# Done everything but the leavin'



## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

I was pretty sure I’d make this post eventually. Here it is finally. I’ve been reading the posts in this “focused topic” for over 2 years now. I’ve gotten to the point where I already know the responses I might get, and from whom. If I’m lucky, I’ll get a temporary reprieve from my misery with another (bad) Bad Santa joke (and perhaps some actual wisdom - seems like a smart dude, too smart to actually be a guy in fact!). If I get a reply from Ms. “lighter shade of red”, I’ll wonder, yet again how anyone who has time to post nearly 10,000 times (a milestone to be celebrated somehow?!?) could possibly have time to focus on her marriage too. Perhaps she could let us know her secret to being a super woman. I’d like to give my wife a dose of whatever she’s doing. If I’m extremely lucky, I’ll get to reply to one of the “serious” crowd, who for some reason, need to know intimate details of my wife and our, well, “intimacy”: How old are we, are we in good shape, what are our favorite positions. “You need to provide us with more DETAILS before we can help you…”. Oh, and before anyone bothers mentioning “love languages”, 180, MMSLP, or the general concept of “make yourself a better person for yourself - not for you wife”, or the more basil: “if your wife sees how hot you are to other women, she’ll come around” - well, before any of that: Been There, Done That. I’ve read the books (pretty much ALL of them), taken the quizzes, tried the 180 (twice in fact). Nothing changed. Oh, about that 180… Before anyone says I didn’t do it right if I had to try twice, let me clue you in on a little secret: Women KNOW about it! When you’ve been with someone for 20+ years and you start making even subtle changes, (s)he will KNOW what you’re doing, especially if (s)he has read the books too!

Ok, long enough “I’ve now pissed everybody off…” into. The basics: Wife and I have two pre-teen kids, are in our late 40’s, have been married almost 20 years, both in good shape (despite some serious health issues), both been classified by friends/others as “good looking”. No real financial issues, own a nice home, have pretty much what we need in terms of material things to have a perfectly happy life together. Love our kids, go to church, vote, eat apple pie, blond, blue eyed, all-American stereotypical “perfect” couple. If I have to resort to the jargon, my wife is (and always has been) LD. I guess I used to be MD (Ok, just invented that I think: “Medium Demand”). Maybe I was “CHD” (Closet High Demand - hey, I’m on a roll here with the new jargon…”). By that I mean a combination of porn, masturbation, and the 1x per week sex with wifey kept me at least thinking I was happy. Now, due to the meds. I’m taking for a chronic neurological disease (need to know which one for some reason, think about a short Canadian actor, a DeLorean, and a “flux capacitor”), which TOTALLY F’s up my brain chemistry, I’m HD, and have been so for the past 4-5 years. So, in short (sorry LONG I know!): I’ve changed, my wife hasn’t. She’s come right out and said that she’s not gonna change, and if I expect her to, well “you’re married to the wrong person”. In a couple of our more heated “discussions” on this topic (and we’ve spent 100’s of hours over the past 3 years, well, “discussing” it), she’s suggested I simply “go downtown” to find what I’m looking for and leave her the hell alone! I’ve actually almost done that a few times, but I’m pretty sure that would be the final nail in the proverbial coffin which holds this petrifying corpse that is our marriage. Marriage counseling: Done that too. In fact we’re now on our third. Two were not only MFTs, but specially certified as “sex therapists”. The only thing that’s changed with all those 10’s (100’s???) of hours is that now we’re paying $200 per hour to talk to a real “doctor” (as in with a Ph.D.).

I love my kids, love my wife, love my house, cars, backyard - life’s just peachy, or at least I have no excuse for it not to be. So, between the MANY hours of counseling, the dozens of books I’ve read, the 1000’s of posts on TAM I’ve read (many actually useful!!!), the 100’s of hours of one-on-one talks, the 20 or so letters I’ve written to my wife, the couple’s retreats, the seminars, the “re-establish your connection to each other” messages, etc., etc. - with ALL that, or maybe because of all that, our sex life is worse than it’s ever been, and I simply don’t know what to do any more. So, again after reading MANY post offering the options, well yeah, I know, I KNOW:

*1)Suck it up and be miserable until your kids are out of the house.
2)Have an affair (or see a “professional” regularly).
3)Get a divorce ASAP.
*​OK, so if I already know what the collective TAM will say, why did I post this monologue? Just to piss y’all off with my excessive use of quotes? Well, because I’m desperate. I still hold out hope that the wisdom of that collective mind that is TAM can come up with something I’ve missed. ANYTHING…


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Be open and take your wife out for a meal or coffee, share with her exactly how you feel. Give her some literature on the needs of men in a marriage and how it is affecting your bond with her. Tell her the options you have and may be forced to choose, do not suffer in silence.


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## mrshavisham (Mar 8, 2016)

Have you explained to her that it's not just sex to fulfill your physical needs, but it's also the intimacy, the bond?

I had to sit my husband down, numerous times, before it finally sunk into his brain. He was so focused on our future (money, house, cars, kid, etc) and fully believed that that's all that mattered. Were you ever like that throughout your marriage with your wife? Focusing on money, work, etc, not giving time to your bond/connection?

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

Drop divorce papers and see what happens.
If she smiles and thanks you you have your answer.
If you are really that miserable maybe it's time to go.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

TooMuchTalk said:


> I was pretty sure I’d make this post eventually. Here it is finally. I’ve been reading the posts in this “focused topic” for over 2 years now. I’ve gotten to the point where I already know the responses I might get, and from whom. If I’m lucky, I’ll get a temporary reprieve from my misery with another (bad) Bad Santa joke (and perhaps some actual wisdom - seems like a smart dude, too smart to actually be a guy in fact!). If I get a reply from Ms. “lighter shade of red”, I’ll wonder, yet again how anyone who has time to post nearly 10,000 times (a milestone to be celebrated somehow?!?) could possibly have time to focus on her marriage too. Perhaps she could let us know her secret to being a super woman. I’d like to give my wife a dose of whatever she’s doing. If I’m extremely lucky, I’ll get to reply to one of the “serious” crowd, who for some reason, need to know intimate details of my wife and our, well, “intimacy”: How old are we, are we in good shape, what are our favorite positions. “You need to provide us with more DETAILS before we can help you…”. Oh, and before anyone bothers mentioning “love languages”, 180, MMSLP, or the general concept of “make yourself a better person for yourself - not for you wife”, or the more basil: “if your wife sees how hot you are to other women, she’ll come around” - well, before any of that: Been There, Done That. I’ve read the books (pretty much ALL of them), taken the quizzes, tried the 180 (twice in fact). Nothing changed. Oh, about that 180… Before anyone says I didn’t do it right if I had to try twice, let me clue you in on a little secret: Women KNOW about it! When you’ve been with someone for 20+ years and you start making even subtle changes, (s)he will KNOW what you’re doing, especially if (s)he has read the books too!
> 
> Ok, long enough “I’ve now pissed everybody off…” into. The basics: Wife and I have two pre-teen kids, are in our late 40’s, have been married almost 20 years, both in good shape (despite some serious health issues), both been classified by friends/others as “good looking”. No real financial issues, own a nice home, have pretty much what we need in terms of material things to have a perfectly happy life together. Love our kids, go to church, vote, eat apple pie, blond, blue eyed, all-American stereotypical “perfect” couple. If I have to resort to the jargon, my wife is (and always has been) LD. I guess I used to be MD (Ok, just invented that I think: “Medium Demand”). Maybe I was “CHD” (Closet High Demand - hey, I’m on a roll here with the new jargon…”). By that I mean a combination of porn, masturbation, and the 1x per week sex with wifey kept me at least thinking I was happy. Now, due to the meds. I’m taking for a chronic neurological disease (need to know which one for some reason, think about a short Canadian actor, a DeLorean, and a “flux capacitor”), which TOTALLY F’s up my brain chemistry, I’m HD, and have been so for the past 4-5 years. So, in short (sorry LONG I know!): I’ve changed, my wife hasn’t. She’s come right out and said that she’s not gonna change, and if I expect her to, well “you’re married to the wrong person”. In a couple of our more heated “discussions” on this topic (and we’ve spent 100’s of hours over the past 3 years, well, “discussing” it), she’s suggested I simply “go downtown” to find what I’m looking for and leave her the hell alone! I’ve actually almost done that a few times, but I’m pretty sure that would be the final nail in the proverbial coffin which holds this petrifying corpse that is our marriage. Marriage counseling: Done that too. In fact we’re now on our third. Two were not only MFTs, but specially certified as “sex therapists”. The only thing that’s changed with all those 10’s (100’s???) of hours is that now we’re paying $200 per hour to talk to a real “doctor” (as in with a Ph.D.).
> 
> ...


Unfortunately it's an exercise in futility, you can't change the stripes on a zebra, I found out the hard way. :frown2:

I've personally decided to call it quits as I am in a very similar situation. The bottom line, I don't think we are compatible, too bad it took this long to figure out. It's a fvcked up world barely surviving in a lonely marriage, it made me feel so small and insignificant.

I hope you get what you want, keep your head up.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I am of the opinion that all issues ultimately come down to cognitive ability or, more accurately the lack thereof. Your wife and untold thousands like her, does not have the ability to fully comprehend and understand your plight. You can try to reason with her but unless she is able to grasp the basic concept your efforts will prove futile. So then, because of her lack of cognitive function, the tools which we use to express our thoughts and related feelings, i.e. reason, logic and rationale, will not be effective on her.

When these tools are taken from our toolbox we must then resort to finding anything that has the possibility of being effective at conveying our feelings and angst. We must move from the mental to the physical. In exactly the same way that one can not reason with a child, so also must we understand that in those individuals with lesser developed mentality a physical approach may be the only method that proves worthwhile.

Understanding this, you must initiate punitive consequences for her behavior in an effort to cause an empathetic response to your dilemma. I suggest you find something she dearly wants, perhaps even feels she needs and then work to take it away. As she expresses her intense angst over losing said thing then you can explain to her that your desperation over the loss of intimacy with her is exactly like the thing she is now forced to live without. She must be forced to feel your pain since her ability to feel it through communication (ability to empathize) has not been productive.

For many being served with D papers is the ultimate "spanking" that one spouse can inflict on the other which is why many here recommend it as a possibly effective tool. In any event, you must convey to her through physical manifestation as opposed to mentally. This may prove somewhat effective or it may prove futile as well. In my case it proved semi-effective. I wish you good fortune.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You've done everything but one of your 3 items, I honesty respect the effort and lengths you've gone to. Problem is it sounds like you were doing them alone, and frankly, I assume you didnt get married to be alone.

You acknowledge that life is really good apart from the sex. Only you can choose to be honest with us and yourself when you admit that. I suspect you are not at all happy, rather you fear losing those things that ARE great by taking a final action, like divorce, so your brain is reminding you of what you'll lose. 

Your wife has a great power over your choices. I once lost everything I had in a previous life (my physical home, my right to remain & work in my "home", 90% of my personal effects, 100% of my friends of years, list goes on) because of a choice I made. The slate was wiped clean. While I was scared beyond belief at times, I knew that the choice I'd made was the correct one. I can't imagine my life now if I'd made a different choice... 

You only get one life. I've learned that many things in that life can be transitory, including people. My father died of a degenerative brain disease, once often misdiagnosed as yours. I was amazingly prepared when he passed away. The reality of losing him was the start of my resilience, and then it kept getting tested as my 20s went by. Now, not a day goes by that I do not see the world for what it really is.

The world doesn't owe me anything, but I owe me everything possible. All the best with whatever choice you make!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

you have two choices you can make.

you can choose to be happy no matter what your sex life with your wife is like. enjoy all the things you mentioned that you have in your life. quit obsessing over it. accept it might not change. and it won't be the end of the world. your penis won't shrivel up and fall off. 

or make it your hill to die on.

with the first option you get to see your children grow up with an intact family and some other positive aspect of marriage 

with the second option you get to look for a woman who will be your sexual equal........which by the way could change after marriage.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Your frustration (and bitterness) clearly shows in your post, especially your long lead up (about TAMers) to your problem.

Am I reading correctly that you have 1x week sex? Many here would give their right arm for that.

Yes, your wife is not going to change unless she takes drugs to make her HD. If your meds make you HD, talk to your neurologist about other meds that can lower your libido, if your condition permits Not the solution you want but it is a solution. My wife has very serious life altering condition (not same as yours) and her drugs make her LD or ND when I am becoming more HD. It sucks, I know. 

A good friend of mine had not had sex with his wife in 5 years. He went downtown (actually uptown, since he has money) one time. Did not work for him. He felt guilty and told wife. In your case, you have permission but I doubt you will go that route. I doubt you will go the D route either. 

You probably burned wife out over 100’s of hours over the past 3 years, well, “discussing” it. She is sick of hearing you whine about it and she gave you some options acceptable to her.

You can also find a sex only partner. Not emotional affair, not pro. If wife is ok with that, what is YOUR problem with that? Do you want sex or do you want sex ONLY with wife?

You have many many choices here but you have turned them all down and are fixated on the one thing you probably will not get - more sex with your wife.

BTW, Is your username a throw-away? Do you have another name that we will recognize?


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

chillymorn said:


> you have two choices you can make.
> 
> you can choose to be happy no matter what your sex life with your wife is like. enjoy all the things you mentioned that you have in your life. quit obsessing over it. accept it might not change. and it won't be the end of the world. your penis won't shrivel up and fall off.
> 
> ...


This. My ex-husband chose the OP's option 2, and after zero discussion about how he felt, zero counseling, zero effort to try to fix things. I'm not LD, but felt disconnected from him and lonely in the marriage, too. But we got along very well in all other aspects, were on the same page about parenting our son, and seemed like The Golden Couple to everyone else.

He chose to cheat on me, then decided to leave me for her. Now he's lost our son's respect, my friendship, trust, and respect, and our intact family for someone he tells me now wasn't worth it. Guess the non-stop sex has slowed way down since he moved her in with him, and found out she has a thyroid condition and is actually LD.

If you do decide to end your marriage, please do it honorably. Leave while you have no one else in mind and be alone for a while, like you're sentencing your wife to be. It'll hurt her - I know, because my ex framed his plans to leave me as if they were honorable like that until I found out about her accidentally - but it won't be nearly as devastating to her and your kids as cheating. Even though she says to "go downtown," trust me - she really doesn't mean it and really doesn't want you to do that.

Think, too, about the message cheating will convey to your kids. You may think you can hide it from everyone. You can't. We all figure it out or find out eventually. They will never fully respect you again. Even if your wife is magnanimous about it, like I am, never saying a bad word about you to or in front of your kids. You will destroy a lot more than just your marriage, that you believe is already over. (My ex justified his actions with that last thought - but he didn't consider the destruction he'd cause to our extended family relationships and long-time friendships - hell, he didn't even think it would affect his son's life all that much).

Your wife is wrong to be so insensitive to your many efforts to communicate to her how the lack of intimacy makes you feel. I didn't get any of the chances you've given her. My ex just disconnected from me privately, without saying a word, and then when he was good and detached, took up with the first woman to throw herself at him. I like to think that if I had known how he felt, I would have taken it to heart and been more than willing to fight for our marriage.

I wish you all the best. I just hope you'll really think about how the next actions you choose to take will affect your kids' lives and all your other long-term relationships that are intertwined with your wife.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

TooMuchTalk said:


> *1)Suck it up and be miserable until your kids are out of the house.
> 2)Have an affair (or see a “professional” regularly).
> 3)Get a divorce ASAP.
> *​


You missed some options

4. Accept it completely and figure out how to be happy (not miserable) without plentiful sex which starts with not thinking about it at all. BTW perhaps you have shut her down with pressure. This approach cures that and sometimes there is improvement from that

5. Intentionally emotionally detach form your wife and not want her for that reason

6. Serve divorce papers and be prepared for any outcome but on occasion this triggers improvement because she finally realizes you are serious 

Establish as many satisfying pursuits as possible to fill as much of the empty hole as possible regardless of what you choose.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You cannot change her.

Your three choices are almost right.

Option 4 is destabilizing. Stop meeting her needs. She needs to vent? Something else?

"Sorry, I really only feel like doing x once per week. And that one time a week, I will tell you to hurry up because it is really not much fun for me. Does that sound like the actions of a loving husband?"

That is harsh, but I had a similar problem with my wife. It required several times of doing this for her to get it. I was willing to leave her unless she upped her effort level.

The sex is not the problem in your relationship. It is her lack of want to please you. 

Why is she not interested in pleasing you?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You say your wife has always been LD. What was the frequency in the beginning of your relationship? What is it now? How has that changed over the years?

Does your wife work?

Is she satisfied when you do have sex? How do you know? How sure are you?

Does your wife work? How long?


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

I have to agree with earlier post - make sure your wife knows that is a BONDING experience, not JUST sex. She may find the following links of interest. And, as another poster also mentioned - 1 x week is a whole lot better'n NUTHIN.

The Other Side of the Wall - The Forgiven Wife

New to this blog? Start here. - The Forgiven Wife

And since you mentioned going to church, ask her for her thoughts on 1 Cor 7. Doesn't give you excuse to go totally wild at the buffet, but doesn't say she can close the doors either.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TooMuchTalk said:


> *1)Suck it up and be miserable until your kids are out of the house.
> 2)Have an affair (or see a “professional” regularly).
> 3)Get a divorce ASAP.
> *​


..drum roll please! (and just as you anticipated) @TooMuchTalk

*
4) Throw a sexually passive aggressive temper tantrum!*

Not only will this make you feel better, but if done cleverly and confidently enough, it actually CAN improve your marriage. You have to think of it like hazing your wife as if she was a little bit more like a fraternity brother trying to pledge. You have to throw your tantrum in a ways that are clever, thoughtful, and rather devious.

• Buy flowers when you get home from work, bring them home and put them into a vase while she watches, let her assume they are for her, then go visit her mom and give the flowers to her mom for no reason. (This will make her mad and jealous, but she can not show it because you did something nice for her mom). 
• EVERY TIME you leave the house, tell her you are going shopping at the adult novelty store, even though you never actually go! Come home with something nice for the family like a pizza and a movie.
• Buy your wife a gift on a random day and wrap it up, tell her it is from the adult novelty store (make sure it is big), even though it is actually something nice from Bed Bath & Beyond. If she refuses to open it, take it and give it to her mom! She will get angry and jealous when she finds out it is just a new spice rack for the kitchen, but then she can't get mad at you because you did something nice for her mom.

...and so on! Let me know if you need help with more ideas?

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Did you say that you are taking a medication that has ramped up your sex drive from "MD" to "HD"? 

Did I read correctly that your wife has not changed and you said somewhere along the line it was 1x a week? 

My first thought if the above is true is to discuss this issue with your doctor - the one prescribing the meds with the side effect - and ask if you can either switch to a different med or figure out some way to counter this side effect. And I don't mean ask to have NO drive at all. I mean something to get you back to your "normal"...since per your post it seems things were fine until your drive spiked beyond what it used to be.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Right now, you AND your wife have a long-established habit of thinking of sex as "all about you."

To you, sex is an essential need, like breathing or eating food. Your body craves it, and makes you desperate for it and not think clearly when you don't get it as needed. The less your wife provides it, the more you believe that she doesn't love you, because why would someone you loved deprive you and torture you this way?

To your wife, it is not just non-essential, it has become a less than pleasant service she must perform for you on a regular basis so you stop pestering her. For a few days. The more you want it, the more your wife believes that you don't love her, because why would someone who loved her bother her over and over like this?

You have the classic vicious circle of the man thinking of sex as the intimacy and the providing of affection as the price to get sex, and the woman thinking of affection as the intimacy and sex as the price to get affection. Let me guess that because you aren't getting sex, you aren't providing much affection, and because she isn't getting affection, she isn't providing much sex. So neither of you feel connected to the other, and neither of you thinks that you should be the one to change. You both need to change your thinking. BOTH of you. YOU are the problem as much as she is.

Be affectionate with her, in physical but nonsexual ways. Don't do ANYTHING that seems like initiating sex for YOU, but feel free to initiate anything that is for HER. Offer massage, offer oral, etc, but demand nothing for yourself. Create an atmosphere that sex is for her pleasure as much as it is for yours, that it should be a mutual experience. It will take some time to overcome her habit of thinking that sex is for YOU. For a long while, her response is going to be "oh he's only being sweet so he can get into my pants." She's not going to believe you you mean it altruistically until it has become reliable.

Failing that, sit down with your wife and discuss the best way for you to get your sexual needs met elsewhere without doing anything illegal or taking a chance of emotions getting involved. Ask her what she thinks of you taking regular solo trips to somewhere prostitution is legal. Treat it as a marriage problem that should be solved mutually, because you still love and respect each other, not a decision for you to make alone. If you prefer to make the decision alone, then face the fact that your marriage is already over and skip to the divorce option.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

TooMuchTalk said:


> 1x per week sex with wifey kept me at least thinking I was happy. Now, due to the meds. I’m taking .... which TOTALLY F’s up my brain chemistry, I’m HD, and have been so for the past 4-5 years. So, in short (sorry LONG I know!): I’ve changed, my wife hasn’t. She’s come right out and said that she’s not gonna change, and if I expect her to, well “you’re married to the wrong person”.
> 
> 
> I love my kids, love my wife, love my house, cars, backyard - life’s just peachy, or at least I have no excuse for it not to be.
> ...


