# my sexless marriage turned around



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

So DH and I newly married. Sexless. You hear a lot of people talking about HD and LD. I was never LD a day in my life. I had just lost respect for him. He was completely careless of my feelings and was lazy. I did ALL the housework. All the financials, including responding to overdrafts from his reckless spending. He did not spend time with me, preferring video games or his workshop. 

When we were first dating, he was romantic, attentive, clever, wonderful. Now he wants to play video games all night. When we moved in together it started. I thought, we will discuss it. We will work through it.

I would talk to him, talk to him, talk to him. He did not want to change. So he ignored me.

After 2 years of nothing, I thought do I really want to live the rest of my life, have children with THIS? Lucky for us I had my epiphany before kids!

I did not stop having sex with him to punish him! I stopped having sex with him because I wanted to have sex with a MAN, not some irresponsible little boy who wants me to do everything. 

He started with the why aren't we having sex, we never have sex whiny stuff you see here. I told him. And here is where he differed from what I see all the time is that _he listened_. I don't know what affects these wives' ability to respect their man. But that is what it is about. And DH saw that his actions were affecting my ability to respect him AS A MAN. He also was able, without defensiveness, to BE the kind of man I could respect.

And he did it!


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I hear alot of women talk about this "respect" thing all the time and I don't buy it. Women invision this MAN who is all powerful has endless money, solves all problems and is evinceable. Then, when you discover your man, and in fact every man, is not like this (and is actually human), boy, that really pisses you off. 

He probably didn't want sex with you because of something you were doing. Ever consider that?? But then your marriage became sexless because you stopped having sex with him. That was your decision. Was that something a "respectful" wife would do? I would say probably not. He started asking you why there was no sex anymore, you told him and obviously he must have starting doing what you wanted. Now if you would have told him what you wanted before you started withholding, you would have saved both of you alot of grief. It doesn't matter why you started withholding whether it's respect or what ever, when you stopped withholding, things got better. This isn't rocket science here.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I made about three times more money than he did. So it could not be that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

You clearly did not read the story. He DID want sex with me!


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Your story highlights the difference in how men and women view sex. For men, sex is like being hungry. The desire to eat comes on a regular basis regardless of what is going on in his life. It's not like that for women (in general). It's more like a hobby or something. There are a lot of requirements and preconditions which need to be met for the desire for sex to even be created in the first place.

Your situation is one where the solution is clear-cut. If a man is out of work, lazy, messy, crude, rude, etc., those are objectively obvious reasons why a woman wouldn't want to have sex with him. He should change because it's not reasonable to do those things in a relationship. But many, many times that's not the case. The man bends over backwards trying to make his wife happy and it doesn't help. The wife doesn't want to have sex and doesn't even care to try to fix it.

I'm glad it worked out in your case and that he was receptive to your needs.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Later, after kid #1, I lost interest. I was not uncaring. I was just a clueless new mum. Sex was rare and it sucked. This is the instance where HIS action cause me REaction.

I was doing duty sex, and as little as I could get away with. I wasn't TRYING to be mean. But I am a mum, right? Doesn't baby come first? Left to me, I would bet a dollar that I would have started hating it, and it would have gotten rarer and rarer.

He sent the baby to his folks and took me to a private little restaurant to talk. He took my hand and looked me in the eye and said. I love you. But I am not staying in this marriage this way. I don't grudging sex. I want my wife back. We laughed about some funny, sexy stories. 

And he said, here's the goal. I don't want o be HAVING sex. I want to be LOVING sex. I want you to be LOVING sex. Can we work together to make that happen?

And we did!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wilson said:


> Your story highlights the difference in how men and women view sex. For men, sex is like being hungry. The desire to eat comes on a regular basis regardless of what is going on in his life. It's not like that for women (in general). It's more like a hobby or something. There are a lot of requirements and preconditions which need to be met for the desire for sex to even be created in the first place.
> 
> Your situation is one where the solution is clear-cut. If a man is out of work, lazy, messy, crude, rude, etc., those are objectively obvious reasons why a woman wouldn't want to have sex with him.


He was not really being rude and did not think of himself as lazy. He was young and stupid. He needed a wake up call.




> He should change because it's not reasonable to do those things in a relationship.


How well do you suppose that REALLY works?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

wilson said:


> It's not like that for women (in general). It's more like a hobby or something. There are *a lot of requirements and preconditions which need to be met for the desire for sex to even be created in the first place.*



Not true.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> He was not really being rude and did not think of himself as lazy. He was young and stupid. He needed a wake up call.
> 
> How well do you suppose that REALLY works?


I wasn't talking about your H in particular with those traits. Those are things which no one in a relationship should do. If someone is not contributing to the running of the household, they're living in, that's rude regardless of whether you're having sex with them. From an objective viewpoint, they should contribute to the household. Not just so they can get sex, but because it's the reasonable thing to do.

I wish every situation was a simple as yours. If was just a matter of pay more attention and do more around the house, everyone would be having a great sex life.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> He did not spend time with me, preferring video games or his workshop.
> 
> When we were first dating, he was romantic, attentive, clever, wonderful. Now he wants to play video games all night. When we moved in together it started. I thought, we will discuss it. We will work through it.


It doesn't sound to me that he wanted sex here?? What am I missing?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wilson said:


> I wasn't talking about your H in particular with those traits. Those are things which no one in a relationship should do. If someone is not contributing to the running of the household, they're living in, that's rude regardless of whether you're having sex with them. From an objective viewpoint, they should contribute to the household. Not just so they can get sex, but because it's the reasonable thing to do.
> 
> I wish every situation was a simple as yours. If was just a matter of pay more attention and do more around the house, everyone would be having a great sex life.


It doesn't matter. The matter is, figure out how to be a MAN worthy of respect in your woman's eyes. And then be that. If you need NNMG, then do that. 

A little pro tip, demanding and begging and asserting your contractual rights are real horny killers.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wilson said:


> For men, sex is like being hungry. The desire to eat comes on a regular basis regardless of what is going on in his life. There are a lot of requirements and preconditions which need to be met for the desire for sex to even be created in the first place.



Sounds like you want someone to show up and feed you. REALLY unsexy.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> I hear alot of women talk about this "respect" thing all the time and I don't buy it. Women invision this MAN who is all powerful has endless money, solves all problems and is evinceable. Then, when you discover your man, and in fact every man, is not like this (and is actually human), boy, that really pisses you off.


I can see this happens for women who have been spoiled their whole lives and never had to work for what they received. (ETA:I don't feel this fits your situation,NobodySpecial.)

We can't forget that there are women who know the value of hard work and appreciate a man for all of his qualities and not just for how many dollars he can give. I mean,my husband isn't rich,he doesn't solve all problems and he's certainly not invincible. He's soft.He's sweet.He's awkward and funny and shy. He dresses like a little old man and he hates working out. He's completely human and he's worthy of my respect. 
Some men really aren't worthy of respect. Same with some women. I think that's up to the individual to decide without being burdened with judgments from people who aren't living their life.

It's unfortunate when we are surrounded by bad people and let them taint our view of an entire gender.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> I hear alot of women talk about this "respect" thing all the time and I don't buy it. Women invision this MAN who is all powerful has endless money, solves all problems and is evinceable. Then, when you discover your man, and in fact every man, is not like this (and is actually human), boy, that really pisses you off.
> 
> He probably didn't want sex with you because of something you were doing. Ever consider that?? But then your marriage became sexless because you stopped having sex with him. That was your decision. Was that something a "respectful" wife would do? I would say probably not. He started asking you why there was no sex anymore, you told him and obviously he must have starting doing what you wanted. Now if you would have told him what you wanted before you started withholding, you would have saved both of you alot of grief. It doesn't matter why you started withholding whether it's respect or what ever, when you stopped withholding, things got better. This isn't rocket science here.


If you married a jerk, you married a jerk. I can't understand why a lot of guys want to "get" their jerk wives to have sex with them.

But I would bet a dollar that there are plenty of men who make that reason up rather than look at the REAL root cause.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

wilson said:


> It's not like that for women (in general). It's more like a hobby or something. There are a lot of requirements and preconditions which need to be met for the desire for sex to even be created in the first place.


True...or at least this is almost word for word what our MC said. Good job Mr. Wilson!


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> If you married a jerk, you married a jerk. I can't understand why a lot of guys want to "get" their jerk wives to have sex with them.
> 
> But I would bet a dollar that there are plenty of men who make that reason up rather than look at the REAL root cause.


Well for me, as I have been saying over and over, it's because how much I would stand to lose in a divorce. Instead of losing, my house, my children, my family, my career and all my life savings...I'm trying desparately to save our marriage. 

Root cause...now that's an easy one, oh and you lose your dollar to BTW. She wants a marriage where she can be lazy, do nothing, not work, have everything handed to her and not be bothered for sex (LD) or by the kids and spend money on whatever she wants without to ever have to justify it. I can't give that to her. Why should I? I want her to be willing to do her part and that will never happen.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> Well for me, as I have been saying over and over, it's because how much I would stand to lose in a divorce. Instead of losing, my house, my children, my family, my career and all my life savings...I'm trying desparately to save our marriage.
> 
> Root cause...now that's an easy one, oh and you lose your dollar to BTW. She wants a marriage where she can be lazy, do nothing, not work, have everything handed to her and not be bothered for sex (LD) or by the kids and spend money on whatever she wants without to ever have to justify it. I can't give that to her. Why should I? I want her to be willing to do her part and that will never happen.


And you WANT to have sex with this person?

I will keep my dollar, thanks. I said plenty. Not you.

I never can help wondering if the wife wouldn't have a completely different song to sing if SHE were here.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I can never understand the my marriage is COMPLETELY dysfunctional. How do I get sex? You don't. Duh.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Congrats your hubby jumped through hoops for sex....

Good hubby... come here boy

You neglected your vows while neglecting him...thats *punishment* in my book.

No matter how you "spin" it

Sex is not a form of barter and shows how you as a female value sex

Same as a man stopping talking about anything to his wife..and waiting for her to ask whats wrong.

Its all wrong.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Congrats your hubby jumped through hoops for sex....
> 
> Good hubby... come here boy
> 
> ...


IOW, no matter how much a woman wants to have sex, no matter what she does, if the sex isn't there, it's automatically her fault... because her chromosomes are XX rather than XY. GMAFB  :sleeping:


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> IOW, no matter how much a woman wants to have sex, no matter what she does, if the sex isn't there, it's automatically her fault... because her chromosomes are XX rather than XY. GMAFB  :sleeping:


Not in every case but in a majority of cases.

you go into any marriage and take a survey....

*If you had your way would their be more or less sex between you and your spouse?*

What do you think the answer would be? By gender?

Be realistic.

What OP did was *withhold sex* (where he had no other recourse within the vows) UNTIL he complied...that is wrong. That is simply coercion. I'll take my ball if you don't play by my rules.

the sexless marriage aspect was ALL of OP's creation.

YES OP's hubby was wrong too...but sex should have never been the bargaining chip. OP coerced him into behaving a certain way to get a basic of what marriage "should' entail. OP Are you happy you persuaded him?

Your premise that a sexless marriage turned around is flawed...you chose a sexless marrige becuse you control the keys to the kingdom.

PS love how all the women of TAM like the OP.... since she trained her hubby for sex.
Women love trained hubbys...here boy


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Men are from Mars and so on....

You say you lost respect for him and it wasn't a punishment. I acknowledge that. But to a man your reasons for witholding sex does not matter. It still is received as a punishment.

When I spank my child I can do it out of love or frustration. It doesn't matter to her what my motivations are, only that she is being punished.

And nice of you to label genuinely heartfelt pouring out of emotion on this forum as "whining". I'll be sure never to share my feelings on this subject again for fear of being labelled a little b*tch.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> PS love how all the women of TAM like the OP.... since she trained her hubby for sex.
> Women love trained hubbys...here boy


So, you're saying Mrs. T2 has trained you, then... You stop begging for sex and you do all else she requests. Fetch, T2, fetch! 

*just keeping with the trained dog analogy* See how stupid that sounds? My husband isn't "trained". Please, if he were trained, he'd be steam cleaning our carpets rather than me doing it. And why do I do it? Because his back is worse than mine and my hip and knee combined. If I were into training men to jump through hoops, I'd passive-aggressively get him to do it, or anything else I want. But I don't. If I wanted a trained dog, I'd buy one... wait, I bought two. So, no, women don't like lap dogs any more than men like b!tching about their wives... oh, wait... was that a bad comparison? Men like b!tching about their wives, don't they...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> So, you're saying Mrs. T2 has trained you, then... You stop begging for sex and you do all else she requests. Fetch, T2, fetch!
> 
> *just keeping with the trained dog analogy* See how stupid that sounds? My husband isn't "trained". Please, if he were trained, he'd be steam cleaning our carpets rather than me doing it. And why do I do it? Because his back is worse than mine and my hip and knee combined. If I were into training men to jump through hoops, I'd passive-aggressively get him to do it, or anything else I want. But I don't. If I wanted a trained dog, I'd buy one... wait, I bought two. So, no, women don't like lap dogs any more than men like b!tching about their wives... oh, wait... was that a bad comparison? Men like b!tching about their wives, don't they...
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


When the woman deserves it yes. Lots of men here in the very same boat.

Women do barter with sex see it over and over here at TAM but its spun into something that does not sound like extortion or coercion.

Why do women get away with it.... because *they ca**n* and men are too loyal to the wife who withholds sex and more importantly his family.

I do what I want my wife has no say in that... and she gets less because of the situation she made her bed now lie in it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Responding to the ps,I liked her post Bc I'm happy she's getting laid. Don't Assume you know the motivation when someone likes a comment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> When the woman deserves it yes.


