# The Way It Should Be



## Simple Dude (Dec 21, 2016)

I don't try and change the universe But . I so feel if your Marriage partner has change over the years to a position of lack of sexual desire, No affection, No Sex, And if you accept that that is the way things are with them. But you enjoy every other aspect of the relationship. And you yourself want to honor what they desire in their own life. Then they should allow you the same space in your life . If one doesn't want sex, Can they say you can't have Sex ether . Or should they say thanks for allowing me my space for what I want in life and I want you to fine a sexual partner to enjoy what you want in life. And we meet in the middle. Everyone is Happy.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Simple Dude said:


> I don't try and change the universe But . I so feel if your Marriage partner has change over the years to a position of lack of sexual desire, No affection, No Sex, And if you accept that that is the way things are with them. But you enjoy every other aspect of the relationship. And you yourself want to honor what they desire in their own life. Then they should allow you the same space in your life . If one doesn't want sex, Can they say you can't have Sex ether . Or should they say thanks for allowing me my space for what I want in life and I want you to fine a sexual partner to enjoy what you want in life. And we meet in the middle. Everyone is Happy.


Makes perfect sense.

The only problem is that for most people, the Sex will turn into Love. Then the marriage will be over.

Best solution is to divorce. Find someone you are fully compatible with and be with them.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Simple Dude said:


> I don't try and change the universe But . I so feel if your Marriage partner has change over the years to a position of lack of sexual desire, No affection, No Sex, And if you accept that that is the way things are with them. But you enjoy every other aspect of the relationship. And you yourself want to honor what they desire in their own life. Then they should allow you the same space in your life . If one doesn't want sex, Can they say you can't have Sex ether . Or should they say thanks for allowing me my space for what I want in life and I want you to fine a sexual partner to enjoy what you want in life. And we meet in the middle. Everyone is Happy.


I suppose this works if you see the sexual part of a relationship and the rest of a relationship as separate, unrelated entities.

I don't.

I want to share physical intimacy with the same person with whom I share all the other forms of intimacy. Either the marriage is a complete marriage or it is no marriage at all. For me, what you suggest solves nothing. I'm not one to want sex outside my primary relationship, even if it was agreed to.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I actually agree that if someone doesn't want sex, they should be OK with their partner getting it elsewhere, but many people who don't want sex, also don't recognize its importance to others. Some are also afraid that if their partner gets sex somewhere else, they will leave - which is a valid fear since for many people sex / love / romance are all tightly tied together.


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## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/424945-russians-here.html


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Well, it would make sense, OP, but it's usually not so simple. Your partner may not be okay with you getting it elsewhere, even if she no longer wants sex. Before you pursue this, I'd suggest she see a hormone specialist - if she's willing - and try to boost her libido. There are various pills, supplements, and creams that can help with this. If she's not interested in even trying that, then you can try to negotiate an open marriage with her. Getting consent may be the biggest obstacle, especially if your wife has a strong monogamous viewpoint despite her lack of sexual interest now. I don't know if that would mess up your marriage, or not. For us, it's not a problem at all. We don't tend to develop intense feelings for others, though. If we did, we're also polyamorous, so it might not be a problem, anyway, and we have experience managing such relationships. However, your chances of _finding_ someone else to have sex with could be very difficult as a married man. You'd do far better to get divorced so you can honestly say you're available - your odds increase dramatically. Still, you may find someone, but it could take months, even years. I don't often find a new partner, but when I do, they tend to stick around for years.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

That makes perfect sense, in theory. The reality is that your partner wants you for emotional support and often financial support. You're supposed to be both a friend and breadwinner, and stay in that arrangement. If you start having sex with another person, she knows you might become emotionally attached and start providing those resources to the new partner. So she expects you will stay in the relationship, feeding the parasite, with the parasite providing little symbiotic value. In other words, if you suggest this arrangement, you will encounter extreme resistance and hostility.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Ooh! I like the parasite analogy!


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## Simple Dude (Dec 21, 2016)

Well, I get that this would seldom ever work out. I have even heard of Lower Drive spouse's not happy that the HD even Masturbate


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Simple Dude said:


> Well, I get that this would seldom ever work out. I have even heard of Lower Drive spouse's not happy that the HD even Masturbate


Yup. Any attention you pay to another person is a threat, even if it's a photo in a Victoria's Secret catalog. You're supposed to be complete devoted to your partner and stay in a state of eternal frustration and emasculation. When you make a threat to leave, the spigot will be begrudgingly turned on again with just enough output to keep you around. You're supposed to be thankful at that point.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Yup. Any attention you pay to another person is a threat, even if it's a photo in a Victoria's Secret catalog. You're supposed to be complete devoted to your partner and stay in a state of eternal frustration and emasculation. When you make a threat to leave, the spigot will be begrudgingly turned on again with just enough output to keep you around. You're supposed to be thankful at that point.


I hope that OP gets the sarcasm in this post...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I would not chose a relationship like that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> I hope that OP gets the sarcasm in this post...


Even if sarcastic, there is still a lot of truth to it. 

The LD partner often just wants the HD partner to suck it up and keep on providing his/her services and accept that sexuality/affection/romance/intimacy are no longer a part of the package.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Simple Dude said:


> I don't try and change the universe But . I so feel if your Marriage partner has change over the years to a position of lack of sexual desire, No affection, No Sex, And if you accept that that is the way things are with them. But you enjoy every other aspect of the relationship. And you yourself want to honor what they desire in their own life. Then they should allow you the same space in your life . If one doesn't want sex, Can they say you can't have Sex ether . Or should they say thanks for allowing me my space for what I want in life and I want you to fine a sexual partner to enjoy what you want in life. And we meet in the middle. Everyone is Happy.


That may sound very gracious in principle. 

But in practice, it much more complicated.

People are inherently self-serving and innate protect their own best interests. 

People are always going to gravitate towards those that share their passions, values and priorities and will tend to leave behind those that don't.

If someone has lost their attraction and desire for their partner, they know that if their partner still values desire and sexuality, that if they get with someone that does desire and are intimate with them, there is a real likelyhood that they are going to be left behind and that person will no longer provide services and resources for them (whatever those services and resources may be)

The depriving partner typically wants the deprived to continue providing spousal services to them such as income, child care services, home making services, marital status in the community etc etc even though they do not desire the spouse sexually. 

Very few will willingly approve an open marriage (unless they are attracted to and wanting to get down with others as well) because they know they will ultimately get cut off completely in time.

And the person seeking the outside entertainment will also eventually become disenchanted.

It's easy to think one could outsource the missing piece and all will be well but that is rarely the case.

Men almost always "affair down" in such arrangments if they are able to find a participant at all. Most will not be able to find an acceptable long term playmate because women innately guard themselves against being a recreational side-piece.

And while married women will have unlimited options and opportunities in outsourcing sex, most women themselves are not wired for an indefinate arrangment of comparmentalizing their lives to that degree in a healthy manner.

For both men and women, it is usually a short term, stop gap measure until some kind of permanent fix is made or they carry on with a fairly low degree of true happiness and satisfaction. 

There are people that do chose this as an ongoing lifestyle choice. But most of those people have resigned themselves that it will be a series of temporary hook ups until the kids are grown or some other conceptual financial deadline is reached.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I suppose this works if you see the sexual part of a relationship and the rest of a relationship as separate, unrelated entities.
> 
> I don't.
> 
> I want to share physical intimacy with the same person with whom I share all the other forms of intimacy. Either the marriage is a complete marriage or it is no marriage at all. For me, what you suggest solves nothing. I'm not one to want sex outside my primary relationship, even if it was agreed to.


Its always so nice to read your posts RMY. You always come across as such a decent man.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Simple Dude said:


> I don't try and change the universe But . I so feel if your Marriage partner has change over the years to a position of lack of sexual desire, No affection, No Sex, And if you accept that that is the way things are with them. But you enjoy every other aspect of the relationship. And you yourself want to honor what they desire in their own life. Then they should allow you the same space in your life . If one doesn't want sex, Can they say you can't have Sex ether . Or should they say thanks for allowing me my space for what I want in life and I want you to fine a sexual partner to enjoy what you want in life. And we meet in the middle. Everyone is Happy.


 Sounds like a horrible idea.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now I will also say this - if someone knowingly deprives their mate of a critical component to their happiness and well being and they continue to deny them them despite conscientious effort on the deprived person's part to due their marital duties and it has been the topic of rightful discussion and professional counseling etc and they still deny them - 

- then they no longer have the right to expect a lasting marriage nor do they have the right to expect their partner's sexual fidelity.

To insist on remaining married and demanding sexual fidelity while denying your partner's needs is iinherently unfair.

It is therefor unrealistic to expect them to play fair and not seek comfort elsewhere.

I am not saying that infidelity is right or just. 

I am saying if you aren't playing fair, it is unrealistic to expect your deprived partner to play fair and play by the rules either.

