# A house should look lived in, but what does that mean?



## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

How clean is too clean for a home?
How dirty is too dirty for a home??

This has been a huge and consistent issue in our home for 30 years.

My question is, and obviously this is going to vary from home to home, but how clean is too clean? 
Should adults be expected to clean up after themselves? Whats an acceptable percentage to clean? 

Example:
Someone makes a sandwich. How much of that should you clean up? 
*Should you just put the meat, condiments and bread away leaving the crumbs on the counter and leave your plate sitting wherever at when you're done eating?
*Should you put all of it away? Wipe the crumbs off the counter and put your plate in the dishwasher when finished eating? 
And then there's a few choices in between.

I'm curious to know what other peoples expectations are from their spouses, adult children visiting, or any adult children living with them, when it comes to personal responsibilities/cleaning up after themselves.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Everything put away including the plate in the dishwasher. I'm willing to definitely let the counter crumbs slide. For spouse and adult children visiting.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO, it means the home should not look like a museum. There should be personal items, art and mementos that have a story or meaning and were chosen because of that. Some homes look staged and impersonal, like hotel rooms. I do think a home should be reasonably clean and without a lot of clutter, but dealing with the last few dishes and crumbs should normally be reserved for when you have visitors, or a weekly cleaning.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Everything put away including the plate in the dishwasher. I'm willing to definitely let the counter crumbs slide. For spouse and adult children visiting.


Thats me too. Unless the whole house begins to have those "undone extras" piling up, then I melt a little and want things cleaned up. A reset so to speak.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, it means the home should not look like a museum. There should be personal items, art and mementos that have a story or meaning and were chosen because of that.


100% agreed!
I was visiting a home once that looked like we should be taking tours. No thanks! It made me nervous, 
Now don't get me wrong, I like the kitchen cleaned up at night. I like jackets hung up and wet towels off the floor. When I homeschooled our kids, there were more school crafts on our walls and tables than any other decor.  We would leave tents up for days! 
I am very aware that I am more neat than most people, and I am also aware that there will be toothpaste spit on the mirror and water all over the bathroom sink. Its life! 
Obviously I feel like I balance it all well. Obviously my family thinks I'm a neat freak! lol
I do like getting other peoples perspectives. It helps!


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I am ok with the plate by the sink or in the sink. However, everything should be put away and crumbs cleaned up. Crumbs are a bigger offender to me than a plate by the sink. If the plate is clear of food, I have no issue with it being left in a reasonable place until more dishwasher work is needed.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Tasorundo said:


> I am ok with the plate by the sink or in the sink. However, everything should be put away and crumbs cleaned up. Crumbs are a bigger offender to me than a plate by the sink. If the plate is clear of food, I have no issue with it being left in a reasonable place until more dishwasher work is needed.


We fight ants! It's just the wooded area we live in. I have never liked dirty dishes to be left in bedrooms or in other parts of the home. One of the kids bedrooms got ants so badly a few years back, I had to finally call the exterminator! Thats too messy IMO!
I could be more relaxed about the kitchen area!!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

They should clean it all up, especially food because it will draw ants, rats, and roaches. Other things that are nonfood, they should pick up after themselves and not leave a mess, but it should be okay for things to be out when in current use. A lot less cleaning up if everyone simply doesn't leave a mess behind.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I’ve always been a neat freak with considerably higher expectations than my family considers normal (if that makes you feel better).😉


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> They should clean it all up, especially food because it will draw ants, rats, and roaches. Other things that are nonfood, they should pick up after themselves and not leave a mess, but it should be okay for things to be out when in current use. A lot less cleaning up if everyone simply doesn't leave a mess behind.


I love hearing other peoples opinions. My family thinks I'm way too needy, to clean. A neat freak is what they call me. I obviously feel like I balance it well.
When they were kids I would encourage them to pick up their toys with me. Now that they are all adults, I just don't see why that stuff should be left for me or to be left to be stared at until it piles up enough that it's acceptable for me to clean it.
I don't know, I'm probably more in a mood today to ***** and gripe then to fix anything to be honest. I don't think it's unreasonable to bring in your jacket and either go hang it up, or if you do toss it on a chair don't get upset if somebody asks you to hang it up. I don't think it's OK for adult children to tell me that I'm too neat or to go off on me verbally when I ask them to throw their empty wrappers away.
If I hear one more time in the next 24 hrs that I am too neat, too emotional or overthink things I may just explode LOL
We have an adult child visiting, and she seems to be highly allergic to throwing empty bags away, or getting her dirty clothes out of the bathroom. She lives like this in her home, and when I visit I don't say a word to her. It's her home she can live however she wants. But here, I expect wet towels and dirty clothes to be grabbed when you exit the bathroom. And I don't expect to be told how people don't even want to come and visit me because Im too damn neat.
She made a sandwich and put everything away, left the mayonnaise knife on the counter with all of the crumbs. And before I typed us I found her plate back in the bedroom that she staying in.
I'll probably later wish that I never posted this, because I know I'm doing it out of emotions. But right now I'm very frustrated and just feeling like I need to find answers.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

How old is she?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mary L said:


> I don't expect to be told how people don't even want to come and visit me because Im too damn neat.


Tell them to stay at a nearby hotel or get an AirBnB rental.

Your house. Your rules. Don't like it? Stay elsewhere or stay home.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Openminded said:


> I’ve always been a neat freak with considerably higher expectations than my family considers normal (if that makes you feel better).😉


At least I know I’m not alone LOL


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm fairly chill, my wife is an anti-clutter freak. We've been fortunate to always been able to hire a cleaner, so at the very least we clean for the cleaning lady. 

When we have guests (no kids), as long as they keep their mess in guest room it's fine, outside of that not cool.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Livvie said:


> How old is she?


27 years old!!


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Mary L said:


> We fight ants! It's just the wooded area we live in. I have never liked dirty dishes to be left in bedrooms or in other parts of the home. One of the kids bedrooms got ants so badly a few years back, I had to finally call the exterminator! Thats too messy IMO!
> I could be more relaxed about the kitchen area!!


If the plate is free of food, then it can sit. I said in my post that an empty plate left by or in the sink is fine. If it has food all over it, no.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Prodigal said:


> Tell them to stay at a nearby hotel or get an AirBnB rental.
> 
> Your house. Your rules. Don't like it? Stay elsewhere or stay home.


That would be easy to do if my husband felt the same as I did. But he sides with the kids and thinks I'm ridiculous. He's never called me ridiculous. But he has definitely told me that I am way too neat and I drive people away because of it. He would never support me telling them to stay at a hotel or an Airbnb.
The last couple times kids have visited, I just do the best I can to ignore it until everybody goes home and then I clean. I'm left with hives, I melt. I do understand that's extreme, but we have a small house and it can get really bad when there's a group of people here. haha


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

CharlieParker said:


> I'm fairly chill, my wife is an anti-clutter freak. We've been fortunate to always been able to hire a cleaner, so at the very least we clean for the cleaning lady.
> 
> When we have guests (no kids), as long as they keep their mess in guest room it's fine, outside of that not cool.


