# How 'scorched earth' is too scorched?



## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

*95% of the way to "over"*

So, I woke up, showered, shaved my beard, got ready to go to a (non-important) meeting and checked my email this morning.

My wife had this thing about how she loved me and how she was going to move out and take the dog etc., how she wanted me to get a second job to help pay for her place, etc., how we could "talk" tonight when she got home from yoga. Anyway, I emailed the person I was meeting with to cancel.

*This* was definitely testing my boundaries. Friday night we had agreed that when we had interactions with each other should be less frequent but more intentional and positive. Fair enough, right? I tried to tell her, "look, I've felt bad about the way I've behaved before and been working hard to improve my own neglectful and abusive and manipulative behaviors and am going to need some patience from you", but that was apparently too "needy", so come Monday morning... Anyway, Friday she neglected to tell me that she was going to be gone all day Sunday at some workshop and dinner (she isn't cheating, I've looked into that (I crossed a line I had set for myself years ago and I went through her facebook, emails & phone and found nothing she's too sloppy to keep it hidden if she was, for sure.) while I was at home in a messy house supposed to do... what, exactly? Usually I'd have cleaned and walked the dog and made myself dinner but then I realized I was at home with an empty fridge in a dirty house and with a needy, half-crazed 80-lbs guard dog, and that my wife was out and about learning the finer points of doing yoga headstands or and going out for dinner. So I went out to get some fried chicken.

Back to today, after browsing carliving.com for a while and looking for RV parks, I sent my wife an email. I said: we can separate, but i may be the one moving out, it is going to take me time to find a second job, that I am going to move into the basement and use the back door meantime, that I am taking my paychecks off direct deposit and that effective tomorrow I am no longer going to take care of the dog in any way at all, that none of this is negotiable and that i am not going to answer calls or emails.

That all came pretty naturally. I'm already working 20 hours a week and taking classes, and going to get some more part-time work if I can work it around my class schedule, which I don't think is making a concession to her. I could use the money.

The problem is that what also was going to come naturally was going to be me selling our dining room set, me selling our couch and outdoor furniture, the lawnmower, and trying to figure out a way to strip the paint off the walls and sell that, too. You know, the stuff I paid on my credit card that mysteriously never got paid off (I know, I know, that was before I realized that the other end of the bargain wasn't being held up).

I'm thinking about getting a pay-as-you go smartphone, too, and opening my own bank acct. But right now w/out withdrawing $$$ from our shared savings I don't have enough cash on hand to stay over the fee minimum on a checking account.

Then I was sitting here thinking, "you know, I haven't had sex in about ten days, maybe I should go looking for someone who can help me with that", and I'm also thinking about maybe putting caltrops in the driveway, and setting the house on fire when I head to my glorified cubicle of an office tonight. Okay, the last two are jokes, but the first isn't.

I mean, ****ing hell, where do I draw the line? It's one thing to expect me to take care of the dog during the week because I live closer to home. That's 'reasonable', even if I don't like doing it, it shows my respect, right?. And it was right of my wife to ask that I change some of my behaviors--we're not talking about minor stuff here, I had and still have some problems that I should have taken responsibility for a long time ago.

But then I get this nonsense about "you get another job to pay for my apartment and oh yeah you have to take care of the dog while I work on my awesome dream life". NOT COOL.

Anyway, I got an email from her about half an hour later: "You don't have to move into the basement, i can move into the guest room instead. I will take care of the dog, but it might hurt his feelings if you ignore him" (wrong, dogs love it when you ignore them, it 'shows leadership').

Anyway, I'm still going to move my crap down there and take the paychecks off direct deposit and not talk to her or be around.

But I really have no idea when or how to mitigate these consequences. I have no idea how to transition into something a little softer and friendlier. She asked for separation--okay, i'll do the best I can to maintain that, which includes not talking or emailing, right? And I am more than happy to finally not be agonizing over a dog that won't pee on schedule, then start tap-dancing at three in the morning to get let out. But how do I go about softening things? Why am I thinking about going out and screwing strangers? My trust has been broken ("for better or for worse" not "only when I feel like it") and I can feel my misogyny creeping back into place. I'm such a mean ******* and have been trying hard not to be that I can't really figure out when I've gone too far.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

Separation sounds like a good idea for you two. You both seem to be frustrated and agitated about day to day stuff that you may not be able to work on any other important issues like communicating or anything else.

Work hard at making it work and realize that you two are probably both too hurt or angry to make any progress right now.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

At this point I have no problem with separation in theory, but between money etc. it would be difficult. The thing that gets me especially is that I'll move into a $200/month room or even a damn RV park or sleep in the tiny-ass old car and still be able to pay all my bills etc. on a part-time income. That, and her telling me how it was going to play.

I guess I am angry, but in this instance, I'm trying to make sure that anger only goes into protecting my boundaries, not spouting off some abusive **** or 'getting even'.

Before I could get things tidied up downstairs she came home from work early crying. I've seen her cry maybe eight times in six years, and that's including during her dad's funeral.

"I'm sorry I hurt you" (note to narcissists out there: please don't start an apology with your own self-centeredness visible, there is a difference between "i am responsible for x and regret it" and "i'm so sorry, really, my awesomeness was so bright it hurt your eyes")
"You didn't hurt me"
"I love you and was doing this so you didn't have to stay away all the time, I don't want you to have to sleep in the basement" (see above re: self-centered 'apology')
"I don't care. I can stay away as long as I need to. I am happy to and I get more things done away from home anyway. I am still going into the basement"
"Why are you punishing me?"
"I'm not punishing you"
"why are you doing this"
"you don't get to make decisions like this without involving me and not face consequences"
"Are we still going to the counselor's office tomorrow"
"I am"
"i need to feel better"
"what do you need?"
"understanding and kindness"

I said the only thing I was willing to negotiate was watching the dog during the week, and that it would have to be an equal give and take. She made no acknowledgement of actually having heard this. Anyway I put the dog's leash on and got his remote zapper (he's trained for basic off-leash obedience, and he's also an ******* to strangers (yes, we socialized him extensively, he has show aggression, territoriality and dominance since he was weeks old)) away from her.

"Don't you think we need space? can't I ask for that?"
"You have the right to ask for space"
"Don't you think it's best for us?"
"You can ask me. You do not tell me."