If someone comes to me boo hooing that their spouse is cheating on them or that they are leaving the marriage for someone else or are hooking up with someone as they are on their way out and I find out that they have not touched their spouse in a year ----- I will have about as much sympathy for them as I would someone who sticks their head in an aligator's mouth and gets bit. 

There is such a thing as cause and effect, even if the "effect" is not socially acceptable.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Even if sarcastic, there is still a lot of truth to it.
> 
> The LD partner often just wants the HD partner to suck it up and keep on providing his/her services and accept that sexuality/affection/romance/intimacy are no longer a part of the package.


I know that that is true, but you know me, I just don't get it.

If it was part of the package then that is not any marriage I would ever be involved in...


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## Simple Dude (Dec 21, 2016)

I like this, Sounds like you could represent me in court.???


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Simple Dude said:


> I like this, Sounds like you could represent me in court.???


No that's what lawyers are for.

Marriage is a legal contract and if you are considering getting out if it (ie divorce) then you need a lawyer to go over all of your rights and responsibilities as well as to represent your best interests with the court.

Most states are no-fault meaning you do not have to prove malfeasance or wrong doing and the divorce is pretty granted if one of the party wants it. You don't have to play good guy vs bad guy. You just fill out the paperwork and pay the fees.

Where the lawyers come in is on how the assets are divided and how the care and support of the children will be determined.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Now I will also say this - if someone knowingly deprives their mate of a critical component to their happiness and well being and they continue to deny them them despite conscientious effort on the deprived person's part to due their marital duties and it has been the topic of rightful discussion and professional counseling etc and they still deny them -
> 
> - then they no longer have the right to expect a lasting marriage nor do they have the right to expect their partner's sexual fidelity.
> 
> ...


Just because our spouse is acting badly doesn't mean that we should.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Just because our spouse is acting badly doesn't mean that we should.


No it does not mean that one should.

But my point is if you knowingly reject your spouse, you cannot assume that their behavior will be the right way. 

If you knowingly deny their needs you can not expect them to remain with you.

You cannot expect them to remain celibate with you.

You cannot expect them to remain celibate until they leave you.

And you can not expect them to continue to live and cherish you and continue to provide for your needs.

It may be "wrong" of them to outsource their sexual needs and may be considered as poor form, but it is a very realistic risk that you take.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There are some common themes to many of these situations:
- The rejected partner is expected to socialize publicly and put a happy face on
- The rejecting partner has a sense of entitlement regarding how they are treated in the marriage

The main reason these situations persist is the unhappy person is afraid to do things that ‘might’ cause their partner to leave them. I don’t mean being punitive. I DO mean directly addressing the sense of entitlement and prioritizing themselves. 

Being a doormat is a turn off. 




oldshirt said:


> Now I will also say this - if someone knowingly deprives their mate of a critical component to their happiness and well being and they continue to deny them them despite conscientious effort on the deprived person's part to due their marital duties and it has been the topic of rightful discussion and professional counseling etc and they still deny them -
> 
> - then they no longer have the right to expect a lasting marriage nor do they have the right to expect their partner's sexual fidelity.
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> There are some common themes to many of these situations:
> - The rejected partner is expected to socialize publicly and put a happy face on
> - The rejecting partner has a sense of entitlement regarding how they are treated in the marriage
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think when you hear these cases of people literally going years without sex, it not even just fear - it is actual cowardice.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Simple Dude said:


> *I don't try and change the universe But, I so feel if your Marriage partner has change over the years to a position of lack of sexual desire, No affection, No Sex, And if you accept that that is the way things are with them. But you enjoy every other aspect of the relationship. And you yourself want to honor what they desire in their own life. Then they should allow you the same space in your life . If one doesn't want sex, Can they say you can't have Sex either? Or should they say thanks for allowing me my space for what I want in life and I want you to fine a sexual partner to enjoy what you want in life. And we meet in the middle. Everyone is Happy.*


*Most married people want a partner who, excepting physical or mental illness, whereby sex is a normal part of their marital relationship process! 

And not simply out of fear or disdain! *


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

When my marriage was headed towards sexless I brought it up to my wife. Her response was typical of a lot of wives in the same situation "all you care about is sex." I laughed and let her know that sex is easy to get, that I could easily make a few phone calls and have sex with a partner that wanted to have sex with ME! I wanted to have sex with my wife and it was normal and desired that a spouses would want to have sex with each other. I told her I would not live in a loveless marriage forever. Again her response was typical "you would leave me over sex." My response was I would not live in a loveless marriage, that sex wasn't the issue it was a symptom of the issue. I think this stunned her. She has worked on it and our sexlife has improved. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sbrown said:


> When my marriage was headed towards sexless I brought it up to my wife. Her response was typical of a lot of wives in the same situation "all you care about is sex." I laughed and let her know that sex is easy to get, that I could easily make a few phone calls and have sex with a partner that wanted to have sex with ME! I wanted to have sex with my wife and it was normal and desired that a spouses would want to have sex with each other. I told her I would not live in a loveless marriage forever. Again her response was typical "you would leave me over sex." My response was I would not live in a loveless marriage, that sex wasn't the issue it was a symptom of the issue. I think this stunned her. She has worked on it and our sexlife has improved.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


You were lucky... :grin2: that talk didn't work with my wife or the threat of divorce. I backed off and she came around eventually. Until a few months ago. Back to square one and separating...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sbrown said:


> I wanted to have sex with my wife and it was normal and desired that a spouses would want to have sex with each other. I told her I would not live in a loveless marriage forever. Again her response was typical "you would leave me over sex." My response was I would not live in a loveless marriage,


Mine said something similar to me in MC. 

I said that having a healthy love and sex life was important enough to me to go through a divorce and divide the marital assets and split the time with the kids 50/50. 

I then asked her if celibacy was important enough to her to do the same. 


The counselor sat there looking at her waiting for her answer. His silence in that moment was priceless.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Simple Dude said:


> Well, I get that this would seldom ever work out. I have even heard of Lower Drive spouse's not happy that the HD even Masturbate


Which is nuts. Hey, if we're talking about what if, and if relationships were always based on logic and fairness.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Just because our spouse is acting badly doesn't mean that we should.


True. And even if my spouse locked away all the food in the house and hid all the money from me, I should not steal. And it would still be a crime.

However, if I was hungry enough......I might consider it. And if someone tried to tell me that the locked up food and money had no influence on my choice....they'd be intentionally blind.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> True. And even if my spouse locked away all the food in the house and hid all the money from me, I should not steal. And it would still be a crime.
> 
> However, if I was hungry enough......I might consider it. And if someone tried to tell me that the locked up food and money had no influence on my choice....they'd be intentionally blind.


A more fitting analogy is if your spouse locked up all the food and all the money, you'd get a job somewhere else and buy whatever food you wanted.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> A more fitting analogy is if your spouse locked up all the food and all the money, you'd get a job somewhere else and buy whatever food you wanted.


That is what i would do in real life, after divorcing him and having him arrested for abuse lol

But the stealing aspect was part of the analogy because it is a crime and wrong to steal. However, most of us would understand that there were mitigating circumstances.

Just like when a BS blows the WS' head of with a shotgun. Murder is a crime, but they usually get a reduced charge because it is a crime of passion.

We mitigate for all sorts of things while at the time same holding people responsible for their choices.

We just don't do it with adultery in a crap marriage.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its difficult to find anything that is a good analogy for sex. People can live without it. Some people can be completely happy without sex, others need it for happiness. Some just need the physical act, others need the emotional closeness. Its also something that needs a partner - because to most people masturbation is not at all the same as sex, 


Many of us are in otherwise good marriages, but where our sex lives are very limited or non-existent. "divorce" is simple to say, but the consequences are huge, and many of us really do love our partners and don't want to hurt them. We are left with unfortunate choices:

Pretend to be happy, so that the partners we love can be happy.

Leave, making our partners miserable, but probably ourselves happy - though after huge emotional and financial costs - and in some cases terrible issues with children.

Cheat and have a sex life, while hiding it from our partners so everyone is happy....for a while, until the cheating is inevitably caught and everything goes down in flames. 


I wonder how many people do the last and get away with it for their entire lives?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Cheat and have a sex life, while hiding it from our partners so everyone is happy....for a while, until the cheating is inevitably caught and everything goes down in flames.
> 
> 
> I wonder how many people do the last and get away with it for their entire lives?


I'm sure there are people who do. Though I cannot imagine how seared their consciences must be to make that a lifestyle choice. I'd rather be miserable than seared.


