# Are these positive things?



## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

We're basically stuck in an idle position. We had started moving forward, then hit a huge roadblock, and we've been stumbling since. He says he has virtually no hope and is sick of the fighting and what it's doing to the kids and our own emotional well being. I'm suggesting small things and he doesn't bite. Very cold and hopeless.

However, he still tells me he loves me and apologizes for where we are. we get into "text" conversations that get no where. He dreads every day because he doesn't want to have these conversations. They basically result in me feeling like he doesn't care, him saying he does but he has to be human and look at the big picture and realize that things have been said and he doesn't want this to turn into a worse situation or for me to hate him. He just feels like since we never fought, and we are always fighting now (and the fights are about moving forward and getting over the issues and seeing a marriage counselor which he won't) that things will always be this way.

So last night, I go to bed, but can't sleep. It's approximately midnight. He's on facebook so I text him that I can't sleep. He says he's sorry. I basically say what are you sorry for, it's not your fault i can't sleep. And he says sorry things suck and that we're both miserable. I tell him not to go there, we can't have this same conversation over and over again because it isn't going to get us past it. He then says that not talking about it won't get us anywhere. I make the comment that since there's no abuse or infidelity, I don't understand why we can't go forward. He says he has no desire to fight, he's sorry it's all hurting me, but he can't do this every day anymore. Then when I ask him if he wants me to just give up, what would be easiest he says he just doesn't know. So he's at a point of indecision. It crushes me. 

So then I keep chatting with him, suggest a safe phrase for when conversation heads down those roads. Or when he doesn't want to respond to something, since he's been doing that a lot lately, especially via text or messages I send him. He skirts around the safe phrase. Says he can't continue risking us continuing on this path to where we hate each other. Then he resorts to saying sorry he's a monster, etc. A bunch of self-defeating junk. He says I don't know where he stands because he doesn't know where he stands. So, I change the course of the conversation at about 1am, and ask him to just listen to me "think". I was going to basically tell him that I wanted to turn things around and I would love for him to join me on that path, but I just started rambling. I talked about how I didn't know how to approach him, how I wanted to do this or that, but I wasn't sure how he'd react. How I'm walking on eggshells. 

I go on and talk about how I don't hate him, but actually the exact opposite. I basically start back at the beginning and discuss mistakes we made by being complacent, etc. Went through our whole history. This went on until almost 5am. I got up to the point where things got bad back at the end of November. Then we went to sleep. I feel bad because he was supposed to go fishing with our son at 6am, but of course they just now left at 9am. He hugged me goodbye but he's not in a good place. I texted him that I'd like to continue to dialogue if he's willing. I'm thinking about asking for us to make it a rule not to talk about relationship stuff in person, to only do it on the computer. he opens up much more and we have that opportunity to "think" before we hit enter.

It sucks feeling like I'm holding onto a sinking ship. I wish he could turn around like he did in December. I feel like I keep pushing him away and I want him to know I'm being patient now. I know that's what I have to do.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

LonelyNLost said:


> We're basically stuck in an idle position. We had started moving forward, then hit a huge roadblock, and we've been stumbling since. He says he has virtually no hope and is sick of the fighting and what it's doing to the kids and our own emotional well being. I'm suggesting small things and he doesn't bite. Very cold and hopeless.
> 
> However, he still tells me he loves me and apologizes for where we are. we get into "text" conversations that get no where. He dreads every day because he doesn't want to have these conversations. They basically result in me feeling like he doesn't care, him saying he does but he has to be human and look at the big picture and realize that things have been said and he doesn't want this to turn into a worse situation or for me to hate him. He just feels like since we never fought, and we are always fighting now (and the fights are about moving forward and getting over the issues and seeing a marriage counselor which he won't) that things will always be this way.
> 
> ...


