# Wife is slipping away - Lonely



## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

I guess I've done it all wrong. Married 18 years, with two kids (13, 9), and what I thought was a rock solid marriage. We have a comfortable life (not luxurious, just conservatively comfortable). There have been no major issues in our marriage. No infidelity, no fanancial troubles, no addictions, etc....My stay at home wife works very hard to keep everything organized at home and caters to all the kids activities. She is an amazing woman/mother. I also work very hard, but make it a point to be home every night by 5:30, and every weekend. I am a very loyal and committed husband and father. I thought all was great in our marriage.

However, I felt my wife starting to slipping away from me a couple of years ago. It started with her telling me no more love taps on the rear because it was irritating...then I noticed she began closing the door of the bathroom when she was getting dressed/undressed....then she stopped kissing me goodnight before she went to bed. Most discouraging, she stopped calling me by "hun" or "sweetheart" and began calling me by my name. Sex decreased from once a week to about every 3 weeks, and she informed me that she no longer wanted to do certain intimate things that she once seemed to enjoy. 

I thought it would all pass, but the little signs kept getting worse. I asked her a number of times what was wrong, but the answer was "nothing". I was just obviously too sensitive to "normal" changes in a marriage after 18 years.

Finally, I couldn't take it any longer. (One month ago) I told her it couldn't continue and I wanted answers. She finally told me that she resented me for many "little things". She said, even though I was home every night, I truly wasn't there because my mind was still on work (she was right). I would come home a play with the kids and was always the good guy, while she fixed dinner and picked up after everyone (she was right). Passionate hugs and kissed always put my mind in full-on sex mode (she was right). I was mentally tired all the time due to a tough job (she was right), etc....

Like a ton of bricks, I woke up to a wife who was really harboring some deep negative feelings about me. In my efforts to make sure my family had all the material things they wanted, I guess I hadn't been there emotionally for her (or for my kids) as much as I should have. Example 1: When I had a very bad day, I would not share it with my wife because I didn't want her to worry about anything....however, she could tell that I was down, and the fact that I didn't share made her feel unimportant. Example 2: When the kids were acting up and getting on her nerves, I would pull out a game to play with them so they were distracted in a positive way. I thought she appreciated me getting them out of her hair, but she felt I was coming accross as the good guy instead of punishing them.

I guess I was just doing many things wrong....

I am angry with myself for not being more in tune with these type of things earlier, and I am angry with her for not sitting me down and telling me how she was feeling (instead of just letting it fester to this point). 

In light of my new perspective, I have changed many things about the way I handle myself for the better. However, things have gotten worse. It feels like now the cat is out of the bag, I am the bad guy, and she is dumping the success of our marriage on my shoulders. I am willing to take this on, but I want her to help with the solution. She is so different now compared to just two short years ago. When I try to talk to her about our relationship, she seems numb and changes the subject.

Here is where I am confused. Reading many of the posts on this site, some say I need to take the time to show her that I am diligently making changes for the better, and over time she will begin to feel better about me.......Other posts say that I need to not take this type of treatment, and I should let her know where I stand to get her off her new throne.

Patience and persistence?.....or spill the fact that I wont' take this much longer and she better have a change of heart before things go downhill fast.

My wife is not a delicate flower type. She is head-strong and a bit stubborn (as am I). She does not get flustered emotionally, and I am hurt knowing that she is somehow feeling good about me feeling bad about all of this. I am starting to feel very uneasy, and I'm afraid MY resentment is now building up quickly. If she has no interest in discussing it, I am now just the receiving end of her not being there emotionally for me (for us).

I welcome any suggestions and insights.


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## HappyHer (Nov 12, 2009)

There are two of you in this equation and you both need to work through this - together. She resented you, but she came clean, you are making changes. To hold onto those resentments at this point is unfair to you when you are trying so hard to make things right. She could've spoke up many times, she chose not to. I would suggest to get into counseling so you can talk through all of this. At least that way you know you will have some time to be heard as she is not listening to you otherwise.


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

go rent the movie fireproof or read the book the love dare, do that 40 day repair and see if you can't turn her around....good luck


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

careful said:


> I guess I've done it all wrong...


Why does someone have to be right or wrong?

Nothing that you describe is wrong. As a husband and as a parent, your behaviour is 10/10 ... and your wife's also.

Sometimes people fall out of love. You can blame yourself if you want, but read the stories on these boards and you will soon learn that as a husband, as a father, and as a provider you do very well indeed.

Sometimes, love fades.

You need to start looking for solutions. Most problems start with a loss of desire, aka "love you but not in love with you." That is an easy problem to solve. Your wife appears to no longer love you. Re-igniting love is a very difficult task. You will need professional help.

Good luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why is it ok that she concealed all this from you, became gradually more and more cold to you and is now telling you all the ways you failed? 

This is the "you're not perfect" model of female/male interaction. Has she ever said "I am sorry for not being more communicative"
with you? 

Has she ever said "I know you were preoccupied about work because you felt it was your responsibility to make sure none of US ever had to worry about money?"

Is she perfect? 

Tell you what - I think you have a much much bigger issue. You are conflict avoidant with her. No one likes fighting with their wife. Women are emotionally powerful - I think more powerful than men. But when she started to shut you down sexually you let her do it. You never demanded a straight answer. 



careful said:


> I guess I've done it all wrong. Married 18 years, with two kids (13, 9), and what I thought was a rock solid marriage. We have a comfortable life (not luxurious, just conservatively comfortable). There have been no major issues in our marriage. No infidelity, no fanancial troubles, no addictions, etc....My stay at home wife works very hard to keep everything organized at home and caters to all the kids activities. She is an amazing woman/mother. I also work very hard, but make it a point to be home every night by 5:30, and every weekend. I am a very loyal and committed husband and father. I thought all was great in our marriage.
> 
> However, I felt my wife starting to slipping away from me a couple of years ago. It started with her telling me no more love taps on the rear because it was irritating...then I noticed she began closing the door of the bathroom when she was getting dressed/undressed....then she stopped kissing me goodnight before she went to bed. Most discouraging, she stopped calling me by "hun" or "sweetheart" and began calling me by my name. Sex decreased from once a week to about every 3 weeks, and she informed me that she no longer wanted to do certain intimate things that she once seemed to enjoy.
> 
> ...


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Thank you so much the responses. I realize as I go through this that I do not have friends I can talk to about it. I am either at work, or at home. My hobbies all revolve around my kids. I am not comfortable sharing my issues with family members (long story). It is a releif just being able to write it all out and communicate with smart and thoughtful people. I have taken your advice, and have made an appointment with a counselor. I intend to invite my wife to come with me. I am expecting rejection on this. She may view this as a lack of privacy in our marriage.

It hurts to hear that she may just not love me anymore, but I there is obviously truth to that. I hope I am not naive, but I don't think my wife is going to leave me or do anything else drastic. There are still very good moments we have together, especially revolved around the kids. Other than the underlying change in love, we operate as a happy family.

I am still puzzled on which direction to take in my actions. 

I am very tempted to just tell her that this is NOT how the rest of my life is going to be. I want a soul-mate as my wife. Someone who cares about my desires, and wants to make me happy. Someone who cares deeply when I am sad. Someone who adores me and works hard to keep things happy between us. The mistakes I have made were unintentional, and I do not deserve to be resented anymore. There is honestly no way I can live happy any other way much longer. Sometimes, I think she would respect me more for taking a stand like this. I know I would respect myself more.

However, I have read many posts that would encourage me to quietly and patiently show her, by my ACTIONS, that I heard her concerns loud and clear, and let her see that I am serious about correcting my side of the equation in our marriage. She may be testing me to see whether my determination to fix our marriage is just a temporary thing. This way, maybe there is more chance that her feelings for me will return on her terms, which may be a smarter long-term approach. 

Most important, I absolutely need to wake up every morning and go to sleep every night knowing that SHE is happy. That is what makes my life worthwhile. I am willing to do whatever it takes to get there. The trick is how to do it without pushing her farther away.

I look forward to any thoughts on this decision....