Who are you to say the woman deserves it, if we are only hearing one side of the story? Oh, right... woman = evil = wrong, no matter what. I forgot.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Lots of (wo)men here in the very same boat.
> 
> Women (men) do barter with sex see it over and over here at TAM but its spun into something that does not sound like extortion or coercion (actually, for men, it seems the wife has done something that made him not want sex with her, according to you...so, pretty much the same thing).
> 
> Why do women (men) get away with it.... because they can and (wo)men are too loyal to the wife (husband) who withholds sex and more importantly his (her) family.


ftfy


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Who are you to say the woman deserves it, if we are only hearing one side of the story? Oh, right... woman = evil = wrong, no matter what. I forgot.
> 
> 
> 
> ftfy


Not all women just those who use sex a a bartering chip in marriage...know any of those?

I do. many can be found right here.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Responding to the ps,I liked her post Bc I'm happy she's getting laid. Don't Assume you know the motivation when someone likes a comment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You happy that she decided to stop withholding?

Got it

Wait that makes no sense....par for the course


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Not all women just those who use sex a a bartering chip in marriage...*know any of those?*
> 
> I do. many can be found right here.


I do! And I know many more who get pissed off when sex is withheld from them. And many of those are NOT found right here on TAM.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Wait that makes no sense....par for the course


Par for the course that what a woman is saying on TAM makes no sense to you? Why, yes, yes it is...


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

A woman *should not* feel obligated to have sex if her H is doing things that are objectively disrespectful. If he's treating her like a maid, bank account, nanny, and escort, then she's not going to love him and she shouldn't be forced to have sex without love. She should not be made to feel guilty that she doesn't want to have sex when her H is not acting in a loving manner.

But when her H is treating her respectively and in a loving manner, then she does have a responsibility to try to fix the problem. Because she loves him back, she should make an effort to make him happy. She shouldn't create endless excuses or hoops for him jump through. At some point she needs to work to find a reasonable solution. Otherwise, her love comes into question if she's not motivated to make her partner happy.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

wilson said:


> A woman *should not* feel obligated to have sex if her H is doing things that are objectively disrespectful. If he's treating her like a maid, bank account, nanny, and escort, then she's not going to love him and she shouldn't be forced to have sex without love. She should not be made to feel guilty that she doesn't want to have sex when her H is not acting in a loving manner.
> 
> But when her H is treating her respectively and in a loving manner, then she does have a responsibility to try to fix the problem. Because she loves him back, she should make an effort to make him happy. She shouldn't create endless excuses or hoops for him jump through. At some point she needs to work to find a reasonable solution. Otherwise, her love comes into question if she's not motivated to make her partner happy.


Spot on but doesn't make one IOTA of difference to the average withholding wife...and who is going to call her out? Because by all outward appearances her marriage is functioning.

Where I take exception with OP's method is she did not exhaust communication rather she cut her own husband off....in essence breaking her vows

And the title gets me she caused the sexless marriage in the first place....now she wants kudos


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Spot on but doesn't make one IOTA of difference to the average withholding wife...and who is going to call her out? Because by all outward appearances her marriage is functioning.
> 
> *Where I take exception with OP's method is she did not exhaust communication rather she cut her own husband off....in essence breaking her vows
> 
> And the title gets me she caused the sexless marriage in the first place....now she wants kudos*


Like I said, it's all her fault, in your eyes, T2. Read it again.




NobodySpecial said:


> So DH and I newly married. Sexless. You hear a lot of people talking about HD and LD. I was never LD a day in my life. I had just lost respect for him. He was completely careless of my feelings and was lazy. *I did ALL the housework*. *All the financials, including responding to overdrafts from his reckless spending. He did not spend time with me*, preferring video games or his workshop.
> 
> When we were first dating, he was romantic, attentive, clever, wonderful. Now he wants to play video games all night. When we moved in together it started. *I thought, we will discuss it. We will work through it.*
> 
> ...


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> You happy that she decided to stop withholding?
> 
> Got it
> 
> Wait that makes no sense....par for the course


You make no sense. We should be happy for folks with improved relationships rather than cutting them down. Her husband is happy.She is happy. Why pour crap all over that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> You make no sense. We should be happy for folks with improved relationships rather than cutting them down. Her husband is happy.She is happy. Why pour crap all over that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She caused it so its like a bank robber returning the loot and expecting to be lifted on a a pedestal rather than thrown in jail.

OP was wrong . We see right through her Epiphany.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

How did she cause it? They both caused it.together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> How did she cause it? They both caused it.together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No she used sex to affect change in him...hitting him where it hurts.

Before they were just dysfunctional now she has a trained puppy tagging around and things are "good"

Its really no different than a guy filing for divorce and then having the wife spread her legs...still coercion.

OP's husband probably deep down knows his wifes motives.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Spot on but doesn't make one IOTA of difference to the average withholding wife...and who is going to call her out? Because by all outward appearances her marriage is functioning.
> 
> Where I take exception with OP's method is she did not exhaust communication rather she cut her own husband off....in essence breaking her vows


You missed the sentence about my speaking with him about it? A lot?



> And the title gets me she caused the sexless marriage in the first place....now she wants kudos


Who cares? It got fixed. And neither of us cared to blame the other. 

I don't see much hope for long term sexual satisfaction for you. I would recommend serial monogamy. Have some sex. Until she figures out your not much of a man. And it repeats.

Because you know what? That is what it takes to light a woman's fire. A man. And no man is going to whine about how a woman OUGHT to HAVE sex. He is going to make it happen. Or not.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Ok T2,I don't have the energy to argue w you,it's a waste.

Have a really nice holiday weekend...I know I will
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> You missed the sentence about my speaking with him about it? A lot?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure just like the LIST you gave your boy-husband at least he can read...what a man.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Ok T2,I don't have the energy to argue w you,it's a waste.
> 
> Have a really nice holiday weekend...I know I will
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you sure?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maybe there is a SadSam or a lurker who can make use of my story. T2 is a bitter person. And too small to learn anything useful. Which is way sadder than SadSam.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I think there are lot of women who are in your position. They don't want to have sex with their husband because of how their husband treats them or they don't respect them. Women more than men tie how they feel emotionally about their husband to having sex with them. It's great your husband listened to you and changed. Now, he gets sex and you respect him, you both win.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Are you sure?


Lol why wouldn't I be sure? I've already had great sex w my sweet husband when he came home and now I'm making dinner...we'll eat and talk. Then we'll snuggle and watch a movie. Sounds really nice at least to me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a good story. And what you did was open, honest and fair. 

As for T2 - half the time he claims that he's perfectly happy with his situation because he has adjusted - LMAO.

And the other half he bitterly attacks individual women and women as a group. Not exactly what you'd expect from a happy camper.



QUOTE=NobodySpecial;9469570]Maybe there is a SadSam or a lurker who can make use of my story. T2 is a bitter person. And too small to learn anything useful. Which is way sadder than SadSam.[/QUOTE]


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Are you sure?


I'd guess she is more certain than you are of your own. Which chore will you be doing this weekend, T2? Back massages? Or dishes? :rofl:


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> She caused it so its like a bank robber returning the loot and expecting to be lifted on a a pedestal rather than thrown in jail.
> 
> OP was wrong . *We see right through her Epiphany.*


You see.... nothing. Clean your glasses.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Sure just like the LIST you gave your boy-husband at least he can read...


To be fair, he was a boy husband. As I was a girl. We married young. Good thing we grew up together!



> what a man.


What do you mean? Like you? How is that working out for you?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> I'd guess she is more certain than you are of your own. Which chore will you be doing this weekend, T2? Back massages? Or dishes? :rofl:


I'll do what I want.

What will you all do? Oh don't worry I know.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> You see.... noting. Clean your glasses.


Interestingly what he does not see is too people who regularly go to work exhausted from screwing. But I am quite sure he is right. Which is why it is working so well for him.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I'll do what I want.
> 
> What will you all do? Oh don't worry I know.


*What will I do? Why, get my husband to do household chores with the offer of sex, of coure. And then, I'l just withhold it because, that's what we women do!* 


Now, for real, I am hoping we will have sex at least once this weekend. Only if he's up to it, though. Can only docertain positions if one or both of us is hurting. So, hoping the pain stays away for a bit. Oh, that's not what you thought, huh? Well, how about the birthday party we have planned for our youngest child. Does that fit better? No? Ok, well, then, see the first part of my post. That should jive with your expectations.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Not in every case but in a majority of cases.
> 
> you go into any marriage and take a survey....
> 
> *If you had your way would their be more or less sex between you and your spouse?*


For me, more. Now.




> What do you think the answer would be? By gender?
> 
> Be realistic.
> 
> ...


I was not bargaining. I was repulsed. Sound familiar?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> I hear alot of women talk about this "respect" thing all the time and I don't buy it. Women invision this MAN who is all powerful has endless money, solves all problems and is evinceable. Then, when you discover your man, and in fact every man, is not like this (and is actually human), boy, that really pisses you off.
> 
> He probably didn't want sex with you because of something you were doing. Ever consider that?? But then your marriage became sexless because you stopped having sex with him. That was your decision. Was that something a "respectful" wife would do? I would say probably not. He started asking you why there was no sex anymore, you told him and obviously he must have starting doing what you wanted. *Now if you would have told him what you wanted before you started withholding, you would have saved both of you alot of grief*. It doesn't matter why you started withholding whether it's respect or what ever, when you stopped withholding, things got better. This isn't rocket science here.


I confess that I am blown away by some of the replies on this thread. Did you read the post? Two YEARS. Two YEARS.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> jb02157 said:
> 
> 
> > I hear alot of women talk about this "respect" thing all the time and I don't buy it. Women invision this MAN who is all powerful has endless money, solves all problems and is evinceable. Then, when you discover your man, and in fact every man, is not like this (and is actually human), boy, that really pisses you off.
> ...


Yea... unfortunately, not surprising. Once some see the words "I stopped having sex", they ignore the rest of the post. And, if HE had been withholding, you are automatically wrong... because you are a woman, therefore you do not like sex. /sarcasm

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I confess that I am blown away by some of the replies on this thread. Did you read the post? Two YEARS. Two YEARS.


Still not impressed.... you chose to withold...chose to withold.

That is a break in your vows.

"To have and to hold" congrats

Its ok many of your gender seems preconditioned to it.

Again not placing blame just stating the obvious.

Maybe you should now write a book.... for all sexless people to benefit from.

StOP SEX THEN GIVE A LIST THEN HAVE SEX...a sexless life turned


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > I confess that I am blown away by some of the replies on this thread. Did you read the post? Two YEARS. Two YEARS.
> ...


You mean like your blog about your failed plan?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> You mean like your blog about your failed plan?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_



The uncompleted blog..YES


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

T2, the reason you're really not impressed is because she actually did something to fix the dynamic in her marriage. Meanwhile, you wallow in self pity, loathing all women who disagree with your premise (which would actually be all women). You pretend to be gsppy, even content, while you are merely presenting a dead shell, a facade. I used to pity you. Now, I don't. You like your dynamic. It gives you a reason to spew your nonsense to everyone else, trying to bring them down.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Maricha75 said:
> 
> 
> > You mean like your blog about your failed plan?
> ...


You would have to be doing something in order to complete it.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Still not impressed.... you chose to withold...chose to withold.
> 
> That is a break in your vows.


I don't remember having that in my vows. Strange that.

Good luck to you!


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Yeah, I can't say I vowed to keep having sex with my husband even if he was being a massive jerk for years.

If he treated me badly, I wouldn't have sex with him. Because I wouldn't want to and I wouldn't be attracted to him.

Fortunately, he treats me very well, I love him and am attracted to him and have sex with him all the time. Twice so far this week and at least twice more before the weekend is over.


----------



## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Congrats your hubby jumped through hoops for sex....
> 
> Good hubby... come here boy
> 
> ...


that was my thought too


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Maybe the thread title should be 'crappy husband turned around' I mean it is a little weird to be taking credit for turning around a situation (sexless marriage) that you chose to be in.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Maybe the thread title should be 'crappy husband turned around' I mean it is a little weird to be taking credit for turning around a situation (sexless marriage) that you chose to be in.


I wonder how many people COULD make themselves and their spouses happy and build an awesome life if they stopped the blame game and got to work.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how many people COULD make themselves and their spouses happy and build an awesome life if they stopped the blame game and got to work.


The answer to that is MANY in lieu of any medical issues. Most of these situations are resentment/blame.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

What an awesome concept! I get to be married on the days I feel like it, but only if my wife meets all my expectations! If I felt like going to work, I could. If I wanted to sit it out for a few months, that'd be cool and I could justify it by saying my wife wasn't making me happy. There would be no obligation, expectations, or commitments. We both could just do whatever we felt like as the mood struck us. Today I could be a husband, tomorrow, maybe I'd be a cowboy, next week, maybe I'd play at being a husband again.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

wilson said:


> I wasn't talking about your H in particular with those traits. Those are things which no one in a relationship should do. If someone is not contributing to the running of the household, they're living in, that's rude regardless of whether you're having sex with them. From an objective viewpoint, they should contribute to the household. Not just so they can get sex, but because it's the reasonable thing to do.
> 
> I wish every situation was a simple as yours. If was just a matter of pay more attention and do more around the house, everyone would be having a great sex life.


That's not really what it was. He LISTENED. He strove to understand me and what my PoV was. If had just picked up a broom for a day, that would have been useless.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

sinnister said:


> Men are from Mars and so on....
> 
> You say you lost respect for him and it wasn't a punishment. I acknowledge that. But to a man your reasons for witholding sex does not matter. It still is received as a punishment.


He didn't. Why is that? Maybe because I am not his mother. I cannot punish him. I can only choose my own behavior.



> When I spank my child I can do it out of love or frustration. It doesn't matter to her what my motivations are, only that she is being punished.


Well that is just sad. If your child does not know that your actions are driven by a desire for her to grow up a good person, then you are failing at parenting.



> And nice of you to label genuinely heartfelt pouring out of emotion on this forum as "whining". I'll be sure never to share my feelings on this subject again for fear of being labelled a little b*tch.


