# Repeated divorce threats (and OCD?)



## Jasminka (May 4, 2017)

Hi,

I've been a silent lurker for years and finally gathered the courage to post. 

I'll start with the general facts: myself, 29, married to husband, 34, with 2 kids (2Y and 5y). We've been together for 11 years, married 6. 
H is kind, loving, supportive, good looking, funny, smart, doesn't drink , great father, our families get along well and overall the ideal husband. When things are good they are great, but ones in a couple of months or so there is a repeated scenario that I don't think I can take anymore. 

Background info: my MIL is OCD for cleaning and tidying and H has inherited it (which he denies). She ran a perfect household while working like crazy but it left her with no time for her husband and they were on the verge of divorce several times. I come from a very messy, untidy home. I hated it and wanted to be organized, H has seen how crazy it was for his mother to manage everything and didn't want it to repeat at our home. It took us a year of frequent arguments to adjust to each other but apparently it's not enough.

So, we have a hired help for cleaning once a week and cooking twice a week. Before we got the help we did cleaning and cooking ourselves and it was a nightmare because I couldn't come close to his standards. Now, every cleaning lady gets complains from him about how messy she is. Each and every one of the cleaning ladies we've ever had said our home is the cleanest and most organized they've ever seen. At the end of every day I tidy the house, every item has to be back to its place or otherwise H will get nervous... Both of us work crazy jobs that sometimes revolve around different time zones, I went back to university when my older son was 1year old, and also worked full time, we both earn well and can afford the help. I wasn't lazy or slacking, I genuinly always had a lack of time so tidying was my least priority. Yet, whenever H thinks I neglect the home, he holds anger and then explodes which usually happens once in 2 months or so.

>>>>
So the problems:
1. Once in 2 months or so I'd get the silent treatment, then an explosion and a divorce threat. I've had at least 15 divorce threats, including when pregnant. He says I'm not a real woman, that a real woman cares about her house etc... I understand where he is coming from and that I don't answer his need for domestic support. It took me ages to learn how to maintain household up to his standards, even with all the help. Now I spend at least an hour at night returning everything back to its place only for things to be messed up again in the morning when the kids wake up. I thought the problem is only mine, until 2 years ago my son was born and 2 days later my mom dies. After 10 days or so I got the silent treatment and an explosion that I'm not throwing the diapers right away. Then it made me think this is really and OCD.

Whenever we have arguments, the pattern is usually getting the silent treatment from him, sometimes a divorce threat and then I plead or beg for another chance. In 99% of the cases "this is always my fault". 

2. H's job includes sales and lecturing in front of people, and he was also a bootcamp commander in the army. Basically he can talk to dozens or hundreds of people in such a convincing way that they forget all their resistances and take his opinion within a few minutes. This is why it's very difficult for me to communicate with him, because no matter what I say he would turn it around and make me look or feel dumb. 

Yesterday I told him I was hurt about the way he talked to me about something, he denied saying anything bad and things escalated to a silent treatment and divorce threat again (previous one was 2 weeks ago). Today I have a test for a certification that took me ages to prepare and I ended up not sleeping all night which will cost me a lot of money, time and efforts if I fail. He knew it very well. I asked him can we please postpone the arguments for tomorrow and sleep normally together and he said no and went to sleep at the guest room. 

Up until now I was frightened of him leaving me but yesterday for the first time ever I think I reached my breaking point and in a response for his threat said "yes, I think we are headed there" and didn't go after him when he went to sleep at the other room. I know I should've put my foot down and stop this a long time ago, but I thought that it happens rarely enough and I can tolerate it.
So, what do I do now? Do I start the 180? He is not willing to talk ( I tried yesterday, he said he is not in the mood to talk), and probably would wait for me to come convince him to give me another chance again. I'm sick of this.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Jasminka said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've been a silent lurker for years and finally gathered the courage to post.
> 
> ...


You're husband is a bully,a narcissist and a coward.He has to be in control and wants to intimidate you.Next time he starts shouting at you scream back at him "Stand down soldier" He is not in the army now.Why do you have to clean up at night,if he is so bothered let him do it.I am not so sure about OCD because if it was that he would be cleaning himself.I would ask him to discuss this once,if he isn't prepared to do it tell him you are seeing a lawyer.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

So you both work PLUS you've gone back to school on top of it and have 2 kids you're raising - yet it's STILL only *your* responsibility to do all the endless picking up and tidying up the place in order to feed *HIS* compulsion?

And if YOU don't live up to the asswipe's 'standards,' you get told how worthless you are as a woman and he talks about divorce?

Why in hell are you constantly seeking this guy's approval? He screams and hollers about how you're not doing good enough so you run around and try HARDER just to get this jerkoff to pat you on the head. Considering what a Class A ass-clown he is, I'd give him that divorce he keeps talking about.

*Happily.*


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

This guy is sick. You've been a saint putting up with him for this long. So you both work, but _you're_ the one expected to maintain the household? And if you mess up, he punishes you like a child? It's up to you--and I know it's tough when you've got children together--but I would call his bluff and let him have the divorce he wants. My guess is that he uses this threat to keep power over you, and is completely unprepared for the reality of divorce. Sick in itself. I honestly don't see people like this ever "cured". But I've been told I'm a glass-half-empty person.

