# arguing



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i have been searching for effective arguing strategies and techniques for years now... i have tried damn near every one of them. none of them seemed to work...

i eventually hit on something that let us argue... i know i am probably reinventing the wheel, but hey, none of the MC advice worked us. 

first of all, it wont help with those arguments where you want your spouse feel like crap and yourself to win. however, if your spouse usually tries to berate you all the time, it might help you maintain your sanity. 

the whole point of arguing is so that both of you can come to a resolution that you both accept, is it not? its not to be the right one. if you are trying to strengthen your relationship, putting your spouse down wont help you.

i basically started following a couple simple rules. 

*Rule number One:*
the only thing you can possibly know for sure are things that you have thought, felt, and perceived through a direct sense.
-------as such, any time someone says how they feel, its a completely true and legitimate statement. now, you dont know that they are not lying, but you cant be sure they are lying about how they are feeling. you CAN be sure that they know how they feel.

*Rule number Two:*
because rule number one is inherently true, any time you tell another person how they feel, what they mean, or what they think, it is inherently flawed. since you can only know what you think, it is impossible to know what somebody else thinks.



i explained the two simple rules to my wife and told her that i will start with myself. i would like her to participate, but i cant force her, so i will just tell her how i feel and what i perceive. any time i assumed what she was feeling without her telling me(which is the only way for me to know) then she was to call me on it, i would admit and stop. she agreed to do the same. 

we actually started making a lot of headway just keeping those two things in mind. arguments ended with a better understanding of each other. we do still argue often, but now its not something to be dreaded. its just an indication that we still have something to learn from each other. 






so whats your argument strategy?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

You're a guy. You aren't winning any arguments with a woman. That'd be like a chipmunk challenging an eagle to a flying competition.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> You're a guy. You aren't winning any arguments with a woman. That'd be like a chipmunk challenging an eagle to a flying competition.


i win arguments all the time when it is about how i feel or what im thinking. my wife wins when i think i know what she is thinking and i am wrong.

i guess we usually both win...

my wife actually likes this form of argument. we get to do the whole angry outburst thing and by the end of it, neither of us feel slighted, we both feel validated, and we come to an agreement that both of us can accept.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> You're a guy. You aren't winning any arguments with a woman. That'd be like a chipmunk challenging an eagle to a flying competition.


A ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


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## Gomerpyle (Dec 27, 2013)

We don't argue.

Your first point is commonly stated "feelings are facts". 

I generally frame my wife's feelings as accurately as I can and most of the time I don't ask. I tell her. That's because with a young one they still have this stupid inclination to say that nothing is wrong when they are pissed off about something. But if I am unsure I ask her to help me phrase it correctly.

When I have a difference of opinion, and this sometimes happens with raising children, I just state my position and then I shut the **** up. I never say something twice or demand she agree with me. She will generally think about it for a moment and then tell me I am right. 

That doesn't mean I am right about everything, but that I choose wisely. 

The result is a lot of sex.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

We don't argue, it is immature. An issue comes up, we discuss it and resolve, simple.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

Nobody ever wins an argument. My husband and I do not argue, we haven't for some time now.

I used to hate it when we used to argue, all it bloody does is make you bloody miserable, and makes a horrible atmosphere, and upsets the children with all the shouting etc.

When you really think about it, why do you argue anyway, it really never resolves anything.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Gomerpyle said:


> When I have a difference of opinion, and this sometimes happens with raising children, I just state my position and then I shut the **** up.



Okay, I disagree with this approach. I hear it a lot on these boards, but I really wonder how the wife is going to learn why you think what you think if you don't explain it.

Back in 2003, my dh was against the Iraq War. I did not understand why. I felt really bad for those people living under oppression. We ended up just basically disagreeing.

Well, time has shown him to have been right. And we have talked about it somewhat since. But I really regret that he did not try to teach me why it was a bad idea. Dh has a lot of wisdom, but if he is just going to keep it inside, I will not benefit. I want to learn from him, you know? I want to become wise, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OP, are you familiar with active listening? Google it. It is a great alternative to arguing.

