# New thread with Update



## Erudite

I am sorry, I deleted my other thread because I thought my H might be suspicious. Turns out that I was being paranoid. This is my only real outlet for the the things that are going on and I don't want to lose your support.

Anyway, I had my interview. It seemed to go well but I have not heard back. Maybe I should have pushed myself harder. Have applied to a few more jobs. Trying not to let this get me down. 

Found out H was talking about me behind my back to my son after I explicitly asked him not to. Son does not want to confide much in me because he doesn't want his father to think he is breaking his trust. H has lectured me twice in the last week. Each time raising the level to pull at my guilt strings. Says my littlest shouldn't go to daycare for some low paying job. That when we divorce he'll hire a live in nanny for little DS....That if I am going to look for work I might as well look for a place to live...that 30 days seems more than enough time. I THINK he is just being a blowhard but is so hard...

H just asked me, sort of, for sex for the first time in nearly two months. It was just last night that he was threatening to kick me out in front of the kids. So I turned him down in probably not the nicest way. 

I said "Really? After everything that has gone on? No."
He gave me that condescending look and said "Really. I thought you wanted to stay here. I guess I know where you stand."

He has been playing passive aggressive mind games lately, too. Now I am in tears. Again. Yay.  It seems like that's all I can do.


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## Lostinthought61

Sorry I don't recall your other threads, what are the fundamental issues in your marriage ?


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## Erudite

Xenote said:


> Sorry I don't recall your other threads, what are the fundamental issues in your marriage ?


Everything? ;p

We have been together for 17 years. I have been a stay at home, home schooling mother for the last 11 years. My eldest child is now in public school. My littlest would have to go to daycare/preschool full time when I go back to work. My husband is, and has always been, notoriously unreliable and somewhat of a cynic. He has managed to keep a roof over our heads, food on the table, and clothes on our back and curriculum/supplies for my child's schooling. These are admirable qualities and I have disappointed him with severe weight gain/depression/and poor housekeeping skills over the years so my hands are not clean in the failure of the marriage.

The past 3 or 4 years have been incredibly difficult for us. My husband can not keep a job. He has had well over a dozen jobs during the course of our marriage with long bouts of unemployment (up to a year in some cases) He lies to get jobs, (actually he lies period) has problems with authority, lectures and is critical of everyone, and has developed sticky fingers. He will not help around the house (even while unemployed), the house is on the brink of foreclosure, I have been without a vehicle for a better part of the last four years, he goes to court next month for check fraud which could lead to jail time. He has an RX addiction, is sick/has migraines all the time. He has become verbally abusive, threatens divorce often, is passive aggressive and plays mind games. Oh and sex once in the blue moon. Which may have been my fault but now I no longer care enough to even try to engage...

I am going back to work. I have made a resume, applied to jobs, got an interview which didn't pan out..


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## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> My husband is, and has always been, notoriously unreliable and somewhat of a cynic.
> 
> My husband can not keep a job. He has had well over a dozen jobs during the course of our marriage with long bouts of unemployment (up to a year in some cases)
> 
> He lies to get jobs, (actually he lies period) has problems with authority, lectures and is critical of everyone, and has developed sticky fingers.
> 
> He will not help around the house (even while unemployed), the house is on the brink of foreclosure, I have been without a vehicle for a better part of the last four years, he goes to court next month for check fraud which could lead to jail time.
> 
> He has an RX addiction, is sick/has migraines all the time.
> 
> He has become verbally abusive, threatens divorce often, is passive aggressive and plays mind games.


Ah, I see you have married the clone of my first husband who, by the way, was a raging narcissist. He couldn't hold a job either. The boss was a moron. The sales quotas weren't fair. Some b!tch in the office got on his nerves. He was "special" and far more intelligent than the jerks running the company.

I lost count of how many jobs he had and lost. 

But I got out. And I did it by taking a job that wasn't a particularly great fit for me, but I was able to get away from that monster.

Take any job you are offered. Apply for government assistance. Divorce this lunatic. As a rule, I will advocate separation, but not divorce.

However, it would be to your financial advantage to divorce this sh!t. Do you have commingled funds and/or joint accounts? You don't want to have a single thing in common with this man when it comes to finances.

Also, he's an addict. And he is doing exactly what addicts do: lying and manipulating. As long as he threatens you and keeps you in a position of fear, he thinks he has the upper hand.

It wasn't until I got angry enough to say I'd had enough that I walked out. And it shocked him.

Finally, the mouse that roared. And roar I did. I walked myself into court three days after I left, filed a restraining order, and had my ex tossed out of the house. Three state trooper cruisers were in our driveway to escort him out of the community. I was assured safety while I packed my things.

Yes, you WILL be afraid, but bravery is not the absence of fear; it is doing what needs to be done even in the presence of fear. I assure you, and I am living proof, that you CAN get away from an abuser and have a real life.

You just need to take the first step.


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## lucy999

Couldn't have said it better, prodigal. This family must be large because my former 12-year live in BF surely is a close relative!! OP, The only difference I see between your H and my ex is mine is addicted to rage, not pills.

GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT. He's a dirtbag and doesn't care about anyone but himself. He sounds like a true blue narc.

I got out. Life is so much sweeter!


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## Erudite

Prodigal said:


> Ah, I see you have married the clone of my first husband who, by the way, was a raging narcissist. He couldn't hold a job either. The boss was a moron. The sales quotas weren't fair. Some b!tch in the office got on his nerves. He was "special" and far more intelligent than the jerks running the company.
> 
> I lost count of how many jobs he had and lost.
> 
> But I got out. And I did it by taking a job that wasn't a particularly great fit for me, but I was able to get away from that monster.
> 
> Take any job you are offered. Apply for government assistance. Divorce this lunatic. As a rule, I will advocate separation, but not divorce.
> 
> However, it would be to your financial advantage to divorce this sh!t. Do you have commingled funds and/or joint accounts? You don't want to have a single thing in common with this man when it comes to finances.
> 
> Also, he's an addict. And he is doing exactly what addicts do: lying and manipulating. As long as he threatens you and keeps you in a position of fear, he thinks he has the upper hand.
> 
> It wasn't until I got angry enough to say I'd had enough that I walked out. And it shocked him.
> 
> Finally, the mouse that roared. And roar I did. I walked myself into court three days after I left, filed a restraining order, and had my ex tossed out of the house. Three state trooper cruisers were in our driveway to escort him out of the community. I was assured safety while I packed my things.
> 
> Yes, you WILL be afraid, but bravery is not the absence of fear; it is doing what needs to be done even in the presence of fear. I assure you, and I am living proof, that you CAN get away from an abuser and have a real life.
> 
> You just need to take the first step.


Yes, everything you said about your ex and jobs is so right on the money!

He hates that I am not backing off getting a job. I am "allowed" to work part time (nights/weekends). If I insist on working full time he'll divorce me and give a "nanny" room and board to watch DS all day. Of course if he goes to jail what will be my options then, huh?

He never thought I would send DS to school, but I did, over his objections. My relationship with DS greatly improved and DS is doing well in school so now H's tune has changed and sending DS to school was a decision we made "together". I suppose that I hoped that once I got a job, and all the pressure was off to be the "sole provider" that H would have a change of heart. I would let him save face like with sending DS to school. While H has always had job issues and been cynical it is only the last few years that he has become so bad that I could not compensate. I guess I had hoped that when he saw that I actually had the option to leave, without going to a shelter, that he would get his act together. In fact that I told him that I needed to get a job for self esteem and not be reliant on him so much to kind of "equalize" the relationship. Funnily enough when I got an interview he actually got one, too! He starts on Monday after being out of work since before Christmas.

But then the police investigation came, he has been escalating his verbal tirades, trying to alienate me from my eldest child, and playing games. Sometimes I come away thinking it IS my fault. That I need to lose the weight fast etc etc.


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## lucy999

Oh, sweetheart, this may sound strange, but this has nothing to do with you. Its all about him. Just the way he likes it. You could be his ideal girl and it wouldn't matter. Continue getting your ducks in a row. Took me a year to get mine together but I still left. Eye on the prize. A life that you want and deserve.

I've said here before I have a tremendous amount of self loathing for not leaving much sooner. I was such a chump! Its been almost 4 years and for the life of me can't believe I stayed with such a monster.


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## Erudite

lucy999 said:


> Oh, sweetheart, this may sound strange, but this has nothing to do with you. Its all about him. Just the way he likes it. You could be his ideal girl and it wouldn't matter. Continue getting your ducks in a row. Took me a year to get mine together but I still left. Eye on the prize. A life that you want and deserve.
> 
> I've said here before I have a tremendous amount of self loathing for not leaving much sooner. I was such a chump! Its been almost 4 years and for the life of me can't believe I stayed with such a monster.


How did you hold it together for a year while working on getting everything in order?

It hurts to be with him. Not because of his behavior, necessarily, but because of what we had (for a long time) and it's just gone and I wonder if it was all a lie.

I understand the chump feeling. We met when I was 19. Started dating when I was 21. Got married when I was 23 had our first kid when I was 24. He's been my only long term relationship and the only man I've ever been intimate with.. Fully half my life has been devoted to him and our family....

Anyway, I am looking for a job. I can't do anything about anything until then.


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## RespectWalk

He can't hold a job, he has "sticky fingers" so he's a thief. He's also a drug addict. Take whatever steps you need to be able to support yourself and the kids and then get away from this loser.


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> How did you hold it together for a year while working on getting everything in order?


I lucked out. He got a job where he worked the night shift. So we barely saw eachother. When I finally kicked him to the curb, he lasted all of 1 more month at that job and he was fired (soooprise sooprise).

I'll be honest. My whole 12-year relationship with him was a sham. And looking back, there were huge red flags from he get-go. That's on me. I own that. I'm ashamed I ignored them, boy am I ashamed. But it is what it is.

Take it task by task, day by day, minute by minute if you have to.

I PROMISE you. Life will be wonderful when you leave him.


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## EnjoliWoman

Prodigal said:


> Ah, I see you have married the clone of my first husband who, by the way, was a raging narcissist. He couldn't hold a job either. The boss was a moron. The sales quotas weren't fair. Some b!tch in the office got on his nerves. He was "special" and far more intelligent than the jerks running the company.
> 
> I lost count of how many jobs he had and lost.
> 
> But I got out. And I did it by taking a job that wasn't a particularly great fit for me, but I was able to get away from that monster.
> 
> Take any job you are offered. Apply for government assistance. Divorce this lunatic. As a rule, I will advocate separation, but not divorce.
> 
> However, it would be to your financial advantage to divorce this sh!t. Do you have commingled funds and/or joint accounts? You don't want to have a single thing in common with this man when it comes to finances.
> 
> Also, he's an addict. And he is doing exactly what addicts do: lying and manipulating. As long as he threatens you and keeps you in a position of fear, he thinks he has the upper hand.
> 
> It wasn't until I got angry enough to say I'd had enough that I walked out. And it shocked him.
> 
> Finally, the mouse that roared. And roar I did. I walked myself into court three days after I left, filed a restraining order, and had my ex tossed out of the house. Three state trooper cruisers were in our driveway to escort him out of the community. I was assured safety while I packed my things.
> 
> Yes, you WILL be afraid, but bravery is not the absence of fear; it is doing what needs to be done even in the presence of fear. I assure you, and I am living proof, that you CAN get away from an abuser and have a real life.
> 
> You just need to take the first step.


Funny/sad that my first thought was exactly the same - "sounds like a narcissist like my ex..." my life story right up there.

One thing you are exactly right about Erudite, is that the threats are empty. He can barely hold down a job so hire a nanny? Really? I was told I'd regret leaving because he'd be spending his time on a 50 ft yacht on the lake... I think he has some sort of ski boat (which we had anyway) but has lived with his aging mother for the past 8 years while I dug out from under the foreclosure, tax liens, etc. and own a house now.

You will be just fine. It's amazing how you can bloom once your soil isn't toxic!!! I can still remember my first day alone in my rental house after leaving him. I'd been moving, unpacking, etc. while my daughter was with my parents. I sat down and realized I could watch what I wanted on TV. I didn't have to be ridiculed about that, or what I was wearing, or what I ate. I didn't have to be careful about making noise or being sure I turned the blinds one way in the day and another at night, or worry about setting him off over something random and stupid. IT WAS BLISSFUL. It was almost confusing. I had to learn to be me again. You will be surprised at how quickly you come into your own.

ETA - don't underestimate his using the kids to hurt you. Ironclad visitation arrangements. Parallel parenting agreement. NEVER deviate. Learn to not engage - keep topics to necessary business and hang up if the treats, whining, accusations, etc start. Read Divorce Poison by Dr. Richard Warshack - you'll be prepared as to help the kids when he starts to 'poison' them.


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## Erudite

EnjoliWoman said:


> Funny/sad that my first thought was exactly the same - "sounds like a narcissist like my ex..." my life story right up there.
> 
> One thing you are exactly right about Erudite, is that the threats are empty. He can barely hold down a job so hire a nanny? Really? I was told I'd regret leaving because he'd be spending his time on a 50 ft yacht on the lake... I think he has some sort of ski boat (which we had anyway) but has lived with his aging mother for the past 8 years while I dug out from under the foreclosure, tax liens, etc. and own a house now.
> 
> You will be just fine. It's amazing how you can bloom once your soil isn't toxic!!! I can still remember my first day alone in my rental house after leaving him. I'd been moving, unpacking, etc. while my daughter was with my parents. I sat down and realized I could watch what I wanted on TV. I didn't have to be ridiculed about that, or what I was wearing, or what I ate. I didn't have to be careful about making noise or being sure I turned the blinds one way in the day and another at night, or worry about setting him off over something random and stupid. IT WAS BLISSFUL. It was almost confusing. I had to learn to be me again. You will be surprised at how quickly you come into your own.
> 
> ETA - don't underestimate his using the kids to hurt you. Ironclad visitation arrangements. Parallel parenting agreement. NEVER deviate. Learn to not engage - keep topics to necessary business and hang up if the treats, whining, accusations, etc start. Read Divorce Poison by Dr. Richard Warshack - you'll be prepared as to help the kids when he starts to 'poison' them.


Yes setting him off over something random and stupid. He doesn't rage all that often but he lectures, becomes condescending, and holier than thou. He can spend hours telling you the proper way to do a chore but never actually do the chore. (Like washing eggs out of pan or putting plastic in the dishwasher.) I have so many examples of random and stupid I could write a book.

The worst thing about using the kids against me is how he thinks I won't fight for them. HE decided that if we divorce he'll take the eldest (who is self sufficient and more of a man than his father) and I'll get the toddler. Right. Like that would. ever. happen. Just these really random and bizarre threats as if I can't take care of myself. When we are apart I can think clearly. When I am with him I shut down and am on guard. 

I have a dream of living in a small apartment or townhouse within walking distance of the library and park. Somewhere close to my kids school. I realize that many of my issues (like my weight) I can't focus on because I am TOO focused on him. I wonder if doing a little of the 180 plan might help me????


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## JustTired

Erudite,

Yes, please do the 180 starting now!


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## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> I have so many examples of random and stupid I could write a book.
> 
> When we are apart I can think clearly. When I am with him I shut down and am on guard.
> 
> I have a dream of living in a small apartment or townhouse within walking distance of the library and park. Somewhere close to my kids school. I realize that *many of my issues (like my weight) I can't focus on because I am TOO focused on him*. I wonder if doing a little of the 180 plan might help me????


First, I couldn't care less about his random/stupid behaviors. Many of us have been there, done that, bought the tee shirt.

You are rabidly codependent. 

Why is your focus on him? And, BTW, that is how he keeps you manipulated and hooked. As long as you stay in the loop of figuring him out and reacting to him, you will neglect yourself. It's easier to be miserable in the familiar than to be scared sh!tless and in the unfamiliar, isn't it? But that is what life is about ... taking the dive, throwing the dice, gambling on a long shot.

YOU NEED TO LEAVE THIS MAN. Yesterday wouldn't have been soon enough. How about family and friends? Can you stay with someone temporarily while you seek work? Can you clean, help out around the house, run errands for someone who will let you stay with them in return for your services?

You can lose weight, lose this jerk, lose your sanity, lose your hope, even lose your mind ... all without him being in the picture.

I spent too many years tethered to a lunatic. I had no job, no hope, no future. But I got out. I don't live in anything other than a studio apartment with a senior-citizen cat. But it's my life. Nobody - especially a crazy man - tells me what to wear, when to eat, what to eat, what channel to watch, or any other thing.

I lived with a narcissist. They are ALL blow, NO show. You stand up to this bully, get out, enlist friends/family to help you do so. Then get on with this one short, precious life YOU are destined to live.

Seriously.


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## Cynthia

Here is an article that might help you in assessing your job skills. 
{Guest post} How to find a job after (or while) homeschooling - Laughing at Chaos
Being a homeschool teacher requires the use of many skills. Don't discount that. Also, a lot of people are very impressed by people who homeschool. It takes a lot of patience, focus, organization, etc. Don't sell yourself short.


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## Omar174

Erudite said:


> Yes setting him off over something random and stupid. He doesn't rage all that often but he lectures, becomes condescending, and holier than thou. He can spend hours telling you the proper way to do a chore but never actually do the chore. (Like washing eggs out of pan or putting plastic in the dishwasher.) I have so many examples of random and stupid I could write a book.
> 
> The worst thing about using the kids against me is how he thinks I won't fight for them. HE decided that if we divorce he'll take the eldest (who is self sufficient and more of a man than his father) and I'll get the toddler. Right. Like that would. ever. happen. Just these really random and bizarre threats as if I can't take care of myself. When we are apart I can think clearly. When I am with him I shut down and am on guard.
> 
> I have a dream of living in a small apartment or townhouse within walking distance of the library and park. Somewhere close to my kids school. I realize that many of my issues (like my weight) I can't focus on because I am TOO focused on him. *I wonder if doing a little of the 180 plan might help me????*


Yes, it would. 

Doing A LOT of it would be even better.


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## Cynthia

I don't see the point of staying with your husband. He is abusive. He is probably going to jail. He hasn't really been supporting the family anyway.
What kinds of jobs are you looking for? What are the ages of your children?


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## Erudite

CynthiaDe said:


> I don't see the point of staying with your husband. He is abusive. He is probably going to jail. He hasn't really been supporting the family anyway.
> What kinds of jobs are you looking for? What are the ages of your children?


I love my husband. I don't think you spend almost 20 years with someone and not have deep seated feelings for them. You are supposed to be dependent on your partner, and they you. I don't think anyone goes into a relationship thinking that they have codependent tendencies. I think codependence comes on gradually. I don't think people think that they are enabling when in their heart all they want to do is help or get back an old feeling. Plus, he has not always been to the extreme that he is now. I know in my heart that things can not stay as they are and I am preparing myself mentally, and emotionally, to let him go but I'd be lying if I said that it was easy or it was something that I WANTED. It is something that needs to be done, though, I know.

Any yes, maybe that is how he hooks me and keeps me reeled in. It would be so much easier if I hated him but I don't. He is simply broken in a way that I realize now that I can't overlook or repair or compensate for. I hate that I cannot help him, but as the saying goes you can't help someone else if you can't help yourself. I get it. It's logical. But I hate it. He is my husband, the father of my kids. He may not be the greatest role model to them but he does love them and I hate messing with that.

I know it sounds dumb but I am so over being angry all the time. I am leaving because the tensions, angers, and uncertainties are unbearable. When I leave I don't want it to be, from my end, filled with anger or hatred. I want it to be from a place of understanding and hope for a better future for all of us, including my husband. Maybe it will be the wake up call he needs in his life. Maybe he will at least not have to stare a broken marriage in the face day after day. Maybe he will find someone else who knows how to deal with a man like him. Maybe with mom and dad not fighting anymore the kids will be happier.


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## Cynthia

It is normal that you love him.
Are you a Christian?
How old are your children?
What kinds of jobs are you looking for?
I am trying to understand your situation more clearly.


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## Erudite

CynthiaDe said:


> It is normal that you love him.
> Are you a Christian?
> How old are your children?
> What kinds of jobs are you looking for?
> I am trying to understand your situation more clearly.


I am Christian but have not attended church in quite some time. I wasn't always Christian, though, I came to God about midway through my marriage. My husband never did. I am having difficulty with a job after being home for the last 11 years. References are few and in between. I would like something secretarial or clerical but it may be the best I can do is Walmart.  I prefer not to discuss my kids other than to say that it will be difficult to arrange care for them without some kind of government assistance. That's really the pinch I am in financially. I can't get assistance until I move out but I can't move out until I get a job. So looking for a job is what I have been doing. The pay doesn't have to be great but I need to show landlords that I have a reliable work history. Also when it is time for the divorce I need to prove to the court that I can support my kids without my husband's help if necessary.


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## Cynthia

The reason I ask if you are a Christian is that, particularly among Christian homeschoolers, I have seen a lot of teaching that women are to be obedient to their husbands. Some of the teaching is quite oppressive and I'm wondering if any of that has influenced you to stay in a marriage where your husband has deserted his responsibilities.
I am also a Christian homeschooler of three children. I graduated two from homeschool high school. One has graduated from college. One is in college. One is still at home as we complete high school. Just to give you a little background, so you understand my perspective.
It does sound like you are in a difficult position. 
Are you a member of any homeschooling groups?


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## Erudite

CynthiaDe said:


> The reason I ask if you are a Christian is that, particularly among Christian homeschoolers, I have seen a lot of teaching that women are to be obedient to their husbands. Some of the teaching is quite oppressive and I'm wondering if any of that has influenced you to stay in a marriage where your husband has deserted his responsibilities.
> I am also a Christian homeschooler of three children. I graduated two from homeschool high school. One has graduated from college. One is in college. One is still at home as we complete high school. Just to give you a little background, so you understand my perspective.
> It does sound like you are in a difficult position.
> Are you a member of any homeschooling groups?


Well my husband wouldn't think I am obedient! LOL But obedience to my husband is not a factor. I don't want this life for my husband. I can see that he is a narcissist but it does not make him happy. I don't understand why he can't see the position he is putting himself, and by proxy, me and the children in with these choices. He waits and procrastinates until someone makes a decision for him just so that he can avoid responsibility.

So now I need to take responsibility. We were part of a co-op for a couple of years but it was very large and we din't get very close to a lot of people. We have maintained some of the few friendships but they are in no position to help either financially or with shelter. It is going to take time to be able to leave. I just want to do it with dignity.


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## Cynthia

In my area, we have a couple of homeschool e-mail loops. Sometimes those are good places to network and let people know who is looking for work.
Have you done any volunteer work over the years that you could put on your resume?
Do you know how to use Microsoft Office?


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## turnera

What's wrong with WalMart? And they're raising the base wages next month or two. Go ahead and apply there. You'll be AMAZED at the change in your feelings about yourself once you are working.

Aside from applying there - and applying for at least ONE JOB every single day - you need to look up all your city and county facilities, as well as United Way and any other agency that will help you. There is a LOT of help out there; you just have to go get it. And in all those agencies, find one that will offer therapy. You need it to start to love yourself again after all his nitpicking.


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## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> I love my husband. I don't think you spend almost 20 years with someone and not have deep seated feelings for them. You are supposed to be dependent on your partner, and they you.


You have every right to defend your feelings. But your feelings stem from codependency. And it starts at our families of origin. You can't be a little codependent or become it; just like you can't be a little bit pregnant. 

One of the lies of codependency is we are responsible for one another's feelings. Thus, we are dependent upon one another. I'm sorry, but that simply is not true. Two dependent people are propping each other up in an attempt to fulfill the inadequacies of their partner. 

You say you are a Christian. Practicing or not, I hope you realize that Jesus was the antithesis of codependency. I find his teachings to be quite well balanced. He said what he meant, he meant what he said, and he didn't compromise himself. 

