# What does NO SEX in Marriage Mean? Is it possible a wife wants no sex again ?



## sunchild15

So I am married and have been for 11 years. I feel like perhaps my wife is done with sex. She just continues to ignore any advances with I am tried or cant you see I want to sleep. Talking about it has not worked in the past because she avoids and deflects things back on me. Its as if everything seems fine, we talk create future plans, she speaks about all of these things like business, family, we watch movies, discuss ideas, life.. She just seems to have lost all interest in it. It's been over 3 years since any oral sex or regular sex. At night she goes to sleep, I have even told her I am going dancing, going out and she just does not seem to care too much in any way. She does not even seem jealous around anything and she just seems occupied with her work and what she wants to do.

I just have no idea what to do. I am sexual and we have a daughter and everything is great if you take sex out of the equation.

I do not want to convince, plead or beg her for intimacy. She works out and so do I, I do sports, lifting and work out and we are both healthy. I have tried asking her to go to counselor, I have even gone to counselor on my own and also other coaching.

It is frustrating though, I am sexual and I want to connect sexually. It's kind of driving me nuts...Again, why discuss as I have tried before and she just seems shut down, she does not seem to want to be sexual with anyone, she spends most time working. She has nothing to worry about as I pay all of the bills and I just cant seem to get through no matter what ..

What do I do, Take care of myself. In the past when I suggested counseling - she just says, if you take care of yourself and I take care of myself then everything will work out.


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## [email protected]

sunchild 15, perhaps there is a glandular problem or she's working too hard. But, I have known several couples with the same problem. In each case, the W was having either an EA or PA and hiding it well. In one case, whe W his it so well that there was never any indication that she was cheating. The H found out about it, maybe, ten years later. D was the result. She, most likely, is a cake eater living a double life. Don't put up with it any longer. Its the 180 my man.


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## sunchild15

We are both organic vegan. There is no EA or PA, however I do think it could be self induced stress, she tends to stay busy and have the ability to not relax, there is constant mission and perhaps its also perio-menopause, Its just bizarre but she is almost 53 years old. I do not know how to get through when I do initiate, she will just be non-responsive and then its followed by tired, what are you doing or some form of excuse. It is very frustrating as I have always been physical. But you can not make someone do anything they are not into. Its confusing to me to say the least... Its like everything else great, but there is not really anything I do or do not do that even makes an impact.


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## Tilted 1

sunchild15 said:


> There is no EA or PA, however


Those words have been muttered countless time here and over time have show it to be different. It's time for you to take the lead or settle for what you believe. Nothing will change unless you do. 

Time to step up and swing away.


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## Nucking Futs

sunchild15 said:


> We are both organic vegan. *There is no EA or PA,* however I do think it could be self induced stress, she tends to stay busy and have the ability to not relax, there is constant mission and perhaps its also perio-menopause, Its just bizarre but she is almost 53 years old. I do not know how to get through when I do initiate, she will just be non-responsive and then its followed by tired, what are you doing or some form of excuse. It is very frustrating as I have always been physical. But you can not make someone do anything they are not into. Its confusing to me to say the least... Its like everything else great, but there is not really anything I do or do not do that even makes an impact.



You say that with great assurance. Can you tell us how you've confirmed that? Or are you saying it because you believe it without confirming it?


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Selfish.


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## TJW

sunchild15 said:


> you can not make someone do anything they are not into.


Let me paraphrase. You cannot make someone do anyONE they are not into. Your wife is not "in to" you. You can ameliorate the sting of that fact by saying it's physical, it's stress, it's menopause, it's children....you can blame it on 1000 factors.... none of which are the REAL problem.

Your wife has done one of two things:

1) she has turned off her sex desire because she does not want sex with you; perhaps, she never did. She only wanted a comfort zone, knew you would spin the cocoon, and does not respect you enough to consider that YOU have needs, too.....

2) she has turned her sex desire toward someone else because she does not want sex with you, and she does not respect you enough to be a woman of her word who obeys her marital vows.

I agree with others here. 180. Hard, fast, shock and awe. Follow your wife's advice.....take care of YOURSELF.



sunchild15 said:


> there is not really anything I do or do not do that even makes an impact.


Correct. And 180, or anything else, will never have an impact upon your wife, either. Only upon you.


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## Married but Happy

File for divorce, and mean it. This may shock her out of her attitude towards you and sex, or be a relief to her. Either way, you will be better off.


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## Rowan

Before I join the pitchfork brigade, I want to be sure to clarify a few things, OP:

Is there any history, at all, of infidelity by either your wife or you?
Was the sex ever frequent, passionate, and engaged? If so, when did it stop being that way?
Are either of you suffering from any chronic illness, physical or mental? Is she on any long-term medications? 
Has she seen a doctor regarding her hormone levels? 
Was she married before? Why did that marriage end?


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## sokillme

> What does NO SEX in Marriage Mean?


It means you have a financial agreement/business partnership with the potential to have a very nice friendship. It's not a marriage at least in my book, marriage implies intimacy. 

Unless there is some sort of medical issue I would file. Life is too short.

Also don't assume there is no cheating, you wouldn't be the first.


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## dadstartingover

Obligatory link to the book I wrote for guys in your exact position: *dadstartingover.com/the-dead-bedroom-fix* . I am a sponsor of the forum and have many positive reviews on Amazon, Apple Books and Audible for the book. Good luck, my friend!


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## wilson

How old is your daughter? Can you write up a summary of your relationship and what the intimacy was like along the way? You say it's been 3 years without sex. What was it like from the beginning until that point? 

She seems very apathetic about this topic. Is she like that with the relationship in general? It sounds like you guys are at a roommate level in terms of emotional connection. That may be all she wants out of the relationship, so she's happy with the way things are. 

Unfortunately, there aren't too many happy endings for stories like yours. You have a daughter so it's worth trying to save it, but make sure you have the right attitude about this. You need to be in the mindset that a good marriage has good intimacy and that both people should want that. Don't take on the responsibility of making her want to have sex. She should want that. It's what should be normal in a marriage. If she doesn't want it or you feel like you're forcing her to want it, then understand what that means for the state of the marriage and whether it's worth saving.


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## uhtred

Did she have an active interest in sex in the past, or was her interest always limited.

Any changes in health, medications (especially anti-depressants) etc?

Any changes in family - deaths in family, new children etc?

Did her interest stop suddenly, or gradually?


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## aaarghdub

Three undeniable TAM truths:

1) You can’t negotiate desire.
2) Sex for a man is PRIMARILY emotional, ejaculation is PRIMARILY physical.
3) LD partners always have the emotional upper hand until the HD takes/threatens to take their ball and goes home. 

When it comes to sex in marriage, if both partners are not into enjoying it or get joy out of watching their spouse get-off then you need to look inward at what is robbing that joy (e.g. trauma, physical pain, fatigue, self-esteem, resentment, etc). Because at this point there is NO love in love-making. At some point, you WANTED to please your partner sexually and now you ambivalent/hostile towards it. That’s a huge rejection for man or woman. If you were dating, you’d likely get dumped.

I had to share with my wife that sex for me (and most men) is not what she thought. It was in the context of drifting apart. She has a hard enough time expressing love towards me aside from saying “i love you.” No flirting, love letters, touch, etc. Take away sex/sexual desire and that last connection is gone. My wife was shocked when I said it’s great you think about the future but that’s not a future I want.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

aaarghdub said:


> Three undeniable TAM truths:
> 
> 1) You can’t negotiate desire.
> 2) Sex for a man is PRIMARILY emotional, ejaculation is PRIMARILY physical.
> 3) LD partners always have the emotional upper hand until the HD takes/threatens to take their ball and goes home.
> 
> When it comes to sex in marriage, if both partners are not into enjoying it or get joy out of watching their spouse get-off then you need to look inward at what is robbing that joy (e.g. trauma, physical pain, fatigue, self-esteem, resentment, etc). Because at this point there is NO love in love-making. At some point, you WANTED to please your partner sexually and now you ambivalent/hostile towards it. That’s a huge rejection for man or woman. If you were dating, you’d likely get dumped.
> 
> I had to share with my wife that sex for me (and most men) is not what she thought. It was in the context of drifting apart. She has a hard enough time expressing love towards me aside from saying “i love you.” No flirting, love letters, touch, etc. Take away sex/sexual desire and that last connection is gone. My wife was shocked when I said it’s great you think about the future but that’s not a future I want.


OP,

The above, and when she told you:

"if you take care of yourself and I take care of myself then everything will work out."

Ask her what she really means when saying that.

And unless she's asexual, then when she say she takes care of herself, what does she really mean?

Is she telling you to have sex outside the marriage, does she know it seems that way?


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## EveningThoughts

As a 53 year old woman I can confirm that menopause has brought by libido way down. The mood swings, anxiety and depression from it, don't help either.

I'm not at completely zero as I will respond if I let myself, but I have to get my head into the idea first. There are no hormones to drive my desires.

I'm only chiming in as there doesn't need to be an EA or PA for someone to go off sex. It can be hormonal, it can be the state of the relationship, or it could be medication.


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## Marduk

sunchild15 said:


> So I am married and have been for 11 years. I feel like perhaps my wife is done with sex. She just continues to ignore any advances with I am tried or cant you see I want to sleep. Talking about it has not worked in the past because she avoids and deflects things back on me. Its as if everything seems fine, we talk create future plans, she speaks about all of these things like business, family, we watch movies, discuss ideas, life.. She just seems to have lost all interest in it. It's been over 3 years since any oral sex or regular sex. At night she goes to sleep, I have even told her I am going dancing, going out and she just does not seem to care too much in any way. She does not even seem jealous around anything and she just seems occupied with her work and what she wants to do.
> 
> I just have no idea what to do. I am sexual and we have a daughter and everything is great if you take sex out of the equation.
> 
> I do not want to convince, plead or beg her for intimacy. She works out and so do I, I do sports, lifting and work out and we are both healthy. I have tried asking her to go to counselor, I have even gone to counselor on my own and also other coaching.
> 
> It is frustrating though, I am sexual and I want to connect sexually. It's kind of driving me nuts...Again, why discuss as I have tried before and she just seems shut down, she does not seem to want to be sexual with anyone, she spends most time working. She has nothing to worry about as I pay all of the bills and I just cant seem to get through no matter what ..


It is possible she's asexual (although that's exceedingly rare). It's also possible she's depressed or something.

What is more probable just based on this is that she's not that into you any more.



> What do I do, Take care of myself. In the past when I suggested counseling - she just says, if you take care of yourself and *I take care of myself* then everything will work out.


And now I'm thinking that her version of taking care of herself might involve some help from a third party.

Let me tell you a story. I've told it here before. I had a buddy years ago come over with his wife and kids for a BBQ. He pulls me aside and tells me he's adjusting to his new lifestyle - because his wife has declared herself to be asexual. And he loves her and he's trying to support her through this. He's reading books, websites, the whole deal trying to depersonalize all this.

A couple weeks later his wife shows up on my doorstop and hits on me hard. Claims her husband won't sleep with her. I just laughed and threw her out. Told him. He doesn't believe me. We stop talking because he's mad and trying to support his wife and I'm just stirring up trouble and making up stories.

A while after that, he discovers that after I said no to her, she hit up his best friend. Who was married, and didn't say no to her.

Turns out she liked sex just fine. Just not with him.

Alternatively, if she is in fact just taking care of herself, that also means that she likes sex just fine, just not with you involved. Which is better than cheating, but is almost as problematic. Not masturbation per se, but preferring it over sex with you. Especially when you're wanting it so desperately.


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## aaarghdub

EveningThoughts said:


> As a 53 year old woman I can confirm that menopause has brought by libido way down. The mood swings, anxiety and depression from it, don't help either.
> 
> I'm not at completely zero as I will respond if I let myself, but I have to get my head into the idea first. There are no hormones to drive my desires.
> 
> I'm only chiming in as there doesn't need to be an EA or PA for someone to go off sex. It can be hormonal, it can be the state of the relationship, or it could be medication.



More TAM rules....

#4 No testosterone = no sexual desire 
#5 Birth control and anti-depression meds are libido killers



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## aaarghdub

Marduk said:


> Alternatively, if she is in fact just taking care of herself, that also means that she likes sex just fine, just not with you involved. Which is better than cheating, but is almost as problematic. Not masturbation per se, but preferring it over sex with you. Especially when you're wanting it so desperately.



It’s quite possible she has an avoidant attachment style/disorder



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## Marduk

aaarghdub said:


> It’s quite possible she has an avoidant attachment style/disorder
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which just means that she's currently unable to fulfill her side of being married. It might not be her fault, but it is her accountability to get herself in somewhat working order before their marriage ends.

For me the fact she was trying would mean more than if she succeeded. If she didn't even try, even if it wasn't her fault, I'd be out.


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## wilson

Marduk said:


> For me the fact she was trying would mean more than if she succeeded. If she didn't even try, even if it wasn't her fault, I'd be out.


I agree that this is a key point of consideration to decide how to move forward. Everyone knows that things change, but that doesn't absolve someone of all responsibility. Her attitude right now seems terrible for fixing this. If she avoids taking any initiative towards improving the situation, it's not worth fixing.


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## sunchild15

Did she have an active interest in sex in the past, or was her interest always limited.

- When we started going out she was passionate, we had sex in the car even while driving she would get turned on and be on me  , even in the garage and she was sexually aggressive. We had oral sex and it was healthy. She was sexual. 

Any changes in health, medications (especially anti-depressants) etc?

Once she got pregnant things kind of turned because of fibroid, which she got removed however then she had operation, but perhaps the most drastic shift was when she lost both parents within a year but this was 8 years back. She is 53, about 8 years ago too she said she has no interest in sex or libido for me or any other man either. But everytime I suggested doctor, getting checked, Doctor always said all normal and she continues to say she feels FINE, she feels great. She just spends her extra time either working or sleeping, once in bed.. lights out she cant be bothered and is non responsive 


Any changes in family - deaths in family, new children etc?

Did her interest stop suddenly, or gradually?

Its been gradually decline when her parents were not doing well it went from 1 time every 2 weeks to, 1 time every 3 months, 1 time every 6 months to one time in a year and now its been almost 4 years now, no oral pleasure, not even a massage which she used to give me a sensual a massage because she did not seem to have any interest in sex. I think psychologically she also feels that she is older and needs to save her energy. There was a point she she said when she met me it was all about sex, then sex to have a child and now, what is next. Then when we have had talks she would say, if I just had sex with you three times per week you would be happy. Its weird, she doesnt want to go to counselor, doctor and its always a redirection or goes into an argument when I bring it up. Listen, I do not want to push a wet noodle. There was even a time we would discuss and I said I want to have sex and physical connection in my life and she asked me if i wanted to date other people.. years back she used to react with crazy answer, Perhaps its menopause... But she wont go and find out what is going on at all .


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## sunchild15

I also feel that mentally someone can take themselves out of being turned on. She is always angry about politics and gets mad about president and what he is doing. It sounds bizarre, but I almost feel she is trying to prove herself in life and be independent. She has said many time, this is my way out and to be set. She feels as if she sacrifices everything in life to make it - that she will then be happy and in the meantime she is missing many opportunities to enjoy life.

