# What would the response be?



## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

A marriage is supposed to include a sex life. Yet so many spouses refuse to participate in that aspect of the marriage. Would those spouses be happier if you offered to get your sexual needs taken care of outside the marriage? Has anyone asked this question and if so what was the response? Are there any spouses here that were or are denying their partners sexual fulfillment. How would you have reacted if you were asked this question? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how this situation comes to pass and an even harder time understanding how it is tolerated for so long in many cases.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I asked. The reply was "no way. that would mean divorce".

Ironcially, he's the one that cheated on me. And probably was when I asked that question.


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## explode (Sep 4, 2011)

If I came right out and asked him to find another sexual partner, he would get offended. I have been watching sister wives and dropping hints about wanting a sister wife. He has responded. He just ignores me.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Beowolf - I'll one up you, read around to see how many "LD" wives hate porn and are really jealous types. You say "A marriage is supposed to include a sex life." An "LD" spouse might question that, say "sex does not mean love" or say "1x a month is a sex life and only a horn dog needs more gratification than that." Then say, porn is bringing someone else into the relationship, and makes them uncomfortable because it features young women doing unrealistic things. 

Low desire to have sex is a physical issue, low desire to make your spouse happy - that is what I (and seemingly you) do not grasp. If eating gold fish made my wife happy, I'd eat goldfish, not say no and tell her she is not allowed to go to the pet store or even watch other people eat goldfish. It is a divide in the understanding of what love and commitment means, like conservative/liberal divide - just incomprehensible what the other type is thinking. Except in a relationship, when there is a low desire to please person, the other suffers.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> Beowolf - I'll one up you, read around to see how many "LD" wives hate porn and are really jealous types. You say "A marriage is supposed to include a sex life." An "LD" spouse might question that, say "sex does not mean love" or say "1x a month is a sex life and only a horn dog needs more gratification than that." Then say, porn is bringing someone else into the relationship, and makes them uncomfortable because it features young women doing unrealistic things.
> 
> Low desire to have sex is a physical issue, low desire to make your spouse happy - that is what I (and seemingly you) do not grasp. If eating gold fish made my wife happy, I'd eat goldfish, not say no and tell her she is not allowed to go to the pet store or even watch other people eat goldfish. It is a divide in the understanding of what love and commitment means, like conservative/liberal divide - just incomprehensible what the other type is thinking. Except in a relationship, when there is a low desire to please person, the other suffers.


See that is exactly what I don't understand. I get high desire. I get low desire. But no desire? Plus regardless of what you want aren't you supposed to be thinking of your partner first? Just because you only want sex twice a month does that mean you can't do it more? Is it that bad being intimate with the person you want to share the rest of your life with? How horrible could it be?

My wife has never ever denied me sex unless legitimately sick. Even then sometimes she offers. And I try to provide my wife with the best of everything I can. I also show her affection because I know she needs it and it makes her happy. And that makes me happy. I sit and talk with her for hours because I know she needs the stimulation of conversation. It makes her happy and therefore it makes me happy. What I just cannot comprehend is that if something makes your spouse happy why not do it? Even if you don't understand it or it doesn't seem important to you. Maybe it even seems trivial or if you do it it makes you feel awkward. But if it makes your spouse happy why do you not do it?

I absolutely love to watch football. My wife doesn't like sports at all. And she loves football the least of all. She doesn't understand it at all. But when I would sit down and watch football she watched with me. She would even make cute little comments like "your a$$ is nicer than his," "I'll be your wide receiver tonight," and "is my end tighter than his?" Why does she sit down for hours at a time and watch a game she detests and even tries to make it fun for us? Because it makes me happy. And she is happy when I am happy.

I know my wife loves to go out to nice restaurants. But her one bad habit is that she always looks at the menu online before we go if she knows ahead of time where we're going. Now I can't really not tell her we're going out. She needs time to get ready. But now I don't tell her where we are going. She gets so frustrated and tries to guess or get me to give it away. She gets like a little kid on Christmas eve wondering what the gift box contains. She loves it. It's a little game we play. I spend all week thinking of ways to make it exciting and special for her. Why do I do it? Because I know she likes it and it makes her happy. And that makes me happy.

I just don't understand if you love someone why you would not do whatever it takes to make them happy. I always thought that was what love was.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I hated sex so much I once offered to hire a Prostitute for him, and I was dead serious.


When I still was sexually interested in my wife, this was the response I was most afraid of. 

My own take, if a spouse completely shuts down sexually without caring, I have zero sympathy if the other spouse cheats.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Beowolf - you are lucky (to be with someone who gets it). Counseler Hutz - not so much. Actually, not to far off from Phil Hartman's (the real Lionel Hutz) luck with women. 

But Lionel, you know it's not sex - it is the desire to make your spouse happy. Or the desire for your spouse. Sex is the byproduct of that, but if there were a physical limitation inhibiting or proventing sex, as long as those desires existed, happiness and fidelity would persist.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Iwant2bhappy said:


> I hated sex so much I once offered to hire a Prostitute for him, and I was dead serious.


Are you still with this husband?


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> But Lionel, you know it's not sex - it is the desire to make your spouse happy. Or the desire for your spouse. Sex is the byproduct of that, but if there were a physical limitation inhibiting or proventing sex, as long as those desires existed, happiness and fidelity would persist.


My point is, if the spouse is at the point of agreeing to okay prostitution, then I really wonder why you are still married.

I have had and continue to have female friends. If I wanted a pal I know where to find them. If I wanted to pick a roommate I would have had different criterion. 

If she said okay hire a prostitute, I would have said, instead of a prostitute, is it okay if I find a girlfriend? And after a while, I may want to move in with her. And instead of sharing your life, I will share her life and she will become my priority. But otherwise nothing will change and we are still definitely married.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> Beowolf - I'll one up you, read around to see how many "LD" wives hate porn and are really jealous types. You say "A marriage is supposed to include a sex life." An "LD" spouse might question that, say "sex does not mean love" or say "1x a month is a sex life and only a horn dog needs more gratification than that." Then say, porn is bringing someone else into the relationship, and makes them uncomfortable because it features young women doing unrealistic things.
> 
> Low desire to have sex is a physical issue, low desire to make your spouse happy - that is what I (and seemingly you) do not grasp. If eating gold fish made my wife happy, I'd eat goldfish, not say no and tell her she is not allowed to go to the pet store or even watch other people eat goldfish. It is a divide in the understanding of what love and commitment means, like conservative/liberal divide - just incomprehensible what the other type is thinking. Except in a relationship, when there is a low desire to please person, the other suffers.


Out of the park! 

Well, I do beg to differ about porn. I do not see why anything that goes on in porn between two people isn't realistic in a marriage bed or should not be expected to be "common" and this is why. 

In porn, a woman who doesn't care about the man in the least is a dirty, nasty willing partner ready to do anything for him with enthusiasm and a smile on her face. I think porn outta be considered tame compared to what's possible when the woman is crazy about the man she's with and wants to do whatever it takes to please him. That goes both ways...The sad thing is that porn exists because way too many bedrooms are borning and unfulfilling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> Out of the park!
> 
> Well, I do beg to differ about porn. I do not see why anything that goes on in porn between two people isn't realistic in a marriage bed or should not be expected to be "common" and this is why.
> 
> ...


There are things that go on in porn that are not resonable to expect a wife to do. A few that come to mind are 3 or more (group sex), anal sex, fisting.

In porn the women are paid to do things that are are sometimes painful and humilitating. Things are done on set to get the porn stars to do the paid-for acts... they are given drugs, numbing creams for anal sex and fisting. And like I said that are only a few that come to mind.

Porn stars are paid to smile and act enthusiastic about what they are doing. Without the money and the drugs they would not even be doing those things with the guy in the film.

There are all kinds of porn... some of it very distubing.

Porn exits for several reasons. It's sexual entertainment. It exists...

because men like looking (and so do some women) 

because a lot of men have no sex partners

Some have wives who do not fulfil them.

