# Why do we marry and should we continue this tradition?



## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

After observing a lot more on TAM, I see many responses to problems being to divorce, move on and be happy. Many people come here looking to stay in their marriages, to solve the issues, to undo or repent for any wrongs they did, but all too often I see the response to divorce. It may be because all too often a line has been crossed and the advice sought is too late, or it may be because we bring our own pasts and project our own filters in the responses, or some other reason.

This leads me to question why. If we should simply move on when we realise we're incompatible, or we've made a mistake, or our spouses made a mistake, then why marry in the first place? Does marriage still have it's place in modern society?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I think this place and many others like it can be toxic for marriage. It has its place to understand you are not alone, but if your are looking for advice then I think you have better luck asking the magic 8 ball. Everyone's situation is different and we are only getting half the story. How can anyone judge divorce in a couple paragraphs?

As for marriage, I am rather skeptical. It's different today than the marriage my parents had. Some people do it right and some people do it wrong. Lots of people just get blindsided or run after the first rough patch. Marriage is hard and lots of people enter into it with fairy tale ideas and reality is it is far from it.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I think this place and many others like it can be toxic for marriage.


Agreed.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I am certain that marriage will continue as a tradition for a long time. People have an innate need to bond, whether that's through marriage or some other way. Marriage has evolved over the centuries, and will continue to do so, though. We see people marrying later, and fewer take the plunge than did just 30 years ago. I don't know how it will change in the future, but change it will along with other social changes; IMO, mostly for the better.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

minimalME said:


> Agreed.


Yep. We have too many strong voices that don't even try to unwind the situation and project into the situation.
While they are trying to help because they believe that divorcing is the only or best solution the OP is almost never allowed to contemplate other choices. The OP is almost never counseled to look within for any problems. 

But to answer the original question. I think those with the attitude that marriage is so disposable shouldn't participate in marriage. They should be up front and honest when dating that they aren't looking to participate in marriage. They know that honestly many dating perspectives would pass on them so it is only fair to say that up front. They can live their happiest life single.

For me I love marriage and would wish my own daughter have a happy marriage as well. I'd advise her to skip the no marriage men. I don't have a son but if I did I give him the same advice.

I'd tell them both to choose well.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yep. We have too many strong voices that don't even try to unwind the situation and project into the situation.While they are trying to help because they believe that divorcing is the only or best solution the OP is almost never allowed to contemplate other choices. *The OP is almost never counseled to look within for any problems.*


Exactly! This is a huge problem - not only here, but just in general.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Seems to me it is both too easy to get married and too easy to get unmarried, and this places leans heavily on the latter for advice. Statistics on second and third marriages ought to tell you everything you need to know about whether or not abandoning your current marriage improves your chance of lifelong bliss. There should be a forum here dedicated to those considering marriage. I know at 22 I was naïve about certain things about which I should have been made aware - at least, married in the Catholic Church, there was a mandatory counseling program required with a sponsor couple before the ceremony, and that was helpful.

Edit: Had my wife arrived here at one certain point in our marriage, she would have been counseled to leave, since someone like me was so morally deficient in so many obvious ways that it should be cause for retroactive abortion. We would both now be worse off.

Nothing in life is easy, and expecting marriage to be any different is to fool yourself.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

MarmiteC said:


> After observing a lot more on TAM, I see many responses to problems being to divorce, move on and be happy. Many people come here looking to stay in their marriages, to solve the issues, to undo or repent for any wrongs they did, but all too often I see the response to divorce. It may be because all too often a line has been crossed and the advice sought is too late, or it may be because we bring our own pasts and project our own filters in the responses, or some other reason.
> 
> This leads me to question why. If we should simply move on when we realise we're incompatible, or we've made a mistake, or our spouses made a mistake, then why marry in the first place? Does marriage still have it's place in modern society?


People are untrained to understand that marriage is about the other person, not themselves. 
It should be, in my mind, your natural desire to fill your spouse's love cup in the way they need it filled and they should be doing that for you. 
For most people, they've been conditioned to think that marriage is about getting their love cup filled, but they don't think about filling their spouse's love cup.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I've read plenty of posts from everyone telling an OP to divorce, or saying they hope their spouse divorces them, when they believe they are in the wrong.

I've also read plenty of posters shame or dismiss how an OP is feeling about truly painful things they are going through, simply because a poster is uncomfortable or lacks empathy and understanding FOR THE OP in that situation, and is projecting THEIR idea of what is right or valuable, or what marriage "should mean" onto that OP.

Everyone has their deal-breakers and boundaries. Some people believe you should stay with a sex-refusing spouse. Some people believe you should reconcile with a cheater. Some people believe when your spouse is mean to you, you must have done something to deserve it, because they don't have a spouse who has ever been mean to them.
Some people take the wife's side over the husband's in many situations, and then take her side again when the roles are reversed. Or they will do the same with the husband.

Telling someone to try harder only goes so far. If someone has an unwilling spouse, you can either keep being taken advantage of and remain unhappy, or you can set firm boundaries and stick to them. HOW do you stick to your boundaries in a relationship?? Does anyone have a better consequence than divorce or ending the relationship?

Much of the "divorce" advice comes from lots of experience reading about people on here and trying to make an OP understand that they can't force their spouse to change. And then again, I ask -- are you guys saying it's better to tell them to live with it and be unhappy?? Would anyone saying that stay in a relationship that didn't meet their needs...has anyone saying that ever actually DONE that? I highly doubt it.

And everyone on here has jumped to divorce as the best option in their first posts. No one on here has the moral high ground with how they give advice.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> People are untrained to understand that marriage is about the other person, not themselves.
> It should be, in my mind, your natural desire to fill your spouse's love cup in the way they need it filled and they should be doing that for you.
> For most people, they've been conditioned to think that marriage is about getting their love cup filled, but they don't think about filling their spouse's love cup.


Uh-huh...and then what is your advice to someone who is married to a spouse who is selfish and never thinks about "filling their spouse's love cup"...??


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MarmiteC said:


> After observing a lot more on TAM, I see many responses to problems being to divorce, move on and be happy. Many people come here looking to stay in their marriages, to solve the issues, to undo or repent for any wrongs they did, but all too often I see the response to divorce. It may be because all too often a line has been crossed and the advice sought is too late, or it may be because we bring our own pasts and project our own filters in the responses, or some other reason.
> 
> This leads me to question why. If we should simply move on when we realise we're incompatible, or we've made a mistake, or our spouses made a mistake, then why marry in the first place? Does marriage still have it's place in modern society?


There are just so many people who will not work and do what's needed for a healthy relationship. A lot of the time it's the person posting and complaining and often their spouse as well. Sometimes the poster really has tried and their spouse just doesn't give a damn.

When no one wants to do the hard work it takes on themselves as well as their marriage, the only options are to keep complaining or divorce because the marriage is obviously not so damn important that they might actually take real steps to make it healthy and good.

There are some who do improve here but they work at it and problems get resolved.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Uh-huh...and then what is your advice to someone who is married to a spouse who is selfish and never thinks about "filling their spouse's love cup"...??


