# Marriage for men in the US - a Russian roulette?



## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

In every situation with two parties, the "crazy"/manipulative/dishonest party who also holds a loaded gun, has the control. The one who talks as if they are willing to steer the airplane into the ground. Especially if they have the only parachute on board.

I've been wondering for a long time, would it not be an *idiotic* thing to do, for a man to marry a woman through the legal system of the US?

It seems to me like the US legal system encourages and rewards women within a marriage to become that "crazy" terrorist on board.

If I get into a legal contract with a cell phone carrier, and at some point they start to abuse our agreement, I can pay a reasonable cancellation fee and leave the contract for good.

If I get into a legal marriage in the US, as a male, I am totally at the mercy of my spouse. If she happens to reveal herself as a crazy one, the legal system immediately equips her with a loaded gun and a license to kill.

I don't believe women, in general, are as honest as some men can be. They simply don't have the integrity and accountability that some men do have. If you want to marry a honest woman, do not marry. Dealing with her dishonesty is not a question of "if", but "when". Their upbringing and society expectations do not judge them from early childhood by their reliability. Men are judged by their reliability (and many fail indeed, which is another story).
In the past this feminine dishonesty was possible to live with and even tolerate, since women were not given that "loaded gun" by the society.

I am not against marriage per se. I do want the lifelong friendship, partnership, cooperation, romance. I just know that the vast majority of women want something else, less mutual and more selfish (although they might not admit it even to themselves, sometimes).

I would not want to get on a flight where there's at least a 50% chance that it's going to crash. It seems to me marriage in the US has even less chances to last. There's nothing wrong with the concept of marriage. It's wonderful! It's the legal system that abused it and made it such a fraudulent deal (for men).

Your opinions?


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## Numlock (Mar 7, 2014)

Interesting assessment! I'm just coming to believe women are constantly seeking change and are never happy. I also believe society has a huge factor in it. Maybe women are just easily influenced by society, having to be like others to be "cool"?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I think the problem is it is too easy to divorce and too easy to get married and too easy to become a parent. Then the legal system gets involved.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

My opinion for the OP is that you should never get married in the US or any other country.


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

meson said:


> My opinion for the OP is that you should never get married in the US or any other country.


Meson, you are married (as far as I can see), and your signature reads "I don't want to not live because of my fear of what could happen."


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Avshalom said:


> If I get into a legal marriage in the US, as a male, I am totally at the mercy of my spouse.


Why do you assume men always get the short end of the stick? There are men here at TAM with 100% or 50% custody of minor children, men who pay NO alimony, men who split the assets 50/50 at the divorce. Are there men here who've gotten screwed? Absolutely. Are there women here who've gotten screwed? Absolutely.



> I don't believe women, in general, are as honest as some men can be. They simply don't have the integrity and accountability that some men do have.


 So you're judging ALL women against the cherry-picked SOME men who have integrity?!? Apples to oranges!

Can we not say 'men, in general, are not as honest as some women can be; they simply don't have the integrity and accountability that some women have'. In 2008 in the USA, 1 in every 18 men was incarcerated, but only 1 in every 89 women was incarcerated. This would seem to imply that men, in general, are less honest, less social, less trustworthy, less civilized than some women. But that would be saying that men, in general, are like the 5.56% that are incarcerated...not like the 94.44% who are NOT incarcerated.



> If you want to marry a honest woman, do not marry. Dealing with her dishonesty is not a question of "if", but "when". Their upbringing and society expectations do not judge them from early childhood by their reliability.


 I'm assuming that you don't live in the USA as your assumptions appear to be based on the lives of women several generations ago. When women had no power, no income, no legal standing it would make sense that they would be encouraged (overtly or covertly) to use deceit, trickery, manipulation, dishonesty to gain what they wanted or what they felt was their fair 'due'. Now that women can and do earn their own money, own their own property, live their own lives, make their own decisions/choices, why would you believe that (female?) society brings them up to be 'dishonest' in order to gain an advantage? 



> I am not against marriage per se. I do want the lifelong friendship, partnership, cooperation, romance. I just know that the vast majority of women want something else, less mutual and more selfish (although they might not admit it even to themselves, sometimes).


 I don't 'presume' to know what other people want without inquiring directly of those persons. 