There have been times I would give almost anything to be able to afford someone to clean my home. And I probably would clean for the cleaning lady LOL.
I am the cleaning lady, the cook, the gardener and our accountant for personal and business. And I homeschooled our kids. There were times when the kids were growing up that I would've loved to of had somebody come in once every week or two and just do the deep stuff.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mary L said:


> That would be easy to do if my husband felt the same as I did. But he sides with the kids and thinks I'm ridiculous. He's never called me ridiculous. But he has definitely told me that I am way too neat and I drive people away because of it. He would never support me telling them to stay at a hotel or an Airbnb.
> The last couple times kids have visited, I just do the best I can to ignore it until everybody goes home and then I clean. I'm left with hives, I melt. I do understand that's extreme, but we have a small house and it can get really bad when there's a group of people here. haha


Mess expands with the size of the house IMO — just more space for them to take over. And my experience has been that they do.

I was a messy teenager but I married young and immediately became a neat freak. My husband wasn’t, my child isn’t, and my grandchildren aren’t.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Mary L said:


> How clean is too clean for a home?
> How dirty is too dirty for a home??
> 
> This has been a huge and consistent issue in our home for 30 years.
> ...


Anyone should clean up after themselves, Non-adult children included. My kids have been cleaning up after themselves since they were 6.  Make a bowl of cereal put the cereal and milk away and rinse your bowl and put it in the dishwasher when they're done. Been doing their own laundry since they were 10. So talking adults they should be cleaning up after themselves completely always. But some people just weren't raised right.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Tasorundo said:


> If the plate is free of food, then it can sit. I said in my post that an empty plate left by or in the sink is fine. If it has food all over it, no.


Agreed. This is where I feel I can be more relaxed in the kitchen. Even a plate free of food I would like in the dishwasher, I could chill here a bit. Good advice.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Openminded said:


> Mess expands with the size of the house IMO — just more space for them to take over. And my experience has been that they do.
> 
> I was a messy teenager but I married young and immediately became a neat freak. My husband wasn’t, my child isn’t, and my grandchildren aren’t.


haha. then you understand!  I love them more than a clean home. There are days (like today) when I feel like Im coming out of my skin. There are messes everywhere.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mary L said:


> haha. then you understand!  I love them more than a clean home. There are days (like today) when I feel like Im coming out of my skin. There are messes everywhere.


Yes, indeed I do. There are times I tolerate it better than others but I wouldn’t say I tolerate it very well. Just the reality of being me.🙂


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Anyone should clean up after themselves, Non-adult children included. My kids have been cleaning up after themselves since they were 6. Make a bowl of cereal put the cereal and milk away and rinse your bowl and put it in the dishwasher when they're done. Been doing their own laundry since they were 10. So talking adults they should be cleaning up after themselves completely always. But some people just weren't raised right.


Yeah I could never get away with that. Not even close LOL. 
I clean everyone of my messes up. I just don't think it's anybody else's responsibility. I think it is fair to leave messes so other people can stare at them.
I just opened up the refrigerator about two minutes ago and somebody has spilled watermelon juice at the front of the refrigerator and it's running down the outside bottom freezer drawer. And they just walked away from it. There is nobody in my home right now under the age of 20. But when I nicely asked if anybody saw this mess, and if the person who made the mess would clean it up, people just stared at me like a deer stuck in headlights. Nobody knew anything about the mess, and they seem openly agitated that I'm making such a big deal about a little bit of spill. I just had my son asked me why I thought something like that was such a big mess and was it worth interrupting a game for. 
This is just a normal day in our home. It drives me crazy.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Openminded said:


> Yes, indeed I do. There are times I tolerate it better than others but I wouldn’t say I tolerate it very well. Just the reality of being me.🙂


Well sad. Most days I tolerate it just fine. But if I have had days of not sleeping, which I'm going through menopause so it happens, or if I'm sick, or like this where we have a couple different kids visiting. And there's just messes everywhere and it's been like this for two days. Then I start melting. Obviously I can't say anything or I'm causing a riff. 
You would think as many walks that I have went on in the last two days I would've lost 20 pounds LOL

okay, at least I know I'm not crazy. There may not be an answer, but at least I'm not crazy. Because so many times in situations like this, I feel like I am crazy. My husband has told me so many times that if he and our kids think this way and I think that way, I hav etc be seeing it wrong. There's more of them than me. So how can I be right and all of them be wrong?
There are days that I question my very own sanity.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

They make a mess. You clean it up. Since you are the clean/tidy one is this dynamic, they don't see their messes as a big deal. You'll fix it. Your husband doesn't have your back. He's in their camp. I wouldn't give a crap if he didn't like them staying elsewhere. I'd tell them to take their messy asses to a rental. Let them slop up someplace else.

I see this as a form of disrespect. They know how you feel. Obviously, they don't care.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Prodigal said:


> They make a mess. You clean it up. Since you are the clean/tidy one is this dynamic, they don't see their messes as a big deal. You'll fix it. Your husband doesn't have your back. He's in their camp. I wouldn't give a crap if he didn't like them staying elsewhere. I'd tell them to take their messy asses to a rental. Let them slop up someplace else.
> 
> I see this as a form of disrespect. They know how you feel. Obviously, they don't care.


I completely agree with you. It's just easier to deal with it and clean it up when they're gone. Whenever I have "put my foot down" it has caused a division in our home.
The last time our daughter visited, it turned into a war zone. And I did tell her the next time she came to stay she may want to think about an Airbnb. My husband shot me a look like I was being ridiculous. But we never talked about it.
Now here we are with the same thing. 
Definitely does not have my back. He thinks any level of cleaning up after himself just takes every ounce of energy that he has. He constantly reminds me how he does it all for me. And how hard of a struggle it is to live up to my expectations.
Probably shouldn't be on here. Im just complaining. I am not in a very good headspace. I am just spinning today.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Mary L said:


> I love hearing other peoples opinions. My family thinks I'm way too needy, to clean. A neat freak is what they call me. I obviously feel like I balance it well.
> When they were kids I would encourage them to pick up their toys with me. Now that they are all adults, I just don't see why that stuff should be left for me or to be left to be stared at until it piles up enough that it's acceptable for me to clean it.
> I don't know, I'm probably more in a mood today to *** and gripe then to fix anything to be honest. I don't think it's unreasonable to bring in your jacket and either go hang it up, or if you do toss it on a chair don't get upset if somebody asks you to hang it up. I don't think it's OK for adult children to tell me that I'm too neat or to go off on me verbally when I ask them to throw their empty wrappers away.
> If I hear one more time in the next 24 hrs that I am too neat, too emotional or overthink things I may just explode LOL
> ...


And now that she's allowed to do it, the kids will want to too. I think you get ahead of it by telling her before the snack or whatever, and direct it to everyone, Be sure you clean up everything afterwards and wipe the counter. Same way with bath. "The towels are in the cabinet. Once you're done drying off, please put them on the washing machine or in the hamper." 

Or do what every single one of my relatives would have done and say, "You kids are making too big a mess indoors. Go outside and play until I call you for dinner."


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And now that she's allowed to do it, the kids will want to too. I think you get ahead of it by telling her before the snack or whatever, and direct it to everyone, Be sure you clean up everything afterwards and wipe the counter. Same way with bath. "The towels are in the cabinet. Once you're done drying off, please put them on the washing machine or in the hamper."
> 
> Or do what every single one of my relatives would have done and say, "You kids are making too big a mess indoors. Go outside and play until I call you for dinner."