When I started breaking the housework up into what I would do and what I wouldn't do, he complained that I was treating him like a child. I was like yah if the shoe fits. I am not your mother nor your housekeeper. You want to be treated like a man? Be one. And he did.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I am laughing my head off. I just mentioned this thread to DH. I said "Sex in marriage comes up a lot." He replied "Sex in marriage is AWESOME." I really must be some evil *****. Because he is so unhappy and deprived.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am laughing my head off. I just mentioned this thread to DH. I said "Sex in marriage comes up a lot." He replied "Sex in marriage is AWESOME." I really must be some evil *****. Because he is so unhappy and deprived.


He has learned that if he displeases you, he gets cut off. Just wondering over here. During the period you abandoned your sexual vows to him, what would have been your reaction if he had an affair? The offense would be the same. If my wife doesn't listen to me, am I morally free to have an affair but still hang around collecting whatever alleged benefits of marriage there might be?


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

jb02157 said:


> Well for me, as I have been saying over and over, it's because how much I would stand to lose in a divorce. Instead of losing, my house, my children, my family, my career and all my life savings...I'm trying desparately to save our marriage.


This is exactly where I am. I don't want to lose all those things. We have been together 30 years and have built up a lot of 'things'. And I love my wife. But it is getting tougher and tougher to live without LOVE from her. 

I turned 50, and maybe it is part of a 'midlife' crisis. But I am feeling that these 'things' that I have been holding onto aren't that important compared to being happy.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> He has learned that if he displeases you, he gets cut off. Just wondering over here. During the period you abandoned your sexual vows to him, what would have been your reaction if he had an affair? The offense would be the same. If my wife doesn't listen to me, am I morally free to have an affair but still hang around collecting whatever alleged benefits of marriage there might be?


I made no sexual vows to him. Nor did he to me. Had he chosen to leave me, he would have been well within his rights. Instead he chose to fix it. The only marital benefit we ever sought was happiness with each other. The rest is just details. Taxes? Money? At that time both of us would have been better off alone.

His perspective of that time is also that I was trying to change him. And I was. Make him be some vision I had of "husband". It was the cause of his resistance to listening to me. I also finally heard him as well. Making his workshop time a priority. Allowing him to choose his degree of house hold cleanliness standards. Etc..


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> This is exactly where I am. I don't want to lose all those things. We have been together 30 years and have built up a lot of 'things'. And I love my wife. But it is getting tougher and tougher to live without LOVE from her.
> 
> I turned 50, and maybe it is part of a 'midlife' crisis. But I am feeling that these 'things' that I have been holding onto aren't that important compared to being happy.


I can assure you you can still be happy in your current scenario.
It takes time.

But what you cannot rationalize is the imbalance and if you cannot live with that then you must end it.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> This is exactly where I am. I don't want to lose all those things. We have been together 30 years and have built up a lot of 'things'. And I love my wife. But it is getting tougher and tougher to live without LOVE from her.
> 
> I turned 50, and maybe it is part of a 'midlife' crisis. But I am feeling that these 'things' that I have been holding onto aren't that important compared to being happy.


I can assure you you can still be happy in your current scenario.
It takes time.

But what you cannot rationalize is the imbalance and if you cannot live with that then you must end it.

Here's the deal:

If you love your wive you want her to be happy...right?
If she is happy without sex with you... that fulfills the above
So why are you complaining...shes happy

If she has sex with you that makes her sad
You don't want your wife sad
So why are you complaining

You don't want to coerce sex from your wife
No one wants duty sex
So why are you complaining...by not having sex you avoid her sadness and or coercion

When you married her you said you'd love her regardless of what life brings...be happy

So whats the problem?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> This is exactly where I am. I don't want to lose all those things. We have been together 30 years and have built up a lot of 'things'. And I love my wife. But it is getting tougher and tougher to live without LOVE from her.
> 
> I turned 50, and maybe it is part of a 'midlife' crisis. But I am feeling that these 'things' that I have been holding onto aren't that important compared to being happy.


What would you lose? Money? Your kids? You don't have to lose your kids in a divorce. Does money make you happy?

Even when our first child was a baby, DH made it clear that he was NOT living the next 20 years the way we were. It is not that I should not have come to this conclusion on my own. It is not that I only wanted to care for him when met with an ultimatum. It is that people are stupid creatures and sometimes need a wake up call, a dope slap. Something that communicates HEY What is REALLY important to you. If the answer, as many of these posters indicate, what is important to their wives is their money, it is on them for accepting that. They can only choose their own behavior. As can you.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> What would you lose? Money? Your kids? You don't have to lose your kids in a divorce. Does money make you happy?
> 
> Even when our first child was a baby, DH made it clear that he was NOT living the next 20 years the way we were. It is not that I should not have come to this conclusion on my own. It is not that I only wanted to care for him when met with an ultimatum. It is that people are stupid creatures and sometimes need a wake up call, a dope slap. Something that communicates HEY What is REALLY important to you. If the answer, as many of these posters indicate, what is important to their wives is their money, it is on them for accepting that. They can only choose their own behavior. As can you.


They can chose to dope slap... err coerce their spouse by *withholding sex*

You showed him how much you really love him...by torturing him BAD COP
Now providing the sex he wants GOOD COP

Again you need to write a marriage book... your method worked


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> He didn't. Why is that? Maybe because I am not his mother. I cannot punish him. I can only choose my own behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said...men are from mars....

You don't get my point of view and that's fine. I thoroughly understand yours. 

You say he wasn't acting like the man you wanted him to be so you didnt have attraction for him, therefore sex was off the table.
I get it. I really do.

But you don't get men. And what's worse is you're not even TRYING to understand us. You've dismissed everything I said.

And since when does a 6 year old give a flying F why they got spanked? Their crying BECAUSE they got spanked not because they did something wrong. Damn...are we just arguing for the sake of arguing on these forums now?

Us against them. Men against women? Going around in circles with absolutely no attempt for a broader understanding of positions?

I understand yours. It's built on a foundation of logic. Cause and effect. His lack of performance around the house led to your lack of desire. I'm here to tell you that in matters of intimacy that logic doesn't matter to a guy. Our loins burn pretty much daily for it. It sometimes controls our better judgement and our rational thought.

So denying a man because he wouldn't do his fair share around the house will almost always result in a man either getting extremely pissed off or getting his needs met elsewhere. I'm not being a jerk by saying this. I really want any women who may read my post to see truth for what it is. Not what some people think it "should" be.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Housekeeping is NOT in the vows

Mutually acceptable sex is implied in the union....and its at will... divorce is an option

Big difference when there is *no other outlet *and no porn is not the same.

You could always pay a maid service rather than torturing the poor guy to get YOUR WAY

Look in the mirror...you dictated your way and now you are claiming success...we see the real story


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> They can chose to dope slap... err coerce their spouse by *withholding sex*
> 
> You showed him how much you really love him...by torturing him BAD COP
> Now providing the sex he wants GOOD COP
> ...


Interestingly if we had not done what we had done, we would have been within a year. If he had not resisted my attempts to change him, if had turned in Mr Nice Guy, doing by bidding, well we all know where that ends up. If he had continued to put sexual requirements on me without stepping up, I was prepared to leave him. That is where we were. He is very thankful that we woke up, grew up, together.

I don't think 15 years of mind blowing sex is torture. But he would have thought 1 of duty sex was. I love this man.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Interestingly if we had not done what we had done, we would have been within a year. If he had not resisted my attempts to change him, if had turned in Mr Nice Guy, doing by bidding, well we all know where that ends up. If he had continued to put sexual requirements on me without stepping up, I was prepared to leave him. That is where we were. He is very thankful that we woke up, grew up, together.
> 
> I don't think 15 years of mind blowing sex is torture. But he would have thought 1 of duty sex was. I love this man.


Divorce was probably his best option you did him no favors..you purposely made his life hell. IS that love?

NOw that he jumped through hoops you are good? Damage has been done.

I would dance a jig if my wife came up and said I want a divorce..that absolves me from doing it
Its her deal not mine

Coercion is not a good option. Yet you went there.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

sinnister said:


> Like I said...men are from mars....
> 
> You don't get my point of view and that's fine. I thoroughly understand yours.
> 
> ...


It's not understanding that is lacking. It is agreement. I have evidence in my life that not all men react they way you are saying. I am saying that that reaction been shown on this board to be a massive attraction killer. You can choose your actions. 



> And since when does a 6 year old give a flying F why they got spanked? Their crying BECAUSE they got spanked not because they did something wrong. Damn...are we just arguing for the sake of arguing on these forums now?


I don't know. Are we? I told my story. You brought up children and spanking/punishing. And I think it speaks to a pretty significant outlook difference. If your kids don't know why you are punishing them, it doesn't seem to me to be likely to be very effective. 



> Us against them. Men against women? Going around in circles with absolutely no attempt for a broader understanding of positions?


I understand my husband's position. I actually understand yours. I don't think it is going to be very effective at getting you what you want.



> I understand yours. It's built on a foundation of logic. Cause and effect. His lack of performance around the house led to your lack of desire.


Well I guess we are just arguing for the sake of arguing, aren't we because that is not what I said in the least.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Divorce was probably his best option you did him no favors..you purposely made his life hell. IS that love?


He did not think his life was hell. He thought his marriage was broken. And worth fixing. He CERTAINLY has not been in hell for the last 15 years.



> NOw that he jumped through hoops you are good? Damage has been done.


What damage is that that we are supposedly experiencing?


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> It's not understanding that is lacking. It is agreement. I have evidence in my life that not all men react they way you are saying. I am saying that that reaction been shown on this board to be a massive attraction killer. You can choose your actions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What she is saying is you need to be a puppy dog to have success a quick snap on the nose with a news paper makes a trained hubby.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> He did not think his life was hell. He thought his marriage was broken. And worth fixing. He CERTAINLY has not been in hell for the last 15 years.
> 
> 
> What damage is that that we are supposedly experiencing?


YOU


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> What she is saying is you need to be a puppy dog to have success a quick snap on the nose with a news paper makes a trained hubby.


You are too funny! My husband is no trained dog.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> You are too funny! My husband is no trained dog.


He's a good boy..come here
Perhaps you prefer Pavlovian rat

Stimulus/repulsion

SEE I don't play those games with my wife..because I'm not a dog or a rat
I'll hand it too you your demands were specific that's better than nebulous...good master


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> It's not understanding that is lacking. It is agreement. I have evidence in my life that not all men react they way you are saying. I am saying that that reaction been shown on this board to be a massive attraction killer. You can choose your actions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NS...I'm telling you right now as God is my witness that if your husband truly understands what went down in your relationship, and why it went down then his resentment for you is smoldering beneath the surface. You don't see it now, you may not see next year...but it will rise to the top. Anybody who gets denied a necessity for what they perceive to be a bad reason will be resentful.

About your last statement. You're absolutely correct. Nothing I have or ever will do will be successful. Witholding is not about chores. It's not about emotional connection. It's about redistribution of power. I understand that well.

He has power by not performing to your requirements. You reclaim the power by not providing what he requires. Female/male interaction with intimacy would be fascinating if it wasn't so frustrating.

And one more thing I want you and every other person to be absolutely crystal clear on. I am a man. Just because I've voiced my displeasure on multiple occasions doesn't distract from my masculinity. I concede the only thing that diminshes my masculinity is my blind attachment to the sexual manipulation, and my unwillingness to move on and find a woman who won't play that game. But even in that respect, I've made a decision to stay with my babies. So i think even that makes me more of a man.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

sinnister said:


> NS...I'm telling you right now as God is my witness that if your husband truly understands what went down in your relationship, and why it went down then his resentment for you is smoldering beneath the surface. You don't see it now, you may not see next year...but it will rise to the top. Anybody who gets denied a necessity for what they perceive to be a bad reason will be resentful.
> 
> About your last statement. You're absolutely correct. Nothing I have or ever will do will be successful. Witholding is not about chores. It's not about emotional connection. It's about redistribution of power. I understand that well.


I am not sure why you think you know him better than I do. We have been discussing this thread. Yes, crazy We talk. He has no smoldering resentment. And really, would he? We've been having crazy bootie for 15 years.



> He has power by not performing to your requirements. You reclaim the power by not providing what he requires. Female/male interaction with intimacy would be fascinating if it wasn't so frustrating.


Urg. That is what you read? I give up.


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't know him better than you. 

I'm just not playing this ridiculous, politcally correct, "we're all the same" game anymore. Men are different than women. We can honor and respect are differences but failing to acknowledge them does each other a great disservice.

If he has zero resentment towards you, more power to him and I admit I'm wrong. Me being a man, and knowing plenty of them, and also not being afraid to voice my opinion - believe that a man put in that position will be pissed off. Most men may get over it. I have issues with revenge, so me...not so much. 

I feel the men here are largely "playing to the crowd" in regards to a lot of things lately due to complaints on how men are stating their opinions. I'm not going to do it. I don't play to crowds. I piss a lot of people off but c'est la vie. I'm telling the truth about what I've seen and feel so that maybe the next guy coming here to try and fix things realizes that becoming an indentured servent in his own home will do absolutely nothing to fix his sexlessness.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Let's condense the nonsense, shall we?

Unattractive behavior impacted attraction and desire.

Discussed with partner, spouse, regarding behavior and loss of attraction.

Partner gives lip service, or ignores completely. Net result, no real change.

Desire bottoms out. You choose to destabilize the relationship ... via sex ... which gets his attention very quickly.

More discussions, open communication, and this time partner makes an honest effort.

Balance is restored and the walls start shaking once again.

I'd argue that you never fully lost respect, or attraction for your husband.

I have no critique here.

What you did is overall the exact same thing myself and many others recommend to men ... and not unlike in this thread ... the opposite gender gets a wee bit antsy with that recommendation.

Destabilization works. Full stop.

It defines the problem. 

It brute forces communication, where light and love likely failed previously. One way or another if your partner is comfortable with your discomfort and you want to change the dynamic ... then THEY need to be as, if not more uncomfortable than you.