> I would not want to get on a flight where there's at least a 50% chance that it's going to crash. It seems to me marriage in the US has even less chances to last. There's nothing wrong with the concept of marriage. It's wonderful! It's the legal system that abused it and made it such a fraudulent deal (for men).
> 
> Your opinions?


There are a fair number of women who no longer want to marry, either! They feel it is no picnic for them; that they shoulder the larger part of every burden EXCEPT income production.

BTW: Why just single out the USA? Why not point out that all of Westernized society has quite similar divorce rates and quite similar divorce laws? Why is the USA so much "worse" than everywhere else?

A very curious post!


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Avshalom said:


> Meson, you are married (as far as I can see), and your signature reads "I don't want to not live because of my fear of what could happen."


Yes, I am married and I know that you get out of it what you put in and expect. Since you expect to get screwed you will probably get screwed. Unfortunately this will also screw over someone else at the same time. The context of the quote by Laird Hamilton is that he would force down fear to live but his living by big wave surfing would only hurt himself if he ultimately payed the price. I do not recommend you do the same because it will hurt someone else.


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

> Why do you assume men always get the short end of the stick?


First, I am more interested in hearing people like you, who are in the opinion that marriage is still not such a bad deal for men (in the US).

(To say that marriage is a lousy deal for men in the US is quite obvious statistically, as I have demonstrated in my opening post. I am looking for opinions why it would still be worth it for a man in the US.)

However I would love opinions like yours to be accompanied with some reasoning that is relevant to me.

First I am a male, I do not seek a relationship with another male. So it's irrelevant to me in this regard if other men might be villains or criminals.

I have also been considering marrying in the US, which is where I reside now (I'm not a citizen though). Which is again why while I'm aware of the fact that things are similar in other Western countries, this is irrelevant to me.

I am a man who has never had a problem with the law in any country on the globe, who pays all his bills in due time. And I am quite concerned that the marriage contract in the US legal system is not a contract at all (for men) - although it's technically printed on a formal and visually impressive paper. It simply amounts to accepting into my life a potential terrorist who holds a pin-pulled grenade, and is allowed by law to throw it on me, a male, at will, with no true legal protection for me whatsoever.

My question should be the concern of every man in the US who considers getting married nowadays.

I do not see a lot of people get on a flight that has a 60% chance to crash, only because they have a good health insurance.

The fact that I might be able to hire a very expensive lawyer to get me out of a divorce in one piece, is still not a good enough reason for me to consider a marriage in the US to begin with.

Finally, you don't ask someone whether they are dishonest and untruthful. You infer this by listening to them and observing them.


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

meson said:


> Yes, I am married and I know that you get out of it what you put in and expect. Since you expect to get screwed you will probably get screwed.


This is amazingly naive and in huge contradiction to so many threads here and generally human nature and human history.

In dealing with other people you only get what you put in and expect, when the other person is truly an honest, trustworthy one, with at least the minimum required amount of conscience.

The whole purpose of legal contracts is to protect the honest party when the other party is not.

Otherwise we could have just shaken hands and know it's going to work.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Avshalom said:


> I don't believe women, in general, are as honest as some men can be. They simply don't have the integrity and accountability that some men do have. If you want to marry a honest woman, do not marry. Dealing with her dishonesty is not a question of "if", but "when". Their upbringing and society expectations do not judge them from early childhood by their reliability. Men are judged by their reliability (and many fail indeed, which is another story).
> In the past this feminine dishonesty was possible to live with and even tolerate, since women were not given that "loaded gun" by the society.
> 
> I am not against marriage per se. I do want the lifelong friendship, partnership, cooperation, romance. I just know that the vast majority of women want something else, less mutual and more selfish (although they might not admit it even to themselves, sometimes).
> ...


my opinion is that you have a terrible view of women.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Avshalom said:


> First, I am more interested in hearing people like you, who are in the opinion that marriage is still not such a bad deal for men (in the US).
> 
> (To say that marriage is a lousy deal for men in the US is quite obvious statistically, as I have demonstrated in my opening post. I am looking for opinions why it would still be worth it for a man in the US.)


 You're going to have to point that out SPECIFICALLY because I don't see ANY statistics in your opening post. I see a lot of generalizations and I see a lot of inflammatory and biased statements.