I am certain you have very deep feelings for your husband. Heck, I loved my husband too. But I had to love him from a distance. Sometimes we need to get away from our partner to gain our perspective.

What the heck is wrong with Walmart? When I left my husband, I had a college degree. I graduated with honors. I ended up working at a Chik-fil-A counter in a mall food court for $9/hour. And I was darned glad to have the job.

Again, don't you have any family or friends who can help you out?


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## EnjoliWoman

Something that is a hard truth to learn about narcissism - they don't love. They can't love. He doesn't love you, never did. He doesn't love the kids, never will. You all serve a purpose. It can be that you make him look good to his family or society or his boss and gains him respect. But it isn't love because he's incapable. 

As long as the kids do well in school or a sport or give him something to brag about they will be in his good graces. The minute something makes him feel as if they make him look bad, the criticism starts and it's never constructive.

You are right that he is broken but it's not fixable because he will NEVER ADMIT HE IS BROKEN. Because that would mean he would have to admit he is flawed.

You may love him, but the sad reality is he doesn't love you and never did. He says the words to manipulate. He reels you back intentionally because a sun needs planets to revolve around it to make it the center of something.

He will never be a better role model, he will not change because you move out. In fact he will likely immediately seek out someone else to fill his need for admiration so don't be suprised that he has a girlfriend or even fiancee in a very short period of time. I bet he can be super charming if he wants to, right? 

It will not be a wake up call for him. He will place 100% of the blame on you, saying you gave up, you didn't try, you didn't [fill in the blank]. He will do this to maintain his facade and that's what he will tell everyone else to avoid accepting any blame.

But yes, the kids will be happier not seeing you two fight. I recommend counseling highly. United Family Services (division of United Way) offers family and individual counseling on a sliding scale based on income. They also accept insurance once you are employed/have benefits.

From those of us who have been right there in your shoes (I was married for 15 years), trust us. In a couple years you will wonder what the heck took you so long. You will have such clarity when you are away from him and can see your situation more clearly.


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## Erudite

H blocked my internet today but I have managed to get on for a bit. I don't have time to answer a lot of your posts right now but I wanted to post a little of a tirade I receive from H at least 2 or 3 times a week. This isn't the full tirade but you get the gist.

*****

*****, it is obvious you don’t want to be here, either in this house or in this marriage. The bickering is bad for the kids, and it gets irritating. I realize you’re angry at me for something, and what it is essentially is that I no longer just shrug my shoulders at things. When people commit acts that are wrong, sloppy or that I have asked to be done/not be done repeatedly, I don’t brush it off anymore, I call the person to task about it.
Today was a fairly productive day: I shut off the Internet for everyone, including myself, and things got done. Your primary responsibility is and has been caring for home and family; when we started a family, that was what you wanted, along with homeschooling. You also said you wanted a house that we could own, not an apartment or a rental. My primary job was and is to bring in enough money for you to be able to do YOUR job.
I have done my part as best I can. We have never been homeless, or hungry, or without the necessities along with a few extras. I have done my level best, even over the last half-decade of skull-splitting headaches and lack of sleep every single day, to try and find stable, lucrative work. I have stuck with IT not because of an overwhelming love for it (though I do enjoy it), but because in order for you to be at home with the kids I need to make a certain amount of money, and if I were to work as a park ranger or teacher or something I liked better, I wouldn’t make enough.
In the process, I identified a pattern. I would start at a place, put 150% effort into it, and slowly become frustrated with seeing the rest of my family not pulling their weight, or even trying. Eventually I would get to the point where I pretty much said to myself that I wasn’t going to do it anymore until I saw it reciprocated, and the end result would be I either left or was cut. Several times I lost work due to bad luck or a bad fit, but several times it was the aforementioned reason.
I’m not going to lay blame; giving up working because of that reason is not a responsible way to act. Sometime after ***** was born, roughly around the time your mother died, you started to change. You didn’t care about your appearance as much; you didn’t want to do things together or just sit and talk like we used to. It happened slowly, but it happened. You may attribute it to leaving ********, but that is not the cause. The truth of the matter is that I don’t know WHAT the cause is. I am not much different than when we first met, aside from the fact that I no longer brush off things that irk me or are wrong/unfair.
You are at the point now where you do next to nothing all day; the vast majority of your time is spent on the computer. I have kept very careful track of your actions since October, which coincidentally was the last time you said “I love you”. Some days you will do a load of laundry, others you will do dishes, or sweep the kitchen, or some other daily task. These things are part of what should be getting done every day. When I am working, I am typically up no later than 6 AM, and I get home around the same time or later. The bare MINIMUM time you should be spending working on your job(s) is six hours; that is more than enough time for this place to look spotless, for things like bills getting paid, ***** getting some quality time, and the rest of what constitutes your job to be getting done. For example, it takes 5 minutes to whip up a brown bag lunch for me; we both know I am ridiculously easy to please in that department, and yet that has happened five times since June of last year. ****** should be bringing his lunch to school every single day, but instead it is easier to dump money into his account and tell him to get his own, without monitoring exactly what he eats or if he does at all.
The level of caring about these issues that I perceive from you is next to zero. Again, I don’t know why, and I have tried everything I can think of to find out from you what the issue is and how I can help, with no success. The default action you take is to blame me for things. If the house is a disaster, it is because I have too much “stuff”. If I am getting 5 hours of sleep at night on the couch it is because I am up until 4 AM. If my wallet gets washed it is because I didn’t take it out of my pants (even though I was likely going to be wearing them again the next day because they were clean). I never, ever receive an apology from you, nor do you ever admit you are wrong about something. One way or another, it becomes a fault with me: I was “persecuting” you because I complained about your registration being lost twice (the original was in the glove compartment), or I was being a jerk because I asked you not to buy avocados anymore after having thrown away six of the last seven. You won’t even consider addressing the weight issue; I have never once ridiculed you or belittled you about it, and have in fact offered to help in any way possible for over a decade, yet the last time it was discussed, the exact term that was used was that it was “not up for discussion”. The single most important thing that would make me happy, and it just doesn’t matter to you in the least, because to address it would be to admit you had a problem or fault.
It would be easy to go on, but that would be pointless. You are an extremely intelligent woman; you know that these things are facts. You can’t possibly look me in the eye and tell me that you are trying your best, or even trying at all. The **** is a prime example: it started out as all of your big projects do, with you throwing 150% of your effort into it, hitting a single speed bump or slowdown, and dropping it in its tracks.
I would like to say I am sorry I have to broach this in an e-mail, or in a manner that you will certainly see as a personal attack, but the fact of the matter is that I am not. I feel like a fool for letting myself be taken advantage of for so long and not putting my foot down, but better late than never.
You need to make a decision: either you change your approach and attitude to life, myself and our family drastically and quickly, or we go our separate ways. If you want to leave, so be it. I will need a timeframe and your plan in order to make sure things go smoothly. If not, that’s great, but I expect to see a completely different person within DAYS.


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## turnera

Reminds me of my abusive ex-fiance. He told me, after two years of dating, when I was 18 and he was 21 (and a oh-so-important college student while I was a lowly high school student):
"You're just not mature enough for me. It's embarrassing. I'm going to give you 6 months to see if you can grow up and be what I need. If you haven't become mature enough in 6 months, I'm gonna have to break up with you."

Of course I immediately begged and begged and begged. Don't leave me, I'll BE anything you want. 

Thank God I found out a year later that he'd been cheating on me the whole time, and I dumped him.


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## Q tip

turnera said:


> Reminds me of my abusive ex-fiance. He told me, after two years of dating, when I was 18 and he was 21 (and a oh-so-important college student while I was a lowly high school student):
> "You're just not mature enough for me. It's embarrassing. I'm going to give you 6 months to see if you can grow up and be what I need. If you haven't become mature enough in 6 months, I'm gonna have to break up with you."
> 
> Of course I immediately begged and begged and begged. Don't leave me, I'll BE anything you want.
> 
> Thank God I found out a year later that he'd been cheating on me the whole time, and I dumped him.


bet he still has that mentality...


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## Prodigal

The tragedy of this, Erudite, is you posted a huge glob of what HE wrote. It has nothing to do with you. What a waste of time.

I don't give a rat's a$$ what this nut has to say.

And, if you don't realize it, he is about to get physically abusive. He's blocking your internet access. Has he blocked your cell phone access?

He is getting to the point of isolating you.

Lady, if you don't get the he!! outta there in the next 48 hours, I don't know if you will be alive to post here. This man is dangerous, he is feeling threatened, and he is going to do something to make you shut up.

Please ... don't post what he has to say. We are not here to read his rants. We are here to help YOU. 

This is about YOU. Not HIM. Get your freakin' focus off this maniac. 

Because I'm serious here: GET OUT. NOW.


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## Erudite

Prodigal said:


> The tragedy of this, Erudite, is you posted a huge glob of what HE wrote. It has nothing to do with you. What a waste of time.
> 
> I don't give a rat's a$$ what this nut has to say.
> 
> And, if you don't realize it, he is about to get physically abusive. He's blocking your internet access. Has he blocked your cell phone access?
> 
> He is getting to the point of isolating you.
> 
> Lady, if you don't get the he!! outta there in the next 48 hours, I don't know if you will be alive to post here. This man is dangerous, he is feeling threatened, and he is going to do something to make you shut up.
> 
> Please ... don't post what he has to say. We are not here to read his rants. We are here to help YOU.
> 
> This is about YOU. Not HIM. Get your freakin' focus off this maniac.
> 
> Because I'm serious here: GET OUT. NOW.


Thank you , Prodigal. He has done this before. He has never blocked my phone. I have a car to use (even if it does have a lot of issues). He believes if he shuts off the internet I will get more done around the house. The internet is really the least of my worries when it comes to isolation. For a long time I bought my husband's BS as he criticized other people. I believed that he was the smart one and our friends and family weren't worthy of our/his presence in there lives. I took his side on over contentious family issue from both sides of the family. Now I feel like a fool. Everyone tried to tell me what my H was like. I just never listened. I became angry and bitter just like him. I had always been an introvert but the "lessons" I learned from my husband had me isolating myself! *sigh* It got to the point last year that I went on Facebook and told people I was out of a car at the time and to please drop by and visit at anytime. No one came. Who would want to be around me? I sort of viewed at people just not feeling connected to me anymore. Which was my own fault. So when people ask if I have anywhere to go. No. I still have friends and family but I have to make a concerted effort to be with them, and I don't want to impose on them either. My father is elderly and disabled, in laws are busy with their own lives, friends don't have the room.

I posted what H wrote because I have seen many men on TAM write essentially the same thing as my H. I have seen how virulently SAHMs are treated, not just on TAM, but around the internet in general. I never wanted to be that wife that my husband lays out in what I copied over to you. And I wanted you all to see the other side. I see on TAM a lot that most stories are one sided. Now you can judge for yourself if I am to at least partially to blame for what is happening or if I am blowing some of his actions out of proportion because I feel threatened. Enjoli posted above that he won't change because that would mean he has faults, but he has written the same of me. Like I am the narcissistic one. A lot of what he is saying is true. I HAVE "let myself go", I have been depressed, I don't have attention to detail etc etc. 

Prodigal, I am thankful that you are worried for me. It is very touching that a stranger would think so well of my safety, but please do not yell at me. I am doing as Just Tired said. One second, one day, one thing at a time. I NEED a job. And on that note I have a phone interview this afternoon with a furniture store. It is a sales position. I have done it before (a LONG time ago). We will see how it goes.


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## RoseAglow

Erudite said:


> Thank you , Prodigal. He has done this before. He has never blocked my phone. I have a car to use (even if it does have a lot of issues). He believes if he shuts off the internet I will get more done around the house. The internet is really the least of my worries when it comes to isolation.


Hi Erudite! I think you must have strong nerves. You sound so calm as you are writing this. How often does your husband do this kind of controlling, crazy behavior? 



> For a long time I bought my husband's BS as he criticized other people. I believed that he was the smart one and our friends and family weren't worthy of our/his presence in there lives. I took his side on over contentious family issue from both sides of the family. Now I feel like a fool. Everyone tried to tell me what my H was like. I just never listened. I became angry and bitter just like him. I had always been an introvert but the "lessons" I learned from my husband had me isolating myself! *sigh* It got to the point last year that I went on Facebook and told people I was out of a car at the time and to please drop by and visit at anytime. No one came. * Who would want to be around me?* I sort of viewed at people just not feeling connected to me anymore. Which was my own fault. So when people ask if I have anywhere to go. No. I still have friends and family but I have to make a concerted effort to be with them, and I don't want to impose on them either. My father is elderly and disabled, in laws are busy with their own lives, friends don't have the room.


I am sorry to hear this. I really doubt that people didn't want to be around you because of who you are. It is much more likely IME that people are or were uncomfortable about the situation. It is hard to see someone suffering. It is especially hard when the would-be-visitor feels like you are choosing to suffer. 

People had no idea what to say to me when they saw me suffering with my heroin-addicted fiance. My work went to hell and I was on the verge of tears all the time. I wasn't reliable anymore- I had to cancel an expensive conference where people were depending on me because someone had trashed my car and my fiance was hospitalized after being beaten a few blocks away (coincidence? Umm....no....) The obvious answer was to get the hell out! But it's not that easy. And I only had 8 years, not twenty, and no kids....it still took a long time and a lot of pain before I finally did let go. 

If you were very close to any of the friends and family who have become more disconnected, you might consider reaching out and trying to repair the relationships. "I am planning to leave" are magic words, if they disconnected because they didn't like your husband. They might not be able to offer you a room, but they might be able to set you up with an interview, lend you clothes, be on the lookout for a cheap apartment. Your dad might have some funds to lend or be willing to keep you and the kids there for a while, if it means that he knows that you and the grandkids are safe.



> I posted what H wrote because I have seen many men on TAM write essentially the same thing as my H. I have seen how virulently SAHMs are treated, not just on TAM, but around the internet in general.


Well, here I have to point out an uncomfortable truth: many of the men who post this kind of stuff are also divorced. That is probably not a coincidence.

There are plenty of families with SAHMs who are very happy, where the SAHM is respected. jld, SimplyAmorous, frusdil come to mind immediately on TAM. The "SAH" part is not the problem.



> I never wanted to be that wife that my husband lays out in what I copied over to you. And I wanted you all to see the other side. I see on TAM a lot that most stories are one sided. Now you can judge for yourself if I am to at least partially to blame for what is happening or if I am blowing some of his actions out of proportion because I feel threatened. Enjoli posted above that he won't change because that would mean he has faults, but he has written the same of me. Like I am the narcissistic one. A lot of what he is saying is true. I HAVE "let myself go", I have been depressed, I don't have attention to detail etc etc.


It is admirable that you are open to looking at both sides- that shows good character on your end. However, I think it is important to realize and understand that your husband is not a reliable source of information. 

You may have "let yourself go" and I would imagine that HELL YES you are depressed!!!!! (He is not helping to build you up, that is for sure!) So what? 

There are no circumstances where it is OK to speak disrespectfully like that to your spouse. It is not OK to tear down your partner. 



> Prodigal, I am thankful that you are worried for me. It is very touching that a stranger would think so well of my safety, but please do not yell at me. I am doing as Just Tired said. One second, one day, one thing at a time. I NEED a job. And on that note I have a phone interview this afternoon with a furniture store. It is a sales position. I have done it before (a LONG time ago). We will see how it goes.


Erudite, you appear to be a very calm and competent person. I think your world is going to improve so much once you have a job and are out of there. 

Good luck on the interview!


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## turnera

FREE - Lundy Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That" Read Online


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## JustTired

turnera said:


> FREE - Lundy Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That" Read Online


Turnera, Thanks for posting this....I downloaded a copy for myself!


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## JustTired

Erudite said:


> Prodigal, I am thankful that you are worried for me. It is very touching that a stranger would think so well of my safety, but please do not yell at me. I am doing as Just Tired said. One second, one day, one thing at a time. I NEED a job. And on that note I have a phone interview this afternoon with a furniture store. It is a sales position. I have done it before (a LONG time ago). We will see how it goes.


I'm glad you are getting those ducks in a row. You may not get them all together at the same time, but baby steps will definitely get you there. I am proud of you for being so proactive about getting a job, that shows how determined you are.

Take care of you, that way you can handle everything that comes your way. 

(((hugs)))


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## Erudite

> Hi Erudite! I think you must have strong nerves. You sound so calm as you are writing this. How often does your husband do this kind of controlling, crazy behavior?


Hi Rose! Um, I'd say I receive some form of the tirade I just posted a couple of times per week. Lots of divorce threats etc etc. I never really considered H's actions as controlling so much as passive aggressive. And I get a passive aggressive action 1 every other week or so. 

One time I barked at my husband about his medication use (how he wasn't sick in bed, he was strung out for 3 days) and the next thing I know my anti-anxiety medication has been moved on me. He wasn't popping my meds he decided to "teach me a lesson" about bringing up his meds by hiding mine.

Or the time when I asked him to back up the truck on our steep icy driveway so I could get the snow blower out and he backed the truck up into my car and busted the tail light.

The most recent time was when we weren't home when he got home from work (I was bringing kiddo to youth) And I came home to the cable being disconnected. He was mad because I hadn't had time to condense the dinner plates into one and left them on the counter intending to clean up when we got home. He began blasting out our son, for no good reason, so I sent our son to his room and told H to stop being passive aggressive. It was obvious he was mad at me but was bullying our son because he didn't want to say it out right to me. Of course this led into the weekly tirade...

Stuff like that is pretty par for the course.



> People had no idea what to say to me when they saw me suffering with my heroin-addicted fiance. My work went to hell and I was on the verge of tears all the time. I wasn't reliable anymore- I had to cancel an expensive conference where people were depending on me because someone had trashed my car and my fiance was hospitalized after being beaten a few blocks away (coincidence? Umm....no....) The obvious answer was to get the hell out! But it's not that easy. And I only had 8 years, not twenty, and no kids....it still took a long time and a lot of pain before I finally did let go.


I am sorry you had to go through that. I a sorry that a lot of posters in this thread have had to deal with manipulative partners. I can tell when they say LEAVE that they know what they are talking about. Trust me when I say that I hear you and I understand and I am going to. I just don't want to give myself a time table and screw it up. I already let people down. My H, my kids, my friends, family, myself. I feel stuck. I AM moving forward. At the pace of molasses maybe, but still moving forward...


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## turnera

You need to be in therapy, which will help you do it right.


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## Openminded

Keeping my fingers crossed for your job interview!


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## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> I believed that he was the smart one and *our friends and family weren't worthy of our/his presence in there lives*. I took his side on over contentious family issue from both sides of the family. Now I feel like a fool. Everyone tried to tell me what my H was like. I just never listened. Which was my own fault.
> 
> It got to the point last year that I went on Facebook and told people I was out of a car at the time and to please drop by and visit at anytime. No one came.


Your answer is in the first paragraph. You chose to take sides against family. No problem. Your life. Your choice. But when you don't think your friends/family are "worthy" of your presence? You are reaping what you sowed. Don't be surprised. 



Erudite said:


> I posted what H wrote because I have seen many men on TAM write essentially the same thing as my H.


Yes, many men write the same thing on TAM. We read it. What relevance does that have to do with your personal situation? Your situation is unique and personal to you. We don't need to read about someone else. If you husband wants to post, fine. But I don't need further edification on what men on TAM write. I am well aware of it.



Erudite said:


> Prodigal, I am thankful that you are worried for me. It is very touching that a stranger would think so well of my safety, but please do not yell at me.


As we say in Al-Anon, "take what you want and leave the rest." My responses stand. I am not "yelling" at you. What you interpret in my responses is your business, not mine.

I will continue to respond as I choose. MY life. MY choice.

Get a job and get the hell out. This man is a nut. You are codependent. You are stuck. Get a job.

Yelling? Hon, you haven't even come close to what I can do when I "yell." But here is the bottom line: quit being a victim. Own the problems you brought to this mess. Leave his mess for him to own.

Oh, well (shrug), you'll either take it for what it is or you won't. YOUR life. YOUR choice.


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## Erudite

I don't know, Prodigal. That is what I am trying to explain or work through if you will. I just kind of absorbed a lot of negative character traits from my husband or maybe I was always a bit selfish and the relationship exacerbated those qualities? I don't know. I never actually said to myself "I am better than so and so" it was more an attitude. A way of approaching life. Nobody ever confronted me about my attitude or anything. They just distanced themselves from me (which is healthy) vs how I was distancing myself from them (which was unhealthy). How much of the distancing was due to not knowing how to deal with my H to dissatisfaction with my attitude? I am still trying to work through that. The fact that I am an introvert doesn't help much either. So that is what I mean by isolation.

Yes, my situation is unique to me. I WANT to correct faulty thinking. If I am treating my husband unfairly how much of his behavior am I "reaping" as you put it through my own bad behavior? (like I did with my friends) 

On the one hand, this thread has pointed out, nothing I have done justifies the level of his actions. On the other hand I am codependent which does seem to exacerbate these actions. Am I reaping what I sow with my husband? More and more I just feel like negativity feeds on negativity and the only way to break the cycle is to leave.


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## Prodigal

You are very insightful. And I understand trying to sort out what is your responsibility and what is his. It is difficult to do for codependents, because we have such shaky boundaries (or no boundaries at all). 

Believe me, I am the poster child for codependency. The crazier my husband got as his addiction progressed, the crazier I got. I look back on things I did and just shake my head. What the hell was I thinking?

The truth was, I was no longer thinking. I was reacting to the addict in my life. I had to get out or get dragged under with him.

From my own experience, I can tell you that when the pain of staying exceeds the pain of going, you will go.


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## Erudite

Prodigal said:


> You are very insightful. And I understand trying to sort out what is your responsibility and what is his. It is difficult to do for codependents, because we have such shaky boundaries (or no boundaries at all).
> 
> Believe me, I am the poster child for codependency. The crazier my husband got as his addiction progressed, the crazier I got. I look back on things I did and just shake my head. What the hell was I thinking?
> 
> The truth was, I was no longer thinking. I was reacting to the addict in my life. I had to get out or get dragged under with him.
> 
> From my own experience, I can tell you that when the pain of staying exceeds the pain of going, you will go.



I hope you are right. I have read Codependent No More cover to cover a few times now but nothing seems to be sticking with me. I am not getting the "lightbulb" moment and it is frustrating. Is there anything similar?

H is going through a charm phase right now. It is very, very hard not to fall for it. He has been reminiscing about how we met and when he knew I was the one. He has been super "forgiving" about things, saying he might have "played a role", in how things "were" falling apart. How he is going to keep this job "no matter what". How my job was the hardest in the house and the family wouldn't be able to make it without me. Lots of ILYs and compliments....I just can't trust it. On the other hand what if I don't seize the opportunity and I squander a potential turning point? I am allowing myself to be confused for the time being. I am not going to focus on it. Maybe my subconscious will provide answers?

I had the phone interview which was incredible frustrating. The hours of the job are almost impossible to work with. Weekends and two 12 hour days during the week. If H and I were staying together it would not be as much of an issue. If/When we break up I can get day care assistance during the day but who would watch the little guy on the eves and weekends...I have a in person interview. I have a feeling it is tough for them to fill this position due to the hours. I feel like, because of that, if I put on a half decent showing I'd probably get the job but I don't know how to make the hours work.


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## turnera

Try reading The Dance Of Anger. Not exactly on topic but the point of standing up for yourself is the same. Therapists recommend it a lot. 

For the charm phase, just sit down and write out a list of all the things he's done to you. Keep it in your pocket or tape it to the wall so you'll see it every day. Keep that stuff fresh in your head so you can compare it against what he's doing. 

As for the job, when you interview, ask them if they have dealt with anyone else needing daycare and whether they know of solutions or daycare providers that deal with the hours.


