# draft letter to wife: Female feedback appreciated



## ericthesane (May 10, 2013)

Dear Board (and female members in particular)

This is a First, very preliminary draft of note I am planning to leave wife on her pillow when heading out for work (I leave after her as I take son to schoolbus whenever I am not travelling) by ely/mid June. It is only a draft (making same point 2 times)

Question... is this a bomb/point of no return ? is it mean, is it effective? How would you react ?

Background.. married almost two decades. two kids (both healthy and happy); our struggles are part of everyday: no serious health problems, we are not rich, but not poor either.

Me: too careful/a bit of nice guy syndrome (working on it), not the best husband I can be, but as good as I can get it). 

I want to stay with her, but will no longer accept a sexless marriage.

Would this move you, as a woman, to positive action, or will it be the last nail in the coffin ? What am I missing in understanding the female way of thinking ? 

I know that all women are different; I know that only my wife would know, and in the final analysis, only she would correctly answer this.

I have no other women to ask. (have a few female friends and a few lovers from long ago , but cant ask them).

So, the anonymity of the web is handy.

Thanks for any input


Dear wife

This month marks the a one year anniversary when the two of us had a sexual experience with each other.

The year before that, we had a ten month interval.
In the 19 years we have been married, our ‘record’ was 18 months where we were not together, so this last year is not a record. Yes, I HAVE kept track of this since we got married.

The sarcastic and passive aggressive side of me wants to say ‘congratulations on your anniversary;

The sensitive side of me says ;I a saddened beyond expression; my longings for you, as a LOVER, are beyond what I can put in writing

The defeatist side of me says ;I would like to have this exchange by a good long heart to hear discussion. I am not able to. This is because I will loose the discussion, as I have always done. You are VERY talented as a debater, I do not stand a chance

The optimistic side of me says: She is your wife. She will listen, she will understand, she wants this to work as much as you do. Get involved.

Discussion between husband and wife should be about understanding the other, about building bridges, about ;how can I express my love for you in the manner that YOU want to be loved. It is NOT about naming a winner and a looser . However, I have been forced to realize that our talks for so many years have been about winning and loosing; I always loose. I will not engage in another discussion, and this is why I am leaving this note on your bed.

Since last June , I have made a conscious decision to avoid anything that has any sexual connotation. I have been trying very hard to not approach you, not say anything that has a sexual overtone, not to bring it up, or, to bring it to its stupid maximum; to seduce you. I have slept on the living room couch, I am careful to not go into the bathroom when you are taking a shower.

I did this to remove any pressure you may have felt over the many years that we have been together. I did this to make sure that anything that happened, would happen on your initiative, your terms, your time.

In this entire year, you have not approached me a single time, talked to me about it, given me any hints, given any expression of desire.

Rather than getting closer, we have drifted even further apart. I can;t remember us even having a good, long, close embrace this year. Our talks are about me listening to your day, conversations about the kids, and the struggles of your everyday life. There is no intimacy about us as husband and wife, about us as confidantes, as best friend, and as lovers. To me, these elements are are NOT separate, they are different parts of the same relationship. Don’t tell me that a couple that are best friends and confidantes, don’t want to have sex with each other, or at least work on bringing that about.

Therefore. by June of next year, I have decided that I WILL have had a passionate sexual experience with a woman. I am not ugly, I am not a freak, I am NOT an outlier: That I desire you as a lover is normal, natural, beautiful and the way that Nature intended it. I will NOT accept it being otherwise

YOUR decision is if YOU will be this woman.

I am not writing this letter for you to comment on, have endless discussions about, or convincing me that we are too old, that sex is something for people that are boyfriend and girlfriend and not something that marriage people are past or too busy to get worried about, that you have too many things to do, that the kitchen sink has to be spotless every evening, that the floor needs mopping that you are too tired, or too whatever.

This is simply not true. I dont accept what you may have heard. Being married for more than a few years is NOT about stop being sexual with each other. Not only do I not accept it. I reject it !

I am writing this letter to let you know that I will no longer accept being your roommate.

If you have lost your desire for me, that you no longer accept me being a sexual being… so be it…these things happen. I am no longer as youg as I was when we met and I look the part, I know. What is NOT so be it,, is for you to not tell me about it, so I can make decisions on my own.

However, as I am getting older, so are you. While you do not fit into the jeans you wore as an 19 year old, you are still the most beautiful woman in the world to me, and my fantasies, desires center around you. I want you.. often, and badly … Just as Important, I am a man, worthy of love, of affection, intimate conversations, and a woman's sexual desire.

This is not about pity sex, it is not about me thinking that you ‘own me’ sex, or me thinking that it is your duty. I do not want pity sex. I have had enough of it during the year previous.
This is about you WANTING this relationship. This is about you needing it, and needing it from ME, rather than an experience in your mind involving a fictitious character in a sado masochistic book series or a move star or an ideal from a Jane Austin movie: 

I cannot compete with a Colin Firth walking across a fog filled meadow during morning sunrise in 18th century England, or a billionaire hunk in a novel. it is about you wanting to make love to a living, breathing human being that is your husband with all his flaws, shortcomings and problems.

I know that I am far from perfect , not understanding and meeting your needs. Then again neither are you. A loving real life relationship is to be together and taking care of each other, to be the resting place when the world outside is full of difficult bosses, challenging colleagues, worries about finances, friends and family that pass away or all the big and small frustrations of everyday life.
Either, we WORK on this together starting next week, or, I will move out of this house, and out of your life, June 1st, 2014; where to, I do know, but I will absolutely look outside the US. I am getting restless and want to move about again.
This is about me being the best husband I can be for you, while you fully realize that I am not, and cannot be a character in a novel. I am real, I am me, I am struggling though life.
I am asking, not for our kids, or the house that we have, or the memories we share. I am asking for myself.
I will not come home this week. I will sleep in a motel, or on the beach, or whenever. I will not answer any calls. Use this time to make a decision. Text me when you HAVE made it.
If you decide for me to stay, I will expect that we WORK on this; together. I will expect that I am more important than a clean kitchen sink, than your novels and movies, than any of your other commitments. I will only accept that the kids are more important to you than me, and that means a clear danger to them, NOT about them cleaning their room, or whatever else needs fixing there and then.
If you say you have decided to invite me back, and your later actions are not consistant with this, I will leave. I am sick and tired and I am no longer going to accept this.

It is your call……


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

First off... Loose =/= lose. The knot can come loose. You lose the hockey game.

Second. You're giving her another year? The whole thing seems wishy-washy and meek. But to give her another year to continue her bad behaviour just caps that.

Speaking as a guy...

C


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

eric, I don't know how your wife will react to this. I can feel your pain and perhaps she will too. I also don't know your history, except what you have written here, and I don't know if what I am going to say aplies to your situation but it may, here goes...

Women need an emotional connection to their man. This is what makes them desire him. Much of the time this connection gets lost, or watered down. Many men do not realize how important this is for a woman.

Men need sex to feel that emotional connection. In turn, many women don't realize how important this is to him.

When a woman has a lower sex drive than a man, which is probably more the norm, the man usually does most of the initiating. The problem is, when the man is always wanting sex and the woman really does not understand that he is wanting to love her and be loved by her, she just feels as if he just wants sex all the time. 

She probably is not getting her emotional needs met because you don't understand and therefor to her the whole relationship has turned into how much sex you want. 

One of the reasons this happens, in my opinion, is because of the way it is comunicated by the man. For instance, in your letter you keep refering to how much sex you two have not had and that you are ready to end the relationship over it. I understand where you are coming from, but as a wife, I don't want to hear about how much sex you are not getting. I want to hear how much you love me and can't express it, can't feel it, can't give it, because as a man, being able to express this through physical contact, that intimate part of a relationship is how you are made and is as basic and neccesarry for you as my need for emotional connections. It is that intimate part if the relationship that sets your relationship apart from all other ones you have. It is that that you share with only each other. It is that that you need because you love her and that is how you feel loved by her.

I think because men are always talking about sex, that women don't understand that they are talking about love. To some women, sex and love can be sepparated and this happens because of the verbage used and the fact that their needs, in many instances aren't met and they start to feel as if they are just a sex object because that is all they ever hear and they just don't get it.

I feel as if I am starting to ramble now but hope this gives you food for thought.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm a woman... I like the letter. I think you've written it in a way that isn't too blunt. You've stated the background, how the lack of intimacy makes you feel, how you still find her attractive, how you yearn for her, and you've stated what you'll do if there's no change to the status quo.

The section you need to tighten up is the consequence. Are you really giving her until next June to give you a meaningful sex life? That's what it seemed like unless I read the letter wrong. I would give a much shorter deadline if I were you.

It's possible you two aren't meeting each other's emotional needs (His Needs/Her Needs book by Dr. Harley) or speaking each other's Love Languages (5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman), however, there's no excuse to live the way you two have. I would say you've written it with love and you're also not beating around the bush.