I probably would not have married a person who is so selfish, although I know many did for various reasons, their loneliness at the very least of things. There are some things that are very good about having Asperger's, such as not needing somebody else if they don't need you. However, I'm cognizant that in my marriage, I should try and meet my partner's need on her terms. 

However, if perchance that I did end up marrying somebody who did one of the three A's, abuse, affairs, or abandonment, I would not have difficulty in ending that marriage without regret.

My advice are for couples who want to love each each other, not for anyone who has no interest in learning how to give love.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Much of the "divorce" advice comes from lots of experience reading about people on here and trying to make an OP understand that they can't force their spouse to change. And then again, I ask -- are you guys saying it's better to tell them to live with it and be unhappy?? Would anyone saying that stay in a relationship that didn't meet their needs...has anyone saying that ever actually DONE that? I highly doubt it.


Depends on what your needs and expectations are.

If they are unrealistic, that is not your spouse's fault. Since you will then bring that unrealistic expectation into your next relationship, you will have achieved nothing. 

I cannot tell you or anyone else what is reasonable to expect, except to say that since no two people fully agree, it will always take _work_ to figure it out and _compromise _to solve it. Unwillingness to do either means you might the problem, not your spouse. 

If you tell me that you have never made any compromises in your marriage, I will not believe you. At its core, that is EXACTLY what compromise is - choosing to "live with it and be happy". Only you can decide on what you should compromise, but expanding the definition without violating your essential character is a good recipe for improving your marriage.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> I probably would not have married a person who is so selfish, although I know many did for various reasons, their loneliness at the very least of things. There are some things that are very good about having Asperger's, such as not needing somebody else if they don't need you.
> 
> However, if perchance that I did end up marrying somebody who did one of the three A's, abuse, affairs, or abandonment, I would not have difficulty in ending that marriage without regret.
> 
> My advice are for couples who want to love each each other, not for anyone who has no interest in learning how to give love.


What if you don't realize how selfish they are before you marry them? Either because they purposefully lie, or because the signs aren't obvious? Or because the person you married decided to change the rules of the relationship (without your consent) years after you marry?

And then how do you define those three A's? Because from what I've learned reading on here, everyone defines it differently.

What about the couples where one partner says, they don't need to work on the marriage because THEY don't have a problem, their spouse is the one who is unhappy, so they don't care. How does someone navigate that kind of problem, where their spouse just DOES NOT CARE...??


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> What if you don't realize how selfish they are before you marry them? Either because they purposefully lie, or because the signs aren't obvious? Or because the person you married decided to change the rules of the relationship (without your consent) years after you marry?
> 
> And then how do you define those three A's? Because from what I've learned reading on here, everyone defines it differently.
> 
> What about the couples where one partner says, they don't need to work on the marriage because THEY don't have a problem, their spouse is the one who is unhappy, so they don't care. How does someone navigate that kind of problem, where their spouse just DOES NOT CARE...??


I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing that divorce is never the right option, just that perhaps it shouldn't be the first one you consider.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Depends on what your needs and expectations are.
> 
> If they are unrealistic, that is not your spouse's fault. Since you will then bring that unrealistic expectation into your next relationship, you will have achieved nothing.
> 
> ...


I agree...however, what if it's not YOU but your spouse who is unwilling to compromise? What if they keep expecting you to lower your expectations, and tell you it's your fault for being unrealistic??

And I think it's so very subjective to try to define what is and is not unreasonable to expect from a relationship and partner.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing that divorce is never the right option, just that perhaps it shouldn't be the first one you consider.


Yes, perhaps. That wasn't what I meant...I meant that even those people saying that have posted the advice to divorce in their first posts, in situations that THEY believe warrant that.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> What if you don't realize how selfish they are before you marry them? Either because they purposefully lie, or because the signs aren't obvious? Or because the person you married decided to change the rules of the relationship (without your consent) years after you marry?
> 
> And then how do you define those three A's? Because from what I've learned reading on here, everyone defines it differently.
> 
> What about the couples where one partner says, they don't need to work on the marriage because THEY don't have a problem, their spouse is the one who is unhappy, so they don't care. How does someone navigate that kind of problem, where their spouse just DOES NOT CARE...??


First, I'm not condemning anybody who makes a mistakes and marries somebody they should not have married.
Culturally, we all want to believe the Captain and Tenille, Love will keep us together.

Most of us are too trusting in ourselves and our ability to pick good partners. There used to be a time when a potential spouse would be given the third degree by their potential in-laws who were looking for flaws before the marriage>

I tend to think they are self-explanatory, but I can try and give you my understanding of it.
Abuse - Anytime somebody violates your sense of sovereignty.
Physical -The only time one should get physical with their spouse is if they are defending themselves. There is no room, in my mind, to every hit your spouse.
Emotional - They are tearing you down as a person. Making you feel guilty, when there is no wrong. Or tearing stripes off you for no reason. There is no reason to insult somebody until they feel
like crap. Causing somebody unnecessary emotional pain.
Sexual - Rape or molestation. Their body is sovereign.

Abandonment -I think this takes a couple of forms. 1.Where they are so involved in their own life, the spouse feels like they are alone.2. They are gone, without explanation, for extensive periods of time. Their home is basically only to receive mail.

Affairs - I can tolerate my wife flirting, if she was flirted with first. If she doesn't initiate it, but responds and it's not important, as long as she comes home. However, if she starts to pay attention to somebody, at my expense, I will mind that. Of course, Physical affections to another person is completely out of the question.

If somebody has said that they don't need to work on the marriage, I classify that as abandonment. The marriage is for both, not just one person's satisfaction. If somebody perceives themselves as not being loved within a marriage, they are correct. The other spouse needs to see if they can meet that person's need in a reasonable manner. Everybody has a different love language and they need to hear they are loved in a language they understand or they won't feel it.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Seems we are thread jacking here.

OP asked if marriage should be practiced or abandoned.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> Seems we are thread jacking here.
> 
> OP asked if marriage should be practiced or abandoned.


Seems to me in a day and age of unprecedented choice, both is the correct answer, unless you want to raise children. Then the evidence is pretty compelling that marriage is the better objective choice.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I think if it has meaning for you then you should practice it. It’s wrong to say that divorce is frictionless.

If you look around here you can find quite a lot of friction associated with divorce which acts as an added incentive to try and fix what is broken.

In many states even without legal marriage after a time of co-habitation you get some of the legal protections of marriage anyway (access to property).

So I’m a traditional guy and if I want to be with a woman and “lock it down” I’m going to get married. If she didn’t want to get married she’s not the right gal for me.


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## DallasCowboyFan (Nov 20, 2012)

I believe marriage will always have it's place, that there will always be marriages and society will always be better for those who marry with their eyes open and make a true committment to each other. There is no better way to raise children than with a mother and father in the home who have such a committment. This board has a large number of posts and comments but it is a small sample of society. I suspect a very small percentage of people vent, seek advice or give advice on an online marriage board. I do think this board is needed as there are those who need support and advice and they will get a number of opinions, but they can select the advice that best suits them.


