# Not happy with wife, but I'm worried about my son (Sorry, long)



## SoulMeetsBody (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm young, 23, and my wife and I have been married for 2 years. We were together about 2 months before we found out she was pregnant, and got married about 6 months after that. We were on and off for roughly 3 years before all that. 

Anyways, things have been rough pretty much the whole time.

There has been more bad times than good, plenty of fighting, control issues (her), jealousy (her), depression (her), selfishness (I'd like to say her alone, but I guess a little is in all of us) financial problems, and all around life changing and growing up too quick problems.

It seems like she has never been happy. There has ALWAYS been something that bothered her and started fights. 

Early on, it was over stupid things that involved things I considered fun. (hanging out with friends, occasional drinks, working out, basically anything I did that didn't involve her)
So I stopped doing those things completely, feeling like it wasn't worth the fight. After about 5 times TOTAL in a 1.5 year period where I went out with a friend or friends without her. At this point, I don't have any friends because I've pushed them away due to her jealous and controlling nature. (I was in college throughout much of this period of time.)

So, after I stopped doing those things it turned into fights about finances, taking care of our baby, me being in or going to college, my family, her family, where we live, etc. (trying not to make this too long)

I have a decent education in psychology, and after all these years I've narrowed down her nature to 2 words. Daddy Issues.
He never gave her enough love, affection, attention. He tried to just throw money her way to make her happy. He was very controlling up to a certain age. He divorced her mom at an early age and my wife was stuck in the middle for years.

I like to think I'm a decent human being. I TRY to do the right thing, the honest thing, and stick to the golden rule. I took a break from college due to all the stress (mainly because of her), and immediately started working. Our son's never gone without, and neither has she. I'm not controlling, jealous, selfish, or demanding. I let her spend money on things she wants and needs. I help with the housework and with our son (never enough for her apparently). She is a stay-at-home mom, I've never complained about that. 

But, I do have complaints about her and the way she raises our child. I don't like the way she does many things, and I don't like how she fails to do many things. He's 18 months now, and I feel like this is really when we have to be careful about everything we do. 
Tone of voice, nonverbal communication, facial expression, affection, patience, discipline, etc. You know?
After having a child, I feel directly responsible for everything he does. I know kids will be kids, and boys will be boys, but if there is something he does that I feel I can be corrected, I'm gonna try to do it. 
I don't feel like she has that mentality. She doesn't seem to think that anything she does has an effect on him. She almost constantly seems annoyed and put out with him. She hardly ever reads to him, plays with him, etc. If he would sit and watch TV all day, I think she'd be happy. She's too lazy to take him outside to play (he loves being outside). She's too lazy for a lot of things, really. 
And it kills me because I'm not home enough to do these things myself. If I bring any of this up to her, even if I tip-toe about it, she just gets defensive and nothing ever changes.

Basically, all the selfish things she has done to me I have not done to her. She still visits her friends. She spends more money on herself than I do on myself. I don't ask for much, and she fails to do much of what I ask.

I'm going back to college in August, just decided after seeing how much my bills were for my student loans lol. And already it has spawned several fights. Where she wants to live, when I should start (was thinking about January, but she'd rather me work for another 8 months). Stupid stuff really. But I am SICK of it.

Last thing, she has really, really let herself go. I'm sure many people will read this and think I'm a shallow *******, but it's something that bothers me constantly. She's gained over 100 lbs , she keeps saying she's going to diet and exercise but never does, she hardly ever puts on decent clothes or makeup. She's just extremely lazy, and I worry about how our marriage will be later on EVEN IF the other problems are corrected. I love her, I show affection, I try to do the things she asks me to do, and I DO NOT insult her about her weight or appearance. I have always tried to lift her up and encourage her, not bring her down about it.

There has been a couple slips on my part about her weight or appearance, during fights, but nothing nasty. Either way, as you can see, it really gets to me. I'm honestly embarrassed to go out with her sometimes, I can't help it. She can still look pretty at her weight, but she doesn't even try. Basically the only person she dresses up for is her dad, and he is the one who has always put her down about it, even when she was skinny. 

Sorry for making this so long, but that's my situation. No friends, working, back to college soon, love my son to death, daddy issue wife, still love her, not attracted to her, unhappy with her.

WHAT TO DO?!