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## barcafan (Jul 25, 2012)

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't think writing a letter will work. You need to work on being attractive and writing a letter pleading is exactly the opposite of that. Most women I have encountered do not like to give...they want you to take whatever it is you want. When you try to negotiate for sex you have lost already. Work on yourself and take what's yours, she won't mind. Read MMSL and seriously work on yourself. This letter might get you her sympathy but she won't want to f**k your brains out after reading it. My 2 cents. Wish you the best.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wow, lot of pain and longing in the letter. I like that you've stated you will not accept a sexless marriage, no matter her reasoning. I like almost everything about it. I would suggest you NOT give it a year. I would suggest you paint the minimum number of times each week you expect to have sex. Paint the picture of the minimum amount of effort and loving responses you expect from her. tell her if she pushes it, you'll rate her enthusiasm and if she averages below standard... The point I'm making is you have to be more specific in what you are willing to accept and you have to be able to provide feedback fairly quickly.

Frankly, I think you should just tell her since she sees herself as too old for a hot sex life (and that is soooo wrong!) you'll find a hot sex life with someone else. If she's not okay with that, she needs to do XYZ. 

I don't know how people put up with such a lousy sex life year after year after year... She's torn you down, worn you out and made you feel like there's something wrong with you or with what you want and she wrong on both counts.

Everyone deserves a hot sex life!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with JustHer about changing the letter a bit to talk about about love and intimacy.

In the beginning of the letter you give the marriage a year. By the end you say that you are going somewhere now and waiting for her to let you know her decision. Is it a year? Or is it now? A year is way too long.

What I get from the things you say in the letter is that neither of you are meeting the other's needs and probably have not been for a long time. I second the book suggestions of "His Needs, Her Needs" and "5 Love Languages".

What have you done, besides asking her to change (have sex) have you done in the past to try to fix your marriage?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

The fact that you cannot talk to your W face to face about this issue is a problem in itself. It sounds like you can't communicate with each other without it becoming a point scoring competition (you mention your W's debating skills), and this is an issue all on its own. Resentment isn't a good breeding ground for emotional/physical intimacy...

Have you tried MC? It might help, because it doesn't sound as though this is just about sex, OP, but the lack of sex perhaps a symptom of lack of emotional intimacy.

If you decide to give your W that letter, I would heed JustHer and Elegirl's advice and have it include something about love and intimacy. 

(You might also fix up the couple of typos in there.)


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

I think the letter is too long. You have a few paragraph where you get your point across succinctly but the rest is rambling and whining. You should state the problem, how you want to solve it and what will happen if she ignore this. As a intro just a short paragraph about how you feel about her. 

I do think this letter is good initially but you going to have to figure out something for communication going forward. I would see my H as weak if he couldn't address me face to face. 

A year is WAY too long. What's your thinking on that? 

Oh and by the way I hope you really prepared to leave. If she that much of a debater she might call your bluff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

First off I have to ask what the hell it it you want form her. If you could narrow it down and pick one thing, what would that be? Do you want comfort, do you want attention, do you want romance, do you want sex? I don't think you even know because you started off wanting her to turn her from a flatmate into a friend, and a friend into a lover, but then it's almost like you were trying hostage negotiation and shaming tactics to get pity sex. 

You say pity sex is the last thing you want, but you're words here were far from being a "nice guy" and were just downright demanding. If you consider yourself a "nice guy" you better check your definition, because your actions show you've been a pushover in the past and you've resigned yourself to asexuality practically punishing yourself for needing sex until *you've reached the boiling point and you're ready to punish her for not being a damn mind reader.* 

How can she know what's on your mind if you don't tell her? How do you think she's going to feel reading this note when you've put on a fake smile and pretended everything was fine for years instead of talking to her about your problem. I understand your misery, but this misery was your doing. Consider yourself 2x4'd!

Now I'm going to try to help you!

You want your wife to be romantic with you again and turn to you instead of these romance novels right? You want to meet her on her on the same page and have sex again? Well that can't happen unless you've spent the time making friends with her first and taking it slow. Yes you have to take it slow with your wife too. Just because you married her it doesn't mean you're going to be able to seduce her the same way you did 20 years ago. 

So far I'm seeing a lot of what you want, but I'll bet you can't tell me one thing you know about her you've learned over the last few weeks. If you could just talk with her and spend one day not thinking about getting in her pants like a horny little school boy who's never touched a woman. If you could just focus on what she says instead of your own selfish needs I'll bet you anything she will tell you exactly what she needs to hear from you. Women never fail to do this either! You may till think she's just talks to hear herself talk, but if you listen carefully she will tell you everything you need to know about herself, and how to seduce her. 

You say you're no competition with these romantic movies and erotic books she reads, but have you ever read one of these or sat through a few movies with a non objective outlook? These men are essentially all assertive enough without being d!ckheads, they're tough and don't look for anyone to make them happy or beg for sex, they're cynical and mysterious so much so that the heroine has to teach them to love and find out more about them, they're exciting and lead exciting lives, and they're outgoing and adventurous. Part of what I see in all of this is *you resigned yourself to the role of what you thought a husband should be and stopped enjoying yourself.* If you just got half of this right and started a hobby that got you out of the house and made you wife wonder if others were trying to take you away from her. She's probably screw you to protect her relationship. 

Another thing is women have sex for different reasons than me. Sure they have sex because it just feels good too, but there are other reasons as well. To protect their lover from sleeping with someone else, sort of drain him and put their sent on him. As an obligation, which is not what you want unless half-assed pity sex is your thing. To target their potential lover, or sleep with him to make him lover her. To have kids, which you've already done.... And with some people it's a psychological thing to not have sex after kids are there, but I've only heard this with mentally different people. That's a nice way of saying Aspergers and PD, but those stories it was one kid and done immediately. 

You can write this letter if it make you feel better, but it's not going to accomplish a damn thing you want, because you do not understand what's going on yourself. You'd actually be better of holding hands and talking with her for a few minutes every night than trying to for your way down her throat and making her feel like a married prostitute obligated to give it up to you on demand. Just talk with her and keep everything small. *"Small talk"* and *"Happy talk"*. Nothing about what you want from her sexually. 

You're starting over here, so you don't want to do anything you wouldn't do on a first date, which probably isn't helping you so I'll just tell you. You ask her about herself, you make lots of eye contact, you repeat back the important parts of what she says or anything you need confirmation on, you force yourself to pay attention not because she's not interesting but because what she says is just as important as what you would say, you change the topics when necessary and keep the happy vibe going, you tell her at least once that you think she is beautiful while looking deep in her eyes, and you take it no further than a hug. YOU DON'T TRY TO KISS HER, AND YOU DO NOT TRY SEDUCE HER. 

You've got at least a week or rekindling the romance first before you're ready to hold her close enough and try for a kiss. And depending on how long it's been you may need to take it slow and be friends with her first before she feels attracted enough to you to want to have sex. Remember you're not playing by your rules because that would be rape, so you're playing by her rules and a woman's psychology. She will need to feel comfortable enough with you to trust her feeling with you before she feels comfortable enough with you to have the kind of sex that makes you feel romantically bonded with her. She could just as easily have sex with you to keep you from leaving, but that might make you feel even worse because she'll just be going through the motions with no emotion behind it. 

Let me just wrap things up by saying, you've got a lot of work ahead of you if you want your wife back. She may not be gone but she might as well be emotionally. And you're not off the hook either mister, you're partially to blame for this eroding marriage. The thing you could do for yourself is to get your self in IC if you can afford it or else find yourself a really good book on divorce and one on overcoming that pushy nice guy side of yours. I would recommend "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Divorce Remedy", but I've since found better books than NMMNG out there. And while you're at it, you might as well address any problems you had with your own childhood because those issues are usually a contributing factor to the problems you have in your relationships.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Up front, I will note the letter is extremely unlikely to work. I think women and men know well what the opposite sex expects from a relationship. I am no genius, but I have long known women need connection to want sex. So I provide opportunities for that connection, and (importantly) don't pretend to feel that connection to get my needs met (sex).

IMO, the main issues in your marriage are (1) your W is seriously LD and (2) she feels refusing you is "safe" (consequence-free). Going that long without sex (with you right there) is not typical SD. And, those sex-free periods seem to have no consequence for her. It seems like you tiptoe around; you even worry if you should not give her the letter as it may drive her away.

You need to understand you do have value to your W (companionship, finances, parenting). If you did not, she likely would be gone already. Your approach needs to be one of strength, stemming from that knowledge.

You need to cut the letter way down and change the timetable for action on her part. You are a good husband and do enough to deserve a good sex life (which is a need for you). She has a responsibility as your wife that she has failed to meet. You do value the relationship and are choosing to reach out to save the marriage rather than move on (successfully). But, this situation is intolerable and requires immediate action from her.

Make a sincere offer of MC. Do listen to what she says, but don't assume to you need to caretake or soothe her. Her responsibility is to bring a capable self, willing and able to meet your need, to the marriage. It's fine for her to push to provide an acceptable sex life. It's not your job to tiptoe around her LD or other baggage. Your sex need is reasonable and appropriate.

If she balks at taking action, get out. Understand that, from her view, life is about to get worse. Right now she is getting you for nothing. You (if you do this correctly) are signalling clearly that dynamic is gone forever. While you are (correctly) seeing this as an attempt to improve the relationship, she (in her present mindset) may see this as a "lose/lose". So, you have to be resolute and brace yourself for nastiness (in the short term) as she adjusts to the changed dynamic.

