# Just scheduled a clinical psychologist session for one



## 6Sticks

I really upset my wife last night in a way that has hit a new low for our relationship. I scheduled to meet with a psychologist this week to get my life back together. I have trouble putting my feelings to spoken words. Perhaps I have too many clouded thoughts in my head and I need to clear them one at a time and organize them thoughtfully after. I can’t say how many revisions I wrote composing this piece but for it’s short length it took me over 5 hours to complete.

My wife struggles with some form of everyday anxiety that persists in her family; she strives for order and honesty and loves our family (we have two children under 9). I have a general lack of attention to detail (possibly ADD) because I don’t always hear things after acknowledging I have. Or, I take things out then I don’t always remember to put it away or feel leaving it out is more convenient for some future uncertainty. Or, I’ll start a project around the house, then walk away for something else and forget I was doing it until later. Or, I treat our garage (the one space larger than 2 sq ft I’m allowed to keep as my own space) like it’s a dumping ground. Given this, I am surprisingly successful in my career and fatherhood but the mistakes I make there are easily forgiven because of either generated revenue or unconditional love. These same mistakes I make around my wife are taken less and less tolerably and I believe her when she says they are wearing her to a breakdown. 

I am also a man with a very functional testosterone system. I could have sex every day, likely before every meal and I struggle with my wife’s increasing lack of desirability toward me. I have made a few steps toward improving my appeal, including maintaining my body weight in the normal/healthy range (I was once considered obese by those numbers) and working out regularly, minimizing my drinking and giving her 10-30 minute foot & leg massages (on average) every other night. These are not just desperate attempts to coax my wife into having sex with me, I truly love her and want our relationship to be strong. And we do have good, even very good, days together. The problem I deal with is the rejection. I learned early in our relationship not to ask for sex as my wife is very turned off by the desperation. Since then, I have become nothing but desperate. We have sex on average once every 6 weeks and that’s been a steady average for years. She doesn’t feel in the mood very much (or does at inconvenient times for her), never climaxes for me (even when I go down on her, which I very much enjoy doing but stops me before getting her close) and I can't hold out my orgasm for more than a few minutes because I can’t hold my excitement. 

Last night was a case I could have let play out like every other night before it. That morning my wife recognized I was depressed but I had trouble copping up to it because I was sitting with our kids and not ready to get into it with them around. I was, in fact, feeling frustrated, because the night before we were getting very cuddly together. I’d rub her neck and shoulders and she’d moan low with pleasure (not uncommon when I massage her, true). Most nights like this she would be soothed to sleep and the night before was no different; only I was more turned on than usual. So I was a bit frustrated the next morning that I hadn’t come close to any sort of mutual intimacy with her, even if it meant her just rubbing her hand across my chest. I started to convince myself I was at fault and I should have been more aggressive. I took most of the day to clean the house, relax and resolved to communicate my desires, even if it meant having to ask for sex, which was an absolute last resort. My wife spent the morning exercising then took the kids out for a few hours after. Later in the afternoon while she was taking a shower, I casually knocked on the door and asked her if I could get her anything. To my unexpected surprise and delight she said, “an orgasm.” I was ready to take my clothes off right there and join her but with the kids playing around the house it was understandably an anxious no-go from her. That night I put the kids down as early as they could (without getting cranky) then slowly, patiently, tried to get my wife in the mood with caressing her shoulders and neck and everything else she loves while she watched her favorite channel on TV. I followed with a long foot rub where she fell asleep several times but when I asked if she was she kept insisting she was awake. Finally, I couldn’t hold it anymore and I tried to move my way up, but she was considerably turned over and closed off. She thanked me kindly for the foot massage and I knew this was my last chance; I had to pull my Hail Mary even though I knew what it meant: I asked if she wanted to have sex. I got a sorry but confident ‘no’. I didn’t know how to control myself, internally I panicked; externally I could not hold my disappointment and resolved myself to the shower where I knocked out the testosterone surely but shamefully. When I got out she was still awake and asked if I was feeling better. I said I wasn’t, that I was feeling hurt and rejected. That woke her up fully and infuriated her. She said I sounded desperate and I admitted I was, I was tired of lying about it. She hinted I sleep in another room, which I left to do, but that made things worse and she came in to tell me a minute later. I followed her back explaining why I was upset I felt teased (though carefully not using that word specifically) and that’s when her anxiety peaked. It’s happened before and it’s always nasty: the ‘**** you’ and ‘shut the **** up’ hurt, especially because she very rarely curses, but it’s the crying that hurt most. I hurt her feelings big time, she would take no soothing and I fell asleep next to her trying to figure out how I could have handled it better. About an hour later I must have started snoring because she kicked me out (common scenario) and this morning she suggested we find help or we’re done.