> However I would love opinions like yours to be accompanied with some reasoning that is relevant to me.
> 
> First I am a male, I do not seek a relationship with another male. So it's irrelevant to me in this regard if other men might be villains or criminals.


 I don't understand YOUR concept of 'logic'. You state that GENERALLY women are not as trustworthy as SOME men. That is an apples-to-oranges statement. Generally dogs are not as even-tempered as SOME horses. How can you compare a large group of something to a small subset of some other group when you're including EVERY member of the large group and only select members of the other group? Generalities are generally worthless.



> I have also been considering marrying in the US, which is where I reside now (I'm not a citizen though). Which is again why while I'm aware of the fact that things are similar in other Western countries, this is irrelevant to me.


 Okay, that makes sense.



> I am a man who has never had a problem with the law in any country on the globe, who pays all his bills in due time. And I am quite concerned that the marriage contract in the US legal system is not a contract at all (for men) - although it's technically printed on a formal and visually impressive paper. It simply amounts to accepting into my life a potential terrorist who holds a pin-pulled grenade, and is allowed by law to throw it on me, a male, at will, with no true legal protection for me whatsoever.


 You find pretty much what you expect to find in people. If you expect a wife to screw you over, you'll find she does (whether in anyone else's estimation she is or not). You will look at every action/in-action with a jaundiced eye...interpret everything in a more negative sense as an attempt to insulate yourself against attack. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.



> My question should be the concern of every man in the US who considers getting married nowadays.


 You are quite correct that if you feel you will NOT get treated equally, reciprocally, correctly, respectfully, however you choose to define it, then you SHOULD NOT get married. I'm sure you'll find plenty of women willing to cohabitate without feeling the need to get married. 

Since you are not FROM here, you should check the laws of the state in which you reside to see whether your state legally recognizes what is known as 'common-law' spouses. These are people who have NEVER legally married each other, yet the law 'recognizes' them as married and gives them the same 'rights' as married people (including division of assets if they split up). 



> I do not see a lot of people get on a flight that has a 60% chance to crash, only because they have a good health insurance.
> 
> The fact that I might be able to hire a very expensive lawyer to get me out of a divorce in one piece, is still not a good enough reason for me to consider a marriage in the US to begin with.


 I agree marriage might not be for you.



> Finally, you don't ask someone whether they are dishonest and untruthful. You infer this by listening to them and observing them.


 I don't see anyone disagreeing with this statement, either.

Best wishes for a successful life in the U.S.!


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> my opinion is that you have a terrible view of women.


Shoot the messenger!


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> You find pretty much what you expect to find in people. If you expect a wife to screw you over, you'll find she does (whether in anyone else's estimation she is or not). You will look at every action/in-action with a jaundiced eye...interpret everything in a more negative sense as an attempt to insulate yourself against attack. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.


You approach my words with some (probably preconceived) attitude about what men who ask questions like mine are like.

I guess, this attitude is based on your personal experience. Which is a legitimate experience to have. But don't judge me by your experience.

I am aware of the fact that there are many American men to whom your advice hits the nail right on the head. Furthermore, you're probably thinking some third-world guy is talking here with maybe a somewhat oldish attitude towards women...

No, nothing in this description is like me. Not even close. And all my American friends would vouch for that.

You just heard of too many people like that and you try to put me into one of those boxes which you already have in your mind.

I just know that there are honest people, dishonest people, and in between. With every other fraud, e.g. a fraudulent car dealer, I get some reasonable protection from the US legal system. Marriage is the exception (for men). I can be the perfect husband and father, and still be slaughtered at the family court by a potential wife if she chose to divorce.

As I've already mentioned in this thread, it's ridiculously naive to think that "You find pretty much what you expect to find in people." You are dismissing here so many human moral weaknesses, so many aspects of human nature, so many potential hidden personality disorders, such a long history of mankind paved with betrayals and cheating.... and an endless list of stories of wonderful, devout husbands and wives who were betrayed by their spouse.
I'm wholeheartedly happy for you that you are married to a spouse who has not made you (at least so far) doubt this assertion.You are truly blessed in this regard. But do you make every risky decision in your life simply with trusting your good luck/blessedness? Or do you (or your employer) purchase a good health and life insurance?

The issue is not my personal opinions on legal marriage and women in general in the US.

The issue is if and why, from a man's point of view, the benefits of a potentially good marriage might outweigh the fact that men are quite helpless when sued for divorce in the US legal system (for this thread, simply accept the latter as an axiom).


