# Those of you with WS, did they ever come to understand that they are bad human beings



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I get that some peoples take is that they are still good people and they just did a bad thing, or they are sick, but that is not my take. I am curious if any other WS actually ended up thinking the way I do that they really were just bad people.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

in my case, no.

i had two ex's. that cheated on me. 

in the one case, when i confronted her, she got mad at me and tried to re-direct the blame on me.
she never did apologize, although she did show some remorse/guilt. eventually we parted ways and now she's gone from this world.

in the other case, she was absolutely unrepentant and is to this day, years later.

my conclusion based on experience and observation?

it takes a relatively healthy person with a deep moral conviction to admit that they are deeply flawed. they can say it, but their actions and attitudes speak otherwise.
the vast majority of cheaters are not healthy, seriously flawed and also serial cheaters. there are rare exceptions.

in my case, i admit i ignored the red flags.


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## Ralph Bellamy (Aug 8, 2016)

Nope. They also tend to come from toxic families that will justify any bad behavior to reaffirm their confirmation bias that their family are "good people." See also Hillbilly Elegy. See also 'Murica.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

No, my ex is pretty convinced that I'm the evil one. If I had been more X or less Y, then my ex wouldn't have had to cheat, blah blah blah blameshifting. I knew all throughout the marriage that introspection was not a strong suit there, so I am not particularly surprised.

My ex was Catholic, so when I asked about that whole pesky commandment breaking thing, the answer I got was "God wanted me to fall in love again." Later, it turned into "I'm not really into that stuff (religion) anymore." My ex would rather stop believing in God than admit being bad.

Whole lot of cognitive dissonance going on.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> I get that some peoples take is that they are still good people and they just did a bad thing, or they are sick, but that is not my take. I am curious if any other WS actually ended up thinking the way I do that they really were just bad people.


No because most WS are ordinary people who just did a bad thing. Now, I am excluding the serial cheaters that have to start numbering the OW or OM.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

I think my W does at times feel the enormity of what she did to me, not in a way to make a confession, but there is a feeling of regret. That feeling of regret coexists with a feeling of justification and a family trait of avoiding direct admissions.

In a very heartfelt way once during prayer she told me "I'M GUILT" with no further elaboration.

What I want is the confession however so that I can decide what to do with the marriage and OM. 

I don't view her as a bad person for doing what I could have done, but many of the consequences have up to now been avoided.

Tamat


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

People are, and rightfully, judged by their actions. A person who did a bad thing is a bad person. If I break your lawn gnome, I owe you a lawn gnome. If I'm remorseful, I still owe you a lawn gnome.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

My take is that we are humans capable of many things, mostly good and sometimes very cruel, vile and evil too.

I'm not one that is with you on the idea that WS are just bad people. We are all human and capable of doing a lot of damage, especially the so called people we LOVE. 

We are at the top of the animal kingdom and yet humans are one of the cruelest creatures this Earth has. How many other animals cheat on their partner, dump them, and then blame it on the betrayed partner? How many simply just abandon even their younglings? We are most certainly very cruel, cruel individuals. It is part of the human makeup that comes from being emotional, rational creatures!


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't have a WS but I'm the daughter of one and I don't think it's an either/or situation. I think there are WS that are remorseful, (we have them here on TAM), my Dad cheated on my mom, he was remorseful and they reconciled and have been married for 53 years. On the other extreme, there's my ex SIL. She is incapable of admitting any wrong doing or apologizing. She's a master at DARVO. Looking perfect at all times is most important to her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Where's the line, I wonder? There seems to be no shortage of members here who think that infidelity crosses that line - that you are no longer guilty of having done a bad thing, but are an inherently bad person. 

I don't subscribe to that motion, but then I have a dog in the hunt. I don't feel like I'm a bad person. I feel like I ****ed up, repented, and did my best to fix the damage. Am I cut from the same cloth as a serial murder? A rapist? A child molester? You decide, I guess. 

As for the propensity here to make sweeping generalizations about any population, please. Come back when you have your dissertation in hand with data sets and analysis backing up your claim about "most" of anything.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Not really sure what my ex wife thinks of herself. It stopped being my concern the moment we divorced.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Let me clarify, I don't mean a completely bad human being I mean in this instance they were a bad human being. To me this is what is needed to have a true R. I do believe people can do good and be good in other ways. I also believe people can change and be better human beings. My own father cheated. In this respect he is a bad human being. He was still a wonderful father to me, I wouldn't want to be married to him though.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> As for the propensity here to make sweeping generalizations about any population, please. Come back when you have your dissertation in hand with data sets and analysis backing up your claim about "most" of anything.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> No because most WS are ordinary people who just did a bad thing. Now, I am excluding the serial cheaters that have to start numbering the OW or OM.


See I see cheating closer to emotional rape. I couldn't say that is just a bad thing.


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## Justadude (Aug 6, 2012)

Some are bad human beings some are not. However it is my personal experience, and along with getting to know a good dozen or more people who have been cheated on over the last several years….that most likely the cheater has a personality disorder. Those people are toxic and are truly damaged, and bad people. But some are people who for some reason or another got involved with another person. To me a big difference between the two sets of people is repentance. If the person is sincerely regretful, and remorseful they may well not have a personality disorder.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Most people do both good and bad things in their lives. Opinions vary on the seriousness of various offenses. For some people cheating is a horrible crime, never to be forgiven / forgotten, for others is is wrong, but forgivable.

Rape, assault, theft, adultery, blasphemy, cowardice, etc. Different people will put these in different orders of severity.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

My opinions have evolved and continue to evolve as I learn more.

I watched a TED talk (recommended here) about surviving infidelity that often arises after a big life event like illness or death of someone close. That was followed by reading exactly that on TAM. So thee is anecdotal evidence that there is something there. Is it a common response? Idk. Are the people changed in some way? Idk. Are their perceptions - and therefore their values - changed in some way? Idk. But I do know the mind is complex, and it only takes a break in one part to result in unusual behavior.

And if that is true, then is it solely a character issue? I don't think so. I think it is a breakdown if boundaries or standards or values... or the opposite and the elevation of a need or want or desire... that changes the equation.

If we don't cheat because if boundaries, respect for our partners, self respect, moral views, etc., then what happens when one part of the equation breaks?

So now I think there are nuances to consider. The why or what precipitated it becomes more important. Will it happen again? Maybe not, if it's caused by this more complex set of circumstances.

None of this impacts the BS though and I'm sure the pain and betrayal is unchanged.