I have never had an affair and never attempted one. Any inklings of interest women have shown me over the years (which are few and far between) have been shut up by my lack of interest and faith in our marriage. I would never even consider it now with the lack of physical attention I’m feeling. I try to tell her once a day how good she looks or how much I like what she’s wearing. I try to give her a solid day/half-day on the weekends to have some time for herself (I spend my free time at night after she’s fallen asleep; 9pm typically) [for the record, when she does take me up on time out for herself she usually goes shopping for the kids or family, not herself—its part of her anxiety and I wish she would do more for herself but I love her for it]. I try not to tell her how sexually charged I am at any given moment (and it really is any moment) so I can give her peace, but when I can’t control how I’m feeling, she loses all sense of peace and I bear the guilt of putting our family on the brink of dissolution. 

Thusly, I looked up a psychologist online in my area that deals with relationships and intimacy problems and booked an appointment this week. I will share this posting with them because I don’t think I could explain my situation clearly face-to-face without setting the stage. In summary, here’s what I strive for: I need to figure out how to change my sloppy patterns for the sanity of my family, control my caveman-like urges and show my wife (without touching) I how much I love her so she understands how I really feel.


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## 225985

You sound VERY normal to me. I disagree that this is just your problem. 

Your wife needs therapy. 

If she refuses, and i assume she will, you have to decide if this is the life you want for the rest of your life. If not, you have choices to make.

What med is your wife talking for anxiety?


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## tropicalbeachiwish

I'm not sure why you were attempting to soothe HER. How does she expect you to feel after being rejected by her? What does she say when you tell her that your needs aren't being met?


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## WorkingOnMe

Your last sentence just screams pure nice guy. Anyway I suggest you take her up on her power play bluff to split.


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## Tron

You are in a "sexless marriage" and being rejected in pretty cruel fashion. Your needs do not register on her "to do list". 

Simply put, you are a doormat. 

Acceptance of that and a simple, "Based upon the fact that my needs don't seem to matter in this marriage, I'm starting to agree that separation is the way to go" might do wonders for you. 

Then make it happen. It is time to quit giving without getting. Stop giving her massages. Move out of the bedroom. Start saying "no". Put her needs on your list of "things not to do". Focus on the kids and make the separation real.


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## farsidejunky

OP, you realize her threat to separate and / or divorce is emotional blackmail, right?


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## Tron

"You will accept being treated this way or I will divorce you."

How do you feel about that 6sticks?


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## 225985

Your only need for counseling is to understand why you put up with this. 

That is not an insult 

Please explore that in your first session. You seem to believe you are not worthy of happiness or reciprocal love.


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## arbitrator

* @6Sticks ~ you absolutely did the right thing!

Keep us posted on your sessions! IMHO, they can't do anything but help your sanity!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 6Sticks

Thank you for all the replies and support! I have read your comments and I expected most of them as they fall in line with the rest of the threads. I feel seeing a specialist is the best thing for me to do right now because emotionally I'm losing my mind and I need to gain my self-respect back. I am 180'ing as best I can and it works for as long as I can keep it up, but I have broken from it every time in the past when things get really stressful.

In response to being treated like a doormat, I never really considered that and still not sure I do in retrospect. She is on medication to control her thyroid (as someone asked), which I understand after spending time on this site is quite common for women after children, and her levels have been reading normal for quite a while now. Her condition has improved but she still does not sleep well at night, either because of my snoring or I come to bed late or her body chemistry or all three. She works full time, is a devoted mother but the day-to-day routine physically exhausts her. When I do something that hurts her feelings (reminder: forgetting things she told me, not communicating feelings, leaving little messes after being reminded not to, etc.) I emotionally exhaust her. I wear my heart on my sleeve (obviously) but I've never really connected with my emotions - unless I write it all out to organize them.

The sad thing is that I do not believe her past threats to file for divorce are bluffs. I think she feels I don't care about her and she needs to move on with her life. I believe it terrifies her as well but she's always had a strong constitution and would act quickly if she felt I wasn't supporting the way a partner should. This comes back to having to deal with my issues of rejection, sympathizing with her anxiety and how to handle it all sanely without boiling over. Whether it is divorce or mutual understanding (or both) I fear my emotions will get the best of me when she's ready to talk. 

I plan on sticking to that appointment tomorrow.


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## farsidejunky

Her divorce threats...

If she DOES NOT mean it, she is bluffing at the expense of your emotions because she knows it gets to you

If she DOES mean it, she is is not at all invested in the marriage and is waiting for you to screw up sufficiently enough to send you on your way.

No matter which it is, calling her bluff is the single best thing you can do. However, don't call her bluff unless you are prepared for her to walk, because even if she is bluffing, she will continue to do so until the 11th hour.

Never...ever...ever play brinksmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.


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## WorkingOnMe

Whatever it is you think you're doing....it ain't the 180. Sorry. Just keep in the back of your mind: there are no foot rubs in the 180.


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## turnera

I see quite a few things that you could be handling differently. First, get treated for the ADD. I have it and it really does a number on you. Affects lots of things. And, as you can see, affects your ability to 'be there' for your wife. 