I handle all finances and in perspective she has no stress on her back around trying to pay anything at all. We have frequent conversations about investments, buying places, traveling and things she wants to do in life. We go places and all is great when it comes to family time, we go on trips and do lots of things go to great restaurants, trips and etc.. However when we do go it seems as if none of these things register as if her energy is never recharged even after going to a week long trip in a different city. She will talk about many things she does not like about the US, the city we live in and how things like the system is not fair. But I feel happy is an inside job and not where you go ... 

I do not know what to do. I do not want to convince her, argue, or push someone to get assistance even after having conversations years back there was never any accountability on her part to be a cause in the relationship she would always gas light and redirect the conversation back to me. It would come in the form of shock statements, " All you care about is sex" " You just want to know how to have sex with me" I would say , I enjoy connection with her and sex and her response would be "Sex is not everything" You do not need sex to be happy" Sex is just sex... it does not validate you, or even crazy comments like maybe you should find someone else to have sex with because I am not sure if I can meet your needs. All kind of cazy comments ...

However if its off the topic of sex, things she needs for her business or family plans, no issues if I just stay away from sex. Perhaps she has adrenal fatigue, I have no idea and I want to shift it .. Perhaps the word "marriage: has too much significance, or I have expectations that create resistance, perhaps her saying just because your married does not entitle you to anything ... Maybe I have made the idea that sex is within my marriage and relationship too important ... 

As everything else seems find and we have great connection as friends, it seems find but mentally this keeps me spinning from all is great to what is this situation here and is someone playing some kind of game, where they know what I want/need and they are intentionally withdrawing to see how much I can do for them or drive their survival. Because it just seems its always more and there are always another 30 things on the list even after we achieve the 30 things , she finds more things to keep her busy to not be present ..

That is just a rant


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## ConanHub

She needs a good spankin.:grin2:


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## sunchild15

Marduk said:


> Which just means that she's currently unable to fulfill her side of being married. It might not be her fault, but it is her accountability to get herself in somewhat working order before their marriage ends.
> 
> For me the fact she was trying would mean more than if she succeeded. If she didn't even try, even if it wasn't her fault, I'd be out.


We have a 10 year old daughter. As i said all is great as long as I surpress my own sexuality and needs around it. We used to spend $1200 per month on the best restaurants, babysitter, and nights out.. We did date nights, but she would always be tired most of the time. I do not know, I know you can not please someone and you should also not be attached to any outcome, I guess when you feel sexual and it goes down to one time every 6 months to 0 times per year, you do think about sex still.

Like I said it feels like two worlds, One is awesome family , great conversations and trips and fun creations and the other side is "leave me alone" I am tired, what are you doing and non responsive around sex. I even trained for triathlon had trainer for 5 years and went through MMSLP along with shredding down, it was not my physical body, in fact we used to have more intimacy when I was overweight... LOL. 

I do not know. She does not even get jealous if I go out or stay out late at class or something I have. Maybe she is just too in the masculine at the moment driving her life .


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## wilson

It looks like you created almost the exact same thread a few years ago. The fact that it looks like nothing has changed in that time should help clarify what possibilities there are for the future. You need to decide what kind of life you want and take steps to make it a reality. It's clear that the path you are on is not going to lead you to the place you want to be.


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## sunchild15

I guess when it comes down to it, I am looking for answers and some way to shift this. I would love to hear both a man and womans perspective. I have been more than patient. 4 years .. I have been loving and supportive just hoping that things can shift or this may be some phase, but it does get frustrating for me to say the least.


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## sunchild15

wilson said:


> It looks like you created almost the exact same thread a few years ago. The fact that it looks like nothing has changed in that time should help clarify what possibilities there are for the future. You need to decide what kind of life you want and take steps to make it a reality. It's clear that the path you are on is not going to lead you to the place you want to be.


YES. True . It's mind boggling to say the least. Because all of the things I did were benefificial but lately nothing changes anything, Good or Bad.


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## aaarghdub

sunchild15 said:


> Any changes in health, medications (especially anti-depressants) etc?
> 
> 
> 
> Once she got pregnant things kind of turned because of fibroid, which she got removed however then she had operation, but perhaps the most drastic shift was when she lost both parents within a year but this was 8 years back. She is 53, about 8 years ago too she said she has no interest in sex or libido for me or any other man either. But everytime I suggested doctor, getting checked, Doctor always said all normal and she continues to say she feels FINE, she feels great. She just spends her extra time either working or sleeping, once in bed.. lights out she cant be bothered and is non responsive



My wife’s doctor said she was “fine” but when she went to a pay-for-service place they showed her that her hormones were all messed up and her testosterone level was barely above zero. Insurance doesn’t care that your wife has no sex drive. Mine tried out-of-pocket TRT and she was back but wasn’t thrilled with the side effects. I’m on it as well and love it. At one point, I switched from pellets back to gels so insurance would cover it but it sucked and I went to paying out-of-pocket. Now she uses my leftover gel but only has about a month supply left. 

If it was important to her she would make it an “us problem” and she has a role in working it out together.

She’s made it a YOU problem by unilaterally dropping celibacy in your lap and telling you to deal with it. And oh BTW, keeping providing for our family and being a good dad. This is a team effort and she’s having her cake and eating it too.


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## BluesPower

Listen, I am sorry but I want to be really honest...

Before that I need you to know that My Fiancé is 60 and we have sex almost daily if we have time. 

All I am saying is that, if she cared, she would do something about it. 

You need to divorce, you can write on TAM and every other board in the world and nothing is going to change. 

She may be in menopause, she may not be attracted to you, she may be having some type of affair, who knows. 

What I do know is that you cannot fix her. So if you want to be happy divorce her. If you are too scared to do that, then you sentence yourself to purgatory for the rest of your life. 

Your choice...


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## Marduk

sunchild15 said:


> We have a 10 year old daughter. As i said all is great as long as I surpress my own sexuality and needs around it. We used to spend $1200 per month on the best restaurants, babysitter, and nights out.. We did date nights, but she would always be tired most of the time. I do not know, I know you can not please someone and you should also not be attached to any outcome, I guess when you feel sexual and it goes down to one time every 6 months to 0 times per year, you do think about sex still.
> 
> Like I said it feels like two worlds, One is awesome family , great conversations and trips and fun creations and the other side is "leave me alone" I am tired, what are you doing and non responsive around sex. I even trained for triathlon had trainer for 5 years and went through MMSLP along with shredding down, it was not my physical body, in fact we used to have more intimacy when I was overweight... LOL.
> 
> I do not know. She does not even get jealous if I go out or stay out late at class or something I have. Maybe she is just too in the masculine at the moment driving her life .


It might be interesting to ask if she'd care if you dated other people on the side.


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## TJW

sunchild15 said:


> she wont go and find out what is going on at all


She doesn't need to "find out". She already knows.



sunchild15 said:


> I handle all finances
> her saying just because your married does not entitle you to anything ...
> there was never any accountability on her part
> she would always gas light and redirect the conversation back to me.
> " All you care about is sex"
> she said when she met me it was all about sex, then sex to have a child and now, what is next.


More excuses. She gave you "audition sex" because she knew without that, she couldn't "hook" you. But, the reality was, to her, sex was something to be done once before each pregnancy, as quickly as possible. Now that she has the child she had sex for, there's no further point.

The lack of accountability you speak of has been governing your marriage and was a factor in your courtship. She is telling you her TRUE belief that "marriage does not entitle you to anything".....however, it does seem to entitle her to someone who handles all the finances and shoulders all the responsibility.

An earlier poster said "Selfish". You are married to a completely self-centered person.


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## *Deidre*

I echo the person talking about divorce. You sound like you've tried to work through this, and while it might sound like a trite reason to divorce (no sex), it really is more than that. Much more. Your wife is fine with you paying the bills and ''taking care of her,'' but she doesn't seem to feel that she has any obligation to taking care of you. Sex shouldn't be an obligation, but if she isn't in the mood, she could provide you with pleasure now and again, but she doesn't care. And she knows you won't leave. She doesn't care that you are not happy, and she knows you won't leave.

Nothing will change her, except perhaps, thinking that you MIGHT leave. Thinking that you're not an old shoe that she can rely on, even if she doesn't show affection or intimacy. I don't get the sense that she's cheating, though. I just feel that she doesn't care about you, she just cares about the lifestyle you provide.

Sure, there could be medical reasons and depression, but I kind of feel those are lazy excuses, to be honest. If she has energy to travel and work out, then she should have energy to have sex at least one time per week.


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## Marduk

*Deidre* said:


> I echo the person talking about divorce. You sound like you've tried to work through this, and while it might sound like a trite reason to divorce (no sex), it really is more than that. Much more. Your wife is fine with you paying the bills and ''taking care of her,'' but she doesn't seem to feel that she has any obligation to taking care of you. Sex shouldn't be an obligation, but if she isn't in the mood, she could provide you with pleasure now and again, but she doesn't care. And she knows you won't leave. She doesn't care that you are not happy, and she knows you won't leave.
> 
> Nothing will change her, except perhaps, thinking that you MIGHT leave. Thinking that you're not an old shoe that she can rely on, even if she doesn't show affection or intimacy. I don't get the sense that she's cheating, though. I just feel that she doesn't care about you, she just cares about the lifestyle you provide.
> 
> Sure, there could be medical reasons and depression, but I kind of feel those are lazy excuses, to be honest. If she has energy to travel and work out, then she should have energy to have sex at least one time per week.


Yup. It's decision time. Monogamy doesn't come with an enforced celibacy clause.

"Wife, one of two things is going to happen. We divorce and I sleep with other people, or we stay together and I sleep with other people. You've been given ample opportunity to be the one that I sleep with, and you clearly aren't interested. I'm not a monk. Decide."


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## Casual Observer

*"Her" marriage doesn't work for you.*

OK, someone has to speak up for the no EA/PA side of things. What OP is describing is not at all unlike what my sex life would have been like had I not forced the issue more than he has. It's entirely possible the wife simply has no idea what is missing from her husband's life. She could have a view of sex that's based on something that happened to her previously, and once she acquired stability, she became quite happy and content with how things are, and 100% without empathy to what her husband is missing in his life (and their marriage in general).

My wife has been content and happy about her marriage for 40 years. Notice I said "her" marriage. She managed, and I think this is more common than people realize, to move marriage from an "us" thing more to a "her" thing, once she got comfortable. She completely lost empathy towards how others felt about things she said or did. There may be valid traumatic reasons for her doing so; she wasn't born a monster.

The only way I got her to face things was the fear of me leaving. She wanted (still wants) desperately to save "her" marriage. She didn't even want to expose to the light of day (talk to anyone else, including counselors) problems within the marriage because that would be outside her construct of the marriage. Not "our" marriage, but "the" which is really "her" marriage.

Still with me? 'Cuz I've never quite looked at it this way until now.

So the threatened loss of "her" marriage led to a lot of tears, few of which, if any, had anything to do with what I've gone through. But, it drove her to MC and finally admitting to her psychologist and IC that there were some deep-rooted issues in "our" marriage and she took a small amount of responsibility for them. That led to looking into a traumatic event in her past that really affected her view of sex, and now she's in the stage of examining that past, trying to remember what she doesn't remember, and, hopefully, if she gets a handle on things... she will have an empathy influx and realize what the things she's said to me over the years have felt like... to me... and maybe things will get better.

My wife is trying, but she really doesn't know how. Things can't be helped without therapy, and therapists can only help if they know what's going on. So if you're wife doesn't talk, or leaves out the important stuff, the therapy goes flat. Which means you have to stay on top of it, keep the momentum going, if you want to get your wife back and save your marriage. 

Nothing happens if you don't put your foot down and make it clear "her" marriage doesn't work for you. The "us" requires a responsibility that she understand and empathize.


----------



## Casual Observer

Marduk said:


> It might be interesting to ask if she'd care if you dated other people on the side.


At least my wife said it outright. "If sex is so important to you, why don't you go find a hooker?" And the thing is, she said it with zero empathy or thought to what that might do to our marriage, because, as I explained elsewhere in this thread, we didn't really have an "our" marriage, she had "her" marriage. And "her" marriage was fine without sex.

Sadly, I did not go after the root problem at that time, because I didn't know there was a root problem. I doubt that I would still be married today if I hadn't come across her diary 10 months ago, and seen the dual-life she led for some time and the trauma she experienced that is likely the cause of everything since.

The dual-life really could be a huge warning sign for the possibility of a "her" marriage vs "us." The ability to separate a desired reality from real life is key. @Marduk, I am figuring things out in real time here.


----------



## BluesPower

*Re: "Her" marriage doesn't work for you.*



Casual Observer said:


> OK, someone has to speak up for the no EA/PA side of things. What OP is describing is not at all unlike what my sex life would have been like had I not forced the issue more than he has. It's entirely possible the wife simply has no idea what is missing from her husband's life. She could have a view of sex that's based on something that happened to her previously, and once she acquired stability, she became quite happy and content with how things are, and 100% without empathy to what her husband is missing in his life (and their marriage in general).
> 
> My wife has been content and happy about her marriage for 40 years. Notice I said "her" marriage. She managed, and I think this is more common than people realize, to move marriage from an "us" thing more to a "her" thing, once she got comfortable. She completely lost empathy towards how others felt about things she said or did. There may be valid traumatic reasons for her doing so; she wasn't born a monster.
> 
> The only way I got her to face things was the fear of me leaving. She wanted (still wants) desperately to save "her" marriage. She didn't even want to expose to the light of day (talk to anyone else, including counselors) problems within the marriage because that would be outside her construct of the marriage. Not "our" marriage, but "the" which is really "her" marriage.
> 
> Still with me? 'Cuz I've never quite looked at it this way until now.
> 
> So the threatened loss of "her" marriage led to a lot of tears, few of which, if any, had anything to do with what I've gone through. But, it drove her to MC and finally admitting to her psychologist and IC that there were some deep-rooted issues in "our" marriage and she took a small amount of responsibility for them. That led to looking into a traumatic event in her past that really affected her view of sex, and now she's in the stage of examining that past, trying to remember what she doesn't remember, and, hopefully, if she gets a handle on things... she will have an empathy influx and realize what the things she's said to me over the years have felt like... to me... and maybe things will get better.
> 
> My wife is trying, but she really doesn't know how. Things can't be helped without therapy, and therapists can only help if they know what's going on. So if you're wife doesn't talk, or leaves out the important stuff, the therapy goes flat. Which means you have to stay on top of it, keep the momentum going, if you want to get your wife back and save your marriage.
> 
> Nothing happens if you don't put your foot down and make it clear "her" marriage doesn't work for you. The "us" requires a responsibility that she understand and empathize.


You know, I am not downplaying anyone's trauma. No ones. 

But honestly, you make this way more complex than it needs to be. 

I know you love her and want to stay married, and I get all that she is dealing with. 

However, some of this is just not that hard. 

OP, supposedly, has actually spoken to his wife about all of this and she basically told him to FO. 

Now, to me, that is a good place to step off...


----------



## Casual Observer

*Re: "Her" marriage doesn't work for you.*



BluesPower said:


> You know, I am not downplaying anyone's trauma. No ones.
> 
> But honestly, you make this way more complex than it needs to be.
> 
> I know you love her and want to stay married, and I get all that she is dealing with.
> 
> *However, some of this is just not that hard.*
> 
> OP, supposedly, has actually spoken to his wife about all of this and she basically told him to FO.
> 
> Now, to me, that is a good place to step off...