And why didn't you go to the Dr. within the first few months you realized your sex drive had changed? Because you LIKED IT, right? Now that you aren't able to convince your wife to adapt to it, you are thinking that _she_ is the problem, not your medicated sex drive.

However, your sex drive is artificial, and is putting strain on your otherwise good marriage.

Why on earth would you even consider pressuring your wife to change, or threaten divorce when you know that it is your sex drive that has artificially changed due to meds???

Option #4: go to the Dr. and see if he can give you something that will get your sex drive back to your "normal"...MD.


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

First, THANK YOU ALL so very much, and I'm NOT being cynical or sarcastic in saying that. I truly mean it! Nearly every post showed more insight into and understanding of our situation than our $200/hour therapist. That, despite my rather cynical and acerbic post/rant (tantrum if you prefer Bad Santa!). I would have been much better off, and probably a whole lot happier sending every responder a nice gift card (clearly to Bed Bath and Beyond for Bad Santa - only confirms my suspicions about "his" true gender - kidding!!! I prefer shopping at L'Octane myself - wife loves that damn $$$ stuff), rather than "waste" the $1000's on therapists. Several very useful suggestions too!

Just to clear up a couple of points (my mistakes, I see now how my intent was misread): Unfortunately we do NOT have sex 1x per week. Indeed I would be quite happy with that, if we could maintain it for any length of time. I meant to say that was our "best" frequency, before kids, in fact, before we were married. OK, so I certainly know my wife was LD, and married her anyway. I loved her. I still do. I thought things would change. For the past 3 years, I'd say we average about 1x per month or less, sometimes 2x in a month, then 1x in a 2 month period.

The second item: Despite how it may seem, I have not previously posted under another user name. I actually THOUGHT about posting dozens of times in the past 2-3 years. I actual hit "post" a couple of times, only to immediately delete it again.

Bad Santa: When you get to talk about "edge of the bed sex" with your wife, I suspect you are then envy of most posters in this forum. I've done the whole "spontaneous niceness" things several times. My wife hasn't worked in several years, post kids.

My increase in demand is certainly at least partly due to some of the medication I'm taking. However, a much large part is simply wanting to move forward in a mutually pleasurable manner. Unfortunately my wife doesn't really seem capable (her upbringing? who knows!). I don't think she's actually ever had an orgasm. No use of toys or masturbation EVER! She's not self-conscious about her body, just sort of "disinterested"??? I was hoping after all these years together to slowly move forward, slowly expanding her comfort zone. A'int gonna happen!

I'll lay off the pressure for a while (per both your suggestions and the "doc's") for sex, and focus on reconnecting as husband and wife for a while. Too much focus and effort has been on the kids these past few years. I'll provide updates if/when something significant changes.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

OP,
Is your wife going through menopause? It is possible that sex might just be painful for her from her lack of estrogen. Also, is she depressed? Antidepressants can also wreak havoc on the libido.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

My advice: schedule a "talk" with her over coffee on a Saturday morning when all is quiet and you can be alone.
Tell her you are miserable with your sexless marriage and this is in fact a total dealbreaker for you.
Tell her you have tried absolutely everything but have run out of options so the inevitable time has arrived for this painful discussion.
In order to keep the marriage going, you will begin following her earlier advice to "go downtown" and will commence to "leave her alone".
She needs to understand this is the point-of-no-return, the marriage is about to become a pure roommate situation.
But this was HER proposed solution so if this leads to the marriage ending, she needs to blame herself.
Now ask: does she see any other way forward? Then be quiet and listen.

FYI, my marriage almost ended due to a sexless marriage. I followed alot of the standard advice, but the ONLY thing that worked was a talk like this, I call it her "taillights in the driveway" moment, when it really sunk in for her that I was seriously going to blow up the marriage over something trivial like sex.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

tommyr said:


> My advice: schedule a "talk" with her over coffee on a Saturday morning when all is quiet and you can be alone.
> Tell her you are miserable with your sexless marriage and this is in fact a total dealbreaker for you.
> Tell her you have tried absolutely everything but have run out of options so the inevitable time has arrived for this painful discussion.
> In order to keep the marriage going, you will begin following her earlier advice to "go downtown" and will commence to "leave her alone".
> ...



only use this method if your serious about ending it. they can smell a bluff a mile away.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> only use this method if your serious about ending it. they can smell a bluff a mile away.


Bluffing? It's not about bluffing, it's about getting honest!
And the gods-honest truth is very few normal men (and not many women) could be happy long term in a sexless marriage.
There is no bluffing involved with revealing this truth.
Somebody upthread raised the question "is this the hill to die on" and for most normal men, this isn't even a question! There is no amount of "willpower" or "love for spouse" that could suppress one's natural sex drive into staying (contently) in a sexless marriage.

So the actual truth is, unless his wife is willing to reconsider her less-than-1X-per-month sexual frequency, their marriage WILL end. 

The *only* exception would be if he is able to pull off an open marriage, meeting his normal sexual needs outside the marriage. This may be worth a try, since she suggested it, but I have doubts this is anything more than delaying the inevitable divorce.

I forgot to say this earlier: when you have that pivotal Talk, be specific about what your sexual needs are. For example, tell her you would like to have sex once per week. Ask her if she would commit to sex 1X/week as a way to save the marriage. This gives her all the essential parameters to make an informed decision. And who would want to stay with a person who refuses to meet such a normal and reasonable need?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

tommyr said:


> Bluffing? It's not about bluffing, it's about getting honest!
> And the gods-honest truth is very few normal men (and not many women) could be happy long term in a sexless marriage.
> There is no bluffing involved with revealing this truth.
> Somebody upthread raised the question "is this the hill to die on" and for most normal men, this isn't even a question! There is no amount of "willpower" or "love for spouse" that could suppress one's natural sex drive into staying (contently) in a sexless marriage.
> ...


Tommy, I think what he meant was to make sure you are willing to end the relationship over sex before you tell her you are willing to end it over sex. If not, it just adds to the problems.

Never...ever...ever play brinksmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TooMuchTalk said:


> That, despite my rather cynical and acerbic post/rant (tantrum if you prefer Bad Santa!). I would have been much better off, and probably a whole lot happier sending every responder a nice gift card (clearly to Bed Bath and Beyond for Bad Santa - only confirms my suspicions about "his" true gender - kidding!!! I prefer shopping at L'Octane myself - wife loves that damn $$$ stuff),


I enjoy shopping at Bed Bath & Beyond because they have a CO2 tank exchange program and I enjoy making my own brew of soda pops. Mostly concentrated cranberry, an red-bullish-like energy mix, and a good bit of rum. Combine that with the fact that they continue to take their 40% off coupons no matter how long ago they expired and I run by the place about every other month. 

One of my favorite "go to" tantrums is that of Mr. Nice Guy. But I twist things around. MNG is know for getting upset that his wife will break covert/undisclosed contracts for sex. ME does not have this problem, because I make my contracts very explicit and conspicuous. An example is that I might be angry with my wife, so I will do something extremely nice for her, but while I am doing it I will explain what I expect her to do for me in return. Often she will try to stop me from doing said nice thing for her, only to find that she can NOT stop my niceness. That is then followed up with my ridiculous and extreme over confidence for sex, that could even charm the underwear off of a bronze statue. 

See look! They all use to be fully clothed until I walked by one day. You've got me to thank for the fact that most public female statues are now nude. (your welcome)

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Talk,
There are a few conversational themes - that are so awkward that after you raise them - no one responds. You haven't done that here - but I'm about to. 

So I'll just jump right into it. For folks who LIKE sex, the statistics of their experience look like a bell curve with the mean being a very good experience, and just the rare outlier being bad sex. 

That is not remotely like the experience for your wife. She has more of a bath tub curve. The experience is either good or it is bad. And bad sex - feels as bad - as really bad food. 

Let me put this a totally different way. LD folks get divorced over this topic all the time. So what does that tell you? 

It's a sincere question. To frame it more specifically - there are a ton of LD spouses who - if you said - once a week or we are done effective immediately - they would shrug and let you file. Not because they want a divorce. But because, for many of them, the experience is actually quite bad. 




TooMuchTalk said:


> First, THANK YOU ALL so very much, and I'm NOT being cynical or sarcastic in saying that. I truly mean it! Nearly every post showed more insight into and understanding of our situation than our $200/hour therapist. That, despite my rather cynical and acerbic post/rant (tantrum if you prefer Bad Santa!). I would have been much better off, and probably a whole lot happier sending every responder a nice gift card (clearly to Bed Bath and Beyond for Bad Santa - only confirms my suspicions about "his" true gender - kidding!!! I prefer shopping at L'Octane myself - wife loves that damn $$$ stuff), rather than "waste" the $1000's on therapists. Several very useful suggestions too!
> 
> Just to clear up a couple of points (my mistakes, I see now how my intent was misread): Unfortunately we do NOT have sex 1x per week. Indeed I would be quite happy with that, if we could maintain it for any length of time. I meant to say that was our "best" frequency, before kids, in fact, before we were married. OK, so I certainly know my wife was LD, and married her anyway. I loved her. I still do. I thought things would change. For the past 3 years, I'd say we average about 1x per month or less, sometimes 2x in a month, then 1x in a 2 month period.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Talk,
> There are a few conversational themes - that are so awkward that after you raise them - no one responds. You haven't done that here - but I'm about to.
> 
> So I'll just jump right into it. For folks who LIKE sex, the statistics of their experience look like a bell curve with the mean being a very good experience, and just the rare outlier being bad sex.
> ...


This is a GREAT point.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The HD in these situations has a reflexive reaction - which is to press for increased frequency. 

That not only doesn't work. It cannot work. 

There is only one play to run - and it can only run in total sincerity mode - and it is a play that should only be run if you actually can handle the truth whatever it is. 

It's a sub type of the 'all about you' play. And it looks sort of like this. 

I don't want you to do anything you truly don't want to do. It's obvious many/most of our sexual experiences are bad for you. Thing is - I need you to help me make them - not be bad for you. Can you help me understand how to do that? 






kag123 said:


> This is a GREAT point.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> The HD in these situations has a reflexive reaction - which is to press for increased frequency.
> 
> That not only doesn't work. It cannot work.
> 
> ...


The issue he might run into is that she may not be able to give him a concrete answer to that question. 

If you are LD and your body just isn't responding to sex like the HD partners does, it's never going to be as enjoyable for you as it is to them. That has little or nothing to do with what the HD partner does (or does not do). You just aren't going to desire sex that often. 

If my H posed the question to me in your post I would truly not know how to answer it. How to make sex "less bad" = have it less often so I have a chance to build up an anticipation for it. But that is exactly what he would not want to hear, in theory. 

The only solution in my mind is for my H to be OK with enthusiastic duty sex. And to know I am doing it for him from a loving place, but he can't expect me to always be as into it as he is. 

Also we are not in the same situation as the OP so I am just speaking theoretically as the lower drive spouse in my marriage. I'd consider myself solidly MD though if I had to label it.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

I don't often disagree with MEM11363, but this is one of those times.
I do not believe that "bad experiences with sex" is actually the issue for her.
I think it's far more likely that she:
- has mostly good (or at worst "neutral") experiences with sex
- is genuinely Low Desire and does not think about sex very often
- has other priorities: kids, house, job, ipad, netflex, whatever
- is sexually lazy because she can't see beyond her own LD to believe that sex really is a dealbreaker for ND (normal desire) people
- has been "trained" that he will just accept her withholding while sill meeting all of her important marital needs
- feels that since she is "nice" to him in other ways, this offsets the sexless marriage

I believe this was what happened in my marriage. This pattern was so ingrained that countless "talks" and marriage counseling did nothing to break it. Only when I admitted to myself and to her that our marriage was certain TOAST over something so trivial as sex (in her mind) this is what snapped her out of the fog. It seems that she CAN actually enjoy sex twice per week, despite her natural LD. And I was happy to invest some efforts in other areas (some of her priorities) to help her conserve energy for our intimate times. We were only able to have this kind of negotiation when I got honest about the fact YES, sex is a dealbreaker for me (and most normal people). This was a revelation to her, and I owed her this last chance to save our marriage.

If in fact my wife were having bad experiences with sex, well I would have wanted to know about that. Seems that was not at all her issue.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> ,
> It's a sub type of the 'all about you' play. And it looks sort of like this.
> 
> I don't want you to do anything you truly don't want to do. It's obvious many/most of our sexual experiences are bad for you. Thing is - I need you to help me make them - not be bad for you. Can you help me understand how to do that?


This assumes objectivity in making the determination of what is good and what is not good. 

If you don't like broccoli no matter how good the cool is, it's still broccoli at the end.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In fact, the opposite is true here. If you make the experience GOOD, (a) he will want more (b) he will expect her to want more and (C.) She may actually want more physically. No-nos galore.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
I violently agree with the comment that your H has to be ok with - honestly grateful for - enthusiastic duty sex. 

And for clarification: 

Enthusiastic duty sex = 
1. I'm not really all that turned on and I'm not going to pretend otherwise.
2. I'm not going to pretend to orgasm AND 
3. I know you ARE really in the mood and it makes me happy to make you happy. 
4. I clearly radiate that - desire to please vibe - so there is no doubt n my partners mind as to whether or not I want to be doing this. 

For those of you who can't differentiate between this and pity sex, it's a huge difference. 

That said - the ONLY proper responses to this type offer are: 
1. Gratitude combined with a good faith effort to make the overall experience as positive as possible for your LD spouse without any hint of frustration they aren't as turned on as you, didn't orgasm, etc. 
2. Graciously declining in the hope that in the next few days they might be feeling more physical desire. 

Back to this question of making sure it's not a bad experience for an LD partner. 

That is a bigger deal than you might think. And I'll provide specifics - since - this is sort of the whole point of that type conversation. 

Affect:
Never realized how important this was until a TAM poster said: I feel like the puppy dog that is dry humping the leg of my owners friend. The friend is embarrassed and a bit put off but too polite to say anything. 

Expressing a much higher degree of arousal than your partner is often very unhelpful to your cause. 

Pacing: 
Much of the stuff that feels good once someone is turned on, feels bad when done before they ARE turned on. If your pacing is too fast, no amount of technique will save you. 

Conditioned responses: 
This is why a lot of positive, agenda free non sexual contact is so damn important. This combined with patience is how to take an LD partner from neutral to warm. 

Technique: 
All I'm going to say about this is - there are two games which are immensely helpful in this area. 

I touch - you touch. 
And
Better one - better two. 

In the former I ask you two touch me (or kiss me or ...) exactly how you want me to touch/kiss etc. you. 

In the latter game, I do two different things - asking better one or better two. Like how the eye doctor finds the prescription for your glasses. 

But here's the thing. If you get affect, pacing or conditioned response wrong - that is likely not fixable through technique. 








kag123 said:


> The issue he might run into is that she may not be able to give him a concrete answer to that question.
> 
> If you are LD and your body just isn't responding to sex like the HD partners does, it's never going to be as enjoyable for you as it is to them. That has little or nothing to do with what the HD partner does (or does not do). You just aren't going to desire sex that often.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tommy,

You handled your situation the same way I would have. 

But - there's a reason - people often find me helpful. I read pretty carefully. Did you catch the bit where the OP mentioned that he believes that his wife NEVER orgasms. Maybe never has had an orgasm. Doesn't masturbate. Etc. 

That my man is a huge 'tell'. Typically - if a woman NEVER orgasms - that means the physical aspect of the experience is problematic for her. 

And I'm just here to say that - somehow Talk - made the choice to tolerate totally one sided sexual encounters - early on. And then just kept going. 

He has sort of skipped over the part where - fearing this would be a deal breaker for her - he let it go until she was financially dependent on him and NOW he's pushing hard. Not saying that was a conscious choice. It was however a choice. 










tommyr said:


> I don't often disagree with MEM11363, but this is one of those times.
> I do not believe that "bad experiences with sex" is actually the issue for her.
> I think it's far more likely that she:
> - has mostly good (or at worst "neutral") experiences with sex
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Kag,
> I violently agree with the comment that your H has to be ok with - honestly grateful for - enthusiastic duty sex.
> 
> And for clarification:
> ...


I have a problem with your response to KAG as well.

I get your point; that the HD is required to make sex as good as possible for the LD. This is very true and should never be overlooked.

However, this seems to imply that sex can always be made as good for the LD as it is for the HD. That if this is done, the LD partner will no longer be LD. If the sex is made this good for the LD (if optimal technique is employed), they will magically become HD.

When my wife goes to the gym, afterwards she feels great and is always glad she went (and this is not an analogy, it really is about my wife going to the gym). However, getting her out the door to go to the gym continues to require a crowbar despite the fact that it always turns out to something that she is very happy she did. Let's say that she has responsive desire when it comes to going to the gym. No matter how good the experience was the last time, she wants no part of it this time.

Similarly, stories of women enjoying sex and having wonderful orgasms when they do have sex and still not wanting to do it again abound. No matter how good orgasms are, that doesn't mean that everyone wants to have them all the time.

In Kag's case, it sounds like she'd have great sex if she only had it every other week. Does this mean that the only proper response for her husband is to only have sex once every other week?

My wife finds giving me oral sex very satisfying. Am I to refuse to let her do this only if the experience is as good for her as it is for me? (although it may well be, depending on how one measures "good").

I understand that "bad" sex is bad, but I think that what we're talking about in (in Kag's case at least) isn't "bad" sex, just sex that doesn't result in an orgasm for her. In her case I'd recommend a compromise where some occasions are spent maximizing Kag's pleasure and others focus more on her husband's.

Sure, one should do all they can to make sex as good as it can be for their partner. However, this isn't going to magically negate the "needs gap". It is entirely appropriate for the LD partner to engage in enthusiastic duty sex from time to time because they care about the needs of their partner. It is also a huge mistake for the HD partner to require that their LD spouse truly share the exact same enthusiasm that they do at all times.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

I am genuinely confused. Where did either KAG or I imply that sex can be made as good for the LD as it is for the HD?

Because typically it cannot. It is very strange. I am writing as clearly and precisely as possible - and yet - somehow people are interpreting my statements in a manner that is completely at odds with their intent. 

My viewpoint is that as the HD it's important to make sure that it isn't a 'bad' experience for the LD. 

And a big part of that is not merely tolerating honest feedback but soliciting it. And encouraging it - meaning - say: thank you for telling me that. 

Reread what I wrote and tell me specifically what you disagree with. 




Buddy400 said:


> I have a problem with your response to KAG as well.
> 
> I get your point; that the HD is required to make sex as good as possible for the LD. This is very true and should never be overlooked.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amd BTW - KAG specifically said she does give her H enthusiastic duty sex. She is already doing exactly what B2 does for you....




Buddy400 said:


> I have a problem with your response to KAG as well.
> 
> I get your point; that the HD is required to make sex as good as possible for the LD. This is very true and should never be overlooked.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Yes. That is true. And I agree with KAG that she doesn't know what he could do to make her want it MORE. 

BUT - every LD person - can tell you what if any parts of their sex life feel bad. Doesn't matter if it's the pre foreplay, the foreplay the act itself or the afterwards. 

So my approach to sex with M2 is best described as: First, do no harm. 

Amazing how effective that is. 

Consider that - it's obvious to M2 that I want to make it as good as possible for her. Every bit as obvious that if anything feels bad, awkward, sensitive - that I WANT to know. 

I realize that it sounds very unsexy to say this - but I've said it enough for M2 to KNOW I mean it. 

"I accept that it isn't as good for you as for me. Wish that weren't so. But it is. If it is 'bad' for you, tell me. Because I'm not ok with that. With doing something to you - that feels bad."

Observe a discrete exchange. 
M2: Sorry babe, but my nipples are sensitive tonight
Me: Thanks for telling me (while Gently rolling her over)
M2: What are you doing
Me: Compliance is not optional (as I start massaging her back)
M2: hmmmm - that is so nice

A bit later she rolls back over and then starts doing stuff to me. The point is - that - instead of being defensive or sulky or expressing disappointment at her lack of - response - I do something nice for her. 





john117 said:


> This assumes objectivity in making the determination of what is good and what is not good.
> 
> If you don't like broccoli no matter how good the cool is, it's still broccoli at the end.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I understand that "bad" sex is bad...


 @Buddy400 you need to watch that "Cars" movie where Lightning McQueen learns from an old timer that you sometimes have to "turn right to go left!"

Sex is the same way, but in that you have to be really "bad to make it good!" You know like when your wife is not in the mood, but she is willing to accommodate... this is generally a good time say something to really make her angry, then hand her a violet wand so she can take out her frustrations on you. 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Reread what I wrote and tell me specifically what you disagree with.


I went back to see how I could have misinterpreted what you said.

I started with " I violently agree with......."

Whoops! I initially read that as "violently *dis*agree"

I guess my brain just had a hard time with "violently" and "agree" right next to each other.

To quote Emily Litella, "Never Mind"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

Thanks for explaining. I will drop usage of that phrase. Agree that I'm using the words in a manner that is the exact opposite of normal usage. 

I'd rather my prose be stodgy but clear, than clever but easily misinterpreted by a quick reader. 




Buddy400 said:


> I went back to see how I could have misinterpreted what you said.
> 
> I started with " I violently agree with......."
> 
> ...


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

kag123 said:


> The only solution in my mind is for my H to be OK with enthusiastic duty sex. And *to know I am doing it for him from a loving place*, but he can't expect me to always be as into it as he is.



In my way of looking at things, that -- enthusiasm from a loving place -- would make all the difference in the world. It's the difference between feeling loved and engaged with a partner in navigating and living life, vs. feeling used, unworthy, and unloved.