A lot of men who use porn have active and fulfilling sex lives with a partner... or they have a willing partner who they refuse to have sex with.. they just like porn.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Iwant2bhappy said:


> Yes, after 18 years of hell I finally came to my senses. But, I can't blame myself 100%. He needed to do more on his part also. We both now accept and forgive our wrongs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hope your sex life is better now.. or getting better.


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## WadeWilson (Jul 4, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> There are things that go on in porn that are not resonable to expect a wife to do. A few that come to mind are 3 or more (group sex), anal sex, fisting.
> 
> In porn the women are paid to do things that are are sometimes painful and humilitating. Things are done on set to get the porn stars to do the paid-for acts... they are given drugs, numbing creams for anal sex and fisting. And like I said that are only a few that come to mind.
> 
> There are all kinds of porn... some of it very distubing.


Good point... But some people go to those same extent to please their partner... Yet who's to truly say its porn influenced? 

My wife says I'm LD to her HD... I just say we're mismatched...

But in the past she's even made jokes about me getting it from somewhere else... And it was that... All jokes...
But only one incident stands out where I got angry at the comment... But little did I know at the time she was wound up in an EA...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WadeWilson said:


> Good point... But some people go to those same extent to please their partner... Yet who's to truly say its porn influenced?
> 
> My wife says I'm LD to her HD... I just say we're mismatched...
> 
> ...


There is an old saying that I live by. It goes something like.. 
"A woman should be a lady in the parlor and a ***** in the bedroom."

I believe that both spouses should be enthusiastically trying to please their spouse in the bedroon. Anything less is a sign of a big problem in the marriage.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> There are things that go on in porn that are not resonable to expect a wife to do. A few that come to mind are 3 or more (group sex), anal sex, fisting.
> 
> In porn the women are paid to do things that are are sometimes painful and humilitating. Things are done on set to get the porn stars to do the paid-for acts... they are given drugs, numbing creams for anal sex and fisting. And like I said that are only a few that come to mind.
> 
> ...


Anal sex does not have to be painful and its not humiliating. I had a gf who liked both and requested it. Some people like some pain in sex, even humiliation...its not for everyone. I qualified my statement with sex between two people, not a group. I stand by my assertion that sex between two people who love and care for each other outta make anything going on in porn pale by comparison.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> Out of the park!
> 
> Well, I do beg to differ about porn. I do not see why anything that goes on in porn between two people isn't realistic in a marriage bed or should not be expected to be "common" and this is why.
> 
> ...


What I was saying was the LD spouse hates porn and thinks its unrealistic. "Oh sure, she wants to have sex with him, even though the lights are on and she has not checked pinterest in 10 minutes." Rational people, outside of addicts, should have no issue with porn. But, I find it disproportionate that spouses that deny their partners sex, also hate porn.


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## LadyFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> See that is exactly what I don't understand. I get high desire. I get low desire. But no desire? Plus regardless of what you want aren't you supposed to be thinking of your partner first? Just because you only want sex twice a month does that mean you can't do it more? Is it that bad being intimate with the person you want to share the rest of your life with? How horrible could it be?
> 
> My wife has never ever denied me sex unless legitimately sick. Even then sometimes she offers. And I try to provide my wife with the best of everything I can. I also show her affection because I know she needs it and it makes her happy. And that makes me happy. I sit and talk with her for hours because I know she needs the stimulation of conversation. It makes her happy and therefore it makes me happy. What I just cannot comprehend is that if something makes your spouse happy why not do it? Even if you don't understand it or it doesn't seem important to you. Maybe it even seems trivial or if you do it it makes you feel awkward. But if it makes your spouse happy why do you not do it?
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a great marriage.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> Sounds like you have a great marriage.


I second that. If that were said to me, I'm pretty sure by mid sentence of the second comment, clothes would be flying and I wouldn't give a crap about anything other than scoring my own touchdown, field goal and definitely going for the two point conversion!


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Quote from Beowulf; "I just don't understand if you love someone why you would not do whatever it takes to make them happy. I always thought that was what love was."

Sadly, my wife smokes (cigarettes!)....I think its disgusting, I don't like it therefore cigarettes, lighters, ashtrays simply don't feature in my train of thought. I don't buy my wife cigarettes (which she enjoys) unless she specifically asks me to then I do it reluctantly and as INfrequently as I can....I just never think about it because its simply not 'me' atall.

I like and enjoy sex...my wife doesn't...so it simply doesnt feature in her train of thought. She doesnt have sex with me (which I enjoy) unless I ask her specifically then she does it reluctantly and as INfrequently as she can....she just never thinks about it because its simply not 'her' atall...


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

7737 said:


> Quote from Beowulf; "I just don't understand if you love someone why you would not do whatever it takes to make them happy. I always thought that was what love was."
> 
> Sadly, my wife smokes (cigarettes!)....I think its disgusting, I don't like it therefore cigarettes, lighters, ashtrays simply don't feature in my train of thought. I don't buy my wife cigarettes (which she enjoys) unless she specifically asks me to then I do it reluctantly and as INfrequently as I can....I just never think about it because its simply not 'me' atall.
> 
> I like and enjoy sex...my wife doesn't...so it simply doesnt feature in her train of thought. She doesnt have sex with me (which I enjoy) unless I ask her specifically then she does it reluctantly and as INfrequently as she can....she just never thinks about it because its simply not 'her' atall...


Apples and oranges buddy. Sex is not going to kill you and its not going to kill her. No one gets hurt with sex (unless the ask for it or are cheating). It's like comparing not giving sex to your partner with leaving the toilet seat up. It's just not in the same conversation.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> There are things that go on in porn that are not resonable to expect a wife to do. A few that come to mind are 3 or more (group sex), anal sex, fisting.
> 
> In porn the women are paid to do things that are are sometimes painful and humilitating. Things are done on set to get the porn stars to do the paid-for acts... they are given drugs, numbing creams for anal sex and fisting. And like I said that are only a few that come to mind.
> 
> ...


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

I have a spouse who has issues with porn and uses "that could be your daughter" line. Yes there is some of that and I understand it. I seldom look at it, but will not turn away from it at the same time.

BTW Married 20, living together 25+, children mid/late teens.

Conversely my wife is no prude. I am nowhere near HD reading what I do here on TAM, but my spouse is LD, in terms she doesn't think about sex.

However I keep coming back to the point I don't want to have sex with my wife if she is not into it and doesn't orgasm. Fortunately she does 90%+ of the time. So all I ask over and over, without an answer is why can't we have sex more often, as long as you are orgasming? Once it isn't working for you, I'm fine to stop or claw back. So if you are only up for sex 2X/wk (with orgasm), I'm great with that..... 3X/2 wk, still great..... I know there is no issue 1X/wk, so why can't we up that amount?

And no she does not want me finding someone else, tells me to go masturbate (using my imagination)

Beowolf congrats in getting your wife to watch football, like me tolerating NCIS, Criminal Minds, CSI's...... Which are all okay but not always my first choice of programming, but I watch because I like being with my wife. As said I can always be on the computer, reading a book/magazine......


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> See that is exactly what I don't understand. I get high desire. I get low desire. But no desire? Plus regardless of what you want aren't you supposed to be thinking of your partner first? Just because you only want sex twice a month does that mean you can't do it more? Is it that bad being intimate with the person you want to share the rest of your life with? How horrible could it be?
> 
> My wife has never ever denied me sex unless legitimately sick. Even then sometimes she offers. And I try to provide my wife with the best of everything I can. I also show her affection because I know she needs it and it makes her happy. And that makes me happy. I sit and talk with her for hours because I know she needs the stimulation of conversation. It makes her happy and therefore it makes me happy. What I just cannot comprehend is that if something makes your spouse happy why not do it? Even if you don't understand it or it doesn't seem important to you. Maybe it even seems trivial or if you do it it makes you feel awkward. But if it makes your spouse happy why do you not do it?
> 
> ...


Well written, and I give you my respect for putting into your relationship. It shows... as you are getting the same effort back. That's awesome!

I would guess to say that in about 50% of situations... one spouse is NOT making the other happy, and that results in a lack of sex. I do truly think that no sex is a sympton of something else. I say this because I think at least 50% of married couples are not aware of what "needs" are, how to coummunicate, and love languages. 