That is the terrain upon which you discover and determine if you have a partner that loves you and wants to work with you, or if you have a hostile roommate that has no interest in forging a loving relationship.

And in my book, you don't have a loving relationship if you ain't joyfully knocking boots on the regular. My book to be clear.

Everybody gets to have their own book.

What does make me wince is the pervasive concept that if a man isn't getting sex from his wife he must have done something, or be doing something wrong. 

And there is another little nugget that I'd like people to keep in mind. The 'whiny' angry, hurt men that post about their wives that want nothing to do with them in the bedroom, if at all? Odds are they still love those women ... else they wouldn't feel hurt, and wouldn't have much to be angry about.

I can appreciate when someone just posts, "Well, have to talked about with her/him?"

And I can't help but shake my head and snicker. If someone has chosen to come to an online marriage forum and post about the pain or trouble of their personal life ... odds are they aren't the one with the issue communicating.

I always love a success story, NobodySpecial.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

And to clarify ... as that is also one of my many gifts as an awesome communicator ...

NS, I REALLY don't think that most of the participants understand that what you are talking about is in the rear-view mirror. They see it as present, or recent.

It isn't clear that you are talking about behavior and circumstances that took place over a decade ago ... but now you and hubs are very functional and happy.

In other words you already have your happy ending ... pun intended.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

The problem at it's crux is you used sex as a weapon to get your way consciously.

You chose to deny him pleasure to get* your way
*
You dictated the outcome

That is not the spirit of marriage.

If he's happy..... he probably is getting laid that came at a steep price some of us are not willing to pay...and likely why we put up with a ridiculous sexless marriage.

There comes a time that the husband is no longer the problem then its on the wife...the difference in your case its was devised and planned congrats for ending his pain.


----------



## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Let's condense the nonsense, shall we?
> 
> Unattractive behavior impacted attraction and desire.
> 
> ...


Destabilization.... does not mean consciously withholding what cannot be replaced... as in sex within marriage

Destabilization can involve any other factor up to divorce but not sex


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> What she is saying is you need to be a puppy dog to have success a quick snap on the nose with a news paper makes a trained hubby.


And yet... how are you and Mrs. T2 doing, again? Success? Yea, that what I thought. Obviously, there is one bitter lapdog here...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
The difference between NS and your wife is that NS is attracted to her H. She wanted a sexual relationship with him and told him what she needed for him to avoid killing her desire - and maybe the marriage as well.

Your W is NOT attracted to you. Likely never was. Clearly has told you that she never enjoyed sex with you. 

But Mrs. T2 found a two part solution:
- A lover who she finds super hot and
- A never ending list of hoops she could make her husband jump through - including demanding that he (T2) not complain about her affair. 

That's a big difference. 

Be honest T2. Your furious at your W, because you desperately jumped through hoops for 4+ years and you are still a full time wanker. 






Trying2figureitout said:


> The problem at it's crux is you used sex as a weapon to get your way consciously.
> 
> You chose to deny him pleasure to get* your way
> *
> ...


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Deejo said:


> In other words you already have your happy ending ... pun intended.


 :rofl:


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trying2figureitout said:


> The problem at it's crux is you used sex as a weapon to get your way consciously.
> 
> You chose to deny him pleasure to get your way
> 
> ...


Dude ... f*ck the spirit of marriage. NOBODY adheres to the 'spirit' of marriage. 
Marriage is an interpersonal, interdependent, social dynamic. The 'spirit' at it's core is MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL outcomes for both parties. Needs met, life goals fulfilled.

If it goes off the rails, then you find a way to get it back on ... or you decide to hop on another train. 
But here is where I agree with you ... if you decide to stay? Then don't b!tch about it.

The woman chose to post about how her marriage became sexless ... and then recovered.

And there is little difference in what she described as to what we generally prescribe; be a loving, present, and collaborative partner. Her husband wasn't ... then changed course and both are now happy, and here is the part people are missing ... they have been for years. 

NobodySpecial is the one that went on marriage boards to 'fix' things years ago ... not her husband.

I have to confess, I REALLY don't like when women do this to men, in terms of posting what worked and then getting hammered for it. And I like it even less when men do it to women.

Did she withhold sex? Yes. Don't think that fact is going to bother her ... don't see why it's bothering anyone else here, in light of the fact that shaking up the marriage worked.


----------



## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

Thread title is misleading. Your marriage is not sexless.
Should be re-titled " I'm with-holding sex until I get ________".


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

Deejo said:


> What does make me wince is the pervasive concept that if a man isn't getting sex from his wife he must have done something, or be doing something wrong.


QFT. I suspect that some of the reaction against NS's success story is that in this and her other posts she neatly packages the most common logical fallacy seen on TAM.

"My married sex life was bad. I did some work and some communicating and now it is good. Therefore, anybody experiencing a bad married sex life must be not working at it or not trying hard enough to communicate."

It is wonderful that back of the cereal box psychology works sometimes, and beneficial to TAM for people to post success stories. But the conclusion that people with more complicated situations need only "get to work" can be seen as condescending and obnoxious.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> The difference between NS and your wife is that NS is attracted to her H. She wanted a sexual relationship with him and told him what she needed for him to avoid killing her desire - and maybe the marriage as well.
> 
> Your W is NOT attracted to you. Likely never was. Clearly has told you that she never enjoyed sex with you.
> ...


Yes like you somehow have a crystal ball....

I am fine with my wife because she isn't wishy washy...if she wants to bail out I would accept that but she doesn't want to...if she did sure I'd be happy. Because I don't particularly like this multi- year snafu.... I realize part is on me I don't try much and I don't expect her to jump my bones one night .

So who extends this her or I ? 

See I balance the blame for my situation and I deal with it again like a man.

I am fine with my situation currently because I in effect chose it on my own. Had nothing to do with her. I accept my situation and realize at any time I can end it if I want to or I can redouble my efforts. My choice not hers.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Big Dude said:


> QFT. I suspect that some of the reaction against NS's success story is that in this and her other posts she neatly packages the most common logical fallacy seen on TAM.
> 
> "My married sex life was bad. I did some work and some communicating and now it is good. Therefore, anybody experiencing a bad married sex life must be not working at it or not trying hard enough to communicate."
> 
> It is wonderful that back of the cereal box psychology works sometimes, and beneficial to TAM for people to post success stories. But the conclusion that people with more complicated situations need only "get to work" can be seen as condescending and obnoxious.


I feel what you mean.

But I also understand that we have to start somewhere, and cover the basics. It can be very easy to project our circumstances into the ever-present gaps that are always going to be in play when all we have to learn about someone is what they choose to type out.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Dude ... f*ck the spirit of marriage. NOBODY adheres to the 'spirit' of marriage.
> Marriage is an interpersonal, interdependent, social dynamic. The 'spirit' at it's core is MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL outcomes for both parties. Needs met, life goals fulfilled.
> 
> If it goes off the rails, then you find a way to get it back on ... or you decide to hop on another train.
> ...



You are off base Deejo are you really believing the words you say? Very PC of you.

She withheld sex consciously..that is WRONG! No matter how you spin it.

She could have hired a maid or cut the power to the house...she went to the sex card like many

And I am not b!tching about my situation so get off that high horse, Iam expressing my findings which get validated everyday here on TAM trying to help guys understand the way the world of sexlessness works.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> And in my book, you don't have a loving relationship if you ain't joyfully knocking boots on the regular. My book to be clear.


I agree 500%. But for us, it was not defined as THE problem but the leading indicator.


> Everybody gets to have their own book.
> 
> What does make me wince is the pervasive concept that if a man isn't getting sex from his wife he must have done something, or be doing something wrong.


I hear you. I think that is what is often being heard. And I agree that there are some people who are really meaning that. But that is not the only thing being said.

The truth is, the very hard truth I finally got kicked into my skull back in my usenet days, is you can't GET anyone to behave differently. You can't MAKE anyone behave differently. You can say that THEY SHOULD until you are purple. The ONLY person whose actions you can change are your own. And seeking an action that MIGHT get the desired REaction is the ONLY thing you can do.



> And there is another little nugget that I'd like people to keep in mind. The 'whiny' angry, hurt men that post about their wives that want nothing to do with them in the bedroom, if at all? Odds are they still love those women ... else they wouldn't feel hurt, and wouldn't have much to be angry about.


I use that word not to be a big fat meanie, believe it or not. But to illustrate _that that is what the behavior sounds like to their wives._



> I can appreciate when someone just posts, "Well, have to talked about with her/him?"
> 
> And I can't help but shake my head and snicker. If someone has chosen to come to an online marriage forum and post about the pain or trouble of their personal life ... odds are they aren't the one with the issue communicating.
> 
> I always love a success story, NobodySpecial.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> And yet... how are you and Mrs. T2 doing, again? Success? Yea, that what I thought. Obviously, there is one bitter lapdog here...


Yah he is a bit tweaked, that one. It is like he is ANGRY that we solved the problem and are ridiculously happy. I am kind of baffled that the people on here think this was about housework. I think they missed the part where part of my listening to him was allowing for the fact that my standards for housework don't have to be his. He is allowed to not give a hoot if the clothes are on the floor.

I don't know how what I wrote can be read as a chore for sex barter. I think a chore for sex barter is a lose/lose. It leads directly to a NNMG lack of desire and attraction. Dividing responsibility in an equitable manner? Key. Chores for sex? Bad.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah he is a bit tweaked, that one. It is like he is ANGRY that we solved the problem and are ridiculously happy. I am kind of baffled that the people on here think this was about housework. I think they missed the part where part of my listening to him was allowing for the fact that my standards for housework don't have to be his. He is allowed to not give a hoot if the clothes are on the floor.
> 
> I don't know how what I wrote can be read as a chore for sex barter. I think a chore for sex barter is a lose/lose. It leads directly to a NNMG lack of desire and attraction. Dividing responsibility in an equitable manner? Key. Chores for sex? Bad.


It was about you consciously withholding sex to affect change an hit him where it hurts him.

Do you deny that?

Same as a husband giving his wife the silent treatment.

Both are wrong.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Big Dude said:


> QFT. I suspect that some of the reaction against NS's success story is that in this and her other posts she neatly packages the most common logical fallacy seen on TAM.
> 
> "My married sex life was bad. I did some work and some communicating and now it is good. Therefore, anybody experiencing a bad married sex life must be not working at it or not trying hard enough to communicate."
> 
> It is wonderful that back of the cereal box psychology works sometimes, and beneficial to TAM for people to post success stories. But the conclusion that people with more complicated situations need only "get to work" can be seen as condescending and obnoxious.


I am sorry that is how it comes across. It is intended to be gee have you considered doing it this way. It worked for us.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> And to clarify ... as that is also one of my many gifts as an awesome communicator ...
> 
> NS, I REALLY don't think that most of the participants understand that what you are talking about is in the rear-view mirror. They see it as present, or recent.
> 
> ...


I have said 15 years of crazy happiness at least 3 times in this thread.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have said 15 years of crazy happiness at least 3 times in this thread.


And we don't like the turn around methodology what is so hard to understand?

That's like saying stealing is a good way to make a living

I hope wives don't take your advice...oh wait they do.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Big Dude said:


> QFT. I suspect that some of the reaction against NS's success story is that in this and her other posts she neatly packages the most common logical fallacy seen on TAM.
> 
> "My married sex life was bad. I did some work and some communicating and now it is good. Therefore, anybody experiencing a bad married sex life must be not working at it or not trying hard enough to communicate."
> 
> It is wonderful that back of the cereal box psychology works sometimes, and beneficial to TAM for people to post success stories. But the conclusion that people with more complicated situations need only "get to work" can be seen as condescending and obnoxious.


Well, this thread popped up after one bitter person said "the things suggested on TAM DON'T WORK"... not "usually don't work", but absolutely do not. NS wasn't on TAM 15 years ago, but she did, as Deejo pointed out, what is often suggested on TAM... and it worked for them. And now she is getting berated because it worked, and makes others uncomfortable. However, had the OTHER side done it, they would have been congratulated... by the same onescondemning NS. 

You want to know what else is obnoxious? Insisting that suggestions posted on here never work/will never work for anyone. God forbid one spouse tell the other that the marriage needs to come before gaming or any other thing that draws too much away from the spouse. I'm serious. There is nothing wrong with thelling your husband or wife that YOU are more important than a particular TV show, game, shopping, or whatever other hobby you can think of. 

This is what NS did. And she told him that focusing on these things has made him less attractive to her. Loss of attraction means no sex. And, yes, even some men feel this way about sex. But, in th eyes of some, that's acceptable...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I hope wives don't take your advice...oh wait they do.


I hope husbands don't take YOUR advice. Oh, sorry... no chance of that. Carry on.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Well, this thread popped up after one bitter person said "the things suggested on TAM DON'T WORK"... not "usually don't work", but absolutely do not. NS wasn't on TAM 15 years ago, but she did, as Deejo pointed out, what is often suggested on TAM... and it worked for them. And now she is getting berated because it worked, and makes others uncomfortable. However, had the OTHER side done it, they would have been congratulated... by the same onescondemning NS.
> 
> You want to know what else is obnoxious? Insisting that suggestions posted on here never work/will never work for anyone. God forbid one spouse tell the other that the marriage needs to come before gaming or any other thing that draws too much away from the spouse. I'm serious. There is nothing wrong with thelling your husband or wife that YOU are more important than a particular TV show, game, shopping, or whatever other hobby you can think of.
> 
> This is what NS did. And she told him that focusing on these things has made him less attractive to her. Loss of attraction means no sex. And, yes, even some men feel this way about sex. But, in th eyes of some, that's acceptable...


From a woman's and a moderators point of view


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> I hope husbands don't take YOUR advice. Oh, sorry... no chance of that. Carry on.


Actually many do they stopped playing the game a long time ago..get tired of the ridiculous uphill battle of the sexes.