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## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Seems we are thread jacking here.
> 
> OP asked if marriage should be practiced or abandoned.


Thread jack away, I wanted to encourage healthy and respectful debate.


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## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> And then how do you define those three A's? Because from what I've learned reading on here, everyone defines it differently.


What are the 3 A's? This is a good example. Some have been on this board for some time and have learned alot of valuable information in helping someone assess where they're at.

I learned about love languages here and that has helped me immensely in my new relationship, and further aided to understand where it was lacking in my marriage. 

Is it fair to say that often sources of friction are neither spouses fault, it is because of their differences. Understanding those at least can help shape what the future might look like, together or apart?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MarmiteC said:


> After observing a lot more on TAM, I see many responses to problems being to divorce, move on and be happy. Many people come here looking to stay in their marriages, to solve the issues, to undo or repent for any wrongs they did, but all too often I see the response to divorce. It may be because all too often a line has been crossed and the advice sought is too late, or it may be because we bring our own pasts and project our own filters in the responses, or some other reason.


TAM is a self selected group of people who are looking to deal with some issues. Some members stick around for a long time, even after they have dealt with the issues that brought them here. Most post a few times and do not return. What we see here are mostly people in a marriage crisis. People who are happily married seldom post here. This is not a place to use as a measure of marriage in the entire society.

I do think that the responses here are based on people using their own past as filters. There is little, to no support here to help people repair their marriage.



MarmiteC said:


> This leads me to question why. If we should simply move on when we realise we're incompatible, or we've made a mistake, or our spouses made a mistake, then why marry in the first place? Does marriage still have it's place in modern society?


I don't think that divorce is the answer to every marriage problem, not even the most serious ones like infidelity. Without repentance, forgiveness, and personal growth there is little point in anything in life because we all mess up one way or the other in our lifetimes.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

I think it is as important as it has ever been, maybe even more so, to choose wisely when it comes to marriage. It is my personal belief that most single people you run into these days are incapable of the commitment required to keep a marriage going. If you make a mistake and end up with one of those people, your marriage will be a bust. And if you happen to be one of those people, all of your marriages will be a bust.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Seems to me in a day and age of unprecedented choice, both is the correct answer, unless you want to raise children. Then the evidence is pretty compelling that marriage is the better objective choice.


Exactly It's a personal choice, like it's always been. However, these are things that should be communicated with people you are dating. Nobody wants to put in 2 years to find out you are opposed to marriage overall.


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## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

To


Anastasia6 said:


> Exactly It's a personal choice, like it's always been. However, these are things that should be communicated with people you are dating. Nobody wants to put in 2 years to find out you are opposed to marriage overall.


So to pick up on this, and other points, how does someone know? Do you think we're predisposed to only see the great in people we date at first? 
How does someone determine incompatibility early enough? How do we ensure we picked right?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I am 100% pro marriage. I wouldn't live with a guy without being married.
Despite my first marriage of 25 years ending in divorce, I had no hesitation in marrying again when the opportunity arose. 
I do think that generally people are more selfish than they used to be, that too many expect to get their needs met while not making much effort to reciprocate. 
I also think that many divorce too easily for relatively minor things. 

It can get depressing here with so many marriages in trouble and so much hurt and anger, but I know a lot of really good strong marriages so that balances it out.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

If a poster to this site exaggerates the spouse's shortcomings and downplays his own, then divorce is more likely to sound like the best advice. But this is said poster's fault, and his problem.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

MarmiteC said:


> To
> 
> 
> So to pick up on this, and other points, how does someone know? Do you think we're predisposed to only see the great in people we date at first?
> How does someone determine incompatibility early enough? How do we ensure we picked right?


That's probably the hardest thing.
I picked my husband almost before the first date and at the end of the first date I knew. But being a 'smart' person I continued dating and I actually put him through tests. I know so many will be like what.... and hate on me. But I decided to see what he was made of before waiting 3 years for situations to actually arise. I chose well we married 5 weeks after we started dating and 28 years later we are still going strong and have the best relationship i know of.

Key elements I think
1. Know yourself. Be honest as to what you want. Be realistic. I knew I didn't want a man in the military. I knew I didn't want a man who could go days without seeing me and be happy. I'm too clingy and need time adn affection to feel loved. I'm sometimes loud so I didn't hold back. That's part of being honest too. I didn't try to present him with a fake me. That was the hardest because when you are young (or not so young) you usually do the bestest fake you for dating right? But you can't live like that. So I didn't try to be quiet. I didn't try to act dumb (well mostly not. I have a high IQ and this causes problems with insecure males which is most).
I let him meet my mom at my moms house. I love my mom but she was out there and she was a hoarder so ....

2. Be realistic. Don't expect things to change after you get married. Don't let things you know bother you go unless you are going to change where they don't bother you. So many people think that this thing isn't so important even though it bugs the hell out of them. It's going to continue to bug the hell out of you.

3. Be committed. Once you are committed be committed. Think of yourself as a team. Treat them as a team. Think of how you can make their life better, what they need. And go back to number 1 and 2 if you are super selfish maybe you shouldn't be married or you need to marry a giver who likes giving. If you see selfish, self-centered traits in them they aren't marriage material. NOT everyone is marriage material.

4. Be willing and able to grow together. So if my husband like scuba diving I learn to scuba. If I like bowling he learns to bowl. Ideally you'll already have some overlap. Spend time together.

5. Practice being grateful.


Of course some or many don't choose wisely or won't compromise or are married to someone like that. But honestly I notice that many who come complaining 'think' they are doing everything right and their spouse just won't...... That may be true but I think it's probably more that the TWO people aren't communicating and committed.

I know this opinion will go over like a lead ballon but my favorite saying is

A relationship is like a bank. Make sure you are making more deposits then withdraws so the balance will last forever.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

First of all when it comes to this site, I think people forget that we disproportionately have people coming here and to other sites with very serious long term bad marriages. Often with a history of abuse and infidelity in them. So given that fact the advice is often going to be to protect yourself. That is generally good advice. Of course there will always be posters who care more about the marriage then the person posting, you can generally tell who they are. Many posters just like society care more about the stigma of divorce then a happy life. 

*Marriage at all cost is slavery, that more then anything else, particularly growing up with parents whose marriage followed that pattern has contributed more to the loss of the importance of marriage then anything else in society. *

Yes there are some voices here that say divorce when the spouse doesn't help around the house, or when the spouse doesn't want to have sex anymore, and I think often it makes sense to really try to get to the root of the problem. Frankly I wish there were more posts like this on this board. But usually it's, my wife is having sex with my neighbor.

That being said this is hard to do on a message board.

I think part of the point of modern society is choice. The thing with marriage is there is often kids involved so it has to be thought about as more then two people in those cases. That being said it seems like more and more that is not a problem.

I'm not sure where there is a mandate to marry in modern western culture.