The other 50% would be medical, an affair, or busy lives with small children and demanding jobs. (Losing themselves in life and the relationship faulters for awhile).


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> A marriage is supposed to include a sex life. Yet so many spouses refuse to participate in that aspect of the marriage. Would those spouses be happier if you offered to get your sexual needs taken care of outside the marriage? Has anyone asked this question and if so what was the response? Are there any spouses here that were or are denying their partners sexual fulfillment. How would you have reacted if you were asked this question? *I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how this situation comes to pass and an even harder time understanding how it is tolerated for so long in many cases*.


There you go - the underlying problem isn't really sexlessness. I believe that sexlessness is typically just a symptom of something else - a broken relationship dynamic - that is going on in the marriage.

If you have long-term sexlesness, you have one person bowing out of the sexual relationship, BUT you have the other person going along with it - however grudgingly. BOTH have a responsibility to bear in creating, and ultimately rectifying, the situation.

Like they say - takes two to tango - but it also takes two to not.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There are things that go on in porn that are not resonable to expect a wife to do. A few that come to mind are 3 or more (group sex), anal sex, fisting.
> 
> In porn the women are paid to do things that are are sometimes painful and humilitating. Things are done on set to get the porn stars to do the paid-for acts... they are given drugs, numbing creams for anal sex and fisting. And like I said that are only a few that come to mind.
> 
> ...


I would never ask my wife to do anything that she did not want to. I actually don't watch porn and the few times I did we watched it together. Had to turn it off after a short time because the two of us couldn't stop laughing. My wife and I have experimented with different things but we did it in a mutually exploratory way. Sometimes things were interesting but not something we'd do again or regularly. Sometimes things were fun and we found them so enjoyable that we added them to our rotation. Sometimes things were very much not fun and we stopped and regrouped with more comfortable methodology. But it was always done in a loving and mutually agreeable way. Bottom line is that I personally think porn is just silly and not really arousing in any way. Maybe I'm not a real man? :scratchhead:


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

7737 said:


> Quote from Beowulf; "I just don't understand if you love someone why you would not do whatever it takes to make them happy. I always thought that was what love was."
> 
> Sadly, my wife smokes (cigarettes!)....I think its disgusting, I don't like it therefore cigarettes, lighters, ashtrays simply don't feature in my train of thought. I don't buy my wife cigarettes (which she enjoys) unless she specifically asks me to then I do it reluctantly and as INfrequently as I can....I just never think about it because its simply not 'me' atall.
> 
> I like and enjoy sex...my wife doesn't...so it simply doesnt feature in her train of thought. She doesnt have sex with me (which I enjoy) unless I ask her specifically then she does it reluctantly and as INfrequently as she can....she just never thinks about it because its simply not 'her' atall...


If you are equating smoking with sex I think you're way off base. Smoking is dangerous to your health and will eventually kill you. I can see not contributing to someone's addiction to cigarettes. Marital sex is a healthy and vibrant expression of love and togetherness. I don't know too many times where sex would be considered a health risk but if my wife tried to f*ck me to death I would gladly die with a smile on my face.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> I have a spouse who has issues with porn and uses "that could be your daughter" line. Yes there is some of that and I understand it. I seldom look at it, but will not turn away from it at the same time.
> 
> BTW Married 20, living together 25+, children mid/late teens.
> 
> ...


I have a different attitude about sex and orgasms. My wife usually does orgasm but sometimes she doesn't. She once told me a while ago that even when she doesn't have an orgasm she still enjoys sex. She says the closeness and the pleasure she gives me are almost as good (almost). So we agreed that if she wants to orgasm we go for it. If she feels that she probably won't get there she tells me to go to town (our code phrase). Quite often she ends up having an orgasm anyway but she would never not have sex because she doesn't think she'll have an orgasm.

And I never masturbate. Well, not alone. She told me years ago she would rather get me off than have me get myself off thinking about something other than her. That usually only happens when she has to abstain for some reason like when she's getting her pap smear the next day or if she has an infection.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> I have a different attitude about sex and orgasms. My wife usually does orgasm but sometimes she doesn't. She once told me a while ago that even when she doesn't have an orgasm she still enjoys sex. She says the closeness and the pleasure she gives me are almost as good (almost). So we agreed that if she wants to orgasm we go for it. If she feels that she probably won't get there she tells me to go to town (our code phrase). Quite often she ends up having an orgasm anyway but she would never not have sex because she doesn't think she'll have an orgasm.
> 
> And I never masturbate. Well, not alone. She told me years ago she would rather get me off than have me get myself off thinking about something other than her. That usually only happens when she has to abstain for some reason like when she's getting her pap smear the next day or if she has an infection.


You are the exception to the rule..... You get all the sex you want..... So why masturbate???? 

A lot of my fun is watching my wife get off and see her body respond. If she didn't it would not beas much fun.

Anyhow, what is, is...... I was just questioning as to why a spouse would not want it more often if it is mutually satisfying (and I equate satisfaction=orgasm, play along with it)???

Yes I understand the enjoyment in making your spouse over the moon with excitement and it being about them at times, but the majority of the time it should be mutually satisfying. jmo....


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Iwant - hated sex or hated sex with him? Was it a physical inability, e.g., painful? Abuse?

I said disproportionately - not, in every case.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> There you go - the underlying problem isn't really sexlessness. I believe that sexlessness is typically just a symptom of something else - a broken relationship dynamic - that is going on in the marriage.
> 
> If you have long-term sexlesness, you have one person bowing out of the sexual relationship, BUT you have the other person going along with it - however grudgingly. BOTH have a responsibility to bear in creating, and ultimately rectifying, the situation.
> 
> Like they say - takes two to tango - but it also takes two to not.


I am not sure I quite agree. For many men - those that need sex for intimacy and connecting with their wife - sex is the problem. For many women, I suspect it is a symptom of the problem.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

TAG
I would describe what you said... need sex for intimacy and connecting with their wife, as a broken relationship dynamic.

It is not communicated and understood as a need. By either party.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

deejov said:


> TAG
> I would describe what you said... need sex for intimacy and connecting with their wife, as a broken relationship dynamic.
> 
> It is not communicated and understood as a need. By either party.


Actually, if I understand TAG he is saying that it is extremely difficult for a man to communicate and understand his wife's needs unless there is some level of sexual connection between them. I tend to agree with that and most women don't see how that can be true.

I once heard a man's need for sex described in this way.

If you are a woman, think of the worst hormonal day you have ever had. Whether it was due to PMS, pregnancy, menopause, pre-menopause, or another cause. Now add to that the worst blinding migraine you've ever had. So bad that you can't even open your eyes. Now think of a pill that would have cured your misery about 20 minutes after you'd taken it.

That's what sex is to a man. It's hormonal (testosterone). But a man experiences it each and every day and the pill to cure his misery is sex with his wife. But in addition to the hormonal release, sex also allows a man to better focus and connect with his wife and her needs and issues. It lifts the blindness of the migraine.

That description always resonated with me but as another poster likes to say, your mileage may vary.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Ahhhh now I see what you are saying.
As a woman, I have the same mentality. If we are not having sex on a regular basis, the communication falls apart.

I am too blinded by not getting off to think clearly LOL


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## HaHa (Oct 1, 2010)

> I just don't understand if you love someone why you would not do whatever it takes to make them happy. I always thought that was what love was


:iagree:

I just don’t understand why a spouse would deny the other (man or woman) sex or intimacy. I understand that it can be because their needs are not being met, but I guess I have the mind frame that if I am denying my husband one of his basic needs (and for my husband it is), why would I be shocked if he was so unhappy that he went out looking to get that need met elsewhere? I know it’s probably not a popular opinion and I don’t think that cheating is *EVER* okay, but I don’t see why it would be surprising. I know that I am really blessed that I have a husband who strives to meet my needs as consistently as I meet his. Loving someone to me means not worrying about quid pro quo and trying daily to make their world a better place. 