Have you read His Needs Her Needs? I suggest you do asap; it will explain to you about how you each have needs and how they should be met, if you want to stay in love. And it will explain about Love Busters, things you do to each other to hurt one another.

You'll also need to read No More Mr Nice Guy to see how you're leeching into Nice Guy territory (being afraid to tell her your truth). We can help you stop those actions.

Rubbing her feet is fine - occasionally. Every other day? Hell, no. Not unless she is doing the same thing for YOU. It sounds like you married a princess and the only way to deal with a princess is to be a king. You know, the guy who makes the rules and isn't afraid to enforce them? Women ONLY respect strong men, and it sounds like you've drifted so far away from strong that she no longer sees you as a 'man' but rather a roommate. And never EVER ask her if she wants to have sex. Pick her up, carry her to the bed, and have your way with her. I'm serious.

And the only space you're 'allowed' to call your own is the garage? Time to turn your attitude around, dude. You're PAYING for that house she claimed as her own and you meekly went to the garage like a good puppy. Unless you are both ok with that arrangement, STOP ACCEPTING IT!

Are you spending 10 hours a week together DATING? Just talking about your day over a cup of coffer? Walking? Washing a car together? Going out to dinner? How can she stay in love with you if you're not dating her?

Her inability to O is probably related to all this stuff so, for the time being, stop obsessing about it. If you want sex, lock the door and do it. Try to give her some pleasure but if she's not into it, move on (for now). Make sure you're getting enough that you don't turn this into your Achilles heel. And THEN focus on making it better.


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## 6Sticks

No, what I had been doing was not the 180 but only implemented it since hitting my lowest so going on about 36 hours now. I feel fragile but trying to stay strong. 

Thank you for the book advice; I went ahead and sent for those through my library (all available too!) and I will read them ASAP (got an eAudioBook download for NMMNG). 

We don't date much (maybe go out once a month; no close family, few available, trustworthy babysitters) and she complains about the lack of romance I show her. If romance is picking her up and carrying her to bed it's usually too late by the time there is any opportunity and I've been rejected no matter how manly or tough I get (the toughness always offends her). At night she's usually so exhausted from her day that after dinner she just wants to binge TV and fall asleep (I usually make sure the kids are washed, brushed, read-to and tucked in at night and she does the morning wake up kids, dress them, feed them, take them to school, pick them up every weekday). The only romance that ever stuck with me was writing and touching, but the inspiration to write is blocked and the touching is working against me. 

I really sound pathetic; I realize this. Still trying to 180, I just need to remember to stay calm, assertive and positive when the disappointment discussion begins.


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## 6Sticks

Ok, just failed at 180; so much for being on track for a full 48 hours. 

Things were holding steady until dinner time and she came out from our room after I served dinner to the kids and asked if I made anything for us. I said no, to make something for herself and she started saying things like "good to know for next time" and other intentionally hurtful comments about how I don't care for her (she made dinner for me on Sunday night which was very nice but this was also the same night/day that I mentioned in my first post and my mind was occupied, not very hungry, and I didn't eat much of it). She used it as an example and I blew up from doing 180 into a 360. I make most dinners when we don't go out or order in. I tried to 180 back into it but I lost control. I kept calm but she didn't want to be around me. I acted pathetic again and I feel like crap. I don't know how to break out of my destructive patterns without it exploding in my face.


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## turnera

6Sticks said:


> We don't date much (maybe go out once a month; no close family, few available, trustworthy babysitters)


It's ok. Most people who come here are full of excuses, too, lol. 

Seriously? Few trustworthy babysitters? How would you know? What steps have you taken to find them? Agencies? Churches? Friends' recommendations? Angies list? Care.com? nextdoor.com? A dozen other websites?



6Sticks said:


> she complains about the lack of romance I show her. If romance is picking her up and carrying her to bed it's usually too late by the time there is any opportunity


More excuses. And you haven't even started implementing our advice yet; of course you can't just carry her to the bedroom right now. You're a doormat who frankly disgusts her right now. You have a LOT of work to do first before she'll even remember she used to be attracted to you, let alone care about being attracted to you. Read NMMNG before you do ANYTHING. You will understand.

If she complains about the lack of romance you show her, what are you doing about it? What does romance look like to her? You should know that, you're married to her. Or do you two never talk to each other?



6Sticks said:


> and I've been rejected no matter how manly or tough I get (the toughness always offends her).


What are you talking about? What toughness? What does that even mean? Are you talking about during sex? You realize that is NOT what we're talking about, right? A strong man never has to use force. Never has to be mean or tough. Never raises his voice. Because he is SECURE in his manhood. In his desirability. In his ability to weather any storm. In his lack of need to get something from her, because he's complete with or without a woman.