You also have to be ready for her to decide that she'd rather move on than meet your need (unfortunately, it does happen). So, not only do you need to be emotionally strong, but you need to be practical as well. Be sensitive to the possibility of her outwardly appearing to work on the marriage she is looking to get over on you financially. I would even see a good attorney and pay a small retainer to introduce yourself, get him or her familiar with your sitch, and be ready to act if needed.

Above all, know you will be fine no matter whether you repair this marriage or move on (and act like it). There is no way your wife will believe you are serious until you demonstrate (and not just say) that the dynamic has changed.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> DTO said:- I think women and men know well what the opposite sex expects from a relationship. I am no genius, but I have long known women need connection to want sex. So I provide opportunities for that connection, and (importantly) don't pretend to feel that connection to get my needs met (sex).


This is absolutely true. The lack of any meaningful communication surrounding this issue indicates a total disconnect between the OP and his W. And the more I think about it, whilst the letter itself isn't a bad idea, it is going to highlight the emotional disconnect even further.


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## ericthesane (May 10, 2013)

I am the OP.
First of all: 

Thank you very much to all for chiming inn and providing advice. As I have no RL sounding boards this is a fantastic tool for 
support and feedback.

It seems to me that the overall consensus is that a letter would not be the right approach.

*Pbear:* wishy washy and meek. I think that view is shared by several of the posters. 

*Just Her*. Thank you. This is absolutely food for thought. MB states that there are two things women need in this respect: An emotional connection and and anticipation of enjoyment. It would also seem that sexual attraction is needed. 
Words DO matter. How things are presented DO matter. I understand that. To say ‘I desire sex, vs. ‘I desire an intimate connection with you; I want to love you, and that intimacy and love is expressed though sex. 

*CoffeAmore*: The full year is about the process. It is not so that I argue that I expect sex to happen immediately. What I do want to start happen immediately is the process. That we together explore what needs to happen, what I can do, what I need to change about my behavior to me so that she feel connected. Infactiation is easy, but her ‘falling in love with me again’ is what it is about I suppose. One the one hand, it is difficult to quantify, and a hard deadline like this may be very counter productive, but at the same time, I am not going to spend the rest of my life as a celibate.

*Barcafan*. You also think that a letter is a bad idea. As one of several, I am then thinking that a letter, no matter how worded, would be counterproductive. No, I don’t want symphathy… I want progress.
Anon…. thanks… however, scheduling sex, number of times a week and whatnot, will make things more difficult. It smacks a bit of pressuring and dutysex. I am willing to forego sex for a while, what I am not willing to accept is not bringing the issue on the table, not being willing do discuss matters along the line of ‘What can I do, as a husband to make you want me’, and have productive discussions that is not about winning or losing the argument.

*Satya*: Cynical.. yeah… that is where I have gotten. I have been working on myself. During the last year, I have started working out more (100 miles a week communting to work on bike when I am not travelling for work), I have taken up and old hobby and have acted more independently. 

*Ele*. Yes, I am quite familiar with MB methods. I have not had much success with it. I do recognize that this has more to do with me executing it correctly than the methods and principles themselves. It is also because of this that I posted in this forum, rather than in MB, since the letter flies in the face of much of what MB argues for. However, if you try the same thing over and over, not getting anywhere, you need to change your approach.

We did do a ‘His need, her need’ questionnaire about 5 years ago. My wife's top needs were/are Conversation, Domestic Support, Honesty and Openness and Financial Support. 
I do believe conversation is a need that I meet, we talk often. (Or rather, I listen), I always make it a point to ask how her day went, how she feels, and do my very best to pay attention. 
Obviously, I am not doing it RIGHT however.

Domestic Support as a # 2 need is somewhat unusual for a woman. I certainly need to do a better job, I admit, but I do try very hard to do my share of that work.

Honesty and openness: I am not doing a good job. I am in a situation where if I were to be honest and open, almost anything I say will be seen as a LoveBuster.

Financial Support: Not doing a good job as I like: we are not wealthy. Early on in the relationship I had a job that paid very well: it allowed us to do weekend trips that involved airplanes , ate out frequently, (never having to look at the right column of the menu). We are not poor either, but the last few years have been difficult.

I have tried to introduce her to MB above the questionnaire, but she thinks its bunk. 

As is very apparent, she is disconnected from me.

And yes.. the lack of sex is a symptom of this, as much as a cause

*Cosmos: *Yes, That I can not talk to her is a key symptom, just as the lack of sex is.
My idea of a letter was that you can make an argument without being interrupted, or be caught up in a discussion that will be counterproductive

*Nsweet*: Thank YOU for your frank and straight feedback.
Do note that she is NOT unaware of this. It is only during this last year, that I decided to stop pestering/asking/approaching her about this. I did this to see if That would be a better approach. I wanted to give a year so that SHE would approach this. Prior to this last year, I have expressed an interest in working with her to work on our relationship (the marriagebuiderss approach, ‘selling’ her on the idea of her reading ‘his needs, her needs’ etc.
This was obviously not successful.

I am not thinking about getting in her pants every day… I did so 15 years ago, but as the years have passed, it becomes less of an issue, but now and again, I do want to be there.

Quite frankly, I cannot compete with the characters in these novels. I do not lead an existing life anymore. My life is unfortunately about routine… taking son to schoolbus, getting up at same time, going to the same work, paying the same bills every month…..

That being said, that does not mean that I cannot make myself more attractive, and more active and working on myself. Within the confines of everyday, I have spent considerably more time to myself, going to places myself, not waiting for her, or going to places that she won’t like but that I like.

I have not tried to kiss her, seduce her, hold her hand, hug her for a full year. We have hugged on a few occasions, but that is because SHE has initiated it. She has not initiated anything else.

You have given me a lot of food for thought. Yes, I am a ‘Nice Guy’ … am working on it.

*DTO*: Again… as others have said as well: Letter wont work.

Thanks again for input. Letter is out; I need to rethink and come up with something else.


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

I agree with most of the other posters with respect to the letter (too long, too whiny). Shorten it up, and be sure to express your desire to connect emotionally with her through physical intimacy.

Instead of waiting a year, I would give her an ultimatum of going with you to see a marriage counselor/sex therapist ASAP (unless you have done this before and it didn't work). Insist that she go with you, and if she refuses, be prepared to walk. Let her know you are serious about counseling, and that not going is not an option.

I told my wife a few years ago that our relationship was on life support. We could either go seek treatment together, or I was simply going to pull the plug. I think that got her attention, and forced her to think about our marriage differently.

We ended up in MC/ST for almost a year, we both worked hard on the relationship, and things are going great for us today.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

ericthesane said:


> Dear wife
> 
> This month marks the a one year anniversary when the two of us had a sexual experience with each other.
> 
> ...


Good, but long.




ericthesane said:


> Since last June , I have made a conscious decision to avoid anything that has any sexual connotation. I have been trying very hard to not approach you, not say anything that has a sexual overtone, not to bring it up, or, to bring it to its stupid maximum; to seduce you. I have slept on the living room couch, I am careful to not go into the bathroom when you are taking a shower.
> 
> I did this to remove any pressure you may have felt over the many years that we have been together. I did this to make sure that anything that happened, would happen on your initiative, your terms, your time.
> 
> ...


Not good...Elminate all of this. Also, don't ever put your sexuality away in the closet any more... That is not helpful to what you are trying to achive. Your wife facing you as a sexual man is crucial to solving your problem





ericthesane said:


> Rather than getting closer, we have drifted even further apart. I can;t remember us even having a good, long, close embrace this year. Our talks are about me listening to your day, conversations about the kids, and the struggles of your everyday life. There is no intimacy about us as husband and wife, about us as confidantes, as best friend, and as lovers. To me, these elements are are NOT separate, they are different parts of the same relationship. Don’t tell me that a couple that are best friends and confidantes, don’t want to have sex with each other, or at least work on bringing that about.
> 
> Therefore. by June of next year, I have decided that I WILL have had a passionate sexual experience with a woman. I am not ugly, I am not a freak, I am NOT an outlier: That I desire you as a lover is normal, natural, beautiful and the way that Nature intended it. I will NOT accept it being otherwise
> 
> ……


I would not give her until June of next year. I would take the date of of it altogether here.





ericthesane said:


> YOUR decision is if YOU will be this woman.
> ……


PERFECT!!!!!




ericthesane said:


> I am not writing this letter for you to comment on, have endless discussions about, or convincing me that we are too old, that sex is something for people that are boyfriend and girlfriend and not something that marriage people are past or too busy to get worried about, that you have too many things to do, that the kitchen sink has to be spotless every evening, that the floor needs mopping that you are too tired, or too whatever.
> 
> This is simply not true. I dont accept what you may have heard. Being married for more than a few years is NOT about stop being sexual with each other. Not only do I not accept it. I reject it !
> 
> ...