It's either time for a real divorce, or a shift in the power dynamic.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Jasminka said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've been a silent lurker for years and finally gathered the courage to post.
> 
> ...


Your H is emotionally abusing you. Read all you can on emotional abuse and the work of emotional bullies.
It is time you started laying down boundaries for yourself. You are also working so the household should be a shared effort, please make that clear to him. if he wants particular standards then he has to help maintain them.
Do you have family near or in the same country. It might be an idea to take yourself off and let him deal with the kids and his mother. Sometimes, a good dose of the reality of how difficult it is to manage kids and a clean/tidy home will help.
Tell him when things are calmer, that you are fed up of his disrespect and lack of self control over his tongue. Suggest he go talk to a counselor to deal with his anger and self control.

Tell him that the next time he threatens divorce, you yourself will go to the lawyer and draw up papers and give him what he wants. Follow through on this and shock the life out of him, bullies only know how to bark and shy away from being held to account. You need to start standing up for yourself.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Give him what he wants. You'll be better off for it. Walking on eggshells is no way to live, and your children are suffering from his behavior as much as you are, make no mistake.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Jasminka said:


> Hi,
> I've had at least 15 divorce threats, including when pregnant.


I'm sorry you are enduring this. I have some understanding of what you are facing with a boot camp guy for a spouse. My father,a career marine, for years though it was appropriate to bring military discipline into the house, including the premises needing to be ready for white glove inspection at any time. This was occasionally abusive to my mom. Mind you, this was not OCD, but a misplaced sense of what is appropriate in what environment. No excuse beyond not being able to tell the difference between how to behave with family and how to behave with unruly young marines. 

Eventually, my dad got it and the family thrived. I'm not so sure yours will have the same epiphany. 

I'm reminded of the old cliche "Be careful what you ask for... you just might get it." Sounds like he may need to get exactly what he's asking for.


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## Edward333 (Feb 13, 2017)

Your husband sounds almost EXACTLY like my STBXW.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

Oh my goodness... Please go talk with a therapist or even a lawyer. This is not right for you or your kids. He is a bully for yelling and making sure you do everything. He is not in the army, he's married with kids--no reason for that! I'm sure OCD does play into this but certainly not a reason for his behavior. If you stay, it will impact your well-being and not in a good way.

I believe my MIL has a form of OCD and spouse just was diagnosed with anxiety which explains a lot. He also denies this!! He yells and gets angry when he isn't in control. It also makes him very nervous when 'things' aren't right. He does complain about people we have hired in the past. But what I'm saying it won't get better at all, it will actually get worse. I know this from being married 20 years.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

I think you've set the wrong precedent in your relationship. 

From the post, it seems like you have:
1) tolerated verbal and emotional abuse; 
2) responded favorably to your husband's threats of divorce; 
3) acted desperate to win approval from an abuser. 

These are mistakes on your part. 

His threats of divorce show his skewed priorities. To him, an ultra clean house is more important than you. You tolerating that says you approve of his warped value system. The situation is unacceptable so stop signaling that it is acceptable. He doesn't deserve "a 180" from you, so please, don't even consider this. It's a terrible idea, and sets you up for even more abuse.

Tell your husband that if he wants the house tidied to some ridiculous level of perfection, it's his problem. Tell him you'll clean/organize as you see fit, no more. Leave it at that, and reject attempts at him persuading you to do otherwise. Learn how to argue with your husband and stand your ground. Loving couples must be able to "agree to disagree" on things, and for you, let this is one of them.

You two should get marriage counseling and work on improving communication skills and conflict resolution. Assuming your husband is not a substance abuser or physical abuser, divorce should be your last option with young children who ideally need a mother and a father. Good luck!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I agree with literally every single comment thus far. This man is an abusive jerk. None of his behavior is loving. You're his wife, not his maid or his whipping boy, and you are supposed to be equal partners in this together, but he's not treating you as such. Far from it. Seek out a therapist and a laywer, and develop an escape plan. And the next time he threatens divorce, give it to him. Or don't even wait until then, because I don't want to see you endure another two months of this crap.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Jasminka said:


> Hi,
> 1. Once in 2 months or so I'd get the silent treatment, then an explosion and a divorce threat. I've had at least 15 divorce threats, including when pregnant. He says I'm not a real woman, that a real woman cares about her house etc... I understand where he is coming from and that I don't answer his need for domestic support. It took me ages to learn how to maintain household up to his standards, even with all the help. Now I spend at least an hour at night returning everything back to its place only for things to be messed up again in the morning when the kids wake up. I thought the problem is only mine, until 2 years ago my son was born and 2 days later my mom dies. After 10 days or so I got the silent treatment and an explosion that I'm not throwing the diapers right away. Then it made me think this is really and OCD.
> 
> Whenever we have arguments, the pattern is usually getting the silent treatment from him, sometimes a divorce threat and then I plead or beg for another chance. In 99% of the cases "this is always my fault".
> ...


For your H:
1. He needs to seek therapy for his compulsion.
2. He needs to seek therapy for his emotionally abusive outbursts.
3. He needs to learn to own up to his behavior.

For you:
1. You need to stop responding to threats by capitulation, because it rewards the behavior.
2. You need to stand up to his treatment of you, even if he tries to twist your words against you, and call him out on that.
3. Yes, you should start the 180. 
4. You need to go and get divorce papers, put them down in front of him, and tell him that you're giving him what he wants.

