# Any advice?



## Florida_rosbif

Hi everyone, I’ve been lurking on this site for a about a month now, reading the forums and sucking up pearls of wisdom to help me through my current problems. It now feels like time for me to lay out what's been happening to me and to see what you people think of it looking from the outside.

I’m British, but lived for many years in France with my French wife. Just over 3 years ago we moved the whole family (3 kids + dog) to Miami, to follow my wife’s career. I left my full time work behind, and since coming here I have only worked occasionally as a consultant, flying abroad each time for one week missions. Unfortunately my industry doesn’t exist in Miami.

Florida is not my idea of fun, too damned hot and flat, but to my wife this seemed like paradise. As a result of not working full time and being a house husband in a place I don’t like I’ve been unhappy, falling back on being a good dad to my kids, cooking, walking the dogs, golf, etc.

Last time I was away for work in Paris, my wife cheated on me with a french man in our group of friends, someone struggling with his own marital problems. He’s full of energy but largely uneducated, an aggressive drunk who I have come close to fighting with on a couple of occasions when he outstayed his welcome at my house and had to be physically ejected.

This was the start of a 4 month affair, with all the lies that are required to hide such carryings on. About 6 weeks ago my wife suddenly confronted me and said that she wanted me to move out, saying that my unhappiness in Miami was dragging her down. I was very upset, and after a sleepless night going over it in my mind I told her that I couldn’t do that, my responsibility is to my children and that I would keep soldiering on making the best of it. So began discussions on how we could make our marriage work, with her telling me that she’d been unhappy with me for years and that I needed to be more fun to be with. She was also feeling pressure from work, suddenly being the primary wage earner after 20 years of that being my role.

She started seeing a therapist, and after a few days lost in a dark hole I decided to man up, change my life and make the best of Miami. As I said to her, this place is very far removed from my dream life, but going away to have my dream life without my family wouldn’t work either. I was very positive for a week, taking her out and sharing more with her, trying to rebuild our rapport. Then the bombshell – the other man had told his wife what had been going on, apparently in an attempt to force my wife to make a decision and leave me. She then felt obliged to tell me about the affair that they had been having. Coming from 23 years together and 100% trust, needless to say I was devastated. The usual BS (having read plenty of stories now on TAM) followed, it was my fault that she’d had an affair, she had no regrets because it had been so good, etc.

I have never experienced such pain, physical and mental. Impossible to sleep, woken at 2 in the morning by unwanted porn films in my head of her with him, so tired after a few weeks of that you become an automaton, loss of appetite and so on. The strange thing was the galloping libido, I wanted her physically all the time, part of the requirement to confirm that I was still a man. Needless to say, she found this difficult too as she was completely elsewhere in her head and has always had a lower sex drive than me in any case.

We agreed to work on our marriage and I started seeing a therapist too. One of my preconditions was that she cut all links to the other man, not allowed to see him physically and no further telephone contact, to which she agreed. All our family (except the kids) were made aware of what had happened and the difficulties that we were trying to overcome. I also made contact with the other man’s wife and we compared notes, tying down the timeline of their affair.

Over the next month we talked a lot, sometimes making love, and generally waiting for time to help me get over my broken heart. My therapist helped me to cope, explaining to me that the affair was not my fault, that that had been her bad decision, but that I was partly responsible for problems in the relationship prior to it, completely logical to me.

For reasons that I won't go into our eldest child (17 yo) is aware of what his mother did. He's found it hard to cope with, but has been really supportive of me, his anguished father!

So just over a week ago I texted the other man’s wife to say that I hoped she was doing ok. She immediately called me, saying that she was preparing divorce appears and had been checking phone records. These showed that my wife was back in contact with the other man, long phone calls, text messages, etc. All the pain came flooding back and I confronted my wife saying that she had been supposed to cut all links and that she had been lying to me again when I periodically asked if there had been any contact. She said that it was innocent, just seeing how the other one was coping and so on. I told her that this was just the emotional affair continuing and that she she was playing me for a fool, the physical affair would end up starting again and that she had to make a decision. 

Boom! She announced separation and divorce and suddenly the relationship between us was cold as hell, the ice witch and the bitter husband. Her best friend was visiting when all this happened, so I asked her what she thought. Should I be fighting to save us, was there still hope? She said no, your wife’s decision is made, just accept it and organise your life as necessary. So another couple of days of being a black hole. Cold, logistics discussions with my wife lead to the conclusion that the least damaging for the kids would be to rent an apartment and alternate weeks away from the family, so they could stay in the family home. We would then sell the family home, she would buy a smaller place for her and the kids and I would take my money to do what I want.

After the two dark days I suddenly perked up, feeling that I could see the way out. For me alternate weeks in an apartment would mean going on fishing trips, freedom to go to bars as a single guy, time in the gym and so on. Later on a return to Europe to stay with family while I emotionally rebuilt, pick up my career and move on. Selfishly I said to myself that even if that put the Atlantic between me and my children, there was no way that I could stay in Miami as it has become toxic for me. If my kids ended up screwed up, that would be my wife’s fault too. Following bits of TAM strategy, I was in full 180 mode with my wife, strong and happy, a bit of sardonic humour, and informed our friends all over the world by email about what she she had done and the apparent death of our marriage. She didn’t like that. 

So 3 days ago we went visiting single bedroom apartments with a realtor friend. Depressing as it it made impending separation very real, I think we were both walking around with knots in our stomachs. Again when we talked I was telling her that continued contact even by phone with the other man meant that it could never work. I also told her that separation was final, no reconciliation possible, because her first week in the apartment he would be with her and there was no going back from that.

We went home together, kids still at school, and I could see that she was emotionally at the end of the line and very tired. She said that she was going for a nap, and I just got on with my life dealing with emails and so on. 20 minutes later she comes downstairs and announces that I am right, she will cut all contact with the other man, it has been messing with her head, and we should work forwards together. I was astounded at the sudden u-turn, kind of happy but also very wary. 

Since then we have reassured the kids, rather than informing them of the separation as originally planned. But now I find myself in this weird position. Again I am set up for her to lie to me, repick up contact with the other man without me knowing, or to suddenly announce in weeks/months time that it's over, i.e. becoming the victim all over again. I’m so cynical now and find it hard to believe anything that she says, so not reassured. Equally, given how screwed up she is at the moment I guess that I’m consigning myself to months of no sex life while she continues to mourn the end of the affair and tries to find herself again. I think that one of the turning points was when she spoke to our youngest (12yo) the night before we visited the apartments. She told him that mum and dad weren’t getting on very well and he cut her short to say that if we divorce he’ll break both his legs and run away!  He wasn’t clear in what order he would do this, but I could see that it affected her deeply, maybe she started to understand the consequences of her “bit of fun” for the family!

An observation on our communication over the past month is partly my perception of our different moral values. She is French, so having an affair is not a big deal in a way. For me it's huge. I discovered in our talks that for her the big issue is the problems in our marriage, the affair is a tiny detail. For me our marital problems are all minor and fixable, but the affair is a huge, black monolith of granite weighing on my heart. This means that we talk at completely different levels.

So, firstly I apologise for this huge monologue and I hope that some of you have been willing to persevere and wade through it. Secondly, do any of you have any insight on what might be the way forward? Do I take her at face value, risking a third knife between my shoulder blades at a later date? Obviously for the sake of the children I feel an obligation to try again, but I was accepting separation in my head and now feel like the stronger of us because I can see the way out. Unfortunately to go forwards I’ll just have to believe someone who’s been lying for me to months, her phone is a professional one so I have no access to call records, and I’ll be back to wondering every time that she goes to the gym or elsewhere, “Is she seeing him again?”. You understand my problems with going back to a life filled with suspicion.

Finally, thank you for the support over the past 6 weeks. You didn't know that you were helping, but the lurking on here reading other peoples' stories and perspectives has helped me to find my way out of the deep, black hole of the cuckold.


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## anchorwatch

Welcome, Florida. 

Sorry for the reason that brings you here. Have you read the CWI newbie thread? 

Do you intend to play warden for long? What has she agreed to that will assure you she's in NC? What's the plan to move forward? MC? 

It's quiet here on the weekends. Other's will be along in a bit. Don't be rattled by the tone of their post. Most of it is meant to wake you up to different views you may be overlooking. 

Best


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## SecondTime'Round

Wow, so sorry for everything your wife has put you through. She doesn't sound trustworthy and has a lot to do to prove to you that she is if you stick with it. 

Am I understanding correctly that you've already told the children the separation is not going to happen?


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## anchorwatch

Another question, Florida. 

As a SAHD, have you read either No More Mr Nice Guy or The Married Man Sex Life Primer?


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## Florida_rosbif

Hi, thanks for the replies. I have just read through the CWI Newbies thread. So much good information there. Infidelity makes you feel like such a sad, trusting dork when you think of all the signs that you missed. My WS lost 25 lbs that she's never been able to budge in all the years that we've been together - it got to the point that I was thinking of potential medical issues, but I never thought of infidelity. Duh?

Now of course it's my turn to lose weight, nearly 20 lbs so far, just down to lost appetite, lack of sleep and general unhappiness.

After my WS did her u-turn away from separation last week, she talked reassuringly to the kids saying that things seemed to be going better and not to worry.

The books recommended are unknown to me, will hit Amazon and get them!

As for how to believe in her maintaining NC, I still don't know. I think at the moment she is sincere, but who knows what urges next week may bring? I'm thinking about the VAR in her home office, but don't really see what else I can do.

Yes current plans include us both seeing therapists individually AND going to joint sessions, starting next week. My concern is to avoid a 3rd DDay, the first 2 nearly killed me off.


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## sixty-eight

Florida_rosbif said:


> As for how to believe in her maintaining NC, I still don't know. I think at the moment she is sincere, but who knows what urges next week may bring? I'm thinking about the VAR in her home office, but don't really see what else I can do.


There are apps you can install on her phone that track location and/or phone use, if the phone records are unavailable to you.

Trusting her to maintain the no contact on her own seems unwise.


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## farsidejunky

Paging @jerry123


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## anchorwatch

Florida, 

You should understand she's hooked on the excitement of the affair. Not unlike an addict. 80% of addicts fail while trying to get clean. It's explained in this link, Anatomy of an Affair - The Chemistry of Love, along with other resources you might use to form a plan. 

Let me ask you, what work has she committed herself to in order for you to stay? Has she done any research or reading how she can fix the M or make you feel safe? Here's a link for you both Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends" 

Best


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## Florida_rosbif

Anchorwatch

My WS just suddenly backed up when we had seen apartments to rent to organise separation. We have spoken extensively since then, yes she has again stopped all contact with the man in question, but the reality is that she backed down because she realised how much damage this would do to our 3 kids.

It doesn't feel good to know that she didn't pull back because of me but I accept that she's just at the beginning of rehab and can't see through the fog. She wants me to be more joyful and so on, but as I said to her yesterday, maybe even a best-case, fully normal me won't be enough for her. Women seem to expect the fairy tale, while pragmatic men like myself will soldier on knowing that nothing in life is ever perfect!

She's off to a Europe for a couple of weeks, one of work and one visiting family in France and trying to "find herself" again. At least she will be far from the other man physically, though of course nothing precludes her from making contact with him again except her promises. Given my lack of trust that's kind of meaningless now!


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## turnera

Install an app on her phone before she leaves so that you can remotely track her calls and texts, and a GPS so you can see where she is at.

That, at the minimum, is what YOU require to be WILLING to stay married to her. 

And she has to believe that you mean it.


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## GusPolinski

I'd divorce, and primarily because her massive sense of entitlement just means that she's all the more likely to cheat again. And Hell, this might have not even been her first affair.

Oh, and if you have any concerns regarding the paternity of your children, be sure to have them tested before your wife manages to run off to communist France w/ them in tow.


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## GusPolinski

Florida_rosbif said:


> Anchorwatch
> 
> 
> 
> My WS just suddenly backed up when we had seen apartments to rent to organise separation. We have spoken extensively since then, yes she has again stopped all contact with the man in question, but the reality is that she backed down because she realised how much damage this would do to our 3 kids.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't feel good to know that she didn't pull back because of me but I accept that she's just at the beginning of rehab and can't see through the fog. She wants me to be more joyful and so on, but as I said to her yesterday, maybe even a best-case, fully normal me won't be enough for her. Women seem to expect the fairy tale, while pragmatic men like myself will soldier on knowing that nothing in life is ever perfect!
> 
> 
> 
> She's off to a Europe for a couple of weeks, one of work and one visiting family in France and trying to "find herself" again. At least she will be far from the other man physically, though of course nothing precludes her from making contact with him again except her promises. Given my lack of trust that's kind of meaningless now!



Just caught that last bit.

She hasn't stopped cheating.


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## 6301

Your gut feeling is your best way to gauge the situation. You have to ask yourself if you want to spend the rest of your life always wondering if she's where she says she at, doing what she say's she doing, with whoshe says' she's with. 

In my opinion it's a lousy way to live because you never have any peace and that shadow of doubt always hovering over you.

If you feel that she's capable of doing this again and turning you life upside down in a heart beat then my advice is cutting your losses and moving on. You already have a couple knives in your back and I think that in the long run your going to get that third knife. She doesn't respect you or the marriage and I doubt that she ever will.


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## Florida_rosbif

turnera said:


> Install an app on her phone before she leaves so that you can remotely track her calls and texts, and a GPS so you can see where she is at.
> 
> That, at the minimum, is what YOU require to be WILLING to stay married to her.
> 
> And she has to believe that you mean it.


Hi Turnera, I have been looking into these apps. They all seem to be pretty crap judging from user reviews. It's a shame as the advertising blurb makes them sound very powerful and useful. :frown2:


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## Florida_rosbif

Paternity of kids, absolutely no issues there.

The trip to France isn't about cheating, I have no concerns with that. However, one valid point is that as you wallow in the pain of betrayal, you actually look back at all the years spent together and wonder if this is the first time that your WS has cheated. Very sad it actually undermines your memories of many years of marriage.

An interesting point that I came across while scouring the net was the statement that a person who's parents cheated around is more likely to cheat themselves. Well my WS's parents were screwing around terribly before eventually divorcing, so the cheating role model is strong. 

While the temptation to pull the plug on our marriage is strong, for moral reasons I really want to be able to say to my kids that "your mother wants a divorce" rather than it being me who insists upon it. They're too young for me to explain to them why this happening to our family, what WS did and so on, so I want it least to be her "fault" in their eyes. Dumb maybe, standing on principles.


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## turnera

Florida_rosbif said:


> Hi Turnera, I have been looking into these apps. They all seem to be pretty crap judging from user reviews. It's a shame as the advertising blurb makes them sound very powerful and useful. :frown2:


Not all of them are crap. You may have to actually spend some decent money to get a decent one. Consider paying a PI a consultation fee to get you hooked up with the right ones.


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## GusPolinski

Florida_rosbif said:


> Paternity of kids, absolutely no issues


Good deal.



Florida_rosbif said:


> The trip to France isn't about cheating, I have no concerns with that.


Ehhh... it may not be ABOUT cheating, but I'd bet my next paycheck that that's exactly how she intends to go about "finding herself".


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## 3Xnocharm

Divorce.


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## 3Xnocharm

Florida_rosbif said:


> While the temptation to pull the plug on our marriage is strong, for moral reasons I really want to be able to say to my kids that "your mother wants a divorce" rather than it being me who insists upon it. They're too young for me to explain to them why this happening to our family, what WS did and so on, so I want it least to be her "fault" in their eyes. Dumb maybe, standing on principles.


It IS her fault, because she cheated on you with another man. That is a betrayal to the children as well as you. Your kids will respect that you ended this, showing them that you will not tolerate that kind of disrespect, and neither should they. You set a better example by taking the strong way out.


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## jerry123

Well, that's quite a story.

As you read more stories here you'll most likely see that like other wives, your wife is cake eating. 


And it sounds like she is not remorseful at all. Next time he calls or texts she will be back in dopamine heaven. 

She's gone. 

If she's going back to Europe to "find" herself I would FIND a good lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Florida_rosbif

I will be talking to her later about putting an app on her iphone giving geographic location, texts, whatsapp, numbers called, etc. We shall see how she reacts, any reticence and I'll be suspicious as hell. A certain electronics store is on my list tomorrow for a couple of VARs, one for her study here and one for her car.

In our discussions so far any divorce will be amicable, property here and overseas split equally. As for custody of the kids, that will be a difficult discussion with me returning to Europe leaving her in her US paradise.


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## anchorwatch

She doesn't need her phone to contact him, any phone will do. 

Does she still fraternize/socialize in the OM circles?


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## WorkingOnMe

You seem really really naive. And what man with any self respect would stay with someone who is only doing it for the kids. And no sex until she figures herself out? lol you're kidding right? No sex with who? Right, no sex with YOU. But she's just off to Europe for a couple weeks, nothing will happen there.... Of course not. 

Why let yourself be plan B? Why is the question of divorce something she gets to decide?


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## anchorwatch

Florida, 

You're going through a lot. You're behind the curve, as we Yanks say. She's moving along and you're reacting to her. It should be the other way around. You need to slow it down and not promise her anything right now. Consider @WorkingOnMe's last sentence carefully.


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## turnera

Florida_rosbif said:


> I will be talking to her later about putting an app on her iphone giving geographic location, texts, whatsapp, numbers called, etc. We shall see how she reacts, any reticence and I'll be suspicious as hell.


NNNNHHH, wrong answer.

Any reticence and you inform her that she will have papers waiting for her so she can enjoy her new single life. But the kids will stay with you.

THAT is how you handle a cheater to save a marriage.


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## tech-novelist

"Finding myself" = cheating. 

So I'd bet my bottom dollar that she will be having sex in Europe.

I'm sorry to hear that you have children who will be hurt, but this isn't going to improve, so you need to divorce her.


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## Florida_rosbif

At least you guys and gals make me smile, something I'm not doing a lot of right now!

Maybe I am naive in these matters, despite being pretty worldly and realistic in general. After 23 years with my wife I know her pretty well, and the scenario of she's off to Europe to do some screwing is not correct. She's far from being a sex maniac (unfortunately for me), so the time spent in France will be with her mother and couples that we know well, I'm not even remotely worried about that. She REALLY is screwed up at the moment, what with missing the SOB that she had the affair with and seeing her kids wondering what the hell is going on.

However, where you are right is that I'm tired of hanging around waiting for her to make a decision that affects my future. I told her tonight that while she's in Europe I'll be seeing a lawyer to get necessary papers drafted, ready for her return.

We are seeing a MC on Thursday and we shall see if there is any way to get us talking on the same page. I'm obsessed with and deeply wounded by the affair, whereas to her that seems to be chicken**** and she wants to talk about our marriage in general and the past few years of living with me being a grumpy, old bear. To her the affair is a minor issue, a symptom of the malaise in our marriage, whereas to me it is THE important subject that I can't get past.

Funnily enough her mother, a lovely lady but a very experienced cheater during both of her marriages, keeps telling me to stop talking about the affair and concentrate on our marriage. To her too, it is but a minor detail. Must be a French thing.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that men have varying abilities to get over their WS's infidelities. Some manage it and go on, some just can't do it at all and ultimately the relationship is doomed. Potentially my inability to process this in the absence of regret or guilt on her part will ultimately end the marriage.


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## turnera

There's only one way to get your wife to realize just how badly her cheating has hurt you: divorce her.

You can always date again later, after the divorce. When she's ready to respect you again.


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## Conniefromkansas

I am so sorry for your wife's affair. The pain is deep to your core and nothing can fix it immediately, but I have a few thoughts for you. 
I haven't read the other replies in order to give my thoughts without prejudice. 

First-Do you love her? Does she love you? Or are you together for the kids? Is your family unit, when not overshadowed by infidelity, a nuturing environment for your family?
Do WANT to stay or do you feel you HAVE to stay?

I ask all this because, infidelity is such a ridiculously addicting behavior and while your heart hurts because you feel she cheated on you, her body chemistry only sees it as pure euphoria. Do you remember the first 6 months you and her were dating? Endorphins and pheromones had you drunk on love. Only after those levels returned to normal did you start to date each other outside of your chemical influence. Your wife is seeking that high with the other man that she forgot all about after 20 years of marriage. Is it wrong? You bet your sweet ass it's wrong, but that only heightens the impact of the new relationship chemistry. The other man does not sound like relationship material and I think she knows that, she's just caught up in the rush. Every time she gets a text from him her stomach jumps with excitement. Not because of him, not because he is a better man than you, because of the chemicals! She gets a small dose adrenalin. It's addicting. 

She HAS to go cold turkey. Maybe, after answering the questions I posed above and determining if you both are staying for the right reasons, you can work through this like it's an addiction to how the affair makes her feel, not how that man makes her feel. COLD TURKEY, COLD TURKEY, COLD TURKEY!!!

But, after some serious consideration, if you both decide your relationship is not worth saving, do yourself and your kids a favor and do what will make you good parents and put yourself in a situation to model a healthy relationship. I am a child of a 'stick it out for the kids' relationship and it was horrible. I would have much preferred my parents happy and apart then together and miserable. 

Also, come on dude! Florida has so much to offer. You may want to do what you can to help yourself have a rather enlightening paradigm shift. 

Are you in squalor, are you or a loved one dying, can you not go stick your feet in the ocean, can you not look out at the sun almost daily... Seriously, shake it off and find your joy in being alive and well. 

Then go work on your marriage! Pollyanna, I know. Sorry.


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## jld

My husband is French and sees affairs much like your wife and mother, as a consequence of a problem in the marriage, not the cause. 

Maybe he can comment later.


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## Florida_rosbif

Thanks Connie, lots of good sense and perspective there. I still love my WS, but can feel that it is not very reciprocated at the moment. That is maybe normal when she has been basically building her love for someone else. 

Can we rebuild from here, I guess the jury is out. The problem is that I hardly feel like making big efforts on the marital front when I feel so betrayed and have so little trust. The whole affair makes me feel like she is the one that needs to do the work to get closer to me, yet she will say that the affair happened because our relationship was rocky and that I have to work on that. Catch22.

We were a very stable family unit with a good environment for the kids. Even now, neither of us are shouters or aggressive, so any difficult discussions are held behind closed doors without exposing the kids.


JLD - interesting your husband's perspective, it certainly makes it sound like the ease with which a French person will have an affair if the marriage is a bit rocky is a cultural trait. Very alien to me and doesn't really help me to get over it, but at least explains why my wife considers to be a minor issue. She ripped my heart out and shredded it, yet it's a minor issue!:|


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## Tron

Florida_rosbif said:


> I seem to recall reading somewhere that men have varying abilities to get over their WS's infidelities. Some manage it and go on, some just can't do it at all and ultimately the relationship is doomed. Potentially my inability to process this in the absence of regret or guilt on her part will ultimately end the marriage.


The absence of remorse (regret, guilt and empathy for the pain she has caused) on her part makes the end of the marriage much more likely...almost certain.

I don't currently see it from your WW. She is still in the fog.

I'd tell her that you are currently leaning towards a divorce, but if she has any thoughts on trying to reconcile while she 'finds herself" in Europe then send her with a copy of "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda McDonald.

If she spends any time with the book while she is gone and shows you some kind of commitment when she gets home then you might have something to work with. 

As for this:



Florida_rosbif said:


> JLD - interesting your husband's perspective, it certainly makes it sound like the ease with which a French person will have an affair if the marriage is a bit rocky is a cultural trait. Very alien to me and doesn't really help me to get over it, but at least explains why my wife considers to be a minor issue. She ripped my heart out and shredded it, yet it's a minor issue!:|


Tell her your not French. The rest of the world doesn't see it that way at all, and more importantly you don't see it that way. It is not a 'minor issue', so she can take the French way of dealing with it and shove it up her nasty, cheating tw*t.


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## Tron

Florida_rosbif said:


> Can we rebuild from here, I guess the jury is out. The problem is that I hardly feel like making big efforts on the marital front when I feel so betrayed and have so little trust. The whole affair makes me feel like she is the one that needs to do the work to get closer to me, yet she will say that the affair happened because our relationship was rocky and that I have to work on that. Catch22.


It seems you have a good understanding of what you need.

She has a long way to go to make this M work. 

And if she is going to stay married to you just 'for the kids', you are in for some pain brother.


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## Duguesclin

jld said:


> My husband is French and sees affairs much like your wife and mother, as a consequence of a problem in the marriage, not the cause.
> 
> Maybe he can comment later.





Tron said:


> Tell her your not French. The rest of the world doesn't see it that way at all, and more importantly you don't see it that way. It is not a 'minor issue', so she can take the French way of dealing with it and shove it up her nasty, cheating tw*t.


The French are like the Americans; an affair is not a minor issue. However, regardless of the culture, an affair is a symptom of a much deeper problem in the marriage.

The problem in the marriage does not justify the affair. It only explains it, like poverty can explain higher crime rates.

Fixing the marriage is not only on the shoulders of the OP's wife (mainly addressing the affair). It is also the responsibility of the OP. 

The OP cannot justify his inaction to resolve his marriages issues on the fact that he is waiting for his wife to make amends.

The affair is not right and I totally understand it hurts. But, it is like breaking your leg in a car accident. Whether the accident is your fault or not, and whether the other party involved in the accident apologizes or not, the leg hurts and you are going to have to cope with it.


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## tech-novelist

Florida_rosbif said:


> At least you guys and gals make me smile, something I'm not doing a lot of right now!
> 
> Maybe I am naive in these matters, despite being pretty worldly and realistic in general. After 23 years with my wife I know her pretty well, and the scenario of she's off to Europe to do some screwing is not correct. She's far from being a sex maniac (unfortunately for me),


You would be surprised at how many men think the same thing about their wives.

Or should I say "thought" the same thing, because it turned out that their wives were indeed sex maniacs... just not with their husbands.


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## Tron

Duguesclin said:


> The French are like the Americans; an affair is not a minor issue. However, regardless of the culture, an affair is a symptom of a much deeper problem in the marriage.
> 
> The problem in the marriage does not justify the affair. It only explains it, like poverty can explain higher crime rates.
> 
> Fixing the marriage is not only on the shoulders of the OP's wife (mainly addressing the affair). It is also the responsibility of the OP.
> 
> The OP cannot justify his inaction to resolve his marriages issues on the fact that he is waiting for his wife to make amends.
> 
> The affair is not right and I totally understand it hurts. But, it is like breaking your leg in a car accident. Whether the accident is your fault or not, and whether the other party involved in the accident apologizes or not, the leg hurts and you are going to have to cope with it.


Well, how about this scenario Dug? The OP's wife decides that her job is more important than his and moves him and family to the US, where presumably he has no permit to work, and he winds up their children's primary caretaker out of necessity, and where he feels out of sorts, and then she loses respect for him and then cheats on him because she is shallow and selfish, where does the primary responsibility for this huge clusterfuc* fall?

In your car accident example, yes he is having to cope with the broken leg and dealing with the pain, but the one who caused the accident in the first place winds up footing the bill (or their insurance company does). If they R she is going to have a heavy cross to bear.

I am not saying Florida can't lead this where he wants it to go, and give her the opening, but at some point she must take that opening and take responsibility for her part in the mess. And her part is HUGE!

Right now we don't know whether the basis for her second guessing the separation is emotional, practical or financial. Which one should make a difference to Florida.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Duguesclin said:


> Fixing the marriage is not only on the shoulders of the OP's wife (mainly addressing the affair). It is also the responsibility of the OP.
> 
> The OP cannot justify his inaction to resolve his marriages issues on the fact that he is waiting for his wife to make amends.


Thank you for this, you've at least nicely rubbed my nose in it and made me think. It is true that at the moment I feel justified in taking the attitude that she has to do the heavy lifting to fix things, while at the same time in our talks we've agreed that neither of us want to go back to where we were before. Ultimately this will require action on my part and I can't keep hiding from it.

All good stuff to raise with the MC tomorrow.


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## Florida_rosbif

Hey Tron, thanks for your kind words. You seem as much on my side as my mother is - she doesn't say much about it other than her observation "She got everything that she wanted and then did this to you."

The internet's limits preclude me buying you a beer but rest assured, I'd like to! It's always good to feel supported.


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## manfromlamancha

Hello Florida and sorry to have you here. Here is my tuppence worth of observations and comments:



How did you meet your wife? I have seen more failed Anglo-French marriages than successful ones. Did you have much in common ? What was she attracted to in you? In nearly all of the failed marriages I have seen where the wife was French and cheated, another Frenchman was involved - go figure. The women seem to be susceptible to men from their country.


This marriage is over. No doubt here based on all that you have said. Your gut is guiding you perfectly here. She has all but made it perfectly clear that she is only considering reconciliation because of the children and this not only WILL NOT last long but it CAN NOT last long under these circumstances. Also long term this will cause more damage to your kids as they will get a twisted view of what marriage is. Much better two happy divorced parents than two resentful and miserable married parents.