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## funlovingdad (Jan 6, 2010)

I'm pretty much in your situation. The only difference is that my wife has talked about divorce. If yours hasn't, you have time to take the route where you let your actions do the talking. Try that first and if you don't see any improvement, tell her about wanting a soulmate, etc. 

Best of luck. I know this isn't easy.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hi FunLovingDad; Sorry to hear about your situation. It really sucks the energy out of you, doesn't it. Can you tell me when you first realized there was a problem? Did your wife begin to slip away slowly as mine has done? What have you tried that has worked well? Anything you've done that has backfired?

I hope I am not butting in where I don't belong, but I am anxious to share experiences in hopes we both can have the results we are hoping for.

Anything you can share? Personal email?


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## funlovingdad (Jan 6, 2010)

We may have drifted apart slowly over time. But I never knew it was that bad until she told me. We were on a getaway and, while at a piano bar, a patron became to physical on the dance floor with her. I didn't do anything about it (I was drunk and don't really remember it) so this even forced her to tell me that night that she wasn't happy. The part that hurts is that she went right to wanting out of the marriage. I never heard "I want to work on this." She hasn't left me yet so I take that as a good sign every day.

Shortly after she told me, I found out she had been calling a guy she works with. She told me he asked her to do a project for him (she's a graphic designer). She never told me about it because she said I get too involved in her freelance work and she always feels pressured into doing projects she doesn't want to do. But she admitted she also called him as an escape where they would share a joke or whatever. The calls stopped after I confronted her about them. But they still work together.

So I've been doing everything I can and that may be the part that is pushing her away. I think I panicked because I felt there was a sense of urgency. I asked her about counseling right away. She said no but she wouldn't rule it out down the road. We went on living normal with a few discussions here and there. The sex was still there about once a week. I honestly thought things were getting better until she told me after the new year that she still felt the same. 

That leads us to today where we still have talks but I know she doesn't want to. Actually I would prefer not to also but I feel that if we're not working on it, we're letting it die. She does have male friends at work and one of them gets a little close in my opinion. I've asked to meet him but no luck yet.

She is now willing to go to a counselor on her own so I'm hoping something will help there and eventually we see one together.

So my advice to you is to show her that you're a good husband. Don't force the sex issue. That will come when the emotion is back. But you may also want to keep an eye on her actions. I never thought my wife would talk to a guy behind my back but it happened. Anything can happen when it involves the heart.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Before I give you concrete advice about fixing the marriage, I want you to do a couple of things: get the phone records out for the last couple years - especially starting with when she started to withdraw - and see if there is a phone number you either don't recognize, or you see a LOT. Find out whose number that is; and look on the computer for history, to see if she is communicating with someone.

Before you waste your time busting your butt to be superdad, make sure you're not putting all the effort into someone who's been getting her needs met by someone else. Because if she is, she will just resent you for changing.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

FunLovingDad; I am happy to hear that things have stabilized a little for you, and I truly wish you the best. It is great that she cares enough to see a counselor, so I hope that helps her get her priorities straight.

I appreciate your advice on watching her actions. At first, I told myself that she would NEVER cheat on me, and I truly felt that way. As time went on, I began to get a little paranoid. I i then began watching things very carefully without outright spying, and there have been zero signs of anything unusual. She does not work, does not go out, does not use email or texting. She does have a cell phone, but she and I use it together for family business. She does work out 3-days a week, but my mom is usually at the gym taking classes at the same time, and my wife talks with her before and after her work-out regularly. In addition, when she finally admitted resentment toward me, I asked her flat out whether she wanted to separate or end our relationship. She said, "of course not". She prides herself on being a very honest person, and shows that she is in every aspect of her life. I don't want to be niave or foolish, but I truly don't think there is any other man involved. However, it is entirely possible that she is wishing there was (which is terrible in itself). Hope I am not being snowed. 

I don't know if this helps you, but I recently have begun to focus on my kids, our hobbies, the house, etc...and stopped following my wife around like a lost puppy. I joined a gym myself, and bought some new clothes. I also have tried very hard to be positive, upbeat, and confident (instead of down in the dumps). I have noticed that my wife is noticing this. Nothing much has changed in her actions, but she seems to be smiling a little more at me. I even got a nice Valentines card from her with a little note inside. This is in contrast to no card on our anniversary a few months ago.

It is interesting that you are still intimate once a week or so. Is the fire still there the same as it always has been? Our sex life has slowed down some, and there is certainly not the same passion as there once was. My wife has asked me to quit doing some of the things she used to enjoy. I think maybe because she knows it hurts me to hear it.

Is your wife playing with your emotions to hurt you? or is she a straight-shooter? This is something I am struggling with. My wife seems to be enjoying the fact that I am hurt by everything that is going on.

Again, don't mean to pry. It's just comforting to talk about things a little.


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## funlovingdad (Jan 6, 2010)

careful said:


> FunLovingDad; I am happy to hear that things have stabilized a little for you, and I truly wish you the best. It is great that she cares enough to see a counselor, so I hope that helps her get her priorities straight.
> 
> I appreciate your advice on watching her actions. At first, I told myself that she would NEVER cheat on me, and I truly felt that way. As time went on, I began to get a little paranoid. I i then began watching things very carefully without outright spying, and there have been zero signs of anything unusual. She does not work, does not go out, does not use email or texting. She does have a cell phone, but she and I use it together for family business. She does work out 3-days a week, but my mom is usually at the gym taking classes at the same time, and my wife talks with her before and after her work-out regularly. In addition, when she finally admitted resentment toward me, I asked her flat out whether she wanted to separate or end our relationship. She said, "of course not". She prides herself on being a very honest person, and shows that she is in every aspect of her life. I don't want to be niave or foolish, but I truly don't think there is any other man involved. However, it is entirely possible that she is wishing there was (which is terrible in itself). Hope I am not being snowed.
> 
> ...


Be thankful she doesn't use texting. I think that's where my wife get's away with chatting with this guy. She locks her phone with a code too so I can't look at them even though she "has nothing to hide." 

Just keep your guard up. I always thought my wife was family-oriented and would do anything to have a happy family. But she has changed greatly and I think it is because some of her "friends" at work. She told me she is more confident now. I'm happy she is but why can't she be confident and married to me? It's like she thinks she's better than me now. 

I have tried to keep my spirits up. The kids help with that. And I try to be upbeat around her too. She is upbeat with the kids but when I try to talk to her, it's one-word answers most of the time. 

I don't know how to read her right now. I always thought she was loving and caring but she doesn't show it as much anymore. She keeps saying that I'm not listening to her or accepting her feelings. I disagree. I know that she is feeling the way she is but she has never told me why. If she doesn't know why herself, wouldn't that motivate her to go see someone? If I didn't know why I was sad about something, I would go see a professional just like I do if I'm sick or injured. 

It just feels like she's had it with her marriage and I don't know why. It hasn't been that bad and the bad things can easily be changed. She also has to want to have feelings for me too. I've told her sometimes you have to do things to get the feelings back. Like kisses good night and hugs and sex once in a while. But she is purposely not doing those things to validate her feelings I think. I know I feel the most love for her when I do something nice for her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you installed a keylogger on the computer? Did you read the phone records?


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## funlovingdad (Jan 6, 2010)

If you're asking me, yes I use a keylogger. I check the phone records daily and nothing has been out of the ordinary since I confronted her about the calls to the guy from work. But texting is one I'm not able to monitor.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry, I meant careful.


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## funlovingdad (Jan 6, 2010)

I thought you may have been talking about careful but he said she doesn't e-mail. Sorry!


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hi Turnera; No, I haven't used a key logger. My wife does not use the computer. We have a family email that my daughter manages. I suppose it is possible that my wife has secretly become computer literate and has a separate email, but I have not seen any evidence of this. Maybe it is something I need to do if I get hints of anything going on. I am not very computer literate myself, so I really don't even know how a keylogger works (other than it tracks key strokes, right?).

I did check her cell phone records for about a month or so during my paranoid period. Zero unknown numbers, and only a call or two a day to family members, dentist office, etc... It is used as a family phone. I take it with me sometimes, and she gives it to my kids if they are out. No sign of hang-up calls, and no strange numbers. 

