# It is your duty to sacrifice for the kids



## carolinahunt (Mar 31, 2013)

I recently confided in some friends about my husband and our unhappiness is the marriage, which has been ongoing for over 4 years and I am considering separation and she said...

'YOu have kids and it is your duty to sacrifice all your happiness for their well being".

This struck me hard. What do you all think about this? Is divorce so terrible for kids that its better to stay together miserable "for their sake?"

-UNHAPPY MOMMA


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

IMO, it's better for children to grow up with 2 happy parents who live separately, rather than live under the same roof as 2 unhappy parents. Parents rarely manage to hide their differences from their children, and children know a lot more than what their parents think they know.

Providing parents behave in a mature, loving and fair manner regarding custody/visitation etc, IMO, children can be far better off if their unhappy parents divorce.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Nope. Some people only see/think in black and white. 

Of course, when there are kids involved you have to consider the well being of the kids...mentally, physically, emotionally, financially..... and there is some sacrifice in that anyway. 

I divorced....with 5 kids. But I did try everything I could think of to make it work out. I did not leave many times....because of the kids. 

Do your homework. Make sure you've tried everything to keep the family together. Make sure you are doing "the right thing" and that you can somehow make it work .... for the kids. Being a single parent comes with ALOT of sacrifice. 

Good Luck


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## carolinahunt (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks is this just your opinion or are there statistics? I'm so afraid of ruining them. My dad once said divorce creates drug addicts and behavioral issues in school
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

carolinahunt said:


> Thanks is this just your opinion or are there statistics? I'm so afraid of ruining them. My dad once said divorce creates drug addicts and behavioral issues in school
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure there's stats for that pov too. I'm thinking miserable home lives do the same (regarding kids).... and I'm a teacher.

*But that IS why I said do your homework. Read up on kids and divorce....the effects of divorce on kids. Figure out what sources you would believe...because every source has an agenda so you have to figure out which source lines up with your values. Once you do some of the homework, then you'd be making a more informed decision rather than and emotional one. JMO


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

carolinahunt said:


> Thanks is this just your opinion or are there statistics? I'm so afraid of ruining them. My dad once said divorce creates drug addicts and behavioral issues in school
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, drug addicts and behavioral issues can also be found in children where the parents stayed together. 

Children know how happy their parents are. If you are unhappy, you aren't going to be fooling them.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

carolinahunt said:


> I recently confided in some friends about my husband and our unhappiness is the marriage, which has been ongoing for over 4 years and I am considering separation and she said...
> 
> 'YOu have kids and it is your duty to sacrifice all your happiness for their well being".
> 
> ...


I would be willing to bet that the person who said this to you, is actually in a miserable marriage herself, and this is HER excuse to herself as to why she stays. I can tell you as someone who lived it, being in a home with unhappy parents is MISERY. My dad treated my mom like absolute sh!t, and I cannot TELL you how many times I wished she would just divorce him!! She finally did, I was 15. The dark clouds over our house lifted, that divorce made both me and my sister very happy. I guarantee that your children want you happy. 

Your kids can come out of divorce as happy, normal, well adjusted individuals. It is up to the parents to make it happen. You have to be honest, supportive and flexible with your kids.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

carolinahunt said:


> I recently confided in some friends about my husband and our unhappiness is the marriage, which has been ongoing for over 4 years and I am considering separation and she said...
> 
> 'YOu have kids and it is your duty to sacrifice all your happiness for their well being".
> 
> ...


Nope. Your friend is under a mistaken assumption that it's always better to have both parents. I think what's best for children is to see two adults who work well together. If that can't be the model you and their dad set for them, then moving on may be necessary. However, you *do* have a duty to teach them to be happy, productive adults. If you leave and they are exposed to a lot of differences in the way you do things and the way he does, it can interfere with them developing the strengths they need to be productive and happy.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

You and your husband are a known quantity. If you split up, you don't know what kind of woman will be "helping" to raise YOUR children when they are with their father.

Just something to think about.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Re: It is your duty to sacrifice for the kids*



Yes it is!
Also, it is also your duty to do everything that you can to make the marriage work.
*Have you tried everything?
What have you tried?*
You are going to sacrifice in your life with or without your husband.


Almost all children will have an attachment to their father unless he is a total waste and even then they may have some attachment.

There are some things that you can tolerate for years and years without you having to divorce and others that leave you no choice. I do not know what your issues in your marriage are.

I agree that there are situations where it is the best option to divorce. Make sure that you understand all the ramifications of divorce and the affect on your children.

*After you get all the information then I suggest that you ask yourself the question of; will you and your children be better off with a father or without a father?*

Also remember that you can always leave your husband when the children are grown and better able to handle the crises.

If your life with your husband is a living hell and there is no chance of change then that is a no-brainer; you leave!

If there is anyway possible for you and him to make the marriage work then it is a no-brainer that your children will have a better chance at life.


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## empty3 (Mar 12, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> Yes it is!
> Also, it is also your duty to do everything that you can to make the marriage work.
> *Have you tried everything?
> What have you tried?*
> ...


Abolutely spot on.

It's a question I personally grapple with. 

I do believe though, that if the mother is unhappy, this generally is absorbed by the kids. They are able to "feel" it no matter how great you are at putting on an act. That said, I do believe I've made a commitment to my kids and perhaps I should change my tolerance levels (towards my H) before I change my kids' world forever.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

carolinahunt said:


> Thanks is this just your opinion or are there statistics? I'm so afraid of ruining them. My dad once said divorce creates drug addicts and behavioral issues in school


So do parents who are unhappy and stuck in a marriage that they no longer want to be in.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What have you done so far to try to improve your marriage? I would not suggest divorce until some very heavy lifting has been done to save the marriage.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

sandc said:


> You and your husband are a known quantity. If you split up, you don't know what kind of woman will be "helping" to raise YOUR children when they are with their father.
> 
> Just something to think about.