Basically, you just repeat back what your partner has said. She feels listened to and understood, and is more likely to then be willing to hear your point of view. Everybody feels heard, and even if they don't agree, they feel respected.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

OP's wife here:

I think some background info might help. I was raised in a family where disagreements were resolved by holding everything in until you couldn't take it any more then explode on whoever was nearest you. Not QUITE the healthy way to go about resolving things is it?

So my question to all of you then, is if this is the only way a person has been taught to resolve conflicts, how do you go about teaching that person another way to resolve conflicts? Because as OP already stated, MC didn't work for me to understand a single bit on the conflict resolution part.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Akinaura said:


> OP's wife here:
> 
> I think some background info might help. I was raised in a family where disagreements were resolved by holding everything in until you couldn't take it any more then explode on whoever was nearest you. Not QUITE the healthy way to go about resolving things is it?
> 
> So my question to all of you then, is if this is the only way a person has been taught to resolve conflicts, how do you go about teaching that person another way to resolve conflicts? Because as OP already stated, MC didn't work for me to understand a single bit on the conflict resolution part.


Active Listening.

Basically you repeat back to your husband what he has said. You make sure you have understood him correctly. He will usually appreciate that you have taken the time to clarify. Maybe you ask him why he thinks what he does. You listen, and again repeat it back to him. At this point he should feel understood.

At that point you tell him what concerns you have about what he has said. If he gets upset, you stop and repeat his objection back to him. You do this until he calms down and feels understood again. Eventually he is feeling calm, understood, and respected enough to be able to listen to you.

"Seek first to understand, and then to be understood."

Seven Habits of Highly Effective People is probably one of the best books you can read to improve your marriage, or any relationship.

I would also say, if you are in the habit of yelling, or using bad words, or calling names, just force yourself to apologize every. single. time. It does not matter if the other person does or not. You do it. Be the example.

And men, if you read this, know that if you practice the above, especially this last paragraph, it will probably melt your wife's heart and have her eating out of your hand.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> That's what I did in my second marriage, when we, "argued". Sometimes, I would have to take my own little, self-imposed, "time out", if I felt I wasn't understood, yet, and was getting frustrated to the point of exasperation.
> 
> It's important to let the spouse know that you want to take a time out, how long it will be, approximately, and where you are going. Then, it's important to come back in approximately that amount of time, and do your best to revisit the issues. I'm thinking no more than like a half hour or so.
> 
> If you cannot revisit those issues, yet, you need to state that clearly. Then within 1 to a maximum of 3 days, come back and discuss those issues until there is compromise within the relationship. If no compromise can be found, counseling is in order, in my opinion.


When we first got married, I didn't know how to get my point across to him effectively. So I used what I had grown up with to try and do that. It didn't work very well. As'ladain has spent the better part of our marriage teaching me how to do that...to get my point across effectively so that he understands it. As we are right now, this is exactly what we do. We can usually resolve a conflict within 30 mins to a hour if we go our separate ways for about 15 or so minutes when our emotions rise.

My main issue with "Active Listening" is that it starts with an assumption that both parties are calm. It also assumes that the person starting to use the Active Listening techniques isn't going to get burnt out by being the only one doing them. I personally think it doesn't work when of the parties involved is still in the recovering Mrs. Nice Girl stage.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I've had success in using writing rather than talking when dealing with a difficult subject or disagreement. I write and then he writes back, and so forth until we understand each other. 

It helps to take you out of the immediate emotions and be more calm. It also helps by giving you time to think about what you really feel and think and then say it the correct way. I have a habit of speaking from emotion and don't necessarily mean things the way they come out, so it's good for me to have the time to think and choose my words more carefully.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Akinaura said:


> When we first got married, I didn't know how to get my point across to him effectively. So I used what I had grown up with to try and do that. It didn't work very well. As'ladain has spent the better part of our marriage teaching me how to do that...to get my point across effectively so that he understands it. As we are right now, this is exactly what we do. We can usually resolve a conflict within 30 mins to a hour if we go our separate ways for about 15 or so minutes when our emotions rise.
> 
> My main issue with "Active Listening" is that it starts with an assumption that both parties are calm. It also assumes that the person starting to use the Active Listening techniques isn't going to get burnt out by being the only one doing them. I personally think it doesn't work when of the parties involved is still in the recovering Mrs. Nice Girl stage.