Your husband is fortunate to have you, should you find yourselves in such a predicament.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@TooMuchTalk, 

I think you've received good advice on ways to improve the sexless situation with your wife. You mentioned having given it your all but before considering divorce, I think you should really take the suggestions to heart. 

The sex in your marriage may be lacking in many ways but does your wife take care of your otherwise? I ask this question because although I do believe whole heartedly in the Carpe Diem approach to life (enjoy today for tomorrow is promised to no one), I think you should weigh your wife's good traits heavily against the bad. Parkinson's disease is a progressive illness with no known cure. The drugs on the market today work to minimize the symptoms by 'tricking' the dopamine receptors in the body. The body over time builds tolerance to those drugs making them less effective, sometimes useless. You may end up being one of the lucky one's who manages the symptoms well for the remainder of your life or...maybe not. Knowing this, it may be difficult to find another partner willing to date/marry someone with Parkinson's. I'm not saying to stay in an unhappy marriage but in your case, divorce is a decision that requires deep consideration of not just the here and now, but of your future well being.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,

This is where I do believe that - folks - have the polarity totally wrong. They look at this situation backwards. 

I think it's kind of aggressive to say - fvck me or I'm leaving you. Not saying it's wrong - just aggressive. 

Better to say what's true: Clearly you consider this act - unimportant. I'm outsourcing going forward. We don't need to discuss it any further. 

I wouldn't stay married to someone who demanded that I be celibate. Because that is a very controlling and unloving thing to do. 




Lila said:


> @TooMuchTalk,
> 
> I think you've received good advice on ways to improve the sexless situation with your wife. You mentioned having given it your all but before considering divorce, I think you should really take the suggestions to heart.
> 
> The sex in your marriage may be lacking in many ways but does your wife take care of your otherwise? I ask this question because although I do believe whole heartedly in the Carpe Diem approach to life (enjoy today for tomorrow is promised to no one), I think you should weigh your wife's good traits heavily against the bad. Parkinson's disease is a progressive illness with no known cure. The drugs on the market today work to minimize the symptoms by 'tricking' the dopamine receptors in the body. The body over time builds tolerance to those drugs making them less effective, sometimes useless. You may end up being one of the lucky one's who manages the symptoms well for the remainder of your life or...maybe not. Knowing this, it may be difficult to find another partner willing to date/marry someone with Parkinson's. I'm not saying to stay in an unhappy marriage but in your case, divorce is a decision that requires deep consideration of not just the here and now, but of your future well being.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Lila,
> 
> This is where I do believe that - folks - have the polarity totally wrong. They look at this situation backwards.
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying Mem. I also think many people see things through a very narrow lens and focus so much of their energy on one thing that that fail to see the larger picture from their personal perspective, specifically the pitfalls. My post is simply to serve as a reminder to the OP to step back, see the possible risks associated with staying in the marriage versus leaving it, and after weighing the pros/cons, come to a decision based on his best options. 

The OP's story reminded me of my father's brother. According to my dad, his brother divorced his wife of 30+years because of the sex. I think he was cheating but that's never been confirmed. He happily dated around for 3 or 4 years when he was diagnosed with MS. The woman he was dating at the time frankly told him she was not cut out to be a nurse and bolted. His kids wanted nothing to do with him and his ex-wife (my aunt by marriage) laughed when he called to tell her his situation. He died a lonely man a couple of years later from liver cancer. Were the 3 or 4 years of sex on demand worth it to him? Maybe, I don't know, but I do know that he never expected the MS and he surely never thought he would deal with such an awful illness without his family's loving support.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,
If someone had told me - that the last time I'd have intercourse would be shy of my 49th birthday - I would have been mortified. 

And I seriously think that M2 was genuinely afraid I'd walk - over that. It never even crossed my mind to do so. She has a chronic medical issue - not her fault. In sickness and in health means what it says. But I wouldn't accept a situation where a life partner wasn't willing to make an effort to satisfy my most important love language - AND - simultaneously asserted the 'exclusivity clause'. 

And just for clarity sake. When it was obvious that M2 had serious anxiety about the pain of intercourse I told her we were done. She has offered a few times since to 'give it a shot' and I just say thanks but I am fine. Because that condition can become bad enough to destroy a woman's quality of life. Lots of women who have it - get to the point where they have constant pain down there. Walking hurts. Sitting hurts. Everything hurts. I have zero interest in rubbing against sensitive skin that is packed with nerves and already somewhat painful. 

So yes - we work around that. And I never have and never will mention outsourcing - due to that. 

Outsourcing is to solely an option for addressing either a genuine case of sexual aversion OR a deep rooted level of partner indifference. 

But I would absolutely rather die alone - than stay with someone who expected/demanded that I be 'all in' when they were not. 





Lila said:


> I understand what you're saying Mem. I also think many people see things through a very narrow lens and focus so much of their energy on one thing that that fail to see the larger picture from their personal perspective, specifically the pitfalls. My post is simply to serve as a reminder to the OP to step back, see the possible risks associated with staying in the marriage versus leaving it, and after weighing the pros/cons, come to a decision based on his best options.
> 
> The OP's story reminded me of my father's brother. According to my dad, his brother divorced his wife of 30+years because of the sex. I think he was cheating but that's never been confirmed. He happily dated around for 3 or 4 years when he was diagnosed with MS. The woman he was dating at the time frankly told him she was not cut out to be a nurse and bolted. His kids wanted nothing to do with him and his ex-wife (my aunt by marriage) laughed when he called to tell her his situation. He died a lonely man a couple of years later from liver cancer. Were the 3 or 4 years of sex on demand worth it to him? Maybe, I don't know, but I do know that he never expected the MS and he surely never thought he would deal with such an awful illness without his family's loving support.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

But it's not just the sex, I'm finding out, it's also the intimacy. I yearn for it, to feel loved and wanted, to be held or to cuddle. I didn't ask to feel like this, it is what it is. 

For the past month or so we've had sex daily and even two to three times in a day and I haven't even had to initiate, she just asks if I want some. I had a long talk with her about it and she has been very compliant since. The problem I now find is that the sex is lacking without the intimacy or the reciprocation, it's empty. At first, it didn't matter because I finally wasn't getting rejected, but now, it does and I really resent it.

The rejections are way down. My love language is physical touch and that rejection is brutal. One way I've dealt with the rejection, is to not put myself in a place to be rejected. All that seems to have accomplished is to push me away, I don't want this anymore, I want out of this viscous cycle. 

Her love language seems to be acts of service. We each scored the lowest on each others language. She's not willing to do IC or MC and says it's not anybodies business but ours. She won't read anything on her own either and only reads a little when I badger her about it. Not sure if she finished the 5 love languages book, I got tired of checking.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,
The OP is far from blameless. He was happy to have very one sided sex as often as she would allow throughout the marriage. 

He never real forced the issue - and I sure as heck don't mean forcing the issue of frequency. I mean he never achieved true intimacy. Never got way inside her head to find out what the experience was really like for her. 

Doesn't know why it's bad for her. Why she does the absolute bare minimum. 

Not saying he doesn't love her. Am saying he doesn't seem to really understand her. 

Focusing on frequency instead of comprehension is dangerous and typically disastrous. 




Lila said:


> I understand what you're saying Mem. I also think many people see things through a very narrow lens and focus so much of their energy on one thing that that fail to see the larger picture from their personal perspective, specifically the pitfalls. My post is simply to serve as a reminder to the OP to step back, see the possible risks associated with staying in the marriage versus leaving it, and after weighing the pros/cons, come to a decision based on his best options.
> 
> The OP's story reminded me of my father's brother. According to my dad, his brother divorced his wife of 30+years because of the sex. I think he was cheating but that's never been confirmed. He happily dated around for 3 or 4 years when he was diagnosed with MS. The woman he was dating at the time frankly told him she was not cut out to be a nurse and bolted. His kids wanted nothing to do with him and his ex-wife (my aunt by marriage) laughed when he called to tell her his situation. He died a lonely man a couple of years later from liver cancer. Were the 3 or 4 years of sex on demand worth it to him? Maybe, I don't know, but I do know that he never expected the MS and he surely never thought he would deal with such an awful illness without his family's loving support.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Are you venting or asking for help?




Slow Hand said:


> But it's not just the sex, I'm finding out, it's also the intimacy. I yearn for it, to feel loved and wanted, to be held or to cuddle. I didn't ask to feel like this, it is what it is.
> 
> For the past month or so we've had sex daily and even two to three times in a day and I haven't even had to initiate, she just asks if I want some. I had a long talk with her about it and she has been very compliant since. The problem I now find is that the sex is lacking without the intimacy or the reciprocation, it's empty. At first, it didn't matter because I finally wasn't getting rejected, but now, it does and I really resent it.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Amd BTW - KAG specifically said she does give her H enthusiastic duty sex. She is already doing exactly what B2 does for you....


Enthusiastic duty sex? 

Isn't that an oxymoron of sorts? 

It does wonders physically but if it's one sided it does little to help the relationship.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> Yes. That is true. And I agree with KAG that she doesn't know what he could do to make her want it MORE.
> 
> ...


The difference is not in the methodology of the encounter as you described. The difference is wanting an encounter vs not wanting an encounter, period. Regardless of what the encounter looks like.

Think broccoli.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Are you venting or asking for help?


My bad, I'm venting/sharing. :smile2:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
That analogy - broccoli - is interesting. Because it speaks solely to the mechanics of the experience. But sex is half mechanics and half spirit. 

I get the sense that M2 feels about the same way about half of our encounters as I do about going to church with her. I signed up to take care of her. Sending her off to church - by herself - doesn't fit with that promise. So I happily do this thing that is solely for her benefit. 

So I find Kags oxymoron - to be dead on. It's a perfectly accurate depiction of events. 






john117 said:


> Enthusiastic duty sex?
> 
> Isn't that an oxymoron of sorts?
> 
> It does wonders physically but if it's one sided it does little to help the relationship.


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

Since I’ve gotten so much more good advice and information than I could hope for, I felt obligated to post again and try to clear a few things up, as well as ask for additional advice.

First, CLEARLY I am no saint, and do share a great deal of responsibility in this situation. I have been agonizing over this issue for YEARS (thus all the books, 100’s of hours reading TAM, dozens of couple’s therapy sessions with multiple therapists, etc.). Am I REALLY going to file - NO, and that’s definitive (for now), mainly because I’ve gotten several good ideas herein to try. Thank you all once again, I was running out of things to try. Let me clear up a couple of things:

Do I worry that a divorced 40-something guy with two kids (who will always be in my life, no matter what) with a potentially degenerative disease like Parkinson’s won’t be, let’s say, highly attractive on the single’s market? Sure, that’s a given. BUT, I’ve spent enough of my life worrying. As someone much smarter than I (my wife) once reminded me: “Any one of use could get hit by that proverbial bus tomorrow.” NOBODY know’s their “sell by” date for sure.

What about my desire ramping up due to the meds? I don’t KNOW that for certain, but suspect it is likely. However, I also know that my HD self was always there, from the beginning. I just kept it hidden (and as stated, taking care of the “issue” with occasional porn, masturbation, etc. kept things OK for most of our marriage). Of course I also had those time consuming hobbies and other outside (the marriage) interests often suggested. So, yes, my “desire” has ramped up, but not only because of side effects of the Rx’s, rather it’s mostly due to my realizing that bus might just be coming for me sooner than I think. That Canadian guy (Michael J Fox) once said that PD is like standing in the middle of the road, looking at the bus coming towards you. You can see the driver is not paying attention. You know it’s going to run you over if you don’t move, but your feet are stuck in cement. You know you just might not be able to get your body to move in time. I’d say it’s really more a sense of I’ve been missing something, and realize I can’t see the bus just yet - maybe it’s just around the corner, or maybe it’s a hundred miles away. I want desperately for what I’m missing to happen with my wife. You don’t share so many years (and 2 kids), with all the joys and heartaches that accompanied them, without building a truly lasting emotional bond.

So, did I pull a “bait and switch” on my wife, now suddenly becoming HD after all these years? I’ll let those of you who choose to claim such do so - I feel no guilt in that regard. Besides, are we REALLY talking about “HD” (that was my mistake to use that term)? I’m talking about once a WEEK being the END goal of where I’d like us to be. Am I being unreasonable? Please let me know if you feel strongly, either way!

The more important point for me personally is was I selfishly satisfying myself with “one sided sex” all these years without ever concerning myself with my wife’s enjoyment. I don’t think so, and here’s why: I really do try to pry out from my wife little “hints” as to what she likes and what she doesn’t. I do know many of them. Many are clearly still a mystery. I pose this question to any women out there who would be so kind as to reply: For a woman who really doesn’t “know” her own body all that well, meaning no masturbation, no exploring fingers, plain and simple no real interest in any of that, is it easy (or even possible) to have an orgasm during PIV sex? How would you tell your partner what to do, if you don’t really know that yourself? I would be willing to do just about anything any of you could think of (or suggest) to try to get my wife “there”. She’s just not receptive to much, and still, after all these years together, feels very uncomfortable even talking about “that stuff”. Often I’m told by her to “get moving”, meaning she’s had enough and it’s starting to get uncomfortable (yes, we use loads of lube), long before I’m finished.

The bottom line is, she’s really trying hard to help fix this problem. She know’s it’s a HUGE issue for me, but I don’t think she really understands exactly WHY it is such a “deal breaker”. I think that’s probably natural if you’re a person for whom sex really isn’t all that important. I think she’d be happy with very infrequent (but “good”) sex, if I could just get my head out of my A$$ and stop all the “sex, sex, sex, that’s all you ever think about. You think all of your problems can be fixed with having better sex…”. So, if I revert to the happy hubby, doing all the stuff Bad Santa suggests, which I’ve done over the years, show my affection regularly in other ways (kissing, hugging, cuddling, etc.) and only initiate sex when I’m sure she’s receptive, my wife would see our marriage as near perfect.

The problem is this: If I do that, I end up miserable. I end up internalizing my frustration, which eventually boils over into an angry “tantrum” . Is that unreasonable? Probably. The thing is there’s not much I can do to stop it (well, short of the “outsourcing” idea, which as expected, my wife didn’t really mean, and I’m not too keen on anyway!).

So, my REAL choices are:

1)Stay, be miserable and internalize my frustration with my needs not being met, which will lead to periodic tantrums after which everybody is unhappy.
2)Stay, but figure out some way to NOT be miserable by:
a) Outsourcing
b) More (or more time consuming) outside distractions (sports, clubs, restoring old cars - something).​3)Leave, taking my chances. Things might well turn out much worse, making what I left seem like pure heaven.
4)Try to FIX this. But does that mean I need to fix my wife, or me (or BOTH)?​Suggestions?


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Your goal of sex one per week is completely reasonable. You said that was your frequency earlier in the marriage. It does not at all sound like a "bait and switch" nor would I call you HD based on that frequency.

Also, I do not believe your sexual performance is making it a "bad experience" for your wife. So long as you remain GGG (good, giving, game) and keep communicating, trying to be aware of what makes it better for her, that is about all you can do. You can't really control the outcome, she needs to take some active part in reaching her orgasm.

Of your choices, #1 (stay and be miserable) is not really an option so strike that from your list entirely.
#2b (stay and distract yourself) is actually the same as option #1 because you cannot "distract away" your normal and healthy sex drive. The main option you have is to communicate your intent to follow her advice (outsourcing) and hope that this point-of-no-return conversation will jolt her out of the fog and lead to #4 (fix it).

Go talk to her, get honest. Don't blame her, it is nobody's fault. But be clear that you can't continue as before, let her know exactly why. Tell her you have run out of options and must now accept her offer to "go downtown", but before you act on that, ask her "one last time" to meet your completely reasonable needs of sex once per week. Ask if there is anything you can do (either inside or outside the bedroom) to make that work for her.
Then listen to her response, and act accordingly.

This is NOT a bluff, not brinkmanship, not an ultimatum. You are getting honest that long term sexless marriage WILL FAIL. You are giving her a final chance to play a role in preserving her monogamous marriage.

I am not just an armchair quarterback throwing out free advice to strangers. I have had this talk with my own wife. That was 8 years ago and we have been having sex 2x per week ever since.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TooMuchTalk said:


> *The bottom line is, she’s really trying hard to help fix this problem. * She know’s it’s a HUGE issue for me, but I don’t think she really understands exactly WHY it is such a “deal breaker”. I think that’s probably natural if you’re a person for whom sex really isn’t all that important. I think she’d be happy with very infrequent (but “good”) sex, if I could just get my head out of my A$$ and stop all the “sex, sex, sex, that’s all you ever think about. You think all of your problems can be fixed with having better sex…”. So, if I revert to the happy hubby, doing all the stuff Bad Santa suggests, which I’ve done over the years, show my affection regularly in other ways (kissing, hugging, cuddling, etc.) and only initiate sex when I’m sure she’s receptive, my wife would see our marriage as near perfect.


Not joking around here, *THIS* is a critical element. I have found that I can channel my desire for my wife into an exercise that improves her sexual self confidence. Think of duty sex almost as the ultimate shît test, in which wives want to play around with you and see how you really feel about her. You want to encourage her to play around with you sexually and help her improve her confidence to do so even when she is doing it just for you while she has no innate desire or arousal for herself. If you have been in a relationship where you have always focussed on her needs, allowing her to please you is NOT a form of selfishness. 

You want to know what pleases your wife even though she has no inherent desire to masturbate or self explore? You allow her to discover herself through your desire! Odds are she will like it very much when you are aroused, and give her some space to play around with you in which you are not being pushy and demanding for her to just jump on top and let you inside. Let her decide when and if she jumps on top! You will discover what you have been missing if you let this happen!
*
Just let her know you are aroused and do not be pushy:*
#1 time, she may just give you a hand job.
#2 she may pout that you are so needy, but just insist that you desire her and blame her for being so darn hot that she got you aroused!
#3 she will start to enjoy you attributing your arousal to her.
#4 she will start to enjoy her ability to have more control with your arousal.
#5 she will start to become curious of new ways to play with you.
#6 she will gradually build enough confidence to try something different.
#7 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...odds are through that whole process she will reject you, but remain extraordinary confident that her rejections actually reflect her lack of self confidence that she can still please you if she is not aroused herself (she may have anxiety that you might force her to become aroused, so do NOT do this, and reassure her you will not try unless she asks). So this is an opportunity to build her self confidence when she experiences you still being happy with her and she starts to discover the joy of new ways to easily make you happy just because she is awesomely hot and beautiful. 

I'll share something my wife did to me! I recently got her a new vibrator, and I do not ask her any questions about it, NOR do I insist she use it. I encourage her to play with it. So she was leaving on a trip and we were having sex. She reached into her nightstand and got the vibrator and jumped on top of me. She told me she want me to feel her have multiple orgasms while I was inside but that I was NOT allowed to cum. She proceeded to show off what she could do. Then she handed me the vibrator as she ran out the door to leave for her trip and challenged me to fantasize about that with her new vibrator while she was gone. HOLY COW!!!!!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TooMuchTalk said:


> The bottom line is, she’s really trying hard to help fix this problem.


Her trying really hard should be enough to make this work.

What is she doing that constitutes "really trying"?


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

THANK Mr. Bad!!! I knew you'd come though for me (and that was WAY better then one of your highly enjoyable jokes!). I guess we're moving slowly towards step one. About 2 years ago I bought a mini-Hitachi (read that the real plug-in version would be TOO powerful for someone not experienced using a vib). I guess I can laugh about this now... Her response was "Exactly WHERE is it you think I'm going to put that thing? Let me see you put it inside of YOURSELF first, then I'll try it!" I calmly explained to her it was for EXTERNAL use!

I've come to the conclusion that what I've done in the past clearly hasn't worked so it's time to try something new. It seems like Bad has a viable plan. It's certainly a hell of a lot more likely to actually work than the stupid 180 (ok, sorry for those of you for whom it worked - just not applicable in every situation)!

A say that "she's really trying" because she KNOWS this is important for me, for US. She just doesn't know any more than I do how to fix things. I learned (the hard way!) that it isn't really any help, but rather VERY counterproductive to even hint that there's something wrong with her. She did get just about every hormone test possible, and all looks good there. This isn't a physical or biochemical issue for her, it's a mental and emotional one.

She told me recently about a couple of "strange" guys staring at her in the gym. "One of them even came over to use the machine next to me and started TALKING to me for some reason!" Ok, maybe she's really not that totally clueless, but I did see a big smile when I said "Uhm, dear, they were CHECKING OUT the hot new babe!". That's what I just don't get. My wife is VERY good looking (and it's not just my opinion). She just doesn't think so, doesn't have that confidence most women seem to have (or maybe it's just an act most women put on?).

I've done enough to tear down what little self esteem she's had by focusing on this issue the past couple of years. I guess I have a fairly long road ahead to build it back up. I think I have a plan!!! Thanks all of you so much. I was really hoping I'd get a reply from "her pinkness" though! Ok, stupid comment initially on my part about her 10k. Yup, I can be a big a$$ hole sometimes, the wife and kids will verify that. What I really MEANT to say is that it is truly amazing to me how much TIME many of you are willing to devote to this site to actually HELP others. I'm truly blown away by all the advice I've received. The next new Internet phenom: Crowd sourced psychology!

Just one more question though: Where in the heck to you find those 40% of BBandB coupons Bad Santa???


