# EA already moving towards PA!



## MisterNiceGuy

I am livid! You guys were right!!!! I went to our retail shop to open up today and my wife left her email up on the screen and I saw a couple of emails from this guy she says she has a crush on. Basically he said there was some "unfinished" conversations from a party the other night and she says can they meet for lunch this week! This was this morning after she talked to me about it last night. Maybe telling me about it gave her tacit approval to persue this thing. What the hell! Clearly he wants to move forward with it in the emails... I'm ready to call his wife and blow it out of the water! Clearly she's talked to him about her feelings already so she lied to me when she said she didn't. 

I'm at work til 5pm, but the ultimatum is coming at 5:30 right before we go out to Valentine's dinner (which she told me this morning she was looking forward too!). How sweet... Does anyone know a good divorce lawyer?


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## Deejo

I'm very sorry. But sadly, seldom surprised.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Tell me if it's too soon for this... I've found a No Contact letter out there on the web for an affair. Although she hasn't actually done anything about the affair physically, she seems determined to play it out. I thought the letter might put a quick stop to it. 

She clearly is not thinking about all the damage this will cause everyone. His wife and kids, my kids, our business, our house all of our friends. It's so pointless...

She told me she "loved me" this morning... I guess it works both ways when they are sceaming at you they hate you and want to move out they don't mean it and when they are telling you they love you they don't mean it either... I'll never get married again I can tell you that...


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## Powerbane

It's not too soon for the No Contact letter. Call the OM wife and family if you know them too. expose it all right now!!!

Stop on your way home for some boxes and packing tape. Go right in without a word and start packing up her stuff. 

All kidding aside - keep your cool. Tell her in no uncertain terms that you are not her doormat or anyone elses either. 

I think Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice and AffairCare Home have no contact letter examples as well as what to do next. 

I would be keylogging the computer and cell phones. 

Good luck and stay cool. I would also tell this OM to buzz off if he knows what's good for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk

And watch her on Valentines Day. Lovers always have to try and get together then...


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## MisterNiceGuy

The only redeeming thing about this is that she told me upfront before anything began. She must be having an amazing amount of guilt surrounding it, but she seems determined to "share" her feeling with this guy to get some type of resolution. Revealing feelings to a willing participant will only end up in a PA. I've calmed down a bit, but this is going to be one of the hardest things I've ever done tonight... and it will probably ruin my well planned Valentine's dinner...


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## greenpearl

She is making a big mistake in her life, she doesn't know the consequence of it, it is not going to end well for her. 

The man is just another dumb head, they think they can fool the world, no, they can't. 

It is hurting you now, for sure. But now you don't even have time to feel hurt. What are you going to do is more important! What is the wisest thing for you to do now? 

Calling the other man's wife will put another woman and another family in a miserable life, or maybe she already knows it. 

If your relationship is over, then it is over, don't linger around, free her, and let her look for her happiness, very soon she will realize that she made a big mistake and regret later, but isn't this normal for human being. Do things that they will regret later. She wants the cake and eats it too, she wants both of you. She is going to lose everything!

You can't think that she still has something for you, if a woman is having EA and wanting PA, her love for you is over! If she still stays with you, it is financial security she wants, or she can't leave because of the kids! She stays not because of you! Do you want this kind of relationship?


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## MisterNiceGuy

No... I'm giving the ultimatum tonight in about an hour. If she doesn't meet them, she has got to move out. This is barely an EA, since it is right now one sided, but I can see it quickly turning into a PA if she meets this guy and tell him her feelings. She is in that FOG of the affair and I think she thinks it's perfectly OK to tell this guy how she feels and see where it goes. Obviously not thinking clearly... I still think there is hope since I caught it so early, but as she said this morning, we are at the worst place we can be and it only gets better. Not if she goes ahead and meets this guy it won't, it will only get worse...


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## Powerbane

What about telling the OM WIFE???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

Oh yes... that will happen...


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## Powerbane

Calm cool and collected my man! 

Calm calm calm. But you are not her doormat and you will not live like this.

Be strong and be hopeful - miracles do happen!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl

MNG,

I have read the other thread. It is telling me right now she is confused, she is lost, she doesn't know what she should do. 

She lied to you be telling you she has a crush on this other man, but the other man doesn't know it. Now you know very well this other man knows her crush about her, my doubt is it might be him who made the move first. 

Who knows, all this complicated relationship thing and feeling. 

It is true if she says you are already at the worst spot if she doesn't proceed with the PA. But can you be sure that she doesn't go from this EA to that EA? 

The key is here! Will her feeling for you come back? Are you sure that you are able to get her back emotionally? 

You have to let her know who is the boss. She can't do whatever she wants. Sitting there wanting this and that, all this fairytale thing. A grown up is a grown up.


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## 827Aug

I honestly hope you were able to gain some composure before you confronted her. Affairs whether they be EA or PA are bad enough, but when a business is involved they can be even more disastrous. Not only do you have to do what's in your family's best interest, but you have to look out for your business also. Make sure she isn't doing such things as embezzling....or, almost as bad--not paying attention to the business. In my situation, I believe the divorce will come long before all of the legal issues get settled from the business disaster.

Keep us posted.


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## alphaomega

MNG?

Updates? Did everything turn out ok for you? This sucks what happened!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

Well things never go according to plan... I had this whole speech written up that I was going to use to tell her that she can't go see this guy and confess her feelings to him, which is what it sounded like she wanted to do on Saturday night. So we go out to dinner last night for Valentines and I'm a little reserved because I'm trying to steel myself for this speech. We sit down and get a beer and I start telling her that she can't see this guy. If she confesses her feelings to him it's going to turn into some type of PA.

That's as far as I got and she starts telling me there hasn't been a physical affair. The guy doesn't know how she feels. She said that as soon as she talks to him, she will give me full disclosure about what they talked about and then we won't be seeing him for a very long time. He said in the email that he was glad their friendship was getting closer and they had a couple of unfinished conversations.

I did check her emails today and she has arranged a lunch "date" with him at a local eatery and she has to run off to the therapist right after. There is no sexual references or anything but meet me at this place at so and so time. Either she is so computer savvy that I can't find a trace of her affair with this guy (not likely) or I'm seeing pretty much all the conversations in email which is hardly anything. No texts from him. I've check internet history and there is no evidence. She is pretty sloppy about hiding her tracks. I know all her passwords since she's told me and she hasn't ever changed anything.

I don't think she's being completely honest with me, but I also think that she is going to end whatever was going on between them. To be honest I think he was happy to have an affair with my wife, but she is guilt ridden. Why else would she tell me?

Otherwise, she has been fairly pleasant today and we exchanged Vday cards and such. Lots of compliments from her today and generally in a good mood. She has been sharing a book that she has been reading about relationships.

So here is the new plan. I'm going to let her meet this guy. She has a counselor session right afterward and I'm out until late that night. Then we have a joint meeting with the therapist on Friday (which she BTW she said she told the therapist all about this). If I don't hear from her about this meeting by the therapy session on Friday, I will brng it up forcefully and ask for full disclosure and go from there. I don't want to know the gory details, but I think I have a right to know how deep it went.

That's the plan right now and it could change any minute!


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## MEM2020

No matter what - forget the words you/she uses - calm - very few words - constructive. 

Something along the lines of - when things get strained in a marriage other people start to seem more attractive. That is a natural reaction. It is also true that you can't fix a marriage while distracted by another person. 

IF you get anything other than a firm/absolute commit from her that she has ended it with him I would just let her know that you are not going to work on a marriage with a W who is openly keeping her options open. Don't argue just make the statement. 

And the next day I would show up at the guys house without warning before he goes to work. I would pull him aside and tell him that ANY further contact with your W and you are going to bring this battle for your marriage to his door so fast and so hard his head is going to spin and his W is going to start talking to a lawyer. No matter WHAT his denials I would just smile and say "if there is nothing there you will stay away - if you don't - you me and your Wife are going to have a long, detailed conversation about this situation". And if he wouldn't commit to backing off I would suggest a 3 way convo with his wife right then and there. His emails would make a normal W flip out. 

I would also tell him that if he "complains" to your W about you interfering you WILL send his emails to his own wife. He can just tell your W he has had a "change of heart" 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Well things never go according to plan... I had this whole speech written up that I was going to use to tell her that she can't go see this guy and confess her feelings to him, which is what it sounded like she wanted to do on Saturday night. So we go out to dinner last night for Valentines and I'm a little reserved because I'm trying to steel myself for this speech. We sit down and get a beer and I start telling her that she can't see this guy. If she confesses her feelings to him it's going to turn into some type of PA.
> 
> That's as far as I got and she starts telling me there hasn't been a physical affair. The guy doesn't know how she feels. She said that as soon as she talks to him, she will give me full disclosure about what they talked about and then we won't be seeing him for a very long time. He said in the email that he was glad their friendship was getting closer and they had a couple of unfinished conversations.
> 
> I did check her emails today and she has arranged a lunch "date" with him at a local eatery and she has to run off to the therapist right after. There is no sexual references or anything but meet me at this place at so and so time. Either she is so computer savvy that I can't find a trace of her affair with this guy (not likely) or I'm seeing pretty much all the conversations in email which is hardly anything. No texts from him. I've check internet history and there is no evidence. She is pretty sloppy about hiding her tracks. I know all her passwords since she's told me and she hasn't ever changed anything.
> 
> I don't think she's being completely honest with me, but I also think that she is going to end whatever was going on between them. To be honest I think he was happy to have an affair with my wife, but she is guilt ridden. Why else would she tell me?
> 
> Otherwise, she has been fairly pleasant today and we exchanged Vday cards and such. Lots of compliments from her today and generally in a good mood. She has been sharing a book that she has been reading about relationships.
> 
> So here is the new plan. I'm going to let her meet this guy. She has a counselor session right afterward and I'm out until late that night. Then we have a joint meeting with the therapist on Friday (which she BTW she said she told the therapist all about this). If I don't hear from her about this meeting by the therapy session on Friday, I will brng it up forcefully and ask for full disclosure and go from there. I don't want to know the gory details, but I think I have a right to know how deep it went.
> 
> That's the plan right now and it could change any minute!


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## michzz

Do not give your permission for any contact whatsoever.

She will extrapolate that as permission for all contact possible.

The affair is on.

I am sorry for this.

I speak from experience. Going for coffee and a sandwich is never going for coffee and a sandwich.

Wise up.


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## alphaomega

MEM has it right!

This is eating you up inside. You feel like total crap! Your stomach is lurching. Your anxious. Your on edge. This situation is making you distrustful.

So.....answer me one question. If this was anyone but your wife, would you put up with this sh$t?!!!!!! If not, then why are you putting up with this from your wife, other than you enjoy the doormat feeling? I know it's hard, and you want to believe the best in your wife, but if I made my wife feel like that, and she asked me to stop specifically BECAUSE it made her feel like that....I would stop! Period! Why? Because she is my wife and why would I want to put someone I love through that hell? Simple love and respect would make me stop! She sees how much this is killing you inside, yet she continues to argue in favor of seeing the OM! That's not what people do to the ones they love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coops

Last time I posted, the thread disappeared but here goes. In case you didn't get to read it before the thread was deleted, I'll repeat some of it. 

What your wife said to the other day is:

"I want to take a shot at things with this guy. I want to use you as a fall back in case things don't work out. If they don't work out, I'll settle for you"

In other words, Your wife is using you. She can dress it up with lies or say its about emotion. "Oh no, feel so sorry for me, I'm confused!! All this emotion. You treated me so well all our marriage and now I'm confused cause I like this other guy. Can I have permission to go pursue something with him?" She just asked you if its ok to pursue an affair and you're giving her permission. 

That is wrong. 

You're chump, the sucker, the dupe. You're being played. You think its cool in a marriage to go meet another women and find out how you feel about her? Think she would have stood for that? 

Her two options are work on the marriage or end the marriage. Having an affair or chasing another guy to see how she feels is not ok. So what if they haven't had a PA yet? That make some sort of difference? That is a trick, a game, a diversion. Keep your eye focused on what matters. 

She is straight up using you and you're letting her. You deserve better. Straighten her out or leave her. Either way your life will be better off.


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## F-102

Bud, you chicken out on your speech, then decide to let her see him? It almost sounds like you WANT her to cheat and leave you!


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## Hicks

She is lying to you. You need to realize this. Her affection to you is a manipulation. You should tell her that if she meets with him you will file for divorce and full custody of the children and as much money as possible. You should hire PI to have her followed with pictures. You yourself know they are heading toward a sexual relationsihip as it is the title of your post.


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## nice777guy

Hate to disagree with you guys, gut I don't get the idea that MrNG is ready to go in with guns blazing.

Let me say though, that the "nicer" you are about this - the longer it will be drawn out.

You should have insisted that she not meet him for lunch. If you aren't ready to follow-up with any real consequences yet, don't worry, you'll get there.

Be careful not to make any threats you don't intend to follow through on.

Good luck...


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## Conrad

MNG,

Pay attention to MEM's second paragraph.

If you're not ready to fully confront your wife, his plan to visit the OM makes an "almost as good" substitute.


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## coops

nice777guy said:


> Hate to disagree with you guys, gut I don't get the idea that MrNG is ready to go in with guns blazing.
> 
> Let me say though, that the "nicer" you are about this - the longer it will be drawn out.
> 
> You should have insisted that she not meet him for lunch. If you aren't ready to follow-up with any real consequences yet, don't worry, you'll get there.
> 
> Be careful not to make any threats you don't intend to follow through on.
> 
> Good luck...


Like hide and seek. Ready or not, here I come!

I personally don't think he has a choice to be ready or not on this issue. It's being forced on him. He either reacts or accepts it. Accepting it will end far worse for him than doing something about it.


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## nice777guy

coops said:


> Like hide and seek. Ready or not, here I come!
> 
> I personally don't think he has a choice to be ready or not on this issue. It's being forced on him. He either reacts or accepts it. Accepting it will end far worse for him than doing something about it.


I think you have "some" time. You make your feelings clear, but don't make threats/ultimatums *unless you are willing to follow through.* Including threats to the OM about telling his wife.

Whatever happened here didn't happen overnight - and it won't get fixed overnight either. Even if she agrees to no contact right now - she'll find a way to get back to this guy until her husband can begin to engage her and pull her back towards the him and the marriage.

Telling a Niceguy to Man-Up, start confronting people and to begin making threats is a bit like telling Michael J. Fox to "just" stop shaking.


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## MisterNiceGuy

An update... I appreciate all the advice. I am not going with guns blazing. I have an opportunity to confront this issue in a controlled environment with the marriage counselor this Friday, unless she comes clean before that. She has already told me she told the counselor, so it's something I can bring up without getting too emotional. Either way, it will be resolved by this Friday...

Also, we had a short talk at 3am this morning when one the kids woke us up. She said she was having problems communicating and was going to write me a letter. I found the letter this morning in my home office.

Basically she says that she has lost a connection with me years ago, her trust in me is zero right now. She wants a simpler life, true engagement, longing for wholeness. She wants to love fully and deeply (with someone, maybe not me). She had conceded on issues that were in her heart and soul wrong for her in order to make me happy. She cannot risk that happening again. She is overwhelmed at the prospect of what it will take to rebuild this marriage, it has to be completely different. She says she will walk down the path with me if I agree to take it slowly, not knowing where it will lead. We will have to sit with our uncomfortable feelings for as long as needed...

I know a lot of this now after reading No More Mr. Nice Guy. I've neglected things for a very long time as so has she. Her recent birthday kicked all this off and here we are today. Just knowing that she is going to "walk down this path" with me is good enough for now. This letter is no wake up call, it's just a distillation of what she has been telling me over the past few weeks. It will take much longer than I thought to heal our issues. I am cautiously optimistic that we can work through it for a while.


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## Hicks

nice777guy;254058
Telling a Niceguy to Man-Up said:


> Thijs isn't about manning up. His wife just took the marriage off of the planet earth into something called fantasy land. In fantasy land a wife can go meet another man to discuss their feelings for each other. That concept is bizarre to me in the context of a marriage. His wife manipulated MNG into thinking fantasy land and planet earth are one and the same. He needs to pull her back to earth where wives don't meet other married men to discuss their feelings for each other. By him playing into the fantasy, she now feels that fantasy land is actually REAL. What else will happen there? Nothing good whatsoever.


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## MEM2020

*Rules of engagement*

MNG,
You are losing sight of something very precious. While I actually think it is perfectly fine for your W to be all over the map with YOU as she has been recently and for her to expect you to be her rock as she has, it is absolutely NOT ok for her to explore her "other" options in parallel. 

My W has initiated precipice dances with me numerous times during our marriage. I stay solid and she comes to her senses rapidly. Dance over I don't hold it against her or "generally speaking" bring it up after the fact. 

But had she started to explore the possibility of my replacement while living in our house, wearing OUR wedding rings the gloves come off. NOT because it would hurt my male pride. But rather because you cannot hope to fix a marriage with a spouse who is behaving that way. It is not possible. She will lose her respect for herself, for you AND for the marriage if you allow that. 

MY boundary is simple. You can say/do just about anything one on one with me. You are upset, angry afraid - let it out. Likely we will get past it. BUT bring another guy to the table and we separate. And while separated, you even talk to that other guy and I file. This isn't alpha - it isn't beta. It is just insisting that she treat you the way she would demand you treat her. 

I say with certainty that if YOU were meeting another woman for lunch your W would be in her attorneys office drawing up papers. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> An update... I appreciate all the advice. I am not going with guns blazing. I have an opportunity to confront this issue in a controlled environment with the marriage counselor this Friday, unless she comes clean before that. She has already told me she told the counselor, so it's something I can bring up without getting too emotional. Either way, it will be resolved by this Friday...
> 
> Also, we had a short talk at 3am this morning when one the kids woke us up. She said she was having problems communicating and was going to write me a letter. I found the letter this morning in my home office.
> 
> Basically she says that she has lost a connection with me years ago, her trust in me is zero right now. She wants a simpler life, true engagement, longing for wholeness. She wants to love fully and deeply (with someone, maybe not me). She had conceded on issues that were in her heart and soul wrong for her in order to make me happy. She cannot risk that happening again. She is overwhelmed at the prospect of what it will take to rebuild this marriage, it has to be completely different. She says she will walk down the path with me if I agree to take it slowly, not knowing where it will lead. We will have to sit with our uncomfortable feelings for as long as needed...
> 
> I know a lot of this now after reading No More Mr. Nice Guy. I've neglected things for a very long time as so has she. Her recent birthday kicked all this off and here we are today. Just knowing that she is going to "walk down this path" with me is good enough for now. This letter is no wake up call, it's just a distillation of what she has been telling me over the past few weeks. It will take much longer than I thought to heal our issues. I am cautiously optimistic that we can work through it for a while.


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## Hicks

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Basically she says that she has lost a connection with me years ago, her trust in me is zero right now. She wants a simpler life, true engagement, longing for wholeness. She wants to love fully and deeply (with someone, maybe not me). She had conceded on issues that were in her heart and soul wrong for her in order to make me happy. She cannot risk that happening again. She is overwhelmed at the prospect of what it will take to rebuild this marriage, it has to be completely different. She says she will walk down the path with me if I agree to take it slowly, not knowing where it will lead. We will have to sit with our uncomfortable feelings for as long as needed...


No way on earth she writes this letter if she doesn't feel option B (other guy) is real and gives her what you do not. This is her internal justification to cheat. "See MNG I told you what I needed and it's not my fault that OM gives it to me and you don't. You never disagreed with my letter so I know you DO agree with me!"


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## alphaomega

Ok. I don't get this entire situation. Or maybe I do....soooooooo confused.

Your wife tells you the OM doesn't know about her feelings and it's just a crush. But she wants to meet him to tell her about her feelings? So.....basically she's telling you that before she decides what to do with YOU, she wants to find out what he feels about HER? Friend! Can you not see how wrong this is on so many levels?

You can justify this in your mind all you want about how it's ok, it's just talk. BUT, it's NOT ok! Your the second choice! She's telling you with her actions that you are the second choice if there is nothing better out there for her! And not just you! If I'm correct, you have children, right? It seems she is not even thinking about them either.

MNG. I realize in your mind there is much to lose. If you give an ultimatum, you may lose your wife. What you don't realize is that you already lost her! She's not with you emotionally in your marriage right now, and you are the doormat. This is the irony that you haven't yet realized in your mind right now, which is causing you to still be the nice guy you were making soooooooo much great progress in eliminating. 

Well, no one can make you give an ultimatum if your mentally not ready. I was at the same place you are right now during my wifes EA. I was too scared to kick her a$$ to the curb, and justified any excuse she gave me as a valid legitimate reason, even though it tore me up inside. But I didn't realize that I already lost the game anyways. You know what my breaking point was? Even after all her excuses about being just friends, it's not really an affair because it wasn't physical, she deserved the EA because she didn't feel close to me anymore, etc, etc,etc. It was reading a text to her EA 'boyfriend' about how her heart was always with him, during the entire 15 years of our relationship. Wow! Rrrrrriiiiiiiip! Hear that? That was the sound of my heart getting gouged out of my chest. Right then and there, I fell completely out of love with my wife. The next day, I told her that our marriage was over. Time to find an apartment, dear! 

So...what the he'll was the point of that story? Well, nothing really. Just using literary freedom to say that at some point you will get to that point too. In all honesty, I hope you don't have to, but in the end, if you do, you'll just know when it's time. In the meantime, don't let yourself get walked all over in the chance that you think if you are just a little more understanding and patient, everything will work out. You still have your self respect to nurture. Don't forget that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

An update... well things have turn better around here the past couple of days. My wife is a lot more cheerful and so am I. She has been reading the 5 Love Languages book and we were going through it a bit, which is an encouraging sign that she is thinking about the future. We talked for several hours yesterday about emotional needs and such and she was very encouraging. I brought up the OM and she said she felt stupid and that there was nothing there and I needed to trust her. There was no affair (the guys wife is one of my wife's good friends) and she couldn't be the cause of so much heartache and disruption to his family and our friends. 

Today she was very upbeat and I know she was going to meet this guy today for lunch. After she left, I checked her computer and there was not document up on it basically saying that she and he were both searching for something, but she (my wife) is going to use her marriage as the place to find what she is looking for (yah for me!) and that he either needs to leave his wife or find whatever he needs in his marriage but she wasn't going to be apart of whatever he needs to do.

I know my wife pretty well (17 years together) and when she makes up her mind, there really isn't turning her around. I think she's made her mind up to try and work on our marriage and not do anything with this guy.

Her actions speak volumes and I'm not getting that vibe anymore from her that this is something I need to worry about. Like I said, I'll bring it up one last time with the therapist this Friday, but then I'm putting it to sleep...


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## mrnice

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Tell me if it's too soon for this... I've found a No Contact letter out there on the web for an affair. Although she hasn't actually done anything about the affair physically, she seems determined to play it out. I thought the letter might put a quick stop to it.
> 
> She clearly is not thinking about all the damage this will cause everyone. His wife and kids, my kids, our business, our house all of our friends. It's so pointless...
> 
> She told me she "loved me" this morning... I guess it works both ways when they are sceaming at you they hate you and want to move out they don't mean it and when they are telling you they love you they don't mean it either... I'll never get married again I can tell you that...


Dude, sorry but when one party to a marriage indulges in this sort of behaviour, sadly it's the begginning of the end.

I gave my ex two chances, on the third it was over.
I SHOULD have ended it on the first.

The saying 'Once a cheater, always a cheater' is so damn true.

Get legal advice and end it as quickly as possible, the longer you take to get it sorted the more it does your head in.

Im sorry to say but when this sort of thing happens their is no return.

Good Luck with getting it sorted quickly.

Oh and get prepared for her to become the person you DIDN'T get Married to. 

Make sure you NEVER drag the kids into the whole seperation thing. Support them emotionally and never say a bad word about her in front of the kids.


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## the guy

I to got the vib. from my cheating W and its been 12 months and 3 days since I confronted W. Things are awsome. no more "girls night out" no more sleeping with the cell phone in her pillow. No more password on the laptop or cell. No more waking up in the middle of the night to find her gone. 

She calls all the time when she at work and is always home if not at work. Its great to have my best friend back.

Granted I still snoop and keep an eye on her texting and other account activities, and I suggest you do the same.

Its nice to have your best friend back, is in it?


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## MisterNiceGuy

Thanks, I knew there must be some positive experiences out there. The change over the past couple of days has been awesome. I wouldn't say we are out of the woods, but at least she is turning her attention to me... My W never got that bad and I still think it was more like a school girl crush. There were no emails, texts, cell phone calls, im or anything so I don't think she was in too deep. She is just naive or sloppy when it comes to covering her tracks because I've seen everything she's done on her computer...



the guy said:


> I to got the vib. from my cheating W and its been 12 months and 3 days since I confronted W. Things are awsome. no more "girls night out" no more sleeping with the cell phone in her pillow. No more password on the laptop or cell. No more waking up in the middle of the night to find her gone.
> 
> She calls all the time when she at work and is always home if not at work. Its great to have my best friend back.
> 
> Granted I still snoop and keep an eye on her texting and other account activities, and I suggest you do the same.
> 
> Its nice to have your best friend back, is in it?


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## MisterNiceGuy

I don't know what my wife said to this guy, but he has sent her a big long love note that he had written months ago. She has not responded. OK, this is new territory for me... She does not know that I've been reading her email. I'm livid at this and I need to confront her as soon as I see her.

Do I tell her straight up that I've been reading her emails? Do I make do a No Contact letter with this guy? 

My gut tells me that she is trying to move on and work it out with me, but I can't have this distraction floating about out there. I don't think I can confront this guy face to face, can I do it in email? Argh!


----------



## nice777guy

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know what my wife said to this guy, but he has sent her a big long love note that he had written months ago. She has not responded. OK, this is new territory for me... She does not know that I've been reading her email. I'm livid at this and I need to confront her as soon as I see her.
> 
> Do I tell her straight up that I've been reading her emails? Do I make do a No Contact letter with this guy?
> 
> My gut tells me that she is trying to move on and work it out with me, but I can't have this distraction floating about out there. I don't think I can confront this guy face to face, can I do it in email? Argh!


She's telling you she wants everything to work out. Now you find a love letter.

If you confront her NOW, you will lose access to her e-mail, which might be the only way you'll really know what's going on.

E-mailing the other man will not likely be effective either. I always struggle a bit here - because HE'S not your #1 problem - your wife is.

Did you say you have marriage therapy on Friday? Even if not, I would wait at least a few more days - or longer - to see if you can find any other revealing e-mails.


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
OK - you have to be really practical here. HE sent her a love letter not the other way around. She is partly to blame but you will likely never know how much. 

If you don't want to do a face to face with him - which is fine - you could do this. 

Call his cell and read him "your letter to him" which should be something along the lines of:
I have in my hand the letter you sent my W. I have good news and bad news. The good news is I have not yet sent it to your W. The bad news is that unless you do exactly what I say below I AM going to let your W know what is happening. If any of the stuff below happens - your W gets the call.

- If you tell my W I called you
- If you do anything other than end this immediately - without in any way referencing me directly/indirectly
- If my marriage fails in the near term for any reason at all 

As upset as you are right now - and as unsure as you are regarding her guilt - talking to her might be a big mistake. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know what my wife said to this guy, but he has sent her a big long love note that he had written months ago. She has not responded. OK, this is new territory for me... She does not know that I've been reading her email. I'm livid at this and I need to confront her as soon as I see her.
> 
> Do I tell her straight up that I've been reading her emails? Do I make do a No Contact letter with this guy?
> 
> My gut tells me that she is trying to move on and work it out with me, but I can't have this distraction floating about out there. I don't think I can confront this guy face to face, can I do it in email? Argh!


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

I would just like to wholeheartedly agree with MEM.

You have been hesitant about confronting your wife.

But, what you have here (this letter) is the "smoking gun".

You can wreck this bastard if he doesn't do precisely what you tell him to do.

Also, once you rid your life of him, you can observe how your wife responds.

Remember - she never has to know you did this.




MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> OK - you have to be really practical here. HE sent her a love letter not the other way around. She is partly to blame but you will likely never know how much.
> 
> If you don't want to do a face to face with him - which is fine - you could do this.
> 
> Call his cell and read him "your letter to him" which should be something along the lines of:
> I have in my hand the letter you sent my W. I have good news and bad news. The good news is I have not yet sent it to your W. The bad news is that unless you do exactly what I say below I AM going to let your W know what is happening. If any of the stuff below happens - your W gets the call.
> 
> - If you tell my W I called you
> - If you do anything other than end this immediately - without in any way referencing me directly/indirectly
> - If my marriage fails in the near term for any reason at all
> 
> As upset as you are right now - and as unsure as you are regarding her guilt - talking to her might be a big mistake.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Thanks guys... I don't need some love sick puppy following my wife around. I just checked her email and she deleted the email and emptied her trash before I could get a copy, but I have other emails that aren't as incriminating, but plenty bad. Enough that his wife would still get pissed.

Yes, I have a therapy session tomorrow with her and we have never official put this thing to bed. I will do that tomorrow with the therapist present. 

You are right, the first thing she would do is shut down access to everything if I confronted her. Best to keep an eye on it covertly...

I need to mull over my response to this guy. Part of the problem is that I think my wife thinks that we can still socialize with this guy and his wife. You know that may be possible, but not for a really long time... I think my wife needs to know that.


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## F-102

Sorry, MNG, but you will never convince me-she is saying/letting you see things she wants you to hear/see, and I think you are still being hosed!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

F-102 

You know I can see your point of view. But digging through all my wife's crap she has never really covered her tracks and has been fairly upfront (but not completely) about what she was going through with him. Having worked in the spy business for many years, I know a little about how to uncover this stuff. Either my wife is superb at running a deception campaign or just a little sloppy and maybe almost wants me to find out this stuff... I honestly think the later is what is really going on.


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## MEM2020

In counseling you can demonize him - but still get her to commit to no contact. If it was me I would tell the counselor: "It is obvious he is aggressively pursuing her - I KNOW this guy he WANTS her. 

And I would let her respond to that. If she agrees he is, and most important that she needs to go "NC" with him - you have made a big step forward. 

If she denies that he is pursuing her and is non-commital about staying completely away from him I would try the soft approach first. I would ask her directly: 
"I am not making this about you, I am asking you about him. Can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me he is not aggressively pursuing a relationship with you"?

I would do the soft, sincere voice for that question. And if she looked me in the eye and lied straight to my face - I would just do the long, painful silence with eye contact. And then same soft, gentle voice. 
"Do you think there is any possibility of repairing our marriage without genuine honesty about important stuff like this"?




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Thanks guys... I don't need some love sick puppy following my wife around. I just checked her email and she deleted the email and emptied her trash before I could get a copy, but I have other emails that aren't as incriminating, but plenty bad. Enough that his wife would still get pissed.
> 
> Yes, I have a therapy session tomorrow with her and we have never official put this thing to bed. I will do that tomorrow with the therapist present.
> 
> You are right, the first thing she would do is shut down access to everything if I confronted her. Best to keep an eye on it covertly...
> 
> I need to mull over my response to this guy. Part of the problem is that I think my wife thinks that we can still socialize with this guy and his wife. You know that may be possible, but not for a really long time... I think my wife needs to know that.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

MEM's thoughts about the session are 100% spot on.

AND - in the background, you can be making SURE that there is no temptation for her (with this guy) EVER again.

All that angst you're feeling can find release, because you have him by the sack.

He won't dare move on her. Trust us.



MEM11363 said:


> In counseling you can demonize him - but still get her to commit to no contact. If it was me I would tell the counselor: "It is obvious he is aggressively pursuing her - I KNOW this guy he WANTS her.
> 
> And I would let her respond to that. If she agrees he is, and most important that she needs to go "NC" with him - you have made a big step forward.
> 
> If she denies that he is pursuing her and is non-commital about staying completely away from him I would try the soft approach first. I would ask her directly:
> "I am not making this about you, I am asking you about him. Can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me he is not aggressively pursuing a relationship with you"?
> 
> I would do the soft, sincere voice for that question. And if she looked me in the eye and lied straight to my face - I would just do the long, painful silence with eye contact. And then same soft, gentle voice.
> "Do you think there is any possibility of repairing our marriage without genuine honesty about important stuff like this"?


----------



## MEM2020

And if he "does" move on her despite your warning - call his wife. I can assure you that his happy confident "affect" with your W will quickly change if he is forced to sleep in the garage at home. 




Conrad said:


> MNG,
> 
> MEM's thoughts about the session are 100% spot on.
> 
> AND - in the background, you can be making SURE that there is no temptation for her (with this guy) EVER again.
> 
> All that angst you're feeling can find release, because you have him by the sack.
> 
> He won't dare move on her. Trust us.


----------



## Conrad

One last note...

Your wife thinks you can be "social" with the OM and his wife?

Include that in your communication with him.

He is to politely refuse all such invites.


----------



## MEM2020

I totally agree with Conrad on this. Listen - I have a simple but very extreme view of this stuff. ANYONE who messes with my W while she is with me - has declared WAR on my family. Not something I would respond passively to. 

If she wants to dissolve the family - that is her right. But she has to directly say so by asking for a divorce. Once she does that, she/he/they are free to do as they wish. 




Conrad said:


> One last note...
> 
> Your wife thinks you can be "social" with the OM and his wife?
> 
> Include that in your communication with him.
> 
> He is to politely refuse all such invites.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Breaking update... I went to make a couple of deliveries this afternoon and came back and my wife was on the phone. Her face just sunk when she saw me. Not expecting me back so soon. She said, gotta go and could hear a deep voice on the other end say bye. Then she looks at me and tells me that was her best friend (a woman) on the phone... I'm fuming because I know it's him! I have to go do a couple of things and come back and I can't keep it in any longer and say that wasn't your friend on the phone it was the OM. She said yes... immediately she says she needs to move out, but she starts to back peddle. I say it's me or him. She says she's confused. (I just wrote her a long letter last night telling how I feel and she really liked it) I said I'm tired of pouring my guts out (in that letter) just to have her walk all over them. I don't need these distractions if we are to get this marriage back on track. She said she didn't need them either. I said we are going to take care of this later (I have some business to attend to) and she said she was going to take care of it. I look at her and she looks pissed. She says that my response was perfect and appreciated. She hears me... I left it at that and now I'm going for a run to blow off some steam...

I think it's exactly what I thought it was. She's trying to avail her self of this guy, but I don't think she can see how to do it right. Talking more to him isn't going to get her where she needs to be if she really wants to end it.

I found all her emails, she had hidden them in folder, but she forgets how tech savvy I am sometimes. There is not a hint of romance in her emails, but his are always hinting at something. I think she truly wants to end it but is having a difficult time. I need to contact him and tell him no more and she and I have to have some type of agreement that she will not contact him anymore. I think the therapist session will be a great place to hash that out so I don't blow a gasket over this...


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## Atholk

Expose to the OM wife right now.


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## Conrad

Atholk said:


> Expose to the OM wife right now.


Do it MNG.

No more time to waste.

This is your future. Man up and claim it.

You will never forgive yourself if you don't.


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## MEM2020

MNNNNNNNNNNNG,
Have you printed his love letter? If not, you need to. AND forward it to your email account. And create a new account and forward it to that. It is the ultimate weapon in the war for your marriage. Do you really think your W will respect you for being "patient" with this crap? You think she would let you do this to her? Have you lost your mind?

All that said - EVERYTHING you do needs to be calm. Short phrases, harsh tone, description of consequences. No loud voice. NO loss of control. 

Why are you afraid to confront this OM? He is ALL OVER your wife. She is clearly waffling. Wow. You do not have to be "aggressive" style wise with him. Just bring this right to his doorstep - he is a half step from being in your ***ing bed man.




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Breaking update... I went to make a couple of deliveries this afternoon and came back and my wife was on the phone. Her face just sunk when she saw me. Not expecting me back so soon. She said, gotta go and could hear a deep voice on the other end say bye. Then she looks at me and tells me that was her best friend (a woman) on the phone... I'm fuming because I know it's him! I have to go do a couple of things and come back and I can't keep it in any longer and say that wasn't your friend on the phone it was the OM. She said yes... immediately she says she needs to move out, but she starts to back peddle. I say it's me or him. She says she's confused. (I just wrote her a long letter last night telling how I feel and she really liked it) I said I'm tired of pouring my guts out (in that letter) just to have her walk all over them. I don't need these distractions if we are to get this marriage back on track. She said she didn't need them either. I said we are going to take care of this later (I have some business to attend to) and she said she was going to take care of it. I look at her and she looks pissed. She says that my response was perfect and appreciated. She hears me... I left it at that and now I'm going for a run to blow off some steam...
> 
> I think it's exactly what I thought it was. She's trying to avail her self of this guy, but I don't think she can see how to do it right. Talking more to him isn't going to get her where she needs to be if she really wants to end it.
> 
> I found all her emails, she had hidden them in folder, but she forgets how tech savvy I am sometimes. There is not a hint of romance in her emails, but his are always hinting at something. I think she truly wants to end it but is having a difficult time. I need to contact him and tell him no more and she and I have to have some type of agreement that she will not contact him anymore. I think the therapist session will be a great place to hash that out so I don't blow a gasket over this...


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## alphaomega

MNG....

I say this with the utmost compassion and empathy for your situation, but.......

How many times do you need to get kicked in your nuts before you get it? This is what women in the FOG do! They know what they are doing is wrong,but they want the affair too! You are being played, my friend. Your tolerance and patience is enabling her to continue this behavior! She is in limbo right now, trying to hold onto both of you, while she sorts out her feelings. Well, what's to sort out? NOTHING! Him or you! Get her to make a decision now or you make it for her. That's what I had to do with my wife, and it drove the point home after our separation and she realized I was getting on in my life fine without her. Only then did she realize WTF she was doing.


You know how she needs to avail herself of this guy? STOP CALLING HIM! It's really that simple. No emails, no phone calls, no "talking it out with him". NO CONTACT!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks

Exposing simply to the man and telling him not to tell your wife will result in him telling your wife. He is addicted and cannot control his behavoir. You should print out all the letters and expose to his wife. If a man was going to come attack your wife with a knife, would you let her talk you into handling it herself? You would do everything possible to stop it. You should stop at nothing here.


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## alphaomega

Hicks said:


> Exposing simply to the man and telling him not to tell your wife will result in him telling your wife. He is addicted and cannot control his behavoir. You should print out all the letters and expose to his wife. If a man was going to come attack your wife with a knife, would you let her talk you into handling it herself? You would do everything possible to stop it. You should stop at nothing here.


I disagree with this one. Yes, he's addicted, but he's not stupid. Once he's under threat of exposure, he's going to come to his senses enough to realize that he continues with the affair and go through a divorce, or stop what he's doing and ensure his wife never finds out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Contact the OM and tell him he has one shot here, and you will not expose this affair if #1 he does not tell your wife about this contact, #2 he ends all contact with her # 3 if she contact him, he breaks it off.

Remind him again if he tells your wife and or you have any feed back from any one else about this conversation you will expose the evidence of this affair to his wife, his parents and his employer, everyone. If you find any thing that remotely senses any contact you will expose.

As long as OM ends the affair and never brings up the conversation the two of you had you will remain silent and the evidence will go away.


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## the guy

Hell you may want to send him a copy of what you have as far as evidence, this would surely show how serious you are.


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## toolate

When a wife even so much as entertains an affair, she has felt so wronged in the marriage already. Some women have an affair to get their husbands to "fight for them" which I dont understand, but it exists. So, in either scenario you need to institute boundaries. Do as MEM says and go to the mans house, now. If you dont, you are allowing whatever happens to happen and your marriage will never be the same. She has communicated to you her desire to have her way and thus far you are letting her!

My guess would be that she wants you to fight for her and your marriage bc of the fact that she has let you in on the information instead of just going and having the affair on her own private and undisclosed time ... like a woman who has been emotionally and sexually abandoned in a marriage would do.

I know today is therapy day, but dont let any good things said in there sway you away from telling the other husband, now. That is the only way to nip it in the bud... unless they are planning to run off together and both leave their spouses... in which case best of luck to them both (not) bc they will need it to start a life on a lie like that.... lmao. Sad how some cheaters can believe that they can make something last forever starting out cheating on the very people they made sacred vows to NOT do those things against. My affair was an affair and just to get needs met... no fantasy. That is not what most cheating wives envision though... which is why I say to you to nip this in the bud. I think its ridiculous that hse even has told you these things before they happen.... she must not want them to... MAN UP ready or not!!! Dont allow this and then have the sex with her that she was probably envisioning with this other guy


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## toolate

I agree 100% with The Guy's advice on what to say!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MisterNiceGuy

Heading to the therapist now. I'm going to play it cool, with emphasis that her communication to this other guy has got to stop if she is taking this seriously. If I don't get a clear plan from her at this meeting about how she wants to move forward then I'm taking the actions outlined above today after the meeting. I'm pretty sure there will be no clear outcome today, but she really respects the therapist so I think she will follow anything he suggests. Then I might start a 180 degree plan if she refuses to cooperate. She did mention last night that I am pushing too hard for a resolution right now that I need to back off a little, but I insisted that in order for us to even think about moving forward she needs to end communication with him. She agreed with me that it is inappropriate to talk with him (but she emailed him a couple times this morning.) She is clearly in the FOG right now... After me not giving enough attention, now she is getting it from two guys in spades and she is probably loving it! Only room for one of us though... Wish me luck!


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Heading to the therapist now. I'm going to play it cool, with emphasis that her communication to this other guy has got to stop if she is taking this seriously. If I don't get a clear plan from her at this meeting about how she wants to move forward then I'm taking the actions outlined above today after the meeting. Then I might start a 180 degree plan if she refuses to cooperate. She did mention last night that I am pushing too hard for a resolution right now that I need to back off a little, but I insisted that in order for us to even think about moving forward she needs to end communication with him. She agreed with me that it is inappropriate to talk with him (but she emailed him a couple times this morning.) She is clearly in the FOG right now... After me not giving enough attention, now she is getting it from two guys in spades and she is probably loving it! Only room for one of us though... Wish me luck!


MNG,

Good luck.

I'll keep this short.

She's already proven that you cannot believe what she says. 

So, no matter what the "outcome" at counseling (which would involve some level of commitment about not indulging the other man), you simply MUST (I don't use that word often) take the battle to the OM.

This guy is all over your wife.

You'll never forgive yourself if you have the ammunition and do not force him to stand down.

The fact that you are not responding to that point leads me to believe that you really don't want to and - perhaps - may be afraid of him in some way.

I'm praying for you.


----------



## MEM2020

Agreed. If this is not a 2 way shutdown she is going to be able to play the game of "I told him not to call me - it isn't my fault he keeps calling". 

The reason I think the threat of disclosure is best is simply that the OM "may" back down from that. And backing down includes not whining to MNNNNNNNGs wife. If he does back down - it ends. Worst case he doesn't. And THEN you disclose. 




Conrad said:


> MNG,
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> I'll keep this short.
> 
> She's already proven that you cannot believe what she says.
> 
> So, no matter what the "outcome" at counseling (which would involve some level of commitment about not indulging the other man), you simply MUST (I don't use that word often) take the battle to the OM.
> 
> This guy is all over your wife.
> 
> You'll never forgive yourself if you have the ammunition and do not force him to stand down.
> 
> The fact that you are not responding to that point leads me to believe that you really don't want to and - perhaps - may be afraid of him in some way.
> 
> I'm praying for you.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> Agreed. If this is not a 2 way shutdown she is going to be able to play the game of "I told him not to call me - it isn't my fault he keeps calling".
> 
> The reason I think the threat of disclosure is best is simply that the OM "may" back down from that. And backing down includes not whining to MNNNNNNNGs wife. If he does back down - it ends. Worst case he doesn't. And THEN you disclose.


I've got bigger problems than the OM. The therapist kicked me out and I'm inthe waiting room. He's trying to talk her down after she decided to start talking about walking out of the marriage right now. He said he hadn't heard that from her before and now they are talking alone. At this point the OM is nothing if she walks out today...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Now let us help you. She is not walking away from you. She is walking towards him. I would blow him up right now. Right now I would call his W. Keep it short and sweet - offer her the emails if she wants them. 

And then I would stay calm and constructive with your W. She is trying SO hard to have it both ways. You as plan B, and him as plan A. Once his wife plugs in he will have an interesting situation on his hands. 

There are no guarantees here. She and he might leave you and his wife for each other. But that outcome is fairly rare. Stay calm and firm and tell her she needs to choose. This is an incredibly rare opportunity to show strength and courage. Use it. 

Affaircare has THE BEST posts on specifically what to do. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> I've got bigger problems than the OM. The therapist kicked me out and I'm inthe waiting room. He's trying to talk her down after she decided to start talking about walking out of the marriage right now. He said he hadn't heard that from her before and now they are talking alone. At this point the OM is nothing if she walks out today...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

And after you blow the OM up. Do NOT apologize to anyone. Just stick to "honest and transparency are the bedrock of a healthy marriage". I simply told his W the truth - thats all. And I would do it again.




MEM11363 said:


> Now let us help you. She is not walking away from you. She is walking towards him. I would blow him up right now. Right now I would call his W. Keep it short and sweet - offer her the emails if she wants them.
> 
> And then I would stay calm and constructive with your W. She is trying SO hard to have it both ways. You as plan B, and him as plan A. Once his wife plugs in he will have an interesting situation on his hands.
> 
> There are no guarantees here. She and he might leave you and his wife for each other. But that outcome is fairly rare. Stay calm and firm and tell her she needs to choose. This is an incredibly rare opportunity to show strength and courage. Use it.
> 
> Affaircare has THE BEST posts on specifically what to do.


----------



## Atholk

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I've got bigger problems than the OM. The therapist kicked me out and I'm inthe waiting room. He's trying to talk her down after she decided to start talking about walking out of the marriage right now. He said he hadn't heard that from her before and now they are talking alone. At this point the OM is nothing if she walks out today...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You aren't taking any action, so you are losing her to him.


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## alphaomega

MNG!

Ok. If I was your best friend, I would kick you in the nuts right now! No offence. And only because I care. But you NEED to listen to the advice here!
She's using the walkout threat to put you in a lesser power position, to make U back down. Don't give her that power! 
Tell her straight out..'Well, ok, if that's what u want. Your free to go.'. Then watch her backpedal her stance.

Yes...I agree. Time to let the guns sound on this one. Expose!

Be the strongest man u can be...and don't take crap!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega

..And....

NO FEAR!

You can insert battle cry here...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ooogles

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I've got bigger problems than the OM. The therapist kicked me out and I'm inthe waiting room. He's trying to talk her down after she decided to start talking about walking out of the marriage right now. He said he hadn't heard that from her before and now they are talking alone. At this point the OM is nothing if she walks out today...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As a woman, I can say with 100% certainty that your wife is garbage. She said she felt no connection with you. As much as it hurts, believe her. What she said is woman language for 'you are like furniture to me'. This is harsh but you need to hear it. There is nothing you can do to make her feel connected to you. She will always be looking for someone else. Leave so you can find true love. She's not it.


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## MEM2020

Ooogles,
This is not constructive. His W hasn't cheated yet. She is in the fog. That doesn't make her disposable. 




Ooogles said:


> As a woman, I can say with 100% certainty that your wife is garbage. She said she felt no connection with you. As much as it hurts, believe her. What she said is woman language for 'you are like furniture to me'. This is harsh but you need to hear it. There is nothing you can do to make her feel connected to you. She will always be looking for someone else. Leave so you can find true love. She's not it.


----------



## Ooogles

So stay with her because she hasn't cheated yet? And then what after 'the fog'? She'll be his happily ever after? I promise you, she's going to follow her passions and leave. What I've said is most constructive. He's chasing his tail with her.


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## 06hdfxdwg

My friend,you apparently are going down here because you wont take off the rose colored glasses. My opinion is you take the attitude that if you're gonna go down then so is the other guy. I'd spill the beans to his wife if i were you and then make plans to be single again soon. Hey,if youre marriage works out while ur waiting for your divorce to go through,then fine,but if not,then at least you went out in a blaze of glory and took him down with you. Do you really want to make her and your marriage a priority when she only makes you an option?? You're *****footin around and just giving her more time to plan her escape. I'd pack her **** and toss her a$$ out,like PRONTO. If she wants to go to counseling then she can do it from a different address. You're letting her have her cake and eat it too and you'll be the one who loses,trust me.


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## Atholk

Incidently, the counselor has moved you further away from her unwittingly. Letting yourself be kicked out of the counseling session was a display of weakness, you should have said something in that session about the other man. Right now the counselor doesn't know about him, so she'd inadvertantly supported your wife's position that you are the one that is screwing up the relationship and that she is the one that is deciding whether or not you should be allowed to stay in the marriage.

So you're paying money to have someone help end your marriage.

Expose to the other man's wife right now and kick your wife out of the house. Let the counselor know the situation.


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## F-102

MEM11363 said:


> Ooogles,
> This is not constructive. His W hasn't cheated yet. She is in the fog. That doesn't make her disposable.


And why not? She is making him disposable.


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## nice777guy

Any updates? Hoping things will improve...


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## Conrad

F-102 said:


> And why not? She is making him disposable.


I disagree.

There will be PLENTY of time for this kind of thinking and acting if this goes the wrong way.


----------



## alphaomega

Conrad said:


> I disagree.
> 
> There will be PLENTY of time for this kind of thinking and acting if this goes the wrong way.


I agree to Conrad disagreeing. MNG is going after what he wants. He just has to be strong and not take crap and buy into her manipulations. MNG, time for some manly war my friend!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Updates... W had a major meltdown last night and said she wanted to separate. She was ready to move out, but the only problem is that we don't have enough money for her to move anywhere so she said she'd sleep in her office downstairs for a while. Guess what, this morning she didn't like that and wants to move back upstairs!

I have my finger on the trigger for the nuclear option. I'm ready to expose this whole thing to the other man's wife, the funny thing is that monitoring their emails the had a break up three days ago and haven't communicated since (as far as I can tell). He's concerned it's getting too hot and she wants her space from him! Go figure!

While I wouldn't say she is engaged, she is pleasant to be around today and pretty chatty, if sleepy from sleeping on her couch downstairs! Ha!

Counselor knew about affair for maybe a month or so before she told me about it. It was so stupid of me last week when she told me to just roll over and not do anything because she really tried to escalate it with the OM right after she talked to me. Telling me must've given her approval to move forward with a bigger affair. 

I have a meeting with counselor on Tuesday and I am going to ask him point blank how he is going to help me end this affair. If I don't get an adequate response from him, I'm going straight to this guys wife... I'm really done with this now. It's really gotten stupid. I have a business, kids and house that really don't need this BS going on. Thanks for all your help. I take everything you all say seriously but need to weigh my options before I pull the trigger... (I know, I know I should've done it last week but really does another day or two hurt?)


----------



## greenpearl

If you don't feel hurt, then prolong another week or two is no big deal, and it gives you more time to think. 

When we do something, we have to be careful and do more thinking. Being impulsive is never good. 

She has to make sure what she really wants, stay with you and work out your relationship; or walk out and start another one. 

But she'd better make sure she still has these options.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Oh... I'm so dumb... I just read through some emails they sent each other last night. They want to take it "slow" and go on some "dates" to see if they are a right match for each other! WTF? Ok this thing is getting blown up tomorrow... Calling the OMW and blowing the hell out of this thing... argh... Thankfully, I think I'm really catching this thing in the beginning.

What is the best way to contact her? I'm afraid he is monitoring her email. I am the OMW's friend on Facebook. I do have her cell number. Should I call her and meet her somewhere or is just good enough to pull the trigger over the phone?

Someone said this is called "cake eating", living at home with your kids and husband and then also having a boyfriend on the side seeing if that works out better.. it's a classic affair...


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Oh... I'm so dumb... I just read through some emails they sent each other last night. They want to take it "slow" and go on some "dates" to see if they are a right match for each other! WTF? Ok this thing is getting blown up tomorrow... Calling the OMW and blowing the hell out of this thing... argh... Thankfully, I think I'm really catching this thing in the beginning.
> 
> What is the best way to contact her? I'm afraid he is monitoring her email. I am the OMW's friend on Facebook. I do have her cell number. Should I call her and meet her somewhere or is just good enough to pull the trigger over the phone?
> 
> Someone said this is called "cake eating", living at home with your kids and husband and then also having a boyfriend on the side seeing if that works out better.. it's a classic affair...


MNG,

I am truly sorry this is happening. But, it's clear you've now had enough of this Mickey Mouse to take some action.

That's a good thing.

A phone call is more than sufficient.

Just give her a call first thing this morning. If she doesn't answer, just leave a short message asking her to call you.

Nothing dramatic.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad, is it sufficient to tell just the OMW. On some other websites, they suggest to tell all family members and friends to have maximum impact. I'm pretty sure if I tell the OMW, this will all go away pretty quickly... Unless his wife doesn't care (not likely)...


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Conrad, is it sufficient to tell just the OMW. On some other websites, they suggest to tell all family members and friends to have maximum impact. I'm pretty sure if I tell the OMW, this will all go away pretty quickly... Unless his wife doesn't care (not likely)...


Depends on what you want.

You have to feel very hurt and betrayed by this.

What's necessary is to put a stop to this right now.

This phone call will do it.

You can then gauge your wife's reaction. If additional steps are necessary, you can take them at that time.

However, after you call her. I'd call him. You can then have that conversation MEM outlined. And don't tell him you've spoken to his wife.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Do I tell my wife what I did? Or just let things unravel?



Conrad said:


> Depends on what you want.
> 
> You have to feel very hurt and betrayed by this.
> 
> What's necessary is to put a stop to this right now.
> 
> This phone call will do it.
> 
> You can then gauge your wife's reaction. If additional steps are necessary, you can take them at that time.
> 
> However, after you call her. I'd call him. You can then have that conversation MEM outlined. And don't tell him you've spoken to his wife.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Do I tell my wife what I did? Or just let things unravel?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let them unravel.

She'll come to you.

You will stay cool, calm, and in control.

Alpha dog.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Got a couple more hours of needed sleep and I'm feel pretty confident now. I know how this is going to go down. 

I call OMW and tell her. She may or may not have a clue, but probably will not be happy.

She confronts OM

OM (who is a complete beta, ***** whipped non integrated male) will somehow contact my wife

Wife comes to me furious that I blew this open

Wife probably moves out for a few days. May or may not come back.

I'm not sure how much is left to save of our marriage. She has always left a door open in our conversations. Just two days ago when she want a separation (after talking to a friend about the affair who gave her approval basically) and even in the heat of all that "I want to move out, there is nothing here, I don't trust you anymore" stuff she STILL said that she didn't want a divorce right away and that a six month separation was best and we'll see at the end of that time. She has waffled so much in the last month, from almost having sex, to wanting to walk out that I can only believe she is not thinking clearly and is the FOG. Just yesterday morning she backpedaled a bit on the separation saying that she is not out of this marriage yet and wanted me to step up and be the rock and centered. Well this is the first step in that process!

I guess my question right now is that I'm pretty sure how this is going to go down today. I will be the Alpha Dog and The Rock. How long does it take the wife to come out of the FOG usually? When she does, what can I expect?


----------



## nice777guy

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Wife comes to me furious that I blew this open
> 
> Wife probably moves out for a few days. May or may not come back.


I might be wrong, but blowing this up should kill the separation idea. If it goes according to plan, there will no longer be another guy to support her (emotionally) if she leaves.

If you blow it up, its no longer "cake eating" for her. She'll have some tough choices to make and will no longer have that "affair high."

You also asked how long will it take her to come out of the fog. To be honest, not everyone comes out soon enough to save the marriage. Doing these things gives you the "best chance" for things to work out - but there are NO guarantees.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

From the sounds of it, she's been playing you. I'm "almost ready" to have sex (with HIM!).

What you will do today is show her your masculine mettle. She's completely disrespecting it.

You're going to blow her up to the OM and his wife. You have NOT blown her up to "everyone that's important to her". It's actually vital she realize you don't wish to hurt her - you just wish to stand up for yourself.

However, if she wishes to continue to hurt you, you have plenty of disclosures you can/will make. So, if she wants out, make sure she knows what that means.

You will be "covering" for her with no one.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I did it. The OMW seemed skeptical. She said she needed a day or two to process and will bring it with the OM and get back to me. There is no direct evidence of sex but at the least the OMW will put a stop to it. I feel relief but it may take a day or two fully make it back to my wife.I sent the last few emails and I hope that does it. 



Conrad said:


> MNG,
> 
> From the sounds of it, she's been playing you. I'm "almost ready" to have sex (with HIM!).
> 
> What you will do today is show her your masculine mettle. She's completely disrespecting it.
> 
> You're going to blow her up to the OM and his wife. You have NOT blown her up to "everyone that's important to her". It's actually vital she realize you don't wish to hurt her - you just wish to stand up for yourself.
> 
> However, if she wishes to continue to hurt you, you have plenty of disclosures you can/will make. So, if she wants out, make sure she knows what that means.
> 
> You will be "covering" for her with no one.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

Or they will try to paint you as paranoid and controlling, to make it about you and deflect. Regardless of whether she believes you, she will be paying more attention to her husband's behavior.

Hope you have printed off a number of those mails.


----------



## Powerbane

Deejo said:


> Or they will try to paint you as paranoid and controlling, to make it about you and deflect. Regardless of whether she believes you, she will be paying more attention to her husband's behavior.
> 
> Hope you have printed off a number of those mails.


Hope you sent her the emails!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I did it. The OMW seemed skeptical. She said she needed a day or two to process and will bring it with the OM and get back to me. There is no direct evidence of sex but at the least the OMW will put a stop to it. I feel relief but it may take a day or two fully make it back to my wife.I sent the last few emails and I hope that does it.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You ready to call him now?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I sent her several of the most damning emails. I'm pretty sure she'll help put a stop to it. 



Powerbane said:


> Hope you sent her the emails!!!!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

Conrad said:


> You ready to call him now?


Also a good idea. That definitely doesn't need to be a long conversation. 
"Your wife knows. Back off." *click*


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> You ready to call him now?


Do I let the wife handle it? She is going to talk to him soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nice777guy

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Do I let the wife handle it? She is going to talk to him soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think you want your wife to talk to this guy...unless its a letter of no contact - or a phone call with you standing right next to her to tell him its totally over.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

nice777guy said:


> I don't think you want your wife to talk to this guy...unless its a letter of no contact - or a phone call with you standing right next to her to tell him its totally over.


I should have said the other mans wife handle the news. They are on vacation with their kids this week and going to tough to get private time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Do I let the wife handle it? She is going to talk to him soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only do what you are comfortable with.

But do keep in mind ... he's going to deny it, and she is going to want to believe that you are delusional, not that her husband is a cheater.

In summary, for me, no, I would not let her handle it. I am actually an advocate of confronting the SOB, but I recognize that this is probably way out of most people's comfort zone, or in some cases may be ill advised.

If what you say about this guy is true? I'd put him on notice that you are prepared to burn down his marriage if he insists on pushing himself into yours, or just use the simple quick phone call I indicated above.


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I guess my question right now is that I'm pretty sure how this is going to go down today. I will be the Alpha Dog and The Rock. How long does it take the wife to come out of the FOG usually? When she does, what can I expect?


MNG, maybe a DS looks like they’re in a fog from an observer’s point of view. It looks like the DS doesn’t know whether to stay or leave, they deceive and lie and blame and deny even the most profoundly obvious things. Anybody observing that type of behaviour may well conclude the DS is in a “fog”.

But is the DS actually in a fog? I for one very much doubt it. Their affair is planned like a seditious military behind the lines operation. And they have all their stories lined up about what to do and say if they get caught. I don’t think the DS is in a fog at all. In fact far from it.

Sounds to make like your DS’s plan is to remain in your “camp” while she tests out the waters in the OM’s camp and she’ll be very clear in her own mind what her plan is and what to do if she gets caught out.

Bob


----------



## Powerbane

As much torment and turmoil you can make for the OM the better at this point. I would call him now too! 

He wants to mess with your house - bah - he messed with the wrong one - especially since OMW now has the damning evidence too!

Good on you for sticking up for your marriage!

Now - what is your plan for when your wife discovers the exposure?

Plan A Plan A Plan A and keep on investigating until youre sure it's dead!

Careful and hold your tongue - be as calm as you can through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

He knows now. Let the fireworks begin. 





Powerbane said:


> As much torment and turmoil you can make for the OM the better at this point. I would call him now too!
> 
> He wants to mess with your house - bah - he messed with the wrong one - especially since OMW now has the damning evidence too!
> 
> Good on you for sticking up for your marriage!
> 
> Now - what is your plan for when your wife discovers the exposure?
> 
> Plan A Plan A Plan A and keep on investigating until youre sure it's dead!
> 
> Careful and hold your tongue - be as calm as you can through this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nice777guy

Hey - that took some guts!

You're wife will be pi$$ed - and she'll take it out on you. Just be ready for it.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

great! I'm ready for it and pretty pissed off myself!



nice777guy said:


> Hey - that took some guts!
> 
> You're wife will be pi$$ed - and she'll take it out on you. Just be ready for it.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

Congrats on the first day of the rest of your life.

You stood tall.


----------



## nice777guy

You might want to post some of this in the Infidelity section.

You've stopped, or at least slowed down a potential affair.

But you also need to start thinking about how to get your wife back and making sure this never happens again. Or making sure that she doesn't go right back to him when he comes home from vacation.

So - at this point - I'm not sure that being pi$$ed will help you much.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> great! I'm ready for it and pretty pissed off myself!
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MNG,

Don't spit the bit now!

Time to really stand tall. You are not going to fight her about this. Cool, detached, calm. You hold all the aces. Let her throw the temper tantrum. Show her how ineffective it is.

DO NOT ENGAGE.

"How is this helpful?"

"I don't like where this is headed"

"You would never accept this sort of treatment from me..."

All dead cold and without your pulse even moving.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I've been through so much with her the past couple weeks I've become somewhat detached from it all. Not much she can say that will phase me at this point!



Conrad said:


> MNG,
> 
> Don't spit the bit now!
> 
> Time to really stand tall. You are not going to fight her about this. Cool, detached, calm. You hold all the aces. Let her throw the temper tantrum. Show her how ineffective it is.
> 
> DO NOT ENGAGE.
> 
> "How is this helpful?"
> 
> "I don't like where this is headed"
> 
> "You would never accept this sort of treatment from me..."
> 
> All dead cold and without your pulse even moving.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IanIronwood

Just caught up with the posts. You might want to sneak back into her mail account one last time and have any future emails from him or to him get automatically forwarded to a dummy account that you can check from time to time. 

And if you really want to pee in her cornflakes, then have all his future emails go directly to trash.

Good luck, man. Don't back down. If she loves you, she needs to fight for you. If she doesn't love you . . . make it hurt.


----------



## IanIronwood

IanIronwood said:


> Just caught up with the posts. You might want to sneak back into her mail account one last time and have any future emails from him or to him get automatically forwarded to a dummy account that you can check from time to time.
> 
> And if you really want to pee in her cornflakes, then have all his future emails go directly to trash.
> 
> Good luck, man. Don't back down. If she loves you, she needs to fight for you. If she doesn't love you . . . make it hurt.


Oh, and in my part of the world the next time he contacts her, he would get a righteous @$$ kicking. But I live in the civilized South. Your mileage and local customs may vary.


----------



## Powerbane

You may even want to consider a fuller and wider exposure to your wifes family and your family and close friends. 

Why? Because the more people that know the more pressure will be put on the affair to break. 

Good luck and remember you have a support net here and other sites.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Wife just called and said it's over. She couldn't trust me ever now. She is moving out by the end of the week. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> I've been through so much with her the past couple weeks I've become somewhat detached from it all. Not much she can say that will phase me at this point!
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IanIronwood

Powerbane said:


> You may even want to consider a fuller and wider exposure to your wifes family and your family and close friends.
> 
> Why? Because the more people that know the more pressure will be put on the affair to break.
> 
> Good luck and remember you have a support net here and other sites.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd let it fester a little at the level you've set it. It's possible this will be enough of a wake-up call for her to get introspective about your relationship, and may even come to a reconciliation. Widening the exposure at this point isn't putting on pressure, it's piling on and making a chaotic situation that much crazier, and that could spiral out of control very quickly. Remember, you can't un-tell someone about it. Be wise. Be firm. Be strong.


----------



## eagleclaw

That's expected. And interesting..... SHE can't TRUST YOU now........ I hope you see the irony in that. Hold fast. She will get angry and direct all her frustration at you for now. Only once she see's your resolve, your strength, and what she stands to lose do you have a chance. I would also put the onus on her that it's SHE who needs to earn YOUR trust. She isn't holding all the cards anymore and if she get her head staight, and wants to reconcile - then she has some work to do. Balls in her court so to speak.


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Wife just called and said it's over. She couldn't trust me ever now. She is moving out by the end of the week.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dude, I'm so sorry.

Withdraw every dime in your account in cash, now. You won't get a second chance. Then pack her stuff and leave it on the porch outside. Get the locks changed. 

And when it comes to trust, it's pretty obvious that she's the one who blew that when she started flirting with this other guy. When she did that, she pretty much killed the trust issue for both of you. "I can't trust you anymore" is what guilty people say to assuage their own conscience. You should laugh bitterly in her face.

I know you're going to feel some serious pain about this, but don't back down. Either she's going to come to her senses and try to reconcile soon -- and I'm not telling you not to listen -- or she's going to stick with her decision. But if you apologize for what you've done or otherwise give ground right now, then no matter how nice she plays you're gonna lose. Embrace the pain and allow it to turn into righteous fury. Use that. But be calm, at all times. Be angry, but don't let the anger control you. Steely pride and cool sense of purpose. Your highest priority now is to take care of the children she's abandoning. Focus on that, and let the rest of it handle itself.

Good luck. And may the force be with you.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Wife just called and said it's over. She couldn't trust me ever now. She is moving out by the end of the week.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"She couldn't trust you" - ever. That's really rich.

Wait until she moves out. Then you can tell everyone.

In the meantime, stay the course.

This is the testing time. Totally calm and cool.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Hey - that took some guts!
> 
> You're wife will be pi$$ed - and she'll take it out on you. Just be ready for it.


Mr. Nice Guy,

In all seriousness, my wife and I have been through PLENTY. Both have said many things we wish we'd never said.

There have been promises to move out. There have been threats. There has been allegations that we'd never believe in the other one again - ever.

We're happier now than 2 people have any right to be.

You did the only thing you could reasonably do. One could argue you should have just dealt directly with him, but he sounds like the kind of ferret that would want to get her mad enough to move out anyway.

So, don't second guess yourself. Think about how you'd have felt if she'd have gone through with a physical affair (WHICH SHE WAS PLANNING TO DO) and you'd have stood idly by and done nothing.

This was a shot across the bow and the only road to set things right.


----------



## Powerbane

You're fighting for your marriage. Just reiterate that. You've done nothing except to call attention to the affair. If it's so great then why not tell the world. 

You see - affairs thrive in secrecy. You blew the doors right off of it. 

My bet is that she changes her mind when the reality that the fantasy is broken. 

Pack her stuff, leave it at the door and change the locks. 

She will come around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eagleclaw

within a month I would bet..........


----------



## IanIronwood

eagleclaw said:


> within a month I would bet..........


I give it until Friday, or so, after a few days of not returning calls or emails and making her stay somewhere else. Freeze her @$$ off for a while. Call the counselor and cancel your sessions (she doesn't want to be married any more) to put additional pressure on her. (While your at it, thank that counselor for hastening the end of your marriage by not killing the EA idea in sessions. Helpful, that.) I'd wait until the weekend to notify friends and family, just to see how things shake out. 

But when she inevitably wants to talk, and she will, then maintain your fury and your position and *don't back down*. Hold her to account. I'd need to see a major act of contrition on her part just to get me to the table. She may come to the conclusion that a) she doesn't really want to end the marriage b)she wants to "work things out" c) she wants to stay in it for the kids and d) she was really angry at the time and didn't mean what she said.

Yadda. Yadda. Yadda. Actions speak louder than words. If there is a trust issue here, it's on her, not you. 

And if she doesn't want to work it out . . . start calling old girlfriends and all those women who flirted with you but didn't take it too far because you were married.

'Cause, at the moment, you ain't.


----------



## Powerbane

eagleclaw said:


> within a month I would bet..........


And with those emails - you know the OM is having fun getting a beatdown from his wife!

Do your kids know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I know he is he just emailed me saying he wished I hadn't told his wife!



Powerbane said:


> And with those emails - you know the OM is having fun getting a beatdown from his wife!
> 
> Do your kids know?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WhereAmI

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I know he is he just emailed me saying he wished I hadn't told his wife!
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:

He should be wishing he never got involved with your wife. Pure craziness.


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I know he is he just emailed me saying he wished I hadn't told his wife!
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should reply that you wished he hadn't ended your relationship with yours. Maybe if he hadn't been trying to seduce her, his life wouldn't be so uncomfortable right now. Life is hard. Sucks to be you. Hope you know a good attorney, *******. You made the bed, now lie in it.

That's all the response he should get, unless you want to pump him for information. For example, ask him whether he used a condom when he did your wife. That will hurt to write, and I'm sure he'll deny it, but if HIS wife goes through his mail (and she's likely to) then that will be tough to explain.

Stay strong, man.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I know he is he just emailed me saying he wished I hadn't told his wife!
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You absolutely nuked both of them.

They really did not think you had it in you.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

wife just called and wants to move out right away and split everything up. Unfortunately there isn't enough money between for her to do that. She is waiting at the house now. I'm tired of being pushed around. 



Conrad said:


> You absolutely nuked both of them.
> 
> They really did not think you had it in you.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Powerbane

Hold your ground and stay calm. 

Is there a witness that can go with you?

And if anyone goes it's her! You and the kids stay put. 

You should ask her if she is angry because she cheated and got exposed or if she is angry for you standing up for your marriage. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

Hope you are holding up ok.

Less said at this point the better.

Be advised that this will be yet another spine check. Don't sweat it.

Grenade has gone off. Expected fallout is occurring.

It ain't over til it's over ... and you have as much a say about that as she does.


----------



## Conrad

She left you no choice.

There is no way she would have accepted that behavior from you.

The fog will now lift and you will learn where you're at.

There's likely a chance at getting her back - if you actually want her back.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Just had a quick talk with her. She says it's done. She moving out when she gets a job... which could be weeks. We are going to maintain the relationship we've had for the past couple of weeks where we are sleeping in separate beds. She said she wished I had come to her first, but the damage is done. She never loved me (really?) and she is canceling the therapy sessions. She was very calm about it all... I just said that she is welcome her and I love her and I will never deny the kids from her very calmly...


----------



## Conrad

This is what I hear:

Damn, I'm mad that you caught me.

I had this web of deceit worked out where I could test the waters with my buddy while economically secure (from the sweat off your brow)

Now I'm going to have to get a job!

Now, I'm going to have to see what sort of lifestyle I can carve out for myself.

I "know" I don't want you - and I "never really loved you" (or how else could I justify the hideous things I've just done)

And DAMN YOU - how do you dare call me on this!

MNG - these are the seeds of respect going forward.

1) The beginning of her realizing what the economic security she took for granted means

2) Missing her kids - as she moves out

3) No more other man - as he'll tuck tail - FOR SURE (that's why she's so mad)

You see what we're driving at here.

This is not over - if you don't wish for it to be over.


----------



## Grayson

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Just had a quick talk with her. She says it's done. She moving out when she gets a job... which could be weeks. We are going to maintain the relationship we've had for the past couple of weeks where we are sleeping in separate beds. She said she wished I had come to her first, but the damage is done. She never loved me (really?) and she is canceling the therapy sessions. She was very calm about it all... I just said that she is welcome her and I love her and I will never deny the kids from her very calmly...


From what I've read, you DID go to her first. She kept circling back around to him. I hope you told her that.

And, if she's done, she's done. You are not running a DS hostel. She can stay with friends or family until she can afford someplace on her own. Rest assured, if your roles were reversed, she wouldn't tolerate your presence under the same roof.

There may still be a chance to salvage the marriage...if both of you want to. At this point, the ball's in her court, and time to put up or shut up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

One more thing.

Stop telling her you love her.

Think about what it means right now.

It's a "reward" for what she's done.

It spells d-o-o-r-m-a-t.


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## nice777guy

I was assuming that the point of blowing this up was to save your marriage...is that correct?

If you want to save your marriage then - as Deejo said - the less said, the better.

And her saying its "over" could mean she's truly thought things through - or she's just really pi$$ed and wanting to hurt you. Its not "over" until divorce papers have been signed.


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## MisterNiceGuy

I did go to her first. I brought it up in therapy last week that I can't move forward with this R unless she stops seeing him and then they exchanged a series of emails ramping it up of all things. 

We really don't have money, friends or family in the area that she can stay with. She is very calm right now. I only said ILY once... but she knows how pissed I am... She said she wants to keep it calm and orderly... Do I really have to add insult to injury and kick her out?

I'm going to avoid her for as long as it takes... could be days or weeks, but I'm going to do my own thing for a while...


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## MisterNiceGuy

Oh by the way, she did just admit that her best friend knew all about it too... women are so devious! OMW, my wife and the best friend are all very close yet my wife and her best friend could sneak around talking about it behind the back of the OMW they all hang out with... the web of lies never ends!


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## alphaomega

MisterNiceGuy NO MORE!

You stood up for your nuts! That's awesome. Actually, thus is playing out just like It did for my wifes EA after I kicked her out. I got the " I can't trust you" anymore excuse also, plus a million other words of hate. I just stayed calm, and kept saying..." are you packed yet?". Then, I went out a lot with my friends, my kids, anything to show her I was moving on and didn't need her to make me happy. 

After to months of showing her I was moving on, she came back. Your wife may too, as long as you keep strong and calm!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

This is exactly how it feels... Her reaction is more like DAMN you really nailed me on this! How dare you! I think the respect meter just moved off of zero for the first time in years...



Conrad said:


> This is what I hear:
> 
> Damn, I'm mad that you caught me.
> 
> I had this web of deceit worked out where I could test the waters with my buddy while economically secure (from the sweat off your brow)
> 
> Now I'm going to have to get a job!
> 
> Now, I'm going to have to see what sort of lifestyle I can carve out for myself.
> 
> I "know" I don't want you - and I "never really loved you" (or how else could I justify the hideous things I've just done)
> 
> And DAMN YOU - how do you dare call me on this!
> 
> MNG - these are the seeds of respect going forward.
> 
> 1) The beginning of her realizing what the economic security she took for granted means
> 
> 2) Missing her kids - as she moves out
> 
> 3) No more other man - as he'll tuck tail - FOR SURE (that's why she's so mad)
> 
> You see what we're driving at here.
> 
> This is not over - if you don't wish for it to be over.


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I did go to her first. I brought it up in therapy last week that I can't move forward with this R unless she stops seeing him and then they exchanged a series of emails ramping it up of all things.
> 
> We really don't have money, friends or family in the area that she can stay with. She is very calm right now. I only said ILY once... but she knows how pissed I am... She said she wants to keep it calm and orderly... Do I really have to add insult to injury and kick her out?
> 
> I'm going to avoid her for as long as it takes... could be days or weeks, but I'm going to do my own thing for a while...


Of course no "I love yous", that ship has sailed. You're still being far too kind. Tonight look up women's shelters for her to go to tomorrow. Heck, pack her bags for her tonight. No reason that she should delay it -- if "it's over", then it should be over. If you make it too comfortable for her, she's going to use you like a rental car, dude. 

It's not your problem (or the kids) that she ended the relationship. Give her her stuff and let her sweat it out on the street. Give her one last night home, but after that it isn't fair to you or the children to let her stay, since she's the one who broke the domestic partnership here. Whatever money there is, put it out of her reach. If her car is in your name, disable it. Cancel her insurance, her health insurance, credit cars, everything else. Set up your own bank account tomorrow and talk to your landlord about getting the lease in your name alone.

All this sounds harsh, and yes, you're hurting. I agree with most of the rest of the board, a reconciliation is possible -- but those strong-arm tactics now improve her bargaining position dramatically. Once she truly realizes what she's lost, only then will she be able to gain the perspective she needs to see if she really loves you. Letting her stay more than one night is tacitly approving her affair, condoning her unilateral decision to end the marriage, and inviting further abuse in the future. 

In other words, she doesn't respect you, man. MAKE HER RESPECT YOU. If you don't, she never will . . . and neither will the next woman. 

I mean, what's she gonna do? Cut you off?

Strength. Honor. Courage. Therein lies your salvation.


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## Grayson

MisterNiceGuy said:


> We really don't have money, friends or family in the area that she can stay with. She is very calm right now. I only said ILY once... but she knows how pissed I am... She said she wants to keep it calm and orderly... Do I really have to add insult to injury and kick her out?


She's the only one adding insult to injury...by staying. She's said she's done...that she's going to move out. Well, time for he to put on her grown-up panties, follow through on this promise (since she broke the promises to break contact with him) and live with the consequences of her actions. And, make no mistake, although she'll likely try to make you believe that the current circumstances are due to your actions, they are not...SHE chose to begin her EA, not you. SHE chose to tell you she was ending it yet continued, not you. And, once you took action - the only action remaining to you, SHE said she was done and moving out, not you.

If she has no one to stay with, well...harsh as it is to say, it sucks to be her. That's one of the many things she didn't take into consideration when starting down this path. If she's truly "done," she needs to start living her own life, and since she currently doesn't want that life to include you, why would she want to stay under the same roof with you, other than for you to continue to support her as if nothing had happened?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood

alphaomega said:


> MisterNiceGuy NO MORE!
> 
> You stood up for your nuts! That's awesome. Actually, thus is playing out just like It did for my wifes EA after I kicked her out. I got the " I can't trust you" anymore excuse also, plus a million other words of hate. I just stayed calm, and kept saying..." are you packed yet?". Then, I went out a lot with my friends, my kids, anything to show her I was moving on and didn't need her to make me happy.
> 
> After to months of showing her I was moving on, she came back. Your wife may too, as long as you keep strong and calm!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Word. Time for a manly display of testosterone, entitled "Takin' Care Of My Own Bidness WithOUT you now". The moment you call up another woman for a date, she'll be devestated. Heck, the moment you admit to her that you're looking forward to asking ______________ out finally will tear at her soul. 

Maybe that will get it through her head that yes, you do have a spine. And balls.

Which she would know, if she'd paid attention to them more.

Keep the updates coming . . .


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## MisterNiceGuy

She just texted me and she wants to fly across country to visit her parents and take the kids with her. Not sure that is a good idea to take the kids with her in this state. But it will be good to spend some time apart. In the back of my mind she could be just trying to move out, but I really doubt that. She hate that part of the country. There are no jobs and all her friends and stuff is here.


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## Grayson

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She just texted me and she wants to fly across country to visit her parents and take the kids with her. Not sure that is a good idea to take the kids with her in this state. But it will be good to spend some time apart. In the back of my mind she could be just trying to move out, but I really doubt that. She hate that part of the country. There are no jobs and all her friends and stuff is here.


SHE can go.

The kids have school to attend. They should stay home.

And that's not just a tactic...it's truth. If they're school age, their continued education trumps her need to lick her wounds, paint you as a bad guy, and potentially never bring them home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She just texted me and she wants to fly across country to visit her parents and take the kids with her. Not sure that is a good idea to take the kids with her in this state. But it will be good to spend some time apart. In the back of my mind she could be just trying to move out, but I really doubt that. She hate that part of the country. There are no jobs and all her friends and stuff is here.


DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE ALLOW HER TO LEAVE THE STATE WITH THE CHILDREN OR YOU WILL NEVER SEE THEM AGAIN!

Sure, she can go home to Mommy. Let her. 

But the kids? You aren't the one who's leaving. They stay with YOU. Believe me, your court position will be much, much stronger. ANd it will also emphasize just how much she's destroyed things.

Hmmm. Come to think about it, perhaps you should call her folks, too, just to explain why things are going poorly. It's QUITE possible that they'll be sympathetic, even take your side. I mean, can't hurt nothin' at this point. And they might be able to put additional pressure on her. I suppose it all falls to what kind of relationship you have with them. But assure them that they are welcome to visit the grandkids at any time, but for the time being you need to keep an eye on them and see if they need counseling for what their mother has done.


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## Powerbane

Do not let her take the kids. 

If she wants to go then go!

Call her folks and let them know what's going on ASAP!

Otherwise she will spin this into you being a psycho!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson

Powerbane said:


> Do not let her take the kids.
> 
> If she wants to go then go!
> 
> Call her folks and let them know what's going on ASAP!
> 
> Otherwise she will spin this into you being a psycho!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just to try injecting a little note of levity, even if it's dark humor....

If you choose to tell her parents, hopefully you don't have a mother-in-law like mine. After my wife's PA, had I tried that tactic, my MIL would have responded with, "It's about damn time she came to her senses. Tell her I'll pay for her to divorce your a$$. In the meantime, tell her to bring him ove here. I'll leave for as long as they need."


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

That would be my mother! Her mother would never react like that... I just texted her that until things stabilize she cannot take the kids out of state, she is welcome to go visit her parents for as long as she needs. Weeks, months, I don't care... It will help her get her head back on straight...


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## IanIronwood

Good show! Stand firm on that, now. And it will be interesting how she reacts. I'm gonna say . . . "I can't believe you're using our kids like that! They need to be with their mother!"

To which the only proper reply is, "their mother left their father, not the other way around. I'm not the one destroying our family out of selfishness . . . there's no doubt who decided to walk, is there?"

Actions have consequences. Maker her feel them.


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## MEM2020

MNG,
Good job. Just to clarify - in this context saying "ILY" means:
- I accept how you have been behaving
- AND I am saying "ILY" half because I want to know do YOU love me?

As for the kids and this trip - I have no opinion. PLEASE talk to a divorce attorney. I have no idea whether you can legally block her from taking the kids while you two are still married. You do not want to draw an "ILLEGAL" line in the sand.




MisterNiceGuy said:


> That would be my mother! Her mother would never react like that... I just texted her that until things stabilize she cannot take the kids out of state, she is welcome to go visit her parents for as long as she needs. Weeks, months, I don't care... It will help her get her head back on straight...


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## the guy

She will be doing damage control with her parents. You may need to break out the copies of those damaging Email you sent OMW, and getthem to her parent. This will let them know the truth on way she is visiting, this may prevent her from going.

If you let her take those kids out of school to go visit the IL you will never see them until you go to court, especialy if there is no court order preventing her from taking them period. 

Let things settle down, you knew it was going to be a sh*t storm, the dust will clear for her by the weekend, and the whole travel and moving and all her banter will change. In what direction who knows. But know that this step is complete, and the emails continue you will need to pull the trigger again if she doesn't stop contacting OM.

So if the NC is not implimented then her parents are next on the xposure list?

Don't loose sight of the prize, she is still in the fog and I hope she is closer to the edge then in the middle like she was last week.

Again I hope soon she will get to the edge of the fog bank and the NC is established, confirmed, and validated.

Have you gone down to the market and at the very least picked up some empty boxes. I'm thinking once shes sees a bunch of boxes laying around the house the reality of it all will help her get a few steps close to the edge of the fog.

I feel she will continue to lean toward her parents you may want to offer to help her pack some boxes and mail them to her parents. At the very least maybe the OM can hang on to them while she settles.

The point is, things like these small innuwendos, will then point to the realization of the consequences for her affair... may push her along in realizing that the fantisy is over. Lets face it, the affair is no more appealing as it once was. They have even mentioned it in the emails. Turn up the heat, Hell bring her stuff over there while shes away.

So continue to make this affair as uncomfortable as possible, and at the very least make it inconveinent as hell.

I want to believe the NC will happen, especially with the support of her parents, so going there would be good, just remember her "damage control" so take action, and keep the kids home.


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## greenpearl

Ianironwood,

Normally I don't disagree with men, but your method is very harsh towards a woman. 

She was wrong and she is wrong. 

But right now if MNG shuts her off totally, treats her like a piece of garbage, it is going to make her resent him even more. Don't forget, they have kids together, their relationship is over, but they still have kids, it is important for them to be civil, it is for their children's benefit. 

MNG is a nice man, she wants to leave, let her leave. No more feeling left, then end it. But when we end a relationship, it is better to end it without too much hurt involved, if we be nice, let the other person regret and feel shameful for what she has done, but don't cut her road. The kids need their mother. Never affect children too much with adult war. It is already bad, don't make it worse!


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## MisterNiceGuy

I have to say this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But I tell you when I made up my mind it was actually easy to pull the trigger. I was unemotional and calculated. I just emailed her mother and told her what was going on and to go easy on her and not judge her she needs support now... She went over to her best friends house. I don't know if I can look at her friend again since she helped enable this whole thing. It never dawned on me that she would be in on it but in hindsight I'm not surprised. My wife told me last week that her friend had not been in on it, but the web of lies was deep. I've pissed off a lot of people today... actually it wasn't me, but my wife by pulling the BS on me! I feel so relieved my anxiety level went down to almost nil this afternoon...


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## IanIronwood

the guy is right. Make it clear that you take her at her word, it's over, and you are already prepared to move on. And to move HER on. Packed suitcases might be enough. Seeing the kids off to school for the last time might be enough. You never know which little thing is going to break her, but this is one phenomenal sh!t-test. The only way to pass it and possibly regain her respect (and her) is to be resolute. The alternative is that you won't pass it and she'll move on . . . in which case you would have done some of the heavy lifting in a seperation you'd have to do anyway.

You just have to show that you're more pissed off and more intractable than she is. None of this roommates crap. That undermines your value as a father and husband, and if she isn't willing to take responsibility for her poorly-conceived action, that's her problem. As it is, I'd demand a pretty big act of contrition even to discuss anything but her moving her @$$ out of there, pronto. I mean, tears-in-her-eyes-dropping-to-her-knees-I-was-wrong-please-forgive-me style contrition. 

And that's just to talk. Anything less, give an inch now to being "reasonable" and "adult" about this, and you're handing her your balls all over again.


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## greenpearl

MNG,

As a human being, we all experience crashes in our lives, I remember it is about two or three times for each person on this planet. What you are experiencing now is what we have experienced before, the process hurt much more than the end, when the end comes, it is actually much more clearer, because now you know what your direction is. 

I don't think there is ever going to be a recover. It is good that you told her mom that she needs support. Don't beat a dog when it is already in a bad situation. Let her go, and hope she has a good life, because if she doesn't have a good life, she will keep on coming back to haunt you, and it won't help you move on! And it won't be good for your kids!


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## IanIronwood

greenpearl said:


> Ianironwood,
> 
> Normally I don't disagree with men, but your method is very harsh towards a woman.
> 
> She was wrong and she is wrong.
> 
> But right now if MNG shuts her off totally, treats her like a piece of garbage, it is going to make her resent him even more. Don't forget, they have kids together, their relationship is over, but they still have kids, it is important for them to be civil, it is for their children's benefit.
> 
> MNG is a nice man, she wants to leave, let her leave. No more feeling left, then end it. But when we end a relationship, it is better to end it without too much hurt involved, if we be nice, let the other person regret and feel shameful for what she has done, but don't cut her road. The kids need their mother. Never affect children too much with adult war. It is already bad, don't make it worse!


The woman just left him. Said she never loved him. Staying civil "for the sake of the kids" right now is the same thing as saying "Please kick me in the balls again!". The man has a right to be angry. He has a right to be hurt. And he has a right to deny the woman who hurt him -- his wife, whom he trusted -- a comfortable existance. 

If he's nice and civil, she'll never respect him. Avoiding resentment might be advisable if the other emotions involved weren't so powerful, but compared to heartbreak, anger, fury, and pain, a little resentment over her pretense of dignity isn't something he has to have a place for. If there is ever a time in a man's life when he's justified in getting angry, it's this kind of situation. 

Good show, emailing her mom. She probably still feels like if she waits it out, then you'll ask her to come back before she'll tell her folks about it. 

My guess? She's over at the OM's house, trying to repair things with his wife and assure her that nothing ever happened, and talking sh!t about you and your wild delusions. Either way, ain't your problem. But she'll probably come home just after midnight "to get a few things and maybe talk", after you've both calmed down and can be "reasonable".

Not a good time for "reasonable".


----------



## MEM2020

*No anger*

MNG,
Turns out that CALM is WAY WAY WAY more effective than anger. Anger means "ILY and need you and can't believe you are doing that". 

Instead calm, and firm. Whatever you do, make sure you have a legal basis. For example I don't think legally you CAN move her out. So don't try UNLESS a lawyer tells you that you are on rock solid ground. Just be matter of fact. 

Actually if it was me, I would say "Anything I can do to help you get a job, review your resume, etc. let me know". This is you showing total indifference. It will frighten her more than you can imagine. 

AND do NOT talk about how you are right and she is wrong. She knows that already. Talking is just you trying to "prove" your case. You have nothing to prove. You are the injured party - but don't even say THAT if you can avoid it. Just stay focused on her plans to move out, and your desire to help her. My guess is you have more than a 50-50 shot if you play the indifference / constructive assistance game. 




IanIronwood said:


> the guy is right. Make it clear that you take her at her word, it's over, and you are already prepared to move on. And to move HER on. Packed suitcases might be enough. Seeing the kids off to school for the last time might be enough. You never know which little thing is going to break her, but this is one phenomenal sh!t-test. The only way to pass it and possibly regain her respect (and her) is to be resolute. The alternative is that you won't pass it and she'll move on . . . in which case you would have done some of the heavy lifting in a seperation you'd have to do anyway.
> 
> You just have to show that you're more pissed off and more intractable than she is. None of this roommates crap. That undermines your value as a father and husband, and if she isn't willing to take responsibility for her poorly-conceived action, that's her problem. As it is, I'd demand a pretty big act of contrition even to discuss anything but her moving her @$$ out of there, pronto. I mean, tears-in-her-eyes-dropping-to-her-knees-I-was-wrong-please-forgive-me style contrition.
> 
> And that's just to talk. Anything less, give an inch now to being "reasonable" and "adult" about this, and you're handing her your balls all over again.


----------



## Grayson

MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> Good job. Just to clarify - in this context saying "ILY" means:
> - I accept how you have been behaving
> - AND I am saying "ILY" half because I want to know do YOU love me?
> 
> As for the kids and this trip - I have no opinion. PLEASE talk to a divorce attorney. I have no idea whether you can legally block her from taking the kids while you two are still married. You do not want to draw an "ILLEGAL" line in the sand.


Taking the kids out of state (and thus out of school) makes them truants, which is certainly illegal.

Unless MNG's wife legally withdraws them and declares that they're being home-schooled, the requirements and regulations of which vary from state to state.

Although, in a situation such as this, suggesting legal advice is never a bad call.

Meanwhile, she certainly can't claim any longer that she has no friends close enough to stay with til she gets on her feet...she's got one who was willing to cover up her actions not only with MNG, but with the OM's wife. Surely, this friend wouldn't balk at providing further assistance in the wake of the fallout of a bad situation she was comlicit in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood

*Re: No anger*



MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> Turns out that CALM is WAY WAY WAY more effective than anger. Anger means "ILY and need you and can't believe you are doing that".
> 
> Instead calm, and firm. Whatever you do, make sure you have a legal basis. For example I don't think legally you CAN move her out. So don't try UNLESS a lawyer tells you that you are on rock solid ground. Just be matter of fact.
> 
> Actually if it was me, I would say "Anything I can do to help you get a job, review your resume, etc. let me know". This is you showing total indifference. It will frighten her more than you can imagine.
> 
> AND do NOT talk about how you are right and she is wrong. She knows that already. Talking is just you trying to "prove" your case. You have nothing to prove. You are the injured party - but don't even say THAT if you can avoid it. Just stay focused on her plans to move out, and your desire to help her. My guess is you have more than a 50-50 shot if you play the indifference / constructive assistance game.



Point of clarification: I wasn't counseling that he flip out on her. On the contrary, you shold be the picture of calm.

But one can be angry and still be calm. Calm is about action. Anger is about feeling. Your points about indifference are well taken, though. That's one reason why I suggested he be "unreasonable" -- because being reasonable leads to talking leads to concessions leads to her suckering him. 

If I were you, pack her bags, have them waiting in the living room, and then you go sleep in the kids room. That way she'll not be able to sneak away with them . . . and when she asks if you want to talk, just say "no". She's said all that needed to be said. Calm, icy, indifferent. Nothing more to say to her.


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## greenpearl

IanIronwood

I don't want to start an argument with you here, this is MNG's thread. 

I don't want to make MNG feel bad, but don't let us ignore the fact why she started having this fog. 

Treating a person in a rude way will never gain that person's respect and grateful attitude. She was in a fog, she didn't know what she wanted, she took a wrong short cut to look for excitement, she made a mistake. 

MNG knows now it is over, she knows it is over, but how do you end this in a nice way, it needs wisdom.


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## bluesky

I have been following this thread.

You should be VERY proud of how you are handling this.
At this moment, you are doing all the right things.

Thank God for the forum......it can really help you make an informed decision.

BE STRONG.

She will come Crawling back.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Right now I'm really calm and centered. I don't have any rage. It seemed to have washed out of me for now. I am exhausted I can tell you that. I got up at 3:30 this morning and hardly got any more sleep. I'm going to have a couple of beers and go to bed early. I'm not sure when/if she is coming back from her friend's house tonight, I don't really care... I'm having a hard time getting worked up about it right now, but if she comes back I might get pissed off again...


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## IanIronwood

No more than ONE beer. Go to bed early . . . in the children's room. That should avoid any unpleasantness. 

And take the day off from work tomorrow. You got business to attend to.

And yes, I think she will come crawling back, once she realizes that you're serious and you're resolute. She's counting on you wanting her more than she thinks she wants you, and you folding like a cheap chair. Show some spine and some gonads, and she's going to know she made a mistake -- or at least f-ed-up her life beyond recognition over something stupid. 

But while she's in the process of discovering her tragic error, you don't need to hold her hand. She gave up that right when she told you it was over.


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## greenpearl

MNG, 

Being detached will really help you sooth everything out. 

When you care, when you show your desperation, you are in her control. When you are detached, no matter what she does, she can't influence you any more, then you are in your control, then you are intimidating to her. Then she knows that she can't take advantage of you any more. 

IanIronwood,

This is a marriage, this is a relationship. Never have the kind of attitude that she will come crawling back to you. When you give the other one this kind of impression, she will just not crawl back. People have dignity. If she crawls back, MNG should just stay away from her. I don't respect a person who crawls back.


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## MisterNiceGuy

She won't come crawling back, it's not in her nature... I'm still a recovering Nice Guy and I can hear in my lizard brain "if she comes crawling back, we can get this thing back on track!". I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I need to very distant for quite a while...


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She won't come crawling back, it's not in her nature... I'm still a recovering Nice Guy and I can hear in my lizard brain "if she comes crawling back, we can get this thing back on track!". I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I need to very distant for quite a while...


Keep us posted. I'm just saying that while it's in your best interest to act as if it's over . . . it might not be. Might take weeks or months, but this board is filled with people for whom just this sort of shock was the trigger for them re-inventing their relationships. So I wouldn't say it's hopeless, you should just _act _like it's hopeless. 

Or, y'know, you can just look forward to starting to date again.


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## the guy

Stay cool and don't even engage her when or if she comes home.

Remember there is only one thing you want from her and that is for her to stop all contact with OM......other then that who gives a sh*t.

Dont get to relaxed, while your throwing down a few beers she's doing damage control so be prepared for the next step.


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## MEM2020

All good advice. If you drink ANYTHING - do not speak to her afterwards. I don't care what she does or says. Be silent. Alcohol plus fatigue plus infidelity is a super volatile mix. 

You can listen to her - or even better shake your head and say "not tonight" and go in another room and close the door behind you. 

Do NOT comfort her if she cries. Just be indifferent. You have a shot here - if you are firm and cold she may fold like a cheap card table and come back and offer unconditional surrender. THAT needs to include a firm NC letter and phone call to the OM. And you might nudge HIS wife to force him to do the same. 




IanIronwood said:


> No more than ONE beer. Go to bed early . . . in the children's room. That should avoid any unpleasantness.
> 
> And take the day off from work tomorrow. You got business to attend to.
> 
> And yes, I think she will come crawling back, once she realizes that you're serious and you're resolute. She's counting on you wanting her more than she thinks she wants you, and you folding like a cheap chair. Show some spine and some gonads, and she's going to know she made a mistake -- or at least f-ed-up her life beyond recognition over something stupid.
> 
> But while she's in the process of discovering her tragic error, you don't need to hold her hand. She gave up that right when she told you it was over.


----------



## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> All good advice. If you drink ANYTHING - do not speak to her afterwards. I don't care what she does or says. Be silent. Alcohol plus fatigue plus infidelity is a super volatile mix.
> 
> You can listen to her - or even better shake your head and say "not tonight" and go in another room and close the door behind you.
> 
> Do NOT comfort her if she cries. Just be indifferent. You have a shot here - if you are firm and cold she may fold like a cheap card table and come back and offer unconditional surrender. THAT needs to include a firm NC letter and phone call to the OM. And you might nudge HIS wife to force him to do the same.


As is often the case, I simply cannot add to this.

It's perfect behavior for this situation.


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She won't come crawling back, it's not in her nature... I'm still a recovering Nice Guy and I can hear in my lizard brain "if she comes crawling back, we can get this thing back on track!". I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I need to very distant for quite a while...


MNG,

With all due respect, you don't really know.

This is the first time she's had to respond to "you" - as the man you were born to be.

Keep an indifferent exterior - and an open mind.


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## greenpearl

You can let her know, 

If you let go of everything, I am still here for you. We can start all over again! 

If you want to leave, I have done my best to save our marriage, if that's your decision, hope you find your happiness somewhere. 

For your kids, you have to be a strong father!


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## MEM2020

GP,
You are trying to help - and yet this is the WORST THING he can say. She is NOT ONLY trying to cheat on him she is BLAMING HIM. Until she shows sincere remorse he cannot show kindness as it greatly increases the chances of divorce. Sad but true. 




greenpearl said:


> You can let her know,
> 
> If you let go of everything, I am still here for you. We can start all over again!
> 
> If you want to leave, I have done my best to save our marriage, if that's your decision, hope you find your happiness somewhere.
> 
> For your kids, you have to be a strong father!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Ok, got it... She just came home and I finished prepping the kids dinner and went to my office and now I'm just sitting here typing away... gonna hide down here until the kids probably force me to come out. I can tell you all it takes for me to get pissed off again is to think about not being able to visit my in-laws without the whole family or visiting my family without her... just heartbreaking...



MEM11363 said:


> All good advice. If you drink ANYTHING - do not speak to her afterwards. I don't care what she does or says. Be silent. Alcohol plus fatigue plus infidelity is a super volatile mix.
> 
> You can listen to her - or even better shake your head and say "not tonight" and go in another room and close the door behind you.
> 
> Do NOT comfort her if she cries. Just be indifferent. You have a shot here - if you are firm and cold she may fold like a cheap card table and come back and offer unconditional surrender. THAT needs to include a firm NC letter and phone call to the OM. And you might nudge HIS wife to force him to do the same.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Ok, got it... She just came home and I finished prepping the kids dinner and went to my office and now I'm just sitting here typing away... gonna hide down here until the kids probably force me to come out. I can tell you all it takes for me to get pissed off again is to think about not being able to visit my in-laws without the whole family or visiting my family without her... just heartbreaking...


Brother,

Ask those parts of you to step aside.

The feelings therein are very legit and there will be PLENTY of time to deal with them.

Cool anger is more than fine - bordering on indifference. Try your best not to think about what you are losing, as she has lost her self-respect.

If you can do this, you may not lose ANYTHING. In fact, you may gain your dream relationship.

If you blow up and get emotional? She will take that as validation that she needed to find a real man.

Show her the real man she overlooked.


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## greenpearl

When we get together, it is the beginning of our departure. 

All relationships depart in the end, just in different ways, some by breaking up, some by divorce, some by death, some by other reasons......................

While we are together, do our best to show our appreciation and love, cherish every moment we have. 

When they are gone, they are gone, it is the end of a relationship, and start of another relationship!


----------



## Powerbane

and careful she doesn't quietly flee with the kids right now.

Breathe in breathe out. Conrad and others here are giving you excellent advice.


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## MisterNiceGuy

She's not going anywhere with them. She has no money and no place to go. Plus, she was fairly calm and collected when I talked to her a couple of hours ago. Now she won't look at me or talk to me. She hasn't changed her password on her email, or her computer yet. I see she got about four texts from the OM an hour or so after I told his wife. I sure hope this puts a stop to it...

Just got a call from his wife. I don't think the OM has spilled the beans yet and she hasn't approached him. The OM and my wife have talked... so that's all that really counts for now. She said she saw the emails in her inbox, but they somehow disappeared! I told her to change all her passwords right now and I would resend! Jeez...


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## IanIronwood

Sounds like he got to them first. Try re-sending from multiple accounts, in case he's blocked your specific account.


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## 827Aug

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She said she saw the emails in her inbox, but they somehow disappeared!


Imagine that! I wonder how that could happen. lol Oh, these cheaters are sneaky.......

Hang in there; you are on the right path. Hope you can see an attorney soon.


----------



## the guy

WAIT, "The OM and my wife have talked...so thats all that counts for now" 

I thought the point is they dont talk;-) I get what you mean, I hope some good while come from this and a NC is established.

I think she's going to have some serious withdrawls, so you have your work cut out.


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She's not going anywhere with them. She has no money and no place to go. Plus, she was fairly calm and collected when I talked to her a couple of hours ago. Now she won't look at me or talk to me. She hasn't changed her password on her email, or her computer yet. I see she got about four texts from the OM an hour or so after I told his wife. I sure hope this puts a stop to it...
> 
> Just got a call from his wife. I don't think the OM has spilled the beans yet and she hasn't approached him. The OM and my wife have talked... so that's all that really counts for now. She said she saw the emails in her inbox, but they somehow disappeared! I told her to change all her passwords right now and I would resend! Jeez...


If you can take that step back for a minute.

Just imagine how desperate someone is to think they can actually delete those emails as if that will matter/help them save face.

As bad as you've felt over the past few months, the OM right now is a rung above Hitler in Dante's Inferno.

Thought he had the world by the ass.

Surprise, the scaffold he built was for HIM.


----------



## Powerbane

Print them out and hand deliver.Get her to set up a new gmail account - send them again - saturate everywhere.


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## IanIronwood

Yeah, HE's the one who should be soiling himself. His wife got a call saying that he is emotionally cheating. BEST CASE SCENARIO: a year's worth of marriage counseling and a big dose of Noasatal. I don't envy him . . . but that's the least of what you get when you try to rub another man's rhubarb.


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## Affaircare

WHOA! There is so much going on here, it's kind of  

After taking more than a minute to review this whole thread and all that's going on, may I put in my two cents worth? I speak as a person who works with couples trying to save their marriage from an affair, as a female-type person, and as someone who was formerly disloyal so I have a lot to add I think. 

I think the very first thing I'd recommend is to take a deep breath and give yourself a minute to calm down. So far your choices have been really wise and well-done, but one of the biggest opponents of wisdom is getting so caught up in things that you respond emotionally--like a REaction--rather than thinking about what you're doing and why...being deliberate and working your plan. So #1--just breathe a little. It's been a rough day and you've done REALLY well!

The very second thing I'd recommend is looking at our article "Seven Steps to Ending an Affair." I recommend that you look at this article, not because it's necessarily all that great (although as the author--I'm pretty proud) but rather because it is a PLAN, and it will get you thinking. One of the very first things you're going to have to decide, maybe tomorrow or after you've gotten some rest anyway, is whether or not you want to save your marriage. I won't be shy--I hope you do want to give it a try and do your best to save it; however, just bear in mind that unfaithfulness is the one moral, ethical reason that's allowed in almost every religion and legal code I know of...so if you give it consideration and decide that you just can not do it, I think that's your right and I'd just go ahead and end it now. 

On the other hand, if you give it consideration...and knowing that it will most likely be a pretty long, painful battle but that the growth you will both do (if you both choose to do it) will most likely take your marriage to a whole 'nuther level...and knowing that it will not be "like it was before" but it will be different but has the potential to be MUCH BETTER...then I would say create a plan of how you are going to address this, and then stick with that plan! Over and over again, you'll hear people saying to you "stay the course" and that's what they mean. Choose your responses based on deliberate, thoughtful decisions that are the most likely choices to save your marriage. Learn as much as you can about infidelity, how it happens and why, some different approaches, and then pick the one that resonates with YOU and stick to that plan in a calculated, conscious, purposeful way. 

Okay--much more to say but for now...I concur with Mem and Conrad. Do not drink and speak to her. That is just TOO volatile and is kind of like pouring gas on a fire and then wondering why it flamed out of control. For tonight, I suggest deciding for yourself if YOU want to make the commitment to try to save your marriage. That is a big question, and should be entered into as deliberately as taking the vow in the first place. Otherwise...I'll write more as the night goes on.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

My only concern is that this turns toxic with her parents and brother and they try to "rescue" her from me and take the kids away... I am keeping my fingers crossed that this stays calm...


----------



## Affaircare

MisterNiceGuy said:


> My only concern is that this turns toxic with her parents and brother and they try to "rescue" her from me and take the kids away... I am keeping my fingers crossed that this stays calm...


MrNG~

If you've had a chance to peek around at the article I linked for you ("Seven Steps to Ending an Affair") you'll notice that this kind of thing is discussed/considered--but for clarity's sake let's go over this in order, shall we?

*Step 1--Gather Evidence*, I believe you've already done this. As you might imagine, often a disloyal spouse (DS) will hide their affair from their loyal spouse (LS) and yet the loyal has that nagging "gut feeling" that something's wrong. The disloyal will say stuff like "We are just friends!" or "You're making a mountain out of a molehill" or "You're nuts--you must have trust issues" in order to sort of throw you off the scent. In real life the LS is pretty sure they can't trust their disloyal, but even worse they second-guess THEMSELVES and think they can't trust their instincts. So the first thing I recommend to people is to take the time to gather enough evidence that they are convinced that they can trust their own gut feeling--that they are NOT nuts and it really is a problem. Based on the fact that you have explicit emails, I'd say you have no problem with this part--wouldn't you? 

*Step 2--Confront*, does not mean "be all confrontational with your DS" but more accurately, "speak to your disloyal spouse, one-on-one, in private and let them know in no uncertain terms that you know about their adultery, you will not tolerate a partner who is unfaithful, and ask them right out loud to do the right thing and end the affair right now." The idea of this step is to inform your DS that you know they've been unfaithful, to give them the chance to do the right thing, and to give them the maximum opportunity to keep it private...showing some consideration for them (which is at a time when they are showing little or no consideration for you!). USUALLY the response that most disloyals is to deny-deny-deny even in the face of undeniable evidence. I even know one guy who's wife was a R.E. Agent and she met OM at an empty house 1/2 before a showing ... and he literally caught them "in the act"...and as she put her clothes back on she was saying, "It's not what it looks like..." Oh really?  

Again, I think you've done this step already don't you? You told your wife you knew about her affair and even showed her some emails as "proof." Initially she "agreed" to end it and then they still had contact...had lunch...trickled but talked and didn't really end it at all. Here's the way an affair ends when they really mean it: Yes there are tears--after all on her end she's losing someone who was valuable to her. BUT she writes a No Contact letter that is not a love letter but says "What I did to my husband and family was selfish and very harmful, and the cost of my choices is that I will no long be in contact with you ever..at all." YOU mail it or send it, not her. She blocks him from email, FB, cellphone and lets you see them to verify she's not in contact. She openly shares with you her whereabouts and is where she says she'll be. She goes to the counselor and accepts personal responsibility for the affair she chose--and doesn't blame you. These are the signs of TRUE end of contact. What she did was "say what you wanted to hear" so she could continue to get what she wants. 

*Step 3--Disclose*, is probably about where you're at right now...maybe between this one and step 4--Exposure. There's a very deliberate reason for these two steps, and let me take a moment and explain what they're for and why. You would only go to step 3 if you confronted your disloyal and she did not end the affair. If she DID end it...even if she cried and is being kinda fussy...you don't go to step 3! But if she didn't and you catch her again (and you have, Mr.NG) then you pick ONE close mentor or parent or pastor or someone who is going to have the MOST EFFECT to end the affair. I sometimes recommend a parent or mentor because those are folks she'll look up to and might listen to who now know what she's done! The wallop of hearing your pastor say to you, "DS, I care about you and your husband cares about you, and we both realize that this didn't happen in a vaccuum; that some things occurred that hurt you a lot and maybe caused resentment to build...but DS you have GOT to know that turning to OM outside the marriage is wrong! If you and hubby have problems, work on those or end the marriage--do NOT turn to someone else! You are going to hurt all of your families; you hurting your children even now; and adultery does not fix problems...it just makes many more! Please I care about you--let me help you end this." 

Well for you, I think one of the most effective people you could have disclosed to is the OM'sW!! You better believe that nothing lowers the boom more than an angry W putting her foot down! She can put the kabosh on AND QUICK...so that was good thinking. Now, it is very common for people to want to pretend that "everything's okay" and avoid the evidence right in front of their face. It's also fairly common for OM to spin a web of lies either blaming you or your W for what he did, and his W *may* prefer to believe his lies than to believe that he is a cheater. (After all, having your spouse cheat on you is the most painful thing ever!!) So if that's how she reacts--or if your W meets with OM's W and says "Oh my husband (you) are controlling and abusive..." throwing those words out there as the buzzwords that spark the emotional knee-jerk response that then she's justified! So until the OM's W has seen the email evidence, don't be surprised if a) OMs W doesn't want to believe it (or starts to believe the lies OM and your W weave), b) OM lies about his involvement with your W and maybe throws her under the bus and/or c) your W begins to spin lies about you and your character in an effort to justify her behavior. 

*Step 4--Exposure* is the next step and it's really controversial. Lots of people who are disloyal will say that if you expose the affair, you're dragging her name through the mud and ruining any chance of reconciliation. Still others think it will destroy any love she has left for you. I personally disagree. I think that affairs *count on* the fact that the LS will be embarrassed or "doormat" enough to keep it a secret. However, the fact--the PURE FACT--is that all you are doing is telling the truth! If their name is being dragged through the mud, it's because of their own actions and choices--not because you told the truth! 

One thing that is very, VERY important about Exposure though is that this is not "tell everyone out of spite" or is it done in a spirit of revenge. I can not stress that enough. If you are doing it to hurt her like she's hurt you--do NOT expose (at least, not now). You expose the affair to a limited, select group of people, and you do it solely for the purpose of bringing the truth to the light of day. No more hiding! You expose to her parents and your parents, her siblings and yours, her best friends and yours, your pastor, and her employer and yours. You expose to the people who are likely to be affected if there is a divorce. You tell family because they are on the brink of losing half the time with their grandkids and nieces/nephews and they need to be there to support you and encourage her to do the right thing--shoot even to let her know that if she ended the affair, they'd be proud of her and welcome her back! You tell BFs because let's face it...when someone is a lifelong friend sometimes their words can be effective. You tell her employer because usually/often the two "lovers" met at work and the boss needs to know that company resources and time are being used for unwanted sexual contact--so the boss can put an end to using the company cellphone for sexting. You tell your employer because if there is an affair and divorce, you'll likely lose some productivity and you'll want him to know why..and you'll likely need some time off for court, etc. 

Again, exposure is very limited, targeted, and purposeful. You don't announce it on Facebook just to embarrass her. You don't send one of the OM's smarmy emails to everyone in her email address book. NO! The focused reasoning is so that your DS can't hide the affair, blame you, and justify why she's cheating with "Well I've been unhappy for YEARS!" Now it is EXTREMELY typical...I mean EXTREMELY...for the disloyal to say after exposure "That's IT! We are completely over now! How could you break my trust like that?" Now I personally have always found that just a bit humorous myself--are they KIDDING?  You broke their trust by telling the truth? But they are justified in lying about where they are, who they're with, and having sex with another person... ORLY? But I'm not kidding...about 100% of the disloyals follow this script. Thus, when your wife says this, I pretty much want you to say: "Well, she is nothing if not consistent to the disloyal script" and giggle to yourself. Trust me, this marriage is far from over. 

At this point, I want you to envision a ship caught in a horrible storm at sea. It is tossed and turned so that the ship can not tell which direction is UP much less which direction is shore...and safety. That ship at see is your wife. She's out there flailing around, trying to convince herself she's not drowning. And you? YOU are the lighthouse, standing safely on shore shining the light that leads back to HOME and safety. Right now you are a soldier standing in the gap for your family--you, your wife, and your kids. Your home is the marital home. Your children belong in their beds, in their home, with faithful parents. You can not control your wife, but she needs to learn that her choice to continue to be unfaithful does not mean that she gets the house, the kids, and your paycheck...and just slip the OM into your spot! It means SHE is no longer in her comfy, cozy home. It means that the kids stay and SHE leaves. It means that you and the kids will be there, in the marital home, any time that she decides to return... but that in the marital home, there is an invisible fence around it and adultery is NOT ALLOWED in that home! She can be faithful, with her husband and kids and home...or she is absolutely free to continue to be unfaithful WITHOUT any other adult person to help her, WITHOUT her children every night, and WITHOUT her cushy home and lifestyle. It is 100% up to her, but here's the truth: adultery COSTS. 

You can not control how her parents and siblings may react. Sadly, this day and age, I've seen many parents "support" the child committing adultery...and I've seen siblings who won't get involved. But you can keep them for "rescuing" her and the kids by making sure that the kids stay home... period. If she wants to go, she's free to go and you'll help her pack! 

Finally--regarding the idea that "she can't afford to move anywhere else" but wanting weeks to continue her affair while she looks for a job, here is my thought. Give her every reasonable opportunity to end the affair, cut off all contact with the OM (and probably OMs W) and be transparent with you. But if she hardens her heart and refuses to end the affair, pack her luggage, call her parents and say "Please come and get <wife>. She will not end her affair and adultery is not tolerated here in our marital home. I will have her ready by the time you get here." And when she tries to say that you threw her out on the street...just remind her that at any time all she had to do to stay at home is to end her affair. She would not tolerate YOU bringing your girlfriend home and giving you a month to get enough money together to leave HER...and neither should you tolerate that kind of treatment from her. It's just, ridiculous.


----------



## Conrad

Damn - that's suitable for framing.

I'm going to do something unusual and stop talking now.

You take it from here.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I find it all very relieving that she is following the script you describe above to a T. She has been rationalizing the affair because our relationship was never on sound ground from the day we got married. WTF? We had a great courtship and early marriage, but after about year three into it little by little things chipped away. Then in year 8 we had some kids and that probably kept us together. Having children and a house together sure makes you want to keep it all together. 

I doubt she will continue the affair at this point. From their emails they were really on the fence about ramping it up, so I think I just took the wind out of their sails. There is too much at stake for her socially to continue. She even said to my face that she could never have an affair and hurt the OMW and kids like that at the same time planning dates with the OM! If she softens up at all in the next few days, I will draw up a No Contact letter and go from there. If she doesn't, she's out of here. Right now she can't even look at me or talk to me. She in bed with the kids in our bed, but whatever it takes to get through the next few days. The good thing is the OM is on vacation for almost another week, so no way she will see him.

I can tell you that she would've kicked me to the curb if she found out I had an affair. It's almost laughable that both her and the OM both said to me today that "if I had only come to them first". How is it appropriate that they get to plan dates and do all this fun stuff (I found out from emails) together just to be "friends". I'm sorry, but you don't get to hang out like that with some other married person of the opposite sex! Not acceptable! But they both rationalized it because they "had so much in common". I wish my wife would just back up a minute and have a fresh look at me and see how much we really have in common and if she would give me a chance we could really connect in ways that we haven't in many years. I'm still on a high simmer tonight that is likely to last for many days...


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I find it all very relieving that she is following the script you describe above to a T. She has been rationalizing the affair because our relationship was never on sound ground from the day we got married. WTF? We had a great courtship and early marriage, but after about year three into it little by little things chipped away. Then in year 8 we had some kids and that probably kept us together. Having children and a house together sure makes you want to keep it all together.
> 
> I can tell you that she would've kicked me to the curb if she found out I had an affair. It's almost laughable that both her and the OM both said to me today that "if I had only come to them first". How is it appropriate that they get to plan dates and do all this fun stuff (I found out from emails) together just to be "friends". I'm sorry, but you don't get to hang out like that with some other married person of the opposite sex! Not acceptable! But they both rationalized it because they "had so much in common". I wish my wife would just back up a minute and have a fresh look at me and see how much we really have in common and if she would give me a chance we could really connect in ways that we haven't in many years. I'm still on a high simmer tonight that is likely to last for many days...


Ok - I lied

STOP WITH THAT STUFF

She is the luckiest woman on earth to have a man like you. It is your wife who needs that chance.

The "fresh look" you speak about is coming. Big time.

Stay the course.


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## Affaircare

Oh I forgot one really important thing. I get it, that I'm a female-type person and thus may, on the occasion, speak in a language utterly foreign to you. That's cool--now and then maybe I can help translate female to male for ya! 

But if you have to pick two wise fellas to listen to, who make sense and have it straight, listen to MEM and Conrad. Okay at times they do a little TEENY bit of that King Kong chest-pound thing, but you know what? A little "Me Tarzan You Jane" is why Tarzan *GOT* Jane! Overall, it may feel counter-intuitive...it may even feel tough or hard on her, but I could not be more serious when I say that listening to them absolutely WILL give you the mostly likely chance of saving your marriage. Both are fellas I would support, encourage, recommend and trust implicitly. Now, if my Dear Hubby was here...I'd add him to the list too! (Then again, I just may be a little biased on that one...)


----------



## AFEH

greenpearl said:


> When we get together, it is the beginning of our departure.
> 
> All relationships depart in the end, just in different ways, some by breaking up, some by divorce, some by death, some by other reasons......................
> 
> While we are together, do our best to show our appreciation and love, cherish every moment we have.
> 
> When they are gone, they are gone, it is the end of a relationship, and start of another relationship!


Hi GP, I think you are way off base here, probably because you are talking from personal experience. Some marriages do survive infidelity and they do become stronger and better than they were before the affair.

If MNG continues to follow the advice of Conrad, Deejo, MEM and others here he’s an excellent chance of recovery.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

It's the middle of the night... she changed all her passwords while I was asleep. I hope the key logging software kicks in on her laptop. I need to reboot it but that might make her really suspicious... I see they were texting their brains out last night while she was laying in bed with my kids trying to get them to sleep... yuck... He must've told her to change her password on her email! This is going to be harder than I thought. They are not going to break off communication!

How am I going to get her attention that she needs to break off contact? I'm not sure the OMW has really sat down and talked to the OM yet. Also, her best friend was in on it and is supporting her now. Should I call her friend and tell her to back off? It was a dramatic difference in my wife's attitude from the time she found out. She was calm and even talked to me without resentment. Then after talking to her friend for a couple of hours she can't even look at me/talk to me, changing passwords, etc. She has a bigger support network than I do and they might all turn against me...


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## AFEH

MNG, in some ways you need to “detach from your ideals”.

As men we all have ideals about what our wife should be and what she shouldn’t be. Plus we have ideals about what sort of mother she should be and what she shouldn’t be.

You need to detach from your ideals and let go of them. In that way you will begin to see, over time, the type of woman your wife really is and then face and accept the truth of it.

A little outline for you. Your wife has two friends, one of them is the OMW. Your wife has schemed and colluded with her other friend to steal OM from OMW.

Hardly the ideal wife, is she. In fact she’s very far from being an ideal wife, for any husband.

Bob


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> It's the middle of the night... she changed all her passwords while I was asleep. I hope the key logging software kicks in on her laptop. I need to reboot it but that might make her really suspicious... I see they were texting their brains out last night while she was laying in bed with my kids trying to get them to sleep... yuck... He must've told her to change her password on her email! This is going to be harder than I thought. They are not going to break off communication!
> 
> How am I going to get her attention that she needs to break off contact? I'm not sure the OMW has really sat down and talked to the OM yet. Also, her best friend was in on it and is supporting her now. Should I call her friend and tell her to back off? It was a dramatic difference in my wife's attitude from the time she found out. She was calm and even talked to me without resentment. Then after talking to her friend for a couple of hours she can't even look at me/talk to me, changing passwords, etc. She has a bigger support network than I do and they might all turn against me...


MNG,

Were you expecting her to suddenly shape up?

When a child gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, what does the child do?

Always remember, the parts of your wife you are dealing with here are immature and were created at a very young age. This is entitlement, selfishness, and envy/avarice.

Somehow, she's emotionally hijacked herself into a place where she is convincing herself that this behavior is "ok" and that those who are standing in the way are the "problem".

All you did today was raise the stakes of the game. You are not a doormat and won't play win/lose with her. It's either win/win or it's no deal.

