# Separated and headed toward divorce - Wife wants to divorce, but I don't



## DrDetroit

An uninspiring title that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of my current state. This is very difficult to write because there is so much to write about.

Current status: Wife and I have are doing a live-in separation. Me 43, she 42 with 2 boys ages 10 and 12.

History: Acquaintances in high school, connected during college, dating after college. Lived together for a year before she moved out to buy her own home. Remained friends, eventually dating again, and several years later, married. We moved away from family and friends in 2009 (me following work). About a year later, we're struggling. Found draft text to an ex-bf (with whom she had an abortion with in college) with her in just bra and panties bragging about her 35-year old body. Later accidentally found out that while back in our home state she went out to dinner with an ex-fiance. Weeks later, she's contacted an attorney and sold her wedding band. Few months later and she indicates that she's here to stay, committed to working on the marriage and will not divorce me.

Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.

Recent history - last 6 months: early part of 2019 characterized by me being isolated and withdrawn, frozen and unable to discuss problems I am having with her behavior or my personal issues (working with IC) or my feelings within the marriage. I initiate marriage counseling in March/April. No romantic intimacy since late 2018; sporadic "I love you's" and kissing/hugging through May.

Father's Day this year she informs me that she wants to separate following an instance the night before where, again, I don't handle my 10 year old's behavior well, including raising my voice and her stepping in but me not walking away (consistent theme the last 2 years). We agree to hold off telling our boys until after our summer trip to home state in July. Sleep in same bed, doing family activities, etc. No hugging, kissing. Doing MC with talk about possible reconciliation and the marriage counselor summarizing that my wife just doesn't have any emotional trust, that my wife can't be vulnerable with me and won't be without that trust. While on vacation back in our home state, she did indicate that she hoped that we could work this out and even thanked me for the kindness I was showing to her (her sisters are in rough relationships and she was contrasting me to their spouses).

Early August, discover huge volume of texting between wife and family friend's husband, ie., hours per day. We're still in counseling. 2x in one week, we have appointments and both time we talk about this "friendship". Day after second appointment, discover I love you text to him along with another text expressing that she cant wait to take showers with him after their runs. I immediately confront both of them, very tumultuous evening at home as I try to explain to kids what's happening. Understand now that what she explained in those 2 sessions was just a lie. Both claim to have just developed feelings for each other. HIs wife is battling alcoholism and between me and her, they started leaning on each other very heavily as they confided in each other about the state of their marriages. Odd thing is that the week before I found these two texts to him, she was actively assisting him with finding treatment centers for his wife and understanding what their insurance would cover. Concurrently, she is telling me through March, April into July and August that she's hoping they repair their marriage. In fact, a week before finding the texts, we were both visiting him the night before his wife left for a treatment center intake session and my wife would later remark two different times how excited and happy he was when explaining how he came home from work the night before and his wife had not been drinking (and he was).

She went no contact and notified several of her friends about an inappropriate relationship. I believe that her father and his wife knows and perhaps one of her sisters. Recently, there has been some low-level contact with him that I know of as their children and our visit each other's households on a daily basis. I think there's more, but it's through email and hidden. I did see an email exchange where she indicated that she would like updates on their family and he replied wanting the same and after having asked my wife when it was safe to email my wife explained any time and that she would handle whatever problem I had with it with me.

She has been writing a lot, including a letter to me indicating that she doesn't want to married to me and that I should continue changing to ensure that I am a good father to our children. I have seen some of her writing wherein she expresses a lot of hurt and frustration that she has to give up some a great friendship with him and for wrecking the relationship between our families (families were very close with similar-aged children, family outings, and camping trips together). She's angry that while she's losing some of her friends due to this relationship, he doesn't seem to be.

Currently, my wife has zero interest in working on the marriage. Period. She has indicated that she would like to work a divorce through a mediator and has explained that her resentment toward me grows as I resist the divorce and she feels that I will force a very difficult and adversarial divorce process. She has explained that she has suffered too long in this marriage and wants the chance to be happy by herself or with someone else. She describes our relationship, in part, as abusive, but also that she has felt unsafe and uncared for.

She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns. She firmly believes that she cannot trust that the changes I am making can be or will be lasting and will not put herself into a vulnerable position to be hurt again.

This past weekend, we talked again about mediation. She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons. She and I both have divorced parents, though very different experiences. Whereas my father became highly introverted and didn't even date much, my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years. My wife, otoh, her mother and father remained very cordial seeing one another at family events and interacting positively. They both went on to marry others and have successful relationships. I simply explained that I want a different marriage with her that is loving, joyful, intimate, and caring and that I think what's best for our children is having two loving parents in a loving, intimate marriage. She can't get herself on board with that.

My wife's emotional affair is a result of me leaving a huge, gaping emotional hole open and she intentionally allowed another man to fill it. She also believes that I could never forgive her for that which is another reason not to try to repair the marriage. Further, she has expressed, in moments of anger or emotional stress, that my resistance to divorce just means that I am holding her hostage.

I truly do love my wife. I am working on myself and making permanent changes (though, I could always have a relapse, I am far more conscious and present with my emotions). This live-in separation is a killer.

There are so many other details and bits and pieces, but I think I have exhausted myself typing this much out at this moment.

I would love some insight, advice, tough love, etc. I have broken my marriage, but while my wife is ready to divorce, I am not.


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## Marc878

It wasn't an emotional affair it was physical you are just in denial. This is the 3rd time she's cheated that you know of. Which means she's a serial cheater. They never stop.

You can't save this. Get your ducks lined up.


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## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> It wasn't an emotional affair it was physical you are just in denial. This is the 3rd time she's cheated that you know of. Which means she's a serial cheater. They never stop.
> 
> You can't save this. Get your ducks lined up.


Fair comment.


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## Marc878

Not trying to be an ass but I've seen these things drag out for years. Life is very short don't waste it on a fruitless venture.

Limbo is a self imposed state. 

Many make excuses instead of looking at a subjective view of the facts to make a decision.


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## Marc878

I also see a lot of betrayed spouses blaming themselves for the affair. Its BS. An affair is a conscious and willing decision your wife made.

You probably think if you caused it you can fix it. Nope. She'd have to do that or shed just cheat again.

You've been thru this before and if you stay in this you'll go through it again and again. You can't fix her only she can do that. I doubt she would or could.


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## manwithnoname

Giver her the divorce.

Go to counselling to help you going forward.


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## arbitrator

*You really need to make two appointments: (1) with a good personal counselor or pastor, and (2) with a good family attorney to help with the protection of both your legal and property rights!*


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## MEM2020

Very honest overview. I’m sure it was difficult to write this.

You have to let her go. 



DrDetroit said:


> An uninspiring title that doesn't begin to scratch the surface of my current state. This is very difficult to write because there is so much to write about.
> 
> Current status: Wife and I have are doing a live-in separation. Me 43, she 42 with 2 boys ages 10 and 12.
> 
> History: Acquaintances in high school, connected during college, dating after college. Lived together for a year before she moved out to buy her own home. Remained friends, eventually dating again, and several years later, married. We moved away from family and friends in 2009 (me following work). About a year later, we're struggling. Found draft text to an ex-bf (with whom she had an abortion with in college) with her in just bra and panties bragging about her 35-year old body. Later accidentally found out that while back in our home state she went out to dinner with an ex-fiance. Weeks later, she's contacted an attorney and sold her wedding band. Few months later and she indicates that she's here to stay, committed to working on the marriage and will not divorce me.
> 
> Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.
> 
> Recent history - last 6 months: early part of 2019 characterized by me being isolated and withdrawn, frozen and unable to discuss problems I am having with her behavior or my personal issues (working with IC) or my feelings within the marriage. I initiate marriage counseling in March/April. No romantic intimacy since late 2018; sporadic "I love you's" and kissing/hugging through May.
> 
> Father's Day this year she informs me that she wants to separate following an instance the night before where, again, I don't handle my 10 year old's behavior well, including raising my voice and her stepping in but me not walking away (consistent theme the last 2 years). We agree to hold off telling our boys until after our summer trip to home state in July. Sleep in same bed, doing family activities, etc. No hugging, kissing. Doing MC with talk about possible reconciliation and the marriage counselor summarizing that my wife just doesn't have any emotional trust, that my wife can't be vulnerable with me and won't be without that trust. While on vacation back in our home state, she did indicate that she hoped that we could work this out and even thanked me for the kindness I was showing to her (her sisters are in rough relationships and she was contrasting me to their spouses).
> 
> Early August, discover huge volume of texting between wife and family friend's husband, ie., hours per day. We're still in counseling. 2x in one week, we have appointments and both time we talk about this "friendship". Day after second appointment, discover I love you text to him along with another text expressing that she cant wait to take showers with him after their runs. I immediately confront both of them, very tumultuous evening at home as I try to explain to kids what's happening. Understand now that what she explained in those 2 sessions was just a lie. Both claim to have just developed feelings for each other. HIs wife is battling alcoholism and between me and her, they started leaning on each other very heavily as they confided in each other about the state of their marriages. Odd thing is that the week before I found these two texts to him, she was actively assisting him with finding treatment centers for his wife and understanding what their insurance would cover. Concurrently, she is telling me through March, April into July and August that she's hoping they repair their marriage. In fact, a week before finding the texts, we were both visiting him the night before his wife left for a treatment center intake session and my wife would later remark two different times how excited and happy he was when explaining how he came home from work the night before and his wife had not been drinking (and he was).
> 
> She went no contact and notified several of her friends about an inappropriate relationship. I believe that her father and his wife knows and perhaps one of her sisters. Recently, there has been some low-level contact with him that I know of as their children and our visit each other's households on a daily basis. I think there's more, but it's through email and hidden. I did see an email exchange where she indicated that she would like updates on their family and he replied wanting the same and after having asked my wife when it was safe to email my wife explained any time and that she would handle whatever problem I had with it with me.
> 
> She has been writing a lot, including a letter to me indicating that she doesn't want to married to me and that I should continue changing to ensure that I am a good father to our children. I have seen some of her writing wherein she expresses a lot of hurt and frustration that she has to give up some a great friendship with him and for wrecking the relationship between our families (families were very close with similar-aged children, family outings, and camping trips together). She's angry that while she's losing some of her friends due to this relationship, he doesn't seem to be.
> 
> Currently, my wife has zero interest in working on the marriage. Period. She has indicated that she would like to work a divorce through a mediator and has explained that her resentment toward me grows as I resist the divorce and she feels that I will force a very difficult and adversarial divorce process. She has explained that she has suffered too long in this marriage and wants the chance to be happy by herself or with someone else. She describes our relationship, in part, as abusive, but also that she has felt unsafe and uncared for.
> 
> She has said that she sees the changes I am making, but recognizes this as yet another one of my cycles wherein after she expresses frustration with the marriage or the want to separate I turn my act around until...and then revert to similar behavioral patterns. She firmly believes that she cannot trust that the changes I am making can be or will be lasting and will not put herself into a vulnerable position to be hurt again.
> 
> This past weekend, we talked again about mediation. She asked, for the first time, why I was resisting mediation and divorce. I shared several different reasons. She and I both have divorced parents, though very different experiences. Whereas my father became highly introverted and didn't even date much, my mom remarried a physically and abusive alcoholic who just wrecked my mom, bother, and I for 15 years. My wife, otoh, her mother and father remained very cordial seeing one another at family events and interacting positively. They both went on to marry others and have successful relationships. I simply explained that I want a different marriage with her that is loving, joyful, intimate, and caring and that I think what's best for our children is having two loving parents in a loving, intimate marriage. She can't get herself on board with that.
> 
> My wife's emotional affair is a result of me leaving a huge, gaping emotional hole open and she intentionally allowed another man to fill it. She also believes that I could never forgive her for that which is another reason not to try to repair the marriage. Further, she has expressed, in moments of anger or emotional stress, that my resistance to divorce just means that I am holding her hostage.
> 
> I truly do love my wife. I am working on myself and making permanent changes (though, I could always have a relapse, I am far more conscious and present with my emotions). This live-in separation is a killer.
> 
> There are so many other details and bits and pieces, but I think I have exhausted myself typing this much out at this moment.
> 
> I would love some insight, advice, tough love, etc. I have broken my marriage, but while my wife is ready to divorce, I am not.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Hello, Dr.Detroit - 

1) Affairs: You almost certainly discovered her three physical affairs with other men (1. sexting, 2. dinner 3. texting). How do you know that these affairs have ended? How many other men has she had sex with but you did not find out about? Have you checked for STDs and ran DNA tests on your kids? She is a chronic cheater, who will not change. 

2) Marriage: You said that your wife "has zero interest in working on the marriage. Period." She is done with the marriage. You need to realize that she will not change her adulterous ways for you or change anything about herself for you. As you cannot change her adulterous ways, you need to free her sleep with other men openly by divorcing her. Don't tolerate the intolerable. Please protect yourself with a talented lawyer. 

I wish you well.


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## Spicy

She is so completely DONE with you.
Let her go, and work on yourself to become a better father.


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## Spicy

Also, if you ever want to remarry, you need to fix your anger issues and keep your emotional issues maintained very well by a qualified Dr.

Reading your frank analysis of yourself, I would never date someone like you. Right now you are not good husband material.


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## She'sStillGotIt

OP, it's always been my firm belief - as well as my own personal experience - that when a woman is done, she's *DONE*.

Accept it and move on gracefully.


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## MattMatt

@DrDetroit I have moved our thread to Coping With Infidelity.

You are responsible for your rages, she is responsible for her being a cheater.


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## Tilted 1

DD, sorry your here, 

Your STBXWW, has Checked out! She is in what's know as an affair fog, and want more of the passion from another man
She like so many others has moved on. Time has come to show your son's how to be a man and not the take crap and stand on there own two feet. So if you can and desire to go for custody of your 2 boys. 

Why? Because if you don't at the current time in their lives they will be taught by a cheater of a man. Do you want that to happen? Do you want that piece of $hit raising them and show them what a man is by his standards, Hell he is a cheater also and one of the worse at that. Doing to his wife while she has cancer. Man l get it and it may sound like this is the word of the day, PTSD of Trauma in your past. The passive aggressive behavior you display and the cycle and intensity of the occurrences.

You do need to get your emotions under control. See someone who specializes in such trauma issues. It is not too late to get your son's to know that their true and only father is suffering. And as they grow up they themselves can and will be better men for it. The trauma once under control may never go away but, once triggered you learn how to cope with it and work through it without the intensity of a wounded and vulnerable man.

Think not of the shame and failure you, (in your mind) that defines you! That you lost marriage was to be a lifetime. You give others the power over you don't. 

She chooses to show herself to another man, you are not to blame. Because if you were then she would have left you then pursued her whorish behavior and you would have never been affected by her scandalous ways. Let that piece of crap go and let the door hit her in the ass on the way out. She is so superficial in her thoughts, again showing herself to another when she should be your PRIZE!! She doesn't love you any more and just wants her p***y scratched and thinks that's love, Ditch the *****, and learn how to be the best complete man that you can! Another will see you, and love you inspite of your troubled past. Because you will learn to cope with the disability of the mind. Somewhere it was done to you and do not you think you deserve it. You don't.


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## SunCMars

Spicy said:


> Also, if you ever want to remarry, you need to fix your anger issues and keep your emotional issues maintained very well by a qualified Dr.
> 
> Reading your frank analysis of yourself, I would never date someone like you. Right now you are not good husband material.


I agree with this ^^^, 100%. Both of you waited too long to separate.




LMc-


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## Tex X

Read No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Glover, and read Positive Discipline for Teenagers by Jane Nelson. Work on your anger issues and become a better dad. Proceed with the divorce. Sorry you find yourself in this situation. It sucks right now, but life can be so much better for you and your kids if you can take a hard look at yourself and commit to positive change - and actually follow through and do it.


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## Lila

I agree with @MEM2020, your OP is bluntly honest and open. Kudos to you for laying it all out there like you did. I think you have taken a good look at yourself and now recognize the harm your anger management issues have had on you and your family as a whole. You are working on managing those issues and that is admirable. Unfortunately, I think the realization and the subsequent work you are doing have come too late for you to save your marriage. 

She's asking you for an amicable split and I think you should take her offer. It is the second best thing you can do for you children. The last thing you want to do is to turn your divorce into a knock out, drag out fight.

The first best thing you can do for your children is to get your anger issues under control. They need a father who is able to control his emotions under pressure. They do not need a father who is going to take it out on them when he's angry or frustrated. 

Your wife has emotionally checked out of the relationship. Shifting the focus from your role in the destruction of the marriage to her exit affair is only going to hurt you IMO. Continue to work on your self improvement so that you can be the best father to your children going forward. As @Spicy mentioned, you will have to deal with this eventually if you hope to get into a health relationship in the future.


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## Chaparral

Take this with a grain of salt. 

Several years ago, and memory fades, but I really could not understand how angry a person could get at the drop of a hat. One experience included this person snapping but when I looked at her rather than an angry expression on her face there was a smile. 

I was shocked and immediately thought to my self,”she is enjoying this.”

I then googled anger addiction. It turns out that people do get addicted to anger. Anger releases a flood of adrenaline. The addiction is really an addiction to adrenaline.

In this case, almost her whole family is addicted to anger/adrenaline. I think it’s very common. 

Find out the best ways to break a habit/addiction and follow through. Your other issues may stem from your addiction.


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## SunCMars

Chaparral said:


> Take this with a grain of salt.
> 
> Several years ago, and memory fades, but I really could not understand how angry a person could get at the drop of a hat. One experience included this person snapping but when I looked at her rather than an angry expression on her face there was a smile.
> 
> I was shocked and immediately thought to my self,”she is enjoying this.”
> 
> I then googled anger addiction. It turns out that people do get addicted to anger. Anger releases a flood of adrenaline. The addiction is really an addiction to adrenaline.
> 
> In this case, almost her whole family is addicted to anger/adrenaline. I think it’s very common.
> 
> Find out the best ways to break a habit/addiction and follow through. Your other issues may stem from your addiction.


It may come from young children that are permitted to continuously blow their tops. And, receiving no consequences.

Also, children who are often screamed at, see that sort of behavior as 'normal'.

Anger displaying habits are hard to break. 

Life is hard, anger can be a response to that hard. Restraint is taught and must be reinforced.


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## VladDracul

She'sStillGotIt said:


> OP, it's always been my firm belief - as well as my own personal experience - that when a woman is done, she's *DONE*.


Two things. 1. That's exactly right. Her interest will never come back to acceptable level. 2. Although the argument is a cheating spouse is 100% responsible for cheating, the other spouse can be, and often is, up to 100% responsible for the demise of the relationship, thus making consideration of an affair an option. In this case, by his own admission, Dr. D has a lot of blood on his hands.


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## Openminded

She's made it very clear she's done. You need to stop hoping she'll change her mind.


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## EmeryB

I agree with several others here --- you have done a great job being honest about your own personal traits that you need to work on. And while it would be easy for people to say, "good lord, no wonder the woman had an affair," there really is no excuse for that. 

I do believe that unless a huge miracle happens, it is too late to really save your marriage. But please continue to save yourself. You are on the right track with counseling and admitting that you need to work on your anger issues. Your kids need you to be a good father to them. And someday you will find someone new and you won't want to repeat your mistakes in a new relationship. 

I wish you well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DrDetroit

Wow, all of these responses. Thank you all for taking the time to read, consider, and respond.

I just can't imagine divorcing my wife. This past weekend she asked why I was holding on to the marriage and her. I have a wide variety of reasons. She's given me the too late rationale, she's expressed that she can't and/or won't let herself be vulnerable to me hurting her again, yet she won't initiate the divorce, she is putting it all on me to divorce even though I don't want that.

I've read the Divorce Remedy book and had partly wrapped my head around the idea that maybe I could sufficiently change myself and behavior to bring my wife back to this marriage. I've dabbled at the divorce busting website reading the various stories and experiences and grew hopeful that this could be saved.

Your responses have doused that with plenty of cold water. I'm not angry about that, but it has shocked me and woken me up to the reality of the situation. 

As one poster put it, I have blood on my hands in harming this marriage. I created conditions so bad for my wife and family that my wife was open to and engaged in an emotional affair and has now decided that she cannot continue in this marriage.

I wish I better understood why I don't want to divorce. Seeing how you all have responded, it should be an easy choice to let her go, both because she's been unfaithful and also because she wants out. But I am having such a difficult time even considering it. Not because I don't want her to be happy, not because I don't think I can be happy. Maybe it is because my experience as a child with divorced parents is clouding my thinking. More importantly, I do love the woman I married and while I fully recognize that she is not just that woman any longer, I'm still hanging on.

I keep reading advice that suggests to do all you can to save a marriage without harming yourself. I want to be able to tell my boys that I tried. Maybe this doesn't matter, though.

I have seen that she has been googling how to deal with resentment in a marriage and forgiveness in a marriage. Perhaps I deluded myself that she was trying to figure out if she could overcome that resentment and possibly forgive. Maybe she's looking into that stuff merely to manage the resentment and possibly forgive so that we could remain merely functional coparents.

I'm trying to be clear-eyed here, but I keep telling myself that a marriage with this woman, a far different marriage than we have had, is possible and would impart to my boys the lessons of love, forgiveness, and commitment. Maybe I am in denial and resisting the obvious.

A couple of corrections:

No physical affair.
OMs wife does not have cancer, but is battling alcoholism and suffered a brain injury many years ago.
Previous "sexting" wasn't sexting at all. I caught a draft text with a pic attached. She showed me their texting history and while inappropriate, no sexting.


Additional notes:

I know I have been ****ty and destructive in this marriage. I can't understand the depth of her hurt, her pain, her loneliness, etc.

Is there really nothing to do here except to divorce and move on?


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## Tasorundo

When were they planning on taking showers together?


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## Tex X

If you really want to save your marriage (and at this point I don't know why you would), start the process of giving your wife what she wants. File for divorce and have her served. Start working on yourself and commit to making positive change. Do it for YOU and nobody else. Start really loving your kids. Own the fact that you're not perfect (none of us are), but that you want to become a better man. Don't hope your wife takes notice because in reality it's not her you're doing this for. If she sees change and starts to trust it then there is a chance, but that is a pretty low probability at this point. You can stop the divorce process at anytime until it's finalized, so if things start getting better you have that option.

But I have to ask - why do you want to save this marriage so badly? I get that you've had anger issues and caused problems in your marriage. She chose to go outside of your marriage and cheat. You didn't make her do that. Cheating is 100% on the cheater. Ok you say it was only EA but dude wake up to the fact that it was most likely PA. It doesn't matter either way - cheating is cheating and EA can be just as bad for a marriage if not worse than PA. And she told you flat out that she was done. Me personally - I'd take her at her word that she's done and just file for divorce already. Life is too short to live like that. Fix yourself and move on. That's my opinion.


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## DrDetroit

Tasorundo said:


> When were they planning on taking showers together?


I think she was thinking about a time when they'd both be divorced. He was rock bottom with his wife and her drinking and refusal to seek help or really do anything about it. They leaned on each other for months talking about their marriages. They were also running together one time per week which is the genesis of that text.

Maybe that's my deluded spin on it though.


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## Tasorundo

On this board, you will not find many people who will believe that two adults that are fantasizing about having sex with each other via text, that also have time alone together, aren't having it.

Whether they were or were not, she was day dreaming about ****ing another man.

You need to not want this marriage anymore, it is toxic, and it has been for a long time.


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## MEM2020

@Lila,
I totally agree with your post below. 

DrDetroit, 
Let me share my experiences in the realm of: the angry guy

It is extremely rare for me to make sweeping generalizations about women. I almost never do it. Here goes: Good quality female partners, the type of women that you would WANT to have around your children HATE angry guys. 

The ONLY scenario where anger is your friend is when you are in a situation where you have to defend yourself or your family against physical violence in the moment. That is the only case. In all others: Anger makes you stupid and ugly. 

Anger is a secondary emotion: It is caused by pain or fear. It is an evolutionary adaptation to a world where intense intra and inter species combat was the norm. It is absolutely ideal for physical combat as it suppresses fear and pain, and makes you temporarily stronger and faster.

In the modern world - where routine combat will near ensure you end up in prison and most goals can be achieved through basic conflict resolution - being angry actually makes everything in your life WORSE. 

Physiological Inputs to the equation:
In my experience, if you have a healthy lifestyle - sleep, diet, exercise and optionally faith - that helps a lot. When I'm - doing the lifestyle thing right - I honestly feel as if I'm walking around in a 1 inch thick emotional wet suit. All the small to medium stuff - doesn't bother me at all. I notice it - but it does NOT produce any type emotional response. 

Psychological Inputs to anger:
I used to get really tense and anxious when doing home improvement things that I had not done before. I am pretty certain I was very afraid of 'failing' and as a result looking like less of a man to M2 (my wife). Sadly, my tension and resulting anger were what caused M2 to have a lower opinion of me, NOT my sort of mediocre handy man skills. This situation was amplified by the fact that M2's father was an EXTRAORDINARY handy man. He was a fully competent: Carpenter, Electrician, Plumber, and fine finish guy (tile work, etc.). Great guy - I loved him. 

So - one day - I decided that the truth was my friend. That I would be FAR happier if I embraced the truth and just let the chips fall as they may. 

Shortly afterwards I'm home working on some project and M2 comes over and asks how its coming along. Now in the past - I would have gotten defensive because it felt like she was - poking at me for being slow. Often me being defensive led to a HUGE blowout. 

The thing is - even projects that I am competent at - I'm not that fast. That is simply reality. So when M2 - who generally does tasks faster than I do - and sometimes compares my - handy man quotient to her father's - asks me: How's it coming? 
What I hear is: WHY IS IT TAKING SO LONG? 

Up above - I said: The truth is my friend. Well it is. So this is how that conversation went:
M2: How's it going?
Me: Slow but steady.
M2: When do you think you will be done?
Me: I'm not sure (this is just the truth - and besides - I'm not patching the roof in advance of an approaching hurricane - so time - isn't really a critical factor - in the past - this type question used to cause me to lose my temper - EVERY SINGLE TIME IT HAPPENED)
M2: Do you think it might be better if you did XYZ? 
Me: Stepping back - and looking at what I am doing: I do - that is a good idea - thank you (recall that half of M2's DNA is from her father - whose handy man skills dwarf mine)
M2: Smiling - you don't seem tense
Me: Smiling - turns out you can compensate for a deficit of natural ability - with a surplus of patience and determination 
M2: Laughing now - And so you can

Now - there is an obvious type truth in these situations - that people often can't bear to face. But pretending something isn't, solely because you wish it weren't, is a poor coping strategy. So if she is having a bad day - she sometimes radiates irritation at me for the way a project is going. While rare, it happens. And when it does I say the underlying truth which is: I think we both wish that my hands - had half the magic in them that your fathers did. 

That usually produces an apology. It always - produces an end to the - negative vibe. 






Lila said:


> I agree with @MEM2020, your OP is bluntly honest and open. Kudos to you for laying it all out there like you did. I think you have taken a good look at yourself and now recognize the harm your anger management issues have had on you and your family as a whole. You are working on managing those issues and that is admirable. Unfortunately, I think the realization and the subsequent work you are doing have come too late for you to save your marriage.
> 
> She's asking you for an amicable split and I think you should take her offer. It is the second best thing you can do for you children. The last thing you want to do is to turn your divorce into a knock out, drag out fight.
> 
> The first best thing you can do for your children is to get your anger issues under control. They need a father who is able to control his emotions under pressure. They do not need a father who is going to take it out on them when he's angry or frustrated.
> 
> Your wife has emotionally checked out of the relationship. Shifting the focus from your role in the destruction of the marriage to her exit affair is only going to hurt you IMO. Continue to work on your self improvement so that you can be the best father to your children going forward. As @Spicy mentioned, you will have to deal with this eventually if you hope to get into a health relationship in the future.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> If you really want to save your marriage (and at this point I don't know why you would), start the process of giving your wife what she wants. File for divorce and have her served. Start working on yourself and commit to making positive change. Do it for YOU and nobody else. Start really loving your kids. Own the fact that you're not perfect (none of us are), but that you want to become a better man. Don't hope your wife takes notice because in reality it's not her you're doing this for. If she sees change and starts to trust it then there is a chance, but that is a pretty low probability at this point. You can stop the divorce process at anytime until it's finalized, so if things start getting better you have that option.
> 
> But I have to ask - why do you want to save this marriage so badly? I get that you've had anger issues and caused problems in your marriage. She chose to go outside of your marriage and cheat. You didn't make her do that. Cheating is 100% on the cheater. Ok you say it was only EA but dude wake up to the fact that it was most likely PA. It doesn't matter either way - cheating is cheating and EA can be just as bad for a marriage if not worse than PA. And she told you flat out that she was done. Me personally - I'd take her at her word that she's done and just file for divorce already. Life is too short to live like that. Fix yourself and move on. That's my opinion.


The let her go approach, yeah?

I don't know as much as I feel that I want this marriage to work. Yeah, there's fear behind that. Fear that I end up like my dad, introverted, angry, and no further relationships. Fear that my boys end up with a step father like my own. Fear of being alone and fear of being with just myself. Otoh, I know that I have incredibly strong emotional feelings for my wife. I know her and I know her strengths and qualities, despite these infidelities, though maybe that's me being in the fog, too. I also truly believe that I can be a better man, husband, and father and believe that being so in a marriage with my wife is good for me and my boys.

Do I sound nuts?

I have a couple of female friends who are encouraging me to stand up for what I want and this marriage. I know I can only control me and that I can't nice or argue or threaten my wife into changing her mind. I also think that I can show her that I can be and am a better person. Maybe that can turn the table here so to speak or maybe I'm just deluding myself.


----------



## StillSearching

DrDetroit said:


> The let her go approach, yeah?
> 
> I don't know as much as I feel that I want this marriage to work. Yeah, there's fear behind that. Fear that I end up like my dad, introverted, angry, and no further relationships. Fear that my boys end up with a step father like my own. Fear of being alone and fear of being with just myself. Otoh, I know that I have incredibly strong emotional feelings for my wife. I know her and I know her strengths and qualities, despite these infidelities, though maybe that's me being in the fog, too. I also truly believe that I can be a better man, husband, and father and believe that being so in a marriage with my wife is good for me and my boys.
> 
> *Do I sound nuts?*
> 
> I have a couple of female friends who are encouraging me to stand up for what I want and this marriage. I know I can only control me and that I can't nice or argue or threaten my wife into changing her mind. I also think that I can show her that I can be and am a better person. Maybe that can turn the table here so to speak or maybe I'm just deluding myself.


Actually you sound exactly like me 2 years ago. BTW...You don't have a marriage. 
I was married 25 years to a woman like your wife....came here in denial. My life now is BLISS.
You wife is a narcissist. She feeds on your emotion. I bet you'd say she has NO empathy?
Your anger will leave you as soon as she does.
File ASAP.
I mean that with everything bone in my body.
"Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping." - Jordan Peterson


----------



## Tilted 1

DD, your STBXWW was looking for that KISA and she believes she found one in the other man being Noble and such. ( In her mind) but if you look at the EA and realized that she gave her heart to another man and that other man is not you.The woman you married is not there it may look and smell like her but it is not her. That woman is gone and just why do you think she had that unsent text yet. It was just a matter if time when the sex happens if not already cheaters lie lie lie, and when we deny the reality of that we lost the battle already. File and do the 180, stand up like a strong man and maybe just maybe if you want a woman who didn't this time but may next time will cross without as much as a blink of an eye. If you play the choose the pick me game, you not only lose yourself respect but those if your son's.


----------



## DoesItGetBetter?

DrDetroit – 

Here are the facts:

1) You discovered a draft text of your wife in underwear to her ex-boyfriend. 

2) You discovered your wife went out to dinner with an ex-fiancé. 

3) You discovered “huge volume of texting between wife and family friend's husband, ie., hours per day,” and “I love you text to him along with another text expressing that she can’t wait to take showers with him after their runs.”

Your discoveries above show that your wife is untrustworthy. You do not know the level of your wife’s deception, the affairs that she has likely had, possibly still having. She is not admitting them to you right now. Question – do you have a job and work ~40 hours per week? What exactly is your wife doing during this time? What do your nights and weekends look like? Is she off with “friends” or other “errands” much? Have you been tested for STDs or DNA'd you kids yet? You need to know the level of deception and what you would be "forgiving" if you try to reconcile. 

Hang in there!


----------



## DrDetroit

I just scheduled a consult with a divorce attorney I was referred to through my employers EAP.

When some of you lay it out as you have this should be such an easy thing to do.

I don't want to lose my wife. I don't want to see my kids just part of the time. I don't want to lose my home.

This is crushing and I don't have a network of friends to lean on because I became co-dependent on my wife.


----------



## bandit.45

I wonder how much of your anger issues stem from your wife’s infidelities early on in the marriage? You may have suffered PTSD thst was never addressed. 

Check into that.


----------



## Tilted 1

EA is the following in a perfect world. 

On the greatest day for your future bride (her wedding) her heart is full for YOU!! And she has given it to you unconditionally and fully. Now, do you think for a moment on her greatest day would tell another man l can't wait to take a shower with you!! 

No, she wouldn't so for her to give to another a promise of giving herself body and sex until they both heap in a sweaty unity as one mass lying in the bed exhausted for the satisfaction of knowing this is exactly what l needed and the desire of love from my man.

∆∆∆∆ THIS IS WHAT YOUR UP AGAINST!

Does this ring the bell??

To be a smartass:

Hey McFly ((( knocking on his head))), Hello is anyone there??

Sorry DD, just want to give you a gut check. It truly sucks.....


----------



## DrDetroit

And then I get **** like this via text:

Can we discuss health insurance options soon? I don't think i can lasts in this environment, I have 10 sick days and 5 PTO days that i can use. My body is so completely beat up and sistrict is not going to do anything about the situation. I know you have benefits and can cover the boys. If you do not want to cover me due to our current situation I understand.