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

OP I didnt read any of the replies in this thread. And Im not going to address your sex life.

I am going to give you the only advice I hope you actually listen to in this thread.

If you havent already PLEASE start IC for your Parkinson's. My dad was diagnosed fairly young, never really dealt with it, and ruined the last few years he had left on this earth. He died about 10 years ago. PLEASE get some IC to help with this and PLEASE be cognizant of not abusing your Sinemet.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Absolutely priceless 

A real world example of how genuine playfulness - is - utterly irresistible. 




badsanta said:


> Not joking around here, *THIS* is a critical element. I have found that I can channel my desire for my wife into an exercise that improves her sexual self confidence. Think of duty sex almost as the ultimate shît test, in which wives want to play around with you and see how you really feel about her. You want to encourage her to play around with you sexually and help her improve her confidence to do so even when she is doing it just for you while she has no innate desire or arousal for herself. If you have been in a relationship where you have always focussed on her needs, allowing her to please you is NOT a form of selfishness.
> 
> You want to know what pleases your wife even though she has no inherent desire to masturbate or self explore? You allow her to discover herself through your desire! Odds are she will like it very much when you are aroused, and give her some space to play around with you in which you are not being pushy and demanding for her to just jump on top and let you inside. Let her decide when and if she jumps on top! You will discover what you have been missing if you let this happen!
> *
> ...


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Toomuchtalk


First, you can't fix your wife, she can't fix you. Neither of you need fixing, your are who you are. Doesn't make either of you wrong, just different. 

On another thought, LD's aggravate me when they complain about their HD partner always talking about sex. Let me help you out, when you withhold sex for weeks at the time that's probably all that's on your HD partners mind. Thus they talk about it more often which in turn makes you angry. Just give them some, they'll quiet down for a few days.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This here - is likely one of the most interesting topics on TAM.

We have acquaintances who talk endlessly about food. I find them terribly boring. M2 does as well though, she's too polite to say so. 

End of dinner at a new restaurant we have a brief exchange goes like this:
Me: 10 scale, food, service, ambience 
M2: appetizer 7, my entree 8, your entree a 6, service 8, ambience 9.
Me: My entree was so not a 6, your just down rating it because your jealous. Other than the fact my entree was an 8, I agree with the ratings. 

Done - conversation over. That type scoring means we might or might not go back. It was good, didn't blow us away. 

A bit like that with sex. There are brief conversations about likes and dislikes. About frequency - primarily M2 confirming that I'm happy or at least ok with it. 

M2 hates graphic sex talk - other than - when she's on final approach to the rapture. Then she LIKES IT. 

Learned that in our first few months together. She absolutely hates explicitly sexual behavior in the normal course of day to day life. Groping, sexual comments, etc. Total turn off. I just don't do any of that. And I haven't since being told so. 

But here's the magic - dominance is totally different. She likes that and responds very well to it. 

For example:
I can't wait to lick your nipples later: would be an epic fail
Vs. 
Think I'll go for a run, take a shower and then my wife. (Is close to a 100% success rate). 






tornado said:


> Toomuchtalk
> 
> 
> First, you can't fix your wife, she can't fix you. Neither of you need fixing, your are who you are. Doesn't make either of you wrong, just different.
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I don't want you to do anything you truly don't want to do. It's obvious many/most of our sexual experiences are bad for you. Thing is - I need you to help me make them - not be bad for you. Can you help me understand how to do that?


This sounds like asking your Muslim friend which brand of beer he wants you to buy in for his visit to the house.

You are trying to make something better that the other person isn't interested in doing anyway. The only way you really make it "not bad" is you stop asking them to participate.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Absolutely priceless
> 
> A real world example of how genuine playfulness - is - utterly irresistible.


Only to someone with an interest in playing the game. If you aren't interested in the game, playful people are often just irritating, except when they're infuriating!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Sawney Beane said:


> Only to someone with an interest in playing the game. If you aren't interested in the game, playful people are often just irritating, except when they're infuriating!


*I can still work with that! *Although it can be a bit more challenging, I'll actually let my wife know that she is still incredibly "doable" when she is furious!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

badsanta said:


> *I can still work with that! *Although it can be a bit more challenging, I'll actually let my wife know that she is still incredibly "doable" when she is furious!


Furious, maybe. How about when the irritating behaviour just triggers a cold desire to be anywhere except where you are. You've become like a cold caller - they're past shouting down the phone at you, they just put the phone down and block your number.


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

MEM11363 said:


> M2 hates graphic sex talk - other than - when she's on final approach to the rapture. Then she LIKES IT.
> 
> Learned that in our first few months together. She absolutely hates explicitly sexual behavior in the normal course of day to day life. Groping, sexual comments, etc. Total turn off. I just don't do any of that. And I haven't since being told so.


Same situation for me. Seems like we're getting closer to the ENDLESS discussion of "responsive desire"! It's a bottomless pit - so I won't even go there.

What I like about badsanta's approach and why I think my wife will be "responsive" (oops!) to it is the FUN aspect. For my wife and I this process has been anything BUT fun. When sex becomes a chore, I can certainly understand not wanting to have anything to do with it.



MEM11363 said:


> But here's the magic - dominance is totally different. She likes that and responds very well to it.


Love to try that - going VERY slowly though. She's certainly indicated some inclination for me to be a little more assertive, but I also have to temper that with the need to be aware of how she reacts to different stimuli. I think the first "baby step" might be to try a blindfold (nice soft scarf or something). Maybe I can get her to watch the 50 Shades movie, despite how stupid I've heard it is (haven't seen it). This starts approaching an area where I would need a lot of reassurance from her that she's OK.

It doesn't go over well to open that Amazon box containing a vibe with multiple "tentacles", LED flashing lights, playing the Japanese national anthem, etc. for someone who's already self-conscious about the whole topic.

I think I'm in for about 6 months of trying hard to build my wife's confidence up AND trying to put the "fun" back into things, VERY slowly. If I push too hard, we'll end up in a worse place than we are now.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Not joking around here, *THIS* is a critical element. I have found that I can channel my desire for my wife into an exercise that improves her sexual self confidence. Think of duty sex almost as the ultimate shît test, in which wives want to play around with you and see how you really feel about her. You want to encourage her to play around with you sexually and help her improve her confidence to do so even when she is doing it just for you while she has no innate desire or arousal for herself. If you have been in a relationship where you have always focussed on her needs, allowing her to please you is NOT a form of selfishness.
> 
> You want to know what pleases your wife even though she has no inherent desire to masturbate or self explore? You allow her to discover herself through your desire! Odds are she will like it very much when you are aroused, and give her some space to play around with you in which you are not being pushy and demanding for her to just jump on top and let you inside. Let her decide when and if she jumps on top! You will discover what you have been missing if you let this happen!
> *
> ...


You know, I have to hand it to you. 

I was reading through and with each sentence thinking...ugh, that would be so irritating! What is he talking about! 

Then you got to the point of "she may have anxiety that you may force her to be aroused". And I thought, yep. That's pretty much why I has a visceral reaction to your technique at first. 

I can tell you that my H places A LOT of emphasis on whether or not I am enjoying myself during an interaction. The thing is, he can't seem to wrap his head around the fact that I can and do enjoy myself _even when I am not aroused_. I've told him so. He's heard the words. He nods he understands. He just can't let it sink in. 

For him, me showing I enjoy myself = participating fully in all of the menu items and ending in O.

The result is that I can't relax because there is a bit of an air that I must be 100% into the experience as much as he is before it can be considered successful. 

That is a lot of pressure for someone who feels that they either don't have good control over their body (how do I instantly turn myself on?) and/or can't possibly match their partners drive. There's a lot of disappointment on the LD part when you feel you can't meet your partners desires.

Maybe if HE was more playful and relaxed it would change the whole dynamic?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

But - M2 - DOES have responsive desire. My complete acceptance of that - way back - is why we've always had a good to great sex life. 

I start to kiss her - and - like a switch she begins to get turned on. 

Or we wrestle - wrestling is a HUGE turn on for M2. The rules are skewed to adjust for our size difference. She can strike, scratch, bite (no skin breaking) - I don't strike. She can use any body part to strike - yes she has tried to head butt me. 

Winner gets to spank loser. 




TooMuchTalk said:


> Same situation for me. Seems like we're getting closer to the ENDLESS discussion of "responsive desire"! It's a bottomless pit - so I won't even go there.
> 
> What I like about badsanta's approach and why I think my wife will be "responsive" (oops!) to it is the FUN aspect. For my wife and I this process has been anything BUT fun. When sex becomes a chore, I can certainly understand not wanting to have anything to do with it.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *I can still work with that! *Although it can be a bit more challenging, I'll actually let my wife know that she is still incredibly "doable" when she is furious!


You have a bright future in sales. Please send me a resume


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Sawney Beane said:


> Furious, maybe. How about when the irritating behaviour just triggers a cold desire to be anywhere except where you are. *You've become like a cold caller* - they're past shouting down the phone at you, they just put the phone down and block your number.


*Ummm if you come across like a "cold caller" when trying to initiate sex with a spouse, I'd hang up my phone on you as well!*

...OMG, I bet I could get my wife to agree to having sex with me if I call her from Skype and pretend to be a salesman selling her my penis! 










_"....mam, with this new model, all you have to do is barely touch it, and I swear it will start granting you wishes like a genie in a bottle if you just keep barely touching it!"_

>

Badsanta


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This IS why the outsourcing conversation is the fastest path to the truth. 

Outsourcing - for pay - is not a risk to the marriage. It just isn't. 

All people hold somewhat - contradictory - positions in their heads. Might be that women are more comfortable expressing them - but regardless - they have them too. 

Normally when M2 does this - I just casually say: You look just like, heck girl you could be the damn twin of this woman who just recently said 'contradictory thing' to me. Then I just laugh. We aren't in charge of an ICBM missle silo - this stuff is - mostly just normal cognitive dissonance. 

But in this one area - I am firm on this point. Sex is either important AND generally the experience with me is at least ok. Or we need to accept that I'm ok - with other options. 

This conversation has probably arisen 3-4 times during our marriage. 

And FWIW I realize this is just a difficult situation all round. 

The good thing about it - is M2 actually agrees with that mindset. I think she sort of quietly thinks that tolerating a sexless marriage makes you a bltch. And she doesn't want to be married to someone who's her bltch. 

Doesn't mean she doesn't try every once in a long while - can't seem to help herself. Just means she would freak if I allowed that result. 

The difference between these two steps is massive:
1. paid outsourcing
2. initiating affairs to try and replace your spouse

One is something I do FOR ME, if you no longer wish a sexual relationship. 

Two is something I do that is both for me, and VERY DIRECTLY AGAINST MY PARTNER. 

There's no scenario where I do (2). 

But I wouldn't push on a string. And the OP has zero hope of an 'EMOTIONALLY SATISFYING SEX LIFE' without his wife's active cooperation. 





Sawney Beane said:


> This sounds like asking your Muslim friend which brand of beer he wants you to buy in for his visit to the house.
> 
> You are trying to make something better that the other person isn't interested in doing anyway. The only way you really make it "not bad" is you stop asking them to participate.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> But - M2 - DOES have responsive desire. My complete acceptance of that - way back - is why we've always had a good to great sex life.
> 
> I start to kiss her - and - like a switch she begins to get turned on.
> 
> ...


Curious, in all of our interactions, I never thought to ask you how many times M2 has won.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Far,

I think it's fair to first define 'winning'. M2 can't over power me. So she's never pinned/spanked me. 

A win for M2 is: she scuffs me up a bit - lands a few solid strikes etc... and prevents me from pinning her. The whole point of pinning her is to spank her. 

So if she doesn't gets pinned that's a win for her. If she does it's a win for me. 

I 'win' maybe 1/3 of the time. And for clarity sake she can always tap out by saying uncle, or saying she will do whatever I say for the next hour. 






farsidejunky said:


> Curious, in all of our interactions, I never thought to ask you how many times M2 has won.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TMT,

Need to emphasize a few things. It's important to M2 that I am happy with her as a life partner. That's a big deal to her. And she knows that sex is a big deal to 'most' men. And definitely this man. 

That doesn't mean she lacks agency or influence - she has both. Our frequency is a healthy compromise we both feel good about. 

But the key here is that she knows it's important TO ME, and makes a good faith effort to ensure I am happy. 

If your wife - henceforth T2, is not attracted to you in that way - she is going to lie, deny, gaslight and avoid you and this topic like the plague. 







TooMuchTalk said:


> Same situation for me. Seems like we're getting closer to the ENDLESS discussion of "responsive desire"! It's a bottomless pit - so I won't even go there.
> 
> What I like about badsanta's approach and why I think my wife will be "responsive" (oops!) to it is the FUN aspect. For my wife and I this process has been anything BUT fun. When sex becomes a chore, I can certainly understand not wanting to have anything to do with it.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

This is - the thing comes from trust. M2 says - XYZ is true. Absent contradicting behavior I accept that as fully true. 

Why we don't have the dynamic you describe. Thing is - lots of stuff I do for M2 makes her happy. Making her happy - MAKES ME HAPPY. So when she said that was true for her - IN BED - I believed it. 





kag123 said:


> You know, I have to hand it to you.
> 
> I was reading through and with each sentence thinking...ugh, that would be so irritating! What is he talking about!
> 
> ...


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

kag123 said:


> I can tell you that my H places A LOT of emphasis on whether or not I am enjoying myself during an interaction. The thing is, he can't seem to wrap his head around the fact that I can and do enjoy myself _even when I am not aroused_. I've told him so. He's heard the words. He nods he understands. He just can't let it sink in.
> 
> For him, me showing I enjoy myself = participating fully in all of the menu items and ending in O.
> 
> ...


YES!!! I have discovered this the hard way in my relationship. My wife has let me know on numerous occasions that she needs to enter a "mindful" state where she can block everything else out but me. Someone more cynical (and I'm pretty damn cynical myself) might say she's just fantasizing about being with someone else. I guess that really wouldn't matter at this point anyway. I don't really like the idea that it isn't ALWAYS good for her. I guess that's typical male insecurity talking. I'm just going to have to learn to deal with it though. My wife has, in fact, offered to "try" some new things, that would be (in my mind at least) mostly, if not exclusively for MY benefit. Ok, I sense the collective shaking of (female) heads about to explode into a chorus of "hey dumba$$, that's what you WANTED right? So, what the BLEEP is the BLEEPIN' problem with that! I guess it's a start from which to build into a place where she will feel more comfortable exploring her own sexuality. That's really the ONLY way I can "fix" us - this problem we've had for so long now. She is going to have to get to a place where she feels comfortable, confident, and SAFE from criticism.

I don't look at badsanta's recipe as, well, a recipe, but rather an outline for an idea. The idea, if I have it understood correctly is really to take the pressure (to perform, have that elusive "O", whatever) off and let things happen, then, gradually as the mutual comfort level increases try to introduce some new twists. If I read MEM's description of his (and M2's) wrestling matches correctly, that's THEIR form of gamesmanship. What works for badsanta (or MEM + M2) might not work for my wife and I, but doing nothing different has gotten us where we are - both unhappy for different reasons.

I'm going to take all this wonderful advice (and ideas) and come up with a plan. Probably one of the first steps will be to save about $1k and fire our MFT, after a couple more sessions. I'm not sure she would be on board with this new "plan" (which isn't yet a plan - maybe she could help with that?), but I don't want to spend another 10 sessions getting in touch with my base emotions and root causes for my actions. It's just TMT too-much-talk! Time for (cue Elvis) "a little less conversation please!" Thank you all once again...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TMT,
Deep sigh. You my man are indeed well named. Thing is - you are struggling with some stuff that is difficult because it is connected to ego. 

Let's begin at the beginning. Do you know why it's illegal for prison guards to have sex with inmates? 

The law is based on the concept of 'true consent'. So - the power dynamic in prison is so skewed, that it is not possible to know whether a prisoner is consenting - due to desire, fear or a mix of both. 

You had many years to address this - directly - when the power dynamic was - more equal. You chose not to do so. 

If you want to man up - you ought start with that question. Don't get me wrong. I totally get why the Parkinson's is a real catalyst for - addressing this. Carpe Diem takes on a whole new meaning in your situation. 

But - let me share some elemental stuff. M2 is the stronger person in our marriage. She just is - an incredibly determined - person. 

She also has excellent core values - AND a great sense of humor - so the gestalt works well for both of us. 

We are also a bit mismatched - in some areas I leave her in the dust - in others - vice versa. 

I can give you at least 3 reasons why our sex life could be dead. 
- Health (hers) specifically chronic inflammation - vulvodynia 
- Hormones (hers) menopause hit her hard a few years ago
- Skill differential (I'm GGG in bed, fully competent - she's a 1 percenter)

But - we have sex a couple times a week most weeks. And on a bad (health wise) week - at least once. 

Even if I had a giant tool (I don't - my equipment is proportional to my height and weight), it wouldn't help as we no longer have intercourse as that is painful for her. 

I'm decent looking but not exceptionally attractive....

Successful but not truly rich. 

So - why - does - M2 - gladly connect with me? 

I'll explain it - tomorrow - but it's best you think about this. And FWIW - the day to day is not driven by fear. M2 knows I love her, and she has a fair amount of latitude in these matters. So she isn't driven by fear....






TooMuchTalk said:


> YES!!! I have discovered this the hard way in my relationship. My wife has let me know on numerous occasions that she needs to enter a "mindful" state where she can block everything else out but me. Someone more cynical (and I'm pretty damn cynical myself) might say she's just fantasizing about being with someone else. I guess that really wouldn't matter at this point anyway. I don't really like the idea that it isn't ALWAYS good for her. I guess that's typical male insecurity talking. I'm just going to have to learn to deal with it though. My wife has, in fact, offered to "try" some new things, that would be (in my mind at least) mostly, if not exclusively for MY benefit. Ok, I sense the collective shaking of (female) heads about to explode into a chorus of "hey dumba$$, that's what you WANTED right? So, what the BLEEP is the BLEEPIN' problem with that! I guess it's a start from which to build into a place where she will feel more comfortable exploring her own sexuality. That's really the ONLY way I can "fix" us - this problem we've had for so long now. She is going to have to get to a place where she feels comfortable, confident, and SAFE from criticism.
> 
> I don't look at badsanta's recipe as, well, a recipe, but rather an outline for an idea. The idea, if I have it understood correctly is really to take the pressure (to perform, have that elusive "O", whatever) off and let things happen, then, gradually as the mutual comfort level increases try to introduce some new twists. If I read MEM's description of his (and M2's) wrestling matches correctly, that's THEIR form of gamesmanship. What works for badsanta (or MEM + M2) might not work for my wife and I, but doing nothing different has gotten us where we are - both unhappy for different reasons.
> 
> I'm going to take all this wonderful advice (and ideas) and come up with a plan. Probably one of the first steps will be to save about $1k and fire our MFT, after a couple more sessions. I'm not sure she would be on board with this new "plan" (which isn't yet a plan - maybe she could help with that?), but I don't want to spend another 10 sessions getting in touch with my base emotions and root causes for my actions. It's just TMT too-much-talk! Time for (cue Elvis) "a little less conversation please!" Thank you all once again...


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

Looking forward to hearing your explanation... Hope you'll surprise me, but I suspect I know what you have to say. Been there, done that - didn't work. Tried all the MMSLP, 180, BS. The only really useful bit was the working on me - helped ME. Didn't address the power dynamic as you call it because I really didn't care that much. I was enjoying life, had a highly paid job, lots of toys and hobbies, and frankly probably ignored my wife in the one area we're struggling with now. We did LOTS of amazing stuff together, lots of travel, in short we enjoyed each other, being with each other, and life in general. So, yeah, I suppose it is largely my fault I didn't address the issue then. It just didn't seem to matter so much. If that's my fault then I guess it's fair I have to figure out how to get us back on track. Make no mistake, my wife knows this is serious. I was so pissed after one of her "outsourcing" arguments that I took off, got a hotel, and actually thought about going that route for a while. I realized it would't help me feel better and would only further damage our relationship. I can't turn back the clock. The DeLorean and flux capacitor don't work - hell even hover boards (still) aren't real. Gotta live with what I've got TODAY. I know where I want to go with this, don't know if I can get there, but T2 (somehow seems appropriate, she'd give Arnold a fight) says she'll try. I don't have infinite time, and the past couple of years haven't worked. So, it's either try a completely different approach or give up and move on with our lives so we can each find happiness separately.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

kag123 said:


> *For him, me showing I enjoy myself = participating fully in all of the menu items and ending in O.*
> 
> The result is that I can't relax because there is a bit of an air that I must be 100% into the experience as much as he is before it can be considered successful.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, it boils down to lack of self confidence! Most men (the HD partner) are not confident enough to understand that a woman can simply enjoy pleasing her man. A lover with poor self confidence will need to see his woman reach orgasm to reassure himself that she is attracted and aroused by him. When this does not happen he assumes you are no longer attracted and aroused by everything he does, and he will begin doing everything possible to force it to happen to prove to himself that you still love him.

Now having said that @kag123 you can actually use his lack of self confidence to your advantage and start thinking of creative ways to have some fun with it. Just be ultra confident about it and have fun!

Challenge him to try and make you orgasm without taking any of your cloths off. Tell him "you really like to feel his strong arms wrap around you, hold you and push you to grind against him!" If he fails, he will not be too upset, because he will be happy you asked him to try something you might like. Besides it impossible to orgasm with your cloths still on isn't it. (My wife had her first multiple orgasms this way, that is why I know you might stand a chance to like this idea, and those are her words describing "what" she liked about it!)