All that being said I highly recommend it. I am very happy I married and would do it again, if circumstances were to sadly put me in that position.

Marriage has never been the problem, it's the people in those bad marriages that are.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing that divorce is never the right option, just that perhaps it shouldn't be the first one you consider.


In my mind this really depends. I am not sure if - try harder is going to work, if your spouse is a lazy selfish ass.

I am also not sure what the purpose is in keeping people in unhappy situations in their day to day life. How does that benefit society? I get that traditionally it did particularly when women were not working and standard domestic work required hours daily, but in modern society what is the benefit? I mean just as an institution having even a 3rd of existing marriages long term with both partners unhappy, how does that promote marriage? If anything most institutions with a 50% failure rate go away.

I personally don't think everyone is cut out for marriage in today's western culture. Frankly I think maybe 40% of the population is capable of it, particularly with the self-centered way we as a society have raised children for half a century now. Given all that, I see less marriages but more healthy ones as a good thing. If we continue to promote bad marriages, marriage will go away as is already happening.

As has been implied by other posters, I really believe maybe 90% of your success in marriage comes about at the picking stage, if you pick the wrong person there may be nothing you can do. Society as a whole does a really bad job of preparing people for that and how to do that. If anything it promotes the wrong things, or things that may lead to problems.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> First, I'm not condemning anybody who makes a mistakes and marries somebody they should not have married.
> Culturally, we all want to believe the Captain and Tenille, Love will keep us together.


They divorced.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Seems to me in a day and age of unprecedented choice, both is the correct answer, unless you want to raise children. Then the evidence is pretty compelling that marriage is the better objective choice.


Theoretically, but only half those last and then countless kids shuttle BTW 2 homes with two sets of rules. I'm dealing with that right now.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

MarmiteC said:


> After observing a lot more on TAM, I see many responses to problems being to divorce, move on and be happy. Many people come here looking to stay in their marriages, to solve the issues, to undo or repent for any wrongs they did, but all too often I see the response to divorce. It may be because all too often a line has been crossed and the advice sought is too late, or it may be because we bring our own pasts and project our own filters in the responses, or some other reason.
> 
> This leads me to question why. If we should simply move on when we realise we're incompatible, or we've made a mistake, or our spouses made a mistake, then why marry in the first place? Does marriage still have it's place in modern society?


Like other posters have mentioned, I think TAM does not represent most marriages, only the ones in crisis. Some of us came when we didn't know where else to turn when it was already too late. Such is life. 

Even though I am grateful that divorce is fairly easy, I still value marriage if it's between two people who honor what it means. I'm not sure I want to remarry, it felt like I gave everything I had and I don't know if I can do that again. However, it's wonderful to see marriages that thrive because two people know what it means to put each other first and truly love one another.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> I'm not sure I want to remarry, it felt like I gave everything I had and I don't know if I can do that again.


And you absolutely shouldn't unless you meet someone one day and feel like you can give your all again. I think a lot of young people don't get that that is the kind of commitment it takes.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

sokillme said:


> And you absolutely shouldn't unless you meet someone one day and feel like you can give your all again. I think a lot of young people don't get that that is the kind of commitment it takes.


I actually am in a relationship with someone I might feel that way about, but there's no rush.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think marriage is still a viable institution and in certain circumstances for certain people can still be a good option. 

But people today have to look at, prepare for and deal with marriage differently than previous generations. 

And for a lot of people, marriage is probably NOT the preferable option. 

In previous generations, marriage was a cultural, societal and religious expectation and it was such a strong expectation many people simply believed they HAD to whether they wanted to or were the slightest bit cut out for it or not. 

People basically had to be married to be with the person they wanted to be with. People had to be married to be considered a viable member of the community. People had to be married to be considered “normal.” People had to be married to have sex. Women in particular had to be married to ensure a roof over their heads and food in their bellies and people had to be married to have children and nuclear families. 

My humble opinion is that today, the only people that should strongly consider marriage is if they are serious about wanting to raise children in a two-parent, legally binding partnership. 

I would not encourage marriage for any of those other things. All of those things can now be done without a legal contract. 

I would also urge that anyone considering marriage today, to be fully aware of the legal and financial risks and be aware of their legal rights and responsibilities for both marriage as well as in a divorce. 

Traditionalists may not like divorce and they may not believe it in. But divorce is a reality and a part of the fabric of western society today and anyone who puts their head in the sand and thinks it won’t happen to them because they are in love or they think their partner is a nice person, is simply being irresponsible and dumb. 

People need to go into marriage with the willingness and ability to divorce. If you were going to fly in an airplane that had a 50% chance of crashing every time it left the ground, you’d better have a parachute. 

Marriage is the same. Have a parachute. In this chase the marital parachute is for each person to have marketable job skills and a means to support themselves. Each person needs to maintain their own financial accounts, investments, retirement plans and line of credit. Each person needs to be able to house, clothe and feed themselves in the event they either need to flee in the night or if their partner walks away. Each person needs to be able to survive and flourish on their own. 

I would also strongly discourage a long term, indefinite SAHW/H arrangement. This arrangement, while the bread and butter of previous generations, is financial suicide for both parties today. 

For the primary breadwinner, they will be held to potentially crippling child and spousal support. This will be paid long term and potentially lifetime spousal support.

While on the surface that may seem like a good deal for the SAHM/D, in practice it often really isn’t. Yes celebrities and the rich and famous can get newsworthy astronomical support awards. For for the Average Joe and the Average Jane, both parties experience significant financial hardship and even ruin. 

It’s one thing to have a SAHM/D for a few years until kids are in school. But long term, indefinite single income households can only result in hardship for both parties most of the time. 

Adults need to be able to support themselves and their children and be able to financially take of themselves in the 50/50 chance that they will divorce. People need to be able to support themselves regardless of their genitalia.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MarmiteC said:


> So to pick up on this, and other points, how does someone know? Do you think we're predisposed to only see the great in people we date at first?
> How does someone determine incompatibility early enough? How do we ensure we picked right?


As another raised, knowing yourself and being honest about that helps - as far as some core aspects of relationships. The question about how do we ensure we picked right... well, I view that as less simplistic than picking right and off we go. To me, navigating life with someone through marriage or LTR is the opportunity for continual personal growth, developing emotional maturity, and negotiating life and the relationship with and through that commitment for one another. The dynamic of a couple is continually cultivated, as a kind of feedback loop.

To spring off the analogy that Chris Rock used whereby marriage is likened to being in a band together, where sometimes one is the lead singer, while the other is the tamborine player... an enduring band doesn't just 'happen'. No doubt it requires aspects of adapting, negotiating, commitment, aligning to a shared vision, working out moments of tension, doing right by one another and all that jazz.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MarmiteC said:


> This leads me to question why. If we should simply move on when we realise we're incompatible, or we've made a mistake, or our spouses made a mistake, then why marry in the first place? Does marriage still have it's place in modern society?


Does it still have it's place... well that depends on the meaning and priorities people place on it and which does typically connect with sociocultural aspects.