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## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> H is going through a charm phase right now. It is very, very hard not to fall for it. He has been reminiscing about how we met and when he knew I was the one. He has been super "forgiving" about things, saying he might have "played a role", in how things "were" falling apart. How he is going to keep this job "no matter what". How my job was the hardest in the house and the family wouldn't be able to make it without me. Lots of ILYs and compliments....I just can't trust it. On the other hand what if I don't seize the opportunity and I squander a potential turning point? I am allowing myself to be confused for the time being. I am not going to focus on it. Maybe my subconscious will provide answers?


It's called manipulation. He wants something, so he turns on the charm. 

I wouldn't consider this a turning point at the moment. Sit back and wait to see how long he keeps this up. 

That's where the codependency comes in. He treats you like crap and you are miserable. He turns on the charm and hooks you into believing he's going to change.

Even though past history indicates he'll revert to being an abusive jerk.

Forget what he says. Watch his actions. And don't be so quick to trust him. He has a history of being untrustworthy.


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## Cynthia

He is the child's father. He watches the child when he is home. It is his parental responsibility. When you are on your 12 hour shift, the child is daycare until your husband is off work and picks him up. You will only need daycare for two days per week and that can come out of your income. In this way, you will not be making much take home pay, but you will be getting work experience and establishing yourself. If/when you separate from your husband, he will be required to help pay for childcare.
If your husband doesn't like it and doesn't want to pick his child up or watch him on weekends without you, that is his problem. Parents who refuse to care for their children end up losing their children.
That is how I've seen it work for others.


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## Erudite

CynthiaDe said:


> He is the child's father. He watches the child when he is home. It is his parental responsibility. When you are on your 12 hour shift, the child is daycare until your husband is off work and picks him up. You will only need daycare for two days per week and that can come out of your income. In this way, you will not be making much take home pay, but you will be getting work experience and establishing yourself. If/when you separate from your husband, he will be required to help pay for childcare.
> If your husband doesn't like it and doesn't want to pick his child up or watch him on weekends without you, that is his problem. Parents who refuse to care for their children end up losing their children.
> That is how I've seen it work for others.



Yes I did consider what you are saying. Part of the reason that my husband and I are often at odds is because he is "sick" all the time, or inordinately tired and therefor sleeping, or having migraines that require the children not to bother him. Which means very little direct supervision on his part He has also been trashing me to the children behind my back. I guess it doesn't matter how I arrange the hours, though, my husband will have to step up. Part of the reason that I want to get a job was to put him in the position to have to step up instead of enabling these counterproductive behaviors he has developed.

On a dour note my car is out of commission. This car has been a source of contention since we got it. In fact, my having a car at all has been a source of contention. Somehow we could never afford a car (due to H's frequent unemployment) unless it was an old car with a host of problems which, of course, becomes expensive as well and calls for frequent trips to the mechanic. H insisted on buying a $600 dollar car (that had been in an accident no less) with flowery promises that we would get a better car once he started working (he was about to start a very well paying job). We would do just enough to get the car inspect-able so that I could get around with the kids (and go on interviews) So far we have already dumped $1000 dollars into it and it is still not inspect-able. In fact H's police involvement is due to this car when he put a stop payment on a check to the mechanic after the mechanic kept the car for a month and wound up doing work that we found was unnecessary, didn't fix one of the main problems, and didn't do work that was required for the inspection (which we had asked them to do previously). So taking it to a different mechanic they say in order to make the car drive-able much less inspect-able, it would need another $1300 worth of work! The car is simply not worth that much! For what we put into the car we could have bought a much better car. 

But unfortunately the marriage once again suffered because husband blames me for having to get that car in the first place. If I had just waited "a little longer" even though he lost that very well paying job in less than a month. I had been very up front with him that this car was a bad bet but he insisted that it was the only one we could afford. I felt like my hands were tied at the time. Accept a sub-par car or be house bound for months on end...again. Plus I really wanted to believe that there was no way he would want to screw this job up because it paid so well. I tell H that he is always making these impulsive , reckless choices because they seem easier in the short term and wind up costing us figuratively and literally in the long term.

*sigh*


----------



## turnera

You'll know you've gotten where you need to be when you stop CARING that he's blaming you.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> You'll know you've gotten where you need to be when you stop CARING that he's blaming you.


I know right? Why is it so hard to do that? I either care because I feel that it is an unfair accusation. Or I care because I think he might be right. I wish I didn't have a heart or feelings sometimes. blech.

I know things are going to keep happening. I'll be able to write a novel  One foot in front of the other I guess.


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## turnera

Try keeping a list in your pocket of all the things he's done to you. When he blames you for something, just pull it out and read it again. You'll come to see he doesn't have any right to be blaming YOU.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> Try keeping a list in your pocket of all the things he's done to you. When he blames you for something, just pull it out and read it again. You'll come to see he doesn't have any right to be blaming YOU.



Isn't that like grudge holding, though?


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## turnera

When your husband has treated you as insufferably as yours had, any counselor would tell you (mine did) that it is a necessity to overcome the soul crushing he has done to you.

You have to find a way to start seeing yourself as an equal, before you can TREAT yourself as an equal. To do that, you have to show yourself what you're really dealing with. Consider this as an education, as 'homework' your therapist would have you do, so that you can make better choices moving forward.


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## Cynthia

turnera said:


> Try keeping a list in your pocket of all the things he's done to you. When he blames you for something, just pull it out and read it again. You'll come to see he doesn't have any right to be blaming YOU.


This solves nothing. He is blaming her for everything, so if she takes out a list, first thing he is going to do is turn it around on her and they are in another argument. It solves absolutely nothing.


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## lucy999

Any updates from your phone interview yet?

ETA: I feel for you and your car situation. And it brought to mind that whenever a partner becomes a liability to you, it's time to cut and run. Your H is a huge liability to you and your family. And I know you're getting your ducks in a row. I just want to say this to you.

In my last relationship, my BF became a HUGE liability to me. We had a domestic incident actually reach the court, I would replace things he regularly destroyed (dishes, tvs, oh the list could go on and on-funny how it was always my stuff, not his), even paid to fix the dent IN MY FIRST BRAND NEW CAR he put on the hood the first 6 months I had it, just typing this out is making me angry all over again. I finally thought, what the hell am I doing? I could have way more money if I kicked his loser ass out. This is ridiculous, I thought. I work way too hard to deal with this anymore!!!

My gist is this: your husband is a huge liability to you. Getting you a crapa** car, legal issues, and lots more.

I hope things gel for you so you can get the hell outta there.

You're right. One foot in front of the other.


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## turnera

CynthiaDe said:


> This solves nothing. He is blaming her for everything, so if she takes out a list, first thing he is going to do is turn it around on her and they are in another argument. It solves absolutely nothing.


You misunderstand me. The list is for her to read, alone, after (or while) he's ranting at/blaming/manipulating/abusing her. To steel herself to stop giving in to his crap. To remind herself that he's a jerk and doesn't DESERVE her being accommodating. It was in response to her saying she can't stop caring about what he says about her.


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## Cynthia

turnera said:


> You misunderstand me. The list is for her to read, alone, after (or while) he's ranting at/blaming/manipulating/abusing her. To steel herself to stop giving in to his crap. To remind herself that he's a jerk and doesn't DESERVE her being accommodating. It was in response to her saying she can't stop caring about what he says about her.


Ah! I can only imagine how it would go over if she read it to him. lol


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## EnjoliWoman

I don't have a lot of empathy for victims and for a few years I was/I was you.

People like Prodigal are merely lighting a fire under you. You need to make a move. Find the anger, find the motivation. Complacency will be the death of you.


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## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> I either care because I feel that it is an unfair accusation.


Then take it for what it is: an unfair accusation. You don't have to "care" about what he thinks. One of the greatest pieces of advice I ever got when I was dealing with my alcoholic husband accusing me of everything short of Original Sin: "What others think of you is really none of your business."

Sure, what he says is unfair. So discount it as unfair. If you know who you are and are secure in that, then to hell what someone else thinks. I lived my life being overly-concerned what everyone thought about me or how they treated me or reacted to me. I was one miserable human being. And I was dancing to everyone else's dance.

But I wasn't dancing to my own tune.



Erudite said:


> Or I care because I think he might be right. I wish I didn't have a heart or feelings sometimes. blech. I know things are going to keep happening. I'll be able to write a novel  One foot in front of the other I guess.


No, he isn't right. You need to learn that what you think you are and who you think you are is RIGHT. NOBODY ELSE HAS THE RIGHT OR CONTROL TO DEFINE YOU. 

You own that. Until you understand that, you are doomed to stay with this loser.

This isn't about him. It's about you. Your problems. Your issues. Your unfinished business. Your life.

If you stay with him, fine. It's no skin off my nose. But if you decide to stay, then learn how to cope with it, and take responsibility for YOUR choice.

Your life. Your choice.


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## turnera

Prodigal said:


> No, he isn't right. You need to learn that what you think you are and who you think you are is RIGHT. NOBODY ELSE HAS THE RIGHT OR CONTROL TO DEFINE YOU.
> 
> You own that. Until you understand that, you are doomed to stay with this loser.


That's why, the list. 

My H has problems with his job; people keep doing him wrong. I keep telling him to send what was done wrong in an email to the owner. His response: boss won't care if this happens. Boss won't care if that happens. My response: but he WILL care if he sees a continuous flow of things done wrong, ad nauseum, one after another, day after day. I can't imagine ANY business owner seeing a long list of mistakes being made without realizing something's really wrong.

Having a list in front of you of all the stuff that's being done wrong to you will keep you grounded on those days when he 'gets to you' with his fake words.


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## Erudite

Thank you all for the input. I am sorry that I come off like a victim. I realize that I am a victim as much from my own choices as I am with him. I will try not to bother you with my concerns in the future on that front. I realize I have soft boundaries and that causes me to over think the obvious. I think some reading and, more importantly, prayer on boundary setting will be helpful.

I had the interview. It seemed to go okay. They will get back to me, one way or another, next week. I think lack of current work history is really hurting me. I have started to brush up on my typing skills, especially the number pad. Thankfully there are a lot of free typing pages. Right now I am at 40wpm but would like to get that higher. Also I want to learn Excel...


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## RoseAglow

Erudite said:


> Thank you all for the input. I am sorry that I come off like a victim. I realize that I am a victim as much from my own choices as I am with him. I will try not to bother you with my concerns in the future on that front. I realize I have soft boundaries and that causes me to over think the obvious. I think some reading and, more importantly, prayer on boundary setting will be helpful.



I think it is fine to post your thoughts even if you come off sounding like a victim. You can use the feedback to re-frame your thoughts. 

For instance, I suggest that you take an understanding tact towards yourself for your past actions. You didn't "victimize" yourself really- you weren't trying to harm yourself, and there wasn't a "more powerful" you pushing around a "less powerful" you, right?

I suspect you were just working with the best you had, the best you knew, yeah? Some of your choices have led to happiness, like the decision to have your kids. Some others have lead to difficult places, like your current work situation, your relationship with your husband. But you are learning like everyone else.* You can become determined to learn more and make better choices.* And I see you trying to do that now: you are reaching out for help, you are willing to try new perspectives, and you are looking for a way out of your current living situation. You are doing it, one step at a time. 

IME one of the most shocking and empowering discoveries from my co-dependent education: the realization that I was seeing myself through everyone else's eyes except my own. I think people are generally taught this as kids and girls are specifically taught this. Be a "Good Girl" means that you made someone else happy, you did what someone else wanted you to do. You only know if you are "good" if someone else tells you, someone else got to make that judgment call. I didn't grow past this rather child-like perspective. Even as an adult, my determination of reality was based on the feedback I was getting from other people. What I smart? Was I successful? Was I worthy or lovable? I looked outside to see how I thought people saw me to get these answers. I based my behavior on what I thought would get me the reaction of other people that I wanted, like "She is responsible! What a capable woman" etc.


This is back-assward, co-dependent thinking. 

Earlier Prodigal said: "*No one else has the right to define you*." This is TRUTH. It is not only your right, it is also YOUR responsibility to define yourself. 

This sounds so small but it was HUGE for me; it changed my life, it is the nugget of gold that I found in my whole experience. It has changed my life, really.

I am writing all this out because I see so much of my co-dependent thinking in your posts. Your first job IMO is to decide that *you are going to take the risk on yourself and YOU are going to make the decisions and judgement calls for YOU.* And this is not only OK, it is proper, it is the correct way forward.

When you list your husband's concerns and say that you want to be fair and consider his complaints- that is good stuff if you have a sane and stable partner. But do you have a sane and stable partner? 

To me and I think the other posters, it appears from your posts that your husband is off the rails. If your posts are accurate, he looks controlling. His behavior towards you as described is unacceptable. We can all see it clearly.

You don't see it as clearly because you still look to him to know who you are. You want to be "fair" and provide his perspective because you don't ever want to be one of "those" wives. You give his complaints weight. 

Once you've begun to be willing to trust yourself, to believe that you have the judgement, capacity, ability to make your own calls, you will feel better about independently determining what, if anything, should be done with your husband's complaints. That is a judgement call. You decide whether he is a safe adviser or an unsafe one. You decide whether it will help you or harm you to take his words to heart. You even have to decide on whether, even if he is right, it will matter to you at all. (Because the more work you do to become empowered to work, to not be dependent on him, the more he is going to kick and scream. You ARE going to be a "bad wife" by his terms. However, his terms are not YOUR terms. YOU might be an amazing wife who will no longer accept the horrible treatment of her husband; you might be the strong wife and mother who is going to get some stability for her family. He might not ever see you as such but YOU define your terms.)

I suspect that when you really think about it objectively and not looking at the question from his eyes, but from your own, that you will be OK with setting his rants, accusations, and complaints aside. You might come to the conclusion that his way had led you to near ruin. You might come to a different conclusion- it is entirely your call. But you are on TAM, making moves, and it looks like you've already actually decided on it; you just need support to keep on going.

I encourage you to continue to seek out support and do all that you can to constantly reinforce within yourself that you are doing the right thing, you are a safe bet, you are a smart woman, you will be able to move forward, you are resourceful, you can do this!

I really like Turnera's idea to keep a list (secret from him!). It is hard to change decades' worth of thinking about someone. It will give you support, it will help you validate your beliefs, especially when he hits the "nice" part in his behavioral cycle.


I will share a strategy that was very helpful for me when I started to break out of my co-dependency. It sounds effin' bonkers but it is VERY effective. ( got it from a book by Barbara De Angelis and a great poem, Love After Love by Derek Walcott):

Talk to yourself (in your head, not out loud unless there is no one around, LOL!) like you would want your best friend, your perfect man, to talk to you. Treat yourself like you would want your perfect man to treat you.

Concrete examples: when you wake up in the morning, think to yourself, Good morning, beautiful! Let's see what we can conquer today! We are going to do some good stuff today!

When you go to sleep: Good night, lovely! 

Throughout the day praise yourself for the things that you are doing right, and be kind to yourself if you think you could have done something better.

Would your perfect guy buy you flowers? Go buy or pick some flowers for your table. 

Do you love baths? Go run a bubble bath once the kids are in bed.

Treat yourself like your own best friend, because ultimately you are actually responsible for yourself, you are your own best friend. 

This is an easy exercise for people who like themselves; it can bring a person who doesn't like themselves to tears. 

But once you are comfortable being kind and caring to yourself and treating yourself like you count and are worthy of love and attention, you will instantly recognize when someone else is just trying to tear you down. You'll see that you and s/he have a great difference of opinion and yours happens to be the one that counts. 




> I had the interview. It seemed to go okay. They will get back to me, one way or another, next week. I think lack of current work history is really hurting me. I have started to brush up on my typing skills, especially the number pad. Thankfully there are a lot of free typing pages. Right now I am at 40wpm but would like to get that higher. Also I want to learn Excel...


Your lack of a recent history isn't helping you, but it won't stop you from getting a job. Just keep putting out applications, keep going on interviews, continue to brush up on your skills. Just keep looking forward and try not to let any rejections get you down.

Hang in there and keep posting!


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> Thank you all for the input. I am sorry that I come off like a victim. I realize that I am a victim as much from my own choices as I am with him. *I will try not to bother you with my concerns in the future on that front*.


Erudite, once you've gotten away from him and started living your life and started loving yourself, you'll realize that this was a passive aggressive comment made to solicit 'oh, no, hon, don't stop posting, we love you.' It's what we do when we NEED the validation but are too sensitive and self-loathing to handle the analysis that comes with the validation. I used to do it all the time, hoping that people would do this exact thing and soothe my ego. But it didn't fix anything.

We're not telling you to stop posting, or stop 'bothering' us. We're volunteering here to guide you just like we guide hundreds of other people because we've been where you are, or because we can see your situation objectively and offer valid advice that can help you move to a better place in your life. Telling you that you're talking like a victim is said so that YOU can recognize it, and thus choose to STOP being the victim and choose healthier options. You've already started by coming here and you're already learning lots. So be proud, ok?

And this is your safe place. If this is the only place you vent, that's fine, that's what it's here for.


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## turnera

RoseAglow said:


> I really like Turnera's idea to keep a list (secret from him!). It is hard to change decades' worth of thinking about someone. It will give you support, it will help you validate your beliefs, especially when he hits the "nice" part in his behavioral cycle.


I think I forgot to say that this advice came from my therapist. She told me it was hard for me to see the truth objectively because of our history together, and that the list would help me see what he's doing the way OTHER people would see what he's doing.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> Erudite, once you've gotten away from him and started living your life and started loving yourself, you'll realize that this was a passive aggressive comment made to solicit 'oh, no, hon, don't stop posting, we love you.' It's what we do when we NEED the validation but are too sensitive and self-loathing to handle the analysis that comes with the validation. I used to do it all the time, hoping that people would do this exact thing and soothe my ego. But it didn't fix anything.
> 
> We're not telling you to stop posting, or stop 'bothering' us. We're volunteering here to guide you just like we guide hundreds of other people because we've been where you are, or because we can see your situation objectively and offer valid advice that can help you move to a better place in your life. Telling you that you're talking like a victim is said so that YOU can recognize it, and thus choose to STOP being the victim and choose healthier options. You've already started by coming here and you're already learning lots. So be proud, ok?
> 
> And this is your safe place. If this is the only place you vent, that's fine, that's what it's here for.


Turnera, I can see how it was passive aggressive although that was the furthest thing from my mind, really. I logically understand everything you all are saying. I didn't realize how much I was trying to please even you guys. It sounded like you all were angry with me for "not getting it" and I didn't want you to be angry with me anymore. I mean, if I can't even please people who are trying to help me it's no wonder I can't do anything else right. I know it sounds crazy, stupid, and illogical. It's the anti-thesis of everything you all are trying to get me to see. I don't know why I did that. It wasn't intentional but now that you pointed it out I can identify the feelings associated with it.

Rose, I feel guilty for taking care of me. I feel guilty if I can't please people. I even feel guilty for feeling guilty! If I take a bubble bath I question myself about how much hot water I am using. If I wear pretty clothes I tell myself it was stupid because I was just going to clean the house. If I look grungy because I am cleaning the house I feel guilty about not looking good for H. I am just not comfortable with any choice I make. I am always second guessing myself. That's why I am frustrated that Codependent No More doesn't seem to help...


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## lucy999

I hope you can learn to love yourself and trust yourself.

You sound alot like me. Always wanting to please, always wanting people to like me, always trying to help others. Those are wonderful traits! But guess what? Notsomuch when it becomes detrimental to YOU.

I'm still working on this issue-it's been ingrained in me since birth. I get it from my mother. 

We can still share these wonderful traits we have with others, but not when we become doormats and ignore loving and trusting ourselves. Sounds hokey, but I swear that for me, it's 100% true.


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## Erudite

lucy999 said:


> I hope you can learn to love yourself and trust yourself.
> 
> You sound alot like me. Always wanting to please, always wanting people to like me, always trying to help others. Those are wonderful traits! But guess what? Notsomuch when it becomes detrimental to YOU.
> 
> I'm still working on this issue-it's been ingrained in me since birth. I get it from my mother.
> 
> We can still share these wonderful traits we have with others, but not when we become doormats and ignore loving and trusting ourselves. Sounds hokey, but I swear that for me, it's 100% true.


It doesn't sound hokey at all. Thank you.


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## Erudite

A few questions for those who left abusive relationships..how many of you left with a "good riddance" attitude and how many of you left before you could "talk yourself out of it"? How much about codependence did you know before you left or was all the clarity gained after you were gone.

Right now when I finally am able to leave I think it will be in the second category by taking the plunge before I can talk myself out of it....I would like to be at the "good riddance" stage before I leave but maybe that is not possible?


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## turnera

Most abuse victims have been SO downgraded by the abuse that they aren't even capable of saying good riddance, because their own self esteem is too low to think they'll be better off without the abuser.

It's only after you've been away from his influence that you can start to see the truth of it.


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## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> ..how many of you left with a "good riddance" attitude and how many of you left before you could "talk yourself out of it"?


No, it wasn't a "good riddance" stance I took when I left. Nor did I need to talk myself out of it.

I loved my husband every single day he was alive; I still love him.

It was a matter of detaching with love, seeing his faults, admitting mine, and realizing that it was stay with him and get crazier or walk and reclaim my life.

But, no, I never stopped loving him. I learned to detach with love.

And I didn't need to talk myself out of it. I walked in September 2009. The economy had tanked big-time. Jobs were scarce. I had no job. I had cancer. I had no health insurance. But I knew it was time regardless of the deck stacked against me. 

By the grace of God go I. Seriously. I could have sat on my rump and prayed until the end of time. But I had to get up and do something and have faith that I would survive.

I did.



Erudite said:


> How much about codependence did you know before you left or was all the clarity gained after you were gone.


I was in Al-Anon and CoDA (Codependents Anonymous) for years before I left. Both programs helped me. 

As far as clarity goes, I'm still gaining it. One day at a time. There is no magic pill or crystal ball or period of time that makes someone no longer codependent. That is something you're stuck with for life.

But working at chipping away at the wrong mindset and expectations makes things better for me. I'll always be codependent. But I have gotten the tools I need to make it manageable.

It's up to you to take care of yourself. It's not pleasant, it hurts, and there are setbacks. 

But today I can honestly say that crap that drove me crazy five years ago doesn't bother me today. What someone else thinks of me isn't my business. And if they have a problem with me, it is THEIR problem.

Again, YOUR life. YOUR choices.


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## Openminded

^^^

(Brief t/j)

You're my hero, Prodigal. And I don't say that lightly.


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> how many of you left with a "good riddance" attitude and how many of you left before you could "talk yourself out of it"? How much about codependence did you know before you left or was all the clarity gained after you were gone.


Mine was a good riddance attitude. The last straw was when he threw a huge candle in glass at me and it hit me square in the eye. (His aim was scary good.) Had to go to work with a black eye. First injury that anyone was able to see. I said, to hell with this I'm done trying to help him. He's embarrassed me. He can take a sh*t and step in it.

I knew all about codependence. It seems so foreign to me now because nothing could be further from the truth, but I didn't want to live alone for the rest of my life. It had nothing to do with love. I hated him. The enemy you know, right?

It's a fine line to walk, but you need to take whatever anger you have and use it to propel you forward. It's what saved me in the end. I hadn't loved him for a long time. It was hatred, anger, and embarrassment that motivated me to get him out of my life. Right or wrong, I don't care. 

I'll reiterate to you-I'm in such a happy place now. I have no more fear and feel such liberation. You will too.


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## Erudite

Welp, of course "the change" was all about sex. He's back to his illnesses, tirades, and recklessness. Which, you all warned me of, of course.

I am disappointed I did not get this job either. And now, with no car, getting to interviews and dropping LO off somewhere is going to be a hassle. But I've got to do it. Somehow. H said he might teach me how to drive his truck this weekend. Maybe I can drive him to work on interview days.