But your question was narrower. And so my answer used to be that only bad people do bad things. Now I believe many good people can become bad people in certain circumstances. And it's possible for them to be good again one day. But in the throes of it they are being bad to their spouses


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I am a serial wayward and I don't see myself as a bad person. Based on what I read about serial waywards one would think that I would lie cheat and steal in everything that I do, and even kick puppies, but that isn't the case at all. What I am is a lousy husband if you place any kind of importance on fidelity. But not a bad human being, I know many will disagree.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I don’t think I’m a good person at all for cheating. I think I am very flawed, I have a lot of baggage, most days I feel like the one time I did a “bad” thing outweigh the multitude of good I’ve done in my life – and there has been a lot. Even though I have not actively “been bad” for over 3 years now, that black spot on my heart that happened over the course of one evening outweighs my other 37 years and 364 days I’ve been alive. To me – and probably many others – I’m scum. I’ll always be a bad person (in my eyes) for what I did that night, I doubt that I’ll ever ‘get over’ what I did. Especially knowing how much I hurt my husband. No human being deserves that.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I have never met a "good person" really. Every person I know is flawed...as it should be. We are all imperfect and we all mess up from time to time, but as long as we acknowledge our wrongdoings and make amends for them, we should give grace and receive grace in kind. My ex-wife is not a bad person. She is a selfish person who will keep fvcking up as long as she remains selfish. 

But there are inherently evil people in this world: mean-ass, criminal, amoral people who have no regard for others. But not all of these people cheat on their spouses. Being a bad person and being adulterous are not mutually inclusive.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I don’t think I’m a good person at all for cheating. I think I am very flawed, I have a lot of baggage, most days I feel like the one time I did a “bad” thing outweigh the multitude of good I’ve done in my life – and there has been a lot. Even though I have not actively “been bad” for over 3 years now, that black spot on my heart that happened over the course of one evening outweighs my other 37 years and 364 days I’ve been alive. To me – and probably many others – I’m scum. I’ll always be a bad person (in my eyes) for what I did that night, I doubt that I’ll ever ‘get over’ what I did. Especially knowing how much I hurt my husband. No human being deserves that.


I disagree. I think you are a good person. You're a good person who went stupid for a brief period of time and is now trying to make amends. Those are not the traits of a bad person.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> My opinions have evolved and continue to evolve as I learn more.
> 
> I watched a TED talk (recommended here) about surviving infidelity that often arises after a big life event like illness or death of someone close. That was followed by reading exactly that on TAM. So thee is anecdotal evidence that there is something there. Is it a common response? Idk. Are the people changed in some way? Idk. Are their perceptions - and therefore their values - changed in some way? Idk. But I do know the mind is complex, and it only takes a break in one part to result in unusual behavior.
> 
> ...


Do you feel this way about other things. Like say a parent dies do you feel that abdicates someone of there responsibilities if they rob someone? If not why is cheating different. My point is why is it only in this one instance that life changing events are seen as a excuse to do wrong.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I don’t think I’m a good person at all for cheating. I think I am very flawed, I have a lot of baggage, most days I feel like the one time I did a “bad” thing outweigh the multitude of good I’ve done in my life – and there has been a lot. Even though I have not actively “been bad” for over 3 years now, that black spot on my heart that happened over the course of one evening outweighs my other 37 years and 364 days I’ve been alive. To me – and probably many others – I’m scum. I’ll always be a bad person (in my eyes) for what I did that night, I doubt that I’ll ever ‘get over’ what I did. Especially knowing how much I hurt my husband. No human being deserves that.


That attitude to me is the only one worth risking R for.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I disagree. I think you are a good person. You're a good person who went stupid for a brief period of time and is now trying to make amends. Those are not the traits of a bad person.


I struggle with that. I see it more as a bad person with good traits. “Hey, I’m a murderer, but before I killed 5 people, I rescued abused puppies!” I don’t know. I don’t know that you get to the point that you feel you’re a good person again. Good people don’t hurt their loved ones. They don’t sh*t on their vows because they get caught up in the attention some idiot was giving them. They just don’t DO those things. I can give you a million reasons why I’m flawed and have baggage. Maybe my dad didn’t love me enough, I was raped, molested. My husband never told me I was pretty. Sure, there’s things that damaged me before I did this. Maybe they split me into the good side and the bad side. But even if that’s the case, the bad STILL took over. I can say til I’m blue in the face that I don’t want to BE that bad person anymore. And I will never BE. There’s just no way I could. But it doesn’t erase what I did. I carry that evil part of me every day. I guess it’ll just always be part of who I am.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I struggle with that. I see it more as a bad person with good traits. “Hey, I’m a murderer, but before I killed 5 people, I rescued abused puppies!” I don’t know. I don’t know that you get to the point that you feel you’re a good person again. Good people don’t hurt their loved ones. They don’t sh*t on their vows because they get caught up in the attention some idiot was giving them. They just don’t DO those things. I can give you a million reasons why I’m flawed and have baggage. Maybe my dad didn’t love me enough, I was raped, molested. My husband never told me I was pretty. Sure, there’s things that damaged me before I did this. Maybe they split me into the good side and the bad side. But even if that’s the case, the bad STILL took over. I can say til I’m blue in the face that I don’t want to BE that bad person anymore. And I will never BE. There’s just no way I could. But it doesn’t erase what I did. I carry that evil part of me every day. I guess it’ll just always be part of who I am.


Good and Bad aren't infinite definitions. I was talking about in the context of the actions and time the actions were being performed. I believe you are your actions, if your actions are good, then you are a good person.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to trigger you.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Good and Bad aren't infinite definitions. I was talking about in the context of the actions and time the actions were being performed. I believe you are your actions, if your actions are good, then you are a good person.
> 
> I'm sorry I didn't mean to trigger you.


No triggers. It’s something I’ve been struggling with for a year now and actually voiced to my husband a couple of weeks ago.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I struggle with that. I see it more as a bad person with good traits. “Hey, I’m a murderer, but before I killed 5 people, I rescued abused puppies!” I don’t know. I don’t know that you get to the point that you feel you’re a good person again. Good people don’t hurt their loved ones. They don’t sh*t on their vows because they get caught up in the attention some idiot was giving them. They just don’t DO those things. I can give you a million reasons why I’m flawed and have baggage. Maybe my dad didn’t love me enough, I was raped, molested. My husband never told me I was pretty. Sure, there’s things that damaged me before I did this. Maybe they split me into the good side and the bad side. But even if that’s the case, the bad STILL took over. I can say til I’m blue in the face that I don’t want to BE that bad person anymore. And I will never BE. There’s just no way I could. *But it doesn’t erase what I did. I carry that evil part of me every day. I guess it’ll just always be part of who I am*.


Okay...that's a packet of bullsh*t. You are talking about maybe 5% of the totality of your behavior throughout your life. That is not fair to yourself and it is disingenuous.