I pretty much grew up saying that I'd never get married. Never say never, right? Then Batman came along. End of story.

When Batman and I met, neither of us were actively seeking a serious relationship. We were young, doing our thing, met one another, consistently enjoyed being together, were open with who we are, and fell in love. I somewhat anticipated him going back to his home country not long after we met; and so, I was both falling and guarded that that may happen. He chose to stay as he valued what was evolving between us and didn't want to risk losing that. I didn't ask him to stay, as I felt that would be an unfair call. We moved in together after a year, and were fully entwined for years before marrying; albeit without kids. He knew my stance on marriage. However, marriage became more important to him and as a result, important to me too. I have friends who have been with their spouses for years, raising families and living together who have decided to remain unmarried. In some ways, I reflect back on my former views and recognize elements of default self-protection that I've since outgrown; and while I love being married to Batman, I do hold the view that regardless of marital status, it's about showing up every day.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

By the way, interesting question and topic. 
Thanks for starting this thread!


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

I look at my tall, handsome, athletic, intelligent, and kind 14 year old son, and wonder the same thing. What should I tell him? I wonder what's in it for him?

What we need is the ability to make a contract with a women for a set amount of child support, honored by the state. No marriage, but if you have kids, you will know, before hand, how much it will cost you. With that, there would be zero need for marriage.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

Actually, I guess there is something like that: a "Preconception Agreement."

I think my advice to my son will be to not get married and seek out a preconception agreement if he is interested in having children (although, I'm guessing those are mostly to protect women, and may not be enforced if they are favorable to the man).


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Galabar01 said:


> I look at my tall, handsome, athletic, intelligent, and kind 14 year old son, and wonder the same thing. What should I tell him? I wonder what's in it for him?
> 
> What we need is the ability to make a contract with a women for a set amount of child support, honored by the state. No marriage, but if you have kids, you will know, before hand, how much it will cost you. With that, there would be zero need for marriage.


Not sure I understand. Marriage is not currently necessary to assign child care costs.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

SpinyNorman said:


> Not sure I understand. Marriage is not currently necessary to assign child care costs.


The desire is to know what the child care cost will be before deciding to have a child. Without any such agreement, the child support may be based on a percentage of the father's income.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Galabar01 said:


> The desire is to know what the child care cost will be before deciding to have a child. Without any such agreement, the child support may be based on a percentage of the father's income.


Ok, but marriage doesn't tell you what child care will cost. Whether you marry the mother or not, the costs are largely up to the two of you as long as you're in agreement. If you split up and don't agree, then the courts are likely to get involved and it will largely be about the parents' means whether you were married or not.

I read your linked preconception agreement, and it seems to be mostly for women who wish to be single mothers and therefore to limit the scope of the father's involvement, both financially and father role.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Galabar01 said:


> The desire is to know what the child care cost will be before deciding to have a child. Without any such agreement, the child support may be based on a percentage of the father's income.


Your goal should be to have healthy happy children with a good mother. Most women who fit that description would pass on your sons offer. 

but not everyone should be a dad so it would still work out.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

SpinyNorman said:


> Ok, but marriage doesn't tell you what child care will cost. Whether you marry the mother or not, the costs are largely up to the two of you as long as you're in agreement. If you split up and don't agree, then the courts are likely to get involved and it will largely be about the parents' means whether you were married or not.
> 
> I read your linked preconception agreement, and it seems to be mostly for women who wish to be single mothers and therefore to limit the scope of the father's involvement, both financially and father role.


Yes, what we need is something that would be binding. My advice to young men will probably be to not have children unless a particular state offers this type of contract (some day).


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Your goal should be to have healthy happy children with a good mother. Most women who fit that description would pass on your sons offer.
> 
> but not everyone should be a dad so it would still work out.


That can exist without government forcing men to hand over a significant amount of their income until a child is 18 (or 21). I understand that this takes power away from women. However, if men begin to opt out, states may have no choice but to offer this option.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Galabar01 said:


> That can exist without government forcing men to hand over a significant amount of their income until a child is 18 (or 21). I understand that this takes power away from women. However, if men begin to opt out, states may have no choice but to offer this option.


Nope the choice is easy have less children save the whole planet.

and the kind of woman that would sell her child wouldn’t make a good mother.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Nope the choice is easy have less children save the whole planet.
> 
> and the kind of woman that would sell her child wouldn’t make a good mother.


Most women may not agree with you. If they are faced with the options of (a) no children, (b) a sperm bank, or (c) advocating for changes in the law to allow them to have a relationship with the father of their children, they may select (c).

The only way to change things would be for men to opt out. Woman can then decide how to move forward.


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

I'm wondering why any sane man would enter into an open-ended agreement where the state could force them to pay any amount of money, going as far as placing them in prison if they are unable to pay? That doesn't sound like a great deal to me.

The caveat here is that I've done that twice. Luckily, I'm still with my wife and my children are getting older.


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## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> That's probably the hardest thing.





heartsbeating said:


> As another raised, knowing yourself and being honest about that helps - as far as some core aspects of relationships. The question about how do we ensure we picked right... well, I view that as less simplistic than picking right and off we go.


Picking up on these points, if someone was coming to TAM and asking if the person they're with is right for marriage with them, what key things would you encourage them to look for, either within themselves or their chosen partner, to check for a base level of compatibility that would allow them to grow together?


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## Yoni (Feb 7, 2021)

My mom told me "married or divorced whatever happen when about die. Everything will be good memories. That show and prove that we alive.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

The riskiest, most hurtful, and financially stupid thing that a young man that has worked hard and positioned himself to be financially successful, is to get married, have kids, and have his new wife be a stay at home mom.

Even without the stay at hone mom thing, it’s an extremely risky proposition now to get married and have kids, particularly with a woman not making equal income.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Time to change the forum name to Talk About Divorce or Talk About Avoiding Marriage.

Jesus, you people are cynical.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

MarmiteC said:


> Picking up on these points, if someone was coming to TAM and asking if the person they're with is right for marriage with them, what key things would you encourage them to look for, either within themselves or their chosen partner, to check for a base level of compatibility that would allow them to grow together?


Do you like the person well enough you want to spend time with them while not having sex. Do you want to do things with them that you wouldn't normally do like bowling or what have you. Do you share values about religion, money, marriage and such.

Learn to think critically. 

For me it is very hard. I am a people watcher and have been my whole life. I was also persued agressively as a young woman so I learned to be discerning. I dated a bit. I have one LTR that was supposed to lead to marriage that I realized not to settle for something that would make you unhappy forever. So by the time I met my husband I had enough experience, discernment and realistic expectations that I felt I knew what I was getting into. I wasn't old when we married 23 but I started dating at 13. 