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## Simple Dude (Dec 21, 2016)

At my age I have learned a few things in Marriage. One being that I do not reward my wife for bad behavior . Meaning She can not have all the things that go with a tender loving relationship if she displays lack of affection,Sex, Togetherness. If She wants to be roommates and choose's to be, That's her Sack. She has removed an important part to the relationship willingly. But in turn I remove all the things that I bring to the table. My main goal is to never get upset with this arrangement. Their is no battle, No conflicts, It is what it is. The lack of Sex starts yrs. ago when you start to settle for Duty Sex and as time goes on its all you get a quickie each and every time until it stops to. I guess the 8th wonder of the world to me is how does someone Love me so much and enjoy our life we have and remove something that pleasures me so much. I have said for yrs. Its not the Orgasm that's missing its the Love, Cuddling, Kissing, Holding, Bolding, all of these things are the vehicle to Orgasm.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Many of us are in otherwise good marriages, but where our sex lives are very limited or non-existent. "divorce" is simple to say, but the consequences are huge, and many of us really do love our partners and don't want to hurt them. We are left with unfortunate choices:
> 
> Pretend to be happy, so that the partners we love can be happy.
> 
> ...



So you stay in a sexless marriage so your spouse can be happy .......by not having sex with you.

That's messed up in so many ways. 

And why would she be miserable if you left since she doesn't want to be with you in the first place??

......oh that's right, you provide goods an services for her and she doesn't need to do anything in return.

Someone mentioned the word "parasite" earlier in the thread. That's a word that people should look up periodically. 

And why will kids with two loving, involved and supportive parents involved in their lives have terrible issues????


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not wanting to use a line often used by the "other side", but "sex isn't everything". It really isn't. Its important but it is one of many important things. Most couples (essentially all) spend most of their time together *not* having sex. They do lots of other things together. 

She does want to "be with me". She does love me. She just doesn't want sex, not with me, not with anyone. 

I certainly don't want her to have sex "for me". If I wanted someone to put up with sex with me in a transactional way, I'd just hire call girls every time I traveled. Young hot women who will perform a wide range of sex acts in return for compensation. 

It seems strange that people are in the "sex is everything", or "sex doesn't matter" camps. Why does it confuse people that sex is very important, but it is one of many important things.

Given the choice, I'd take a bad sex life in return for the rest of a relationship being good, rather than the reverse. Yes, I could leave and probably find someone who would make *me* happier, but my happiness is not the only goal.






oldshirt said:


> So you stay in a sexless marriage so your spouse can be happy .......by not having sex with you.
> 
> That's messed up in so many ways.
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Responses in bold below





uhtred said:


> Not wanting to use a line often used by the "other side", but "sex isn't everything".
> 
> *true, it isn't. But it is what separates our primary relationship apart from all others and makes our special someone special. Without it, you are just roommates and child care buddies. You can still put ads on Craiglist for roommates and babysitters. And if you golf or play tennis together, you can put a post on Facebook and another of your friends or relatives will play with you now and then too.*
> 
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

.... And also @uhtred since you brought up call girls..


You have stated many times in these threads that you won't leave your W do to the financial cost of D.

By remaining in a sexless marriage due to money, you realize that means you are paying for celibacy right?

I know that's a bit of a play on words but if you are financing a sexless marriage, that means you are buying celibacy and your funds are going towards involuntary celibacy and dissatisfaction.

I'm not saying paying prostitutes is ideal, but if you were paying hookers, at least your hard earned dollars would be going towards poon and not financing your own celibacy. 

I'm no financial wizard but Even a 1st year finance student could tell you if you cut off the funding to a sexless marriage, that would free up funds towards dating and sexual relationships and perhaps another marriage with someone who actually desires you.

......and if all else fails..... Call girls.

You're basically paying for your wife to emasculate you and deprive you of a love and sex life.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think you are confusing me with another poster. For me there is no financial issue if I divorce. We each are quite comfortable financially. I mention money because in some cases its a huge issue. 








oldshirt said:


> .... And also @uhtred since you brought up call girls..
> 
> 
> You have stated many times in these threads that you won't leave your W do to the financial cost of D.
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

@oldshirt
can't get multi-quote working.

It is correct that I do not have a sexual / romantic relationship and that's bad. My wife though is closer than a friend and at least for me non-sexual love is possible, even if its not nearly as good as the sexual type. There are few people that I'd be able to share the rest of my life with.

We have *some* form of sexuality, just not nearly what I would like.

She does not equate love and sex. So I am not her "cousin", I am someone she loves very much - just for her, that sort of love is not coupled with sexual desire. 

Well my wife's sexual desire has been mostly dormant for over 30 years. Maybe someday she will find someone that she is sexually attacted to, but I doubt it. I am actually her type as far as physical appearance and behavior goes - she does find other men attractive (generally those that look sort of like me - if younger), but she doesn't want to have sex with them. Or with anyone. 

I think its very unlikely that she is sexually attracted to anyone. Could be of course - there is never a way to be sure, but I really doubt it. I think the sex life she wants is the one that she has. 




You said "this kind of thinking comes from a "scarcity" and special snowflake mentalities and are rooted deeply in insecurity and self esteem issues."

My wife IS rare, and other than her very low libido, a very good match. She might not be what you want, but she is what I want (other than the sex issue). We've traveled all over the world together. Seen the last remnants of the Minoans at Karfi, erupting volcanoes, glaciers, rain forests, and high mountains. We've stayed it huts in the Yucatan and ultra-luxury hotels in major cities. We can talk about politics, history, and inflation - both economic and cosmological. We like the same movies and food. We've both worked [redacted] jobs for all of our careers, and both enjoy our work and are good at it. We have other common interests, but they are so unique that it isn't safe to mention and stay anonymous. 



You said "Deep down you feel you aren't good enough to find a woman that would desire you and you believe that your W is the only woman that will give you the time of day so you cling on to her even though you are unsatisfied with her and that if you leave her, you will live in a perpetual wasteland with no love or human contact at all and die prostrate in the dirt an empty shell of a man."


You do misunderstand me. I have no concerns about finding another woman. I've gotten uncomfortably close to affairs on several occasions before recognizing what was going on and avoiding things. . You see me complain here and I'm sure have an image in you mind of some sort of groveling whiny looser - that is how I come across here in a rare place where I can vent. To the real world I'm very different.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Simple dude
Then they should allow you the same space in your life . If one doesn't want sex, Can they say you can't have Sex ether . Or should they say thanks for allowing me my space for what I want in life and I want you to fine a sexual partner to enjoy what you want in life. And we meet in the middle. Everyone is Happy. *

That works if a sexual relationship is equal to a math problem.

Problems come into play because many reliable women do not want to be in a sexual relationship with a married man. Most women if married don't want to cheat on their respective H. 

How many people can spare the money to have a decent affair. Motels, dinners out, let alone the time to play being a lover. Then there are the different wants of each affair partner. FWB turns into someone wanting much more.

OK, maybe the affair happens at someone's house when the BS is at work or away for a few days. Then there are quickies in secluded places. Maybe meals are at Taco Bell or Arby's.

I read one guy's affair activities time and money line. Solo trips, meets the affair partner there, spends $500 a month playing the field.

Maybe i have too much of a money and time to "keep her" attitude to play "catch and release."


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> [MENTION=284017]
> 
> My wife IS rare, and other than her very low libido, a very good match. She might not be what you want, but she is what I want.


This is where you and the guys that remain in sexless marriages and guys like BluesPower and I differ. 

The way I see it, there are billions of women in the world that do not want to have sex with me. Women that do not want to have sex with me are like grains of sand on the beach; they are just something to flick out of the cracks between my toes. There is nothing rare or special about them at all. 

That does not make them bad in any way and many are close friends and beloved relatives and great people that do many great things in the world. 

But the ones that DO want to have sex with me are the rare and special gems that are treasured and loved. 

A woman that does not have a sexual interest in me may be admired and respected and even liked. But I could never love and share a home and family and a life with a woman that was not sexually responsive to me. 

My GFs and then my wife were my queens. We too have traveled and experienced different places and peoples throughout the land...…….and we had hot vacation and travel sex while there. 

You may be right that your wife my not be my cup of tea......if she is truly asexual or if she had no desire for me whatsoever, she would not be. 

But you may also be wrong. If she were hot for me and wanted to ride me like a big white horse, then she would be my cup of tea. 

I have lots of women that I could go do things with and go places with. But if there is no sexual chemistry/compatibility, then they are not special or rare at all. Completely replaceable. Just one more face in the crowd.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> This is where you and the guys that remain in sexless marriages and guys like BluesPower and I differ.
> 
> The way I see it, there are billions of women in the world that do not want to have sex with me. Women that do not want to have sex with me are like grains of sand on the beach; they are just something to flick out of the cracks between my toes. There is nothing rare or special about them at all.
> 
> ...


There are many of us who would never end a marriage because our partners didn't want sex. My husband and marriage are far too important to me to end it for that. I made promises and I intend to keep them in the future even if my husband cant or wont have sex.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> True. And even if my spouse locked away all the food in the house and hid all the money from me, I should not steal. And it would still be a crime.
> 
> However, if I was hungry enough......I might consider it. And if someone tried to tell me that the locked up food and money had no influence on my choice....they'd be intentionally blind.


You will die without food and water. 

There is no excuse for cheating ever.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> You will die without food and water.
> 
> There is no excuse for cheating ever.