Let me ask you something LH: who do you measure yourself against? Is there a person in your life, someone you admire and look up to, who you hold yourself up against for scrutiny? Someone who you are constantly comparing yourself to?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> No triggers. It’s something I’ve been struggling with for a year now and actually voiced to my husband a couple of weeks ago.


If it makes you feel any better you and a few other posters on here and SI have changed my attitude on the fact that some people change. You and carpenoctem on SI are two that comes to mind.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Okay...that's a packet of bullsh*t. You are talking about maybe 5% of the totality of your behavior throughout your life. That is not fair to yourself and it is disingenuous.
> 
> Let me ask you something LH: who do you measure yourself against? Is there a person in your life, someone you admire and look up to, who you hold yourself up against for scrutiny? Someone who you are constantly comparing yourself to?


Consciously? No. Maybe the “me” before I did this. It’s hard not to think of how happy I was before I did that. Life wasn’t perfect, but it was livable. And my good days were much better. These days a good day is a day that I don’t think too much about what I did, my kids are happy, my husband laughs with me and I don’t feel like everything is out of control. Back then a bad day was when I didn’t get enough sleep or missed my work out. I’ve lost a lot of respect for myself and life in general in the last 3 years.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

​Some years ago (seems like forever ago), I went through some management training for my job at the time. Much of it was pretty campy, but one of the concepts that stuck w/ me involved the idea that one should separate comments or criticism regarding behavior from those regarding core character or personality.

Admittedly, I'm not always the best at this.

Still, I recognize the following:

1. Good people do bad things. 

2. Bad people do good things.

3. For as long as one does bad things, is stubbornly unrepentant w/ respect to his or her poor behavior, and makes no effort to both turn away from and atone for the behavior, he or she is -- _w/ respect to *at least* that facet of his or her life_ -- a bad person.

But here's the thing -- each facet of your life has the potential to impact every other facet of your life... as well as the lives around you.

For example, being a bad spouse _can_ mean that you're a bad parent, and vice versa.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> Consciously? No. Maybe the “me” before I did this. It’s hard not to think of how happy I was before I did that. Life wasn’t perfect, but it was livable. And my good days were much better. These days a good day is a day that I don’t think too much about what I did, my kids are happy, my husband laughs with me and I don’t feel like everything is out of control. Back then a bad day was when I didn’t get enough sleep or missed my work out. I’ve lost a lot of respect for myself and life in general in the last 3 years.


Are you being objective about who the "prior you" was? Because the prior you is the one who cheated.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Are you being objective about who the "prior you" was? Because the prior you is the one who cheated.


I mean prior me, damn near up to that night. Cheating had never been in my head. Thought of, acted upon and if you woud’ve told prior me that I would’ve done that I would’ve punched you in the face. That’s been part of my confusion this last three years. The question that’s in my head most often is “How could you have done this? WHY did you do this?” I don’t even understand it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I mean prior me, damn near up to that night. Cheating had never been in my head. Thought of, acted upon and if you woud’ve told prior me that I would’ve done that I would’ve punched you in the face. That’s been part of my confusion this last three years. The question that’s in my head most often is “How could you have done this? WHY did you do this?” I don’t even understand it.


You are wrong LH. The attitudes and behaviors and lack of boundaries that the "old you" had were exactly what led you to drop your guard and do what you did. You cannot separate who you "used to be" and the person who cheated on her husband. All those poor coping mechanisms were there, embedded and ready to fvck your world up. 

The very fact that you are in pain and struggling now is because you are working on yourself, calling yourself out on your own bullsh!t, and attempting to become a far better person than the one you were before. The old you lacked self-awareness and accountability, which are two traits you have now. It is these new traits you are struggling with, and they are what are causing this funk of self loathing you are experiencing at the moment. 

I think you need to get yourself into some counseling and guidance to help you through this transition.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> No, my ex is pretty convinced that I'm the evil one. If I had been more X or less Y, then my ex wouldn't have had to cheat, blah blah blah blameshifting. I knew all throughout the marriage that introspection was not a strong suit there, so I am not particularly surprised.
> 
> My ex was Catholic, so when I asked about that whole pesky commandment breaking thing, the answer I got was "God wanted me to fall in love again." Later, it turned into "I'm not really into that stuff (religion) anymore." My ex would rather stop believing in God than admit being bad.
> 
> Whole lot of cognitive dissonance going on.


 @Hopeful Cynic She was probably expecting God to punish her. When she remained -as she thinks- unpunished, she decided that God did not exist.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay, before I cheated, I had baggage from physical abuse as a child and PTSD, I was codependent, and I did not really believe I was lovable or valuable. I dealt with that baggage, but I did not realize I still had other flaws to address. My "before I cheated" self was honest, kind, happy and I'd say a good person in my core--meaning that my True Self is pretty peaceful, gentle, and content.

While I was cheating, my character flaws were made plain. While I was cheating I was dishonest, unkind, angry and a bad person. 

I saw the error of my ways and addressed the character flaw that lead to it. In addition, I now understand that I may have little flaw-time bombs that I need to be aware of and address. So to use a term from another thread here on TAM, I learned to "Mate Guard" my own self. 

Now I am back to the core person that I am--meaning that my True Self is honest, generous, optimistic, and I'd say a good person. The difference between my "before I cheated" self and my "after I cheated" self is that in many ways I'm still who I am, but I am no longer codependent, I no longer view myself as unlovable as a default (I struggle with that one all the time), and I no longer avoid personal responsibility. I grew up. I learned to face myself--even my scary, less-good side--and be honest that it is there and that I change those parts of me if I deal with them. 

So nope--I do not think of myself as "a bad person" because I cheated. I think of myself as a human being who is growing and maturing as I age.


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## Citylinesox (Jan 31, 2015)

What is WS?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Citylinesox said:


> What is WS?


WS = wayward (i.e. cheating) spouse

Give this a quick look...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/464-common-message-board-abbreviations-acronyms.html


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## Citylinesox (Jan 31, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> WS = wayward (i.e. cheating) spouse
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks so much.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I imagine it must be quite comforting to imagine that only bad, wicked, toxic people cheat on their spouses.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I don’t think I’m a good person at all for cheating. I think I am very flawed, I have a lot of baggage, most days I feel like the one time I did a “bad” thing outweigh the multitude of good I’ve done in my life – and there has been a lot. Even though I have not actively “been bad” for over 3 years now, that black spot on my heart that happened over the course of one evening outweighs my other 37 years and 364 days I’ve been alive. To me – and probably many others – I’m scum. I’ll always be a bad person (in my eyes) for what I did that night, I doubt that I’ll ever ‘get over’ what I did. Especially knowing how much I hurt my husband. No human being deserves that.


I've heard you call yourself scum on here repeatedly. 