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Avshalom, 

If marriage is such a risk and such a bad deal. Why do you want to get married? Just live with the girl, it will be cheaper for you, and you will avoid the risk you are talking about. Or live celibate, it will be even better.

I do not see how women are so intrinsically dishonest.


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Avshalom,
> 
> If marriage is such a risk and such a bad deal. Why do you want to get married? Just live with the girl, it will be cheaper for you, and you will avoid the risk you are talking about. Or live celibate, it will be even better.
> 
> I do not see how women are so intrinsically dishonest.


Why do you insist on making it my private problem?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Hit Paul Elam's site avoiceformen.com quite informative.


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## browneyes74 (Sep 1, 2013)

Because you insist on making broad generalizations about people without facts.. So, yeah, that's probably based on your personal problems.. 

And I know lots of people that can tell that story too, so there! I have just as much "proof" and "facts" on that as you!


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## browneyes74 (Sep 1, 2013)

Okay, now for the serious answer.. 

Honestly, it depends on the state you live in.. If my STBXH wasn't such a piece of sh*t human being, he'd probably have 50% placement of the kids.. he's threatening to go for custody, but as my lawyer just told me, *I* can't even get sole custody in my state from the vicodin addicted alcoholic, b/c and I quote, "can he still talk to you about decisions about the kids? Then the courts don't care. He gets joint custody. End of story." 

Seriously.. My DRUG ADDICTED, ALCOHOLIC EX *WILL* get joint custody, unless he's physically incoherent and unable to speak.. LITERALLY.. 

So, the fact that he drinks and drives with the kids is something we have to fight about in court.. 

But, I'm a woman.. What do I know? It's "Oh-So-Fair for ME" Right? 

Bullsh*t.. 

So.. As other people have said.. If YOU think it's so unfair, don't get married. Problem solved.. You might think ALL men are screwed, but that's your OPINION.. And NOT a fact.. And you might hang out with a bunch of other men who feel the same, so, here's the true beauty of America.. NONE of you have to get married.. Yay for you! You can all stay single and unencumbered and talk about the bullet you dodged on Saturday night  Win, win..


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Browneyes, do not get too excited, this thread is meant to create controversy and get people all riled up. Do not fall in the trap.


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

browneyes74 said:


> it depends on the state you live in..


When I was at elementary school, I was taught "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link".

A legal system is as just as its least just cases. Or at least its general rule.

You are married to one of those losers, who cannot pay you much (probably not a good job, or unemployed).

From my point of view, I look at men who can lose a lot during divorce. Women recognize this. Some act on this. It might motivate some women to consider divorce. You cannot always predict this. The US law recognizes this and protects women, everywhere. In most places, it neglects to protect men.


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

tom67 said:


> Hit Paul Elam's site avoiceformen.com quite informative.


Eye-opening


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Browneyes, do not get too excited, this thread is meant to create controversy and get people all riled up. Do not fall in the trap.


Not so


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Avshalom said:


> don't judge me by your experience


...says the man who judges ALL women and the American Legal System on what he's heard! 

It's obvious YOU don't want to have any kind of discussion; you're a know-it-all! 

It's OBVIOUS to everyone (but you) that the solution to your problem is NOT to marry! I was even kind enough to point out to you to watch out for states with 'common-law marriages' (which I doubt you even bothered to Google).

So, you don't want to DISCUSS, you just want to be RIGHT.

Okay, you're right! So, don't get married. Seems pretty simple!


...moving on...NEXT!


.


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> the solution to your problem is NOT to marry
> .


I don't think so. I've explained I mainly want to hear from men who are aware of and acknowledge the problematic legal situation for married men, but still see getting married as something they would have done today.

I'm not interested in
1. Legal workarounds for marriage, they are irrelevant to my specific situation.... 
2. The "so don't get married and leave us alone" kind of replies since it useless to the average man who contemplates getting married but is troubled by the legal situation.
3. Analysis of my personality.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Avshalom said:


> In every situation with two parties, the "crazy"/manipulative/dishonest party who also holds a loaded gun, has the control. The one who talks as if they are willing to steer the airplane into the ground. Especially if they have the only parachute on board.
> 
> I've been wondering for a long time, would it not be an *idiotic* thing to do, for a man to marry a woman through the legal system of the US?
> 
> ...