SandC ,
I am tending to agree with your POV this morning.
Sometimes ,
Half a loaf is better than none.
Splitting up ALWAYS affect children the most. 
The parents happiness is important for healthy kids, no doubt.
But splitting up does not guarantee that either parent would be happier .
What then?
My mom and dad divorced when I was very young. For YEARS she remained single and unhappy. I suffered the wrath of her frustrations because I grew into a striking resemblance of my dad.

These issues are NEVER that simple,and should be weighed carefully.
Staying for the kids is neither right or wrong ,it depends on the environment in the home and the options available.
I believe that children never asked to come into the world ,and cannot take care of themselves.
So they are entitled to the best care responsible adults can give.

I'm not saying that in any and every situation one should always stay for the sake of the kids .
I am saying that yes, sometimes we as adults may have to sacrifice our personal happiness for the kids.
The key is knowing when.


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## Leasel (Mar 30, 2013)

First off let me say that I speak from personal experience as the child of divorced parents.

Try everything you can to stay together, even if it still doesn't work out, when your kids ask you what happened (I don't know how old they are, but that day will always come sooner or later), they will want to know that you both made an effort to stay together.

If absolutely nothing can save your marriage, ultimately you need to do what will make you happy. In the end, seeing you happy should make your kids happy. Just remember that you WILL have to explain it to your kids sooner or later, rather than trying to hide what happened. Also, it is likely that your kids won't have any problems, if you and your spouse can be CIVIL to each other about everything. Fighting or using the children for your own gain is what causes problems in children with divorced parents, not the divorce itself.

In the end, do what you need to do, but DO consider the impact of each action on your children, and make sure you are being fair to them as well as to yourself.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I cannot fathom WHY on earth someone would suggest exposing children to an unhappy environment for years on end, knowing the potential damage it could do emotionally and the repercussions later on for those children.

I left my ex when my oldest were aged 3 and 8 months. I have posted about this before, but the catalyst for me ending it were a couple of situations. One being when my eldest witnessed a phone call from me to her dad, when I was trying to get hold of him as he hadn't come home AGAIN. Her comment about was I crying because daddy isn't coming home again was like a 2x4 to the face. That was closely followed by his next drinking binge when he was paralytic in town and had been left by his "friend" alone and I was petrified he was going to get mugged or alcohol poisoning. So I had to phone his mum and stepdad to look after the children and drive around trying to find him. I was mortified, then realised why? Why was I embarrassed? It was pure luck that time he'd done it in the evening and not in the day when I'd have had to take the kids with me to find him.

He was not changing. And there was no way I was having that as a lifestyle for my children. So I told him to leave. He did.

I made sure never to badmouth him to them, and promoted a positive relationship where he was welcome to spend time with them in the right conditions, ie not hungover.

His fathering skills then were at best questionable. There is no way I could have justified staying in the interest of their happiness and wellbeing because in that environment the happiness was severely lacking. He didn't contribute anything enough that made it beneficial in ANY WAY for any of us to be there with him.

So staying wouldn't have meant I was sacrificing for the kids, because they would not have GAINED anything by us staying.

FTR my eldest is at the top of her year group in everything, is a friendly, likeable child who is thoughtful and well-behaved. My second is the same. So no doubts I did the right thing.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

So long as there is no infidelity, physical, emotional or mental abuse, I am a strong believer in sticking to the marriage and making it work. You two married for a reason, and if you both commit to communicating effectively, both of you should be able to work through your issues.

I think when most people think about the ideas that "soulmates", "one true love" and "the one" does not exist - people assume that it's OK to divorce and look for someone else because there are plenty of other people who may be easier to get along with. But what about the flip side of that? If there truly aren't "soulmates", then in reality true love is about building something together and tending it to ensure that it stays strong. That - to me - is the flip side of the idea that there are no soulmates. But most people don't want to think that way because I believe a lot of people don't want to admit that marriage can be hard work.


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## yellowledbet (Sep 5, 2012)

Here are some statistics I found online that are rather sobering. The article seems well cited. The take away is, yes, children suffer from divorce. Obviously, these are just statistics and there are individual cases where kids can thrive after their parents divorce. 

How Could Divorce Affect My Kids? - Focus on the Family


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> SandC ,
> I am tending to agree with your POV this morning.
> Sometimes ,
> Half a loaf is better than none.
> ...


Spot on my man. I was going to add to what I wrote above but you just saved me the trouble.


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## bourning (Apr 1, 2013)

This is quite hard to be answered


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

tobio said:


> I cannot fathom WHY on earth someone would suggest exposing children to an unhappy environment for years on end, knowing the potential damage it could do emotionally and the repercussions later on for those children.



That's because every situation is case specific.
My good female friend got married the same time as me to a guy i set her up with. 
They had a daughter during the second year,she wanted a kid badly.
Their marriage went downhill after.
They both went back to university, had demanding careers , and many times she cried and complained to my wife.
At one time they even talked divorce, but they stayed for the daughter. The daughter was very close to her dad.
Picture a 14 yr old daughter staying up with her dad for the entire night, gaming on the computer.
Her dad was like her " boyfriend ", they always did things together,they had fun all the time. She was never close to her mom.

Fast forward, that daughter graduated from high school with flying colours. She's now studying medicine,first year, she wants of be a doctor.

Ironically, the parents are now back in love even more than before. They too got their degrees and are now in a good place career wise. They're on their " second honeymoon" spending weekends away in hotels etc.
Everybody won,_ because they stayed for the child_.

It is never a simple matter.
The problem was never the daughter.
The problems was their career and educational pursuits caused them to grow apart.
Divorcing would have affected that kid's life negatively.


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## LouAnn Poovy (Mar 21, 2013)

carolinahunt said:


> I recently confided in some friends about my husband and our unhappiness is the marriage, which has been ongoing for over 4 years and I am considering separation and she said...
> 
> 'YOu have kids and it is your duty to sacrifice all your happiness for their well being".
> 
> ...