If it wasn't that hard, it wouldn't come up so frequently. You can't fix everything with ultimatums that might be taken as extortion. For some, maybe, but for many you might begin a process that way, and that process may not be easy. Pretty much guaranteed it won't be easy. 

His wife telling him to FO... how does that make things easier? Part of this is binary, part of it may be a long drawn out process. The FO thing is supposed to make him think it's hopeless or that doing the man-up thing will fix it? I wish I was wrong and you were right. For some, it might be. For others, not.


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> At least my wife said it outright. "If sex is so important to you, why don't you go find a hooker?"


What that means is that she: 
a) views sex as a transaction
b) doesn't want to participate in the transaction
c) doesn't value sex
d) is seeking to shame you into thinking about sex like she does (manipulation).

- OR - 

a) she feels like you're valuing sex over valuing her, which makes her feel like a prostitute when she has sex with you (might be something you did).

- OR - 

a) she's already mentally/emotionally/physically moved on, and just wants you to either stop bothering her or leave (manipulation).

Thoughts?


----------



## sokillme

*Re: "Her" marriage doesn't work for you.*



Casual Observer said:


> OK, someone has to speak up for the no EA/PA side of things. What OP is describing is not at all unlike what my sex life would have been like had I not forced the issue more than he has. It's entirely possible the wife simply has no idea what is missing from her husband's life. She could have a view of sex that's based on something that happened to her previously, and once she acquired stability, she became quite happy and content with how things are, and 100% without empathy to what her husband is missing in his life (and their marriage in general).
> 
> My wife has been content and happy about her marriage for 40 years. Notice I said "her" marriage. She managed, and I think this is more common than people realize, to move marriage from an "us" thing more to a "her" thing, once she got comfortable. She completely lost empathy towards how others felt about things she said or did. There may be valid traumatic reasons for her doing so; she wasn't born a monster.
> 
> The only way I got her to face things was the fear of me leaving. She wanted (still wants) desperately to save "her" marriage. She didn't even want to expose to the light of day (talk to anyone else, including counselors) problems within the marriage because that would be outside her construct of the marriage. Not "our" marriage, but "the" which is really "her" marriage.
> 
> Still with me? 'Cuz I've never quite looked at it this way until now.
> 
> So the threatened loss of "her" marriage led to a lot of tears, few of which, if any, had anything to do with what I've gone through. But, it drove her to MC and finally admitting to her psychologist and IC that there were some deep-rooted issues in "our" marriage and she took a small amount of responsibility for them. That led to looking into a traumatic event in her past that really affected her view of sex, and now she's in the stage of examining that past, trying to remember what she doesn't remember, and, hopefully, if she gets a handle on things... she will have an empathy influx and realize what the things she's said to me over the years have felt like... to me... and maybe things will get better.
> 
> My wife is trying, but she really doesn't know how. Things can't be helped without therapy, and therapists can only help if they know what's going on. So if you're wife doesn't talk, or leaves out the important stuff, the therapy goes flat. Which means you have to stay on top of it, keep the momentum going, if you want to get your wife back and save your marriage.
> 
> Nothing happens if you don't put your foot down and make it clear "her" marriage doesn't work for you. The "us" requires a responsibility that she understand and empathize.


No offense dude if that works for you OK but I think it's more reasonable to assume anyone who doesn't get that sex is a very important like top 3 parts of a marriage is either incredibly stupid, incredibly selfish and in both cases terribly broken. Baring sexual trauma there is no excuse for this. And no matter what there is no excuse not to talk about it. Someone like that probably shouldn't be married. 

For a moment lets deal in gender stereotypes because you are a man an this analogy probably will hit home for you more if I do. (Again not saying it's any different for women, or that sexless marriages don't also affect women.) But to deal in what is a stereotypical norm for point of emphasis, imagine a wife came on here and argued her chronically unemployed husband, well my husband didn't know he had to keep a job, as far as he knows he is in a happy marriage. NO ONE would buy that nonsense. SEX in marriage work EXACTLY same way. 

The fact that someone agrees to commit that part of themselves to your spouse implies that they are committing to "Using" part of themselves. And you have a hell of a lot of nerve to ask for that from someone and then withhold that. Imagine asking someone they can only eat the food you cook and then never feeding them. Frankly if you do that baring some sort of medical issue or catastrophe in your life that happened at some point you are a very cruel person and a terrible spouse. They also have not right to continue to be in that marriage unless it is explicitly agreed upon. Like any other agreement, sex and more so intimacy as a basic tenant of marriage is implied. Quit making excuses. 

I have refrained from saying all this on your thread because you seem to be invested in staying with your wife, but this isn't your thread. I think waiting around for someone this cruel to suddenly have an epiphany and get the importance of sexual intimacy is a poor bet. It's much more likely that if they act this way they will change for a short time while the pressure is on and go right back to being an *******. I reserve the right to change my mind if there is some sort of trauma but even then marrying someone when you have that much baggage and not telling them is still a really ****ed up think to do. And I am not buying the I don't remember stuff, because you still should have the common sense and curiosity to understand that withholding sex is an awful thing to do in a relationship and try to fix it. 

Let's be honest you are much more willing to give the benefit then most. Most people would not spend years in this situation and I would say they shouldn't.

I had no idea this was important is the lamest of excuses. It's sex for Christ sake!


----------



## sokillme

Casual Observer said:


> At least my wife said it outright. "If sex is so important to you, why don't you go find a hooker?"


I wish I knew that on your other thread. In my mind I would have divorced her on that day. Someone who thinks this way is never going to be a good spouse in my mind. At the very least if you didn't want to divorce you should have gone out and found a hooker. Which my morals wouldn't allow, hence I would have divorced. There is a terrible lack of respect or even the most basic understanding of monogamy or even what marriage is about in that sentence, it is worse then just a lack of empathy. 

What you are willing to put up with is not really a model to follow in my mind.


----------



## Casual Observer

@sokillme I was offering a different explanation that commonly given here. Doing so without making it "all about me" is a difficult needle to thread, but, this really isn't all about me. It's just a scenario for OP to consider, if he hasn't already.

Also, I don't consider myself a saint for my patience. Nor do I consider myself unique. I'm just zis guy, you know? So I'm trying to rationalize here that my situation may be more applicable to others than people think. Yes, that makes me feel better about things, so yes, it may bias my beliefs and responses to posts here. We are all influenced by our experiences, not all of which were of our own making.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: "Her" marriage doesn't work for you.*



BluesPower said:


> You know, I am not downplaying anyone's trauma. No ones.
> 
> But honestly, you make this way more complex than it needs to be.
> 
> I know you love her and want to stay married, and I get all that she is dealing with.
> 
> However, some of this is just not that hard.
> 
> OP, supposedly, has actually spoken to his wife about all of this and she basically told him to FO.
> 
> Now, to me, that is a good place to step off...


Yeah more complex than it needs to be.

There are a few words that explain what kind of people these spouses are that I have been very diplomatic about using. But if it quacks like a duck. Just because it says it's a damaged swan doesn't mean it's not just a (not very nice) duck.


----------



## sokillme

Marduk said:


> What that means is that she:
> a) views sex as a transaction
> b) doesn't want to participate in the transaction
> c) doesn't value sex
> d) is seeking to shame you into thinking about sex like she does (manipulation).
> 
> - OR -
> 
> a) she feels like you're valuing sex over valuing her, which makes her feel like a prostitute when she has sex with you (might be something you did).
> 
> - OR -
> 
> a) she's already mentally/emotionally/physically moved on, and just wants you to either stop bothering her or leave (manipulation).
> 
> Thoughts?


OR really doesn't care either way.


----------



## Casual Observer

sokillme said:


> I wish I knew that on your other thread. In my mind I would have divorced her on that day. Someone who thinks this way is never going to be a good spouse in my mind. At the very least if you didn't want to divorce you should have gone out and found a hooker. Which my morals wouldn't allow, hence I would have divorced. There is a terrible lack of respect or even the most basic understanding of monogamy or even what marriage is about in that sentence, it is worse then just a lack of empathy.
> 
> What you are willing to put up with is not really a model to follow in my mind.


You might consider deleting your response here and putting it in "my" thread. I don't want to hijack OPs issue.


----------



## *Deidre*

Marduk said:


> Yup. It's decision time. Monogamy doesn't come with an enforced celibacy clause.
> 
> "Wife, one of two things is going to happen. We divorce and I sleep with other people, or we stay together and I sleep with other people. You've been given ample opportunity to be the one that I sleep with, and you clearly aren't interested. I'm not a monk. Decide."


lol Maybe a wee bit nicer than that. 0

That said, we only know the OP's side of the story. Not saying he's exaggerating or not telling the truth, but I remind myself that we can only know so much, we don't know all the details and the wife's perspective. She may be the kindest person on earth, but when it comes to sex, she's checked out. Who knows? I will say though, that I find it sad if she too doesn't ever want to have sex. When I read or hear stories like this, where one spouse doesn't ever want sex, I think...how sad that they too don't miss intimacy with their partner, especially since the OP shared here that she was very sexual early on in their relationship.

So, could be many reasons but it's always a little sad to me when one partner completely loses interest in intimacy, because he/she too is missing out on the wholeness of a relationship. That's just how I feel about it.


----------



## sokillme

Casual Observer said:


> @sokillme I was offering a different explanation that commonly given here. Doing so without making it "all about me" is a difficult needle to thread, but, this really isn't all about me. It's just a scenario for OP to consider, if he hasn't already.
> 
> Also, I don't consider myself a saint for my patience. Nor do I consider myself unique. I'm just zis guy, you know? So I'm trying to rationalize here that my situation may be more applicable to others than people think. Yes, that makes me feel better about things, so yes, it may bias my beliefs and responses to posts here. We are all influenced by our experiences, not all of which were of our own making.


Or you could just say his wife doesn't give a **** about his needs and really doesn't care if that bothers him or not. He can try to force her to and she may for a time but she told him (and your wife told you) point blank that a primary need that is to be expected in marriage is not her responsibility. I call that person a terrible spouse and not worthy of staying with. That's all. 

If you stay with a spouse who point blank tells you they don't care about a primary expected need to be fulfilled in marriage then make no mistake the outcome of that IS YOUR OWN MAKING.

The point with this is always if it were anything other responsibility like say financial there everyone would see it. 

When it comes to marriage, "not my problem" is never a valid answer.


----------



## BluesPower

*Re: "Her" marriage doesn't work for you.*



Casual Observer said:


> If it wasn't that hard, it wouldn't come up so frequently. You can't fix everything with ultimatums that might be taken as extortion. For some, maybe, but for many you might begin a process that way, and that process may not be easy. Pretty much guaranteed it won't be easy.
> 
> His wife telling him to FO... how does that make things easier? Part of this is binary, part of it may be a long drawn out process. The FO thing is supposed to make him think it's hopeless or that doing the man-up thing will fix it? I wish I was wrong and you were right. For some, it might be. For others, not.


Well, actually, it is not extortion, in any way. 

It is called a personal boundary. People are allowed to have boundaries, and needs, and they should at least have some type of expectation that they are met by their partner. If that partner is not interested, anyone can file for divorce at any time. 

But his wife is essentially telling him that his needs are unimportant and he can FO. I really don't see how anyone can see it another way. She may have reason, or FOO issues, or Menopause issues, or what ever, but if she is not working to met MY needs she is toast.

I have done it in many relationships, for different reasons, and I would def end it in this type of situation. 

I really work to meet my partners needs, whatever they are. I expect mine to be just as important. If for some reason they are not, OK, then we don't need to be together. 

I know you and others that have fought the good fight don't agree, I get that. I am just saying that some of us don't do that. Or we def don't do it any more. 

I am a catch for a lot of reasons, Sex is just one need that I have for relationships. Affection is another. Responsibility is another. Not being crazy is another. I could go on and on. 

When you are past 50 you should realize that you don't have a lot of year left where you are sexually and physically healthy, I plan on enjoying those years as long as possible. 

Hope that makes sense. (Also, please don't come at me with the long term marriage thing. I was married for 26 years and got out)


----------



## *Deidre*

Yea, I'm not a fan of ultimatums - there may be times to say enough is enough, but even then -- ''if you don't start having sex with me, I'm leaving you'' just isn't going to make you feel better or desired, IF sex starts to resume. 

Communication is key. Staying silent about it isn't the answer, but I would have a serious conversation that divorce is on the horizon because you're not happy, OP. Not fulfilled.


----------



## BluesPower

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, I'm not a fan of ultimatums - there may be times to say enough is enough, but even then -- ''if you don't start having sex with me, I'm leaving you'' just isn't going to make you feel better or desired, IF sex starts to resume.
> 
> Communication is key. Staying silent about it isn't the answer, but I would have a serious conversation that divorce is on the horizon because you're not happy, OP. Not fulfilled.


I don't know if you are calling my statement an ultimatum or not. 

But I don't think it is. Like I said it is a boundary. 

And I think that is ok. And I am not saying if this situation happens you cannot have a talk about it, sure you can do that. 

But when I say that I need to be desired and I need sex in a relationship I mean it. 

If a woman was to lose her attraction to me, OK, those are the breaks. I get it. It could happen. But if she does not talk to me about it, tell me how I could fix if she wanted it to be fixed, then see you later. 

And that is why I said that it is just not that hard. I would never be/stay with someone that was not sexually attracted to me. I just would not do it. Others may, for their own reasons, but not me. 

I don't know any other way to explain it...


----------



## uhtred

Is she on anti-depressants?

If she is not willing to try to find a solution to this, there is not much you can do. A marriage vow is not suppose to be a vow of celibacy. If she won't go to counseling, I believe you are fully in the clear telling her that you want a divorce.

I don't recommend saying you want a divorce if she doesn't have sex - you don't want sex under that condition. Just make a last attempt to see if she will go to a counselor. If not, ask for a divorce, no angry, just tell her that you do not want to spend the rest of your life celibate, and that you need sex in order to feel love. 




sunchild15 said:


> Did she have an active interest in sex in the past, or was her interest always limited.
> 
> - When we started going out she was passionate, we had sex in the car even while driving she would get turned on and be on me  , even in the garage and she was sexually aggressive. We had oral sex and it was healthy. She was sexual.
> 
> Any changes in health, medications (especially anti-depressants) etc?
> 
> Once she got pregnant things kind of turned because of fibroid, which she got removed however then she had operation, but perhaps the most drastic shift was when she lost both parents within a year but this was 8 years back. She is 53, about 8 years ago too she said she has no interest in sex or libido for me or any other man either. But everytime I suggested doctor, getting checked, Doctor always said all normal and she continues to say she feels FINE, she feels great. She just spends her extra time either working or sleeping, once in bed.. lights out she cant be bothered and is non responsive
> 
> 
> Any changes in family - deaths in family, new children etc?
> 
> Did her interest stop suddenly, or gradually?
> 
> Its been gradually decline when her parents were not doing well it went from 1 time every 2 weeks to, 1 time every 3 months, 1 time every 6 months to one time in a year and now its been almost 4 years now, no oral pleasure, not even a massage which she used to give me a sensual a massage because she did not seem to have any interest in sex. I think psychologically she also feels that she is older and needs to save her energy. There was a point she she said when she met me it was all about sex, then sex to have a child and now, what is next. Then when we have had talks she would say, if I just had sex with you three times per week you would be happy. Its weird, she doesnt want to go to counselor, doctor and its always a redirection or goes into an argument when I bring it up. Listen, I do not want to push a wet noodle. There was even a time we would discuss and I said I want to have sex and physical connection in my life and she asked me if i wanted to date other people.. years back she used to react with crazy answer, Perhaps its menopause... But she wont go and find out what is going on at all .


