# Two all too common questions



## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

I see these questions all too often. The problem with these questions is that they are completely wrong headed. The questions make assumptions that are just wrong. Getting rid of the assumptions of a BS is usually the hardest part of helping a new poster on the thread. If you've been recently btrayed you need to understand whats wrong with these questions so we can help you better. I wanted to answer them simply and universally...

TAM regulars feel free to comment on or expand this list. 

1. Can it be fixed?
ANS: No. It can't be fixed. The M as it was is done. You must make a new M if you are to stay together. You cannot have the old one back it was ended by one or both breaking the marital contract. If you continue on together it must be a new M, or no M at all.

2. How do I win them back?
ANS: You don't. They should be trying to win you back. They hurt, betrayed, and left you. Even if they are still with you, they left you emotionally for another. They must now do the hard work to win back what they threw away. If that doesn't happen your M will end.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Those are questions from hope, despair and fog. Natural first reaction from one who was actually in love with the cheating spouse. 

It's the questions afterwards that are better, more rational. But it takes a while.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

doubletrouble said:


> Those are questions from hope, despair and fog. Natural first reaction from one who was actually in love with the cheating spouse.
> 
> It's the questions afterwards that are better, more rational. But it takes a while.


True. That's why we need to cut through them. They don't help the BS. This thinking actually hurts them, so the sooner they get past these thoughts the sooner they can gain their focus on the real questions.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

During the emotional turmoil after Dday, it's hard to think clearly. It's difficult to process the fact that the betrayal was a symptom of something. Figuring out what the something is should be the key. 

If it's a symptom of the WS' insecurity or underlying mental illness, then I don't think anything is 'repairable'. The BS needs to move on or they will be hurt over and over again by this person. It may seem cold, but the sooner the BS comes to grips with this the better. You can't fix a person. You can either live with their flaws or not. If that persons flaws include hurting you, then it would be a bad idea to try and cope with that.

If it's a symptom of a broken marriage. The marriage might be able to be repaired. But even this is difficult. Both partners need to be fully committed. And they have to change the dynamic of how they interact. Moving back to the status quo prior to Dday should not be the goal. That would be an indicator of rugsweeping. The WS needs to be completely honest and willing to talk about the affair ad nausea if that's what it takes. With enough talk, assurance and openness the trust starts to rebuild. The BS needs to be open about their pain and express it, and not hide it out of fear or embarrassment. It's okay to feel hurt. If the WS cannot be understanding of this, then they don't really want to rebuild. 

I like the concept of building a new marriage. It's a good way to look at it. Things will never be the same again, and quite honestly, who would want them to be? The way they were opened up the vulnerability that led to the affair. Sure, the WS had to make a bad choice. The risk still exists that either spouse could make a bad choice in the future. But has the WS shown enough remorse and done enough to convince the BS that the risk is worth it?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think there may be a lack of sophistication to Answer #2. The BS will have to recognize his or her contribution to the breakdown of the marriage in order for any real change to begin. A strategic BS will need to understand the WS's emotional process in order to get through it. Many WS's will leave because they feel persecuted because of the BS's rage, depression, etc. This can make the situation for both if R is a potential possibility.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks, Ovid, for the thread. I struggle with this every quiet moment of every day. I want to write to every reconciling betrayed husband to ask them how they do it and why.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I think there may be a lack of sophistication to Answer #2. The BS will have to recognize his or her contribution to the breakdown of the marriage in order for any real change to begin. A strategic BS will need to understand the WS's emotional process in order to get through it. Many WS's will leave because they feel persecuted because of the BS's rage, depression, etc. This can make the situation for both if R is a potential possibility.


I think there is a fine line about understanding the faults and accepting the blame.

My EX told me I was X, Y, and Z. I never mentioned her A, B, and C... But I owned my faults. I improved on them. The things I didn't own I refused to take. The blame-shifting crap... Oh hell no! 

