# My god, help.....



## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

We have been married (common law) for 8 years, have been together on and off for 11 years. In the past 8 years we've had 4 awesome kids, the oldest is 6 the youngest 8 months. 

I work, she stays at home. My salary is not enough to live any kind of a high-life, but it is enough to pay all the bills, insurance, keep a vehicle running, pay the mortgage etc. Neither of us use drugs, neither of us have cheated. I spend ALL of my free-time at home with her and the kids. 

The problem: She is always in one of three states as concerns me and they are never consistent and do not follow any kind of pattern: 
1. Utter hatred: She refuses to talk period. I tell her I need to have a talk and would be happy to talk any time that is good for her and she says, "no", if I just start talking she either blatantly ignores me or tells me in a very irritated tone that she is busy. In this state she refuses to do anything with me at all, even just sit and watch tv. No affection, in fact there is a marked physical repulsion, like if we have to squeeze through the same tight area while in passing she will either stand on the other side and wait for me to pass through, or she will go out of her way to avoid even brushing against me as we pass. If I do something like put my hand on her shoulder she pulls away and gives me a dirty look. 
2. Medium hatred: She will impose a time to talk and she does all the talking. If I talk she rolls her eyes and doesn't respond to anything I've said. She complains allot in this state and is very vocal about how unhappy she is and how terrible everything is. She will do nothing with me other than talk AT me. These 'conversations' are always about something 'nescessary', like the kids, or the bills or one of our pets. Again, no physical affection. If I put my hand on her arm or shoulder she does not pull away but she gives me a kind of hard look and I can feel her muscles tense and recoil at my touch.
3. Mild Hatred: She will talk and will listen a little bit so we have something like a conversation. But it is totally one sided and I better agree with anything she has to say. In this state she will occasionally call me 'hun' and even display some mild affection like putting her hand on my shoulder for a brief second or actually making physical contact when she has to squeeze through some tight spot we are both trying to get through at the same time. In this phase she is willing to go so far as play a card game or watch a tv show with me. Our 'talk' during the show or card game is 'small talk'. 

She has been in one of these three phases for the past two weeks. I have done everything I can think of to try and make it better. Talking (obviously that doesn't work) getting up super early and getting the kids up, making her and everyone breakfast, letting her sleep in. This often works to attain at least only medium hatred. But it isn't consistent. I have been cleaning the house...pretty much doing everything for her other than watching the kids while I am at work. Because I do have to work late sometimes (my shift 3pm to 11pm, when I work late it often goes till 3am in the morning), sometimes I sleep in. I have to. If I don't get home from work until 4am how can I possibly get up at 8am? 

Before all of this she was always inconsistent in her moods and affections but the hatred phases usually only lasted a day or two at the most. Otherwise she used to be very affectionate, talkative, always wanting to do something with me. 

We DID have a bad week leading up to a massive fight in which I threatened to leave and she stood there crying. But later that same day we talked it out, I apologized for saying something so stupid, that I would NEVER leave her no matter what etc. She seemed fine and she also apologized for the things she said during that fight (things that were just as bad as what I said). So I thought everything was 'ok'. Just a rough patch we would work through. But the day after we made up, she went into this tail-spin where she is in one of those three modes of hatred ALL THE TIME. 

I don't get it. It is like she has committed to giving up on everything while I have committed to making it work. She is on the computer 24/7 either playing video games (mostly) or doing her school work (she is working on a degree online). 

Even more background- I know there are some things that make her miserable: The kids are ALLOT to deal with, an infant and three toddlers. Her grandmother is living with us and this elderly lady is incredibly demanding, complaining, and very very very filthy. Filthy to the point where she regularly soils her bed with feces, her bathroom with feces and then yells for my wife to come clean it all up- which she does faithfully. I understand that makes her miserable but she fails to understand that I did not have to agree to let the grandmother move in. We just moved into this house four months ago and the 'move granny in' question was asked shortly before that. I could have (should have!) just been the jerk and said "no". 

That is something else- my wife makes important decisions and I go with them out of respect for her as an equal and as someone who's judgment I can trust. Then the decision turns out to be really bad and I end up paying the price for it. 