Ones mental health is as important as ones physical health. But I concur there's no excuse for dishonesty. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Sbrown said:


> Ones mental health is as important as ones physical health. But I concur there's no excuse for dishonesty.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Many people dont have sex for all sorts of reasons, and they seem perfectly sane.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Sbrown said:
> 
> 
> > Ones mental health is as important as ones physical health. But I concur there's no excuse for dishonesty.
> ...


If they are single it makes sense. If they are married and withholding from their spouse, they are selfish.

AND violating biblical principle.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> There are many of us who would never end a marriage because our partners didn't want sex. My husband and marriage are far too important to me to end it for that. I made promises and I intend to keep them in the future even if my husband cant or wont have sex.


You are correct, there are a lot of people remaining with people who do not sexually desire them. 

You read about them all the time here and you can see how miserable and despite many of them are and you can feel their pain and anguish. And you can also see how many of them are becoming more and more resentful and bitter towards their spouses. 

You can see their marriages becoming toxic and dysfunctional. 

Now I get your point, there are a number of people like @uhtred that have mindfully weighed the pros and cons and have made a conscious choice that they can sacrifice the romantic/sexual aspect of their marriage for the other benefits that remaining provides. While that may not be my choice, I do accept and respect his choice. 

And I also believe you to be sincere in that you also would be able to sacrifice sexuality for the other benefits that your H and your M provide. 

However I assume that there are some other things that if they were not present and you were knowingly and intentionally being denied and deprived of those things despite the knowledge that they were critically important to you ---- you would likely leave the marriage. 

- or at least I would hope you would. 

I do truly hope you would leave a marriage where you were intentionally being deprived of some facet of the marriage that you deem of critical importance and that you need in order to have a happy and healthy existence. I would hope and pray that you would leave such a situation. 

And if you would not leave such a situation - I believe that is wrong. 

I know there are a number of people that believe there is never justification for divorce regardless of how bad someone suffers. I think that is wrong. I think that is a disservice to humanity and a plague upon the earth. 

I believe that creates a toxic environment that poisons everyone and everything involved in it. 

I am raising my kids that if anyone mistreats them or knowingly denies them the things they need to be in a happy and functional relationship just because they don't want to - then pack bags and start walking. 

I don't need much in this world. I don't need big houses in gaited communities with immaculate landscaping and fountains. I don't need big, fancy cars. I don't need Italian suits and designer clothes. I don't even need a spotless house or a gourmet dinner waiting for me when I get home. I don't need anyone waiting on me or serving me like a servant. 

What I do need to be in a marriage, is a woman that has warm and affectionate and romantic/sexual feelings for me and respects me as an independent and competent man. 

If someone does not have that, then a state of healthy and fulfilling marriage does not exist for me and I will not remain enslaved to that marriage, nor will I keep someone who does not have warm and romantic/sexual feelings enslaved to me just because we went to a church service and signed a piece of paper decades ago.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Many people dont have sex for all sorts of reasons, and they seem perfectly sane.


But how are their partners holding up?????

If both people have no interest in sex and both people are fine with it and are ok without a sex life, then that is simply consenting adults doing what they want and what they so choose.

But if one of them is suffering and is distressed over it, that is a whole other story. 

I think it is wrong and an abomination for someone to deprive their spouse of a basic need and make them remain in the marriage. 

Likewise I think it is equally wrong for someone to force themselves to remain in a situation that is toxic to them. As they become more resentful and bitter and disillusioned, the entire environment becomes more toxic and unhealthy for everyone in it - including the children. 

I am so sick of people in toxic and miserable environments enduring pain and suffering "for the children." 

Let's just blame children for staying with a person we can't stand and that mistreats us and makes us miserable. Yeah that is really doing kids a big favor.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are billions of women who don't want to have sex with me, and there are billions of women with whom I don't want to have sex. I expect that there are many millions of women who would want sex with me if they knew me and as part of a relationship, and I expect that there are many millions with whom I would enjoy sex under the same circumstances. I have no idea which many-millions number is higher, but it doesn't matter. 

Women who under the right circumstances have sex with me are not rare. Women who share my rather esoteric set of interests and characteristics are. 

Other things make people special.

I know that there are women who would be better sexual partners for me - but that is not the only important thing. (though it *is* important). 

I wish my wife and I were better matched sexually - life would be wonderful then, but we are not, so that isn't going to change. 

There is also the other side of the discussion. I love my wife, and also have sworn an oath to her for as long as I live. Those things matter to me, so even if *I* might be happier in other circumstances, I believe that she would not. 







oldshirt said:


> This is where you and the guys that remain in sexless marriages and guys like BluesPower and I differ.
> 
> The way I see it, there are billions of women in the world that do not want to have sex with me. Women that do not want to have sex with me are like grains of sand on the beach; they are just something to flick out of the cracks between my toes. There is nothing rare or special about them at all.
> 
> ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> There is also the other side of the discussion. I love my wife, and also have sworn an oath to her for as long as I live. Those things matter to me, so even if *I* might be happier in other circumstances, I believe that she would not.


Though you may believe that, as written it reads as if you don't know whether she would be happier.

That being the case instead of presuming what she thinks, why don't you actually ask her if she would okay or happier if you divorced?

You either know, or you don't know.

The thing about guessing at what your partner thinks is she may well be guessing the same about you. So out of a sense of friendship and fearing she will hurt you, she may well be sucking up a suboptimal marriage that she doesn't want to be in.

Do you avoid asking her because you are afraid to find out, that she might be perfectly happy not being married to you?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Its always so nice to read your posts RMY. You always come across as such a decent man.


He's not.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I actually agree that if someone doesn't want sex, they should be OK with their partner getting it elsewhere, but many people who don't want sex, also don't recognize its importance to others. Some are also afraid that if their partner gets sex somewhere else, they will leave - which is a valid fear since for many people sex / love / romance are all tightly tied together.


I disagree. I think they do recognize the importance sex has to others, which is why they they would be afraid that their partner would leave if they got sex elsewhere. 

I think they fully understand how important sex is to their partner, they simply don't love them anymore. That is the real issue. I don't care how great things are elsewhere in the relationship. If your partner doesn't have sex with you, they don't love you as a spouse. Plain and simple. They might love you as a friend, as a family member, as a provider, as a parent to your children, they do not love you as a spouse. Simple as that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You are correct, there are a lot of people remaining with people who do not sexually desire them.
> 
> You read about them all the time here and you can see how miserable and despite many of them are and you can feel their pain and anguish. And you can also see how many of them are becoming more and more resentful and bitter towards their spouses.
> 
> ...


I would only leave a marriage if myself and/or my children were in real danger or because of cheating. I meant it when I said for better and for worse. Did you?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> He's not.


He sounds like he is.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I would only leave a marriage if myself and/or my children were in real danger or because of cheating. I meant it when I said for better and for worse. Did you?


Some people see a refusal of sex despite all your efforts to show them how important it is, as emotional abuse. Would you stay in an abusive relationship?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> There are billions of women who don't want to have sex with me, and there are billions of women with whom I don't want to have sex. I expect that there are many millions of women who would want sex with me if they knew me and as part of a relationship, and I expect that there are many millions with whom I would enjoy sex under the same circumstances. I have no idea which many-millions number is higher, but it doesn't matter.
> 
> Women who under the right circumstances have sex with me are not rare. Women who share my rather esoteric set of interests and characteristics are.
> 
> ...


I love it when I hear about people who keep their vows and promises when things get hard. That's what people used to do. Also when a spouse puts their husband or wife first. It doesn't happen too much today sadly.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Some people see a refusal of sex despite all your efforts to show them how important it is, as emotional abuse. Would you stay in an abusive relationship?


If was real abuse yes. IE violence, rape, child abuse etc. 
I do see having sex as very important but I don't see it as abuse. Many people cant or wont have sex for all sorts of reasons. 
The word abuse is greatly overused these days.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> He sounds like he is.


He is, I was just giving him a hard time. Rocky seems like the type of dude I would buy quite a few rounds of beer for,as we discuss music, politics, relationships, camping and the outdoors... Seems like the kind if dude I would be good friends with.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> If was real abuse yes. IE violence, rape, child abuse etc. I don't see that as abuse. Many people cant or wont have sex for all sorts of reasons.
> The word abuse is greatly overused these days.


Sort of like the word Nazi. However, if you are dismissing your partners emotional needs, is that not a form of emotional abuse? If not abuse, is it at the very least a sign of a lack of love from your spouse? Say my wife is an acts of service type gal. What if I knew that, yet still refused to ever do any acts of service? Despite all of her efforts to get me to understand how she feels by my lack of effort. Even further, me knowing this emotional need of hers, yet I refuse to care or even attempt to meet this need. I relish in the idea that she is upset at me for not meeting this need, and will never attempt to because its a "stupid" need anyway and not valid in any way. When does it cross the line from just being a thick headed moron into now I'm on the cusp of emotional abuse because I know she has a need, and I would rather her suffer than even attempt to meet that need?