Be patient. She has yet to see even the first consequences of the path she's choosing. When that dawn hits, it will be a time of reflection. But, we each hit the precipice at our own pace, our own speed, and when we're ready to see something. It's impossible to predict that exact moment for another.

Take it from me. I've tried that many times.

And - don't let her drama queen friend bother you in the least. When she's done screwing up your wife's life, it will be on to the next project with nary an introspective thought.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I guess not... I think the full force of the OMW has yet to come in to effect. I'm sure I'll be hearing from her today. She sent me an email last night that she got all the emails that I sent her and was digesting it. But when I contacted the OM yesterday and told him to stay away, it obviously didn't mean anything to him. 

Good thing I checked this... I was right in the middle of a big email to my wife's friend. I'm not sure to what degree she knew what my wife was up to. Only thing is that my wife's friend knew at some point what was going on. I don't know if she was an enabler or not, but she didn't appear to try and stop it. I simply don't know. She is a good friend of mine too and I would hate to lose that friendship too... I was trying to reach out to her to tell her to tell my wife to stop talking to the OM, but I suppose that will come with time. It's really late/early and I need some sleep...


----------



## F-102

MNG, get her to agree to a legal separation in writing!
Then, she can't say you "kicked her out", because she legally agreed to leave.
Don't let her know that you are drinking!
Then she can't pull the "alcoholic" card when she wants full custody.
Get yourself a good lawyer, no matter what the cost.
If she gets a good (i.e., scumbag) lawyer, they can use all of this against you.
Get a court order that she does not take the kids out of state.
Pack up all her stuff in a u-haul, then leave u-haul in friend's, or even the OM's driveway.


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> Hi GP, I think you are way off base here, probably because you are talking from personal experience. Some marriages do survive infidelity and they do become stronger and better than they were before the affair.
> 
> If MNG continues to follow the advice of Conrad, Deejo, MEM and others here he’s an excellent chance of recovery.
> 
> Bob


Bob, are you confident about this? 

I don't see his wife working with him together. She doesn't even feel bad for what she is doing, right now she is working together with this OM. What MNG did pushed them even closer. 

Right now she sees MNG as their enemy. 

Believe me, she will use all she can to make MNG a bad man!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

OK, I got a couple more hours of sleep and feel much better. 

I honestly don't think she'll drag me into court that way. I just don't think she has it in her...

A couple of things, just before the bomb went off she was actually reading my email and responded to an email, from my account to my aunt and mother. Then she tells me how could I snoop in her email account!

She left her journal out and wouldn't normally do this, but I wanted to see where her head is at... it is absolutely not with me at all! She wrote three pages about the OM and how is she ever going to get him back, he touched her soul in ways that I never did. She wants to be with him. She feels her only chance for happiness in life was with him. She really wants him back in her life but doesn't know how that is going to happen. Blah, blah, blah... So she really was deep into it with him, although I'm not sure he is going to give up his cushy life to be with my wife (soon to be ex?). I hope the FOG clears soon and she can see clearly what is going on. For the sake of our kids. I really don't want this to turn ugly...


----------



## greenpearl

MNG,

I don't want to make your situation worse. 

But I remember that US has this stupid law about privacy. 

Did you have her permission to read her emails? If you didn't, then she can threaten you. Or if she really hates you, she can sue you! 
She can gang up with that man together and make your life even worse. I hope I am not that paranoid, and she is not that vindictive.


----------



## Deejo

None of the advice you are receiving here is bad. However, much like your current circumstances ... there is a lot going on, and it's overwhelming.

People that have already had the displeasure of going through these exact same circumstances feel compelled to advise, inform and protect you.

We would all love nothing more than to see you happy and have your marriage recover.

Here is the harsh reality: There is zero chance of that occurring anytime in the near future.

The up-side is ... there is no timeframe. Time is immaterial. Your threshold for tolerance is the benchmark.

I have always echoed; you need to be prepared to sacrifice your marriage in order to save it.

Here is what you need to digest for the moment.

Your wife has absolutely no interest in saving your marriage right now. NONE. She has no interest in, nor respect for you.

Quite the contrary, she is actively engaged in being consistently disrespectful. She will demonize you, and prattle on about how she never loved you in the first place.

You can choose to let this crap erode your self-esteem, or you can look at for what it is ... bullsh!t.

For all the recommendations you are given here, read them, weigh them ... but only implement those that you know you are capable of.

You do still need to be the rock ... for you. For your kids. More than likely that she will try to pull them into the hate-fest as well.

Accept that you may need to move vigorously to actually give her what she claims she wants. If she keeps screaming it's over, then you really, really, need to go see an attorney. Be proactive. 

The more real and obviously painful, that her life becomes as she pursues her 'dream' of dumping you, this is what will give her pause. And the only way she gets there is if you meet her instability with steadfast, cold, calculated certainty.

Doesn't mean you can't feel crushed, sad, and hopeless ... but you cannot feel or display those emotions when you are dealing with her, or your children.

You have done the right things in an effort to save your marriage. Ultimately, if she doesn't want the same things you do ... then the marriage was never worth saving in the first place. Coming to that realization follows a different timeline for everyone.

Hang in there.


----------



## IanIronwood

greenpearl said:


> MNG,
> 
> I don't want to make your situation worse.
> 
> But I remember that US has this stupid law about privacy.
> 
> Did you have her permission to read her emails? If you didn't, then she can threaten you. Or if she really hates you, she can sue you!
> She can gang up with that man together and make your life even worse. I hope I am not that paranoid, and she is not that vindictive.


It's not illegal to read your wife's stuff, just (usually) rude.

But you should make a copy of that journal. If the emails you sent the OMW didn't convince her, maybe the journal would convince her that your wife, at least, has it bad for her husband. Besides, it might be useful in court.

If you lived in an enlightened Southern state, that would be useful in an alienation of affection lawsuit.


----------



## bluesky

Will you ever be able to recover from your wife saying that this OM touched her soul more than you ever could?

I think you are in shock....once that wears off....ANGER will surface.

Initiate a divorce at once.

Its your best chance of saving yourself and your esteem.

It's ALSO the best way of knocking her off the fence, should you decide to reconcile.


----------



## greenpearl

When I found out that my ex was having an affair, I didn't say anything, I didn't even tell him that I knew what was going on, I just knew that it was time for me to make up my decision and leave everything behind. People think they are smart and they can cover up everything, actually they can't. Paper can't wrap fire. 

I didn't make our divorce ugly either, all for my son's sake. A husband and wife can become distant and strangers, but they will always be the children's parents. If they end well, they are still friends, they won't bring too much insecurity to their children, but if they keep on fighting, and go to court, it is only adding stress to the children, parents' divorce is already bad, ugly ending can make it even worse, it is not good for kids.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I know many of you have been through a lot of stuff out there and have seen a lot of divorce and break ups. My gut tells me that she is not going to turn vindictive. The FOG will wear off and she will come to her senses, maybe not continue the marriage, but at least not drag in through the mud. I'm glad I pulled the trigger because she was prepared to do some serious "cake eating" while she figured out if the OM was good for her! Either way, it's over and we can all move on. Reading her journal just showed me that in her current state had no serious intention of working things out with me. Sure they can gang up on me, but I have a couple of lawyer friends that could really put the hurt to her if I wanted, but I'm not going there.

I looked up the paperwork in our state for a legal separation. Depending on things go in the next couple of days, I'm going to fill them out and give them to her.

I think her family is prepared to give her as much money as she needs to live on her own. I guess I'm fine with that. I was hoping she would stay in this house until the fog cleared. I might not have a choice though. My kids will be heartbroken. I am heartbroken...


----------



## Deejo

Keep perspective.

She's angry at you for exposing the fact that she was betraying you.
The journal indicates the depth to which she was willing to go to deceive you and perpetrate that betrayal. 

It's ugly.

Would advise that you continue to see the therapist. It doesn't get easier ... what happens is that you get stronger.


----------



## greenpearl

MNG,

I feel the pain for you! 

I don't want to relive my pain. But it was pain. And it was for a long time. I didn't recover until I found my new happiness. 

I didn't get to have my son since I was in no position to fight for my son's custody, at that time I didn't have Taiwanese citizenship. I would wake up crying from my dream, heartbroken. 

But time heals everything. After some time(one year, or even longer)it will be all gone, and you will find hope again, it all depends on you!!!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I actually have a therapy session today at noon... Obviously I will tell him everything. He's really good and will help me through this. Then tomorrow, my wife is seeing him. I hope he knocks some sense into her brain! I don't think we'll do joint session again for a very long time if at all... Wife has gone to the gym and will be back in a half hour. I'm sure I'll update later today with everything...


----------



## AFEH

greenpearl said:


> Bob, are you confident about this?
> 
> I don't see his wife working with him together. She doesn't even feel bad for what she is doing, right now she is working together with this OM. What MNG did pushed them even closer.
> 
> Right now she sees MNG as their enemy.
> 
> Believe me, she will use all she can to make MNG a bad man!


GP it’s not a case of being confident about anything. More about which way it will all go in a month, six months or a years time. Rome wasn’t built in a day and neither was it destroyed in a day.

Bob


----------



## Grayson

IanIronwood said:


> It's not illegal to read your wife's stuff, just (usually) rude.


That's getting to be a muddier situation these days. I'm sure most of us saw the news stories in the past few months about the husband facing criminal charges for accessing his DW's email. The outcome of that case will certainly impact folks like us in the situations we've faced. Analysis of those stories seemed to reach a concensus that, (using the story in question as an example) if the computer was purchased with the H's money or with joint funds, he has a right to access any information on that computer. The remaining question marks, though, are: How does that apply in community property states; since all funds are "joint funds," do both spouses have access? In the case of web-based email (Yahoo, gmail, etc), can the information truly be said to be "on that computer?"

The case in question also has a he said/she said component to it. The H claims that the W had her passwords written in a notebook by the computer; the W claims no such notebook exists. This raises the question of - assuming, for a moment, the notebook exists - if the H, being a member of the household, has access to the notebook and the computer, what expectation of email privacy exists? If the notebook doesn't exist, and he obtained the password(s) through other means, we cycle back to the earlier questions about who does and doesn't have a legal right to determine that information?

I don't know about anyone else, bit I'm interested in seeing how this one turns out. Might have to look later and se if any updates have been reported.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

By all means, GO THERE with your lawyer friends.
Better to have and not need than need and not have.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

We've always been open about each other's email account. She is always reading my emails, right up until I dropped the bomb yesterday. About 20 minutes before I dropped the bomb she was texting me in a very friendly manner... I just don't get it... 

The fact that we've always been open about emails and the fact that she has been reading and answering emails from my account for years tells me she has no leg to stand on with this issue.

I made copies of a few pages of her journal. The ones where she professes her deep affection of the OM. I have them stored away safely in case I need to use them. I have been a devoted, if distant husband. I was a Mr. Nice Guy smothering her though, I know that know but that is not the basis for anything in a divorce court. Right away she told me we need to break up the business and house right away so she could get some cash to move out, but then quickly backpedaled to say that we will just sleep in separate beds and maintain a pleasant atmosphere around the kids..


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> We've always been open about each other's email account. She is always reading my emails, right up until I dropped the bomb yesterday. About 20 minutes before I dropped the bomb she was texting me in a very friendly manner... I just don't get it...
> 
> The fact that we've always been open about emails and the fact that she has been reading and answering emails from my account for years tells me she has no leg to stand on with this issue.
> 
> I made copies of a few pages of her journal. The ones where she professes her deep affection of the OM. I have them stored away safely in case I need to use them. I have been a devoted, if distant husband. I was a Mr. Nice Guy smothering her though, I know that know but that is not the basis for anything in a divorce court. Right away she told me we need to break up the business and house right away so she could get some cash to move out, but then quickly backpedaled to say that we will just sleep in separate beds and maintain a pleasant atmosphere around the kids..


So . . . tell me again, why does SHE get to set the terms?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

She didn't set the terms, we kind of came to a mutual agreement... but that was last night...

I talked to her this morning when she came back from the gym and she is trying to set the terms. She is oddly pleasant and happy. She immediately said she wants to move out. Is taking money out of the business to get an apartment. She is looking at apartments this morning. Doesn't want anyone to know about what is going on and wants to keep the business running and like nothing happened. If I pull another stunt like yesterday she is going to force the breakup of our business. I just looked at her dumbfounded. I said go ahead and move out, I'll buy you some boxes! No talk of divorce or separation, but time by herself.

I know my options here. I can escalate and let the world know about the affair. I need to get the upper hand here without bringing the lawyers. I really don't want to go there. If she really wants to move out, I need to let her go. But, I need to set the tone of how this thing is going, but like I said, there is nothing I can do if she really wants to leave us. She is going to look at apartments about 3 miles away.

The business is my baby. We have an outside investor that is not going to be too pleased with this situation. My wife poured a lot of her income into getting it set up, as did I. She is holding it hostage while she gets her way. I really don't want to call her bluff on this as it's my passion and there is about a $ million invested in this thing and it's just starting to take off. I have no way to pay off her half of the assets if I wanted to keep it running. If she initiates legal action to split up our company it will get very ugly. 

You know sometimes you have to let things go and move on. I am already thinking about meeting other women. I think it would be fun to date again. It's been so long since I've had some good sex, I don't even remember what it's like anymore...

In the meantime, we are still going to work together on it until she finds a job. She said she would always be involved with the business. She can't move out right away since we don't have the money and I'm sure an apartment won't be available for many days. 

Reconciliation at this point seems hopeless. I know, don't say it's over until the papers are signed...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

She just took off to look at apartments... she is determined...


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She just took off to look at apartments... she is determined...


Start packing up her stuff. Leave it by the front door in an ever-increasing pile.


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## MisterNiceGuy

OMW just texted me and is calling me in a couple of hours... She may not see the affair as a problem for their marriage, but it's wrecked mine and she needs to tell her husband to knock it off!


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She didn't set the terms, we kind of came to a mutual agreement... but that was last night...
> 
> I talked to her this morning when she came back from the gym and she is trying to set the terms. She is oddly pleasant and happy. She immediately said she wants to move out. Is taking money out of the business to get an apartment. She is looking at apartments this morning. Doesn't want anyone to know about what is going on and wants to keep the business running and like nothing happened. If I pull another stunt like yesterday she is going to force the breakup of our business. I just looked at her dumbfounded. I said go ahead and move out, I'll buy you some boxes! No talk of divorce or separation, but time by herself.
> 
> I know my options here. I can escalate and let the world know about the affair. I need to get the upper hand here without bringing the lawyers. I really don't want to go there. If she really wants to move out, I need to let her go. But, I need to set the tone of how this thing is going, but like I said, there is nothing I can do if she really wants to leave us. She is going to look at apartments about 3 miles away.
> 
> The business is my baby. We have an outside investor that is not going to be too pleased with this situation. My wife poured a lot of her income into getting it set up, as did I. She is holding it hostage while she gets her way. I really don't want to call her bluff on this as it's my passion and there is about a $ million invested in this thing and it's just starting to take off. I have no way to pay off her half of the assets if I wanted to keep it running. If she initiates legal action to split up our company it will get very ugly.
> 
> You know sometimes you have to let things go and move on. I am already thinking about meeting other women. I think it would be fun to date again. It's been so long since I've had some good sex, I don't even remember what it's like anymore...
> 
> In the meantime, we are still going to work together on it until she finds a job. She said she would always be involved with the business. She can't move out right away since we don't have the money and I'm sure an apartment won't be available for many days.
> 
> Reconciliation at this point seems hopeless. I know, don't say it's over until the papers are signed...


Hold on to that thought about how nice it would be to have sex with a woman/women interested in having sex with you!

You're starting to heal.

Much more productive way to think than "hoping someone will knock some sense into her".

About your business. Find an investor. Get busy.

Make her day.

She thinks she's got the trump card.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Just talked to the OMW. She is going to shut it down today. OM was being more open with his wife than mine. I think this is a little one way on my wife's part. She had built up this fantasy in her head about all this and he was thinking he was helping my wife and kind of dabbling on the side... OMW wife did say that this goes way back to 2009 when she saw my wife groping the OM at a Halloween party so my wife was doing some sh!t like that a long time ago... She is going to tell her husband to stay away for a long time and I'm sure he will. I don't get the sense that he is that emotionally invested in this right now...


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Just talked to the OMW. She is going to shut it down today. OM was being more open with his wife than mine. I think this is a little one way on my wife's part. She had built up this fantasy in her head about all this and he was thinking he was helping my wife and kind of dabbling on the side... OMW wife did say that this goes way back to 2009 when she saw my wife groping the OM at a Halloween party so my wife was doing some sh!t like that a long time ago... She is going to tell her husband to stay away for a long time and I'm sure he will. I don't get the sense that he is that emotionally invested in this right now...


I guess that's one of those good news/bad news sorts of things. Was she generally friendly and well-disposed, or sympathetic with you? And how did counseling go?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Any one out there want to date a 48 year old successful business owner, 6'2", 185, athletic build, green eyes, going bald, widely traveled, serious foodie and cook, wine collector, with two young boys! I know it's too soon, but when/if I hit the market, I'm going to busy!



Conrad said:


> Hold on to that thought about how nice it would be to have sex with a woman/women interested in having sex with you!
> 
> You're starting to heal.
> 
> Much more productive way to think than "hoping someone will knock some sense into her".
> 
> About your business. Find an investor. Get busy.
> 
> Make her day.
> 
> She thinks she's got the trump card.


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Any one out there want to date a 48 year old successful business owner, 6'2", 185, athletic build, green eyes, going bald, widely traveled, serious foodie and cook, wine collector, with two young boys! I know it's too soon, but when/if I hit the market, I'm going to busy!


THAT'S the spirit! Truth is, you're the catch here. I'm sure there are single women in your life that have really regretted that you're married. Your wife, on the other hand, has just joined a fairly large pool of single women in quest of a fairly small pool of eligible men. Somehow I think you'll be dating before she will.


----------



## nice777guy

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Just talked to the OMW. She is going to shut it down today. OM was being more open with his wife than mine. I think this is a little one way on my wife's part. She had built up this fantasy in her head about all this and he was thinking he was helping my wife and kind of dabbling on the side... OMW wife did say that this goes way back to 2009 when she saw my wife groping the OM at a Halloween party so my wife was doing some sh!t like that a long time ago... She is going to tell her husband to stay away for a long time and I'm sure he will. I don't get the sense that he is that emotionally invested in this right now...


Just keep in mind that he's probably being just as "honest" with his wife as your wife is with you.

And don't count on his wife to keep him away.

And I guess this is where I struggle with some of the advice you've been getting - if you are headed for divorce and don't care and looking forward to dating - why should you care if your wife is dating.

I'd be very careful with those journal pages. Don't show them to anyone but an attorney. Those pages can only be used to help you make a decision about how to move forward.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Yes... the OMW was very calm and disposed. I know her pretty well and she is pretty unflappable. We are going to work out a No Contact agreement between them. We have tight nit neighborhood and this is going to set off some ripples I can tell you that... leaving for counseling in 15 minutes.



IanIronwood said:


> I guess that's one of those good news/bad news sorts of things. Was she generally friendly and well-disposed, or sympathetic with you? And how did counseling go?


Just talked to my wife again. She is moving out in one week. She is getting a mover to move her stuff out. There was no talk about a legal separation or divorce, just that she needs her space for a while. I'm fine with that too. She really hurt me and It's very hard to be around her right now.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I'm half joking about the dating thing... I know I can't date anyone until this is resolved. It may be a long time. I'm cool with that, but either I need to reconcile with my wife or start dating. In my mind I will give it about six months...



nice777guy said:


> Just keep in mind that he's probably being just as "honest" with his wife as your wife is with you.
> 
> And don't count on his wife to keep him away.
> 
> And I guess this is where I struggle with some of the advice you've been getting - if you are headed for divorce and don't care and looking forward to dating - why should you care if your wife is dating.
> 
> I'd be very careful with those journal pages. Don't show them to anyone but an attorney. Those pages can only be used to help you make a decision about how to move forward.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I'm half joking about the dating thing... I know I can't date anyone until this is resolved. It may be a long time. I'm cool with that, but either I need to reconcile with my wife or start dating. In my mind I will give it about six months...


Believe it or not, this is actually a great time to bear down in counseling - and not about her.

Go find out where this "nice guy" deal came from.


----------



## F-102

I think she is throwing this all in your face about moving out in order to bring you back to the "nice guy" phase-begging, pleading with her to reconsider. She probably fully expected you to fold in 5 minutes.


----------



## Powerbane

Don't fold!

You're doing fine - even as much as all this crap hurts.

The more you pursue the farther away she will get. 

Get some rest and work with the kids just like that Dad I know you already are. 

BTW - I think the OM is snowing his wife. Lie Lie Lie and twist the truth to make himself look better and not as guilty.

Peace.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> Believe it or not, this is actually a great time to bear down in counseling - and not about her.
> 
> Go find out where this "nice guy" deal came from.


Had a really good session with the therapist. Told him everything that happened. He said that he had told my wife that to chase the relationship with the OM was not the right thing to do, it took me getting pissed off about it to actually make something happen though. He didn't condone my actions. He said that something needed to be done to kill the fantasy of that affair. Therapist also mentioned that while my wife had a lot of issue with me, mainly around trust. I told him about how the No More Mr. Nice Guy book changed my outlook on life and he echoed many of the same themes about why we got to this point. He did mention that my wife had said several times that she was interested in working it out (that was before this weekend). He sees her tomorrow... I don't expect anything to change overnight.

I think my wife will get really bored and lonely in her new apartment by herself. There isn't going to be any furniture or chairs or tables. No TV, just a couch, desk and computer. She said she would have the kids sleep over a couple nights a week "to give me some space" (ha!) on the floor in sleeping bags... good luck with that!

This is all going to be very interesting...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Not pursuing anything right now, just concentrating on my business and kids. She can do whatever she wants... 
well almost...

I don't know if I mentioned this, but when I talked to the OMW this morning she said that the OM had indeed erased all the emails that I had sent. She changed all her passwords to block him... I think they have some issues to work out as well...



Powerbane said:


> Don't fold!
> 
> You're doing fine - even as much as all this crap hurts.
> 
> The more you pursue the farther away she will get.
> 
> Get some rest and work with the kids just like that Dad I know you already are.
> 
> BTW - I think the OM is snowing his wife. Lie Lie Lie and twist the truth to make himself look better and not as guilty.
> 
> Peace.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

I have to give her credit.

She wasn't at all picky about who she chose to bullshix.

And - about your therapist?

You are seeing the same one that you are both seeing?

The guy who "didn't condone her EA" but "didn't think you did the right thing about it?"

I would eagerly search for a better counselor.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I think I mis-typed that last message. The therapist I think was almost thankful I did this to wake up my wife out of her stupor to see what is really going on. But I see she has been texting the OM all day today. No wonder she is so cheerful. She's getting her emotional fix from him today. They must be planning their life together... OMW said she was going to shut it down tonight. We will see. I'm beginning to think that he is in just as deep as my wife in the FOG...





Conrad said:


> MNG,
> 
> I have to give her credit.
> 
> She wasn't at all picky about who she chose to bullshix.
> 
> And - about your therapist?
> 
> You are seeing the same one that you are both seeing?
> 
> The guy who "didn't condone her EA" but "didn't think you did the right thing about it?"
> 
> I would eagerly search for a better counselor.


----------



## Powerbane

Thats what I was saying earlier. He's lying to his wife too. Provided the proof of the texting to her too. Check back a few months for his number to and from. 

I'm betting anything it's gone PA. :-(
Hang tough bro! And hey I just started reading No More Mr Nice Guy too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

I was up in the kitchen cooking dinner and I heard my wife on the phone down in her office. I could hear it coming up the heating ducts so I put my ear to it and I heard some of the conversation. It was with the OM. I only heard a couple of snippets, but what I heard sounded like a break up phone call. She said the two us need some space (albeit she could've been talking about me and her). Just her tone of voice was business like and not a happy person. The only other thing I heard is that "he has promised me that he'll never pull another stunt like that again". I didn't promise, she commanded that I not do that again. I doubt I will ever have to call the OMW again and tell her her lying sack of sh!t husband is having an affair with my wife! Yup, probably not in my lifetime...

This could be a positive step forward, too early to tell. She is with the Therapist tomorrow and he is really pro marriage and I hope he pulls her out of the clouds...

Still giving her cold, indifference all day today. She is pretty perky and talkative... go figure...


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## Powerbane

Hope it keeps trending positive!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Sounds like the emails did the job with his wife.

While it's unsettling to realize your wife was not going to stop, now she will have to decide what to do next.

That's the beginning of a long journey for her.

Stay the course.


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## MEM2020

MNG,
Now the wild north sea storms rage against your ship. The wind and the waves scream in fury and you feel the planks of the hull pulled to the ragged edge of fracture. 

And it is now that your passengers - your children - look to you their captain to steer a firm course forward and to show no fear. And while you may scream in fury and cry in despair while in your cabin, while you stride the decks of your ship you will show nothing but certainty as to the course you set. 

As to your co-captain - only the fear of abandonment will bring her back to you. And so you will freely let her set out into the storm in her little lifeboat - and you will simply shake your head in disbelief that someone could be so foolish. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> I was up in the kitchen cooking dinner and I heard my wife on the phone down in her office. I could hear it coming up the heating ducts so I put my ear to it and I heard some of the conversation. It was with the OM. I only heard a couple of snippets, but what I heard sounded like a break up phone call. She said the two us need some space (albeit she could've been talking about me and her). Just her tone of voice was business like and not a happy person. The only other thing I heard is that "he has promised me that he'll never pull another stunt like that again". I didn't promise, she commanded that I not do that again. I doubt I will ever have to call the OMW again and tell her her lying sack of sh!t husband is having an affair with my wife! Yup, probably not in my lifetime...
> 
> This could be a positive step forward, too early to tell. She is with the Therapist tomorrow and he is really pro marriage and I hope he pulls her out of the clouds...
> 
> Still giving her cold, indifference all day today. She is pretty perky and talkative... go figure...


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## MisterNiceGuy

MEM, jeez you should write books!

I am confused tonight. Wife is friendly, talkative, smiley and all the normal things. The whole family had a great dinner together. It was like none of this sh!t happened. I decided to play along an and be nice and friendly too. My MIL sends me a note and says she knows how hard it all is and she hopes it all works out. My wife's best friend called me and wants to talk about it all. I know it's been only 2 days since I dropped the bomb but I am a little optimistic that things might be breaking my way. I can only hope...


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## Powerbane

Stay vigilant! Take care of yourself and the children. 

Do not be lulled into a false sense of security. Might be over but then again it might be going underground. 

Keep the hope it will give you strength.

and definitely keep your guard up against the slimebucket - you know he is lying through his azz to his wife right now.


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## MisterNiceGuy

The weird sh!t continues... The OM just emailed me and the OMW and he had a big talk. He is backing off and he will stop communicating with my wife immediately. I hope this clears the way for a more rational discussion of the issues between my wife and I, without the distraction of an affair hanging out there. I will sleep better tonight knowing this... Thanks everyone for your support and I will update you with my progress!



Powerbane said:


> Stay vigilant! Take care of yourself and the children.
> 
> Do not be lulled into a false sense of security. Might be over but then again it might be going underground.
> 
> Keep the hope it will give you strength.
> 
> and definitely keep your guard up against the slimebucket - you know he is lying through his azz to his wife right now.


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## IanIronwood

Stay the course! I told your story to my wife, and she thinks you were entirely justified in what you did. Of course, she used courser language than I would . . . 

Don't fall for the friendly routine. She's playing you, trying to soften you to better her bargaining position. But keep your ear on her. Y'know, most smartphones these days have recording applications, and no one notices a phone sitting out innocuously. . . 

Also, have you considered asking your cell company to forward you print-outs of their chats? If you have the same phone account, no reason that they shouldn't.


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> The weird sh!t continues... The OM just emailed me and the OMW and he had a big talk. He is backing off and he will stop communicating with my wife immediately. I hope this clears the way for a more rational discussion of the issues between my wife and I, without the distraction of an affair hanging out there. I will sleep better tonight knowing this... Thanks everyone for your support and I will update you with my progress!


MNG,

I can hear the pain in your voice.

Let me be a bit "straighter" with you.

You seem to be struggling with the idea that "they" need to break it off.

That's already baked in the cake. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of "when".

The "Affair Man" - unless he's completely unusual - won't risk everything for an unfaithful woman.

But, certain things "may happen" in the interim. If they do, you deal with them WHEN they happen. Don't stress out about what "may" happen (as best you can).


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## MEM2020

MNG,
The more power you radiate the faster this whole madness ends. The ultimate show of power is polite, friendly, courteous and completely emotionally detached. Don't SMILE at her or say ILY back or radiate ANY warmth until she comes to you to RESOLVE this. As for conversation - don't MAKE conversation back. You can politely respond to her comments/questions but do not reciprocate. 

Calm, detached. Accept that she is gone. REALLY accept it. And run your business, focus on the kids and let her see as little of you as possible. And you should not show any happiness / gratitude that she has broken off her little affair in the making. That would be like a Wife thanking her husband for not beating her a third day in a row. WTF? 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> The weird sh!t continues... The OM just emailed me and the OMW and he had a big talk. He is backing off and he will stop communicating with my wife immediately. I hope this clears the way for a more rational discussion of the issues between my wife and I, without the distraction of an affair hanging out there. I will sleep better tonight knowing this... Thanks everyone for your support and I will update you with my progress!


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## IanIronwood

Also, just an idea, but if your boys are old enough for Scouts, consider enrolling them if they aren't already. Not only is it a serious, character-building and Dad-oriented experience . . . TONS of single mommies there. 

Just sayin'.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Wife and I had a big talk this morning. She is still going forward with an apartment for six months. Needs to get her head on straight. Still wants to work the business. Since we work out of the house, she will be here all the time but she just wants some space for a while. I could use it too, but not too long. I'm already doing what MEM suggested, cool detachment and not pushing for anything right now. I get the feeling from our talk this morning that the OM is history for her, but I figure that it going to take a while to come down from all this. I doubt she makes it six months in that apartment with her current attitude. She is going to visit her family in a week or so by herself. She has been through a lot in the last couple of months so I respect all she is doing. As Reagan said: "Trust but Verify!" That will be my motto going forward as I don't have trust her a lot right now. I'm going to give her a couple of weeks to start thinking straight then start to push for some things to build some trust up. I can tell already she is moving towards me and working this out from our talk this morning. But not rushing into anything right now and she offered no specifics and I asked for none myself... She has a therapy session to day so that may solidify more stuff in her head. Other little things she is doing like asking permission to do things like take a shower or go to her office to book plane tickets. A couple of weeks ago she would've just done it without asking so I see her softening already. Still pissed off at the whole thing!


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## IanIronwood

Good for you, man. Stand your ground and don't budge. Hold on to that "pissed off" feeling and nurture it. When she starts trying to get you emotionally vulnerable, it might help support you.

The bright side? You know all those annoying household things that she insists on doing her way? You get to do them your way, now. 

And I know it's far too soon, but make sure that you nail down the terms even of your unofficial separation. Are either of you allowed to date during the hiatus? Have sex with other people? Establish that right up front to avoid any misunderstandings later. Any dude can put up with celibacy for six months. But if she's going to be out dating while she "gets her head on straight" you should be afforded the same courtesy. If its a deal breaker for either of you reconciling, establish that fact now as well. 

And after business hours . . . send her ass home.


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## MisterNiceGuy

I hear you on the dating thing. I doubt she will date anyone, but before this gets to far, we need to have some type of agreement.

Over at MarriageBuilders.com in the infidelity section both spouse are supposed to apologize for their actions. I'm wondering how long I give that? A few days? A couple of weeks? She didn't apologize for anything yet...


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## Conrad

I know this is difficult, but please stop.

Just take care of business and do your best to let it go.

The next move is hers.

You aren't able to fix this.

Don't waste any precious mental energy trying.

TAKE CARE OF YOU.

Looking for apologies is weak. Don't be weak.


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## eagleclaw

Personally, I think she needs to realize that with seperation, comes a change to the dynamic of the relationship. She needs to appreciate what she stands to lose, and feel the pressure going the other way to gain perspective. If it was me, I would write up a "loose" seperation agreement not regarding finances and such, but the terms of your relationship due to the seperation. And I would be the one suggesting that during seperation dating IS permissable. At this point she wanted to leave, and she is doing so. 

You need to come off as accepting that and moving on. Give HER something to think about. And if she balks at it, you can point out that she was dating WHILE you were not seperated. So your suggestion of dating while seperated is reasonable. And since you know she was willing to do so during the marriage you fully expect she will do so while seperated as will you. And let her know that if you find someone else in that time than so be it.

This shows her your serious, it shows her your thinking about YOUR future and not a shared future, and it introduces some very real consequences for HER going forward. There is risk of you dating, there is risk of you finding someone and if she cares at all that's going to get her thinking. It very much will rebalance the struggle between you and put the anxiety and the next move in her ball court which is where they belong.


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## MEM2020

Yes yes yes




eagleclaw said:


> personally, i think she needs to realize that with seperation, comes a change to the dynamic of the relationship. She needs to appreciate what she stands to lose, and feel the pressure going the other way to gain perspective. If it was me, i would write up a "loose" seperation agreement not regarding finances and such, but the terms of your relationship due to the seperation. And i would be the one suggesting that during seperation dating is permissable. At this point she wanted to leave, and she is doing so.
> 
> You need to come off as accepting that and moving on. Give her something to think about. And if she balks at it, you can point out that she was dating while you were not seperated. So your suggestion of dating while seperated is reasonable. And since you know she was willing to do so during the marriage you fully expect she will do so while seperated as will you. And let her know that if you find someone else in that time than so be it.
> 
> This shows her your serious, it shows her your thinking about your future and not a shared future, and it introduces some very real consequences for her going forward. There is risk of you dating, there is risk of you finding someone and if she cares at all that's going to get her thinking. It very much will rebalance the struggle between you and put the anxiety and the next move in her ball court which is where they belong.


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## eagleclaw

Also, shortly there after I would make a point of going out a few times and visit friends etc and don't answer your phone etc. Offer no explanation if asked. You don't ower her an explanation.


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## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> Yes yes yes


A thousand times yes!

STAY OFF MARRIAGE BUILDERS


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## eagleclaw

Conrad: Never been to marriage builders, what's the problem with them?


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## Conrad

eagleclaw said:


> Conrad: Never been to marriage builders, what's the problem with them?


It's a fantastic website about relationship building.

It's not time for MNG to be there.

He's put the ball in her court.

Any sort of "fixing" behavior steps on his message.


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## AFEH

Conrad said:


> STAY OFF MARRIAGE BUILDERS


Yep. The process seems designed to produce the archetypal Nice Guy.


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## AFEH

MNG you may find the thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-marriage-relationship-programs/18671-180.html helpful.

Bob


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## IanIronwood

AFEH said:


> Yep. The process seems designed to produce the archetypal Nice Guy.


A site designed with _female_ sexual values in mind, not _male _sexual values. 

I mean, really: what do YOU have to apologize for? Not turning her over your knee when her behavior came to light? You used to be a nice guy and she abused it. No more Nice Guy. That's a privilege to be earned, and she blew it.


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## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> MNG you may find the thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-marriage-relationship-programs/18671-180.html helpful.
> 
> Bob


We have not talk about our future together whatsoever except for the fact that she is partially moving out. She's not going to move out all at once, just slowly over time. She is not taking all her stuff, she just wants to take a sofa bed and a small table and some chairs and kitchen stuff and clothes. She said she would eat many of her meals here with the kids and she would have the kids over to her place a couple nights a week. But she will be in and out of here for business stuff.

I hear you on Marriage Builders, I got that feeling it was a little beta for me. I have read through the 180 degree plan before, but obviously wasn't there yet to implement it. I am doing almost all that stuff now. She was the one that initiated our conversation this morning. She has been initiating all talk these past couple of days. I didn't apologize for anything. She wanted to see the email that I sent her mother and that got her blood pressure up for a minute, but I didn't apologize for sending it. I probably could've written a more tactful letter, but it was in the heat of the moment and she has moved on already.

She is actively seeking a job and has said that if she gets one, all the money goes into our joint checking account and she will cover me with insurance.

The only thing in the 180 degree thing is that we do need to talk about our future a little if I am coming up with a separation agreement. I'm trying to come up with one, but I think it would go something like this:

- Six month period
- No Dating anyone (or the inverse, Dating allowed)
- No seeing/communicating with OM 
- No splitting up property
- You can come and go in the house whenever you want
- You can see/take the kids to your place whenever you want with prior notification
- If you want to move back in the house with me at any time, no problem
- Cannot completely move out until six months.
- You cannot start divorce within six months
- Counseling for both of us. 
- Keep our joint checking accounts
- No major purchases without prior agreement
- Our joint business (our income) as usual
- If you get a job, all money flows into joint personal account
- Violation of these will instigate divorce proceedings

Anything else?


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## AFEH

MNG. I think one of the things with the 180 is “no control”. It’s the concept that we cannot control another person’s behaviour plus we are not responsible for their behaviour. The only behaviour we can control is our own and the only people we are responsible is our self and our children.

With that in mind I would take out anything that looks like control. For example “No seeing/communicating with OM” is a form of trying to control your wife’s behaviour. If she wants to see OM she will see him anyway no matter what she signs up to, so putting it in is rather pointless. Plus that’s not what it’s all about. It’s more about “letting her run” in her new way of life and leaving her to it. Time will tell what decision she will come to, but she will not make a decision until she has experienced her “new life”.

“You cannot start divorce within six months”. “Cannot completely move out until six months” are more control requirements. Look at your wife as a mature adult no matter how she’s behaving. You can tell your wife what to do, but that doesn’t mean she’ll obey you.

“If you want to move back in the house with me at any time, no problem”. Personally I wouldn’t put that in. You may well see things very differently as time goes by and may well not want her back. Plus it gives her one heck of a sense of security with you which she has proven herself unworthy of. Perhaps “If you want to move back in then let’s sit down and discuss it” would be better?

Why not ask your wife to write down her requirements for her separation first? I would not show my hand first under these circumstances.

Just some thoughts, hope it helps.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

Good idea... I'll just bring up the fact that we need some boundaries around this separation, and tell her to please come up with a list of things we can both live with. I'll ask her to do this before she starts moving her stuff out.


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## eagleclaw

Six month period - TIME PERIOD DOESN'T NEED TO BE STATED.
- No Dating anyone (or the inverse, Dating allowed) - YOU SHOULD MAKE IT ALLOWED AS PER MY PREVIOUS MESSAGE - SHE IS WILLING SHE HAS PROVEN THAT. BE STRONG.
- No seeing/communicating with OM - PART OF DATING, THAT'S HER CHOICE WHERE SHE GOES FROM HERE.
- No splitting up property - AT THIS TIME, WOULDN'T EVEN MENTION IT.
- You can come and go in the house whenever you want - NOT A CHANCE - SHE IS SEPERATING FROM YOU. YOU DESERVCE YOUR PRIVACY AND SHE DEFINATELY NOT BE COMING IN AN OUT AT WILL. DON'T GIVE HER THE PROS OF HER SEPERATION WITHOUT THE CONS. BE STRONG. DON'T MAKE THIS A CAKE WALK FOR HER
- You can see/take the kids to your place whenever you want with prior notification - ABSOLUTELY BOTH PARENTS SHOULD HAVE THAT RIGHT.
- If you want to move back in the house with me at any time, no problem - AGAIN, SHE NEEDS TO MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS BEFORE THAT CAN HAPPEN. IE NO CONTACT WITH THIS MAN, OPENNESS WITH HER PASSWORDS ETC - YOUR BEING TO SOFT WITH HER AND HANDING HER ALL YOUR POWER.
- Cannot completely move out until six months. - SHE CAN DO WHAT SHE WANTS AND WILL.
- You cannot start divorce within six months - SHE CAN DO WHAT SHE WANTS
- Counseling for both of us. - THAT WOULD BE A CONDITION OF YOURS FOR RECONCILIATION IF AND WHEN SHE PROVES SHE WANTS TO MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS AND RECONCILE.
- Keep our joint checking accounts - GREY AREA, I THINK i WOULD BE INCLINED TO HAVE A JOINT ACCOUNT FOR PAYING BILLS TOGETHER BUT TO SPLIT AND HAVE YOUR OWN ACCOUNTS AS WELL.
- No major purchases without prior agreement - IF SHE WANTS A SEPERATION GIVE HER ONE. NO JOINT CREDIT CARDS. FINANCES SEPERATE - PROTECT YOURSELF. DONT' MAKE IT EASY FOR HER. 
- Our joint business (our income) as usual
- If you get a job, all money flows into joint personal account -
- Violation of these will instigate divorce proceedings - 


Mem and Conrad are much more gifted in there communication skills than I, I hope they chime in here. I really think you need to be firmer in your approach. She cheated. She initiated a seperation. And now she is trying to dictate the terms of that seperation. You can't have a marriage and not a have a marriage. So you get to financially support her, she can come and go as she wishes, she has her own place and she's not working presently, she can date (as she has already demonstrated she is capable of) but your not going to, she can come back whenever she wants with no requirement from you being met.....seeing a pattern here? Why would she come back? She has the perfect scenario. And she certainly is not going to gain any respect for you, or any anxiety from the situation SHE created. This is a point where you REALLY need to man up. She needs to get uncomfortable. She needs to be worrying and thinking about you, she needs to acknowledge, apologize and work at repairing the damage SHE caused. She needs to PROVE to you WHY you should take HER back.


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## IanIronwood

eagleclaw said:


> Six month period - TIME PERIOD DOESN'T NEED TO BE STATED.
> - No Dating anyone (or the inverse, Dating allowed) - YOU SHOULD MAKE IT ALLOWED AS PER MY PREVIOUS MESSAGE - SHE IS WILLING SHE HAS PROVEN THAT. BE STRONG.
> - No seeing/communicating with OM - PART OF DATING, THAT'S HER CHOICE WHERE SHE GOES FROM HERE.
> - No splitting up property - AT THIS TIME, WOULDN'T EVEN MENTION IT.
> - You can come and go in the house whenever you want - NOT A CHANCE - SHE IS SEPERATING FROM YOU. YOU DESERVCE YOUR PRIVACY AND SHE DEFINATELY NOT BE COMING IN AN OUT AT WILL. DON'T GIVE HER THE PROS OF HER SEPERATION WITHOUT THE CONS. BE STRONG. DON'T MAKE THIS A CAKE WALK FOR HER
> - You can see/take the kids to your place whenever you want with prior notification - ABSOLUTELY BOTH PARENTS SHOULD HAVE THAT RIGHT.
> - If you want to move back in the house with me at any time, no problem - AGAIN, SHE NEEDS TO MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS BEFORE THAT CAN HAPPEN. IE NO CONTACT WITH THIS MAN, OPENNESS WITH HER PASSWORDS ETC - YOUR BEING TO SOFT WITH HER AND HANDING HER ALL YOUR POWER.
> - Cannot completely move out until six months. - SHE CAN DO WHAT SHE WANTS AND WILL.
> - You cannot start divorce within six months - SHE CAN DO WHAT SHE WANTS
> - Counseling for both of us. - THAT WOULD BE A CONDITION OF YOURS FOR RECONCILIATION IF AND WHEN SHE PROVES SHE WANTS TO MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS AND RECONCILE.
> - Keep our joint checking accounts - GREY AREA, I THINK i WOULD BE INCLINED TO HAVE A JOINT ACCOUNT FOR PAYING BILLS TOGETHER BUT TO SPLIT AND HAVE YOUR OWN ACCOUNTS AS WELL.
> - No major purchases without prior agreement - IF SHE WANTS A SEPERATION GIVE HER ONE. NO JOINT CREDIT CARDS. FINANCES SEPERATE - PROTECT YOURSELF. DONT' MAKE IT EASY FOR HER.
> - Our joint business (our income) as usual
> - If you get a job, all money flows into joint personal account -
> - Violation of these will instigate divorce proceedings -
> 
> 
> Mem and Conrad are much more gifted in there communication skills than I, I hope they chime in here. I really think you need to be firmer in your approach. She cheated. She initiated a seperation. And now she is trying to dictate the terms of that seperation. You can't have a marriage and not a have a marriage. So you get to financially support her, she can come and go as she wishes, she has her own place and she's not working presently, she can date (as she has already demonstrated she is capable of) but your not going to, she can come back whenever she wants with no requirement from you being met.....seeing a pattern here? Why would she come back? She has the perfect scenario. And she certainly is going to gain any respect for your, or any anxiety from the situation SHE created. This is a point where you REALLY need to man up. She needs to get uncomfortable. She needs to be worrying and thinking about you, she needs to acknowledge, apologize and work at repairing the damage SHE caused. She needs to PROVE to you WHY you should take HER back.



Word. She doesn't get to move back in without your express written permission. No brainer. And seeing the OM would invalidate the agreement. As far as financials, how much is she going to pay to support the house and the kids? The vague promise of getting a job and pooling resources is a sucker move for you -- you're giving her pretty much most of what she wants, while keeping her comfortable. Keeping the kid options open is fine, but there needs to be some common agreement there, too. 

And DEFINITELY nail down the dating thing. Then Trust But Verify.


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## MisterNiceGuy

I see what you guys are getting at. Get an agreement that makes her uncomfortable, otherwise just stay here at the house with us and the kids and work on the marriage. I got you... if you move out you open the door for me to start having the same fun she just had with her OM!

I can see what she would say already... "this is not a separation, I just need some space". Moving out is a separation, isn't it? Is that a control thing though? I'm trying to get her to stay here. Maybe we don't need an agreement, other than to make her uncomfortable. 

The other thing is to do the 180 degree thing with no agreement. One problem in our situation is that we run this business together and she just called me to tell me that we just had a large sale and was very jubilant and wanted to share that with me... I tried to cold, but it is a lot of money.


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I see what you guys are getting at. Get an agreement that makes her uncomfortable, otherwise just stay here at the house with us and the kids and work on the marriage. I got you... if you move out you open the door for me to start having the same fun she just had with her OM!
> 
> I can see what she would say already... "this is not a separation, I just need some space". Moving out is a separation, isn't it? Is that a control thing though? I'm trying to get her to stay here. Maybe we don't need an agreement, other than to make her uncomfortable.
> 
> The other thing is to do the 180 degree thing with no agreement. One problem in our situation is that we run this business together and she just called me to tell me that we just had a large sale and was very jubilant and wanted to share that with me... I tried to cold, but it is a lot of money.


Great -- enjoy the business success. But don't back down on the cold front. 

And that BS about this "not being a separation" is right up there with refusing to have sex with you "not being rejection" and her dalliance with another man "not being an affair". If she can't be honest with herself, how is she ever going to be honest with you?

She's trying to "get her space" while you hang out and watch the kids and keep her house and bed warm. That's BS. If she's not uncomfortable, then she's not giving a proper amount of thought to what she's done -- and that's not going to get her head straight.


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## eagleclaw

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I see what you guys are getting at. Get an agreement that makes her uncomfortable, otherwise just stay here at the house with us and the kids and work on the marriage. I got you... if you move out you open the door for me to start having the same fun she just had with her OM!
> 
> I can see what she would say already... "this is not a separation, I just need some space". Moving out is a separation, isn't it? Is that a control thing though? I'm trying to get her to stay here. Maybe we don't need an agreement, other than to make her uncomfortable.
> 
> The other thing is to do the 180 degree thing with no agreement. One problem in our situation is that we run this business together and she just called me to tell me that we just had a large sale and was very jubilant and wanted to share that with me... I tried to cold, but it is a lot of money.


IanIronWood is bang on. It is a seperation. Space is going to your sisters, or sleeping in the guest room. Moving out and getting an apartment is a seperation. And again, I can't say this enough. You should no longer be trying to get her to stay. You are chasing, she is running. If you want her to stop running and pause to look back and where she is running from - STOP CHASING HER. This dynamic needs to change. Even if you were successful, and she stayed - she is going to keep on disrespecting you and you gain nothing because she holds all the cards. You have a real chance here to change the dynamic of your relationship. She needs to acknowledger her behavior and sell you on her.

Everything you have read on manning up etc has a common theme. Set the thermostat lower, quit initiating, quit chasing, let her come to you etc etc etc. Now take your wife, she has strayed, lied and seperated and you are still chasing. I don't know how to illustrate this better but it is now time to change the dynamics and have her chase you. You need to in your head, move on. Start thinking about YOUR future and accept that for the time being you don't have a wife. IF and that's a big IF. She changes her mind and decides to chase you and try and convince you that she can be truley invested in this marriage - then possibly a reconcile is possible. But not until then. And she will NOT reflect back on what she had, or miss it, or work towards fixing it if she experiences no fear on her side of the tracks.


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## IanIronwood

It probably doesn't need to be said at this point, but I'll say it anyway:

YOU are the prize to be won, here, not HER. If she ever wants to get back together with you, she won't appreciate it if you don't make her work for it. And work implies some uncomfortable times and circumstances. Either she wins you back or you move on, but either way the burden is on her. Make her work for it. Or not. And let her know that's the deal. Either way, you'll eventually get what you want. But if you keep making it easy for her, she's just going to take advantage of it like she always has.


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## Conrad

IanIronwood said:


> Great -- enjoy the business success. But don't back down on the cold front.
> 
> And that BS about this "not being a separation" is right up there with refusing to have sex with you "not being rejection" and her dalliance with another man "not being an affair". If she can't be honest with herself, how is she ever going to be honest with you?
> 
> She's trying to "get her space" while you hang out and watch the kids and keep her house and bed warm. That's BS. If she's not uncomfortable, then she's not giving a proper amount of thought to what she's done -- and that's not going to get her head straight.


MNG,

Isn't your wife the one who said she as about "95% ready to have sex with you" a couple of weeks back?

Now you have a clear picture of what that meant... NOTHING.

She was planning her exit the entire time.

Nothing can be "built" until that changes.

But you cannot change it.

Ok - I'm going to stand down now.

What Eagleclaw says is 100% correct.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I see what you guys are getting at. Get an agreement that makes her uncomfortable, otherwise just stay here at the house with us and the kids and work on the marriage. I got you... if you move out you open the door for me to start having the same fun she just had with her OM!
> 
> I can see what she would say already... "this is not a separation, I just need some space". Moving out is a separation, isn't it? Is that a control thing though? I'm trying to get her to stay here. Maybe we don't need an agreement, other than to make her uncomfortable.
> 
> The other thing is to do the 180 degree thing with no agreement. One problem in our situation is that we run this business together and she just called me to tell me that we just had a large sale and was very jubilant and wanted to share that with me... I tried to cold, but it is a lot of money.


More for her to grab in the divorce


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

eagleclaw said:


> IanIronWood is bang on. It is a seperation. Space is going to your sisters, or sleeping in the guest room. Moving out and getting an apartment is a seperation. And again, I can't say this enough. You should no longer be trying to get her to stay. You are chasing, she is running. If you want her to stop running and pause to look back and where she is running from - STOP CHASING HER. This dynamic needs to change. Even if you were successful, and she stayed - she is going to keep on disrespecting you and you gain nothing because she holds all the cards. You have a real chance here to change the dynamic of your relationship. She needs to acknowledger her behavior and sell you on her.
> 
> Everything you have read on manning up etc has a common theme. Set the thermostat lower, quit initiating, quit chasing, let her come to you etc etc etc. Now take your wife, she has strayed, lied and seperated and you are still chasing. I don't know how to illustrate this better but it is now time to change the dynamics and have her chase you. You need to in your head, move on. Start thinking about YOUR future and accept that for the time being you don't have a wife. IF and that's a big IF. She changes her mind and decides to chase you and try and convince you that she can be truley invested in this marriage - then possibly a reconcile is possible. But not until then. And she will NOT reflect back on what she had, or miss it, or work towards fixing it if she experiences no fear on her side of the tracks.


So I think I still need some type of loose separation agreement with her, mainly to set some boundaries around what this separation is or isn't. I think it should mainly about our finances and the kids. I don't think I should mention anything about dating unless that is to make her sit up and think. 

I thought about having her write one up, but that seems passive to me. Coming at her with an agreement already written up and ready to sign seems more alpha. I need a day or two to mull this over. But I am getting clearer and clearer on this. It is a SEPARATION and not like she's going to sleep at a friends house for a while (like I suggested). We talked about separating about 5 days ago and that's when she moved downstairs for about 12 hours! OK, I hear you all... 180 degrees...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Also, we have an outside investor in our business that I think needs to be notified about the separation because it could put his investment in jeopardy. I need to put that in the agreement also I think.. We have two things going on here the family and the business.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Also, we have an outside investor in our business that I think needs to be notified about the separation because it could put his investment in jeopardy. I need to put that in the agreement also I think.. We have two things going on here the family and the business.


Talk seriously with him about helping you buy/force her out.

Let her know you're doing it.


----------



## eagleclaw

Except, I think you stating that dating is ok is the single most important point of all of this. I realize you are scared to death of her doing this. But she's going to do what she is going to do regardless. All your doing with this is putting her on notice that it is now an option for you as well. That's what a seperation is. Your just making it real for her. Should help her gain her focus.

As IanIronWood pointed out: It's not total freedom for her and an open door to your house as you sit and wait and act as her babysitter while she has complete freedom. In fact, your first order of business should be to get her to babysit the kids because you have "plans" - and go out for the evening with friends..... or go to a movie whatever. Just be out and let her wonder. No explanation.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

OK, lot of information here. Separation agreement or not? I think I need one legally, especially surround my business. I think that will also make her sit upand listen. Or do I just bring up these topics in a conversation and write an agreement later. I have to keep telling myself she is taking the first step to a divorce and I need some boundaries around it as much as I hate it!


----------



## Deejo

If you are trying to get her attention ... make it a divorce.

So what do you do when you go to her with a separation agreement and she tells you to stuff it ... she's talking to a divorce lawyer? 

Make no mistake. Her moving out is not about sorting out her feelings for you. She will try to recover the relationship with TOM, with the new added benefit of being alone ... or she will use her freedom to plan her fantasy life WITHOUT you.

I feel very torn about posting to your thread. 'I' feel like you're getting hammered.

There is no more concise a way to put this.
You need to think and behave as if your marriage is over. You are hoping for that moment where you scare the crap out of her and she says "I give." 
That isn't going to happen. Certainly not immediately.

If she is functioning off of the premise of knowing that you want to hang onto her and the marriage, then she has your number. She will manipulate you. 

I would strongly urge that if you do anything regarding a separation or a divorce, you do so with a professional rather than a do-it-yourself download. Do what you must. But do so with clarity and conviction. Otherwise ... you get steamrolled.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Deejo, thanks for clarifying that for me. This is going to be as hard as telling the OMW about the whole affair. I hear you... It's only been two days and she seemed to snap back from it pretty quickly, but you are right. As soon as she moves out I bet she is contact the OM again trying to start something up. It's slowly sinking in that may be her intent the whole time and she is still in LaLa land about this guy. I need to come down hard on the divorce issue and make a clear stand... give me a day or two to figure out how I'm going to handle this... I think I'll need to bring our outside investor into the mix with his lawyer.


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
I am sorry you are going through this. I just read all these other posts. Notice something: They are VERY consistent. There is a reason for that, it is because they are correct. 

Bear with me for a moment and I will give you some context and then some specific suggestions. Sadly my expertise in this area comes from having a spouse who occasionally loses her mind and then initiates a "precipice dance" with me. Through practice I have learned something fascinating from these dances. In a long term relationship there is a fixed and large amount of fear about it ending. That fear cannot be destroyed nor can it be minimized. It can only be shifted from one person to the other. 

So the way it works goes like this. If your W initiates a separation or divorce and you seem terrified it COMPLETELY removes her fear of any consequence because at an emotional level she becomes certain that you will be her safety net. So from a practical standpoint her life just got better. She gets to look for an "upgrade" while knowing that you will GLADLY take her back under ANY TERMS if she fails. So she literally has nothing to lose. 

That said the ideal separation agreement looks like this:
- You will mutually agree to "money" management rules
- You will mutually agree to sharing the child care responsibilities
- You will BOTH actively date other people. Neither of you will bring anyone over to sleep at the house unless you reach a decision to divorce at which point the kids will be informed and if you - as the guy in the house - are seeing someone seriously she will start sleeping over.  
- You WANT her to do whatever she wants to do and after experiencing whatever that is make a fully informed decision
- And YOU WILL DO THE SAME - starting effective immediately
- If at some point she wishes to revisit the idea of rapprochement - the PRECONDITIONS to even discussing that are as follows:
a. She provides an unconditional apology to you for her deceitful behavior regarding the other man (you say she won't do this - I beg to differ - she has NEVER been in this situation before. I would wager 2 weeks ago you would have sworn she was not capable of an affair. I can say with certainty - if she is capable of an affair she is capable of an apology. 
b. She understands that a sexless marriage is not a marriage and that if she cannot return to your marital bed with a loving heart she is not welcome back into the marriage (MNG - your W has a libido - a sexless marriage will precipitate more affairs - don't allow it)
c. She understands that there will be no discussion of who you or she slept with in the interim. She is moving out and in doing so forfeiting ANY right as to knowledge of your sex life while separated. 

Provided she is willing to meet those preconditions and provided you haven't yet found a more suitable partner, you will be open to discussing a "restart" to the marriage. 

I realize this sounds aggressive. It isn't. It is a firm statement of boundaries to a spouse who has tried to stomp your needs into the dust. 

If you think for a moment - that your very deceitful wife will follow ANY rules of engagement while living in an apartment and completely away from your prying eyes - you are sadly, sadly mistaken. 

If you are able to summon the courage to take the steps above, you will actually be maximizing the odds your children one day celebrate your 40th wedding anniversary. Because you will be putting most/if not all the fear of consequence on her. 

This WILL be ugly. She will claim you WANT to cheat on her. Do not respond and do not defend. Simply state: 
"You are moving out, and I am moving on". And if she attempts to get family to intercede just email them and copy her: 
"My W is abandoning the family to pursue her own agenda. She is doing this on the heals of a MASSIVE BREACH of conduct she is not even willing to acknowledge. I am simply proactively moving forward with my life"





















MisterNiceGuy said:


> Deejo, thanks for clarifying that for me. This is going to be as hard as telling the OMW about the whole affair. I hear you... It's only been two days and she seemed to snap back from it pretty quickly, but you are right. As soon as she moves out I bet she is contact the OM again trying to start something up. It's slowly sinking in that may be her intent the whole time and she is still in LaLa land about this guy. I need to come down hard on the divorce issue and make a clear stand... give me a day or two to figure out how I'm going to handle this... I think I'll need to bring our outside investor into the mix with his lawyer.


----------



## Powerbane

Mem - you rock!


----------



## MEM2020

*Pro marriage - pro fidelity - true confession*

I think it is important to clarify something really important to me. 
1. I am very pro marriage 
2. Very Pro fidelity
3. Very pro raising children in a house where the parents model MUTUALLY respectful behavior and treat each other the way THEY want to be treated and in some cases "insist" on being treated
4. Strongly opposed to deceiving your partner

My advice to MNG is completely consistent with these priorities. I sincerely believe he will MINIMIZE the odds of divorce AND infidelity if he follows it. Failing that, they both may/will end up having sex with others for a while. I hope that does not happen. I also believe that it may take the shock of seeing him with another woman to wake his W up. If that is what it takes to "save" the marriage before irreparable harm is done, then so be it. 

Lately - without meaning to - he has repeatedly given her the message that he will be "there for her" no matter what. He has tried not to. But he is struggling. My advice is targeted at reversing that message and hoping she speedily comes to her senses. 




Powerbane said:


> Mem - you rock!


----------



## MEM2020

Thanks PowerB,
You have given MNG some solid advice as well. 




Powerbane said:


> Mem - you rock!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM, hear you loud and clear!

Wife is really cranked up tonight. I can feel a fight brewing, she is just stomping around house and not talking to me after a pretty friendly day. Carrying around her iPhone like it was the most precious thing in the world. I wonder if she is having withdrawals... Something is up with her tonight. She has been in and out of her office all night. I'm not going to talk to her in this mood about a separation agreement. Maybe tomorrow... Just want to get the kids to bed and have a glass of wine.


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## MisterNiceGuy

MEM, do you think I put your suggestions in writing, or just verbally?


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> MEM, do you think I put your suggestions in writing, or just verbally?


Start verbally.

If she needs to see the above in writing - do it.

But, show absolutely no emotion or "give" on these points. (No matter how much you want to inside)

Stay the course.


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## MisterNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> 
> - You WANT her to do whatever she wants to do and after experiencing whatever that is make a fully informed decision
> - And YOU WILL DO THE SAME - starting effective immediately


MEM, a point of clarification. What do you mean here? What decision? About staying married? I'm just trying to get this all straight in my head before I hit her up with it before she moves out.

If she balks (which I'm pretty sure she will), but doesn't get the family to intercede should I still send the note suggested? or start with divorce proceedings?


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## MEM2020

MNG,
The point of her moving out is to evaluate her options. Should she remain in the M, or would she be happier with another man. And that IS the point, since it simply is not credible to claim that this move is intended to help her/you "work on the M". It is especially not true given recent events. 

So you make it easy for HER, and honestly also for you by telling her that you both WILL date and if desired, sleep with other people. This is simply openly insisting that you describe what she plans to do anyway. But you do it in a perfectly calm, constructive manner. 

She is going to "deny" that she plans to have affairs. Sorry I don't buy it. The MAIN difference between staying home and working on the marriage and moving out and "working" on the marriage is that it will be impossible for you to have any idea if she is pursuing/engaging in an affair. While there might be some situations where the move out is about "needing space", this isn't one of them. You are not crowding her, and really she just stopped a quarter step from beginning a full blown affair. 

So instead of arguing/asking her to leave but "promise" not to cheat, you give her a guilt free pass to go do so while simultaneously giving yourself a pass to do the same. 

So it kind of goes like this. Once she moves out:
1. You are both immediately free to pursue other options. And given where the marriage is, that is the healthiest thing to do. 2. Those relationships will be kept separate from the kids and
3. There will be no questions/discussion between us regarding any other relationships we may be in

I think there is a 50-50 chance this immediately kills her desire to move out as it completely destabilizes the M, and could result in her losing the "easy option" to go out, knock boots with another man, decide you are the "one", and stroll back in with the same disrespectful attitude she has been displaying that lead to this whole mess. You can't allow that. The real issue here isn't her it is you. She expects that if she promises not to cheat you will believe her (sorry but you should not) and take her back when it becomes convenient to her. But that whole plan is predicated on the idea that YOU will simply sit around the house pining for her to return. 

Once she learns you not only "might" date other women, but that you WILL be aggressively dating other women, ALL that security of MNG as her safety net/plan B, disappears. That loss of security will stop MANY spouses in their tracks. 

But you CANNOT explain the psychology here - or you kill the impact. You simply stick with the simple words that she is moving out right after a GIANT BREACH of trust, and that you will be moving on.

I would also add that you believe it is critically important she get a full time job as that will also help her evaluate what life without you would be like. 

She will almost certainly ask if you want a divorce. I think the only answer at this point is: How I feel, and what I want are not up for discussion. I am simply telling you the rules of engagement. 

She may also say that she has NO INTENTION of cheating, and that if you do, she will divorce you. And I think you have a choice here. You can go "beta light" or "alpha".
Beta light response: You just totally breached faith. We both know that you could have as much emotional/physical space as you want and still remain in the house. Clearly moving out holds some other appeal. (If she accuses you of distrust I would simply say "You have totally violated my trust - it will take time to rebuild - moving out at this point in time creates MORE distrust".)

Alpha response: You are moving out. I accept that. I am giving both of us permission to do whatever we want during the separation. I am not "cheating" because I am not lying/deceiving you, as I did not like it when that was done to me. If my dating other women - a response to you abandoning our family - results in you filing for divorce, you should file now because I AM going to date others in your absence. 

When she ANGRILY states she has zero intention to have an affair I think the best response is: "Recent events have shown otherwise. And I accept that. Not only will I tolerate you dating others, I insist you do so to get it out of your system. Go scratch this "fantasy" itch of yours and then decide if the fantasy lives up to reality. If it does, I imagine you will file. If not, you will need to decide whether you want to make the effort to repair our marriage. 

And be low key, and calm about this. Really there is nothing to get worked up about. She either respects you enough to want to remain married, or not. But you CANNOT allow a situation where she abandons, makes it easy for her to have affairs, but threatens a D if you do the same thing. 

This is indeed becoming a very high stakes game. Just remember something, it is easy to talk divorce, a whole nother thing entirely to go to a lawyer, strategize and then FILE. 

This whole sequence is intended to demand one thing and one thing only. Respect. Because for now, she is treating you without respect. And you have to change that or the marriage is utterly doomed. 





MisterNiceGuy said:


> MEM, a point of clarification. What do you mean here? What decision? About staying married? I'm just trying to get this all straight in my head before I hit her up with it before she moves out.


----------



## Affaircare

> MEM, a point of clarification. What do you mean here? What decision? About staying married? I'm just trying to get this all straight in my head before I hit her up with it before she moves out.


At this point it sounds like your wife had a fairly typical "Affair Fantasy" going in her head. Here's what an "Affair Fantasy" might look like: 

_"Hubby ignores me, neglects me, only thinks of me as a sex object. The house is never clean enough, and all he ever does is yell at me. I haven't loved him for YEARS. But OM.... He is kind and thoughtful and loving. He WANTS to be with me and thinks of my feelings. He'll do those little things and makes the effort to be loving. He knows my needs before I even express them and he can meet them effortlessly and flawlessly. I meet his needs just by smiling and sharing a smooshy email with him! He doesn't grope me--we want to have sex because we have a connection! Maybe I could divorce hubby, after all don't I deserve to be happy? My family would be happy for me and support me in divorcing. The kids would meet OM and love him. I would get the house, the kids, child support and alimony--all my friends say I should do it! And then I could move OM into the house and we would live together in 'happily-ever-after' bliss because we were destined to be together! We would all get along and there would be no more fights! I bet he would never yell at me about the dishes like hubby does. Then hubby and I could be friends and be civil for the sake of the kids" _​
Sounds REAL realistic, doesn't it? Here's reality: the OM has no intention whatsoever of leaving his wife and kids for her--he just wanted into her pants--another "conquest"!! She will lose the house and half of the family assets--some of the possessions she considers precious, she will lose. She will lose HALF of the time with her children--if not more--and will not be there to tuck them in every night. She will no longer have your financial support; she won't get alimony; and the child support is not something she can even care for the kids with! She will have to get a job and won't have the pleasure of being a SAHM any more. She will probably have to move to a little apartment, and there will be no one to help her move because she LEFT her life partner; SHE will have carry the washer or pay someone handsomely to do it for her. She will have to do all the household repairs and car repairs now. The kids will meet OM and HATE HIM. They will be disrespectful and scream at him that he broke up their family. Her family will tell her what she's doing is wrong and they won't accept him into their homes for years. She will be an angry, bitter, desperate, dumped single mother in her mid- or later- (30s? 40s?) with no cash or assets; YOU will be a free, suave, handsome, available man at the prime of your life with the best earning potential of your LIFE! 

Here's reality. You made a vow to her when you two were young. You two built a life together. You are willing to heal after this assault on your marriage, under certain conditions. She can choose to figure out P.D.Q. what is reality and get to working on fixing the mess she's made...or you will also begin to cast about looking for "better options" and experiences so you can make a more fully informed decision whether you want to stay with a person who's willing to throw all this away. 

* * * * *

BTW, I do agree with what MEM and Conrad are telling you here, and I would word it exactly as they have been suggesting, but I'm just telling you right now that I personally think dating at this time would be a mistake for you. Here's why. 

If you were to indicate to her that YOU are going to consider your options too and see if there isn't a "better match" for you out there, well shoot. You and I both know that out of the sea of ladies out there, there probably is another who'd make you pretty happy. DUH! The idea is to let her realize that she is not the only one who can "look around." Rather than saying "I'm going out on a date with that redhead I always had a crush on in the steno pool"--which if you ever did reconcile would be sort of a toughie to get past--just say "I'm going out so I won't be available" and when she says "With who? Where you going?" you say "I have made plans and I'm not disposed to tell you at this time." Meanwhile, I'm sure you're not blind (or dead). You know that women occasionally check you out or that if you dressed up or smelled good that women would. I don't really think that's the issue. The issue here, I think, is for HER to realize that. 

And I recommend not dating because of this scenario--you decide to date, and a couple are just casual, kind of "cup of coffee" nice ladies, but the fourth one--WOW! She's good looking, funny, smart, sexy, flirty and obviously into you...and you don't mean to but you two start to hook up. You're honest with her and tell her you're separated and yet you can't help it, this woman is amazing! And right about then your wife says, "Honey, let's try to work this out. I have seen the error of my ways. I am willing to be transparent and admit what I did was wrong. I even have gone to some counseling and realize I had some personal issues." Now what happens? You hurt yourself either way--and either you break your vows to your wife or you break the heart of the new lady, whom you used. 

Thus, during this time when nothing is really official, I suggest that saying you'll be out thing...and then practice a little with groups. Go to a Divorce Support groups with men and women. Go to a mixed bowling league. Go to Boy Scouts! LOL  Remind yourself that you can be desired, and remind yourself of the things you do to "look and smell good" before you go out, etc. Those are some things you could start doing again to bring back that man your wife loves who is the REAL YOU. 

This will also help her to realize that she's not the only one who could look around and find someone "better." There are plenty of women out there who'd be more than willing to be step-mom to her kids, take your financial security and all you can offer, and have a clear understanding that sex is not a weapon or a reward! So help clear her fog.


----------



## MEM2020

I agree with AC. Your W NEEDS to BELIEVE you are out dating and maybe having sex. But at least for a couple months you should not actually dive into a relationship/or have sex with someone. You DO have to establish ground rules where she is not allowed to ask. And you WILL have to enforce them as she WILL ask. Just say "we agreed not to discuss that". And be silent after that no matter what she says. 

I also think a couple of "sleepovers" are a good thing. They will actually just be you crashing discreetly at a trusted friends house, but she won't know that.

Right now she thinks that SHE is your only option. And that YOU are her PLAN B. That has to change before your marriage can begin to heal. 




Affaircare said:


> At this point it sounds like your wife had a fairly typical "Affair Fantasy" going in her head. Here's what an "Affair Fantasy" might look like:
> 
> _"Hubby ignores me, neglects me, only thinks of me as a sex object. The house is never clean enough, and all he ever does is yell at me. I haven't loved him for YEARS. But OM.... He is kind and thoughtful and loving. He WANTS to be with me and thinks of my feelings. He'll do those little things and makes the effort to be loving. He knows my needs before I even express them and he can meet them effortlessly and flawlessly. I meet his needs just by smiling and sharing a smooshy email with him! He doesn't grope me--we want to have sex because we have a connection! Maybe I could divorce hubby, after all don't I deserve to be happy. I would get the house, the kids, child support and alimony--all my friends say I should do it! And then I could move OM into the house and we would live together in 'happily-ever-after' bliss because we were destined to be together! I bet he would never yell at me about the dishes like hubby does!" _
> 
> Sounds REAL realistic, doesn't it? Here's reality: the OM has no intention whatsoever of leaving his wife and kids for her--he just wanted into her pants--another "conquest"!! She will lose the house and half of the family assets--some of the possessions she considers precious, she will lose. She will lose HALF of the time with her children--if not more--and will not be there to tuck them in every night. She will no longer have your financial support; she won't get alimony; and the child support is not something she can even care for the kids with! She will have to get a job and won't have the pleasure of being a SAHM any more. She will probably have to move to a little apartment, and there will be no one to help her move because she LEFT her life partner; SHE will have carry the washer or pay someone handsomely to do it for her. She will have to do all the household repairs and car repairs now. She will be an angry, bitter, desperate, dumped single mother in her mid- or later- (30s? 40s?) with no cash or assets; YOU will be a free, suave, handsome, available man at the prime of your life with the best earning potential of your LIFE!
> 
> Here's reality. You made a vow to her when you two were young. You two built a life together. You are willing to heal after this assault on your marriage, under certain conditions. She can choose to figure out P.D.Q. what is reality and get to working on fixing the mess she's made...or you will also begin to cast about looking for "better options" and experiences so you can make a more fully informed decision whether you want to stay with a person who's willing to throw all this away.
> 
> *****
> 
> BTW, I do agree with what MEM and Conrad are telling you here, and I would word it exactly as they have been suggesting, but I'm just telling you right now that I personally think dating at this time would be a mistake for you. Here's why.
> 
> If you were to indicate to her that YOU are going to consider your options too and see if there isn't a "better match" for you out there, well shoot. You and I both know that out of the sea of ladies out there, there probably is another who'd make you pretty happy. DUH! The idea is to let her realize that she is not the only one who can "look around." Rather than saying "I'm going out on a date with that redhead I always had a crush on in the steno pool"--which if you ever did reconcile would be sort of a toughie to get past--just say "I'm going out so I won't be available" and when she says "With who? Where you going?" you say "I have made plans and I'm not disposed to tell you at this time." Meanwhile, I'm sure you're not blind (or dead). You know that women occasionally check you out or that if you dressed up or smelled good that women would. I don't really think that's the issue. The issue here, I think, is for HER to realize that.
> 
> And I recommend not dating because of this scenario--you decide to date, and a couple are just casual, kind of "cup of coffee" nice ladies, but the fourth one--WOW! She's good looking, funny, smart, sexy, flirty and obviously into you...and you don't mean to but you two start to hook up. You're honest with her and tell her you're separated and yet you can't help it, this woman is amazing! And right about then your wife says, "Honey, let's try to work this out. I have seen the error of my ways. I am willing to be transparent and admit what I did was wrong. I even have gone to some counseling and realize I had some personal issues." Now what happens? You hurt yourself either way--and either you break your vows to your wife or you break the heart of the new lady, whom you used.
> 
> Thus, during this time when nothing is really official, I suggest that saying you'll be out thing...and then practice a little with groups. Go to a Divorce Support groups with men and women. Go to a mixed bowling league. Go to Boy Scouts! LOL  Remind yourself that you can be desired, and remind yourself of the things you do to "look and smell good" before you go out, etc. Those are some things you could start doing again to bring back that man your wife loves who is the REAL YOU.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM and AC those are great posts!

We had already been to the Beta-lite separation before I dropped the bomb. She was going to live downstairs until we figured it out, but that lasted a total of one night and she was back upstairs the next day (then started planning dates with the OM at the same time and that's when I knew I had to end it). If I have the guts, I might go the Alpha route this time to rattle her cage. It's true though she can have all the space she needs here in this house. We have a big house and we don't have to see each other much, but she can still stay here. It's true, she doesn't respect me. She never has, maybe until I broke up her affair. I'm trying to Man Up as much as I can!

Affaircare - That first paragraph is pretty accurate of our situation. I still don't think she fully understands what separation means. She can't put the kids to bed every night. She can't be with them every day of the week. I think that will grind on her. Her new apartment has no furniture and she said the kids can sleep in sleeping bags (WTF?). For how long? Clearly she has not thought this through at all...

On the dating thing, while it appeals to me on a certain level, mentally I am not there yet and I would give myself like six months to get my head on straight before I started dating and yes I am athletic, attractive, interesting, successful and all that stuff and my wife is 50, employable but not employed. Her odds of finding someone are about nil... I am a year younger than her and I can get women in their 30s still, no problem. She is looking at 50 year old men in her future, because younger men are not looking for 50 year old women, they are looking for women way younger than them...


----------



## MEM2020

*The grand facade*

MNG,
The bit about needing 6 months to clear your head makes total sense. And in fact it shows a high degree of love for your W. But remember our goal here is to obtain an optimal result. So far better to project this message:
- As soon as you move out - my confidence that YOU actually are committed to this marriage plummets
- Given that I am going to being dating and start seeing what my other options are

Actually I like this tactic better than what I mentioned in my earlier post. You can ignore the HIGHLY volatile topic of what she "plans" to do in terms of extramarital sex. Ignore it. Just focus on "commitment". You make the statement that you "feel it signifies a serious lack of commitment" and then no matter what her rebuttal you just "shrug". This is body language for - I don't care if you disagree - or - it doesn't matter as I am going to do what I said. 

I have good news for you. I will be shocked if you wife can tolerate 30 days of this. If you can hang for 30 days - good chance (better than 50-50) she comes to her senses.




MisterNiceGuy said:


> MEM and AC those are great posts!
> 
> We had already been to the Beta-lite separation before I dropped the bomb. She was going to live downstairs until we figured it out, but that lasted a total of one night and she was back upstairs the next day (then started planning dates with the OM at the same time and that's when I knew I had to end it). If I have the guts, I might go the Alpha route this time to rattle her cage. It's true though she can have all the space she needs here in this house. We have a big house and we don't have to see each other much, but she can still stay here. It's true, she doesn't respect me. She never has, maybe until I broke up her affair. I'm trying to Man Up as much as I can!
> 
> Affaircare - That first paragraph is pretty accurate of our situation. I still don't think she fully understands what separation means. She can't put the kids to bed every night. She can't be with them every day of the week. I think that will grind on her. Her new apartment has no furniture and she said the kids can sleep in sleeping bags (WTF?). For how long? Clearly she has not thought this through at all...
> 
> On the dating thing, while it appeals to me on a certain level, mentally I am not there yet and I would give myself like six months to get my head on straight before I started dating and yes I am athletic, attractive, interesting, successful and all that stuff and my wife is 50, employable but not employed. Her odds of finding someone are about nil... I am a year younger than her and I can get women in their 30s still, no problem. She is looking at 50 year old men in her future, because younger men are not looking for 50 year old women, they are looking for women way younger than them...


----------



## AFEH

MNG. Being fifty years old is a difficult time for some. It’s a time when we can predict the future from the past and if we don’t like that future we look to change it. I think that’s what your wife is doing, looking to change her future. But like many spouses instead of ending the marriage with a divorce she chose cheating as her way of getting her new future.

But is the grass really greener on the other side of the hill? She wont know until she experiences it will she? So she is trying to keep your side of the hill open to her while she tries out the other side. That’s why you let her go so she can discover it for herself. But you don’t let her stay on your side of the hill in as much as you can do it. It is a case of withholding your love for her and whatever services you provide for her to get her onto the other side of the hill as quickly as you are able to. That drops them in the deep end quickly rather than let them make a slow transition to their new life by using and abusing you.

Maybe when she’s living her new life MNG she will discover that the other side of the hill is barren and the green grass simply does not exist. I know this stuff MNG. After 40 years I’m 12 months separated from my wife. She has discovered that the green grass she thought was there just doesn’t exist.

Bob


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
Well said.




AFEH said:


> MNG. Being fifty years old is a difficult time for some. It’s a time when we can predict the future from the past and if we don’t like that future we look to change it. I think that’s what your wife is doing, looking to change her future. But like many spouses instead of ending the marriage with a divorce she chose cheating as her way of getting her new future.
> 
> But is the grass really greener on the other side of the hill? She wont know until she experiences it will she? So she is trying to keep your side of the hill open to her while she tries out the other side. That’s why you let her go so she can discover it for herself. But you don’t let her stay on your side of the hill in as much as you can do it. It is a case of withholding your love for her and whatever services you provide for her to get her onto the other side of the hill as quickly as you are able to. That drops them in the deep end quickly rather than let them make a slow transition to their new life by using and abusing you.
> 
> Maybe when she’s living her new life MNG she will discover that the other side of the hill is barren and the green grass simply does not exist. I know this stuff MNG. After 40 years I’m 12 months separated from my wife. She has discovered that the green grass she thought was there just doesn’t exist.
> 
> Bob


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## Atholk

I'm not generally in favor of having sex with others during a separation. Yes it can be very effective at gaining her attention, but it complicates things enormously. Makes the repair job much harder and longer.

I am very much in favor of making it very clear that you can take steps towards replacing her if you are pushed that far. i.e. physical exercise and looking hotter, dressing better, flirting more with others, being more mysterious, not immediately answering every text or call etc.

Also with a 50 year old woman who wants to leave and play the field... just start laughing at them like they are clueless idiots. Losing an ungrateful cheating 50 year old woman and you starting a relationship up with a 35-40 year old woman in 6-12 months is a huge win for you.

You love her though, so I understand why you want her back. Even if it is getting you less of a woman than you could get.


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## Deejo

Atholk said:


> I'm not generally in favor of having sex with others during a separation. Yes it can be very effective at gaining her attention, but it complicates things enormously. Makes the repair job much harder and longer.


F*ckin' A it does. It's a bad idea. Especially if you are using it as a band-aid for a broken heart ... which you would be.

I believe the advice given is far more about appearances and perception.

It's obvious to me that MNG wants his marriage back, sans crazy-ass, untrustworthy wife.


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## greenpearl

I don't understand people who want a body without a soul together!


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## eagleclaw

Mem was able to paint the exact picture I was so clumbsily trying to paint. Spot on what I was getting at though. I'm not suggesting you DO date right off the bat, but she needs to think you are. As you pointed out you already tried the beta lite approach and things got worse. Sounds to me like nothing less than full alpha is going to get her attention. She sounds a bit like my wife, a master at manipulating any situation to give her the upper hand. If you were already trying to man up because that was lacking, I would submit that NOW you need to go full alpha on this - I can't think of a marital issue more deserving.........


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## MisterNiceGuy

Ha! she threw me a curve ball this morning! She isn't moving out. We really can't afford it she says. She's going back down to the guest bedroom downstairs. As soon as she finds a job she is out of here. She isn't going to work on the marriage at all yet... maybe in the future... argh! In the mood she's in, I can't force her back upstairs into our bed and try to actively work on our marriage!


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## Deejo

greenpearl said:


> I don't understand people who want a body without a soul together!


You do want both. At some point you had both. That's what you remember. That's what you hope for and why you hang in there and deal with the crap ... until it becomes obvious that there is no soul any more.


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## alphaomega

MEM,

What's a Precipice Dance?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eagleclaw

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Ha! she threw me a curve ball this morning! She isn't moving out. We really can't afford it she says. She's going back down to the guest bedroom downstairs. As soon as she finds a job she is out of here. She isn't going to work on the marriage at all yet... maybe in the future... argh! In the mood she's in, I can't force her back upstairs into our bed and try to actively work on our marriage!


And you shouldn't want to.

Not until she acknowledges what she has done, apologizes for it and attempts to convince you WHY you should take her back.

Your still chasing - and she isn't giving you any reason to do so. You need to get it in your head that she needs to meet your requirements now before working on the marriage is even considered. Are you REALLY willing to accept all that happened and just sweep it under the rug and continue down the road your marriage has been on the last few months?


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## bluesky

Remind her that her indecisiveness is providing an unstable environment for the children.
That moving out is NOT a small decision as YOU need to provide stability for the kids.

I would go one step further ..... and say....ARE YOU OK MENTALLY? HOW CAN MAKE SUCH ENORMOUS DECISIONS AND CHANGE THEM SO QUICKLY?

Do so in a very calm MANLY way.


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## MisterNiceGuy

I might sound like I'm chasing her here, but in reality I've been the cool, pissed off husband that I've been since I dropped the bomb. I think she is just trying to feel like she has the upper hand here. I think I'll give her a day or two with her new decision before I do anything else about it. I guess I'm back to the 180 degree plan for now and getting on with my life...


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## MisterNiceGuy

bluesky said:


> Remind her that her indecisiveness is providing an unstable environment for the children.
> That moving out is NOT a small decision as YOU need to provide stability for the kids.
> 
> I would go one step further ..... and say....ARE YOU OK MENTALLY? HOW CAN MAKE SUCH ENORMOUS DECISIONS AND CHANGE THEM SO QUICKLY?
> 
> Do so in a very calm MANLY way.


You know how she can do that, because she is a woman coming off an affair and isn't thinking things through and clearly enough to make sound decisions. From what I've read it can take a couple of weeks for them to start thinking clearly again after the break up...


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I might sound like I'm chasing her here, but in reality I've been the cool, pissed off husband that I've been since I dropped the bomb. I think she is just trying to feel like she has the upper hand here. I think I'll give her a day or two with her new decision before I do anything else about it. I guess I'm back to the 180 degree plan for now and getting on with my life...


I know you're in a tough spot, but I would at least push her towards the door -- indicate that she is no longer welcome in your home as your wife and that staying is not a wise idea. "I think we should stick with your original plan" or "I'm not comfortable with that until we're know where we stand. Perhaps you should go stay with a girlfriend if you can't find a place." Start bringing in boxes and shifting stuff around. DO NOT even _attempt _to get her to move back into the bedroom or you will have lost everything. 

You are still chasing her, at least in your heart, and you need to stop. She has lost the right to dictate to you. She has lost the power in the relationship, unless you hand it back to her again. And appearing to give even an inch right now is going to show her that she has her power back. Stay strong. Head her towards the door. If you still have to work with her, so be it, but there's no reason you should have to share a roof with a woman who is not your de facto wife.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Yes... I was up half the night working myself up for this moving out thing and now she's changed gears on me again. She is much better at this dance than I am, that's for sure. Right now I'm there for the kids and giving her the 180 degree treatment until I figure out what to do next... 

I think her mother and best friend must be putting pressure for her to stay here with the kids. Seeing how easily she flopped on the moving out thing, if I can just pressure on her about living in this house with my rules, she might capitulate... playing cool right now...


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## bluesky

> You know how she can do that, because she is a woman coming off an affair and isn't thinking things through and clearly enough to make sound decisions. From what I've read it can take a couple of weeks for them to start thinking clearly again after the break up...


Agreed, but you need to point out that the insanity and instability in not in the best interest of the children.
Moving out is an ENORMOUS decision, one that requires planning.


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## eagleclaw

Exactly! Yes, yes, yes.




IanIronwood said:


> I know you're in a tough spot, but I would at least push her towards the door -- indicate that she is no longer welcome in your home as your wife and that staying is not a wise idea. "I think we should stick with your original plan" or "I'm not comfortable with that until we're know where we stand. Perhaps you should go stay with a girlfriend if you can't find a place." Start bringing in boxes and shifting stuff around. DO NOT even _attempt _to get her to move back into the bedroom or you will have lost everything.
> 
> You are still chasing her, at least in your heart, and you need to stop. She has lost the right to dictate to you. She has lost the power in the relationship, unless you hand it back to her again. And appearing to give even an inch right now is going to show her that she has her power back. Stay strong. Head her towards the door. If you still have to work with her, so be it, but there's no reason you should have to share a roof with a woman who is not your de facto wife.


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## MisterNiceGuy

One thing... I don't think she understand the depth of my angry with her. I think in her head, she is pissed at me and I'm just taking her anger... I'm being cool and aloof so I'm not going to have a sit down with her about it as it would just exacerbate things right now. I was thinking about writing a letter to her about how pissed off I am and how much she betrayed the trust of our marriage. Is that useful or just a waste of time?


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## Deejo

Write the letter for your benefit. Don't give it to her. Deaf ears at the moment. Quite honestly, while the prospect of divorce is in play, I wouldn't give her anything written.


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## nice777guy

If she leaves the house, it looks bad later when you are talking about custody and child support.

ABSOLUTELY nothing in writing - not even a grocery list.


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## eagleclaw

Deejo said:


> Write the letter for your benefit. Don't give it to her. Deaf ears at the moment. Quite honestly, while the prospect of divorce is in play, I wouldn't give her anything written.


100% agree.

And your assessment of your wife is spot on. She still feels she has control and it's her anger - she is not considering your view of all this. That is my whole point on changing this dynamic - and it can only be done by being strong, being assertive, enforcing your boundries, and sticking to your plan at all costs.

Fear is healthy. You have fear, she does not. She needs some. Share it.


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## eagleclaw

OMG - I almost sounded like MEM. LOL.


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## MisterNiceGuy

She was talking to her brother in the office downstairs. I only heard snippets, but she thinks I'm prancing around here smug at what I've done, but actually I'm just pissed off... not smug... I wished she understood the difference.



eagleclaw said:


> 100% agree.
> 
> And your assessment of your wife is spot on. She still feels she has control and it's her anger - she is not considering your view of all this. That is my whole point on changing this dynamic - and it can only be done by being strong, being assertive, enforcing your boundries, and sticking to your plan at all costs.
> 
> Fear is healthy. You have fear, she does not. She needs some. Share it.


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## eagleclaw

She needs to start wondering if you can forgive her, and if you still want her, given what SHE has done.


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## IanIronwood

DO NOT write her a letter -- it proves that you're still emotionally invested in the relationship, and while she may not act like she cares about that right now the simple fact is that any sign that you're considering a reconciliation already proves that she's still in control. Unless you end the letter with "I want a divorce -- pack your **** and move out tomorrow" then expressing your pain like that isn't going to do jack. It certainly won't make her respect you more, and I'd say it's 50-50 that she'd end up seeing it as a sign of your personal weakness instead. 

Barely speak. Barely communicate. Don't text. Don't email. Don't write. Don't call. Take care of your business and let her feel the pain of her impending loneliness. Start bringing home copies of Apartment Finder and such and leaving them for her. 

But you have to get her out of there, man. Every day she stays is a victory. So far she hasn't even spent the night elsewhere. So y'all are a married couple having a fight, to her mind, not a previously married couple about to split up. THAT'S what she has to feel before you have a hope of gaining her respect. The door, no more.


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She was talking to her brother in the office downstairs. I only heard snippets, but she thinks I'm prancing around here smug at what I've done, but actually I'm just pissed off... not smug... I wished she understood the difference.


You need to give her a tangible sign that it isn't smugness, it's a change of heart. 

Maybe if you rented one of those mobile storage units and started packing up her stuff. It's going to take a sign of that magnitude to convince her you're serious.


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## eagleclaw

IanIronwood said:


> DO NOT write her a letter -- it proves that you're still emotionally invested in the relationship, and while she may not act like she cares about that right now the simple fact is that any sign that you're considering a reconciliation already proves that she's still in control. Unless you end the letter with "I want a divorce -- pack your **** and move out tomorrow" then expressing your pain like that isn't going to do jack. It certainly won't make her respect you more, and I'd say it's 50-50 that she'd end up seeing it as a sign of your personal weakness instead.
> 
> Barely speak. Barely communicate. Don't text. Don't email. Don't write. Don't call. Take care of your business and let her feel the pain of her impending loneliness. Start bringing home copies of Apartment Finder and such and leaving them for her.
> 
> But you have to get her out of there, man. Every day she stays is a victory. So far she hasn't even spent the night elsewhere. So y'all are a married couple having a fight, to her mind, not a previously married couple about to split up. THAT'S what she has to feel before you have a hope of gaining her respect. The door, no more.


%1000 agree. Well said. this is exactly it and your only hope. It's hard for you, and goes against your insticts I know - but based on what's happened and the current state of affairs it has to be done.


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## IanIronwood

Also, if you haven't changed all of your own passwords, do so at once. And microphones are cheap -- if she's on premises and you have the opportunity, then gathering intelligence by taping her unknowingly might be a very smart thing to do. Sure, probably not admissible in court, and perhaps illegal, but it will give you some additional information that may prove valuable. Heck, a pinhole camera to determine her new password might be fun, too. And getting a copy of her texts from the phone company (assuming you're on the same account) should be pretty easy -- and revealing -- too.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Just did that this morning... I think I caught snooping in my email so I changed all my passwords and keycoded my iphone. She still leaves her computer open and her diary open so I have peeked in there and she is pissed at me...



IanIronwood said:


> Also, if you haven't changed all of your own passwords, do so at once. And microphones are cheap -- if she's on premises and you have the opportunity, then gathering intelligence by taping her unknowingly might be a very smart thing to do. Sure, probably not admissible in court, and perhaps illegal, but it will give you some additional information that may prove valuable. Heck, a pinhole camera to determine her new password might be fun, too. And getting a copy of her texts from the phone company (assuming you're on the same account) should be pretty easy -- and revealing -- too.


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## eagleclaw

She had the EA, she was misleading you, and pursuing a relationship with another man. - and SHE is PISSED with you? Who cares......YOU ARE PISSED AT HER!!!! And rightfully so.


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She was talking to her brother in the office downstairs. I only heard snippets, but she thinks I'm prancing around here smug at what I've done, but actually I'm just pissed off... not smug... I wished she understood the difference.


MNG,

I want you to think about what this means.

Really think about it.

Smug? The left cheek of my ass you're smug. You're still frightened. In fact, you are desperately searching for any "sign" that this will all turn out "ok" (ie: reconciliation)

BUT THIS IS HOW SHE SEES YOU RIGHT NOW

SMUG - PRANCING - VICTORIOUS

Take her at her word - and respond accordingly.

The LAST thing you want to show her right now is mercy. The last thing you want to show her is weakness - no matter how badly you want this to "work out".

The very second you show that, she breathes a sigh of relief and starts plotting her "new life" - bankrolled by you and your business and the only element missing will be you. You will re-establish yourself as the "fallback" in case the "good new stuff" doesn't work out as she's planned. And, she will believe she can dictate terms.

This is why she cannot decide what to do right now. Stay or go... out or in....

She's upset her grand plan got schmeissed. She's upset at you doing it. But, what she's desperately searching for right now is how to re-establish HERSELF as the alpha dog in your house.

So, for God's sake, quit trying to read some sort of softness or kindness into her decisions right now. It's merely thrashing about and childish entitlement.

No reason to be overtly mean. But, there can be absolutely no message sent that you will bankroll her decisions - whatever they are.

In fact, the opposite message is the appropriate one.


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## IanIronwood

Look, we're all saying about the same thing, MNG, and for good reason. It used to be that women were the ones with the cabal of pals they could bounce stuff off of and get advice from, but thanks to the anonymity of the internet allowing us to express ourselves without fear of repercussion, this bunch of guys is in your corner and giving you the straight dope -- but as guys, don't expect us to sugar coat it. We wouldn't be doing you any favors by doing so. 

Conrad's got it right: she's trying to guilt you into admitting defeat, dropping your "mad", and allowing things to slowly turn back into a low-res version of what they were. It's a ploy. It's a trap! You can't repel guilt of that magnitude! 

Or that's what she wants you to think.

Freeze the ()*&%^)*& out, let her suffer your silence. If she wants to pretend you're being smug, let her. Until she sees that your serious, this is just a game of manipulation to her. When that Mobile Storage Unit shows up in the driveway and you start packing her up, however, she might rethink the whole "smug" thing. But you have to quit allowing her to be comfortable. That undermines your whole plan.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Ok ok I here you all! Smug/pissed off. I can do this for a long time. What am I looking for next?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Ok ok I here you all! Smug/pissed off. I can do this for a long time. What am I looking for next?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To enjoy yourself and basically forget about her as much as you can.

This is what's killing you.

The next move (if things are to be reconciled) MUST come from her. But, it won't be through you inferring it or trying to guess it.

If that moment comes, it will be a huge, tear-filled, high emotion equivalent of a big fat slow pitch right down the middle of the plate.

You could be on the moon and not miss it.

So, don't look for it.

Let it look for you.


----------



## IanIronwood

Denial. 
"I never did anything wrong! You did!" 
"It wasn't like I was going to sleep with him" 
"I was never thinking about leaving until you did that!"
"I had no idea you felt so strongly about that!"


And then bargaining:

"Hey, how about we both admit that we were wrong and forget the whole thing?"

"Well, this kind of pays you back for when you ______________."

"This is really rough on the kids. How about we just pretend that we're together, so we don't disturb them, until we get this sorted out?"

"I'm willing to discuss what happened, but let's not point fingers, okay? We're both at fault."

"How about you take the master BR tonight, and I'll take it every other night?"

"Move out? Sorry, can't afford it. I'll just stay downstairs until we can sort this out. You'll come to your senses eventually."


When she can't deny that she did anything wrong, and she can't deny that you're deeply hurt and seriously considering ending the relationship, then she'll start trying to chip away at the perception that she's at fault -- at all -- with all sorts of bargaining and wheedling. 

Oh. Stop wearing your wedding ring for a while. See if she notices.


----------



## MEM2020

*Cold cold cold*

Anger is hot. Love is hot. Indifference is cold. TOTAL indifference is absolute zero. 

Anger is simply the male expression of fear. You get to be as angry as you like - but NOT so she can see it. 

If you write her a letter she will take it as "He is SO in love with me he NEEDS me to see his point of view". Worst possible act you can take. 

SHE will soon initiate a conversation about the relationship. Ignore it and simply ask her when she is moving out. You will get no remorse and no respect until SHE fears YOU. And she will NEVER fear your anger. But is terrified of your indifference. 

Treat her as if she has ALREADY moved out. Like she doesn't exist. 





MisterNiceGuy said:


> Ok ok I here you all! Smug/pissed off. I can do this for a long time. What am I looking for next?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

NOTE TO SELF: The word "fear" does not mean "I am afraid you may harm me" or the feeling of being scared per se. It is more like when we say that we FEAR the Lord God Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth. He is a pure and holy; He is a jealous God; and we've given Him plenty of reason to tremble in His presence. 

So the target you're aiming at is not "look at me and be afraid that I will decimate you if you don't do what I want, when I want it, the way I want it done." The target you're aiming at is "look at me and see the man who will stand up to whole world to protect our family, who won't tolerate your shenanigans and will do the hard things to put you in your place, and who is worthy of the deepest respect and honor." 

Finally, even the term "put you in your place" doesn't carry a connotation of lording it over her, but rather that in the end the man with his hands on the rutter steering this family is you. Part of your love to her is that when she NEEDS to grow up and be personally responsible...you will make the hard decision and let her learn it without being weak and caving in when it's hard for her. Does that make sense? Parents are often called upon to "make a hard decision" for their children or for their rebellious teen--and as the MAN who loves her, you have to make the hard decision here...for her own good.


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## MisterNiceGuy

indifference. Already doing that. She just texted me and said she was going to the store and asked me how it was going? Jeez. She really is cake eating. Did not respond. I already am some nights out with the guys.This is difficult but necessary. 



MEM11363 said:


> Anger is hot. Love is hot. Indifference is cold. TOTAL indifference is absolute zero.
> 
> Anger is simply the male expression of fear. You get to be as angry as you like - but NOT so she can see it.
> 
> If you write her a letter she will take it as "He is SO in love with me he NEEDS me to see his point of view". Worst possible act you can take.
> 
> SHE will soon initiate a conversation about the relationship. Ignore it and simply ask her when she is moving out. You will get no remorse and no respect until SHE fears YOU. And she will NEVER fear your anger. But is terrified of your indifference.
> 
> Treat her as if she has ALREADY moved out. Like she doesn't exist.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

*Re: Cold cold cold*

I bet the conversation comes soon... she is already looking at me like WTF is wrong with you! I can feel it coming... but I think it will take a long time for capitulation where she totally owns the problem... Indifference for now...



MEM11363 said:


> Anger is hot. Love is hot. Indifference is cold. TOTAL indifference is absolute zero.
> 
> Anger is simply the male expression of fear. You get to be as angry as you like - but NOT so she can see it.
> 
> If you write her a letter she will take it as "He is SO in love with me he NEEDS me to see his point of view". Worst possible act you can take.
> 
> SHE will soon initiate a conversation about the relationship. Ignore it and simply ask her when she is moving out. You will get no remorse and no respect until SHE fears YOU. And she will NEVER fear your anger. But is terrified of your indifference.
> 
> Treat her as if she has ALREADY moved out. Like she doesn't exist.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

*Re: Cold cold cold*

Walked in the house and my older son says "mommy is pissed off!" and I can hear her on the phone downstairs just sobbing and talking to someone... She came up a few minutes later and was just a train wreck... she is back down in her layer right now sulking... I actually feel in control and confident and moving on with my life, making plans to have some fun.



MisterNiceGuy said:


> I bet the conversation comes soon... she is already looking at me like WTF is wrong with you! I can feel it coming... but I think it will take a long time for capitulation where she totally owns the problem... Indifference for now...


----------



## Conrad

*Re: Cold cold cold*



MisterNiceGuy said:


> Walked in the house and my older son says "mommy is pissed off!" and I can hear her on the phone downstairs just sobbing and talking to someone... She came up a few minutes later and was just a train wreck... she is back down in her layer right now sulking... I actually feel in control and confident and moving on with my life, making plans to have some fun.


This sounds better.

Always remember, the most difficult part of any flight is the first 3 minutes after lift-off.


----------



## alphaomega

Ok! MNG!

I feel you are readin the advise everyone is giving, but your not really getting it. The "conversation" is not going to come today, or tomorrow, or next week. It's goin to come in two months, maybe three. As an example, I'm going to reiterate my story to show you how likely this is going to play out....

My wife had an EA. Said she hated me. I drove her to the affair. That her heart wasn't ever really with me the entire marriage. That she wasted 15 years of her life with me.
I got fed up, then told her it's time to separate...this was my manning up moment. However, she said we should wait until after Xmas. Then, it was after spring. That we should stay in the same house and put on a good face for the kids. Maybe wait things out until we decide what we should do with our marriage. Then she wanted me to move out because it would be easier on the kids. And this was all in the first two days after I told her at it time to separate. I kept my cool though, and had my calm, composed, and determined attitude that we were in fact separating. She didn't put much effort into finding a place, so I found one for her. I paid the first and last months rent, called up some of my buddies, and moved all her stuff in two days over the weekend. Then, over he next two months, I heard every excuse that it was all my fault she had to find someone else. But I just shrugged, and said " whatever makes you feel better, dear". Then I started dating casually, and that's when she really got pi$$Ed at me. Started calling me names, said stuff like " well, at least I didn't Fu(k him like you are with all your girlfriends ( well, yes, I had a few dates, but never had sex). Then she called me up and asked how I could replace her so fast? I told her that she replaced me months ago, and me....I'm just moving on. Then she told all her family that I had girlfriends, which is why the marriage fell apart...which I had a fun time setting everyone straight about that misconception. Lol.

Then, came the pleading phase. She would call me up and wanted me to spend time with her. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn't. But our time together was always indifferent, still. Taking kids to the park, etc. We did talk a bit during this time, but she always told me she wasn't guilty about what sh did because she needed that love from someone. So....more indifference from me, and less time together. Especially at Xmas and new years. We had the kids at separate times at Xmas, and I totally blew her off at new years - she asked if I wanted to spend new years with her, and I told her that I already had plans with a group of friends. She texted me a lot that night, but I just ignored them.

So, why am I telling you this? Because it didn't happen fast. It took time for her to come to reason and finally get that proverbial smack in the head that made her realize that this separation was serious, and divorce was only 8 months away ( you need a 12 month separation before u can divorce in this country). And to prove Conrad has great advise, that day finally came where my wife showed up unannounced at my door, balling her eyes out, telling me she was soooooooo sorry for what she did. That she wanted to try MCing again, and this time for real, with all our hearts. And that she hoped I didn't have a girlfriend already because she wanted US to be back together. Of course, not to give away the upper hand at all, I made her wait a few days for my decision.

And if you realize it's not going to happen fast, then you can now start really behaving like the marriage is over and use that knowledge to really man up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Cold cold cold*

Excellent. Some prep for the super volatile conversation(s) to come. No matter what SHE says about the R - the simple - SHORT and flat affect response goes like this:

Until you are ready to show total commitment to fixing our marriage - there is nothing to talk about. 

If she asks what you mean - just chuckle. I mean it. Short laugh followed by utter silence. Do NOT explain what total commitment means. Do not justify it. Do not try to "sell" her on your position. You are the injured party - you make statements that define your boundaries. That is all. THIS boundary is "I will have nothing to do with my almost cheating W until she begins to make a sincere effort to work with me". 

She MAY ask if you will attend MC. I think a muted "ok" is fine for that. LET her set it up. And in counseling let HER do the talking. You are fine. If in counseling she reiterates her plan to move out that is when you should hit her with the short "rules of engagement" including BOTH of you actively dating. 

At some point she WILL melt down on you. Let her melt down - if she gets nasty just rotate 180 degrees in place and then walk away with your head up. This "says" in body language - I am turning my back on your crazy behavior. If she follows you go in a room and shut the door or if need be walk out of the house and go somewhere and TURN your phone off. The next time you see her - pretend nothing has happened. 

And I love it that you are going out more with friends. LOVE IT.




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Walked in the house and my older son says "mommy is pissed off!" and I can hear her on the phone downstairs just sobbing and talking to someone... She came up a few minutes later and was just a train wreck... she is back down in her layer right now sulking... I actually feel in control and confident and moving on with my life, making plans to have some fun.


----------



## Grayson

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Ha! she threw me a curve ball this morning! She isn't moving out. We really can't afford it she says.


I know the conversation here has moved on, but I just saw this and it caught my eye.

What, exactly, does she mean by "we?". SHE's the one moving out. Not both of you. If SHE can't afford it, that's not your problem, under the circumstances.

As I suggested before, if she can't afford her own place, then the friend who was willing to encourage and assist her with her EA should be ready and willing to assist her with a couch to sleep on while she gets her "movin' out" finances in order. You still do not run a hostel for wandering wives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

*Re: Cold cold cold*

You'll love this... I just signed up for an 8 week yoga class in her yoga studio. I was already going to yoga, but this absolutely send her over the edge! 

She is trying to engage me in light banter tonight... having none of it! cool indifference...



MEM11363 said:


> Excellent. Some prep for the super volatile conversation(s) to come. No matter what SHE says about the R - the simple - SHORT and flat affect response goes like this:
> 
> Until you are ready to show total commitment to fixing our marriage - there is nothing to talk about.
> 
> If she asks what you mean - just chuckle. I mean it. Short laugh followed by utter silence. Do NOT explain what total commitment means. Do not justify it. Do not try to "sell" her on your position. You are the injured party - you make statements that define your boundaries. That is all. THIS boundary is "I will have nothing to do with my almost cheating W until she begins to make a sincere effort to work with me".
> 
> She MAY ask if you will attend MC. I think a muted "ok" is fine for that. LET her set it up. And in counseling let HER do the talking. You are fine. If in counseling she reiterates her plan to move out that is when you should hit her with the short "rules of engagement" including BOTH of you actively dating.
> 
> At some point she WILL melt down on you. Let her melt down - if she gets nasty just rotate 180 degrees in place and then walk away with your head up. This "says" in body language - I am turning my back on your crazy behavior. If she follows you go in a room and shut the door or if need be walk out of the house and go somewhere and TURN your phone off. The next time you see her - pretend nothing has happened.
> 
> And I love it that you are going out more with friends. LOVE IT.


----------



## Conrad

*Re: Cold cold cold*



MisterNiceGuy said:


> You'll love this... I just signed up for an 8 week yoga class in her yoga studio. I was already going to yoga, but this absolutely send her over the edge!
> 
> She is trying to engage me in light banter tonight... having none of it! cool indifference...


The yoga was a great idea.

But, you should schedule it at their main competitor.


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## MisterNiceGuy

I just realized that it was a mistake to do that... I think I can cancel... crap... I just won't tell her about it. I do need the exercise...


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## Affaircare

Not necessarily. Go to classes when she is not in classes (if she's Tues/Thur afternoon--go Mon/Wed nights). Be the class stud. Look and smell AMAZING. Really put yourself into it, be an eye-catching yoga student, be attentive, interested and interesting. But CARY GRANT in a gaggle hens, and be the "rooster" that they are talking about/whispering about. Two things will occur. 

a) Yoga is wonderful for low-impact fitness, so you will be fit, and you will be noticed. Be a really good yoga student!

b) It will get back to her. Someone from your night class will have to one day go to an afternoon class and will comment to the lady next to your wife "Have you noticed XYZ? Yeah he is AMAZING! And I heard his wife had an affair! Poor guy! Man what is she, nuts?"  

And YOU have to say ..NOTHING. Just be Cary Grant and do yoga to the fullest of your ability, with a charming grin.


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## Conrad

Affaircare said:


> Not necessarily. Go to classes when she is not in classes (if she's Tues/Thur afternoon--go Mon/Wed nights). Be the class stud. Look and smell AMAZING. Really put yourself into it, be an eye-catching yoga student, be attentive, interested and interesting. But CARY GRANT in a gaggle hens, and be the "rooster" that they are talking about/whispering about. Two things will occur.
> 
> a) Yoga is wonderful for low-impact fitness, so you will be fit, and you will be noticed. Be a really good yoga student!
> 
> b) It will get back to her. Someone from your night class will have to one day go to an afternoon class and will comment to the lady next to your wife "Have you noticed XYZ? Yeah he is AMAZING! And I heard his wife had an affair! Poor guy! Man what is she, nuts?"
> 
> And YOU have to say ..NOTHING. Just be Cary Grant and do yoga to the fullest of your ability, with a charming grin.


As she solidifies her throne in the pantheon.

This is pure gold.


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## MEM2020

AC,
I really never want to have you angry with me. You are scary good.




Affaircare said:


> Not necessarily. Go to classes when she is not in classes (if she's Tues/Thur afternoon--go Mon/Wed nights). Be the class stud. Look and smell AMAZING. Really put yourself into it, be an eye-catching yoga student, be attentive, interested and interesting. But CARY GRANT in a gaggle hens, and be the "rooster" that they are talking about/whispering about. Two things will occur.
> 
> a) Yoga is wonderful for low-impact fitness, so you will be fit, and you will be noticed. Be a really good yoga student!
> 
> b) It will get back to her. Someone from your night class will have to one day go to an afternoon class and will comment to the lady next to your wife "Have you noticed XYZ? Yeah he is AMAZING! And I heard his wife had an affair! Poor guy! Man what is she, nuts?"
> 
> And YOU have to say ..NOTHING. Just be Cary Grant and do yoga to the fullest of your ability, with a charming grin.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AC, I think you might be on to something... I'm always the only guy in there and I either get looks like WTF are you doing here? Or, oohh who is that?!?! Most of those women are fit as hell and they are wearing skin tight clothes! She goes early morning and this is in the afternoon. I won't tell her but word will trickle down quickly I'm sure... and if things go bad, I have plenty of dating opportunities there!



Affaircare said:


> Not necessarily. Go to classes when she is not in classes (if she's Tues/Thur afternoon--go Mon/Wed nights). Be the class stud. Look and smell AMAZING. Really put yourself into it, be an eye-catching yoga student, be attentive, interested and interesting. But CARY GRANT in a gaggle hens, and be the "rooster" that they are talking about/whispering about. Two things will occur.
> 
> a) Yoga is wonderful for low-impact fitness, so you will be fit, and you will be noticed. Be a really good yoga student!
> 
> b) It will get back to her. Someone from your night class will have to one day go to an afternoon class and will comment to the lady next to your wife "Have you noticed XYZ? Yeah he is AMAZING! And I heard his wife had an affair! Poor guy! Man what is she, nuts?"
> 
> And YOU have to say ..NOTHING. Just be Cary Grant and do yoga to the fullest of your ability, with a charming grin.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

My wife is pretty sloppy with her computer. She always leaves it on and doesn't password protect it. So, she is putting the kids to bed about 15 minutes ago and my office is next to hers so I just peaked in there again and her computer is wide open. I checked her email to see what's going on and nothing much but talk with people about our business, something about calling the therapist tomorrow at 3pm, not sure what that is but is nothing I'm worried about. I looked at her google search history and she has been looking up things like "can a relationship survive and affair" kind of stuff.

One question I have you for guys is, can someone like my wife bounce back quicker if the affair was short say only a couple of months vs. one that has gone on for years? 

She has been trying to engage me all night with laughing and light banter. It's hard to keep up the face and I had to leave the room a few times because she is bugging me and she probably think she can just be herself and we'll just be back where we were a couple of months ago. We can never go back to the place we were. It will obviously be a better place if the two of us move forward together. Two major things have happened. I found out I was a "Nice Guy" and she had an affair. I'm juggling two things at once, trying to Man Up and at the same time manage my wife who just had an affair blow up on her 4 days ago... I think I'd be in real deep doo doo if I had read the book a couple of times before D-Day and of course if I hadn't found this website. I know it's far from over, but I want to thank everyone for being there for me. I don't think I could've gotten through the past week or so without you all!


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## Affaircare

I have good news for you MNG. I know for a fact that a woman CAN bounce back from a short affair, because I was a woman who HAD an affair myself in my past! Yeah I knew better, and yeah I bounced back from it and look where I am now. So nothing personal but if I can do it, she can too. She has it within her ability to do it--the question really is: WILL SHE DECIDE TO DO IT? 

If she does make the choice to accept responsibility for what she chose and admit what she did was wrong--and then do the work with you to fix herself and the marriage--then honestly you guys have an EXCELLENT choice of recovering. If on the other hand, she makes the choice to continue to blame others and deflect responsibility--then I would have to be honest and say you have an excellent choice of meeting a very lucky, wiser woman who will understand and be happy loving a man who is not a Nice Guy.


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## MEM2020

Just remember something. 

If you choose to engage in friendly talk and let her pretend this all never happened, it WILL happen again. You need to stay the course or you are going to be right back in an angry, tense, sexless marriage. If my W wasn't willing to STEP UP and repair after doing something like this, after a few months of frozen silence I would file. 

Something has to give here. And it cannot be you. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> My wife is pretty sloppy with her computer. She always leaves it on and doesn't password protect it. So, she is putting the kids to bed about 15 minutes ago and my office is next to hers so I just peaked in there again and her computer is wide open. I checked her email to see what's going on and nothing much but talk with people about our business, something about calling the therapist tomorrow at 3pm, not sure what that is but is nothing I'm worried about. I looked at her google search history and she has been looking up things like "can a relationship survive and affair" kind of stuff.
> 
> One question I have you for guys is, can someone like my wife bounce back quicker if the affair was short say only a couple of months vs. one that has gone on for years?
> 
> She has been trying to engage me all night with laughing and light banter. It's hard to keep up the face and I had to leave the room a few times because she is bugging me and she probably think she can just be herself and we'll just be back where we were a couple of months ago. We can never go back to the place we were. It will obviously be a better place if the two of us move forward together. Two major things have happened. I found out I was a "Nice Guy" and she had an affair. I'm juggling two things at once, trying to Man Up and at the same time manage my wife who just had an affair blow up on her 4 days ago... I think I'd be in real deep doo doo if I had read the book a couple of times before D-Day and of course if I hadn't found this website. I know it's far from over, but I want to thank everyone for being there for me. I don't think I could've gotten through the past week or so without you all!


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## MisterNiceGuy

On one level we have to talk about the kids, money, business but it's all matter of fact, no nicey nicey... no smiles. The hardest part of the day is sitting down to dinner and afterwards when we are all together. I think what I need to do is just sit down with the kids and watch some TV until bed time. Not my ideal, but it keeps my mind busy.

She is the one smiling and trying to get on with things. Not always though, she is not engaging me all the time. She vacillates between silent treatment and light banter. Just coldness and indifference from me. There will be no getting on with things until we have capitulation from her. I don't know if I can keep this up for months... I'd go insane. Maybe a month or so... I honestly don't think she'll make it through a whole week without a breakdown...

I swear to god I heard her on the phone yesterday. I wonder if she got a throwaway phone. She has been known to stomp around and talk to herself when she is really pissed off at something. I checked the cell phone records and there wasn't anything. She was very visibly upset when I came home yesterday afternoon.

Took my wedding ring off, I bet she notices today but I don't think she'll say anything to me. 



MEM11363 said:


> Just remember something.
> 
> If you choose to engage in friendly talk and let her pretend this all never happened, it WILL happen again. You need to stay the course or you are going to be right back in an angry, tense, sexless marriage. If my W wasn't willing to STEP UP and repair after doing something like this, after a few months of frozen silence I would file.
> 
> Something has to give here. And it cannot be you.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

She just got up and we were both making coffee... I sat down to the computer and checked email and the cat jumps into the seat next to me. She says "I see you have your friend next to you!" with a big smile and I just look at her like she has two heads... she say "Oh, ok" went down to her lair... it's really tough not to engage...


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## Powerbane

You really need to search for that throw-away phone!!


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## bluesky

"a loyal *****"


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## bluesky

haha...it was blocked 

"a loyal Kitty Kat"


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## MisterNiceGuy

Just had a little tif with her... she came back upstairs and wanted to chat about something she thought I might be interested in. I didn't turn towards her and barely acknowledged her presence. She gets p!ssed off and stomps back downstairs and comes back up and says why aren't you talking to me! I just said, I am so pissed off at you, I can barely look at you! She said "Ok, Ok, I hear that" and I left the room... I know you all told me not to say anything, but I felt I just had to get the message across that I am extreme p!ssed off at her. Now she knows...


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## MisterNiceGuy

I am starting to move beyond this snooping thing... what's the point? Is this all for the divorce courts if we end up there? Is it just to get a leg up on her in our battle for control? What would I do with a throw away phone anyway? I would be better served with key logging software and VA recorders... but still all this snooping is driving me nuts.



Powerbane said:


> You really need to search for that throw-away phone!!


----------



## Powerbane

Then again - maybe she's starting to crack and talking to herself. 

Probably trying to figure out to save face without having to apologize or show remorse. I know you won't accept that solution anyway. I agree a VAR or 2 and keylogger will work better.


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## nice777guy

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I am starting to move beyond this snooping thing... what's the point? Is this all for the divorce courts if we end up there? Is it just to get a leg up on her in our battle for control? What would I do with a throw away phone anyway? I would be better served with key logging software and VA recorders... but still all this snooping is driving me nuts.


My understanding is that the snooping is for you. You're dealing with a liar who isn't sure what she really wants.

I don't think that cheating or lying or anything you would get from a keylogger would help you at all in court. Cheating really isn't in issue in modern divorce.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Powerbane said:


> I agree a VAR or 2 and keylogger will work better.


Again, what am I going to do with this information I gather? Is it just for me to know what is going on for myself? Or, do you think I need it for the divorce court? And if I find she is still in contact with the OM? What am I going to do with that? We are essentially separated in the same house. While I doubt she will try anything with him here at the house, she could go sneaking around. The big test will be when he gets back next week from his vacation. But again, I really need to do my own thing until she capitulates (or not). Just get on with my life...


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## IanIronwood

She is starting to crack. And the longer and firmer you stay the course, the better off you'll be. 

Explaining your anger to her is acceptable, I think, as long as you show nothing emotionally invested. And you'd be surprised how long you can keep it up. One of those great masculine strengths we get ragged on about all the time is perserverence, the ability to soldier on even when every part of us is screaming at us to relent. She hasn't even cried yet -- you have a long way to go. Better be prepared for it.

In traditional male-oriented terms, think of this as your mission: to utterly transform yourself into a superior man without any input from her. She's lost the right to criticize, she's lost the right to praise. It's all you. The yoga was a great stroke, and I'm glad to see about the ring, but I think you should up the ante. If you're clean-shaven, grow a beard or mustache, and if you have one, shave it. It's a little thing, but it drives home that you are un-coupling from her.


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Again, what am I going to do with this information I gather? Is it just for me to know what is going on for myself? Or, do you think I need it for the divorce court? And if I find she is still in contact with the OM? What am I going to do with that? We are essentially separated in the same house. While I doubt she will try anything with him here at the house, she could go sneaking around. The big test will be when he gets back next week from his vacation. But again, I really need to do my own thing until she capitulates (or not). Just get on with my life...


It's not about divorce court, it's about gathering intelligence on the opposition. You can do an awful lot with that intelligence, but the point is to know what's on her mind and keep from being surprised by any of the dramatic crap she's about to pull to try to get your attention. At this point the OM is rapidly fading in importance in her mind, and no doubt his wife is on him like sticky on grits, but knowing who she's talking to and what she's saying can give you insights as to her own strategy. More importantly, it keeps you from getting caught off guard by her. 

My opinion, of course. But like it or not, you are in opposition with her, and when is it a bad idea to know what your opposition is thinking?


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## Deejo

Honestly? Right now you don't need to snoop. You don't. It is crystal clear where things stand. 

The snooping you HAD been doing is what has led you to this moment. It provided you with the depth of deception and the truth of where her head was really at.

She isn't interested in reconciling. Not now. She is still invested in TOM, and not nearly ready to give that fantasy up. If anything, she may try to pursue it harder to deal with the fact that she feels like the world is coming apart.

NOT wanting to snoop actually says a good deal about where you are at. That you are moving towards accepting and dealing with the circumstances as they are.

Your wife is in an affair, emotional, physical, doesn't really matter - she is fully invested in someone that is not her husband. You know this. All snooping will do at this point, is reinforce what you already know.


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## Powerbane

Ok - you have a plan! 

The VAR would only be to gather more intel - but if you feel you don't need it - ok 

As far as contact with OM - you can appraoch her with - if you want to continue the affair - fine - but not blatantly in front of me in our home in front of the children. She needs to move.


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I am starting to move beyond this snooping thing... what's the point? Is this all for the divorce courts if we end up there? Is it just to get a leg up on her in our battle for control? What would I do with a throw away phone anyway? I would be better served with key logging software and VA recorders... but still all this snooping is driving me nuts.


I agree with you.

Overcoming the urge to snoop is a powerful step.

If she catches you snooping, what message does that send?

PLENTY of time to do that if necessary later on.