Me and the dog left. We were gone for an hour. I brought him home and my wife was in the guest room listening to music or exercising or crying or emailing her ex-boyfriend or whatever with the door shut. I put water in the dog's bowl and left.

I didn't mention what I wanted or needed. I didn't mention me, at all, except to say that she had violated my boundaries (I don't even think I said "boundaries"). I didn't say "unfair", "need" "want" etc. I didn't extend any comfort when she said she needed understanding and kindness (I also didn't say "wow, we have so much in common!" or "and if you tack 'respect' onto that then we want exactly the same thing!"), even though I really wanted to.

But I'm also a freaking sociopath who can stay stone-hearted for months if not forever (thanks dad!).


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## Powerbane (Nov 8, 2010)

Love Languages Test

Check out Gary Chapmans 5 Love Languages. 

Sounds like hers is Words of Affirmation and yours is a combo of Quality Time and Acts of Service. 

You know it only takes one to start the changes and the other one to follow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Powerbane said:


> Love Languages Test
> 
> Check out Gary Chapmans 5 Love Languages.
> 
> ...


Actually, I'm Touch and Words of Affirmation, and I rank Acts of Service last. I'm pretty sure we have very similar styles in this, though she might be more Quality Time than Affirmation. 

I don't do "acts of service" out of love. I do them b/c I do them. It's how I was raised: if you see a job, do it, or else. Not healthy but I keep it to myself. Which might be part of the problem: I will clean up other people's messes b/c there is a mess (not in the needy way, I mean like an actual physical mess or something that needs actual action. Like if i see the cat litter box, i put "clean cat litter" on my to-do list, not ask, "is it my turn to clean the cat litter?"), not b/c I want approval (if anything, it's to avoid disapproval, but that's neither here nor there).

It is more our mutual dependence issues IMO. Both of us are very stubborn and independent. But I know one problem I have is in protecting my boundaries--my wife is a person who will keep pushing on boundaries. But it's mostly in areas where I don't have strong boundaries--of course I'd be willing to look after the dog WHEN SHE IS AT WORK, but this ended up turning into her thinking she could tell me how to treat the little monster all the time and then resenting me for not doing what she wanted. Which led to more boundary pushing, like having me take care of him on weekends. "Okay, go to the bluegrass festival w/ your friends, I need to stay home and research this weekend anyway"--which has turned into me, taking care of the dog, all the time, while she goes out and masters levitation or whatever.

I was actually going to say something to her about the dog, that I was not going to walk him anymore, because she had promised she would start walking him every morning. She just sorta beat me to the punch and up'd the ante, which I obliged.

That's just one example. It's kind of a big one, though.

The other problem is that I really don't tend to her needs, which include having fun... I'm just not as fun as I should be, and have been overbearing to her about it before. I can be moody, too. She actually just needs more stimulation, to "do stuff" and I really didn't see this as a need no matter how much she said it in one way or another. (I mean, I wasn't allowed to do anything fun as a kid so why should anyone, right? ) She also has a much higher need to "go with the flow" than I do, and I can be outspoken enough that she bristles in social situations sometimes. That's both of our problems, actually. me being an ******* (I don't know when to stop) and her feeling a need for acceptance.

But I've been trying to work on this crap, and for my own sake, too.

It's a ****ing mess. There's a lot of ****, too, that's been beyond our control. My stress scale (forget the author's name) score was over 350 a few weeks ago. I def. mentioned that to my wife (in passing) and it didn't stick.

So what the problem is IMO is that I'm taking action but there's so many actions to be taken I feel like I really want her involved in it, too. I'll probably need to set all that aside. I definitely haven't tried "talking" to her about much anything in a while--because she only seems to be even more disrespectful when I try.

I can understand that. It's painful to wake up to the hurt your own self-centeredness has caused, and it's even more painful to realize that you're that way because of things that happened a long time ago, out of your control. It hurts. I can see why someone would defend against that. I just wish that I hadn't been such an ******* before, and I wish I had had more respect for myself and my needs before.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

My advise is the same as before. You wrote so much about day to day thing. Even if you both love eachother, you are both too hurt to do anything positive or see what the other person is doing is positive.

You talked about the dog a lot. It can be annoying to have to do chores your wife should be doing, but there has to be a way past this.

You both probably have a backlog of issues that are unresolved (dog, chores, money, boundries, sex, and whatever else I missed from your post). I think that with all of that its probably hard for you two to talk and not step over one of those quickly. With all of those issues, I doubt you two can spend time together and not argue about something.

If you aren't already doing MC and want to save your marriage, please start. It is hard work.

From what you said and hinted at in your post, you are very stressed. I is VERY hard to talk to someone and feel heard or understood when you are under that much stress. Even if you go to her and start a discussion on the dog or whatever else, you probably won't be able to come to any consensus with you (and probably your wife) that stressed.

If separation isn't possible, then moving into the basement might work. 

If you haven't done MC and want to, tell your wife you love her, want to make it work, and don't know how.

Best of luck.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

anx said:


> You both probably have a backlog of issues that are unresolved (dog, chores, money, boundries, sex, and whatever else I missed from your post). I think that with all of that its probably hard for you two to talk and not step over one of those quickly. With all of those issues, I doubt you two can spend time together and not argue about something.
> 
> If you aren't already doing MC and want to save your marriage, please start. It is hard work.


We're in counseling.

It's mostly the dog, money, time and what to do for fun. I've felt controlled though my wife isn't controlling, which is my narcissism. I can't tell what it is she wants from me--first I was "too angry," now "we have nothing in common". I wish I felt more connected to my wife, though, the more I accept responsibility for my flaws and mistakes the more I want there to be "us" stuff, not just "her" stuff and "me" going off to work on **** I don't really care about. And worst is I can see things to be done that would be worth trying. I'm pretty damn sad with myself over having missed that for so long, possibly forever now. Can't really say that now though b/c she really stepped on my toes. I don't know if she'd hear me if I said it, anyway--I don't know she ever has.

I'm wondering if a lot of it is that I'm just more a Words person. I feel the need to be "heard" and to "have a say" and to be "asked". I want to ask my wife to take the love languages test but again, i'm not comfortable having brought up a wall of consequences and the next day being like "hey so like check out this quiz on the internet".

