# Found out wife of 25 years had affair 9 years ago.



## SAMHAIN

I just signed up today, and I can't create a thread in the infidelity forum. I've tried different computers, and android phone, and an iPad. I get either an HTTP 500 error, or a white screen on the iPad. Do I need to wait for my account to be fully activated or something? I'm going through some stuff in life and I'd like to get feedback from others


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## SAMHAIN

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*

Well, obviously it's something with the infidelity board, not site wide because I can create threads here


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## TAMAT

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*

you can just post on this tread and have the moderators move it over later


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## SAMHAIN

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*



TAMAT said:


> you can just post on this tread and have the moderators move it over later


Thanks, I'll try that


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## SAMHAIN

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*

SORRY FOR POSTING THIS HERE, BUT I CAN'T CREATE A THREAD IN THE INFIDELITY FORUM (KEEP GETTING HTTP 500 ERRORS). CAN A MODERATOR PLEASE MOVE IT FOR ME? THANKS


Thread Title: Found out wife of 25 years had affair 9 years ago. I'm so lost.


Hi everyone, I’m currently at DDay+3 and as some of you know who’ve been through it, I’m in hell. I wish I didn’t have to find this site, but I am glad it’s here as I don’t have any good friends I can talk to and I’m not sure I want to discuss it with my Dad or brother. I accidentally discovered evidence of my wife’s affair that took place 9 years ago. This was a total shock as I never suspected anything (at least in this instance), and I feel like a total idiot. This is just so devastating. Ironically, my Mom died about 3 months after the dates of the affair(s) based on the evidence I have, and the pain of this revelation is more intense (My mom was sick and went into hospice a week before she passed, so I had time to process it and grieve with family). This is totally different because I feel so alone.

A little back story on our marriage. We both turned 40 last year. We met in high school, and started hanging out and dating shortly after. We took it slow, she was my first real girlfriend so you know how that can be. We didn’t have our first kiss until a few months into “going out”. It’s kind of pathetic, but we both agreed that it was nice to take things slow and get to know each other. I only know a bit about her past relationships, but I never pried because I am a jealous type and just don’t want to know. She did accidentally let it slip that she wasn’t a virgin and from what she said it wasn’t a good experience involving a much older man that she knew. (She was 14, he was 26. She didn’t describe it as rape, but when I pointed out to her that she asked him to stop and he didn’t she agreed). Anyway, we’ve been together pretty much since we were both 16. Our relationship has had it’s ups and downs like any other, but I really feel we are best friends. Our sex life however, hasn’t been the best. It’s very irregular and there are months and at one point years have gone by without any regular sex. Now, she’s been pretty good about satisfying me with oral almost whenever I initiate it, but sex has been a hang up usually. She doesn’t like oral on her either (she says because the first guy did that to her and it makes her feel weird). When we do have sex, she does seem to enjoy it, but she is very reserved. Whenever I’ve tried to talk frankly about sex, she gets very shy and embarrassed. So I try not to push her. I always figured she was like this because of her first experience and she’s said she doesn’t like to be “touched” and has alway felt that was since a child. She’s mentioned being weirded out by doctors, and even her immediate family. I suspect there may have been some molestation at some point, but I have never asked her point blank. I’m not a therapist and wouldn’t know how to have that discussion. 

Like I said we were happy together for the most part. We considered ourselves married even though it wasn’t official for many years. She always said I was gonna “get rid” of her because she was “broken”, but I assured her that I loved her no matter what and while sex is important to me, I always told myself we could work it out. When we do have sex it’s fantastic. Anyway, after being together 15 years, we decided to get married officially when we found out about my Mom so she could experience it before she passed (she was always asking when we were gonna get married). My wife was very happy with planning the wedding, and on the day it was perfect. Only I didn’t know at the time what she was up to during this time frame. I never seriously thought she would cheat on me because of her apparent sexual dysfunction, even though she is a very beautiful woman and guys hit on her all the time. I have low self esteem, and always felt she was out of my league, but she really does seem to love me. 

DDAY
Here’s how I found out some of what was going on. The other day I was looking through an old drawer trying to find my old Sony Playstation Portable so I could sell it on eBay. In the drawer I found a old phone memory card and I got a kick out of it because it was such a small capacity compared to what we have these days (256MB). It wasn’t worth anything but just for ****s and giggles I popped it into my computer to see if anything was on it. It looked blank, except for one folder that looked like it was for a text backup. What I found in there was a text message transcript for a day in april 2009. My wife at the time worked as a retail store manager for a big cell phone company. I recognized some of her employees names and there were talking about work stuff and I didn’t think anything of it. But as I scrolled down, I was shocked to find some pretty graphic sexting. I didn’t realize at first this guy was talking to my wife, because one side had his name, and the responses just were labeled as “me”. As I was starting to get ill, I tried telling myself that it wasn’t my wifes transcript, but when I scrolled back to the top it clearly said it was her phone number. When it hit me, I have never felt so sick in my life. Just devastated. I still haven’t had the guts to go back and read the full conversation. Just the bits and pieces I saw… I don’t know how to describe the feeling. But it gets worse. I thought it was wird that the card was empty except for that folder. I’m thinking when my wife erased it she didn’t realize the text transcript would remain. While I was physically shaking and between trips to the bathroom, I google free data recovery software and scanned the card. I found about 40 photos. Graphic photos. While you can’t see her face, I clearly recognize what I do see and of course the location is OUR bathroom. I’ve never seen these pictures, they clearly weren’t taken to possibly send to me. One of the pictures is of her masturbating and that is something I’ve asked her to let me see and be involved with when we're together, but she claims she never does it and gets very embarrassed, so I never pushed it. I’m in full freak out mode. When I discovered this, she was at work (a different job, not the same as back then) and wouldn’t be home for a few hours. I went through the house and scanned every memory card and old phone I could find looking for more evidence. I found an old flip phone that I didn’t think would have anything because it was outdated by the point the affair took place, but I looked anyway. Opened the text messages, and the first one is from the OM. *OH NO.* So now I have proof this was more that a one time thing. What sickens me even more about this second piece of evidence is the fact that she was texting him with this phone while we were out at a concert together. I remember. She put her sim card in this old phone so her bigger smartphone wouldn’t get lost or damaged at the concert (we originally bonded in high school over our love of heavy metal music). Unfortunately, I had no way to backup the contents of the text on this phone, so I had to take a picture of each screen. That meant I had to read the whole conversation that was going on while we were on a “date night”. It also 99.9% confirmed to me that this was also a PA based on what was said. Stuff was discussed that she would never do or even try once with me. Also, at one point that night he asked her to “show me your tits”, and she said she was driving. But about 20 minutes later after we got to the venue she must have gone to the bathroom because she did in fact send him a topless photo (this time with he face showing, so I guess at this point she trusted him enough not to post the pictures somewhere online). All of this happened 3-4 months before our wedding after being committed and living together for 15 years. I had no idea. Not to be crass, but it was around this time she actually got better at oral, and started using her hands more. I thought it was great and I clearly remember joking with her saying “wow, who have you been practicing with? _LOL_” *JESUS ****ING CHRIST! NOW I KNOW.* Stupid me, I just though she was watching porn and was too embarrassed to tell me. Another ****ty thing is this guy is nothing like me. Guys she always finds attractive are types like me, long hair rocker/biker guys. This guy is a bald Latino who is into sports and hip hop. Just icing on the cake.

We don’t have a group of friends, we are always together. A few times she’s had guy friends from other jobs and has gone out with them in a group setting without me. Of course I would sort of suspect, but I would never think she would do anything based on what I thought I knew of her. Plus she was never snaky about that when she would go out, and even invited me a few times. Now I don’t know what to think. I feel like I’m an open minded guy and free sexually. I’m up to try anything once. If she came to me and said she had desires and wanted to try something new, like bring a guy home I think I would have been up for it, just for her sake. But the fact that she did this behind my back, and talked about doing things she knew I wanted to do but she refused, just makes me so sick and betrayed. I've tried to send her dirty text messages in the past, but she said it’s silly and not a turn on. I guess I’m the sucker.

I’m sorry this is so long, and I’m sure I’m forgetting stuff. I just don’t know who talk to and don’t know what to do. I can’t stop thinking about it. I try to stay busy but it will just randomly pop into my head. I can’t escape it. I don’t know how to confront her. The night of DDay, I instigated sex, and she got upset. We talked about somethings, and before we went to sleep we did have sex and it ended pretty quick because it’s been a while for me. The next day nothing because I told her I was feeling sick (because I was, she just doesn’t know why). But last night we had a long frank talk about our sex life and our current relationship. It seems like she does want things to get better in that way. We had loving sex afterwards, and things seemed to go well. So I’m just totally lost. I don’t want to lose her, she says she doesn’t want to lose me. I just think I need to know everything. Not just the guy I know about, but if there were more. If it was just the one guy, I need to know how it started, and when it ended. Right now I only have a snapshot of 2 days about 2 weeks apart back in '09. She’s addicted to her phone, so I haven’t had much chance to take a good look at her current one. I did glance quickly the other day, and while I did see a text from the OM, it was from 8 months ago and he asked “Hi, how are you”. She didn’t reply (unless she deleted it, but if that’s the case she would have deleted the whole conversation). So perhaps this is way behind her. But of course for me this just happened. I only met the guy once or twice at her work, and I don’t really know him. I think he has a long term girlfriend or wife, and I’d really like to find out if they were together at the time and see if she knows anything. But I’m not sure how to find out without tipping my hand. His Facebook profile is mostly private, so I can’t see much. I do know my wife and him are still friends on Facebook. I tried to open Facebook messenger on her phone, but she doesn’t have it installed. The OM is Facebook friends with some of my old coworkers (my wife and I worked at the same company for a while, then I went to a competitor so we all know a lot of the same people). Should I talk to one of my old coworkers and see if they know if the OM has a wife and what her name is? I just don’t know what the right course of action is.

Again, sorry for the wall of text, I just had to vent to somebody. I really hope this feeling in my gut diminishes as time goes on, and I can keep the thoughts that pop in my head to a minimum.


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## SunCMars

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*

I would dig some more on her present phone. 
I would put a voice activated recorder in her car or the place she sits in the house and talks on the phone. When you are not around.

You know she cheated in the past. 
You said she still works with this guy.

Monitor her for at least a month.

Then tell her a bird whispered in your ear. The lady bird told you everything about her [your wife] and the the other man, the POSOM.
Mention the facts, stretch the truth a bit. That you were told about the times she had sex with him, the photos they exchanged.

But, wait a month. 
See if she has cleaned up her act. 
Was all this together-time an act, or does she love you? 
It seems, she did not then.


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## SAMHAIN

Thanks for your feedback. I guess I wasn't clear, a lot of emotions came up while trying to type out the story. She does not work with the OM any longer. She left that company in 2010 or 2011 I think. She said she quit because she couldn't handle the stress anymore, but now I'm wondering if the affair had something to do with her leaving? It was a good paying job, best she's ever had (better than I've had actually). I don't think a VAR will do me any good. She never talks on the phone, it's always text or internet. I guess I could try the car, but as nieave as it sounds I don't think she's actively cheating. I still would like to check her current phone for any deleted content. I'll try and wait a month before confronting, but I don't know if I can. I figured a week would be too hard as is. This whole situation sucks and is too weird.


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*

Moved to CWI.


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## GusPolinski

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*

Still reading, but I’ll go ahead and ask...

Have you confronted yet?

Have you backed everything up yet? (If not do so ASAP.)


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## SAMHAIN

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*



GusPolinski said:


> Still reading, but I’ll go ahead and ask...
> 
> Have you confronted yet?
> 
> Have you backed everything up yet? (If not do so ASAP.)


I have not confronted yet, and I have backed up what I have so far to Google Drive


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## OutofRetirement

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*

It would be extremely naive to think she is not cheating right now. You just don't know. Flip a coin. What you do know is that your wife can lie very easily to you and you wouldn't know a thing. It is obvious how much you respect your wife, how much compassion you have for her, and your love.

As far as your wife wanting much different sexual things from her affair partner than from you, that is not unheard of by any means. That truly has nothing do with you and my inexpert opinion is that it might have to do with her past sexual traumas growing up. If she does have that in her past, I think she should get therapy.

As far as her cheating, I think the biggest red flag I could observe is that the cheaters guard their phones with their lives, never put them down, some even sleep with them under their pillows. Why does she need her phone on her constantly? That is a huge red flag in my opinion unless she has a very specific reason, like one of her parents is gravely ill, or something like that. What is she doing on the phone? Who is she communicating with?

If I were you, and I am no expert, I would want to know what is going on NOW before confronting her. I would try to get her phone alone and go see what is on there. I might try that for a week, tops. Then, I would just take her phone when she puts it down for a second and then, at that point, tell her what I have found. Which I would expect her to just lie about it, say she never had sex with him, it was just a few pictures, blah, blah, blah, then when you tell her well you found this or that, she will cop to this or that, only as much as you already found out on your own, or whatever else she will figure that you must already know.

What I think, based on the stress stuff leaving a few years later, and based on what I've seen and read a lot, I would guess there was some tipping point where the affair ended. Co-worker affairs almost always are very emotional, "in love" with each other, or at least liking each other a whole lot, i.e., not "just sex," not "never meant anything to me, was just sex." So if she had the affair at work, it would not have ended quickly or easily. If I had to give my best guess based on other situations like yours, I would guess that the affair partner's girlfriend/wife found out, the workplace was poisoned, and that was the "stress" that caused your wife to leave the job. There are places you can read online or in books, to read how deep these cheaters are into their affair partners emotionally. When these affairs end, there is a grieving process, they can't stop thinking about each other, they are heartbroken, etc., so think back and see if you can see that types of behavior when your wife left that job. Or sometime after that.

Think about what you THOUGHT your wife was like, what was her feelings when you were getting married at that time. Discard that for the time being, erase it for a while, and put a clean slate. Now on that slate, put on what you now know what is going on. She was with you at a concert, yet the entire time she was focused on him. You were thinking she was in love with you and focused completely on you romantically, really you were just like white noise in the background. Ask me how I know this. I was able to read a lot more of my wife's texts than you have so far, but believe me, I've seen it a thousand times either in real life or reading online, and it almost always is the same.

So after you have her phone, and you've confronted her, and you've got a half-baked "doesn't make much sense" story of what she says happened, I would ask her if you can get the phone and recover it to the extent you can, will she write all passwords down, and let you do this, and let her go visit her parents or siblings or a hotel for a few days while you do this. And if she says "no," then tell her it's non-negotiable, I'm done. Give the phone back and move one without her. And don't believe for a second that I don't know how hard that it is to do, after 25 years or so together. But think about this, if you were in her shoes, would you hand over your phone to her if she found out about you now, and nothing was going on at this moment? She was willing to risk your relationship, your marriage, probably for 2-3 years going back 8-10 years ago. If she is not willing to give you the phone without cleansing it first, she once again is willing to risk it.

Time and time again, these affairs are very similar. Personally, I think what you say and do now, how you act, will mean a lot to you in the future. How you handled it. Be strong. The problem is the power difference in the marriage. The cheater is more likely less invested in the marriage, and therefore is willing to risk it more. The betrayed hold on too tight, begging and hoping a few crumbs of truth or sympathy.


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## chillymorn69

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*

I would not waste anymore of my life with this ......person!

I would get my ducks in a row and blind side her with divorce papers!


Wasting more time gathering evidence is just tourting yourself.


If her being a lying **** isn't enough for you to leave then....well good luck .


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## blahfridge

OP, are there any children?


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## FalCod

I would sit down with her and tell her that you have a strong suspicion of infidelity on her part along with evidence to back up your suspicion. Give her 24 hours to totally come clean about every physical and/or emotion affair she has had since you met. Let her know that if she is completely honest, you'll work with her to get back past this. If she isn't completely honest, she'll hear from your attorney.

Don't tell her what evidence you have. Don't tell her what you know. If she has had multiple affairs, she won't know what to confess to. If she confesses to something that lines up perfectly with the evidence you have then there is a good chance that you found the one affair she did have and you can decide what to do about that.


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## just got it 55

Better Call Saul

55


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## ABHale

I agree with the get things ready and serve her with divorce papers. 

Remember this is the only one you know about. If she travels with work or friends with out you. Who knows how many One Night Stands she has had.


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## Chaparral

In this case one of the best strategies s to ask to use her phone for a minute then surreptitiously or blatantly, whichever is easiest, just leave and then search the phone for deleted emails and gos info. Some guys have just grabbed the phone and ran out the door. Others have folded and handed the phone back.

Unfortunately these stories are common here when a wife has been abused and used when they were young.

You definitely need to find out as much info as you can and most importantly do not let her know how you know. Lie as much as you want since that would be a drop in the bucket to what she has done.

She has had a completely varied sex life with some one else and did things with him she would not do with you. As much as it hurts you may want to read the rest of the texts if only to make sure no one else was involved. 

Have you checked phone bills and any other old phones? If you think you really want to save this you might as well look into a polygraph too. 

Honestly, I don’t think you have a clue as to who your wife really is.


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## Thor

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*



SAMHAIN said:


> I suspect there may have been some molestation at some point, but I have never asked her point blank. I’m not a therapist and wouldn’t know how to have that discussion.
> .
> .
> .
> I have low self esteem, and always felt she was out of my league, but she really does seem to love me.


Yes, what you describe is consistent with child sexual abuse. There are many red flags in her history, including her early loss of virginity and the much older man which you may not have realized is an indicator. If she was abused, you are correct that you can not be her therapist. She needs good qualified trauma therapy from a psychologist experienced in dealing with CSA. Absent such therapy she will not overcome her internal issues. Her thought processes, emotions, and her view of sexuality were all greatly distorted by the abuse, if there was abuse. The human mind is wired during childhood, and she has no different experience to tell her that her map is not correct. From your position as spouse (and Secondary Survivor of child sex abuse), you can have sympathy for her distresses, but probably the most you can do is to say *once* that if she is feeling distressed about her early experiences with sex then she might feel better talking to a therapist who specializes in it. And, you'd support her in any way she asks you to. In regards to the ongoing relationship with her, ignoring the infidelity, you can look for signs of what may trigger her. If she doesn't like oral, presuming it was part of her abuse or rape experiences, then it isn't merely that she doesn't enjoy it, it is an actual trauma trigger. Thus it is not something she is going to simply start enjoying, and she isn't able to process your statements that you want to bring her pleasure with it. Basically, sex with the CSA or rape victim is a complicated minefield.