EDIT: I guess I got carried away and missed one of my points. I'm worried about my kid because, If we divorce, I'm afraid at best I will get joint custody, or at best, she have most of the control. I know he needs his mom, and I don't want to rip him away from her, but unless some miracle happens inside of her, I don't want her influence on him. (She wasn't like this when we first got together, it's just been a slow motion train wreck)


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

SoulMeetsBody said:


> I have a decent education in psychology, and after all these years I've narrowed down her nature to 2 words. Daddy Issues. He never gave her enough love, affection, attention.


Soul, welcome to the TAM forum. The behaviors you're describing -- fighting, control issues, jealousy, depression, and selfishness -- are some of the traits in several well-known patterns of behavior. Yet, if your W has one of those behavioral patterns, she also would exhibit many other related traits. I therefore ask whether you have often seen most of the following behaviors and, if so, which are the strongest:


Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
Controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away not only from close friends (as you mention) but also from close family members;
Irrational jealousy and inability to trust you for extended periods;
Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you;
Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about the next day;
Low self esteem;
Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined);
Fear of abandonment or being alone;
Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming that you are the only one that has treated her well;
Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) -- for the first six months of your relationship -- that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
Relying on you to sooth and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence (e.g., her conviction that you had been stalking her).
If any of those behaviors ring a bell, it would be helpful if you would tell us which ones are most accurate. It also would be helpful to know how bad her childhood was. For example, was she abused -- or did her dad leave in her early childhood, making her feel abandoned before age 5? Why have you not tried MC, an obvious first step? Finally, does the "on and off" during the first 3 years mean you two broke up and reunited several times before the marriage? I raise these questions, Soul, because it sounds like your W's behavioral problems may go well beyond "daddy issues."


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## SoulMeetsBody (Sep 22, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Soul, welcome to the TAM forum. The behaviors you're describing -- fighting, control issues, jealousy, depression, and selfishness -- are some of the traits in several well-known patterns of behavior. Yet, if your W has one of those behavioral patterns, she also would exhibit many other related traits. I therefore ask whether you have often seen most of the following behaviors and, if so, which are the strongest:
> 
> 
> 1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
> ...


Thanks for your reply Uptown. 
I've numbered them for easy reference purposes, but most of these were a resounding YES when I first read them.
1. Sometimes, she does this with friends a lot. One moment they will be her best friend, the next, her worst enemy, over pretty minor things. She also categorizes certain groups of things or people like this as well.
2. YES, I used to complain constantly about this, but now I've just gotten used to it. I call them "all-inclusive words," and she uses them much too frequently, especially in fights. Sad thing is, even when I give examples of how that's not true, she tries to stick with it.
3. Yes, family and friends. Some of it is my fault though, I guess because I try to avoid giving her any reason to flip out over something.
4. Yes, I don't even speak to other women with or without her, aside from greetings and goodbyes, let alone flirt with them. Yet she still gets jealous of certain things I say or do, she even accuses me of cheating when we fight now (for no logical reason). She gets jealous of my friends and family, basically if I give anyone more attention than her or if I do something nice for them. Then, if I carry through with something, she will not trust me for a long time and continue to bring it up months down the road. Example, I went to a friends bachelor party about a year ago. It was at another friends house, no strippers, no strip-clubs, no women, just friends and some alcohol. She tried to force me to give her an exact time that I'd be home. I hadn't been out with friends in months, so naturally, it aggravated me. I told her midnight, she told me no, 10 pm. So when I got home at midnight, she flipped out. She still brings things like this up in fights to this day.
5. Eh, maybe? I wouldn't say she adores me at all lol. But, she does go from loving, affectionate, and complementary to angry, resentful, and hurtful very quickly.
6. YES, drama drama drama, over ridiculous crap. Whether its me or her friends and family. I get to hear it all though, and when I try to minimize it to where it belongs, it starts more drama.
7. YES, very low, even when I try to encourage and lift her up.
8. YES, I don't really like claiming that I'm verbally abused, but she does attack me over minor things. She attacks my abilities as a husband, father, son-in-law, everything's game really.
9. YES, she hates being alone. And YES, if I try to leave during a fight, to cool down or blow off some steam, she will not get it through her head that that's all it is. She escalates it to "why don't you just divorce me if you're going to leave!" Then, when things die down or I do leave, she breaks down and doesn't want to be abandoned, even though I have no plans on abandoning her.
10. YES, I say this all the time to myself. Not just me, her family and friends too.

Be back to post more.

EDIT: Ok...