I am getting nervous about his court date which is looming large on the calendar. In some ways I would like him to go to jail for a myriad of reasons not the least of which is being able to hit the reset on the house and finances in terms of state assistance. I would be able to sell what I want, when I want, and how I want without him criticizing me.....on the other hand it puts me under even more pressure to get a job ASAP (which is discouraging after not passing muster on my last two interviews) and would be difficult to explain to my kids...

There are days where I just want to stick my head in the sand..

Prodigal, I would definitely like to detach with love. Any tips on how to do that? What kinds of things did you learn in CoDa.

Lucy, my husband has not hit me. He is just a huge emotional manipulator. Telling me how I make him want to blow his brains out is probably the worst he has ever said. I'd like to say that if he hit me I would be out the door, like you, but given how I haven't left yet, who knows?


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## lucy999

Necessity is the mother of invention. You're getting creative, good for you. I like the idea of you driving H to work while you're interviewing. And I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a bit of glee at the thought of you doing this all in preparation to leave his arse. He teaches you to drive, you use his truck to make a better life for you and the kids. Poetic justice.

I'm sorry about the two interviews. Silver lining-at least you're getting interviews and you're getting great practice!


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> on the other hand it puts me under even more pressure to get a job ASAP (which is discouraging after not passing muster on my last two interviews) and would be difficult to explain to my kids...


Not getting the jobs is not necessarily a reflection on you. There is only one job, but probably many applicants. Take heart. There is a job out there for you.
Regarding telling your children about why your husband is in jail, you can tell them he made a wrong choice and is paying the consequences of that choice.


Erudite said:


> There are days where I just want to stick my head in the sand..


This is normal. You are under a lot of pressure. Keep on plugging. Have you considered starting out at a restaurant as a busser and working to move into a server role? Servers at nice restaurants can easily make over $20 per hour in my town. You might even be able to start as a server in some restaurants. I think in our area, that even servers at Applebee's are making $20 an hour.


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## turnera

When I try to stand up for myself, my H tells me he should just go drive his car off the bridge, since no one really wants him around and we're just using him. When I was younger, I used to fall for it and beg him not to feel that way, which just kept the power in his hands. Now it just makes me hate him.


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## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> Prodigal, I would definitely like to detach with love. Any tips on how to do that? What kinds of things did you learn in CoDa.


First things first. That sounds ridiculously simple, but in A.A. it is a major component towards recovery. Keep it simple is another saying.

You are trying to solve a long-term problem with short-term fixes. You didn't get in this mess overnight, and you will not get out of it overnight.

First, you desperately need a 12-step program. Until, and unless, you work a program you are going nowhere fast. You also need intensive counseling. It IS affordable. The Y gives counseling on a sliding scale, as does county social services.

You and your husband have a dynamic going which both of you have perpetuated. Like it or not, this is familiar to you; granted, painful, but familiar. Until you are willing to walk away from this, you are going to be stuck.

You are asking for advice on how to apply a Band-Aid to a gushing artery. It won't work. 

So, at the risk of making you so sick of hearing it you want to barf, until YOU GET OUT OF THERE YOU ARE GOING TO BE STUCK.

He does not want to change. That dumps it in your lap. Get out or get dragged.

Sorry, but I lived it. I walked. I survived and I'm doing just fine.


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## Erudite

So I need some advice. I have been applying to full time positions and have my resume up on a number of job sites. I just received an email for a part time position that I had not applied for. What are all your thoughts? Should I look into part-time jobs, and go ahead and interview at this place or should I focus solely on full time work given the situation at home?


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## JustTired

Erudite said:


> So I need some advice. I have been applying to full time positions and have my resume up on a number of job sites. I just received an email for a part time position that I had not applied for. What are all your thoughts? Should I look into part-time jobs, and go ahead and interview at this place or should I focus solely on full time work given the situation at home?


Something is better than nothing.....but if it is going to inconvenience you more than helping you, I would pass.


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## Erudite

JustTired said:


> Something is better than nothing.....but if it is going to inconvenience you more than helping you, I would pass.


Well, that's the kicker, the hours for these part time positions tend to be highly irregular every week. I don't mind working shifts that no one else likes as long as it's steady so that I can set up care for the little guy (and who knows H might not be around to pick up the slack.) Urg. :scratchhead:


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## turnera

I've been looking and have talked to several people in the know. They all say it's easier to get a job when you already have one (I was laid off). So if it's convenient, by all means take it until you get something better. But if it causes more problems because of child care and transportation, just explain to them why you can't accept it; you never know, they may come back and offer you the hours you want.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> I've been looking and have talked to several people in the know. They all say it's easier to get a job when you already have one (I was laid off). So if it's convenient, by all means take it until you get something better. But if it causes more problems because of child care and transportation, just explain to them why you can't accept it; you never know, they may come back and offer you the hours you want.


That is a good point, turnera! I always forget that there is room to bargain if you go about it the right way.


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## turnera

I've negotiated on the last 3 jobs I've had and gotten more vacation or higher pay. One guy who contacted me this week tried to offer a job at $33/hr, and at final negotiation, I told him I wouldn't take less than $45/hour, so that's what he put me in for. 

And on my H's job, we just found out that, while he had come to that company agreeing to get his commission check upon final completion and last installment payment of the project, the other people are getting their commission check when the customer signs the contract! 

So yes, it is all in the negotiation.


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## Prodigal

I don't want to be the voice of doom and gloom here, but when I left my husband, I had not worked in several years. I approached getting a job as a full-time job. I started networking through the county's social service agency for jobless people. I went to job fairs. I went into stores in person to apply. 

My first job after I left my husband - and I graduated from college with honors - was working at a Chik-fil-A in a mall food court for $9.50 an hour.

I managed an office of 60 people, and here I was wearing a yukky uniform with a silly hat. And smiling at people who had tantrums because I gave them chocolate rather than vanilla ice cream.

It was hot, dirty, and demeaning to work with early 20-somethings whose vocabulary consisted of endless "like" and "you know." Ugh. But I worked. Then I needed chemo, so I told the franchise owner I'd have to inconvenience him by going on medical leave. He wasn't thrilled and I didn't care.

Then it took me another TWO years to get a full-time job. But I went out there and fought hard. Back on the East Coast, almost every job required a bachelor's degree to be an admin. assistant. After all, the workplace is flooded with unemployed college grads.

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to try retail. The hours change every week, but if you can stand on your feet and don't mind long hours during Christmas, it might be for you. I don't know your educational background, but retail might be the ticket to start generating an income. 

Those online sites? I tried several and ended up with squat. Monster.com has about a kazillion people out there fighting for one position. I also got bombarded with emails to sign up for truck driver's school.


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## EnjoliWoman

And then there are the opposite stories - I applied to a blind PO box add, applied through temp agencies and also applied for a position that an old coworker told me about - turned out I applied for the same job 3 different ways! And I got the job. And I"m still here, three promotions later.

Temp agencies are great - if your skills aren't perfect you can do temp receptionist jobs and work on typing things until you get faster. As to excel, search for online tutorials that are free OR often temp agencies have tutorials they will let you come in and work through to improve your skills. I got all of my PC skills that way and then just learned on the job as the programs changed and updated.


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## turnera

Yeah, I've gotten a ton of requests for contractor positions. It's a decent way to start working again. Look up the temp agencies, also called staffing agencies.


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## Erudite

Well the jobs I am looking at are minimum high school diploma so it's not like I am looking for a job requiring a BA or holding out for huge money. I didn't know that temp agencies sometimes offer training...that is something I will have to look at.

Any tips for battling frustration with H while all of this is going on? As with about every aspect of our life Ebay is a source of contention in our household. Just an example he has decided to finally sell his massive game collection (by massive I mean it takes up a whole room in our basement)...or rather, he has decided that I should sell off this collection now that he is back at work. (When he was unemployed he didn't want to sell it even though we could have used the money desperately). He wants me to do everything from take the pictures, to do the description, calculate the shipping options, set up the auction, take payment etc etc. which is fine, since I'd be doing something similar if I was working. The problem is that he is critical of how I handle each step of the process, like he is my boss not husband, and he undoes hours of work that I put into it because he decided at the last minute that he didn't want to sell the particular item I decided to auction. He has actually ended auctions that to me hours to put together! To add to the frustration all this gaming stuff is upstairs because he had to "go through it" and it's hampering my ability to clean properly...

I keep telling myself to "keep going" but I feel like I'm running up a down escalator. I seriously need to get off this ride!


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> Any tips for battling frustration with H while all of this is going on? As with about every aspect of our life Ebay is a source of contention in our household. Just an example he has decided to finally sell his massive game collection (by massive I mean it takes up a whole room in our basement)...or rather, he has decided that I should sell off this collection now that he is back at work.


Yes, here's a tip. Start using the word no. And I'm not being flip or disrespectful. Tell him no and don't discuss it again. He likes to be Charles in Charge so guess what? He can do it. 

Because more than likely, he'll keep all that cash for himself. Am I right about that? Sure, it's his collection and I get that, but if he had anyone else do it, he'd have to pay them for their time organizing this huge project.


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## Erudite

lucy999 said:


> Yes, here's a tip. Start using the word no. And I'm not being flip or disrespectful. Tell him no and don't discuss it again. He likes to be Charles in Charge so guess what? He can do it.
> 
> Because more than likely, he'll keep all that cash for himself. Am I right about that? Sure, it's his collection and I get that, but if he had anyone else do it, he'd have to pay them for their time organizing this huge project.


H is one of those he says one thing and does another. For instance he'll SAY "My money is your money, I trust you not to spend frivolously" but as soon as I spend an extra dollar on grapes at the grocery store he rushes in to take charge. He nit picks all my purchases to one degree or another. Or he makes an impulse purchase then gets all cranky about the upkeep and cost associated with it. (chickens, yes, he bought chickens without my consent and now flips out over the cost of mealworms/feed/litter) We have joint accounts. If I make a withdrawal he will "innocently" ask me if I made the withdrawal or purchase just so he can be sure no one is hacking into account. Very passive aggressive.

I need to try tunera's boundary setting technique on this issue. I will explain to him calmly that I put a lot of effort into the ebay auctions. That I feel like all my work was wasted. If he wants these things sold by me then he can no longer criticize me, that he needs to remove anything that he wants to keep, and once it is listed he is no longer allowed to make changes or remove the auction. I will explain to him that if he wants to work together he can have more of a say, but if I am expected to do the work by myself, then he needs to back off. The first time he criticizes me I will not post anything for a week, the next time 2 weeks, if he critcizes me or sabotages all my hard work I will not sell anything at all...

Is that the adult way to say it? I just feel like the kids are going to suffer with the loss of this money if I don't agree to do it and put up with H's bull...

ETA: At least Charles was lovable and fair! LOL


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## Cynthia

You could tell him that if he wants you to sell this stuff that you are in charge of the entire operation. He will not have access to the passwords and will not be able to interfere. If he doesn’t like that, then you can’t do it.
As far as him criticizing your purchases, tell him that you are a big girl and can make proper decisions and are tired of listening to him criticizing you, so you will no longer listen to his nit picking. Don’t discuss it with him. He will simply find a way to turn it back on you.


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## turnera

"I'm going to sell the stuff but the first time you tell me what I'm doing wrong, I'm quitting. So if you want it done, learn to bite your tongue."


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## Cynthia

If you do something that makes you feel uncomfortable, you are going against your own conscience. This is unhealthy for you, your husband, and your children. If he asks you to do something that makes you uncomfortable, it is right for you to tell him no. It is right for you to set healthy boundaries that are comfortable for you.


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## Prodigal

turnera said:


> "I'm going to sell the stuff but the first time you tell me what I'm doing wrong, I'm quitting. So if you want it done, learn to bite your tongue."


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

This is setting a boundary for what YOU find acceptable and unacceptable. He has you scared, which is why he's manipulating you and, quite frankly, being an abusive bully.

I'd tell this guy to pound sand. Seriously.


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## Erudite

Soooo I have been gone a while now. Here is an update for anyone interested. I now have a car. A crappy one, mind you, that isn't worth the money that has been put into it but it is something for now. I have a part time job with incredibly low pay with the option to pick up more hours as needed, which it looks like will be soon since my husband just ANOTHER job. This one lasted five and a half months. (took him 3 days to tell me) DS went back to school this year and little DS is also in school part time as well. Husband had the check charges against him dropped but now has filed to sue a lady (a coworker from his last job) without my knowledge. I only found out about it, how absurd, because there was a letter from one of the TV judges asking if he wanted to come on the show! *sigh*


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## turnera

Great. Now you can start saving up money so you can move out and dump this loser. The longer you stay with him, the worse YOU look.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> Great. Now you can start saving up money so you can move out and dump this loser. The longer you stay with him, the worse YOU look.


Before I can save money I have apply for benefits. H isn't working, again, so I am going to qualify for something. We are going to lose health insurance so that will be a priority. Tunera I already feel like a chump. I went to stay with my father. My older son refused to come with me but I took little DS. I took out half the money in the account to fix my car, which was dead, and went to the courthouse with my aunt. It was raining and I did something dumb. I called him. I caved. What an idiot I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

If you keep caving, your family is going to stop helping you eventually.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> If you keep caving, your family is going to stop helping you eventually.


I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucy999

Excellent progress on the job and car!!!! 

Ugh. I got a visceral reaction when I read your H lost another job. 

What are your immediate plans re: your h?


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## Erudite

lucy999 said:


> Excellent progress on the job and car!!!!
> 
> Ugh. I got a visceral reaction when I read your H lost another job.
> 
> What are your immediate plans re: your h?


How do you mean? Day to day dealings or the overall picture? Day to day we are less than room mates at this point. It is incredibly lonely and I have become hyper vigilant...always waiting for the next catastrophe. As you probably read I attempted to leave him but called him and caved. The worst of that was that I didn't even cave over false promises. I caved over the same stuff that has been driving me crazy for the last several years. I sat in the car at the doorstep of the court house with rain streaming down the windows like God was crying because he knew that I was going to make the wrong choice and caved anyway! Staying at my dad's was no picnic. He is on a fixed income and we were sleeping on the couch and I was missing my other son and I just...caved. Thinking about it afterwards I felt like a chump. I realized that I was lacking discipline. I need to set things up so that I have no choice but to do what needs to be done. I couldn't sit at home waiting for a catastrophe to clean up, or soothing bruised egos (I sucked at this anyway) I might as well work, cuz the catastrophes will happen whether I am there or not. I have to learn to adapt to H's shenanigans without letting it interfere with my goals. When I have to count on him to watch the kids I do it in a way that is convenient and comfortable for me rather than him. When I started working I deliberately chose days and hours that limited how much time I had to interact with him so as to limit the antagonism. I communicate as briefly as possible. I exercise for stress relief (like hell I am going to let him drive me to medication again!) I am angry that he lost another job for only 3 reasons, insurance, my car needing repairs, and him spending more time at home. I no longer worry if the mortgage is getting paid. We will either foreclose or not. I'll deal with it if and when it happens. I assume always that he is lying to me and I never trust promises of self employment or him commanding six figure salaries in the near future. I don't even care why he loses his jobs anymore other than to to remind myself how ridiculous the situations he gets himself into are. My only thought is "will they give me extra hours at work " and "how can I juggle the kids' schedules". When I find out that he loaned some bimbo at work several hundred dollars, while my care needed repairs, (he sued her for not paying him back and was invited to apear on reality TV) I find myself thinking how to creatively use my employee discount to set money aside and I have started developing my own personal budget. I have already started planning on how I can either leverage this job into the field I want to get into. I talk regularly with friends and have a coffee date a couple of time a month with friends as well. I really want to stay as busy as possible not just to build my self esteem but to limit contact with him and have as much of my own life as possible.


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## turnera

You could be doing all that alone. And not wasting your hard-earned money on a guy that gives nothing back.


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## Cynthia

You are beating yourself up over something that is now over. So you caved. People do it all the time. Now you look forward and keep working to become stronger. You are doing better than you were, so you are making progress and that's a good thing. It shows that you are going to get yourself out of this situation. It just won't happen overnight.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> You could be doing all that alone. And not wasting your hard-earned money on a guy that gives nothing back.


Yes I know. I think about that a lot. Especially as I am gathering to apply for benefits. 

Thanks, Cynthia, I think I am just petrified of living in a shelter because at this point that is my only long term solution. It would be months, before I could save up money to get my own place and I would still have to receive housing benefits. Minimum rents for a two bedroom apt in my area are 1000+ per month usually with a months security deposit. It's easier to feel guilty over stuff about myself that "if I only changed" that are more doable than that. The thought terrifies me.


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## lucy999

I think you've made good progress. Rome wasn't built in a day. Soldier on, one foot in front of the other. Continue to work on getting free for good.


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## Erudite

lucy999 said:


> I think you've made good progress. Rome wasn't built in a day. Soldier on, one foot in front of the other. Continue to work on getting free for good.


Thank you, Lucy. I have made a lot of changes. I have come to the realization that it does not matter how I change it's just an excuse for him to continue his destructiveness. No matter the boundaries I set up he will test them or smash them or retaliate. For instance I told my husband that I did not want to go to his cousins wedding because I was worried that H would back out at the last minute. He said fine, he would go without me but I was still required to rsvp for him and put his clothes together. I did these things for him, he took the day off work, then...didn't go. He tells me it's because he is not close to his cousins and tells my son that he did it so I wouldn't be embarrassed by my weight gain (even though I wasn't going! LOL) That's three people he manged to screw over in one fell swoop. His cousin, his boss, and me. (four if you count that he was trash talking me to my son.) You just can't plan this stuff.


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## RoseAglow

CynthiaDe said:


> You are beating yourself up over something that is now over. So you caved. People do it all the time. Now you look forward and keep working to become stronger. You are doing better than you were, so you are making progress and that's a good thing. It shows that you are going to get yourself out of this situation. It just won't happen overnight.


:iagree:

What you found out is, you need more support when you make your next away. You didn't have enough support structure around you on your last attempt. One failure doesn't define you, you just "fail forward" and learn something to bolster your next attempt. 

Have you spoken with anyone from a women's shelter? There may be other options that you don't know about, like rent subsidies. They might be the support that can help you next time you leave, so that you have someone else to call. 

You're making concrete steps- just keep going. Keep your eye on the prize.


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> Yes I know. I think about that a lot. Especially as I am gathering to apply for benefits.
> 
> Thanks, Cynthia, I think I am just petrified of living in a shelter because at this point that is my only long term solution. It would be months, before I could save up money to get my own place and I would still have to receive housing benefits. Minimum rents for a two bedroom apt in my area are 1000+ per month usually with a months security deposit. It's easier to feel guilty over stuff about myself that "if I only changed" that are more doable than that. The thought terrifies me.


Surely there are single old ladies out there who have an empty house who would love to rent a room to a newly free woman like you for very little money ... and who would probably end up being a very dear friend.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> Surely there are single old ladies out there who have an empty house who would love to rent a room to a newly free woman like you for very little money ... and who would probably end up being a very dear friend.


Maybe if it was just me that might be an option, but with the kids, probably not so much.

I look at H's to do list for the day. Number one. Call sheriff. Call sheriff for what? Do I really care? Number two. File unemployment. Number three. Sue xyz at the district court. Number four: Fix wife's car. 

I know number four is not happening. He took issue with my tone of voice. How I demand things of him now instead of asking him politely. I demanded that he get out of the bathroom instead of playing video games sitting on the loo. And I demanded that he move his truck so that I could take DS to preschool. Silly me. He said that he was done with me and that I should make plans to leave. I do believe I rolled my eyes at him and told him to get over himself.


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## turnera

What social services have you looked into for helping you move?


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> What social services have you looked into for helping you move?


To be honest, nothing yet. Now would be the time to do it since he isn't working. The problem I was running into before was that since I am still married most places would take his income into account. So the only way to get benefits would be to leave, but I couldn't leave without benefits. I'll be honest finances are a big reason I haven't left. He has always managed food in the house and a roof over the head and utilities paid. Also there is a lot of resentment. This is my home too. He has no right to tell me to leave or kick me out all the time. Blech.


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## turnera

WHAT finances?

Just tell the people you're talking to that he is out of the picture.

Period.

Done.

Eligible for benefits.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> WHAT finances?
> 
> Just tell the people you're talking to that he is out of the picture.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Done.
> 
> Eligible for benefits.


I am still living with him so income counts. Or so I am told.I really need to face to face with someone who deals with this type of situation. I can't be the only one can I?


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> I am still living with him so income counts. Or so I am told.


Only if you are bringing him with you!

But you aren't!

You're trying to get help for surviving WITHOUT him!


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## Erudite

Feeling very bitter today. Yesterday I felt good. Today not strong at all. Envious of some of my friends. Feeling lower than dirt. Almost 40 and nothing to show for it. My kids are great, I know, but I am really lost. My big dream used to be to go abroad to Venice and London with a happy husband and kids eager to learn. Now my big dream is to divorce my H and keep my kids happy and healthy with a roof over their heads. Foolish hopes, lost beauty, empty heart...and no husband to confide my insecurities to. I know that woe is me attitudes are unattractive and not productive I just can't seem to stop myself from going there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> Feeling very bitter today. Yesterday I felt good. Today not strong at all. Envious of some of my friends. Feeling lower than dirt. Almost 40 and nothing to show for it. My kids are great, I know, but I am really lost. My big dream used to be to go abroad to Venice and London with a happy husband and kids eager to learn. Now my big dream is to divorce my H and keep my kids happy and healthy with a roof over their heads. Foolish hopes, lost beauty, empty heart...and no husband to confide my insecurities to. I know that woe is me attitudes are unattractive and not productive I just can't seem to stop myself from going there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are couple of things that help me to not go down into the pit. One is that when my thoughts begin to focus on the negative and on all sorts of terrible scenarios, I refocus my attention onto a matter at hand. For example, focus on what you need to do to make things better. Think about what advice you would give someone you love who was in your situation, then follow it. When you start sinking down, refocus on what you are doing to make things better and act on that.


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## aine

Erudite said:


> Feeling very bitter today. Yesterday I felt good. Today not strong at all. Envious of some of my friends. Feeling lower than dirt. Almost 40 and nothing to show for it. My kids are great, I know, but I am really lost. My big dream used to be to go abroad to Venice and London with a happy husband and kids eager to learn. Now my big dream is to divorce my H and keep my kids happy and healthy with a roof over their heads. Foolish hopes, lost beauty, empty heart...and no husband to confide my insecurities to. I know that woe is me attitudes are unattractive and not productive I just can't seem to stop myself from going there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Erudite, is it possible to go to some Women's aid organisation for advice on how to get away from your H and support your kids at the same time? Wouldn't your H still have to support the kids anyway as long as he is working, even if you divorce him?
Get yourself a lawyer (using Legal aid if necessary to see what steps you can take), having no money of your own is not an excuse not to to take action. Are you still looking for a job?


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> Feeling very bitter today. Yesterday I felt good. Today not strong at all. Envious of some of my friends. Feeling lower than dirt. Almost 40 and nothing to show for it. My kids are great, I know, but I am really lost. My big dream used to be to go abroad to Venice and London with a happy husband and kids eager to learn. Now my big dream is to divorce my H and keep my kids happy and healthy with a roof over their heads. Foolish hopes, lost beauty, empty heart...and no husband to confide my insecurities to. I know that woe is me attitudes are unattractive and not productive I just can't seem to stop myself from going there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the kind of stuff to work out in therapy.

btw, if you have unfulfilled dreams, by all means, GO FOR THEM!

You only have one life.


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## Erudite

aine said:


> Erudite, is it possible to go to some Women's aid organisation for advice on how to get away from your H and support your kids at the same time? Wouldn't your H still have to support the kids anyway as long as he is working, even if you divorce him?
> Get yourself a lawyer (using Legal aid if necessary to see what steps you can take), having no money of your own is not an excuse not to to take action. Are you still looking for a job?