She is no friend of yours.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I agree with you CM, every situation is case specific, and also depends on the level of emotional maturity of the people involved. But unless both parents are very adept at, and focused on, protecting their children from their marital issues, they can cause them immeasurable harm...


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

carolinahunt said:


> I recently confided in some friends about my husband and our unhappiness is the marriage, which has been ongoing for over 4 years and I am considering separation and she said...
> 
> 'YOu have kids and it is your duty to sacrifice all your happiness for their well being".
> 
> ...


I believe you have a duty to try everything at your disposal to keep the family together but sometimes we pick the wrong person to spend the rest of life with and have babies. Having said this I recommend you set an internal date and discuss this with your possible STBX. Demand to go to MC and set a date of separation/divorce. It doesn't matter if they want the divorce or not SOMETHING needs to be done otherwise you will end up destroyed emotionally and physically after years of unhappiness. Your kids will see this and guess what? They will move out one day and have their own families while you regret wasting precious years of your life.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> I've read this sentence about 5 times and I cannot help but turn it around.
> 
> "You have kids and it is their duty to sacrifice all of their happiness for your well being."
> 
> ...


I left because I had no intention of subjecting my son to a miserable childhood. I knew my limits, and I knew I was incapable of being a good parent within the confines of the sort of marriage I had. It wasn't an easy decision, but the pros and cons made it the only decision at the time.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> I've read this sentence about 5 times and I cannot help but turn it around.
> 
> "You have kids and it is their duty to sacrifice all of their happiness for your well being."
> 
> ...



This sounds like Dr. Laura's thinking. She promotes not brining another person into the house or even marrying until the kids are adults. 

A good buddy of mine divorced years ago because his EX cheated on him with multiple men. He got 50/50 custody and told me he would never marry. He went on dates and had more sex in 6 months that he had with his frigid cheating wife in 13 years of marriage. He told me he was lonely and he met this girl who he ended up marrying. She's a great woman and loves his three kids like her own. I'm a little torn on Dr. Laura's advice because waiting 18 years or more to find love again is a lifetime and just too long.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> Sanity, I did say timing plays a factor. My children are teenagers, my son more man than boy. It would be completely unfair to him to make him live with another man. 5 years for me is a drop in the bucket. Plus I'm so enjoying the feeling of not being attached to someone for the first time in my adult life.
> 
> If I were younger and had a decade or more to wait perhaps, I would have a different plan. This works for me and I think everyone needs to find what works for them AND their kids. Like your friend.


I agree. I think the time can actually help heal and really teach us what we want from a future spouse and not settle for crap. Having said this don't give up on love! :smthumbup:


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

yellowledbet said:


> Here are some statistics I found online that are rather sobering. The article seems well cited. The take away is, yes, children suffer from divorce. Obviously, these are just statistics and there are individual cases where kids can thrive after their parents divorce.
> 
> How Could Divorce Affect My Kids? - Focus on the Family


It is a religious based website and I would not take it too seriously OP.

Children can and do thrive after divorce but like many of the pp's have said it depends on the adults involved. And NO divorce does not make drug addicts out of children. 
My parents divorced when I was a child, all my siblings and I went on to have great careers including a Lawyer, medical professional and 2 business professionals.
No drug addicts or drop outs.

My kids are doing very well after their dad and I divorced 3 years ago. My son always was and continues to be an A+ student, both kids are intelligent, articulate, happy, social, well adjusted kids.

They have both their parents equally in their lives and get more quality time with each parent than many kids with parents still together.

There are many on this site and IRL that will tell you that you must sacrifice your life and that you are not entitled to happiness because you are a parent and you are married. Be very wary of the scare mongers, look at your own personal situation and move forward from there.
I wish you well.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> .........
> 
> I agree that there are situations where it is the best option to divorce. Make sure that you understand all the ramifications of divorce and the affect on your children.
> 
> ...


Why do you assume the father will no longer be there, we are talking about divorce, not death? A child still has 2 parents after divorce.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I agree with you CM, every situation is case specific, and also depends on the level of emotional maturity of the people involved. But unless both parents are very adept at, and focused on, protecting their children from their marital issues, they can cause them immeasurable harm...



Yup ,
That's what I'm trying to say.
Just my childhood experience and what I've noticed.
If there is physical / verbal / sexual or any type of abuse, then the woman should definitely run.
No compromise there.
All about protecting the kids and weighing everything.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Yes, but it depends. You choose to have them and owe them a stable home where they can thrive. That's where the rub comes it. Can they thrive in your home? It's a tough question, but if your having aggressive fights, there's blatant disrespect or cheating then no. I do think it's a parents responsibility to suffer in silence for the benefit of the child. After your children are adults then the rules change IMO. In other words, romantic happiness is second to child development.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

I think it is your duty as a parent to do whatever you think is best/healthiest overall for your children. Sometimes that means staying together, sometimes that means getting a divorce.

Marriage does not always equal happiness for kids. Divorce does not equal unhappiness. It's not that black and white.

In my situation, my ex (and I) came to terms with his homosexuality around age 30. It was unfortunate for our kids that we both realized this too late but we were very good friends and had a very amicable divorce. The kids see us both equally, we communicate regularly about the kids, we NEVER bad mouth the other parent, etc. And the kids now have two absolutely wonderful step-dads who love them as their own. So if anything, my kids now have 4 great parents to love and support them. Is it ideal? No. But they are happy kids and I think this situation is much better than if their dad and I had just tried to tough it out for 15 more years. We would have both been miserable and probably would have finally divorced anyway after allowing many more years of anger and resentment to build up. This way, we left on pretty good terms which will benefit our kids.


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## wifeiam (Apr 1, 2013)

carolinahunt said:


> I recently confided in some friends about my husband and our unhappiness is the marriage, which has been ongoing for over 4 years and I am considering separation and she said...
> 
> 'YOu have kids and it is your duty to sacrifice all your happiness for their well being".
> 
> ...


