# "Manning up" towards a man... Will he get it?



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I am stumbling over what to do next...

Me and OH have barely spoken for three days now. I guess if you were to put a tag on it, it would be me "manning up" of sorts. I had it out with OH over his neglect of showing affection, and neglect of even trying to meet me halfway as one of my primary needs. He has brought up reasons such as "he's just not like that" and he "can live without it." Ok, I can sort of get that, but he doesn't or WON'T get that I need this from him, that he could put in the effort.

He has said our sex life is good, he is happy with that side. He did say he didn't feel appreciated by me, about what he does (going to work). I have been making efforts of late to consciously show my appreciation, but obviously haven't been saying or doing the right things. I have noticed however (a very "Mars" thing) that if we argue or fall out about something, it's like he wipes any trace of my efforts out of his mind like I've never showed any appreciation at all and I have to start from zero. Frustrating.

We have been civil but nothing more. I got angry the other day about his not wanting to try and he said how could he WANT to be affectionate with me when I acted like that (angry)? I said in my mind at this point it didn't make any difference because the usual me didn't solicit any affectionate responses from him so... *shrugs*

He isn't moving or making any efforts. I'm naturally warm towards him and he's a cool on the thermostat and it's really hard to keep the temperature turned down. He has been doing little gestures like fetching me ice cream and favourite drinks (I haven't asked for these) which I think are an attempt to reach out without actually saying words. I am just going about my business, responding when he replies and discussing what needs to be about the kids but that's it.

The thing is, well- this is really difficult! I feel like I am doing the right thing because to go back would be saying I accept his attitude and behaviour as ok when it's not. But I guess I just need some confirmation that I am going about this the best way. Will his guy senses get what's going on because I know how stubborn he is and this could go on for a while...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Is the issue that:
- Touch means "sex" to him and
- You need a certain amount of non-sexual touch?

Or am I oversimplifying? 

BTW - While the "physical" side of our marriage is excellent, and the quality of sex is incredible (quantity has been a bit light the last 2 years), we spend more total time in non-sexual affection than in sexual affection. And it feels AWESOME. For both of us. 

That said - if she were to starve me sexually - the affection would stop. I am her husband, not her girl friend. 

If it were me, I wouldn't get mad I would simply have a consequence based conversation that goes like this:
- Affection is like a type of slow fuse foreplay for me
- A lack of affection reduces my desire levels
- I need hugs without being groped, or having you grind on me
- I need to hold hands when we watch tv/movies
- I also need .... 




tobio said:


> I am stumbling over what to do next...
> 
> Me and OH have barely spoken for three days now. I guess if you were to put a tag on it, it would be me "manning up" of sorts. I had it out with OH over his neglect of showing affection, and neglect of even trying to meet me halfway as one of my primary needs. He has brought up reasons such as "he's just not like that" and he "can live without it." Ok, I can sort of get that, but he doesn't or WON'T get that I need this from him, that he could put in the effort.
> 
> ...


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Hmm- to a large degree, yes touch means sex to him. I don't think that it is ALL about the sex but he has said previously he doesn't see the point in having, say, a bit of a hot kissing sesh when he's got in from work because he'll get all worked up and we won't be able to do anything about it. I see that as something in itself- it *could* lead to something but doesn't HAVE to, it's awesome just in and of itself.

The only thing he really has initiated recently is back massage. He will only do this at bedtime as he says that's when it's "most useful" ("to help you relax") but I know he wants it to lead to something. I don't mind if he has that desire from it but it would be good if he could be affectionate just because he wanted to rather than it ALL being a precursor to sex.

Our sex life is frequent (prior to this there was sexual contact every day) and we are both happy with that side. We haven't had opportunity this last few days because of babies waking up, me going to bed first through being tired, but if he DID try and initiate now, I would turn him down. Not through punishment but because I cannot share myself with him when he demeans and makes fun of my needs.