A note on threats: Never threaten something you can't / won't follow through with. If you throw down the Divorce gauntlet, you must be prepared to go through with it. If you decide to try to reconcile after this, it should be a one and done scenario: if he ever threatens divorce again you stop and file for divorce. I would consider not even trying to reconcile, but that is up to you.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

As they say, it is probably best to just let him go.

But you could, along the way or as an attempt to help you in dealing with him, or whatever, tell him you are going to record your conversations from now on, and do that. If he really thinks he treats you well when he talks with you he should have no problem with that.

My wife is a liar. I told her I was going to record our conversations. She was a bit troubled, but said okay. It proved she lies, a lot. She never means to hurt me, or anything evil or underhanded. She is just afraid of the truth. If I ask her a question she is suddenly the frightened child in the corner, desperately trying to think of the right thing to say to avoid another beating. She was told she had to always tell the truth, but if she ever told the truth, she was badly punished. She learned to lie. Every question was a trap. So any time I ask a question, in passing, by accident, she gets a deer in the headlights look and tries to think of the right answer.

So I recorded her, and played it back. She lies.

If your husband hears how he really treats you, maybe it will make a difference? Maybe, but probably not... men are evil.


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## Jasminka (May 4, 2017)

Thank you everyone for your replies, I can't even express how you've opened my eyes! Emotional abuse was absolutely the last thing I was expecting to hear from you. All those years I was thinking I'm losing my mind, jumping through hoops to "try to be a real woman"... While posting this message my goal was to objectively understand if he has an OCD or if I really wasn't doing my fair share in the house or not being a good wife. I haven't even thought about emotional abuse because I've always associated it with husbands who have jealousy rages or who shout a lot (and he just shouts a little lol). I read an article about 30 signs of emotional abuse and 12 of them match to a t! Being born in the Soviet Union and raised in a western country known for its dominant men, the general opinion in the place I come from is that if a man doesn't drink, doesn't cheat and and doesn't hit you, then he is the ideal spouse and you should put up with anything else. 

I started the 180 plan shortly before writing this post and I really meant it this time, thinking about an exit plan, talking cheerfully to my girlfriend over the phone while preparing to go for the test and I PASSED IT even with the complete lack of sleep! Then I got an apology email from my husband that basically says he apologizes for being an a*s in the past month (there were a lot of similar incidents in the last month because we moved to a new country 2 months ago). 

I then wrote him a very detailed 6 pages long letter with ALL the things I wanted to say for years and literally copied some sentences from your answers. After each and every fight I was thinking that this is the last time I'm going to tolerate this, and that next time I'll tell him that I can't cope with it anymore. It lasted for years and I finally gathered the courage thanks to you guys!

Here is a very very very brief summary of what I wrote:
1. The problem is much longer than a month as you think, you've been abusing me from the moment we've moved in together. If I ever hear another divorce threat or get the silent treatment again, I'll take it as an official divorce declaration from you , will proceed accordingly and will not give you another chance. I've reached my breaking point and I'll never tolerate this again.
2. Your anger is your problem, and you should treat it. I'm not to blame for any of your outbursts, I'm not responsible for your fights with your mother or with your business partners. You need to learn to control your temper and to stop being a bully. 
3. For years I've heard that I'm a damaged woman because taking care of the household doesn't come naturally to me and thanked you each time you "gave me another chance". That you need a real woman beside you and that I don't answer your needs. I'm a faulty woman?
I take a very good care of myself to look the best I can, worked my a*s of to get back to my pre-pregnancies weight, we have sex twice a week on average even considering the crazy jobs, kids, school and my lack of sleep , I earn just as much as you, and you are not doing me a favor by getting hired help, I EARNED IT MYSELF! I let you sleep late on weekends while taking the kids out, I support you when you travel for work or with friends to sports events ... So now I officially declare that my last priority in life is how the house looks. If this is not a real woman to you, then you are welcome to find another real woman. 
4. I'm done living with a tyrant and our home is not a boot-camp. I love you but I realized I'd rather live without you than continue being your punching pillow. If you don't acknowledge this and treat this, I'm gone. 

I just gave him the letter. I'll keep you posted.


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## Jasminka (May 4, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> You're husband is a bully,a narcissist and a coward.He has to be in control and wants to intimidate you.Next time he starts shouting at you scream back at him "Stand down soldier" He is not in the army now.Why do you have to clean up at night,if he is so bothered let him do it.I am not so sure about OCD because if it was that he would be cleaning himself.I would ask him to discuss this once,if he isn't prepared to do it tell him you are seeing a lawyer.


I see what you mean about being a bully. I always had the feeling he is acting like an army commander but I always thought it's my fault. I do the cleaning when he does other stuff, like putting our older son to sleep or checking important work stuff (related to time zone differences) but usually he's done first and has at least half an hour to himself while I waste my time on cleaning up even though in the morning everything will be messed up again when the kids wake up.


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## Jasminka (May 4, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> So you both work PLUS you've gone back to school on top of it and have 2 kids you're raising - yet it's STILL only *your* responsibility to do all the endless picking up and tidying up the place in order to feed *HIS* compulsion?
> 
> And if YOU don't live up to the asswipe's 'standards,' you get told how worthless you are as a woman and he talks about divorce?
> 
> ...