She seems to have complete control over what happens next - stay, go, stay, go … etc and you are right to feel anxious and apprehensive waiting for the next bullet. You need to take control and since the writing is on the wall, I would proceed full speed ahead with protecting yourself, healing yourself and filing for divorce i.e. lawyers, 180 & reading/gym; and separation/divorce.


Be honest with your kids. You don't have to bash their mother but lying to spare their feelings will come back to bite you.


Finally she is still emotionally hooked on him and is cheating in her head. You CAN NOT reconcile under these conditions.



Take care my friend and keep posting here.


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## Florida_rosbif

manfromlamancha said:


> Hello Florida and sorry to have you here. Here is my tuppence worth of observations and comments:
> 
> 
> 
> How did you meet your wife? I have seen more failed Anglo-French marriages than successful ones. Did you have much in common ? What was she attracted to in you? In nearly all of the failed marriages I have seen where the wife was French and cheated, another Frenchman was involved - go figure. The women seem to be susceptible to men from their country.
> 
> 
> This marriage is over. No doubt here based on all that you have said. Your gut is guiding you perfectly here. She has all but made it perfectly clear that she is only considering reconciliation because of the children and this not only WILL NOT last long but it CAN NOT last long under these circumstances. Also long term this will cause more damage to your kids as they will get a twisted view of what marriage is. Much better two happy divorced parents than two resentful and miserable married parents.
> 
> 
> She seems to have complete control over what happens next - stay, go, stay, go … etc and you are right to feel anxious and apprehensive waiting for the next bullet. You need to take control and since the writing is on the wall, I would proceed full speed ahead with protecting yourself, healing yourself and filing for divorce i.e. lawyers, 180 & reading/gym; and separation/divorce.
> 
> 
> Be honest with your kids. You don't have to bash their mother but lying to spare their feelings will come back to bite you.
> 
> 
> Finally she is still emotionally hooked on him and is cheating in her head. You CAN NOT reconcile under these conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care my friend and keep posting here.


Hey Manfromlamancha

We met at work in the UK when she was posted over from Paris as a young trainee engineer. In retrospect I wonder how much we really did have in common. She was attracted to broad shoulders, a young professional, stability, intellectual equal, etc. Interesting what you say as a friend of mine in the UK, when informed of the situation here, observed that it must be a French wife thing as another Brit friend has just finished his divorce from a cheating French wife!

We will see if the marriage has run it's course. I hope that you're wrong, and I have to take the wait and see attitude for the moment and give time and the MC a chance. It is clear that neither of us want to go back to where we were - she wants a joyous, optimistic husband and I want more sex! While I accept that staying together for the kids is not a long term solution, it might be ok in the short term as long as the marriage stays functional and is not sexless. As stated, we are not aggressive shouters that make life unbearable for the kids so the family unit still feels remarkably cohesive despite the raw, bleeding hole in my chest!

Unfortunately she does have a measure of control because she is the one in the fixed job here. Added to that, my industry (oil and gas) is screwed at the moment by the low oil prices so work is pretty hard to come by, and it is a sector that doesn't exist here in Miami. Even Houston is currently in meltdown. During the dark weeks after DDay the only thing that finally pulled me out of the murk was realising that there is a way out of this trap - head back to Europe on my own and regroup, even if this will put the Atlantic between me and my kids. We will see the MC tomorrow and then she will have a week and half in Europe for work and to see family. On her return there will be some hard decisions to make I guess.

As stated my eldest son knows what his mum did and is clearly affected by it. He has become more withdrawn and less joyful. The younger two know that we are going through a bad patch but don't know why. Everyone is telling me not to tell them what she did as it will be damaging for them and their relationships with their mother, but of course one day they will know.

I've read enough on TAM and elsewhere to understand that she is like a drug addict going cold turkey. Physically there has been no contact between her and the other man for about 7 weeks, but then I did discover telephone contact (innocent she said :smile2 so the EA was still ongoing. All comms are now cut and he is staying in a rented room while unknown to him his wife is preparing the divorce papers, assuming that she now goes through with it. He is trying to get beck in with her but she has had more than her fair share of pain living with that *******. I am obviously concerned about his AND my WS's reactions once the divorce is announced - this will surely be another reason for everything to be possible again. Having said that, my WS insists very sincerely that it is over and that she knows that they had no future given his shallow character, she says that she recognises now that he is toxic. Do I believe her? At the moment yes, but that can all change in the weeks to come of course. 

Without wishing to offend the many women who are on TAM because they are victims of infidelity too, there is a bitter British saying that sums up what I think of women at the moment - they're all snakes with txts!


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## Tron

You've been the children's primary caregiver for the past couple of years. 

Do the kids necessarily have to stay with her? You seem committed to it, but not sure why.

If you are able to continue to keep the kids, it would appear that your WW is going to get financially hammered in a divorce.


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## turnera

Yeah, I don't see why the kids would stay with her. I would suggest that you let your wife know - in MC - that if you divorce, you WILL be seeking full custody, you know, since you are the primary caregiver.


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## jb02157

I think the biggest problem here is that she doesn't see the affair as a big deal and how much it hurts you. The fact that she told you she is willing to stay in the marriage only for the kids would make it hurt even more. This woman hurts you in practically every way a person can hurt another. I really think there's no way that you can save this relationship, you are too hurt about what happened and she has absolutely no remorse or concern for your feelings. I'd go back to France, rebuild your career and try to see the kids when you can. There's only so much you can fix here and I really hope things work out for you. I'm so sorry for all the pain you're going through.


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## Florida_rosbif

The issue of the kids is of course complicated by schooling, and if I headed back to the UK to look for work and rebuild myself then having 3 kids to look after would be a complication! The eldest has said that he wants to come to the UK with me to go to university, if I head back there. My WS's life would certainly be very different if I leave as I'm the poor sod getting up at 6 to make their lunches, drop the youngest at school and then do the pick up in the afternoon on alternate days.

However, the whole custody issue is food for thought, I hadn't really addressed that in my plans.

I'd just like to say thank you to you all. You know how important it is to vent and discuss, it's an important part of processing what you're going through, so this has all been very cathartic for me. Internet beers all round!


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## D.H Mosquito

Call her bluff and tell her you've had enough of her affairs and you are returning to the UK, If this doesn't reign her in nothing will and just cut your losses and come back home to the UK


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## JohnA

Hi, yput wife sounds like a drama junkie, 

First, If issues in a marriage are like a kitchen fire, adultery is like using gasoline instead of water to put it out. She
is right to chain that you both need to fix the issues, but the adultery is her's to fix, 

You are the stable parent, the children belong with you, here or in the UK. Consult an attorney here and in the UK. As to mmey - she would owe you shoty term sopusal and long term child support. The short term spousal support is often addressed by by a lump sum from division of the assets.

Get back to UK with the kids while she is in Europe to get you emotional balance back, even if it is for a week or two. If school is an issue cite family crisis.

Life can be good, make it so.


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## Steve1000

Florida_rosbif said:


> Hey Manfromlamancha
> 
> We will see if the marriage has run it's course. I hope that you're wrong, and I have to take the wait and see attitude for the moment and give time and the MC a chance.


For some unfortunate reason, emotional attachment causes so many of us to lose our critical thinking skills and hold on to hope when there is truly none to hold on to. In other aspects of life, you are obviously an intelligent person. I hope that someday, you get to the point where you can more clearly see your marriage for what it truly is. When that happens, you'll feel more anger and realize that you deserve much better treatment and are much more than what your wife has valued you.


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## jld

Do you think she found it comforting to be with someone from her culture, who speaks her language?

Dug is not like that, but I can see how that would be comforting for her. Still a bad decision, but understandable. She was away from home, in a foreign country, with her foreign husband. She may have been seeking landmarks.


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## Tron

jld said:


> She was away from home, in a foreign country, with her foreign husband. She may have been _*seeking landmarks*_.


Is that what we are calling a fresh new c*ck these days?

Sorry jld. Couldn't help that one. Came out like word vomit. :grin2: 


OP, your situation is complicated by the fact that you both are foreign nationals and can move back to Europe essentially any time you want to. And, once you do, the Florida courts won't really have jurisdiction over you any more.

OP, I think you would be well suited to consult with a local attorney to get a full picture of what you might expect in a Florida divorce. Do it while she is gone on her trip. Maybe do the same for a divorce in the UK. And compare.

Based upon the horror stories that I've heard about from other TAMmers from the UK, I believe that you, as a male, would ultimately get a better result in Florida than back in Europe. Males seem to be routinely discriminated against in the UK. We are a bit more progressive about it here...at least in most states. I have no idea about divorces in France. I can only remember 1 other divorce on this site that happened there in the last 3 years and there weren't any kids involved.

Just based on a cursory review on the internet you would be entitled to child support (with full and/or partial custody) and at least some temporary spousal support. Realistically, you could be getting close to half her net pay at the end of the day, for a couple of years. Not too bad. 

Perhaps she got a wake up call and figured that out around the time you did your apartment hunting. 

Bottom line though, your lifestyles would take a HUGE hit. 

Worth it to get your self respect back...but ultimately up to you.

Anyway, if she comes back from Europe with a different attitude then maybe we can have a different conversation then.

So what's your favorite beer?


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## Chaparral

The first thing you need to do is see an attorney. Fla. is not kind to dads that are the main breadwinner from what I've seen here. Since she is brining home the paycheck you may be in the drivers seat. Check out dadsdivorce.com.

Secondly, do what you need to do career wise to get back as an equal partner. Change careers if you have to. We have had loads of stay at home dads cheated on here. The only one I can think of that came out alright followed MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER and went back to work. The rest have been lost causes. Women married to sahds are easy pickings for player types. Its easy to point out the faults and breed disrespect for some one not carrying his share of the load no matter how progressive thought trys to rearrange millions of years of natural selection or religious teachings depending on your philosophy.

She fell for the bad boy as opposed to the nanny, housekeeper.

To bad you didn't kick his drunken a$$ when you had the chance. Hmmmmm.


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## Chaparral

BTW, do you have control of your kid's passports?

Why did you agree to go somewhere with no job prospects?


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## 3Xnocharm

jld said:


> Do you think she found it comforting to be with someone from her culture, who speaks her language?
> 
> Dug is not like that, but I can see how that would be comforting for her. Still a bad decision, but understandable. She was away from home, in a foreign country, with her foreign husband. She may have been seeking landmarks.


Oh goody, here comes jld into another thread to forgive the POS cheating wife, as always. String up the cheating husbands by their balls, but dammit, a wife has the God given right to cheat! :crazy:


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## manfromlamancha

OK I get what you are saying Rosbif, but she has the measure of control with regard to employment only because you are giving her that control. Here is why.

You hate living in Miami (believe me I get that - the humidity, food etc don't do anything for me)! Yet you and the kids are living in Miami - why - because she says so.

You could be back in the UK where your kids will get a decent education and be taken care of just fine. I don't know what you do in Oil & Gas but I am pretty sure you will find employment in the UK of some kind if that is what you want. I don't know if you were in oil trading, sales, project management or were an upstream engineer of some kind, but these are all skills that are transferable to other industries too.

The long and short of it is that you could be in the UK with your kids and supporting them too.

As for your wife, the way in which she disrespected you is pretty indicative of her thinking and what her true nature is. I know that you are holding out for some temporary resolve and sex but this is just burying your head in the sand! You need to be making more concrete plans for you and your kids. The first step is recognising that the marriage is over and you must now look at custody and co-parenting as the only shared activities and interests with this woman.

And I really hope that you are not buying into a poor French woman in a foreign land looking for some "home comforts" by latching onto Gaston's uneducated and rough c0ck!!!!

Take care.


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## BetrayedDad

Divorce her.... She is remorseless.


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## Florida_rosbif

JohnA said:


> If issues in a marriage are like a kitchen fire, adultery is like using gasoline instead of water to put it out.


I like this image and it is very true. I still think that our marital issues are/were eminently solvable, but the whole affair thing, whhoooaaaa! I pride myself on being able to fix just about anything, but here I guess I've met my match. How the **** are you supposed to unscrew a woman?


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## Florida_rosbif

Steve1000 said:


> When that happens, you'll feel more anger and realize that you deserve much better treatment and are much more than what your wife has valued you.


Steve, I hope that you're right. We had previously looked at moving from France to the USA when she was working for Apple. That would have put us over towards Cupertino, with oil companies just up the road and work for me.

The Miami option came up with a newer employer - I wasn't enthusiastic but for tax reasons it was a good time to leave France. I guess I under estimated the impact of not working full time after 25 years of it. Loss of self esteem and identity.

I still maintain that none of that justifies what she did - okay so
I had the blues? Give me tenderness, love and plenty of blowjobs, this can be worked out. That's not what she did unfortunately.

The poison of an affair is SO destructive, you're worth nothing, you're not enough of a man, etc.

There are situations where it is more understandable. I have a friend in France who was the great provider until he had a heart attack. Due to the beta blocker drugs he's been sexually dead for six years or so. That his wife ended up finding a lover is sort of natural given the tensions for her. But when I didn't get rejected and my wife and I made love it worked well for both of us, no issues, so that's not a valid excuse.

The reality is that women are far more cerebral in their relationships, so it's not because you make them come that all is well. ****ing complicated animals, that old Mars and Venus stuff was no doubt on the mark (though I've never read it!).


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## Florida_rosbif

jld said:


> Do you think she found it comforting to be with someone from her culture, who speaks her language?


I don't know. Language no, I speak French too so in the family home we mostly speak French unless I want to work on my kids' English. 

To be honest I think it was mostly about energy. I'm bored here so long dog walks in the fields, gardening, golf, with the occasional consultancy trip abroad. Not very exciting maybe. The other man is in full mid life crisis, lots of gym time, has lost 70 lbs, talks a lot and loudly (all **** but that's my opinion I guess!).


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## JohnA

Hi, I would point point out you have issues as well. You touched on one, a lack of consistence of intimacy. What others ?

What citizenship do your children hold? 

Do you think your wife craves drama?

What assumptions have you made of the outcome of a divorce, what assumptions has she made? 

Challenge them. 

If I were to say to you prepare for the worst, have you?


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## Florida_rosbif

Hey Tron

Haven't looked into it much yet. We were married in France, which is one of the few western countries to still consider blame in divorce, i.e. adultery could affect the judgement. The reality is that I would be happy with a 50/50 split of global assets and some short term support while I get my head together and find a job back in Europe. Would rather be amicable about it and avoid feeding the attorneys. 

I don't see financial rape as an appropriate form of revenge - the cost for her would be to have to live without me! 

In terms of custody I would rather give the kids their choice. No doubt the two youngest will stay here where their mother and friends are. The oldest, who knows what happened, wants to come to Europe with me for his studies.


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## Florida_rosbif

Chaparral, I'm expecting Married Man Sex Primer in the post any day now, so your comment interests me. In any case, I want to back to work so that I can justify toys again! I sold my Porsche turbo when I left France and have been without a sports car since then - that's **** as cars are one of my passions. Bastard things have doubled in value since I sold it too, salt in the wound.


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## Florida_rosbif

Manfromlamancha - I will be honest and admit that the thought of taking all 3 kids back to the UK with me, and having to look after them while I get my head together and find a job, does not fill me with joy. We shall see, because of the comments on here I am determined that in the event of divorce talks I want to give them the choice. As long as I play nice guy and don't tell them what nasty mummy did I'm sure that the younger two will elect to stay here, and I don't want to mess with their heads and tell them the whole sordid story.

The eldest (who knows what she did) has already said that he wants to come and study in the UK where I have lots of family, cousins that he loves, etc. He will be at uni anyway, so nothing that would preclude me working or scouting around for tasty ladies looking for fun!


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## Florida_rosbif

BetrayedDad said:


> Divorce her.... She is remorseless.


Yep, she is. A star on TAM sent me the link to a TED TALK on infidelity. The speaker, who had very objective and informed views on the matter, said that the betrayer should be sorry and guilty for the pain that they have caused, but do not expect remorse/regret for the affair. It was great, like high quality drugs, a new ****, no responsibility, no socks to wash, what's not to like?

The problem is, for the moment the guilt and the apologies aren't there yet in my case. In her head the affair is still a symptom of a malaise in the marriage, and therefore partly my fault. Will be discussing this tomorrow with the MC, but what the hell does she want? Am I supposed to apologise for making her take her knickers off FFS?

I still hope that it won't lead to divorce but I find myself feeling more distant with every passing day.


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## turnera

You need to be 100% honest with her. How it's affecting you, how you're thinking about your life AFTER her, the women you're thinking of. The secret about women cheating is that they can't imagine their husbands NOT wanting them.

Wake her up.


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## Chaparral

Typically, when a couple reconciles, they go at it like rabbits. Its called hysterical bonding. When a couple reconciles and the wayward spouse doesn't have sex with their spouse it is a huge redflag that they are staying faithful to their affair partner. It means the affair has gone underground. 

I can't think of one time here that a cheating wife cut off her husband that the affair wasnt still going on.

Has your sex life changed while the affair went on?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Chaparral said:


> Typically, when a couple reconciles, they go at it like rabbits. Its called hysterical bonding. When a couple reconciles and the wayward spouses doesn't have sex with their spouse it is a huge redflag that they are staying faithful to their affair partner. It means the affair has gone underground.
> 
> I can't think of one time here that a cheating wife cut off her husband that the affair wasnt still going on.
> 
> Has your sex life changed while the affair went on?


After DDay I did indeed want it twice a day and was getting it more often than normal. Since she was rediscovered in contact with him, told me our marriage was over, then did her u-turn, she's completely screwed up in her head, cries easily, and feels as sexy as a plank of wood. So the short answer is no, at the moment I'm not getting any! :laugh:


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## Satya

She's playing both you and the OM. She has only ever gotten what benefits her, from the beginning of your move. I don't think she has the capability of being a remorseful spouse. 

I honestly hope you don't lose your sanity before you realize it.


----------



## Chaparral

Florida_rosbif said:


> After DDay I did indeed want it twice a day and was getting it more often than normal. Since she was rediscovered in contact with him, told me our marriage was over, then did her u-turn, she's completely screwed up in her head, cries easily, and feels as sexy as a plank of wood. So the short answer is no, at the moment I'm not getting any! :laugh:


You said the posom thought he was reconciling with his wife. Sounds like he told your wife he was trying to save his family and essentially he was dumping your wife. That fits her wish to reconcile but lack of enthusiasm. 

Be aware that you simply might be plan b when plan a fell through. She may have come to the conclusion she has been played and now feels like a sl*t.


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## Satya

Florida, just so I can get some perspective here... 

Your wife had a 4-month long affair, and then you found out how long afterwards that she was still in contact with OM? 

in other words, what's the TOTAL time (that you know of) that she's been in an affair?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Satya said:


> Florida, just so I can get some perspective here...
> 
> Your wife had a 4-month long affair, and then you found out how long afterwards that she was still in contact with OM?
> 
> in other words, what's the TOTAL time (that you know of) that she's been in an affair?



The EA between them clearly started well before the PA started in June while I was away for work, how long before I can't say. Then beginning of September she announced that she wanted me to move out, go away and take a break. Much discussion ensued, I decided to man up and make things better, only to have her tell the truth about the affair on the 8th Sept, DDay.

In the days that followed she agreed to cut all contact with him, and did for a while. Then on the 15th Oct I discovered that they were back in telephone contact, DDay 2, and gave her an ultimatum, that lead to her requesting separation/divorce. He had been away in France for 3 weeks, finding himself supposedly.

Basically there has been no physical contact between them since around the beginning of September, just telephone. She seems to be over him now, and says that it was not going anywhere anyway, he is not the future. 

Of course she then did another uturn last week, again cut the telephone contact with him and says we have to work on the future.

I'm not sure that I want to go further. For this to work I suppose that I have to do the whole seduction thing again so that we find each other, but while she's not guilty or remorseful, as you can imagine I don't exactly feel like making an effort!


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## turnera

Wait a minute. HE is in France, and now SHE is going to France?


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## jld

It sounds like she has a good job, Fl. She can surely afford a divorce.

It sounds like you don't want the younger kids with you, and would like her to keep them.

You could tell her that you think a divorce is in both of your best interests, and that you will be moving back to the UK with the oldest child. You can restart your career, and she can continue hers.

I can understand why you do not want to try to seduce her. Can you understand why she may not be truly or consistently into it, either?


----------



## Satya

Florida_rosbif said:


> I'm not sure that I want to go further. For this to work I suppose that I have to do the whole seduction thing again so that we find each other, but while she's not guilty or remorseful, as you can imagine I don't exactly feel like making an effort!


If this had been a ONS or maybe a week long affair, and she was super remorseful, I'd say there's a good chance for recovery. 

But this was a long affair in my book... And compared to some we read about here that can span 10, 14, 20 years.... Any length of time can really make you wonder what was in the mind of the WS. 

To that point, I don't think she was confused. I don't think she was weak. I think she knew exactly what she was doing, and it was the opposite of loving. I'd be very, very doubtful of anything hopeful she may say. I think she just wants a comfortable plan B... AKA you.


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## turnera

Have we talked yet about you working? Women who support husbands very often lost respect for their SAHD, even if they don't want to or don't intend to. It's in our DNA. Surely there's something you could be doing to either get the work permit thing fixed or find some other legal way to earn money?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

turnera said:


> Have we talked yet about you working? Women who support husbands very often lost respect for their SAHD, even if they don't want to or don't intend to. It's in our DNA. Surely there's something you could be doing to either get the work permit thing fixed or find some other legal way to earn money?


Yep, this is clearly part of it, we discussed this at length with the MC today. One of my blockages has been money - when I work at my speciality I earn a lot of money. Given that my speciality is not required in Miami, finding another engineering job in a different field I was going to have to accept earning a quarter of what I'm used to, while doing a 9 to 5.

I also discovered when looking around me at investment opportunities that after over 25 years in my industry, I'm formatted. I'm not an entrepreneur that can easily reinvent myself. The work permit isn't the issue, I now have a green card.

The one option that was possible was to go to Houston to work, but I did years of leaving home at 5 Monday morning to catch a flight, returning at 10 Friday night, and it's a **** way to live. I didn't want to do that again.


----------



## turnera

Nah, you don't want to come here to Houston. It took me seven months after my layoff just to find a temporary, part-time job, and I'm pretty high up in my field.

So she and he are both going to be in France at the same time?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

turnera said:


> Nah, you don't want to come here to Houston. It took me seven months after my layoff just to find a temporary, part-time job, and I'm pretty high up in my field.
> 
> So she and he are both going to be in France at the same time?



No not at all, he's back here after his break in France and going nowhere, so no issues there.

Discussion with the MC was good I guess, a few truths came out but nothing radical. I don't see that it got us any closer to a decision though. As I said to the MC and my WS, I don't know if I'm prepared to do the necessary work to try to win back someone for whom I have lost all respect. She was willing to break my heart and crap on our family with no signs of remorse, that's just evil and why would I want that back?

Suddenly, after 7 weeks of denial, my WS said that she has remorse but has been to proud to say so, in the same situation again she wouldn't do what she did. Not sure if that's true or changes much, but there we are.

So she's off to Europe for 10 days and we both sleep on it, discuss when she gets back. I'm leaning in the "it's definitively ****ed" direction, but the least that I do is give it time.


----------



## farsidejunky

He is in Florida according to WHOM?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

farsidejunky said:


> He is in Florida according to WHOM?


His wife, no issues there. He doesn't have the money to be away again after his last 3 week sortie. My son saw him in his pickup yesterday too.

He is not my problem currently (that could change again of course), the issue is more about whether to work on the marriage or not.


----------



## Satya

I'd pay attention to how often she contacts you while in France. If she doesn't contact you or can't be bothered to give you comfort around what she's getting up to while there, it will say a lot.


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## azteca1986

Florida_rosbif said:


> Suddenly, after 7 weeks of denial, *my WS said that she has remorse but has been to proud to say so*, in the same situation again she wouldn't do what she did. Not sure if that's true or changes much, but there we are.


This is very promising, though I'm sure you won't see it as such. She has just admitted fault. Some waywards takes weeks if not months to get here. Some never get there at all.



> I'm leaning in the "it's definitively ****ed" direction, but the least that I do is give it time.


Again this is good. You need time to process things and being able to do this in your home for a few days (without the sight if your WW triggering you) could work in your favour. 

You don't have to come to any decision now (or in ten days time) anyway. And even when you do, you'll change you mind and back again. Over and over. It's not called the roller-coaster coaster for nothing.


----------



## anchorwatch

Florida, What was your impression of the MC?


----------



## turnera

Florida_rosbif said:


> He is not my problem currently (that could change again of course), the issue is more about whether to work on the marriage or not.


Florida, there's a reason we tell betrayed spouses to set up a list of requirements. It allows you to clearly communicate to her what it would take for you to be WILLING to stay married to her. And then it leaves it in HER hands as to whether she's willing to adhere to that list. Have we given you an example yet? It would look something like this:

I have all your passwords to all your electronics.
You hand over your electronics if I randomly ask to see them so I can verify you're not in contact, without giving me grief over it.
You keep attending MC with me until I'm satisfied.
You attend IC to figure out what's going on with you.
You write the OM a No Contact letter that I will approve and send myself (this is important psychologically).
You tell my parents (or siblings, if appropriate) about the affair and tell them you are working to make up for hurting me (also important psychologically).

You tell her you need these things and that you have a limited time frame in which you'll be considering whether to file for divorce or not. She's free to ignore your list, but you will take that as her answer that she's ready to divorce and you'll move forward. Then you back off and see what she does.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Thanks you Azteca, your kind words reassure me somehow.

Turnera, I hadn't thought of a list of requirements. It's true that putting a list of the minimum necessary on paper is an aid in making a decision. Will have a ponder.

After the visit to the MC I told my WS that I thought that our marriage was maybe screwed beyond redemption but that we'd wait until she comes back from France to talk again. Bizarrely we then ended up in bed and had great sex, so I'm now feeling a bit more relaxed. Nothing like emptying the tanks to put a smile on your face. )


----------



## Marc878

I'm thinking after dday 23 or so it may kinda sink in who you are married to???? Maybe????


----------



## Tron

How goes it FR?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Hey Tron

Well my wife is in France with family and friends at present, back next week. She's still on an emotional roller coaster as am I. Some days I'm in "divorce ASAP" mode, other days I'm thinking about the fact that I do still love her and I don't want to screw up my kids' lives any more than she has already managed to do.

The problem is actually having a clear understanding of your own motives. When I think of divorce, if I'm honest with myself the primary motivation is just to punish her, whatever the cost to me and the kids. That's not a rational approach and I am a very rational person, so the whole shoot from the hip thing is not for me. I think I just have to give it time and see how we get on, whether she stays NC with the OM, etc, so that any decision can be made with a cool head and the damage to the children limited as far as possible.

Saw my IC the other day and did a bit of cognitive therapy on my current need to verbally lash out just to hurt my wife. Among other things I did come to recognise what a miserable ****er I have become during 3 unhappy years in Miami having left my full time job behind. That in no way excuses what my WW did, but it does go some way to explaining it.

Anyway, have had a nice enough week looking after the kids, dogs and dealing with some paperwork. Have been cooking them nice meals and we're watching old horror films together in the evening once all homework obligations are dealt with. Still finding sleep very elusive, but from what I've read here that's pretty normal. Will update this thread when wife is back and we can talk about where we are going.

Thanks y'all, TAM has certainly helped me along the road so far!


----------



## jld

It is good that you can see your own hand in your troubles. That can be empowering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Hi, 

I see you have been reading and posting on other threads. That is great. You can see your situation more clearly though other threads.

On one post you stated see said "how can I regret something that I enjoyed"? How dud you avoid not walking out on the spot. How could she enjoy something that cause you such pain and destroyed her family. Jesus/budda how can anyone get past that. How is your oldest son doing? Is he thinking more clearly then you?

Have you contacted people about job opportunities? What are your divorce options at this point?


----------



## Tron

JohnA said:


> On one post you stated see said "how can I regret something that I enjoyed"? How dud you avoid not walking out on the spot. How could she enjoy something that cause you such pain and destroyed her family.


I think this is a normal and quite common initial response from a cheating spouse. Until a cheater actually feels and appreciates the consequences of their actions they can still 'enjoy' the feelings and memories of the sex that were part of the A.

For a truly remorseful WS, with time, consequences, empathy for the BS, and dealing daily with the emotional pain that they caused those 'enjoyable' feelings will change to 'the short term enjoyment was nowhere worth the pain it caused and I wish I hadn't done it'. And I think, in the long run that is really the best you can hope for as the BS.