FWIW sex isn't an issue. I mean it is, but not b/c it's not good or often enough. From snooping in my wife's emails (I suck), I learned that she really wants to have more sex, just can't get motivated. Somebody posted here something like "if my wife tells me she's too tired she better go to right to sleep"--this is actually what happens with us, as in, she goes to bed at about 9pm.

My stress levels have been elevated for so damn long I'm not sure what it'd look like not to have them high, and that's really independent of the marriage issues. Pretty sure that life has caused my balls to shrink (literally) and hairline to recede too fast.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

I really hope you work this out with your wife, and I REALLY think you can. Commit 1000% to MC, say your sorry often for your past mistakes, and make this work

I posted my story in the reconciliation section.

Similar to your stress issues, I have dealt with anxiety all my life, and went to 2 years of PC for it. I used to have 2 hour panic attacks.

My wife and I went to counseling for 10 months and were separated for 2. The best part about separation was that we didn't have to deal with day to day issues. The dates and sex were great. 

I also talked FAR more than my wife, and really could talk all day long. I would drown out my wife, and I talk a lot less currently.

Finally, I spent about 5 months and and currently doing about 75% or more of the chores. My wife is very stressed about her job, and I know that she appreciates it a lot. She tells me and its her love language.

If you love your wife (i can tell that you do), make it work. Even if it means taking care of the dog 100% of the time.

Best of luck


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

Also, I read the other posts about your situation. 

I have a lot in common with you. I wish you the best. Making my marriage work was much harder than anything I ever did in grad school.

I really hope you figure out how to make your marriage work. It sounds like you both love eachother, but neither of you knows how to make it work.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

anx said:


> If you love your wife (i can tell that you do), make it work. Even if it means taking care of the dog 100% of the time.
> 
> Best of luck



Thanks, this counts for something.

I had felt so good about things, and thought we were going to be in the office and work out some reasonable plan about keeping our distance, etc., in a calm way, but that wasn't what happened. Things went from bad to awful.

I guess this is what "believe nothing your spouse says and less than half of what you see" means.

I'm not really happy with the way the MC handled things, I kind of want to email the counselor to ask to speak to her again or to request individual meetings with both myself and my wife. Is it okay to do that? I realize I just had a meeting but damnit, I really don't like how things have been going.

[rant]
I feel like the designated bad guy. Again. This can't be the case twice in a row. It just can't. I thought I didn't want to get a divorce, but maybe that's what I need to do to keep from developing serious jaw-clenching syndrome.

We spent a half hour with the marriage counselor making us 'talk' through things: I had to listen to what my wife would say, say what my wife said and then have my wife confirm I understood. I do *NOT* remember the MC making my wife do this at all. It was: "What did she say?" "She said this" "Did you mean that?" "Yes". Then we spent the next half-hour working out the finer details of our separation.

The problem IS NOT that I can't listen to my wife and don't respect my wishes. IT'S THAT NEITHER ONE OF US HAS LISTENED TO OR RESPECTED THE OTHER AT ALL!

Part of the mistake I keep making, I think, is thinking that the MC office is 'safe'. I really get the impression it isn't. Like it's just not cool for me to say how I feel. It hasn't been, at all. Why isn't the MC making my wife ask me if she understood properly what I said? I got a little upset and angry after a while, but was able to stay *kind of* calm. Probably not much. I felt really damn belittled. I still feel that way. I'm trying to be adult about this but goddamn, it's like, why the **** am I in the counselor's office if it's just going to be another venue for my wife to assault me? When I'm emotional I'm "angry" and when I'm calm I'm "a monster"? errrgh... I'm not the designated bad guy, I keep trying to voice important stuff in the office, and it is constantly, constantly dismissed and ignored. Turning back to my wife again: "It's her decision".

What has been bothering me is that the MC keeps handing control to my wife. Seriously, it is really bothering me. "It's ___'s decision", she keeps saying.

The only thing I think I can get--the only thing--is that the MC wants me to work on staying calm and self-soothed. While my wife keeps trying to bully me? Jesus, this is like Dr. Phil by way of Guantanamo. That, and maybe the counselor thinks that I'm more open to change so maybe I should try to 'listen'. Um, okay, but does my wife ever get to have an encounter with reality? B/c I'm not sure anymore this is going to work if it just ends up being me having to second-guess my every word while my wife wears earplugs.

Anyway, the thing my wife said was "you really crossed a line with this email... I don't feel safe... You're a monster to do that to an innocent animal". Do what? Make my wife take some interest in taking care of an 'innocent' animal that's equally her responsibility?

Here was the **** that really, really, really ****ing got to me. She said: "*I feel threatened at home*". SHE SAID THIS TO A GODDAMN MARRIAGE COUNSELOR. From where I stand, that is **no more than one step away from claiming I beat her** in front of the a court. Because she only needs to say it again.

What's next? A damn restraining order? Because she feels unsafe that I'm in my tiny little library office when she's at home? My blood pressure, it's way too ****ing high right now.

**** that damn dog. I am actually going into separation over a dog. Really. For all I know there's a warrant out for me for domestic abuse right now.

This upset me, visibly.

Well, not over a dog. Over the fact that my wife demands that I take full responsibility over it, to the point of not being able to leave the damn house when my wife 'needs' to go somewhere without giving any notice.

I'm willing to assume a lot of responsibilities to help my wife achieve something she wants. But I'm not willing to assume so many I end up taking care of a goddamn needy guard dog that is going to maul neighborhood children and spend the next six hours dropping toys in my lap (I taught him to *stop* doing this... and my wife let him start doing it again despite my protestations. She just did it while I wasn't looking) while I ignore him because I'm trying to get work done. Then when my wife sees him dropping toys in my lap at 9pm when she gets home she tells me I'm "mean", now I'm a "monster", because I don't listen to my dog when he says "HEY LET'S STOP EVERYTHING AND DO WHAT I WANT!!!" Seriously? :head explodes:

"Monster"? Damnit, I don't think I've thrown a punch at anyone in six or seven years but it's hardly too get back into what I've been missing.

It makes me want to tear my hair out. My wife wants to leave me if I don't defend my boundaries, and wants to leave me if I do. In fact, she's less happy when I do stick up for myself. I have enough insight to realize that she needs to back the **** off and stop expecting me to make her happy. She can expect me not to make her miserable, but if she is going to make me the sole ensurer of her happiness... this isn't a marriage, it's extended emotional extortion.