Those are the types of things that I say that my family says I'm up there butt about.
I have a dry erase board on the fridge. Since we have 2 kids visiting, I thought it would be a great idea to put people in charge of certain spaces.
So it reads:
Child #1 (I don't want to share names)
living room
Couch and floors are picked up, no dirty clothes or toys. All dishes to the kitchen
Child #2
Bathroom
Notify mom if there is urine on the floor, wipe off sink, make sure towels are hung up or in the hamper.
Child #3 (he lives here)
kitchen with mom
Dishes are in the dishwasher, run it if needed before bed. Counters and stove are wiped off.

The request is, at the end of the day each person will be responsible for that area. Nobody has to clean it, just make sure things are picked up and fairly organized. Nothing has to be done to my standards, I can take care of all that when everybody goes home.

It's simple, it would only take a couple minutes from each person. I've not hounded anybody,
I asked my husband before everybody came here to please back me up. He said he. would, and he understood. He agreed it was a great idea! When I asked him last night as we were going to bed if he's noticed any of the things not getting done, he told me he thought it was getting done. I mentioned a few hot spots and he said he hadn't noticed. I asked if he noticed that they had not helped with the areas I gave them, he said he thought they had. 
I won't say another thing. Well, except to vent to all of you who are willing to listen to my rant. 🤣🤣

Honestly I don't think there's really any answer. I think I'm just on here to ***** today.
Can we say day drinking? Glass of wine later, I feel a little bit more calm.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

You are not wrong. 

I admit I hate housekeeping, but I like a clean house. 

My kids are 10 and 12. They are mess makers. I also struggle with them picking after themselves. But at 27 I would expect them to be responsible enough to not only pick after themselves but also offer to clean or cook for me! LoL!! That's what I did/do when I go visit my mom! 

I was a messy kid. I've always hated housekeeping. My sister has always been a clean freak. Her house is very clean and organized. My mom did everything for us, I remember giving her a hard time because she asked me to wash dishes. Karma got me because now I'm stuck with two mess makers! 

My kids are not allowed to eat in their rooms. I don't like them eating in the living room but I let that slide. I know I'm going to find wrappers, or dirty cups in there. They have to put dirty dishes in the sink. They have to help with laundry and clean their bathroom. I don't clean their rooms. I go in there to collect old clothing to donate, but I don't fix their beds or their mess. I yell when they leave clothes in the bathroom. They bring the trash and recycle cans out. My son helps cutting the grass. They do all that with a frown on their faces, and I have to repeat directions 100 times.

I understand my kids are still young but yours at 27 doing the same? I don't know how you do it. I would be yelling the whole day! 

No you need to let them know you are not their maid and explain the rules of your house. I think it's disrespectful the way they expect you to clean their mess!


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Mary L said:


> Well sad. Most days I tolerate it just fine. But if I have had days of not sleeping, which I'm going through menopause so it happens, or if I'm sick, or like this where we have a couple different kids visiting. And there's just messes everywhere and it's been like this for two days. Then I start melting. Obviously I can't say anything or I'm causing a riff.
> You would think as many walks that I have went on in the last two days I would've lost 20 pounds LOL
> 
> okay, at least I know I'm not crazy. There may not be an answer, but at least I'm not crazy. Because so many times in situations like this, I feel like I am crazy. My husband has told me so many times that if he and our kids think this way and I think that way, I hav etc be seeing it wrong. There's more of them than me. So how can I be right and all of them be wrong?
> There are days that I question my very own sanity.


Hey they might be adults but if they're going to act like children treat them that way. If my kids are sitting around and I find a mess they made lying around I shut off the internet router until it's cleaned up. That usually gets it cleaned up fast.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think you should change the bathroom list.

If you find URINE ON THE FLOOR NOTIFY MOM??????????

How about, if you find urine on the floor get a paper towel and bathroom cleaner and WIPE IT UP.

Mom isn't the default pee cleaner. No.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Livvie said:


> I think you should change the bathroom list.
> 
> If you find URINE ON THE FLOOR NOTIFY MOM??????????
> 
> ...


Yes! What the heck! 

My 12 year old makes a mess around the toilet and he cleans it up. I tell him I am not touching your pee. You did it, you clean it. Period. He doesn't do it and he gets grounded.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> You are not wrong.
> 
> I admit I hate housekeeping, but I like a clean house.
> _SAME!!_
> ...


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Hey they might be adults but if they're going to act like children treat them that way. If my kids are sitting around and I find a mess they made lying around I shut off the internet router until it's cleaned up. That usually gets it cleaned up fast.


And that's what I believe my husband should do. If I do that, it's five against one. I can't take those numbers


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> Yes! What the heck!
> 
> My 12 year old makes a mess around the toilet and he cleans it up. I tell him I am not touching your pee. You did it, you clean it. Period. He doesn't do it and he gets grounded.





Livvie said:


> I think you should change the bathroom list.
> 
> If you find URINE ON THE FLOOR NOTIFY MOM??????????
> 
> ...


I may not be as far off as my families telling me I am.
I completely agree. But nobody will admit to the messes. And it's obviously unfair of me to expect anyone to clean up a mess that they don't deem 100% theirs. (that was sarcasm!!)

The only reason why I even put that on there is because the last time we had a household of people it seem like every time I went to the bathroom I was finding urine on the toilet or beside the toilet. Everybody one to blame our grandson who is five. And it could've been him. But there have been times that we've had messes and he's not been here.
I know I'm in a very *****y mood today, but I am extremely thankful to know that I'm not insane


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I detest housework, and occasionally have someone in to deep clean. But I really think the best approach to it is just to teach people not to leave things laying around to begin with. That they have to pick up everything and that everything has a place it's supposed to go, especially shoes and toys and stuff like that. It's just that the house will stay clean so much longer even if all you do is not leave something laying around.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> Yes! What the heck!
> 
> My 12 year old makes a mess around the toilet and he cleans it up. I tell him I am not touching your pee. You did it, you clean it. Period. He doesn't do it and he gets grounded.


I believe this is how it should work! I have been told for years that when I stand on these things, I am causing more problems than I am helping. No one else is upset but me... UGH!!!


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I detest housework, and occasionally have someone in to deep clean. But I really think the best approach to it is just to teach people not to leave things laying around to begin with. That they have to pick up everything and that everything has a place it's supposed to go, especially shoes and toys and stuff like that. It's just that the house will stay clean so much longer even if all you do is not leave something laying around.


AGREED!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your problem absolutely did begin with your husband — just as mine did. My husband didn’t care about any of that (neither did his mom) and our child, and then our grandchildren, picked up on his attitude that a non-messy house is not important.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Mary L said:


> And that's what I believe my husband should do. If I do that, it's five against one. I can't take those numbers


There's not a fight. You're all guilty at times so you all suffer when one of you does x which you know the rules on. If you don't like it you're adults and there is plenty of vacant apartments in the area. My Wifi app actually lets me assign devices to people in the household so I can just shut my son down and everyone else still has access which is good because my daughter rarely a problem. Teenage boy though, I could move him into a pig pen with a dozen pigs and the pigs would be disgusted by him.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Openminded said:


> Your problem absolutely did begin with your husband — just as mine did. My husband didn’t care about any of that (neither did his mom) and our child, and then our grandchildren, picked up on his attitude that a non-messy house is not important.


Outside of drinking wine and possibly rolling one… How do you manage? I feel like I'm losing my mind


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

They sound like slobs that your husband has created.

Honestly...if I were you I would ask to go to counseling for this (his attitude towards you).