 Again, I hope it doesn't seem like I want to beat down on you, but I have been through something similar with my H, and I want to spare you the length of uncertainty if I can. You are talking about what you are not getting from him. Constantly. About wanting a decision from him. Constantly. Actions honey. Take the 5 love languages test. Start meeting his needs. The best thing my counselor did, was to have us do some activities to bring us closer, so when we sat down to hash all the bad out, we had something good to fall back on. Back off with all the talking and start DOING things to improve the marriage. Start speaking to him in his love languages. The more he feels like you are working on yourself, the more open he will be abel to be with you, knowing that he can tell you what's really on his mind instead of trying to take all the problems as his fault. I sincerely hope this can help you somehow.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks. Again.  I do need to hear it. I know I'm messing up. I am trying to not push him to decide what he wants. It's just that he doesn't open up. He will a little more if not face to face. 

I know he can't fix that I couldn't sleep. But that was me just reaching out to him. He's been able to act fine when I'm all sad, but yesterday I didn't text or call him and he didn't text or call me (which he always does) until the afternoon. He told me the phone worked two ways. I was trying to back off. Again, not knowing how to act. Then last night I was acting okay, and he was acting all sad. We took the kids to Subway and he leaned over and gave me a hug. It just confuses me. 

I didn't get into what is wrong with him, I actually did quite the opposite. I went into my actions and what I've done wrong. I don't expect him to say "I'm all in", but he seems so close to saying "I'm out". I really don't want to have these conversations anymore, but he feels like we can't move forward without having them, but yet they are a detriment. I gave him an out several times during the conversation, asking if it was wrong to be getting deep virtually, and he encouraged me to go on.

We did discuss communication and honesty/openness as something we both need to work on. I gave him my take on the EA and tried to make him understand why it happened and that he's human and I don't fault him. He says he can't live with his guilt because it never should have happened. I said it could have just as easily been me. And that I hope we can look back at that and at this and say it's the best thing to happen to us because we grow stronger from it.

It felt cathartic to relay my thinking to him. We went through a lot of things, discussed how we both compromise too much and never really dealt with small issues because we didn't see them as big in the grand scheme of things. But they festered and have blown up now, many years later. I felt okay when I went to sleep last night. I don't know how to deal with the uncertainty that I feel. I am trying to let him know that I don't expect him to jump all in, and I told him that baby steps were fine and I knew this wouldn't happen overnight. But I don't want him to check out and this all be in vain. His love language is words of affirmation, but he won't let me in to love him. I want to do things together, but he's so depressed, as am I. I wish I could get him to stop taking everything as his fault. I just don't know how to go about it.

Is it wrong to write in his Valentine card...

I love you, I truly do. I also believe that you love me. I know that things right now are very bad between us. Whether you want it or not, I am going to try and turn things around, and if you are willing to start working with me, right now will be the lowest point in our marriage together. It doesn't matter how long it takes to heal, as long as we both agree that is the direction we want to go. I understand that I can't look to you for reassurance right now, and I'm okay with that. I can be patient. But please know that I do want a life with you, and we can overcome this and come out the other side stronger than before.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

LonelyNLost said:


> Thanks. Again.  I do need to hear it. I know I'm messing up. I am trying to not push him to decide what he wants. It's just that he doesn't open up. He will a little more if not face to face. I know that you aren't trying to, but I think when you talk to him, that is the pressure he is feeling.
> 
> I know he can't fix that I couldn't sleep. But that was me just reaching out to him. He's been able to act fine when I'm all sad, but yesterday I didn't text or call him and he didn't text or call me (which he always does) until the afternoon. He told me the phone worked two ways. I was trying to back off. Again, not knowing how to act. Then last night I was acting okay, and he was acting all sad. We took the kids to Subway and he leaned over and gave me a hug. It just confuses me. The phone DOES work two ways! LOL. No one is saying not to text him, but instead of texting him about how you are feeling or what you want, text him with flirtatious things about what you want to do to him later!
> 
> ...


 I personally would not write that in his card. I would keep it light a loving, maybe even a little sexy. I love you baby and I hope that later tonight I can love you in person LOL. Something silly and lighthearted. When you truly do back off with the deep conversations, you will feel him open up more. The best way to try to save your marriage, is to make yourself better. Give him his words of aff, show him you appreciate him, show him you WANT to be the woman for him


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Yes, I understand that he feels all this pressure from me. He definitely does. But I also don't want to smother him with woa and things because it will seem fake. But I do want to lay off the talk. I tried to tell him that last night. I'd love to be flirtatious, but he is not affectionate when he's feeling this way. He is at the bottom of the barrel.  So I guess I just need to be more confident in the actions I choose? Just love him and hope he comes around? 