6Sticks said:


> At night she's usually so exhausted from her day that after dinner she just wants to binge TV and fall asleep (I usually make sure the kids are washed, brushed, read-to and tucked in at night and she does the morning wake up kids, dress them, feed them, take them to school, pick them up every weekday).


Isn't she a SAHM? What the hell does she have to be exhausted about, since you're the one doing all the work from the time you get home from work? And then giving her footrubs every other night? And backrubs? 

How fast CAN you read NMMNG? 

How about when she just wants to binge TV and fall asleep, instead YOU sit down on the couch and ask her to give the kids their baths? The fact that YOU are the one working full time and THEN going home and working all night while she has every day off from 7 to 3 IS YOUR WHOLE PROBLEM.

Do you see that yet?



6Sticks said:


> The only romance that ever stuck with me was writing and touching, but the inspiration to write is blocked and the touching is working against me.


More doormat talk. Read the book.


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## turnera

6Sticks said:


> Ok, just failed at 180; so much for being on track for a full 48 hours.
> 
> Things were holding steady until dinner time and she came out from our room after I served dinner to the kids and asked if I made anything for us. I said no, to make something for herself and she started saying things like "good to know for next time" and other intentionally hurtful comments about how I don't care for her (she made dinner for me on Sunday night which was very nice but this was also the same night/day that I mentioned in my first post and my mind was occupied, not very hungry, and I didn't eat much of it). She used it as an example and I blew up from doing 180 into a 360. I make most dinners when we don't go out or order in. I tried to 180 back into it but I lost control. I kept calm but she didn't want to be around me. I acted pathetic again and I feel like crap. I don't know how to break out of my destructive patterns without it exploding in my face.


By going to therapy to learn how to love and respect yourself.


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## 225985

Everything your wife is doing is calculated and manipulated. 

The sooner you understand that the quicker you will find a solution. 

The solution is not to change her but to change YOU. 

She will change once you do. If not, you will be strong enough to find a partner worthy of you. 

Just keep repeating "Everything my wife says and does is to manipulate me"


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## turnera

I disagree. Women - especially selfish women, or princesses - are very likely to turn into his wife and it has nothing to do with manipulation. It's a direct response to being put on a pedestal, not having to be responsible for 50% of their lives, and having a man who keeps putting himself further and further into doormat territory. 

I don't know how many times I've said it, but it never changes:

Women have to have strong men.

Or they become unhappy, bitter, snarky, mean, cold, and uninterested.

I'll bet if she saw you packing a bag, she might wake up.


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## 6Sticks

turnera said:


> Isn't she a SAHM?


No, she works full time, gets up at 5am and gets home with kids around 5pm. She works in the opposite direction from my office and our kids go to the district she works in. I sympathize and admire her busy schedule (working women are sexy to me); she's done it since before we met (sans kids of course). My schedule has always been more flexible with work remote options. She works in the public sector and doesn't have those kind of options.

I respect your directness in calling out my excuses (some comments sound like my wife would have made them to another man in my situation) and the time to respond. I've made a lot of excuses for myself as I attempted to answer posted questions. Here's another excuse for you: the web babysitters won't fly with her; she has too much anxiety over trying out strangers with our kids. I tried it once and she cancelled it the same day; anxious about the freaks (we live in a big city). We take advantage of the local, once-a-month youth center night out for parents and have great dates where my thirst for lust is usually quenched. This last one and the one before we had to cancel because one of our kids was sick.

Romance to her? Little surprises like flowers sent to her office or love notes worked in the past, but not often for getting her turned on where I can just take her. Getting someone to watch the kids away from home has been the surest bet, going away somewhere for a night even better. 

I will start listening to NMMNG on a long walk tonight. Thanks again for trying to put my ass in gear, I really appreciate it and I'll get back to you & thread later.


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## WorkingOnMe

She hasn't earned romance yet. I suggest pulling away.


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## turnera

Ok, so not a SAHM. But why do you have to do all the work when you get home if you both work? This is something you can start changing NOW. When she plops down on the couch, hand her one of the kids. Tell her you're going out for a trip to the bookstore or something. Right this off-balance ship.


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## 6Sticks

About 2 & 1/2 chapters in to NMMNG and it's definitely hitting home. I am nice and always wanted to be nice so I hide suppressed feelings to make my wife happy and make excuses for myself to make my wife think I'm perfect and like me. I haven't even reached the improvement chapters but wanted to thank you for the reference. Going to fall asleep to it now...


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## Satya

Stop engaging her passive put downs. 
Ignore and shut up. 
Telling her to make her own dinner was good. You should have left it at that.

You are not her emotional punching bag. You are a human being with needs and you're going to learn to stop being sorry for them all the time. 

Put your big boy pants on and get ready to file. The threat of divorce is not to be taken lightly.


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## 6Sticks

Satya said:


> Stop engaging her passive put downs.
> Ignore and shut up.
> Telling her to make her own dinner was good. You should have left it at that.
> 
> You are not her emotional punching bag. You are a human being with needs and you're going to learn to stop being sorry for them all the time.
> 
> Put your big boy pants on and get ready to file. The threat of divorce is not to be taken lightly.