>

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

In general, I have to agree that BadSanta's approach (incessant humor, fun) is definitely the right long-term attitude to a successful LD+HD (or LD+ND) marriage, infinitely superior to a constant stream of "firm talks" about sexual needs. But there is one very important element of the MMSLP/180/NMMNG approach that perhaps you have overlooked or made incorrect assumptions. 

The thing is this: does your wife truly understand that the current sexual frequency is a marriage ending dealbreaker for you? Is she clear on your target frequency of 1X per week? Have you ever point blank, unequivocally, just straight up told her this, in a way that you can literally see the light bulb click inside her head that that this is not simply "one more talk about sex" but is actually an irreversible fork in her road of life?

Your thread title suggests you've "Done everything but the leaving" however I think you owe her the chance to see your genuine intent to leave, and then allow her to decide that sex once per week is not worth keeping you.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tommyr said:


> In general, I have to agree that BadSanta's approach (incessant humor, fun) is definitely the right long-term attitude to a successful LD+HD (or LD+ND) marriage, infinitely superior to a constant stream of "firm talks" about sexual needs. But there is one very important element of the MMSLP/180/NMMNG approach that perhaps you have overlooked or made incorrect assumptions.
> 
> The thing is this: does your wife truly understand that the current sexual frequency is a marriage ending dealbreaker for you? Is she clear on your target frequency of 1X per week? Have you ever point blank, unequivocally, just straight up told her this, in a way that you can literally see the light bulb click inside her head that that this is not simply "one more talk about sex" but is actually an irreversible fork in her road of life?
> 
> Your thread title suggests you've "Done everything but the leaving" however I think you owe her the chance to see your genuine intent to leave, and then allow her to decide that sex once per week is not worth keeping you.


I agree with this as well, but minus the "intent to leave" as it may make her feel that her self worth is reduced to just that of an available vagina to use as needed once a week. 

*You can tell her you "need to be with her" once a week in a way that is extremely firm, no arguments, no complaining, no temper tantrums, no debate! She will actually respond very well to this, but in exchange you will need to demonstrate that you really do need it and really enjoy it!*

I often found myself "overprospecting" for sex, even though I was not in the mood. I did this as a way to test ideas and try to learn new ways to get my wife to respond. I would tell my wife I needed it to see if that would work, and come showtime I was not exactly ready to perform in the way I perform when she knows I am extremely aroused. My wife would tell me this in no uncertain terms, "if you really need it, you can have it anytime you want!" But it was implied that she would do that for me regardless of the fact of her being in the mood or not.

...so you get into the topic of duty sex being readily available. Odds are if you can be confident and ask for it ONLY when you really want it in a firm an direct way, she will learn to respond to that very well on her own terms.

Yesterday was a busy day in my house, and my wife is about to travel again, and she knows she needed to attend to me! It came down to a 15 minute window to do the deed before the kids got home from school and busy afternoon of ballet and soccer were upon us. She was a bit stressed to get things ready for her trip, so this was NOT an ideal time for her. It ended up being really great and I think she enjoyed it more than me! I attribute this to being "playfully firm" about my desire for her and being very direct about when I REALLY want it! From her point of view she needed me to be a little patient so that she could decide "when" it would happen that day. That is not something I do on a daily basis, but I might invoke that right about once a month for when circumstances do not easily allow me to wait an extra day or two for us to naturally find time to be together due to scheduling.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

tommyr said:


> The thing is this: does your wife truly understand that the current sexual frequency is a marriage ending dealbreaker for you? Is she clear on your target frequency of 1X per week? Have you ever point blank, unequivocally, just straight up told her this, in a way that you can literally see the light bulb click inside her head that that this is not simply "one more talk about sex" but is actually an irreversible fork in her road of life?
> 
> Your thread title suggests you've "Done everything but the leaving" however I think you owe her the chance to see your genuine intent to leave, and then allow her to decide that sex once per week is not worth keeping you.


I fact I did this early on (before I realized just how much damage it would cause). As the wise Santa-man has suggested, the response was more insecurity and a rather astute couple of questions from my wife "What do you want me for? Why do you want to be with me?"

I think my wife KNOWS this is a "deal breaker", where the actual consequences are now left unspoken by either of us, perhaps because neither really knows what we'll do. I've been at this long enough to learn a few lessons (most the hard way). I do strongly agree that the LD spouse should be forced to confront the fact that the relationship cannot continue in the current form. If you're going to spell it out explicitly, I'd suggest (again having learned...) doing it only ONCE. Repeatedly bashing the LD spouse with the "more sex or else I'm filing!" doesn't seem to me to be a winning strategy. I've noticed that several posters on TAM seem to advocate that as the FIRST suggestion. There may be cases where that's valid, but it isn't in mine.

But, yes, there MUST be a firm understanding that the end of the marriage is a very real (and likely) possibility if there is no change (after some period of time). My wife knows that, but beating her over the head with that line over and over is simply counterproductive (in my situation anyway).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TMT,
In every marital conversation - there's a you, and me and an US. 

When your wife suggested outsourcing, you flipped out and went to a hotel. 

That's ego protection. That kills communication. 

Why not just ask her - is that what you really want? 

There's two kinds of readers on TAM when it comes to this outsourcing conversation. 

The kind that see it as the ultimate power move in gaming your partner to put out. And the minority that see it as a painful work around in an otherwise excellent marriage. 

You have described an 'otherwise excellent' marriage. 

So here's where folks 'lose the thread'. And absolute proof of that is - the following behavior. 

1. Stating that they know that threatening their spouse with divorce doesn't work.
2. Then saying they want the truth - whatever it is regarding their wife's preferences via their sex life.
3. Followed by - the marriage can't survive unless this gets fixed.

This is NOT how rational folks communicate. It's circular, self contradictory nonsense. And you are still doing it. 

That's the opposite of an outsourcing conversation. 

Of course - the idea of outsourcing likely appalls you. It didn't me. I didn't want to go that route. I was just 'willing to'. 

So you talk in circles with T2 - which erodes trust. 

Let's contrast that. I just told M2 the truth. Paid sex doesn't destabilize a marriage. 

Lack of marital sex isn't great for the emotional bond but to be fair - fighting about sex - chronic stress about sex - isn't good for that bond either. For either of you. She hates the pressure. You hate the rejection. 

But leaving her over sex, that's ego protection too. 

That was my point with M2. Everything else is excellent. The companionship, the non sexual affection (we spend at least an hour a night lying in a tangle watching tv). I'm not leaving her. If she wants to leave me - because I'm not willing to be celibate - I guess she loves me less than I love her. I can live with that. 

All other paths through this maze - are dead ends terminating not just in lies but BIG LIES. 

I can be happy and still love you being forced into celibacy. BIG LIE. I won't feel a growing and toxic resentment over this - BIG LIE. I'm just as certain as I've always been that I won't ever stray - you guessed it - BIG LIE. 

Let's try the truth on for size as it feels different. I'm not going to fall in love with a masseuse - gives me a full body massage and happy ending. Not just true - very true. 

I'll accept this as a work around in an otherwise excellent marriage. Very true. 

See your problem is - you've bought into some serious pop culture nonsense - which is: if my wife isn't into me like that there must be something wrong with ME. Often that isn't true. 

Maybe your wife has always been a non sexual person. Or maybe just never felt 'unique sexual desire' thing for you. Doesn't matter. You are WAY WAY into the marriage with kids. 

So make the marriage work. You CANNOT MAKE IT WORK by talking in circles and saying contradictory stuff. You can't expect the truth - when you yourself don't offer it up. 






TooMuchTalk said:


> Looking forward to hearing your explanation... Hope you'll surprise me, but I suspect I know what you have to say. Been there, done that - didn't work. Tried all the MMSLP, 180, BS. The only really useful bit was the working on me - helped ME. Didn't address the power dynamic as you call it because I really didn't care that much. I was enjoying life, had a highly paid job, lots of toys and hobbies, and frankly probably ignored my wife in the one area we're struggling with now. We did LOTS of amazing stuff together, lots of travel, in short we enjoyed each other, being with each other, and life in general. So, yeah, I suppose it is largely my fault I didn't address the issue then. It just didn't seem to matter so much. If that's my fault then I guess it's fair I have to figure out how to get us back on track. Make no mistake, my wife knows this is serious. I was so pissed after one of her "outsourcing" arguments that I took off, got a hotel, and actually thought about going that route for a while. I realized it would't help me feel better and would only further damage our relationship. I can't turn back the clock. The DeLorean and flux capacitor don't work - hell even hover boards (still) aren't real. Gotta live with what I've got TODAY. I know where I want to go with this, don't know if I can get there, but T2 (somehow seems appropriate, she'd give Arnold a fight) says she'll try. I don't have infinite time, and the past couple of years haven't worked. So, it's either try a completely different approach or give up and move on with our lives so we can each find happiness separately.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

If you have the " more sex or I'm leaving" talk it does little good. Wife will either do nothing or she will go along with it for a while to smooth things over, and later revert back to her old ways. Why? Because she can't change who she is at her core. You have to realize she most likely will never have a higher drive and decide whether you can accept it or not.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

I'm confused about your response "I did this early on" because there are actually 2 parts to my posting.
#1 is her full understanding that yes it is a dealbreaker, it sounds like you may have well made this point
#2 is something of a negotiation around your *specific needs* and how far she is able/willing to go towards meeting that, and I do not hear that you ever reached a conclusion on this crucial point.

Without a doubt, #2 is the foundation of a go-forward strategy. I would hope you can negotiate a mutually agreeable frequency, and at that point, it is a done deal: you both are fully committed to the marriage. This can only be a binary result: you both are either ALL IN, or you are NOT in. And if Not, this leads immediately to outsourcing, otherwise marriage over.

The thing about BadSanta's unbelievable patience and humor is this is ONLY possible because he knows, deep down, his partner is ALL IN. That makes all the difference in the world. It allows him to joke around, taunt her (playfully), give her space, even several days of "rejection" in a row, because he just KNOWS that, soon enough, she will be available for him sexually. She has committed to that.

I would be lying if I claimed to play this as well as BadSanta, but I definitely allow my wife ample space to "reject" me for sex. On any given day/nite, the choice is entirely hers to say Yes or No. And I totally accept this (without whining, resentment, anger, etc) BECAUSE we are both ALL IN to the marriage, and I know it won't be more than a few days before we connect. 

While she is free to decide Yes/No to sex at the "micro level" that only works because she has already said Yes at the "macro level".
And I would never stay faithfully married to a woman who wasn't totally onboard with a macro level Yes.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes - but he needs to be direct about stuff and not contradictory. 

This means separating out - involuntary response patterns from choices. 

This needs to solely be about a good faith effort. At being truthful and at finding a workable level physical intimacy including sex. 

But if she needs to pretend that it's good when it isn't - that is a non starter. 






tornado said:


> If you have the " more sex or I'm leaving" talk it does little good. Wife will either do nothing or she will go along with it for a while to smooth things over, and later revert back to her old ways. Why? Because she can't change who she is at her core. You have to realize she most likely will never have a higher drive and decide whether you can accept it or not.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> 1. Stating that they know that threatening their spouse with divorce doesn't work.
> 2. Then saying they want the truth - whatever it is regarding their wife's preferences via their sex life.
> 3. Followed by - the marriage can't survive unless this gets fixed.
> 
> This is NOT how rational folks communicate. It's circular, self contradictory nonsense. And you are still doing it.


But I thought this is a conversation about sexuality! 

Mating in Captivity: Esther Perel


> ...the belief in democracy, equality, consensus building, compromise, fairness, and mutual tolerance–can, when carried too punctiliously into the bedroom, result in very boring sex. *Sexual desire and good citizenship do not play by the same rules...*


I strongly agree with this! Rebuilding a better sexual relationship is about accepting irrational temper tantrums and allowing them to play out in a sexual way. If TMT's wife told him, I've had enough of this, I want you to fück me one last time, and then we are done and we will just go our separate ways and you can never have me ever again! Holy cow, that would end up being really hot! And guess what, she could keep repeating it with him over and over again about once a week and it would still work like magic each time!

Sometimes rebuilding super awesome sex is getting each partner to both accept and embrace each other irrationality in a way that drives sexual tension into the stratosphere!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Mem: Outsourcing only works if it fills in the missing piece. I guess if the missing piece is "having an orgasm triggered by interaction with another human" then outsourcing is fine.

If what is missing is "I want to have sex with someone who was willing to consent to have sex with me for a reason other than the cash I just paid him / her" then outsourcing is not a solution.

I tried outsourcing once when I was single and working long hours and hadn't had sex in a long time. I hated it. I felt more ashamed of paying for sex than I felt about masturbating to porn over and over again. For me, outsourcing would not be a solution to the problem.

Yes, that means this is partly an ego problem and not merely a "lack of partner sex" problem. But I think that is the case for many HDs. Sex is partly about ego for many people. That is, after all, a big part of the reason that being rejected repeatedly causes such a hit to one's ego. If sex was not wrapped up in ego, lack of sex wouldn't be so soul-crushing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Santa,

Passion is good. Intensity is good. Desire is great. 

Anger is a secondary emotion. It's about fear or hurt. 

As the physically and financially stronger person - M2's perception of my anger is different than my perception of hers. 

Anger is almost always a turn off in these situations. 





badsanta said:


> But I thought this is a conversation about sexuality!
> 
> Mating in Captivity: Esther Perel
> 
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This IS why the outsourcing conversation is the fastest path to the truth.
> 
> Outsourcing - for pay - is not a risk to the marriage. It just isn't.
> 
> ...


I suspect a very large proportion of people will disagree fundamentally with this proposition. You'll get a lot of different (often contradictory) views of what the elements of marriage are, but I think that you would find "absolute sexual exclusivity" would be a very common response.

To most people, it would be a false choice. If I ask you whether you want a punch in the face or a kick in the groin, what you actually want is neither. Likewise the choice between the spouse going to a sex worker or having an affair. 

I'm likewise not convinced that the "accepting a sexless marriage makes you a b1tch" belief is common. Observed, yes, definitely. Prevalent? No. I think the contrasting view, that people who cannot manage without sex are weak, easily manipulated and likely to lack the willpower to resist temptation is just as common.

But I think the commonest view among lower-drive partners is no view at all. It simply doesn't cross their mind. If you aren't interested in golf, how often do you think about golf if someone else doesn't bring it up?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holding,
I can understand that even though I don't share that view. And really the closest I've ever been to that situation is the masseuse in Jakarta. She did what she could to encourage me to accept the happy ending part of the massage. 

The women in that type job are somewhat unaccustomed to basic human kindness. I don't think she was used to getting the tip for a happy ending that never came. 

But make no mistake, while I was perfectly glad to tip her for a service I declined, I only declined it because M2 has been a great wife and other than during a few moments of temporary insanity, she doesn't do the kinds of stuff that cause partners to resent their exclusivity. 

But if we had gone to a non exclusive arrangement, I would have felt no shame in paying. 






Holdingontoit said:


> Mem: Outsourcing only works if it fills in the missing piece. I guess if the missing piece is "having an orgasm triggered by interaction with another human" then outsourcing is fine.
> 
> If what is missing is "I want to have sex with someone who was willing to consent to have sex with me for a reason other than the cash I just paid him / her" then outsourcing is not a solution.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Not quite what I said. 

Allowing someone to demand exclusivity - when they aren't interested in the thing they demand exclusivity on - that makes you there bltch. 

Or in the most concise possible form: Allowing someone to demand your celibacy. 

Why would anyone tolerate that? 

That doesn't mean - sex on demand. Nor does it mean that variation from your optimal - is the basis for breaking exclusivity. 

Our current norm is quite at odds with my optimal. Some weeks we only connect once. But M2 is physically - struggling a bit. So perhaps 'good faith effort' is always going to be ok with me.

There is a point where I'd laugh and say - babe - your killing me. 

But that would only be triggered by perceived indifference, not by raw frequency. 





Sawney Beane said:


> I suspect a very large proportion of people will disagree fundamentally with this proposition. You'll get a lot of different (often contradictory) views of what the elements of marriage are, but I think that you would find "absolute sexual exclusivity" would be a very common response.
> 
> To most people, it would be a false choice. If I ask you whether you want a punch in the face or a kick in the groin, what you actually want is neither. Likewise the choice between the spouse going to a sex worker or having an affair.
> 
> ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

"absolute sexual exclusivity" is by definition a two sided coin. Exclusivity means sex with 1 person. Any different number (i.e. 2 or 0) is a break in that contract. It's the ultimate demonstration of use it or lose it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Santa,
> 
> Passion is good. Intensity is good. Desire is great.
> 
> ...



Agreed, but Anger is the "mask of vulnerability!" according to a prominent social worker. 

Intimacy is about closeness. Closeness is about allowing one's self to be vulnerable. While you obviously can't be close to someone that is wearing a mask and hiding their vulnerabilities, you can at least recognize it as an issue where improving closeness and intimacy has a great deal of potential. 

Now can you embrace this with irrational and unfair sexual playfulness?

For TMT, his wife likely gets upset when they argue about sex. WHY does she get upset, because it is an area where she knows she is vulnerable in the relationship. If TMT can go into that argument knowing her vulnerabilities are hiding behind her anger, odds are he can break down some barriers!

How would he go about that by being irrational? Odds are he could confirm her fear and tell his wife that she is a horrible lover in a calm but yet loving way (this takes away her barrier she is hiding behind), and then confidently tell her that despite that he loves her just the way she is, and her horrible techniques of lovemaking are actually what makes him feel close to her because they are genuine and imperfect.

There you go!

Badsanta


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> "absolute sexual exclusivity" is by definition a two sided coin. Exclusivity means sex with 1 person. Any different number (i.e. 2 or 0) is a break in that contract. It's the ultimate demonstration of use it or lose it.


It's generally defined less like a two sided coin and more like a check valve: flow in one direction only. You will absolutely under no circumstances have sex with anyone else. However, there is no absolute requirement for the partner to have sex with you. "You can't have sex with anyone else, but I'm under no obligation to provide".


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Sawney Beane said:


> It's generally defined less like a two sided coin and more like a check valve: flow in one direction only. You will absolutely under no circumstances have sex with anyone else. However, there is no absolute requirement for the partner to have sex with you. "You can't have sex with anyone else, but I'm under no obligation to provide".



Keep telling yourself that. Not what I signed up for. My exclusivity is absolutely conditional. She's under no obligation to provide, but she has to be willing to accept the consequences of her choices.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Keep telling yourself that. Not what I signed up for. My exclusivity is absolutely conditional. She's under no obligation to provide, but she has to be willing to accept the consequences of her choices.


Nothing to do with what I believe. It's the concensus view. Saying what you believe to most people will be greeted with horror and derision.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Santa,
There is a raw genuineness to you - that coupled with your determination - likely makes you irresistible to Mrs. Claus. 

So there is a script - that is sort of similar to yours it looks something like this. 

But this is only effective if done in a sort of amused manner. 

Yes - our sex life is a train wreck. Sort of always has been. Guess that just goes to show how great everything else in the marriage is. Because the rest of the marriage is great.

And then I'd say what would be true for me. 

I'm sorry that this thing - which is normally a source of joy - is not such a source for you. I wish we could switch bodies for one week. Just one week. 

I no longer want to do this TO you, I only want to do it WITH you. So maybe we could start with an easy question - are you confident that the best possible outcome for you - is simply to minimize how often we have sex? 

If John is right she won't disagree with that. And John, as always, has a valid point. She simply may not be attracted to him. Full stop. There's no getting around that - if that is indeed the case. 
There are a lot of legitimate reasons that my be true. 
1. She simply does not like sex at all. 
2. She likes women. 
3. She likes men - and loves him - more as a friend. 

If any of those things are true - this topic is very stressful for her. 

Which is exactly WHY I do think - outsourcing is a - lesser evil - scenario - than divorce. 

Get her to finish the following sentence with regard to their sex life: 

In a perfect world:
- We would never ever have sex again
Or
- I could learn to relax and enjoy sex with my H, who I totally love




badsanta said:


> Agreed, but Anger is the "mask of vulnerability!" according to a prominent social worker.
> 
> Intimacy is about closeness. Closeness is about allowing one's self to be vulnerable. While you obviously can't be close to someone that is wearing a mask and hiding their vulnerabilities, you can at least recognize it as an issue where improving closeness and intimacy has a great deal of potential.
> 
> ...


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

I don't see how outsourcing would work for any length of time. How do you set ground rules? Who get to set them? How do you enforce them? Eventually the wife (for example) is gonna get angry because instead of being home with her and the kids, her husband is across town humping his brains hours a week. Or his gonna be off with his FWB and something's gonna go wrong at home and his gonna get the "I needed you here but you were off with your *****" speech. Even if the wife was ok with the physical sex part of it, how long is it gonna be before she starts thinking of all the time she is not getting from him. 
Examples: time with her, time cleaning house, time working in the yard or house maintenance, time with the kids. Then it's gonna be a point of strife between them, which leads to divorce, which probably should have happened before we started this whole thing. Just my two cents.


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Sawney Beane said:


> I suspect a very large proportion of people will disagree fundamentally with this proposition. You'll get a lot of different (often contradictory) views of what the elements of marriage are, but I think that you would find "absolute sexual exclusivity" would be a very common response.
> 
> To most people, it would be a false choice. If I ask you whether you want a punch in the face or a kick in the groin, what you actually want is neither. Likewise the choice between the spouse going to a sex worker or having an affair.
> 
> ...