She is a teacher's aide in an emotional growth classroom for k-3 she'd students. Think regular classroom but the kids have emotional and behavioral problems that preclude being in a regular class. We're talking kids that hit, bite, kick, throw chairs, swear, etc. Her current classroom should have 4 adults but it's just her and the teacher who is a 1st year teacher so the start of the year has been crazy. Although she loves the work, she's been hit more in the 1st 2 weeks than the first half of last school year.

My gut instinct is to reply, of course we can discuss, I know this year has sucked and can see the stress you're carrying as a result. I actually types that out, but decided not to send it.


----------



## Tasorundo

Just tell her that since you are divorcing, you cannot legally put her on your insurance. That is the truth.

She wants her fantasy life with her boy friend, or her ex's, well, that is what it looks like in reality.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes - from a pragmatic standpoint, your post below is pure deluded spin. 

You’ve had a really long time to become an acceptable partner to her. She’s gone. Splitting hairs over how disloyal she was is utterly pointless. 

Your ONLY good move - is a continuation of your original post on this thread. That post showed:
- Strong self awareness 
- Solid situational awareness (how you impact your wife and kids)

If you try to use evidence of her affairs as leverage in a divorce you will likely end up alienating your kids. 




DrDetroit said:


> I think she was thinking about a time when they'd both be divorced. He was rock bottom with his wife and her drinking and refusal to seek help or really do anything about it. They leaned on each other for months talking about their marriages. They were also running together one time per week which is the genesis of that text.
> 
> Maybe that's my deluded spin on it though.


----------



## MEM2020

Detroit,

There is nothing wrong with her text. She’s asking you to provide HC insurance for your children. You are their father. This is a small part of being a good parent. 

Your answer ought to be: 
Of course I will cover the boys. I understand why your current work situation is not acceptable to you. I believe you ought to begin looking for another job now as it will be easier to get a new job, while still employed. 





DrDetroit said:


> And then I get **** like this via text:
> 
> Can we discuss health insurance options soon? I don't think i can lasts in this environment, I have 10 sick days and 5 PTO days that i can use. My body is so completely beat up and sistrict is not going to do anything about the situation. I know you have benefits and can cover the boys. If you do not want to cover me due to our current situation I understand.
> 
> She is a teacher's aide in an emotional growth classroom for k-3 she'd students. Think regular classroom but the kids have emotional and behavioral problems that preclude being in a regular class. We're talking kids that hit, bite, kick, throw chairs, swear, etc. Her current classroom should have 4 adults but it's just her and the teacher who is a 1st year teacher so the start of the year has been crazy. Although she loves the work, she's been hit more in the 1st 2 weeks than the first half of last school year.
> 
> My gut instinct is to reply, of course we can discuss, I know this year has sucked and can see the stress you're carrying as a result. I actually types that out, but decided not to send it.


----------



## Tasorundo

He wont be able to cover the boys unless she quits the job. There are only certain times you can change coverages unless there is a significant life changing event, such as a spouse leaving a job.

And really, for covering her, you can, but once you divorce, you cannot.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> The let her go approach, yeah?
> 
> I don't know as much as I feel that I want this marriage to work. Yeah, there's fear behind that. Fear that I end up like my dad, introverted, angry, and no further relationships. Fear that my boys end up with a step father like my own. Fear of being alone and fear of being with just myself. Otoh, I know that I have incredibly strong emotional feelings for my wife. I know her and I know her strengths and qualities, despite these infidelities, though maybe that's me being in the fog, too. I also truly believe that I can be a better man, husband, and father and believe that being so in a marriage with my wife is good for me and my boys.
> 
> Do I sound nuts?
> 
> I have a couple of female friends who are encouraging me to stand up for what I want and this marriage. I know I can only control me and that I can't nice or argue or threaten my wife into changing her mind. I also think that I can show her that I can be and am a better person. Maybe that can turn the table here so to speak or maybe I'm just deluding myself.


You used the word fear quite a bit in this response. You can't live your life in fear or make decisions out of fear. I mean I guess you can but what a miserable existence. And it's not the "let her go approach" - it ain't some kind of game. It's what she said she wanted. Give it to her and work on making yourself a better man. Work to get over your fears. People get divorced and remarry all the time. There are other women in the world - you realize that right? Do you think you're so unlovable that nobody else would want you? Even if that were true is it worth sticking in a failed marriage just because you think you can't do better? I'm sorry bud, but that is nonsense. Yes you sound nuts. Learn to love yourself and tackle your fears and you may realize that she is not what YOU want.


----------



## niceguy47460

If I was you I would just start cutting her out of your life .


----------



## colingrant

Aside from kids, EVERYTHING is replaceable.


----------



## bandit.45

Everyone is talking about her being checked out. 

When was she ever checked in? 

Doesn’t sound to me like she ever was.


----------



## DrDetroit

I haven't replied to her text, yet and she followed up with:

I will sign up to substitute while i try to find other employment with benefits.

I don't even know how to reply. Be sympathetic? Tell her I see the stress and want to help her?


----------



## DrDetroit

bandit.45 said:


> Everyone is talking about her being checked out.
> 
> When was she ever checked in?
> 
> Doesn’t sound to me like she ever was.


Oh, she was checked in. She encouraged me to seek help for my issues. She hung in there with me while I had my anger and while I withdrew and left her lonely.


----------



## DrDetroit

Oh boy, having not responded to her, yet, she texts me the following:

Sorry if this conversation isn't one you can have woth me accorsing to your blog advice.

Her reference to blog advice is a reference to me telling her about some of the information I have found about not engaging in relationship talk to avoid signaling my pursuit.


----------



## bandit.45

Dont tell her that stuff. Or about TAM. This is 
Your safe place.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> Oh, she was checked in. She encouraged me to seek help for my issues. She hung in there with me while I had my anger and while I withdrew and left her lonely.


Hasn’t she been in contact with her ex since you guys married?


----------



## Affaircare

@DrDetroit, 

Regarding the text about healthcare--as I understand it, you have HC as a benefit and can cover yourself, your spouse and your children. I assume you at least cover yourself at this moment. And when/if the two of you divorce, you will be able to continue to cover the boys, so in your wife's mind, the only one who's HC benefits may or may not be affected by the divorce are HERS. So she is essentially asking you: "If I divorce you, would you be willing to continue paying for my HC? Or do I have to do that?"
@DrDetroit, I get it--you don't want a divorce. I also see that your wife has had a history of several infidelities. Whether you were a perfect partner or a lousy partner, her lack of fidelity to you and the marriage is 100% on HER. She could have chosen to speak to you about it until you heard, or drag your butt into counseling, or talk to your parents who would talk to you--but nope, she chose to be unfaithful AND she did it several times and you allowed it. 

So just to be clear, here is my definition of faithfulness: "Giving 100% of one's committed intimate affection, loyalty, and companionship to the one to whom it was promised." Note that one can still have affection for their family members or children, or be loyal to their country...but the intimate relationship is given to only ONE--the one to whom marriage vows were made. That means there is 0% available to any other person, male or female--after all the vows include something about forsaking all others, right? 

Soooo...if that's the definition of being faithful, then she has repeatedly been UNfaithful. And that is hers to choose if she wants. However, every choice has a cost and a benefit. The choice to marry you has the cost of fidelity (forsake all others) and the benefit of all you have to offer (including your income and HC). The choice to separate from you has the cost of losing your income and HC and the benefit of being free of the requirement of fidelity. But what she CAN'T HAVE is both!! She can't have the freedom from fidelity -AND- the benefit of your income and HC. 

Make sense?

She made a commitment to you and to the family she built with you. She didn't commit jack to the other man, so she doesn't legally or morally owe him anything. So it's pretty easy, really. She can be the kind of woman who honors her promises and acts in a way that values and builds her spouse and family--OR--she can be the kind of woman who backs out of her promises and acts in a way that harms those she said she loved.  YOU stand firm to protect yourself and your family and stand for the marriage--let her decide what she's gonna do and allow her to experience the consequences of her choices.


----------



## honcho

DrDetroit said:


> I haven't replied to her text, yet and she followed up with:
> 
> I will sign up to substitute while i try to find other employment with benefits.
> 
> I don't even know how to reply. Be sympathetic? Tell her I see the stress and want to help her?


This is why you need to speak to a lawyer asap. Nothing in the world you do can stop a divorce if she wants it and files. She's talking about divorce, quitting her job etc etc and these all have large financial impacts in divorce depending on what state you live in. Child support, possible alimony all that come into play. 

You could find yourself in a money pickle trying to be "supportive" of her. Divorce can be a very nasty game, I'm not saying she's going that route by any stretch but you do need to understand your responsibilities/rights before you start agreeing to things.


----------



## DrDetroit

So I replied to her...

Of course we can discuss. I'm so sorry about the state of the classroom. I can see the stress you're carrying as a result. 

And

I can see that the current classroom situation isn't acceptable to you. We'll work on the insurance coverage together. You ought to start looking for another job now because I think it'd be easier to get a position while still employed.


----------



## Casual Observer

DrDetroit said:


> She is a teacher's aide in an emotional growth classroom for k-3 she'd students. Think regular classroom but the kids have emotional and behavioral problems that preclude being in a regular class. We're talking kids that hit, bite, kick, throw chairs, swear, etc. Her current classroom should have 4 adults but it's just her and the teacher who is a 1st year teacher so the start of the year has been crazy. Although she loves the work, she's been hit more in the 1st 2 weeks than the first half of last school year.


There is no excuse for her infidelity, but her feelings towards your anger issues may be magnified when she works in an environment where she gets to be reminded, constantly, that her life is full of exactly that. Being around people with anger issues, and potentially violent. She probably imagines violent scenarios between the two of you that would never come to pass.

Doesn't change a thing, because that's water under the bridge at this point. She's already made her decisions. You need to optimize your life with that in mind. There is no going back.


----------



## syhoybenden

DrDetroit said:


> I just scheduled a consult with a divorce attorney I was referred to through my employers EAP.


Time to get smart, before you end up feeling really stupid.

Get the FREE consults with as many of the BEST attorneys in your area. Most jurisdictions have a rule preventing an attorney from being retained by your wife once you have already had a consult with them. In the event that things do go sideways, as I suspect they will, then you will have compromised her position.

Oh, and go read Sun Tzu's "Art of War".


----------



## Spicy

How often through the years would you say she would talk to you about improving your anger and depression issues? Would you promise change, and then after a little while go right back to the same crap?

If so, she doesn’t believe you will ever follow through, because you never have. Temporarily changing, essentially “until the dust clears” (aka she’s less upset) does nothing more than make things worse. It shows you can actually do it, but you won’t! This makes her feel unheard, unloved, unimportant and unappreciated.

Therefore, I stand behind my first comment on this thread, that she is done. You’ve cried wolf too many times.

I know because I lived it. You can only hear so many times that it won’t happen anymore, only to have it happen again, before you finally lose all hope. Then, there is no coming back.


----------



## sunsetmist

You have valid reasons for fearing divorce. Things do not have to be as bad as you experienced.

She has already bonded with the OM (and likely more) over the trials and tribulations they both experienced. She is gone, I am sorry. Tell her to file if you do not wish to do so.

First, see a lawyer to protect yourself. Do not give promises relating to HC costs hoping she will come back.

Continue to work on yourself. Anger hurts the container that holds it. Since you can control yourself, work to find out why you give yourself permission to eventually explode. This is self-destructive behavior. Work you do now will help with future relationships, will help your health (lower blood pressure and fewer heart and stroke problems), will improve your self-esteem, will help with parenting, and may demonstrate to your then exwife that you meant what you said.

Change is hard. Think what you have learned and become who God meant for you to be.


----------



## MJJEAN

DrDetroit said:


> I think she was thinking about a time when they'd both be divorced. He was rock bottom with his wife and her drinking and refusal to seek help or really do anything about it. They leaned on each other for months talking about their marriages. They were also running together one time per week which is the genesis of that text.
> 
> Maybe that's my deluded spin on it though.


Yes, it's delusional. They're adults. They were emotionally leaning on each other for months, were regularly spending time alone together, were "in love", and it's most likely they were physically involved. Is there a chance they didn't have sex? Yes. But it's a really, really, small chance. A teeny tiny chance if you factor in the shower sex conversation.



DrDetroit said:


> The let her go approach, yeah?
> 
> I don't know as much as I feel that I want this marriage to work. Yeah, there's fear behind that. Fear that I end up like my dad, introverted, angry, and no further relationships. Fear that my boys end up with a step father like my own. Fear of being alone and fear of being with just myself. Otoh, I know that I have incredibly strong emotional feelings for my wife. I know her and I know her strengths and qualities, despite these infidelities, though maybe that's me being in the fog, too. I also truly believe that I can be a better man, husband, and father and believe that being so in a marriage with my wife is good for me and my boys.
> 
> Do I sound nuts?
> 
> I have a couple of female friends who are encouraging me to stand up for what I want and this marriage. I know I can only control me and that I can't nice or argue or threaten my wife into changing her mind. I also think that I can show her that I can be and am a better person. Maybe that can turn the table here so to speak or maybe I'm just deluding myself.


She unlikely to marry someone like your step-dad when/if she remarries. She's leaving you because of the traits you share with your step-father. She's not going to want to get involved with or stay with another of that type.

If you don't want to end up a bitter and angry introvert, don't. Work on you. Put effort into friendships and familial relationships. Get involved with volunteer groups and/or take up a hobby.



DrDetroit said:


> I just scheduled a consult with a divorce attorney I was referred to through my employers EAP.
> 
> When some of you lay it out as you have this should be such an easy thing to do.
> 
> I don't want to lose my wife. I don't want to see my kids just part of the time. I don't want to lose my home.
> 
> This is crushing and I don't have a network of friends to lean on because I became co-dependent on my wife.


Divorce when you are still clinging to the marriage is not so easy, but it does get better.

You already lost your wife. The marriage is dead. Bury it before it stinks up the place any further.

Get your head straight so that you have your anger issues entirely under control and ask for 50/50 custody. During your parenting time, be a great dad. During your STBXW's parenting time work on you and take care of whatever needs to be done so that you can focus on your kids when you have them.


----------



## MEM2020

Perfect




DrDetroit said:


> So I replied to her...
> 
> Of course we can discuss. I'm so sorry about the state of the classroom. I can see the stress you're carrying as a result.
> 
> And
> 
> I can see that the current classroom situation isn't acceptable to you. We'll work on the insurance coverage together. You ought to start looking for another job now because I think it'd be easier to get a position while still employed.


----------



## MEM2020

What does it mean for you to: Stand up for what you want in this marriage? 

And very specifically, how do you plan to: stand up for what you want
While being respectful to your wife’s sincere desire to: leave the marriage 

I’ll share a couple observations based on - what you’ve posted to date. 
- You are a very smart person
- When calm, that intelligence makes it fairly easy for you to recognize and employ good quality advice
- When you are upset, like any human, you begin to tunnel in on whatever your short term goals are 
- You have some friends IRL who are inclined towards telling you what you want to hear 

The combination of those last two bullet points - can be dangerous. 






DrDetroit said:


> The let her go approach, yeah?
> 
> I don't know as much as I feel that I want this marriage to work. Yeah, there's fear behind that. Fear that I end up like my dad, introverted, angry, and no further relationships. Fear that my boys end up with a step father like my own. Fear of being alone and fear of being with just myself. Otoh, I know that I have incredibly strong emotional feelings for my wife. I know her and I know her strengths and qualities, despite these infidelities, though maybe that's me being in the fog, too. I also truly believe that I can be a better man, husband, and father and believe that being so in a marriage with my wife is good for me and my boys.
> 
> Do I sound nuts?
> 
> I have a couple of female friends who are encouraging me to stand up for what I want and this marriage. I know I can only control me and that I can't nice or argue or threaten my wife into changing her mind. I also think that I can show her that I can be and am a better person. Maybe that can turn the table here so to speak or maybe I'm just deluding myself.


----------



## MEM2020

Beautiful and true....




MJJEAN said:


> Yes, it's delusional. They're adults. They were emotionally leaning on each other for months, were regularly spending time alone together, were "in love", and it's most likely they were physically involved. Is there a chance they didn't have sex? Yes. But it's a really, really, small chance. A teeny tiny chance if you factor in the shower sex conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> She unlikely to marry someone like your step-dad when/if she remarries. She's leaving you because of the traits you share with your step-father. She's not going to want to get involved with or stay with another of that type.
> 
> If you don't want to end up a bitter and angry introvert, don't. Work on you. Put effort into friendships and familial relationships. Get involved with volunteer groups and/or take up a hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> Divorce when you are still clinging to the marriage is not so easy, but it does get better.
> 
> You already lost your wife. The marriage is dead. Bury it before it stinks up the place any further.
> 
> Get your head straight so that you have your anger issues entirely under control and ask for 50/50 custody. During your parenting time, be a great dad. During your STBXW's parenting time work on you and take care of whatever needs to be done so that you can focus on your kids when you have them.


----------



## bandit.45

Spicy said:


> How often through the years would you say she would talk to you about improving your anger and depression issues? Would you promise change, and then after a little while go right back to the same crap?
> 
> If so, she doesn’t believe you will ever follow through, because you never have. Temporarily changing, essentially “until the dust clears” (aka she’s less upset) does nothing more than make things worse. It shows you can actually do it, but you won’t! This makes her feel unheard, unloved, unimportant and unappreciated.
> 
> Therefore, I stand behind my first comment on this thread, that she is done. You’ve cried wolf too many times.
> 
> I know because I lived it. You can only hear so many times that it won’t happen anymore, only to have it happen again, before you finally lose all hope. Then, there is no coming back.


So her serial cheatings had nothing to do with exacerbating his anger issues? It's all on him?


----------



## TDSC60

The equation is simple.

Your wife has made her final decision. I agree that she is a serial cheater and will never be happy in a marriage for long.

You are fighting for nothing worth having. Your reconciliation is all in your mind. What if I do this or that - I can change her mind. Nope - not gonna happen. She is looking forward to physical activity with other men. That will not change no matter if married or not. And it will eventually happen married or not. Probably already has. Her looking forward to showering with OM sounded more like looking forward to doing something they routinely have done already.

Safe yourself some grief. Let her go.


----------



## DrDetroit

I owe a couple of you a reply and will do so tonight.

For the time being, had a quick phone consult with an attorney. Suggested things to do now is to empty joint savings and put into a sole account and stop direct depositing my check into our joint account. That will go over well, but, wtf...

It's my birthday today and she sent the following text:

I'm going to be at Costco for tires. I was going to pick up the chocolate cake you like but wanted to check in first since you have been making changes with your eatting and wanted to respect that.

Really? You want to divorce me and this is what you're thinking about...


----------



## farsidejunky

So you clearly see the carousel of crazy.

Why don't you step off? 

There is no making sense of the senseless. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## TXTrini

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I have no advice to give, I'm in the same boat. Just hang in there and take care of yourself.


----------



## MJJEAN

DrDetroit said:


> It's my birthday today and she sent the following text:
> 
> I'm going to be at Costco for tires. I was going to pick up the chocolate cake you like but wanted to check in first since you have been making changes with your eatting and wanted to respect that.
> 
> Really? You want to divorce me and this is what you're thinking about...


She's accustomed to doing certain things. Don't mistake habit or an attempt to be kind for something more. Also, it's not uncommon for the wayward spouse to feel a certain amount of guilt and try to make up for what they've done by being nice.

If you want my $0.02, let her be nice and don't read into it.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes to this. 




MJJEAN said:


> She's accustomed to doing certain things. Don't mistake habit or an attempt to be kind for something more. Also, it's not uncommon for the wayward spouse to feel a certain amount of guilt and try to make up for what they've done by being nice.
> 
> If you want my $0.02, let her be nice and don't read into it.


----------



## Wolfman1968

DrDetroit said:


> So I replied to her...
> 
> Of course we can discuss. I'm so sorry about the state of the classroom. I can see the stress you're carrying as a result.
> 
> And
> 
> I can see that the current classroom situation isn't acceptable to you. We'll work on the insurance coverage together. You ought to start looking for another job now because I think it'd be easier to get a position while still employed.


BE CAREFUL!

Talk to your attorney. If she downgrades her job to a part-time or lower-paying one due to "stress" and you "agree" that her downgrade is appropriate, you may find that you will be on the hook for big alimony due to the resultant income difference.

Don't agree to anything, even in principle, until you see your attorney.


----------



## Casual Observer

MJJEAN said:


> She's accustomed to doing certain things. Don't mistake habit or an attempt to be kind for something more. Also, it's not uncommon for the wayward spouse to feel a certain amount of guilt and try to make up for what they've done by being nice.
> 
> If you want my $0.02, let her be nice and don't read into it.


I totally agree, although my sarcastic side would be tempted to text back "So where was this considerate woman who remembers my birthday and brings me chocolate cake a few months ago, when my heart was being broken?" And just to make sure to confuse things a bit, I'd put a smiley after it. Just to see the response.


----------



## Spicy

bandit.45 said:


> So her serial cheatings had nothing to do with exacerbating his anger issues? It's all on him?


Oh no, I’m sure it did make his anger issues worse. 

Her cheating is 100% on her, of course. 

I am trying to get across that she is done with him. She doesn’t hold out anymore hope that they can make this work.

Once I was done, nothing my XH would do could change that.


----------



## MEM2020

The post below describes the path toward combat. It is the reason so many divorces are hostile, exhausting and far more expensive than need be.

The marriage is over. Accept that. And recognize that you need to focus your energy on improving YOU. 




Casual Observer said:


> I totally agree, although my sarcastic side would be tempted to text back "So where was this considerate woman who remembers my birthday and brings me chocolate cake a few months ago, when my heart was being broken?" And just to make sure to confuse things a bit, I'd put a smiley after it. Just to see the response.


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> @DrDetroit,
> 
> Regarding the text about healthcare--as I understand it, you have HC as a benefit and can cover yourself, your spouse and your children. I assume you at least cover yourself at this moment. And when/if the two of you divorce, you will be able to continue to cover the boys, so in your wife's mind, the only one who's HC benefits may or may not be affected by the divorce are HERS. So she is essentially asking you: "If I divorce you, would you be willing to continue paying for my HC? Or do I have to do that?"
> 
> @DrDetroit, I get it--you don't want a divorce. I also see that your wife has had a history of several infidelities. Whether you were a perfect partner or a lousy partner, her lack of fidelity to you and the marriage is 100% on HER. She could have chosen to speak to you about it until you heard, or drag your butt into counseling, or talk to your parents who would talk to you--but nope, she chose to be unfaithful AND she did it several times and you allowed it.
> 
> So just to be clear, here is my definition of faithfulness: "Giving 100% of one's committed intimate affection, loyalty, and companionship to the one to whom it was promised." Note that one can still have affection for their family members or children, or be loyal to their country...but the intimate relationship is given to only ONE--the one to whom marriage vows were made. That means there is 0% available to any other person, male or female--after all the vows include something about forsaking all others, right?
> 
> Soooo...if that's the definition of being faithful, then she has repeatedly been UNfaithful. And that is hers to choose if she wants. However, every choice has a cost and a benefit. The choice to marry you has the cost of fidelity (forsake all others) and the benefit of all you have to offer (including your income and HC). The choice to separate from you has the cost of losing your income and HC and the benefit of being free of the requirement of fidelity. But what she CAN'T HAVE is both!! She can't have the freedom from fidelity -AND- the benefit of your income and HC.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> She made a commitment to you and to the family she built with you. She didn't commit jack to the other man, so she doesn't legally or morally owe him anything. So it's pretty easy, really. She can be the kind of woman who honors her promises and acts in a way that values and builds her spouse and family--OR--she can be the kind of woman who backs out of her promises and acts in a way that harms those she said she loved. YOU stand firm to protect yourself and your family and stand for the marriage--let her decide what she's gonna do and allow her to experience the consequences of her choices.


I really appreciate this post, thank you!

I am wondering, though, what's the practical outcome of your last paragraph? Do I resist initiating the divorce and let her choose to do it? We are separated right now with her sleeping on the couch with her dresser in the office and her showering in and using the kids bathroom. I know that I wont live like this for long, it's just too painful. She has explained in a marriage counseling session a month ago that she was disappointed that I was interested in a long-term, multiple years, separation and also acknowledged that she didn't think it would be initiating a divorce. Though, she wants to pursue "mediation", whatever that means. Ugh, just so much nonsense.


----------



## DrDetroit

Spicy said:


> How often through the years would you say she would talk to you about improving your anger and depression issues? Would you promise change, and then after a little while go right back to the same crap?
> 
> If so, she doesn’t believe you will ever follow through, because you never have. Temporarily changing, essentially “until the dust clears” (aka she’s less upset) does nothing more than make things worse. It shows you can actually do it, but you won’t! This makes her feel unheard, unloved, unimportant and unappreciated.
> 
> Therefore, I stand behind my first comment on this thread, that she is done. You’ve cried wolf too many times.
> 
> I know because I lived it. You can only hear so many times that it won’t happen anymore, only to have it happen again, before you finally lose all hope. Then, there is no coming back.


Yeah, I would not only promise the change, but would live it, too, before reverting. She's recently talked about this cycling and it being the basis of not being to trust that my current changes are real and lasting and therefore unwilling to put herself out there again to be hurt by me.


----------



## DrDetroit

MEM2020 said:


> What does it mean for you to: Stand up for what you want in this marriage?
> 
> And very specifically, how do you plan to: stand up for what you want
> While being respectful to your wife’s sincere desire to: leave the marriage
> 
> I’ll share a couple observations based on - what you’ve posted to date.
> - You are a very smart person
> - When calm, that intelligence makes it fairly easy for you to recognize and employ good quality advice
> - When you are upset, like any human, you begin to tunnel in on whatever your short term goals are
> - You have some friends IRL who are inclined towards telling you what you want to hear
> 
> The combination of those last two bullet points - can be dangerous.


Standing up for my marriage means continuing to insist on no contact with the OM; continuing to change myself and improve myself (emotionally and physically); not initiating the divorce; continue to communicate that I want to work on the marriage. I can respect my wife's desire to leave the marriage even if that means I won't initiate the divorce. I will do so by not bringing up the issue of working on the marriage (but will, when she confronts me about wanting a divorce validate her feelings and reinforce my desire not to be divorced); and not pursuing her (seeking time alone with her, dates, I love you's, etc.).

I agree on the last two bullets.


----------



## DrDetroit

MEM2020 said:


> @Lila,
> I totally agree with your post below.
> 
> DrDetroit,
> Let me share my experiences in the realm of: the angry guy
> 
> It is extremely rare for me to make sweeping generalizations about women. I almost never do it. Here goes: Good quality female partners, the type of women that you would WANT to have around your children HATE angry guys.
> 
> The ONLY scenario where anger is your friend is when you are in a situation where you have to defend yourself or your family against physical violence in the moment. That is the only case. In all others: Anger makes you stupid and ugly.
> 
> Anger is a secondary emotion: It is caused by pain or fear. It is an evolutionary adaptation to a world where intense intra and inter species combat was the norm. It is absolutely ideal for physical combat as it suppresses fear and pain, and makes you temporarily stronger and faster.
> 
> In the modern world - where routine combat will near ensure you end up in prison and most goals can be achieved through basic conflict resolution - being angry actually makes everything in your life WORSE.
> 
> Physiological Inputs to the equation:
> In my experience, if you have a healthy lifestyle - sleep, diet, exercise and optionally faith - that helps a lot. When I'm - doing the lifestyle thing right - I honestly feel as if I'm walking around in a 1 inch thick emotional wet suit. All the small to medium stuff - doesn't bother me at all. I notice it - but it does NOT produce any type emotional response.
> 
> Psychological Inputs to anger:
> I used to get really tense and anxious when doing home improvement things that I had not done before. I am pretty certain I was very afraid of 'failing' and as a result looking like less of a man to M2 (my wife). Sadly, my tension and resulting anger were what caused M2 to have a lower opinion of me, NOT my sort of mediocre handy man skills. This situation was amplified by the fact that M2's father was an EXTRAORDINARY handy man. He was a fully competent: Carpenter, Electrician, Plumber, and fine finish guy (tile work, etc.). Great guy - I loved him.
> 
> So - one day - I decided that the truth was my friend. That I would be FAR happier if I embraced the truth and just let the chips fall as they may.
> 
> Shortly afterwards I'm home working on some project and M2 comes over and asks how its coming along. Now in the past - I would have gotten defensive because it felt like she was - poking at me for being slow. Often me being defensive led to a HUGE blowout.


Only in the last 6 months have I come to understand what motivates the anger, ie fear.

Like you, I would always be anxious and afraid of screwing something up. I had a step-father who would lose her mind when screwing up and a father that would verbally berate himself when making a mistake, even simple ones. Yeah, I learned that. Simple, meaningless mistakes were monster catastrophes in my head and would cause me believe that my wife wouldn't want to be around because of those mistakes (those being an inability to fix something properly, or properly diagnose a problem with an appliance or the car). Ironically, she modeled the behaviors I should have had, like shrugging off mistakes, understanding that mistakes do happen and they can be great opportunities to learn. Incidentally, over the last year, I have been trying to impart this to my boys, ie., mistakes are just another step in learning and that mistakes can be overcome if you control yourself.


----------



## DrDetroit

I did talk to a family law attorney today. Very brief as he sent me some paperwork to complete so he could have specifics for a real consult. I got his paperwork and after reading it over...started feeling uneasy about this attorney. His paperwork just has several spelling, format, and grammar errors that I can't overlook. So I contacted another family law attorney and will schedule time with her to see how I think/feel about her.

But, the atty I did talk to today explained that he thought mediation was a waste of time. His explanation - he's done mediation and the successful ones usually involve no kids or older children who decide where they want to live and two spouses with few assets and easy agreement on who gets what.

So, I'm wondering what opinions there might be here about mediation in lieu of both of us getting an attorney.

Also, given that we're in this live-in separation bullsh!t, should I follow the attorney's advice to take our savings from our joint account and put it into a sole acct that I control and to stop direct depositing my paycheck into our joint checking account?


----------



## MEM2020

That’s all true and it’s also true that not everyone is wired to excel at everything. 

You ought keep a feelings journal. It’s pretty easy, you just email yourself a short subject line email whenever you have a really strong reaction. Later in the day you can flesh out a little detail on the catalyst, duration and How Well You Handled It. 

Anyway - the point is to fix you - as that will make it FAR LESS LIKELY that you end up old, alone and bitter. 





DrDetroit said:


> Only in the last 6 months have I come to understand what motivates the anger, ie fear.
> 
> Like you, I would always be anxious and afraid of screwing something up. I had a step-father who would lose her mind when screwing up and a father that would verbally berate himself when making a mistake, even simple ones. Yeah, I learned that. Simple, meaningless mistakes were monster catastrophes in my head and would cause me believe that my wife wouldn't want to be around because of those mistakes (those being an inability to fix something properly, or properly diagnose a problem with an appliance or the car). Ironically, she modeled the behaviors I should have had, like shrugging off mistakes, understanding that mistakes do happen and they can be great opportunities to learn. Incidentally, over the last year, I have been trying to impart this to my boys, ie., mistakes are just another step in learning and that mistakes can be overcome if you control yourself.


----------



## Spicy

Very few people will agree with me that this is ok to do, but my XH and I were able to go through the divorce paperwork together, and make our decisions ourselves. We saw no reason to pay a fortune to two attorneys and then have someone who doesn’t know us at all decide where our kids would live etc. He and I wanted to make those decisions, so we did.

We really had no issue agreeing on it all, and then putting it into action. We just discussed each section, each expressed what seemed fair, agreed on it, and moved on to the next section. 

It was quick, easy, and very economical. I know most people end on very bad terms and fight about quite a bit of it, if not everything. For those, what we did would never work. 

We had no animosity toward each other. We both wanted it to be fair, but most of all have the least impact possible on our kids. It worked for _us._


----------



## MEM2020

Attorneys with poor quality work product are people with low attention to detail. Good call to find another lawyer. 

Mediation where you both get attorneys is good. Attorneys aren’t expensive, fighting is expensive. 

And unless you have complex wills and trusts - you ought to have a fairly straightforward partition of assets, income and custody. 
Mostly this is formulaic and the mediator has done it many times. 




DrDetroit said:


> I did talk to a family law attorney today. Very brief as he sent me some paperwork to complete so he could have specifics for a real consult. I got his paperwork and after reading it over...started feeling uneasy about this attorney. His paperwork just has several spelling, format, and grammar errors that I can't overlook. So I contacted another family law attorney and will schedule time with her to see how I think/feel about her.
> 
> But, the atty I did talk to today explained that he thought mediation was a waste of time. His explanation - he's done mediation and the successful ones usually involve no kids or older children who decide where they want to live and two spouses with few assets and easy agreement on who gets what.
> 
> So, I'm wondering what opinions there might be here about mediation in lieu of both of us getting an attorney.
> 
> Also, given that we're in this live-in separation bullsh!t, should I follow the attorney's advice to take our savings from our joint account and put it into a sole acct that I control and to stop direct depositing my paycheck into our joint checking account?


----------



## ABHale

I would see what your new attorney says before moving assets. Starting your own checking account and switching your direct deposit should be fine. I would wait on savings.


----------



## bandit.45

Spicy said:


> Oh no, I’m sure it did make his anger issues worse.
> 
> Her cheating is 100% on her, of course.
> 
> I am trying to get across that she is done with him. She doesn’t hold out anymore hope that they can make this work.
> 
> Once I was done, nothing my XH would do could change that.


He's angry, she’s a serial hose-queen. Who is more at fault here?