I think too many people can never achieve the think realistically. They see what they want to see or they are afraid of being alone. They think this is the best I can do but then they don't settle their hearts on that being good enough. Face it you are never going to marry a perfect person. Find the one that is perfect for you.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

MarmiteC said:


> What are the 3 A's? This is a good example. Some have been on this board for some time and have learned alot of valuable information in helping someone assess where they're at.
> 
> I learned about love languages here and that has helped me immensely in my new relationship, and further aided to understand where it was lacking in my marriage.
> 
> Is it fair to say that often sources of friction are neither spouses fault, it is because of their differences. Understanding those at least can help shape what the future might look like, together or apart?


I was quoting what HE said were his deal breakers --


jonty30 said:


> However, if perchance that I did end up marrying somebody who did one of the three A's, abuse, affairs, or abandonment, I would not have difficulty in ending that marriage without regret.


My point was that creating a happy, successful marriage requires TWO people to be committed and CARING towards eachother. If someone has a partner who is neither of those things towards them, I'm not sure what else can be recommended as a solution besides LEAVE. I'm certainly not going to sugarcoat what I see, nor will I tell them they need to give more to someone who doesn't appreciate them or is using them.

And I don't think I've ever read or heard about any relationship where a partner was somehow "enlightened" about their uncaring attitude or their lack of commitment, and happily changed into a good partner and saved the marriage.
Has anyone else on here seen that happen? (on here or in real life)

When someone doesn't care about you, you have NO real options with that person, from what I've seen.
People who have never lived with a partner like that, and who have never experienced the desperation, sadness, and hopelessness that being in a relationship like that brings, have no right to judge what someone who IS with a partner like that decides to do.

Implying that there is some magic formula that will warm the heart of a cold-hearted spouse is just CRUEL, in my opinion.
And I've seen it mostly said by people who have NO idea what being with someone like that feels like.

I'm not suggesting that anyone on TAM does anything like this, I'm only speaking generally about the advice that I give to struggling posters and why.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Evinrude58 said:


> The riskiest, most hurtful, and financially stupid thing that a young man that has worked hard and positioned himself to be financially successful, is to get married, have kids, and have his new wife be a stay at home mom.
> 
> Even without the stay at hone mom thing, it’s an extremely risky proposition now to get married and have kids, particularly with a woman not making equal income.


But this is assuming that financial success is the only measure of actual success. For many people, it's not.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Galabar01 said:


> I'm wondering why any sane man would enter into an open-ended agreement where the state could force them to pay any amount of money, going as far as placing them in prison if they are unable to pay? That doesn't sound like a great deal to me.
> 
> The caveat here is that I've done that twice. Luckily, I'm still with my wife and my children are getting older.


Same here...do as I say, not as I do.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Galabar01 said:


> Actually, I guess there is something like that: a "Preconception Agreement."
> 
> I think my advice to my son will be to not get married and seek out a preconception agreement if he is interested in having children (although, I'm guessing those are mostly to protect women, and may not be enforced if they are favorable to the man).


Most of those types of agreements are not honored in court since it would affect the child, you know like one week at mom's ghetto apartment to dad's nice suburban house. Most judges will wipe their ass with anything like that. My advise if I had a son (I have two daughters) would be to consider A) not marrying B) waiting until hes in his late 30s to marry C) wait atleast 5 years after you are with a girl, met her family, do your due diligence (no past infidelities, good moral upbringing, no gold digger mentality) and only then get married after exhausting every possibility not to.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Most of those types of agreements are not honored in court since it would affect the child, you know like one week at mom's ghetto apartment to dad's nice suburban house. Most judges will wipe their ass with anything like that. My advise if I had a son (I have two daughters) would be to consider A) not marrying B) waiting until hes in his late 30s to marry C) wait atleast 5 years after you are with a girl, met her family, do your due diligence (no past infidelities, good moral upbringing, no gold digger mentality) and only then get married after exhausting every possibility not to.


Not sure this is a guy thing. So you advise your daughters to not marry as well right?


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Most of those types of agreements are not honored in court since it would affect the child, you know like one week at mom's ghetto apartment to dad's nice suburban house. Most judges will wipe their ass with anything like that.


I read the linked article and it mentioned being used by, among others, women being inseminated w/ donor sperm and I suspect that is the most common use. I've never heard of that not being honored in court, but maybe sometimes it's not.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Most of those types of agreements are not honored in court since it would affect the child, you know like one week at mom's ghetto apartment to dad's nice suburban house. Most judges will wipe their ass with anything like that. My advise if I had a son (I have two daughters) would be to consider A) not marrying B) waiting until hes in his late 30s to marry C) wait atleast 5 years after you are with a girl, met her family, do your due diligence (no past infidelities, good moral upbringing, no gold digger mentality) and only then get married after exhausting every possibility not to.


 But then I think what kind of options are really out there in your late 30's unless you want to go with someone in their 20's.... Idk, sounds like a landmine either way. You can either avoid the landmines and opt out or be brave and stupid and step on a couple along the way


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Not sure this is a guy thing. So you advise your daughters to not marry as well right?


It's a little different. I don't think it's as risky for women.

I would advise against it until they get a college degree atleast (and I will use any financial means I have to ensure that). After, I guess it all depends on if she wants children.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

SpinyNorman said:


> I read the linked article and it mentioned being used by, among others, women being inseminated w/ donor sperm and I suspect that is the most common use. I've never heard of that not being honored in court, but maybe sometimes it's not.


Judges have some discretion in honoring agreements that would negatively affect children especially with split custody. If no children are involved, then they would likely hold up.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> It's a little different. I don't think it's as risky for women.
> 
> I would advise against it until they get a college degree atleast (and I will use any financial means I have to ensure that). After, I guess it all depends on if she wants children.


Actually it's much riskier. If a woman gets married and has kids she's the one that most often gets stuck as a single mom raising kids who's dad pops in every weekend or every other weekend trying to buy their affections with gifts breaking rules to be cool but not actually helping in any real way to raise the child. Often times the money you are so greatly worried about isn't even 1/2 of what it actually takes to raise a child. Of course I guess if the guy is wealthy then it is. But joe schmoe in Florida might pay $500 / mn certainly not a windfall.

In the meantime. Dad's out dating like he's unemcumbered. Mom's label a single mom, has had sex with her ex-husband so retro active jealousy. Probably made some career choices that were family oriented but lowered her current salary. So finding her life mate is that much harder. Paying the bills is that much harder. Explaining the kids that dad love them he just couldn't make it this weekend is that much harder. Missing them on holidays is harder.

Obviously there are single dads and such but if we are going to generalize that is what happens. The woman risks her child have an absent father, being labeled, missing her life mate and earning less overall in the long run.

I love marriage. But I'd advise my daughter to choose well.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MarmiteC said:


> Picking up on these points, if someone was coming to TAM and asking if the person they're with is right for marriage with them, what key things would you encourage them to look for, either within themselves or their chosen partner, to check for a base level of compatibility that would allow them to grow together?


Before I got married, we did a couple of things.

One was mandated by the church we married in, but it was not a bad idea. It partnered the prospective newlyweds with a married couple who went through a multi-week conversation. I think it was called "When families marry" - the focus being on the fact that it isn't just the two of you, but your entire history, preconditions, expectations, and a ton of other things that two young people might not consider when deciding on the next 50 years together. We still have the workbooks decades later.