You can get a real b*tch at the animal rescue league.
However, US law does not allow you to f*ck it.

Seriously, I can see you are coming from a male point of view.
But if you were a female, you could probably say the same thing about males. However, sweatheart, you sound like a misogynist.
In general, for both genders, marriage is a bad legal and financial risk, as is having children with another person to whom you could be legally tied for 18 years at a minimum, more if there are issues.
It's better not to be married at all, and to have your children on your own. Especially if you don't regard the opposite gender as a good risk. 
But if you need a firm commitment, and always the upper hand, see my first suggestion. Don't worry about the second part about the US laws, many marriages are sexless anyhow. 
You could also think about marriage to a man, same gender, which is now legal in many of the US states. Perhaps you would fare better with someone more your equal in morality and ethics, according to your own judgement.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Duguesclin said:


> Browneyes, do not get too excited, this thread is meant to create controversy and get people all riled up. Do not fall in the trap.


thats what i was thinking when i read the OPs first post. 

the OPs views seem very misogynistic to me.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> You can get a real b*tch at the animal rescue league.
> However, US law does not allow you to f*ck it.
> 
> Seriously, I can see you are coming from a male point of view.
> ...


plus, you can cheat on a dog all day long. it wont care.
hmm... may have found a way to have our cake and eat it too...
:rofl:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> Avshalom,
> 
> If marriage is such a risk and such a bad deal. Why do you want to get married? Just live with the girl, it will be cheaper for you, and you will avoid the risk you are talking about.


Alas, common law marriage in a number of states considers a couple married after a certain number of years... Many companies provide benefits for 'domestic partners' and so on. So that depends on where you live.

Also depending on where you live is the likely outcome of said Russian roulette vis a vis alimony, child support, and custody. When I investigated those issues a few years ago I was blown away to find out that in our (very wealthy and very conservative) county the mother has to be deranged and then some in order to provide sole custody or primary custody to the father. All because of a handful of very, ehem, judicially active members of the local court.


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## browneyes74 (Sep 1, 2013)

Avshalom said:


> When I was at elementary school, I was taught "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link".
> 
> A legal system is as just as its least just cases. Or at least its general rule.
> 
> ...


And again, you make assumptions based on nothing.. He will pay, and pay handsomely.. 

What country are you from anyway? Just curious..


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## Avshalom (Feb 28, 2014)

browneyes74 said:


> And again, you make assumptions based on nothing.. He will pay, and pay handsomely..
> 
> What country are you from anyway? Just curious..


A drug addict that pays handsomely. What a wonderful country.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Avshalom said:


> A drug addict that pays handsomely. *What a wonderful country*.


Then go somewhere else. 

If you don't want to marry in the US, then don't.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Avshalom said:


> This is amazingly naive and in huge contradiction to so many threads here and generally human nature and human history.
> 
> In dealing with other people you only get what you put in and expect, when the other person is truly an honest, trustworthy one, with at least the minimum required amount of conscience.
> 
> ...


You are making a serious mistake. It is as if you went to divorce court and watched what went on. And then came away with the opinion that marriages never work.

TAM is a place where marriages in trouble come for advice. You can't judge all marriages by what you see here.

In general if there are no children and no other legal problems, nobody much cares what happens when two people who live together split up. What society does care about is children. To avoid having children basically abandoned, ill-treated, or just simply neglected, there are laws to protect them. THAT is where the complications in divorce come from.

As far as statistics go, more than 50% of couples living together break up. Married couples have a break-up rate of about 45%. About the only conclusion I can come to with that data is that folks born in the last 50 to 60 years often have NO IDEA of the stresses in marriage. They often also fail at communication. The basic idea out there is that men and women speak the same language. Anybody reading TAM at any length can see that that isn't true.


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## Tess112 (Mar 9, 2014)

Heh, my fiance won't marry me for these exact reasons. We've been engaged for nearly 10 years now. 

He claims the courts are stacked against men and how if we were to split, he'd be taken to the cleaners and his bank accounts would be "plundered". He says that marriage is just a piece of paper - that he doesn't need to marry me to show his commitment to me, etc. etc. I even offered to sign a prenup. Still no, his excuse being a judge can toss it out and then he'd be screwed. 