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## MisterNiceGuy

The saga continues this morning... she came up to me about an hour after I told her I was so mad at her that I can barely speak to her. She said "what can I do to make this easier?". I said what you guys told me I needed from her, A heartfelt apology, total commitment to the the marriage. I don't need it right away, but if you want to stay in this house that's what I need to move forward... She said OK and went back downstairs...


----------



## AFEH

My vote is to carry on snooping. It’s done wonders for me to know that my stbx has been singing different songs to different people and to know that even after 12 months separation she is still lying to me. Even just a few days ago I got an email expressing her love for me but because I snooped I know it had lies in it.

She’d have a chance of getting back with me, I’d at least sincerely consider taking her back, but to do that she’d have to be totally open and honest with me. I can take the truth, I can’t take lies and deceits and I know she cannot be open and honest with me. Not because of me, but because of the way she is.

Bob


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## alphaomega

MNG. 

Yes, the snooping will drive you crazy, and it's a show of your own personal strength if you stop.

I was the same way, too. Then, there came a point where I felt that snooping more wasn't telling me anything I didn't already know. Besides, how many times do you need to see the words.." I want to give you the best BJ you ever had, baby!"

Eventually, that kind of sh?t just wears you down. Plus, I felt the snooping was consuming me and becoming an obsession.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eagleclaw

I'm in the camp of you already know what you need to know. The snooping is only going to consume you, and keep you actively focused on her, rather than on yourself. 

She is asking what she can do. Well where things stand is she is interested in someone else, she is not interested in you, and she was moving out. Therefore my response would have been "based on these facts you can pack your things and get focused on expiditing your exit".

She hasn't given you any new information to counter these last statements so I would definately suggest she get on with it.

Plus if I read a line of my wife wanting to give another man a BJ - especially if I wasn't getting them - I wouldn't be able to EVER reconcile from that.


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## MisterNiceGuy

EC, you are 100% correct. She just emailed me (from downstairs) and said that she has no intention of reconciliation. She wants to move out as soon as she gets a job. The marriage is over. 

I told her that I'm sorry she so selfishly put her needs ahead of the marriage, kids, house and business. I need to get an attorney to start splitting things up, our investor needs to know about this ASAP so he can protect his investment and she needs to pack her bags as soon as she can and get out of the house... 

She seems very determined to do this, so I need to let her...



eagleclaw said:


> I'm in the camp of you already know what you need to know. The snooping is only going to consume you, and keep you actively focused on her, rather than on yourself.
> 
> She is asking what she can do. Well where things stand is she is interested in someone else, she is not interested in you, and she was moving out. Therefore my response would have been "based on these facts you can pack your things and get focused on expiditing your exit".
> 
> She hasn't given you any new information to counter these last statements so I would definately suggest she get on with it.
> 
> Plus if I read a line of my wife wanting to give another man a BJ - especially if I wasn't getting them - I wouldn't be able to EVER reconcile from that.


----------



## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She said "what can I do to make this easier?"


To me that means, how can I make this easier for me to stay here whilst still poncing around with this other bloke ideology...

I didn't take that question to be "how can we move on together and resolve this marriage"


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## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> she needs to pack her bags as soon as she can and get out of the house...


No time like the present, it could take weeks to find a new job.

Thats NOT your problem


----------



## SadSamIAm

The only reason I would want to 'snoop' at this point is if she changes her mind and wants to work on the marriage. I would want to know if this is because she genuinely wants to or if she changed her mind because the OM 'kicked her to the curb'.


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## IanIronwood

Pack her sh!t and point her towards the door. Give her until Sunday night to have a new place to live. If she's not even considering it, then there's nothing more to say. Make the call to the lawyer and start the ball rolling -- anything less isn't going to be fair to you or the boys.


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## MEM2020

Sorry man - hard as it is - sharing anger like that is a huge step backward. NOTHING brings my W out of a precipice dance faster than realizing I have flipped the master circuit breaker and slipped into non-violent sociopath mode. Seeing me "angry" - sadly sees to encourage her aggression. Don't know why. Don't care. I just know what works well and what makes things WORSE. Saying "I am super angry - translates to": I love you and am very hurt. While normal and true, the "ILY" part of the message makes her feel SAFE.

That said you don't have to be passive. Do not pack her bags as that is a move of anger not indifference. However you can matter of factly offer to help with her resume, and suggest she speak with your investor to get him teed up as a reference. 

And if you really feel the need - you can be aggressive - but NOT emotionally. And by that I think you can let her know that as soon as she moves out you intend to begin dating. (I KNOW it is not true - but this is not about truth - this is about reconcilliation and the sooner she sees you as ready to move on - the more fearful she will be of this little experiment she is conducting).

STOP SNOOPING. Accept that she is gone - and gone for good unless and until she implodes and tells you otherwise. At that point you can lay out terms for recon including transparency. 

BEFORE dinner - make a short list of good topics to discuss with the kids. AT dinner be up and friendly with them and have conversation. Be polite if/when she speaks directly to you. Don't be "cold" in front of the kids - just - low affect. She will be impressed that you can pull of "high functioning normal" in front of the kids given the current situation.






MisterNiceGuy said:


> Just had a little tif with her... she came back upstairs and wanted to chat about something she thought I might be interested in. I didn't turn towards her and barely acknowledged her presence. She gets p!ssed off and stomps back downstairs and comes back up and says why aren't you talking to me! I just said, I am so pissed off at you, I can barely look at you! She said "Ok, Ok, I hear that" and I left the room... I know you all told me not to say anything, but I felt I just had to get the message across that I am extreme p!ssed off at her. Now she knows...


----------



## eagleclaw

She's flipping back and forth between anger, fear, and sadness over having her affair exposed. But she not flipping to remorse. 

You need to be the one calling the shots now, not waiting for her to "make a decision". You need to be in the drivers seat now and push her to leave as she keeps lamenting to. Call it "calling her bluff" or call it "making her follow through" or call it "standing up for your own needs". It's all the same - you call the shots now.

Force the issue, make her uncomfortable with the situation - and don't relent until you see some very real changes on her part. Like total and complete reversal.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> The saga continues this morning... she came up to me about an hour after I told her I was so mad at her that I can barely speak to her. She said "what can I do to make this easier?". I said what you guys told me I needed from her, A heartfelt apology, total commitment to the the marriage. I don't need it right away, but if you want to stay in this house that's what I need to move forward... She said OK and went back downstairs...


MEM's right.

>>I know you all told me not to say anything, but I felt I just had to get the message across that I am extreme p!ssed off at her. Now she knows<<

And look what she did.

"Told her I am so mad" is not "cool indifference"

BTW - we all know this is really really difficult.


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
As difficult as it is for you - when we give you conflicting advice - I am about to add to that problem. 

My theme here is unchanged. Indifference - absolute zero. 

An ANGRY person says "get out" an indifferent person:
1. does not snoop - they don't care
2. does not push you to leave or stay because - oh yeah - they don't care

The "art" to this goes like so. When she makes a good sale for the business - you say "well done - good job" as if she were simply a long term employee. However you would act with a male who was your employee - you act with her. 

Same at home. When she does something good/extra helpful - you say thank you - as if she was a male employee whose job was to help you with those tasks. 

When you CHOOSE not to respond in a calm, sane fashion to her constructive behavior she correctly sees you as ANGRY/HURT. 

Men seem to have lost sight of how attractive, and intimidating (in a good way) an emotionally powerful man is. 





eagleclaw said:


> She's flipping back and forth between anger, fear, and sadness over having her affair exposed. But she not flipping to remorse.
> 
> You need to be the one calling the shots now, not waiting for her to "make a decision". You need to be in the drivers seat now and push her to leave as she keeps lamenting to. Call it "calling her bluff" or call it "making her follow through" or call it "standing up for your own needs". It's all the same - you call the shots now.
> 
> Force the issue, make her uncomfortable with the situation - and don't relent until you see some very real changes on her part. Like total and complete reversal.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> MEM's right.
> 
> >>I know you all told me not to say anything, but I felt I just had to get the message across that I am extreme p!ssed off at her. Now she knows<<
> 
> And look what she did.
> 
> "Told her I am so mad" is not "cool indifference"
> 
> BTW - we all know this is really really difficult.


True. It's one of the biggest challenges we ever face in our lives. Work/career doesn't even come close.


----------



## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> As difficult as it is for you - when we give you conflicting advice - I am about to add to that problem.
> 
> My theme here is unchanged. Indifference - absolute zero.
> 
> An ANGRY person says "get out" an indifferent person:
> 1. does not snoop - they don't care
> 2. does not push you to leave or stay because - oh yeah - they don't care
> 
> The "art" to this goes like so. When she makes a good sale for the business - you say "well done - good job" as if she were simply a long term employee. However you would act with a male who was your employee - you act with her.
> 
> Same at home. When she does something good/extra helpful - you say thank you - as if she was a male employee whose job was to help you with those tasks.
> 
> When you CHOOSE not to respond in a calm, sane fashion to her constructive behavior she correctly sees you as ANGRY/HURT.
> 
> Men seem to have lost sight of how attractive, and intimidating (in a good way) an emotionally powerful man is.


MNG,

If you get aggressive and push her out?

Then she's the victim.

If you snoop and get the goods on her - "how can she live with someone like that"

You get the idea.

The yoga thing is top shelf.

Stay with things like that.

Stay away from her.


----------



## eagleclaw

I agree with this also. I would definately maintain your composure and stay indifferent. I fully support that move.

My point regarding forcing the issue about leaving is simply that she has waffled back and forth a couple of times about moving out, and then staying, and then moving out and then staying. 

It seems to me, she is playing with your emotions and using this seperation to toy with you. If a wife has already stated she never loved you, and was interested in someone else, and is moving out - then I think by not responding to that you convey the message that you will accept that and be there should she change her mind. I woudl stay indifferent alright, but I would suggest she hurry up and do what she said she was going to do (move out) so you can move on. I would also point out that MEM is much better at this than I and I have taken much advise from him in the past and it was spot on.



MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> As difficult as it is for you - when we give you conflicting advice - I am about to add to that problem.
> 
> My theme here is unchanged. Indifference - absolute zero.
> 
> An ANGRY person says "get out" an indifferent person:
> 1. does not snoop - they don't care
> 2. does not push you to leave or stay because - oh yeah - they don't care
> 
> The "art" to this goes like so. When she makes a good sale for the business - you say "well done - good job" as if she were simply a long term employee. However you would act with a male who was your employee - you act with her.
> 
> Same at home. When she does something good/extra helpful - you say thank you - as if she was a male employee whose job was to help you with those tasks.
> 
> When you CHOOSE not to respond in a calm, sane fashion to her constructive behavior she correctly sees you as ANGRY/HURT.
> 
> Men seem to have lost sight of how attractive, and intimidating (in a good way) an emotionally powerful man is.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Quick update... Again I was down in my office and she left her door to office open so I had a look in her journal. She has no intention of leaving the OM, she wants to continue to see him. I guess I need to tell the OMW about this at some point and tell her that the OM will probably be super sneaky now.

She said that she needs to leave me. There has never been a connection between us (untrue of course) and that I have been walking all over here since we got married! (really?!?!? who was walking all over who when they had an affair?) She is still really in this fantasy that this OM is going to be her path to happiness for the rest of her life! It's really kind of sad to watch. I wish I could knock some sense into her just for her own good not even for our marriage because her relationship with the OM is just going to end badly.

You guys are right about this affair stuff. It will take months if ever to come to some kind of conclusion. It's so deep in her brain that it feels very hopeless that a resolution will happen.

To Do List: Find an attorney, talk to our investor, find her an apartment


----------



## MEM2020

*I know it hurts - I know it is unfair- I really do*

EC,
Thank you for your kind words. 

And I totally agree that her constant reversals are unfair. They are bordering on emotionally abusive. And it is also true that the ideal way to get her to STOP doing them is to not react to them. 

Option 1
She says "I cannot take it anymore I am moving out" 
He angrily says "make up your effing mind"
She thinks "Good he still loves me" feels relieved

Option 2
She says "I cannot take it anymore I am moving out" 
He turns and looks at her calmly and says:
- OK - this is what I would like us to do with the children. Lets sit down together and tell them that:
1. We both love them very much
2. You will be moving out of the house, but they will get to come visit with you at your new place on: (now you look at her and say - what schedule would you like?) 

There IS a hard choice to make - she will likely push for visiting them at the house. I think that is a mistake. It basically lets her totally control when she is with them/not with them and it turns the house into "our place" - while she maintains "her" place. I cannot explain or defend exactly why this seems so very bad to me, but it does. It will ALSO force her to keep to a schedule and by bringing the kids to a little apartment - force her to start thinking about what she is doing to THEM. 

If your W says - "I don't know, I haven't figured that out" just nod and say we need to tell them 5 things:
1. We love them
2. You are moving out and we don't know if you will come back to the house
3. When you are moving out
4. What your visitation schedule with them will be 
5. When they ask "why" you are moving out there are two parts to that answer:
a. The first is that it has NOTHING to do with them and the second is
b. And then you say - tell them whatever you think is best - I will support you

When you are ready for that conversation with them, let me know and I will support you. And then turn around and go back to what you are doing. 

MNG,
I know this hurts. I actually think you should go somewhere private and yell scream and yes cry. It is awful. It is unfair. I genuinely feel for you. I have been on the receiving end of short bursts of what you have now gotten for 3 months. Be prepared and be relentless. Accept that she is already gone. Accept it. SHE IS GONE. And then every conversation is based on that calm acceptance. 

Your W is going through intermittent endorphin withdrawal - it only takes about a week if she would simply stop all contact/thoughts of her fantasy. She HATES you for ruining the fantasy. Ignore her hate and it will fade. You have an opportunity here to set the gold standard in conduct for all the men who will follow in your footsteps. I think you have more strength in you than you realize. 





eagleclaw said:


> I agree with this also. I would definately maintain your composure and stay indifferent. I fully support that move.
> 
> My point regarding forcing the issue about leaving is simply that she has waffled back and forth a couple of times about moving out, and then staying, and then moving out and then staying.
> 
> It seems to me, she is playing with your emotions and using this seperation to toy with you. If a wife has already stated she never loved you, and was interested in someone else, and is moving out - then I think by not responding to that you convey the message that you will accept that and be there should she change her mind. I woudl stay indifferent alright, but I would suggest she hurry up and do what she said she was going to do (move out) so you can move on. I would also point out that MEM is much better at this than I and I have taken much advise from him in the past and it was spot on.


----------



## eagleclaw

Option 2!!!!!


----------



## SadSamIAm

I am thinking that it is time for more exposure (her parents, siblings, etc.). He has asked her to stop the affair, but she is continuing.

What does 'MEM' say?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

SadSamIAm said:


> I am thinking that it is time for more exposure (her parents, siblings, etc.). He has asked her to stop the affair, but she is continuing.
> 
> What does 'MEM' say?


So far I've told the OMW, my mother, her mother, her brother and my father. Her best friend knew about and she wants to talk to me today about it. I need to tell the guy who invested in our company next week when he gets back from vacation.

I actually surprised how deep this has gotten into her brain because it's all only within the past 2 months. Before that there is no email, texting or anything. I think their hookups where just chance encounters before that.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

*Re: I know it hurts - I know it is unfair- I really do*



MEM11363 said:


> EC,
> 
> Option 2
> She says "I cannot take it anymore I am moving out"
> He turns and looks at her calmly and says:
> - OK - this is what I would like us to do with the children. Lets sit down together and tell them that:
> 1. We both love them very much
> 2. You will be moving out of the house, but they will get to come visit with you at your new place on: (now you look at her and say - what schedule would you like?)


We had already gotten to this point before she was going to move out a couple of days ago. We didn't have a sit down talk with them, but they knew something about mommy moving to an apartment. When she told them she wasn't, the were very happy that she was staying in the house. My older son is acting out a lot right now. This is really going to make it tough for him.




> Your W is going through intermittent endorphin withdrawal - it only takes about a week if she would simply stop all contact/thoughts of her fantasy. She HATES you for ruining the fantasy. Ignore her hate and it will fade. You have an opportunity here to set the gold standard in conduct for all the men who will follow in your footsteps. I think you have more strength in you than you realize.


I'm not sure how long she will be thinking about him. It may take a couple of weeks IF he is not in contact with her. I find no evidence right now that they are in contact, but I could be wrong. At this point, I don't know if I care anymore. Dating sounds so much more fun than this right now!

If she hates me, she isn't outwardly showing it right now. She is just very sullen.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

OK, I'm pretty done snooping but I just wanted to see her journal one more time and then be done with it. It starts back on January 2nd and she is starting through a midlife crisis about what she wants to do with the rest of her life (remember she just turned 50) Lots of the same stuff she was telling me all along and although she didn't know it at the time, her fears about me were all based on me being a Nice Guy. My pandering to her, always seeking acceptance, no male friends, etc, etc (read the book if you haven't) There was actually a lot of talk about trying to fix the marriage and a lot of self-realization about what she really wants in life. All positive stuff. But as time goes on she starts to blame me more and more for her failings in life and wanting to get out of the marriage and at the same time an affair starts to crop up but only a couple of weeks ago does she start to talk about him...

One clarification to my previous post about her wanting the OM. I re-read that passage and while she wants to keep seeing him, she thinks that he might not ever contact her again. I'm sure she will try and reach out to him, but he is going to probably spurn any attempts. Just my feeling on it. I know the OM and OMW pretty good. She also worries about losing a lot of her friends since they all have so many in common. Maybe as was mentioned before the Oxycontin/Endorphin high will wear off in a week or so and she will start to make rational decisions. I will respect those decisions with more credibility when/if that happens... right now it's all fantasy based decisions...


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Quick update... Again I was down in my office and she left her door to office open so I had a look in her journal. She has no intention of leaving the OM, she wants to continue to see him. I guess I need to tell the OMW about this at some point and tell her that the OM will probably be super sneaky now.
> 
> She said that she needs to leave me. There has never been a connection between us (untrue of course) and that I have been walking all over here since we got married! (really?!?!? who was walking all over who when they had an affair?) She is still really in this fantasy that this OM is going to be her path to happiness for the rest of her life! It's really kind of sad to watch. I wish I could knock some sense into her just for her own good not even for our marriage because her relationship with the OM is just going to end badly.
> 
> You guys are right about this affair stuff. It will take months if ever to come to some kind of conclusion. It's so deep in her brain that it feels very hopeless that a resolution will happen.
> 
> To Do List: Find an attorney, talk to our investor, find her an apartment


A cent gets a dollar that your wife knows full well you are reading her journal and she wants you to see what she’s writing.

Bob


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: I know it hurts - I know it is unfair- I really do*

So sorry. She doesn't "hate" you. She is furious at you - just as a drug addict blocked from access to their drug is furious and aggressive to their "blocker". 

I don't think further disclosure at this point is helpful. 

IF you can pull off daily exposure with indifference I would stick with that. Yoga class - LOVE that idea. At least 2 nights "out" and "out" means that. I will be "out" on Thursday and Saturday nights. Do not explain who/what/where/why. If/when she asks just give her a smile and be silent. WE know you aren't going to have sex with another woman right now. But SHE is on COMPLETELY foreign terrain and has NO IDEA what you are capable of at the moment. 

Remember, you are indifferent to her. And she has lost all marital rights until you say otherwise. 

Go forth and conquer. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> We had already gotten to this point before she was going to move out a couple of days ago. We didn't have a sit down talk with them, but they knew something about mommy moving to an apartment. When she told them she wasn't, the were very happy that she was staying in the house. My older son is acting out a lot right now. This is really going to make it tough for him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how long she will be thinking about him. It may take a couple of weeks IF he is not in contact with her. I find no evidence right now that they are in contact, but I could be wrong. At this point, I don't know if I care anymore. Dating sounds so much more fun than this right now!
> 
> If she hates me, she isn't outwardly showing it right now. She is just very sullen.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> A cent gets a dollar that your wife knows full well you are reading her journal and she wants you to see what she’s writing.
> 
> Bob


Bob, now that I think about I think you are exactly right. Maybe not even consciously doing it otherwise it would be locked up tighter than a drum like her phone and computer right now! This might be some way that she has been trying to communicate with me on some other type of level. Now that I think about her last entry and especially the last several sentences sure sound like they are directed straight at me! Hmmm.... :scratchhead:


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> One clarification to my previous post about her wanting the OM. I re-read that passage and while she wants to keep seeing him, she thinks that he might not ever contact her again. I'm sure she will try and reach out to him, but he is going to probably spurn any attempts. Just my feeling on it. I know the OM and OMW pretty good. She also worries about losing a lot of her friends since they all have so many in common. Maybe as was mentioned before the Oxycontin/Endorphin high will wear off in a week or so and she will start to make rational decisions. I will respect those decisions with more credibility when/if that happens... right now it's all fantasy based decisions...


I’ve become such a cynic since discovering things about my wife. I reckon your wife is hoping that once she has her own place OM will join her. Maybe he’s even told her that.

Why on earth though is she leaving her journal open knowing that all you have to do is walk into her office to read it? What can be her motivation for doing that?

Bob


----------



## MEM2020

*snooping*

Needs to stop 100 percent. If she is monitoring his "snooping" it is INCREDIBLY reassuring to her. It is 180 degree the opposite of indifference. 

She is in the "fog". Ignore her. Ignore her. 




AFEH said:


> I’ve become such a cynic since discovering things about my wife. I reckon your wife is hoping that once she has her own place OM will join her. Maybe he’s even told her that.
> 
> Why on earth though is she leaving her journal open knowing that all you have to do is walk into her office to read it? What can be her motivation for doing that?
> 
> Bob


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Bob, now that I think about I think you are exactly right. Maybe not even consciously doing it otherwise it would be locked up tighter than a drum like her phone and computer right now! This might be some way that she has been trying to communicate with me on some other type of level. Now that I think about her last entry and especially the last several sentences sure sound like they are directed straight at me! Hmmm.... :scratchhead:


Yes. But why? What can be her motivation?

The only one I can think of right now is that all this is a serious, conspirital (OM, OMW, wife’s friend) wake-up call for you for one reason or another.

Either that or she is sending you messages she’s unable to tell you herself. But again, why?

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> I’ve become such a cynic since discovering things about my wife. I reckon your wife is hoping that once she has her own place OM will join her. Maybe he’s even told her that.


She never mentions anything sexual about him in her journal and when she talked to me. Only she says is that he's a great listener and they have a "connection". I think she can reckon that all she wants about him coming over when she has her own place. I think that is a fantasy that will never happen. I think this whole thing has scared the OM off for good. 



> Why on earth though is she leaving her journal open knowing that all you have to do is walk into her office to read it? What can be her motivation for doing that?
> 
> Bob


I was thinking pretty hard about this a few minutes ago. I know this is grasping, but several things are pretty big in my mind. 

Firstly, she never really talks about the OM until just three weeks ago and barely at that. Thing in her mind don't get hot until 10 days or so before I blow it up. But really no in depth discussion of her desires with him in the future. Just that she feels totally open with him like she's never felt for me. To be honest we have been more open with each other in the past two months than in any time in our marriage. Sometimes I wonder if she fabricated this affair to illicit this response out of me!

Second is that her journal has been laying around easy to read for the past two months and it wasn't until a couple of days ago that I actually tried to read to see where her head is at. Now that I have no trust for her, I don't feel bad reading it.

Thirdly her response to me blowing this thing up was a little atypical. She was mad for like 2 hours and that night she was calm and reflective and since has been fairly nice and chatty to me even today instead of this moody, depressed wreck I keep hearing about. I know it's coming when the endorphins wear off...

I know women are conniving, and are capable of great lies. Yet it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibilities that this thing is a fabrication to get all the things she talked about in her journal out of me and the OM was a good catalyst to get this response out of me.

Or, I'm delusional and I need to kick her a$$ out the door and start over again!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

OK, this is getting surreal! Hmmm... 

Do I take MEM's advice and just stop or keep reading for more messages from her??? There has got to be a reason she is leaving her journal for me to read! Either she is very sloppy... or she wants me to read it! crap, what to do?

I really don't think she's acting though. But then again I've heard her have conversations where I know she knows I can hear it through the door but then she's talking to the OM or her brother. I'm leaning towards sloppy right now, I can't believe she is that conspiratorial...



AFEH said:


> Yes. But why? What can be her motivation?
> 
> The only one I can think of right now is that all this is a serious, conspirital (OM, OMW, wife’s friend) wake-up call for you for one reason or another.
> 
> Either that or she is sending you messages she’s unable to tell you herself. But again, why?
> 
> Bob


----------



## eagleclaw

Even if she is playing you...... do you want to be the puppy that keeps jumping after the scooby snacks?

I would STRONGLY recommend you start following Mem's advice and quit playing the game by her rules no matter what her agenda is. Do you like the wife and the game you have had of recent? or would you like things to have the "chance" to change?


----------



## eagleclaw

In case your wondering, that would be to stop reading and snooping and become indifferent.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

EC, of course you are right! Like I said, snooping is over...


----------



## eagleclaw

Best of luck, I'm sure this has got to be very hard. Keep us updated! I'll be in hawaii for the next couple of weeks but I'll check back!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

One Step Forward - 

Got home from the store this afternoon. Wife was a wreck. Absolutely sobbing. I had known that my wife was going to have a phone in call to the therapist today. So that must have precipitated this new round of emotions. 

I felt real bad for her so I went over and just put my hand on her back and said I'm here to listen. She just started unloading... First she said that I (me) can't get my hopes up but she is staying here for the foreseeable future. She said the therapist really, really pushed her hard on several issues and he must've really gotten through to her. She said that she was never going to talk to the OM again. (I wouldn't say never since they live 1/2 mile away) But she has, in her mind, left him. 

I just listened without "fixing" or judging anything she said. She wants me to keep my distance and not do anything but be present. No pressure on the R. Any pressure will result in her leaving. She said I've manipulated her for so long that any kind of manipulations and she was out of here. The therapist told her she needs some time to figure out if there is anything between us or not. The OM really woke her up to what is possible and she wants that in a relationship. The whole time she is just sobbing.

So, my take away is she is staying for a while. Give her space. Listen if she wants to talk. 

I am going to continue on my man up journey and being more independent and work on my physical well being and not worry too much what she is doing. Just going to let her be for a while and when she wants to come to me for something, I'll be there. 

One thing she said is that I was gloating over the break up of the affair. I was not gloating, but I was angry. But like someone said before... my perceived gloating probably pushed her over the edge.

I actually have a tiny glimmer that there is something we can move forward on. I'll take that now and just sit here and have a beer...


----------



## alphaomega

Sigh.....

More like two steps back, in my opinion. I would be happy for you, except there are some red flags in her "demands". Yes, they are demands. You just handed all the power of the relationship back to her, whereas she now decides wether you stay married or not. Reread your own post, and you should see what I'm talking about. The OM woke her up? You've manipulated her? She needs time to figure it out? She also threatened you! If you pressure her, she's done? I mean, WTF!
Not only that! She didn't ask you if you even wanted her to stay, she just told you she was! She's still running Alpha on you!

And you agreed to these demands?

What you are not realizing, in my opinion, is that specifically because they are demands, there is no remorse in her words at all! Yes, she was crying. Because she realized you were serious, and that things werent all diamond castles like she thought they were in the way she thought this fantasy would play out. My wife cried all the time after I told her to leave. Made statements like "are we doing the right thing?". While at th same time still sending I love you texts to her boyfriend. My response was always..."well....I'm doing the right thing....for me. I have no desire to be second choice while you continue to play out your fantasy and decide if your boyfriend is going to pan out on you."

It seriously took riding this out until divorce lawyers were discussed before she became truly regretful!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

You are right of course... I took it as small steps in the right direction. She is committed to staying until it works out and committed to not talking to the OM. Two big ones IMHO. If that therapist can incite that type of reaction in her and get her to sit up and think about this stuff more often, I think we are on the right track.

My take away was that she is soften on some key issues and she needs some space. I ain't going boot her ass out of here and start calling lawyers now, but threatening it I think that did the trick.


----------



## alphaomega

Ok. I see your point. I'm no expert here either. Just be careful your not getting taken advantage of. I hope things are going in the right direction also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## adv

MisterNiceGuy said:


> One Step Forward -
> 
> Got home from the store this afternoon. Wife was a wreck. Absolutely sobbing. I had known that my wife was going to have a phone in call to the therapist today. So that must have precipitated this new round of emotions.
> 
> I felt real bad for her so I went over and just put my hand on her back and said I'm here to listen. She just started unloading... First she said that I (me) can't get my hopes up but she is staying here for the foreseeable future. She said the therapist really, really pushed her hard on several issues and he must've really gotten through to her. She said that she was never going to talk to the OM again. (I wouldn't say never since they live 1/2 mile away) But she has, in her mind, left him.
> 
> I just listened without "fixing" or judging anything she said. She wants me to keep my distance and not do anything but be present. No pressure on the R. Any pressure will result in her leaving. She said I've manipulated her for so long that any kind of manipulations and she was out of here. The therapist told her she needs some time to figure out if there is anything between us or not. The OM really woke her up to what is possible and she wants that in a relationship. The whole time she is just sobbing.
> 
> So, my take away is she is staying for a while. Give her space. Listen if she wants to talk.
> 
> I am going to continue on my man up journey and being more independent and work on my physical well being and not worry too much what she is doing. Just going to let her be for a while and when she wants to come to me for something, I'll be there.
> 
> One thing she said is that I was gloating over the break up of the affair. I was not gloating, but I was angry. But like someone said before... my perceived gloating probably pushed her over the edge.
> 
> I actually have a tiny glimmer that there is something we can move forward on. I'll take that now and just sit here and have a beer...


I'm not sure if capitulating so early will be in you or your marriage's best interest. 
In my situation, It wasn't until my wife moved into an apartment she could afford on her own salary ( I make about 7 times what she does) and I did not contact or respond to her for over two weeks, before she started to realize that her actions have consequences. Unlike you, my wife and I don't have children so I don't know how that would have changed how I handled things. But only you can decide what is right for you.


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
That was an enormous opportunity for progress and you totally blew it. Totally 100 percent blew it. 

Oh darling - I love you so much - when you cry I just can't help it - I am going to come rescue you. 

At which point she hammers YOU for sucking as a partner. 

Sorry but I give up. You do not understand how this "works". She basically totally dominated you by "crying". You knew she was going to cry. We told you she would melt down. YOU WENT TO HER. WTF???? YOU make HER come to YOU.

I really do give up. 

The good news is there are others here who will try to help you and they will give you solid advice. 

And I wish you luck as you truly are a nice guy. You deserve better, sadly to date you have not shown the strength to overpower your W emotionally which is what is needed to salvage your marriage. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> One Step Forward -
> 
> Got home from the store this afternoon. Wife was a wreck. Absolutely sobbing. I had known that my wife was going to have a phone in call to the therapist today. So that must have precipitated this new round of emotions.
> 
> I felt real bad for her so I went over and just put my hand on her back and said I'm here to listen. She just started unloading... First she said that I (me) can't get my hopes up but she is staying here for the foreseeable future. She said the therapist really, really pushed her hard on several issues and he must've really gotten through to her. She said that she was never going to talk to the OM again. (I wouldn't say never since they live 1/2 mile away) But she has, in her mind, left him.
> 
> I just listened without "fixing" or judging anything she said. She wants me to keep my distance and not do anything but be present. No pressure on the R. Any pressure will result in her leaving. She said I've manipulated her for so long that any kind of manipulations and she was out of here. The therapist told her she needs some time to figure out if there is anything between us or not. The OM really woke her up to what is possible and she wants that in a relationship. The whole time she is just sobbing.
> 
> So, my take away is she is staying for a while. Give her space. Listen if she wants to talk.
> 
> I am going to continue on my man up journey and being more independent and work on my physical well being and not worry too much what she is doing. Just going to let her be for a while and when she wants to come to me for something, I'll be there.
> 
> One thing she said is that I was gloating over the break up of the affair. I was not gloating, but I was angry. But like someone said before... my perceived gloating probably pushed her over the edge.
> 
> I actually have a tiny glimmer that there is something we can move forward on. I'll take that now and just sit here and have a beer...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM, you are right... good thing I had a 2nd opportunity tonight after I read your post...

She came to me this time, sobbing about how we weren't meant for each other, the OM "gets" me, we don't speak the same language, I can't trust you for anything, etc, etc. I'm sure you've all heard it before... But I understand where she was coming from.

I didn't offer any solutions, I didn't fix anything, I didn't seek approval for anything, I just took it all in. Not touching her. I just sat on the other end of the couch and I just listened and nodded for about an hour and finally she said she was exhausted and went to bed. I'm not sure we solved anything tonight. It was clearly an unloading of emotions that have been pent up for a very long time and I'm sure there will be more of it over the next couple of weeks... But I am hearing some slight softening to the message, not a lot but some. 

MEM, I really trust your advice, it's only been four weeks since I found out I was a Nice Guy and if it was only that, I'd probably be in a better place now, but I have to deal with a wife that's had an affair on top of it and it isn't making it easier on me. I could feel myself slipping after our first encounter today. Even she tells me that she wants me to lead and be the Alpha dog but it's been so long that she's been in charge she doesn't know if she can take a backseat... I think she can and I know with some time I can be the alpha. It's all going to take some time to figure it out. This stuff doesn't happen overnight.


----------



## IanIronwood

Dude. Crash and burn.

She got everything that she wanted. You got nothin'. 

She's in the house. She knows she can stay there indefinitely, or until something better comes along. She knows she can get you to do pretty much anything to save the relationship without even trying much. All these admissions and confessions are designed to make her the victim, make you the bad guy, and evoke your sympathy and love for her without offering anything in return, save the hope -- not promise, but just the hope -- that things will work out. She gave you a test and you flunked.

Don't mean to be harsh, but it has to be said. And you're right, this stuff doesn't happen overnight. But as long as she has you walking around on eggshells and melting every time she cries, you're being everything she wants you to be. She took command and you meekly followed. I appreciate the fact that you didn't argue or try to work everything out . . . but until you can say these words to her face and deal with the consequences, there's no way this will ever be an equal partnership, much less a happy marriage:

"That's not up to you any more."

As long as she knows you aren't seriously thinking of ending the marriage, she has the leverage. Heck, she'll even let you date a little, as long as it doesn't get too serious, because at this point she honestly doesn't see you as valuable enough for another woman to steal away. She's setting you up, dude. 

How can you speak the same language when she quit talking to you, and just talked at you?

How can she not trust you, when it was she who broke the trust in the marriage?

How can you be manipulating her when you're the one sleeping alone, terrified and anxious, while she gets to dally without consequence?

How can you GET her when she doesn't even know you, apparently?

Next she'll try to solidify her hold on the household, now that she knows she's not leaving. It will look all sweet and domestic at first, almost conciliatory and nostalgic, but it will be her way of re-establishing her territory. And then she can start marginalizing you. And freaking out any time you try to "work on the relationship" or "pressure her". She knows she won't be held to account. 

I'm not saying the battle's over, man, but you've got to step up your game. If she's comfortable and certain about her position, then she has no motivation to change until she's damn well ready to. 

"That's not up to you any more."

Say it with me . . .


----------



## greenpearl

MNG.

I am not a game player, I can just tell you what my husband did when he thought what I did was silly. Here I mean really silly. 

He would sit there, face very solemn, strict, no smile, no affection, he became a man I am scared, he would let me know clearly what I did was stupid and he doesn't like it if I act silly again. He wouldn't hug me until I showed sincere apology and promise never to act like this again. 

What your wife did is much much much sillier than what I did, can't even compare! 

All these men want you to be cool, you have to be cool. Your don't need to be cruel like throwing her stuff out, but you have to be cool. What she did is intolerable. 

The more mysterious and cool men are, they more attractive they are. 

When you are on a nice term, you can be all sweet and nice, but you have to let her know you have boundaries and she'd better respect that!


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
I think you just need to understand this situation for what it is. She NEEDS you to lead. She won't let you lead unless she is CERTAIN you are in control of yourself. If she can get you to let her do whatever she wants - SHE hates that. 

I thought you were going to stay indifferent until she shows total commitment to working on the marriage? Instead she told you she would think about working on the marriage but you need to walk on eggshells, because if you make the smallest wrong move she is gone. How is it that she gets to treat you like YOU cheated on HER? 

Go back to indifferent and stay there. She WAS testing you and it does not matter whether the test was concious or subconcious. She wants to know you are totally able to dominate YOUR OWN EMOTIONS. Think about it: She cried, you tried to rescue and her reaction was "You need to keep your distance or I am going to leave". I give her HUGE props for saying that. She meant it. She WANTED you to ignore her - despite the tears. 

As for the subsequent talk. If you are purely listening, AND what she is saying is balanced: 
- I wish I had done X and
- I wish WE had done Y and
- I wish YOU had done Z

I guess that is ok if she is being constructive. If she is working through it in her mind. 

But even if the style is "soft" if her message is "you you you were the problem" I would get up and just ask one question: "So what responsibility do YOU take for the state of our marriage"? 

And unless I liked what I heard I would tell her I had some work to do and say good night. Not angry just radiating a vibe of "disbelief" that she seems unable to take her share of responsibility. 

I know this is hard, but even SHE is telling you to be strong emotionally. She NEEDS that even if it means you walk by her without a word when she is crying. And she may flip out at you over that. Remember the magic phrase:

I am not sure what there is to discuss until you decide you are 100 percent committed to TRYING to make the marriage work





MisterNiceGuy said:


> MEM, you are right... good thing I had a 2nd opportunity tonight after I read your post...
> 
> She came to me this time, sobbing about how we weren't meant for each other, the OM "gets" me, we don't speak the same language, I can't trust you for anything, etc, etc. I'm sure you've all heard it before... But I understand where she was coming from.
> 
> I didn't offer any solutions, I didn't fix anything, I didn't seek approval for anything, I just took it all in. Not touching her. I just sat on the other end of the couch and I just listened and nodded for about an hour and finally she said she was exhausted and went to bed. I'm not sure we solved anything tonight. It was clearly an unloading of emotions that have been pent up for a very long time and I'm sure there will be more of it over the next couple of weeks... But I am hearing some slight softening to the message, not a lot but some.
> 
> MEM, I really trust your advice, it's only been four weeks since I found out I was a Nice Guy and if it was only that, I'd probably be in a better place now, but I have to deal with a wife that's had an affair on top of it and it isn't making it easier on me. I could feel myself slipping after our first encounter today. Even she tells me that she wants me to lead and be the Alpha dog but it's been so long that she's been in charge she doesn't know if she can take a backseat... I think she can and I know with some time I can be the alpha. It's all going to take some time to figure it out. This stuff doesn't happen overnight.


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## AFEH

Indifference or acceptance?

Personally I prefer acceptance. “Ok wife I accept that you want out of your marriage with me. I am not at all happy about it but you are a grown woman and you know exactly what you want to do with your life. So lets make a schedule for you to move out and I’ll help you in anyway I can”.

When my wife got seriously close to a supposed buddy, she said he was “easy to talk with” (I didn’t even know they’d had opportunities to talk by themselves) I bought her a flight ticket back to England out of her own money. She was back with me 2 months later.

Bob


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## AFEH

MNG. Maybe what your wife puts in her journal is what she wants you to believe but it’s not the truth, it’s a deception covering up something else.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> MNG. Maybe what your wife puts in her journal is what she wants you to believe but it’s not the truth, it’s a deception covering up something else.
> 
> Bob


Done reading the journal... I believe now that what's in there is some type of deception. Either she is purposely leaving it around for me to read or she is simply not truthful with herself. Either way, I'm done with it...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I have to say I did much better on the 2nd encounter than the first. First one I melted... should not have done that. 2nd one I stood my ground and while not 100% indifferent I was much more so. I got it now... indifference until Total Commitment... even then I will always have to be somewhat indifferent and get on with my life on a certain degree because I have to come out from her shadow and be my own person, which I started doing about 5 weeks ago...

One thing that struck me last night when she was talking... she said the guys that she really had a thing for "scared" her. I'm not sure what she meant by that. I'm sure a lot of women like that feeling that someone dominates them and puts some fear into them. I'm not that guy right now, but working towards control.

She brought up AtholK's blog last night about the Captain and the First Officer post. 

She has been the captain. She wants me to be the captain. She is having a hard time letting go of being in control while at the same time I am stepping up control of the household.

I'm not afraid to stand up to her anymore. She took me to the brink. I was ready yesterday morning to kick her [email protected]@ out of here. I told her so and that's why we probably made a huge step forward yesterday. I need to keep my anger (internally) and indifference on a low boil until she is 100% committed...

I think the next time she wants to unload on me, I will just stop the whole conversation and say: "Tell me something I haven't heard before. I'm tired of talking about this. I'm NOT talking about this until I have 100% out of you towards this marriage."

I'm sure it will p!ss her off, but that's where we need to be right now... 100% committed towards working on this marriage or she needs to leave.


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## greenpearl

Being cool doesn't mean being cruel! 

You won't lose anything by being cool to her anyway. 

If you start to act mysterious now, you might win her back. 

I never liked men who are yes yes yes to the women. 

They have no bones.

I don't like men who are pigs either. 

They are deceitful! 

A man who can control his woman and who loves his woman is a man I respect!


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## AFEH

I think the whole alpha male thing falls down because most of us men are “civilised”. In the animal kingdom it’s a very different story. If an upstart of a male tried to take over the pack, pride or whatever (read steal another man’s wife) the alpha male would see him off in no uncertain terms or the upstart would become the new alpha male.

But what can we do in these situations as “civilised men”?

Sure, the animal is still inside of us and we’d like to beat the crap out of a man who tries to take our wife from us. But we just can’t go there with that.

But we can take a buddy with us (not to help us beat the crap out of a guy who may be bigger than us but as a witness), stand in front of him and tell the man in no uncertain terms to stay away from our woman.

We may even think to antagonise him to such an extent that he takes a swing at us. But then we don’t retaliate. Instead we call the police and using our buddy as a witness get the police to press charges for assault. Assault is a very serious charge and the guy may well do time for it.

But what will our wife think of all this? First off she’ll know her husband is a man willing to step up to the line to keep her. Second she’ll have respect for the man inside her husband. 

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

greenpearl said:


> A man who can control his woman and who loves his woman is a man I respect!


That's what I'm working for... trying to undo years of following her around and it's hard work.

Still haven't figured out the mysterious part. Indifference = Mysterious?


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## AFEH

Surely “mysterious” is in the female domain? Certainly not in the male domain, at least in my mind.

Aren't alpha's crystal clear thinkers and communicators with their goals and objectives and as importantly with their boundaries? Especially with what they will tolerate and what they wont tolerate? Nothing mysterious there.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

MisterNiceGuy said:


> That's what I'm working for... trying to undo years of following her around and it's hard work.
> 
> Still haven't figured out the mysterious part. Indifference = Mysterious?


Being indifferent to me might hurt me. I close up to you. 

Being violent to me might scare me, I run away! 

But being strong, strict, your have clear boundaries, you let me know what I can do and what I can't do, you demand serious apology if I have done something wrong, I will respect you! If you let me feel that no matter what I do and you are fine, I will walk all over you. 

Your woman can be smart, can be opinionated, can be strong willed, but if you let her know clearly you don't tolerate silly behavior, she will know! YOU ARE THE MAN, YOU ARE THE LEADER! But this leadership has to come from a loving man! 

A man who is violent or irresponsible can't get this kind of respect no matter how alpha he is.


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## greenpearl

If she doesn't show sincere apology, then show no affection to her. 

My husband wouldn't even let me touch him last time I did something silly. He demanded me to talk to him in a serious manner, he didn't let me smile. His voice was harsh, his face was strict, he eyes were stern. He made sure that I knew what I did was stupid, he made me promise that I would never be this silly again. I showed sincere apology, I promised I would never act silly again. I let him take control of everything. Then he hugged me and comforted me.

It was a little turbulent in our marriage life, he got it in control right away!

Do you think I dare to act silly again? Hell NOOOOOOOOOO!


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## IanIronwood

MNG, sounds like you're starting to get it. If she came right out and said she wanted you to take control, then that's your invitation. The thing is, she can't do that and then get pissed off when you do, so quit worrying at all about what she thinks and feels. The journal sounds like manipulation at this point. Stay away from it. 

But hold her to account. She HAS to take responsibility for what she's done, or all of this Captain/1st Officer stuff is bull. 

Quit asking her how she wants it. Tell her how it's going to be. And if she doesn't like it and leaves . . . well, you haven't lost anything.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

As part of my being a Nice Guy I would follow my wife around the house cleaning everything as I went in hopes to please her. Now I've really slowed down my cleaning efforts and this place is a wreck. Do I keep letting fall apart? I've thought about bringing a cleaning service... The other thing is I do about 90% of the cooking around here and I'm really tired of it. I have to make things my wife will like and that doesn't include much pork or beef. I'm thinking the boys and I would like more steak and hamburgers around here...


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> As part of my being a Nice Guy I would follow my wife around the house cleaning everything as I went in hopes to please her. Now I've really slowed down my cleaning efforts and this place is a wreck. Do I keep letting fall apart? I've thought about bringing a cleaning service... The other thing is I do about 90% of the cooking around here and I'm really tired of it. I have to make things my wife will like and that doesn't include much pork or beef. I'm thinking the boys and I would like more steak and hamburgers around here...


You don't need to live in chaos, of course, but with everything else going on, the last thing you need is to be her maid. In fact, if she's not moving out, then she needs to contribute to the household. 

Make a list of all the household chores. Everything that you do. Figure out which things the boys should do, and then look at the list and pick which things you want to do. Everything else you make a list of and hand to her. Those are her chores, now. You do everything on your list, she's responsible for everything else. Since she wants a housemate arrangement, then that's the least she can do. 

It's not up for negotiation. It's not up for discussion. You aren't going to argue with her about it. You are not deciding, together as a unit, what the chores should be. _She lost that right. _ Now she gets a list of chores that she's got no damn reason not to do, laid out nice and neatly. You do the things that you know are absolutely essential, and leave all the crap for her. You're essentially giving her a sh!t test: _prove you can act like an adult, or lose my respect._ 

And she does her own laundry from now on. Period. And no dry cleaning or buying new clothes until the status of the relationship is resolved and finances are settled. 

As far as cooking, get what you want and enjoy! Throw a pack of Boca burgers in the freezer, and if she doesn't want to eat with you and the boys, she knows where the microwave is. If it's a nice day where you live, fire up the grill and do some steaks and put a football game on in the background. Heck, if you have a buddy you haven't seen in a while, invite him over without asking her or even telling her. Plan your own day and execute it without her input or approval -- and ignore her utterly if she tries to give it. 

And hopefully you haven't put your ring back on. If she asks, tell her you don't want to have an ugly ring-tan because its harder to pick up chicks and let her stew about it. 

And sure, it's hard to do that after so many years working as the junior member of the team and making sure what you did was okay with her. OVER. Even if it's hard, "fake it 'till you make it'. That's your house that you are allowing her to live in until she finds a job and an apartment. You do what you want in your own house. I mean, what's she gonna do, _cut you off?_ :rofl:

If you're going to captain this ship, be the damn Captain. 

And Captains eat steak.


----------



## Conrad

Sadly, if she cries about it, he'll capitulate.


----------



## Deejo

The moment you stop thinking about making changes in the context of saving your marriage, and instead make them in the context of recovering yourself, who you are, who you want to be as a man, a father, and a husband is the moment everything changes. That is the moment you will 'get it'.

I'm not trying to be either cryptic or critical. It simply 'is'.

You will know you have made the transition when you are invested in what you are doing and how you are feeling - and not in what she is doing and how she is feeling. You aren't there yet. And there is nothing wrong with that. It simply makes one outcome far more likely than the other.

Be accountable to yourself and your children. It's that simple right now.

You don't have a marriage. Not now. Stop trying to save it. All this talk of showing love, respect, compassion? It doesn't serve you or your goal. The moment you are truly prepared to let it go ... you will know. And she will know too. 

And at that moment, lots of things become possible - and you will be prepared to embrace whatever those possibilities may be.

I know how difficult and painful this is.


----------



## IanIronwood

Response: "Don't you have some chores to do?"


----------



## IanIronwood

Deejo said:


> The moment you stop thinking about making changes in the context of saving your marriage, and instead make them in the context of recovering yourself, who you are, who you want to be as a man, a father, and a husband is the moment everything changes. That is the moment you will 'get it'.
> 
> I'm not trying to be either cryptic or critical. It simply 'is'.
> 
> You will know you have made the transition when you are invested in what you are doing and how you are feeling - and not in what she is doing and how she is feeling. You aren't there yet. And there is nothing wrong with that. It simply makes one outcome far more likely than the other.
> 
> Be accountable to yourself and your children. It's that simple right now.
> 
> You don't have a marriage. Not now. Stop trying to save it. All this talk of showing love, respect, compassion? It doesn't serve you or your goal. The moment you are truly prepared to let it go ... you will know. And she will know too.
> 
> And at that moment, lots of things become possible - and you will be prepared to embrace whatever those possibilities may be.
> 
> I know how difficult and painful this is.


Outstanding advice, and that's the core of this. You have to stand up and quit worrying about her opinion and her feelings and everything else and move on. It's YOUR game, not hers, and certainly not the two of you together. "Free your mind and your @$$ will follow". Once you've convinced yourself of this, then it won't matter one way or another what she does.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Yes, it's hard to reverse years of behavior. I simply have to stop thinking about her in the context of what I do and just do what I want. It's a very hard habit to break.

Funny thing today... I wanted to take the kids to a movie today and she was going to do her own thing. As we are walking out the door she has decided that she wants to be with us... Hmmm... She said, "can I come along?" so we all four are going to see a movie this afternoon... 



Deejo said:


> The moment you stop thinking about making changes in the context of saving your marriage, and instead make them in the context of recovering yourself, who you are, who you want to be as a man, a father, and a husband is the moment everything changes. That is the moment you will 'get it'.
> 
> I'm not trying to be either cryptic or critical. It simply 'is'.
> 
> You will know you have made the transition when you are invested in what you are doing and how you are feeling - and not in what she is doing and how she is feeling. You aren't there yet. And there is nothing wrong with that. It simply makes one outcome far more likely than the other.
> 
> Be accountable to yourself and your children. It's that simple right now.
> 
> You don't have a marriage. Not now. Stop trying to save it. All this talk of showing love, respect, compassion? It doesn't serve you or your goal. The moment you are truly prepared to let it go ... you will know. And she will know too.
> 
> And at that moment, lots of things become possible - and you will be prepared to embrace whatever those possibilities may be.
> 
> I know how difficult and painful this is.


----------



## F-102

Sounds like the OM wanted to be with her, but his W found out, so he had to back out at the last minute.

How's it feel being second choice now?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

OM is out of town on vacation... I think she truly wanted to spend time with us...

But it went pretty badly, or I should it got bad when we got home. She was pissed. She came into my office and started into me about not being nice to her, not respecting her, not holding doors open for her, walking all over her!

I said she didn't respect me when she went outside the marriage with another guy. She said I wasn't there for her the past 3 years. She wants out again, but has nowhere to move.

I told her I wanted her out right now and I was willing to back her bags. She said there wasn't any money to move her out. She threatened me with the break up of my company if I pushed her out. I said I'm fine with that let's go! I'm calling a lawyer right now and let's start the process and she said that terrified the sh!t out of her that I might do that. I'm thinking to myself I have her now! She stomped off to her office and is on the phone with someone, probably her mother or best friend...

I'm getting my backbone. I told her she has no remorse over this whole thing and she said she was very sorry that it happened but she is not sorry for me because of what I've put her through the past 3 years. I've not been there for her and the family financially, which is kind of true, but I'm stepping it up now. I'm going to push her to brink and make her blink... I'm tired of her trying to demand things from me and then not change anything! Argh!!!!


----------



## greenpearl

She got pissed that you were not nice to her? She still wants to be babied? 

Funny! 

She should be grateful that you let her go with you. 

She can demand attention from you, but she can't use cheating this kind of method, especially with her friend's husband. 

What you said is damn right. Be like that, then you will see that she has no backbones. 

She is using crying and feeling sorry for herself to manipulate you, you have to be aware of that, don't give in to that. 

She has no where to go, she'd better realize that. Stop acting proud and silly, be humble, be humiliated, apologize, then she can have your attention. 

To this point, you are not losing anything by being firm with her. She has to come to her sense. If she doesn't humiliate herself and be submissive, there is no point having her back!


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## alphaomega

MNG. Read my new thread. THAT is how you handle this sh(t!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Much better. 

She melts down so often. Very useful actually. Please screw your head on for the next melt down. The less words you say, the louder she hears them. 

Calm, totally in control YOU say: Until you are prepared to totally commit to the marriage, we have nothing to talk about.

And then shut the F up. Let her rant and scream for a bit and then leave without a word. 

And I am personally going to kick your ass if you say one more word to her about how you "feel". She has temporarily lost her mind. She even KNOWS THAT. She needs you to be the harsh, cold alpha who will not budge no matter what. 

So the lawyer and the business and all that. Good. But no more threats. Simply - use the phrase above. It will bring her around faster than anything else you can possibly do. 

And might I ask what prompted her latest melt down? Oh yeah, you were "indifferent" to her needs when you went out. How about that. Powerful stuff. 

The way this works. You hang brutally tough until she COMPLETELY FOLDS and hands you the wheel. And then over the next few months IF she is stable, you gradually share more and more control until you are partners again. But make her EARN it. 

If you were such a loser the last 3 years she should have left you. Really. Divorce is fine. Fuukkiinngg another guy while your H is trying to fix the marriage. NOT FINE.

Stick to that phrase and STOP having any substantive discussion until she comes to heel. 

My W mostly runs the day to day show here. She is good at it. But when she gets crazy - like yours - it becomes 100 percent the MEM show until I see clear eyes and hear a stable resting heart beat of about 60. 

Your W keeps begging you to show strength. Give her what she wants. I really think this marriage is fixable if you stop worrying about what YOU should do with her - and demand that SHE step up and come to you with remorse and commitment. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> OM is out of town on vacation... I think she truly wanted to spend time with us...
> 
> But it went pretty badly, or I should it got bad when we got home. She was pissed. She came into my office and started into me about not being nice to her, not respecting her, not holding doors open for her, walking all over her!
> 
> I said she didn't respect me when she went outside the marriage with another guy. She said I wasn't there for her the past 3 years. She wants out again, but has nowhere to move.
> 
> I told her I wanted her out right now and I was willing to back her bags. She said there wasn't any money to move her out. She threatened me with the break up of my company if I pushed her out. I said I'm fine with that let's go! I'm calling a lawyer right now and let's start the process and she said that terrified the sh!t out of her that I might do that. I'm thinking to myself I have her now! She stomped off to her office and is on the phone with someone, probably her mother or best friend...
> 
> I'm getting my backbone. I told her she has no remorse over this whole thing and she said she was very sorry that it happened but she is not sorry for me because of what I've put her through the past 3 years. I've not been there for her and the family financially, which is kind of true, but I'm stepping it up now. I'm going to push her to brink and make her blink... I'm tired of her trying to demand things from me and then not change anything! Argh!!!!


----------



## IanIronwood

Plus, it looks like you've discovered what she's really concerned about: the loss of security through the loss of the business. Your willingness to go to the brink just bought you more respect than a year of door-holding and politeness. That's telling. As long as she knows that you're sick of her crap and ready to walk away from the table, and she's got nowhere to go, she's got no choice but to consider her actions and maybe catch up a little on her regretting. Ideally, this will lead to her taking responsibility for what she's done. If she isn't willing to do that -- utterly and completely -- then you can't trust anything else that falls out of her mouth. 

I'm not saying that she's not worried about losing the family and the marriage, but she can't say that without revealing her own vulnerability at a tense time. But the fear about the business is "reasonable" in her mind, so she can say that without seeming to put herself in a vulnerable position.

Keep it up! MEM has the right idea. She has to fold utterly, no meet-me-halfway compromise. And the only way she'll do that is being utterly convinced that you're willing -- nay, eager! -- to dump her sorry @$$ and move on to something younger and prettier. But until you hear that capitulation, she shouldn't get squat from you, emotionally. Total freeze out. No compromise. Look for her to increase her "sweetness" dramatically, and then blow up explosively when you don't respond. Let her expend as much emotional energy as she wants, you must be unmoved. 

And while I can appreciate how tough times can make it difficult for a man to provide for his family, things are tough all over. That was a shot designed to hit you where you live, that is, about your innate drive to be the family provider. Every man feels that way, even in this two-income world. That's the equivalent of you attacking her because she let herself go over the last three years. It was a groin-shot, nothing less, and if you've taken responsibility for any perceived shortcomings for that time period, you have every right to call it out as such. Don't let her make you feel guilty about it -- that's not the issue here. Nor did you somehow "make" her cheat on her husband because of what you did or didn't do. She's trying to invoke your guilt, nothing more. You didn't force her to do anything. She needs to own her selfish acts and show true remorse, or there's not going to be any constructive progress.

Keep it up. Cold indifference. Every tear she sheds is a step closer to her utterly capitulating. She's still waiting for the "all clear" in your voice that tells her that things have gone back to normal. Make her work for that. Harder than she's ever worked for anything in her life. If she's not willing to impress you now, she never will be.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes yes yes




IanIronwood said:


> Plus, it looks like you've discovered what she's really concerned about: the loss of security through the loss of the business. Your willingness to go to the brink just bought you more respect than a year of door-holding and politeness. That's telling. As long as she knows that you're sick of her crap and ready to walk away from the table, and she's got nowhere to go, she's got no choice but to consider her actions and maybe catch up a little on her regretting. Ideally, this will lead to her taking responsibility for what she's done. If she isn't willing to do that -- utterly and completely -- then you can't trust anything else that falls out of her mouth.
> 
> I'm not saying that she's not worried about losing the family and the marriage, but she can't say that without revealing her own vulnerability at a tense time. But the fear about the business is "reasonable" in her mind, so she can say that without seeming to put herself in a vulnerable position.
> 
> Keep it up! MEM has the right idea. She has to fold utterly, no meet-me-halfway compromise. And the only way she'll do that is being utterly convinced that you're willing -- nay, eager! -- to dump her sorry @$$ and move on to something younger and prettier. But until you hear that capitulation, she shouldn't get squat from you, emotionally. Total freeze out. No compromise. Look for her to increase her "sweetness" dramatically, and then blow up explosively when you don't respond. Let her expend as much emotional energy as she wants, you must be unmoved.
> 
> And while I can appreciate how tough times can make it difficult for a man to provide for his family, things are tough all over. That was a shot designed to hit you where you live, that is, about your innate drive to be the family provider. Every man feels that way, even in this two-income world. That's the equivalent of you attacking her because she let herself go over the last three years. It was a groin-shot, nothing less, and if you've taken responsibility for any perceived shortcomings for that time period, you have every right to call it out as such. Don't let her make you feel guilty about it -- that's not the issue here. Nor did you somehow "make" her cheat on her husband because of what you did or didn't do. She's trying to invoke your guilt, nothing more. You didn't force her to do anything. She needs to own her selfish acts and show true remorse, or there's not going to be any constructive progress.
> 
> Keep it up. Cold indifference. Every tear she sheds is a step closer to her utterly capitulating. She's still waiting for the "all clear" in your voice that tells her that things have gone back to normal. Make her work for that. Harder than she's ever worked for anything in her life. If she's not willing to impress you now, she never will be.


----------



## greenpearl

I am not trying to disagree with any men here! 

I am just talking from a woman's point of view.

Once my ex told me, when a man cheats, he still wants to keep his marriage; when a woman cheats, her heart is already gone. 

She has no where to go, she is forced to stay, but her heart is not there! 

How can MNG become a man she adores and loves again, that's the tough part. 

It is difficult to get a woman's heart back when her heart is gone. This is from a woman's point of view. Prove me that I am wrong!


----------



## Runs like Dog

greenpearl said:


> when a man cheats, he still wants to keep his marriage; when a woman cheats, her heart is already gone.


Damn skippy.


----------



## Conrad

>>And I am personally going to kick your ass if you say one more word to her about how you "feel"<<

And I will help him do it.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

I've been quiet lately - but thinking about you.

It's clear you considered your wife your "best friend".

This is not how best friends treat each other.

Just a few more observations, as I cannot add to MEM's tactical eloquence on this matter.

I want you to think - REALLY HARD - about what the prospects are for a 50 year old woman with children to attract a "soul mate" and forge a new partnership.

At worst , she'll be viewed a cougar by younger studs who want to score with her - but nothing more than a cheap piece of ass. Of course, she's brought this on herself, but ces't lavie.

At best? She'll get a live-in relationship with some guy who won't really commit to her or her children. And, she'll live the rest of her days wondering if his lack of commitment means that he's likely to do exactly to HER what she's done to YOU.

Now, in your heart, do you know exactly what this means?

SHE IS DAMNED LUCKY TO HAVE YOU. IN FACT, SHE'S ONE OF THE LUCKIEST WOMEN ON EARTH TO HAVE IT AS GOOD AS YOU'VE GIVEN HER.

Grow some balls and quit acting like she's doing you some sort of fugging favor by talking to you.


----------



## F-102

Looks like I underestimated you-you are made of sterner stuff. Well played, sir!


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> MNG,
> 
> I've been quiet lately - but thinking about you.
> 
> It's clear you considered your wife your "best friend".
> 
> This is not how best friends treat each other.
> 
> Just a few more observations, as I cannot add to MEM's tactical eloquence on this matter.
> 
> I want you to think - REALLY HARD - about what the prospects are for a 50 year old woman with children to attract a "soul mate" and forge a new partnership.
> 
> At worst , she'll be viewed a cougar by younger studs who want to score with her - but nothing more than a cheap piece of ass. Of course, she's brought this on herself, but ces't lavie.
> 
> At best? She'll get a live-in relationship with some guy who won't really commit to her or her children. And, she'll live the rest of her days wondering if his lack of commitment means that he's likely to do exactly to HER what she's done to YOU.
> 
> Now, in your heart, do you know exactly what this means?
> 
> SHE IS DAMNED LUCKY TO HAVE YOU. IN FACT, SHE'S ONE OF THE LUCKIEST WOMEN ON EARTH TO HAVE IT AS GOOD AS YOU'VE GIVEN HER.
> 
> Grow some balls and quit acting like she's doing you some sort of fugging favor by talking to you.


That is most certainly the way to look at it all, the view to be taken.

Bob


----------



## Catherine602

Conrad said:


> MNG,
> I want you to think - REALLY HARD - about what the prospects are for a 50 year old woman with children to attract a "soul mate" and forge a new partnership.
> 
> At worst , she'll be viewed a cougar by younger studs who want to score with her - but nothing more than a cheap piece of ass. Of course, she's brought this on herself, but ces't lavie.
> 
> At best? She'll get a live-in relationship with some guy who won't really commit to her or her children. And, she'll live the rest of her days wondering if his lack of commitment means that he's likely to do exactly to HER what she's done to YOU.
> 
> Now, in your heart, do you know exactly what this means?
> 
> SHE IS DAMNED LUCKY TO HAVE YOU. IN FACT, SHE'S ONE OF THE LUCKIEST WOMEN ON EARTH TO HAVE IT AS GOOD AS YOU'VE GIVEN HER.
> 
> Grow some balls and quit acting like she's doing you some sort of fugging favor by talking to you.


Really is this what you think. This is the one of the worst things I have read on this forum in a while and hat is saying something. It has all the elements of what is worse about male thinking. First, the fear mongering for control.

A woman who has kids and who is 50 yo is garbage in the eyes of men therefore she should bow down to her husband for doing her the favor of keeping her around. No other man will want her. Got news for you, the fear does not seem to be taking hold. 75% of divorces are initiated by woman who are unhappy in marriage and wait to get out when their kids are under way. They are in their 40 to 50s. If they have no value why would they leave? They leave because they value themselves and they know what you do not, they are not ciphers when it comes to finding some to love and love them. I have aunts and friends of my family who 50 yrs and over and they are actually able to scratch together a man who is decent and get married for the 2nd time! Surprised are you? Open your eyes, you hate women and fear them and want control so, of course you see what you want.

Fix yourself, you are destined to feel the despair that you so eloquently describe for woman as you age. 

Broadcasting your kind of thinking actually backfires, there are thousands of men on this forum who still love their wives, even at the advanced age of 50 and still want to have sex with them. They complain that their wives are not inclined to indulge them, they have lost their desire to expose themselves to the vulnerability that sex requires. I wonder why these women lose their confidence, could it be the hateful ignorant comments by men who cannot control themselves or their lives let alone women?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Ugh!!!

I knew this was coming. I no longer post on this "theme" of the ugly demographic "tilt" as we age. And the reason I don't is actually simple. I think it far better to encourage people to:
- define and enforce their boundaries
- bring their A game
- if they dislike the outcome, and feel their partner is treating them badly - raise the stakes and keep doubling down up to and including separation/divorce

Being a "jerk" because you "can" is just very ugly. In this post however, it certainly appears that MNG's wife is the one who thinks she "can" be the jerk. I think Conrad was simply trying to level the playing field. Unfortunately this demographic tactic is not a good way to do that. 

MNG - I imagine you would not do this anyway, but just to remove any question on this point, stay away from any conversation with your W about her future prospects without you. She either wants to be with you, or doesn't. 




Catherine602 said:


> Really is this what you think. This is the one of the worst things I have read on this forum in a while and hat is saying something. It has all the elements of what is worse about male thinking. First, the fear mongering for control.
> 
> A woman who has kids and who is 50 yo is garbage in the eyes of men therefore she should bow down to her husband for doing her the favor of keeping her around. No other man will want her. Got news for you, the fear does not seem to be taking hold. 75% of divorces are initiated by woman who are unhappy in marriage and wait to get out when their kids are under way. They are in their 40 to 50s. If they have no value why would they leave? They leave because they value themselves and they know what you do not, they are not ciphers when it comes to finding some to love and love them. I have aunts and friends of my family who 50 yrs and over and they are actually able to scratch together a man who is decent and get married for the 2nd time! Surprised are you? Open your eyes, you hate women and fear them and want control so, of course you see what you want.
> 
> Fix yourself, you are destined to feel the despair that you so eloquently describe for woman as you age.
> 
> Broadcasting your kind of thinking actually backfires, there are thousands of men on this forum who still love their wives, even at the advanced age of 50 and still want to have sex with them. They complain that their wives are not inclined to indulge them, they have lost their desire to expose themselves to the vulnerability that sex requires. I wonder why these women lose their confidence, could it be the hateful ignorant comments by men who cannot control themselves or their lives let alone women?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Catherine602 said:


> Really is this what you think. This is the one of the worst things I have read on this forum in a while and hat is saying something. It has all the elements of what is worse about male thinking. First, the fear mongering for control.
> 
> A woman who has kids and who is 50 yo is garbage in the eyes of men therefore she should bow down to her husband for doing her the favor of keeping her around. No other man will want her. Got news for you, the fear does not seem to be taking hold. 75% of divorces are initiated by woman who are unhappy in marriage and wait to get out when their kids are under way. They are in their 40 to 50s. If they have no value why would they leave? They leave because they value themselves and they know what you do not, they are not ciphers when it comes to finding some to love and love them. I have aunts and friends of my family who 50 yrs and over and they are actually able to scratch together a man who is decent and get married for the 2nd time! Surprised are you? Open your eyes, you hate women and fear them and want control so, of course you see what you want.
> 
> Fix yourself, you are destined to feel the despair that you so eloquently describe for woman as you age.
> 
> Broadcasting your kind of thinking actually backfires, there are thousands of men on this forum who still love their wives, even at the advanced age of 50 and still want to have sex with them. They complain that their wives are not inclined to indulge them, they have lost their desire to expose themselves to the vulnerability that sex requires. I wonder why these women lose their confidence, could it be the hateful ignorant comments by men who cannot control themselves or their lives let alone women?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not at all.

But, a woman who cheats on a man who has worked his entire life thinking that she's his best friend?

You have no thoughts on what she deserves vs. what she's been given?

You can project all you like on to me. But, MNG needs to understand the the OM isn't a "soul mate" for his wife and he needs the confidence to act on it. The guy was/is looking for a cheap piece of ass. And, now that the OM's wife is on the case, he's no longer interested.

Catherine - these are facts.


----------



## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> Ugh!!!
> 
> I knew this was coming. I no longer post on this "theme" of the ugly demographic "tilt" as we age. And the reason I don't is actually simple. I think it far better to encourage people to:
> - define and enforce their boundaries
> - bring their A game
> - if they dislike the outcome, and feel their partner is treating them badly - raise the stakes and keep doubling down up to and including separation/divorce
> 
> Being a "jerk" because you "can" is just very ugly. In this post however, it certainly appears that MNG's wife is the one who thinks she "can" be the jerk. I think Conrad was simply trying to level the playing field. Unfortunately this demographic tactic is not a good way to do that.
> 
> MNG - I imagine you would not do this anyway, but just to remove any question on this point, stay away from any conversation with your W about her future prospects without you. She either wants to be with you, or doesn't.


Nowhere do I suggest he "tell" her this.

My post was designed to give him confidence not to "fold" under the pressure of her tears - which he HAS BEEN DOING.

But why should any of our better angels pay attention to the context of remarks, when the opportunity to get offended is so inviting?


----------



## MEM2020

Conrad,
You know how much I like and respect you. I know you didn't suggest he discuss this with her. If my post implied otherwise I apologize. 

He is simply in a bad spot and angry as he is - this certainly might seem like an appealing tactic. 




Conrad said:


> Nowhere do I suggest he "tell" her this.
> 
> My post was designed to give him confidence not to "fold" under the pressure of her tears - which he HAS BEEN DOING.
> 
> But why should any of our better angels pay attention to the context of remarks, when the opportunity to get offended is so inviting?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I'm back, been busy with the kids and stuff... Wife has them today while I work at our business. She is taking them to an Oscar party with a bunch of women tonight so I have the evening to myself. I should go see a movie or something. I might go see the King's Speech, she really wanted to see that with me before all this started. 

I did talk with her again yesterday after the first encounter. It was a more civilized discussion. I did say I am prepared to liquidate everything if it comes to that, don't mess with me and I really will. She was like what are you going to do for money? I said, if we liquidate everything I'll have plenty of money! Then she wanted to get back on the topic of how much I hurt her with my exposure of the affair and I wasn't going there. I did say that I am tired of walking around the house getting pissed off at her. I have softened my stance a bit today and she was very snappy this morning, but after church she was nicer when she walked in the door. Maybe Jesus got to her this morning... ;-)

Anyway, I'm letting yesterday sink in before we go at it again. She really needs to soften on our R or she needs to leave. 

@Conrad - My wife was my best friend and as part of being a Nice Guy I had dropped all my male friends over the past few years. I think I have one or two guys I can call if I want to do something, but both live at least 45 minutes away. But that is an area I need to work on building more male relationships and more outside interests that take me out of the house more regardless of what happens with us.

I wish I could explain to her that she would be so lucky to find a guy like me out there right now. I'm slightly younger than her. I really like her children (because they are mine!), we have tons in common (she knows this too). I am really attracted to her. I've lost 16lbs since the beginning of the year and I'm in the best shape I've been probably since we got married.

Serious deep conversations don't come for free anymore. I told her that yesterday that if she wants to talk anymore about this stuff I want full commitment out of her. I'm sure she will push that boundary soon again when she has another wave of emotions she wants to unload on me. But this time, I'm just putting up my hand and saying not until you come to the table and want to work on the R.

BTW, still have my wedding ring off. Can't tell if she noticed or not she hasn't said anything. She still has her's on...


----------



## F-102

Sounds like she's starting to panic. You didn't fold the way she wanted, she sees that this will not be her getting her way again-she has a real fight on her hands, and she never considered that after all these years, she may very well walk out of this empty handed.


----------



## Catherine602

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I wish I could explain to her that she would be so lucky to find a guy like me out there right now. I'm slightly younger than her. I really like her children (because they are mine!), we have tons in common (she knows this too). I am really attracted to her. I've lost 16lbs since the beginning of the year and I'm in the best shape I've been probably since we got married.


Lucky people never realize how lucky they are, so don't use her indifference as a measure of your value. Luck means a person gets something they have not earned. You wife does not recognize your value because she lucked out when you met. 

There is nothing you can do to convince your wife of your value, you have to act like your s**t don't stink, like you are all that, get some attitude edge. Her view of you does not really matter anyway. Your view of yourself counts over all else. You have to be certain of your value in your mind. 

You have had plenty of positive and true outside confirmation of the quality of man you are. Let that sink in, and don't cast your pearl among those who cannot value them. In other words don't sell yourself short, act like the valuable person you are and don't let your wife walk on your face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Catherine602 said:


> Lucky people never realize how lucky they are, so don't use her indifference as a measure of your value. Luck means a person gets something they have not earned. You wife does not recognize your value because she lucked out when you met.
> 
> There is nothing you can do to convince your wife of your value, you have to act like your s**t don't stink, like you are all that, get some attitude edge. Her view of you does not really matter anyway. Your view of yourself counts over all else. You have to be certain of your value in your mind.
> 
> You have had plenty of positive and true outside confirmation of the quality of man you are. Let that sink in, and don't cast your pearl among those who cannot value them. In other words don't sell yourself short, act like the valuable person you are and don't let your wife walk on your face.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is not walking on my face anymore... The way I view it right now there is so much baggage stacked around her about our past that she can't see over the pile. If the baggage was magically stripped away, she might see the shiny new me that is completely different than that guy she was having so many problems with before. That baggage is so heavy it probably won't ever move. I am still doing what I've been doing for the past few days, except with a brighter attitude. I've seen her actually change and be a nicer person in the past 24 hours. Not sure if it's because of me or my attitude or what. Not that I want her attention, it just makes it easier to get through the day if I don't have this angry b!tch staring at me all day...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

The weirdest thing. My wife got home from an Oscar party tonight. Completely sober. The kids were asleep and we just talked. Not anything about us just the mundane stuff of life for a good hour. No expectations or demands. Very refreshing after all we've been through the past couple of weeks. I hope we can continue more of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## less_disgruntled

MisterNiceGuy said:


> The weirdest thing. My wife got home from an Oscar party tonight. Completely sober. The kids were asleep and we just talked. Not anything about us just the mundane stuff of life for a good hour. No expectations or demands. Very refreshing after all we've been through the past couple of weeks. I hope we can continue more of this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cold? This is tepid, not cold. Yes she's giving up ground, but she keeps seeing how little she has to give up. How many days ago was she talking to OM? After you ended his marriage? When the Soviets finally won Stalingrad, did they get to Poland and then turn around again? No, which is why this post isn't in German. So I have to ask:

Isn't there anyone else you could have talked about mundane stuff with for like an hour? Because have you gotten an apology yet? Something like "I know I wish you had been ballsier and made me feel attractive but it was really wrong for me to straight up decided to destroy our marriage, set a terrible example for our kids, threaten your livelihood and their financial future, etc., etc., b/c I was kind of unhappy, i will respect your decisions and space and do what I can to win back the love from you that I showed I did not deserve b/c what I did was wrong and I want us to be stronger" etc.???

B/c if you did you forgot to tell us. And I read this entire thread without stopping, so maybe my reading comprehension sucks, but jesus, you really are a nice guy.

I was getting ready to call OMW back on like page three, scan all your wife's journal onto PDF, put that together w/ her emails, send it to her folks with a message like "B/c you raised her, maybe you can help explain to me what to do when she acts like a child", cut OM's brake line, call up your wife's best girlfriend (the one real partial to infidelity and who encouraged her through all this ****) and start to get awfully friendly w/ her, etc. etc. Seriously, if there was ever a time to get in touch with your Inner Sociopath, now would be that time.

Kids
You
Family/Friends
Women who aren't your STB estranged wife
Strangers
STB estranged wife

Until you get an apology.


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She is not walking on my face anymore... The way I view it right now there is so much baggage stacked around her about our past that she can't see over the pile. If the baggage was magically stripped away, she might see the shiny new me that is completely different than that guy she was having so many problems with before. That baggage is so heavy it probably won't ever move. I am still doing what I've been doing for the past few days, except with a brighter attitude. I've seen her actually change and be a nicer person in the past 24 hours. Not sure if it's because of me or my attitude or what. Not that I want her attention, it just makes it easier to get through the day if I don't have this angry b!tch staring at me all day...


That’s very insightful MNG with the “baggage”. It’s called bitterness and resentment, it’s all they can see and it totally blocks out the “good”.

Change and personal growth takes a while. But your wife’s baggage will keep you framed in her mind as the “bad guy with nothing good in him”. That is if you are not very careful no matter how much you change she will continue to see you as “the old you”.

I don’t know any way out of that but I do know that when we are so locked into dependencies (financial, emotional, sex, psychological, children, dreams of the future etc. and in your case “business”) with the SO they inhibit our personal growth.

The thing to do is to minimise and get rid of the dependencies as much as you possibly can. For example, your wife believes you are financially dependent upon her and she is “using” that dependency.

You’ve a very long way to go with this stuff. It’s certainly not a sprint but a marathon.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> That’s very insightful MNG with the “baggage”. It’s called bitterness and resentment, it’s all they can see and it totally blocks out the “good”.
> 
> Change and personal growth takes a while. But your wife’s baggage will keep you framed in her mind as the “bad guy with nothing good in him”. That is if you are not very careful no matter how much you change she will continue to see you as “the old you”.
> 
> I don’t know any way out of that but I do know that when we are so locked into dependencies (financial, emotional, sex, psychological, children, dreams of the future etc. and in your case “business”) with the SO they inhibit our personal growth.
> 
> The thing to do is to minimize and get rid of the dependencies as much as you possibly can. For example, your wife believes you are financially dependent upon her and she is “using” that dependency.
> 
> You’ve a very long way to go with this stuff. It’s certainly not a sprint but a marathon.
> 
> Bob


Bob, I'm just being me for now. As long as she isn't contacting the OM, I'm fine with just being here for now. I know that can't last forever (or even for a few days), but I am here now trying to get on with my life. I can't imagine a life where we go through a divorce and have to split everything up, it will be the death knell for this business and we'll have to sell off the house which is vital to the business. I mean that is the End Game isn't it? Affair -> Separation -> Divorce 

I honestly don't think she is thinking that far down the road and what it will mean to everything. The furthest in the future we have talked is her moving out when she finds a job. That was several days ago. That's it. In that conversation she said she'd support me and the kids with insurance and some money. BUT, if your ultimate goal is divorce, you are not going to do that. You need to protect your assets from the other spouse and start splitting up the household. I can tell you that I can't pay the mortgage keep this house without her half of the income that she could take out of the business. She has invested hundreds of thousands of $$$ in this business and since it's home based business I simply don't have the funds to buy her out. My investor, while stinking rich, probably won't have anything to do with this either and want his money out of the business too...

People may say there is no such thing as a mid-life crisis, but I'm telling you my wife is in the middle of a huge retrospective of her life right now. That involves reviewing everything in her life, including me, the kids, what brings her happiness and what she wants to do with the rest of her life. She had told me this much and I have read it in her emails and journal. Her reaction to our marriage not bringing her happiness was to go out and have an affair with the hopes that this guy was going to bring her happiness for the rest of life. I know, I've read it. She never admitted it to me, but I've read it. She is so resentful towards me for denying her lifelong happiness with OM that she can't see above the baggage. Still she is hell bent on bringing happiness to herself, that she is not seeing the big picture on how self centered that is. But she has always been self centered.

I am trying to seriously evaluate whether I want to be with this woman for the rest of my life of not. Right now I am saying not, but if I step back (strip away the affair stuff) I might go out and find another woman just like her (a bit younger this time!), that coupled with my children's needs to have their mother here and the business I think it's vital that we try see if we can make it work. I have said to her even before the affair blew up and she had agreed too a couple of times was a six month window. Give it your all for six months, then evaluate at the end of the period and see if we have made any progress. Then this affair thing blew up and here we are...

I'm deep in the middle of a 180 Degree Plan and also doing Michele Weiner-Davis Last Resort Technique How To Prevent a Divorce – The Last Resort Technique | Divorce Busting Now that the initial outrage is passing, I'm doing this and in the past 48 hours have seen some positive results. I know it takes a really long time, but that's where I am today.


----------



## AFEH

Believe me MNG midlife crisis does exist and it is very very real.

It significantly helped me to build a vision of what my life would be like without my wife in it. Doesn’t mean it has to work out that way, but at least you’ll know what your alternative futures may look like.

Bob


----------



## MEM2020

I get how "bad" the breakup outcome is. I do. What you don't seem to get is that every "crying" rescue, every "normal conversation" and every time you sit there with your W telling you why she has this HUGE wall of resentment for you, reinforces the notion that somehow EVERYTHING really is your fault. Even the EA. At some point you may understand this dynamic for what it really is:
Her: You don't deserve me
You: I don't deserve you
Background chorus: He doesn't deserve her

You have NO IDEA if she is in contact with the OM. And you will lose your mind if you snoop. So the only protection you may have from that is your W acknowledging the breach, committing to NC and committing to work on the marriage. All this stuff you "think" is helping, (being kind, supportive, talking) without her doing THAT, makes her think YOU don't believe you deserve her. 

Is that really the message you want to "sell" her on?

Being polite, friendly but completely reserved until she COMMITS is the only way to avoid that message. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> The weirdest thing. My wife got home from an Oscar party tonight. Completely sober. The kids were asleep and we just talked. Not anything about us just the mundane stuff of life for a good hour. No expectations or demands. Very refreshing after all we've been through the past couple of weeks. I hope we can continue more of this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

OK, it's slowly sinking in... You are right, there is no way I know for sure that she is not talking to the OM. I have a call with the OMW this morning to go over what happened.

OK, no more sit down conversations about mundane stuff until she commits.


----------



## MEM2020

Hard as it is. That is the most likely path to recon. 

As for a conversation about "her" feelings. I am not stupid. Of COURSE you are going to have to have a bunch of those. But they aren't constructive AT ALL until she commits to NC with OM, AND commits to working on the marriage. 

PRIOR to that, her listing all her resentments is something completely different. They are her slowly "selling herself" with you as the nodding audience, on the idea that YOU SUCK and she had every right to cheat, and is justified in leaving you. 

In the meantime without any look in her direction for approval show some leadership (physical, financial and parenting):
- Keep hitting the gym 
- Grow the business
- LEAD positive, learning conversations at the dinner table with your kids - ask them some challenging - age appropriate questions

When I ask our kids - how was your day - I get nada. When I ask them - "what do you think of the idea of national healthcare" we have a highly spirited and interesting debate. And I never "tell them" the answer. I just ask questions:
- What is good about this
- What is bad about this
- What has happened in other countries that have done it

And that topic may not be age appropriate - but plenty are. Hell I construct a scenario that causes a values "conflict" - keeping a secret vs. safety of a friend. Etc. 






MisterNiceGuy said:


> OK, it's slowly sinking in... You are right, there is no way I know for sure that she is not talking to the OM. I have a call with the OMW this morning to go over what happened.
> 
> OK, no more sit down conversations about mundane stuff until she commits.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I've already told her on Saturday that I CAN'T talk about our relationship until she commits.

I got on the scale this morning and I'm at 184lbs. I look great and feel great. I know she notices it too since she has told me so. We just finished one of the best months of our business. Things are really looking up there and I am taking over most aspects of the day to day from her. I just took over doing the bills which has been a long standing issue with me.

I love the idea about conversations at the dinner table. I am thinking up a bunch of topics right now...

MEM you are the best!



MEM11363 said:


> Hard as it is. That is the most likely path to recon.
> 
> As for a conversation about "her" feelings. I am not stupid. Of COURSE you are going to have to have a bunch of those. But they aren't constructive AT ALL until she commits to NC with OM, AND commits to working on the marriage.
> 
> PRIOR to that, her listing all her resentments is something completely different. They are her slowly "selling herself" with you as the nodding audience, on the idea that YOU SUCK and she had every right to cheat, and is justified in leaving you.
> 
> In the meantime without any look in her direction for approval show some leadership (physical, financial and parenting):
> - Keep hitting the gym
> - Grow the business
> - LEAD positive, learning conversations at the dinner table with your kids - ask them some challenging - age appropriate questions
> 
> When I ask our kids - how was your day - I get nada. When I ask them - "what do you think of the idea of national healthcare" we have a highly spirited and interesting debate. And I never "tell them" the answer. I just ask questions:
> - What is good about this
> - What is bad about this
> - What has happened in other countries that have done it
> 
> And that topic may not be age appropriate - but plenty are. Hell I construct a scenario that causes a values "conflict" - keeping a secret vs. safety of a friend. Etc.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Now comes the hard part... living our lives day to day. Her downstairs, me and the kids upstairs. They are wondering what mommy is doing downstairs so much. She is fairly perky when she is with us all, but seems to run down to her lair at the drop of a hat. She is leaving her computer wide open again and her journal laying around her room. I am so tempted to read her inner thoughts, check on the OM and stuff, but I have to resist. I think I'm going to have to force the issue soon. I can't stand this. I'm going to give her about 5 more days of this and then things are going to come to a head. It will be three weeks since D-Day and 11 days since exposure. That also gives us both another round (separately) with the therapist. He has been pretty good at sharing what she is thinking in her sessions. He might has some insight on how to handle this whole thing... argh... I'm probably just overthinking this stuff and just get on with my stuff...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Something weird just happened. I was out working in another part of the house and went to the kitchen to get some lunch. My wife was in there eating some oatmeal at 11:30... I made a comment that it's kinda late eating breakfast now! Just kinda joking around... about 10 minutes later she pulls me into the bedrooms and says, "I didn't appreciate that comment about the oatmeal. It sounds like you are making fun of me" I just said I heard her and that was it. Odd... she's never said something to me like that before. Not sure what to make of it... 

One thing that I'm doing more of that I read is a dominance thing that I never knew was. That is leaving a conversation first. That means when I'm talking to her, I take the initiative to walk away first. I never did that and she always did. I would hang on her every word in the past and she would sometimes tell me to go... not anymore. Whenever I can I turn around and walk away before she can dismiss me... I think it's working...


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

It still sounds like you're hanging on her every word.

Have you ever seen the movie "Swingers" with Vince Vaughn?

If not, rent it and watch it tonight.

You'll understand why I'm recommending it.


----------



## IanIronwood

It is. The only reason she jumped on you about the oatmeal is that you haven't given her any other excuse for a conversation. Note that the tenor of the conversation was negative and accusatory. She's desperate to find some crack in your new armor that she can get her fingernails into. She's trying to make you feel bad, make you feel like the bad guy. Resist the temptation. Keep telling her like it is, not asking for how she wants it. 

Other good abrupt conversation enders:

"Thanks for your input."
"That's not your problem anymore."
"Interesting observation."
"I've got better things to do."
"Not on my agenda today."
"I don't see that as being relevant."
"Stop. I'm done."
"Submit it in writing."
"Really? How 'bout that?"
"I'm trying to stay focused on the important things now."
"That's just not going to be on my radar."
"Send me an email."
"I'm busy."
"Not today."
"I can't hear you when you're being disrespectful."
"Try saying that again like an adult."
"That's not a priority."
"Maybe you should think about that a while."
"We can discuss it again if we're still married in six months."
"You should talk about that in counseling."
"That's not what's best for my family."
"I'm not ready to talk about that right now."
"This is me, giving you your space."
"Don't you have more important things to be thinking about?"
"How's that job search goin'?"
"You know, you might have more credibility if you hadn't messed up our lives like this."

You get the idea. Do not engage. Keep it short and sweet. Don't let her speak to you disrespectfully AT ALL, don't try to be overly polite (observations about oatmeal? Reserve that chit-chat for essentials.) and don't get drawn into conversations at all where she has the initiative. You're the captain of the ship. You have the power to hold her to account. And you have the power to walk away, if you want. In any case, you don't have to put up with disrespectful behavior in your own house. If you wouldn't put up with it from your kids, why does your wife feel that it's okay for you to put up with it from her?

And as to what you should say to your kids about her strange behavior: "Go ask your mother."


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Really not hanging on her every word. Just that this last episode was do different from any interaction we've had in our marriage before. I think Ian is right. That was the first thing that popped into my mind. The old me would just start and argument. The new me was dismissive and indifferent. I said I heard her and walked away before she could say anything. She had a funny look on her face when she left to go to get her hair done. 

Got to re-watch that movie again. I loved it but maybe through the lens of my new experiences it will have new meaning...



Conrad said:


> MNG,
> 
> It still sounds like you're hanging on her every word.
> 
> Have you ever seen the movie "Swingers" with Vince Vaughn?
> 
> If not, rent it and watch it tonight.
> 
> You'll understand why I'm recommending it.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Thanks for all those conversation enders... I need to write them down and stick them in my pocket!


----------



## BlackMedicine357

IanIronwood said:


> It is. The only reason she jumped on you about the oatmeal is that you haven't given her any other excuse for a conversation. Note that the tenor of the conversation was negative and accusatory. She's desperate to find some crack in your new armor that she can get her fingernails into. She's trying to make you feel bad, make you feel like the bad guy. Resist the temptation. Keep telling her like it is, not asking for how she wants it.
> 
> Other good abrupt conversation enders:
> 
> "Thanks for your input."
> "That's not your problem anymore."
> "Interesting observation."
> "I've got better things to do."
> "Not on my agenda today."
> "I don't see that as being relevant."
> "Stop. I'm done."
> "Submit it in writing."
> "Really? How 'bout that?"
> "I'm trying to stay focused on the important things now."
> "That's just not going to be on my radar."
> "Send me an email."
> "I'm busy."
> "Not today."
> "I can't hear you when you're being disrespectful."
> "Try saying that again like an adult."
> "That's not a priority."
> "Maybe you should think about that a while."
> "We can discuss it again if we're still married in six months."
> "You should talk about that in counseling."
> "That's not what's best for my family."
> "I'm not ready to talk about that right now."
> "This is me, giving you your space."
> "Don't you have more important things to be thinking about?"
> "How's that job search goin'?"
> "You know, you might have more credibility if you hadn't messed up our lives like this."
> 
> You get the idea. Do not engage. Keep it short and sweet. Don't let her speak to you disrespectfully AT ALL, don't try to be overly polite (observations about oatmeal? Reserve that chit-chat for essentials.) and don't get drawn into conversations at all where she has the initiative. You're the captain of the ship. You have the power to hold her to account. And you have the power to walk away, if you want. In any case, you don't have to put up with disrespectful behavior in your own house. If you wouldn't put up with it from your kids, why does your wife feel that it's okay for you to put up with it from her?
> 
> And as to what you should say to your kids about her strange behavior: "Go ask your mother."


Love these! Thanks Ian. Teamed with other strategies, these should keep things interesting for a while. I'm usually at a loss for a quick comeback with W. I do much better when I have time to think and respond, but that kind of response lacks edge.

How 'bout that? I can learn for a porn star!

Black


----------



## Deejo

Of that list, you only need 3 for your repertoire. Mix up the body language and delivery style of any of them and you're set for life.

A friend of mine does a good deal of training and often talks about the message you send with tone and body language. 

The phrase he used as an example was: "What are you doing?" He demonstrated that the phrase can have about a dozen meanings or emotions thrown behind that one sentence, depending upon the message you are trying to convey.

In fact, "What are you doing?" is one of my 3.


----------



## BlackMedicine357

Thanks Deejo. It is a long list. I'll pick my faves and work on delivery.


----------



## less_disgruntled

Deejo said:


> Of that list, you only need 3 for your repertoire. Mix up the body language and delivery style of any of them and you're set for life.


Some of that list reads to me like it's prone to sarcasm, which IMO is too 'sensitive'. I think irony (as in cancer, not clowns), disappointment (not "i'm so disappointed this isn't working" but "I'm disappointed at all the re-planning I have to do w/ you out of the picture") and disapproval (not "how could you do this to me" but "you aren't qualifying for the team") are called for, not humor... it can be funny if there's a third person in the room, but you've got to be serious and she can't think it's you being funny.

Maybe that's just me, though, I prefer deadpan understated delivery.


Is there a consensus on 'forcing the issue' re: apologizing? B/c honestly I get the impression that some people never apologize for anything.


----------



## less_disgruntled

BlackMedicine357 said:


> Thanks Deejo. It is a long list. I'll pick my faves and work on delivery.


Why do you need to work on delivery? You are upset w/ your spouse if you're using any of them, and "upset" means losing your willingness to tolerate being around her until she shapes up. That's honesty. Looking at the stuff your wife did in your thread all you have to do is get in touch with that "this is really, really not okay and it's not negotiable, you either get to keep being an ******* or you get to keep me" sense. It's not negotiable b/c under no circumstances would it have been okay. No need to go theater club on it IMO unless you're not able to send the message.


----------



## Conrad

I don't think it hurts to send the message in a manner that makes it most likely to be understood.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Things that make you Hmmm...

Wife was out all afternoon and I've been working, but I wanted to make sure we all had a sit down dinner tonight that everyone would eat so I roasted a chicken. My wife comes in and she in a good mood. Talking to my younger son with a lot of enthusiasm. She asks what's for dinner and I just look at the oven with the chicken in there. (I bake a chicken like 2-3 times a month) She opens it up and looks at me and says, with a wry grin on her face, "What are you up too?". I'm like Huh? She says it again, "what are you up too?' like what is all this stuff you've been doing? In my mind, I'm like WTF? I'm trying to feed my family... but I know where she is coming from and I just look at her and say "trying to live my life!" and walk away... I feel it coming from her, the commitment. The sobbing... The remorse... She did this briefly about a month ago before her mind went to the dark side on this affair...


----------



## less_disgruntled

I thought she wanted to separate. Why is she eating dinner with you?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Exactly...



less_disgruntled said:


> i thought she wanted to separate. Why is she eating dinner with you?


Oh and she took the passwords protection off her iphone and computer... Hmmm....


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
"Kind of late to be eating breakfast" is perceived as an attempt to "make conversation". Don't do that. It hurts you. Really - trust me. I would be divorced by now if I did not know how to manage an aggressive conflict with .............. silence.




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Thanks for all those conversation enders... I need to write them down and stick them in my pocket!


----------



## less_disgruntled

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Exactly...


I mean why are you letting her eat with you? She wants separate, give her separate. She can eat with the kids on the weekend (this is at-fault on her end, remember?). Maybe you're generous enough to let her re-heat leftovers. Maybe not. Don't make food for her. Separate.


----------



## MEM2020

*No no no no*

The post below is the totally fk'd up approach of angry/vindictive people. Calm, confident people do their thing. Unless you are directly antagonizing them - they would never keep you from dinner with your kids. 

MNG makes dinner. If his W joins them for dinner she gets to see him leading the children forward. As long as she does not disrupt THAT - she is welcome. Hopefully he will limit all conversation with HER to "please pass the pepper". 

In this way he shows his tremendous ability to dominate his own emotions. And she continues to get frost bite. 

In a week we will help him up the ante if need be. But it will not be at the dinner table. 






less_disgruntled said:


> I mean why are you letting her eat with you? She wants separate, give her separate. She can eat with the kids on the weekend (this is at-fault on her end, remember?). Maybe you're generous enough to let her re-heat leftovers. Maybe not. Don't make food for her. Separate.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

She is hovering tonight... I can feel something coming on... I've been scarce though, spending time with the kids and cleaning the kitchen. I feel talk coming tonight... but no talking until she gives in... I'm standing strong!


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Things that make you Hmmm...
> 
> Wife was out all afternoon and I've been working, but I wanted to make sure we all had a sit down dinner tonight that everyone would eat so I roasted a chicken. My wife comes in and she in a good mood. Talking to my younger son with a lot of enthusiasm. She asks what's for dinner and I just look at the oven with the chicken in there. (I bake a chicken like 2-3 times a month) She opens it up and looks at me and says, with a wry grin on her face, "What are you up too?". I'm like Huh? She says it again, "what are you up too?' like what is all this stuff you've been doing? In my mind, I'm like WTF? I'm trying to feed my family... but I know where she is coming from and I just look at her and say "trying to live my life!" and walk away... I feel it coming from her, the commitment. The sobbing... The remorse... She did this briefly about a month ago before her mind went to the dark side on this affair...


Don't anticipate it.

Remember, you could be on the moon and not miss it.

There is almost no limit to the amount of heartache I could have saved myself if I didn't attempt to anticipate the emotional response of other people.

They are entitled to make their own mistakes. And, as much as we love them, there isn't a damned thing we can do about it. And, if we TRY to do something about it, we make it all the likelier that they will REMIND us there's nothing we can do about it.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

You are right Conrad, I just need to remind myself what I've been through in the last week to bring me back to earth... I'm thinking good new might come and she has almost always disappoints, so I here and now with no expectations of anything.


----------



## less_disgruntled

*Re: No no no no*



MEM11363 said:


> The post below is the totally fk'd up approach of angry/vindictive people. Calm, confident people do their thing. Unless you are directly antagonizing them - they would never keep you from dinner with your kids.
> 
> MNG makes dinner. If his W joins them for dinner she gets to see him leading the children forward. As long as she does not disrupt THAT - she is welcome. Hopefully he will limit all conversation with HER to "please pass the pepper".
> 
> In this way he shows his tremendous ability to dominate his own emotions. And she continues to get frost bite.
> 
> In a week we will help him up the ante if need be. But it will not be at the dinner table.


I get the part about the kids. But a few days ago she was going to move to her own place, where there would be no kids and no warm meals. She is still sleeping separate. To my mind this is cake-having-and-eating still. It is the type of thing that they should have figured out explicitly when she said she wanted to separate but they couldn't afford it.

I'll cop to vindictive, though.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: No no no no*

LD,
You are right. This is complicated. My thinking on this situation - is that as long as she is in the house he should not disrupt any activities with the children if he can avoid it. 

I think she may be cake eating. BUT she keeps coming to him for "emotional support". If he withdraws that fully - which he can easily do while still sharing a family dinner every night - she may begin to suffer the effects of hypothermia. 

In fact - if I were at the edge of disaster with my W I would prefer to be in her company for a bit. Indifference dished up in close proximity is SO much colder than just not calling someone who has moved out. 




less_disgruntled said:


> I get the part about the kids. But a few days ago she was going to move to her own place, where there would be no kids and no warm meals. She is still sleeping separate. To my mind this is cake-having-and-eating still. It is the type of thing that they should have figured out explicitly when she said she wanted to separate but they couldn't afford it.
> 
> I'll cop to vindictive, though.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

*Re: No no no no*

I think she's backed off the cake eating tonight. I'm not completely icing her out, I think that would push her further away. I am just being my happy go lucky self and being really involved with my kids and setting an example of good family life. Tonight she is not running to her downstairs lair, but spending a good amount of time with us.

Out of the blue, my older son asked her if mommy and daddy were going on a date again. (We actually had one of the best dates we've had in years about 3 weeks ago!) He kept asking her that question and looking at me she said "sure we will"... weird stuff...

But I've been here with her several times. What seems like a lot of fun on the surface actually turns to sh!t later. She did that to me about 6 weeks ago when we had a great time at a party and came home and she really lit into me, but I was not self aware of my Nice Guy stuff back then and was seeking approval, hovering and anxious. I've come a long way. 



MEM11363 said:


> LD,
> You are right. This is complicated. My thinking on this situation - is that as long as she is in the house he should not disrupt any activities with the children if he can avoid it.
> 
> I think she may be cake eating. BUT she keeps coming to him for "emotional support". If he withdraws that fully - which he can easily do while still sharing a family dinner every night - she may begin to suffer the effects of hypothermia.
> 
> In fact - if I were at the edge of disaster with my W I would prefer to be in her company for a bit. Indifference dished up in close proximity is SO much colder than just not calling someone who has moved out.


----------



## AFEH

MNG, it may help you to think as every sentence uttered by your wife as a “Story”. At any time any one of her stories may be true or they may be false, a deception.

Looking at your wife this way does mean that you become a “cynic”, that you believe that your wife is only interested in herself and is not sincere in her communications with you. It means that you do not believe a word your wife has spoken until at some time it is proven to be true.

The attitude to adopt when you listen to your wife and her “stories” (these are any sentences she speaks) is one of calm with a small smile on your face. You send the signal that you neither believe or disbelieve her. It’s like a “shoulder shrug with a smile” and then you continue doing what you were doing before you heard her story.

It may also help you to think of your wife as an adult with a very good level of maturity and responsibility in some areas of her life but at the same time as a seven year old going through a phase of growing up and maturing in other areas of her life. Hopefully in time she’ll be able to drop the dysfunctional seven year old behaviour.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH, thanks... I am already there with my wife now, I am a cynic. I wished I had been there years go just being a cynic about what came out of her mouth. Whenever she talks to me now I have wry grin on my face because I simply can't believe any she tells me right now...

As for anticipating something happening last night, nothing did. I fell asleep on the couch reading a book and she fell asleep in one the kids beds trying to get him to sleep. She woke me up around midnight and we just grumbled at each other and staggered off to our separate beds... Tomorrow is a new day, and I'm sure there will be yet more excitement!


----------



## AFEH

I’m glad you’re there already MNG. We all start off being naïve in these things and they do change us in one way or another. A lot of what we believed in the past was based on “trust” and a pure need not to believe the unbelievable. It is a big wake up call.

How are you doing with your boundaries? You know, those N.U.T.s. Those things you will not tolerate under any circumstances.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I don't think I can fully trust a woman again. I might get 99% there but there will always be something in the back of my head examining every thing she does. Which is probably healthy. I remember about a year or so ago, she asked me over a couple of weeks if I was having an affair and I wasn't of course. In hindsight, she was wondering why I was so distracted. I was distracted because the recession and our business was not doing all that great...



AFEH said:


> I’m glad you’re there already MNG. We all start off being naïve in these things and they do change us in one way or another. A lot of what we believed in the past was based on “trust” and a pure need not to believe the unbelievable. It is a big wake up call.


I'm holding my own on my NUTs. She hasn't pushed my boundaries since Saturday morning when we had a blow up. I did OK there, not great, but I showed her the brink and that I was willing to sacrifice it all to get her out of the house. I think that scared her a little.

The only other issue that I have with my NUTs is hanging out with more men. It was so easy when you are young and single with playing sports and such. As part of being a Nice Guy I lost all my male friends. Now I have to make a conscious effort to go join something or find a male support group to be with some men. I am having beers with a good friend of mine tomorrow night, but I need more of that stuff...



> How are you doing with your boundaries? You know, those N.U.T.s. Those things you will not tolerate under any circumstances.
> 
> Bob


I forgot to mention she had a talk with an old boss about possible jobs in her old company. I think she had her hopes up there would be something she could just walk into, but anything there will probably take months to land a job. She has a couple of other resumes out but again weeks or months before anything happens.

So, I think she is going to be living here for a while. I'm giving her a few more days and I need to push her on this marriage and living arrangements. Not sure how much time is good to let her live here like this but she seems to be coming out of the fog. Everyone said she needs to come to me about Relationship stuff, but somehow I need to bring it and push her on it.


----------



## IanIronwood

Quick question: Who's doing the laundry now?

I can appreciate the difficult position you're in -- and unless she's a highly sought-after professional, she's gonna have a tough time in the job market right now -- but when you do have that discussion, remember to include the household chores in the equation. Nothing makes a woman feel more entitled than having someone else clean her house.


----------



## AFEH

IanIronwood said:


> Quick question: Who's doing the laundry now?
> 
> I can appreciate the difficult position you're in -- and unless she's a highly sought-after professional, she's gonna have a tough time in the job market right now -- but when you do have that discussion, remember to include the household chores in the equation. Nothing makes a woman feel more entitled than having someone else clean her house.


You forget to mention the cooking. All signs of "I love you and therefore you can do what you want with me as I'll always be here".


----------



## AFEH

It is so important to have male buddies MNG, so very important. For me it’s best done through sport, squash, tennis, football etc. etc. It’s a big bonding thing especially when there’s doubles or a team. Plus it’s very healthy.

Marriage can lead to isolation and we become far too dependent on our wife for our feelings of well being and recognition. Even our very identity. It’s like we’ve invested our life in just one relationship which is never healthy.

I recognised that a few years back and one of my key life goals was to build a social circle with buddies, it’s worked out tremendously well for me. It takes time and effort though but the investment is immensely rewarded.

Bob


----------



## IanIronwood

AFEH said:


> You forget to mention the cooking. All signs of "I love you and therefore you can do what you want with me as I'll always be here".


Dude, if she cooks like my wife, then the husband doing the cooking is just a humanitarian thing. My wife couldn't cook her way out of a refugee camp.

But anyone can do their own laundry.


----------



## Neil

IanIronwood said:


> But anyone can do their own laundry.


Don't be so sure LOL,

i'm 32, and have only just learned these last few weeks how to switch the damn thing on, and which clothes can go in with which etc etc.

My next goal is to suss out how the iron works


----------



## greenpearl

IanIronwood said:


> Dude, if she cooks like my wife, then the husband doing the cooking is just a humanitarian thing. My wife couldn't cook her way out of a refugee camp.
> 
> But anyone can do their own laundry.


:rofl:


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> It is so important to have male buddies MNG, so very important. For me it’s best done through sport, squash, tennis, football etc. etc. It’s a big bonding thing especially when there’s doubles or a team. Plus it’s very healthy.
> 
> Marriage can lead to isolation and we become far too dependent on our wife for our feelings of well being and recognition. Even our very identity. It’s like we’ve invested our life in just one relationship which is never healthy.
> 
> I recognised that a few years back and one of my key life goals was to build a social circle with buddies, it’s worked out tremendously well for me. It takes time and effort though but the investment is immensely rewarded.
> 
> Bob


Friends are very important in our lives, if we can have a few very good friends, we are lucky! 

A man who I met on the airplane told us that friends are extremely important when we are facing marriage problems. When we don't have marriage problems, we don't find friends important in our life. But who knows what's going to happen in the future? He shared with us his story when he went through his divorce with his ex, he said it was really difficult for him because he had no where to seek support and comfort. Now he has many friends. One big reason I am going back to our meetings!


----------



## AFEH

IanIronwood said:


> Dude, if she cooks like my wife, then the husband doing the cooking is just a humanitarian thing. My wife couldn't cook her way out of a refugee camp.
> 
> But anyone can do their own laundry.


Ha! But cooking and cleaning are acts of “service” and service is supposedly one of the love languages. So by doing those things MNG is DEMONSTRATING to his wife that he still loves her which he more than likely does.

The 180 which MNG says he is doing is a lot about stopping acts of service and therefore stopping demonstrations of love (it actually says a very big “I’m hopelessly in love with you” far more than the words “I love you"). So in effect MNG is still being Mr Nice Guy even though he says that is not who he wants to be!

So acts of service are withdrawn as far as possible UNTIL his wife wants to step right back in and totally and utterly commit to making their marriage work. With the chicken meal situation, MNG and the children need to eat, the thing to have done would have been to let his wife dish up whatever was left! She may well have got the “message” if he’d done that.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

This is exactly what is happening... we'd have hot dogs and macaroni every night... The kids need to eat healthy meals...



IanIronwood said:


> Dude, if she cooks like my wife, then the husband doing the cooking is just a humanitarian thing. My wife couldn't cook her way out of a refugee camp.
> 
> But anyone can do their own laundry.


----------



## greenpearl

Please don't mind me for being sarcastic! 

If a woman doesn't cook, doesn't do the laundry, doesn't clean up, doesn't look after the kids, sucks to be the man who is this woman's husband! 

A lot of these western women really have good life! 

Taiwanese women suck, they have to work and have to do everything at home!


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## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> This is exactly what is happening... we'd have hot dogs and macaroni every night... The kids need to eat healthy meals...



Well you feed you and the kids, let HER eat "hot dogs and macaroni every night"


----------



## greenpearl

MisterNiceGuy said:


> This is exactly what is happening... we'd have hot dogs and macaroni every night... The kids need to eat healthy meals...


Sorry that you have to look after your kids and yourself. But it is important for you and your kids to have healthy meals.


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## AFEH

greenpearl said:


> If a woman doesn't cook, doesn't do the laundry, doesn't clean up, doesn't look after the kids, sucks to be the man who is this woman's husband!


It's how Nice Guys let themselves be "made", evolve into something they weren't. Plus maybe what they learnt from their fathers.

Can't blame others for our own behaviour and who we became, not even the wife, that's totally on us. Once we recognise and accept that, that we got ourselves there in the first place, then anything's possible.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Neil said:


> Well you feed you and the kids, let HER eat "hot dogs and macaroni every night"


Way to go. But MNG is still a “practicing” Nice Guy, he hasn’t as yet taken himself off of the list of “Professional Nice Guys”.

Change takes time, old habits die hard, some things are really tough, fear of loss can be great. It's when the pain gets too much to bear that the greatest changes are made.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> It's how Nice Guys let themselves be "made", evolve into something they weren't. Plus maybe what they learnt from their fathers.
> 
> Can't blame others for our own behaviour and who we became, not even the wife, that's totally on us. Once we recognise and accept that, that we got ourselves there in the first place, then anything's possible.
> 
> Bob


A strong man has to let his wife know that cooking for him is important, cooking for the family is important. He can be a loving husband by helping her out! 

A strong man has to lay out what a woman's duty is in the house. 

A man can't spoil his wife, he can't keep on tolerating her as she is always his girlfriend.


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## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> fear of loss can be great. It's when the pain gets too much to bear that the greatest changes are made.
> 
> Bob


When you don't fear of losing anything, you become tough and you become strong! Nice guys have to realize that! 

What's so great about a woman who doesn't do anything at home! :scratchhead:


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## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Way to go. But MNG is still a “practicing” Nice Guy, he hasn’t as yet taken himself off of the list of “Professional Nice Guys”.
> 
> Change takes time, old habits die hard, some things are really tough, fear of loss can be great. It's when the pain gets too much to bear that the greatest changes are made.
> 
> Bob


The pain will eventually overcome the fear of loss.

It's only a matter of when - and how much damage gets done in the interim.


----------



## Neil

greenpearl said:


> A strong man has to let his wife know that cooking for him is important, cooking for the family is important. He can be a loving husband by helping her out!
> 
> A strong man has to lay out what a woman's duty is in the house.
> 
> A man can't spoil his wife, he can't keep on tolerating her as she is always his girlfriend.


The woman can't even admit she has done no wrong......

he can show strength by cooking for him and his kids only!

She doesn't deserve anything until she shows remorse and admits anything. That STILL hasn't happened, and yet he continues to "Serve her".


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## alphaomega

No. I'll take a different approach here. MNG is making meals for his kids. When his wife comes and joins him, he's still being indifferent to her, and he's also demonstrating to her that he's above little petty acts of forced disservice. He's showing her that he can remain strong and calm even when his wife joins them for dinner. I think he's demonstrating that he knows what makes him strong, nothing bothers him, even his disloyal wife sitting at the table with them.

To me, not getting uncomfortable and riled ip when his disloyal wife joins them at the table is not as bad as is made out to be, and probably confuses the heck out of her at the same time, since she's probably trying to make everything like it never really happened, but he's not falling for it.

Any comments?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega

Well, as long as he doesn't get all lovey to her at the table. ThEn we'd just have to kick him in the grapes!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI

alphaomega said:


> No. I'll take a different approach here. MNG is making meals for his kids. When his wife comes and joins him, he's still being indifferent to her, and he's also demonstrating to her that he's above little petty acts of forced disservice. He's showing her that he can remain strong and calm even when his wife joins them for dinner. I think he's demonstrating that he knows what makes him strong, nothing bothers him, even his disloyal wife sitting at the table with them.
> 
> To me, not getting uncomfortable and riled ip when his disloyal wife joins them at the table is not as bad as is made out to be, and probably confuses the heck out of her at the same time, since she's probably trying to make everything like it never really happened, but he's not falling for it.
> 
> Any comments?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. I think the laundry issue would be the place to take it further. He could still continue to do his kids' laundry along with his own, but put his wife's into another basket. Eventually she'll notice she has no clothing and flip out. Picking one of the one-liners for this situation would be helpful. "I've got better things to do" or "That's not a priority" would work well.


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> This is exactly what is happening... we'd have hot dogs and macaroni every night... The kids need to eat healthy meals...


I get that. That's more or less my wife's idea of a home-cooked dinner. In this case, it isn't an "act of service", but converting a Beta skill into an Alpha skill. When a man cooks for his family, he's re-establishing his role as Provider and Executive: I selected this menu, I shopped for this food, I prepared it the way I wanted to, and if you have a problem with that McD's is open until 11. Especially if you have specific things you like to cook that you know she's not fond of. You can speak volumes with food, if you know what you're doing. 

Incidently, my 6-year old is now officially a better cook than my wife, and my 11 year old shows flashes of culinary brilliance. He turned his first flawless omelette this weekend -- daddy's so proud! If your wife doesn't cook then I encourage you to include your boys in food prep and shopping. If she doesn't have a native talent or interest in it, it's a way for you guys to bond without including her. 

I know my wife wrinkled her nose, annoyed, after my 6 year old presented her with a bowl of cereal with a dash of cocoa powder on top because, as he said haughtily, "In this house, we garnish!"

She doesn't appreciate that sort of thing at all. Which makes it all the more special with me and the kids. It isn't really about an act of service, it's about mastering an essential domestic task and elevating it to the level of creative experience.


----------



## IanIronwood

greenpearl said:


> Please don't mind me for being sarcastic!
> 
> If a woman doesn't cook, doesn't do the laundry, doesn't clean up, doesn't look after the kids, sucks to be the man who is this woman's husband!
> 
> A lot of these western women really have good life!
> 
> Taiwanese women suck, they have to work and have to do everything at home!


Hey, as long as she's ready for sex to my satisfaction, I'm more than happy to take care of the house. If the nookie stops, though, my house starts looking rough. A man can put up with quite a bit if he's sexually happy, and there's nothing unmanly about housework.


----------



## spartan

wow MNG. I am where you are at 2 months ago. My wife of 16 years does not know if she still wants to be married to me. I have read every post on these 33 pages and I am doing EXACTLY what is being recommended. 

I am not going to sacrifice my self worth over a woman that may or may not still want to be with me. If this is a sh!t test as per Athol then I want no part of it. I am not going to continue on this roller coaster ride with her. If this is a cry for attention for her then I will listen, however, I will make no mistake about what I deserve out of a marriage. Like you MNG we give and we give and we give- yet we never take what is rightfully ours.


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## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> No. I'll take a different approach here. MNG is making meals for his kids. When his wife comes and joins him, he's still being indifferent to her, and he's also demonstrating to her that he's above little petty acts of forced disservice. He's showing her that he can remain strong and calm even when his wife joins them for dinner. I think he's demonstrating that he knows what makes him strong, nothing bothers him, even his disloyal wife sitting at the table with them.
> 
> To me, not getting uncomfortable and riled ip when his disloyal wife joins them at the table is not as bad as is made out to be, and probably confuses the heck out of her at the same time, since she's probably trying to make everything like it never really happened, but he's not falling for it.
> 
> Any comments?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What!!! “Petty little acts of disservice”.

Joking aside I think you are seriously undermining one of the 5 so called love languages and because of that one of the ways a person quite literally demonstrates their love for another! In effect, you are saying “The way you demonstrate your love for me has no meaning, absolutely no value whatsoever”!

It sounds like “Acts of Service” is one of MNG’s key love languages for his wife. If it is and he withdraws acts of service he may well be wondering “How on heck do I demonstrate to my wife that I love her?”.

By continuing with his acts of service, MNG’s wife will forever have him by the balls and will continue to act as though he’s given her the green light to go ahead to do what she’s been doing!

Bob


----------



## IanIronwood

greenpearl said:


> A strong man has to let his wife know that cooking for him is important, cooking for the family is important. He can be a loving husband by helping her out!
> 
> A strong man has to lay out what a woman's duty is in the house.
> 
> A man can't spoil his wife, he can't keep on tolerating her as she is always his girlfriend.


Not in America, not any more. Most women of my generation can't cook past the microwave level. Most fellas, on the other hand, spent some time in a restaurant kitchen at some point. Cooking (and all housework) in America is now a shared responsibility in most households, although that's a matter of some debate. 

I view cooking as an expression of domestic control, not of service, _per se_. My wife cooking for her family would _not_ be a loving expression. More like something she'd do if she was mad at us. And the idea that women are natural cooks and men aren't just isn't true.


----------



## IanIronwood

WhereAmI said:


> I agree. I think the laundry issue would be the place to take it further. He could still continue to do his kids' laundry along with his own, but put his wife's into another basket. Eventually she'll notice she has no clothing and flip out. Picking one of the one-liners for this situation would be helpful. "I've got better things to do" or "That's not a priority" would work well.


I forgot to add to that list, "Sucks to be you!" Oversight on my part. But that's it exactly: she should be doing at least 50% of the domestic chores, if she's going to be there, not including cooking. That includes outdoor chores as well. Hand her a list and keep her accountable. If she doesn't like it, she knows where the door is.


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## MisterNiceGuy

She has her back up this morning. I'm not sure why, but she is going to try and push things today. She came to me this morning to share something she read in a magazine and I stupidly jumped in before she finished her sentence, violating a basic rule of the NUTs book. Listening. She got pissed, but she is being super sensitive this morning. It feels like we are married or something... If she comes to me this morning about this stuff, I'm just going to put up my and say, "this sounds like you want to work this stuff out with me. I can only do that with a marriage commitment. Otherwise, I can pretty say and do what I want without your approval".

BTW, I like Ian's approach to all this. I am taking control of this stuff away from her. I make the decisions about what, where and when we are eating. She has to follow along and eat what I'm making. I used to ask her what she would like for dinner but she forfeited that when she wanted to separate and live downstairs.


----------



## Conrad

IanIronwood said:


> I forgot to add to that list, "Sucks to be you!" Oversight on my part. But that's it exactly: she should be doing at least 50% of the domestic chores, if she's going to be there, not including cooking. That includes outdoor chores as well. Hand her a list and keep her accountable. If she doesn't like it, she knows where the door is.


Retrospectively, it would have been appropriate to quit doing her laundry and asking her meal preferences when she decided to quit having sex with him.


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
Why are you unable to simply tell her 
"I am not agreeable to any discussion other than kids and schedules until you fully commit to the marriage". 

And then let her respond. Anything other than a 100 percent commit you just say "sounds like you aren't ready to commit - we have nothing to discuss until you are"

Why is that so hard for you? Why do you not grasp that each and every interaction you have while she is cake eating erodes her core respect for you?

She WANTS you to do that. Worse she NEEDS you to do that. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> She has her back up this morning. I'm not sure why, but she is going to try and push things today. She came to me this morning to share something she read in a magazine and I stupidly jumped in before she finished her sentence, violating a basic rule of the NUTs book. Listening. She got pissed, but she is being super sensitive this morning. It feels like we are married or something... If she comes to me this morning about this stuff, I'm just going to put up my and say, "this sounds like you want to work this stuff out with me. I can only do that with a marriage commitment. Otherwise, I can pretty say and do what I want without your approval".
> 
> BTW, I like Ian's approach to all this. I am taking control of this stuff away from her. I make the decisions about what, where and when we are eating. She has to follow along and eat what I'm making. I used to ask her what she would like for dinner but she forfeited that when she wanted to separate and live downstairs.


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She has her back up this morning. I'm not sure why, but she is going to try and push things today. She came to me this morning to share something she read in a magazine and I stupidly jumped in before she finished her sentence, violating a basic rule of the NUTs book. Listening. She got pissed, but she is being super sensitive this morning. It feels like we are married or something... If she comes to me this morning about this stuff, I'm just going to put up my and say, "this sounds like you want to work this stuff out with me. I can only do that with a marriage commitment. Otherwise, I can pretty say and do what I want without your approval".
> 
> BTW, I like Ian's approach to all this. I am taking control of this stuff away from her. I make the decisions about what, where and when we are eating. She has to follow along and eat what I'm making. I used to ask her what she would like for dinner but she forfeited that when she wanted to separate and live downstairs.


Yes, get ready for a push today. She's let you have a couple of days of playing nice "your way" while her head spun and she regrouped. She's expecting you to start getting sloppy now, though, because she's sees what you're doing as a tactic, not a strategy, and she's mistaking your resolve for smugness. 

So she'll wait until you're ostensibly off-guard, then start with something innocuous, and then start tilting the conversation against you in a negative manner -- putting you in a bad light, (subtly, at first) making you out to be the villain and her the victim, and before you know it it will be all your fault that you drove her away again blah blah blah.

Don't fall for it, of course. When she starts the innocuous topic, don't be afraid to listen. Don't say a word. Let her completely exhaust her thought process until she becomes flustered that you haven't joined in, as normal. Once she becomes uncomfortable, she'll sputter to a stop, usually with some BS question designed to make you expose yourself in some unanticipated way.

Then count to five silently while you just stare at her and you're deciding on how to respond. If the subject is business-oriented, stick to the bare bones of the business and end it after you have spoken. If it's about the kids, attend to it like you would if the babysitter had brought it to your attention. 