Stop it, really, don't do it again. 

Please look at yourself in the mirror every day and remind yourself that you are a good person, worthy of being loved. You have low self esteem, I understand, that's my core issue. But until you get past that, you will have unnecessary problems in your life with relationships.

That's why I grit my teeth whenever this topic of cheater=bad human comes up. I do get it....betrayed spouses are hurt badly. And that simplifying how you were hurt makes it easier to deal with. But human emotions and actions are really complicated things, with a lot of if, ands, or buts....

I really am not trying to justify any actions of a ws........just trying to convey how, at least for many who fail in life, how incredibly complex the path to ultimate failure is. I think many ws were never just looking for a hookup . It started with simply caring for another human being in the best of ways, and then not seeing the boundary on that as time went on. But my post was really for LH...,,,sorry to intrude here. 

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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I haven't witnessed it myself but my parents did notice when they saw my XH that he looked very hangdog and sad. But being sad about the consequences of your actions isn't the same thing as owning responsibility for them. He hasn't admitted to date that he ever cheated. So I doubt he'll ever say he was in the wrong. It's a pride thing.

I have reached a place where I don't let anything he thinks or says have an emotional impact on me. At this point it wouldn't change anything for me if he admitted what he did and owned up to being a s%(&. I'm proud to be at this point, because for the first few months of separation I HATED him and wished he would just put me out of my misery and confess. I have examined my own behavior in the marriage so I can figure out what to do differently next time e.g. Don't ignore the red flags!! Focus on building my own social sphere so there's not so much pressure on the marriage to tick all the boxes. I could go on and on. But you get the point. The best result for me at this point isn't gonna be him admitting to being a bad person. It's going to be my moving on. With or without someone special outside of my little one.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> _*I am a serial wayward*_ and I don't see myself as a bad person. Based on what I read about serial waywards one would think that I would lie cheat and steal in everything that I do, and even kick puppies, but that isn't the case at all. What I am is a lousy husband if you place any kind of importance on fidelity. But not a bad human being, I know many will disagree.


In that case your username is really confusing...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> I imagine it must be quite comforting to imagine that only bad, wicked, toxic people cheat on their spouses.


I don't think that. I do think that the cheaters who don't ever reach that epiphany that what they did hurt someone, or care about it are the wicked people though. The ones who don't say "that was terrible I'm never doing that again" are the toxic people.

If you're so selfish that you'd put your sexual gratification above your integrity, then yes, you ARE bad. If you can hurt and betray the person you swore to protect and love in the pursuit of your own sexual interests, and keep doing it when you realize the damage it did, then yes, you ARE bad.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

joannacroc said:


> In that case your username is really confusing...


Yeah....well...didn't think so before. But...there is something to that once a cheater always a cheater thing when it comes to serial waywards. It may take years. But it will happen again.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> *I am a serial wayward* and I don't see myself as a bad person. Based on what I read about serial waywards one would think that I would lie cheat and steal in everything that I do, and even kick puppies, but that isn't the case at all. What I am is a lousy husband if you place any kind of importance on fidelity. But not a bad human being, I know many will disagree.


You still are? Did you let another woman shoot your wife?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> I imagine it must be quite comforting to imagine that only bad, wicked, toxic people cheat on their spouses.


I believe the actions make them a bad person at the time. I believe true remorse comes with acknowledging that fact.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

@LosingHim didn't your husband cheat first?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> My opinions have evolved and continue to evolve as I learn more.
> 
> I watched a TED talk (recommended here) about surviving infidelity that often arises after a big life event like illness or death of someone close. That was followed by reading exactly that on TAM. So thee is anecdotal evidence that there is something there. Is it a common response? Idk. Are the people changed in some way? Idk. Are their perceptions - and therefore their values - changed in some way? Idk. But I do know the mind is complex, and it only takes a break in one part to result in unusual behavior.
> 
> ...


Infidelity occurs due to one of two reasons...

1) A lack of integrity
2) A lapse in integrity

...and there the list ends.

If a given person commits infidelity as an indirect result of the death of a parent, the loss of a job, his or her favorite football team losing the Super Bowl, or whatever, then it follows that he or she isn't possessed of the integrity, character, or whatever you want to call it necessary to avoid committing infidelity in the face of such emotional trauma.

It really is that simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> While I was cheating, my character flaws were made plain. While I was cheating I was dishonest, unkind, angry and a bad person.


But you did see yourself as a bad person then you changed, and that is my point. I would think it is the rare person that does. This is why I think for the most part it is a bad idea to R. It takes this level of remorse to actually do the hard work.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Infidelity occurs due to one of two reasons...
> 
> 1) A lack of integrity
> 2) A lapse in integrity
> ...



Cause they wanted to and were selfish. No one who is married and said the vows cheats without knowing it is wrong.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

A lot of cheaters are narcissists, who lack empathy and the ability to self reflect. I have read a few threads on here where the WS seemed remorseful, and reconciliation was possible because they owned what they did. But those seem rare.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I'm reminded of the story of king David. He cheated with Basheba and then perpetrated the death of her husband. Doesn't get any worse than that.

And yet he was knocked into his senses and repented bitterly for his crime.
He is still called a 'man after Gods own heart'.
A Great title indeed.

There is redemption.

it's all in the attitude.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't think that. I do think that the cheaters who don't ever reach that epiphany that what they did hurt someone, or care about it are the wicked people though. The ones who don't say "that was terrible I'm never doing that again" are the toxic people.
> 
> If you're so selfish that you'd put your sexual gratification above your integrity, then yes, you ARE bad. If you can hurt and betray the person you swore to protect and love in the pursuit of your own sexual interests, and keep doing it when you realize the damage it did, then yes, you ARE bad.


But some people *do not* cheat for sexual gratification!

They cheat for other reasons, such as an emotional connection lacking in their marriage. For example.

However, their AP often expects sex as part of their reward for giving them the emotional connection they crave and once sex becomes a part of an affair it's awful hard to get rid of it without the whole affair blowing up.


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

This is a very interesting thread! 

Do I think people who cheat are necessarily bad humans? No. If I did, I would not have given my ex a second chance after he cheated on me the first time. I think many people who cheat are narcissists, however. This opens up a whole different arena. 

My ex and the OW had an ongoing affair for YEARS. She flaunted it in her town that was hours away from me, and my ex stole time from me, from our marriage, and worst of all, from our family to be with her. I should have been freed from my marriage a good ten years before it finally ended and given a chance to start over when I was younger. Not kept trapped in a marriage that they both knew was over, but no one bothered to tell me. 