I also required my fiancé to move out of her parent's house and live on her own for a year (with a roommate). I needed to be sure that she could manage money, be an adult, and not rely on someone else putting a roof over her head. She was just finishing up her college degree, which was also something I knew was necessary for me.

I counsel others to be sure to sleep with your fiancé before putting on a wedding ring. This was our big miss. Neither of us knew that sexual incompatibility was even a thing.

So I guess, don't go in blind. Do your homework. Be as diligent in selecting a mate as you would in buying a house or a car, and be just as ready to walk away if things don't look good going in. With a sample size of 1, it worked well. I picked a winner.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> First of all when it comes to this site, I think people forget that we disproportionately have people coming here and to other sites with very serious long term bad marriages. Often with a history of abuse and infidelity in them. So given that fact the advice is often going to be to protect yourself. That is generally good advice. Of course there will always be posters who care more about the marriage then the person posting, you can generally tell who they are. Many posters just like society care more about the stigma of divorce then a happy life.
> 
> *Marriage at all cost is slavery, that more then anything else, particularly growing up with parents whose marriage followed that pattern has contributed more to the loss of the importance of marriage then anything else in society. *
> 
> ...


The issues that end a marriage are often the same ones that end a long term relationship. Both are usually very hard to end especially with children involved and can be equally messy. 
I don't think divorce is a stigma any more is it? It's so common now, no one seems to care. 

I think that most here agree that in cases like serious abuse, addictions and serial cheating divorce is the answer. 
Sometimes marriages that are on the brink can be saved, if both are determined to make it work.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Before I got married, we did a couple of things.
> 
> One was mandated by the church we married in, but it was not a bad idea. It partnered the prospective newlyweds with a married couple who went through a multi-week conversation. I think it was called "When families marry" - the focus being on the fact that it isn't just the two of you, but your entire history, preconditions, expectations, and a ton of other things that two young people might not consider when deciding on the next 50 years together. We still have the workbooks decades later.
> 
> ...


All those things bar one are wise suggestions. The waiting till marriage thing is taught by the church. Most who come here with sexual issues lived together for years first so that clearly doesnt ensure a good sex life. 

Some of the best marriages I know are between couples who didn't have sex first and it hasn't stopped you from having a good marriage either


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> All those things bar one are wise suggestions. The waiting till marriage thing is taught by the church. Most who come here with sexual issues lived together for years first so that clearly doesnt ensure a good sex life.
> 
> Some of the best marriages I know are between couples who didn't have sex first and it hasn't stopped you from having a good marriage either


I will absolutely go to the matt with you on this one. 

Nothing ensures a good sex life forever. But one thing ensures a bad sex life forever - a partner with whom you are not compatible. Basic incompatibility can be figured our before a divorce is required to undo the damage. That you haven't experienced it is not a valid counter-argument. The church can pound sand on this one, and most people seem to agree in practice.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Marriage in its current form is a domestic agreement for mutual support. The people involved become a legal unit to facilitate things like legal contracts and stuff like that. It is especially useful for those people that haven't been born with a silver spoon and are going to be supporting each other as they try to improve their career prospects. That is, one works full time and overtime while the other finishes a graduate or technical degree or gets certified or whatever. It formalizes the sharing of resources like insurance and housing. If marriage didn't exist, we'd have to invent it and it would probably only be available to the well off.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I will absolutely go to the matt with you on this one.
> 
> Nothing ensures a good sex life forever. But one thing ensures a bad sex life forever - a partner with whom you are not compatible. Basic incompatibility can be figured our before a divorce is required to undo the damage. That you haven't experienced it is not a valid counter-argument. The church can pound sand on this one, and most people seem to agree in practice.


I think I will trust what my Father says.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Actually it's much riskier. If a woman gets married and has kids she's the one that most often gets stuck as a single mom raising kids who's dad pops in every weekend or every other weekend trying to buy their affections with gifts breaking rules to be cool but not actually helping in any real way to raise the child. Often times the money you are so greatly worried about isn't even 1/2 of what it actually takes to raise a child. Of course I guess if the guy is wealthy then it is. But joe schmoe in Florida might pay $500 / mn certainly not a windfall.
> 
> In the meantime. Dad's out dating like he's unemcumbered. Mom's label a single mom, has had sex with her ex-husband so retro active jealousy. Probably made some career choices that were family oriented but lowered her current salary. So finding her life mate is that much harder. Paying the bills is that much harder. Explaining the kids that dad love them he just couldn't make it this weekend is that much harder. Missing them on holidays is harder.
> 
> ...


That's the stereotype but there are plenty of men, like me, that have 50/50 custody. There are also lots of men that travel for work and have to pay child support so are stuck as weekend dads. There are even quite a few that have full custody. And many more that end up in court where the Judge is almost always biased toward mom. Or mom wants full custody and dad doesn't fight it. 

Guess what there are a higher percentage of dead beat moms than dad's when it's awarded in reverse.

A lot of women aren't stuck as single moms, they make that choice in 70% of the divorce filings, most of the time at no fault of the husband (anymore than the wife). Then the default claim is he must have beat his wife or cheated on her. I don't know stats on abusive marriage but I know infidelity in marriage is fairly equal among the sexes. Yet the stereotype remains.

Whatever the case, it's hard for me to recommend to anyone that marriage is a good idea. Even if you choose wisely, it may not be a wise choice 10 years down the road. Might as well put all your money on red.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I think I will trust what my Father says.


As is your choice. You Father's advice was the single worst thing that ever happened to my marriage. By Far.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Cletus said:


> I will absolutely go to the matt with you on this one.
> 
> Nothing ensures a good sex life forever. But one thing ensures a bad sex life forever - a partner with whom you are not compatible. Basic incompatibility can be figured our before a divorce is required to undo the damage. That you haven't experienced it is not a valid counter-argument. The church can pound sand on this one, and most people seem to agree in practice.


What does sexual incompatible mean? She doesn't want to have sex and you do?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> What does sexual incompatible mean? She doesn't want to have sex and you do?


It means that we have wildly different definitions of what constitutes satisfying sex in a married relationship. I'm not talking about chandelier hanging, whips, ball gags, or anything like that - I'm talking about obvious mainstream things that only became known on our honeymoon.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Cletus said:


> It means that we have wildly different definitions of what constitutes satisfying sex in a married relationship. I'm not talking about chandelier hanging, whips, ball gags, or anything like that - I'm talking about obvious mainstream things that only became known on our honeymoon.


Like missionary and doggy only type thing?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Like missionary and doggy only type thing?


Like missionary only with the lights out. And don't touch my breasts. And don't touch me anywhere below the waist. There will be no foreplay. Doggy is depraved. Oral is sickening. Get out of the shower, this is my time. 

Some of these things have softened over the years, but it took decades, and frankly, wasn't worth the effort. Because we're just miles apart. 