I don't say this in judgement but just in sharing my personal belief which you seem to be asking for. If there is not abuse of any kind and the kids are in general happy in your home (they are subjected to a lot of fighting or misery) then I think it makes sense to stay for the kids. The unhappiness of seeing your kids struggling and all of you dealing with the challenges that blended family issues down the road can bring can outweigh the unhappiness of a an unfulfilling (but not toxic) marriage. I would not have divorced (at least til the children were grown and gone) if my children had not been in harm's way despite very much having been with the wrong person for me.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

In the case of addiction or abuse, it is best to leave. If it is something like "falling out of love" or communication problems, I think it is best to work on your issues before resorting to divorce.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> I agree that there are situations where it is the best option to divorce. Make sure that you understand all the ramifications of divorce and the affect on your children.
> 
> After you get all the information then I suggest that you ask yourself the question of; will you and your children be better off with a father or without a father?
> ...



Let me elaborate a little more about my statement of 
“will you and your children be better off with a father or without a father?”

With a father means a father in the household and having the opportunity to interact with the children a lot more than not being in the household?

Without a father means a father that is not in the household and not having the opportunity to interact with the children as much. Finacial considerations should also be considered.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Let me elaborate a little more about my statement of
> “will you and your children be better off with a father or without a father?”
> 
> With a father means a father in the household and having the opportunity to interact with the children a lot more than not being in the household?
> ...


This is quite old fashioned thinking. Shared care is very common (can only speak of where i live) and the courts will always give fair and equal access to both parents as long as both parents are fit and suitable adults.
If either parent is not fit and suitable then they are that whether the family stays intact or separates.

In my situation ex and I do 50/50 shared care so our children spend equal time with us. They also get very good quality time with each parent and more so than many intact families where either or both parents are not present due to work etc. So on my weeks the time is fully dedicated to the children, on their dads week his time is fully dedicated to them. He books his work travel for the weeks the kids are with me and I book activities for functions for the times they are with him.

Both parents have equal rights in divorce and the courts put children's interest to the fore.
We have a social security system that boosts single parents incomes and no alimony.

I would never suggest to anyone to keep their children in an untenable situation purely for financial reasons.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I have a friend in a miserable marriage... .her husband is just not a happy man, don't think I've ever seen him smile...or crack a joke (known her for 11 yrs now).... I've been to her house where she was talking to him and he won't even look up at her -couldn't be bothered .....she would ask him in front of me to look at her while she was talking ...(I wanted to crawl under a rock somewhere )....he still didn't look up.... 

This woman stays for her 2 girls.... No happiness in that house... you can just FEEL the tension.....other than her living her life for her children, being highly involved in their activities, schooling , church & friends....she throws herself into these things... and well...is a blessing to many...which feeds something in her... some measure of normalcy/ happiness in this life. 

If you didn't know her situation, you'd THINK she was a Joyous person with everything going for her...she even sings little songs to amuse/ uplift/ inspire other people....I remember one friend saying she does this more so for herself, it brightens her own spirits (I had to agree).... She has sat in my dining room (Christian woman here ) letting it all out like a torrent....swearing/ crying due to all the pent up frustration at home/ how he is/treats her /makes her feel like garbage -asking me why over & over ... apologizing to me- cause this is not how she is. (Very few see this side of her). 

She gets her happiness from outside that home....while dying on the inside ...I am sure she pushes thoughts out of what a fulfilling marriage must be like ......just to remain sane. 

This woman needs an OUTLET to cope....which she has found in her faith, her children, their many activities & her friends... She has an "Unworkable" husband... 

I've gathered....she fears what would happen if she left... when he has the 2 girls, that he may run off to get back at her (not sure if this is founded or not).... so she IS sacrificing her happiness for theirs. It's very sad to me that she has found herself in this awful situation. 

I really don't even know how to help her...her sacrifice is THAT great...it is written in stone.... is their emotional abuse there, I most definitely feel so.


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## carolinahunt (Mar 31, 2013)

Holland said:


> .
> 
> that boosts single parents incomes and no alimony.
> 
> I would never suggest to anyone to keep their children in an untenable situation purely for financial reasons.


Im not sure what you mean here? how does the income of the single parent get boosted?

I want to clarify:
-there is no phyiscal abuse
-there is no cheating
-he is a great father and loves his children intensely. They are 5 and 20 months old. 
-I do 90% of the stuff with the kids- I am a SAHM but also work part time and pursuing another degree
-we are in a situation where we married the wrong person, we are highly incompatible

We do:
-fight often in front of the kids
-have "get it over with" duty sex, sparingly


We do not:
-kiss
-hug
-express our love to each other
-have much in common outside of the kids

He does:
-make me feel unwanted
-not make me feel attractive, even though I am
-tell me I am disgusting and the way I live my life gives him stress
-reminds me that I married the wrong person
-tells me if we didnt have kids we would be divorced
-not love me for who I am, from the day I met him, he tried to change me, and I tried hard to change, but after 10 years, Im tired of trying. I want to be loved for ME, all of ME

I do:
-need him financially, as I am pursuing a new career and wont be established for at least 3 years from now
-want to be able to be home when the kids get home from school to help them with homework
-need health insurance! I have some illnesses that require the atttention of a doctor often
-yearn for and need the male bonding and sexual and emotional satisfation that I have been missing for a very long time.

I do not:
-want to ruin our beautiful kids because of my needs
-want to wake up in 20 years and regret living with a man who doesnt love me for who I am
-want to make the same mistake as my mother, she stayed married to my father who verbally abused her, and made her feel unworthy and the years of unhappiness are seen in her eyes, she has aged tremedously and is a very ill woman. 
-to live a strained life of a single mom, working around the clock trying to make a penny for food on the table. I dont know how he will react if I offered divorce. he may just snap and try to make my life miserable , he does have that tendency, he is a very revengeful person at times.

I am trying to weigh the pros and cons, that is why I am here asking the questions. THanks so much for your feedbacks


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

carolinahunt in Aussie we have a Social Security system, meaning the Govt pay families weekly money to go towards their living costs. Single parents get a single parents payment which is assets based. Also many 2 parent households get Govt assistance up to a certain income point.