The only way she would be communicating with anyone secretly would be with our home phone during the day. Again, I suppose it is possible, so I suppose it would be smart to check it, even if it is just another way to eliminate suspicion.

She just doesn't seem to have anything to hide. If she is hiding something, she is the best liar in the universe. I don't want to be naive, but I just don't see any signs.....but that doesn't mean that she isn't wishing she is with someone else, or that she won't go down that road in the future. It would shock me, but it seems like there are a lot of shocked spouses out there.

I will keep an eye on phone records, and will keep my senses sharp for anything else. What a shame that I am not just enjoying my family and wife without these worries. It makes me sick to think that I am checking phone records, etc...

At the same time, I am happy to accept advice and suggestions from people who have been down this road, or helped others.

I get angrier and angrier the more I think about all of this. My wife is playing a dangerous game unless she truly wants me gone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

All it takes is one comment from a long-lost boyfriend, and instantly, your whole life together was meaningless. And it's all in her head! I'm not saying she's cheating or even talking - and affairs happened over land phones long before cell phones were even invented, fwiw - it's just that you need to know for sure, before you go all out fixing yourself, for someone who's so busy thinking about someone else she won't even notice. 

And fyi, once you DO cheat, you instantly become an expert liar. You have to. Most of the people I've come across whose spouse cheated (1) had absolutely no idea because their spouse never gave a clue and (2) swore their spouse would never do it.

Except for serial cheaters, most people who do cheat never intend to. They get swept into it...one conversation at a time. Just a 'you look great' or 'I've missed you' is enough to get someone's heart pumping, and thinking about how good it would feel to talk to that person again. It's all about that 'feeling good' part. It's an addiction, and you do unbelievable things you swore you would never do, just because that 'feel good' was SO amazing.

Now, that said, I absolutely don't guarantee she is cheating. It's just as possible she isn't, and is just sick and tired of you! (and if that's the case, you can do a lot to fix things) I just want you to do a little hardcore searching - just download a keylogger for a week, just to see if she gets on, and check the landline phone records - and then you'll know. Then you can stop if you find nothing, and dedicate yourself to fixing yourself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, and btw, most definitely work on yourself, anyway. We all should never stop working on ourselves and our marriages. Just don't pin all your hopes on it.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hi Turnera; No, I haven't used a key logger. My wife does not use the computer. We have a family email that my daughter manages. I suppose it is possible that my wife has secretly become computer literate and has a separate email, but I have not seen any evidence of this. Maybe it is something I need to do if I get hints of anything going on. I am not very computer literate myself, so I really don't even know how a keylogger works (other than it tracks key strokes, right?).

I did check her cell phone records for about a month or so during my paranoid period. Zero unknown numbers, and only a call or two a day to family members, dentist office, etc... It is used as a family phone. I take it with me sometimes, and she gives it to my kids if they are out. No sign of hang-up calls, and no strange numbers. 

The only way she would be communicating with anyone secretly would be with our home phone during the day. Again, I suppose it is possible, so I suppose it would be smart to check it, even if it is just another way to eliminate suspicion.

She just doesn't seem to have anything to hide. If she is hiding something, she is the best liar in the universe. I don't want to be naive, but I just don't see any signs.....but that doesn't mean that she isn't wishing she is with someone else, or that she won't go down that road in the future. It would shock me, but it seems like there are a lot of shocked spouses out there.

I will keep an eye on phone records, and will keep my senses sharp for anything else. What a shame that I am not just enjoying my family and wife without these worries. It makes me sick to think that I am checking phone records, etc...

At the same time, I am happy to accept advice and suggestions from people who have been down this road, or helped others.

I get angrier and angrier the more I think about all of this. My wife is playing a dangerous game unless she truly wants me gone.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Accidently resent my previous post. Now everyone sees that my computer skills are pretty weak! Ha ha.

Thanks Turnera for the very sound advice. I hate to have to do it, but I will justify doing it by hoping it will confirm my trust. I would rather feel like an idiot for doing the check than to be an idiot for not checking (if that makes sense).

I agree with you on the slippery slope. I have an ex-friend who cheated on his wife. I almost watched it happen, but didn't realize what was truly going on until he told me. They connected as "friends", and then the moon caught them both one night and it was history. His wife still doesn't know (expert liar), and I lost all respect for him. After he cheated, I saw him sink into being a jerk. It must have boosted his guilt and confidence at the same time. Sickening.

My wife acts as though she does not need me right now. She has never been a needy person. I am hoping that plays in my favor so she does not feel the need to get her needs elsewhere anytime now or in the future.

How does anyone feel about asking the question flat out..."Have you been 100% faithful to me"?


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## funlovingdad (Jan 6, 2010)

You can ask her that but if she's lying, she's lying. My wife said she has never been unfaithful to me. Technically she has emotionally and I have the proof of that. But for now I believe she has never been physical with someone else. Maybe I'm wrong. 

She thinks all of her e-mails to the OM are innocent. But if they hurt me because she talks to him like she should be talking to me, then it's an emotional affair. Maybe I need to show her the definition of a EA to wake her up.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fld: most definitely show her.

careful: don't waste your time. And you should tell your friend's wife. What if one of YOUR friends knows about your wife's affair and has decided not to tell you?


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## cookie58 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi Careful,
Been on this list for about four months and this is my first post. I felt compelled to respond to your situation. Married 23 years, three kids (24 S, 19 D, 17 D). I too thought everything was fine in my marriage until about six months ago...after being rejected for intimacy ( Several times over a few months) I told my husband we needed "too Talk". 

Found out he wasn't happy, felt like he wasn't welcome in his own home. I got the "I love you but we are just friends" speech
Translation" I love you but I'm not in Love with you" speech. 

I asked if he wanted a divorce and he said yes, but then backtracked and said he didn't, he was confused. He was afraid to stay but afraid to go. Much more going on here, I went through a few rough years with him about 3 years ago and I can say that I felt the same way, but I never verbalized that to him. I pulled myself out of it and regained my "in Love" for him

anyway, he felt that something had changed in me for him, etc....I was devastated, as your are now. Let me say that now that I look back on it Im glad I was devestated because I was in shock enough not to do something stupid. 

Another note: he has properly diagnosed ADD and takes Adderall although not everyday. So I have some other issues that you do not have. 

Here is my advice (for what it's worth): I know there are many good resources available (Marraige busters - great!! listen to the radio show and website, Five love languages - also good and both should be reviewed) But without a doubt that thing that has saved my sanity is MarriageMax by Mort Fertel. I ordered the whole package (Tele-boot camp) and I listen to those tapes almost everyday (with headphones) at work, in the car, when Im on the computer. I know them by heart now and employ everyone of his suggestions. I'm in the lone ranger track however my H is aware that Im doing that and did fill out the intimacy interview and serveral other things. 

I can say that I am MUCH happier and I can't say for sure but we have had no further conversations about leaving or anything close to that and I am slowing but surely getting responses from him that give me hope. 

But here the thing: Even if it doesn't work out for him, I know without a doubt that I have done everything humanly possible to reconcile our situation and that these things are now ME, part of ME, I've changed my habits and I will have a great marraige, soul mate kind of thing. 

I (and he) believed we were soul mates when we got married and there was tremendous love there, so if you wife has not left yet and even though she may be obstinate - there is still hope. But do it for you, it also keeps me from back treading into anger, frustration and dispair and the "It's not fair" mentality. 

Sometimes one person does have to carry the load more than the other, but if it works - So what. It's balances out somewhere eventually. 

I wish you the best of luck and will be checking you thread to see how you are doing.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hello Cookie58; Thanks for your message. Sorry to hear that you had to go through some tough times, and I am happy to hear that you have found a way to look for positives and put together a plan that helps. I have heard of MarriageMax, and I think I have even seen it advertised on this site. I will take your advice and look into it.