Florida's WW hasn't had to deal with the $hitstorm long enough to get there IMO. She might get there eventually...she might not. And Florida may not stick with her long enough to get there regardless.


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## JohnA

Perhaps, but that comment will haunt them for years. It was a version of wife "dear do they pants make me look fat?" husband "not at all dear, for a hippo." Jesus that level of cruelty shows a lack of respect and indifference that is beyond the pale. 

Then she leaves for France with family that if they are like her mother thinks an affair is no big deal. If I were her I would have never left until my marriage was stable. 

Realy curious as to her attitude coming off the plane.

Ps; how was she at staying in touch with you and the children. What was the tone of the conversations and emails?


----------



## Tron

JohnA said:


> Perhaps, but that comment will haunt them for years. It was a version of wife "dear do they pants make me look fat?" husband "not at all dear, for a hippo." Jesus that level of cruelty shows a lack of respect and indifference that is beyond the pale.


Can't argue with you. Goes back to the catch 22..._do you want the truth as she understands it or do you want her to make you feel better? _ 



JohnA said:


> Then she leaves for France with family that if they are like her mother thinks an affair is no big deal. If I were her I would have never left until my marriage was stable.


This I totally agree with and don't really understand her thought process there. I guess it makes sense if she really doesn't know whether she wants to continue in the marriage or is still deep in the fog. 

If I was prepared to do anything to save my marriage, I certainly wouldn't be taking off on a trip to Europe for a couple weeks by myself. I'd be at home doing everything possible to make it up to my spouse.


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## JohnA

At this point the mother is a toxic friend.


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## JohnA

Hope all is well, did any of her family get caught up in the attack in Paris?


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## anchorwatch

Florida, is your family well?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Hi people

Thanks for the concern re. the Paris attacks. A couple who visited us here in Miami earlier in the year lost three friends who were at the death metal concert, and an acquaintance who we heard was still looking for his daughter has had her confirmed as deceased.

Situation here is difficult. It is strange to pretend to live as before, knowing that it is fundamentally changed. Seeing friends last night who also know the OM I was trying to have fun but failing miserably, so many things making me flash back to what has happened and the reality of the situation. I feel like the affair has sucked the capacity for joy out of me.

The jury is still out on whether we can have a future together as I don't know how I can forgive her, particularly given the lack of manifested remorse. Big discussions on how we could organise separation/divorce without me having to put the Atlantic between me and my children, no conclusion on that yet.

Eldest son is ok, though clearly a less joyful, talkative soul than before. Will get him to see an IC to help him process what he knows and hopefully avoid him having issues with future relationships.

I will update this thread when I feel that I have something useful to say on my progress, but between times I still skim the TAM threads and pick out useful titbits, commenting as I go if I have anything worth saying. Somehow the whole sharing process here, even if there is an element of wallowing in others misery, is cathartic and gives perspective.


----------



## JohnA

So, she is back to it was no big deal and you should just get over it? Cold very cold. Did you ever notice this element of her personality? 

As to custody, why do you assume she should have custody? You have a scentific background, challenging assumptions, finding work arounds are the norm. Question every thing. 

What do you want in a post divorce life? Don't list what you think will happen. List what would be idea.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

JohnA said:


> So, she is back to it was no big deal and you should just get over it? Cold very cold. Did you ever notice this element of her personality?
> 
> As to custody, why do you assume she should have custody? You have a scentific background, challenging assumptions, finding work arounds are the norm. Question every thing.
> 
> What do you want in a post divorce life? Don't list what you think will happen. List what would be idea.


Yes, she's very much in the "get over it already, you're focussing on the wrong thing if we are to have a future" mode. I think she just doesn't realise how profoundly her affair has affected me.

Re. custody, if I am going to go away to rebuild myself and my career, it would be extremely difficult to do so as a single dad. As you will understand, the ramifications of moving kids from country to country are compounded by the whole schooling thing, and at present they are finally stable in schools here in the US.

Hmm, listing my desires in a post-divorce world is a new idea to me. Will have to think about it, interesting exercise!


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## farsidejunky

No remorse.

There is no reconciliation without remorse, FR.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

farsidejunky said:


> No remorse.
> 
> There is no reconciliation without remorse, FR.


Well as the betrayed hubby I obviously agree big time with this, but my dear, cheating wife doesn't seem to get it despite me telling her repeatedly. Her focus is on whether we can work things out in the overall relationship, so can I become a more joyful person who she wants to be with? The affair, to her, is still partly my fault and merely a symptom of her dissatisfaction of where we are in our marriage, a minor issue if you like compared to the marital reconstruction required.

I did challenge her with the question of whether even the best case version of me would be enough for her now that she lives in the sun, sea and sand, holiday feeling of Miami. I am still the man she married so improvements would be limited to me being how I was before, i.e. I'm never going to start dressing in summery pastel colours and go dancing with the gay young things in the night clubs of Miami Beach, that was never my type of scene! Give me a dark pub with great beer and a pool table any day.

Currently the most restorative thing I've found is to play lots of golf with good friends, extremely therapeutic!


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## manfromlamancha

If she is showing no remorse, then you really need to tell Florida Frogs_Legs to fvck off!

If you need to rebuild yourself then do so. If the best place for your kids is Florida then so be it (although I would question this).

So what you are saying is that if you left, you would have to rebuild your career ??? Don't you already have a career ? All you would need to do is find a job wherever you want to be. My guess is that you would want to be as near as possible to your kids. However it may not be possible (if I remember, you are in Oil & Gas). So I am guessing Texas or Venezuela in the Americas or else the usual suspects in Europe or the Middle East.

For your own peace of mind and sense of pride, you need to kick her to the kerb. So divorce should not be a question in your mind. She is the one who has to work on the marriage if she wants to make it work else make it fait accompli. All you need to work on is the split, custody and support issues.

And see if you can get yourself back to these shores for a bit or recovery - as you know we have some brilliant women for therapeutic recovery


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## JohnA

She is 1/4 quarter right about where your focus should be. Adultery and issues in a marriage are two different things. The question to her is why should you try to work on the issues when she will commit adultery again? Unless there is remorse she will. 

Does she want to keep her family intact? Does she have any desire to continue to build a life with you? Does she have any tears for your pain? 

Please explore all your options. What would she say if your lawyer asked for primary custody, you in the home full time, she pays both child support and spousal support ? 

You have primary custody, you working back in Europe, she pays child support.


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## farsidejunky

She sounds incredibly shallow. I would let her go.


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## turnera

Florida_rosbif said:


> The affair, to her, is still partly my fault and merely a symptom of her dissatisfaction of where we are in our marriage, a minor issue if you like compared to the marital reconstruction required.


That's because she's not afraid you're going to leave her.


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## jld

A punitive approach is unlikely to work on your very intelligent wife, Fl. She has options, and she knows it.

I think your wife is giving you excellent insight, btw. If you want to preserve life as they know it for your children, it would be prudent to listen.


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## JohnA

Jid, huh???


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## manfromlamancha

The advice she is giving you is 

_If you continue to not listen to me or even sometimes fail to read my mind and you do not satisfy me, I will continue to fvck other men. Eventually I might drop you but currently it doesn't seem practical for the kids to do so.

And if you want to protect your children then you will get over this and get on with it because the chances of you pleasing me are very small so it is highly likely that I will continue to fvck other men. So please, please, please listen to what I have to say. Remember I am the one who is working (and I am intelligent) so at this moment in time, I have more options than you.

I hope you will not be as callous and brutal should you ever get to a point where you have more options than me.

Anyway the bottom line is I don't really want you so it is up to you if you want to stay in this. The other day when I thought about it, I changed my mind about having you move out because it would make more sense to continue with this marriage then cause disruption to the kids. Simply that. Remember the heart does not come into this decision.

Now hurry up and decide because I have my life to get on with and you are in the way at the moment. Now where did Gaston, that oaf, go ? _

Sounds like an intelligent woman alright.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

jld said:


> A punitive approach is unlikely to work on your very intelligent wife, Fl. She has options, and she knows it.
> 
> I think your wife is giving you excellent insight, btw. If you want to preserve life as they know it for your children, it would be prudent to listen.


Where you are right is that she IS very intelligent. She also feels that she has options - at the beginning of the affair she started, as I call it, "the ***** diet" and lost 25 lbs at a frightening rate. She lost weight around her thighs and ass that she's fought with (and lost!) for over 20 years. So she feels skinny and desirable now, though I actually think that she's gone too far and is no longer the woman that I married. Funnily enough she doesn't like it that I now call her "Skeletor"! :grin2:

As you say it all comes down to the kids - do we just try to rub along gently to keep the family unit intact or do I detonate the bomb that she created and **** off back to Europe, just saying "**** it, if the kids end up screwed up it's all her fault."? It's so damned hard to take the nuclear option - if Miami had any interest to me professionally or even in life style (other than golf), so that I'd be happy to stay here, then I think we'd already be separated and getting the divorce papers in order.

Decisions, decisions.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Nice one Manfromlamancha, your version of my wife's mental monologue made me smile, brutal though it was. I'm half ways tempted to send her a link to this thread so that she can peruse the responses that I have had to my initial posting. It wouldn't change anything I suspect, as she has not been trawling the Net looking for help with how to cope with the high grade cocaine of her affair.

No, the only one who has been reading and trying to find wisdom is the really ****ed up one, me! When I challenge her on transparency issues and when I outed her to our friends worldwide, her reaction has generally been along the lines of "You have to stop reading all this crap on the Net"!


----------



## manfromlamancha

By the way is Rosbif something she calls you or are you ok with name itself. I have heard it used on us by "friends" in Aix-en-Provence in a slightly derogatory manner. Hence my term "Frogs Legs'.

Anyway, you are right - it is a question of what you are prepared to do and more importantly put up with for the kids.

Is she a good mother ? In my eyes, a good mother doesn't sleep around. If you can handle visiting the kids across the pond or having them visit you on that basis, then get the hell out of there asap. Come to the land of good beer, formidable music, football, cricket, rugby, snooker, Strictly Come Dancing, pubs and just about every type of food/restaurant there is going. Also the ultimate sanctuary of sanity. Not to mention the Welsh Song, Scottish Fire, Irish Poetry and the English Roses (you do know I mean the women right ?). OK I'll stop the jingoism now.

Seriously, she is going to damage you longer term. You need to get out and let her face a bit of the music on her own. Lets see how self sufficient she is. Chances are that she will find another man soon there who will not be as enthusiastic about raising another man's sprigs. Your challenge now, should you accept it, is to come up with the best custody/visitation deal you can and have her sell the property, split the proceeds with you and off you go. You can, once you are settled offer to take the kids off her hands should she want to settle down with Gaston.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

The rosbif handle comes from me. As you say, the French use in a pejorative manner and I always took pleasure describing myself as a rosbif to see them squirm at the racist expression, more so as it gave me licence to call them "grenouilles", frogs.

She's been a good mum to the kids up until now, albeit a bit quick to fly off the handle with them. However, as you rightly say the consequences of her decision to have an affair impact the whole family unit so the kids are going to suffer. Just more evidence if any was needed that people are no longer thinking rationally by the time they take an affair to the physical level - my assessment of the consequences when the truth came out seemed to take my wife by surprise. Silly cow.


----------



## JohnA

You have begun to own some of your issues in the marriage. But I could then argue a more intelligent and empathic wife would have have taken steps to up you adjust to a new way of life. You - the male - gave up your career to further her's. But you as a guy will not say that, perhaps for the same reason you assume she should have custody.

Look for every point you make why it might be a negative to your sons for you to have custody, I can use the exact same point why it is a negative for her, and then raise you one. I asked you about a list of post divorce life. Do the same for custody. 

I have a time consuming career. Er she has a time consuming career.
The kids would be in a new environment. Er my kids raised in Maimi
Please add on

Then stop and think man who looks beyond himself vs woman manfroml described, 

When she sees herself having to pay child support and losing custody perhaps she will wake up.

DON'T PUT THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE needs to be your motto. Yes the issues need fixing, but the affair is the fire in the kitchen right now. 

If she cannot show empathy for this, how can you settle for her.


----------



## JohnA

Also could you provide more info on her mom? You mentioned she is an adulator and married twice. Which husband, if either, is her father? Her mother sounds like a proud member of the "me" generation.

I recall one poster who's WS showed no remorse until her dad revealed her mother commited adultery and how it devastated him.

Finally you seemed to have spent your adulthood in her worid. What is your relationship with your family? What is her relationship with your family?


----------



## jld

Fl, if you know you cannot change and meet her emotional needs, the marriage is going to fail, anyway. She is evolving, and you need to keep up with her if it is to work.

I think getting a job would be empowering for you. Letting your kids decide who to live with in the event of a divorce would probably help them feel like they have some control over their lives, too.

My husband once said that in marriage, the partners need to grow together. He also believes that an affair is the _consequence_ of trouble in a marriage, not the _cause._ It is a symptom of greater dysfunction. Address the dysfunction if you want to "affair-proof" your marriage.

You and I are both married to some pretty smart French people, Fl. I think we would both be wise to listen to them.


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> My husband once said that in marriage, the partners need to grow together. He also believes that an affair is the _consequence_ of trouble in a marriage, not the _cause._ It is a symptom of greater dysfunction. Address the dysfunction if you want to "affair-proof" your marriage.
> 
> You and I are both married to some pretty smart French people, Fl. I think we would both be wise to listen to them.


No offense to Dug, as I respect his advice, but I am not sure how much "you aren't meeting my needs, haven't for a long time, my French boyfriend ****** me so good, and I liked it" the OP can stomach.

Give Skeletor the divorce she seems to want. Cause it doesn't appear to me that R is in the cards. The R route as it sits now will only lead to more pain for you from this remorseless WW.


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> No offense to Dug, as I respect his advice, but I am not sure how much "you aren't meeting my needs, haven't for a long time, my French boyfriend ****** me so good, and I liked it" the OP can stomach.
> 
> Give Skeletor the divorce she seems to want. Cause it doesn't appear to me that R is in the cards. The R route as it sits now will only lead to more pain for you from this remorseless WW.


I don't know that it was about sex. That guy was meeting some emotional need that Fl was not.

I think he might be able to change that. If he wants to.


----------



## Tron

Florida,

What I am really concerned about is...a divorce where you leave the W and kids to go back to England will devastate your kids. 

You have been the primary caregiver for a couple of years now and you are just going to disappear out of their lives? 

For all intents and purposes they will no longer have a father. You absolutely have to do better. 

There has to be some other way or compromise. Are there any oil and gas jobs you can take where you go international or shift back and forth on 2-4 week schedules? Or find some other engineering related job in So Florida?


----------



## JohnA

Jid, while I think in the long term you are right, never the less you are missing two points:

An affair is so damaging to to the BS they are have difficultly moving past it. This is on the WS to provide the emotional support and framework to help the BS.

While you spoke of her emotional needs, what about his? What/how can she support his?

Again your approach is putting the cart in front of the horse. At this point it sounds she like she really does not care one way or another if the marriage fails. 

While your husband may be a very smart French man, at this point I think his French wife is being as dense as a bar of steel. And that is not a very smart thing.


----------



## convert

Florida_rosbif said:


> Yep, she is. A star on TAM sent me the link to a TED TALK on infidelity. The speaker, who had very objective and informed views on the matter, said that the betrayer should be sorry and guilty for the pain that they have caused, but do not expect remorse/regret for the affair. It was great, like high quality drugs, a new ****, no responsibility, no socks to wash, what's not to like?
> 
> The problem is, for the moment the guilt and the apologies aren't there yet in my case. In her head the affair is *still a symptom of a malaise in the marriage, and therefore partly my fault.* Will be discussing this tomorrow with the MC, but what the hell does she want? Am I supposed to apologise for making her take her knickers off FFS?
> 
> I still hope that it won't lead to divorce but I find myself feeling more distant with every passing day.


She sees the affair as no big deal
and It seems that you are/were/ARE just as unhappy in this same marriage, So if you had an affair would she see it as NO BIG DEAL, and certainly PARTLY HER FAULT.

Could she see/comprehend the shoe on the other foot?


----------



## jld

JohnA said:


> Jid, while I think in the long term you are right, never the less you are missing two points:
> 
> An affair is so damaging to to the BS they are have difficultly moving past it. This is on the WS to provide the emotional support and framework to help the BS.
> 
> While you spoke of her emotional needs, what about his? What/how can she support his?
> 
> Again your approach is putting the cart in front of the horse. At this point it sounds she like she really does not care one way or another if the marriage fails.
> 
> While your husband may be a very smart French man, at this point I think his French wife is being as dense as a bar of steel. And that is not a very smart thing.


Not all BH are the same, John. Some may indeed need to be nurtured by their wives in the way you describe. And if the wife is willing, good enough. 

But some BH can step back from the emotion and look objectively at their hand in the troubles. They identify the needs they were not meeting and get to work meeting them. These men are in a very good position to lead the reconciliation of their marriages.

I think Fl is in a good position to learn from his wife. She is smart, or she would not have the position she does in her company. And she obviously gets how to rebuild the marriage.

Again, he just needs to listen to her counsel. She should not need to return home to her mom to receive compassion and empathy. That should come from her husband. 

Maybe my husband can comment on this after work tonight. Fl's wife and Dug seem to see this the same way. I don't know if their being French is the common link, or if it is something else.


----------



## jld

convert said:


> She sees the affair as no big deal
> and It seems that you are/were/ARE just as unhappy in this same marriage, So if you had an affair would she see it as NO BIG DEAL, and certainly PARTLY HER FAULT.


She might not even care at this point.


----------



## convert

jld said:


> She might not even care at this point.


good point maybe Op should ask her.

I have never advocated a revenge affairs, but if the first affair was from problems in the marriage that was the Betrayed spouse fault then certainly the revenge affair is the fault of the original wayward spouse.

it has to go both ways.


----------



## jld

convert said:


> good point maybe Op should ask her.
> 
> I have never advocated a revenge affairs, but if the first affair was from problems in the marriage that was the Betrayed spouse fault then certainly the revenge affair is the fault of the original wayward spouse.


I don't think an RA would help anything. I think it would make her have even less respect for him. And his kids would undoubtedly be disappointed.


----------



## ButtPunch

No remorse....Divorce her and take the kids since you are primary caregiver and she
is the breadwinner. 

Don't waste your time with an unremorseful cheater. 

Plenty of honest faithful women out there.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> No remorse....Divorce her and take the kids since you are primary caregiver and she
> is the breadwinner.
> 
> Don't waste your time with an unremorseful cheater.
> 
> Plenty of honest faithful women out there.


That are not the mother of your children.

Divorce will be complicated, Fl. Your kids will not escape the consequences of their parents' actions.

But divorce _is_ an option.


----------



## convert

Florida_rosbif said:


> Yes, she's very much in the "get over it already, you're focussing on the wrong thing if we are to have a future" mode. *I think she just doesn't realise how profoundly her affair has affected me.*
> 
> Re. custody, if I am going to go away to rebuild myself and my career, it would be extremely difficult to do so as a single dad. As you will understand, the ramifications of moving kids from country to country are compounded by the whole schooling thing, and at present they are finally stable in schools here in the US.
> 
> Hmm, listing my desires in a post-divorce world is a new idea to me. Will have to think about it, interesting exercise!


sometimes they never "get it" until it happens to them.


----------



## convert

jld said:


> I don't think an RA would help anything. I think it would make her have even less respect for him. And his kids would undoubtedly be disappointed.


I don't know, *she sees affairs "as no big deal" it shouldn't change how she feel about him.*
as for the kids, yes they would probably be disappointed, as of now, only the oldest know.
are you saying they all should know? and maybe they should, so they can be disappointed at the right person.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> That are not the mother of your children.
> 
> Divorce will be complicated, Fl. Your kids will not escape the consequences of their parents' actions.
> 
> But divorce _is_ an option.


You are setting a bad example for your children by tolerating a cake eating cheater. 

Just cause she gave birth doesn't make her a good mother. You owe her nothing. Your children may be better off without this kind of selfishness in their lives half the time. 

Divorce is a lot less complicated than the fu*ked up mess of dysfunction you are currently living.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Jid,

Thank you for your response. While I understand your answer I am not sure you understand my thoughts. I have a couple of thoughts but let's start with 

My point is she has deeply harmed her spouse, yer she refuses to acknowledge it. If the husband because he feels his emotional needs are not being meant enters an affair next week, what would you say to her? 

Marriage is a two way street, what about his emotional needs, what responsibilty does she have for meeting them. 

Inresting fact (sorry no link) men in his position are far more likely to have an affair then the wife. My bottom line is she should have separated before the affair, demanded MC, stayed faithful and then divorce. If she had done this, the "smart" thing, Fl would have no one to Blame but himself. And if he had posted under these conditions I would advise him to accept the fault, grow, and try not to ruin his next marriage.


----------



## JohnA

PS the smart thing is not to make a big problem into a huge problem. In most cases you are right as to the cause of an affair. But that does not change the fact an affair is the stupid answer to a hard question. 

Her stupid answer has created a chasm in the marriage. The question is how CAN SHE FIX IT.


----------



## jld

convert said:


> I don't know, *she sees affairs "as no big deal" it shouldn't change how she feel about him.*
> as for the kids, yes they would probably be disappointed, as of now, only the oldest know.
> are you saying they all should know? and maybe they should, so they can be disappointed at the right person.


I think it will all come out. And I think eventually kids see both sides.


----------



## bruce123

Florida_rosbif said:


> Hi everyone, I’ve been lurking on this site for a about a month now, reading the forums and sucking up pearls of wisdom to help me through my current problems. It now feels like time for me to lay out what's been happening to me and to see what you people think of it looking from the outside.
> 
> I’m British, but lived for many years in France with my French wife. Just over 3 years ago we moved the whole family (3 kids + dog) to Miami, to follow my wife’s career. I left my full time work behind, and since coming here I have only worked occasionally as a consultant, flying abroad each time for one week missions. Unfortunately my industry doesn’t exist in Miami.
> 
> Florida is not my idea of fun, too damned hot and flat, but to my wife this seemed like paradise. As a result of not working full time and being a house husband in a place I don’t like I’ve been unhappy, falling back on being a good dad to my kids, cooking, walking the dogs, golf, etc.
> 
> Last time I was away for work in Paris, my wife cheated on me with a french man in our group of friends, someone struggling with his own marital problems. He’s full of energy but largely uneducated, an aggressive drunk who I have come close to fighting with on a couple of occasions when he outstayed his welcome at my house and had to be physically ejected.
> 
> This was the start of a 4 month affair, with all the lies that are required to hide such carryings on. About 6 weeks ago my wife suddenly confronted me and said that she wanted me to move out, saying that my unhappiness in Miami was dragging her down. I was very upset, and after a sleepless night going over it in my mind I told her that I couldn’t do that, my responsibility is to my children and that I would keep soldiering on making the best of it. So began discussions on how we could make our marriage work, with her telling me that she’d been unhappy with me for years and that I needed to be more fun to be with. She was also feeling pressure from work, suddenly being the primary wage earner after 20 years of that being my role.
> 
> She started seeing a therapist, and after a few days lost in a dark hole I decided to man up, change my life and make the best of Miami. As I said to her, this place is very far removed from my dream life, but going away to have my dream life without my family wouldn’t work either. I was very positive for a week, taking her out and sharing more with her, trying to rebuild our rapport. Then the bombshell – the other man had told his wife what had been going on, apparently in an attempt to force my wife to make a decision and leave me. She then felt obliged to tell me about the affair that they had been having. Coming from 23 years together and 100% trust, needless to say I was devastated. The usual BS (having read plenty of stories now on TAM) followed, it was my fault that she’d had an affair, she had no regrets because it had been so good, etc.
> 
> I have never experienced such pain, physical and mental. Impossible to sleep, woken at 2 in the morning by unwanted porn films in my head of her with him, so tired after a few weeks of that you become an automaton, loss of appetite and so on. The strange thing was the galloping libido, I wanted her physically all the time, part of the requirement to confirm that I was still a man. Needless to say, she found this difficult too as she was completely elsewhere in her head and has always had a lower sex drive than me in any case.
> 
> We agreed to work on our marriage and I started seeing a therapist too. One of my preconditions was that she cut all links to the other man, not allowed to see him physically and no further telephone contact, to which she agreed. All our family (except the kids) were made aware of what had happened and the difficulties that we were trying to overcome. I also made contact with the other man’s wife and we compared notes, tying down the timeline of their affair.
> 
> Over the next month we talked a lot, sometimes making love, and generally waiting for time to help me get over my broken heart. My therapist helped me to cope, explaining to me that the affair was not my fault, that that had been her bad decision, but that I was partly responsible for problems in the relationship prior to it, completely logical to me.
> 
> For reasons that I won't go into our eldest child (17 yo) is aware of what his mother did. He's found it hard to cope with, but has been really supportive of me, his anguished father!
> 
> So just over a week ago I texted the other man’s wife to say that I hoped she was doing ok. She immediately called me, saying that she was preparing divorce appears and had been checking phone records. These showed that my wife was back in contact with the other man, long phone calls, text messages, etc. All the pain came flooding back and I confronted my wife saying that she had been supposed to cut all links and that she had been lying to me again when I periodically asked if there had been any contact. She said that it was innocent, just seeing how the other one was coping and so on. I told her that this was just the emotional affair continuing and that she she was playing me for a fool, the physical affair would end up starting again and that she had to make a decision.
> 
> Boom! She announced separation and divorce and suddenly the relationship between us was cold as hell, the ice witch and the bitter husband. Her best friend was visiting when all this happened, so I asked her what she thought. Should I be fighting to save us, was there still hope? She said no, your wife’s decision is made, just accept it and organise your life as necessary. So another couple of days of being a black hole. Cold, logistics discussions with my wife lead to the conclusion that the least damaging for the kids would be to rent an apartment and alternate weeks away from the family, so they could stay in the family home. We would then sell the family home, she would buy a smaller place for her and the kids and I would take my money to do what I want.
> 
> After the two dark days I suddenly perked up, feeling that I could see the way out. For me alternate weeks in an apartment would mean going on fishing trips, freedom to go to bars as a single guy, time in the gym and so on. Later on a return to Europe to stay with family while I emotionally rebuilt, pick up my career and move on. Selfishly I said to myself that even if that put the Atlantic between me and my children, there was no way that I could stay in Miami as it has become toxic for me. If my kids ended up screwed up, that would be my wife’s fault too. Following bits of TAM strategy, I was in full 180 mode with my wife, strong and happy, a bit of sardonic humour, and informed our friends all over the world by email about what she she had done and the apparent death of our marriage. She didn’t like that.
> 
> So 3 days ago we went visiting single bedroom apartments with a realtor friend. Depressing as it it made impending separation very real, I think we were both walking around with knots in our stomachs. Again when we talked I was telling her that continued contact even by phone with the other man meant that it could never work. I also told her that separation was final, no reconciliation possible, because her first week in the apartment he would be with her and there was no going back from that.
> 
> We went home together, kids still at school, and I could see that she was emotionally at the end of the line and very tired. She said that she was going for a nap, and I just got on with my life dealing with emails and so on. 20 minutes later she comes downstairs and announces that I am right, she will cut all contact with the other man, it has been messing with her head, and we should work forwards together. I was astounded at the sudden u-turn, kind of happy but also very wary.
> 
> Since then we have reassured the kids, rather than informing them of the separation as originally planned. But now I find myself in this weird position. Again I am set up for her to lie to me, repick up contact with the other man without me knowing, or to suddenly announce in weeks/months time that it's over, i.e. becoming the victim all over again. I’m so cynical now and find it hard to believe anything that she says, so not reassured. Equally, given how screwed up she is at the moment I guess that I’m consigning myself to months of no sex life while she continues to mourn the end of the affair and tries to find herself again. I think that one of the turning points was when she spoke to our youngest (12yo) the night before we visited the apartments. She told him that mum and dad weren’t getting on very well and he cut her short to say that if we divorce he’ll break both his legs and run away!  He wasn’t clear in what order he would do this, but I could see that it affected her deeply, maybe she started to understand the consequences of her “bit of fun” for the family!
> 
> An observation on our communication over the past month is partly my perception of our different moral values. She is French, so having an affair is not a big deal in a way. For me it's huge. I discovered in our talks that for her the big issue is the problems in our marriage, the affair is a tiny detail. For me our marital problems are all minor and fixable, but the affair is a huge, black monolith of granite weighing on my heart. This means that we talk at completely different levels.
> 
> So, firstly I apologise for this huge monologue and I hope that some of you have been willing to persevere and wade through it. Secondly, do any of you have any insight on what might be the way forward? Do I take her at face value, risking a third knife between my shoulder blades at a later date? Obviously for the sake of the children I feel an obligation to try again, but I was accepting separation in my head and now feel like the stronger of us because I can see the way out. Unfortunately to go forwards I’ll just have to believe someone who’s been lying for me to months, her phone is a professional one so I have no access to call records, and I’ll be back to wondering every time that she goes to the gym or elsewhere, “Is she seeing him again?”. You understand my problems with going back to a life filled with suspicion.
> 
> Finally, thank you for the support over the past 6 weeks. You didn't know that you were helping, but the lurking on here reading other peoples' stories and perspectives has helped me to find my way out of the deep, black hole of the cuckold.


well it very simple if you wanna know if he or she is cheating on you well why not check his or her facebook or twitter or whatsapp by hacking it and i can do that if you dont mind and if you ready let do that just for you to know if he or she is cheating and you can get back to me through my email (bruceavila8323 @ gmail com)


----------



## JohnA

I also think that FL is affair bait and needs to guard against this. Read F-102 post and you will see my point. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/41508-emotional-affairs-sob-story.html

If I was a friend of the wife I would tell her to watch out for the SAHM down the street if she valued her marriage.