Just to clarify - I am talking in "normal" (<---Is there such a thing? :rofl marriage where there is no abuse or addictions.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

HaHa said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I just don’t understand why a spouse would deny the other (man or woman) sex or intimacy. I understand that it can be because their needs are not being met, but I guess I have the mind frame that if I am denying my husband one of his basic needs (and for my husband it is), why would I be shocked if he was so unhappy that he went out looking to get that need met elsewhere? I know it’s probably not a popular opinion and I don’t think that cheating is *EVER* okay, but I don’t see why it would be surprising. I know that I am really blessed that I have a husband who strives to meet my needs as consistently as I meet his. Loving someone to me means not worrying about quid pro quo and trying daily to make their world a better place.
> 
> Just to clarify - I am talking in "normal" (<---Is there such a thing? :rofl marriage where there is no abuse or addictions.


Take away medical issues, small children, a busy life.
Two adults, who don't have huge stresses, or no kids.
All you have to worry about is keeping your spouse happy.

Call this group maybe 10% of the problem group.

I'd say there is about 5% of the problem group of women who just don't like sex.

In other words.. I believe the TRUTH is there is a very small group of spouses who fit into this category.

There is almost always a reason the lack of sex. It just isn't understood, or communicated.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am not sure I quite agree. For many men - those that need sex for intimacy and connecting with their wife - sex is the problem. For many women, I suspect it is a symptom of the problem.


I still think it's a broken relationship dynamic, inasmuch as you (generic you, not you specifically) are not able to communicate things in such a way that the other person understands.

Sex may very well be ONE person's primary concern and having it would fix one person's issue, but the underlying thing is that you have not been able to effectively communicate this in a way that the other can understand and respond to. [The other person also has to be open to this kind of communication. If they are not, again ... broken dynamic.] As well, the other person's underlying issue may still be unresolved, even if they do engage in sex. Without attending to that as well, the wheel still falls off the cart in time. The relationship is a dynamic, back and forth, ups and downs - almost like the act of sex itself.

A couple of good books that I have enjoyed are by Schnarch ("Passionate Marriage" and "Intimacy and Desire"). In them he uses the phrase that marriage is a "people building machine". Indeed, the dichotomy of trying to work together in a marriage so that both people are in relative harmoney while both of them often have contradictory and opposing views and needs is not lost on me.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I still think it's a broken relationship dynamic, inasmuch as you (generic you, not you specifically) are not able to communicate things in such a way that the other person understands.
> 
> Sex may very well be ONE person's primary concern and having it would fix one person's issue, but the underlying thing is that you have not been able to effectively communicate this in a way that the other can understand and respond to. [The other person also has to be open to this kind of communication. If they are not, again ... broken dynamic.] As well, the other person's underlying issue may still be unresolved, even if they do engage in sex. Without attending to that as well, the wheel still falls off the cart in time. The relationship is a dynamic, back and forth, ups and downs - almost like the act of sex itself.
> 
> A couple of good books that I have enjoyed are by Schnarch ("Passionate Marriage" and "Intimacy and Desire"). In them he uses the phrase that marriage is a "people building machine". Indeed, the dichotomy of trying to work together in a marriage so that both people are in relative harmoney while both of them often have contradictory and opposing views and needs is not lost on me.


While I don't disagree with most of this, I do think that for many men, sex is a critical type of communication within a marriage. Perhaps you did not intend it, but an interpretation of the post I responded to is that sex is not a type of comminication or connection, and thus is mere an extra to, not a part of, healthy communication and connection within a marriage.

I do agree that an active sex life within a marriage does not mean that every need is being met for each partner. But for many men, little or no sex means that at least one need is not being met.

To follow up on what Beowolf noted about, connecting with sex helps me want to connect with my wife in another ways. It makes it easier to want to meet her other needs. Not to say that I don't try to when we can't, but like in anything, when she is working to meet my needs I am spurred on to be an equal partner meeting her needs.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I still think it's a broken relationship dynamic, inasmuch as you (generic you, not you specifically) are not able to communicate things in such a way that the other person understands.
> 
> Sex may very well be ONE person's primary concern and having it would fix one person's issue, but the underlying thing is that you have not been able to effectively communicate this in a way that the other can understand and respond to. [The other person also has to be open to this kind of communication. If they are not, again ... broken dynamic.] As well, the other person's underlying issue may still be unresolved, even if they do engage in sex. Without attending to that as well, the wheel still falls off the cart in time. The relationship is a dynamic, back and forth, ups and downs - almost like the act of sex itself.
> 
> A couple of good books that I have enjoyed are by Schnarch ("Passionate Marriage" and "Intimacy and Desire"). In them he uses the phrase that marriage is a "people building machine". Indeed, the dichotomy of trying to work together in a marriage so that both people are in relative harmoney while both of them often have contradictory and opposing views and needs is not lost on me.


Of course there is also the relationship where people are unable to communicate their needs. My wife is not very good at expressing her needs to me. She can size you up and tear you down in a nanosecond but self analyzing is not her strong suit. I can usually tell by her body language and silent cues what she is feeling even when she can't communicate it herself. But if I weren't getting my sexual needs fulfilled regularly I'm not sure if I would be able to focus on meeting her unstated needs when I would probably be at least partially focused on my own unmet need. I'm just being completely open and honest.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

deejov said:


> Ahhhh now I see what you are saying.
> As a woman, I have the same mentality. If we are not having sex on a regular basis, the communication falls apart.
> 
> I am too blinded by not getting off to think clearly LOL


For me, that is because sex is part of the communication and connection, not something that is separate. 

Among other things, communication is about words, tone, body langugae and context. When speaking in person, we don't separate those out. Within marriage, communication is also physical and emotional, with sex being part of both. Sex alone is not enough, but to me, at least within a marriage, communication without sex is not full communication.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> *While I don't disagree with most of this, I do think that for many men, sex is a critical type of communication within a marriage. Perhaps you did not intend it, but an interpretation of the post I responded to is that sex is not a type of comminication or connection, and thus is mere an extra to, not a part of, healthy communication and connection within a marriage.*I do agree that an active sex life within a marriage does not mean that every need is being met for each partner. But for many men, little or no sex means that at least one need is not being met.
> 
> To follow up on what Beowolf noted about, connecting with sex helps me want to connect with my wife in another ways. It makes it easier to want to meet her other needs. Not to say that I don't try to when we can't, but like in anything, when she is working to meet my needs I am spurred on to be an equal partner meeting her needs.


Well, if you've read through my history of postings in the past, you would know that that was NOT what I was trying to communicate, as I do see sex as another method of communication and connection within a marriage. See how nuanced and difficult communication can be. 

I only wanted to point out that at most it is part of the problem. I think it's rare that you can just start having sex and any underlying issues that have been fomenting underneath in the relationship will be auto-magically taken care. It may make you in a better frame of mind or mood, but if there are other issues there, they'll still be waiting around for you to address.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Well, if you've read through my history of postings in the past, you would know that that was NOT what I was trying to communicate, as I do see sex as another method of communication and connection within a marriage. See how nuanced and difficult communication can be.


Communication is fun, isn't it.

I should have know better, as I have seen your posts on this. Nevertheless, this discussion has helped me to better understand my own views on this, so I will make lemonaide from my lemon.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Beowulf, you sound a lot like my hubby. I like reading your posts because it gives me insight into his thought processes.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm sometimes so elated to have a conversation (albeit online) with a male that includes insight and intelligence. Is that cheating??


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

OMG these are all EA's !!!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

deejov said:


> I'm sometimes so elated to have a conversation (albeit online) with a male that includes insight and intelligence. Is that cheating??


Only if you hide it from your hubby!


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## lovinmyhubby223 (Jan 31, 2012)

OMG! I am so with you on this Boewulf. I fortunately have not had this problem on the giving or receiving end, but I too wonder how people find themselves in this situation. I mean do these people not know who their marrying. 

Maybe I am seeing things differently but IMO marriage should be for life (till death do us part) and with that in mind you’d think you’d want to know everything you could about anyone who might be a candidate for that life long journey. How can you marry someone who doesn’t share your sexual tastes? I not just talking about specific kinks or fetishes, I’m talking about simply engaging in sex or not. I understand and respect the whole “wait until your married” thing, however it should be something that since not experienced before marriage should be talked about in great detail. Know where they stand on the issue of sex. At least discuss it thoroughly to see if you’re even on the same page sexually. 