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> There's not a fight. You're all guilty at times so you all suffer when one of you does x which you know the rules on. If you don't like it you're adults and there is plenty of vacant apartments in the area. My Wifi app actually lets me assign devices to people in the household so I can just shut my son down and everyone else still has access which is good because my daughter rarely a problem. Teenage boy though, I could move him into a pig pen with a dozen pigs and the pigs would be disgusted by him.


I homeschooled our kids. And there were times I would see them on myspace (in the day) and


Livvie said:


> They sound like slobs that your husband has created.
> 
> Honestly...if I were you I would ask to go to counseling for this (his attitude towards you).


I have begged for counseling for 10 years!
He says he will go, then never does!!
I have also told him, go ask your male friends if they would let their kids talk/treat their wife like our kids do me! 
I would LOVE to once hear my husband with a firm voice say to any of our kids "You will NOT treat MY wife like this" Its. to going to happen, but a woman can dream!
He also truly believes that he's in the right. He has flat told me that if we saw a counselor I would realize how off I am. 🙄


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mary L said:


> Outside of drinking wine and possibly rolling one… How do you manage? I feel like I'm losing my mind


Not easily, for sure. 

Going through menopause, and dealing with all of that, was a nightmare with zero support from my husband. When I was in my mid-60’s I got a divorce (not because of the messy house — there were much more serious issues to deal with) and that took care of a significant part of the problem.😄


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Openminded said:


> Not easily, for sure.
> 
> Going through menopause, and dealing with all of that, was a nightmare with zero support from my husband. When I was in my mid-60’s I got a divorce (not because of the messy house — there were much more serious issues to deal with) and that took care of a significant part of the problem.😄


The house is just an extension of the real issue. :/


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

You do realize this is about a whole lot more than a messy house, right?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Mary L said:


> I homeschooled our kids. And there were times I would see them on myspace (in the day) and
> 
> I have begged for counseling for 10 years!
> He says he will go, then never does!!
> ...


Grrrr. Kids may be pigs, but they're not stupid. They know they have permission from him to treat you like this. He's undermining your authority when he should have your back OR at least come up with a mutually agreed upon plan. I think you need to tell him you made a marriage counseling appointment because he's undermining you with the kids and it has to stop.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Prodigal said:


> You do realize this is about a whole lot more than a messy house, right?


Absolutely! 
I also think that peoples feeling and being over worked are important. I get tired of things laying all over. Our one daughter will changed her babies diaper and leave it on the floor. 
I am not talking about random wrapper or random towel. 
I don't think its okay to leave your things all over the house. Especially when it's important to someone. 
I don't mind the house being"messy" when people are here. Its never going to be perfect! If the dinner mess sits so we can all go play a board game, great! Or we can all clean it together and enjoy the evening without it hanging over us. My family would chose the 1st, me the 2nd. There isn't a right answer, but it should be a group effort when its dinner for several adult children who are staying here. IMO
I think dishes should not be left in bedrooms, clean or dirty. I don't think they should be there in the first place. We have dealt with an ant infestation that was bad! I have repainted a wall because of water spots from wet towels that was left on top of dirty close, leaned against our wall.
Sorry I feel like I'm kind of defenseless on this. Its not directed towards you. 
I have never chosen a clean home over my family. I also don't think its okay to be slobs. Which is (IMO) what's happening and has happened. 
When the kids were home and being homeschooled, our house was always in some sort of disarray. It was never perfect. I've never expected that. But they're adults now. It was a struggle when they were kids to get them to do chores and clean up after themselves because I didn't have support. And now they're lazy, sloppy adults. And I don't think that's fair to me.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Grrrr. Kids may be pigs, but they're not stupid. They know they have permission from him to treat you like this. He's undermining your authority when he should have your back OR at least come up with a mutually agreed upon plan. I think you need to tell him you made a marriage counseling appointment because he's undermining you with the kids and it has to stop.


Yes they do, and it is because hes allowed it, 100%!!
I should (about the counseling). I wonder if he would go? I have asked over the years, but when it comes to sitting and finding one, he always has a reason why now isn't a good time. I just stopped talking about it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mary L said:


> The house is just an extension of the real issue. :/


Yes. The real issue, in my case, is that we just weren’t compatible no matter how hard I tried to make it work. I held on decades longer than I should have. I don’t recommend it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Wow, your daughter leaves her baby's dirty diapers on your floor?

I'd leave them there to accumulate. And then before she goes, as she is packing up, say, please pick up the dirty diapers before you go, thanks.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Mary L said:


> Yes they do, and it is because hes allowed it, 100%!!
> I should (about the counseling). I wonder if he would go? I have asked over the years, but when it comes to sitting and finding one, he always has a reason why now isn't a good time. I just stopped talking about it.


That's why you just make the appointment. Maybe if he has time to think about it for a minute you'll realize that the next call could be to an attorney and that this is serious. This is something a counselor ought to be able to work through and it doesn't really have to do with or they're either one of you is mentally off. It's just getting you to support each other on parenting.

A friend of mine was having this problem except she was the lenient one and her excuses were how crowded their rooms were and I finally talked to her into convincing them what a sweet thing that would be for them to donate their old Legos and other toys to needy children. She still lets them pretty much hoard but she did get it organized at least with the son after that. The daughter isn't that bad.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

You can go to counseling on your own. It can help you regain the authority you have lost. You can run your house without your husband's support. It might be exhausting but not impossible. This is what single parents do. 

There are laws in my home I think I'm the only one enforcing. Table manners is something I'm the only one bugging my kids about. My husband grew up barely eating meals so for him eating dinner at the table every night was something new. Just today, my son was eating a sandwich at the table, he was relaxed, his foot was on the chair, he was messy. He knows I'm the table manners police. I told him, "son, I know you are eating a sandwich, but please sit down the right way and keep the food on your plate. You have to respect my table and my food. There's a time and place for everything. I need you to remember your table manners at my table because that's something very important to me." Of course he rolled his eyes, but at least he sat down the right way and stopped making a mess. 

Your husband doesn't have to be the only one enforcing or forgiving laws. You are one of the bosses of the house and that gives you the authority to make as many laws as you need. I really don't care if I'm the bad guy. My kids have called me mean, strict, crazy! One time I was tired of them calling me mean, I started singing the song "I'm mean" from the original Popeye's movie, they left the room huffing and puffing! I secretly laughed! They understood they don't stand a chance with their mom. 

Your dynamics are different from a traditional home. My female friends who homeschool don't get a break, their homes are a mess and they have more like a friend-friend relationship with their kids. 

Why don't you look for a counselor for yourself. It might help you navigate perimenopause, and help you with your issues in your home and your marriage. 

You have to start somewhere!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

and the counselor waved it's magic wand and the husband started cleaning house and they all lived happily ever after.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Openminded said:


> Yes. The real issue, in my case, is that we just weren’t compatible no matter how hard I tried to make it work. I held on decades longer than I should have. I don’t recommend it.


I hear you. I honestly do. I’m just not ready for that step. I can’t say that I have not recently entertain the idea.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That's why you just make the appointment. Maybe if he has time to think about it for a minute you'll realize that the next call could be to an attorney and that this is serious. This is something a counselor ought to be able to work through and it doesn't really have to do with or they're either one of you is mentally off. It's just getting you to support each other on parenting.
> 
> A friend of mine was having this problem except she was the lenient one and her excuses were how crowded their rooms were and I finally talked to her into convincing them what a sweet thing that would be for them to donate their old Legos and other toys to needy children. She still lets them pretty much hoard but she did get it organized at least with the son after that. The daughter isn't that bad.