Could you elaborate on the last sentence, please?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, there is a lot of cognitive stuff that goes along with that technique, for it to work. You must be mentally and emotionally strong enough to know that you are just as important as your spouse. Your opinion matters, but it's not the only one. Your spouse's opinion matters, too.
> 
> Many of the, "nice guy", techniques are good, but you must be in a place where you can respect your spouse with calm, clear words. If you are not there, working on being a, "harder", woman seems a bit counter to what you need.
> 
> ...


I would like to see it.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on the last sentence, please?


Sure. My husband, for Christmas, got me the book "NMMNG". His thinking was "Gee, my wife fits this profile completely!" and "This book explains everything better than I can". I was raised to be the peacemaker, the one who swallowed her own emotions so that others were happy.

Coming into my marriage with As'ladain, I kept doing that same thing to ensure "marital happiness"...but as it's neatly laid out in the book, doing the same thing as I did in my childhood to ensure everyone else was happy around me doesn't work. But changing your core behaviors overnight isn't possible. I've been doing the same things over and over again for 20+ years. I say I'm a recovering "Mrs. Nice Girl" because I haven't put in place, nor learned how to, integrate better behaviors into my life. Until these behaviors become natural, I'm no different than I was before I started the process, but at least I've made the attempt to start (i.e. "recovering").

So, going back to what As'ladain stated at the beginning of this thread, this is how we've figured out how to bridge the gap between how we resolved conflict at the beginning of our marriage, to where we no longer need to have "yelling fits" to ensure the conflict is resolved.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

norajane said:


> I've had success in using writing rather than talking when dealing with a difficult subject or disagreement. I write and then he writes back, and so forth until we understand each other.
> 
> It helps to take you out of the immediate emotions and be more calm. It also helps by giving you time to think about what you really feel and think and then say it the correct way. I have a habit of speaking from emotion and don't necessarily mean things the way they come out, so it's good for me to have the time to think and choose my words more carefully.


thats something we did too. sometimes we argued through text messages, and that seemed to resolve the arguments faster.

i eventually realized that i can only talk about me. so, if my wife was doing something i didnt like, all i could really do was tell her how it made me feel and let her figure out what to do with that information. so, i stopped assuming what she was thinking. 

so would tell akinaura, "so your not doing this for the reason i thought you were. so why ARE you doing XYZ?"
my wife would tell me,
"im doing this because you told me you wanted more help with XYZ"
as i found, she almost always had a reason.
"i asked you for help, i didn't want you to smother me! your just(rule number two smack down, wife calls me on it)..." 
i would regather my words to say what i really think.

"ok, i get your trying to help, i really do, but it makes me frustrated as hell because it reminds me of the way i felt when i was living at XYZ"

then she could actually ask that golden question in our arguments "well, what can i do to help and NOT make you feel frustrated? im not a mind reader."

so i would think about it and tell her. she is usually quite willing to try things different as long as im not treating her like her opinion doesn't matter.

sometimes, the solution will come from me, and it will be for how i feel. for instance, venting...

my wife is used to "venting". basically, just getting the negative emotions off her chest by speaking them all to someone. problem is, its hard for me to not get bogged down by the negative emotion. its not like she does it a lot, maybe just five minutes after a stressful day, but it was very hard for me to not emotionally respond to it. so, i told her how it makes me feel, and what i would do about those negative feelings. 