----------



## Girl_power

I vote for having a discussion with your wife about you have a side piece.


----------



## BluesPower

Girl_power said:


> I vote for having a discussion with your wife about you have a side piece.


You know, we say that a lot, and it is a valid solution. 

But I got so tired of sleeping around, and if you have a FWB, for me they tend to want more. I am not saying don't do that, because it could work. 

I however, really got to a point that I wanted the full relationship, building our future, being together every night, cooking dinner, fixing up the house. 

God, did I just write that?????


----------



## *Deidre*

BluesPower said:


> I don't know if you are calling my statement an ultimatum or not.
> 
> But I don't think it is. Like I said it is a boundary.
> 
> And I think that is ok. And I am not saying if this situation happens you cannot have a talk about it, sure you can do that.
> 
> But when I say that I need to be desired and I need sex in a relationship I mean it.
> 
> If a woman was to lose her attraction to me, OK, those are the breaks. I get it. It could happen. But if she does not talk to me about it, tell me how I could fix if she wanted it to be fixed, then see you later.
> 
> And that is why I said that it is just not that hard. I would never be/stay with someone that was not sexually attracted to me. I just would not do it. Others may, for their own reasons, but not me.
> 
> I don't know any other way to explain it...


I get it, that's very fair.


----------



## Marduk

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, I'm not a fan of ultimatums - there may be times to say enough is enough, but even then -- ''if you don't start having sex with me, I'm leaving you'' just isn't going to make you feel better or desired, IF sex starts to resume.
> 
> Communication is key. Staying silent about it isn't the answer, but I would have a serious conversation that divorce is on the horizon because you're not happy, OP. Not fulfilled.


Totally agree on ultimatums. They usually backfire.

The trick is to force a decision when the status quo suits them just fine, but is driving you mental.

The point is to get her to see the current state is no longer working, and is in fact an unreasonable request she is making of him. She can either choose to work on this honestly, choose to divorce, or choose for him to go elsewhere. She cannot choose for him to be celibate just because she is fine with it.

Monogamy is a tricky thing. It comes loaded with a lot of accountability on both sides. One is, well, not to have sex with someone else. Another is that you have to have a vested interest in your partner having a fulfilling life. People often forget that.


----------



## sunchild15

What happens when you communicate over and over and get redirected back to you? It could be a survival mentality when people are exhausted and tired they tend to avoid things because they do not have the energy. The main question is when is the right time? It seems pretty common sense that a partner would know based on past conversations, but how can you just ignore something like this? That is the mystery because my wife who is the same person talking to me about where we should move, what to invest money in and how to live a better live and is super sensitive and intuitive to everything else around her.. Like, literally I feel like I am in the twilight zone.. Its confusing when all looks good on one front and then you just ignore the obvious in a relationship and then to top of off its almost like she is so on her track, nothing even bothers her.


----------



## wilson

At this point, quite honestly, it's not worth fixing. The only reason to consider working on it would be if she reacted to the news with total empathy and a overwhelming desire to fix it in a meaningful way. Instead, her reluctant actions over these years shouldn't be rewarded with you taking on the monumental task of making her a passionate partner.

I'm sure the well-being of your daughter is on your mind as you consider what to do, but likely the lack of intimacy will have a much more negative effect on you than divorce will have on her. Of course divorce will be difficult on her, but unless there's some reason to think it will be abnormally harmful to her, she will get over it and adapt just fine. She won't express it now, but when she's an adult I'm sure she would want you to be happy more than staying together just to avoid divorce.


----------



## Casual Observer

Girl_power said:


> I vote for having a discussion with your wife about you have a side piece.


i would vote for having a discussion with the wife about why a “side piece” would even be appropriate. I’ve been through this. It is an ABSURD position, in marriage, for either party to suggest they get their needs taken care of elsewhere. 

The conversation at that point needs to move away from the “mechanics” of having needs taken care of and center instead on what it means to be married. What you can and cannot share with others. Why even bringing the subject up at all is an indication of a partner who has utterly failed at empathy.


----------



## Livvie

sunchild15 said:


> What happens when you communicate over and over and get redirected back to you? It could be a survival mentality when people are exhausted and tired they tend to avoid things because they do not have the energy. The main question is when is the right time? It seems pretty common sense that a partner would know based on past conversations, but how can you just ignore something like this? That is the mystery because my wife who is the same person talking to me about where we should move, what to invest money in and how to live a better live and is super sensitive and intuitive to everything else around her.. Like, literally I feel like I am in the twilight zone.. Its confusing when all looks good on one front and then you just ignore the obvious in a relationship and then to top of off its almost like she is so on her track, nothing even bothers her.


I don't think this is any mystery and is in fact shriekingly clear. She's into "discussing where to move to, what to invest money in, and how to live a better life"----- but blows off and discussion of and participation in your sex life??!!!!!!! She's only in this marriage for financial and life stability!!! 

She wants your stuff, not your junk. I don't believe I just wrote that, but....


----------



## Marduk

sunchild15 said:


> What happens when you communicate over and over and get redirected back to you? It could be a survival mentality when people are exhausted and tired they tend to avoid things because they do not have the energy. The main question is when is the right time? It seems pretty common sense that a partner would know based on past conversations, but how can you just ignore something like this? That is the mystery because my wife who is the same person talking to me about where we should move, what to invest money in and how to live a better live and is super sensitive and intuitive to everything else around her.. Like, literally I feel like I am in the twilight zone.. Its confusing when all looks good on one front and then you just ignore the obvious in a relationship and then to top of off its almost like she is so on her track, nothing even bothers her.


This is what happens when one side is getting what they want, and the other isn't. She isn't acting like a wife, she's acting like royalty that gets to decide not only which game gets played, but gets to shift the rules of the game so that she always gets to win.

Which works just fine if you're the queen. And kings and queens don't generally like to give up their power, because it means they always get what they want, and never have to worry about what anybody else wants. Any discussion is really just a game to them. It's why it just gets bounced back to you - she's just lobbing it back over the fence, because she feels it's your problem and not hers. She is doing just fine.

I suggest you stop acting like she is one. She's only sitting on this pedestal because you let her. She's not actually a queen. She's just convinced you both that she's one.

Whatever her source of perceived power over you is, take it away.


----------



## Marduk

*Deidre* said:


> lol Maybe a wee bit nicer than that. 0
> 
> That said, we only know the OP's side of the story. Not saying he's exaggerating or not telling the truth, but I remind myself that we can only know so much, we don't know all the details and the wife's perspective. She may be the kindest person on earth, but when it comes to sex, she's checked out. Who knows? I will say though, that I find it sad if she too doesn't ever want to have sex. When I read or hear stories like this, where one spouse doesn't ever want sex, I think...how sad that they too don't miss intimacy with their partner, especially since the OP shared here that she was very sexual early on in their relationship.
> 
> So, could be many reasons but it's always a little sad to me when one partner completely loses interest in intimacy, because he/she too is missing out on the wholeness of a relationship. That's just how I feel about it.


Totally agree. Whatever wording works in the relationship, use that.

However, I will say that when we've reached a crisis point and I'm just blunt about it, she may get very upset, but **** gets handled.


----------



## Casual Observer

Livvie said:


> I don't think this is any mystery and is in fact shriekingly clear. She's into "discussing where to move to, what to invest money in, and how to live a better life"----- but blows off and discussion of and participation in your sex life??!!!!!!! She's only in this marriage for financial and life stability!!!
> 
> She wants your stuff, not your junk. I don't believe I just wrote that, but....


”Her” marriage is just fine. If you asked her 5 years from now, if still married, she’d tell you, far as she was concerned, she had a happy marriage. And wonder why anyone was telling her otherwise. 

You have to break through that. It seems like it should be so easy, because it’s an absurd position. How could someone be willing to give up everything when the solution is seemingly so simple? But the OP’s wife doesn’t think there’s a need to fix anything. My wife didn’t think there was a need to fix anything.


----------



## Marduk

Casual Observer said:


> ”Her” marriage is just fine. If you asked her 5 years from now, if still married, she’d tell you, far as she was concerned, she had a happy marriage. And wonder why anyone was telling her otherwise.
> 
> You have to break through that. It seems like it should be so easy, because it’s an absurd position. How could someone be willing to give up everything when the solution is seemingly so simple? But the OP’s wife doesn’t think there’s a need to fix anything. My wife didn’t think there was a need to fix anything.


My ex didn't think so, either. Her solution to us having a bad sex life because she wasn't interested was to ask me to be celibate while she cheated on me behind my back.

Great solution for her. She got everything she wanted. Terrible solution for me, but she didn't care. Take accountability, integrity and respect out of the equation, and these are the kinds of solutions you come up with.


----------



## Girl_power

Op is there any physical affection at all?


----------



## aaarghdub

Marduk said:


> Monogamy is a tricky thing. It comes loaded with a lot of accountability on both sides. One is, well, not to have sex with someone else. Another is that you have to have a vested interest in your partner having a fulfilling life. People often forget that.



When you’re vested, you internalize owing your partner better. Each partner should create an environment where the other WANTS to stay in your marriage versus HAVING to stay for fear of divorce rape or maladjusted kids. 

Like @Marduk says, it comes down to accountability. My experience in relationships is that my partners dodge accountability but want all the benefits.


----------



## TJW

Livvie said:


> ... is in fact shriekingly clear. ......She's only in this marriage for financial and life stability!!!


Yes, and I think, when you "get to the bottom".... you will find that she has never been in the marriage for any other reason. You are "plan B beta provider boy", and have never been other than that, to her.

Welcome to the "beta club".... the one none of us men wanted to join, and were hoodwinked into believing that we were not members of, until after marriage.

We are altogether too familiar with how we have paid the price of the ticket over and over and over again, but have scratched off only losers. What we finally understand, too late, is that it is a genetic lottery. We don't control the outcomes. And, no amount of Charles Atlas, Jack LaLanne, anabolic steroids, make-out classes, really change us into an "alpha". And, unless we're an "alpha", we "just don't evoke that kind of response", not even in our wives.

My GF told me this when I was 20 or 21. Basically, that I should not expect to have sex..... thank God, I wasn't stupid enough to marry her, but I should probably have listened to her. It would have saved me a life of broken-heartedness and a huge amount of money.


----------



## sunchild15

Sure there could be a Hug here and there. Perhaps she curls up to lay down or sit on the sofa. Sometimes I kiss her and she lets me yet she doesnt respond much on that ...Or I may grab her butt ... Again she is not reacting back to me


----------



## [email protected]

sunchild15, you have been at this for 4 years! Well, if you don't DO something, it will be another 4 years. From your posts I can tell from this far away that, among her concerns, you rank about number 25. So she puts it back on you. So what. Tell her straight out that if SHE doesn't confront the problem, you will file on her. Do it and mean it! She has a nice life complaining about everything while you rug sweep. Maybe I'm wrong, but this sure looks like a long-term A of some kind. Let me be clear: She does NOT love you!


----------



## TJW

[email protected] said:


> among her concerns, you rank about number 25.


My boys used to watch a popular wrestler on TV who had a slogan ".....and that's the bottom line..."



[email protected] said:


> this sure looks like a long-term A of some kind.


One of the most insidious long-term affairs is the one which you can't discover, and the one about which the adulterer can always lie, because there's no "evidence"..... it may have actually happened in the past, or maybe it was only a fantasy..... but, nevertheless, it continues in the mind's recesses, and is powerful ....

The Lord Jesus Christ described this as "adultery of the heart". He aptly pointed out that it has the same effects as if it were an actual, physical tryst.

https://therationalmale.com/2019/07/31/alpha-widows/

I'm not a "red pill" fan, and I'm not sure that I agree with the "solutions" proposed (they don't work) - but this is an interesting read. I think it may find resonance in your perspective of your marriage.


----------



## In Absentia

well, after 4 years, your wife thinks she is "winning"... I mean, she's clearly gone off sex with you or altogether. That's fine. And you are not complaining enough. I'm amazed, though, that she doesn't think she is pushing it a bit, since you have a 10 year old. Man, that's too young to be in a divorce. 

Your wife has the right not to be wanting sex with you, but it's a tad dishonest in a marriage. She should be clear with you: husband, I don't want sex with you, you can divorce me over it, if it's that important to you. This is what she should say to you. But she doesn't want to break the family and she doesn't want to give up her comfortable life. So, she is stringing you along. Personally, I'm surprised she is not giving you a bit of pity sex to keep you there (I speak from experience... :laugh: ) Good luck! There is no solution other than to divorce her if you still want a sex life at your age...


----------



## ReformedHubby

Normally I would say give an ultimatum and see what happens. But in the OP's case it simply doesn't matter. Its been a really long time and, its not like she is giving different excuses. She flat out told him to take care of it himself. I'd advise him to make his exit. There are a handful of fellas around here that have chosen the path of waiting it out, or deluding themselves into thinking that the other parts of their marriage are good enough to justify the lack of intimacy. I think all of it eventually leads to the same path, the end of the marriage. Its just a matter of how much longer you want to remain sexless. I can't advise you to remain sexless.


----------



## ReformedHubby

TJW said:


> Yes, and I think, when you "get to the bottom".... you will find that she has never been in the marriage for any other reason. You are "plan B beta provider boy", and have never been other than that, to her.
> 
> Welcome to the "beta club".... the one none of us men wanted to join, and were hoodwinked into believing that we were not members of, until after marriage.
> 
> We are altogether too familiar with how we have paid the price of the ticket over and over and over again, but have scratched off only losers. What we finally understand, too late, is that it is a genetic lottery. We don't control the outcomes. And, no amount of Charles Atlas, Jack LaLanne, anabolic steroids, make-out classes, really change us into an "alpha". And, unless we're an "alpha", we "just don't evoke that kind of response", not even in our wives.
> 
> My GF told me this when I was 20 or 21. Basically, that I should not expect to have sex..... thank God, I wasn't stupid enough to marry her, but I should probably have listened to her. It would have saved me a life of broken-heartedness and a huge amount of money.


I know you've been hurt, but when I read your posts I often feel that your view of things is too negative. IMO one women's beta chump could very well be another woman's stud muffin (apologies, always wanted to type those words). If the OP thinks of himself as stamped on the forehead with the words beta for the rest of his life, he might as well just stay in the marriage. I personally think he can find a woman that is far more into him than his wife and be happy. I further think that relationship dynamics and sexual chemistry are more complex than simply alphas versus betas. With that said I am not saying everything you say doesn't have some truth to it. Many people in life settle down with someone they really aren't into, and that is very unfair to the other person.


----------



## In Absentia

TJW said:


> My GF told me this when I was 20 or 21.


My wife told me I was too beta after 2 kids! I did feel a bit like a sperm donor after that... :laugh:


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

In Absentia said:


> TJW said:
> 
> 
> 
> My GF told me this when I was 20 or 21.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife told me I was too beta after 2 kids! I did feel a bit like a sperm donor after that... <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" ></a>
Click to expand...