It's either a shelter or time to save. I can spare my kids going to a shelter at least. Yes I have a job. No my husband is not working. When we divorce he will be even more unreliable than he is now both monetarily and child care wise.




turnera said:


> This is the kind of stuff to work out in therapy.
> 
> btw, if you have unfulfilled dreams, by all means, GO FOR THEM!
> 
> You only have one life.


Nothing to work out with a therapist. I am a failure.

Cynthia I do take it day by day. I just kind of feel zombie like. I want to be happy for more than a few hours at a time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Then do it for your kids. No child should grow up with a mother who thinks like that.

And what you're describing, what you're saying, is 100% depression. FOR YOUR CHILDREN, you need to ask your doctor about getting on a mild dose of antidepressants. Before it gets worse and you can't take care of them.


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## Cynthia

You can stop thinking of yourself as a failure. If this was your child saying and thinking like this, you wouldn't agree with them, you would tell them to look up and move forward. We all make mistakes, but the sum of our lives is not one big failure unless we do not care for others and only seek our own. You love your children and are seeking what is best for them. That is not failure. Let your children be the thing that keeps you moving in a better direction.
Rather than dwelling on what is wrong and what could go wrong, make a plan and focus on carrying it out.


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## Erudite

I am not going to stop doing what I am doing (I am in a much better place than when I started this thread) I have strong days, too busy to think days, building friendship days, thankful to have a foot back in the work place, but some days I just feel like I wasted life, you know? I feel like I have let everyone down, including H sometimes. I still move on because of the kids it's just a huge effort of will some days. I am trying the fake it til you feel it method. Right now I am just faking it. And I really need a hug, darn it, from someone over the age of 20. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> I am not going to stop doing what I am doing (I am in a much better place than when I started this thread) I have strong days, too busy to think days, building friendship days, thankful to have a foot back in the work place, but some days I just feel like I wasted life, you know? I feel like I have let everyone down, including H sometimes. I still move on because of the kids it's just a huge effort of will some days. I am trying the fake it til you feel it method. Right now I am just faking it. And I really need a hug, darn it, from someone over the age of 20.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fake it until you make it is much better than giving up, so you are on the right track. I'd give you a hug, but there is a screen in the way. {{{hugs to you}}} I hope you get real hug soon.


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## Erudite

Bit of a sticky wicket here. H went through my wallet and found the business card of the women's shelter. He didn't confront me with it he just left it on top of my wallet. I am really nervous. He hasn't spoken with me and if I am assertive over something he gets angry and silent treatments me. Should I ignore the fact that he saw this? Or should I confront him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

No, do NOT confront him. You'll be free of him soon enough. Who cares what he does, that he goes through your stuff? You won't have that problem because he won't be around, right?

That said, DO be on extra high alert and have a bag packed just in case.


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## Erudite

I guess I thought, in the back of my head maybe, just maybe, it would jolt him that I am thinking this way and he would be nicer and less reckless. I am afraid though that he will look at it as she has one foot out the door and he becomes worse. I don't even care that he rifled my stuff. I really don't have anything to hide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> Bit of a sticky wicket here. H went through my wallet and found the business card of the women's shelter. He didn't confront me with it he just left it on top of my wallet. I am really nervous. He hasn't spoken with me and if I am assertive over something he gets angry and silent treatments me. Should I ignore the fact that he saw this? Or should I confront him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No need to worry. All he knows is that you have a card. He doesn't have any other information, so anything he thinks is merely speculation. Do not make too much of it, but be aware that he on the alert.
It is easy to get all worried and feel "found out," but this is unlikely to have any impact unless you let it freak you out and you get defensive. Take some good breaths in through your nose and out through your mouth. Think of some of the good things in your life and focus on those things. Listening to some music that lifts your moods and read something short and sweet, like poetry. I love to read children's poetry. There are some terrific books available and the poems are short and sweet.


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## JohnA

If this helps:

Until the third grade (when I moved) I was the neighborhood whipping boy. I had three things going for me, family, no brain - hence no pain, and finally no desire to listen. 

But it did leave me a different prespective. When a person like your H starts in, my first reaction is why, the second is what is the validity of the comments, what can I do if true, and finally do I want to do something about it.

Bottom line from what you say I get - he is a loser who is scared to death you will better yourself and leave him in the dust. Any misstep he will pounce and say- see you are a loser no better then me.

As to the mis-steps, for me no brain- remember? for you ????


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## Erudite

CynthiaDe said:


> No need to worry. All he knows is that you have a card. He doesn't have any other information, so anything he thinks is merely speculation. Do not make too much of it, but be aware that he on the alert.
> It is easy to get all worried and feel "found out," but this is unlikely to have any impact unless you let it freak you out and you get defensive. Take some good breaths in through your nose and out through your mouth. Think of some of the good things in your life and focus on those things. Listening to some music that lifts your moods and read something short and sweet, like poetry. I love to read children's poetry. There are some terrific books available and the poems are short and sweet.


 thanks tunera and Cynthia I agree with your thoughts. I hate biting my tongue. I feel like I am itching for an argument. But it's not worth the emotional toll.



JohnA said:


> If this helps:
> 
> Until the third grade (when I moved) I was the neighborhood whipping boy. I had three things going for me, family, no brain - hence no pain, and finally no desire to listen.
> 
> But it did leave me a different prespective. When a person like your H starts in, my first reaction is why, the second is what is the validity of the comments, what can I do if true, and finally do I want to do something about it.
> 
> Bottom line from what you say I get - he is a loser who is scared to death you will better yourself and leave him in the dust. Any misstep he will pounce and say- see you are a loser no better then me.
> 
> As to the mis-steps, for me no brain- remember? for you ????


Well, John, you are the first male perspective I have had. H zeros in on my insecurities and simultaneously downplays the absurdities in his own life. He thinks I am JEALOUS of his success/abilities (both of which are highly circumspect) if anything he acts as if I am deliberately being dumb/ignorant because I don't fall down at his feet or believe his exaggerations or lies. He doesn't have faults (although he will work overtime telling you he's made great personal changes). I stopped trying to figure him out a while ago.😐
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA

So we agree as to his nature. Don't spend time responding. You know his game, don't beat it - IGNORE IT. Just be prepared for it, and let him fail.


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## Erudite

Be on high alert, ignore him, don't confront...rinse and repeat. I am always on high alert, I ignore as much as I can, and I avoid confrontation like the plague. It is a very very lonely place to be. I do get together with friends every other week or so. I socialize at work as well. But I won't lie. I miss snuggling on the couch, sharing coffee on the porch, sitting on the hood of the car and watching the stars, spooning in bed at night. I miss that. A lot.


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## turnera

Well, you're leaving him, right? 

Right?

So this is just a temporary phase of your life and once you are free of him (and get therapy so you don't just pick the same guy next time), you'll start filling your life with healthy, fun, rewarding interactions with other people.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> Well, you're leaving him, right?
> 
> Right?
> 
> So this is just a temporary phase of your life and once you are free of him (and get therapy so you don't just pick the same guy next time), you'll start filling your life with healthy, fun, rewarding interactions with other people.


I am at the "who would want me" stage right now. Another relationship is not even on the radar for when I am alone.:crying:


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## turnera

And that's fine. NOT having someone to cuddle and spoon with can be a very healthy stage of your life, very empowering, very enlightening, very important. And it looks like you really really need it. I hate going to therapy. I cry nearly every single time I go, so it's like going to the dentist, knowing you're getting a cavity filled. But it's important, so you go.

The bonus, however, is that once you go THROUGH that stage, get the therapy, learn that you can make your own self happy all by yourself...you get to the critical point of seeing that you don't NEED a man beside you to be ok with yourself, to find happiness, to enjoy your life.

And once you have reached THAT stage, you can then go back out into the world and meet men, ditch the *********s, keep seeing the good ones, and finally start having a real, healthy, fulfilling relationship. I often tell people to look at this part of your life as the "Masters Degree" part of your life - a couple of years of intense hard work, daunting, scary even, but not so long that you feel hopeless, and short enough that while you work through it, you can SEE the pot of gold at the end waiting for you.

My DD25 went away for college, while few of her friends did (and only two graduated). She learned to be ok on her own, to take care of herself, to not need a guy for her identity. Basically, she grew up and became a confident, fulfilled person. So that when she met her current boyfriend a year ago, she held her own. She knows her worth, she takes no crap, but she also devotes herself fully to him, so he's getting a good deal, too.

All her friends who stayed home 'for the boyfriend' or whatnot...not a single one of them is doing what they would like to be doing. Because they were all too afraid to be 'alone' and felt that not having a boyfriend was too shameful (or whatever) to overcome. They are all miserable. Or broke. Or raising kids on their own cos the guy left anyway.

That's what I want for you.  (the former, not the latter!)


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> I am at the "who would want me" stage right now. Another relationship is not even on the radar for when I am alone.:crying:


I wish I could travel this road for you, I really do. I completely understand where you're at. 

I'm rooting for you. I wish you could see life as I see it now. It's so completely different and beautiful. I hope you can get there.

Sending you much love today.


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> Be on high alert, ignore him, don't confront...rinse and repeat. I am always on high alert, I ignore as much as I can, and I avoid confrontation like the plague. It is a very very lonely place to be. I do get together with friends every other week or so. I socialize at work as well. But I won't lie. I miss snuggling on the couch, sharing coffee on the porch, sitting on the hood of the car and watching the stars, spooning in bed at night. I miss that. A lot.


The only thing I would say is to back off of "high alert." He may be on high alert, but you don't have to be there with him. All it is does is contribute to nerves. Find a place of peace and calm.
Here's a fun poem:

The Moon, by Robert Lewis Stevenson

The moon has a face like the clock in the hall;
She shines on thieves on the garden wall,
On streets and fields and harbour quays,
And birdies asleep in the forks of the trees.

The squalling cat and the squeaking mouse,
The howling dog by the door of the house,
The bat that lies in bed at noon,
All love to be out by the light of the moon.

But all of the things that belong to the day
Cuddle to sleep to be out of her way;
And flowers and children close their eyes
Till up in the morning the sun shall rise.


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## Erudite

Thank you all so much for your kind words. I very much appreciate them. I notice I get more emotional when I am tired. Usually first thing in the morning. It's so hard to do anything positive or be upbeat because H is around all. The. Time. I think he is trying to catch me in an affair. I have been dressing up more often (for a mood lift) and H will say something like "you look pretty today. Are you seeing someone?" I thought he was just joking but he has said it several times now. Plus when he rifled my wallet he took my DS's sign in card for school. It's a blank card with a bar code (obviously so no one can kidnap him from school) but, just speculation on my part, H probably thinks it's a hotel key card. I don't know why else he would take it, not mention it, and then leave it it by my wallet as an obvious sign that he took it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Because he's a coward and POS. Stop analyzing why he does what he does.

Move on.


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## Erudite

Lol I guess it's the high alert mentality. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> Thank you all so much for your kind words. I very much appreciate them. I notice I get more emotional when I am tired. Usually first thing in the morning. It's so hard to do anything positive or be upbeat because H is around all. The. Time. I think he is trying to catch me in an affair. I have been dressing up more often (for a mood lift) and H will say something like "you look pretty today. Are you seeing someone?" I thought he was just joking but he has said it several times now. Plus when he rifled my wallet he took my DS's sign in card for school. It's a blank card with a bar code (obviously so no one can kidnap him from school) but, just speculation on my part, H probably thinks it's a hotel key card. I don't know why else he would take it, not mention it, and then leave it it by my wallet as an obvious sign that he took it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do not know what he is thinking and you don't need to. Work a plan and stick to it. If he says you look pretty, say "thank you" and smile. Ignore the jab about seeing someone. He is probably anxious or nervous that you might be having an affair, based on what he's said. Many people would think that, but you know the truth. It's okay if he doesn't understand. What matters is that you focus on your personal responsibilities and keep moving forward as best as you can. Try not to worry so much about him and his responses.


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## turnera

btw, most abusers think their partners are going to cheat on them because the reason a person BECOMES an abuser is that they have low self worth and believe the only way to keep a person WITH them is to tamp them down hard enough that they won't look around at other potential partners.


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## Erudite

If that is the case though why does he stay with me? When he works he is more than capable of affording this place on his own. He says he finds me unattractive and my housekeeping skills are awful. I am not affectionate or funny. I am staying because I can't afford to go. What is his excuse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Abusers pick one person, usually, and focus on controlling that one person because they subconsciously believe THEY are unlovable, so their only hope at having a 'normal' relationship is to keep that person from leaving them, once they've been selected.


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> If that is the case though why does he stay with me? When he works he is more than capable of affording this place on his own. He says he finds me unattractive and my housekeeping skills are awful. I am not affectionate or funny. I am staying because I can't afford to go. What is his excuse?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is all over the place. One minute you are unattractive, the next you are pretty and must be seeing someone. Obviously he thinks you could find someone else.



Erudite said:


> H will say something like "you look pretty today. Are you seeing someone?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your husband is dysfunctional. Trying to figure him out isn't going to do you any good. His emotions are all over the place. Focus on taking care of your own issues. Let him live with his issues. Don't believe what he says, because it changes from moment to moment. He is a mixed up man. You don't need to be sucked into his vortex of confusion. Step away from the drama and make your own world for you and your children.


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## Erudite

Unfortunately the drama is only escalating. Since H has stopped working the house is twenty times the disaster than when I was keeping it up by myself. He has told my elder DS that I only went to work to escape chores and thatnow I see what it was like for him and if I don't like it do something about it. I feel this white hot anger every time I think about him. I cry out of sheer frustration. Yesterday I only said "*****, I am going to work." When I got "home" I sat in the bathroom and cried. Then made a light dinner, did some chores, put the little one to bed, and went to sleep. H leaves me a note about what to eat and how he will clean a mess (ha!) and to please wake him up at 10.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Come on, you know what to do. Ignore him, pat yourself on the back that you're moving on from this horrible mess, and think about your future when you don't have to deal with this nonsense.


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## Erudite

I feel like I have made some progress in that I don't think I am responsible for his behavior any more. Now it's just anger. And I won't say anything to him about this either as it would be completely non productive.


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> I feel like I have made some progress in that I don't think I am responsible for his behavior any more. Now it's just anger. And I won't say anything to him about this either as it would be completely non productive.


What you are feeling is normal. As time goes by, you can learn to let go of the anger. Maybe your husband will even get sick of not having any of his own money and living in a constant mess.
Why did he want you to wake him up at 10:00?
Can you refresh my memory of how old your children are?
It's okay to cry.
How do you know your husband told your son that you went to work to avoid chores? What was your response?
You don't want your children in the middle and you don't want to bash your husband to them. It is good for them to understand what is going on though, in terms of the reason you went to work is that you need to bring money in to support the family.
Do you have your own bank account, without your husband's name, where you put all of your paycheck?


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## Erudite

Cynthia I have a middle schooler and a preschooler. I am afraid that I did put my eldest in the middle this morning. My husband left another mess all over the kitchen floor, then I went outside and saw that animals got into the garbage because my husband didn't go to the dump (because he has to sort the garbage and make sure that I didn't throw good items out so they closed before he could make another trip) and I flipped out. A bit by saying to my son that I was tired of all these messes. That's when my son said that if it was bothering me why didn't I do something about it. Which is, of course something his father would say.

I knew then that my H had been talking to S behind my back. Again. There was a lot of my trying to justify myself after that then my son said "dad thinks you are working at a ****** to get out of doing chores." To which I just lost it and said I am working at ******* to spend as little time with your father as possible. It was the wrong thing to say I know I just hate hearing H's words come out of his mouth. I even explained that to S after apologizing and S said talking to me that way was the only way to get me to do what needs to be done.

H wants me to get him up at 10 because...well damned if I know. He stays up until 3 in the morning working on " the business ". He is adult and I refuse to be his alarm clock...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> It was the wrong thing to say I know I just hate hearing H's words come out of his mouth. I even explained that to S after apologizing and S said talking to me that way was the only way to get me to do what needs to be done.


Are you saying that your son told you that the only way HE can get you to do what needs done is for HIM to talk to you that way? Or was he voicing his dad's opinion?


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> Are you saying that your son told you that the only way HE can get you to do what needs done is for HIM to talk to you that way? Or was he voicing his dad's opinion?


I told my son that he speaks to me sometimes (not all the time just in tense situations) the same way that his father does. He responded that talking that way is the only way I listen. I certainly took it to mean that I deserved to be put down whenever the situation called for it. (i.e. get me to back off) He wasn't saying his dad said that I deserved it (that's not H's MO. H is passive aggressive. He wouldn't SAY it he would just punish and say "see"?)

And just now I (wrongfully) engaged in a game of tit for tat with H. Our elderly cat piddles where she is not supposed to. She has become very picky about her litter in her old age. Husband complained. I said (echoing his words to our S) if it bothers you so much why don't you change the litter. (he has changed it once in the last 6 months) Sure, he says, I'll add it to my list. I should be blaming you and (S) for not cleaning it up. Meanwhile he starts a list of his accomplishments.."put away mayo that was left on the counter at 10:57"

I can see that I am perpetuating the disfunction. I know that I am no better than he is at this point. Why do I do it?!?!??!?!


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## turnera

Because your brain has been hardwired that way and has to be retrained. Keep a rubber band on your wrist and if you find yourself about to engage, thwack yourself good and hard. 

Re: your son...it scares me. You only have a short amount of time left to influence him, to keep him from turning into a mini-me of his dad. He needs to hear from you how disappointing it is that he is becoming 'that' person. Trust me, words mean A LOT to preteens and teens. A lot of who they become and what they believe comes directly from things YOU say to them. I've watched my DD25 repeat stuff I've said 10 years ago, except now it's her belief, and she has no idea she has it because I said it first. Very eery.

Do you watch the new show Fear The Walking Dead? It's about the beginning of the zombie apocalypse, in LA, how it first starts happening, nobody realizes what it is, until it's too late. Anyway, the main characters are a family with a teenage boy who's a drug addict. They go into military-imposed lockdown. Well, he can't get his drugs anymore, so he's detoxing. Until he sees his grandpa get sick and this nurse brings him in a morphine drip; well, guess what he does: you see the old man in the bed, and then it pans down to underneath the bed where the kid is lying, and the kid has taken his morphine drip and stuck it between his toes, and he's getting high. 

Well, the nurse comes back the next day and is looking everyone over, and she realizes that the kid is high, and the mom finds out. I tell you this because I thought of you and your son. She goes into his room and he gives her some flip attitude about it, and she's SO ashamed of him, how bad he's become that he could do something so disgraceful, and she just starts wailing on him, slapping him and punching his arms and slapping him some more, and he's just cowering in the corner. It was heart-wrenching to watch, and I was thinking well at least finally, MAYBE, it will wake him up out of being such a self-centered ass, to see the shame he's brought on to his own mother.

So anyway I thought of that show when you said what your son said to you. He needs to hear how he's disappointing you. Not in a 'you're an ass' way, but in a 'wow, I can't believe I'm watching you turn into this' way.

JMHO


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## EnjoliWoman

I am afraid that your son will be just like your ex if you don't LEAVE NOW. 

So WHAT if you have to go to a shelter? I did. I told my 4y/o it was a cheap hotel because I couldn't afford much and at this hotel you had to share chores. I'm sure her Dad told her or she figured it out when she got older - I don't know, she's never mentioned it. 

When you are angry, channel it. Instead of lashing out, let it propel you forward. You said "loo" - are you in the US? If so, United Family Services offers counseling on a sliding scale based on income. I went and took my daughter often. It was a life saver. My assigned counselor at the shelter told me. 

There are all kinds of ministries and services which the people at shelters know about. They can get you an apartment, furniture, etc. You mentioned you felt sometimes like HE should move, not you - but you don't want the old memories. You need to make some new ones.

And you need to stop your oldest from turning into his father or you will loose him, too. Because he's already starting to look down on you, believe his Dad and react accordingly. Why isn't the son cleaning the litter box? Or sorting the trash? Haul it away yourself. If he'd wanted it sorted he would have done it by now. He's not employed so he has 40 hours he can use to do chores. You do not.

IF there is a next time, don't engage. He WANTS to get a rise out of you because he wants attention and to feel important.


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## Erudite

EnjoliWoman said:


> I am afraid that your son will be just like your ex if you don't LEAVE NOW.
> 
> So WHAT if you have to go to a shelter? I did. I told my 4y/o it was a cheap hotel because I couldn't afford much and at this hotel you had to share chores. I'm sure her Dad told her or she figured it out when she got older - I don't know, she's never mentioned it.
> 
> When you are angry, channel it. Instead of lashing out, let it propel you forward. You said "loo" - are you in the US? If so, United Family Services offers counseling on a sliding scale based on income. I went and took my daughter often. It was a life saver. My assigned counselor at the shelter told me.
> 
> There are all kinds of ministries and services which the people at shelters know about. They can get you an apartment, furniture, etc. You mentioned you felt sometimes like HE should move, not you - but you don't want the old memories. You need to make some new ones.
> 
> And you need to stop your oldest from turning into his father or you will loose him, too. Because he's already starting to look down on you, believe his Dad and react accordingly. Why isn't the son cleaning the litter box? Or sorting the trash? Haul it away yourself. If he'd wanted it sorted he would have done it by now. He's not employed so he has 40 hours he can use to do chores. You do not.
> 
> IF there is a next time, don't engage. He WANTS to get a rise out of you because he wants attention and to feel important.


Here's the things with my son. HE is generally a very very good boy. He is extremely helpful around the house. He does take out the trash. He does scoop litter. He keeps his grades up. Does chores with little to no complaint. In fact fact his father abuses his good naturedness. Makes my son do virtually everything that my husband himself should be responsible for. Now my son is a teen and should be learning to do these things with an adult over seeing him. Like oil changes, running the mower sink, fixing the sink, building a chicken coop etc etc. Instead my husband says "go do xyz" and then goes to play on the computer or a less demanding chore. Makes my son do all the snow shoveling, raking etc. I help him as a I can because my husband won't. When I left for my dad's for a few days my eldest refused to leave with me. I'm paraphrasing but he said "Come home soon. Just apologize to Dad, do what he says, and give him a hug and he'll forgive you." But he will also spoil my son with cash and expensive gifts.

As to my H not working and doing chores. He starts a project, leaves it half finished in whatever room he's working in, then moves into a different room or part of the yard. And it's all his stuff. I could go on a rant but I'm sure you've seen all this before.

As to a shelter, I know everyone says so what but I just can't. I think it would rip away every last ounce of dignity I have in one fell swoop. My kids don't want to leave their dad, home, or schools. I just can't do it. Emotionally I am not there.


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## EnjoliWoman

Home is were the heart is. The heart there is broken. Home is where you feel safe and happy - you don't.

That is a house. One that you very well may loose anyway. Stop holding on to the dream - time to wake up.

YOU ARE THE ADULT. You tell them where they will be living, they don't tell you! I'm glad your son is helpful but there's no need for him to please Dad's case - likely he's trying to avoid being caught in the middle and he will need some skills to navigate that so counseling is a must. There are diplomatic ways to tell your son what's going on without bashing his Dad and ways to keep him out of the middle and a counselor will help with that, too. 

Go to the shelter and talk to them. Or ask your Dad for a loan for a deposit on an apartment and a moving truck rental. Call utilities and have them transferred. Dad won't be able to afford extravagant gifts for long. He's unemployed! He'll have to pay child support.

Tell some friends and get help moving. And MOVE.


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## EnjoliWoman

PS - I didn't loose my dignity in a shelter. I lost it way before that by letting my husband call me stupid, complain about my weight and criticize everything I did. I got my dignity BACK in a shelter by sending the message that I won't take it any more.


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## Erudite

Please don't think that I am criticizing those who have gone to a shelter. It takes a lot of strength and the misery must be too great to endure at home. Right now, as I said before, I feel like a failure and a shelter is not an option, for me, right now. I do have the card to use, just in case, even though H knows about it now. I keep thinking I am prepared for the nexr crisis or drama but clearly I am not.