I'm not in school anymore, finished 2.5 years ago, but throughout school (for 2 years that started when my son was 6 months old), while working full time online between classes, at night and on my days off from school, and earning an excellent salary , and raising my son, I was constantly being blamed for my lack of care of the house. I didn't gain more time since finishing school though. It was replaced by doing a gazillion of tests and errands for our immigration, taking my mother to chemotherapy, pregnancy, then my second son was born in C-section and my mother passed away after 2 days (no discounts though, got angry outbursts for not picking up diapers after 10 days!). So, not in school but hardly manage to scrape 5 minutes a day for myself.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@Jasminka GOOD FOR YOU!!! I hope he takes it to heart and makes some serious changes. If not, I hope you will stick to your word and get out.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Give your passive aggressive H what he throws down on the table. Divorce.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

*OCPD vs. OCD Symptoms*



Jasminka said:


> My MIL is OCD for cleaning and tidying and H has inherited it.


Jasminka, perhaps your H does exhibit OCD. That is not what you're describing here, however. Rather, you're describing classic warning signs for OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder). Although OCD and OCPD share some symptoms, the two disorders are largely unrelated. Whereas OCD is an anxiety disorder, OCPD is a personality disorder. Importantly, I'm not suggesting that your H has full-blown OCPD but, instead, that he may be exhibiting strong symptoms of it. Although these symptoms should be easy to spot whenever they occur strongly, only a professional can determine whether they are so strong and persistent as to constitute full-blown OCPD.



> In 99% of the cases "this is always my fault"..... I told him I was hurt about the way he talked to me about something, he denied saying anything bad.


You are blamed for all mistakes because your H lacks the self awareness to know he has a problem. This is why OCPD and other PDs are said to be "egosyntonic," which means they are so consistent with the desires and needs of the man's ego that he is unaware that there is anything wrong or dysfunctional about them. He is convinced that his excessive standards and work ethic are not only reasonable but also the only right way to do things. In contrast, a man exhibiting OCD usually is aware that his obsessive behavior is unreasonable but he does it anyway to reduce the painful anxiety. 



> He is not willing to talk ( I tried yesterday, he said he is not in the mood to talk), and probably would wait for me to come convince him to give me another chance again.


If he exhibits strong OCPD traits, he feels no urgency to address the problem because he is not in distress. On the contrary, the numerous rules and rigid schedules he advocates are usually comforting and they feel right to him. If his issue were OCD, however, he would find the obsessions and compulsions to be stressful and very unpleasant. For example, a man obsessing over the possibility of having left the front door unlocked will experience strong anxiety and a knotted stomach. It doesn't feel right and is not comforting at all.



> I got an apology email from my husband that basically says he apologizes for being an a*s in the past month


With OCD, such apologies tend to be common and sincere. The person oftentimes will feel guilty about asking others to conform to his rituals because he realizes the rituals are irrational and are only needed to reduce his anxiety. In contrast, a man exhibiting strong OCPD symptoms only rarely apologizes. He rarely feels guilty because he is convinced that others should conform to his superior way of doing things. He believes they will be better off when following his directions.



> He can talk to dozens or hundreds of people in such a convincing way that they forget all their resistances and take his opinion within a few minutes.


Most people having strong OCPD traits are high functioning and thus tend to do well in a business environment with business associates and clients. They may create a very detailed schedule, for example, that improves their efficiency at work. Anxiety therefore plays only a minor, if any, part of the picture. In contrast, the OCD usually is much less successful in a work environment because his compulsive rituals -- which are done to reduce his anxiety -- often interfere with his ability to interact with other workers and clients.



> It took me ages to learn how to maintain household up to his standards, even with all the help.


People exhibiting OCD generally do much, if not all, of the obsessive behavior themselves. They don't order others to do it for them. Generally, this obsessive behavior is done to reduce anxiety and it takes more than an hour a day. In contrast, OCPD is better thought of as part of one's personality, not an activity unto itself. The need for perfectionism and control -- which you describe here -- is essentially a personality trait, not an activity that eats up time. Indeed, perfectionism is the key defining trait for OCPD, not for OCD. For more information on OCPD behaviors, you may want to take a look at the Mayo Clinic's list of 8 OCPD symptoms.



> Once in 2 months or so I'd get the silent treatment, then an explosion and a divorce threat. I've had at least 15 divorce threats, including when pregnant. He says I'm not a real woman...


If your H really does exhibit strong traits of OCPD, there is a good chance he also suffers from strong traits of another PD as well. I mention this because anger issues -- wherein the aggression is shown either passively or actively -- is a warning sign for BPD. Although you are describing only a few BPD symptoms, you nonetheless may benefit by taking a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. Take care, Jasminka.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

In this situation, I would like to quote my dear departed mother, who, in addition to running the house, rose to an executive position with a national department store. "If you want your wife to be beautiful, roll up your sleeves and pitch in with the housework". My dad did the shopping, and made the beds. (Even when he was on a walker) We split the cleaning duties when we were first married, however, I reserved the right to do all of the cooking. Truth be told, when I come home from a day at the office, banging my pots and pans around is therapeutic, and it leads to our cocktail hour, when we unwind with one another after the day. Yelling at one's spouse over minor domestic issues is so very counter-productive. That and reference to house work as "women's work" burns me. I have always been surrounded by strong women. My mother was one, obviously, as is my wife, my daughter, people put their lives in her hands. OP, do not stand for those comments. His mother was a dedcated housefrau. You are not her. Let him live with it in silence.