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## Confusedwife20 (Jul 19, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Not wanting to use a line often used by the "other side", but "sex isn't everything". It really isn't. Its important but it is one of many important things. Most couples (essentially all) spend most of their time together *not* having sex. They do lots of other things together.
> 
> She does want to "be with me". She does love me. She just doesn't want sex, not with me, not with anyone.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. And the other thing that I feel needs to be mentioned is that there is often a reason for a person to not want sex. Have you tried to find out what it is? Why do we never place blame on the other partner. Maybe you're just bad in bed.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> . I meant it when I said for better and for worse. Did you?


I will not subject myself or anyone else to a life of misery and deprivation when a viable means of preventing it is available.

I think this whole "better or worse" and "till death do us part" is responsible for more misery and more suffering and more abuse and despair than just about anything else.

As a species, We are no longer living hand to mouth trying to etch out a survival on the African Savanna. There is no reason someone should live decades in misery and despair when there is a means to correct it. 

Indoctrinating people into believing they have no control and no avenue for taking care of their own well being after signing a marriage license is wrong.

We are no longer slaves or endentured servants in this land and everyone has agency and free will over their own well being.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Confusedwife20 said:


> I agree with you. And the other thing that I feel needs to be mentioned is that there is often a reason for a person to not want sex. Have you tried to find out what it is? Why do we never place blame on the other partner. Maybe you're just bad in bed.


My argument against this is yes, many people have tried for literally years to fix a sexless marriage. Read dozens of books, tried dozens of different approaches, had hundreds of discussions with their spouse, left no stone unturned. Many do place blame on the partner who is suffering. Where have you been? Nearly every article is "here is why your spouse wont have sex with you" and you read them. You work to change those things. You discuss the topic with your partner. You put sometimes 2 or 3 years effort into this area. Along the way improving yourself as best as you can to meet all of your partner's needs. You become a better person, a better parent, a better version of yourself, and most importantly a better spouse.

You can do everything in your power. At some point it becomes clear however that your spouse doesn't return the favor. They may become a better person, parent, provider, but they DO NOT become a better spouse and certainly do not attempt at all to become a better lover. Which means they simply do not love you as a spouse. They love you as a parent, person, friend, family member, and provider. They do NOT love you as a spouse however. Your happiness as their spouse is inconsequential to them. Which means the marriage is over. 

The only thing that separates a great friend or family member from your spouse is sex and physical intimacy. That is IT. That is the line in the sand. To even attempt to write that off is absurd to me and shows a lack of understanding as to what it takes to make a marriage happy and really work as an actual marriage. Not just a couple of people living together and raising a family as friends, but as a husband and wife who journey through this life together as one.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I will not subject myself or anyone else to a life of misery and deprivation when a viable means of preventing it is available.
> 
> I think this whole "better or worse" and "till death do us part" is responsible for more misery and more suffering and more abuse and despair than just about anything else.
> 
> ...



Exactly! As far as the 'good book' will tell you, God helps those who help themselves. Living in misery is either his plan or it isn't right? For better or worse, so basically you are miserable. Yet to get out of that you have to help yourself, which might mean divorce. So what do you think God would really want?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She has made it very clear that she never wants me to leave her and sometimes expresses a little concern about it. 



Personal said:


> Though you may believe that, as written it reads as if you don't know whether she would be happier.
> 
> That being the case instead of presuming what she thinks, why don't you actually ask her if she would okay or happier if you divorced?
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

From lots of reading on this, its clear to me that different people feel / react very differently to sex. For some it is an integral part of love and romance, for others it is a separate thing. Of the latter category, for some it is a fun thing that they can enjoy outside of a relationship, but for others is is simply a distasteful activity that they do not ever want under any circumstances. 

For the final set, the long term misinformation spread by parent (mostly mothers of girls) has done great harm. The decades old idea that sex was something women "did for men", and were not expected to enjoy meant that the minority of women who did not enjoy sex, didn't realize that they were unusual that that most women *do* enjoy sex under the right circumstances. Those women sometimes ended up in completely mismatched marriages.






TheDudeLebowski said:


> I disagree. I think they do recognize the importance sex has to others, which is why they they would be afraid that their partner would leave if they got sex elsewhere.
> 
> I think they fully understand how important sex is to their partner, they simply don't love them anymore. That is the real issue. I don't care how great things are elsewhere in the relationship. If your partner doesn't have sex with you, they don't love you as a spouse. Plain and simple. They might love you as a friend, as a family member, as a provider, as a parent to your children, they do not love you as a spouse. Simple as that.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Abuse covers a very broad range of situations. Physical abuse is simple to identify. Emotional abuse is more complicated but can be very real. That said, not all unhappy situations are actually abusive. 




Diana7 said:


> If was real abuse yes. IE violence, rape, child abuse etc.
> I do see having sex as very important but I don't see it as abuse. Many people cant or wont have sex for all sorts of reasons.
> The word abuse is greatly overused these days.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I have indeed tried. 

The "am I bad in bed" question is of course a classic one. I don't think so for a few reasons: First is that my long ago other partners gave every impression of thinking that I was a good lover. I've certainly spent time learning techniques. I'm happy to do anything she wants in bed (and often ask). I've also tried "taking charge" and just doing things, but she doesn't want that either. She appears to frequently have an O, and I don't think she is good enough at acting to have faked for so long - but of course that is possible. There is nothing physically off-putting about me. Still it could be true - but I don't think so. 

She just seems to have almost no sexual desire. She is clearly bored by sex scenes on TV, even with characters that she says she finds attractive. She is physically attracted to me in a non-sexual way - likes to touch / kiss etc. She just has always shown very little interest in sex. When she does want sex, its in non-romantic settings - just something she does once in a while that feels almost like a chore. We are often in very romantic settings but they never seem to encourage any sexual interest on her part. 

I've recently been visiting the asexuality.org site and many of the people posting there seem to have attitudes toward sex that match my wife's. 




Confusedwife20 said:


> I agree with you. And the other thing that I feel needs to be mentioned is that there is often a reason for a person to not want sex. Have you tried to find out what it is? Why do we never place blame on the other partner. Maybe you're just bad in bed.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> Though you may believe that, as written it reads as if you don't know whether she would be happier.
> 
> That being the case instead of presuming what she thinks, why don't you actually ask her if she would okay or happier if you divorced?
> 
> ...


While what you say makes sense, in this case I believe @uhtred and would bet the farm that she is perfectly content and would not want the boat rocked in any way.

I am sure she is perfectly happy. She has a live-in girlfriend, a a coparent, a contributing roommate, and someone who changes her oil, unclogs the toilet and kills spiders....... And she doesn't have to do anything. 

If she wanted a divorce she would have gotten one a long time ago. If she meets a guy that she likes, she still can. In the mean time she is perfectly happy getting all the benefits of a dutiful and devoted spouse and not having a sex life.

Life is good for her. It is Uhtred that is suffering. 

So in that sense, yes, she will be upset and probably cry if he divorces her. 

Uhtred doesn't want to upset her so he lives a life of quiet desperation.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Confusedwife20 said:


> I agree with you. And the other thing that I feel needs to be mentioned is that there is often a reason for a person to not want sex. Have you tried to find out what it is? Why do we never place blame on the other partner. Maybe you're just bad in bed.


Yeah......I think this is what withholding spouses like to tell themselves. I think 95% of the time, they just don't want to be bothered with sex and want their partner to suck it up and leave them alone. I mean, let's reverse it: Why would I be motivated to cook every night and have endless "intimate conversation" with someone who can't even be bothered to touch me.

Unless you're saying it's okay to neglect your partner's needs as long as they aren't perfect.

I have never encountered a single person who defends sexual deprivation that wasn't - at the core - just selfish.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

If your spouse is asking you for intimacy, and you're refusing to provide it, you at least have an obligation to explain why. Sometimes this requires a level of maturity and introspection, uncovering some ugly truths. If the reason is "you're bad in bed" then say so. If it's "I'm no longer attracted to you" then make that known. 

I think in most cases, the LL spouse simply wants the status quo to continue and doesn't have the decency to either meet their spouse's needs, or even offer an honest explanation about why they cannot. Either the latter or the former make for a very bad marriage. If your marriage isn't even the kind of friendship where two people exchange honesty, then there's nothing left. 

So yeah, I'll blame the LL spouse until they can fess up.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Tatsuhiko said:


> If your spouse is asking you for intimacy, and you're refusing to provide it, you at least have an obligation to explain why. Sometimes this requires a level of maturity and introspection, uncovering some ugly truths. If the reason is "you're bad in bed" then say so. If it's "I'm no longer attracted to you" then make that known.
> 
> I think in most cases, the LL spouse simply wants the status quo to continue and doesn't have the decency to either meet their spouse's needs, or even offer an honest explanation about why they cannot. Either the latter or the former make for a very bad marriage. If your marriage isn't even the kind of friendship where two people exchange honesty, then there's nothing left.
> 
> So yeah, I'll blame the LL spouse until they can fess up.


I agree. 

I think often times the denying partner just uses the other partner's yearning as a leverage to keep them in line and performing their servitude for them. 