Women are you happy? You win congrats a lousy marriage over sex...winner winner chicken dinner


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am sorry that is how it comes across. It is intended to be gee have you considered doing it this way. It worked for us.


Honestly, if you had posted this when I first joined, I probably wouldn't have spent a full year and a half faffing about on things that didn't work.

What I see as true is that destabilization works--but nobody likes it done to them. You were open, honest and above the board, you laid out what was killing your desire and stopped being fake about your needs and from there it was either "get husband on board or get out" time.

These stories aren't as popular on the board as the "got in shape, took the lead of my house and stopped failing **** test" stories are here. But they resonate with some--thanks for posting yours.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trying2figureitout said:


> And we don't like the turn around methodology what is so hard to understand?
> 
> That's like saying stealing is a good way to make a living


So ... it's wrong? They're wrong? Their marriage is a fraud and a sham?

Results. It's all I'm really interested in. All of the theory-craft in the world doesn't mean a thing to me unless there are results tied to it.

I don't think most of the gentleman on this thread would care much at all about the 'why', if their wives started enthusiastically shagging them again, short of the belief she's shagging someone else as well.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> It was about you consciously withholding sex to affect change an hit him where it hurts him.
> 
> Do you deny that?


LOL. No that is not what happened at all. He did not consciously deny me his time to hit me where it hurt. He did want to hang out with me because I was being a royal pain in his behind. I did not consciously stop having sex with him to hit him where it hurt. I did not stop having sex with _consciously_ at all. He just icked me out. So when came near, I was like no not so much.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Deejo said:


> So ... it's wrong? They're wrong? Their marriage is a fraud and a sham?
> 
> Results. It's all I'm really interested in. All of the theory-craft in the world doesn't mean a thing to me unless there are results tied to it.
> 
> I don't think most of the gentleman on this thread would care much at all about the 'why', if their wives started enthusiastically shagging them again, short of the belief she's shagging someone else as well.


Results: so you are a-ok with women withholding sex to get their way?

Got it.....after all kits all in the results isn't it?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> LOL. No that is not what happened at all. He did not consciously deny me his time to hit me where it hurt. He did want to hang out with me because I was being a royal pain in his behind. I did not consciously stop having sex with him to hit him where it hurt. I did not stop having sex with _consciously_ at all. He just icked me out. So when came near, I was like no not so much.


No handjob, hugs or nothing right? If it doesn't feel good to me then that's it right?

Trash taking out is yuck too. But necessary for a good marriage.

You can rationalize all you want after all you have had 15 years to do so.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I am fine with my wife because she isn't wishy washy...if she wants to bail out I would accept that but she doesn't want to...if she did sure I'd be happy. Because I don't particularly like this multi- year snafu.... I realize part is on me I don't try much and I don't expect her to jump my bones one night .


Of course she doesn't! She can see whomever she wants, whenever she wants, and you just sit at home, waiting. She doens't have to have sex with you, and you still do whatever she requests, be it chores or massages or whatever other nice things she wants. You do them, and she can live her life as she pleases. Why WOULD she divorce?? You are right about one thing... she's not wishy-washy.



Trying2figureitout said:


> See I balance the blame for my situation and I deal with it again like a man.


Uhhhh... sure... 



Trying2figureitout said:


> I am fine with my situation currently because I in effect chose it on my own. Had nothing to do with her. I accept my situation and realize at any time I can end it if I want to or I can redouble my efforts. My choice not hers.


Well, yes and no. You chose to put up with it. You chose to allow her to still talk to her boyfriend. You chose to continue doing the nice things for her, even knowing she will not have sex with you. So, yes, you chose it... because the choices she effectively gave you were take the scraps I give you or leave. You choose the scraps... the scraps she saves after her time with her boyfriend and everyone else.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sounds like you want someone to show up and feed you. REALLY unsexy.


Now you sound resentful, you don't get men. Glad it worked out for you, lets see if it lasts.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> *Actually many do* they stopped playing the game a long time ago..get tired of the ridiculous uphill battle of the sexes.
> 
> Women are you happy? You win congrats a lousy marriage over sex...winner winner chicken dinner


Really? Many? How many allow their wives to continue their affairs? :scratchhead:


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Well, this thread popped up after one bitter person said "the things suggested on TAM DON'T WORK"... not "usually don't work", but absolutely do not. NS wasn't on TAM 15 years ago, but she did, as Deejo pointed out, what is often suggested on TAM... and it worked for them. And now she is getting berated because it worked, and makes others uncomfortable. However, had the OTHER side done it, they would have been congratulated... by the same onescondemning NS.
> 
> You want to know what else is obnoxious? Insisting that suggestions posted on here never work/will never work for anyone. God forbid one spouse tell the other that the marriage needs to come before gaming or any other thing that draws too much away from the spouse. I'm serious. There is nothing wrong with thelling your husband or wife that YOU are more important than a particular TV show, game, shopping, or whatever other hobby you can think of.
> 
> This is what NS did. And she told him that focusing on these things has made him less attractive to her. Loss of attraction means no sex. And, yes, even some men feel this way about sex. But, in th eyes of some, that's acceptable...


And there is nothing wrong with the husband telling wife that he is choosing those diversions because she is a nagging shrew. Which I was. I needed a shake up too. To HEAR him.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Destabilization.... does not mean consciously withholding what cannot be replaced... as in sex within marriage
> 
> Destabilization can involve any other factor up to divorce but not sex


T2, I try to be very reasonable, and defend all quarters in the trenches here. Matter of fact, I used to defend you, when the very thing that is happening to NobodySpecial on this thread was happening to you.

There are very few hard and fast rules when it comes to marriage. And lets face it, most folks can't even follow those.

I have been lambasted many, many times because I fully support, destablization, and game when it comes to relationships. People go on and on, about how it's unproductive at best, deceitful, cruel, and misogynistic at worse.

And quite simply ... it doesn't bother me. Not a whit.

Because my secret, much like yours I'm presuming ... is that I know it works.

I don't care if NS, 'tricked' her husband. He's happy ... or he's tricking her ... and she's happy too. I'm pretty good with that result for anybody.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> Honestly, if you had posted this when I first joined, I probably wouldn't have spent a full year and a half faffing about on things that didn't work.
> 
> What I see as true is that destabilization works--but nobody likes it done to them. You were open, honest and above the board, you laid out what was killing your desire and stopped being fake about your needs and from there it was either "get husband on board or get out" time.
> 
> These stories aren't as popular on the board as the "got in shape, took the lead of my house and stopped failing **** test" stories are here. But they resonate with some--thanks for posting yours.


Thank you.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

tdwal said:


> Now you sound resentful, you don't get men. Glad it worked out for you, lets see if it lasts.


At what point would you consider it as no longer waiting to see if it lasts? They've already got 15 years past the point where the problems came to a head and they finally got it back on track. So, would you say 20 years? 25? 40? 50?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Results: so you are a-ok with women withholding sex to get their way?
> 
> Got it.....after all kits all in the results isn't it?


I'm a-ok with women withholding sex to create a better marriage.

The other party gets to decide if they are a-ok with it too, and if they aren't, then up the game, or step out. 

Or are you just presuming men are helpless, clueless victims in all of these scenarios?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Big Dude said:


> QFT. I suspect that some of the reaction against NS's success story is that in this and her other posts she neatly packages the most common logical fallacy seen on TAM.
> 
> "My married sex life was bad. I did some work and some communicating and now it is good. Therefore, anybody experiencing a bad married sex life must be not working at it or not trying hard enough to communicate."
> 
> It is wonderful that back of the cereal box psychology works sometimes, and beneficial to TAM for people to post success stories. But the conclusion that people with more complicated situations need only "get to work" can be seen as condescending and obnoxious.


To be fair, BD, I never said it would work for everyone. At any decision point, we could have failed to "get it". We were very lucky. If I had continued to nag, trying to turn him into the Mr Nice Guy I would eventually come to hate. If he had continued to dodge and avoid. We'd have lost something that became very beautiful.

I KNOW it won't work for everyone. If you married a person who was never into you and was looking for a bankroll, I am sorry. I have nothing for you, for instance.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Interestingly what he does not see is too people who regularly go to work exhausted from screwing. But I am quite sure he is right. Which is why it is working so well for him.


Funny how you have turned this all around to an attack on T2. I personally agree with him. You broke your vows and withheld sex. Hope you feel good about it. There are losts of men TAM who get treated this way. Its sucks. For you to feel good about yourself for doing this is sickening to me. Good Luck, it wont last.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

tdwal said:


> Funny how you have turned this all around to an attack on T2. I personally agree with him. You broke your vows and withheld sex. Hope you feel good about it. There are losts of men TAM who get treated this way. Its sucks. For you to feel good about yourself for doing this is sickening to me. Good Luck, it wont last.


When did I vow sex? Did you read my vows?

15 years later... We'll see.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> At what point would you consider it as no longer waiting to see if it lasts? They've already got 15 years past the point where the problems came to a head and they finally got it back on track. So, would you say 20 years? 25? 40? 50?


Funny your one of the ones that turned this into an attack on T2. Not interested in your opinion.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

*hugs Deejo* I get it.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Wow ... this is going well.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> When did I vow sex? Did you read my vows?
> 
> 15 years later... We'll see.


Once he reaches the next stage of maturity he will realize what you did and resent you for it. He may already but is going along to get along.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

tdwal said:


> Once he reaches the next stage of maturity he will realize what you did and resent you for it. He may already but is going along to get along.


I asked him about resentment. He laughed.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I cringe every time I see T2 pompously advising men in sexually impaired marriages. 

I always suggest they read his early threads as a cautionary tale. 

He truly is the poster child for how not to fix a sexual disconnect. 





Maricha75 said:


> I hope husbands don't take YOUR advice. Oh, sorry... no chance of that. Carry on.


----------



## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I asked him about resentment. He laughed.


Then he hasn't reached it yet.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I cringe every time I see T2 pompously advising men in sexually impaired marriages.
> 
> I always suggest they read his early threads as a cautionary tale.
> 
> He truly is the poster child for how not to fix a sexual disconnect.


I just feel bad for him.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

tdwal said:


> Funny your one of the ones that turned this into an attack on T2. Not interested in your opinion.


No. T2 turns every single one of these threads into a "women are the devil" type arguments. EVERY single thread. It's all the woman's fault. Men are helpless victims...ALL of them. And it's not true. He has been doing this for YEARS, since his wife gave him the ILYBINILWY speech...and then he found out she has a boyfriend. But, the boyfriend is insignificant, as far as he is concerned. He has come here, pretending to have the answer to a sexless marriage... his "PLAN", which has not worked, not even for him, because he still has not reached his objective. And the fact of the matter is that his is not what the veterans on TAM would consider a "simple" sexless marriage. Is she withholding? Yes. Is it because he's not doing the thing she wants him to do? No. It's because she has a boyfriend and she is content with the financial situation with T2, but has no attraction for him. 

Attacking T2? Sure. We'll go with that. Will you also berate him for his "women are evil" posts? Somehow, I don't think so.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I just feel bad for him.


I used to.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Wow ... this is going well.


There was one poster who found it valuable. That is about the best that one can expect!

Really if there is a lurker out there that reads this and goes hmmmm, I would be happy. Of course, I will never know.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> No. T2 turns every single one of these threads into a "women are the devil" type arguments. EVERY single thread. It's all the woman's fault. Men are helpless victims...ALL of them. And it's not true. He has been doing this for YEARS, since his wife gave him the ILYBINILWY speech...and then he found out she has a boyfriend. But, the boyfriend is insignificant, as far as he is concerned. He has come here, pretending to have the answer to a sexless marriage... his "PLAN", which has not worked, not even for him, because he still has not reached his objective. And the fact of the matter is that his is not what the veterans on TAM would consider a "simple" sexless marriage. Is she withholding? Yes. Is it because he's not doing the thing she wants him to do? No. It's because she has a boyfriend and she is content with the financial situation with T2, but has no attraction for him.
> 
> Attacking T2? Sure. We'll go with that. Will you also berate him for his "women are evil" posts? Somehow, I don't think so.


I don't even feel that I have attacked him. Just responded to him. Shrug.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I cringe every time I see T2 pompously advising men in sexually impaired marriages.
> 
> I always suggest they read his early threads as a cautionary tale.
> 
> He truly is the poster child for how not to fix a sexual disconnect.


I don't necessarily agree with his ideas on this, I do with Wilson at the beginning of the thread. This was punishment, sorry thats what it is. Attacking T2 and trying to turn the thread into that is not right either. I am married 35 years and have been through this. I stayed because of my children and because I thought it would change. It didnt. I am happy for them that they are happy now. Wait until the next snag in their marriage and the true feelings will come back out. The resentment is compartmentalized not gone.


----------



## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> No. T2 turns every single one of these threads into a "women are the devil" type arguments. EVERY single thread. It's all the woman's fault. Men are helpless victims...ALL of them. And it's not true. He has been doing this for YEARS, since his wife gave him the ILYBINILWY speech...and then he found out she has a boyfriend. But, the boyfriend is insignificant, as far as he is concerned. He has come here, pretending to have the answer to a sexless marriage... his "PLAN", which has not worked, not even for him, because he still has not reached his objective. And the fact of the matter is that his is not what the veterans on TAM would consider a "simple" sexless marriage. Is she withholding? Yes. Is it because he's not doing the thing she wants him to do? No. It's because she has a boyfriend and she is content with the financial situation with T2, but has no attraction for him.
> 
> Attacking T2? Sure. We'll go with that. Will you also berate him for his "women are evil" posts? Somehow, I don't think so.


So you condone breaking forum rules when you don't like someone elses opinion. You just admited attacking another poster didn't you.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

tdwal said:


> So you condone breaking forum rules when you don't like someone elses opinion. You just admited attacking another poster didn't you.


Sarcasm, tdwal. Even mods recognize sarcasm. 

That was the "Sure. We'll go with that" part.