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> Also, given that we're in this live-in separation bullsh!t, should I follow the attorney's advice to take our savings from our joint account and put it into a sole acct that I control and to stop direct depositing my paycheck into our joint checking account?


Yep. 

Cancel the joint credit cards too. 

If you have life insurance or an annuity, make sure you change your beneficiary.


----------



## Chaparral

Your wife has and does live in a fantasy world. Regardless of what she says she thinks she can be with her latest other man when you are gone. Being a serial cheat she may have who knows what line d up.

Have you actually googled serial cheater?



What has she mentioned about child custody? Does she plan on giving you 50/50? Does she plan on giving you primary custody? Of course not.

As a matter of fact she wants you to file to make you look like the bad guy. Tell her you will file and list adultery as the cause. Tell her your attorney will subpoena all your and her running boyfriend’s emails, texts and social site evidence.

Does she still run? Their “feud” May very well be fake. Of course he may have well been playing her all along.


----------



## Lila

DrDetroit said:


> I did talk to a family law attorney today. Very brief as he sent me some paperwork to complete so he could have specifics for a real consult. I got his paperwork and after reading it over...started feeling uneasy about this attorney. His paperwork just has several spelling, format, and grammar errors that I can't overlook. So I contacted another family law attorney and will schedule time with her to see how I think/feel about her.
> 
> *But, the atty I did talk to today explained that he thought mediation was a waste of time. His explanation - he's done mediation and the successful ones usually involve no kids or older children who decide where they want to live and two spouses with few assets and easy agreement on who gets what.*
> 
> So, I'm wondering what opinions there might be here about mediation in lieu of both of us getting an attorney.
> 
> Also, given that we're in this live-in separation bullsh!t, should I follow the attorney's advice to take our savings from our joint account and put it into a sole acct that I control and to stop direct depositing my paycheck into our joint checking account?


Run, do not walk away from any lawyer who tells you meditation is a waste of time. Those are the lawyers who are going to "help" you make them rich. 

Do yourself a big favor and google divorce attorney reviews in your area. Review their resumes and experience before wasting time on consultations. Try to find an attorney with locally recognized awards for excellence. Don't be surprised if the lawyers with the best reviews, sharpest resumes, and highest number of awards also charge you money for the first consultation. 

Personally, I recommend you stick with a smaller firm (one or two lawyers) where you have direct access to your lawyer versus a firm where your case is handled by a team.


----------



## Spicy

bandit.45 said:


> He's angry, she’s a serial hose-queen. Who is more at fault here?


They each are at fault for what they did. The adultery ended the marriage though. C’mon @bandit.45, all the regulars on here know where I stand on serial cheaters!

For what feels like the millionth time, my posts have had nothing to do with excusing her and blaming him. They were simply to help him see that she is D-O-N-E. 

Kinda like I am with trying to explain that to you.


----------



## bandit.45

I would venture that if the women posters of TAM met the male posters of TAM, they would think half of us guys are angry, mean a**holes; when in reality, we're just men. Men are aggressive and more prone to anger. We like to wrestle, horse around, and jerk each other's chains for fun. That's just what we are. 

I will admit we don't always channel that aggressiveness well, and some of us, like the OP, have some serious impulse control issues that we need to work on. But we can't lose what makes us men, as much as some women wish we would.

I see a lot of endemic, subtle misandry in many of the posts women make here on TAM.


----------



## MEM2020

Don’t ask the internet for legal advice. Family court law is state specific.





DrDetroit said:


> I did talk to a family law attorney today. Very brief as he sent me some paperwork to complete so he could have specifics for a real consult. I got his paperwork and after reading it over...started feeling uneasy about this attorney. His paperwork just has several spelling, format, and grammar errors that I can't overlook. So I contacted another family law attorney and will schedule time with her to see how I think/feel about her.
> 
> But, the atty I did talk to today explained that he thought mediation was a waste of time. His explanation - he's done mediation and the successful ones usually involve no kids or older children who decide where they want to live and two spouses with few assets and easy agreement on who gets what.
> 
> So, I'm wondering what opinions there might be here about mediation in lieu of both of us getting an attorney.
> 
> Also, given that we're in this live-in separation bullsh!t, should I follow the attorney's advice to take our savings from our joint account and put it into a sole acct that I control and to stop direct depositing my paycheck into our joint checking account?


----------



## MEM2020

More endemic, subtle misandry, than misogyny?




bandit.45 said:


> I would venture that if the women posters of TAM met the male posters of TAM, they would think half of us guys are angry, mean a**holes; when in reality, we're just men. Men are aggressive and more prone to anger. We like to wrestle, horse around, and jerk each other's chains for fun. That's just what we are.
> 
> I will admit we don't always channel that aggressiveness well, and some of us, like the OP, have some serious impulse control issues that we need to work on. But we can't lose what makes us men, as much as some women wish we would.
> 
> I see a lot of endemic, subtle misandry in many of the posts women make here on TAM.


----------



## Chaparral

Spicy said:


> They each are at fault for what they did. The adultery ended the marriage though. C’mon @bandit.45, all the regulars on here know where I stand on serial cheaters!
> 
> For what feels like the millionth time, my posts have had nothing to do with excusing her and blaming him. They were simply to help him see that she is D-O-N-E.
> 
> Kinda like I am with trying to explain that to you.


She was never in.


----------



## bandit.45

MEM2020 said:


> More endemic, subtle misandry, than misogyny?


Just as much if not more. We just give the gals a pass.


----------



## bandit.45

Chaparral said:


> She was never in.


Exactly. As long as she carried a torch for that ex-boyfriend, the marriage was a sham
from day one.


----------



## MEM2020

I don’t believe we know the OP’s legal venue. And therefore it is not possible to give him proper legal advice. 

DrD,
The single most popular activity on TAM is called proxy warfare. In this activity, other people attempt to get YOU to do what makes THEM feel better. It almost always involves adopting a scorched earth policy towards your STBX, regardless of the impact on your children, finances or legal status. 

Talk to a lawyer, and work with that lawyer to develop a strategy. Tell the lawyer that you: Love your children more than you hate your STBX - and wish to devise a strategy which recognizes that fact. 

Then - follow the strategy. 

As for the numerous proxy warriors on TAM - be very careful - as they don’t have to live with your consequences.....



Chaparral said:


> Your wife has and does live in a fantasy world. Regardless of what she says she thinks she can be with her latest other man when you are gone. Being a serial cheat she may have who knows what line d up.
> 
> Have you actually googled serial cheater?
> 
> 
> 
> What has she mentioned about child custody? Does she plan on giving you 50/50? Does she plan on giving you primary custody? Of course not.
> 
> As a matter of fact she wants you to file to make you look like the bad guy. Tell her you will file and list adultery as the cause. Tell her your attorney will subpoena all your and her running boyfriend’s emails, texts and social site evidence.
> 
> Does she still run? Their “feud” May very well be fake. Of course he may have well been playing her all along.


----------



## Casual Observer

MEM2020 said:


> The post below describes the path toward combat. It is the reason so many divorces are hostile, exhausting and far more expensive than need be.
> 
> The marriage is over. Accept that. And recognize that you need to focus your energy on improving YOU.


Don't worry, I get that. Just suggesting the inner person and what needs to be done can be at odds with one another. You have to be the better person. Maybe years down the road you can have the conversation I suggested. And both laugh about it. I *think* that would indicate a healthy recovery for both parties.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes to all this. 




Lila said:


> Run, do not walk away from any lawyer who tells you meditation is a waste of time. Those are the lawyers who are going to "help" you make them rich.
> 
> Do yourself a big favor and google divorce attorney reviews in your area. Review their resumes and experience before wasting time on consultations. Try to find an attorney with locally recognized awards for excellence. Don't be surprised if the lawyers with the best reviews, sharpest resumes, and highest number of awards also charge you money for the first consultation.
> 
> Personally, I recommend you stick with a smaller firm (one or two lawyers) where you have direct access to your lawyer versus a firm where your case is handled by a team.


----------



## Chaparral

MEM2020 said:


> I don’t believe we know the OP’s legal venue. And therefore it is not possible to give him proper legal advice.
> 
> DrD,
> The single most popular activity on TAM is called proxy warfare. In this activity, other people attempt to get YOU to do what makes THEM feel better. It almost always involves adopting a scorched earth policy towards your STBX, regardless of the impact on your children, finances or legal status.
> 
> Talk to a lawyer, and work with that lawyer to develop a strategy. Tell the lawyer that you: Love your children more than you hate your STBX - and wish to devise a strategy which recognizes that fact.
> 
> Then - follow the strategy.
> 
> As for the numerous proxy warriors on TAM - be very careful - as they don’t have to live with your consequences.....


Not sure how this apples to my post. My point was to plot a course to wake his wife up. The only legal advice I gave him was to file under adultery. If he is in an at fault state there could be many benefits to doing so. Even in many fault states adultery can be listed as a cause and influence a judge. 
She says she wants a divorce but won’t file. She must have a reason to make him file. It can’t be for his benefit.


----------



## DrDetroit

Chaparral said:


> Your wife has and does live in a fantasy world. Regardless of what she says she thinks she can be with her latest other man when you are gone. Being a serial cheat she may have who knows what line d up.
> 
> Have you actually googled serial cheater?
> 
> What has she mentioned about child custody? Does she plan on giving you 50/50? Does she plan on giving you primary custody? Of course not.
> 
> As a matter of fact she wants you to file to make you look like the bad guy. Tell her you will file and list adultery as the cause. Tell her your attorney will subpoena all your and her running boyfriend’s emails, texts and social site evidence.
> 
> Does she still run? Their “feud” May very well be fake. Of course he may have well been playing her all along.


We haven't talked about custody. I seriously think that shes prepared to and would accept living as separated co-parents as she won't file for divorce (as far as she's indicated to me and our MC).

Regarding MC, no we're not going any longer.

In May when she first indicated that she wanted to separate her plan was to move out. Fast forward a month following our summer trip back to our home state and she's changed her mind explained to me and MC that she doesn't trust me with the kids. Which is BS considering that she was going ho about moving out,looking at places, etc. I think it had more to with the roommate she was going to have couldn't afford it.

So all of that to say that we haven't talked about custody, mainly because I've been resisting divorce.

She is no longer running with the OM, though I believe there is at least low level how is the family emails going back and forth. There's no feud there between her and the OM although she was in her writing carping about him not reaching out and whining about losing him as a friend.


----------



## DrDetroit

Spicy said:


> They each are at fault for what they did. The adultery ended the marriage though. C’mon @bandit.45, all the regulars on here know where I stand on serial cheaters!
> 
> For what feels like the millionth time, my posts have had nothing to do with excusing her and blaming him. They were simply to help him see that she is D-O-N-E.
> 
> Kinda like I am with trying to explain that to you.


The exchange between you and bandit doesn't seem to be productive. I think it's driven the medium rather than a real disagreement between you two.


----------



## DrDetroit

MEM2020 said:


> I don’t believe we know the OP’s legal venue. And therefore it is not possible to give him proper legal advice.
> 
> DrD,
> The single most popular activity on TAM is called proxy warfare. In this activity, other people attempt to get YOU to do what makes THEM feel better. It almost always involves adopting a scorched earth policy towards your STBX, regardless of the impact on your children, finances or legal status.
> 
> Talk to a lawyer, and work with that lawyer to develop a strategy. Tell the lawyer that you: Love your children more than you hate your STBX - and wish to devise a strategy which recognizes that fact.
> 
> Then - follow the strategy.
> 
> As for the numerous proxy warriors on TAM - be very careful - as they don’t have to live with your consequences.....


Thanks for the reminder and I have kept that in mind. We all have our lenses through which our biases and needs are expressed.


----------



## DrDetroit

BTW, I'm in Oregon, so no fault state.


----------



## DrDetroit

I'm also looking for advice regarding just how to interact with her. It's hard being at home and not striking up a conversation or to engage in conversations that she initiates about her job, the kids, her family stuff. Do I just knock off initiating conversations with her and just politely listen when she initiates conversations with me?

Also, this texting stuff... This morning she texted me about crap at school where she works and an unreasonable expectation her principal has, then dropped a text about her friend who does online teaching and then another about a job at another employer. do I reply, express empathy, validate, not reply?

Maybe I am overthinking this.

Nonetheless, then I get a text asking me to look into health insurance for the boys...


----------



## alte Dame

She wants a divorce, but won't file. You don't want a divorce and don't want to file.

I'm in the camp that thinks that the person who files first is in the advantaged position. Definitely shore up your finances - have direct deposit into only your account, change life insurance beneficiary to your children only, etc. File. Do it for yourself.

You can't force her to love you and/or want to stay married. Why would you want a caged bird? Especially one who escapes regularly to cheat with other birds?

I understand your feelings about the integrity of the family and what you saw when you were growing up, but ask yourself about your integrity as a person right now. You don't want to be someone who forces someone to stay with you, do you? Your healthy pride should resist that, imo.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> In May when she first indicated that she wanted to separate her plan was to move out. Fast forward a month following our summer trip back to our home state and she's changed her mind explained to me and MC that she doesn't trust me with the kids. Which is BS considering that she was going ho about moving out,looking at places, etc. I think it had more to with the roommate she was going to have couldn't afford it.
> .


Allow me to translate. Things didn't work out with Mr Wonderful so she is sticking around until someone better comes along.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> I'm also looking for advice regarding just how to interact with her. It's hard being at home and not striking up a conversation or to engage in conversations that she initiates about her job, the kids, her family stuff. Do I just knock off initiating conversations with her and just politely listen when she initiates conversations with me?
> 
> Also, this texting stuff... This morning she texted me about crap at school where she works and an unreasonable expectation her principal has, then dropped a text about her friend who does online teaching and then another about a job at another employer. do I reply, express empathy, validate, not reply?
> 
> Maybe I am overthinking this.
> 
> Nonetheless, then I get a text asking me to look into health insurance for the boys...


So she works for a school. Can she not talk to her supervisor/HR department and see if she can be reassigned? I would think they have some responsibility to ensure employee safety and general well being. If she is really being physically abused by her students that creates a legal problem for the school. They may be able to find her another position that she would be happier with and then the health insurance is a non issue for now.

But I would talk to your employer and find out under what conditions you can add your kids to your health insurance. Start getting your ducks in a row.


----------



## Tasorundo

DrDetroit, are you mad about any of this? Are you mad that your wife was fantasizing about banging another guy in the shower? Are you mad that she sent sexy pictures of herself to another man?

Why are you just taking this from her, like you cannot live without her? Stop accepting her crap.

She wants out, she wants some other guy, just let her go and be done. When she wants to chit chat, just deflect it and walk away. She is not your friend, she is not your wife anymore.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> And then I get **** like this via text:
> 
> Can we discuss health insurance options soon? I don't think i can lasts in this environment, I have 10 sick days and 5 PTO days that i can use. My body is so completely beat up and sistrict is not going to do anything about the situation. I know you have benefits and can cover the boys. If you do not want to cover me due to our current situation I understand.
> 
> She is a teacher's aide in an emotional growth classroom for k-3 she'd students. Think regular classroom but the kids have emotional and behavioral problems that preclude being in a regular class. We're talking kids that hit, bite, kick, throw chairs, swear, etc. Her current classroom should have 4 adults but it's just her and the teacher who is a 1st year teacher so the start of the year has been crazy. Although she loves the work, she's been hit more in the 1st 2 weeks than the first half of last school year.
> 
> My gut instinct is to reply, of course we can discuss, I know this year has sucked and can see the stress you're carrying as a result. I actually types that out, but decided not to send it.


As long as she is being truthful and not exaggerating, this is a huge legal liability for the school district if they sit back and do nothing. That's a tough spot for her and puts you in a tough spot as well. Not sure what to tell you here. If she were to quit, then you could add the kids to your health insurance. I'd be wary of her either being unemployed or taking a significant pay cut at her next job as that could certainly impact the divorce settlement. Not sure how you get there, but I'd make sure she is employed at a salary equal to or more than what she is making now before you finalize your divorce.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> So she works for a school. Can she not talk to her supervisor/HR department and see if she can be reassigned? I would think they have some responsibility to ensure employee safety and general well being. If she is really being physically abused by her students that creates a legal problem for the school. They may be able to find her another position that she would be happier with and then the health insurance is a non issue for now.
> 
> But I would talk to your employer and find out under what conditions you can add your kids to your health insurance. Start getting your ducks in a row.


About the school situation - the physical aspects are expected. She works in an emotional change and growth classroom with k - 3 kids who exhibit disregulated behaviors like cussing, throwing things, hitting, etc, that prevents placement in a mainstream classroom. Hence, she has been trained to restrain children. Problem is this year it's only her and a newbie teacher when they should have 4 adults in the room - 2 to restrain, 1 to write report, the last one handling the class during the restraint. Until they properly staff the room, it's what she's working with.

I'm already talking to my HR staff regarding insurance.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tasorundo said:


> DrDetroit, are you mad about any of this? Are you mad that your wife was fantasizing about banging another guy in the shower? Are you mad that she sent sexy pictures of herself to another man?
> 
> Why are you just taking this from her, like you cannot live without her? Stop accepting her crap.
> 
> She wants out, she wants some other guy, just let her go and be done. When she wants to chit chat, just deflect it and walk away. She is not your friend, she is not your wife anymore.


Initially I was and that has since tempered. Perhaps that's because I know my contribution to creating the space wherein she felt the need to do these things. Perhaps because being angry about it means I make bad choices. Perhaps because despite her behavior I feel (and this not rational) that I love her and want to be a marriage with her (albeit without the anger, with love and commitment). 

Hell, I don't know. I keep thinking about how easy it is for others to simply say GTFO and run away...fast. I have to imagine I'm in some sort of fog.


----------



## Tasorundo

I think you are in shock of sorts. You are holding on to something that isn't there.

I am not saying that you should not own your side of the street and you should definitely do some personal work to be a better man and father going forward.

However, she has stepped over lines 3 times in your marriage. 3 times! You are not some awful man that forced her to run to comfort and safety. She had her running shoes on the whole time and just needed an excuse.

You are not holding her accountable for her side of the street and accepting a narrative that your side was so messy it crapped up both. It wasn't. It just simply wasn't.

Up to this point, you have just gone along with her, hoping that she will come back. She was never really there, she was never all in.

Things are not going to change and the longer you allow yourself to be open to her, the longer she will use that until it no longer servers her purposes. For your own healing, you need to start cutting ties.

She needs to see that you guys are not friends. You are co-parents now.


----------



## bandit.45

This ^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## DrDetroit

Tasorundo said:


> I think you are in shock of sorts. You are holding on to something that isn't there.
> 
> I am not saying that you should not own your side of the street and you should definitely do some personal work to be a better man and father going forward.
> 
> However, she has stepped over lines 3 times in your marriage. 3 times! You are not some awful man that forced her to run to comfort and safety. She had her running shoes on the whole time and just needed an excuse.
> 
> You are not holding her accountable for her side of the street and accepting a narrative that your side was so messy it crapped up both. It wasn't. It just simply wasn't.
> 
> Up to this point, you have just gone along with her, hoping that she will come back. She was never really there, she was never all in.
> 
> Things are not going to change and the longer you allow yourself to be open to her, the longer she will use that until it no longer servers her purposes. For your own healing, you need to start cutting ties.
> 
> She needs to see that you guys are not friends. You are co-parents now.


I wonder what holding her accountable for her side of the street looks like in a practical sense. Is it divorce?

I appreciate your post. I am in shock. And for weeks I have been holding on to a hope (false or otherwise) of reconciliation. I still do. However, I am also recognizing that she is using me.

I'm just stupid in this area. I don't even know how to think about it. Maybe if I was more angry then I'd have an easier time recognizing that I am not 100% at fault here and that she is using me and deliberately so.


----------



## Tasorundo

The first step, is that a wife that tell other men she cannot wait to have sex with them, doesn't get to be your friend.

Just consider her a person that lives in your house. Stop being nice to her, don't do anything for her. If she asks you a question, give her the shortest answer possible. If she starts complaining about her day, say "that sounds bad" and leave the room. You are not her emotional sounding board, and you are not her confidant.


----------



## MEM2020

DrD,

I understand the basic idea now. 

- It is absolutely fine for you to not initiate/file for divorce. 
- In the developed world - the ONLY boundary enforcement opportunity available to you - is to divorce your spouse - please see the first bullet item.

This means that you can insist she refrain from third party communication/fraternization, but you have no real enforcement mechanism. Trying to shame her socially, won’t work. It will however make her hate you. And it will make her see you as weak and manipulative. 

With that said - I have no idea what your dynamic is. But it feels like you are somehow trying to reboot a relationship which has no trust or respect. 

And frankly, my prediction is that she will: 
1. Not work towards reconciliation and
2. Will not file for divorce

I think she has financial reasons for not wanting a divorce. But not wanting to be legally and financially divorced is wildly different than actually wanting to be married. 





DrDetroit said:


> Standing up for my marriage means continuing to insist on no contact with the OM; continuing to change myself and improve myself (emotionally and physically); not initiating the divorce; continue to communicate that I want to work on the marriage. I can respect my wife's desire to leave the marriage even if that means I won't initiate the divorce. I will do so by not bringing up the issue of working on the marriage (but will, when she confronts me about wanting a divorce validate her feelings and reinforce my desire not to be divorced); and not pursuing her (seeking time alone with her, dates, I love you's, etc.).
> 
> I agree on the last two bullets.


----------



## MEM2020

DrD,

Google: relationship 180

Tasorundo is giving you some bullets from that strategy. 



Tasorundo said:


> The first step, is that a wife that tell other men she cannot wait to have sex with them, doesn't get to be your friend.
> 
> Just consider her a person that lives in your house. Stop being nice to her, don't do anything for her. If she asks you a question, give her the shortest answer possible. If she starts complaining about her day, say "that sounds bad" and leave the room. You are not her emotional sounding board, and you are not her confidant.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tasorundo said:


> The first step, is that a wife that tell other men she cannot wait to have sex with them, doesn't get to be your friend.
> 
> Just consider her a person that lives in your house. Stop being nice to her, don't do anything for her. If she asks you a question, give her the shortest answer possible. If she starts complaining about her day, say "that sounds bad" and leave the room. You are not her emotional sounding board, and you are not her confidant.


Thanks for the advice.

Yeah, my want, desire, hope for a reconciliation led me initially (when she first said she wanted to be separated) to be nice, i.e., initiate conversations, be responsive, talk about "family" plans. Then I found out about the OM and the first week was anger so I interacted very little. The first weekend and subsequent few weekends was her being an emotional wreck and me trying to talk to her. The last couple of weeks I have been withdrawing, not like I used to where I would mope around, say very little, but have nearly stopped initiating conversations, responding cordially, etc.

Yesterday was my birthday and for a couple weeks she was asking what we would be doing and I just hemmed and hawed. Finally, she brought it up to our kids at the dinner table and the kids said they'd like to do sushi. So it was, without being explicit, a plan that we'd all be going. This past weekend, she wants to talk about whether I was taking the kids or if we were all going. I told her I preferred that we all go. She's now making plans for a Thanksgiving camping trip for the 4 of us. When she first brought it up two weeks ago I just responded by saying that sounded like an interesting idea for Thanksgiving without committing to it. Right now I'm not sure if she's still thinking that we're all going together.

I don't know how to not care about her, not be a friend, not be a sounding board. Maybe that's me co-dependency working, maybe that's me not letting myself be angry...

I want you all to know that I'm not trying to make excuses here to maintain contact, I am just saying where my head is at and trying to figure out my head through this typing.


----------



## PreRaph

DrDetroit said:


> I wonder what holding her accountable for her side of the street looks like in a practical sense. Is it divorce?
> .


Yes. It is you saying I've had enough of this and I will not go on like this. So if you don't love me, don't want to be with me and would rather be with another man, then go. And you start the process, because if she doesn't go then she's staying for convenience sake. You are plan B or plan C. Get that through your head. Say it to yourself regularly.

And as for her frequent messages. Answer them only as necessary. Otherwise, do not. Your relationship with her should now be strictly the business of making for an amiable split for you and for your children. There isn't anything else to discuss with her. 

it is time for you to begin the painful process of detaching.


----------



## DrDetroit

MEM2020 said:


> DrD,
> 
> I understand the basic idea now.
> 
> - It is absolutely fine for you to not initiate/file for divorce.
> - In the developed world - the ONLY boundary enforcement opportunity available to you - is to divorce your spouse - please see the first bullet item.
> 
> This means that you can insist she refrain from third party communication/fraternization, but you have no real enforcement mechanism. Trying to shame her socially, won’t work. It will however make her hate you. And it will make her see you as weak and manipulative.
> 
> With that said - I have no idea what your dynamic is. But it feels like you are somehow trying to reboot a relationship which has no trust or respect.
> 
> And frankly, my prediction is that she will:
> 1. Not work towards reconciliation and
> 2. Will not file for divorce
> 
> I think she has financial reasons for not wanting a divorce. But not wanting to be legally and financially divorced is wildly different than actually wanting to be married.


Interesting you suggest that I am trying to reboot a relationship without trust or respect. In one of her 2 letters to me she explicitly noted that we should try to reconcile because we don't have a foundation I trust to build on. I read it, absorbed it, and then thought, bull****. Between the late 90s and 2009 we have years of trust and chalked her writing up to reinventing history.

But I see your point. Since 2009, I haven't really trusted her. At least since then she hasn't trusted me because of the multiple broken promises to fix myself.

Damn it...this should be easier given the circumstances. Why would I want to continue in a relationship with someone who has cheated on me 3 times? Why would I want to to hang on to someone who says that no longer want to be married to me? What the hell is wrong with my head?


----------



## Openminded

You're codependent. 

You have a lot of work to do in order to become the healthiest version of you that's possible but it'll be worth the effort.


----------



## DrDetroit

Openminded said:


> You're codependent.
> 
> You have a lot of work to do in order to become the healthiest version of you that's possible but it'll be worth the effort.


Yeah, my IC told me that 2-3 months ago. Something that I have been working on.


----------



## Openminded

DrDetroit said:


> Yeah, my IC told me that 2-3 months ago. Something that I have been working on.


It can feel like a slow process but you'll get there.


----------



## Tilted 1

Tasorundo said:


> The first step, is that a wife that tell other men she cannot wait to have sex with them, doesn't get to be your friend.
> 
> Just consider her a person that lives in your house. Stop being nice to her, don't do anything for her. If she asks you a question, give her the shortest answer possible. If she starts complaining about her day, say "that sounds bad" and leave the room. You are not her emotional sounding board, and you are not her confidant.


Exactly, so to speak " TOUGH LOVE " of sorts let them be accountable awhile. It also show her a new side of you. 
"I take no bull***t. From you this time forward.


----------



## DrDetroit

What an evening.

We dropped her car off at the shop last and I gave her a ride home. Today, talked to the shop to figure out what's with the car and arranged to pick it up tonight. Let he know it;s ready and that I wanted to come home from work, get changed, and go get the car so I could get my son's bike to the bike shop afterwards. Okay, sounds good.

Get home from work and her friend is here. I walk in, say hi, and go get changed. I come back down and she says, oh, you said you wanted to go get the car right away. Feeling charitable, I reply, but your friend is here, so we'll go a little later. 2 hours later, I just left, went to the store. 

Come home and her friend is gone and my wife and boys are at table eating supper. She says, we didn't know where you went or if you were coming back for dinner, you didn't tell anyone you were leaving. I say I took time to go to the store while you were with your girl friend.

Sit down, have supper, and...knowing that she would want to get her car tonight so she could go run in the morning, I ask the kids if they want to play a game. I also start talking to the kids about tomorrow morning and doing an school clean up before going to an air show here. She asks if she is invited to the school cleanup because I keep saying that I and the boys are going. I tell her I've mentioned the clean up activity twice and she didn't express any interest. She replies, thats because you keep keep saying you and the boys. So I shoot back, well, I'm doing as you have done recently...you say you're doing something and if anyone wants to go they can choose to go. She corrected me by noting that not only would she say what she was doing, but then ask if anyone wanted to go. I wimped out and asked her she wanted to go and she said yes.

The boys were arguing about what game to play, so I wimped out, again, and said, it doesn't look like we can agree on a game, so I am taking your mom to get her car.

On the way out of the house I show her a picture her sister sent of her kids to my wife and instantly saw she was annoyed. Brushed it off.

On the way to get the car, I ask about how close she is to quitting and we start chatting. Along the way, she starts talking about how she needs to a real job, one where she doesnt have a part time job and the summers off. She goes one to say that she needs to suck it up and pull her big girls pants and get a full time job. As we pull into the shop's parking lot, she says that she can't live in this fantasy world where she can be continue being the primary parent working a part time job while having summers off. We chat for a few moments and she then says, well, we're on the verge of a separation or a divorce whether forced or amicable. I let her go on. She goes to exit my car and on the way out says, but you get to keep the friends and family before shutting the door. 

WTF, man....


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> I wonder what holding her accountable for her side of the street looks like in a practical sense. Is it divorce?
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate your post. I am in shock. And for weeks I have been holding on to a hope (false or otherwise) of reconciliation. I still do. However, I am also recognizing that she is using me.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just stupid in this area. I don't even know how to think about it. Maybe if I was more angry then I'd have an easier time recognizing that I am not 100% at fault here and that she is using me and deliberately so.


It starts with loving yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Interesting you suggest that I am trying to reboot a relationship without trust or respect. In one of her 2 letters to me she explicitly noted that we should try to reconcile because we don't have a foundation I trust to build on. I read it, absorbed it, and then thought, bull****. Between the late 90s and 2009 we have years of trust and chalked her writing up to reinventing history.
> 
> But I see your point. Since 2009, I haven't really trusted her. At least since then she hasn't trusted me because of the multiple broken promises to fix myself.
> 
> Damn it...this should be easier given the circumstances. Why would I want to continue in a relationship with someone who has cheated on me 3 times? Why would I want to to hang on to someone who says that no longer want to be married to me? What the hell is wrong with my head?


Fear.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> What an evening.
> 
> 
> 
> We dropped her car off at the shop last and I gave her a ride home. Today, talked to the shop to figure out what's with the car and arranged to pick it up tonight. Let he know it;s ready and that I wanted to come home from work, get changed, and go get the car so I could get my son's bike to the bike shop afterwards. Okay, sounds good.
> 
> 
> 
> Get home from work and her friend is here. I walk in, say hi, and go get changed. I come back down and she says, oh, you said you wanted to go get the car right away. Feeling charitable, I reply, but your friend is here, so we'll go a little later. 2 hours later, I just left, went to the store.
> 
> 
> 
> Come home and her friend is gone and my wife and boys are at table eating supper. She says, we didn't know where you went or if you were coming back for dinner, you didn't tell anyone you were leaving. I say I took time to go to the store while you were with your girl friend.
> 
> 
> 
> Sit down, have supper, and...knowing that she would want to get her car tonight so she could go run in the morning, I ask the kids if they want to play a game. I also start talking to the kids about tomorrow morning and doing an school clean up before going to an air show here. She asks if she is invited to the school cleanup because I keep saying that I and the boys are going. I tell her I've mentioned the clean up activity twice and she didn't express any interest. She replies, thats because you keep keep saying you and the boys. So I shoot back, well, I'm doing as you have done recently...you say you're doing something and if anyone wants to go they can choose to go. She corrected me by noting that not only would she say what she was doing, but then ask if anyone wanted to go. I wimped out and asked her she wanted to go and she said yes.
> 
> 
> 
> The boys were arguing about what game to play, so I wimped out, again, and said, it doesn't look like we can agree on a game, so I am taking your mom to get her car.
> 
> 
> 
> On the way out of the house I show her a picture her sister sent of her kids to my wife and instantly saw she was annoyed. Brushed it off.
> 
> 
> 
> On the way to get the car, I ask about how close she is to quitting and we start chatting. Along the way, she starts talking about how she needs to a real job, one where she doesnt have a part time job and the summers off. She goes one to say that she needs to suck it up and pull her big girls pants and get a full time job. As we pull into the shop's parking lot, she says that she can't live in this fantasy world where she can be continue being the primary parent working a part time job while having summers off. We chat for a few moments and she then says, well, we're on the verge of a separation or a divorce whether forced or amicable. I let her go on. She goes to exit my car and on the way out says, but you get to keep the friends and family before shutting the door.
> 
> 
> 
> WTF, man....


Too much engagement.

You 'need' her. She needs drama, so she instigates push-pull.

Get...off...the...carousel...

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DrDetroit

farsidejunky said:


> Too much engagement.
> 
> You 'need' her. She needs drama, so she instigates push-pull.
> 
> Get...off...the...carousel...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Yep. I'm disengaged tonight. Not asking if she's okay, not reacting to her, not doing anything other than getting our boys ready for bed and talking to them about our plans for tomorrow.

Look forward to taking them to the air show.


----------



## MEM2020

You don’t have a plan. 

The conversation she just had with you about her big girl pants. That was to let you know why she hasn’t filed yet. Financial anxiety. Thing is she might not file so fast. Why are you ok being in limbo open ended?






DrDetroit said:


> Yep. I'm disengaged tonight. Not asking if she's okay, not reacting to her, not doing anything other than getting our boys ready for bed and talking to them about our plans for tomorrow.
> 
> Look forward to taking them to the air show.


----------



## DrDetroit

Oh my... My oldest boy offered her his bed to sleep in and he would sleep on the couch. He's a sweet boy. Wife goes upstairs after saying good night and few minutes later comes down saying she's having a hard time breathing and his breathing rapidly, panic attack style. She says she has to go for a walk and leaves.

I take a look in my boys room and see she has her journal up there. I've seen some of what shes written in it from another partial letter to me from a month ago to her writing about why she has to lose her friendship with the OM and one of her friends.

What a night.