The person who has the least desire and wants the other the least is the one with the most power and influence. 

If someone right out and says they don't want to have sex with their partner because their partner is fat or stretchmarked or has a little penis that only lasts 30 seconds or that they no longer love and respect them, then they lose leverage. 

If they are honest about lack of desire/attraction, one of two things will happen. Either the denied partner will lose weight or otherwise correct the problem in which case they lose a good chunk of their power and are on equal ground. 

The other possibility is the upon realizing the reality their partner does not dig and likely won't ever dig them - they throw in the towel and either look for an AP or just leave in case they lose their dancing monkey and no longer have their servant to do their bidding. 


As long as the denying partner can make the other think that there is a chance for a sex life in the future as long as they can crack the secret code, they can string them along and have them jumping through hoops for years.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

uhtred said:


> She has made it very clear that she never wants me to leave her and sometimes expresses a little concern about it.


But not concerned enough to have sex with you? 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

As I pointed out to my wife if I left her because of lack of sex I know she'd screw the next guys brains out until she had the hook set just as she did with me. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Which is why I think that usually she has very low libido and dislikes sex. 




Sbrown said:


> But not concerned enough to have sex with you?
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Uhtred doesn't want to upset her so he lives a life of quiet desperation.


Well he could tell her that he will always be discreet and honour that. All while only playing away, without being excessive or ostentatios about it.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Tatsuhiko said:


> So yeah, I'll blame the LL spouse until they can fess up.


What does LL mean?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Uhtred doesn't want to upset her so he lives a life of quiet desperation.


Yet uhtred's wife is is perfectly fine with upsetting him by having him live his life of quiet desperation.

Really though, the fact that uhtred has sucked this up for as long as he has, is evidence that his sex drive is rather low.

From that perspective her denial of him may be a perfectly reasonable thing for her to do, since his interest in shared sex is evidently more academic than practical. Otherwise if it really mattered to him, he would have shared a lot more sex with his wife or have shared it with others by now.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Personal said:


> Yet uhtred's wife is is perfectly fine with upsetting him by having him live his life of quiet desperation.
> 
> Really though, the fact that uhtred has sucked this up for as long as he has, is evidence that his sex drive is rather low.
> 
> From that perspective her denial of him may be a perfectly reasonable thing for her to do, since his interest in shared sex is evidently more academic than practical. Otherwise if it really mattered to him, he would have shared a lot more sex with his wife or have shared it with others by now.


I'm not sure it's an issue of sex drive but more of values and temperament. 

He may be hornier than a 3-balled billy goat, but if his values place a higher premium on not upsetting her and his temperament is one of conflict avoidance and fear of what would happen in the event of her anger or of getting a divorce etc etc ….. then he sucks it up and lives with it despite his sex drive. 

I think men who tolerate sexless marriage are governed by fear and conflict avoidance, more than their sex drives and their desire for intimacy. Their fear outweighs their pain. Their fear of upsetting anyone or being judged outweighs their desire for sex and intimacy. 

Their fear of possibly being alone outweighs their yearning for intimacy which is quite ironic and contradictory because their fear is what keeps them trapped in their state of deprivation. 

I'm not necessarily talking about Uhtred and Mrs Uhtred specifically but more of the sexless couples in general - but I do not think for one second that these spouses that deny their mate think for one second that their mate is not interested in sex or have a high drive. They know fully well how desperate they are for intimacy. 

But they know that they are too timid and too fearful and too insecure to do anything about it but whine and moan and *****. They know they will not get it elsewhere. And they know that they will not leave. 

And that knowledge gives them the power and the confidence to keep right on doing what they are doing. They know they themselves will have no negative consequences from it and they know they can get them to do tricks and jump through hoops for them. 

Then the real tragedy is since these guys are being governed by fear and insecurity and they know they won't actually do anything about it, they lose respect for them as men. Once they are whipped, they no longer see them as virile or sexually desirable men and they lose respect. 

Women cannot desire men they do not respect and so they lose even more attraction and desire for them. It becomes a viscious cycle. 

For many that lack of respect and lack of desire and the knowledge that their spouse will take no definitive action gives them the confidence and green light to seek sexuality elsewhere - with more virile and stronger men. 

Then we get these guys whining that their supposedly "asexual" wives that haven't touched them for years are in fact engaging in hot, porn sex with other dudes. 

The men can't believe it because in their minds, these women have no interest in or desire for sex so how can she be getting down with other men??

Then when they find out, they do the "Pick Me! Dance" and beg and plead for their wives to stay and to not screw other dudes. this makes them look even more weak and pathetic and the viscious cycle continues to swirl downward.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I think men who tolerate sexless marriage are governed by fear and conflict avoidance, more than their sex drives and their desire for intimacy. Their fear outweighs their pain. Their fear of upsetting anyone or being judged outweighs their desire for sex and intimacy.


I think that sums it up.

THE END


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> I think that sums it up.
> 
> THE END


Nah... you'll find that there are men who actually really love their wives and are prepared to put up with a lot. Multiply x 1000 if you have kids... I was one of them. 

To me, sexless marriages are very easy to explain: the other partner has lost the attraction, and maybe respect. In rare cases, it's just resentment and that can be fixed. You see instances when that happens...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> To me, sexless marriages are very easy to explain: the other partner has lost the attraction, and maybe respect. *In rare cases, it's just resentment and that can be fixed. You see instances when that happens...*


For illustrative purposes only (not a real story):

When my husband's grandmother passed away, he asked if he could store a few of her things (family keepsakes) in my sewing room for a week. You know until he sorted out what to do with everything... that was five years ago and I have not been able to use my sewing room since and my husband gets really really upset when I ask him to donate or throw out these things...










...we also stopped having sex about five years ago because we don't get along anymore!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> ...we also stopped having sex about five years ago because we don't get along anymore!


But we do get along... :laugh:


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Nah... you'll find that there are men who actually really love their wives and are prepared to put up with a lot. Multiply x 1000 if you have kids... I was one of them.
> 
> To me, sexless marriages are very easy to explain: the other partner has lost the attraction, and maybe respect. In rare cases, it's just resentment and that can be fixed. You see instances when that happens...


Loving your wife as your wife is a great thing unless she loves you like a brother. Then you're just a doormat. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The comical element of the post below is the tone. 

Did your partner ask if it was ok to stop having sex, while keeping everything else the same?

Uh no, they did not.

It isn’t complicated to say: I’m not wired for celibacy and X frequency is WORSE than celibacy.

A partner who loves what you DO for them, will leave when you say this. Game over. 

A partner who actually loves YOU, will either step up, or get out the way.





Simple Dude said:


> I don't try and change the universe But . I so feel if your Marriage partner has change over the years to a position of lack of sexual desire, No affection, No Sex, And if you accept that that is the way things are with them. But you enjoy every other aspect of the relationship. And you yourself want to honor what they desire in their own life. Then they should allow you the same space in your life . If one doesn't want sex, Can they say you can't have Sex ether . Or should they say thanks for allowing me my space for what I want in life and I want you to fine a sexual partner to enjoy what you want in life. And we meet in the middle. Everyone is Happy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kind of funny how spouses don’t lose respect for partners who respect themselves.




In Absentia said:


> Nah... you'll find that there are men who actually really love their wives and are prepared to put up with a lot. Multiply x 1000 if you have kids... I was one of them.
> 
> To me, sexless marriages are very easy to explain: the other partner has lost the attraction, and maybe respect. In rare cases, it's just resentment and that can be fixed. You see instances when that happens...


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> The comical element of the post below is the tone.
> 
> Did your partner ask if it was ok to stop having sex, while keeping everything else the same?
> 
> ...


An alternative would be to let her know that "everything is great", and since you don't wish to participate in that part of our life anymore, I'll be seeking that from prostitutes, so I don't get emotionally attached.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Nah... you'll find that there are men who actually really love their wives and are prepared to put up with a lot. Multiply x 1000 if you have kids... I was one of them.
> 
> To me, sexless marriages are very easy to explain: the other partner has lost the attraction, and maybe respect. In rare cases, it's just resentment and that can be fixed. You see instances when that happens...


Re resentment and lost respect...
Very rarely, observed many times itrw and many threads on TAM.
It's toleration and acceptance at best that's achieved, if there are some improvements at least.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well that absolutely is the next step. 

Step 1 can be executed in a light hearted tone. I’m not wired for celibacy, and I’m not gonna let a little thing like sex abbreviate our marriage. 

Then when you run this play: I’m outsourcing to professionals - to avoid bunny boilers and emo confusion
you’ve set the table nicely

If you get the hostile toned: do whatever you want
You can use willful incomprehension and say in a warm sincere tone: thank you being so understanding and supportive 

If you get the angry melt down - you just ask: Is this sort of like the seminary - it’s either celibacy or excommunication?