11. Not so much, I wouldn't say she's too impulsive in terms of spending, eating, things like that. She is very impulsive when it comes to getting emotional over something.
12. Yes, but in fights she will say I'm just as bad or worse than they were. Even though I've never hit her, pushed her, pinned her up against a wall, choked her... all things she's said has been done to her by past BF's and apparently did not dump them for doing to her.
13. Not really, she was definitely more agreeable back then when it came to things that I liked and things I enjoyed doing.
14. Yes, she has trouble making up her mind on most things, diet, exercise, college, work. And when she thinks she's made up her mind, she either stops or just changes her mind. Can't stick to anything.
15. Yes, just the other night it took me hours to calm her down over something small my mom said to her. She still hasn't let it go. If she's mad at me, however, there's hardly any calming down going on. She always needs to vent to someone (which is one reason why her mom and friends typically dislike me, they only get her irrational/untrue side of the story).
16. Kind of, she has "close" friends, but many of them have been cycled through. She gets mad at one and goes to another every few months or so.
17. Sometimes, not all the time. She gets nervous around people she doesn't know, but I think that's more self-esteem related.
18. Yes, any time she gets emotional, she's impossible to reason with. Even if a make a point that most people would understand, she tends to divert and change the subject rather than seeing the point.

The reason I called them "daddy issues," is because IMO many of her erratic or unusual behaviors can be traced back to her relationship with her father, her parents divorce, traumatic events, and other things in childhood. 

Be back to post more later.


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## SoulMeetsBody (Sep 22, 2012)

Don't want her to see me on her, sorry for the "be backs."


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well this is who you chose to be the mother of your child. So now you have to deal with it.. if you are married to her or not.

Has she had a workup for depression?

Has she had her thyroid functions checked?

Because of the way she is, you son might be better off in day care at least part of the time.

Then she can go back to school or get a job.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

SoulMeetsBody said:


> The reason I called them "daddy issues," is because IMO many of her erratic or unusual behaviors can be traced back to her relationship with her father, her parents divorce, traumatic events, and other things in childhood.


Soul, the 18 behaviors I listed -- nearly all of which you say you have observed -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Significantly, BPD is a "spectrum disorder," which means we all have the traits to some degree. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the nine basic BPD traits listed in DSM-IV, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. 

These traits become a problem only when they are so strong that they distort one's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations, thereby undermining one's ability to maintain close attachments to other people. At issue, then, is NOT whether your exGF has BPD traits. We ALL do -- because these traits arise from the primitive set of ego defenses that we all are born with. 
*
One important issue*, then, is whether she has most BPD traits at a strong level. Of course, only a professional can determine whether those traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full blown BPD. Yet, for the purposes of deciding whether to remain married to your W, you don't need to know whether her traits surpass the diagnostic threshold. Even when those traits fall far short of that threshold, they can make your life miserable and destroy a marriage. 

Moreover, spotting the red flags (i.e., strong BPD traits) is not difficult to do. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about behavior such as verbal abuse, irrational jealousy, and temper tantrums. This is why hundreds of the best hospitals and health centers have been posting a description of BPD traits on their websites for the lay public to read. They know that, when the public knows how to spot the red flags for a disorder or disease, individuals are far more likely to seek help and more likely to do so quickly.

Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queens -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for law or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. 

Likewise, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. Significantly, I don't know whether your W has most BPD traits at a strong level. I've never even met the young lady. I am confident, however, that you can spot the red flags if you take time to learn what traits to look for.

*A second important issue* -- if you determine that most of her BPD traits are strong -- is whether they have been persistent since her mid-teens (except for your 6 month courtship period). Even emotionally healthy people occasionally get flareups of their BPD traits that may last for several months or even a couple of years. It is common for such angry and abusive flareups to occur when hormones greatly change -- as occurs during puberty, pregnancy, and postpartum. (Such flareups also can be caused by drug abuse and -- very rarely -- by a brain tumor or brain damage.)

In contrast, a person with a _persistent_ pattern of strong BPD traits typically will start exhibiting those traits in the early teens and -- absent years of specialized therapy -- will continue to do so the rest of her life. This occurs because such persistent traits arise from damage to the emotional core during early childhood. Not surprisingly, 70% of BPDers report that they were abused or abandoned in childhood.

Hence, when traits are persistent, they do not disappear for two years at a time. Rather, they typically only disappear for about 3 to 6 months during the courtship period because infatuation holds the BPDer's two fears at bay. I mention this distinction because, if your W has strong BPD traits, it is very important to determine whether they are apt to disappear shortly or, instead, will last a lifetime.


> WHAT TO DO?!