Many men when single are alpha and then become beta's in a relationship. Then they become p*ssywhipped and their wives order them around like servants or treat them as ATMs (sometimes they will insert their vaginas for cash, oftentimes not even that). 

Or they just want kids from you and then once they have fulfilled their biological imperative, you are dispensable and your penis is just an annoyance.

It's interesting that men's testosterone rises after divorce.


----------



## farsidejunky

sunchild15 said:


> What happens when you communicate over and over and get redirected back to you? It could be a survival mentality when people are exhausted and tired they tend to avoid things because they do not have the energy. The main question is when is the right time? It seems pretty common sense that a partner would know based on past conversations, but how can you just ignore something like this? That is the mystery because my wife who is the same person talking to me about where we should move, what to invest money in and how to live a better live and is super sensitive and intuitive to everything else around her.. Like, literally I feel like I am in the twilight zone.. Its confusing when all looks good on one front and then you just ignore the obvious in a relationship and then to top of off its almost like she is so on her track, nothing even bothers her.


You stop talking about it...and actually do something about it.

But that would require that YOU actually have to change, rather than begging, pleading, or demanding that she change.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Marduk said:


> This is what happens when one side is getting what they want, and the other isn't. She isn't acting like a wife, she's acting like royalty that gets to decide not only which game gets played, but gets to shift the rules of the game so that she always gets to win.
> 
> Which works just fine if you're the queen. And kings and queens don't generally like to give up their power, because it means they always get what they want, and never have to worry about what anybody else wants. Any discussion is really just a game to them. It's why it just gets bounced back to you - she's just lobbing it back over the fence, because she feels it's your problem and not hers. She is doing just fine.
> 
> I suggest you stop acting like she is one. She's only sitting on this pedestal because you let her. She's not actually a queen. She's just convinced you both that she's one.
> 
> Whatever her source of perceived power over you is, take it away.


This is what it comes down to in a nutshell.

OP, why are you allowing her to be comfortable in the midst of your discomfort?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

There are steps you can take, OP.

But...you have to be willing to rockk the boat...to the point that it just might capsize.

Are you willing to capsize your marriage to enhance your sex life? Only you can answer that. 

But...if it's NO, then you might as well quit trying...just go find some hobbies...or take the cowards way out and cheat. 

If it is YES, then you are going to have to be willing to stop doing everything nice for your wife. Everything. No listening. No serving her coffee. No rubbing her feet. No spending time with her. No nothing.

You become your own man in the marriage, and choose to do things you want without ANY regard for her.

If she never asks why, never gets mad, etc., then the marriage is toast. She is checked out.

If she does get mad about it, then you know she is still invested. Now you have something to work with. 

"Wife, when you are ready to make me a priority in your life, then I am ready to do the same."

Let your actions speak for you, rather than whining, begging, pleading, and sulking over your dead sex life.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## aaarghdub

[email protected] said:


> Let me be clear: She does NOT love you!



She likely “loves” him like a sibling/family member. What separates marital love from loving your kids or family is erotic love. Guess what’s missing here? Honestly, they could divorced and her feelings would still the same. 

Another possibility is she has very low self esteem and has been treated terrible by other men. So she’s waiting for you to do the same so that she can confirm to herself that she is worthless. On a conscious level, it will be all your fault.

Bottom line - men NEED erotic love from their partners... period.


----------



## *Deidre*

Marduk said:


> My ex didn't think so, either. Her solution to us having a bad sex life because she wasn't interested was to ask me to be celibate while she cheated on me behind my back.
> 
> Great solution for her. She got everything she wanted. Terrible solution for me, but she didn't care. Take accountability, integrity and respect out of the equation, and these are the kinds of solutions you come up with.


I think I remember your story? Was your wife the one who claimed men hit on her wherever she went? lol I remember many here suggesting for you to leave her. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.


----------



## ReformedHubby

aaarghdub said:


> She likely “loves” him like a sibling/family member. What separates marital love from loving your kids or family is erotic love. Guess what’s missing here? Honestly, they could divorced and her feelings would still the same.
> 
> Another possibility is she has very low self esteem and has been treated terrible by other men. So she’s waiting for you to do the same so that she can confirm to herself that she is worthless. On a conscious level, it will be all your fault.


I don't see any kind of love in this at all. She is completely ignoring his needs, thats not a loving relationship. If she only had platonic love for him I would think she would at least show some empathy for him. I don't see that. I can only go on what I am reading, and I don't see love, or even mutual respect in this situation.


----------



## Marduk

*Deidre* said:


> I think I remember your story? Was your wife the one who claimed men hit on her wherever she went? lol I remember many here suggesting for you to leave her. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.


Lol, not sure. Both my ex and my current wife get hit on all the time. Price you pay for marrying attractive women. 

My point was just to hammer home that when the relationship is optimized for one person at the expense of the other, that's not symbiosis, its parasitism.


----------



## Tron

In Absentia said:


> Your wife has the right not to be wanting sex with you, but it's a tad dishonest in a marriage. She should be clear with you: husband, I don't want sex with you, you can divorce me over it, if it's that important to you. This is what she should say to you. But she doesn't want to break the family and she doesn't want to give up her comfortable life. So, she is stringing you along. Personally, I'm surprised she is not giving you a bit of pity sex to keep you there (I speak from experience... :laugh: ) Good luck! *There is no solution other than to divorce her if you still want a sex life at your age...*


This coming from a man who should take his own advice.


----------



## In Absentia

Tron said:


> This coming from a man who should take his own advice.


Lol... yes, I know exactly what I'm talking about... :laugh:


----------



## Mybabysgotit

TJW said:


> Yes, and I think, when you "get to the bottom".... you will find that she has never been in the marriage for any other reason. You are "plan B beta provider boy", and have never been other than that, to her.
> 
> Welcome to the "beta club".... the one none of us men wanted to join, and were hoodwinked into believing that we were not members of, until after marriage.
> 
> We are altogether too familiar with how we have paid the price of the ticket over and over and over again, but have scratched off only losers. What we finally understand, too late, is that it is a genetic lottery. We don't control the outcomes. And, no amount of Charles Atlas, Jack LaLanne, anabolic steroids, make-out classes, really change us into an "alpha". And, unless we're an "alpha", we "just don't evoke that kind of response", not even in our wives.
> 
> My GF told me this when I was 20 or 21. Basically, that I should not expect to have sex..... thank God, I wasn't stupid enough to marry her, but I should probably have listened to her. It would have saved me a life of broken-heartedness and a huge amount of money.



The only difference between what you call "beta" and "alpha" is the ability to take action. The beta man will have a million excuses of why they can't act on a situation and the alpha man will always take swift, concise action.


----------



## BluesPower

ReformedHubby said:


> I know you've been hurt, but when I read your posts I often feel that your view of things is too negative. IMO one women's beta chump could very well be another woman's stud muffin (apologies, always wanted to type those words). If the OP thinks of himself as stamped on the forehead with the words beta for the rest of his life, he might as well just stay in the marriage. I personally think he can find a woman that is far more into him than his wife and be happy. I further think that relationship dynamics and sexual chemistry are more complex than simply alphas versus betas. With that said I am not saying everything you say doesn't have some truth to it. Many people in life settle down with someone they really aren't into, and that is very unfair to the other person.


You think he is too negative???? Really???

He has not has sex for 4 YEARS. Are you kidding me? 

I would not have gone 4 weeks. 

You have got to be kidding with that statement.


----------



## Marduk

BluesPower said:


> You think he is too negative???? Really???
> 
> He has not has sex for 4 YEARS. Are you kidding me?
> 
> I would not have gone 4 weeks.
> 
> You have got to be kidding with that statement.


One of my best and oldest friends was in that scenario. Hadn't had sex with his wife for four years. He was very sexual, and so was she, until she wasn't. At least not with him. 

He tried his hardest to accept this and work with her on this. She wouldn't budge an inch. It was always him, him, him... An endless string of therapists and MCs and books and things that he had to do differently. Somehow, she didn't have to do anything. Because, you know, you can't force sex.

Turns out the problem was actually her male yoga instructor, who moved in a couple days after he moved out. Her only problem in this whole process was his continued existence and increasing demands to matter in his marriage.

It's why nothing he could do worked, except to leave.


----------



## BluesPower

Marduk said:


> One of my best and oldest friends was in that scenario. Hadn't had sex with his wife for four years. He was very sexual, and so was she, until she wasn't. At least not with him.
> 
> He tried his hardest to accept this and work with her on this. She wouldn't budge an inch. It was always him, him, him... An endless string of therapists and MCs and books and things that he had to do differently. Somehow, she didn't have to do anything. Because, you know, you can't force sex.
> 
> Turns out the problem was actually her male yoga instructor, who moved in a couple days after he moved out. Her only problem in this whole process was his continued existence and increasing demands to matter in his marriage.
> 
> It's why nothing he could do worked, except to leave.


Yeah, this is why I just say call in the dogs and piss on the fire. 

4 years, give me a break...


----------



## ReformedHubby

BluesPower said:


> You think he is too negative???? Really???
> 
> He has not has sex for 4 YEARS. Are you kidding me?
> 
> I would not have gone 4 weeks.
> 
> You have got to be kidding with that statement.


I was responding to @TJW not the OP, I interpreted his response to the OP to basically mean once a beta chump always a beta chump. I felt that advice was too negative. Meaning I do think the OP has a shot at happiness, but why would he give it a chance if we advise him that he is the problem and no woman will want him in that way no matter what he does.


----------



## *Deidre*

Marduk said:


> Lol, not sure. Both my ex and my current wife get hit on all the time. Price you pay for marrying attractive women.


 Yea, I've been hit on without my husband around, but I don't share it with him - I imagine he does too. You just deal with it, and don't encourage it. I think there's really no valid reason to share it with one's spouse/partner other than to make him/her jealous. 



> My point was just to hammer home that when the relationship is optimized for one person at the expense of the other, that's not symbiosis, its parasitism.


Gotcha, and agree.


----------



## BluesPower

ReformedHubby said:


> I was responding to @TJW not the OP, I interpreted his response to the OP to basically mean once a beta chump always a beta chump. I felt that advice was too negative. Meaning I do think the OP has a shot at happiness, but why would he give it a chance if we advise him that he is the problem and no woman will want him in that way no matter what he does.


OK, fair enough. 

But is will say, if OP is being a Beta, and I won't have that argument - it's a thing, then he needs to change that. And he needs to change that now. 

Most of all he needs to divorce his wife, that would be the first step to stop being a beta chump...


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

BluesPower said:


> ReformedHubby said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was responding to @TJW not the OP, I interpreted his response to the OP to basically mean once a beta chump always a beta chump. I felt that advice was too negative. Meaning I do think the OP has a shot at happiness, but why would he give it a chance if we advise him that he is the problem and no woman will want him in that way no matter what he does.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, fair enough.
> 
> But is will say, if OP is being a Beta, and I won't have that argument - it's a thing, then he needs to change that. And he needs to change that now.
> 
> Most of all he needs to divorce his wife, that would be the first step to stop being a beta chump...
Click to expand...

You don't have to divorce to stop being a beta chump. You just get a fk pad and a tinder app and you will find your inner alpha.


----------



## aquarius1

farsidejunky said:


> There are steps you can take, OP.
> 
> But...you have to be willing to rockk the boat...to the point that it just might capsize.
> 
> Are you willing to capsize your marriage to enhance your sex life? Only you can answer that.
> 
> But...if it's NO, then you might as well quit trying...just go find some hobbies...or take the cowards way out and cheat.
> 
> If it is YES, then you are going to have to be willing to stop doing everything nice for your wife. Everything. No listening. No serving her coffee. No rubbing her feet. No spending time with her. No nothing.
> 
> You become your own man in the marriage, and choose to do things you want without ANY regard for her.
> 
> If she never asks why, never gets mad, etc., then the marriage is toast. She is checked out.
> 
> If she does get mad about it, then you know she is still invested. Now you have something to work with.
> 
> "Wife, when you are ready to make me a priority in your life, then I am ready to do the same."
> 
> Let your actions speak for you, rather than whining, begging, pleading, and sulking over your dead sex life.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


QFT. This.

As the woman in one of these kind of relationships for over 15 years i can tell you these truths.
I was the partner who avoided sex
I made everything else in my life a priority, except him. Kids, work, everything.
The longer i focused on other things the easier it became to NOT focus on the sexual aspect.
I struggled through 10 years of menopause. Not fun. Other issues too.
I NEVER cheated.
Now, some people may not believe this, but i honestly did NOT understand or know how important physical connection was to my husband. I thought he was a sex maniac. 
The longer you go without it, the harder it is to cross that gap between you. It seems almost impossible so you dont try.

My point and my advice:
She either doesn’t understand or doesn't care.
Her body is undergoing some changes that are embarrassing and foreign. Its not just fixed with hormones.
She knows you will stay.
You have become beta. You think if you help around the house she will want to be with you. No.
You cannot make her change. You cannot make her see.
Take care of yourself. Make yourself the priority. Know your worth.
Do some reading to confirm what you already know. That you need physical intimacy to connect emotionally.
Find your voice. Find your strength. Stop being Mr Nice Guy for her. As fsj said, cut her off.
Honestly be prepared to walk away.


----------



## ReformedHubby

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> You don't have to divorce to stop being a beta chump. You just get a fk pad and a tinder app and you will find your inner alpha.


LoL, I'm sorry. I'm not sure why I find your post humorous. I guess its because you make it sound like its as easy as ordering a pizza. I do think the OP can find what he is looking for in a woman. I am curious if he is happy in his relationship with everything outside of the sex part. If he isn't just running out and having sex isn't going to fix anything. I say this because his wife's indifference to his need for intimacy makes me wonder how invested she is in general.


----------



## oldtruck

has the OP checked the phone bill to see any numbers that get a high number of
calls, texts, emails.

Check out wife FB.

Does wife have what's app?

hire a PI. the way you use a Dr to rule out medical issues you need a PI to rule
out there being an OM.


----------



## TJW

Thanks to @aquarius1 for telling the truth. Especially, the part about being prepared to walk away. If you aren't ready to walk, and keep on walking, you can do nothing. All the power will remain hers.


----------



## sunchild15

TJW said:


> My boys used to watch a popular wrestler on TV who had a slogan ".....and that's the bottom line..."
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most insidious long-term affairs is the one which you can't discover, and the one about which the adulterer can always lie, because there's no "evidence"..... it may have actually happened in the past, or maybe it was only a fantasy..... but, nevertheless, it continues in the mind's recesses, and is powerful ....
> 
> The Lord Jesus Christ described this as "adultery of the heart". He aptly pointed out that it has the same effects as if it were an actual, physical tryst.
> 
> https://therationalmale.com/2019/07/31/alpha-widows/
> 
> I'm not a "red pill" fan, and I'm not sure that I agree with the "solutions" proposed (they don't work) - but this is an interesting read. I think it may find resonance in your perspective of your marriage.



I have read rationale male and many of those books too. Sure its interesting , Ive read many of those books too. In the last four years I have definitely worked on mental states and reviewed lots of materials for myself as a solution and for leadership development


----------



## sunchild15

oldtruck said:


> has the OP checked the phone bill to see any numbers that get a high number of
> calls, texts, emails.
> 
> Check out wife FB.
> 
> Does the wife have what's app?
> 
> hire a PI. the way you use a Dr to rule out medical issues you need a PI to rule
> out there being an OM.