In reality, tdwal, I was not attacking T2. I have pointed out that his thinking is flawed. Why? Because no matter what is written on here, if a woman wrote it, it is wrong... according to him.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

tdwal said:


> I don't necessarily agree with his ideas on this, I do with Wilson at the beginning of the thread. This was punishment, sorry thats what it is. Attacking T2 and trying to turn the thread into that is not right either. I am married 35 years and have been through this. I stayed because of my children and because I thought it would change. It didnt. I am happy for them that they are happy now. Wait until the next snag in their marriage and the true feelings will come back out. The resentment is compartmentalized not gone.


Well 15 years can hardly fail to present snags. Two kids, a mortgage, massive home failures, and some other stuff I tend to leave out because of the vitriol I get, all have added snags. He and I agreed long ago that when it is no longer good, we end it. That sounds like non commitment to a lot of people. But to us, it is a commitment to the right thing. Each other.He recently told me of some big life changes that he wants to make. Ones that really don't add any value to me. Ones that will require a lot of work and sacrifice from me, actually. My reply was sure, what do we need to do?

When I mentioned the resentment (we are discussing this thread), and he laughed, he said do you harbor resentment for me being an immature db? No. We grew up together and built a life together. Recently we were talking about what we want. We both said to grow old together.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

tdwal said:


> * I am married 35 years and have been through this. I stayed because of my children and because I thought it would change. It didnt.* I am happy for them that they are happy now. Wait until the next snag in their marriage and the true feelings will come back out. The resentment is compartmentalized not gone.


There is the issue. It didn't change. Your dynamic hasn't changed and you are stuck. We see this from both sides---the women who are unhappy because their husband won't "xyz" but will not or cannot destabilize the situation to their benefit. Same with the men. I can understand why that would be frustrating and why there would be a visceral reaction that this is a punishment or wrong.


But there are things that are two-fold. People who are willing to lose everything (the kids, the marriage and the house) and are willing to use the nuclear option seem to get better results on this forum. It's just not fun seeing that option play out in real terms because it is ugly.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> There is the issue. It didn't change. Your dynamic hasn't changed and you are stuck. We see this from both sides---the women who are unhappy because their husband won't "xyz" but will not or cannot destabilize the situation to their benefit. Same with the men. I can understand why that would be frustrating and why there would be a visceral reaction that this is a punishment or wrong.
> 
> 
> But there are things that are two-fold. People who are willing to lose everything (the kids, the marriage and the house) and are willing to use the nuclear option seem to get better results on this forum. It's just not fun seeing that option play out in real terms because it is ugly.


I agree it is just a very bad situation for all involved. I will leave it at that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> NobodySpecial is the one that went on marriage boards to 'fix' things years ago ... not her husband.


What is funny is that I did... and I didn't. I was like every other poster EVER. I went to the boards to figure out how to GET my husband to change into something I would not even like if I succeeded. I wanted this. I wanted that. I was an awful parody of the yucky wife. I thought a husband was a device that acted like this and that.

There was one guy like you. Very reasonable. He spoke to me a lot. Why did you marry him if you didn't like who he was? Be careful of what you wish for (changing him) because you won't like it if you succeed.

Then there was this woman. I swear to god if it had been a moderated group, I would have never gotten it. She told me Like It Was. And it was not pretty. But it was the key to my finally getting. Good grief I was a dumb young thing.

These boards are a blessing when they help. And one helped me. I am grateful to those people.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

tdwal said:


> Once he reaches the next stage of maturity he will realize what you did and resent you for it. He may already but is going along to get along.


A man who owns his part in a broken marriage and fixes it is WAY more mature than a man that decides to be resentful YEARS later.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NS,
I did as well - 4 years ago. 



QUOTE=NobodySpecial;9477090]I just feel bad for him.[/QUOTE]


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> NS,
> I did as well - 4 years ago.
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I don't really know his story except what I have seen on here. The can a man be emasculated thread comes to mind. Apparently this one can.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TD,
I actually understand waiting until the kids turn 18 or leave the house. But not beyond that point. I'm guessing (based on the length of your marriage) that your youngest is older than 18. Why is it that you chose to stay? 





tdwal said:


> I don't necessarily agree with his ideas on this, I do with Wilson at the beginning of the thread. This was punishment, sorry thats what it is. Attacking T2 and trying to turn the thread into that is not right either. I am married 35 years and have been through this. I stayed because of my children and because I thought it would change. It didnt. I am happy for them that they are happy now. Wait until the next snag in their marriage and the true feelings will come back out. The resentment is compartmentalized not gone.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NS,
I have a series of threads entitled 'the path to sexlessness'. 

In those threads I describe how a sexual relationship can disintegrate over time. 

A big factor in that happening is one of the spouses forcing him / herself to have sex when (for whatever reason) they don't want to. If that happens for a long enough time period, the 'reluctant' spouse develops a true aversion to sex with their partner. 

It's a Pavlovian response. Each time I do THAT I feel bad (during, afterwards or both). And it's almost impossible to unwind that. 

But the interesting thing is how the reluctant spouse often signals their - lack of desire. 

Lots of guys on here post about how their wives stopped kissing them (years before fully refusing sex) or just lay there unmoving (dead fish sex).

And my reaction to that was - AYFKM? Why would you proceed when your partner won't kiss you? Or worse just lies there unmoving. 





NobodySpecial said:


> Well 15 years can hardly fail to present snags. Two kids, a mortgage, massive home failures, and some other stuff I tend to leave out because of the vitriol I get, all have added snags. He and I agreed long ago that when it is no longer good, we end it. That sounds like non commitment to a lot of people. But to us, it is a commitment to the right thing. Each other.He recently told me of some big life changes that he wants to make. Ones that really don't add any value to me. Ones that will require a lot of work and sacrifice from me, actually. My reply was sure, what do we need to do?
> 
> When I mentioned the resentment (we are discussing this thread), and he laughed, he said do you harbor resentment for me being an immature db? No. We grew up together and built a life together. Recently we were talking about what we want. We both said to grow old together.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> NS,
> I have a series of threads entitled 'the path to sexlessness'.
> 
> In those threads I describe how a sexual relationship can disintegrate over time.
> ...


YES! That is exactly what was happening with us. And we were completely baffled because I was previously not like that. I was having sex with him because I was supposed to. We were both confused as to how that had come to be.



> It's a Pavlovian response. Each time I do THAT I feel bad (during, afterwards or both). And it's almost impossible to unwind that.
> 
> But the interesting thing is how the reluctant spouse often signals their - lack of desire.
> 
> ...


Yah. DH was sure that was not what he wanted for the rest of this life. Obviously I didn't either, but at the time I just wanted the sex to stop. When he first told me, after the first kid, he was not living this way, I did not really want to walk that road. But my mind won out. This is a great man. You do what it takes to get there.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NS, my story isn't really like yours, but I did want to chime in and say that I can attest to the fact that whiny people aren't sexy.

I know this because my husband won't f*ck me if I'm being whiny. 

Though we are both HD, my drive is still much higher than his. There were several years in the beginning of our relationship when I wanted to have sex more often than we were having it. At the time, it felt like my H should have been able to just "give it up" more often. There were many problems with that approach.

But the biggest problem with it was that the position I was coming from of "wanting more sex" made me very unsexy, because the expression of "wanting more sex" will always come off like whining.

And honestly, sometimes I would just straight out whine to him "but WHYYYYYY???.......why not again tonight, ugh you're killing me!" which at the time I thought was just being "cute". I thought it would be flattering to him to be wanted so much.

Nope. It just made me look silly and unattractive and helpless. He was actually really kind about it and he told me many times how to increase the frequency of sex. I just wasn't listening very well for the first few years. It was confusing to me, because we were already having a lot of sex, and the mutual attraction and lust for each other was clear. But what he told me to do was...to be more seductive and deliberate in getting my sexual needs met.

Basically, he told me instead of whining, to assert myself.

Which again, was confusing because I felt I was seductive, I felt I was asserting myself. He was clearly very into me and never missed a moment to express his attraction to me. So those things made me think I was seductive. And I was...but not in the deliberately assertive way he was saying I should be in order to increase the frequency.

When I finally "got it", I stopped whining, and now in retrospect I can see what he meant, and can see when I was whining and when I was being assertive and seductive. HUGE difference and now it is clear to me why my behavior wasn't attractive.

I learned well and now have the frequency I wanted...and even better, I don't feel that neediness anymore, I am very fulfilled and really thankful he was patient while I learned these sexual-emotional skills.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,
This should be a sticky - with you adding some examples of what you did after you got good at asserting yourself. 




Faithful Wife said:


> NS, my story isn't really like yours, but I did want to chime in and say that I can attest to the fact that whiny people aren't sexy.
> 
> I know this because my husband won't f*ck me if I'm being whiny.
> 
> ...


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

OT but...I made my husband a BLT for lunch today. He rewarded me with sex afterward  *pant,pant..wag,wag* 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> TD,
> I actually understand waiting until the kids turn 18 or leave the house. But not beyond that point. I'm guessing (based on the length of your marriage) that your youngest is older than 18. Why is it that you chose to stay?


Well that is a good question but we raised my Grandson since my oldest became 18 (till last year), and since both my boys served in the military and when they are struggling after getting out finding a place to live, guess where they come. We have had a full house since last year.

I have a lot of other reasons, some not good but it is what it is. Funny thing is when you get older illness can set in and make it all for naught anyway.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> OT but...I made my husband a BLT for lunch today. He rewarded me with sex afterward  *pant,pant..wag,wag*
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where is the LOVE button?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> ScarletBegonias said:
> 
> 
> > OT but...I made my husband a BLT for lunch today. He rewarded me with sex afterward
> ...


Uhhhhhh... not in the thread. But I'm sure, if you ask your husband, he'd be more than willing to find it for you. 

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TD,
The biggest single modulator of M2's worst behavior is her realization that:
- She gets less time and emotional energy from me when she is being very difficult 
- At the extreme end of the spectrum she knows I would leave. She knows that I don't want a divorce, but I'm willing to get one if need be

Some folks - respond very badly to unconditional commitment. 



UOTE=tdwal;9478314]Well that is a good question but we raised my Grandson since my oldest became 18 (till last year), and since both my boys served in the military and when they are struggling after getting out finding a place to live, guess where they come. We have had a full house since last year.

I have a lot of other reasons, some not good but it is what it is. Funny thing is when you get older illness can set in and make it all for naught anyway.[/QUOTE]


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Desperate and needy isn't attractive, I've turned down plenty of sex when I was single and even when married. I don't want to have sex with a woman because she's needy or will be suffocatingly grateful.

When my wife gets whiney or indignant she's not getting any, I don't need it that way since I can get it better. My wife said I don't get it when she is angry at me or doesn't feel like it. I know feel may not seem satisfactory for some, yet it really is ok when you want to finish the chapter or do something else.

I can appreciate feeling needy and being desperate for sex yet it does come across as a little more about what the needy person wants. Sexy is an easy mutual I can and will do that with you. Save the desperate for that quivering wanting and very lusty kiss when you are well on your way to rainbows.

If your not sharing sex with your love, work it out as soon as you can. If it isn't working and can't be resolved, let them go so they and you can have a shot at those who fit together better, great sex us no accident.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

You do have to be a little careful about teaching spouses "lessons" instead of addressing issues directly. My mom had a friend when I was young. The husband was somewhat uncaring and distant. She had to travel which did not cause a problem. Unbeknowest to her husband she was carrying on an affair on each trip. 

It was embarrassing because she was pretty open about this and it went on for a number of years. 

Then it turned out he wasn't as dumb as it seemed because while she was away, he was having his own affair, they divorced, and she was devastated. I am glad it worked out for you but exercise caution with these games.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

My vows didn't include the words "if you feel like it". I need to renegotiate my contract.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Did your vows include the words "have sex with?" Because mind didn't.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> My vows didn't include the words "if you feel like it". I need to renegotiate my contract.


Perhaps your vows should, I've shared some great sex with my wife during numerous occasions this week. "Feeling like it" seems to work okay for us.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 had terrible morning sickness when pregnant. The worst was with our youngest/third child. Doc put her on bed rest for a couple months. 

I was working 6 days a week at that time and we had a one year old and a five year old at home. So we found a nanny/cook. named Caroline. She was great. We spent every dollar of our disposable income paying Caroline - worth every penny. 

I have a bunch of memories from back then - coming home and seeing M2 in bed. FWIW M2 hates being sick, and hates bed rest even more. So I knew she was really, really feeling bad. And I recall coming into the bedroom every night, seeing her in bed, asking her what I could do for her. Felt bad for her. Wanted to help her. 

Never once felt resentment or thought about sex. Was like my sex drive turned itself off. She's been sick now and then since that time and it's always the same. 

So - took a while but I realized: I don't need sex from M2, just validation. When she's healthy that does mean some amount of sex. When she's not healthy it doesn't. 

So yeah - she vowed to love me - but depending on the situation that means different things at different times. 




Lyris said:


> Did your vows include the words "have sex with?" Because mind didn't.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Did your vows include the words "have sex with?" Because mind didn't.


Are we supposed to take you seriously because your signature says "offering nothing of substance since March 2012" which is when you joined TAM. Just curious.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TD,

Lyris is the bomb. She's a great wife. I think she's just making a point about entitlement. 

I will say this: you're entitled to the truth. So if a spouse shuts down your sex life, your entitled to know why. But that also means you have to be willing to deal with the truth. 

M2 has a lifetimes worth experience with me. So she'd never play the game of:
A. I'm attracted to you
B. I like having sex with you 
C. I know that a minimum amount of sex is critical to your well being and happiness

D. But I am not willing to have sex with you. 

She knows I would just laugh. Full body laugh. And then I'd ask her: what's up? 

Because A+B+C does not equal D. So either A and/or B aren't true. And that's where I would start such a conversation. 