I basically did let him know what led up to him feeling unwanted and unloved which led to the EA. I let him know that I neglected him and it happened. I also let him know how good it felt to get past it and work on our future together. He still said he'll always feel guilty because it shouldn't have happened. And I just said that with everything comes a lesson learned and hopefully we learned a lesson about communicating feelings. 

And my H would laugh at me if I told him he looked sexy. That's not his dialect of woa. He needs to know that he's doing things right, that I appreciate him, and that he is important and loved. Before he went out of town, I made him a card for each day he was gone so he could read it in the morning when he woke up. It was 7 cards total, a lot of work! But it meant a lot to him. I filled his love tank while he was gone, and he didn't fill mine, and I had all these expectations for when he got back, but it was awkward. And it compounded. And it exploded.

I really want to communicate the words I wrote to him in some way. Maybe tonight if we finish the conversation online? I do want to just communicate some things and let him know how I'm going to proceed and that the pressure's off. We won't be intimate on Vday, all this stress made my period come early. Grrr. But I asked him to lay with me for a minute last night when he tucked me in, and he was cold in doing that. I also asked if I could lay with him on the couch, and he sat up and I laid on his chest and he put his arm up around his head, wouldn't even lay it on me.  It's just really sad. He's pulling away. 

And there's specific things and points of discussion that I haven't gone into that push him away. Insecurities I have and trust issues. He's the type that will hide something as to not hurt me, but then it ends up hurting me. I'm trying to avoid those things. I did get him to start using the safe phrase last night in the course of the conversation. He also said that he had more to say but that he was afraid to hurt me, so I told him he needed to get it out, so type it out for another time. 

I guess, just all in all, his biggest fear is moving forward, things improving, and then months from now it all crashing down again. And my biggest thing is that I feel like it would be foolish to give up at this point, I'd never have closure and would resent him for not trying. Yes, I continue to make mistakes. I yelled at him the other day about floating. It pushed him away. I'm getting that now. 

Thanks so much for "listening". I'm seriously a cosmic mess. And I've only talked to my closest friend about it. I think I need to get help. But I'm also afraid that if he sees me getting professional support he'll take it as an opportunity to leave because he will know I'll be okay. Right now, I think he is staying because he loves me and cares about me and is scared of me falling apart.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

LonelyNLost said:


> Yes, I understand that he feels all this pressure from me. He definitely does. But I also don't want to smother him with woa and things because it will seem fake. Don't let it BE fake. Make it real. There are a billion things that men do, that we never realize or appreciate them for. But I do want to lay off the talk. I tried to tell him that last night. I'd love to be flirtatious, but he is not affectionate when he's feeling this way. He is at the bottom of the barrel.  So I guess I just need to be more confident in the actions I choose? Just love him and hope he comes around? yes. Be confident. The key isn't to get him to be affectionate, the key is to show him that you like stroking his ego and that you appreciate him. You know that his fear is that it will get better and then you guys will settle into the old routine, so give without expecting right now.
> 
> I basically did let him know what led up to him feeling unwanted and unloved which led to the EA. I let him know that I neglected him and it happened. I also let him know how good it felt to get past it and work on our future together. He still said he'll always feel guilty because it shouldn't have happened. And I just said that with everything comes a lesson learned and hopefully we learned a lesson about communicating feelings. The lesson was for both of you. You both have to meet each others needs because you WANT to. I can understand he feels guilty,my H does too, but my one comment on it was that if you are going to feel guilty always, how are we supposed to realize this gift we have been given to fix our marriage?
> 
> ...


So start small with some self improvement/ books. Start going to the gym if you can. Start reading about what his needs are. Start involving yourself with who you want to be.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks again for all of your help. You are very logical and are making me think about what an idiot I am being. It's so hard to let go of expectations. But that's what I have to do. I'll try my best to turn things around. Any books you can recommend?


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

LonelyNLost said:


> Thanks again for all of your help. You are very logical and are making me think about what an idiot I am being. It's so hard to let go of expectations. But that's what I have to do. I'll try my best to turn things around. Any books you can recommend?