ReturntoZero said:


> An alternative would be to let her know that "everything is great", and since you don't wish to participate in that part of our life anymore, I'll be seeking that from prostitutes, so I don't get emotionally attached.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

While I do not have any moral or ethical opposition to outsourcing to professional sex providers assuming they are consenting adults, I would caution against mentioning that or letting it ever be known. 

Prostitution is still illegal in 49 states and it will be used against you. 

Women react very negatively in regards to prostitution and whatever cooperation and ammicable good will that may have been tere before will be thrown out the window.

Whatever degree of respect that may have been prior will be thrown out the window as well and turned into pure scorn and retribution. She would go on a scorched earth campaign and none of your friends and relatives would ever view you the same again.

Most women will find the thought of a legitimate and healthy relationship with another woman much more threatening and the rest if society will not judge and prosecute the pursuit of legit relationship as they would the services of a prostitute.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think some people misunderstand the dynamic in these mis-matched marriages. I know in my case:

1) I'm not concerned about being alone. A good female fried of mine is getting divorced. We have been close as friends for many years, and she has made it quite clear that if we were not married, she would want more - in fact *does* want more (and in a sense so do I), but we have agreed not to go in that direction. She is a nice person in many ways and we get along well, but she is not my wife. 

2). I could threaten to leave and most likely get lots of sex. Its just that I don't want sex under threat - I have sufficient price that I want to be *desired*. I expect at lot more than being "tolerated".

3). I do very much love my wife and I do not want to hurt her. She clearly loves me - she just for whatever reason has a very low libido - always has, always will. 

4). Sex is important to me, but it is not more important than everything else put together. 

I'm frustrated with the situation I'm in because it seems like such a "simple" change to make my life so much better, but I also understand that in reality it isn't actually "simple".


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I think some people misunderstand the dynamic in these mis-matched marriages. I know in my case:
> 
> 1) I'm not concerned about being alone. A good female fried of mine is getting divorced. We have been close as friends for many years, and she has made it quite clear that if we were not married, she would want more - in fact *does* want more (and in a sense so do I), but we have agreed not to go in that direction. She is a nice person in many ways and we get along well, but she is not my wife.
> 
> ...



You do make rational responses and I do understand where you are coming from and while I do not think you are "wrong" on any of these point, I do think there is more to it than what you are touching on. 

#1. This shows you do have options. You wife is not the only special snowflake in the world. You do seem to have a case of Oneitis. The best way to treat Oneitis is to open your eyes and your mind and realize that life is not limited to one shot at love. 

2. This is where I think you aren't seeing the full picture and are a looking at it a little too one-dimensionally. You point about not wanting her to have sex with you out of duress is valid. But it really goes deeper than that. If she were to actually fear losing you and being a divorced middle age woman, yes in the short term that is not going to stimulate her desire.....she actually would probably be even more turned off in the short term. But what that realization and concern would likely do in the longer term is bring her to the negotiation table where she would have to actually open up and address what is causing her lack of desire and take steps to correct it. That is the long game and if successful whatever is stifling her desire may be corrected and in time her desire and sexual response does become sincere. That won't happen over night and she may very well be resentful initially, but in time if the root causes are addressed and corrected, it can lead to a new beginning. This is how it went with my W when we were in MC and the counselor finally got through to her that I had one foot out the door and if she wanted to remain married and the family under one roof she would have to open up and address her issues rather than just insist that I suck up and live with it. Make no mistake, she was p1SSed initially. But when I was given the tools to address what was turning her off and making her resentful, in time I was able to turn things around. But you can't get to that point without destabilizing her belief that you won't trade her in for someone else. 


3. This ties in with #2 as your one-two punch that is keeping you prostrated and ineffective. You are afraid to hurt or upset her...….and she knows it. She knows are afraid to rock the boat and she knows you won't leave or do anything that will hurt or upset her so she has complete confidence that she can deny you forever and you won't do anything about it. 


One thing that all very successful have and one thing that all guys that have had sex with lots and lots of women have in common is they are not afraid to upset other people and they aren't afraid to fulfil their own needs even if it makes someone else cry. It's the classic 'Bad Boy' vs the "Nice Guy." 


I don't want to get political but let's use Trump as an example. Our enemies are going to watch their step during the Trump presidency because they know he doesn't care whether they are upset and they know he is crazy enough to drop the bomb on them. 

Your wife knows you'll never drop the bomb on her so she feels completely safe to deny your needs. 

If she knew that you'd be packing and walking out the door if you weren't getting your needs met, she would be stepping up to the plate and addressing the issues keeping her from doing such. 


Those are the pieces of the puzzle I think you aren't quite clicking. 

#4 is as I said in an earlier post, your values and temperments are such that you value peace and quiet more than your own sexual needs so you don't rock the boat and don't do anything that will upset anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. You keep the peace and keep the comfort at the expense of your own needs.


The biker in the bar that scores on the counter of the women's bathroom with a gal he just met, does not care that he upsets the bar owner about a man being in the lady's room and he does not care that he shocked the other gals that happened to come walking in to the bathroom and seeing them in the middle of the downstroke. He only cares about getting the poon. 

Now I'm not saying to buy a Harley and start banging random chick in bars. There is a happy medium. But what my point is is that if you put other people's comfort ahead of your own needs, your own needs will go chronically frustrated because male sexuality makes people uncomfortable.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Personal said:


> Well he could tell her that he will always be discreet and honour that. All while only playing away, without being excessive or ostentatios about it.


Some people wont cheat. 
I admire them for that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You do make rational responses and I do understand where you are coming from and while I do not think you are "wrong" on any of these point, I do think there is more to it than what you are touching on.
> 
> #1. This shows you do have options. You wife is not the only special snowflake in the world. You do seem to have a case of Oneitis. The best way to treat Oneitis is to open your eyes and your mind and realize that life is not limited to one shot at love.
> 
> ...


Why is it that so many here just don't get that he really loves his wife, he doesn't want another woman, and that its wrong to cheat? Maybe he doesn't want to upset other people so he can have sex with lots of other women who he thinks nothing of. For many that is empty and pointless.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Why is it that so many here just don't get that he really loves his wife, he doesn't want another woman, and that its wrong to cheat? Maybe he doesn't want to upset other people so he can have sex with lots of other women who he thinks nothing of. For many that is empty and pointless.


While he may love her as a wife, she clearly doesn't return that love. He doesn't have to cheat. Not wanting to upset others may be in part why she has so little respect for him. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Some people wont cheat.
> I admire them for that.


Do you also admire people who lack strength of character? People with a lack of self esteem? People who are so afraid of confrontation they end up torturing themselves as a result? 

This may come across as harsh, and I'm not painting all people who you describe with the same brush, however, more often then not, it seems what I have described above is common.

Why is it that people go into marriages, yet seem to forget the vows that involve 'to love and to cherish'. Guess what, that does also involve physical intimacy.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Luminous said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> > Some people wont cheat.
> ...


 I have absolutely no respect for people who deprive their partner of sex. I was married to someone like that, and leaving was the best thing I ever did. However, I have even less than 0 respect for people whose morals depend on how they're treated. Cheating is wrong. Cheating is wrong. Even if my partner is a crapy selfish cold partner, cheating is wrong with. I understand the point you were trying to make, but it meiring someone who is not a cheater is not the same as condoning selfish with holding of sex. I don't want my character to be dependent on how other people treat me. I want my character to be strong enough to stand on its own even in the face of selfishness. Your mileage may vary.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Some people wont cheat.
> I admire them for that.


Aw shucks, I knew you admired me. :wink2:

That said at no point have I suggested that uhtred should cheat on his wife.

All I have suggested is that he try adultery, while ensuring his wife informed. With the additional caveat that he ought to be publicly discreet, in order to prevent embarrassment for her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Luminous said:


> Do you also admire people who lack strength of character? People with a lack of self esteem? People who are so afraid of confrontation they end up torturing themselves as a result?
> 
> This may come across as harsh, and I'm not painting all people who you describe with the same brush, however, more often then not, it seems what I have described above is common.
> 
> Why is it that people go into marriages, yet seem to forget the vows that involve 'to love and to cherish'. Guess what, that does also involve physical intimacy.


People who refuse to abandon their husband or wife and children because they may not have the perfect marriage have great character. People who keep their marriage vows even though their spouse may not be meeting all their needs have great strength of character.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Cheating is wrong whether your partner is depriving you of sex or whatever the case. Lying and deceiving is a dishonor to everyone including one self. HOWEVER, I dont consider telling your wife/husband something like, 'since you are unwilling to be intimate with me and I have no desire to live as an INCEL, that I will be outsourcing the sexual aspect of our marriage to others'. Give them a 30 day window to either take back that role or consider if they would rather divorce.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She doesn't return *sex*, she does return love.




Sbrown said:


> While he may love her as a wife, she clearly doesn't return that love. He doesn't have to cheat. Not wanting to upset others may be in part why she has so little respect for him.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

1) yes I have options -as far as sex. Finding someone else like my wife would be very difficult, and leaving her would hurt *her*, its not all about me. 