This has happened often before; once she asked if one of her old friends could live with us for a few days to get back on her feet. It was supposed to last a week and the lady was supposed to help my wife with everything. The lady helped her with nothing at all, did not clean up after herself, did nothing. I took it on myself to get the lady signed in at a temp agency that pays by the day and ALWAYS has work, drove the lady around to about 3 dozen places filling out applications etc. I did everything I could. Finally my wife begged me to kick her friend out because my wife didn't have the heart to. So I did! I left her at a motel a few miles away with $250.00 and told her we did everything we could for her, now it is up to her to get herself together. There are other examples, but this post is already to long. The grandmother moving in is just one example of where I should have made a decision for the family and instead treated my wife as an equal and trusted her decision making ability. Bad idea! 

The job I work has weird hours, but it also allows me to call home as much and for as long as I want, and even to GO HOME and spend an hour or two at home with the family. So it is not like I am just gone all day and most the night. I am in regular phone contact and even stop at the house at least once for an hour or more every day. 

What am I supposed to do. I love my wife and am absolutely committed and determined to make this work. But she doesn't seem to care about me or anything. The kids are picking up on this and it is starting to affect them. She has only been like this for two weeks but I HAVE TO MAKE IT STOP, and I have no idea how. 

Ok, sorry for the length of the post but I had to get that out. If anyone has any advice on what I can do please do respond!

edit/ps: I am starting to think I just need to be jerk and pick fights with her until she gets it all out of her system. I have been nothing but SWEET to her the past two weeks-felt like garbage after that last fight and adjusted my attitude to my conscience, and as a result have been feeling great about myself while watching her almost literally wither. Maybe I need to start an argument, be a jerk, make some mistakes...who knows I am running out of ideas.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

Not to make this even longer but there is some more information- at night when we sleep, before she goes to sleep and when she first wakes up she stays away from me, won't make any contact at all. But when she is asleep or even half asleep she is wrapped around me, her head planted firmly in or on my chest, her arms around me. I cherish these little moments like gold. I don't know if she knows its even me next to her (she is sleeping after all), but it is nice and gives me a little bit of hope. 

Also- our sex life up until this point has been fine. We have had problems in the past though- she has felt she wasn't getting it enough, and I felt the quality wasn't there. She wanted sex pretty much every single day, always with her just laying there not doing anything, in the dark with hours of kissing and rubbing, not actual foreplay, literally just kissing and rubbing arms and legs etc. I wanted more foreplay and something other than her on her back in the dark. If I would have had what I wanted, we probably would have done it every day. As it has been though, we only did two or three times a week. Not at all in the past two weeks though (of course).

Also, I look better and am in better physical condition than any time in my life. My job demands high physical performance and I have packed on 50 pounds of muscle (no exaggeration) in the past few years. I do not have a perfectly flat stomach but I get compliments on everything else (chest, arms, shoulders, butt, legs, package, face etc). I get more female attention than ever before, which I politely decline, even when she is nowhere around.

I keep editing as I work this out in my mind and heart. I look better than ever. She had 4 kids and looks fantastic to me, but is really really sensitive about how she looks now (she just turned 29). Just recently she started wearing makeup and stuff (she never wore makeup before, she is really naturally beautiful with a great complexion etc). Is it somehow possible that she feels bad about how she looks, is jealous of the attention I get, and that's why she wanted sex every single day (with the lights off)? 

Allot to think about. Any advice or thoughts what so ever, please speak up!


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Granny needs to move into a home.

But don't blame your wife for making bad decisions if you didn't chime in. If it is an equal partnership, you don't just accept what the other person plans if it is a bad idea. You discuss options and you decide from amongst them together.

If you passively allow something, you are still a part of the decision-making process. Everything is as much on your head as it is on hers so don't pass that buck.

But Granny needs to go. I don't see any other way.  It is simply too much for your wife to cope with.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

dobo said:


> Granny needs to move into a home.


And... you need to be firm with her. Stop letting her make all the decisions. So what if she throws a tantrum for the first few weeks until she gets used to the new you. 

You see, she is living in a private hell. She desperately wants someone to show her boundaries. But by walking on eggshells and constantly accommodating her, you do the opposite. If you stood up to her and said NO a little more often, although she would shout at you, she would actually feel relieved.

If you TELL her, "granny has to go", she will feel unburdened of the guilt - it will be your fault not hers. That's what she wants.


> I apologized for saying something so stupid, that I would NEVER leave her no matter what etc.


Bad move. Never tell someone this. It's bad negotiation tactics. If she knows that your bottom line is total oblivion (yours that is), she will take you there. Better to let her know there is a line in the sand.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks for the replies! So you both concur it is granny just making her miserable and that exacerbates everything else? 