Agreed, I need to stop seeking her approval. It's not easy for me to swallow but I'll push it in counseling today. I've been like this all my adult life, seeking the approval of women, so it will take time to transit to seeking approval for myself. For instance, I need to learn to control my outbursts and reactionary behavior and just learn to take control.

I realize now a large part of my original posting was to seek approval from this community. Typical "nice guy" scenario, but at least I have learned something since then.


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## turnera

Once you finish those two books, here's another great one before I forget it. I bought it to give to my H (to teach him how to be a better husband, lol) and I read it first. It's an easy read and makes SO much sense. It's basically about honoring your wife and kids but also honoring yourself and making sure you get some "me" time in your life, as it helps you keep a mental balance and not become either a doormat or a selfish jerk. 

Hold on to Your NUTs Audiobook | Wayne M. Levine | Audible.com

The author also does a lot of coaching and stuff you might benefit from. Look him up.


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## farsidejunky

N.U.T's is a great book. Get it.


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## 6Sticks

turnera said:


> Once you finish those two books, here's another great one before I forget it. I bought it to give to my H (to teach him how to be a better husband, lol) and I read it first. It's an easy read and makes SO much sense. It's basically about honoring your wife and kids but also honoring yourself and making sure you get some "me" time in your life, as it helps you keep a mental balance and not become either a doormat or a selfish jerk.
> 
> Hold on to Your NUTs Audiobook | Wayne M. Levine | Audible.com
> 
> The author also does a lot of coaching and stuff you might benefit from. Look him up.


Just same-day'd the paperback on Amazon (along with a hard cover of NMMNG).

How well have the adjustments stuck with your H since he first read it?


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## turnera

Oh, I never gave it to him, lol. Once I read it, I realized that the issues discussed had nothing to do with him (he has no problem getting what he wants out of life, lol), I never passed it on.

Something else you need to remember is that you can't make your partner want to do anything. You can WISH they would, you can ASK them to, but if it's not what matters to THEM, you'll never see the change.

That's why we push so hard about you fixing YOU. Hoping and waiting for something from your spouse is futile and damaging. You can, however, adjust YOUR life so that, to her, it becomes more advantageous to come around to your way of thinking, so that she then gets what SHE wants.

Example, I asked my H to help more, to (upon my IC's request) pick ONE chore he'd be responsible for, so I could have a bit of a mental respite. I asked, he refused. And promptly forgot that I even asked. Because it didn't matter to him. I sat, I stewed, and finally I decided that I had to change MY life to help myself and stop waiting for him to care. So I stopped doing his laundry. When he finally ran out of clothes, he blew up at me (remember, I do ALL the chores at home except mowing and changing oil). How dare I not have his clothes ready? I just shrugged and said 'I asked you for help, you refused, so I had to pick something to take off my list to lessen my load; I picked your clothes since it doesn't affect me' and I walked off to work on all my other chores. 

Later that afternoon, I caught him fixing something I'd been asking for for years. So I did a load of laundry. He saw that, and fixed something else. So I did another load. And so it goes.

When it benefits HIM to listen to me and care about my predicament, I get what I need. If you keep her comfortable, meet all her needs, regardless of how she treats you, why should she change?


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## Tron

6Sticks said:


> Ok, just failed at 180; so much for being on track for a full 48 hours.
> 
> Things were holding steady until dinner time and she came out from our room after I served dinner to the kids and asked if I made anything for us. I said no, to make something for herself and she started saying things like "good to know for next time" and other intentionally hurtful comments about how I don't care for her (she made dinner for me on Sunday night which was very nice but this was also the same night/day that I mentioned in my first post and my mind was occupied, not very hungry, and I didn't eat much of it). She used it as an example and I blew up from doing 180 into a 360. I make most dinners when we don't go out or order in. I tried to 180 back into it but I lost control. I kept calm but she didn't want to be around me. I acted pathetic again and I feel like crap. I don't know how to break out of my destructive patterns without it exploding in my face.



Learn to shrug and walk away.

And as for those intentionally hurtful comments, she is provoking you into an argument. And when you respond she gets an emotional charge and further confirmation that you are unattractive and not worth a shag. The best response is "I'm sorry you feel that way" and then treat the comments like water rolling off a duck's back.


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## Tron

turnera said:


> Oh, I never gave it to him, lol. Once I read it, I realized that the issues discussed had nothing to do with him (he has no problem getting what he wants out of life, lol), I never passed it on.


She learned how to grab her own NUTS.


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## Satya

I read NUTS about 5 years ago, for my own knowledge. 

Gives good insight into the kinds of emotionally healthy men women SHOULD be looking for. 

That and NMMNG.


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## 225985

How old are you? If you don't mind telling us.