Good.



ericthesane said:


> If you have lost your desire for me, that you no longer accept me being a sexual being… so be it…these things happen. I am no longer as youg as I was when we met and I look the part, I know. What is NOT so be it,, is for you to not tell me about it, so I can make decisions on my own.
> 
> ……


Bad... Why put the answer into her head.



ericthesane said:


> However, as I am getting older, so are you. While you do not fit into the jeans you wore as an 19 year old, you are still the most beautiful woman in the world to me, and my fantasies, desires center around you. I want you.. often, and badly … Just as Important, I am a man, worthy of love, of affection, intimate conversations, and a woman's sexual desire.
> 
> ……


Take out the first sentence.



ericthesane said:


> This is not about pity sex, it is not about me thinking that you ‘own me’ sex, or me thinking that it is your duty. I do not want pity sex. I have had enough of it during the year previous.
> This is about you WANTING this relationship. This is about you needing it, and needing it from ME, rather than an experience in your mind involving a fictitious character in a sado masochistic book series or a move star or an ideal from a Jane Austin movie:
> ……


This is a fatal flaw. She will not see how she can deliver the passionate sex you want here. She will give up and let you divorce her. Don't hit her with this yet. Get her to agree to work on it... Once you have a wife that is willing to work on her sexuality, that's when you drive this agenda of passion.



ericthesane said:


> I cannot compete with a Colin Firth walking across a fog filled meadow during morning sunrise in 18th century England, or a billionaire hunk in a novel. it is about you wanting to make love to a living, breathing human being that is your husband with all his flaws, shortcomings and problems.
> 
> I know that I am far from perfect , not understanding and meeting your needs. Then again neither are you. A loving real life relationship is to be together and taking care of each other, to be the resting place when the world outside is full of difficult bosses, challenging colleagues, worries about finances, friends and family that pass away or all the big and small frustrations of everyday life.
> ……


If you admit that you are not meeting her needs, then you should really not be giving her this letter at all. She will not meet your needs until you meet hers. Now, if you have met her needs in the past and are no longer motiviated to meet her needs, you can say that. You should also say that from this point forward you are going to focus on meeting her needs.



ericthesane said:


> Either, we WORK on this together starting next week, or, I will move out of this house, and out of your life, June 1st, 2014; where to, I do know, but I will absolutely look outside the US. I am getting restless and want to move about again.
> This is about me being the best husband I can be for you, while you fully realize that I am not, and cannot be a character in a novel. I am real, I am me, I am struggling though life.
> I am asking, not for our kids, or the house that we have, or the memories we share. I am asking for myself.
> 
> ……


I would take out the date of June 1st 2014. This is way too long. Just keep the date off of it. This should the state of your marraige from now on forever. IF your wife is not meeting your needs, you are on your way out.



ericthesane said:


> I will not come home this week. I will sleep in a motel, or on the beach, or whenever. I will not answer any calls. Use this time to make a decision. Text me when you HAVE made it.
> If you decide for me to stay, I will expect that we WORK on this; together. I will expect that I am more important than a clean kitchen sink, than your novels and movies, than any of your other commitments. I will only accept that the kids are more important to you than me, and that means a clear danger to them, NOT about them cleaning their room, or whatever else needs fixing there and then.
> If you say you have decided to invite me back, and your later actions are not consistant with this, I will leave. I am sick and tired and I am no longer going to accept this.
> 
> It is your call……


Don't leave for a week. Don't leave your house. The best thing you can do is ask her to make this choice, give it some time, look into her heart.

Then in a day or 2, walk up to her and look into her eyes and embrace her. Kiss her. Her reaction will be your answer. Act according to your letter then... You cannot waver on this.


Another general comment, what about what you are saying or doing outside of this letter is making your wife WANT to have sex with you? You have to bring somethign good to the table in order to get a positive result.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

ericthesane said:


> I am the OP.
> 
> 
> We did do a ‘His need, her need’ questionnaire about 5 years ago. My wife's top needs were/are Conversation, Domestic Support, Honesty and Openness and Financial Support.
> ...


I'm going to disagree with you that communication is not an issue for you guys. You might talk to her, but clearly you are not effectively communicating if you have to draft a letter about the lack of intimacy in your relationship.

I'm also concerned about your admitted lack of honesty. Few women want to be intimate with a man they KNOW is not honest-for whatever reason. They just can't feel safe enough in the relationship to allow the type of vulnerability that is required in real intimacy.

If your W is all into romance novels, she hasn't lost the need for romance and intimacy, but there is a clear disconnect.


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## ericthesane (May 10, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> I'm going to disagree with you that communication is not an issue for you guys. You might talk to her, but clearly you are not effectively communicating if you have to draft a letter about the lack of intimacy in your relationship.


Agree. that is why I said I am not doing it RIGHT.... One thing we do together when time allows is make dinner and that usually takes half an hour and this is when she talks about her day.. and I listen. Other conversations are typically about the kids. I also bring up subjects, but careful to not bring up anything that I know will upset her (ie why I have not brought up the more intimate parts of our relationship). She does not bring them up either. Yes, I am aware that this is a symptom.

So, I am aware of her need, and I a meet it, but I dont meet it right.



> I'm also concerned about your admitted lack of honesty. Few women want to be intimate with a man they KNOW is not honest-for whatever reason. They just can't feel safe enough in the relationship to allow the type of vulnerability that is required in real intimacy.


Agree. I have not been honest this last year: I have not brought up our issues. I have bottled it up, put on a brave face. In MB speak, the situation is that I am not able to be honest and open by way of a respectful request. They are perceived / comes across as LoveBusters and as whining.



> If your W is all into romance novels, she hasn't lost the need for romance and intimacy, but there is a clear disconnect.


Yes, that is clear as well. My challenge is to become more like the characters in these novels and movies. Then again, I cannot be like them, I can only be me. I can improve, I can become more exiting, but, it is impossible for me to be anything like them.

Thanks for your comments. It is a learning process for sure


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm glad you've reconsidered the letter.

I think letters are a good venting exercise...they let you 'see' everything you 'feel' on a piece of paper.

I know you're not giving it to her (I hope)...so I'm not suggesting edits you should actually make in your letter---just thought processes you should consider 'editing' in your mind.

Two points :

1. *In writing or in life never say "i know I can't compete with Colin Firth".* 

Don't think like that...that's not attractive. What you think is: I DONT compete with Colin Firth. I have no wish to be him. And no wish to be with any woman who would want me to be him. I am enough. (very hard for any of us to 'really' feel that inside...but that's the attitude you want to cultivate...or learn fake really well).

*2. Obey Nature or Nature denies you*


You say you can never win a debate with her. 

You are certainly not the first man to say that. Women have greater verbal fluidity...they talk more...they can think of more biting things to say more quickly...in general, I also think they're willing to be 'meaner' too. 

Plus, somehow the topic of sex is harder for a lot men to argue...idk...probably due to the puritan roots of the country--so that even when guys want and believe that they deserve sex, they can still be made to feel guilty for that desire.

So...admittedly, lot men were not endowed with the gifts of verbal communication they're wives were. But Nature didn't leave you empty handed here. 

No, Nature _punishes _you when you try to match a woman's talent with a poorer version of the same talent...instead of being masculine.

The Masculine attitude is: You're my wife. I'm a good husband. I want sex. 

Done. No need to justify ANYTHING. Every time you do attempt to rationalize your desires you're implicitly acknowledging that they need to be validated in the first place. 

They don't.

BUT...you do have to actually be willing to walk away from the marriage if she refuses to acquiesce...if you stay and thereby emasculate yourself...thereby demonstrate that you don't actually mean anything you say...Nature won't reward you 

(i.e. Your wife (or that woman you would've met had you actually been brave enough to end the marriage) can't be attracted to you.

And you will remain sexless.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Nsweet said:


> First off I have to ask what the hell it it you want form her. If you could narrow it down and pick one thing, what would that be? Do you want comfort, do you want attention, do you want romance, do you want sex? I don't think you even know because you started off wanting her to turn her from a flatmate into a friend, and a friend into a lover, but then it's almost like you were trying hostage negotiation and shaming tactics to get pity sex.
> 
> You say pity sex is the last thing you want, but you're words here were far from being a "nice guy" and were just downright demanding. If you consider yourself a "nice guy" you better check your definition, because your actions show you've been a pushover in the past and you've resigned yourself to asexuality practically punishing yourself for needing sex until *you've reached the boiling point and you're ready to punish her for not being a damn mind reader.*
> 
> ...


-1

Completely ignores the fact that she takes from him daily by being inside the home. It's highly unlikely that they just co-exist. It's much more likely that she sees value in him, or she would be gone already.

He should not have to start over and seduce her like a first date. The key (again) is to know that neither partner should have to strive for sex. It should be considered earned through being an ordinary good and attentive partner.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

OK DTO, you completely ignore the fact that out of the one thing you don't like, there's some pretty good advice in there. And you completely ignored that fact that this isn't your thread and OP generally liked what I as well as others had to say. 

Now rephrase everything you wrote without quoting my post and sh!tting all over it with your douch bag rating system. Do your own work instead of criticizing others or have respect for other people's work and the OP's choice to pick and choose what HE WANTS TO DO as he pleases. 

Jerk


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## belleoftheball (May 16, 2013)

I think the letter states your intent and is not that harsh, but is also blunt and to the point. However I am like everyone else and am truly wondering here if you are going to give her a whole year to make changes. Even as a woman myself, I think that is too long. I would shorten the deadline up some. If she truly cares, then there will be improvements and changes on her part. It may be small changes at first, but she will make them if she truly cares and wants to keep the marriage.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm jumping in here a bit late, but I agree with much of the advice given.

I wanted to say that the letter is too long and as others have said, it's very important to be more direct, ie. I would like this to happen, and if it does not, I will do this.