----------



## DrDetroit

MEM2020 said:


> You don’t have a plan.
> 
> The conversation she just had with you about her big girl pants. That was to let you know why she hasn’t filed yet. Financial anxiety. Thing is she might not file so fast. Why are you ok being in limbo open ended?


You're right,I don't have a plan. I just spoke to an atty yesterday and have contacted another. Getting contact info for another as well.

What kind of plan are you referring to?


----------



## Marc878

Bud, read up on the 180. Stop the needless engagement and go your own way. If you can do that you'll get a lot more clarity around this.

I'd also point out your wife is a want not a need. Many go through this and come out fine. You'll never get there with fear guiding you.

She went for a walk to talk to her boyfriend or meet him.

Limbo is a self imposed state. Only you can keep yourself there.


----------



## Marc878

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/affairrecoveryforum/the-180-t10616.html

Here's the 180. Implement and quit wallowing. It's an action. Talk leads nowhere


----------



## Marc878

https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy

You would do well to read this too. It's short and will help you.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> Bud, read up on the 180. Stop the needless engagement and go your own way. If you can do that you'll get a lot more clarity around this.
> 
> I'd also point out your wife is a want not a need. Many go through this and come out fine. You'll never get there with fear guiding you.
> 
> She went for a walk to talk to her boyfriend or meet him.
> 
> Limbo is a self imposed state. Only you can keep yourself there.


Nah, OM and his wife are out of town this weekend with their kids.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy
> 
> You would do well to read this too. It's short and will help you.


On a waiting list for this book.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/affairrecoveryforum/the-180-t10616.html
> 
> Here's the 180. Implement and quit wallowing. It's an action. Talk leads nowhere


I'm trying, man. I read this same list in the Divorce Remedy book.


----------



## MEM2020

Go read what you posted earlier about how you are going to stand up for what you want and fight for your marriage. 

You need to unlearn your communication style. You start off with: 
- I’m finding and attorney then suddenly switch to
- I’m standing up for what I want - to remain married 
- Followed by - my wife and I don’t respect or trust each other 
- Followed by - what do you mean I don’t have a plan





DrDetroit said:


> You're right,I don't have a plan. I just spoke to an atty yesterday and have contacted another. Getting contact info for another as well.
> 
> What kind of plan are you referring to?


----------



## DrDetroit

MEM2020 said:


> Go read what you posted earlier about how you are going to stand up for what you want and fight for your marriage.
> 
> You need to unlearn your communication style. You start off with:
> - I’m finding and attorney then suddenly switch to
> - I’m standing up for what I want - to remain married
> - Followed by - my wife and I don’t respect or trust each other
> - Followed by - what do you mean I don’t have a plan


I am an idiot at this stuff. I'm trying to follow, but...I'll re-read. I don't expect answers from anyone here, so I not demanding that someone tell me something. Just feeling dumb right now.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> On a waiting list for this book.


Click on the link it's a free pdf download


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Nah, OM and his wife are out of town this weekend with their kids.


That never stopped a cheater yet!


----------



## MEM2020

You are a smart guy who is going through the hardest time of your life. 

Of course you are conflicted. 

I apologize for my tone. 





DrDetroit said:


> I am an idiot at this stuff. I'm trying to follow, but...I'll re-read. I don't expect answers from anyone here, so I not demanding that someone tell me something. Just feeling dumb right now.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Nah, OM and his wife are out of town this weekend with their kids.


Have you exposed to OM's wife?

It's the first thing you should always do.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> On a waiting list for this book.


Buy the e-book version. 

Quit making excuses.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> I am an idiot at this stuff. I'm trying to follow, but...I'll re-read. I don't expect answers from anyone here, so I not demanding that someone tell me something. Just feeling dumb right now.


No dumb, just overwhelmed


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> Have you exposed to OM's wife?
> 
> It's the first thing you should always do.


The OMs wife knows. The OMs wife and OM were having a very difficult time in their marriage which is how the OM and my wife started connecting. The OMs wife suffered a brain injury years ago and over the last year developed a bad drinking problem. Just before I found out about my wife and the OM's "feelings for each other", he had told me that he'd given his wife an ultimatum that she clean up the drinking or they were done and he was trying to get her into rehab (with my wife's help!).

The OM told his wife two days after I confronted the OM and my wife. I have been in touch with the OM's wife (these are very close family friends of ours) and while I told her initially only about the I love you texts, I didn't say anything about the showering text. I stupidly assumed that he would be honest and that my wife would be honest. The OMs wife wrote a letter to my wife wherein she encouraged my wife not to abandon the friendship with the OM because they worked so hard on developing it. I was beside myself, wtf?

In the meantime, the OMs wife and I have discussed our situations and I have stated more than once that if the OM and my wife can't keep in contact if she hopes to mend her marriage. That the "feelings" will reignite every time they interact. Finally, a week ago I told her about the showering text. I reiterated that I didn't want a divorce and that if her husband and she wanted to mend their marriage then there shouldn't be contact. She responded by saying that she didn't care if my wife and her husband were talking 'cuz she could only control herself...can you believe it?

So the OMs wife knows. Some of my wife's friends know of her "inappropriate relationship" with the OM. Some of her family knows that we are "separated" but I don't know if they know about her "feelings" for the OM. To be honest, based on other reading, including Divorce Busters, I haven't been inclined to explicitly expose this to her family or other friends.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Nah, OM and his wife are out of town this weekend with their kids.


OM has a phone that won't stop them


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> OM has a phone that won't stop them


She left her phone here...Im not deluding myself here, she wasn't out with or connecting with the OM. 

I really do think that her crying tonight and her panic attack-like thing tonight reflects her disgust with having me near her and in the same house and that she feels completely trapped in this marriage because I won't divorce her.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> The OMs wife knows. The OMs wife and OM were having a very difficult time in their marriage which is how the OM and my wife started connecting. The OMs wife suffered a brain injury years ago and over the last year developed a bad drinking problem. Just before I found out about my wife and the OM's "feelings for each other", he had told me that he'd given his wife an ultimatum that she clean up the drinking or they were done and he was trying to get her into rehab (with my wife's help!).
> 
> The OM told his wife two days after I confronted the OM and my wife. I have been in touch with the OM's wife (these are very close family friends of ours) and while I told her initially only about the I love you texts, I didn't say anything about the showering text. I stupidly assumed that he would be honest and that my wife would be honest. The OMs wife wrote a letter to my wife wherein she encouraged my wife not to abandon the friendship with the OM because they worked so hard on developing it. I was beside myself, wtf?
> 
> That happens when you don't do a full exposure. Stop tiptoeing around the tulips
> 
> In the meantime, the OMs wife and I have discussed our situations and I have stated more than once that if the OM and my wife can't keep in contact if she hopes to mend her marriage. That the "feelings" will reignite every time they interact. Finally, a week ago I told her about the showering text. I reiterated that I didn't want a divorce and that if her husband and she wanted to mend their marriage then there shouldn't be contact. She responded by saying that she didn't care if my wife and her husband were talking 'cuz she could only control herself...can you believe it?
> 
> So the OMs wife knows. Some of my wife's friends know of her "inappropriate relationship" with the OM. Some of her family knows that we are "separated" but I don't know if they know about her "feelings" for the OM. *To be honest, based on other reading, including Divorce Busters, I haven't been inclined to explicitly expose this to her family or other friends*.


Divorce Busters has a horrid recovery rate. I've seen many abandon that system. I hope you didn't pay them anything!!!!

It's tied to "nicing them back" and playing the "pick me dance". Be a cuckold and hope they come back. Neither works. 

Affairs only thrive in secrecy and the dark. Do you really think it's your job to help hide their affair? That's probably the biggest mistake a lot of BS's make upfront.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> Divorce Busters has a horrid recovery rate. I've seen many abandon that system. I hope you didn't pay them anything!!!!
> 
> It's tied to "nicing them back" and playing the "pick me dance". Be a cuckold and hope they come back. Neither works.
> 
> Affairs only thrive in secrecy and the dark. Do you really think it's your job to help hide their affair? That's probably the biggest mistake a lot of BS's make upfront.


Thanks for the comments. Really.

I haven't paid for anything at divorce busters, just read the Divorce Remedy.

I'm slowly exposing to her friends and now her family.


----------



## Marc878

I get where you're at. Right now you're scattered and reacting all over the place.

Maybe you should write down what you need to do and start doing it. Make a lust and check it off.

The 180 will help you most and take you out of the equation but you must implement it.

Clarity will come if you follow it.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Thanks for the comments. Really.
> 
> I haven't paid for anything at divorce busters, just read the Divorce Remedy.
> 
> I'm slowly exposing to her friends and now her family.


No!!! Exposure works best done all at once without warning. You don't trickle it out. It lessens the impact.


----------



## Marc878

She'll be pissed off because you are destroying her hidden fantasy life. Your reaction is "sorry if the truth hurts". Let this be their problem to deal with. Maybe they shouldn't have had the affair? Duh


----------



## Marc878

IN these cases exposure is your only weapon. 

If it doesn't work then you know there's nothing you can do.

Bud, you don't have a thing to lose here.

Exposure won't push her away. She's already gone. It's you're only action to try and break it.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> I get where you're at. Right now you're scattered and reacting all over the place.
> 
> Maybe you should write down what you need to do and start doing it. Make a lust and check it off.
> 
> The 180 will help you most and take you out of the equation but you must implement it.
> 
> Clarity will come if you follow it.


What are the types of things I should be doing? Talking to an atty, eating right and exercising, continuing IC, being with my boys, ... ?


----------



## Marc878

I would do exposure first. Lay out a plan and do it all at once. If it doesn't work so what. You aren't out much are you? 

Implement the 180. Spend some time with family and friends. You need all the support you can get.

Taking care of your kids is a top priority.

Definitely see at least 3 attorneys. Look over their reviews. They aren't all good. Knowledge is power. Know your rights in a divorce.

Exercise and diet are great.

Watch the alcohol. It's a depressant and will make things worse.

You know what to do for the most part. Get moving and don't slack off your plans.


----------



## Marc878

You can't focus on two things at once so you'll effectively put the wayward wife on the back burner plus you'll learn a lot.

The 2 worst thing you can do in these situations is:

Offer reconciliation upfront without putting some thought into it. When you do it gives them total power of you. You have a brain. Start using it.

Jumping into marriage counciling.


----------



## Marc878

Know this too. You can't save or fix your marriage without your wife wanting it.

If she's dead set on leaving you'd be smart to let her go.

If not you'll wallow and waste a lot of time/life you'll never get back.

I can also tell out its not the end of your world. You may not see it now but if you can get strong and take control of you you'll come out of this a lot better no matter which way it goes.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> I would do exposure first. Lay out a plan and do it all at once. If it doesn't work so what. You aren't out much are you?


What would an exposure plan look like?


----------



## Marc878

Draw up a list of hers, yours and OM's family, friends that you want to target. Once you have the list check them off one by one. Tell the truth. Did you keep evidence? You may need to use that.

Look up affair exposure letters. I'd say something like I'd like to try and save the marriage but the affair has to stop before anything can be don.

Unless you just want to file for D then you don't need to do anything.


----------



## Marc878

Reading through No More Mr Nice Guy should be on your list too. Many swear by it.


----------



## 20yr

DrDetroit said:


> What are the types of things I should be doing? Talking to an atty, eating right and exercising, continuing IC, being with my boys, ... ?


You should consult with at least 3 attys and get to know the laws in your state. Get estimates from each one and ask what they think about mediation. Mediation works if both parties are cooperative and it can save time and money.

I would be wary of the atty who told you that mediation is a waste of time. Litigation means more billable hours for your atty. I would also be careful about emptying any accounts. While that may be allowed, that is an aggressive move that signals that you are gearing up for a fight. Typically, the advice is to at least open a separate account if you don't have one and transfer a small amount that can be used to pay legal fees. Even if you drain the joint account, it will all have to be accounted for and divided in the divorce.

It sounds like living in the same house is a strain. I would check to see if you are giving up any rights to the home if you move out for a while. Some separation may be healthy.

Definitely continue eating well and exercising and spending time with your boys. In IC, try to figure out what you want. Do you think this marriage can work or do you want out?


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> I am an idiot at this stuff. I'm trying to follow, but...I'll re-read. I don't expect answers from anyone here, so I not demanding that someone tell me something. Just feeling dumb right now.


It has nothing to do with being an an idiot.

It has everything to do with you failing to control your impulses.

Discipline is freedom.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Thanks for the comments. Really.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't paid for anything at divorce busters, just read the Divorce Remedy.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm slowly exposing to her friends and now her family.


This is exactly what Mem meant when he said you don't have a plan.

Exposure is used to save a marriage. When one is divorcing, exposure does nothing more than make divorce contentious.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Nucking Futs

Marc878 said:


> _Lots of good advice._


You're fighting the good fight, but I think it's a losing battle. :banghead:


----------



## 20yr

farsidejunky said:


> This is exactly what Mem meant when he said you don't have a plan.
> 
> Exposure is used to save a marriage. When one is divorcing, exposure does nothing more than make divorce contentious.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Agreed. You are at a crossroads here. You need to decide whether you are going to put your effort into reconciliation or divorce. Depending on that choice, you will take different steps. 

Take some time to think about a realistic outcome. Remember that certain actions, like exposure, cannot be undone and will have consequences.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> why she has to lose her friendship with the OM and one of her friends.
> 
> What a night.


Quit reading her private thoughts, that said, why are you still here?

I don’t care if it was a month ago, she wants him to remain. Do you need the multiple reconciliation thread failures, I have yet to see one work, when an alleged or confirmed OM remains in the marriage?


----------



## alte Dame

You sound very confused about how to proceed. This is understandable if you want to stay together but fear that divorce is inevitable. R and D have different routes and, as some have said, we would give you some different advice depending on which outcome is the targeted one.

What you* can do right now is do the things that you should do regardless of R or D*. This is basically taking care of yourself and strengthening your sense of self and confidence:

- Eat healthy food; drink plenty of water; don't drink alcohol.
- Get plenty of sleep; see a doctor for help if you can't sleep.
- Work out; established a disciplined workout regimen.
- Discipline yourself to focus 100% on your work when you are at work.
- Stay engaged with your children.
- Make plans with family and friends to socialize.
- Do the 180 re your WW:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/affairrecoveryforum/the-180-t10616.html

Follow the 180 like your life depends on it! Don't halfass it. Follow the steps until you have succeeded in detaching. At that point, following the steps will be natural for you.

Once you have refocused your life on yourself and your children, you can much more calmly and with greater clarity head into D or R. It sounds like she wants D, but one never knows, so just put that laser focus on the immutable in your life - you and your children. No matter what happens, you will have that, which, in my opinion, really is the prize.


----------



## DrDetroit

Some of this is so interesting to just sit back and observe. This morning, get up, get downstairs to start breakfast for the family. As I am in the kitchen making breakfast, she walks in and tells me that she's going to lunch with one of her teacher friends. I simply say ok. Instantly I sense that she's irritated, so I asked, do you have more to tell me and her response, well, I guess not, since we don't do that anymore. In other words, she was irritated because I wasn't asking her where she was going, why she was going, or any other question.

I can't imagine what she wants. She keeps telling me she wants to be separated and has said she wants to move forward with a divorce. Yet, she gets irritated if I am not following up on her comments or when she's telling what she's up to. Weird.

I'm doing the 180....


----------



## DrDetroit

alte Dame said:


> You sound very confused about how to proceed. This is understandable if you want to stay together but fear that divorce is inevitable. R and D have different routes and, as some have said, we would give you some different advice depending on which outcome is the targeted one.
> 
> What you* can do right now is do the things that you should do regardless of R or D*. This is basically taking care of yourself and strengthening your sense of self and confidence:
> 
> - Eat healthy food; drink plenty of water; don't drink alcohol.
> - Get plenty of sleep; see a doctor for help if you can't sleep.
> - Work out; established a disciplined workout regimen.
> - Discipline yourself to focus 100% on your work when you are at work.
> - Stay engaged with your children.
> - Make plans with family and friends to socialize.
> - Do the 180 re your WW:
> https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/affairrecoveryforum/the-180-t10616.html
> 
> Follow the 180 like your life depends on it! Don't halfass it. Follow the steps until you have succeeded in detaching. At that point, following the steps will be natural for you.
> 
> Once you have refocused your life on yourself and your children, you can much more calmly and with greater clarity head into D or R. It sounds like she wants D, but one never knows, so just put that laser focus on the immutable in your life - you and your children. No matter what happens, you will have that, which, in my opinion, really is the prize.


Thanks.

As the thread title indicates...I don't want this divorce. I want to work on the marriage, reconcile, and remain married to my wife. No indication from her side that she's interested in anything other than being separated, roommates, co-parents. I won't do that for very long...couple of months at most. Divorce feels inevitable, but until that moment, I will continue telling her that I want to work on the marriage.

The 180 is not intuitive to my codependent self, so I will be asking for help here as I try to go with it.

I'm contacting attorneys to get my self straight and understand what I am up against in a divorce.


----------



## anchorwatch

DrDetroit said:


> Some of this is so interesting to just sit back and observe. This morning, get up, get downstairs to start breakfast for the family. As I am in the kitchen making breakfast, she walks in and tells me that she's going to lunch with one of her teacher friends. I simply say ok. Instantly I sense that she's irritated, so I asked, do you have more to tell me and her response, well, I guess not, since we don't do that anymore. In other words, she was irritated because I wasn't asking her where she was going, why she was going, or any other question.
> 
> I can't imagine what she wants. She keeps telling me she wants to be separated and has said she wants to move forward with a divorce. Yet, she gets irritated if I am not following up on her comments or when she's telling what she's up to. Weird.
> 
> I'm doing the 180....


It's not weird at all. Think about it. Your response didn't allow her control of the narrative. 

Keep to the 180


Best


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Some of this is so interesting to just sit back and observe. This morning, get up, get downstairs to start breakfast for the family. As I am in the kitchen making breakfast, she walks in and tells me that she's going to lunch with one of her teacher friends. *I simply say ok. Instantly I sense that she's irritated, so I asked, do you have more to tell me and her response, well, I guess not, since we don't do that anymore. * In other words, she was irritated because I wasn't asking her where she was going, why she was going, or any other question.
> 
> Like most you talk the 180 but you aren't following/doing it. Why did you feel the need to ask her anything after you said OK?
> 
> I can't imagine what she wants. She keeps telling me she wants to be separated and has said she wants to move forward with a divorce. Yet, she gets irritated if I am not following up on her comments or when she's telling what she's up to. Weird.
> 
> I'm doing the 180....


Nope, you're still in the hopium mode of wanting her to get it.

Read No More Mr Nice Guy and the 180 again because you aren't getting it.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Some of this is so interesting to just sit back and observe. This morning, get up, get downstairs to start breakfast for the family. As I am in the kitchen making breakfast, she walks in and tells me that she's going to lunch with one of her teacher friends. I simply say ok. Instantly I sense that she's irritated, so I asked, do you have more to tell me and her response, well, I guess not, since we don't do that anymore. In other words, she was irritated because I wasn't asking her where she was going, why she was going, or any other question.
> 
> I can't imagine what she wants. She keeps telling me she wants to be separated and has said she wants to move forward with a divorce. Yet, she gets irritated if I am not following up on her comments or when she's telling what she's up to. Weird.
> 
> I'm doing the 180....


She's f'n with your mind, she sure is shrewd and is trying to suck you in..... Don't be the frog in the pot.


----------



## Marc878

Don't waffle on targeted exposure if you're trying to save this.

You'll find the truth fixes a lot of things.

You stay out of it after and let them deal with it.

Pop some corn sit back and watch. Stop talking it gets you nothing. Only your actions count.


----------



## MEM2020

DrDetroit said:


> Thanks for the comments. Really.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't paid for anything at divorce busters, just read the Divorce Remedy.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm slowly exposing to her friends and now her family.


Except exposure only helps of TWO things are true:
- Your marriage actually had a strong foundation of love and respect before your wife began her affair 
- Your friends and family believe that YOU are a high quality partner. 

Exposure in this type situation is simply vandalism. At best a majority of people you expose her to will conclude that you two are both low quality partners. 

At worst, your wife will come to hate you so deeply that your ability to co parent will be compromised. 



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## honcho

DrDetroit said:


> Some of this is so interesting to just sit back and observe. This morning, get up, get downstairs to start breakfast for the family. As I am in the kitchen making breakfast, she walks in and tells me that she's going to lunch with one of her teacher friends. I simply say ok. Instantly I sense that she's irritated, so I asked, do you have more to tell me and her response, well, I guess not, since we don't do that anymore. In other words, she was irritated because I wasn't asking her where she was going, why she was going, or any other question.
> 
> I can't imagine what she wants. She keeps telling me she wants to be separated and has said she wants to move forward with a divorce. Yet, she gets irritated if I am not following up on her comments or when she's telling what she's up to. Weird.
> 
> I'm doing the 180....


She wants attention just like a child at times. You should have just left it a try "ok" and not followed up at all. Yes, she would stew about it but that's her problem. So far thru most of this you've been in react mode to her whims.


----------



## Marc878

If it were me id load up the kids and take them out to do some fun stuff while she's gone. No need for any contact just go out and spend time with the kids.

Get out of the habit of jumping through hoops and responding to every text. I would not take any phone calls from her. Let it go to voicemail. If it's kid related you can respond by text. You'll find if you properly analyze like you should 90%+ should be ignored.

Put this in perspective. She's dumping you for her OM why would you keep kissing her ass? That's what doormats do.


----------



## notmyjamie

DrDetroit said:


> Some of this is so interesting to just sit back and observe. This morning, get up, get downstairs to start breakfast for the family. As I am in the kitchen making breakfast, she walks in and tells me that she's going to lunch with one of her teacher friends. I simply say ok. Instantly I sense that she's irritated, so I asked, do you have more to tell me and her response, well, I guess not, since we don't do that anymore. In other words, she was irritated because I wasn't asking her where she was going, why she was going, or any other question.
> 
> I can't imagine what she wants. She keeps telling me she wants to be separated and has said she wants to move forward with a divorce. Yet, she gets irritated if I am not following up on her comments or when she's telling what she's up to. Weird.
> 
> I'm doing the 180....


I would have followed it up with "no, we're not, by YOUR choice remember?" and walked away. Then went out and had a great day with my kids.


----------



## MEM2020

farsidejunky said:


> This is exactly what Mem meant when he said you don't have a plan.
> 
> Exposure is used to save a marriage. When one is divorcing, exposure does nothing more than make divorce contentious.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Far,

The proxy warriors of TAM LOVE disclosure. They LOVE IT. Especially MASS disclosure. 

And they most ecstatically and enthusiastically LOVE surprise mass disclosures. 

The more mayhem the better. After all, its PROXY warfare. When the children become, collateral damage - well - to the proxy fighter - its all just a bunch of pixels on a screen...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

MEM2020 said:


> Far,
> 
> The proxy warriors of TAM LOVE disclosure. They LOVE IT. Especially MASS disclosure.
> 
> And they most ecstatically and enthusiastically LOVE surprise mass disclosures.
> 
> The more mayhem the better. After all, its PROXY warfare. When the children become, collateral damage - well - to the proxy fighter - its all just a bunch of pixels on a screen...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Nope, exposure done correctly and specifically targeted is probably your best way to try and end the affair. Until that happens zero work occurs on the marriage.

I'm not in favor of the low class Nuclear Exposure.

I've never seen where helping hide an affair gets you much unless its leverage to divorce.


----------



## Marc878

MEM2020 said:


> Except exposure only helps of TWO things are true:
> - Your marriage actually had a strong foundation of love and respect before your wife began her affair
> - Your friends and family believe that YOU are a high quality partner.
> 
> Exposure in this type situation is simply vandalism. At best a majority of people you expose her to will conclude that you two are both low quality partners.
> 
> I dissagree. The truth told in the correct way and format is about all you've got in these situations
> 
> At worst, your wife will come to hate you so deeply that your ability to co parent will be compromised.
> 
> Well from what OP has posted she hates him now so what's gonna change?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Theres this perception that since you have kids you must stay in contract, talk, etc.

Not really. It depends on the situation. I know three of which two have younger kids. The crappy affects of infidelity made a lot of contact impossible so they chose the parallel parenting, grey rock method. It allows the betrayed spouse to move on faster without being 
held back by constantly being in the mess. With limited contact there are les conflicts. It takes awhile to adjust but after a period of time it normalizes.


----------



## honcho

Marc878 said:


> If it were me id load up the kids and take them out to do some fun stuff while she's gone. No need for any contact just go out and spend time with the kids.
> 
> Get out of the habit of jumping through hoops and responding to every text. I would not take any phone calls from her. Let it go to voicemail. If it's kid related you can respond by text. *You'll find if you properly analyze like you should 90%+ should be ignored.*
> 
> Put this in perspective. She's dumping you for her OM why would you keep kissing her ass? That's what doormats do.


This! In the early stages it hard to resist answering but if you allow yourself some time you realize a bug chunk of it is either nonessential or not productive at all and can be ignored. 
She plays you in many of these exchanges anyway, it starts off one way then she leads you down a different path as you start taking the bait.


----------



## anchorwatch

Will you expose your abominable behavior too? 

Exposure to those primarily involved has been done. 

Further exposure is of no benefit. It's petty. Is that how you see yourself? 

Think about it. What is it you're trying to accomplish? 

You only control you! 

Start thinking... 180


----------



## DrDetroit

MEM2020 said:


> Except exposure only helps of TWO things are true:
> - Your marriage actually had a strong foundation of love and respect before your wife began her affair
> - Your friends and family believe that YOU are a high quality partner.
> 
> Exposure in this type situation is simply vandalism. At best a majority of people you expose her to will conclude that you two are both low quality partners.
> 
> At worst, your wife will come to hate you so deeply that your ability to co parent will be compromised.


Marriage didn't have a strong foundation of love and respect before she "developed feelings" for the OM...kinda explains, in part, how the affair happened.

Some friends of hers and her family do consider me a quality partner.

I waffle between she's simply done and her contact with the OM is quite irrelevant to our situation on one hand and on the other hand that she's still foggy holding out hope that the OM's marriage implodes and he'll rescue her. I think the first is far more likely, but I don't frigging know.

I want to expose because I have hope that this can be reconciled and think that exposure will result in her friends and family exerting some influence (though the 180 says not to engage with her friends and family) to quit the OM and focus on her marriage.

Interesting fun fact...she was diagnosed with ADD in early August and she believes that she's had it for most of her life. When she talked to her mom about it her mom's response was, well, after you work on your ADD you can focus on fixing your marriage. Lols.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> Nope, exposure done correctly and specifically targeted is probably your best way to try and end the affair. Until that happens zero work occurs on the marriage.
> 
> I'm not in favor of the low class Nuclear Exposure.
> 
> I've never seen where helping hide an affair gets you much unless its leverage to divorce.


Help me understand the difference between exposure done correctly and low class nuke exposure. I'm genuinely interested.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Help me understand the difference between exposure done correctly and low class nuke exposure. I'm genuinely interested.


Correct exposure is limited to those who can help break the affair. It should also be noted that you're asking them to help you save your marriage by trying to end the affair. An appeal for help. 

Low class nuclear exposure example would be exposing to anyone and everyone by posting on Facebook, etc. IMO it would reflect worse on the exposer than the one involved in the affair. Not a place you'd want to put yourself.

There are many opinions for and against. Not really a right or wrong answer.

*If it were me I'd try and think long term. Upfront most just want them back without putting any effort or though in what you'd get back. The problem is infidelity is a lifelong gift. Never fully goes away. Can you live with that? Upfront I don't think most really know.*

The other thing is would you just be facing a repeat or false Reconcilliation later? It happens with to much regularity from what I've seen.

True R is a 2-5 year ordeal if BOTH are committed. Even then there are no guarantees.


----------



## Marc878

Keep in mind the reason you need to think this whole thing through thoroughly is your apt to change over time. Upfront that's hard to see.

Some can R successfully while others seem to get buyers remourse later on. If that even becomes an option.

You can tie up a lot of time/life in these things that you'll never get back.

Stay away from the mistake of projection. I love her so she must love me too, thing. Right now you are not even an afterthought. Affairs trump everything. Marriage, spouse and family. That may ir may not change.

The ones who get strong, stay there come out best in these things no matter which way it goes.

If you don't take control of yourself you will just stay where you are longer.

Don't try the manipulation thing. That'll never last long term anyway. Take yourself out of the equation and start going your own way.


----------



## MEM2020

The post below is very good in that, the tone and goals are both good. 

As to exposure itself: While I’m not keen on it, I do understand the rationale - and accept that it can work. That said, it is a high risk strategy. 

And the more people you expose the greater the risk that you end up hating each other. And THAT matters because there are plenty of studies showing a strong correlation between post divorce parental hostility, and long term harm to children. 





Marc878 said:


> Correct exposure is limited to those who can help break the affair. It should also be noted that you're asking them to help you save your marriage by trying to end the affair. An appeal for help.
> 
> Low class nuclear exposure example would be exposing to anyone and everyone by posting on Facebook, etc. IMO it would reflect worse on the exposer than the one involved in the affair. Not a place you'd want to put yourself.
> 
> There are many opinions for and against. Not really a right or wrong answer.
> 
> *If it were me I'd try and think long term. Upfront most just want them back without putting any effort or though in what you'd get back. The problem is infidelity is a lifelong gift. Never fully goes away. Can you live with that? Upfront I don't think most really know.*
> 
> The other thing is would you just be facing a repeat or false Reconcilliation later? It happens with to much regularity from what I've seen.
> 
> True R is a 2-5 year ordeal if BOTH are committed. Even then there are no guarantees.


----------



## minimalME

I don't understand exposure as an aid to reconciliation, and I agree with what MEM's written.

Each person has to know their spouse.

My ex-husband tried a little of this (he made vague comments, so I have no idea who he told or what he said), and it only made me more resolute. 

I'd never, _ever_ reconcile with someone who went around bad-mouthing me, and I'm completely clueless as to how it helps.




MEM2020 said:


> As to exposure itself: While I’m not keen on it, I do understand the rationale - and accept that it can work. That said, it is a high risk strategy.
> 
> And the more people you expose the greater the risk that you end up hating each other. And THAT matters because there are plenty of studies showing a strong correlation between post divorce parental hostility, and long term harm to children.


----------



## Tilted 1

Marc878 said:


> Draw up a list of hers, yours and OM's family, friends that you want to target. Once you have the list check them off one by one. Tell the truth. Did you keep evidence? You may need to use that.
> 
> Look up affair exposure letters. I'd say something like I'd like to try and save the marriage but the affair has to stop before anything can be don.
> 
> Unless you just want to file for D then you don't need to do anything.


If DrD, doesnt expose to everyone the she rewrites history, and cast him as the bad guy. Do everyone !


----------



## Tilted 1

Do everyone if, her she has put out herself as, the victim.


----------



## MEM2020

Tilted,
Here’s the reason it’s called: Mutually assured destruction (MAD)

She has a very big catalog containing all HIS bad behavior. Some of that is verifiable by the kids, other mishaps were witnessed by third parties other than the children. 

IF he trashes her, the odds of a counter strike are very high. 

Whenever M2 and I have discussed divorce, we BOTH agree that for ANY third party conversation - we stick with: irreconcilable differences 






Tilted 1 said:


> If DrD, doesnt expose to everyone the she rewrites history, and cast him as the bad guy. Do everyone !


----------



## Marc878

Everyone has their own opinion but at the end of the day there is no one size fits all.

Not every marriage can or should be saved. 

Trying to determine that is the bigger question.


----------



## Tilted 1

MEM2020 said:


> Tilted,
> Here’s the reason it’s called: Mutually assured destruction (MAD)
> 
> She has a very big catalog containing all HIS bad behavior. Some of that is verifiable by the kids, other mishaps were witnessed by third parties other than the children.
> 
> IF he trashes her, the odds of a counter strike are very high.
> 
> Whenever M2 and I have discussed divorce, we BOTH agree that for ANY third party conversation - we stick with it: irreconcilable differences


Sadly, l truly think only one wants to be with the other,. And that she will do everything, as she has done to please herself, inspite of DrD's desire. I know some of us carries the bad, and people can change their temperament. 

I get what you are saying but she has taken there relationship too far south and crossed too many rivers that seemingly wash away all of DrD's good points. Too many times even l ache and hurt for those spouses who end up with the same result in the end. I just think if he abides with his new growth traits she would see him in a different way. I for my own selfish reasons want the betrayed spouse to win the battle and the war. Yet sometimes it is something that cannot be done. I am accepting of all the advice of others and wish DrD to ues what is best for him. 

It as if l wish l could be a fly on the wall, and be the betrayed's spouse best friend. I know what it is to carry the burdens all by yourself. As in times of war ( as l have done) but what drives me in this so deeply is the same as the brotherhood in war as we each depend so desperately of one another sometimes can skew's my involvement with those who's life is on the line per se. My motives seek only the best for those. and that DrD uses what he knows is best. 

God, truly knows what each of us can bear and carry. But sometimes you have to burn the forest to see the cliff below on the other side of it.

Tilted


----------



## MEM2020

That’s a very honest post. 




Tilted 1 said:


> Sadly, l truly think only one wants to be with the other,. And that she will do everything, as she has done to please herself, inspite of DrD's desire. I know some of us carries the bad, and people can change their temperament.
> 
> I get what you are saying but she has taken there relationship too far south and crossed too many rivers that seemingly wash away all of DrD's good points. Too many times even l ache and hurt for those spouses who end up with the same result in the end. I just think if he abides with his new growth traits she would see him in a different way. I for my own selfish reasons want the betrayed spouse to win the battle and the war. Yet sometimes it is something that cannot be done. I am accepting of all the advice of others and wish DrD to ues what is best for him.
> 
> It as if l wish l could be a fly on the wall, and be the betrayed's spouse best friend. I know what it is to carry the burdens all by yourself. As in times of war ( as l have done) but what drives me in this so deeply is the same as the brotherhood in war as we each depend so desperately of one another sometimes can skew's my involvement with those who's life is on the line per se. My motives seek only the best for those. and that DrD uses what he knows is best.
> 
> God, truly knows what each of us can bear and carry. But sometimes you have to burn the forest to see the cliff below on the other side of it.
> 
> Tilted


----------



## Marc878

From what I see in most of these cases (I know 3 personally) is a big ole marital history rewrite (not gender specific) to justify unjustifiable actions.