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## Jasminka (May 4, 2017)

*Re: OCPD vs. OCD Symptoms*



Uptown said:


> Jasminka, perhaps your H does exhibit OCD. That is not what you're describing here, however. Rather, you're describing classic warning signs for OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder). Although OCD and OCPD share some symptoms, the two disorders are largely unrelated. Whereas OCD is an anxiety disorder, OCPD is a personality disorder. Importantly, I'm not suggesting that your H has full-blown OCPD but, instead, that he may be exhibiting strong symptoms of it. Although these symptoms should be easy to spot whenever they occur strongly, only a professional can determine whether they are so strong and persistent as to constitute full-blown OCPD.
> 
> You are blamed for all mistakes because your H lacks the self awareness to know he has a problem. This is why OCPD and other PDs are said to be "egosyntonic," which means they are so consistent with the desires and needs of the man's ego that he is unaware that there is anything wrong or dysfunctional about them. He is convinced that his excessive standards and work ethic are not only reasonable but also the only right way to do things. In contrast, a man exhibiting OCD usually is aware that his obsessive behavior is unreasonable but he does it anyway to reduce the painful anxiety.
> 
> ...


Uptown, wow. Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder it is. Everything you wrote is a very accurate description of his personality, I previously researched OCD and he didn't match the symptoms so I was confused because it looked the closest to what I thought it would be, but the symptoms are very different.

Here for OCPD he clearly shows a third of the symptoms. I don't think it is a full- blown OCPD but even these symptoms are enough to drive me insane. Every sentence you wrote is an accurate description of his character. This one is striking:
"he feels no urgency to address the problem because he is not in distress. On the contrary, the numerous rules and rigid schedules he advocates are usually comforting and they feel right to him"

And just like you guessed, he is viewed as a perfectionist in his business too...

Is there any chance it will go without treatment? If he promises to change and I won't accept this behavior anymore? I have a long update I'll post in a few hours.


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## Jasminka (May 4, 2017)

Taxman said:


> In this situation, I would like to quote my dear departed mother, who, in addition to running the house, rose to an executive position with a national department store. "If you want your wife to be beautiful, roll up your sleeves and pitch in with the housework". My dad did the shopping, and made the beds. (Even when he was on a walker) We split the cleaning duties when we were first married, however, I reserved the right to do all of the cooking. Truth be told, when I come home from a day at the office, banging my pots and pans around is therapeutic, and it leads to our cocktail hour, when we unwind with one another after the day. Yelling at one's spouse over minor domestic issues is so very counter-productive. That and reference to house work as "women's work" burns me. I have always been surrounded by strong women. My mother was one, obviously, as is my wife, my daughter, people put their lives in her hands. OP, do not stand for those comments. His mother was a dedcated housefrau. You are not her. Let him live with it in silence.


Taxman, he does his fair share of the household tasks. Usually he is responsible for the shopping and errands (and before the cleaning lady, he did half of the cleaning) and he often cooks on weekends. So it's not man vs woman work, it's more do any work like they do in the marines. My problem is not about him sitting on the couch and watching TV while I'm slaving away... The problem is that no matter what I do and how organized everything will be, he'll always find something, such as once when I went to a restaurant with my girlfriends whom I haven't seen for 2 months, it was a 30 minute drive and on the way I got 5 angry texts about forgetting a teaspoon on the table after my son ate honey and blaming me for ants in the kitchen. It would have taken him less time to take a napkin and clean it himself that text me. There are countless of similar examples... I knew it would be him and was thinking "what have I done now" the moment I heard a text 2 minutes after I got out of the house. 
He does support me and wants me to meet friends and do things with myself so the problem wasn't me meeting them.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

*Re: OCPD vs. OCD Symptoms*



Jasminka said:


> Is there any chance it will go without treatment? If he promises to change and I won't accept this behavior anymore?


Until the scientific community identifies the underlying cause of OCPD and other PDs, they cannot identify the disorder itself. Moreover, nobody knows whether all ten PDs are caused by the same disorder, or by ten separate disorders, or perhaps by dozens of disorders. This inability to identify the disorder is the reason that OCPD, BPD, and other PDs cannot be cured. Nobody can identify the disorder that is in need of being cured.

Instead of providing a true diagnosis (i.e., identifying the characteristics of the disorder causing the PD symptoms), the APA's "Diagnostic Manual" merely identifies the behavioral symptoms arising from that assumed (unidentified) disorder. The result is that PD therapies do not eliminate the disorder but, rather, teach people how to manage the symptoms. 

This service nonetheless is extremely beneficial to PD sufferers because it helps them reduce their suffering by learning the emotional skills needed to control their own emotions and deal with their fears in a more constructive manner. Of the ten PDs, OCPD typically has a greater success rate in therapy (e.g., in CBT or DBT) than is true for most other PDs.

As to whether the OCPD behaviors will _"go away without treatment," _my understanding is that the answer is "no." The abuse likely will become a little less strong as the person gets past the mid-forties. Yet, if your H already exhibits strong OCPD traits, he may be nearly as impossible to live with when those traits are 80% of what they are now. I don't know because I've never met him and don't know how strong his OCPD symptoms are. Hence, if you find that these traits are making your life very unhappy and stressful, several years of therapy likely will be required to make a real difference in his behavior.