Agreed!


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Wow, your daughter leaves her baby's dirty diapers on your floor?
> 
> I'd leave them there to accumulate. And then before she goes, as she is packing up, say, please pick up the dirty diapers before you go, thanks.


70% of the time she does. 🤬


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Mr. Nail said:


> and the counselor waved it's magic wand and the husband started cleaning house and they all lived happily ever after.


Probably not, and honestly I don’t care about that. Yes if I cook for our family including adult children and their children, I don’t think it’s inappropriate to ask everybody to help clean up from dinner. I don’t think it’s an appropriate to ask adult children to keep their things somewhat together while they’re visiting. I just want him to tell our adult kids to get their wet towels off the floor so it doesn’t ruin my wall, throw their garbage away including dirty diapers.
I really don’t think that’s too much to ask.

PS. Being the over thinker I am… I was thinking about your comment/my statement. You may have been commenting based on my original post. Whereas I’ve been discussing it off and on throughout the day and I’ve arrived at different point in the conversation.
The example that I gave, although is very accurate, was the first thing I thought of to give. Honestly if that’s all I had to worry about, I wouldn’t worry about it at all. I try to clearly explain the depths of what’s going on, in a short paragraph or two, but it’s not my forte.  Either I don’t say it well, or I get too lengthy.


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## So Married (Dec 18, 2020)

Mr. Nail said:


> and the counselor waved it's magic wand and the husband started cleaning house and they all lived happily ever after.


LOL!

Don't you think he could at least clean up after himself though? I think he should back her up when her grown daughter leaves dirty diapers on the floor instead of in the trash too. 

IMO, everyone in this home/family needs to show more respect for each other.... 

Mom, don't be a control freak. I'm sorry, but I had to. The chart on the fridge for adults? Come on. Stop cleaning up after them or they will never change. They know you will do it, so they don't have to try. Tonight, suggest going out to eat or get a pizza and use paper plates.

The family should certainly show more respect for you and for your home, especially knowing how important it is to you. Your husband seems to want to be the cool parent, so he takes their side instead of yours. He should grow up. Your kids too. I'm really not trying to be rude or hurtful, but damn.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

So Married said:


> LOL!
> 
> Don't you think he could at least clean up after himself though? I think he should back her up when her grown daughter leaves dirty diapers on the floor instead of in the trash too.
> 
> ...


She has the chart on the fridge because they are unable to pick up their messes in the most basic of ways.

Dirty diapers left around, pee puddled on the seat and around the toilet, wet towels that have already ruined a wall. How piggish. The chart isn't a commentary on OP but rather these adults.

I agree. Stop with the meals. Get pizza. Use paper plates. Or announce that if you cook, they do the dishes.


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## So Married (Dec 18, 2020)

Livvie said:


> She has the chart on the fridge because they are unable to pick up their messes in the most basic of ways.


I get that, but it doesn't work.

They don't respect her if the way they treat her home is any indication. Still, treating them as if they are in kindergarten is disrespectful too. They all need to knock it off. These are people who are supposed to love each other.



Livvie said:


> Or announce that if you cook, they do the dishes.


Yep.

Better yet, go out to dinner on your own and leave them to fend for themselves.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mary L said:


> It was a struggle when they were kids to get them to do chores and clean up after themselves because I didn't have support.


There's your answer. Your husband never had your back when you were raising the kids. They were slobs then, and rather than backing you up when you put your foot down, he did what he's doing now. Minimized the issue, discounted you, or acted like he was oblivious.

The kids' disrespect for you just rubbed off on them from your husband.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You need to go on strike. Seriously, don't do a thing for anyone including your husband. No grocery shopping, no cooking, no laundry, no cleaning, no babysitting - no nothing for anyone except for yourself. And, those dirty diapers? Put them in a garbage bag and throw them in your daughter's luggage when she's packing to leave. Leaving them laying around is disgusting. You need to fight fire with fire.

It would help you tremendously if you could book a hotel for yourself for a few days and let the pigs fend for themselves.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

So Married said:


> Mom, don't be a control freak. I'm sorry, but I had to. The chart on the fridge for adults?
> 
> _I have not made them a chore chart since they were in middle school. I got this idea from a friend of mine when we found out the two kids were coming in to visit this time. She knows this is an on going problem._
> _She said that when the kids (she has 3, one married) came home for Christmas, they did this and it worked great. It kept her from being over worked and in charge of all areas, everyone pitched in. I figured it couldn't hurt to try it._
> ...


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## 10 minutes (Dec 30, 2020)

Personally I think everyone should hand wash their own plates, cups and cutlery as soon as they’ve finished. This prevents clutter, makes a dishwasher unnecessary, and prevents the dreaded dishwashing chore at the end of the night. Everyone should be able to look after their own crap from a young age. My wife completely disagrees with me though so she does literally everything herself (except the cooking, I love doing it) and always feels tired and stressed out.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

When I hear someone declare "a house should look lived in" my immediate thought is they are too lazy to clean. Personally I like a clean house, not operating room sterile but mostly neat and organized, picked up and not piled up. lol

I am always bothered when people suggest if you can't stand a mess clean it yourself or leave the mess forever for the offending party to deal with. If us clean people could do that we wouldn't be bothered in the first place, trying to ignore it is terrible advise.

Do I have a solution? Yeah, I'm divorced and live by myself. I've told my kids if anything ever happens in their life and they want to move back home it isn't going to happen, I would rather rent them an apartment for a year.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My exH did the same with our child and then our grandchildren. It wasn’t done in an obviously mean way — more along the lines of “joking” — but the message was clear. He never had my back and always dismissed any concerns I might have about anything. That‘s a tough way to live but I didn’t really see just how tough until I was gone. He never changed. Your husband is unlikely to either.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

I love this thread!
I am a minimalist. I hate clutter. I despise anything in my counters, even toasters and food processors etc.
My bedroom looks like a hotel. 😂
My daughter is messy. Not dirty but messy.
She comes over most days and when she leaves it’s always a half an hour of picking up and putting things away.
Im at the stage in my life that arguing over it isn’t worth it. I’m happy to spend time with her and to be honest grateful she likes spending time with me at this stage in her life. 
One day she won’t be here as often and I know I will miss her and her messes. 😂


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Mr. Nail said:


> Thanks for not getting very upset over what came off as a very snarky post. I wrote it too quickly after spending an hour under a sink.
> 
> I was pointing out two things.
> 1 The counselor has no way to make the husband clean.
> ...


I honestly do not care if anyone cleans with me. I gave that up years ago.
If they could pick up after themselves when they are here, if the ones who live here wouldn't leave messes for me, that would be great. And yes, I did ask for help cleaning up with larger meals we do. 
We do need counseling. We needed it years ago. I don't care what page we are on, we need to be on the same page though. We have never had unity! EVER. 
The one down side to getting help and growing is, you begin to see situations differently. I tend to be very co-dependent. Not now, as much. I want to make people happy and I don't push when people start getting upset with me. Now? It pisses me off when he acts like this, not supporting, letting the kids talk badly to me. 
I just need support.
The issue isn't a dirty dish. The issue is the chaos and disrespect from all.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Prodigal said:


> There's your answer. Your husband never had your back when you were raising the kids. They were slobs then, and rather than backing you up when you put your foot down, he did what he's doing now. Minimized the issue, discounted you, or acted like he was oblivious.
> 
> The kids' disrespect for you just rubbed off on them from your husband.