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## 6Sticks

blueinbr said:


> How old are you? If you don't mind telling us.


39


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## 6Sticks

First session is on the books and paid up.

TL;DR - I have a lot to work on with myself and return next week.

I'm glad I wrote all that out beforehand because it helped organize my thoughts. She had trouble understanding the NMMNG psychoanalysis on myself and encouraged me to see a psychiatrist for the ADD-like behavior I called out from my history. Fortunately, my very good, high-functional ADD friend has been treated for it his whole adult life so I have a reference I feel I can trust.

I cried for a very good part of it: surprisingly, when talking about my past and the love I had for my grandfather (a real take-what-I-want-out-of-life guy who took the time to take me out 1-on-1 and have honest, man-building talks) and not so much the problems I had at home (but also not entirely dry there, either). For the record, my father wasn't absent in my life and he and my mother are still married--he put me to work for him on projects around the house or on the construction job sites he controlled. My father didn't put up with my mom's nagging or passive aggressiveness when it surfaced, not without raising his voice and scaring us with that deep voice of his. That's part of the NMMNG I'm realizing now, too. Us "nice guys" tend to try not to be like the parts about their father that they saw emotionally upset their mother but it's also likely that's what kept them together. And, yes, I see the irony in that attitude with my mom still sticking by him and what I expect from my wife when I don't stand up for myself around her.


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## SunCMars

6Sticks said:


> Ok, just failed at 180; so much for being on track for a full 48 hours.
> 
> Things were holding steady until dinner time and she came out from our room after I served dinner to the kids and asked if I made anything for us. I said no, to make something for herself and she started saying things like "good to know for next time" and other intentionally hurtful comments about how I don't care for her (she made dinner for me on Sunday night which was very nice but this was also the same night/day that I mentioned in my first post and my mind was occupied, not very hungry, and I didn't eat much of it). She used it as an example and I blew up from doing 180 into a 360. I make most dinners when we don't go out or order in. I tried to 180 back into it but I lost control. I kept calm but she didn't want to be around me. I acted pathetic again and I feel like crap. I don't know how to break out of my destructive patterns without it exploding in my face.


This sh!t is so hard.

Marriage is all about compatibility. It really is. You two are not compatible. Wow, what a genius statement this is....not!

Mid life crisis. Do I stay or do I go?

I say go. 

But "I" ain't sh!t. It is your investment egg. Break it? Nope. Already broken. Make an omelet out of it? Maybe.

Finish the cooking, give the egg to another poor sap to eat. Who? Her next man.


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## 6Sticks

My last posting was meant for yesterday afternoon but I forgot to submit. 

There's more:

I took my daughter and son to soccer practice and my wife stayed home and readied dinner. She had been mildly pleasant since they got home but when we returned she was cold, bitter and closed up. Not surprisingly, my copy of NMMNG arrived while we were out and she opened it thinking it might be one of the gifts she ordered for me for Xmas (she plans very, very far in advance, always had and, when ordering off my AMZN wishlist, gifts are addressed to the receiver). I wasn't upset, but I knew immediately why she was. 

Did I address it outright? Definitely not. This was dinner with the family and I was more than ready to show off the "I need to think about myself first" attitude. She sat (more like crunched) at the dinner table, ignored me, ate nothing and drank red wine while keeping the conversation to a minimum with the kids. I was of course fighting that hurt but kept it shut tight and ate all my dinner, even part of hers (it was the most I've eaten in 3 days; I've lost almost 10lbs since). My son went off to get ready for bath and bed and my wife assisted him; my daughter stayed with me and finished eating. About 5 minutes later my wife comes in and calmly tells our 9yo daughter that she's not being quiet and upset because of anything "you or your brother did, you know that right?" My daughter is a sharp kid and when my wife went back to our room I looked at her with a "what can you do? life goes on" look. She pointed to me with her hand by her chest and had a deer-in-headlights look on her face, as if to say: "this is scary and I'm helpless" 

When everything was cleaned up and the kids were put to bed I calmly confronted her in our bedroom (where she was working) with the book in hand and a shared a calmly-planted comment that "our daughter understood the context of your apology to her". Before letting her react I showed her the book I knew she opened and felt so hurt from the title (can you say, "don't judge a book by its cover?"). I told her I was going to read to her some selected parts, no more than 30 seconds worth, to set her straight on what a "nice guy" I really was. She wanted no part in it; she just wanted to finish her work. I told her I wasn't going to let her sleep tonight if she didn't hear what I wanted her to hear. She said, "fine, later than when I'm done". So I did what I was planning on doing anyway, next to her, while I waited for her to finish: I listened to another chapter of NMMNG. When she closed her computer I could see her reaching for the remote and I stopped her. She let me read the headlines from the first segment that outlines what a "Nice Guy" is. For the uninitiated, these are all bad, no-so-nice traits. I closed the book and explained I need to work on myself which meant being honest with her about my secreted needs. She already felt like she does too much, like buying the women in my family Xmas presents every year was her current example. I asked her what that was worth to her and if she could come up with something equivalent for me I'd tell her if it was fair trade. I think that threw her off, because she could not think of a thing. 