Anyway, I agreed that it was reasonable for me to take care of the dog on weekdays, but not on weekends at all, and that if something came up requiring me to take on more work that would be time that would be tracked and accounted for.

I'm in a pretty dark place right now, but five years from now when without warning she's telling some pushover who gives her everything she wants that she "really just needs space" one morning, I wonder if she'll realize what her ****ing problem is.

Is this even worth it? This sort of self-awareness comes at such a high ****ing cost. Why am I not out getting wasted and chasing skirt right now? It's what I'd be doing if a woman I wasn't married to pulled this ****.

"Hey I found this great apartment to move into with the dog without you! Wanna help me pay for it? Do you mind if I stay with this guy from my office tonight?" Etc.

But I can't ****ing talk about this even in counseling? Jesus! I can't even be like, "hey guys, I'm really excited about having finally taken responsibility for all the things I did wrong in the past! I am ready to be a good partner who will respect both his and his wife's boundaries!"

If my wife asks for a divorce--i.e., gets papers, it is over. I will NOT reconcile with her if she decides to push things that far. [/rant]

Well, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Anyway I think that's another load off my back, though I kind of wish I handled this better.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Is it just me or does this seem  simple. All this :bsflag: over a dog. It is a DOG--a pet. Yes, pets can be beloved but they are hardly worth all this. Find another owner for the dog and chalk up in your head that you and your wife are not yet ready for pets or children!!

I'm not saying you aren't fine, responsible owners, either. Don't get me wrong. I have no doubt that the dog is not neglected nor does it seem he/she is in any way abused or even treated thoughtlessly. But to go through all of this...all this agony, torture and power-struggle over a pet is absurd. 

Do the responsible thing. Find the dog another, caring owner--teach the new owner the things you've trained the dog--and under NO CIRCUMSTANCES have another pet or children with this woman. Can you imagine the power struggle, control and manipulation that would occur if she had CHILDREN to hold over your head?  

Once you have found the dog another owner, turn your focus onto working on yourself. You have an angry and frustrated tone in your writing, but I have to be honest--it sounds reasonable to me. It is reasonable to be angry with someone when they take advantage of you. It is reasonable to be angry that someone is trying to control you and is getting away with it.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Is it just me or does this seem  simple. All this :bsflag: over a dog. It is a DOG--a pet. Yes, pets can be beloved but they are hardly worth all this.


The thing is, I know that deep down inside, if it was "it's me or the dog", well, my wife's first choice always would have been the dog. Always. Like since before she met me. At this point IDK why I bothered so long... should have let her move out with the dog about a year ago.

She wore me down on the freaking dog, too. Like talked about how great her old dog was. All the time. All day. "dog this dog that". At one point I thought, "hey, I have more free time, how hard can this be?"

My mistake. Now I've got Cujo at home. Cujo with obedience training and a shock collar, but still. Respects me, my wife and that's it. Can't be outside unsupervised, can't play with kids, etc., etc.

When i wrote up my "things that make me crazy" list, the dog was #2, after "money".

I keep pretending that no child in the world needs this much attention, this many boundaries and this much exercise, but that sounds like a bad judgment call on my part. I also keep pretending that there's no way my wife would breastfeed something then leave it at home with its "monster" father while she goes and does amazing stuff without us all weekend b/c I wanted to do some stuff at home for a couple hours one day...

I know I'm wrong.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

> It is reasonable to be angry with someone when they take advantage of you. It is reasonable to be angry that someone is trying to control you and is getting away with it.


Yeah, seriously, I know I wouldn't have put up with anything like this if there wasn't a third party depending on me. And it sounds pretty close to being that I'm going to be lied about b/c I reclaimed some control by ignoring the real possibility that the animal would suffer. Really not okay. Actually really extra not okay. But I was outwitted... "Monster." Great. Hey, at least my wife feels "secure" from assailants with me around, right?


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

MC is very hard. Its emotionally draining. People are stressed and hurt. Changing yourself while still seeing the issues in the other person is hard.



> I had to listen to what my wife would say, say what my wife said and then have my wife confirm I understood.


Doing this is something that has been VERY important for us. My wife also didn't have to do it until a few sessions later. We ran out of time or something. DO THIS AS MUCH AS YOU CAN.



> IT'S THAT NEITHER ONE OF US HAS LISTENED TO OR RESPECTED THE OTHER AT ALL!


same with me and my wife, although I don't think it got as bad as you guys. Specifically, I get really anxious when we argue and start talking over my wife. We both start not listening to eachother.

Unfortunately MC isn't fair towards you right now. It should get better. It sounds like you guys haven't been there long. It will probably take six months to a year to get everything worked out, but it should get better as it goes.

Its probably not fair about the dog either, but at this point it almost doesn't matter. Communication has broken down, and both of you are too hurt and stressed to fix this. You need a way to show her love and that you are working on the relationship that doesn't involve talking. Neither of you is able to make the other person feel listened to or respected right now. You probably can't do anything right when it come to this dog. There will probably always be an issue or another unless you do 100% what your wife wants. Anything you try to do differently will probably be a fight (its not fair, sorry).

IMO, keeping track of who does what with the dog on what days is a F*CKING TERRIBLE IDEA. You will fight about it. 100% guaranteed.

It took my wife a while to see what her part in all of it was. It come together for her after 8-10 months. It was only after I fixed all my issues for several months.

I think both you and your wife are in a really bad spot. You are very stressed and she is unable to be anything but mad and unreasonable towards you right now.


Tell her you don't think you handeled it right. Me and my wife communicated by e-mail a few times and it went well it gave us both time to think about what we wanted to say.

I really wish you the best and I hope it works out. You need to reduce your stress somehow so you can get through this. I can tell from you writing how crazy this is for you right now. 

Best of luck bro.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

> There will probably always be an issue or another unless you do 100% what your wife wants. Anything you try to do differently will probably be a fight (its not fair, sorry).
> 
> IMO, keeping track of who does what with the dog on what days is a F*CKING TERRIBLE IDEA. You will fight about it. 100% guaranteed.