But if it's about anything else, don't be afraid to bust out with, 

"You know, I used to enjoy our little chats like this. It made me feel good to be married to you. But until you're willing to commit 100% to this, and you convince me of that commitment, then all of this small talk just makes me bitter and sad. I hope you can understand. How's the job search going?"

Shut it down in it's tracks, and change the subject to an area of her responsibility, where _she_ is accountable for something. Or dismiss her out of hand. 

But if she's ready to stab you and twist the knife, verbally, you'll be able to sense it and be prepared. If she goes nasty from the beginning, the moment her voice raises past normal conversational level, SHUT HER DOWN at once. Simply refuse to listen to anything that's not addressed to you in polite and respectful tones. If she persists, with finger waggling and shouting and insults, either walk away yourself after telling her you'll speak again when she's ready to be an adult, or push her gently out of your office and shut the door in her face with that same reason.

But be prepared. It's coming. She's going to act when she thinks you're off-guard, distracted by something else. But it's coming.


----------



## Conrad

mem11363 said:


> mng,
> why are you unable to simply tell her
> "i am not agreeable to any discussion other than kids and schedules until you fully commit to the marriage".
> 
> And then let her respond. Anything other than a 100 percent commit you just say "sounds like you aren't ready to commit - we have nothing to discuss until you are"
> 
> why is that so hard for you? Why do you not grasp that each and every interaction you have while she is cake eating erodes her core respect for you?
> 
> She wants you to do that. Worse she needs you to do that.


please do this mng.


----------



## alphaomega

MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> Why are you unable to simply tell her
> "I am not agreeable to any discussion other than kids and schedules until you fully commit to the marriage".
> 
> And then let her respond. Anything other than a 100 percent commit you just say "sounds like you aren't ready to commit - we have nothing to discuss until you are"
> 
> Why is that so hard for you? Why do you not grasp that each and every interaction you have while she is cake eating erodes her core respect for you?
> 
> She WANTS you to do that. Worse she NEEDS you to do that.


Baby steps. I think MNG gets it, but I understand that years of behavior is hard to break, especially on the spot like that.

Keep working at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

AFEH said:


> What!!! “Petty little acts of disservice”.
> 
> Joking aside I think you are seriously undermining one of the 5 so called love languages and because of that one of the ways a person quite literally demonstrates their love for another! In effect, you are saying “The way you demonstrate your love for me has no meaning, absolutely no value whatsoever”!
> 
> It sounds like “Acts of Service” is one of MNG’s key love languages for his wife. If it is and he withdraws acts of service he may well be wondering “How on heck do I demonstrate to my wife that I love her?”.
> 
> By continuing with his acts of service, MNG’s wife will forever have him by the balls and will continue to act as though he’s given her the green light to go ahead to do what she’s been doing!
> 
> Bob


Well..you have a point. But I'm making food for my kids. If my disloyal comes to the table after the fact and joins up, I'm not going to purposefully deny her actions out of spite. Spite is petty, and not manning up at all. Me...I would just keep the conversation between the kids and myself, and show her that her presence doesn't affect me negatively at all.

I've never read that book. But acts of service may not be her love language. It's not one of mine. So yes, if my SO demonstrated her love via acts of service, I wouldn't have a clue what she was up to because it would have no meaning to me whatsoever. Unless, of course, I read that book. Which, now, I have to...lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

alphaomega said:


> Baby steps. I think MNG gets it, but I understand that years of behavior is hard to break, especially on the spot like that.
> 
> Keep working at it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's fitness testing him - and he's coming up short.

If he cannot find the courage to do this for himself, I hope he can do it after looking into the eyes of his children.


----------



## Catherine602

MNG In reference to chores - I think this may help. This is one area that I think is the most contentious in many marriages. One person feels entitled to household service and feels that they are "helping" their spouse when they take on their fair share of the domestic load. 

My feeling is that when two adult share a domicile, they are both responsible for upkeep. It is unfair that one person is a domestic drudge for the other. I think this should be part of the conditions you make for her recommitment. Thinking of it this way will help to to remember to be fair to yourself and not be a maid for her, she is not entitled to that.. 

Although, staying at home with kids is also work, some tasks may be more easily handled by the person at home. For instance, collecting the dirty clothes and placing in the machines and folding while watching TV cooking, cleaning of areas they use in the course of the day. 

As the kids get older and require less care there is even more free time and it is only fair that the work load should increase for the person at home. 

The rationale for this is that the stay at home person, may have more free time than the working party so, in terms of energy outlay. If there is a new born - toddler age child that may not be the case. In all fairness, they should do what ever they can within reason. 

If they both work then that has to be taken into consideration. Make sure that what ever task out side the home is counted, as this is also taking care of the home. 

This is a very common arrangement in good marriages. Meet periodically to reappraise how each is feeling and agree on what ever adjustment is necessary so stave off resentment. 

I would suggest a list of chores, each person decides which they will take responsibility for. If she shirks her responsibilities, you know what to do...... man.


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## MisterNiceGuy

If I can save one marriage from my postings here, I feel I've done a great service to the world. It may be too late for mine, but maybe not yours. Stand up for yourself. Read the No More Mr. Nice Guy book and the N.U.T.s book and go from there. All you can do is give it your best shot. I wished I had found these books even weeks before my wife's EA (still pretty sure that's all it was) got out of control, it probably could've headed that off at the pass...



spartan said:


> wow MNG. I am where you are at 2 months ago. My wife of 16 years does not know if she still wants to be married to me. I have read every post on these 33 pages and I am doing EXACTLY what is being recommended.
> 
> I am not going to sacrifice my self worth over a woman that may or may not still want to be with me. If this is a sh!t test as per Athol then I want no part of it. I am not going to continue on this roller coaster ride with her. If this is a cry for attention for her then I will listen, however, I will make no mistake about what I deserve out of a marriage. Like you MNG we give and we give and we give- yet we never take what is rightfully ours.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Bob, thanks... While we are not actively working on the 5 love languages per se, I am doing many of them for her to a certain degree. I feel I have to keep something between us otherwise I'm just going to frost her out, which I feel isn't what she wants right now. This is kind of a giant sh!t test and I know it's kind of cake-eating at the same time I have to show that I'm all those things that she wants in a husband without actively sitting down and discussion our relationship and marriage. Cooking, taking care of the kids, house maintenance, that kind of stuff.

We have to spend a couple of hours today working together and I'm feeling that she is going to hit me with some stuff after our tense morning. She is at a meeting til lunch time...



AFEH said:


> What!!! “Petty little acts of disservice”.
> 
> Joking aside I think you are seriously undermining one of the 5 so called love languages and because of that one of the ways a person quite literally demonstrates their love for another! In effect, you are saying “The way you demonstrate your love for me has no meaning, absolutely no value whatsoever”!
> 
> It sounds like “Acts of Service” is one of MNG’s key love languages for his wife. If it is and he withdraws acts of service he may well be wondering “How on heck do I demonstrate to my wife that I love her?”.
> 
> By continuing with his acts of service, MNG’s wife will forever have him by the balls and will continue to act as though he’s given her the green light to go ahead to do what she’s been doing!
> 
> Bob


----------



## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> Well..you have a point. But I'm making food for my kids. If my disloyal comes to the table after the fact and joins up, I'm not going to purposefully deny her actions out of spite. Spite is petty, and not manning up at all. Me...I would just keep the conversation between the kids and myself, and show her that her presence doesn't affect me negatively at all.
> 
> I've never read that book. But acts of service may not be her love language. It's not one of mine. So yes, if my SO demonstrated her love via acts of service, I wouldn't have a clue what she was up to because it would have no meaning to me whatsoever. Unless, of course, I read that book. Which, now, I have to...lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Withholding love (in this cases “services”) is not done out of spite.

Part of the reason it’s done is to not to reward “bad behaviour”, a person who is being emotionally abusive, in an affair etc.

Because if they continue to get love (rewards) from their spouse, they will continue with their emotional abuse or affair as they will have no reason to cease.

Withholding love (services here) sends the message “My love for you is conditional”.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Yes, this is my problem. I am in a steep learning curve and I slip up now and then like this morning. I get it and I have been thinking exactly what Alpha said starting about two days ago. When we have our next discussion about the R, this is exactly what I'm going to say...



alphaomega said:


> Baby steps. I think MNG gets it, but I understand that years of behavior is hard to break, especially on the spot like that.
> 
> Keep working at it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Bob, thanks... While we are not actively working on the 5 love languages per se, I am doing many of them for her to a certain degree. I feel I have to keep something between us otherwise I'm just going to frost her out, which I feel isn't what she wants right now. This is kind of a giant sh!t test and I know it's kind of cake-eating at the same time I have to show that I'm all those things that she wants in a husband without actively sitting down and discussion our relationship and marriage. Cooking, taking care of the kids, house maintenance, that kind of stuff.
> 
> We have to spend a couple of hours today working together and I'm feeling that she is going to hit me with some stuff after our tense morning. She is at a meeting til lunch time...


Ok. I take back my statement. You don't get it. MEM is right. Get some balls, so we can kick you in them.

And remember....only because we care.

The ENTIRE point of this exercise is to frost her out! Let her choke on that frosting so she Knows that she just can't have that cake without that frosting! If you don't frost her out, and do it right, you'll end up in my situation. Wife back at home, EAing her boyfriend until you finally do get it and kick her out right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Bob, thanks... While we are not actively working on the 5 love languages per se, I am doing many of them for her to a certain degree. I feel I have to keep something between us otherwise I'm just going to frost her out, which I feel isn't what she wants right now. This is kind of a giant sh!t test and I know it's kind of cake-eating at the same time I have to show that I'm all those things that she wants in a husband without actively sitting down and discussion our relationship and marriage. Cooking, taking care of the kids, house maintenance, that kind of stuff.
> 
> We have to spend a couple of hours today working together and I'm feeling that she is going to hit me with some stuff after our tense morning. She is at a meeting til lunch time...


"I'm going to frost her out"

What does this mean?

If you want any sort of relationship with her, this is what you have to do! It's a measure of your masculine mettle. She has taken your measure in the past and has "found a soul mate" as a result while you cook and wash her damp panties for her.

This teaches her you aren't WORTH respect.

The only way to get it is to "frost her out" as you put it.

"You have to work with her?"

Is the fear I'm sensing more about your business? Because I simply don't get it.

You don't owe me jack shix. But, you owe your kids more. They need both parents intact.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Funny thing is right before the affair blew up, we both read the 5 Love Languages book and she told me her top one was Affirmation. So I've been trying to slip some affirmations in every now and then, to some positive response I think...



alphaomega said:


> Well..you have a point. But I'm making food for my kids. If my disloyal comes to the table after the fact and joins up, I'm not going to purposefully deny her actions out of spite. Spite is petty, and not manning up at all. Me...I would just keep the conversation between the kids and myself, and show her that her presence doesn't affect me negatively at all.
> 
> I've never read that book. But acts of service may not be her love language. It's not one of mine. So yes, if my SO demonstrated her love via acts of service, I wouldn't have a clue what she was up to because it would have no meaning to me whatsoever. Unless, of course, I read that book. Which, now, I have to...lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Funny thing is right before the affair blew up, we both read the 5 Love Languages book and she told me her top one was Affirmation. So I've been trying to slip some affirmations in every now and then, to some positive response I think...


You're making my ears bleed.

She was deceiving you the entire time!

The fact that you are soldiering on alone LOWERS you in her eyes. You're behaving like the same dupe she hosed down when she groped the OM in 2009!

Please wake up.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Got it! I think my message came across like I wasn't being indifferent. I am being very indifferent and it's bugging the hell out of her. I'm not actively seeking approval, but if she picks up my dry cleaning, I say thank you? Maybe I don't... Either way, whatever I'm doing is bugging the crap out of her so like said earlier I feel a major blow up coming today or soon...



alphaomega said:


> Ok. I take back my statement. You don't get it. MEM is right. Get some balls, so we can kick you in them.
> 
> And remember....only because we care.
> 
> The ENTIRE point of this exercise is to frost her out! Let her choke on that frosting so she Knows that she just can't have that cake without that frosting! If you don't frost her out, and do it right, you'll end up in my situation. Wife back at home, EAing her boyfriend until you finally do get it and kick her out right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Funny thing is right before the affair blew up, we both read the 5 Love Languages book and she told me her top one was Affirmation. So I've been trying to slip some affirmations in every now and then, to some positive response I think...


No no no no no no no no no no no no no no!

"hey wifey! You look so hot today! You are so awesome!"

"thanks doormat! I'm sure my boyfriend is going to think so too! And thanks for that compliment, even though you know I'm in an affair. Because now I know you are such a big fkn pu$$y that I can continue what I'm doing, stay in this house, and still see my boyfriend because you'll just keep pining over me until the end of days. I can do no wrong, because I'm the ALPHA, you little wimp!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad, I hear you loud and clear. 

OK, do I continue to be Mr. Frosty until she comes to me? At which time I tell her no talky until I get a commitment?

Or, do I sit her down and bring up the fact that nothing has changed in about a week and a half and time to get her moving on her way?

Old habits are hard to break. I feel like addict that keeps going back to the drug of choice. I wish there was a 12 step program for Nice Guys...



Conrad said:


> You're making my ears bleed.
> 
> She was deceiving you the entire time!
> 
> The fact that you are soldiering on alone LOWERS you in her eyes. You're behaving like the same dupe she hosed down when she groped the OM in 2009!
> 
> Please wake up.


----------



## Conrad

>>OK, do I continue to be Mr. Frosty until she comes to me? At which time I tell her no talky until I get a commitment?<<

Yes.

Can you do this? Because it's the only thing that gives you a chance at what you want.


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Funny thing is right before the affair blew up, we both read the 5 Love Languages book and she told me her top one was Affirmation. So I've been trying to slip some affirmations in every now and then, to some positive response I think...


Yeah, stop that. The affirmations are making it worse. You shouldn't be affirming anything except the necessity that she make a decision on the marriage, and soon.


----------



## Sennik

MisterNiceGuy said:


> This is exactly what is happening... we'd have hot dogs and macaroni every night... The kids need to eat healthy meals...


Have you considered using a meal planner like e-mealz.com?

It's cheap ($5/month) and has many different menus you can choose from. Not only does it have a menu for the week but includes simple recipes and even builds a store list.

It has saved this family of five a great many headaches.


----------



## AFEH

MNG, if you feel a compelling need to talk with your wife, talk about divorce. Talk about how the business is split up, the arrangements with the kids, the finances and the legal costs. Talk about selling the house and about where each of you will live.

Alternatively work all that out for yourself and then tell your wife how the divorce is going to take place.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Sennik said:


> Have you considered using a meal planner like e-mealz.com?
> 
> It's cheap ($5/month) and has many different menus you can choose from. Not only does it have a menu for the week but includes simple recipes and even builds a store list.
> 
> It has saved this family of five a great many headaches.


Wow.


----------



## Sennik

AFEH said:


> Wow.



Wow what? He says the kids are not eating healthy. I offer up a suggestion to help make things easier for him based on my experiences in this department.

Is that a problem?

Not every man suddenly finding themselves suddenly cooking regularly is aware of the resources available. Sheesh.


----------



## AFEH

Sennik said:


> Wow what Bob? He says the kids are not eating healthy. I offer up a suggestion to help make things easier for him based on my experiences in this department.
> 
> Is that a problem?
> 
> Not every man suddenly finding themselves suddenly cooking regularly is aware of the resources available. Sheesh.


Apologies if I offended Sennik. I am really traditionally “old fashioned”, still. And in that role I would have expected a woman to post help like that. And then again there are single parent families with a father and no mother, so I’m wrong again.

Then again I saw your post as a “Nice Guy” post and thought has it really gotten to that extreme.

Bob


----------



## alphaomega

AFEH said:


> Apologies if I offended Sennik. I am really traditionally “old fashioned”, still. And in that role I would have expected a woman to post help like that. And then again there are single parent families with a father and no mother, so I’m wrong again.
> 
> Then again I saw your post as a “Nice Guy” post and thought has it really gotten to that extreme.
> 
> Bob


AFEH...
As old fashion as you claim to be...your on this site, aren't you? My old man would have b&tchslapped me if I told him he should go on TAM for advise. "real men do'nt need advise from some dang old computery Thingy with that Stupid Highway it's connected to. Real men suck it up, hold it in, and bury it deep, son"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## less_disgruntled

AFEH said:


> You forget to mention the cooking. All signs of "I love you and therefore you can do what you want with me as I'll always be here".


I disagree here. If she moves out, he and the kids will have to do all the chores w/out her. Like how she'll have to do hers w/out him. If she won't pitch in while she's there, he can't have the kids living in a messy house b/c she's being childish. Of course, the kids should be taking care of a lot of this stuff but that's just how I feel.

OTOH if she tries to hand him laundry, that's different.

That, and I can tell you that after you do a task so many times you just start doing it for the hell of it. If there's garbage spilling out of the garbage can it goes out regardless of whether my wife put it there or not, regardless of whether I'm talking to her or fighting with her.


----------



## Sennik

AFEH said:


> Apologies if I offended Sennik. I am really traditionally “old fashioned”, still. And in that role I would have expected a woman to post help like that. And then again there are single parent families with a father and no mother, so I’m wrong again.
> 
> Then again I saw your post as a “Nice Guy” post and thought has it really gotten to that extreme.
> 
> Bob


Bob,
In my marriage I am most surely *not* a 'Nice Guy'. I 'personed up' (to keep up with the current verbiage here) a long LONG time ago. That doesn't mean I don't have a clue with regard to all aspects of running a household though and I'm not afraid to pipe in and freely offer suggestions when I have specific experience with a subject.

I figured you just though I was an advertisement bot


----------



## less_disgruntled

AFEH said:


> Apologies if I offended Sennik. I am really traditionally “old fashioned”, still. And in that role I would have expected a woman to post help like that. And then again there are single parent families with a father and no mother, so I’m wrong again.


I don't get what about e-mealz.com is all girly, really, but I'd be ashamed in a non-gender-specific way to admit that I had to use the internet to help me figure out what I was going to eat.

Check this out:

meat/beans/protein
starch/staple
leafy/green vegetable

Wow, it's like dinner planned itself or something.



And like I said, if MNG doesn't start to take care of the kids' eating, what with his wife wanting to move out/not move out/move out again, no one will. She's at fault here, with evidence, she definitely can not fight him and expect to get the kids. So unless your vision of divorce involves getting the kids a new mommy the moment the first one steps out, they'll be eating out of boxes for a long time.


----------



## Sennik

less_disgruntled said:


> I don't get what about e-mealz.com is all girly, really, but I'd be ashamed in a non-gender-specific way to admit that I had to use the internet to help me figure out what I was going to eat.
> 
> Check this out:
> 
> meat/beans/protein
> starch/staple
> leafy/green vegetable
> 
> Wow, it's like dinner planned itself or something.


For some families it's not that simple.

For us it's about the time it takes to make a store list that satisfies my family's dietary needs (we're Celiac's). Making sure your ingredients are gluten free week in and week out researching is a PITA and takes quite a bit of time. Using their Gluten free plan has changed making our store list from about an hour to the time it takes to print a 2-page PDF file.

...and I won't derail any the larger issue any further, just making a suggestion.


----------



## IanIronwood

Sennik said:


> Wow what? He says the kids are not eating healthy. I offer up a suggestion to help make things easier for him based on my experiences in this department.
> 
> Is that a problem?
> 
> Not every man suddenly finding themselves suddenly cooking regularly is aware of the resources available. Sheesh.


Actually, he said the kids wouldn't eat healthy if his wife cooked, so he cooks out of a sense of filial obligation towards their welfare.


----------



## IanIronwood

less_disgruntled said:


> I disagree here. If she moves out, he and the kids will have to do all the chores w/out her. Like how she'll have to do hers w/out him. If she won't pitch in while she's there, he can't have the kids living in a messy house b/c she's being childish. Of course, the kids should be taking care of a lot of this stuff but that's just how I feel.
> 
> OTOH if she tries to hand him laundry, that's different.
> 
> That, and I can tell you that after you do a task so many times you just start doing it for the hell of it. If there's garbage spilling out of the garbage can it goes out regardless of whether my wife put it there or not, regardless of whether I'm talking to her or fighting with her.


And that's key: if he's been doing the chores as a matter of course up to now, he's likely to continue because it's automatic to him now. By making a decisive effort to divide the chores evenly and then holding her to account for her share, he establishes his power -- but only if he quits doing things automatically and holds her to account for her stuff.

That's IF she's staying, that is. If she's not, then that's a different story.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

And the fact that I am a MUCH better cook than her. 



IanIronwood said:


> Actually, he said the kids wouldn't eat healthy if his wife cooked, so he cooks out of a sense of filial obligation towards their welfare.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad, OK I am Mr Frosty again... updates later today...



Conrad said:


> >>OK, do I continue to be Mr. Frosty until she comes to me? At which time I tell her no talky until I get a commitment?<<
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Can you do this? Because it's the only thing that gives you a chance at what you want.


----------



## spartan

MisterNiceGuy said:


> If I can save one marriage from my postings here, I feel I've done a great service to the world. It may be too late for mine, but maybe not yours. Stand up for yourself. Read the No More Mr. Nice Guy book and the N.U.T.s book and go from there. All you can do is give it your best shot. I wished I had found these books even weeks before my wife's EA (still pretty sure that's all it was) got out of control, it probably could've headed that off at the pass...


MNG, like you we are both going through a life changing experience. An experience that we do not know the outcome of. If you are like me, you are probably thinking "what can I do to make her fall in love with me again....?"

It is easier to almost want to sweep all this under the rug and pray that it is a bad dream that we are waking up from. Mine has ended the EA months and months ago so I have a slight variable to your situation. The end result though are questions that still plagues her which are - 
1. why did I have the EA?
2. why do I feel resentment to you?
3. how do I know after allowing myself to get this far into an EA that I wont feel like that again for someone else / wont happen again?

I don't think it's as easy as her just cutting ties with the OM. There are scars left that need to heal from BOTH ends in this regard. In my situation I know that the EA is over, we were working towards resolving and fixing our marriage now but encountering these obstacles (1-3)

So obviously it is a 2 step process- she will realize her mistake on the EA MNG. I am not worried about that, from the simple fact that she is still living with you in the same house and having family time together especially at dinner. If she was truly over you and your marriage, there would be no family dinners to speak of and no coming along to the movies... In my view it's almost as though she is asking for you to show her the way home. That's what I believe with my wife- she lost her way and it's up to you as her husband to bring her home. She has shame, embarrasment (hell, no one likes to admit that they made a huge mistake right?) and could very well still be confused about what is going on. I have read that if you start to believe in a lie it becomes reality after 21 days to you. Quite possibly she is thinking that this is "normal" you know?

I believe that I am a very strong man emotionally and that true love when it comes from deep within you can overcome these obstacles. Could we have done things better as MEN to not allow the seeds of the EA to take root? ABSOLUTELY! But we cannot change the past, just what we can do moving forward. I am over the fact that she had an EA...(been there as well previous post) but what is important to us now is HOW do we get past it? I will swallow pride at times to ensure that what is best for my FAMILY is what gets done. I would rather take an 80% relationship that is working towards 100% and keeping the family together rather than walk away because I do not have the other 20% YET.

Make any sense to anyone??


----------



## Sennik

IanIronwood said:


> Actually, he said the kids wouldn't eat healthy if his wife cooked, so he cooks out of a sense of filial obligation towards their welfare.


I see that now. I misread his original post on the issue. 

'This is exactly what is happening... we'd have hot dogs and macaroni every night'

and instead thought I saw

'This is exactly what is happening... we have hot dogs and macaroni every night'

Time to get the eyes checked.


----------



## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> AFEH...
> As old fashion as you claim to be...your on this site, aren't you? My old man would have b&tchslapped me if I told him he should go on TAM for advise. "real men do'nt need advise from some dang old computery Thingy with that Stupid Highway it's connected to. Real men suck it up, hold it in, and bury it deep, son"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No it's not me on this site ao.


----------



## alphaomega

AFEH said:


> No it's not me on this site ao.


Haha. Me either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

My situation is slightly different. Our marriage was pretty crappy over the past couple of years. Kids, Business, Lack of Money, me being a Mr. Nice Guy, etc... she was looking for emotional fulfillment somewhere else. Do I blame her, Yes and No. Yes, she went out of the marriage to find it instead of dragging my ass to a MC. No, because I really wasn't there for her. Her going outside the marriage for that far outweighs my lack of attention because if we had done counseling early enough we wouldn't be here now. 

When I was snooping on her computer (I've stopped) she was search for answers about is having an affair an OK thing to do, how do I get him to leave his wife, etc... she was very confused because none of that is good. She seems to be coming to her sense these past couple of days. It's only been 8 days since I dropped the bomb so a little space is probably still warranted. 

I know that if she accepts me and works 100% on this marriage, it will be golden. She is that type of person. Very driven and head strong. I don't have her yet and I might never...

I can tell you if I hadn't found this website, I would be way in the weeds and she would still be walking all over me.



spartan said:


> MNG, like you we are both going through a life changing experience. An experience that we do not know the outcome of. If you are like me, you are probably thinking "what can I do to make her fall in love with me again....?"
> 
> It is easier to almost want to sweep all this under the rug and pray that it is a bad dream that we are waking up from. Mine has ended the EA months and months ago so I have a slight variable to your situation. The end result though are questions that still plagues her which are -
> 1. why did I have the EA?
> 2. why do I feel resentment to you?
> 3. how do I know after allowing myself to get this far into an EA that I wont feel like that again for someone else / wont happen again?
> 
> I don't think it's as easy as her just cutting ties with the OM. There are scars left that need to heal from BOTH ends in this regard. In my situation I know that the EA is over, we were working towards resolving and fixing our marriage now but encountering these obstacles (1-3)
> 
> So obviously it is a 2 step process- she will realize her mistake on the EA MNG. I am not worried about that, from the simple fact that she is still living with you in the same house and having family time together especially at dinner. If she was truly over you and your marriage, there would be no family dinners to speak of and no coming along to the movies... In my view it's almost as though she is asking for you to show her the way home. That's what I believe with my wife- she lost her way and it's up to you as her husband to bring her home. She has shame, embarrasment (hell, no one likes to admit that they made a huge mistake right?) and could very well still be confused about what is going on. I have read that if you start to believe in a lie it becomes reality after 21 days to you. Quite possibly she is thinking that this is "normal" you know?
> 
> I believe that I am a very strong man emotionally and that true love when it comes from deep within you can overcome these obstacles. Could we have done things better as MEN to not allow the seeds of the EA to take root? ABSOLUTELY! But we cannot change the past, just what we can do moving forward. I am over the fact that she had an EA...(been there as well previous post) but what is important to us now is HOW do we get past it? I will swallow pride at times to ensure that what is best for my FAMILY is what gets done. I would rather take an 80% relationship that is working towards 100% and keeping the family together rather than walk away because I do not have the other 20% YET.
> 
> Make any sense to anyone??


----------



## MEM2020

One more time. 

When she behaves responsibly you politely thank her like she is an EMPLOYEE or business partner. A simple THANK YOU. That is it. Don't get cute and use that as an opportunity to make conversation. "Oh honey, I hope the line at the dry cleaners wasn't long". If you do that - you are basically saying: "I love you even though you have been and likely still are having an EA". In fact I love you unconditionally so do what ever your little heart desires. 

She will only stop cake eating when you freeze her out, she escalates and threatens to leave and you just shrug as if you could not care less. And she is LIKELY to do that 2-3 times in a row because she thinks you are week BECAUSE you keep showing her weakness. If you stay strong she will simply implode into a hysterical mass of emotion and cry. Worked perfect on you last time. She cried and you comforted. She then proceeded to tell you how much you suck and DICTATE TERMS to you. So program yourself. When you see her crying you walk through the room like she is not even there. 





MisterNiceGuy said:


> Got it! I think my message came across like I wasn't being indifferent. I am being very indifferent and it's bugging the hell out of her. I'm not actively seeking approval, but if she picks up my dry cleaning, I say thank you? Maybe I don't... Either way, whatever I'm doing is bugging the crap out of her so like said earlier I feel a major blow up coming today or soon...


----------



## less_disgruntled

MEM11363 said:


> She will only stop cake eating when you freeze her out, she escalates and threatens to leave and you just shrug as if you could not care less. And she is LIKELY to do that 2-3 times in a row because she thinks you are week BECAUSE you keep showing her weakness. If you stay strong she will simply implode into a hysterical mass of emotion and cry. Worked perfect on you last time. She cried and you comforted. She then proceeded to tell you how much you suck and DICTATE TERMS to you. So program yourself. When you see her crying you walk through the room like she is not even there.


Off-topic, but are there marriages where partners aren't constantly engaged in manipulation and control struggles like this? Or would that be more like living with a sibling?


----------



## Conrad

>>She seems to be coming to her sense these past couple of days.<<

STOP

STOP

STOP

STOP

STOP

She is doing nothing of the kind. She is fitness testing you and you aren't passing them.

Listen to MEM.


----------



## IanIronwood

less_disgruntled said:


> Off-topic, but are there marriages where partners aren't constantly engaged in manipulation and control struggles like this? Or would that be more like living with a sibling?


Sure, but only when both parties have made a concerted effort to work out their crap. It's not easy. It takes a lot of work, prep, and consideration, and then half the time you still screw it up. But I have an incredible happy marriage where the manipulation is all blatant and accepted cheerfully. If there's a problem, we have SOPs to fall back on.


----------



## IanIronwood

Conrad said:


> >>She seems to be coming to her sense these past couple of days.<<
> 
> STOP
> 
> STOP
> 
> STOP
> 
> STOP
> 
> STOP
> 
> She is doing nothing of the kind. She is fitness testing you and you aren't passing them.
> 
> Listen to MEM.



Yeah. False sense of security. She's waiting until your guard is down, and guess what? When you say things like "she seems to be coming around", your guard is down. Since I abhor sports metaphors, I'll use a military one: Consider this a war. You are both employing strategy and tactics, deception, camoflage, etc. etc. to gain advantage. Only you've got your finger on the nuke button, and she's crazy scared you'll push it, so while she's temporarily backed down she's just regrouping in preparation for trying a new tactic. Be prepared. Be wary. Don't engage.

You'll know when she's capitulated. That will be sometime _after_ she's made an official commitment to the marriage, and _after_ she's broken down over and over again. But you can't be sympathetic, even in your heart. Because if you're thinking, "Damn, this must be hard for her -- I fell her pain!" then she can tell you're thinking it. So stop it. Until she's not just made a commitment to the marriage, but convinced you of her sincerity, you can't give an _inch_ until then. 

So more "polite" talk, more accusations and guilt-flinging, more "you made me do this!", more threats to leave, more threats to destroy the business, more disrespect, etc. etc. Until all of that crap stops, she's not serious.

Just be prepared for her A-Bomb. I doubt she'll have the guts to use it, but if she gets desperate . . .


----------



## greenpearl

IanIronwood said:


> Hey, as long as she's ready for sex to my satisfaction, I'm more than happy to take care of the house. If the nookie stops, though, my house starts looking rough. A man can put up with quite a bit if he's sexually happy, and there's nothing unmanly about housework.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Men are so easy to conquer, just give him pu$$$...........................

But in the sex section, a lot of women don't know that, isn't this funny........................?


----------



## greenpearl

IanIronwood said:


> Not in America, not any more. Most women of my generation can't cook past the microwave level. Most fellas, on the other hand, spent some time in a restaurant kitchen at some point. Cooking (and all housework) in America is now a shared responsibility in most households, although that's a matter of some debate.
> 
> I view cooking as an expression of domestic control, not of service, _per se_. My wife cooking for her family would _not_ be a loving expression. More like something she'd do if she was mad at us. And the idea that women are natural cooks and men aren't just isn't true.


Don't you men wish to go back to the old age, have loving wives cooking you nice dinner everyday? 

Actually women of my age in Taiwan don't cook either(at my school, there are 20 female teachers, only I cook), they just go to cheap restaurants and buy take out food, greasy and unhealthy! But women in Taiwan still do most of the housework at home even though they have full time jobs too. They do the laundry and look after the kids. 

My mother-in-law and sister-in-law cook, I think their husbands are lucky men, they buy fresh meat and vegetables from supermarkets, and they cook everyday, two meals or three meals. But they are Johannah's witnesses, witness women are taught to be submissive, they are taught that they should look after the household, their places are very neat and clean. Men are taught to be loving, and they have to provide. My husband's married cousins don't want their wives to work, the wives only need to stay at home to tend the house and the garden, the men work and provide. 

Is this ideal?????


I view cooking a loving gesture. Chinese women are taught there are two ways to conquer your men, one is through sex and the other one is through his stomach. If women want their men to be babies to them, they have to master these two skills. Unfortunately, a lot of women don't listen to this advice anymore. I didn't know how to cook before I got married, my husband thought that I didn't know how to cook and I wasn't interested in cooking. I didn't like cooking, be honest with you. But after we bought our apartment and we have a kitchen, I started cooking. Seeing my husband so happy eating my home cooked meal, it makes me happy. After so many years of practicing, cooking become so easy and enjoyable. My husband knows my personality, when I want to be lazy, he won't let me. But he does the dishes and laundry, if he has to do the other things, I can't find excuses to be lazy! But very often I need him to be strict with me, or I will become slack.


----------



## MEM2020

*Lmao*

Yes there are. Ogeesh has one. And it works very well for him and his W. 

All I can tell you is what I know directly. My W and I have a LOT of playful, fun, high skill friction. And that is hot. It isn't dishonest. And it isn't (mostly) mean. It is passionate. 

She says what she wants. In fact I would describe her as brutally direct. Mostly I say what I want. If either of us (deep sigh) is more "manipulative" that would be me. But mostly I am direct. Works much better. 

I would say my W and I are very skilled at meeting each others needs. Because of that our friction (banter, wrestling, competing at games) is "intentional". 



less_disgruntled said:


> Off-topic, but are there marriages where partners aren't constantly engaged in manipulation and control struggles like this? Or would that be more like living with a sibling?


----------



## greenpearl

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I used to ask her what she would like for dinner but she forfeited that when she wanted to separate and live downstairs.


I find you to be tooooooooooooooooo nice, stop doing this!

You have changed the roles in the house. She is supposed to be the one asking you what you like to eat!


----------



## Conrad

*Re: Lmao*



MEM11363 said:


> Yes there are. Ogeesh has one. And it works very well for him and his W.
> 
> All I can tell you is what I know directly. My W and I have a LOT of playful, fun, high skill friction. And that is hot. It isn't dishonest. And it isn't (mostly) mean. It is passionate.
> 
> She says what she wants. In fact I would describe her as brutally direct. Mostly I say what I want. If either of us (deep sigh) is more "manipulative" that would be me. But mostly I am direct. Works much better.
> 
> I would say my W and I are very skilled at meeting each others needs. Because of that our friction (banter, wrestling, competing at games) is "intentional".


I'll be willing to wager you're more "manipulative" (if you can call it that) in what you don't say.


----------



## greenpearl

*Re: Lmao*



MEM11363 said:


> Yes there are. Ogeesh has one. And it works very well for him and his W.
> 
> All I can tell you is what I know directly. My W and I have a LOT of playful, fun, high skill friction. And that is hot. It isn't dishonest. And it isn't (mostly) mean. It is passionate.
> 
> She says what she wants. In fact I would describe her as brutally direct. Mostly I say what I want. If either of us (deep sigh) is more "manipulative" that would be me. But mostly I am direct. Works much better.
> 
> I would say my W and I are very skilled at meeting each others needs. Because of that our friction (banter, wrestling, competing at games) is "intentional".


Be honest with you, I still don't think that confliction can bring a couple enjoyment, but if you like it, why not? 

At the beginning of our marriage, it is understandable that we fight and argue, because we don't know each other well and we need to understand each other through misunderstanding and fights.

After a couples of years, men and women should find out what each other like and don't like. Do what they like and don't do what they don't like! It doesn't happen. People like confliction! They find it exciting!


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## MisterNiceGuy

Nothing much to report here. Wife pleasant if distant. I'm Mr. Frosty...

One thing I wanted to ask... I was going to go out with a friend of mine tonight for beers and burgers but he had to cancel. I would still like to go out and get away from the house, but isn't that kind of lame to go out and eat and have a couple of beers by myself or go to a movie or something?


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Nothing much to report here. Wife pleasant if distant. I'm Mr. Frosty...
> 
> One thing I wanted to ask... I was going to go out with a friend of mine tonight for beers and burgers but he had to cancel. I would still like to go out and get away from the house, but isn't that kind of lame to go out and eat and have a couple of beers by myself or go to a movie or something?


Go and meet some people.

I'm sure you still know how to do that.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Conrad said:


> Go and meet some people.
> 
> I'm sure you still know how to do that.


I can testify that being out on your own for an evening is a lot less lame than sitting at home with someone who's mistreating you, when you have no desire to be near that person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Nothing much to report here. Wife pleasant if distant. I'm Mr. Frosty...
> 
> One thing I wanted to ask... I was going to go out with a friend of mine tonight for beers and burgers but he had to cancel. I would still like to go out and get away from the house, but isn't that kind of lame to go out and eat and have a couple of beers by myself or go to a movie or something?


No, it’s not lame. You’ll find it’ll give you a different perspective on things. Just observe people and enjoy being by yourself plus it’ll give you some different perspectives and you’ll be away for a while from the dynamics with your wife plus it’ll be something different to your normal routine.

Bob


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## MEM2020

*friction*

GP,
Friendly teasing, wrestling, competing etc. are very different than arguing. Arguing is often tiresome. 




greenpearl said:


> Be honest with you, I still don't think that confliction can bring a couple enjoyment, but if you like it, why not?
> 
> At the beginning of our marriage, it is understandable that we fight and argue, because we don't know each other well and we need to understand each other through misunderstanding and fights.
> 
> After a couples of years, men and women should find out what each other like and don't like. Do what they like and don't do what they don't like! It doesn't happen. People like confliction! They find it exciting!


----------



## greenpearl

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Nothing much to report here. Wife pleasant if distant. I'm Mr. Frosty...
> 
> One thing I wanted to ask... I was going to go out with a friend of mine tonight for beers and burgers but he had to cancel. I would still like to go out and get away from the house, but isn't that kind of lame to go out and eat and have a couple of beers by myself or go to a movie or something?


Do you live in a big city? 

How about going to a strip club? 

a lot of fun there. I love it! 

Sorry, I am just being silly and giving you silly ideas!


----------



## greenpearl

*Re: friction*



MEM11363 said:


> GP,
> Friendly teasing, wrestling, competing etc. are very different than arguing. Arguing is often tiresome.


I always think " conflict is arguing ". Forgive me for speaking a different language here!  I don't like arguing! 

I like teasing and friendly insulting!  My husband and I go back and forth against each other all the time! It is very enjoyable, and I think it is important for marriages! Keeps our heart stay young!


----------



## IanIronwood

By all means, hit the road. Don't mention where you're going, just make sure you look really, really sharp and you aren't wearing your wedding ring when you leave.

You can probably Google a dozen different things going on in your town tonight, from live music to lecture series to sporting events. So make a radical departure from the last decade or so and DO SOMETHING YOU WANNA DO JUST 'CAUSE YOU WANNA DO IT. You have interests that she's likely been discouraging, or at least she doesn't share your enthusiasm for them. Indulge them for a change. Whether its a 3 Stooges marathon at the local college campus or a skanky strip club on the edge of town, go out and entertain yourself. 

And while you're out, make it a point to introduce yourself to three women. Nothing drastic, just hey, I'm Mister Nice Guy, howya doin'? What's your name?

You aren't trying to pick up anyone, so put that out of your mind. What you're doing is reintroducing yourself to the concept of you as an individual, not as part of a social unit. You're also boosting your battered self-esteem and reminding yourself of the days before you met your wife, when you were "on the hunt". 

You aren't on the hunt yet, but there's no reason you shouldn't sharpen your claws, is there? Meet a couple of pretty women and remember what it was like. Get some personal perspective. Consider the possibilities, in abstract. Freely admit that you're married (that will kill most women's pursuit right there), but practice being friendly, flirtatious, and communicative. Believe me, spend fifteen minutes of good-natured flirting with a woman you know you aren't going to go home with, and watch how quickly your self-esteem inflates. And she'll notice it, too, and it will scare her. 

But more importantly, it will strengthen your self-image as your own man. After all, you aren't looking for an emotional affair, or even a physical affair, you're looking for some perspective and some confidence. Part of your wife's power over you is sexual, that is, she's not only been denying and rejecting you for a while, she's likely systematically undermined your self-confidence over the years, making you feel as if you wouldn't have any native appeal to other women. 

Just stay out of the hotel bars out by the airport. Those chicks will eat you alive.


----------



## alphaomega

IanIronwood said:


> By all means, hit the road. Don't mention where you're going, just make sure you look really, really sharp and you aren't wearing your wedding ring when you leave.
> 
> You can probably Google a dozen different things going on in your town tonight, from live music to lecture series to sporting events. So make a radical departure from the last decade or so and DO SOMETHING YOU WANNA DO JUST 'CAUSE YOU WANNA DO IT. You have interests that she's likely been discouraging, or at least she doesn't share your enthusiasm for them. Indulge them for a change. Whether its a 3 Stooges marathon at the local college campus or a skanky strip club on the edge of town, go out and entertain yourself.
> 
> And while you're out, make it a point to introduce yourself to three women. Nothing drastic, just hey, I'm Mister Nice Guy, howya doin'? What's your name?
> 
> You aren't trying to pick up anyone, so put that out of your mind. What you're doing is reintroducing yourself to the concept of you as an individual, not as part of a social unit. You're also boosting your battered self-esteem and reminding yourself of the days before you met your wife, when you were "on the hunt".
> 
> You aren't on the hunt yet, but there's no reason you shouldn't sharpen your claws, is there? Meet a couple of pretty women and remember what it was like. Get some personal perspective. Consider the possibilities, in abstract. Freely admit that you're married (that will kill most women's pursuit right there), but practice being friendly, flirtatious, and communicative. Believe me, spend fifteen minutes of good-natured flirting with a woman you know you aren't going to go home with, and watch how quickly your self-esteem inflates. And she'll notice it, too, and it will scare her.
> 
> But more importantly, it will strengthen your self-image as your own man. After all, you aren't looking for an emotional affair, or even a physical affair, you're looking for some perspective and some confidence. Part of your wife's power over you is sexual, that is, she's not only been denying and rejecting you for a while, she's likely systematically undermined your self-confidence over the years, making you feel as if you wouldn't have any native appeal to other women.
> 
> Just stay out of the hotel bars out by the airport. Those chicks will eat you alive.


Yes. Don't drink too much and try to pick anyone up. It's not healthy....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Alone time can be very therapeutic. Go for it, be selfish!


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## IanIronwood

Any updates, MNG?


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## MisterNiceGuy

Nothing really, now that the initial shock of the affair being blown is fast subsiding, we are falling into a routine of sorts. We are both working and I did go out last night so I didn't see her all day yesterday and she was out the door early this morning for work and I am working out of the house. When I have seen her she is pleasant and wanting to engage me more and I'm still Frosty.

I talked for along time with the OMW yesterday and she said her husband had no idea that this was becoming such a big thing. Based on the evidence and stories from OMW that this thing was pretty one sided and it was my wife that was doing most of the pursuing and somewhere about a month ago, just feel deeply in love with this guy and it seemed to happen over night. Anyway, she's got him on a short leash for a long time. I know, I know until my wife comes clean, I'll never know the depths of the affair...

See the therapist tomorrow. Wife saw him yesterday so maybe there will be some insights there, but now I see how these things can drag out so long. The wounds are still fresh... still lots of anger here...


----------



## Conrad

Are you in yoga class?


----------



## Powerbane

You do know that the OM is lying through his teeth to save his hide, don't you? I think you do. 

So - how's the yoga?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Powerbane said:


> You do know that the OM is lying through his teeth to save his hide, don't you? I think you do.
> 
> So - how's the yoga?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good point.

OM got caught trying to score some extra curricular tail.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> Are you in yoga class?


starts on Monday
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> starts on Monday
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kick some ass.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Major setback... picked up my wife's iphone... she had stupidly left her email account up. She had set up a secret gmail account. She sent this guy an email about wanting to work it out with me, but she is cake eating! Secret emails to him and tell him she wants to work it out with me! WTF? Arrgghh!

How do I shut this down? Spill the beans to her? Tell the OMW again?!?!? I see how this affair stuff is an addiction... she can't seem to beat it...


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## MEM2020

Ignore it. Stay frosty. Don't mention it at all. Snooping makes you look "needy". Polite and friendly but cold. NAIL those dinner conversations with the kids. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Major setback... picked up my wife's iphone... she had stupidly left her email account up. She had set up a secret gmail account. She sent this guy an email about wanting to work it out with me, but she is cake eating! Secret emails to him and tell him she wants to work it out with me! WTF? Arrgghh!
> 
> How do I shut this down? Spill the beans to her? Tell the OMW again?!?!? I see how this affair stuff is an addiction... she can't seem to beat it...


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Major setback... picked up my wife's iphone... she had stupidly left her email account up. She had set up a secret gmail account. She sent this guy an email about wanting to work it out with me, but she is cake eating! Secret emails to him and tell him she wants to work it out with me! WTF? Arrgghh!
> 
> How do I shut this down? Spill the beans to her? Tell the OMW again?!?!? I see how this affair stuff is an addiction... she can't seem to beat it...


MNG, you are not that much of a cynic as yet. You didn’t consider that your wife left her iphone open and email account up BECAUSE SHE WANTED YOU TO READ IT! Much the same as leaving her journal open.

So if that is the case, that she did want you to read it, the question is Why?.

The only answer I can think of is that she wants you to believe that she’s told OM that she wants to work on her marriage with you. But that is not what she has really told OM.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

It's almost like she wants me to find this stuff. She is so sloppy. Like a cry for help. Just for the hell of it I checked phone records and sure enough they talked yesterday for 17 minutes and sent a few texts to each other. I have a therapy session today I'm really thinking about telling him the whole thing because she told me last week he was the one that got to her and made her really stop.

I honestly don't think she is conciuosly leaving this stuff around for me to read. I really think she thinks she can ttry and work it out with me and be friends with this guy. It's like watching a slow motion train wreck and you can't do anything about it. 



AFEH said:


> MNG, you are not that much of a cynic as yet. You didn’t consider that your wife left her iphone open and email account up BECAUSE SHE WANTED YOU TO READ IT! Much the same as leaving her journal open.
> 
> So if that is the case, that she did want you to read it, the question is Why?.
> 
> The only answer I can think of is that she wants you to believe that she’s told OM that she wants to work on her marriage with you. But that is not what she has really told OM.
> 
> Bob


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Johnny

MNG, I think you are not clear about your situation. You either live in a relationship, that means, she apologizes, no-contact agreement and you both commit to moving on, or you are seperated and just living under the same roof. In that case she can talk or mail to whoever she wants.
At the moment I get the impression, that she thinks, she is seperated and you act like living in a relationship. You both will have to find an agreement wether there is a relationship or not and then act accordingly

Johnny


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> It's almost like she wants me to find this stuff. She is so sloppy. Like a cry for help. Just for the hell of it I checked phone records and sure enough they talked yesterday for 17 minutes and sent a few texts to each other. I have a therapy session today I'm really thinking about telling him the whole thing because she told me last week he was the one that got to her and made her really stop.
> 
> I honestly don't think she is conciuosly leaving this stuff around for me to read. I really think she thinks she can ttry and work it out with me and be friends with this guy. It's like watching a slow motion train wreck and you can't do anything about it.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What will it take for you to believe she is a liar?


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> What will it take for you to believe she is a liar?


A decade.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Hell, I know that! I guess it's just so depressing...



Conrad said:


> What will it take for you to believe she is a liar?


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Hell, I know that! I guess it's just so depressing...


Then act like you know it.


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## MisterNiceGuy

I know all this... I've been waiting for her to come to me with talk of the R, but I can't wait anymore and we have to have a talk (not about her latest transgressions) about what is going on here. It's been 6 days since we've talk separation (the last time), as in her moving out, but she is still living downstairs like an in-house separation and it's driving me nuts. These guys here are telling me she's got come to me and capitulate completely in order for this thing to work, but having her in this house living with us and not trying to work on this marriage just burns me.



Johnny said:


> MNG, I think you are not clear about your situation. You either live in a relationship, that means, she apologizes, no-contact agreement and you both commit to moving on, or you are seperated and just living under the same roof. In that case she can talk or mail to whoever she wants.
> At the moment I get the impression, that she thinks, she is seperated and you act like living in a relationship. You both will have to find an agreement wether there is a relationship or not and then act accordingly
> 
> Johnny


----------



## MEM2020

Of course this is taking a while. You keep raising the temperature with "normal" conversation, and lots of other little signs of reassurance. If you would simply let her get into a bad place and come apart at the seams this would be over. 

I will say this. Your childrens mother is currently mentally "disturbed" by her affair. If YOU approach her, you are basically initiating the equivalent of a divorce. Because the very fact of you approaching her is going to make her think she deserves better than you. For your kids sake - suck it up. 

If you really feel the need to accelerate the process, put together a "note" with ground rules for being 'separated' while living together. Include the bit about "you are both FREE to date, and YOU MNG will begin dating immediately". 

THAT will create intense discomfort and then likely a meltdown. If you deal with the meltdown as you have been advised many times, it will likely become complete. At that point she will come to you. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> I know all this... I've been waiting for her to come to me with talk of the R, but I can't wait anymore and we have to have a talk (not about her latest transgressions) about what is going on here. It's been 6 days since we've talk separation (the last time), as in her moving out, but she is still living downstairs like an in-house separation and it's driving me nuts. These guys here are telling me she's got come to me and capitulate completely in order for this thing to work, but having her in this house living with us and not trying to work on this marriage just burns me.


----------



## alphaomega

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I know all this... I've been waiting for her to come to me with talk of the R, but I can't wait anymore and we have to have a talk (not about her latest transgressions) about what is going on here. It's been 6 days since we've talk separation (the last time), as in her moving out, but she is still living downstairs like an in-house separation and it's driving me nuts. These guys here are telling me she's got come to me and capitulate completely in order for this thing to work, but having her in this house living with us and not trying to work on this marriage just burns me.


MNG...

Your making the mistake in your head that this is going to happen really fast, like in a few days, because your being frosty. It doesn't work that way. First off, if she's in the fog, even if she truly does want to work on the relationship on some subconscious level, it's going o take time to come back down to reality. This doesn't happen in 6days. If your really fortunate, maybe a month. Affair average...about 3 months. The best path for her to get that slap across the head that this is real and not fantasy land...the longer the better, but of course not too long. This gives her brain time to realize fully that this isn't a game. Can you truly commit to being frost for a month, maybe three? She has to come to you, remember, also. You can't call her up in a month and at the first sight of her tears, rush into her arms. She has to come to you!

From your current track record....your going to capitulate to her the first tear you see. Thinking it's a step forward. Don't go there! Not only does she need to feel true remorse for her actions, but YOU need to be at the state of mind where you believe her, and start to trust her, and actually have the strength in yourself to constructively move forward.

The iPhone wasn't a NEW setback...it's the same setback still playing out. She hasn't come down from her fog yet.

Also, if they are chatting it up for 20 minutes, then you have to ask what are they talking about. If I was the OM, and I just got reamed out by my wife because some married girl is obsessed with me...and almost caused my divorce...I wouldn't be on the phone with her. I would be filing for a restraining order. So...the story from the OM to the OMW is exactly what it appears...a lie. He got caught and is minimizing the fallout in his own household.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> Of course this is taking a while. You keep raising the temperature with "normal" conversation, and lots of other little signs of reassurance. If you would simply let her get into a bad place and come apart at the seams this would be over.
> 
> I will say this. Your childrens mother is currently mentally "disturbed" by her affair. If YOU approach her, you are basically initiating the equivalent of a divorce. Because the very fact of you approaching her is going to make her think she deserves better than you. For your kids sake - suck it up.
> 
> If you really feel the need to accelerate the process, put together a "note" with ground rules for being 'separated' while living together. Include the bit about "you are both FREE to date, and YOU MNG will begin dating immediately".
> 
> THAT will create intense discomfort and then likely a meltdown. If you deal with the meltdown as you have been advised many times, it will likely become complete. At that point she will come to you.


MNG,

For your children's sake, please set aside the weak parts of yourself that continue to work against you.

She needs to see that the violin she's played is irretrievably broken. The old music simply will not come out anymore.


----------



## alphaomega

Ahhh. Looks like MEM wrote the same type of response. Thanks MEM!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

And Conrad! Thanks also!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neil

I would suggest you actually grow 2 pair of balls...

put in place what MEM ond Conrad are saying, and then when she rips off the first pair when you go running, you can wave the other pair IN HER FACE!!!


----------



## spartan

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I know all this... I've been waiting for her to come to me with talk of the R, but I can't wait anymore and we have to have a talk (not about her latest transgressions) about what is going on here. It's been 6 days since we've talk separation (the last time), as in her moving out, but she is still living downstairs like an in-house separation and it's driving me nuts. These guys here are telling me she's got come to me and capitulate completely in order for this thing to work, but having her in this house living with us and not trying to work on this marriage just burns me.


(again, similar situation) when you feel this way what worked for me was to just get out of the house for an hour or two- go to the mall and window shop if you dont want to spend any $. SMILE at all the females you see and chances are some will actually smile back to you! 

What I have learned and what makes perfect sense to me is that *I* needed to be a "confident, happy and FUN guy to be around." Being frosty in my mind never worked. There is a difference in being confident and being a jerk. Difference in being scared of the future and being optimistic of great things to come in your life.
Let her see that you are willing, able and EXCITED about moving on if that becomes the reality. Completely turn the situation around and let her know that while yes you do want to keep the marriage, you are not willing to accept less than a 100% commitment from her. If she cannot commit 100% right now then she really needs to go. The reason she needs to go is that you need to go on with your life and start planning for your future happiness with potentially YOUR NEW WIFE. 
Reiterate what it is that makes YOU happy and the resolve that YOU have to find that happiness. If she cannot commit to 100% right now by cutting off all ties with the OM then let her know without question that you will be out looking for your happiness. Tell her "when you do finally come to your senses understand that I may not be there for you to return to." The only way for her to believe you is that if you truly believe in that yourself. What's the worst case that happens here MNG? You lose a non-committed partner that wasn't yours to hold anymore and you actually find someone younger, more attractive, smarter, and COMMITTED to you??

Like Athol says and I wholeheartedly agree- us GOOD MEN are much more in demand than cheaters. Plenty of women are out there who are going through the same situation we are where their husbands cheated on them and are looking for good men..... not much of a market for a 40+ divorcee who cannot hold on to a commitment to their husbands.

She is confused MNG, if she wasn't she would never be civil to you anymore. It takes a lot to end a marriage especially one with so many years invested in it and children. Like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry says - "ending relationships is like tipping a soda machine, you cant just push it once and expect it to fall over... you need to rock it back and forth a lot to have it fall". 

Let's be honest here- you want her back and have the marriage BETTER than it ever was. She really doesn't want to leave you for that man. She is not a 19 year old girl that doesn't know the way of the world. She knows that her life will not be the same if you she leaves and breaks up the OM's family as well. She is smart enough to know that deep down inside that Hallmark and Disney movies are not always true. There is no perfect fairy tale Hollywood romance where every day is roses and champagne and "soulmate" love. People looking for "soulmates" in my opinion are people that are half empty looking for another half empty person to create 1 complete person.

MNG, this is something that YOU cannot fix. It is out of your control and quite honestly something that she needs to work out in her mind. The quicker that you actually believe this then the quicker you can move on to the next step of your life. 

Make yourself into the man that you want to be. Nothing perfect, but a man that is confident, happy and fun to be around. I am sure that once she sees that in you her love meter will swing back into your favor. Then when she does come back it will be on your terms.


----------



## Conrad

One that is happy, confident, fun to be around and NOT NEEDY.

Any talk of the relationship - initiated by you - reinforces NEEDY.


----------



## MEM2020

Spartan,
If you think "frosty" equals jerky you completely fail to understand the concept of frosty. ALL the stuff you write is great - except she gets nothing but polite indifference until she DECIDES to commit. Projecting a happy, upbeat vibe in her presence is different than projecting it AT her. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. 




spartan said:


> (again, similar situation) when you feel this way what worked for me was to just get out of the house for an hour or two- go to the mall and window shop if you dont want to spend any $. SMILE at all the females you see and chances are some will actually smile back to you!
> 
> What I have learned and what makes perfect sense to me is that *I* needed to be a "confident, happy and FUN guy to be around." Being frosty in my mind never worked. There is a difference in being confident and being a jerk. Difference in being scared of the future and being optimistic of great things to come in your life.
> Let her see that you are willing, able and EXCITED about moving on if that becomes the reality. Completely turn the situation around and let her know that while yes you do want to keep the marriage, you are not willing to accept less than a 100% commitment from her. If she cannot commit 100% right now then she really needs to go. The reason she needs to go is that you need to go on with your life and start planning for your future happiness with potentially YOUR NEW WIFE.
> Reiterate what it is that makes YOU happy and the resolve that YOU have to find that happiness. If she cannot commit to 100% right now by cutting off all ties with the OM then let her know without question that you will be out looking for your happiness. Tell her "when you do finally come to your senses understand that I may not be there for you to return to." The only way for her to believe you is that if you truly believe in that yourself. What's the worst case that happens here MNG? You lose a non-committed partner that wasn't yours to hold anymore and you actually find someone younger, more attractive, smarter, and COMMITTED to you??
> 
> Like Athol says and I wholeheartedly agree- us GOOD MEN are much more in demand than cheaters. Plenty of women are out there who are going through the same situation we are where their husbands cheated on them and are looking for good men..... not much of a market for a 40+ divorcee who cannot hold on to a commitment to their husbands.
> 
> She is confused MNG, if she wasn't she would never be civil to you anymore. It takes a lot to end a marriage especially one with so many years invested in it and children. Like the Seinfeld episode where Jerry says - "ending relationships is like tipping a soda machine, you cant just push it once and expect it to fall over... you need to rock it back and forth a lot to have it fall".
> 
> Let's be honest here- you want her back and have the marriage BETTER than it ever was. She really doesn't want to leave you for that man. She is not a 19 year old girl that doesn't know the way of the world. She knows that her life will not be the same if you she leaves and breaks up the OM's family as well. She is smart enough to know that deep down inside that Hallmark and Disney movies are not always true. There is no perfect fairy tale Hollywood romance where every day is roses and champagne and "soulmate" love. People looking for "soulmates" in my opinion are people that are half empty looking for another half empty person to create 1 complete person.
> 
> MNG, this is something that YOU cannot fix. It is out of your control and quite honestly something that she needs to work out in her mind. The quicker that you actually believe this then the quicker you can move on to the next step of your life.
> 
> Make yourself into the man that you want to be. Nothing perfect, but a man that is confident, happy and fun to be around. I am sure that once she sees that in you her love meter will swing back into your favor. Then when she does come back it will be on your terms.


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## spartan

Conrad said:


> One that is happy, confident, fun to be around and NOT NEEDY.
> 
> Any talk of the relationship - initiated by you - reinforces NEEDY.


EXACTLY!!

A. I need you in my life to survive otherwise I would never be able to breathe again

B. I don't need you in my life to survive, rather I want you in my life to make things happier

If you ask anyone here, I think everyone would go for option B.


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## MEM2020

At this point she knows he wants her in his life. Any reinforcement of that message at this point is HURTING the chances for success. In fact I think he needs to start subtle signalling that he is moving ahead with or without her. And doing so without encouraging HER to do anything. 





spartan said:


> EXACTLY!!
> 
> A. I need you in my life to survive otherwise I would never be able to breathe again
> 
> B. I don't need you in my life to survive, rather I want you in my life to make things happier
> 
> If you ask anyone here, I think everyone would go for option B.


----------



## spartan

MEM11363 said:


> Spartan,
> If you think "frosty" equals jerky you completely fail to understand the concept of frosty. ALL the stuff you write is great - except she gets nothing but polite indifference until she DECIDES to commit. Projecting a happy, upbeat vibe in her presence is different than projecting it AT her. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.


Well isn't that the crux of his problem here? She does need to decide to commit to him... no? What I was saying is that being a jerk only pushes her closer to the OM. Imagine that talk - "he is such a jerk to me! OM- baby, you know I would never treat you like that....." 

We can never change anyone's free will. I would never want my wife to stay with me for the wrong reasons such as security, comfort, habit.... Stay because you see me as a strong, confident, happy, take on the world type of man. See me as a man that is willing to fight for his family and defend it against all outsiders such as this OM. 

Please never take my polite indifference as a form of weakness in this regard. I am at that stage that I stated in my previous post. I am ready to move on if I need to and find my happiness, however, I do know that unless she completely comes to terms with her EA and the dissolution of that EA then she can never be in a position to completely commit 100% to me. Rather have her see the ultimatum rather than listen to me telling her the ultimatum. If she comes to terms on her own then you will know that she did came to terms with it in her mind and that there are no regrets to committing 100% to you. Much more stable platform to begin repairing the R and building it stronger in the future.


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## spartan

MEM11363 said:


> At this point she knows he wants her in his life. Any reinforcement of that message at this point is HURTING the chances for success. In fact I think he needs to start subtle signalling that he is moving ahead with or without her. And doing so without encouraging HER to do anything.


completely agreed. MNG, start to live your life again for you. Want to throw her for a loop? Set up a dating profile and "sloppily" leave it open for her to see it on your computer. But if you do these things, the key is actually following through with them though.


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I know all this... I've been waiting for her to come to me with talk of the R, but I can't wait anymore and we have to have a talk (not about her latest transgressions) about what is going on here. It's been 6 days since we've talk separation (the last time), as in her moving out, but she is still living downstairs like an in-house separation and it's driving me nuts. These guys here are telling me she's got come to me and capitulate completely in order for this thing to work, but having her in this house living with us and not trying to work on this marriage just burns me.


Endure. Part of manning up is exhibiting control and discipline, especially over your emotions.


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## MEM2020

Spartan,
I knew you were well named.




spartan said:


> completely agreed. MNG, start to live your life again for you. Want to throw her for a loop? Set up a dating profile and "sloppily" leave it open for her to see it on your computer. But if you do these things, the key is actually following through with them though.


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## IanIronwood

I agree, more frost, less angst. And no more snooping, if you can help it. She's leaving those crumbs around to act as a back-channel method of communication, like leaving your window open so the neighbors can watch you undress. So what she's doing, in effect, is talking to you (and manipulating you) without giving you the opportunity to respond or to hold her to account. That means that she can twist you up with anxiety about how she "really feels", then hit you with her hard demands while you're being concerned about her and the marriage. It's duplicitous. Worse, it's giving her the initiative, and she's going to use it to cream you if you let her. I mean, how valuable would it be for you to have a secret conduit of information directly into her brain, without giving her the opportunity to defend? It'd be sweet, wouldn't it?

SO don't give her the opportunity. If she has something to say to you, make her say it to you directly, so she can be held to account for it. You can't get mad at stuff that you don't know about, and this baiting you with "secret" information is raising the temperature as you get more invested in her emotional life, not less. 

You are not allies anymore. Even if you aren't enemies, you aren't allies, and you should not allow her to behave as such. Treat her like the ambassador for a small, annoying little nation that betrayed your country and with whom you are now considering active hostilities. Make her come to you, speak out of her own mouth in her own words to you, without giving her a chance to prepare the field with her "accidentally on-purpose secret thought exposure". 

Not to over-extend the diplomacy and espionage metaphor, but recall that Great Britain also left plenty of "accidental" evidence laying around that convinced Germany of pretty much whatever they wanted them to think in WWII. The Germans thought that they had the advantage of a "secret" spy network (Britain had compromised it utterly) and the benefit of an "unbreakable" code (that Britain had broken). Even though both sides had a pretty robust spy war going on, Britain kept the advantage by maintaining the initiative throughout the war, and feeding misinformation to the Germans at every opportunity. Initiative is everything, and by "finding" this stuff, you're handing it to her.

Dude. Don't be Germany. No back-channels, no secret information to manipulate your opinions and reactions. If she can't walk through the front door of the embassy and make her case -- and live with the consequences -- then you don't need to know about it. 

Of course if you printed out and left a few draft divorce instruments lying around, you might gain the initiative again. But don't play her game. That's exactly what she's wanting you to do.


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## spartan

i think we as men have lost what makes us men at times. No one truly knows what will ever happen in a R. We can only control what we can control. It's like a basketball game- shot clock is winding down and we are down by 2. If this game is an analogy to my life, I realize now that I want the ball with 5 seconds to go. I want the damn ball to win or lose this game that is my life. I don't want to shoot a 2 pointer to put the game into overtime (settling in life), I want to risk it all and take a 3 pointer to win the game. Whether I win or I lose at least I know that no one made that shot attempt for me. I took the shot at winning in life win, lose or draw I did it 100000000% my way. 

My 3 point shot is currently in the air... only time is going to tell if it goes in the net or bricks out.


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## IanIronwood

spartan said:


> i think we as men have lost what makes us men at times. No one truly knows what will ever happen in a R. We can only control what we can control. It's like a basketball game- shot clock is winding down and we are down by 2. If this game is an analogy to my life, I realize now that I want the ball with 5 seconds to go. I want the damn ball to win or lose this game that is my life. I don't want to shoot a 2 pointer to put the game into overtime (settling in life), I want to risk it all and take a 3 pointer to win the game. Whether I win or I lose at least I know that no one made that shot attempt for me. I took the shot at winning in life win, lose or draw I did it 100000000% my way.
> 
> My 3 point shot is currently in the air... only time is going to tell if it goes in the net or bricks out.


I don't think we "lost" what made us men, we just got a bit confused. And who could blame us?

Masculine identity has been under assault from a number of sides for years. There were whole decades when it was ignored or outright reviled. 

At this point, we have to revalorize masculinity ourselves, taking those foundations from the past and adapting them for our future. Because we can't simply default to the 1950s masculine ideal and hope that the rest of the world will cooperate. We have to forge a new identity, defined by us, for us.


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## alphaomega

> Of course if you printed out and left a few draft divorce instruments lying around, you might gain the initiative again. But don't play her game. That's exactly what she's wanting you to do.


interesting......

What about MNG starting his own journal, detailing how he needs to end this marriage now, and all the thoughts that entails....? Then leave it out in an easily found location....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood

alphaomega said:


> interesting......
> 
> What about MNG starting his own journal, detailing how he needs to end this marriage now, and all the thoughts that entails....?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't recommend it, really, because if things really do go south, it's subpoenable. Best to be cold, determined, and noble-minded.


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## alphaomega

Ahhhh. Makes sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

YES Ian.

Don't play dirty. Just play harsh. Totally different mindset. MUCH more effective and frankly some day if the kids get the details the former is not defensible and the latter is totally so.




IanIronwood said:


> I don't recommend it, really, because if things really do go south, it's subpoenable. Best to be cold, determined, and noble-minded.


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## IanIronwood

Update?


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## MisterNiceGuy

A lot has gone on the past 24 hours. 

First I had a therapy session and the therapist pull out all the stops. We talked for 2 hours. He is a great guy that doesn't beat around the bush and gets straight to the point. He said that my wife is having a major midlife crisis. She is examining all aspects of her life and her relationships. The therapist said that he basically said he can't counsel her if she continued to talk to the OM and so that's what happened 8 days ago. That's when she started to turn to me for emotional support, which has been in short supply from me. Tons of other stuff, but that is the bulk of the important stuff. Therapist was also pro snooping as long as it was to uncover any contact with the OM. If I found any he said I need to confront W and tell her that we need to divorce since she wasn't able to have a functioning marriage. I told him about the emails and he said that we need to wait a few more days to see if this was a one time thing or a new pattern.

Talked to the OMW again two days ago and she said that the OM was also going through a midlife crisis (everyone is turning 50) and my wife just happened to come to him and flatter him with all this attention and he reciprocated. The OMW and OM have promised yet again that there will be no contact for a very long time, but we'll see... She also said the OM had called to apologize about all he had done, but that is BS in my book. He just wanted to make a connection again. Like I said, I'm keeping a close eye on all this and will blow it up again if needed. To a wider audience this time...

Then my wife went out to lunch with an old friend. She came home after work last night and just started gushing. Her friend told her that if she wanted to take the marriage seriously she needed to open up and start the dialogue. 

Before we started talking, I told her that there was to be no contact with the OM and she agreed. We need to come up with a NC letter maybe. I also asked if she is in 100% and she said that she was. She was committed to working on this with me 100% for as long as it takes to see if there is something there or not. Joint counseling at some point in the near future. Then we talked for about 3 hours straight. Just matter of act stuff about how we treated each other and communication (lack of) problems over the years. She is reading a book on Monogamy (she is very intellectual) and shared some passages with me that resonated with her. The one thing I didn't get out of her was her moving upstairs into our marriage bed. She said she needed the space for a little while so I'll give her that and she said shortly she will have to move into the same bed. But it wasn't the big crying fest that you all said would come. I almost think she has cried so much over the past couple of months, there isn't much there left to cry about.

We continued the conversation this morning so I know that she is dedicated. She said she was happy that I was stepping up and leading the way for the family and business. Which made me feel good.

The other thing is that she has started to tell me everywhere she is going, like to that lunch yesterday. The old wife would grumble and be vague. The new one sent me a long text about who she was eating lunch with and where she was.

So we have a lot of work to do before we are on a good track, but it looks promising for now...


----------



## Conrad

Seems strange to surrender when you hold all the cards.


----------



## Affaircare

Actually I find this heartening on a couple levels. 

First, if it HAD been a cryingfest, to me that would have indicated that it was an emotional response to something else and not necessarily a well-thought out, deliberate DECISION. The fact that she was intellectual about it, to me, is a bit encouraging precisely because it indicates making a conscious choice, not some knee-jerk reaction to being dumped by her boyfriend. 

Second, I agree--at this point it seem like you still hold the cards you hold. The ship WAS headed out to sea and has now seen the light of the lighthouse and has turned toward it. That DOES NOT mean that the lighthouse can go out and quit shining now. Your job is not over, nor is it time for you to "surrender." 

"Surrender" though is the kind of word that indicates or implies a war: you against her. As this ship moves into safe harbor, we need to change that dynamic to you two being a team--individuals with boundaries, but pulling in the same direction. So I recommend that you keep the cards you have. When she says things like "...I will need to move into the marital bed soon..." that's a test to see if you'll give her that card. At that point, I would recommend a response such as: "I would be happy to reach a mutual agreement with you on when and how that will happen, but I will not respond to demands. Let's build a little rapport and confidence first, and then see if we can reach a Mutual United Understanding." 

The lighthouse is not suddenly going to allow the ship to point which way to safety just because the ship turned toward dock. The LIGHTHOUSE still stands firm--still shines the way--and still sends coordinates to the ship. The ship can then decide to follow those coordinates and reach shore safely--or it can continue to try to dictate it's own coordinates which are, in fact, the rocky areas that will tear it apart. 

So do not give away your cards. Stand firm and direct her back to a MUTUAL marriage which means you include her and she includes you.


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## MEM2020

I agree with this. And I think you take her at her word until you have reason to think otherwise. I think you handled that just right from the sound of it. 

That said - be prepared for one last "big" ripple. If it doesn't happen fine. If it does - like she contacts the other man - or brings up separation/divorce again without any valid reason, you need to calmly tell her that you will be initiating a divorce and will contact an attorney THE NEXT DAY. 

And then go back to a full 180. 

At that point she will come back to you completely within a week. She wants this to work. She is however "confused" and needs to know that you are NOT confused and not easily jerked around. 

Again - I hope that does not happen. You do need to be prepared though because she has gone back and forth many times recently. But if it does and if you execute, that should be the last BIG one. And I also think you should let her set the pace for returning to bed provided all her other behavior is solid. You will get some light/moderate fitness tests. Pass them and you will get a good outcome. You NEED to prepare your head for the last ripple so that IF it happens you just execute your plan, and don't try to "make it up" in the heat of the moment. 

And make sure these relationship talks are balanced. I think you should accept her valid feedback, and question feedback you find overly harsh - don't reject it - simply ask her to defend it. 

If the conversation feels totally one sided ask HER some tough questions. It is destructive to respond with a litany of "you suck too". However a fair question is: "Do you really see yourself as blameless in what has happened here"? 

And then asking her "If we got to do it all over again what would YOU do differently". Half of manning up is looking in the mirror. The other half is asking your partner the hard questions when that is what needs to be done. 

At some point I think you need to ask her "What do YOU plan to do to restore trust in this marriage"? Because she has violated your trust several times now.



Affaircare said:


> Actually I find this heartening on a couple levels.
> 
> First, if it HAD been a cryingfest, to me that would have indicated that it was an emotional response to something else and not necessarily a well-thought out, deliberate DECISION. The fact that she was intellectual about it, to me, is a bit encouraging precisely because it indicates making a conscious choice, not some knee-jerk reaction to being dumped by her boyfriend.
> 
> Second, I agree--at this point it seem like you still hold the cards you hold. The ship WAS headed out to sea and has now seen the light of the lighthouse and has turned toward it. That DOES NOT mean that the lighthouse can go out and quit shining now. Your job is not over, nor is it time for you to "surrender."
> 
> "Surrender" though is the kind of word that indicates or implies a war: you against her. As this ship moves into safe harbor, we need to change that dynamic to you two being a team--individuals with boundaries, but pulling in the same direction. So I recommend that you keep the cards you have. When she says things like "...I will need to move into the marital bed soon..." that's a test to see if you'll give her that card. At that point, I would recommend a response such as: "I would be happy to reach a mutual agreement with you on when and how that will happen, but I will not respond to demands. Let's build a little rapport and confidence first, and then see if we can reach a Mutual United Understanding."
> 
> The lighthouse is not suddenly going to allow the ship to point which way to safety just because the ship turned toward dock. The LIGHTHOUSE still stands firm--still shines the way--and still sends coordinates to the ship. The ship can then decide to follow those coordinates and reach shore safely--or it can continue to try to dictate it's own coordinates which are, in fact, the rocky areas that will tear it apart.
> 
> So do not give away your cards. Stand firm and direct her back to a MUTUAL marriage which means you include her and she includes you.


----------



## Stone_Dagger

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She clearly is not thinking about all the damage this will cause everyone. His wife and kids, my kids, our business, our house all of our friends. It's so pointless...
> 
> ... I'll never get married again I can tell you that...


Going threw the same thing.
& i said the same thing when it comes to the kids.
Unf*cking believable this is.

And yeah "Married" again....With me That will NEVER EVER happen!


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## SaffronPower

Hoping in a few years your wife can lean over, smile at you and say, "Remember when I lost my mind a few years ago honey? Thanks for keeping "us" together."


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## MisterNiceGuy

It really feels like she is on board. She apologized (!) to me yesterday for a crappy mood she was in when one of kids was throwing a tantrum and I had to go work and she was fuming and I didn't get a proper good bye from her (at this point it's just smiling at me and saying good bye, no kissing yet). She texted me a few minutes later and said she was sorry for crummy mood. Something she had not done in years... All the little clues are starting to pile up that she is working on the relationship.

Now we need to start working on the Trust thing because I really, really don't trust her at all... And I'm sure she is still resentful of what I did to her to some degree and she has told me she has trust issues that go back years. Lots of work to do and it will take a lot of time.


----------



## Powerbane

Good to hear MNG!

Don't lose sight of what's really important with your own transformation. 

In other words, don't cave!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

>>And I'm sure she is still resentful of what I did to her to some degree<<

MNG,

When I start to hear you ask her questions about "when" she will do this or that, it starts to border on "needy" in my ears.

I think Affaircare and MEM are right on this one.

But, I think your "tendency" is to surrender.

Since you're getting such great tactical info from them, I'm going to stop as I think I'm not contributing much anymore here.

I do wish you well.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad, you are right... It is bordering on needy. My wife told me that this morning. She is having a hard time moving forward because I've done several things that have come across as "needy". It is something I'm very mindful of. My therapist has said the same thing to me. So with his help and some behavior modification on my own, I need to leave that "needy" person behind. To put things in perspective, I read NMMNG 5 weeks ago for the first time. This is something that is going to take me a long time to transform, I can't just switch it off over night but I am actively working on it.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Conrad, you are right... It is bordering on needy. My wife told me that this morning. She is having a hard time moving forward because I've done several things that have come across as "needy". It is something I'm very mindful of. My therapist has said the same thing to me. So with his help and some behavior modification on my own, I need to leave that "needy" person behind. To put things in perspective, I read NMMNG 5 weeks ago for the first time. This is something that is going to take me a long time to transform, I can't just switch it off over night but I am actively working on it.


MNG,

The way I write, it's likely difficult to see the "needy" parts of me.

They exist.

And, they weren't fully put away until I digested the bulk of the wisdom set forth on this forum.

BUT - and this is why I stress therapy so much - it's simply difficult to exert that sort of self control if you aren't aware of the parts of your personality that hijack you.

It's those little voices that want you to seek approval from her. Those that wonder how she's feeling - or are connected with how lonely you get sometimes.

Basically, if you let those parts speak for you, she sees you as another of her children. And, subconsciously, she simply doesn't have it in her to take you on as a kid.

I don't think any woman wants that.

I speak from experience here. A good counselor - who can help you get in touch with those inner urges... AT THEIR SOURCE.. will make you so much stronger, as you can give yourself the very things you are so desperately wanting from her.

And - guess what happens then?

She sees this absolutely fantastic capable man - and she starts leaning on him for support, friendship, conversation, the hottest sex imaginable....

In fact, everything you ever wanted from her... AND MORE.

All because you stopped seeking it in such a pathetic way.


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## MisterNiceGuy

It happened tonight... got the sobbing, remorseful, wife... very upset about everything she's done... hasn't been able to stop for like an hour. I think we made a lot of progress today. I think we are getting to a better place. Still not out of the woods, but she is finally remorseful for what she did to everyone!


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## Powerbane

I swear you have got be a Rockstar!

You keep going MNG!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> It happened tonight... got the sobbing, remorseful, wife... very upset about everything she's done... hasn't been able to stop for like an hour. I think we made a lot of progress today. I think we are getting to a better place. Still not out of the woods, but she is finally remorseful for what she did to everyone!


Outstanding! Don't let her push you back into being who you were, however. Hold her to account. Appreciate her apology, but understand that she's not done with the psychological backflips yet.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> It happened tonight... got the sobbing, remorseful, wife... very upset about everything she's done... hasn't been able to stop for like an hour. I think we made a lot of progress today. I think we are getting to a better place. Still not out of the woods, but she is finally remorseful for what she did to everyone!


Congratulations.

Truly a splendid outcome - and well deserved.

Seriously, however... do not stop here.

Read all you can on AffairCare's site.

The force is strong with that one.

And, you may even want to start perusing marriedmansexlife.com - if you're feeling really optimistic


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Thanks guys! It was a long night. We were up til midnight talking about everything and how to move forward. She is completely remorseful about everything she did. The trigger was her snooping on my phone and seeing that the OMW had called me last week and I told some her some of what she said. I don't know why that triggered it, but the faucet was off and on all night long. She said there is nothing there between her and the OM anymore. She is completely done with that and she said she can't believe all the damage she caused with her actions! It was an EA that never got to PA, but I am certain it was headed that way if I didn't put a stop to it.

I truly think that we are a path to a better marriage at this point. She started talking about our future, planning a couple of trips together in a couple of months. She is completely in. She was completely open and honest about her past, telling me stuff she has never told me before. I felt like I was seeing my wife for the first time. It's almost like we just started dating, yet I've known her for 17 years!

I suspect we will start joint counseling in a week after she gets back from her trip to her parents place this week.

I know the hard part is coming where I have to vigilant for as long as we are together and be a strong leader, strong father and a great lover. None of which I have been the past few years. Lots of hard work, but totally worth it.

She has some solid leads on some jobs. It will be tough for her to get back into the corporate grind, but we need the money and she needs something outside of our family business for a while.

Well, I think the affair is over. We are moving on with our lives. I will probably just start posting in separate threads since I think this chapter is closed for for now. I'm glad this was not a protracted issue. I knew my wife and I knew this could turn around fairly quickly once she came to her senses... Not out of the woods quite yet, but there is a large light at the end of the tunnel now.


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## Kobo

<slow clap>
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neil

:smthumbup:

as conrad states quite often on here (and rightly too)

Stay the course


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## Deejo

Glad that the EA _appears_ to be over.

That being the case, now you get to deal with what is actually wrong with your marriage. 

The affair wasn't the problem - it was the symptom. 
You both still have a great deal to address. NOW the work starts. Up to this point, all you were doing was determining if the work was even possible.

Good luck.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Deejo, I know this. We need to get to the bottom of our problems. Many of which we addressed last night but many more to go over. I am going to ask her for joint counseling when she gets back from her trip. I think it's vital. Just taking it slowly right now...


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Deejo, I know this. We need to get to the bottom of our problems. Many of which we addressed last night but many more to go over. I am going to ask her for joint counseling when she gets back from her trip. I think it's vital. Just taking it slowly right now...


I strongly recommend individual sessions for both of you also.


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## F-102

Good deal, bud! I'm glad to see that it is working out, and that you are WORKING TOWARDS working it out!


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## alphaomega

Mng. You r an enigma to me. You took what normally takes months and in the space of weeks, turned this around.

Kudos to you for being a prime example of how this can turn out for the best. 

Stay the course. The fitness tests are likely going to increase for a bit while she tests your strenght and determination. Keep it up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

I think there are a couple things different here. First the affair was only emotional. I caught it at the very early stages. My wife and I were already working on our marriage before she she started the EA. I still have a lot work on the marriage and my manning up journey. 



alphaomega said:


> Mng. You r an enigma to me. You took what normally takes months and in the space of weeks, turned this around.
> 
> Kudos to you for being a prime example of how this can turn out for the best.
> 
> Stay the course. The fitness tests are likely going to increase for a bit while she tests your strenght and determination. Keep it up!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

You know, there are many wise things I could say right now, but I think "Let's savor this moment" really is the best: 










Good job! 

Now I'm not saying the work is all over, but I have to say MNG that you handled this VERY well, to a T. So many people, men and women, are afraid to do what you did and so they hem....they haw...and rather than drawing up the sheer courage from within to stand up and stand firm--they cave and lose their marriage. 

I am so proud of you! 

Your next steps will be some things to do to reconnect with your wife, get to know yourself and keep that Strong Guy present (and MEM and Conrad can teach you a bunch of that), make it safe so you can get to know the real her and she can get to know the real you, and learn how to meet each other's needs. That doesn't mean giving up who you are or buckling under to demands: it means finding out what the needs are, sharing your needs, and both of you agreeing to do it willingly! 

For tonight though:


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I think there are a couple things different here. First the affair was only emotional. I caught it at the very early stages. My wife and I were already working on our marriage before she she started the EA. I still have a lot work on the marriage and my manning up journey.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No she wasn't.

But, she likely will now.

It's important you keep that distinction.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> No she wasn't.
> 
> But, she likely will now.
> 
> It's important you keep that distinction.


Yes she probably was not working on the marriage in her mind before I blew up the affar. I was. I think it was her friend that told her last week "if you are looking for love you already have someone at home who loves you. " my wife told me that made something click in her head. She was even talking about sex last night! I bought some flowers for her and put them in her office. When she found them she said ILY! She hasn't told me that in years... I wonder some marriages need to get to this point to be stronger or break up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Yes she probably was not working on the marriage in her mind before I blew up the affar. I was. I think it was her friend that told her last week "if you are looking for love you already have someone at home who loves you. " my wife told me that made something click in her head. She was even talking about sex last night! I bought some flowers for her and put them in her office. When she found them she said ILY! She hasn't told me that in years... I wonder some marriages need to get to this point to be stronger or break up?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Only at the precipice do we evolve"

-credit to Major Misfit


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## Conrad

One more thing...

We were giving you ideas on how to get her to that "precipice".

The phone log of you with OMW turned that trick.

When she saw you were STILL working - and strong - she broke.

In her mind, she wasn't certain you were serious until she saw that.

It's something different for everyone.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Update... Things were great yesterday for the most part. The major thing is that I talked for a while to the OMW who seems to be about 2 weeks behind the rest of us in this. She is now telling me that she has ZERO tolerance for all this crap from her husband and my wife. Basically told me to keep my wife away from her husband. This is after W and OM were still trading emails as of Saturday morning. They were saying to each other that can't we be friends and just talk about things like music? OMW found out and flipped out on her husband and kicked him out of the house for a day. Then my frickin wife sends and email to him yesterday morning and says "can we meet and find closure on this at some park nearby" to which the OM sends me a copy of the email and says he's deeply sorry he's put us through all of this and he won't ever talk to my wife again. I told my wife and she said the OMW and OM are just really screwed up and she feels sorry for the OM that he is being kicked around like that.

Wife and I actually had a great day yesterday and we did a lot of fun things and went for a walk. She even said ILY for which I hadn't heard from her in years! Went to bed (still in separate beds for now) and had a good night sleep... woke up and things were still on track and then went downhill over time. She said she is very sad that it is finally, finally over between her and the OM. Cried off and on all afternoon and this evening, then she started up again with the talk about how we don't have a spark between us, never have. We don't connect spiritually. I don't make her laugh like the other guy. I'm too serious. We don't have that magic chemistry and we never have had it. She knows because of what she's been through with the OM that she can have that type of connection with another man but she doesn't have it with me. Doesn't know if we can but is willing to give it her all for like a year to see if there is something there between us. She said that even though she said ILY yesterday, the connection between isn't really there! In the meantime I just nodding my head and saying not much. I felt like I was just here like a week ago! I let my guard down for like 6 hours and she must've smelled it... Talking about sex and foreplay yesterday and today there is no connection! Someone tell me this is normal thing from a recovering affair...

The funny thing about all this tonight is that she said I was a totally awesome guy. I wouldn't have any problem finding another woman in like two months. I'm usually the most interesting person in the room. Lots of women flock to me, but there are just a few things missing between us. This sounds like another SH&T test to me...

I'm so tired of hearing this over and over again. I'm tired of dwelling in the past. She brings up things that happened on our wedding day and says they are signs that we should've never gotten married. Huh? I thought we had a great wedding day! I want to move forward in a productive way. I guess I need to tell her that. Talking about these things that happened like 16 years ago is counterproductive and we need to work on the here and now and the future.


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## Deejo

You're trying too hard, too fast.

This entire episode has been what? Six to eight weeks?

You are now on the 'rollercoaster'. That ride will last at least several months. She still wants him. She's trying to get comfortable settling for you ... and you're talking about sex?

You really need to let go of warm and supportive for a while.



> she said the OMW and OM are just really screwed up and she feels sorry for the OM that he is being kicked around like that.


You may want to take some lessons from the OMW. More kicking, less hugging. She thinks THEY are screwed up?

The affair may be over, but the fantasy of the affair and what it represented to her remains firmly in place. You would do well to keep that in mind for a while instead of trying to woo the woman that just cheated on you, and wishes she could continue cheating on you.

She's a mess MNG. Don't sweep this under the rug. The mess isn't nearly played out yet.

And this is NOT a sh!t test. This is the real deal. She isn't attracted to you. And she knows good and well that you are trying desperately to win her back ... which continues to contribute to her lack of attraction. She still doesn't feel at risk with you, which in my opinion is what needs to happen for you to know where your marriage stands, and for her to sh!t or get off the pot.


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## MisterNiceGuy

One thing she said to me yesterday was how much she respected me and how I handled the whole situation and her repect for me went way up. I let my guard down and I'm pushing too hard and I'm too available. She was so nice yesterday argh. It's been about 10 weeks since she started talking divorce and a month since the EA started. But just today she told me how deep her feelings for him went. I'm expecting too much too soon. 



Deejo said:


> You're trying too hard, too fast.
> 
> This entire episode has been what? Six to eight weeks?
> 
> You are now on the 'rollercoaster'. That ride will last at least several months. She still wants him. She's trying to get comfortable settling for you ... and you're talking about sex?
> 
> You really need to let go of warm and supportive for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> You may want to take some lessons from the OMW. More kicking, less hugging. She thinks THEY are screwed up?
> 
> The affair may be over, but the fantasy of the affair and what it represented to her remains firmly in place. You would do well to keep that in mind for a while instead of trying to woo the woman that just cheated on you, and wishes she could continue cheating on you.
> 
> She's a mess MNG. Don't sweep this under the rug. The mess isn't nearly played out yet.
> 
> And this is NOT a sh!t test. This is the real deal. She isn't attracted to you. And she knows good and well that you are trying desperately to win her back ... which continues to contribute to her lack of attraction. She still doesn't feel at risk with you, which in my opinion is what needs to happen for you to know where your marriage stands, and for her to sh!t or get off the pot.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Then my frickin wife sends and email to him yesterday morning and says "can we meet and find closure on this at some park nearby" to which the OM sends me a copy of the email and says he's deeply sorry he's put us through all of this and he won't ever talk to my wife again.



ALL contact must STOP.

Be VERY clear about this and stand your ground. What is it? A no contact letter SENT BY YOU.

While ever she has access to him by what ever means, she will ALWAYS have that "Lingering feeling".

NIP IT NOW

You have made some great progress here, don't let it slip now


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## Powerbane

Stand your ground. 

Ask OMW to tell her husband to delete his current email address. 
This way your wife will get a reject on any emails she attempts to send. 
Also getthem to block your wifes cell number to prevent any new texts. 

Good luck and stay strong brother MNG!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood

And the whole "spark" thing? That's another way she's trying to make this about how something is wrong with YOU, not HER. A woman her age talking about "spark" is pure mid-life crisis. If you suddenly went to her and said how you wanted perky boobies in your life, and you never had that with her, how do you think she'd respond? "Spark" is infatuation, not love. So she wants to feel like a teenage girl in love again? She's a 50 year old woman, not a 19 year old girl. She's old enough to get emotional fulfillment without flattery and "connection". 

This backsliding on her part when it comes to communicating with the OM is also disturbing. Never again, or all is for naught. And as for sex . . . 

YOU need to make it clear to HER that YOU aren't going to be ready to have sex with her for some time. That's the A-Bomb I mentioned, her using your own pent up sexual desires against you. That's the one sure way she can mollify you into just about anything. But if YOU make it clear that SHE's the one "cut off", that puts your relationship into proper perspective. It's her hole card. Take it away from her before she has a chance to play it.


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## Conrad

>>They were saying to each other that can't we be friends and just talk about things like music? OMW found out and flipped out on her husband and kicked him out of the house for a day<<

Sounds like she's got some balls.


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## MisterNiceGuy

So what the hell do I do when she start spouting off about not having "chemistry" with me? She did say she is 100% in yesterday and will give it everything she has. She is going to talk to the therapist today and one of the things that really is on her mind is this "chemistry" thing... It's a big thing in her mind right now. The only thing I can think of is to spend more quality time with her going on "dates" and such which she has suggested as a way to reconnect. She did mention that it would take me about a week to find another woman to hook up if she left. She is absolutely right! That dawned on her the other day and made her nervous. She even told me several times how stupid could she be to leave me. It's just going to take time for her to work through this and "attach" to me again.

I think you are right about the midlife thing, she is really struggling with the rest of her life. That's what got us here in the first place!

I am going to use the sex trump card. She sent me a link in email yesterday about the importance of foreplay. She has a strong sex drive and I need to use that against her in this situation (and then of course enjoy it if she comes around) to get her to really commit to this thing.

Yes... I need to slow down and let it unfold more naturally.



IanIronwood said:


> And the whole "spark" thing? That's another way she's trying to make this about how something is wrong with YOU, not HER. A woman her age talking about "spark" is pure mid-life crisis. If you suddenly went to her and said how you wanted perky boobies in your life, and you never had that with her, how do you think she'd respond? "Spark" is infatuation, not love. So she wants to feel like a teenage girl in love again? She's a 50 year old woman, not a 19 year old girl. She's old enough to get emotional fulfillment without flattery and "connection".
> 
> This backsliding on her part when it comes to communicating with the OM is also disturbing. Never again, or all is for naught. And as for sex . . .
> 
> YOU need to make it clear to HER that YOU aren't going to be ready to have sex with her for some time. That's the A-Bomb I mentioned, her using your own pent up sexual desires against you. That's the one sure way she can mollify you into just about anything. But if YOU make it clear that SHE's the one "cut off", that puts your relationship into proper perspective. It's her hole card. Take it away from her before she has a chance to play it.


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## Conrad

"I don't feel any chemistry with you!"

Perhaps we should sign you up for a chemistry class.....

Alpha dog MNG - alpha dog.

Not time to be nice, yet.

You've got that covered.


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## Conrad

Here's the thing you're not quite understanding - yet.

NOW is the time that the emotional control, banter, and the manning up program is hugely important.

Increase your attractiveness to levels where she simply cannot stand to not be with you.

Do the yoga classes... all the stuff you planned to do before you dove right back into being a nice guy.

Stop fixing.

And do not act needy about sex.

If she is what you say she is, she'll eventually tear your clothes off. That will be the right time.

If you negotiate for it, you'll kill it.


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## bluesky

I can't imagine how your wife would want to be with you.
She abuses the hell out of you and you accept it.
Few woman respect this.
Seriously, I think you need a testosterone injection.



> Things were great yesterday for the most part. The major thing is that I talked for a while to the OMW who seems to be about 2 weeks behind the rest of us in this. She is now telling me that she has ZERO tolerance for all this crap from her husband and my wife. Basically told me to keep my wife away from her husband. This is after W and OM were still trading emails as of Saturday morning. They were saying to each other that can't we be friends and just talk about things like music? OMW found out and flipped out on her husband and kicked him out of the house for a day. Then my frickin wife sends and email to him yesterday morning and says "can we meet and find closure on this at some park nearby" to which the OM sends me a copy of the email and says he's deeply sorry he's put us through all of this and he won't ever talk to my wife again. I told my wife and she said the OMW and OM are just really screwed up and she feels sorry for the OM that he is being kicked around like that.





> Wife and I actually had a great day yesterday and we did a lot of fun things and went for a walk. She even said ILY for which I hadn't heard from her in years! Went to bed (still in separate beds for now) and had a good night sleep... woke up and things were still on track and then went downhill over time. She said she is very sad that it is finally, finally over between her and the OM. Cried off and on all afternoon and this evening, then she started up again with the talk about how we don't have a spark between us, never have. We don't connect spiritually. I don't make her laugh like the other guy. I'm too serious. We don't have that magic chemistry and we never have had it. She knows because of what she's been through with the OM that she can have that type of connection with another man but she doesn't have it with me.


How can you characterize this as a great day.
She is completely insulting you and u kept your mouth shut!!!!!!

Also, she recently emailed OM to meet in the park for closure!

THAT MEANS A BLOW JOB MY FRIEND....I GUARANTEE IT.


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## logan21

MNG, I am in a similar situation as you. I hate that this happened to you, but I've learned a lot from reading this thread. I learned of my wife's PA in December. Luckily for me, the OM lives in a different city and was a total "player". He met her at an out of town wedding (Oct.) and they messed around a bit one night. He knew she was coming back in town in a couple weeks and worked it hard. He had his way with her and was basically done with her. She would try and meet up with him whenever she went back to that city, but he would come up with some excuse. I found an email to him when she accidently left up her account. She knew it was over, so I didn't have to do much in closing the affair down. I did email him though, and told him I would find him if there was any more contact. I'm sure he was relieved (so my wife would stop pursuing him and he didn't have to let her down). In my situation, my wife wanted to be attracted to me, she just wasn't. (Said I'm incredible in every way, and she knows the "grass isn't greener") She just wasn't sure why she wasn't attracted. She thought it was in her head. After getting on this forum, I know why. I needed to "man up" BADLY!! I was a "nice guy" all the way, and that was how I was trying to win her afffection. No more. I knew the changes I needed to make and we are doing great. I've got a lot of work to do, to change my "need to please" ways, but I'm willing to put in the time. I have to think about my actions, since none of it is habit yet. I've also been working out and I'm in the best shape of my life. Your wife sounds like she's really reffering to attraction, rather than chemistry. I think as you continue to man-up and you guys do things together, it will gradually get better. She's gotta want this to work though. The more time that passes from the EA, the better it should get for her. Right now, it's that "rush" of a new relationship. It really is like a drug. Totally blinds them to reality, and makes them think the OM is everything they want. Total BS. Good luck to you. I'm rooting for you!


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## IanIronwood

"Chemistry" is a bullsh!t term. What is it that she wants that you aren't providing? She's going to use this "chemistry" and "spark" issue to string you along emotionally and make you fret over whether or not she'll really come back to you or not. She's getting you invested in her emotional story, without getting invested in yours.

Honestly, what if it's you who don't feel the chemistry with HER? Sure, there's sex -- but that doesn't guarantee chemistry. If anything, you should view this as her opportunity to impress you, not the other way around. Because you could have another woman in a week, a girlfriend in a month, and a new wife within the year, whereas she's looking at slim pickings at best.

Make her earn you. The reason she doesn't feel chemistry is that you've made it too easy for her to feel comfortable, and comfortable and chemistry rarely overlap. She felt chemistry -- emotional value -- with the OM because he was new and flattering to her and made her laugh -- but he was also forbidden. If he wasn't forbidden, the chemistry would have flagged significantly. 

You aren't forbidden, you're comfortable, even with the recent events. If she wants to feel some chemistry, that stuff doesn't just happen. She's going to have to step up and make an effort, or, really, why should you bother?


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## MisterNiceGuy

I must've said something last night that made her think.

She came to me this morning said she is done talking about the OM, except in the case where we are working on traits that he had that she would like to see in me. (Collaboration, common goals)

She wants me to lead her out of this mess with the help of the therapist. She said I'm in control of this marriage from this point forward. I need to take the lead and tell her what needs to be done in our relationship.

She is in 100% for as long as it takes to figure it all this all out.

The two big things in her mind are that before we were not a collaborative team in the marriage. Both of us doing what we wanted without consulting and working it out. Going forward we need to be more of a team with a common goal, but with me leading.

Very refreshing. Exactly what I wanted to hear. I was a little shocked, but I've got my marching orders... 



Conrad said:


> Here's the thing you're not quite understanding - yet.
> 
> NOW is the time that the emotional control, banter, and the manning up program is hugely important.
> 
> Increase your attractiveness to levels where she simply cannot stand to not be with you.
> 
> Do the yoga classes... all the stuff you planned to do before you dove right back into being a nice guy.
> 
> Stop fixing.
> 
> And do not act needy about sex.
> 
> If she is what you say she is, she'll eventually tear your clothes off. That will be the right time.
> 
> If you negotiate for it, you'll kill it.


----------



## IanIronwood

No, dude: You're GIVING the marching orders, now. That's the point. Consult with the therapist, but I'd say that you need to set down some concrete goals for you both, and then give her the opportunity to accomplish them . . . or hold her to account if she doesn't. But if you're going to lead her, then you must lead, in general.


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## WhereAmI

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She came to me this morning said she is done talking about the OM, except in the case where we are working on traits that he had that she would like to see in me. (Collaboration, common goals)


WTF? I hope that's not part of what you wanted to hear. Who would put up with that nonsense? She needs to answer your questions about OM. If she'd like for you to behave differently she needs to state her case, not compare you to someone else.

Perhaps you should be exactly like him and sleep with a married woman! Ask her how much she'd like that. 

The crap that comes out of disloyal spouses mouths amazes me.


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## Affaircare

MNG~

I have the unique advantage of being both a FEMALE posting here in Testosterone-Land and a person who was formerly disloyal. (FYI--my exH cheated on me, so I've been the loyal spouse, and I was unfaithful in this marriage, so I've been the disloyal spouse.) Whilst as a rule-of-thumb I agree with the suggestions to "stay strong" and "lead"--this is CLEARLY something your W desires--I want to give you a peek into what will be going on for her so that you can have some understanding. 

The first thing that's going to happen, if the affair really is over, is that your W will go through withdrawal. The affair is very similar to an addiction to amphetamine (and we'll talk about how that relates to "the spark" in a moment). There is a sticky thread in the "Coping With Infidelity" section that is EXCELLENT explaining this: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html So envision that your W is addicted to amphetamine (speed). This is why she says stuff like: "Can't we just be friends and talk about music or something?" She is HOOKED and wants some way to periodically keep getting her fix. If she is really going to end the addiction though, she needs to choose NO CONTACT voluntarily--just like when an addict decides to quit, they need to decide it for themselves...and completely walk away from it! 

When an addict does that--cuts off their supply on their own--they do experience both physical and mental withdrawal. That is to say, for the next couple weeks you're W will have some of the symptoms of withdrawal such as mental fatigue, mental depression, affected appetite, anxiety, agitation, excessive sleep, vivid or lucid dreams, and maybe even suicidal ideation. In layman's terms, she'll mope, be sad, feel like she has no reason to live, either will eat like crazy to feed her sadness or eat nothing, be nervous, cranky, lay in bed a lot, etc. If you see these kinds of things occurring, do not panic or try to "make her get up" or "make her be cheerful"--this is amphetamine withdrawal. Okay? It can last anywhere from a week (for a shorter affair) to a months (for a long-term affair that lasted years). One of the best things you can do at this time is to not play into her depression, recognize it for what it is (so sort of "weather it"), and to some degree be nearby and tell her you're there. That's pretty much it. She will have to get through this. 

Now regarding "the spark" thing and traits that the OM had that she wishes you had. I'm sure that sounds pretty insulting to you right now, but it isn't ENTIRELY an insult and here's why. What she's saying there is that there were some qualities in that man which piqued her interest in the first place and then continued to feed the amphetamine rush. If she's going through mid-life crisis, no doubt she is pretty much searching for that "infatuation/new love" rush that she had when she was young. Well...like any drug, amphetamine feels exciting, makes your heart pound and palms sweat and you feel butterflies in your stomach, but you have to do MORE and MORE and MORE of it to get the effect you used to get with less. And on just a biological level, every relationship that stays together past the "infatuation/new love" stage (which is about 2-3 years) progresses into another stage of dopamine, which is the "happy and content" drug. So all relationships, as they mature, lose some of that amphetamine speed and progress to satisfied pleasure. 

Part of the reason she's saying you don't do "the spark" is that she's trying to say "You don't set off amphetamine speed in me anymore." Well...my guess is that when you guys met "back in the day" that you USED TO!! She would probably think of you and get all excited...get dressed up pretty when she might run into you...spend lots of time with you...admire you...etc. and you in turn sat and spent time talking with her, getting to know her...looked and smelled handsome...treated her with affection and did little romantic things. And guess what? Even if she chooses not to do all those things again, YOU SURE CAN! So this is why we suggest to you to sit and talk with her, listening as if you are interested in her and she kind of excites you--look and smell handsome (think Cary Grant!)--treat her with affection. Those things, I personally call "Love Kindlers" because in the fire of love, there are actions that can put out the fire and extinguish it...and there are actions that can make that fire BLAZE!! On our articles page, take a peek at Love Kindlers - What are they? and then come back and talk about what kindles love for YOU and see if you can think of ways to find out what kindles love for HER. 

I'm sure you can see how the combination of withdrawing from the amphetamine and restarting some of those Love Kindling actions would re-ignite that spark! But first things first...let's get through the withdrawal with boundaries in place!


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## IanIronwood

I wouldn't be too premature with the love kindling. 

I mean, sure, ideally you want to be comfortable enough within your marriage to be able to ignite a spark . . . but you are a LONG way from there! At this point, such measures only play into her need for attention and drama, and convince her that you weren't really serious about walking away. While that might pay a quick short-term dividend, long term it's a bad investment.

Affairs might be like amphetamines. I can certainly see the metaphor is apt. But the way you treat a junkie isn't to get them off of one drug and on to another. She needs to take ownership of this, first, and convince MNG not only that she's committed to the marriage, but that she's committed to him, personally, before he turns up the temperature to any appreciable degree.

The man's been wounded. Rewarding that behavior with dinner, drinks, and flirtation without securing a pretty convincingly sincere apology would be just handing the power in the relationship back to her. Until he sees some concrete signs of contrition and a true ownership of this from her, he needs to keep her at arms length, chemistry and spark be damned. She hasn't even dealt with his anger yet, much less her own remorse. 

File "Love Kindlers" away under "If and When". Then lose the file awhile. Otherwise, she'll be doing this again in five years.


----------



## MEM2020

The biggest decision in front of you is whether your W should get an outside job or continue to work with you in the business. 

For this decision you are going to need to wrap your balls in kevlar and leave your heart out of it. The conversation should sort of go like this: 
"Financial strength is core to a healthy marriage. I am perfectly fine with you continuing to work in the business provided we can agree on your role and responsibilities. If you do choose that path I expect you to give the business the same level of commitment you give the marriage. 

If instead you prefer to get a job working elsewhere I will totally support that decision and I will run this business the way it NEEDS to be run. 

Before that conversation you need to:
1. draft a short list of bullets outlining what each of you will be responsible for when running the business. Play to each of your strengths, but if there are areas where you need to step up, and CAN step up, don't slough them off on her.
2. write a short - 1 page business plan for the next 12 months - nothing fancy - but it should have a strategy, some tactics and most important, revenue and profit goals. 

Life is really about 3 things, time, money and love. This decision will impact all 3 in a big way. Be prepared. Be ready to ask her tough questions if need be and ready to answer them if she grills you. 



IanIronwood said:


> I wouldn't be too premature with the love kindling.
> 
> I mean, sure, ideally you want to be comfortable enough within your marriage to be able to ignite a spark . . . but you are a LONG way from there! At this point, such measures only play into her need for attention and drama, and convince her that you weren't really serious about walking away. While that might pay a quick short-term dividend, long term it's a bad investment.
> 
> Affairs might be like amphetamines. I can certainly see the metaphor is apt. But the way you treat a junkie isn't to get them off of one drug and on to another. She needs to take ownership of this, first, and convince MNG not only that she's committed to the marriage, but that she's committed to him, personally, before he turns up the temperature to any appreciable degree.
> 
> The man's been wounded. Rewarding that behavior with dinner, drinks, and flirtation without securing a pretty convincingly sincere apology would be just handing the power in the relationship back to her. Until he sees some concrete signs of contrition and a true ownership of this from her, he needs to keep her at arms length, chemistry and spark be damned. She hasn't even dealt with his anger yet, much less her own remorse.
> 
> File "Love Kindlers" away under "If and When". Then lose the file awhile. Otherwise, she'll be doing this again in five years.


----------



## AFEH

MNG I’m thinking you have some big changes to go through. From being the “Archetypal Stay at Home Nice Guy” to? Something else!

But what is that something else? Archetypes are a “model” or “prime example”. So what’s to be your new Archetype? “Archetypal Leader?”, “Archetypal General?”, “Archetypal Manager?” … or something else?

In my circumstances a few years back I adopted the Archetypal Buddha, my mantra is “Friendly helpful Bob”. Kind of works for me at my time of life. Before I was the Archetypal Leader and Archetypal General but those Archetypes, while I can switch into them when needed, are no longer dominant in me.

Maybe some food for thought for you.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

More on the roller coaster over the past couple of days.

Like I said, she was fairly positive about 24 hours ago and we went our separate ways most of the day. She had a therapy session which I guess dredged up some old stuff. She said they talked little about the affair, she said that is a dead end and while she is still grieving over it, she knows it's over. 

We had a little blow up last night. She started talking about the OM and how nice he was and this and that about him and how much she missed him. I shut her down and told her I do not want to talk about it ever again. This morning she said that she wanted a man that "challenged" her and stood up to her and appreciated what I did last night. I am slowly getting my balls back. She is also starting to talk about how I had abandoned her all these years and wasn't there emotionally and physically. I know this that's why we are here and I'm trying to Man Up! She said she doesn't know if she can go through with this because of her resentment towards me. Now comes out all the issues of resentment and anger over why we got here in the first place. The years of neglect on my part. The Mr. Nice Guy stuff. She is resentful and angry that she spent years in this marriage with me and there was little love to be had. I've read a lot about resentment and anger over the past day or so. Most say that you have to see the good and think about the future. It's one thing for me to say to her she should do this or that (which I haven't yet) and it's another for her to embrace the our future without dwelling on the past. She is spending a lot of time in the past right now.

She has agreed again this morning for me to lead her out of this and I told her a few things we need to do, as distasteful as it is right now, and that is spending as much time together as possible, doing fun things, sleeping in the same bed together, having lots of conversations, etc etc... She told me it is going to very tough but will do it for as long as it takes to figure this out.

From now on when she goes negative, I just need to put a stop to it. "How is this helping our future?" I need to actively work on leading this family...

Bob has it right... I'm going to be "Friendly, Helpful, Compassionate"


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

When she blame-shifts this crap onto you, it makes me cringe.

It still sounds like you are setting yourself up to get a report card from her on your past wrongs.

When do you get to recite hers?

You see what I mean?

It's not productive for her to continue confessing YOUR sins without some reciprocity.


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> More on the roller coaster over the past couple of days.
> 
> Like I said, she was fairly positive about 24 hours ago and we went our separate ways most of the day. She had a therapy session which I guess dredged up some old stuff. She said they talked little about the affair, she said that is a dead end and while she is still grieving over it, she knows it's over.
> 
> We had a little blow up last night. She started talking about the OM and how nice he was and this and that about him and how much she missed him. I shut her down and told her I do not want to talk about it ever again. This morning she said that she wanted a man that "challenged" her and stood up to her and appreciated what I did last night. I am slowly getting my balls back. She is also starting to talk about how I had abandoned her all these years and wasn't there emotionally and physically. I know this that's why we are here and I'm trying to Man Up! She said she doesn't know if she can go through with this because of her resentment towards me. Now comes out all the issues of resentment and anger over why we got here in the first place. The years of neglect on my part. The Mr. Nice Guy stuff. She is resentful and angry that she spent years in this marriage with me and there was little love to be had. I've read a lot about resentment and anger over the past day or so. Most say that you have to see the good and think about the future. It's one thing for me to say to her she should do this or that (which I haven't yet) and it's another for her to embrace the our future without dwelling on the past. She is spending a lot of time in the past right now.
> 
> She has agreed again this morning for me to lead her out of this and I told her a few things we need to do, as distasteful as it is right now, and that is spending as much time together as possible, doing fun things, sleeping in the same bed together, having lots of conversations, etc etc... She told me it is going to very tough but will do it for as long as it takes to figure this out.
> 
> From now on when she goes negative, I just need to put a stop to it. "How is this helping our future?" I need to actively work on leading this family...
> 
> Bob has it right... I'm going to be "Friendly, Helpful, Compassionate"


I applaud you for shutting down the discussion of the OM -- his name or any mention of him just shouldn't come up without the presence of a counselor, ever again. If it's a dead end, then there's no need to bring it up.

Apropos to that, having her bring up her resentment towards you for her perception that you emotionally abandoned her should likewise be out of bounds without a counselor present. There is no purpose to her doing that other than "sharing her pain" with you, making _you _feel responsible, and therefore ultimately accountable about _her_ indiscretions. If she wants you to know how much you hurt her, then fine, you got the memo. Whether or not you feel sorry or responsible is simply not relevant to the crisis at hand, nor will it do anything to repair the relationship. She's pushing for you to feel contrition and empathy for her without first taking full resolvability for her own actions. If she's truly committed to moving forward, then establish that blaming you for her behavior is not a productive avenue of reconciliation.

You can easily justify that by pointing out that your present course of action is in part an act of contrition over that part of your life, a very productive one. You went from having a personal character deficit to having a character surplus. Has she shown the same level of dedication to the marriage? Merely ending the affair isn't sufficient -- that was forced upon her, and she gave it up only reluctantly. Merely remaining under your roof isn't sufficient -- while keeping your family intact is a very high priority, doing so at the expense of a happy future isn't wise. 

And I'm still concerned with how fast you're attempting to resume normal relations. While spending time together in a structured way is certainly a positive step, it's also an invitation to creep back into old patterns of behavior. I suggest instead specifically delineated "family" times, in which you interact as father and mother, and then specifically delineated "date" times, in which you attempt to renew your intimate connection. During these times, it might be permitted to display "boyfriend/girlfriend" behavior, but until such time as there's a full reconciliation I would counsel against resuming such domestic patterns as sleeping in the same bed, sharing a bathroom, etc. Not only would that feel like a capitulation to her, thus wrecking your carefully-constructed manning up, it could also lead to her re-assuming the role of the dominant partner.

Contrition first. Maybe even a little penance. Certainly no recriminations on her part. If she's suffering, she can tell it to the MC. But if she's truly committed to making it work out, then she should be willing to move slowly back towards a new normalcy. If she wants spark and chemistry, then those things must be cultivated through attraction and desire, and neither of those things will be present unless the courtship is renewed from scratch. Sliding back into bed next to your wife before that happens will be, I fear, a mistake.


----------



## IanIronwood

ADDENDUM: in re-reading your post, I noted that she keeps saying she doesn't know if she can go through with it. She's just setting the marriage up for the possibility for failure in doing so, and trying to cast doubts in your mind as to whether or not she's leaving. She needs to cut that sh!t out right now, it's totally unproductive. Either she's committed to the marriage and she's in 100% despite her doubts, or she's not, and you need to end it. When she talks about her resentment and her potential inability to get over it, she's trying to shift blame back to you again. If she truly feels that way, she needs to keep it to herself. It isn't doing either one of you any good for you to keep hearing how she might just leave anyway. At this point, that would be a blatant attempt to shift attention back onto her pain, away from yours, and make you out to be the bad guy again. If she can't hang, she knows where the door is. Otherwise, you don't need to hear it.


----------



## spartan

MisterNiceGuy said:


> More on the roller coaster over the past couple of days.
> 
> Like I said, she was fairly positive about 24 hours ago and we went our separate ways most of the day. She had a therapy session which I guess dredged up some old stuff. She said they talked little about the affair, she said that is a dead end and while she is still grieving over it, she knows it's over.
> 
> We had a little blow up last night. She started talking about the OM and how nice he was and this and that about him and how much she missed him. I shut her down and told her I do not want to talk about it ever again. This morning she said that she wanted a man that "challenged" her and stood up to her and appreciated what I did last night. I am slowly getting my balls back. She is also starting to talk about how I had abandoned her all these years and wasn't there emotionally and physically. I know this that's why we are here and I'm trying to Man Up! She said she doesn't know if she can go through with this because of her resentment towards me. Now comes out all the issues of resentment and anger over why we got here in the first place. The years of neglect on my part. The Mr. Nice Guy stuff. She is resentful and angry that she spent years in this marriage with me and there was little love to be had. I've read a lot about resentment and anger over the past day or so. Most say that you have to see the good and think about the future. It's one thing for me to say to her she should do this or that (which I haven't yet) and it's another for her to embrace the our future without dwelling on the past. She is spending a lot of time in the past right now.
> 
> She has agreed again this morning for me to lead her out of this and I told her a few things we need to do, as distasteful as it is right now, and that is spending as much time together as possible, doing fun things, sleeping in the same bed together, having lots of conversations, etc etc... She told me it is going to very tough but will do it for as long as it takes to figure this out.
> 
> From now on when she goes negative, I just need to put a stop to it. "How is this helping our future?" I need to actively work on leading this family...
> 
> Bob has it right... I'm going to be "Friendly, Helpful, Compassionate"


again, MNG this is all a big sh!t test from her in my opinion. This EA rocked her foundation and probably her views on what marriage is/was/should be. It is easy to tell her that in 2-3 years after the butterflies wear off she will be in the same boat as she is in now, the only difference would be that she is now involved with a man who left his family for a woman who left her family. Great choice I would tell her!

Again, same scenario for me- Difference is that I am at a point right now that where I know what I can change about our relationship. That change that I am talking about and that change that everyone here is talking about is ME. I can only change ME. Can't change her, nor do I WANT to change her. Your wife may be acting like a child, however, as a grown adult you cannot treat her like a child. You need to let go of your fear of the unknown. Let go of your fear of what would happen to you if she did indeed leave. Look at this from a position of strength and the new experiences you can encounter on your own. She is practically BEGGING you to change for yourself! Do stuff you have been meaning to do! Did you start the Yoga class yet? (probably not...) Have you started to make plans with just your kids to spend quality daddy and me time? 

She is not done yet with the OM. No matter what everyone states here, I truly believe that she needs to come to terms with her emotions on her own. State the obvious truths to her and let her know that if this is what she wants then you will not sit by and watch it happen. She wants to go be with him and knowing what and how he hurt 2 families then quite frankly tell her YOU deserve better than that. Let her go!

She needs to know that you will not wait idly for her to figure this out. You have a lot to offer the world and life is so short that you cannot afford to give her what she is not ready to accept. 

fantasy life does not equal real world.


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> More on the roller coaster over the past couple of days.
> 
> Like I said, she was fairly positive about 24 hours ago and we went our separate ways most of the day. She had a therapy session which I guess dredged up some old stuff. She said they talked little about the affair, she said that is a dead end and while she is still grieving over it, she knows it's over.
> 
> We had a little blow up last night. She started talking about the OM and how nice he was and this and that about him and how much she missed him. I shut her down and told her I do not want to talk about it ever again. This morning she said that she wanted a man that "challenged" her and stood up to her and appreciated what I did last night. I am slowly getting my balls back. She is also starting to talk about how I had abandoned her all these years and wasn't there emotionally and physically. I know this that's why we are here and I'm trying to Man Up! She said she doesn't know if she can go through with this because of her resentment towards me. Now comes out all the issues of resentment and anger over why we got here in the first place. The years of neglect on my part. The Mr. Nice Guy stuff. She is resentful and angry that she spent years in this marriage with me and there was little love to be had. I've read a lot about resentment and anger over the past day or so. Most say that you have to see the good and think about the future. It's one thing for me to say to her she should do this or that (which I haven't yet) and it's another for her to embrace the our future without dwelling on the past. She is spending a lot of time in the past right now.
> 
> She has agreed again this morning for me to lead her out of this and I told her a few things we need to do, as distasteful as it is right now, and that is spending as much time together as possible, doing fun things, sleeping in the same bed together, having lots of conversations, etc etc... She told me it is going to very tough but will do it for as long as it takes to figure this out.
> 
> From now on when she goes negative, I just need to put a stop to it. "How is this helping our future?" I need to actively work on leading this family...
> 
> Bob has it right... I'm going to be "Friendly, Helpful, Compassionate"


Don’t know if that’s the right way or not. Reckon it’s your Leader’s and General’s hats that are required right now. Nice, friendly and helpful doesn’t seem to have gotten much return for you.

You put your Leader’s hat on to lead the way out of the current situation and into a better situation. Before you can do that you’ll need a picture, agreed by both of you, of what the better situation is. You lead the creation of that picture.

When stuff happens that you will not tolerate, like when your wife talks about OM, you put your General’s hat on and tell her in no uncertain terms that you will not tolerate that behaviour and walk away.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

>>Don’t know if that’s the right way or not. Reckon it’s your Leader’s and General’s hats that are required right now. Nice, friendly and helpful doesn’t seem to have gotten much return for you.<<

MNG,

From what I read, you simply crave "back to normal".

Can you tell me why?

If you're really guilty of all that crap she says you did, why the hell would you want to resume "normal"?

You ever hear the definition of insanity?

I keep promising to yield the floor to AffairCare and MEM.

I actually will the first time I see you post where you're not wanting so badly to "normalize" this.

She even TOLD YOU she's glad you stood up to her.

Believe her.

Show her it was no accident.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> >>Don’t know if that’s the right way or not. Reckon it’s your Leader’s and General’s hats that are required right now. Nice, friendly and helpful doesn’t seem to have gotten much return for you.<<
> 
> MNG,
> 
> From what I read, you simply crave "back to normal".
> 
> Can you tell me why?
> 
> If you're really guilty of all that crap she says you did, why the hell would you want to resume "normal"?
> 
> You ever hear the definition of insanity?
> 
> I keep promising to yield the floor to AffairCare and MEM.
> 
> I actually will the first time I see you post where you're not wanting so badly to "normalize" this.
> 
> She even TOLD YOU she's glad you stood up to her.
> 
> Believe her.
> 
> Show her it was no accident.


Reckon MNG's wife wants him to be DOMINANT, Take the Lead and Take Charge.

But. I wonder if a man who’s been a stay at home nice guy for years can make that type of change. The quickest change comes about by the declaration and enforcement of personal boundaries. Change happens in an “instant”.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

An update...

She is on her way to see her parents and brother on the plane this morning. We had a talk for about a 1/2 an hour before I took her to the airport. Again she re-iterated that she wants me to lead her out of this and also that she has a ton of resentment and anger. I know that I need to shut down that resentment/anger talk just like I did the talking about the OM. She can talk the the therapist about it, but I don't really want to hear it. It is unproductive. I have already told her we need to have a sit down when she comes back after this weekend and go through what I want the immediate future will look like. She did say that the couple of days where she was so luvy duvy was an aberration and that she was still riding on euphoria after the affair really ended. She is now dealing in reality. She said that she has seen great changes in me in the last month, but it's only been a month and she doesn't trust that it won't go back to the way it was. I also re-iterated that she needs to be in 100%, fully active participant in this marriage or we will never know if it can work. It will be something completely different than before and I am 100% sure whatever happens she and I will be on much better footing than in the past. She agreed to that.