THAT makes my ex a bad human, and his girlfriend just as bad. They will never see it, however, because they do not see the world that way. Their framework is built to justify all of their actions, and they will always find a way to think they still look good.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Do you feel this way about other things. Like say a parent dies do you feel that abdicates someone of there responsibilities if they rob someone? If not why is cheating different. My point is why is it only in this one instance that life changing events are seen as a excuse to do wrong.




That's not what I said. I didn't say anything about abdicating responsibility - those are your words and your thoughts.

I also didn't talk about excuses.

You seem to equate infidelity = bad personal and understanding or trying to understand behavior = not holding someone accountable or responsible.

Those are all independent things.

I believe a person can do a bad thing and there could be reasons to shed light on how they changed to cause that decision to be something not bad enough to not do. Why is that? I believe that is something worth understanding, if we want to be as safe as possible in our relationships.

Attempting to understand does not mean I wouldn't hold them accountable. But it might mean I could accept an answer of "I really don't know why" if I understood people sometimes respond this way given certain life stresses. That's important because in most cases "idk" simply doesn't cut it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> I'm reminded of the story of king David. He cheated with Basheba and then perpetrated the death of her husband. Doesn't get any worse than that.
> 
> And yet he was knocked into his senses and repented bitterly for his crime.
> He is still called a 'man after Gods own heart'.
> ...


Sucked to be Basheba's husband though. All he got was killed.

You also kind of left out the part where David's child from this sin died, and his other son tried to kill him. He whole family was destroyed by violence. His sin was exposed and known throughout history for the whole world to see. There son that lived was the heir was wise but also a hedonist. Still David got the better deal. She didn't protest either. Nothing ever changes does it. The BS always get's the sh1t sandwich.


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## DoneThinking (Aug 31, 2016)

To be clear, I am an atheist and a Reconciling BS. My ww cheated when she was overwhelmed emotionally, physically and financially. I was so ill I had no clue what was happening. She held it in for two years, when I found the evidence in a file on our shared computer. My ww is not a bad person, or an evil person but she was lost and without the normal underpinnings a married woman might depend upon. No family to hand, no job, a husband who was both ill and difficult to live with and very little that was positive at the time. It was hard on both of us.

She was defensive for a while, defiant even, but as she broke down and came clean, in the face of insurmountable proof she started the pattern of regret, remorse and started working on making it up to me.

Was she a bad person, I can't think so, or being with her would be untenable. Was I a bad husband, I'm not perfect, ASD and had let myself go, but I was doing the best I could at the time.

Her AP had the good grace to drop dead the month the affair ended.

We are a little better then two years in. It sucks. She is doing most of what she can to help, but now it is her turn to be ill and in pain. Her condition has isolated her from her friends and our family. She might see it a Karma, for brining the damage and pain down on me, but it's not. She feels that she is a bag of [email protected]#! and the lowest scum on the earth. There are days she is afraid to live. As you have guessed she is extremely depressed. She finds it hard to talk about the affair. She is on antidepressants and a ****tail of other drugs. I'm on antidepressants my self and a few other drugs. 

We have done IC and MC to work on demons I never knew she had.

Its hard. I missed my window to leave and was aware that divorce here would reduce the both of us to living in poverty (50/50 split of one income). She was becoming more and more symptomatic over the years we were trying to R and now she borders on complete disability.

What she did was wrong, she knows and accept that. She realizes that the choices she made were the worst ones she could and she is sorry. She is doing all she can.

Me, as I said I am atheist, but I made vows that I hold to be binding. I have never had the problem with wanting to cheat. I can't see how leaving her at this moment would be morally correct.

Was she a bad person? She was a mother, my lover and wife, the mother of my son and my supporter through some of the worst times in my life. It was awful, painful and crushing, but I have done enough good in my life that I won't judge myself on her failure. She has done enough good in her life to be considered admirable. Our adopted daughter loves her and would be destroyed if she knew.

I am looking at a long road with her, and we limp along, two steps forward and some days one step back. Do I love her?...Yep. Do I owe her?...I think so. Has she hurt me?... more than anyone could know. Will we get over this?...Someday.

Is she a bad person? don't think so. Am I a fool? Maybe.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

@DoneThinking, I think I remember you. What was your old TAM username?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> @LosingHim didn't your husband cheat first?


10 year EA with his ex gf that I suspect went physical at some point but he won’t admit to it and also doesn’t consider it an EA. Swears they were “just talking”. 1600 texts in a months time at one point, secret, deleted texts on his work phone. I have no smoking gun proof but he never stopped contact with her no matter how many times I begged and pleaded for him to.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

This is my opinion and actually may shed a little bit of what played into my decision to reconcile. My opinion is that there are several different degrees to being a bad person. Someone who kills a person intentionally is bad, or rapes, or abuses children. Someone who has cheated could be a good person but had an extremely bad period of time. We as humans are all sinners, we all do something bad in our life that we truly have remorse and regret. 

For this thread we are looking into infidelity, and yes the person is bad during their affair, ONS, or emotional affair. The one single greatest trait a human being possesses is change, we are all capable. As I looked into my situation I noticed my wife changed, she became a bad person during her affair. On her own she stopped the affair, but continued to be a bad person by using deception. 

On d-day was the day she decided to make a change, the day she no longer wanted to be a bad person. She told me the truth, she answered all my questions, it was the first day of her recovering herself. She started therapy, MC, and the changes she began to implement in her life came rapidly. Her remorse came quick and is genuine, she took a hard look at herself, didn't like what she saw, and put all she had in changing. Some WS's are capable of this, many in here have done the same, some cannot, but that doesn't mean they can't change other things in their life.

Atonement for actions is how you would find value in a bad person. Are they sincere, are they working as hard as possible to change, or will they wait until they sit on the chair of atonement with God? My wife is very fearful she will be denied heaven, she thinks her actions are unforgivable. I have forgiven my wife, she can't forgive herself, therefore she thinks God won't forgive either. I have told her that her actions going forward and atoning her sin are the most important work she has to do. 

As for me I try to see the good in people now, something I didn't do previously. I can see my growth from being a bad person to a person who tries to do good. I'm not perfect nor is anyone else, but I'm being the best me I can be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I agree not all cheaters are bad people, and am also one whom believes everyone deserves a second chance (except from pure evil behavior such as murder or rape).
People aren't perfect, we have periods where we do ugly things and regret it later. Happens all the time and will continue to happen so long as we exist.