'You didn't give me enough attention!' I was on travel working to provide for you and the kids while you had people over sucking face and whatever came up... That is not mine to own.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I think there may be a lack of sophistication to Answer #2. The BS will have to recognize his or her contribution to the breakdown of the marriage in order for any real change to begin. A strategic BS will need to understand the WS's emotional process in order to get through it. Many WS's will leave because they feel persecuted because of the BS's rage, depression, etc. This can make the situation for both if R is a potential possibility.


I think there may in some cases be reflexive and irresistable temptation for the WS to construct a rationale and to pour every bit of their emotional reserve into recreating the story of why. As opposed to t what might give a chance to reconciliation.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks, Ovid, for the thread. I struggle with this every quiet moment of every day. I want to write to every reconciling betrayed husband to ask them how they do it and why.


I do it because I still love her and my particular case won't apply to everyone else's... So my reaction to R is different. But it started with real love and that's still there, too precious to lose. 

However, the pain is as real as the love, and that's the hardest part to get through for anyone. A real R HAS to be a two way street, and the WS has to do a lot of the driving. As time goes on, and parts of the pain subside (outside of triggers that bring it all crashing back), the BS can start to do more of the driving in terms of how the relationship is going to be. 

I confess it's difficult not to beat her up over it (verbally/emotionally, not physically) every damn day. But i swallow some of the pain, daily, because I, too, want my life to change. That doesn't mean I let her get away with anything, just that I don't have the energy 24/7 to talk about how screwed over and second choice I feel. 

Some days we actually are bright, the light shines through our hearts and faces and bodies as it SHOULD HAVE ALWAYS DONE. And those are the moments we cherish. 

A silly analogy: It's like golf, when you string a couple good shots together, even if the rest of the 18 holes sorta suck, it makes you want to come back for more, because those sweet shots really made you feel good. 

I want a lifetime of sweet shots with my wife.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

staystrong said:


> I think there may be a lack of sophistication to Answer #2. The BS will have to recognize his or her contribution to the breakdown of the marriage in order for any real change to begin. A strategic BS will need to understand the WS's emotional process in order to get through it. Many WS's will leave because they feel persecuted because of the BS's rage, depression, etc. This can make the situation for both if R is a potential possibility.


In some cases the WS has rewritten the history of the M where in reality the BS is not to blame at all for the A or the breakdown of the M. There are many cases where the WS will state that there was nothing wrong with the M but they wanted something more, or there may be poor boundary issues, or other causes that have nothing to do with the BS. 

In any case I do believe it causes the BS to examine a lot and often times they have a tendancy to blame themselves.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> In some cases the WS has rewritten the history of the M where in reality the BS is not to blame at all for the A or the breakdown of the M. There are many cases where the WS will state that there was nothing wrong with the M but they wanted something more, or there may be poor boundary issues, or other causes that have nothing to do with the BS.
> 
> In any case I do believe it causes the BS to examine a lot and often times they have a tendancy to blame themselves.


I find I blame myself quite often.. looking at the 'if I did x or y' stuff... Shouldn't have bought her a dozen roses for anniversaries, should have gone with two dozen.. that would have done it... 

The sad thing is that any 'blame' you use, like "I should have done x or y", when you think about it.. the AP wasn't doing these things either.. Did he 'spend more time with her' like she wanted? Yea, a few hours in a motel.. real quality time there. Forget being able to lay in bed with someone for an entire night.. that's not quality, or being there when your baby is born.. no quality there. A quicky after work in your boyfriends apartment, that's quality time. So if she said "you never wanted to go anywhere with me", meaning Walmart to watch her shop for clothes.. did he do that? If she asked "want to go to a motel and turn me into a pretzel" I would have said "sure" and got the car keys.

She finally admitted that our marriage wasn't really that bad, that she was just in a bad place with so much happening at that time (new job, i started working from home, aunt/friend moved out of state, daughter messing w drugs etc..) and she confided in a male 'friend' at work and eventually crossed boundaries... pushed me away to justify it all. Cruel stuff...