I can’t understand and have no respect for those who engage in the “bait and switch” tactic. I just feel sorry for those unsuspecting spouses who fell for the false advertising and are now stuck and God forbid there be children involved.

I’m sorry for ranting and raving but this subject infuriates me. 

As for the query regarding whether a spouse would allow the other to find relief outside the marriage since there is none inside the marriage, I would have to say no. Anyone who is so controlling that they would purposely withhold something that almost should be a right by marriage is too selfish to concede the needs of their spouse.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> Actually, if I understand TAG he is saying that it is extremely difficult for a man to communicate and understand his wife's needs unless there is some level of sexual connection between them. I tend to agree with that and most women don't see how that can be true.
> 
> I once heard a man's need for sex described in this way.
> 
> ...


That's very true. Sex is the ultimate form of acceptance which is also why its the ultimate rejection and hurts so deeply. I think that for men, sex is the most vulnerable we can be with anyone and most woman like thought process (emotionally speaking) we have. It doesn't seem to make any logical sense that we can't just jerk off and be happy, but that's exactly how that part of our mind works.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

deejov said:


> I'm sometimes so elated to have a conversation (albeit online) with a male that includes insight and intelligence. Is that cheating??


If that is a problem, stick to those like mine, so you can avoid that. I can add some grunts and drools if that helps.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Beowulf, you sound a lot like my hubby. I like reading your posts because it gives me insight into his thought processes.


All I can say is that your husband is a great great man.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

deejov said:


> I'm sometimes so elated to have a conversation (albeit online) with a male that includes insight and intelligence. Is that cheating??


I don't think so. It's one thing to have a great conversation with a random person like we are (trying to make our situations better). I've felt elated by some of my interactions here. I've also got the chance to talk to other women who sound just like my wife. I hope to God I've given them something to consider from the other side. If that helps their guy who is feeling like me and isn't here, that's awesome. I do wish my wife was on here too, but then she would see some of the things I've said and could be hurt by me trying to figure out what I have to do to save what we have.

I think you cross a line when conversations are taken "private" between two people and emotionally/physically connect with someone in a way that should only be reserved for your spouse. I think that's a much easier line to cross than most people think.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> I don't think so. It's one thing to have a great conversation with a random person like we are (trying to make our situations better). I've felt elated by some of my interactions here. I've also got the chance to talk to other women who sound just like my wife. I hope to God I've given them something to consider from the other side. If that helps their guy who is feeling like me and isn't here, that's awesome. I do wish my wife was on here too, but then she would see some of the things I've said and could be hurt by me trying to figure out what I have to do to save what we have.
> 
> I think you cross a line when conversations are taken "private" between two people and emotionally/physically connect with someone in a way that should only be reserved for your spouse. I think that's a much easier line to cross than most people think.


Well said.

I also think a big test is if you feel ashamed or awkward having the conversation. Or you feel like you should hide the conversation from your spouse. As long as everything is out in the open there is no problem. Your spouse can object if it crosses a boundary.


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## dymo (Jan 2, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> A marriage is supposed to include a sex life. Yet so many spouses refuse to participate in that aspect of the marriage. Would those spouses be happier if you offered to get your sexual needs taken care of outside the marriage? Has anyone asked this question and if so what was the response? Are there any spouses here that were or are denying their partners sexual fulfillment. How would you have reacted if you were asked this question? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how this situation comes to pass and an even harder time understanding how it is tolerated for so long in many cases.



Beowulf, you of all people should be able to understand that it is possible to do horrible things to somebody you love. As well as how a SO can come to live with it.

Sorry for going for the jugular here. Your wife may never denied sex, but she did cheat on you. In my mind that's a far greater offense. And you were eventually able to forgive and continue building a life with her.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> What I was saying was the LD spouse hates porn and thinks its unrealistic. "Oh sure, she wants to have sex with him, even though the lights are on and *she has not checked pinterest in 10 minutes*." Rational people, outside of addicts, should have no issue with porn. But, I find it disproportionate that spouses that deny their partners sex, also hate porn.


I'm probably going to sound really dumb here but what the heck is pinterest? This is the third time I've seen this referenced today and have no clue.??


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Pinterest is some site where you go and pin things you're interested on your wall. That's all I know about it.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

I should have guessed. Another way to spend a whole lot of time doing nothing. I'm sure there are those that view TAM as another way but I do get a lot out of this forum. It's too bad that people don't spend as much time connecting with there spouse as they do checking out who posted some idiotic bit of trivia on their "wall".


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

phantomfan said:


> Out of the park!
> 
> Well, I do beg to differ about porn. I do not see why anything that goes on in porn between two people isn't realistic in a marriage bed or should not be expected to be "common" and this is why.
> 
> ...


I cringe when I read something like this. It is so wrong.

Are you saying that - you think that having a wife gives you a live woman to simulate porn sex and masturbate you so that you give your hand a rest. 

Why do you think any woman would want to do that to show her love? Do you think that women fall in love and dream of being substitutes for their husbands porn sex fantasies? 

Did you know that porn is oriented to give men orgasms. With that in mind, do you still think that a wife should not expect to get an orgasm and some indication that her husband realizes that she is human. 

Does it bother you that women think that they have some say in the kind of sex they have. It may surprise you to know that a woman's focus may not be on pleasing her husband like a rendering a service to benefit him. 

She may actually dream of a mutually satisfying sexual relationship. If your wife is not having sex with you it maybe because your idea of sex is warped by porn. You want to be pleased and to have a women focus on your pleasure. But do you really think that is a reasonable expectation? If so why?

I think you would be happier if you stop watching porn and make love to your wife. See her as a person and you love life as much for her as for you.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

dymo said:


> Beowulf, you of all people should be able to understand that it is possible to do horrible things to somebody you love. As well as how a SO can come to live with it.
> 
> Sorry for going for the jugular here. Your wife may never denied sex, but she did cheat on you. In my mind that's a far greater offense. And you were eventually able to forgive and continue building a life with her.


Fair point but she owned her bad decision and I did not nor would not accept her poor behavior. I've always said that if I had discovered her infidelity before she ended her affair we would not have stayed married. If she had not been completely honest with me about her infidelity we would not have stayed married. If she did not completely own her affair and not only support but assist in exposure we would not have stayed married. And finally if she had not done all the heavy lifting during reconciliation we would not have stayed married.

The spouses here are not denying sex one time. They aren't denying sex for a period of a few months. They are denying sex for years. And they are doing so willfully and with full disregard toward their spouse's needs. So if we are using parallel examples here she would have had to either continue her affair or continue to have affairs in order to truly equal the level of injury that these denied spouses have to endure. And that is something that I would never accept under any circumstances. I consider cheating and denying sex to equally be breaking the laws of marital fidelity. Both deserving of an end to the marriage if not corrected. One can forgive a bad choice if the person admits their error and shows true remorse. But to profess love and make the same harmful choice repeatedly without regard for the injured party is simply inexplicable to me.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I cringe when I read something like this. It is so wrong.
> 
> Are you saying that - you think that having a wife gives you a live woman to simulate porn sex and masturbate you so that you give your hand a rest.
> 
> ...



I think you completely missed my point. It goes without saying that a good man is going to do what pleases a woman in the bedroom. A man on one hand does not view his wife as a pin cushion or some live action sex doll. On the other hand, we absolutely do view our spouse as something we want to conqueror in the bedroom. That's how we're built by design. We're hunters and providers. 

What pleases a man in the bedroom is having an active, engaged and enthusiastic partner. That's what porn stars portray on the camera. It's a two way street as far as I'm concerned. Men and women both should do what pleases their partners, bring their A game and have fun. You'll never be closer to someone than when you having sex. If its going to happen, why not take an active role and make it fun/hot/interesting, etc?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

phantomfan said:


> I think you completely missed my point. It goes without saying that a good man is going to do what pleases a woman in the bedroom. A man on one hand does not view his wife as a pin cushion or some live action sex doll. On the other hand, we absolutely do view our spouse as something we want to conqueror in the bedroom. That's how we're built by design. We're hunters and providers.
> 
> What pleases a man in the bedroom is having an active, engaged and enthusiastic partner. That's what porn stars portray on the camera. It's a two way street as far as I'm concerned. Men and women both should do what pleases their partners, bring their A game and have fun. You'll never be closer to someone than when you having sex. If its going to happen, why not take an active role and make it fun/hot/interesting, etc?