This is scaring me, but I hope I'm misunderstanding. Being in a disadvantageous role in MC, I think I can handle. But I will *not* be able to stay married to a woman who insists on getting everything her way, especially not at my expense. If I do 100% what my wife wants, 100% of my free time will be doing her stuff, spending money her way, living in a house she chooses, in a place she chooses, not even being allowed to speak freely in my own house, without me having any chance to pursue anything I want if she's not into it--that's not a marriage, that's a life of self-denial followed by suicide. Or at the least a very long string of affairs and an OD death in my late 40s. I know what a smothered childhood is like, and I can't live like that as an adult. She has to find someone else for that.

I'm not really sure I have the fortitude to go a year or six months or whatever without having some of my needs addressed. I realize right now I lack perspective.


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## DjF (Nov 24, 2010)

less_disgruntled said:


> This is scaring me, but I hope I'm misunderstanding. Being in a disadvantageous role in MC, I think I can handle. But I will *not* be able to stay married to a woman who insists on getting everything her way, especially not at my expense. If I do 100% what my wife wants, 100% of my free time will be doing her stuff, spending money her way, living in a house she chooses, in a place she chooses, not even being allowed to speak freely in my own house, without me having any chance to pursue anything I want if she's not into it--that's not a marriage, that's a life of self-denial followed by suicide. Or at the least a very long string of affairs and an OD death in my late 40s. I know what a smothered childhood is like, and I can't live like that as an adult. She has to find someone else for that.
> 
> I'm not really sure I have the fortitude to go a year or six months or whatever without having some of my needs addressed. I realize right now I lack perspective.


damn...do I really want my wife back....???


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

bwaaahhh now my wife is emailing me even though i remember there being explicit instructions for NO communication? And my wife is telling me to be careful about something in the basement? When we're not supposed to be in each other's space?

It's like a painful character study one minute, a romantic comedy the next, complete with stalking behavior... "Go away love me"? I already have cats at home (just realized I am the sole litterbox caretaker, too, but the cats have never threatened the lives of old people or children) (like the dog the cats also come when called) when I want to be followed from room to room by someone who's upset with me for not loving it enough after it uses me as a scratching post.

Is maybe female-on-male domestic violence followed by a loving reconcilliation and reappraisal of faults next? 


on edit, my MC battle plan is now (seriously):

Go through this 'it's like recovery from addiction' crap the other 23 hours of the day
Go to counseling
Let my wife yell at me for half an hour while staying calm despite feeling attacked
Let the counselor help my wife yell at me while staying calm despite feeling humiliated
Spend a few minutes with a semi-prepared statement calmly
Let my wife keep yelling at me
Go to office and smoke crack (j/k. maybe)
Go home, sleep in cold room on futon


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## DjF (Nov 24, 2010)

I firmly believe that love is a game of control, or maybe true love is a game of giving up control...and if both give up control, then neither have it but the shared one do...

bad love contols us like pawns on a chess board...


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

My wife came down into the basement this AM while I was pretending to be asleep and put a comforter on me. Didn't say anything or open my eyes or move, etc. Glad she did it b/c it's cold down there and I'm sleeping homeless style w/ gloves and three layers on.

I guess that means there's hope.

But I thought I was "threatening"? I know if i had said anything we would have fought. Prob. b/c I would have been hostile: "you aren't supposed to be here."

Damn, I wish I didn't have so many other responsibilities in the meantime. Going to grad school was probably the worst decision I ever made. Note to anyone reading this: don't go to grad school if you're older than 23 or ever had a F/T job.

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posting this from the other thread.





anx said:


> Keep working on it!!! There is a good chance things will get a lot better with MC. Where you are at, its hard to not see the worst in your wife all the time. It will be very rocky and hard in the mean time. Talk about this stuff in MC, but IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF TIME to unravel it all.
> 
> Stay strong and best of luck.



thanks again. I'm trying to take ownership of as much of this as I can but it's a lot. I've been spending weeks and weeks going through all this damn self-honest self-appraisal (not just about the marriage) and it's been taxing and draining.

I realized the stuff I was *most* upset about, the stuff that made my blood boil, was also the stupidest. Like the restaurant--that was 100% my fault for not speaking up, and besides that, we were in the middle of damn blizzard, it's not okay for me to get resentful b/c my wife had more fun than I did b/c our options were limited.

It's like if I get angry about it, it's something that I can talk myself through and find solutions we can work on.

It's the little stuff that's most worrisome right now. Like her complaining about a dirty bathroom and me just crossing that place off the list b/c of that even though I liked it. It never feels like I'm 'giving in' ATM b/c really. "Oh, so you don't like this place b/c the bathroom is dirty? I didn't mind it but I can live w/out it". I'm not seeing that me doing that is going to lead to her blocking in a "her" thing when I thought I was thinking "it's not a 'me' thing so why worry about it?" Selfish on my part, too.

It's just strange to me to have to stand up for stuff that isn't that important to me, I guess.

I realize now some of this crap is depression on my part, too, and that my stress levels are paralyzingly high without much in the way of outlet/relaxation.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

> My wife came down into the basement this AM while I was pretending to be asleep and put a comforter on me. Didn't say anything or open my eyes or move, etc. Glad she did it b/c it's cold down there and I'm sleeping homeless style w/ gloves and three layers on.
> 
> I guess that means there's hope.


This is really good!!!!
Do the same back. Show her you love her by something you do. It means as much to her as it does for you.




> Going to grad school was probably the worst decision I ever made. Note to anyone reading this: don't go to grad school if you're older than 23 or ever had a F/T job.


Mostly agree.



> I realized the stuff I was *most* upset about, the stuff that made my blood boil, was also the stupidest.


Use the time by yourself to figure this stuff out. People get so caught up in who is right and wrong and aren't thinking strait when everyone is stressed and hurt.



> It's the little stuff that's most worrisome right now.


Do not argue about the little stuff. Arguing about the bathroom will make her feel like any progress you have made is fake and temporary. Make the small things into non-issues so you can start to work on both feeling listened to and respected.

Lastly, be EXTREMELY careful with every single word you say. I would sometimes send my wife very brief e-mails, or when we would talk, be very brief about an issues and then make sure she feels listened to and then say anything more I had to say and asked her to listen.

If either of you don't feel listened to, its alright to say so. I have told my wife a few times "I need to feel listened to about this".