Then she sends me an email from the airport saying yet again that she wants me and the therapist to lead on this thing. She is feeling indifferent about me right now. I have spiritually, physically and emotionally neglected her (and she did it to me too she said).

OK, I already knew this after I read NMMNG about 2 months ago, that's why I'm changing myself (for myself). 

I hear you Bob, I will put on my leader hat and lead. It dawned on my weeks ago that we can never go back to the marriage we had before. She even mentioned that this morning. She wanted to know what our marriage might look like in the future if we are leaving so much stuff behind. I said it can only get better or we need to divorce, but we won't even know those answers for many months...


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Reckon MNG's wife wants him to be DOMINANT, Take the Lead and Take Charge.
> 
> But. I wonder if a man who’s been a stay at home nice guy for years can make that type of change. The quickest change comes about by the declaration and enforcement of personal boundaries. Change happens in an “instant”.
> 
> Bob


It seems like he simply cannot wait to abandon those things that worked - when they were the only things that worked.

Even she is reinforcing that she wants more edge. Perhaps she's letting him know that sort of conflict is where the spark she so desperately seeks resides.


----------



## IanIronwood

This might be a good time for you to reflect, retrench, and prepare for the long road ahead without her around to joggle your elbow. Use the time to plan for the next few months and outline some concrete, achievable goals. 

Actually, it's you who should fear you going back to the way things were, not her. But you don't need to hear from her how much it's your fault. Your marriage won't look very good at all if you accept that without her accepting some responsibility for the issues, too. She's indifferent? That was said in order to provoke you and piss you off. She's challenging your love for her because it finally dawned on her that indifference, not anger, is what's threatening to the stability of the relationship, which is something that you taught her. So she's stinging you with that as she leaves, hoping to get a rise out of you. Another little sh!t test for you to chew on while she's out of town, being all dramatic about whether or not she can "manage to get over her resentment". 

So ignore her. Don't talk about anything important over the phone or via email. Let her sort stuff out in her own mind without inflicting it on you. You just keep moving forward on your own mission.


----------



## Affaircare

AFEH said:


> ... But. I wonder if a man who’s been a stay at home nice guy for years can make that type of change. The quickest change comes about by the declaration and enforcement of personal boundaries. Change happens in an “instant”.


I 100% understand what you're saying here, in that a change like this is similar to a light going on--prior to that "instant" there was just darkness, then FLICK that light is on and it illumines not only where the light is but also other areas! That part of the change is "instant" indeed. Furthermore, as least for me, when I read MNG's posts it does sounds like he "sees it" and there has been that lightbulb moment!

However, I think the issue lies more with the ongoing, day-to-day choices that fall within the newly lit area. MNG is used to picking choices like a nice guy, and frankly this can become a habit. It's "easier" to pick the path of least resistance, and I think what both Mrs. MNG and MNG both need to see is some consistent choosing of a healthier, leadership attitude on day-to-day things. For example, when a decision needs to be made, will he "pass the buck" or man up and stand for his choice? When he needs to say something that's hard or scary to say...will he say it right up and be strong in it, or will be avoid it?


One thing I personally find interesting though is the concept that's being promoted of "shut down the OM talk" and "when she blames you, shut her down." Now I realize I am WAAAAAY out on a limb here but if a wife "shut down" her husband she would be disrespecting him. Even in the alpha male world, a wife "shutting down" a husband would be unacceptable behavior--thus I don't see how it's profitable to encourage him to do what he himself would not (and should not) accept. Should he sit there and listen attentively to her blame? No. Absolutely not. But rather than "shutting her down" (which in no way communicates "We are a team now, and when you need to express something to me, it is safe for you to do so") I would suggest a self-confident, assertive response such as: _"I have looked at myself in the mirror and I'm working on changing my issues; however, I will not accept blame for the choices you made. I'm more than willing to continue from this point forward demonstrating the changes I'm making, and I'm more than willing to hear a respectful request that you have of me, but I am telling you now that the choice you made to be unfaithful and turn to another is fully on you and I will not take that burden. I'll leave that where it belongs--on you to deal with."_ 

Part of the issue I see rearing it's ugly head is that MNG right now wants to be laying the foundation of what his new marriage will be built on. Previously it sounds like the dynamic was "Marriage run by the Mrs" and now it sounds like folks are advocating "Marriage run by MNG"--but both of those models will eventually fail because one partner feels (and is) controlled by the other! On the other hand, if the foundation is laid now for a mutual marriage, where both are transparent (honest enough to let the other "see through" and see their True Self), and where both are safe, and where both are having their needs met and willing to meet their partner's needs...neither is controlled and it's a marriage of intimacy.


----------



## AFEH

IanIronwood said:


> This might be a good time for you to reflect, retrench, and prepare for the long road ahead without her around to joggle your elbow. Use the time to plan for the next few months and outline some concrete, achievable goals.
> 
> Actually, it's you who should fear you going back to the way things were, not her. But you don't need to hear from her how much it's your fault. Your marriage won't look very good at all if you accept that without her accepting some responsibility for the issues, too. She's indifferent? That was said in order to provoke you and piss you off. She's challenging your love for her because it finally dawned on her that indifference, not anger, is what's threatening to the stability of the relationship, which is something that you taught her. So she's stinging you with that as she leaves, hoping to get a rise out of you. Another little sh!t test for you to chew on while she's out of town, being all dramatic about whether or not she can "manage to get over her resentment".
> 
> So ignore her. Don't talk about anything important over the phone or via email. Let her sort stuff out in her own mind without inflicting it on you. You just keep moving forward on your own mission.


That’s very insightful.

But don’t we all get “locked-in” to our wives? Don’t we all take to heart and believe the things they say about us? Don’t we all put so much of our identity and esteem into how our wife sees us? More especially a stay at home nice guy husband?

And isn’t a lot of this all about rediscovering who we were before we were married? Or isn’t it all about as BBW says something like “Decide who you want to be and be that Man.”?

Isn’t this all about self-worth, and being dependent on just one person, our wife, for our sense of self-worth?

A lot of this is about breaking that dependency, in this case financial as well as emotional dependencies, on our wives? And don’t we in that way become far more of an independent, stand-up man?

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Affaircare, I’m a yes and no with what you say. Sure, I think a good marriage like any other partnership is a negotiated partnership. That’s where the Leader comes in, in that someone has to be the visionary and take the lead. Plus, MNG’s wife is going through a change and as far as I can see wants MNG to be more dominant and hence the take charge, no messing General.

If change really does take place they will for sure both struggle with their new ways of being. It will even be difficult for MNG’s wife to drop her take charge, dominant role, as difficult as it will be for MNG to drop his nice guy role. So there will be a transitionary period at the end of which they may work together better or maybe the changes will be too much and they’ll end up strangers. But nothing ventured, nothing gained and no gain without pain and all that.

One things for sure and that’s unless both are 100% committed to the marriage and family it wont work. My biggest concern is that MNG loves, respects and appreciates his wife seemingly far more than she loves, respects and appreciates him.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I hear you Bob, I will put on my leader hat and lead. It dawned on my weeks ago that we can never go back to the marriage we had before. She even mentioned that this morning. She wanted to know what our marriage might look like in the future if we are leaving so much stuff behind. I said it can only get better or we need to divorce, but we won't even know those answers for many months...


Not at all sure I would have answered in the way you did. Maybe next time round ask your wife what would really work for her? Then you’ll be able to see if you want to/can conform or otherwise to her vision of the future and if you feel good about it.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

>>"I have looked at myself in the mirror and I'm working on changing my issues; however, I will not accept blame for the choices you made. I'm more than willing to continue from this point forward demonstrating the changes I'm making, and I'm more than willing to hear a respectful request that you have of me, but I am telling you now that the choice you made to be unfaithful and turn to another is fully on you and I will not take that burden. I'll leave that where it belongs--on you to deal with."<<

When I say the words, "shutting down", this is what I mean.

I realize that mileage may vary.

Simply refusing to talk isn't the solution.

The above is a rock-ribbed rock-solid statement of boundaries.

I suggest MNG memorize it - and USE IT.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I am very fearful that I will slip back into old patterns. Luckily I have some good support from my therapist and I keep the NMMNG and NUTs books close by when I feel I need some help. Also, you guys keep me on track.

Funny about the anger thing. I told her last night that her anger at me is getting old and I'm letting it flow off my back. Now she is latching onto "indifference" as the new thing... hmmm... I simply don't think she has an indifferent bone in her body, she is very strong willed.

I was going to do exactly that... work on some goals for this marriage. Long and short term. She wanted to me to do this too. Part of my taking the lead on this thing

Good thing I read this because I was going to write her this huge email, which is never a good thing!

As for wanting this marriage to work out more for me than her. That has been a concern of mine too. Like she said, she is "indifferent". But I also think that deep down she wants it to work out, otherwise she'd be gone by now. She just said to me this morning that she is in this, fully committed for quite a while. Months, maybe years...

It will be fun to see if she can keep away and not call or text me... I will definitely not initiate contact this weekend!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> >>"I have looked at myself in the mirror and I'm working on changing my issues; however, I will not accept blame for the choices you made. I'm more than willing to continue from this point forward demonstrating the changes I'm making, and I'm more than willing to hear a respectful request that you have of me, but I am telling you now that the choice you made to be unfaithful and turn to another is fully on you and I will not take that burden. I'll leave that where it belongs--on you to deal with."<<
> .


I have told her this almost exactly a couple of times. Maybe not so simply, but the message was there. She agreed with me this morning that the burden of the affair is no longer on me, but rest solely with her and she has to deal with it with the therapist or close friend. In fact, she thanked me this morning for telling her to stop talking about it. It was that kind of take charge attitude she liked!


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I have told her this almost exactly a couple of times. Maybe not so simply, but the message was there. She agreed with me this morning that the burden of the affair is no longer on me, but rest solely with her and she has to deal with it with the therapist or close friend. In fact, she thanked me this morning for telling her to stop talking about it. It was that kind of take charge attitude she liked!


Believe her.

She wants you to re-read my favorite link


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> .. I will definitely not initiate contact this weekend!


Don't break that contract with yourself. That's a boundary (N.U.T) on your own behaviour, not someone else’s behaviour towards you.

You're doing well!

Bob


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I am very fearful that I will slip back into old patterns. Luckily I have some good support from my therapist and I keep the NMMNG and NUTs books close by when I feel I need some help. Also, you guys keep me on track.
> 
> Funny about the anger thing. I told her last night that her anger at me is getting old and I'm letting it flow off my back. Now she is latching onto "indifference" as the new thing... hmmm... I simply don't think she has an indifferent bone in her body, she is very strong willed.
> 
> I was going to do exactly that... work on some goals for this marriage. Long and short term. She wanted to me to do this too. Part of my taking the lead on this thing
> 
> Good thing I read this because I was going to write her this huge email, which is never a good thing!
> 
> As for wanting this marriage to work out more for me than her. That has been a concern of mine too. Like she said, she is "indifferent". But I also think that deep down she wants it to work out, otherwise she'd be gone by now. She just said to me this morning that she is in this, fully committed for quite a while. Months, maybe years...
> 
> It will be fun to see if she can keep away and not call or text me... I will definitely not initiate contact this weekend!



Exactly. Whether she notices or not, she's playing you by manipulating your fears and hopes. She gets angry, you get indifferent. She gets indifferent, you get hopeful -- in another direction. If you return her indifference with indifference, you're staring her down. She's expecting you to break any minute, to have missed her so much while she's gone, and felt so remorseful about what's happened -- not to mention so terrified that your marriage won't work out that you're willing to do ANYTHING to get it back -- to put you in a psychologically weak position. It's an attempt for her to control the situation by controlling your emotions. 

So don't engage. Let her spin her wheels. Expect more indifference, more "I don't think I can really do this", more "I don't feel the chemistry", more "I need to feel a spark", and a LOT more "You know, this is really all your fault; you made me do this" before you're ready for any serious work on the marriage. 

Now is not the time to be equal partners, treating your wife as if she did nothing wrong. Nor is it the time to accept a greater share of the responsibility than she. Now is the time to plot your course into the future and demand that she either join you . . . or get her @$$ in the lifeboat and start paddling towards elsewhere. 

Heh. Buy a pirate captain hat. That'll freak her out. But you're the captain . . .


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> It seems like he simply cannot wait to abandon those things that worked - when they were the only things that worked.
> 
> Even she is reinforcing that she wants more edge. Perhaps she's letting him know that sort of conflict is where the spark she so desperately seeks resides.


I missed this before... She does want more edge and for me to push back on her. She has been telling me that in the past few days. I have been pushing back on her. I did it last night and she thanked me for it. I am a relatively old dog, but I can still learn plenty of new tricks!


----------



## MEM2020

If need be you tell her "It is ok to FEEL indifferent as long as you DEMONSTRATE commitment. Feelings will be volatile for a while. Commitment needs to be steady. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> I am very fearful that I will slip back into old patterns. Luckily I have some good support from my therapist and I keep the NMMNG and NUTs books close by when I feel I need some help. Also, you guys keep me on track.
> 
> Funny about the anger thing. I told her last night that her anger at me is getting old and I'm letting it flow off my back. Now she is latching onto "indifference" as the new thing... hmmm... I simply don't think she has an indifferent bone in her body, she is very strong willed.
> 
> I was going to do exactly that... work on some goals for this marriage. Long and short term. She wanted to me to do this too. Part of my taking the lead on this thing
> 
> Good thing I read this because I was going to write her this huge email, which is never a good thing!
> 
> As for wanting this marriage to work out more for me than her. That has been a concern of mine too. Like she said, she is "indifferent". But I also think that deep down she wants it to work out, otherwise she'd be gone by now. She just said to me this morning that she is in this, fully committed for quite a while. Months, maybe years...
> 
> It will be fun to see if she can keep away and not call or text me... I will definitely not initiate contact this weekend!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> If need be you tell her "It is ok to FEEL indifferent as long as you DEMONSTRATE commitment. Feelings will be volatile for a while. Commitment needs to be steady.


I would say that she is demonstrating commitment to the "see if this is will work out". She has said that she is here for a long while to work it out. She said that she will not get back into our bed again until her trust in me has gotten to a certain level. She continues to sleep downstairs, but is obviously spending more time with me and the kids. If there is one thing that I learned from this thing is to have infinite patience.

She has called a couple of times so far, but our conversations have been light and innocuous and then she wants to talk to the kids. She wants to talk to them at least 2 times a day. I would say that is different than previous trips where she seemed to be OK talking once a day or every other day. This is probably giving her a good feel what it will be like away from her kids for an extended period of time... 

When she gets back I think 1 of 2 things will happen. She will come to some revelation that she really needs to commit to this relationship or she will move further away from me. Hard to predict. I find that when she goes on business trips or something like this, she has done a lot of thinking. Especially with her family there, I'm sure there is a lot of talking going on. Unfortunately, her brother is divorced and then went on to become the OM with a married woman for many years. Finally had the balls to leave her and now is with a stable relationship, but I am concerned about what advice he is giving his sister...


----------



## IanIronwood

DO NOT let her back into your bed until YOUR trust in HER is re-established. And you should make that clear to her. She likely sees sex as her hole-card, the one thing that will make you capitulate. Just decide that you're going to be celibate for the next six months and even take the possibility of sex off the table. Otherwise she will be very tempted to use it against you at some point. If you are clear that you do not want to have sex with her right now, then you are sending a clear message. 

I mean, she's going to have to be worthy to sleep with the new you, and she's just not coming across as such.


----------



## MAD OBX

I'm an idiot an know nothing. So don't listen to me. But... 

I think the tone of this whole thread is off. 

Is this really a war with your wife? Do you expect to find peace through framing her in the enemy role?

Also, is this what a self-content leader of a man would do? Does a man fear his woman to such an extent? Does he wage mind and emotional battle against her? 

I don't believe that is leader behavior. 

Do you want a woman who constantly has her tail between her legs? Or do you want your woman to come back from this strong with a renewed sense of herself?

My advice...

Drop all the games and legal maneuvering. Make it less about what you want and more about what she wants to be. Let her know what you're doing. What you want and how you feel, but tell her to do what she wants. 

Also, there probably was a reason why she went to this guy in the first place... take some responsibility for that. What journey are you on as a person? 

Nothing more attractive than a person who is going somewhere, can admit he's wrong, is able to change for himself (not someone else) and can face the uncertain future without expectations. 

Again I'm just an idiot who has made all these mistakes. Take it for what it's worth.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

The Captain doesn't worry about the gossip on the poop deck.

Man up brother.

How you lead largely determines this outcome.

It has very little to do with what anyone else does or says.

She keeps telling you she wants you to stand up to her. That likely includes ignoring/turning down "conditional" sex overtures.

When she figures out that won't sway your strength, you'll really be on the right road.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MAD OBX said:


> I
> Is this really a war with your wife? Do you expect to find peace through framing her in the enemy role?
> 
> Also, is this what a self-content leader of a man would do? Does a man fear his woman to such an extent? Does he wage mind and emotional battle against her?
> 
> I don't believe that is leader behavior.
> 
> Do you want a woman who constantly has her tail between her legs? Or do you want your woman to come back from this strong with a renewed sense of herself?
> 
> My advice...
> 
> Drop all the games and legal maneuvering. Make it less about what you want and more about what she wants to be. Let her know what you're doing. What you want and how you feel, but tell her to do what she wants.
> 
> Also, there probably was a reason why she went to this guy in the first place... take some responsibility for that. What journey are you on as a person?
> 
> Nothing more attractive than a person who is going somewhere, can admit he's wrong, is able to change for himself (not someone else) and can face the uncertain future without expectations.
> 
> Again I'm just an idiot who has made all these mistakes. Take it for what it's worth.


I am on a mission now and that mainly revolves around myself, my business and my kids. If she wants to come along for the ride, I welcome her.

All of the maneuvering is just to get me on stable ground with her. I find I have less and less jockey to do as time goes on. I had the same thought as you, she has to really want it for it to succeed and she seems to be moving in that direction. We have talked extensively about where our marriage failed before the affair. I know what needs she has. I know what I need to do. I just need to start doing it when she gets back from this trip. I want her to be a full participant and not have me dragging her into it otherwise it will never work. The affair is still fresh in her mind so it's going to be weeks before she is probably full on board my ship...


----------



## IanIronwood

MAD OBX said:


> I'm an idiot an know nothing. So don't listen to me. But...
> 
> I think the tone of this whole thread is off.
> 
> Is this really a war with your wife? Do you expect to find peace through framing her in the enemy role?
> 
> Also, is this what a self-content leader of a man would do? Does a man fear his woman to such an extent? Does he wage mind and emotional battle against her?
> 
> I don't believe that is leader behavior.
> 
> Do you want a woman who constantly has her tail between her legs? Or do you want your woman to come back from this strong with a renewed sense of herself?
> 
> My advice...
> 
> Drop all the games and legal maneuvering. Make it less about what you want and more about what she wants to be. Let her know what you're doing. What you want and how you feel, but tell her to do what she wants.
> 
> Also, there probably was a reason why she went to this guy in the first place... take some responsibility for that. What journey are you on as a person?
> 
> Nothing more attractive than a person who is going somewhere, can admit he's wrong, is able to change for himself (not someone else) and can face the uncertain future without expectations.
> 
> Again I'm just an idiot who has made all these mistakes. Take it for what it's worth.



Is there no room for accountability, then? You're basically advocating allowing her to get away with nearly destroying the family and the marriage, and then be re-integrated back into the family unit with no real consequences for her behavior. The reason she went to this guy in the first place was her failure to live up to her responsibilities, and blaming MNG for it is like blaming the victim. I'm not denying that manning up was a requirement in this situation, but you cannot build a stable marriage on "what she wants to be". Both parties have to not only be responsible for their own crap, but they have to be accountable for what they have done. 

Sure, MNG needs to man up and plot his own course, and he's certainly made it known that he's willing to bring her along. But at this stage, he's got to be asking himself if she's even worth the effort after what she's put him through emotionally. Instead of capitulating to what HER version of the perfect man should be, he should focus on what HIS version of the perfect man should be, and she should either accept that or reject it. But allowing her to inform him on how he needs to change after her indiscretion, without her being held accountable for that, is not only unfair to him but it re-establishes the marriage on a totally unequal footing. 

He needs to reclaim his self-respect and his masculinity before he is personally powerful enough to offer her much in the way of grace. She needs to understand, at a very deep level, that the game she thought she was playing has changed, and it can never be changed back. If MNG doesn't hold her to the same higher standard he's holding himself to, then all of this manning-up is just posturing, and a year from now they'll be back in this same position.


----------



## MAD OBX

MNG

good for you. Sounds like you're getting your head back together. Things like that can definitely throw you for a loop. No question. 

I just wanted to counter a lot of the "man up" advice I see floating around here. 

My ever to be humble opinion: a man does not need to react just because he's provoked. A man chooses. A man makes his own life the way he wants it. No one can tell him he's right or wrong or inadequate or super. 

Again, this is something I struggle with daily. But it has transformed my life.


----------



## Conrad

Not sure how staying in control of yourself and choosing your response "counters" what's being said here.

But, that's likely a subject for several (additional) threads.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

IanIronwood said:


> This might be a good time for you to reflect, retrench, and prepare for the long road ahead without her around to joggle your elbow. Use the time to plan for the next few months and outline some concrete, achievable goals.


I had a really good session with the MC yesterday. He says she is not ready to do joint counseling just yet. So that is off the table for a while.

I described what had gone on the last week and he was a little surprised that my wife didn't bring up any of the email contact she was trying to have with the OM a week ago. These emails were along the lines of "I just want to see you one last time for closure" type of emails. The OM put a stop to them. Anyway, interesting that my wife didn't mention it to the MC. 

I guess they mostly talked about me and this "chemistry" thing. She is telling the MC that there has never been any "chemistry" between us and that when we were first dating she looks back at me as like a good friend that she was having sex with, not a true love. Then we had two children and stayed married for 16 years, go figure! But he told me not to dismiss this issue with my wife because it was very important to her going forward. He did agree with me that she is looking through the lens of the recent affair and her views are skewed right now, but still there is a nugget of truth to this in her mind.

The big thing on my end, and you guys have been telling me this, is to push back on her when she starts into those conversations about the anger, resentment and what I did in the past. Just have the backbone to stand up to her. Tell her what I honestly feel. Don't be afraid of the consequences, just do it. I will!

The last thing he said was the my wife owes it me and the kids to give this thing a shot. She simply can't walk away from this without trying. He told her this also, and that's why all this talk of leading her "out of this mess" has come up. I honestly think she is tired of running this marriage and wants me to step and I am willing to do that!

One question about going forward. I like the idea of setting some goals. I have written down about 10 of them. Just simple things like: No contact with OM, talking for 30 minutes every day, going out to dinner a couple times a month, etc. Easily achievable, but vital to establishing some type of relationship and seeing if this thing can work. Do you guys think I should ask her also what goals she wants out of this marriage? She has to want this thing to work, otherwise she'll never buy in.


----------



## Conrad

>>I described what had gone on the last week and he was a little surprised that my wife didn't bring up any of the email contact she was trying to have with the OM a week ago. These emails were along the lines of "I just want to see you one last time for closure" type of emails. The OM put a stop to them. Anyway, interesting that my wife didn't mention it to the MC.<<

Sadly, none of the rest of us are surprised by this.

She just isn't into truth telling when it makes her look bad.

Very prideful.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Update this morning... Just had a long text messaging session with the wife. Basically, she can't commit to any goals right now. Her heart isn't "open" and she wants to find out if she can even open her heart to me before she even commits to working on the marriage. (WTF?)

To that end, she wants to have some fun with me and go out and do some fun stuff like movies, concerts, dinner? Huh? Of course I'll do that...

Then she tells me that I need to bring my A game and wow her. It sounds like she wants to date me like a boyfriend starting from scratch!

I'm thinking of sending a set of ground rule to her before I can "wow" her. Those include, no contact with the OM, complete openness, no secrets, tell me where she is going and who she is seeing, tell me what you want out of this I can't work in a bubble and try to impress her. Simple guidelines before we can even start... don't you agree?


----------



## Conrad

She simply seems unable to get real without an agenda.

All of this is a power play.

Puts you squarely in the role of "nice guy" as you try to "win the heart" of a lying wayward spouse.

Something is wrong with this calculation.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> She simply seems unable to get real without an agenda.
> 
> All of this is a power play.
> 
> Puts you squarely in the role of "nice guy" as you try to "win the heart" of a lying wayward spouse.
> 
> Something is wrong with this calculation.


I get that feeling too. On one hand I want to make some progress here, but on the other it seems like she is still trying to control the direction of this thing.

What happened to the part where she wanted me to lead her out of this? Hmm... 

How can I put on my Captain's hat and take control of this ship?


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I get that feeling too. On one hand I want to make some progress here, but on the other it seems like she is still trying to control the direction of this thing.
> 
> What happened to the part where she wanted me to lead her out of this? Hmm...
> 
> How can I put on my Captain's hat and take control of this ship?


I'll put this plainly.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be in the midst of a "believeability" crisis.

She's lied to you.

She's actively lying to the counselor.

So, you get her "agreement" on something - what does it mean?

She's going to tell you how to "wow" her?

Complete crap.

You do exactly what she says and wait like a little dog for her to pat you on the head?

Not certain why she's "not ready" for joint counseling. Does that mean she hasn't agreed to it? How do you get the truth?

Something is "still" wrong here.


----------



## MEM2020

I agree i agree i agree




conrad said:


> she simply seems unable to get real without an agenda.
> 
> All of this is a power play.
> 
> Puts you squarely in the role of "nice guy" as you try to "win the heart" of a lying wayward spouse.
> 
> Something is wrong with this calculation.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> I'll put this plainly.
> 
> If I were in your shoes, I'd be in the midst of a "believeability" crisis.
> 
> She's lied to you.
> 
> She's actively lying to the counselor.
> 
> So, you get her "agreement" on something - what does it mean?
> 
> She's going to tell you how to "wow" her?
> 
> Complete crap.
> 
> You do exactly what she says and wait like a little dog for her to pat you on the head?
> 
> Not certain why she's "not ready" for joint counseling. Does that mean she hasn't agreed to it? How do you get the truth?
> 
> Something is "still" wrong here.


I get all that, but what is the next step?

The counselor said we wern't ready quite yet for joint session. Soon but not next week. She didn't lie, she neglected to tell the whole story. It's possible she was trying to move ahead and bury the past. That is what she has said to me a couple of times.

Like I said, I need something from her to move forward. What is that? some type of agreement about behavior?

She wanted me to "wow" her. Sound like she wants me to pursue her... I'm ready to a 180 again. This is nuts...


----------



## Conrad

>>She didn't lie, she neglected to tell the whole story. It's possible she was trying to move ahead and bury the past. That is what she has said to me a couple of times.<<

She never buries your past.

It's front and center when she confesses your sins.

Don't you see this?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> She never buries your past.
> 
> It's front and center when she confesses your sins.
> 
> Don't you see this?


Of course I see this... My therapist told me if this comes up again to push back on her and mention her infidelity and how she was disloyal to the family. I will do that when/if it comes up again.

The other thing is that this morning she said she is done with the past. Has moved on and doesn't want to talk about it. We shall see...

I just want to take her willingness to do something and move it into a positive experience...This has to be a two way street. I'm not going to follow her around like a lost puppy dog.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

>>Her heart isn't "open" and she wants to find out if she can even open her heart to me before she even commits to working on the marriage.<<

This is a steaming pile of crap - designed to break you back into a "nice guy" - with his eyes solely focused on winning her.

None of the niceties she suggests until this changes - and the lying stops.

No dates, no kissing ass, no nothing.

Tell her to get back to you when she figures it out, but the EFFORT re-building must be mutual. She is not "the decider".

Every word out of her mouth seems to give the impression that she's in charge of making this decision. That's exactly what got you both in this mess to begin with.

She is not a queen.

She is your wife.


----------



## Hicks

MisterNiceGuy said:


> To that end, she wants to have some fun with me and go out and do some fun stuff like movies, concerts, dinner? Huh? Of course I'll do that...
> 
> Then she tells me that I need to bring my A game and wow her. It sounds like she wants to date me like a boyfriend starting from scratch!
> 
> I'm thinking of sending a set of ground rule to her before I can "wow" her. Those include, no contact with the OM, complete openness, no secrets, tell me where she is going and who she is seeing, tell me what you want out of this I can't work in a bubble and try to impress her. Simple guidelines before we can even start... don't you agree?


She is giving you impossible hoops to jump through. All her comments revolve around YOU changing to be better. She needs to be broken of this mindset. The only way a marriage can work is if both people are simultaneously making the effort to meet each others needs. 

Tell her that you are 100% willing to make the effort to meet her needs, but she has to be 100% willing to make the effort to meet your needs. The motiviation you provide is the business, house, kids, life etc... But unless she is willing to say that she's commited to improving herself without putting it all upon you, then you will be hoop jumping endlessly.


----------



## F-102

She doesn't want to talk about it or do MC with you because she KNOWS that she was wrong and that SHE f***ed up, and she knows that she will have to answer for that, and she can't handle the burden.
She wants you to "lead her" so that WHEN-not IF-you fail at this (she'll be sure to find fault with everything you do), she can say "Well, I tried to work on this marriage, but he just didn't get it, so..."


----------



## MEM2020

MNNNNNNNNNNNNNG,
This is fairly simple stuff. 

You: If you truly have never been in love with me, if you have been pretending and lying to me for the better part of 15 years, then I want no part of this and we are done. 

And then just shut the f'uk up. And go back to your 180 and let her decide what she wants to do. 

Buddy, at some point, when your knees get sore enough you will stand up and overall you will feel much better. 

I warned you there would be at least one more ripple. Thing is if you keep wobbling you keep CREATING more ripples. Stop wobbling. Just focus on the business - your investor will likely buy HER out if you show you can run/grow it yourself. 

At this point I would tell her that she MUST get an outside job and do so quickly. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> I get all that, but what is the next step?
> 
> The counselor said we wern't ready quite yet for joint session. Soon but not next week. She didn't lie, she neglected to tell the whole story. It's possible she was trying to move ahead and bury the past. That is what she has said to me a couple of times.
> 
> Like I said, I need something from her to move forward. What is that? some type of agreement about behavior?
> 
> She wanted me to "wow" her. Sound like she wants me to pursue her... I'm ready to a 180 again. This is nuts...


----------



## IanIronwood

I concur. As painful as it might be, "hanging out and doing fun stuff" is code for "sh!t test". Just how much can she push you and get away with it? Flowers and candy? Diamonds? Dinner and dancing? All of that is going to feed her ego, convince her that she still has the power in the relationship, and she can get you to put up with just about anything until something better comes along.

"Her heart is not open" is code for "you haven't apologized for my affair yet". She's putting the onus on you for fixing the relationship. She wants you to pursue her, to date her, like you did in the old days. That would put you in the position of not only rewarding her behavior and accepting her treatment, but basically admitting that it was your fault that all of this happened. Then she could "forgive" you, but still use her "unopen heart" to continually blackmail you into doing whatever she wants you to. 

Give her a deadline to figure out whether or not she can open her heart. A week, a month, three months. But that's it. Then if she continues this equivocation, talk to an attorney. It's really that simple. If you aren't willing to walk away from the table when she puts these unreasonable demands out there, then it doesn't matter what cards are in your hand, she's winning the game.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I have to say it's only been a week since last contact with the OM. She's probably still not thinking clearly (at least on issues of the heart). I'm going to have a talk with her this week and lay it out for her about this open heart thing. I'm also going to talk to the MC about this too and get his take. He said all I should be doing now is watching for contact with the OM and just be in the moment with no expectations right now.

We all know what it's like to have a girlfriend that you really liked dump you, so I can imagine what she is feeling right now... hell she told me how she felt last week! Having said that, there needs to be some span of time and then a decision has to be made. I think a month might be a good amount of time...


----------



## Hicks

She is thinking clearly and she is right... There is no "spark". This is a fitness test where she is demanding something that you cannot provide (i.e. infatuation of a new relationship). This mindset will not disappear. You have to set her straight that you are willing to create a mature, deep, loving, safe, productive, kid-supporting marital relationship. Your requirement is that she has to buy into that concept and work on creating that from her end.


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## MAD OBX

MNG,

My (idiotic) advice (for what it's worth):

She says: "I want you to wow me."

you say: "Whew, that sounds like a lot of work. I don't know if I can meet that kind of expectations. I'm really good at disappointing people. Very lazy. Ask anyone."

This is a test... even though she doesn't really even know she's doing it. Don't get involved in it. 

Your job here is to give her reasons to LEAVE.... NOT convince her to stay. Really important that you take that stance. 

Fastest way to stability. Say things like: "Are you sure you don't want to date some more guys. Maybe there's somebody out there who could WOW you better than I can." 

All these comments are right that she needs to convince you of her intentions, stability, etc. But you can't demand those things and expect an honest answer. I'm sure, she's still not sure what she wants. Don't play the game. 

She wants to have "fun". Say, "Okay, but I'm not that fun. Most people find me fairly boring." etc. 

As always, I'm an idiot and know nothing. My wife however thinks I'm the man. And I never tell her I'm going to WOW her. And yet it happens all the time.


----------



## SaffronPower

Hicks said:


> She is thinking clearly and she is right... There is no "spark". This is a fitness test where she is demanding something that you cannot provide (i.e. infatuation of a new relationship). This mindset will not disappear. You have to set her straight that you are willing to create a mature, deep, loving, safe, productive, kid-supporting marital relationship. Your requirement is that she has to buy into that concept and work on creating that from her end.


I agree with this statement, but I also think giving her more time, like the month you mentioned is generous and realistic.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

Serious question.

Do you feel sorry for her?

When you say things like, "She probably feels like we did when our girlfriend dumped us as teenagers", I cringe.

Sympathy is not the right emotion for this.

The proper emotion for her and studmuffin's behavior is "outrage". She put EVERYTHING you worked for at risk. Calling her an ingrate selfish POS is rather mild in this regard.

If you aren't outraged? Please schedule counseling sessions 2x per week and work through whatever it is that's keeping you from processing these emotions correctly.

This is why we're on page 6000 of this thread.

I wish you well. Please get some help. And - for your kid's sake - do it today.


----------



## eagleclaw

Well I'm back from holidays, and caught up on your thread. An my original premise still stands. You need to change the dynamic of this relationship around completely.

You should not be even entertaining the notion of proving your committment to her and "wowing her". What the hell is that. She's the one that has put the marriage in jeopardy.

She is fighting hard at turning the tables and retaining the power of this relationship. I wouln't even say she is trying to steal your power, but that she is asking you to hand it to her. 

You really don't have any play left but to play hardball.

You need to tell her to get her head on straight and decide what she wants. And that you don't trust her, and that you don't know for sure that you two have a future. In in light of everything she has said, and lied about, and the EA - that it is HER who needs to convince YOU why you should have hope and how she can enrich your life. 

She says she never loved you, she had an EA, she has resentment for endless reasons, blah blah blah. What about you? Do you get to have resentment for past transgressions? How about EA's? 

Your already cooking, cleaning, having a sexless life, manning up and momming up? What is she bringing. 

You need to turn this around and play some hardball. She is still waffling back and forth and playing with you. She goes on about her reservations again and i would immediatly start talking about how the seperation should be initiated and how to get her out of the hosue immediatly as you have no interest in a non-benificial, non-committed relationship.


----------



## IanIronwood

Eagleclaw makes several compelling points. I urge you to keep them in mind the next time you communicate with her.


----------



## spartan

1. WOW yourself, not her
2. WOW your kids, not her
3. WOW your business, not her


----------



## eagleclaw

If and when she becomes the woman you signed up for, worthy of your love, worthy of your trust, and putting the same value on the relationship as yourself - then at that point "wow" her. But don't stop doing the manning up things that have served you well.


----------



## nice777guy

spartan said:


> 1. WOW yourself, not her
> 2. WOW your kids, not her
> 3. WOW your business, not her


Very well put.

You can never go wrong by focusing on yourself.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I knew it... her family must've worked on her, even though she was talking about WOWing and A game... She said she is serious about a divorce. Period. 

I knew that hanging out with her divorced brother and his divorced girlfriend would make it all seem OK. She didn't mention it, but I know what she saw. I think I need someone more stable, this is for the birds!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> MNNNNNNNNNNNNNG,
> This is fairly simple stuff.
> 
> You: If you truly have never been in love with me, if you have been pretending and lying to me for the better part of 15 years, then I want no part of this and we are done.
> 
> And then just shut the f'uk up. And go back to your 180 and let her decide what she wants to do.
> 
> At this point I would tell her that she MUST get an outside job and do so quickly.


This is where I am tonight, back to the 180. Getting the life I was already getting. I just have to get on with my life and she wants to come on board, then so be it. She has flip flopped on the marriage so much in the past couple of months from almost moving out, to telling me she loved me a week ago, it's enough to make me crazy. I know she is going through a lot, but I'm doing the 180 again...

Her job prospects are good and I think that's what's bringing this on too.


----------



## Powerbane

Then make the move MNG. Lawyer up today. No need to wait. 

None at all. See ya - don't the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya. 

Yes I agree damn toxic family BS. You want to just tell them to mind their own damn business. But it wouldn't do any good. 

Let her go. I know it hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## spartan

I think getting a lawyer is too soon. Guys, he's been in counseling a MONTH. He has 15 years invested in a marriage with kids and our advice to him is to get a lawyer for a divorce??

He needs to stop flip flopping between manning up and playing mng. YOu need to pick a side here and we all know that in your current state of the R that being mng is NOT working. 

As far as manning up goes, you dont have to take that process and become a complete jerk about it. Just like women dont want a doormat they also dont want an a$$hole either. Big difference in being confident and being arrogant....

This will be hard for you to accept, however, what is it that she found sooooo attractive in the OM? What did he do to make her fall for him? What attracted her to YOU in the first place? What made her say yes to you when you proposed?

We all know what she did was wrong and no one will deny that fact. If you are willing to make this R work then you need to find out the answers to those questions. The easiest road FOR NOW is to both file for a divorce. You both will start dating again, the butterflies and that spark will be present in your life again, however after 2 or 3 years it fades away- just like it faded away and was replaced with different emotions in your marriage. Difference is that will you or her be in a better place when that time comes?

I am in agreement though that until she comes to her senses she needs to leave the house. Let her be on her own and try out the real world for a while. You cant make her come back to you so why waste that energy? Spend that energy on you and if and when she realizes her mistake she can come back home to a much better man.

my 2 cents-


----------



## MsLonely

Hi, my husband dealt with my EA in a totally different way.

He's damn humble and in fact, he put all the faults on himself for not taking care of my emotional & physcial needs.

Now he dates me once a week.

He's literally wooing me after I told him about my EA. He never ever checked or spyed my email. 

Isn't it a great thing to woo your wife and fall in love with her all over again?

If you truely love your wife, it's a very beautiful thing to do.

Especially, she's claimed she couldn't feel any chemistry with you. That basically means her sexul life sucks. Without chemistry, how great can sex be?

Why can't you create some chemistry or at least, some surprise?

I feel much loved now and I'm a lot happier wife.

Most importantly, I don't feel there's a need to process my EA to a PA. Especially my husband has showed his best sincerity to save the marriage and to improve our relationship, which gave me lots of hope!

What so wrong to be a loving & passionate husband and why can't you woo your wife?

Do you think my husband is less manful than you? He simply made me understand he just loves me so much.

You keep saying you really want the marriage to work, but your wife needs some chemistry, and she would like to feel wooed, you already refused to give. It made me wonder what else you can offer?

You didn't give any hope to her that tells her you're a fun loving husband.

For her, it's very frustrating to communicate with you. It's possible she's finding a way to break free. Things get worse and worse after 48 pages.


----------



## MsLonely

What so wrong she did? Your wife sounds like a criminal in your thread but she didn't fk any man outside the marriage.

She's too weak to cheat. She should come to take a look here to see how she's judged by ppl, so she understands how ugly she is in your eyes and how you checked her emails.

You request her 100% honesty but you are reading her emails? Did you get her permission?


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## nice777guy

I get very confused with the advice on this thread.

Wondering - MisterNiceGuy - do you WANT to stay married?

I know you want to Man-Up - and not sit back while her EA continues - but do you want to work on your marriage?


----------



## SaffronPower

I like the Lawyer up idea.


----------



## spartan

MsLonely said:


> What so wrong she did? Your wife sounds like a criminal in your thread but she didn't fk any man outside the marriage.


What is so wrong? Are you seriously asking this question?? You don't have to be physically intimate with another individual to commit adultery. (thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife....) That is for a different topic all together-

MNG spent 15 years building a life together for his wife and his children. He built a life with this woman to create a safe, loving and nurturing environment to raise children and plan for retirement and beyond. He gave her his heart when he said "I DO" and vowed to be there for her through all of life's trials and tribulations. 

Fast forward 15 years- Life happens and relationships go through their normal ups and downs and he is steady as a good provider and becomes a beta Mr Nice Guy to her. She feels the spark leave the relationship and instead of his wife coming to him and explaining what was missing from their lives she decides ON HER OWN accord with NO regards or respect for his feelings or emotions and decides to get involved with another MARRIED man.

She became a SELFISH COLD-HEARTED B!TCH. She put herself above her family and her marriage. She is still carrying on the EA even after he found out about it!! The simple fact that MNG is willing to work and repair what has happened in their marriage makes him a winner in my book.

But you still don't see what she did wrong?.......:scratchhead:


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

nice777guy said:


> I get very confused with the advice on this thread.
> 
> Wondering - MisterNiceGuy - do you WANT to stay married?
> 
> I know you want to Man-Up - and not sit back while her EA continues - but do you want to work on your marriage?


I do want to stay married. I love my wife, even though she has put me through hell the past couple of months. I want to keep the family together, the kids, the house all of it. 

I'm confident the EA is done, just from her demeanor and not being sneaky anymore. 

I talked some more last night with her. More of the same about not having an emotional connection for me for years, which I agree too. She did say this time there was one in the beginning, which I knew. 

Every time I bring up divorce and lawyers she gets more resolute. Last time we got here about 3 weeks ago, she was on the verge of moving out, but backed down and we actually made some progress. I don't know about this time though. But the conversation was almost exactly the same.

A lot of stuff was said, not much if it in anger. I told her she hurt me deeply over the EA and she said I wasn't there for her for many years. She said there is nothing in her heart for me and it's so closed right now to me that she can't ever think there is a time where she could open up to me. I got her talking more about what she wanted in a relationship. I said tell me what you want in a marriage? It's all the standard stuff, she is the highest priority (after myself), I meet her needs emotionally, spiritually and physically. I told her I know all that now. I know what needs to be done for a fulfilling marriage. Somehow we got on the topic of listening and that sent her over the edge. I was never a good listener, but I am now. But that made her very upset and she stomped off to her lair. That's where we are today. I'm going back to the 180 for now. Not sure if I have any hopes left, but as everyone says it's not over until the divorce is final.

I keep telling myself that's it's only been 2 weeks since she broke off the EA. She is still mentally unstable at this point. I was just going to take it really slow this next couple of weeks but we got talking last night and I should've just walked away from it instead of pushing for answers. I think this is the biggest thing for me has been I've push too hard too soon. I'm pushing her away so I'm not going to push anymore. It's up to her to move out and find a divorce lawyer. I'm getting on with my life...

I'm half tempted to take MsLonely's advice. I'm not talking sending flowers, ILY notes and smothering her, but really try an conscious effort to be that guy she wants. I've been very distant the past few weeks. I'm tired of the mental judo going on and just want to have some fun with her and see if leads anywhere. This has not been much fun lately.


----------



## Conrad

It still sounds like you're feeling sorry for her.

Part of therapy is forgiving yourself.

Please immerse yourself in it. I believe it's the key for you.

It's way too easy for her to blame-shift and you seem all too willing to take it on.


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

MsLonely said:


> Hi, my husband dealt with my EA in a totally different way.
> 
> He's damn humble and in fact, he put all the faults on himself for not taking care of my emotional & physcial needs.
> 
> Now he dates me once a week.
> 
> He's literally wooing me after I told him about my EA. He never ever checked or spyed my email.
> 
> Isn't it a great thing to woo your wife and fall in love with her all over again?
> 
> If you truely love your wife, it's a very beautiful thing to do.
> 
> Especially, she's claimed she couldn't feel any chemistry with you. That basically means her sexul life sucks. Without chemistry, how great can sex be?
> 
> Why can't you create some chemistry or at least, some surprise?
> 
> I feel much loved now and I'm a lot happier wife.
> 
> Most importantly, I don't feel there's a need to process my EA to a PA. Especially my husband has showed his best sincerity to save the marriage and to improve our relationship, which gave me lots of hope!
> 
> What so wrong to be a loving & passionate husband and why can't you woo your wife?
> 
> Do you think my husband is less manful than you? He simply made me understand he just loves me so much.
> 
> You keep saying you really want the marriage to work, but your wife needs some chemistry, and she would like to feel wooed, you already refused to give. It made me wonder what else you can offer?
> 
> You didn't give any hope to her that tells her you're a fun loving husband.
> 
> For her, it's very frustrating to communicate with you. It's possible she's finding a way to break free. Things get worse and worse after 48 pages.


im sorry, but this is pure craziness.
so you cheated on your marriage and what did you learn?
if you want your husband to act differently then cheat, its ok.
that is pure manipulation. 
what about communication instead of giving yourself to another man to get what you want.
now you want MNG to put his self in a position to show his wife he can be manipulated the same way? i dont think so.
maybe he wasnt the best he could be but there are other ways than cheating, and yes, i would bet a paycheck it did go to a PA. just my opinion.
she is the one who needs to figure out she did wrong and nothing will change until she does.
i would have her or my [email protected] packed in a heart beat and gone.
thats what i finally did after being married 28 years with her having cheated off and on for the last 14.


----------



## nice777guy

Manning up alone isn't enough to save a marriage.

She stopped the EA - why kick her to the curb now?

Affairs don't happen in a vacuum. There must have been some need(s) that she felt MNG was not meeting and that's why she turned to another man. Either that, or she's a totally selfish ***** and he just needs to leave.

At some point - IF he wants to save the marriage (and he says he does) - those needs will need to be identified and he will need to "Husband Up" in order to make sure his marriage survives.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Manning up alone isn't enough to save a marriage.
> 
> She stopped the EA - why kick her to the curb now?
> 
> Affairs don't happen in a vacuum. There must have been some need(s) that she felt MNG was not meeting and that's why she turned to another man. Either that, or she's a totally selfish ***** and he just needs to leave.
> 
> At some point - IF he wants to save the marriage (and he says he does) - those needs will need to be identified and he will need to "Husband Up" in order to make sure his marriage survives.



Do you allow your wife to talk to you the way she's talking to him?

Is it "your fault" she did what she did?


----------



## IanIronwood

MNG, I know you're in a tough position, but my advice is to proceed as if the divorce is a foregone conclusion. Attempting to try to rescue it when your wife is so adamantly opposed seems futile -- or at least hopeless at the moment. 

I would go ahead and start interviewing divorce attorneys. Make it real, or at least make some visible progress. Start boxing things up. If she's committed to ending the marriage -- and it seems clear that she is -- then your feeling sorry for her and yourself over it isn't doing anyone any good. Rip the band-aid off and begin laying the foundation of your new life without her. Maintain the 180 resolutely -- after all, if she wants a divorce, what more is there to discuss? 

Pull the trigger on this thing. That's the only way you'll know if she's serious or playing you.


----------



## AFEH

MNG maybe try Acceptance on for size for a bit and see how it feels?

I Accept she is a cheater.
I Accept she is a liar.
I Accept she thinks nothing of breaking up another marriage.
I Accept she doesn’t love me.
I Accept she doesn’t want to live with me.
I Accept she thinks nothing of breaking our marriage up.
Etc.

Now ask yourself the questions “Do I want to live with a woman like that for the rest of my life?”. “Is that the type of woman I should invest myself in?”.

I think sometimes we don’t truly know the person we’ve been living with for years and that we maybe see them with new eyes. I think it highly unlikely that people change dramatically overnight.

Bob


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## eagleclaw

As mentioned, as soon as you start to regain some measure of power back she goes back to "I never loved you", "I don't know I we will ever reconnect" and you start to rethink your position and try and change to be what she wants. This of course is what got you here. She knows exactly how to make her monkey jump.

This has been pointed out to you in many different ways, by many different people. You just aren't getting it.

2 Options:

1)
Keep doing what you have been doing. Best case scenario you get back together for a short while before she goes batsh!t crazy again and you start this cycle again. Worst case scenario - she sees nothing new and you dont' even get to the face of making up for awhile.

2)
Man up completely. Shaked the boat. Enforce your boundries. Make her Meet your requirements. Make her wonder if YOU want to reconcile. Make her wonder where your going and what your doing. And get some home field advantage. Quit playing by her rules. Next time she waffles - tell her she's right. Your not sure you have those feelings anymore - not sure she can regain your trust. Not sure you can forget all the things she has said. Not sure things will ever be the same as when you married, not sure you want them too. Tell her to expidite her move to an apt. You set the rules of the game and make her decide if SHE wants to play ball.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> Do you allow your wife to talk to you the way she's talking to him?
> 
> Is it "your fault" she did what she did?


My wife was responsible for her actions.

Having said that - she once asked me what I would have rated our marriage on a 1-10 scale BEFORE all hell broke loose. I answered a "six". We can both look back to the time before her EA's and see that we both have things to work on.

My wife does not say the type of things that MNG's wife is saying right now. I don't know if his wife is still in "the fog" - or if its possible that she really feels like there's no room in her heart for him.

It almost seems like some of the advice here is more geared towards "winning" or punishing MNGs wife. That kind of attitude will not bring them back together.

If she's really THAT terrible, don't waste any more time in a toxic relationship in order to "punish" or get revenge - just move on.


----------



## Conrad

_*>>My wife was responsible for her actions.<<*_

THIS IS THE ENTIRE THING

I don't want him to "punish her". I want him to take care of him.

He continues to let her browbeat him and take on the guilt.

It's a losing situation - and one she insists upon.

If he manages to "win her", he will only "win her" until she gets bored and the next alpha catches her eye.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> _*>>My wife was responsible for her actions.<<*_
> 
> THIS IS THE ENTIRE THING
> 
> I don't want him to "punish her". I want him to take care of him.
> 
> He continues to let her browbeat him and take on the guilt.
> 
> It's a losing situation - and one she insists upon.
> 
> If he manages to "win her", he will only "win her" until she gets bored and the next alpha catches her eye.


Well - like I said - if she's truly THAT terrible and not just stuck in the fog, then its time to move on.

I think part of the reason this is on page 49 is because he's looking for advice on how to save his marriage, while most people here are telling him how to end it.

MNG - if you aren't sure - I still think the best advice was from Spartan - work on yourself, and focus on your kids and work. No matter how you feel, you won't go wrong and it will buy you some time to really think this over.


----------



## spartan

MNG no offense and please do not take this the wrong way, HOWEVER, your post "That's where we are today. I'm going back to the 180 for now" that comes across like a child in a sandbox stating that he is taking his toys and going home because the other children won't play with him the way he wants to play.

You were doing everything right with your manning up! You were covering a lot of ground and things were looking up for you! She was most importantly responding positively to you!! Now you are going to go ahead and change BACK to MNG?? What kind of message are you sending her? 

C'mon MNG you are better than this! you know what you want from her and until she is willing to give you that, why should you settle?


----------



## nice777guy

spartan said:


> MNG no offense and please do not take this the wrong way, HOWEVER, your post "That's where we are today. I'm going back to the 180 for now" that comes across like a child in a sandbox stating that he is taking his toys and going home because the other children won't play with him the way he wants to play.
> 
> You were doing everything right with your manning up! You were covering a lot of ground and things were looking up for you! She was most importantly responding positively to you!! Now you are going to go ahead and change BACK to MNG?? What kind of message are you sending her?
> 
> C'mon MNG you are better than this! you know what you want from her and until she is willing to give you that, why should you settle?


???

I always felt there was a large degree of overlap between "manning up" and doing a "180."

What am I missing?


----------



## IanIronwood

nice777guy said:


> My wife was responsible for her actions.
> 
> Having said that - she once asked me what I would have rated our marriage on a 1-10 scale BEFORE all hell broke loose. I answered a "six". We can both look back to the time before her EA's and see that we both have things to work on.
> 
> My wife does not say the type of things that MNG's wife is saying right now. I don't know if his wife is still in "the fog" - or if its possible that she really feels like there's no room in her heart for him.
> 
> It almost seems like some of the advice here is more geared towards "winning" or punishing MNGs wife. That kind of attitude will not bring them back together.
> 
> If she's really THAT terrible, don't waste any more time in a toxic relationship in order to "punish" or get revenge - just move on.


"Punish" her? No. Hold her accountable? Yes. Even if she came back in tears on her knees now, she's revealed the lengths to which she will go to place her own welfare and happiness above that of her family. That's a basic element of trust that is essential in a functional family that she's utterly removed, and then tried to blame on MNG. At this point, any reconciliation would be based entirely on her self-interest, not her heartfelt feelings. And MNG and his boys shouldn't have to wait around, their lives on hold, while she figures this out. 

She's wrecked what they had, as imperfect as it was.
She's made it clear that she isn't much interested in what they could have.
She's made it clear that any future relationship will revolve around her and her needs first and foremost, and any expectation of that changing is unlikely. 
And she's made it clear that she's willing and able to manipulate the situation -- including the lives of the people she allegedly holds closest to her heart -- in order to get what she wants, regardless of what is in their best interest.

Without trust, the marriage is doomed regardless.
She clearly doesn't trust him -- she says -- and she's made it impossible to trust her.
She's not the slightest bit contrite about it, except for some token statements. In fact, she blames MNG and hasn't accepted ANY responsibility for what happened at all.

MNG, you want happiness? Give her a divorce, quick and brutal. Get on with the rest of your life and find happiness with a more trustworthy, less selfish woman. If she wants to re-apply for the job at some point, she knows where the application is. But for now? 

Game over. That's what she wants. Give it to her and move on to someone younger, more understanding, and more suitable to who you are now, not who you were 14 years ago.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Well - like I said - if she's truly THAT terrible and not just stuck in the fog, then its time to move on.
> 
> I think part of the reason this is on page 49 is because he's looking for advice on how to save his marriage, while most people here are telling him how to end it.
> 
> MNG - if you aren't sure - I still think the best advice was from Spartan - work on yourself, and focus on your kids and work. No matter how you feel, you won't go wrong and it will buy you some time to really think this over.


NiceGuy,

When did you get her back?

- only when you were willing to lose her.

MNG isn't to that point - yet.

He continues to let her push him around and blameshift.

He still takes it on.


----------



## Deejo

Man Up = Meeting your own needs, modifying behavior, getting back to, or comfortable with who you are and where you want to go. Manning up has very little to do with a woman ... but a woman is often the catalyst.

180 = Do the opposite. Stop chasing. Stop looking for affirmation. Stop talking about the relationship. Stop seeking approval. Stop focusing on every minutia of what your partner says, does or thinks.
Stop doing all of the things that you think make you wonderful, when in fact they are pushing your partner away.

There is overlap, but they are not necessarily the same. 'Manning Up' doesn't require you to be in a failing marriage ... tragically it is the most common stage to warrant the change.

MNG,

I will reiterate.

You can't repair your marriage. Not with THIS woman. This insane, flip-flopping, indecisive, self deluding, mid-life crisis crazy version of the woman you married. This isn't the woman you want to 'win' back.

So what you need to do is proceed with ending your marriage to THIS woman. This isn't someone you should want to be married to.

Only two possible outcomes. She exorcises her 'I don't know how to be happy' demons and gets her sh!t together, or you divorce, and you are spared this ongoing, and potentially never-ending blame game and self-torture. You are then freed up to go looking for a new partner - not nearly as crazy as your last. Or accept that they are all crazy and you just shoot for _less_ crazy. 

It all works out.


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## spartan

nice777guy said:


> ???
> 
> I always felt there was a large degree of overlap between "manning up" and doing a "180."
> 
> What am I missing?


manning up - setting your boundaries, how much of a sh!t sandwich you are willing to eat or not, creating an action plan to further the relationship for the greater good of the family... 

in MNG's case he has done 4 180's which equals a 720 which if you picture it means he is back in the direction of a mister nice guy. 

If you do a 180, then you cannot waiver off the 180 and go back to what is comfortable and then have a situation arise where you feel the need to go 180 again. It sends a mixed message- Manning up is all about being resolute.


----------



## sinnister

It's clear MNG wants to save his marriage. But it's reading like a guy who constantly runs into a brick wall. Why are you doing that? It hurts and it's ultimately counter-productive.

I know there are a lot of advocates on this board that believe in staying with a marriage until the end...but in my very limited opinion this IS the end. What your so called wife is doing to you now is akin to emotional abuse. The flip flopping, the mind games, the living in your house yet having "no place in her heart" for you? Then why doesn't she just leave?

I see you internalizing the blame she places on you for not having felt a spark in years. You need 2 friction points to start that flame. It shouldn't be on you to keep the marriage flame alive.

I know it's going to fall on deaf ears right now because you just want your wife back. But as others have said, that woman is long gone.


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## Conrad

Tell her to get a job.

No place in her heart?

Quit mooching.


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## MisterNiceGuy

We just had another big discussion and again it ended in "I can't do this with you anymore!" The main themes were that I'm not confident and self assured enough for her, which I know being a Nice Guy for so many years. There has been 15 years of a crummy marriage. I've never been sexually attracted to you. Blah, blah... I've heard it all before and it feels closer and closer to the end game. She is looking for a job and has several solid leads so I think what will happen is that she'll find a pretty good paying job and move out as soon as she can.

I just have to focus on myself, my business and my kids and let her go. That's all I can do going forward. I hate to have to live in this house with her until she does go. The kids will be devastated. But she seems to think that they will OK if she gives them enough money. She wants them to live here and she will support them.

I know what all you guys are saying and I need to get on with my life. It's unfortunate that she hasn't really allowed me a last chance at this since I've become self-aware of all my "issues". But you are right. I'll find some divorced mother of two that's about 10 years younger than me, more attractive than my wife and more stable.

I'm tired of feeling beat up over this. She has been saying this to me for 3.5 months that she wants out and it always comes back to that. It seems like 1 step forward and 2 back. Never making any progress. She never opens up and gives in. I push back. I dangled divorce out there. I'm done playing those games... she can leave.


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## Grayson

Yes...yes she can leave.

Right now.

Not "when she gets a job." Not "when she saves up enough to get started."

RIGHT.

NOW.

She's been playing that card as long as this thread has been going. She's continued to demonstrate that she's just stringing you along for her own convenience. I say once again, you are not running a hostel for wayward spouses. Time for her to put up or shut up. There's a couch at a friend's house with her name on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

The fact that she's simply willing to leave the kids in the house with you tells you all you need to know.

I hope you finally are sick of it.

You should be.


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## Affaircare

MNG~

I wanted you to know that I've been following this post and thinking about it all weekend. I have mulled and mulled it over, and let it simmer, and I'm working on a response right now...but I know me! LOL It will probably be fairly long! So hang in there a moment and I'm on the job, okay?


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## MisterNiceGuy

Affaircare said:


> MNG~
> 
> I wanted you to know that I've been following this post and thinking about it all weekend. I have mulled and mulled it over, and let it simmer, and I'm working on a response right now...but I know me! LOL It will probably be fairly long! So hang in there a moment and I'm on the job, okay?


AC, always value your take on things...


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## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> The fact that she's simply willing to leave the kids in the house with you tells you all you need to know.
> 
> I hope you finally are sick of it.
> 
> You should be.


I am finally sick of it. 

I'm not sure what is keeping her here at this point. If it's so miserable for her, she would find a way to leave if she really, really wanted. It's not the money, she could get money from her parents or brother if she really wanted too. I'm not packing her stuff up and putting it on the front steps.

Again, I keep going back to the fact that it's been 3 weeks since I blew up the affair and 10 days since last contact. It's really too soon to expect her make rational decisions. Which is obvious based on my post so far...


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## MEM2020

MNG,
You are STILL making excuses for her - she is still in the fog, blah blah blah. She CHOSE to have an affair. It is on HER that she is in this fog and being abusive with her on/off/on/off nonsense. And it is on YOU that you radiate so much "fear" when she is the guilty party. Do a 180 and STAY there. Every time she started to fold - you found a way to fold faster. The night she was crying and you comforted her - she immediately started dictating terms to YOU. You have had a half dozen shots at this - and each time you have prevented her from feeling any real consequences. And THAT is all about fear. Fear of doing the RIGHT thing and letting her fully melt down. 

You have no legal basis for evicting her so don't even think about it. Do a 180 and if she folds STAY in the 180 for a week until she is fully imploded. And then go from there. At this point she may not do that. Each time you comforted her, you conveyed that you don't deserve her. Each time she put this all on you - same thing. 

It isn't "pushing back" when you engage in conversation with someone who is doing what she did to you. It is pushing back when instead you decline to converse - full stop. The fact you were talking to her - while she kept kicking you in the balls - says it all. Stop doing that. Your odds are now very very low. Assume they are zero and focus on you and the kids. 

As for her replacement, I would wait until she tells you a move out date and then let her know that you intend to file for divorce and start dating the day after she moves out. Stop being her plan B, it greatly reduces her respect for you. Even if you get divorced, you will need her respect to co-parent. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> I am finally sick of it.
> 
> I'm not sure what is keeping her here at this point. If it's so miserable for her, she would find a way to leave if she really, really wanted. It's not the money, she could get money from her parents or brother if she really wanted too. I'm not packing her stuff up and putting it on the front steps.
> 
> Again, I keep going back to the fact that it's been 3 weeks since I blew up the affair and 10 days since last contact. It's really too soon to expect her make rational decisions. Which is obvious based on my post so far...


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## Conrad

Affaircare said:


> MNG~
> 
> I wanted you to know that I've been following this post and thinking about it all weekend. I have mulled and mulled it over, and let it simmer, and I'm working on a response right now...but I know me! LOL It will probably be fairly long! So hang in there a moment and I'm on the job, okay?


I've started 5 posts and ditched them all.

Please be swift with your insight.

Hey - you are in the pantheon after all.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Wife came home from best friends a couple of hours ago and she was in a much better mood. Talking openly and joking about this whole thing. Now she's sound asleep on the couch. The basic thing she said was that we need to stop beating each other up and "be in the moment" and lighten up. That's all great and all, but really? You know what. I think I'm going to go quiet on this forum for a while until something major changes. We seem to be up and down so often right now it doesn't make sense to talk about every change from hour to hour. Until she stabilizes, I don't think she can give me a straight answer on how she feels... It's driving me nuts and it's out of character for her. I'm just going to give her some space and time and let her figure this out.


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## Affaircare

Thank you for your patience. I'll do my best to keep this succinct but you know me!  Let's dive in. 

I would hope by now that it's pretty apparent that I "get" and agree with the stronger male approach here. The fact of the matter IS that men have the authority in their household and are accountable, and that 99 times out of 100 the women in the USA want to rebel against this. The trouble with this is much like the affair actually. MEN hear that they are the authority and get all "bossy" and demanding and controlling, and that is not what authority means at all. It more like once you become an adult. Prior to adulthood, if you are even an older teen, if you make a life choice that breaks a window or damages a car, the teen may "have to get a job" to repay but ultimately the RESPONSIBILITY for what has occurred falls to the parents, whose job it is to oversee their nearly adult child. Same here. Men carry the accountability for their family--the wife and how they guide her, and their children and how they guide them. That in no way belittles women or their role--just that their role is not the burden of being accountable for "the family (husband, wife, and children)." Women's role is to be the nurturer, but the compliment to their husband and most likely HE would grow and become a better man because of her, and likewise she would grow and become a better woman because of him. 

Like an affair, the order of things is thrown out of whack and damage has been done, probably by both parties. For example, most women I know rebel against this notion of the man having the authority vested in him because a) he misused his authority as control and hurt her by doing so or b) they want it all for themselves and want to be the one in control!  Also, much like an affair, the bad behavior of one person (like if a husband misuses his authority) does not give the other persone license to respond with bad behavior of their own (trying to wrestle the authority away)! So both parties are doing it!

How does this parallel and affair? The order of things is out of whack and damage has been done, probably by both parties. When they met, the man looked and smelled good, paid attention to her, and spent HOURS with her--couldn't wait to be with her. HE called her; HE paid the bill at the restaurant; HE made the first move...he was THE MAN! And what did she do? BURN for him!! She looked and smelled good; admired him, and learned about his hobbies so she could be with him--couldn't WAIT to touch and kiss him!! See how the roles there were pretty "naturally" being played out? He was alpha in charge, the authority, but in a way that showed he was a man of many layers and only SHE got to see certain private layers. Likewise she let him pursue, she let him make the plans and take charge, but liked the way that he included her and opened up to her in a unique way--and she BURNED to express that in a physical way! 

Then along comes some bad choices. Maybe HE misuses his authority and she responds by rebelling ... then trying to take over herself. A power struggle ensues. Rather than being on the same team or that lusty kind of competition, they are pitted against each other--him fighting to maintain his authority, her to take it from him! He may become controlling or angry--she probably becomes manipulative. Pretty soon they recognize their marriage isn't THAT great, but cheating won't happen to them because "what we have is special; that only happens to other people." 

So someone at work notices her. He pays her attention, is polite and smiles, and he is alpha. He pursues her even when she tries to say "no" (Your mouth says "no" but your eyes say "Yes! YES!"). And she falls for it--and does a nose dive right into the fog. You know the rest right?

What happens is that now, all of a sudden, you realize "Wow, I lost my alpha edge. I lost ME. Slowly but surely I gave up all my interests, became a Yes-Man, was wimpy..." etc. So part of you GETS IT. You need to get the old you back--the guy you were back in the day when you looked and smelled good and you WERE who you ARE!! Furthermore, you also realize that as the man of the house, sometimes you have to stand up and stand firm when the whole rest of the world is a storming tornado all around you. Remember my image of the light house? You STAND THERE on solid ground, shining out that light like a HERO while the waves crash, the boat tosses, and the storm rages...why? Because as the man, you are the authority for your family; it is YOUR JOB. When you agreed to forsake all others, it meant that you volunteered to always consider the thoughts and feelings of another person (your wife) and what your decisions would mean to her. Then you had kids together and that added the accountability of always considering the effect your choices and actions would have on your wife AND your children!! You have this on your shoulders as your solemn duty. 

Sooooo...this means as the man you have to allow your wife to grow...allow her to experience the consequences of her choices (be they good or bad). Rather than stand in the way and say "I don't believe she has the moral character to deal with the results of her choices" you have to be brave enough to GET OUT OF HER WAY and if she chooses rope, keep feeding it to her until she hangs herself and LEARNS. Right now, as a nice guy, you stand in her way, mop up after her, clean up the messes she made, etc. Well here's a mess she made: she stood before God and family and promised to FORSAKE ALL OTHERS for you. That means SHE volunteered to always consider you in all her choices -- and she promised to give you 100% of her affection and loyalty. She purposely made the mess of turning to another man. She purposely made the mess of choosing her own happiness before her own children. Now, she'll say stuff like "How could you tell my parents and drag my name through the mud?" but in real life all you did was tell them the TRUTH! Her ACTIONS and choices are what is dragging her name through the mud!! She'll say things like "I don't want the kids to think I'm abandoning them" WHY NOT? That is EXACTLY what she is doing? Rather than calling this a Love Affair, call it what it is out loud: ADULTERY. And rather than telling the kids "Your mom and I both love you but we can't live together" call it what it is and bring it to the light of day: "Your mom wishes you didn't feel like she was abandoning you, but she is thinking of her own self more than you right now." Why not CALL IT WHAT IT IS?? 

*BUT....!!!!*

(and that is a huge but...)

The other side to that exact same coin is that not only do you have to call it what it is, speak the truth, get out of her way and let her experience the results of her choices (all of which sound pretty "tough love") but at the same time you need to realize that about 1% of what she's saying has some clue to what the issue was for her. Clearly before the affair something was up..wrong...missing (you call it what you will). Clearly the proper way to deal with that is to go to your spouse and say "This is NOT okay with me and I need you to hear that I can not live with this." Clearly it is 100% her responsibility for what she chose. But here's the fact: something was amok and it wasn't all her moral character either! If you go to that extreme, all that's doing is blaming her and deflecting. 

So it's a weird balancing act, and I'll be honest with you here. If my Dear Hubby had been completely Domineering Alpha in an attempt to get me to end my affair, I doubt I would have ended it or come back to him. Not because I don't crave that! But because by that time, in real life, I already felt burnt out and hard toward him--kind of like "Well if you don't care enough to make changes for me, why should I care about you and your dominant act. Be alone, I don't care." I'm telling you this with awareness of the fog and what it is and everything--part of what really won me back--ME PERSONALLY--was that he was willing to pack, willing to say "if you choose that I'm not stopping you but you have to do it I'm not", willing to tell the OM "I don't intend to give up without a fight" and also willing to be my friend when I came back, willing to be honest and open, willing to not blame and be bitter, frankly there was some level of what seemed like human kindness involved. 

Now, my guess is that some more strident Alpha types will HRMPH and say I'm a silly female, but here's a fact for you gents: MNG, your WIFE is a silly female. Some part of her WANTS to feel that spark for YOU or she would have just left indifferently. Some part of her wants you to BE HER MAN and like Cary Grant, be all suave and sweep her away. And some part of her knows for a fact this was a huge mistake and hopes that you will give her a way to save some dignity without looking at her forever like a bastard step-child. Okay is that "pride"? Maybe. But she's painted herself into a corner (she can't say she's happy and in love otherwise why did she have an affair--and she can't say she's unhappy otherwise she has to move out and move on...so she's STUCK!)!! 

To begin to rebuild all this, I suggest starting over. Completely OVER. Start by asking if you two could negotiate, which means coming to a Mutual United Understanding: neither one of you will do anything until you both agree, you are united, and you have reached an understanding. Then start by negotiating the three conditions: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407 and in exchange you offer her that you will start off without pressure AS HER FRIEND. That's not to say you're that guy in college who's "in the friend zone" but rather, that you recognize that right now she must really be hurting and lonely, it must feel like she has no one sympathetic to talk to, and you do care about her and how she's feeling. So you propose that she agree to "the three conditions" (you already do), and you agree to listen as if you were her best friend, do just "those fun little things" together, and actually ACT like you see her as the enchanting woman she is under all this MUCK. 

Does that make sense? If you go completely Domineering Alpha you'll be tough as nails but be missing that piece that shows her "I'm tough as nails baby, but only YOU get to see this side of me." And that side is not "give into her" but rather to be man enough to actually care and actually notice when she's hurting....don't let her baby you but do let her be the one to see you have a side that's deeper. Keep thinking of the men women SWOON for: Douglas Fairbanks swooped in and got the girl; Clark Gable was a brute and charmed their knickers off; Cary Grant looked and smelled GOOD and was smart as a whip; Humphrey Bogart was rough looking and brawling, but had a gentle side for the ladies; Sean Connery was dashing, gruff, and endlessly sexy. Those men were just "characters" and that's all Hollywood fantasy--I get that--but it gives a glimpse of what I mean. Be the man! Be who you are intended to be! And show HER that through your strength you can be loving and command her respect.


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## Conrad

That's an awesome post. Just what I expected.

Yet, every single time he talks to her, she attempts to lay out conditions.

What does a guy do with that?


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## MEM2020

HE CANNOT INITIATE A TALK WITH HER ABOUT ANYTHING. And in fact he needs to reject a couple attempts on her part in a row. 

And THEN when she is feeling like he isn't her little puppet - THEN he can sit with her and lay out how he would like it to work. 





Conrad said:


> That's an awesome post. Just what I expected.
> 
> Yet, every single time he talks to her, she attempts to lay out conditions.
> 
> What does a guy do with that?


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## Conrad

I can see that.

Have her "talk to the hand" for a week.

If she starts to ask "why", tell her it's totally unproductive.


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## Neil

The thing is,

She has actively asked him to be the man and manup in the last few pages. He has directly quoted what she has said.

He still won't listen to his wife...

The very few times he has listen to the advice on here he HAS had positive results. The fact that she has been virtually screaming out to him to man up and he won't go the full length, keeps edging her closer to the cliffe edge.

Unless he becomes the man and man's up fully, he can kiss the butt of this marriage.

I know how hard it can be. he is thinking if he does all this "manly" stuff, he thinks he is being too hard and pushing her away, the fact he is constantly and persistently taking the soft approach, is having a far worse effect.

MNG,

Look after number 1

That means, just YOU and your KIDS

Good Luck, you really need it


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## eagleclaw

I got to 110% agree wqith Mem's last two posts. AC, that's a great post and great advice - but until she is at least self aware enough to know she has messed up, and remorseful she doesn't deserve to see his "private" or "softer" side. The dynamic needs to change now to where she is trying to convince him why they should stay. I believe if she really wanted to leave she would have done so already. She's playing him and trying to hold all the cards. That's not the actions of an adult taking responsibility for there actions. That's a school yard bully trying to pick on someone smaller. Except in this case - he has grown and is no longer smaller so he doesn't have to put up with this and she needs to learn this lesson quick.


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## MEM2020

Sorry Conrad. 

My caps were not directed at you. I just hate to see another nice guy finish last. 

She has probably asked him a half dozen times to be strong enough to help her navigate her way back to sanity. There is only room in the marriage for one totally self indulgent person at a time. He needs to stop doing what he "feels" like doing for a while and just do what is right. And that means internalizing a huge amount of fear. 

She is never going to get any more direct than she has been to date. Frankly I give her props for being pretty darn clear with him. Man up or step off. Turns out that manning up in this case means being tough with HER. SHE knows that. But if she has to TELL HIM THAT - it isn't worth anything. It is more puppeteer work for her. And she is tired of being the puppeteer. 




Conrad said:


> I can see that.
> 
> Have her "talk to the hand" for a week.
> 
> If she starts to ask "why", tell her it's totally unproductive.


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## eagleclaw

Realize one thing MNG. When you start doing as mem suggests, she is going to attack you. She is going to say things and do things that make you think you are making a mistake and you are going to be tempted to change your tactics again. That's her goal. She doesn't like that posistion and doesn't want you having any control over the situation. 

But if you continue regardless she will eventually realize she has lost the upper hand, she will get fearful of where your head is at, and she will start thinking, and won't be able to take anything for granted anymore. I.E. - her safety net will be gone. 

At this point you need to let her feel this and stew in it for awhile. It's at this point she may start to try and reach out to you. And it is at this point that you have a chance to get her to come to the table. But not until the tastes some of the consequences of her actions and experierces a little fear and anxiety over the situation. She DOES not need to know that you will be there for her no matter what. Quite the opposite. She needs to know that she have gone to far and it MIGHT be too late.

Quit giving her excuses and hanging on her every word. Make her hang on yours. When she waffles - turn the tables around. Immediatly tell her she's right - she should start looking for a place NOW and you'll go and get boxes for her right away.


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## MEM2020

Ding ding ding. 

Give this man a prize. EC - well said. The only thing I would add is that deep down - she is rooting for him to step up - to stand up for himself. She is rooting for him even more than we are. 




eagleclaw said:


> I got to 110% agree wqith Mem's last two posts. AC, that's a great post and great advice - but until she is at least self aware enough to know she has messed up, and remorseful she doesn't deserve to see his "private" or "softer" side. The dynamic needs to change now to where she is trying to convince him why they should stay. I believe if she really wanted to leave she would have done so already. She's playing him and trying to hold all the cards. That's not the actions of an adult taking responsibility for there actions. That's a school yard bully trying to pick on someone smaller. Except in this case - he has grown and is no longer smaller so he doesn't have to put up with this and she needs to learn this lesson quick.


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## spartan

it's safe to say that all of us men that are here didn't arrive to this site because we were looking for a site to teach us how to rebuild a car engine or anything else. We all came here because we were having issues in our marriages and wanted to know what was needed to fix it. We bounce ideas off each other and report back with what worked and what didn't work.

Go through all the posts MNG just in the Men's Clubhouse and you will see that over 80% of them start with... "My wife doesn't like sex.. or My wife is having an affair... or my wife is distant... my wife doesn't respect me...."

ALL OF THEM ARE NEARLY IDENTICAL!! Take out the posters name and insert your name there and you will see how eerily similar all of our lives really are. 

Then look at the success stories- NOT ONE of them was a success story of a wife having an affair that the husband decided all of a sudden to become a doormat and become MNG that they ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after.

I was the biggest MNG around I thought. I changed myself for myself and everything else fell into place. The best advice that was given to you is the same advice that I took. Be willing to completely let it go in order for it to come back to you. This is painful stuff that you are going through, we know it - hell we have even experienced it just like you are. 

It's time for you to either truly man up and become a real man for your wife or become another statistic. It's a 50-50 shot that this will work, however, these odds are MUCH better than what you have now doing what you are doing.


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## IanIronwood

What they said.

The fact is, if you're gonna "start over", then you might as well start fresh, and she knows it. That is, she's pretty much poisoned the well for reconciliation at this point by her high-handed, controlling behavior and her unwillingness to take responsibility for her actions. Start over? Sure. But make it with a woman who is worthy of you. Your wife has lost her chance at what you had to offer, and all the bitterness and resentment she's manifesting toward you demonstrates what's going to be lurking under the surface for years to come. Truly, you cannot trust her anymore after what she has done, and without any legitimate feelings of remorse on her part that trust isn't going to come back. You can fool yourself into thinking things are OK someday, but they won't be.

So give her what she wants: turn her loose, start the separation papers, get her out of the house and start interviewing for her replacement. 

And that whole "be in the moment" thing? That's womanspeak for "forget about the massive emotional reaming I just gave you and pamper me like I think I deserve!"

The fact is, she doesn't deserve you. And you deserve better. Are you honestly going to ever be able to have the kind of life you want for yourself with her? Really? Tell her to go away and reinvent herself for six months if she wants, but at this point you're better off on your own. She'll continue stringing you out until she has no more use for you, and then she'll leave when the situation is right for her. And she'll tell you all sorts of confusing and contradictory things along the way to keep you up in the air, but as long as she's nice and comfy and you're treating her like a wife and not an ex-wife, she has no incentive to change whatsoever.

Man up more? Certainly. But she's not going to respond well to it, because she's already made up her mind about how she can treat you and what you will accept. She'll see your manning up as bluster and posturing, not real change, and every time you have one of those intense, deep, relationship discussions she's dissolving every bit of good work you do when you're manning up. She has you emotionally invested in her, so she's winning. She has your complete focus and attention, so she's winning. She has your roof over her head and you paying her bills, so she's winning. What have you gained? A little more room in bed to stretch out, and the beginnings of an ulcer. As long as she is under your roof and talking to you, you lose. 

It's not about reconciliation now, because she probably would have folded before now if that was a real possibility. Now it's about stringing you along for as long as possible until SHE decides to end things. Don't give her the satisfaction, and don't give her the comfort zone. And if she gives you any problems about it, tell her "Accountability is a b!tch, ain't it?"


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## MisterNiceGuy

Affaircare said:


> MNG, your WIFE is a silly female. Some part of her WANTS to feel that spark for YOU or she would have just left indifferently. Some part of her wants you to BE HER MAN and like Cary Grant, be all suave and sweep her away. And some part of her knows for a fact this was a huge mistake and hopes that you will give her a way to save some dignity without looking at her forever like a bastard step-child. Okay is that "pride"? Maybe. But she's painted herself into a corner (she can't say she's happy and in love otherwise why did she have an affair--and she can't say she's unhappy otherwise she has to move out and move on...so she's STUCK!)!!


This is my feeling exactly... why is she still here? I think she wants to get to the bottom of her feelings for me. She must still feel something or she'd be really gone.



> To begin to rebuild all this, I suggest starting over. Completely OVER. Start by asking if you two could negotiate, which means coming to a Mutual United Understanding: neither one of you will do anything until you both agree, you are united, and you have reached an understanding. Then start by negotiating the three conditions: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407 and in exchange you offer her that you will start off without pressure AS HER FRIEND. That's not to say you're that guy in college who's "in the friend zone" but rather, that you recognize that right now she must really be hurting and lonely, it must feel like she has no one sympathetic to talk to, and you do care about her and how she's feeling. So you propose that she agree to "the three conditions" (you already do), and you agree to listen as if you were her best friend, do just "those fun little things" together, and actually ACT like you see her as the enchanting woman she is under all this MUCK.


AC, you are prescient! This is exactly the conclusion we came to last night. We are starting from scratch. We are going to be friends (but married). She wants me to Man Up! and lead this family. I simply have to do it somehow, someway. I have my marching orders. 

I re-read the last chapter in NMMNG last night and it's all there. Everything I need to do. The two biggest things for me are excepting the abundance of the universe and the other is letting everything go and not try to control anything. I can't control these things, I can only do my own thing.


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## Conrad

>>I have my marching orders.<<

And she's giving them.

Good luck.


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## eagleclaw

so not hearing us............. I wish you well.


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## IanIronwood

May the Force be with you, dude. But she's already blown up your Death Star. "Starting Over" is just another way for her to get her way without consequences or accountability, control you in whole new ways, and give you jack sh!t in return. She's using you like a rental car, man. I would be shocked -- shocked, I say! -- if the following things don't happen within the next 6 months:

1. "I love you, I'm just not in love with you".
2. "I thought we were starting over? More diamonds! More roses! More attention! Otherwise, you really don't love me."
3. "You know, I'm not going to be able to trust you again until you can admit that it's your fault I had the affair."
4. "Why can't you just be more like OM?"
5. "Let's try a trial separation -- I'll date other people, and you won't. That's the only way I can be "sure" ".
6. "Sex? It's only been six months. I just don't trust you well enough, yet. Let's give it another six months to a year, and then we'll consider it. I mean, after how much you hurt me over that silly affair thing, how could I even think about having sex with you after you abused my trust?"

You've got a couple of weeks of "maybe this will work out", followed by a month or so of "we're right back where we were", and then you'll be in downtown "this is a trainwreck". 

Ask her this: Is there even a possibility that I'm going to get what will make me happy out of this relationship?

Then ask yourself.


----------



## MEM2020

Did she profusely apologize for coming home from the weekend away and without warning or reason telling you it was over? 

BTW - you seem like the perfect model for the "beaten spouse". Granted these beatings are emotional. Oh - and in most cases - even though they don't really mean it - the "beater" apologizes to their victim the day after. 

Pretty nice if she even gets to skip the insincere apology. Kind of reinforces the whole theme here. And now you get rewarded with celibacy and spending money on dates trying to prove you are worthy. 

Eventually this should be a "case study". 

MNG - you don't get it. When she gets to keep saying "I want a divorce" without any consequence the ONLY conclusion she can draw is that you will accept marriage on ANY terms. You won't get to select the "movie" you watch much less "lead the family" under that type circumstance. 

I truly hope your kids have no idea what is going on. 



MisterNiceGuy said:


> This is my feeling exactly... why is she still here? I think she wants to get to the bottom of her feelings for me. She must still feel something or she'd be really gone.
> 
> 
> 
> AC, you are prescient! This is exactly the conclusion we came to last night. We are starting from scratch. We are going to be friends (but married). She wants me to Man Up! and lead this family. I simply have to do it somehow, someway. I have my marching orders.
> 
> I re-read the last chapter in NMMNG last night and it's all there. Everything I need to do. The two biggest things for me are excepting the abundance of the universe and the other is letting everything go and not try to control anything. I can't control these things, I can only do my own thing.


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## WhereAmI

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She wants me to Man Up! and lead this family. I simply have to do it somehow, someway.


Next time she tells you to man up let her know you're a man with or without her. Stop taking marching orders and SHOW her that you're in control. Every time you follow her orders ("Yes dear, I'll man up!") she's chipping at the bit of alpha you already have.


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## eagleclaw

And you certainly will have no sex life as she will have zero respect for you, and with no respect no attraction. Unfortunately she WILL have a sex life while your paying the bills and babysitting for her.


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## Conrad

Here's how it looks to me:

1) She was planning her departure as the "soul mate" of the OM. She wasn't going to tell you about it because she was looking for a little more time to get all the ducks lined up (advancing to the PA, using the power of the sex to convince him to leave his wife, etc.)

(It's key to remember her immortal line that she was "95%" ready to have sex with you during this period)

2) This was her plan and the reason she didn't tell you was because she wanted you to finance the entire venture - as she works in your business and you would be duped into bankrolling her romps with the OM while she pretended to still be your wife

(It's also key to remember you have a report of her groping the OM as early as late 2009 - so this wasn't being caught up in some sort of momentary lapse of judgement)

3) What you're proposing now IS THAT SHE CAN NOW DO THESE EXACT SAME THINGS RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE, while you keep your nose to the grindstone on love languages, and all that other chick flick B.S.

Occasionally, she'll issue you a "report card" about how you're not measuring up and you will "dig deep" and try harder to hit those marching orders.

Am I missing something?

There's no need for her to fly airplanes into your skyscrapers when you'll simply hand her the keys - and give her the first six months RENT FREE.


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## MEM2020

ROTFL....

Having trouble catching my breath. 




Conrad said:


> Here's how it looks to me:
> 
> 1) She was planning her departure as the "soul mate" of the OM. She wasn't going to tell you about it because she was looking for a little more time to get all the ducks lined up (advancing to the PA, using the power of the sex to convince him to leave his wife, etc.)
> 
> (It's key to remember her immortal line that she was "95%" ready to have sex with you during this period)
> 
> 2) This was her plan and the reason she didn't tell you was because she wanted you to finance the entire venture - as she works in your business and you would be duped into bankrolling her romps with the OM while she pretended to still be your wife
> 
> (It's also key to remember you have a report of her groping the OM as early as late 2009 - so this wasn't being caught up in some sort of momentary lapse of judgement)
> 
> 3) What you're proposing now IS THAT SHE CAN NOW DO THESE EXACT SAME THINGS RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE, while you keep your nose to the grindstone on love languages, and all that other chick flick B.S.
> 
> Occasionally, she'll issue you a "report card" about how you're not measuring up and you will "dig deep" and try harder to hit those marching orders.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> There's no need for her to fly airplanes into your skyscrapers when you'll simply hand her the keys - and give her the first six months RENT FREE.


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## eagleclaw

LOL - that sums it up pretty well.

I MNG I hope you don't think we are all being mean and ganging up on you - but more the opposite. We wouldn't invest this much time and effort if it were not for the fact that we want to help you. 

However, since you seem to be missing the message repeatedly - it appears that our best chance at getting through to you is to be as blunt, and direct as we can because you seem to be caught in your own fog...................and missing the point.


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## MisterNiceGuy

WhereAmI said:


> Next time she tells you to man up let her know you're a man with or without her. Stop taking marching orders and SHOW her that you're in control. Every time you follow her orders ("Yes dear, I'll man up!") she's chipping at the bit of alpha you already have.


Ha! You guys took this the wrong way! I meant I have my own internal marching orders. She is not dictating to me how to lead my life anymore... I am simply doing it for myself. Not for her! I need to Man Up regardless of what she says even though she right in this instance.


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## MsLonely

My husband made me understand he loves me more than anything in the world and he will be my best husband in the whole world. He dates me once a week. He gives me lots of loving attention now. So pls tell me why I would need any OM's attention? The OM has become piece of junk. So tell me how could I not to fall back in love my with my husband? My husband is my love and my life. I'm grateful my husband used his unconditional love to guide me out of the fog (3 year EA) Marriage has to go through many tests so you know if the love you have for each other is true. If you fail because you want to back off and move on, the next one is the same because you will never pass the tests with your forever chicken out attitude. The chemistry between lovers has to be found back and the fire of love has to be ignited between husband & wife.
Only falling back in love can re- connect the long lost romance & passion.
When your spouse is wayward losing herself somewhere without knowing where to go. She's in a fog, you are the only one to light up her way sailing back to your harbour. 
You need a strong belief that she's always your true love that you will never regret or change your mind. She needs to know you can't live without, because when you said you love her, you meant it and you will forever, which is exactly the light and belief she must see so that you will guide her, sailing back to you.
If you're able to show her you're still her true love, and you will always be, all her insecurities will be gone, and I assure you that she will fall back in love with you. She will find lots of chemistry with you!
By that time, nothing will ever go between you and her. Your marriage will be beautiful and strong.
Think about it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spartan

*was going to post something meaningful....

anyone else feel as though we just saw MNG set sail in a rowboat in 40 foot seas?


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## MsLonely

Listen to your heart.
When you feel peace and love, that's the right direction and right thing to do.
When you feel confused and insecure, you're heading the wrong direction of resolving your marriage issues.
Your wife hasn't really betrayed you. You can trust her.
She just needs to feel loved, desired and connected with her husband. She's so lonely but you don't understand and you're not there for her!
Husband up!
She's your wife. Why keep yourself to yourself? She needs to know you can give her the whole world and she can rely her whole life on you. You're her husband, you are supposed to be the closest and dearest better half.


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## MsLonely

I really don't think your wife is playing games with you.
She's so lost and so unsure about her future with you.
If she doesn't love you, she should have PA for a long time already and she won't feel hesitated.
Why do you need an answer? Of course she loves you! Otherwise why she would stop her EA because of you?
Women are insecure creatures. She needs to hear you first and see you show her first, then she will give her all to you!
What answer do you exactly need from her? She's just whining for more loving attention from you.


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## Grayson

MsLonely said:


> Your wife hasn't really betrayed you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I call BS!

His wife, rather than addressing problems she experienced in the marriage, sought solace and emotional support with someone who wasn't her husband (and, in fact, was someone else's husband). This was done in secret...hidden, lied about. It was done with every intention of proceeding from an emotional affair to a physical one. She broke his trust in her and the in the strength of their marriage.

In what world is that NOT a betrayal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

I will believe you have 1/4 of ONE testicle if you decline to "date" her until:
- She stops waffling and abusing you with threats of divorce
- She gets a JOB
- She comes to your bed

At some point you are either dictating terms or you are just a whiny little beetch who she is desperately hoping to replace. 

In the mean time - playful banter is ok since you "chose" to give up so much ground last night. So be playful - maybe even wrestle a bit - and see what happens. 

If you "DATE" her at this point - you are basically rewarding ALL of her crazy/abusive behavior for the last month. Until you inflict some consequence on her for constantly threatening you with divorce, telling you she never loved you, having an affair, telling you that you suk as a husband - it will continue. 

The case study continues.....




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Ha! You guys took this the wrong way! I meant I have my own internal marching orders. She is not dictating to me how to lead my life anymore... I am simply doing it for myself. Not for her! I need to Man Up regardless of what she says even though she right in this instance.


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## AFEH

MNG you don’t know it, though it’s obvious for others to see, your emotions are under the direct control of your wife. It’s like you are a radio controlled car and your wife has the remote control in her hands. She pushes the forward button, you zoom forward. She pushes the reverse button, you go backwards.

She wants you to feel good, she pushes the “MNG feels good” button. She wants you to feel bad, she pushes the “MNG feels bad button”. She’s an expert at it MNG and you don’t know it.

You need to take the remote out of her hands and you do that with boundaries.

Bob


----------



## MEM2020

Thank you Bob. BTW - She is addicted to the power of the remote - but unable to put it down. Either MNG takes the batteries out - or she runs the marriage off a cliff. 




AFEH said:


> MNG you don’t know it, though it’s obvious for others to see, your emotions are under the direct control of your wife. It’s like you are a radio controlled car and your wife has the remote control in her hands. She pushes the forward button, you zoom forward. She pushes the reverse button, you go backwards.
> 
> She wants you to feel good, she pushes the “MNG feels good” button. She wants you to feel bad, she pushes the “MNG feels bad button”. She’s an expert at it MNG and you don’t know it.
> 
> You need to take the remote out of her hands and you do that with boundaries.
> 
> Bob


----------



## Grayson

nice777guy said:


> Hasn't she broken off contact at this point?


Last I saw MNG mention it, he had evidence of her contacting him roughly two weeks (or less) ago, despite exposure to the OM's wife being before that.

Unless, that is, I misunderstood his posts. The point remains that she continued contact with him after the EA was discovered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Amplexor

This thread has been moderated due to a running gun battle between multiple posters. Any and all comments in that situation were deleted. Any members that were out of line were notified via PM. If you didn't receive a PM don't sweat it but please keep the posts focused on the OP's situation. Thanks all.


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## nice777guy

AC said “…be man enough to actually care and actually notice when she's hurting....Be who you are intended to be! And show HER that through your strength you can be loving and command her respect.”

“BE WHO YOU ARE INTENDED TO BE.” Awesome. Love it!

Manning up is about standing up strong for what you believe in. Whether that’s that your wife should be faithful, or that your marriage is still worth working on in spite of its flaws.

Seems like this thread is full of a lot of conflicting advice. Throw her out, pack her bags, let her leave but don’t help her, fight for her, stay, go, etc., 

Some think your wife is crazy – some think she’s vulnerable and hurting. Some are now telling you that YOU yourself are hopeless (maybe just to get your attention?) – same people who were previously praising you and suggesting your thread be made a “sticky” and used as an example for others to follow. 

Re-read AffairCare’s advice. Your wife isn’t evil, YOU aren’t hopeless, and the affair didn’t happen in a vacuum. The marriage was vulnerable before the affair started.

No one would blame you if you walked away. Many would praise you if you stayed and worked on it.

I just don’t think that YOU know what YOU want to do. If you aren’t sure, then don’t do anything right now. Just focus on yourself, your kids and your work. Don’t pack her bags – don’t date her – don’t “lawyer up” – just continue doing what YOU need to do until you feel sure about what you truly want.


----------



## eagleclaw

Looks like some posts got deleted?


----------



## MEM2020

I agree with some of what NG said.

1. You cannot throw her out of the house. You have no legal basis for doing so. Full stop. Trying to throw her out of the house is hostile (which is REALLY bad) and if she fights it, you look foolish which is REALLY bad. If she restarts her affair you should file for divorce and at that point you can sort out the housing situation. If she is not engaging in the EA, you shouldn't even be talking about separating. 

2. You already tried to "comfort" her the night she cried in front of you. Go re-read what happened during the week after that. In summary you got a very bad result. This whole situation is all about getting the best result. She needs to cry for a while without comfort and decide whether or not she wants to be in the marriage. Let her do that. 

3. I agree your W is not a "bad" person. She is confused and scared and angry. ALL of those things are valid. The issue is that she wants to put ALL of this on you. The problem that you supposedly created single handedly and the solution. As you have discovered YOU cannot solve her problems and in fact your attempts to do so have HURT the marriage. 

4. If you continue to let her tell you: Chase me, give me space, I am leaving you, I am sorry, chase me, give me space, I am leaving you, (now not even bothering with I am sorry), etc. YOU will lose respect for yourself just as fast as she does. 

Create your business plan for the year assuming she is out of the picture. Encourage her to get a job as that will be good for her. Let her review the business plan if she wants since she will be impacted by the results no matter what happens to the marriage. And then review it with your investor. Your KIDS are depending on you to provide. When you review the biz plan with your W - treat her like a trusted advisor NOT your W. Ultimately as the CEO you should be asking for her input, and taking it seriously. But it isn't a democracy - so the plan needs to end up the way you believe it should before you take it to your investor. Don't show her your first draft. Or your second. What you show her should be called a "draft" but should be the highest quality product you can create. One page. Good leadership is impressive. Thank her for her input as if she was a valued employee. That means leaving the ILY stuff out. 

5. Move out of the bedroom. Let her know that when she is ready to be your "WIFE" in the biblical sense you can discuss moving back in. DISCUSS. Not - you pull the string and I jump. 

No "dates". If however she wants to play a board game with you and the kids - great. If there is a sport YOU are very good at and SHE wants to spend time together - do the sport. But no dinners/movies/money spending. Do NOT chase someone who does NOT want to be caught. She will just flee further and faster. 




nice777guy said:


> AC said “…be man enough to actually care and actually notice when she's hurting....Be who you are intended to be! And show HER that through your strength you can be loving and command her respect.”
> 
> “BE WHO YOU ARE INTENDED TO BE.” Awesome. Love it!
> 
> Manning up is about standing up strong for what you believe in. Whether that’s that your wife should be faithful, or that your marriage is still worth working on in spite of its flaws.
> 
> Seems like this thread is full of a lot of conflicting advice. Throw her out, pack her bags, let her leave but don’t help her, fight for her, stay, go, etc.,
> 
> Some think your wife is crazy – some think she’s vulnerable and hurting. Some are now telling you that YOU yourself are hopeless (maybe just to get your attention?) – same people who were previously praising you and suggesting your thread be made a “sticky” and used as an example for others to follow.
> 
> Re-read AffairCare’s advice. Your wife isn’t evil, YOU aren’t hopeless, and the affair didn’t happen in a vacuum. The marriage was vulnerable before the affair started.
> 
> No one would blame you if you walked away. Many would praise you if you stayed and worked on it.
> 
> I just don’t think that YOU know what YOU want to do. If you aren’t sure, then don’t do anything right now. Just focus on yourself, your kids and your work. Don’t pack her bags – don’t date her – don’t “lawyer up” – just continue doing what YOU need to do until you feel sure about what you truly want.


----------



## nice777guy

MEM11363 said:


> I agree with some of what NG said.
> 
> 1. You cannot throw her out of the house. You have no legal basis for doing so. Full stop. Trying to throw her out of the house is hostile (which is REALLY bad) and if she fights it, you look foolish which is REALLY bad. If she restarts her affair you should file for divorce and at that point you can sort out the housing situation. If she is not engaging in the EA, you shouldn't even be talking about separating.
> 
> 2. You already tried to "comfort" her the night she cried in front of you. Go re-read what happened during the week after that. In summary you got a very bad result. This whole situation is all about getting the best result. She needs to cry for a while without comfort and decide whether or not she wants to be in the marriage. Let her do that.
> 
> 3. I agree your W is not a "bad" person. She is confused and scared and angry. ALL of those things are valid. The issue is that she wants to put ALL of this on you. The problem that you supposedly created single handedly and the solution. As you have discovered YOU cannot solve her problems and in fact your attempts to do so have HURT the marriage.
> 
> 4. If you continue to let her tell you: Chase me, give me space, I am leaving you, I am sorry, chase me, give me space, I am leaving you, (now not even bothering with I am sorry), etc. YOU will lose respect for yourself just as fast as she does.
> 
> Create your business plan for the year assuming she is out of the picture. Encourage her to get a job as that will be good for her. Let her review the business plan if she wants since she will be impacted by the results no matter what happens to the marriage. And then review it with your investor. Your KIDS are depending on you to provide. When you review the biz plan with your W - treat her like a trusted advisor NOT your W. Ultimately as the CEO you should be asking for her input, and taking it seriously. But it isn't a democracy - so the plan needs to end up the way you believe it should before you take it to your investor. Don't show her your first draft. Or your second. What you show her should be called a "draft" but should be the highest quality product you can create. One page. Good leadership is impressive. Thank her for her input as if she was a valued employee. That means leaving the ILY stuff out.
> 
> 5. Move out of the bedroom. Let her know that when she is ready to be your "WIFE" in the biblical sense you can discuss moving back in. DISCUSS. Not - you pull the string and I jump.
> 
> No "dates". If however she wants to play a board game with you and the kids - great. If there is a sport YOU are very good at and SHE wants to spend time together - do the sport. But no dinners/movies/money spending. Do NOT chase someone who does NOT want to be caught. She will just flee further and faster.


I agree with everything that MEM said...

Thinking about the crying / comforting in the context of AC's advice.

If she talks, do you just listen with little if any reaction? Or do you just avoid the talks altogether for some time?

I guess - in my head - I'm thinking that if the EA is done AND you are SURE you want her back, you listen but don't comfort.


----------



## MEM2020

It is ok to listen. But if MNG is going to listen - he needs to disconnect his heart and turn his brain to high. If it is about how she feels - ok. If it is about fault and she STARTS with her faults and then moves to his and it is balanced - that is ok. 

But if it is all about his fault - BAD IDEA to sit there and listen. Silence implies assent and that is toxic if she is blameshifting. 

Better to simply say two powerful words and then leave. Those words are "I disagree". But do not - no matter what - debate the point. Just disagree and leave. Very powerful message. 




nice777guy said:


> I agree with everything that MEM said...
> 
> Thinking about the crying / comforting in the context of AC's advice.
> 
> If she talks, do you just listen with little if any reaction? Or do you just avoid the talks altogether for some time?
> 
> I guess - in my head - I'm thinking that if the EA is done AND you are SURE you want her back, you listen but don't comfort.


----------



## Blue Moon

MEM11363 said:


> It is ok to listen. But if MNG is going to listen - he needs to disconnect his heart and turn his brain to high. If it is about how she feels - ok. If it is about fault and she STARTS with her faults and then moves to his and it is balanced - that is ok.
> 
> But if it is all about his fault - BAD IDEA to sit there and listen. Silence implies assent and that is toxic if she is blameshifting.
> 
> Better to simply say two powerful words and then leave. Those words are "I disagree". But do not - no matter what - debate the point. Just disagree and leave. Very powerful message.


Powerful stuff


----------



## Affaircare

> 1. You cannot throw her out of the house. You have no legal basis for doing so. Full stop. ...If she restarts her affair you should file for divorce and at that point you can sort out the housing situation. If she is not engaging in the EA, you shouldn't even be talking about separating.


This is exactly right--no talking about separating or divorcing. When she brings up these topics and you perceive she is using that threat as a weapon to "make you do" something or do what she wants, here is what my Dear Hubby says: _"If that is what you want, I can not stop you. But I will not talk divorce, I will not talk separation, if you walk out the door I will close it forever and you'll never come back, and I will not live with you holding that over my head. If you mean it, stop saying it and go. If you don't intend to follow through, then change your tactics and indicate that you're in this to FIX it."_ Ya just gotta love the man, don't ya! :smthumbup:



> 2. You already tried to "comfort" her the night she cried in front of you. Go re-read what happened during the week after that. ...She needs to cry for a while without comfort and decide whether or not she wants to be in the marriage. Let her do that.


and


> It is ok to listen. But if MNG is going to listen - he needs to disconnect his heart and turn his brain to high. If it is about how she feels - ok. If it is about fault and she STARTS with her faults and then moves to his and it is balanced - that is ok. But if it is all about his fault - BAD IDEA to sit there and listen. Silence implies assent and that is toxic if she is blameshifting.


Again I agree with this, because if you remember I said there was a pretty fine line to walk here. It is one thing if she comes to you, says she is really feeling sad and when you ask why, she says, "Because of what I did and I am so embarrassed and disappointed with me that I feel stupid!" and then it would be appropriate to comfort! It's another thing altogether if she's crying, you ask why, and she launches into a tirade blaming her issues on you! 

See the prerequisites of what I was suggesting (aka "comforting") were two things: 1) she agreed in concept to providing the three conditions and 2) she had some point of a term I call "repentance" which sounds all biblical and stuff, but in real life it's just a term that I use to mean "turning around." Now let's be blunt. If she was deep in the fog (and most were or are), she will not become utterly repentant and fully acknowledge all the pain and damage she's done. It will come on her gradually as she sees it. BUT there usually is a point at which you see that turn around--a point when she breaks and you can tell by words AND actions that she GETS IT and is not turning back. For me, I was packed and out the door...heading elsewhere when it hit me: I couldn't really DO this. At that moment parts of me wanted to and sort of wished I could, but I just COULD NOT actually go through with breaking up a marriage, a family and all of our history, not to mention what it would do to our kids and the aunts and uncles and cousins (we're very close with the extended family). So that was the moment for me. The more I came out of the fog, the more I realized I had already hurt people and felt like an idiot, but that's okay. 

Soooo...does that make sense? If she's showing some genuine repentance, she's agreeing to the three conditions, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407 and she's emotionally struggling with feeling lonely or sad or embarrassed--comfort away. OTOH if she's still acting like "I needed to do this for me", she's blaming you, she's refusing to be transparent or commit to giving you 100% of her affection and loyalty....I'd say that comfort = doormat. The appropriate response then would be: "I'm sorry that your choice to refuse to honor your promise to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty leaves you feeling lonely. When you're ready to honor that promise, let me know!" and then go to your room and read. 



> 3. I agree your W is not a "bad" person. She is confused and scared and angry. ALL of those things are valid. The issue is that she wants to put ALL of this on you. The problem that you supposedly created single handedly and the solution. As you have discovered YOU cannot solve her problems and in fact your attempts to do so have HURT the marriage.


:iagree::iagree: See, if I address you like you are so "un-able" that I have to solve your problems, what does that say about my respect for you? Doesn't it pretty much say: "You don't have what it takes to be a man and an adult"? Well here's the thing, MNG..I DO expect you to be a man who stands as a hero for his family, and an adult! If you don't listen to some of the suggestions here, I care man but we aren't the ones who have to live with the consequences...you do! I hope you'll be strong enough to stop knee-jerk reacting to your own emotions, and start acting out of PURPOSE because you have made the deliberate decision to ACT that way. 

So when she pulls the tears, don't respond to those. I'll bet you money YOU yourself have an emotional response to them! But when you are emotional, your MIND shuts off (trust me, I'm a Feeler kind of person and I know) and you are not able to make logical, well-reasoned, purposeful decisions! Thus, I suggest that you decide beforehand, "When I have an emotional response to something she does (sad, angry, lonely, etc.) I will tell her "I can see you're feeling ___ but until I can think clearly, I'm not going to make a decision or an agreement" and then give yourself time to THINK. And when your brain clicks back on, before you agree to something, think to yourself "Does this advance my plan of being the authority, protecting my kids and my family, being the new me who protects my own boundaries?" 

Make sense? 

Soooo...she has the right to feel confused and scared and angry--maybe even hurt about the way she was treated in the past! Cool. That would sound like this: "When you played that song just now, it reminded me of the old days when I felt so hurt. Right now I am still so RAW and confused. At times I think I'm going to lose my mind! So I'm going to ask if you could give me a hug and help me settle myself down." See how she addresses WHAT occurred that "started it", keeps on what SHE feels and thinks, doesn't blame you, and then respectfully makes a request that you could do to help? That would be :smthumbup: and if you wanted to do so...go for it.

But what is not cool is when she puts HER baggage on you and blames you for her actions and choices. NOT COOL  That would sound like this: "When you play that song just now, it reminded me of all the days you left me sitting her alone even though I begged you to come home and you ignored me! No wonder I had to turn to someone else, you didn't care about me! I think you're just trying to trap me and force me to do it your way and I deserve to be happy! Turn that sh*t off and play something decent! (crying)" See how she says what "started it" but then detours into blaming you (hey nothing personal but maybe you did leave her home for hours...because when you finally DID come home she griped at you for hours!), using that as justification for her infidelity, telling you what you think and feel, making a disrespectful judgment about your motives, and then being demanding and using strong language? But she covers all that bad behavior "with tears"? In that kind of scenario I think MEM's response is perfect: 


> Better to simply say two powerful words and then leave. Those words are "I disagree". But do not - no matter what - debate the point. Just disagree and leave. Very powerful message.





> 4. If you continue to let her tell you: Chase me, give me space, I am leaving you, I am sorry, chase me, give me space, I am leaving you, (now not even bothering with I am sorry), etc. YOU will lose respect for yourself just as fast as she does.


Okay this is relatively easy actually. Right now she looks at and thinks of you, and she associates "bad" with you and "good" with the OM. She has bad memories, feels bad around you, thinks badly of you.... And the idea I had about being her friend was not to take her out on dates or like I said, be the guy in the friend zone. YOU are her HUSBAND! YOU have certain rights to expectations, because SHE made a covenant with YOU to forsake all others and give 100% of her affection and loyalty to YOU! Thus, it's not a matter of "chase her"--you two would spin your tires for years doing that! Nope, you need to #1 man up and #2 remove the MNG=Bad with MNG=Good. Give her some memories where she'd say "Oh huh...that was actually fun!" 

As an example, shortly after our reunion, Dear Hubby and I renewed our interest in going to local muscle car shows. I have always loved them and so has he, so we went and it wasn't a "date" per se but something we both enjoy doing (shoot, I would have fun all by myself) and something where I could say "Wow, I actually enjoyed that time." He didn't bring up affairs or ask deep questions...we just enjoyed being together and added some Hubby=Good associations. However, it's just as vital (probably MORESO!!) to also avoid every MNG=Bad that is within your control. Let me say that again: 

Avoid every MNG=Bad that is within YOUR control. Her choices are not in your control. Consequences of her choices are not in your control. Her baggage/issues are not in your control. Her feelings are not in your control. GET IT???



> Create your business plan for the year assuming she is out of the picture. Encourage her to get a job as that will be good for her. Let her review the business plan if she wants since she will be impacted by the results no matter what happens to the marriage. And then review it with your investor. Your KIDS are depending on you to provide. When you review the biz plan with your W - treat her like a trusted advisor NOT your W. Ultimately as the CEO you should be asking for her input, and taking it seriously. But it isn't a democracy - so the plan needs to end up the way you believe it should before you take it to your investor. Don't show her your first draft. Or your second. What you show her should be called a "draft" but should be the highest quality product you can create. One page. Good leadership is impressive. Thank her for her input as if she was a valued employee. That means leaving the ILY stuff out.


THIS is BRILLIANT and I will even go one step further. Make a "business plan" for yourself for the year. Include what you plan to do FOR YOU, what/how you intend to handle finances, and precisely how you will arrange your life so you will be completely fine without her. Then, if she joins you, you'll be "ahead" and if she flips out and leaves, you will be tighter but still be fine. Allow her to see how she might fit into the plan. Write a mission statement. Get the idea? Then when you feel emotional and you have to wait for your head to kick back in...once it kicks in you can be CLEAR: "How will with work FOR or AGAINST my mission plan?" 



> 5. Move out of the bedroom. Let her know that when she is ready to be your "WIFE" in the biblical sense you can discuss moving back in. DISCUSS. Not - you pull the string and I jump.


Yep I agree :iagree: here too. Part of the issue is that if you're all together in the bedroom and still not having sex, she'll forever use that as a weapon to "get her way" just like "I'm divorcing you." The responsibilities of marriage just are NOT all you!! She has to also submit (yes...that word!) to acknowledging that she also has some responsibilities because she made the vow, and one of those joyful jobs is a MUTUALLY SATISFYING SEX LIFE!! Thus I think I'd say what Dear Hubby said again: "I want to be in our marriage bed together but I'm not willing to return to a bed where there is not a mutually satisfying sex life. If you want no sex, I can not stop you. But I will not sleep next to someone night after night who rejects me, and I will not have sex used as a weapon against me. If you won't commit to our marriage and have a satisfying love life, stop talking about coming back to bed. If you intend to follow through, then change your tactics and indicate that you're in this to FIX it."


----------



## eagleclaw

I agree with all of this but I"m confused about one point. She's not in the bedroom, he is there alone.... so is he supposed to leave the bedroom that only he occupies? Or are you guys simply suggesting he doesn't let her back at this point to the bedroom, and if she comes then he leaves............. that may be viewed as an immediate vindictive attack if she relents and returns to the bedroom and he immediatly vacates it! She'll be gunshy at that point to "submit" any further.

Me thinks I have missed something.


----------



## Affaircare

Oh no worries eagleclaw, maybe I'm wrong (that sure could be)!! :lol: I thought they were talking about sharing the bed together again but "no sex". This is my own personal opinion but I think sex would actually bring them both together quite a bit and definitely relieve a lot of tension!  

Okay how about revising to say that agreeing to sleep in the same bed before they BOTH accept that sex is part of being a married person...AND that frankly part of being a married person is meeting the sexual need OF YOUR PARTNER (not just thinking of yourself) is a mistake waiting to happen. That's when sex starts getting used as a weapon of control rather than a satisfying and uniting experience.


----------



## OOE

MNG,

Please read my story:

My exW was EXTREMELY controlling pretty much from the time we met. I knew it going in, but thought I could "fix" her.

At the beginning of our marriage, the power in our relationship was pretty balanced, but over time she whittled away at that balance. In tiny steps, I'd give in "to keep the peace," until after several years she was the one in charge - completely. She's super intelligent, and even though much of this was subconcious on her part, I always felt like I was a step behind in the battles.

Right at seven years I discovered that she was having an EA with a man in another state and was planning on meeting him (found evidence on her computer after suspicions). I confronted her. Her words, tone, demeanor, and even comments about our marriage were almost word-for-word what your W used. Really the only exception was that she repeatedly said that she just wanted someone to "take care of her" rather than the "lead her" that your W has said. She also repeatedly talked about how I'd changed - I was no longer the man she married.

The only thing I did semi-right back then was that when she first said the word divorce, I was non-emotional and told her that if this guy meant more to her than her family she should pack her bags and move to Utah, and that I'd help her... "tonight."

She backed down, cried (one of her main controlling mechanisms) and suggested we go to MC.

The MC had "us" (really me, since she changed nothing) work on communication and showing each other how we felt by acts of love. It "worked." She stayed.

In a very very short time, things were exactly where they were before the EA. Unfortunately, physical abuse started next. She'd start on one of the kids, and I'd intercede. Then she'd turn on me. I'm bigger than her, and she never really hurt me, but abuse is abuse. Eventually she bypassed the kids and started on me first. It's just another potential step they can take when you're a doormat. I knew her childhood, and I felt sorry for her mother for making her "like that," so I took it. I never realized how it was all a downward spiral.

Six years after the EA my spider sense told me "it" was happening again. Again I snooped her computer and discovered not just one PA, but three ongoing PA's. Today I realize that she'd probably had ongoing PA's for a long time but only started having trouble hiding them when she was juggling more than one.

I also discovered that she had been using substantial amounts of escrow money from her business to support her PA's.

I moved out that afternoon. Her criminal activities put our house at risk, and I had to have a safe home for our kids - away from her criminal behavior and physical abuse.

Today, using my awesome powers of 20/20 hindsight, I see that what she really needed from the first day of our marriage was a man whose backbone could stand up to her without budging. I was not being that man. While it's good to strive for a balance of power, unless you're extremely fortunate, there will always be some imbalance. Most (all?) women need their H to be the one on the alpha side of this equation.

A narcissistic, controlling ^&*%# needs a *very* strong man - not a MNG. She told me over and over that she needed someone to take care of her (strong H) and that I'd changed (didn't matter that she forced me to change).

That's exactly what your W is telling you she needs.

Be that man. 

Or let her go.



-OOE





P.S. My friends and family said that my demeanor changed almost immediately after moving out. I'd looked like a beat-down dog. 

A few months after the divorce, we had to talk with our oldest son's Principal following an incident at school (not related to family issues). I handled the whole meeting, and even led the Principal. I was the alpha in the room. Afterwards she asked, "why couldn't you have been like that in our marriage?" Great question.

P.P.S. MEM's advice is exactly right. If I were in your shoes again, I'd use his suggestions verbatim.


----------



## MEM2020

AC,
Great post. 

The part directly below stood out to me as pitch perfect. I have my own version of this - but frankly it is not as good. 

>>>>>>>.
This is exactly right--no talking about separating or divorcing. When she brings up these topics and you perceive she is using that threat as a weapon to "make you do" something or do what she wants, here is what my Dear Hubby says: "If that is what you want, I can not stop you. But I will not talk divorce, I will not talk separation, if you walk out the door I will close it forever and you'll never come back, and I will not live with you holding that over my head. If you mean it, stop saying it and go. If you don't intend to follow through, then change your tactics and indicate that you're in this to FIX it." Ya just gotta love the man, don't ya! 





Affaircare said:


> This is exactly right--no talking about separating or divorcing. When she brings up these topics and you perceive she is using that threat as a weapon to "make you do" something or do what she wants, here is what my Dear Hubby says: _"If that is what you want, I can not stop you. But I will not talk divorce, I will not talk separation, if you walk out the door I will close it forever and you'll never come back, and I will not live with you holding that over my head. If you mean it, stop saying it and go. If you don't intend to follow through, then change your tactics and indicate that you're in this to FIX it."_ Ya just gotta love the man, don't ya! :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> and
> 
> Again I agree with this, because if you remember I said there was a pretty fine line to walk here. It is one thing if she comes to you, says she is really feeling sad and when you ask why, she says, "Because of what I did and I am so embarrassed and disappointed with me that I feel stupid!" and then it would be appropriate to comfort! It's another thing altogether if she's crying, you ask why, and she launches into a tirade blaming her issues on you!
> 
> See the prerequisites of what I was suggesting (aka "comforting") were two things: 1) she agreed in concept to providing the three conditions and 2) she had some point of a term I call "repentance" which sounds all biblical and stuff, but in real life it's just a term that I use to mean "turning around." Now let's be blunt. If she was deep in the fog (and most were or are), she will not become utterly repentant and fully acknowledge all the pain and damage she's done. It will come on her gradually as she sees it. BUT there usually is a point at which you see that turn around--a point when she breaks and you can tell by words AND actions that she GETS IT and is not turning back. For me, I was packed and out the door...heading elsewhere when it hit me: I couldn't really DO this. At that moment parts of me wanted to and sort of wished I could, but I just COULD NOT actually go through with breaking up a marriage, a family and all of our history, not to mention what it would do to our kids and the aunts and uncles and cousins (we're very close with the extended family). So that was the moment for me. The more I came out of the fog, the more I realized I had already hurt people and felt like an idiot, but that's okay.
> 
> Soooo...does that make sense? If she's showing some genuine repentance, she's agreeing to the three conditions, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407 and she's emotionally struggling with feeling lonely or sad or embarrassed--comfort away. OTOH if she's still acting like "I needed to do this for me", she's blaming you, she's refusing to be transparent or commit to giving you 100% of her affection and loyalty....I'd say that comfort = doormat. The appropriate response then would be: "I'm sorry that your choice to refuse to honor your promise to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty leaves you feeling lonely. When you're ready to honor that promise, let me know!" and then go to your room and read.
> 
> 
> :iagree::iagree: See, if I address you like you are so "un-able" that I have to solve your problems, what does that say about my respect for you? Doesn't it pretty much say: "You don't have what it takes to be a man and an adult"? Well here's the thing, MNG..I DO expect you to be a man who stands as a hero for his family, and an adult! If you don't listen to some of the suggestions here, I care man but we aren't the ones who have to live with the consequences...you do! I hope you'll be strong enough to stop knee-jerk reacting to your own emotions, and start acting out of PURPOSE because you have made the deliberate decision to ACT that way.
> 
> So when she pulls the tears, don't respond to those. I'll bet you money YOU yourself have an emotional response to them! But when you are emotional, your MIND shuts off (trust me, I'm a Feeler kind of person and I know) and you are not able to make logical, well-reasoned, purposeful decisions! Thus, I suggest that you decide beforehand, "When I have an emotional response to something she does (sad, angry, lonely, etc.) I will tell her "I can see you're feeling ___ but until I can think clearly, I'm not going to make a decision or an agreement" and then give yourself time to THINK. And when your brain clicks back on, before you agree to something, think to yourself "Does this advance my plan of being the authority, protecting my kids and my family, being the new me who protects my own boundaries?"
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> Soooo...she has the right to feel confused and scared and angry--maybe even hurt about the way she was treated in the past! Cool. That would sound like this: "When you played that song just now, it reminded me of the old days when I felt so hurt. Right now I am still so RAW and confused. At times I think I'm going to lose my mind! So I'm going to ask if you could give me a hug and help me settle myself down." See how she addresses WHAT occurred that "started it", keeps on what SHE feels and thinks, doesn't blame you, and then respectfully makes a request that you could do to help? That would be :smthumbup: and if you wanted to do so...go for it.
> 
> But what is not cool is when she puts HER baggage on you and blames you for her actions and choices. NOT COOL  That would sound like this: "When you play that song just now, it reminded me of all the days you left me sitting her alone even though I begged you to come home and you ignored me! No wonder I had to turn to someone else, you didn't care about me! I think you're just trying to trap me and force me to do it your way and I deserve to be happy! Turn that sh*t off and play something decent! (crying)" See how she says what "started it" but then detours into blaming you (hey nothing personal but maybe you did leave her home for hours...because when you finally DID come home she griped at you for hours!), using that as justification for her infidelity, telling you what you think and feel, making a disrespectful judgment about your motives, and then being demanding and using strong language? But she covers all that bad behavior "with tears"? In that kind of scenario I think MEM's response is perfect:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay this is relatively easy actually. Right now she looks at and thinks of you, and she associates "bad" with you and "good" with the OM. She has bad memories, feels bad around you, thinks badly of you.... And the idea I had about being her friend was not to take her out on dates or like I said, be the guy in the friend zone. YOU are her HUSBAND! YOU have certain rights to expectations, because SHE made a covenant with YOU to forsake all others and give 100% of her affection and loyalty to YOU! Thus, it's not a matter of "chase her"--you two would spin your tires for years doing that! Nope, you need to #1 man up and #2 remove the MNG=Bad with MNG=Good. Give her some memories where she'd say "Oh huh...that was actually fun!"
> 
> As an example, shortly after our reunion, Dear Hubby and I renewed our interest in going to local muscle car shows. I have always loved them and so has he, so we went and it wasn't a "date" per se but something we both enjoy doing (shoot, I would have fun all by myself) and something where I could say "Wow, I actually enjoyed that time." He didn't bring up affairs or ask deep questions...we just enjoyed being together and added some Hubby=Good associations. However, it's just as vital (probably MORESO!!) to also avoid every MNG=Bad that is within your control. Let me say that again:
> 
> Avoid every MNG=Bad that is within YOUR control. Her choices are not in your control. Consequences of her choices are not in your control. Her baggage/issues are not in your control. Her feelings are not in your control. GET IT???
> 
> 
> THIS is BRILLIANT and I will even go one step further. Make a "business plan" for yourself for the year. Include what you plan to do FOR YOU, what/how you intend to handle finances, and precisely how you will arrange your life so you will be completely fine without her. Then, if she joins you, you'll be "ahead" and if she flips out and leaves, you will be tighter but still be fine. Allow her to see how she might fit into the plan. Write a mission statement. Get the idea? Then when you feel emotional and you have to wait for your head to kick back in...once it kicks in you can be CLEAR: "How will with work FOR or AGAINST my mission plan?"
> 
> 
> Yep I agree :iagree: here too. Part of the issue is that if you're all together in the bedroom and still not having sex, she'll forever use that as a weapon to "get her way" just like "I'm divorcing you." The responsibilities of marriage just are NOT all you!! She has to also submit (yes...that word!) to acknowledging that she also has some responsibilities because she made the vow, and one of those joyful jobs is a MUTUALLY SATISFYING SEX LIFE!! Thus I think I'd say what Dear Hubby said again: "I want to be in our marriage bed together but I'm not willing to return to a bed where there is not a mutually satisfying sex life. If you want no sex, I can not stop you. But I will not sleep next to someone night after night who rejects me, and I will not have sex used as a weapon against me. If you won't commit to our marriage and have a satisfying love life, stop talking about coming back to bed. If you intend to follow through, then change your tactics and indicate that you're in this to FIX it."