I know. I just don't know ant to do about it. 
Was so frustrated yesterday. I think I was just needing to unload, vent. I shouldn't have.
I know the issues, I just don't know the resolve. :/


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## 10 minutes (Dec 30, 2020)

I’ve only ever been in one home that was so neat and clean that it felt cold, sterile and uncomfortable. It was a millionaire’s house and everyone would privately say the same thing. Even the floor felt unwelcoming, comprising giant white shiny tiles that you might slip on if you feet were wet.
But kids will be as lazy or as tidy as they’re raised. My wife dotes on our children so they expect everything to be done for them. The only chore they get is to take in the rubbish bins because I told them to do it (my wife objected of course) but the kids love the responsibility even though the oldest is only 6 years old.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> You can go to counseling on your own. It can help you regain the authority you have lost. You can run your house without your husband's support. It might be exhausting but not impossible. This is what single parents do.
> 
> _As an adult, I have twice went to counselors only own. How do you think I am as together as I am! 🤪
> haha, but seriously. I have.
> ...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Mary L said:


> I love hearing other peoples opinions. My family thinks I'm way too needy, to clean. A neat freak is what they call me. I obviously feel like I balance it well.
> When they were kids I would encourage them to pick up their toys with me. Now that they are all adults, I just don't see why that stuff should be left for me or to be left to be stared at until it piles up enough that it's acceptable for me to clean it.
> I don't know, I'm probably more in a mood today to *** and gripe then to fix anything to be honest. I don't think it's unreasonable to bring in your jacket and either go hang it up, or if you do toss it on a chair don't get upset if somebody asks you to hang it up. I don't think it's OK for adult children to tell me that I'm too neat or to go off on me verbally when I ask them to throw their empty wrappers away.
> If I hear one more time in the next 24 hrs that I am too neat, too emotional or overthink things I may just explode LOL
> ...


If she is just visiting I would invest in patience.

When her visit is up, you are down to having the clean house, yet again.

When you truly love someone, the small warts need be accepted.

Pick wisely your battles.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mary L said:


> I know. I just don't know ant to do about it.
> Was so frustrated yesterday. I think I was just needing to unload, vent. I shouldn't have.
> I know the issues, *I just don't know the resolve*. :/


Yes, you do. You just don't want to do anything about it. It's probably too late anyway.


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## So Married (Dec 18, 2020)

Mary L said:


> _They have been taught that I’m over the top and all these things don’t need to be done. _


They have been taught. They've been taught by your husband that what you want/need is no big deal and that it's okay to disrespect you. His lack of respect may be part of your other issues.

They've also been taught by you that you will do it if they don't, and that they can get away with disrespecting you. We teach people how to treat us (I'm saying this to myself as much as I am to you). 

I'm not trying to be hurtful. I'm giving you my honest response. I've never had it as bad as you do, but my kids did get to a point where they seemed to think that my only purpose on Earth was to do for them. Only you can change that, and you clearly won't get any help from your husband (at least not as things currently stand).


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Dog hair is a must !!!!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your husband doesn’t respect you. Neither do your children. And there’s no reason to think that your grandchildren will either. I know that life.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> If she is just visiting I would invest in patience.
> 
> When her visit is up, you are down to having the clean house, yet again.
> 
> ...


Yeah but this is blatant disrespect and grossness. Why should that have to be accepted by OP? Why should she have to _accept_ blatant disrespect? She doesn't. It feels bad and she does not need to just suck it up.

Would these adults leave dirty diapers on the floor of someone else's house? Wet towels to the point they damage a wall? Pee on the toilet seat and floor? These aren't just "warts and all".


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Livvie said:


> She has the chart on the fridge because they are unable to pick up their messes in the most basic of ways.
> 
> Dirty diapers left around, pee puddled on the seat and around the toilet, wet towels that have already ruined a wall. How piggish. The chart isn't a commentary on OP but rather these adults.
> 
> I agree. Stop with the meals. Get pizza. Use paper plates. Or announce that if you cook, they do the dishes.


Stop with everything.


Blondilocks said:


> Yes, you do. You just don't want to do anything about it. It's probably too late anyway.


Well that brings comfort LOL just kidding.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

SunCMars said:


> If she is just visiting I would invest in patience.
> 
> When her visit is up, you are down to having the clean house, yet again.
> 
> ...


I really wish it was that simple. If it was just a matter of cleaning my house up after everybody leaves, that wouldn’t be an issue. Because that’s exactly what happens. The issue is the actual filth. And that’s not even the issue. The issue is the lack of unity and respect. The issue is the fact that I need a partner that backs me, I needed help when they were kids. I was no better because I didn’t realize how deep the issue was and I had no idea how to implement things, alone. 
so the issues grew and now they’re adults.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You obviously can’t make them do anything they don’t want to do. 

That leaves you with a choice.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The military cleaned up my act!

I was the worst of the best at organizing my stuff!

Later in life, we all seem to have more stuff than space to store 'it'.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Mary L said:


> I really wish it was that simple. If it was just a matter of cleaning my house up after everybody leaves, that wouldn’t be an issue. Because that’s exactly what happens. The issue is the actual filth. And that’s not even the issue. The issue is the lack of unity and respect. The issue is the fact that I need a partner that backs me, I needed help when they were kids. I was no better because I didn’t realize how deep the issue was and I had no idea how to implement things, alone.
> so the issues grew and now they’re adults.


I capitulate. 

These are impolite guests.

They remind of that 'Pig Pen' character in the Charlie Brown cartoons.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I am pretty relaxed about things like this as is my husband. His former wife was almost OCD about housework and tidiness so it's good to see him more relaxed now.
A few crumbs and a plate not immediately put away is nothing, the world will not stop, there are far more important things to worry about, and when my children/grandchildren visit I am far more concerned about being with them than a few extra things that I may need to sort out and do. Especially with covid we have had very limited times with family for a year in the UK, and it makes us appreciate each other more.
Please don't end up driving those close to you away over little things that ultimately don't really matter one iota.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I am pretty relaxed about things like this as is my husband. His former wife was almost OCD about housework and tidiness so it's good to see him more relaxed now.
> A few crumbs and a plate not immediately put away is nothing, the world will not stop, there are far more important things to worry about, and when my children/grandchildren visit I am far more concerned about being with them than a few extra things that I may need to sort out and do. Especially with covid we have had very limited times with family for a year in the UK, and it makes us appreciate each other more.
> Please don't end up driving those close to you away over little things that ultimately don't really matter one iota.


Wtf. Why don't you read the whole thread before replying?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Wtf. Why don't you read the whole thread before replying?


I read the first couple of pages where the op told of the issues. .


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mary L said:


> The issue is the lack of unity and respect. The issue is the fact that I need a partner that backs me,


Granted, those are their issues to own. But you? Nope. You should have enforced boundaries with consequences; that's what YOU own. You should have been doing this when they were kids. But since the damage is done, I'd suggest the next time these slobs descend on your home you get paper plates and cups. Don't let them eat off anything else. Have a sparsely-stocked fridge. Less food = less mess. 