However, I'm also thinking that a letter doesn't really serve a purpose and no matter how you write it, it will come across as 'weak and whiny' as another poster said, I believe.

Maybe you can express what you mean in the letter through non-verbal acts. If your behavior changes to reflect this new determination, I think it is extremely likely that she will notice. Things will then change... not sure in which direction, but you will get a reaction.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I am the type that is MOVED by the deep vulnerable feelings expressed in a letter....but many women are NOT...they may see it as weak, too Nice Guy....emasculating...who the heck knows...I can not relate to be THAT Cold & judgemental attitude towards another's feelings, so I can't comment on that..

So this is purely a case by case basis...*do you KNOW THY WIFE is the question?? * Though given her history and attitude in this...it doesn't look promising... seems you have already agreed to lay down the letter -given the responses here. 

Though nothing wrong with spelling out your specific *BOUNDARIES* ..if you felt led in a letter at some point.....just hold true to it..as you mean it this time, you won't be left on the back burner... 

I want to share with you my thoughts on those who WITHHOLD sex and their *intentions* in that - taken from another thread >>



Sawney Beane said:


> Simply Amorous said in another thread, regarding the pain of sexual refusal:
> "...They should infact, allow their spouse freedom -if they know they are hurting them deeply. It will never be right in my view of marraige ...or at least a happy fullfilled one..."
> 
> I thought about this, based on reading here and what friends who are regularly refused tell me.
> ...


Where would you say your wife of 19 yrs falls in this??

I can not grasp how anyone could stay in a relationship like this, for any reason under the sun including the love of their children...I think this should have been written 18 yrs ago...and you are much too generous in giving her a whole year to find her libido for you again....I understand you are giving it TIME to "fall in love again" as pity sex is worthless (I agree)...but there is an urgency here...after all these wasted years. 

If this has caused you *Depression* (how could it not?) ..*Resentment* (how has a wall to the sky NOT been erected?)... a sexless marriage is no marriage at all... I think of this article , maybe you can share this with her, written by another (a woman in fact) to HEAR your pain... This is What a Sexless Marriage Feels Like - And yet -

Don't know the answers here..other than it will likely take *Marriage counseling* to open up ALL that has been buried, these habits you have both come to live with, this stubborn disconnection...to open up the Vulnerable...deal with the raging resentment (even if it has been downplayed) to HEAR each other once again...and find *hope* amidst the ashes of what should have been for the last 19 yrs.


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## whitecat (May 17, 2013)

I wonder if the problem with your wife is a medical one? Perhaps she just needs some hormonal pills. You mention heroes in novels and movies. Sounds like she has an active internal life involving romantic figures. So, maybe she needs the romance in order to get tuned in to the sexual aspect.

Your letter is a good start to opening up this issue. I would perhaps edit out the ultimatum at the end and finish it with something like, "I want this to work out and I hope you want that also" or, "I'm at the end of my rope, let's do something to make this work". 

There is a lot of long-entrenched dynamics here. A lot of resentment, a lot of blame, defensiveness, denial, rationalizations. All that needs to be torn down and if it's so high and so impenetrable, you both will probably need professional help to get it torn down, in order to rebuild. Good luck. I feel for both of you. Sounds like there is still love and respect in your marriage.


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## ericthesane (May 10, 2013)

Again, thanks for all the input advice and perspectives.

I seem to sense a pattern in that male posters are far more negative to a letter than what the women are. Now, most of those who do comment on the letter says it needs to be shortened, and in need of heavy rework. I think it is clear that a letter, if used at, all is not something to be used INSTEAD of action, but in addition to it.

The art will be to find the right combination and right time.
One big relief that I do have going through these discussions is the realization that while I am very worried about how this will be perceived by my wife, I see that the downside really is limited. It can’t get a whole lot worse come to think of it.

I would again thank all posters, and comment on a few things posted since last time, 



IndiaInk said:


> In writing or in life never say "i know I can't compete with Colin Firth". Don't think like that...that's not attractive. What you think is: I DONT compete with Colin Firth. I have no wish to be him. And no wish to be with any woman who would want me to be him. I am enough. (very hard for any of us to 'really' feel that inside...but that's the attitude you want to cultivate...or learn fake really well).


Think Colin Firth as the lead in in one of the many dramatizations of 'Pride and Prejudice'. The last scene: my wife’s absolute favorite scene by her own statements.

Quite frankly, a loathe these novels; not because of the romance, but rather about the idea that there is nobility involved in idling about, that a gentleman does not work, that one’s birth defines what one is, about the notions of ‘one’s betters’ etc.

That being said, it is romantic, but it is not sexual. Nicolas Spark, another favorite of hers.; Romantic yes, but quite tame on the sex.

I skimmed though ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’ yesterday (another favorite of hers), it is very different…  SM/BDSM, but no romance as such; the dichotomy I cannot explain.



SimplyAmorous said:


> *do you KNOW THY WIFE is the question?? *


No, I do not know her apparently; Had I known her, I would not have had all these many issues: I would have had good long open and intimate conversations with her to solve problems. Had I known her, I would have been happy with her, or, left her a long time ago (depending of what I would know).

Of course, my knowledge is clouded by my resentment as well.

I think that the cause is somewhere close to halfway between 2 and 3. Keep in mind, she IS very aware of it. It is for those that read my posting and 2nd reply only this last year that I have NOT talked about it.

A lot is buried. I do not want to dwell too much on the lost years. They will not come back. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> I can not grasp how anyone could stay in a relationship like this, for any reason under the sun including the love of their children


It is because of the children that I AM doing this, What will be a last honest effort (and that is also one more reason for me working on a 1 year plan rather than something shorter) 

A few weeks ago, my 9 year old son asked me why I sleep on the couch.. and ‘why don’t you sleep in mums bed?’. I faked it saying that it was because I snore or somesuch. How could I tell him I am not welcome there? I absolutely hated it.
I am not faking it anymore, and as much as I dislike leaving, I dislike staying in these circumstances even more.



SimplyAmorous said:


> a sexless marriage is no marriage at all... I think of this article , maybe you can share this with her, written by another (a woman in fact) to HEAR your pain


I have read this article so many times.. it still brings a tear to my eye, how eloquent, how beautifully sad.

My infatuation with the Author was immediate… my longing for her, simply based on her mind, utterly powerful.



Cora28 said:


> …My H and I havent been intimate for 19 months and I´m starting to really suffer (Im getting crushes on other men)


I am so sorry to hear that. One thing I have learned over the years about sexless marriages are the many women that complain about this….. I will, for the life of me, and no matter how old I get… NEVER understand how this is possible.


And yes, I can absolutely the crush. Should a woman show a keen interest in me these days, .. on the beach, in a bookstore, no matter what, I would not say no.

I do not know where in the world you are (my assumption is somewhere in the US, but, assumptions are just that) so the evening may be over already. I hope the wine was enjoyable, and the conversation with your husband positive.



Cora28 said:


> One thing stood out to me in your letter: You say you avoid her when she´s taking a shower, etc, which will only reinforce the fact she may not feel you find her attractive. Also, you have threatened to sleep with another woman, although you have given her a time frame, which won´t help her self-esteem either


The reason for me avoiding her when she is taking a shower had to do with giving her space… with placing the initiative with her. It was for me to find out. I have the answer. 

She knows I find her attractive. This has not changed over the years, and I tell her as often as I sense it will not be taken the wrong way.

I want to make it very clear to her that this is serious. Part of my anger was in the first draft that I posted (but that is why there are editors; weed out the worst in a first draft.



whitecat said:


> I wonder if the problem with your wife is a medical one? Perhaps she just needs some hormonal pills. You mention heroes in novels and movies. Sounds like she has an active internal life involving romantic figures. So, maybe she needs the romance in order to get tuned in to the sexual aspect.


I cannot rule out medical reasons, even though I think it is emotional. However One thing that I wanted to achieve with the letter was for her to take it seriously enough to where she WOULD consider it, that she will go to a doctor.. just to check out this part as well.

She has always been into romance... we have had no lack of romantic experiences… but, they became less and less frequent, because I did not like it. Romance (Say… a weekend down in the Florida keys.. spending the day on the ocean… watching a sunset while preparing a fresh catch together… looking at the sunset.. and then: no sex. Romance did not lead to sex… or rather, far more correctly: Romance had no physical part to it. To me, a romantic weekend includes sex; steaming, heavy, sweaty, all- encompassing sex, and then… repeat. 



whitecat said:


> Good luck. I feel for both of you. Sounds like there is still love and respect in your marriage.


Thank you whitecat.. and thanks to all that have posted and provided a lot of great insights. I still love her. There is no respect however, and by that I mean Self-respect. I don’t like what this has done to me, I don’t like ME anymore. If she cannot love me, I will leave. Time will tell.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> If this has caused you *Depression* (how could it not?) ..*Resentment* (how has a wall to the sky NOT been erected?)... a sexless marriage is no marriage at all... I think of this article , maybe you can share this with her, written by another (a woman in fact) to HEAR your pain... This is What a Sexless Marriage Feels Like - And yet -



Thankfully I don't have her marriage, but wow, what a powerfully written essay. She expresses so eloquently the pain of the rejected partner in a sexless marriage.