I think most betrayed spouses fall for this thinking that if its their fault they can somehow fix it.

No ones perfect and I'm sure some are worse than others but it's a pretty standard occurring theme.


----------



## Affaircare

I can give an example of how/why exposure can help a marriage reconcile. This is a real life example from right her on TAM many years ago. 

W was working in a doctor's office and had an affair with a patient, W thought highly of the doc for whom she worked, but she conducted her affair in the office or outside in the parking lot. H found out about it (suspected...dug...found proof). The day H got the proof, he lost his mind (as is reasonable after a betrayal of this level), and he screamed at his W for most of the night. He came here to TAM to ask what he should do, and even though he was told to expose, he argued and said he didn't want to air their dirty laundry...it was between him and her...he would protect the kids from it, etc. So he didn't tell a soul: his own family or friends or coworkers, or her family or friends or coworkers. 

Meanwhile, W was rewriting marital history left and right to everyone who would listen. She told her famiy he was controling (yeah--because he wanted her to stop seeing her Affair Partner)! She told his famiy he would yell at her (yeah--because she was committing adultery)! She told all their friends that he raged at her all night. She told the kids that daddy made her cry. You get the picture. 

The KICKER was that she went to the doctor and asked for his advice. She told the doc that her husband kept her up ALL NIGHT screaming at her, and she didn't know what she should do. Naturally, doc said that screaming all night was abuse, and she should leave him. FINALLY H heard that and began to wake up. He went and spoke to the doc himself, man-to-man, and at first the doc tried to tell him what a **** he was for abusing his wife, and then H said, "Did she tell you she was having an affair and that the night I yelled at her was the night I found proof?" Well...no! "Did she tell you that she is having an affair with a patient here?" Nooo!! "Did she tell you that she conducted her affair here in this office or in the parking lot?" NOOOOO!!!

The idea of exposure is to do it just like it says in Matthew 18:15-17. First you go straight to your spouse, call it adultery and tell them what they are doing is wrong and ask that they stop of their own accord. If they don't, you take two or three people whom they respect, who are friends of the marriage, who will encourage them to stop of their own accord. Usually these two or three people might be their mom and dad, a pastor, a mentor...that kind of person. If they still don't stop, it says "tell the whole church" but I don't believe that means you stand up at announcements and say your spouse is cheating. I think that means that you have done your best to deal with it privately and they have been stubborn so it's okay to tell your family, her family, your mutual neighbors and friends, and your co-workers and her co-workers. Again, this isn't an announcement on facebook, but rather targeted to people who are going to be affected if their is a divorce. 

You tell your family because they will be losing half time with the grandkids/niece or nephew and you will need them for support. You tell her family because they will be losing half time with the grandkids/niece or nephew and in hopes that they will tell her to do the right thing and end her affair. Also, you tell families so that when the loyal one is portraited poorly they don't believe the lies. You tell mutual neighbors and friends because they will likely be affected and sucked into this if there is a divorce--let them know why the kids might be coming over more and why you don't want to be invited to a BBQ with your spouse's AP. You tell co-workers, yours and hers, because your own productivity is going to fall while you suffer through adultery, and if they know why--they'll support you. If they don't know why, you may very well get fired. You tell hers because they adulterers may be using business resources to conduct their affair. The company could be vulnerable for law suits for sexual misconduct, hostile work environment, etc. and they need to be able to take corrective measures. 

Finally, you tell the AP's spouse. This is because as much as your spouse is cheating on you, their spouse is also cheating on them. Nothing stops an affair cold like a) shining a light on it, and b) a super mad AP's spouse putting their foot down and screaming that they stop!

ETA: In the example above, the doc fired the W and blew up the affair. The doc asked W why she didn't tell him she was cheating...and with a patient on his premises, and she said (no kidding, I couldn't make this up): "I didn't think it was relevant. It's my private life." :banghead:


----------



## VFW

The STBX is doing a couple of things for control. First the poor poor pitiful me speech while picking up the car and the you don't care anymore speech at breakfast are all designed to gain control. I get the impression that she is an attention addict and has been for most of the relationship, which you fed into for a majority of the time. You need to get the attorney and start the proceedings so that you get the upper hand on the process and get your fair share. Since it is a no fault state, things should be pretty straightforward for the most part. Most of the time with domestic relations, the legal secretaries do most of the paper work and the attorneys do the litigation part. Unless there is lots of assets at stake, they aren't going to be very passionate about the case, as they don't have the emotional attachment that you have to the proceedings. I think that your first priority isn't the divorce, but the anger management and your relationship to your sons. Additionally, you don't want him to learn negative behaviors, like you said were passed on to you. Personally, I think that I would continue with the 180 process. She needs to know that there are consequences to her actions. She wants to eat her cake and have it too, which leads back to the control issue that I mentioned earlier. I would do things with just the boys, this is to help them transition to the new normal to come after the divorce. She won't like it, but everything is not about her, it is now what is best for the boys.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

DrDetroit said:


> Help me understand the difference between exposure done correctly and low class nuke exposure. I'm genuinely interested.


Correctly would be to parents, her and your siblings and close friends. Nuclear would be what I did, that is exposing to her siblings, parents,my siblings, all of our friends, and posting on Facebook my wife had cheated and with whom she had cheated. Changed my status to single. Looking back, I wish I had not gone the Facebook route, it it is what it is. I am going on four years of R.


----------



## ConanHub

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Correctly would be to parents, her and your siblings and close friends. Nuclear would be what I did, that is exposing to her siblings, parents,my siblings, all of our friends, and posting on Facebook my wife had cheated and with whom she had cheated. Changed my status to single. Looking back, I wish I had not gone the Facebook route, it it is what it is. I am going on four years of R.


Given the circumstances, I fully backed your play. It definitely gave your wife a great opportunity to accept her humility and I believe your actions directly allowed her counteractions that proved her heart, tho sullied, was ultimately for you without question.

Your play laid the foundation for her reconciliation to you.

I do not see anything resembling the commitment your wife displayed in evidence in this case.


----------



## DrDetroit

Interesting two days. Not doing a lot of interacting with my wife. She went running, alone, yesterday morning while I took my kids to the youngest boys' elementary school for a clean up project and spent a few hours there. Wife was supposed to join us, but she was up early applying for a new job, and went a for a run a little late and told us she wouldn't be joining. All get home about same time and wife gets ready for her lunch with a girl friend to talk about online teaching and, per the usual now, didn't say bye to me, just the kids.

I took my boys to an air show (not before my youngest throws a tantrum about going, but then when we get there is all happy we went, lols) for a few hours and get some food on the way home. Get home, wife is home, and I quickly shower and change to go out for the evening. Boys go to a friend's house and I leave without saying bye to her and her not even looking at me (that I could see).

Get up this morning, shower, and go to church by myself (unusual, I haven't been to church in years). Said good morning to the boys and asked the wife for the checkbook. She asked why and I just started talking to my youngest about picking up his bike. Didn't tell her where I was going, just went.

Come home from church and wife asks what she expect from the check to hit the account and I tell her some money for church. Conversation about installing Disney Circle to help control our boys internet use and a list for shopping.

Twice this morning I take a look at a journal she's writing in and see what looks like a letter to me explaining, again, that she's ready to "dissolve" the marriage and thinking about the when, for example, wait til summer so the boys have the summer to adjust. Second look I see earlier writing where in she writes that I went out Friday night and that she doesn't really care. And then read that she's noticed that I don't I love you to her anymore and that's a signal of the farce that the marriage is.

I found out more about what was happening Friday night with her panic attack, although I learned it from an undeleted email to the OM. In it she tells him that Friday evening was challenging and that when I made a comment while picking up her car that applying for a full time non-school job would mean giving up her summers (these have been important as she's been a sahm until 3 years ago when she started working in the classroom as a teacher's asst and we could get our boys back to our home state to visit family each summer) that my comment lit a "fire in her soul". She told him that she's so angry and resentful that she has to give up being a sahm to the boys in the summer and that she can work part time and support herself or support the boys. She further told him that all she wanted to be was a good mom and connected to her kids. And then tells him that when she went to bed she was shaking and not breathing right thinking she was having a panic attack. 

She wrote this to him Saturday morning it appears after her run, so it means that she's not running with him any longer.

He responded to her saying thanks for sharing and that he gets panic attacks sometimes and he was glad that she could go for a run. Then he asked her how far she ran.


----------



## Marc878

Still neck deep with other man. Affairs trump everything. Marriage, spouse and family.

If it were me I'd be driving the D train full steam ahead.


----------



## Tilted 1

Don't be surprised if she get the hot potato drop, she loading him up so if and when they get together she can be a SAHM and copiously connect with her kids. LOL you have everything to gain and she is just digging a deeper hole. DrD, your going to be alright. He a sleaz and she goes with baggage. I have to say this again DrD YOUR GOING TO BE FINE!!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Dr Detroit. Advice, I am going to go ”Parris Island” on you as I have a couple of other posters. Pretend I am R Lee Ermy(however I am a much better looking marine lol). Follow my orders. Respond in your mind/shout it out with “Yes Sgt. NLLH”!
I am ordering you as follows:

1- Follow the 180. No more pain shopping by reading her journal. 

2- Get yourself into IC ASAP.

3- No booze. It only amplifies your hurt, and when you sober up the issue at hand is still there.

4- Hit the gym. Become a lean mean dating machine. 

5- Detach from her.NOW!

6- Do not speak to her unless it is about kids. 

7- Get a new wardrobe, haircut, and reinvent yourself

8- Look forward do not look back.The past is the past and it cannot be changed. 

9- Chalk your bad experiences up as learning experiences. Do not repeat them

10- Most important....be the best dad you can be.

Carry on! Dismissed!

Ps: when you are going through hell.....keep on going!


----------



## bandit.45

Do what NLLH says. The whole idea of the 180 is to detach and become emotionally independent of her, so that when the train that is her life careens off the side of the trellis, you will be way out of the debris field where it's safe. You cannot detach when you are looking at her diary. 

F her, F the OM and F the both of them. You need to retrain your brain to consider her your ex-wife now, before the divorce. It's all about changing your mental paradigm for yourself. 

Unless it has something to do with the kids, the household or the divorce, you are under no obligation to tell her where you are going or what you are doing in your spare time. That knowledge is a privilege that a wife has. She isn't your wife anymore. You need to make her understand this: that as of today the marriage as she has known it is over. No more freebies, no more spousal privileges. The ONLY things you do for her will be those things that directly involve the children or the running of the household. 

If she breaks down on the highway by herself one day and calls you for a ride... tell her tough titty. She can call her OM to come pick her up. 

If she wants to complain and moan to you about her aches and pains, walk out of the room... that's none of your concern anymore. Tell her to complain to her OM. 

And so on....


----------



## alte Dame

bandit.45 said:


> F her, F the OM and F the both of them.


Exactly. That's your mantra.


----------



## farsidejunky

Failure to control your impulses has led to most of her laundry list of complaints about you...and will continue to stunt your ability to heal if you do not get them under control.


----------



## Tasorundo

@DrDetroit How are things goin?


----------



## DrDetroit

bandit.45 said:


> Do what NLLH says. The whole idea of the 180 is to detach and become emotionally independent of her, so that when the train that is her life careens off the side of the trellis, you will be way out of the debris field where it's safe. You cannot detach when you are looking at her diary.
> 
> F her, F the OM and F the both of them. You need to retrain your brain to consider her your ex-wife now, before the divorce. It's all about changing your mental paradigm for yourself.
> 
> Unless it has something to do with the kids, the household or the divorce, you are under no obligation to tell her where you are going or what you are doing in your spare time. That knowledge is a privilege that a wife has. She isn't your wife anymore. You need to make her understand this: that as of today the marriage as she has known it is over. No more freebies, no more spousal privileges. The ONLY things you do for her will be those things that directly involve the children or the running of the household.
> 
> If she breaks down on the highway by herself one day and calls you for a ride... tell her tough titty. She can call her OM to come pick her up.
> 
> If she wants to complain and moan to you about her aches and pains, walk out of the room... that's none of your concern anymore. Tell her to complain to her OM.
> 
> And so on....


I'm trying. She has definitely noticed the detaching and I explicitly told her this evening that I was detaching (see my next post for more info).


----------



## DrDetroit

Tasorundo said:


> @DrDetroit How are things goin?


It's the pendulum, man. Moment to moment it just swings back and forth.

Tonight was simply maddening, though. Had my car at the auto shop that needed to be picked up and she offers to give me a ride...cool. On the way over, I get the, well, we have a moment without the kids and I'd like to talk about mediation. She then goes down the road of starting mediation now so that by next summer we can dissolve the marriage and the kids don't have to adjust while they're in school. According to her, we need to keep the kids interests and their stability in mind. I exercised some restraint and didn't tell her that she could have kept that in mind before screwing around with the OM.

I basically just let her talk and didn't reply. She kept on trying to persuade me that mediation was the best approach so that we could avoid the expense of attorneys and avoid a bitter, drawn out divorce fight...unless, she says, that is what I want.

I reiterated, again, that I want neither mediation or a divorce. That I'm not going to divorce her right now and would prefer remaining married. So she took me down the road asking why I would want this marriage (this being our crappy marriage where I had anger problems and would isolate and withdraw). I explained I wanted a different marriage and she banged me with, well, why, why do you want to stay married to me. She further went to say that, well, thats right, you wouldn't want to divorce me because I haven't abused you for years as you did to me (she characterizes my anger problems and withdrawing as forms of abuse). I suggest that we both have unresolved resentment and have both done some ****ty things.

Gotta go snuggle my youngest, brb.

Continued...

Here's the real kicker...As she was talking about wanting to move on with mediation, she said that she wanted a chance to be happy with someone who wants her as a companion. I took a few moments and let her go on before telling her that I want to be and would be that companion. She smirked and sniffed and told me that that's not what I have been showing her recently because while she's been in crisis mode about her job, finding a new job and having panic attacks, I haven't been a kind friend. When I told her that I know her job has been ****ty and she responded that yeah, I knew, but that I wasn't doing anything about it. I finally had it at that moment. I told her that she's the one who wants to be separated, she's the one who keeps pushing and pushing to divorce and that for my well-being I was detaching to protect myself. Of course, her reply now is well, why wait to divorce, why not end it since we're both detaching. **** her. That was bull****, man.

Somewhere in this conversation she asked if I wanted her to find a mediator or if we should find one together. I told her that this is her thing and if she wants to pursue then move and at some point I'll have to become a participant, until then, I'm not initiating a divorce. 

For our entire relationship I was the giving her the pep talks, encouraging her, supporting her and she was grateful for that. Now, because I am 180'ing her she's complaining that I'm not someone she can ask for help or for support since I'm detaching. Well, tough ****, this is what separation looks like.

It's funny, though, her implication being that recently I haven't been showing her that I care or would be a companion because I haven't been offering her a shoulder to cry on or coddling her as she's sitting at the dining room table crying while my boys and I are playing a game in the living room or offering her support when she's having a panic attack after spending all evening crying in front of me and boys. I'm not going to emotionally invest myself just so she can turn it on me the next day with another demand that I start divorce proceedings and telling that she wants to move forward with dissolving the marriage.

Ah, ****, man...I'm seeing a new attorney on Thursday afternoon. I've actually been relishing the idea of serving my wife divorce papers within the next month while she's talking about a 9 month timeline to "dissolve" the marriage via mediation.


----------



## Marc878

Well, so much for the 180 and no contact. Like a lot you talk about 180 but don't do it. You haven't learned much. Talk won't get you a thing while she's neck deep in the affair. Affairs trump all, nothing else matters. 

You still just don't get it.


----------



## Marc878

Your only good response is "as long as you're still In the affair with OM we have nothing to discuss".


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> Well, so much for the 180 and no contact. Like a lot you talk about 180 but don't do it. You haven't learned much. Talk won't get you a thing while she's neck deep in the affair. Affairs trump all, nothing else matters.
> 
> You still just don't get it.


Then help me out. What am I missing? I think I am 180'ing by only talking about the kids or acknowledging that she has said something to me. Tonight has been the most words exchanged in 10 days. 

When she wants to talk about moving forward with mediation or divorce, then what do I say? 

When she makes a comment about the boys or a school activity or her mom, what do I say, nothing?

I guess I'm not getting it because I thought 180'ing was not doing the same crap I used to do while keeping talk to just formalities about the kids, money, etc.

What's weird, though, is that even though I am, I guess, half-assing the 180, she's interpreting that as me not caring about her, me not demonstrating that I want her as a companion.


----------



## Marc878

Limit any discussion to kids or business only. 

Look she's neck deep in an affair there's nothing you can do that she isn't going to complain about. Nothing. If you were kissing her ass shed complain about you being needy/clingy.

You are the bad guy. In her eyes you have to be to justify her actions. That's how it usually works. You can't win with her connected to OM


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> Limit any discussion to kids or business only.
> 
> Look she's neck deep in an affair there's nothing you can do that she isn't going to complain about. Nothing. If you were kissing her ass shed complain about you being needy/clingy.
> 
> You are the bad guy. In her eyes you have to be to justify her actions. That's how it usually works. You can't win with her connected to OM


Thank you...

So when she wants to talk about getting a mediator, what do I say?


----------



## Marc878

Learn to ignore.

Look you are your own person no one can make you do a thing.

Much like you can't make her stop the affair can you? Same thing.

You don't find a way to break the affair nothing change.

Talk = zero when you're dealing with an affair.


----------



## Marc878

That's why she wanted to give you a ride. You immediately jumped up and had a hopium high. See how that turned out?


----------



## Marc878

You can play the "pick me dance", try nicing her back, talk all
day long and it'll just work against you. It will just lower your status while making OM look stronger/better.

Limited/targeted exposure is all you've got. IMO.

You're still affraid it'll push her away but she's already gone.

Affair doesn't end you have nothing to work with.

It may not work but you don't have a lot to lose.

Oh wait she may end up hating you? What about you? Do you not count at all? What about you ending up hating her ass?

There are always two sides to a story isn't there?


----------



## Marc878

Stop trying to compete with a fantasy you can't win that. Go your own way.

Stop looking around for an easy way out or magic to fix this. There aren't any.

R takes 2-5 years and there are no guarantees even with a remoursefull spouse which you currently don't even have.


----------



## Marc878

Let's say this goes to divorce. Your best path in that case would be parallel parenting with strict limited contact unless you want to spend time together watching her and OM holding hands and playing paddy cake.

Have dinner together and play best friends while her and OM sit together?

Watch the kids have Christmas together with OM in the mix?

I wouldn't be to concerned about her feelings because if it's D you (unless you're a total doormat) aren't going to want to be around her and her boyfriend together.

Get the picture a little better now?


----------



## Marc878

I've seen this more than I care to. After they've blow up the family and marriage they come back wanting to be friends. 

Definition of friend is loyal, honest and trustworthy. 

Don't be surprised if she goes on about the OM is a great guy you'd really like him. You all should shake hands and play golf together. We can have family dinners, etc. 

That is her fantasy. How do you like it?


----------



## Marc878

You don't wake up to reality you'll just wallow in this longer than you need to.


----------



## Marc878

Start using your head for a change. Like a lot you've got yourself stuck in the "I just want her back" mode.

You jump and react without putting any thought into it. Your current state of mind will not help you.

Take some time and think.


----------



## Chaparral

The 180 does NOT say do not talk to your wife. It says to not initiate conversations. Only talk about the relationship that f she brings it up.

Otoh, if you do, defend yourself. Tell her cheating is far worse than you having anger issues which I assume is in the past. 

Responding to her however doesn’t mean you listen to her BS without setting her straight. 

She wants to cheat then dump you on her terms? F that. File and go for the throat. You will be lucky to end up with half and fifty fifty custody.

Google dadsdivorce.com


----------



## Lila

DrDetroit said:


> Thank you...
> 
> So when she wants to talk about getting a mediator, what do I say?


You say "yes, let's talk about a mediator", and then proceed with that discussion in a calm and logical manner.

I get that you are trying to pull out every stop but your wife has checked out of the marriage. She doesn't want to stay married and wants to divorce. At this point you should only be thinking about the equitable division of assets and debts, making the transition from a nuclear family to single parent family as seamlessly and drama free as possible for your children, and emotionally detaching from your wife That's it. 

Part of this process entails making the best financial decisions for your family moving forward. This means putting aside your anger, resentment, guilt, and hope with regards to your wife and marriage in order to raise your children in a positive environment where they feel loved and lack for nothing. Again, try your best to make the transition from one nuclear family to two single parent households as smooth as possible. Trust me on this. It'll be better for you and your children in the long run. 

The average cost of a contested divorce in the United States (where each partner gets a divorce attorney who then argues back and forth to get a settlement and parenting plan in place) is $15,000 EACH ($30,000 total). To be honest, that number sounds low. The couples I know who have gone the contested route have spent over $100,000 a piece.

The average cost of an uncontested divorce in the US (where the couple sits down, agrees to as much as they possibly can on their own, and then mediates whatever they can't agree on) is about $7,000 total. Mine was $1,750 total and we didn't require a mediator. 

I know this is not an easy process for you. It never is for the left behind spouse but you have to make the decision to move forward. At least do so logically.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Lila said:


> You say "yes, let's talk about a mediator", and then proceed with that discussion in a calm and logical manner.
> 
> I get that you are trying to pull out every stop but your wife has checked out of the marriage. She doesn't want to stay married and wants to divorce. At this point you should only be thinking about the equitable division of assets and debts, making the transition from a nuclear family to single parent family as seamlessly and drama free as possible for your children, and emotionally detaching from your wife That's it.
> 
> *Part of this process entails making the best financial decisions for your family moving forward.* This means putting aside your anger, resentment, guilt, and hope with regards to your wife and marriage in order to raise your children in a positive environment where they feel loved and lack for nothing. Again, try your best to make the transition from one nuclear family to two single parent households as smooth as possible. Trust me on this. It'll be better for you and your children in the long run.
> 
> The average cost of a contested divorce in the United States (where each partner gets a divorce attorney who then argues back and forth to get a settlement and parenting plan in place) is $15,000 EACH ($30,000 total). To be honest, that number sounds low. The couples I know who have gone the contested route have spent over $100,000 a piece.
> 
> The average cost of an uncontested divorce in the US (where the couple sits down, agrees to as much as they possibly can on their own, and then mediates whatever they can't agree on) is about $7,000 total. Mine was $1,750 total and we didn't require a mediator.
> 
> I know this is not an easy process for you. It never is for the left behind spouse but you have to make the decision to move forward. At least do so logically.


Note that "making the best financial decisions for your family moving forward." is you and your kids. Your wife is the adversary that's trying to manipulate your emotions to keep you off balance so you'll make the best financial decisions for _her_ family, which is her, om, and your kids. You are no longer part of her family in her mind, om has taken your place, so if she leaves you living in a cardboard box eating rice and beans and saving up to buy the occasional pack of ramen as a treat that has nothing to do with her or her family.


----------



## PreRaph

DrDetroit said:


> Thank you...
> 
> So when she wants to talk about getting a mediator, what do I say?


Why do you need a mediator? Quit telling her that you don't want a divorce. Just STOP IT. 

Tell her that you're filing for a divorce and that you plan to make it amiable and fair. Tell her you will only ask for a mediator if you think she's going to make unfair demands.

Then detach, will you? Do not tell her, SHOW HER that you are done with this marriage. Whatever she wants to do with her affair partner is no longer your business. Stop caring. It is time for you to focus on yourself and your children, for real. She is no longer your wife. She's gone. Let her go. Act accordingly.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Forget exposure. That only works if she thinks she is gonna run off with OM, or 'the love of her life', and 'live happily ever after'. That doesn't appear to be the case. Just another checked out wife afflicted by WAWS. Exposure while deserving, isn't gonna do a damn thing if you are hoping to win her back. You are just wasting time and energy on a lost cause. You need to be thinking about moving on, the sooner the better. She is messing around on you.

Get a divorce lawyer. Why does she want mediation? Can you guys not talk and figure it out yourselves? Are your incomes fairly similar, not too disparate? If you can do a no contest divorce, you will save a bunch of money and headaches. If she can't do that and gets greedy, then go nuclear.


----------



## Lila

Nucking Futs said:


> Note that "making the best financial decisions for your family moving forward." is you and your kids. Your wife is the adversary that's trying to manipulate your emotions to keep you off balance so you'll make the best financial decisions for _her_ family, which is her, om, and your kids. You are no longer part of her family in her mind, om has taken your place, so if she leaves you living in a cardboard box eating rice and beans and saving up to buy the occasional pack of ramen as a treat that has nothing to do with her or her family.


I disagree with you on this mostly because I experienced OP's almost exact situation (spouse asking for divorce only to find out they were having an affair) and took care to make sure that I was making the best decisions for myself as well as my ex spouse only because my son was going to be living with him 50% of the time. 

My goal for the divorce was simple - do what's best for our son. I could have exposed ex's affair; I could have taken ex to the cleaners; I could have made his life a living hell but at the end of the day I didn't want my son to get caught in the middle of a contentious divorce. And 14 months post separation, I am so happy I took the path I did. I didn't want my son spending 50% of his time in a trailer by the river eating ramen noodles with his dad. I wanted him to have a comparable lifestyle to what he had with me.

My son is genuinely happy. He's doing great in school. Has lots of friends. He didn't require any therapy. 

Ex is doing good. He's still dating his AP and they seem to doing good. We have a great cooperative co-parenting relationship which allows our son to experience the best each of us has to offer him without having to worry mom and dad are going to be at each other's throats. 

With the exception of my dating life, I am doing really, really good. No complaints here. 

I think if OP is going to go in to the divorce with the attitude that she's his nemesis, then there is no reason to go the mediation route. He might as well spend the $$$ to go contested divorce.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Lila said:


> Nucking Futs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Note that "making the best financial decisions for your family moving forward." is you and your kids. Your wife is the adversary that's trying to manipulate your emotions to keep you off balance so you'll make the best financial decisions for _her_ family, which is her, om, and your kids. You are no longer part of her family in her mind, om has taken your place, so if she leaves you living in a cardboard box eating rice and beans and saving up to buy the occasional pack of ramen as a treat that has nothing to do with her or her family.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with you on this mostly because I experienced OP's almost exact situation (spouse asking for divorce only to find out they were having an affair) and took care to make sure that I was making the best decisions for myself as well as my ex spouse only because my son was going to be living with him 50% of the time.
> 
> My goal for the divorce was simple - do what's best for our son. I could have exposed ex's affair; I could have taken ex to the cleaners; I could have made his life a living hell but at the end of the day I didn't want my son to get caught in the middle of a contentious divorce. And 14 months post separation, I am so happy I took the path I did. I didn't want my son spending 50% of his time in a trailer by the river eating ramen noodles with his dad. I wanted him to have a comparable lifestyle to what he had with me.
> 
> My son is genuinely happy. He's doing great in school. Has lots of friends. He didn't require any therapy.
> 
> Ex is doing good. He's still dating his AP and they seem to doing good. We have a great cooperative co-parenting relationship which allows our son to experience the best each of us has to offer him without having to worry mom and dad are going to be at each other's throats.
> 
> With the exception of my dating life, I am doing really, really good. No complaints here.
> 
> I think if OP is going to go in to the divorce with the attitude that she's his nemesis, then there is no reason to go the mediation route. He might as well spend the $$$ to go contested divorce.
Click to expand...

Yep, second this. Had a checked out cheating wife. Eight years down the drain with a daughter. I did a no contest divorce. Handled everything amicably by email under a week. Split eveything 50-50 including custody. Filed and was divorced the following month. People that go into divorce wanting everything often end up with nothing.

His wife wants out and apparently fast. The faster the better, that means she will hopefully be willing to compromise.


----------



## minimalME

My uncontested divorce was less than $5,000, and I even got a refund from the lawyer's office.

We did, however, end up in mediation a few years later about the house, which was like going through the divorce all over again.

Make sure you read _everything_ and get it sewn up tight the first time.



Lila said:


> The average cost of an uncontested divorce in the US (where the couple sits down, agrees to as much as they possibly can on their own, and then mediates whatever they can't agree on) is about $7,000 total. *Mine was $1,750 total and we didn't require a mediator.*


----------



## ButtPunch

I think I will add my two cents and here it is

First off, my heart breaks for you as I can feel the pain you are in from your writing.

I wish there was a magic wand to make your WW change.

It takes two people to make a marriage work and right now you don't have that. 

Your WW has completely checked out. She is done. 

I think exposure is a risky move and could cause a volatile divorce. I think the OM's wife
already knows and that's the most important part.

My recommendation is to take her up on her mediation offer and get the divorce rolling.

I understand you aren't ready emotionally to pull the plug due to what appears to me some codependency.

With that in mind, I think your best chance to win your wife back and get her to respect you again is to take away
the only thing keeping her around. $$$$$$$ I suggest you separate, move out, and let her pay her own way. 

Once she feels the burden of taking care of herself, and sees you just fine without her because you will be masterfully 
employing the 180 her respect for you may take a turn. 

You should get counseling for codependency during this separation and hopefully become strong enough to realize you 
don't need to tolerate being with someone who doesn't want to be with you. 

All the Best
BP


----------



## MEM2020

ButtPunch said:


> I think I will add my two cents and here it is
> 
> 
> 
> First off, my heart breaks for you as I can feel the pain you are in from your writing.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish there was a magic wand to make your WW change.
> 
> 
> 
> It takes two people to make a marriage work and right now you don't have that.
> 
> 
> 
> Your WW has completely checked out. She is done.
> 
> 
> 
> I think exposure is a risky move and could cause a volatile divorce. I think the OM's wife
> 
> already knows and that's the most important part.
> 
> 
> 
> My recommendation is to take her up on her mediation offer and get the divorce rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand you aren't ready emotionally to pull the plug due to what appears to me some codependency.
> 
> 
> 
> With that in mind, I think your best chance to win your wife back and get her to respect you again is to take away
> 
> the only thing keeping her around. $$$$$$$ I suggest you separate, move out, and let her pay her own way.
> 
> 
> 
> Once she feels the burden of taking care of herself, and sees you just fine without her because you will be masterfully
> 
> employing the 180 her respect for you may take a turn.
> 
> 
> 
> You should get counseling for codependency during this separation and hopefully become strong enough to realize you
> 
> don't need to tolerate being with someone who doesn't want to be with you.
> 
> 
> 
> All the Best
> 
> BP


A beautiful, heartfelt and absolutely dead accurate post. This type of assistance is what makes TAM such a great resource. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

You should seriously ask yourself this question.

Under the circumstances are you better off with her or without her?

Without any projection, I love her so she must love me too, thing. Her actions don't indicate that.


----------



## Nucking Futs

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yep, second this. Had a checked out cheating wife. Eight years down the drain with a daughter. I did a no contest divorce. Handled everything amicably by email under a week. Split eveything 50-50 including custody. Filed and was divorced the following month. People that go into divorce wanting everything often end up with nothing.
> 
> His wife wants out and apparently fast. The faster the better, that means she will hopefully be willing to compromise.


I'm not suggesting he take everything from her. I'm warning him not to let her take everything from him. Keep it fair, don't give her more than she's due.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Nucking Futs said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, second this. Had a checked out cheating wife. Eight years down the drain with a daughter. I did a no contest divorce. Handled everything amicably by email under a week. Split eveything 50-50 including custody. Filed and was divorced the following month. People that go into divorce wanting everything often end up with nothing.
> 
> His wife wants out and apparently fast. The faster the better, that means she will hopefully be willing to compromise.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not suggesting he take everything from her. I'm warning him not to let her take everything from him. Keep it fair, don't give her more than she's due.
Click to expand...

Definately. I was ready to go nuclear the second she got greedy. She did try to get a little 'Fk off' money and I told her no and it was dropped.


----------



## Marduk

If you’re playing chicken with somebody bound and determined to crash, sometimes your only play is to keep driving straight ahead, in the hopes they will stop. 

Your only play here is to assume she wants out, and let her understand sooner what that will mean to her in the hopes she stops. 

Either way, you’re better off than if she divorces and then regrets it.


----------



## DrDetroit

To all of you taking time, exercising thought, and providing advice, insights, and encouragement, thank you.

Despite your comments and suggestions, I'm still dumb. I don't know if this is me being foggy, in denial, or, as Marc called it, afflicted with hopium or maybe all three. And,as another poster suggested, there's codependency in there and, of course, fear.

I have told myself that I will be ok on the other side of this, but that was when I thought we were just temporarily separating and having a legit shot at reconciling. Nowadays, it's hard to see the positives on the other side.

So 180 does not say don't talk, it just says don't initiate conversations. Ok, I get that and am doing it. But what about when she initiates the conversation? For example, she wants to tell me about a new development at school and complain about it. My instinct is to tell her to call the OM to whine to him about it. But instead, I either don't say anything or just tell her it sounds ****ty. Do I keep the conversation going, validate her thoughts and feelings, other?

As for divorcing her... I'm getting closer mentally to running with it. One attorney suggested that we could do for with just him drawing up the papers and her reviewing and agreeing or her objecting and he modifies the papers. We have few assets, a house we bought 18 months ago, one paid off car, my retirement funds.