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

russell28 said:


> She finally admitted that our marriage wasn't really that bad, that she was just in a bad place with so much happening at that time (new job, i started working from home, aunt/friend moved out of state, daughter messing w drugs etc..) and she confided in a male 'friend' at work and eventually crossed boundaries... pushed me away to justify it all. Cruel stuff...


After the initial shock wore off (about 9 months, lol). The main question I wrestle with has to do with Russell's statement above.

Yes, there were some issues in the M. But things were not awful. And polishing those areas and making it better isn't the cure against infidelity. It can still happen again. 

So, to me, the question the BS should be asking is:

- Is reconciling worth the risk?

There is a lot that goes into that question that we just can't process on or near Dday. During Dday the trauma pushes us to want to act, so we look for things under our control. Which after you cut all the crap comes down to, stay or split (There are variations on staying and variations on splitting, but in a general vein, those are the 2 options). 

Staying means working toward R, and taking the risk of being hurt again.

Splitting means change and uncertainty. I think this choice is easier when the WS proves out to be a serial cheater and is resistant to stopping affairs and such. It would be easy to find a more stable mate. It's difficult the 1st time you find out about and infidelity. This person you always trusted, and thought of as a 'good' person turns out to not be exactly all that. But if they could cheat, couldn't anyone?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Acoa said:


> After the initial shock wore off (about 9 months, lol). The main question I wrestle with has to do with Russell's statement above.
> 
> Yes, there were some issues in the M. But things were not awful. And polishing those areas and making it better isn't the cure against infidelity. It can still happen again.
> 
> ...


You have to bank on them not wanting to risk feeling this crappy again.. that the pain they've caused themselves and everyone around them was enough to understand the boundaries and why they need to be maintained. They knew about boundaries, it's not as if this is all new information... "really? I shouldn't talk bad about my husband to this guy?" C'mon.. bottom line is that they didn't believe they'd get caught, thought it was worth the risk, and now hopefully have an idea of what the risk/reward actually is. That's all I have to cling to at this point. I often wonder about the 'anyone' thing.. I've had chances to cheat, but never with a heavy emotional investment... but then I think that's because I know better than to let myself get too close to people I have any chemistry with.. it's not that I haven't had opportunities. You also have to fix some things like communication wasn't perfect, and it broke down totally once third party was injected into the relationship... So there's always something you can improve on too... 

I've been ranting away today.. having a crappy kind of day, but actually dealing... learning to manage my anger, fears etc... work in progress.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Ovid said:


> I see these questions all too often. The problem with these questions is that they are completely wrong headed. The questions make assumptions that are just wrong. Getting rid of the assumptions of a BS is usually the hardest part of helping a new poster on the thread. If you've been recently btrayed you need to understand whats wrong with these questions so we can help you better. I wanted to answer them simply and universally...
> 
> TAM regulars feel free to comment on or expand this list.
> 
> ...


Here is a question I have been thinking about with the thought of starting a "new" marriage, do you abandon your wedding anniversary date and think about getting remarried and claiming the new date. I think in some ways it is making a statement about the new direction of your marriage, but what do you do with all the history that is there, it can't go away and then you have to explain to those who may not know what the hell you are doing.
I'm not saying it will help or hurt anything right now, really not sure if it would even be worth it throwing it up against the wall to see if it sticks.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Ovid said:


> 1. Can it be fixed?
> ANS: No. It can't be fixed. The M as it was is done. You must make a new M if you are to stay together. You cannot have the old one back it was ended by one or both breaking the marital contract. If you continue on together it must be a new M, or no M at all.


How could anyone consider remarrying someone who cheated on them? I mean.. I get why they'd end the old marriage, and I also get why some betrayed spouses will take back a cheater. But to marry them again? Makes no sense. The person has already shown that they are deceptive and cannot be trusted. They may act differently, they may not cheat out of fear of repurcussions but you can't ever trust them! Why recommit to them financially, you've got everything to lose and virtually nothing to gain.