My wife and I were never soul mates. We shared the same values, interests, and circumstances put us together at a time when both of us were looking for love. We were truly in love for many years, and it was a very comfortable relationship from both sides. For 16 years, I am convinced that neither one of us had a second thought about our marriage. My wife was so devoted to our young children, she was busy 24/7. Now that our kids need her less (13, 9), I was hoping she would swing her devotion and energy over more to me. But that has not happened, and as you read in my earlier posts, she seems to have gone a different direction.

If you don't mind, may I ask you a few questions?

1. During the time when you felt indifferent about your husband, what things happened that allowed you to fall back "in love" with him? Did he say, do or change anything to win you back? or scare you in some way? What allowed you to come back?

2. As he was being distant, did you suspect an affair of some kind? 

3. If you were me, would you step back and give my wife space (patient and kind approach)? or would you confront the situation with the honesty that things are going to have to get better quickly, or they will go really bad quickly?

Loaded questions, and I realize that you don't know me or my wife, but any insights would be welcomed.

I wish the best for you as you continue to make progress, and look forward to further communication with you.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

After studying this thread it is seeming you are on the right track, and if you are consistent with what you have started I predict you will have what it is you are desiring.

Already you have mentioned you are focused on yourself, and your happiness first. THis is most important, as it was when you were dating, to again become this man to your woman.

These things you are asking, whether to be patient or confront, this is not even to question, to NEVER sit back, to not "give space" or anything else that is instead a one way ticket to seperation.

Instead it is always better to confront, and confront often.  And to your other point, this confronting is sometimes using words, but most times not.

As in, these sexual things you are wanting, and your wife is not. There is the reason for this, and you are probably already knowing this, it is the test from your woman to see how much you are willing to fight for her.

To fail this test, will make you resenting your woman for feeling less the man, and your woman feeling less as a woman, leading to her resenting you even more.

The important things you have mentioned, your woman values honesty, and therefore if you are knowing this, use this to full measure. For example, to be brutally honest as to what are your needs sexually and emotionally as a man, to how you are needing your woman to perform this or that sexual task to make you happy.

Too often it is the man trying to make his woman "happy", that instead he really only makes her bored, and creating resentment that kills her sense of feminine feeling sexually attractive to her man.

To make a woman feel this way, it is many times some affair man just around the corner if not already!

Instead, try to work on your relationship from this radical thought, that the things you may call selfish, such as your particular sexual appetites that need fullfilled, think of these things to demonstrate in actions, not words, taht you are expecting your woman to fullfill, and perform, and see that how that is making her react to you, if she is eager or surprise that you are "standing up for yourself" and even showing her and "edge" to yourself very masculine, and even in some ways "primitive".

To see her reaction to that attitude would tell you a great deal to the solution.

Also you may find beneficial to do the search on "dominant man" threads, but I am betting you are already seeing some of them to take some suggestions to action already.

I wish you well.


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## cookie58 (Jan 28, 2010)

Hi Careful,

my H has ADD so there are other things at play for me, but we had a rough time because we had three teengers at home all with ADD as well. Fortunately, they all have fairly mild cases and are other very smart and healthy. But I felt like a slave and a maid. I am not a procastinator and am very organized so thank god for that!!!

But they all can not finish what they start, cant find anything even if it is staring them in the face, forget half of everything you tell them and cant put anything away. So you can imagine what my house was like. I work full time as well. But my H started to have issues with the kids for the very things that he does as well and had a very short temper for a while. I had built up resentment and loneliness which is a problem for non-ADD spouses anyway. But the biggest thing was the conflict he had with our son on a daily basis....plus there was sibling rivilry going on and one of my D's is very senistive, anyway it would take me months to explain all of that,, but hopefully you get the
picture

All of that has pretty much worked itself out, I got them all on Adderall and my son is in the Army (in Iraq right now, second tour) smart a whip and doing well. D's are still at home but also doing well. 

So to answer your first question. I was very unhappy and I threatened to leave...(I know now, never ever do this). But he asked me not to...I told him I was lonely and frustrated and he listened but then nothing really changed except he stopped yelling at the kids and I could see he was tying very hard to deal with them in a more calm and adult manner. So I said to myself...well, I need to do something anything. First: walk through the door, shut it and lock it. Your in it for the long haul.

Once I decided that was what I was going to do then I said what can I do to remove things that are between us. This was about 3 years ago...I stopped smoking first. He doesn't smoke and would make comments about the smell, etc.....but wouldn't hound me about it since I smoked when he met me Then I learned to play golf he plays golf and I never had not one bit of interest in it AT ALL, I would fall asleep on the couch if we were watching it on TV. But I gave it a try and amazingly I love it.

Then I just started removing negative thoughts every time I hard them....(Detour for awhile as I went through Menopause, biggest problem there is that I would get angry for no reason whatsoever, and say very mean things) I told him many times to just ignore me and I would tell him when I felt this way. My guess is this is when his feelings started to decline and fade.

But I soon found my "romantic" feelings returning, I never stopped loving him but you know the difference in those feelings. So I was flying pretty high with the kids being grown up and time together for us was getting much better, we were doing everything together. We are both Hockey fans, work out, play golf, go to movies, etc....I have made some adjustments as I like to dance and gamble and he does not. so those went bye bye. So I truly did blind side me when this happened, here I was thinking "Second Honeymoon" kind of thing and he was thinking he was hanging out with a friend. 

The pain was unreal.....the panic, the anger, the it's not fair thing. But I hung on and did't do anything stupid like validate his feelings and say understanding things like "I understand if you want to move out" etc. I asked if he wanted to go to counseling - NO, I asked if there was someone else - NO

Of course I suspected it but the truth is that I handle all the finances (which is changing) and the bills. He is home every night and all weekends unless it was family related (kids activities). He never talks on the phone and is when he is on the computer he is on his laptop and usually in the same room with me. Now it doesn't mean he couldn't be, but it would only be during mon-fri 8-5. I cant imagine that would be possible to maintain for very long.

Alot of people on hear will suggest that the first thing to do is verify an affair (EA and/or PA) and I would agree but I wouldn't assume that is a given. I cant check his blackberry or his email as it is work related and has security on it. But then I doubt he would use that anyway as he is in IT and works with a secret clearance. 

So no, I have done some checking but there is nothing, nada to lead me to believe that. Anyway, I have found that working on my issues and my out look (through marriage max) has helped me and I see progress as he is still here, we still do everything together, we are slowly reconnecting and if you align you actions with your values (not your emotions) you can get through this. 

Hope that answered your questions, but let me know will be happy to try again if not....being a "lurker" on this site has helped me as well, although try not to get to caught up in situations that dont closely match yours as it takes time away
for the positive websites and books or anything else that you decide to do to help yourself. 

I have not gone to couselling either and I think that I found the right path with what I have so probably won't unless it goes south for some reason. I'm not an overly religious person (no church) but I am a person of faith and I have let it go to GOD for the ultimate outcome but I believe that he lead me to where I needed to go so hopefully you will find what will work for you also..



Do not do anything


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hi Cookie58; You are a smart and special person. The efforts you are making to make things better are admirable. I am glad to hear that your kids are doing well, and I will wish the best for you and your husband. 

You and I have a very similar situation indeed, but one difference (if I read your post correctly) is that you and your husband do many things together. Maybe that is due to your efforts to move yourself into his world. My wife doesn't seem to want to do anything with just the two of us. No dinners out, no vacations, no alone time at all. In fact, I won a one-night stay at a very high-end hotel in my city about two months before our anniversary (along with a gift card to a nice restaurant). I was really excited for the alone time since we were not able to spend the night away from home on our last anniversary due to some family issues. She decided it would not be a good idea to leave our two kids at Grandma's because they were both a little tired and cranky. We went out to dinner alone, but I ended up giving the free $400 hotel room to a co-worker whos wife was very excited to go. That one hurt. Now that I think about it, I am wondering if last year's excuse wasn't also a way to get out of the night together. Even when we are out to dinner together, she is quite quiet, or talks about the kids or other things going on. On valentines day, I made reservations to a nice restaurant, and she was surprisingly receptive and even suggested a movie together. Halfway through dinner, I asked her if she remembered the red dress she wore on one of our first nice dinners together 20 years ago. Her answer...."Yeah, why?". "Because that was one of the most memorable nights of my life (because we were intimate in very special ways that night). Her response...."Oh, I don't even have that dress anymore". Maybe this sounds petty, but two years ago, her answer would have been...."I still have that dress, so maybe I'll try it on for you again tonight". Big change.