Frankly, if I was in your place, I'd have nothing available for any of them other than bottled water. Let them go out to eat.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Prodigal said:


> Granted, those are their issues to own. But you? Nope. You should have enforced boundaries with consequences; that's what YOU own. You should have been doing this when they were kids. But since the damage is done, I'd suggest the next time these slobs descend on your home you get paper plates and cups. Don't let them eat off anything else. Have a sparsely-stocked fridge. Less food = less mess.
> 
> Frankly, if I was in your place, I'd have nothing available for any of them other than bottled water. Let them go out to eat.


Do you think that part of the issue here is that the OP has very different standards than they do? I mentioned before my husband's former wife who was almost OCD about keeping the house ultra tidy and clean, so much so that the children when small could hardly get toys out. A mutual friend once mentioned that when he was round there she was hoovering round him and it made him feel very uncomfortable. 
Some are far more relaxed how in they want things to be at home and some are much stricter and get stressed when things arent as they want them. Maybe there is a compromise here.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Do you think that part of the issue here is that the OP has very different standards than they do?


Yes, you are quite right. The thing is, one of her kids tossed a dirty baby diaper on the floor. They spill stuff and don't clean it up. While the OP sounds like a bit of a neat freak (and I am quite guilty of that myself), the sloppiness of her offspring and husband appear to be something even more relaxed people would find disconcerting.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Prodigal said:


> Yes, you are quite right. The thing is, one of her kids tossed a dirty baby diaper on the floor. They spill stuff and don't clean it up. While the OP sounds like a bit of a neat freak (and I am quite guilty of that myself), the sloppiness of her offspring and husband appear to be something even more relaxed people would find disconcerting.


When my children come I often help change nappies etc and the nappies just go in a nappy bag bag by the back door till someone is going out to the bins. I suppose I am just involved and mucking in, I dont worry about things being a little messier than normal, thats what comes with having children and grandchilren to stay or visit. You cant expect things to be as pristine as they would be with just a couple there. Once they have gone then calm reigns again and things can be as we want them again.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> When my children come I often help change nappies etc and the nappies just go in a nappy bag bag by the back door till someone is going out to the bins. I suppose I am just involved and mucking in, I dont worry about things being a little messier than normal, thats what comes with having children and grandchilren to stay or visit. You cant expect things to be as pristine as they would be with just a couple there. Once they have gone then calm reigns again and things can be as we want them again.


Daughter leaves dirty diapers laying around on the floor... time after time. For her mother to pick up!!! That is so disrespectful. Don't you see how that's different than placing them "in a nappy bag by the back door"? I'm sure OP would be delighted for her daughter to put them in a bag by the door. 

Pee on the toilet seat and on the floor? Dripping wet towels in a heap that previously ruined a wall?

This isn't just the chaos and mess that comes with having guests. This is gross disrespect. That stuff would be gross if done in a hotel room, too. ****ing dirty diapers left scattered about the floor, pee on the toilet seat and floor, wet towels left to ruin a wall. I know I have more respect in a hotel room and would never do that: pick up a dirty diaper from the floor, wipe off the seat if you pee on it, and put your sopping towels somewhere they aren't going to ruin something.

Elementary school aged children have more life manners than that.

That's why I asked if you read the thread.

It's like you are deliberately are trying not to grasp the situation.

But then that's par for the course.


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## 10 minutes (Dec 30, 2020)

The thread started off about whether crumbs on a plate is unacceptable, then descended to soiled diapers on the floor. There’s a significant difference between the two.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

SunCMars said:


> If she is just visiting I would invest in patience.
> 
> When her visit is up, you are down to having the clean house, yet again.
> 
> ...


I guess I don't understand this comment. I'm not trying to be rude, I really just don't understand the comment. You're writing the comment as if I have come across like that I am not choosing battles or I'm being picky. 
When you love somebody with that comes the good and the bad. I don't expect my family to be perfect. 
I've tried to give examples hoping people will see the extent of this, but even giving those examples I must just becoming a crossed in a different way than I mean.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

10 minutes said:


> The thread started off about whether crumbs on a plate is unacceptable, then descended to soiled diapers on the floor. There’s a significant difference between the two.


When I gave the example of leaving crumbs on the counter and a plate laying wherever, I wanted to give an example that wasn't too attacking. Then I felt some weren't understanding my intent, so I gave some deeper issue examples.
There are times that I question my own sanity. It's discussions like this that help pull me back into reality. Because when everybody around me is telling me that I'm crazy because I'm seeing things in our home that I believe are disgusting, lazy or flat out uncaring to me, I need to know that I'm not crazy. It's been years of this.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Mary L said:


> I guess I don't understand this comment. I'm not trying to be rude, I really just don't understand the comment. You're writing the comment as if I have come across like that I am not choosing battles or I'm being picky.
> When you love somebody with that comes the good and the bad. I don't expect my family to be perfect.
> I've tried to give examples hoping people will see the extent of this, but even giving those examples I must just becoming a crossed in a different way than I mean.


After reading more of your thread I realize that you are more than reasonable in your demands.

Carry on!


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> When my children come I often help change nappies etc and the nappies just go in a nappy bag bag by the back door till someone is going out to the bins. I suppose I am just involved and mucking in, I dont worry about things being a little messier than normal, thats what comes with having children and grandchilren to stay or visit. You cant expect things to be as pristine as they would be with just a couple there. Once they have gone then calm reigns again and things can be as we want them again.


"till someone is going out to the bins"
You are saying someone would take the nappie to the bin on their own? Without being asked, then it turning into a 20 minute argument as to how you are expecting too much from people, or you being told how you are just neat freak ruining peoples visiting time?

"You cant expect things to be as pristine as they would be with just a couple there."
I feel that I have stated and made it very clear that I don't expect things to be as pristine as when people are not here. First off my house is not seeing pristine, ever. I'm not allowed to have my house to neat.

One huge problem about forums and anything else online or that you're typing/texting is, people see things through their own perception. So when I say my house is never been pristine I know what vision that creates in my head. Your definition of me saying "pristine and neat" will obviously create a completely different scenario in your head.

I do pick and choose my battles. However I do not expect adult children or my husband to be slobs or to just leave messes for me on a daily basis. I don't expect our adult children to come in with their children and leave messages all throughout my house for me to pick up and when I ask about it nobody seems to know what the heck I'm talking about. 

Maybe they are the ones that need to just jump in and muck in and help me?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The thing is, Mary, you created these monsters. You home-schooled them so you had way more influence over them than your husband. You want your husband to back you up and he's wondering why you drag him into these incidents. At the same time, you want to be the good mom who loves her kids so you back down when they give you lip.

Ask you daughter if she would leave a dirty diaper on the floor of a stranger's home. Chances are she'll say no - that's when you say "Then why are you treating me worse than you would treat a total stranger?". Your son telling you that you interrupted the game to complain about the watermelon dripping in the refrigerator which you'll have to clean up was simply backtalk that you didn't have to tolerate.

Stop taking crap from these kids and your husband. Just because all 5 of them gang up on you doesn't mean you have to stand there and take it. Tell them to take that maid job and shove it and you don't give a rat's ass if they think you're being picky, unreasonable or hard to get along with. You're done being walked on.


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## TomNebraska (Jun 14, 2016)

Mary L said:


> How clean is too clean for a home?
> How dirty is too dirty for a home??
> 
> This has been a huge and consistent issue in our home for 30 years.
> ...