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## carolinahunt (Mar 31, 2013)

Holland said:


> carolinahunt in Aussie we have a Social Security system, meaning the Govt pay families weekly money to go towards their living costs. Single parents get a single parents payment which is assets based. Also many 2 parent households get Govt assistance up to a certain income point.


I dont think we have that here in US. ONly child support and alimony.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr. Blunt
> Let me elaborate a little more about my statement of
> “will you and your children be better off with a father or without a father?”
> 
> ...





Based on your post you and your husband seem to be doing fairly well with you two being separated/divorced.

One of my points in addressing the OP is that it is your duty to sacrifice for the children. Also, I also said it is your duty to do everything you can to make the marriage work.


Let me try and give a bottom line to this.
If anyone sacrifices for the good of the children and the marriage and it works then the children will have an advantage over the other couple if they separate; with all things being equal.

You can call that “Old fashion thinking “ if you think that will boost up your point and run my down but I know what I have seen. I have worked with married and separate families for decades so I am not just taking your case to make my conclusion.

You have stated that your separate arrangement works well; good for you. However, *I am not going to buy that a good separate arrangement is as good as a good marriage.*


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Based on your post you and your husband seem to be doing fairly well with you two being separated/divorced.
> 
> One of my points in addressing the OP is that it is your duty to sacrifice for the children. Also, I also said it is your duty to do everything you can to make the marriage work.
> 
> ...


I would guess that the majority of people would agree that an amicable divorce situation is not as good as a good marriage however this was not the point of the OP nor is it my opinion. 

The question is about a bad marriage situation, not a good one. You stated that children lose their fathers in divorce, I merely showed that this is not always the case and IME is hardly ever the case unless the father (or mother) were not a fit parent to begin with.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> You have stated that your separate arrangement works well; good for you. However, *I am not going to buy that a good separate arrangement is as good as a good marriage.*


A good separate arrangement can never be as good as a _good _marriage, but it can be_ far_ better, and less damaging, than a _bad _marriage where the parties argue in front of the children - which is the case with the OP and her H.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> You have stated that your separate arrangement works well; good for you. However, *I am not going to buy that a good separate arrangement is as good as a good marriage.*


And I'm not going to buy that a good separate arrangement is worse than a BAD marriage.


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## AIP (Mar 31, 2013)

I don't know the answer but I'm in the same situation and know exactly what you mean. Based on what I've witnessed in other relationships, there are different problems that come with each decision. Of course you want it to be a good marriage for your kids and for you. It's difficult when it's a case of, there's no obvious abuse going on, but you're almost always at odds with each other. What is the best decision for kids? If you "sacrifice" is that even the right thing to do ? They are excellent questions, wish I knew.


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## carolinahunt (Mar 31, 2013)

Well it's also proper timing. A woman who's been home with kids and unemployed needs to be able to support herself. This is why I am not ready to jump the gun as unhappy I am....I feel the time may help us heal too. There is not right answer but you gotta weigh the pros and cons
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AIP (Mar 31, 2013)

Weighing the pros and cons is difficult when there are so many unknowns. If you have an unpredictable spouse it makes it even harder. But living like a prisoner or martyr isn't setting the best example either. There's always government assistance as a last resort if money is the main obstacle. Sounds cheesy, but as long as there's enough money to survive on, love is what's important, and showing your kids how to live with courage instead of fear.

Of course on the other hand, if there's joint custody, and your kids end up being left completely alone part of the time with a person who may do them harm emotionally, how is divorce then a courageous decision? For me, there's the rub.


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## justforfun1222 (Feb 6, 2013)

I was a single mom for 10 years, me and the kids were great, I am not the kind of person to really get lonely though, as I spent lots of time with them, and have hobbies I enjoy alone. Got married again, thought I had really found the one, seems that is not the case, my kids are begging me to get out of the marriage so I will be their happy carefree mom again.. the kids do matter, do all you can to try and save your marriage, but do not do it to the determent of your sanity from staying in a situation that is not healthy for you, and in turn not healthy for them. As for the statistics I saw earlier, I know PLENTY of kids that are from homes with both parents that are as screwed up or more screwed up than those of parents who got divorced.. who does these statistics anyway?? My kids are great kids, well adjusted and happy, always have been! Good luck, in the end you are the only one that can make the decision that will be best for you and your kids!


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Ask your self one more question (and maybe some of the readers)...

Do you want your children growing up with your marriage as the model for their future relationships? Because every parent wants their children to be emotionally healthy and happy. 

If they think it is OK and normal for Dad to never give warmth and emotion to Mom is that going to set a good example for THEIR future relationships? Do you want them to think that yelling and fighting is normal and to be expected from a relationship? Or should they see Mom and Dad working together to make sure both kids get what they need from both parents?

Ponder that.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I also thing the stats on single mothers are skewed by certain socio-economic groups where fathers are primarily absent. Statistics can be skewed to show whatever point you want to make.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

carolinahunt said:


> Well it's also proper timing. A woman who's been home with kids and unemployed needs to be able to support herself. This is why I am not ready to jump the gun as unhappy I am....I feel the time may help us heal too. There is not right answer but you gotta weigh the pros and cons
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The thread was thought provoking. I am a woman who stayed "for the kids" and your thread has me re-thinking this. Thanks for bringing it up!

I do think parents should sacrifice and do what is best for their children. In some cases leaving may be better for them than staying.

OTH, I think you are very wise to take your time with such a huge step and really weigh the pros and cons. 

Would your husband be willing to attend this with you to move your marriage to a healthier more hospitable atmosphere? Marriage Help Program For Couples


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Holland
> I would guess that the majority of people would agree that an amicable divorce situation is not as good as a good marriage however this was not the point of the OP nor is it my opinion.
> 
> The question is about a bad marriage situation, not a good one. You stated that children lose their fathers in divorce; I merely showed that this is not always the case and IME is hardly ever the case unless the father (or mother) were not a fit parent to begin with.