I guess the unresolved "resentment" has taken deep root. 

I am also 95% sure there is no affair. Like your husband, she just shows no signs at all, and I have done some checking too. I am not stupid, so I will likely continue to watch for signs if for no other reason but to continue to keep my mind from drifting into a paranoid state.

I sure appreciate your story and friendly help. I wish my wife had the desire to make even half the effort you have to fix things. 

You said you threatened to leave, and that you know now to never do that again. Why?


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

'how much you are willing to fight for her'...
Spot on. 
She was very angry because of mostly neglect. 'Working on things' means she wants you to fight for her and show her she's important now. And not, this doesn't mean lost puppy mode following her around asking if she wants a cookie or massage every 5 minutes. This means you do whatever you did when you started dating her, gained her trust, friendship, were preocupied with how you looked etc.


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## unloved (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm so sorry you're going through this - I can completely sympathize as I'm going through a similar withdrawal by my husband. At least you didn't wait 6 yrs to broach the subject like I did. 

He's told me he doesn't love me anymore and my heart is absolutely shattered. I vacillate from wanting to fix things to just letting go. He won't go to counceling. He won't tell me one way or the other if he thinks it is 100% over between us. If he told me that, I would probably leave. I'm paranoid that he will string me along until our son graduates high school and then divorce me. For now, he keeps me in some sort of limbo and I'm at a complete loss as to how to change anything. The main issue he keeps bringing up as what he feels is the root of our problem is something I can't change. FWIW, we operate as quite a functional, happy family and interact quite normally when we aren't talking about our relationship or complete lack of intimacy. But, like you, my husband avoids romantic situations where it would be just me and him - dinners for two, vacations without our son, etc. Like you, I really highly doubt my spouse is having or has had an affair.

I really don't have any advice, but I'll be interested in how things go with you and your wife and wish you the best of luck and just know there are many more of us out here who share your pain.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hi Nekko; Thanks for the great advice. I am working hard to focus on exactly what you have suggested. I think it is having a positive affect, but it is hard to tell from day to day.

Unloved.....So sorry for what is happening with you. Shattered is a good word. I am wondering if you feel that your husband is being manipulative. You say that you are in limbo. Is there a chance that he is feeling powerful and secure having you in this position? Have you considered calling his bluff to see what he would do? My wife has never been manipulative, but sometimes I feel like she really enjoying seeing me pinned under her thumb with my feelings. Since she has stated that I have neglected her (and my kids) emotionally in the past, I wonder if she is "getting me back". If this is the case with either you or me, it might take a good jolt to get our spouses to understand they are playing a dangerous game. I absolutely hate thinking about playing along with games like this, but I am thinking I can convince myself honestly that it would be best for me to force myself to be happy, focus on what I enjoy outside of the relationship, and stop worrying about this so much. A kind of what comes will come attitude. What do you think?


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## unloved (Feb 17, 2010)

careful said:


> Hi Nekko; Thanks for the great advice. I am working hard to focus on exactly what you have suggested. I think it is having a positive affect, but it is hard to tell from day to day.
> 
> Unloved.....So sorry for what is happening with you. Shattered is a good word. I am wondering if you feel that your husband is being manipulative. You say that you are in limbo. Is there a chance that he is feeling powerful and secure having you in this position? Have you considered calling his bluff to see what he would do? My wife has never been manipulative, but sometimes I feel like she really enjoying seeing me pinned under her thumb with my feelings. Since she has stated that I have neglected her (and my kids) emotionally in the past, I wonder if she is "getting me back". If this is the case with either you or me, it might take a good jolt to get our spouses to understand they are playing a dangerous game. I absolutely hate thinking about playing along with games like this, but I am thinking I can convince myself honestly that it would be best for me to force myself to be happy, focus on what I enjoy outside of the relationship, and stop worrying about this so much. A kind of what comes will come attitude. What do you think?


I don't know if he is being manipulative on purpous. I think he's stayed with me because of our son and he's also not an action/change oriented kind of person. He did open up to me more than he ever has about his feelings when I practically forced him to talk to me about it a few days this week. I don't know, I feel like it helped both of us understand more clearly how we got to where we are right now, but did nothing to change the situation. I'm at a complete loss as to where to go from here. I'm not completely unhappy with my life - my son, my family, my job, my friends, my running, and even my husband as roommate. And I'm terrified of what my "new" life would be if we got a divorce. I'm still so stupidly hopeful that there is a miniscule chance that we can work things out that I don't file for divorce or ask him to leave. 

As for adopting a "what comes will come attitude", that's what I did many years ago instead of fighting. It's how I've gone so long this way. I just woke up one day and realized nothing was going to change, good or bad, unless I confronted the giant elephant in the room. 

Adopting a what comes will come attitude might help you cope with your situation but it won't get your wife back. I think people can live that way for a long time but eventually it consumes them like a cancer.

What do you have in mind by a "good jolt"?


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hi Unloved.....In my case, a "good jolt" might be as simple as taking a stand for myself (which I have not done). As you can tell by my repeated question in my posts, I struggle with whether to just keep my chin up and do everything possible to show my wife that I am serious about changing my ways, in hopes that over time she will slowly come around again.......or whether I should get angry about this and tell her that I am not going to take it anymore. I have my faults. To sum them up in one sentence would be....I have let my anxieties (from work and life) get in the way of my relationship with my family. I have always been there physically for them, but I UNintentially allowed my mind to always think about work, finances, investments, material things (not for myself but for family). She is 100% correct that I spent too much of my emotions on these things, yet I couldn't tell you what grades my daughter got on her last report card. HOWEVER, I have ALWAYS been there with my family every step of the way. Never missed a game, two vacations every year, home every night and weekends (religiously), gave up individual hobbies that took time away from family, etc.....

Sorry for my ramblings, but I get angry when I think about the fact that my wife has ALLOWED her feelings to fade without doing anything to TRY to correct things. Maybe I need to find a way to have her begin thinking about what her life would be like if I wasn't there. Maybe she needs to be told that I am unwilling to live my life this way much longer, and that I deserve to have someone who cherishes the GOOD things I do for my family (which outweight the bad 100 times).

I would NEVER cheat on her, but I can certainly think of many things I would rather be doing than sitting up at night hoping she will give me a hug before bed.

Have you had the same thoughts?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A good thing in such cases is to establish boundaries. Lots of good books out there on this. Determine your set 'rules' that you can and can't live with. KNOW them. Explain them to her. And tell what the consequences are if they are crossed. Once you know what your boundaries are, you can enact your consequences with a clear mind, because you explained yourself, gave them a chance, and then protected yourself. Such a thing might be "I will not be married to someone who will not have sex with me at least once every 3 months." And let her know that. And if 3 months goes by, you'll know that SHE has chosen to ignore your boundary, and you need to make plans to leave. You TELL the other person what your boundaries are, so that they have free will to either care about you, or not.

Mind you, these have to be real boundaries, that you can live with. But what would be the alternative? Keep waiting, year after year, saying THIS will be the year I leave, if she doesn't have sex with me? And ten years goes by, while you sit and wait for her to notice you and care about you?

You have to protect yourself.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks Turnera; The boundries important to me are not things that are tangible. For instance, even if my wife "agreed" to have sex with me 3 times a week, if she was not excited about it, I would still be totally unsatisfied. The things that are critical for my happiness are not something I can schedule. I need her to FEEL things for me. I can't make her feel something she doesn't feel, and maybe I am fooling myself, but if I felt a strong love coming from her, I don't think I would have a problem with a reduction in the frequency of sex. In fact, I would give sex up altogether just to have her crazy about me again. I know these things are not exclusive to one another, but you know what I mean.

I guess what you are saying is that I need to set the boundries that are critical for ME, and then communicate them with her. She can then choose whether to satisfy those needs or not.