Great analogy!!
Being LD doesn't mean you don't wanna have sex with your spouse, it means you don't want to have sex period. You don't think about it or want to do it, it's not on your radar. You don't think about initiating or dressing sexy, or being sexy and you don't understand why anybody would think of those things.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Lila,
> If someone had told me - that the last time I'd have intercourse would be shy of my 49th birthday - I would have been mortified.
> 
> And I seriously think that M2 was genuinely afraid I'd walk - over that. It never even crossed my mind to do so. She has a chronic medical issue - not her fault. In sickness and in health means what it says. But I wouldn't accept a situation where a life partner wasn't willing to make an effort to satisfy my most important love language - AND - simultaneously asserted the 'exclusivity clause'.
> ...


I haven't been on TAM for a few days and a lot has transpired on this thread but I wanted to respond to this one post MEM because I think it is something the OP needs to think about. Your bolded statement is a great indicator as to whether someone will succeed or fail in single life, if it comes to that. 

When people ask "when do you know you're done?" my response is always "when you are happier _alone_ than with your spouse". IMO, people who leave for greener pastures, more often than not, end up regretting their decisions. Those that leave because they'd rather be alone than in a relationship where their needs are not being met tend to succeed. Makes sense. We can guarantee alone. We cannot guarantee partnered.

OP stated earlier that one of the things keeping him in his current relationship was the possibility that he would not find another partner. I believe his word choice was he would end up in a worse place than he is now. If divorce is truly an option for him, then he has to stop thinking in terms of greener pastures and start thinking in terms of 'I would be happier by myself'. 

FTR, I don't believe in outsourcing as we accept our partners warts and all. I feel that if outsourcing is an option with sex then it should be an option for every other need in a relationship, it's only fair. However, I might as well give up on monogamy if outsourcing is an option for every need our partners don't meet to our complete satisfaction (the bad). In the long run, it introduces more problems than it resolves. I do wholeheartedly believe divorce is always an option. You just have to understand the risks so that you don't end up regretting it after the fact. Eyes wide open and all that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WOM,
This is the ultimate tripwire for M2. It's - part of what I refer to as the 'primal plus' package. 

That's the dark comedy of modern life. Everyone wants to avoid saying what's true - if the truth - upsets. 

So here's the reality of the 'primal plus' package:
Filter/elimination criteria:
- doesn't put you first, wouldn't take a bullet for you, or if needed fire a bullet to save you. 
- doesn't see the REAL you, but instead constructs a fantasy of who you are based on what he wants.
- doesn't understand that sexual exclusivity is an absolute, 100% requirement 
- doesn't understand that being a good provider is not optional

So here's the thing - primal plus - comes with a LOT of requirements and then additional expectations on TOP of the requirements. 

The flip side of this model is that the - primal plus - woman understands that a high testosterone man NEEDS high octane fuel. 









WorkingOnMe said:


> Keep telling yourself that. Not what I signed up for. My exclusivity is absolutely conditional. She's under no obligation to provide, but she has to be willing to accept the consequences of her choices.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Yeah. The outsourcing thing would be an empty threat in my case, and my wife would know it. I get shivers from the idea of strangers touching me....ew. Even the idea of a legit professional massage (no HJ) makes me want to hide under a desk.

My wife is the only person I trust to touch me like that.


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

badsanta said:


> How would he go about that by being irrational? Odds are he could confirm her fear and tell his wife that she is a horrible lover in a calm but yet loving way (this takes away her barrier she is hiding behind), and then confidently tell her that despite that he loves her just the way she is, and her horrible techniques of lovemaking are actually what makes him feel close to her because they are genuine and imperfect.
> 
> There you go!
> 
> Badsanta


My wife is USUALLY a calm, gentle, thoughtful, and intelligent person, were I to take such an approach, I suspect her response might well be: "Fine, perhaps next time I'm in the gym I'll pay more attention to the guys checking me out!" I do get the concept though. My actual implementation is going to have to be a little different, mainly because T2 and I haven't yet gotten to the point in our sexual relationship that you and Mrs. Claus have. There are still to many "open wounds" to be dealt with first.

Since T2 actually mentioned the outsourcing idea on multiple occasions, my reaction (yes I was indeed upset, angry, etc.) was not 100% driven by ego. Part of it (the leaving and going to a hotel) was to try and gauge if, and how, she would react if I were to actually exercise that option. What I intended to do was made very plain to her BEFORE I left. Interestingly, one of our sex therapists said to us that "It's too bad there is such an emphasis on monogamy in marriage today. Many of my client's problems, like the one you are facing would be solved by allowing the dissatisfied spouse to go outside of the marriage to have his or her needs met." OK, I'm paraphrasing here - don't remember the exact words, but that's fairly close.

I, personally have made my decision on this point (but respect that other couples may well benefit from a different choice). I would rather end my marriage than go the "outsourcing" route. If that (MEM) makes me my wife's BIATCH in someone else's view, I really could care less. My reasoning for that choice is muti-fold:
1) It is only a temporary fix to a chronic problem (treats the symptoms, not the disease).
2) I'd have to use a condom, which would greatly reduce MY pleasure from the act (if this is about MY needs, I'd want the option leading to the most satisfaction for ME).
3) I would probably scuttle any hopes for coming to a long-term solution with my wife, which is my primary goal.

TAM's office-chair psychoanalysts may find the outcome of my threatened trip to outsourcing telling: My wife was VERY affectionate and apologetic AND reaffirmed how committed she was to making things work!

Having now spent almost 100 hours in counseling (individual and couples), I do see one benefit. It takes about 5-10 hours of probing questioning by the therapist to get a rough feel for the dynamic in a marriage (who's whom's biatch is perhaps one element!). That's a serious shortcoming of TAM advice. These aren't "how to do XYZ" issues we're dealing with, where one course of action works for all/most. Ok, TMT again... Sorry...


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

Lila said:


> When people ask "when do you know you're done?" my response is always "when you are happier _alone_ than with your spouse".


Yes! Thank you for mentioning this. I got a little side-tracked with this whole "outsourcing" discussion, but intended to post something along the lines of the classic "Ask yourself will your life be better or worse without your partner in it?"



Lila said:


> OP stated earlier that one of the things keeping him in his current relationship was the possibility that he would not find another partner. I believe his word choice was he would end up in a worse place than he is now. If divorce is truly an option for him, then he has to stop thinking in terms of greener pastures and start thinking in terms of 'I would be happier by myself'.


Actually, I stated that I realized that WAS a possibility, but is NOT what is motivating me (i.e. I'm not going to make important decisions based largely on FEAR). I have not only asked your question, but the logical follow-on: "Would my wife (and kids) be happier and lead better lives if my wife and I were to part ways?" The stress and tension in the parent's relationship is really starting to affect the kids as well. That's an equally (of not more) important reason for me to figure out, together with my wife, how to make this work. If this were an easy problem, as easy say as JUST doing the 180, or following the advice in MMSLP, verbatim, well then we wouldn't have much to talk about - and a big chunk of TAM (and a big chunk of divorces) would go away!


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

TooMuchTalk said:


> 1) It is only a temporary fix to a chronic problem (treats the symptoms, not the disease).
> 2) I'd have to use a condom, which would greatly reduce MY pleasure from the act (if this is about MY needs, I'd want the option leading to the most satisfaction for ME).
> 3) I would probably scuttle any hopes for coming to a long-term solution with my wife, which is my primary goal.


Yeah, probably should not have put this in THIS order! Should be 3), 1), and 2) a distant last place!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All that time in therapy - and you still don't know WHY she avoids sex with you. No offense intended but - she's afraid to tell you the truth. It really is that simple. 

And she is keenly aware she is risking the marriage. Keenly aware. 

That tells you something - which you could use in an unfiltered conversation were you to wish to have one. 

This isn't indifference. It's aversion. Big difference. Sawney Beene says: they just don't think about it. That just isn't the case here. He does think about it. And initiates. And she rejects him. That isn't 'letting it slip her mind'. 

That is instead a conciously decision to do something she KNOWS feels bad for TMT. Not only that - she is aware that it is a cumulatively injurious choice. Meaning it is hurting him more and more. 

And that rejection contains a lot of information. The first thing is that the experience is BAD for her. Only she knows why. But it is bad. If it was merely not that great - she would do it. 

And until TMT gets her to open up as to WHY it's bad there is ZERO chance of improvement. 
- Core lack of attraction
- Affect, pacing, technique

The thing is - there might have been a lot of talk up til now - but there has been precious little real communication. 




TooMuchTalk said:


> Yeah, probably should not have put this in THIS order! Should be 3), 1), and 2) a distant last place!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TooMuchTalk said:


> My reasoning for that choice is muti-fold:
> 1) It is only a temporary fix to a chronic problem (treats the symptoms, not the disease).
> 2) I'd have to use a condom, which would greatly reduce MY pleasure from the act (if this is about MY needs, I'd want the option leading to the most satisfaction for ME).
> 3) I would probably scuttle any hopes for coming to a long-term solution with my wife, which is my primary goal.





TooMuchTalk said:


> Yeah, probably should not have put this in THIS order! Should be 3), 1), and 2) a distant last place!


*Just to prove how irrational behavior can be extremely erotic*, try doing 2) with your wife!

Remember desire needs distance! Eroticism can also be invoked by imprinted experiences from our youth. So if you used condoms with your wife when you very first dated her, that experienced likely formed a core memory of when things were new and exciting. For you the condom dulled sensation and made you "desire" the first time you could go without one. If you tried reliving those experiences with you wife and using condoms again for a period of say 30 days before you allow yourself to have her bare again, well then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is how irrational behaviors make things in the bedroom awesome.

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> All that time in therapy - and you still don't know WHY she avoids sex with you. No offense intended but - she's afraid to tell you the truth. It really is that simple.
> 
> And she is keenly aware she is risking the marriage. Keenly aware.
> 
> ...



I agree she makes a conscious decision, but I doubt she truly understands how TMT really feels. I think she hears what he says, believes him. The problem is a LD spouse really doesn't understand the feeling because they've never had the feeling. She has probably never been HD and rejected over and over by someone she loves. It's like going to a funeral where someone has lost a spouse. You can see their tears and see their hurt , you can sympathize with them and try to imagine how they feel, but until you've been there you really don't know. I think LDs feel like their spouse is expressing their needs on the premise of "this is something I want" not something they need. The LD doesn't see it as a need, therefore it devalues it in their mind. I don't think the light goes off with many LDs how serious this is to the HD.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

tornado said:


> I agree she makes a conscious decision, but I doubt she truly understands how TMT really feels. I think she hears what he says, believes him. The problem is a LD spouse really doesn't understand the feeling because they've never had the feeling. She has probably never been HD and rejected over and over by someone she loves. It's like going to a funeral where someone has lost a spouse. You can see their tears and see their hurt , you can sympathize with them and try to imagine how they feel, but until you've been there you really don't know. I think LDs feel like their spouse is expressing their needs on the premise of "this is something I want" not something they need. The LD doesn't see it as a need, therefore it devalues it in their mind. I don't think the light goes off with many LDs how serious this is to the HD.


I completely agree!!!

Unfortunately BECAUSE the LD can NOT empathize, this rhetoric will do you or your relationship no good! It comes across like complaining just for the sake of complaining! 

Badsanta

And now for some photographic art for the sake of art! It will serve no purpose, but yet I still feel the need to enjoy searching for pictures that allow me to express myself in this post. Not easy to google images arguing for the sake of arguing that are artistic I say!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Interesting viewpoint. 

I didn't have to experience pregnancy to empathize with M2 being pregnant. And frankly I don't believe most of these LD spouses fail to grasp the magnitude of the problem after the HD has already mentioned divorcing over it. 

They have been in therapy quite a while. A 'third party' professional has explained the emotions associated with sex to T2.

I'm not saying it's unfixable. I am saying that sex is BAD for her and that's why she avoids it. Doesn't mean TMT is doing anything wrong. Might be a core attraction issue. I'm thinking that John is right - that it IS an unfixable core attraction issue. 

I'd say - M2 is moderately attracted to me. Absolutely could - crank her attraction level - by gaming her. Zero interest in doing that. Not going to make her anxious - to get laid more often. 





tornado said:


> I agree she makes a conscious decision, but I doubt she truly understands how TMT really feels. I think she hears what he says, believes him. The problem is a LD spouse really doesn't understand the feeling because they've never had the feeling. She has probably never been HD and rejected over and over by someone she loves. It's like going to a funeral where someone has lost a spouse. You can see their tears and see their hurt , you can sympathize with them and try to imagine how they feel, but until you've been there you really don't know. I think LDs feel like their spouse is expressing their needs on the premise of "this is something I want" not something they need. The LD doesn't see it as a need, therefore it devalues it in their mind. I don't think the light goes off with many LDs how serious this is to the HD.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> "absolute sexual exclusivity" is by definition a two sided coin. Exclusivity means sex with 1 person. Any different number (i.e. 2 or 0) is a break in that contract. It's the ultimate demonstration of use it or lose it.


The problem is that many people view "absolute sexual exclusivity" to mean "no sex outside the marriage," which comes with absolutely no guarantee that there will be any sex INSIDE the marriage.



MEM11363 said:


> Get her to finish the following sentence with regard to their sex life:
> 
> In a perfect world:
> - We would never ever have sex again
> ...


What if she'd rather finish it with something like "My husband would learn to do sex in a way I would enjoy?" Why does everyone think she's the one who needs to change? She's got this aversion to having sex with him, which means she finds it unpleasant for some reason. She's obviously afraid to admit that reason to him in counselling. So he has to guess. But he isn't guessing because he's too busy assuming HER behaviour is the problem, not his own.

Again, I fall back on my advice to make sexual activity all about HER for a while. She needs to unlearn her attitude that sex is an unpleasant chore she must do to for his needs. She also needs to enjoy it, which means they BOTH need to learn to accomplish that.

Maybe the reason for her aversion is simple. Maybe he's painfully big for her. Maybe he always goes in before she's sufficiently lubricated. Maybe his beard scratches her and she can't get aroused. Maybe his hands are rough and painful on her sensitive bits. Maybe he makes it last too long in pursuit of her orgasm and she gets sore. Maybe he finishes too quickly and rolls away and falls asleep without a care for how she's feeling. Maybe he's a bad kisser.

So, he needs to treat it like an experiment. Make sex all about her for a while, exploring her body, finding out what makes her tick. Pay attention to what she seems to enjoy, what she seems to dislike. Look for patterns. Stop when she says stop, no matter who has or has not orgasmed. Don't act disappointed, always act pleased to have learned something, and to have enjoyed what did occur.


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

Actually, I believe the REAL "problem" my wife and I have, and the root cause of ever other issue it has led to is perfectly exemplified in this thread: Too Many Assumptions, Too Little Listening (and actually comprehending what your being told), and Too Much Talk! OK, guilty as charged - but I'm not married to any of you so...

I can only use my particular situation as an example: My wife would vehemently deny any claims that she finds sex (with me) unpleasant in any way, and thus avoids it. Someday soon, after about 5 Mai Tai's, I have her read this thread (she finds TAM a complete and utter waste of time though!). What got me/us into a lot of trouble was making MEM's core assumption that: a) My wife doesn't want to have sex with me as frequently as I'd like. ERGO b) My wife doesn't ENJOY having sex with me. QED! Well, after hearing her say several times that it is definitively the case that she in fact very much enjoys sex, when there is no pressure to simply "check it off the list" (her words), and sticking to MEM's premise myself "if you enjoyed sex, you wouldn't be avoiding it", I have finally begun to LISTEN to what she's saying (as in comprehending!). So, if I believe that she is telling the truth about fully enjoying sex, but the fact remains that we aren't having it even close to what I'd consider "average" (I'm asking her to commit to 1x per week to start, and make a real effort to increase beyond that to ???). So, how is it possible we're not doing something she finds enjoyable, considering it's good for our relationship, our physical and mental health, and it's FREE?  Well, she likes chocolate too, gets a great deal of pleasurable sensation eating it, but she doesn't want to eat chocolate more than a couple of times per week.

No, there is NOTHING "wrong" with her that needs fixing. Again, it's taken me a long time to get to where I truly believe that. I've learned that, just as HD'ers claim LD'ers don't understand what the big deal is, that misunderstanding goes both ways. Indeed she KNOWS it's something that's important to me (and has been the major source of disagreement in our marriage), but she doesn't really understand why. To her, sex is just sex and not SEX!!!

That is why this is such a difficult (probably impossible) problem to "fix". My best hope (and what I think bad santa has been trying to tell us) is to make sex more intriguing, more playful, more fun, but still keeping the important intimate aspects. Right now sex appears somewhere between paying bills and doing laundry on her priority list. I need to bump it up in the priority queue. Easy right? I should just pay the bills and do the laundry. Done deal! Nope, something else always seems to fill the void in the queue. So, isn't that REALLY just her making excuses for in truth just plain not wanting to have sex (in other words, she's plain and simple lying to me about "liking it")? This is where the whole "responsive desire" argument comes in. But in her case (I believe) that isn't a sufficient explanation. I've come to believe that LD types have brain chemistry that is fundamentally different from HD types. I was probably LD (or at best MD) before my disease and the meds. to treat the symptoms pushed me closer to HD (low end of that bell curve though), by royally f'ing up my brain chemistry. It seems fairly widely accepted that this same demand shift often happens as women enter menopause.

So, short of inventing the mythical "female Viagra", what can be done? Repetitive reinforcement (more sex, less talk!) probably - but you have to get to where this can even happen first.

I'm going to try a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. The positive being anything that helps her build her confidence in both herself and us (making her feel desirable, wanted, needed, sexy, beautiful). I'll throw in a bit of bad santa's "fun and playful" approach. Ultimately success of failure relies on the effectiveness of the negative reinforcement though. She needs to understand that unless we fix this, it's the end of us, the end of everything we've worked for, and will certainly have an impact on the kids. She needs to understand all of that while NOT feeling pressured. Don't yet have that part figured out... Any ideas?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In a 'bet the marriage' situation like this, the interesting question is WHY there is such a huge asymmetry in information. 

He really doesn't know WHY she avoids sex as much as humanly possible. And T2 seems as determined not to say WHY in a way he can understand - as she is not to have sex itself. 

Based on his depiction - it's almost certainly fear, not malice. 

She's afraid that the truth will end their marriage. And it is a very valid fear. 

For example, if she were to say: I don't know WHY I dislike it, I just do. 

In my world that translates to: I am simply not attracted to this person. And there is absolutely no fix for that. 

This often happens when two people who actually love each other's company and conversation - enter early on into a don't ask/don't tell model of non communication about sex. The HD complains about the lack of sex, while not asking much about the reason for it. And the LD makes up a never ending stream of ego (his ego) protecting excuses. 

The saddest stories like this are the ones that go like this. Marriage reaches a breaking point. Marriage therapy or sex therapy begins. Things get just enough better for the marriage to limp along. Finally a decade later - the second break point is reached as old (sexless) patterns have resumed. At this point - in the very first counseling session the LD spouse blurts out: I'm just not attracted to you. Never have been. I love you. But hate having sex with you. 

That's why - the best move is the most direct. Say what IS true. 

It's obvious you dislike having sex with me and avoid it like the plague. If it's a technique thing or a fixable thing TELL ME. Otherwise I'll accept that it is an unfixable lack of attraction. 

That is tearing off the band aid. 




Hopeful Cynic said:


> The problem is that many people view "absolute sexual exclusivity" to mean "no sex outside the marriage," which comes with absolutely no guarantee that there will be any sex INSIDE the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Or, her issues have nothing to do with sex itself but are outside the bedroom. Some accumulation of small slights that meant nothing to him, were possibly / probably misinterpreted by her yet add up to no or very infrequent desire. 

While I am sure the "world according to MEM" as discussed in this thread, focused on raw mechanics and / or base attraction applies to some partners, I don't think that is universal.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

What do you suppose you should do when your wife's words don't match her behavior?


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Interesting viewpoint.
> 
> I didn't have to experience pregnancy to empathize with M2 being pregnant. And frankly I don't believe most of these LD spouses fail to grasp the magnitude of the problem after the HD has already mentioned divorcing over it.
> 
> ...



Then TMT needs to find out if his wife is truly LD. Some people say their spouse is LD and then say they masturbate 4 times a week. That's not LD. LD means you don't have Sex, think about sex, masturbate, have fantasies. If someone is truly LD changing the dynamic in the relationship won't affect their drive. If someone doesn't have sex with their spouse because of issues in the relationship that's not LD. That can be changed, maybe if there is not to much damage. So, is T2 really LD, or is she just LD with him?


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

anonmd said:


> While I am sure the "world according to MEM" as discussed in this thread, focused on raw mechanics and / or base attraction applies to some partners, I don't think that is universal.


Yes, my situation has now been fully interpreted by MEM. You bring up a valid point, and there is certainly some degree of residual anguish from all the fighting we've done over this issue the past couple of years, for BOTH of us. It didn't start out that way though.



MEM11363 said:


> In my world that translates to: I am simply not attracted to this person. And there is absolutely no fix for that.


It must be nice to live in your world where everything is so easily interpreted with clearly defined cause and effect relations. I don't think the people in my world are quite that predictable (maybe I took the wrong pill way back when - was it the red one or the blue one I was supposed to take to "wake up"?).