You are right the main question of the OP was not about amicable divorce situation VS good marriage. 
Although it can be connected your statement that the question is “The question is about a bad marriage situation, not a good one.” Is not 100% accurate

*The main question by the OP was*
*Re: It is your duty to sacrifice for the kids*
To which I answered



> Yes it is!
> Also, it is also your duty to do everything that you can to make the marriage work.
> Have you tried everything?
> What have you tried?
> You are going to sacrifice in your life with or without your husband.


I did not see a direct answer from the OP to my response above. That is when the thread started going into the somewhat connected issue of 
“The question is about a bad marriage situation"


From what the OP stated there are good points and bad points in the marriage such as 
“he is a great father and loves his children intensely, 
and the he does,
not love me for who I am, from the day I met him”

Because there are both good and bad in the marriage I was hoping that the bad points could be decreased or eliminated and the good points increased so that the marriage could be saved.

Another poster, Cosmos, stated
“A good separate arrangement can never be as good as a good marriage, but it can be far better, and less damaging, than a bad marriage where the parties argue in front of the children - which is the case with the OP and her H.” 
You agreed with this post.


Because there is more problems in the marriage than just arguing in front of the children , you may both be right. If you are both right then I addressed that with my previous post reprinted below:



> I agree that there are situations where it is the best option to divorce. Make sure that you understand all the ramifications of divorce and the affect on your children.
> 
> After you get all the information then I suggest that you ask yourself the question of; will you and your children be better off with a father or without a father?
> 
> ...


*Holland, if this is a marriage that is not going to get better and is so bad that the wife cannot take it any longer then I hope that the OP winds up like you and has an amicable serperation/divorce that is better than a hopelessly bad marriage *

*I still have a little hope that the marriage can be saved!*


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## AIP (Mar 31, 2013)

If you think that time may help heal things for you, it doesn't sound like a marriage you're ready to leave or should leave yet. In my situation, time seems to be making things worse. 

Enjoli, you are right, but then what do you do in a circumstance where your spouse's temper is independent of whether or not you live together? If you leave, your children will still see it as an example. The only difference is you won't be there to run interference.

I know this isn't the OP's circumstance, but I'm just saying there are situations where figuring out the most peaceful arrangement for the kids is complicated.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

carolinahunt said:


> Well it's also proper timing. A woman who's been home with kids and unemployed needs to be able to support herself. This is why I am not ready to jump the gun as unhappy I am....I feel the time may help us heal too. There is not right answer but you gotta weigh the pros and cons
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When I'd exhausted every avenue available to save my marriage, I focused on going back to work so that I could divorce and support my son and me. Once I'd made my decision, it was a lot easier than I'd thought it would be.

Single parenthood is hard work but, these days, with shared custody, things are possibly a lot easier on both children and parents.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

AIP said:


> If you think that time may help heal things for you, it doesn't sound like a marriage you're ready to leave or should leave yet. In my situation, time seems to be making things worse.
> 
> Enjoli, you are right, but then what do you do in a circumstance where your spouse's temper is independent of whether or not you live together? If you leave, your children will still see it as an example. The only difference is you won't be there to run interference.
> 
> I know this isn't the OP's circumstance, but I'm just saying there are situations where figuring out the most peaceful arrangement for the kids is complicated.


Yes, it can be very complicated. My ex had an awful temper. I waited until she was old enough to tell me if there was an abusive situation for me to leave - she was 4.5 when I left. Oddly enough he really watched his behavior - I think he knew he'd lose visitation if he put a hand on her. Instead he accused me of it when she got a bruise in a bounce house. 

Now she knows his love is conditional and she placates him just to keep him in her life and she is very cooperative with whatever he wants to do. I'd rather send her the message that being verbally abusive is not OK for either of us, but he is still her Dad. I try to expose her to men who are good for her to be around - BFF's husband, my father and the other men I have opted for her to meet. I want her to have examples of good men in her life.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> So long as there is no infidelity, physical, emotional or mental abuse, I am a strong believer in sticking to the marriage and making it work. You two married for a reason, and if you both commit to communicating effectively, both of you should be able to work through your issues.
> 
> I think when most people think about the ideas that "soulmates", "one true love" and "the one" does not exist - people assume that it's OK to divorce and look for someone else because there are plenty of other people who may be easier to get along with. But what about the flip side of that? If there truly aren't "soulmates", then in reality true love is about building something together and tending it to ensure that it stays strong. That - to me - is the flip side of the idea that there are no soulmates. But most people don't want to think that way because I believe a lot of people don't want to admit that marriage can be hard work.


i agree 100%. I think there are reasons that the kids would be better off if the parents were divorced, such as abuse or infidelity, but not just because somebody is unhappy that their toast isn't buttered on the right side.


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## AIP (Mar 31, 2013)

southbound said:


> i agree 100%. I think there are reasons that the kids would be better off if the parents were divorced, such as abuse or infidelity, but not just because somebody is unhappy that their toast isn't buttered on the right side.


It isn't always so cut and dry. For example, what would you say about this hypothetical fight between a husband and wife. Let's say they are talking about buying a new vacuum cleaner. 

_*Husband*: I think I found a good vacuum cleaner online. I emailed you information about it. It's a really good deal. 

*Wife*: (Checks email) That looks like a good vacuum cleaner and it is a nice deal. I think it might be too big for what we need though. Plus it's one of those that's two separate pieces. Those can be a pain to lug around. I was looking up some too and I found one or two I like. They're just lightweight ones but got good reviews and--

*Husband* (sighs and shakes his head, cutting her off): Fine.

*Wife*: Well, I'm just trying to describe--

*Husband* (coldly) Get whatever you want. I'm going to bed. 
(walks out of room) 

(After a few minutes, wife follows)
*Wife*: We can talk about it if you want. I didn't mean to shut you down or anything. I just have used that kind with two pieces before, and I'm the one who vacuums, so--

*Husband* (sarcastic): Yeah, you're the only one who ever vacuums.