It would be like cashing out your life savings and putting the cash close to an open firepit on a windy day, and saying "I hope it doesn't catch fire".


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

lenzi said:


> How could anyone consider remarrying someone who cheated on them? I mean.. I get why they'd end the old marriage, and I also get why some betrayed spouses will take back a cheater. But to marry them again? Makes no sense. The person has already shown that they are deceptive and cannot be trusted. They may act differently, they may not cheat out of fear of repurcussions but you can't ever trust them! Why recommit to them financially, you've got everything to lose and virtually nothing to gain.
> 
> It would be like cashing out your life savings and putting the cash close to an open firepit on a windy day, and saying "I hope it doesn't catch fire".


I think what this refers to is the realization that you have to let go of what you believed in before and was proved to be false. It's a picture that was shattered. You cannot have the marriage you thought you had or to the person you thought was your spouse. That is the reality. So it is time to work out whether on balance there is reason to forge something with this person you are married to but do not recognize as the person you married.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Ovid said:


> TAM regulars feel free to comment.


Random thoughts...

Everything said in this post, it's absolutely true. 

It would be nice if it hit home. 

From what I’ve seen, most "crisis mode" spouses (betrayed), have a huge denial/pain defense wall up. Even if they conceptually grasp that the relationship they remember is over and they have to let go, they aren't prepared or even capable of doing it. 

Applying 'best practice' to saving your marriage requires a large degree letting go, most betrayed spouses are doing the exactly opposite. They are holding on for dear life... 

It's sad and ironic that your instincts as a recently betrayed, will usually betray you further...


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

lenzi said:


> How could anyone consider remarrying someone who cheated on them? I mean.. I get why they'd end the old marriage, and I also get why some betrayed spouses will take back a cheater. But to marry them again? Makes no sense. The person has already shown that they are deceptive and cannot be trusted. They may act differently, they may not cheat out of fear of repurcussions but you can't ever trust them! Why recommit to them financially, you've got everything to lose and virtually nothing to gain.
> 
> It would be like cashing out your life savings and putting the cash close to an open firepit on a windy day, and saying "I hope it doesn't catch fire".


When you take the person back you can't go back to the old marriage. The way things were is what's done away with. You are starting from scratch, or you will go right back to the old problems and the old marriage that resulted in the cheating taking place. It has to be a new start or it will become an old failure.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

love=pain said:


> Here is a question I have been thinking about with the thought of starting a "new" marriage, do you abandon your wedding anniversary date and think about getting remarried and claiming the new date. I think in some ways it is making a statement about the new direction of your marriage, but what do you do with all the history that is there, it can't go away and then you have to explain to those who may not know what the hell you are doing.
> I'm not saying it will help or hurt anything right now, really not sure if it would even be worth it throwing it up against the wall to see if it sticks.


Some people actually do take a new date, but the point here is that the marriage you had is done. You can't go back to it. You start over from the beginning or you build on what led to the infidelity to begin with.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> I think what this refers to is the realization that you have to let go of what you believed in before and was proved to be false. It's a picture that was shattered. You cannot have the marriage you thought you had or to the person you thought was your spouse. That is the reality. So it is time to work out whether on balance there is reason to forge something with this person you are married to but do not recognize as the person you married.


I get all that about leaving the old marriage.

I question a new marriage with this person. Well I question a marriage with anyone but especially to one with a proven track record of deception and dishonesty.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Random thoughts...
> 
> Everything said in this post, it's absolutely true.
> 
> ...


Just trying to put some dents in the armor to help BS get to the conclusions they eventually have to reach to get where they need to be.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

lenzi said:


> I get all that about leaving the old marriage.
> 
> I question a new marriage with this person. Well I question a marriage with anyone but especially to one with a proven track record of deception and dishonesty.