 I am not the best with books, but if you haven't read his needs, her needs then you could pick that up, just to give you a little insight into what he needs altogether. 

Don't get down on yourself, you are in here trying to save your marriage, he is lucky that you care enough to take in advice and try to implement it. A lot of people don't care enough to do that. 

P.S> try the sexy comment in a way you are comfortable with. "Wow, you have some big muscles baby, you look hot in that shirt, something about you today is making me wet, something. Try it and see how he responds. Even if it sounds completey ridiculous, it might make him laugh, and humor helps.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

DawnD said:


> I am not the best with books, but if you haven't read his needs, her needs then you could pick that up, just to give you a little insight into what he needs altogether.
> 
> Don't get down on yourself, you are in here trying to save your marriage, he is lucky that you care enough to take in advice and try to implement it. A lot of people don't care enough to do that.
> 
> P.S> try the sexy comment in a way you are comfortable with. "Wow, you have some big muscles baby, you look hot in that shirt, something about you today is making me wet, something. Try it and see how he responds. Even if it sounds completey ridiculous, it might make him laugh, and humor helps.


I actually just finished His Needs Her Needs. And I read the 5 Love Languages. I'll try. He just came home from fishing with our son and is trying to stay busy and avoid me. I was helping him with what he was doing and I didn't want to be a puppy dog and follow him around, so I went inside. He just cleaned out his dresser, and found a note from me. Started to read it and I asked what it was and he threw it back in the drawer. I asked if it was a good or bad note and he said it wasn't good. So I asked if I could throw it away and he said he didn't throw it away because he thought it might hurt my feelings. So I took it and read it. It was a cry for a change, sometime right before I found out about the EA. I wrote it because I was upset that he wouldn't spend time with me. I threw that away and asked him to throw the letter away from the other night and not keep negative stuff around. But we haven't gotten into any other talk today. I just want to have fun with him again!


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

LonelyNLost said:


> I just want to have fun with him again!


Think back to what you guys used to do that got you both laughing and having a good time. It can be something ridiculous. I squirted chocolate sauce on my H, and it is one of my fondest memories of us. Funny, but also just pure humor and love, no stress, nothing to fight or talk about just laughing and sex.


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

Okay, I've tried my best today to lighten the mood. It's ironic that when I'm down he's able to act cool, and I'm able to act cool when he's down. But we're dealing with it in different ways. You might get on me about this, but I did write down basically all of the mistakes I've made. I apologized for my impatience, the pressure, the timelines and expectations, placing my happiness in his hands, negative communication, not loving him enough, holding the past against him, and my insecurity. It all poured out, and mostly I did it as a way to solidify my resolve in my mind. However, he saw me writing and is expecting it. So I told him I would give him that option, and it's up to him if he wants to read it. I did word it so that he knew that these were my mistakes and he shouldn't feel guilty for any of it. I also told him he didn't need to read it tonight or tomorrow or the night after. But he'll read it right away I'm sure. I ended it with the piece above that I wrote about how I'm going to try my best to turn things around, and that there's no pressure for him to join me at this time. I hope he takes it sincerely. 

I can take and receive as much advice as I have here, most of it great, but I think some things I have to do and learn on my own. Just as every relationship has its own dynamic. He is also still open to finishing our conversation from last night. To which I won't get deep, I'll just stay focused on how we got here and what needs to be done to gain those tools needed for a successful and fulfilling marriage. He says he prefers to talk that way, and he feels bad for feeling this. I told him it was okay, that I actually liked it. He's more likely to open up and respond that way. And we had a genuinely decent conversation. He has now done the dishes and retreated to the kids' bedrooms to play with them. But hopefully we can just watch some tv together tonight. But I'm seriously crashing tonight after staying up until 5am. I'm not 20 anymore! 