I've had a similar convo with him a few days ago to the one you mentioned. This resulted in him bringing out the reasons why he wasn't affectionate- it seems as it "doesn't come naturally" that somehow excuses him from having to try? Out came the tirade against me- "you're so high maintenance", "you're never happy", "I can't do anything right", "people just don't do that once they've been together a while" and the the "I'm going to leave if this carries on." WTF- why is asking for affection so unreasonable to just TRY for him?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Tobio, as I understand it “appreciation” is high on a man’s needs to “feel loved”. But I think that’s true in just about all situations, not just marriage. For example the boss that shows true appreciation for jobs well done has motivated reports.

Appreciation is certainly high on my needs. Some call it “admiration” but I don’t. It would be nice to be admired, but without appreciation then I don’t feel “good”.

Your H is telling you he doesn’t feel appreciated and I’m guessing therefore he doesn’t feel loved by you. If he doesn’t feel appreciated by you then he doesn’t know what it is you value about him and it follows because of that he’ll feel insecure in his relationship with you.

The way ahead? Basically two things. First, sit down for an hour or so and imagine what your life would be like without your H in it. When you’ve done that you’ll know what your H “brings to the table” sort of thing. This is called “counting your blessings”. Think on it this way “We don’t know what we’ve got until we lose it”. So imagine you’ve lost your H through separation and divorce or that he has passed away.

Second, after you’ve come to realise exactly what your H brings to the table (including he’s love for you) ask him how he would like you to show your appreciation for the blessings he brings your way.

Bob


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Gosh, the whole trying to make it work while I am angry... Have had to say more than once that it will work better if you try it after I have cooled off LOL 

My advice would be to tell him you really thought you were doing what he needed, but missed the man code and ask him what exactly would make him feel appreciated. let him know the same. But try to do it in a conversation. Because you are both a bit angry, that will be difficult, maybe try it over dinner OUT where it is less likely to get to a shouting match (no one wants the world to here it all right?)

My personal joy would be if he could have written it down. Any conversation over a very long period of time landed in instant reaction, then quickly escallating to yelling and MAD. If it is written, you get to think about it a bit as you write (or ramble which is fine too) then the other in response can think for a minute, look again, and maybe change things that aren't productive.

Ah... to give advice to others... LMAO not saying this was MY life, though I think I tried to make it so more than once, it sounds right though LOL


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

woodstock said:


> My personal joy would be if he could have written it down. Any conversation over a very long period of time landed in instant reaction, then quickly escallating to yelling and MAD. If it is written, you get to think about it a bit as you write (or ramble which is fine too) then the other in response can think for a minute, look again, and maybe change things that aren't productive.L


Woodstock, great advice. If both parties have a bit of empathy, a letter will work wonders when angry.

What AFEH said is a good idea.

MEM, again, spot on on your step-by-step how-to's 



tobio said:


> Hmm- to a large degree, yes touch means sex to him. I don't think that it is ALL about the sex but he has said previously he doesn't see the point in having, say, a bit of a hot kissing sesh when he's got in from work because he'll get all worked up and we won't be able to do anything about it. I see that as something in itself- it *could* lead to something but doesn't HAVE to, it's awesome just in and of itself.


Touch also means sex to me. However, I do engage in making out without expecting it to end up in sex. The thing is, you have to go in hoping somewhere in the back of your mind for sex, while expecting it to only feel great.

This way, you won't get blue balls and even if you do, doesn't matter, you'll just go help myself. It is all about the expectations men have. Men feel rejected if the (unfairly) expect sex. He needs to take that out of the equation when making out, but still watch body language. Have had it quite often that she would just want to make out and suddenly there is a shift in her body language that indicates she doesn't want to stop there.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tobio,
You are fully entitled to ask for this - you really are. I am just going to suggest a "way" to have this conversation that might go better. 

Let me start with something. I have actually been on the receiving end of ALL these comments on occasion. So you get the benefit of my memory (and it is pretty accurate) of conversations from 20 years ago and now. 