You may be a Nice Guy. As in Dr. Glover's book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". It is scary really how often the Nice Guy pairs up with the trauma victim in a marriage. The NG has some dysfunctional thought processes and roadmaps regarding sex and relationships, which put you in a death spiral with the CSA/rape victim. You may get value out of reading the book. Your local library may have it if you don't want to buy a copy yet.


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## giddiot

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*



Thor said:


> Yes, what you describe is consistent with child sexual abuse. There are many red flags in her history, including her early loss of virginity and the much older man which you may not have realized is an indicator. If she was abused, you are correct that you can not be her therapist. She needs good qualified trauma therapy from a psychologist experienced in dealing with CSA. Absent such therapy she will not overcome her internal issues. Her thought processes, emotions, and her view of sexuality were all greatly distorted by the abuse, if there was abuse. The human mind is wired during childhood, and she has no different experience to tell her that her map is not correct. From your position as spouse (and Secondary Survivor of child sex abuse), you can have sympathy for her distresses, but probably the most you can do is to say *once* that if she is feeling distressed about her early experiences with sex then she might feel better talking to a therapist who specializes in it. And, you'd support her in any way she asks you to. In regards to the ongoing relationship with her, ignoring the infidelity, you can look for signs of what may trigger her. If she doesn't like oral, presuming it was part of her abuse or rape experiences, then it isn't merely that she doesn't enjoy it, it is an actual trauma trigger. Thus it is not something she is going to simply start enjoying, and she isn't able to process your statements that you want to bring her pleasure with it. Basically, sex with the CSA or rape victim is a complicated minefield.
> 
> 
> 
> You may be a Nice Guy. As in Dr. Glover's book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". It is scary really how often the Nice Guy pairs up with the trauma victim in a marriage. The NG has some dysfunctional thought processes and roadmaps regarding sex and relationships, which put you in a death spiral with the CSA/rape victim. You may get value out of reading the book. Your local library may have it if you don't want to buy a copy yet.




Excellent advice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Thor

I'm a bit unsure on advising exact steps from here regarding the infidelity. This is the age old question of what to do if she has seemingly been a good wife but there was an affair long ago.

Do not confront yet!

You do need to get a full picture of what has happened, and what may be happening now. You can do some sleuthing into historical records perhaps, though I am not sure there is much to be found. Credit card history may show purchases from Victoria's Secret for stuff you've never seen at home. There may be motel rooms. Phone records may show something but if she texts like most people do these days it would be nearly impossible to sift through years and years of text history.

Interestingly she kept the sim card. That is a souvenir. If I'd committed a crime, I would feel guilty, and I'd get rid of all the evidence as thoroughly as possible. If I had a fun experience, I'd keep a souvenir of some sort. She may have other souvenirs stashed away. I have a friend who found a love letter tucked into a book. Your W may have a motel key card, post card, restaurant logo napkin, etc.

You can search for condoms, condom wrappers, sexy underwear you never see her wear, a secret phone, or any other unexplainable item. These would be evidence of current or very recent affairs. Search her car thoroughly, including under the seats, in all the cubbies, in the spare tire compartment, etc. Go through all of her dresser drawers and everything in her closet. Check the pockets of clothing hanging in the closet, especially things she rarely wears. Check inside shoes/boots. If she has a secret phone or is keeping a stash of condoms she will have them hidden but easy to grab.

My guess is she has had multiple affairs, but may not be in one now. She sounds like a compartmentalizer, who sees her home life as a totally separate world from her affair. Investigate for the next few days to gather what evidence may still exist.

Then it is time to confront. Have a Voice Activated Recorder running during the confrontation. You will miss much because your head will be swimming. Stay as calm as possible, and do your best to listen rather than talk.

There may not be enough time, but if you can read "Spy the Lie" before the confrontation it may help you be more effective. Having a recording of the confrontation will be valuable to bounce against "Spy the Lie" indicators of deception.

Have her write out a detailed timeline of the affair(s). Who, what, when, where, why. 

I think you should seriously consider a polygraph. And you'll need a good marriage therapist.

Research divorce in your location. Having good data is important even if you want to try to R.


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## SAMHAIN

blahfridge said:


> OP, are there any children?


No children


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## bandit.45

SAMHAIN said:


> No children


Good. 

It will make it easier to divorce her.


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## sokillme

Just know you can find just as much happiness with someone else. Don't make a decision because you are afraid you can't. She already decided without your knowledge to end your marriage. Now you have to decided if you want to have a new one with a cheater and the ghost of another man in it. That is the deal you will be signing up for no way to get around it.


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## TiredHubby2791

This happened 9 years ago, before you were married? Look, I get your pissed, I know I would be hurt, mad, and want revenge. And sickly, I would want to know everything, as much as it would hurt. I would not listen to other posters and immediately end your marriage. You have a lot to fight for. 25 years is a lot to just throw away. Do you two have any kids? If you do, then that is a big consideration as well. Divorce can have a huge impact on kids. Being a child of divorce and being divorced with two kids from that marriage, I can speak to this firsthand. If you have kids, you owe it to them to try and save your marriage.

First, find out if the affair is over. Did she leave the job because the affair ended, or did she leave to keep it going? 

Second, find out if there have been others. Some people only do this once, but most do not. Men more so than women, but wives can be habitual cheaters too. 

Third, get counseling. Work through any issues that are dangling out there that need to be resolved. 

It sounds like it was a one time thing and happened before your marriage and it over. If so, then tell your wife you found out, give her a chance to explain and apologize, then let the healing begin. Always keep you eyes open though. I'm sure you will as trust is now broken and will have to be earned back. 

I wish you the best of luck and hope both of you can work it out.


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## Thor

SAMHAIN said:


> No children


I am in a different head space than I was a few years ago. And, I have kids. Now that I am divorced my view is zero tolerance and scorched earth if someone cheats on me. But I certainly remember the thought processes of why saving the marriage was an important thing. My perspective on CSA is also that nothing will change with her if she doesn't work damn hard at it herself with qualified trauma therapy. While it is not certain she has a trauma history, if so it is going to be a big part of recovering your marriage. Jmho but I will not be in a romantic relationship ever again with a CSA victim due to the risks and challenges. BTDT, lost 35+ years of my life to it.

First, nothing will ever be the same no matter which course you choose. You can't have your old marriage back. If you are lucky, super lucky, you can have a great new marriage going forward. But, your choices into the future do not include resetting the clock to before you knew of the affair. New good marriage with her is possible, though statistically unlikely. Bad marriage with your W is possible and likely. Good new relationships and possible marriage in the future with a different woman is highly likely if you end up divorced.

If I were in your shoes I would give her one chance on a short timeline to see if a good marriage with her is even a rational possibility. Full disclosure, written timeline, polygraph, marriage counseling, individual counseling. Your W needs to understand that this is it, one chance to reveal anything and everything from the past. She needs to realize in her heart that her thought process is highly defective when she thinks what you don't know about won't hurt you. Clearly the truth has come to light and hurt you. So she has to jettison that old ground rule and replace it with total open honesty. She has to volunteer the truth proactively, and never lie by omission.

If she is showing true remorse (not just upset at being caught), and if she complies with some pretty strict requirements going forward, there is a fighting chance for your marriage. If she continues to lie, to hide, or refuses to do hard work, I would leave her immediately.

The longer you stay, the more negative the consequences to you if you later divorce. You'll be older, and your finances will be more problematic.


----------



## MattMatt

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*



SAMHAIN said:


> I have not confronted yet, and I have backed up what I have so far to Google Drive


Change your Google password and switch on 2-step verification.

And sorry to mention this, she might still be cheating with him or with someone else.

Just in case, think about STD tests.


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## SAMHAIN

Thanks for all your thoughts guys. I appreciate all of it, even the stuff I don't want to hear.

Just to clarify, at the time this happened we weren't _technically _married, this all happened about 3 months before the actual wedding. But, we had been living together for 15 years at that point and considered ourselves married for all intents and purposes. 

So here's an update after I've been able to do some more digging. When she left for work today I was able to log into her gmail and yahoo mail account on our PC. I spent a few hours going through them both. The yahoo one is her "junk" account and I didn't find anything there, and it goes back to 2004 witch is odd because if she was really sneaking around a lot I'd expect her to use this account. The gmail is her main account, and it goes back to 2007. I was able to find a total of 6 text message transcripts that were saved from her phone at the time (including the one I already found on the old memory card). I haven't read every inch of them yet, but I think I am able to see the start of everything. It looks like it started out with him throwing in inappropriate comments during their normal work communication, and see slowly and playfully responded. And things just ratcheted up from there. She was his boss at the time, so when this was going on I didn't think it was weird that she was texting with her employees so much. It was part of the job, she had around 5-6 guys (and gals) working in the store she was in charge of. The text transcripts start on 2/24/2009, and the last one is 07/11/2009. Like I said, I haven't read them all in detail yet, but I will before confronting to find some smoking gun comments confirming this was a PA. I did find 2 other later emails from him. One was a year later on 7/17/2010 and it was a google maps location meetup request suggesting he was asking for a hook-up, and the other was on 12/22/2010 with just a random youporn link. My wife didn't respond to either of them (as far as I know, there was no email indicating she did. I'm not sure how I could confirm at this point). I did find out the OM does have a wife. But digging into her a bit, I found an Instagram photo of her showing off an engagement ring, and she said she met the guy exactly 3 years ago from that point, which would have put it at 2/14/2010. After I believe things had ended with my wife. So I'm not sure if trying to contact here would help anything. Probably not. It's possible he did have a girlfriend at the time and she found out and left him, but I'm not sure how I would find out. Anybody who would have that information would be better friends with my wife than me, and may tip her off if I just suddenly start contacting people years later who I never really talked to back then. So I don't know where else to look at this point.

Anyway, I truly believe it ended in the summer before we got married. I haven't so far found any bit of evidence there has been any more betrayal since then. Shortly after she left that company in late 2011, she was with me almost 24-7. In 2012 we started a business together and ran it out of our house until 2017, and now she works in an office with a bunch of woman. So I think things are good these days. After our talks the other nights about the state of our relationships, it seems like she is making an effort to be more affectionate. Of course she doesn't know what drove me to break down and start discussing things, and I'm afraid if I confront too soon I could ruin everything. When I looked at her phone for a minute today, I saw she had some chrome browser tabs opened to a few articles titled like _"I hate being touched and it's ruining my marriage"_, so it looks to me like she is taking things seriously and wants to make the effort to improve things. I will push her to try therapy, but our financial situation isn't great at the moment and we do not have health insurance so I don't know that we could afford anything soon. 

My main concern is to find out if this truly was a one time lapse of judgment that lasted a few months, or if there were other times in the past. I will have to make a plan for when I do confront her so I don't blow my chance and tip my hand on what I already know about. I did download the lying detection eBook suggested above and will read that.

Another bummer is that I downloaded the "Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay" eBook that I've seen recommend in some other threads (I guess the author is a member here?) I read half of it last night, and it's very eye opening if what he says is even somewhat true. Most infidelity thread I've read on this board insists that it is not the BH's fault that the WW cheated, but according to the book I think it absolutely says it's my "fault". When he talks about all the Alpha and Beta stuff, and things the man does or doesn't that least to a wife to cheat, pretty much describes what was going on with us at the time. Am I to believe that this happened because of biology and it wasn't really her "fault". I pushed her to unconsciously seek it out or encourage it because I was too "nice" to her and didn't dominate enough? Who ever else has read the book, what are your thoughts?

Anyway, at least I don't physically feel as ill as I did the last few days, although I'm still no sleeping or eating much. Hope fully it will continue to get better as time goes on, now I will worry about the confrontation if things keep getting better with us. FML


----------



## SAMHAIN

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*



MattMatt said:


> Change your Google password and switch on 2-step verification.
> 
> And sorry to mention this, she might still be cheating with him or with someone else.
> 
> Just in case, think about STD tests.


I already had 2-step on my Google account turned on. Based on why I replied above, I don't think she is still cheating, but the STD thing does worry me. Seeing as this happened 9 years ago, are there any STD's that wouldn't show any symptoms this long?


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## farsidejunky

Hpv & hiv.


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## Lostinthought61

are you telling us that you are going to rug sweep this...whether it happen last year or 9 years ago it happen just the other day for you....you need to address this with her..you need to get answers, you need her side without telling her everything you know and you need to learn to man up and for god sakes stop taking blame for pushing her into the arms of another man...that is stupid thinking


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## [email protected]

SAMHAIN, your WWs A is NOT your fault. It is her's. The others are right. See a lawyer now. Clear the air with her now and start a hard 180 right now. Don't back off in any way. You can analyze all day long, but in the end action is what counts.


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## Thor

If she doesn't address within herself how she came to be a cheater, then there is always a chance she'll cheat again. CSA is one of the top 3 risk factors for cheating, btw.

As to it being your fault, NO IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. Every one of us is an imperfect spouse. We all screw up, we all do stupid things, and we all don't know important stuff that we should know about relationships. If we are a Nice Guy or have other issues which turn off our spouse's attraction to us, it does not make it our fault they go out and cheat! She could have divorced you. She could have begged you to go to marriage therapy. She could have told you that you have issues and need to go for individual counseling. She could have dumped some books in your lap about being more masculine or a better husband.

The one thing she was not justified in doing was cheating on you.

If she does have a history of CSA it is going to be a very large player in all of this. It would explain her cheating before the wedding even though you'd been together for years. It would explain her disinterest in marital sex, and especially that link you found today about hating being touched. It would explain her interest in sex outside of marriage. I hope it is not true she has that history, but if she does it is going to be the mountain she has to conquer before your marriage gets onto solid ground.

And she will likely fight going to IC for CSA. That's a typical response. If it were me, that would be my line in the sand after my experiences with my xw.


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## SAMHAIN

Lostinthought61 said:


> are you telling us that you are going to rug sweep this...whether it happen last year or 9 years ago it happen just the other day for you....you need to address this with her..you need to get answers, you need her side without telling her everything you know and you need to learn to man up and for god sakes stop taking blame for pushing her into the arms of another man...that is stupid thinking


No, sorry if it came out that way. Not going to rug sweep it. Just saying the timing of the confrontation is gonna be tricky if she really is trying to work on the relationship honestly, and wants the same thing as I do. I cannot let this go, but if I confront her this week if things are on a huge upswing for us, things all fall apart? I want to reconcile this, and I hope she does too. But I'll have to see how she reacts and if she really is remorseful. I guess for now I just keep my eyes open and try to gather more intel from the past. I truly hope reconciliation is possible. I guess I should read some more threads on this site to see how other people worked out. Since we have been together since high school, I don't have the experience of dating multiple women and breaking up and getting back together that type of thing. This whole thing is new to me, that's why I'm here.

And I'm not trying to take blame for pushing her to him, but I was shocked and bummed to read in the recommended book that it sounds like what I did. That it was all her biology and she couldn't help it. I don't believe that. But I will use the tips in the book to become a better man and husband, whether we reconcile or not


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## FrazzledSadHusband

Since your wife has bad experiences with men in her past, this article may be helpful to her.

https://forgivenwife.com/archives-unbearable-lessons/

As far as not being married when she cheated, you had been together long enough to be a common law marriage.

Legalities aside, being together that long should have been respected by her.

You are in a hard spot, she's starting to work on marriage, yet this is NOT going to go away.

Take all the advice from TAM & figure out what you think will work best for you.


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## Lostinthought61

Samhain, 

Sadly this is what I read from your response, before even confronting her, you are placing all the power in her hands, your so scared that she will leave you, your playing from a position of weakness, i can already tell this will not end well for your psyche and spirit you will cave the minute she says maybe we should rethink this marriage. You will then beg and tell your sorry for snooping and give her more power....your too afraid to walk away so you will always be the weaker partner.

If that is the case say nothing and suck it up...you will be ahead of the game.


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## SAMHAIN

Lostinthought61 said:


> Samhain,
> 
> Sadly this is what I read from your response, before even confronting her, you are placing all the power in her hands, your so scared that she will leave you, your playing from a position of weakness, i can already tell this will not end well for your psyche and spirit you will cave the minute she says maybe we should rethink this marriage. You will then beg and tell your sorry for snooping and give her more power....your too afraid to walk away so you will always be the weaker partner.
> 
> If that is the case say nothing and suck it up...you will be ahead of the game.


I'm sorry that's the impression that you got. I guess I'm just not great at communicating myself (could be just part of the reason our marriage has had issues). I don't think it's weakness that I still love my wife and hope I can forgive her. I'm not even thinking about D at this point before confronting. After, we'll have to see what happens. The night of DDay I was so hurt and angry, I pretty much told her things have to change for the better with our marriage. Again, she doesn't know what I know so maybe she is responding to what she thinks of me as "manning up" and telling her that I want this to work. We had a few serious talks and are making clear progress. I'm actually not scared she would take the step to leave me at this point. I don't see how she has the power if we're working towards the goal I want (and hope she wants too, and I think that I saw her researching what's wrong with her and how to fix it without telling me is a good first step).


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## Andy1001

I can’t help noticing that the name you chose to use is Samhain which is an Irish Gaelic word for the start of winter,or more to the point the beginning of the “darker part” of the year.Are you seeing this as the beginning of a dark part of your marriage or are you seeing it as the beginning of the end.
I’m not judging,just curious, are you predisposed to ending your marriage and are you venting here rather than seeking advice.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

There is sadly wisdom in the statement "You have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it."