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> I think it will all come out. And I think eventually kids see both sides.


Unless there is abuse, I don't believe this. 

The 100's of threads that I have read here over the past 3 years indicate to me that the kids will normally blame the spouse that destroyed the M, i.e. had the affair.


----------



## convert

JohnA said:


> PS the smart thing is not to make a big problem into a huge problem. In most cases you are right as to the cause of an affair. But that does not change the fact an affair is the stupid answer to a hard question.
> 
> Her stupid answer has created a chasm in the marriage. *The question is how CAN SHE FIX IT.*


The OP has said she is in get over it mode, so I guess her answer to the question "how can she fix it"---- is to try and rug sweep, (the affair part at least)


----------



## jld

JohnA said:


> Hi Jid,
> 
> Thank you for your response. While I understand your answer I am not sure you understand my thoughts. I have a couple of thoughts but let's start with
> 
> My point is she has deeply harmed her spouse, yer she refuses to acknowledge it. If the husband because he feels his emotional needs are not being meant enters an affair next week, what would you say to her?
> 
> Marriage is a two way street, what about his emotional needs, what responsibilty does she have for meeting them.
> 
> Inresting fact (sorry no link) men in his position are far more likely to have an affair then the wife. My bottom line is she should have separated before the affair, demanded MC, stayed faithful and then divorce. If she had done this, the "smart" thing, Fl would have no one to Blame but himself. And if he had posted under these conditions I would advise him to accept the fault, grow, and try not to ruin his next marriage.


That certainly would have been a healthier path, John. I really wish she would have done something like that. Affairs really muddy the waters.

At this point, I am guessing a RA by him would sink the marital ship. She is staying for her kids right now. I do think that with some work on his part she could end up falling back in love with him. And then she _would_ care about identifying and meeting his emotional needs.

But at this point, I just do not see her taking responsibility for putting the marriage back together. And if he needs that from her, for her to be the leader, then I think they are likely headed towards divorce.


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> Unless there is abuse, I don't believe this.
> 
> The 100's of threads that I have read here over the past 3 years indicate to me that the kids will normally blame the spouse that destroyed the M, i.e. had the affair.


My dad cheated on my mom. As many things as I think he did wrong in the marriage, I know my mom was not perfect, either. They each had their side.


----------



## Tron

convert said:


> She sees the affair as no big deal
> and It seems that you are/were/ARE just as unhappy in this same marriage, So if you had an affair would she see it as NO BIG DEAL, and certainly PARTLY HER FAULT.
> 
> I do not advocate revenge affairs but the more I read, I just don't know


Curiously enough, I had the same thought earlier this morning. 

And if it goes the RA route, Florida would be openly brazen about it. 

MAD


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> My dad cheated on my mom. As many things as I think he did wrong in the marriage, I know my mom was not perfect, either. They each had their side.


Did they stay together?


----------



## convert

jld said:


> That certainly would have been a healthier path, John. I really wish she would have done something like that. Affairs really muddy the waters.
> 
> *At this point, I am guessing a RA by him would sink the marital ship. *She is staying for her kids right now. I do think that with some work on his part she could end up falling back in love with him. And then she _would_ care about identifying and meeting his emotional needs.
> 
> But at this point, I just do not see her taking responsibility for putting the marriage back together. And if he needs that from her, for her to be the leader, then I think they are likely headed towards divorce.


I am not so sure, again she see affairs as no big deal albeit maybe she is only thinking of her affair when she said this:roll eyes:

It would be a good question to put to her.


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> Did they stay together?


They did not separate or divorce. They did live apart.


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> They did not separate or divorce. They did live apart.


Permanently? OR for how long? And how old were you?


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> Permanently? OR for how long? And how old were you?


I was mid 30s. They lived separately towards the end of his life.

He may have been cheating earlier on. He was a HD male married to an extremely LD female. It was a mismatch.


----------



## JohnA

Thank you Jid for your last response. I think we are in agreement overall. Except a would say instead of mudding the waters, I would say an affair is like using gasoline to put outna kitchen fire.


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> I was mid 30s. They lived separately towards the end of his life.
> 
> He may have been cheating earlier on. He was a HD male married to an extremely LD female. It was a mismatch.


The circumstances aren't the same jld. You were an adult when your parents separated. As an adult you realized that the issues in that marriage ran both ways. Both created the dysfunction. 

I guarantee you Florida's young kids will NOT see it that way. They are kids and it is internally quite simple for them. Their mom cheated on their dad and destroyed the marriage and now they don't get to live or see their dad anymore. It is going to F them up big time. Sad and angry...all the time.


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> The circumstances aren't the same jld. You were an adult when your parents separated. As an adult you realized that the issues in that marriage ran both ways. Both created the dysfunction.
> 
> I guarantee you Florida's young kids will NOT see it that way. They are kids and it is internally quite simple for them. Their mom cheated on their dad and destroyed the marriage and now they don't get to live or see their dad anymore. It is going to F them up big time. Sad and angry...all the time.


I said _eventually_ they would see it, Tron. 

And I think it is risky to underestimate children's loyalty to their mother, at any age.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Florida_rosbif

JohnA said:


> Also could you provide more info on her mom? You mentioned she is an adulator and married twice. Which husband, if either, is her father? Her mother sounds like a proud member of the "me" generation.
> 
> I recall one poster who's WS showed no remorse until her dad revealed her mother commited adultery and how it devastated him.
> 
> Finally you seemed to have spent your adulthood in her worid. What is your relationship with your family? What is her relationship with your family?


Her mother, a lovely lady in many ways, was a young virgin chosen by a military man returning from the Algerian war as his wife. However, having married her and got her pregnant he went back to his philandering. After a couple of kids she started getting her own back and sleeping around too. They did everyone, their partners brothers and sisters, the neighbours, it sounds like they were really enjoying the '70s!

It ended in divorce eventually, and her mother then divorced again from the second hubby. My wife was always a bit traumatised by the way that her mother talked about sex, treating her daughter like a best friend who could be told all the details. Nevertheless, when I see how lightly my wife treats the issue of her having an affair I can't help but think that role models that she grew up with might be partly responsible for her attitude.

Wife gets on fine with my family, or at least did up until now. My mother takes a pretty dim view of her recent carryings on but I guess that's normal, she's worried about me!


----------



## Florida_rosbif

jld said:


> Fl, if you know you cannot change and meet her emotional needs, the marriage is going to fail, anyway. She is evolving, and you need to keep up with her if it is to work.
> 
> I think getting a job would be empowering for you. Letting your kids decide who to live with in the event of a divorce would probably help them feel like they have some control over their lives, too.
> 
> My husband once said that in marriage, the partners need to grow together. He also believes that an affair is the _consequence_ of trouble in a marriage, not the _cause._ *It is a symptom of greater dysfunction.* Address the dysfunction if you want to "affair-proof" your marriage.
> 
> You and I are both married to some pretty smart French people, Fl. I think we would both be wise to listen to them.


I agree that it's a symptom, but that doesn't alter how destructive it is. It's ****ed me up so badly that I'm obsessed by it and don't think that I can get over it, so the whole issue of "affair proofing" is shutting the stable door after the horse has already gone AWOL.

Smart French people or not, if I can't get over the affair then the marriage is dead in the water.


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> I agree that it's a symptom, but that doesn't alter how destructive it is. It's ****ed me up so badly that I'm obsessed by it and don't think that I can get over it, so the whole issue of "affair proofing" is shutting the stable door after the horse has already gone AWOL.
> 
> Smart French people or not,* if I can't get over the affair then the marriage is dead in the water*.


I agree with that.


----------



## ButtPunch

Florida_rosbif said:


> I agree that it's a symptom, but that doesn't alter how destructive it is. It's ****ed me up so badly that I'm obsessed by it and don't think that I can get over it, so the whole issue of "affair proofing" is shutting the stable door after the horse has already gone AWOL.
> 
> Smart French people or not, if I can't get over the affair then the marriage is dead in the water.


She isn't even sorry. 

You chose a bad one. 

It happens to the best of us.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Tron said:


> Florida,
> 
> What I am really concerned about is...a divorce where you leave the W and kids to go back to England will devastate your kids.
> 
> You have been the primary caregiver for a couple of years now and you are just going to disappear out of their lives?
> 
> For all intents and purposes they will no longer have a father. You absolutely have to do better.
> 
> There has to be some other way or compromise. Are there any oil and gas jobs you can take where you go international or shift back and forth on 2-4 week schedules? Or find some other engineering related job in So Florida?


Agree that this is the sticking point. I have been working on my wife with the idea of moving away from this god forsaken place, but she understandably doesn't want to move to only take our problems with us, i.e. we've got to know what's happening to our couple first.

I don't want to divorce and be obliged to continue to live in Miami, so rotation work that brings me back here during the time off just doesn't do it for me.

Last night I thought of another scenario, where we move away from here knowing that we are divorcing. Buy two smaller houses wherever we go and manage the children in that manner. I'll be raising this idea with her when she gets back in a couple of days, but I'm sure that she won't like it! Leave a place she loves and the local friends, to go and be a newly divorced woman in a new location, this isn't going to appeal to her!

It really depends how seriously she takes the question of minimising the consequences of her affair on the children. If she insists on staying here and I refuse to, it isn't going to be easy.

And, to add to the misery my industry is royally ****ed at the moment, maybe it'll be back to normal by 2017 but short term there is no good news. Exchanged mails with a buddy in the UK last night, oil and gas is screwed there too, so no good news.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

convert said:


> She sees the affair as no big deal
> and It seems that you are/were/ARE just as unhappy in this same marriage, So if you had an affair would she see it as NO BIG DEAL, and certainly PARTLY HER FAULT.
> 
> Could she see/comprehend the shoe on the other foot?


I actually had an emotional affair about 7 years ago. I fell for a single girl that I had been working closely with and was infatuated. Before I so much as tried to kiss the girl in question I told my wife everything, saying I was lost, help me, etc. That worked ok, the girl in question left the company and life went on as normal.

In my mind, before my wife's affair and all my reading on TAM and elsewhere, I thought that I'd behaved honourably in the circumstances. However, it does seem that on TAM having an EA is treated as just about as bad as a PA, so I suppose that I should feel bad about it. Somehow, from my perspective if there is no sex then everything can still be fixed, it's not the end of the world.

However, my EA was no doubt a symptom too. As I have told my wife recently, the lack of tenderness in our marriage and the insufficient sex have taken their toll. I have always been the instigator of making love, and so have always been the one that gets rejected. Over recent years the solution of having a wank in the shower has felt increasingly like a big waste.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

convert said:


> I am not so sure, again she see affairs as no big deal albeit maybe she is only thinking of her affair when she said this:roll eyes:
> 
> It would be a good question to put to her.


About 3 weeks after DDay, wallowing in the pain, I actually suggested this to her. I said that as we seemed to have different moral values on the issue of extra-marital sex, maybe if I reduced myself to her moral level by humping around a bit it would help.

She seemed bemused but unenthusiastic! I then researched on line the wisdom of RAs, and decided that it would be a waste of time for the following reasons:

- going out and finding random hotties to boff is no where near as fulfilling as a real affair with the drawn out build up to it finally going physical.
- an RA makes the original WS feel like there is no longer any need to feel guilty because the other partner did it too.
- if/when the marriage ends in meltdown and the kids are told, I would far rather have the moral high ground so that if blame is to be apportioned, it is clear where it lies.


----------



## Tron

Besides not having the EA in the first place, you did the next best thing by telling your W and not pursuing the A any further. Regardless, you both moved on.

It is indicative however of an intimate disconnect between the 2 of you. 

Sorry to say, but unfortunately there isn't any good O&G news even over here in TX. :frown2:


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Yeah I know, Houston is in fracking meltdown hell. Friends in Australia tell me tha the job market in Perth is screwed too. Bad news all round.


----------



## happy as a clam

OP, have you considered the fact that your wife may very well have a burner phone and is still in contact with the OM? You would have no way of knowing unless you bust her out with the VARs.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

happy as a clam said:


> OP, have you considered the fact that your wife may very well have a burner phone and is still in contact with the OM? You would have no way of knowing unless you bust her out with the VARs.


I really believe that it's over with the OM, but am toying with the idea of a couple of VARs. I figure that even if I find no evidence of further affair action, these will give me some insight into what is going on her head as I will be privy to her conversations with friends and mother.

However, it does feel like a grubby intrusion on her privacy. I suppose that I have to take the attitude that she no longer has the right to privacy!


----------



## ButtPunch

Florida_rosbif said:


> I really believe that it's over with the OM, but am toying with the idea of a couple of VARs. I figure that even if I find no evidence of further affair action, these will give me some insight into what is going on her head as I will be privy to her conversations with friends and mother.
> 
> However, it does feel like a grubby intrusion on her privacy. I suppose that I have to take the attitude that she no longer has the right to privacy!


Why bother? You know she cheated. She isn't sorry. Why are you still there is the question? I am amazed at the abuse some people will take.


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> However, it does feel like a grubby intrusion on her privacy.


Because it is.

Don't lower yourself, Fl. Come out of this with your self respect intact. If you feel the need to snoop, just divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

Florida_rosbif said:


> However, it does feel like a grubby intrusion on her privacy. I suppose that I have to take the attitude that she no longer has the right to privacy!


Grubby intrusion on her privacy? Hardly. Your second statement (above) is correct. She forfeited her rights to privacy when she chose to drag someone else into your marriage.


----------



## JohnA

So she s still in France? When will she be home?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

JohnA said:


> So she s still in France? When will she be home?


Nope, returned from France last week. Quick trip to Colorado, back on Wednesday. It's actually on the list of places that I'd like to live and have been pushing to move to, we'll see what she thinks of it on her return.


----------



## Nucking Futs

I'm not sure exactly how long you've been married but I think I read it's over 20 years. Just an fyi, if you divorce in Florida permanent alimony is on the table.


----------



## JohnA

Can you bottom line this for me.

Does she still want to be married to YOU?

Why ?


----------



## manfromlamancha

Florida_rosbif said:


> I really believe that it's over with the OM, but am toying with the idea of a couple of VARs. I figure that even if I find no evidence of further affair action, these will give me some insight into what is going on her head as I will be privy to her conversations with friends and mother.
> 
> However, it does feel like a grubby intrusion on her privacy. I suppose that I have to take the attitude that she no longer has the right to privacy!


Grubby intrusion ? Are you kidding me ? This is war! She is destroying you here and you are worried about intruding on a woman who will fvck other men at will, tell you she enjoyed it and to get on with it, all the while rubbing in your face the fact that she has a better job!?!?

When you do divorce, this might enable you to do so from a position of strength!


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## manfromlamancha

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm not sure exactly how long you've been married but I think I read it's over 20 years. Just an fyi, if you divorce in Florida permanent alimony is on the table.


Given that she is the breadwinner now, this would be permanent alimony for you!!! Yay!!!

You might have to live in Florida, playing golf in the Keys, putting up with the weather though. I am sure you can manage to import some English beer and get a dartboard. Satellite TV or the Internet to watch the footy, rugby, cricket whatever! Or even become a beach bum! No shortage of women (don't move any of them in though or else your funds will be cut short). And she gets to play the part of the intelligent French career woman. Win win non?

And being near to the kids all the while.


----------



## convert

happy as a clam said:


> Grubby intrusion on her privacy? Hardly. Your second statement (above) is correct. She forfeited her rights to privacy when she chose to drag someone else into your marriage.


Agreed:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Florida_rosbif

manfromlamancha said:


> Given that she is the breadwinner now, this would be permanent alimony for you!!! Yay!!!
> 
> You might have to live in Florida, playing golf in the Keys, putting up with the weather though. I am sure you can manage to import some English beer and get a dartboard. Satellite TV or the Internet to watch the footy, rugby, cricket whatever! Or even become a beach bum! No shortage of women (don't move any of them in though or else your funds will be cut short). And she gets to play the part of the intelligent French career woman. Win win non?
> 
> And being near to the kids all the while.


Hehe, well done, you just made me google Florida alimony law. Actually, though we've been together for 23 years, we only finally married in 2001.

In any case, for financial reasons that I won't go into it is actually in my interest to keep this amicable.

On an important issue, beer, let me reassure you. Years back when I used to come to Houston for work I was appalled by the quality of US beer, the choice back then being limited to the classic Bud and Miller crap. Since then the craft beer industry has developed so great IPAs are plentiful and eminently quaffable.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

> The strange thing was the galloping libido, I wanted her physically all the time


that's quite normal.
the testosterone rush, the sexual stimulation in the brain centers. there are reasons some people enjoy the [mutually consensual] cuckolding/hotwife/polysexual relationships.
important just to keep your mental "center".

things can never be undone, butvwhat do you really want going forward.
good youre redefining yourself in Miami, where you're currently "planted". doing so will result in release of a lot of chronic stress tied up in "problem mode" where things arent as your inner self pictures the "should be of your world". by not having to hold the two separate worlds and constantly reconcile between them you will start to feel better, which you would be well advised to constructively and _enjoyably_ reorientate your life.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

happy as a clam said:


> Grubby intrusion on her privacy? Hardly. Your second statement (above) is correct. She forfeited her rights to privacy when she chose to drag someone else into your marriage.


There is no such thing as "forfeiting a right".
such thinking is just excuse making/self justification - which means the thinker is wrong.

if tthere exists a Right, then is a Right precisely because it cannot be forfeited or denied by others. If it can be removed or forfeited then it is a privilege, one that conditionally awarded.

Does either party in a lifelong commitment actually have a _right_ to privacy? Many women insist/demand it; but why? and do their partner get the same privilege, or does the partner receive less power and must be truthful transparent and requied to give explanation on demand? If such transparency is demanded by one partner, is the other also entitled to same respect (not just "fine"/silence/sulks).
And if you _have_ the Right to privacy... does that not explicitly mean if you have a private affair then it is your own business and not that of the other partner??


----------



## JohnA

You hooked up in 1992. After nine years you married. Why did you finally marry? Why didn't you much sooner? 

I thought how you described how you handled your EA was text book perfect. I think often EA sneak up on a person without them realizing it. In such cases it is important to be upfront with the spouse. 

Oh one other question, did she marry you because you were not her father, and hooked up with posm because he was her father? 

Would it hit home if you told her you would never accept a marriage like her parents? It does seem as though that is what at some level she is willing to accept.

Oh would I be way off if I guessed she was 23/24 and you 29/30 when you meant?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Mr Insomnia strikes again. Damn I'm getting pissed off with falling asleep sitting in the couch before I get the kids to bed, only to go to bed and wake up after three hours sleep, then lie there with my head going round and round.

I never wanted to be a statistic for marriage, I'm not religious and consider marriage just a piece of paper - either you're committed to your partner or not, having your names written on a piece of paper changes ****** all. However, French law gave very few rights to an unmarried, foreign father, even if named as the father on the birth certificate and the livre de famille. So our marriage was as much about protection of the kids and my rights as anything else. Yep, that's me, about as romantic as a piece of wood! Turned out to be a mistake tax wise, but that's life.

Age wise you're pretty well on the money, there's a 5 year difference between us. 

Her motivations to take me as her life partner? Broad shoulders, tall, white, professional, green eyes, right place, right time? Don't know if she chose me because I'm not a philanderer, but I guess that goes without saying. POSM clearly is a philanderer and about as different from me as possible.


----------



## JohnA

Why are you in such pain? I mean if your neighbor who lives around the block and you know to wave to, wife's had an affair would you feel any real pain? Is your wife's and your's relationship more of a brother/sister relationship? 

I heard someone say once just because you divorce does not mean you stop careing, but that does mean you still want to be married. Does that fit her? 

Read a statement years ago: a man needs sex to feel love and connected, a women needs to feel love and a connection to have sex, anything else is just mutual masturbation. 

Has your wife ever said she doesnt feel loved? You wrote earlier you are HD and she is LD. Adutlery is never LD.


----------



## JohnA

Another random thought

1977 engaged in a conversation about the "f" french with a person who spent years there. He stated "the problem with Americans is they don't understand the French. The French don't even like each other. In fact they despise each other, so why should they like anyone else"?

In any event the French are actually a great ally, but a poor friend. After spending over a decade working as a vendor with Elle magazine I clearly understand this.

My question is has you wife come to see her marriage as a alliance only, and not a friendship. Is this true of her parents marriage. As a person who in many ways culturally American I don't understand the worth of such a marriage but I know they exist and work until they don't.


----------



## jld

How are things going, Fl? 

Does your family celebrate Thanksgiving?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Hi JLD, not in the traditional sense, but any excuse to eat well and drink some wine is eagerly seized on by the French! I've been working outside now that the temperature is pleasant here, just finished cooking some stuff for a party with 4 other families tonight.

Have a good one!


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> I don't know that it was about sex. That guy was meeting some emotional need that Fl was not.
> 
> I think he might be able to change that. If he wants to.


It takes a lot of men to meet the emotional needs of a serial cheater. But keep it up, you're breaking new ground again.

It would be great though if you could frame it in a way not to blame the betrayed spouse and instead find the real cause a woman throws her entire family under the bus to get her rocks off.


----------



## lifecolorful

turnera said:


> Install an app on her phone before she leaves so that you can remotely track her calls and texts, and a GPS so you can see where she is at.
> 
> That, at the minimum, is what YOU require to be WILLING to stay married to her.
> 
> And she has to believe that you mean it.


Couldn't she just get a burner phone? I'm not sure demanding access to her phone records would stop her from wanting to flirt and cheat. This lady is selfish to the core. She sounds like she'll do anything that's convenient and fun for her, even at the expense of her family.


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> It takes a lot of men to meet the emotional needs of a serial cheater. But keep it up, you're breaking new ground again.
> 
> It would be great though if you could frame it in a way not to blame the betrayed spouse and instead find the real cause a woman throws her entire family under the bus to get her rocks off.


How is she a serial cheater? Iirc, it was one guy, a fellow French, in her circle of friends, in a foreign country. 

I think she is just lonely. Fl admitted to letting himself go and not being very appealing. He may have also been in some kind of depression, so was unlikely to be meeting her needs, as he probably could not meet his own. 

I am sure she feels bad about succumbing. But humans being human, she gave into weakness. For some weakness is sex, for others it is cigarettes or alcohol or food. We all have weaknesses.

The way forward is for them to be honest and open with each other, to identify their own and each other's needs, and for them to start meeting those needs the best they can. 

They both failed each other. That is the humbling bottom line. Now they need to pick themselves up and start succeeding, both individually and as a team.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Jid,

Think you oversimplified on your last post.

He let her down and disappointed him.
She let him down and devastated him.

Dog owner failed to take dog for walk

Dog let owner down and left a mess.
Dog owner beat dog, cracked ribs and left dog dying.

I think we are getting back to the horse and cart discussion


----------



## jld

JohnA said:


> Hi Jid,
> 
> Think you oversimplified on your last post.
> 
> He let her down and disappointed him.
> She let him down and devastated him.
> 
> Dog owner failed to take dog for walk
> 
> Dog let owner down and left a mess.
> Dog owner beat dog, cracked ribs and left dog dying.
> 
> I think we are getting back to the horse and cart discussion


Do you think she is that powerful, John? That she is the dog owner and he is the dog?

Maybe she is. I guess that is not how I have seen her, though.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Jid,

Her not so much, the effect of her actions on him - yes.

One dynamics not mentioned is the effect of being the breadwinner on her. He has touched on the negative side effects of being a SAHM. No one has discussed the effect of knowing it all on her to gain income. It does take a real toll on a person when that weight is all on them. 

My regular MD (a female) warned me to watch out for this with my wife (who worked full time) when I was downsized. She said it would shocked people how many women react poorly to this change. I guess boys grow up assuming they had no choice and are to degree socialized to adapt to it. Women less so.


----------



## jld

Hmm. I don't know. Maybe Fl could address that possibility.

I do think the path forward, though, if they want to heal the marriage, is to identify, share, and start meeting each other's needs.


----------



## Thor

JohnA said:


> One dynamics not mentioned is the effect of being the breadwinner on her. He has touched on the negative side effects of being a SAHM. No one has discussed the effect of knowing it all on her to gain income. It does take a real toll on a person when that weight is all on them.
> 
> My regular MD (a female) warned me to watch out for this with my wife (who worked full time) when I was downsized. She said it would shocked people how many women react poorly to this change. I guess boys grow up assuming they had no choice and are to degree socialized to adapt to it. Women less so.


100% my experience. I had supported my wife through 9 years of graduate school and essentially unpaid post grad internship and a very low paying entry level job. Then when it was "my turn" as we had discussed numerous times and agreed upon, I left my first well paying career to go into something else, which meant little to no pay for the first few years. Within less than a year my wife was showing lots of resentment and anger.

Whether it be socialization or dna, it seems that it is frequently very bad for a marriage when the husband is SAHD or a significantly lower earner.


----------



## JohnA

From rosbif's posts it sounds like his wife pushed for him to be a SAHD and he reluctantly agreed. He is now frozen by this choice as his industry is in a period of severe contraction. 

Florida Rosbif how plausible is this outline.

Mr FL late twenties - early 30s rising oil executive briti ex pat in France dates and marries young French woman co-worker. His family history unkown,

Mrs FR is a somewhat later in life child of a dysfunctal marriage. She is traumatized by the multiple affairs of both parents. Her mother as a reaction to father's conduct chooses to also enage in multi cases of adultery and becomes harden. As a young women she met brit ex pat who is successful, tall, athletic, with sharp sense of humor (see FR thread on marriage jokes) who unlike her father is extremely stable. 

She becomes pregnant and they choose to co-habitate. Several years later for legal reasons they marry and have two more sons.

Three years ago to advance her career he agrees to move to United States and becomes a SAHD. Lack of employment and dislike of new enviromemt causes him to become withdrawn and depressed. Wife complains and becomes resentful at lack of response. Over time the burden of being the only breadwinner causes an unrealized resentment in her. Combined with learned behavior, a distant husband, and the economic burden results in a kitchen fire in the marriage breaking out. She reacts as Thor's wife and pours gasoline on the fire in the form of adultery with a daddy type figure. 

Suprisingly husband reacts in the opposite fashion of her mother. At first she begins to accept responsibly but choose to vist France to visit family and clear her head. She returns harden by influenced by mother. Now wife rather then except her role and damage to her husband is pushing her parents failed marriage model. She is currently still insisting husband accept her parents marriage as a model. FR due to employment conditions is trapped.

Additional background info: 

FR has an EA several years earlier. He actually handled it very well. He confesses, goes NC(?), asked wife for help. She rugsweeps.

When wife's adultery is first discovered (before trip) they begin the process of separating and find "A" apartment for them to use while "nesting". Both breakdown and back off the reality of not sharing a home.

Florida Rosbif how well does this fit. If well, what are your thoughts as to what you and she needs to do to create a viable marriage?

Thro, how did your wife address her resentment and inability to be a sole breadwinner?


She is evading responsibility for her ac


----------



## jld

He had an EA earlier? That kind of rings a bell.

And now she had a PA. 

These two really need to start meeting each other's needs, or a divorce is likely. And perhaps desirable.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Thor,

On your personal threads I either missed or you have not stated that your wife has in fact had an affair. Rather there is no valid reason to believe that she has not. Acceptance of her reason why she did not is akin to buying a 500 million dollar lottery ticket. Is that still the case? 

Jid, he did address the EA, confessed, she had not even noticed, asked her what he could do to heal it. She choose to rug sweep it. If I recall she was somewhat amused at the the thought he might leave her. In hindsight I would take this as a huge red flag about her true emotional investment in him.

In any event, Jid, what would you say to her if my outline is correct and she asked you for your input?