Yes, I have. She's not big on FB, she spends much of her time on business creating. She does, but nothing on her phone, We even have audio and camera in our whole place in all rooms. She tends to be busy with work and responsibilities around it...I know ive checked because it does not make sense to me either ..


----------



## sunchild15

aquarius1 said:


> QFT. This.
> 
> As the woman in one of these kind of relationships for over 15 years i can tell you these truths.
> I was the partner who avoided sex
> I made everything else in my life a priority, except him. Kids, work, everything.
> The longer i focused on other things the easier it became to NOT focus on the sexual aspect.
> I struggled through 10 years of menopause. Not fun. Other issues too.
> I NEVER cheated.
> Now, some people may not believe this, but i honestly did NOT understand or know how important physical connection was to my husband. I thought he was a sex maniac.
> The longer you go without it, the harder it is to cross that gap between you. It seems almost impossible so you dont try.
> 
> My point and my advice:
> She either doesn’t understand or doesn't care.
> Her body is undergoing some changes that are embarrassing and foreign. Its not just fixed with hormones.
> She knows you will stay.
> You have become beta. You think if you help around the house she will want to be with you. No.
> You cannot make her change. You cannot make her see.
> Take care of yourself. Make yourself the priority. Know your worth.
> Do some reading to confirm what you already know. That you need physical intimacy to connect emotionally.
> Find your voice. Find your strength. Stop being Mr Nice Guy for her. As fsj said, cut her off.
> Honestly be prepared to walk away.


Funny, I am Aquarius too. LOL
I have read " No More Mr. Nice Guy" Cut her off? That means from what? Perhaps she does not care because it's not a priority for her and she is pre-occupied and in this space of menopause. I know I can find a bunch of scenarios why emotionally she is not there. I know my worth because I am a leader, build companies, was in Marines, Workout and I have worked on myself through reading and courses that push me to new levels of life. I am the guy who only cares about sex when I bring it up. I have tried explaining my needs, 5 love languages, counselor in which when I put my foot down and she was yelling, I drew the line and said I can not take her being negative anymore and perhaps I should find my own place. All of sudden she wanted to work on the relationship and I scheduled with intimacy/marriage counselor and I went and she did not . Then its like, your the one who has the issue and is not happy .. not me, why do I have to go . anyways .. I have communicated around this topic how I feel and in the past she amplifies what I communicate that ALL i care about is SEX. Almost to shame me, but I say that is not ALL i care about, then she says why dont you be honest and admit it .. But it is not true.. I want to be connected and want responsiveness.. Not just sex, who wants to have sex with someone who is not inspired by it ... She used to be, Its a merry go round at this point.

The most confusing thing is all else is great .. Just stay off this topic ...


----------



## sunchild15

ReformedHubby said:


> LoL, I'm sorry. I'm not sure why I find your post humorous. I guess its because you make it sound like its as easy as ordering a pizza. I do think the OP can find what he is looking for in a woman. I am curious if he is happy in his relationship with everything outside of the sex part. If he isn't just running out and having sex isn't going to fix anything. I say this because his wife's indifference to his need for intimacy makes me wonder how invested she is in general.



Sure. Everything outside of the sex part, that is what is so confusing. I guess she is many times more opinionated than me at times where I am more positive: shes more black and white and doesn't monitor how she says things..


----------



## aquarius1

sunchild15 said:


> Funny, I am Aquarius too. LOL
> I have read " No More Mr. Nice Guy" Cut her off? That means from what? Perhaps she does not care because it's not a priority for her and she is pre-occupied and in this space of menopause. I know I can find a bunch of scenarios why emotionally she is not there. I know my worth because I am a leader, build companies, was in Marines, Workout and I have worked on myself through reading and courses that push me to new levels of life. I am the guy who only cares about sex when I bring it up. I have tried explaining my needs, 5 love languages, counselor in which when I put my foot down and she was yelling, I drew the line and said I can not take her being negative anymore and perhaps I should find my own place. All of sudden she wanted to work on the relationship and I scheduled with intimacy/marriage counselor and I went and she did not . Then its like, your the one who has the issue and is not happy .. not me, why do I have to go . anyways .. I have communicated around this topic how I feel and in the past she amplifies what I communicate that ALL i care about is SEX. Almost to shame me, but I say that is not ALL i care about, then she says why dont you be honest and admit it .. But it is not true.. I want to be connected and want responsiveness.. Not just sex, who wants to have sex with someone who is not inspired by it ... She used to be, Its a merry go round at this point.
> 
> The most confusing thing is all else is great .. Just stay off this topic ...


Agreed you have had many Alpha moments in your life. Thats why you want to take charge and FIX this.
But this one is out of your control.
And you are trying to fix something that she clearly doesn't SEE as a problem.
How do you make her see?
You don’t. You can’t. And that's the worst part.
You want her to have a revelation. Because you love her but this is like being in a prison.
You dont want to leave, but you can't continue to exist like this.
Can you live like this for another 10, 20 years?
Do you even want to?

Ive outlined my journey and my lessons.
But the part i didnt tell you about was my husband’s comments whenever i read him these sad tales of men being denied basic human connection.
«*Make a decision*» he said. «*Either stay for the kids and resign yourself to a life without connection to the most important person in your world, or choose to free yourself from being minimized and get out. Leave*» 
If you have tried, REALLY TRIED to gain her understanding (and it sounds like you have) then you have to walk away with a clear conscience.


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## TJW

aquarius1 said:


> this one is out of your control.
> you are trying to fix something that she clearly doesn't SEE as a problem.


Yep. There's no problem with your leadership, your dedication, you have sought every source of help possible. It's just NOT YOU that's the problem. And, until, and IF, your wife ever sees HERSELF as the problem, and HERSELF as failing to live up to her marital promises (and she won't, while she is blaming you - "you only want sex" - "being married doesn't entitle you" - etc.... it won't get fixed.
@aquarius1 pretty much wrapped it up.

A lot (LOT) of us resigned ourselves to a life without connection for the kids. I sure don't regret that I made that choice. It didn't get me what I wanted, but I protected the boys by being there.

You have your own set of circumstances and your own decision. I don't think anyone who thinks could possibly say that your wife has not abandoned her marriage.


----------



## In Absentia

TJW said:


> "being married doesn't entitle you"



well, being married doesn't entitle him... :laugh: But I agree with the advice. It looks like all avenues have been exhausted. Time to file?


----------



## farsidejunky

sunchild15 said:


> Funny, I am Aquarius too. LOL
> 
> I have read " No More Mr. Nice Guy" Cut her off? That means from what? Perhaps she does not care because it's not a priority for her and she is pre-occupied and in this space of menopause. I know I can find a bunch of scenarios why emotionally she is not there. I know my worth because I am a leader, build companies, was in Marines, Workout and I have worked on myself through reading and courses that push me to new levels of life. I am the guy who only cares about sex when I bring it up. I have tried explaining my needs, 5 love languages, counselor in which when I put my foot down and she was yelling, I drew the line and said I can not take her being negative anymore and perhaps I should find my own place. All of sudden she wanted to work on the relationship and I scheduled with intimacy/marriage counselor and I went and she did not . Then its like, your the one who has the issue and is not happy .. not me, why do I have to go . anyways .. I have communicated around this topic how I feel and in the past she amplifies what I communicate that ALL i care about is SEX. Almost to shame me, but I say that is not ALL i care about, then she says why dont you be honest and admit it .. But it is not true.. I want to be connected and want responsiveness.. Not just sex, who wants to have sex with someone who is not inspired by it ... She used to be, Its a merry go round at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> The most confusing thing is all else is great .. Just stay off this topic ...


That is gaslighting 101. Your response to it being all about sex, rather than being defensive, should be the opposite.

"You're damn right. Why are your panties still on?" With your best wicked grin. 

That said, you eloquently laid out all the reasons you were a leader...shortly followed by all the TALKING you have done to resolve this.

So, Marine. What was your general impression of a Gunny (Or Company Commander if you were commissioned) who was all talk?

Your ACTIONS continue to communicate that this situation is okay, and your defensiveness in the face of her gaslighting is further eroding her respect for you, and your respect for yourself.

Stop allowing it, leader. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## BluesPower

sunchild15 said:


> Funny, I am Aquarius too. LOL
> I have read " No More Mr. Nice Guy" Cut her off? That means from what? Perhaps she does not care because it's not a priority for her and she is pre-occupied and in this space of menopause. I know I can find a bunch of scenarios why emotionally she is not there. I know my worth because I am a leader, build companies, was in Marines, Workout and I have worked on myself through reading and courses that push me to new levels of life. I am the guy who only cares about sex when I bring it up. I have tried explaining my needs, 5 love languages, counselor in which when I put my foot down and she was yelling, I drew the line and said I can not take her being negative anymore and perhaps I should find my own place. All of sudden she wanted to work on the relationship and I scheduled with intimacy/marriage counselor and I went and she did not . Then its like, your the one who has the issue and is not happy .. not me, why do I have to go . anyways .. I have communicated around this topic how I feel and in the past she amplifies what I communicate that ALL i care about is SEX. Almost to shame me, but I say that is not ALL i care about, then she says why dont you be honest and admit it .. But it is not true.. I want to be connected and want responsiveness.. Not just sex, who wants to have sex with someone who is not inspired by it ... She used to be, Its a merry go round at this point.
> 
> The most confusing thing is all else is great .. Just stay off this topic ...


I don't understand why you don't get this... 

All of the "shaming" and bull **** she is saying is manipulation. She is lying to you, and she know it, she is controlling you. 

SHE IS NOT ATTRACTED TO YOU, SHE IS NOT IN LOVE WITH YOU, IF SHE EVER WAS...

This is where you are making a mistake, you think she has some kind of point to all of this, she does not.

It is called gas lighting. Look it up. 

See, she knows that even you would have the balls to divorce her if she said that following: 

"Husband, I don't love you, not sure if I ever did, I settled for you. I know it sucks but that is how it is. 

I care for you like a brother or close friend but there is no sexual attraction what so ever.

I don't want to have sex with you any more, I want you to do all of the husband things that you do to make my life easier, but sexually and romantically, we are done."

Now if she said that, you would get the idea and stop flogging yourself with the bull **** notion that you are doing something wrong. 

I really hope somehow that you are getting this...


----------



## jlg07

sunchild15 said:


> *What happens when you communicate over and over and get redirected back to you?* It could be a survival mentality when people are exhausted and tired they tend to avoid things because they do not have the energy. The main question is when is the right time? It seems pretty common sense that a partner would know based on past conversations, but how can you just ignore something like this? That is the mystery because my wife who is the same person talking to me about where we should move, what to invest money in and how to live a better live and is super sensitive and intuitive to everything else around her.. Like, literally I feel like I am in the twilight zone.. Its confusing when all looks good on one front and then you just ignore the obvious in a relationship and then to top of off its almost like she is so on her track, nothing even bothers her.


So, DON'T accept her turning the conversation back on you -- just keep to YOUR point and ignore when she tries to turn it back.
If SHE wants to talk about moving, investing, live a better life, then tell her you will talk all about that after you have talked about your intimacy issues. Refuse to talk with her about the other stuff until she is willing to seriously address this issue. Be rude if you have to --"Are you willing to talk about our intimacy issues? No, well then there is no need to talk about any of these things". You need to make the point that this isn't just sex -- it is INTIMACY between you both. If she wants a business partner, then that isn't a marriage. You need to make sure she knows how VERY UNHAPPY you are with your marriage -- she seems to be oblivious (or doesn't care), but it WILL AFFECT your marriage -- so her "all is good and we are heading to a new house, and a great retirement" for the future isn't going to happen if you don't get this cleared up. There will be NO MOVE if you don't get this figured out (at least not together). You HAVE TO MEAN THIS and follow through though, so don't say it if you don't plan to follow through. Think about it -- what if she calls your bluff? Are you willing to move out, move to a different bedroom, what?

If she doesn't have the energy to talk about this, then she shouldn't have energy to talk about moving, investments etc.. DO NOT let her side track you on this at all. You have to stand up to her doing this and not allow it or you will NEVER improve your communications with her, which you both need.


----------



## happiness27

sunchild15 said:


> We are both organic vegan. There is no EA or PA, however I do think it could be self induced stress, she tends to stay busy and have the ability to not relax, there is constant mission and perhaps its also perio-menopause, Its just bizarre but she is almost 53 years old. I do not know how to get through when I do initiate, she will just be non-responsive and then its followed by tired, what are you doing or some form of excuse. It is very frustrating as I have always been physical. But you can not make someone do anything they are not into. Its confusing to me to say the least... Its like everything else great, but there is not really anything I do or do not do that even makes an impact.


Four things: 

Menopause. I entered when I was 50. It DOES effect sexual desire. It removes it for some women. For some women, a really, really good hormone replacement therapy doctor can formulate a plan that will help a woman stay viable sexually. It would involve replacing estradiol, progesterone (important that these are BOTH together), testosterone and DHEA. Possibly pregnenolone also. Also involved is an estrogen cream for vaginal application 2-3X/week. 

Time of day/night. For me, personally, at night, I am tired. We get up at 5 or 5:30 a.m. and by 10:30 at night, I have an overwhelming desire to sleep. My sex drive kicks in midday. So, in order to address this situation, either my husband needs to convey his flirtations earlier in the evening or we have marathons on weekend days. My whole point here, though, is TIMING could be a factor.

Third. She needs to talk about what would satisfy her sexually and anything that is missing that would improve her desire. Not talking and acting disinterested or passive is hurtful and mean if she hasn't even told you what she wants and likes. This is a "lean in" conversation - meaning both she and you need to treat this as a critical conversation and not just something to ignore. You have a right to a reasonable and satisfying sexual relationship with your wife. 

Fourth: At 53 years old, a woman may or may not feel she is sexy looking. It doesn't matter if YOU think she is. It matters a LOT that SHE thinks she is. There's a ton of competition for men's sexual attention and women are highly aware of that. This particular point in a woman's life is an important time to build many facets of the relationship that build a sense of relationship safety that help women feel more secure about their marriage sex life.


----------



## In Absentia

happiness27 said:


> This particular point in a woman's life is an important time to build many facets of the relationship that build a sense of relationship safety that help women feel more secure about their marriage sex life.



All good points... if the OP's wife can be bothered about their sex life. It seems to me she couldn't care less...


----------



## TJW

@jlg07 has it.

I'm only going to add that seeing an attorney first, before you have this conversation, is a good idea. Know where you're going to be if your wife refuses, and you have to follow through.

You may be in for quite a financial bath and a custodial fight. Know. Then act.

If you're prepared to endure the aftermath, you will go to this conversation with resolve and determination. Which, it sounds like to me, you will need, because your wife just doesn't care about it. She is preoccupied with materialism.