To add to your list of things to do, work on yourself. I am NOT saying you are to blame for her affair. Rather, work out, take some hard looks in the mirror, be the best you, that YOU can be.

Operate from a position of strength. Get yourself to the mindset of "Being OK with either direction your marriage may go.

When you finally do confront, you need to be strong, firm, and know that if the wife denies, gaslights or tries to turn the affair around to you, you can walk away knowing you did give it your best shot, AND be in a better place to find someone else.

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, may need to read "No More Mr. NIce Guy"


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## SAMHAIN

Andy1001 said:


> I can’t help noticing that the name you chose to use is Samhain which is an Irish Gaelic word for the start of winter,or more to the point the beginning of the “darker part” of the year.Are you seeing this as the beginning of a dark part of your marriage or are you seeing it as the beginning of the end.
> I’m not judging,just curious, are you predisposed to ending your marriage and are you venting here rather than seeking advice.


Funny you mention that. I know what Samhain is, I just didn't think of it like that. It just happens to be my favorite time of year and one of my favorite rock bands :grin2:


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## SAMHAIN

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> There is sadly wisdom in the statement "You have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it."
> 
> To add to your list of things to do, work on yourself. I am NOT saying you are to blame for her affair. Rather, work out, take some hard looks in the mirror, be the best you, that YOU can be.
> 
> Operate from a position of strength. Get yourself to the mindset of "Being OK with either direction your marriage may go.
> 
> When you finally do confront, you need to be strong, firm, and know that if the wife denies, gaslights or tries to turn the affair around to you, you can walk away knowing you did give it your best shot, AND be in a better place to find someone else.
> 
> I haven't seen it mentioned yet, may need to read "No More Mr. NIce Guy"


Thanks. This is the kind of information and encouragement I am looking for here. I do plan on working on myself and have already started. I will check out that book


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## Thor

SAMHAIN said:


> I don't think it's weakness that I still love my wife and hope I can forgive her. I'm not even thinking about D at this point before confronting. After, we'll have to see what happens. The night of DDay I was so hurt and angry, I pretty much told her things have to change for the better with our marriage. Again, she doesn't know what I know so maybe she is responding to what she thinks of me as "manning up" and telling her that I want this to work.


You're not on the right track for success.


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## OutofRetirement

SAMHAIN said:


> I was able to find a total of 6 text message transcripts that were saved from her phone at the time (including the one I already found on the old memory card).


So definitely you don't have anywhere near the whole thing. She probably texted him more than 6 times during he concert alone. No way whe was doing the things she did with only 6 texts. You found about 40 photos. You didn't see the end-affair message. You didn't see a normal affair trajectory. Co-worker affairs showing/receiving boobies while with the fiancee, there is more than 6 texts. What you discovered here is that your wife was not very diligent in deleting everything.



SAMHAIN said:


> I did find 2 other later emails from him. One was a year later on 7/17/2010 and it was a google maps location meetup request suggesting he was asking for a hook-up, and the other was on 12/22/2010 with just a random youporn link. My wife didn't respond to either of them (as far as I know, there was no email indicating she did. I'm not sure how I could confirm at this point).


At that point, the affair was still ongoing. Just a few stray messages your wife was sloppy in deleting, that's all. Coworker affairs don't end quickly or easily. Without some messages saying "it's over, don't call me anymore" from the one who didn't want to end it.



SAMHAIN said:


> Anyway, I truly believe it ended in the summer before we got married. I haven't so far found any bit of evidence there has been any more betrayal since then.


Believing it ended at any time before the "stress" when she left the store is just wishful thinking, willful blindess, denial of the entirety of the circumstances. She may have ended sometime sooner, maybe not, but the lack of texting when obviously huge numbers of texting are missing, is just a wild guess. Lack of texts mean nothing.



SAMHAIN said:


> Shortly after she left that company in late 2011, she was with me almost 24-7. In 2012 we started a business together and ran it out of our house until 2017, and now she works in an office with a bunch of woman. So I think things are good these days.


Somewhat faulty thinking. The same mailman comes by, the same office supplies guy comes by, the water cooler guy, the HVAC guy, the landscaper, security guard, copy maintenance guy, salespersons, and never mind customers. I've seen a few affairs with those with my own eyes, watching them meet for lunch, as far as I knew nobody at the office knew (unless they went to the same out of the way restaurant on those certain days). You didn't know anything was wrong the last time, either.



SAMHAIN said:


> She’s addicted to her phone, so I haven’t had much chance to take a good look at her current one.


Guarding the phone is the number one red flag of cheating.



SAMHAIN said:


> I did glance quickly the other day, and while I did see a text from the OM, it was from 8 months ago and he asked “Hi, how are you”. She didn’t reply (unless she deleted it, but if that’s the case she would have deleted the whole conversation)


No, it's possible she could delete some texts and not the others. She is not an evil scientist who makes no mistakes. She is not diligent in covering her tracks. You never could have caught her if she were diligent. She is still his "friend" on Facebook. Her behavior before this is, if not sketchy, not affectionate and loving. She definitely is messed up in her head and has serious issues, likely from her childhood traumas. She is searching online, basically admitting she doesn't want her loving husband to touch her. That is based on her emotional issues, not based on you. But you still don't know for sure if she is cheating now. Me, I personally would consider just her still being friends with him in an online social app would consider betrayal to me.



SAMHAIN said:


> When I looked at her phone for a minute today, I saw she had some chrome browser tabs opened to a few articles titled like _"I hate being touched and it's ruining my marriage"_, so it looks to me like she is taking things seriously and wants to make the effort to improve things.


I agree with you on this, it is a good sign. If she was actively cheating, I'd expect her to not be genuinely searching for help online to improve your marriage.



SAMHAIN said:


> Am I to believe that this happened because of biology and it wasn't really her "fault". I pushed her to unconsciously seek it out or encourage it because I was too "nice" to her and didn't dominate enough? Who ever else has read the book, what are your thoughts?


There are biological impulses. Have you ever heard of the "lizard brain"? You can't just decide to make your heart stop beating, or stop breathing, just by your decision and will. You can prevent from cheating by overriding your impulses. Our emotional impulses, like our hearts and lungs, can be impaired. Your wife's childhood traumas may have changed somewhat what her impulses are. She may subconsciously find any family male members to be unsafe, for example, which would not be a normal impulse otherwise. There are some behaviors that have not changed all that much over hundreds of years. From what I can see, men mostly pursue women romantically, men mostly pay on first dates, mostly men propose for marriage, mostly men pay for an expensive ring, mostly women like to be pursued and adored and desired, mostly women change their names when married, etc. MOSTLY, meaning more than 50% of the population follow these behaviors still. 

I am a dinosaur, figuratively, but back when I cared about meeting new women, all the women in my life, my sisters and their friends, they almost to a woman would not ask a man out, wanted a guy who could "protect" them and make them feel safe. I see my young adult nieces and nephews and I don't care to directly ask, but it seems to me that they mostly have the same preferences as their parents. Is this biological imperative or learned behavior, I don't know. Does it matter? Does your wife feel that way, too, or some other way? That is the thing that matters to you. The deal is, after this mess is resolved, if you're still with her, communicate more openly and ask her what she likes, does she enjoy you being more assertive or decisive or leading the way. (By the way, I know my sisters and her friends back in the day mostly would say they wanted the guys to just know how to act, if they had to tell them, that was somehow not as good.)(Also by the way, back in the day, I know my sisters and her friends wanted the guys to "be themselves" and not try to be something they are not. This latter I think is actually good advice.)


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## sokillme

Can I ask you why you want to R with her when you have yet to even know the full story? You don't know that this is the only time. Like really why? Would you make any other decision this way? Would you buy a house, start a business or any other life changing decision like that? Are you sure this isn't just a purely emotional decision? Is it wise to make a purely emotional decision at a time in your life when your emotions are probably the most vulnerable they have ever been? 

Some things to think about.

Look I don't have a lot of faith in R, as everyone here knows but if you are going to do it, the way I see it is your only chance is. 

First your wife has to get what she did, I mean get it in her soul. The deep shame of it. To do that she has to have the ability to get it. If not then she won't be willing to do the next step. 

The next step is a large amount of work. She needs to be fully motivated to work maybe years to figure out why she did it. And the answer can't be because you didn't provide her with something because we all know marriage doesn't solve your problems, so at any given moment there is always something that you can use as an excuse to cheat again.

If you don't have those 2 things you are at a very large risk of it happening again. You are still at a risk in my opinion. It's like being married to an alcoholic, they have patterns that they are at risk of falling back into if they don't work every day. 

Next there is you. How are you going to feel about that 2 years 5 years 10 years from now. Are you going to resent it more because you feel secure that you have established her love for you again, so that part of your reasoning for wanting to stay together is gone and now you are left with out the same motivation? That happens a lot. You really need to think why are you doing this, and it's a good idea to detach for a while so you are not making a purely emotional decision.

You only get one life, time is finite.


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## SAMHAIN

OutofRetirement said:


> So definitely you don't have anywhere near the whole thing. She probably texted him more than 6 times during he concert alone. No way whe was doing the things she did with only 6 texts. You found about 40 photos. You didn't see the end-affair message. You didn't see a normal affair trajectory. Co-worker affairs showing/receiving boobies while with the fiancee, there is more than 6 texts. What you discovered here is that your wife was not very diligent in deleting everything.


Thanks for all your thoughts. I just want to correct the above. I don't mean I found 6 single texts. I found 6 transcripts. Each one is for a single day, and there are dozens and dozens back and forth between them. These 6 days are spread out from late Feb to Mid July. Again, I haven't had the stomach to go through line by line yet (but I will, believe me), but what I have seen it is pretty bad. Like I said, I can see where it started. He started dropping mildly inappropriate comments (especially considering she was his boss), and they just got more and more blatant. She didn't instigate, but for sure she played along from the start. So sickening that she would betray me, and be so stupid. She didn't know at the time that the job wouldn't work out, she made good money and had room for advancement. Even those beginning texts could have gotten her fired. 

But you are right. I don't know the *whole* story. I will have to have her come totally clean before I can plan long term. Before this happened to me, I never imagined cheating could be so painful and complicated. There don't seem to be any easy answers. I guess that's why these forums are good, so we can get incites from all angles. I do appreciate all the feedback


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## SAMHAIN

sokillme said:


> Can I ask you why you want to R with her when you have yet to even know the full story? You don't know that this is the only time. Like really why? Would you make any other decision this way? Would you buy a house, start a business or any other life changing decision like that? Are you sure this isn't just a purely emotional decision? Is it wise to make a purely emotional decision at a time in your life when your emotions are probably the most vulnerable they have ever been?


Is it bad to _want_ to R? I'm not saying we will, especially after the whole truth comes out. But that would be the outcome I would prefer. I don't think I'm naive enough to believe R is a slam dunk, but I do prefer it over D. AT THIS POINT. That could all change once I confront. You're right, I don't have all the info so why would I just jump to D?


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## Malaise

SAMHAIN said:


> Is it bad to _want_ to R? I'm not saying we will, *especially after the whole truth comes out*. But that would be the outcome I would prefer. I don't think I'm naive enough to believe R is a slam dunk, but I do prefer it over D. AT THIS POINT. That could all change once I confront. You're right, I don't have all the info so why would I just jump to D?


Don't be that naïve to think you'll get the whole truth when you confront.

Look up 'trickle truth'


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## Rubix Cubed

SAMHAIN said:


> He started dropping mildly inappropriate comments (especially considering she was his boss), and they just got more and more blatant. She didn't instigate, but for sure she played along from the start. So sickening that she would betray me, and be so stupid. She didn't know at the time that the job wouldn't work out, she made good money and had room for advancement. *Even those beginning texts could have gotten her fired.*


 Are you sure that's not what actually happened?


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## sokillme

SAMHAIN said:


> Is it bad to _want_ to R? I'm not saying we will, especially after the whole truth comes out. But that would be the outcome I would prefer. I don't think I'm naive enough to believe R is a slam dunk, but I do prefer it over D. AT THIS POINT. That could all change once I confront. You're right, I don't have all the info so why would I just jump to D?


To me the best outcome to prefer is you being happy and having a healthy emotional life. Not R or D. Yes R is real bad if you end up getting cheated on again 10 years later. Look if you read posts on here and other boards you end up seeing a pattern. People who cheat have emotional issues. Those things don't go away without work and sometimes they don't go away. I am just warning you to be careful. You need to see your wife as who she is, not who you thought she was. I know that is painful but it is a much safer place to be. Remember cheaters lie, that is what they do, they have practice and they are good at it. Look all I am saying is don't rush one or the other because right now you are not in your right mind you have suffered great trauma. 

You don't really know yet what you will be feeling like a month from now a year from now. 10 years from now. I am sorry but the awful truth is your whole life has changed from this point on. It's probably one of the most painful things you will ever go through. The early days are mostly shock and adrenaline. They call it a roller coaster and it really is. So what I am saying is it's too soon to know what will make you happy and healthy. This is why I am saying to wait before you commit to anything. Don't make decisions that may lead you open to being vulnerable. For instance if you tell her you want to R right away she may use that as leverage. However if you give her divorce papers (which you can stop) and tell her maybe you will change your mind if she can prove that she is worth it. Then you can evaluate if she has what it takes to really fix herself. 

Plus like a child who has disobeyed she needs consequences. The risk has to have in the end not have been worth it. If you shoulder all the pain she will end up feeling like it was worth it, or like you will always shoulder the pain. That is harsh but that is also human nature, your wife is a cheater, they don't think like we do. 

Better to do this from a position of strength. 

One more thing just make sure you want to R for the right reasons. The ones who do it out of fear never really seem to heal. No matter what happens if you can get to the place that you know you will be alright either way you will have a much better life. 

But you are right it's your life.


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## Jasel

It's not bad to want to R, but I find the betrayed husbands who come here and their first reaction is to jump head first into saving the marriage and don't even want to consider divorce, tend to be the ones who make the most and worst mistakes. 

I'm not saying you shouldn't want to reconcile, but divorce has to be on the table. In fact you should already be planning on speaking with divorce attorney's just to know your options. The good thing about your situation is you haven't confronted yet like most people do when they discover the cheating. So you can plan, get advice, set things up for yourself, etc as you need to. Especially since you don't have children.

But you can't be willing to R when you don't even know all the facts and you don't know what you'll be forgiving (or not) yet. Not to mention your emotions in regards to her cheating are going to be all over the place for the next several months at least, but realistically most likely years. Whether you stay with her or not.

As for your not wanting to confront because things are going good in the marriage, I don't know what to say to that. It doesn't even make any sense, that's just fear talking. You just found out your wife cheated on you. The status of your marriage is going to take a huge hit, it doesn't matter if you guys are on Cloud 9.


----------



## Rhubarb

SAMHAIN said:


> No, sorry if it came out that way. Not going to rug sweep it. Just saying the timing of the confrontation is gonna be tricky if she really is trying to work on the relationship honestly, and wants the same thing as I do.


The confrontation is not as tricky as you think. Don't kowtow to her. Demand answers. Don't settle for half truths. She needs to believe you are serious and you are in danger of divorcing her. Anything else is going to work against you. I'm speaking from experience here. Showing weakness now will be like the slow death of your sanity. If she gets mad, let her. If she storms out the door, DON'T run after her and DON'T take a conciliatory tone. If she's serious about staying with you she must be the one to ask for forgiveness not the other way around, and she will do so if she is in fact serious.


----------



## VladDracul

SAMHAIN said:


> Is it bad to _want_ to R? I'm not saying we will, especially after the whole truth comes out.


I think if she did these deeds 9 years ago and things have been ok since, R would be somewhat of a misnomer. She's been R'd for 9 years. Quick question. Whose idea was it to live together 15 years before the marriage? (to look at it another way, who would have agreed to marry quicker if the other hadn't have been foot dragging about getting married) Be dead honest about answering my question or don't answer at all.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

VladDracul said:


> I think if she did these deeds 9 years ago and things have been ok since, R would be somewhat of a misnomer. She's been R'd for 9 years. Quick question. Whose idea was it to live together 15 years before the marriage? (to look at it another way, who would have agreed to marry quicker if the other hadn't have been foot dragging about getting married) Be dead honest about answering my question or don't answer at all.


In HER mind, she had been in R, in his, he just found out his wife was giving to some POS what she won't give to him. 

That's something else OP will have to deal with.


----------



## Windwalker

OP,

Some men are able to R, some just don't have it in them. I absolutely do not have it in me. When I was at the end of my first marriage and found out that my xw cheated, I used every nasty thing her family said about each other to sow discord,among the other things that I did. I will readily admit my bias on cheating spouses. 

Regardless, you can not expect to go anywhere in this situation from a position of weakness and lack of knowledge. You will get railroaded and trickle truthed. Gather evidence and steel your emotions, as they are your enemy. Then from a position of strength, confront.

Google "cheaters script". There are thousands of threads here and they all tend to play out the same way, just slight variations on the details. Knowledge is power.


----------



## oldshirt

Jasel said:


> It's not bad to want to R, but I find the betrayed husbands who come here and their first reaction is to jump head first into saving the marriage and don't even want to consider divorce, tend to be the ones who make the most and worst mistakes.
> 
> I'm not saying you shouldn't want to reconcile, but divorce has to be on the table. In fact you should already be planning on speaking with divorce attorney's just to know your options. The good thing about your situation is you haven't confronted yet like most people do when they discover the cheating. So you can plan, get advice, set things up for yourself, etc as you need to. Especially since you don't have children.
> 
> But you can't be willing to R when you don't even know all the facts and you don't know what you'll be forgiving (or not) yet. Not to mention your emotions in regards to her cheating are going to be all over the place for the next several months at least, but realistically most likely years. Whether you stay with her or not.
> 
> As for your not wanting to confront because things are going good in the marriage, I don't know what to say to that. It doesn't even make any sense, that's just fear talking. You just found out your wife cheated on you. The status of your marriage is going to take a huge hit, it doesn't matter if you guys are on Cloud 9.