----------



## nice777guy

OOE said:


> MNG,
> 
> Please read my story:
> 
> My exW was EXTREMELY controlling pretty much from the time we met. I knew it going in, but thought I could "fix" her.
> 
> At the beginning of our marriage, the power in our relationship was pretty balanced, but over time she whittled away at that balance. In tiny steps, I'd give in "to keep the peace," until after several years she was the one in charge - completely. She's super intelligent, and even though much of this was subconcious on her part, I always felt like I was a step behind in the battles.
> 
> Right at seven years I discovered that she was having an EA with a man in another state and was planning on meeting him (found evidence on her computer after suspicions). I confronted her. Her words, tone, demeanor, and even comments about our marriage were almost word-for-word what your W used. Really the only exception was that she repeatedly said that she just wanted someone to "take care of her" rather than the "lead her" that your W has said. She also repeatedly talked about how I'd changed - I was no longer the man she married.
> 
> The only thing I did semi-right back then was that when she first said the word divorce, I was non-emotional and told her that if this guy meant more to her than her family she should pack her bags and move to Utah, and that I'd help her... "tonight."
> 
> She backed down, cried (one of her main controlling mechanisms) and suggested we go to MC.
> 
> The MC had "us" (really me, since she changed nothing) work on communication and showing each other how we felt by acts of love. It "worked." She stayed.
> 
> In a very very short time, things were exactly where they were before the EA. Unfortunately, physical abuse started next. She'd start on one of the kids, and I'd intercede. Then she'd turn on me. I'm bigger than her, and she never really hurt me, but abuse is abuse. Eventually she bypassed the kids and started on me first. It's just another potential step they can take when you're a doormat. I knew her childhood, and I felt sorry for her mother for making her "like that," so I took it. I never realized how it was all a downward spiral.
> 
> Six years after the EA my spider sense told me "it" was happening again. Again I snooped her computer and discovered not just one PA, but three ongoing PA's. Today I realize that she'd probably had ongoing PA's for a long time but only started having trouble hiding them when she was juggling more than one.
> 
> I also discovered that she had been using substantial amounts of escrow money from her business to support her PA's.
> 
> I moved out that afternoon. Her criminal activities put our house at risk, and I had to have a safe home for our kids - away from her criminal behavior and physical abuse.
> 
> Today, using my awesome powers of 20/20 hindsight, I see that what she really needed from the first day of our marriage was a man whose backbone could stand up to her without budging. I was not being that man. While it's good to strive for a balance of power, unless you're extremely fortunate, there will always be some imbalance. Most (all?) women need their H to be the one on the alpha side of this equation.
> 
> A narcissistic, controlling ^&*%# needs a *very* strong man - not a MNG. She told me over and over that she needed someone to take care of her (strong H) and that I'd changed (didn't matter that she forced me to change).
> 
> That's exactly what your W is telling you she needs.
> 
> Be that man.
> 
> Or let her go.
> 
> 
> 
> -OOE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. My friends and family said that my demeanor changed almost immediately after moving out. I'd looked like a beat-down dog.
> 
> A few months after the divorce, we had to talk with our oldest son's Principal following an incident at school (not related to family issues). I handled the whole meeting, and even led the Principal. I was the alpha in the room. Afterwards she asked, "why couldn't you have been like that in our marriage?" Great question.
> 
> P.P.S. MEM's advice is exactly right. If I were in your shoes again, I'd use his suggestions verbatim.


Thank you for sharing.

Do you truly believe that your wife would have been a different person had you "manned up" earlier? Guess I'm thinking that crazy is just plain crazy.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Thank you for sharing.
> 
> Do you truly believe that your wife would have been a different person had you "manned up" earlier? Guess I'm thinking that crazy is just plain crazy.


Quoting MEM from Trenton's thread:

Deejo, 

This thread - and your comment has been incredibly illuminating to me. 

It caused me to ask myself a question. 

Is my W a controlling beitch intent on emotionally castrating me and achieving total dominion over our house?

OR

Is my W an honest, fair, intelligent, hilariously funny, considerate, loving person who is ALSO rather aggressive in mostly a very positive manner with the exception of some moderate, but manageable boundary issues? (sorry for the run on sentence)

It sure seems like the answer has absolutely nothing to do with her and EVERYTHING to do with me. And so instead of asking what SHE is, perhaps better to ask what "I" am. 

Am I the strong man she married, who is still striving to reach his full potential and full of positive energy? Or am I the passive / aggressive, conflict avoidant man that I could all too easily turn into? 

At the level of fusion she and I have achieved - the answer to my question IS the answer to her question.

*****************

Start passing those fitness tests boys.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> Quoting MEM from Trenton's thread:
> 
> Deejo,
> 
> This thread - and your comment has been incredibly illuminating to me.
> 
> It caused me to ask myself a question.
> 
> Is my W a controlling beitch intent on emotionally castrating me and achieving total dominion over our house?
> 
> OR
> 
> Is my W an honest, fair, intelligent, hilariously funny, considerate, loving person who is ALSO rather aggressive in mostly a very positive manner with the exception of some moderate, but manageable boundary issues? (sorry for the run on sentence)
> 
> It sure seems like the answer has absolutely nothing to do with her and EVERYTHING to do with me. And so instead of asking what SHE is, perhaps better to ask what "I" am.
> 
> Am I the strong man she married, who is still striving to reach his full potential and full of positive energy? Or am I the passive / aggressive, conflict avoidant man that I could all too easily turn into?
> 
> At the level of fusion she and I have achieved - the answer to my question IS the answer to her question.
> 
> *****************
> 
> Start passing those fitness tests boys.


Yeah - read that - but MEM and his wife have been doing this dance for many years - he even mentions a level of 'fusion'. Doesn't sound like this guy and his wife were ever quite equals.


----------



## nice777guy

Put another way - if you were single and met this girl NOW - and she was open about her past marriage and the issues she created, but blamed her husband for not being "Man enough" for her - would you say "here's a woman who just needs a strong hand to guide her" OR would you just turn and run away?


----------



## MEM2020

*Aggression only becomes insanity when unchecked*

OOE,
Thanks for your very honest post. 

NG,
Sorry man - but OOE hit so many nerves with his post - I just cannot resist. 

OOE,
Like you I am bigger / stronger than my W. And like your ex - my W very smart and is both emotionally and physically aggressive. Actually that is quite fun - UP TO A POINT. You mentioned "whittling" what a great term. Perfect. I have 2 very recent examples of attempts to whittle - one physical and one emotional. And one example of a mis-step on my part that could have quickly escalated. 

My W likes to wrestle. Well actually I am wrestling and she is doing some unskilled version of no-holds barred MMA fighting. She has always liked "light" biting. But that slowly changed. And two weeks ago - after a very near miss I realized she was going to break skin soon if I didn't do something. I told her the biting needed to stop - totally. Her response was a mischievous grin and the explanation that she "liked" biting. 

Being "old school" no way in hell am I going to bite her back. And my typical response to her pushing the edge in physical aggression (which is to pin and spank her) didn't seem like a barrier to her biting. So on the spot I created a little "avatar". And I named him Mr. Thumbly (my right thumb). I pinned her and placed Mr. Thumbly against her "under arm" - that nasty spot full of nerves and introduced him to her. Like many people she HATES being touched there. And I explained that if she were to even "nip" me again I was going to set Mr. Thumbly loose on her in a manner that was going to cause her intense anguish but would leave no marks and no bruises. She instantly begged for mercy and promised to completely stop with the biting. Is she crazy? Nope. Just aggressive. But completely "sane" aggressive. 

The second whittle had to do with whether I deserved her undivided attention when we were speaking. 

We are in the kitchen talking and she picks up and begins reading the credit card statement. I stop speaking. She looks up and tells me she is "listening". I take her at her word - hell females are supposedly better multi-taskers. We finish the conversation. 

One hour later in the bedroom. We are talking - actually she is speaking: I start doing some laundry. This was not a tit-for-tat. I am "laundry man" in our house and I just started folding from the basket. She suddenly gets annoyed. Asks me "what I am doing". 

Repressing both the urge to laugh and the even stronger desire to compare the relative cognitive load of folding clothes versus reading a credit card statement I put the clothing down and tilt my head quizzically. I speak: "Gosh - you look - I mean it is incredible - but you look EXACTLY like the woman in the kitchen just told me she can read a credit statement while talking". Punctuated by my trademark shrug that means "life is full of mysteries". 

She pauses - digests - and then holds her hand out to me in a manner that means "I surrender and I am sorry". I lean forward and clasp her hand and give her a big smile.

Neither of these "incidents" caused me any distress. Both got resolved in under a minute without any harsh words. In both cases - had I let her whittle - it would have been bad for both of us, and our marriage. 



nice777guy said:


> Thank you for sharing.
> 
> Do you truly believe that your wife would have been a different person had you "manned up" earlier? Guess I'm thinking that crazy is just plain crazy.


----------



## OOE

nice777guy said:


> Put another way - if you were single and met this girl NOW - and she was open about her past marriage and the issues she created, but blamed her husband for not being "Man enough" for her - would you say "here's a woman who just needs a strong hand to guide her" OR would you just turn and run away?


That's a different issue than what MNG is facing. I would never enter into a relationship again with someone as messed up as she was when we met. It only goes downhill.

But... some of the problems were because of who she is, but some were because of who I was.

I had never read or heard anything like what's on these boards. Our MC certainly never brought these things up. If she had, I would have worked at doing the right things for that relationship, even though it would mean learning how to be stronger in the relationship. I was in the "save this marriage" mode for a LONG time, and had I known what to do, I would have done it.

If I had learned that strength and backbone was what she needed rather than "communication" and "love," would it have kept her from continuing down the affair path or stopped her from committing fraud? Who's to say?

I do know that it would have fixed some of *my* nice-guy issues. That was kind of my point. MNG can only change himself. If he makes the right changes, his marriage has a chance, and even if things don't work out, he's a better man in future relationships. 

If he doesn't show that he's the man in the marriage, sooner or later things will get even worse than they are now.


----------



## nice777guy

So MEM - you "are" saying that this woman would possibly still attract you in spite of the EAs and PAs?

Or even - to take it a bit further - do you think your wife would go to the extremes that OOE's did (multiple EAs and PAs) if you did not stick your thumb in her armpit from time to time?


----------



## Conrad

We can only bring our "A" game.

The difficult part was/is figuring out what your "A" game looks like.

Far too many people think "helping" and being a "doormat" are part of their "A" game.

To quote BigBadWolf... "No man ever scored with a woman by pushing a vacuum cleaner"

He is 100% correct.


----------



## nice777guy

OOE said:


> That's a different issue than what MNG is facing. I would never enter into a relationship again with someone as messed up as she was when we met. It only goes downhill.


Gotcha...different...



OOE said:


> But... some of the problems were because of who she is, but some were because of who I was.
> 
> I had never read or heard anything like what's on these boards. Our MC certainly never brought these things up. If she had, I would have worked at doing the right things for that relationship, even though it would mean learning how to be stronger in the relationship. I was in the "save this marriage" mode for a LONG time, and had I known what to do, I would have done it.
> 
> If I had learned that strength and backbone was what she needed rather than "communication" and "love," would it have kept her from continuing down the affair path or stopped her from committing fraud? Who's to say?
> 
> I do know that it would have fixed some of *my* nice-guy issues. That was kind of my point. MNG can only change himself. If he makes the right changes, his marriage has a chance, and even if things don't work out, he's a better man in future relationships.
> 
> If he doesn't show that he's the man in the marriage, sooner or later things will get even worse than they are now.


hmmm...


----------



## OOE

*Re: Aggression only becomes insanity when unchecked*



MEM11363 said:


> OOE,
> Like you I am bigger / stronger than my W. And like your ex - my W very smart and is both emotionally and physically aggressive.


My ex is emotionally, physically and sexually aggressive. Since I am also very old school, I only handled one of the three well.


----------



## MEM2020

She is religious - so I doubt that she would cheat. 

My W - unchecked - at full throttle aggression - would tear the marriage apart in a year or two. She would either divorce me - or create such a crazy environment that I would leave her. 

I KNOW that is harsh. It doesn't just "sound" harsh - it IS harsh. But it is also true. That said I want to add a disclaimer. I have only had to threaten thumbthing physically aggressive once in 21 years. I only raised it because - my W - who I consider FULLY sane and rational was allowing her aggression to push her into the red zone with me. 

She runs a small business for us. She deals with tons of people very effectively: friendly, firm and fair. Our customers love her. She feels very safe with me. So I need to set boundaries. As you can tell she responds very well to a light touch on the boundaries. 

If I did not set boundaries..... 

That said - if I met a woman who divorced a guy for being too weak. Fine. But if she stayed and cheated - not fine. 




nice777guy said:


> So MEM - you "are" saying that this woman would possibly still attract you in spite of the EAs and PAs?
> 
> Or even - to take it a bit further - do you think your wife would go to the extremes that OOE's did (multiple EAs and PAs) if you did not stick your thumb in her armpit from time to time?


----------



## Conrad

My wife shares much in common with MEM's wife.

Much as my life is littered with failed relationships, so is hers.

Someone simply having those issues in the past is not a deterrent to me. For I have had them as well.

Someone having those issues WITH ME is a big deterrent to moving forward - with anything.

NiceGuy - I hear your skepticism. I understand it. But, I think you are wrong.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> My wife shares much in common with MEM's wife.
> 
> Much as my life is littered with failed relationships, so is hers.
> 
> Someone simply having those issues in the past is not a deterrent to me. For I have had them as well.
> 
> Someone having those issues WITH ME is a big deterrent to moving forward - with anything.
> 
> NiceGuy - I hear your skepticism. I understand it. But, I think you are wrong.


I see there is a fine line between "bat$hit crazy" in a bad way and "bat$hit crazy" in a good, exciting way. Guess I always thought it was up to my wife (for example) and not me to keep her out of the asylum.

Conrad - you may be right...


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> I see there is a fine line between "bat$hit crazy" in a bad way and "bat$hit crazy" in a good, exciting way. Guess I always thought it was up to my wife (for example) and not me to keep her out of the asylum.
> 
> Conrad - you may be right...


Have you given any more thought to that biker outing?

She may be telling you something about "good crazy".


----------



## nice777guy

A bit more thought. Had temporarily agreed - and then SHE backed off.

Trying to find a compromise, but I know we need a vacation for just the two of us.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> A bit more thought. Had temporarily agreed - and then SHE backed off.
> 
> Trying to find a compromise, but I know we need a vacation for just the two of us.


Do you like New Orleans?


----------



## nice777guy

Never been to New Orleans...why?

What bothers me about these rallys is that they are on private grounds - no police.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Never been to New Orleans...why?
> 
> What bothers me about these rallys is that they are on private grounds - no police.


New Orleans is a great compromise type of place for couples.

It's as raunchy and as classy as you want - all at the same time.

5 star restaurants, ethnic cooking, casinos, great music, strip clubs, riverboat jazz, night life, street performers, art, etc.

Suffice it to say, when "Mrs. Conrad" and I need a break, we know where to go.

We often nap after dinner - wake up at midnight and party til dawn.

Kids know nothing about how we behave down there.

I'll bet you two would enjoy it - and she'd be pleasantly surprised you thought of her in that way.


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
Would you skydive with your W? I think she likes the sensation of danger. Doesn't have to be skydiving - it does have to be something that is different and has at least the perception of being risky. Rock climbing - whatever. 




nice777guy said:


> Never been to New Orleans...why?
> 
> What bothers me about these rallys is that they are on private grounds - no police.


----------



## MEM2020

If I could dial down her aggression even a little bit I would not. The good/exciting crazy is way more positive than the borderline bat$hit crazy of "I like biting". Still the 10 minutes a week of boundary enforcement is simply like a constantly evolving N-dimensional puzzle. The prize for solving the puzzle - self satisfaction plus being in love. 

And when I am "sick" which is rare - she goes into nurse mode and is completely sweet and nice. No aggression at all in that situation. 



nice777guy said:


> I see there is a fine line between "bat$hit crazy" in a bad way and "bat$hit crazy" in a good, exciting way. Guess I always thought it was up to my wife (for example) and not me to keep her out of the asylum.
> 
> Conrad - you may be right...


----------



## IanIronwood

nice777guy said:


> Never been to New Orleans...why?
> 
> What bothers me about these rallys is that they are on private grounds - no police.


You wanted some excitement. That means some risk. If you can't handle the risk, rethink the level of excitement. In a environment devoid of authority, there are ample opportunities to run into problems. You'll be able to handle most problems. Besides, you start trouble at one of those rallies and you don't have at least two felonies, you'll get ejected. Two felonies and up and they put you on the security team.


----------



## spartan

been a few days and no updates from MNG. Hope it's working out for him...


----------



## Conrad

He indicated he was going to be less vocal for awhile.

He's likely negotiating the terms of her free rent.


----------



## spartan

Conrad said:


> He indicated he was going to be less vocal for awhile.
> 
> He's likely negotiating the terms of her free rent.


I feel for the guy. I really do. He got himself some band-aids, scotch tape and a broom and is trying to piece it back together and sweep it under the rug without ever addressing the real issues at hand. Best of luck to him on this.


----------



## nice777guy

Does "Manning Up" work if you're just faking it?

I tried for a while to fake that I didn't care - and I was lousy at it. But when i truly started to care less - things got better.

If he wasn't really there yet, his results were bound to be temporary and limited.

Although it sounds like he did at least kill the EA.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Lots of ups and downs the past couple of days. Mostly positive though. I am continuing to assert myself in this relationship. She has continued to come to grips of her affair. She told me that she is "having a new emotion ever 10 minutes" to quote a line from the move "Singles". Lots of sobbing... So, the recovery from the affair is still ongoing. Overall, she is warming up and we are talking more about our future. She said to me yesterday, tearfully, how can she break up this family? She doesn't think she has it in her. There has been almost no talk about leaving the past couple of days.

Basically, she has said she wants two things that have been lacking in our relationship, sex and money. Money has been in short supply around her the past couple of years and so has the sex. My business is doing better, but not quite where we expected before the big recession. So she is going back to work for "the family" as she said. Obviously the sex part has been lacking. The sex thing is so important to me going forward that if we can't get it on track in the coming months, we will have to split up. It's that simple. I'm realizing how attractive I am to so many women. I meet them all day long in my business and they respond favorably. These are women 10+ years younger than my wife. I know what's waiting out there for me if I choose that path... my goal, though is to keep the family together and get my needs met in this relationship.

One funny thing, I asked her two days ago if she could make dinner because I was going to be late coming home. She huffed and walked away to meet a friend for coffee. I then sent her an email to "step up" (poor choice of words). I was tired of cooking and she needed to more as she had requested that I spend less time in the kitchen the day before. She got hopping mad at me for the tone in my email, she said in email back to me that she could barely speak. Got home that evening and while she was mad at me for my email, we chatted about it for a couple of minutes and I told her that "step up" might be a poor choice of words, but the intent was to get her to cook in these nights that I can't. Lo and behold, she had everything for a nice dinner and she made it without complaint. Hmmm...

She has said it so many times, she needs firm boundaries and wants me to lead. She has been talking more about our future together and can we make this work kind of stuff. She has said that we need a new dynamic and I agree. We simply can't go back to the way it was before. I don't know if the new dynamic is possible between us, but I would like to try it out and see if it goes anywhere, but I am not prepared to keep this marriage together at all costs.

So, it seems that where we stand. She is still working through the affair in her head, I'm manning up, she has several job interviews coming up (high paying ones I might add). Little talk of leaving and divorce this past few days. I'm in no rush right now, it's going to take more time that I thought...


----------



## Neil

Sounds a little better.

But, Like I said a fwe posts ago, she is screaming out for you (AND ASKING YOU DIRECTLY) to lead, Man-up and stand your ground...

DO IT

Again, you see a reaction when you do (ie, "step up" as you say), and guess what, she did didn't she?

This is what she is wanting, you to be the Man, 

Now if you want sex, sex and more sex (it won't come over night and not necesserally in the next few weeks/months), but be the Man, and Man up like she is wanting you to, and you WILL get that...

Good Luck, and Keep going


----------



## IanIronwood

And quit apologizing. "Step up" is perfectly reasonable, legitimately compelling language, and appropriate to the situation. You meant it when you wrote it, didn't you? Then don't back down from that.

You may apologize, if you must, that your words hurt her feelings, but you don't back down from a stand once you've taken it without a compelling reason. Her being pi$$ed off is not a sufficient reason.

Sounds like things over-all are going well, but I'd say she's waiting for you to get complacent again. Don't be afraid to hold her to account over things like chores. 

The sex issue is tricky, but I'd caution you against moving anywhere near there until most of the rest of the relationship is resolved. And now would be a good time, during these discussions with her (if you MUST have them) to reiterate that your expectations in any future sexual relationship will be high. No need to go into more detail, but make certain she realizes that sex, for you, is a serious motivating factor in your relationship, and that you value yourself enough to insist that your future sexual relationships will be fulfilling -- to you, as well as your partner. If that fact is kept to the fore during these discussions then if things do work out, she will understand that the status quo ante infidelitas isn't going to be sufficient. No surprises.

Keep it up. And are you wearing your wedding ring now?


----------



## spartan

isn't it amazing MNG what happens when we take off the blinders put on us via marriage and actually look at the world as a potentially single man? Men like us who love our families, respect our wives and have manned up are really high in demand! Unless you look like a gnome I would think that you would have no problem back out in the dating world....

Now finally coming to terms with where you would be if this relationship did not work out and realizing that you would be a great catch for a "newer model car" it's time to now hone in on your relationship with your wife. You needed to do some serious searching for yourself. Hopefully you have found yourself and your manhood and its time to take what you have learned back into your relationship.

This could have been the best thing to happen for you in a strange and sadistic way. I am sure it felt great to come home to a meal that you didn't have to prepare. It probably felt great to tell her to "step up"! The new dynamic she is talking about is YOU. And it really is nothing new to her being honest, it is just about being the guy that she fell in love with all those years ago when she said I DO. You weren't a laundry folding, dinner cooking, chick flick watching, pass the tissues emotional train wreck guy back then that you evolved into today...... Think about that for a while and remember all that you have learned so far. Buddy, it really is eye opening when you get to that point.

KEEP IT UP and remember what AC's husband said- "If that is what you want, I can not stop you. But I will not talk divorce, I will not talk separation, if you walk out the door I will close it forever and you'll never come back, and I will not live with you holding that over my head. If you mean it, stop saying it and go. If you don't intend to follow through, then change your tactics and indicate that you're in this to FIX it."

happy for you MNG-


----------



## Deejo

"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."

I'm not at all surprised about her concern for "breaking up the family."
But I don't buy it for a minute. 

As for her wanting to get a job to 'contribute to the family'?
Call it my cynical side. She is going to take a stab at making it work with you (to her satisfaction, not yours) while working a job and socking away money, so that when she decides it isn't working to her satisfaction, she will have seed-money for her new life.

Be advised, and simply aware once she does get that job - where the money is going. I'm admittedly reading tea leaves. My request is that you simply do not give this woman your unequivocal trust. She doesn't deserve it. Not yet.


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
Do you have a written schedule of who is responsible for what chores?

Have you thought about doing a biz plan for the business?



MisterNiceGuy said:


> Lots of ups and downs the past couple of days. Mostly positive though. I am continuing to assert myself in this relationship. She has continued to come to grips of her affair. She told me that she is "having a new emotion ever 10 minutes" to quote a line from the move "Singles". Lots of sobbing... So, the recovery from the affair is still ongoing. Overall, she is warming up and we are talking more about our future. She said to me yesterday, tearfully, how can she break up this family? She doesn't think she has it in her. There has been almost no talk about leaving the past couple of days.
> 
> Basically, she has said she wants two things that have been lacking in our relationship, sex and money. Money has been in short supply around her the past couple of years and so has the sex. My business is doing better, but not quite where we expected before the big recession. So she is going back to work for "the family" as she said. Obviously the sex part has been lacking. The sex thing is so important to me going forward that if we can't get it on track in the coming months, we will have to split up. It's that simple. I'm realizing how attractive I am to so many women. I meet them all day long in my business and they respond favorably. These are women 10+ years younger than my wife. I know what's waiting out there for me if I choose that path... my goal, though is to keep the family together and get my needs met in this relationship.
> 
> One funny thing, I asked her two days ago if she could make dinner because I was going to be late coming home. She huffed and walked away to meet a friend for coffee. I then sent her an email to "step up" (poor choice of words). I was tired of cooking and she needed to more as she had requested that I spend less time in the kitchen the day before. She got hopping mad at me for the tone in my email, she said in email back to me that she could barely speak. Got home that evening and while she was mad at me for my email, we chatted about it for a couple of minutes and I told her that "step up" might be a poor choice of words, but the intent was to get her to cook in these nights that I can't. Lo and behold, she had everything for a nice dinner and she made it without complaint. Hmmm...
> 
> She has said it so many times, she needs firm boundaries and wants me to lead. She has been talking more about our future together and can we make this work kind of stuff. She has said that we need a new dynamic and I agree. We simply can't go back to the way it was before. I don't know if the new dynamic is possible between us, but I would like to try it out and see if it goes anywhere, but I am not prepared to keep this marriage together at all costs.
> 
> So, it seems that where we stand. She is still working through the affair in her head, I'm manning up, she has several job interviews coming up (high paying ones I might add). Little talk of leaving and divorce this past few days. I'm in no rush right now, it's going to take more time that I thought...


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."
> 
> I'm not at all surprised about her concern for "breaking up the family."
> But I don't buy it for a minute.
> 
> As for her wanting to get a job to 'contribute to the family'?
> Call it my cynical side. She is going to take a stab at making it work with you (to her satisfaction, not yours) while working a job and socking away money, so that when she decides it isn't working to her satisfaction, she will have seed-money for her new life.
> 
> Be advised, and simply aware once she does get that job - where the money is going. I'm admittedly reading tea leaves. My request is that you simply do not give this woman your unequivocal trust. She doesn't deserve it. Not yet.


I was typing the exact same thing.

One of the main reasons she isn't gone is financial.

Once that's removed?

Nearly everything she's said over the past several months has been a lie.

Trust - but verify.


----------



## MEM2020

The new job may prove to be her hunting ground for MNGs replacement. MNG - you have known "money" was an issue for a long time. And by that - her belief you aren't really stepping up at work. There is an undertone of frustration from her - "since you can't get it done - now I will go get a job". 

I find it interesting that your focus is on getting laid (which is basically getting female approval - instead of writing a biz plan which is actually part of manning up). I get that sex is important - very important - but your self improvement needs to be more important. 

You don't seem to fully grasp the connection between your provider skills and her respect for you. She is not unusual in this regard. 




Conrad said:


> I was typing the exact same thing.
> 
> One of the main reasons she isn't gone is financial.
> 
> Once that's removed?
> 
> Nearly everything she's said over the past several months has been a lie.
> 
> Trust - but verify.


----------



## IanIronwood

MEM11363 said:


> The new job may prove to be her hunting ground for MNGs replacement. MNG - you have known "money" was an issue for a long time. And by that - her belief you aren't really stepping up at work. There is an undertone of frustration from her - "since you can't get it done - now I will go get a job".
> 
> I find it interesting that your focus is on getting laid (which is basically getting female approval - instead of writing a biz plan which is actually part of manning up). I get that sex is important - very important - but your self improvement needs to be more important.
> 
> You don't seem to fully grasp the connection between your provider skills and her respect for you. She is not unusual in this regard.


I agree. Be very wary. And just accept the fact that you're going to be celibate for the next six months, and _use it_. As furious as the Buzz is in your head, it makes you sharper, hungrier, more willing to take risks. That is, it will sharpen your Alpha. And once you take sex off the table, even in your head, and you banish any thought of the terribly cathartic and highly erotic reconciliation. It's a lovely fantasy, but that's not going to happen (and if it did, it wouldn't necessarily be conducive to your long term goals.).

By putting your sex drive in Neutral (not Park), you can focus on the important matters at hand. And you'll quit worrying about when you're going to get laid. Let the tiger blood back up for a few weeks and use that natural aggression to assist you manning up. And once you remove sex from her as leverage, you'll see the rest of the relationship in a lot clearer light. 

I love sex -- but it can cloud your judgement and obscure reality.


----------



## spartan

we don't know for certain that her getting a job is equivalent to her buying some more time in the relationship until she can be financially stable and move on right?

This is a great win for MNG in my book. She gets out of the business (win for him) and she goes out and finds a decent paying job and potentially a new career (win for both). Extra money coming in which allows for more trips with the family and an opportunity to lose some financial stress. 


MNG wanting to get laid is a perfectly natural thing to do! Come on guys, this is a personal fitness test that we go through to take stock of ourselves and a HUGE confidence booster to our self esteem when a younger and prettier girl find us appealing. I think he needed to see that there is indeed life after divorce (if it came down to that) and just knowing that he would be fine if the marriage was over helps him to continue in his manning up phase.

At the end of all of this we all know that no matter what he does it is ultimately up to his wife to make the decision to either stay or go in this marriage. What he is hopefully doing is making himself as a man and a father a much better person and laying a new foundation of which this marriage will be supported on. 

I say again, good work so far MNG


----------



## Conrad

>>it is ultimately up to his wife to make the decision to either stay or go in this marriage<<

That's her perception also - and a big part of the problem


----------



## eagleclaw

I see her comments AGAIN as why this was your fault. Money - which you both have business together and in this economy everyone is struggling, and Sex - to which she is again responsibile for stifling. She is still blaming you for things outside of your control - even things SHE is directly responsbile for.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. You need to get strong with her. If she's apologizing listen. If she's projecting her faults or others faults onto you - conversation is over.

Your giving her way too much lattitude to to continue disprecting you, blaming you and not really expressing much remorse for the situation she created. I think I would be manning up and enforcing my expectations at a much higher level.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

Was TOM rather well off?

How does his house and lifestyle compare to yours?

Car?


----------



## IanIronwood

spartan said:


> MNG wanting to get laid is a perfectly natural thing to do! Come on guys, this is a personal fitness test that we go through to take stock of ourselves and a HUGE confidence booster to our self esteem when a younger and prettier girl find us appealing. I think he needed to see that there is indeed life after divorce (if it came down to that) and just knowing that he would be fine if the marriage was over helps him to continue in his manning up phase.


I'm not saying don't think about sex at all, don't flirt or improve yourself, don't take pride in your appearance, etc. . . what I'm saying is you can do all that and still keep the expectation of sex off the table for six months. In six months the marriage will be resolved one way or another. Doing this now gives him strength, power, and leverage in the relationship (and doesn't hurt him one bit). It keeps her from exploiting the one thing she knows that he'll respond to. It also forces her to deal with the other issues without clouding things with sex.

Sure, we all want to get laid. But when getting laid ends up not serving our long-term interests, then the wise man will gladly abstain until the situation is clearer. It drives a lot of the uncertainty out of the air. It can be discussed, intellectually, but as far as action it would perpetrate the illusion that everything is fine when it so isn't. By abstaining he's sacrificing his libido for long-term gain. 

Remember the old joke: A young bull and an old bull were hanging out eating grass on top of a big hill, when the young bull says to the older bull, "I'm gonna run down this hill and screw one of those heifers!" and started to go. The old bull stopped him. "Listen up, son: if we _walk_ down the hill, we can screw ALL of 'em!"

Take your time. Be patient. Don't rush things. CONTROL the situation, don't let it control you. Women know that sex is one of our sore spots, and they know how to use it against us. It's a trap! You cannot resist primal urges of that magnitude! So avoid it all together.


----------



## IanIronwood

Conrad said:


> He thought he was being supportive and helpful.
> 
> In other words, he believed the propaganda spewed by the dominant media.
> 
> She never complained, as it did make her "day to day" life so much more care free. She had time for exciting EA's and the like.
> 
> She helped create the very thing that repulsed her.


Word. You can't systematically domesticate and emasculate a man for ten years and then complain that he's not the superhero in the bedroom that you really want. That goes for the entire generation.

The problem is that a whole generation of men tried to give their wives what they said that they wanted, without good guidance from the discredited or absent previous generation, and now their marriages are suffering as a result. Women have unrealistic expectations about marriage thanks to everything from Disney to Cosmo. Men have unrealistic expectations about marriage because they listen to the women in their lives (mothers, sisters, etc.) about how to be a good husband and not the very few men who manage it. Add in internet porn, instant messaging, Craig's List and Facebook and you have a recipe for how to blow up a marriage if you aren't very, very careful and very, very wise. Throw in very, very lucky, just for kicks.

Men need proper cultural models if they are going to be able to reclaim their masculinity -- not just for warfare and sports and vocational things, but for being good husbands and fathers.


----------



## F-102

Why do I get the feeling that, despite the good signs he has just written about, in two more days, she will be sobbing again, saying that MNG ruined her life?

As far as the job and money, MNG, haven't you ever heard the old saying about the money a woman makes from her job?

"What's his is ours, and what's mine is mine!"

I'd seriously consider letting her go, let her have the fantasy life she wants and you are paying the price for.
You'll meet someone new, you probably have a good life ahead of you.

She, on the other hand, 10 years from now will be living in a one-room apartment in a section 8 building, asking her 20 smelly cats how everything could go so wrong.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> MNG,
> 
> Was TOM rather well off?
> 
> How does his house and lifestyle compare to yours?
> 
> Car?


He is really well off. We are in the upper middle class and he is very rich. Most of that money came from his wife's hard work in the tech world. He is the most complete beta guy you'd ever meet. Basically a SAHD with a couple of pre teen kids. But apparently a better "listener" than I was...


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> He is really well off. We are in the upper middle class and he is very rich. Most of that money came from his wife's hard work in the tech world. He is the most complete beta guy you'd ever meet. Basically a SAHD with a couple of pre teen kids. But apparently a better "listener" than I was...


With a fatter wallet.

This is clear now - again MEM is on the mark.

Do the business plan. Hit the money thing hard.

His Needs Her Needs author reports female need for financial security.

It may sound rather base, but it's the missing ingredient.

Your move.

It's likely the boys here will buy some of your products to help you out. If that's what you really want


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> With a fatter wallet.
> 
> This is clear now - again MEM is on the mark.
> 
> Do the business plan. Hit the money thing hard.
> 
> His Needs Her Needs author reports female need for financial security.
> 
> It may sound rather base, but it's the missing ingredient.
> 
> Your move.
> 
> It's likely the boys here will buy some of your products to help you out. If that's what you really want


She told me last week this whole thing has come down to sex and money. The two missing ingredients of our marriage. The money is starting to come in more and more but not fast enough and the sex part isn't coming in at all... and maybe never will between us again. Who knows... We already have a business plan, a pretty well thought out one that has us being very profitable in a couple of years. But there isn't enough money just yet and so she is going to get a job for a couple of years to make ends meet and maybe come back to the business. We shall see...


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She told me last week this whole thing has come down to sex and money. The two missing ingredients of our marriage. The money is starting to come in more and more but not fast enough and the sex part isn't coming in at all... and maybe never will between us again. Who knows... We already have a business plan, a pretty well thought out one that has us being very profitable in a couple of years. But there isn't enough money just yet and so she is going to get a job for a couple of years to make ends meet and maybe come back to the business. We shall see...


Isn't it amazing how much more alluring a man is with a couple more zeros to his name?

Sex and money. Mostly the money. I guess that's code for "chemistry".


----------



## Trenton

I want to interject here that I completely agree with Mem on this 100%. Reading his post on biting was like reading a post from my husband. I do/did the exact same thing. I love light biting but have gotten carried away and my husband handled it the exact same way Mem did (baring naming it in a cute way-haha). I also LOVE to wrestle with my husband. It is a way for him to show me his strength and for me to get out some of my aggression in a safe way. I *really *miss it since things have been going in a negative direction in our relationship.

This quote from Mem:
"My W - unchecked - at full throttle aggression - would tear the marriage apart in a year or two. She would either divorce me - or create such a crazy environment that I would leave her."

It couldn't be more true. It *is *what I am doing.

The more I get into it the more clear it becomes. I want, no, I need, for my husband to reclaim his strength and begin steering this relationship again. His insecurities and fears are only magnifying my own, causing me to easily feel as if we are spiraling out of control.

Is it not a communication problem but more a balance of power problem?

Money is not an issue for me and having an affair while married is not something I'm interested in. Living a life with my match who can both handle and enhance my life is what I'm after.

Are all women after that? Is MNG's wife looking for that and so shifting focus on other men? Money?

I am beginning to wonder if in these cases the woman really feels a sense of unhappiness and begins trying to fill these with whatever is available and misinterpreting her longings leading to self destruction of the relationship. The underlining theme being a sense of insecurity and instability and the need to have that re-secured coupled with a complete lack of recognition as to what would re-establish it within herself.


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> Are all women after that? Is MNG's wife looking for that and so shifting focus on other men? Money?
> 
> I am beginning to wonder if in these cases the woman really feels a sense of unhappiness and begins trying to fill these with whatever is available and misinterpreting her longings leading to self destruction of the relationship. The underlining theme being a sense of insecurity and instability and the need to have that re-secured coupled with a complete lack of recognition as to what would re-establish it within herself.


I understand that. What I don't understand is why MNG's W did this when apparently she was _in_ a secure, stable relationship. I'm willing to call it a female mid-life crisis, but I've noticed this pattern in a lot of older women, in which they achieve a certain level of security and stability and then seem, for no explicable reason, to destroy the very thing that they say they crave. That's what's really mystifying a lot of us dudes. Any insights you have would be appreciated.


----------



## Trenton

IanIronwood said:


> I understand that. What I don't understand is why MNG's W did this when apparently she was _in_ a secure, stable relationship. I'm willing to call it a female mid-life crisis, but I've noticed this pattern in a lot of older women, in which they achieve a certain level of security and stability and then seem, for no explicable reason, to destroy the very thing that they say they crave. That's what's really mystifying a lot of us dudes. Any insights you have would be appreciated.


A mid-life crisis is the same for both sexes somewhat isn't it?--A questioning of our own mortality and whether or not we are achieving what it is we want within the lives we've created. In doing this it's easier to place blame than take responsibility for what we have contributed. It's easier to find lacking rather than appreciate what we have. 

A man that limits a woman's growth in the relationship quite by mistake might mistakenly think that his wife woke up one day and felt dissatisfied with him, even though she was slowly walking away in her mind and felt unable to share this confusing journey with him and he was not the catalyst for the journey but rather viewed as a hindrance to the journey. The unintentional lack of support or connection with their partner happened slowly, the mundane and ordinary creating a desire for more, the lack of a sense of purpose creating an unconscious mission to find new purpose. This creates a slow sadness in the realization that too much of self was given up to the family or career, etc. leaving an emptiness that the woman tries to fulfill. It might be positive or negative behaviors that manifest from this. From the forums, it's obvious that negativity and blame shifting is common place when the behaviors are negative.

This is really vague guesswork on my part.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton,

It's actually "informed" guesswork.

To return to the subject of MisterNiceGuy for a minute:

His wife sounds like she's been a tyrant. Of course, he avoided conflict for years and boxed himself in.

When she found herself unhappy, she blamed him.

He's been struggling to break his accommodative streak. Their "dance" - such as it is - has her making decisions, him feeling lucky to have her - and doing damned near anything to please her.

Of course, she sees him as a doormat and blames him for her lack of an interesting relationship and life.

She doesn't have any housework or chores left to do, so she seeks the sizzle and excitement of "newness". The children in her basement (from the other thread) see in TOM the guy who "gets her". They discuss music, art, whatever. He's "such a great listener".

Of course he is! He's got nothing on the line.

He's in that beautiful zone where she fitness tests MisterNiceGuy and they laugh about him failing. Should she end up with TOM, she'll start fitness testing HIM. Then the fun really starts, as she has brought all her "basement children" into this new relationship and she will find that TOM's response to those emotional exiles will be strikingly similar to MisterNiceGuys. And - she will still be unfulfilled.

Only this time, she's helped destroy her children in the process.

We truly are our own worst enemies.

The more we try to "fix" the more of those over-the-top emotions we invest in the outcome. The more desperately we seek the cooperation/agreement from those closest to us. AND - the more resentment we feel when we don't get it.

This is the formula for finding upstanding moral people in affairs.

It happens.

I know it does.

I've done it too.


----------



## MEM2020

Ian,
I find your post below nothing short of astonishing. What is stable about a relationship where:
1. The main provider starts seriously shirking his provider role
2. Your male partner is frequently dishonest with you (either overtly lying, or not telling you things that they should) because they are afraid to have conflict

That does not sound stable to me. 

Remember that post you made - got a lot of the females here up in arms? It was about the evolution of society and the larger and larger pools of potential mates that men had access to. 

I think perhaps you might want to go revisit that post. Ask yourself how that hypothetical "guy" wins the heart of a good woman? It sure as hell isn't by being a mediocre provider and afraid of "upsetting" her. 

I am starting to wonder whether you want it both ways Ian. I can't respect that mindset. 

MNG allowed this marriage to destabilize. Making excuses for him isn't helpful to him or anyone else reading this thread. 



IanIronwood said:


> I understand that. What I don't understand is why MNG's W did this when apparently she was _in_ a secure, stable relationship. I'm willing to call it a female mid-life crisis, but I've noticed this pattern in a lot of older women, in which they achieve a certain level of security and stability and then seem, for no explicable reason, to destroy the very thing that they say they crave. That's what's really mystifying a lot of us dudes. Any insights you have would be appreciated.


----------



## Conrad

"Secure and stable" is in the eyes of the beholder.

"I'll never leave you and am lucky to have you" sounds secure.

I had a spouse like that.

I don't anymore.



MEM11363 said:


> Ian,
> I find your post below nothing short of astonishing. What is stable about a relationship where:
> 1. The main provider starts seriously shirking his provider role
> 2. Your male partner is frequently dishonest with you (either overtly lying, or not telling you things that they should) because they are afraid to have conflict
> 
> That does not sound stable to me.
> 
> Remember that post you made - got a lot of the females here up in arms? It was about the evolution of society and the larger and larger pools of potential mates that men had access to.
> 
> I think perhaps you might want to go revisit that post. Ask yourself how that hypothetical "guy" wins the heart of a good woman? It sure as hell isn't by being a mediocre provider and afraid of "upsetting" her.
> 
> I am starting to wonder whether you want it both ways Ian. I can't respect that mindset.
> 
> MNG allowed this marriage to destabilize. Making excuses for him isn't helpful to him or anyone else reading this thread.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> Ian,
> MNG allowed this marriage to destabilize. Making excuses for him isn't helpful to him or anyone else reading this thread.


I think it was both of us, but I take a lot of blame for letting it get to his point. Not paying enough attention to my wife and my behavoirs around our relationship. Although, I blame her for seeking an emotional connection outside our marriage, I can almost sympathize with her because I wasn't there.

As the saying goes... Happy wife, happy life!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Things are seem to be trending in a postiive manner. Went out her best friend's for dinner the other night. Had dinner with her and her husband and all our kids. Like old times. My wife was very jovial and fun to be with. She did get pissed at me for a remark I made about something I can barely remember, but she got her back up and pulled me aside and told me what a jerk I was. I told he to cut it out and we'd talk about it in the morning and that seemed to quiet her down. She seems to be more forgiving lately.

We had a long discussion this morning about our roles in our marriage and how we let things get so out of whack. She being the Alpha more masculine role and me being the beta/feminine role and how to reverse those. It's been a struggle for both of us because it's so entrenched. She talked more about how she doesn't think we can ever find a new dynamic in our relationship, but I have to say that she is way more positive and engaged than before. Even though we are talking a lot, she said, that we are lacking that physical component. The touching, hugging, kissing, sex stuff... She said we'll never get this relationship on track if we don't have the physical part of it. Of course I agreed, but took sex out of the equation a long time ago. She actually hugged me!

So, she goes off to church and comes back and she's been crying. The sermon really hit on forgiveness and she was a wreck when she came back. She starts telling me that she want to be more forgiving and that she wants to be more physical. She wants to move back into our bed and start down the road to try and create a more physical relationship. She also said she has put almost nothing into this relationship over the past few months and she wants to change that. She said that I had done all the work to try and save our relationship and she wanted to change that. She hugged me again!

I had to go off to work and she has been texting me all day and she is going to make dinner!

I hear you guys loud and clear. I will not be sucked into anything right away. I need to keep my distance, at least on the sex end of things for a while. I still have many trust issues with what she did so I'm just going slowly...


----------



## MEM2020

Hold on a second. IF she wants to have sex - make it a night she won't ever forget. We are all saying the same thing. Don't let her move back into bed - platonically. But if she wants to have sex with you - DO IT FCS. And don't ask - if she comes into your bed tonight - give her an edgy vibe and then bring it on. If she rejects you - just shrug and say with edge but a normal volume "HUGE MIXED MESSAGE TODAY - STOP JERKING ME AROUND". And then get up and go sleep somewhere else. 

Be dominant in bed because she WANTS that. 

You are at the edge of what might be the first big step in recon. Stay calm and pay attention. 

Frankly if it was me - unless she comes home with a huge shut down vibe I would get grab her push her against a wall - give her a hard kiss and say "Meet me in bed in 1 hour." And then go take a long shower and get in bed. And if she doesn't come - tomorrow I would hit her with the same mixed message comment and then drop a conversational deep freeze on her. She wants to see some strength and risk taking. 





MisterNiceGuy said:


> Things are seem to be trending in a postiive manner. Went out her best friend's for dinner the other night. Had dinner with her and her husband and all our kids. Like old times. My wife was very jovial and fun to be with. She did get pissed at me for a remark I made about something I can barely remember, but she got her back up and pulled me aside and told me what a jerk I was. I told he to cut it out and we'd talk about it in the morning and that seemed to quiet her down. She seems to be more forgiving lately.
> 
> We had a long discussion this morning about our roles in our marriage and how we let things get so out of whack. She being the Alpha more masculine role and me being the beta/feminine role and how to reverse those. It's been a struggle for both of us because it's so entrenched. She talked more about how she doesn't think we can ever find a new dynamic in our relationship, but I have to say that she is way more positive and engaged than before. Even though we are talking a lot, she said, that we are lacking that physical component. The touching, hugging, kissing, sex stuff... She said we'll never get this relationship on track if we don't have the physical part of it. Of course I agreed, but took sex out of the equation a long time ago. She actually hugged me!
> 
> So, she goes off to church and comes back and she's been crying. The sermon really hit on forgiveness and she was a wreck when she came back. She starts telling me that she want to be more forgiving and that she wants to be more physical. She wants to move back into our bed and start down the road to try and create a more physical relationship. She also said she has put almost nothing into this relationship over the past few months and she wants to change that. She said that I had done all the work to try and save our relationship and she wanted to change that. She hugged me again!
> 
> I had to go off to work and she has been texting me all day and she is going to make dinner!
> 
> I hear you guys loud and clear. I will not be sucked into anything right away. I need to keep my distance, at least on the sex end of things for a while. I still have many trust issues with what she did so I'm just going slowly...


----------



## IanIronwood

MEM11363 said:


> Ian,
> I find your post below nothing short of astonishing. What is stable about a relationship where:
> 1. The main provider starts seriously shirking his provider role
> 2. Your male partner is frequently dishonest with you (either overtly lying, or not telling you things that they should) because they are afraid to have conflict
> 
> That does not sound stable to me.
> 
> Remember that post you made - got a lot of the females here up in arms? It was about the evolution of society and the larger and larger pools of potential mates that men had access to.
> 
> I think perhaps you might want to go revisit that post. Ask yourself how that hypothetical "guy" wins the heart of a good woman? It sure as hell isn't by being a mediocre provider and afraid of "upsetting" her.
> 
> I am starting to wonder whether you want it both ways Ian. I can't respect that mindset.
> 
> MNG allowed this marriage to destabilize. Making excuses for him isn't helpful to him or anyone else reading this thread.


Oh, I take your point, and I wasn't asking about MNG's wife in particular as much as the number of women in their late 40s, early 50s who seem to have everything they ever wanted suddenly go _nuts_ and start convincing themselves that they're miserable. I understand the dynamic between MNG and his wife, and I'm not excusing her behavior (or his), just trying to understand the mindset that I've seen undermine a marriage far too many times. Sorry if I confused you.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> Ian,
> I find your post below nothing short of astonishing. What is stable about a relationship where:
> 1. The main provider starts seriously shirking his provider role
> 2. Your male partner is frequently dishonest with you (either overtly lying, or not telling you things that they should) because they are afraid to have conflict
> 
> That does not sound stable to me.
> 
> Remember that post you made - got a lot of the females here up in arms? It was about the evolution of society and the larger and larger pools of potential mates that men had access to.
> 
> I think perhaps you might want to go revisit that post. Ask yourself how that hypothetical "guy" wins the heart of a good woman? It sure as hell isn't by being a mediocre provider and afraid of "upsetting" her.
> 
> I am starting to wonder whether you want it both ways Ian. I can't respect that mindset.
> 
> MNG allowed this marriage to destabilize. Making excuses for him isn't helpful to him or anyone else reading this thread.


MEM,

I respect you for saying that! 

Sometimes us women are put into spot where we have to pull the load. We want our men to be the providers and pull the load, we just want to be supporters, but unfortunately a lot of women have to pull their own load and the families' load. 

Men ask why my wife's sexual desire is gone. Here I tell all these men clearly, not pulling your load for your family, your wife's sexual desire disappears fast unless she is stinky rich and she has a handsome man who is twenty years younger than her. 

We are not talking about materialistic women, we are talking about women who want their husbands to be responsible and protect them. 

I am a traditional woman, I respect men who provide, I don't respect men who need their wives to pull the load. Our genes tell us that we respect men who can look after their families! 

I leave men who need women to pull the load. 

Women can be helpers, but not hunters!


----------



## Neil

MEM11363 said:


> Hold on a second. IF she wants to have sex - make it a night she won't ever forget. We are all saying the same thing. Don't let her move back into bed - platonically. But if she wants to have sex with you - DO IT FCS. And don't ask - if she comes into your bed tonight - give her an edgy vibe and then bring it on. If she rejects you - just shrug and say with edge but a normal volume "HUGE MIXED MESSAGE TODAY - STOP JERKING ME AROUND". And then get up and go sleep somewhere else.
> 
> Be dominant in bed because she WANTS that.
> 
> You are at the edge of what might be the first big step in recon. Stay calm and pay attention.
> 
> Frankly if it was me - unless she comes home with a huge shut down vibe I would get grab her push her against a wall - give her a hard kiss and say "Meet me in bed in 1 hour." And then go take a long shower and get in bed. And if she doesn't come - tomorrow I would hit her with the same mixed message comment and then drop a conversational deep freeze on her. She wants to see some strength and risk taking.




:iagree:


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Last night we talked... 

She doesn't want to break up the family. Family is more important to her than anything. She will do whatever she needs to keep us all together (I was wondering when it would finally dawn on her!). To that end she wants a more physical relationship. She is moving back into our bed tonight! She has been hugging me and touching me. She started calling me "honey" again yesterday. Haven't heard that in months. Then when I was brushing my teeth last night she sat down on the toilet and peed. We all know this is the ultimate sign that your woman is comfortable with you! Again, something I haven't seen in 3-4 months. It's all still so new and weird how fast it's coming on. I predict I we could have sex within a month the way things are going. I understand I need to run the sex and romance departments and that means to more aggressive in initiating than I ever was before!


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Last night we talked...
> 
> She doesn't want to break up the family. Family is more important to her than anything. She will do whatever she needs to keep us all together (I was wondering when it would finally dawn on her!). To that end she wants a more physical relationship. She is moving back into our bed tonight! She has been hugging me and touching me. She started calling me "honey" again yesterday. Haven't heard that in months. Then when I was brushing my teeth last night she sat down on the toilet and peed. We all know this is the ultimate sign that your woman is comfortable with you! Again, something I haven't seen in 3-4 months. It's all still so new and weird how fast it's coming on. I predict I we could have sex within a month the way things are going. I understand I need to run the sex and romance departments and that means to more aggressive in initiating than I ever was before!


I'm very appreciative of how much of a big step this is, MNG, and I'm loathe to downplay it's importance. A voiced commitment to the family is certainly a vital issue to this process. 

But I would also point out that a commitment to the family is not the same as a commitment to you, personally. She may be "willing to do anything", but that doesn't equate to being able to restore in her heart the feelings that she once claimed she had for you in your marriage, feelings which she now denies ever having in the first place. No matter how hastily or sincerely that admission may have been, it couldn't help but hurt you and dissolve your trust for her. While your eagerness for a return to normalcy is understandable, and your desire to end the stress that has dominated your life for weeks now is strong, until that trust and commitment to you is rebuilt somehow, a reconciliation is going to be a temporary band-aid at best.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying that you should proceed with utmost caution. In your position (and this is me, and I've been accused of being too Alpha) I would suggest that resuming marital relations before you've re-established your relationship as "boyfriend/girlfriend" would be premature. The potential to quickly fall back into old patterns will be profound, even if you do initially take a more aggressive posture. 

Even if she's utterly contrite and ready to re-commit, I don't think enough water has passed under the bridge nor has she changed her spots adequately to see a return to your bed as a true victory, no matter how good it feels. Though the other gentlemen may disagree, I feel that establishing some firm ground rules and conditions before resuming any kind of sexual relationship with her will better serve your long-term interests, and that her proximity to you in an intimate but non-sexual way (sleeping next to each other) will do more to undermine your resolve than it will to repair your relationship.

Indeed, the more Alpha response would be to insist upon a renewed sexual relationship, under different terms, before allowing her to return to the place of honor in your bed. Re-establish the personal commitment before you reward her with a resumption of status as wife. But that could just be my take.

Gentlemen? Any comments?


----------



## MEM2020

*There are 3 kinds of people*

1. Those that 'make' things happen
2. Those who 'watch' what happens
3. Those who 'ask' "what happened"

WTF is this "I predict we will be having sex in a month" bs?

FCS your W is DYING for you to step up and just take her. Don't talk about it. Just do it. Tonight. She keeps talking about sex, she KEEPS TALKING ABOUT SEX. And she has chosen to move back into your bed. How much more of a "clue" do you need?

Take a risk - show some balls. Don't "ask for permission" to initiate. 

Buddy - are you really this beaten down?




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Last night we talked...
> 
> She doesn't want to break up the family. Family is more important to her than anything. She will do whatever she needs to keep us all together (I was wondering when it would finally dawn on her!). To that end she wants a more physical relationship. She is moving back into our bed tonight! She has been hugging me and touching me. She started calling me "honey" again yesterday. Haven't heard that in months. Then when I was brushing my teeth last night she sat down on the toilet and peed. We all know this is the ultimate sign that your woman is comfortable with you! Again, something I haven't seen in 3-4 months. It's all still so new and weird how fast it's coming on. I predict I we could have sex within a month the way things are going. I understand I need to run the sex and romance departments and that means to more aggressive in initiating than I ever was before!


----------



## IanIronwood

*Re: There are 3 kinds of people*



MEM11363 said:


> 1. Those that 'make' things happen
> 2. Those who 'watch' what happens
> 3. Those who 'ask' "what happened"
> 
> WTF is this "I predict we will be having sex in a month" bs?
> 
> FCS your W is DYING for you to step up and just take her. Don't talk about it. Just do it. Tonight. She keeps talking about sex, she KEEPS TALKING ABOUT SEX. And she has chosen to move back into your bed. How much more of a "clue" do you need?
> 
> Take a risk - show some balls. Don't "ask for permission" to initiate.
> 
> Buddy - are you really this beaten down?


Then again, if you ARE going to do it, then MEM's method is probably your best bet. Tear it up. Go Conan on her a$$. Make her make the pig noise. And don't ask for permission. If she "isn't ready" then she can sleep downstairs until she is . . . but _no equivocation_. Once you've committed to a course of action, don't back away. You might be wrong about it, but do not be uncertain. The LAST thing you need to do is show anything other than supreme confidence in yourself.

One way or another, half-measures are not an option. And MEM is correct, she obviously WANTS sex. She's probably craving it for many, many reasons right now, not the least of which is the fact that it would be a symbol of normalcy. But don't let her USE sex against you. Ever again. That's the A-Bomb. If she doesn't understand that that's inherently disrespectful, then she isn't ready. 

_"Do . . . or not do. There is no 'try'."_ -- Master Yoda.

Why yes, yes I did just use a Star Wars quote on you. If it works on my six-year-old, maybe it will inspire you, trite as it may be. But if you're gonna do her, DO HER. Make her feel it, but don't ask her pretty please. Either way, it's going to be a litmus test for other aspects of your relationship, so pay attention.


----------



## Conrad

*Re: There are 3 kinds of people*



MEM11363 said:


> 1. Those that 'make' things happen
> 2. Those who 'watch' what happens
> 3. Those who 'ask' "what happened"
> 
> WTF is this "I predict we will be having sex in a month" bs?
> 
> FCS your W is DYING for you to step up and just take her. Don't talk about it. Just do it. Tonight. She keeps talking about sex, she KEEPS TALKING ABOUT SEX. And she has chosen to move back into your bed. How much more of a "clue" do you need?
> 
> Take a risk - show some balls. Don't "ask for permission" to initiate.
> 
> Buddy - are you really this beaten down?


:iagree:


----------



## F-102

Agree with the others: tread warily. There could be serious consequences if you "take her".


----------



## MEM2020

*A personal story*

MNG,
I had one short cycle like you are dealing with. I handled it "in concept" like I describe below. Took less then a day to come to positive closure. 

As for you. 

Screw your head on tight. You need to have a powerful plan B in case she turns this into a major league fitness test. And she may do it in a very female non-confrontational manner. It may go like this:
You: Starting to kiss her in bed or next to the bed
Her: "I am not sure I am ready for this"
You: Make eye contact and say "you are" and go right back to kissing her and push her down on the bed - pin her arms down over her head and keep kissing her until SHE is kissing you back even harder

Don't talk - and don't persuade. She has been saying:
- "I need sex"
- "I need you to show leadership"
- "I am all in"
- "I am coming back to our bed"

She will NEVER give you a brighter green light than that. 

If she truly resists - for real - and you will know if that happens:
- Stop and back up 
- Don't speak - not one word - and don't listen to whatever crazy bs she throws your way. Walk in the closet and throw some clothes in a suitcase and walk out of the bedroom with it and go sleep somewhere else. No matter what she does - absent dragging you back to bed for hot monkey sex - do not say any words. Your actions will say plenty. 

I think it is likely you may need to do a cycle like this with her. If you can't pull this off - my guess - you don't have what it takes to lead the marriage out of the seesaw madness that is going to tear it apart. If you can pull it off - you should be fine. She does want it to work. She just needs to see the strength that you need to go and find. 






IanIronwood said:


> Then again, if you ARE going to do it, then MEM's method is probably your best bet. Tear it up. Go Conan on her a$$. Make her make the pig noise. And don't ask for permission. If she "isn't ready" then she can sleep downstairs until she is . . . but _no equivocation_. Once you've committed to a course of action, don't back away. You might be wrong about it, but do not be uncertain. The LAST thing you need to do is show anything other than supreme confidence in yourself.
> 
> One way or another, half-measures are not an option. And MEM is correct, she obviously WANTS sex. She's probably craving it for many, many reasons right now, not the least of which is the fact that it would be a symbol of normalcy. But don't let her USE sex against you. Ever again. That's the A-Bomb. If she doesn't understand that that's inherently disrespectful, then she isn't ready.
> 
> _"Do . . . or not do. There is no 'try'."_ -- Master Yoda.
> 
> Why yes, yes I did just use a Star Wars quote on you. If it works on my six-year-old, maybe it will inspire you, trite as it may be. But if you're gonna do her, DO HER. Make her feel it, but don't ask her pretty please. Either way, it's going to be a litmus test for other aspects of your relationship, so pay attention.


----------



## Neil

*Re: A personal story*



MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> I had one short cycle like you are dealing with. I handled it "in concept" like I describe below. Took less then a day to come to positive closure.
> 
> As for you.
> 
> Screw your head on tight. You need to have a powerful plan B in case she turns this into a major league fitness test. And she may do it in a very female non-confrontational manner. It may go like this:
> You: Starting to kiss her in bed or next to the bed
> Her: "I am not sure I am ready for this"
> You: Make eye contact and say "you are" and go right back to kissing her and push her down on the bed - pin her arms down over her head and keep kissing her until SHE is kissing you back even harder
> 
> Don't talk - and don't persuade. She has been saying:
> - "I need sex"
> - "I need you to show leadership"
> - "I am all in"
> - "I am coming back to our bed"
> 
> She will NEVER give you a brighter green light than that.
> 
> If she truly resists - for real - and you will know if that happens:
> - Stop and back up
> - Don't speak - not one word - and don't listen to whatever crazy bs she throws your way. Walk in the closet and throw some clothes in a suitcase and walk out of the bedroom with it and go sleep somewhere else. No matter what she does - absent dragging you back to bed for hot monkey sex - do not say any words. Your actions will say plenty.
> 
> I think it is likely you may need to do a cycle like this with her. If you can't pull this off - my guess - you don't have what it takes to lead the marriage out of the seesaw madness that is going to tear it apart. If you can pull it off - you should be fine. She does want it to work. She just needs to see the strength that you need to go and find.



*Round of Applause*

I am a betting man, and I bet he pulls this off and tonight, he gives her some action

GO FOR IT MAN!!!


----------



## MEM2020

*Ugh!!!!!!!!*

F-102,
If MNG can't differentiate between "no - I mean I am not sure I mean I am anxious - I mean - that feels good - I mean yes, Yes, YES, YES!!!!, do NOT STOP"

and 
"NO - I MEAN IT"

If he really can't tell the difference after 15 years with his W, then no one on this board can help him. In fact no one in this world can help him. 

Because the first "no I mean yes" - really means - "Man up or step off". And for a woman who has repeatedly complained about a lack of sex - this WILL be a deal breaker for her. 

I am fairly confident that at this point - when she starts one of her monologues about the lack of "long list of complaints", she wishes he would just kiss her and rip her clothes off. 

Beta males talk WAY too much - even more so when they are anxious. 



F-102 said:


> Agree with the others: tread warily. There could be serious consequences if you "take her".


----------



## eagleclaw

And make this sex like nothing you too have had before. Be more edgy, more aggressive. Get her hot and bothered and pull her hair a little. Hold her arms down. Tease her then take her - REPEATEDLY.

Nip her neck, be a lion holding down his tigress. Is she seriously resists do just as MEM suggested. Also, if it has been a while you might be smart to pop one off yourself before this because you don't want to rock her world for all of 14 seconds........ just sayin.


----------



## Neil

eagleclaw said:


> Also, if it has been a while you might be smart to pop one off yourself before this because you don't want to rock her world for all of 14 seconds........ just sayin.


:rofl:

however

:iagree:


----------



## IanIronwood

Neil said:


> :rofl:
> 
> however
> 
> :iagree:


Yep. Plan ahead. Do it right. No BS, no discussion, just do it. Either she's ready or not, and this will help you learn which it is. 

But if she doesn't . . . _you don't sleep next to her_. That's a reward for a wife in good standing. Sleeping platonically next to her is basically handing your testicles back to her. Either she comes all the way back, or she stays on the couch. And if she does legitimately refuse, leave instantly and let her dwell on her failures. But don't say a fracking word.


----------



## eagleclaw

word up!

(did I just say that?)


----------



## OOE

*Re: There are 3 kinds of people*



MEM11363 said:


> 1. Those that 'make' things happen
> 2. Those who 'watch' what happens
> 3. Those who 'ask' "what happened"
> 
> WTF is this "I predict we will be having sex in a month" bs?
> 
> FCS your W is DYING for you to step up and just take her. Don't talk about it. Just do it. Tonight. She keeps talking about sex, she KEEPS TALKING ABOUT SEX. And she has chosen to move back into your bed. How much more of a "clue" do you need?
> 
> Take a risk - show some balls. Don't "ask for permission" to initiate.
> 
> Buddy - are you really this beaten down?


:iagree:

You can't ask. If you do, you've failed again.

You can't be timid. Again, failure.

You don't even need to "warm her up." That makes it about what she wants. She's told you again and again she wants sex. It's not about forcing her or anything like that. It's that this time, your actions have to be of a man taking what he wants.

MEM gave one scenario above. Here's another:

Walk right up to face her, and put your hand around her to the small of her back. Pull her right against you, then walk forward until she's against a wall, kissing her firmly as you move. Take her clothes off with purpose - not sweetly or slowly. Act like a man who WANTS his wife.

Don't ask what she wants to do. You move her where you want her and you set the pace. Don't ask her how it is for her. Again, this time isn't about pleasing her. She'll be pleased enough that she's finally with the man she's been wanting to show up.

You don't have to push the boundaries into things you've never done, nor do you have to be rough. It's really about taking complete charge of the encounter. That's what she needs, and more importantly, that's what you need to learn to be able to do.


----------



## eagleclaw

I should have added a disclaimer to my post that you definitely do NOT want to hurt her. You pull the hair for effect only. Not hard enough to cause any real discomfort. You are doing these things to show purpose, desire, and to be bold. You are instroducing something new for the excitement factor - But certainly not in any kind of abusive way.

Thanks for pointing that out OOE.


----------



## IanIronwood

eagleclaw said:


> I should have added a disclaimer to my post that you definitely do NOT want to hurt her. You pull the hair for effect only. Not hard enough to cause any real discomfort. You are doing these things to show purpose, desire, and to be bold. You are instroducing something new for the excitement factor - But certainly not in any kind of abusive way.
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out OOE.


I think the theme here is that there is a difference between you compellingly initiating sex, and having her offer sex _to_ you. By taking the initiative and holding it, you establish dominance and maintain your posture. By waiting for her to offer it because she's finally "ready" is to tacitly admit that she still controls the relationship.

Another helpful hint: don't use many words. Try to communicate by body position and action alone. (_Ouch! You're on my hair! _is permissible). But if you start talking about your feelings or whether or not either of you are ready, you lose the initiative and the point of the exercise. And if your initiation is met with an attempt to segue into a relationship discussion, abort and withdraw. Strong, silent, compelling. Get into the primal "tiger blood" mode if you have to.


----------



## F-102

Does she like to get revenge? By"serious consequences", do you think she will let you have your way with her, and then next thing you know, your looking at 10 to 20 for raping your wife?


----------



## MEM2020

That is why you limit yourself to "kissing" until you get reciprocity. 

If she was looking to go down "that path" she could take him there any night of the week. Any W can. Absent bruises and scratches - and with a polygraph in front of them - this is a very rare behavior. 

Being lightly to moderately aggressive with a W who has been citing the lack of sex as a possible cause for divorce - is completely within the bounds of "normal and legal" behavior. 

That said - no more than kissing and holding arms over head until reciprocity. That is well shy of the "bright line" of over aggressive behavior. 



F-102 said:


> Does she like to get revenge? By"serious consequences", do you think she will let you have your way with her, and then next thing you know, your looking at 10 to 20 for raping your wife?


----------



## LonelyNLost

MNG! What an improvement! This thread plays like a novel. You are a hero. Hoping your night went well.   

If you don't feel comfortable initiating sex, definitely go in for a cuddle and feel it out. You'll be golden pretty soon.


----------



## Conrad

MNG,

Lots of karma headed your way!


----------



## Neil

Come on MNG...

the suspense is killing me


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Neil said:


> Come on MNG...
> 
> the suspense is killing me


maybe he is...



> Does she like to get revenge? By"serious consequences", do you think she will let you have your way with her, and then next thing you know, your looking at 10 to 20 for raping your wife?
> 
> 
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> or still in bed
> 
> sounds like things may be going ok but...
> i would still be very weary
Click to expand...


----------



## Neil

I am really routing for the guy,

I do hope its the "2nd Option" for his sake


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Neil said:


> I am really routing for the guy,
> 
> I do hope its the "2nd Option" for his sake


yes, me too.
hope he got to tear that a$$ up but good. :smthumbup:

he does seem to be taking his sweet time getting back, eh?


----------



## eagleclaw

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> yes, me too.
> hope he got to tear that a$$ up but good. :smthumbup:
> 
> he does seem to be taking his sweet time getting back, eh?


Maybe he is severely dehydrated today?


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

eagleclaw said:


> Maybe he is severely dehydrated today?


that would be a good reason for not showing up yet.

maybe he knows he has a few people here waiting for his return and he is enjoying the waiting game


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

hope everything did turn out well for him


----------



## IanIronwood

Kinda curious, myself.


----------



## eagleclaw

Yup, me three.


----------



## bunnybear

*Re: There are 3 kinds of people*



MEM11363 said:


> 1. Those that 'make' things happen
> 2. Those who 'watch' what happens
> 3. Those who 'ask' "what happened"
> 
> WTF is this "I predict we will be having sex in a month" bs?
> 
> FCS your W is DYING for you to step up and just take her. Don't talk about it. Just do it. Tonight. She keeps talking about sex, she KEEPS TALKING ABOUT SEX. And she has chosen to move back into your bed. How much more of a "clue" do you need?
> 
> Take a risk - show some balls. Don't "ask for permission" to initiate.
> 
> Buddy - are you really this beaten down?


sorry this sounds mean but i agree


----------



## MidwestDave

MisterNiceGuy said:


> So here is the new plan. I'm going to let her meet this guy. She has a counselor session right afterward and I'm out until late that night. Then we have a joint meeting with the therapist on Friday (which she BTW she said she told the therapist all about this). If I don't hear from her about this meeting by the therapy session on Friday, I will brng it up forcefully and ask for full disclosure and go from there. I don't want to know the gory details, but I think I have a right to know how deep it went.
> 
> That's the plan right now and it could change any minute!


Sometimes I wish the problem with my marriage was simple infidelity. You might have some shot at dealing with that.

But when you have gotten to the stage of mutual contempt and stonewalling due to basic conflict of values and goals, to me that's a LOT harder.


----------



## IanIronwood

(*crickets*)

Um . . . guys? You think she went nuts and killed him?


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

thats what i was thinking, or at least jail?


----------



## eagleclaw

yes an update is seriously overdue.


----------



## Neil

All I can think for some weird reason is that she has got him on a "mem and his wife" style situation where she is litterally banging his brains out (obviously different reasons).

I sure hope to god that nothing has gone wrong here.


----------



## AFEH

MNG did say he’s to leave the forum alone for a while. I think that’s a wise choice, he got a lot of information to take in while at the same time he had the changing dynamics going on with his marriage.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I don't know if I can match the drama of the past few weeks anymore. I guess this is where the rubber meets the road.

She has been reading the Marriage Builders website quite a bit and sharing it with me. Lots of stuff about Radical Honesty and Joint Agreement and Undivided Attention... All stuff I read months ago when we were first having our current issues, but if she wants to get on board really do the hard work for this marriage, I'm all for it. She has said repeatedly she is "all in" and it feels like it.

The main thing is that it's going to take time, weeks or months for the thaw to continue. I can only push so hard on her, if at all. I can only be myself and have no attachment to outcome. I would like nothing more than for me to snap my fingers and start having a raucous sex life and a fulfilling marriage, but that ain't going to happen without some therapy and time. The problems here run deeper than I thought, but she is willing to work on this to see if there is a relationship we can build from the rubble of our marriage.

This goes back all the way to the beginning of our relationship. She apparently settled for a "nice guy" that was stable, honest, fun and a bread winner. Now she tells me that she really wasn't all that sexually attracted to me from about our third date. She said we have never had that deep, emotional connection that she's had with other men before me. She picked up my NMMNG book the other day and realized that some of sexual problems where stemming from me and not from her and that made her open her eyes. She always thought our crappy sex life was her problem, not mine. Really it was both of our problems, but she thought it was all her.

It's been years and years since we've had that marriage where you can talk about everything and anything and it just flows out naturally, but I think we are there now. The other thing is the physical piece. This is something I just can't rush. Even though she mentioned sleeping in the same bed, it still hasn't happened yet, but I am going to force the issue today. As it says in the NMMNG book, "ask for what you want". At the same time, I am taking sex off the table (ala the sex moratorium from the NMMNG book) for at least three months or more. We haven't had sex in about six months, so what is a few more months if we really want to see if this marriage is worth it. I think without that pressure for sex, we can see if this is a good fit or not.

We are basically starting from scratch. It's like I don't know her. It's like I'm falling in love with her again. So basically, we are here together working it out. I'm still manning up and she is trying to step back from the alpha role she has played for so many years. We have a great therapist who is on top of all of this stuff.


----------



## Conrad

>>She picked up my NMMNG book the other day and realized that some of sexual problems where stemming from me and not from her and that made her open her eyes<<

Nothing changes but the date.


----------



## eagleclaw

Yup, it's still your fault MNG - and she's still there and your not sexual. Your not hearing us. You will likely enjoy more of the same, and more on again off again as you are only partly manning up.


----------



## Neil

Conrad said:


> >>She picked up my NMMNG book the other day and realized that some of sexual problems where stemming from me and not from her and that made her open her eyes<<
> 
> Nothing changes but the date.


:iagree:

Oh dear oh dear.

That's just handed her a massive power trip on its own.

Prepare to be used and abused all over again


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

eagleclaw said:


> Yup, it's still your fault MNG - and she's still there and your not sexual. Your not hearing us. You will likely enjoy more of the same, and more on again off again as you are only partly manning up.


I am sexual. I'm walking a tightrope right now between my needs and wants vs. her recent EA. Who really wants to have sex when they are on such a roller coaster right now. I'm going to bring this up with the counselor tomorrow. This is the number one thing outstanding, the sex piece. That and my confidence.

Also, she has mentioned that she wants to see more confidence in me. Something I'm working on every second that I'm awake. It permeates everything I do, business, home, sex. It's easy for you guys to sit back and throw out these things and another to put them into action. The confidence thing is my biggest obstacle right now.


----------



## Conrad

In my experience, nothing builds confidence like hot passionate sex.

End of story.

MNG - for your assembled fans here....

I think it would be instructive for you to return to this full thread and visit each one of your posts.

I want you to count the number of times your wife has blamed you for the issues in your marriage.

What you have here is your wife "discovering" - yet ADDITIONAL - reasons to blame you for her affair.

With each discussion you've had, I hear each positive outweighed by the "reason" for her behavior being something you "did" or something you "did not do".

Brother - that's no way to live.


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I am sexual. I'm walking a tightrope right now between my needs and wants vs. her recent EA. Who really wants to have sex when they are on such a roller coaster right now. I'm going to bring this up with the counselor tomorrow. This is the number one thing outstanding, the sex piece. That and my confidence.
> 
> Also, she has mentioned that she wants to see more confidence in me. Something I'm working on every second that I'm awake. It permeates everything I do, business, home, sex. It's easy for you guys to sit back and throw out these things and another to put them into action. The confidence thing is my biggest obstacle right now.


Confidence is a huge factor in these things.

Sex is fine in it’s place. But. It can get in the way of getting things sorted between you. It doesn’t really sort the underlying issues in the relationship. It’s hard to love a woman you feel some bitterness and resentment towards. It’s like trying to love someone you’re angry with and have some dislike for.

I think you are far better off taking yourself away somewhere for a long weekend or a week. Just time by yourself without pressures from those around you. Time to consider and reflect on what has happened in your life and to “recentre”. And make up your mind about “stuff”.

Bob


----------



## eagleclaw

You want to get things going in the right direction. She has been baiting you and provoking you endlessly. She also gave you a roadmap. She wants you to man up, she wants more physical sex, she wants you to me more alpha, she wants you to be more confident.

So - take a viagra and follow all the advice you were given about "taking" her in that fashion. If she lightly balks, tests you keep going. If she flatly refuses in no uncertain terms do as mem said and stop, leave and calmly tell her to quit yanking your chain. 

You NEED to do these things. This "NICE" guy that wants to let her "grow" and "fix" things etc is the same guy that bored the sh!t out of her and got you into this mess. Try something different. Fake it till you make it. 

Remember Albert Ensteins definition of insanity: *Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...*


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> In my experience, nothing builds confidence like hot passionate sex.
> 
> End of story.
> 
> MNG - for your assembled fans here....
> 
> I think it would be instructive for you to return to this full thread and visit each one of your posts.
> 
> I want you to count the number of times your wife has blamed you for the issues in your marriage.
> 
> What you have here is your wife "discovering" - yet ADDITIONAL - reasons to blame you for her affair.
> 
> With each discussion you've had, I hear each positive outweighed by the "reason" for her behavior being something you "did" or something you "did not do".
> 
> Brother - that's no way to live.



I think the sex thing is a little of the chicken and the egg. No confidence = no sex. No sex = no confidence. I have to stop thinking about it and just do it the next time the opportunity arises. Could be tonight, could be next week. I just need to break the ice so to speak... Time to try something different for sure.

Wife and I have been down that talk about the affair. She is remorsefully sorry about it and does not blame me for it at all anymore. Maybe I missed sharing that with you guys, but she had a complete break down this past week and blamed herself for the whole thing and doesn't want to talk about it anymore.


----------



## AFEH

MNG, this is from http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-marriage-relationship-programs/18671-180.html.

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behaviour.

Your wife is rewriting history. Why? Because she wants you to feel guilty which takes the focus off of her bad behaviour.

You decide what your truth is in these matters.

Bob


----------



## eagleclaw

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I think the sex thing is a little of the chicken and the egg. No confidence = no sex. No sex = no confidence. I have to stop thinking about it and just do it the next time the opportunity arises. Could be tonight, could be next week. I just need to break the ice so to speak... Time to try something different for sure.
> 
> Wife and I have been down that talk about the affair. She is remorsefully sorry about it and does not blame me for it at all anymore. Maybe I missed sharing that with you guys, but she had a complete break down this past week and blamed herself for the whole thing and doesn't want to talk about it anymore.


That's great news, and as it should be. But let her work through it... it's not your problem to fix. And I understand the confidence and internal struggle you are battling but you just have to do it (that's why I suggested the viagra - on less thing to worry about.)

Again though - you mention "when the situation presents itself". WRONG MINDSET.

If you want sex tonight - create the environment. Barring a kids getting the flu, or kids nightmare, or her period - you decide, create the oppertunity and go for it. There is no "when the oppertunity arises...." Your still waiting for her to lead you on this.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I think the sex thing is a little of the chicken and the egg. No confidence = no sex. No sex = no confidence. I have to stop thinking about it and just do it the next time the opportunity arises. Could be tonight, could be next week. I just need to break the ice so to speak... Time to try something different for sure.
> 
> Wife and I have been down that talk about the affair. She is remorsefully sorry about it and does not blame me for it at all anymore. Maybe I missed sharing that with you guys, but she had a complete break down this past week and blamed herself for the whole thing and doesn't want to talk about it anymore.


What do you blame her for?

What does SHE need to do?


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> What do you blame her for?
> 
> What does SHE need to do?


Way to go. But that's not NICE!

Bob


----------



## Trenton

I wouldn't normally advocate this but MNG why don't you have sex with your wife without regard for her or at least that's how you should go into it.

Don't worry about confidence, you need none. Don't worry about whether you cum in two seconds or she doesn't cum. Just allow her in your bed, look at her shape and form and enjoy.

No pressure, no confidence, just release.

I'm of course not suggesting you rape or hurt her, just that you have some healthy, selfish sex for yourself.

I believe that even if she doesn't enjoy the act of an orgasm for herself, the re-establishment of intimacy to you will be huge for you both to move forward. You can work on good, mind blowing orgasmic sex later.

Me? I think the dudes here all have your best interests at heart but are a little hard on ya.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> I wouldn't normally advocate this but MNG why don't you have sex with your wife without regard for her or at least that's how you should go into it.
> 
> Don't worry about confidence, you need none. Don't worry about whether you cum in two seconds or she doesn't cum. Just allow her in your bed, look at her shape and form and enjoy.
> 
> No pressure, no confidence, just release.
> 
> I'm of course not suggesting you rape or hurt her, just that you have some healthy, selfish sex for yourself.
> 
> I believe that even if she doesn't enjoy the act of an orgasm for herself, the re-establishment of intimacy to you will be huge for you both to move forward. You can work on good, mind blowing orgasmic sex later.
> 
> Me? I think the dudes here all have your best interests at heart but are a little hard on ya.


Us?

We're a bunch of harmless little fuzzballs.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Us?
> 
> We're a bunch of harmless little fuzzballs.


Hmmmm much like Gremlins, eh?


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Me? I think the dudes here all have your best interests at heart but are a little hard on ya.


Mothering’s smothering. And for mothers to do. I wonder sometimes if the NGs have been smothered by their mothers. Nothing compares to a straight talk with a man, a no holds bared, tell it like it is talk.

Bob


----------



## IanIronwood

AFEH said:


> Mothering’s smothering. And for mothers to do. I wonder sometimes if the NGs have been smothered by their mothers. Nothing compares to a straight talk with a man, a no holds bared, tell it like it is talk.
> 
> Bob


I have to agree. No one ever did a dude a favor by sugar-coating the truth. In a situation like this, it's in his best interest to have some brutal honesty slap him in the face a few times, because it's all too easy to fool yourself into thinking everything is okay when it is not.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> MNG, this is from http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-marriage-relationship-programs/18671-180.html.
> 
> Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behaviour.
> 
> Bob


Just when you think things are getting better, she throws a curve ball and says it's over let's get the divorce lawyers. I'm outta here. I can't deal with this anymore. She has lead me on so much it's just painful. Talking about her new job and how she's going give the family support and what my role in our new relationship is. Hugging and kissing and all that crap over the past couple of weeks. She told me all that means nothing. 

So I printed up the separation agreement that I wrote about six weeks ago and gave it to her. Not happy, but I told her that this is it. I'm tired of being jerked around like this. Divorce or be with me. She said everything is great, except our relationship. Friend, business, house, kids and she likes it all but can't stand being with me. (except as a friend) She has misled me for weeks and and dumps this on me and I'm done with it. I can't deal with her anymore. Is she bipolar? For Christ sakes!


----------



## IanIronwood

Dude. That so sucks. I was worried she was setting you up for something like this. Get her to sign it quick and get her the hell out. What she's been doing is no less than abuse.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

IanIronwood said:


> Dude. That so sucks. I was worried she was setting you up for something like this. Get her to sign it quick and get her the hell out. What she's been doing is no less than abuse.


That's the way it feels to me too. if she was/is serious about splitting up she completely misled me. She even had me write up a plan of what our resposibilities would look like when she got a new job. She was quoting from the marriage builders website two days ago! It's possible she hooked up with the OM again but I doubt it. Not sure what spurred this but if she wants a divorce she's got one. I have needs and she ain't filling them. Got a lot to talk to the MC today but it could be the last time I see him. What's the point?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> if she wants a divorce she's got one. I have needs and she ain't filling them. _Posted via Mobile Device_


The straw that broke the camel's back...

Yes, as trenton said, we may look a bit harsh on you, but this is exactly the attitutude you need(ed) to adopt past, present and future.

Sorry to read this BTW, I truly thought that one day I would have logged onto here and saw you explode and even go "man up on steriods".

Never mind, you have a different game to play now, and you should make that as one sided as possible... YOUR SIDE, and YOUR SIDE ONLY


----------



## AFEH

You know I really don’t go along with this Alpha/Beta stuff as far as us humans are concerned. They are terms taken from the animal kingdom. Say in the Lion Kingdom, if the Alpha Female does not submit to the Alpha Male the Alpha Male kills her! If a lion cannot dominate the Alpha Female, she sees him off. It’s all a matter of gene selection and which male can protect the lionesses cubs from marauding males.

But how to get away from Alpha/Beta? It’s all to do with Leadership, strength of conviction and being a very good provider. The human male must know what they want to do with their life and exactly how they are going to be the provider. And then he takes into account what his wife wants to do and does everything he can to ensure that his wife leads a happy and fulfilling life. He does this by inspiring her to greater things and by some manipulation so that both husband and wife get what they want out of their lives. And if he has chosen a good wife she will support him in his endeavours to be the best provider he can be.



MisterNiceGuy said:


> She even had me write up a plan of what our responsibilities would look like when she got a new job. _Posted via Mobile Device_


MNG your wife in the above is being the Leader in your marriage. But how many times did she tell you she wants you to be the leader, she wants you to take the reigns?

You are so used to sitting back and being a “follower”. To some of us Leadership comes easy, we’re natural born leaders. Maybe the very best thing you can do for yourself is to take a leadership training program.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

She is resentful of 15 years of marriage that wasn't the best. Sex that has sucked for several years. All of the other parts of our lives she really likes and said we could live separately in the same house for many years and raise our kids together if I wanted too. I said that is plain stupid. She needs to move out. She has not really opened herself up to repairing this marriage. I know she wants me to step up and lead the marriage, but part of that is standing down on her part which she doesn't want to do.

That's all water under the bridge. I showed her the separation agreement last night. She said it was OK with her, but she has no intent of saving the marriage. I said we need to move on to divorce then. Then the kids came into our room and that was the end of the evening. I feel asleep watching TV and woke up around midnight and she was snuggled up on the couch next to me! I was pissed though and went to bed... I still think she has not fully embraced a divorce yet when she tells me things like I mentioned above about living together but not sleeping in the same bed. She has said several times that we have been "too hard on each other over this". The MC has said that she tends to over react to situations that come up. The MC called her "intense". Her first response is always that she wants a divorce and is moving out then backs off after she's given it some thought. It's very possible that she'll wake up this morning with a smile on her face and tell me she overreacted again. 

I really want to take control of this situation and the only way I can think of is to start down the road to a divorce. It would ruin my business because when we have to split up the household and everything she would get half of the business and I run the business out of my house and it's critical for the business because of our location that I keep the house. But if we split up, I simply can't afford the mortgage on my own...


----------



## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I really want to take control of this situation and the only way I can think of is to start down the road to a divorce. It would ruin my business because when we have to split up the household and everything she would get half of the business and I run the business out of my house and it's critical for the business because of our location that I keep the house. But if we split up, I simply can't afford the mortgage on my own...


I think this is why MEM proposed you put up a business plan without her. You can still do that.

Your actions now will speak louder than any words can.

DOn't buy that waking up with her snuggled, she is still playing you.

Proceed down the divorce route, stay strong, and I still think she will crumble if you stick to it, but you need to be at the point (and its starting to come across in your tone) that you aren't scared of losing her.


----------



## IanIronwood

AFEH said:


> You know I really don’t go along with this Alpha/Beta stuff as far as us humans are concerned. They are terms taken from the animal kingdom. Say in the Lion Kingdom, if the Alpha Female does not submit to the Alpha Male the Alpha Male kills her! If a lion cannot dominate the Alpha Female, she sees him off. It’s all a matter of gene selection and which male can protect the lionesses cubs from marauding males.
> 
> But how to get away from Alpha/Beta? It’s all to do with Leadership, strength of conviction and being a very good provider. The human male must know what they want to do with their life and exactly how they are going to be the provider. And then he takes into account what his wife wants to do and does everything he can to ensure that his wife leads a happy and fulfilling life. He does this by inspiring her to greater things and by some manipulation so that both husband and wife get what they want out of their lives. And if he has chosen a good wife she will support him in his endeavours to be the best provider he can be.
> 
> 
> 
> MNG your wife in the above is being the Leader in your marriage. But how many times did she tell you she wants you to be the leader, she wants you to take the reigns?
> 
> You are so used to sitting back and being a “follower”. To some of us Leadership comes easy, we’re natural born leaders. Maybe the very best thing you can do for yourself is to take a leadership training program.
> 
> Bob



You misunderstand the connotations for Alpha and Beta. They have less to do with rank than they do with active and passive modes of behavior.


----------



## IanIronwood

Neil said:


> I think this is why MEM proposed you put up a business plan without her. You can still do that.
> 
> Your actions now will speak louder than any words can.
> 
> DOn't buy that waking up with her snuggled, she is still playing you.
> 
> Proceed down the divorce route, stay strong, and I still think she will crumble if you stick to it, but you need to be at the point (and its starting to come across in your tone) that you aren't scared of losing her.


I wouldn't even talk to her without an attorney present. Start packing up her stuff. Even if it ruins the business, you have to move on. Friends? Rommates? That ship has sailed. She's been emotionally abusive, deceitful, and opportunistic. She has ruined your trust in her and perhaps in all women. She has done nothing that wasn't selfishly motivated. The fact that you are allowing her to spend even one more night under your roof amazes me.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

IanIronwood said:


> You misunderstand the connotations for Alpha and Beta. They have less to do with rank than they do with active and passive modes of behavior.


I don't know. I think he has it right. At least in my situation. My wife needs a strong leader to give her boundaries and set the tone of this marriage. I have not been that since early on, especially when she started to out earn me many years ago and I took a backseat. (Believe me, I was no slouch in the money department either when I had a corporate job. We had lots of $$$$)


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Neil said:


> I think this is why MEM proposed you put up a business plan without her. You can still do that.
> 
> Your actions now will speak louder than any words can.
> 
> DOn't buy that waking up with her snuggled, she is still playing you.
> 
> Proceed down the divorce route, stay strong, and I still think she will crumble if you stick to it, but you need to be at the point (and its starting to come across in your tone) that you aren't scared of losing her.


Unless she has crumbled this morning, this is where I am headed to the lawyers. I also have an appt with the MC today and he has been very good at nailing down the moment by moment situation. His advice is usually right on.

She has said too many times that she wants to keep the family together and can't imagine breaking us up. I think she will crumble too, but she is strong willed. We shall see... I'm finally getting to the point where I simply don't care anymore. She had taken me to the precipice too many times and I'm numb to it now.


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## F-102

Women in this situation are like a creeping tide on a beach (said the same thing to disbelief in his threads)-they're all sweet and compliant, then they with draw, then they come back to you again, with a little more commitment, then they withdraw again, just like a creeping, incoming tide.
But, the issue ain't really her-the issue here is how much more can YOU take? And I really think that you are like Popeye:
"That's alls I can stands, 'cause I can't stands no more!"


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## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know. I think he has it right. At least in my situation. My wife needs a strong leader to give her boundaries and set the tone of this marriage. I have not been that since early on, especially when she started to out earn me many years ago and I took a backseat. (Believe me, I was no slouch in the money department either when I had a corporate job. We had lots of $$$$)


I don’t know what I would have done if my wife had earned more money than me. If she’d earned enough to cover the mortgage, pay all the bills, for food, holidays etc. etc. (which is what I did) I think I’d have become lazy, idle. I think I would have lost my ambition and my drive and would have become very much a passenger in life. Maybe I’d even have started doing the washing and ironing, shopping, cooking, cleaning etc. to put at least some value into the relationship.

But I’m not that type of person who would have ever gone there because I would have been afraid of not matching up to what I thought being a man was all about.

But what do you do when you have got yourself into that situation? I would see it as a challenge. The very first challenge I’d take on is to be financially independent. I’d start with a blank piece of paper and at the top of it I’d write “Financial Independence” or something like that. And then I’d get to work.

Bob


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## Jellybeans

Neil said:


> Proceed down the divorce route, stay strong, and I still think she will crumble if you stick to it, but *you need to be at the point (and its starting to come across in your tone) that you aren't scared of losing her*.


It's the only way.


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## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> I don’t know what I would have done if my wife had earned more money than me. If she’d earned enough to cover the mortgage, pay all the bills, for food, holidays etc. etc. (which is what I did) I think I’d have become lazy, idle. I think I would have lost my ambition and my drive and would have become very much a passenger in life. Maybe I’d even have started doing the washing and ironing, shopping, cooking, cleaning etc. to put at least some value into the relationship.
> 
> But I’m not that type of person who would have ever gone there because I would have been afraid of not matching up to what I thought being a man was all about.
> 
> But what do you do when you have got yourself into that situation? I would see it as a challenge. The very first challenge I’d take on is to be financially independent. I’d start with a blank piece of paper and at the top of it I’d write “Financial Independence” or something like that. And then I’d get to work.
> 
> Bob


Bob, I don't know if you've read everything I've written, but I now run a company with my wife. We are squeaking by with no wiggle room. Hence, her need to find a job outside of the business. But now if we get a divorce, the business will have to be split up and I am unemployable right now because I've been out of the tech business (18 years in IT before started this business which not related to IT at all). I've been out for 7 years so my skill set is very rusty. I will figure out something. I always have. I'm pretty resourceful when it comes to making money.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

F-102 said:


> Women in this situation are like a creeping tide on a beach (said the same thing to disbelief in his threads)-they're all sweet and compliant, then they with draw, then they come back to you again, with a little more commitment, then they withdraw again, just like a creeping, incoming tide.
> But, the issue ain't really her-the issue here is how much more can YOU take? And I really think that you are like Popeye:
> "That's alls I can stands, 'cause I can't stands no more!"


This is EXACTLY what is happening. Every time we get to the divorce talk, she backs off a couple of days later and is more dedicated to making the marriage work. I suppose if my skin is thick enough, which it's not, eventually she would stop talking divorce and actually make the marriage work out. I think I need to push her towards divorce to really make her think about what she wants to do whether she stays or not. She even told me last night she has been wishy washy...


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## AFEH

IanIronwood said:


> You misunderstand the connotations for Alpha and Beta. They have less to do with rank than they do with active and passive modes of behavior.


I wasn’t talking about rank. For me Alpha/Beta just does not map into a marriage relationship. Too many connotations with the sometimes brutal animal kingdom. Whereas Leadership/Management/Support does map into a marriage relationship. And those three roles can change depending upon what the task is.

Bob


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## Neil

Can I just offer some advice in the case that she starts saying she didn't mean it (again)...

Stick to the seperation/divorce thing, and don't offer a crumb of you falling back on it.

If you have to though, say its too much to consider after all the too and fro's she keeps doing, and you want space to think it out. So tell her to leave. Let her be on the end of "Begging".

Hyperthetical of course, but seeing what she has done the last few weeks, I wouldn't put ANYTHING past her to try and tease more and more out of you.

You need to stay strong, and not back down on anything


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## Jellybeans

You need to take the lead. Stop letting her dictate this whole thing. There is no greater hell than limbo.

Right now she sees you as a doormat, someone "safe", that she can do whatever she wants and you are still going to be there for her, zero consequences.

Stop playing her game and switch up the rules. 

Take a stand.


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## eagleclaw

Exactly, go back in this thread 10 pages and start following that advice. YOU take the lead. Take the control of the direction of this marriage away from her. You don't have to go straight to divorce. Seperation is great for getting things in order. 

Write it up with her leaving to an apt. You want to date, then stop any unncessessary communication with her. Let her start thinking.. wow - he really means it this time. Let her start worrying and wondering what's going to happen. 

Eventually one of two things will happen. As we have said before - she will suddenly realize what's happenning and panick and try to fix things...... or she will be happier seperated and continue with you down that path. 

Either way, you will have tried everything you can, you will have stood your ground and been strong about it, and you will have your answer.


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Bob, I don't know if you've read everything I've written, but I now run a company with my wife. We are squeaking by with no wiggle room. Hence, her need to find a job outside of the business. But now if we get a divorce, the business will have to be split up and I am unemployable right now because I've been out of the tech business (18 years in IT before started this business which not related to IT at all). I've been out for 7 years so my skill set is very rusty. I will figure out something. I always have. I'm pretty resourceful when it comes to making money.


I’ve read your story MNG from the beginning. You’ve had 7 years in your business? And now you are financially dependent on your wife.

To make things work with your wife, in your business and your marriage, you need to work as a team. But one of the team members has withdrawn, they’ve taken, or they’re trying to take, themselves out of the business and out of the marriage. Is that about right?

Take yourself away somewhere and list all your problems and own those problems. Because as sure as heck if you don’t have a list of problems you wont have any solutions. Your biggest goal is to get to financial independence.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

eagleclaw said:


> Exactly, go back in this thread 10 pages and start following that advice. YOU take the lead. Take the control of the direction of this marriage away from her. You don't have to go straight to divorce. Seperation is great for getting things in order.
> 
> Write it up with her leaving to an apt. You want to date, then stop any unncessessary communication with her. Let her start thinking.. wow - he really means it this time. Let her start worrying and wondering what's going to happen.
> 
> Eventually one of two things will happen. As we have said before - she will suddenly realize what's happenning and panick and try to fix things...... or she will be happier seperated and continue with you down that path.
> 
> Either way, you will have tried everything you can, you will have stood your ground and been strong about it, and you will have your answer.


This is what I am doing today when I get a chance. I have a lot on my plate today, but I'll find time to work up that separation agreement. The hardest thing is trying to get her to leave the house before she finds a job. If it was me that wanted out, I'd leave and find someone to stay with until I get some money but she refuses to do this. She keeps saying when/if she gets a job she is out of here but that is too nebulous.


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## eagleclaw

I understand your difficulty. Your goal is definitely to get her out of the house. Everything will sink in much more if she is removed. However, until that time ... - a legal seperation CAN be valid while still living in the same house. And you might be able to make that work for you a bit. Definately go out and don't tell her what your up to.... not her business any more if your seperated. Don't talk to her, don't be there for her, don't console her. Really really focus on being SEPERATED, INDIFFERENT, and BUSY. Even if you have nothing to do - go out and don't come back until 11PM.

Let her wonder and worry a little bit. DO NOT provide her with explanation as to what your doing or where you were. Your seperated and she no longer has that right. Same for her, don't ask - don't care. She may try and make you suspicious and try to get you to check up on her. You can't do that.

If ultimately she started to dangle a carrot in front of you to try and get things back under her control don't take the bait. NOTHING short of full remorse, apology and heartfelt devotion to the marriage should sway you now. Make her feel the fear and become anxious for awhile. Don't give her the oppertunity to play this waffling game anymore.

However while doing all of this - don't be a pr!ck to her. You have to still appear to be someone she would want to be with. Basically treat her like you would the neighboor. Be polite, and fun around the house but DO NOT treat her as your wife in any way.


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## eagleclaw

Also - look at any interaction you have with her and analyse the context. Think to yourself - is she trying to lead this action or decide our course. Then make a concerted effort to decide what you think the course of action should be and do that. It might be what she is suggesting, and it might be something else. But start making the decisions and lead.

End conversations with her first. Tell her you don't want to talk. Hang up the phone first. You pick the tv show first. You make plans with the kids and execute first, you cook something you and kids enjoy weather she likes it or not.

The only place you don't do this is in regards to shared finances or parental issues. Those are things neither of you should be deciding without discussing with each other first.


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## eagleclaw

What kind business are you in?


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## IanIronwood

Yeah, man. Get her to sign the agreement, then go out and hit the bars tonight. You want confidence? Go flirt with someone who doesn't despise you. Amazing what that does for a man's confidence.

But don't talk to her unless absolutely necessary. Don't engage her. She's your live-in baby-sitter now, and you were recently widowed. Put her in that mental category and start re-constructing your life. But don't engage her in anything that isn't directly related to the kids or the separation. The business? Let her lawyers deal with it. But get her out of the damn house, even if you have to rent her a hotel room for a few nights. It would be worth the cost just to ensure that she understands that there is now no going back.


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## Neil

I just wanted to re-post this anology originally put by "pit of my stomach" in another thread...

It is intended as a way for MNG to understand why people have been/appear to be harsh in their advice (and that some peoples comments may have a little bit of frustration in them)...

Its all about "been their done that", and it's offered in a way that is meant to say to MNG, that the people giving you advice on here, have lived through it, and seen it...

(although this was about a thread where someone couldn't see the other half was in an affair, which turned out exactly to be that)

Enjoy

------------

You know the more I come here, and the more stories I read the sadder I get at times. Once you have been through the brutal trauma of infidelity and your eyes have been opened everything is so clear.. 

Then you see other people come and tell thier stories time after time after time and your sad for them, they just can't see it or they dont want to see it... You see the hurt and confusion in the words that they say, you see whats coming and we try to help but they are so overwelmed by pain, denial, and rationalizations, they just can't listen...

It's like in a dream.. watching confused, scared, blind people wandering out into the road and desperately turning in circles, disoriented and unable to get out of the road... you see the truck coming, you know they are about to get run down and we are all here screaming for them, PLEASE OVER HERE!!! Get out of the road!!! They hear you, but cant understand what your saying... A few are able to stagger away just enough to miss getting completely run down, but most just cant move... Then later, the people that get run down somehow appear on the side of the road with the group... screaming for the next group of blind people that stagger into the road... trying so hard to save them from the pain of that truck... it's coming... 


-----

Very well put I thought....

Now, MNG, show her the door


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## Hicks

These outrageous back and forth's and statements made by your wife are fitness tests designed to show if you are manly or not. Until you own your confidence and future, she will keep doing it.


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## greenpearl

You become confident when you don't want it anymore! 

You become confident when you are detached. 

You become confident when you focus on working on yourself instead of expecting the other one to cooperate. 

Stop mourning for the loss, figure out what to do for the future. Find a different route, walk with confidence. One day you look back, this couple of months is just a short journey in your life!


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## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Just when you think things are getting better, she throws a curve ball and says it's over let's get the divorce lawyers. I'm outta here. I can't deal with this anymore. She has lead me on so much it's just painful. Talking about her new job and how she's going give the family support and what my role in our new relationship is. Hugging and kissing and all that crap over the past couple of weeks. She told me all that means nothing.
> 
> So I printed up the separation agreement that I wrote about six weeks ago and gave it to her. Not happy, but I told her that this is it. I'm tired of being jerked around like this. Divorce or be with me. She said everything is great, except our relationship. Friend, business, house, kids and she likes it all but can't stand being with me. (except as a friend) She has misled me for weeks and and dumps this on me and I'm done with it. I can't deal with her anymore. Is she bipolar? For Christ sakes!


MNG,

"Just when you think things are getting better..."

None of us did.

Let's take a look at that.


----------



## AFEH

greenpearl said:


> You become confident when you don't want it anymore!
> 
> You become confident when you are detached.
> 
> You become confident when you focus on working on yourself instead of expecting the other one to cooperate.
> 
> Stop mourning for the loss, figure out what to do for the future. Find a different route, walk with confidence. One day you look back, this couple of months is just a short journey in your life!


It's the difference between "Me" and "I"? "Me" has all the attachments and dependencies, sadness, joy and happiness. "I" sees those things as transients, they come and they go.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

Haven't had time to sit down with the wife and talk at any length since Thursday night. Had poker night with the guys last night... too much beer...

I'm busy all weekend into the evening both days... so I'm not sure I'm going to have time to sit down and talk with her until Monday at the earliest.

She is wanting to engage me in regular conversation, but I am being not available for the most part until we resolve this staying or leaving thing.

Had a great session with the MC yesterday, wife was very curious about what we talked about but I told her it wasn't her business. Basically he said that my wife is in a rut with this leaving/staying thing. She hasn't fully resolved in her head if she wants to stay or leave. He said that 3.5 months is too short for her to really come to a conclusion considering that she had an affair just a month ago. More time is need for her to completely resolve her stance. BUT he did say that basically I need to confront her on the separation/divorce thing. I need to sit down with her next time we can and ask her to leave. When she starts giving me excuses why she can't leave, start drilling down on those excuses because they are just excuses. He said she is very resourcefull and if she REALLY wanted to leave she would find a way. Something is holding her back from leaving and I need to shine a light on what that is. It's not really money or the kids or the business or whatever. She is conflicted on this relationship and something is still keeping her here. Pushing her to a decision will help her resolve this conflict. What has been going on is that she builds up all this frustration with her inability to resolve this issue then pukes out all this stuff about me and it makes her feel better and she goes on to try and work on the relationship again. I used the tide analogy that someone posted here and he like that. She comes close and wants emotional support and some physical contact and then pukes out all this stuff and the tide rolls out... need to break this cycle... Even if we separate physically, it might be good for her to come to grips with this whole marriage thing. Making her really think about what she wants instead of this limbo thing we are doing now that never fully resolves the issues...

I know you guys have been telling me this for weeks, but the MC was able for me to fully embrace this idea...


----------



## Conrad

Stay with the indifferent. Keep ignoring her. Have fun with your friends.

When she makes you talk, tell her to get out.

The counselor is exactly right.


----------



## disbelief

MNG you are right seems all to familiar. Looks like alot of good advice on your thread, I guess I have some reading to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IanIronwood

MNG, I'm curious: did you have any idea when you and your wife started getting serious that she didn't feel a "spark" or "chemistry"? Did you get the feeling that she was just "settling" at the time, perhaps because she wanted kids? Not trying to ruffle any feathers, but I'm just curious. I've been reading about "late 30s-early 40s reproductive panic" and how women seem to jump into relationships in fear for their biological clocks, and I'm wondering whether and how men are bearing the brunt of that. Any insights into your situation would be helpful.

Meanwhile, stay strong. Poker and beer? Sounds manly. Keep it up. Try to anticipate the fun of your incipient second bachelorhood, and perhaps that will distract you from some of the sting of separation. 

BTW, ran your situation by Mrs. Ironwood, and she concurs that your wife is being entirely selfish and treacherous in pursuit of her own happiness. So if your wife is hoping to take refuge in the Great Sisterhood, she might be supremely disappointed in the reception she might receive.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Wife and I have been going different directions the past couple of days so I haven't had time to have a talk about all this stuff yet. Soon though... she has been pretty calm and collected when I have seen her.



IanIronwood said:


> MNG, I'm curious: did you have any idea when you and your wife started getting serious that she didn't feel a "spark" or "chemistry"? Did you get the feeling that she was just "settling" at the time, perhaps because she wanted kids? Not trying to ruffle any feathers, but I'm just curious. I've been reading about "late 30s-early 40s reproductive panic" and how women seem to jump into relationships in fear for their biological clocks, and I'm wondering whether and how men are bearing the brunt of that. Any insights into your situation would be helpful.


I've talked to my wife and the MC about this issue. Wife still maintains that there was not that passionate spark between us in the beginning and the there might have been some "settling" for a "nice guy". I felt it, but maybe it was a one way street. We have not talked too much about this though. The MC thinks that she is over blowing this aspect of our relationship a little right now given recent events. I maintain that while things weren't white hot passion in the beginning, we had a more sustainable relationship. Could I have done a better job after year 2 to maintain that early passion, sure! Many of us could. At the same time I was turning into a Nice Guy and then the kids came along and then next thing you know 15 years have gone by...



> Meanwhile, stay strong. Poker and beer? Sounds manly. Keep it up. Try to anticipate the fun of your incipient second bachelorhood, and perhaps that will distract you from some of the sting of separation.


Being a bachelor again sounds fun right now... I hated the idea of dating way back when, but now it sounds like way more fun than what is happening now!



> BTW, ran your situation by Mrs. Ironwood, and she concurs that your wife is being entirely selfish and treacherous in pursuit of her own happiness. So if your wife is hoping to take refuge in the Great Sisterhood, she might be supremely disappointed in the reception she might receive.


This is happening on a couple of fronts. The MC keeps pushing her to "**** or get off the pot" as he told me, so she is mulling that over in her head. She really respects him.

Her best friend has counseled since day one that she would be nuts to leave me... good luck trying to find another man like me. My wife has even told me several times that I would be single about 3 months and be swamped by available women. It's very true...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Finally had the talk with her. Started off with a talk before dinner about how she felt we were. She initiated it. She said she was past all the hurt from the previous couple of months including the affair which she keeps saying wasn't anything. I told her she ruined my trust in her, but anyway we keep talking that she is now at the point where she has to decide if she wants to reconcile or not. She wants to wait until she gets a job. The money issue is weighing on her head so much that she can't think about anything else right now. Not even our relationship. I asked her how she thinks money would help our relationship and she said she didn't know, but she wants a couple more months then when she gets a job maybe to the end of the year to figure out if things are good between us. I said OK, if this job thing is weighing so much on your mind we'll see what things look like when you get a job... 

Fast forward a couple of hours and a couple of glasses of wine later. We are listening to music in the living room and the kids are playing on the computer and we are having a great discussion about religion and music and stuff... She puts the kids to bed and comes out and we watch something on the Travel Channel and she starts crying about how she's been denied so many things the past couple of years because money has been so tight, like traveling. Then we start getting into the meat of it. She keeps telling me that there is nothing there and she doesn't want to work on the marriage. I asked her why she is still here and what is keeping her back. She said she wanted to wait until she gets a job. I said that was an excuse and if she really doesn't want to work on it she needs to go. I am not going to be her household support system while she works and there is an empty marriage. She said she can't commit to working on anything until she gets a job. She'd be happy to move out if I could find $5000 for her to move out. She said I should move out, but I told that the spouse that is unhappy and wants to out of the relationship is the one that gets to leave. Things got a little heated so I had to leave and go to bed before I started yelling. I printed off the separation agreement and gave it to her...

She keeps ebbing and flowing. She is so undecided it's crazy. I bet this morning she wants to stay and work on the relationship.


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## eagleclaw

I bet your right, but only as a stall tactic!

You did quite well. But I would push it even further. She has the seperation agreement. So you should consider yourself effectively seperated. No more talk about the relationship. If she tries, shut her down... No more drinking wine, hanging out, talking about religion etc. YOU ARE SEPERATED. Go out on a date. She's jerking your chain continuously. SHUT IT RIGHT DOWN.

You are leaving the door open a little bit so that she can approach you because your hoping she'll back peddle. You need to slam the door closed. If she has a genuine change of heart, you will know it. And at that point you will have the option of opening the door again a little bit, or buying a bigger deadbolt.


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## IanIronwood

Count on it. The fact that she's letting her security issues (money) overwhelm everything else is telling. Right now, you're no more than a meal ticket to her. If she's weeping over travel shows about how much she's been "deprived", when she has kids to show for her last decade's efforts, demonstrates just how far off the path she is. She's feeling entitled, she's let herself get overwhelmed and now just wants someone to take care of her, pamper her, and relieve her of her responsibilities. That's what TOM represented. She says it's about money, but at her age money can only buy security and lifestyle. If she's that obsessed with both of those, then she's allowed her selfishness to take priority over everything else in her life.

This isn't going to get any better. She's having a mid-life crisis, a petty, selfish, what-about-me? midlife crisis. If you're still committed to being a father, then distance yourself from this woman as quickly as possible, because if she is admitting these kinds of feelings then you really can't put any credence into anything she says about wanting to reconcile. At this point, she's revealed her motivations, as petty as they are, and until she has the opportunity to fulfill her selfish impulses then you'll never be able to trust what she says. 

I don't think she's going to get better without a separation, and not separating isn't going to do you any favors. If she's willing to betray her commitment to her family for a week in San Juan and someone to tell her how pretty she is, then she's going to be a weak spot at minimum if she stays, and a potentially treacherous one at worst. So I would insist on the separation at this point regardless of the next couple of waves of half-hearted talks of reconciliation.

Job? Money? Have her put it in writing: you get her $5000, she leaves. Then find some way to pay for it. You could always hock your wedding rings.


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## OOE

Here's what you see: 


She wants to work on things
She pushes away
She's ready to talk
She's done trying
She's getting closer to you
She's ready to divorce
<Pull action>
<Push action>
...


Here's what she sees:

Mister nice guy
Mister aloof
I want to work things out
I want you out
I want to talk through our problems
I'm done talking
<Pull action>
<Push action>
...

But really, this is what's going on...

She pulls, you pull...
She pushes, you push...
She pulls, you pull...
She pushes, you push...
She pulls, you pull...
She pushes, you push...
...and the dance goes on until you're both exhausted.


There are a couple of problems with this. First, you have no idea where she stands. She also has no idea where you stand. You're giving each other mixed signals. With her, it's her words that are sending the mixed messages, with you, it's your actions.

Second and most important, who's leading the dance???

Give your wife consistency and LEAD THE DANCE. It's what she wants. Every time she sees something that tells her you're becoming more alpha, she moves closer then you immediately stop showing her any alpha traits.

Of course she pulls back.

MNG, this is SOOOOO much easier to see from the outside. Trust me, I've been in your shoes. Please, please, please go back and read through this thread from the beginning. Even if you only read your posts, you'll see the cycle you're stuck in. 

After doing that, go back and read MEM's and Conrad's replies. You'll see just how consistent their responses are. Your actions need to be just as consistent.


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## eagleclaw

OOE - Excellent summary. Excellent presentation. Crystal Clear and spot on.


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## Hicks

She's not undecided. She wants to move out but lacks the money to make it sucessful.


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## IanIronwood

Hicks said:


> She's not undecided. She wants to move out but lacks the money to make it sucessful.


Exactly. There is no "dance" anymore, there is only negotiations for withdrawal. There is no "we" anymore, no more relationship. Moving forward under any other preconception is going to be futile. MNG's willingness to lead or not, to be alpha or not, is immaterial at this point. She's made her decision, whether she's admitted it or not, and continuing the pretense that there's a hope for reconciliation at this late stage of the game is foolish. Better to proceed on the assumption that divorce is just over the horizon, and quit making her a factor in any of his decision. The sooner she's gone, the easier that will be.

It's like the old joke about the man who offered a woman a million bucks to sleep with her, and she agreed, and then flipped out when he lowered the offer to $50: "We've settled on what you are, sweetheart, now we're just haggling over the price". She's already declared what she wants, now it's just a matter of putting a bullet in this thing before she can do any more damage.


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## OOE

> She's not undecided.





> I asked her how she thinks money would help our relationship and she said she didn't know, but she wants a couple more months then when she gets a job maybe to the end of the year *to figure out if things are good between us.*





> *She keeps ebbing and flowing*. She is so undecided it's crazy.



Dance.


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## AFEH

It is a dance, a crazy dysfunctional dance. But it takes two to dance and MNG’s still on the dance floor and he's still dancing. He takes himself off the dance floor by doing the 180 http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-marriage-relationship-programs/18671-180.html.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

We talked some more this morning. She is not happy with the wording of the separation agreement. She wants to re-write it. I told her that we can change some things but the gist of it is there. She was not happy with the dating thing. She said that was the furthest thing from her mind and she could probably go the rest of her life with out a man. (But then talks about the need for sex a minute later...)

She said that we need some time apart to figure this out and she wants a separation instead of a divorce because she feels that there is still a chance that there is something, albeit small. So she mentioned something like a six month separation. We'd both continue to talk to the same MC, but separately.

Yes, the dance has to stop. My MC told me the same thing. She and I need to get off this carousel and go our own ways for a while. I would love to lead the dance, but she won't give up control. She even admitted as much. She wants to be the woman in the relationship and wants me to lead, but she can't give up control no matter how hard I assert myself she just gets really pissed off and nasty. She said that if she was the man she would've told me to leave, but that's exactly what I told her last night. I want her out of here and here's the separation agreement. $5000 isn't holding you back from leaving. More cake eating, but now I'm really shutting down the light banter and fun things here. She said both staying and leaving scare the crap out of her. Both feel like a dead end, but she has to choose and I think leaving is her best bet.

Yup no more fun with Mr. Nice Guy... just business and kids. No more sitting around sipping wine and talking about current events and listening to music.

I totally think she is going through a mid-life crisis right now. This really started right after her 50th birthday 3 months ago (has it only been that long?). She become completely selfish and self centered. Everything is about her and how she feels, no giving back to me at all. No soften of the heart. No trying to work things out. She told me last night, she is done with not having fun anymore. The rest of her life is about having fun! Laughing and partying! She said I don't make her laugh enough! She is the one that cuts all the jokes and initiates the fun things. (Not true, but that's the way she sees it right now). This whole thing has been completely about her and I agree with her the affair was an indulgence to see if she could have more fun in her life. She is so self centered as to leave her children and me to go indulge herself. Fine, go and indulge youself for a while... I may or may not be here when she is done...


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## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> It is a dance, a crazy dysfunctional dance. But it takes two to dance and MNG’s still on the dance floor and he's still dancing. He takes himself off the dance floor by doing the 180 http://talkaboutmarriage.com/self-help-marriage-relationship-programs/18671-180.html.
> 
> Bob


Bob, you are right. I've done the 180 and it works and then she softens up and I stop. At what point do you stop the 180? How do I know when she really, really wants to come or leave? I've done the 180 and she has said she wants to work it out and as of a week ago was actively working on the marriage and then I softened up, then she got pissed off again and I did the 180 again for a couple more days and so on and so on...


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## COGypsy

Just out of curiosity--is this separation agreement a legal separation or just a laundry list of things you're both going to supposedly agree to do/not do if you decide to live apart?

If it's the latter, what makes you think it'll be worth the paper it's written on the next time she changes her mind? If you want to protect your rights to the house, the kids, etc., then I'd look seriously into a legal separation or at least the possibility/options depending on where you live. Otherwise, what happens when she just decides not to move out after all? Or that the kids just are just going to stay at her place now? Without a legal agreement, you're going to have to work twice as hard (e.g. pay twice as much) to get the things you're agreeing to now or wanting later.


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Bob, you are right. I've done the 180 and it works and then she softens up and I stop. At what point do you stop the 180? How do I know when she really, really wants to come or leave? I've done the 180 and she has said she wants to work it out and as of a week ago was actively working on the marriage and then I softened up, then she got pissed off again and I did the 180 again for a couple more days and so on and so on...


You can't soften up on the 180 now. Ever. The dance has stopped, and the lights are coming on, now. She's revealed herself for who she is -- and yes, she might be going through a mid-life crisis, but character is how you respond to a crisis -- and she's demonstrated to you and your family who she places a higher priority on, despite promise, pledge, and vow. She wants to "have fun", and being a wife and mother isn't "fun", its a lot of hard damn work. She's done. Let her move on -- no, make her move on, because every moment she drags her feet is a moment she's stealing from you on your way to your own happiness. By monopolizing your time and not allowing you to move on, she's emotionally "cake eating" just as much as she's financially cake eating. She's emotionally thriving on your perceived opposition, because even if she isn't "having fun", at least she's the center and focus of your attention. 

So rip the band-aid off, force her to come to agreeable terms to a legal separation, and expedite the matter. If nothing else, she won't come to value you at all as a father to her children and a friend unless she is seriously faced with losing you. And that's "serious" with a capital Separation. 

And yes, dating should be on the table. It isn't fair of her to make you further suffer for her mid-life crisis. Either she's on the bus, or she's off. And if she's off, then you don't need to wait for her. Start packing boxes and dividing up the CDs, sorting out kids' pictures and wedding memorabilia. But get a final date that allows you to re-start your new life after she so callously and cruelly sabotaged your old one.


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## limeyx

MNG,

I've been following your adventures for a while now, and I actually signed up to this forum because I can't stand to see someone else, especially someone who really does seem like a nice guy, go through what I went through.

Minus the business and the kids, my marriage was very very similar to yours.