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## lucy999

EnjoliWoman said:


> PS - I didn't loose my dignity in a shelter. I lost it way before that by letting my husband call me stupid, complain about my weight and criticize everything I did. I got my dignity BACK in a shelter by sending the message that I won't take it any more.


Man I wish I could 'like' this post a gazillion times.

Truer words have never been spoken.


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> I told my son that he speaks to me sometimes (not all the time just in tense situations) the same way that his father does. He responded that talking that way is the only way I listen.


Erudite, I hate to say this, but your son has already turned into your H. The above chilled me to the bone. I'm scared for your son.


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> My kids don't want to leave their dad, home, or schools. I just can't do it. Emotionally I am not there.


So...in other words, you're never going to move out because your kids 'don't want to leave their dad.'


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## Erudite

lucy999 said:


> Erudite, I hate to say this, but your son has already turned into your H. The above chilled me to the bone. I'm scared for your son.


The thing of it is I DON'T listen. My son knows exactly what kind of relationship my H and I have. He asked me today if I hated H. I must hate him to be so angry with him. (I redirected btw) So if my son knows that H's behavior is like his dad's and that it has had net negative on his life what is there to emulate? I have no doubt that I could have expensive gifts etc myself if I would just learn to kiss up :x to his dad. It's the narcissism thing. I even pointed that out to him. I said "If what your father is doing was right why aren't we happy together?" I pointed out that I am the one who brings him to youth group, takes him to and from school, meets his teachers, monitors his grades, goes to school functions, sets up doctors appts, buys his clothes, makes his lunch. Things I do not do for his dad and that his dad does not do for him. Why don't I do these things for his dad but do do them for him? Because his dad has let me down and made me feel worthless.


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## Satya

lucy999 said:


> Man I wish I could 'like' this post a gazillion times.
> 
> Truer words have never been spoken.


I've never been in such a situation myself, but after volunteering at shelters, I heartily agree.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> So...in other words, you're never going to move out because your kids 'don't want to leave their dad.'


I think that is a bit harsh. I do want to leave, and will, when I can manage to do it without a shelter. Just a few months ago I wasn't even working. Now I am. I am reconnecting with friends and family. My life, with help from support I receive here, is much better. I do have awful days, even weeks, where I wonder what the hell I'm doing. My mother tried to commit suicide when I was fourteen, and rolled three cars on dui when I was young. She never left my dad. We moved many times due to my father losing employment. Maybe I was raised to suck it up (clearly I do a p*** poor job of it). I don't know. I do know that if my mom had tried to take me from my dad I would have hated her even more. I don't want to run that risk with my kids. They are all I have now.


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## turnera

Yes, but it was your MOTHER who was harming you. So it would make sense for you to not want HER to take you from your DAD. Semantics as to which of your parents was the most harmful.

This is faulty abuse victim language. "My kids will hate me if I take them from their abusive dad because, well, he's right, I'm a piece of sh*t, and they would rather be with HIM than ME. So if I just stay put, they'll at least TOLERATE me until they move out. Cos they sure as hell won't want to be with ME, you know, since I'M the defective one."

Now, I don't think you really believe that on the surface. But in the subconscious? You betcha.

I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to get you to BE HONEST with yourself. About what you can and can't do. Now. So that if you can recognize your own personal pitfalls, you can address them head on, now, so that that victim brainwashing (as written above) can be torn apart with logic (and therapy) and won't keep you from doing what you need to do.

And fwiw, YOU said it, not me ("My kids don't want to leave their dad. I can't do it.") It's a legitimate question, after what you said.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> Yes, but it was your MOTHER who was harming you. So it would make sense for you to not want HER to take you from your DAD. Semantics as to which of your parents was the most harmful.
> 
> This is faulty abuse victim language. "My kids will hate me if I take them from their abusive dad because, well, he's right, I'm a piece of sh*t, and they would rather be with HIM than ME. So if I just stay put, they'll at least TOLERATE me until they move out. Cos they sure as hell won't want to be with ME, you know, since I'M the defective one."
> 
> Now, I don't think you really believe that on the surface. But in the subconscious? You betcha.
> 
> I'm not trying to hurt you. I'm trying to get you to BE HONEST with yourself. About what you can and can't do. Now. So that if you can recognize your own personal pitfalls, you can address them head on, now, so that that victim brainwashing (as written above) can be torn apart with logic (and therapy) and won't keep you from doing what you need to do.
> 
> And fwiw, YOU said it, not me ("My kids don't want to leave their dad. I can't do it.") It's a legitimate question, after what you said.


There's a lot of that thinking already, to be honest. But true or not I am not ready now. Some people have to leave before they can build their self esteem others have to build their self esteem before they can leave. I think I am wise to his games for the most part, my kids have a support network outside the home (I have contacted my son's school counselor who only reports good things) and I am working a plan (although slow and fluid) Other than leave right this very minute I don't know what else to do to, or who else to ask, when I run into obstacles with H. It is not my intention to wait until both my children are grown before leaving. Also this came up in the context of my child being like H hence why I mentioned them specifically when talking about the shelter.

I know that none of you really know me, as a person, and so I might mistake your posts as people championing a cause rather than support my decisions or intuition. Trust me I get a lack of support from H on a daily basis so I could definitely be misreading intent.


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## turnera

My deal, so you know, is to help people avoid 'avoiding conflict' like I did the first 25 years of my marriage. In misery. I know all too well how easy it is to just...NOT do anything. I don't want anyone else to waste their whole lives out of fear of moving forward. And I know from experience that those who tried to help me on forums by being nice and commiserating and saying 'you poor thing'...didn't really do anything to get me to want to be stronger. The ones who pushed me, questioned my actions, even made me feel dumb for not moving forward...those are the ones who stuck with me, and gave me strength. I may not be as nice as they were, lol, but I hope the intention outweighs the brusqueness.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> My deal, so you know, is to help people avoid 'avoiding conflict' like I did the first 25 years of my marriage. In misery. I know all too well how easy it is to just...NOT do anything. I don't want anyone else to waste their whole lives out of fear of moving forward. And I know from experience that those who tried to help me on forums by being nice and commiserating and saying 'you poor thing'...didn't really do anything to get me to want to be stronger. The ones who pushed me, questioned my actions, even made me feel dumb for not moving forward...those are the ones who stuck with me, and gave me strength. I may not be as nice as they were, lol, but I hope the intention outweighs the brusqueness.


No I know that. Truly. And I DO appreciate it. And if I were counseling a friend who was "ignoring" my advice I would get just as brusque. It is hard to hear, though, from H I am stupid for one thing or another and then hear from other people that I am stupid for being with H. So when I am feeling worthless that just makes me feel more worthless. Does that make sense? I AM going to leave but it is not going to be so quick. I was always the kid that peeled the band-aid off slowly. Also he has kept me questioning myself and perceptions that when I mention something that happened I really need people to be honest. I ALWAYS think I am overreacting to things even when, logically, I know that what is happening is really awful. It's like my brain short circuits. When I am angry things are clearer, but one simply can't stay angry forever, and that's when things become murky. It's hard for me to think that people would think that I am worthwhile. I just don't have a lot going for me. I do love my kids, madly, crazily but after that what? I have no idea who or what I am anymore. I am trying to figure that out.


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## turnera

I don't think you're stupid for being with him.

Only for staying with him. 

Now, if we were to check in with you in two more years and you were still there...THEN I'd be pretty ticked off at you.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> I don't think you're stupid for being with him.
> 
> Only for staying with him.
> 
> Now, if we were to check in with you in two more years and you were still there...THEN I'd be pretty ticked off at you.


LOL I will remember that. So...remember the thing where I said I didn't know who I am right now? Here is the situation at work. Right now I only get enough hours to cover my son's school and a few bills (barely). I have the option to be trained for a specialized position at my work. All expenses paid. It would up my hours and it would up my pay once I took the final test and passed. The only stipulation is that I must stay with the company for a minimum of 3 years after I pass my exam. Of course they can waive the right to hire me at that position (but why would they if they are paying for my ed?)

So there are a lot of benefits to taking this offer. Free education! Practically guaranteed work for the foreseeable future. Higher pay grade. Stupidly good health benefits package for full time employees. (part time employees get squat). Possible stepping stone to even higher paying positions in that field (but at my own expense) Many locations country wide to transfer to should I leave H and strike out on my own.

Cons: Not really what I want to do with my life. (I know more about what I dont want than what I do want) I already spent over a decade letting other people decide what I want to be. This would feel like back sliding. Highly HIGHLY stressful position. Mistakes could be very costly. Pay grade is not THAT much higher. Oh and H would likely try to abuse my position and make things difficult. Any thoughts? 

Right now I hesitantly want to take this but am waffling. It just feels scary.


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## EnjoliWoman

turnera said:


> My deal, so you know, is to help people avoid 'avoiding conflict' like I did the first 25 years of my marriage. In misery. I know all too well how easy it is to just...NOT do anything. I don't want anyone else to waste their whole lives out of fear of moving forward. And I know from experience that those who tried to help me on forums by being nice and commiserating and saying 'you poor thing'...didn't really do anything to get me to want to be stronger. The ones who pushed me, questioned my actions, even made me feel dumb for not moving forward...those are the ones who stuck with me, and gave me strength. I may not be as nice as they were, lol, but I hope the intention outweighs the brusqueness.


And MY deal is to help women who are in abusive relationships (verbal, physical, emotional) get out of their situation AND help with the legal (no, not in the field - typical disclaimer here) and custody situations. 

If you have time, read my story in my link. Married at 20 to a man 12 years older who swept me off my feet only to be gradually torn down and ostracized. I was told to keep things private and to not share "our business" - well, because he was abusive! I kept it private too long and that secrecy gave strength and credit to what he was doing behind closed doors. When I opened that door and started seeking support, that was when the healing began. 

And I admit I stayed 3 years after I decided to leave. I was a SAHM and needed a job so I told ex (self employed after on/off employment) that we needed benefits (we did!) and got a job but it was on a contract basis so I held off for it to become permanent, which took TWO YEARS. Only to have that pulled out from under me. There I was in a shelter with no job. I signed up with 5-6 temp agencies to keep working and needed my parent's help to get a place to live. 

He vowed to ruin my life "like I ruined his" but instead I found a job I LOVED and am still here 11 years later. When a door shut, a window opened. I cleaned up my credit from all of his bad decisions and foolishness, including a tax lien. I own a home now and my credit is excellent. He tried to alienate my daughter but she is 16 and sees right through him now. I had to enlist the help of counselors, my family and friends and finally petition the courts for a psychological evaluation for parental fitness to keep him from getting custody and ruining her, which was when I got his diagnosis. Having that information was a complete game changer - legally, yes, but mostly for me. Now I understand why he did or said the things he did and I learned how to deal with him (when necessary only and in writing!)

I wish I had left sooner. Instead I waited for everything to fall into place to be the perfect time to leave. There is no perfect time. The sooner you can start over, the sooner you'll be in a happy, contented place.

I'm still single but I've had several relationships, all of which were MUCH healthier and when they weren't right for me, I ended them. I'm still friendly with the men I had a serious relationship. As time passes, I can see example after example where FINALLY I'm NOT the stupid/inept/crazy one.

I want that for you. It takes time.


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## turnera

Erudite, the education sounds great, and it's possible that a stable job is simply the most important thing for you right now and that, 3 years from now, you can start looking to fulfill the other parts of your life. If you didn't have kids, I'd say to just leave and go find yourself. Because you do have kids, I would tell you to take the training deal. I got laid off in February, I'm HIGHLY trained and respected in my field, yet I am only just NOW getting a job - and a part-time, temporary one at that. 

Jobs just aren't the same as they were even a decade ago. Three out of four of the hundreds of jobs I've applied for these past seven months have been contract - i.e. no benefits, pay your own taxes. And now that I'm working again, my insurance will no longer be subsidized and it's going to go from $670/month I have to pay to $1500/month. 

So, for right now, the responsible thing to do is take the offer. The insurance alone is a valid reason to take it. Three years will fly by, trust me. And then you'll have stability with which you can launch the rest of your life into what you really want. Plus, it will give you the time, in a stable environment, to sit back, relax, make plans to move out, and start contemplating what it is you really want out of life. And hopefully be moved out in the next year, and THEN, when you're away from the toxicity and can hear yourself think without worrying about what's going to upset 'him' next, you'll be able to start hearing your own voice. 

Please trust me that the being out of that house is going to have a PROFOUND effect on you; after you've been gone 6 months to a year, you'll be kicking yourself for waiting so long.


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## EnjoliWoman

I agree with Turnera. Right now you need a steady, good income to get a leg up. Benefits are huge and you might want some regular counseling which would be covered. Besides, it will be YOUR turn to spoil your kids!  

Although you say the job will be stressful, I think you'll find that WITHOUT the stress and constant berating from your H, THIS stress will be manageable and in handling this job and the stress that comes with it, you will gain a HUGE amount of self confidence! HUGE! Three years is a small amount of time. You put up with this awful situation from your H for MUCH longer; three years of less-than-dream-job is a piece of cake.


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> But true or not I am not ready now.
> I know that none of you really know me, as a person, and so I might mistake your posts as people championing a cause rather than support my decisions or intuition. Trust me I get a lack of support from H on a daily basis so I could definitely be misreading intent.


Your thinking is quite astute. My goal is to share 'my story' with others in the same situation-being in an abusive relationship. I'm hopeful something, anything, I say will click with that person. I'm hopeful they'll say, hey! I never thought of it like that before.

I totally understand you're not ready. BTDT. I'm not championing a cause; I'm championing you and the life you could have without your abusive H.

I've said it before and I'll say it again-Oh how I wish you could see your life without your H. Oh how I wish I could've seen my life now when I was in that abusive 12-year relationship. 

I'll also reiterate that I have SO MUCH regret, SO MUCH self-loathing, SO MUCH anger. Why didn't I leave much sooner? Why did I try to help that fool? Whhyyyyy?

So that's my agenda. :grin2:

Take the position!!! It's easier to find the job of your dreams while you're employed. The fact that they have so much faith in you, willing to pay for your training, willing to invest in you, speaks volumes. Go for it!!!! The mandatory 3 years will fly by, trust me. And the stress you'll experience from the job will be a totally different animal than the stress you're dealing with at home.


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## alphaomega

You're already enticed with the proposition of "maybe this job will take the stress off your husband and he will get better or calm down". I can read it between the lines. 

Faulty logic there, sister. Other than the theft and drugs, emotionally I was your husband. Or rather, lack of mature development in my emotions. 

You're not going to change him. Things might get better. For maybe a week. Until you do something that annoys him. Could be anything, like putting a spoon in the fork slot in your cutlery drawer. 

Because that was me. I would continue to break down your spirit even further. Nothing was good enough. And I'd have you thinking it was all your problem anyways. Because you'd be so worried about trying to keep the peace, trying to make normal, that you'd convince yourself it was all you, eventually. 

He won't change. He can't change. Not unless he has a come to jebezzus moment. And it doesn't seem like that's going to happen anytime soon. 

Dissociate yourself from his entanglement. It is a hard process, and is a thousand times harder while still living there. But it can be done. Once you do that, you'll have clarity of mind to see the forest path from above...not surrounded by thick bushes and brambles while your stuck in the middle of it.


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## Erudite

alphaomega said:


> You're already enticed with the proposition of "maybe this job will take the stress off your husband and he will get better or calm down". I can read it between the lines.
> 
> Faulty logic there, sister. Other than the theft and drugs, emotionally I was your husband. Or rather, lack of mature development in my emotions.
> 
> You're not going to change him. Things might get better. For maybe a week. Until you do something that annoys him. Could be anything, like putting a spoon in the fork slot in your cutlery drawer.
> 
> Because that was me. I would continue to break down your spirit even further. Nothing was good enough. And I'd have you thinking it was all your problem anyways. Because you'd be so worried about trying to keep the peace, trying to make normal, that you'd convince yourself it was all you, eventually.
> 
> He won't change. He can't change. Not unless he has a come to jebezzus moment. And it doesn't seem like that's going to happen anytime soon.
> 
> Dissociate yourself from his entanglement. It is a hard process, and is a thousand times harder while still living there. But it can be done. Once you do that, you'll have clarity of mind to see the forest path from above...not surrounded by thick bushes and brambles while your stuck in the middle of it.


Huh, I didn't think I was thinking like that. I will be honest when I first thought of going back to work those types of thoughts did, indeed, cross my mind. I did think, "I know I don't make much but it will pay for all the "extras" and he can't harp on me about frivolous spending anymore." Of course I was wrong. I get paid every other week and it is my custom to cash the check rather than deposit it in our joint account. He got very upset with me for doing that but I was worried that he would do something with it that was not "in my plan" as it were. He says it should be "our money" like his paycheck (when he has one) is "our money". It still is "our money" in that I spend it on things for our children/house hold necessities (I am not doing anything nefarious with it) and maybe save a little if I can towards leaving/moving. Basically with my own check I don't worry about paying for things that I used to worry about paying for (like DS preschool) I know that H won't change for the long haul. That is why I am pursuing a more rigorous job load now. I did it "his way" part/time nights and weekends but his attitude never changed. It was an excuse to a)control me and b)passive aggressively show me how I have done him wrong all these years. So I think, I hope, that you are wrong in my current thought processes. 

I think you all would have been proud of me. I made dinner but H did not eat. I loaded the dishwasher and left a bowl of food for him on the stove. I then proceeded to go to bed. H barges into the room and asks if I am going to sleep. I say yes. He says what about the food on the stove? I say what about it? He says you left a big mess for me to clean up! I said good night and rolled over. During the whole encounter I was thinking do not engage, do not engage, do not engage. He later accused me of "not wanting to address our problems". *sigh* To which I told him that such conversations are unproductive and I refuse to participate in them.


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## turnera

lol, a bowl of food is a big mess? Proof positive that he LIES to intimidate you. Good job on ignoring him and what you stated!

Question, though. Was that 'later' later on in the night? Did he keep you up or wake you up to discuss it? If so, if he has a habit of doing that, if you have a spare room to sleep in, buy a new doorknob set with a lock, install it (really easy), and lock the door when you go to sleep.



> It was an excuse to a)control me and b)passive aggressively show me how I have done him wrong all these years.


Don't forget keep you from leaving him. That's the #1 reason they do it.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> lol, a bowl of food is a big mess? Proof positive that he LIES to intimidate you. Good job on ignoring him and what you stated!
> 
> Question, though. Was that 'later' later on in the night? Did he keep you up or wake you up to discuss it? If so, if he has a habit of doing that, if you have a spare room to sleep in, buy a new doorknob set with a lock, install it (really easy), and lock the door when you go to sleep.
> 
> Don't forget keep you from leaving him. That's the #1 reason they do it.


Full honesty I usually do the dishes and wipe down all the counters right before bed each night. This particular night I did the dishes but was really tired so I left the counters until morning. Perhaps the counter's lack of sparkliness was the "big mess" he was talking about? I don't know. H has a habit of ignoring when food is ready. Usually I just put a plate in the fridge for him. This time I left it on the stove and less than pristine counters. Maybe that was the "big mess"? I had wanted to go off on him about all the messes he leaves for me on a daily basis (really gross ones no less) but didn't. 

As to the barging in thing. Picking a fight at night is rare but he will daily ignore me all night to play games or "do chores" or "work on the business" and then when I go to bed find an excuse to to come in and wake me up. Or he waits until 3 o'clock in the morning to come to bed, knowing full well that it will wake me up because I am light sleeper. I am in bed no later than ten and sometimes as early as nine. Sometimes I get lucky and he will sleep on the couch.

ETA: Later meant in the morning.


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## Erudite

Well today royally sucked!!!!! I made a nasty comment to H before leaving the house for work (in response to assertion that he was going to live in a van while working in Florida for a month. While at work I find that my dad is in the hospital/rehab, I need to check on my elderly aunt, and that my best friends mother (who was like a second mother to me growing up) died after a long bout of dementia. Then I come home to no light on outside, tripping over the junk my husband left all over the drive. Go inside to a nasty note basically stating he gives up, I win, and a disgusting sink full of grease and broken glass and salad clippings which I spent a half an hour cleaning. I am exhausted and grieving and I just can't handle this. How do I handle this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine

Where has he gone?

Get that job you mentioned, get yourself in position to leave him.
if he has gone for the month to work, take the time to relax a bit and sort your thoughts out.
You will never make him happy, he is trying to goad you into some sort of response, do the 180 hard.

Are you in counselling? You should be, so that you have an opportunity to really process your emotions and thoughts.

Take the focus of him, and put the focus on yourself, keep him outside your boundaries, do not let his chaos get to you. He will try to unsettle you, do not let him.


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## Erudite

I WISH that he would leave for a month. It was just something he mentioned because he was going to get a good paying temp gig and living out of the van would save us money. Quote unquote. I said yeah that sounds real professional. To which he took offense. While I am at work Tells my son that he gives up and will stop paying all the bills. Etc. When I came home he pretended to be asleep then got up and blared The Walking Dead so I can't sleep. Came in and offered condolences for my friend's mom. I can't with him. I just can not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> Well today royally sucked!!!!! I made a nasty comment to H before leaving the house for work (in response to assertion that he was going to live in a van while working in Florida for a month. While at work I find that my dad is in the hospital/rehab, I need to check on my elderly aunt, and that my best friends mother (who was like a second mother to me growing up) died after a long bout of dementia. Then I come home to no light on outside, tripping over the junk my husband left all over the drive. Go inside to a nasty note basically stating he gives up, I win, and a disgusting sink full of grease and broken glass and salad clippings which I spent a half an hour cleaning. I am exhausted and grieving and I just can't handle this. How do I handle this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You already know the answer.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> You already know the answer.


 leave or ignore. I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Erudite

I just presented H with joint divorce papers. I was crying so hard at court that I took the security officers holding basket, the clerk had to give me more than 1 tissue, and bystanders were asking if I was okay to drive. I'm just winging it here. I am scared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustTired

Erudite said:


> I just presented H with joint divorce papers. I was crying so hard at court that I took the security officers holding basket, the clerk had to give me more than 1 tissue, and bystanders were asking if I was okay to drive. I'm just winging it here. I am scared.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


(((Hugs)))

Allow yourself to feel everything....embrace the pain, the fear, & the anxiety. It is natural to feel that way. It will be OK, you will be OK.


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## turnera

You handed them to him? Or you met in court? I don't understand. And what did he do?


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> You handed them to him? Or you met in court? I don't understand. And what did he do?


I handed them to him. Joint Divorce. If he did not sign them that I would file individually. He laughed that i was asking for temp alimony, balked at the filing fee, and said that he didn't want the courts to issue any temporary orders because he knows how courts work and I don't. I also asked my work for extra hours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

meh, let him laugh. You have an attorney, right? Your attorney will get you what you deserve.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> meh, let him laugh. You have an attorney, right? Your attorney will get you what you deserve.


No, no attorney, I am afraid. Now wants marriage counseling. Says that I will have to have him served since I am trying to force him to be the bad guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Then how do you expect to make him give you anything? Borrow the money from someone.


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> No, no attorney, I am afraid. Now wants marriage counseling. Says that I will have to have him served since I am trying to force him to be the bad guy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's going to be okay. Cancel out all his BS. Is he a lawyer? If not, he doesn't know 'how courts work'. 

Sure, have him served and let him be the bad guy then. He is, after all, the bad guy.

Have you reached out to any social services to see if you can get help with legal representation?


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## Satya

He might have been laughing, but that was probably to cover the sound of him soiling himself.