if i felt like they were going to get to be so much that it was going to put me in a bad mood, i would tell her to stop talking and give me a break. now, she had told me that she needed to vent, or she was going to let the stuff build up. since it worked for her, i didn't want to take that away from her. at the same time, i couldn't manage my own emotions without finding something *I* could do for myself. its kinda pointless to expect the other person do change what they are doing. all i can really do is change my behavior. she didnt really like the solution, but was willing to work with me until we came up with something better. she still got to vent, and i get to take a break. since we both agreed to it, it stopped being a big issue.

we had a long discussion about what exactly it was that was causing me to feel "down" and eventually came up with ways that allow her to vent in a way that didn't feel so negative to me. 
for instance, whenever she voiced her frustration, she would start to include her plan to deal with it. that made it much easier for me to listen to without getting bogged down.


that one simple rule let us get passed the "argument" and get into a meaningful discussion. it inherently meant that her feelings are completely legitimate, and so are mine. once that was understood, we could get down business and find a solution.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Relationship Article - Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, Stonewalling | The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

The 4 horsemen approach is a good positive way to communicate. IMHO the only healthy way to communicate effectively is in a respectful way, not yelling and arguing.



> According to John Gottman, Ph.D., “The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse” are behaviors that, if they occur regularly, are very good predictors of either a failed or a terminally unhappy relationship. If you discover that any of these occur often in your relationship, you and your partner are most likely heading for trouble. The “Four Horsemen” are:
> 
> Criticism versus Complaint. A complaint addresses only the specific action at which your partner has failed. A criticism is global. It attacks the mate�fs character or personality. Here is an example: Complaint: “There is no gas in the car. I’m aggravated that you didn’t fill it up like you said you would.” Criticism: “You never remember anything! You can’t be counted on for your word!”
> Contempt. Contempt is composed of a set of behaviors that communicate disgust. It includes, but is not limited to: sneering, sarcasm, namecalling, eye rolling, mockery, hostile humor and condescension. It is primarily transmitted through non-verbal behaviors. It does not move toward reconciliation and inevitably increases the conflict. It is always disrespectful. Research shows couples that display contempt for each other suffer more illnesses and diseases than respectful couples.
> ...


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

My H don't yell, call names or curse during an argument he expect the same. Once in a while I do yell or curse (don't call name) but that has been few and far apart. Maybe once or twice earlier this year was the last time. But he will make it clear he not having that because he don't do it. We really don't argue that much anyway.

But here is my problem with arguments/conflicts: my H always seem to be right. Guess it a maturity level that it bothers me he always right. Sometimes he can just make his position clearer than I can.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I think it depends on what people define " arguing " as.

My wife and I have arguments.
Some of them we resolve , some of them we jointly decide that it's not worth arguing over so we just laugh and leave it.
Those are basically the two outcomes.

But for us, arguments are started mostly because of miscommunication and misunderstanding.
Misunderstandings are easily dealt with.we just check the facts.
Miscommunication is a bit tricky because sometimes it's hard tp take responsibility for something that you_ feel _isn't your fault.
Therein lies the tricky part because your / my analysis or right or wrong in that instance is based on our own personal _feelings_, and not facts.
Whenever we have that sort of impasse, we both share the responsibility.

Any relationship where are no disagreements and arguments is not a healthy relationship.It means that the power differential in the relationship is badly skewed in favor of the stronger partner.
Both partners if they are equally matched will have disagreements , because we see things from different vantage points, and everyone has a right to their views.
What is important is_ how _we argue.
Lying , disrespect and passive aggressiveness have no place in healthy arguments.

Also, a certain amount of controlled aggression between spouses is healthy, and does improve the relationship.

It is also good to remember to put each other's feeling first whenever we feel passionate about something and disagreement arise. 