Today at 48 - I can give my W a killer full body massage - for an hour - and while I get "turned on", it is not the hellfire of young lust. I do get turned on, but on the nights we have already agreed it is an "off" night, I never try to turn it into sex. 

That way she is not thinking, "wait" is he rubbing me there to try to get me hot? Is he getting hot? Is he going to be annoyed if we don't? That never happens because we already know this is an "off" night. And the next day I am a bit more testosterone fueled. Nothing wrong with that - makes for a better strength training session if I happen to be lifting. And the next night, if I make it clear I want to play, we play. 

Whole different deal 10 or 20 years ago. Back then - the amount of sexual frustration I would have felt from doing that. Or kissing for 10 minutes and getting really wound up. 

If I had to do it all over again, I likely would do a LOT of it differently. Actually the easiest time for me to have done what she wanted would have been right after sex. Other than simple stuff. We always sat next to each other or laid next to each other watching tv. We DID hug every day when I got home from work. As for kissing that did not lead to sex - never happened. Too hard for me. 

I will tell you this. I don't know what your situation is. That said, while my W and I struggled a bit on the physical side she never, not once did a "shut down". Everyone has a different situation. Mine was - "overall I am bringing my A game ever day, if that isn't good enough I will accept that verdict and move on". And given my very simplified view of female behavior (which is maybe the most complex subject in the universe), if a woman won't have regular sex with you, she just isn't that into you. As to why - it matters a LOT if you are being lazy. It kind of doesn't matter that much if you are giving your all. So while my W DEFINITELY had legitimate grievances with me. She chose not to go the nuclear option by using sex to let me know "just how upset she was". Well actually she did "test" that approach a couple times. I think she quickly became convinced where it would end. 





tobio said:


> Hmm- to a large degree, yes touch means sex to him. I don't think that it is ALL about the sex but he has said previously he doesn't see the point in having, say, a bit of a hot kissing sesh when he's got in from work because he'll get all worked up and we won't be able to do anything about it. I see that as something in itself- it *could* lead to something but doesn't HAVE to, it's awesome just in and of itself.
> 
> The only thing he really has initiated recently is back massage. He will only do this at bedtime as he says that's when it's "most useful" ("to help you relax") but I know he wants it to lead to something. I don't mind if he has that desire from it but it would be good if he could be affectionate just because he wanted to rather than it ALL being a precursor to sex.
> 
> ...


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

Have you read the book His Needs, Her Needs by Dr. Willard Harley?

Your story contains three of the needs he identifies in his book - Sexual fulfillment, Affection, Admiration (Appreciation). He defines the 5 major needs of males/females that are most likely to be unmet after marriage.

Men:
Sexual Fulfillment - Admiration - Companionship - Attractiveness - Domestic Support

Women:
Affection - Openness & Honesty - Conversation - Family Commitment - Financial Security

This book could prompt an open conversation about each of your needs and how you can work together to make it better.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Mmmmmm maybe. While I can appreciate the whole 'men are always ready for sex thing', it implies at least an armed truce between you. Sometimes you just can't beat him over the head nonstop then jerk his leash around for physical benefits. At some point, the constant 'testing' gets tedious.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Mmmmmm maybe. While I can appreciate the whole 'men are always ready for sex thing', it implies at least an armed truce between you. Sometimes you just can't beat him over the head nonstop then jerk his leash around for physical benefits. At some point, the constant 'testing' gets tedious.


Crude, and successfully got at least my attention.
I don't think anyone here was implying that, especially not the OP.
On the contrary, the concern is needs being *mutually* met.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

It gets better... Yesterday we had to visit my parents. It was a wrench trying to act "normally" but managed it. He tried to be playful a couple of times but I let it go without making a fuss. When we got back in the car he started to chat, I was being cool and he asked what my problem was? I replied, the same as it has been the last few days. He said well get used to it because things aren't changing round here... And that was it.

Last night he slept on the sofa. He didn't say, he just did after I went to bed.

A couple of points to cover...