In his defense, I have read plenty of horror stories about these viscous women totally destroying their spouses. So a part of me understands, but I'm still a little hurt over it.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

does a peice of paper (marriage certificate) mean you love eachother more?

In my opinion marriage is a fools game.

very large % failure rate.
and the consequence finaincaly could be life alterting.

anybody male or female who gets married better protect their assets.

Just sayin.............buyer beware.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> does a peice of paper (marriage certificate) mean you love eachother more?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

In some situations it does seem the courts basically teach a man that if he takes extra good care of his wife while they're married he'll end up taking extra good care of her via alimony for many years after the divorce.

My ex was lucky,I'm sure I could have taken much more than I did when I left. His attorney told him he was lucky too.However,I didn't feel entitled to his properties and money.I didn't work to obtain those things like he did.So I left it alone. 
If my DH and I ever get divorced the situation will be much different,I WILL take my half of OUR assets bc we built them together and I am entitled to my 50%.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> My ex was lucky,I'm sure I could have taken much more than I did when I left. His attorney told him he was lucky too.However,I didn't feel entitled to his properties and money.I didn't work to obtain those things like he did.So I left it alone.


This is how it was for me, too. I literally walked away with almost nothing (except for my car, the one I paid for, my clothes, and some trinkets). He kept the house and everything. I did not try to take his boat, benz, beamer, a vacation home he got during our marriage, or anything in his bank account.

I probably would have fared better with a pre-nup but we didn't have one. I guess I don't really care either.

It's so annoying when people say those kind of divorces don't exist.

As for marriage -- it's not something I feel I need to do again. And I am woman. Russian Roulette, as the thread suggests? Sure. I mean, everything is a gamble in life. No such thing as a guarantee except for dying. I have done it before and can honestly say it has no appeal for me.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

The amount of people telling me I was an idiot for not taking anything was almost as astounding as how many people said "so what did ya get in the divorce?" ugh.

It's almost like it's expected and accepted. It just isn't right.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The amount of people telling me I was an idiot for not taking anything was almost as astounding as how many people said "so what did ya get in the divorce?" ugh.
> 
> It's almost like it's expected and accepted. It just isn't right.


Oh meeeeee too, girl. You wouldn't believe the "Are you nuts" things I heard from people or others saying how I deserved more since I was with him so long. How it wasn't right he was getting everything. And sure, I could have opted not to be a martyr but the way I saw it was, I just wanted it to be done. It was traumatic enough as-is. The freedom to be done was priceless. No monetary amount could equate to that.

Mr. Ex Jelly could not even believe how I didn't want anything. If he ever marries and divorces, I know he is going to remember me for all time and remember me very well.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

My ex got a massive wodge of cash in hand and waltzed away with no debt, everything he wanted from the house and no obligation to provide one solitary penny

He's in debt now though. Cash has gone. Boo hoo.

It's why I'll always be able to provide for myself - never relying on anyone else for my financial security


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Dollystanford said:


> It's why I'll always be able to provide for myself - never relying on anyone else for my financial security


Bingo! :iagree:

Not having my own cash/money and relying on someone else for it is a very scary thought to me.

No, thank you!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> does a peice of paper (marriage certificate) mean you love eachother more?
> 
> In my opinion marriage is a fools game.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Although I think it's only a fools game if you don't protect yourself. I have a few friends who are happy and married. The only difference between my story and them is that they chose wisely in a woman and I didn't. Making a sound choice and not and emotional one is a good way to go.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> YoIn general if there are no children and no other legal problems, nobody much cares what happens when two people who live together split up. What society does care about is children. To avoid having children basically abandoned, ill-treated, or just simply neglected, there are laws to protect them. THAT is where the complications in divorce come from.
> 
> .


I emphatically disagree with this post. I actually feel that reality is the exact opposite of what you are saying. Society not only does not care about children, the divorce laws are aimed at _harming_ children.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Tess112 said:


> Heh, my fiance won't marry me for these exact reasons. We've been engaged for nearly 10 years now.
> 
> He claims the courts are stacked against men and how if we were to split, he'd be taken to the cleaners and his bank accounts would be "plundered". He says that marriage is just a piece of paper - that he doesn't need to marry me to show his commitment to me, etc. etc. I even offered to sign a prenup. Still no, his excuse being a judge can toss it out and then he'd be screwed.
> 
> In his defense, *I have read plenty of horror stories about these viscous women totally destroying their spouses. So a part of me understands, but I'm still a little hurt over it*.