I think you don't get my point. Porn is fiction. It is mechanical robotic, cold eefing. Porn actresses fake excitement and orgasms. 

You want a woman to get excited by sex with no kissing, no affection, no foreplay just eeffing enthusiastically. 

Should your partner act excited and enthusiastic with no reason other than that it excites you to have porn actress in your bed? This is what you expect of marital sex? 

Let me ask you - did you expressly articulate this "we do view our spouse as something we want to conqueror in the bedroom. That's how we're built by design. We're hunters and providers. What pleases a man in the bedroom is having an active, engaged and enthusiastic partner. That's what porn stars portray on the camera", before you two committed so that she knew what she was getting into?. 

I am not sure how many woman would find this of the kind of sex exciting but that may me just me. 

But I will tell you what I want:

A romantic hero. A man who knows what women want. A strong powerful man. When he sees me he looks deeply into my eyes and tells me he loves me. 

He spends all of his free time with me. He surprises me with romantic dinners at exclusive restaurants and gives me gifts, a diamond braclet, one week and a string of pearls the next. 

He kisses me passionately at odd moments when we walk down the street or in an elevator. He holds my hand or holds me close wherever we go. 

He plans w/e trips to Paris in a private jet. He arranges to have Le Maison avec la fenetre closed and we have a romantic dinner. He sends me flowers form exotic places every week. 

He is a passionate lover and he knows a woman's body. The love-making is so exciting that I scream with enthusiastic. 

When we are finished, he holds me and murmurs in my ear until we fall asleep in each others arms. He tells me he loves the way I look, smell, and my eyes are like no other that he has ever seen. 

We talk all the time mostly about our love for each other, how happy we are, our plans for romantic get-aways and how much in love we are.

He tells me I am the best women he ever met and he has never loved any women like he does me and he will love me forever.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think you don't get my point. Porn is fiction. It is mechanical robotic, cold eefing. Porn actresses fake excitement and orgasms.
> 
> You want a woman to get excited by sex with no kissing, no affection, no foreplay just eeffing enthusiastically.
> 
> ...


Catherine, I'm not sure such a man exists outside of a romance novel.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

B Thank you. You get my point? 

I dont think that a porn actress exist outside of porn videos either. 

It is an unrealistic expectation that should be apparent by the number of frustrated men who cannot turn their wives into a performer. It is as unrealistic as my fantasy of a romantic hero. 

The difference is that I stopped reading romantic novels in my teens when I met the real thing. I live in reality unsupported by romantic-novel induced expectations. 

I love the man who is my husband for the unique person he is. I don't want to replace him with this cardboard null man. 

Besides, it is not a man, it is a woman made up like a man because it is from my female brain.

I want a man who is himself who never ceases to surprise me as I discover more layers. My imagination could never dream up my husband.

I would not insult him by telling him he should try to be like my fantasy.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> B Thank you. You get my point?
> 
> I dont think that a porn actress exist outside of porn videos either.
> 
> ...


Oh I understood perfectly. 

I really don't think many men would want their wives to act like porn actresses. Frankly if my wife allowed me to treat her in that manner I would lose a lot of respect for her. I do think most men would like their wives to be as enthusiastic as porn actresses are portrayed. My greatest sexual pleasure comes from watching my wife enjoying our sexual liaisons. I will tell you that my wife and I have tried pretty much everything seen in porn movies outside of threesomes and group sex. Those scenes will never happen in my bedroom. I never learned to share my toys.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I think you don't get my point. Porn is fiction. It is mechanical robotic, cold eefing. Porn actresses fake excitement and orgasms.
> 
> You want a woman to get excited by sex with no kissing, no affection, no foreplay just eeffing enthusiastically.
> 
> ...


I guess we will agree to disagree. My porn reference was only used to illustration for the attitude that is lacking IMHO for a spouse who is not interested in having sex. I think you're getting hung up on the technicalities of porn. It's obvious you don't watch or like it, that's fine. However, if you want your mate to really enjoy you in the bedroom, a willing attitude born out of love is going to make your sex life fulfilling for your mate and you'll get the most bang for your buck. The rest reminds me of a 99 cent romance novel or lifetime movie. Every man tries to woo their wives. Unfortunately I don't own any pirate shirts, private jets and think being responsible with money to keep a roof over our heads is more important than stuff. Having said that, a good man is going to spoil their wife rotten. I know I do. A good wife is also going to spoil her man in return.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> Oh I understood perfectly.
> 
> I really don't think many men would want their wives to act like porn actresses. Frankly if my wife allowed me to treat her in that manner I would lose a lot of respect for her. I do think most men would like their wives to be as enthusiastic as porn actresses are portrayed. My greatest sexual pleasure comes from watching my wife enjoying our sexual liaisons. I will tell you that my wife and I have tried pretty much everything seen in porn movies outside of threesomes and group sex. Those scenes will never happen in my bedroom. I never learned to share my toys.


Exactly my point. :iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

explode said:


> If I came right out and asked him to find another sexual partner, he would get offended. I have been watching sister wives and dropping hints about wanting a sister wife. He has responded. He just ignores me.


If my wife suggested to me to go outside the marriage to have these types of needs met ... I would ... but I would divorce her first.

No sex = no marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think you don't get my point. Porn is fiction. It is mechanical robotic, cold eefing. Porn actresses fake excitement and orgasms.
> 
> You want a woman to get excited by sex with no kissing, no affection, no foreplay just eeffing enthusiastically.
> 
> ...


Does your husband know about this guy who is provding you the full romance novel experience. 

It reminded me of the movie The Other Man. She had a very good husband. But she enjoyed meeting another man to be her romantic hero. He was everything she wanted for those two weeks at a time. It turned out he was a complete fake. he also had very little social skills to actually be married to a woman and meet her needs. I found the movie sobering. It seemed that many women want sex with that romantic hero but that it was very unlikley that romantic hero could forever be also their husband. It seems women long for the security of one man and to seek out that romantic guy for their break time. 

Your man sounds like an Alpha man. One of power, status, virility and of course money. He has known many women. Preselection at work here. Also experience. But he tells you that you are the best and he will love you forever. Did he tell his last mistrees this? I wonder. Anyway, a great fantasy. Sounds like female porn to me. But I get it. 

That said, I think it is great and if a husband can be that romantic hero AND still provide for all those other needs I think that is great. Oh to be able to live in both those worlds.

This is why I changed my priorities :

1) My wifes Lover

2) Her best male friend

3) Her Husband


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## itgetsbetter (Mar 1, 2012)

In my first marriage, it was my philosophy NEVER to deny my husband sexually. I never did. He, however, lied to me and pretended to share my sexual proclivities until we were married. I am into S&M. I am not satisfied with vanilla sex. I can enjoy it, but it doesn't give me a deep sense of happiness and satisfaction. He said he loved S&M too. He put on a good game. Then suddenly...nope. BUZZ KILL. This devastated me...having to accept the loss of this part of my life for the entirety of our marriage. For anybody in this lifestyle, you understand that it is part of your being. I am not exaggerating when I say that. 

He also waited to reveal the extent of some of his desires...which I felt repulsed by. PROBLEM! (obviously) So sex became vastly less satisfying to me. 

I am no prude. I am a very sexual person. I've always been this way since hitting puberty at about 10 or 11. It's just part of my identity.

So, again, I never denied my husband sex, but he denied me the type I like. I can understand how some men (and women) feel. It is so frustrating and disheartening and MADDENING when you want to be a faithful spouse, love your spouse, want crazy sex with your spouse...and they won't even try A LITTLE to make you sexually satisfied.

I've always thought that the man you marry is agreeing never to have sex with anybody else for the rest of his life. I'm not going to grovel with gratitude with that fact because frankly I'm an excellent sexual partner. But it's a big responsibility...to be entirely responsible for someone else's sexual satisfaction.