She soon admitted she was more upset that I would jump into these lifestyle changes without any thought of her or the family and leave her to do everything (as if I'd be out drinking or fornicating instead of spending quality time with our kids)! I told her to wait and see. I got up, brushed my teeth, took a shower and went to bed.


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## turnera

Very nice. I would only warn you not to try to 'jump in' to new ways of doing things until you've read the whole book (and HNHN as well).


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## Hope Shimmers

6Sticks said:


> My last posting was meant for yesterday afternoon but I forgot to submit.
> 
> There's more:
> 
> I took my daughter and son to soccer practice and my wife stayed home and readied dinner. She had been mildly pleasant since they got home but when we returned she was cold, bitter and closed up. Not surprisingly, my copy of NMMNG arrived while we were out and she opened it thinking it might be one of the gifts she ordered for me for Xmas (she plans very, very far in advance, always had and, when ordering off my AMZN wishlist, gifts are addressed to the receiver). I wasn't upset, but I knew immediately why she was.
> 
> Did I address it outright? Definitely not. This was dinner with the family and I was more than ready to show off the "I need to think about myself first" attitude. She sat (more like crunched) at the dinner table, ignored me, ate nothing and drank red wine while keeping the conversation to a minimum with the kids. I was of course fighting that hurt but kept it shut tight and ate all my dinner, even part of hers (it was the most I've eaten in 3 days; I've lost almost 10lbs since). My son went off to get ready for bath and bed and my wife assisted him; my daughter stayed with me and finished eating. About 5 minutes later my wife comes in and calmly tells our 9yo daughter that she's not being quiet and upset because of anything "you or your brother did, you know that right?" My daughter is a sharp kid and when my wife went back to our room I looked at her with a "what can you do? life goes on" look. She pointed to me with her hand by her chest and had a deer-in-headlights look on her face, as if to say: "this is scary and I'm helpless"
> 
> When everything was cleaned up and the kids were put to bed I calmly confronted her in our bedroom (where she was working) with the book in hand and a shared a calmly-planted comment that "our daughter understood the context of your apology to her". Before letting her react I showed her the book I knew she opened and felt so hurt from the title (can you say, "don't judge a book by its cover?"). I told her I was going to read to her some selected parts, no more than 30 seconds worth, to set her straight on what a "nice guy" I really was. She wanted no part in it; she just wanted to finish her work. I told her I wasn't going to let her sleep tonight if she didn't hear what I wanted her to hear. She said, "fine, later than when I'm done". So I did what I was planning on doing anyway, next to her, while I waited for her to finish: I listened to another chapter of NMMNG. When she closed her computer I could see her reaching for the remote and I stopped her. She let me read the headlines from the first segment that outlines what a "Nice Guy" is. For the uninitiated, these are all bad, no-so-nice traits. I closed the book and explained I need to work on myself which meant being honest with her about my secreted needs. She already felt like she does too much, like buying the women in my family Xmas presents every year was her current example. I asked her what that was worth to her and if she could come up with something equivalent for me I'd tell her if it was fair trade. I think that threw her off, because she could not think of a thing.
> 
> She soon admitted she was more upset that I would jump into these lifestyle changes without any thought of her or the family and leave her to do everything (as if I'd be out drinking or fornicating instead of spending quality time with our kids)! I told her to wait and see. I got up, brushed my teeth, took a shower and went to bed.


I'm no expert here and maybe I'm wrong, but I would think it would be more effective if she was sort of blindsided why you were suddenly making these changes instead of being educated about the book and the fact that you will be making them based on a book you read. It just seems that the former approach (blindsided) would be more powerful because she would be wondering, "WTF?" instead of knowing what was going on and maybe thinking it was a strategy that you were trying.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong; that was just my thought process.


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## 6Sticks

Hope Shimmers said:


> I'm no expert here and maybe I'm wrong, but I would think it would be more effective if she was sort of blindsided why you were suddenly making these changes instead of being educated about the book and the fact that you will be making them based on a book you read. It just seems that the former approach (blindsided) would be more powerful because she would be wondering, "WTF?" instead of knowing what was going on and maybe thinking it was a strategy that you were trying.
> 
> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong; that was just my thought process.


You're probably right, and I thought of that too, but I just couldn't let what happened in front of my daughter get away from me. My anxiety is the highest it's ever been and I'm struggling to keep me under control. My wife's condition is still stand-offish, especially because she's pretty down now after coming home from 90 minutes of traffic and no dinner for her. I feel bad for her (because I've been conditioned as such?) and trying to hold out on checking in on her. I realize how stupid all this is from the outside perspective but have trouble changing what's going on inside me.