We are only human.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I did some of that. I don't know if your wife wants to know how you would do it or if she is smart enough to figure it out herself? I would think she is. Maybe I'm misunderstanding?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


in the end, yea, she had to change what she was doing so that she could vent. its not a perfect solution...

the problem is, i have offered other solutions, simple things that i could do that would let me emotionally detach myself from the situation, but it made her feel like i was asking her to choose her feelings or my feelings. 

for instance, if i state right at the beginning that it will make me anxious, and am going to emotionally disconnect myself and let her vent, it made her feel like i was asking her to disregard her desire to not make me feel anxious. it would have worked for me, she couldn't fathom doing that. she is not wrong for the way she feels.

one thing we are currently trying is what i like to call robot mode... it means i get to emotionally disconnect myself from the situation, and act internally like i have no feelings. yes, its suppressing my feelings, and in this case, its me that has to change. but, its a solution i came up with, so im happy with it. its a solution i can own. its not easy, but its mine. she has also agreed to try to work on some things herself.

when she asked me how she can approach things differently, she was the one who stepped out and asked me what SHE could do. now, yes i did give her some things that would help me, but she agreed to it because she was the one actively seeking that change. 

its not perfect, but practicing that give and take, where we come up with a solution ourselves while keeping what the other person says about how they feel in mind, we are getting better at coming up with solutions that allow us to feel the way we want.

we keep trading back and forth over this stuff. my goal is to let her express herself freely, and i want to be able to express myself freely. its not an easy goal i think, but im convinced that we can do it. 

like everything about a relationship, if we aren't working on it, we are getting worse.

now i could have just learned how to emotionally disconnect myself from her and never let her know im doing it, but the whole basis for our marriage is complete honesty. i let her know my most guarded thoughts. its not always easy, but this philosophy has taken us from a terrible marriage to a fantastic one.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think it depends on what people define " arguing " as.
> 
> My wife and I have arguments.
> Some of them we resolve , some of them we jointly decide that it's not worth arguing over so we just laugh and leave it.
> Those are basically the two outcomes.


Have you been spying on our marriage? :rofl: 50% of the time we are making the other laugh because the argument is over something stupid. The other 50% of the time we figure out the best solution to resolve it (these are on issues that matter deeply to either of us).



Caribbean Man said:


> Also, a certain amount of controlled aggression between spouses is healthy, and does improve the relationship.
> 
> It is also good to remember to put each other's feeling first whenever we feel passionate about something and disagreement arise.
> 
> ...


This goes right back to As'ladain's Rules #1 and #2. It's kinda elementary school rules all over again, but sometimes the basics are necessary.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> I stopped assuming what she was thinking.
> 
> so would tell akinaura, "so your not doing this for the reason i thought you were. so why ARE you doing XYZ?"
> my wife would tell me,
> ...


This is something I have also found. It doesn't matter how crazy someone's actions seem, it is always logical to the person doing it ... 

A good mindset.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

committed4ever said:


> But here is my problem with arguments/conflicts: my H always seem to be right. Guess it a maturity level that it bothers me he always right. Sometimes he can just make his position clearer than I can.


This is something I myself am having to work on. My husband is extremely smart and so am I (he can quote biology like it's the alphabet and I can make a reactor purr like a cat)...but he can usually state his side of the argument a LOT clearer than I can. 

Not making excuses, but I do have a medical reason for not being able to be more clear about my points, but we are investigating a couple of methods to make it at least easier for me to be clear with him. His favorite method right now is for me to just say "dyspraxia moment" or for him to say it to me when he can spot it. This gives me time to re-collect my thoughts and maybe try a different word choice for effectively getting my thoughts across. It takes a lot of the stress off me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> The Center for Nonviolent Communication | Center for Nonviolent Communication


I did not get much from the site. You said you read a book from there that was helpful?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have no problem winning arguments. Life is about solving problems and moving forward, not about arguing.

If you and your partner argue about every little thing then you're doing it wrong. If you have the energy to argue every little thing then perhaps you should redirect this energy to more productive use.

Pick your fights, ignore unimportant things, and go from there.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

To the OPs:

One model for resolving conflict is: This is how I feel. How do you feel? How can we work it out? 

It sounds like you are using the first two parts of that, and have maybe figured out a way to do the third, at least half the time.

It also sounds like the male OP has a hard time not having an emotional reaction to his wife's venting. After five minutes, he is overwhelmed.