*Wife*: Well, yes, I don't mind doing it, but yes. When do you vacuum then?

*Husband* (sighs and rolls eyes): Nevermind. I already said to get what you want. Can you leave me alone please?

*Wife*: You're obviously angry. 

*Husband*: So what. Like you care.

*Wife*: I do care. We can talk about it.

*Husband*: No thanks. Can you just leave me alone, please?

*Wife*: So we aren't going to talk for the rest of the night, over a vacuum cleaner?

*Husband*: Look, if you don't get the f--- out of this room, I swear--

*Wife*: What is your problem?

*Husband*: This! You! You acting like a b---- and not leaving me alone when I ask you nicely.

Wife says nothing.

*Husband*: Can you leave please?

*Wife*: Why are you talking to me like this? 

*Husband*: Because you never want to hear what my ideas are, we always have to do everything your way!

*Wife*: That isn't true, I just wanted to tell you my opinion. I listened to yours, I was telling you mine.

*Husband*: (makes some strangled noise of rage and hits the bed with his fists, looks up at the ceiling) Uh this marriage is so not worth it! GET...OUT! (stands up, pushes wife out of the room, shuts and locks door)_


So, the ways they approach each other could obviously be improved, but if they have tried marriage counseling over a long period of time and still get into similar fights every week or two, would you say they are just having communication problems, or is it something worse?


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

IMO - the dynamic changed significantly:
a) when he shuts her down when she likes another model (he can't discuss??? really? he takes her choice as criticism of his research)
b) when he shoves her out of the door (best to say I need some time)
c) he threatens (if you don't get the F away - although he did warn her)
d) when names are being called (b****)

Regardless of gender, the person trying to explain they liked a different model for legit reasons vs. disagreeing for the sake of argument, is the one in the wrong.

I have a feeling you are intentionally switching the sides but regardless my view is the same. And if this was happening over and over, yes at that point the kids are learning bad relationship dynamics and if there has been lots of counseling and no change in the way this couple relates, it's time to end it. No one should be chasing after the other to beg for understanding over mundane topics.


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## AIP (Mar 31, 2013)

> I have a feeling you are intentionally switching the sides but regardless my view is the same. And if this was happening over and over, yes at that point the kids are learning bad relationship dynamics and if there has been lots of counseling and no change in the way this couple relates, it's time to end it. No one should be chasing after the other to beg for understanding over mundane topics.


No, not changing roles. I'm a woman, and this kind of fight happens often with me and my husband. Don't mean to hijack the thread, but it's very hard to see the difference between "communication problems" and just a crazy hopelessly messed up marriage in some cases, especially being in the middle of it.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

carolinahunt said:


> Well it's also proper timing. A woman who's been home with kids and unemployed needs to be able to support herself. This is why I am not ready to jump the gun as unhappy I am....I feel the time may help us heal too. There is not right answer but you gotta weigh the pros and cons
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To this I agree. My wife had a very good career that she gave up for children. She wanted to be a SAHM. That was over 11 years ago. We went through a separation a couple of years ago and have since reconciled. We both realized how vulnerable she was if the reconciliation didn't work out. I realized this when talking to an attorney about divorce during the separation. We are in a no-alimony state with a couple of exceptions and one of them is if the spouse is unemployed for at least 10 years. If the spouse qualifies for it then alimony is significant. I make a good living but the financial picture would be bleak for both of us for a while.

She has decided on a mid-life career change and is now in an accelerated program to become a teacher. Financially, it doesn't have the earning potential of her prior career but it is what she wants to do. Thing is, she was a bad SAHM. She did nothing. A good mom but nothing else. I ended up working AND taking care of everything while she sat on her rear. It is amazing seeing her go through school and she is rocking it out. I almost see glimpses of the person I married. She still doesn't do anything around the house ... but at least now she has a legitimate reason, lol. I don't want to sound mean ... but it is really very close to the truth. 

We have a lot of challenges in our marriage and I'm all but ready to give up. I go in spurts ... try, fail, give up, try, fail, etc. Sometimes I really just think we are incompatible at this point in our lives. It is at once both of our faults and yet neither of us are at fault. People change. Some things that used to be tolerable are now unacceptable. "If you don't grow together, you are growing apart." I am not going to make any decisions until she finished school and established herself. No matter how difficult the marriage is, I do feel that I have that responsibility.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> So long as there is no infidelity, physical, emotional or mental abuse, I am a strong believer in sticking to the marriage and making it work. You two married for a reason, and if you both commit to communicating effectively, both of you should be able to work through your issues.
> 
> I think when most people think about the ideas that "soulmates", "one true love" and "the one" does not exist - people assume that it's OK to divorce and look for someone else because there are plenty of other people who may be easier to get along with. But what about the flip side of that? If there truly aren't "soulmates", then in reality true love is about building something together and tending it to ensure that it stays strong. That - to me - is the flip side of the idea that there are no soulmates. * But most people don't want to think that way because I believe a lot of people don't want to admit that marriage can be hard work*.


Hold on a second. It is true that SOME people believe that marriage should be easy and if it isn't then they weren't meant to be together. However, there are a whole lot of people out there who have gone through a great deal of effort, emotion and pain to try to get their marriage to work with few results. I feel as if I'm near the end of my marriage and there is nothing I've put more effort towards than trying to repair it. You said *if you both commit to communicating effectively, both of you should be able to work through your issues.* You are right, you can be the most skilled communicator out there but if you are talking to a bedpost then ...; it requires that both people are committed to that and are speaking the same language. You can't control what the other person is willing to do.

So don't look down on those who didn't "choose their soulmate", which I interpret as a person equally committed and up to the challenge of working on their marriage, and assume ... well, they just didn't try ... they took the easy way out. If I wanted to take the easy way out, I would have done that 15 years ago.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

AIP said:


> So, the ways they approach each other could obviously be improved, but if they have tried marriage counseling over a long period of time and still get into similar fights every week or two, would you say they are just having communication problems, or is it something worse?