If you take them back it's a new one. If you don't try to R then there is no new marriage. The point is you can't go back. You start over or you don't start at all.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Random thoughts...
> 
> Everything said in this post, it's absolutely true.
> 
> ...


Very well said.

I am now in my second marriage, and when conflict does arise I begin to see my scars show.

Trust and jelousy are difficult to balance. The perception that you can lose again is a battle for the betrayed. Jelousy can protect your heart, but it can destroy the relationship.

My hats off to those that can do this with the WS. It is not super easy doing it with a clean slate (new spouse). Life has risks, and we need to choose the risks we feel we can live with.

For the newly betrayed, I really like Ovid's original post. 

It is so difficult plotting your course when you struggle to keep breathing. It is sickening to read new posts from people just finding out how bad things have become. 

The good part for us is knowing that helping them allows us to heal too.

Thanks for sharing these things.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

The only way you can build a new marriage is that you and your WS believe you are willing to throw them out the door if A this does not stop B if they do not feel remorse and C if they do not work hard to help build the new marriage.

If the WS does not believe that you are willing to throw them out the door nothing will work and you will go on being a BS walked on beta doormat.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

I've been betrayed so many times it starts to feel normal. 

OK not normal, but it's familiar. Six LTRs and six betrayals. Three of them went for married men, one for a woman. Yeah, wtf is wrong with ME?? Like Sophie Tucker said, I can get 'em, but hanging on to them's the hard part. 

Last wife is onboard now. Last one, no matter what happens. I'll be 55 next week and I'm done looking around. 

We set a new date, had the jeweler change our rings, said new vows. And that's all before I found out about the PA part of her EA. None of our anniversaries mean anything to me any more. Not even the first kiss, first sex, first date, first time with vows. They've all lost their importance. 

But we're still on R, and although it's not easy, she's the one I want to be with. There are far more evil women out there than she. I've lived with a few of them already.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Ovid said:


> If you take them back it's a new one. If you don't try to R then there is no new marriage. The point is you can't go back. You start over or you don't start at all.


You can start over and not get married again.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

lenzi said:


> I get all that about leaving the old marriage.
> 
> I question a new marriage with this person. Well I question a marriage with anyone but especially to one with a proven track record of deception and dishonesty.


I apologize, Lenzi. I may have misread your post a bit.

There can be lots of reasons to give the work-out a try. We have 4 young girls who I am sure will be better off and happier if we can somehow get through this sh*tty patch as a family. Yes, that involves some sacrifice. It's a sh*t sandwich. And I go back and forth on this several times every day. And right now I am in the phase of "why the f*ck do I put up with this constant bullsh*t?" And the answer for tonight anyway is the four little girls I now have to get brushed and to bed.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

lenzi said:


> The person has already shown that they are deceptive and cannot be trusted. They may act differently, they may not cheat out of fear of repurcussions but you can't ever trust them!


This piece is a complete generalization.
The rest I understand. I wouldn't marry again anyone, not my wife (in case I'd get the divorce).


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

lenzi said:


> You can start over and not get married again.


That is an option.

Depends on the couple though.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

lenzi said:


> You can start over and not get married again.


I "liked" but might have misunderstood. I'm not a big fan of starting over with the same person who betrayed you but without the "on paper" marriage. Not so interested in leasing something I owned at one time. lol.

I like the idea of starting over (your life) and not getting married again (to anyone).

hahahaa.


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## Betrayedred (Jun 16, 2013)

Yep. If my R doesn't work out, I'm planning on being single for a very, very, very, very, long time. Like forever, lol! Maybe that's just hurt and betrayal talking, but this is my second marriage, and I'm not so sure I'd want to go for the third time!!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And here is/are the question/s that most of us betrayeds ask, but really, really shouldn't (even if we only ask it of ourselves)

"Was your lover better in bed than me? Was he/she more attractive? What did I do wrong that made you cheat on me?"


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