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## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

I tend to agree with Nsweet. You as a husband need to understand how demanding a wives world is. If your wife works for a living, makes family meals..takes care of the kids, etc., along with feeling a little old around the edges..maybe it's YOU that needs to initiate sex.

I'm sure by the time she gets to bed she may be damned tired.

Do YOU ever take on her tasks all day and not just go to work..come home..eat meals..watch some tv..and then go to bed??

Maybe spend a day in her shoes and when the the two of you get to the bedroom..realize how tired YOU would be.

What I might suggest for the two of you is a date night. Take her out and treat her like a queen. Send her flowers with a note telling her how much you appreciate all she does.

I know in your letter you told her you thought she was beautiful..but do you tell her that now and then? Sometimes even on a daily basis it's nice to receive a test from your hubby saying something like, "Hello beautiful and love of my life..how is your day going?"

I guarantee that these sorts of things will improve your sex life IMMENSELY as I truly believer right now is that she doesn't feel appreciated..she's tired at the end of the day..and probably falls into bed after getting the kids off to school..making meals..helping the kids with their homework, etc. 

Take it upon yourself to make a little more effot by again..complimenting her..sending her flowers now and then..helping her out with the kids..etc as all of these things are actually foreplay to a woman.

I guarantee your sex life will improve immensely!!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ericthesane said:


> Thank you whitecat.. and thanks to all that have posted and provided a lot of great insights. I still love her. There is no respect however, and by that I mean Self-respect. I don’t like what this has done to me, I don’t like ME anymore. *
> 
> If she cannot love me, I will leave. * Time will tell.


Please DO ...and take no guilt for it......life is too short.

I WAS a child of divorce, one could even say a casualty... WHY.... my Mother wasn't attracted to my father enough, and he got sick & tired of her attitude...and fighting over sex......so he fell in love with her best friend...(my Mom was relieved - not the normal story I realize) so they divorced ....I remember those fights... the Divorce... a blessing... 

Although my Step Mother was NEVER my favorite person ...he couldn't have been matched with a woman who loved him more so...so the last 36 yrs ...he has been a fulfilled happy Man...for THIS, I am so very thankful for HER.... 

Don't think your children don't FEEL the tension in the air, in the home, this will cloud their view or marriage for themselves someday.. .there are ramifications either way...

Let your children learn from your mistakes.. I know I learned from my Parents, to NEVER jump into marriage - (they married too young- she was naive , married for the wrong reasons, wasn't even in love with my father)..it was a train wreck, they had nothing in common.



> *memyselfandi said*: I tend to agree with Nsweet. You as a husband need to understand how demanding a wives world is. If your wife works for a living, makes family meals..takes care of the kids, etc., along with feeling a little old around the edges..maybe it's YOU that needs to initiate sex.
> 
> I'm sure by the time she gets to bed she may be damned tired.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of guarantees memyselfandi ... in the face of pure rejection , sometimes as long as 19 months at a time... can you relate to this -or what it could do to someone inside? 

And to the Romance.... reread >>


> *ericthesane said*: She has always been into romance... *we have had no lack of romantic experiences*… but, they became less and less frequent, because I did not like it. Romance (*Say… a weekend down in the Florida keys.. spending the day on the ocean… watching a sunset while preparing a fresh catch together… looking at the sunset.. and then: no sex. Romance did not lead to sex… or rather, far more correctly: Romance had no physical part to it. To me, a romantic weekend includes sex; steaming, heavy, sweaty, all- encompassing sex, and then… repeat*.


I have nothing but sympathy for this poster, for hanging on like he has, for the love of his children, in the face of despair ....holding out hope... and you come here & defend her... ask if he was walked in HER shoes... my head is spinning here. 

How he still has any shred of Love for this woman or this marriage at all...is a miracle to me! I think he is far too loving...the sacrifice he has made, what it has cost him... unspeakable.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ericthesane said:


> *DTO*: Again… as others have said as well: Letter wont work.
> 
> Thanks again for input. Letter is out; I need to rethink and come up with something else.


I think I was kinda unclear earlier.

I don't know about the others, but my intended takeaway was not that you should abandon the idea of writing a letter. I think a letter is a good idea, given that you have difficulty expressing yourself verbally. What I am saying is that your letter is more of a rant, not the clear call for action that it should be. As such, it undermines your position and makes you look weak.

You should know (and act like): sex is appropriately important to you, you have specific needs, and she is responsible (as your only legitimate partner) for meeting that need. As she is utterly failing, you together need to get to the bottom of this, as the situation is now intolerable; otherwise, you have better things to do than waste your effort on her.

To that end, the letter should be her wake-up call. She probably knows you're very unhappy. The letter confirms this, advises her of the immediacy of the issue (the status quo is gone forever), and reaffirms intent to partner with her on this.

Nothing is guaranteed to fix your sex life. But, changing your attitude and approach to life overall is the only thing that can do so. She has to believe you are serious about this, and then figure out whether she's going to meet your need or move on.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Sounds way too much like an ultimatum ~ which rarely ever works. You are both partners in this relationship, and before ultimatums are ever issued or even entertained, you have to try to jointly seek solutions to your problem with your wife.

Verbally tell her what's on your mind and then suggest that the two of you go the MC route. Simply do not beat around the bush here!

And it's definitely not letter time yet; far from it! ~ It's time for gentle and loving confrontation with her. And you may come to find that her answers may actually come to surprise you!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Nsweet said:


> OK DTO, you completely ignore the fact that out of the one thing you don't like, there's some pretty good advice in there. And you completely ignored that fact that this isn't your thread and OP generally liked what I as well as others had to say.
> 
> Now rephrase everything you wrote without quoting my post and sh!tting all over it with your douch bag rating system. Do your own work instead of criticizing others or have respect for other people's work and the OP's choice to pick and choose what HE WANTS TO DO as he pleases.
> 
> Jerk


You are taking this way too personally. I was pressed for time when I wrote this. I did not intend any personal affront. And, I did not call you names. If you will look at my history, I consistently put lots of effort into these posts.

That being said, there is not much good about your advice. Continuing to woo and seduce her is the wrong approach; it is essentially rewarding her for bad behavior. If it works at all, it will do so only temporarily. Gis wife will set the bar for sex increasingly higher. He will have to do more and more to get her to be with him, as she becomes accustomed to the extra attention and sees it as an entitlement. Eventually, he will be at the point where her standards exceed his capacity to give. What will he do then?

For sure he needs to be good to her. But there are limits. As I've said before, neither spouse should have to strive for sex. It should be considered earned simply by being an ordinary good spouse (don't cheat, support the household, etc.). Too many people think sex is not essential and thus not subject to the normal give and take in marriage. In reality, if you are not providing your spouse a satisfying sex life you are not treating him or her well - period - and there had better be a good reason. "I don't feel like it" is insufficient.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ericthesane said:


> The defeatist side of me says ;I would like to have this exchange by a good long heart to hear discussion. I am not able to. This is because I will loose the discussion, as I have always done. You are VERY talented as a debater, I do not stand a chance


Is this the reason you were resorting to a letter? 

I don't for the life of me know how such a 'debate' could be lost. People don't general debate objective fact like the sum of 2 and 2 or the color of the sky. If the lack of anything remotely resembling a regular sex life is a deal breaker, then that's quite beyond question and debate. 

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to be flippant and recognize that fixing the problem is many times harder than simply stating it.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

i haven't read the responses other than your initial post. Except for some typos and grammar and repeating a few things twice, as you noted, I thought it was a great, moving, touching letter. If this isn't a wake-up call to your wife, I don't know what is.

I think the letter is a good idea, because it doesn't seem like you'll be able to express all that in a conversation without being shut down or put on the defensive or it changing direction.

Hopefully your wife will see that is it her that you want. There are a few other similar threads here, but the opposite - "I took him for granted," and another one where the husband left a similar themed note to his wife when he left town on a business trip, and now she woke up and is wondering if it's too late. Hopefully your wife will be receptive to your cry for help.

I think that one year ultimatum is waaaay too long. You will know right away if she wants to turn it around and make the marriage work or if she doesn't. You don't need another year of the same old same old. ALthough in your head, you'll need more time to move on and move out, you really won't need the year to know where she stands.

Her response will either be, "this is who I am like it or leave it," or "I can't believe how blind I've been. I want a second chance to make this work."

good luck.


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## totallywarped (Jan 26, 2013)

I agree with others it's too long & u come off whiny and women do not take ultimatums well, some of us get defensive and with you hinting at another woman she's definitely going to be defensive. If I read that I'd probably respond with "well it's obvious I don't make u happy so find someone who will". I think a better approach would be a letter telling her how lonely/rejected u are, how much you miss her touch and seeing/touching her beautiful body. How you miss having an emotional connection with her. I would tell her being in a sex-less marriage (aka room mates) isn't working for you and u refuse to live the rest of your life that way. While you do not desire pity sex you are interested in her making an effort. Would she consider seeing a dr to find out why her libido is so low? Is she willing to go to a MC with you? Go out on date nights to reconnect? Show u more affection (kissing, holding hands? etc) I would not set a move out date unless you are willing to make it 3mths. A year is so far off I wouldn't even be concerned with it or take you seriously.