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## Erudite

I will have the money for court fees by the end of the month if not sooner. He has been texting another woman about my weight, anger management, and telling her I am miserable and friendless. Told a friend of ours that he hoped that my crappy car would blow up while I was alone driving. So all his marriage counseling talk was just hot air. Still hurts though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustTired

Erudite said:


> I will have the money for court fees by the end of the month if not sooner. He has been texting another woman about my weight, anger management, and telling her I am miserable and friendless. Told a friend of ours that he hoped that my crappy car would blow up while I was alone driving. So all his marriage counseling talk was just hot air. Still hurts though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How childish of him. Ugh! Yes, it still hurts...you are human. From this point on, try to live the best life ever. Take up new hobbies & redirect your focus to you & the kids. He's the miserable one...


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## Erudite

JustTired said:


> How childish of him. Ugh! Yes, it still hurts...you are human. From this point on, try to live the best life ever. Take up new hobbies & redirect your focus to you & the kids. He's the miserable one...


Been working a lot. Called a shelter for referrals to various agencies. Went to a costume party as the devil! Bwhahaha!


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## aine

Good for you Erudite! One foot in front of the other, day by day, you can do it.


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## Erudite

Blech, got into a mini argument with H over the texts. He was harassing me over some small thing at 1am and began playing the blame game. Then he said "You need to get your head straight." And I lost it a little, told him as calmly as I could that he had no right to talk to me like that. That I knew all about the texts he was sending his bimbo about me. He started laughing and saying "I was wondering when you were going to snoop. I sent those deliberately because I knew that you were going to look. Serves you right. Besides ***** is engaged. Do you think I am really going to sleep with her?" I responded that he already was blowing past common courtesy boundaries by sharing my personal information with a younger woman. Why would I think he would respect the fact that she was engaged?" (If I have learned anything from TAM it's that that is how EAs start, by sharing how you hate your spouse with an OSF!) At any rate I could see that things were rapidly devolving so I just shut up and went to bed. He of course sent me another vitriolic email. Saying I was the one showing all the signs of cheating and that because I was accusing him of it I must be the one doing it. Said if I really wanted a divorce he was content to be alone and "wouldn't hold me back." etc etc

I might be wrong but I feel like his responses to my anger over the texts were classic narcissism. I am NOT cheating. I am not sending texts or having inappropriate conversations with a member of the opposite sex. It IS wrong of him to do that. His assertion that he was just getting me back for snooping is just as bad if not worse. His emails are classic crazy making. I was pondering this all at work when a song came on about a man who realizes as his wife walked that he still loved her. It hit me then that even when the divorce is final he will still be acting this way. He's NOT going to come to some sort of epiphany (like in the song), mostly because he has done so much wrong now that it would destroy his ego. I realized listening to this song how OVER we really are.


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> I will have the money for court fees by the end of the month if not sooner. *He has been texting another woman* about my weight, anger management, and telling her I am miserable and friendless. *Told a friend of ours* that he hoped that my crappy car would blow up while I was alone driving. So all his marriage counseling talk was just hot air. Still hurts though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


btw, how do you know these things? You're not monitoring him, are you?


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## lucy999

And why are you engaging with him, responding to his texts and emails?


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> btw, how do you know these things? You're not monitoring him, are you?


*is sheepish* He has never had text before. When I got a new phone with text he decided to get one too. He never texts me so I looked at his conversations to see if he was using it at all and found the texts. I guess I was monitoring him. I guess I am looking for reasons to stay angry with him.


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## Erudite

lucy999 said:


> And why are you engaging with him, responding to his texts and emails?


I didn't respond to all the accusations in his email after our fight. I just said that I would be getting the papers asap. I didn't respond to all his other crap. I was hurt by the texts he was sending to other people but figured it was par for the course. Then he picked a fight at 1am and I used the texts he was sending other people as a defense mechanism...sigh. I do a really good job, as a general rule, of avoiding him and his machinations but sometimes I get caught with my emotional guard down and react negatively. I have been better, though, at recognizing it and can cut such incidents short when they used to go on for hours. That doesn't mean that I don't think about what he says or does, of course I do, I am just trying not to react...


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## Erudite

Realized last night that my husband is great at the one two punch. Hit me one day with how ungrateful and useless around the house I am. The next say how completely overwhelmed he is and how depressed he is. I am letting him, for the first time ever, see what he reckless decisions have wrought in our marriage/family and it isn't pretty. I neither can, nor would if I could, cover for his poor arguments or lies. He is home all day, every day, with the vast majority of his day without the kids and yet nothing has been accomplished. Not a single thing on his overwhelming to do list has been accomplished. His lies of receiving unemployment (he's not) have been exposed, his grand plans to start his own business, shelved due to lack of motivation and actual knowledge of how to run a business. He is trying to blame it on me and DS, still, but the arguments are weak. I can see that he is stressed and weak and depressed. It does make my heart hurt for him. There is nothing that I can do, though. The ball is rolling in my own life and can't be compromised. Keeping the house is not a priority for me anymore, for instance. H says that he should just let the house go rather than waste his time trying to earn money for house we will be leaving. The thought that he will still need money to support his kids or find his own place is not even occurring to him because he is trying to use the house to guilt me into staying. Letting it go would "serve me right" no matter that it is his kid's home. His passive aggressive attempts to get me to fall in line are only serving to hurt him more. The insults and childishness only serve to anger me these days. He always begins with those methods (they worked for so long) but it's the scared little boy that still gets to me. How he tentatively will want to talk, looking for comfort, solace, or guidance...the tell me what to do next look on his face. I still want to rush in and fix it, but sadly, I realize from experience that he will use this against me later as I subvert myself, yet again, to his wishes.


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## turnera

You can put that concern for him into action by no longer propping him up, so as to force HIM to prop HIMSELF up. You'll help him by no longer helping him. Will the transition be painful for him? Probably. But that's how people learn - we change only when the pain of staying in status quo is worse than the pain of changing.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> You can put that concern for him into action by no longer propping him up, so as to force HIM to prop HIMSELF up. You'll help him by no longer helping him. Will the transition be painful for him? Probably. But that's how people learn - we change only when the pain of staying in status quo is worse than the pain of changing.



Well that's all it was wasn't it? Propping? I certainly wasn't fixing anything!!! You can lead a horse to water, even against his will, but you can't make him drink.


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## turnera

My IC used the stool analogy. 'Your H has two legs. You're propping him up like the third leg on a stool, so that he doesn't have to learn to stand on his own two legs. Once you stop propping him up, he'll have two choices: learn to stand up on his own, or fall flat on his face. And THEN learn to stand on his own. Either way, you both win.'


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> There is nothing that I can do, though.


Your whole post is extremely insightful, Erudite. Cheers to you. But I wanted to quote the above. This must be your mantra from here on out when it comes to him.

RE: the house. After I kicked my ex BF out of the house, I hung on to it for a whole year by myself, in the hard core country (the winters are brutal here, lots of ice), on my income alone (2 jobs). Finally, my coworker and mother said, "What are you doing still there? Get out and move back to the city."

I was so worried about my credit (I was loud and proud about how good it was) if I lost the house. But, I was exhausted trying to keep things afloat. I'll be honest. I don't regret it. Credit can be rebuilt-your life with your husband cannot.


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## Erudite

Guys, what about being intimate? H was to be intimate but I don't know that I am comfortable. I would be using him to get rid of physical needs but I am still going to go ahead with the D. I don't. Want him to think that him wanting sex means I have forgotten his remarks about how unattractive I am or how he disparages my weight to other women. I do like sex, though, even though right now I am capitulating out of high sex drive and a bit of loneliness. Any thoughts?

Lucy, my credit is shot already so not worried about that much. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

I would avoid it with him at all costs.

Be disciplined with him and take care of your own needs.


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## turnera

"I don't have sex with people who criticize my looks or cut me down."


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## Erudite

I was afraid you would say that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Seriously. Why WOULD you have sex with a person who thinks poorly of you? Tell me.

You could go to any nightclub tonight and find someone to have sex with, if you're that desperate. Or get a good vibrator. ANYTHING is better than having sex with such a man.


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> Guys, what about being intimate?


I wouldn't. Because it might weaken your resolve to D. 

The last year of my relationship with my abusive ex BF was void of sex. Wasn't interested, I had strong suspicions he was stepping out and I didn't want to endanger my health, and most of all, frankly, sex with him was the last thing on my mind.

Get a kick ass vibrator as Turnera suggested. >


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## NobodySpecial

Magic wand!


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## Erudite

I am shamelessly looking for validation this morning. Yet another soul draining fight where I was told that I was insane. That was after a soul drain in fight last night followed by a text where he said that he must love me alot to put up with the abuse I dish out to him. I am starting to think he is right. That all of this is my fault. I thought that I was sticking up for myself, and setting boundaries, calling a spade a spade but what if it was just pushing him away? I said something really awful this morning after I perceived a below the belt attack. All the while he got calmer calmer while I got angrier and angrier. I am ready to give up. So so tired. H says that he is going to look into getting an annulment (wth?) then says he'll sign the papers. I just wish it would all go away.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Erudite, come on. Abusers tell victims it's all their fault. It's never the abuser's fault. You know that. It's like how they say crazy people will never say they're crazy, but non-crazy people will question if they are. And he got calmer because he was getting what he wanted - to tick you off and make YOU react badly.

Focus right now on NOT getting into fights, ok?


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## Erudite

I told him what he wanted to hear. How I was wrong. How sorry I was. Give me another chance. It was the only way I could think of to stop the passive aggressive attacks. He is now being super charming, pouring me wine, calling from the other room to say "I love you" etc etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Practice not saying anything at all, ok?


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## Erudite

:/ okay I don't. Expect this to last, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal

Call your county bar association. There are young attorneys who are willing to work pro bono. The association can hook you up with someone who will represent you. Don't start messing with the court system on your own unless you are familiar with family domestic law.

A free attorney. Take advantage of it. Quit focusing on this a$$hole's issues, personality disorders, and manipulation. Quit letting things happen TO you. Why? Because that is a victim's mentality.

Your life. Your choice. Stay a victim and pacify this jerk, or flip him the bird, get an attorney, and fight.


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## Erudite

Yes. Thanks for that. I realize I have victim mentality...yes I am desperate. Yes I am stupid for being here. Yes all my fears are foolish. Could someone please help me understand why I am so stuck instead of telling me I am dumb? You are making it sound like I am asking to be treated this way. The more I stand up for myself the harder he works to undermine me. I have gone months barely speaking to him. Gone to court to get divorce papers. Slept on the couch. Tried to build a support system. Gotten a job. Stopped homeschooling my kids. Why am I so worthless? Other than my little one it seems like I can't please anyone fast enough. I am drowning. So yes I will look into a free attorney. Sigh. I just want to say I am not stupid or dumb and I AM trying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Nobody thinks you're dumb. Everybody DOES think you have victim mentality, which is NOT your fault, but IS a direct RESULT of living with him. You've been reading books like Why Does He Do That, right? If so, you'll understand that the REASON you feel like you're drowning -he has stolen your self esteem from you, ruined your ability to believe in yourself and in your choices. He has made you doubt yourself. He has put himself in a position of esteem in your mind. It's a long, slow, psychological shift from belief in yourself to 100% doubting you can ever make a right decision, fear that nobody will ever want or love you again. Why? Because you HAD no support system, just him telling you you're lucky he put up with you because you're worthless. Prisoners of war come to believe their captors. Look up Stockholm Syndrome. It's 100% normal.

But that is WHY we've told you to get that support system - so OTHER people start talking to you and kicking out those abusive comments. So that when he does try to undermine you, you KNOW you're better than him and you can laugh at his petty attempts to control you.

We know you're trying. We know that abuse victims often try to leave several times before they finally get the nerve. So don't kick yourself. But understand it's not our job to pat you on the back and say good job, either. It's our job to remind you that you HAVE to leave. So you will.

You ARE reading the books, right?


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## turnera

I found this, a good synopsis on what you're going through and how to address it. It's actually a research paper for therapists, but it has a lot of good information:


> Impact Of Emotional Abuse
> 
> Initial Denial By the Abused Woman
> 
> In the early stages of abuse, a woman will project a positive image of her partner to herself and others. Often others feel uncomfortable challenging her denial or validating her experience of abuse. Eventually her sense of self and subjectivity are destroyed and the more she adapts the more she loses her unique self. (Chang, 1996)
> 
> The impact of spousal intermittent emotional (italics and words mine)support in an abusive relationship and the woman's perception that the relationship is working indicates that abused women may offer benign explanations for her partner's negative actions and her propensity to depress. (Arias et al, 1997)
> 
> The shame and guilt experienced by the victim results in passivity and a sense of helplessness. Depression becomes normalized due to its duration. Some women find eating as a form of comfort. (Chang, 1996)
> 
> Power and Anxiety
> 
> Due to socialization patterns, girls often repress or deny their own aggression or assertiveness and the need to be independent and powerful are projected onto men. Being powerful seems unfeminine and women fear acting powerfully may alienate them from traditional women and men. Even acting out one's own self interest is experienced by women as being selfish or aggressive. The anxiety between power and passivity can prove highly destructive when coupled with emotional abuse. Anxiety can be explained plausibly as anticipated unfavourable appraisal of one's current activity by someone whose opinion is significant. The dichotomy intrinsic in this situation is extreme when there is tension between loving a person and at the same time feeling hostile towards him. (Chang, 1996)
> 
> Disintegration of the Self
> 
> As the abuse escalates, the woman finds that she begins to experience psychic numbing, fragmentation of thoughts, and estrangement from her own body. (Loring, 1997) The emotional exhaustion experienced by the victim is brought on by a cycle of debility, dependency and dread. As the oppression and fear continues and perhaps escalates, the woman may come to feel fatigued, passive, and unable to act, unable to think concretely, and has poor memory. (Anderson, 1991; Evans, 1993)
> 
> Escalation Factors of Abuser
> 
> When the woman begins to cling and move into traumatic bonding (also known as anxious attachment, see below), the abuser escalates his use of emotional violence, as his loss is intensified and he feels the loss as there is less of her available. The master/slave paradigm is complete. (Chang, 1996)
> 
> Somatic Illness
> 
> Often somatic illnesses act as metaphors for women who are emotionally abused. A sore throat can indicate that being mute keeps you in a place of safety and perhaps the abuser will curtail his criticism. Chest pains occur when women feel that their hearts are breaking. Extreme fatigue can be brought on by depression or constant fear. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> They rarely express anger over their plight and typically report somatic illness such as panic disorders, recurrent major depression, dysthymic disorder (in and out of depression) and somatization disorders. (Anderson et al, 1991)
> 
> Stress plays a significant role in the alteration of the immune system and there is increased susceptibility to disease. High blood pressure and gastrointestinal problems has been reported.
> 
> Levels of anxiety can be plausibly explained when someone you rely on and are emotionally connected to appraises you as unworthy and is unrelenting in their criticism. (Chang, 1996)
> 
> Psychogenic Amnesia
> 
> This condition is characterized by the inability to recall specific aspects of a traumatic event. This results from multiple forms of abuse including death threats where the belief that a physical or emotional death is about to take place and there is no escape. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> Traumatic Bonding (Also known as Anxious Attachment)
> 
> The loss of self leaves victims vulnerable to traumatic bonding which is a type of attachment that intensifies the loss of selfhood. The victim is incapable of detaching herself from the abuser for she has no longer a separate and cohesive sense of self to detach. This type of bond is outlined in the literature as very similar to the Stockholm Syndromewhere paradoxical psychosocial responses of hostages to their captors exists. The abuser alternates kindness with terror and abrupt disconnection. Traumatic bonding can also leave the victim void of the ability to be analytical. A perpetrator of emotional abuse may force a woman into illegal acts (corrupting) and she feels she must comply or lose herself further. The abuser may threaten to kill loved ones if she does not heed his demands. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> The intermittent kindnesses and disconnection produce a disequilibrium, self-blame, dependency and a learned helplessness. Members of extremist cults report similar experiences in the form of dissociation from all that is familiar, prohibitions of free expression and dissent, the mobilization of fear and guilt, and the establishment of an omnipotent master who demands self-sacrifice. (Anderson, 1991; Henderson et al, 1997; National Clearinghouse on Family Violence, 1993; NiCarthy, 1982; Rathus and O'Leary, 1997)
> 
> Intergenerational Abuse
> 
> Neither witnessing violence in one's own parents nor being the target of it is necessary or sufficient condition for being a battered and/or an emotionally abused (italics and words mine) woman later in life. Even if the abuse in the child's home is mainly psychological, however, she may learn important victim characteristics, such as passivity, self-sacrifice, and tolerance for psychological abuse. It is important to note, however, that from a socio-psychological standpoint, it is quite possible that a marital situation could be constructed in which the features of psychological coercion and mind control were of sufficient magnitude that women from any number of different backgrounds might be retained within it. (Anderson et al, 1991)
> 
> Theoretical Perspectives
> 
> The primary and initial focus of any good theoretical perspective of healing must deal with actual abusive process. Assisting in the process of healing the woman who is experiencing a disintegration of the self, healers, clinicians, counsellors, therapists and others, must engage in an alliance with the client that encourages reintegration. The establishments of non-abusive connections and emotional safety are key to the healing of the abused woman. Once these issues are resolved, other treatment modalities can be explored. (Loring, 1994) When physical abuse is present, there is a tendency for clinicians to focus on that aspect and to perhaps obscure the emotional abuse. Even if the physical abuse ceases, the abuser may continue to emotionally abuse. (Tolman, 1992)
> 
> The theories abound regarding the treatment of woman abuse. Some are better than others and some may be dangerous to the woman's well-being. Examples of the various forms are as follows:
> 
> Co-dependency
> 
> This perspective states that the victim can't reject emotional abuse that she doesn't recognize. The approach fails to allow for the victim's tendency to internalize blame and to suffer from depression, confusion and anxious attachment (also called traumatic attachment).(italics mine) Co-dependency theory misses the hostage-like emotional capacity. It does, however, recognize key characteristics of the abuser such as denial of responsibility. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> Social Learning Perspective
> 
> This theory states that the victim's low self-esteem is a result of the abuse she has suffered and that it is a learned response. Some state that low self-esteem caused them to be in the relationship in the first place. It is probable that both processes contribute to the situation - as a history of abuse renders a victim vulnerable. If there was no actual abuse in childhood, then bonding was inadequate or early caregivers lacked warmth. Overall, social learning focuses on messages in the larger society, i.e. violence/oppression. Society sees women's physical and emotional well-being as unimportant. It also states that boys are socialized to violence and repression of their emotions and to use anger as the primary outlet. This approach is good for men to recognize their own pain and its impact on others.(Loring, 1994)
> 
> Battered Woman Syndrome
> 
> The characteristics include low self esteem, fear of the partner's actual or threatening abuse and learned helplessness. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> Systems Theory
> 
> This theory depicts family violence as an interactive process between partners locked in a pattern of mutual behaviour or responses. It views both partners as responsible. It explains the behaviour of victims and abusers in terms of interactional dynamics and systems stability as if there is no differentiation of responsibility. This theory is inaccurate and wrong. There is no recognition of the immorality of violence. It does not protect the victim and, in fact, hold her partly responsible for her own abuse. If an abused woman submits, it is to avoid abuse, not contribute to it. Systems theory states that couples should be counselled together and doesn't recognize the safety issues. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> An important reservation is that discussion might entice the counsellors who are more systems-oriented to attempt couple counselling in order to help reconstruct the moral domain characterizing the family system....the safety of the victim comes first. (Pilowsky, 1993)
> 
> The Family Systems model has been utilized to explain intergenerational transmission. Children experience conflict as an aversive event; then the child acts emotionally and instrumentally (acting out) as an attempt to alleviate distress and does in fact alleviate the distress. These patterns are carried into adulthood. A recent longitudinal study spanning twenty-two years, has shown, in fact, that aggression is found to be very stable across generations within a family, when measured at comparable ages, supporting the idea of intergenerational transmission. (Anderson, Boulette and Schwartz, 1991)
> 
> Relational Theory
> 
> This theory contends that women have traditionally built their sense of identity and self-worth on activities that involve caring about and giving to others. These roles are not given value in our culture. Women grow up with a pervasive sense that what they do isn't as valuable as what men do. Women cannot even value their own thoughts, feelings and actions. The foundations have been laid for self devaluation before the abuse begins. This may lead them to tolerate the negation inherent in emotional abuse. (Loring, 1994) However, this toleration should not be a signal to therapists or others that women are innately masochistic. Poor self-esteem is constructed in the sexist, racist, ageist society in which we live. This is largely the outgrowth of lack of power, but it also comes in part from the traditional "feminine" stereotype, since the traditional female is not supposed to be strong intellectually, physically, emotionally, or morally, except occasionally in the service of others. (Caplan, 1985)
> 
> Authenticity
> 
> Women in a sexist society cannot become fully themselves. Being authentic means acknowledging and expressing anger, pursuing one's own interests and needs. It opens up possibilities of displeasing others. This may arouse fear of abandonment if authenticity is practiced. Due to how girls are raised, many haven't had the opportunity to define themselves. This point offers an insight into how women learn to submit to others' self-definition - one of the classic dynamics found in emotional abuse. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> In therapy, the woman begins to self develop - a paradigm shift takes place and she can begin to define her own reality. She can then feel not threatened by connections and mutuality is expected. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> Learned Helplessness
> 
> The concept of 'learned helplessness' suggests that perception is a static, inalterable phenomenon, impermeable to external influences. It suggests that somehow, 'helpless' has been developmentally ingrained as an ultimate and final self attribution. Yet, perceptual boundaries are fluid and open to extra-systemic input, most particularly input which, itself, carries emotional competence. (italics and word mine). Women who endured the extent of abuse described to the author could not actually be thought of as 'powerless'. Are there not seeds of empowerment evident in such perseverance, particularly when the choice to stay may be rooted in a strong moral principle upholding the sanctity of family life at the cost of personal integrity and physical safety. (Pilowsky, 1993)
> 
> Therapeutic Modalities
> 
> A woman's ability to connect, even with the therapist, will be tentative. The therapist's ability to recognize the signs of abuse will be a challenge as there is a lot of ambivalence by the woman towards her abuser. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> In many of the studies it was obvious that there were many differences in the ways of seeing the abuse and the abilities/opportunities to escape. These differences should underscore the inevitable uniqueness of every individual's daily life experience. (Pilowsky, 1993)
> 
> Attachment-Trauma Model
> 
> The components of this model entail developing a therapeutic stance that respects the client's unfolding self and her quest for hope. Warmth and empathy are crucial to beginning this quest and should become a model for the client's subsequent connections. The examining of hopes and dreams; showing respect and interest in her talents and skills; and demonstrating positive regard and belief in her abilities are necessary. She needs to be validated and also need to find a way of comforting herself. The crucial nature of staying 'on the client's side' will lead to reconnective integrative interaction. The goal is to assist in the woman's reintegration as she will come into therapy in a state of fragmentation. The risk of remembering is a painful one and they need to know they are safe and connected to a supportive therapist or counsellor. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> Touching to heal can provide some comfort to a woman who has been abused. She may have felt untouchable due to the abuse. Before such touching as hugs, holding of hand, resting hand on shoulder or placing hand under elbow (symbol of support), a therapist or counsellor should have initially gone over the exploitation-free type of therapy provided. (Loring, 1994) Asking the client if she is comfortable with touching is an important part of the therapy.
> 
> The abusive partner may be required as part of therapy if the woman wishes to stay in the relationship. However, the therapist needs to share intentions with the woman and ask her permission. The partner can be an ally to the therapist only if he recognizes his responsibility as an abuser. He is there to support the woman's growth, not to heal himself. A separate men's group or therapist can work with him. Three session with the abused woman's therapist should be enough to gather information and to be firm with the abuser as to the woman's need for growth and to find her own authenticity. Because abusers often have abandonment fears, they may cooperate to keep the relationship. For the very sadistic men, little change is possible and this needs to eventually be acknowledged by the abused woman. (Loring, 1994)
> 
> Also, the tasks of feminist therapists or counsellors are to raise moral issues therapeutically. In so doing, the abuser must face the immorality of his abusive acts; he must embrace an accountability which will help him break through his wall of denial. (Pilowsky, 1993)
> 
> In some literature, treatment models were not named but suggestions were offered and resemble the above. However, contradictions were present and some may be detrimental to the woman. One example states that a therapist might encourage passivity in the woman to avoid abuse. Studies have shown that this passivity may frustrate the abuser as he sees it as not having access to her complete and whole self. (Anderson et al, 1991; Chang, 1996)
> 
> Crucial to the beginning of therapeutic relationship is the need to believe the woman despite the fact that she may minimize her physical and psychological abuse. (Anderson et al, 1991) As the trust builds between the therapist and the abused woman, the woman will begin to identify with the therapist and is relieved that someone else identifies the relationship as abusive and actually condemns his abuse of her. Group support can be a critical part of counselling for many abused women who are beginning to reintegrate. However, individual counselling should precede this for a time. (Chang, 1996) The group work can assist in the elimination of isolation. This is especially important for the immigrant/refugee women who can speak their own languages in group. (Pilowsky, 1993)
> 
> The temptation to rescue, the frustration, and the disrespect are the principle internal problems that counsellors encounter when working with emotionally abused women. Also this comes from caring for the client; no woman who has not been self-determining and done her own part in therapeutic work and processed her own problems will heal. Some may return to their abuser and leave the counsellor exhausted, disempowered and frustrated. This frustration comes from caring, over-involvement and oversimplification. (Burstow, 1992)
> 
> Short term goals vary with the situation. Common short run goals include helping the client
> 
> (a) alter a brutalizing situation that she desires to alter, (b) exit from a brutalizing situation, (c) protect herself from the abuser, and (d) start a new and independent life. Subsidiary goals and means that typically figure in empowerment include (a) nurturing and validating, (b) addressing internalized oppression and myths, (c) co-addressing the very real obstacles in the way. Work on internalized oppression is critical. (Burstow, 1992)
> 
> Some abused women will trivialize or minimize the abuse, Burstow (1992) again provides us with insight into reasons why this happens.
> 
> self-protection/terror (the partner has threatened to beat her senseless or to kill if she tells)
> loyalty to the abusive partner
> safeguarding one's situation (if she acknowledges to us the full extent of what is happening, she fears that she may have to act and sacrifice what she now has)
> concern that we will not understand what her partner or family means to her and will push her to leave
> concern that we will not take in cultural differences and will push her to leave
> The issue of self-blaming (victim-blaming) must be seen as the disempowering ploy that it is.