My (thankfully) now ex wife had an emotional affair, followed by an actual physical affair (with the same person)

However, there was a very similar pattern of behavior from her after these events

"We dont have that spark anymore"

"You dont love you like you used to"

"I don't know if I can even work on this marriage anymore"

Basically she did everything possible to put this back on me.

Look at what she is really saying. She is putting control of the relationship firmly in HER hands

Who is the one person who gets to determine if "The spark" is there ... HER.

who is the one person who gets to determine if its worth working on. Well, SHE has made that person HER.

She is making you pay for HER poor behavior with manipulation.

I think this is something that is fixed into a person in a lot of ways, and very hard if not impossible to change during the course of a relationship.

To make things worse. And this does NOT make you a bad person, you are responding exactly the way SHE wants.

you are hanging on every single thing she says/does as some reason to hold out hope for this doomed relationship and SHE KNOWS this and consciously or sub-consciously she is using it against you just enough so she can get herself set up to move on and walk out when it sits HER.

Listen to IanIronwood "You can't soften up on the 180 now. Ever. The dance has stopped, and the lights are coming on, now. She's revealed herself for who she is"

Look at this quote (from you)
"Wife still maintains that there was not that passionate spark between us in the beginning and the there might have been some "settling" for a "nice guy". 

Look at the two options
1) She really felt that way from the start.
2) She made that up to "excuse" her behavior and/or put the onus back on YOU to change.

Do you really want to be married to a person like that? DO you really think someone like that is somehow going to change into someone you WANT to be married to ?

"The MC keeps pushing her to "**** or get off the pot" as he told me, so she is mulling that over in her head."

Really ? She really cant "make up her mind" She is USING and MANIPULATING you with everything she does, trying to push all this back onto vauge things that YOU have (supposedly) "done" or behaviors you have that mean YOU feel like you need to fix yourself.

Were and are you perfect ? No, of course not. But this is just pathological behavior from her IMO

My advice would be to RUN dont walk to the divorce lawyer and file ASAP. Dont mess around with legal "separations" that might not be legal or she just wants to "rewrite a bit" (in her favor)

I think this one is done. Protect yourself and the kids and get out while you still have your sanity.

It took me more than 4 years to get over the mental and emotional abuse I suffered in a very similar position over just a 2 year marriage, and the sad thing (for me) was I didn't even see it while i was there until a marriage counselor AND a very good friend told me to RUN to the divorce lawyer.

I think that somehow gave me permission to do so, and I have never looked back since that day.

Sorry If I came out of nowhere sticking my size 9's in but honestly It hurts me to my core to see what you are allowing someone to put you through and if I can help with that, i darn well will.

Nick


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## MisterNiceGuy

I saw message from Bob, but it's not there now... but I went back and reviewed the 180 and I'm pretty much doing all that stuff, except the when she wants to talk about fun stuff and engaging me on that stuff. Otherwise, most of our talking is centered on our marriage, kids, money or business. I haven't said ILY in 2 months. We went out to dinner a couple of weeks ago and actually had a good time, but nothing planned for the future. I just need to shut down that conversation stuff. It's something she said was a huge missing piece in our marriage and I think she craves the attention. So, I will do a 180 for a long time...

Also, I am NOT financially dependent on her. I started this business. We are equal investors in it. She has been a part of it for the past couple of years, but has pulled out almost completely on the day to day activities. I am running the show now. She is looking for a new job because she is bored working for our business and really likes to have money. She only knows how to work at something like 110% and she usually rakes in the cash in her corporate jobs. I have to say she is hesitant about going back into the corporate world because it will consume her 7/24 and this laid back lifestyle that she has now she will look back fondly on...

Limeyx - I hear you and it's slowly sinking in... it's only been three months since this midlife crisis thing started. I can't imagine that this will go on much more than a couple of more months before we divorce or reconcile. In the mean time I need to fire up a match.com account...


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## limeyx

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I saw message from Bob, but it's not there now... but I went back and reviewed the 180 and I'm pretty much doing all that stuff, except the when she wants to talk about fun stuff and engaging me on that stuff. Otherwise, most of our talking is centered on our marriage, kids, money or business. I haven't said ILY in 2 months. We went out to dinner a couple of weeks ago and actually had a good time, but nothing planned for the future. I just need to shut down that conversation stuff. It's something she said was a huge missing piece in our marriage and I think she craves the attention. So, I will do a 180 for a long time...
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> Limeyx - I hear you and it's slowly sinking in... it's only been three months since this midlife crisis thing started. I can't imagine that this will go on much more than a couple of more months before we divorce or reconcile. In the mean time I need to fire up a match.com account...


So why wait and let her hold the cards ? Why not do this on your own terms and hold the upper hand?

Or do you want to come home one night and (say) find the joint account empty and the locks changed ?

The problem I see with your implementation of the 180 (regardless of whether it's the "right" way to handle things or not) is you don't do it 100%.

You still seem to hang on everything she says and does (which believe me i FAR from the worst quality in a person!)

So is it really a 180 if something as simple as her saying hello nicely, or snuggling up on the couch or not fighting during dinner makes you melt ? Or does that just make it easier for her to manipulate the situation and keep the upper hand ?

It seems like you make a stand.
Then she "does something nice" 
You (being a honest, nice and decent person) give her an inch
she takes the proverbial mile (and then some) and then tries to make YOU feel like the bad guy.

Sorry to be so downbeat but I think you either have to go FULL 180 "no nothing unless she 100% commits and fully recognizes what she did" or get out before you go insane.

But I guess my advice is as good as what you spent on it !

EDIT:

Some more advice thats worth the cost of the electronic paper I'm typing on 
I would NOT get the match.com account. This is NOT going to help anything and should you end in divorce almost certainly WILL be thrown back at you (Been in that situation here)

This is your chance to take the high ground. If you really want to try to reconcile, then do it, if not then not but I would NOT advise halfway, this is just going to give her more ammo to lob in your direction *especially* when she "happens to bring it up during counselling" ... dangerous waters ahead !

EDIT 2:
And now you do see you are already making other "excuses and allowances" for her right ? By allowing her to let you think this is a midlife crisis. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

If you are really doing a 180, why are you going out to dinner with her ? That tells her that she can do whatever she wants and you WILL put up with it, and not only that that you WILL still try to win her back.

IMO the ONLY thing that will make her see the consequences of her actions are
- no dinners
- no breakfast/coffee in the morning
- dont drive her to get her car fixes
- no snuggling on couches
- no "I think things are going better because we/she did/said....."
- no driving her to the shop to get her car fixed, 
- take her clothes out of your room and dont let her in (whatever room you pick)

no nothing until she really sees you are serious and sticking to your guns, and that there are real and serious consequences to what she has done and is still doing


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## limeyx

Oh, and while I am on a roll 
All this "she needs a strong man to take he out of this situation" bullcrap.

Bullcrap! It's just an excuse she can use when she screws up/does what she wants/decides to have an affair with someone.

It's the perfect "get out of jail" card so she can then blame you and make you feel bad for not having the strength to "keep her in line"

BS. Thats not a marriage, thats a parent / child relationship, and worse, one where the CHILD is in control of the parent (been there too with my ex)

Now you see how you are going around feeling bad for not being "man enough" to handle her .... it's ALL about her putting this on you.

I say cut your losses, or give her some real consequences and only when she fully commits to fixing things fully and wholeheartedly from that point in time onward, do you proceed.


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## MisterNiceGuy

limeyx - hey I hear you... doing much of what you are saying already. There are no excuses for her behavior. I never said to her it was a midlife crisis, it just feels like one to me. Like I said, I'm already implementing the 180. It's been a slow process to get it right and have the confidence to stand up to her. Now I am there and have been doing it for a while except the one thing about conversation. I think it's slowly sinking in with her that this is not the old husband she can push around.

She actually came to me in tears a couple of hours ago and asked if we could start over again after that episode last night and I said I don't believe that she is serious. That shut her down for a while and she went out to get some groceries and pick up the kids at school.


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## limeyx

MisterNiceGuy said:


> limeyx - hey I hear you... doing much of what you are saying already. There are no excuses for her behavior. I never said to her it was a midlife crisis, it just feels like one to me. Like I said, I'm already implementing the 180. It's been a slow process to get it right and have the confidence to stand up to her. Now I am there and have been doing it for a while except the one thing about conversation. I think it's slowly sinking in with her that this is not the old husband she can push around.
> 
> She actually came to me in tears a couple of hours ago and asked if we could start over again after that episode last night and I said I don't believe that she is serious. That shut her down for a while and she went out to get some groceries and pick up the kids at school.


Well, I sincerely wish you the best I really do and I hope that things work out in your favor (whatever way that is) I fully understand a lot of what you say and it saddens me to see someone else going through very similar stuff to what I did. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She actually came to me in tears a couple of hours ago and asked if we could start over again after that episode last night and I said I don't believe that she is serious. That shut her down for a while and she went out to get some groceries and pick up the kids at school.


Nice! More stuff like that. You have to completely shut her out. She isn't your wife anymore. She's your ex-girlfriend. Remember that.


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## Mike188

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Seems to me MNG that your wife is well and truly conflicted … “confused or worried because she cannot choose between very different ideas, feelings or beliefs, and does not know what to do or believe.

Conflicted because on the one hand she has you and all that goes with you, your children, home, business etc. and on the other she has this dream of being with OM who’s very well off and who she sees as providing her with the lifestyle she now wants. Plus if she stays with you then she’s got to get back on the treadmill to earn the money she wants.

My wife was like your wife, conflicted and ambivalent, but her reasons were different. At the end of the day she was never going to make up her mind one way or another so it came down to me making up her mind for her. I think that’s what you need to do.

But your situation is different to mine in that my wife moved out, left home. And you can’t force your wife out of your home. So what can you do? I think all you can do at this point in time is the 180. But I think you need to be consistent with it. Instead of coming out of it dependent upon your wife’s actions, stay with it for a month or two months.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

Bob, something you said made me do a little searching yesterday and I think my wife has tendencies to have some of a Borderline Personality Disorder. I did some reading and if she has it, not not real bad but some of her actions are very consistent with what I've read. Of course BPD and Nice Guys tend to get together as they feed off each other. But I think we are really coming to grips with what is going on between us. I am starting to set boundaries around our relationship and she seems to be responding. This roller coaster of emotions... (BTW, she is very down today after an up day yesterday. Sitting in her office sulking this morning) Need to talk to the therapist about it Friday...


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## IanIronwood

Found this on the wire this morning, and thought you might find it interesting, MNG, as your wife tries to blame you for your marital problems:


ScienceDaily (Mar. 30, 2011) — Depression erodes intimate relationships. A depressed person can be withdrawn, needy, or hostile -- and give little back.


But there's another way that depression isolates partners from each other. It chips away at the ability to perceive the others' thoughts and feelings. It impairs what psychologists call "empathic accuracy" -- and that can exacerbate alienation, depression, and the cycle by which they feed each other.

Three Israeli researchers -- Reuma Gadassi and Nilly Mor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Eshkol Rafaeli at Bar-Ilan University -- wanted to understand better these dynamics in relationships, particularly the role of gender. Their study will be published in an upcoming issue of Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science.

The study revealed a surprising dynamic: "It's called the partner effect," said Gadassi, a psychology graduate student. She explained: "Women's depression affects their own accuracy. But it also affected their partner's accuracy" -- in both cases, negatively.

Fifty heterosexual couples -- some married, some cohabiting, and together an average of about five years -- participated in the study. First, a questionnaire assessed their levels of depression. Then, their interpersonal perceptions were tested both in the lab and in daily life.

In the lab, the couples were videotaped during a 12-minute conversation in which one sought help from the other. Halfway through, they switched roles: the help-requester became the helper. Afterwards, the individuals watched the tapes and wrote about their own thoughts and feelings and their partners'. The reports were assessed for similarities and differences between each person perceptions and the other's self-descriptions.

In the second portion, the participants made once-a-day diary entries for 21 days, rating a list of negative and positive moods and feelings about the relationship, both their own and their partner's, on a five-point scale. These entries were also assessed for "empathic accuracy."

From both tests, the researchers found that the more depressed the woman was, the less accurately she inferred her partner's feelings. In the daily-life portion, the specificity of depression's effect to negative (vs. positive) feelings was revealed. Men's own depression did not affect their empathic accuracy -- though that is not to suggest that his blues would have no impact on the relationship, just "a different one," says Gadassi.

It was in the daily diaries that the most surprising finding emerged: When women were depressed and their sensitivities dulled, their partners also became less empathic. When women are depressed, the relationship suffers more. After all, mutual understanding is the bedrock of intimacy.

The study has important implications, says Gadassi. It tells us "you can't understand depression without taking account of gender." The findings should inform treatment. "Bringing only the depressed woman into therapy is not enough," she says. "You really have to have both partners in the room."


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## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Bob, something you said made me do a little searching yesterday and I think my wife has tendencies to have some of a Borderline Personality Disorder. I did some reading and if she has it, not not real bad but some of her actions are very consistent with what I've read. Of course BPD and Nice Guys tend to get together as they feed off each other. But I think we are really coming to grips with what is going on between us. I am starting to set boundaries around our relationship and she seems to be responding. This roller coaster of emotions... (BTW, she is very down today after an up day yesterday. Sitting in her office sulking this morning) Need to talk to the therapist about it Friday...


I can’t urge enough caution not to go there with the personality disorders. It’s a complete and utter minefield and one you can really get lost in. We all have some weird things about us, “I’m an ass, you’re an ass” type of thing personality disorders are just a matter of “degree”. So we all have some borderline, narcissism, avoidance or whatever in us.

In UK the definition of sanity is something like “works and pays taxes”. Think about it, works and pays taxes demonstrates an ability to get on with people, to perform at some level of responsibility and reliability etc. Your wife is a high earner over a period of time so it stands to reason she is far from being borderline.

What really counts in these things is the behaviour. And you are responding in exactly the right way by putting boundaries around behaviour you are not willing for one reason or another to tolerate. Of course the other way is to become a codependent … Mr Nice Guy Codependent. You may even chose to wear that hat for a while … just be very conscious that you are so it doesn’t define who you are.

Bob


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## MisterNiceGuy

Ian - My wife has been off and on depressed most of her adult life. She really had it bad after the kids and early menopause then she had it again after she quit her corporate job to work in our business. She was on anti-depressants for a while but got off them because she didn't like the way they made her feel. She is very depressed over her current situation. She can't make up her mind right now and she is really drifting through her days, spending far too much time alone... But this also could be part of the recovery from the affair. We shall see...

Bob - I had the same feeling too. I didn't really want to go there. I saw stuff in there that I could easily labeled something too. We all probably have a little of that Borderline in all of us. I'm just going to let that go and not delve into it anymore. I just need to work on solid boundaries and taking the lead...


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## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Ian - My wife has been off and on depressed most of her adult life. She really had it bad after the kids and early menopause then she had it again after she quit her corporate job to work in our business. She was on anti-depressants for a while but got off them because she didn't like the way they made her feel. She is very depressed over her current situation. She can't make up her mind right now and she is really drifting through her days, spending far too much time alone... But this also could be part of the recovery from the affair. We shall see...
> 
> Bob - I had the same feeling too. I didn't really want to go there. I saw stuff in there that I could easily labeled something too. We all probably have a little of that Borderline in all of us. I'm just going to let that go and not delve into it anymore. I just need to work on solid boundaries and taking the lead...


I understand, but . . . well, my wife works in the pharma industry, and one of her favorite sayings is "they make pills for that."  Then she usually has four or five suggestions about which medications one might take. My point is that her trying to blame you for this is disingenuous; clearly, it's been her depression -- for whatever reason -- that has damaged the relationship. She might not like the way the pills make her feel, but if she prefers how divorce makes her feel to it, then that in and of itself is telling. 

But no matter what her mental health state, that does not absolve her of blame in this. If anything, she should recognize her depression as a factor in her moods and seek to mitigate it by all available means -- not blame her poor husband for how she feels. At this point, I see her as too broken to seriously consider reconciliation, and would advise you that any more "waves" of that feeling be ignored. You can't get her out of this, despite her previous desire for you to "lead her out of it"; in asking for that she was not only abrogating her personal responsibility in the matter, she was setting you up for failure to further increase the blame she could justify laying at your feet. That's abusive: it makes you her emotional punching bag. And since she has clearly stated that she doesn't respect you, then she wasn't going to be willing to follow your lead in the first place.

Keep up the 180, and do not relent. Let her sulk. Let her cry. Let her get all moody and then manic and then moody again, and DO NOT RELENT. Proceed with the separation papers and start making plans for a life without her. If you ignore her long enough, she'll possibly take the hint. But you can't play her game anymore without risking the gains you've made so far, and the goals you're working towards. If she pursues medical intervention for her depression on her own, great. But she's not likely to, and until she does she's going to act as a massive anchor around the neck of your family.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Ian - My wife has been off and on depressed most of her adult life. She really had it bad after the kids and early menopause then she had it again after she quit her corporate job to work in our business. She was on anti-depressants for a while but got off them because she didn't like the way they made her feel. She is very depressed over her current situation. She can't make up her mind right now and she is really drifting through her days, spending far too much time alone... But this also could be part of the recovery from the affair. We shall see...
> 
> Bob - I had the same feeling too. I didn't really want to go there. I saw stuff in there that I could easily labeled something too. We all probably have a little of that Borderline in all of us. I'm just going to let that go and not delve into it anymore. I just need to work on solid boundaries and taking the lead...


Is there nothing about her for which you won't take responsibility?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> Is there nothing about her for which you won't take responsibility?


I don't take responsibility for anything she has done. She is her own person as am I and I'm only responsible for my self.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't take responsibility for anything she has done. She is her own person as am I and I'm only responsible for my self.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't have spent nearly as much time on this thread as I have if I didn't empathize and wish you well.

But, I would strongly advise individual counseling on this issue.

With each turn of the page, you have taken on responsibility for the entire relationship.

Only lately has the sunshine begun to peak through. I'm worried with this talk about "depression", you're going to go right back with your marching orders.


----------



## IanIronwood

Conrad said:


> I wouldn't have spent nearly as much time on this thread as I have if I didn't empathize and wish you well.
> 
> But, I would strongly advise individual counseling on this issue.
> 
> With each turn of the page, you have taken on responsibility for the entire relationship.
> 
> Only lately has the sunshine begun to peak through. I'm worried with this talk about "depression", you're going to go right back with your marching orders.


I don't think so -- he's feeling sorry for her, I'm sure, but I'm detecting enough frustration in his words that I don't think he's likely to backslide so badly. I am curious what the MC says, though.


----------



## Trenton

I hate the end of relationships or when a person turns that corner and realizes they don't care or have to care anymore. I don't know why but it's sad for me to read/see every time.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> But, I would strongly advise individual counseling on this issue.


Conrad, you have been my foil for this entire episode. 

These changes do not come lightly for me, but they are coming. 

I am seeing the same MC as my wife, but separately. We are not in joint counseling yet.

He has 25 years experience and I really respect him.

Still doing the 180 with some positive results, albeit minor. Time will tell... nothing new to report, but no big blowups either...


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Conrad, you have been my foil for this entire episode.
> 
> These changes do not come lightly for me, but they are coming.
> 
> I am seeing the same MC as my wife, but separately. We are not in joint counseling yet.
> 
> He has 25 years experience and I really respect him.
> 
> Still doing the 180 with some positive results, albeit minor. Time will tell... nothing new to report, but no big blowups either...


Hang in there brother.


----------



## IanIronwood

Any updates?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Not much to talk about. Been doing the 180 and there hasn't been a lot of conversation in the past few days other than essential family business. We did have one minor dust up this morning. She was pushing me for conversation. She said that I'm not a very good conversationalist and she has a high need for conversation. (well duh, I've not been engaging her in talk) She said that she could stay in a sexless marriage for years if she wanted and I said that was unacceptable. Then she starts talking about how she's leaving and I said fine! She said as soon as she gets a job she is out of here. She feels trapped here and that she feels damned if we stay together and damned if we split. Then she said we might as well file for a legal separation... I said fine let's start. I got up and left to do some work. 

Then a couple of minutes later she came to me and said that she likes all the changes she's seen in me and that "I'm doing all the right things". She has not been very encouraging in my personal growth and that she needs to encourage me more. That for some reason made her perk up. I can feel her tension. She needs a lot of conversation and talk and this ignoring her is driving her nuts. The MC said that she is giving serious thought to this marriage and that the affair still weighs on her heart but we are getting closer to a resolution because I think I can only do this a couple more weeks. I'm fine either way if she stays or leaves. I'm been to the edge with her so many times that I'm numb to it now. My preference is to keep the family together but the thought of meeting new women and going out for fun time is also very appealling to me right now. 

The ups and downs seem less intense and she recovers more quickly from them. We have been to the brink of arguing about our relationship a few times this past week and she has backed off, which is kind of new. 

I don't know and frankly I'm getting to the point where I don't really care anymore. I have my business to run and my kids to watch over then of course my personal growth.

I think he biggest thing for me is that I'm having a hard time meeting other men to hang out with. I work at home and our retail location but not really with men in a work setting where I can get together for sports or anything... This piece


----------



## Trenton

MNG do you love your wife?

I mean, when you look at her do you think to yourself...I love this woman.

I really wonder if she's the villain you've made her out to be and because of this I'm going to play devil's advocate.

I wonder why men never speak up about the realities of divorce and what it does to the the core of the family and their own sense of intimacy and belonging. Are men happier after man'ing up and losing a woman they love but can no longer live with?

If they still love their wife. I doubt it. The thought of new women and guy friends is appealing and certainly possible but I also doubt it's going to live up to your fantasies. Your wife can go after 50/50 custody and you will spend a lot of time alone wondering how it all trickled down the drain. You might spend time with other women, have sex and wonder why it's not the anticipated wonderment you expected it to be. It will be hard for you to connect fully with another as long as you are still emotionally connected to your wife. Is your neutral, ambivalence real or is it exhaustion?

Be careful here. You push your wife far enough away from you, you discount her feelings and needs in an attempt to 180 something or other and you might end up lonely, sad and wondering what if...

It's just food for thought. The divorce rate is not getting lower but these self help books and techniques are being published and are available in bulk.

A lesson I learned recently and vocalized with my husband is that I would choose him, each and every time. He told me in response that it didn't seem like a choice for him. It always was just me and that's how he wanted it to be. He has resolve and he never questions it. In doing this, vocalizing this to me and coupled with my desire to try to change my own negative behaviors, my insecurities began to end.

Unlike him, I did wonder if there was something better...not specifically another man, but another life. It took me testing and looking inwards to finally look up recently and realize this thought is ridiculous. There is no one ever in my life that has enhanced and accepted me like my husband. I can only imagine the pointless life I would enter into without him. Since I have always admired and enjoyed who he is, and know he is not the norm, I don't think it is possible to meet a better match nor would I want to risk my family to find out.

I could go on, have learned so much recently but I really just wanted to leave food for thought. Be careful the directions you twist and turn towards because you and her are creating your future lives right now. Your choices and actions are not nearly as mundane or inconsequential as you might think.

All of this advice is only based on whether or not you still really do love your wife.


----------



## IanIronwood

So start developing your off-time hobbies. If you don't have any, cultivate some -- it's good for you. Whether it's model airplanes or fantasy football or Civil War reenactment or home brewing or recreational shooting, a book club, a divorce support group -- heck, even figure skating -- then not only are you developing a mentally soothing project that has nothing whatsoever to do with her, but you put yourself in a position to meet other men with similar interests. (OK, maybe not figure skating . . .)

The benefits are manifold: First, it's something you can do other than sitting around worrying about your marriage all the time. Second, you meet other dudes with similar interests. Third, it something that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with your wife. That's not only good for developing a separate identity and interests, it's also good because it's something new that she has no control over, nor any interest in. That being said, don't imagine for a second that she won't be highly jealous of the fact that you are expending time and energy on something totally unrelated to her that is totally out of her control, and meeting people that did not know you as a happy couple. Plus, she'll have to spend more time on childcare if you do this, and that will put her in the position of appreciating you more when you're absent. What's worse? Since she has no involvement with your new friends, your new hobby, etc. she has no idea what you are actually doing, or who you might meet (female wise). That promotes a sense of uncertainty in her mind that will help settle out all of these other issues as she's faced with the reality of a life without you. 

Any time I develop an interest apart from my wife, it drives her crazy. We share an awful lot, but I noticed that her level of interest goes up when my attentions are devoted away from her. 

My advice? Cultivate an interest in Texas Hold'em and find a local friendly poker group that meets regularly. Then arrange for a cheapo Vegas trip "with the guys" in a month or two for some low-stakes cards. That combination will make her head spin. But since she's lost the right to dictate the terms of your time, your friends and your outings, it will make a valuable point. It will also put you in touch with a wellspring of masculine strength that will do you good -- not much more manly than playing poker. Unless you're at a figure skating competition, and then, hey, it's still about the manliest thing you can do.

The advantage of poker is that it teaches you some very valuable non-verbal communication skills, subterfuge, and other male-positive traits. It also tests your nerve without getting you shot at (unless it's a really good poker game). But mostly it puts you in a congenial yet competitive atmosphere with your fellow men, where they know you not as Mr. Nice Guy with the crazy wife, but That Bad-Ass Who Took My Money Last Week. And nothing generates confidence like achievement.

You could go a couple of other ways of course, but Texas Hold'em has the advantage of being easy to learn, cheap (a deck of cards and a couple of bucks for penny-ante) and possessed of a massive group of enthusiasts who are willing to talk about it for hours. Plus, they go to Vegas every now and then. It combines ambition, confidence, self-knowledge, competition, calculation, camaraderie, strategy and forethought into one big package, and you don't have to study for it, invest in it, collect a bunch of expensive crap for it, or pay national dues. Poker is steeped in machismo. And you never get worse at playing, you only get unluckier. And even if you suck, you meet a lot of guys -- and poker players are always willing to be best friends with guys who suck at poker. It the Circle of Life.

And keep up the indifference. She's told you to your face she likes it, even if it's driving her crazy, and the more that she knows that you could care less if you stay together/break up, the better. 

(interesting anecdote: a friend of mine and his girlfriend recently split up, but they're still living together and the status of their relationship is still largely up in the air. She wants him to move out, has stopped having sex with him, but "needs" him to stay, classic Nice Guy cake eating conundrum. While he's hemming and hawing about what to do in the face of her confused state of mind, he had a birthday and got as a present a plum tree. 

Only he refuses to plant it in her yard, and it's DRIVING HER CRAZY. She stares at the thing in its pot every day and is starting to see it as a symbol of what she's about to loose, and it's seriously making her think. She's bugged him to plant it several times, but he refuses, pointing out that he'll just have to re-plant it when he moves at some theoretical future point. It's too nice a tree to leave behind. So she's now confronted with this symbol every day, and it's gnawing at her: as long as it's there, she's in danger of losing a widely acknowledged "great guy"; but if he doesn't plant it soon, it's probably going to die. I think that's a great metaphor for the whole "you don't know the value of something until you lose it" thing.)


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> MNG do you love your wife?
> 
> I mean, when you look at her do you think to yourself...I love this woman.
> 
> I really wonder if she's the villain you've made her out to be and because of this I'm going to play devil's advocate.
> 
> I wonder why men never speak up about the realities of divorce and what it does to the the core of the family and their own sense of intimacy and belonging. Are men happier after man'ing up and losing a woman they love but can no longer live with?
> 
> If they still love their wife. I doubt it. The thought of new women and guy friends is appealing and certainly possible but I also doubt it's going to live up to your fantasies. Your wife can go after 50/50 custody and you will spend a lot of time alone wondering how it all trickled down the drain. You might spend time with other women, have sex and wonder why it's not the anticipated wonderment you expected it to be. It will be hard for you to connect fully with another as long as you are still emotionally connected to your wife. Is your neutral, ambivalence real or is it exhaustion?
> 
> Be careful here. You push your wife far enough away from you, you discount her feelings and needs in an attempt to 180 something or other and you might end up lonely, sad and wondering what if...
> 
> It's just food for thought. The divorce rate is not getting lower but these self help books and techniques are being published and are available in bulk.
> 
> A lesson I learned recently and vocalized with my husband is that I would choose him, each and every time. He told me in response that it didn't seem like a choice for him. It always was just me and that's how he wanted it to be. He has resolve and he never questions it. In doing this, vocalizing this to me and coupled with my desire to try to change my own negative behaviors, my insecurities began to end.
> 
> Unlike him, I did wonder if there was something better...not specifically another man, but another life. It took me testing and looking inwards to finally look up recently and realize this thought is ridiculous. There is no one ever in my life that has enhanced and accepted me like my husband. I can only imagine the pointless life I would enter into without him. Since I have always admired and enjoyed who he is, and know he is not the norm, I don't think it is possible to meet a better match nor would I want to risk my family to find out.
> 
> I could go on, have learned so much recently but I really just wanted to leave food for thought. Be careful the directions you twist and turn towards because you and her are creating your future lives right now. Your choices and actions are not nearly as mundane or inconsequential as you might think.
> 
> All of this advice is only based on whether or not you still really do love your wife.


I can see your point, T, but whether or not MNG loves her, it's clear that _she's not being very loving towards him._ Indeed, her behavior has bordered on the emotionally abusive, and the nookie apparently hasn't been great or frequent enough for a _while_. So while the actuality of greener pastures might not live up to his fantasies or expectations, right now the poor old bull isn't eating ANY grass at all. It wouldn't take much to seem a feast. And it could be rangy old dry grass, and it'd still be better than what's on the menu now. Right now, "loving his wife" in this context essentially would be agreeing to the idea that MNG has no hope of a happy future. Not just "a happy future", but the _hope_ of a happy future. Sometimes the thought of greener pastures can protect you from the kind of despair that debilitates.

And clearly whatever his feelings are, they don't make any difference unless you take _her_ feelings and attitudes into context, too. She's told him point blank that she never felt a "spark" or any "chemistry" for him, which is tantamount to categorically emasculating him. She had a near-miss with infidelity, and it wasn't _she_ who came to her senses and ended it. She's told him _repeatedly_ that she's unhappy and it's _basically his fault_. 

REGARDLESS of whether or not he loves her, she's got some seriously conflicted feelings on him. Sure, he might love her enough to put up with virtually any of her crap, and while that might seem admirable from a romantic perspective it's no more glamorous or worthy than a woman who puts up with domestic abuse in a relationship. Love is great and all, but no matter how much Tina loved Ike, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to imagine how much better she would have been seeking greener pastures earlier on.

I'm all for marital fidelity and making things work, but _not_ at all costs. Especially not where there are children involved. There comes a point where you aren't doing any more than rewarding -- and eventually justifying - the abuse. Regardless of anyone's feelings, there has been a _massive_ breech of trust that demands accountability, and thus far Mrs. MNG hasn't done _anything_ to my mind that even suggests legitimate remorse, much less conciliation. She has sought to avoid accountability for her actions _at every step_. She has consistently tried to lay the blame for her affair at MNG's feet. Far from the unwavering support for your relationship your husband voiced, she has repeatedly undermined even the _hope_ of happiness for him. 

So regardless of whether or not MNG loves his wife, in order to respect himself with her or ANY woman in the future, he _has to hold her accountable,_ even if that means pushing her away. I mean, there's no way she's going to value him until she's faced with the reality of losing him, and that's not something you can fake. If she knows that he's committed to hang on _no matter what_, that not only removes any accountability for her actions, it gives her _carte blanc_ to continue to emotionally abuse him in perpetuity. No matter how much he loves her, that's too high a price to ask him to pay, not when the possibility of finding happiness with some woman who has the sense enough to respect a good man looms so brightly on the horizon.


----------



## Trenton

I get all your points but when a post is led by such fierce supporters of masculine independence without any rounded idea given of what will happen to MNG as a man if he loses his family as he knows it, it's easier to make choices that he may regret.

I do not see any of that in these threads, that's all. I just wanted to typalize it. I know men are supposed to be strong and independent but losing your family and having to accept an entirely new idea of family that may or may not be better is something I think all people should look at when considering divorce.

If he still loves his wife there very well may be better ways to address the problems in their relationship. If he wants to hold on to his family, it's best to include her and her emotions/actions/thoughts in the relationship.

I DO understand the need for him to find himself and become a better man while expressing that his wife is responsible for herself as well, but if this is going to end in a happier marriage and family...I just feel there are better ways to do that than tease and manipulate her emotions.


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> I get all your points but when a post is led by such fierce supporters of masculine independence without any rounded idea given of what will happen to MNG as a man if he loses his family as he knows it, it's easier to make choices that he may regret.
> 
> I do not see any of that in these threads, that's all. I just wanted to typalize it. I know men are supposed to be strong and independent but losing your family and having to accept an entirely new idea of family that may or may not be better is something I think all people should look at when considering divorce.
> 
> If he still loves his wife there very well may be better ways to address the problems in their relationship. If he wants to hold on to his family, it's best to include her and her emotions/actions/thoughts in the relationship.
> 
> I DO understand the need for him to find himself and become a better man while expressing that his wife is responsible for herself as well, but if this is going to end in a happier marriage and family...I just feel there are better ways to do that than tease and manipulate her emotions.


Of course I don't see it as teasing and manipulating her emotions, I see it as failing to emotionally reward her for her continued intransigence. "Holding onto his family", if it means sacrificing any hope of his future happiness in the process, isn't ultimately going to be productive -- quite the contrary. And including her emotions/actions/thoughts in a relationship she's already repudiated and consistently rejected would be tantamount to giving a prisoner a vote on his own parole hearing. She's the one who's wrecked the family they had -- you can't expect him to continue giving her everything she wants and mollycoddling her emotional whims after she's done that. That's neither fair nor prudent.

The grim reality of a break-up is of course on MNG's mind, and he's discussed it. But you need two to tango, and his partner keeps screaming in his face that he's stepping on her feet when it's pretty clear to everyone in the ballroom who's screwing up. You can't build a relationship on that.


----------



## Amplexor

Trenton said:


> .I just feel there are better ways to do that than tease and manipulate her emotions.


If the tactics of "Tough Love", "Manning up" or "the 180" are used to manipulate or tease the relationship is probably doomed. It is little more than game playing, spite or vindictiveness at it's core. The power of these techniques lies in the ability to stand ones ground, set boundaries and help open the eyes of a retreating spouse. How it is applied and how severely it is applied is situation dependent. In using "Tough Love" in the recovery of my marriage I used what I called LMTB-Lite. More heavy handed responses would probably done the marriage further damage. Many here would label my efforts as tepid but given the results, I wouldn't change a thing. It was steady pressure and love over a long period of time that brought my wife back to me. But this was based on our situation, my understanding of her and the dynamics as they used to be. Manning up is not in my signature line, but patience is.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

IanIronwood said:


> So regardless of whether or not MNG loves his wife, in order to respect himself with her or ANY woman in the future, he _has to hold her accountable,_ even if that means pushing her away. I mean, there's no way she's going to value him until she's faced with the reality of losing him, and that's not something you can fake. If she knows that he's committed to hang on _no matter what_, that not only removes any accountability for her actions, it gives her _carte blanc_ to continue to emotionally abuse him in perpetuity. No matter how much he loves her, that's too high a price to ask him to pay, not when the possibility of finding happiness with some woman who has the sense enough to respect a good man looms so brightly on the horizon.


I love her and I will probably always love her. We have spent 17 years together and the last couple haven't been that great, we had some really good times before that. That is why I am suffering through this episode with her. I feel that she deserves for me to put up with this for a while and see her through to the other side. The MC said that us men sometimes need to put up with this stuff for "a season" as he said, while our partner goes through these trials. 

Every time I tell her to pack her bags and leave, she always snaps back. Just like this morning. But, I can only put up with this stuff for a few more weeks. The MC said to give it two more months of complete indifference. That's what I have right now... She said it this morning that she is "indifferent" and "in limbo". As Yoda says, "Do or do not, there is no try" and right now she is putting in the bare minimal effort.

I'm with Amplexor... completely ignoring her seems to push her further away. She does crave attention, but giving it out in small doses seems to be working. She still has a lot to work out in her head post EA still but I need to see some serious warming up or contrition soon or she will move out. I know the thought of leaving her children just sickens her. She has given me so many mixed messages in the past couple of weeks. She just needs to make a decision and soon...


----------



## Trenton

This is all good and I understand it, Amp, and I even see the need for it.

As a woman I'm not contrived and I see his wife similarly because she is giving him exactly what she feels when she feels it. It is chaotic and counter productive but raw and authentic to her. I'm sure if she could snap her fingers and get what she needs she would do so but most likely has no idea what that is. I doubt she knows or recognizes the loss she will face from a loss of a support system 17 years in the making. 

I don't know if this is the case for all women or just me but the books and steps and whatnot although great resources, just as this site is, are not something I would naturally be able to follow. They seem to resonate more with men.

I hope this makes sense.

Divorce is HUGE. Getting to a point where you no longer will stay is HUGE. I think it's important to really consider the reality of the steps we take. I didn't use to feel this way.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton,

As the gender more inclined to "fix" things, tactical guidance speaks to us.

The funny thing is, 90% of it is about "managing yourself". Only the 10% geared to when "in the moment" is about managing the other person, or managing an argument.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Trenton,
> 
> As the gender more inclined to "fix" things, tactical guidance speaks to us.
> 
> The funny thing is, 90% of it is about "managing yourself". Only the 10% geared to when "in the moment" is about managing the other person, or managing an argument.


It's almost comparable to my inability to read maps. I tend to use my intuition to find my way, especially if I already have some idea of the area, and maps look like a foreign language to me. My husband is a huge lover of maps and reads them with ease. It drives me nuts.

I thought it was individualized but it is becoming clear it is more related to gender differences and how different types of resources resonate.

It helps to recognize these differences though because if you can get an understanding on how your spouse thinks or interprets the world around them you'll be better able to communicate, understand and express yourselves.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Trenton said:


> This is all good and I understand it, Amp, and I even see the need for it.
> 
> As a woman I'm not contrived and I see his wife similarly because she is giving him exactly what she feels when she feels it. It is chaotic and counter productive but raw and authentic to her. I'm sure if she could snap her fingers and get what she needs she would do so but most likely has no idea what that is. I doubt she knows or recognizes the loss she will face from a loss of a support system 17 years in the making.
> 
> I don't know if this is the case for all women or just me but the books and steps and whatnot although great resources, just as this site is, are not something I would naturally be able to follow. They seem to resonate more with men.
> 
> I hope this makes sense.
> 
> Divorce is HUGE. Getting to a point where you no longer will stay is HUGE. I think it's important to really consider the reality of the steps we take. I didn't use to feel this way.


A couple of things... I'm sure my wife still hasn't fully analyzed what would be missing from her life if we divorce. I don't know why she can't feel that she could make it work here, but we shall see. She has said it several times, it would destroy her to break up the family, the business and the household. I think that's why we are still all here together for now. I am making sure it's a marriage that we both really, really want. At the same time, I'm asserting myself more. Speaking my mind more. Being myself. Expressing my masculine self more. 

After reading a couple of books on the masculine/feminine thing, I get it now where these outbursts come from. I see them coming. I can process them instead of a knee jerk reaction like I used to do. All these verbalizations about our problems are just that, hot air. She doesn't have any solutions but just pure energy. Like AffairCare has said, I am the lighthouse directing in the wayward ship in the storm tossed sea... Hopefully the ship doesn't break up before it gets to shore.


----------



## Trenton

MisterNiceGuy said:


> A couple of things... I'm sure my wife still hasn't fully analyzed what would be missing from her life if we divorce. I don't know why she can't feel that she could make it work here, but we shall see. She has said it several times, it would destroy her to break up the family, the business and the household. I think that's why we are still all here together for now. I am making sure it's a marriage that we both really, really want. At the same time, I'm asserting myself more. Speaking my mind more. Being myself. Expressing my masculine self more.
> 
> After reading a couple of books on the masculine/feminine thing, I get it now where these outbursts come from. I see them coming. I can process them instead of a knee jerk reaction like I used to do. All these verbalizations about our problems are just that, hot air. She doesn't have any solutions but just pure energy. Like AffairCare has said, I am the lighthouse directing in the wayward ship in the storm tossed sea... Hopefully the ship doesn't break up before it gets to shore.


This is a lovely post. I am really rooting for both you and your wife. I hope you get to go back to the happiness you both once had.


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## MisterNiceGuy

I don't know what to make of this, but tonight after dinner she came to me and said "you won". I can't leave my kids and I'm not leaving, but I'm not happy with you and I'm not having sex with you. We are going to be in this sexless marriage. I said that's not acceptable. We are married or not. Being married means having an emotional and physical connection. So she went around and around about how she is "stuck" and there is no way out of this. I said there is always a way out if you don't know what it is right now, give it time we will figure it out.

I guess the only thing that changed is that she is not leaving. Which is a change from a week ago when she was threatening to leave...


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know what to make of this, but tonight after dinner she came to me and said "you won". I can't leave my kids and I'm not leaving, but I'm not happy with you and I'm not having sex with you. We are going to be in this sexless marriage. I said that's not acceptable. We are married or not. Being married means having an emotional and physical connection. So she went around and around about how she is "stuck" and there is no way out of this. I said there is always a way out if you don't know what it is right now, give it time we will figure it out.
> 
> I guess the only thing that changed is that she is not leaving. Which is a change from a week ago when she was threatening to leave...


She continues to square up with you and you continue to fold.

Time to file.

She has no right to "stay" if she isn't going to be your wife.


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## MEM2020

MNG,
These things are so predictable. Really kills me to see you so unprepared. It is like you live in the tropics and go out every day without an umbrella. 

Have a little fun with her. If it was me my response would be a little chuckle followed by:
"Another joyful proclamation from my life partner that translates into: You suck, but I don't have the strength to leave you". 

"Gee thanks for showing such commitment and optimism. I will leave you to your happy thoughts". 

And then go do something useful/positive. 

If you are still in bed with her - you are just begging for more of this. Returning to the bed celibate was the ultimate beta move. And this with a W who is DEMANDING that you show some leadership. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know what to make of this, but tonight after dinner she came to me and said "you won". I can't leave my kids and I'm not leaving, but I'm not happy with you and I'm not having sex with you. We are going to be in this sexless marriage. I said that's not acceptable. We are married or not. Being married means having an emotional and physical connection. So she went around and around about how she is "stuck" and there is no way out of this. I said there is always a way out if you don't know what it is right now, give it time we will figure it out.
> 
> I guess the only thing that changed is that she is not leaving. Which is a change from a week ago when she was threatening to leave...


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> This is a lovely post. I am really rooting for both you and your wife. I hope you get to go back to the happiness you both once had.


One of the really big problems is that MNG’s wife has re written the history of their 15 years together. Either that or for the very first time MNG now knows exactly what his wife was thinking about but not expressing throughout their 15 years together.

It’s the “alternate realities of life”. Neither recognises the others reality as being “true”. Which leads to a feeling of being deluded.

If it is the case that MNG’s wife has re written history in order to justify how she is behaving in the present then guess what? That re written history that she’s been articulating in the past few months has become “fact” in her mind. So she may well be totally deluded and therefore actually fundamentally believe it is true even if to others, especially MNG, it is so obviously not true.

You have to experience this stuff to know the full impact it has on a person. MNG’s doing exceptionally well.

Bob


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## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I just feel there are better ways to do that than tease and manipulate her emotions.


Surely that’s exactly what MNG’s wife is doing to MNG, either consciously or sub consciously. Men know we’re supposed to be able to suck some of this stuff up, we know that. But there is a limit to a man’s empathy, patience, tolerance and understanding.

He’s far better off doing the 180 and setting healthy boundaries than he is of totally depleting himself of empathy, understanding, patience and tolerance because when that has happened he may well decide his wife is no longer worthy of his love and he may well eject her from his life as much as he is able to.

But while he’s doing the 180 he’s re centring, internalising his centre of gravity, maintaining healthy boundaries and he’s also conserving and building on his mental, emotional and spiritual energy he needs to keep running his business and making sure the children are ok as he goes through this phase in his life.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know what to make of this, but tonight after dinner she came to me and said "you won". I can't leave my kids and I'm not leaving, but I'm not happy with you and I'm not having sex with you. We are going to be in this sexless marriage. I said that's not acceptable. We are married or not. Being married means having an emotional and physical connection. So she went around and around about how she is "stuck" and there is no way out of this. I said there is always a way out if you don't know what it is right now, give it time we will figure it out.
> 
> I guess the only thing that changed is that she is not leaving. Which is a change from a week ago when she was threatening to leave...


It may help if you temporarily view your wife as having the maturity of a seven year old girl or a teenager with angst.

Bob


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## F-102

She's probably hoping that MNG will throw his hands up and say "I give up" and ask for divorce. Then she can play the "shocked, innocent victim" in front of a judge and get everything.


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## Ronin

Shes going to get everything ANYWAY. Shes going to have her cake and eat it too because the courts are setup to allow women to do that. It had happened over and over again. I dont see the purpose of the whole 180 tactic when clearly she has checked out. Its time to file and move on. It was time when she continued to see the man after the entire situation was brought to light.


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## AFEH

Ronin said:


> Shes going to get everything ANYWAY. Shes going to have her cake and eat it too because the courts are setup to allow women to do that. It had happened over and over again. I dont see the purpose of the whole 180 tactic when clearly she has checked out. Its time to file and move on. It was time when she continued to see the man after the entire situation was brought to light.


Righto. Just dump 17 years of his life and move on. I don't understand how some people can do that, it's way beyond me.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know what to make of this, but tonight after dinner she came to me and said "you won". I can't leave my kids and I'm not leaving, but I'm not happy with you and I'm not having sex with you. We are going to be in this sexless marriage. I said that's not acceptable. We are married or not. Being married means having an emotional and physical connection. So she went around and around about how she is "stuck" and there is no way out of this. I said there is always a way out if you don't know what it is right now, give it time we will figure it out.
> 
> I guess the only thing that changed is that she is not leaving. Which is a change from a week ago when she was threatening to leave...


It's passive aggressive. When she's saying, "You won." I believe she is meaning to say, "I refuse to let you win...ever."

There is a lot of negative game play in the relationship. I always say, "sometimes when you win, you lose." I think that's from What Dreams May Come. It's true.


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## eagleclaw

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know what to make of this, but tonight after dinner she came to me and said "you won". I can't leave my kids and I'm not leaving, but I'm not happy with you and I'm not having sex with you. We are going to be in this sexless marriage. I said that's not acceptable. We are married or not. Being married means having an emotional and physical connection. So she went around and around about how she is "stuck" and there is no way out of this. I said there is always a way out if you don't know what it is right now, give it time we will figure it out.
> 
> I guess the only thing that changed is that she is not leaving. Which is a change from a week ago when she was threatening to leave...


I think your response should have been:

"I'm sorry, but you don't get to set the terms and decide what kind of marriage we are going to have. It's either mutually benefiical and we both want it, or it's not. And based on your terms and your comments it's not. Your offering nothing, and in fact more of the same. That's not a commodity I am interested in."

At this point YOU push forth the legal seperation whether she wants it or not. She has it in her head that she has ALL the control. Each step is hers and hers alone to take. She keeps informing you how things are going to be. This is where you MUST teach her otherwise. She is not viewing this at all as a partnership. She dictates, you listen. Change this, change this swiftly, change this forcefully. Get a plan and get moving asap because your losing her more and more the longer you wait. This may not get her back, but it's not going to make things any worse and may help get YOU back.


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## eagleclaw

The 1 big thought process you need to change with her: is that you are NOT just waiting for her to plan both of your next moves. She NEEDS to realize that you may not want her as a wife anymore based on her comments, her actions and her terms. She needs to believe that she NEEDS to prove herself to you every bit as much as you to her.


----------



## Runs like Dog

F-102 said:


> She's probably hoping that MNG will throw his hands up and say "I give up" and ask for divorce. Then she can play the "shocked, innocent victim" in front of a judge and get everything.


BINGO. Inside every martyr beats the heart of a tyrant.


----------



## Runs like Dog

But to be fair, the greatest revenge you can wreak on a control freak is to give them total control. It's actually the last thing they want. Because all control freaks want all the power and none of the accountability.


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## nice777guy

Why should MNG file for divorce or start a formal separation process if this isn't what he wants?

Seems to me that the second you start doing things you DON'T want to do as a reaction to another person's actions, you are truly being manipulated.

I think there's a good chance that she does want a divorce right now - but either wants him to do all the work or wants him to look like the bad guy.


----------



## eagleclaw

I wouldn't got straight to divorce. But I think seperation is necessary. As she is right now, can/should anyone except that and consider as "wife" material? I'm all for trying everthing you can to work it out, and to be patient etc etc. However the underlying premise is that the other partner is at least invested, and active in trying to work things out. Without that, I don't believe you can send the message that the current state of things will be accepted or even a possibility going forward. In THIS situation - she needs a real display of strength, leadership and the realization that there ar two people in this relationship. And the fact that she says she is going to stay for the kids but they are not married, she doesn't like him and there will be no sex - does not mean that that's what's going to happen. Because he has a vote in this as well. And if he's not buying what she's selling............ then she has to market a new product to continue in this arrangement.

He's tried just about every other approach with her, and look at her most recent comments..............nuff said.


----------



## Neil

eagleclaw said:


> He's tried just about every other approach with her, and look at her most recent comments..............nuff said.



Exactly,

Time to up the game and mean it


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

F-102 said:


> She's probably hoping that MNG will throw his hands up and say "I give up" and ask for divorce. Then she can play the "shocked, innocent victim" in front of a judge and get everything.


This is exactly what she is trying to do. She wants me to cave and move out. Not happening as much as I want to escape the insanity sometimes...


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## MisterNiceGuy

Ronin said:


> Shes going to get everything ANYWAY. Shes going to have her cake and eat it too because the courts are setup to allow women to do that. It had happened over and over again. I dont see the purpose of the whole 180 tactic when clearly she has checked out. Its time to file and move on. It was time when she continued to see the man after the entire situation was brought to light.


Not quite there yet. The MC we are working with said I need to give it a couple more months before I move on or stay. (I should say she moves on and I stay...)


----------



## nice777guy

She's not crazy about him now. Already had one EA that was probably close to going physical and possibly ending the marriage.

Creating more space - in my opinion - is the beginning of the end.

Are you guys more worried about breaking this woman's will, or helping MNG?

Keep her around - but follow MEM's advice. Take the over-dramatic, passive aggressive comments lightly. Having self-control enough to not overreact to her drama IS just as Alpha as filing for a separation.

A sexless marriage? That's just a crappy marriage - not a marriage on the brink of ending. If you can get it back to where its just "sexless" but there's no cheating, then go over to the Sex forum and read some of the advice there.


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## MisterNiceGuy

eagleclaw said:


> I wouldn't got straight to divorce. But I think seperation is necessary. As she is right now, can/should anyone except that and consider as "wife" material? I'm all for trying everthing you can to work it out, and to be patient etc etc. However the underlying premise is that the other partner is at least invested, and active in trying to work things out. Without that, I don't believe you can send the message that the current state of things will be accepted or even a possibility going forward. In THIS situation - she needs a real display of strength, leadership and the realization that there ar two people in this relationship. And the fact that she says she is going to stay for the kids but they are not married, she doesn't like him and there will be no sex - does not mean that that's what's going to happen. Because he has a vote in this as well. And if he's not buying what she's selling............ then she has to market a new product to continue in this arrangement.
> 
> He's tried just about every other approach with her, and look at her most recent comments..............nuff said.


After reading some of these books about the masculine/feminine interplay I've come to the conclusion that I need to lead my life and she can come along if she wants. Her outbursts about how I've failed her and the family are just a lot of hot air. Women tend to say what is on the tip of their tounge in situations like this without a lot of forethought. I listen to her intently and offer no solutions, but internally I'm thinking there is something I could work on if I wanted. But I can't get caught up in the ups and downs of her emotiions, it will drive me nuts. What comes out of her mouth doesn't always mean what she feels deep down. Most of the day she acts like we are still married... so she is deriving emotinal support from me. She is frustrated about her sex life.


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## eagleclaw

nice777guy said:


> She's not crazy about him now. Already had one EA that was probably close to going physical and possibly ending the marriage.
> 
> Creating more space - in my opinion - is the beginning of the end.
> 
> Are you guys more worried about breaking this woman's will, or helping MNG?
> 
> Keep her around - but follow MEM's advice. Take the over-dramatic, passive aggressive comments lightly. Having self-control enough to not overreact to her drama IS just as Alpha as filing for a separation.
> 
> A sexless marriage? That's just a crappy marriage - not a marriage on the brink of ending. If you can get it back to where its just "sexless" but there's no cheating, then go over to the Sex forum and read some of the advice there.


I guess were seeing a difference of opinion regarding what a marriage is. I see your view I just don't share it. As a "sexless" marriage to me is NOT a marriage at all. And in fact in this case, the sexless part of this marriage was also a problem for his wife, which led to the affair to begin with. I would never be interested in accepting my role as provider, safety net, emotional support but not a person of desire to my wife and no sexual connection.


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## MisterNiceGuy

nice777guy said:


> She's not crazy about him now. Already had one EA that was probably close to going physical and possibly ending the marriage.
> 
> Creating more space - in my opinion - is the beginning of the end.
> 
> Are you guys more worried about breaking this woman's will, or helping MNG?
> 
> Keep her around - but follow MEM's advice. Take the over-dramatic, passive aggressive comments lightly. Having self-control enough to not overreact to her drama IS just as Alpha as filing for a separation.
> 
> A sexless marriage? That's just a crappy marriage - not a marriage on the brink of ending. If you can get it back to where its just "sexless" but there's no cheating, then go over to the Sex forum and read some of the advice there.


That's my feeling... I'm not ready to throw 17 years together that quickly. I think if we can have a relationship that is mutually acceptable, but sexless. I can deal with that for a few months, but not forever. You have to remember that we haven't had any decent sex for maybe 2 years so a couple more months isn't going really do anything to me... I still have my hand! :smthumbup:

It's still only been 29 days since she last talked to the OM. Too soon in my book to have figured it all out...


----------



## eagleclaw

MisterNiceGuy said:


> After reading some of these books about the masculine/feminine interplay I've come to the conclusion that I need to lead my life and she can come along if she wants. Her outbursts about how I've failed her and the family are just a lot of hot air. Women tend to say what is on the tip of their tounge in situations like this without a lot of forethought. I listen to her intently and offer no solutions, but internally I'm thinking there is something I could work on if I wanted. But I can't get caught up in the ups and downs of her emotiions, it will drive me nuts. What comes out of her mouth doesn't always mean what she feels deep down. Most of the day she acts like we are still married... so she is deriving emotinal support from me. She is frustrated about her sex life.


Your right, woman are VERY emotional and a lot of times what they say IS hot air, but there is an underlying amount of truth to how there feeling in it so you can't totally discount it. She should NOT be deriving emotional support from you right now as you have been doing the 180 and disengaging from her......

Also, why would she be frustrated about her sex life when she is the one flatly denying the entire sex dept of your marriage? You don't see that by the very rules she is trying to create for this marriage there is no way for you to proceed and have any hope of winning? "

She needs more sex, but sex is off the table because she doesn't feel that way about you"

What's this say? That again this will be filled elsewhere?


----------



## eagleclaw

MisterNiceGuy said:


> That's my feeling... I'm not ready to throw 17 years together that quickly. I think if we can have a relationship that is mutually acceptable, but sexless. I can deal with that for a few months, but not forever. You have to remember that we haven't had any decent sex for maybe 2 years so a couple more months isn't going really do anything to me... I still have my hand! :smthumbup:
> 
> It's still only been 29 days since she last talked to the OM. Too soon in my book to have figured it all out...


OMG - So your willing to accept that lousy conditions of the marriage that you had, that led to all of this. Wow. You have a chance to LEAD and set the basic requirements of what at a bare minimum is acceptable to you in this marriage. She has pretty much begged you to man up. But your willing to accept the/a sexless relationship where she gets the comforts of being cared for, the emotional upkeep, the stability but returns nothing other than her hurtful comments and wishy washy blame game where your at the core of all her problems. 

I don't believe I have the communication tools to get through to you so I'll back off, my thoughts are with you and I wish you well.


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## Amplexor

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I'm not leaving, but I'm not happy with you and I'm not having sex with you. We are going to be in this sexless marriage.



Don't sweat it, the 180 is working. She is trying to leverage you with one of the last weapons she has left. Do the 180 on that too for now. "OK, fine, whatever." My marriage went sexless for quite some time, probably too long. But in the end, sex was the final portion of the emotional wall she had built around herself to come down. Once the intimacy restarted she let go of the rest of the baggage and began to bond again. This is not a situation where it will change with the flip of a switch or watershed event. It is a process.


----------



## MEM2020

Are you sharing a bedroom?




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Not quite there yet. The MC we are working with said I need to give it a couple more months before I move on or stay. (I should say she moves on and I stay...)


----------



## AFEH

Amplexor said:


> Don't sweat it, the 180 is working. She is trying to leverage you with one of the last weapons she has left. Do the 180 on that too for now. "OK, fine, whatever." My marriage went sexless for quite some time, probably too long. But in the end, sex was the final portion of the emotional wall she had built around herself to come down. Once the intimacy restarted she let go of the rest of the baggage and began to bond again. This is not a situation where it will change with the flip of a switch or watershed event. It is a process.


“Ok, fine whatever” I was going to say the same thing, the same response. It demonstrates indifference and there’s many a fish bite on the bate of indifference. But not many people know that. Indifference goes hand in hand with the 180. It puts the onus totally on the other person to either put up or shut up, crap or get off the pan.

And yes it is a process the length and breadth of which ... varies.

Bob


----------



## IanIronwood

nice777guy said:


> Creating more space - in my opinion - is the beginning of the end.



I disagree. It's a risk, true, but so is letting her stay where she is. To be proactive about this, he needs to put her in a position where she really is risking losing him. She doesn't value him personally at all, and she never will be able to until she is at serious risk of losing him.



nice777guy said:


> Are you guys more worried about breaking this woman's will, or helping MNG?


The two are not mutually exclusive.

Let's take a look at what her "will" has given him: an affair, a belligerent and selfish perspective, and a willingness to risk the happiness of the people closest to her. That kind of will needs breaking, if MNG is going to be happy. Mrs. MNG needs to get a fresh, healthy, and robust dose of perspective, and she's not getting it wringing her hands about how she can't figure a way out.



nice777guy said:


> A sexless marriage? That's just a crappy marriage - not a marriage on the brink of ending. If you can get it back to where its just "sexless" but there's no cheating, then go over to the Sex forum and read some of the advice there.


No, a sexless marriage is a contradiction in terms. If they are under the same roof but not bumping uglies, they aren't married, they're roommates. MNG is quite right about making that a non-starter.


----------



## IanIronwood

Amplexor said:


> Don't sweat it, the 180 is working. She is trying to leverage you with one of the last weapons she has left. Do the 180 on that too for now. "OK, fine, whatever." My marriage went sexless for quite some time, probably too long. But in the end, sex was the final portion of the emotional wall she had built around herself to come down. Once the intimacy restarted she let go of the rest of the baggage and began to bond again. This is not a situation where it will change with the flip of a switch or watershed event. It is a process.


I tend to agree. Continue with the stubborn indifference, but make absolutely certain that she understands that she's not in control of the situation, beyond her own head-games. You're willing to walk away from the table at any moment, but out of respect for your marriage (not her, but the union) you're willing to fiddle around a couple of more months . . . while you make contingency plans. But you also have to make her realize that while you're being patient and generous, that your patience has definite limits and yours will be up about the end of June. 

Sure, you can be celibate a few more months, not a problem. But don't let "a few" stretch into six, then a year, while she's trying to figure her crap out. That's unfair to you. And the whole sex issue? Be adamant about that. No sex = no marriage. Period. There can be no compromise about that. Her even bringing up the idea of a "sexless marriage" is personally insulting and deeply passive aggressive on her side, and you shouldn't even give the issue the dignity of a serious response. 

"Sexless marriage" = "I want to use you even though I don't respect you in the slightest."


----------



## MEM2020

And no matter what MNG SAYS, if he stays in the bedroom his message to her is "I will accept whatever terms you dictate". 

And that behavior is a GIANT turn off for a woman who wants a strong male. Sleeping next to her is a near guarantee that she will never respect him and thus never sleep with him. 

This is NOT about breaking her. This is about her need for MNG to show that she cannot break HIM. So far he has struggled to demonstrate that. 



IanIronwood said:


> I tend to agree. Continue with the stubborn indifference, but make absolutely certain that she understands that she's not in control of the situation, beyond her own head-games. You're willing to walk away from the table at any moment, but out of respect for your marriage (not her, but the union) you're willing to fiddle around a couple of more months . . . while you make contingency plans. But you also have to make her realize that while you're being patient and generous, that your patience has definite limits and yours will be up about the end of June.
> 
> Sure, you can be celibate a few more months, not a problem. But don't let "a few" stretch into six, then a year, while she's trying to figure her crap out. That's unfair to you. And the whole sex issue? Be adamant about that. No sex = no marriage. Period. There can be no compromise about that. Her even bringing up the idea of a "sexless marriage" is personally insulting and deeply passive aggressive on her side, and you shouldn't even give the issue the dignity of a serious response.
> 
> "Sexless marriage" = "I want to use you even though I don't respect you in the slightest."


----------



## nice777guy

MisterNiceGuy said:


> *I can deal with that for a few months, but not forever. You have to remember that we haven't had any decent sex for maybe 2 years so a couple more months isn't going really do anything to me... *
> 
> It's still only been 29 days since she last talked to the OM. Too soon in my book to have figured it all out...


Agreeing - bolding for emphasis.

I think she's more likely to come around if she's in the same bed, or at least the same house.

Do you guys advise all people looking for help in the sex threads to stop sleeping with their spouse if they aren't getting any sex? And at what point - after a month? Or - if your drive is strong maybe you kick them out after two weeks?

MNG has stated his wife has a strong need for attention. If she leaves, she'll find the attention elsewhere and then I think she's gone.

I agree with the therapist and vote for stay-the-course...


----------



## nice777guy

Amplexor said:


> Don't sweat it, the 180 is working. She is trying to leverage you with one of the last weapons she has left. Do the 180 on that too for now. "OK, fine, whatever." My marriage went sexless for quite some time, probably too long. But in the end, sex was the final portion of the emotional wall she had built around herself to come down. Once the intimacy restarted she let go of the rest of the baggage and began to bond again. This is not a situation where it will change with the flip of a switch or watershed event. *It is a process.*


:iagree:


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> That's my feeling... I'm not ready to throw 17 years together that quickly. I think if we can have a relationship that is mutually acceptable, but sexless. I can deal with that for a few months, but not forever. You have to remember that we haven't had any decent sex for maybe 2 years so a couple more months isn't going really do anything to me... I still have my hand! :smthumbup:
> 
> It's still only been 29 days since she last talked to the OM. Too soon in my book to have figured it all out...


MNG, the EA is not the event that created the problem in your marriage, it’s a symptom of the problem(s).

That “problem” happened what, two or three years ago? And rather than confront (Archetypal Mr Nice Guy behaviour) and resolve the problem you’ve been mainly satisfying yourself with your hand?

Do you no longer have desire for your wife?

I wonder, who took sex off the table first? And what led up to that? There in lies the problem. Once you know the problem, you may well find the solution. I don’t think dancing around the EA etc. etc. is going to get anywhere. Except more of the same.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Do you guys advise all people looking for help in the sex threads to stop sleeping with their spouse if they aren't getting any sex? And at what point - after a month? Or - if your drive is strong maybe you kick them out after two weeks?


Personally I never had the problem. In over 40 years went without for two weeks max. I always had desire for my wife and she never turned me down.

Two years without sex, not my world but we’re not all the same by any means.

But then again isn’t the frequency and quality of sex one of the best ways to know if your marriage is hot, cold, warm or indifferent? If that is the case in MNG’s situation sounds like his marriage has been near to freezing for over two years.

Bob


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## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> This is NOT about breaking her. This is about her need for MNG to show that she cannot break HIM. So far he has struggled to demonstrate that.


Absolutely. But MNG hasn’t put up the sign “Don’t mess with me” as yet.

I somehow wish MNG could tap into your use of humour in these situations. My son does it well, a bit of indifference followed by humour when his partner fitness tests him. It works every time, I see it on her face and in her body language.

Bob


----------



## IanIronwood

nice777guy said:


> Do you guys advise all people looking for help in the sex threads to stop sleeping with their spouse if they aren't getting any sex? And at what point - after a month? Or - if your drive is strong maybe you kick them out after two weeks?


That depends upon the situation, but if there's been no sex for an unlikely amount of time (six months or so) and the LD spouse doesn't have an adequate or sufficient answer for the drought, then yes, I might advise the HD spouse to retreat from the physical marriage bed until the underlying issues are resolved, one way or another. 



nice777guy said:


> MNG has stated his wife has a strong need for attention. If she leaves, she'll find the attention elsewhere and then I think she's gone.
> 
> I agree with the therapist and vote for stay-the-course...


Perhaps. But it isn't just about HER, and what he has to do to keep HER in the marriage. It's about whether or not they can both find happiness. Having basically an ex-girlfriend living under your roof while she figures out whether she despises you or not might be a great thing -- for her -- but it doesn't do jack in terms of helping him. At best, it postpones the inevitable at the expense of increasing the length of suffering. 

My six year old has a strong need for attention, too. That doesn't mean that I'm obligated to fulfill that need upon his whim. You don't reward abhorrent behavior with more attention unless you're a masochist. I swear, when I saw Sex in The City 2 movie last week, I almost had a stroke when I realized that the movie's "right answer" to a wife's EA/PA was . . . to buy her more jewelry. That HAD to be written by a woman.


----------



## nice777guy

IanIronwood said:


> That depends upon the situation, but if there's been no sex for an unlikely amount of time (six months or so) and the LD spouse doesn't have an adequate or sufficient answer for the drought, then yes, I might advise the HD spouse to retreat from the physical marriage bed until the underlying issues are resolved, one way or another.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps. But it isn't just about HER, and what he has to do to keep HER in the marriage. It's about whether or not they can both find happiness. Having basically an ex-girlfriend living under your roof while she figures out whether she despises you or not might be a great thing -- for her -- but it doesn't do jack in terms of helping him. At best, it postpones the inevitable at the expense of increasing the length of suffering.
> 
> My six year old has a strong need for attention, too. That doesn't mean that I'm obligated to fulfill that need upon his whim. You don't reward abhorrent behavior with more attention unless you're a masochist. I swear, when I saw Sex in The City 2 movie last week, I almost had a stroke when I realized that the movie's "right answer" to a wife's EA/PA was . . . to buy her more jewelry. That HAD to be written by a woman.


Got you and agree with most of it.

But like Bob was suggesting, the EA and this distance wasn't ALL his wife's fault. If they rebuild the relationship, the sex will follow.

Its not just HER figuring out what she wants to do either. MNG sounds to me like he wants to save it - but recognizes that he's barely out of the water. He has to figure out how far he's willing to go in order to keep things together.

And the attention part - you don't reward her - just keep her close and throw her the occaisional bone. Its not the time to buy her jewelry - or anything except maybe a book on healing marriages. But if you throw her out, she'll find SOMEONE who will (temporarily) give her the attention she craves. And yes - it IS comparable to a six year old.

I'm guessing she's ALWAYS had this need for attention, yet MNG married her in spite of it. Kind of rough to completely turn your back on it now.


----------



## AFEH

But NG, your way so obviously doesn't work!

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> But NG, your way so obviously doesn't work!
> 
> Bob


???

Help me out here Bob. Sarcasm or biting criticism?

As for me, I actually got what I THOUGHT I wanted - accomplished my short-term mission.

Add that to 16 years of (a mostly good) marriage, and I don't feel too far gone to give advice!


----------



## IanIronwood

I think we all have something to contribute here, based on our particular perspectives. The fact is, all of our women are different, and all of our situations are different. But by exchanging ideas and experiences we arm ourselves for a wider range of possibilities. That's a comparatively novel thing for men to do, actually, and we should appreciate the power inherent in such exchanges.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> Are you sharing a bedroom?


Off and on... Mostly off, but a couple nights this week we slept in the same bed. Mainly because I can't sleep in our kids bed (the only other bed around) it's too small for me! I'm too tall for the couches...


----------



## Deejo

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Off and on... Mostly off, but a couple nights this week we slept in the same bed. Mainly because I can't sleep in our kids bed (the only other bed around) it's too small for me! I'm too tall for the couches...


Brother, you walked right into that one ...

Ummm ... what happened with her sleeping in the office/den? Was she 'uncomfortable'?

I'm going to preemptively apologize for my pessimism. I really do wish you well. But I also know wishes don't come true.

Neither of you are anywhere remotely close to where you need to be, and importantly, she doesn't want to 'be' there at all.

Do not fall into the trap of mistaking non-confrontation as harmony. Do not mistake conversation for 'connecting'.

I absolutely think that you need to laugh at this chick more. She's outrageous. She's funny.

You should be putting absolute zero faith in anything that comes out of her mouth at this point. Just keep chuckling and shaking your head.

She IS like a child. Certainly not an adult woman.


----------



## nice777guy

Practical question I've always wanted to ask: 

How do you kick someone out of bed? Literally...


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Practical question I've always wanted to ask:
> 
> How do you kick someone out of bed? Literally...


Eat lots of fiber and onions.

To me it's more about the mindset. He wants her to be comfortable. He wants to be chivalrous. I get that, really. 
Yet, kindness and giving has not quite had the hoped for results.

I may be misremembering, but I thought I recalled, oh ... 40 pages or so ago, that she moved out of the bedroom.


----------



## IanIronwood

Deejo said:


> Brother, you walked right into that one ...
> 
> Ummm ... what happened with her sleeping in the office/den? Was she 'uncomfortable'?
> 
> I'm going to preemptively apologize for my pessimism. I really do wish you well. But I also know wishes don't come true.
> 
> Neither of you are anywhere remotely close to where you need to be, and importantly, she doesn't want to 'be' there at all.
> 
> Do not fall into the trap of mistaking non-confrontation as harmony. Do not mistake conversation for 'connecting'.
> 
> I absolutely think that you need to laugh at this chick more. She's outrageous. She's funny.
> 
> You should be putting absolute zero faith in anything that comes out of her mouth at this point. Just keep chuckling and shaking your head.
> 
> She IS like a child. Certainly not an adult woman.


It pains me to agree about this, but that's absolutely correct. If you let her back into your bed before there is a full reconciliation, then she's cake-eating hardcore and you'll suffer for it. Until she's demonstrated consistent remorse, then that kind of casual cohabitating is severely counterproductive. What you're doing is assuring her that no matter what kind of crap flies out of her mouth, she can always grab a slice of security next to you in bed . . . and she doesn't even have to put out to get it!

Your marital bed is a sanctum, a sacred place that represents the unity of two partners. She shattered that. Allowing her to return to bed before she's committed is rewarding that behavior. She needs to feel as if she's been exiled from the marital bed in order to force her to face the reality of what she's done -- and what she's doing. 

In fact, I would actually encourage you to totally re-decorate your bedroom during this period of exile, without consulting her about the particulars. Most married couples' bedrooms are sterile affairs that seem to discourage passion and sex at the expense of propriety. I'd encourage you to change up the color, maybe invest in some new sheets (700 threadcount or higher) pillows, or even a new mattress, re-do curtains and blinds, and invest in some tastefully erotic art that doesn't get talked about in the counselor's office at your kids' school. Let me know if you need suggestions.

But the key is to nest in the marital bedroom and make it the kind of love palace you always wanted . . . but without consulting her or asking her permission in the slightest. What you're doing is in effect preparing the space for the next patron, be it her or your next girlfriend. The implication is clear, subtextually: _I'm preparing to resume a sexual relationship and am looking forward to a future that might not include you._ You are taking control of yourself in a very real -- and to her, very frightening way. Unless I miss my guess, I'd say that your wife basically decreed how the bedroom was going to look and you went along with it because, let's face it, if your wife wants a certain bedroom decor you're going to give it to her. I mean, what do we really care?

But the thing is, we do care. When a married couple's bedroom looks more like a mid-range Holiday Inn room than the Palace of Monkey Love, not only is it not going to encourage sex, it's going to discourage the kind of comfortability that leads to the intimacy you need for sex. One way or another, you need to exorcise the demons from your past and redecorating the bedroom to your specs -- not hers -- would be a giant step in that direction.


----------



## Conrad

Sleeping in the same bed with no touching.

Interesting way to hold to that 180 we keep discussing.


----------



## MEM2020

*Relentless focus on fairness*

You don't kick someone out of a shared bedroom. You alternate weeks in the bedroom. Very simple. 

MNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG, continues to fail to enforce boundaries. His W continues to bounce around like an emotional pinball. Disaster looms. 



nice777guy said:


> Practical question I've always wanted to ask:
> 
> How do you kick someone out of bed? Literally...


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> ???
> 
> Help me out here Bob. Sarcasm or biting criticism?
> 
> As for me, I actually got what I THOUGHT I wanted - accomplished my short-term mission.
> 
> Add that to 16 years of (a mostly good) marriage, and I don't feel too far gone to give advice!


Neither NG, just a statement of fact after you'd posted "I think she's more likely to come around if she's in the same bed". Plus I recall you saying your wife only started to come round after you felt you didn't care one way or the other.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

It read like biting criticism to me. I thought it sucked and I wanted to beat you up Bob.


----------



## AFEH

You know MNG you are getting some seriously good advice here. I was with my wife for over 40 years yet I reckon I’ve learnt more about relationships here on TAM over the past year or so than I did in over 4 decades. I obviously did mostly good in those 4 decades but there were times when if I’d heeded advice given here on TAM the bad times would not have been so traumatic.

But to implement the advice you’re being given means getting outside of your comfort zone. The values and beliefs you have are fundamentally sound, they have created the world you have around you now. You are by no means one of those waste of space husbands, you take your responsibilities seriously.

But. I really do feel you need to get outside of your comfort zone, do things that you are not initially comfortable with. It’s like lateral thinking and lateral behaviour. Getting outside our comfort zone is how we learn and grow, it’s how we think and behave differently to get the results we want out of life.

So even if the things being suggested to you make you feel uncomfortable, do them. I will tell the old age saying “We don’t regret the things we did, we regret the things we didn’t do” is very true.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> It read like biting criticism to me. I thought it sucked and I wanted to beat you up Bob.


Trenton, I've never seen abusive behaviour stop when it’s rewarded by acts of service, emotional support etc. etc. which was what NG was recommending. I reckon a lot of us have been there, done that. I certainly have. I know it doesn’t work, you just get taken advantage of, used and abused. A guy punches me on the nose and I take him out and buy him beers? It amounts to the same thing.

MNG will have made mistakes, he knows that. But I for one haven’t gone there as yet simply because his wife has not yet stepped right back into the marriage. When, if, she does that MNG will get a whole new lot of advice.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> But like Bob was suggesting, the EA and this distance wasn't ALL his wife's fault. If they rebuild the relationship, the sex will follow.


NG of course the EA was all his wife’s fault. 100% his wife’s fault. Surely there’s no arguing with that?

Look. Things happen to us in life and we as adults have the choice of how we respond to what happens to us. We are way beyond the age of having say our parents being responsible for our behaviour. In England that age is something like 18 years old.

For example, MNG’s wife, according to her, never felt any love/passion for her husband, her life isn’t like she wants it to be from a financial perspective etc. etc. There are many ways his wife could have responded to the circumstances she found herself in. She could have read books about love and passion in a marriage, she could have gone out to work to increase the family’s income, she could have told MNG she’s sorry but it’s over and gone out and cut her own way in the world. But she didn’t do those things, did she?

Instead she chose to hook up with the well off husband of one of her best friends!!! That was her choice. And as such her choice had absolutely nothing to do with MNG.

MNG is NOT responsible for his wife’s behaviour.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Alright. Sleeping in my own bed tonight again. I will until she we get to reconcilliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> MNG, *the EA is not the event that created the problem in your marriage, it’s a symptom of the problem(s).*
> 
> *That “problem” happened what, two or three years ago? And rather than confront (Archetypal Mr Nice Guy behaviour) and resolve the problem you’ve been mainly satisfying yourself with your hand?*
> 
> Do you no longer have desire for your wife?
> 
> I wonder, who took sex off the table first? And what led up to that? There in lies the problem. Once you know the problem, you may well find the solution. I don’t think dancing around the EA etc. etc. is going to get anywhere. Except more of the same.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

Bolded for confusion.

I understand his wife had choices regarding how to deal with things. But EAs don't happen in a vacuum. Thats what I thought you were suggesting in the statement quoted above. In fact, the EA - per your quote - isn't even the real problem - but just a symptom.

In order to determine the "real problem" that you refer to, won't MNG at SOME POINT actually need to talk to his wife again?


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Got up this morning and fired up the family computer in the kitchen. Answered some emails and then looked at the browser history. My wife doesn't use this computer much, she has one in her office she uses mostly and I stopped snooping on that weeks ago. But for some reason I checked this computer this morning... 

I just looked at yesterday's history and my wife was searching on these terms like, wanting sex in marriage, spiritual connection in marriage, marriage without sexual chemistry and can a marriage be saved if no love. 

I would say this is a change in her outlook. Last time I saw any browsing history on the computer she was looking for apartments, lawyers and how to survive a divorce kind of stuff... 

I don't know... I can't get my hopes up, but I would say things might slowly be changing in her head.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> It read like biting criticism to me. I thought it sucked and I wanted to beat you up Bob.


I've asked him to meet me on the playground after school once before and he never showed.


----------



## nice777guy

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Got up this morning and fired up the family computer in the kitchen. Answered some emails and then looked at the browser history. My wife doesn't use this computer much, she has one in her office she uses mostly and I stopped snooping on that weeks ago. But for some reason I checked this computer this morning...
> 
> I just looked at yesterday's history and my wife was searching on these terms like, wanting sex in marriage, spiritual connection in marriage, marriage without sexual chemistry and can a marriage be saved if no love.
> 
> I would say this is a change in her outlook. Last time I saw any browsing history on the computer she was looking for apartments, lawyers and how to survive a divorce kind of stuff...
> 
> I don't know... I can't get my hopes up, but I would say things might slowly be changing in her head.


Don't get your hopes up. Its one thing to search for this stuff - but actually making changes is all that counts.


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> I've asked him to meet me on the playground after school once before and he never showed.


'cause I sucker punched him in the hallway!

MNG, It's not that I'd say don't get your hopes up but moreso say that it's a clear indication of how your wife really feels and shows that she, too, is struggling in how to be in a relationship and be happy.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Bob,
> 
> Bolded for confusion.
> 
> I understand his wife had choices regarding how to deal with things. But EAs don't happen in a vacuum. Thats what I thought you were suggesting in the statement quoted above. In fact, the EA - per your quote - isn't even the real problem - but just a symptom.
> 
> In order to determine the "real problem" that you refer to, won't MNG at SOME POINT actually need to talk to his wife again?


NG. I still don’t think you’ve got it.

Write out 1,000 times “I am NOT responsible for my wife’s behaviour”.

If you can get that, understand it you will have moved forward in a positive way.

There is a caveat. Of course through our behaviour we can bring joy and happiness, trauma and sadness into another person’s life, including our husband or wife’s life. Essentially the more happiness we bring into other people’s lives the happier we are as a person. So our happiness or sadness is somewhat dependent upon other people in our lives. It’s the interconnected nature of us humans.

But. As individuals we are not responsible for another’s behaviour. That other person owns responsibility for their behaviour in exactly the same way we all own responsibility for our own behaviour.

Isn’t “personal responsibility” what we teach our children?

And isn’t a child who says “He made me do it!!!”.

Mr and Mrs MNG are “un-reconciled” at the moment. In that they have big unresolved issues between them. There is no way those issues are going to be resolved until Mrs MNG says that she wants “Fully back into the marriage and that she will do whatever it takes to make it a happy and successful one”.

That’s when they start talking and working out their problems.

At times as we all know marriage can be very tough. But the problems will remain unresolved until the two of them are batting at the same wicket on the same team.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Got up this morning and fired up the family computer in the kitchen. Answered some emails and then looked at the browser history. My wife doesn't use this computer much, she has one in her office she uses mostly and I stopped snooping on that weeks ago. But for some reason I checked this computer this morning...
> 
> I just looked at yesterday's history and my wife was searching on these terms like, wanting sex in marriage, spiritual connection in marriage, marriage without sexual chemistry and can a marriage be saved if no love.
> 
> I would say this is a change in her outlook. Last time I saw any browsing history on the computer she was looking for apartments, lawyers and how to survive a divorce kind of stuff...
> 
> I don't know... I can't get my hopes up, but I would say things might slowly be changing in her head.


MNG. Isn't this how your wife "Sends you messages" ???

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> MNG. Isn't this how your wife "Sends you messages" ???
> 
> Bob


Some would say so, but I stopped reading her journal and snooping on her personal computer weeks ago. I don't know why today I decided to check the family computer... The funny thing was I read in the Michele Weiner Davis book "Divorce Remedy" is that leaving these types of hints laying around is quite common, that's when I stopped looking for them. If she really wants these things, she needs to verbalize them to me because as far as I know we are still "un-reconciled" and will continue to act that way until something happens on her end.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> 'cause I sucker punched him in the hallway!


Well you actually went and broke my nose. It was very painful and I’ve just returned from hospital. My eyes are still black but the doc says my nose will heal nicely and I’ll look fine in 4 to 6 weeks

Because you are such a nice person, a case of red and white wine is on it's way for you to enjoy with your husband. And I just want you to know if you do it again I’ll treat you to a meal at your favourite restaurant with two bottles of champagne and when you get home there’ll be a big bunch of flowers waiting along with two cases of red and white wine. Perhaps next time you can run me over with your car or something. For that I’ll send you a million dollars.

Bob


----------



## eagleclaw

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Got up this morning and fired up the family computer in the kitchen. Answered some emails and then looked at the browser history. My wife doesn't use this computer much, she has one in her office she uses mostly and I stopped snooping on that weeks ago. But for some reason I checked this computer this morning...
> 
> I just looked at yesterday's history and my wife was searching on these terms like, wanting sex in marriage, spiritual connection in marriage, marriage without sexual chemistry and can a marriage be saved if no love.
> 
> I would say this is a change in her outlook. Last time I saw any browsing history on the computer she was looking for apartments, lawyers and how to survive a divorce kind of stuff...
> 
> I don't know... I can't get my hopes up, but I would say things might slowly be changing in her head.


At some point, when the time is right - you are going to have to just "take" your wife aggressively. She needs to see a new side of you in that area - an exciting side. She needs to see there is more to your sexuality than she has already seen. 

I honestly don't know when you should do this. She has flip flopped and been all over the place and the 180 is what you should be doing - but I think she does need to see that you are capable of this kind of passion. Maybe the way to this is not as husband and wife, but think of her ass a piece of ass for the night. Be selfish. Do it for you. Be physical and be aggresssive. But if she shows real resistance then STOP. You are not abusing or hurting her, only creating the perception of raw aggression and desire. She has been looking for something else, something new. Be that something else and something new.

She tells you no sex, but it would seem that sex/or the lack of sex is one of her biggest issues. You may wish to disregard her exact words and act more on her underlying theme. Just physically TAKE her.... if she starts to throw real, serious resistance - then simply stop, and leave. Dont apologize, don't get angry, don't talk about it. Stop and act like you don't care and do something else. Next time she complains about sex life calmly point out that it is she who most recently dampened it.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> 'cause I sucker punched him in the hallway!
> 
> MNG, It's not that I'd say don't get your hopes up but moreso say that it's a clear indication of how your wife really feels and shows that she, too, is struggling in how to be in a relationship and be happy.


It's a clear indication of squat. She is wrestling with which choice to make that causes her the least amount of pain and discomfort. She's trying to decide what she can _tolerate_ ... not what she wants or desires.

_That_ is why she is struggling.

MNG should follow a very simple guideline regarding getting one's hopes up ... it should be based purely upon action and behavior, rather than search histories or innuendo.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Deejo said:


> MNG should follow a very simple guideline regarding getting one's hopes up ... it should be based purely upon action and behavior, rather than search histories or innuendo.


Exactly... actions speak louder than words. So far no action to prove anything positive...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

eagleclaw said:


> At some point, when the time is right - you are going to have to just "take" your wife aggressively. She needs to see a new side of you in that area - an exciting side. She needs to see there is more to your sexuality than she has already seen.


I have struggled with this for weeks. If she gave me any indication that she wanted anything from me in the sex department, I would go for it. Right now I'm watching for some signals other than words...


----------



## Deejo

eagleclaw said:


> At some point, when the time is right - you are going to have to just "take" your wife aggressively. She needs to see a new side of you in that area - an exciting side. She needs to see there is more to your sexuality than she has already seen.
> 
> I honestly don't know when you should do this.


No time soon. They have neither friendship, nor respect. Yes, sex is important. But under current conditions ... it isn't even on the horizon line. Nor should it be.

If they were to start having sex now ... it would be little more than a bargaining chip, and that would make things worse ... not better.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Well you actually went and broke my nose. It was very painful and I’ve just returned from hospital. My eyes are still black but the doc says my nose will heal nicely and I’ll look fine in 4 to 6 weeks
> 
> Because you are such a nice person, a case of red and white wine is on it's way for you to enjoy with your husband. And I just want you to know if you do it again I’ll treat you to a meal at your favourite restaurant with two bottles of champagne and when you get home there’ll be a big bunch of flowers waiting along with two cases of red and white wine. Perhaps next time you can run me over with your car or something. For that I’ll send you a million dollars.
> 
> Bob


Are you trying to romance me? It's working. :smthumbup:


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Exactly... actions speak louder than words. So far no action to prove anything positive...


I think it's encouraging, but only mildly. Look at the way she put in the search terms -- she's still floundering, and it's clear that she still has a long way to go. Bravo on keeping her out of the bedroom. That needs to remain your domain, symbolically, until she makes up her mind. 

I also agree with the previous post on getting out of your comfort zone. And I'm not just talking about how you handle your wife. You need to start pushing your personal boundaries, and while that implies an element of calculated risk, the fact is that there can be no personal growth without such challenges. Count on the fact that your wife is going to be spinning her wheels for the next two months as she figures out what the hell she wants, so it's an ideal time to stretch your boundaries and push yourself a little without any input from her. Figure out whatever it is you do best and push the envelope a little. Figure out something you always wanted/planned/dreamed of doing, and make it happen. Create situations where your personal initiative is rewarded with success, and that will breed the kind of confidence you're going to need regardless of the outcome.

And don't try "taking" your wife aggressively, not any time soon. If that was going to work, it would have happened two weeks ago. At this point you're going to just have to wait it out, let her go through her little dance, and see where she lands. In the mean time, just amp up the tiger blood and testosterone. Go rent "300" and discover your inner Spartan.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> It's a clear indication of squat. She is wrestling with which choice to make that causes her the least amount of pain and discomfort. She's trying to decide what she can _tolerate_ ... not what she wants or desires.
> 
> _That_ is why she is struggling.
> 
> MNG should follow a very simple guideline regarding getting one's hopes up ... it should be based purely upon action and behavior, rather than search histories or innuendo.


Although I agree on the later part of your post, I'd like to know how you know for certain the first part. Why would she wrestle with what choices will cause her the least amount of pain and discomfort without also considering her own wants and desires?

It's almost as if his wife has to stay the villain for this entire thing to work and that is flawed in that it is one dimensional.


----------



## eagleclaw

IanIronwood said:


> And don't try "taking" your wife aggressively, not any time soon. If that was going to work, it would have happened two weeks ago. At this point you're going to just have to wait it out, let her go through her little dance, and see where she lands. In the mean time, just amp up the tiger blood and testosterone. Go rent "300" and discover your inner Spartan.


I agree, now is not the time. My point was that she seems to have a real problem with there current sex life - and I don't think he is going to have a lot more chances or oppertunities to show her a new side......... so when the the time IS right - he needs to take that oppertunity to show a different side of himself.


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> Although I agree on the later part of your post, I'd like to know how you know for certain the first part. Why would she wrestle with what choices will cause her the least amount of pain and discomfort without also considering her own wants and desires?
> 
> It's almost as if his wife has to stay the villain for this entire thing to work and that is flawed in that it is one dimensional.


Less the villain, and more the suddenly-insane midlifing post menopausal flake who's allowing her personal issues destroy her family. But I can understand the confusion.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> It's almost as if his wife has to stay the villain for this entire thing to work and that is flawed in that it is one dimensional.


You just beautifully summarized why we must consistently agree to disagree.
I don't see his wife as a 'villain'. 

There are steps they can each take to grow closer together, or continue growing apart.

I focus on who is here asking for advice. She distinctly is not.

If MNG wants to rebuild his marriage into something far better than what it was - in light of his wife insisting that she never truly loved him in the first place, (You do remember that part I hope, I'm not making it up) there are things that he distinctly must do, and things he distinctly must not do when it comes to interacting with his spouse.

She is confused, waffling all over the place, and at best ... luke warm about reconciling. She isn't happy now ... but questions if she would be happy alone, on her own, and only having her kids part time. She wants money, freedom, and excitement ... that is what she 'desires'. None of those things are in the cards on the table.

She's not a villain, but she is a mess.


----------



## eagleclaw

Part of manning up is being the best man you can be. Also cultivating desire and attraction. In this case, what Mrs MNG remembers of there sex life does not cultivate desire or attraction for her. So as she sits there and tries to figure out what she wants, and focus's on what's she's missing and what's wrong with it she keeps coming back to what she needs different in the sex dept.

In the future, when she's weighing these options going forward - I think it would advantageous if she had some new/out of the boring norm - sexual experiences to help wiegh in on her decision making process. As I had pointed out - now is not the time - but when it is if he can show that he can provide some of what she is missing it may help his situation trememdously.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Why would she wrestle with what choices will cause her the least amount of pain and discomfort without also considering her own wants and desires?


Because she'll compromise the marriage to death.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Are you trying to romance me? It's working. :smthumbup:


Ha! I'll keep on going even though it'll be the death of me!

To save you the trouble with the car and getting it damaged, mind you I would have paid the repair, I've just hired a hit man for $20,000, he's doing the job next week as he's a bit busy with this stuff at the moment. The cheque is in the post to you.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> You just beautifully summarized why we must consistently agree to disagree.
> I don't see his wife as a 'villain'.
> 
> There are steps they can each take to grow closer together, or continue growing apart.
> 
> I focus on who is here asking for advice. She distinctly is not.
> 
> If MNG wants to rebuild his marriage into something far better than what it was - in light of his wife insisting that she never truly loved him in the first place, (You do remember that part I hope, I'm not making it up) there are things that he distinctly must do, and things he distinctly must not do when it comes to interacting with his spouse.
> 
> She is confused, waffling all over the place, and at best ... luke warm about reconciling. She isn't happy now ... but questions if she would be happy alone, on her own, and only having her kids part time. She wants money, freedom, and excitement ... that is what she 'desires'. None of those things are in the cards on the table.
> 
> She's not a villain, but she is a mess.


Sigh. You didn't answer my first question.

I don't think MNG has shared much on where he plays a role in this relationship or instances, real experiences that share the actual dynamics in the relationship, everything shows his wife in a negative light. 

It's as if the advice in this very long thread is saying...your wife is at fault and is a mess so you should improve how awesome you already are and put these things into place to unmessify her if you want a chance at an eventual happy relationship.

-and- everyone is taking this at face value and fact

Yeah...


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Ha! I'll keep on going even though it'll be the death of me!
> 
> To save you the trouble with the car and getting it damaged, mind you I would have paid the repair, I've just hired a hit man for $20,000, he's doing the job next week as he's a bit busy with this stuff at the moment. The cheque is in the post to you.
> 
> Bob


You are very dramatic!


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> You are very dramatic!


I'm hoping most will know the point I'm trying to make. It's not personal.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Sigh. You didn't answer my first question.
> 
> I don't think MNG has shared much on where he plays a role in this relationship or instances, real experiences that share the actual dynamics in the relationship, everything shows his wife in a negative light.
> 
> It's as if the advice in this very long thread is saying...your wife is at fault and is a mess so you should improve how awesome you already are and put these things into place to unmessify her if you want a chance at an eventual happy relationship.
> 
> -and- everyone is taking this at face value and fact
> 
> Yeah...


Well - Bob - I thought - had said the EA was merely a "symptom" and was asking who took sex off the table in the first place.

But when I repeated these same things, Bob then told me I'd misunderstood and that MNGs wife is to blame for all. 

That's where I get confused.

SHE had the EA - and it appears to have stopped.

But if the EA was just a symptom, what is the true problem?
a) MNG's wife is going off the deep end
b) MNG wasn't 'man enough' before and was too Nice
c) something in between - or entirely different - where they both share some responsibility

Sorry - back to my writing assignment:

I am not responsible for my wife's actions
I am not responsible for my wife's actions
I am not responsible for my wife's actions
I am not responsible for my wife's actions
I am not responsible for my wife's actions
I am not responsible for my wife's actions
I am not responsible for my wife's actions
I am not responsible for my wife's actions
I am not responsible for my wife's actions


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> I'm hoping most will know the point I'm trying to make. It's not personal.


Okies!


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> It's as if the advice in this very long thread is saying...your wife is at fault and is a mess so you should improve how awesome you already are and put these things into place to unmessify her if you want a chance at an eventual happy relationship.
> 
> -and- everyone is taking this at face value and fact
> 
> Yeah...


The point is, he CAN'T unmessify her. She's off the reservation, and out of control, and trying to do anything constructing WITH her is going to be impossible for the time being. She's broken. That's clear. And her being broken is not his fault, if we take what he says at face value. Worse, she's not just broken, she's trying to break him, too. Sure, we're not hearing "her side of the story", about how he failed to bring her flowers that one time or how he otherwise didn't fall into her unspoken expectations of him, all we're hearing is how they had an allegedly happy marriage until she turned 50 and suddenly nothing was good enough anymore and she decided she didn't respect her husband. 

She's unilaterally messed up the relationship. Probably terminally. The fact is, he won't be able to unmessify her, she'll have to do that for herself. All he can do is prepare for the outcome, whatever that is, without investing too much emotionally in either way it may turn out. 

I mean, what's the dude supposed to do?


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Well - Bob - I thought - had said the EA was merely a "symptom" and was asking who took sex off the table in the first place.
> 
> But when I repeated these same things, Bob then told me I'd misunderstood and that MNGs wife is to blame for all.
> 
> That's where I get confused.
> 
> SHE had the EA - and it appears to have stopped.
> 
> But if the EA was just a symptom, what is the true problem?
> a) MNG's wife is going off the deep end
> b) MNG wasn't 'man enough' before and was too Nice
> c) something in between - or entirely different - where they both share some responsibility
> 
> Sorry - back to my writing assignment:
> 
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions


Yeah. I am asking similar things but I have boobs so I get wine and checks maybe? Not too shabby! Chivalry is not dead.

The thing is, I'm not saying that MNG is not mostly right or not at fault or anything of the sort, just that this thread makes it very unclear as to what's actually going on. It's more like a diatribe as to why men should not be nice guys.


----------



## Trenton

IanIronwood said:


> The point is, he CAN'T unmessify her. She's off the reservation, and out of control, and trying to do anything constructing WITH her is going to be impossible for the time being. She's broken. That's clear. And her being broken is not his fault, if we take what he says at face value. Worse, she's not just broken, she's trying to break him, too. Sure, we're not hearing "her side of the story", about how he failed to bring her flowers that one time or how he otherwise didn't fall into her unspoken expectations of him, all we're hearing is how they had an allegedly happy marriage until she turned 50 and suddenly nothing was good enough anymore and she decided she didn't respect her husband.
> 
> She's unilaterally messed up the relationship. Probably terminally. The fact is, he won't be able to unmessify her, she'll have to do that for herself. All he can do is prepare for the outcome, whatever that is, without investing too much emotionally in either way it may turn out.
> 
> I mean, what's the dude supposed to do?


If he wants to be in this relationship and keep his family in tact then I think he needs to recognize that she is a mess for a reason and until he understands, empathizes with and addresses those reasons, he doesn't have a chance in hell of doing anything besides making the end of the relationship a little less painful for himself.

That's what I see most men here doing...prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Yuck.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Yeah. I am asking similar things but I have boobs so I get wine and checks maybe? Not too shabby! Chivalry is not dead.
> 
> The thing is, I'm not saying that MNG is not mostly right or not at fault or anything of the sort, just that this thread makes it very unclear as to what's actually going on. It's more like a diatribe as to why men should not be nice guys.


Well - I have the word "Nice" in my name - and I've developed a reputation for living up to it. Your boobs may actually be an advantage compared to my background here.

Where I truly get confused is when I try to figure out if people are really trying to help him SAVE his marriage?

Should saving his marriage be THE goal? If his wife is truly bat$hit crazy and unstable, why bother with all of this other stuff? If she truly doesn't love him - which sounds totally possible - why bother?

And if he IS trying to save the marriage, he will NEED to LISTEN to her at some point in order to figure out why she sought out this other man in order to help make sure it never happens again. And she won't truly open up to him unless she feels comfortable and loved.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Well - Bob - I thought - had said the EA was merely a "symptom" and was asking who took sex off the table in the first place.
> 
> But when I repeated these same things, Bob then told me I'd misunderstood and that MNGs wife is to blame for all.
> 
> That's where I get confused.
> 
> SHE had the EA - and it appears to have stopped.
> 
> But if the EA was just a symptom, what is the true problem?
> a) MNG's wife is going off the deep end
> b) MNG wasn't 'man enough' before and was too Nice
> c) something in between - or entirely different - where they both share some responsibility
> 
> Sorry - back to my writing assignment:
> 
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions
> I am not responsible for my wife's actions


My goodness NG, I wrote Mrs MNG is responsible for her own behaviour. That is a very far cry from saying “The failure of the marriage is all Mrs MNG’s fault”.

They will not get to agree the issues whatever they are and have even the smallest chance of a successful reconciliation until Mrs MNG owns her behaviour and her values and beliefs that led to it and is totally committed to her marriage. Mr MNG is still totally committed. There is a massive difference in those two standpoints.

As is there a massive difference between them about “what marriage is all about”.

Keep on doing those lines! I don’t do press ups!

Bob


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Well - I have the word "Nice" in my name - and I've developed a reputation for living up to it. Your boobs may actually be an advantage compared to my background here.
> 
> Where I truly get confused is when I try to figure out if people are really trying to help him SAVE his marriage?
> 
> Should saving his marriage be THE goal? If his wife is truly bat$hit crazy and unstable, why bother with all of this other stuff? If she truly doesn't love him - which sounds totally possible - why bother?
> 
> And if he IS trying to save the marriage, he will NEED to LISTEN to her at some point in order to figure out why she sought out this other man in order to help make sure it never happens again. And she won't truly open up to him unless she feels comfortable and loved.


We agree on this and are seeing the same things. Yes, this is not going to help your "niceguy" image in the least. If you're looking to be a bada$$ alpha I have some advice...continually agree to disagree with me. :rofl:


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Yeah. I am asking similar things but I have boobs so I get wine and checks maybe? Not too shabby! Chivalry is not dead.


Trenton, you’re either being ironic, or you’re just not getting it. Which is it?

Bob


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> If he wants to be in this relationship and keep his family in tact then I think he needs to recognize that she is a mess for a reason and until he understands, empathizes with and addresses those reasons, he doesn't have a chance in hell of doing anything besides making the end of the relationship a little less painful for himself.
> 
> That's what I see most men here doing...prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Yuck.


The "reason" is changing hormones, mid-life crisis, frustrated financial and social expectations, and possible mental illness on her part. Oh, and she doesn't love him, and is using the lack of "spark" and "chemistry" to justify her craziness, then blame MNG for it instead of taking responsibility. 

MNG faithfully executed his duties for 15 years, with _her_ leading, and gets this emotional sh!tstorm sprung on him from out of nowhere because _she couldn't handle her business_. While there may have been contributing factors and extenuating circumstances on both sides, the fact was _she_ was the one who is flaking. So what's to understand? What's to empathize with? And how is he supposed to address the fact that she's behaving without regard to reason or accountability?

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best is a standard male fall-back position when it comes to dealing with the women in our lives. It might seem yucky, but there are very compelling reasons why we go there.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Sigh. You didn't answer my first question.


Oh that? I'm projecting ... brilliantly and correctly mind you. I did this dance, for 2 years.



> I don't think MNG has shared much on where he plays a role in this relationship or instances, real experiences that share the actual dynamics in the relationship, everything shows his wife in a negative light.


I've answered this one before. I don't need to know. Doesn't matter. We can safely presume that he was passive, accommodating, and from his wife's perspective; unexciting.
My nice guy radar tells me that the current issues from her frame of reference are, and have been about _how he makes her feel_. Those are valid concerns. Her response in dealing with them however, was completely inappropriate. 



> It's as if the advice in this very long thread is saying...your wife is at fault and is a mess so you should improve how awesome you already are and put these things into place to unmessify her if you want a chance at an eventual happy relationship.


This thread has become a nice guy proving ground and incubator. It _speaks_ to a large number of men that have faced or are facing similar circumstances. Virtually all of those men wanted to save their marriages. It still has very little to do with blaming your wife or trying to 'fix' her.

It's personal. It's about boundaries, developing a code of conduct, being honorable, honest, dependable, worthy of respect and love.

This is why I still and will continue to, unapologetically refer to the process as 'Manning Up'.

Girls can do it too ... but it's still 'Manning Up'. Quite frankly, Mrs. Nice Guy needs to do some manning up herself.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Trenton, you’re either being ironic, or you’re just not getting it. Which is it?
> 
> Bob


I'm being ironic Bob. I really like you, even if you won't play a game of golf with me.


----------



## IanIronwood

nice777guy said:


> Well - I have the word "Nice" in my name - and I've developed a reputation for living up to it. Your boobs may actually be an advantage compared to my background here.
> 
> Where I truly get confused is when I try to figure out if people are really trying to help him SAVE his marriage?
> 
> Should saving his marriage be THE goal? If his wife is truly bat$hit crazy and unstable, why bother with all of this other stuff? If she truly doesn't love him - which sounds totally possible - why bother?
> 
> And if he IS trying to save the marriage, he will NEED to LISTEN to her at some point in order to figure out why she sought out this other man in order to help make sure it never happens again. And she won't truly open up to him unless she feels comfortable and loved.


The goal is not to save the marriage. The goal is to help MNG find peace and happiness, with her or without her. Saving the marriage at all costs isn't the goal, because it's pretty clear that SHE isn't willing -- yet -- to do what's necessary. Without a firm commitment in that direction, trying to save this marriage is like trying to save a drowning man who doesn't want to be saved. 

He has been listening to her. She's unhappy. She doesn't like him "in that way" and probably never did. She told him to his face that she settled for him, that she was never in love with him, and that she never felt any passion for him. She hasn't had any problem at all "opening up" to him -- she's opened up like a hand-grenade, and with as much accuracy and devastation.

The problem with the relationship wasn't that there just weren't enough darn kisses and cuddles. The problem with the relationship is that she's decided that he is no longer adequate, but it's in her vested interest to stay with him, and therein lies her conflict.

HIS conflict is whether to throw good emotional money after bad and ride this thing into the ground or to cut his losses and move on. That's the issue we're trying to help him with.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Oh that? I'm projecting ... brilliantly and correctly mind you. I did this dance, for 2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> I've answered this one before. I don't need to know. Doesn't matter. We can safely presume that he was passive, accommodating, and from his wife's perspective; unexciting.
> My nice guy radar tells me that the current issues from her frame of reference are, and have been about _how he makes her feel_. Those are valid concerns. Her response in dealing with them however, was completely inappropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread has become a nice guy proving ground and incubator. It _speaks_ to a large number of men that have faced or are facing similar circumstances. Virtually all of those men wanted to save their marriages. It still has very little to do with blaming your wife or trying to 'fix' her.
> 
> It's personal. It's about boundaries, developing a code of conduct, being honorable, honest, dependable, worthy of respect and love.
> 
> This is why I still and will continue to, unapologetically refer to the process as 'Manning Up'.
> 
> Girls can do it too ... but it's still 'Manning Up'. Quite frankly, Mrs. Nice Guy needs to do some manning up herself.


Let me ask you this flat out...
You've man'ed up. You embraced the process and set boundaries, stood firm and on solid ground.

Has it worked for you? Are you happy? What does MNG really have to look forward to at the end of this process?

What if you could have found a different process that would actually ended with successfully saving your marriage and creating happiness for both of you? Would that not have been preferable?

I see you as being unwilling to believe that it's possible at all and so you dismiss it entirely but what if it is?


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I'm being ironic Bob. I really like you, even if you won't play a game of golf with me.


Thank goodness for that. Btw I much prefer a punch on the nose to what I got, active vs. passive aggression. So feel free anytime lol.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> Keep on doing those lines! I don’t do press ups!
> 
> Bob


????

Sometimes I swear we speak different languages Bob!!!

I have you pictured as Jimmy Buffet - but different - for some reason.

Lines = my writing?

What are press ups?

Other than this I think I agree with your last post. Correct - I put words in your mouth in claiming that SHE was responsible for all.

In a perfect world, he will wait until she's consistent in committing fully to the marriage.

But I guess to me that seems like waiting for the fish to attach itself to the hook and give a tug on the line letting you know its ready to be reeled in.

Watch the line and if she's nibbling enough, give it a tug...


----------



## eagleclaw

nice777guy said:


> Well - I have the word "Nice" in my name - and I've developed a reputation for living up to it. Your boobs may actually be an advantage compared to my background here.
> *
> For the record, boobs are always an advantage!*
> 
> Where I truly get confused is when I try to figure out if people are really trying to help him SAVE his marriage?
> 
> *I think everyone is.*
> 
> Should saving his marriage be THE goal? If his wife is truly bat$hit crazy and unstable, why bother with all of this other stuff?
> 
> *His description is that things weren't always this way. They got a whole lot worse the last couple of years. I don't think people just suddenly become batsh!t crazy @ 50. But if she is batsh!t crazy then I agree with your premise.*
> 
> If she truly doesn't love him - which sounds totally possible - why bother?
> 
> *Again, if she doesn't and can't find it again I agree with you. But theres no way to know for sure. And since he has so many years and a family invested with her he needs to give it every oppertunity to work. She may still love him even if she doesn't currently feel it. Time will tell, and a lot of that will be made or broke based on his actions. That's where the "be the best man" you can be, and go back to the person you were when she did love you comes into play. All he can do is his best and she where she falls.*
> 
> And if he IS trying to save the marriage, he will NEED to LISTEN to her at some point in order to figure out why she sought out this other man in order to help make sure it never happens again. And she won't truly open up to him unless she feels comfortable and loved.
> 
> *You are 100% correct. But he can't do this until she starts taking responsibility for her own actions and quits using him as a scapegoat. Additionally, until she decides she wants to work on this marriage, takes some reponsiblity and puts some effort into it - he can't provide her comfort and love when she has none to give him.*


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> Let me ask you this flat out...
> You've man'ed up. You embraced the process and set boundaries, stood firm and on solid ground.
> 
> Has it worked for you? Are you happy? What does MNG really have to look forward to at the end of this process?
> 
> What if you could have found a different process that would actually ended with successfully saving your marriage and creating happiness for both of you? Would that not have been preferable?
> 
> I see you as being unwilling to believe that it's possible at all and so you dismiss it entirely but what if it is?


My story? Went through a 6 month dry spell, was headed towards a total NG package with all the trimmings. Did some research into female sexual psychology. Leasrned some interesting things they don't like to talk about in Women's Studies class. Manned _up_. Now I'm happy, I have a happy wife, happy marriage, and I get laid 3-4 times a week, more if I want. (for a guy, yes, that's a metric for a successful relationship).

If you can propose an alternate process that achieves all of that without surgical intervention, I'd love to hear it. And I'm being dead serious. What, exactly, should MNG to rescue his wife without manning up?


----------



## Conrad

Love is a decision


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Let me ask you this flat out...
> You've man'ed up. You embraced the process and set boundaries, stood firm and on solid ground.
> 
> Has it worked for you?


 Absolutely.


> Are you happy?


 Too broad. Happy with the outcome? No. I've stated as much. But I accept the outcome. It hasn't been my emotional undoing. In general? I am content.



> What does MNG really have to look forward to at the end of this process?


 Feeling in control _of himself_ regardless of what the end of the process looks like.



> What if you could have found a different process that would actually ended with successfully saving your marriage and creating happiness for both of you? Would that not have been preferable?


 Preferable? Sure. _Under the right circumstances._ Those circumstances and that imaginary process never manifested.



> I see you as being unwilling to believe that it's possible at all and so you dismiss it entirely but what if it is?


Then you don't really see me. Believing it was possible was why I remained married, but focused on what *I* needed to do. You know why it didn't work? Because what I needed to do remained her focus as well. Hopefully you can understand why that is simply a non-starter. Just like the case of MNG.


----------



## MEM2020

*sleeping arrangements*

Love is a choice. Passion not so much. 

Self respect is DEFINITELY an ongoing series of choices. 

Sharing a celibate marital bed conveys a subtext: "Do you love me? Do you want me? I am here for you. Do you love me? Do you want me"?

I am getting turned off just typing this. I would gladly sleep on the floor before emasculating MYSELF that way. 





Conrad said:


> Love is a decision


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Love is a decision


Not a lot of people know that. It's when we decide for whatever reasons not to love that the end happens. It's usually associated with a lot of pain and a final sense of helplessness, that things will forever remain the same.

MNG isn't there yet, he still has hope and commitment, and maybe he never will be there.


----------



## Trenton

IanIronwood said:


> My story? Went through a 6 month dry spell, was headed towards a total NG package with all the trimmings. Did some research into female sexual psychology. Leasrned some interesting things they don't like to talk about in Women's Studies class. Manned _up_. Now I'm happy, I have a happy wife, happy marriage, and I get laid 3-4 times a week, more if I want. (for a guy, yes, that's a metric for a successful relationship).
> 
> If you can propose an alternate process that achieves all of that without surgical intervention, I'd love to hear it. And I'm being dead serious. What, exactly, should MNG to rescue his wife without manning up?


OK, don't take offense, but seeing you heading towards the NiceGuy package is very hard for me to do.

I wish I could offer a package that worked to help men understand their women and women understand their men. I'm getting from the Men's Clubhouse that men obviously prefer a set of instructions and how to's and this is not my strong point. I can only offer my own experience, interpretation of what others are writing of their experience and thoughts on the matter. I'm more than willing to and will try to here.

I don't think manning up is a bad thing. I think it helps men become more of themselves and in doing this gives them more to offer women they love as well provides a sense of inner security in who they are. I didn't always feel this way but have come to see it this way. In extreme I think it will hurt a relationship.

I don't see it as a solution for relationships where resentments, hurts and distance is the biggest problem in a relationship. 

I don't feel that I can really offer MNG much advice because he doesn't seem to know anything about his wife and how or why she feels and behaves the way she does. If we dismiss her as a mid-life mess of a woman, we will never be able to truly help MNG. We will only be helping lead him further away from his wife.

My relationship is not a good one to correlate to MNG's so I won't (intimacy and sex were never lacking) but a very close friend shares a similar story. 

She was a great wife and mother for the first twelve years of her relationship with her husband. She did the bulk of the house chores and child duties and worked full time. She wanted to work so this wasn't a problem. Her husband also worked full time and did a small share of house chores but was great with his hands and did things like build their deck and remodel the house. He went away from time to time on hunting trips and did other things with "the boys". He was a man's man and not very interested in romance, talking about feelings or gift giving but it didn't seem to bother her.

They seemed happy from the outside looking in during this time. It was strange because I would look at their relationship and think...If I were her I would be miserable! 

Fast forward to about a year ago. She starts calling me up and acting strangely. She's dealing with her older children less and going out with girlfriends more. She seems all together different. It was confusing. 

Then at dinner she tells me she is seeing a man at her job...they hadn't had sex but they'd kissed and she was considering divorce.

She starts telling me how her husband never made her feel loved, they hadn't had sex in over a year, she felt unattractive, unappreciated and unloved by him and had the entire course of the relationship.

I watch her corner her man's man husband. She flat out tells him out of the blue she wants a divorce. She can't stand to be in a sexless, loveless marriage one moment longer. She doesn't love him anymore.

He is shell shocked and confused. 

He actually woman's up in response. He becomes romantic suddenly writing her love letters. He shows a greater interest in family time. He starts working out and getting in shape. He goes to counseling. She goes to counseling.

He almost turned from a man up guy to a nice guy in response to her. She is relentless and clear on how miserable their relationship has made them. She even convinced him in to believing that she deserved a trip to Hawaii (even though he had no idea that the OM would be there) and he said...yes, you do!

Now from the outside looking in, it was obvious to me that she was in the affair cloud, suffering from a little bit of a mid-life crisis (she is 38) and questioning each and every detail of her life...fully believing her husband was at fault for each bit that was wrong.

I knew that most of her resentments and emotions about her relationship were valid. I'd lived them with her and remember the tears and conversations. She never vocalized them to her husband though and the two of them literally grew apart.

Now they're still together and going through the painful and long process of re-inventing a relationship. The OM is out of the picture and she's recovered into having a more neutral view in regards to fault and blame. 

Last I spoke to her she had given her husband a Sex Bucket List and they were working on it together.

*My whole point, from this very LOOOOONG example, is that even if MNG's wife is acting irrational and messy, her feelings and thoughts are legitimate. If he wants to save the marriage he needs to get her to a point where she can speak about them openly, gain perspective and begin to appreciate and love what they do/did have. If his whole tactic is to turn away until she behaves in a way that suits him, she will let him.

It comes down, each and every time, to what one wants. He can't make her love him but I'm not convinced that she doesn't. I think she feels disappointed and sad about where her life is and wants to place blame. It's not constructive and it will eventually end the relationship. If the two of them can't connect...well, you get my point*


----------



## Conrad

Trenton,

I'm having a deja vu moment here.

I thought you were reconciled with this concept and - while not thinking it's the answer to everything - realized that it provides a man in a moribund relationship the best chance at success.

If MNG's marriage is not the best example of a moribund relationship, I'm hard-pressed to think of a better example.

P.S. I have a few "NiceGuy" years under my belt also.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Then you don't really see me. Believing it was possible was why I remained married, but focused on what *I* needed to do. You know why it didn't work? Because what I needed to do remained her focus as well. Hopefully you can understand why that is simply a non-starter. Just like the case of MNG.


I think that perhaps you did what you needed to do for yourself rather than the relationship and that is exactly what man up teaches. If you had done what she needed you to do rather than what you needed to do for you then it could have been a different outcome.

You made a conscious decision to check out of the relationship because you would not be happy being what she needed you to be coupled with the fact that she felt she didn't have to change and all the change had to come from you at her command. 

I get this -but- if both in the relationship still love one another at their core (different than thinking you've fallen out of love) then the chance to save and rekindle the relationship still exists through relentless trial and error.


----------



## IanIronwood

And it might be hard to believe, T, but I was once a complete doormat to my wife thinking that she wanted me to be "nice" to her. She said she wanted me to be nice to her, but that's not really what she wanted. Indeed, a lot of the gentlemen here would probably agree that listening to what a woman says she wants is rarely the key to giving her what she wants. There is a lot of gender-based miscommunication out there, but it isn't all because of stupid menfolk.

And while yes, MNG's feelings and thoughts are legitimate, they are not a justification for her actions. Until she stops pointing fingers and takes responsibility for her actions, it doesn't matter what her feelings and thoughts are, what matters is that she's sabotaged the marriage and probably maimed it, at minimum. Considering the number of times she's flip-flopped on the issues of contrition and separation, it's hard to take anything she says at face value. When it comes down to it, she can't be relied upon to offer a clear and concise version of what her feelings and thoughts are, nor can her words be trusted. In the face of that kind of instability, doubling down on niceness and understanding is a masochistic invitation for her to kick him in the balls over and over again, not a realistic way out of the woods.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Trenton,
> 
> I'm having a deja vu moment here.
> 
> I thought you were reconciled with this concept and - while not thinking it's the answer to everything - realized that it provides a man in a moribund relationship the best chance at success.
> 
> If MNG's marriage is not the best example of a moribund relationship, I'm hard-pressed to think of a better example.
> 
> P.S. I have a few "NiceGuy" years under my belt also.


Yes I know but then I read through it and it begins to irritate me until I have to puke up that I don't really feel that this is going to get MNG what he really wants.

Do you see details here? There's nothing to work with. The relationship is stagnate for him but not for her. She's thrashing around in the background.

I know you're right...I get stuck between understanding where you all are coming from and feeling that it is inherently flawed by its very vague nature.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton,
My marriage went through affairs on both sides. A lot happens in four decades, it is “life”. I honestly think it just a part of life and in that period of time affairs are to be expected. As they say you can’t control what happens to you, you can only control how you respond.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

IanIronwood said:


> And it might be hard to believe, T, but I was once a complete doormat to my wife thinking that she wanted me to be "nice" to her. She said she wanted me to be nice to her, but that's not really what she wanted. Indeed, a lot of the gentlemen here would probably agree that listening to what a woman says she wants is rarely the key to giving her what she wants. There is a lot of gender-based miscommunication out there, but it isn't all because of stupid menfolk.
> 
> And while yes, MNG's feelings and thoughts are legitimate, they are not a justification for her actions. Until she stops pointing fingers and takes responsibility for her actions, it doesn't matter what her feelings and thoughts are, what matters is that she's sabotaged the marriage and probably maimed it, at minimum. Considering the number of times she's flip-flopped on the issues of contrition and separation, it's hard to take anything she says at face value. When it comes down to it, she can't be relied upon to offer a clear and concise version of what her feelings and thoughts are, nor can her words be trusted. In the face of that kind of instability, doubling down on niceness and understanding is a masochistic invitation for her to kick him in the balls over and over again, not a realistic way out of the woods.


I agree with you. I am guilty of expecting my husband to be able to understand what I mean as opposed to what I'm saying. I'm also guilty of expecting him to read my mind. 

He recently printed out a copy of a poem for me "I Am An Emotional Creature". The other morning he wanted to have sex and I turned him down, which was me really being an ornery little biatch and playing with him. He said it was fine and I was asking him why it was fine and he said, "I get it. You're an emotional creature."

In the case of MNG...What if he insisted she take responsibility to her face...you know, actually be honest and intense? Why can't he talk her to death instead of ignore her? Don't you agree that most of what she is doing is begging for attention? _Why can't he go full force for what he wants...which is his wife and the saving of his relationship?_


----------



## MEM2020

T,
This is just wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. Not "immoral" wrong. Simply totally "ineffective" wrong. In fact worse than ineffective it actually makes things worse. 

I didn't "make" the rules, I have simply learned what they are through "relentless trial and error - mostly error". When I "follow" the rules my outcomes are almost 100 percent good. When I breach them, the outcomes are almost 100 percent bad. 






Trenton said:


> I think that perhaps you did what you needed to do for yourself rather than the relationship and that is exactly what man up teaches. If you had done what she needed you to do rather than what you needed to do for you then it could have been a different outcome.
> 
> You made a conscious decision to check out of the relationship because you would not be happy being what she needed you to be coupled with the fact that she felt she didn't have to change and all the change had to come from you at her command.
> 
> I get this -but- if both in the relationship still love one another at their core (different than thinking you've fallen out of love) then the chance to save and rekindle the relationship still exists through relentless trial and error.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I think that perhaps you did what you needed to do for yourself rather than the relationship and that is exactly what man up teaches. If you had done what she needed you to do rather than what you needed to do for you then it could have been a different outcome.


But Trenton, every person in the world is ultimately selfish. In that we do what we do essentially for ourselves, from Hitler to Mother Teresa, obviously with very different results for humankind. It is a law of the universe.

Marriages are at the very best when both partners have the same beliefs, values, goals and objectives in life, when the relationship is interdependent with both partners naturally performing roles that bring themselves and one another “fulfilment”.

But those values, beliefs and goals change as we go through life. What was valid and worked yesterday is no longer valid and works today. It is all part of “growing up” and sometimes that growing up is initiated by a lot of pain.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

For adults, it does not seem that true growth is possible without pain.

And, what's been suggested to MNG is to allow his wife to experience the consequences (pain) of her behavior.

Yet, when things get painful, she will cry, complain, whine, bully, and prevaricate - and he often folds.

There's a reason why this thread has more than 1000 responses.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I think that perhaps you did what you needed to do for yourself rather than the relationship and that is exactly what man up teaches. If you had done what she needed you to do rather than what you needed to do for you then it could have been a different outcome.
> 
> You made a conscious decision to check out of the relationship because you would not be happy being what she needed you to be coupled with the fact that she felt she didn't have to change and all the change had to come from you at her command.
> 
> I get this -but- if both in the relationship still love one another at their core (different than thinking you've fallen out of love) then the chance to save and rekindle the relationship still exists through relentless trial and error.