The female OP is reading NMMNG, and finding it applicable and helpful.

You both sound like you are at least somewhat finding your way, though the path is not always as smooth as you would like.

I understand you do not think Active Listening is helpful, but I think if the male OP could start reflecting the feeling when he gets overwhelmed by his wife's emotion, he could avoid absorbing her feeling, and thus getting overwhelmed. It sounds like he takes her feeling personally, and that is why he is getting overwhelmed.

You have both said you are intelligent people, and another poster mentioned that there is no need for the husband to try to solve the problems of his wife, that she is capable of solving her own. 

Again, I think just repeating back to her what she is saying would probably help her resolve the situation all by herself. The female OP could also try to just repeat what she thinks back to herself. Sounds corny, but it can work, lol. But it can really build a marriage to do it as a couple.

I think you are both kind of annoyed with the active listening approach, so I won't say anymore about it. Best of luck with resolving the Nice Guy/Gal issues, and with handling the emotions while doing so.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

In response to the what is our argument strategy . . . 

Well, it used to be temper tantrums on my part. I would get mad at dh for something and start to scream and call him names and say bad words. And he would stand there and either be silent or occasionally tell me to change my tone of voice. And that would make me even madder and I would scream louder.

After a minute or so, I would just give up and go lie down on the bed. Dh would wait a little bit and then come in and either just lie down beside me, or talk to me. Usually he would reflect the feeling. I would be annoyed at first, but then start responding. Eventually, with enough active listening, I would start to warm up and calmly say the things I had been screaming before. Sometimes we could not resolve the issues (I was mad about the country we were living in), but at least I felt heard.

We would finish by my apologizing for what I had said.

Dh is not emotional. It is not like he never raises his voice, but he is pretty calm. It could be that that is why active listening works so well for us, and why I promote it so much.

It also works really well with our kids. Actually, nothing else works as well. We do not punish very often, and I think it is because active listening really resolves conflict well. If conflict is resolved, I don't usually see a reason for punishment. Like other posters have said, everybody has a reason for what they do.

Lately dh has been using active listening really effectively with his boss. She is very bright, but very nervous. Sometimes her emotion overcomes her reason. Dh has found that just repeating back to her what she is saying, just calms her right down. He said it is like completely turning around the conversation. When she is calm, he can present his concerns to her and together, with her emotion put aside, they can just use their intellects to solve the problems.

I can't say enough about active listening and how helpful it has been to us.

But I am intrigued by how it may not work for people, and I would be interested in hearing from more people for whom it has not worked, and why.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> There was a book I read yes. It was interesting. The technique actually worked when put into practice.
> 
> There should be one listed there, somewhere.


Okay, thanks. I went back to look for a book list, but did not see one. But thanks anyway for mentioning the site. I am sure it is a helpful organization.

If you happen to remember the title of the book, please let me know. I would love to learn more techniques for dealing with conflict. 

Thanks again.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> In response to the what is our argument strategy . . .
> 
> Well, it used to be temper tantrums on my part. I would get mad at dh for something and start to scream and call him names and say bad words. And he would stand there and either be silent or occasionally tell me to change my tone of voice. And that would make me even madder and I would scream louder.
> 
> ...


believe it or not, active listening is something that we do now.

im not sure how i could show my wife that i am listening to her and validating her feelings without showing her that i hold her feelings to be important to me. since i hold them to as valid as my own, i HAVE to listen to them in order to come up with a solution. 

im not just waiting to speak, i am taking her feelings into consideration. i often repeat her words back to her before i speak without even thinking about it, mainly because i focus on how she feels so that i can find a way to come up with a solution that works for her. 

i was ignoring the active listening bit because i already do it a lot.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> believe it or not, active listening is something that we do now.
> 
> im not sure how i could show my wife that i am listening to her and validating her feelings without showing her that i hold her feelings to be important to me. since i hold them to as valid as my own, i HAVE to listen to them in order to come up with a solution.
> 
> ...