BTW: (A) did become a problem for us for a while. I was too passive and had a weight issue. She was blunt about the weight, and I figured out the passivity. It was a painful 2 years. That's on me. 




tdwal said:


> So what your saying is you entered marriage not intending to have sex with your husband. Was this a church wedding? Thats puzzling, did you intend to have children to procreate. Isn't that what marriage is all about?
> 
> Will you share your vows I would like to hear them.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

tdwal said:


> Are we supposed to take you seriously because your signature says "offering nothing of substance since March 2012" which is when you joined TAM. Just curious.


In general my posts have lots of substance, which is why my sig is hilarious. It is a reference to an insult thrown at me by a poster who made the mistake of thinking I give two sh*ts about what anyone here thinks about me. 

Well, that's not quite true. There are a handful of posters who's good opinion I am proud to have, MEM being one of those. 

And I did not vow to have sex with my husband. I would stop having sex with him if he treated me badly. He would stop having sex with me if I treated him badly.

That's what I don't understand about these threads. When my husband and I aren't in harmony, we don't have sex. We don't want to. There's no asking and rejecting, no one's asking. 

When we're in harmony, we have sex. And we are mostly in harmony.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

Well that post certainly had substance. Thanks for the explanation.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> TD,
> 
> Lyris is the bomb. She's a great wife. I think she's just making a point about entitlement.
> 
> ...


I deleted the post because I was being to sarcastic.  And you quoted it before I did.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

Sorry Lyris, I should have kept my mouth shut.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

L,
This - bit about harmony. It's verbatim what I would have written. Even when we were in our twenties and I could easily go twice a day it was thus. And even during a tussle lasting 3-4 days I never thought: damn we need to resolve this so I can get laid. 

Instead it was: This needs to get resolved. Full stop. But I learned early on that once we were in combat, there would be no resolute until M2 was ready. Even when she was clearly the aggressor. And that was ok. At some point, usually day 2, she would initiate conversation. And mostly if she was in the wrong she would apologize. But honestly - after 2-3 days of being in an ice bath - it usually took me a full day - post apology/resolution before ummm - defrosted - and wanted to do THAT. 

Because a day after we were back in harmony. Funny thing how critical that is. 




Lyris said:


> In general my posts have lots of substance, which is why my sig is hilarious. It is a reference to an insult thrown at me by a poster who made the mistake of thinking I give two sh*ts about what anyone here thinks about me.
> 
> Well, that's not quite true. There are a handful of posters who's good opinion I am proud to have, MEM being one of those.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TD,
You were in a long term sexless (maybe loveless) marriage and then stepped up to raise grandchildren. This is likely a painful subject for you and that's understandable. 

Nobody teaches us how to talk about sex. And it can be very difficult to do so when you have conflicting desires, sex drives and or expectations. 

I'm very, very fortunate. M2 understood from day one that sex is a big deal to men and to this man. And she was brutally honest about her turn ons and turn offs. That combination of: I know you need this, here's how to make it really work with ME, was magical. 

Example: M2 loves affection. It's like candy - hits that endorphine button deep inside her head. I do too. The thing is I was groping her pretty often. 

One day, close to the one year point for us - so about 24 years ago - I groped her during a hug. She steps back - gives me a pure unfiltered homicidal look and says: don't do that, I HATE when you grope me. 

That was the last time I did that. We have a lot of affection - that's non sexual. If she wants to make it something else - she knows she is welcome to do so. Now and then she does, but I don't expect it. As for me, if I want something more I just make eye contact and tilt my head. Worst thing that happens she says 'is it ok we connect tomorrow?'. Otherwise she smiles and we're on. 





tdwal said:


> Sorry Lyris, I should have kept my mouth shut.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> My vows didn't include the words "if you feel like it". I need to renegotiate my contract.


A lot of people have brought up vows. Our vows did not include that he has to spend time with me even when I was being a nagging b. And they did not include sex any time he wanted it either. They just didn't.

But it does not matter. We don't live by vows made in pretty getups 20 years ago. We were married in a church with religious vows. We have long since rethought the god thing and come to completely different conclusions than 20 years ago. We live by the new vows we make each and every day.

You see reference to vows and contracts on this board all the time. How totally attractive is THAT? Our contract includes sex. Come here and bring it. I can't even tell you how wet that makes me! Likely other women as well.

The people casting me as a horrible person who did the wrong thing are missing one crucial point. If I had continued duty sexing him, HE would have walked.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> A lot of people have brought up vows. Our vows did not include that he has to spend time with me even when I was being a nagging b. And they did not include sex any time he wanted it either. They just didn't.
> 
> But it does not matter. We don't live by vows made in pretty getups 20 years ago. We were married in a church with religious vows. We have long since rethought the god thing and come to completely different conclusions than 20 years ago. We live by the new vows we make each and every day.
> 
> ...



Yup atomic bombs ended WW2 also and Japan came back and took our auto industry...payback
You chose to withold from your husband to get your way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
Does this mean you are down in the basement building some type of nuclear dirty bomb to drop on your wife and her lover as revenge? 





Trying2figureitout said:


> Yup atomic bombs ended WW2 also and Japan came back and took our auto industry...payback
> You chose to withold from your husband to get your way.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Does this mean you are down in the basement building some type of nuclear dirty bomb to drop on your wife and her lover as revenge?


Of course not...but she gets less due to our situation


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Of course not...but she gets less due to our situation


Less what??? She doesn't seem to be having a problem with your current dynamic, T2. :scratchhead:


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Yup atomic bombs ended WW2 also and Japan came back and took our auto industry...payback
> You chose to withold from your husband to get your way.


I don't know your story, but could you be any more bitter? You totally missed the point. 

I guess if a man beats his wife, she still better have sex with him. I mean, she's certainly not a person just like him with feelings and thoughts. 

I can see why your wife doesn't want you. 

Men and women have the right to say I don't want to be with you as long as you act this way. If my husband doesn't help out at home, plays video games all hours etc, he isn't going to look attractive to me. I can have sex with him, but it us forced and just mechanical. I can't force myself to be attracted to someone whose behavior I don't like. 

Woman need to respect a man to want him. They need to feel attracted. When they don't, sex usually is hard. It is just a forced action.

You apparently don't understand women and don't care to. To you, women are merely in existence to meet men's needs. Disgusting attitude!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

tennisstar said:


> I don't know your story, but could you be any more bitter? You totally missed the point.
> 
> I guess if a man beats his wife, she still better have sex with him. I mean, she's certainly not a person just like him with feelings and thoughts.
> 
> ...


Totally off base...

My beef is when either spouse deviates from marital normal and then when told about it refuses to meet in the middle on any subject.

You know nothing about myself, my life or marriage


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I have read some of your posts and part of your story. I don't think I'm off-base. 

I hope that you actually consider women people who have feelings and needs just like men. But all I see from your posts is you telling women they should not withhold for any reason except medical. It doesn't matter about her needs, just the man's needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I don't understand all of this hostility being lobbed at OP, or how this turned into a conversation about withholding and destabilizing.

She didn't withhold, she lost attraction. Big difference. And she didn't destabilize, she got into a bad groove, managed to realize it before it destroyed her marriage, and worked with him to pull them both out of it. We should be celebrating her, not lambasting her.

Question to the men who think her h is still smoldering with resentment and has every right to: Do you believe you have an obligation to have sex with your wife no matter how badly she treats you, or how selfishly or childishly she acts? Is there no circumstances you can imagine where you would feel justified in losing attraction to her? Or is it your vow to wait around penis erect for whenever she decides to pay attention to you?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

tdwal said:


> I deleted the post because I was being to sarcastic.  And you quoted it before I did.


Really, it's fine. I didn't take any offence. There's no reason for you to know anything about me or my sig.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Another question is do the men complaining have an obligation to have sex with their wives no matter how fat they get? Because I've certainly read a lot of posts here letting men off the hook for not being attracted to their wives after they put on weight.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Given some of the responses I've seen here, I'd assume that men too have an obligation to be at full mast no matter how *****y, naggy, shrewish, fat, ugly, mean-tempered, abusive, cheating, or evil she gets.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Given some of the responses I've seen here, I'd assume that men too have an obligation to be at full mast no matter how *****y, naggy, shrewish, fat, ugly, mean-tempered, abusive, cheating, or evil she gets.



Oh yes, and remember even if she is unhygienic and doesn't contribute to the household in anyway he still has to be ready at all times for her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
I'm fond of you for many reasons. Truly of all the posters here, your posts reflect me and my situation the most closely. 

It's also true - that when I read posts like the one below, after I finish laughing I feel a deep sense of relief that I don't often irritate you. 

Attraction is a magical thing, it's not something you can either contractually demand or commit to. 

As for T2 and Unbelievable, they are never going to understand that, therefore they will never accept it. And that's why, for the most part I don't bother to debate it with them. 




Lyris said:


> Another question is do the men complaining have an obligation to have sex with their wives no matter how fat they get? Because I've certainly read a lot of posts here letting men off the hook for not being attracted to their wives after they put on weight.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

MEM I can say with confidence that you have never irritated me. Which some might say is quite the feat.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Given some of the responses I've seen here, I'd assume that men too have an obligation to be at full mast no matter how *****y, naggy, shrewish, fat, ugly, mean-tempered, abusive, cheating, or evil she gets.


I asked this on another thread. T2's response was that no sex is not important to women so no, man is not obligated to have sex with his wife.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

It's just so easy to understand why his wife won't have sex with him isn't it. He has zero insight or understanding.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I asked this on another thread. T2's response was that no sex is not important to women so no, man is not obligated to have sex with his wife.


 What, so a woman's job is to lie on her back legs spread, and a man's job is to complain about how poorly she does it?

That sounds like some vows guaranteed to lead to happily ever after


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

always_alone said:


> What, so a woman's job is to lie on her back legs spread, and a man's job is to complain about how poorly she does it?
> 
> That sounds like some vows guaranteed to lead to happily ever after


Its BOTH spouses JOB to listen to the other...this goes far beyond lay back and spread you legs.

Again my view will not be popular but it is real and that again is why marriages struggle.

Its simple and no one is right or wrong BUT when you vow to share you life with another there are certain EXPECTATIONS that exist that SHOULD ensure neither is put in any long term deprived state at the conscious effort of the other spouse.

That is not LOVE that is simply getting one over on the other for your own individual reasons. AS OP did.

Here is the real deal MEN want sex WAYYYYYY more than most any woman on the planet (on average) in MOST of those marriages the cycle of sex tends to adjust to the FEMALE's ideal frequency of where she will accept it and he will be at the edge of happiness and the rationalize its all great because its at the edge of what he will accept. To her hes happy to him hes happy. This period typically lasts either 2-3 years or if it passes that up to 15-17 years)

THEN it starts the little roledex of sights many (not ALL) women have that they log every perceived slight and then to magnify anything from the day they met to the day they die...the log and review at the drop of a hat like some slight database server. Why the woman has be wronged throughout the relationship how on earth can she "provide" another sex chore?

They cannot let go of anything. Unlike men who live day by day and all they want is it fixed. This occurs in so many marriages AND yet I see posters and mods pretend its all the same everyone likes sex the same regardless of facts and studies and even stereotypes which are based on fact in this case.

The answer there is no real solution it just is that way and people tend to throw out the not neglect your spouse thing in lieu of their own personal motives..welcome to 2014

So the basics in OPs case is her husband values sex more than his previous live where he had fun with video games or whatever because he knows if he falls back hes cut off again...

Ita altering the normal course of events and she well ensured it..i'm sure he reports happiness its ordained

Ever see that twilight zone...

The adults, including his own parents, tiptoe nervously around him, constantly telling him how everything he does is "good", since displeasing him can get them wished away into a mystical "cornfield", from which there is no return.

You'd better start thinking happy thoughts if you are OPs husband OP ensured it by cutting off and witholding sex


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lyris said:


> It's just so easy to understand why his wife won't have sex with him isn't it. He has zero insight or understanding.



If the spouse doing the withholding has enough determination he could be telepathic for all the good it would do.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> If the spouse doing the withholding has enough determination he could be telepathic for all the good it would do.


I agree the witholder has their own agenda and it usually involves not addressing their inner emotional baggage. Becuase its too hard. The other spouse is there to pick up the pieces and life goes on.

Not really ANYTHING the other spouse can do at all. Its ALL with the witholder and their mind. All about them. Its always been all about them in their mind.

Yet over and over its the other spouses issue isn't it? Perhaps if he just does X then Y then Z THEN she would not withhold..yeah right

So in a mans case..sure read MMSL or HNHN if that makes you feel in control....

THe reality nothing you do makes on iota of difference.

Unless as in OPS case she basically gave hubby a figurative list which he must fulfill or else.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Lyris said:


> It's just so easy to understand why his wife won't have sex with him isn't it. He has zero insight or understanding.


You have no idea the only easy thing to understand is my mind, because I state facts and the way the world works

Its complicated why my wife won't have sex...strike that she will but its rare and its has NOTHING to do with how I feel about the way the world of men and women when it comes to sex work.

Its a combination of...

Her Resentment and to a lesser extent my resentment
Her not addressing her inner emotions
Her tiredness
Our lack of effort on both our parts
Her rolodex/black book she like many (not all because that might be too general and seen as sexist by some there may be some that don't ) women have

..and yes me being there to pick up the pieces

It is the way it is and I make the best of it and let her stew in her mixed emotions and yes the sub-optimal marriage she chose or rather does nothing to change.

See this everyday in many posts here at TAM..so its a valid scenario very prevalent in today's society

Boils down to the mindset of men and women mostly and the fact on average men are in "need" of sex more after childbirth.

I put need in quotes..its not really a need no one dies from no sex like air or water..its more like proper octane level in gas..runs smooth or runs lame (lean or rich) doesn't matter in how good of shape every other part of the car is.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Her Resentment and to a lesser extent my resentment
> Her not addressing her inner emotions
> Her tiredness
> Our lack of effort on both our parts
> Her rolodex/black book she like many (not all because that might be too general and seen as sexist by some there may be some that don't ) women have





Trying2figureitout said:


> THe reality nothing you do makes on iota of difference.
> 
> Unless as in OPS case she basically gave hubby a figurative list which he must fulfill or else.