Sex is a funny thing with me. I don't enjoy it if she does not enjoy it. I crave certain "out of the ordinary" things, but when she says "you can do it if you want, but I don't really like it", then I could never enjoy it myself.

Even with the lack of "love feelings" from my wife, we still have sex about every 3 weeks (sometimes every week, and sometimes not for 6 weeks). She usually initiates, and once we get into it, she seems to really enjoy it. In fact, that is the ONLY time I feel her close to me now.....

All very confusing....Example: She always says I don't take enough time off work "just to be home with the family". Well, her birthday was in January. I planned to take the day off to spend with her and the kids, to go to lunch, see a movie and then to dinner together as a family. This is something I was sure would be received very well. I had been hinting that I should do that, and told her the day before that it was all set. She responded by saying that she didn't think she wanted to do that on her birthday. I asked her what she DID want to do, and she told me just to "go to work and not to worry about it". I got angry and said "fine, one of your birthday presents can be that you don't have to spend any time with me". She just gave me a dirty look and walked away. This all went down just after dinner. Later that night, I thought she had gone to bed again without acknowledging me. I was watching TV. The kids were in bed. She came in, sat in my lap and grabbed my hands and had me start touching her. That night, she (and I) had an amazing sexual experience...and she was unusually responsive (two or three "O's", and didn't seem to want to stop). It had been well over a year since she'd had that type of sexual response. The next day, she was back to just being cordial, and then we went three weeks before sex again, and then she just wanted a "quicky". This hurts more than if we had never even had that great experience in the first place.

It is all just so confusing....I feel like I'm getting jerked around, which is something I have never felt before.

Wow....I am starting to feel like I'm just complaining about issues that are minor compared to others on this site. But I am hurting about my wife slipping away, and appreciate the ability to be able to write out my feelings. It has been theraputic, and it is so nice to get responses from thoughtful caring people.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She is blaming everything on YOU so she doesn't have to be responsible.

And you are letting her.



> I guess what you are saying is that I need to set the boundries that are critical for ME, and then communicate them with her. She can then choose whether to satisfy those needs or not.


Exactly. Mainly, it is what YOU are willing to accept - a loveless marriage, just so you can see her each day? Is your whole life and soul worth that? Just to get to see her? Think about how you'd feel in 5 years. Ten years. Thirty years. You'll be a dead soul.

fwiw, when I see a woman like your wife, and I see a man like you who gets fed up and leaves...very often, 'suddenly' she realizes that you really weren't all that bad. But as it is now, she has no reason to care if you're happy or not. She still gets you taking care of her, paying for her, and not expecting anything in return. You SAY you expect, but you don't act like it.


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## cookie58 (Jan 28, 2010)

Dear Careful,

I urge you to SLOW way down with your emotional roller coaster right now....no good will come from it. If you make rash statements and decisions without really knowing what you are doing you will have disasterous results. 

You asked why I would never threaten to leave again...here's why. Because it is in fact manipulative and not in line with MY values.

Value: My marriage, my vows, my commitment, our family. 

Rule number one: Never do anything that will compromise those values...do not do anything that will further the demise of your marriage. She is an adult, if she wants out that bad then she is the one that leaves. You do not leave your home, your children you family, your marriage. (walk through the door, close it and lock it, your there to stay) wipe all other thoughts of divorce, better off alone, etc....AWAY

Rule number two: Please stop talking to her about your relationship. 

Rule number three: This list is for opinions, venting, other peoples thoughts and experiences...WE ARE NOT PROFESSIONALS. There some on this list that have been through MB and can certainly give you some direction but please don't rely on any of this until you have had a chance to
calm your emotions. 

Now having said that...you need to read the MB site, all of it or most of it. Search other avenues on the web and at the bookstore, local like your church or community resources and then decide which plan fits YOUR needs. 

This situation did not arrive suddently on your doorstep, it will not be fixed by talking, setting boundries, pushing her to do things she doesnt want to do. 

You must fix yourself first, where did you go wrong, what can you change and while doing that use proven principals that will draw her back into the relationship. 

You are going to have to decide if your willing to be hurt because you are going to have to open yourself up and you may still be rejected. But as I said before...the salvation is knowing that you have done everything you can and left nothing unfinished. If she rejects all of this and ultimately ends up wanting out then SHE will have to live with the what if, maybes and could have beens. Not you. You will be able to move on she will make the same mistakes. 

So look at this from a long term position. Not this week, not next month. You need reconnection and if she won't talk while your out to dinner, then you talk. Tell her something she doesn't know...about you. Can be a fond memory from your childhood your never told her, something you have always wanted to do but never said anything, etc....

I seriously doubt she is saying to herself...I think I will do this to him on purpose to see if he likes how it feels...and if she is would you want to mend a relationship with someone that has that kind of value. That is your anger taking over....push those thoughts away now. 

she is void of feelings, tired, feels hopeless and doesn't believe things are going to change....make her believe by showing her, not talking about it. 

Note: Spending time with the family, she has expressed this to you. Lunch, movie, dinner. While all very good is not what she is saying here...think about it, what kind of time. she's asking for one on one. playing flag football in your backyard, monopoly and popcorn in the living room, etc...you get the picture. Anyone can take you to lunch and a movie. She is starving for attention, but is angry and doesn't want to let down her guard.

Spend some time thinking about this....follow your hear and leave all anger at the door.

Wish you luck


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great post.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Turnera, Cookie, and others. Your suggestions are valuable to me. I am seeing new things about myself and my situation through your experience and advice. 

I think the first thing I am going to do is stop beating myself up over this. I have been a great husband and father. I am caring, devoted, fun, and have always been the first to stand up when my family needs me (or anything). I set a very good example for my kids (character, ethics, work, etc...) I am not a selfish person, and I have worked very hard to provide a very good life for my wife and kids. I have my faults, but they are miniscule compared to what many wifes and families have to deal with. Those things I am truly guilty of were unintentional, and a result of some inbread anxieties I have. 

I am going to concentrate on being;

Positive
Confident
Assertive
Committed

These are the things I think she would be attracted to. I have not been any of these things for a long time.

I'm going to dust off a few "toys" I have in my garage and go racing again. She used to get jealous of the time I spent with these "toys" and at the track, and worried about my safety. Maybe some of those old feelings will resurface a little. I also think it will be good to have my kids see that I have my own interests, and that I am passionate about something in life. It didn't make sense when they were younger, but they are old enough to share this with me now.

The hardest thing for me will be when my wife snubs me when I am a little but down. The hurt is hard to hide.

Another question if you don't mind. Since I knew that my wife was did not seem to have strong feelings for me anymore, I completely stopped initiating sex with her. I always waited for her to initiate. I feared rejection, and thought maybe initiating anything would just push her away further. Is there a chance I am doing the opposite? Am I just reconfirming that we are distant now? Is there a chance that she would respect me more by asking for what I want, or will I just push her away further?

I remember losing interest in my high-school girlfriend. I lost feelings for her (due to the fact that she was not loyal to me). Once the feelings started to fade, I had no interest in sex with her...and it bothered me that she still wanted it. I do not want my wife to feel the same way.....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like a great plan. As for your question, all I know is that, traditionally, women need their men to be strong. They have to be able to respect him, for BEING strong. So, I would go ahead and initiate. Be prepared for rejection, but maybe not! Maybe it would help you to see it as a physical need, rather than an emotional one.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Here is a quick update for anyone who's interested. The advice and support I received on this site was valuable. For the past few days, I focues on my plan (being Positive, Confident, Assertive and Committed). It seems to be making a difference in me, and in the responses I am getting from my wife. 

Instead of spending my weekend asking her what needed to be done around the house (typical for a Saturday morning discussion)...I got up early, cleaned up around the rec-room (not typical for me), then headed out to my shop and spent the day on some hobbies I have neglected for a few years, things that make me happy. I didn't know what to expect, but my wife soon came out to see what I was doing. I thought she might nag a little about what needed to be done, but she didn't say anything. I took the kids to McDonnalds for lunch, then spent the afternoon cleaning and organizing my shop. Felt good.