Sorry T, I understand what you are trying to lay out, but I do not agree with it. That story you just told about your friend is mine in reverse. And you yourself stipulated the solution. In their case, he needed to become more invested, connected and emotional. You are illustrating that HE needed to be the engine for reconciliation ... to be what she needed him to be. Why would you believe that my case, or MNG's case or any other guy with a distant, disinterested, un-engaged, non-sexual wife should be any different?

Your circumstances are a perfect example of the same point. And to be honest, it looked dicey for a while. Your husband is trying, and importantly, you are trying too. Had it simply been a matter of you sitting back and waiting for him to screw up ... the entire process is broken. It can't work that way.

MNG's wife NEEDS to be a participant rather than a spectator.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> But Trenton, every person in the world is ultimately selfish. In that we do what we do essentially for ourselves, from Hitler to Mother Teresa, obviously with very different results for humankind. It is a law of the universe.
> 
> Marriages are at the very best when both partners have the same beliefs, values, goals and objectives in life, when the relationship is interdependent with both partners naturally performing roles that bring themselves and one another “fulfilment”.
> 
> But those values, beliefs and goals change as we go through life. What was valid and worked yesterday is no longer valid and works today. It is all part of “growing up” and sometimes that growing up is initiated by a lot of pain.
> 
> Bob


Absolutely which is why balance gets out of whack in a relationship and one does decide they'd be better off alone than dealing with the constant unhappiness and BS.

I'm not faulting Deejo in the least. I think from hearing his story that his decision made both logical and emotional sense. His wife has work she needs to do and isn't willing to. 

I get it but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a conscious decision or that it isn't always a conscious decision and that we will wonder "what if" and regret. If there is a thread of what if in MNG's mind, I think he should be told to dig deeper and be more selfless. If he loves her, he won't leave her alone in her pain and self loathing regardless of why she feels that way.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Sorry T, I understand what you are trying to lay out, but I do not agree with it. That story you just told about your friend is mine in reverse. And you yourself stipulated the solution. In their case, he needed to become more invested, connected and emotional. You are illustrating that HE needed to be the engine for reconciliation ... to be what she needed him to be. Why would you believe that my case, or MNG's case or any other guy with a distant, disinterested, un-engaged, non-sexual wife should be any different?
> 
> Your circumstances are a perfect example of the same point. And to be honest, it looked dicey for a while. Your husband is trying, and importantly, you are trying too. Had it simply been a matter of you sitting back and waiting for him to screw up ... the entire process is broken. It can't work that way.
> 
> MNG's wife NEEDS to be a participant rather than a spectator.


It's always dicey...isn't that the cool thing about life? We don't really know what will or will not happen. Marriage and love are not written in stone. We take actions and move in directions and slowly the script of our life unfolds.

My friend was not sexual with the husband either. It was a stale mate type of sex life. I remember her coming to me and asking how often my husband and I had sex and then saying, "Why would you want to do it that much?"

I think her mid-life sort of woke up a sexual longing and life longing in her and her husband was complacent at that point and so got all the blame.

SO...how do we help MNG knock the participant into his wife? Do you think manning up is the only way? Really? If we had more details (good and bad) from his life about his wife wouldn't we be better able to help him knock her into a passionate participant in the relationship rather than a crusader for the end of it?


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Sorry T, I understand what you are trying to lay out, but I do not agree with it. That story you just told about your friend is mine in reverse. And you yourself stipulated the solution. In their case, he needed to become more invested, connected and emotional. You are illustrating that HE needed to be the engine for reconciliation ... to be what she needed him to be. Why would you believe that my case, or MNG's case or any other guy with a distant, disinterested, un-engaged, non-sexual wife should be any different?
> 
> Your circumstances are a perfect example of the same point. And to be honest, it looked dicey for a while. Your husband is trying, and importantly, you are trying too. Had it simply been a matter of you sitting back and waiting for him to screw up ... the entire process is broken. It can't work that way.
> 
> MNG's wife NEEDS to be a participant rather than a spectator.


And - at their root - the rigorous suggestions are meant to obtain her full participation.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> If we had more details (good and bad) from his life about his wife wouldn't we be better able to help him knock her into a passionate participant in the relationship rather than a crusader for the end of it?


Negative.

Although I have absolutely no doubts that you are well intentioned, you are recommending taking up behavior that actually got him (me, and others) here in the first place ... letting her set the agenda and what needs to happen, and who is responsible, hoping that things get 'better'.

His choosing to change how he reacts and responds is for his benefit. The corollary is that she then has the ability to choose how she reacts and responds for her benefit.

It's an invitation to change, not an ultimatum or dragging someone kicking and screaming. She is still firmly entrenched in the blaming, kicking and screaming position.

He is trying to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Still a lot of work for both parties to do.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> For adults, it does not seem that true growth is possible without pain.
> 
> And, what's been suggested to MNG is to allow his wife to experience the consequences (pain) of her behavior.
> 
> Yet, when things get painful, she will cry, complain, whine, bully, and prevaricate - and he often folds.
> 
> There's a reason why this thread has more than 1000 responses.


That may have been true at one time, but not anymore. I'm not putting up with that crap anymore. I am simply giving her a couple of months of therapy and thinking for us to see if we want to still be married. I find her vacillations to be less intense and I find her giving the marriage more thought which I think is about right for where she is and where I am.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> If there is a thread of what if in MNG's mind, I think he should be told to dig deeper and be more selfless.


Nobody is selfless. Not even a Saint or a Martyr! It is impossible to be selfless, except of course in death, six feet under the ground.

You can get there a bit with meditation for about 60 seconds without too much practice or longer … with very much more practice. But to be selfless, to be a Martyr, no way. Anyway, even Martyrs are selfish, never selfless.

I think “selfless love” is the domain of the mother. In that a mother will sacrifice her life if she has even the remote possibility of saving her child’s life. If her child is in mortal danger a mother will not even think for a split second about giving her own life to save the life of her child. It’s a different type of love.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> If he loves her, he won't leave her alone in her pain and self loathing regardless of why she feels that way.


In a way I agree with you. However, it’s difficult to be helpful, empathetic, loving, supporting, patient and tolerant while at the same time being beaten up with the metaphorical baseball bat.

I'm taking it that the self loathing part is an add on from yourgood self. 

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Deejo said:


> Negative.
> 
> Although I have absolutely no doubts that you are well intentioned, you are recommending taking up behavior that actually got him (me, and others) here in the first place ... letting her set the agenda and what needs to happen, and who is responsible, hoping that things get 'better'.
> 
> His choosing to change how he reacts and responds is for his benefit. The corollary is that she then has the ability to choose how she reacts and responds for her benefit.
> 
> It's an invitation to change, not an ultimatum or dragging someone kicking and screaming. She is still firmly entrenched in the blaming, kicking and screaming position.
> 
> He is trying to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Still a lot of work for both parties to do.


Yes, it's been a struggle. She wants to set the agenda all the time. She is very strong willed and doesn't like to follow, but I have seen her go through phases where she is clearly following my lead, especially around my business stuff. She has completely backed off there.

I agree with Deejo on this... although it takes two to tango, for my part I was the doormat and let her walk all over me. While some women thrive in that environment, my wife did not. It tortured her and she really wanted to back off, play the more feminine role in our relationship and have me lead. She has told me a million times that and I am doing that now. It's obviously going to take some time, but we are getting there. Not sure the marriage can be saved, but at least on the next relationship I will know what to do.


----------



## Trenton

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Yes, it's been a struggle. She wants to set the agenda all the time. She is very strong willed and doesn't like to follow, but I have seen her go through phases where she is clearly following my lead, especially around my business stuff. She has completely backed off there.
> 
> I agree with Deejo on this... although it takes two to tango, for my part I was the doormat and let her walk all over me. While some women thrive in that environment, my wife did not. It tortured her and she really wanted to back off, play the more feminine role in our relationship and have me lead. She has told me a million times that and I am doing that now. It's obviously going to take some time, but we are getting there. Not sure the marriage can be saved, but at least on the next relationship I will know what to do.


It is your relationship and so you have to do what you think is best. My desire is inevitably the same as everyone who posts in this thread, I hope for happiness for both you and your wife. I really do want whatever you choose to do to work.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> In a way I agree with you. However, it’s difficult to be helpful, empathetic, loving, supporting, patient and tolerant while at the same time being beaten up with the metaphorical baseball bat.
> 
> I'm taking it that the self loathing part is an add on from yourgood self.
> 
> Bob


I think her unhappiness is a result of her unhappiness with herself but she hasn't realized it yet. Is this true for me? At times but I do recognize it which is why I can play an active role in positively shaping my marriage rather than destroying it.


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> That may have been true at one time, but not anymore. I'm not putting up with that crap anymore. I am simply giving her a couple of months of therapy and thinking for us to see if we want to still be married. I find her vacillations to be less intense and I find her giving the marriage more thought which I think is about right for where she is and where I am.


Brother, I am glad to hear this.

But, the sleeping in the same bed with sex off-limits represents the former behavior.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> Brother, I am glad to hear this.
> 
> But, the sleeping in the same bed with sex off-limits represents the former behavior.


I'm outta that bed until there is some reconcilliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I'm outta that bed until there is some reconcilliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good to hear.


----------



## Amplexor

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I'm outta that bed until there is some reconcilliation.


OK, I'll get hammered for this but when my marriage went sexless we continued to sleep in the same bed. I knew it was going to be awhile before intimacy would restart but I refused to throw a hissy fit and leave the bed. When my wife suggested she wasn't comfortable with me in the same bed with her, I reminded her that there was a perfectly good guest bedroom for her. She declined. During the entire process no-one left the bedroom. While the bed was of no use for sex, with careers, kids, and busy schedules it did serve as an important venue for us to talk at the end of the day. Not just the heavy stuff but the every day and small talk. When things calmed down a bit non-sexual physical touch returned in the bed and with time sexual. Me leaving the bed was never an option as far as I was concerned. That's how it worked for us.


----------



## nice777guy

Amplexor said:


> OK, I'll get hammered for this but when my marriage went sexless we continued to sleep in the same bed. I knew it was going to be awhile before intimacy would restart but I refused to throw a hissy fit and leave the bed. When my wife suggested she wasn't comfortable with me in the same bed with her, I reminded her that there was a perfectly good guest bedroom for her. She declined. During the entire process no-one left the bedroom. While the bed was of no use for sex, with careers, kids, and busy schedules it did serve as an important venue for us to talk at the end of the day. Not just the heavy stuff but the every day and small talk. When things calmed down a bit non-sexual physical touch returned in the bed and with time sexual. That's how it worked for us.


:iagree:

MNG is too tall to sleep in other beds.  He can't MAKE her leave the bed - although I like Deejo's diet driven climate control idea.

You stay on your side - facing away - and pay her NO attention.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> You stay on your side - facing away - and pay her NO attention.


Or you get the business end of my chili-cheese-fries, bacon and bean soup, with crab cakes and broccoli dinner.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> MNG is too tall to sleep in other beds. He can't MAKE her leave the bed - although I like Deejo's diet driven climate control idea.
> 
> You stay on your side - facing away - and pay her NO attention.


Or buy a blow up bed.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Amplexor said:


> OK, I'll get hammered for this but when my marriage went sexless we continued to sleep in the same bed. I knew it was going to be awhile before intimacy would restart but I refused to throw a hissy fit and leave the bed. When my wife suggested she wasn't comfortable with me in the same bed with her, I reminded her that there was a perfectly good guest bedroom for her. She declined. During the entire process no-one left the bedroom. While the bed was of no use for sex, with careers, kids, and busy schedules it did serve as an important venue for us to talk at the end of the day. Not just the heavy stuff but the every day and small talk. When things calmed down a bit non-sexual physical touch returned in the bed and with time sexual. Me leaving the bed was never an option as far as I was concerned. That's how it worked for us.


It wasn't like we laid down to sleep at the same time like the old days, she was asleep and I wanted to get a good night's sleep after a couple of days I stopped and then slept there again 2 nights ago and last night I didn't. We did talk a little in the morning when I did, but she was clearly uncomfortable with me being in bed with her after about 3 months of sleeping on her own. It could be the reverse of what some of these guys are saying, I was actually forcing my way into the bed without a care for her. Asserting myself into my bed...


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I think her unhappiness is a result of her unhappiness with herself but she hasn't realized it yet. Is this true for me? At times but I do recognize it which is why I can play an active role in positively shaping my marriage rather than destroying it.


You've come a long way Trenton. You are no longer on the path of self destruction. I've seen that.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Amplexor said:


> OK, I'll get hammered for this but when my marriage went sexless we continued to sleep in the same bed. I knew it was going to be awhile before intimacy would restart but I refused to throw a hissy fit and leave the bed. When my wife suggested she wasn't comfortable with me in the same bed with her, I reminded her that there was a perfectly good guest bedroom for her. She declined. During the entire process no-one left the bedroom. While the bed was of no use for sex, with careers, kids, and busy schedules it did serve as an important venue for us to talk at the end of the day. Not just the heavy stuff but the every day and small talk. When things calmed down a bit non-sexual physical touch returned in the bed and with time sexual. Me leaving the bed was never an option as far as I was concerned. That's how it worked for us.


I’m guessing but I would say that neither of you were afraid of the other. You both felt “comfortable and safe”. And perhaps as importantly you were both prepared to be “vulnerable”. A lot is lost when a partner will no longer be vulnerable.

Bob


----------



## OOE

Trenton,

I think you have difficulties understanding the reasons for these concepts (alpha or "manning up" and "the 180") because you're looking at them through the lens of your own relationship (MNG did that for a while, too).

The issue isn't about MNG retreating from the relationship. It's about Mrs. MNG. The 180 shows her that if she wants to repair their marriage, she must come to him. That will likely be her first submissive act in a long, long time. MNG isn't deciding anything by doing the 180. Neither is he forcing her to make any specific decision. He's just telling her through his actions that she can't continue getting the parts of the relationship she wants while ignoring (or looking elsewhere) for the rest.

At its core, it's a position that shows much more self assurance than his previous actions did. Instead of the "what can I do? what do you want? what's wrong? Can I have?" submissive position, it's the position of someone who's not being walked all over. Most importantly, it's part of what she's said over and over - she wants MNG to lead. Leaders don't follow; they are followed. They don't chase; they are chased.

As far as the Alpha thing (I prefer that term to "manning up"), it's about wiring.

We were wired for relationships long before there were vacuums, washing machines, two-career households, diapers, minivans, and most of the other "stuff" that is so central to our lives today. Todays "stuff" demands that a man become domestic. That's cool.

However, over time, this can become such a focus that a man loses the parts of his makeup that made him most attractive to his SO when they met. This is when a woman will say, "I just want you to lead" or "we're really like two roommates" or as my ExW used to say, "I need you to be a man."

These forgotten parts are much of the hard-wiring that make men men. Specifically, they are the Alpha behaviors. It's not about meanness nor again is it about control. It's about regaining a bit of the testosterone-laced edginess that came naturally when we were single. Subconsciously, these things tend to be attractive to women - it's part of the wiring.

The goal isn't to become all Alpha. It's to bring back the Alpha parts we've lost (or given up).


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Or you get the business end of my chili-cheese-fries, bacon and bean soup, with crab cakes and broccoli dinner.


Nothing fires up the night like fiber.


----------



## MEM2020

Deej,
As usual I read your posts and think - yep - right on the money. 

I often hear it said that men are terrible listeners. Maybe underneath it all I am a woman. This is the typical structure of MNG and his W's conversations. 

Her: You are (a bunch of negative descriptors) lacking in leadership, unsexy, a bad provider, .....

Her: (Some type of threat or ugly consequence). I am moving out. I am divorcing you. I am never going to have sex with you. 

Her: I am angry, sex starved, resentful and it is YOUR fault because you - see long varying list of faults above

Her: One last thing - you have always been a substandard partner and I have never been attracted to you and I just can't take it any more. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Clearly she has some valid points. And if MNG does not address them his marriage is over even if she stays in the house. 

The one theme that runs through all his responses is that he is totally focused on her - instead of focusing on improving himself for HIM, and on demanding that she behave respectfully. 






Deejo said:


> Negative.
> 
> Although I have absolutely no doubts that you are well intentioned, you are recommending taking up behavior that actually got him (me, and others) here in the first place ... letting her set the agenda and what needs to happen, and who is responsible, hoping that things get 'better'.
> 
> His choosing to change how he reacts and responds is for his benefit. The corollary is that she then has the ability to choose how she reacts and responds for her benefit.
> 
> It's an invitation to change, not an ultimatum or dragging someone kicking and screaming. She is still firmly entrenched in the blaming, kicking and screaming position.
> 
> He is trying to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Still a lot of work for both parties to do.


----------



## Amplexor

MisterNiceGuy said:


> but she was clearly uncomfortable with me being in bed with her after about 3 months of sleeping on her own. It could be the reverse of what some of these guys are saying, I was actually forcing my way into the bed without a care for her. Asserting myself into my bed...


1.) She won't get comfortable with you in the bed until you are there.
2.) This is not just about her wants it's about yours too.
3.) How do you assert yourself into *your own bed*???


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> Nothing fires up the night like fiber.


A few yeasty beers will do it for me!


----------



## MEM2020

I think we are wise enough not to hammer you for anything Amp. You navigated a very treacherous set of rapids and came out the other side into a great place. 

I wonder if your situation was different than that of MNG. I didn't think your W did this aggressive cycle of divorce / separation / threats of permanent sexlessness with you. 




Amplexor said:


> OK, I'll get hammered for this but when my marriage went sexless we continued to sleep in the same bed. I knew it was going to be awhile before intimacy would restart but I refused to throw a hissy fit and leave the bed. When my wife suggested she wasn't comfortable with me in the same bed with her, I reminded her that there was a perfectly good guest bedroom for her. She declined. During the entire process no-one left the bedroom. While the bed was of no use for sex, with careers, kids, and busy schedules it did serve as an important venue for us to talk at the end of the day. Not just the heavy stuff but the every day and small talk. When things calmed down a bit non-sexual physical touch returned in the bed and with time sexual. Me leaving the bed was never an option as far as I was concerned. That's how it worked for us.


----------



## Amplexor

MEM11363 said:


> I think we are wise enough not to hammer you for anything Amp. You navigated a very treacherous set of rapids and came out the other side into a great place.
> 
> I wonder if your situation was different than that of MNG. I didn't think your W did this aggressive cycle of divorce / separation / threats of permanent sexlessness with you.


You are correct MEM. Most importantly my wife doesn't have a manipulative bone in her body. As uncomfortable as it was she let me know exactly where we stood. I didn't have MNG's added challenge of a moving target.


----------



## MEM2020

QFT




OOE said:


> Trenton,
> 
> I think you have difficulties understanding the reasons for these concepts (alpha or "manning up" and "the 180") because you're looking at them through the lens of your own relationship (MNG did that for a while, too).
> 
> The issue isn't about MNG retreating from the relationship. It's about Mrs. MNG. The 180 shows her that if she wants to repair their marriage, she must come to him. That will likely be her first submissive act in a long, long time. MNG isn't deciding anything by doing the 180. Neither is he forcing her to make any specific decision. He's just telling her through his actions that she can't continue getting the parts of the relationship she wants while ignoring (or looking elsewhere) for the rest.
> 
> At its core, it's a position that shows much more self assurance than his previous actions did. Instead of the "what can I do? what do you want? what's wrong? Can I have?" submissive position, it's the position of someone who's not being walked all over. Most importantly, it's part of what she's said over and over - she wants MNG to lead. Leaders don't follow; they are followed. They don't chase; they are chased.
> 
> As far as the Alpha thing (I prefer that term to "manning up"), it's about wiring.
> 
> We were wired for relationships long before there were vacuums, washing machines, two-career households, diapers, minivans, and most of the other "stuff" that is so central to our lives today. Todays "stuff" demands that a man become domestic. That's cool.
> 
> However, over time, this can become such a focus that a man loses the parts of his makeup that made him most attractive to his SO when they met. This is when a woman will say, "I just want you to lead" or "we're really like two roommates" or as my ExW used to say, "I need you to be a man."
> 
> These forgotten parts are much of the hard-wiring that make men men. Specifically, they are the Alpha behaviors. It's not about meanness nor again is it about control. It's about regaining a bit of the testosterone-laced edginess that came naturally when we were single. Subconsciously, these things tend to be attractive to women - it's part of the wiring.
> 
> The goal isn't to become all Alpha. It's to bring back the Alpha parts we've lost (or given up).


----------



## Amplexor

Maybe we should all get together and form a corporation that markets "Going Alpha" Tee shirts, mugs and golf club covers.


----------



## Deejo

"Duh, Alpha = Winning."

We could take the show on the road and do a seven city tour ...


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> "Duh, Alpha = Winning."
> 
> We could take the show on the road and do a seven city tour ...


:rofl:


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> You've come a long way Trenton. You are no longer on the path of self destruction. I've seen that.
> 
> Bob


Why thank you kind Sir. The cheque is in the mail


----------



## Affaircare

May I throw in a thought here as both a female and someone who was once disloyal? 

One of the things that is so rarely discussed on this forum (because usually disloyals are not exactly welcomed with open arms) is that there is a balancing act between what the loyal spouse (LS) must do and what the disloyal spouse (DS) must do. If one does their work but the other does not, there will not be healthy reconciliation--it will probably go back to "the way it was" which is what lead to an affair in the first place. Thus, without growth and actual CHANGE (aka "doing things differently") on both their parts...chances are high that an affair will happen again. 

I bring this up because several folks here have been pointing out to MNG that he should be "manning up" and working on identifying and enforcing his boundaries...yet since we only hear the one side (aka, the LS side) it sounds rather lop-sided. I mean after all, his wife had an affair and had feelings for another man! 

So let me try to bring into focus the TWO sides that should be working right now. 

On MNG's side, prior to the affair there were issues that made the marriage vulnerable to unfaithfulness. Likewise Mrs. MNG also had issues that made the marriage vulnerable. For example, we've noted that MNG had begun to give up some of what made him the man he is; and we've already noted that Mrs. MNG was draining the love out of the marriage by withholding sex. Note that I said "The Marriage" was vulnerable because really, given right circumstances and the fact that neither knew what to protect themselves FROM...either one of them could have fallen into unfaithfulness. I'm sure if some female person had come along at MNG's work and made him feel like he was needed, appreciated, studly and desired...he would have fallen too. 

HOWEVER, that being the case, there are some distinct things that both of them need to do if they truly want to recover. First and foremost is to accept that it will never, EVER "be like it was" again. That is gone. Mourn the loss of that innocence if you wish, but the marriage you have from this point forward *WILL* be an entirely new marriage. Thus what you are building now is the foundation upon which your NEW marriage will be built. This is why we so strongly encourage you, MNG, to learn about yourself, learn about your own personality and love language and what you need so that you can effectively and clearly communicate to your partner in a respectful way. The idea is not to say "I will accept this and that and nothing less" and make her life unimaginably horrid; but rather it's to say "I want to get on the same side and become a team but in order to do that I need to tell you what I need and ask for what I want...and likewise I need to hear the same from you in a respectful way that is not a demand." 

So on the LS's side we literally preach it: "YOU CAN NOT CHANGE YOUR SPOUSE." "The only person you can change is YOU." If your DS is determined and has purposed in their mind to be a pole dancer (male or female) then you can manipulate, control, snoop and drive yourself insane but they will find a way to be a pole dancer! Furthermore, manipulation, controlling and snooping on your side are not attractive character qualities to possess! Who wants that in a parter? Sooooo...we don't even look at or consider your DS or what she should be working on--we focus on you and your issues and your character and your side of the street. She can be a whirlwind all she wants but you don't need to be pulled into the tornado with her. Let her spin and keep your side of the street clean! When YOU look at your earning and financial life over the years..are YOU happy with it within yourself? If not, then *DO* something about it and become the financial man you have the potential to be! When you look at how you spoke and treated your wife pre-affair...are YOU happy with the person you were within yourself or did you feel like you were knuckling under and "compromising" just to get crumbs? If you were dissatisfied then identify the actions you did not like and practice changing them by doing something different. Yes, it will feel unnatural and "different" because it is not the same ol' way you're used to. Do it anyway. Then how do you feel that went? Did you go too far? Not far enough? Learn from that time and do the next time a bit differently but better..until you are good at it. And don't let your wife and her antics distract you from who you are becoming. BE the man you ARE. 

On the DS's side is some pretty similar stuff actually. She can not change you (MNG) no matter how she tries, and you are not to blame for her feelings or choices. If she's feeling unhappy, other people can not "make" her feel anything so if she wants to feel happy that means she has to change things to create the happiness she wants! It's not up to someone else! She HAS TO look at herself! If she says you ignored her or would rather work than talk to her... is that because every time she spoke to you she were criticizing or belittling? Was she an attack dog always screaming and yelling? How about using sex as a weapon to "get her way" instead of viewing it as a way to show her love for her spouse physically and meet HIS need? The LS may not have been faultless but she can only change HERSELF so right now she's got to be figuring out what she did to contribute to this mess and change it! For sure we already know that the DS lied to the LS and had an affair. Know why she feel untrusted and spied on? Because she acted in an untrustworthy way and betrayed her LS's trust in her honesty. Now he trusts her to lie! Want your LS to trust you again? Well guess what she will have to earn that back by realizing that the cost of lying is that she has to put up with feeling snooped on for a while, and put up with your insecurities, and put up with your questions because SHE helped make the mess! While the LS reels and tries to recover their balance from this, her job is to face what she's done squarely in the face, admit it with no minimizing, consider what weakness it is in HER that allowed her to behave like this, and help you (MNG) get through the mess SHE made! So while the LS works on changing what lead to this, likewise she should get to know herself and her own personality, learn how to be transparent and let her spouse see the TRUE Her, practice asking for what she needs and wants in a respectful way (not demanding) and pretty much change the way she approaches marriage! The trouble is that she is not here--and as long as she is not here, she "should" be doing these things, but you can not make her and chances are good she won't figure all this out on her own. 

Now... in the instance that MNG was doing the LS's side of things, and Mrs. MNG was doing the DS's side of things (or they were at least committed to working on these things and changing themselves)...IN THAT INSTANCE I would then recommend to MNG that it would be appropriate for him to take some time off to be with Mrs. MNG away from "home, work and kids" in order to do something fun. During the affair, the DS (in their foggy justification) associates bad memories with their LS and the fact of the matter is that before the affair, the LS probably did act in a fairly hurtful way ... probably without meaning to. So once the couple is working on their side and committed to keep working HARD, I do recommend they take some time--a long weekend or even longer--to be alone together and specifically get to different surroundings and do something they BOTH enjoy or have "always wanted to do." The idea is to associate good memories with each other and begin building on a new foundation of spouse = good. The idea is to remember that you two used to be BEST FRIENDS even before you were lovers, and you two actually *LIKE* each other. During that "holiday" is the time to agree to a few things: Mutual United Understanding, answer one question a day, and care about each other's needs not your own. That is to say that you both agree to do NOTHING until you have reached a mutual understanding with your spouse so that you two are on the same team and united....agree to ask one question a day and the DS will answer that one question in full...and agree that in order to call a ceasefire to the war, you both realize that you have a commitment to meeting your spouse's needs! 

Now MNG, I hope you can see why we harp on your side...I hope you can see what would be ideal if your DS worked on her side...and I hope you can see that until she does work on her side, you will never get to the last paragraph where you actually rebuild a strong, healthy, LOVING marriage (and restoke the flame of love that she says she's missing). Part of the picture is that in order to respark that blaze, she is going to HAVE TO join in and work on herself of else it just will never work. All too often that happens, and it is just sad that some DS's find it more scary to face themselves than it is to face loosing their family and spouse. 

(...and Trenton, I hope you can see how we are not trying to get MNG to win his wife back with "games" and alpha maneuvers, but it's just his side of the street and what he has to work on.)


----------



## AFEH

Affaircare said:


> On MNG's side, prior to the affair there were issues that made the marriage vulnerable to unfaithfulness.


I don’t agree.

Let’s say for arguments sake there were issues in the marriage. There are many ways to resolve these issues. Marriage or personal counselling/coaching, learning better communication skills, getting a job or a second job to earn more money, learning and implementing the love languages, getting outside our comfort zone challenging ourselves and learning new skills etc. etc. etc.

All of these are “free will choices” we make to work on and improve our marriage and get it to the point we want it to be. To overcome and resolve those issues.

And in exactly the same way it is a “free will choice”, to have an affair. And until people realise that they will always be saying “He/She made me do it”. That is not accepting responsibility for our own behaviour.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

Bob,

Your quote remains in my signature for a reason.

But, on this one, I think you're reading Affaircare differently than her intent.

What she's saying is that MNG didn't prioritize his relationship correctly and left it vulnerable.

Now, he likely doted on her hand and foot. She likely had free reign to do whatever she wanted and he said "yes ma'am". So, technically he "listened" to her.

But, what was REALLY happening was failure after failure of fitness tests. His supine nature CONVINCED her that he wasn't man enough to take her into the future safely and securely.

Yes, her choice.

He didn't "make" her do anything.

But, leaving that window of vulnerability is on him.


----------



## Conrad

QFT

(Not bad for a Hobbit!)




Affaircare said:


> May I throw in a thought here as both a female and someone who was once disloyal?
> 
> One of the things that is so rarely discussed on this forum (because usually disloyals are not exactly welcomed with open arms) is that there is a balancing act between what the loyal spouse (LS) must do and what the disloyal spouse (DS) must do. If one does their work but the other does not, there will not be healthy reconciliation--it will probably go back to "the way it was" which is what lead to an affair in the first place. Thus, without growth and actual CHANGE (aka "doing things differently") on both their parts...chances are high that an affair will happen again.
> 
> I bring this up because several folks here have been pointing out to MNG that he should be "manning up" and working on identifying and enforcing his boundaries...yet since we only hear the one side (aka, the LS side) it sounds rather lop-sided. I mean after all, his wife had an affair and had feelings for another man!
> 
> So let me try to bring into focus the TWO sides that should be working right now.
> 
> On MNG's side, prior to the affair there were issues that made the marriage vulnerable to unfaithfulness. Likewise Mrs. MNG also had issues that made the marriage vulnerable. For example, we've noted that MNG had begun to give up some of what made him the man he is; and we've already noted that Mrs. MNG was draining the love out of the marriage by withholding sex. Note that I said "The Marriage" was vulnerable because really, given right circumstances and the fact that neither knew what to protect themselves FROM...either one of them could have fallen into unfaithfulness. I'm sure if some female person had come along at MNG's work and made him feel like he was needed, appreciated, studly and desired...he would have fallen too.
> 
> HOWEVER, that being the case, there are some distinct things that both of them need to do if they truly want to recover. First and foremost is to accept that it will never, EVER "be like it was" again. That is gone. Mourn the loss of that innocence if you wish, but the marriage you have from this point forward *WILL* be an entirely new marriage. Thus what you are building now is the foundation upon which your NEW marriage will be built. This is why we so strongly encourage you, MNG, to learn about yourself, learn about your own personality and love language and what you need so that you can effectively and clearly communicate to your partner in a respectful way. The idea is not to say "I will accept this and that and nothing less" and make her life unimaginably horrid; but rather it's to say "I want to get on the same side and become a team but in order to do that I need to tell you what I need and ask for what I want...and likewise I need to hear the same from you in a respectful way that is not a demand."
> 
> So on the LS's side we literally preach it: "YOU CAN NOT CHANGE YOUR SPOUSE." "The only person you can change is YOU." If your DS is determined and has purposed in their mind to be a pole dancer (male or female) then you can manipulate, control, snoop and drive yourself insane but they will find a way to be a pole dancer! Furthermore, manipulation, controlling and snooping on your side are not attractive character qualities to possess! Who wants that in a parter? Sooooo...we don't even look at or consider your DS or what she should be working on--we focus on you and your issues and your character and your side of the street. She can be a whirlwind all she wants but you don't need to be pulled into the tornado with her. Let her spin and keep your side of the street clean! When YOU look at your earning and financial life over the years..are YOU happy with it within yourself? If not, then *DO* something about it and become the financial man you have the potential to be! When you look at how you spoke and treated your wife pre-affair...are YOU happy with the person you were within yourself or did you feel like you were knuckling under and "compromising" just to get crumbs? If you were dissatisfied then identify the actions you did not like and practice changing them by doing something different. Yes, it will feel unnatural and "different" because it is not the same ol' way you're used to. Do it anyway. Then how do you feel that went? Did you go too far? Not far enough? Learn from that time and do the next time a bit differently but better..until you are good at it. And don't let your wife and her antics distract you from who you are becoming. BE the man you ARE.
> 
> On the DS's side is some pretty similar stuff actually. She can not change you (MNG) no matter how she tries, and you are not to blame for her feelings or choices. If she's feeling unhappy, other people can not "make" her feel anything so if she wants to feel happy that means she has to change things to create the happiness she wants! It's not up to someone else! She HAS TO look at herself! If she says you ignored her or would rather work than talk to her... is that because every time she spoke to you she were criticizing or belittling? Was she an attack dog always screaming and yelling? How about using sex as a weapon to "get her way" instead of viewing it as a way to show her love for her spouse physically and meet HIS need? The LS may not have been faultless but she can only change HERSELF so right now she's got to be figuring out what she did to contribute to this mess and change it! For sure we already know that the DS lied to the LS and had an affair. Know why she feel untrusted and spied on? Because she acted in an untrustworthy way and betrayed her LS's trust in her honesty. Now he trusts her to lie! Want your LS to trust you again? Well guess what she will have to earn that back by realizing that the cost of lying is that she has to put up with feeling snooped on for a while, and put up with your insecurities, and put up with your questions because SHE helped make the mess! While the LS reels and tries to recover their balance from this, her job is to face what she's done squarely in the face, admit it with no minimizing, consider what weakness it is in HER that allowed her to behave like this, and help you (MNG) get through the mess SHE made! So while the LS works on changing what lead to this, likewise she should get to know herself and her own personality, learn how to be transparent and let her spouse see the TRUE Her, practice asking for what she needs and wants in a respectful way (not demanding) and pretty much change the way she approaches marriage! The trouble is that she is not here--and as long as she is not here, she "should" be doing these things, but you can not make her and chances are good she won't figure all this out on her own.
> 
> Now... in the instance that MNG was doing the LS's side of things, and Mrs. MNG was doing the DS's side of things (or they were at least committed to working on these things and changing themselves)...IN THAT INSTANCE I would then recommend to MNG that it would be appropriate for him to take some time off to be with Mrs. MNG away from "home, work and kids" in order to do something fun. During the affair, the DS (in their foggy justification) associates bad memories with their LS and the fact of the matter is that before the affair, the LS probably did act in a fairly hurtful way ... probably without meaning to. So once the couple is working on their side and committed to keep working HARD, I do recommend they take some time--a long weekend or even longer--to be alone together and specifically get to different surroundings and do something they BOTH enjoy or have "always wanted to do." The idea is to associate good memories with each other and begin building on a new foundation of spouse = good. The idea is to remember that you two used to be BEST FRIENDS even before you were lovers, and you two actually *LIKE* each other. During that "holiday" is the time to agree to a few things: Mutual United Understanding, answer one question a day, and care about each other's needs not your own. That is to say that you both agree to do NOTHING until you have reached a mutual understanding with your spouse so that you two are on the same team and united....agree to ask one question a day and the DS will answer that one question in full...and agree that in order to call a ceasefire to the war, you both realize that you have a commitment to meeting your spouse's needs!
> 
> Now MNG, I hope you can see why we harp on your side...I hope you can see what would be ideal if your DS worked on her side...and I hope you can see that until she does work on her side, you will never get to the last paragraph where you actually rebuild a strong, healthy, LOVING marriage (and restoke the flame of love that she says she's missing). Part of the picture is that in order to respark that blaze, she is going to HAVE TO join in and work on herself of else it just will never work. All too often that happens, and it is just sad that some DS's find it more scary to face themselves than it is to face loosing their family and spouse.
> 
> (...and Trenton, I hope you can see how we are not trying to get MNG to win his wife back with "games" and alpha maneuvers, but it's just his side of the street and what he has to work on.)


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> Your quote remains in my signature for a reason.
> 
> But, on this one, I think you're reading Affaircare differently than her intent.
> 
> What she's saying is that MNG didn't prioritize his relationship correctly and left it vulnerable.
> 
> Now, he likely doted on her hand and foot. She likely had free reign to do whatever she wanted and he said "yes ma'am". So, technically he "listened" to her.
> 
> But, what was REALLY happening was failure after failure of fitness tests. His supine nature CONVINCED her that he wasn't man enough to take her into the future safely and securely.
> 
> Yes, her choice.
> 
> He didn't "make" her do anything.
> 
> But, leaving that window of vulnerability is on him.


Well Conrad I guess we can agree to disagree? Here are my reasons.

I was no stay at home dad. The roles in my marriage were exceptionally traditionally split between husband and wife. Some know that I don’t go in for this Alpha male stuff. But just last night I capitulated and now go along with it. Why? Over the weekend I’d helped son and partner on their allotment. There’s one guy there that some women refer to as an “Alpha Male”. Apparently one of my son’s mates seriously dislikes the guy. I made a comment like “I don’t like the guy much myself and this alpha male stuff sounds rubbish to me”. Then my son turns round and says “But dad, you are an alpha male!”.

I asked him why he thought that and he said because you “dominate”. I intend to talk to him more about why he thinks I dominate, when the times right. I know I am indeed a different person dependent upon the circumstances I find myself in. At work I was a leader and coach but a second rate manager. Essentially I knew which wall to put the ladder up and led and coached people. But I can dominate when I feel the need arises. A very big part of being that alpha male was, for me at least, being the provider for my family. Being the rock, being consistent, being understanding and all that stuff.

But guess what, this traditional, non stay at home Alpha Male husband got cheated on.



We all get put in front of “temptation”. I’ve had work colleagues knock on hotel bedroom doors in the early hours of the morning, one asked for a “light”, in her dressing gown. In my younger days I went with the temptation, I cheated. But you know what I never once blamed my wife for my behaviour. My parents taught me about personal responsibility through their tough love. I haven’t had an affair for nearly 40 years.


It is the DS’s choice if they go for the temptation in front of them. Personally, I told myself I’d never blame the other guy if my wife had an affair. I’d hold my wife totally responsible for that. In the same way that I held myself totally responsible. As I say. Affairs are a personal choice and the loyal spouse should not accept responsibility for the DS’s behaviour.

It’s the he/she “You made me do it” …. “blame game”. “I stole from you because you left the money easy to get at”. “I cheated on you because you got angry with me three years ago”. Etc. etc.

If I’m an alpha then be assured this stuff, affairs, happens to alphas as well as betas. Maybe part of being an alpha is this …. “Total acceptance of being personally responsible for our behaviour”. “The acceptance of total responsibility for the world we have created for ourselves”. Both the good aspects and the bad aspects of our world which we created.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AC,

Thanks for the insightful and in-depth post. 

My wife and I have talked that if we stay together it will be something completely different and better. IF we stay together. That is where her biggest struggle is right now, can she have a completely new relationship with me or not. 

We both created an environment where an affair was likely to happen. Neither one of us tried earnestly to engage to make things change. I was too afraid of her reactions and she was too pissed off at me. I was starting to work on things in my own mind last December. I knew things weren't right and to be honest, if she hadn't had that EA, I think we'd be in a much different place right now. We'd probably be getting down to work on the marriage. If someone handed me NMMNG book a year ago, I probably wouldn't have read it. I probably wasn't quite at rock bottom yet. 

She has said that when she steps back and looks at me, she sees something attractive and if she met me in a bar would probably engage me. But the years of resentment and anger over our perceived crummy marriage may just do her in. All that baggage is still piled up around her, although in recent conversations she talks less and less about it and has said she has "forgiven" me for our past. Only time and therapy will tell.

I know I have a lot to do for myself to get me back on track to the person I should be. She also has some work on her end. I think we are somewhere right before the paragraph, we need to warm up to each other if we are going to make this marriage work. I've seen some tiny signs of thawing, but nothing really big. I haven't spent more the 5 minutes in conversation with her in the past 48 hours. I'm getting to the point where I don't know if I can make a connection with her again unless we spend a lot of time together. It's a chicken and egg thing. Do I initiate doing more things with her? Or wait until I see signs that she is honestly willing to work on the marriage? But I know this, that if we don't spend some serious time engaging each other pretty soon, this thing is probably going to be over...


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
I am going to start a separate thread on dominance. If you have time, I think your participation will be very helpful.




AFEH said:


> Well Conrad I guess we can agree to disagree? Here are my reasons.
> 
> I was no stay at home dad. The roles in my marriage were exceptionally traditionally split between husband and wife. Some know that I don’t go in for this Alpha male stuff. But just last night I capitulated and now go along with it. Why? Over the weekend I’d helped son and partner on their allotment. There’s one guy there that some women refer to as an “Alpha Male”. Apparently one of my son’s mates seriously dislikes the guy. I made a comment like “I don’t like the guy much myself and this alpha male stuff sounds rubbish to me”. Then my son turns round and says “But dad, you are an alpha male!”.
> 
> I asked him why he thought that and he said because you “dominate”. I intend to talk to him more about why he thinks I dominate, when the times right. I know I am indeed a different person dependent upon the circumstances I find myself in. At work I was a leader and coach but a second rate manager. Essentially I knew which wall to put the ladder up and led and coached people. But I can dominate when I feel the need arises. A very big part of being that alpha male was, for me at least, being the provider for my family. Being the rock, being consistent, being understanding and all that stuff.
> 
> But guess what, this traditional, non stay at home Alpha Male husband got cheated on.
> 
> 
> 
> We all get put in front of “temptation”. I’ve had work colleagues knock on hotel bedroom doors in the early hours of the morning, one asked for a “light”, in her dressing gown. In my younger days I went with the temptation, I cheated. But you know what I never once blamed my wife for my behaviour. My parents taught me about personal responsibility through their tough love. I haven’t had an affair for nearly 40 years.
> 
> 
> It is the DS’s choice if they go for the temptation in front of them. Personally, I told myself I’d never blame the other guy if my wife had an affair. I’d hold my wife totally responsible for that. In the same way that I held myself totally responsible. As I say. Affairs are a personal choice and the loyal spouse should not accept responsibility for the DS’s behaviour.
> 
> It’s the he/she “You made me do it” …. “blame game”. “I stole from you because you left the money easy to get at”. “I cheated on you because you got angry with me three years ago”. Etc. etc.
> 
> If I’m an alpha then be assured this stuff, affairs, happens to alphas as well as betas. Maybe part of being an alpha is this …. “Total acceptance of being personally responsible for our behaviour”. “The acceptance of total responsibility for the world we have created for ourselves”. Both the good aspects and the bad aspects of our world which we created.
> 
> Bob


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Well Conrad I guess we can agree to disagree? Here are my reasons.
> 
> I was no stay at home dad. The roles in my marriage were exceptionally traditionally split between husband and wife. Some know that I don’t go in for this Alpha male stuff. But just last night I capitulated and now go along with it. Why? Over the weekend I’d helped son and partner on their allotment. There’s one guy there that some women refer to as an “Alpha Male”. Apparently one of my son’s mates seriously dislikes the guy. I made a comment like “I don’t like the guy much myself and this alpha male stuff sounds rubbish to me”. Then my son turns round and says “But dad, you are an alpha male!”.
> 
> I asked him why he thought that and he said because you “dominate”. I intend to talk to him more about why he thinks I dominate, when the times right. I know I am indeed a different person dependent upon the circumstances I find myself in. At work I was a leader and coach but a second rate manager. Essentially I knew which wall to put the ladder up and led and coached people. But I can dominate when I feel the need arises. A very big part of being that alpha male was, for me at least, being the provider for my family. Being the rock, being consistent, being understanding and all that stuff.
> 
> But guess what, this traditional, non stay at home Alpha Male husband got cheated on.
> 
> 
> 
> We all get put in front of “temptation”. I’ve had work colleagues knock on hotel bedroom doors in the early hours of the morning, one asked for a “light”, in her dressing gown. In my younger days I went with the temptation, I cheated. But you know what I never once blamed my wife for my behaviour. My parents taught me about personal responsibility through their tough love. I haven’t had an affair for nearly 40 years.
> 
> 
> It is the DS’s choice if they go for the temptation in front of them. Personally, I told myself I’d never blame the other guy if my wife had an affair. I’d hold my wife totally responsible for that. In the same way that I held myself totally responsible. As I say. Affairs are a personal choice and the loyal spouse should not accept responsibility for the DS’s behaviour.
> 
> It’s the he/she “You made me do it” …. “blame game”. “I stole from you because you left the money easy to get at”. “I cheated on you because you got angry with me three years ago”. Etc. etc.
> 
> If I’m an alpha then be assured this stuff, affairs, happens to alphas as well as betas. Maybe part of being an alpha is this …. “Total acceptance of being personally responsible for our behaviour”. “The acceptance of total responsibility for the world we have created for ourselves”. Both the good aspects and the bad aspects of our world which we created.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

We're not really disagreeing.

MNG clearly thought the supine ultra-beta approach was best. Or at least, his wife showed him that path and he dutifully accepted it.

So, he lost his "alpha". He's having a devil of a time taking it out of mothballs.

Since you've gone there, it's not a big secret that I cheated on my first wife. My alpha is strong also. In fact, what you describe "leadership vs. manager" fits me to a tee. I was born to lead, but my "manager" has been so ineffective - at times - that I defeat myself.

The thing I've heard most about me is that I strike fear into others and intimidate them. My stepchildren now confess that they feared me in the past.

So, I was clearly unbalanced.

And this is the point MEM makes so often.

It's about the balance - and the judicious application - of both alpha and beta that maximizes your chances at success.

My alpha comes up when I perceive that I'm being insulted. Keeping that strong emotion under control is heavy lifting for me. To do it, my beta has to dig deep and understand why an insult may not be an insult..... or find a way to let her know that it's coming across wrong (MEM calls it flashing the yellow light) before the tiger starts to find his growl.

MNG clearly facilitated what happened by abandoning alpha.

I think it happened to you due to character deficiencies in your wife. But, it's possible a lack of your beta characteristics gave her a gentle nudge in that direction.

I hope that's more clear.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> We're not really disagreeing.
> 
> MNG clearly thought the supine ultra-beta approach was best. Or at least, his wife showed him that path and he dutifully accepted it.
> 
> So, he lost his "alpha". He's having a devil of a time taking it out of mothballs.
> 
> Since you've gone there, it's not a big secret that I cheated on my first wife. My alpha is strong also. In fact, what you describe "leadership vs. manager" fits me to a tee. I was born to lead, but my "manager" has been so ineffective - at times - that I defeat myself.
> 
> The thing I've heard most about me is that I strike fear into others and intimidate them. My stepchildren now confess that they feared me in the past.
> 
> So, I was clearly unbalanced.
> 
> And this is the point MEM makes so often.
> 
> It's about the balance - and the judicious application - of both alpha and beta that maximizes your chances at success.
> 
> My alpha comes up when I perceive that I'm being insulted. Keeping that strong emotion under control is heavy lifting for me. To do it, my beta has to dig deep and understand why an insult may not be an insult..... or find a way to let her know that it's coming across wrong (MEM calls it flashing the yellow light) before the tiger starts to find his growl.
> 
> MNG clearly facilitated what happened by abandoning alpha.
> 
> I think it happened to you due to character deficiencies in your wife. But, it's possible a lack of your beta characteristics gave her a gentle nudge in that direction.
> 
> I hope that's more clear.


Conrad best to respond in MEMs Dominance thread ...


----------



## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> she has "forgiven" me for our past.


And her?


----------



## IanIronwood

Trenton said:


> :rofl:


Don't laugh. I'm writing a book right now entitled "Tigerblood: Charlie Sheen, Bree Olson, Sex & Celebrity in America." It's an examination of the current sexual status quo, with especial emphasis on the quest for lost masculinity. And I talk about Charlie Sheen and Pornstars.

I'm also considering including a section based on MNG's situation, actually. It's very instructive, and somewhat typical of a certain kind of relationship that's evolved in the post-feminist era.

How 'bout that, MNG? Would you like to tell your wife that her behavior is so outrageous that someone's considering basing a book on it? 

I see "Tigerblood" and "Winning" as code words for the "I don't give a damn anymore" Alpha quest in a middle-aged man's life. No, I don't condone Sheen's behavior, but I do see it as symptomatic of a much larger cultural issue.


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> She has said that when she steps back and looks at me, she sees something attractive and if she met me in a bar would probably engage me. But the years of resentment and anger over our perceived crummy marriage may just do her in. All that baggage is still piled up around her, although in recent conversations she talks less and less about it and has said she has "forgiven" me for our past. Only time and therapy will tell.


Reconciliation or a good and amicable separation and subsequent divorce both start with honest and heartfelt forgiveness. Once given, forgiveness should never be taken back.

If you have forgiven your wife for her affair, for more or less rubbishing your 17 years together and for lying to you and deceiving you then let her know you have forgiven her. How she responds to you will tell you a lot about how she handles personal responsibility and if her forgiveness was sincere or not. But be vulnerable and assume it was.

Baby steps in the 180. You reward good behaviour and you ignore bad behaviour. So thank your wife for being a forgiving person.

Bob


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Conrad said:


> My alpha is strong also. In fact, what you describe "leadership vs. manager" fits me to a tee. I was born to lead, but my "manager" has been so ineffective - at times - that I defeat myself.
> 
> The thing I've heard most about me is that I strike fear into others and intimidate them. My stepchildren now confess that they feared me in the past.
> 
> It's about the balance - and the judicious application - of both alpha and beta that maximizes your chances at success.
> 
> My alpha comes up when I perceive that I'm being insulted. Keeping that strong emotion under control is heavy lifting for me. To do it, my beta has to dig deep and understand why an insult may not be an insult..... or find a way to let her know that it's coming across wrong (MEM calls it flashing the yellow light) before the tiger starts to find his growl.


I have no intention to hijack, but want to comment on this.

Elements of what you describe here sound VERY similar to both my husband AND me...

The result is two people competing for the Alpha position.

Ever worry that you and your spouse are too similar in the "wrong" ways?


----------



## IanIronwood

Seeing a lot of talk about Alpha and Beta as if they were absolutes, but they're not. Consider every man to have a little status bar of red Alpha and blue Beta over their heads, like a videogame. Men who seem to scream ALPHA tend to have a lot of red and not much blue. Men who become NGs and doormats are mostly blue with only the faint memory of red. 

But the dudes who have a generous helping of both, those are the winners. They have enough confidence and control to go all tigerblood caveman alpha at need, but also have the comforting and supporting skills a modern man needs to deal with our post-industrial, post-feminist world.

The blue beta is skill-based, primarily, although some guys are naturally talented in that realm. You can develop your beta skills over time and they tend to get stronger with age and mature wisdom. For example, you can learn to cook, clean, change a tire, paint a room, console your daughter, do delicates properly without ruining them, and make sure Junior's homework is done every night with a minimum amount of practice, if you have the desire. These beta skills are what make you attractive as a long-term partner, but they aren't usually responsible for initial attraction and infatuation. 

The red Alpha is more experientially based, and can be built in sudden fits and starts, if you apply yourself. Working out, being successful at some task, attacking challenges and aggressively pursuing a goal are all strong Alpha traits that breed even more strong Alpha traits, namely self-respect, self-control, and positive social positioning. Alpha traits are responsible for sexual interest and infatuation, but if they fade over time then your beta skills just aren't going to fill the gap. The good news is that you can top of your Alpha in a lot of quick and easy ways, once you realize which method works best for you. But it's easiest to do it by connecting with other men and "borrowing" their masculine power. 

Now, some men are put off by bull Alphas on a job site or a in the workplace, but the fact is that these abrasive "men's men" are outstanding sources of fresh Alpha juice -- even if you hate them. Why? Because Alpha thrives on competition and conflict, just as Beta thrives on communication and cooperation. So even if you don't like the asshat at the poker table whose arrogance makes your wife cringe, by being around him, trading barbs and verbal feints, engaging in manly banter and swapping war stories and trophy displays, you feed on each other's masculine power displays, returning with a freshly-renewed sense of Alpha. 

I've worked in a lot of dives over the years, and these bull Alphas might be nearly unbearable to socialize with, but the fact of the matter is they get sh!t done. Best kitchen manager I ever knew was a flaming assh0le, but he used his control and his abrasiveness to push his accomplishments far beyond his peers. The ancient Egyptians called this type of personality "Men of Set", and while they were feared they were also very highly respected. Think about the imaginary dude in Fight Club, Tyler Durden. Man of Set.

The goal of most men, whether they know it or not, is to balance the red-blue equation to the best of their ability. The problem is that few men even understand how it works, much less what you have to do to access that kind of male power. And the wisdom to understand the propriety of using your alpha or beta skills is key.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

IanIronwood said:


> And the wisdom to understand the propriety of using your alpha or beta skills is key.


And WHEN to use either alpha or beta skills.

My husband prominently comes across, on the surface, as an "alpha." 

Last week he thoroughly vacuumed my elderly grandmother's entire house for her. (beta?)

But the day after, when I wanted to share my feelings of concern about her poor health, he had zero patience for me and blew me off. (alpha or a-hole?)

I could've used some beta-style comfort at THAT moment.


----------



## IanIronwood

AFEH said:


> Reconciliation or a good and amicable separation and subsequent divorce both start with honest and heartfelt forgiveness. Once given, forgiveness should never be taken back.
> 
> If you have forgiven your wife for her affair, for more or less rubbishing your 17 years together and for lying to you and deceiving you then let her know you have forgiven her. How she responds to you will tell you a lot about how she handles personal responsibility and if her forgiveness was sincere or not. But be vulnerable and assume it was.
> 
> Baby steps in the 180. You reward good behaviour and you ignore bad behaviour. So thank your wife for being a forgiving person.
> 
> Bob



How about, "I forgive you for the affair," (and only if you really do and can convey that sincerely) "but I'm still not convinced I want to be married to you." That way she doesn't mistake forgiveness for capitulation and an invitation to resume making you her personal emotional punching bag. Plus it takes some of the onus off of her ("Thank god, it's not entirely up to me!") as well as placing some additional psychic pressure on her ("Oh, god! It's NOT entirely up to me! I could decide to go back to him and he could _still _not want me!") which helps undermine her controlling tendencies. Sure, you're willing to work on the marriage, but that doesn't mean that your willingness is an indication that things will be okey-dokey just as soon as she decides to play again. 

That's why I'd counsel against being too quick with words of forgiveness over the affair. At this point, in the heat of things, it's too easy to misunderstand and misinterpret unless that forgiveness is accompanied by a revelation of your deepest feelings surrounding the issue.

She hurt you bad, dude. It shouldn't be too easy for her to come back from that. It's great that she's "forgiven" you for fourteen years of being a good husband and father, but don't feel obligated to forgive her right back -- for the affair, or fourteen years of being a mediocre wife.


----------



## IanIronwood

credamdóchasgra said:


> And WHEN to use either alpha or beta skills.
> 
> My husband prominently comes across, on the surface, as an "alpha."
> 
> Last week he thoroughly vacuumed my elderly grandmother's entire house for her. (beta?)
> 
> But the day after, when I wanted to share my feelings of concern about her poor health, he had zero patience for me and blew me off. (alpha or a-hole?)
> 
> I could've used some beta-style comfort at THAT moment.



Just because you wanted it, didn't mean that you necessarily needed it, or that it was good for you.

The fact is, men tend to be pretty private about everyone's health matters, and discussing an elderly relative's inevitable decline seems both intensely personal and ultimately futile to many men. "What can you do about it?" is our attitude, and since most of us aren't doctors -- and those who are can't do much about it either -- then why discuss it?

Now, if you had approached him by saying, "you know, I feel really sad about how G-ma's health has declined. I hate to see her suffer like that/live like that/so miserable when she's had such a long life," and you will invoke his beta because you are discussing YOUR feelings, which he can do something about, as opposed to HER situation, which he clearly can't. Trying to make you feel better because someone is screwing up her health care just isn't something he naturally feels able to do, because it's beyond his ability to fix.

Maybe this helps?


----------



## credamdóchasgra

IanIronwood said:


> Now, if you had approached him by saying, "you know, I feel really sad about how G-ma's health has declined. I hate to see her suffer like that/live like that/so miserable when she's had such a long life," and you will invoke his beta because you are discussing YOUR feelings, which he can do something about, as opposed to HER situation, which he clearly can't. Trying to make you feel better because someone is screwing up her health care just isn't something he naturally feels able to do, because it's beyond his ability to fix.
> 
> Maybe this helps?


It does help, thank you.


----------



## Conrad

credamdóchasgra said:


> I have no intention to hijack, but want to comment on this.
> 
> Elements of what you describe here sound VERY similar to both my husband AND me...
> 
> The result is two people competing for the Alpha position.
> 
> Ever worry that you and your spouse are too similar in the "wrong" ways?


Credam,

I don't think this is hijacking.

It's worth noting that MNG surrendered alpha under the barrage of his wife's discontent. His fitness test log looks like John Blutarsky's college transcripts.

I was shocked to find myself in a power struggle with my second wife. But, that's clearly the way the relationship has gone. She likens it to a rock tumbler, where we break ourselves against the other one until the pieces fit.


----------



## AFEH

IanIronwood said:


> How about, "I forgive you for the affair," (and only if you really do and can convey that sincerely) "but I'm still not convinced I want to be married to you." That way she doesn't mistake forgiveness for capitulation and an invitation to resume making you her personal emotional punching bag. Plus it takes some of the onus off of her ("Thank god, it's not entirely up to me!") as well as placing some additional psychic pressure on her ("Oh, god! It's NOT entirely up to me! I could decide to go back to him and he could _still _not want me!") which helps undermine her controlling tendencies. Sure, you're willing to work on the marriage, but that doesn't mean that your willingness is an indication that things will be okey-dokey just as soon as she decides to play again.
> 
> That's why I'd counsel against being too quick with words of forgiveness over the affair. At this point, in the heat of things, it's too easy to misunderstand and misinterpret unless that forgiveness is accompanied by a revelation of your deepest feelings surrounding the issue.
> 
> She hurt you bad, dude. It shouldn't be too easy for her to come back from that. It's great that she's "forgiven" you for fourteen years of being a good husband and father, but don't feel obligated to forgive her right back -- for the affair, or fourteen years of being a mediocre wife.


I was going to add some stuff about leadership, but I was getting a bit long winded.

First off MNG has to make sure he has his ladder placed against the right wall. And that’s his marriage. Does he really want that marriage? Does he really want to “Death us do part” with his wife? If the answer is not a 100% resounding yes then he should back away and find a new wall, a new life time partner.

I’m more or less Buddhist and I believe in more or less instant forgiveness for those that “sin against me”. I’m far too forward planning and thinking to hang onto that resentment, passive aggression, I will get my revenge stuff. (I am struggling to forgive my wife but it’s coming).

But. And it’s a very big but. Forgiveness without new boundaries is a waste of time because as you say it can be used and abused. So “I fully forgive you but this time and this time only”. No threats, no promises.

I didn’t recommend those words to MNG because I think he should find out just how sincere his wife’s forgiveness is and he should most definitely give her the benefit of the doubt. Forgiveness is GOLDEN.


But big trees from little acorns do grow. If Mrs MNG’s expression of forgiveness is honest, open, sincere and heartfelt then I say go with it. There is many a person from whose lips “I forgive you” is never heard. They are the “victims” of the world.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

credamdóchasgra said:


> And WHEN to use either alpha or beta skills.
> 
> My husband prominently comes across, on the surface, as an "alpha."
> 
> Last week he thoroughly vacuumed my elderly grandmother's entire house for her. (beta?)


Did you smile at him, tell him you're proud of him?

Bob


----------



## credamdóchasgra

Conrad said:


> She likens it to a rock tumbler, where we break ourselves against the other one until the pieces fit.


I've heard this analogy, and I like it.

Truth is, I was not attracted to ANY of the nice guys who crossed my path for years before I met my husband.

That alpha red is KEY to attraction. 
Maybe even THE key, at first anyway.

But what Iain says about the *balance *is true. 

A husband's brute over-alpha-izing could potentially lessen his wife's attraction to him, and at THIS point in my own marriage, some beta action (which did nothing for me when it came from a pre-marital nice guy) would really turn me on.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

AFEH said:


> Did you smile at him, tell him you're proud of him?
> 
> Bob


Yes.

Although I probably could work more intentionally at genuinely appreciating how helpful he is. I admit that.


----------



## AFEH

credamdóchasgra said:


> Yes.
> 
> Although I probably could work more intentionally at genuinely appreciating how helpful he is. I admit that.


Open question. Are you “deliberately” not being more appreciative due to any resentment you may have?

Bob


----------



## credamdóchasgra

AFEH said:


> Open question. Are you “deliberately” not being more appreciative due to any resentment you may have?
> 
> Bob


Resentment can get in the way of my appreciation.
That is more emotional than deliberate.
What is deliberate is that I'm tuning in to those emotions and working to heal my resentment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

credamdóchasgra said:


> Resentment can get in the way of my appreciation.
> That is more emotional than deliberate.
> What is deliberate is that I'm tuning in to those emotions and working to heal my resentment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's fabulous to hear. I can tell you that one of the reasons I withdrew my love and everything else that went with it from my wife was because of her resentment and her pathological inability to forgive.

The reason I asked the question was because I discovered my wife deliberately withheld any appreciation for me for the good things I’d done for her. I was naive and just thought she wasn’t a good motivator of men.

But then when she/I decided to call it a day she sent me an email declaring her appreciation of the time I stood by her side when her brother committed suicide and created carnage in 100s of people’s lives. How she appreciated me helping out with her family and helping her clear out her brother’s room and the little shrine I built for him in our living room. How I showed her the peace and quite, the benefit of lighting a candle and private prayer time in churches. How I created a wreath for her father and took her to the river he loved and let it go into the water from a ferry. And more.

All these things happened 5 to 8 years before we separated. And she’d been withholding her appreciation for something I’d supposedly done many years before those events. That’s when I lost that part of my naivety and decided it was most definitely over.

Resentment locks love out and will kill a man’s love for his woman. And guess what? I could have been just as resentful and unappreciative as my wife. But that’s not a path through my walk in life I chose.

Bob


----------



## credamdóchasgra

I understand where you're coming from.

With me, it's more like this:

I know he is a responsible, helpful, caring person who shows it through acts of service.

AND...i could more sincerely appreciate this part of his character if it wasn't accompanied by other traits.

There's a side to "helpful" that sometimes borders on "controlling."
A side to "taking initiative" that borders on "arrogant."

I'm working on my perception of both him and me.
Also--unlike your wife, I am able to forgive.
In fact, inability to forgive is one of my H's hurdles.

but maybe this is all for another thread...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

credamdóchasgra said:


> but maybe this is all for another thread...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I’m a yes and no in that. Yes in that it’s focused on other people other MNG. No in that Mrs MNG has declared her resentment for him. But also very importantly declared that she has forgiven him.

Forgiveness is GOLDEN. Without that forgiveness “love” and a successful and happy marriage has absolutely no chance of success.

Bob


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Neil said:


> And her?


I still haven't forgiven her... I don't trust her yet.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> Reconciliation or a good and amicable separation and subsequent divorce both start with honest and heartfelt forgiveness. Once given, forgiveness should never be taken back.
> 
> If you have forgiven your wife for her affair, for more or less rubbishing your 17 years together and for lying to you and deceiving you then let her know you have forgiven her. How she responds to you will tell you a lot about how she handles personal responsibility and if her forgiveness was sincere or not. But be vulnerable and assume it was.
> 
> Baby steps in the 180. You reward good behaviour and you ignore bad behaviour. So thank your wife for being a forgiving person.
> 
> Bob


I did thank her and I haven't forgiven her yet...


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I did thank her and I haven't forgiven her yet...


Well done MNG. It can take a while to work through it.

Bob


----------



## Affaircare

AFEH said:


> Originally Posted by Affaircare
> On MNG's side, prior to the affair there were issues that made the marriage vulnerable to unfaithfulness.
> I don’t agree.
> 
> 
> 
> Let’s say for arguments sake there were issues in the marriage. There are many ways to resolve these issues. Marriage or personal counselling/coaching, learning better communication skills, getting a job or a second job to earn more money, learning and implementing the love languages, getting outside our comfort zone challenging ourselves and learning new skills etc. etc. etc.
> 
> All of these are “free will choices” we make to work on and improve our marriage and get it to the point we want it to be. To overcome and resolve those issues.
> 
> And in exactly the same way it is a “free will choice”, to have an affair. And until people realise that they will always be saying “He/She made me do it”. That is not accepting responsibility for our own behaviour.
> 
> Bob
Click to expand...

Bob you always tickle me. I am not sure if I'm not communicating effectively or if somehow the words I choose indicate "blame" or "She/He made me do it" but somehow it seems that is almost always what you hear. 

Let me try again. 

What I wrote was that prior to the affair, there were actions which MSG did--either knowingly or unknowingly--that made the marriage vulnerable to unfaithfulness. This does not mean that either HE or SHE were somehow forced to be unfaithful, nor that he "made her" be unfaithful, nor that she "made him" be unfaithful. It means that some of his actions and her actions resulted in risk of, hazard of, jeopardy of, threat of, exposure to, and danger or weakness toward the possibility of infidelity. 

To restate it, as I am now, I have learned some of the personality traits and character qualities in myself that would leave me vulnerable to unfaithfulness. I have identified those weaknesses and decided how to hedge myself in order to protect myself from temptation and protect my marriage from vulnerability. In turn, this ultimately protects my spouse and in some ways involves him because I need to ask for what I need in order to protect myself. 

So this is not "blame the loyal spouse" and yet somehow, from what I can see, it seems that is almost always the way that you hear it. 

In real life, there were behaviors that MNG did that contributed to harming his marriage. From his own sharing, it seems that he "compromised" himself and his own beliefs in an attempt to make his wife happy, and as a result it actually damaged things rather than helping. That's actually fairly typical. I can't tell you how many times I've heard men say "Sure I worked 60-70 hours a week because she wanted to spend money and I thought I was showing her how much I loved her by earning money she wanted to spend." Yet in real life TWO things need to happen: 1) the working person needs to realize that spending that much time apart starts to erode the relationship and 2) the spending person needs to realize that spending more time together means less spending and less money. Thus, they will spend more time together, build a closer marriage, but the cost is less money to spend and living by some agreed upon financial limits. 

So do you see blame in that kind of balanced approach? Or do you see BOTH PARTIES working together and working on themselves honestly?


----------



## AFEH

Affaircare said:


> What I wrote was that prior to the affair, there were actions which MSG did--either knowingly or unknowingly--that made the marriage vulnerable to unfaithfulness.


Right there in the above is where I disagree.


Affaircare if I accept the above, to me it means I can blame anybody else for my behaviour.

For example. My parents were very poor, I “got” second hand clothing from jumble sales and hand me downs. There was never enough to eat, I was always very hungry. In my early teens over the weekend I worked for my father from 5 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon and I got “paid” 10% of what the other lads were paid. I got about 40% of what others got for pocket money. I felt really hard done by and stole from my father. My mother was “cute”, she spotted me twice. Nothing they did at the time worked. I eventually stole from the newsagents where I worked in the mornings during the week. My mother caught me out. I was taken to the newsagents and was told to give the manager back what I stole. He said he thought I was one of the good guys and said I’m to work a month without wages. My mother said no, it’s 3 months.

It was my parent’s fault that I was a thief because I didn’t get what I wanted. Right? Wrong. They weren’t perfect parents, who is. And neither am I. And I wasn’t a perfect husband. Who is?

I learnt about “personal responsibility” at a young age. I learnt what I did was wrong and I paid the price.

We are understanding one another but we are not accepting the other’s point of view. If I go along with your point of view then I have no need to accept responsibility for my own behaviour. For me, that would be exhibiting the behaviour of a seven year old. Not a mature adult.

People who “blame” don’t accept personal responsibility, they don’t learn, they don’t grow, they don’t mature.

Bob


----------



## F-102

If people put half as much energy into working thru problems and finding solutions, rather than trying to find someone to blame, lawyers, Jesse Jackson and Jerry Springer would be unemployed.
Isn't that how Hitler came to power, finding a scapegoat?


----------



## AFEH

Affaircare said:


> In real life, there were behaviors that MNG did that contributed to harming his marriage. From his own sharing, it seems that he "compromised" himself and his own beliefs in an attempt to make his wife happy, and as a result it actually damaged things rather than helping. That's actually fairly typical. I can't tell you how many times I've heard men say "Sure I worked 60-70 hours a week because she wanted to spend money and I thought I was showing her how much I loved her by earning money she wanted to spend." Yet in real life TWO things need to happen: 1) the working person needs to realize that spending that much time apart starts to erode the relationship and 2) the spending person needs to realize that spending more time together means less spending and less money. Thus, they will spend more time together, build a closer marriage, but the cost is less money to spend and living by some agreed upon financial limits.
> 
> So do you see blame in that kind of balanced approach? Or do you see BOTH PARTIES working together and working on themselves honestly?


Affaircare,
I’m of the belief that everybody does what they do for selfish reasons. I buy my wife a car? I do it for me. I shout at my wife? I do it for me.

What we do for ourselves is either good or bad for other people. It either benefits others, or it doesn’t. The person “doing the doing” always, every single time, does it for themselves. The Nice Guys, the Good Guys, the Bad Guys, the Alpha’s, the Betas, everybody. Sometimes others benefit from what we do, sometimes they don’t.

Good marriages are built around two people doing what they do for their own selfish reasons that are in the main, not always, never is, of benefit to their partner. Even people who “make sacrifices” are doing it for themselves, for their own selfish reasons.



With MNG’s wife, what were her own selfish reasons for having an EA? And why did she, out of the other men available to her, pick that particular OM?

From the men around her she probably could have had sex with a few of them. But she didn’t make that choice did she? So it wasn’t for sex. But she did pick “a Rich Man”, so her selfish reasons were financially driven. It was about money. The fact that he’s married to a “friend” was of no consequence to her. If OM wasn’t “rich” she wouldn’t have picked him. That’s how I see it anyway. It’s nothing to do with MNG.


A person’s selfish reasons are called “Personal Wins”. The “win” is what they get from doing what they do. Someone’s working really hard their win may well be to have the mortgage paid off 15 years early, save 200,000 in interest on the loan and own their own home in ten years time. Some personal wins are very long term. Someone has a cigarette, their “win” is very short term.

Personal wins are what motivate people. Find out what their personal win is and you know what it is that’s motivating their behaviour. You know “why” they do what they do.

It is easy to understand a person who tells you what their win is, what their motivations are.

But. DS’s compound the problem through lies, deceits, blames and denials. They will do everything they can NOT to declare their motivations, their wins for having the affair. MNG has half a chance because at least Mrs MNG has somewhat declared her personal wins, her motivations for having the EA in the first place. She seems to be somewhat “honest” with him so at least he knows somewhat where he stands.

Bob


----------



## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I did thank her and I haven't forgiven her yet...


Thats good,

however, I was mearly making a point that she put the onus on you by stating she forgave you.

She hasn't really owned her own mess at all yet.

It takes two in a marriage, and she is putting it all on you still. Yes you have been a part of it, but she still has to realise that she was the one that sought attention elsewhere instead of trying to communicate and fix it with you


----------



## Conrad

Bob,

MNG admits he hasn't brought his "A game" financially to the marriage.

Had he done so, would he have lessened the chances his wife would seek out the OM?


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> MNG admits he hasn't brought his "A game" financially to the marriage.
> 
> Had he done so, would he have lessened the chances his wife would seek out the OM?


Conrad, Who knows?

What I would suggest is that MNG writes his wife a note, something like. “I understand you are dissatisfied in your marriage to me. I really get that. And that is the reason you had your affair. I want you to be honest, really open and honest with me and I want you to write to me and tell me what you wanted out of the affair. What it is that you expected to gain that you don’t have in your life and in your marriage to me. And I want you to tell me why you needed those things, what your long term plans were. I’d like the truth, warts and all.”.

If MNG is a “lucky” man his wife will tell him the truth, warts and all. He needs that truth. Without that truth there is no “hope”.

Then it will be up to MNG to determine if he can make some changes to himself and do additional things for his wife’s “personal fulfilment”. It doesn’t mean he has to do them, but he will at least know the truth of what is missing in his wife’s life and as to whether he can fulfil them or not.

I think it will be “about money”. But money buys things, what are those things his wife wanted to buy and as importantly is she prepared to work as a team, shoulder to shoulder with MNG to get those things over time. Money can’t buy happiness. MNG needs to know what Mrs MNG’s happiness “is” that she was looking to buy.

Of course I could be all wrong about Mrs MNG’s personal wins, her motivations for the affair. That’s why the letter needs to be based on “open questions”, not closed questions for yes/no answers, “Was it for his money” type of thing.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

Bob,

I like the idea.

But, I'd frame it this way.

"You've asked me to forgive you. I'm having difficulty doing so. To facilitate the process, I'd like to know exactly what you were looking for in the other man. What - specifically - did you expect to gain? And, in your response, I don't want to hear a word about my perceived deficiencies."


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> I like the idea.
> 
> But, I'd frame it this way.
> 
> "You've asked me to forgive you. I'm having difficulty doing so. To facilitate the process, I'd like to know exactly what you were looking for in the other man. What - specifically - did you expect to gain? And, in your response, I don't want to hear a word about my perceived deficiencies."


I see the above as “defensive and accusatory”. And too many “rules”. Those things will guide/trigger his wife’s responses. She will defend, or attack. There’s too much “Me” in there.

I think the thing to do is to ask it from the third person’s perspective as much as possible … to take “me”, or “yourself” out of the equation …

“Mr MNG knows you are not satisfied with your marriage or your life in general. Where it is right now and the direction in which it was headed. Mr MNG would like you to tell him, warts and all what you were missing in your marriage and in your life”. But it sounds crazy written like that by MNG.

The “Me” in MNG isn’t working for his wife, so he steps back into the “I”, the observer of his life. Bit like a scientist, observing but not participating.

I guess you know about the iceberg analogy. We see the third floating above the water, we don’t see the two thirds below the water. It’s those two thirds MNG needs to somehow uncover and “see”. That’s why his wife’s honesty is so very important. If she wont tell him, then she’s manipulating the feck out of him. That two thirds below the water line is our “vulnerability and our truth”, some people wont show their belly type of thing.

MNG may well not like what he sees there. But the thing to do is not get mad, defensive or accusatory if his wife is honest with him because all that stuff is about “Me” in that it’s all about MNG. He just needs to observe her response, to not respond to it for a while. And while he’s observing, things will come to him and change will happen.

Bob


----------



## Niceguy13

As a another victim of nice guy syndrome,aka my nuts are in her purse. I honestly like Bob's advice a lot more.For to long I was a doormat and allowed her to manipulate me by saying I was controlling her/bullying her etc. In all truth I did and tried everything she asked of me and never got a response and in both cases I think Bob is right we (myself and MNG) have been steering the ship right at the iceberg when we should of said hmm theres some ice there lets back up and investigate before we smash our hull into it. (mutters about letting women navigate funny how they claim men always get lost and never ask for directions when not once has my wife found a place without my help or a gps.)


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Bob, that's a great idea. I might use it. It might help her crystalize the problems with our marriage in the past. At least it would help me in future relationships if I'm going that way.

She has told me many of these things in the past, but here is a short list of the things that she has mentioned to me as our main problem areas:

- Money (just in the last two years)
- Sex 
- Conversation
- Attention (the right kind)
- "chemistry"
- Emotional fullfillment
- Spiritual connection
- Listening to her
- Arguing with her

I'd divorce me too after my lack of attention! You know it takes two to tango though. At any point in the past few years she could've said "enough, let's go to marriage counseling!". It wasn't until January we started but she was already headed down the path to the EA right in front of the MC!!!

Speaking of the MC, she met with him Wednesday and we talked last night about it. She feels very trapped in this marriage right now. She feels damned if she stays and damned if she leaves but for some reason she said she feels like right now she needs to get away for a while. The MC also told her it might be a good idea for her to get away from me for a few weeks to see how it feels to be away from me, the kids and the house. Experiece the pain (or not) of being by herself, but again she can't/won't do it until she finds a job. Or not at all, she said that she is confused about the whole thing and needs more time to figure it out... Like I said before I'm giving her time to sort out feelings. Today it's only been one full month since last contact with the OM.

I have say though, I am getting weary of all this... Seeing the MC later today...


----------



## Conrad

Damn, even I'm sick of her beyatching. Same ol' same ol'

What's on your list MNG?


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Bob, that's a great idea. I might use it. It might help her crystalize the problems with our marriage in the past. At least it would help me in future relationships if I'm going that way.
> 
> She has told me many of these things in the past, but here is a short list of the things that she has mentioned to me as our main problem areas:
> 
> - Money (just in the last two years)
> - Sex
> - Conversation
> - Attention (the right kind)
> - "chemistry"
> - Emotional fullfillment
> - Spiritual connection
> - Listening to her
> - Arguing with her
> 
> I'd divorce me too after my lack of attention! You know it takes two to tango though. At any point in the past few years she could've said "enough, let's go to marriage counseling!". It wasn't until January we started but she was already headed down the path to the EA right in front of the MC!!!
> 
> Speaking of the MC, she met with him Wednesday and we talked last night about it. She feels very trapped in this marriage right now. She feels damned if she stays and damned if she leaves but for some reason she said she feels like right now she needs to get away for a while. The MC also told her it might be a good idea for her to get away from me for a few weeks to see how it feels to be away from me, the kids and the house. Experiece the pain (or not) of being by herself, but again she can't/won't do it until she finds a job. Or not at all, she said that she is confused about the whole thing and needs more time to figure it out... Like I said before I'm giving her time to sort out feelings. Today it's only been one full month since last contact with the OM.
> 
> I have say though, I am getting weary of all this... Seeing the MC later today...


Good luck. But after looking at that list of her grievances, I can only see a few things where "you" were actually the issue. The rest are her issues. If there was a lack of spark, spiritual connection, conversation, etc., that was because she neither articulated what she needed at the time and gave you the chance to take action, or she was relying completely on her subjective whim to decide after the fact that you "made" her unhappy. In either case, until she owns that -- sincerely -- then she won't be on the path towards reconciliation. That's her work to do, not yours.

I say find some way to get her away on her own for a few weeks, whatever it takes. She needs distance and perspective to sort things out, and you need time without her underfoot to do some soul searching as well. If she's feeling that trapped then the idea of escape should be welcome to her, and feel free to point out that her foot dragging on her part is either an indication of a) severe emotional laziness (which would fit, since that's what I attribute her sudden EA and unhappy marriage to) or b) a subconscious knowledge that she already has decided to stay and work on things and just needs to convince herself. Either way, some perspective and some enforced introspection away from you and the kids is likely the best way for her to work through it.

And while she's gone, you can take some steps towards independence yourself.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> Damn, even I'm sick of her beyatching. Same ol' same ol'
> 
> What's on your list MNG?


- Sex
- Sex
- Sex

Just kidding 

- Of course, quality sex. More of it.
- Taking me seriously. She never has. Dismissed me all the time. (I was a doormat)
- Emotional connection
- be my "partner" instead of leading.
- more physical touching (hugging, kissing, etc)
- be genuinely interested in my stuff
- be supportive
- Less up and down emotionally
- Let me take the lead

I'm sure there is more...

I may have to take a break from tis website. I'm going batty talking about this all the time...


----------



## LonelyNLost

Have you read "Love Must Be Tough"? Just a suggestion. I know you're having all these books thrown at you, but it's about just opening the cage door and letting her free when she feels trapped. It's about earning back your respect, because she obviously doesn't respect you. Might hit home a little. Wish you luck.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

IanIronwood said:


> Good luck. But after looking at that list of her grievances, I can only see a few things where "you" were actually the issue. The rest are her issues. If there was a lack of spark, spiritual connection, conversation, etc., that was because she neither articulated what she needed at the time and gave you the chance to take action, or she was relying completely on her subjective whim to decide after the fact that you "made" her unhappy. In either case, until she owns that -- sincerely -- then she won't be on the path towards reconciliation. That's her work to do, not yours.


Yes I know this... There was a million things she could've done to make a better connection with me over the years. She said she tried a lot of things, but nothing worked. I just remember the belittling and alpha mentality that said my way or the highway but with little in the way of constructive help.



> I say find some way to get her away on her own for a few weeks, whatever it takes. She needs distance and perspective to sort things out, and you need time without her underfoot to do some soul searching as well. If she's feeling that trapped then the idea of escape should be welcome to her, and feel free to point out that her foot dragging on her part is either an indication of a) severe emotional laziness (which would fit, since that's what I attribute her sudden EA and unhappy marriage to) or b) a subconscious knowledge that she already has decided to stay and work on things and just needs to convince herself. Either way, some perspective and some enforced introspection away from you and the kids is likely the best way for her to work through it.
> 
> And while she's gone, you can take some steps towards independence yourself.


I would say it is a little of both, her laziness and a subconcious desire to work things out. We shall see...


----------



## MEM2020

MNG,
The list below needs to read:

- Respect
- Respect
- Respect
- Anything else you wish - sex, emotional connection, etc.

If you are willing to have sex without respect, game over. 

I would not have sex with a woman who didn't respect me. It would feel degrading to me. 




MisterNiceGuy said:


> - Sex
> - Sex
> - Sex
> 
> Just kidding
> 
> - Of course, quality sex. More of it.
> - Taking me seriously. She never has. Dismissed me all the time. (I was a doormat)
> - Emotional connection
> - be my "partner" instead of leading.
> - more physical touching (hugging, kissing, etc)
> - be genuinely interested in my stuff
> - be supportive
> - Less up and down emotionally
> - Let me take the lead
> 
> I'm sure there is more...
> 
> I may have to take a break from tis website. I'm going batty talking about this all the time...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> The list below needs to read:
> 
> - Respect
> - Respect
> - Respect
> - Anything else you wish - sex, emotional connection, etc.
> 
> If you are willing to have sex without respect, game over.
> 
> I would not have sex with a woman who didn't respect me. It would feel degrading to me.


Yes... I agree. I couldn't verbalize it correctly. She needs to respect everything I am and do. Believe it or not, I think she does more now than ever in the past.


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> - Let me take the lead


What!!!!

Sir you have one MASSIVE PROBLEM.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> What!!!!
> 
> Sir you have one MASSIVE PROBLEM.
> 
> Bob





> _ - let me take the lead_


??????


----------



## AFEH

Leaders? Well they ....

Lead.

They don't ask.


----------



## nice777guy

OK! Thought that was going to be your point...but my "Bob" translator doesn't always work real well!


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> Leaders? Well they ....
> 
> Lead.
> 
> They don't ask.


HA! Of course!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Quick update: Went to the MC today. Basically all we talked about was her having to get out of the house as soon as she could. He has told her that unless she reconciles, she needs to leave to get her head on straight. I have told her that. She is having a hard time pulling the trigger. I could take the hard ass approach and pack her sh!t and get her out the door, but being gentle is more viable in the long term. He said that to resolve this issue of feeling like she is trapped, she needs to leave to feel the freedom/pain of being away from us. He said that we will probably need to take it all the way to divorce before she feels free from this feeling of being "trapped". That may even get her to actually respect me at that point... He said it was even possible that it would trigger a reconcilliation, but I told him that I would probably be long gone at that point. Anyway we are all in agreement... she needs to go soon...


----------



## Dedicated2Her

> He said that to resolve this issue of feeling like she is trapped, she needs to leave to feel the freedom/pain of being away from us. He said that we will probably need to take it all the way to divorce before she feels free from this feeling of being "trapped".


Sorry. This is BS. My wife has spoken about feeling trapped for 4 months. In fact, trapped, suppressed, and caged was the expression. In the past 2, that has subsided. She no longer feels that way. Now, I am a completely different person in the past 2 months. Total 180 and no smothering. We have slept in the same bed every night. In fact, our therapist told her if she acted on the "trapped" feeling and left the house/marriage she would regret it. Not saying you guys don't need to seperate. Just saying that particular portion is crap on the trapped feeling.


----------



## alphaomega

GOD! I can't take this anymore!

I've been lurking for weeks...dealing with my own marriage problems, but in the last 50 pages, all you've ever stated was what She wants to do, What She's feeling. Why shes upset with you. What she's saying YOU did to trash thi marriage, when she wants to leave, Whn she will be ready to work things out!

GROW SOME FREAKING NUTS, ALREADY!

You havent been taking one ounce of what Conrad, MEM, IAN, Deejo, or anyone else have been trying to tell you. It's always been about her feeling! And you sit there, waiting, hoping things will just magically get freaking better if you just give HER more time. And she FORGIVES you for all the crap you did in this marriage! AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

when do YOU come into this equation?! When do you start asserting yourself for what YOU want her to do to make this marriage work?! She is keeping you in limbo, and you just sit there and take it like a puppy...waiting....waiting....waiting....for her to make a move! And yet still...you still wait......wait...wait...for her to decide when this marriage is over an when she moves out! Right now, you are even letting her decide when YOU get to move on with your life, when you've already indicated you've had enough!

she wants to leave, but she has no money......tough! That's the consequence of her decision! She dug this for herself, let her FEEL the consequences. Yes, to you it seems unnecessarily cruel, because you are married. I get that. But think of this scenario...

You have a job. You did something bad at this job...unforgivable to the company. They want to fire you. You say...."oh. Just wait. Can you wait to fire me until I save up enough money so it's not so hard on me?"

How do you think that is going to fly? It doesn't. It's called life in the real world.

Stop this utterly submissive crap now. Start being a man. Take control. Make your own happiness. Your own destiny. She's definitely not going o do it for you, know matter how long you wait. Stop talking. More doing! You waiting on her life to get "set up just right" before you can continue with yours just proves how much of a doormat you still are.

You've come a long way. That's awesome, believe me. But you still have such a long way to go. What you are doing now just isn't working. Are you still going to keep doing the same things but expect any differnt results?

........

Whew! Ok. I'm done. Conrad. MEM. Ian. deej... Let me know if I'm totally off base here. I just felt that had to be said....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Janie

Dedicated2Her said:


> Sorry. This is BS. My wife has spoken about feeling trapped for 4 months. In fact, trapped, suppressed, and caged was the expression. In the past 2, that has subsided. She no longer feels that way. Now, I am a completely different person in the past 2 months. Total 180 and no smothering. We have slept in the same bed every night. In fact, our therapist told her if she acted on the "trapped" feeling and left the house/marriage she would regret it. Not saying you guys don't need to seperate. Just saying that particular portion is crap on the trapped feeling.


Have you had sex?


----------



## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> GOD! I can't take this anymore!
> 
> I've been lurking for weeks...dealing with my own marriage problems, but in the last 50 pages, all you've ever stated was what She wants to do, What She's feeling. Why shes upset with you. What she's saying YOU did to trash thi marriage, when she wants to leave, Whn she will be ready to work things out!
> 
> GROW SOME FREAKING NUTS, ALREADY!
> 
> You havent been taking one ounce of what Conrad, MEM, IAN, Deejo, or anyone else have been trying to tell you. It's always been about her feeling! And you sit there, waiting, hoping things will just magically get freaking better if you just give HER more time. And she FORGIVES you for all the crap you did in this marriage! AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
> 
> when do YOU come into this equation?! When do you start asserting yourself for what YOU want her to do to make this marriage work?! She is keeping you in limbo, and you just sit there and take it like a puppy...waiting....waiting....waiting....for her to make a move! And yet still...you still wait......wait...wait...for her to decide when this marriage is over an when she moves out! Right now, you are even letting her decide when YOU get to move on with your life, when you've already indicated you've had enough!
> 
> she wants to leave, but she has no money......tough! That's the consequence of her decision! She dug this for herself, let her FEEL the consequences. Yes, to you it seems unnecessarily cruel, because you are married. I get that. But think of this scenario...
> 
> You have a job. You did something bad at this job...unforgivable to the company. They want to fire you. You say...."oh. Just wait. Can you wait to fire me until I save up enough money so it's not so hard on me?"
> 
> How do you think that is going to fly? It doesn't. It's called life in the real world.
> 
> Stop this utterly submissive crap now. Start being a man. Take control. Make your own happiness. Your own destiny. She's definitely not going o do it for you, know matter how long you wait. Stop talking. More doing! You waiting on her life to get "set up just right" before you can continue with yours just proves how much of a doormat you still are.
> 
> You've come a long way. That's awesome, believe me. But you still have such a long way to go. What you are doing now just isn't working. Are you still going to keep doing the same things but expect any differnt results?
> 
> ........
> 
> Whew! Ok. I'm done. Conrad. MEM. Ian. deej... Let me know if I'm totally off base here. I just felt that had to be said....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tough to get him to take the lead or do anything outside his comfort zone. My wife was like that. Wouldn’t take the lead in anything, an extremely risk averse avoider but “Nice” to everyone on the planet. Couldn’t get her to “take the lead” on arranging a meal with friends, organising a holiday or a new kitchen. Absolutely zilch in these things.

I led in everything and got really messed off with it. Maybe Mrs MNG has a point.

Bob


----------



## F-102

"...but being gentle is more viable..."

And how's that been working out for you?

Sometimes, the only way to make someone realize what they are losing-is to go ahead and let them lose it.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

> Have you had sex?


We were at the beginning. The therapist told us to stop. I had to detach from the relationship. Now, I won't have sex with her, kiss her, or anything of that nature until we are connected emotionally. However, it is not my job to make that connection happen. She can come to me when she is ready. It's crazy. I feel better about me than I ever have. Doing better at my job (making more money), lost 35 lbs working out, got a great group of guys that I meet with every week that keep me accountable for bettering myself. She can either get on board, or let me leave her in the dust. Right now, she is starting to want to catch up. It's all about attitude, confidence. She still knows I'm here for her by little things I do for her, but she is very aware that I am off limits physically until she starts to really show respect for me.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Dedicated2Her said:


> We were at the beginning. The therapist told us to stop. I had to detach from the relationship. Now, I won't have sex with her, kiss her, or anything of that nature until we are connected emotionally. However, it is not my job to make that connection happen. She can come to me when she is ready. It's crazy. I feel better about me than I ever have. Doing better at my job (making more money), lost 35 lbs working out, got a great group of guys that I meet with every week that keep me accountable for bettering myself. She can either get on board, or let me leave her in the dust. Right now, she is starting to want to catch up. It's all about attitude, confidence. She still knows I'm here for her by little things I do for her, but she is very aware that I am off limits physically until she starts to really show respect for me.


I am behind you by a couple of months. I started caring about my clothes again. Went out and bought a whole bunch of new clothes which I hadn't done in years. I've lost about 15lbs (down to 184lbs, 6'2" so not a lot to lose). Been running and doing yoga. I've basically kicked her out of our business and run it day to day. It may not sound like it here, but she has given up control of a lot of the day to day stuff. I pay the bills now. If we need to go somewhere with the kids, I am taking the lead. I bring in most of the money (I actually work outside my business and bring in extra money). I might be joining a mens support group in a couple of weeks geared towards recovering nice guys. I think if you met me about 3 years ago and saw me know, you'd see a big difference in my demeanor. My wife even said this a couple of days ago. She said she likes the new Mr Nice Guy much better than the old one. Then she went on to say how attractive I was. I'm not saying there is any hope for us, but I feel much better about myself than I have in years. I told the MC yesterday that I can't wait forever for her to come around and that I have a strong need for an intimate relationshipa and I'm not getting any here in my marriage. Not sure my wife will ever get onboard with me, but oh well I've got my own life to live now...


----------



## Mike188

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I am behind you by a couple of months. I started caring about my clothes again. Went out and bought a whole bunch of new clothes which I hadn't done in years. I've lost about 15lbs (down to 184lbs, 6'2" so not a lot to lose). Been running and doing yoga. I've basically kicked her out of our business and run it day to day. It may not sound like it here, but she has given up control of a lot of the day to day stuff. I pay the bills now. If we need to go somewhere with the kids, I am taking the lead. I bring in most of the money (I actually work outside my business and bring in extra money). I might be joining a mens support group in a couple of weeks geared towards recovering nice guys. I think if you met me about 3 years ago and saw me know, you'd see a big difference in my demeanor. My wife even said this a couple of days ago. She said she likes the new Mr Nice Guy much better than the old one. Then she went on to say how attractive I was. I'm not saying there is any hope for us, but I feel much better about myself than I have in years. I told the MC yesterday that I can't wait forever for her to come around and that I have a strong need for an intimate relationshipa and I'm not getting any here in my marriage. Not sure my wife will ever get onboard with me, but oh well I've got my own life to live now...


It's hard for nice guys to be selfish and to purposely not try to tend to your spouses needs. Its hard for a really nice guy to do the 180 and mean it. It's hard to fake the 180. 

I'll make an analogy. I've always felt that when buying or selling something that you make the best deal when you are unattached to the outcome, when you really don't care if the transaction takes place or not. When I really don't care I can walk away from a deal with no emotion involved and if a deal is struck I always feel good about it. When I am really attached to an outcome or really need to sell something or really want to buy an object my emotion can get in the way and I might not think right. 

I see the 180 the same way. It's been a struggle for me. The only thing that has even allowed me to attempt the 180 with any conviction or any chance of success has been to detach and start flirting with other women. I find myself thinking more about some woman at the store or some woman down the street than I do about my wife and all of a sudden a couple days have gone by and I realized I haven't fretted about my wife at all because I'm more interested in someone else (for the time being anyway).

Some people may see this as switching from one addiction to another, but at least it gives me some breathing space and some time to clear my head and think about myself for a change and reflect on what I need to do to improve myself "just in case" I actually do decide to pursue other women. 

I'm trying to un-attach myself emotionally to the outcome.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Mike188 said:


> It's hard for nice guys to be selfish and to purposely not try to tend to your spouses needs. Its hard for a really nice guy to do the 180 and mean it. It's hard to fake the 180.
> 
> I'll make an analogy. I've always felt that when buying or selling something that you make the best deal when you are unattached to the outcome, when you really don't care if the transaction takes place or not. When I really don't care I can walk away from a deal with no emotion involved and if a deal is struck I always feel good about it. When I am really attached to an outcome or really need to sell something or really want to buy an object my emotion can get in the way and I might not think right.
> 
> I see the 180 the same way. It's been a struggle for me. The only thing that has even allowed me to attempt the 180 with any conviction or any chance of success has been to detach and start flirting with other women. I find myself thinking more about some woman at the store or some woman down the street than I do about my wife and all of a sudden a couple days have gone by and I realized I haven't fretted about my wife at all because I'm more interested in someone else (for the time being anyway).
> 
> Some people may see this as switching from one addiction to another, but at least it gives me some breathing space and some time to clear my head and think about myself for a change and reflect on what I need to do to improve myself "just in case" I actually do decide to pursue other women.
> 
> I'm trying to un-attach myself emotionally to the outcome.


Funny you mention that! I was feeling exactly this way today. Since I teach college classes at night and work at my business and have to meet many people including many available women, I started really thinking about what it will be like to be out there on the open market again after 17 years. You know it's actually helping me not think about my situation with my wife. There are many women out there and I'm very fit and attractive (IMHO). My wife has even said that I would be the first to find a partner if we split. She's 50 and I'm 49. We had two children after she turned 40. She'll be a 50 year old, albeit attractive 50 yo, with baggage. She knows this too. I'm starting to turn my thoughts to the future and other women at some point in the not to distant future. It is helping me with the 180 and helping me concentrate on myself.


----------



## tobio

MNG

I think you covered this a while ago but to clarify, what would be your wishes regarding care of the children should you split?


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Funny you mention that! I was feeling exactly this way today. Since I teach college classes at night and work at my business and have to meet many people including many available women, I started really thinking about what it will be like to be out there on the open market again after 17 years. You know it's actually helping me not think about my situation with my wife. There are many women out there and I'm very fit and attractive (IMHO). My wife has even said that I would be the first to find a partner if we split. She's 50 and I'm 49. We had two children after she turned 40. She'll be a 50 year old, albeit attractive 50 yo, with baggage. She knows this too. I'm starting to turn my thoughts to the future and other women at some point in the not to distant future. It is helping me with the 180 and helping me concentrate on myself.


Dude, I am proud of what you've accomplished, despite the hardassedness we're throwing at you. Or perhaps because of it. Change of this magnitude, this late in life is not easy under any circumstances, and it's a mark of your character that you haven't completely folded. Sure, we're ragging on you about a couple of things -- "nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it" -- but the fact that we're still here, offering advice and counsel, should let you know you're pointed in the right direction. 

She needs to go -- for a week, month, whatever, just get her gone. I'd start strongly encouraging her, start picking up apartment finders and such, and at least give the impression that you're hustling her towards the door. You can do that gently and not be a d!ck about it, but you can also be firm in your approach. I mean, from your perspective, can you honestly say you could face reconciling with her without at least a break from seeing her mopey face everyday? This perspective is as much about you as it is about her. But every day she stays under your roof as something other than your wife is a day she robs from you. Get her moving.


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## MisterNiceGuy

I think this marriage is done. She is going to move out as soon as she can find a place. I'm done with her crap and she is done with mine. Funny when you get right to the end, I'm not really mad anymore just upset that I couldn't make it work out. It's really only been about 5 months of conflict and affairs so it's been pretty quick, but apparently a long time coming based on our conversations. In hindsight, I could see it coming. She read this http://newdaydesigns.com/docs/How_Couples_Can_Fulfill_Needs.pdf

and said this made it so clear for her about us that she is determined to get out when she can. So... I should be single in a couple of months...


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I think this marriage is done. She is going to move out as soon as she can find a place. I'm done with her crap and she is done with mine. Funny when you get right to the end, I'm not really mad anymore just upset that I couldn't make it work out. It's really only been about 5 months of conflict and affairs so it's been pretty quick, but apparently a long time coming based on our conversations. In hindsight, I could see it coming. She read this http://newdaydesigns.com/docs/How_Couples_Can_Fulfill_Needs.pdf
> 
> and said this made it so clear for her about us that she is determined to get out when she can. So... I should be single in a couple of months...


It's probably for the best.

She's got some serious serious stuff to work out. She's behaving like a 5 year old dictatorial child.

As for you...

Are you continuing with therapy?

I would strongly recommend finding an IFS certified counselor - for a fresh start.

I wish you well.


----------



## IanIronwood

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I think this marriage is done. She is going to move out as soon as she can find a place. I'm done with her crap and she is done with mine. Funny when you get right to the end, I'm not really mad anymore just upset that I couldn't make it work out. It's really only been about 5 months of conflict and affairs so it's been pretty quick, but apparently a long time coming based on our conversations. In hindsight, I could see it coming. She read this http://newdaydesigns.com/docs/How_Couples_Can_Fulfill_Needs.pdf
> 
> and said this made it so clear for her about us that she is determined to get out when she can. So... I should be single in a couple of months...


Well, while that sucks, at least you have some resolution. Time to start seriously getting into shape for the dating market. Just get it done quickly, like removing a band-aid.


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## VeryHurt

MNG:

I wish you and your children peace and happiness.

Most Sincerely ~

Very Hurt


----------



## Dedicated2Her

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I think this marriage is done. She is going to move out as soon as she can find a place. I'm done with her crap and she is done with mine. Funny when you get right to the end, I'm not really mad anymore just upset that I couldn't make it work out. It's really only been about 5 months of conflict and affairs so it's been pretty quick, but apparently a long time coming based on our conversations. In hindsight, I could see it coming. She read this http://newdaydesigns.com/docs/How_Couples_Can_Fulfill_Needs.pdf
> 
> and said this made it so clear for her about us that she is determined to get out when she can. So... I should be single in a couple of months...


This is beyond crazy. She will either be back or she will regret this someday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Conrad said:


> It's probably for the best.
> 
> She's got some serious serious stuff to work out. She's behaving like a 5 year old dictatorial child.
> 
> As for you...
> 
> Are you continuing with therapy?
> 
> I would strongly recommend finding an IFS certified counselor - for a fresh start.
> 
> I wish you well.


Yes, I am continuing with therapy and actually adding a men's group (ala NMMNG). She does have some stuff to work out...

Thanks... I'll probably move off this thread and do other threads as needed...


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

Dedicated2Her said:


> This is beyond crazy. She will either be back or she will regret this someday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's basically what the MC said to me. She needs to get out of the house. Be away from her kids. Start a new life and see how it feels not having emotional support from me. She might come back or not. In the mean time, I'm going to take it easy for a couple of months. I put away my wedding ring. I probably won't date for a while, but I will start probably within a couple of months from the divorce.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

How long does it take for the indentation on my ring finger to go away?


----------



## limeyx

MisterNiceGuy said:


> How long does it take for the indentation on my ring finger to go away?


Depends how long you spend pounding your fists into your head  (might want to check your forehead too!)


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## Dedicated2Her

> How long does it take for the indentation on my ring finger to go away?


Not long, it's been a month for me and no indentation any more. Of course, we are improving, but I don't want the old P.O.S. marriage. She can buy me an new ring when crap is better. I've seen this story before, however, most of the time by the time the woman realizes she screwed up the man wants no part of her.


----------



## alphaomega

MNG,
This does suck, and yes we rag on you lots. But I can tell a bit by your last posts something worked itself out in your head. Something In my head clicked too, and I went through exactly the same process you did in my situation. We all have to come to this realization ourselves, regardless how much bantering we get from other people. That's just how your head works.

Btw. Join a gym! I can't believe how many beautiful single women go to the gym! Except I can't touch, right now...lol.

You've come a very long way in your self discovery. Be proud.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega

On the other hand, I'm sure Yoga class has it's fair share of wonderful women! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisterNiceGuy

alphaomega said:


> On the other hand, I'm sure Yoga class has it's fair share of wonderful women! Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like to go to the back of the room in yoga, the view is always better from there! :smthumbup:

I know what's going to happen, as soon as I give up for real (as in today) she'll probably realize she doesn't want to be single living in an apartment by herself, without her kids and want to come back, but by that time I'll have already checked out and dating other women far younger and attractive than her!


----------



## Neil

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I like to go to the back of the room in yoga, the view is always better from there! :smthumbup:
> 
> I know what's going to happen, as soon as I give up for real (as in today) she'll probably realize she doesn't want to be single living in an apartment by herself, without her kids and want to come back, but by that time I'll have already checked out and dating other women far younger and attractive than her!


Love your first sentence LOL

And your last part, you probably have that spot on. But, what you need to make sure doesn't happen, is that if that happens, its entirely your decision as to whether you want her back or not, and absolutely no way should she blame you for banging other women (who actually appreciate you).

Sorry to read your latest, you will be a better man for it now.

Good Luck


----------



## CktBridge

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I like to go to the back of the room in yoga, the view is always better from there! :smthumbup:
> 
> I know what's going to happen, as soon as I give up for real (as in today) she'll probably realize she doesn't want to be single living in an apartment by herself, without her kids and want to come back, but by that time I'll have already checked out and dating other women far younger and attractive than her!


Just show her this comic strip if you decide to check out....

Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

I don't know where we are in past couple of days... she has been very nice and attentive. Cooking meals. Buying groceries. Being a good mother. Some good conversation. Cleaning the house. Texting and calling me to tell me about her day. Just like we are married and not going for a divorce... I have been trying to set the tone and take the lead on many issues, especially in our business and she has been deferring to me and letting me make the decisions.

I had an interesting conversation with my mother yesterday. We were living in Europe about 28 years ago and she just couldn't stand being with my father anymore. I was 20 at the time and in college in Europe so I was already out of the house but my brother and sister were living at home with my parents. My mother hated being with my father so much she bought a plane ticket back to the US without a job or a place to live, left her teenage kids and just left and never went back to my father. (Funny how history repeats itself!) I said that if my wife feels that our situation was as bad as my mother's she would just up and leave like my mother did. But she hasn't. 

I'm trying not to have any hope around this relationship at this point, but there is a little thing in the back of my head that says, if my wife really hated being here so much she wouldn't try to engage me in conversation, care about my well being and would just leave and she hasn't. My gut tells me that when she starts packing bags and telling the kids that she is leaving she can't pull the trigger... but my gut has been wrong before. It was just Sunday night she told me she was staying for 3-4 months "to see how it feels".


----------



## Conrad

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know where we are in past couple of days... she has been very nice and attentive. Cooking meals. Buying groceries. Being a good mother. Some good conversation. Cleaning the house. Texting and calling me to tell me about her day. Just like we are married and not going for a divorce... I have been trying to set the tone and take the lead on many issues, especially in our business and she has been deferring to me and letting me make the decisions.
> 
> I had an interesting conversation with my mother yesterday. We were living in Europe about 28 years ago and she just couldn't stand being with my father anymore. I was 20 at the time and in college in Europe so I was already out of the house but my brother and sister were living at home with my parents. My mother hated being with my father so much she bought a plane ticket back to the US without a job or a place to live, left her teenage kids and just left and never went back to my father. (Funny how history repeats itself!) I said that if my wife feels that our situation was as bad as my mother's she would just up and leave like my mother did. But she hasn't.
> 
> I'm trying not to have any hope around this relationship at this point, but there is a little thing in the back of my head that says, if my wife really hated being here so much she wouldn't try to engage me in conversation, care about my well being and would just leave and she hasn't. My gut tells me that when she starts packing bags and telling the kids that she is leaving she can't pull the trigger... but my gut has been wrong before. It was just Sunday night she told me she was staying for 3-4 months "to see how it feels".


Just live your life.

Notice how when you actually "give up" what happens.

Keep "giving up".

And don't flinch an inch.

If you can avoid caving in - and indulging that flicker of MisterNiceGuy believer - one day, she'll start undressing you. Then you'll have a decision to make.

In the meantime, keep planning for her departure date. And do not bend on this.


----------



## AFEH

MisterNiceGuy said:


> I don't know where we are in past couple of days... she has been very nice and attentive. Cooking meals. Buying groceries. Being a good mother. Some good conversation. Cleaning the house. Texting and calling me to tell me about her day. Just like we are married and not going for a divorce... I have been trying to set the tone and take the lead on many issues, especially in our business and she has been deferring to me and letting me make the decisions.
> 
> I had an interesting conversation with my mother yesterday. We were living in Europe about 28 years ago and she just couldn't stand being with my father anymore. I was 20 at the time and in college in Europe so I was already out of the house but my brother and sister were living at home with my parents. My mother hated being with my father so much she bought a plane ticket back to the US without a job or a place to live, left her teenage kids and just left and never went back to my father. (Funny how history repeats itself!) I said that if my wife feels that our situation was as bad as my mother's she would just up and leave like my mother did. But she hasn't.
> 
> I'm trying not to have any hope around this relationship at this point, but there is a little thing in the back of my head that says, if my wife really hated being here so much she wouldn't try to engage me in conversation, care about my well being and would just leave and she hasn't. My gut tells me that when she starts packing bags and telling the kids that she is leaving she can't pull the trigger... but my gut has been wrong before. It was just Sunday night she told me she was staying for 3-4 months "to see how it feels".


Sounds like your wife is on a rollercoaster and for a time you were joining her on her ride, as a passenger if you will.

This is a bit of what the 180 is about. You let them do what they want when they want, but you don’t join them on their ride. You don’t go up and down with them, you remain enduring, stable, calm and collected. The 180 detaches your self from your wife’s emotional ups and downs so you don’t go up and down with her.

You don’t interfere with it all, rather you just observe without interacting. In time your wife will conclude what she wants out of her life and change will happen.

If you’ve a mind to you can reward good behaviour with “That’s nice” while just ignoring bad behaviour.

Bob


----------



## dadiodadio

Mr Nice Guy,

I sat and read through this entire thing, and registered so I could respond to this. I really do feel for you. When I was younger, I used to try to please my wife and do everything for her and let her walk all over me, scared to death she would find someone else, or leave me and ruin my life. You have to realize she does not ask you to do all these things you do for the family and her. You are just doing them hoping she will reciprocate. She is not going to. That is all in your head, not hers. You just need to be a strong confident man. I think you have been close a couple times, but you just go right back to being Mr. Nice Guy. You have to break free, you will be so relieved to leave MNG behind. When I found my self confidence years ago, my life and marriage TOTALLY changed for the good. I can easily see how what happened to your marriage could have eventually happened to mine.

You really need to give her some good hard sex. Make her have an amazing orgasm first, and then really give it to her. If you do not know how to do that, spend some time studying, plan it out, and make it happen. 

From reading through this, I just do not think you understand that there is a lot more to lovemaking than just getting off. You simply cannot allow your marriage to go without sex for extended periods of time. Sex will make her feel attached to you. The emotional/physical/chemical release will allow her to step back and realize what she has done to your family. If she has not had sex with the OM yet, all that stored up emotion is ready to explode. You need to be the one that releases it, not some other jerk. She is YOUR woman, and she NEEDS you to show her the way. You may not have very many more chances if you want to make it work.

She doesn't need you to do all this other crap to enable her. She needs you to shut her down, straighten her out, and give it to her. Be THE MAN, HER MAN, not just a man. If you want her to follow you, you have to show her that you deserve her respect.

I am not saying drag her around by the hair like a caveman, but I am kinda saying that. All this EA and PA crap and 5 ways to love and blah blah. She screwed up, you need to call her on it, and show her how it is going to be. It would have been better if you had done it sooner, but it is what it is.

Then after she crumbles and falls into your arms, you need to protect her and take care of her, and stop being a puss. You are not taking this Alpha male thing seriously. She doesn't even know what she wants. She is confused. She is a female, she needs you to show her what she wanted/needed all along. If you can't do that, your marriage is gonna suck even if she stays.

Good luck.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

dadiodadio said:


> Mr Nice Guy,
> 
> I sat and read through this entire thing, and registered so I could respond to this. I really do feel for you. When I was younger, I used to try to please my wife and do everything for her and let her walk all over me, scared to death she would find someone else, or leave me and ruin my life. You have to realize she does not ask you to do all these things you do for the family and her. You are just doing them hoping she will reciprocate. She is not going to. That is all in your head, not hers. You just need to be a strong confident man. I think you have been close a couple times, but you just go right back to being Mr. Nice Guy. You have to break free, you will be so relieved to leave MNG behind. When I found my self confidence years ago, my life and marriage TOTALLY changed for the good. I can easily see how what happened to your marriage could have eventually happened to mine.
> 
> You really need to give her some good hard sex. Make her have an amazing orgasm first, and then really give it to her. If you do not know how to do that, spend some time studying, plan it out, and make it happen.
> 
> From reading through this, I just do not think you understand that there is a lot more to lovemaking than just getting off. You simply cannot allow your marriage to go without sex for extended periods of time. Sex will make her feel attached to you. The emotional/physical/chemical release will allow her to step back and realize what she has done to your family. If she has not had sex with the OM yet, all that stored up emotion is ready to explode. You need to be the one that releases it, not some other jerk. She is YOUR woman, and she NEEDS you to show her the way. You may not have very many more chances if you want to make it work.
> 
> She doesn't need you to do all this other crap to enable her. She needs you to shut her down, straighten her out, and give it to her. Be THE MAN, HER MAN, not just a man. If you want her to follow you, you have to show her that you deserve her respect.
> 
> I am not saying drag her around by the hair like a caveman, but I am kinda saying that. All this EA and PA crap and 5 ways to love and blah blah. She screwed up, you need to call her on it, and show her how it is going to be. It would have been better if you had done it sooner, but it is what it is.
> 
> Then after she crumbles and falls into your arms, you need to protect her and take care of her, and stop being a puss. You are not taking this Alpha male thing seriously. She doesn't even know what she wants. She is confused. She is a female, she needs you to show her what she wanted/needed all along. If you can't do that, your marriage is gonna suck even if she stays.
> 
> Good luck.


Great post!

This is the problem... How can I get my wife, who has emotional and sexually checked out of our marriage back into bed? I know that if she dropped her guard and we had sex, this thing would blow past pretty quickly. She is sexually charged I can tell you that. She frequently mentions it. She has told me she wants it, just not from me. I am ready to take the initiative on sex thing, but I've not gotten any signals from her that this is something she wants from me right now. Plus, I'm in the best shape I've been in years and she's got to see that!

The rest of the stuff I feel I'm getting a good handle on. It's not like a light bulb that you can just turn on overnight, especially if it's something you've lived with most of your adult life. I see where it came from. I talked to my mother yesterday and she starts telling me how to raise my kids and do this and do that and told her for the first time in a long time that I will do it at my own speed and do it on my terms and stop telling me what to do! Same with my wife...


----------



## AFEH

I think if you go there with sex you’re just setting yourself up for more rejection. Reckon you’ve had enough of that. Plus your wife has already rejected all that you’ve done for her in the past, going there with somehow being dominant with sex and then getting rejected would do it for me.

On the other hand if you are prepared to make yourself vulnerable to more rejection and you are willing to take a risk then go out and buy some handcuffs, a lash (just for fun play) and blindfold and when she’s upstairs, throw her on the bed, handcuff her and then blindfold her.

How she responds will tell you a great deal as to whether she really wants to submit to a dominant male and to be dominated in the bedroom.

Bob


----------



## eagleclaw

MisterNiceGuy said:


> Great post!
> 
> This is the problem... How can I get my wife, who has emotional and sexually checked out of our marriage back into bed? I know that if she dropped her guard and we had sex, this thing would blow past pretty quickly. She is sexually charged I can tell you that. She frequently mentions it. She has told me she wants it, just not from me. I am ready to take the initiative on sex thing, but I've not gotten any signals from her that this is something she wants from me right now. Plus, I'm in the best shape I've been in years and she's got to see that!
> 
> The rest of the stuff I feel I'm getting a good handle on. It's not like a light bulb that you can just turn on overnight, especially if it's something you've lived with most of your adult life. I see where it came from. I talked to my mother yesterday and she starts telling me how to raise my kids and do this and do that and told her for the first time in a long time that I will do it at my own speed and do it on my terms and stop telling me what to do! Same with my wife...


At this point you have the luxary of absolutely NOTHING to lose. She may have checked out, but you still have the option of just going for it. You have NOTHING to lose. Do go take her. Be persistant and aggressive. If she gives you serious resistance, then stop and walk away.

We have talked about this before. But your waiting for a "sign" or some green light action on her part. I.E. - for her to tell you/show you what to do and take the lead.

Things are getting worse and you have nothing to lose. JUST DO IT!


----------



## AFEH

eagleclaw said:


> At this point you have the luxary of absolutely NOTHING to lose. She may have checked out, but you still have the option of just going for it. You have NOTHING to lose. Do go take her. Be persistant and aggressive. If she gives you serious resistance, then stop and walk away.
> 
> We have talked about this before. But your waiting for a "sign" or some green light action on her part. I.E. - for her to tell you/show you what to do and take the lead.
> 
> Things are getting worse and you have nothing to lose. JUST DO IT!


I say "gentle but firm" and with a smile. No aggression. You’ll know if you’re on the right track if she giggles. Tickle her if she does. If you get “stern or violent resistance” then just walk away with your dignity in tact.

I’m wondering MNG. Do you know the particular body language your wife uses or used to use when she wanted sex? It can be so subtle that men miss it.

Bob


----------



## eagleclaw

AFEH said:


> I say "gentle but firm" and with a smile. No aggression. You’ll know if you’re on the right track if she giggles. Tickle her if she does. If you get “stern or violent resistance” then just walk away with your dignity in tact.
> 
> I’m wondering MNG. Do you know the particular body language your wife uses or used to use when she wanted sex? It can be so subtle that men miss it.
> 
> Bob


"gentle but firm" is the perfect summary. Aggressive might have been a poor choice of words. I was meaing to "ravish" her enthusiastically even in the face of minor/token resistance.


----------



## MisterNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> I say "gentle but firm" and with a smile. No aggression. You’ll know if you’re on the right track if she giggles. Tickle her if she does. If you get “stern or violent resistance” then just walk away with your dignity in tact.
> 
> I’m wondering MNG. Do you know the particular body language your wife uses or used to use when she wanted sex? It can be so subtle that men miss it.
> 
> Bob


Maybe I don't know the signals anymore. It's been so long...

This has been a problem of being a Nice Guy. I waited for her to initiate for such a long time. The only time I would initiate was when I had a few drinks. When she rejected me I took it personally. Those few times I didn't give up on the initiation, she almost always gave in. (A lesson I did not take to heart!). Now that I think back over the past few weeks there probably were a few times she was open to sex, but my head has been so screwed up over this affair then her wanting a separation that honestly I've been a little checked out myself. I see now that there may be an opportunity here to establish an intimate connection with her. I need to mull this over and see if this is somewhere I want to go with her right now. I am out of town for a couple of days... But if this current attitude of her continues (upbeat) I'm going to go for it shortly and I really have nothing to lose at this point do I?


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## MisterNiceGuy

I want to start a new thread. This one is getting too big:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/24217-moving.html


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## MisterNiceGuy

Wow, I knew this day would come. I still have the most replies ever on a thread for the Men's Clubhouse!

Well, it's been an interesting year since I stopped updating this thread. At times I've mulled over pulling it down so my wife wouldn't stumble on it in the future, but I think it's a great resource for the classic Nice Guy that needs to man up and get on with his life. 

About a year ago my wife decided to give it another try after her brief EA with a neighbor. I also decided to jump all the way in to see if there was really something there or not. Our financial problems have eased quite a bit and that isn't hanging over our heads causing problems. Our sex life is really good for a couple of 50 year olds. We have both upped our sex ranks by getting in shape (not that we were really out of shape, but now we are looking really good). I would say that we've had some ups and downs, but mostly ups! Although, I have to say that she used the divorce word last week, but instead of hovering around her and worrying about what she was thinking I told her take a hike and talk to me in the morning when she'd had a good nights sleep and lo and behold the problem went away! She even told me how I don't put up with her sh1t anymore! I'll tell you there is nothing like going through that torture to put a new perspective on everything. I put myself first and everyone else is second! Again I wanted to thank everyone for helping me through this. I really want to thank Athol and Dr. Robert Glover. Athol and Glover's books really set me straight and I don't know if I mentioned this before but I live in the Seattle, WA area and was lucky enough to get into one of Dr. Glover's mens groups last year and I can't tell you what a difference it made for me. I still check Athol's blog daily and I suggest anyone having the same problems I did to become an Athol Kay disciple. Of course there many guys here that offered great advice. Too many to name, but I am in awe of the amount of time some of these guys spend on these forums. I know I can't spend nearly the amount time I would like here to help out. I could easily spend a couple of hours a day answering questions here. 

I know that I'm the exception that I made it through and am pretty happy with my marriage right now, but I think it can be done if you want to put the effort into it if it's not completely f&cked up!


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## MEM2020

MNG,
You confronted your fear directly. You got control of YOU and in doing so took control of your life. 

Bravo!!!




MisterNiceGuy said:


> Wow, I knew this day would come. I still have the most replies ever on a thread for the Men's Clubhouse!
> 
> Well, it's been an interesting year since I stopped updating this thread. At times I've mulled over pulling it down so my wife wouldn't stumble on it in the future, but I think it's a great resource for the classic Nice Guy that needs to man up and get on with his life.
> 
> About a year ago my wife decided to give it another try after her brief EA with a neighbor. I also decided to jump all the way in to see if there was really something there or not. Our financial problems have eased quite a bit and that isn't hanging over our heads causing problems. Our sex life is really good for a couple of 50 year olds. We have both upped our sex ranks by getting in shape (not that we were really out of shape, but now we are looking really good). I would say that we've had some ups and downs, but mostly ups! Although, I have to say that she used the divorce word last week, but instead of hovering around her and worrying about what she was thinking I told her take a hike and talk to me in the morning when she'd had a good nights sleep and lo and behold the problem went away! She even told me how I don't put up with her sh1t anymore! I'll tell you there is nothing like going through that torture to put a new perspective on everything. I put myself first and everyone else is second! Again I wanted to thank everyone for helping me through this. I really want to thank Athol and Dr. Robert Glover. Athol and Glover's books really set me straight and I don't know if I mentioned this before but I live in the Seattle, WA area and was lucky enough to get into one of Dr. Glover's mens groups last year and I can't tell you what a difference it made for me. I still check Athol's blog daily and I suggest anyone having the same problems I did to become an Athol Kay disciple. Of course there many guys here that offered great advice. Too many to name, but I am in awe of the amount of time some of these guys spend on these forums. I know I can't spend nearly the amount time I would like here to help out. I could easily spend a couple of hours a day answering questions here.
> 
> I know that I'm the exception that I made it through and am pretty happy with my marriage right now, but I think it can be done if you want to put the effort into it if it's not completely f&cked up!


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## Deejo

Nothing 82 pages of posts couldn't fix ...

I think it's great that you were able to work things out.

Of course, I think you've gotten to the place where things would be great if they didn't work out either. That's when you know you have done the work that needs to be done.


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## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> MNG,
> You confronted your fear directly. You got control of YOU and in doing so took control of your life.
> 
> Bravo!!!


2nd that notion.

It's eerie.

I mentioned you in a post yesterday.


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