If after TEN YEARS he can't tell the difference between YOU and them....I'd be more than just a little hurt over it! Doesn't sound like he has a very good opinion of you.

Do you at least have your own income? Do you have joint ownership in any property you have bought in the last 10 years? Are you legally protected in case he died tomorrow? Or will you be out on the street looking for a new place to live because you have no ownership of your current dwelling where you've lived for the past 10 years?

Things to think about and discuss with a legal professional for your own security and peace of mind!

Best Wishes in 2014!


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Avshalom said:


> In every situation with two parties, the "crazy"/manipulative/dishonest party who also holds a loaded gun, has the control. The one who talks as if they are willing to steer the airplane into the ground. Especially if they have the only parachute on board.
> 
> I've been wondering for a long time, would it not be an *idiotic* thing to do, for a man to marry a woman through the legal system of the US?
> 
> ...


My opinion is your brush is way to broad to do any accurate painting.

The problem lies in the SMALL percentage of people who have zero issues in lieing or manipulating the system. The man who hides assets or the woman who falsely accuses domestic violence, just to name a couple examples. Those are the people who screw with the process.

Part of the problem is lawyers make more money the more contentious the divorce becomes. Lawyers, commonly, advise their clients to "go for the jugular" and this is where you get a lot of these issues. 

I went through a rough divorce. I also remarried. I love being married. I love the commitment greater than myself. I love having a family look to me for the strength I provide to the household. I love my younger kids looking at "Mom and Dad" and not being able to imagine living a life that wasn't that way. What I did was LEARN from my first marriage and LEARN how to choose a good woman. I refused to become jaded and think all women are like my ex-wife, because they're not.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Tess112 said:


> Heh, my fiance won't marry me for these exact reasons. We've been engaged for nearly 10 years now.
> 
> He claims the courts are stacked against men and how if we were to split, he'd be taken to the cleaners and his bank accounts would be "plundered". He says that marriage is just a piece of paper - that he doesn't need to marry me to show his commitment to me, etc. etc. I even offered to sign a prenup. Still no, his excuse being a judge can toss it out and then he'd be screwed.
> 
> In his defense, I have read plenty of horror stories about these viscous women totally destroying their spouses. So a part of me understands, but I'm still a little hurt over it.


I've never been able to understand this. So he wants to spend the rest of his life with you (just not on paper) but doesn't trust you 100%?

If I didn't trust someone 100%, I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life with them.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> In 2008 in the USA, 1 in every 18 men was incarcerated!


This is a derailment, but that's just a crazy amount of Gulag for any country.

I thought America stood for freedom?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Sandfly said:


> I thought America stood for freedom?


You obviously listen to our politicians more than I do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

According to Avshalom I'm dishonest because I'm a woman.

Bit of a narrow view there.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> According to Avshalom I'm dishonest because I'm a woman.


You expect us to believe that?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> You expect us to believe that?


Believe what?

That I'm dishonest because I'm a woman?

Or that the OP believes that all women are dishonest?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Believe what?
> 
> That I'm dishonest because I'm a woman?
> 
> Or that the OP believes that all women are dishonest?


It was a joke.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Avshalom said:


> (To say that marriage is a lousy deal for men in the US is quite obvious statistically, *as I have demonstrated in my opening post. *I am looking for opinions why it would still be worth it for a man in the US.)


You failed to demonstrate a damned thing. You simply said it. That demonstrates nothing but your opinion.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

OP:

If you're willing to take off your depression tinted glasses you'll see that when smart men and smart women get to know each other and enter into marriage with clear expectations and obligations they can have happy marriages that provide lifelong love, companionship and (usually) a gaggle of babies and grand babies.

There are many posters on TAM that are in happy marriages. There are many happy men here who have amazing wives that I think any sane man would want to be married to.

But if you begin by expecting disaster then there is a good chance you'll end up in a disaster marriage.

The divorce rate for college educated couples who are both at least 25 when they marry is low like 20% and 10% for those over 30.

An enormous body of data shows that on average a divorcee's living standard drops after divorce while a divorced man's living standard increases.