That being said, I do also believe there is something inherit wrong with betrayal, I think it's on a class of its own and it requires some moral character attributes which aren't present in everyone. This doesn't mean the betrayer exercises these poor moral or character deficit at all times, and they can certainly, thru counseling and therapy, learn to suppress them and don't act upon them. 
However intentionally hurting someone and affecting their life without their knowledge and while they have full trust in you , to me, is something of a class on its own. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

so we might agree that not all people who have cheated are 'bad people'.
some are 'good' people who did bad things.

several people have given great testimonies regarding their own or spouses who cheated but have shown that they can change.
it was a low point in their lives. we have all done things maybe nearly as bad or worse maybe.
we all i think do selfish things. it is just a matter of degree.
doing one really bad thing in your life does not make you 'bad' in the worldly sense.

nevertheless, my observation is that most (but not nearly all) cheaters have serious issues that go beyond their cheating.
again, not those who have cheated once, and moved on from their mistake, but those who have a life pattern.

i don't even know that i would call these people 'bad' but more seriously flawed. even they have redeeming qualities.
my one ex. who cheated on me gave me some of the happiest, sunniest times in my life. i wouldn't trade it.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't think my ex-wife is a bad person. And I'm sure she does not think of herself as a bad person…nor would she ever. She justifies all of her actions and places blame elsewhere if needed. What I think is that she is just the wrong person for me. That’s just as much my fault for ignoring early red flags and choosing her to marry.

She and I don’t share the same commitment to love and marriage. I prefer monogamy, and she obviously does not based on her choices and actions. This has become more and more evident since we split. 

She is currently dating a guy who is cheating on her. She may be cheating on him at the same time (not sure). Either way….. This seems to be the types of open relationships she likes. She seems happy in that type of relationship. 

I am in a committed, monogamous, and loving relationship with a woman that I trust. That is what I like. So I am also happy. 

So who is good and who is bad????? Doesn’t matter. We are just different people who never should have been together in the first place.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

it-guy said:


> So who is good and who is bad????? Doesn’t matter. We are just different people who never should have been together in the first place.


I have been told in here, that for the most part, society at large tends to define levels of tolerable wrongdoings about people in general, whatever that means. In specific, surveys about infidelity have consistently shown strong levels of disapproval from society, and the betrayal aspect more so.

But regardless is ultimately your choice, it's your life.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I have been told in here, that for the most part, society at large tends to define levels of tolerable wrongdoings about people in general, whatever that means. In specific, surveys about infidelity have consistently shown strong levels of disapproval from society, and the betrayal aspect more so.
> 
> But regardless is ultimately your choice, it's your life.


Don’t get me wrong…. I disapprove of her cheating on me. And I will never forgive her for it. Ever… But as time has passed I have started seeing behavior patterns from her that probably existed while we were married. I chose to ignore them at the time because I was in love with who I wanted her to be vs who she was.

I consider that to be a mistake and a fault of mine. And that is something I pay a lot of attention to these days.

I will not tolerate being with a cheater. I have difficulty having friendship relationships with anyone I know has cheated or is cheating. I personally do not accept it, and don’t want it to be any part of my life.


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## DoneThinking (Aug 31, 2016)

Gus: My old user name was Thinkitthrough. Gotta read the rest of this thread.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Failure at something that matters to you can be heartbreaking, but sometimes you can work on yourself and become a better person. Or sometimes you are content with who you are.

When my wife cheated, some of the causes we eventually worked out were things I would never have thought of. Things that in other circumstances were characteristics people admired. For example, an approach to communications where she tried very hard to build up and be supportive of others makes her a very popular person, but it also made it hard for her to confront hard issues in our marriage before they became unbearable to her, and pushed her to infidelity, ironically because she didn't want to hurt me.

"Good" and "bad" are very black and white labels. Yes the affair was bad. Her decisions were bad. Totally wrong. But does that maker her some cardboard cutout bad person? I don't think so. She is a person with good and bad qualities, as most of us are.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

it-guy said:


> I will not tolerate being with a cheater. I have difficulty having friendship relationships with anyone I know has cheated or is cheating. I personally do not accept it, and don’t want it to be any part of my life.


I will forgive if it's a one off, and there is clear remorse. But if it's habitual, I feel the same as you. Because it's then a core part of the person, not a lapse.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I am one of the lucky ones who is still with the WS because he is truly remorseful.

Did he 'admit' he was a bad person? Sure he did. He called himself all kinds of things. Which I couldn't have given two craps about. When he cheated I was DONE. As far as I was concerned he was a complete and utter waste of flesh and I wanted nothing to do with him.

It was only after he got past that phase and started working on himself and becoming a better person that I even considered R. And after I did a whole lot of soul searching. Today it's 6 1/2 years after the first D day and I am really really happy. As I sit here thinking about my marriage I have a grin on my face and am looking very much forward to the weekend when I get to spend all of my time with him 

But I don't think you can just label every WS a 'bad person'. Like someone else said there are shades. Many (most??) cheaters never do show remorse. The world is FULL of a$$holes. There are the rare cheaters who ARE truly sorry and DO truly change and never ever would or do do it again. I don't know if you can call them 'bad people'? They certainly aren't after they've repented.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

it-guy said:


> I have difficulty having friendship relationships with anyone I know has cheated or is cheating. I personally do not accept it, and don’t want it to be any part of my life.


So just curious in your moral stance against cheaters, which I think is totally understandable and justified btw, but how about if one of your own kids (not sure if you have any, so am assuming here) cheats...how would you see your stance under that situation? Am not judging or criticizing at all, just trying to learn here...


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

This whole thread reminded me of one of my favorite novels: Lord Jim.

It's a story of one man who, in a single act of unspeakable cowardice, shows that his belief in his own bravery and honor was all a lie. And he spends the rest of his life under the cloud of that shame, and trying to make amends in some way.

I think it's really a story of the human condition. And I think it would speak at some level to those waywards who are truly remorseful, and who carry the shame of having violated their own belief that they could never cheat. 

(And obviously, it doesn't apply to serial cheaters or those who have no remorse.)

Was Tuan Jim a bad person? Or a good person who lived the rest of his life under the cloud of having done a bad thing?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I know my x never once admitted she was wrong in what she did. As a matter of fact she just sssumed I must have also cheated because her world view is all people cheat lol.

Are cheaters all bad? Evil even? I don't know but I tend to think not. I do thing it takes an extreme amount of selfishness to make vows to someone, swear to be faithful, then screw another guy in the marital bed. But this is only a small part of who we are as a whole. For example my x wife is a good employee. She puts work above family and friends which made her a lousy wife and mother but to her employer she was a star employee and climbed the ranks very quickly, least I like to tell myself that and not that she slept her way to the top which is also a strong possibility. 