I *do* appreciate my OH. The suggestion from Bob about thinking what he brings to the table; great, one I have done a while ago. I do make an effort to show my appreciation, but I am thinking maybe the things I am doing are not what his love language is that he NEEDS. I need to ask him directly what things he would like me to do to show appreciation rather than what *I* think he would like.

I don't mind if OH initiates affection that he hopes will lead to sex. Up until this, we have had very frequent sexual contact (every day) and are evenly matched on that score. Tbh if he tried to make a move after a back rub I wouldn't mind, and he wouldn't be surprised if I did! The sort of affection I am thinking of is stuff like a kiss when he gets in from work, hugs, curling up on the sofa together, hair stroking, basically anything like that to show affection when sex isn't on the cards- ie when the kids are with us or in the evenings (older kids going through a phase of coming downstairs in the evenings and OH isn't really interested in anything happening before bedtime...)

I get what you said MEM about if your wife shut down. I won't get into the logistics of that because that is you and her. I don't deal in tit for tat, I've gone past that stage of my life. What I am saying is that sex is, for me, something special and amazing which I share with the most special person in my life. I do not share it with someone who belittles and actively ignores my needs. I have done it before, and it feels empty. I feel like a vessel for a man when that happens. He may be getting his wave of love and bonding out of it but it makes me want to cry. So I don't do it. Not as a punishment you understand, but more a protective mechanism. It also sends mixed messages to me- I'm angry with you, angry enough to turn that thermostat right down but here you go, let's have sex?

The His Needs, Her Needs sounds like something that might be useful, shall look it up.

I feel really angry right now, more so than I was. This is weird for me because I am not usually an "angry" person, it gets channeled into other emotions. But I feel like it is turning into a game for him, he's playing to see how long I'll last out before I give and start being warm again. I have been reading the advice but not sure how to use it at this point- I feel that sitting him down to talk would be me expressing needs he already knows about and doesn't try to meet (the ones that "won't be changing soon...")


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Crude, and successfully got at least my attention.
> I don't think anyone here was implying that, especially not the OP.
> On the contrary, the concern is needs being *mutually* met.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess that makes me a hopeless romantic. I can't muster the enthusiasm for sex if I'm angry at her or feeling particularly irritated by her. I have to feel that she's at least more interested in being with me than mere hate-banging.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

I would LOVE if physical affection did not have to give him the idea, need, drive for sex sometimes but ahhh... wouldn't we all love a utopia? LOL As much as it gets me from time to time, I accept that the physical touch is just gonna take him there, and being as sympathetic and empathetic as I am, I USUALLY oblige. That said, I don't keep it a secret that I wish it didn't every time, and low and behold, holy crap.... it has worked (might not need half a hand to count how many times but hey... once surprises me LOL) He would I know I am aware that he has to fight certain things to give me that, and I DO make it known I understand what he is giving, and frankly, because of the struggle there, I appreciate it MORE, and try to remember to say that (and return the favor the next time) Not an equal balance, but not everything in a relationship is meant to be equal (though it can balance all the same)

I will also admit that being a sexual person myself, the amount of times that physical touch has not made ME want to go there is maybe only double the amount of times I was gifted with it NOT going there LOL


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You need to show him this post. 

Sorry for being "slow". I get it now. You are asking for very basic stuff. That is completely fair. 




tobio said:


> It gets better... Yesterday we had to visit my parents. It was a wrench trying to act "normally" but managed it. He tried to be playful a couple of times but I let it go without making a fuss. When we got back in the car he started to chat, I was being cool and he asked what my problem was? I replied, the same as it has been the last few days. He said well get used to it because things aren't changing round here... And that was it.
> 
> Last night he slept on the sofa. He didn't say, he just did after I went to bed.
> 
> ...


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

We talked it out. We made up and I feel we are in a good place.

The debrief... Well, it seems for him this wasn't just about being affectionate. It was mixed up with some other stuff, the main one being he feels I am "never happy." I know this comes from a sense that we don't always seems to resolve issues completely which leads to more angst further down the road.