----------



## jld

Same as before. They need to find out and start meeting each other's emotional needs.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

JohnA said:


> Hi Jid,
> 
> Think you oversimplified on your last post.
> 
> He let her down and disappointed him.
> She let him down and devastated him.
> 
> Dog owner failed to take dog for walk
> 
> Dog let owner down and left a mess.
> Dog owner beat dog, cracked ribs and left dog dying.
> 
> I think we are getting back to the horse and cart discussion


This is kind of the situation that we're in, she still thinks if affair of the symptom of a marital malaise but not a big deal in itself. I think the marriage was eminently reparable right up until she told me about the affair. I still have no idea how I'm supposed to get over what she did, and she can't understand why I'm still "making such a big deal about it".

End result is that we don't even talk about the same problem. She's waiting for me to make big efforts to be the man that she wants, and I'm waiting for her to make big efforts to attempt to repair the damage she's done. Result, stalemate. :frown2:


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Thor said:


> 100% my experience. I had supported my wife through 9 years of graduate school and essentially unpaid post grad internship and a very low paying entry level job. Then when it was "my turn" as we had discussed numerous times and agreed upon, I left my first well paying career to go into something else, which meant little to no pay for the first few years. Within less than a year my wife was showing lots of resentment and anger.
> 
> Whether it be socialization or dna, it seems that it is frequently very bad for a marriage when the husband is SAHD or a significantly lower earner.


Yep, previously I was earning more than her, now she's the main breadwinner. She has said that the load on her shoulders is too much, to which I glibly reply "But this is what you wanted honey!".

I recall reading somewhere that women generally find being the main earner in the family harder to deal with than men, no doubt some societal model issue.


----------



## JohnA

First Jid, 

Let me rephrase: what would you say to her in a detailed explanation of how she is failing to meet his needs.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

JohnA said:


> From rosbif's posts it sounds like his wife pushed for him to be a SAHD and he reluctantly agreed. He is now frozen by this choice as his industry is in a period of severe contraction.
> 
> Florida Rosbif how plausible is this outline.
> 
> Mr FL late twenties - early 30s rising oil executive briti ex pat in France dates and marries young French woman co-worker. His family history unkown,
> 
> Mrs FR is a somewhat later in life child of a dysfunctal marriage. She is traumatized by the multiple affairs of both parents. Her mother as a reaction to father's conduct chooses to also enage in multi cases of adultery and becomes harden. As a young women she met brit ex pat who is successful, tall, athletic, with sharp sense of humor (see FR thread on marriage jokes) who unlike her father is extremely stable.
> 
> She becomes pregnant and they choose to co-habitate. Several years later for legal reasons they marry and have two more sons.
> 
> Three years ago to advance her career he agrees to move to United States and becomes a SAHD. Lack of employment and dislike of new enviromemt causes him to become withdrawn and depressed. Wife complains and becomes resentful at lack of response. Over time the burden of being the only breadwinner causes an unrealized resentment in her. Combined with learned behavior, a distant husband, and the economic burden results in a kitchen fire in the marriage breaking out. She reacts as Thor's wife and pours gasoline on the fire in the form of adultery with a daddy type figure.
> 
> Suprisingly husband reacts in the opposite fashion of her mother. At first she begins to accept responsibly but choose to vist France to visit family and clear her head. She returns harden by influenced by mother. Now wife rather then except her role and damage to her husband is pushing her parents failed marriage model. She is currently still insisting husband accept her parents marriage as a model. FR due to employment conditions is trapped.
> 
> Additional background info:
> 
> FR has an EA several years earlier. He actually handled it very well. He confesses, goes NC(?), asked wife for help. She rugsweeps.
> 
> When wife's adultery is first discovered (before trip) they begin the process of separating and find "A" apartment for them to use while "nesting". Both breakdown and back off the reality of not sharing a home.
> 
> Florida Rosbif how well does this fit. If well, what are your thoughts as to what you and she needs to do to create a viable marriage?
> 
> Thro, how did your wife address her resentment and inability to be a sole breadwinner?
> 
> 
> She is evading responsibility for her ac


Pretty close to the real scenario. She needs to work like hell to help me heal or we're going nowhere other than separation, divorce and screwed up kids.

One interesting thing that I discovered when we saw the MC together. I've always thought that I was about as emotionally aware as a block of wood, including in terms of communication. In fact the MC had to keep shutting me up to try to get my wife to talk!

It turns out that I'm a far more open and clear communicator than my wife when hard things need to be discussed. This might explain why she says that she's been telling me for years that things weren't right in the marriage and I never "heard" her. I put the occasional tearful outburst down to hormones.......


----------



## jld

What do you want her to do to help you heal?


----------



## JohnA

Hi FR,

Before addressing your future action consider 

I think you are to date attempting to see both sides of your marriage. Your response to her to her sharing her thoughts of carrying the burden was poor, your resort to humor was wrong. If you divorce (and you should if she refuses to come around) is your response who you wish to be with your next wife, 

For example you believe in a high standard of hygiene which includes showering. She believes in being clean but will often sink shower several days in a row. You demand change or divorce. The question here for her is if I choose to divorce will I demand that my next husband not only accept sink showers but also practice the same hygiene?

In short I am asking you to respond to her demands not with her in mind, but how those changes are ones you decide are needed to build a good relationship with a new wife. She owes you that much. Hehe my ex help build my current wife's amazing husband.

This needs to be a necessary part of you quietly(in stealth) detaching and planning a post divorce life.

To be honest to date it seems like her response is why should I accept any blame because you are a shyt husband. Hint because one's reactions are always their responsibility and insight into their character.


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> Pretty close to the real scenario. She needs to work like hell to help me heal or we're going nowhere other than separation, divorce and screwed up kids.
> 
> One interesting thing that I discovered when we saw the MC together. I've always thought that I was about as emotionally aware as a block of wood, including in terms of communication. In fact the MC had to keep shutting me up to try to get my wife to talk!
> 
> It turns out that I'm a far more open and clear communicator than my wife when hard things need to be discussed. This might explain why *she says that she's been telling me for years that things weren't right in the marriage and I never "heard" her.* I put the occasional tearful outburst down to hormones.......


That explains a lot right there.


----------



## Duguesclin

FR, you can play the victim and wait for her to help you. However it is risky. She may decide not to help you and, in the meantime, you are wasting a lot of valuable time.

A safer way is to take charge. You need to decide if the marriage is worth saving. If it is, go on and do what is necessary to get the marriage back on track. If it is not, move on. But please, do not wait and do nothing. When you do nothing it is not helping anyone, you included.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Jid,

Really that explains a lot? Your response leaves it all on him. There are two people in this marriage. 
Let me rephase my question 

"if she asked you why he is making such a big deal about the adultery and not addressing his issues in the marriage" what would you say.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Duguesclin said:


> FR, you can play the victim and wait for her to help you. However it is risky. She may decide not to help you and, in the meantime, you are wasting a lot of valuable time.
> 
> A safer way is to take charge. *You need to decide if the marriage is worth saving. *If it is, go on and do what is necessary to get the marriage back on track. If it is not, move on. But please, do not wait and do nothing. When you do nothing it is not helping anyone, you included.


I know that you are absolutely correct. If it is going to work I have to step up to the plate and fight for it, the difficult issue is knowing whether it is salvageable. I'm still bitter as **** and am waiting for "time the great healer" to get me over it. Certainly with me feeling as I do now we have no future.

Another issue is my desire to move the **** away from this god forsaken place, that my wife loves.....

It is very hard to imagine us going back to a happy marriage. How can I ever trust again, when what she has done to the kids and I is so enormous and shows such a negligent attitude?

It all just makes me so sad. I pride myself on being able to fix just about anything, but you can't "unaffair" your marriage.


----------



## Tron

Florida_rosbif said:


> It turns out that I'm a far more open and clear communicator than my wife when hard things need to be discussed. *This might explain why she says that she's been telling me for years that things weren't right in the marriage and I never "heard" her.* I put the occasional tearful outburst down to hormones.......





jld said:


> That explains a lot right there.


You know jld, your response to this just chaps my a$$. I am not sure you even read what he posted. 

You have absolutely no idea WHAT she has done or said "for years"...EXCEPT, If she is as poor a communicator as the MC indicated in their session and avoids all the "hard" discussions, then she has done NOTHING and this is just her re-writing the history of their marriage, justifying her atrocious behavior and seeking to blame it all on FL. 

It isn't an excuse for FL to just sit in the victim chair and wait for her to fix her own crap. I agree he will need to take the lead, but his WW needs to take ownership of her poor behavior and coping mechanisms and get in therapy. Her side of the street needs some serious cleaning. 

FL cannot do it alone. And if she won't get on board then he needs to dump her a$$ so she can go be like her mother...


----------



## Nucking Futs

Florida_rosbif said:


> This is kind of the situation that we're in, *she still thinks if affair of the symptom of a marital malaise but not a big deal in itself.* I think the marriage was eminently reparable right up until she told me about the affair. I still have no idea how I'm supposed to get over what she did, and she can't understand why I'm still "making such a big deal about it".
> 
> End result is that we don't even talk about the same problem. She's waiting for me to make big efforts to be the man that she wants, and I'm waiting for her to make big efforts to attempt to repair the damage she's done. Result, stalemate. :frown2:





Florida_rosbif said:


> I know that you are absolutely correct. If it is going to work I have to step up to the plate and fight for it, the difficult issue is knowing whether it is salvageable. I'm still bitter as **** and am waiting for "time the great healer" to get me over it. Certainly with me feeling as I do now we have no future.
> 
> Another issue is my desire to move the **** away from this god forsaken place, that my wife loves.....
> 
> It is very hard to imagine us going back to a happy marriage. *How can I ever trust again, when what she has done to the kids and I is so enormous and shows such a negligent attitude?*
> 
> It all just makes me so sad. I pride myself on being able to fix just about anything, but you can't "unaffair" your marriage.


Only a fool would trust someone with this attitude. She might as well come right out and tell you that she'll cheat whenever she wants and you just need to accept it. Go along with this and you'll need to have "wittol" tattooed on your forehead.


----------



## JohnA

FR

What you can do is plan a post divorce life by addressing issues that can be addresed now and building a pathway to a job in europe with primary custody of your children. 

I made a suggestion of working on yourself in terms of being a better husband to create a better marriage with your next wife. I also suggested as part of a starting point addressing your wife's issues with you. I,E. Evaluate them in light of future re
Relationships - not just in light of her needs. 

Your thoughts


----------



## jld

JohnA said:


> Hi Jid,
> 
> Really that explains a lot? Your response leaves it all on him. There are two people in this marriage.
> Let me rephase my question
> 
> "if she asked you why he is making such a big deal about the adultery and not addressing his issues in the marriage" what would you say.


"I think his feelings are hurt. He may have thought his EA, since he confessed it right away, and you forgave it, was not a big deal. But you have to remember that a lot of men see their wives as their possession. It could be that to him, his possession did something way worse than what he did, perhaps something unforgivable. He may want you to grovel. Are you open to that? To begging his forgiveness and asking what his rules for reconciliation are? Because that may be the cost of staying married to him."

Fl, is any of that accurate? Or not at all?


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> "I think his feelings are hurt. He may have thought his EA, since he confessed it right away, and you forgave it, was not a big deal. But you have to remember that a lot of men see their wives as their possession. It could be that to him, his possession did something way worse than what he did, perhaps something unforgivable. He may want you to grovel. Are you open to that? To begging his forgiveness and asking what his rules for reconciliation are? Because that may be the cost of staying married to him."
> 
> Fl, is any of that accurate? Or not at all?


Good God, is that what you think of men? Do you even realize how insulting that is?


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Good God, is that what you think of men? Do you even realize how insulting that is?


No, I did not see it as insulting at all. John asked me what I would say to OP's wife, and I tried to answer as honestly as possible.

Why do you think it is insulting? 

Just as an aside, NF, if I ever cheated on my husband, and I would not, but if I ever did, I would deserve for him to divorce me. I certainly do not think I would deserve to stay married to him. And I would carry that shame forever.

But I know Dug would not do that. He would look at himself and what he did that made me vulnerable. And he would try to help me forgive myself.


----------



## turnera

Florida_rosbif said:


> This is kind of the situation that we're in, she still thinks if affair of the symptom of a marital malaise but not a big deal in itself. I think the marriage was eminently reparable right up until she told me about the affair. I still have no idea how I'm supposed to get over what she did, and she can't understand why I'm still "making such a big deal about it".
> 
> End result is that we don't even talk about the same problem. She's waiting for me to make big efforts to be the man that she wants, and I'm waiting for her to make big efforts to attempt to repair the damage she's done. Result, stalemate. :frown2:


Florida, this isn't a misfit on belief systems. This is just a plain vanilla case of self-centeredness. She rules the world because she's a bigshot and you just haven't figured it out yet.

You deserve better.


----------



## JohnA

Thank you Jid,

Right or wrong in this case your answer was spot on in rising an honest point that had not been raised and FR should think about going forward with the marriage or a new one. It is similar to a recent post of mine about her stress of being the sole breadwinner. I stated his answer was factually correct in how they got there, but poor in accepting a responsibilty that is was a joint issue that they both needed to address. This would be a really good issues to raise in MC by saying in joint session "I know I did poorly in supporting my wife's stress at being the sole breadwinners. How should I have handled it, and how can we fix this going forward." 

The problem is as he stated early on, this was fixable before her adultery. Now because of the adultery to address it is to validate her actions. Again my answer is a common issue with future relationships. This unlike were he lives or his employment can be addressed. To do so is a win - win for him. Hey, if she is willing tp help him be a better husband for a better wife - go for it. She needs to pay her debt in one form or another. Just as he has debts to pay. 

Yes I know I can be very cold, but I am well balanced. Shortly after my ex moved I insisted her sister and her family move into my home rent free for two months after being evicted. I lived in the next town so it kepted my stbx nephew in the same high school. They got a huge chunk of change from the sale of a home they owed for 15 years after closing and bought a townhouse.


----------



## jld

I am not really sure I am following you, John. I think mutual humility could go a long way toward healing this marriage.


----------



## JohnA

Hi Jid,

Mutual humility begins with mutual understanding. The biggest problem with helping FR we only know his POV. He has raised several issues rooted in personal humility. Good for him. His wife is giving nothing in return, or she is failing to communicate effectively it to him. But again, communication is a mutual activity. She could be saying all the right things, but in Russian a language he does not speak.

Your comment I think helped bridge that gap. In responding to it he might discover she has in fact communicated it. Like mine about women solo breadwinners revealed an issue. 

So - thank you. I recently posted an outline of their marriage he thought was good. Your thoughts on some of the points raised in it?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

jld, you might be right. However, I'm still very far from being in a place where I want to address my failings for her, it just doesn't tally with the scale of wrongness of our respective failings. Pigheaded, maybe, but that's where I am.

However, JohnA has a point. Yes I do intend to work on myself, just not for her, it would be for me. She's has and continues to act in a very ego centric way, as long as she's ok with herself all is good. I need to start behaving in the same way.

Having said that, it's got sod all to do with the next marriage. I will not marry again, I have no intention of exposing myself to the risk of this kind of **** and pain ever again! Girlfriends fine, but no more.


----------



## jld

JohnA said:


> From rosbif's posts it sounds like his wife pushed for him to be a SAHD and he reluctantly agreed. He is now frozen by this choice as his industry is in a period of severe contraction.
> 
> Florida Rosbif how plausible is this outline.
> 
> Mr FL late twenties - early 30s rising oil executive briti ex pat in France dates and marries young French woman co-worker. His family history unkown,
> 
> Mrs FR is a somewhat later in life child of a dysfunctal marriage. She is traumatized by the multiple affairs of both parents. Her mother as a reaction to father's conduct chooses to also enage in multi cases of adultery and becomes harden. As a young women she met brit ex pat who is successful, tall, athletic, with sharp sense of humor (see FR thread on marriage jokes) who unlike her father is extremely stable.
> 
> She becomes pregnant and they choose to co-habitate. Several years later for legal reasons they marry and have two more sons.
> 
> Three years ago to advance her career he agrees to move to United States and becomes a SAHD. Lack of employment and dislike of new enviromemt causes him to become withdrawn and depressed. Wife complains and becomes resentful at lack of response. Over time the burden of being the only breadwinner causes an unrealized resentment in her. Combined with learned behavior, a distant husband, and the economic burden results in a kitchen fire in the marriage breaking out. She reacts as Thor's wife and pours gasoline on the fire in the form of adultery with a daddy type figure.
> 
> Suprisingly husband reacts in the opposite fashion of her mother. At first she begins to accept responsibly but choose to vist France to visit family and clear her head. She returns harden by influenced by mother. Now wife rather then except her role and damage to her husband is pushing her parents failed marriage model. She is currently still insisting husband accept her parents marriage as a model. FR due to employment conditions is trapped.
> 
> Additional background info:
> 
> FR has an EA several years earlier. He actually handled it very well. He confesses, goes NC(?), asked wife for help. She rugsweeps.
> 
> When wife's adultery is first discovered (before trip) they begin the process of separating and find "A" apartment for them to use while "nesting". Both breakdown and back off the reality of not sharing a home.
> 
> Florida Rosbif how well does this fit. If well, what are your thoughts as to what you and she needs to do to create a viable marriage?
> 
> Thro, how did your wife address her resentment and inability to be a sole breadwinner?
> 
> 
> She is evading responsibility for her ac


Took another look, John. You seem to see Fl through sympathetic eyes. 

I don't think Fl is a victim. I think he neglected to meet his wife's needs, and was shocked when she had that affair. 

Most telling to me was his posting that she had tried to talk to him several times during the marriage about her discontent, but he did not take her seriously. Emotional neglect.

My husband Duguesclin commented earlier that expatriation can bring out vulnerabilities in people. We were expatriated twice, first to France, and then to India. I was pretty stressed living in France with four kids in a small apartment. I was mad pretty often.

Then in India our oldest son got cancer. More stress.

But through it all our marriage was strong. Dug is committed, and I can tell him anything.

Fl, I urge you to make it safe for your wife to tell you anything. Earn her trust, even if you don't think she deserves your effort. Your children certainly do.


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> jld, you might be right. However, I'm still very far from being in a place where I want to address my failings for her, it just doesn't tally with the scale of wrongness of our respective failings. Pigheaded, maybe, but that's where I am.
> 
> However, JohnA has a point. Yes I do intend to work on myself, just not for her, it would be for me. She's has and continues to act in a very ego centric way, as long as she's ok with herself all is good. I need to start behaving in the same way.
> 
> Having said that, it's got sod all to do with the next marriage. I will not marry again, I have no intention of exposing myself to the risk of this kind of **** and pain ever again! Girlfriends fine, but no more.


Fl, simple question: Do you love her?


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## As'laDain

jld said:


> Fl, simple question: Do you love her?


a more productive question might be this:

is there anything she could ever do to regain your trust?

for me, there was. without the trust being rebuilt, trying to achieve emotional vulnerability is a fools game.


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## jld

As'laDain said:


> a more productive question might be this:
> 
> is there anything she could ever do to regain your trust?
> 
> for me, there was. without the trust being rebuilt, trying to achieve emotional vulnerability is a fools game.


I think if he loves her, Asla, he will be willing to earn _her_ trust.


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## JohnA

Be a good little puppy and you get a treat?


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## As'laDain

jld said:


> I think if he loves her, Asla, he will be willing to earn _her_ trust.


sure, but there is no point if there is nothing she can do to regain _his_ trust. 

i loved akinaura, but if there were no way i could ever trust her again, i would have simply left. and im sure you would agree, leaving in that situation would have been better for both of us than staying. 

if they are to reconcile, both of them will have to change. people usually take issue with what you say when you blame men for emotionally neglecting their wives. in reality, they are shocked and blindsided when their spouses cheat. 

if they were communicating clearly to each other, do you really think that anyone would be shocked? they would see it coming a mile away! if a woman came up to me speaking swahili, asking for insulin to save her life, i wouldn't understand it at all. i would know something is wrong, but not much beyond that. eventually, the woman would leave and find someone who speaks her language so that she can save her life. i don't think anyone would blame me for not having a clue what she needed, especially if i tried to find someone who could interpret, but couldn't. 

when men are shocked that their wives go off and cheat, its often something like that. they have not learned to communicate their needs properly. somewhere, the message is not getting across. 
for me, this was an important lesson to learn in order to be able to forgive. i understood that we were speaking different languages, so we both had to learn how to talk to each other. 

fault comes into play when someone deliberately makes a choice to betray/abuse/neglect their spouse. if i understood a request for insulin, but chose to ignore it, i would be at fault. but i certainly wouldn't be surprised. FLs wife knew there was something wrong with the marriage, but instead of forcing the issue and being honest, she chose to cheat. and she is displaying the mindset that cheating is an acceptable solution to her, which means that she is likely to do it again later on if she runs into future communication issues again. so, cheating is, for her, the preferred choice over the difficulties of learning to communicate effectively. that will have to change, since FL cannot accept cheating as an option AND trust her. 

if akinaura were not willing to sit down and learn to communicate with me, i would not be at fault for leaving her. if i were not willing to sit down and learn how to communicate with her, she would not be at fault for leaving me. 

i loved akinaura and still do, so i did seek to earn her trust, but only because she was willing to earn mine. can FL say the same for his wife?


----------



## Duguesclin

As'laDain said:


> if akinaura were not willing to sit down and learn to communicate with me, i would not be at fault for leaving her. if i were not willing to sit down and learn how to communicate with her, she would not be at fault for leaving me.


Asla, I would agree with you if they were only 2 people. But in FR's case or your case, there are children.

FR needs to look beyond who is at fault and look at what is best for the family. Whatever decision he makes is not going to be clean, whether he stays or not. The best he can do right now is damage control. He needs to chose who he wants to protect and act accordingly.


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## jld

So if a man neglects his wife because he does not know better, it is okay. But a wife who then has an affair is at fault. Is that the logic?

I doubt she is going to cheat again. I think this has been traumatizing enough.

I don't think she is very motivated to reach out to her husband. I doubt she loves him very much. I think she has been neglected for years, and previous attempts to communicate with him fell on deaf ears. 

People will not go forever without their needs met. Or not happily. Her emotional bank account is very low. I think the kids, and the kids alone, are the reason she has not filed.

It is up to him. He seems willing to leave the kids and go back to the UK. Or he could stay, humble himself, and earn her trust. He could work on healing himself. I don't think she cares about healing him. I think she is too hurt herself.


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## Florida_rosbif

Love and trust, we're talking about the mainstays now! 

Yes I still love her, though some of it has of course soured into bitterness. There are good days and bad days, I'm still capable of focussing on an aspect of the affair and whipping myself into a mental frenzy that leads inevitably to thoughts of divorce and a **** day. Yet on good days, family meal and so on I can end up feeling ok about life just by not thinking about the affair. So what love remains is clearly tainted by incomprehension - how could she do that, etc.

This is a guy perspective, but the limited sex life that we have doesn't make closeness and lovey feelings easy to come by. This has to improve or it's a no go anyway and I'm tired of being the only initiator even now! Surely her desire to fix things should make her want to come on to me, but the sad reality is that this is not the case. The cerebral nature of women means that while all is not well she is not going to feel sexy.

Trust is a difficult one too. The rational part of me accepts that she is telling the truth, but that doesn't stop the emotionally insecure part of me suddenly worrying about her being gone an hour too long. Don't know how this is rebuilt, time I guess.


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## As'laDain

Duguesclin said:


> Asla, I would agree with you if they were only 2 people. But in FR's case or your case, there are children.
> 
> FR needs to look beyond who is at fault and look at what is best for the family. Whatever decision he makes is not going to be clean, whether he stays or not. The best he can do right now is damage control. He needs to chose who he wants to protect and act accordingly.


 

i agree that he needs to look beyond who is at fault. in my own case, i saw that holding on to blame just carries the problem longer. but, damage control was never my goal. 

i wanted to learn to fall in love with my wife and have a close, intimate relationship with my wife. i wanted to be able to show my daughter what that kind of relationship looks like.

it didnt really matter who was at fault. what mattered was what i thought was possible, and what i actually wanted. i thought it was possible to learn to trust and love akinaura. i knew what i needed to see in order to be able to get there, and i knew what i was willing and able to do in order to help her fall in love with me. 

had either of us not been willing, or simply not believed it possible, we would be better off finding other people to model a healthy and happy relationship for our daughter. and we would have been better off ourselves, being happy.


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## jld

I don't think you have to just wait around. Try reading this:

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife

Fl, you need to draw her back in. You need to give her a reason to give you another chance. She was hurt for a long time. It is going to take some time to earn her trust. And it will have to start with you.

If you love her, you can do it. It just takes the motivation of truly loving her.


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## As'laDain

jld said:


> *So if a man neglects his wife because he does not know better, it is okay. But a wife who then has an affair is at fault. Is that the logic?*
> 
> I doubt she is going to cheat again. I think this has been traumatizing enough.
> 
> I don't think she is very motivated to reach out to her husband. I doubt she loves him very much. I think she has been neglected for years, and previous attempts to communicate with him fell on deaf ears.
> 
> People will not go forever without their needs met. Or not happily. Her emotional bank account is very low. I think the kids, and the kids alone, are the reason she has not filed.
> 
> It is up to him. He seems willing to leave the kids and go back to the UK. Or he could stay, humble himself, and earn her trust. He could work on healing himself. I don't think she cares about healing him. I think she is too hurt herself.



what i was trying to say was that if a man neglects his wife because he does not know any better, it is forgivable, and if a woman neglects her husband because she does not know any better, it is forgivable. but only so long as they are both willing to learn better.

i haven't seen my wife in nearly three months. would you find me at fault if i were to cheat on her? i mean, she obviously isnt fulfilling my needs during my time away. would you find fault in her if she cheated on me?


----------



## As'laDain

Florida_rosbif said:


> Love and trust, we're talking about the mainstays now!
> 
> Yes I still love her, though some of it has of course soured into bitterness. There are good days and bad days, I'm still capable of focussing on an aspect of the affair and whipping myself into a mental frenzy that leads inevitably to thoughts of divorce and a **** day. Yet on good days, family meal and so on I can end up feeling ok about life just by not thinking about the affair. So what love remains is clearly tainted by incomprehension - how could she do that, etc.
> 
> This is a guy perspective, but the limited sex life that we have doesn't make closeness and lovey feelings easy to come by. This has to improve or it's a no go anyway and I'm tired of being the only initiator even now! Surely her desire to fix things should make her want to come on to me, but the sad reality is that this is not the case. The cerebral nature of women means that while all is not well she is not going to feel sexy.
> 
> *Trust is a difficult one too. The rational part of me accepts that she is telling the truth, but that doesn't stop the emotionally insecure part of me suddenly worrying about her being gone an hour too long. Don't know how this is rebuilt, time I guess.*


not just time, you have to come up with things that she can do to help reduce the triggers and assure you that she isnt lying to you or trying to cheat. things like keeping her location services on at all times while out of the house so that you can see where she is. you wont have to do it forever, just until you are comfortable and confident that when she tells you where she is and what she is doing, you have a history of honesty to make her words believable.


----------



## Duguesclin

As'laDain said:


> had either of us not been willing, or simply not believed it possible, we would be better off finding other people to model a healthy and happy relationship for our daughter. and we would have been better off ourselves, being happy.


Here you are assuming that a healthier relationship can be found. Why would that be the case? In FR's case he was not able to be in a healthy relationship. What has changed that would make you think the next one will be healthier?

The rate of divorce for second marriages is higher than with first marriages. That tells a lot.

Unless FR knows what went wrong in the first relationship and make the necessary changes, divorcing may not bring him back to a better place.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> what i was trying to say was that if a man neglects his wife because he does not know any better, it is forgivable, and if a woman neglects her husband because she does not know any better, it is forgivable. but only so long as they are both willing to learn better.
> 
> i haven't seen my wife in nearly three months. would you find me at fault if i were to cheat on her? i mean, she obviously isnt fulfilling my needs during my time away. would you find fault in her if she cheated on me?


I think where there is love, all is forgivable.

I don't think either of you want to cheat, and you have set it up so that is unlikely to happen. 

I think Fl and his wife could get there. But I think he has to be the leader.