Read this post again and again until you understand every point clearly. 

In order for a true R to occur, D must be an entirely viable option that you are completely ready, willing and able to execute at the drop of a hat. 

Get your wagons circled and your ducks in a row so the moment she lies or backpedals or tries to manipulate you, you can pull the ejection handle and step into your new life. 

Without that level of preparations and determination, you are simply pleading for her mercy and asking her for her good behavior and asking her to not betray you anymore and then hoping that she grows wings and a halo and hoping that she treats you nicely going forward. 

It's like France hoping Hitler plays nice. 

Be your own man and prepare for you own future and be strong, determined and prepared enough to make your own life with or without her before even stepping up to the table.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

oldshirt said:


> Read this post again and again until you understand every point clearly.
> 
> In order for a true R to occur, D must be an entirely viable option that you are completely ready, willing and able to execute at the drop of a hat.
> 
> Get your wagons circled and your ducks in a row so the moment she lies or backpedals or tries to manipulate you, you can pull the ejection handle and step into your new life.
> 
> Without that level of preparations and determination, you are simply pleading for her mercy and asking her for her good behavior and asking her to not betray you anymore and then hoping that she grows wings and a halo and hoping that she treats you nicely going forward.
> 
> It's like France hoping Hitler plays nice.
> 
> Be your own man and prepare for you own future and be strong, determined and prepared enough to make your own life with or without her before even stepping up to the table.


^^ This right here^^

OP, before you confront, goto lawyers and get paperwork. Have all your details handled.

Then it's up to you to decide how to confront, personally, the > on my shoulder would be to be face to face and ask her to "whatever" the POSOM asked her for, using the EXACT same wording. Watch her face for a reaction, if she stays stone faced, then you know how good of deceiver she is.

If she says NO, hand her the D notice & walk away. If she tries deny, minimize it, etc, hand her the D notice and walk away. Unless she turns into a blubbering puddle of snot, hand her the papers and walk away.

Even if she turns into a puddle, then layout what your conditions are to attempt a R. Because "Lucy got a lot of splaining to do".

If you make it too easy to R, and there is no consequence for her, she will be more tempted to do it again.


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## TRy

@SAMHAIN:
1. This is still new to you so do not make a firm decision on reconciliation (“R”) or divorce (“D”) until you give yourself more time to figure things out.
2. Prepare for divorce so that it remains a viable option.
3. Pursue R as if you have decided on R so that it remains a viable option. Remember that you can always later say no to R, but that you cannot say yes to R unless it is offered.


----------



## TRy

oldshirt said:


> It's like France hoping Hitler plays nice.


 Your statement “It’s like France hoping Hitler plays nice” is on the money. I will be stealing this line from you.


----------



## SAMHAIN

Thanks guys, you've given me lots to think about. I'm glad I came here before confronting doing something stupid. What you guys are saying makes sense. I will look into D before I take the next step. My situation is a bit tricky at the moment though. Since our business failed a year ago, I've been out of work and just doing things here and there to make a few extra bucks (selling things on eBay, etc..). My wife is the one bringing in a steady pay check. It would probably be in my best interest to find a job, so I can at least afford to talk to a D lawyer, lol. That means it will be probably months before I confront. While that will give me time to gather more information, it will be hell. It's hard to look at her without something popping into my mind. But I will do what has to be done. It will also give me time to work on myself. I wanted to join a gym for myself anyway (I'm over weight, so I really don't want to die early), but this is just that much more motivation to improve myself. 

While I'm waiting to get "my ducks in a row", should I try and push her into therapy, either MC or IC? While I had said things were better after we had our "talks" a few days ago, we had an upsetting "fight" last night and I feel we are back to square one. Would counseling help or hurt things before confrontation? Or should I just live with the status quo for the next few months until my situation improves?


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## drifting on

SAMHAIN

Ok, you just found out your wife cheated nine years ago, never having been cheated on the process you must now take needs to direct and decisive. I’ve read your thread and you have been given some incredibly insightful advice on what measures to take from here going forward. My concern, and this is huge, is that you are somewhat forsaking the advice being given to you. It is because of this that I fear you are going to be making a huge mistake, one that isn’t based on intelligent thinking and your feet being firmly on the ground. 

I am four years into reconciliation, and by no means an expert, and I actually thought like you for a few days. Initially, reconciliation sounded good, then divorce sounded good, and then I realized I was in no position to make any decision. My emotions were so scattered I had no idea what was best for ME. That’s right, ME, what is best for me. This should be your only concern, your wife is way off in the distance as to what is best for her. That’s really not a worry you should even be thinking about. You control you, that’s it, so get yourself under control, then begin to get healthy again. By healthy I mean physically and emotionally. This will take quite a bit of work, and your wife has no factor in this. 

Wait for six months before you make any decision on whether to divorce or reconcile. Let your emotions settle and get to a healthier position. During this time find out from a divorce attorney what your rights are. Find out where it will leave you financially. Have your attorney draw up divorce papers, list adultery and the OM as reasons for why. Have them in a folder when you confront your wife, but don’t show them to her yet. You will need them for when you have a plan to confront. Now get busy on become healthier, see a therapist to help get you healthy. 

As you get healthy you will find that infidelity is the fault of one person, those who commit adultery. Oh you have some blame, but that is in the marriage, infidelity is the fault of your wife, period. Of course neither of you were perfect in your marriage, but the infidelity is not of any blame on you. I’m sure your wife did not ask to date OM, did she? Did she tell or ask you she was sending pictures? Did she tell or ask you that she was attracted to someone else? I’m sure she didn’t, probably because you would not approve of such a thing. So let her own half the marriage issues and all of the infidelity while you accept half the marriage issues. What you must learn to do, is to separate your issues you brought into the marriage and then infidelity. They are separate, and it is difficult to separate the two. 

When you confront, you should be in a place that you are ok no matter what direction this goes. Then have a polygraph scheduled for that afternoon on the day you confront. Eliminate the trickle truth, one chance is what your wife has to come completely clean. Then discuss in detail the timeline of the affair. Explain that divorce and reconciliation are on the table for a specified amount of time. Your wife has zero remorse at this moment, and I’m sure you’re asking why. If she had remorse she would have confessed by now, but instead she has compartmentalized what she has done. She may feel guilty, but that’s not remorse and certainly not much guilt as she hasn’t confessed. Nine years of deception your wife is capable of, remember that. 

SAMHAIN, reconciliation shouldn’t be a thought in your head right now, you need much more information. Reconciliation is some of the most difficult work I’ve done, and although we seem to be making it, the failure rate is high. Not only is your wife not ready, but you aren’t either, it takes full commitment from both of you. I don’t mean this in a bad way, but you aren’t ready to commit fully either, that shows in your posts quite clearly.


----------



## SAMHAIN

VladDracul said:


> I think if she did these deeds 9 years ago and things have been ok since, R would be somewhat of a misnomer. She's been R'd for 9 years. Quick question. Whose idea was it to live together 15 years before the marriage? (to look at it another way, who would have agreed to marry quicker if the other hadn't have been foot dragging about getting married) Be dead honest about answering my question or don't answer at all.


I asked her to marry me while we were still in high school. She said yes right away. Because we were so young, we lived with her parents for a short time, then when the chance to move out of state came around we jumped on it. She doesn't have a good relationship with her parents so she was happy to get away. Honestly, the foot dragging to officially tie the knot was mine. Because of our sexual issues (hers really), I wanted to wait until things got better. Looking back I realize I should have put my foot down and required her to seek some counseling. Whenever it was brought up, she resisted and because of the way I am I don't like to upset her. It's easier to just pretend nothing was wrong. She always appeared to be happy being with me, always told me how lucky she was to be with me and couldn't imagine life without me. Our life together was good, except for the lack of sex. I understood early one that she had issues, possibly due to CSA and how she lost her virginity. Also, while we were still in high school shortly after we first started having sex she got pregnant. We were both young and stupid I guess. Because of her relationship with her parents, she didn't want to or couldn't keep it, so we had an abortion. At the time she seemed to handle it ok, but we haven't talked much about it in the years that followed so I'm not sure how much that affected her mental state when it comes to sex. Our whole situation is messy. I just wish she had been able to talk to me and want to try and work to fix things instead of doing what she ended up doing. I realize now of course I've made a lot of mistakes in the past, but that's done. Only thing I can do now is move forward


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## VladDracul

If you waited 15 years to marry because she had problems giving it up, why did you marry her in the first place? Marriage and lack of sex is only a good mix in very, very limited circumstances. Most men and women get the sex rug jerked out from under them after saying "I do". 
My reason for the question is that is not unusual for the partner of a person who is resisting marriage to start keeping their option open and looking for a better deal. If I'm reading you right and she hasn't been ally catting around since married, she gets a couple of points. Unless the lack of sex, if I'm reading you right, is not offset by other qualities she has that adds quality to your life, you perhaps you should consider leaving the marriage.


----------



## MattMatt

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*



SAMHAIN said:


> I already had 2-step on my Google account turned on. Based on why I replied above, I don't think she is still cheating, but the STD thing does worry me. Seeing as this happened 9 years ago, are there any STD's that wouldn't show any symptoms this long?


She might still be having affairs? Probably not, but it's not worth risking your health over.


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## Thor

SAMHAIN said:


> Is it bad to _want_ to R?


SoKillMe post #48 and Jasel post #49 are 100% correct.

One thing I want to point out is that R vs D is not really an accurate depiction. There is no going back to the marriage you thought you had. There is a possibility of creating a completely new relationship with your W, which may turn out to be good. People call that R, but it isn't really a reconciling of differences. It isn't like you are agreeing on a parenting issue or a division of chores conflict. Your relationship with your W will forever be different whether you stay married or get divorced.

Going forward you will have either a good relationship with her, or you will leave the relationship with her. So many of us get into this mindset of "saving" the marriage. Nope, not possible.

It is up to you to build your future with these new circumstances the world has thrown at you.


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## MattMatt

Thor said:


> SoKillMe post #48 and Jasel post #49 are 100% correct.
> 
> One thing I want to point out is that R vs D is not really an accurate depiction. There is no going back to the marriage you thought you had. There is a possibility of creating a completely new relationship with your W, which may turn out to be good. People call that R, but it isn't really a reconciling of differences. It isn't like you are agreeing on a parenting issue or a division of chores conflict. Your relationship with your W will forever be different whether you stay married or get divorced.
> 
> Going forward you will have either a good relationship with her, or you will leave the relationship with her. So many of us get into this mindset of "saving" the marriage. Nope, not possible.
> 
> It is up to you to build your future with these new circumstances the world has thrown at you.


It's possible. But not necessarily easy. (Been there, done that, got the t-shirt...)


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## MattMatt

Athol Kay is an idiot!  Diapers and Drivel: Why "Married Man Sex Life" blog sucks


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## Jasel

I don't recommend waiting months to confront. That's just torture for yourself and unnecessary. If you can't file anytime soon then you can't file anytime soon. I do agree that finding a job should be a priority so you have your own source of steady income. Probably good to have one before confrontation as well.

And see if there are divorce lawyers in your area who will give a free consultation for an hour or so, and if they will what documents should you bring.

In your case I think the best thing to do is have divorce paperwork on hand when you confront, just so she sees how serious this is. I can almost guarantee that if this was your wife's only affair, she's had 9 years to deal with it and put it behind her. For you it's like the affair just happened and she's probably not going to get that. She needs to see possible consequences (ie: divorce) staring her in the face. Again that doesn't mean you have to go through with divorce, but you're really going to have to go in this prepared to play hardball. Especially since you still don't know for sure how she'll react. 

Also it sounds like therapy would be a good idea. At least individual counseling for her.


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## Thor

SAMHAIN said:


> I just wish she had been able to talk to me and want to try and work to fix things instead of doing what she ended up doing.


Sexual problems and what is quoted above is quite in line with CSA. If it happened, it is going to be central to her part of the hard work of R.

Her mind is programmed with ground rules, assumptions, and strategies learned in childhood from extremely abnormal and damaging events. Chances are that deception and hiding information were extremely good strategies when she was a child, but the CSA survivor doesn't realize that those are destructive and abnormal in adult relationships.

My ex bailed on MC when her CSA was brought up. She couldn't handle the thought of dealing with it in IC, and she knew it was an important issue which the MC needed to address.

My advice would be to downplay to her the CSA but make it mandatory for R that she go to IC. And, I would bring up her CSA in MC so that it is not rugswept.

Regarding a lawyer, the finances may not be an issue. Your W cannot wall you off from access to money once you've started the D process. Also, you can get a free consultation with most atty's. 15-30 minutes where you can ask questions and get basic information. Go to several, and pick the one you like. They can even explain to you how the money will work for them to get paid!

You can DIY a lot of the D process, but do use a lawyer to at least review and advise. They don't need to argue in court, and they don't even need to prepare much paperwork. You can use free forms from your state's court website. Since you have no children it should be a pretty simple division of existing assets. There may be alimony, which at this point she would pay to you most likely, though that is something you can get answered in a free consultation.


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## Thor

The book "After the Affair" by Janis Spring is excellent. It is aimed at both the betrayed and the cheater. It explains what you each need to process through the betrayal and affair. Your W would certainly benefit from reading it, especially about how to you this just happened.


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## sokillme

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> In HER mind, she had been in R, in his, he just found out his wife was giving to some POS what she won't give to him.
> 
> That's something else OP will have to deal with.


How do we know that she ended the thing of her own free will. Maybe the guy ended it. I think it is a bad idea to assume she has remorse and was the one to end the affair. Maybe he moved away or moved on and she thinks back on it as a nice little moment in her life. Even if she did that doesn't mean should doesn't look back on it and him fondly.

My overall point (and I am not saying you are doing this by the way) my overall point is lot of times with affairs that ended years before they are caught, that there is an assumption the the cheater learned a lesson and realizes what they did. That they ended the affair and are racked with guilt every day. Why would that be the default assumption, only because that is how WE would feel. I think that is a very large stretch. They DON'T think like us, that is why they can do it in the first place. 

It continues this problem where people who don't cheat project motives and moral thinking on people who do and who, by their actions show they are basically immoral. At least at the present moment. Lots of people have a hard time accepting that their spouse is not the good person they thought they were. But go read on love shack the posts from people right in the middle of affairs. They ARE immoral. They really don't think like us, it's a bad mistake to think that they do, at least to default that they do. The best assumptions to have is that they are a liar and they enjoyed it. Because they are lairs and they wouldn't do it if they didn't enjoy it. That is what we know for sure, all the other stuff is conjecture until proven otherwise, with long term action.

Again not saying you are doing that. Just in general the tone always seems to be from everyone assume the best when the spouse has proven the worst.


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## MJJEAN

Thor said:


> Sexual problems and what is quoted above is quite in line with CSA.


The sexual issues OP related are also consistent with a woman who isn't sexually attracted to and/or isn't sexually satisfied by her mate, but is too emotionally attached to walk away.

As a CSA survivor, let me say this. Whether or not OP's wife was sexually abused is completely immaterial. At some point, usually the age of reason, people become responsible for their actions regardless of what has happened to them in the past. The only ones who get a pass are the ones so damaged, so insane, they cannot function in society and must be institutionalized. Everyone else gets to take the blame for their shyte.


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## ABHale

*Re: Can't create a new thread in the infidelity forum*



SAMHAIN said:


> I already had 2-step on my Google account turned on. Based on why I replied above, I don't think she is still cheating, but the STD thing does worry me. Seeing as this happened 9 years ago, are there any STD's that wouldn't show any symptoms this long?


Several including genital herpes.


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## OutofRetirement

Sam, there are a lot of way to look at this. One way is that she cheated years ago and you have been happy enough. So it's not the cheating, it's the you finding out about it that's the problem. I could say the same thing about cancer. The point is, you can't ignore it, now that you know.

I suggest, before you confront, to see if you can take her temperature. So far, so good, that she is searching about how to fix things you brought up already.

Have a talk, write down some talking points if needed, from what you want in the marriage.

Bring up the childhood sexual abuse straight on, ask her about that, and ask her to be open and vulnerable with you.

Tell her you love her and want a truly intimate marriage with her, to share each other and not hide anything.

Tell her any secrets you've held. Ask her to do the same to you.

Tell her what your goals and dreams are with her, as far as sex, intimacy, and dreams for the future, and ask her to tell you about hers.

Tell her what you want to improve the marriage. Date nights? Spending more time together? Spending less time together? Being open and honest and communicating more frequently? More frequent sex? Different types of sex? Tell her openly what you would like. Then ask her to tell you openly what she wants.

If she is guarding the phone, without sharing passwords, bring up that you don't want any secrets between you, and what possibly could be on there that either of you can't see the other? Open up your passwords for her, see if she reciprocates. Tell her how you feel about her apparently excessive use of her phone. And any other major things that bother you. Hopefully, there are not a lot of MAJOR things to bring up. Then ask her to tell you any MAJOR things that she doesn't like about you.

Tell her you both just reached 40, you are possibly halfway through your life, and you looked back and thought about what you've done, how it's worked, and how you want to improve things in the future.

Don't bring up the cheating. Yet. See if she comes clean after you ask her to bring up any past secrets. Give it a week to see if she comes clean on her own. After a week, if she hasn't opened it up, then tell her what you just found about her past affair.


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## Marc878

IMO you get your **** together and go front and center.

Cut out the passive agressive Mr Nice Guy approach.

Only a weak guy plays games and tiptoes through or around the tulips.


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## SAMHAIN

My main thing now I think is that I want to confront properly so I have the best possible chance of uncovering if there is anyone else I don't already know about. I'm 99% sure there hasn't been anybody else since the guy I already know about, based on the digging I've been doing and based on our life situation during that time frame. What I'm worried about is the time frame before this started. It's difficult to find digital records to snoop when you're talking the time before smart phones 15 years ago or longer. 