He interestingly didn't interpret me being cool as... well, me being cool. He felt I was being moody, quiet, irritating, etc... I can honestly say I didn't do ANYTHING deliberately to annoy or irritate him, I simply withdrew. Fascinated at the different thinking there.

The real sticking point was how once he opened up, he kept coming back to saying why on earth would he WANT to be affectionate when I had been acting like I was acting? I kept trying to push home that the way I had been usually didn't seem to be eliciting any kind of affection from him and did he not see it was madness for me to continue as I was, carrying on the same behaviour hoping for different results?

He really couldn't get his head around this. In his head there had only been an issue since I radically addressed it a few days ago, he didn't understand it in the sense that it was something that had been bothering me for a while (we have had discussions about this a few months ago.)

The upshot was we actually had a very productive conversation about what we both wanted. I think it was insightful for him, we were touching on the concept of love languages which did seem to throw him a little, actually being able to put a framework on how he shows affection in the ways he THINKS I want as compared to how I NEED him to.

I actually really like being able to say that I "need" something without it sounding needy or manipulative, and he said some things from the heart which were quite insightful which led me to believe that he isn't quite as much the confident laid back guy I thought he was. Something for me to work on too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

In the end, you lowered the thermostat and got an honest conversation.

Good job.

And - in referencing what I said in the other forum - you didn't simply "depend" on him for your emotional health.

Congratulations. One big step forward.

You should post it in the Victory thread.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> I guess that makes me a hopeless romantic. I can't muster the enthusiasm for sex if I'm angry at her or feeling particularly irritated by her. I have to feel that she's at least more interested in being with me than mere hate-banging.


That makes sense. You're probably not the only one.

Tobio, I'm glad you and your H talked about things!

Keep up the cooler temp if it gets his attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Thanks for the comments. It has been pretty difficult and I'm still mulling it over, but in a positive, "how can I/we move forward?" kind of way. A super good thing is that I DO feel this time we put our cards on the table and really both put it out there and came to some sort of resolution for both of us.

And Conrad- what you said about not depending on him for my emotional health? I think those words I will carry with me. I know I have entwined my sense of "self" with our relationship- which I think is really easy to do when you become a stay at home parent- and it took a real effort to "separate" me from the relationship. And do you know what? In doing that, he said some things, without prompting, that made me realise just how much he loves and values me.

Credam, I think I shall probably keep on with a cooler temp for my sanity!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

tobio said:


> Thanks for the comments. It has been pretty difficult and I'm still mulling it over, but in a positive, "how can I/we move forward?" kind of way. A super good thing is that I DO feel this time we put our cards on the table and really both put it out there and came to some sort of resolution for both of us.
> 
> And Conrad- what you said about not depending on him for my emotional health? I think those words I will carry with me. I know I have entwined my sense of "self" with our relationship- which I think is really easy to do when you become a stay at home parent- and it took a real effort to "separate" me from the relationship. And do you know what? In doing that, he said some things, without prompting, that made me realise just how much he loves and values me.
> 
> Credam, I think I shall probably keep on with a cooler temp for my sanity!


Tobio,

I know my post wasn't met with "rave reviews", but my testimony was very personal - based on what has "worked" for us.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

tobio said:


> . I know I have entwined my sense of "self" with our relationship- which I think is really easy to do when you become a stay at home parent- and it took a real effort to "separate" me from the relationship. And do you know what? In doing that, he said some things, without prompting, that made me realise just how much he loves and values me.
> 
> Credam, I think I shall probably keep on with a cooler temp for my sanity!


it demonstrates that you are sure and certain of who you are, and that you are not coming to him to receive the affirmation you can give to yourself.
It may be that the less you show you need it from him, the more he'll give it to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> it demonstrates that you are sure and certain of who you are, and that you are not coming to him to receive the affirmation you can give to yourself.
> It may be that the less you show you need it from him, the more he'll give it to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The key difference is changing the perception of yourself in the eyes of the other - from needy child to capable adult.


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