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## Hope Shimmers

6Sticks said:


> You're probably right, and I thought of that too, but I just couldn't let what happened in front of my daughter get away from me. My anxiety is the highest it's ever been and I'm struggling to keep me under control. My wife's condition is still stand-offish, especially because she's pretty down now after coming home from 90 minutes of traffic and no dinner for her. I feel bad for her (because I've been conditioned as such?) and trying to hold out on checking in on her. I realize how stupid all this is from the outside perspective but have trouble changing what's going on inside me.


I know, and it wasn't meant as a criticism. Maybe something to keep in mind going forward. It is all really hard. 

If I may share this....

When I read your post above, my first thought was "where are guys like that when I want to find them?" Then I realized that although I have problems dealing with men who jump on me (figuratively, verbally) just for saying something in the wrong tone of voice, I really don't want the other end of the spectrum either. I would not want a man who would put up with behaviors such as cheating. I actually would not want a man who would put up with any kind of my disrespect for him.

If he puts up with me disrespecting him (especially by cheating!!!) then he is not a man to me. I want a man. With boundaries. Who won't put up with crap. Who will (within reason) put me in my place if I go outside of those boundaries. If not, he's a doormat and he's trying to "nice" me and I want an alpha man who will not put up with that crap.

I am a single female about the age of your wife. She may think like me. I think most women do. Something for you to think about.


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## 6Sticks

Hope Shimmers said:


> I know, and it wasn't meant as a criticism. Maybe something to keep in mind going forward. It is all really hard.
> 
> If I may share this....
> 
> When I read your post above, my first thought was "where are guys like that when I want to find them?" Then I realized that although I have problems dealing with men who jump on me (figuratively, verbally) just for saying something in the wrong tone of voice, I really don't want the other end of the spectrum either. I would not want a man who would put up with behaviors such as cheating. I actually would not want a man who would put up with any kind of my disrespect for him.
> 
> If he puts up with me disrespecting him (especially by cheating!!!) then he is not a man to me. I want a man. With boundaries. Who won't put up with crap. Who will (within reason) put me in my place if I go outside of those boundaries. If not, he's a doormat and he's trying to "nice" me and I want an alpha man who will not put up with that crap.
> 
> I am a single female about the age of your wife. She may think like me. I think most women do. Something for you to think about.


LOL, thank you and honestly, I'll take whatever criticism you can give. I didn't post to get validation for my behavior but to get on track to understanding what it is I do that's so destructive to our relationship (hence the thread title and forum topic (we've been making it work with on-and-off happiness for 10+ years)). Your perspective is helpful and I've always felt strong enough to leave her if I learned she cheated on me - after all, getting enough sex is the most frustrating part, to me, of our marriage. Having her enjoy sex or foreplay enough to climax is right up there, too, and I say that selfishly, because *I* want to be a good lover. Trust me, I have done a lot of experimenting (this is how giving long foot rubs got started) over the last 10+ years to give her the same pleasure I take from it EXCEPT for changing my behavior before sexual congress is even in session. Its been a few years since I last remember her climaxing from me and there is no faking it when she does. I'm sure a therapist would try to medicate her for anxiety and get her to relax but she doesn't think her issues are that bad.


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## turnera

IMO, she doesn't trust you enough to be vulnerable enough to climax. That's just my view, anyway.


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## 6Sticks

turnera said:


> IMO, she doesn't trust you enough to be vulnerable enough to climax. That's just my view, anyway.


I would say that's accurate. She hasn't been shy telling me in the past when she doesn't trust me and that's healthier than saying nothing and being passive aggressive or self-destructive, I'm assuming.

I'm taking care of myself more than usual (read that how you will) to keep me from boiling over and I've been reading up on healthy ways to address my personal problems. I'm certain I meet the criteria for adult ADHD, so I really need to get checked out by a psychiatrist, I just haven't found anyone available for new patients in my network, yet. In the meantime I've started running and lifting again and still stepping through the exercises from N.U.T.s and NMMNG. And, of course, I'm sticking to my 2nd psychologist appointment this week. We'll see how it goes but I'm also on the lookout for a closer-to-home, male psychologist with a lot of years of experience (IOW, older than me).

It was a better weekend in the sense that we were respectful of each other and I did not go out of my way to make her feel special or show her extra attention.

The (US) holiday weekend will be an interesting test - traveling to be with the in-laws always spells higher levels of anxiety for my wife. Fortunately, we have our own hotel room while the kids stay the nights with my folks at their house. Any tips?


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## turnera

Maybe just try to imagine what a good, relaxing weekend would look like to her, and find little ways to make that happen, without any expectations. Marriage isn't all about sex. It's about being happy being together. Dating. Look at the city you're going to and find some special things you can do if you get free time. Like Saturday is Small Business Day, where we're all encouraged to shop at mom-and-pop shops instead of big corporate structures; you can have a lot of fun checking out small businesses you'd never otherwise go to.


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