Passive aggressive behaviour is emotionally abusive, and pushing and shoving someone out of a room is physically abusive... Yes, I'd say their problems go further than poor communication.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

carolinahunt said:


> I recently confided in some friends about my husband and our unhappiness is the marriage, which has been ongoing for over 4 years and I am considering separation and she said...
> 
> 'YOu have kids and it is your duty to sacrifice all your happiness for their well being".
> 
> ...


You are very short on details...What are your issues...Money, infidelity, sexless marriage, abuse?...We must know before we can give intelligent advice...


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

AIP said:


> Of course on the other hand, *if there's joint custody, and your kids end up being left completely alone part of the time with a person who may do them harm emotionally, *how is divorce then a courageous decision? For me, there's the rub.


^^Touche! This has been a huge motivation for my staying and attempting to make the best of it.

In the meanwhile- earned my RN so I can support the family if needed. 

I got an inspiration from this thread. If he doesn't shape up with how he treats the children, what if he comes home from work one day and we are gone permanently? What if we are moved to another state 500 miles away where some of our grown children live, with a job and a house waiting there? I am presuming the courts cannot FORCE me back to my former state and H would only see them for a month or two a year (less time, less opportunity to wound them).

Takes patience and time to get all the ducks in a row.

Meanwhile read Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. The link goes to googlebooks where there is a preview. Sound familiar?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Bancroft talks about what controlling punitive men sometimes do with joint custody here and I know people who have suffered some of this stuff.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Blonde said:


> ^^Touche! This has been a huge motivation for my staying and attempting to make the best of it.
> 
> In the meanwhile- earned my RN so I can support the family if needed.
> 
> ...


^^^Good!

That's what I've been trying to say on this thread.
This is a very delicate issue.
Make a wrong move and the kids suffer , enormously.
How do you know the decision to stay or go is the right one?

I think sobriety is the key. 
Weigh everything, the pros the cons. write them down.
Why staying in your situation may potentially be harmful for the kids.
And why leaving may be harmful to the kids. 
Weigh everything before making the decision.
These matters are not to be trifled with.

Some people run, and they just go from the frying pan straight into the fire.
Some people run and they become even more unhappy.
The wise ones think, plan , and then run.


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## AIP (Mar 31, 2013)

Blonde said:


> ^^Touche! This has been a huge motivation for my staying and attempting to make the best of it.
> 
> In the meanwhile- earned my RN so I can support the family if needed.


In the process of doing the same.

Thanks for the book recommendation and links.


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## swtluna (Mar 8, 2013)

Caribbean Man has words of wisdom... I have 5 children.. ages range from 20-1yr old.. I have also been unhappy for 5+ years.. We have been married almost 23 years.. "stalemate" refers to our marriage.. The reason why I don't just break it off... the kids.. Divorcing would affect the entire family just not him and I. Financially #1 reason.. #2 Reason my 3 year old, would be devastated if Dad was not home ..then being away from mom every weekend would be devastating not to just me but him as well along with my 1yr old..that is joined to my hip. You have to weigh the consequences.. My parents divorced when I was 3.. but I lived a normal life.. my dad was very much apart of my life, all birthdays we were all together, Christmas, all holiday's... But my parents divorced as friends, which allowed that to happen...Most often that dont happen, and I am pretty sure it would not happen in my case, because I would have to fight for everything, the house, the car, support.. that leads to resentment..resentment fuels anger.. But it can be normal for your children if It is handled the right way..You do deserve to be happy, and so does your spouse..There is nothing wrong with wanting that...It's what we all want right?
I would try to work things out. Do everything you can..so if you do split at least you can say I tried everything, just was not meant to be anymore.. time to move on.. Just remember that divorce affects everybody in the household..so make sure you are ready to handle what comes next.. And try to resolve differences without lawyers or family members chiming in.. Resolve the marriage peacefully and as friends.. it will be much easier on the children and dont use them as a pawn against each other..Children know more than you think.... Goodluck...my heart goes out to you.. I know how you feel...xoxoxoxo


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I also thing the stats on single mothers are skewed by certain socio-economic groups where fathers are primarily absent. Statistics can be skewed to show whatever point you want to make.


:iagree:

lies damn lies and statistics


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## itskaren (Dec 28, 2011)

carolinahunt said:


> I recently confided in some friends about my husband and our unhappiness is the marriage, which has been ongoing for over 4 years and I am considering separation and she said...
> 
> 'YOu have kids and it is your duty to sacrifice all your happiness for their well being".
> 
> ...


I actually agree TBH. My brother was 4 years old when my dad left. He has been in prison, takes drugs and has beat his partner. He has just put a rant of FB saying ''why oh why did dad leave me when I was 4? I was just a kid I need a dad!'' Heartbreaking really. :-(


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> ^^^Good!
> 
> That's what I've been trying to say on this thread.
> This is a very delicate issue.
> ...


 Excellent Post - *always Seek wisdom*, counsel from others wiser than yourself who truly cares about you....can see what you are facing/ weigh the pros & cons.... the children must continue to feel loved and whatever happens, do your best to get along with your EX -for their sake. 

My parents divorced when I was 9... I remember many fights, I was even happy when they divorced... My mother was the problem, she was not in love with my Father... she wasn't happy (another woman would have been -and was delightfully so when he married my Step Mother probably weeks after the divorce) ...

I can see why he wanted rid of her.. honestly... then she messed up her life even more after that.. what can you do with someone hell bent on making bad choices. 

I am happy my father found happiness at least, I see no sense in 2 people being miserable over their kids. Kids will adapt... I managed...I always felt loved by both (in spite of my mothers woes)... this is what is fundamentally important I guess....a safe environment, good friends growing up (to take some of the sting off ) and feeling loved by your parents...even if separated/ divorced. 

My 2 cents coming from a Divorced Home...


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