Regarding the house... I don't want to give it up. I do want to finish our current remodeling and want to keep the house and raise my boys in it. I can afford it. Our incomes are dramatically different. She's a classroom aid making 17 per hour (this was so she could be a part-time sahm) while over 100k a year. I can afford our house on my own but not if she gets awarded a big chunk of change in alimony.

I hope my posts don't frustrate some of you. I've seen some other threads where the posters start reaming the OP for not following their advice or for reverting to some past behavior. I am an idiot in all of this. My codependency problem and fear as well as this compulsion to reconcile with my wife is causing me to waver here and there, to not accept that my wife is totally checked out, etc.

Again, thank you all for the responses.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marduk said:


> If you’re playing chicken with somebody bound and determined to crash, sometimes your only play is to keep driving straight ahead, in the hopes they will stop.
> 
> Your only play here is to assume she wants out, and let her understand sooner what that will mean to her in the hopes she stops.
> 
> Either way, you’re better off than if she divorces and then regrets it.


Marduk, what does driving straight ahead mean in practical terms? The 180, working on my codependency problem, continuing to work out my depression, exercise, diet, and sleep, take care of my kids as best as I can.... What else?

Speaking of kids, my wife did acknowledge last night during this drive to pick up my car at the shop that I've been really attentive and giving to our boys, present, engaging... Well, hell yeah I have been. But she noted this to contrast with me not showing her that I care about her especially as she's struggling with her job.

She's constantly whining about how she has to give up her part time job and part time sahm gig because of what's happening. I don't even respond, although I really want to tell her that this is her choice, that divorce and being away from our boys is what she wants.


----------



## DrDetroit

ButtPunch said:


> I think I will add my two cents and here it is
> 
> First off, my heart breaks for you as I can feel the pain you are in from your writing.
> 
> I wish there was a magic wand to make your WW change.
> 
> It takes two people to make a marriage work and right now you don't have that.
> 
> Your WW has completely checked out. She is done.
> 
> I think exposure is a risky move and could cause a volatile divorce. I think the OM's wife
> already knows and that's the most important part.
> 
> My recommendation is to take her up on her mediation offer and get the divorce rolling.
> 
> I understand you aren't ready emotionally to pull the plug due to what appears to me some codependency.
> 
> With that in mind, I think your best chance to win your wife back and get her to respect you again is to take away
> the only thing keeping her around. $$$$$$$ I suggest you separate, move out, and let her pay her own way.
> 
> Once she feels the burden of taking care of herself, and sees you just fine without her because you will be masterfully
> employing the 180 her respect for you may take a turn.
> 
> You should get counseling for codependency during this separation and hopefully become strong enough to realize you
> don't need to tolerate being with someone who doesn't want to be with you.
> 
> All the Best
> BP


Wow, what a response. Thank you.

I agree that I don't see exposure having an upside here. The OMs wife knows and my wife's closest friends know of their feelings (but likely not the shower bs). My only angle I want to play on exposure is to contact her dad (three marriages),her mom (two marriages), two sisters (both divorced), and one or two of her closest friends to expose not just that her and the OM developed feelings for each other, but also the texting and sexting in order to request their help in influencing my wife to go no contact and reconsider busting up our family. 

The interactions with OM is currently only via email and of the email traffic I have seen they are discussing her recent panic attack and goings on of the families. But WTF donI know, right?

I'm not going to move out. However, if she is as checked out as many of you suggest, then I want her to move out. This live in separation is incredibly hard and is totally sapping me. If she wants out of this marriage, then she should own it and GTFO. Unfortunately, my fear is that she'd have the opportunity to act single and,as she says she wants, find that other person (any person, just not me) to be happy with and have companionship.

I see a lawyer tomorrow afternoon. I guess I'll be talking about the house, finances, the kids. In other words, what's the likelihood of keeping the house, how much of my income will I lose, and custody and parenting time.

**** this sucks ass. I don't want to lose my house, lose half my income, and see my kids only half the week or less. I so wish I hadn't ****ed this all up.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> You should seriously ask yourself this question.
> 
> Under the circumstances are you better off with her or without her?
> 
> Without any projection, I love her so she must love me too, thing. Her actions don't indicate that.


Under the current circumstances, better off without than with.

But that's obvious. Isn't the real question whether I think I'd be better off with her in a marriage we are both committed to each other and our family or better off as a single dad?


----------



## Tilted 1

When she talks to you ignore as you would a rock hence " Grey rocking" don't acknowledge just move to different location or go and do a task any task. Remember she is doing this to your family. Not just your kids but to you! Selfish people want things only there way. And sometimes just " TO POKE THE BEAR" Don't be that bear. Your going to be fine, just wait until you get the one that wants to do for you because she wants to.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> The interactions with OM is currently only via email and of the email traffic I have seen they are discussing her recent panic attack and goings on of the families. But WTF donI know, right?
> 
> I'm not going to move out. However, if she is as checked out as many of you suggest, then I want her to move out. This live in separation is incredibly hard and is totally sapping me. If she wants out of this marriage, then she should own it and GTFO. *Unfortunately, my fear is that she'd have the opportunity to act single and,as she says she wants, find that other person (any person, just not me) to be happy with and have companionship.*
> 
> I see a lawyer tomorrow afternoon. I guess I'll be talking about the house, finances, the kids. In other words, what's the likelihood of keeping the house, how much of my income will I lose, and custody and parenting time.
> 
> **** this sucks ass. I don't want to lose my house, lose half my income, and see my kids only half the week or less. I so wish I hadn't ****ed this all up.


She's already stepping out. 

You still don't get it. You can't stop her from doing anything she wants. This is why you're keeping yourself stuck.

Get the facts of what your rights are in D. You may not want to go that route but from what I've seen walk away spouses rarley change their minds. You are spinning your wheels and getting nowhere.


----------



## bandit.45

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Correctly would be to parents, her and your siblings and close friends. Nuclear would be what I did, that is exposing to her siblings, parents,my siblings, all of our friends, and posting on Facebook my wife had cheated and with whom she had cheated. Changed my status to single. L*ooking back, I wish I had not gone the Facebook route,* it it is what it is. I am going on four years of R.


You were a Marine. Marines don't do anything halfway.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Under the current circumstances, better off without than with.
> 
> But that's obvious. Isn't the real question whether I think I'd be better off with her in a marriage we are both committed to each other and our family or better off as a single dad?


Shes not in the marriage nor shows any sign of changing her stance.

You're still in the hopium daze.


----------



## DrDetroit

Hopium I think captures it accurately.


----------



## Tasorundo

Dude, did you really just apologize to the board for not acting fast enough for some?

Who cares what they think? Why would you ever care about that? Even if they are right, none of this is easy, and you are dealing with your real life. Tell them to go to hell if they have a problem with how you handle your own life.

Now, the real reason I posted that, is because look how weak and codependant you acted to strangers on the internet. We have no investment in you and you have none in us. However, you are worried about upsetting us? How much more so are you with your wife.

Your wife, that is day dreaming about banging her run buddy in the shower. Your wife, that expects you to emotionally and financially support her while she fantasizes about other men. Your wife, that is desperate for the day she doesn't have to see you, but still wants to have your money. You wife, that complains you are distant after doing all of this stuff to you.

She actively hurt you, then blames you for it.

Stop being nice to her, get a divorce and don't apologize.

After that, work on your issues and your anger for someone that deserves your love.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> I'm trying. She has definitely noticed the detaching and *I explicitly told her* this evening that I was detaching (see my next post for more info).


Stop doing this! You just took the wind out of your own sail. Stop showing your hand! 

Again...you are now under no obligation to explain yourself to her. If she has a problem with you grey rocking her, tell her to complain to her lawyer or the OM.


----------



## Tron

She doesn't want to be married to you, but as long as you allow yourself to be her emotional tampon she is going to keep the flow coming.

When she wants to tell you about her day, complain to you about all her problems, simply tell her to go talk to her boyfriend about it. She wants this divorce, she is firing you from the position of husband and emotional support. Then walk away.

Kids, finances and the divorce should the only things to talk about.

If she wants to talk reconciliation, then the first thing she needs to do is get rid of the ****ing boyfriend. If she is still talking to or emailing him, then you are spinning your wheels.


----------



## bandit.45

DD, take a gander at this thread. It has some sage advice. Don't play games to try and win her back. Let her go and let go of the outcome. 

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html


----------



## DrDetroit

Tasorundo said:


> Dude, did you really just apologize to the board for not acting fast enough for some?
> 
> Who cares what they think? Why would you ever care about that? Even if they are right, none of this is easy, and you are dealing with your real life. Tell them to go to hell if they have a problem with how you handle your own life.
> 
> Now, the real reason I posted that, is because look how weak and codependant you acted to strangers on the internet. We have no investment in you and you have none in us. However, you are worried about upsetting us? How much more so are you with your wife.
> 
> Your wife, that is day dreaming about banging her run buddy in the shower. Your wife, that expects you to emotionally and financially support her while she fantasizes about other men. Your wife, that is desperate for the day she doesn't have to see you, but still wants to have your money. You wife, that complains you are distant after doing all of this stuff to you.
> 
> She actively hurt you, then blames you for it.
> 
> Stop being nice to her, get a divorce and don't apologize.
> 
> After that, work on your issues and your anger for someone that deserves your love.


Wow, holy 2x4... I have to keep telling myself this.


----------



## DrDetroit

bandit.45 said:


> DD, take a gander at this thread. It has some sage advice. Don't play games to try and win her back. Let her go and let go of the outcome.
> 
> https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html


I need to acknowledge that she doesn't want me, doesn't want to be married to me, doesn't value me as a husband. She does value me as a bank account and would to value me as a friend that she can lean.

**** I wish this was easy. The OP in that thread was absolutely right, letting go is easy until emotions interfere.


----------



## DrDetroit

So go with the flow, eh? Either encourage her to initiate the dissolution of our marriage and fully participate or initiate the divorce myself. But don't continue to resist, in other words, let go and let happen what will happen because I only control myself and with that in mind, get my act together and start working on myself every day.


----------



## Marc878

Some just have to learn the hard way. You'll get there eventually. 

If you don't get it you'll just spend more time in limbo than is necessary. 

Read it again:
https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy

You're here for a reason. 

Try and make it easier on yourself. Those that get strong and stay there get through this and come out a lot better off.


----------



## Tasorundo

Yup, stop resisting her pushing for mediation/divorce. You are kind of sending her a mixed signal, you are distant, but refuse to dissolve it.

You are hanging on with everything you have and pulling back at the same time. Just pull back and let everything fall into place, you cannot stop it. You will just get caught in the machine and hurt more by the pieces falling.


----------



## DrDetroit

I want to run this by you guys... I'm also posting at marriage builder and divorce buster's. I am getting advice not to 180 my wife because it reflects a lack of caring while making the OM who is not giving her the cold shoulder look better. And, that's borne out, my wife sees my detachment as a signal that I don't care about her or the marriage.

Although, if that's how she interprets it, so what, right? She wants the separation and divorce, so why would it matter if I was displaying that I care about her difficulty at work or trouble findinf another job? 

Why would I chase the woman who has told another man that she loves him and can't wait to shower with him?


----------



## Affaircare

@DrDetroit, 

My heart aches for you because even though you may not have been perfect, you didn't want this. There is no thing under the sun that you did that warrants adultery--there just isn't. 

Sadly, from all that you post, it does sound to me as if your wife is done. I know you wish she still loved you and cared about your marriage, but none of her actions indicate that she is even aware of you or your relationship, much less cares about it. Don't listen to her words AT ALL...watch her actions. Does she act like she is concerned, interested in, or looking after anyone other than herself? If her actions don't demonstrate love, then she doesn't feel love...and I know it hurts you to hear that, but it's the truth. 

So my thoughts to you are two-fold: 1) learn to accept what is true, and 2) allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. 

1) Learn to accept what is true. Hopium leads to denial, in the poor mental health sense. You are denying what is real. Reality is that your wife loves another, wants to be with another, does not want to continue the relationship with you, and is not concerned about the damage she's doing. She does not respect you, and she does not value what you have to offer (to a degree...see below). 

Now I know this is a very bitter pill to swallow, but it is where you find yourself--in her eyes you are disposable. Now, in YOUR eyes, you value her and maybe even still respect her somewhat, so to you, it's BITTER to be cast aside by someone whom you still value. But just because SHE doesn't value you doesn't mean you aren't valuable!! It just means that in HER eyes you aren't appreciated and worthy. Maybe her value system is so messed up she doesn't know a good thing when she has it in her hand! 

As sad as it is, I invite you to embrace the truth--you are not wanted BY HER--and let yourself feel the sorrow. Stop trying to avoid it and deny--just admit that it's there, it's true, and you are deeply grieving over this. It's okay. This is worthy of sorrowing. Set aside some time to actually sit and fully ponder and cry over this truth, and accept it. It just IS the way it is. Be sad. And after a certain time, let it go, and by that I just mean don't sit and wallow, but rather feel what you feel, really feel it, and then be done for the time being. 

2) Allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. Here's the thing: you aren't her daddy and you aren't her morality police. You can no more stop her from committing adultery than you can turn a mountain into a molehill. It's not your job to "punish" her or "teach her a lesson." However, right now she thinks if she divorces, she gets to keep her kids and her current lifestyle and something as nice as or better than your house and her current car and her current bills paid--only difference is that she swaps you OUT and swaps loverboy IN. That's her unrealistic, affair-fogged, romanticized fantasy in her head right now: she loses ALL the bad, but gets to keep ALL the good. 

In real life, every single choice has a cost and a benefit. Marrying you, the benefit was that she got to be a SAHM and work part-time and be with the kids--the cost was fidelity. Cheating on you, the benefit is that she gets the thrill of feeling interesting and desirable, but the cost is no more being a SAHM or working part-time or being with the kids like she likes. As adults, we are personally resposible for our choices. By NOT allowing her to experience the natural consequences of her own choices, what you are essentially saying is "You can't handle it." By allowing her to experience the natural consequences, your actions say that you believe she is able to handle the cost and benefits of what she chooses. 

In this case, it's super easy. You have both costs and benefits. Having access to you for any kind of funds, is a benefit of you. Having you to complain to about a hard day, is a benefit of you. Having you provide a nice home and nice things at the level a $100k+ salary can, is a benefit of you. Etc. Etc. You have many benefits. The cost to receive those benefits was fidelity. She doesn't want to pay that cost, so when she chose the OM and the affair...well that is her choice to make! We may think it's unwise and immoral, but people can choose to be stupid and wicked if they want! But if she chooses OM--she has FIRED YOU from the job. That means she loses the benefits of you! 

See how this works, @DrDetroit? You aren't being mean or being a jerk or being anything! You are saying, "Wife, you are free to make any decision you want. Make whatever choice you believe is right for you. But every choice has both a cost and a benefit. If you really want to divorce, there is a natural cost in that choice: you no longer get the benefits of me. I won't provide for you...you will have to provide for you. I can provide for the kids at my own place and care for them adequately--you would have to provide for them at your own place. I won't be your frustration dumping ground anymore. If you have a bad day at work, you fired me so you'll need to find someone else to vent at. I won't 'help' or 'support you' or 'encourage you' or do anything with you because you will be like the bank teller or grocery store cashier to me--just another person living in my town."


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> Some just have to learn the hard way. You'll get there eventually.
> 
> If you don't get it you'll just spend more time in limbo than is necessary.
> 
> Read it again:
> https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy
> 
> You're here for a reason.
> 
> Try and make it easier on yourself. Those that get strong and stay there get through this and come out a lot better off.


Marc, I want to catch up, I want to understand. I'm not making a conscious effort to remain in limbo.

What am I missing?


----------



## ButtPunch

Affaircare is the best!

Well written.


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> @DrDetroit,
> 
> My heart aches for you because even though you may not have been perfect, you didn't want this. There is no thing under the sun that you did that warrants adultery--there just isn't.
> 
> Sadly, from all that you post, it does sound to me as if your wife is done. I know you wish she still loved you and cared about your marriage, but none of her actions indicate that she is even aware of you or your relationship, much less cares about it. Don't listen to her words AT ALL...watch her actions. Does she act like she is concerned, interested in, or looking after anyone other than herself? If her actions don't demonstrate love, then she doesn't feel love...and I know it hurts you to hear that, but it's the truth.
> 
> So my thoughts to you are two-fold: 1) learn to accept what is true, and 2) allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices.
> 
> 1) Learn to accept what is true. Hopium leads to denial, in the poor mental health sense. You are denying what is real. Reality is that your wife loves another, wants to be with another, does not want to continue the relationship with you, and is not concerned about the damage she's doing. She does not respect you, and she does not value what you have to offer (to a degree...see below).
> 
> Now I know this is a very bitter pill to swallow, but it is where you find yourself--in her eyes you are disposable. Now, in YOUR eyes, you value her and maybe even still respect her somewhat, so to you, it's BITTER to be cast aside by someone whom you still value. But just because SHE doesn't value you doesn't mean you aren't valuable!! It just means that in HER eyes you aren't appreciated and worthy. Maybe her value system is so messed up she doesn't know a good thing when she has it in her hand!
> 
> As sad as it is, I invite you to embrace the truth--you are not wanted BY HER--and let yourself feel the sorrow. Stop trying to avoid it and deny--just admit that it's there, it's true, and you are deeply grieving over this. It's okay. This is worthy of sorrowing. Set aside some time to actually sit and fully ponder and cry over this truth, and accept it. It just IS the way it is. Be sad. And after a certain time, let it go, and by that I just mean don't sit and wallow, but rather feel what you feel, really feel it, and then be done for the time being.
> 
> 2) Allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. Here's the thing: you aren't her daddy and you aren't her morality police. You can no more stop her from committing adultery than you can turn a mountain into a molehill. It's not your job to "punish" her or "teach her a lesson." However, right now she thinks if she divorces, she gets to keep her kids and her current lifestyle and something as nice as or better than your house and her current car and her current bills paid--only difference is that she swaps you OUT and swaps loverboy IN. That's her unrealistic, affair-fogged, romanticized fantasy in her head right now: she loses ALL the bad, but gets to keep ALL the good.
> 
> In real life, every single choice has a cost and a benefit. Marrying you, the benefit was that she got to be a SAHM and work part-time and be with the kids--the cost was fidelity. Cheating on you, the benefit is that she gets the thrill of feeling interesting and desirable, but the cost is no more being a SAHM or working part-time or being with the kids like she likes. As adults, we are personally resposible for our choices. By NOT allowing her to experience the natural consequences of her own choices, what you are essentially saying is "You can't handle it." By allowing her to experience the natural consequences, your actions say that you believe she is able to handle the cost and benefits of what she chooses.
> 
> In this case, it's super easy. You have both costs and benefits. Having access to you for any kind of funds, is a benefit of you. Having you to complain to about a hard day, is a benefit of you. Having you provide a nice home and nice things at the level a $100k+ salary can, is a benefit of you. Etc. Etc. You have many benefits. The cost to receive those benefits was fidelity. She doesn't want to pay that cost, so when she chose the OM and the affair...well that is her choice to make! We may think it's unwise and immoral, but people can choose to be stupid and wicked if they want! But if she chooses OM--she has FIRED YOU from the job. That means she loses the benefits of you!
> 
> See how this works, @DrDetroit? You aren't being mean or being a jerk or being anything! You are saying, "Wife, you are free to make any decision you want. Make whatever choice you believe is right for you. But every choice has both a cost and a benefit. If you really want to divorce, there is a natural cost in that choice: you no longer get the benefits of me. I won't provide for you...you will have to provide for you. I can provide for the kids at my own place and care for them adequately--you would have to provide for them at your own place. I won't be your frustration dumping ground anymore. If you have a bad day at work, you fired me so you'll need to find someone else to vent at. I won't 'help' or 'support you' or 'encourage you' or do anything with you because you will be like the bank teller or grocery store cashier to me--just another person living in my town."


Thank you so much.

Should I actually say those words to her or love those words by not validating her feelings, by not trying to be encouraging, by not being her crying shoulder?

Also, when she is sitting at the table and crying in front of me and the kids or is having a panic attack in front of us, what do I do? Engage, be supportive or just let her live with those emotions?


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> *I'm also posting at marriage builder *and divorce buster's.?


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Now it all makes sense. 

Those sites preach a totally different approach towards breaking infidelity. *That* is why you are so confused. TAM uses the "protect yourself" and "tough love" approaches to dealing with a WS. 

You gotta pick us or them DD. You can't work both methods. They are completely opposite and incompatible methods.


----------



## ButtPunch

DrDetroit said:


> Thank you so much.
> 
> Should I actually say those words to her or love those words by not validating her feelings, by not trying to be encouraging, by not being her crying shoulder?


Your actions and not your words are the way to move forward Dr. D


----------



## DrDetroit

bandit.45 said:


> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Now it all makes sense.
> 
> Those sites preach a totally different approach towards breaking infidelity. *That* is why you are so confused. TAM uses the "protect yourself" and "tough love" approaches to dealing with a WS.
> 
> You gotta pick us or them DD. You can't work both methods. They are completely opposite and incompatible methods.


So is my wife a wayward spouse or a walk away spouse or both? She is wayward in that she engaged in an EA, but a walkaway spouse in that she has stopped seeing the OM although continues to email).

Yes, I am confused.


----------



## DrDetroit

ButtPunch said:


> Your actions and not your words are the way to move forward Dr. D


Ok, but what actions do I take? Move forward with the divorce?


----------



## bandit.45

DD, if you have the wherewithal I would encourage you to read the thread below. This was a poster who for months played the "pick me" dance with a WW who had lost all love and respect for him. Read and learn what happened when he refused to take any firm and deliberate action with regards to his self worth and future. It is an agonizing read. 

We don't want what happened to SteveK happen to you. 

ttps://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/177058-what-type-man-chases-married-woman.html


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> So is my wife a wayward spouse or a walk away spouse or both? She is wayward in that she engaged in an EA, but a walkaway spouse in that she has stopped seeing the OM although continues to email).
> 
> Yes, I am confused.


She is both. What she is having is usually called an "exit affair". It is her way of completely exterminating all feelings she ever had for you.


----------



## Tron

DrDetroit said:


> Thank you so much.
> 
> Should I actually say those words to her or love those words by not validating her feelings, by not trying to be encouraging, by not being her crying shoulder?
> 
> Also, when she is sitting at the table and crying in front of me and the kids or is having a panic attack in front of us, what do I do? Engage, be supportive or just let her live with those emotions?


Well, I'd memorize a few canned answers. 

"It sucks to be you."

"You fired me from that job."

"If we were going to stay married, then this might be something we could talk about, but sadly that is not the case."

"I'm not your whipping boy anymore."

There are probably a few others the folks here could help you with.

But all require that single response and you grabbing your kids and walking out the door and being the best dad and man you can be. 

Let her choke on her own emotions. This is what she says she wants.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Thank you so much.
> 
> Should I actually say those words to her or love those words by not validating her feelings, by not trying to be encouraging, by not being her crying shoulder?
> 
> Also, when she is sitting at the table and crying in front of me and the kids or is having a panic attack in front of us, what do I do? Engage, be supportive or just let her live with those emotions?


Round up the kids and leave with them. Go get ice cream or something. 

Do not rescue her from the consequences of her own actions. She’s an adult. At least she’s supposed to be. 

As I said to my wife, “You can throw yourself a pity party all you want, but it doesn’t mean I have to come.”


----------



## Chaparral

If they are still in any kind of contact the affair is still going on. Of course he is comforting her. He’s still grooming her. You know why.


----------



## DrDetroit

God damn, I am waking up, I think.

Reading that Steve K. thread, well, the last several pages, I see what some of you are saying.

I need a plan, but don't know the components or how to think about it.

180, Let her go which also means pursuing divorce, let her suffer the emotions that her actions are causing by leaving and taking the kids with me, no mr talk or talk about marriage or divorce until she demonstrates no contact with OM.


----------



## DrDetroit

Chaparral said:


> If they are still in any kind of contact the affair is still going on. Of course he is comforting her. He’s still grooming her. You know why.


What should I get out of the book Not Just Friends? I have it on my night stand and have just peeked through it but it's overwhelming asf.


----------



## ButtPunch

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, but what actions do I take? Move forward with the divorce?


As others have stated do not be her emotional tampon any longer.

Let her feel the financial consequences of separation.

Don't threaten her with these actions. Just do them. 

She can't have your wallet and a boyfriend any longer. 

Just let her go


----------



## DrDetroit

ButtPunch said:


> As others have stated do not be her emotional tampon any longer.
> 
> Let her feel the financial consequences of separation.
> 
> Don't threaten her with these actions. Just do them.
> 
> She can't have your wallet and a boyfriend any longer.
> 
> Just let her go


Does this mean change my direct deposit and emptying the joint savings?


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> @DrDetroit,
> 
> My heart aches for you because even though you may not have been perfect, you didn't want this. There is no thing under the sun that you did that warrants adultery--there just isn't.
> 
> Sadly, from all that you post, it does sound to me as if your wife is done. I know you wish she still loved you and cared about your marriage, but none of her actions indicate that she is even aware of you or your relationship, much less cares about it. Don't listen to her words AT ALL...watch her actions. Does she act like she is concerned, interested in, or looking after anyone other than herself? If her actions don't demonstrate love, then she doesn't feel love...and I know it hurts you to hear that, but it's the truth.
> 
> So my thoughts to you are two-fold: 1) learn to accept what is true, and 2) allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices.
> 
> 1) Learn to accept what is true. Hopium leads to denial, in the poor mental health sense. You are denying what is real. Reality is that your wife loves another, wants to be with another, does not want to continue the relationship with you, and is not concerned about the damage she's doing. She does not respect you, and she does not value what you have to offer (to a degree...see below).
> 
> Now I know this is a very bitter pill to swallow, but it is where you find yourself--in her eyes you are disposable. Now, in YOUR eyes, you value her and maybe even still respect her somewhat, so to you, it's BITTER to be cast aside by someone whom you still value. But just because SHE doesn't value you doesn't mean you aren't valuable!! It just means that in HER eyes you aren't appreciated and worthy. Maybe her value system is so messed up she doesn't know a good thing when she has it in her hand!
> 
> As sad as it is, I invite you to embrace the truth--you are not wanted BY HER--and let yourself feel the sorrow. Stop trying to avoid it and deny--just admit that it's there, it's true, and you are deeply grieving over this. It's okay. This is worthy of sorrowing. Set aside some time to actually sit and fully ponder and cry over this truth, and accept it. It just IS the way it is. Be sad. And after a certain time, let it go, and by that I just mean don't sit and wallow, but rather feel what you feel, really feel it, and then be done for the time being.
> 
> 2) Allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. Here's the thing: you aren't her daddy and you aren't her morality police. You can no more stop her from committing adultery than you can turn a mountain into a molehill. It's not your job to "punish" her or "teach her a lesson." However, right now she thinks if she divorces, she gets to keep her kids and her current lifestyle and something as nice as or better than your house and her current car and her current bills paid--only difference is that she swaps you OUT and swaps loverboy IN. That's her unrealistic, affair-fogged, romanticized fantasy in her head right now: she loses ALL the bad, but gets to keep ALL the good.
> 
> In real life, every single choice has a cost and a benefit. Marrying you, the benefit was that she got to be a SAHM and work part-time and be with the kids--the cost was fidelity. Cheating on you, the benefit is that she gets the thrill of feeling interesting and desirable, but the cost is no more being a SAHM or working part-time or being with the kids like she likes. As adults, we are personally resposible for our choices. By NOT allowing her to experience the natural consequences of her own choices, what you are essentially saying is "You can't handle it." By allowing her to experience the natural consequences, your actions say that you believe she is able to handle the cost and benefits of what she chooses.
> 
> In this case, it's super easy. You have both costs and benefits. Having access to you for any kind of funds, is a benefit of you. Having you to complain to about a hard day, is a benefit of you. Having you provide a nice home and nice things at the level a $100k+ salary can, is a benefit of you. Etc. Etc. You have many benefits. The cost to receive those benefits was fidelity. She doesn't want to pay that cost, so when she chose the OM and the affair...well that is her choice to make! We may think it's unwise and immoral, but people can choose to be stupid and wicked if they want! But if she chooses OM--she has FIRED YOU from the job. That means she loses the benefits of you!
> 
> See how this works, @DrDetroit? You aren't being mean or being a jerk or being anything! You are saying, "Wife, you are free to make any decision you want. Make whatever choice you believe is right for you. But every choice has both a cost and a benefit. If you really want to divorce, there is a natural cost in that choice: you no longer get the benefits of me. I won't provide for you...you will have to provide for you. I can provide for the kids at my own place and care for them adequately--you would have to provide for them at your own place. I won't be your frustration dumping ground anymore. If you have a bad day at work, you fired me so you'll need to find someone else to vent at. I won't 'help' or 'support you' or 'encourage you' or do anything with you because you will be like the bank teller or grocery store cashier to me--just another person living in my town."


Another question...will the 180 work if the wife is checked out or believes that there's nothing about me that is valuable to her?


----------



## Tron

DrDetroit said:


> Does this mean change my direct deposit and emptying the joint savings?


You are getting into a legal area here. This needs to be discussed with your lawyer. The rules from state to state vary. Might be a good question to ask in your initial legal consults.

In general, I think moving the direct deposit is ok. Just remember though that until you are divorced or in some cases officially separated the money you both make is marital/community money. Blocking her access by moving the direct deposit to somewhere else is simply preventing her from committing financial malfeasance. I don't know if she is prone to that or not. 

The appearance of emptying your savings might not look so good in court. Grabbing half though...


----------



## Tron

DrDetroit said:


> Another question...will the 180 work if the wife is checked out or believes that there's nothing about me that is valuable to her?


Will the 180 work for what?

The 180 is not a tool to be used to manipulate her. 

It is to help you detach, to prepare you and to prepare her for the oncoming divorce and what that means.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Does this mean change my direct deposit and emptying the joint savings?


Yes since you pay the bills.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Another question...will the 180 work if the wife is checked out or believes that there's nothing about me that is valuable to her?


This is for you not her.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> So is my wife a wayward spouse or a walk away spouse or both? She is wayward in that she engaged in an EA, but a walkaway spouse in that she has stopped seeing the OM although continues to email).
> 
> Yes, I am confused.


No walkaway , is she's check out and no longer a part of your life. Leaves you. But regardless , She rather be gone than look at you.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, but what actions do I take? Move forward with the divorce?


Yes fulfill her choices.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Thank you so much.
> 
> Should I actually say those words to her or love those words by not validating her feelings, by not trying to be encouraging, by not being her crying shoulder?
> 
> Also, when she is sitting at the table and crying in front of me and the kids or is having a panic attack in front of us, what do I do? Engage, be supportive or just let her live with those emotions?


You give her back her consequences , TEN-fold, it's not who you are as a person, but rather a MAN who is done with her BS and desires her no more.


----------



## farsidejunky

DD, here is another example of an excruciating read for someone who tried what was effectively the Marriage Builders Plan A. 

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/copin...one-please-read-help-me-i-am-out-options.html

Gut... Wrenching... I would recommend it to no one. 

I also think you will find some INCREDIBLE similarities. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ButtPunch

Tron said:


> You are getting into a legal area here. This needs to be discussed with your lawyer. The rules from state to state vary. Might be a good question to ask in your initial legal consults.
> 
> In general, I think moving the direct deposit is ok. Just remember though that until you are divorced or in some cases officially separated the money you both make is marital/community money. Blocking her access by moving the direct deposit to somewhere else is simply preventing her from committing financial malfeasance. I don't know if she is prone to that or not.
> 
> The appearance of emptying your savings might not look so good in court. Grabbing half though...


This is correct. Everything needs to be run by a lawyer or negotiated with your wife.

Get her to move out and find out what you legally need to give her and not a penny more.


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Marduk, what does driving straight ahead mean in practical terms? The 180, working on my codependency problem, continuing to work out my depression, exercise, diet, and sleep, take care of my kids as best as I can.... What else?
> 
> Speaking of kids, my wife did acknowledge last night during this drive to pick up my car at the shop that I've been really attentive and giving to our boys, present, engaging... Well, hell yeah I have been. But she noted this to contrast with me not showing her that I care about her especially as she's struggling with her job.
> 
> She's constantly whining about how she has to give up her part time job and part time sahm gig because of what's happening. I don't even respond, although I really want to tell her that this is her choice, that divorce and being away from our boys is what she wants.


You simply tell her the boys want you as their dad. 

You no longer want me as your husband, your affair has taken the responsibility of your comforter away from me. You have your boyfriends wife’s permission to talk to him anytime you want.


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Under the current circumstances, better off without than with.
> 
> But that's obvious. Isn't the real question whether I think I'd be better off with her in a marriage we are both committed to each other and our family or better off as a single dad?


 That choice is not yours. You have to realize this is not your choice to make. She has to be the one to choose to stay in the marriage and she’s not doing that.

From what you’ve been saying all along, she is not going to choose you. She’s either going hope that the other man divorces or she’s going to find someone else.

The sooner you except this the better off you will be and the better off your kids will be. 

Another thing, stop letting her dictate what she’s going to do with mediation. With the best interest of the kids involved you will not be staying married to her for another eight or nine months. That you have the same right find happiness again seeing how it’s not gonna be with her. 

Also, go out somewhere. Go to a sports bar watch a game on the big screen do what ever at least once a week. If she asked where are you going just tell her you’re going out. I am not saying to start dating but you need time away from all the BS.


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> I want to run this by you guys... I'm also posting at marriage builder and divorce buster's. I am getting advice not to 180 my wife because it reflects a lack of caring while making the OM who is not giving her the cold shoulder look better. And, that's borne out, my wife sees my detachment as a signal that I don't care about her or the marriage.
> 
> Although, if that's how she interprets it, so what, right? She wants the separation and divorce, so why would it matter if I was displaying that I care about her difficulty at work or trouble findinf another job?
> 
> Why would I chase the woman who has told another man that she loves him and can't wait to shower with him?