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## aquarius1

happiness27 said:


> Four things:
> 
> Menopause. I entered when I was 50. It DOES effect sexual desire. It removes it for some women. For some women, a really, really good hormone replacement therapy doctor can formulate a plan that will help a woman stay viable sexually. It would involve replacing estradiol, progesterone (important that these are BOTH together), testosterone and DHEA. Possibly pregnenolone also. Also involved is an estrogen cream for vaginal application 2-3X/week.
> 
> Time of day/night. For me, personally, at night, I am tired. We get up at 5 or 5:30 a.m. and by 10:30 at night, I have an overwhelming desire to sleep. My sex drive kicks in midday. So, in order to address this situation, either my husband needs to convey his flirtations earlier in the evening or we have marathons on weekend days. My whole point here, though, is TIMING could be a factor.
> 
> Third. She needs to talk about what would satisfy her sexually and anything that is missing that would improve her desire. Not talking and acting disinterested or passive is hurtful and mean if she hasn't even told you what she wants and likes. This is a "lean in" conversation - meaning both she and you need to treat this as a critical conversation and not just something to ignore. You have a right to a reasonable and satisfying sexual relationship with your wife.
> 
> Fourth: At 53 years old, a woman may or may not feel she is sexy looking. It doesn't matter if YOU think she is. It matters a LOT that SHE thinks she is. There's a ton of competition for men's sexual attention and women are highly aware of that. This particular point in a woman's life is an important time to build many facets of the relationship that build a sense of relationship safety that help women feel more secure about their marriage sex life.


Thank you for this happiness27.

After reading a different thread where we actually heard BOTH sides of the story, I am going to somewhat modify my stance.

These issues need to be included in consideration. I experienced every single one of them during menopause. And the peri-menopausal period can be VERY bumpy for some women, with flooding periods, terrible mood swings and COMPLETE lack of sex drive. Not to mention the mental/emotional side effects.
HRT is not an option for every woman, but there are things that can help somewhat.

While I stand firm that a woman needs to be "enlightened" as to the importance of a continued intimate relationship with her male partner (if that is important to him), it's also equally important that a man help to educate himself about what could be a MAJOR transitional time in a woman's life, both physically and mentally.

Perhaps instead of picking up "His needs, Her Needs" kind of books you can read books by women on menopause, and watch some YouTube videos. It's quite an eye opener. 
This is where communication needs to come into the picture. No judgement. Curiosity. What's happening here? What are you going through? Can I help? Help me understand. Here's what I'm going through. Let me help you understand where I am coming from.

Not changing opinions, but offering another viewpoint.


----------



## Ed3n

It's not always am affair when a partner loses interest in sex. My desire is almost noon existent. Once I'm having sex it's fine, but flipping the switch to be in the mood is extremely difficult. Trust me, I'm not having an affair, of any kind. Nope. Menopause has been brutal. I used to love sex, and couldn't get enough. Now, I love it when I'm having it, but otherwise could care less.

OP, would your wife be willing to have her hormones checked.


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## aaarghdub

aquarius1 said:


> While I stand firm that a woman needs to be "enlightened" as to the importance of a continued intimate relationship with her male partner (if that is important to him), it's also equally important that a man help to educate himself about what could be a MAJOR transitional time in a woman's life, both physically and mentally.



Totally agree this is a two-sided educational endeavor. Prior to menopause, if the woman thinks sex is about ejaculation and has nothing to do with the emotional well-being of a man you have a ticking time bomb post-menopause. If sex was a battle when she had a sex drive, imagine when she doesn’t. If sex was your primary connection, you’re in for a challenge.

From a guy’s POV, you really need to wrap your head around the fact your wife will turn into different person. Doesn’t mean that’s bad just means the only type love you’re likely gonna get from then on out is platonic and familial. Erotic love is hormone-driven so that’s out of there.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## red oak

sunchild15 said:


> I also feel that mentally someone can take themselves out of being turned on. She is always angry about politics and gets mad about president and what he is doing. It sounds bizarre, but I almost feel she is trying to prove herself in life and be independent. She has said many time, this is my way out and to be set. She feels as if she sacrifices everything in life to make it - that she will then be happy and in the meantime she is missing many opportunities to enjoy life.
> 
> I handle all finances and in perspective she has no stress on her back around trying to pay anything at all. We have frequent conversations about investments, buying places, traveling and things she wants to do in life. We go places and all is great when it comes to family time, we go on trips and do lots of things go to great restaurants, trips and etc.. However when we do go it seems as if none of these things register as if her energy is never recharged even after going to a week long trip in a different city. She will talk about many things she does not like about the US, the city we live in and how things like the system is not fair. But I feel happy is an inside job and not where you go ...
> 
> I do not know what to do. I do not want to convince her, argue, or push someone to get assistance even after having conversations years back there was never any accountability on her part to be a cause in the relationship she would always gas light and redirect the conversation back to me. It would come in the form of shock statements, " All you care about is sex" " You just want to know how to have sex with me" I would say , I enjoy connection with her and sex and her response would be "Sex is not everything" You do not need sex to be happy" Sex is just sex... it does not validate you, or even crazy comments like maybe you should find someone else to have sex with because I am not sure if I can meet your needs. All kind of cazy comments ...
> 
> However if its off the topic of sex, things she needs for her business or family plans, no issues if I just stay away from sex. Perhaps she has adrenal fatigue, I have no idea and I want to shift it .. Perhaps the word "marriage: has too much significance, or I have expectations that create resistance, perhaps her saying just because your married does not entitle you to anything ... Maybe I have made the idea that sex is within my marriage and relationship too important ...
> 
> As everything else seems find and we have great connection as friends, it seems find but mentally this keeps me spinning from all is great to what is this situation here and is someone playing some kind of game, where they know what I want/need and they are intentionally withdrawing to see how much I can do for them or drive their survival. Because it just seems its always more and there are always another 30 things on the list even after we achieve the 30 things , she finds more things to keep her busy to not be present ..
> 
> That is just a rant


Your first paragraph is common. Seen it often. 
Classic sublimation. 
Often takes years before it sets solidly. 
Saddening.
Not much advice can be given to help maintain the marriage aside from accepting her terms or taking charge if she doesn’t go on the offensive.


----------



## DTO

aaarghdub said:


> Doesn’t mean that’s bad just means the only type love you’re likely gonna get from then on out is platonic and familial. Erotic love is hormone-driven so that’s out of there.


Hormones aside, if you're not getting any post-menopause it's because she's not trying. The raging lust might not be there, but she can (and should be) intentional about providing regularly if not as frequently as before.


----------



## Casual Observer

DTO said:


> Hormones aside, if you're not getting any post-menopause it's because she's not trying. The raging lust might not be there, but she can (and should be) intentional about *providing regularly* if not as frequently as before.


I have a bit of trouble with the idea that sex is a one-sided thing that you "provide" your partner. It should be, I think, seen as a shared experience. The positive aspect of that shared experience may be different to each person, but the benefits it brings to the overall relationship are positive for both parties, not just the one "providing." 

If sex is an opportunity for abusiveness, this doesn't apply. But I don't think most cases of "I'm done with sex; I really don't need it at all, but could put up with it once or twice a month" have anything to do with abuse. In most cases I think it's a misunderstanding of what sexual intimacy means to their partner. If they knew, they would at least have some empathy, but empathy is missing in almost every single thread on sexless or nearly-sexless marriage. The person denying or declining or ambivalent about sex seems able to create their own separate idea of the happiness of their marriage, a view that doesn't take into consideration the feelings of their spouse.


----------



## Cynthia

sunchild15 said:


> I have tried explaining my needs, 5 love languages, counselor in which when I put my foot down and she was yelling, I drew the line and said I can not take her being negative anymore and perhaps I should find my own place. All of sudden she wanted to work on the relationship and I scheduled with intimacy/marriage counselor and I went and she did not .


And that is when you could have decided to follow through on your threat. Clearly it mattered to her when she thought she was losing you, but you caved and she went back into complacency. People don't tend to change unless it is more work to remain the same than it is to change.

You say that your wife is not having an affair and hopefully she's not, but your story reminds me of this thread: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/consi...298-getting-ready-drop-news.html#post17818890 The OP @Cromer, hasn't posted in over a year, but his story is relevant to yours.
He posted a follow up here: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/415794-post-divorce-issues.html#post19238866
At first he couldn't understand why his wife hadn't had sex with him in (I think) 10 years and he was fed up. He finally decided to divorce her. After he told her that they were getting divorced, the truth came out. She had cheated on him years before, got an STD and hid it from him. She had surgery due to the STD. She was afraid of giving it to Cromer, so she stopped having sex with him permanently. He didn't know what was wrong, but all along it stemmed from her cheating. Here's where he tells the story: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/consi...-getting-ready-drop-news-25.html#post19101458
Your story remind me so much of Cromer that I think it may have some bearing on your situation.
Have you asked your wife why she's married to you? That might give you some insight into what's going on. 
I recommend that you heed any advice you get from @farsidejunky. He was serious about making the changes necessary to have a healthier marriage and it has paid off for him. It wasn't easy. He had to be willing to lose his marriage in order to save it, but save it he did.


----------



## DTO

Casual Observer said:


> I have a bit of trouble with the idea that sex is a one-sided thing that you "provide" your partner. It should be, I think, seen as a shared experience. The positive aspect of that shared experience may be different to each person, but the benefits it brings to the overall relationship are positive for both parties, not just the one "providing."


I said she should be intentional. That is not the same as doing it only for her partner.

You are exactly right in that there should be positive aspects to sex that go beyond satisfying one's physical urges. You should be moved to do it because it strengthens the marriage and satisfies your partner in that way only you can. If that doesn't motivate you, the lack of investment in the relationship and / or your partner is the real issue - not hormones.

People whose actions are dictated by what's easy, convenient, or expedient aren't good relationship partners and you're going to have relationship issues with such a person - sexual or otherwise.


----------



## DTO

aquarius1 said:


> As fsj said, cut her off. Honestly be prepared to walk away.


This is the best advice and you need to take it to heart.

I did the sucking up, sticking it out, etc. thing during my marriage. Didn't have any lasting change. At best, she would have a spurt of sexuality followed by even less sex than normal, then a reversion to the mean. And it was because she didn't care enough about my needs to address the relationship issues.

Having learned my lesson, with the last ladies I've dated for more than the short term I'm much more cut-and-dried. I'm clear with my needs and break it off, or she'll break it off because she can tell that "well he doesn't like it but he won't do anything about it" won't happen with me any more. And I'm much better off for having made that change in approach.


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## BluesPower

Casual Observer said:


> I have a bit of trouble with the idea that sex is a one-sided thing that you "provide" your partner. It should be, I think, seen as a shared experience. The positive aspect of that shared experience may be different to each person, but the benefits it brings to the overall relationship are positive for both parties, not just the one "providing."


No, I am sorry. People that do this are abusive. This is abuse. 

Maybe it would not be abuse is they honestly said find someone else, maybe, but it is not the same. 

That is what people that do this in a marriage, they are abusers...


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## aquarius1

As someone who traveled this road I honestly agree that through the peri-menopausal journey (10 years on average according to my Ob/Gyne) there are a lot of issues that can dampen your sex drive.
Post menopausally it didn't exist.
However, when I decided to consciously make a choice for my partner's needs and my marriage I found that the more sex we had, the more I wanted. 
It wasn't easy at first, lots of changes. But with a patient and committed partner it is possible.
In the past I would change temporarily, only to go back to previous behaviour.
I reached a tipping point of no return. We were both ready to divorce and I figured I'm going to give it one last shot so that I know when I walk away I have done EVERYTHING I could. Going back to the status quo was NOT an option, so I was propelled forward.
There were false starts and fall backs, but I knew that the alternative was divorce. He has never talked divorce. When he did the reality hit me. This could really be the end.


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## aaarghdub

aquarius1 said:


> I reached a tipping point of no return. We were both ready to divorce and I figured I'm going to give it one last shot so that I know when I walk away I have done EVERYTHING I could. Going back to the status quo was NOT an option, so I was propelled forward.


The trend seems to be that for many women the only way to find out sex means more than ejaculation to a man is seeing him willing to the end marriage over it. So one of two things happens: you do what @aquarius1 did (owning it) or you get divorced and tell everyone you divorced because your husband has a sex problem (blame-shifting).

In another thread awhile ago a guy was in MC and the counselor said to her (I’m paraphrasing); lemme get this straight... you like sex when it happens but you’re willing to lose half your stuff, half the time with you kids, your standard of living, incur huge legal bills and be a single mom to avoid doing something you like?” She didn’t have an answer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia

aaarghdub said:


> or you get divorced and tell everyone you divorced because your husband has a sex problem (blame-shifting).


My wife said to me I was divorcing her because of sex. I said "no!" And she laughed... I find incredible she didn't "get me" in the 30 years we've been together... and I explained it to her 300 times...


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## BluesPower

In Absentia said:


> My wife said to me I was divorcing her because of sex. I said "no!" And she laughed... I find incredible she didn't "get me" in the 30 years we've been together... and I explained it to her 300 times...


What you refuse to understand, EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE TOLD YOU OVER 3000 TIMES, is that she does get it. 

She gets every part of it, why do you think she had a break down when you were about to file the papers or leave or whatever, she gets it. 

She gets and she gets you, she has actively, knowingly, maliciously, keep you in chains your entire marriage. And you like the "Stockholm's syndrome" co-dependent boob that you are... you actually believe that she does NOT understand... 

If, God willing, you are able to get out of this hell, and you are able to find a normal woman that loves you, your world will be something that you have never believed that it could be... 

Bless you...


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## In Absentia

BluesPower said:


> Bless you...


 @BluesPower I know you are right... I will answer you in my thread...


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## Marduk

In Absentia said:


> My wife said to me I was divorcing her because of sex. I said "no!" And she laughed... I find incredible she didn't "get me" in the 30 years we've been together... and I explained it to her 300 times...


"No, I'm divorcing you because you don't care enough to even listen to me, and this is the proof."

(Walks away)


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## Nirvanasky

Tell her that you are going to a get laid by someone else this Weekend and see how she will react


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## PieceOfSky

aquarius1 said:


> As someone who traveled this road I honestly agree that through the peri-menopausal journey (10 years on average according to my Ob/Gyne) there are a lot of issues that can dampen your sex drive.
> Post menopausally it didn't exist.
> However, when I decided to consciously make a choice for my partner's needs and my marriage I found that the more sex we had, the more I wanted.
> It wasn't easy at first, lots of changes. But with a patient and committed partner it is possible.
> In the past I would change temporarily, only to go back to previous behaviour.
> I reached a tipping point of no return. We were both ready to divorce and I figured I'm going to give it one last shot so that I know when I walk away I have done EVERYTHING I could. Going back to the status quo was NOT an option, so I was propelled forward.
> There were false starts and fall backs, but I knew that the alternative was divorce. He has never talked divorce. When he did the reality hit me. This could really be the end.


aquarius1,

Thanks for sharing. Reports of such turnarounds are rare here, especially from the spouse with lower desire. I can think of only one or two, in my handful of years reading here.

I’m convinced there will be no such turnaround here in my marriage. But it’s good to know it’s sometimes possible. And interesting that your turnaround began with consciously making a choice.


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## Sfort

As others have suggested, say to her, "I realize you are no longer interested in sex. I'm not willing to quit yet. Do you have any problem with me having an affair?"

If she's honest, the answer might surprise you. Whether you ultimately decide to have an affair is another matter.


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## aquarius1

PieceOfSky said:


> aquarius1,
> 
> Thanks for sharing. Reports of such turnarounds are rare here, especially from the spouse with lower desire. I can think of only one or two, in my handful of years reading here.
> 
> I’m convinced there will be no such turnaround here in my marriage. But it’s good to know it’s sometimes possible. And interesting that your turnaround began with consciously making a choice.