That's great, As'laDain. I'm sorry if I made you feel defensive.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Back in 2003, my dh was against the Iraq War. I did not understand why. I felt really bad for those people living under oppression. We ended up just basically disagreeing.
> 
> Well, time has shown him to have been right. And we have talked about it somewhat since. But I really regret that he did not try to teach me why it was a bad idea.


As an Iraq War veteran myself, I assure you time hasn't "shown him to be right".... but I'll refrain from hijacking the thread arguing that here. Will be glad to do it in PM though


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i basically started following a couple simple rules.



Your two rules are not bad at all.

Two that I would add to it:

1. Stay on topic. Don't bring up arguments in the past, or other things that have annoyed you about your spouse. That tends to spin arguments off in unending spirals.

2. Avoid the words "always" or "never", such as "you always criticize my driving" or "you never appreciate me". Those words are absolutes, and usually not true.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Theseus said:


> Your two rules are not bad at all.
> 
> Two that I would add to it:
> 
> ...


I love these two rules...we'll have to add them. Both will take us a couple of "arguments" to work out the kinks of how specifically to word 'em.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> jld,
> 
> I didn't say it didn't work for me. It did work for me. It didn't work so well for my x2. It helped me to stay with whatever was bothering her that she wanted to talk about. Some things were aggravating because I wanted a little more information. I didn't understand what she wanted me to do, but I knew she wanted me to do something. *You just kept reflecting it back to her, as long as she kept talking? I know it can take a long time, really until the other person is calm and is ready to listen to you.*
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying, 2ntnuf.

I am still intrigued by how active listening must not be the magic bullet for other people that it has been for us. Sometimes, when I start yelling at dh, and just feel like I can't stop, I'll practically scream, "Reflect the feeling! Reflect the feeling!" 

For us, active listening is like a life preserver dh throws me after I have fallen into the ocean. It's like a piece of candy when someone is going into diabetic shock, or an antidote shot when someone has been bitten by a snake. It truly is that powerful for me.

I'm wondering if the difference here is that dh is not very emotional, and does not take what I say personally. Maybe with two emotional people, it is just much, much harder.

Thanks for helping me learn more about this, and best wishes to all.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> "Nonviolent Communication, A Language of Life", Marshall B Rosenberg, Ph.D.
> 
> I have an older edition. It's the 2nd edition. It was still relevant for me.


Thank you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Theseus said:


> As an Iraq War veteran myself, I assure you time hasn't "shown him to be right".... but I'll refrain from hijacking the thread arguing that here. Will be glad to do it in PM though


LOL. I'll have to let you and my dh hash that one out.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> That's great, As'laDain. I'm sorry if I made you feel defensive.


its cool 
i dont really get too defensive anymore. i have accepted that people have no idea what goes on in my head unless i tell them, and the only thing they have to work off of is what i say.

:smthumbup:


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Glad to read this thread and dig the guidelines from Theseus.

Arguing... we don't yell at one another or say things to intentionally hurt one another but we disagree. Since our relationship went through a bit of a revival, we likely disagree more than we have before. It's been more honest and refreshing. 

For a long time, I didn't realize that I'd grown apathetic. I thought I was just choosing my battles. He viewed me (perhaps rightly so) as disengaged. In our early years if we argued, I'd end up going for a drive or walk to listen to music as a way to process what was happening. It allowed me space to consider a different perspective but in doing so, wasn't allowing him in to be part of that. I've had to learn how to resist the urge to leave/retreat and instead keep communicating. I've calmly verbalized when I start feeling backed into a corner, and my urge to go, but that I want us to keep talking. It's my way of sharing where I'm at and communicating a need to change our approach. 