Anyway, I'm not going to further a thread jack. Sex is one of if not the most important aspect of a good marriage - going in to one blind is to roll the dice on a very important question.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

MarmiteC said:


> After observing a lot more on TAM, I see many responses to problems being to divorce, move on and be happy. Many people come here looking to stay in their marriages, to solve the issues, to undo or repent for any wrongs they did, but all too often I see the response to divorce. It may be because all too often a line has been crossed and the advice sought is too late, or it may be because we bring our own pasts and project our own filters in the responses, or some other reason.
> 
> This leads me to question why. If we should simply move on when we realise we're incompatible, or we've made a mistake, or our spouses made a mistake, then why marry in the first place? Does marriage still have it's place in modern society?


for my case. I made multiple mistakes. I can’t stay I am stupid, but I was not seeing the obvious stop sign for sure.

now that I think of it, it was quite obvious. And I should have stopped it from getting further into considering a marriage. (Lies, being selfish, her mother, being a ***** to some people).

if I know what I know now, there is no way I would touch her with a 10-foot pole. I would just let her be somebody else’s problem.

so there is it. I admit I made mistake. Do I regret it? You know, even the same situation when I was younger, and knowing only what I knew back then, it’s highly likely that I would make the same mistake again. Sigh …

anyway, we only live once, and sometimes we need to learn from making mistakes.

does marriage still have a place in this society. Absolutely. Just pick and choose carefully, look at ALL the warning signs, and be prepared to be single, rather than to be married (as the default). Well this is what I am going to tell my son when he grows up, maybe after divorcing his mom by then. LOL


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MarmiteC said:


> Picking up on these points, if someone was coming to TAM and asking if the person they're with is right for marriage with them, what key things would you encourage them to look for, either within themselves or their chosen partner, to check for a base level of compatibility that would allow them to grow together?


My awkward yet honest answer to this is that most people posting have enough life experience to have figured this out for themselves; or know the answer but just haven't faced it yet - and which could apply to either whether it's right or not. We're all complex and live with contradictions and so I don't think it can be summed up in a simple and universal way. However, so as not to be too vague in answering your question, my take is that having aligned values is a good start. And understanding their take on whether pineapple is indeed a pizza topping.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

It really does make you wonder...I know a LOT of people/couples....I can only think of one or two that I would consider successful long term marriages...The rest are divorced, or just co habitating and waiting to die, because neither cares and neither wants to start over.,..

While there has been some movement to make divorces more equitable, some of the stories I have heard from people I know personally makes one wonder what type of horrible crime someone did to deserve such abuse...Like a close friend of mine, who was duped by a lesbian into getting married and having kids, only to have her divorce him, take him for millions, and he even had to foot the bill for her attorney...What world is any of that fair? He basically had to crash his own successful business to get out from under it...

I always contended that we should stop with this crazy notion of "to death do us part"...if you are one of the miniscule few that happens to get that, great, but its far from the norm...instead, just make the marriage like a drivers license...You get married, and every 4 years both parties have to renew, or it's over ....period...Kids would still be cared for equally, but no more of this nonsense where it's almost impossible to extricate one self ...This would put most divorce attorneys out of business and save a lot of people a lot of aggravation and grief...


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## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

Cletus said:


> So I guess, don't go in blind. Do your homework. Be as diligent in selecting a mate as you would in buying a house or a car, and be just as ready to walk away if things don't look good going in. With a sample size of 1, it worked well. I picked a winner.


How I bought my last car: 
Me:"What do you have in stock and can be delivered to me in 2 weeks"
Salesman: " we have X, Y or Z"
Me: " The grey one is nice, I'll have that". 😂

And that is probably the root of my issue. I have no real issue with change. I jump right in with 2 feet and think to myself that if something doesn't work out, I'll change it. 
Cars, possessions, material things that's fine. But mine and other people's hearts it's not. 

So in the last 2 months I've learned that my main love language is touch. Followed by words of affirmation. When I first came to TAM I described a scenario in which I felt lonely, unsupported by a husband with Asperger's. I felt emotionally abandoned. This is what led me to a path to divorce, but that hasn't been easy and I've stopped to question myself on many occasions. Because I loved him.

However, he did not meet my 2 primary love languages. I described him as not tactile (unless he wanted a quickie), I rarely if ever heard from him how beautiful I was. Infact, I got the opposite sense from him. 
Perhaps, if those base items had been there, I could have continued trying to work through some of the other things.

So like love languages, what else should we consider when choosing?
Values is another important one.
Sexual compatibility.

I am a people pleaser by nature, and with my tendency to be interchangeable, I'd like to learn some of these things about myself so I can look for them in any next LTR.


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## MarmiteC (Jun 28, 2021)

heartsbeating said:


> And understanding their take on whether pineapple is indeed a pizza topping.


Pineapple should never be a viable pizza topping. Infact fruit should not be used in any savoury food, ever. (Ok, maybe tomatoes are allowed). 

And I definitely need to have several meals with someone to see if they're a sloppy eater and will trigger my misophonia. No mealtime is fun when you want to punch your meal partner in the head. 😂


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## skerzoid (Feb 7, 2017)

When it was discovered that sex led to pregnancy, the power shifted to males. When men learned that they were the seed planter, they then wanted control of the offspring. They did not want their mates producing children for other males.

Marriage laws are a product of civilization. When we transitioned from "food-gathering" to "food-producing", everything changed.

There are records in cuneiform clay tablets discussing divorce laws in ancient Babylon over 4000 years ago. They had court systems and marriage laws.

Civilization is based on food production and hence, property rights and land ownership. All civilizations have had laws of marriage and inheritance.

Remember King Solomon and the two women fighting over the child. There was a REAL division of property proposed.

In First Wave (based on agriculture) civilizations, it was all about property ownership. "Primogenitor" (first born son) inherited everything. A bastard child had no rights. The word "illegitimate" means "not legal" (not required by law). 

Women had very few rights unless there were no male children. 

Then came "Second Wave" civilizations (the Industrial Revolution about 200 years ago), things began changing again. Laws changed somewhat as more women owned property or depended on their husband's jobs for support. Women started getting more equality, and became voters (a real game changer)!

Now comes the "Third Wave". Women becoming more equal, many times being the main breadwinner. Same-sex marriage, multiple marriage, and many genders (??). Now laws are changing to reflect this. There will always be laws governing the relationships between people, property distributorship, and protection of children.

Marriage as a legal function will be a fixture into the foreseeable future because of culture, tradition, and religion.

Ours is a government based on a non-religious foundation. Many of the founders were not even religious.

But as long as there is unprotected sex, there will always be law governing and protecting the rights of the born and "unborn".


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

MarmiteC said:


> Pineapple should never be a viable pizza topping. Infact fruit should not be used in any savoury food, ever. (Ok, maybe tomatoes are allowed).
> 
> And I definitely need to have several meals with someone to see if they're a sloppy eater and will trigger my misophonia. No mealtime is fun when you want to punch your meal partner in the head. 😂


Some great chefs disagree with you regarding the fruit.


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