----------



## As'laDain

Duguesclin said:


> Here you are assuming that a healthier relationship can be found. Why would that be the case? In FR's case he was not able to be in a healthy relationship. What has changed that would make you think the next one will be healthier?
> 
> The rate of divorce for second marriages is higher than with first marriages. That tells a lot.
> 
> Unless FR knows what went wrong in the first relationship and make the necessary changes, divorcing may not bring him back to a better place.


absolutely. the assumption is that a healthier relationship CAN be found. two people are required for that. it CAN be the current relationship, but both partners have to be on board, and dedicated. 
if FR is dedicated to making the relationship rock solid, he will have to make sure that she is as well. 

so he needs to identify the things that trigger him and find out what can ease the pain, and find out if his wife is willing to do those things. and he also needs to find out what she actually needs, not just what she says she needs, from him.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> I think where there is love, all is forgivable.
> 
> I don't think either of you want to cheat, and you have set it up so that is unlikely to happen.
> 
> I think Fl and his wife could get there. But I think he has to be the leader.


where there is love(verb) yes, all is forgivable. 
even when someone is at fault. 

your right, neither akinaura nor i want to cheat while im away. but you didnt answer the question. why is that? is it that we would be at fault if we chose to do so? we certainly would be.


----------



## Duguesclin

As'laDain said:


> absolutely. the assumption is that a healthier relationship CAN be found. two people are required for that. it CAN be the current relationship, but both partners have to be on board, and dedicated.
> if FR is dedicated to making the relationship rock solid, he will have to make sure that she is as well.


2 people are required to make a relationship work, but it often starts with one first and the other will follow suit.

FR needs to do the work first to get her back in the relationship.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> where there is love(verb) yes, all is forgivable.
> even when someone is at fault.
> 
> your right, neither akinaura nor i want to cheat while im away. but you didnt answer the question. why is that? is it that we would be at fault if we chose to do so? we certainly would be.


I think the greatest need for both of you is to maintain each other's trust, specifically by not cheating. So any sexual need or desire you might feel is overshadowed by that greater need.


----------



## jld

Asla, you understand that Fl's wife does not care about staying in the marriage except for the kids, right? 

But Fl loves her. He can use that love to motivate himself to do the things that can draw her back to him.

Asla, your wife wanted to stay married to you. She was willing to do the things you required to stay married. 

And yes, you did your part as well. 

But Fl does not have a wife who wants or needs to stay with him. He could make her want that by starting to meet her needs. But she is not there yet.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> I think the greatest need for both of you is to maintain each other's trust, specifically by not cheating. So any sexual need or desire you might feel is overshadowed by that greater need.


not just that. i dont feel resentment toward her for denying me sex. i know exactly why we are not having sex, and i know there is nothing she can do about it. same goes for her emotional needs. she misses the hell out of me, but she knows there is nothing i can do about it. 

but i would certainly resent her if she decided to tell me that she was willing to bear the burdens of our life style, but choose to go behind my back and cheat. she would then be at fault. and the other way around, same thing is true. 

that is what cheating is. deliberate dishonesty.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> Asla, you understand that Fl's wife does not care about staying in the marriage except for the kids, right?
> 
> But Fl loves her. He can use that love to motivate himself to do the things that can draw her back to him.
> 
> Asla, your wife wanted to stay married to you. She was willing to do the things you required to stay married.
> 
> And yes, you did your part as well.
> 
> But Fl does not have a wife who wants or needs to stay with him. He could make her want that by starting to meet her needs. But she is not there yet.


if i were in his shoes, i would not be willing to stay together for the kids unless she were willing to do the things with him that cause two people to fall in love. 

simple as that.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> not just that. i dont feel resentment toward her for denying me sex. i know exactly why we are not having sex, and i know there is nothing she can do about it. same goes for her emotional needs. she misses the hell out of me, but she knows there is nothing i can do about it.
> 
> but i would certainly resent her if she decided to tell me that she was willing to bear the burdens of our life style, but choose to go behind my back and cheat. she would then be at fault. and the other way around, same thing is true.
> 
> that is what cheating is. deliberate dishonesty.


I agree. But I don't think neglect, for whatever reason, is any less damaging.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> if i were in his shoes, i would not be willing to stay together for the kids unless she were willing to do the things with him that cause two people to fall in love.
> 
> simple as that.


Dug would.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> I agree. But I don't think neglect, for whatever reason, is any less damaging.


i dont think it is either. but, when its caused by ineffective communication, its far easier to forgive.


----------



## tech-novelist

Nucking Futs said:


> Only a fool would trust someone with this attitude. She might as well come right out and tell you that she'll cheat whenever she wants and you just need to accept it. Go along with this and you'll need to have "wittol" tattooed on your forehead.


Do they still do that? I haven't seen one of those tattoos for what seems like 200 years now...


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> i dont think it is either. but, when its caused by ineffective communication, its far easier to forgive.


Asla, that defense might work with some. But not with all.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> Asla, that defense might work with some. But not with all.


i disagree. basically, what i am saying, is that when you KNOW your partner did not intend to do anything to hurt you or lie to you, its easier to forgive them then when you KNOW that they DID intend to hurt you or lie to you. 

thats pretty much what it boils down to. stupidity and ignorance is far easier to forgive than deliberate intentions. if you cant forgive ignorance and stupidity, you are mistaking it for deliberate intent.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> i disagree. basically, what i am saying, is that when you KNOW your partner did not intend to do anything to hurt you or lie to you, its easier to forgive them then when you KNOW that they DID intend to hurt you or lie to you.
> 
> thats pretty much what it boils down to. stupidity and ignorance is far easier to forgive than deliberate intentions. if you cant forgive ignorance and stupidity, you are mistaking it for deliberate intent.


Asla, I think Dug would forgive anything I did. It is because of his love for me, and his grounded nature.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Dug would.


And...AD NAUSEUM...Dug is not a typical male and you are not a typical wife, so your advice DOES NOT WORK FOR MOST PEOPLE.


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## jld

turnera said:


> And...AD NAUSEUM...Dug is not a typical male and you are not a typical wife, so your advice DOES NOT WORK FOR MOST PEOPLE.


It might, if it is tried, Turnera.


----------



## turnera

In a fairy tale perhaps.

The ONLY reason you two have a working relationship is that BOTH of you buy into your unique situation. But 99.995% of people in relationships are NOT sharing your unique perspectives and have their OWN dysfunctions from their OWN FOOs that preclude the two of them from hitting on that exact same 'belief system' that you two have.

It's getting old watching you try to talk people into something that doesn't work for them. Basic tenets, sure. But the other 75% of your system? No. Most people in CWI are there because at least ONE of them has chosen to be selfish, self-centered, or just plain disgusted. NOT the 'hardened heart' that you think can be softened just by being nicer and asking their partner to step on them.


----------



## As'laDain

Well, I'm not sure what else my wife could do that I could forgive her for. 

I can forgive just about anything too. I do have conditions for reconciliation, however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Our perspective is not much different than Dr. Harley's, Turnera. He advises men to follow Plan A for six months to a year after a wife's affair. A wife is only asked to follow it for three weeks after his. Dr. Harley knows where the power is, too.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> Well, I'm not sure what else my wife could do that I could forgive her for.
> 
> I can forgive just about anything too. * I do have conditions for reconciliation, however.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because you could. Fl cannot. Not if he wants his family intact, anyway.


----------



## turnera

I'm COMPLETELY aware of Dr. Harley's advice. His is the first forum I went to. And left because I realized it was HUGELY inadequate, despite a good basic foundation. As I said to you. It wasn't until I came to TAM that I realized what was missing from Harley's advice: self respect, boundaries, and accountability. And that's what's wrong with YOUR advice. If BOTH people are willing to invest in those three items, like you and Dug are, GREAT! You'll have a winning relationship.

Problem is, by the time most people get to TAM they are missing at least one of those things. So Harleys' advice is actually WRONG for those people. And HARMFUL.


----------



## jld

I disagree. From what Ele and Rose have said, Marriage Builders has many more success stories than TAM.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> Because you could. Fl cannot. Not if he wants his family intact, anyway.


Maybe. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she were to agree to conditions for R if she were faced with the choice of conditional R or no R at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> Maybe. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she were to agree to conditions for R if she were faced with the choice of conditional R or no R at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are seeking leverage, something to hold over her head, a means of coercion.

He can create his own leverage, _ethically_, by starting to meet her emotional needs, just out of his genuine love for her.


----------



## azteca1986

turnera said:


> And...AD NAUSEUM...Dug is not a typical male and you are not a typical wife, so your advice DOES NOT WORK FOR MOST PEOPLE.


jld did also claims (in gridcom's car crash of a thread) that if _she cheated_, Dug's first reaction would be to ask her how he failed her.

An atypical male response, I think you'll agree Rosbif.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> You are seeking leverage, something to hold over her head, a means of coercion.
> 
> He can create his own leverage, _ethically_, by starting to meet her emotional needs, just out of his genuine love for her.


Is it not ethical to be honest about what he can actually live with? Is it some how unethical if he requires full transparency or no deal? 

You know what IS unethical? Cheating, lying, and then blaming others for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> Is it not ethical to be honest about what he can actually live with? Is it some how unethical if he requires full transparency or no deal?


He can put his conditions out there. She can also refuse them. Then what does he do? 

Trying to hold something over her head is unlikely to work, especially long term. She has her own money. And she has not felt loved by him for a long time. On a personal level, I doubt she feels she has much to lose.

Otoh, she has already told him what can work. He just needs to listen.



> You know what IS unethical? Cheating, lying, and then blaming others for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't see anything ethical in betrayal, Asla. And as Esther Perel says, there are many types of betrayal in marriage.


Fl, I understand you are hurting. You feel disrespected by your wife. You feel she did not play by the rules, or at least by your rules. You want her to see your pain and feel moved to heal you. 

I think that could happen . . . _if_ you first see _her_ pain, and feel moved to heal _her_. Reaching out in genuine compassion to her, without any attempts at coercion, could move her heart towards genuine compassion for you. 

Are you willing to do that?


----------



## Nucking Futs

This is almost too good to be true. A poster just came back to update his thread after a year and I think his update fits in well with this discussion. OP, take a look at this. Bear in mind that jld was not part of that thread.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> This is almost too good to be true. A poster just came back to update his thread after a year and I think his update fits in well with this discussion. OP, take a look at this. Bear in mind that jld was not part of that thread.


How is it good? 

He moved on to someone else. Were there kids involved? I wonder how they feel about that.


----------



## Duguesclin

Nucking Futs said:


> This is almost too good to be true. A poster just came back to update his thread after a year and I think his update fits in well with this discussion. OP, take a look at this. Bear in mind that jld was not part of that thread.


Is that supposed to be a success? He is divorced. FR would like to find a solution to stay married and be happy.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> How is it good?
> 
> He moved on to someone else. Were there kids involved? I wonder how they feel about that.


he tried R. this is part of why it failed:



> Went into false reconciliation on her terms and was never going to work


fortunately for him, he still managed to pull himself out of a situation that made him miserable. 

you want FR to do basically the same thing? go into a false R on her terms?


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> he tried R. this is part of why it failed:
> 
> 
> 
> fortunately for him, he still managed to pull himself out of a situation that made him miserable.
> 
> you want FR to do basically the same thing? go into a false R on her terms?


It would not be a false reconciliation. He loves her and wants to keep his family intact. She is showing him how. I bet a counselor would agree with her. 

Btw, have you two sought counseling, Fl?

If you start meeting her needs, she is very likely to meet yours.

And she has not left yet. That is something.


----------



## farsidejunky

Duguesclin said:


> Is that supposed to be a success? He is divorced. FR would like to find a solution to stay married and be happy.


It is when both are not committed to success of the marriage. And it beats the daylights out of limbo.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Duguesclin

azteca1986 said:


> jld did also claims (in gridcom's car crash of a thread) that if _she cheated_, Dug's first reaction would be to ask her how he failed her.
> 
> An atypical male response, I think you'll agree Rosbif.


A typical TAM answer is divorce. I don't think that is success.

Success is reclaiming your marriage by serving each other, not trying to control each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> It is when both are not committed to success of the marriage. And it beats the daylights out of limbo.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Unilateral commitment can work wonders.

It all depends on how much you love her, Fl, and how much inner strength you have.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Unilateral commitment can work wonders.
> 
> It all depends on how much you love her, Fl, and how much inner strength you have.


And how willing she is to commit as well.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> And how willing she is to commit as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


He can get her there.


----------



## azteca1986

Duguesclin said:


> A typical TAM answer is divorce. I don't think that is success.


A typical TAM Reconciliation requires a remorseful wayward. We don't have that here.


> Success is reclaiming your marriage by serving each other, not trying to control each other.


Evidently servitude comes easier to some than others. It has no place in our marriage. We prefer mutual respect. Control doesn't enter the equation unless we're changing TV channels.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> A typical TAM Reconciliation requires a remorseful wayward. We don't have that here.


We don't know that. She may want to express it to her husband, but does not feel able to, right now. With his help, I believe that could change.



> Evidently servitude comes easier to some than others. It has no place in our marriage. We prefer mutual respect. Control doesn't enter the equation unless we're changing TV channels.


Humility is extremely important in marriage. It is just deep honesty. 

And it is certainly present in our marriage. It has to be.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> We don't know that.


We could look at her actions (or lack of them). They are not what you would call remorseful.


> She may want to express it to her husband, but does not feel able to, right now.


We don't know that, as you would say. 


> Humility is extremely important in marriage.


Wouldn't say it's key component of ours. Sense of humour is a biggie. 

Agree with you on honesty. Rosbif's remorseless wayward wife has a long way to go on that front.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> We don't know that, as you would say.


I think some humility from him could bring that out.



> Agree with you on honesty. Rosbif's remorseless wayward wife has a long way to go on that front.


I think he could model it for her, and bring that out.

I am really looking for you to be the leader, Fl.

And you are married to a very intelligent woman. I think even a little bit of leadership from you would bring a return, quickly.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> I think some humility from him could bring that out.
> 
> I think even a little bit of leadership from you would bring a return, quickly.


But.. we don't _know_ that, jld.  Do you see what happens when we apply the same burden of proof to your opinions as you did to dismiss the idea Rosbif's WW is not remorseful?


Duguesclin said:


> Is that supposed to be a success? He is divorced.


Yes, Dug. Open your mind. Divorce can be a successful outcome. 

Remaining married to an unremorseful serial cheater is not "success ", which is the future that awaits Rosbif, I fear.

A succesful outcome has many forms. This one starts off called "Successful Rugsweep". And it was for decades... until The TAM Way® came into effect. And then it wasn't. Resounding success in my book, Rosbif. Call me soft but I find that thread quite moving.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/79609-successful-rugsweep.html


> FR would like to find a solution to stay married and be happy.


Wouldn't we all? But it takes two to tango.


----------



## jld

My approach does not cut optimism off at the pass, azteca. It gives them a chance, and from a loving, hopeful, _constructive _place rather than a fearful one.

Unremorseful serial cheater? I think that is stretching it, azteca.

He has to make himself appealing enough for her to accept to dance with him. She is not obligated. And he is not entitled.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> My approach does not cut optimism off at the pass, azteca.


Could you expand on that, please?


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> Could you expand on that, please?


Not remorseful - > Kick her to the curb. It's obviously over.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> Not remorseful - > Kick her to the curb. It's obviously over.


I see.

Not remorseful = Poor candidate for Reconciliation. Nothing more. 





For now.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> I see.
> 
> Not remorseful = Poor candidate for Reconciliation. Nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For now.


I am looking to Fl to get a gauge on the possibility for reconciliation. I think it is mostly, and perhaps all, on him.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> I am looking to Fl to get a gauge on the possibility for reconciliation. I think it is mostly, and perhaps all, on him.


Oh wow. We're in agreement. "It is mostly, perhaps all on him"... because his WW is not remorseful. Which is why their R (and it's stretching the definition of the term to call it that) is doomed to fail.

Every healthy marriage requires TWO committed, honest participants.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> Oh wow. We're in agreement. "It is mostly, perhaps all on him"... because his WW is not remorseful. Which is why their R (and it's stretching the definition of the term to call it that) is doomed to fail.
> 
> Every healthy marriage requires TWO committed, honest participants.


I think it can _start_ with _one._


----------



## azteca1986

You can think whatever you like, jld. That is the beauty of TAM.

Personally, my experience with partnerships is that, well, it takes two.


----------



## JohnA

Hi FR,

This thread may be of real value to you

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/208202-need-advice-my-wife-cheating.html

Their issues are not the same as your's but the wife's adultery and lack of remorse does. They appear to have stop dancing and try to recommit. It is a long tread spanning over a year and a half, with long gaps in posts, and consists of close to 200 pages. 

I think the other posters are right that she will cause you to divorce. But, if you do go down this path first accept there will be many painful set backs and a slim chance of success. Do not allow false hope and continue to improve yourself. 

The poster did this, is content with himself and were they are. He looks forward to starting a true reconciliation.


----------



## JohnA

PS ground pounder posts were amazing as how the posters used and modified them.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> I think it can _start_ with _one._


i dont just think that. i KNOW it to be true. it certainly can start with just one. 

but, i have never seen it work the way you fantasize about it.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> i dont just think that. i KNOW it to be true. it certainly can start with just one.
> 
> but, i have never seen it work the way you fantasize about it.


This letter from Dr. Harley's site suggests basically the same thing Dug and I do.

What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #1


----------



## jld

This one sounds similar to your situation, Fl:

What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #2


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> This one sounds similar to your situation, Fl:
> 
> What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #2


Are you serious?



> What was her friend doing that she found so irresistible? He probably talked to her, showed an interest in her, was respectful and encouraging, demonstrated his care by being there for her when she needed him. And maybe, most important, he didn't criticize her or try to straighten her out.


To answer your first question Dr. Harley - Her "friend" was fvcking the living ****e out of her. And she loved it. And probably some of the other stuff too. The "friend" was too busy fvcking her to have time to criticise her. So you're probably right on that one Dr.H.

What does this have to with RosbIf?


----------



## jld

Dr. Harley's site, according to Ele and Rose, has a lot more success stories than TAM. And I think his emphasis on meeting needs in love has a lot to do with that.

Fl, take heed.


----------



## As'laDain

i agree with turnera. 
lack of self respect. 


that and he makes some pretty bold statements that arent true. 

*"If you do any of these things, she will find you repulsive, and withdraw from you more than she already has. It will get you nowhere."*

his way of saving a marriage from infidelity obliterates any shred of self respect the man might have for himself. not only does it teach the cheating spouse that they can cheat, but it practically encourages it. the cheating spouse cheats, and is richly rewarded for it. until she is blindsided, of course, by the 180. which, is a plan that he tells husbands to deliberately withhold from their spouses. so, its also not completely honest. they have to compete with the other man in order to win their spouse back, as if they are a trophy. just a prized possession. 

not a person who is to be treated with respect because they earn it through their own choices, but someone to be slyly manipulated without their awareness through a scripted and covert act. 

the whole approach is to treat someone like a queen, essentially saying "now that you have shown me that you do not care at all about how i feel and are dishonest, i am going to do whatever i can to make you feel so loved!" 

yeah.... no.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> Dr. Harley's site, according to Ele and Rose, has a lot more success stories than TAM.


How do these ladies quantify "success"? Maybe it's been around longer than TAM? Happy to look at any data you choose to provide, jld.

From a male perspective Dr. H advocates being a doormat. I don't expect women to be able to really grasp the concept.


----------



## As'laDain

oh, im sure they can grasp it. 

basically, if i want to go run around on my wife with a hotter model, then she should cook special meals for me, dress in sexy lingerie, try to have as much sex with me as possible, go fishing with me, compliment me, etc, and then later on just leave out of the blue. once i break it off with the other woman, she will come back. 

so, i get to have my fun for a while, whenever i want. just cant have it all forever. but hey, at least i know i can cheat on my wife and get some immediate and awesome results from her as soon as she finds out, right?


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> i agree with turnera.
> lack of self respect.
> 
> 
> that and he makes some pretty bold statements that arent true.
> 
> *"If you do any of these things, she will find you repulsive, and withdraw from you more than she already has. It will get you nowhere."*


I think he is right on. And considering he has counseled, directly or indirectly, thousands of couples, I think he must say that for a reason.



> his way of saving a marriage from infidelity obliterates any shred of self respect the man might have for himself. not only does it teach the cheating spouse that they can cheat, but it practically encourages it. the cheating spouse cheats, and is richly rewarded for it. until she is blindsided, of course, by the 180. which, is a plan that he tells husbands to deliberately withhold from their spouses. so, its also not completely honest. they have to compete with the other man in order to win their spouse back, as if they are a trophy. just a prized possession.


Self respect, or pride? Pride is a big stumbling block for a lot of men.

Plan A is to show the wife that the husband can meet her needs, that he can stop the neglect that probably characterized him for years. Plan B is to show her what life without him will feel like. It follows Plan A, if Plan A is not successful on its own, allowing the last memories of life with the BH to be pleasant ones. As far as I understand, Plan B involves physical separation.

He also advises Plan A for as long as husbands can do it, at least six months to a year. It can take a long time for an unfaithful wife to be able to trust her neglectful husband can meet her needs, consistently.



> not a person who is to be treated with respect because they earn it through their own choices, but someone to be slyly manipulated without their awareness through a scripted and covert act.


_You_ are concerned about manipulation, Asla?

I can only recommend Plan A, myself. To me, if he cannot win back her trust that way, they can divorce peacefully. He tried, but it might have been too late. And perhaps the time from filing to the final declaration could be an informal Plan B. Not sure.



> the whole approach is to treat someone like a queen, essentially saying "now that you have shown me that you do not care at all about how i feel and are dishonest, i am going to do whatever i can to make you feel so loved!"
> 
> yeah.... no.


The idea is to treat her the way he always should have. That could have prevented the affair in the first place.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> How do these ladies quantify "success"? Maybe it's been around longer than TAM? Happy to look at any data you choose to provide, jld.
> 
> From a male perspective Dr. H advocates being a doormat. I don't expect women to be able to really grasp the concept.


Let's ask them. 
@EleGirl and @RoseAglow, could you talk about the increased success rates of Dr. Harley's approach over what you have seen here on TAM?


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> oh, im sure they can grasp it.
> 
> basically, if i want to go run around on my wife with a hotter model, then she should cook special meals for me, dress in sexy lingerie, try to have as much sex with me as possible, go fishing with me, compliment me, etc, and then later on just leave out of the blue. once i break it off with the other woman, she will come back.
> 
> so, i get to have my fun for a while, whenever i want. just cant have it all forever. but hey, at least i know i can cheat on my wife and get some immediate and awesome results from her as soon as she finds out, right?


 @SlowlyGoingCrazy

Is Asla's characterization above reflective of your experience with Dr. Harley's advice over at Marriage Builders?


----------



## azteca1986

Talk is cheap. Show me some data.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> Talk is cheap. Show me some data.


I am sure Ele will.


----------



## azteca1986

As'laDain said:


> oh, im sure they can grasp it.
> 
> basically, if i want to go run around on my wife with a hotter model, then she should cook special meals for me, dress in sexy lingerie, try to have as much sex with me as possible, go fishing with me, compliment me, etc, and then later on just leave out of the blue. once i break it off with the other woman, she will come back.
> 
> so, i get to have my fun for a while, whenever i want. just cant have it all forever. but hey, at least i know i can cheat on my wife and get some immediate and awesome results from her as soon as she finds out, right?


You've got it all wrong. Women don't have to do this.

Only men.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> You've got it all wrong. Women don't have to do this.
> 
> Only men.


You could browse the site. There are letters to wives of unfaithful men, too.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> @SlowlyGoingCrazy
> 
> Is Asla's characterization above reflective of your experience with Dr. Harley's advice over at Marriage Builders?


Did he have a remorseless WW to deal with? Otherwise I question the relevance.


jld said:


> I am sure Ele will.


I look forward to pouring over actual, empirical data (not anecdotes).


jld said:


> You could browse the site. There are letters to wives of unfaithful men, too.


And this helps Rosbif, how exactly? He's a BH.


----------



## jld

I think Plan A could help Fl quite a bit. As far as I know, Plan A sounds pretty much like what Dug and I recommend.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> I think he is right on. And considering he has counseled, directly or indirectly, thousands of couples, I think he must say that for a reason.


im sure he does say it for a reason. it sells his books.




> Self respect, or pride? Pride is a big stumbling block for a lot of men.


 a little of both, probably. but who respects themselves by encouraging people to hurt them? yeah, i would call that a lack of self respect.



> Plan A is to show the wife that the husband can meet her needs, that he can stop the neglect that probably characterized him for years. Plan B is to show her what life without him will feel like. It follows Plan A, if Plan A is not successful on its own, allowing the last memories of life with the BH to be pleasant ones. As far as I understand, Plan B involves physical separation.
> 
> He also advises Plan A for as long as husbands can do it, at least six months to a year. It can take a long time for an unfaithful wife to be able to trust her neglectful husband can meet her needs, consistently.


i understand how the plan is supposed to work. it completely disregards and ignores the pain of the betrayed spouse. not only that, but it goes farther, and actually shames them if they feel the need to communicate their pain, labeling that desire the "taker". the message is pretty clear: "dont tell her a word about what agony you are in, that is the evil taker in you trying to make her feel guilty, you dont want to be a taker do you?"




> _You_ are concerned about manipulation, Asla?


yes. you are the one who calls a clearly stated boundary manipulation. what i call manipulation is covert contracts, secret dealings, etc. any intention that is deliberately concealed in order to influence a spouses behavior. the "natural consequences" that you mention are the exact same thing, except that if i state it out loud ahead of time, you label it manipulation. i call it honesty. 



> I can only recommend Plan A, myself. To me, if he cannot win back her trust that way, they can divorce peacefully. He tried, but it might have been too late. And perhaps the time from filing to the final declaration could be an informal Plan B. Not sure.


they could still divorce peacefully if he actually explains his boundaries and limits and she cannot accept them. or, she may find them acceptable, in which case they can build a foundation for reconciliation. 



> The idea is to treat her the way he always should have. That could have prevented the affair in the first place.


possible. hard to do if she is not communicating her needs effectively.


----------



## As'laDain

azteca1986 said:


> You've got it all wrong. Women don't have to do this.
> 
> Only men.


ah, i knew i was misunderstanding somehow!
>


----------



## As'laDain

azteca1986 said:


> *Did he have a remorseless WW to deal with? Otherwise I question the relevance.*
> I look forward to pouring over actual, empirical data (not anecdotes).
> And this helps Rosbif, how exactly? He's a BH.


hmm, good point. my wife _was_ remorseful. after it went PA. looking back, its kinda sad just how much i tried to please her leading up to that point, considering the way she treated me back then.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> I think Plan A could help Fl quite a bit. As far as I know, Plan A sounds pretty much like what Dug and I recommend.


Has it occurred to you and Dug that if Rosbif wanted his WW to paint "WELCOME" on his back so he could prostrate himself in front of her, he'd be on Marriage Builders and not here?


----------



## azteca1986

As'laDain said:


> hmm, good point. my wife _was_ remorseful. after it went PA. looking back, its kinda sad just how much i tried to please her leading up to that point, considering the way she treated me back then.


My other point there, As'laDAin is that SGC is female, which changes things a little. 

I'm not saying there aren't similarities, but the differences are crucial. As an analogy: As men and women, we could all sit round talking about shaving. It's similar, but not quite the same, you know?


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> im sure he does say it for a reason. it sells his books.
> 
> He has experience with thousands of couples.
> 
> a little of both, probably. but who respects themselves by encouraging people to hurt them? yeah, i would call that a lack of self respect.


It does take strength for a man to humble himself when he feels aggrieved, and seek to serve the weaker person first.



> i understand how the plan is supposed to work. it completely disregards and ignores the pain of the betrayed spouse. not only that, but it goes farther, and actually shames them if they feel the need to communicate their pain, labeling that desire the "taker".  the message is pretty clear: "dont tell her a word about what agony you are in, that is the evil taker in you trying to make her feel guilty, you dont want to be a taker do you?"


It is more about doing what works than casting a moral judgment. 

Again, he has lots of experience over decades. He surely has a reason for what he recommends.



> yes. you are the one who calls *a clearly stated boundary manipulation. * i call manipulation is covert contracts, secret dealings, etc. any intention that is deliberately concealed in order to influence a spouses behavior. the "natural consequences" that you mention are the exact same thing, except that if i state it out loud ahead of time, you label it manipulation. i call it honesty.


If a woman does not feel free to walk away from his conditions, what else can it be? 

Meaning, if she has no job, perhaps a good chance of losing her children, and no outside support, is she truly free to say No? Or is he using his greater power to coerce her into accepting his conditions?

Not saying this about Fl, but in general.



> they could still divorce peacefully if he actually explains his boundaries and limits and she cannot accept them.


Again, as long as she feels free to walk away.



> or, she may find them acceptable, in which case they can build a foundation for reconciliation.


Fl's wife has been clear about what could work with her. An objection based on his pride or the belief that he is the true victim and must be pacified is unlikely to move them forward.



> possible. hard to do if she is not communicating her needs effectively.