Before I remarried, I made sure - right off the bat - that the guys I was with had the same drive and lifestyle sexually in case the relationships developed more seriously. I knew I'd never spend one more day married to a man who didn't satisfy me...or even WANT to satisfy me...sexually.

I, again, take that seriously now in my second marriage (first was a cheater and a beater...he had to go). BUT this time I made sure I was marrying someone who took my sexual satisfaction as seriously as I took his. I would pretty much try anything my husband asked of me sexually as long as it didn't involve porn or other people. I'm very sexually free when not in a relationship, but once I commit...I'm EXTREMELY monogamous. BUT we can have a porn style sex life. That's not unreasonable at all to expect. Sex should be fun, dirty, daring, different, wild, etc. Anal, fisting, humiliation or anything that floats your boat. Sex can go dark places and still be very loving. 

We're both into the same sexual lifestyle, and life is better this way. I never again want to have a sexual relationship with someone who doesn't match my drive or desires. Life just isn't very happy that way. I'd like to be happy


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> I think you completely missed my point. It goes without saying that a good man is going to do what pleases a woman in the bedroom. A man on one hand does not view his wife as a pin cushion or some live action sex doll. On the other hand, we absolutely do view our spouse as something we want to conqueror in the bedroom. That's how we're built by design. We're hunters and providers.
> 
> What pleases a man in the bedroom is having an active, engaged and enthusiastic partner. That's what porn stars portray on the camera. It's a two way street as far as I'm concerned. Men and women both should do what pleases their partners, bring their A game and have fun. You'll never be closer to someone than when you having sex. If its going to happen, why not take an active role and make it fun/hot/interesting, etc?


 phantomfan, I get what you are saying. Forget the porn star connotation, it seems some can't get over that image. What you are looking for is a woman who truly and enthusiastically enjoys sex and is eager and focused on pleasing her partner. Fun, exploration and adventure should also be part of the experience. I also get what Catherine is saying, she needs (we all need) the emotional and romantic connection. 
My husband and I have great connection sexually but it wasn't always so. At the beginning he wasn't giving me what I needed emotionally. We had sex and it was good but I always felt a little let down, like something was missing. Foreplay was almost non existant and after he would immediately get up to clean up. That used to drive me crazy. After sex I want to be held, kissed and talked to. It doesn't have to be a lengthy time, just give me five minutes for heaven's sake.  I talked to him about it and he listened. Now, we have so much fun along with the sex, there is always laughter and happiness coming from the bedroom. My happiness spills over onto him because I am so much more open to him now and there is definite enthusiasm coming from me. (Giddy Up :smthumbup


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Does your husband know about this guy who is provding you the full romance novel experience.
> 
> It reminded me of the movie The Other Man. She had a very good husband. But she enjoyed meeting another man to be her romantic hero. He was everything she wanted for those two weeks at a time. It turned out he was a complete fake. he also had very little social skills to actually be married to a woman and meet her needs. I found the movie sobering. It seemed that many women want sex with that romantic hero but that it was very unlikley that romantic hero could forever be also their husband. It seems women long for the security of one man and to seek out that romantic guy for their break time.
> 
> ...


E 
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
My husband is so not like this girly man.

I do have a fantasy of him talking more about what is going on in his mind but that is not the kind of person he is. I would rather have him. 

If I told him that's what would make me happy, I am certain he would try to bend himself into that to make me happy. However, I think he would start drinking to carry it off.  

His favorite response to me when I ask him for something that is outside of his capabilities is "That's just not me baby" with a smile. Sometimes I ask for ridiculous things just to hear him say that. It would be selfish and unreasonable for me to impose my fantasy on him knowing that it is too much of a stretch. 

Besides, I already have much more than I am entitled. Being appreciative of the man I have takes up my thoughts not trying to make him over. 

That is the point I was trying to make. Men and women come into to a relationship with a whole set of expectations that are hidden many times. People seldom accept that their fantasies are out of their reach in our entitled culture. 

Women dream of a romantic hero who knows women. AKA he knows what she needs. Men dream of a [email protected] in the bedroom. How confusing and disappointed they are when they are faced with the person they selected.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Many men post on the site about disappointed sexual expectations. Statements like "she should do it because I do so much for her or marriage is about compromise or sex should be exciting or a woman should please her man or she should love all of me including my penis or should be willing to try even if she does not want". 

The independence of woman is derided, venting about the pantheon of female world domination and feminazi conspiracies to destroy men ensue. All of this because the wifie will not try anal sex. 

Woman don't post about how disappointed they are that their husbands come nowhere close to their fantasies. They can even get him to talk and pick up behind himself. 

I know why they don't post the way men post about sex, they know that romantic fantasies are considered unrealistic unlike sexual fantasies.

In fact, even simple romantic acts are viewed as something to endure just to get to the important stuff, sex. I have read the same many times on this forum. 

However, the important stuff is the romance and the sex. The enthusiasm and excitement should be on display when engaging in both. 

I have not read post from woman about their husbands romantic gestures. I suspect there is not much enthusiasm or excitement about spending this kind of time with their wives. 

The term jumping through hoops comes to mind. If he is not a gymnast then he ain't going to like it.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> His favorite response to me when I ask him for something that is outside of his capabilities is "That's just not me baby" with a smile. Sometimes I ask for ridiculous things just to hear him say that. It would be selfish and unreasonable for me to impose my fantasy on him knowing that it is too much of a stretch.


His answer is very alpha. :smthumbup:

I'm glad you admit that you consciously fitness test him. Most women won't admit they do it but all women do. It shows that you are self aware and that is a very healthy thing.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Mrs. T said:


> phantomfan, I get what you are saying. Forget the porn star connotation, it seems some can't get over that image. What you are looking for is a woman who truly and enthusiastically enjoys sex and is eager and focused on pleasing her partner. Fun, exploration and adventure should also be part of the experience. I also get what Catherine is saying, she needs (we all need) the emotional and romantic connection.
> My husband and I have great connection sexually but it wasn't always so. At the beginning he wasn't giving me what I needed emotionally. We had sex and it was good but I always felt a little let down, like something was missing. Foreplay was almost non existant and after he would immediately get up to clean up. That used to drive me crazy. After sex I want to be held, kissed and talked to. It doesn't have to be a lengthy time, just give me five minutes for heaven's sake.  I talked to him about it and he listened. Now, we have so much fun along with the sex, there is always laughter and happiness coming from the bedroom. My happiness spills over onto him because I am so much more open to him now and there is definite enthusiasm coming from me. (Giddy Up :smthumbup


Same here. I have so much sexually. I trust my husband and will try most things. If I did not trust him no way.

I never talk about the changes he made for me in the romance, talking spending quality time. In that area he is as different now from our early days as I am sexually. 

He is affectionate, communicative not too much about feelings and attentive. He said at first it was awkward but not it is part of who is is with me. 

He changed because that is what I told him we needed and I changed for the same reason. He did not do so grudgingly. We talk about change in those very rare times that he talks about his feelings. 

He said that he knew as little about what makes women tick as I did about sex. He said he was willing to learn how to be a good husband because he did not know how. 

His comes from a family with mostly successful long -term relationships. I think he got a lot of advice from his brother and father.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Many men post on the site about disappointed sexual expectations. Statements like "she should do it because I do so much for her or marriage is about compromise or sex should be exciting or a woman should please her man or she should love all of me including my penis or should be willing to try even if she does not want".
> 
> The independence of woman is derided, venting about the pantheon of female world domination and feminazi conspiracies to destroy men ensue. All of this because the wifie will not try anal sex.
> 
> ...