I do no for sure now that she had sex with the OM based on the text messages I discovered. I sat down today and painfully read them all. I had gotten through most of them and I was starting to feel like it might just be a sexting/fantasy type thing for her (which is still inexcusable, but not as bad as a PA. To me at least), then the bomb dropped. There was a text from him that said: "U know I haven't even jerked off since we f**ked. That's how good u did. " Reading that was almost like a second DDay for me.

Since I'm new to this forum, are there any threads here that deal with tips on how to make the most of the confrontation? If she does agree to go to MC before I confront, is it a good idea to confront while we're at the therapist, or is that a generally bad idea?


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

SAMHAIN said:


> My main thing now I think is that I want to confront properly so I have the best possible chance of uncovering if there is anyone else I don't already know about. I'm 99% sure there hasn't been anybody else since the guy I already know about, based on the digging I've been doing and based on our life situation during that time frame. What I'm worried about is the time frame before this started. It's difficult to find digital records to snoop when you're talking the time before smart phones 15 years ago or longer.
> 
> I do no for sure now that she had sex with the OM based on the text messages I discovered. I sat down today and painfully read them all. I had gotten through most of them and I was starting to feel like it might just be a sexting/fantasy type thing for her (which is still inexcusable, but not as bad as a PA. To me at least), then the bomb dropped. There was a text from him that said: "*U know I haven't even jerked off since we f**ked. That's how good u did. *" Reading that was almost like a second DDay for me.
> 
> Since I'm new to this forum, are there any threads here that deal with tips on how to make the most of the confrontation? If she does agree to go to MC before I confront, is it a good idea to confront while we're at the therapist, or is that a generally bad idea?


I would ask her right at the MC office, another witness to be sure she doesn't say you attacked her.

OP, this is something you will ask yourself ever time you have sex with your wife. "Did I get as good as OM got?"

See if you can get free or initial consult from attorney tomorrow. Don't know how you can look at her with that thought echoing in your head.

Just found this thread started on TAM - this is what you will be dealing with

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-cope-feeling-you-lost-something-special.html


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## Malaise

Wherever/whenever you plan to do it make sure you have all of the texts printed out as evidence she can't refute.


----------



## Thor

Marc878 said:


> IMO you get your **** together and go front and center.
> 
> Cut out the passive agressive Mr Nice Guy approach.
> 
> Only a weak guy plays games and tiptoes through or around the tulips.



Agreed 100%. Especially since OP sounds like he is a Nice Guy. Leading by being Nice, and then hoping or expecting she will do the same is nothing but delusional Nice Guy covert contract and passive aggressive.

Telling her you want open access to all electronics is fine. But don't offer it with the hopes she will get the idea and hand over her passwords. Don't reveal secrets with the hope she'll feel guilty enough to reveal hers.

For some men and some women this approach might work. For the Nice Guy it just feeds into his dysfunctional thought processes. If she is a CSA victim (or if she isn't), and she has a lifelong rule set that it is ok to keep big secrets, and if she's learned that secrets help her get what she wants, she isn't going to change her way of thinking just because he admits to something.


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## Thor

I would have a VAR running during the confrontation. You will forget things, your head will be spinning and you'll miss things. Then later you'll start wondering what exact words did she use, or did you hear what you thought you did.

You can confront one of two ways. Understand that cheaters generally will deny and lie. They will only admit to what they think you already know. They will try to minimize.

For example if you say you read the message about them having sex, she will say they only did it the one time and she felt terrible about it afterwards.

So, you can either do shock and awe, or you can take the approach you already know enough.

Shock and awe would be handing her a printout of some of the messages. It could include handing her divorce papers. Ideally you would provide irrefutable and overwhelming evidence. She can't say they only kissed. She can't say it was only a one time drunken mistake at a party.

The other approach requires you to be rock solid confident. You tell her you know she went outside of the relationship in the past for sex and excitement. You say that you can only stay in the relationship if she reveals everything fully and without delay. You don't tell her what you know, just that you do know. The problem here is if she tries to stall. Cheaters try to minimize the damage, so they calculate how much they think you know so that they can only admit to that much. The power play here for you if she starts delaying is to hand her divorce papers.

The problem you have is that you don't know what else is out there. If you say the name of this man she will figure that is all you know about. So she won't confess other affairs. This problem exists with either approach, btw. Requiring her to take a polygraph is going to be your only way to be certain she has confessed everything, unless she voluntarily confesses other affairs or betrayals. If she is a snotty mess groveling at your feet begging for forgiveness, and she confesses multiple affairs, I would be inclined to believe she is giving the full truth. But other than that I think you need to consider a polygraph if you are to get reasonable certainty this is the only affair.

The other view would be if she really is remorseful and she really works hard at R, then other unknown affairs are perhaps irrelevant. In that case a polygraph wouldn't be needed. Many would have this philosophy, but I would want to know everything.

When you confront, you need to be able to monitor whether she texts or calls anybody. This is a common response from fear, where the cheater contacts people to coordinate stories. You need to be able to determine who she calls, texts, and emails in the few days immediately after the confrontation.

I personally like the idea of confrontation in MC, but it isn't necessary unless you think she'll go off the rails. You should consider telling the therapist ahead of time so they are prepared.

Never reveal your source of information. Cheaters want to know how you found out so they can hide it better.


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## SAMHAIN

Thanks for the tips guys. I already have a high end VAR that I use to record concerts, so I will have no issue recording. You brought up a good point about her going off the rails if I confront in MC. She does seem to freak out when she's under stress. I think I will have D papers ready when I confront, I'm sure she sees me as a "nice guy" without really knowing fully what it means in the context of our relationship, so the D papers will let her know this is for real.


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## lifeistooshort

Apologies if this has already been addressed, but did she get any type of counseling for the abortion?

Is there any chance she regrets it or blames you for it?


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## SAMHAIN

lifeistooshort said:


> Apologies if this has already been addressed, but did she get any type of counseling for the abortion?
> 
> Is there any chance she regrets it or blames you for it?


Never had any counseling for it. We haven't ever told anybody. They few times we've talked about it, she seems mildly sad in kind of a "what if?" way. But because of her issues with her parents (she is an only child and they've always been a bit overbearing), she isn't as open with me about her feelings as I'd like so it's possible she does blame me.


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## sokillme

Don't give away what you know just tell her you know and see how far she lies with it. Then slowly reveal and see how long she keeps trying to lie. It will give you a good sense of how hard R is going to be. If she has been feeling guilty for instance she may be relieved and tell you all. That would be a good sign. 

Tell her she has one chance to tell you the whole truth and from that you will judge what you do next. Put the divorce papers on the table but don't say anything about them just let her see them, but don't show her the text you have until you need to.


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## SunCMars

SAMHAIN said:


> Thanks guys, you've given me lots to think about. I'm glad I came here before confronting doing something stupid. What you guys are saying makes sense. I will look into D before I take the next step. My situation is a bit tricky at the moment though. Since our business failed a year ago, I've been out of work and just doing things here and there to make a few extra bucks (selling things on eBay, etc..). My wife is the one bringing in a steady pay check. It would probably be in my best interest to find a job, so I can at least afford to talk to a D lawyer, lol. That means it will be probably months before I confront. While that will give me time to gather more information, it will be hell. It's hard to look at her without something popping into my mind. But I will do what has to be done. It will also give me time to work on myself. I wanted to join a gym for myself anyway (I'm over weight, so I really don't want to die early), but this is just that much more motivation to improve myself.
> 
> While I'm waiting to get "my ducks in a row", should I try and push her into therapy, either MC or IC? While I had said things were better after we had our "talks" a few days ago, we had an upsetting "fight" last night and I feel we are back to square one. Would counseling help or hurt things before confrontation? Or should I just live with the status quo for the next few months until my situation improves?


Yes, get a job....

Now, saying that it may be 'months' before you say anything?

It has been years and years since 'this' situation happened. A few more months, means a few more months of digging and playing 'serious' detective.
Plus, the months ahead will allow this painful 'roiling sediment' to settle out, drift down to form silt, then sludge. At the bottom of your marital aquarium.

Later, when you clean out the sludge, you can then determine if she is a keeper, or that she should be tossed out with the your 'dear, baby water'.

Do not let the Anxious Nellie's and the Grumpy Gus's tell you to confront now. To hammer her, dead.
While many here are not patient, you can be. You have time. 

In the meantime it will give you some perspective on your marriage, your love for her, her 'now' love for you. 
If she has remained faithful 'after' this terrible incident, what are you going to do?

I agree, divorce papers should be present when you finally expose your findings.

*No, dispense with telling her to go to counseling. Do not be confrontational. If you are nasty in the interim period, she will be glad to admit this.*

*She will be glad to get 'rid of you'!* 

Go the other route, be sweet and supportive. So when you spring the truth on her, it will hurt the maximum. And she will be caught barefoot, flat footed.


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## Taxman

I agree with SunCMars:
DO NOT GIVE AWAY YOUR HAND. As in poker, never let your face divulge what is in your hand. Until you decide that the time is right to both confront, and to release information, please be the smiliest, most pleasant, most loving husband on the face of the earth. You need this to be a complete and utter shock. Last time I had a confrontation in my office, it followed a similar script. The wife had known for some time that he had a long term affair. He had actually gotten quite complacent in the cover up. Not a good thing, he had been followed, she had enlisted an army of girlfriends to keep tabs. She had documented all of their meetings and all of their texts. I had no idea what was about to happen. They started giving me their slips for their tax returns, then she produced a bill from a local PI firm. She asked if it was deductible to remove a cancer from her marriage. It took him a second or two to wipe the smile from his face, and then fear took hold. The papers coming out of her pile were damning to say the least. The PI bill came to about $2500 but painted the picture. The OBS had been called, from my reception area when the husband visited the bathroom. She simply told the OBS that she had left everything in an email to him. He was blowing up her phone while we were in the meeting. I could see it vibrate, but she was not answering until the time was right. She basically gave it to him in front of me, inclusive of divorce papers. He left pretty much defeated. She answered the OBS after her husband had left the office. The idiot tried calling his AP from the hallway outside my office. The OBS intercepted the call. We could hear the OW screaming and crying on the other end. I said that I discourage that in my office, as I have a lot of breakables.

SAMHAIN, pick the time carefully. She has to be lulled into a false sense of security. When you expose, the unexpected nature of the exposure will likely spur a ton of confession. DO NOT tell how you know, just that you know. Provide just enough evidence and then throw divorce papers at her. That will get whatever you want fairly quickly. Do not give her enough time to think, that produced TT. You want the truth, blindside her on this.


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## naiveonedave

@SAMHAIN - Kay doesn't say you can prevent someone cheating on you, only you can do things to lower the risk. IMO, he is somewhat off base there, depending on the W (is she BPD or a messed up CSA survivor, there is little you can do). The main point of his book is to be the best man you can be for your W (or if she isn't the one - cheater or other reason), you will be that man for the next one.

Sorry you are here. Listen to the folks who have been through this. Lawyer up, expose when the time is right, follow the advice as best you can.


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## Idyit

naiveonedave said:


> @SAMHAIN - Kay doesn't say you can prevent someone cheating on you, only you can do things to lower the risk. IMO, he is somewhat off base there, depending on the W *(is she BPD or a messed up CSA survivor, there is little you can do*). The main point of his book is to be the best man you can be for your W (or if she isn't the one - cheater or other reason), you will be that man for the next one.
> 
> Sorry you are here. Listen to the folks who have been through this. Lawyer up, expose when the time is right, follow the advice as best you can.


Some of us are really good at spotting a cheater, their BS and how to move forward once infidelity has been uncovered. The bold is what I've been holding back comment on. As a secondary victim to CSA and BPD a lot of the behaviors of your wife make me wonder if there's more than CSA to deal with. If you're intent on uncovering what you're dealing with regarding infidelity it may be worth a look at BPD too. Then again, maybe not. The truth is you will most likely never know the truth. 

You also may not want to expose yourself to all of her truth. Once I knew my wife was BPD (professionally diagnosed, not by me) I should have lined up the ducks, knocked them down and got the hell out. A bit of pity, some small hope and still too much "nice guy" kept me around to uncover way more than was healthy for me to know. 1) Financial infidelity 2) 20+ years of emotional and sexual infidelity 3) Finding out one (or more?) of my children may not be mine. And I'm certain there is more I cant verify.

It's self flagellating that has served me in no way. I should have gotten out when I knew 'enough' and would advise you to do the same. 

And stop reading Athol Kay. Any advice he gives is null when dealing with CSA (BPD?). Do read No More Mr Nice Guy. It's much more pertinent and focuses on where you are, now. Another decent read when working on you is "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a ****" by Mark Manson. I wish you well friend.


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## Thor

Idyit said:


> It's self flagellating that has served me in no way. I should have gotten out when I knew 'enough' and would advise you to do the same.


Yes, typical response. Like me, you cared about your W and you hated how she had been harmed. And, for me, being a Nice Guy led me to want to ride to her rescue.

I wish I'd gotten out a lot earlier. I lost over 30 years of my life to something nobody had any ability to change other than her, and she was doing everything possible to avoid facing her issues.


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## Idyit

Thor said:


> Yes, typical response. Like me, you cared about your W and you hated how she had been harmed. And, for me, being a Nice Guy led me to want to ride to her rescue.
> 
> I wish I'd gotten out a lot earlier. I lost over 30 years of my life to something *nobody had any ability to change other than her, and she was doing everything possible to avoid facing her issues*.


Bolded QFT. This is what I wrestled with for a time. The diagnosis is less than a year out for us, but even after I had trouble with, "what kind of POS leaves his wife with this sort of problem?". One who has opened their eyes to the truth you stated.


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## SAMHAIN

I've just been reading about BPD. I never really knew what it was. Quite eye opening for me


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## farsidejunky

@Uptown


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## badmemory

SAMHAIN said:


> If she does agree to go to MC before I confront, is it a good idea to confront while we're at the therapist, or is that a generally bad idea?


Just my 2 cents, but I think MC right now is a bad idea. To what end? MC is for working out marital issues. This isn't a marital issue, it's a cheating issue. And that's changes everything. That should cause marital issues to be put aside until the cheating issue is resolved. You don't need a marriage counselor to tell you what to do or potentially obfuscate the gravity of what your wife did. You know what she did and you know what you should do. She has to demonstrate genuine remorse and accept consequences before you will even consider R. 

If she does that, if she earns her second chance and if you decide to attempt R; *then* you can look into MC as you attempt to rebuild your marriage. But that's for weeks or months down the road, if ever. Right now IC would be the better answer for both of you. For her, to understand why she cheated and for you, to help you cope with your grief.


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## Sports Fan

For now i would keep quiet and not tip your hand. The fact that she is addicted to her phone is not good and would indicate she is carrying on being decietful to this day with other people. Does she have a pin on her phone that you do not know the code?

I would immediately install a VAR in her vehicle. Additionally if you know her Apple ID i would install Webwatcher Mobile. Monitor for 2- 3 weeks and see if there is any more proof of ongoing infedelity. I would normally say once you have solid evidence confront straight away but given that you have been decieved for years it is important to find out the true extent of the situation and what she is up to today. When you eventually confront you have some very tough decisions to make. I guess this will depend a lot on what eventuates in the current process. When you do confront she needs to lose all contact with any male friends in her life block them on social media and she must experience real consequences for her actions. She will act sorry but remember she is not sorry as she has been decietful for 9 years without remorse until the day she is exposed.


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## SunCMars

farsidejunky said:


> @Uptown



To do ta do!


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## Uptown

SAMHAIN said:


> I've just been reading about BPD. I never really knew what it was. Quite eye opening for me


Samhain, well, anything is possible. Perhaps your W does have strong BPD traits. That is NOT what you're describing here, however. For one thing, you are not describing an emotionally unstable woman. Moreover, the vast majority of folks cheating on their spouses do not exhibit strong BPD traits.



> She was 14... She didn’t describe it as rape, but... she agreed [that it was.]


Because BPDers typically have the emotional development of a four year old, the current view of the psychiatric community is that full-blown BPD likely develops before age five. This is why a BPDer has a weak unstable sense of identity and lacks the ability to regulate her own emotions. Hence, even if the alleged "rape" had resulted in PTSD, there is no reason to believe it could create BPD.



> She’s said she doesn’t like to be “touched” and has always felt that way since a child.... I suspect there may have been some molestation at some point


Unlike the "rape" at age 14, sexual abuse in early childhood is fairly strongly associated with BPD, i.e., it greatly raises the child's risk of developing BPD. See BPD and Childhood Sexual Abuse and the study, Child Sex Abuse and BPD. Also see Sexual Abuse and Psychiatric Disorders and the study, Psychological Consequences of Sexual Abuse. 

There are three reasons, however, why this statistical association falls far short of indicating that your W suffers from BPD. One reason is that she has never said anything to confirm your suspicion that she was molested in childhood. A second reason is that, even if she had been molested, most children who are sexually abused in childhood do not develop BPD. 

A third reason, as noted above, is that you are not describing a strong pattern of BPD symptoms. But, of course, you may have seen many strong symptoms you haven't mentioned here. I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. 

I suspect you will find that most do not sound characteristic of your W's behavior over the past 25 years. Yet, if I'm mistaken about that, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to join @*Farside* and other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Samhain.


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## Herschel

I agree it doesn’t sound like BPD. Sounds more like emotional detachment. She was telling you for years she was broken. Believe her. This guy wasn’t her first run at the rodeo.