I think she would open up if he would start meeting the needs he likely is already aware of in her.

Also, they may be in MC. That would be a great help.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> Has it occurred to you and Dug that if Rosbif wanted his WW to paint "WELCOME" on his back so he could prostrate himself in front of her, he'd be on Marriage Builders and not here?


He may not even know about MB.


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> If a woman does not feel free to walk away from his conditions, what else can it be?
> 
> Meaning, if she has no job, perhaps a good chance of losing her children, and no outside support, is she truly free to say No? Or is he using his greater power to coerce her into accepting his conditions?
> 
> Not saying this about Fl, but in general.


really? so just because the alternative to being willing to compromise and work on a marriage is scary, its not a free choice? 

i didnt realize women had no free will when faced with making uncomfortable decisions.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> It does take strength for a man to humble himself when he feels aggrieved, and seek to serve the weaker person first.


Many men are not servile. 


> Again, he has lots of experience over decades. He surely has a reason for what he recommends.


I may have got this wrong, but doesn't the good doctor say he'd divorce if his wife cheated on him?


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> If a woman does not feel free to walk away from his conditions, what else can it be?
> 
> Meaning, if she has no job, perhaps a good chance of losing her children, and no outside support, is she truly free to say No? Or is he using his greater power to coerce her into accepting his conditions?
> 
> Not saying this about Fl, but in general.


Boundaries are what you are and are not willing to put up with. It has nothing to do with your partner. They are free to do what they want.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> really? so just because the alternative to being willing to compromise and work on a marriage is scary, its not a free choice?
> 
> i didnt realize women had no free will when faced with making uncomfortable decisions.


If they feel free to walk away from conditions they consider unacceptable, it's fine. 

If they feel coerced into accepting his conditions, it is unlikely that a true reconciliation will take place. 

I have heard of women who have stayed for years because they did not feel they could leave, for various reasons. They basically bowed to the man, placated him.

As women continue getting educationally and financially empowered, I hope this will be less of a concern.


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> Many men are not servile.


Many men do not have the inner strength to examine their consciences and admit their wrongdoings.



> I may have got this wrong, but doesn't the good doctor say he'd divorce if his wife cheated on him?


Dr. Harley? I have never heard that. Do you have a reference?


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> Boundaries are what you are and are not willing to put up with. It has nothing to do with your partner. They are free to do what they want.


I think to have true peace in a marriage, both people need to feel their needs are being met. Not just one.

I think this can happen in Fl's marriage. I am just asking him to take the first step.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> Many men do not have the inner strength to examine their consciences and admit their wrongdoings.


And many men do.


> Dr. Harley? I have never heard that. Do you have a reference?


I think Ele can clarify when she rolls in here with her data


----------



## jld

azteca1986 said:


> And many men do.
> I think Ele can clarify when she rolls in here with her data


So you just made that up?


----------



## As'laDain

jld said:


> If they feel free to walk away from conditions they consider unacceptable, it's fine.
> 
> If they feel coerced into accepting his conditions, it is unlikely that a true reconciliation will take place.
> 
> I have heard of women who have stayed for years because they did not feel they could leave, for various reasons. They basically bowed to the man, placated him.
> 
> As women continue getting educationally and financially empowered, I hope this will be less of a concern.


jld, if the financial difficulties of leaving are what bothers you about setting conditions for R, then why are you suggesting that FR follow his WIFES conditions for R. she is, after all, the breadwinner. 
she doesnt really want to resolve anything, of course. she just wants him to shut up about it because its old history, no big deal. didnt bother her at all.

according to you, that means he doesnt have a choice. he has to bow to the woman, placate her. or does that only apply to women?

that whole argument is BS. everyone has a choice.


----------



## azteca1986

jld said:


> So you just made that up?


No. Get Dug to help you to learn to read.


----------



## jld

As'laDain said:


> jld, if the financial difficulties of leaving are what bothers you about setting conditions for R, then why are you suggesting that FR follow his WIFES conditions for R. she is, after all, the breadwinner.
> she doesnt really want to resolve anything, of course. she just wants him to shut up about it because its old history, no big deal. didnt bother her at all.
> 
> according to you, that means he doesnt have a choice. he has to bow to the woman, placate her. or does that only apply to women?
> 
> that whole argument is BS. everyone has a choice.


I think she is willing to resolve their issues, if he starts meeting her needs. I don't recall her saying she actually wants a divorce. I can believe she is conflicted, though.

Fl, do you feel trapped? 

You stopped working a year or two ago, correct? Did you lose your job, or quit? What are your odds of getting another job at this point?

Do you know how long you would get alimony?


----------



## jld

Also, Fl, you said you love her and want to stay with her. 

Is your love the reason you want to reconcile? 

Or is it for financial or other practical reasons?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> @SlowlyGoingCrazy
> 
> Is Asla's characterization above reflective of your experience with Dr. Harley's advice over at Marriage Builders?


LOL not at all, I didn't read the whole thread, just the last page that led to the quote so I could figure out the context but you are pretty spot on. 

The part that people miss is the "stick" part of the Plan A. 
The affair must end, go NC and the unfaithful spouse must recommit to the marriage. 

The other side of that is you want to be the kind of person your spouse would want to be with. 
Meet their emotional needs, be a good partner and father, spend enough time alone together to build a loving bond (he finds this is at least 15 hours a week)

_Some _women are attracted to @ssholish behavior. IMO it's no different than those guys you see who always seem to end up with a raging b*tch, they seem to thrive on the drama or whatever. A friend of my H's is like that. But I hate whenever I see the advice that all women like a man who does this and that. Most of the time I read it and think "wow, my man would be laughed out on his butt if he tried to pull that crap" it just screams weak and sad to me. Extremely unattractive. 

At the same time though, no one likes horrible self esteem and no confidence but the mistake is to confuse real, inner confidence with fake bravado. Get all ripped and don't take sh*t from no one. That's fake. 

The things I find most women want; Listen, spend time, communicate and actually listen, show affection, sex, acts of service. We're not too terribly complicated. 

But it'll be specific to what their wife needs. 

Some put attraction high on their list so going to the gym is a good idea, for others it's so low and time together is so much higher than losing that time that could have been spent together - maybe going on a hike or walk, trying out rock climbing or dancing- together would be counterproductive. 


Now that I've already rambled, in my own marriage after my H's affair was out and over I got to work on the carrot part. I was the woman he'd want to be with, I met his EN, I curbed my anger and used other methods - journal, walks- to vent. We spent time together, we went on dates, we worked together on projects.
I fixed me, I focused on my own page and accepted my own role in things getting so bad. 

Soon after I was seeing returns on my investments, I was getting my needs met. I was getting true remorse, he couldn't believe he was so close to losing me, I was able to trust again. 

6 months later and other than some bumps, we are better than we ever were before. Closer, more in love, more respect.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Wow, you've all been very busy in my absence! Certainly given me lots to think about. After a bad weekend my wife and I have had a productive talk, so am feeling a bit more positive.

One of my problem issues was staying here in Miami, since the affair the place just seems toxic to me. So many triggers in the neighbourhood and our group of friends. Having said that, our friends (once I told them all what had been going on) have largely dropped the OM like a hot potato (he had been trying to snare other friends' wives too) so are giving my couple good support.

Anyway, in our discussion we did agree that relocating away from here would be an option, though of course such things are logistically complicated with 3 kids at school. My WS would only accept to do so if we have a plan and think that we can work it out - I can understand her point of view, no point moving with the same problems still ongoing in the couple.

Anyway, from a few days of blackness just thinking divorce I am accepting giving it more time and working on myself and our relationship. It might help that the temperature has finally dropped here and it's actually a nice place to be for the moment!

We have a had a session of MC and will be going again this week. One thing I wanted to ask opinions on, a friend back in Europe gave me a big talk on how I should be applying the ideas behind the 5 languages of love to determine what we both need to feel emotionally fulfilled - is this something that people here have found useful?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I like 5 love languages, it is similar to marriage builder's emotional needs section too The Most Important Emotional Needs
I personally like MB a little better, it kind of breaks them down more in a way I was able to understand better but check out both and see which one you like.


----------



## anchorwatch

Florida_rosbif said:


> We have a had a session of MC and will be going again this week. One thing I wanted to ask opinions on, a friend back in Europe gave me a big talk on how I should be applying the ideas behind the 5 languages of love to determine what we both need to feel emotionally fulfilled - is this something that people here have found useful?


Very useful! 

Dr. Chapman's "5LL" and Dr. Harley's His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage are recommended reading here amongst the members. "HNHN" is clearer and more in depth. 

It would do you well to at least familiarise yourself with the ideas promoted in the books. 

A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

Home | The 5 Love Languages® | Improving Millions of Relationships? One Language at a Time.

Best


----------



## Tron

FL,

As some of the others said, I would also highly recommend you read both the 5 Love Languages and His Needs Her Needs.

That goes for your W too. If she is wanting to stay in the marriage, that would indicate to me a demonstrable step in the right direction.


----------



## RoseAglow

I haven't read the thread, I only saw jld's tag and read from that point on.

OP, if you are interested in talking to Dr Harley you can email him at [email protected]. 

Despite what you read on TAM, he does not encourage men to be doormats. He encourages men to be strong, to be leaders. He encourages men to go full force to kill the affair. As SGC noted, TAMers usually gloss over or outright miss the "stick" of the MB program. 

Harley recommends that both men and women go into Plan A once they discover the affair. The "stick" of plan A is wide-spread exposure, including to kids age 4 and up plus friends and family of the AP. Workplace should be exposed if the affair took place at work. All legal and safe means to disrupt the affair should be used. A good Plan A will have the WS extremely angry because it will be very difficult to continue the affair.

The "carrot" of plan A is what seems to set off many TAMers. Plan A is a statement and demonstration that the BS can and will meet the WS's emotional needs and will build a strong marriage if the WS ends the affair. The BS becomes the best spouse they can be in Plan A. The BS eliminates all "love busting" behavior. The BS is often encouraged to file for divorce to protect them financially while dragging out the divorce and refusing to talk about divorced with the WS ("the lawyers will discuss a divorce. I will talk with you about rebuilding our marriage once you've ended your affair.") 

In general, for both men and women, a weak spouse is an unattractive spouse. BS are encouraged to tell the WS that the affair is devastating, incredibly painful, horrible for the BS. It's honest. They need to do it though without becoming a sobbing, unstable, screaming mess. In Plan A, the BS becomes a strong, safe, stable, excellent spouse.

It is true that women are only encouraged to do plan A for a very short amount of time. This is because affairs in general and plan A specifically are very difficult. Women tend to get emotionally and physically sick if they stay in Plan A for very long. Women are generally encouraged to do Plan A for as long as it takes to set up Plan B, which is total no-contact darkness, where an intermediary is used for any communication between spouses. 

Men are encouraged to do Plan A for as long as they are able without getting ill or losing their love for the WS; this is usually between 6 months to two years, or upon divorce. If a male BS begins to unravel emotionally and/or hate their WS, they are also encouraged to go into Plan B. 

Once the affair has ended, WS and BS begin to create a much improved marriage. They agree to extraordinary precautions (e.g. set up very strong boundaries) so that another affair is not possible. The WS provides just compensation to the BS. The spouses spend 20+ hours alone together/undivided attention each week, focusing on meeting each other's top emotional needs. Each spouse eliminates their love busting behaviors. Spouses practice the "policy of joint agreement" and "radical honesty" so that the marriage is comprised of transparency and win-wins. 

If a WS will not agree to the extraordinary precautions and/or the rest of the rebuilding, the BS is encouraged to divorce. The reason is because per Dr. Harley, all affairs are started due to poor marital boundaries. This is why affairs happen in good marriages, where there was a lot of love and low conflict prior to the affair. An AP gets past the boundaries, the WS begins to fall in love and compare the BS against the new and shiny AP and of course the BS loses that competition. 

The only way either spouse can be safe in the marriage is to enact and maintain strong marital boundaries. The only way spouses can be happy in their marriage is if they are safe and their emotional needs are being met. MB is not about staying married at any cost. A WS, or a BS, who will not agree to maintain strong boundaries and meet the spouses emotional needs should be booted off the marital island.

Dr. Harley believes that most affairs die within 2 years of being discovered, and that most will die within 6 months of a strong exposure. His plans A and B are basically strategies for the BS to outlast the affair. A BS who can stay in Plan A has a highly increased likelihood that the WS will return to them once the affair ends. A BS who went into Plan B has an increased likelihood of still wanting their WS, should the WS return. If the affair never ends, a BS in Plan A knows not only that they did everything possible to save the marriage, but also that s/he is very strong emotionally and has the skill and ability to be an excellent spouse for a future relationship. A BS who went into a strong Plan B will normally be nearly if not entirely recovered by the time a divorce goes through, assuming it takes a year or more. They will have spent that time rebuilding their life with no or minimal exposure to the WS.

As to success statistics, I don't know of any hard stats. I don't know how you'd even get them, you can't get them for TAM either. What exactly would one measure? We don't know the outcomes of many posters here, let alone lurkers who are using the advice given to other posters.

The forums at MB have success stories, where success is either a happy, strong, recovered marriage, or divorce from a cheater who won't change his/her ways. They also have successes where marriages recover from non-infidelity problems. However, the MB forums are very hard-core. They do not allow for any deviations from what the posters believe are the official MB plans. I have seen the MB forum choir berate a poster for following the recommendation from an MB coach because the coach didn't follow or prioritize "properly". Posters who do not follow the advice have their threads closed. I would not recommend anyone post there. I recommend people write Dr Harley and get his advice directly. I suspect that there are many people like SGC who follow the plan but don't post. You also hear some success stories if you listen to the MB radio program. 

What we do know is that Dr Harley has been in business for decades. He offers pretty much all of his information on his free website or on his free radio program. If you write to him, he gives his books away for free. He's written many books for people who want more details and he offers coaching/counseling for couples who want more support. Despite providing the vast majority of his program for free, he still maintains his business. His plans make a lot of sense once they are actually read (versus debated on a forum by many people who have not read the material).

What is also true: TAM itself shows that MB is pretty much on target. Many people who come here for help end up divorced (divorce is sometimes the best outcome.) Most of the affairs do end within two years of being discovered, and affairs that were exposed usually end sooner. Most WW do tend to express remorse much later after the affair ends, usually after divorce. TAM posters tend to attribute it to the boundary/divorce being done. By this point, these the family is already destroyed. However, you see the same remorse come later in marriages where there was no divorce. On MB you see men who kept their family together. When the remorse came, the marriage was much stronger and well into recovery.

MB offers a plan for killing the affair, moving into reconciliation where possible, and rebuilding a better, stronger marriage afterwards. The plan also helps determine when to call it quits. You can get it all for free on the website, and more details are available in the books. I am in no way affiliated with MB, it's just what I've read up on and use in my own marriage (no known infidelity).

So this is my MB post by request. It's written late after The a Walking Dead mid season finale, on an infuriating mini iPad, so sorry for any errors. I have several deadlines this week so I will not likely be posting for a few days but I'll be sure to check in. 

OP, I haven't read your thread yet but I wish you the best, whatever you decide to do.


----------



## RoseAglow

Florida_rosbif said:


> Wow, you've all been very busy in my absence! Certainly given me lots to think about. After a bad weekend my wife and I have had a productive talk, so am feeling a bit more positive.
> 
> One of my problem issues was staying here in Miami, since the affair the place just seems toxic to me. So many triggers in the neighbourhood and our group of friends. Having said that, our friends (once I told them all what had been going on) have largely dropped the OM like a hot potato (he had been trying to snare other friends' wives too) so are giving my couple good support.
> 
> Anyway, in our discussion we did agree that relocating away from here would be an option, though of course such things are logistically complicated with 3 kids at school. My WS would only accept to do so if we have a plan and think that we can work it out - I can understand her point of view, no point moving with the same problems still ongoing in the couple.
> 
> Anyway, from a few days of blackness just thinking divorce I am accepting giving it more time and working on myself and our relationship. It might help that the temperature has finally dropped here and it's actually a nice place to be for the moment!
> 
> We have a had a session of MC and will be going again this week. One thing I wanted to ask opinions on, a friend back in Europe gave me a big talk on how I should be applying the ideas behind the 5 languages of love to determine what we both need to feel emotionally fulfilled - is this something that people here have found useful?


OP, I can tell you, without reading the rest of your thread, that Dr. Harley would recommend that your family moves and you get away from the triggers. It will also help to put some physical distance between your wife and her AP. It's not a guarantee but it makes it more difficult for them to start back up again (I'm assuming that the affair is off at this time.) Your kids will be much better off if you and your wife can recover your marriage. 

If your WS is open to a plan, I think the book "surviving an affair" would be a great start.


----------



## RoseAglow

azteca1986 said:


> Many men are not servile.
> I may have got this wrong, but doesn't the good doctor say he'd divorce if his wife cheated on him?


Dr. Harley has said that he supports anyone who would choose to get divorced due to infidelity. His advice in that case is to get a good lawyer and to go into a permanent Plan B/no contact. The rest of his infidelity-related work is focused on people who want to reconcile.

He has said that he and his wife already live a highly integrated life with strong boundaries, so if she cheated they couldn't really make their life any more affair-proof than it already is, and so he would consider divorce. He has also said that if she were to cheat, he is confident that she would respond to his plan after 50 years of an excellent marriage and they could recover.



azteca1986 said:


> No. Get Dug to help you to learn to read.


You might not like her posts, but this response really makes you look small and petty.


----------



## jld

Thanks very much for your input, @RoseAglow, especially when you are so busy.


----------



## turnera

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I like 5 love languages, it is similar to marriage builder's emotional needs section too The Most Important Emotional Needs
> I personally like MB a little better, it kind of breaks them down more in a way I was able to understand better but check out both and see which one you like.


I agree. Read 5 Love Languages, but THEN read His Needs Her Needs - together - and follow the instructions, including filling out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire and the Love Buster Questionnaire.

I personally think the Love Buster Questionnaire is even more important, because it teaches you what YOU are doing that upsets HER, so that you can then remove those habits or actions; resentment over love busters is a far greater marriage killer than not meeting needs, IMO. 

Just avoid the MB forum; it's toxic.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> I agree. Read 5 Love Languages, but THEN read His Needs Her Needs - together - and follow the instructions, including filling out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire and the Love Buster Questionnaire.
> 
> I personally think the Love Buster Questionnaire is even more important, because it teaches you what YOU are doing that upsets HER, so that you can then remove those habits or actions; resentment over love busters is a far greater marriage killer than not meeting needs, IMO.
> 
> Just avoid the MB forum; it's toxic.


It does seem controlling over there, from the little bit I have read. Much better to have open-ended conversation, with a variety of viewpoints. 

The material can still be helpful, though.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Thank you Roseaglow, all very interesting. We are already successfully in the NC and the affair is over, my wife says that she is over the EA side of it all, it just remains for me to recover from the PA side of what went on. :-(

I will print out the appropriate reading for her from the info proposed and have a sit down to discuss. As is the case for many couples, I think that our marriage would have ended the day that she told me about the PA, if there were no children in the mix. While many will say "you can't stay together for the kids", they can give you the reason to do the necessary work to try to catch the dropped ball. I do not want them to be the unwitting victims.


----------



## jld

Fl, did you see those financial questions I asked you? Do you feel financially dependent on her? Do you feel at a power disadvantage to her?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Ya, sadly the MB forum is like a cult. You deviate even a tiny bit from what the Dr says and they attack like a pack of wild dogs.

I love MB material but nothing fits 100% and you have to adjust things for your own marriage and life. I'd still recommend going through all the rest of the website though. His videos are ones my H can actually get into. Short enough, he's logical and to the point. He makes sense in a way my H understands. 

And OP, had I not had kids I would have walked so many times by now. But you are so right. Staying - miserable - is not good for the kids. If you're going to stay - work towards the marriage you'd want your own children in. Don't just end up another bitter partner counting down the days until the last one turns 18 so you can escape..


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## As'laDain

reading more of the good Dr's writing, i find that he does not suggest a spouse forgive an unremorseful wayward.


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## farsidejunky

As'laDain said:


> reading more of the good Dr's writing, i find that he does not suggest a spouse forgive an unremorseful wayward.


Yup. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Ya, sadly the MB forum is like a cult. You deviate even a tiny bit from what the Dr says and they attack like a pack of wild dogs.
> 
> I love MB material but nothing fits 100% and you have to adjust things for your own marriage and life. I'd still recommend going through all the rest of the website though. His videos are ones my H can actually get into. Short enough, he's logical and to the point. He makes sense in a way my H understands.
> 
> And OP, had I not had kids I would have walked so many times by now. But you are so right. Staying - miserable - is not good for the kids. If you're going to stay - work towards the marriage you'd want your own children in. Don't just end up another bitter partner counting down the days until the last one turns 18 so you can escape..


What drew me to the MB was finding that first letter I linked here. It sounded much like what I told grid, that by being kind and understanding with your wife, you can win her back. Seeing that someone with a lot of experience counseling couples seemed to be saying the same was heartening. 

I do find some of his ideas too controlling for my tastes, though. I am not saying he does not have his reasons for recommending what he does, but you have to feel comfortable using his methods, too. And the things I find too controlling are probably just not things I myself could do.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

jld said:


> Fl, did you see those financial questions I asked you? Do you feel financially dependent on her? Do you feel at a power disadvantage to her?


Financially dependant on my wife? To a certain extent in that I earn occasional consulting fees while here and that money stays in Europe to cover our expenses over there, so I don't have the same spending liberty here. Though I'm a "wise money user", before coming here I never worried about budgeting things and if I wanted man toys I bought what I want. But I sold the sports car before leaving Paris and have been living far more abstemiously here.

Nonetheless, I have an engineering speciality that gives me confidence that I can find work, though it would help if the oil and gas industry bucked it's ideas up! And when I worked full time, I earned more than my wife, so don't have an inferiority complex in this regard.


----------



## Thor

JohnA said:


> Hi Thor,
> 
> On your personal threads I either missed or you have not stated that your wife has in fact had an affair. Rather there is no valid reason to believe that she has not. Acceptance of her reason why she did not is akin to buying a 500 million dollar lottery ticket. Is that still the case?


Wow this thread grew fast all of a sudden!

Just to close the loop on your question, yes there is still no absolute proof or confession of her having affair(s). Plenty of red flags and even a smoking gun or two. My assumption is yes there was at least one affair. AP identities uncertain.


----------



## Thor

JohnA said:


> Thro, how did your wife address her resentment and inability to be a sole breadwinner?


She never truly addressed it in terms of understanding it. I think it is one of those hardwiring issues, where it is self evident that the situation is wrong. Thus there is nothing for one to question about themselves. Just like certain foods taste awful, and it is self evident, thus there is nothing wrong with me that I don't like those foods. There is no reason to contemplate it even though there are other people who do like those foods.

The antidote was for me to get a good paying job so that she was not carrying the responsibility for feeding the family.


----------



## JohnA

Hi FR.

I've seen your posts on your joke thread and "worst thing about...". From these posts it seems like the health of your marriage is worsening, not improving. While not good, it is often normal. What steps are you taking (and your WS) taking to rebuild the marriage?

Early on in your thread you shared a comment she made to you that caused me not to hit the ceiling, but blow right though it: "how can I regret something I enjoyed!".

Has she taken any ownership yet?

Have you helped her deal with her stress of being the sole breadwinner? Has she better defined her issues with the marriage? 

At this point it does seem like you need to find a way to do both plan "B" and plan "A" from MB. Note I put plan "B" before "A". What steps have you taken to plan a post divorce life? Knowing that you have a post divorce life in place, then reveling it most likely cause her to wake up. 

Can you see why that my true?


----------



## JohnA

To posters that respond to my last point:

I SAID PLAN "B" BEFORE PLAN "A". I assume you think her affair should be exposed far and wide and any child over the agenof four be told (in none graphic terms) about the adultery. If so you are on track with Dr H.


----------



## jld

@Florida_rosbif

How are things going, FR?


----------



## Tron

Bump,

How goes it FR?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Ok, a long overdue update on what’s happening in my marriage. I guess I'm not really looking for advice as am a bit past that, but it is clearly cathartic to put pen to a paper, so to speak.

Since my wife revealed the affair last year we have been through the classic stages, frenzied coupling, a never ending cycle of mental torture for me, sexual doubt and libido reduction, chronically bad sleep patterns, etc. 

Her affair has stopped, of that I have no doubt, and she's clearly over it. Her problem has therefore been me, and she doesn't seem to get that I'm still a pathetic shadow of the man that I was with a gaping hole in my chest where my heart used to be. She really can't understand that I'm still hung up on the affair and incapable of moving on – maybe she's right but I'm still thinking about it every day, triggers, as you term them, seem to surround me..

About 10 months ago I decided to stop initiating any sexual activity, I guess my childish logic being to make her try to fix what she had done. Well she's never been the initiator, so that had predictable results, we live like room mates. Sleep in the same bed, are perfectly civil, no fighting, but clearly no tenderness, hugging or lovemaking either. My attitude has been “I’m here for the kids, doesn't matter if I have to live like a ****ing monk wanking myself to death, I'll put off the fun until later.”

Once I made that attitude change in my head it affected my perception of my wife – I see her naked, it leaves me cold, zero desire. I assume that she feels the same as she has never raised the subject, so here we are all these months later in a loveless relationship. I think we are both starting to crack up as it is not a natural way to live. I’m getting increasingly infatuated (platonically) with a cute divorcee that I see at dog walks early Sunday morning, my wife is raising the idea of selling our house so we can split the money and buy two smaller ones, separation effectively. 

The issues?
-	I still hate Miami and would leave it forever in the blink of an eye. Very hard to invest in a long term life here when all I want to do is go!
-	I'm still not working as the oil industry is currently ****ed and doesn't exist in Miami. 
-	I haven't been brave enough to take on a ****ty lower paid job while waiting for my industry to recover – working long days is ok if the money's good…..
-	My kids are at school here and at least for the next 2 years will continue to be (once 2nd kid finishes high school).
-	If I give up on the situation and go back to Europe I'm leaving my kids behind and that would be bad for them and I.
-	If I agree to sale of the house and separation then I will be with my kids only 50% of the time versus the current 100%. Not very motivating.
-	If I don't agree to the sale of the house my wife may crack up and lose her job, putting the family in a potentially tricky situation.

The positive points?
-	Have discovered that golf is therapy.
-	Dog love is blind and faithful.
-	First child is launched and will do ok at university (if he stops drinking beer and screwing around!).

My conclusion is that the current situation is not stable, my wife will crack up and force the issue. And I understand, she wants to move on and her partner is now damaged goods. Whether she feels any guilt I have no idea, and I suppose by this stage it's irrelevant anyway. 

So there you have it, another marriage on the route to separation and divorce because (from my perspective) of an affair that I can’t get over.


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> Ok, a long overdue update on what’s happening in my marriage. I guess I'm not really looking for advice as am a bit past that, but it is clearly cathartic to put pen to a paper, so to speak.
> 
> Since my wife revealed the affair last year we have been through the classic stages, frenzied coupling, a never ending cycle of mental torture for me, sexual doubt and libido reduction, chronically bad sleep patterns, etc.
> 
> Her affair has stopped, of that I have no doubt, and she's clearly over it. Her problem has therefore been me, and she doesn't seem to get that I'm still a pathetic shadow of the man that I was with a gaping hole in my chest where my heart used to be. She really can't understand that I'm still hung up on the affair and incapable of moving on – maybe she's right but I'm still thinking about it every day, triggers, as you term them, seem to surround me..
> 
> About 10 months ago I decided to stop initiating any sexual activity, I guess my childish logic being to make her try to fix what she had done. Well she's never been the initiator, so that had predictable results, we live like room mates. Sleep in the same bed, are perfectly civil, no fighting, but clearly no tenderness, hugging or lovemaking either. My attitude has been “I’m here for the kids, doesn't matter if I have to live like a ****ing monk wanking myself to death, I'll put off the fun until later.”
> 
> Once I made that attitude change in my head it affected my perception of my wife – I see her naked, it leaves me cold, zero desire. I assume that she feels the same as she has never raised the subject, so here we are all these months later in a loveless relationship. I think we are both starting to crack up as it is not a natural way to live. I’m getting increasingly infatuated (platonically) with a cute divorcee that I see at dog walks early Sunday morning, my wife is raising the idea of selling our house so we can split the money and buy two smaller ones, separation effectively.
> 
> The issues?
> -	I still hate Miami and would leave it forever in the blink of an eye. Very hard to invest in a long term life here when all I want to do is go!
> -	I'm still not working as the oil industry is currently ****ed and doesn't exist in Miami.
> -	I haven't been brave enough to take on a ****ty lower paid job while waiting for my industry to recover – working long days is ok if the money's good…..
> -	My kids are at school here and at least for the next 2 years will continue to be (once 2nd kid finishes high school).
> -	If I give up on the situation and go back to Europe I'm leaving my kids behind and that would be bad for them and I.
> -	If I agree to sale of the house and separation then I will be with my kids only 50% of the time versus the current 100%. Not very motivating.
> -	If I don't agree to the sale of the house my wife may crack up and lose her job, putting the family in a potentially tricky situation.
> 
> The positive points?
> -	Have discovered that golf is therapy.
> -	Dog love is blind and faithful.
> -	First child is launched and will do ok at university (if he stops drinking beer and screwing around!).
> 
> My conclusion is that the current situation is not stable, my wife will crack up and force the issue. And I understand, she wants to move on and her partner is now damaged goods. Whether she feels any guilt I have no idea, and I suppose by this stage it's irrelevant anyway.
> 
> So there you have it, another marriage on the route to separation and divorce because (from my perspective) of an affair that I can’t get over.