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## DjF (Nov 24, 2010)

I'm reading a book titled "Fight Less, Love More"...it's about having simple conversations that keep issues from becoming arguements...it's really about open communication and common sense...but it is pretty good...it reminded me to do the simple things like stopping whatever your doing when your partner comes home...saying good bye, hello with a hug and a kiss...saying thank you...so on...doing the small things everyday so the big things don't kick your butt!


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

I'm feeling pretty damn bitter here.

I haven't spoken to, or emailed my wife, on anything but the barest of bare essentials: have the animals been fed. Etc. I really want to go home right now and relax on my couch. But my wife is there.

I was kinda upset and jealous last night when I had to go into a medicine cabinet (she was asleep) and saw that she had take off her engagement ring and wedding band. She had taken off her family ring, too, and set them all on the microwave so I just assume she was doing, whatever, washing dishes or something.

I woke up this morning, heard my wife shuffling around and leaving to take the dog somewhere, and I waited for her to go and then I went to gym.

Got home from the gym and was exhausted, misplaced my wallet and keys, thought I lost my phone, got my keys, found the phone. Saw that her rings were all still off and got really ****ing angry. It felt like a passive-aggressive thing (why'd she leave off her family ring? her dad gave that to her), I took off my band and set it down w/ hers, then put mine back on when I realized it was what she would have wanted if she done that on purpose.

I mostly pulled myself together but am on an extremely short fuse right now. Over stupid crap. I'm telling myself I don't care WTF she does but on the inside I do. But then IDK why I even bother. B/c I feel like we just started butting heads and never stopped. I know I put up a wall between us--but she did too. I see what I did. I know I can't 'make' her see what she did or the role she played, but I guess I can dream, right?

What really gets to me--what really, really gets to me--is how she pushed for me to go into therapy over **** I *really* did need to go into therapy for. Then I finally break down and see WTF is wrong with me and, it's like suddenly she thinks I've gone soft, or something.

That's the real irony here. I honest to god really feel like my wife pushing for me to get into therapy was really nothing more than a power play on her part. She agreed to MC and has been going for the past three months though--but it's been three months of this and just getting worse and worse and worse.

IDK, maybe this is her dysfunctional way of getting that 'accountability' out of me for the stuff I've neglected.

Why am I bothering? I've felt like **** for two weeks now. Too much stress to eat or sleep. It's taken a couple days to concentrate on anything at all. I mean I have felt truly good, once I gave myself permission to take responsibility for my own abusive and negligent behaviors, it was like getting a huge burden off my chest I never knew was there, but there's too much fog over that right now and I only get it in patches. And I'm tired of sleeping on a futon next to the litter box.

Why did I agree to that? Why didn't I agree to the guest bedroom? Why did I have to show how tough I was on this, too? I thought if I just cleaned up it wouldn't be all cat piss when i sleep and cat piss when I wake up.

Worst ****ing part is if my wife holds out a damn olive branch, "why don't you sleep in the guest room" I know she'll try some serious pushback that'll too be advanced for me to figure out. Like leave me a note that says "hey i'm going to go stay with my girlfriend's ex this week you don't need to worry I left the dog food in the closet and can you make sure to trim the hedges before i'm back?"

I feel like I should file our damn taxes, draft up a proposed distribution of our stuff and ****ing get court papers and get this done with before that happens, which I would never expect my wife to do which is exactly why I think she will. I don't know that I have the patience to endure this until she either comes to jesus on this one, or just decides to go repeat the same mistakes with someone else.

This is just me being arrogant with some passive-aggressive jealousy... "If anyone's going to be unfaithful it damn well better be me first! I'm the one that told you not to get in a lifeboat and then punched a hole in the bottom of the boat before you did! I win!"

**** it. I'm going to sleep.

 :sleeping:


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

MC is a emotional rollercoster and a mind f*ck.

The ring thing might just be a misunderstanding. I took a lot of things wrong when I was hurting.

The best part about separation, is when you do connect, its free of the day to day issues and people had time to think about their own issues. It seems like you have been able to see a lot of the issues you had and I'm sure your wife has as well. Go on a date with your wife. Something fun and as far from issues as possible. Think out for desert or something you did in the past that you both find fun. Even if all you do is spend 20 minutes snuggling on the couch without talking and then watching tv together.

Talk to her about these issues in MC. Talk about putting up walls between you. Talk about moving to the guestroom and that you are afraid she will somehow use that against you. Its very possible she'll come to jesus. It took me 3 months of MC to realize my issues and another 3 to learn how to fix them.

Best of luck, stay strong, and realize people don't think strait when hurting.



> I mostly pulled myself together but am on an extremely short fuse right now. Over stupid crap. I'm telling myself I don't care WTF she does but on the inside I do. But then IDK why I even bother. B/c I feel like we just started butting heads and never stopped.


Its really hard to be in that place. I sometimes would internally rage over basically everything. I was so hurt that all I could see from my wife is stuff that hurts me more. All we could see of eachother is faults and potential arguments. 

From what you said ealier, you used to love eachother and got along. It can go back to something even better than what you had before. you guys are just so stuck right now in a cycle of hurt.

It will take time to dig out of that and slowly talk over the backlog of issues and hurt you two have.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

I came home last night at about midnight. I didn't see the light on the porch and no one was home. I took the time I needed to decide whether to give the dog to the rescue league, a shelter or maybe to some friends (last option, not happening. they'll let him attack someone and he'll get euthanized).

I walked inside... dog was gone, too, and my wife had either put her rings back on or sold them. Where'd she go? Who cares? She did the one thing I asked, but I think it'll make it awkward for her to be out trolling w/ a large athletic dog who hates strangers.

Hmm, what's this? No one's cleaned the dishes in the sink for a week? Floor's still got furballs rolling around on it? No food or water in the cats' bowls? There's no dust in the vacuum, but there's dust ON the vacuum? I can live in a dirty house no problem, and never feel put upon to clean, but what exactly has my wife been doing all week while i've been dutifully staying away?

Somehow, I feel quite good about myself. 

Then I woke up and looked at the clock and realized I'd slept for ten hours without interruption or having to worry about a dog pooping in his crate. I felt good! No wonder my wife was always pushing me to take the dog. It's remarkable what waking up and not having anything to fret over, even if it's just one day, will do! My stress levels felt strangely manageable. If this had happened maybe once a month or so for the past year, I might not have been such an ******* about everything else.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Retitled the thread to reflect new positive developments.