I'm a little late to the thread, but if you make yourself a sandwich:

1) sandwich ingredients must be put away. plate should be cleared of any detritus that could attract bugs, and ideally put in the dishwasher, but left aside the sink is okay

2) crumbs should be swept up and dumped in the garbage or sink, but that can slide. sometimes people are in a hurry or don't notice and it's not worth the headache of fighting that battle.

have them clean the kitchen once and a while, and hopefully they'll learn


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## So Married (Dec 18, 2020)

Mary L said:


> There are times that I question my own sanity. It's discussions like this that help pull me back into reality. Because when everybody around me is telling me that I'm crazy because I'm seeing things in our home that I believe are disgusting, lazy or flat out uncaring to me, I need to know that I'm not crazy. It's been years of this.


Yeah, you don't have to tolerate this. You aren't crazy for thinking that people should treat you with respect.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

One comment that caught my attention was you saying "you question your own sanity". What happens when you lose control of your environment is you become hyper vigilant, I speak from personal experience. So while at one point in your life a plate left on the counter was no big deal, but now it becomes an issue because in your view it's another piece of a mountain you are trying to climb.

One thing I did with my kids was offer a pay/reward system, age appropriate of coarse. Example...I'll pay $5.00 a week for sweeping the kitchen floor every evening, you skip a day you earn less, that's on you. Put your dishes in the dishwasher ever time, great, $2.00 bonus! That program didn't always run smoothly but it did help keep the kids incentified. No luck with the wife though (sigh). Another reward of that is now my kids are adults living on there own and both keep clean and orderly living spaces. 

I understand your frustration, you're not insane, just pushed to the limit. And when your spouse doesn't support you are alone in your struggles. Again I have no fix it solution, sorry, but I do understand what you are dealing with.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mary, print this thread out and hand a copy to every single member of your family. If your husband still thinks you're being too picky, file for divorce.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

Cooper said:


> One comment that caught my attention was you saying "you question your own sanity". What happens when you lose control of your environment is you become hyper vigilant, I speak from personal experience. So while at one point in your life a plate left on the counter was no big deal, but now it becomes an issue because in your view it's another piece of a mountain you are trying to climb.
> 
> I understand your frustration, you're not insane, just pushed to the limit. And when your spouse doesn't support you are alone in your struggles. Again I have no fix it solution, sorry, but I do understand what you are dealing with.


 Oh my gosh you just hit the nail on the head!


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Nothing is going to change unless you implement a drastic change. So, what are you going to do? 

I can't live with someone who doesn't respect me. I can't live with someone who disregards my needs. I can't live with someone who doesn't share most of my points of view. 

My mother has been in your shoes forever. I don't know why she's still married to my dad but routine and security are the biggest reasons why. She hasn't stopped complaining about it. She hasn't done anything to change the dynamics in her marriage either. I really don't know what she realistically wants.


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## Mary L (Jun 26, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> Nothing is going to change unless you implement a drastic change. So, what are you going to do?
> 
> I can't live with someone who doesn't respect me. I can't live with someone who disregards my needs. I can't live with someone who doesn't share most of my points of view.
> 
> My mother has been in your shoes forever. I don't know why she's still married to my dad but routine and security are the biggest reasons why. She hasn't stopped complaining about it. She hasn't done anything to change the dynamics in her marriage either. I really don't know what she realistically wants.



I have no doubt that some of me staying is security and what's familiar.
We get one life and this has been my life. Even as bad as it's been sometimes. But it's not all bad. We have also had amazing times. There have been two or three consistent problems, and they have a big problems. I can't argue that. I won't argue that. But this is my family. Even though they disrespect me, and even though we have some big issues, I don't want to just toss them away. I want to try to fix the broken. Even if that sounds naïve to most people. 
Maybe I am naïve for still hoping for better. I guess that's why I keep looking for answers. But I love my family. I believe they are a dysfunctional trip, but they are my dysfunctional trip.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your family — especially your husband — would have to want to fix this but they don’t. That leaves you continuing to rely on hopium. It keeps many in dysfunctional relationships but at the end of the day, nothing ever really changes — until you decide to change. That’s the key.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Mary L said:


> Even though they disrespect me, and even though we have some big issues, I don't want to just toss them away. I want to try to fix the broken. Even if that sounds naïve to most people. ... Maybe I am naïve for still hoping for better. I guess that's why I keep looking for answers.


Sometimes the correct answers hurt. No, I don't advocate tossing away your family. But this hot mess is the result of you never having or enforcing boundaries. And you can't fix what is broken here. That would require a team effort, and the way it stands right now it's them versus you. 

If you want the dynamic to change, you need to enforce boundaries that come with consequences. Yelling and carrying on and having meltdowns when this bunch trashes the house isn't taken seriously. And why should it be? They all know you'll eventually clean up their messes.

Like I said, bottled water ONLY in the fridge, paper plates and cups with plastic utensils, and leave them to forage for themselves. If you can set boundaries without folding when the onslaught begins, you have a chance. Until then, learn to live with it. Sorry.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Sorry, I did skim-read.

I understand the crux of the issue is lack of support. Could you call a family meeting. Make dinner, have everyone sit down. Tell them you love them. Then tell them you are no longer willing to put up with the ****. Tell them straight what you expect. And ask them how they will support those expectations. It’s not a debate about whether your expectations are valid. It’s about what they are collectively going to do from here. Get them to formulate some solutions as a means to drive their commitment. Minimal wording for a succinct message. If they indicate they’re not going to step up, know what the consequences will be - and act on it.

If you don’t normally curse, I suggest doing so in that conversation. Others might disagree with this - I feel it can communicate swiftly that enough is enough.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

The diaper on the floor is disgusting.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Also, we have been guests in a family member’s home who was (from my view) OCD with cleaning. We’re more relaxed than that and I do love minimalism - I loved staying at a place in Japan whereby there was pretty much nothing in the room lol - still, back to cleanliness... So it was quickly apparent this family member had a certain routine and way of keeping her home spotless. Recognising we were guests in their home, we were quick-smart to ensure we followed suit. Yet, I’d also be the same way if staying at one of our parent’s homes. Quick to clean up / and certainly offering to help with anything. It is a respect thing. I vote telling them straight as adults. They’re grown enough to handle it. And grown enough to disappoint you... or surprise you. You need to be firm and enact consequences regardless of their reaction.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Sorry one more comment, or question really - while I recognise your husband doesn’t back you - I’m curious that your daughter is 27 but what age did she move out? The dynamic is still that of parent/child rather than an adult coming to stay who respects this is your home. Yes, I know she is still your child but at some point a shift needs to happen. If she were to stay with someone else it’s unlikely they’d put up with it.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I probably am not compatible either with a neat freak or a complete slob. I'm somewhere in the middle. I wait til the dishwasher has finished its cycle before loading dirty dishes BUT I wouldn't leave them in the sink overnight. My room is sometimes messy never dirty. And laundry has to be done pretty soon in our house otherwise it piles up. Everyone has pet peeves. Mine are dirty clothes or sheets. Just ew.


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## So Married (Dec 18, 2020)

Next time they are coming to stay, don't say a word. Just book yourself a hotel room. Don't come back until they've gone home. Book a cleaning crew to come in the day they leave. Put your feet up while your house is professionally cleaned.


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