Soul, I recommend that you see a IC psychologist (not a MC) -- for a visit or two _by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your son are dealing with. I strongly suggest seeing the psych _"by yourself"_ because, when BPD is a strong possibility, your best chance of obtaining a candid opinion is to consult a professional who is ethically obligated to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. Therapists usually are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder (for her own protection).

I also suggest, while you're waiting for an appointment, that you read more about BPD traits so you know what red flags to look for. An easy place to start reading is my description of them in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, Soul.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

You sound like Robert A. Glover's definition of a nice guy. That does not mean a guy who is nice but then I'm sure you know this.

Read "No more mister nice guy". If you are indeed one of those then it'l hit home. If not then knowledge is power and you've seen another perspective.

To be honest I don't know where to start because there is a dynamic where she's emotionally stronger than you are and every consession you make diminishes her respect for you. Not as a man but as a person.

Golden rule is that compromise works both ways and sometimes only when fight for your self worth is when you get respect as having worth.


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## SoulMeetsBody (Sep 22, 2012)

Elegirl, this person I'm married to now is not the same person I married 2 years ago. More like an angry, empty, churning black hole. 
Yes, she's been diagnosed with depression before (fails to take her medicine, says she simply "forgets," and gets angry when I've tried to remind her to take them). No thyroid or other hormones levels have been checked, to my knowledge. She is also ADD. She currently has Mirena (a hormonal IUD) that her mom nearly forced her into getting (she will basically do whatever her mom and dad tell her to, and hardly ever takes my advice). I know anything that effects hormones and their levels can have major side effects, so this could be increasing or increasing the intensity of her erratic behavior.

Thundarr, I'm really not sure how to take your reply. I'm not familiar with the book, nor the author (not a very big reader). I will look into it though. If I had to guess, I'd say it's a help book on how to avoid being a doormat in relationships? Encouraging... lol.

Uptown, I think you've really hit the nail on the head. After reading your reply, I've done some research of my own (and will continue to do more) and I feel it is highly likely that she could have this disorder. I even took a few of those online tests, knowing they aren't a diagnostic tool, pretending to take it as she would, and scored in the high or severe range on all of them (I was as unbias as possible). I will most definitely be looking into seeing an IC psychologist soon. 
I really hate to take it in this direction, but I have to ask. If she is eventually diagnosed with BPD, would this help myself in a custody battle? If so, how much IYO?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

SoulMeetsBody said:


> I really hate to take it in this direction, but I have to ask. If she is eventually diagnosed with BPD, would this help myself in a custody battle? If so, how much IYO?


Soul, the answer may vary greatly from State to State. I don't know. I do know that a member of this forum reports that his attorney was able to get the custody court to order his STBXW to undergo a psychological evaluation, which showed she had BPD. In his case, I believe, he had recorded evidence that she was abusive.

Otherwise, I've never heard of anyone having such success. A divorce law firm operating in Los Angeles and Reno, for example, says -- on their website no less -- that it is difficult to get a psychologist to testify against a BPDer in court. See the third article listed at Bonne Bridges, Mueller, O'Keefe & Nichols - Articles. I therefore suggest you see a good divorce/custody attorney and find out how it works in your State.

By the way, I strongly suggest you not mention to your W that you suspect she has strong BPD traits. If she does, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you -- with the result that she will be firmly convinced YOU are the one with strong BPD traits. Projection works so beautifully as an ego defense because, unlike lying, it works entirely at the subconscious level -- thus allowing her conscious mind to believe it is true. This is why it is common for BPDers to say the most absurd things that you will simply marvel that any adult can say such a thing while holding a straight face.


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## SoulMeetsBody (Sep 22, 2012)

Uptown said:


> This is why it is common for BPDers to say the most absurd things that you will simply marvel that any adult can say such a thing while holding a straight face.


You really have been in my shoes, haven't you?
This happens most often when she is worked up over something. It's almost as if she reverts back to childish behaviors. I find myself saying "Where did that even come from?" and "How is that logic supposed to hold up, _at all_, in this situation?"

I've even been telling her lately, in the most careful way I can, that some of her irritation towards our son comes out literally on his level. Like a child trying to take care of a child. It's been worse lately, surely because of the stress in our relationship.


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## SoulMeetsBody (Sep 22, 2012)

We got into it again today, over something that most might consider ridiculous. Might as well vent while I'm on here, right?