So there is T2's wife, who holds onto resentments, can't or won't address what attratcs her enough to have sex, will not make any effort to even get there (or she is by cheating all over the place, who knows) and has a husband who instead of saying "wife, I will not put up with it," actually does put up with the shenanigans without actually having sex at all--he just gets his venting out online

OR

NS who has let go of the resentments (by saying them out in the open and her husband doing the same) made efforts to have sex (by addressing what the blocks are in her relationship--sorry, gave him a list) and a husband who was willing to walk if his own list (sex) wasn't fulfilled. They have sex and a good marriage.

Which one seems to be working here?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> So there is T2's wife, who holds onto resentments, can't or won't address what attratcs her enough to have sex, will not make any effort to even get there (or she is by cheating all over the place, who knows) and has a husband who instead of saying "wife, I will not put up with it," actually does put up with the shenanigans without actually having sex at all--he just gets his venting out online
> 
> OR
> 
> ...


FF that's up for debate isn't it? Some of us don't sell out our soul to the wayward spouse..in fact many of us

But you come at it from a different mindset


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> FF that's up for debate isn't it? Some of us don't sell out our soul to the* wayward spouse*..in fact many of us
> 
> But you come at it from a different mindset



I hope you are starting to recognize that your situation is not a "woman" thing" it's your wife is cheating on you thing and your extrapolations to all women are not great--your wife is cheating on you.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> I hope you are starting to recognize that your situation is not a "woman" thing" it's your wife is cheating on you thing and your extrapolations to all women are not great--your wife is cheating on you.



NO sorry it still boils down to the disparity of how each gender (on average) values sex..as for my wife ended EA yes she *WAS* satisfying her primary need "Emotional Connection"

Again I state facts not what people want to believe

I started with the premise like you believe.... I was proved wrong in thinking a methodical approach would work over four years now I face facts...and try to help others here understand their situation that brought them to a sex forum.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The moment sex becomes quid pro quo, list or otherwise, the marriage is DOA. 

To paraphrase comrade Mao, real desire does NOT come out of the barrel of a "gun"...


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Again, I ask which would you prefer here?

Would you rather be here venting about all women instead of promoting one possible solution?

I understand this is unpalatable to a lot of men because it's not easy; you aren't going to get what you want automatically because of marriage and you can't force your wife to comply anymore.

But presenting in the manner that "you are PUNISHING your husband" (because she followed through with her true emotions, said her true emotions and then said the solution to changing these emotions)--you've won the battle but not the war dude. 

So, I have to think you'd rather cling to the notion that women just aren't sexual. It's far less confrontational and still gives you an avenue to just blame women. 

If so, done. Go for it dude.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

john117 said:


> The moment sex becomes quid pro quo, list or otherwise, the marriage is DOA.
> 
> To paraphrase comrade Mao, real desire does NOT come out of the barrel of a "gun"...


All to true. If I have to jump through hoops for any passion from my wife the result is I continue to distance myself further from her. She has yet to figure this out but I cannot be any more blunt with her. Marriage is a two way street.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

always_alone said:


> What, so a woman's job is to lie on her back legs spread, and a man's job is to complain about how poorly she does it?
> 
> That sounds like some vows guaranteed to lead to happily ever after





EleGirl said:


> If a man was married to a woman who never bathed, did not take care of her appearance, gained a lot of weight, never cleaned house, ignored the children, etc etc.... is her husband obligated to have sex with her?
> 
> What is the line at which the marriage is so broken that it's reasonable for a man to not want sex with his wife?





Trying2figureitout said:


> Difference for the woman is its not a need and may be seen as a benefit not having sex
> 
> BIG DIFFERENCE most women list sex a #8 or #9 if it makes the list of needs
> 
> Men #1 or #2


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/204826-there-something-wrong-me-him-2.html#post9485962


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

richie33 said:


> All to true. If I have to jump through hoops for any passion from my wife the result is I continue to distance myself further from her. She has yet to figure this out but I cannot be any more blunt with her. Marriage is a two way street.


Do you think your wife jumps through any hoops for you for anything? Not just sex--conversation, household, anything that you get a benefit out of?

Because if she doesn't, correct. If she does--you are right, marriage is a two way street. It sucks to be held up to a standard, but there it is.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Do you think your wife jumps through any hoops for you for anything? Not just sex--conversation, household, anything that you get a benefit out of?
> 
> Because if she doesn't, correct. If she does--you are right, marriage is a two way street. It sucks to be held up to a standard, but there it is.


Far from it. If marriage supposed to be 50-50, my marriage looks 75-25. When the numbers look like that conversations about what else I could do go in one ear and out the other.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
Before we continue with the advanced topics - sex and sexual desire, I'd suggest perhaps revisiting a basic foundational topic which is non sexual affection. 

When all this started 4+ years ago your wife was actively avoiding your touch. She sat on the 'other' couch in the tv room, and pulled away from non sexual touch. She continued to avoid your touch even when you voluntarily took sex off the table for 6 months. 

In parallel to this she was buying sexy lingerie and for the first time in your marriage shaving her V and meeting her ummmm - friend at the gym every day for 2 hours. 

So - in love with someone else and actively avoiding physical contact. 

Very basic question: where are you on the affection front? 

There are women who come on here and say: My skin crawls when he touches me. 

And this is important, I'm not taking sides in that situation. Might be the guy - is just that kind of guy. Might be the woman is totally in love with her AP and is unable to tolerate two simultaneous physical relationships. 





Trying2figureitout said:


> NO sorry it still boils down to the disparity of how each gender (on average) values sex..as for my wife ended EA yes she *WAS* satisfying her primary need "Emotional Connection"
> 
> Again I state facts not what people want to believe
> 
> I started with the premise like you believe.... I was proved wrong in thinking a methodical approach would work over four years now I face facts...and try to help others here understand their situation that brought them to a sex forum.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Again, I ask which would you prefer here?
> 
> Would you rather be here venting about all women instead of promoting one possible solution?
> 
> ...


Obviously I "prefer" what I am doing because I TRIED the alternative over 4 years which made decent changes but not what I what I was seeking...so the plan ended

My research and observation point to on average a very significant difference in how each gender perceives sex at face value and also in how each gender on average processes thoughts and emotions internally.


Again there is no right or wrong...but when marriage on average means there will be sex then that's the issue again societies definition...so yes I can point to witholders as being the primary cause ehn holding a candle to societal norms.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Ever see that twilight zone...
> 
> The adults, including his own parents, tiptoe nervously around him, constantly telling him how everything he does is "good", since displeasing him can get them wished away into a mystical "cornfield", from which there is no return.
> 
> You'd better start thinking happy thoughts if you are OPs husband OP ensured it by cutting off and witholding sex


Yes, I did see that episode (love the Twilight Zone!), but here's the difference: no wife holds that level of power over her husband. All he has to do is get up and walk away and have sex with someone else. Easy peasy.

And OP's husband was ready to do that. But he chose to stay. Presumably because he valued the relationship, and cared about meeting her needs as much as he cared about having his own needs met --not because he was afraid of being banished to the cornfield. 

It's beyond me why seem to think men are powerless in this regard, and that anytime a man cares about a woman's needs, it is because he is puppy trained to "think happy thoughts".

Two people need to make compromises if a relationship is going to work. If you don't like that, hire a housemaid and a prostitute.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Before we continue with the advanced topics - sex and sexual desire, I'd suggest perhaps revisiting a basic foundational topic which is non sexual affection.
> 
> When all this started 4+ years ago your wife was actively avoiding your touch. She sat on the 'other' couch in the tv room, and pulled away from non sexual touch. She continued to avoid your touch even when you voluntarily took sex off the table for 6 months.
> ...


And it might be a woman cheating to get one of her primary needs met which in many women's cases is emotional connection not sex.

Same reason most men who cheat its for sex or admiration.

I think "love" takes different forms and its possible to love more than just your spouse. Again that quality though I believe is mainly a female characteristic... most men fall head over heals for their spouse who later treats them badly in many cases with new ones popping up everyday her on TAM same story same reasons.

Most men are blindsided by this.

As for where I am..depends on the day


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

All I need is a lady who has a high adventurous sex drive, initiates whenever the mood strikes her, takes care of herself, is fit, wears sexy shoes and clothes, and likes oils, toys, oral, try anal, breast and foot jobs, etc. If she can cook like me, a bonus but not needed. If she does the same amount of daily chores as me, again, a bonus but not needed. I need that physical connection and not a friend. A need a woman and not a girl. And Mrs.CuddleBug has started to change and hopefully the changes will continue and one day, BAM.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Yes, I did see that episode (love the Twilight Zone!), but here's the difference: no wife holds that level of power over her husband. All he has to do is get up and walk away and have sex with someone else. Easy peasy.
> 
> And OP's husband was ready to do that. But he chose to stay. Presumably because he valued the relationship, and cared about meeting her needs as much as he cared about having his own needs met --not because he was afraid of being banished to the cornfield.
> 
> ...



That makes the Man lose his man card...cheating is not a good option.

But of course you would not see it that way you pretend men in marriages have options

Most men take responsibility and still provide even when treated badly its in their make up as men, we all signed on to marriage with our own wife now we lie in our own beds with it with her dictating when and where sex happens and many sexually deprived.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> That makes the Man lose his man card...cheating is not a good option.
> 
> But of course you would not see it that way you pretend men in marriages have options
> 
> Most men take responsibility and still provide even when treated badly its in their make up as men.



I've even read posts were men who did much for their LD wives but still got very little back in return, went out, met a hot lady who only wants sex all the sex, a sex friend. They get the sex they so desperately needed and their LD wives can have their near sexless marriages.......

And as bad as that is, in the end, its up to LD to take care of their hubby or wifee's needs as their own or not.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> NO sorry it still boils down to the disparity of how each gender (on average) values sex..as for my wife ended EA yes she *WAS* satisfying her primary need "Emotional Connection"


It strikes me that nothing boils down to this. I don't really know your story, but if what others here are saying is on target, it sounds to me like your wife is plenty sexual, just not with you.

If I were you, I'd consider revising my analysis of what's going on, including what you perceive to be the "facts" of you wife's needs and sexuality.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

always_alone said:


> It strikes me that nothing boils down to this. I don't really know your story, but if what others here are saying is on target, it sounds to me like your wife is plenty sexual, just not with you.
> 
> If I were you, I'd consider revising my analysis of what's going on, including what you perceive to be the "facts" of you wife's needs and sexuality.


I live with my wife the rest of TAM does not thus their opinion is just that


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Yes, I did see that episode (love the Twilight Zone!), but here's the difference: no wife holds that level of power over her husband. All he has to do is get up and walk away and have sex with someone else. Easy peasy.



Easy except for divorce costs, child support, alimony, losing out in settlements, etc.

Peasy really


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

richie33 said:


> Far from it. If marriage supposed to be 50-50, my marriage looks 75-25. When the numbers look like that conversations about what else I could do go in one ear and out the other.


Then perhaps the answer is that you need to do less.

It would be interesting to see a list of what you do and what she does.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> That makes the Man lose his man card...cheating is not a good option.
> 
> But of course you would not see it that way you pretend men in marriages have options


Just for the the record, I wasn't suggesting cheating, I was suggesting divorce. 

There's always options.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Just for the the record, I wasn't suggesting cheating, I was suggesting divorce.
> 
> There's always options.


Many support you look at divorce statistics


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I live with my wife the rest of TAM does not thus their opinion is just that


Fair enough, but did she actually cheat on you? If so, then I'd guess her sexual needs are higher than you give credit to.

For starters.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Fair enough, but did she actually cheat on you? If so, then I'd guess her sexual needs are higher than you give credit to.
> 
> For starters.


Emotionally yes, physically probably not. Again to my satisfaction of the facts of the case


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> It would be interesting to see a list of what you do and what she does.


:iagree:

It's super easy to see how many compromises and sacrifices we make, while taking for granted or overlooking how much the other person is putting in.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Then perhaps the answer is that you need to do less.
> 
> It would be interesting to see a list of what you do and what she does.


All the driving, she hasn't gotten her license still at 35, so majority of the shopping falls on me, kids need to go to the doctor, me, she needs to go the doctor, dentist, hairdresser, mother house, etc...me. Majority of the cleaning...me, she does the laundry, granted she does a very good job. But I clean the three bathrooms, three bedrooms, yard,etc. She works as a nurse, three days a week, out the house from 5 am and not home till almost 10. I have two young, very active boys that are in my care all day. No help, all me. I work nights 5 days a week and I bath my kids every night and help put them to bed even when she is home. I could go on but that's some of the unbalance.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Again there is no right or wrong...but when marriage on average means there will be sex then that's the issue again societies definition...so yes I can point to witholders as being the primary cause ehn holding a candle to societal norms.


What society thinks is completely irrelevant to me. Society can kiss my lily white butt cheeks. Society's group think includes people like you. No thank you.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> What society thinks is completely irrelevant to me. Society can kiss my lily white butt cheeks. Society's group think includes people like you. No thank you.


And many see withholding from your husband sex to get your way wrong..its not all your world

But it "worked" happy thoughts abound


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> Easy except for divorce costs, child support, alimony, losing out in settlements, etc.
> 
> Peasy really


I know what you're saying, as in my relationship it would for sure be me who did all of the paying, as I'm the household breadwinner.

But I'd do it. Especially if he cut me off from sex and was dallying with other women.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
More specifically how much physical contact / affection does your W:
- Initiate
- Respond in a clearly positive way





Trying2figureitout said:


> And it might be a woman cheating to get one of her primary needs met which in many women's cases is emotional connection not sex.
> 
> Same reason most men who cheat its for sex or admiration.
> 
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Moderators, I would like this thread closed please. It apparently is of no use to anyone, and I won't continue to be lambasted by a person with corn stuck in his internet ears.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

No problem!


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