Indeed. What I rarely discuss is WHY the turnaround. Under normal circumstances we probably would have separated. The thought of divorce was not my main motivator.

In the fall of that year I faced a major health crisis MAJOR. I won't go into the gory details but suffice it to say that I contemplated my mortality and faced my choices in life.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I don't believe that people have much energy to change unless they are forced to take a good, long look at their life and their choices.

I am thankful for what I went through. It taught me to start living my life. :wink2:


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## DTO

In Absentia said:


> My wife said to me I was divorcing her because of sex. I said "no!" And she laughed... I find incredible she didn't "get me" in the 30 years we've been together... and I explained it to her 300 times...


Actually she probably gets right where you are coming from. You are saying "it's not just about getting off. It's an integral part of my emotional connection to you and not some sort of bonus when everything is going well". She is saying "I don't care what it means to you - if I don't feel like it I'm not going to have it".

It's about how SHE views sex in a relationship. And if she's convinced that it's optional and not essential, you'll never convince her otherwise. In fact, pushing for change will (at some point) drive resentment because in her eyes you should be fine without it (while still being a loving and attentive husband, of course).


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## DTO

Sfort said:


> As others have suggested, say to her, "I realize you are no longer interested in sex. I'm not willing to quit yet. Do you have any problem with me having an affair?"
> 
> If she's honest, the answer might surprise you. Whether you ultimately decide to have an affair is another matter.


Most ladies would not tolerate an affair. In their eyes sex is optional so refusing to provide it is not wrong or a problem.


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## Sfort

DTO said:


> Most ladies would not tolerate an affair. In their eyes sex is optional so refusing to provide it is not wrong or a problem.


Sex is not optional.


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## arbitrator

*Late to the party here, @sunchild15 ~ but has an ultimatum been delivered to her, greatly to the effect, that marriage counseling is going to be a mandatory event if this marriage is going to remotely continue?*


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## DTO

Sfort said:


> Sex is not optional.


I completely agree with your sentiment. But the truth is that lots of ladies (and some dudes as well) DO feel this way. They see it as "icing on the cake", something you do when you're into it and everything has fallen into place, etc.

Just reality. And if the two partners don't agree on this, then you're not sufficiently compatible.


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## [email protected]

Sunchild, you are being held prisoner. Divorce her. It's clear she doesn't need you. Get someone who does.


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## sunchild15

Thanks for the comments. Well, I know I am definitely attached to the sex desire part because I think about after 3 years of it not being existent. It is a tough spot because everything seems great as long as I do not bring up intimacy or sex because most of the time there is an excuse or old lady behavior, its 945 pm at night, I want to get some rest and she gets up late in the am because she is tired. She seems really tired and easily irritated at times. It's kind of crazy or perhaps its menopause. Perhaps she only has so much energy. It's comical because she can spend any time in the day or evening even up to 12:30-1 AM working with no rules. When it comes to her making dinner or the kitchen she seems to feel like that is much more important than anything else even the fact that I pay all of the bills while she is building her new company. I guess I do get angry because she has relentless time for his business and that seems to take priority over most things these days. Maybe she is on a mad scientist mission and that mission perhaps she is so attached to she does not see much else expect where she wants to go. As I said, she discusses investments with me, future plans, real estate and all sorts of topics. It's a Mind-boggling puzzle. I feel like saying something but feel she will respond as before - what if I take it off her and say - I want to have a physical connection with her and that is just not her priority and I am just wondering what my options are if she has no interest anymore. I love her but another part of me feels lonely and ignored and so that is where it gets tricky - she seems just retired to any of it that sleep, exercise, her work, and food mean more than all else. I sat back staying hyper-focused on my business and gave her lots of space without many initiations or discussing this. She just seems to be fine with spending her time working and sleep seems more important .. It's frustrating for me, frankly I am not sure talking will help unless I just say I do not know what I am going to do


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## Livvie

You're working hard at making excuses for her, rationalizing, refusing to look at the truth, and it's like all of these pages of discussion didn't happen. You're spinning your wheels.

She's not interested in you sexually at all.

Take it or leave it.


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## TJW

Livvie said:


> She's not interested in you sexually at all.
> Take it or leave it.


Especially due to the fact she has no income, before you "leave it", consult an attorney. It may be the case that "...it's cheaper to keep her...". 



BluesPower said:


> She gets and she gets you, she has actively, knowingly, maliciously, keep you in chains your entire marriage.


Exactly correct. She is completely self-centered in ALL her choices. She is entitled to start a business, have no income, do what she wants, while you bust your a$$ to keep her in food, clothes, and shelter. BTDT, I still have the t-shirt.

May God reward her according to her works, and you according to yours. Her works are evil, but I doubt she will see it that way.


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## sunchild15

ok. well, she always seems to work very hard definitely. I just know how to generate much more profits in less work. She was in business before with manufacturing and its always her needing a bunch of people and money before she gets to the money


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## Anon898989

I'm basically in the same situation, except we have no kids and have been married a year. It has all been a dry spell after marriage, and like all the responses on here, I get the divorce card. I suppose it's easier in my situation, but I know your pain. It's a struggle. As you say, take "sex" out of the equation, and it changes the perspective. So much so that I question myself, and whether I have a "sex addiction", yet I think wanting sex >0 times isn't an addiction.


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## Affaircare

Okay let's get one thing clear. I don't think either one of you gentlemen has a sexual addiction. Normal, typical red-blooded couples have sex 2-5 times a week (or something like every other or every third day) well into the 60's and beyond. So no, it is NOT normal to be young, healthy, and sexless. Wanting sex less than once-a-month is considered a sexless marriage. 

So confirm that in your head. You are NOT a pervert or sexually addicted because you want to have sex with your own spouse. In reality, people marry to form a stable unit in which to raise their children, and in order to have a morally acceptable sexual outlet. 

Let me give you AN EXAMPLE (I am not advocating you do this--just using an illustration to show you how twisted sexless thinking is). Many men feel like or say that their wives only married them for their paycheck...just like many women feel like or say that their husbands only married them for their looks or their body. Well... yep! People marry for what they need in a relationship! So what would your wife do if you did to HER what she did to YOU? How would she react if you just unilaterally decided, one day, that you would no longer deposit your paycheck into the "joint" account? How would she react if you were no longer interested in being "the earner" and that you decided to quit your job and sit around on the couch all day doing FB and games? How would she react if you did stay working, but just withheld all "your" money from her and told her she better shape up and change or she'd NEVER see any money from you? As a partner in the marriage, you can't just make unilateral decisions like that can you? AND YET SHE DID!!! She just unilaterally decided to withhold from you...just in the same way that you would if you just decided to withold all your money and spend it on you. 

That is a twisted and broken way of thinking, isn't it?


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## sunchild15

Yes, it is. It's amazing how people act. I do not want to be an ass, sometimes my wife will ***** about helping in the kitchen and she is the only one that does anything around the house with making food and that she is not the slave. If I said well I am not the workhorse and that I am the only one paying any bills that without the money I make there would be no food and the ability to have your time to run your company. Her response would be something like - oh, poor baby - you just have a tough life....Its almost like she sees what she does as more valuable than what I do that cooking a few meals while I handle two rents and all the overhead expenses as non-significant that is what is supposed to be done. She does her share and makes food and handles the house and that is super valuable. But why can she complain and if I say anything at all, it gets blown off. Perhaps its me not wanting to argue and stay cool and not ***** ... The other day I was doing work around the house, kitchen and all and there is always something she finds to complain or have an opinion about - I started laughing to myself saying it would not matter if I did everything under the sun as there would always be something else being missed or to do. Lately in life/work, I have found that you can find an endless list of things to say you need to do before this and that. It never ends and it only does if you make it a priority in your life. If family calls and you're in the middle of work and you STOP what you're doing and talk for an hour that is because you place value on that to stop what your doing because it's important to you. Just like the dollar in this economy, they wake up early without any issues with no excuses because they have a mission for work and to make money. If you had a mission to make your relationship and connection a priority it would not matter what time it was in your day - you would make time. That is where things go wacky when a dollar becomes more important. If your husband supports the family and the living expenses are ignored as if the goose that lays the golden egg. You kill the Goose, no golden eggs. I guess the question is how you allow people to treat you. It's not that she is mean, she just puts more effort into her business, sleep and work and responsibilities than relaxing and pleasure. Perhaps her pleasure is in that someday being "successful" when she gets there, then there is always something else is there not? But why do people, in general, ignore their sexuality? They would rather complain about the government, the president and society than make a difference or do something that is inspiring in the world.. Not all people but lately - did people know more SEX boosts your immune system, surely that makes sense to me and gets me excited and to someone else, they think that is funny .. Because maybe they do not need sex, they need money ?? Who knows ?


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## Livvie

Why are you going on generally about people and business and lack of wanting sex?

It's really simple. People have sex with spouses they are attracted to and want to have sex with.

Yours doesn't. What are you going to do about that?


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## Personal

sunchild15 said:


> Who knows ?


While ever you continue to prefer whining about a lack of sex to no end, while doing absolutely nothing of substance to actually have sex. It is extremely likely you will never ever share any sex at all with anyone for the rest of your life going forward.

Until you actually get sick of volunteering for celibacy and stop doing that, nothing will change for you.

So if you don't actually want to be celibate, take responsibility for yourself and stop choosing to be celibate.


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## In Absentia

Affaircare said:


> How would she react if you just unilaterally decided, one day, that you would no longer deposit your paycheck into the "joint" account?


She would say that he is blackmailing her into having sex with him...


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## Livvie

In Absentia said:


> Affaircare said:
> 
> 
> 
> How would she react if you just unilaterally decided, one day, that you would no longer deposit your paycheck into the "joint" account?
> 
> 
> 
> She would say that he is blackmailing her into having sex with him...
Click to expand...

Well, so what if she were to say that? People say a whole manner of untrue, inaccurate, and dysfunctional things.


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## Prodigal

If you want to go off on intellectual meanderings and musings, fine by me. No skin off my nose. 

But here's the bottom line: Your wife apparently does not find you sexually attractive. You are a paycheck. There are no consequences for her actions, other than you whining/complaining occasionally.

Stay and have no sex or leave and possibly have sex.

That's the way it is. Quit complaining and suck it up. Or leave. SERIOUSLY.


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## hinterdir

You've been posting, complaining about your wife for about three months now. 
Why?
You apparently aren't going to do anything. 
A take charge guy would have already filed for divorce or demanded an open marriage and point blank tell her to her face that he did not get married to spend the rest of his life celibate and it is absolutely ridiculous to expect you to go without sex.
You haven't done anything and you seem too afraid to upset her. 
Hell, I've only read your situation for the last 10 minutes and I'm pissing mad. 
I'd be ready to end the marriage while I'm still old enough to go live life and have romantic, passionate times with someone.
She doesn't appear to have any ability to EVER meet this need for you. 
It is over. 
Just live without sex for the rest of your life or divorce her, have affairs or just have an open marriage where you have sex with other women and she does whatever she does. 
Either way, it has been 3 months (and someone mentioned you posted YEARS ago with the same problem) and you will not do anything. 
If you won't salvage some life for yourself after years of this, apparently you never will. 
Are you just wanting to complain and you want an online audience for it?


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## Prodigal

hinterdir said:


> Are you just wanting to complain and you want an online audience for it?


You would be amazed at the number of people who post here who are doing just ^^this.^^


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## farsidejunky

In Absentia said:


> She would say that he is blackmailing her into having sex with him...



In which case she becomes an ideal candidate for the curb. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Sunchild, your lack of willingness to be unreasonable will lead you to more of the same. 

Eventually you will get sick and tire of being sick and tired. Clearly you aren’t there yet. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sunchild15

No. Perhaps I am spinning in circles because I am still in disbelief. You think your doing all the things right and you can not figure it out. Its super puzzling.


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## Personal

sunchild15 said:


> No. Perhaps I am spinning in circles because I am still in disbelief. You think your doing all the things right and you can not figure it out. Its super puzzling.


The only puzzling thing, is that you keep clutching your pearls to no end.

Your wife is evidently loathe to have sex with you and has been for a long time. Considering your evident passivity, this shouldn't be a surprise.

Until (if) you decide you don't like being celibate nothing will change for you.


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## In Absentia

Livvie said:


> Well, so what if she were to say that? People say a whole manner of untrue, inaccurate, and dysfunctional things.


yes, of course, but you underestimate the damage it can do to the male psyche... same as "you are leaving me because of sex"...


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## In Absentia

farsidejunky said:


> In which case she becomes an ideal candidate for the curb.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



See my reply to Livvie...


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## notmyrealname4

hinterdir said:


> Y
> Either way, it has been 3 months (and someone mentioned you posted YEARS ago with the same problem) and you will not do anything.


Hee hee. It's been four years since he started his first thread. I recognize his avi by sight now, lol.


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## Diceplayer

sunchild15 said:


> No. Perhaps I am spinning in circles because I am still in disbelief. You think your doing all the things right and you can not figure it out. Its super puzzling.


Actually sir, you're not doing anything right. You are being submissive and letting your wife control the situation while you sit back and whine about it. That's probably one of the reasons that she's not attracted to you. Women do not want a whiner. Nothing will change until you grow a pair and take action. You've gotten plenty of good advice here so you should know what to do. So either do it or live with what you have. Nothing will change until you change.


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## Livvie

In Absentia said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, so what if she were to say that? People say a whole manner of untrue, inaccurate, and dysfunctional things.
> 
> 
> 
> yes, of course, but you underestimate the damage it can do to the male psyche... same as "you are leaving me because of sex"...
Click to expand...

Rework it to: the damage I *let it* have on ME. There are plenty of men who would laugh off the ridiculousness of such a dysfunctional statement coming from someone who makes the marriage sexless and is trying to play victim.


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## BluesPower

sunchild15 said:


> No. Perhaps I am spinning in circles because I am still in disbelief. You think your doing all the things right and you can not figure it out. Its super puzzling.


This is such a male trait... You want to fix it, you cannot understand it. 

The thing is, sometimes things are that simple and because you are in denial you cannot see the answer. 

YOUR WIFE IS NOT SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO YOU. IF SHE LOVES YOU AT ALL IT IS LIKE A BROTHER. 

Your romantic life with her is dead and gone, and there is nothing that you can do about it. 

You need to file for divorce ASAP and try to find happiness...


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## Prodigal

sunchild15 said:


> No. Perhaps I am spinning in circles because I am still in disbelief. You think your doing all the things right and you can not figure it out. Its super puzzling.


No, you're spinning in circles as a way to avoid attacking the issue with your wife head on.

Why are you attempting to figure her out? Why not spend your time figuring out why you're too weak to leave? Seriously.


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## sunchild15

ok


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## She'sStillGotIt

hinterdir said:


> You've been posting, complaining about your wife for about three months now.
> Why?
> You apparently aren't going to do anything.


Of course he's not.

Another poster mentioned that he had another post a few years ago about this same exact topic, so it's obvious he's not going to do anything about it but ask for advice then shoot everyone's suggestions down.



> A take charge guy would have already filed for divorce or demanded an open marriage and point blank tell her to her face that he did not get married to spend the rest of his life celibate and it is absolutely ridiculous to expect you to go without sex.


Yes, a take-charge kind of guy would have done that a long, long time ago. But sadly, we're here to discuss the OP, not take-charge men who refuse to be disrespected.... 😕


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