We were at my parents house, and my grandma was there sowing festive little star-shaped pillows to give as gifts for Christmas because she's low on money. They're cute, you know? And it's sweet of her to do that for people. She is a saint, IMO.
She told me that my uncle's new wife had said she could sell them for $80 because they were so cute and unique. In the back of my mind, I was thinking "ehhh, probably not _that_ much," but I'd never say that to her. 

At the same moment, my wife overheard this in the hallway and said, loud enough so my grandma could hear, "I would _never_ spend _80 dollars_ on a _pillow_..." as rude and hateful as anyone could possibly say it.

She had absolutely no reason to blurt this out. My grandma hadn't said or done anything negative to her. I was already a little put out with her attitude before this, so this time, I lost control of myself and flipped out a little bit. I guess I was just shocked that she said that to my saint grandma. 
I got loud, not yelling, and said something along the lines of "What is wrong with you!? She is in there breaking her back sowing pillows for Christmas gifts and you want to tell her that her pillows aren't worth much!?"

We went into a bedroom and duked it out some more, but all the while she played the victim. She tried to deny that she said it rudely at all, even though my grandma had heard and replied to her comment. She tried to make me the villain, saying I shouldn't have said what I said, regardless of her comment. 
She said that my family would hate her now, because of what _I said_, not because of what she said.

Do you get where I'm going with this? I could go into more detail, but I'll spare you the trouble. 
Does this kind of behavior sound familiar to you, in your experience with your ex?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

SoulMeetsBody said:


> It's almost as if she reverts back to childish behaviors.


If she has strong BPD traits, Soul, there is no "almost" to it. That is _exactly_ what she is doing. As I noted earlier, BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits) typically experienced a trauma before age 5 that froze their emotional development. The theory is that they had to rely so heavily on their primitive ego defenses -- to survive childhood -- that they never let go enough to move on to more mature defenses. The result is that they are stuck with the defenses available to young children: projection (e.g., blame-shifting), magical thinking, lying, black-white thinking, and temper tantrums. Because she lacks the more mature adult defenses, she is not good at self soothing or intellectually challenging her intense feelings -- skills that the rest of us learned in childhood.


> Do you get where I'm going with this?.... Does this kind of behavior sound familiar to you, in your experience with your ex?


Yes, BPDers are notorious for often exhibiting an appalling lack of empathy for how someone else is feeling. The two types of empathy are cognitive (intellectually _perceiving_ how someone else must be feeling) and affective (_feeling _how someone else must be feeling). Narcissists and sociopaths typically may be very good at cognitive empathy, which makes them all the better at manipulating people. But they lack affective empathy and thus do not share another person's feelings.

In contrast, BPDers can be very good at both types of empathy -- but they cannot sustain it. When under stress or when fearful, they suddenly lose BOTH the cognitive and affective empathy. A large share of the time, then, they have no empathy whatsoever. 

On top of that, Soul, they typically become spiteful or vindictive when around a person they have split black. It sounds to me like your W's comment to your grandmother may have gone past "a lack of empathy" territory into spitefulness.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

SoulMeetsBody said:


> We got into it again today, over something that most might consider ridiculous. Might as well vent while I'm on here, right?
> 
> We were at my parents house, and my grandma was there sowing festive little star-shaped pillows to give as gifts for Christmas because she's low on money. They're cute, you know? And it's sweet of her to do that for people. She is a saint, IMO.
> She told me that my uncle's new wife had said she could sell them for $80 because they were so cute and unique. In the back of my mind, I was thinking "ehhh, probably not _that_ much," but I'd never say that to her.
> ...


Soul, have you always been asertive like this when you need to be? Reason I ask is because having self respect and calling her out when she's disrespectful regardless of intention and standing your ground and defending the feelings of your grandmother are all attractive traits to most women (people for that matter). 

Have you been the proverblial nice guy in the past? If so then don't be shocked if your newfound confidence, self worth, and expectations, cause her to change for the better. If this was always been your nature and you guys are still here the maybe the marriage is SOL. I've was in a similar situation in my first marriage. We D and had joint custody. It's amazing how much "right warrior" (her obviously  ) crap gets dropped when you aren't posturing. If your D is somewhat amacle then I wouldn't be surprised if you work well as team parent.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

SoulMeetsBody said:


> I feel it is highly likely that she could have this disorder.


Soul, I forgot to mention this earlier. Given that you suspect she has strong BPD traits, I suggest that you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com on the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board.


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## phrendlyguy (Dec 19, 2012)

Soul i'm in the same boat as you and scared to death of what could happen with myself as well. I'm to the point i have to leave just to keep my sanity


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