She was also a good friend to many, and at times can be a good mom. Having known her since she was 14 I can honestly say the only area in her life she is a complete screwup is when it comes to her role as a partner.... two failed marriages both times she cheated. Guess my point is that's not the total of what she is. If I got a call tomorrow asking about her work ethic for a new job I would tell them to hire her in a heartbeat. If it was a some guy thinking of getting involved with her romantically I would tell him to step in front of a bus instead and same the time.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Wolfman1968 said:


> This whole thread reminded me of one of my favorite novels: Lord Jim.
> 
> It's a story of one man who, in a single act of unspeakable cowardice, shows that his belief in his own bravery and honor was all a lie. And he spends the rest of his life under the cloud of that shame, and trying to make amends in some way.
> 
> ...


From https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/26pf4s/an_irishman_at_the_bar_heavy_npr_listeners_might/...

A backpacker is traveling through Ireland when it starts to rain. He decides to wait out the storm in a nearby pub. The only other person at the bar is an older man staring at his drink. After a few moments of silence the man turns to the backpacker and says in a thick Irish accent:

"You see this bar? I built this bar with my own bare hands. I cut down every tree and made the lumber myself. I toiled away through the wind and cold, but do they call me McGreggor the bar builder? No."

He continued "Do you see that stone wall out there? I built that wall with my own bare hands. I found every stone and placed them just right through the rain and the mud, but do they call me McGreggor the wall builder? No."

"Do ya see that pier out there on the lake? I built that pier with my own bare hands, driving each piling deep into ground so that it would last a lifetime. Do they call me McGreggor the pier builder? No."

"But ya f*ck one goat..."

:lol: :rofl:


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

it-guy said:


> But as time has passed I have started *seeing behavior patterns *from her that probably existed while we were married. * I chose to ignore them at the time because I was in love with who I wanted her to be vs who she was.
> *
> 
> I consider that to be a mistake and a fault of mine. And that is something I pay a lot of attention to these days.


As time passed! Hell it took me 30 years to finally see "behavior patterns" and then I only understood after catching her long term EAPA serial cheating. I married the "prettiest girl in the room", the "little princess", daddy's "little pumpkin". A hard working, good Christian, smiling FAKE. I've come to realize (No offense) that the "Pretty Girls" seem to get a pass on selfishness and vanity. Especially if they understand how to project and blame-shift.

The thread question... Is she a bad person? Yep, she says so. Really doesn't believe she can redeem herself after so many years of cheating and lying. She tries hard, remorseful, but mentally drags a heavy sack of rocks behind her daily ("The Mission", De Niro).


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

If you were to ask, most everyone would say that my H is one of the nicest people you could ever know. He is a good listener to his friends and is always there when anyone needs a hand. He also has a gentle spirit and can be funny. He loves his children deeply and would do anything he could to make them happy, and he is a practicing vegan who abhors factory farming and cruelty to animals. 

The fact that he cheated on me with at least five other women, lied about it for years, and treated me poorly as justification for his actions doesn't change the fact that he can be a very good person. But it did screw me up for years. 

Now I just accept that all people have flaws, some more heinous than others. But it's usually not the totality of who they are. I turned around and had EA's after he cheated, so I know I'm not really morally superior. But I am self aware, which is more than I can say for my H. He still hasn't done the hard work to figure out why he did what he did to me and to us.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> least I like to tell myself that and not that she slept her way to the top which is also a strong possibility.


That was funny, got me a good laugh...sorry I know is prbly not as funny to you.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Sokillme*
> Let me clarify, I don't mean a completely bad human being I mean in this instance they were a bad human being.


I only know one WS real well so this comment is based on my wife…My wife cheated because she allowed herself to be selfish and be weak in integrity. After her cheating she begged for another chance and punished herself for years. *My wife proved her remorse by her ACTIONS for many years and has been a GOOD wife and mother for over 25 years after infidelity.* My wife is very aware that she was “bad” did a “bad” thing many years ago.* My wife is not bad and recovery is possible.
*
Sokillme, I realize that all WS are not the same so that is why I am only speaking for my wife. What is your wife like?


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

I think OP is confusing terrible person with terrible spouse. 

Someone can be a gas chamber attendant and an excellent husband and father. Does that make him a good human being? 

And I'll openly admit I'm a terrible person. But I've never cheated on any my of ex's. Does that make me a good person? 

A WS doesn't mean they're a terrible person. Terrible spouse, yes. And a faithful spouse doesn't mean good person.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr Blunt said:


> I only know one WS real well so this comment is based on my wife…My wife cheated because she allowed herself to be selfish and be weak in integrity. After her cheating she begged for another chance and punished herself for years. *My wife proved her remorse by her ACTIONS for many years and has been a GOOD wife and mother for over 25 years after infidelity.* My wife is very aware that she was “bad” did a “bad” thing many years ago.* My wife is not bad and recovery is possible.
> *
> Sokillme, I realize that all WS are not the same so that is why I am only speaking for my wife. What is your wife like?


My wife is great. Never cheated as far as I can tell. One of the reasons I married her is for her character, it was so attractive to me. I have been cheated on before. This would be my first love, seeing the title of the thread I bet you can guess I ghosted her and haven't spoken to her in over 15 years. If THIS girl who I had proposed to by the way had admitted that she was a bad person at the time, I would have been happy for her because at least then I would have known she would have gotten it. Then I would have promptly never talked to her again. Life's to short.


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## Sinner (Oct 23, 2016)

I have to agree with a lot of the sentiment in this thread that no, cheaters aren't automatically bad by default. I do like to say that they are HUMAN. Good people do stupid things. And it IS possible to love more than one person at a time, most people who have kids will tell you the same... I don't love just one of my kids, I love them both! (And no, that's not an excuse or a justification, it's just a complication!)

Not to say that there aren't cheaters out there who AREN'T bad people... of course there are. But to say that all cheaters are bad is kind of like saying all Christians are perfect. It's just not true. We are all flawed people, every single one of us.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Sinner said:


> And it IS possible to love more than one person at a time, most people who have kids will tell you the same... I don't love just one of my kids, I love them both! (And no, that's not an excuse or a justification, it's just a complication.


Of course it is possible to love more than one person at a time. It happens every day. But when a person is in a committed relationship and they act on their love for another, that's when they show that they are bad human beings. Acting on it, is what makes them a bad human being. No one can convince me differently. Now a cheater can "repent", and be truly remorseful, but for me at least, one the physical fidelity line is crossed there is no forgiveness or redemption.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

You can offer forgiveness and redemption to a cheating spouse and still be unable to stay married to that person or love them the same. Everyone is flawed and all of us are capable of doing bad things. I know that, I've lived it, and so has most everyone else in the world, so I don't believe that cheaters are fundamentally bad people. Deserving of forgiveness? Yes. Deserving of my continued devotion and love? Probably not. Some things can't be undone.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

CantBelieveThis said:


> So just curious in your moral stance against cheaters, which I think is totally understandable and justified btw, but how about if one of your own kids (not sure if you have any, so am assuming here) cheats...how would you see your stance under that situation? Am not judging or criticizing at all, just trying to learn here...