Not really, I feel like crap.

Was at MC tonight. We hadn't been talking per the MC. Anyway my wife kept saying she'd be happier by herself. She didn't say she wanted a divorce but it kept sounding like she wanted to, so I helped her.

I told her I wasn't going to stay in a marriage where my partner was going to hold the threat of divorce over my head for every mistake I made, I said that I loved her but that she had not once respected me when I had tried to address my needs, that I was mad about having been neglected, that I had been working very hard on my own personal difficulties and that I had spent five or six months in counseling with someone who had come in every single time and said the same thing, about how I would be happier with someone else and we didn't "understand" each other. Then I said that I wasn't willing to live with someone who wasn't going to participate in our efforts to strengthen our marriage and that if being married to her meant she was going to continue to act the way she had, which meant holding a divorce over my head, that I would rather divorce her.

Told her I would help her pack her things and get papers etc.

Anyway the counselor really didn't help. She kept saying "you have a decision to make" etc.

To be honest I am pretty upset with the counselor. I really feel like her goal was not to help the marriage but just to help us "make a decision".

Anyway it looks like we have to live apart for a year to issue file a no-fault divorce. 


Anyway, I'm still feeling like **** because there was no infidelity or abuse involved. Makes me feel kind of like a failure--couldn't even make it to my second anniversary.


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## DjF (Nov 24, 2010)

don't beat yourself up about it...a marrige works because two become one...if it doesn't work...both are at fault...don't except all of the blame...

"Makes me feel kind of like a failure--couldn't even make it to my second anniversary. " doesn't hurt any less if it happens after 25 anniversaries...


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

DjF said:


> don't beat yourself up about it...a marrige works because two become one...if it doesn't work...both are at fault...don't except all of the blame...



I'm trying not to. Part of me keeps thinking that if I had just seen what was wrong earlier it might not be this way. I'm so upset, too, that I'd been trying for so goddamn long and having to look at how ugly I had been and what I had done wrong--only I can't help but feel like the entire time my STBX was twiddling her damn thumbs, acting like she wasn't responsible for anything.

When i was at the counselor's office I kind of got the feeling from the counselor that my wife wasn't really along for the ride to begin with.

This is a ****ing travesty. I'm going to end up with a divorce because I "was rude" to my wife's stepmother (who my wife hasn't spoken to in over a year) and that my wife "had doubts" before that. Jesus, no wonder this didn't last two years.

It's a problem, b/c until I finish my degree in the next few months I'm super-tight for money and we need to physically separate to begin divorce conditions legally.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

She didn't say she wanted a D. There is still hope. 

Theres a ton of stories on here where people don't fully realize until fully separated.



> Told her I would help her pack her things and get papers etc.


 I might wait to get papers until you see how several months apart works if you are still interested. You have to wait a year anyways.

Forcing anything at her is going to lead to D. She might reconnect and realize her mistakes. It does happen.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

anx said:


> She didn't say she wanted a D. There is still hope.
> 
> Theres a ton of stories on here where people don't fully realize until fully separated.
> 
> ...


IDK, i really feel like my wife has done little but string me along this entire time. It was like a week after the wedding it went from "us" to "her". Not externally, but I feel like that's what happened inside her. Suddenly I stopped counting. I just didn't see that until a few months ago.

And to be honest I don't think anything I could do or any way I could change could make me 'count' again. I think that what she wants is things to be perfect without having to try.

And I know I can't make her see that, or make her see what she needs to do. Her defenses are just too damn strong. Not even a very looming (as in "tomorrow") divorce is enough to get her to see that.

Maybe she's "depressed" but I don't have any sympathy for that, I'm the one who is seeing a psychiatrist every month, not her.

Worst thing is I feel like I've had to grow up an awful lot in a short amount of time and now I don't have anybody there for me.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

I agree with everything you said. She is the one that has to want to reengage. That still might happen. I would leave the door open. See if SHE grows up the the time alone like you grew up. Keep a sliver of hope.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

anx said:


> I agree with everything you said. She is the one that has to want to reengage. That still might happen. I would leave the door open. See if SHE grows up the the time alone like you grew up. Keep a sliver of hope.



That hope thing. I thought marriage was a "Semper Fi" deal, turns out it's Blackwater. I'm pretty uncertain about there going to be an empty bed for her to crawl back into--even if it's just being rented and not mortgaged--if she doesn't shape up really soon.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Also, thing was.

I had thought that maybe I came off as too mean in the MC session. I really felt like there was something she needed that she was having trouble saying. So I decided to come home and said "I think I might have been too mean, but I meant what I said."

Then she said "I'm sorry for the hurt I've caused". Okay, maybe that was condescending, maybe it wasn't.
"I'm sorry for having hurt you, too. I think that we can be happy together but I need to be with someone who isn't always ready to leave."
"We really don't like each other."
"Do you think that's true?"
"There's a lot of things I really don't like about you".

Oh, okay, so since I talked about what I needed in the MC session, here I was being punished. Well, I said "Fair enough, if you want to think that" and walked away.

In the "not cool" department, that's not cool. She was trying to use me taking responsibility for my own *possibly* bad behavior--I don't know if it was, but I think it was and would rather be safe than sorry--as an opportunity to talk **** about me. So right now my wife does have feelings. They are "I feel like my husband is a dip****".

After about fifteen or twenty minutes of tidying up I went and said that "if you have the faintest desire to for this marriage to stay together at all you need to take some responsibility for it" and then walked away.


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## vivea (Jan 22, 2011)

less_disgruntled said:


> I'm feeling pretty damn bitter here.
> 
> I haven't spoken to, or emailed my wife, on anything but the barest of bare essentials: have the animals been fed. Etc. I really want to go home right now and relax on my couch. But my wife is there.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the OFF but ...
I just have to say you're an excellent writer...you describe your feelings in such dynamic way I feel like i'm reading a book.

Sorry for what you're going through.Wish you the best of luck!


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

I think you guys could have both worded things a little bit better.



> "We really don't like each other."
> "Do you think that's true?"
> "There's a lot of things I really don't like about you".