We have discussed it 3 times (before she stopped talking to me) and one out of the three times she agreed with me and started making plans in her head about granny moving in with the brother, out from us. The other two times she has adamantly and angrily refused. 

I think I stopped giving so much input in the decision making process when I got tired of fighting. I guess fighting being a part of things, can't give up on a part and expect the whole to stay healthy for too long. 

Still though, she won't talk to me and I am crushed. I have to at least get her to talk in order to convey the message that granny has to go.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

MarkTwain said:


> And... you need to be firm with her. Stop letting her make all the decisions. So what if she throws a tantrum for the first few weeks until she gets used to the new you.


Actually, I have done this before and yes it has worked like a charm. Tantrums yes, but generally improved quality of life for her afterward. 



> You see, she is living in a private hell. She desperately wants someone to show her boundaries. But by walking on eggshells and constantly accommodating her, you do the opposite. If you stood up to her and said NO a little more often, although she would shout at you, she would actually feel relieved.


I think you are right. We actually had a little bit of an argument tonight and she interacted with me more than she has for the past few days. 



> If you TELL her, "granny has to go", she will feel unburdened of the guilt - it will be your fault not hers. That's what she wants.
> 
> Bad move. Never tell someone this. It's bad negotiation tactics. If she know that your bottom line is total oblivion (yours that is), she will take you there. Better to let her know there is a line in the sand.


Ok, you are right but how do I pull this off without making it sound like an ultimatum (granny or me)? Lets say it does sound like an ultimatum and she goes for it with a tantrum. That's fine. Lets say she just doesn't go for it and tells me to move out if I don't like it and doesn't budge? I won't move out. 

Honestly, granny being here means her family is here ALLOT and the more she is around her mother and brother....well you know, it just ruins her attitude. Getting granny out would kill allot of birds with a single stone. This is also a flip house, and I am just a few months away from finishing it- we planned on buying, moving in, renovating, selling a profit and moving out. In the space of a year. When we move I can just refuse to take granny with us. 

Who knows, but I am getting desperate. Maybe sooner is better. Apparently granny isn't too happy either. I wish I would have been perceptive enough to nip this in the bud a couple of months ago. I just hope it is not too late. I will never quit on this but living with a beautiful woman who gave birth to all your kids, feeling all kinds of affection (and the need for) and being completely hated by that woman is getting to be a real hell.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

update- I have been doing allot of thinking and soul-searching and the more I do, the more mad I get. Part of the problem here is me allowing myself to be walked on and treated like dirt. I don't care if your mad at someone, you acknowledge their existence, even with a stern 'hello' when they come home at the end of the day. She fails to do this and though she has always been 'socially challenged', it cuts especially deep especially now. 

I guess marriage tends to make you face deep-seated things about yourself. I am always a softy for women and kids. Now I am feeling like our relationship is dead, totally dead, like I made a mistake choosing her as a life-partner, and like I want to just walk away from the lot of them and sart over again with someone else.

I won't do that. I have her only hating me a little for the past few days but the price is I am starting to hate her. Hate as in resentment, disgust, ill-will. I will do my best to not hate her because right now that would be the end of everything. 

I just need to grow a pair where she is concerned, do right by my family and stick with my guns.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Remember, you allowed this so dont' get mad at her. Just do what needs to be done and don't make things worse, which is surely what you are doing, by stirring up new problems.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Commited1 said:


> update- I have been doing allot of thinking and soul-searching and the more I do, the more mad I get. Part of the problem here is me allowing myself to be walked on and treated like dirt.


This is a welcome development. You probably need to get angry. When you really put your finger on it, you will probably find it is anger at yourself, for having let it happen. But the good news is, if part of it is your fault, then you can fix that part. 

Even if it's too late for the current marriage, you will be a better person in the next.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

MarkTwain said:


> This is a welcome development. You probably need to get angry. When you really put your finger on it, you will probably find it is anger at yourself, for having let it happen. But the good news is, if part of it is your fault, then you can fix that part.
> 
> Even if it's too late for the current marriage, you will be a better person in the next.


Everything you are saying is true. We have talked today, her and I. I will admit to having done her wrong through consistent neglect (not wanting to talk to or be around her, but being civil and affectuionate none the less) for many many days, maybe months. 