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## Edward333 (Feb 13, 2017)

*Re: OCPD vs. OCD Symptoms*

Wow! I just stumbled upon this thread and saw the topic of OCPD being discussed. I'm about to be officially divorced in 5 days and I'm convinced that my wife has strong signs of OCPD based on her behavior. 

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but if you want an interesting read, check out my thread from a while back...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/367546-time-move.html


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Boot camp mentality?

I put ~40 years in the military.

This is childish outside of Basic Training, and some Elite Schools.

Go to an Army Surplus Store.

Get an oversized pair of Cochran Jump Boots.

Plant one up his ass. Not the one at the top of his legs. The other one on top of his shoulders.

I would take the kids and move out on him. Stay with your folks or family.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

*Re: OCPD vs. OCD Symptoms*



Edward333 said:


> I'm convinced that my wife has strong signs of OCPD based on her behavior.


Edward, perhaps your STBXW does have strong OCPD traits. Yet, as I noted 3 months ago in *my 2/15/17 post*, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., temper tantrums, verbal and physical abuse, controlling actions, lack of impulse control, emotional instability, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline PD) -- not for OCPD. 

Although the symptoms you describe primarily point to BPD traits, this does not mean she cannot also exhibit strong OCPD symptoms. Indeed, most people exhibiting strong symptoms of one PD also exhibit them for at least one other PD as well. A 2008 study found that for female BPDers, 24% of them also exhibit full-blown symptoms for OCPD (in addition to the BPD). If you would like to discuss this further, I would be happy to do so in your thread.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Jasminka said:


> Thank you everyone for your replies, I can't even express how you've opened my eyes! Emotional abuse was absolutely the last thing I was expecting to hear from you. All those years I was thinking I'm losing my mind, jumping through hoops to "try to be a real woman"... While posting this message my goal was to objectively understand if he has an OCD or if I really wasn't doing my fair share in the house or not being a good wife. I haven't even thought about emotional abuse because I've always associated it with husbands who have jealousy rages or who shout a lot (and he just shouts a little lol). I read an article about 30 signs of emotional abuse and 12 of them match to a t! Being born in the Soviet Union and raised in a western country known for its dominant men, the general opinion in the place I come from is that if a man doesn't drink, doesn't cheat and and doesn't hit you, then he is the ideal spouse and you should put up with anything else.
> 
> I started the 180 plan shortly before writing this post and I really meant it this time, thinking about an exit plan, talking cheerfully to my girlfriend over the phone while preparing to go for the test and I PASSED IT even with the complete lack of sleep! Then I got an apology email from my husband that basically says he apologizes for being an a*s in the past month (there were a lot of similar incidents in the last month because we moved to a new country 2 months ago).
> 
> ...


Wow @Jasminka! You go girl! Do not allow yourself to be treated this way for one more minute.

As I was reading your original post, I was thinking to myself "that's not OCD". I have a cousin with OCD and it's just heartbreaking to watch. He is a nervous wreck, his home is extremely sparse because he simply can't cope with too many things, and his home is deep cleaned, with boiling water and bleach TWICE a day, EVERY day. His rituals take him hours and hours every single day...what you're describing of your H just doesn't fit with OCD as you've now realised.

Not sure whether or not anything can help him. I know I'm the exception but I'm not a big fan of therapy - people are who they are, and behaviours that your husband has are ingrained from his childhood. *If* change is possible, it would take years before it rippled through to his behaviours. Are you willing to put up with this until then? Are you willing to expose your children to this? To raise them to believe that unless they are perfect they aren't good enough?


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## Jasminka (May 4, 2017)

Hi guys, I'm back. Sorry for disappearing for so long, it's been an insane period, moving places, work turmoil... Short summery of my previous posts: I was trying to understand if my husband has an OCD, but then with your help realized it's more of a combination of control issue or OCPD. I was advised by all of you to put a stop to the repeated divorce threats and walking on egg shells in my own house. Anyway, I gave my husband a letter that for the first time in years explained how I felt and he saw I was resolved. He literally fell apart was crying, apologized for all these years etc... 

It's been 3 months since that happened, he was quite for the first 2 months, but over the past month we had those arguments over and over again. He says he was trying to ignore "the complete mess" in the our home but can't stand it anymore and is not willing to live like this and has to put a stop to this. A few days ago the house was a real mess even in my standards because the kids took a lot of toys and paintings out, we were running late for a meeting with friends and didn't have time to tidy up. Then, we got back home unexpectedly with the friends and the house was really a mess but this is quite rare... and there was a fallout ever since. Now he is not screaming but he's back to silent treatments, saying how hurt he is and why I'm not willing to put an effort into this and that if I want to keep my man and our relationship I have to act like a woman.

There was another weird instance a few days ago. We share one car, got back from a 2 hour drive with the kids and the car was messy (cookies, books on the floor etc), then he was nervous about me never cleaning the car or picking up their books/toys and that he will stop servicing the car, filling gas, etc. for me all the time if I treat the car like this (we have what I thought a fair agreement about responsibilities - he is responsible for everything related to the car, and I'm in charge of everything related to bureaucracy, bills, etc, which is probably more work than car stuff). 