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## SAMHAIN

While it's true that she may or may not have BPD, all of the reading I've been doing today points to that direction. Especially the "quiet" or "waif" type. It's hard to articulate in my few posts here to describe the whole 25 year relationship. But as was reading about BPD, light bulbs started to go off. I even used to tell her that I felt like I had to walk on eggshells around her because she would frequently get mad at me for no reason or minor things. She's always been very attached to me, and would get upset if I went out with my friends without her. She never cut herself, but when she used to get really upset, she would dig her finger nails into her arms or inner thigh until they bled. It was especially bad when we were younger and she thought I was gonna leave her for a co-worker. I always though there were some issue, I just didn't have any idea what it was. If I'd ever suggest therapy, that would set her off. She told me a few months ago that she thinks her Mom is BPD, and I think that also makes sense. I've experienced my mother in laws drastic mood swings, and my father in law is a broken man. Seems like he is unhappy and does what he can to not rock the boat. Since she is an only child, that fact that my wife moved out of state has been very hard on her mother. Her mother also spends money like there's no tomorrow and doesn't seem to be able to stop. 

Now, my wife has gotten better through out the years, it's not as intense as when she was younger, but she still feels she has little self worth and frequently tells me that I'm gonna leave her because she is "broken" (her words). We've also both gone through some serious addiction issues, and I'm not sure she's fully broken free. I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting. 

Like I said, it may not be BPD, but it would make sense. She also suffers from depression and anxiety, which I've read goes hand in hand with BPD. I would like for her to start IC before we try MC, but in the quick research I've done I don't see how we can afford it anytime soon with our current financial situation. I hope we can find a way for her to get diagnosed and start treatment at the very least. 

Anyway, whatever happens I'm glad I found this forum before I did anything rash when I discovered the old affair. I have lots to contemplate and whatever happens, it sounds like we both have a difficult road ahead.


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## sokillme

I'm sorry man BPD is a hard thing.


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## Chaparral

I have no idea to handle the BPD issue but Uptown has been on many threads and g en a ton of insight.

Since your funds are limited you might want to see if you can download a divorce packet for your state. I don’t know if it costs anything but many states do not require lawyers to divorce by it’s a good idea to run whatever you come up with by one. Some states you can pick up a divorce packet at the courthouse.
I’m not recommending you divorce your wife. However, having the papers filled out can be a great bargaining tool.

Also I don’t recall if you have kids or not. Do you?

Also, regarding BPD, it’s often pointed out most people display some of the symptoms some times. So beware of that. So far what you have described could easily just be her upbringing and CSA. That’s bad enough. Self esteem issues show up very often here too as does anxiety and depression. Adultery seems to be self medication to troubled people.


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## colingrant

I've read your posts but not the others, but i wanted to make a quick comment or two since you've not approached her yet.

1) With all due respect to her personality and propensity to get angry, DO NOT subordinate your anger and trauma because of her's. Your world has changed as you found your trusted life partner isn't who you thought she was and may never be that person again, regardless of the sincerity of her restoring your faith in her and the deeds she performs to do so. This is about YOU, not her and her un-diagnosed bipolar-ism. Trying to identify the reasoning behind her actions could put you in a position to offering excuses for her behavior, which of course you do not want to do. Allow the professionals (IC) to conclude this stuff. You just seek to uncover all that you can so that you can make a solid decision about who she is and whether she is worthy of being in your life moving forward. This is YOUR decision, not hers. 

2) Do not tell her you want to reconcile even if you do, as reconciling is a gift that must be earned through her acknowledging her misdeeds and them being the cause of your pain and anguish. If she's unafraid of losing you then she'll never fully appreciate you and she'll not fully understand and respect the gift of reconciling that you so graciously gave to her if in fact this is the case. Her complete acknowledgement and ownership of her choice must occur first and foremost. 

3) Your posture should be "in limbo" until she receives IC to unearth her past and unravel why she did what she did. She should not get comfortable and believe you're going to be with her forever. That should be in question and she should be in discomfort not knowing what the future holds. If she loves you and wishes to remain with you then she should be terrified at the thought that you haven't even uttered the words reconciliation. You should always convey the fact that your future as a couple is in doubt, otherwise her approach to meeting conditions for your happiness may not be important enough to her. Remember, it's about you, not her at this point. Your worlds needs to be restored to some degree of safety and normalcy. It's not your fault it's turned upside. 

4) The decision to reconcile should hinge on some of what's below 

a. First and foremost whether she's convincingly showing remorse over a period of time, not a week or two. You have to see it for weeks as it should be a new normal for her. Remorse is easy to recognize as it is all action and not words. 
b. If she's willing to meet ALL of your conditions for moving forward with her. Questions concerning her past history. Is she currently in an affair and whether she's had other relations during your marriage. What else do you not know? She should be LEADING the way to get answers to these questions and seeking your approval of them. It's all about your return to emotional health and confidence for her to remain as your wife. You MUST have all information in your hands to make a decision about your future. Your future first and the future of both of you second. You must also determine what has to change TODAY that makes you feel safe in the relationship. Also, who's the AP. She should be willing to reveal everything you want to know with ease. If not, she's not meeting your conditions which MUST be met for you to CONSIDER reconciling. She needs to offer details in a written timeline regardless how painful it is for her. Remember, you're the one in pain and seeking relief. 
c. IC for her before MC. She needs to get to the why's first and you must know the why's before you can make a decision to reconcile. Another way to put it is you have to know who the hell you're reconciling with, as the person you thought she was is no longer that person. 

5. Do not "nice" her back. Not only will it not work, but you'll never control your own life and getting your own needs met following discovery, as you will be too busy filling hers.


----------



## Uptown

SAMHAIN said:


> She would frequently get mad at me for no reason or minor things.... would get upset if I went out with my friends without her.... would dig her finger nails into her arms or inner thigh until they bled.... she thought I was gonna leave her for a co-worker.... has little self worth and frequently tells me that I'm gonna leave her.


Samhain, yes, those behaviors are red flags for BPD behavior. Yet, except for her fear of abandonment, none of them were mentioned earlier in your thread. Moreover, they are hard to reconcile with your previous statement that
_"She always appeared to be happy being with me, always told me how lucky she was to be with me and couldn't imagine life without me. Our life together was good, except for the lack of sex."_ (Post #60.)​If you had been living with a woman exhibiting strong BPD traits for 25 years, you would have experienced a world of abusive, terrible problems going far beyond the lack of sex. A BPDer would also be exhibiting strong instability and often would be flipping back and forth between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing or hating you).

I therefore suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. I suggest you ask him about social anxiety, which has a fairly strong association with the dislike of being touched. 

Moreover, if this dislike of being touched is very strong, it is called "Haphephobia." It is a phobia that involves the fear of touching or of being touched. It is often associated with a fear of sexual assault. By the way, have you ever considered the possibility that your W's cheating involved months of "sexting" through texting without any actual physical contact with the OM?



> While it's true that she may or may not have BPD, all of the reading I've been doing today points to that direction. Especially the "quiet" or "waif" type.


Well, being human means that she does exhibit BPD traits. It is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, cold withdrawal, and emotional instability.

If you would like to discuss BPD traits further, Samhain, it would be helpful if you would tell us which of the 18 BPD Warning Signs have been strong and persistent for 25 years -- and which do not seem to apply at all.


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## Chaparral

Uptown said:


> Samhain, yes, those behaviors are red flags for BPD behavior. Yet, except for her fear of abandonment, none of them were mentioned earlier in your thread. Moreover, they are hard to reconcile with your previous statement that
> _"She always appeared to be happy being with me, always told me how lucky she was to be with me and couldn't imagine life without me. Our life together was good, except for the lack of sex."_ (Post #60.)​If you had been living with a woman exhibiting strong BPD traits for 25 years, you would have experienced a world of abusive, terrible problems going far beyond the lack of sex. A BPDer would also be exhibiting strong instability and often would be flipping back and forth between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing or hating you).
> 
> I therefore suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. I suggest you ask him about social anxiety, which has a fairly strong association with the dislike of being touched.
> 
> Moreover, if this dislike of being touched is very strong, it is called "Haphephobia." It is a phobia that involves the fear of touching or of being touched. It is often associated with a fear of sexual assault. By the way, have you ever considered the possibility that your W's cheating involved months of "sexting" through texting without any actual physical contact with the OM?
> 
> Well, being human means that she does exhibit BPD traits. It is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.
> 
> Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," verbal abuse, cold withdrawal, and emotional instability.
> 
> If you would like to discuss BPD traits further, Samhain, it would be helpful if you would tell us which of the 18 BPD Warning Signs have been strong and persistent for 25 years -- and which do not seem to apply at all.


Can a person that is BPD be that way with only one person or simply hide it from every one else?


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## SunCMars

Forgive me, I have to say this..

Where the "SamHain" are you?

OK, continue to march. :smile2:

...................................................................................................


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## michzz

oldshirt said:


> It's like France hoping Hitler plays nice.





TRy said:


> Your statement “It’s like France hoping Hitler plays nice” is on the money. I will be stealing this line from you.


I will be ripping it off too.

When a wife cheats and you attempt to get them to "return" to what they used to be it, it is a useless and pointless effort.

For one, your impression of your wife is what you want her to be, not who she really is.

So any reconciliation with her is about connecting with who she really is.

Who she really is, is someone willing to cheat for years and hide it.

Cry-cry-cry when caught.

How attractive is that?

Not very.


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## Thor

SAMHAIN said:


> Like I said, it may not be BPD, but it would make sense. She also suffers from depression and anxiety, which I've read goes hand in hand with BPD.


When I first heard of BPD it was in the early days of the internet, so it wasn't so easy to research. From what I read, it seemed BPD was sort of correct in terms of my wife's behavior. BPD-lite-ish in some ways, but not at all in others.

When the first baby was born she really went off the rails. Talk about walking on eggshells! I knew that every single day she was going to have some kind of rage or mini-rage at me. I never knew what it was going to trigger it, but I knew it was going to happen. I remember one time it was because I mixed the baby formula by first putting the water in the bottle and then adding the concentrate, but she wanted me to put the concentrate in first. Every. Single. Day.

Years later I found out about her CSA. I read numerous books, read the internet, went to several CSA forums. Her behaviors were all classic CSA. I believe her abuse events were at about age 8 to age 10, not 5 or younger.

There is a lot of overlap between BPD and generic CSA, but they are different. BPD is several orders of magnitude crazier! Anxiety and depression also seem to be common with CSA. Fear of abandonment is central to CSA. Feeling damaged or broken, and worrying that people will find out about it.

If you think your W is truly BPD, then I would consider her dangerous. You would need to extricate yourself carefully. Aside from that, I think it is counterproductive to try to diagnose her. It is helpful to try to understand her, but it can become a distraction which keeps you from taking action. Either she is an acceptable spouse or she is not. Either she is doing the work you need for R or she is not.

Don't get sidetracked trying to figure out if she's BPD, CSA, or whatever.


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## Cromer

I am sorry that you are dealing with this situation. It's like what I went through recently. I had been in a long marriage but the last half of it was sexless (wife). Otherwise, we had a great relationship and did everything together, to include raising three great kids (adults now). We were having a lot of fun in retirement. Except for the lack of sex. 

The no sex issue finally came to a boil and I filed for divorce, it was a total surprise to her. That's when the whole thing about the old affair came out and how sorry she was for betraying me, she is very happy and wants to work it out, shouldn't have let that ruin our sex life, etc. She thought it was cheating on OM by having sex with me, and even after he broke it off, it became a habit in her mind to not want sex with me, go figure. She had an affair when I was deployed about 12 years ago, broke it off when I got back, couldn't stop thinking about OM and restarted when I deployed again. He broke it off for good.

I'm in my mid-50's. I miss my XW's company, a lot. We had been together our entire adult lives. But I couldn't live the status quo any longer and BOOM! Look what was underneath the hood. If it has been an affair that far in the past, but our marriage was now normal and healthy sexually, I would have probably worked through it. But the fact that I went over 11 years with no sex because of her boyfriend? No way I forgive that.

The point of the story is if that long ago affair is still affecting your marriage today, you have a tough decision to make. I got the H$!! out and don't regret it. Life is good and the sea is teaming with life.


----------



## Cromer

I am sorry that you are dealing with this situation, but it resembles what I went through recently. I had been in a long marriage but the last half of it was sexless (wife). Otherwise, we had a great relationship and did everything together, to include raising three great kids (adults now). We were having a lot of fun in retirement. Except for the lack of sex. 

The no sex issue finally came to a boil and I filed for divorce, it was a total surprise to her. That's when the whole thing about the old affair came out (she thought I knew) and how sorry she was for betraying me, how she is very happy and wants to work it out, it was a mistake to let her affair ruin our sex life, etc. She thought it was cheating on OM by having sex with me, and even after he broke it off, it became a habit in her mind to not want sex with me, go figure. She had an affair when I was deployed about 12 years ago, broke it off when I got back, couldn't stop thinking about OM and restarted when I deployed again. He broke it off for good.

I'm in my mid-50's. I miss my XW's company, a lot. We had been together our entire adult lives. But I couldn't live the status quo any longer and BOOM! Look what was underneath the hood. If it had been an affair that far in the past, but our marriage was now normal and healthy sexually, I would have probably worked through it. But the fact that I went over 11 years with no sex because of her boyfriend? No way I forgive that.

The point of the story is if that long ago affair is still affecting your marriage today, you have a tough decision to make. I got the H$!! out and don't regret it. Life is good and the sea is teaming with life my friend.


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## SentHereForAReason

Cromer said:


> I am sorry that you are dealing with this situation. It's like what I went through recently. I had been in a long marriage but the last half of it was sexless (wife). Otherwise, we had a great relationship and did everything together, to include raising three great kids (adults now). We were having a lot of fun in retirement. Except for the lack of sex.
> 
> The no sex issue finally came to a boil and I filed for divorce, it was a total surprise to her. That's when the whole thing about the old affair came out and how sorry she was for betraying me, she is very happy and wants to work it out, shouldn't have let that ruin our sex life, etc. She thought it was cheating on OM by having sex with me, and even after he broke it off, it became a habit in her mind to not want sex with me, go figure. She had an affair when I was deployed about 12 years ago, broke it off when I got back, couldn't stop thinking about OM and restarted when I deployed again. He broke it off for good.
> 
> I'm in my mid-50's. I miss my XW's company, a lot. We had been together our entire adult lives. But I couldn't live the status quo any longer and BOOM! Look what was underneath the hood. If it has been an affair that far in the past, but our marriage was now normal and healthy sexually, I would have probably worked through it. But the fact that I went over 11 years with no sex because of her boyfriend? No way I forgive that.
> 
> The point of the story is if that long ago affair is still affecting your marriage today, you have a tough decision to make. I got the H$!! out and don't regret it. Life is good and the sea is teaming with life.


Whoa, 11 years of no sex or very little sex? We would go a couple of months in between. I always wondered how someone so active before we met and adventurous in our first few years of dating and even the marriage could just go so cold. Led myself to believe she just changed but she didn't she just was addicted to the new stages of a relationship and needed that approval for self validation.


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## Steve1000

SAMHAIN said:


> My main thing now I think is that I want to confront properly so I have the best possible chance of uncovering if there is anyone else I don't already know about. I'm 99% sure there hasn't been anybody else since the guy I already know about, based on the digging I've been doing and based on our life situation during that time frame. What I'm worried about is the time frame before this started. It's difficult to find digital records to snoop when you're talking the time before smart phones 15 years ago or longer.
> 
> I do no for sure now that she had sex with the OM based on the text messages I discovered. I sat down today and painfully read them all. I had gotten through most of them and I was starting to feel like it might just be a sexting/fantasy type thing for her (which is still inexcusable, but not as bad as a PA. To me at least), then the bomb dropped. There was a text from him that said: "U know I haven't even jerked off since we f**ked. That's how good u did. " Reading that was almost like a second DDay for me.
> 
> Since I'm new to this forum, are there any threads here that deal with tips on how to make the most of the confrontation? If she does agree to go to MC before I confront, is it a good idea to confront while we're at the therapist, or is that a generally bad idea?


I just came across your thread today after seeing that you hadn't read most of the messages yet (on page 2), I was going to caution you about reading them. Unfortunately, you will always remember the details of what you have read. I found similar messages more than four years ago and still everyday recall one or two of the details. 

My situation is admittedly easier to handle than yours because my at the time girlfriend cheated during the first six months of our relationship that was long-distance at the time. For you, you had already been living with her for many years. I'm sorry to tell you that the misery for you is still in its early stages and prepare yourself for it to get worse before it gets better. The decision to reconcile or divorce is not important for the next few months. Give yourself plenty of time to come to terms with this new reality.


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## Uptown

Chaparral said:


> Can a person that is BPD be that way with only one person or simply hide it from every one else?


@*Chap*, studies suggest that 2/3 to 3/4 of BPDers (i.e., people exhibiting strong traits of the lifetime disorder) are high functioning people whose BPD traits usually show strongly only when a casual friend or acquaintance draws very close to form a very close relationship with them. 

These HF BPDers generally get along fine with casual friends, business associates, and strangers. None of those people pose a threat to the BPDer's fear of abandonment because there is no close relationship to be abandoned. And none of them pose a threat to the BPDer's fear of engulfment because there is no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. 

This is why it is common for HF BPDers to be kind and considerate all day long to strangers -- e.g., working as doctors, teachers, and therapists -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love them. And this is why the casual friends and business associates usually are totally unaware of the abuse going on at home to the BPDer's partner.

As to "hiding it from everyone else," HF BPDers usually have nothing to hide from the people outside the home. Because those casual friends and colleagues don't trigger the BPDer's two fears, she does not experience any rage that needs to be hidden at work. Although the BPDer does experience frequent rage at home, she usually makes no attempt to hide it because she is absolutely convinced that her loved one has hurt her and is the source of her pain.


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## TAMAT

Cromer,

Wow thanks for posting, you wrote a very good summary of the effects of a rugswept or hidden affair. 

* That's when the whole thing about the old affair came out (she thought I knew) and how sorry she was for betraying me, how she is very happy and wants to work it out, it was a mistake to let her affair ruin our sex life, etc. She thought it was cheating on OM by having sex with me, and even after he broke it off, it became a habit in her mind to not want sex with me, go figure.*

That's what happened with my W, I was able to recover the marriage in almost every aspect except sex, that was something she gave away and somehow turned off from me completely. My W also got heavily involved in Church work as some sort of atonement, she also said she would have understood if I had had an affair and she wouldn't blame me, similar to what you wrote about your W. 