MEM11363 said:


> The saddest stories like this are the ones that go like this. Marriage reaches a breaking point. Marriage therapy or sex therapy begins. Things get just enough better for the marriage to limp along. Finally a decade later - the second break point is reached as old (sexless) patterns have resumed. At this point - in the very first counseling session the LD spouse blurts out: I'm just not attracted to you. Never have been. I love you. But hate having sex with you.


We must be both an accelerated and decelerated time scale simultaneously then: We've "limped along" for over 20 years together, but our marriage therapy has all taken place within the past 2 years.



tornado said:


> Then TMT needs to find out if his wife is truly LD. Some people say their spouse is LD and then say they masturbate 4 times a week. That's not LD. LD means you don't have Sex, think about sex, masturbate, have fantasies. If someone is truly LD changing the dynamic in the relationship won't affect their drive. If someone doesn't have sex with their spouse because of issues in the relationship that's not LD. That can be changed, maybe if there is not to much damage. So, is T2 really LD, or is she just LD with him?


Went over that. No masturbation at ALL, EVER. No using toys of any kind. I'm 100% certain there's no outside sex (affair or other) going on. But, she vigorously claims to enjoy sex, when we have it (as long as I don't "analyze" it too much afterwards). She needs time to get completely refocused before sex, meaning all other distractions have to be filtered out by her.


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What do you suppose you should do when your wife's words don't match her behavior?


One of the following:
a) Believe that she's lying - about everything.
b) Believe that she's telling the truth but doesn't understand what is causing her behavior.
c) Believe that she's telling the truth but something ELSE in the relationship is causing her behavior that she won't (or can't) tell me about.
d) Believe that she's schizophrenic.

Choices, choices....


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Whatever keeps you comfortable I guess.


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

Thank you all (even you MEM) for taking some of your valuable time to help me (and my wife) understand our issues a little better, after all, nobody understands the "disease" better than those afflicted! I truly appreciate all your suggestions and comments. I'm going to fall back into the real world for a while now, and let this thread drop off the active list (at least I won't participate anymore). I think it's time that I get back to seriously working on fixing my marriage and, hopefully, connecting with my wife in a way that we haven't been able to in the past. Thanks to several of the replies in this thread, I think I have a better understanding of our situations, and what I need to do. I'll post an update either way when any significant change (either way) occurs. Thanks again...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> What do you suppose you should do when your wife's words don't match her behavior?


Assume that MEM's dynamic is the most likely explanation for the disconnect. Your spouse fears that the truth will damage your marriage. So they hesitate to admit the truth.

Turn this around on them. Announce that you intend to assume the worst possible explanation. If the problem is lack of sex, then you are going to assume the problem is unfixable. Demand that she either admit to the less bad explanation (it is technique or bad breath or something else you can fix), or bring her behavior into line with her words (yes I do find you attractive and yes I do enjoy sex with you), or you will have to act on the assumption that the truth she fears to admit is a deal breaker.

Do not allow temporary excuses to continue. Assume that life will always be busy, you'll always be short of time and money, and there will always be urgent items remaining on the "to do" list. If she won't have sex with you until all items on the to do list are completed, so she can relax, then you are never having sex again. Because there are always more items to do. Heck, after you die there will be MORE items to do like the funeral, the changes to financial accounts, etc. The list doesn't even end when you DIE!

Of course, this means that you have to avoid a long term sexless marriage more than you want to avoid the disruption to your life that a divorce would cause.

Which is why this conversation should happen early in the relationship. Hopefully before marriage but in all cases before having children. And while you are hashing this out, all additional entanglements should be put on hold. No kids. No buying a house. No signing a long term lease. No acquiring new pets. No joint investments. Because the more entanglements the HD allows to accumulate, the more disruption from divorce and the harder it will be for the HD partner to pull the trigger. And when you tell the LD spouse there will be no forward progress in the relationship in any other area until the sex mismatch is resolved, you create an urgency that the LD might not feel innately from arguments over lack of sex. 

Of course, that announcement might trigger the LD to file for divorce. But in the overwhelming majority of cases, if it does, that is in the HD's best interest as well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It is entirely possible that - stuff outside the bedroom is the culprit. 

Thing is - it makes no practical difference. If your partner avoids sex and won't tell you why - then the why begins not to matter. You cannot fix what they will not describe. 

But if you read the tail end of this thread - it's a bit disconcerting. 

It is the standard LD double talk. 

She says: I LIKE sex. And I like sex at about the same frequency as you. 

Except her actions completely contradict that, including a rejection rate that makes limits frequency to a level causing her H intense distress.

My answer to that would be a slow shake of my head. Followed by - so this - consequence neither of us wants - is going to happen - because you continue to refuse to do something you claim to like and want to do. 

I've never seen a marriage where the person doing the gas lighting, feels respect for the person allowing themselves to be gas lighted....




anonmd said:


> Or, her issues have nothing to do with sex itself but are outside the bedroom. Some accumulation of small slights that meant nothing to him, were possibly / probably misinterpreted by her yet add up to no or very infrequent desire.
> 
> While I am sure the "world according to MEM" as discussed in this thread, focused on raw mechanics and / or base attraction applies to some partners, I don't think that is universal.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> It is entirely possible that - stuff outside the bedroom is the culprit.
> 
> Thing is - it makes no practical difference. If your partner avoids sex and won't tell you why - then the why begins not to matter. You cannot fix what they will not describe.
> 
> ...


QFT.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> WorkingOnMe said:
> 
> 
> > What do you suppose you should do when your wife's words don't match her behavior?
> ...



Agree 100%!!
That's why it's the HD is half to blame. HDs don't address the issue soon enough, assuming it will work itself out, or are young and don't ever think of it being an issue. They get so deep in the relationship with marriage, finances, children and so forth that it becomes almost impossible to get out. Ten, twenty year later they realize their sex life is miserable, but there no easy way out.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

See, what I like about the MEM analysis is that it allows the HD to affirm / validate the LD spouse. You look at them and say "I respect your opinion and perspective very much. If you think the truth you are hiding from me is so powerful and so hurtful that I might leave you over it, I am willing to accept that it probably is. So if you can't bring yourself to admit the truth (that is, some obstacle that is consistent with you hardly ever wanting to have sex, rather than continued denial that there is such a problem), I have to make my future decisions on the assumption that there is something about having sex with me that bothers you very much and that you fear is not fixable."

Then wait and see if they can come up with a fixable problem like you are out of shape or your technique stinks and your breath does too. If their hesitation in disclosing the problem is merely to shelter your fragile little ego, smile and tell them you have more than enough ego to overcome mild complaints like those and work to eliminate the obstacles. Congratulations, you are a winner and your sex life is fixable. Overcoming your spouse's extreme politeness and desire not to hurt your feelings is very doable.

On the other hand, if they tell you it is simply that they are busy and tired or stressed, you reply "that is how life is. If we can only have sex when things are calm and peaceful, we'll hardly ever have sex. The message that you are sending me is that, for you, sex is not a respite from the stresses in your life. For you, sex is not a balm that eases your burdens and lifts your spirits. For you, sex IS a burden. Which is OK. Nothing wrong with you for feeling that way. But I need to be married to someone who feels that sex with me is a relief from the stresses of life. It seems you are not that person. Wish we had both realized that sooner."

If you the HD cannot bring yourself to say that (and I cannot), then realize that you the HD are the reason that you are stuck is a mismatched relationship and stop blaming your spouse for your misery.

I may write many things here that some view as negative toward my wife. But please understand I know full well that I am the problem. She told me a long time ago that she was never going to be able to satisfy my sexual urges. I didn't believe her. That is on me. Now I do. And I am staying. That is on me, too. I treat her nicely. Not because she fulfills all my needs. But because that is how a husband is supposed to treat his wife and it is not her fault I decided to stay. She is a wonderful wife in many many ways. That is why I stay. And she deserves to be treated in accordance with her many wonderful qualities. Lord knows I have plenty of flaws and shortcomings too. If she is willing to overlook mine, I should overlook hers. When I can't, I should leave. To do otherwise is extremely foolish on so many levels.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> That is tearing off the band aid.


Given the impact, it's more like "destroy the village to save the village".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Realizing that on this thread I have come across as a 'know it all' and in doing so, put some folks off, I'd like to clarify a few things. 

Us humans all come packaged with a basic bullshlt detector. And then depending - on aptitude and interest level - we may or may not get better at deception identification as we age. 

On TAM - where information is often quite limited, it is usually foolish to think you know what is true. So on this thread the only thing that I'm fully confident about - is that there is a vast chasm between what T2 does and what she says. 

So - the OP - was uncomfortable focusing on that chasm. And now has left the thread. 





Holdingontoit said:


> See, what I like about the MEM analysis is that it allows the HD to affirm / validate the LD spouse. You look at them and say "I respect your opinion and perspective very much. If you think the truth you are hiding from me is so powerful and so hurtful that I might leave you over it, I am willing to accept that it probably is. So if you can't bring yourself to admit the truth (that is, some obstacle that is consistent with you hardly ever wanting to have sex, rather than continued denial that there is such a problem), I have to make my future decisions on the assumption that there is something about having sex with me that bothers you very much and that you fear is not fixable."
> 
> Then wait and see if they can come up with a fixable problem like you are out of shape or your technique stinks and your breath does too. If their hesitation in disclosing the problem is merely to shelter your fragile little ego, smile and tell them you have more than enough ego to overcome mild complaints like those and work to eliminate the obstacles. Congratulations, you are a winner and your sex life is fixable. Overcoming your spouse's extreme politeness and desire not to hurt your feelings is very doable.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Sawney Beane said:


> Given the impact, it's more like "destroy the village to save the village".


No. More like gnawing your arm off to escape the bear trap you fell into.


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> I may write many things here that some view as negative toward my wife. But please understand I know full well that I am the problem. She told me a long time ago that she was never going to be able to satisfy my sexual urges. I didn't believe her. That is on me. Now I do. And I am staying. That is on me, too. I treat her nicely. Not because she fulfills all my needs. But because that is how a husband is supposed to treat his wife and it is not her fault I decided to stay. She is a wonderful wife in many many ways. That is why I stay. And she deserves to be treated in accordance with her many wonderful qualities. Lord knows I have plenty of flaws and shortcomings too. If she is willing to overlook mine, I should overlook hers. When I can't, I should leave. To do otherwise is extremely foolish on so many levels.


My wife has said the same. That's really what this all boils down to: Can I live with things getting a little bit better (or a lot, who knows) than they are now, with the full knowledge that my wife will NEVER be fully "compatible" with me in ONE area of our life together. Granted, it's an important one, but it's not the ONLY aspect of our marriage that has to work for us to be happy. My wife says she understands and is really going to try and move us forward. If it ends up that her words never match her actions, I'll just have to be willing to accept that. It's possible that, at some time in the future my wife comes completely clean and says something like: "I know I'll never be able to satisfy all your needs. I still enjoy having sex with you, but just not with the frequency you want, or the way you want it (or whatever else seems wrong at the time...) . Maybe we should discuss how we can address that so we are both happier". Perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part. I am certain of ONE thing though. I am NOT going to "limp" through 10 years without a resolution to this. Either I'm going to have to accept that things are as good as they'll ever get and figure out a way to be OK with that, or I'm going to have "the talk" (that none of us wants to EVER have) and figure out how best to each get what we need in a manner that impacts the kids the least.

MEM - I really do understand and appreciate your point of view. I do see the "disconnect". I realize that this whole topic SHOULD have been addressed by my wife LONG ago. The problem is that it really wasn't as big a problem until fairly recently (I'll certainly admit to knowing from the start there was a "mismatch" in desire). My crystal ball wasn't very clear back then in foretelling our future, it still isn't! SO... While all of what you say is VERY good advice for me to give to my two kids when the time comes (that's at least a decade away I hope!), it doesn't really help my wife and I right now. It HAS made me realize the major point I need to address: that "chasm" between words and actions. As I've written, I truly appreciate EVERYTHING that everyone's taken the time to post. I'm posting a FINAL "final" post to this thread because I realized it might have seemed I left without actual acknowledging that I "get" the arguments that I might not really want to face up to. I also didn't want to leave with a final sarcastic post to MEM. Anyone who has nearly 10k posts on TAM deserves all our gratitude! Some final closing remarks (but I WILL be back when I have something to report - one way or another!):



MEM11363 said:


> Thing is - it makes no practical difference. If your partner avoids sex and won't tell you why - then the why begins not to matter. You cannot fix what they will not describe.


Yup, gotta agree with that. That IS what we are paying $200/hr for though. The MC is trying (seems like a SLOW process - maybe she needs a new Porsche?) to get us both to admit to the FEELINGS behind our words and actions.



MEM11363 said:


> She says: I LIKE sex. And I like sex at about the same frequency as you.
> 
> Except her actions completely contradict that, including a rejection rate that makes limits frequency to a level causing her H intense distress.


Unfortunately, we're both OLDER now, and a few things have changed since we were 20-something. We were a lot closer to being "matching" in desire, frequency, etc. back then. MEM, is appears you know this all to well with M2 in menopause??? That's just a physical reality I might have to accept. It may not be possible for T2 to match me (right now - in the future, with my disease???) no matter how much she says she (and perhaps really DOES) wants to.



MEM11363 said:


> My answer to that would be a slow shake of my head. Followed by - so this - consequence neither of us wants - is going to happen - because you continue to refuse to do something you claim to like and want to do.


If only in the past (particularly the last 3-4 months) I had been able to be so calm - with a "slow shake of my head"!!! Instead, it's been a bi-weekly occurrence of shouting, throwing, verbal abuse that hasn't really done anything to resolve the situation. That approach hasn't helped, so in an attempt to avoid that old definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different outcome), I'm going to take what I've learned here, and try to come up with a plan. Wish me/us luck and thanks again for everything...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Holdingontoit said:


> No. More like gnawing your arm off to escape the bear trap you fell into.


Amounts to the same thing. Slow painful death from exposure/septicaemia or slow death from septicaemia and blood loss. Google the proverb of the jug and the stone.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TMT,

You are a class act. I apologize for my tone in an earlier post. I was over the line. 

So - a few sort of painful observations and acknowledgements. 

What you say - about a desire gap - is absolutely true. M2 is in menopause - and her desire is low. We do have a very real difference in desire levels. 

So what - have I 'done' about that desire gap. I've responded honestly to questions she's asked. 
- Are you HAPPY with twice a week? (me: YES)
- When we have hiccups and now and then it is only once a week how painful is that? (me: it isn't painful, noticeable but not painful)

Earlier I mentioned how we rate restaurants. Do the same thing with movies and other experiences. Two lightly aspie folks, happily quantifying the world, with each other. Usually having freakishly similar reactions to a wide range of stimulus. 

Paradox Rules:
1. The giver gives what is wanted - without being asked. I initiate our racquetball dates. I'm the perfect r-ball partner for M2. She is a sub optimal r-ball partner for me - in terms of the mechanics of the experience. But she responds to r-ball like I respond to sex. Pupil dilation, intense excitement. A classic dopamine junky. I initiate to dispel her angst about the experience not being good for me...
2. The recipient - says - thank you. They don't pretend the experience was symmetrical, when they know otherwise....

M2 who loves r-ball, has genuine performance anxiety - about it. Which I handle the way you'd want to be handled on the receiving end. Making her happy, makes me happy. The mechanics are good enough that that part is still fun for me. 

So after we play, there's a brief reassurance exchange. 
M2: I'm sorry that I'm not a challenge for you.....
Me: I love playing with you. Why I asked you to play. (This is a true statement and is obviously so - thus it ends the exchange).

After sex - M2 asks if it was 'ok' for me. I just laugh and say any better and you'd need to defibrillate me. 

But then - I ask if it was ok for her. Because I do worry about that. 
And I don't hide that. 









TooMuchTalk said:


> My wife has said the same. That's really what this all boils down to: Can I live with things getting a little bit better (or a lot, who knows) than they are now, with the full knowledge that my wife will NEVER be fully "compatible" with me in ONE area of our life together. Granted, it's an important one, but it's not the ONLY aspect of our marriage that has to work for us to be happy. My wife says she understands and is really going to try and move us forward. If it ends up that her words never match her actions, I'll just have to be willing to accept that. It's possible that, at some time in the future my wife comes completely clean and says something like: "I know I'll never be able to satisfy all your needs. I still enjoy having sex with you, but just not with the frequency you want, or the way you want it (or whatever else seems wrong at the time...) . Maybe we should discuss how we can address that so we are both happier". Perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part. I am certain of ONE thing though. I am NOT going to "limp" through 10 years without a resolution to this. Either I'm going to have to accept that things are as good as they'll ever get and figure out a way to be OK with that, or I'm going to have "the talk" (that none of us wants to EVER have) and figure out how best to each get what we need in a manner that impacts the kids the least.
> 
> MEM - I really do understand and appreciate your point of view. I do see the "disconnect". I realize that this whole topic SHOULD have been addressed by my wife LONG ago. The problem is that it really wasn't as big a problem until fairly recently (I'll certainly admit to knowing from the start there was a "mismatch" in desire). My crystal ball wasn't very clear back then in foretelling our future, it still isn't! SO... While all of what you say is VERY good advice for me to give to my two kids when the time comes (that's at least a decade away I hope!), it doesn't really help my wife and I right now. It HAS made me realize the major point I need to address: that "chasm" between words and actions. As I've written, I truly appreciate EVERYTHING that everyone's taken the time to post. I'm posting a FINAL "final" post to this thread because I realized it might have seemed I left without actual acknowledging that I "get" the arguments that I might not really want to face up to. I also didn't want to leave with a final sarcastic post to MEM. Anyone who has nearly 10k posts on TAM deserves all our gratitude! Some final closing remarks (but I WILL be back when I have something to report - one way or another!):
> 
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Paradox Rules:
> 1. The giver gives what is wanted - without being asked. I initiate our racquetball dates. I'm the perfect r-ball partner for M2. She is a sub optimal r-ball partner for me - in terms of the mechanics of the experience. But she responds to r-ball like I respond to sex. Pupil dilation, intense excitement. A classic dopamine junky. I initiate to dispel her angst about the experience not being good for me...
> 2. The recipient - says - thank you. They don't pretend the experience was symmetrical, when they know otherwise....


Let me see if I'm reading this right. The person who doesn't want to participate enthusiastically offers the thing they don't want to do. Their performance isn't optimal. The recipient is enthusiastic about 
what they are given.

Is that right?

If so, let's say it's food we're talking about. How long can you put up with the inedible?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
In shared activities - r-ball, sex, etc. - there are two completely distinct components of the experience. 
1. The raw mechanics
2. The spirit (or emotion) of the experience

Doing things that make M2 happy - generally feels really good to me. For r-ball the mechanics are maybe a 6, the spirit is a 10 so the overall experience is an 8. 

For sex - that's likely a similar profile for M2. But - and this matters - and why I harp on it - I do my level best to avoid stuff that mechanically feels bad to M2. As for the things that make it better - like wrestling before hand - I also do those. Doesn't change the fact that - her desire level simply isn't as high as mine. 






Sawney Beane said:


> Let me see if I'm reading this right. The person who doesn't want to participate enthusiastically offers the thing they don't want to do. Their performance isn't optimal. The recipient is enthusiastic about
> what they are given.
> 
> Is that right?
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> In shared activities - r-ball, sex, etc. - there are two completely distinct components of the experience.
> 1. The raw mechanics
> 2. The spirit (or emotion) of the experience
> ...


OK, following the cooking analogy. She enthusiastically cooks things a hungry dog might think twice before eating. How long can you choke it down before it's blindingly obvious you really are only eating it out of politeness and would rather be at Mickey D's? You need a bottle of wine with every course...

And how long before they turn round and say "Look, you and I both know I could barely make food that would pass muster in Biafra. Don't kid me you like it. You appreciate the effort, but it's obvious you struggle to choke it down".

How long before the providor's enthusiasm/effort/spirit simply isn't enough to overcome the problems with the mechanics?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I cannot speak to poor technique as it is rooted in an indifference which is foreign to me. 

I do however recognize the notion that people often have strong food preferences. They are typically - not changeable. 

I am every bit as untroubled by strong preference, as I am violently allergic to extreme deception. 

And I define extreme deception as: A large and pervasive gap between word and deed. 




Sawney Beane said:


> OK, following the cooking analogy. She enthusiastically cooks things a hungry dog might think twice before eating. How long can you choke it down before it's blindingly obvious you really are only eating it out of politeness and would rather be at Mickey D's? You need a bottle of wine with every course...
> 
> And how long before they turn round and say "Look, you and I both know I could barely make food that would pass muster in Biafra. Don't kid me you like it. You appreciate the effort, but it's obvious you struggle to choke it down".
> 
> How long before the providor's enthusiasm/effort/spirit simply isn't enough to overcome the problems with the mechanics?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Sawney Beane said:


> OK, following the cooking analogy. She enthusiastically cooks things a hungry dog might think twice before eating. How long can you choke it down before it's blindingly obvious you really are only eating it out of politeness and would rather be at Mickey D's? You need a bottle of wine with every course...
> 
> And how long before they turn round and say "Look, you and I both know I could barely make food that would pass muster in Biafra. Don't kid me you like it. You appreciate the effort, but it's obvious you struggle to choke it down".
> 
> How long before the providor's enthusiasm/effort/spirit simply isn't enough to overcome the problems with the mechanics?


I don't know how HD-LD threads always end up in food analogies. I thought of two myself as I was reading along...