So, it's been a week full of on and off silent treatments and me back to my cleaning and weaknes mode. He claims that while he is with the kids he manages to clean the place simultaneously (not true- everything is either a mess or they go to sleep an hour later that they should if he does it at the same time). 

This time, however, I lost the courage of my convictions and I don't think I can make an ultimatum as I won't be able to follow through. I know that apart from this OCPD or control issue, we are happy most of the time and this is pretty much my only concern. I do feel like nothing I do is enough and that I'll never be able to fill out every item in his insane checkout list (or, as he puts it "to care about it naturally and not treat house chores like a long checklist". 

Last time I was so fed up from all of this that I was resolved with a divorce if things don't change, but this time I can't even think about it. I love him, I imagine him with other women and can't stand the thought of this, and I know he'll fair better in a breakup than I am. As some posters on this forum call it, his market value has gone up while mine went down (nothing I can really do about it, I'm not overweight and I try to take a good care of myself). Financially we are tied up and both of us won't be able to afford a break up now or in the near future... And I don't know if this is something worth breaking up for because he is a good husband and a father , but again he doesn't really talk to me for the past week because something else on his crazy checklist is coming up each time which makes him silently mad. Mentally I think I'm at the end of my rope and can't spend my day picking up bread crumbs from the floor, making sure every toy and sock is in its place etc... 

To complicate things, his birthday is in 2 days and I don't how to treat it if basically we don't talk to each other. We bought a house recently but market went down, and don't have family to rely on here. Also, we both work from home and I work in his company lol (he is one of the owners but my boss is someone else). He won't agree to MC or IC for sure because according to him all therapists are charlatans. 

What do I do? 180? How, if I can't really follow through? Partial 180? Trying to have a decent talk again? I'll fail in a talk to because he'll say anything I say against me and I'd feel like a complete idiot or that he is right (half of his work is sales and he can convince anyone to take his point of view).


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Jasminka said:


> Hi guys, I'm back. Sorry for disappearing for so long, it's been an insane period, moving places, work turmoil... Short summery of my previous posts: I was trying to understand if my husband has an OCD, but then with your help realized it's more of a combination of control issue or OCPD. I was advised by all of you to put a stop to the repeated divorce threats and walking on egg shells in my own house. Anyway, I gave my husband a letter that for the first time in years explained how I felt and he saw I was resolved. He literally fell apart was crying, apologized for all these years etc...
> 
> It's been 3 months since that happened, he was quite for the first 2 months, but over the past month we had those arguments over and over again. He says he was trying to ignore "the complete mess" in the our home but can't stand it anymore and is not willing to live like this and has to put a stop to this. A few days ago the house was a real mess even in my standards because the kids took a lot of toys and paintings out, we were running late for a meeting with friends and didn't have time to tidy up. Then, we got back home unexpectedly with the friends and the house was really a mess but this is quite rare... and there was a fallout ever since. Now he is not screaming but he's back to silent treatments, saying how hurt he is and why I'm not willing to put an effort into this and that if I want to keep my man and our relationship I have to act like a woman.
> 
> ...


When you are finally sick and tired of being sick and tired you will do what everyone reading this thread knows you should have done years ago.
Come back then and you will get all the advice you need.
Again.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jasminka, thanks for returning to give us an update. I'm sorry to hear that your H refuses to seek therapy. Sadly, that outcome is not unexpected because, as I noted earlier, PDs nearly always are invisible to the folks suffering from them. If you decide that you and your kids are better off with you remaining in the marriage, you may benefit -- a little bit, at least -- from the advice usually given to the spouses of OCPDers (i.e., those on the upper third of the OCPD spectrum). An easy place to start reading is the advice given by Paul Arnold and by Perles and Arnold.


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## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

I feel your pain as my husband tends to be a "bully" also. He rarely compliments me and sets a very high bar regarding my house cleaning.

I do the best I can, yet it's never good enough. We have several dogs which it's my job to take care of. Long story short, when living together in Memphis and my Golden Retriever was in heat, I was heading to the shower so I asked if he could please kennel her so my male Puggle and her wouldn't get together. He told me it wasn't needed, and he'd keep an eye on them. Getting out of the shower he hollered, "I think we have a problem in here", as the two dogs were stuck together. He refuses to take the blame for the four puppies later; and being in Memphis was not the best place to adopt out puppies, so as soon as they were weaned, I brought them back to my home state, hoping to find them good homes. Called all my good dog friends, but nobody was interested in a black puppy, so I took them in myself rather than dumping them at the local Humane Society. This whole thing with the dogs was HIS fault as I trusted in his word to watch them and he didn't. Thus it's become MY problem to give them a loving home here.

Of course he wants nothing to do with them as they're not his problem, and he doesn't help me with them at all. I could be angry as all get out about it, but why bother.

I do my best to clean up after them and take good care of them, but that's never enough either. No matter how great the house smells, he still tells me it stinks like dog and I should just get rid of them. If it were that easy, I would, but dumping them off at the local Humane Society..NO. I worked there and it's a horrible environment. So I keep them here and give them all the love that I can.

As he often works out of town, I'm often on my own to take care of things, so that's what I did tonight. He messaged me and said, "I guess you're not going to call me then.."