 Ouch 



> if you have the faintest desire to for this marriage to stay together at all you need to take some responsibility for it


 I hope she realizes.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

anx said:


> I think you guys could have both worded things a little bit better.
> 
> Ouch


It's that "both" part that's the killer. Not going to sit around giving her a chance to make amends if she's going to be snotty to me. Which is all counseling did for us, was show how one-sided the relationship had been. It hurts that I got into this to begin with.




> I hope she realizes.


Reality is setting in for me here. It's pretty lonely.

I feel like I should try to thaw things but I don't know, my effort at "communicating" last night was just exploited as "weakness". God knows what will happen if I try to hug her.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

I guess the only other suggestion I have is when people are hurting, they don't think strait. Despite my story working out, it took me redoubling my efforts to show my wife I wanted to make it work and see still needed 2 months of separation to reconnect. 

I'm not sure what you should do. Figure out if your wife will be nicer to you. She is hurting too, and doesn't know if she wants to reconnect. 

In my own story, we nearly gave up several times. It would alternate too. She was connected and I didn't get it. When I finally got it, she was starting to withdrawl and separated from me for 2 months. I was falling apart at the end of it, and we finally reconnected.

Best of luck.


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## DjF (Nov 24, 2010)

It's tough reconnecting...I'm finding out just how tough...moving in inches rather than miles at a time...

It's been almost six months now since she moved out, and we know we love each other, just need to get over the hump and fully reconnect...

It's weird...we can chat over the computer and have extremely meaningful conversations...but when face to face, we hardly talk right now because neither of us want to say anything to step on the other's toes...we want so much to move forward that we are too careful when together...eventually, hopefully, that will get fixed too...

MC is suppose to be right around the corner for us, the next big step...


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

We're pretty much done with MC. My wife said, when the counselor asked, that she wouldn't commit to MC. I think the counselor pushed this issue too much but if she needed explicit commitment to 'work' instead of me being willing to and my wife not, there's not much I can do.

I had felt like I wasn't being heard in MC. I started MC b/c I didn't know how to get heard at home. Well, the more things change, I guess.

I feel exploited about this, like I was patient and trying hard and trying to be better and now that I'm happier and stabler... I don't have anyone to share it with.


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## Crankshaw (Jan 12, 2011)

less_disgruntled said:


> We're pretty much done with MC. My wife said, when the counselor asked, that she wouldn't commit to MC. I think the counselor pushed this issue too much but if she needed explicit commitment to 'work' instead of me being willing to and my wife not, there's not much I can do.
> 
> I had felt like I wasn't being heard in MC. I started MC b/c I didn't know how to get heard at home. Well, the more things change, I guess.
> 
> I feel exploited about this, like I was patient and trying hard and trying to be better and now that I'm happier and stabler... I don't have anyone to share it with.


You will, and it will be your current wifes loss.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

So whats next?

Are you still going to go to MC or IC? Is she going to separate for the time being and see where she is at in a few months.

My wife wasn't able to commit for about 2 months, but we kept going to MC. If the counselor had made her chose yes or no, the answer would have been no.

Its stupid if the counselor made that ultimatum for you.

You could find a new MC too if you wanted.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

anx said:


> So whats next?
> 
> Are you still going to go to MC or IC? Is she going to separate for the time being and see where she is at in a few months.
> 
> ...


I realized I was mad about this **** but now it's just confusion.

She let us fight in every session. In fact, that was what every session turned into. I asked her for us to take a more practical approach to things, to work on communication, on day-to-day stuff, and on communication. She said "do you know what you mean" and I said "yes--i really need for my wife and I to be more explicit about things to each other. Like i need her to acknowledge the importance of something by indicating she heard it. If I say "we need money for new car tires" I need my wife to say "okay, I will make sure not to spend below $XXX before I get my expense check"."

I mean I had said it all there. I wanted us to talk more, I wanted us to talk about practical things that had led to lots of resentments and I wanted to know a way to make sure we were actually listening.

What I got was "Couples can either commit to marriage counseling, or they can not".


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

We aren't going back to that counselor, for sure.

Going to do what I can to be a better partner. We can go back to counseling later. Going to be careful about not being too lax or too firm with my boundaries. That's all I can do, b/c I'm scared the **** away from MC for now.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

> She let us fight in every session.


 Thats messed. as soon as it gets more than just talking they should stop you.



> What I got was "Couples can either commit to marriage counseling, or they can not".


 Also messed. If you can keep going and talking thats 1/2 the battle. 

This really shouldn't have happened at all. I'm sorry it went poorly. I'm actually mad at hearing that it turned out like this. You guys screwed by a cr*py MC. Why the hell would the counselor let you fight? It doesn't fix or help anything. We never got past being frustrated without being stopped.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

No doubt, I thought we'd get a coach and it was more like a boxing referee.


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## vivea (Jan 22, 2011)

This is what I'm scared of.Crappy MC can screw everything up.
less_disgruntled...what kind of credentials did the MC have ?!
I was reading the the ones with LMFT and PHD are better in marriage issues.
read this article it's helpful on finding a good one
How to find a good therapist 2


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

vivea said:


> This is what I'm scared of.Crappy MC can screw everything up.
> less_disgruntled...what kind of credentials did the MC have ?!
> I was reading the the ones with LMFT and PHD are better in marriage issues.
> read this article it's helpful on finding a good one
> How to find a good therapist 2


One licensed MA/MS therapist. Been trying to find this second one's credentials but then gave up after about fifteen minutes. Neither was church/religious, something i really hope to avoid. I don't need Jesus or the Scientologists in my living room.

Honestly this counselor made things far, far worse. Like she said we needed to stop talking and interacting and treat each other like "roommates" which may actually have destroyed a shaky marriage. Yes, it helped me realize I was hurt and angry. It's just also taken a ****ing month to start to talk to my wife again. What a bunch of ****. I am pretty unhappy with this counselor and may email her.

If I do go to another MC they will be a Ph.D. I am not taking advice from someone with a two-year degree and a couple certifications on child therapy.


Just found it. This therapist was an MS LMFT for groups, children and families. Man, I really didn't do my due diligence on this one, now I'm holding a bag of ****. FWIW I think she'd have been a good IC, just a terrible MC.

I think. I know I can be a better husband and partner and am doing what I can to be one.


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