I asked her if we are done, if she made the decision that we are done. She said that at the moment she feels like we are done. I told her it is not an at the moment type thing, either we are done or we are not. I further defined 'we are done' by saying that means done forever with no chance at reconciliation or commitment to each other. 

The thing is I am not a two marriage person. I am a commited 1 marriage person. What I don't get is why she doesn't get the same idea: commit to the idea that we are together forever, sometimes it will suck, sometimes it will be good and it will be good more than it sucks if we are both commited. She won't commit to that, says she has tried and it just brings her pain. 

Ya, I am really mad that I made the decision to start a family with her. WTF was I thinking. Now there are other people (our children!!!!!) involved. 

I don't know what to do. I am not going to leave her and am not going to stop trying to make this work. She even said, we both promised over and over in the past that we stay together and keep trying no matter what, unless one of us cheated or become physically abusive to the other or one of the kids. 

Loyalty and devotion??? wtf....how can a person possibly predict this kind of thing, especially when their mate promises over and over again those kinds of things. 

Ya, I am real mad.


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## Sven (Nov 18, 2009)

I honestly don't think words can be anything but harmful in a relationship crisis. I'm not a professional, but this is just my experience.

Listen. Do the stuff that YOU KNOW needs to be done (fix, clean, etc.). And don't say a thing if it's not positive. And don't struggle to find words - if they aren't there, then don't say anything.

Hell, I'm rambling. What do I know?


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

Sven said:


> I honestly don't think words can be anything but harmful in a relationship crisis. I'm not a professional, but this is just my experience.
> 
> Listen. Do the stuff that YOU KNOW needs to be done (fix, clean, etc.). And don't say a thing if it's not positive. And don't struggle to find words - if they aren't there, then don't say anything.
> 
> Hell, I'm rambling. What do I know?


Sven, there is allot to what you are saying. When a person feels neglected, starved for affection and attention, they come off as mopey and needy. I am going to post an update that explains what has happened in the last two days in detail. Suffice to say, I got mad, I told her what I felt and what I know to be rationally TRUE, that she needs to snap the f out of her own internal over-indulgent drama and back to reality and her own integrity which she always claimed was the foundation of her actions and being- told her I would BE HERE FOR HER to help with this if she only asks, but otherwise will step back from her and give her space to plot her next move. 

After that, I gave her polite silence- no more initiating conversations or giving her puppy-dog eyes when she won't talk to me. And guess what! After a few hours of this, some spontaneous and light-hearted conversation erupted, and we both made each other laugh till our bellies hurt. This culminated in some play-fighting wrestling and her biting my neck "kind of lightly" which lead to some pretty passionate kissing, which in turn would have lead to foreplay, but I drew away at that point, she grabbed me back with both arms and just held me against her chest in a tight warm hug for about 10 minutes. I finally broke away from that, slowly and gently and left her looking at me and smiling, a little bewildered smile. 

Sven, this chick has always been about actions over words. She is the least verbally communicative person I have ever known. 

Thanks bro, for your thoughts, you probably know allot more than you think and I value your input!


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

update! 

Pattern: She gets a little closer to me then suffers a kind of internal backlash and distances herself from me, doing and saying things which are designed to push me away. Next cycle she gets even closer and there is more backlash. Repeat cycle. As this happens, she gets closer each time and withdraws a little less back. IMO she is on the path back to me but doesn't trust herself or me enough to just jump fully into it. 

Thats ok, it is how she is reconciling in a way she can handle and is comfortable with. What I need to do is to not give her a legitimate reason to choose to draw back, but a really legitimate reason to keep coming closer. In the end, it is all her choice, and either her strength or her weakness will prevail. I trust in her strength. She has a mile long freight train packed full of emotional baggage from traumas she suffered prior to meeting me and there is no way she would have come through being the genuinely decent person she is without some kind of internal strength and commitment to her integrity as an individual. 

There are no guarantees here, we are definitely not yet in the clear and may never be. I am finding it difficult to restrain m,y own anger and have been venting on the punching bag and chores outside the house, rather than directing it at her. 