*The point of the story is if that long ago affair is still affecting your marriage today, you have a tough decision to make.*

I think many of the men who post here believe that their W had an affair because their marriage was bad, when in fact their marriage is bad because their W had an affair, and since they cannot force their Ws to deal with the affair their marriage will continue badly until one of them dies. 

Tamat


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## bandit.45

You need to check in on your old thread Cromer, and give us an update. 

Glad you came back!


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## manfromlamancha

Cromer said:


> I am sorry that you are dealing with this situation, but it resembles what I went through recently. I had been in a long marriage but the last half of it was sexless (wife). Otherwise, we had a great relationship and did everything together, to include raising three great kids (adults now). We were having a lot of fun in retirement. Except for the lack of sex.
> 
> The no sex issue finally came to a boil and I filed for divorce, it was a total surprise to her. That's when the whole thing about the old affair came out (she thought I knew) and how sorry she was for betraying me, how she is very happy and wants to work it out, it was a mistake to let her affair ruin our sex life, etc. She thought it was cheating on OM by having sex with me, and even after he broke it off, it became a habit in her mind to not want sex with me, go figure. She had an affair when I was deployed about 12 years ago, broke it off when I got back, couldn't stop thinking about OM and restarted when I deployed again. He broke it off for good.
> 
> I'm in my mid-50's. I miss my XW's company, a lot. We had been together our entire adult lives. But I couldn't live the status quo any longer and BOOM! Look what was underneath the hood. If it had been an affair that far in the past, but our marriage was now normal and healthy sexually, I would have probably worked through it. But the fact that I went over 11 years with no sex because of her boyfriend? No way I forgive that.
> 
> The point of the story is if that long ago affair is still affecting your marriage today, you have a tough decision to make. I got the H$!! out and don't regret it. Life is good and the sea is teaming with life my friend.


Cromer, you closed your last thread without this very important bit of information - it would have been very educational to many on that thread that walked away with the wrong idea - that you were in fact abandoning your wife etc.

Wow!


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## GusPolinski

Cromer said:


> I am sorry that you are dealing with this situation. It's like what I went through recently. I had been in a long marriage but the last half of it was sexless (wife). Otherwise, we had a great relationship and did everything together, to include raising three great kids (adults now). We were having a lot of fun in retirement. Except for the lack of sex.
> 
> The no sex issue finally came to a boil and I filed for divorce, it was a total surprise to her. That's when the whole thing about the old affair came out and how sorry she was for betraying me, she is very happy and wants to work it out, shouldn't have let that ruin our sex life, etc. She thought it was cheating on OM by having sex with me, and even after he broke it off, it became a habit in her mind to not want sex with me, go figure. She had an affair when I was deployed about 12 years ago, broke it off when I got back, couldn't stop thinking about OM and restarted when I deployed again. He broke it off for good.
> 
> I'm in my mid-50's. I miss my XW's company, a lot. We had been together our entire adult lives. But I couldn't live the status quo any longer and BOOM! Look what was underneath the hood. If it has been an affair that far in the past, but our marriage was now normal and healthy sexually, I would have probably worked through it. But the fact that I went over 11 years with no sex because of her boyfriend? No way I forgive that.
> 
> The point of the story is if that long ago affair is still affecting your marriage today, you have a tough decision to make. I got the H$!! out and don't regret it. Life is good and the sea is teaming with life.


Damn dude.

Hope you exposed the POS to his wife. (Assuming he’s married, of course.)

Also, @bandit.45 called it.


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## Sparta

Cromer Wow buddy unbelievable how some people can just be so selfish self absorbed POS. And had the nerve to say well we could work through this. I didn’t make love to you for 11 years because I felt I was cheating on my boyfriend but the man (my husband) that I took Vows with God and other people bear witness to this event called “Oh yeah my marriage” Us WW have no problem classifying our husbands as Plan B’s Yep our boyfriends and any other man definitely come way before any of our husbands do.


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## harrybrown

Do not do the pick me dance.

she is still in contact with someone if she is guarding her phone.

Have you looked at the bill? 

you do need to expose to the OM's current wife.l

Expose and stop her cheating. Go look at her current phone.


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## SAMHAIN

harrybrown said:


> Do not do the pick me dance.
> 
> she is still in contact with someone if she is guarding her phone.
> 
> Have you looked at the bill?
> 
> you do need to expose to the OM's current wife.l
> 
> Expose and stop her cheating. Go look at her current phone.


I don't know if you have read the whole thread, but I have determined she is not currently cheating and it doesn't appear she has since it ended with the OM 8-9 years ago. She isn't really guarding her phone, I just said she is on it all the time. I've been able to look over her shoulder, and she isn't hiding or doing anything bad with it. She's just addicted to it. Browsing the web, looking at nonsense on Facebook, etc. I have been able to look through it a few times recently while she getting ready for work (she leaves it unattended on the couch, so not hiding anything). I found nothing alarming. So I have no need to do the "pick me dance" (not that would anyway). I did go through her entire Gmail account, as well as our phone bill usage for the last 2 years and I found nothing. 
@Uptown , I will go through your BPD checklist in more detail when I have some time. My W is off work the next few days, so I won't have much free time to be on this site, but I will be back and look forward to your thoughts once I can go into more detail regrading your list.


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## arbitrator

*Any confrontation is going to pretty much result in gaslighting, coverup-lying and fabrication!

Confronting first without the evidence is going to bring about a flat denial. Pulling the evidence out will either then improve her memory or simply evoke an unsympathetic response of "where did you get that?" Basically, her words and actions will tell you that not only is she a cheater of unheralded proportions, but that she is an unconscionable liar as well!

And what you have just uncovered may only be the proverbial tip of the iceberg dating from that point in time right on up until the current time!

In any event, make sure that a master copy of it is kept under lock and key, preferably in your lawyers office! By now, you should have already had an exploratory visit with a good family-law attorney about divorce, property division, and/or custodial rights!

And as a safeguard, it would certainly behoove you to have your MD check you out nine ways from Sunday for the presence of any latent STD's!

Be it as it is, I'd say that your old lady has some rather serious explaining to do!

Or in all probability, more futile attempts at further gaslighting and/or coverups!
*


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## wmn1

Lostinthought61 said:


> are you telling us that you are going to rug sweep this...whether it happen last year or 9 years ago it happen just the other day for you....you need to address this with her..you need to get answers, you need her side without telling her everything you know and you need to learn to man up and for god sakes stop taking blame for pushing her into the arms of another man...that is stupid thinking


I think the reason he may be headed to the rugsweep is because he said in his original post that had she wanted to experiment with bringing another guy home, he would have been ok with it. So I feel he may be more upset that it was behind his back than he was with the fact that she took on another man. For me, it would be bad either way.


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## Tatsuhiko

Wow, @Cromer, I remember your thread well. It got closed at some point, and we never heard an update about your situation. Her behavior with regard to intimacy was reason enough to split. I don't think any of us ever heard about the affair, which makes her behavior even more reprehensible. It would be great if you could reopen your thread or start a new one. I want updates about your great happiness and success in the coming years. It's coming--count on it.


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## VladDracul

SAMHAIN said:


> While it's true that she may or may not have BPD, all of the reading I've been doing today points to that direction.


I didn't realize BPD would make a wife quit putting out for her husband for 11 years an take up intermittently banging other guys. I appreciate the education. What I've gleaned from lots and lots of women is they start cutting off the sex valve when they lose romantic interest in their old man.


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## SAMHAIN

VladDracul said:


> I didn't realize BPD would make a wife quit putting out for her husband for 11 years an take up intermittently banging other guys. I appreciate the education. What I've gleaned from lots and lots of women is they start cutting off the sex valve when they lose romantic interest in their old man.


In my case, it wasn't so much that she just quit. Sex has always been an issue with us. I'm HD and I thought she was LD because of her past issues. I believed it was something we (or her) could work on. This is the reason I took so long to officially marry her. I look back know and regret a lot of choices I made (or didn't make). I should have been encouraging her to go to therapy since early on, because I did feel there was a deeper issue besides the fact that she "just wasn't into me". She was/is a beautiful woman (used to model as a teenager), and if she wasn't in love with me there would be no reason to stay. She could have had her pick of men. I wasn't her "meal ticket", we've never had a lot of money. But every time I gently pushed IC, she would get angry or upset, and it's easier for me to put my head in the sand. I admit I was weak, and should have insisted but that's in the past. All I can do know is set up the future to be the best for both of us, whatever that may be.


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## sokillme

You are not going to confront her are you? You are just going to pretend this didn't happen right?


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## SAMHAIN

sokillme said:


> You are not going to confront her are you? You are just going to pretend this didn't happen right?


Of course I'm going to confront. I think about it every hour of the day. It just keeps popping into my head. As discussed earlier, there is no rush. I'm going to wait a few months so I can get things in order. Get healthy, get a job, speak to a D lawyer. I'm satisfied that she is not currently cheating or has been in the last few years so there is no rush. 

I'm new to this forum, so I'm not sure of the protocol. Should I stop the discussion or stop posting my thoughts until I do confront?


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## ABHale

SAMHAIN said:


> Of course I'm going to confront. I think about it every hour of the day. It just keeps popping into my head. As discussed earlier, there is no rush. I'm going to wait a few months so I can get things in order. Get healthy, get a job, speak to a D lawyer. I'm satisfied that she is not currently cheating or has been in the last few years so there is no rush.
> 
> I'm new to this forum, so I'm not sure of the protocol. Should I stop the discussion or stop posting my thoughts until I do confront?


No, do what ever you need to. The forum is here to try and help. Everyone does their own thing in their own time. You have a choice to make take your time and make sure it’s the right one. 

Confront when you are ready to.


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## sokillme

SAMHAIN said:


> Of course I'm going to confront. I think about it every hour of the day. It just keeps popping into my head. As discussed earlier, there is no rush. I'm going to wait a few months so I can get things in order. Get healthy, get a job, speak to a D lawyer. I'm satisfied that she is not currently cheating or has been in the last few years so there is no rush.
> 
> I'm new to this forum, so I'm not sure of the protocol. Should I stop the discussion or stop posting my thoughts until I do confront?


No, not saying that, it just sounds like you are resigning yourself to the fact that this is who your wife is, because of her BPD.


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## OutofRetirement

There is not perfect solution to your problem, confronting now vs. confronting later. I understand wanting to get your ducks in a row and I agree with it to an extent. However, keep in mind, the problem is that you are not a professional spy. In my opinion, it's very unlikely you can mask your emotions and feelings well enough. My opinion, many women are more tuned in to feelings and underpinings than are men. Not always, but often. And especially that seems to have been the case in your relationship, in the situation where she cheated and you had no idea. None.

So what happens is that she figures out something is wrong, maybe it comes out in your changes in wanting her sexually or romantically or affectionately, the things you say to her, the tone of your voice and facial expressions and body language. Now you are kind of living like a lie, and I think it will affect you.

I personally think the affair was longer rather than shorter, but based on facts alone that you have found, it might have been a short affair with maybe one time. The mythical "only once" story.

I'm not saying to confront now, and I'm not saying to confront later after you get your ducks in a row. I usually tend to prefer to confront fast and hard, shock and awe, but I tend to prefer waiting and getting the ducks in a row in your particular situation. But I think you should realize that you and her both will see the difference in your decision to wait.


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## Satya

Until his wife has a formal diagnosis by a professionally trained expert, no one here should be saying she's BPD. She SEEMS to have some qualities of BPD. But right now, that is all.


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## SunCMars

SAMHAIN said:


> In my case, it wasn't so much that she just quit. Sex has always been an issue with us. I'm HD and I thought she was LD because of her past issues. I believed it was something we (or her) could work on. This is the reason I took so long to officially marry her. I look back know and regret a lot of choices I made (or didn't make). I should have been encouraging her to go to therapy since early on, because I did feel there was a deeper issue besides the fact that she "just wasn't into me". She was/is a beautiful woman (used to model as a teenager), and if she wasn't in love with me there would be no reason to stay. She could have had her pick of men. I wasn't her "meal ticket", we've never had a lot of money. But every time I gently pushed IC, she would get angry or upset, and it's easier for me to put my head in the sand. I admit I was weak, and should have insisted but that's in the past. All I can do know is set up the future to be the best for both of us, whatever that may be.


You see......

You see yourself as the 'Man in the Mirror', an average or just under one who is attractive.
She is the opposite, to that person in your mirror.

She is beautiful, she is 'out of your' league. Or so you thought, still think, to a degree.

Her form is beautiful, a luscious body, a beautiful face.....a real catch, a trophy-wife she appears.
I could see falling into this trap as a young man, I could.

The saying that, "Beauty is only skin deep", is true. 
A women's real worth is her love, her devotion, her readily offered, mutually enjoyed, intimacy between the sheets.
Her loyal, friendly companionship through good times and bad.

Your wife has only the exterior beauty locked in. The rest never bloomed, remains locked away.
It is likely not totally her fault. It is nobody's fault. It just is.

You sacrificed a lot to get that woman in the mirror. Ignoring the larger unattractive one that lies hidden under her flesh.
You married a plastic doll.

Me, I would 'seemingly' trade down, in actuality, trade up. Divorce her, 
Search for the beautiful women under some other skin. 

One, whose beauty binds you, blinds you, in this short life. 
A beauty between the lines, under the rib cage, a sweet loving being, between the sheets.

One who relishes, begs you to love her.

Just Sayin'

SunCMars-


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## Nucking Futs

OutofRetirement said:


> There is not perfect solution to your problem, confronting now vs. confronting later. I understand wanting to get your ducks in a row and I agree with it to an extent. However, keep in mind, the problem is that you are not a professional spy. In my opinion, it's very unlikely you can mask your emotions and feelings well enough. My opinion, many women are more tuned in to feelings and underpinings than are men. Not always, but often. And especially that seems to have been the case in your relationship, in the situation where she cheated and you had no idea. None.
> 
> So what happens is that she figures out something is wrong, maybe it comes out in your changes in wanting her sexually or romantically or affectionately, the things you say to her, the tone of your voice and facial expressions and body language. Now you are kind of living like a lie, and I think it will affect you.
> 
> I personally think the affair was longer rather than shorter, but based on facts alone that you have found, it might have been a short affair with maybe one time. The mythical "only once" story.
> 
> *I'm not saying to confront now, and I'm not saying to confront later after you get your ducks in a row. I usually tend to prefer to confront fast and hard, shock and awe, but I tend to prefer waiting and getting the ducks in a row in your particular situation. But I think you should realize that you and her both will see the difference in your decision to wait.*


I agree 100%. Shock and awe for active infidelity, fully aligned ducks for past infidelity.


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## Jasel

The reason I said waiting months was unnecessary was most BS would not be able to handle staying silent for so long. But I forgot in your case the affair has been over for almost a decade and you seem confident she isn't cheating at the time. 

But if you _can_ handle acting normal the next few months without giving anything away then that's preferable. Waiting to confront will go better for you or at least not go as badly if you confront sooner. So ya get a job, keep yourself healthy (eat, hydrate, exercise, limit the booze) and in a more stoic place emotionally. Keep posting on the forum even if it's just to vent since it doesn't sound like you too many people to vent to in person.

And if she does have BPD, be prepared for her to lose her **** at confrontation no matter how you handle it. It's probably not a bad idea to have a VAR you can keep on your person while dealing with your wife. During and after confrontation at the least. Just don't ever let her see or find it if you do and make sure you know the consent laws regarding recording someone else wherever you live.


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## Thor

There is no perfect time to confront (or to have any particular conversation). While I wouldn't confront today, I would do it a lot sooner than months from now.

I think you are avoiding unpleasantness. There are a lot of dark gremlins back in that cave which are going to come out if you go in there. You can see a few eyeballs glowing back at you when you peer in there, and you know there are more you can't see yet. It is easier to come up with excuses not to go in than to pull up your boots and wade on in.

As someone posted earlier, paraphrased, "what kind of ******* leaves a wife who was abused as a child?". My own internal thought process was "I don't want to be yet another male who abuses her". Whatever traumas your wife has been through are her issues to deal with. She has been avoiding wading into her own dark cave of gremlins. But that is her mistake, and not your burden to bear. She is an adult.

And confronting her about past infidelity risks getting her upset. It risks her cutting off affection. It risks facing the issue and possibly deciding to leave the relationship.

You can't R all by yourself. You can't R in secret. You can't R if she doesn't even know. That isn't reconciliation, it is rug sweeping. It is you convincing yourself what she did was ok, and there is no reason to even discuss it with her.

You can work on R at the same time you're looking for a job, and getting back in shape. You can speak to a lawyer this week! That does not take months.


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## drifting on

SAMHAIN

I’ve thought of your situation for a few days, a couple of pointers or advice however you wish to take it. 

Be prepared. You need to be prepared and confident when you confront. Your words need to be direct, no sugar coating of anything. Divorce papers filled out and only awaiting your wife’s signature. A polygraph scheduled for the day after confrontation. You also need a list of boundaries and conditions to remain married. These will come later in the post.

Confrontation. Inform your wife you already know she cheated and name OM. Show her the divorce papers and point to the reason that lists adultery and OM. I would also print a couple of the photos and have them attached to the divorce papers. I’m not a fan of showing your evidence, but showing it leaves very little wiggle room for trickle truth. So be prepared with photos and certain printing of text messages. Your demeanor during this time is to be very confident and firm. If she loses her self control or anger you get in her face with your anger. Tell her if she wants to see her problem up close to stand in front of a mirror. Then tell her that is who she gets angry with.

Boundaries. Whatever you decide is good for your marriage. A few I would insist on is transparency, communication, and zero contact of males after work. Therapy, admission of all affairs, admission to any of your affair questions would be conditions to remain married to you. Obviously you can add to both lists that you would need in order to reconcile. These would not be open for debate or discussion, these are new conditions for your new marriage. 