Cheesecake. It's tasty, both people like it. However, the baker has to go through all the trouble of making it before they can eat it, and their spouse just comes along and gobbles it down and gets up and walks away while the other person is still eating. Then the baker, who is lactose intolerant, has unpleasant after-effects for some time. Now, say, their spouse is always going on and on about cheesecake, and how the baker should make it more often, how it's wonderful to eat together, etc, how the marriage will suffer if there is insufficient cheesecake! Do you think the baker really wants to make it more often?

Steak. The chef likes it rare, the other spouse well-done. The chef absolutely insists that their spouse eat it rare too. It's better that way! The chef makes no effort to account for the spouse's tastes, or put in the effort to cook the steak long enough to make their spouse happy. Do you think the spouse is really going to be thrilled to hear "I'm making steak tonight!" or worse still, that the marriage will suffer if they don't eat steak regularly, but it must be rare.

These threads always make me hungry for some reason.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is quite good - as I'm partial to custom orders. When I cook - mushrooms go in a separate bowl as one of our family members doesn't like them. And degree of rarity is delivered as requested. 

When I cook - I'm cooking for you specifically even if you're part of a group. Not for me. For you. Yes like any competent Venn diagramist - I find an intersect - a place we both like the actual food content itself. But as to preparation style - more than glad to accommodate.....

This is why cooking analogies don't work for me. If need be, I'll cook two different meals to keep everyone happy. 

R-ball isn't like that. It is, like sex, by definition a shared experience. 

There were some comments below - about selfishness - that resonated. 

One time - M2 got on the court without her contact lens in. This lowered her game play, and therefore I considered that choice inconsiderate - given the raw skill gap we already have. 

So I removed the small delay loop - that I employ as an equalizer. After one game (15-0) I gently suggested coming back the next day - with M2 wearing her contact lens.....

So yes - in an asymmetrical context, best efforts or the lack thereof go long way. They are an excellent gauge of partner awareness.....




Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't know how HD-LD threads always end up in food analogies. I thought of two myself as I was reading along...
> 
> Cheesecake. It's tasty, both people like it. However, the baker has to go through all the trouble of making it before they can eat it, and their spouse just comes along and gobbles it down and gets up and walks away while the other person is still eating. Then the baker, who is lactose intolerant, has unpleasant after-effects for some time. Now, say, their spouse is always going on and on about cheesecake, and how the baker should make it more often, how it's wonderful to eat together, etc, how the marriage will suffer if there is insufficient cheesecake! Do you think the baker really wants to make it more often?
> 
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> I cannot speak to poor technique as it is rooted in an indifference which is foreign to me.


It is,however, very common indeed. Indifference is the normal reaction from most people when offered the chance to do something they are not interested in. 

Continual, ongoing enthusiastic failure is much rarer.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This is why cooking analogies don't work for me. If need be, I'll cook two different meals to keep everyone happy.
> 
> R-ball isn't like that. It is, like sex, by definition a shared experience.
> 
> ...


How long do you carry on playing the game against somebody with neither skill nor enthusiasm, or whose skill level never rises above the point that you can have a better game knocking the ball against the wall on your own?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wouldn't get out the gate with someone like that. 

That's interesting. Maybe part of why - everything including sex works for us is that - we are fully engaged with each other when we do stuff together. Always have been. 

Non fully engaged sex - has no appeal whatsoever to me. But that's true for most paired activities. If I got the impression the other person was indifferent to my presence - I'd rapidly be absent. 




Sawney Beane said:


> How long do you carry on playing the game against somebody with neither skill nor enthusiasm, or whose skill level never rises above the point that you can have a better game knocking the ball against the wall on your own?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Wouldn't get out the gate with someone like that.
> 
> That's interesting. Maybe part of why - everything including sex works for us is that - *we are fully engaged with each other when we do stuff together*. Always have been.
> 
> Non fully engaged sex - has no appeal whatsoever to me. But that's true for most paired activities. If I got the impression the other person was indifferent to my presence - I'd rapidly be absent.


Emph. mine.

This experience isn't typical I suspect. The late Mrs Beane and I were fully engaged with what we did together. Stuff the other wasn't interested in we didn't even try to do together. 

You see so many couples where one partner is obviously really into whatever they are doing and the other one is along for the ride praying for it to be over. They cannot muster ANY skill or enthusiasm to take part.

When this is fishing, tennis, shopping, morris dancing or whatever, it doesn't matter. If you go fishing or shopping with someone other than your spouse, so what?

Sex is the one thing where this breaks down. Going fishing with someone other than your spouse and the marriage is fine. Sex with someone other than your spouse and (generally) that's it.

Bottom line? If it's fishing, racketball or martial arts, you can fix the problem. If it's sex - game over.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

But what happens when your partner does this real time read - of your affect. So if we are shopping or playing rball, and I'm wishing it were over - that would be quickly (within minutes) apparent to her. It would kill the experience for her. 

I can't think of any patterned situation either of us tolerates for the other. We're doing it together - and that MAKES it fun. 

I have kindle on my phone so for a subset of shopping - I read. 

When did you divorce? Sorry to hear that. How long were you married?




Sawney Beane said:


> Emph. mine.
> 
> This experience isn't typical I suspect. The late Mrs Beane and I were fully engaged with what we did together. Stuff the other wasn't interested in we didn't even try to do together.
> 
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> But what happens when your partner does this real time read - of your affect. So if we are shopping or playing rball, and I'm wishing it were over - that would be quickly (within minutes) apparent to her. It would kill the experience for her.
> 
> I can't think of any patterned situation either of us tolerates for the other. We're doing it together - and that MAKES it fun.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that a lot of people have the expectation that spouses will do together what one partner enjoys, irrespective of whether the other partner likes it or not. Flawed? Definitely. Common? That too.

Not divorced mate, windowed. Mrs Beane was run over by a drunken and drugged driver in January 2013 :crying:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Really really sorry to hear that. That is just awful. 





Sawney Beane said:


> Keep in mind that a lot of people have the expectation that spouses will do together what one partner enjoys, irrespective of whether the other partner likes it or not. Flawed? Definitely. Common? That too.
> 
> Not divorced mate, windowed. Mrs Beane was run over by a drunken and drugged driver in January 2013 :crying:


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Re. the significance of pulling out of the LD partner a "reason" why the LD is averse to sex with you:



* If it is the sort of thing supposedly you would feel uncomfortable knowing about yourself ("you have bad breath", "you have gotten fat", "you don't make me feel attractive"...), there is no guarantee it is truly the issue that caused the lack of desire, or has something to do with locking in the lack of desire, or if addressed will lead to increased desire.



What at first seems like an aha moment, eg "Oh, that is it...No wonder... Good news, I can address that..." may indeed turn out to be just another irrelevant tangent.



There is cost to asking for these "insights". One's flaws get highlighted in a way most in happy relationships or no relationships ever have to face. And, I'd guess that in the LD's mind these unearthed flaws are at risk of now taking on exaggerated significance.



All the while, there is a more uncomfortable truth still hidden at the root of the aversion and lack of desire.



Exactly what fears keep the ultimate truth hidden from one or both partners is anyone's guess.



The brevity of life demands we act on uncertain information. I suppose it helps sometimes to keep in mind how uncertain the information obtained from reluctant conversation partners is.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Sawney: Terribly sorry for your loss. Hope never to have any idea what that is like.



Sawney Beane said:


> Given the impact, it's more like "destroy the village to save the village".


Yes, that is exactly what it is. I get the impression that you view the end of the marriage as the worst possible outcome. Many of us have come to view long-standing mismatch as the worst possible outcome. And I think it is worst for the LD as well. Not only is being constantly pressured for sex a horrible way to spend your life, but presumably the LD fell in love with and wishes to be married to the version of the HD that existed when they got married. Subjecting most HDs to sexual deprivation for a decade or more is highly likely to impact the HD in unfavorable ways. The HD won't be the same person after a decade of deprivation that they were on their wedding day. So if that is who the LD wishes to be married to, either nourish the HD's soul or do both of you a favor and set yourselves free.

The attraction of MEM's analysis is that while there is a good chance it won't solve the mismatch, there is also a good chance the people won't stay married if it doesn't. So if a HD tries MEM's gambit and the LD does not respond either with (i) a plausible reason for the lack of sex that is fixable or (ii) making sex a higher priority, then the HD treats silence as tacit agreement that there is a major problem and it is NOT fixable (or at least the LD thinks it isn't) and makes the rational choice to leave. What it avoids is the HD endlessly badgering the LD for a "reason" and staying married while the HD waits vainly for an acceptable response.

PoS: You are entirely correct that endlessly badgering for a reason will itself damage the marriage. That is the beauty of MEM's analysis. If the HD doesn't receive an answer fairly quickly, you avoid all the badgering. And you don't undercut or invalidate the LD or their experience of sex. The HD in fact makes their decision based almost entirely on the LD's implicit view of the situation. If the LD doesn't know or won't or can't admit why they refrain from having frequent sex, you don't try to beat the reason out of them. You just walk away.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM's analysis sidesteps a crucial aspect of it all. Trend analysis.

Going from dating sex life to married sex life to parenting sex life to roommate sex life is not a step function. It generally happens on a continuum and is remarkably smooth. 

So the non LD is not really "badgering" until it's way too late and he / she does the math. And when the badgering starts there's a nice built in excuse to avoid sex altogether.

At that point the 180 and associated DIY acronyms are too little too late. 

And, like many historical conflicts, people have forgotten how or why they got there in the first place.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Sawney Beane said:


> Keep in mind that a lot of people have the expectation that spouses will do together what one partner enjoys, irrespective of whether the other partner likes it or not. Flawed? Definitely. Common? That too.
> 
> Not divorced mate, windowed. Mrs Beane was run over by a drunken and drugged driver in January 2013 :crying:


Wow, brother. So sorry for your loss.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

Sawney Beane said:


> Not divorced mate, windowed. Mrs Beane was run over by a drunken and drugged driver in January 2013 :crying:


I too am so very VERY sorry to hear this! I don't really know how you can manage being strong enough to loose your wife in that horrible way, and still wade through (and respond to) all of the sad stories here on TAM. You are a much stronger person than I could ever be!


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

john117 said:


> Going from dating sex life to married sex life to parenting sex life to roommate sex life is not a step function. It generally happens on a continuum and is remarkably smooth.


A very high percentage of those smooth continuous functions are in fact REVERSIBLE, whereas a step-function is NOT.

I promised I wouldn't post again until something significant happened. In my wildest dreams I could not have anticipated what happened last night: I told my wife about my FIRST post here on TAM (this thread). She knows that I've been occasionally reading TAM, looking for answers, but that I'd never actually posted our story before. I thought that she would be upset, and she probably would have, had I not begun to describe some of the things I learned from all of you in the short space of time since I started this thread. BTW: Please feel free to move it forward with your enlightening discussion, even though it's probably drifted a little off-topic.

I told her about badsanta, about MEM (even about the nickname "T2" - she LOVED that!). I talked about the "disconnect". We talked for about 2 hours both in and out of bed. It's not like we've NOT talked (endlessly - thus my username!). For some reason this time it was different. I think it was partly because of all the "karma" (otherwise know as "$hit") that's happened to us the past few years. It was certainly partly due to T2's father dying a couple of days ago (had been sick a long time so not totally unexpected, but still...). It was partly due to some things our current MC said. Mainly it was due to ME somehow seeing things differently. I don't know how to explain it other than it was like putting on my glasses. Everything went from blurry to sharply focused and clear.

What counts is this though: T2 initiated one of the most intimate sexual experiences we've had. I won't say it was the best from a "MEM's mechanic's" stand-point, far from it. Somehow though all the emotion that went into it just swept us both away. T2 then looked at me and said "I love you SO much. Why is it we don't do this more often?" WTF? Was the problem ME all along? Did I just not see the signs? I don't know how long this will last. We still have a LOT of work to do (and we DID talk about that too - T2's response was "one day at a time, and each day will be a little better than the last"). Thank you all AGAIN. REALLY!!! I wish I could buy you all a "virtual" keg of a nice microbrew! I'll probably not be updating to frequently because how often can this kind of stuff happen???


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

When real communication begins taking place, this happens more than you would ever believe.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Thanks everyone.

It (very slowly) becomes less horrible. I came back here because I put a toe in the dating pool and was horrified and underwhelmed by the miserable quality of the sex I was finding.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Congrats.

For me, the spirit of the encounter is more important than the mechanics. The mechanics matter more in the way they reflect the underlying spirit - if that makes any sense. 




TooMuchTalk said:


> A very high percentage of those smooth continuous functions are in fact REVERSIBLE, whereas a step-function is NOT.
> 
> I promised I wouldn't post again until something significant happened. In my wildest dreams I could not have anticipated what happened last night: I told my wife about my FIRST post here on TAM (this thread). She knows that I've been occasionally reading TAM, looking for answers, but that I'd never actually posted our story before. I thought that she would be upset, and she probably would have, had I not begun to describe some of the things I learned from all of you in the short space of time since I started this thread. BTW: Please feel free to move it forward with your enlightening discussion, even though it's probably drifted a little off-topic.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Beautiful post, TMT. I love it when spouses open their hearts to each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> When real communication begins taking place, this happens more than you would ever believe.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


And if real communication does happen, this means the original issue was not fully understood...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

For proof:



> T2 then looked at me and said "I love you SO much. Why is it we don't do this more often?" WTF? Was the problem ME all along? Did I just not see the signs? I don't know how long this will last. We still have a LOT of work to do (and we DID talk about that too - T2's response was "one day at a time, and each day will be a little better than the last").


You mentioned years of therapy, largely an exercise in futility. Ten years of psych education has taught me that people rarely change, even when they have to for obvious reasons. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they THINK they do. Sometimes they PRETEND they do.

It's heartwarming to read such a change (not as common as you think in TAM especially among longtime LD scenarios) and I'll offer you one piece of advise only. At some point, maybe six months into it, if the little bits of improvement materialize in a consistent manner, you'll need to work out the problem of why all this happened.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TMT,
I can tell you what I focus on - relentlessly - and then you can decide whether that applies to your situation. 

When M2's words and actions are contradictory - I gently, softly, tenaciously force the issue. 

That disconnect - has been the hallmark of your situation for a long, long time. 

During the first half of our marriage - this created intense - oft ugly - conflict. 

We have gotten a lot better at it over time. So now - I'm likely to say what's true - in the fewest possible words. 

I point to her head, then her heart while saying: What's in there (head) and there (heart) are opposing reactions. 

Then I shut up. Time is your friend in these cases - as patience shows that you have faith this will all work out ok - when it works out. 

But patience doesn't equate to pretending that you are ok with the situation. So after some time - absent a response I add a brief comment. 

About that thing - from before - when what I'm hearing is completely different than what I'm seeing - makes me very uncomfortable. 

And then as needed: The barrier here is trust, why is that? 

Meaning - why don't you trust me enough to say what's what. 

The art to all this - is in the tone and pacing. Too fast and M2 feels like I don't trust HER to do the right thing. Too slow, and she may pretend the discussion never happened in the hope it will go away. 

The tone is completely soothing - not just the vocals but the facial expression and body language. 

And that tone - cannot change - if what you hear is difficult. So assume it will be - and pre program your response. My reflexive response is: I'm really glad you told me that. 

Eventually I have a content response. But the 'in the moment' reaction is acceptance - and gratitude....






TooMuchTalk said:


> A very high percentage of those smooth continuous functions are in fact REVERSIBLE, whereas a step-function is NOT.
> 
> I promised I wouldn't post again until something significant happened. In my wildest dreams I could not have anticipated what happened last night: I told my wife about my FIRST post here on TAM (this thread). She knows that I've been occasionally reading TAM, looking for answers, but that I'd never actually posted our story before. I thought that she would be upset, and she probably would have, had I not begun to describe some of the things I learned from all of you in the short space of time since I started this thread. BTW: Please feel free to move it forward with your enlightening discussion, even though it's probably drifted a little off-topic.
> 
> ...


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

Thank all (esp. MEM) for yet more good advice. Being an engineer (and thus naturally cynical by nature and profession), I have to think this had a LOT to do with T2's father's death. Her mother died a few years ago, and there are no close relatives within 3000 miles of us. She's leaving for a week to attend the funeral, while I'm here with the kids. It's OK if that's what, at least in part, caused this. I'll take it from this point, and see if I can keep this direction going, with the help of what I've learned here at TAM and elsewhere. I think I am going to "fire" our $200/hr MC though. T2 and I can get a sitter and have a fairly descent meal and modest bottle of wine for what she charges for an hour!

Just couldn't stay away from TAM (do I have a new addiction I need to worry about now?). Truth be told, T2 said she's a little tired (and sore!) tonight. But, and this has almost NEVER happened before, she apologized for not being able to "do anything" tonight. I read in another post about a guy getting his first "stand-alone BJ", totally unsolicited from his wife of 24 years?!? Yeah, I wonder if I should start looking for a "pod" too!!! Is there something astronomical (weird planetary position or something) going on that I missed? Did North Korea deploy a massive pheromone cloud over the U.S.? I know, shut up and enjoy! This is just too weird though. Maybe for once I'd best not over analyze this and just roll with it (and do whatever I can to keep it going)! Cheers...


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## TooMuchTalk (Mar 15, 2016)

*6 Month Update: Done everything but the leavin'*

So, I've stayed away from TAM for the past 6 months, mostly per my wife's request. I last posted in March that I'd post an update in 6 months or so. Here it is:

Looks like almost everyone gets to say "I told you so!". I was really hoping that things would work out. I think that I, at least, tried my best to be patient and understanding. Unfortunately I don't have the self-control that MEM suggested would be required (and he was right)! We've had some horrific arguments, including in front of the kids. The whole family is now pretty much as dysfunctional as it gets. Unfortunately those arguments weren't followed by passionate "make up" sex (guess that's really only found in erotic lit.). Instead, they were followed by some very destructive actions on both our parts. In the most recent "episode", my wife took the kids to a hotel for a week because I refused to be kicked out of my own house.

Anyway, it looks like I'll not be visiting this forum much, at least not to post (will probably skim a few posts though...). Instead, it appears I'm going to be getting my next advice from the various "Talk about Divorce..." forums. I'm a child of divorce (my wife isn't), so I know just how damaging it can be to kids. I'll do what I can to try and minimize the pain for everyone, but I think right now I just need to be about 3000 miles away from here - on the opposite coast.

What happened? In a nutshell, it appears to be the usual story of LD/HD: My wife simply couldn't comprehend that I would be willing to leave my kids, my house, my marriage, EVERYTHING, throw everything I/we have worked for these past 20 years together over something as "stupid" as our sex life. I've realized that no matter what I do or say, she will simply NEVER understand how I feel. We've talked endlessly for 2+ years (not much the past 6 months though). I even tried to get her to go to our 4th marriage counselor, before I read Laura Doyle's _"First, Kill All the Marriage Counselors"_ book. I went myself to a Psychiatrist (as in with an MD degree - charges a heck of a lot more that a PhD MFC did too). I read a few more books, and stayed up lots of late nights either reading or thinking about what to do. Most of that time the wife slept (usually in the guest room) like a baby. That, even though I know she's been in emotional turmoil too!?!?

I'm at the point where the stress and emotional pain is quite literally (slowly) killing me. My wife makes the same claim. She's suggested we take a break for 3 months or so. What she means is that I move out and don't contact her or the kids for that time. Of course I will continue paying the bills with my direct deposit $ appearing regularly in our joint account (she hasn't worked the past 2 years and is finding it very hard to explain that "gap" to potential employers). I don't think she comprehends how difficult life will be as a single mom with two kids in private school, living in one of the highest cost-of-living areas in the country, even with child support and (possibly) spousal support. We live in a community property state, which means (as I understand it anyway) that there is very little leeway for family court judges to deviate from a 50-50 split of debts and assets. She's convinced that she'll keep the house (just without me in it!). I'm going to talk with an arbitration lawyer specializing in non-judicial, no-conflict divorces (who knew such a think existed?). I've already been told just how much even a non-contested, arbitrated divorce filing is going to cost. Could have taken the wife on a couple of REALLY nice vacations for $15k. I tried to explain that to her, but she's not hearing anything I have to say. I guess in the past 6 months, I've threatened with the "D" word enough times that she think's I'm just "crying wolf". Not this time...

Sorry to disappoint! I really was hoping we'd be one of the few to beat the odds...


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't think anyone here would be cruel enough to want to say, "told you so." I believe we mostly hope for the best outcome, whatever that may look like. 

You need to look out for yourself and your children now. Although you were a child of divorce, do you believe things would have been better for anyone if your parents had stayed together?

Stay diplomatic, do not engage her unless it's about the kids. Be good to them and stay active in their lives. Get the divorce rolling. Heal and work on yourself. No alcohol, no sugar, plenty of water, exercise, and sleep. No more fights. If she yells, disengage and walk away. Remember that anger is still a form of emotional investment. By remaining calm as a cucumber, you send the stronger message of indifference.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

sounds like you've done all you can. Yup, she doesn't get it. Some people just don't. It is what is it.

When the fights are happening in front of the kids, its time to get out. Proceed with D and don't waiver. Stop worrying about the money and possessions, as they didn't provide you with the life and joy you were seeking anyway, or you wouldn't be here.

Good move not leaving YOUR house. Now you need to stop letting her yank the kids out of the house as well. If she wants, she can leave next time alone.


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