There was a moment of clarity and liberation yesterday when I told her whats up. Essentially this: "You said we keep trying and never give up no matter what, the only exceptions being physical abuse, infidelity, abuse of the kids; you think WAY too much about things and way over dramatize then in your head. You don't want to deal with pain, well guess what, life IS pain interrupted by occasional moments of joy and pleasure- the best you can do is maintain your integrity as a person, commit to a life partner that will have you back ALWAYS (as I have) and will be loyal to the end (as I have been). No matter who you end up being with, they will not be perfect as I am not perfect, they will cause you pain, as I have caused you pain, but you know that very few people will cause less pain than I have or will BE THERE FOR YOU as I have. I DO love you, and will always love you and will never give up on this. But I will back away from you now and give you space to breath and decide what you are going to do." I then sent her the lyrics for "Pigs on the Wing parts 1 and 2" with the note: "This is all I really want, it is really this simple. Those lyrics go:

_If you didn't care what happened to me,
And I didn't care for you,
We would zig zag our way through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain.
Wondering which of the buggars to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing._

_You know that I care what happens to you,
And I know that you care for me to,
So we don't feel alone,
Or the weight of the stone,
Now that we've found somewhere safe
To bury our bones.
And any fool knows a dog needs a home,
A shelter from pigs on the wing._

After that no more attempts at conversation, no more hurt looks when she ignores me or heavy sighs or attempts to be affectionate with her. And then, magically, after a few hours of this, spontaneous light-hearted conversation erupted, which turned into play wrestling/fighting, which turned into her biting my neck, which lead to us kissing passionately. Before it went any further I drew away, and she pulled me back into a tight hug against her chest that lasted about 10 minutes straight. No words. I slowly and gently pulled out of that hug and left her with a little smile and bewildered look on her face. 

We woke up this morning facing each other. She put her elbow in my chest and pushed playfully. So I put my arm over her face an pushed a little. She knee'd me in the chest and we ended up wrestling. Then the kids woke up and came into the room and that was all over. Told the kids to leave the room and I told her she was lucky the kids came in to save her from the embarrassment of me rejecting her sexual advances. She scoffed and said that if she had sex with me or anyone else in the future it wouldn't be all elbows and knees. 

Ok that part about "if I have sex with you _or anyone else_..." kind of hurt (I would NEVER say that to her) but really it is her reaction to coming closer to me- to get freaked out and try to push me away. 

I come home tonight from work and clean up the house a little for her, put the kids to bed, and she is (again as always) with her face in the computer playing videogames and chatting on yahoo messenger. I said, "Hello!" and she said hi. I didn't touch her or even move towards her or even look at her directly but went about my business. So there she is in the drawing away phase again, but thats ok. 

Tonight, at work, I am thinking I don't need my kids growing in an environment where 'it is ok' for one person to ignore another person and generally blow them off when they greet you. But she has always been rude like that. Coupled with the recent problems, its real irritating and there is none of the normal corresponding affection (like she never says "Hi hun how was your day and stops what she is doing to talk to me for a minute, she never had done that, ever, but before the past few weeks, after I had been home a few minutes she would take a break from what she was doing and hug and kiss me and make me something to eat). So it balanced out. 

But still, the fact that she seems/seemed ready to throw the towel in on everything after making a commitment to me and starting a family with me (4 young kids!!!), is a big red flag and really makes me question the reality of who I chose as a life mate. 

So I will spend the next few months getting things right with myself, and if she doesn't get things right with her it goes to the next level.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

A massive stroke of luck- one of her best friends happens to be a marriage councelor, and this older gentleman kindly treated us to a 5 hour chat session last night. Won't go too far into the details now, but he has outlined a very structured way for us to work towards making our marriage not only stable, but also flourishing. It is a very reasonable plan and we both have agreed to it. Unfortunately, part of the plan is no sex for three months (!!!), but that is some we had to agree to to get the plan started. 

My wife has dropped the silence routine and I am getting a tidal wave of attention and affection, which she explains she had been holding back and had been turning to anger (reacting to feelings of affection for me with anger, pain etc). I realized she needs to trust me with certain things and she put that trust in my hands. 

The problem is the affection is pretty hot and we are going to have a really hard time keeping to the 3 monnth rule. But we gotta do it. 

I'll go more into detail later, but wanted to mention this latest development now. 

And yes, we agreed granny HAS TO GO. She is finally consistently agreeing with that. OMG. Thats an awesome thing.


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## Commited1 (Nov 13, 2009)

Major progress and the reason for her behavior the past month has come to light. I will post in a different topic because it kind of needs some feedback. But things are good! In a nutshell we both reaffirmed our commitment to each other while amending the 'constitution' of our marriage and overall relationship. We are each holding up to our ends so far but there is still much work to be done!


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