I was busy after work making phone calls as my dad just passed away. Since being his caretaker for 10 years, I've been busy doing that..and in the past month, being there for his serious dementia; being there day and night while he passed away gradually for four days; and only coming home for a bit to shower, change my clothes and let the dogs out.

Thankfully I was there when my Dad passed away and had little time to grieve before my husband came home. 

He was supposed to be here to comfort me and help me through the funeral process; and he was..yet I'd told him that the house might not be up to his expectations...so maybe he should come at a later time when I had things more together regarding the house.

I was really thankful that he came when he did, however, it's been a major threat to our marriage as I'd let the house go and all he could do was look at all the dust in the corners, said it stunk like dog in here, etc. He told me one night that he could no longer live in a ****hole (after I'd cleaned up after the dogs and made things as immaculate as I could while he was away).

He's very particular, being a cop at one time and being in the Navy. I can clean our home from corner to corner and he still finds something wrong, such as I didn't get all the dust from under the stove..didn't pull out the refrigerator, etc. Told me that all the mop boards were filthy and needed cleaning..and when I told him to make me a list..he told me to clean EVERYTHING from top to bottom of the house..and then do it again or he was leaving.

He's been throwing leaving at me even before he got home. When he would say something derogatory to me, I'd tell him that he's not perfect; and he's say, "Well, I'll just leave then...."

There's just no winning with him.

We had several discussions when he was home regarding our marriage and he said that he expected a clean house..with everything sparkling clean. I try, yet again..it's never up to his standards. Again, he told me that he wasn't going to live in a ****hole (which I don't think our home is..); yet I could hire a maid service to come in here and clean and it still wouldn't be up to his standards as he'd find something wrong with it.

Another thing. He has now taken me off his friend list of FB since he said that I read his messages. Don't really understand that one as if he didn't have anything to hide, what difference would it make. He left it up when he left one day to get groceries and I happened to stumble on a conversation he'd left up with his daughter. I just saw a few conversations pieces and shut it down right away. Now he's got me blocked from sending him anything as he says I don't trust him and that there was no reason for me to read his conversations.

This coming from a guy that thinks I lie to him all the time (which I don't). Why reading a FB message would set him off only implies guilt in my opinion.

I don't care what conversations he reads on mine..I have no secrets; but lately he does. He's also blocked me from him Amazon account as he doesn't like me to see what he's buying. We always said from the beginning of our relationship that we'd have no secrets, but he keeps more and more from me. I don't care what he spends his money on, as he makes good money..I just want him to simply tell me about it.

We talked about this the other night also, yet he felt like I was spying on him or something. All I said was that he simply needed to tell me about what he spent money on, etc. It's gotten to the point that he no longer does that though..so blocking me from is accounts just keeps more and more secrets on his side of our marriage.

It's terrible when I have to run across a conversation that's about me and how horrible this last visit home was. Funeral..wife down in the dumps, etc. Then his daughter talking about him divorcing me and him saying that he'd thought about it. That's all I read and shut it down. I didn't want to read anymore..my business, but not my business.

His daughter also mentioned that she wanted to come home and see him, but with me down in the dumps..what fun was THAT??!

I read about 4 blurbs that were staring me in the face..and again..shut it down. I didn't need to be in his business, but they were put in my face. 

Then today he was all over why I didn't call him right after work since I told him I would this morning. I got caught up in phone calls regarding my dad's estate, etc. Normally my hubby texts me and tells me he's free to chat after his business phone calls, but I just got a text from him that said, "I'm assuming you're not calling me.."

Went from bad to worse from there, him asking me what time I got home..how long I'd been home, etc. Then telling me again how he'd unfriended me and blocked me from his FB. He acted like a child and I had to tell him over and over how I wasn't nosing into his accounts, etc.

He has complete access to MY accounts, yet wants me to have no access to his. This is not at all what we agreed upon during the duration of our marriage.

What it tells me is that he is somehow looking for a way out, although when I ask him he tells me no. As long as I keep a clean house, he'll keep coming home..but the next time..if the house isn't clean up to his standards..he's leaving.

I think leaving's been on his mind for awhile, as he kept talking about it before my dad passed away. Then all of a sudden he loved me enough to come home even when I told him I'd be okay and he should save his vacation for the weeks he'd planned for a few weeks later. By that time I'd be more myself and have the house cleaned the way he expected it to be.

Maybe he was hurt that I didn't need him as much as he wanted me to as he told me he'd had his bags packed to leave as soon as my dad passed away. The thing is, I needed to stay strong for my family and if I fell apart; they would too. We all cried, but I'd already done most of my grieving and knew the second my husband came home, I'd fall apart; which I did. I just needed that time to myself to process the entire thing..and look forward to him being here a few weeks later.

I'm glad he came, but again, it wasn't the right time. He's very sensitive and because I had to work during the week he was home..it didn't give us much bonding time, as he spent most days home alone.

In addition, I have sooo many things on my mind..so many things to take care of regarding my dad's estate, etc., that I often need to make important phone calls after work when he's expecting me to call him. I don't mean to be so busy, but he's used to the other me who is always available. His feelings are probably hurt because of that in addition to him thinking I'm checking up on him.

While he was here, he said, "I love you" little and when I asked he said that he just didn't think about it. Not a good sign at all from a husband that used to say it all the time.

I think we're truly on the skids and am afraid that before too long he's going to ask for a divorce.


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