Just after dinner, I told my wife that I planned to get the kids in bed early. She said, "why, do you have something in mind?". I said, "Yes, I want to take your clothes off and kiss every inch of your body". I could see a little shock on her face. I have not said anything like that for many years. Her response was a little delayed, but then she said..."well, let's get (our son) his snack, and make sure (our daughter) gets her homework done...I don't want to be worrying about those things until late"...

She actually helped move the kids along, and seemed to be in a pretty good mood for the evening leading up to bedtime. When the kids were down, I was in the family room cleaning up. She came in and said, "it's a little later than I wanted, so let's get moving". She seemed like she enjoyed the intimacy, and even climbed on top and took control at the end. It was nice compared to much of the "hurry up" sex we have had for the last few years.

The mood was good the rest of the weekend, and I continued with my program. I am hoping that focusing on my own wants, needs and hobbies will help bring back some of the attraction and love for me. I never really ever followed her around like a lost puppy, but I am certain that I have neglected my own life trying to please everyone else which could have come accross as a weakness. After all, it would be hard to be attracted to man who really doesn't even care about himself much...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yay!


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Turnera; I want to thank you for everything. You and many others gave great advice, and it was great to listen to a few different approaches to my problem.

If you are willing, please tell me a little about why you spend time on this site. It would be nice to know where your perspective comes from.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hah.

Uh...married 30 years, spent the last 10 years waiting for D19 to graduate so I could leave, until I went to marriagebuiders.com (on the advice of a poster at another forum, who was tired of hearing me whine, lol), and learned what MY faults were, and I worked to fix them (after a lot of kicking and screaming on my part). Lo and behold, the husband I thought was a jerk turned out to be just as miserable as me, because of the way I was treating HIM! I changed, he changed, things are a lot better.

While I was there at MB, I spent a lot of time posting on other threads and giving advice, and it basically was one of the few things I do that makes me feel like I'm doing any good. Have a lot of psychology background, so when I see others' problems, I look at the psychological aspect and react from there. Such as a woman not respecting a husband who's clingy or weak; it's just human nature, predictable even. So I try to point things like that out. I don't understand electronics like my husband does, it doesn't come naturally, but this stuff does, so I figure I'd share it with others to whom this stuff doesn't come naturally, you know?

I can be pretty abrasive, I know, but I've seen a lot of people cower in fear in my time, and I know it's your number one enemy. So I try to point it out to people, to stop fearing everything, and just get out and DO something proactive to help yourself. That's true especially in cases of infidelity because, once the betrayed spouse finds out, their first instinct is to beg and plead to get their WS back; won't work - in fact, it feeds into the WS's ego-stroking, to have TWO people fighting for them, so they try to prolong it. What DOES work, and I've seen it over at MB in _dozens_ of cases, is for the BS to say 'screw it! I won't tolerate you cheating on me, I deserve better!' Most times, the WS NEVER expects that reaction and it jolts them back into reality. And if not, the BS exposes the affair to important people in the WS's life, and THAT stops the affair half the time, because suddenly it's not fun or exciting...it's embarrassing. Why keep doing that?

So...I guess I try to preach the gospel of no fear, respect yourself, don't put up with BS, and exposure. I know a lot of people here think that's too pushy, but it's your life, you know? You have just as much right to happiness as the next guy. But we're so wrapped up in fear, we fail to act on it. And I'd bet 80% of all the people who come here with a problem are failing to act, out of fear. I'm just the pushy person who pushes them to act.


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## unloved (Feb 17, 2010)

careful - so happy to hear your new changes are making a difference!


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## Willow (Jun 17, 2010)

Careful, this is the first time I have seen this thread. I am so pleased that your new approach is achieving success! 

Cookie and Turnera - your posts are amazing and I wanted you to know that the time you took writing them is much appreciated.

Cookie I am just at the start of the journey you have taken- after a very difficult few weeks H told me two weeks ago that he was leaving. He has not gone yet although he is now at the point where he will not discuss things with me. I am still very much on the rollercoaster but through a mix of instinct and learning alot from this site, I am managing better a little more each day.

Thank you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Willow, have you read His Needs Her Needs? Get it today!


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## Willow (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks for the recommendation, I'm off to hunt it down on Amazon now!


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hello Willow;

I have read your posts. I am sorry you are going through this.

I am not an expert on these type of things, but I am more than willing to share with you the things that have worked for me with my wife.

I re-read my original thread and all of the responses today. I am in a much better spot than I was then. There were a few things I did that I felt made a big difference. Maybe they would work for you?

Let me know if I can be helpful in any way.

Careful


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## Willow (Jun 17, 2010)

Thank you Careful.

I had a hell of a week last week but I am through the initial shock and devastation. The last conversation I had with my H about it was quite calm, we spoke last Friday. I did say to him that I had concerns as to whether our marriage is fixable or is beyond repair, I now think that it was a mistake to say that but what's done is done. I also asked him how actively he is thinking of leaving, he said that was what he felt at a point in time but it is not a current feeling. I asked him if he had any hope that we had a future, he said that he wouldn't be here if he didn't. 

I have really started to work on me. I've started a running programme this week which I hope will do me some good. I've been doing lots of things with the kids and I've kept really busy. He told me 2 nights ago that I seem much happier, I told him that I was doing fine but didn't develop a conversation on it.

Our sex life hit a trough a few weeks ago when he kept on rejecting me sexually. Eventually it recovered a bit but only if I initiated (and worked hard) however last night I said I was interested but left him to make a physical move, which he did. Outwith the bedroom there is no warmth or intimacy between us, and he is very critical generally.

The thing i find hardest is being around him and not letting the devastation feelings seep back. i can feel his indifference to me, his lack of respect and interest in me cuts through every interaction we have. I would love to hear any tips you have on how I keep that unsteadiness at bay.

I also am scared that I am setting myself up for a fall, remaining open to us being together when in reality I should be preparing for what feels inevitable. I feel a bit of an idiot for trying so hard for so long when all the time he must have been feeling nothing other than contempt (which he did not always manage to conceal). 

Aside from all my fears I continue to be inspired by your story and those of others here, and I have learned so much in the brief time I have discovered TAM.


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## Willow (Jun 17, 2010)

That was a long post and I don't think i answered your question. Yes please, I would very much appreciate if you could explain the things you did that made a difference!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

While you're waiting for that book, go to marriagebuilders.com and read up. You'll find most of the information there that's in the book, about not Love Busting your spouse (doing what makes him unhappy) and about meeting his Emotional Needs (what makes him happy). Pretty simple formula. Stop making him unhappy, do what makes him happy, and spend 15 hours a week together doing things that are just for the two of you - to keep him feeling like you didn't just turn into a mother and forget about being his wife (I assume you have kids; if not, still find the time).


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

Sorry to ruin the happy-fest.

My wife fell out of love with me a long time ago. Stopped enjoying sex with me a long time ago. I quit trying to fix it a long time ago. I recently realized I wasn't getting any younger and decided to do something about it. Long story short, I gave her a jolt of reality that things would probably end pretty badly if we didn't do something about it.

She tried for a little while, but just couldn't love me. She now calls me honey, and sweetie, and will give me oral sex or dry humps any time I want (the struggle for her to get sexually aroused by closing her eyes and thinking of other men is too degrading to try any longer), but she'll never enjoy it again. She'll never love me again. We're staying together for the kids and the plain fact is that neither one of us are motivated enough to get a divorce. I feel very confident she'll leave after the kids are out of the house.

You see, getting back together with someone you break up with (that's how I view what my wife did with me) is a rare thing. And even that only happens after you are apart and realize the grass may not have been greener on the other side (absence makes the heart grow fonder?). But to break up with someone and have that person around you for years? Reaffirming that behavior you've hated for so long?

I too have been on this site a while. There are a LOT of threads about spouses falling out of love (85%, easily, are wives). I have yet to read ONE where the love came back.

Good luck to you careful, but keep working on yourself and get used to being alone.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hello Willow;

Number 1: Listen to the experts on this site. They have a great deal of experience helping others. I literally read hundreds of threads, and listened carefully to smart people like Turnera (and many others). I also listened carefully to people like Cody5 who helped me prepare for the possible negative responses.