This may not be true for any one person but that is the trend. But don't base your life on statistics. Base it on your own ability to control your actions.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Wow somebody needs to waltz into the 20th century already. There are an amazing number of women out there who make 6 figure incomes who are at as high a risk of getting taken to the cleaners as a male breadwinners. This is more about money than anything else. If your so concerned about money I suggest you find an educated women with a extremely lucrative career. ***be aware women in this category are not usually docile submissive females***
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Historically, the gender that most often was the recipient of state sponsored sodomy was male. That gap has closed some in recent years. The problem isn't so much the institution marriage, but the lawyers and kangaroo courts that get involved at its end.

I think the following would make the idea of marriage more appealing to both genders. 

1. No spousal support. 
2. Separate accounts are personal property.
3. Assets acquired during the marriage are split 50/50.
4. No assuming of each others debts.
5. Each responsible for their own attorney fees in event of divorce.
6. Child custody should default to 50/50 with no option for child support unless there is evidence of abuse, drugs, abandonment, etc.

All of these can be obtain via pre-nup, excepting #6.


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## Counterfit (Feb 2, 2014)

Marriage for men in the US is like playing Russian Roulette but with a round in all six chambers...........the only way to "win" is by not playing in the first place.........


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## Counterfit (Feb 2, 2014)

Avshalom said:


> In every situation with two parties, the "crazy"/manipulative/dishonest party who also holds a loaded gun, has the control. The one who talks as if they are willing to steer the airplane into the ground. Especially if they have the only parachute on board.
> 
> I've been wondering for a long time, would it not be an *idiotic* thing to do, for a man to marry a woman through the legal system of the US?
> 
> ...


1. Read "From Courtship to Courtroom : What Divorce Law is Doing to Marriage" by Jed H Abraham

2. Google "MGTOW"

3. View YouTube and listen to Sandman, Stardusk, ThinkingApe

4. The fears you describe and sense are real.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Do you have a US women stalking you or trying to trick or force you into an alliance? That's illegal in the US you know. Marriage is voluntary. You can live a very nice life without ever marrying a US woman. 

Your anxiety seems to center around US women and not women per se?. I have good news for you. 

There are many countries with women who consider men from the US of some worth. I've heard that in many of these places the woman can be trusted not to D. 

The consequences of D for a woman far outweighs staying in a miserable marriage. It's 19th century redux. 

Why don't you go there and see how it works out, or not. It's a free world. Don't listen to me though. I am a US woman and I may be sending you on a fools errand. Find confirmation form a US man, they can be trusted implicitly. 

I am certain some woman somewhere in the US will be sad to see the back of you. Perhaps not, they can't be trusted.

Glad to help.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Yes indeed, try the Ukraine.

Half of them between the ages of 20 and 40 are 12 out of 10 for manners, elegance, looks, intelligence, genetics, health and family values.

You'll need to be in good shape yourself however, if you don't want to get stiffed.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Cathy dear, joking apart, do you think there is any basis to the OP's original whine?

In my local paper under the court rulings section, I noticed that all the DUI's and Arrests for violence while intoxicated were women this week.

Do they need oppressing?


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Counterfit said:


> 1. Read "From Courtship to Courtroom : What Divorce Law is Doing to Marriage" by Jed H Abraham
> 
> 2. Google "MGTOW"
> 
> ...


Just writing on the wall for Western civilization.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Sandfly said:


> Cathy dear, joking apart, do you think there is any basis to the OP's original whine?
> 
> In my local paper under the court rulings section, I noticed that all the DUI's and Arrests for violence while intoxicated were women this week.
> 
> Do they need oppressing?


Sand darling, from what I've seen, men and woman are just about the same. We have grievances against each other for different sins. 

What purpose would it serve to trade instances of male and female wrongdoing? I am married to a man and I have a son and daughter. 

I'm here to better understand my husband as a man. I've gotten over the vilification of men due to a painful hx. Thankfully my tenure here on TAM hoped enormously. 

The knee jerk negative things men say about woman effects their relationships. Early in my marriage, my husband and his friends would make comments about woman being emotional, ****s, talking too much etc. 

It's so common that it did not register on a conscious level. During a fight, he made a comment about women being too emotional. 

He completely dismissed my feelings. That caused a lot of problems. It is probably more common than men realize. 

My advice, be careful what you say. Better yet, purge your mind of bias and you won't say off putting things.


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