Very good question to ask yourself. Why would you want to stay married to a woman that says you’re not **** to her.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tron said:


> Will the 180 work for what?
> 
> The 180 is not a tool to be used to manipulate her.
> 
> It is to help you detach, to prepare you and to prepare her for the oncoming divorce and what that means.


I guess work as in would my wife, given as I have described the situation, recognize that I am detaching and 180ing and get interested.

But, as you noted, that's not the point. The point is that the 180 works when I have successfully detached from the marriage and am no longer dependent on it or her for my happiness. That way, no matter what happens, my happiness is no longer linked to the marriage. I have my life and can choose to be happy in or not in a relationship.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tilted 1 said:


> No walkaway , is she's check out and no longer a part of your life. Leaves you. But regardless , She rather be gone than look at you.


This is what is confusing... As a walkaway, why does she care whether I am a kind friend to her or if I engage in conversation? Or is it pure manipulation?


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Marc, I want to catch up, I want to understand. I'm not making a conscious effort to remain in limbo.
> 
> What am I missing?


 You’re really not missing anything. Everybody that goes through this goes at it at their own pace. You’re just gonna take a little longer to get through your mind that there is no hope to save your marriage. 

Detach from your wife, that is what the 180 is for. 

Stop worrying about your wife’s comfort. As long as she’s saying she wants a divorce and talking to her affair partner she is not your responsibility.You cannot nice your wife back to you.


----------



## DrDetroit

ABHale said:


> You’re really not missing anything. Everybody that goes through this goes at it at their own pace. You’re just gonna take a little longer to get through your mind that there is no hope to save your marriage.
> 
> Detach from your wife, that is what the 180 is for.
> 
> Stop worrying about your wife’s comfort. As long as she’s saying she wants a divorce and talking to her affair partner she is not your responsibility.You cannot nice your wife back to you.


Thanks for that.

I believe that my wife wants a divorce, but my thinking is that shes in the fog, so interrupting her continuing comms with the AP could cause her to rethink her decision.

She says she has no hope and that my actions are too little, too late, but I'm not supposed to believe her words, I thought. So, that she hasn't made a move on divorce other than keep talking about it, I've carved out hope.


----------



## ABHale

When you talk to a lawyer and the first words out of their mouth is your going to take a beating, find another lawyer. Find one that’s willing toFight for you.

Unless you can afford two homes at the same value as the one you’re in you are going to have to sell. Talk this over with the lawyer you go with. I guarantee your wife is thinking that her and the kids are going to be staying in your home, while you are in a small apartment eating Ramen noodles. 

You really need to go for 50-50 custody of your kids swapping out once a week on the weekend. That way the boys school is not interrupted during the week I having to change where they’re staying during the week. 

Find a lawyer that’s willing to fight for you.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

DrDetroit said:


> She says she has no hope and that my actions are too little, too late, but I'm not supposed to believe her words, I thought. So, that she hasn't made a move on divorce other than keep talking about it, I've carved out hope.


Yea whatever, my W talked the same crap too, she is in fog big time.... The only thing that works is hitting her up w D papers.. Don't debate it, just do it....


----------



## Tron

DrDetroit said:


> This is what is confusing... As a walkaway, why does she care whether I am a kind friend to her or if I engage in conversation? Or is it pure manipulation?


She cares because the easier that you make this for her, the more she can say to herself..."my cheating on him wasn't that bad. See there, he is still my friend, so it's all ok that I treated him like dog****." OR even worse..."look at that doormat that used to be my husband, after everything I did to him, ****ed other guys, loved other men, he still wanted me...I can't respect a man who has no respect for himself."

It is lizard brain craziness, but there you go. 

The bottom line is that it's not ok. It will never be ok. That is why it is not ok to "engage her" in these conversations. 

She doesn't get a free ride. 

And after all this, she won't get you, your support, your money or your friendship. Get your 50% custody of the kids, your half of the marital estate and make her live the life of a single mom making $17 an hour. Life will get real for her very quickly. It isn't going to be sexy. It isn't going to be pleasant. 

So while she is thinking that the land beyond your marriage is a land of fairies, unicorns and rainbows you go get the best deal that you can in this divorce.


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, but what actions do I take? Move forward with the divorce?


Yes move forward with the divorce. You can always stop the divorce before it takes place. Your wife has to be the one that decides to stay in the marriage because she is the one that’s wanting to leave. Then it will be your call if you want to stop the divorce or continue with it


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> What should I get out of the book Not Just Friends? I have it on my night stand and have just peeked through it but it's overwhelming asf.


 That book is for the wayward spouse That says we’re just friends. 

You really need to be reading no more Mr. nice guy. Give the other book to your wife.


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## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Does this mean change my direct deposit and emptying the joint savings?


 By all means open up another checking account of your own and switch your direct deposit. I assume you already take care of all the household budget, if so continue doing so until you talk with your lawyer. Savings needs to be split 50-50 I do believe. Take half of it out and put it in your own savings account after speaking with your lawyer.


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> This is what is confusing... As a walkaway, why does she care whether I am a kind friend to her or if I engage in conversation? Or is it pure manipulation?


Because some people like having their cake and eating it too. Your wife wants everything she can get from you until she leaves you high and dry. In other words, she wants all of your love and support you have to offer her until the day she walks out the door.


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> I believe that my wife wants a divorce, but my thinking is that shes in the fog, so interrupting her continuing comms with the AP could cause her to rethink her decision.
> 
> She says she has no hope and that my actions are too little, too late, but I'm not supposed to believe her words, I thought. So, that she hasn't made a move on divorce other than keep talking about it, I've carved out hope.


 Answer this one question. Can your wife support herself if she left today? You have your answer why she has not left?


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> I believe that my wife wants a divorce, but my thinking is that shes in the fog, so interrupting her continuing comms with the AP could cause her to rethink her decision.
> 
> She says she has no hope and that my actions are too little, too late, but I'm not supposed to believe her words, I thought. So, that she hasn't made a move on divorce other than keep talking about it, I've carved out hope.


 Answer this one question. Can your wife support herself if she left today? You have your answer for why she has not left. 

She knows it’s going to take about a year for her to get a job and get stable. That’s why she wants to wait a year and let the boys get through this year of school so she’s able to support herself and the boys buy them. It would also be easier to move during the summer while the boys are not in school.


----------



## DrDetroit

ABHale said:


> Answer this one question. Can your wife support herself if she left today? You have your answer for why she has not left.
> 
> She knows it’s going to take about a year for her to get a job and get stable. That’s why she wants to wait a year and let the boys get through this year of school so she’s able to support herself and the boys buy them. It would also be easier to move during the summer while the boys are not in school.


No, she cannot and she knows it, hence, the pity party whining lately about having to pull her big girl pants up, how she can't support her and the boys with her current job, and about how she screwed herself by being a sahm rather than establishing a career.

I gotta figure how to blow up this live in separation nonsense. She's living without consequence right now, still spending my money, still living under my roof while remaining in contact with this ****ing OM.

Just talked again with the OMs wife and reiterated that they're in contact still. Found out that he texts my wife using his wife's phone because "he's not supposed to be in contact" with my wife. Yet, he's emailing my wife. The OMs wife then asked me why are they still communicating. Almost lost my ****. I reminded her that she's the one who told my wife to keep her friendship with her husband. Oh my God, man. Tomorrow I'm going to call the OMs wife and simply say that she needs to help stamp out the communication. Keep in mind that the OM and OMs wife were extremely close family friends, so it's tough to be so frank with her.


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> This is what is confusing... As a walkaway, why does she care whether I am a kind friend to her or if I engage in conversation? Or is it pure manipulation?


Guilt. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that my wife wants a divorce, but my thinking is that shes in the fog, so interrupting her continuing comms with the AP could cause her to rethink her decision.
> 
> 
> 
> She says she has no hope and that my actions are too little, too late, but I'm not supposed to believe her words, I thought. So, that she hasn't made a move on divorce other than keep talking about it, I've carved out hope.


It could also cause her to become combative, rather than the nice, pliable wayward you have right now...who may be more willing to acquiesce to a better deal for you in divorce...just so she can be free of you. 

Chess, DD...not checkers. 



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> No, she cannot and she knows it, hence, the pity party whining lately about having to pull her big girl pants up, how she can't support her and the boys with her current job, and about how she screwed herself by being a sahm rather than establishing a career.
> 
> I gotta figure how to blow up this live in separation nonsense. She's living without consequence right now, still spending my money, still living under my roof while remaining in contact with this ****ing OM.
> 
> Just talked again with the OMs wife and reiterated that they're in contact still. Found out that he texts my wife using his wife's phone because "he's not supposed to be in contact" with my wife. Yet, he's emailing my wife. The OMs wife then asked me why are they still communicating. Almost lost my ****. I reminded her that she's the one who told my wife to keep her friendship with her husband. Oh my God, man. Tomorrow I'm going to call the OMs wife and simply say that she needs to help stamp out the communication. Keep in mind that the OM and OMs wife were extremely close family friends, so it's tough to be so frank with her.


You blow it up by filing for divorce...which is exactly what you are unwilling to do.

As such, the current situation will continue.

If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## honcho

DrDetroit said:


> No, she cannot and she knows it, hence, the pity party whining lately about having to pull her big girl pants up, how she can't support her and the boys with her current job, and about how she screwed herself by being a sahm rather than establishing a career.
> 
> I gotta figure how to blow up this live in separation nonsense. She's living without consequence right now, still spending my money, still living under my roof while remaining in contact with this ****ing OM.
> 
> Just talked again with the OMs wife and reiterated that they're in contact still. Found out that he texts my wife using his wife's phone because "he's not supposed to be in contact" with my wife. Yet, he's emailing my wife. The OMs wife then asked me why are they still communicating. Almost lost my ****. I reminded her that she's the one who told my wife to keep her friendship with her husband. Oh my God, man. Tomorrow I'm going to call the OMs wife and simply say that she needs to help stamp out the communication. Keep in mind that the OM and OMs wife were extremely close family friends, so it's tough to be so frank with her.


The om wife knows what's going on, she needs to do what she feels is best for her, not you. Trying to get to to police her husband to stop talking to your wife won't much good. If they stopped communication tomorrow it's not going to change the dynamic in your marriage right now. Your hoping it pops out of "the fog" and it won't in many cases. It will just make her pine for him that much harder and they will find ways to communicate. 

You need to file for divorce, agree to mediation at least for now and show her your done and put this on the clock. It's not what you want but it's your best and only avenue. The longer these things go on the worse deal your going to end up with. She will be agreeable to things now because she's in fantasy world. You want consequences yet your unwilling to enforce any.


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## Marc878

Upfront most BS's just want them back without a thought on what they're getting back. Then when the dust settles they start having buyers remorse/second thoughts. 

Your panicked thoughts now will change over time. 

Not to mention if they cheat once the capability is there to do it again. 

Better wake up to where you are.


----------



## VeryHurt

Affaircare said:


> @DrDetroit,
> 
> My heart aches for you because even though you may not have been perfect, you didn't want this. There is no thing under the sun that you did that warrants adultery--there just isn't.
> 
> Sadly, from all that you post, it does sound to me as if your wife is done. I know you wish she still loved you and cared about your marriage, but none of her actions indicate that she is even aware of you or your relationship, much less cares about it. Don't listen to her words AT ALL...watch her actions. Does she act like she is concerned, interested in, or looking after anyone other than herself? If her actions don't demonstrate love, then she doesn't feel love...and I know it hurts you to hear that, but it's the truth.
> 
> So my thoughts to you are two-fold: 1) learn to accept what is true, and 2) allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices.
> 
> 1) Learn to accept what is true. Hopium leads to denial, in the poor mental health sense. You are denying what is real. Reality is that your wife loves another, wants to be with another, does not want to continue the relationship with you, and is not concerned about the damage she's doing. She does not respect you, and she does not value what you have to offer (to a degree...see below).
> 
> Now I know this is a very bitter pill to swallow, but it is where you find yourself--in her eyes you are disposable. Now, in YOUR eyes, you value her and maybe even still respect her somewhat, so to you, it's BITTER to be cast aside by someone whom you still value. But just because SHE doesn't value you doesn't mean you aren't valuable!! It just means that in HER eyes you aren't appreciated and worthy. Maybe her value system is so messed up she doesn't know a good thing when she has it in her hand!
> 
> As sad as it is, I invite you to embrace the truth--you are not wanted BY HER--and let yourself feel the sorrow. Stop trying to avoid it and deny--just admit that it's there, it's true, and you are deeply grieving over this. It's okay. This is worthy of sorrowing. Set aside some time to actually sit and fully ponder and cry over this truth, and accept it. It just IS the way it is. Be sad. And after a certain time, let it go, and by that I just mean don't sit and wallow, but rather feel what you feel, really feel it, and then be done for the time being.
> 
> 2) Allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. Here's the thing: you aren't her daddy and you aren't her morality police. You can no more stop her from committing adultery than you can turn a mountain into a molehill. It's not your job to "punish" her or "teach her a lesson." However, right now she thinks if she divorces, she gets to keep her kids and her current lifestyle and something as nice as or better than your house and her current car and her current bills paid--only difference is that she swaps you OUT and swaps loverboy IN. That's her unrealistic, affair-fogged, romanticized fantasy in her head right now: she loses ALL the bad, but gets to keep ALL the good.
> 
> In real life, every single choice has a cost and a benefit. Marrying you, the benefit was that she got to be a SAHM and work part-time and be with the kids--the cost was fidelity. Cheating on you, the benefit is that she gets the thrill of feeling interesting and desirable, but the cost is no more being a SAHM or working part-time or being with the kids like she likes. As adults, we are personally resposible for our choices. By NOT allowing her to experience the natural consequences of her own choices, what you are essentially saying is "You can't handle it." By allowing her to experience the natural consequences, your actions say that you believe she is able to handle the cost and benefits of what she chooses.
> 
> In this case, it's super easy. You have both costs and benefits. Having access to you for any kind of funds, is a benefit of you. Having you to complain to about a hard day, is a benefit of you. Having you provide a nice home and nice things at the level a $100k+ salary can, is a benefit of you. Etc. Etc. You have many benefits. The cost to receive those benefits was fidelity. She doesn't want to pay that cost, so when she chose the OM and the affair...well that is her choice to make! We may think it's unwise and immoral, but people can choose to be stupid and wicked if they want! But if she chooses OM--she has FIRED YOU from the job. That means she loses the benefits of you!
> 
> See how this works, @DrDetroit? You aren't being mean or being a jerk or being anything! You are saying, "Wife, you are free to make any decision you want. Make whatever choice you believe is right for you. But every choice has both a cost and a benefit. If you really want to divorce, there is a natural cost in that choice: you no longer get the benefits of me. I won't provide for you...you will have to provide for you. I can provide for the kids at my own place and care for them adequately--you would have to provide for them at your own place. I won't be your frustration dumping ground anymore. If you have a bad day at work, you fired me so you'll need to find someone else to vent at. I won't 'help' or 'support you' or 'encourage you' or do anything with you because you will be like the bank teller or grocery store cashier to me--just another person living in my town."


Affaircare 

As you know, my 34 year marriage ended 3 years ago. 
Reading your post to Dr. D was a welcomed refresher course for me. 
Thank You so much.

Dr. D, please don’t hang on to air like I did. 

Don’t allow her to steal your soul. 
Listen to the wise posters here.
Their wisdom is priceless 

Be Strong
Hold onto your dignity 

VH


----------



## niceguy47460

Take your money away from her .


----------



## Tilted 1

ABHale said:


> Yes move forward with the divorce. You can always stop the divorce before it takes place. Your wife has to be the one that decides to stay in the marriage because she is the one that’s wanting to leave. Then it will be your call if you want to stop the divorce or continue with it


DrD, AB giving good advice here, but you really want THIS WOMAN!! who without a thought for you and how your feeling right. The one who's crushing you in every way is this the type of woman you need, one that's kicks your teeth in at every chance. Talks the big talk but the only reason she not gone yet is the other man she's waiting for him! Your plan B my friend, and nothing more.


----------



## DrDetroit

Need quick advice...just caught an email exchange between my wife and the other man. Now understand that I saw this just after she told me she was taking the day off of work tomorrow so she could have uninterrupted time to work on her resume and apply for jobs.

The email I caught was her and the OM making plans for lunch tomorrow...and her asking him if he wanted to do a picnic.

I have emailed a pic of the email to the OMs wife. 

How should I handle?

My instinct is to confront it directly.

Or, tell her that I don't believe her that she's taking a day off merely for the resume and job application stuff and she if she admits to it and, if not, then confront.


----------



## VeryHurt

I wish I know then what I know now. You have a great advantage of being on TAM now.
My advice: Expose their affair to his wife and don’t look back. Good Move. 
Good Luck


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Need quick advice...just caught an email exchange between my wife and the other man. Now understand that I saw this just after she told me she was taking the day off of work tomorrow so she could have uninterrupted time to work on her resume and apply for jobs.
> 
> The email I caught was her and the OM making plans for lunch tomorrow...and her asking him if he wanted to do a picnic.
> 
> I have emailed a pic of the email to the OMs wife.
> 
> How should I handle?
> 
> My instinct is to confront it directly.
> 
> Or, tell her that I don't believe her that she's taking a day off merely for the resume and job application stuff and she if she admits to it and, if not, then confront.


1. Ok, so in this instance your wife already knows that you know and doesn't care DrD, nothing you do is going to get her back.

2. The time has come for you to do the unthinkable in your mind, file for divorce , l really am sorry .

3. Why are you going to confront for she is not yours any more.

4. Telling her you don't believe her gets you where exactly? These times call for your strength and the protection of your children. And if she did admit it, it would only be rubbing it in your face. There is no point to your thoughts, she doesn't want you anymore and is just using you. 

DrD, it come full circle and time to do what needs to be done, to start you with a new life because this life isn't working. As hard as it is you could catch her in the act and she would only defend the new lover.


----------



## Marc878

Id just tell her to enjoy her date with OM and file for D. 

All you're doing now is pain shopping.

Get off the hopium train


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## Tilted 1

If you would follow her? Then what beat the hell out of them both where will that get you and quit calling him a close friend of the family. He not your friend. But if you do want to do something call him and tell him you know about the picnic tomorrow but where will that bring you relief. It's your STBXW that is encouraging him with promises of sex and anything he would want.

I fear if you went there you may do something that would not be good and she just just not worth it, what would happen to your kids? Who do you want to raise them Aunt Debbie? No one, and l mean no one will raise your kids with the honor you have. Really think this over. She's not worth it she is still betraying you by setting up a date with him. 

There is only one thing you know you can live with and it is not her.


----------



## Tilted 1

Did you read that link FSJ, sent you it's perbitium what happens to a man similar to your feelings. Read it.


----------



## Affaircare

@DrDetroit, 

*Deep Sigh*. You sound very confused, and there really is a LOT to learn. Just so you get a feel for where I'm coming from, I've been married three times: 1) My 1st H cheated on me and would not stop. I didn't want to divorce, but he refused to end his affairs and wouldn't file, so eventually I did. We were married 15 years and I was in mid-30's when we divorced. 2) Met my 2nd H in early 40's and he had 5 kids and I had 2...so a large, blended family. In year 3 I lost a baby and cheated on him, but we were able to reconcile because I realized I had to change and did the work to be a different person. We were married 12 years and he died in 2017. 3) Met my current H in my mid-50's and am beyond ecstatically happy and in love. We met here on TAM. 

Now, I tell you all this because I've been learning about and dealing with infidelity and relationships and marriage for about 20 years. Obviously I was not perfect, because even though I knew about it, I still succumbed to an affair. I really was one of the very rare people who truly reconciles after having cheated--in my 20 years I think I can count on one hand the number who have done the work and become better spouses...the remainder aren't able to admit they were wrong or aren't willing to do the work to face themselves and change. So to me, I've been involved in this kind of thing for 20 years--for you it's maybe been what? 20 days? 

So I get it--you truly are confused because you never in your wildest dreams thought this was even close to possible! And honestly, in a short time, you've come a long way. I think those of us who have been here a while forget that learning takes time, and that not only are there external adjustments that we're encouraging you to make, but INTERNAL ones as well. At one time, your wife used to be your closest, best friend, and now you have to internally adjust decades of knowing someone to realizing that she wasn't who you thought at all. It's hard to change habits, ways of thinking, traditions, everything...all at once. Please just keep at it and keep going. You will gradually see a little more and more clearly every day. 

Now, let's look at your questions and see if we can't make things more clear:



> Should I actually say those words to her or live those words by not validating her feelings, by not trying to be encouraging, by not being her crying shoulder?
> 
> Also, when she is sitting at the table and crying in front of me and the kids or is having a panic attack in front of us, what do I do? Engage, be supportive or just let her live with those emotions?


You know, @DrDetroit, we are not here to "tell you what to do" any more than you can tell your wife what to do. Each person is unique and has different values and different personalities. Me? I'm short and fiesty! LOL I'm pretty peaceful and an introvert; I'm a Christian. So I'm going to be different from someone who is demure, or who loves drama and is an extrovert, or who is a secular humanist. Thing is, you need to figure out who YOU are and figure out what is right for YOU. 

Now, I can tell you what I think I would do. If my Beloved Hubby was having an emotional affair with another woman, it would devastate my heart (because I love the man dearly). It would be so against everything I know of the man, that I would be like you--just dumbstruck with disbelief. But I'm also a little fiesty, and if he came home from a bad day and expected me to feel sympathy for him while he's ripping my heart out, I do think I'd say something as well as live it. It's funny, because even if someone chooses to act poorly, I still view them as a human being worth the effort. I also simultaneously believe that we don't have to be jerks during a divorce. I believe it is possible to continue to be who I am (a peaceful, kind, loving person) but also allow the other to experience consequences. 

So for me..I would say something because I don't want there to be any confusion why I'm not being supportive and encouraging. I think I would hear him start to complain or cry or have a panic attack and say, "Dear, you know I have loved you, and I have asked you to honor the promises you made to me but you refused. Are you ready to end your affair and go no contact in all ways? If not, then I can not comfort you while you are committing adultery and tearing our family apart." 

You could also practice memorizing these kinds of responses:


> "It sucks to be you."
> 
> "You fired me from that job."
> 
> "If we were going to stay married, then this might be something we could talk about, but sadly that is not the case."
> 
> "I'm not your whipping boy anymore."





> So is my wife a wayward spouse or a walk away spouse or both? She is wayward in that she engaged in an EA, but a walkaway spouse in that she has stopped seeing the OM although continues to email).


(shrug) Dear how would I know? You are there and you don't know! LOL I would say she's both. A wayward spouse is someone who cheated. She has emotionally attached to the other man (OM), that for sure, and when two grown adults attach, they have sex. So it may be EA (emotional affair) or it may be PA (physical affair), but either way, there has been infidelity. 

A walk away spouse is someone who is or isn't having an affair and in whatever way they concoct, they just walk away from usually a longer-term marriage. Maybe they start an affair and that's the catalyst for them to walk away. Maybe they start a brewhaha and that fight is the catalyst to walk away. Maybe they close the bank accounts and just drive away. 

The one thing I think is notable in your question, though, is that it seems like you are unclear whether your wife is currently cheating or not. Let me clarify that for you. My definition of infidelity is not "How far can I go before I cross the line?" My definition of infidelity is "giving anything less than 100% of your affection, loyalty, and companionship to your spouse." I don't care if you call your wife and the OM "friends", "lovers" or "cumquats"... she is giving some percent of her affection to him, and some percent of her loyalty to him (more than to you!), and definitely some percent of her companionship to him (WAY more than you). So she's cheating. It's just that simple. She made a promise to forsake all others. FORSAKE. 

So don't kid yourself. Even if she's not sleeping with the guy, and even if she's not seeing the guy, she is emotionally there, with him. She is carrying on a fantasy via email, text, chat and whatever other electronic way they can find to flirt. That is not fidelity by my definition. Is it fidelity to you? Because if your answer is "no" then that means your wife is actively involved in adultery. 



> Ok, but what actions do I take? Move forward with the divorce?


Again, @DrDetroit, we aren't your parents, and we aren't here to tell you what you should and shouldn't do. You are a grown man, completely capable of deciding for yourself what is the proper course of action FOR YOU. What's good for @sokillme and what's good for @Emerging Buddhist are two completely different things because they are completely different men! And yet, both could teach you some things about self-worth, value, and being manly. 

In your instance, it may absolutely be against your values to be the one to file for divorce...but that in no way means you should allow her to treat you, your marriage, and your family with disdain. It may be absolutely against your values to be aggressive...but that in no way means you should remain passive while she uses you without loving you. See what I mean? You need to decide for yourself what to do and what you value and don't value. 

For what it's worth, in my first marriage my H cheated on me and I asked him to stop. He would not. I told his family and they chose to not get involved. I told my family and he chose to flip out on me for "airing our dirty laundry" but I told him all I did was tell the truth, and if his actions hadn't been dirty laundry, I would have been telling them what a great husband he was. I did not want to divorce. I gave him a year to stop, to go to counseling, to work on our marriage in a way that was mutual and he made a lot of promises but never followed through. Eventually he moved out, but still I didn't file because I didn't believe in it. But when the year was up, I re-evaluated, and I knew that he just didn't want to "be the bad guy" but he had no intention of doing anything to change. So the marriage was over by his actions--all I was doing was making legal paperwork match what was occurring. 

Make any sense?



> God damn, I am waking up, I think.
> 
> Reading that Steve K. thread, well, the last several pages, I see what some of you are saying.
> 
> I need a plan, but don't know the components or how to think about it.
> 
> 180, Let her go which also means pursuing divorce, let her suffer the emotions that her actions are causing by leaving and taking the kids with me, no mr talk or talk about marriage or divorce until she demonstrates no contact with OM.


Sounds like maybe you are beginnging to wake up. It feels like that, doesn't it? Like there were blinders on your eyes, and they're starting to fall off. So let's go over the things you mentioned: 

*180*--just to make this make more sense, the 180 stands for a 180 degree turn...a U Turn. If you envision a 360 degree circle, a 180 means you completely turn around. The idea is that you've been doing THIS and the result is that it ended up in an affair. So instead, do the exact opposite! Do THAT. Caving in and giving her everything and doing whatever you've been doing has NOT WORKED. So stop doing it, and do something different. You've been pursuing her--do the opposite, and let her go. You've been calling and texting her--do the opposite, and be quiet. You've been wanting reassurance from her that you two will be okay--do the opposite, and reassure YOURSELF that you will be okay without her. You've been moping and weak and leaving everything up to her--do the opposite, and be cheerful and strong and independent! Get it? The 180 isn't some trick to get her to come back to you--it's for you to relearn how to be you again and let go of the old habits that didn't work.

*let her go*--this is just what it sounds like. Up to now, you have maybe viewed her as someone you could "make her happy" or "make her stay" or "make her love me"...but in real life, every day even though she's your wife, she's there voluntarily. Until she wasn't there voluntarily. If she does not stay of her own volition because she wants to be there, let her go. That doesn't mean "give her permission to go away" but rather think of it like a dove in your hand. They can stay sitting on your hand, but if they choose to go, just let the dove go. 

*pursue divorce*--fill out paperwork or don't fill out paperwork, that's up to you. You decide when and how. But the concept here is a simple one: when someone makes a promise to you (as in a vow), they legally and morally owe you honoring that promise. She unilaterally decided to break that promise and destroy your heart, destroy the marriage, destroy the family, and break her kids' hearts. So "pursue divorce" means that you act in confidence as if you will not accept someone to harm you and your family by cheating. This means actions need to be taken even though you're afraid. Be BRAVE and act. 

*let her suffer emotions*--you know we choose our emotions, right? She's upset and needs to vent after a hard day of teacher assisting...and she could choose to be thankful she has any job at all...or thankful someone at home care about her enough to listen...or thankful she is there to make a difference in a kid's life. But instead she chooses to focus on what one teacher did (or didn't do) to her...or that she doesn't get paid enough...or that she has to do a chore after work...or that the kid who was so scared peed their pants. 

So no you don't have to be a mean, heartless jerk, but yes, it is reasonable to allow her to experience the emotions she chooses. And since she's fired you from the job of "husband", it is also reasonable for her to figure out for herself who to "vent" to because you aren't her support system anymore. 

*no mr talk (what's that? relationship talk?)*--I'm going to guess you mean "marriage/relationship talk, okay? If that's the case, then yep--stop bringing it up. I know to YOU it is the top, #1 thing on your mind and heart, but look where that's gotten you. 180, remember...so do the opposite. Begin to be okay without her. Begin to not "need" to talk to her about "the relationship." Sure read up yourself if you want to improve you, but don't think of it as "you need to do this or act like that for us to have a good relationship"--think of it more like "I am going to remember this so I can be a better human." She has made it clear she's done. Okay...let her be done. 

*no marriage or divorce talk until no contact*--I'm not sure where you got this from, but I think it's a MarriageBuilder thing. See, even on MB, the idea is to Plan A for a very short time to give the cheater a chance to see changes CAN be made, that you're willing, and what they will be missing. It's a short time--a few weeks maybe? During that time, the cheating spouse will very likely try to shift the blame onto you, feel entitled to things, ask for things "for the children" etc. and that is when you say "I'm making a stand for our family, and our family can not survive an active affair. Are you willing to stop the affair right now and be faithful? No? Then we aren't talking." 

See, right now, even that kind of talk would be better than "in-house separation" and letting her commit adultery right before your eyes. Tell her "no"--it's okay. A marriage can survive anger--it can NOT survive active adultery. Plus even at MB, they suggest Plan A for a short time, and then Plan B which is no contact WITH THE WAYWARD for as long as they are cheating! She's still cheating, so...



> What should I get out of the book Not Just Friends? I have it on my night stand and have just peeked through it but it's overwhelming asf.


I'll state this simply. Very often someone who is starting an emotional affair will say, "Oh we aren't cheating. S/He is Just a Friend." Well friends don't break up families or encourage immoral actions. Friends don't support hurting a spouse. Friends will tell you "no" when you need to hear it. Friends don't pursue you for sex or flirt when they know you're married. Not one thing the AP (affair partner) does is "a friend"--and the book just goes into detail about how they really are not "just friends."



> Does this mean change my direct deposit and emptying the joint savings?


*sigh*. @DrDetroit, we can not tell you what to do. Shall I say that again? You are an adult human, and you are there! We are anonymous strangers on the internet. Don't ask us what to do. But consider this: 1) there are LAWS in your state about divorce, and there may or may not be laws about what you can and can not do with joint bank accounts, etc. Therefore, it is wisdom both to talk to an attorney for advice AND to look up the laws for yourself in your state, and read them. Know for yourself what you are allowed to do and what is WISE to do. 

If it were me, I would look at it like this: your funds are specifically responsible for supporting your FAMILY. She has indicated she no longer wants to be part of your family. Thus, any things that are HER bills are now hers to take care of in any way she sees fit (for example, cell phone bill, her personal credit cards, her student loans, her car payment, her car insurance). Your funds go to provide shelter and food for the kids and anyone else willing to honor their promises to the family. So maybe what you could do that would be an action would be to actually look at all of your bills for a month, figure out where you stand on each one, and then decide if it pays for "the family" (which is anyone willing to pay the cost of fidelity for the benefit of these funds) or if it pays for her or assists in committing adultery. Once you know the bills and have listed which ones pay for what, then you can pay the mortgage if you choose, buy the groceries that you are going to cook for dinner for you and the kids, pay for the kids' cell phones ... but take her off the family plan and remove the internet where she emails her lover from home and stop paying for them to date! 

Make sense? 



> Another question...will the 180 work if the wife is checked out or believes that there's nothing about me that is valuable to her?


As I've mentioned before, the 180 is not meant to trick her into coming back to you. It's meant for you. It teaches you to stop bad habits that didn't work. It teaches you to stop clinging and let go. It teaches you how to be okay with just you and without her. And oh by the way, as a happily married lady, I am absolutely okay without my Beloved Hubby and with just me. So the 180 is just a U Turn...for you. It is irrelevant if she is checked out or sees you as non-valuable, because it doesn't have anything to do with her. It has to do with YOU and change the way you think.


----------



## DrDetroit

I confronted her, but in a passive way and I lied how I knew. I am weak. 

We just had a very long talk. I started by asking if her if she was really just taking the day off to work on her resume and apply for jobs, she said no, she was also going to a doctor's appointment and when I pressed she also said the store. So I plainly asked her if she was seeing the OM. She wants me to believe that she contacted him so she could get his objective review of her resume since she couldn't ask me. I laughed. Out loud. She wanted to tell me over and over and push and push for a mediated divorce, yet was upset that she felt like she couldn't ask for my help because I didn't appear as though I cared about how she was struggling at work or the stress she was feeling trying to escape her current job. She then tried to run with that the OM was surprised that she reached out to him because I wasn't helping her. I tried reasoning with her asking why she'd be disappointed or upset with me not offering my support when she's been clearly telling me that I am not a valued partner for her and that she wants to not just be separated, but totally done with me? WTF.

Anyway... I went on to tell her I wasn't financing her affair any longer. I explained that we wouldn't be doing the live in separation while she continued her affair. She tried wriggle by saying they weren't (and then later on saying that they were) in some sort of regular contact. She then asked if I was interested in divorcing and I said yes, she asked if I was interested in mediation and I said, of course. She was surprised by this response. I laid out a very clear path that we get this done sooner rather than later and that I would not be financing her and her affair through next summer so, in her words, the boys could adjust to the new living arrangement. Which in her mind was us keeping the house and us rotating, ie, one of us living here while the other lived in a second residence. I simply said, no, that's not going to work for me.