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

I do like PARTS of the letter.. Agree that it should be shortened and a gree that it should be used in combination with some action. Not instead of action.

The main part of the letter that would bother me, is where you tell her you're going to have sex, either with or without her. And that it's up to her if you have sex with her or another woman. That is telling her that you already have it in your heart to cheat on her.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Chelle D said:


> I do like PARTS of the letter.. Agree that it should be shortened and a gree that it should be used in combination with some action. Not instead of action.
> 
> Now.. I was really moved by parts of the letter... talking about past etc, what you want in the future, etc.
> 
> ...


I completely believe the emotional reaction you say you would have to your letter, but it may be helpful to understand the "why". It's been said on TAM that such a reaction is like a spoiled child not wanting to play with a toy yet not allowing anyone else to play with it either. You apparent feel differently about this, and it would be nice to understand your mindset.

FWIW, I would not include that part either. It's not that he's not justified in feeling that way. Rather, there's nothing good that can come out of it. It's better for him just to say that he will move on and take his chances as a single guy.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

I just would like to add that if you feel you have not been heard (as I have many times in my marriage) a letter is the PERFECT way to get out ALL you want to say and force yourself to be heard... also, one of the things to add to your process, would be that in future conversations you ensure you get to say all you need to say... literally say, will you let me finish, and don't be afraid to walk away from a discussion without immediate resolution, but without letting her win them all either.


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## ericthesane (May 10, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Is this the reason you were resorting to a letter?
> 
> I don't for the life of me know how such a 'debate' could be lost. People don't general debate objective fact like the sum of 2 and 2 or the color of the sky. If the lack of anything remotely resembling a regular sex life is a deal breaker, then that's quite beyond question and debate.


You don’t know how this debate could be lost ? hmm, I can see all manner of ways it could be lost The answer:


IsGirl3 said:


> I think the letter is a good idea, because it doesn't seem like you'll be able to express all that in a conversation without being shut down or put on the defensive or it changing direction.


Ladies and Gentlemen: we have a winner. This is why the idea of the letter came up in the first place; I am not as expressive, as forceful, as able to get across as sincere, yet compellingly demanding as I want to be to where I can express what I want to express without the discussion turning around.


IsGirl3 said:


> ……
> 
> I think that one year ultimatum is waaaay too long. You will know right away if she wants to turn it around and make the marriage work or if she doesn't.


What length of ultimatum is appropriate then ? A call for action, no matter the type, needs some time frame. Keep in mind, this is not a one year for action, this is one year where we work together, and if it does not work out, I am out…. My ‘leave date’, if you will. We have been married for almost 20 years, and while many of them have been sad, I own it 1 year I think.


Chelle D said:


> I do like PARTS of the letter…..
> 
> ... There was one part that I would be COMPLETELY turned off if my husband gave me such a letter. It was the part where you said you WILL have sex with a woman in the next year and it is her choice if it is with her or with another woman. …
> 
> …I would have taken it that You were going to cheat one way or another and that it was going to be taken as "permission granted" because the wife was forewarned about it.


Interesting, a previous poster marked that particular idea as ‘PERFECT’. The differences in perspectives from men and women (and yes, there are exceptions) seems clearer.

I am in a state now were any woman’s interest would trigger mine. The intent of me saying it is that I will no longer accept this; The way it comes across IS important. I want to say that I will go elsewhere. However, I will do so after moving out of her house/life etc.
I would, like DTO, also like to understand the mindset that would cause this reaction. 

I am sure that this topic has been beaten to death in these forums already, but the mindset of ‘We are married, I am not interested in having sex with you, your sexuality is not my business, BUT, don’t even think about a lover, or cheat on me’…..or, maybe I am overplaying this.


livelaughlovenow said:


> I just would like to add that if you feel you have not been heard (as I have many times in my marriage) a letter is the PERFECT way to get out ALL you want to say and force yourself to be heard


Thank you for that insight. I am again thinking that a letter does have value and merit. (again, the gender difference in terms of reactions here is becoming even clearer.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I hope you come back and update on us on what happens after you give the letter to her. I wish you the best.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

I can totally feel your pain from your letter. I also know first hand what that feels like...but

IMHO, you will never get what you want with this tact. you can not reason her panties off. You can not extract love from a woman with logic. If this letter works, I would wager on you only getting a couple of months of pity sex and then you will be back asking about draft 2.

You letter touches on what you will do (leave her) if she cannot provide a minimal amount of intimacy in your relationship. For maximum effectiveness, this tact must be demonstrated not talked about. Have you run the MAP (I havent read all the responses). From my own limited experience, actually working on other options for intimacy or giving her the very strong suggestion that you have other options would do so much more for you than this letter (if she has any desire to be in a relationship with you that is more than married for finances/kid only). I know this not politically correct at all, and can run counter to a lasting marriage. 

Bottom line and in general, comfort does not equal attraction. niceness does not equal sexy, and asking for sex is not strong. 

I think you got to lead this thing with actions, and that might include leading yourself right out of it. 

But WTF do I know...my marriage is certainly not anything to model and I am not a female

Good luck. Please come back and post to see how it goes down.

Edit:
Have you tried or thought about just saying (in person or letter) to her something as simple as "I will no longer accept a sexless, passionless marriage?" To me that is a much stronger approach


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## whitecat (May 17, 2013)

Hi Eric,

I read your draft letter again, this time I tried to see myself in your situation. I pretended that it was my husband who wrote that letter and I pretended that we had drifted apart and I didn't want sex. I read the letter slowly and thoroughly. It made me cry. I thought, wow, he put so much thought in this letter. So much thought and energy. He's in so much pain. It made my heart hurt. Even the ultimatum and time limit made me think, he's serious but at the same time he has hope and he doesn't want to rush me.

I sense a lot of fear in you. You want so much to let her know what you are feeling and what you are thinking but you are afraid that it will blow up in your face and it will reach a place of no return. My feeling is that you need to jump off that cliff and show her your vulnerabilities. Yes, I know that's a scary place. She might laugh and scorn you. She might reject you outright. She might get angry and throw you out. But.. if there's even a tiny little bit of love left for you in her heart, she may soften and see you, finally see the real you, the yearning, the desperation, the sadness and she will want to reach out to you.

This is your letter. It is a reflection of your innermost self. It is you baring your soul to your wife. It is you at your most vulnerable. I say, go for it. Take the plunge. Show it to her. I wish you courage and I hope your wife will see what a good man she has.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ericthesane said:


> You don’t know how this debate could be lost ? hmm, I can see all manner of ways it could be lost The answer:





IsGirl3 said:


> I think the letter is a good idea, because it doesn't seem like you'll be able to express all that in a conversation without being shut down or put on the defensive or it changing direction.


With respect, you're not talking about debate at all. Humans have clashed verbally since long before recorded history, but unfortunately, most of that has taken the form of rather low quality argument where the winner is ultimately the person who can cram the most semantic fallacies into a single sentence. 

If you let fact be treated as subjective perception, then I agree; You probably will come out on the short end of the argument that ensues. 

If you're bound and determined to write a letter, I would go with something more along the lines of Trenton's suggestion above. It's short, sweet and does not equivocate at all.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I love the letter. It's honest and sincere, which I think is all you should ever ask of anyone as far as communication in a marriage goes. I think you should give it to her, though I do think you should reword the part about a year. Maybe change it to acknowledge that change won't necessarily happen overnight and that you're willing to give the marriage a year to see improvement. It's fair to inform her that you have a timeline in mind, but you don't want to give her permission to ignore you for another year.

Good luck. I hope it works for you guys. Also, consider sending your wife here, and we'll help her sort out the issues on her end.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

Re: the 1 year ultimatum which I think is too long - yes - I agree with you - after 20 years of marriage, one year isn't long to wait in the big scheme of things. However, if unfortunately, your wife does not change, you will not be coming to that realization in 364 days. You will probably know if your wife is going to fight for the marriage or not, probably almost immediately - like that day or a few days after getting the letter.

Either she'll want to make it work and you'll see a marked change in her, or she'll call your bluff and not change a thing, or she'll somehow turn this around, make it all your fault, and be in a continual state of anger at you. I guess then you'll have to decide how long you need to get out.

But, if you want to put something concrete in writing, I'd say 3 months. I don't think there is any doubt that in that timeframe, you'll know exactly where you stand.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Disclaimer: I haven't read all of the replies - responding to the original post.

I like the letter.

If your needs are to have a satisfying sex life with your wife & she refuses to do that, then by all means separate. Years w/o sex is a prison sentence for a crime you did not commit.

and this is coming from a woman who has zero sexual desire but has frequent sex with her husband


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

here's the thread of the man who left his wife a letter and it was a real wake-up call for her. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...e-lost-my-husband-forever-there-any-hope.html.

hopefully your letter will do the same for your wife.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I am a woman. I thought your letter was touching, even in its raw state.

Everyone is going to view it through their own lens.

My lens is colored by the fact that I have a "nice guy" husband who is incredibly afraid of conflict, does not put his emotions inti words or bluntly tell me what is on his mind. I do my best to pay attention to his subtle cues that something is bothering him, but if I didn't have my radar on at all times, it would be easy to assume he had no troubles and just go on living my life as I pleased with little thought on how my behavior affected him.