Hi, FR. Thanks for the update. I have wondered how you were doing.

A friend mentioned this book recently. You may find it helpful:

https://www.amazon.com/Marriage-Makeover-Finding-Happiness-Imperfect/dp/0312330936

Are you still in MC?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Hi jld - no gave up MC very quickly. It seems that neither of us are really fighting to save this, me through a stubborn reaction to injustice, her just because she loves it here and want to share it with someone who feels the same I guess.


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> Hi jld - no gave up MC very quickly. It seems that neither of us are really fighting to save this, me through a stubborn reaction to injustice, her just because she loves it here and want to share it with someone who feels the same I guess.


At least you are honest, FR. That will help you move on and heal. 

All the best to you and yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Limbo hell, FR.

I am sorry it has come to this. You are faced with a lesser of two evils.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you are going to have to choose one.

Sorry reconciliation did not suit the two of you.


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## JohnA

Your wife confuses me. Why is she still married? 

Biggest lesson I learned when my college fiancé broke up with: sometimes in life it is not what I or others think that matter, it is what your spouce thinks and feel. 

Have the two of your ever discussed why she never initiates ?


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## Florida_rosbif

Re. The initiation I don't know, I think that it is the case in many couples. In general men want it more than women so initiate, hence the women never feel that they have to? What I do know is that it puts all the "risk" of being rejected on the man who is effectively begging for sex.

I just decided that after what my wife had done, I was wounded enough and didn't need further rejection, she could try carrying the baton in the sexual relay race. She never even tried to pick up the baton and just resents me more. Stupid thing is, I know that a marriage can not be repaired if there is no tenderness, and the tenderness can only be rekindled by making love, but once I had adopted a "**** you" mindset it very quickly became ingrained and I stopped thinking about her as a potential sexual partner. There's also an element of punishment in there I suppose, but the reality is that the consequences are for the whole marriage and hence the children too. 

I think the desire is to see the WS do the heavy lifting, and hell, why not lump initiation in as an item on the lifting list. Mistake on my part, maybe.


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> Re. The initiation I don't know, I think that it is the case in many couples. In general men want it more than women so initiate, hence the women never feel that they have to? What I do know is that it puts all the "risk" of being rejected on the man who is effectively begging for sex.
> 
> I just decided that after what my wife had done, I was wounded enough and didn't need further rejection, she could try carrying the baton in the sexual relay race. She never even tried to pick up the baton and just resents me more. Stupid thing is, I know that a marriage can not be repaired if there is no tenderness, and the tenderness can only be rekindled by making love, but once I had adopted a "**** you" mindset it very quickly became ingrained and I stopped thinking about her as a potential sexual partner. There's also an element of punishment in there I suppose, but the reality is that the consequences are for the whole marriage and hence the children too.
> 
> *I think the desire is to see the WS do the heavy lifting, and hell, why not lump initiation in as an item on the lifting list. Mistake on my part, maybe.*


I think so, FR. The stronger person is the one better able to take the leadership role in the marriage. Having an affair is not a sign of strength, at least in my opinion.

Did you click on the book link I gave you? That psychologist says that in many cases, even if the marriage is not satisfying for the couple, there are real advantages for the kids in having the couple stay together. That is not a popular view on TAM, but it is the view of that psychologist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Florida_rosbif said:


> Re. The initiation I don't know, I think that it is the case in many couples. In general men want it more than women so initiate, hence the women never feel that they have to? What I do know is that it puts all the "risk" of being rejected on the man who is effectively begging for sex.
> 
> I just decided that after what my wife had done, I was wounded enough and didn't need further rejection, she could try carrying the baton in the sexual relay race. She never even tried to pick up the baton and just resents me more. Stupid thing is, I know that a marriage can not be repaired if there is no tenderness, and the tenderness can only be rekindled by making love, but once I had adopted a "**** you" mindset it very quickly became ingrained and I stopped thinking about her as a potential sexual partner. There's also an element of punishment in there I suppose, but the reality is that the consequences are for the whole marriage and hence the children too.
> 
> I think the desire is to see the WS do the heavy lifting, and hell, why not lump initiation in as an item on the lifting list. Mistake on my part, maybe.


In other words, you have NOT discussed it with her.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Hiya Rosbif,

I agree with the others. I am not sure why your wife has chosen to stay. She is clearly unaffected by the impact of her affair on you.

She quite easily had an affair with some oaf from France, and then just as easily decided to end it. It seems to be all about her. She wants to have an affair. She wants to stay in Miami. She wanted a separation. She then decided not to have the separation. And you are just being dragged along with what she wants. Worst of all, she showed no remorse and still continues to do so while still being in touch with the [email protected] as if nothing happened.

I would say that:


She doesn't love you.

She doesn't respect you,

She is only focussed on her self, her career, he happiness with out a care in the world for you.

She doesn't really care if you leave so long as you don't disrupt her life (including the children).

You had started to detach and now seem to be stuck.


Why are you still with her ?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Correct, have never raised the subject of lack of sex with her, just let her come to her own conclusions. 

Am still here purely because of the kids. My way out has always been the option of leaving this damned place and going somewhere where my industry exists, be that in Europe or the US. Either way I'd be leaving my kids behind and I know that that is not going to make me happy......


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> Either way I'd be leaving my kids behind and I know that that is not going to make me happy......


Probably would not make them happy, either.

Opening the lines of communication and taking responsibility where you honestly can could go a long way towards improving things, FR.


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## farsidejunky

So in other words, rather than taking the reigns to improve your situation, you are resigning yourself to someone else to make the choice for you.

Am I reading that right?


----------



## anchorwatch

His resentment will not allow it, @farsidejunky. Most don't recover. It's too much of a hurdle, no matter what she does. Even if he could get over the resentment of the Miami life change, the betrayal in return has tipped his scales. 

@Florida_rosbif, you have a plan to go forward without her. If that's what it takes to make you whole then move forward. Don't let resentment define you going forward. 

Best


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## Lostinthought61

has she ever felt remorse for her actions ?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

jld said:


> Hi, FR. Thanks for the update. I have wondered how you were doing.
> 
> A friend mentioned this book recently. You may find it helpful:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Marriage-Makeover-Finding-Happiness-Imperfect/dp/0312330936
> 
> Are you still in MC?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks jld - just bought the book (used of course, I love the internet....:laugh


----------



## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> Thanks jld - just bought the book (used of course, I love the internet....:laugh


Lol, I was just thinking about buying it used, too, since my local library does not have it. Only 4 bucks on Amazon . . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Xenote said:


> has she ever felt remorse for her actions ?



Hi Xenote, my wife has always find it very hard to express remorse. When I read about WS who apologise daily for their transgressions and reassure their partners I laugh, clearly not in the same world as me! 

I have always assumed that my wife was very in touch with herself and could talk about things. This whole business has actually revealed that I am the good communicator and she is a closed book. If I start the ball rolling we can have useful conversations about where we are, but since I basically took a "**** you" attitude there is no communication until she reaches a cracking point.

The problem with it all is that unless you can get over the other's affair and forgive them all the talk is kind of pointless as it can't be fixed anyway. That s kind of where I am.....


----------



## Lostinthought61

Florida_rosbif said:


> Hi Xenote, my wife has always find it very hard to express remorse. When I read about WS who apologise daily for their transgressions and reassure their partners I laugh, clearly not in the same world as me!
> 
> I have always assumed that my wife was very in touch with herself and could talk about things. This whole business has actually revealed that I am the good communicator and she is a closed book. If I start the ball rolling we can have useful conversations about where we are, but since I basically took a "**** you" attitude there is no communication until she reaches a cracking point.
> 
> The problem with it all is that unless you can get over the other's affair and forgive them all the talk is kind of pointless as it can't be fixed anyway. That s kind of where I am.....


if that is the case, and she feels little or no morse, then i would make her cry in other ways...ask for alimony. 

was the OM married and if yes did you expose it to his wife?


----------



## Florida_rosbif

anchorwatch said:


> His resentment will not allow it, @farsidejunky. Most don't recover. It's too much of a hurdle, no matter what she does. Even if he could get over the resentment of the Miami life change, the betrayal in return has tipped his scales.
> 
> @Florida_rosbif, you have a plan to go forward without her. If that's what it takes to make you whole then move forward. Don't let resentment define you going forward.
> 
> Best


Thank you anchorwatch, your post is both perceptive and profound. I AM effectively letting resentment define me and it puts me in the position of being a victim. In some ways that's comforting because you put all the blame on the other party, but it's clearly not a long term solution. 

My problem is plan to go forward bit - if all this had happened back in France, with friends and family nearby, living in a place that I liked, with the mega-bucks income rolling in I think it would have been relatively easy to separate and move on. But in the context of living somewhere that I hate but can't leave because of my children, with the professional emasculation of no work, having given up all my hobbies due to the heat (fishing) and the lack of a workshop (sports cars), my ability to see a way out of the trap she sprung on me (that's the victim talking :grin2 is completely diminished.

I think that the answer is to just suck it up, accept the trap and get some **** paid job here so that I can move on. I think it'll make me feel even more resentment that she has put me in this position, but it might be the only solution until the kids have flown the nest and there is no reason to be here anymore.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Xenote said:


> if that is the case, and she feels little or no morse, then i would make her cry in other ways...ask for alimony.
> 
> was the OM married and if yes did you expose it to his wife?


Yes, communicated at length with the OM's wife, outed my wife's actions to everyone we know. I know how good the French are at revising history, so I made sure that she cannot in future walk around telling our friends that it was all my fault! :smile2: Petty I know, but ****ing satisfying!


----------



## Florida_rosbif

Florida_rosbif said:


> Yes, communicated at length with the OM's wife, outed my wife's actions to everyone we know. I know how good the French are at revising history, so I made sure that she cannot in future walk around telling our friends that it was all my fault! :smile2: Petty I know, but ****ing satisfying!


This yielded additional benefits - some if her friends that I didn't particularly like have stopped coming to visit us in Miami, who wants to go and stay with a couple having marital problems? :grin2: This upsets her but suits me just fine......


----------



## Nucking Futs

Xenote said:


> if that is the case, and she feels little or no morse, then i would make her cry in other ways...ask for alimony.
> 
> was the OM married and if yes did you expose it to his wife?


Florida still has permanent alimony for long term marriages, and yours qualifies.


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## Thor

Florida_rosbif said:


> I think that the answer is to just suck it up, accept the trap and get some **** paid job here so that I can move on. I think it'll make me feel even more resentment that she has put me in this position, but it might be the only solution until the kids have flown the nest and there is no reason to be here anymore.


Let me tell you that now is the time to get out. Now when you have nothing to lose. It is a false image in our minds when we say "If I was in that better situation it would be so much easier to leave". No, it wouldn't! You'd be looking at paying alimony and child support. You'd be too busy to spend time with your kids.

Yes, more money does equate to more comforts. But then you'd be moaning about how much you'd lose in the marriage!

You're in the perfect situation to divorce right now. If not perfect, at least as good as any situation.

In 2 years you'll have yet another excuse not to leave. Probably it would be too disruptive to your child just entering University. Or maybe financial because then the costs of university for both your kids would be too high to support a divorce as well. Or maybe you'll just be too comfortable with the crap sandwich and would be put off with the fear of divorce. Or you'll have some health concerns, or an elderly family member will be quite ill requiring your attention. Something. There's always something to justify not moving forward with divorce.

Now is as good a time as any.

And I bet your wife will file divorce as soon as it fits her schedule. Chances are it will be bad timing for you when she does it.


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## anchorwatch

I'm encouraged to know you understand the poison of resentment. You will find a way around it. 

As for your W, you know she is not a whole individual. She depends upon you, others or outside stimulus to define herself and her happiness instead of finding it in herself. Then she sits in her own victim chair. This is inherent in her personality. She is broken and won't heal until she takes that responsibility herself. You're the best judge as to whether she ever will. IMHO

Best


----------



## farsidejunky

I totally get this, brother. I understand how he arrived here. The affair is completely on her; nobody else. It totally sucks for him.

Where I struggle is that he has chosen to continue in the marriage to maintain time with his children, yet I get the feeling he is also blaming her for his current situation. While I agree she is the catalyst to it happening, his unwillingness to remove himself from the victim chair is was is allowing the situation to continue, whether it be through divorce or reconciliation. 

I think FR understands he is doing it. I also think it is a downward spiral in which his feelings of resentment are being further polluted with a healthy dose of self loathing.

It is all unhealthy.

ETA: I posted this before I read post #355. FR clearly understands where he is, and why is is there.

FR: This makes is even more disappointing. 



anchorwatch said:


> His resentment will not allow it, @farsidejunky. Most don't recover. It's too much of a hurdle, no matter what she does. Even if he could get over the resentment of the Miami life change, the betrayal in return has tipped his scales.
> 
> @Florida_rosbif, you have a plan to go forward without her. If that's what it takes to make you whole then move forward. Don't let resentment define you going forward.
> 
> Best


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I totally get this, brother. I understand how he arrived here. The affair is completely on her; nobody else. It totally sucks for him.
> 
> Where I struggle is that he has chosen to continue in the marriage to maintain time with his children, yet I get the feeling he is also blaming her for his current situation. While I agree she is the catalyst to it happening, his unwillingness to remove himself from the victim chair is was is allowing the situation to continue, whether it be through divorce or reconciliation.
> 
> I think FR understands he is doing it. I also think it is a downward spiral in which his feelings of resentment are being further polluted with a healthy dose of *self loathing.*
> 
> It is all unhealthy.
> 
> ETA: I posted this before I read post #355. FR clearly understands where he is, and why is is there.
> 
> FR: This makes is even more disappointing.


Where do you see self-loathing, far?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Intuition, based on projection, more than anything. 

I think that I would begin to hate myself if I knew I could solve my problem, but was unwilling to do so due to all of the choices being...painful. One can only be indecisive for so long before it pervades everything in ones life.

I also think some small part of him is getting a measure of retribution by continuing to remain married to her. He can still punish her if he is under the same roof (no visitors, no interaction, etc.).

If I remember correctly, FR struggled with being decisive upon discovery as well. The pattern fits.


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## jld

Florida_rosbif said:


> Yes, communicated at length with the OM's wife, outed my wife's actions to everyone we know. I know how good the French are at revising history, so I made sure that she cannot in future walk around telling our friends that it was all my fault! :smile2: Petty I know, but ****ing satisfying!





Florida_rosbif said:


> This yielded additional benefits - some if her friends that I didn't particularly like have stopped coming to visit us in Miami, who wants to go and stay with a couple having marital problems? :grin2: This upsets her but suits me just fine......


The French are pretty keen on personal privacy. I am not sure you did as much damage to her as to yourself in their eyes, FR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Florida_rosbif

Farside - mea culpa. I recognise that not making a decision in the face of a set of options that all look ****, so staying in a status quo that is also ****, is far from ideal! To a certain extent I thus deserve.....****!


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## manfromlamancha

jld said:


> The French are pretty keen on personal privacy. I am not sure you did as much damage to her as to yourself in their eyes, FR.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the French are full of sh!t when it comes to the sanctity of marriage. They have forgotten what it is about and are essentially a self-entitled people - i.e. my happiness is of utmost importance therefore fvcking around with others is not a big deal if I am not happy!

And they refer to this as being an advanced, forward thinking cultured people.


----------



## Florida_rosbif

jld said:


> The French are pretty keen on personal privacy. I am not sure you did as much damage to her as to yourself in their eyes, FR.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To be honest jld I couldn't care less. _My_ French friends remain my friends, if _her _ French friends think less of me for outing her so be it, no real loss as far as I'm concerned.


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## Florida_rosbif

manfromlamancha said:


> I think the French are full of sh!t when it comes to the sanctity of marriage. They have forgotten what it is about and are essentially a self-entitled people - i.e. my happiness is of utmost importance therefore fvcking around with others is not a big deal if I am not happy!
> 
> And they refer to this as being an advanced, forward thinking cultured people.


mflm - effectively many if the French friends here have sort of expressed that, it's just not that big a deal to them. I guess they don't understand my reactions as a result, and they really can't see why this might be enough to sink the marriage. C'est la vie!


----------



## farsidejunky

Florida_rosbif said:


> Farside - mea culpa. I recognise that not making a decision in the face of a set of options that all look ****, so staying in a status quo that is also ****, is far from ideal! To a certain extent I thus deserve.....****!


Brother, I am not saying this to try to make you feel worse about yourself, or to be self-righteous. 

I just wanted to make sure that you recognize the dynamic, and the impact it will have on your own self-worth.


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## Duguesclin

Florida_rosbif said:


> mflm - effectively many if the *French friends here have sort of expressed that, it's just not that big a deal* to them. I guess they don't understand my reactions as a result, and *they really can't see why this might be enough to sink the marriage*. C'est la vie!


In the grand scheme of things, an affair is not the end of the world. I would take my wife having an affair any day if it meant that my son would never have had cancer.

I understand that an affair hurts a lot. What you wife did is not right. But you have some control over the situation. You have the power to save your marriage. Pretending it is all on her does not make any sense. You have some responsibility and you know it.

It is far more important to save the family. This is why an affair is not the end of the world. Your relationship with your kids is far more important than your own comfort. 

A divorce destroys everyone. I keep hearing on TAM that kids are resilient. Maybe. But they are far better off with a mom and a dad together in the same house. If you separate, your kids will suffer and you will have as much, if not more, responsibility than your wife. You have the power to change the course of your marriage. Your wife does not seem to be able to.

Anyway, that is this Frenchman's opinion.


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## manfromlamancha

Florida_rosbif said:


> mflm - effectively many if the French friends here have sort of expressed that, it's just not that big a deal to them. I guess they don't understand my reactions as a result, and they really can't see why this might be enough to sink the marriage. C'est la vie!


C'est la merde more like. I say call them out on this every single time. I have experienced this first hand and while I admire the French for many things, their approach to relationships, marriages etc stumps me every time. I first tried to understand it and see if they really were more "evolved" than most - but alas no - what I found was a strong dose of self entitlement coated in "seeking true happiness" [email protected] I would not put up with it if I were you.

I know you need to see your kids and this is a sh!t sandwich you've been served. What would be equally important to me is to ensure that your kids are brought up with the right set of morals/ethics and an understanding of right and wrong. They need to see that their mother's (maybe French) way is definitely not the right way and that their Dad's refusal to accept it and willing to undergo pain is the right way. So you need to balance that with seeing your kids. Sometimes its better for kids to be in a divorced set of households than a single, deceitful, resentful and non-loving household.

Difficult one, I know but you do need to consider this.


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## 3Xnocharm

People who have never dealt with infidelity have no clue what it's like. Zero. None. (Looking at two people in particular here) Kids don't deserve to live in an environment of betrayal and mistrust.


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## Florida_rosbif

Duguesclin said:


> If you separate, your kids will suffer and you will have as much, if not more, responsibility than your wife. You have the power to change the course of your marriage. Your wife does not seem to be able to.


Merci Dug, tu m'ecrase bien dans ma merde! :smile2:

Effectively, for the kids it's a **** sandwich that they didn't order, which is why I'm still here. Had they (and the dog!) not existed, DDay would have been the end and I would have headed for the airport. 

You confront me with what is probably the reality, at this late stage only I have the power to change the course of this marriage. She fundamentally ****ed it (and me) up, and I would have to woo her back and try to make it work. One of the things that has become clear to me living in this damned place is how diametrically opposed my wife and I are, beach/mountain, heat/cool, city/nature, etc. All this makes me doubt the long term potential of our relationship, even if I were to succeed in the short term reconciliation. I just don't know.

My stubborn compromise was to accept to stay here "for the kids" until we become empty nesters. Tragically sad, effectively putting a line through real happiness until later, when we will both be older and less well armed to find other partners. I could do that, but I know my wife can't. She is very YOLO and wants to live it immediately, and given that part off this **** came out of a mid-life crisis (my opinion, she doesn't agree!), she will want to move on and maybe find a new man before her body heads south.

Anyway, thanks for your input, food for thought.

A+


----------



## Florida_rosbif

mflm - I might have said all this back in 2015, I can't recall, but my wife was brought up by very proper, middle class Parisians who were shagging everything that moved. In laws, neighbours, family doctor, it was just another world. Ok, it did eventually end in divorce, as did their subsequent marriages due to continued infidelity. In that context, I suppose I should not be surprised that my wife thinks that this isn't such a big deal. I am personally more aligned with your POV.....


----------



## Florida_rosbif

3Xnocharm said:


> People who have never dealt with infidelity have no clue what it's like. Zero. None. (Looking at two people in particular here) Kids don't deserve to live in an environment of betrayal and mistrust.


Don't know which 2 people you are referring to 3Xnocharm, innocently I assumed every poster on TAM was screwed up by infidelity in one way or another. But I agree with the sentiment - when I said to my WS that she had **** on our marriage and hence also on the kids she was shocked and denied having done any harm to the kids. The consequences can't be seen short term, but however this ends up I have no doubt that the kids have been affected. The eldest knows what went on and is cynical before his time, the younger two have the fun of discovery to come.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Florida_rosbif said:


> Don't know which 2 people you are referring to 3Xnocharm, innocently I assumed every poster on TAM was screwed up by infidelity in one way or another. But I agree with the sentiment - when I said to my WS that she had **** on our marriage and hence also on the kids she was shocked and denied having done any harm to the kids. The consequences can't be seen short term, but however this ends up I have no doubt that the kids have been affected. The eldest knows what went on and is cynical before his time, the younger two have the fun of discovery to come.


I believe the truly shocked part and as a result she is already teaching them that it is OK to fvck around. I forget how old they are but they will find out about this and remember that it didn't seem to be a big deal for Mama or Papa so it must be an OK thing to do. You need to fix this.

And I don't agree with Dug - kids in a resentful home - which this would be - will grow up damaged. More damaged than in a divorced home where maybe they get to see their Dad in a real happy relationship and admire how he kicked Mum out after trying to rescue the marriage.

How is the oil industry going ? I would have thought Texas, Venezuela etc (thataways) would be OK for you.


----------



## Duguesclin

manfromlamancha said:


> I believe the truly shocked part and as a result she is already teaching them that it is OK to fvck around. I forget how old they are but they will find out about this and remember that it didn't seem to be a big deal for Mama or Papa so it must be an OK thing to do. You need to fix this.
> 
> And I don't agree with Dug - kids in a resentful home - which this would be - will grow up damaged. More damaged than in a divorced home where maybe they get to see their Dad in a real happy relationship and admire how he kicked Mum out after trying to rescue the marriage.
> 
> How is the oil industry going ? I would have thought Texas, Venezuela etc (thataways) would be OK for you.


Why do kids have to be in a resentful home?

Their home can be one of love and harmony and OP has the power to make it happen.

An affair does not need to mean a divorce. An affair is a big warning shot. It needs to be addressed, ultimately by the 2 partners. But the first move should be made by the healthier person. In many cases it is the betrayed spouse.

In OP's case there is great potential because his wife, as far as we know, is already out of the affair. If OP wants to be strong and mature, he can make a difference.

I am sure his kids are worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

Have you asked her recently if her little fun was worth it?

If the life that her parents lived is something to be proud of and emulated? 

It might be a good time to sit down and start having the tough talks with her. She may just now be starting to understand how messed up her thought process truly is. And how totally ill-equipped she is at this point to do anything about it. 

Has she considered IC?

I do agree with Dug, by all appearances you are the only one capable of taking the lead and moving forward. I would encourage you to work to let the resentment go. Find your path to forgiveness and see where it takes you. The sooner you get there the better off you will be.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Duguesclin said:


> Why do kids have to be in a resentful home?
> 
> Their home can be one of love and harmony and OP has the power to make it happen.
> 
> An affair does not need to mean a divorce. An affair is a big warning shot. It needs to be addressed, ultimately by the 2 partners. But the first move should be made by the healthier person. In many cases it is the betrayed spouse.
> 
> In OP's case there is great potential because his wife, as far as we know, is already out of the affair. If OP wants to be strong and mature, he can make a difference.
> 
> I am sure his kids are worth it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HE isn't the cheater...it isn't up to him. He could be perfect in every way and if the cheating wife isn't in it to make it work, it wont. Period. SHE is the one who needs to do the heavy lifting to save what she damaged. NOT HIM. 

Sorry the world isn't all unicorns and rainbows....


----------



## manfromlamancha

Duguesclin said:


> Why do kids have to be in a resentful home?
> 
> Their home can be one of love and harmony and OP has the power to make it happen.
> 
> An affair does not need to mean a divorce. An affair is a big warning shot. It needs to be addressed, ultimately by the 2 partners. But the first move should be made by the healthier person. In many cases it is the betrayed spouse.
> 
> In OP's case there is great potential because his wife, as far as we know, is already out of the affair. If OP wants to be strong and mature, he can make a difference.
> 
> I am sure his kids are worth it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


THis would be possible if his wife acknowledged the wrong she has done, to what extent she has hurt him and the family, is truly empathetic and remorseful and doesn't treat it like no big deal. But none of this is true because she truly doesn't believe it was a big deal and that he should just get over it. Clearly no remorse or empathy, leave alone the will to make it better. And to make matters worse, I believe that she could truly and easily dot it again and think nothing of it. 

As for him being the strong man and spouse and rising above it all for his kids, and "unhardening" her heart, this is not possible because she doesn't have a hardened heart (just a self entitled one) and really doesn't care if he stays or goes and staying will increase his resentment and efforts to make her accept the enormity of what she has done and this in turn will increase her resentment of him. So until this is properly addressed, there will always be resentment.


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## manfromlamancha

Tron said:


> Have you asked her recently if her little fun was worth it?
> 
> If the life that her parents lived is something to be proud of and emulated?
> 
> It might be a good time to sit down and start having the tough talks with her. She may just now be starting to understand how messed up her thought process truly is. And how totally ill-equipped she is at this point to do anything about it.
> 
> Has she considered IC?
> 
> I do agree with Dug, by all appearances you are the only one capable of taking the lead and moving forward. I would encourage you to work to let the resentment go. Find your path to forgiveness and see where it takes you. The sooner you get there the better off you will be.


She is adamant that what she has done really is no big deal and is not going through a phase or anything like that - she really believes that. So why would she go to IC etc. Even if Rosbif lets go of his resentment (a super human task for anyone), she will do it again because her core belief system says this is not a big deal! So how can he possibly fix this.


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## Thor

Florida_rosbif said:


> In that context, I suppose I should not be surprised that my wife thinks that this isn't such a big deal.


I think that is a very valid analysis. We judge ourselves based on how we observe the rest of the world. The things my wife did were far less than what her mother did, or what her paternal grandfather did. By comparison, our wives' actions are not so bad.

It doesn't excuse what your wife did, nor does it somehow modify how hurt you should feel by it.

Saving your family is not something you can do. You can refuse to initiate divorce, but it doesn't save the family. It just doesn't break it. Your wife broke the family. She is the only one who can initiate saving it, and she has to do the large bulk of the work. She has to actively work to rebuild the marriage in order to save the family. In the end, she can (and probably will) file for divorce anyway. You're just prolonging the misery.


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## JohnA

You need to start working anything and keep you skill set sharping. 

Your wife thought she could carry the burden of being the breadwinner, she cannot. Men are raised to expect it, does not change the burden but they believe there is no other way. If you love your job, it pays well, and you are not burdened knowing one false step snd your family is out the street life is sweet. Are you dipping into savings to pay currennt bills?


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## JohnA

Wait until she has to pay child support and spousal support!


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## harrybrown

I do hope someday, you are free of pain.

And able to move on. You might want to try to contact affair recovery, you can find them online.

Maybe they could get your WW to ever see some idea of how she would feel if the roles were reversed.

I do hope you give them a try, better than just waiting.


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