I followed their advice, and as of today my wife is much more engaged and has even began showing affection again. It has been a slow process, but I am thankful I was patient.

Please know that I am not an expert on this site, but I can tell you a few things that I did that worked well for me.

I planned my strategy. I knew I needed to begin a detachment process, start doing 180 behavior, and stop pursuing her altogether. I fully understood this strategy, and prepared myself to follow it.

But I added a step in the process; Before my detachment, I took one week and pursued my wife tactfully. I told her I loved her a lot, and told her how much I wanted to make things better between us. I did this so she knew with 100% certainty that I was still interested in doing whatever it took to make her happy in our marriage. I did this knowing that it would be in direct contrast to my actions the following week.

As expected, my wife did not respond to my pursuit. She pulled away even further, and though she is not a manipulative person, I could tell she felt she had me on the ropes. 

When the one week was up, I took a 3-day trip. This is when my transformation took place. I travel a little for my business, so the trip was normal for me. However, unlike every other trip I have ever taken, I did not call her. When I returned from my trip, my demeaner toward her was totally in contrast to the prior week. I was still polite, friendly, helpful around the house, but everything else was different. I stopped saying "I love you". When she would say "I love you", I started responding by saying, "Thanks, I like hearing that". 

Instead of staying close to her trying to talk to her, I started tactfully leaving the room when we were together. When we spoke, I did not look her in the eye as much. I started spending every minute I could with the kids, or out in my race shop (something I had given up a long time ago). Most important, I was no longer acting like a lost puppy. I came home from the trip a HAPPY, CONFIDENT, FUNLOVING and POSTIVE man. My smile came back.

Before my trip, I would cringe when my wife would snip at me. After my trip, it rolled off my shoulders. Before, I would get hurt and upset when she snuffed me. After, I would leave the room before she ever got the chance. Before, I would stand around waiting for my kiss before bed. After, I took a liking to some late night TV. Before, I would call her from work to see what she was doing. After, I had too many things going on. Before, my work was exhausting. After, my work was "challenging" but going good. Etc...etc...etc...

I did not do any of these changes in a mean way. Nor did I do them in a dramatic fashion. Just different.

Not all of my changes were selfish. I also changed how much time I spent with my kids. I began taking responsibilities around the house much more seriously (helping, picking up after myself, etc...). 

When my wife began asking me questions about these changes, I would simly answer that the way things are in our relationship are simply "not healthy for ME", and that I need to do what it takes so it doesn't continue to affect me. Then I would walk away.

I hope this doesn't sound too manipulative on my part, but I made one other change that REALLY caught her attention. I am a Coca Cola drinker. That is all I drink with meals. It has been a joke in the family that I am a Coke addict. I even collect old Coca Cola memorabilia. I love it, and I've often said (jokingly) that I would die without it. Well....upon the return from my trip, I stopped drinking it. Cold turkey. Two reasons....One, because it is not good for me. Two, because it was a sign that I am strong enough to give up those things that are "not healthy for me".

This was noticed by my wife right away, and I think it actually was one of the last straws for her. She began to beleive that I was serious about changing myself. 

Over the past couple of months, I have noticed some very positive changes in her. She says "I love you" often now, even without a similar response. She is now sleeping closer to me (instead of turning her back on me). She tries hard to engage me in conversation, and seems to be following ME around the house a little bit now. She even came out to the shop late one night (before bed) to ask me what I was doing (this is a HUGE change). The most important change for me is that she has started calling me "hun" again (instead of my name). 

I am happy that these changes are happening, but I also know that all the issues are not solved. It is going to take a lot more time, and the improvements will continue to come slowly. Cody5cautions that it may not last. Possible, but I will just think positively. Even if they don't last, I have an understanding that I control my own happiness. My wife controls hers. 

A couple days ago, my wife said "I love you". For the first time in a couple months, I said "I love you too". She hugged me, and it lasted much longer than normal. It felt good.

Sorry to ramble, but I thought this might give you some encouragement.

The point I want to make is.....follow the advice on this site. Read everything you can for encouragement and cautions. Maybe think about trying the "one week" pursuit before transition. Maybe think about what one thing your husband knows you can't live without, then give it up.

Maybe make sure your husband knows that you will do whatever it takes to make sure you are healthy and happy.

Just my (long-winded) thoughts.

Careful


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## noone (Jul 9, 2010)

careful said:


> Hello Willow;
> 
> Number 1: Listen to the experts on this site. They have a great deal of experience helping others. I literally read hundreds of threads, and listened carefully to smart people like Turnera (and many others). I also listened carefully to people like Cody5 who helped me prepare for the possible negative responses.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to hear this approached worked for you.

What happens if your spouse (in my case my wife) does not respond? What if she steps back and thinks I have moved on so there is no sense trying? What happens when you do have a discussion and all of her questions are: You never asked me to go anywhere anymore? You stopped being the first to say you love me? You were nice to me the week before and now you are not? ETC.....

Sometimes I feel she burries her head and just gets through the day with everyday stuff. How do you get her to feel like she needs to get onboard? 

To me, this is a game with a lot riding on the line..........


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Careful,
This is an incredibly positive post. I believe the detail was very beneficial. If you think about it, you did two things:
- Made yourself more attractive AND
- Less available

Some of the attractiveness was explicit - being more upbeat and confident. Some implicit - showing the self control to kick your coke habit. The less available is actually a "two for for the price of one" action. You create a shortage of "you" which makes "you" seem more valuable. It ALSO makes you seem less needy. 

I have found that keeping the right amount of emotional space in my marriage helps keep it fun and passionate. Most of the heat seems to come from:

- Emotional space +
- Being firm/assertive when she is being difficult +
- Humor +
- Playful banter/teasing that sometimes escalates into a wrestling match (I never tease her about anything sensitive)
- Doing new things that are challenging/scary

And of course I work very very hard at NOT love busting. 



careful said:


> Hello Willow;
> 
> Number 1: Listen to the experts on this site. They have a great deal of experience helping others. I literally read hundreds of threads, and listened carefully to smart people like Turnera (and many others). I also listened carefully to people like Cody5 who helped me prepare for the possible negative responses.
> 
> ...


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## Willow (Jun 17, 2010)

Careful, thank you so much for your reply, it really does encourage me that I am going in the right direction with this. 

I probably won't do the week thing to begin with as I've probably done something not disimilar over the past few weeks so firstly I feel confident that I have made my feelings about him clear to him, and secondly I think it would be inappropriate attention in his eyes. 

I like your idea about making a change that illustrates your commitment. I think that would work. 

TBH even if I do all this and our marriage fails I will still be a healthier, happier me and I think that will give me the motivation to battle it through despite his rejection and coldness. 

Mem as always you make some great points in your post which I will bear in mind.

Turnera thank you for the book recommendation. I got it today and have started reading it already.


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## careful (Feb 19, 2010)

Hello noone;

Yes, there was a lot riding on the line for me too. I had the same fears you have as I started. But for me, I was simply not going to be able to accept the way it was. I realized that I had not option but to shake the tree. 

I had tried the rational approach of just wanting to talk it through. She didn't put her heart into the discussions or the solution. I tried every other angle I could think of, and she just kind-of ignored it all. 

I came to the sad realization that she wasn't playing games, but she truly just didn't care anymore. At that point, I figured that I had nothing more to lose.

If I truly left emotionally and she just let me go, then I had my answer. If I truly left emotionally and woke her up, then I would have my answer. 

Either way, things could not have continued the way they were, and I was ready to accept her response either way.

Hope this makes sense.

Careful


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## Willow (Jun 17, 2010)

Yes I too tried the rational and logical, have tried to see if we can work together on how to 'fix' it but my H just doesn't want to know, if anything it increases his annoyance with me. 

Careful like you did before, I feel that I cannot continue with the status quo. I'm not finding the detachment process easy, there's a whole load of emotions I am having to bury (my inner brat wants to throw a tantrum, I feel a terrible betrayal to have gone through so much where I have supported him, to find that he is happy to leave me dangling on the wire..) but I really feel this is s**T or bust now.


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