My kids are young. Currently 10 and 13. They know how I feel about cheating though. If one of them cheated on a spouse I would support them as my children, but I would not like it at all. And I would most certainly tell them that I do not like it.

I do know that my father cheated on my mother when I was a child. That little bit of information was shared to me by my mother while I was struggling with my ex-wife early on. In my parents example, they separated for just a few months, and then worked it out. They are still together today about 30 years after that happened. But it really bothers me. I have a good relationship with my father but I honestly wish I had never been told that. Because it causes a pretty bad conflict in my mind. It weighs on me a bit.

As far as friends.... I remove them from my life if at all possible. I have a facebook block list a mile long. And I just stay away from them in person. I cut them off quickly.

My fiancé and I have an agreement that if either one of us ever cheats, we walk away with no chance of R. She is also a BS from a previous marriage. We both have them same 0 tolerance of cheating although she doesn't disown friends like I do.

I will freely admit that my ex-wife cheating, as well as watching countless friends cheated on, has left me extremely bitter and almost damaged on the topic. Divorcing my ex-wife and moving on did improve my life. But this has all really taken a toll on me. It has changed me as a person.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

it-guy said:


> It has changed me as a person.


I can totally relate to that as I feel the same way, and I been in R for over 3 yrs and mostly recovered, but it still it does change you regardless, and I don't like that, no one likes to be changed out of betrayal, in can make anyone bitter, there is nothing wrong in how you feel.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

My D-Day was November 12th 2010. I separated in late 2011. Finally divorced in 2014 (I divorced). I am now in an awesome new relationship with a woman that I feel like I was meant to be with. But.......this crap changes you. I wont ever be the same. For some parts better, and some parts worse.

I guess in the end I live a more realistic life now. No more fairytales. When you have a good relationship, you work your a$$ off every day to earn it. And you appreciate what you have. And you raise your kids as best you can.

People are that.....just people. You can never guarantee that a new partner is never going to hurt you. All you can do, is do your part. Be the best that you can be to your partner. Be the best that you can be to your children. And if you have done that, you know you have at least done your best.

I tell my fiancé almost every day how much I appreciate her. I work hard on our relationship. And she does the same. I see it from her all the time. My kids are also happy. So for now, things are good


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I am a WW myself, and I still struggle with this. We judge others by their actions and ourselves by our intentions and motivations.

Nobody wants to believe that they are a bad person, but I certainly acted like a bad person- or bare minimum, like a seriously irresponsible and utterly insensitive person who cared far less about her husband than her own survival and comfort. 

Like a person who had terrible boundaries and not enough good sense to say, "I have a crush on a guy and now he's trying to get me to leave my husband! I need to RUN FROM THIS CREEPY, CONTROLLING [email protected]!!"

If my husband had done the same thing to me I am sure I would have come to the conclusion that he was a bad person... after several years of being suicidally heartbroken and wondering why, why, why he would ruin our lives and trample all over my heart and drive me insane...

Back then I thought I had reasons and justifications, but they were terrible reasons, and I hurt my husband badly. Those reasons and justifications broke my darling's heart when he loved me more than he loved his own life. He was just as hurt over MY PAIN as he was HIS OWN!!! That takes insane amounts of kindness, empathy and strength that I didn't deserve. I hurt him badly, and I am very, very lucky I didn't hurt him worse. I am supremely lucky he chose to stay with me. I am supremely lucky I didn't give him PTSD. 


I must be honest and say that it took a whole lot of being nurtured back to health by my friends and convinced that the OM's abuse wasn't my fault before I was mentally sound enough to accept that what I did was infidelity and that although I didn't deserve to be abused, my hands were not clean. 

It wasn't until last year or so that I finally understood that I was more than just a victim of the OM's abuse- I myself was also a perpetrator of great abuse on the man I treasure the most. The fact that I didn't see that's what I had done, the fact that I struggled with intrusive memories and flashbacks of the OM for two years post-A, does not negate the hurt I caused him. 

Once I got to that point, I was able to read up on just how badly I hurt my husband, and I was able to feel truly devastated over the pain I had caused him.

I don't want to say, "Yes, I am a bad person." or even "Yes, I WAS a bad person." Nobody wants to admit that they're a bad person, because if you're a bad person you can't fix that. You suck. You deserve nothing, ever, end of story. I'd rather say I was confused and stupid and selfish and utterly lost and ignorant, because those things are fixable. I can move on. I can say I learned. I can say I'm trying to heal him. I can say I'm trying to undo the hurt I caused. Ultimately, I can redeem myself. Being a terrible human being is a life sentence. Being ignorant or selfish or naive or whatever else is not.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*My RSXW is totally unrepentant of her cheating ways, as giving admission to that sad fact could well spell her demise with family and friends!

Having remarried, she could literally give a rats a$$ about whatever would happen to me!

I feel that she seems so secure in the fact that no one would ever question her about her infidelity, that she'll slide on by that narrative even until she has to confront the Heavenly Father!

Who it wouldn't really surprise me that she's so vain that she'd flatly deny it all before Him!*


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

My ww admitted she that what she did was horrible to me. There are times she'll bring it up - about making it up to me, sorry for what she did.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I was doing some cleanup today. Ran across a 4 page hand written letter from my wayward, written last may/june. It had some answers for some of my questions and her own thoughts on things. She was thankful that rather doing this verbally - that I would had recommended a written version (we also talk). Writing it down on paper allowed her to think and reflect more on what happened.

She didn't think much about herself, only the feeling that she was having fun. Times when she knew she was doing wrong, but explained how she incorrectly and unfairly justified her actions. (how looking back, she can see the fog). The toxic people she was around that supported the affair. This also shows why writing things down or making a log or diary is important. It brings back the conversations of the past. Nothing in the note caused me to feel hurt (as I did ask her to explain what / why she liked) but that getting honest answers, from her - finally that day help then and it helps now. I have forgotten much of what we talked and did last spring. It's a faded memory. It was helpful to re-read that she admitted that what she did was wrong, that is was mean and not understanding why at the time - why she did those things. ( I asked her friends and family during this mess, "was she ever like this" = "no" ) 

Infidelity does change people who didn't plan to cheat. Those born as narcissists - never had caring feelings to begin with.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Not that she'd ever admit. Time's passed (9 years). 

I've seen too much bad crap, both before and since, to dwell or hold on to it for too long. 

Instead I've done my best to learn while also trying not to cast stones. And for her part, she's done the same. 

We get along really well at this point, and while my eyesight and boundaries are a lot clearer, I still try not to take that for granted.

I think as far as people go, including my wife, perfection is like immortality. Tough to hold onto and kinda boring over the long term.


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