2). I think she really has little interest in sex - and while she would do what she needed to do to keep me, she would resent it. We talked about this once and she did say that she would resent feeling like she had to have sex more often than she wanted.

3) Yes, I don't want to hurt her, so yes she gets to deny me sex as long as she wants. Sad reality - I don't want to hurt the person I love. 

I don't want "lots of women", but have no doubt that I could have them if that was my goal. I want sex, but not enough to act like an ******* to get it. Success is a very complex thing - and my sex life is really the one place where I'm not happy with my situation. Getting sex. but losing other things is likely not a good trade. 


4). Honestly I don't want to have sex with a random attractive woman in a bar restroom. Sex is generally fun and all, but fcking some random woman just doesn't have a lot of appeal for me. I want something rather more involved and interesting. 

No problem with people who do want that - to each their own, but its not my goal in life. 






oldshirt said:


> You do make rational responses and I do understand where you are coming from and while I do not think you are "wrong" on any of these point, I do think there is more to it than what you are touching on.
> 
> #1. This shows you do have options. You wife is not the only special snowflake in the world. You do seem to have a case of Oneitis. The best way to treat Oneitis is to open your eyes and your mind and realize that life is not limited to one shot at love.
> 
> ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> She doesn't return *sex*, she does return love.


If she honestly loved you as much as you claim, she wouldn't want to cage you as she does.

I wouldn't be that cruel to a friend, let alone someone I love.

While at the same time you have shared a reciprocal expression of desire with another woman. While saying on TAM that you would have ended your marriage far earlier, if only you knew what your marriage was going to be like.

Considering all of the above I'm not convinced that either of you, love each other that much if at all.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

@uhtred - so what you are saying is your wife is selfish and not interested on keeping her husband satisfied? You have her on some tall pedestal. How often do you even get it?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

From what I can tell, there are people who have little or not sexual desire. Think of it as "straight", "gay", or "neither". 

The problem is that when she was growing up and when we were married (ages ago), people were told that women didn't enjoy sex. In general that was a lie - most women *do* enjoy sex, but some (and some men) do not. Unfortunately back then a woman who didn't enjoy sex didn't have any way to know that she was unusual, no reason to think that she needed a compatible partner in marriage. 

Remember she shouldn't be "giving me" sex. If she was a typical woman she would be *enjoying* sex "with me". 

You will find that there are men like this as well - several threads here. Men who just don't want to have sex, despite having attractive, enthusiastic partners. 




UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> @uhtred - so what you are saying is your wife is selfish and not interested on keeping her husband satisfied? You have her on some tall pedestal. How often do you even get it?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> From what I can tell, there are people who have little or not sexual desire. Think of it as "straight", "gay", or "neither".
> 
> The problem is that when she was growing up and when we were married (ages ago), people were told that women didn't enjoy sex. In general that was a lie - most women *do* enjoy sex, but some (and some men) do not. Unfortunately back then a woman who didn't enjoy sex didn't have any way to know that she was unusual, no reason to think that she needed a compatible partner in marriage.
> 
> ...


Was there a time when sex was more frequent? Or was it always rare.


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## Simple Dude (Dec 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> From what I can tell, there are people who have little or not sexual desire. Think of it as "straight", "gay", or "neither".
> 
> The problem is that when she was growing up and when we were married (ages ago), people were told that women didn't enjoy sex. In general that was a lie - most women *do* enjoy sex, but some (and some men) do not. Unfortunately back then a woman who didn't enjoy sex didn't have any way to know that she was unusual, no reason to think that she needed a compatible partner in marriage.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Always rare. I was too young to recognize that this was unusual. No bait / switch here - just my not recognizing the situation until much later. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Was there a time when sex was more frequent? Or was it always rare.


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## Simple Dude (Dec 21, 2016)

Please excuse post#108


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

uhtred said:


> She doesn't return *sex*, she does return love.


She's not returning love of a wife. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Sbrown said:


> She's not returning love of a wife.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


Bingo. There are different types of love.

https://fromerostoagape.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/eros-romantic-love-and-agape-unconditional-love/

A strong marriage requires multiple types of love, of which eros is one.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

And here is the core of the problem. 

To me, and many other people, sex, romance and love are all tied together. Its difficult to imagine loving someone (in a romantic way) and not being sexually attracted to them. 

To my wife and some other people, sex is completely separate from love. Love is all the other things a couple does for each other, and does together. Sex is just some activity that they sometimes do together, but which is not really related to love. 

These two groups of people are best off not getting into relationships with each other - because when they do, the incompatibility causes all sorts of issues. 




Sbrown said:


> She's not returning love of a wife.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> People who refuse to abandon their husband or wife and children because they may not have the perfect marriage have great character. People who keep their marriage vows even though their spouse may not be meeting all their needs have great strength of character.


No.

Let's not confuse being irritated at your spouse for squeezing the toothpaste from the wrong end or not getting socks picked up off the floor in time with dealing with an issue that affects someone's well being and the state of health of a home.

Yes, not packing up and leaving do to minor irritations is honorable.

Allowing oneself to be mistreated and denied basic human needs to one is experiencing distress and becoming embittered and creating a resentful and toxic environment is *NOT GOOD CHARACTER * and it is not honorable in any way shape or form.

It is being part of the problem and it is being a contributing member of the dysfunction and toxic environment.


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## Simple Dude (Dec 21, 2016)

I always wonder how it got to this?? How did we all go from going out on a date with the OP and enjoying their company, Friendship, Making Love, Cuddling,Kissing, To I use to like that but now I don't need that anymore. Well that's a shame you don't, But I do. They take you from wild sex for hours on a Saturday night to not tonight Dear. After yrs. of Marriage I have seen it all. Somewhere towards the end of your sex life with the OP is something called Duty Sex where you just lay some pipe and the OP has no emotions, The step passed that is call a Courtesy Lay at this point you decide if you still want it or not. You go into a refusal mood and then that's all that's left to in enjoy.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Its difficult to find anything that is a good analogy for sex. People can live without it. Some people can be completely happy without sex, others need it for happiness. Some just need the physical act, others need the emotional closeness. Its also something that needs a partner - because to most people masturbation is not at all the same as sex,
> 
> Many of us are in otherwise good marriages, but where our sex lives are very limited or non-existent. "divorce" is simple to say, but the consequences are huge, and many of us really do love our partners and don't want to hurt them. We are left with unfortunate choices:
> 
> ...


Here is the problem with this post IMHO. 

I know people are different and I get all that. But for me, in the past and now, if a women did not love me and want to have sex, then she is gone. 

That is not love, like I have said in other thread, it is roommates. I will not be I a relationship with someone who is not into having sex, and frankly a lot of it.

I don't for a second understand why anyone would stay is a sexless marriage...


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Unless you have a normal sex life with your spouse, it's very likely one or both of you will eventually 'check out'. There a lot of hormonal pair bonding that occurs before, during and after sex that if neglected, love will die on the vines so to speak. It's important to keep each other 'topped off' if you want a marriage to thrive. Otherwise, you just become best friends or tolerable roommates. 

@uhtred - unless your wife has some medical issue or on some meds that kill her libido than I'm not buying it. It sounds like another BS excuse of someone too selfish to take care of their spouse. I'm guessing she may even like it once its going on. Regardless, you can go on living that way as you are afraid she will resent you if you force the issue, but the fact is you resent her for rejecting you. How is that fair?

Whatever the case, I tend to agree with Blues Power in most cases. If you aren't getting any from your old lady, chances are she just isn't attractive or in love with you anymore. Roomateitus has set in and she's enjoying the free room and board.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Also I do want to assure @uhtred and @Diana7 and anyone else that may have misunderstood. 

I am not saying that Uhtred (or anyone else) should cheat or that he should go out and screw lots of woman.

I was using that as a conceptual point that being overly concerned with other people's comfort will often be a detriment to one's own well being.

It's all about balance and finding the right happy medium. 

In this instance, Uhtred's concern with his W's comfort is coming at the cost of his own well being. 

That is NOT an honorable pursuit or an indicator of high character (I'm not saying he is a bad guy). His doormatism is leading to distress and dysfunction in the marriage. That is not a positive thing and not something that should be rejoiced or encouraged.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Those cases are really sad and unless there is a medical issue usually a sign that someone has fallen out of love (or sometimes the other partner is behaving badly in some way). 

Other cases (like mine) intimacy was never there but for whatever reason (usually lack of recognition) people got married anyway. 




Simple Dude said:


> I always wonder how it got to this?? How did we all go from going out on a date with the OP and enjoying their company, Friendship, Making Love, Cuddling,Kissing, To I use to like that but now I don't need that anymore. Well that's a shame you don't, But I do. They take you from wild sex for hours on a Saturday night to not tonight Dear. After yrs. of Marriage I have seen it all. Somewhere towards the end of your sex life with the OP is something called Duty Sex where you just lay some pipe and the OP has no emotions, The step passed that is call a Courtesy Lay at this point you decide if you still want it or not. You go into a refusal mood and then that's all that's left to in enjoy.


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