I appreciate you so much, Dawn. It's nice to know someone understands and is willing to whip me into shape. Thank you for sharing your story.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

LonelyNLost said:


> Okay, I've tried my best today to lighten the mood. It's ironic that when I'm down he's able to act cool, and I'm able to act cool when he's down. But we're dealing with it in different ways. You might get on me about this, but I did write down basically all of the mistakes I've made. I apologized for my impatience, the pressure, the timelines and expectations, placing my happiness in his hands, negative communication, not loving him enough, holding the past against him, and my insecurity. It all poured out, and mostly I did it as a way to solidify my resolve in my mind. However, he saw me writing and is expecting it. So I told him I would give him that option, and it's up to him if he wants to read it. I did word it so that he knew that these were my mistakes and he shouldn't feel guilty for any of it. I also told him he didn't need to read it tonight or tomorrow or the night after. But he'll read it right away I'm sure. I ended it with the piece above that I wrote about how I'm going to try my best to turn things around, and that there's no pressure for him to join me at this time. I hope he takes it sincerely. I don't think thats a bad thing. I think that you were generally writing it down to get it out, and if he wants to read it, that's great! It is completely opposite of what could be perceived as pushing information onto him. Thats really a quite healthy way to write if you ask me.
> 
> I can take and receive as much advice as I have here, most of it great, but I think some things I have to do and learn on my own. Just as every relationship has its own dynamic. Of course! You know him best, and I think you honestly know when its getting too overwhelming for him. I did too, but it still took me a bit to back off and realize that I had to work with him not against him. I think you will be able to read him perfectly when he needs a breather. You are already doing that now. He is also still open to finishing our conversation from last night. To which I won't get deep, I'll just stay focused on how we got here and what needs to be done to gain those tools needed for a successful and fulfilling marriage. He says he prefers to talk that way, and he feels bad for feeling this. I told him it was okay, that I actually liked it. He's more likely to open up and respond that way. And we had a genuinely decent conversation. He has now done the dishes and retreated to the kids' bedrooms to play with them. But hopefully we can just watch some tv together tonight. But I'm seriously crashing tonight after staying up until 5am. I'm not 20 anymore!
> 
> I appreciate you so much, Dawn. It's nice to know someone understands and is willing to whip me into shape. Thank you for sharing your story.


Best of luck LNL, keep your chin up you really are doing fantastic. No one is born with any of this knowledge ( would be a crap ton easier if we were though, right?) One day at a time and I think he will come around!


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

DawnD said:


> Best of luck LNL, keep your chin up you really are doing fantastic. No one is born with any of this knowledge ( would be a crap ton easier if we were though, right?) One day at a time and I think he will come around!


Thanks, again. I went with a very low key card for V-Day and just said that I know things aren't the best, but that let's just have fun for a day. I'd give him whatever he wanted. I also did the 365 love notes thing (where you write 365 love notes on slips of paper and put them in a jar, he reads one each day for a year). He was made that I did something and he didn't as far as gifts. I told him in the morning I just wanted to put the issues on ignore for a day and hang out and try to have fun. The evening was fine, except that he lost his heirloom wedding band (that his grandpa, dad, and he got married with, although it doesn't serve as his current band). 

So after the kids were in bed I presented my card and gift, and he was saying he felt like a piece of crap because he didn't get me anything but a card. He goes and gets me the card, and I couldn't hold it together. It isn't even a V-day card. It's like a "troubled love" card. It's all about how if I could go back to when the days were good and neither of us knew hurt, I'd hold you longer and appreciate you more and never let the hurt happen.  Then he wrote inside how he's sorry things are this way and that we are both hurting, but that he loves me. And he's sorry that there's so much uncertainty. Then he felt bad that it made me cry. It was so depressing. We had a nice little talk, not an argument, or too deep of a discussion, but a nice little heart to heart. It hurts, but at least it was fairly positive interaction. He hasn't read the letter yet, but I'm holding myself together the best I can. 

He apologized for ruining the night and my V-day, and I told him he didn't. I just wanted to not deal with it, and I understand where he was and that I wasn't upset with him. We talked for awhile and it was late, so I told him I was going to bed. I mentioned that I was totally going to give him a BJ to cheer him up, but now we're both down. So we're laying there and he's quiet and I ask him if he's thinking about that and he says, "It will make us both feel better" LOL. So we messed around and then took a shower together and just held each other. It was nice. Then he texted me this morning and said he was sorry again about v-day. I told him not to worry about it. We'll see what tonight brings. Hoping today is better.


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