I say this because some of the things you've said lead me to believe you may be similar to my husband in that way. You admitted you've gone a whole year allowing her to effectively ignore you, waiting for her to come aroun. It may be unbelievable but it could be possible that she has no idea that you harbor this much hurt ans resentment , especially if you've let the issue go quiet for a year.

I would love to receive a letter from mt husband with his honest, raw emotion. I push for him to share with me, and he rarely does. Many times I am left to guess at his feelings or assume he simply doesn't care.

This is where the fender difference can become seemingly insurmountable. Women train from a young age to converse, if you really watch a group of women interact there is a.natural give and take that happens, usually spurred by one woman sharing her feelings and then the other automatically chimes in to relate and give feedback. What I interpret, again through my own lens, of your wife sharing her feelings with you - the dinner conversations you mentioned - is her attempt ti connect with you. And by your own admission you said you listen, but do nit engage in responding due to your fear of crossing some kind of boundary with her - which could be real or imagined. You may be effectively shutting.her down without realizing it.

Make sense?

If I were yoe your withdrawals uncaring or shutting me out, not "taking the pressure off", as you say. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## plasmasunn (Apr 3, 2013)

I, as a woman, am a HUGE fan of emotional letters. I am awful about confronting my husband when I'm hurting, mainly because no matter what he has done or what has caused my unhappiness, I do not want to hurt him in the process. That just brings more strife and frustration. If I start talking about something that bothers me, I get all flustered when I see he's upset, can never remember my points even if they're perfectly valid and just end up flailing. 

When I have an overwhelming problem with many facets, I write a letter to my husband. When we get time alone, I tell him "There are some things on my mind I really need to discuss with you. I wrote you this letter...may I read it to you so you can hear it in my voice? When I'm done, you can look at it, re-read it, mull it over, think on it for as long as you need and when you're ready to discuss it, we can."

I think your letter is a good idea, eric. Might I suggest reading it to her instead of leaving it for her. Problem with the written word is that the reader can easily interpret a different tone that the author intends. 

I agree with the following sentiments from other posters:
*Shorten your time frame of leaving
*Talk more about the connection/intimacy you desire from her instead of just the act of sex
*Edit the stuff that is demeaning to both you and her (particularly reminding her that she doesn't fit in her teenage jeans...that's just not helpful!) 

Also, add more about what YOU are willing to do in this situation. Keep the tone full of "this is about US...not just ME" and maybe add some reasons/details about how this lacking intimacy is affecting your daily life. 

Good luck to you! i think this is a great way for you to open the door.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

As a wife, I knew what it was like to never "be HEARD". I hate that for you. And I wrote a few letters.... some had some effect, some had none, and I swear the last one I wrote was the catalyst for him walking out. That's ok tho... at least I finally knew which end is up! 

Do whatever you have to do!

My letters were for two purposes. One, just to be HEARD because as you say... verbal "discussions" were just for him to WIN. And two, to make sure I was giving it (the marriage) my best shot, trying to get thru! 

It's worth a shot if you think it is! I had no idea with any given letter/note/conversation which way it would go..... if anything would sink in, or if I was talking to a wall. I offered marriage counseling.... but he finally said he didn't have a problem, only I did. So I went by myself.... TOTALLY worth it! 

More to think about.


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## Elisenowlin (Apr 14, 2013)

Hello!

First of all, that letter was SO well written! I have been married for only a year and I hope my husband learns to speak to me with such respect. 

A year? In my opinion and past experiences, a lot of husbands wouldn't wait even close to that long? We wonder why divorce rates are so high? 

Anyways... I think this letter says what you need it to, in a respectful, not yet giving up, warning kind of a way. To me, that's all I'd need. I do agree though that you should maybe leave out the waiting a year part. Unless this is the first she's heard about you being upset about this issue which I doubt. That could make her angry.

GOOD LUCK! And good for you for being such a GOOD HUSBAND & keeping your vows so sacred and real like they are intended,

Please fill us in when you can!


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## healing and restoration (May 21, 2013)

don't do it!!! you can heal your marriAGE. EMAIL ME!!!


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## maynsx (May 21, 2013)

The knot can come loose. You lose the hockey game.


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

I would not send the letter, yet. Check out the Married Man Sex Life site. You are the poster guy for the MAP. Basically, you are not having sex with your wife because she is not attracted to you. The MAP shows you the way to improve yourself in all the ways that will make her regain her attraction to you. Once your sex rank is higher than hers, and if she has not come around, you can give her the ultimatum. If that does not work, you will be in the best shape of your life to leave the marriage and find someone more compatible.


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## Whiner (May 22, 2013)

Just in case you are still looking for feedback --the fact that you avoided any mention of sex for a year really confuses me and might confuse her. When my husband and I get in a "bad groove" I see his behavior of "giving me space" as avoidance and proof that we really have no relationship. If you didn't show desire for a year, did she know that this was a sacrifice for her? Or might she consider it neglect?


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## ericthesane (May 10, 2013)

Whiner said:


> Just in case you are still looking for feedback --the fact that you avoided any mention of sex for a year really confuses me and might confuse her. When my husband and I get in a "bad groove" I see his behavior of "giving me space" as avoidance and proof that we really have no relationship. If you didn't show desire for a year, did she know that this was a sacrifice for her? Or might she consider it neglect?


Whiner. Thank you. Absolutely agree that this is an option.

Now, I have yet to rework the letter - I am also planning to use it more as a talking point basis, by telling her, but the time must be right. - We just spent a long weekend with the kids on a 'mini vacation' and with all the stuff she has to deal with work wise, she is in 100% preparation mode of things that needs to be done today.

In all of this, and as I have said before, I recognize that the lack of physical intimacy is a symptom more than anything else. A symptom of a lack of emotional intimacy in other parts of the marriage. 'Fix the other parts, and sex will come about as a result of that' may apply.

We had an argument this morning, starting with me trying to give her a wake up hug: (we have not hugged for the last year); she responded angrily stating 'whats this ? you are acting weird. What is this lovey dovey all of a sudden after this long ??? What changed ?, alluding to me sleeping on the couch for a year. I did this to give her room, to not pressure her, to indicate anything sexual, to not play into the 'all you think about is sex' routine.

As I have said before, her verbal/debating skills being far superior to my own, her strong personality, and our personal dynamics means that I fail to express myself in a manner that works.

I said 'thank you for sharing your thoughts', and left to spend the day in the office. I was arguing with self about continuing, but the day started bad, and I feared that continuing could only turn for the worse. 

Obviously, what I am doing is not working. I am working on myself however, to prepare for what seems to be getting closer and closer to a point of no return.


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## Whiner (May 22, 2013)

I think with your willingness to try you guys really have a chance. It does seem like she misconstrues your efforts. Maybe a general "how do feel about our relationship?" Would work. Maybe you just don't know how (and if) she needs you to express yourself.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

OP you and I are in very similar circumstances... I'm further ahead in the process.

The only thing letters are good for is to collect your thoughts so you don't sound like a moron "when" the time comes to have a discussion. By the time my wife and I talk I have all the verbiage I want right there because of previous letters she never received.

Find out what she resents
Make her admit there is an issue that needs resolved in a timely fashion
Hold her accountable

In time she will respond... she is the one to leave if she can't handle the heat... not you. Take the high road always and never accept the unacceptable. Make a sexless marriage unsustainable.

Change the dynamics. Remain positive.


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## Flygirl (Apr 9, 2013)

I was just like your wife. Sex or even the thought of it annoyed me. It irritated me that he would ask for it or expect it. When I'd go along with it just to shut him up, I hated how awkward and forced it felt. We were having sex once a month at the most and sometimes going two months without doing it at all for the past 8 years. We sleep in different bedrooms. I think it's because I had so much resentment built up because he didn't pay any attention to me unless he wanted to have sex. He's a workaholic and I spend most of my time alone. I don't feel like a priority in his life and haven't been in a long time. I've never been one to show much affection and that relates back to my childhood. It's difficult for me. 
I recently discovered he was having an emotional affair with an employee of his. He updated his iphone and the settings changed. This caused all his texts to start showing up on my ipad and that's how I found out. I had no clue and because I trusted him completely, I never checked up on him. I was devestated even though I deserve it because I had an emotional affair 4 years ago. I never thought anything could ever hurt this bad. My husband is sorry and admits that he hasn't been there for me in a long time. He asked for a chance to make it up to me. While his EA took it's toll on my confidence and destroyed my trust, I suddenly can't keep my hands off of him. We have sex almost daily now and it's been like this for a month. I don't know if it's because he is trying so hard to make things better or if it was hearing him admit that he hasn't been there for me in years or if because another girl entered the picture. Emotionally I'm a mess and one minute I love him to death and the next minute I'm crying and angry at him. But...I still want to have sex...and a lot..I even initiate it now. I can't figure out what's come over me. It's helped the healing and the marriage in general. Who would have thought this is what it would take to make me want to have sex again?? 
I like your letter. I can see your pain in it. I just wonder if you aren't missing something that your wife needs from you. I can see how important sex is in a marriage now that I can feel the connection through it. I didn't before...it was just sex. I hope you and your wife can find a way to work though this. It won't be easy. I feel like we take one step forward only to take two back. I get so discouraged and sometimes want to give up but my husband keeps encouraging me to hang in there. Good luck!!


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