Emotional Abuse of Women by their Intimate Partners: A Literature Review | Springtide Resources


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## Cynthia

I don't think it's about standing up for yourself. It's about being yourself and taking care of yourself and not letting his comments or behaviors get in the way of that. You do you and you leave him to his own devices while you work on a plan to get away from him.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> Nobody thinks you're dumb. Everybody DOES think you have victim mentality, which is NOT your fault, but IS a direct RESULT of living with him. You've been reading books like Why Does He Do That, right? If so, you'll understand that the REASON you feel like you're drowning -he has stolen your self esteem from you, ruined your ability to believe in yourself and in your choices. He has made you doubt yourself. He has put himself in a position of esteem in your mind. It's a long, slow, psychological shift from belief in yourself to 100% doubting you can ever make a right decision, fear that nobody will ever want or love you again. Why? Because you HAD no support system, just him telling you you're lucky he put up with you because you're worthless. Prisoners of war come to believe their captors. Look up Stockholm Syndrome. It's 100% normal.
> 
> But that is WHY we've told you to get that support system - so OTHER people start talking to you and kicking out those abusive comments. So that when he does try to undermine you, you KNOW you're better than him and you can laugh at his petty attempts to control you.
> 
> We know you're trying. We know that abuse victims often try to leave several times before they finally get the nerve. So don't kick yourself. But understand it's not our job to pat you on the back and say good job, either. It's our job to remind you that you HAVE to leave. So you will.
> 
> You ARE reading the books, right?


I am not familiar with this book. Did you me too it before and I forgot?



turnera said:


> I found this, a good synopsis on what you're going through and how to address it. It's actually a research paper for therapists, but it has a lot of good information:
> Emotional Abuse of Women by their Intimate Partners: A Literature Review | Springtide Resources


Am I really that far gone.



CynthiaDe said:


> I don't think it's about standing up for yourself. It's about being yourself and taking care of yourself and not letting his comments or behaviors get in the way of that. You do you and you leave him to his own devices while you work on a plan to get away from him.


I don't know me anymore. I am operating on what others think I should do. What is supposedly normal...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm sure I recommended it. It's the bible on abuse. I tell everyone to read it. I hope you will get it asap. It will really open your eyes. Here's the link:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/why...d=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP3458&k_clickid=3x3458


And you don't know you BECAUSE of what he's done to you. And he probably isn't even aware he's doing it; it's just what they do to keep people in their lives, because THEY have no self worth and figure the only way someone will stay with them is if that person feels they can't get anything better.

Anyway, not knowing 'you' any more is exactly WHY YOU MUST LEAVE. Only when you can wake up every day without negativity, blame, sarcasm, passive aggressiveness will you be able to start loving yourself. It's almost impossible for you to get better when you're still with him. That's why we keep pushing it. You can't see it now, from 'there,' but once you're out, you'll be amazed. And kick yourself for waiting so long.


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> I don't know me anymore. I am operating on what others think I should do. What is supposedly normal...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No one here is saying you're dumb! I'm hard pressed to think anyone here would kick you when you're down. You're not dumb. But I agree with the others re: your victim mentality. I realize it's not easy. Remember, I've traveled the road you're on. Its easier to think of ways to stay than to uproot your whole life and begin anew. I get it! But you have to leave. You know this. Time to finally be proactive.

You won't ever know who you are until you get away from your H for good.

You have GOT to get out. Aren't you sick of living such a horrid groundhog day? Enough already. Time to sh#t or get off the pot. To your H, you're all bark and no bite. He has absolutely zero motivation or strength to change. And why would he want to? He's got it made. You have resources. Use them. Sending you strength today. 

Please know this is said with care and concern for you, not out of disrespect or mean spiritedness.


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## Prodigal

Agreed. Nobody is saying you are dumb, worthless, or anything else.

So what are you? Rabidly codependent. You define yourself by how others react to you; specifically, in this case, your loser husband.

It IS terrifying to step out of one's comfort zone, even if that comfort zone is a living hell. Trust me, I know.

I was scared sh!tless when I left my first alcoholic, abusive, narcissist husband. Not to mention he was a pathological liar and a misogynist. Yep, a real charmer ... And I'm probably mentioning his better personality disorders here. Bottom line: He was a total bas!ard. Big time. Beat me up. Cheated. You get the picture. The man terrorized me for years.

A year before I left, I got my ducks in a row. I moved heaven and earth to get a full-time job. I didn't like my boss, but I knew I had to have enough money to escape.

My leaving was dramatic, to say the least. But I was roaring mad. It trumped my fear. Fear keeps us stuck.

Your fear is keeping you stuck. Bravery is not the absence of fear; it is doing what needs to be accomplished REGARDLESS of the fear.

I am living proof you can and will survive. When you actually realize that nothing is worth staying with this crumb, even your fear of the unknown, you WILL leave.

Life is good. Not perfect. Times of stress and frustration, sure. But my life is a million times better fighting for myself than it ever was fighting with a lunatic who invaded my space, my self-esteem, my sanity, and my life.


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> I don't know me anymore. I am operating on what others think I should do. What is supposedly normal...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What do you want for your children? How do you think they ought to be treated? Thinking about that is a start. It will help you begin to recognize what is and is not okay.
If you read some books on codependency, it will help to open your eyes. Two good ones are:
Codependent No More Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself: Melody Beattie: 9780894864025: Amazon.com: Books
Facing Codependency, which is a really good book for explaining the practical application of what things should be like. It is good for understanding how to parent well. I really enjoyed it and think it would be helpful to you. http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Codepe...1&keywords=facing+codependence+by+pia+mellody
These books are usually available used on Amazon.
You have a lot on your mind right now. It would be helpful if you stop thinking you need to be or do something, but rather to focus on your work and your children while doing some reading and learning about what is and is not healthy. That should only take a few weeks, then you can begin to develop a plan to leave and a way to deal with your husband while you are still with him.


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## Erudite

I think that he is wrong but nobody confirms it. Not really. People can tell me he's a rat ba$tard but no one actually says "he is wrong for doing this to you". No one says that I don't deserve this. It sounds like common knowledge "of course he is wrong and she knows it, that's why she is here" but it's not. Half the time I can't even recall what he did. I just know that I come out of fights feeling confused and upset. Random confusing things happen and his explanations are so preposterous but I can't put my finger on why so I wind up giving him the benefit of the doubt. I hear gossip that he is telling people I am bipolar, and instead of being angry, I wonder if I am really bipolar. I don't trust my intuition anymore. So when I say he did or said something, and feel it's "off" I need confirmation. Does that make sense? I am not looking for validation I am looking for confirmation. Do I come across as bipolar or just confused? Do I come across as having anger management issues? Am I suicidal or merely depressed? Do I sound like someone with below average intelligence? I just don't know anymore. I hope you are all right about what happens after.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

He has you right where he wants you. In a state of confusion. My recommendation is that you stop listening to him and focus on doing what you know is right. Things like focusing on your work and your children, eating well, getting some exercise and feeding your spirit.
If it turns out that you have some of the issues that he thinks you do, you can deal with them when you are safely away from him. What you do know is that he not safe for you. He does not encourage you and support you. His approach is to put you down and make you feel bad.


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## turnera

Erudite said:


> I think that he is wrong but nobody confirms it. Not really. People can tell me he's a rat ba$tard but no one actually says "he is wrong for doing this to you". No one says that I don't deserve this. It sounds like common knowledge "of course he is wrong and she knows it, that's why she is here" but it's not. Half the time I can't even recall what he did. I just know that I come out of fights feeling confused and upset. Random confusing things happen and his explanations are so preposterous but I can't put my finger on why so I wind up giving him the benefit of the doubt. I hear gossip that he is telling people I am bipolar, and instead of being angry, I wonder if I am really bipolar. I don't trust my intuition anymore. So when I say he did or said something, and feel it's "off" I need confirmation. Does that make sense? I am not looking for validation I am looking for confirmation. Do I come across as bipolar or just confused? Do I come across as having anger management issues? Am I suicidal or merely depressed? Do I sound like someone with below average intelligence? I just don't know anymore. I hope you are all right about what happens after.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like I said, this is the abuse talking. It ROBS you of your ability to trust your own feelings and thoughts.

If nothing else, move out and let him 'date' you if he really wants you - from another house. It will give you space to get some clarity and rebuild your self esteem. Once you are on your own, you and your therapist can help you build up some healthy boundaries about what kind of treatment to accept.

Oh, and the others not believing that he's all that bad? That's why I feel that mental abuse is worse than physical abuse, at least in terms of getting support from people. I hear it over and over and over, even here on TAM - it's just words, how can that be so bad? You must be egging him on, just stop doing it. Or just get over it. Stuff like that. That's what makes it hard for mental abuse victims to leave - they feel like people think they're just being too sensitive. But they don't have to live with it.

Try to stop thinking about what others think, and if you can justify it. Do what you need to do for YOU. It would help, though, if you could find a support group specifically for abuse victims, either in real life or online. You need to hear from other people who are going through what you are.


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## Erudite

So new update. I have not moved out. Still trying to avoid a shelter. Have been talking to the local community action centers and have options to pay for first and last months rent. Oh..and I filed for divorce today. I am waiting for the judge to waive filing fees...but the ball is finally rolling. If y'all are wondering "why now".. Well husband lost another job, I found an email from an old bed buddy asking him for a sexual relationship, and found out he was on CL "platonic" and chatting (and lying) to a woman about his marriage/job...oh and he had stopped paying mortgage months ago...

Soooo what's new with you guys? 👅
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Well, I'm glad you're finally moving on.


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## Erudite

I half expected my STBX to be angry when I told him I filed for divorce. He wasn't. I then expected that he might try to get me to call it all off. He hasn't. He is continuing to blame me for all his financial trouble. My job interferes with helping sell stuff. The little one keeps him from getting his business off the ground. He floats the bills while I do nothing. I blindsided him with a divorce. I hate him but I need to work with him etc etc etc Basically it's still the same stuff. He is acting like I never filed. He says he's on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Otherwise he is fairly pleasant when he's not ignoring me. Is this normal behavior?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> I half expected my STBX to be angry when I told him I filed for divorce. He wasn't. I then expected that he might try to get me to call it all off. He hasn't. He is continuing to blame me for all his financial trouble. My job interferes with helping sell stuff. The little one keeps him from getting his business off the ground. He floats the bills while I do nothing. I blindsided him with a divorce. I hate him but I need to work with him etc etc etc Basically it's still the same stuff. He is acting like I never filed. He says he's on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Otherwise he is fairly pleasant when he's not ignoring me. Is this normal behavior?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People respond all sorts of ways. He is apparently in denial. He can just act as if nothing is happening and blame all problems on you. That way he doesn't have to face his own issues. Do not engage him in his foolishness. If you answer him according to his folly, you are giving credence to his foolishness. Just walk away.


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## Erudite

agenda said:


> Your entire last post is about your soon to be exhusband and what he's thinking and how he's behaving.
> 
> You need to stop this, NOW.
> 
> What he does and thinks is none of your concern. Well in some ways it "might" be from a legal sense but for the most part- learn not to care.
> 
> You'll save yourself a lot of grief.


This is the problem I have had for a while now. I try but I imagine I won't be able to ignore him fully until we are living separately. I asked the judge for sole use of the house(while we still have it) so that I can sell/pack etc without his intrusion/abuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> He says he's on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_*He's*_ on the verge of a nervous breakdown? PLEASE.

Stay strong. You can do this. Remember, soon you will have a life w/out all of his nonsense and BS. Steer the course.:smile2:


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## turnera

When I broke up with my controlling ex-fiance after I found out he'd been cheating the whole three years we were together, he came to my work every single day for weeks, begging for another chance. Told me he had to drop out of school because he was having a nervous breakdown. My male coworkers finally got together and 'made' him go away. He was married to another girl (who looked just like me) in six months. Good riddance.


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## Erudite

My stbx says that it was inevitable. He would have turned in the papers if it weren't for the fees. He is definitely not trying to get me back. I am sure that he will find someone after I move out with the kids. Maybe the old bed buddy. Who knows. I admit that it stings that he is not groveling but it's not healthy to take satisfaction from groveling anyway. (am I really jealous of women whose exes DID grovel. Oy.) I find that the thought of him sleeping with someone else causes a dull ache but I figure once I have my own place I'll be to busy to think about such things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Erudite said:


> My stbx says that it was inevitable. He would have turned in the papers if it weren't for the fees. He is definitely not trying to get me back. I am sure that he will find someone after I move out with the kids. Maybe the old bed buddy. Who knows. I admit that it stings that he is not groveling but it's not healthy to take satisfaction from groveling anyway. (am I really jealous of women whose exes DID grovel. Oy.) I find that the thought of him sleeping with someone else causes a dull ache but I figure once I have my own place I'll be to busy to think about such things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you will only move up, sweetheart. He is doing you a favor by embracing the divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Erudite

jld said:


> I think you will only move up, sweetheart. He is doing you a favor by embracing the divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. I don't think embrace is the word exactly. He is narcissistic so he is just not willing to fight. If the praise and worship don't come to him he will move on to an easier target. He takes pride in being the black sheep. He takes pride in bucking the system.

I do admit that I could be moving faster. I thought filing would make me happier or a purpose. Something to look forward to. Right now though I see crap behind and crap ahead. I hope y'all are right about a how things will look a year from now since now it looks really bleak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

In what way? Soon, you'll make all your own decisions. You won't tiptoe around him. You won't second guess your choices or decisions. The only downfall is having a human body next to you in bed, and you can pay someone for that.


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## tech-novelist

Erudite said:


> I half expected my STBX to be angry when I told him I filed for divorce. He wasn't. I then expected that he might try to get me to call it all off. He hasn't. He is continuing to blame me for all his financial trouble. My job interferes with helping sell stuff. The little one keeps him from getting his business off the ground. He floats the bills while I do nothing. I blindsided him with a divorce. I hate him but I need to work with him etc etc etc Basically it's still the same stuff. He is acting like I never filed. He says he's on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Otherwise he is fairly pleasant when he's not ignoring me. Is this normal behavior?


It's better than a lot of reactions. If I were in your circumstances, I'd be thankful that he is just complaining passively-aggressively.


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> I hope y'all are right about a how things will look a year from now since now it looks really bleak.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are. :grin2: Been there, done that. Trust me. It'll get easier every day once you're away from that narc.


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## Erudite

lucy999 said:


> _*He's*_ on the verge of a nervous breakdown? PLEASE.
> 
> Stay strong. You can do this. Remember, soon you will have a life w/out all of his nonsense and BS. Steer the course.:smile2:





turnera said:


> In what way? Soon, you'll make all your own decisions. You won't tiptoe around him. You won't second guess your choices or decisions. The only downfall is having a human body next to you in bed, and you can pay someone for that.





tech-novelist said:


> It's better than a lot of reactions. If I were in your circumstances, I'd be thankful that he is just complaining passively-aggressively.





lucy999 said:


> We are. :grin2: Been there, done that. Trust me. It'll get easier every day once you're away from that narc.


Dear heavens if I did not believe you before I do now. It is do hard not to engage this jerk! My eldest son has been on vacation all week while my little has been in day at for a full day. My oldest has been playing video games non stop with his father all week while nothing has been done around the house. Remember H said he never has help and that the little is distracting. Now he has had help available all week but played games while I work and the LO in in care. Still no progress and a teen who has been on electronics all day. Being concerned for my son's excessive computer time I told him to shut down his computer and to read for the rest of the night. Then I went to bed early. I wake up to get a drink and find the two of them still on the computer!!!! I yank the internet and tell my eldest to get to bed since he deliberately disobeyed me. Then his father starts yelling at me be caus he was supposedly researching stuff for the house. I explained to him that I was punishing our son and could have used his help parenting him since H was aware of my instructions. He continued making snide comments and yelling and I had to fight so hard not to engage.

Here's the thing. In my own house I don't to worry about someone undermining my authority. In my own house I set the rules for chores and what goes in and out. In my own house I am free to parent a child consistent with my values. In my own house I would not be berated. In my own house would not be tempted to act so passive aggressively myself. I knew I should listen to y'all!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Erudite said:


> Here's the thing. In my own house I don't to worry about someone undermining my authority. In my own house I set the rules for chores and what goes in and out. In my own house I am free to parent a child consistent with my values. In my own house I would not be berated. In my own house would not be tempted to act so passive aggressively myself. I knew I should listen to y'all!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes!
And in your house, you are on the same page with your partner. Living with someone who is not on the same page only leads to trouble. Your current husband is not a partner. He is an entity unto himself. Once you move out and you have boundaries in your home, your son may not appreciate them, but it will instruct him as to what is and is not appropriate. He will eventually make his own choice, but he will have the truth that you have taught him that will help to guide him.


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## Erudite

CynthiaDe said:


> Yes!
> And in your house, you are on the same page with your partner. Living with someone who is not on the same page only leads to trouble. Your current husband is not a partner. He is an entity unto himself. Once you move out and you have boundaries in your home, your son may not appreciate them, but it will instruct him as to what is and is not appropriate. He will eventually make his own choice, but he will have the truth that you have taught him that will help to guide him.


Well my eldest wants to live with his father. So he says. He is very torn between the both of us. One minute he is responsible and kind and sweet the next he is emulating his father with the added bonus of swearing and calling me names. I tell him things would be so much beter but he doesn't really believe me. Of course I hardly believe me. He ignores his dad when his dad says one minute he wants him to stay with him the next to go with me. One minute his dad says he'll live in a trailer, the next live out of his truck. It's just craziness and so unhealthy for a teen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Erudite

And I can't even begin to think of another partner. The thought makes me cringe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

The best you can do with a teenager involved is maintain consistent love and rules in your home. He just might go live with dad just SO he can play video games every day. What kid wouldn't?

All you can hope is that, like eating ice cream every day, it will eventually get old and he'll come to crave 'normal' and come back home. I think for now, all I would push is that he stay up to date in school.


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## Erudite

turnera said:


> The best you can do with a teenager involved is maintain consistent love and rules in your home. He just might go live with dad just SO he can play video games every day. What kid wouldn't?
> 
> All you can hope is that, like eating ice cream every day, it will eventually get old and he'll come to crave 'normal' and come back home. I think for now, all I would push is that he stay up to date in school.


On one hand I think he would see a huge difference in our relationship on the other I feel like he is already a mimicking his father and I don't want to expose him to more. I feel as though if I fight for him he will hate me for keeping him from his dad. On the other hand if I don't fight for him he'll think I don't love him. I feel like it is a no win situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman

Erudite said:


> On one hand I think he would see a huge difference in our relationship on the other I feel like he is already a mimicking his father and I don't want to expose him to more. I feel as though if I fight for him he will hate me for keeping him from his dad. On the other hand if I don't fight for him he'll think I don't love him. I feel like it is a no win situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe at first. My daughter was 10 when her dad convinced her to say awful things and try to go live with him. I fought for her. It took several years - now she's 17 and she has opened up about things. She felt if she sided with her Dad that things would be easier because he can be demanding and a bully. She didn't stop loving me. She just felt taking his side would make her Dad finally happy with her and nice. Last month she finally went NC with her Dad. She got tired of the bullying, the mean words, the criticism, the mood swings... she realized he was toxic. It was a tough decision and one I had no part in. But she knew I loved her unconditionally so she could be mean and not risk losing me. If she turned her back on her Dad she knew his love was NOT unconditional. It was sort of a survival mechanism.

We are very close now. I, too, always felt I had to fight for her. I could never let her think I didn't want her, even if I had lost.


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## BetrayedDad

Erudite said:


> I love my husband. I don't think you spend almost 20 years with someone and not have deep seated feelings for them.


You'd be surprised....


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## Erudite

BetrayedDad said:


> You'd be surprised....


Well, I think you can love someone but the overwhelming negative feelings just push that love aside.

He got the papers from the court last week. I think he has unto Friday to respond...

Some days /hours I really really don't want this. Other times I can't wait for it to be over. He is trying hard not to be controlling and more even tempered but his is also now stuck in a self pity pity pit. He wants me to withdraw the divorce petition one minute and the next claiming I am kicking him to the curb after 15 years so why bother wtcetc. I am reading the papers but am confused by the process. I know I need a lawyer...i am very scared and sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucy999

Erudite said:


> Well husband lost another job, I found an email from an old bed buddy asking him for a sexual relationship, and found out he was on CL "platonic" and chatting (and lying) to a woman about his marriage/job...oh and he had stopped paying mortgage months ago...
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Erudite said:


> He wants me to withdraw the divorce petition one minute and the next claiming I am kicking him to the curb after 15 years so why bother wtcetc. I am reading the papers but am confused by the process. I know I need a lawyer...i am very scared and sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


(((hang in there))). I know it's difficult. I've been there. But you need to focus on my first quote. This is no way to live. Your H is a huge liability to you. You can't count on him for anything. And when H says you're kicking him to the curb after 15 years, tell him, yep, sure am. Because of most recently, the quote above. But I know there's a whole myriad of crap you've dealt with over the last 15 years. So yep. You're kicking him to the curb. You'll kick yourself a year later and ask yourself, what took me so long? I'm _still_ kicking myself 5 years later! It's asinine. 

I realize the budget is an issue, but is there any way you can retain a lawyer? Any law schools in your area, any pro bono lawyers that are willing to help?

Think with your head and not your heart. Common sense rules the day.


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