When you confront you should be prepared for the worst, nothing should surprise you. I would wait a maximum of one month to confront, you need to do some heavy work to make this work. What you do after confronting is telling your wife you are taking steps to become a better person. A better person for your wife or someone else, this is decided by her response to the infidelity. The affair is owned by herself and nobody else. You are going to work on your fifty percent of the marriage problems. Tell your wife in six months you will decide what path you are choosing to take. During this time her actions will be evaluated on whether she wants the marriage or not. You will evaluate whether she makes an attempt to become a better person, such as therapy.


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## SunCMars

Satya said:


> Until his wife has a formal diagnosis by a professionally trained expert, no one here should be saying she's BPD. She SEEMS to have some qualities of BPD. But right now, that is all.


OK, Mom!


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## Uptown

^^^^^ Well, I agreed with *Satya*. I guess that makes me Dad, LOL. So, *SunC*, you go straightway to your room, Little Fella! :wink2:


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## 3putt

Uptown said:


> ^^^^^ Well, I agreed with *Satya*. I guess that makes me Dad, LOL. So, *SunC*, you go straightway to your room, Little Fella! :wink2:


Wait a darned minute, now. I've agreed with her too. Does that make me the OM???

I swear, she never told me she was married.


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## Suspicious1

drifting on said:


> SAMHAIN
> 
> I’ve thought of your situation for a few days, a couple of pointers or advice however you wish to take it.
> 
> Be prepared. You need to be prepared and confident when you confront. Your words need to be direct, no sugar coating of anything. Divorce papers filled out and only awaiting your wife’s signature. A polygraph scheduled for the day after confrontation. You also need a list of boundaries and conditions to remain married. These will come later in the post.
> 
> Confrontation. Inform your wife you already know she cheated and name OM. Show her the divorce papers and point to the reason that lists adultery and OM. I would also print a couple of the photos and have them attached to the divorce papers. I’m not a fan of showing your evidence, but showing it leaves very little wiggle room for trickle truth. So be prepared with photos and certain printing of text messages. Your demeanor during this time is to be very confident and firm. If she loses her self control or anger you get in her face with your anger. Tell her if she wants to see her problem up close to stand in front of a mirror. Then tell her that is who she gets angry with.
> 
> Boundaries. Whatever you decide is good for your marriage. A few I would insist on is transparency, communication, and zero contact of males after work. Therapy, admission of all affairs, admission to any of your affair questions would be conditions to remain married to you. Obviously you can add to both lists that you would need in order to reconcile. These would not be open for debate or discussion, these are new conditions for your new marriage.
> 
> When you confront you should be prepared for the worst, nothing should surprise you. I would wait a maximum of one month to confront, you need to do some heavy work to make this work. What you do after confronting is telling your wife you are taking steps to become a better person. A better person for your wife or someone else, this is decided by her response to the infidelity. The affair is owned by herself and nobody else. You are going to work on your fifty percent of the marriage problems. Tell your wife in six months you will decide what path you are choosing to take. During this time her actions will be evaluated on whether she wants the marriage or not. You will evaluate whether she makes an attempt to become a better person, such as therapy.


Wouldn't this allow her to keep any other affair locked up on her box of secrets, if he come's out with guns a blazing?

I do like you're approach thou, but if he mentions the OM she might make quick pivot in her story line and make adjustments.

A few posters alluded to keeping certain aspects in the dark, and letting divulge what ever other details she might be hiding.


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## [email protected]

It's about time to let her know what's up.


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## Uptown

VladDracul said:


> I didn't realize BPD would make a wife quit putting out for her husband for 11 years an take up intermittently banging other guys.


It doesn't, Vlad. Serial cheating is a behavior most associated with Histrionic PD and Bipolar-1, not with BPD. The sudden drop off in sexual activity, however, is common with BPDers because -- after the infatuation fades and the wedding is over -- their great fear of engulfment may become very strong.


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## SunCMars

Suspicious1 said:


> Wouldn't this allow her to keep any other affair locked up on her box of secrets, if he come's out with guns a blazing?
> 
> I do like you're approach thou, but if he mentions the OM she might make quick pivot in her story line and make adjustments.
> 
> A few posters alluded to keeping certain aspects in the dark, and letting divulge what ever other details she might be hiding.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


This is a good point. By telling her that you have been made aware [by others] that she has been cheating, carrying on with another man, she may divulge another one not known.


A more current lover. Maybe a EA, maybe a PA, likely neither. I suspect that she got cheating out of her system after the affair with the original POSOM.


If she has not cheated since, the marriage may be salvageable. If she is totally honest and she does the heavy lifting. She may deny everything and get mad until the evidence is overwhelming.


Don't forget, you need a job first. There is no hurry. At least not at this point. Keep snooping. Hire a private investigator, if necessary, to track her.


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## drifting on

Suspicious1 said:


> Wouldn't this allow her to keep any other affair locked up on her box of secrets, if he come's out with guns a blazing?
> 
> I do like you're approach thou, but if he mentions the OM she might make quick pivot in her story line and make adjustments.
> 
> A few posters alluded to keeping certain aspects in the dark, and letting divulge what ever other details she might be hiding.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk



Hence the polygraph scheduled for the next day, she has one chance to come clean. Polygraph fail for a question of any other affairs other then OM mentioned is instant divorce. She takes a polygraph because she will lie, OP can’t take her word even if she confirms the affair with known OM. Hit hard and keep hitting, the goal is to get her to the angriest she’s ever been. This is when she just may admit to more, when her thinking is clouded by extreme anger. Betrayed spouses have extreme anger and are reminded here to think before acting, same works for the wayward spouse, use the anger against them. If you are calm and collected you can provoke this extreme anger.


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## drifting on

Also, kind of hard to pivot with a text history of photos and an admission of a physical affair. Keep piling pressure on her to make her break.


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## [email protected]

Drifting on is right. Keep increasing the pressure. Don't back off an inch.


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## french1234

Samhain

1) The affair is not your fault. That is not what Athol is saying.

2) Athol is absolutely right in what he write about. Thousands of people have put his theory to the test and it holds up. Go to the marriedredpill sub on reddit and you will see the success stories.

3) What Athol is saying is not that your wife will cheat if you act a certain way: she will stop having sex with you, but not all women who are not attracted to their man cheats.

4) If your wife has low self esteem, and it sounds like she does, then you cannot put her on a pedestal. LSE women can never respect a man who respects her more than he respects himself.

5) Usually, I always say you should confront, but in this cast, think very carefully. I am not sure your wife is someone who can ever be attracted to a man who has such low self respect that he will keep a woman who has cheated on him. It may be better not to let her know. If she knows that you know about her affair yet still kept her, she will likely be repelled.

6) Your wife's sex problem is with you, not with other men, since she had no problem having sex with her AP. So you have to face the truth, that she does not have LL or aftereffects of CSA. Those are excuses, or else she wouldn't have had the affair. She is not attracted to you.

7) Why is she not attracted to you? It's usually more than just physical, although if you're out of shape, you need to get in shape. It's usually because the guy himself has low self esteem, doesn't think he can do better, isn't supporting and protecting the family, etc. In your first post, you desperately wanted to keep a woman who barely gives you sex yet had an affair.

Think about it from her perspective. What kind of man would tolerate a dead bedroom with a woman who cheats? Someone with low self respect, someone with no other options, someone that no other woman would want. Why would your wife want someone like that?

8) My advice? Go to the reddit sub I mentioned. Don't confront yet. If you confront now, when you're not attractive to her, she will leave. You have to make yourself attractive first, someone she would want to keep. Change yourself. Take her off the pedestal. Put yourself in a position where you have plenty of other options. You should be in a position to decide whether to keep her or not.


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## Thor

french1234 said:


> 6) Your wife's sex problem is with you, not with other men, since she had no problem having sex with her AP. So you have to face the truth, that she does not have LL or aftereffects of CSA. Those are excuses, or else she wouldn't have had the affair. She is not attracted to you.


Her lack of sexual attraction to her husband for other reasons notwithstanding, CSA indeed frequently leads women to be very sexual before and outside of marriage, but emotionally unable to be sexual within the marriage. CSA is one of the top 3 risk factors for infidelity according to some studies.

It is a complex psychological effect. Some CSA victims become quite prudish, while others become more sexual than average. So it can go either way, and of course there is an entire spectrum of impacts. Those who are more sexual than average tend to start sexual activity at a younger age, and be more promiscuous in their teens and 20's than average. But when they get married, their husband has crossed a boundary to become an adult male relative. Subconsciously to the victim, she now places him in the same category as her abuser. He becomes dangerous. And so she finds sex with him creates anxiety or even trauma.

In the case of victims who are promiscuous when single, the husband observes his previously very sexual relationship with her suddenly becomes sex-starved after the wedding.

Anyhow, CSA is one of those things which results in behaviors, beliefs, and emotions which are not logical to the rest of us who were not victimized.


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## Thor

To add to the above, CSA is not an excuse for cheating. I actually see it more the reverse, that it is potentially a bigger problem for her to overcome than some other pathways into cheating. CSA can be a really deep difficult issue which she may not be willing or able to address.


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## Luvher4life

There's no excusing betrayal like the WW has done in this instance. I have seen it before, though, where it was explained to me by a wayward that there was "no ring on my finger", so I wasn't truly cheating while married. That kind of faulty thinking is disgusting to me. Cheating is cheating if you are in an exclusive relationship regardless of a ring or not. The person I talked to justified it in her mind, and has been "faithful" to her marriage as far as I know, but that is a screwed up way of thinking. I honestly don't know whether she ever came clean with her husband or not. I seriously doubt it.


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## [email protected]

Sam, I went back and reread all of your posts. It looks like you are dragging your feet, but in some ways I don't blame you. Those images are seared into your memory and you will never get rid of them. As for the eleven years, she just wasn't attracted to you. But she was to her AP.


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## Walloped

Just wanted to say I’m sorry you’re going through this.


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## Cromer

Tatsuhiko said:


> Wow, @Cromer, I remember your thread well. It got closed at some point, and we never heard an update about your situation. Her behavior with regard to intimacy was reason enough to split. I don't think any of us ever heard about the affair, which makes her behavior even more reprehensible. It would be great if you could reopen your thread or start a new one. I want updates about your great happiness and success in the coming years. It's coming--count on it.


FSJ reopened the thread for me, the update starts here. It's a sorry tale: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/378298-getting-ready-drop-news-25.html


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## SAMHAIN

Just wanted to check in. I'm having a hard time with my thoughts. I can't stop thinking about the events that happened in 2009. I keep replaying the text conversations in my mind multiple times a day, no matter how hard I try not to. I just don't know how to keep it out of my mind. Will things get better after I confront? I know that depends on her and how she reacts, but this is still the most painful thing I've ever had to deal with. I'm still investigating every chance I get, and have not found any new evidence. I'm still 99% sure this ended years ago and there hasn't been anyone since. Our relationship is better this past month than it has been in a long time (probably due to me being more assertive with what I want out of our marriage). 

We had a minor spat the other night, and I use those times to try and gather information too. I told her that maybe some of her sexual issues are because of me, and maybe she regrets not being with anyone else or how would she know it's not me if she hasn't been with anyone else and she denies that she would ever want to be with anyone else. I even asked her if she would like it if we would send each other nude pictures to try and spice things up, and she said she's not into that at all and it would be dumb (meanwhile, sexting is what led to her affair with the OM). I get that people change over the years, but it's hard to hear her lie to me. If she tries to lie or deny in the face of evidence when I do confront, it will crush me. 

The plan is still to confront in a few months when I'm in a better place personally. I've lost almost 20lbs since D-Day. I guess if there is one positive to infidelity, is that it is a great motivator to better yourself. My problem now is how do I deal with thinking about the evidence I know about multiple times a day and getting that sinking feeling in my stomach? Is it better to confront sooner rather than latter and just see what happens? Financially I don't have the few hundreds dollars right now to even get the D papers setup and ready to present to her. I just really hate that this happened and I found out. Sometimes I wish I hadn't...


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## farsidejunky

Your procrastination is causing limbo, which is exactly why you continue to suffer.


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## GusPolinski

JFC.

You _*STILL*_ haven’t confronted?

Even in the face of outright lies?

Geez.


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## re16

SAMHAIN said:


> The plan is still to confront in a few months when I'm in a better place personally. .


Glad you came back for an update.

Her still in contact with this guy 8 months ago, this affair by no means ended 9 years ago. It is likely still going, maybe sporadically, but you are very naive to believe otherwise.

You need to confront now. This is eating you up and you are living a lie now as well by hiding that you know this.

The first step to getting in a better place personally is to confront. Only let a little information out at a time and you'll see her start spinning the lies and revealing her true self.

You need to get mad and start moving on, instead of drifting listlessly.

Be prepared to threaten to go to polygraph when she starts denying.

Beyond that, be ready to walk away.


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## SAMHAIN

re16 said:


> Glad you came back for an update.
> 
> Her still in contact with this guy 8 months ago, this affair by no means ended 9 years ago. It is likely still going, maybe sporadically, but you are very naive to believe otherwise.


She has not been in contact with him. Not sure where you got the 8 months ago from? Maybe it was something I said that wasn't clear?

I saw in her phone that he texted her last year and asked "Hi, how are you". There was no reply from her. As far as I know, the last time she had contact with him was a little over 2 years ago when I actually asked her to text him and ask him the name of his accountant (we had our own business at the time and needed a reliable tax guy and I knew he worked with a good accountant). She was reluctant to contact him, which I thought was annoying at the time but now I know why she didn't want to deal with it.


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## re16

SAMHAIN said:


> She has not been in contact with him. Not sure where you got the 8 months ago from? Maybe it was something I said that wasn't clear?
> 
> I saw in her phone that he texted her last year and asked "Hi, how are you". There was no reply from her. As far as I know, the last time she had contact with him was a little over 2 years ago when I actually asked her to text him and ask him the name of his accountant (we had our own business at the time and needed a reliable tax guy and I knew he worked with a good accountant). She was reluctant to contact him, which I thought was annoying at the time but now I know why she didn't want to deal with it.


*I got the 8 months ago from this:*



SAMHAIN said:


> She’s addicted to her phone, so I haven’t had much chance to take a good look at her current one. I did glance quickly the other day, and *while I did see a text from the OM, it was from 8 months ago* and he asked “Hi, how are you”. She didn’t reply (unless she deleted it, but if that’s the case she would have deleted the whole conversation). So perhaps this is way behind her.


You have written evidence that this man had sex with your wife and he is contacting as recently as 8 months ago. Was it imessage or SMS? If it is imessage, then your check of phone records wouldn't show it. You saw he was contacting her 2 years ago. There is still contact happening, you are in denial if you think otherwise.

What if he is telling her that will tell you if she doesn't service him and she is complying?

Maybe she has a burner that she contacts him on.

It is not over.


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## re16

Why don't you just confront her tonight and get it over with.


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## TAMAT

Bear in mind that he has only known for about a month or two which is hardly time to recover from the initial shock, or even set up adequate surveillance and an attack plan for the OM.

Tamat


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## [email protected]

This guy is really sad. I predict he'll be in the same place a month from now.


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## Mr.Married

Actually he is playing it smart and getting his ducks in a row before doing what the dummies do and beg their spouse for details
when they have no concrete evidence.


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## Chaparral

You don’t have to have a lawyer. Check online for a divorce packet from your state. 

Ask your wife to show you how she rubs one out. When she denies she does that say “You know like you sent to your boyfriend,” and show her a copy of what you have. 

Your living in a hell now of your own making. Blaming yourself is just trying to excuse her unfaithfulness. She burned you and you have to accept that’s who she is. She was all over him and all she lets you have are the leftover crumbs. You’re just her buddy not her eff buddy.

When you let her know she may get over her guilt. I don’t remember but when did your sex life go south. What else was going on at that time.


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## michzz

SAMHAIN said:


> .... Financially I don't have the few hundreds dollars right now to even get the D papers setup and ready to present to her. I just really hate that this happened and I found out. Sometimes I wish I hadn't...


Then sell something, get a side job, borrow it. This funk you're in is telling you to crawl into a hole rather than act.

ACT!


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## SunCMars

SAMHAIN said:


> The plan is still to confront in a few months when I'm in a better place personally. I've lost almost 20lbs since D-Day. I guess if there is one positive to infidelity, is that it is a great motivator to better yourself. My problem now is how do I deal with thinking about the evidence I know about multiple times a day and getting that sinking feeling in my stomach? Is it better to confront sooner rather than latter and just see what happens? Financially I don't have the few hundreds dollars right now to even get the D papers setup and ready to present to her. I just really hate that this happened and I found out. Sometimes I wish I hadn't...


What the Sam Hell, the Sam Hain?

Stop worrying and making excuses. You have a plan, keep to it.

You lost weight, you are getting fit. Keep working out, long walks, short runs. Lift to build muscle.

More importantly GET A JOB.


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## [email protected]

Yeah, you really need a job, even if it's just delivering pizza.


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## threelittlestars

YOU need to confront.... Sure it will still hurt but this wont get better. You YOU are dragging it out. And for what? To line up ducks? You haven't done that in the last month? 

Confront already!


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## OutofRetirement

"As far as I know know ..."


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## BobSimmons

She's addicted to affairs, SAMHAIN's addicted to waiting to confront. 

Yep in a few months..no cancel that I'll confront next year..nope wait..I'll wait 2 years..yep that's the ticket, just 2 years..oh man she's going to get it..nope nope, I'll wait another year, 3 years, TAM can you hear me, are you with me..not ready yet, 30 more days...


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## [email protected]

He is pathetic. He's too ch.....en sh.. to confront a mouse, much less his WW. He'll be here, whining about it next year.


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## jlg07

@SAMHAIN, just checking in? Have you found a job? Hit a lawyer? confronted? Have you found any additional info about her affair(s)?


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