Where I'm at, is to keep expressing myself. This has been good for him too. We had a disagreement yesterday. He suggested something to which I replied "Maybe.." and unintentionally went quiet. He asked why I'd shut down. I didn't realize that I had; was just considering what he'd said. I shared with him my thought-process and what I was considering. We got out of the car, stopped at a cafe and were still talking/disagreeing. It was on topic but expanded to our specific personality traits and behaviors. We kept talking, being open with one another. I mentioned how I (negatively) felt with the approach he'd used. He mentioned how he felt I'd shut down. Surprisingly, he then said perhaps he needed to be more aware of how he communicated such things so that I still felt supported and maybe he didn't need to be so stubborn. I acknowledged that I need to keep talking and sharing how I'm feeling in the moment. 

When the cafe kitchen closed the window near us, we had a laugh; they must have been sick of hearing our sh*t. All this stuff though, keeps bringing us closer. It can feel awkward in the moment but I do see that it's healthy. I'm more open than I have been before. I think it builds greater trust between us. Who'd have thought?


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

jld said:


> I am still intrigued by how active listening must not be the magic bullet for other people that it has been for us. Sometimes, when I start yelling at dh, and just feel like I can't stop, I'll practically scream, "Reflect the feeling! Reflect the feeling!"
> 
> For us, active listening is like a life preserver dh throws me after I have fallen into the ocean. It's like a piece of candy when someone is going into diabetic shock, or an antidote shot when someone has been bitten by a snake. It truly is that powerful for me.
> 
> ...


jld, it's taken me the better part of the afternoon to see if I could actually explain why Active Listening isn't working for us right now. So I'm gonna at least try to explain...if it's too confusing, just let me know, and I'll clarify if needed.

Merriam-Webster defines a paradigm as: a theory or a group of ideas about how something should be done, made, or thought about. 

As Robert Glover explains in his book "NMMNG", this is a way to describe how people look at the world around them. This is how they solve problems, deal with new information, how they operate within relationships, etc. At the heart of it, for Nice Guys/Nice Girls, they (and me) are using broken paradigms that cannot effectively deal with the outside world. When a person is presented information that conflicts with their paradigm, the usual reaction to throw that information out or become extremely defensive.

For me right now, I'm still working a little bit with that broken paradigm and any new information or techniques cause me to become automatically defensive. Right now, I'm not needing validation of my thoughts or words (they aren't coming out right anyways) but validation that my feelings are 100% correct and ok. The goal is a new healthy paradigm that allows for techniques like Active Listening to actually work for me. Until then, we're working with a half healthy/half horrible paradigm in my head, lol.

The rules that As'ladain laid out to begin with work for me because they aren't conflicting with my original "broken" paradigm, but also allow me to shift away from it to a more solid and healthy paradigm. My initial stance to disagreements is no longer the automatic defensiveness because my viewpoint on life is being challenged, but one of more open-mindedness. To mimic a Disney character: "This is my mind...it's a little broken and small, but still good. Yeah, still good."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Akinaura said:


> jld, it's taken me the better part of the afternoon to see if I could actually explain why Active Listening isn't working for us right now. So I'm gonna at least try to explain...if it's too confusing, just let me know, and I'll clarify if needed.
> 
> Merriam-Webster defines a paradigm as: a theory or a group of ideas about how something should be done, made, or thought about.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you are making good progress, Akinaura. I wish you and your husband all the best as you bravely tackle these challenges.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i was thinking about it...

i think the two rules would work well for adopting.
i could be wrong, but i think that teaching children that their thoughts and feelings are legitimate is a good place to start.

i plan on adopting as soon as i can, so i have been thinking about all possible scenarios, problems i will have to deal with. 
ill probably end up with children that suffered abuse of some sort... i really have no idea how to help them, other than the things i have learned from helping those close to me who have suffered abuse.

looking back, it always seemed that those who are abused feel like they are wrong for how they feel. when you think about it, we see a lot of that here on TAM. how often have we heard someone ask if they are wrong for feeling hurt or suspicious. 

if they lived by the two rules, then they would already know that they are not wrong for what they feel. it would give them validation for their feelings, so that they know themselves and are not ashamed of themselves. 

i really want to be able to help someone who is hurting in a way that means something. i cant pity someone... but i can tell them that it is ok to feel what they feel.


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