I think you are misunderstanding what is being said. Men don't really want a porn star in bed. They don't really want a wife that says "f*ck my a$$" all the time (although hearing *once* would be interesting). What they want is a woman that is enthusiastic in the bedroom and if the man isn't doing something inside or outside the bedroom, men need to know what it is so they can work on it. I don't know any man that attended the Svengali School for Sexual Advancement. We can't read minds but we do want to please.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

I've learned to re-adjust what I consider a romantic gesture from my husband. While I still love the traditional giving of flowers, candlelit dinner and soft gazes and words of love I now see that other little gestures like cleaning the dust off my motorcycle before I take it for a ride or taking my car to get the oil changed so I don't have to sit and wait for it and stopping at the car wash on the way home so its clean when he brings it back, now that I know the man that he is, these things mean more to me than the flowers. He gives the flowers because that's what he's "supposed" to do. The other things...they come from the heart and he does them to make life easier for me...and that's what I hold dear.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Mrs. T said:


> I've learned to re-adjust what I consider a romantic gesture from my husband. While I still love the traditional giving of flowers, candlelit dinner and soft gazes and words of love I now see that other little gestures like cleaning the dust off my motorcycle before I take it for a ride or taking my car to get the oil changed so I don't have to sit and wait for it and stopping at the car wash on the way home so its clean when he brings it back, now that I know the man that he is, these things mean more to me than the flowers. He gives the flowers because that's what he's "supposed" to do. The other things...they come from the heart and he does them to make life easier for me...and that's what I hold dear.


You definitely sound like my wife.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Beowulf said:


> His answer is very alpha. :smthumbup:
> 
> I'm glad you admit that you consciously fitness test him. Most women won't admit they do it but all women do. It shows that you are self aware and that is a very healthy thing.


B I know I do. I don't do it consciously and I did not know it was fitness test. Just about every woman I know does it. But I don't think they know either. 

Some of the post I read about what men put up with in a relationship makes me sad. There is a constant joking for dominance I think. I am not a dominant person with men yet I try. If he let me be dominant I would be so unhappy. 

If they only knew that they should say no and lead with a smile. You don't have to do everything a woman ask to make her happy. About 60% will do, depending on the woman. She may be mad at first but she won't stop loving you. She will respect you. 

One thing that works for me is that my husband notices things that I like just from listening to me talk. I admired an unusual sweater a friend was wearing. He found out where she got it and about 6 months latter, he surprised me out of the blue in my favorite color. 

It has not happened often but he is telling me that he hears me and wants me to be happy! He could say no for a year and I cant be mad. 

I do the same, notice what he likes and whats important to him.
There should be relationship courses separately for men and women.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> You definitely sound like my wife.


 It took one failed marriage and a lot of soul searching but I've learned to look outside myself and put the focus on him. He's a good man and he tries his hardest to give me everything I need. I make sure I let him know that his efforts are appreciated. I guess we just don't take each other for granted. Mutual trust and respect...it doesn't sound like a big deal but really it's everything.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> B I know I do. I don't do it consciously and I did not know it was fitness test. Just about every woman I know does it. But I don't think they know either.
> 
> Some of the post I read about what men put up with in a relationship makes me sad. There is a constant joking for dominance I think. I am not a dominant person with men yet I try. If he let me be dominant I would be so unhappy.
> 
> ...


Sounds like he is a good balance of alpha and beta if you want to use those terms. (BTW I never heard those terms before a few months ago. I just learned what worked from observation and trial and error.) I'm the same way but I wasn't always. I had to learn to be a good man in a marriage. It's a constant evolution.

I did the same thing. My wife talked about how she always loved a canopy style bed. I never forgot. 10 years later after we bought our house and it had the room I began searching for a canopy bed for her. I know she loves brass so I ordered a canopy bed from a company in the UK and had it sent over. I think it came by freighter. I also ordered bed curtains from a company in France. She went away for the weekend so I set the bed up with the bed curtains. She was floored. Let's just say we christened the bed a lot and often.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Mrs. T said:


> It took one failed marriage and a lot of soul searching but I've learned to look outside myself and put the focus on him. He's a good man and he tries his hardest to give me everything I need. I make sure I let him know that his efforts are appreciated. I guess we just don't take each other for granted. Mutual trust and respect...it doesn't sound like a big deal but really it's everything.


*I guess we just don't take each other for granted. Mutual trust and respect...it doesn't sound like a big deal but really it's everything.*

Needed to be repeated! Awesome!:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Came across this article on Huffington Post and thought I'd share. Could this be an underlying cause of the no sex issue?

Monique Honaman: I Just Wish He Would Have An Affair!

_"My husband is so nice. He's a good guy. I just wish he would have an affair!"

I have heard these comments, or comments very similar to this, numerous times lately. What's going on? I'm not sure I have an answer. In fact, I know I don't have an answer. This isn't about having an answer. This is about laying out some thoughts and observations on this theme that seems so relevant and prevalent.

Several different women have contacted me recently and have shared their stories, and their stress (perhaps distress would be a better word) over the fact that they do not want to be married anymore. Period._


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

The day that I say I wish my husband would have an affair just shoot me please...


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

^ Interesting article. Although I have heard before about people wishing their spouse would step out and be the 'bad guy' so that they would feel more justified in ending the marriage. To whit I reply "cowards!".

In general, though, I think that people (both men and women) do have a feeling that they are entitled to some kind of great personal fulfillment out of life and out of marriage - all without having to dirty their hands or tarnish their images by doing any hard work for it.

Takes two to tango though, but it only takes one to step on the dance floor first. These women should quit moping around and start taking control of their lives. Woman up! 

Women, just like men, do not have to passively sit and stew and let their life and their marriage go to pot. If their husband refuses to budge in anyway and won't participate in improving the marriage, then they would have their answer right there and can cut him loose with no guilt and a clear conscience.

No need for affairs at all. Big need for a healthy dose of reality and responsibility, though.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Beowulf said:


> A marriage is supposed to include a sex life. Yet so many spouses refuse to participate in that aspect of the marriage. Would those spouses be happier if you offered to get your sexual needs taken care of outside the marriage? Has anyone asked this question and if so what was the response? Are there any spouses here that were or are denying their partners sexual fulfillment. How would you have reacted if you were asked this question? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how this situation comes to pass and an even harder time understanding how it is tolerated for so long in many cases.


I asked my husband flat out if he wanted me to have an affair.. He said i thought you already were!! Which i was, but not a sexual one!


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> ^ Interesting article. Although I have heard before about people wishing their spouse would step out and be the 'bad guy' so that they would feel more justified in ending the marriage. To whit I reply "cowards!".
> 
> .


The fight to be the "good guy" no matter how transparent is a dynamic that seems to underline many couple's problems. For some people, assigning blame and victim roles is far more important than directly fixing the problem.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Mrs. T said:


> It took one failed marriage and a lot of soul searching but I've learned to look outside myself and put the focus on him. He's a good man and he tries his hardest to give me everything I need. I make sure I let him know that his efforts are appreciated. I guess we just don't take each other for granted. Mutual trust and respect...it doesn't sound like a big deal but really it's everything.


Kudos to you! You have discovered the secret - build him up and focus on him _while_ he is focusing on you, not _after_ and when you feel like it. This is the inherent teamwork and equality we need to see more of.

There are two very simple principles we need to follow. One, do not take so much from the family / marriage that it would be impossible for your spouse to take the same. Two, do not treat your spouse in a way you would not tolerate for yourself.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Came across this article on Huffington Post and thought I'd share. Could this be an underlying cause of the no sex issue?
> 
> Monique Honaman: I Just Wish He Would Have An Affair!


You might be missing the point of the article. It is not that the women do not want to be bothered with sex. They want to be able to leave their husbands and feel justified. The affair just gives a convenient excuse.

The sad thing is that this mindset becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Since no one is perfect, mistakes of some sort will happen. These women will eventually find something they can feel good about leaving over or bait their husbands into leaving over (possibly just out of pure frustration with such miserable wives).


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

DTO said:


> You might be missing the point of the article. It is not that the women do not want to be bothered with sex. They want to be able to leave their husbands and feel justified. The affair just gives a convenient excuse.
> 
> The sad thing is that this mindset becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Since no one is perfect, mistakes of some sort will happen. These women will eventually find something they can feel good about leaving over or bait their husbands into leaving over (possibly just out of pure frustration with such miserable wives).


No I got the point of the article. These women would deny their husbands sex in order to get them to have an affair. That way they could feel justified in leaving them. My point was that maybe in some of the cases we read on TAM that might be occurring? I'd hope not but can one really know for sure?


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