She repeatedly said that the affair wouldn't have happened if I didn't leave her feeling lonely by withdrawing and isolating myself. She explained that she's out of tries and out of hope. She tried so hard for years and years and years. I responded by saying that I'm not rejecting her perception, but that I didn't agree with her perspective that our marriage simply bad every year. But that's her truth.

She's very upset (crying) that she's in a position where she has no retirement and no income to support herself or herself and the kids. She kept remarking about how I'm the one with the career, I bought the house, and she can't support herself. That she ****ed herself by choosing to be a sahm, a decision we both made. She asked whether there's a possibility that we could move back to our home state so that the kids could grow up around her family. I said, sure, as a family we would, otherwise, why am I moving back? She raised the point that, right, I'd give her what she wanted so long as we stayed married, ie., she played the you're holding me hostage card.

This was not a conversation that we should have had, but I was weak and had it anyway. I was painful to hear her again tell me that I didn't step up and didn't show up in the marriage leaving her hanging and alone; that my past behaviors were abusive; and that I chose to remain angry or chose to withdraw and isolate rather than choose her and the family. I see why she thinks that. I also explained that I wasn't intentionally trying to just be the angry guy or to show her I didn't care by withdrawing. I was ****ing depressed and was in denial. I thought I was getting better only to fall back on my same behaviors. But she really believes (and I get it) that I wasn't willing to change or to work on me.

But what got her really fired up was when she asked what I was thinking about post-divorce living arrangements and I flatly said that I'm planning on keeping the house and joint 50-50 custody and parenting time. Wow...she was basically hyperventilating. She got up from the table and walked away saying, so, you get to keep the house and the boys and I lose, that I have to remain married to you so I don't end up in a one bedroom apartment. I tried at this moment to quiet things down, slow things down by reminding her to just breath, to slow down, we're not there, yet. Didn't work. Sarcastically she said good night hubby before turning around and jumping on me with her legs wrapped around smacking kisses on the head saying, see happy wife. You get to stay married.

Wow...not the way I thought this would end up tonight.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tilted 1 said:


> 1. Ok, so in this instance your wife already knows that you know and doesn't care DrD, nothing you do is going to get her back.
> 
> 2. The time has come for you to do the unthinkable in your mind, file for divorce , l really am sorry .
> 
> 3. Why are you going to confront for she is not yours any more.
> 
> 4. Telling her you don't believe her gets you where exactly? These times call for your strength and the protection of your children. And if she did admit it, it would only be rubbing it in your face. There is no point to your thoughts, she doesn't want you anymore and is just using you.
> 
> DrD, it come full circle and time to do what needs to be done, to start you with a new life because this life isn't working. As hard as it is you could catch her in the act and she would only defend the new lover.


Right and right and right and right.

She firmly believes that they're just friends and this was her just reaching out for some help on a resume. I'm a frigging HR guy and she won't ask me for help because she thinks I don't care about her because in her recent time of crisis I haven't come over to console her or offer support despite her telling me repeatedly that she doesn't love me and doesn't want to be married to me. WTF!

I was weak tonight. I shouldn't have engaged her, but my feelings overrode my brain. But, wtf, I'm seeing a new attorney tomorrow. I'm moving forward with this divorce because otherwise I'll be financing her and taking care of her while she has no responsibility at all.


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> @DrDetroit,
> 
> *Deep Sigh*. You sound very confused, and there really is a LOT to learn.


Thank your very long post and your time. I need some time to process all that you wrote, but wanted to make sure I thanked you.


----------



## Marc878

The only one keeping you in this is you. Break your hopium addiction or it'll continue.

Your only role to her is as a checkbook.


----------



## MEM2020

She doesn’t believe they are just friends.

She just wants you to believe they are.






DrDetroit said:


> Right and right and right and right.
> 
> She firmly believes that they're just friends and this was her just reaching out for some help on a resume. I'm a frigging HR guy and she won't ask me for help because she thinks I don't care about her because in her recent time of crisis I haven't come over to console her or offer support despite her telling me repeatedly that she doesn't love me and doesn't want to be married to me. WTF!
> 
> I was weak tonight. I shouldn't have engaged her, but my feelings overrode my brain. But, wtf, I'm seeing a new attorney tomorrow. I'm moving forward with this divorce because otherwise I'll be financing her and taking care of her while she has no responsibility at all.


----------



## farsidejunky

DD, friendly reminder:

Impulse control...the root of a significant amount of your problems.

Control them, lest they control you.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Tasorundo

DD, so I know I have posted several things about you being passive and not being angry. You did some good things last night, you called things what they are and you didn't let her pretend they aren't.

One thing I do think is ok, is to have some compassion as well. She is not the enemy because she wants to divorce you. Her affair is another thing, but having some compassion that she is a person that is facing a lot of uncertainty is also ok.

I think your desperation to keep her as your wife (not sure why, this is what I want you to get over and be angry about) is causing you to say things that make it seem like you are holding her hostage. There should be a fair settlement and divorce, you should not punish her or even try to punish her.

You both have struck blows to kill this marriage. Pulling the life support doesn't mean you have to continue to attack.


----------



## ButtPunch

DD

Don't feel sorry for her.

Both of your lives are going to change.

She will get half of everything. House, Retirement, Vehicles etc.

Please limit these emotional discussions in the future.

These are no win situations for you.

While telling her you want a divorce and that you aren't paying for her affair any more is a good thing.
The discussion should have ended there. 

Please do everything you can to appear detached and aloof.


----------



## sokillme

DrDetroit said:


> I confronted her, but in a passive way and I lied how I knew. I am weak.
> 
> We just had a very long talk. I started by asking if her if she was really just taking the day off to work on her resume and apply for jobs, she said no, she was also going to a doctor's appointment and when I pressed she also said the store. So I plainly asked her if she was seeing the OM. She wants me to believe that she contacted him so she could get his objective review of her resume since she couldn't ask me. I laughed. Out loud. She wanted to tell me over and over and push and push for a mediated divorce, yet was upset that she felt like she couldn't ask for my help because I didn't appear as though I cared about how she was struggling at work or the stress she was feeling trying to escape her current job. She then tried to run with that the OM was surprised that she reached out to him because I wasn't helping her. I tried reasoning with her asking why she'd be disappointed or upset with me not offering my support when she's been clearly telling me that I am not a valued partner for her and that she wants to not just be separated, but totally done with me? WTF.
> 
> Anyway... I went on to tell her I wasn't financing her affair any longer. I explained that we wouldn't be doing the live in separation while she continued her affair. She tried wriggle by saying they weren't (and then later on saying that they were) in some sort of regular contact. She then asked if I was interested in divorcing and I said yes, she asked if I was interested in mediation and I said, of course. She was surprised by this response. I laid out a very clear path that we get this done sooner rather than later and that I would not be financing her and her affair through next summer so, in her words, the boys could adjust to the new living arrangement. Which in her mind was us keeping the house and us rotating, ie, one of us living here while the other lived in a second residence. I simply said, no, that's not going to work for me.
> 
> She repeatedly said that the affair wouldn't have happened if I didn't leave her feeling lonely by withdrawing and isolating myself. She explained that she's out of tries and out of hope. She tried so hard for years and years and years. I responded by saying that I'm not rejecting her perception, but that I didn't agree with her perspective that our marriage simply bad every year. But that's her truth.
> 
> She's very upset (crying) that she's in a position where she has no retirement and no income to support herself or herself and the kids. She kept remarking about how I'm the one with the career, I bought the house, and she can't support herself. That she ****ed herself by choosing to be a sahm, a decision we both made. She asked whether there's a possibility that we could move back to our home state so that the kids could grow up around her family. I said, sure, as a family we would, otherwise, why am I moving back? She raised the point that, right, I'd give her what she wanted so long as we stayed married, ie., she played the you're holding me hostage card.
> 
> This was not a conversation that we should have had, but I was weak and had it anyway. I was painful to hear her again tell me that I didn't step up and didn't show up in the marriage leaving her hanging and alone; that my past behaviors were abusive; and that I chose to remain angry or chose to withdraw and isolate rather than choose her and the family. I see why she thinks that. I also explained that I wasn't intentionally trying to just be the angry guy or to show her I didn't care by withdrawing. I was ****ing depressed and was in denial. I thought I was getting better only to fall back on my same behaviors. But she really believes (and I get it) that I wasn't willing to change or to work on me.
> 
> But what got her really fired up was when she asked what I was thinking about post-divorce living arrangements and I flatly said that I'm planning on keeping the house and joint 50-50 custody and parenting time. Wow...she was basically hyperventilating. She got up from the table and walked away saying, so, you get to keep the house and the boys and I lose, that I have to remain married to you so I don't end up in a one bedroom apartment. I tried at this moment to quiet things down, slow things down by reminding her to just breath, to slow down, we're not there, yet. Didn't work. Sarcastically she said good night hubby before turning around and jumping on me with her legs wrapped around smacking kisses on the head saying, see happy wife. You get to stay married.
> 
> Wow...not the way I thought this would end up tonight.


You better get a good lawyer. NOW. Don't trust her. When she tells you how bad your were just say, well now you have this new guy, and that it's a good thing your divorcing if it was so bad. Think about it, you weren't good enough to stay faithful, but yet you were good enough to pay for the roof over her head. Typical entitled SAH parent. So many of them get entitled and revert to acting like spoiled brats.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DR.D be very careful. Who have you talked to in your circle? Someone who knows you and the marriage? I've watched you beat yourself up, self blame, not hold your wife accountable and panic. 

I am not saying you weren't any of things you said or she said. Realize, these are things said to keep you off balance. She was planning sex. She lied to you to go on a picnic. Sorry, you hire a lawyer and mediate. Sorry, I disagree, divorce dosn't have to adversarial, but there are two sides and she is your opponent/adversary.


----------



## sokillme

DrDetroit said:


> She firmly believes that they're just friends and this was her just reaching out for some help on a resume. I'm a frigging HR guy and she won't ask me for help because she thinks I don't care about her because in her recent time of crisis I haven't come over to console her or offer support despite her telling me repeatedly that she doesn't love me and doesn't want to be married to me. WTF!


No she doesn't your wife is a liar, you can no longer believe a word she says. From now on it seems unbelievable that is because it's a lie. It's time to give up your romantic notions you have of her and see her for what she is.


----------



## DrDetroit

I have a library copy of Not Just Friends. I'm thinking of giving it to her.


----------



## DrDetroit

She's at the dining room table crying, again.

How do I ask her to move out?


----------



## DrDetroit

Now she's telling our oldest boy that she doesn't know who to ask for help. Bull****, call your boyfriend...

Saw another email this morning where she told the OM that she couldn't lie to me because I kept asking. She them told him that explained to me that she was meeting him to discuss her resume. And that I told his wife that they meeting today. I assume they're getting their stories straight.

Im just filled with contempt right now. Zero emotion for her.


----------



## DrDetroit

I'm thinking it's time to contact her best friend and expose the ongoing affair. I'm pretty sure that she is unaware. I overheard her telling my wife that the OM should get his act together to save his marriage.


----------



## Malaise

DrDetroit said:


> I tried reasoning with her


You can't. She wants what she wants and you can't reason with someone who is lying to and manipulating you.


----------



## sokillme

Lets put this is perspective. What do you think would happen if you got sick? Do you trust her and all her lying to take care of you? What if there was a financial situation or any other kind of teamwork type thing? You need to start thinking this way because it's the truth. Your wife is no longer safe for you.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> She's at the dining room table crying, again.
> 
> How do I ask her to move out?


You can suggest she move out, but until you have a signed agreement including a move out date she still has the legal right to be there. Best thing you can do is forge forward with the divorce/mediation and work out the details ASAP.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

We told you this is how it would play, but I am glad you are seeing it for yourself. No, you are not on any timetable. Now you see nicing her back does not work. Now, you save those emails. She has inserted your child into this mess and is conspirng with her boyfriend against you. Yes, you may be withdrawn, but aren't you glad you didn't divulge your sources?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> I'm thinking it's time to contact her best friend and expose the ongoing affair. I'm pretty sure that she is unaware. I overheard her telling my wife that the OM should get his act together to save his marriage.


Nope, not until you see a lawyer and get your side of the street taken care of.


She said she wants separation and divorce. This isn't a wife who has pulled away and suddenly an affair is discovered. She wanted out. Sorry, but her friend doesn't have you or your well being in her mind. She will protect her. You have no idea what truths or lies she has told her.

Expose her to her friend after you talk to a lawyer. See, you want to do this because you think she will show her the right path. Your wife is already using lawyer speak to intimidate you. She gave up her career, she has no money, what about the kids and no retirement. Come on, do you really believe she hasn't thought, talked to someone or been advised about all of this already?

i know you are shocked, but come on this is the 21st century, you can find division of assest in about 15 second for any state.


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## DrDetroit

Damn it, my wife saw that I emailed her email exchange with the OM to myself. Damn, damn, damn. But it is funny, she's all outraged via text right now.

"You went into my email and forwarded my emails to yourself!"


----------



## Tilted 1

Perspective now DrD, if she was your happy wife with kisses on your head and legs wrapped around you. Why would she be angry with you right now. If she was remorseful and wanted to show contrition to you. Not rage!! She's still playing you be done with her. Lights out, snuff the butt out, call it a day, down that last beer and file! What more do you need to see you already know she's still lying and wants him. Her life should be an open book for you. Not anger.


----------



## MEM2020

DrD,

Do you not grasp how destructive this is for the kids? And for what? Mutual contempt does not make much of a marital foundation.




DrDetroit said:


> Damn it, my wife saw that I emailed her email exchange with the OM to myself. Damn, damn, damn. But it is funny, she's all outraged via text right now.
> 
> "You went into my email and forwarded my emails to yourself!"


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> Damn it, my wife saw that I emailed her email exchange with the OM to myself. Damn, damn, damn. But it is funny, she's all outraged via text right now.
> 
> "You went into my email and forwarded my emails to yourself!"


Sorry, but Good.

Now, you are going to see the truth. Go see a lawyer now. You need all your ducks in a row. She is already claiming abuse, this will be the violation of privacy and stalker behavior. If she has a lawyer or a legal friend they will set you up to be even more abusive. 

You should really read more threads. Men and women are terrible when they think they have the upper hand, then find out they were getting played by their "stupid" spouse. 

Go get a lawyer today. Not yesterday, not later now. She played the snot bubble anxiety attack and has now switched to anger. Watch the incoming anger, guilt trips and threats, but DO NOT RESPOND.


----------



## Chaparral

I would respond. I would ask her how the picnic is going and tell her to use protection.


----------



## Affaircare

@DrDetroit, 

If I forwarded my Beloved Hubby's emails to myself, I doubt if he would be mad because he has behaved uprightly. If I opened his email inbox and read some of his emails, I suspect his reaction would be something like "Hey what are you looking for? Maybe I can help you find it." See...it's not YOU forwarding emails or looking in your spouse's email inbox that is the problem. 

The problem is that she has ACTED in a way that is unfaithful. Her ACTIONS are the problem. Her hiding it is the problem. Her breaking her promises to you and to her own children is the problem. Her adultery is the problem. 

If she had behaved uprightly, you would have forwarded proof of her innocence to yourself. But she didn't behave uprightly. She knows that those emails show at minimum an emotional affair. She knows that they shine a light on adultery, and affairs are committed in the dark so they can be hidden and romanticized. 

So don't fall for her blame-shifting (that's where she takes the blame for her actions and shifts it onto you somehow). Don't accept her attempt to DARVO you (Deny-Attack-Reverse Victim and Offender). You can read up more on this response people have when they are held accountable for their actions here: https://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/defineDARVO.html and here: https://www.thenopebook.com/lifestyle/deny-attack-reverse-vctim-offender/


----------



## Marc878

At some point hooefully you'll learn to quit chasing your tail.

Until that happens you'll remain where you are.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

She inserted the kids ON PURPOSE. There’s a difference between divorcing and saying “mommy and daddy are going to try a different path” and “waaaaaaaaaahhhhh what Am I going to do, your dad is the bad guy.” 

This is how kids get hurt even worse in a divorce. 

Get the paperwork started and file. Yes, your behavior was wrong, but a picnic and using a kid as a venting board, she has a best friend, is outright wrong.

Oh and bet money she doesn’t know how many or for how long you have been forwarding emails. Do not take the bait. If you do answer, my response would be “long enough to know the truth” and walk away.


Let her tell on herself, don’t accept any trickle truth at all.


----------



## alte Dame

I have a few friends who have reached their 50's and are essentially unemployable in their old fields. They stayed at home to raise children and have decades now with no professional experience to point to in the fields they left in order to raise children.

As women, we feel damned if we do, damned if we don't. The ones who stay at home get burned later on when they try to reenter professional life outside the home. The ones who keep their careers going get to live their lives in fire-drill mode year after year as they try to do everything and then are told by many that they are doing their children a disservice. The SAHD faces much of the same, but has actually less in the way of societal support, so I can only imagine that it is a very lonely job.

Having said that, I will make my own feelings clear. Your WW knew what she was getting into when she chose her approach to family life. Yes, you both agreed on it and you, OP, should, of course, recognize that.

She, however, made her choices and lived by them until she reached a point where they came back to bite her. She always knew that the SAHP was at certain disadvantages in society, however unfair that is. She always knew this and still decided to do it. It's easy to see our futures as something very far down the pike until they are actually upon us.

My friends who have faced divorce after being SAHMs have managed to create new lives for themselves - one got her masters and got a good job in her 50's; another retrained in a different area and is working in that area; another refreshed her teaching credentials and is teaching again.

Being a woman who juggled everything at work and at home with two children and a constantly traveling H, I think your WW needs to stop making excuses. Yes, it's not fair, but she knew that all along.


----------



## DrDetroit

Received this via text:

FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM. I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone! You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything. I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.

So many snarky and passive aggressive ways to respond. She has several friends that she works with as well as family she could ask as well as me (an HR guy for 20 years).

Additional texts:
You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years,
You broke me
Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.


----------



## Tasorundo

Just don't respond to that.

There is nothing you can really say to her. This is what she wanted, so let her have it.


----------



## DrDetroit

As we talked last night, I told her I wouldn't finance her affair. She asked if I was ready to move on to mediation and I said yes. She was surprised. She reiterated that shes been asking me for a divorce and I simply replied by asking why are you waiting, what are you waiting for.

The good thing about blowing up her planned lunch date today with OM is that she finally contacted a mediator. Here's her text:

mediation appt has been made for Oct 14th @ 2:00. it is Columbus day, I believe you have the day off. You should recieve an email from their office soon

And followed that up with asking what day would work for me to attend parenting classes.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> Received this via text:
> 
> FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM. I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone! You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything. I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.
> 
> So many snarky and passive aggressive ways to respond. She has several friends that she works with as well as family she could ask as well as me (an HR guy for 20 years).
> 
> Additional texts:
> You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years,
> You broke me
> Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.


Did I not say guilt trip and anger? Abusive and now controlling. 

We do not kid when we say cheaters follow a script. Do not respond.

Just wait and read. Go get a pillow and scream into it. Go vent to a friend. 

Do not respond.


----------



## Tasorundo

Good, let it happen.

The only thing she is upset about is that life is hard. Well, life is hard, welcome to reality.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> As we talked last night, I told her I wouldn't finance her affair. She asked if I was ready to move on to mediation and I said yes. She was surprised. She reiterated that shes been asking me for a divorce and I simply replied by asking why are you waiting, what are you waiting for.
> 
> The good thing about blowing up her planned lunch date today with OM is that she finally contacted a mediator. Here's her text:
> 
> mediation appt has been made for Oct 14th @ 2:00. it is Columbus day, I believe you have the day off. You should recieve an email from their office soon
> 
> And followed that up with asking what day would work for me to attend parenting classes.


You respond to these types of texts with simple answers.

Yes, this day is good.
Parenting classes are fine on this day.

Zero taunts, no sarcasm and stay away from passive aggressive comments.

Remember your texts, emails and contact with your wife can be used against you. I always operate under the belief all of my emails, texts, letters and online footprint can be read by anyone.

You are about to go through a divorce, any sideways words can be used against you.


----------



## DrDetroit

I have a pre-scheduled appt with a new lawyer at 3 today. Trying to figure out what I should focus on.

Having read deep into Jar's thread yesterday, when I agreed to mediation, my wife indicated that we would start by deciding a division of assets. I replied that I would love to do mediation and discuss how to resolve our differences in the marriage. Boy was she surprised. She replied that mediation isn't marriage counseling and I simply said that I knew that.


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> @DrDetroit,
> 
> If I forwarded my Beloved Hubby's emails to myself, I doubt if he would be mad because he has behaved uprightly. If I opened his email inbox and read some of his emails, I suspect his reaction would be something like "Hey what are you looking for? Maybe I can help you find it." See...it's not YOU forwarding emails or looking in your spouse's email inbox that is the problem.
> 
> The problem is that she has ACTED in a way that is unfaithful. Her ACTIONS are the problem. Her hiding it is the problem. Her breaking her promises to you and to her own children is the problem. Her adultery is the problem.
> 
> If she had behaved uprightly, you would have forwarded proof of her innocence to yourself. But she didn't behave uprightly. She knows that those emails show at minimum an emotional affair. She knows that they shine a light on adultery, and affairs are committed in the dark so they can be hidden and romanticized.
> 
> So don't fall for her blame-shifting (that's where she takes the blame for her actions and shifts it onto you somehow). Don't accept her attempt to DARVO you (Deny-Attack-Reverse Victim and Offender). You can read up more on this response people have when they are held accountable for their actions here: https://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/defineDARVO.html and here: https://www.thenopebook.com/lifestyle/deny-attack-reverse-vctim-offender/


Thank you for the resources.

When we talked about mediation last night, I replied taking a cue from your responses in Jar's thread and indicated that I would do mediation so we could mediate the differences in our marriage. The look was priceless. Her reply was to say that mediation is not marriage counseling. I shut up.


----------



## Marc878

At this point what marriage are you trying to save?

Your wife has told you and shown you everything you need to know but yet you keep yourself stuck. Why?


----------



## alte Dame

Your WW is sitting in the victim's chair and isn't taking responsibility for her own choices in life. She didn't have to marry you. She didn't have to have children with you. She didn't have to tolerate what she sees as your bad behavior. She didn't have to move with you. She didn't have to be a SAHM.

When you stop buying into this is when you will start to feel free. My H was clearly advantaged in our M for many years, but he didn't have me in chains. I made my own choices.

Sometimes there are no good options, just the least bad. She needs to stop wailing and get to work for herself.

And you, Dr.D? You need to follow the advice here and 180 her. Stop taking the bait in the hope that she will R. Ironically, the less you take the bait, the greater your chances of R.


----------



## sokillme

DrDetroit said:


> Damn it, my wife saw that I emailed her email exchange with the OM to myself. Damn, damn, damn. But it is funny, she's all outraged via text right now.
> 
> "You went into my email and forwarded my emails to yourself!"


Reply back with all the rotten things from her email. Point out what she said was going on in your discussion. "You said this", then post quotes from her email that show it's lies. 

Tell her how hurt you are that she actively had an affair and was lying to you for months. Remind her of where started in the beginning of your relationship. At the end tell her this is why you want a divorce not because you are mean or that you want to punish her but that you can no longer trust her word, that she is not safe. Then ask her to please respect your wishes and help you figure out the fair way to move forward (Don't be overly emotional. Be very disappointing and hurt). Tell her he can have her. Even if you are not sure you want to divorce, just to see how she reacts if there is any humanity left in her. 

Maybe she will wake up and be fair now that the level of ******* she is has been exposed.

Never mind it seems like you are past that. Your wife is the worst by the way.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> I have a pre-scheduled appt with a new lawyer at 3 today. Trying to figure out what I should focus on.
> 
> Having read deep into Jar's thread yesterday, when I agreed to mediation, my wife indicated that we would start by deciding a division of assets. I replied that I would love to do mediation and discuss how to resolve our differences in the marriage. Boy was she surprised. She replied that mediation isn't marriage counseling and I simply said that I knew that.


See, she wants a divorce. She is telling you, in no uncertain terms, she is done. So, give her what she wants; a divorce. No, not bending over backwards, not settling and not backing down. Yes, there will be compromises, but not ones that hurt you or the kids. You want 50/50, don’t settle for summers unless she gives up something equally huge like Alimony. 

Yes, as a single father at one time, screw anyone telling me my parenting time isn’t as important as a mom’s “cuz she gave birth to the child(ren).”


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Need quick advice...just caught an email exchange between my wife and the other man. Now understand that I saw this just after she told me she was taking the day off of work tomorrow so she could have uninterrupted time to work on her resume and apply for jobs.
> 
> The email I caught was her and the OM making plans for lunch tomorrow...and her asking him if he wanted to do a picnic.
> 
> I have emailed a pic of the email to the OMs wife.
> 
> How should I handle?
> 
> My instinct is to confront it directly.
> 
> Or, tell her that I don't believe her that she's taking a day off merely for the resume and job application stuff and she if she admits to it and, if not, then confront.


OM is supposed to be a “friend”. Text him and tell him if he goes through with the lunch date that you will do all in your power that your kids are no longer doing anything with his. That you will expose the affair to everyone, scorched earth.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Received this via text:
> 
> FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM. I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone! You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything. I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.
> 
> So many snarky and passive aggressive ways to respond. She has several friends that she works with as well as family she could ask as well as me (an HR guy for 20 years).
> 
> Additional texts:
> You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years,
> You broke me
> Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.


My ex wife literally called me the day after our divorce was final because she wanted me to pay for her lawyer to divorce me. 

And was baffled when I said no, and added that this is what divorce means - that I don’t have to help her with anything ever again. 

When she started to whine about not having any money, and added that if I payed for her lawyer, maybe we could talk about our relationship. 

I laughed, my girlfriend next to me laughed, my ex asked who that was and how dare I be dating someone else... I told her to never call me again and hung up on her. I blocked her number and we’ve never spoken since. 

That girlfriend became my current wife. 

You can’t block her on everything - you have kids together - but you can limit your conversations to logistics only for the kids. And be prepared for even more “poor me.”

No more discussions. No debates. No tit for tat. Logistics about the kids and divorce or no discussion. 

I heavily suggest you do even that over text only.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

sokillme said:


> Reply back with all the rotten things from her email. Point out what she said was going on in your discussion. "You said this", then post quotes from her email that show it's lies.
> 
> Tell her how hurt you are that she actively had an affair and was lying to you for months. Remind her of where started in the beginning of your relationship. At the end tell her this is why you want a divorce not because you are mean or that you want to punish her but that you can no longer trust her word, that she is not safe. Then ask her to please respect your wishes and help you figure out the fair way to move forward (Don't be overly emotional. Be very disappointing and hurt). Tell her he can have her. Even if you are not sure you want to divorce, just to see how she reacts if there is any humanity left in her.
> 
> Maybe she will wake up and be fair now that the level of ******* she is has been exposed.
> 
> Never mind it seems like you are past that. Your wife is the worst by the way.


No, sorry, in this case no. He’s seen her reaction. She griped about the email violation, went to their child and laid a guilt trip on him how he is controlling. He has all the proof he needs, plus the picnic and preparing the OM to cover for his wife. 

She did NOTHING to help him. NOTHING. He doesn’t need to put it in her face, she knows what she wrote, get mediation done and get her out of his main life. She will always be a part, but he won’t have the same level of drama and pain he does now.


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## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Now she's telling our oldest boy that she doesn't know who to ask for help. Bull****, call your boyfriend...
> 
> 
> 
> Saw another email this morning where she told the OM that she couldn't lie to me because I kept asking. She them told him that explained to me that she was meeting him to discuss her resume. And that I told his wife that they meeting today. I assume they're getting their stories straight.
> 
> 
> 
> Im just filled with contempt right now. Zero emotion for her.


Bovine excrement.

If the last statement were true, you would not be contemplating giving her a copy of the book.

Can a vessel navigate two directions at once and expect to reach its destination?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DrDetroit

Continuing to text me:
I understand that you do not want to wait and time the divorce when I think it would be easiest on the boys. We need to take the parenting classes. There are 4 classes at $280. If we miss one then we have to restart and pay the fee again.


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Received this via text:
> 
> FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM. I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone! You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything. I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.
> 
> So many snarky and passive aggressive ways to respond. She has several friends that she works with as well as family she could ask as well as me (an HR guy for 20 years).
> 
> Additional texts:
> You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years,
> You broke me
> Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.


Well... as much has I don't particularly care for her actions towards you, she is dead on accurate about one thing:

You ARE being controlling. Period. 

LET. HER. GO. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> I have a pre-scheduled appt with a new lawyer at 3 today. Trying to figure out what I should focus on.
> 
> Having read deep into Jar's thread yesterday, when I agreed to mediation, my wife indicated that we would start by deciding a division of assets. I replied that I would love to do mediation and discuss how to resolve our differences in the marriage. Boy was she surprised. She replied that mediation isn't marriage counseling and I simply said that I knew that.


Controlling. Stop it.

She wants out. Let her.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DrDetroit

farsidejunky said:


> Bovine excrement.
> 
> If the last statement were true, you would not be contemplating giving her a copy of the book.
> 
> Can a vessel navigate two directions at once and expect to reach its destination?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I see your point. And you're right. A more accurate statement would have been, I have very little desire to reconcile and very little emotional love or respect for her.


----------



## DrDetroit

farsidejunky said:


> Well... as much has I don't particularly care for her actions towards you, she is dead on accurate about one thing:
> 
> You ARE being controlling. Period.
> 
> LET. HER. GO.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Help me understand how I am being controlling. I'm genuinely interested. I don't want to be controlling.


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> I see your point. And you're right. A more accurate statement would have been, I have very little desire to reconcile and very little emotional love or respect for her.


Then why the **** can't you let go of the wheel?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> I have a pre-scheduled appt with a new lawyer at 3 today. Trying to figure out what I should focus on.
> 
> Having read deep into Jar's thread yesterday, when I agreed to mediation, my wife indicated that we would start by deciding a division of assets. I replied that I would love to do mediation and discuss how to resolve our differences in the marriage. Boy was she surprised. She replied that mediation isn't marriage counseling and I simply said that I knew that.


Start with custody as that is what should be more important to you than anything else. Don't settle for anything less than 50-50. Division of assets is easy in the end - add up your assets, subtract your debts, and divide by 2. Most districts have a straight line calculation for alimony and support based on your income. Really that is the easy part, but focus on your kids and their needs first.


----------



## DrDetroit

farsidejunky said:


> Then why the **** can't you let go of the wheel?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I have. I've agreed to mediation and am seeing an atty intending to get the filing moving. Hope to get the filing done before mediation on 10-14,but if not will cancel the mediation.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> Start with custody as that is what should be more important to you than anything else. Don't settle for anything less than 50-50. Division of assets is easy in the end - add up your assets, subtract your debts, and divide by 2. Most districts have a straight line calculation for alimony and support based on your income. Really that is the easy part, but focus on your kids and their needs first.


Thank you for the advice.


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Help me understand how I am being controlling. I'm genuinely interested. I don't want to be controlling.


She has effectively broken up with you, even if the divorce is not actually been initiated yet.

She has given zero indication but she wants to remain married to you.

Yet the only tangible steps that you have taken in this situation are to redirect her back to the marriage. 

Exposure. 

Still snooping. 

Using conversation to try and get her to recommit to the marriage.

Considering trying to give her books to read to change her mind.

All of that is controlling behavior.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DrDetroit

Time to set up a new bank acct and change my direct deposit. I will also empty half the joint checking and savings into my new acct.


----------



## farsidejunky

Here's the point, DD. There is a fine line between fighting for the marriage and abuse.

While you have not quite crossed over into the latter, you are certainly flirting with it.

The only thing it would take for you to cross that line is to refuse to let go.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Continuing to text me:
> I understand that you do not want to wait and time the divorce when I think it would be easiest on the boys. We need to take the parenting classes. There are 4 classes at $280. If we miss one then we have to restart and pay the fee again.


Bull**** translator:

In order to keep control I'm gonna guilt trip you by using the kids now.

Learn to ignore. I would not agree to classes. You have your time, she has hers. It is just that simple. Better start standing on your own two feet


----------



## Affaircare

DrDetroit said:


> Received this via text:
> 
> FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM. I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone! You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything. I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.
> 
> So many snarky and passive aggressive ways to respond. She has several friends that she works with as well as family she could ask as well as me (an HR guy for 20 years).
> 
> Additional texts:
> You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years,
> You broke me
> Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.



First, no need to respond. If you got that text from the mailman, would you respond? If you got that text from the teller at the bank would you respond? You might say "Who is this?" but that's about it.  Same here. Whatever she says and does, just ask yourself first, "How would I respond if this was the cashier at the grocery store?" and then do that. 

Next, let me translate for you. 

*HER*: FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM. 
*Reality*: She was planning to meet the OM for a picnic, not for help with her resume. So this resume thing is smoke & mirrors AT BEST, and cover for adultery at worst. Don't pity her because she won't be "getting help" for someone outside the marriage.

*HER*: I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone! 
*Reality*: She had a husband to get help from and a family (you and the kids) to get love and support from, and she made the choice to throw that all away for the thrill of having a picnic with OM. Okay... that's the choice she made. Also, if she really does not want to be married, she still has her parents, her siblings, her friends, and some of her co-workers who will support her. Finally, she is an adult. We are all in this alone to some degree. Even if we are married, we are side-by-side with our partner, not codependent. So, yep, as a grown up you are in this alone.

*HER*: You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything. 
*Reality*: Nope. You can't stop her from having an affair. You can't stop her from divorcing you. You can't stop her from choosing to move out. You can't stop her from doing anything that she unilaterally decides to do! You don't have control. But you can respond to what she chooses, and you don't need to fund adultery. If she chooses to commit adultery, she can figure out how to fund that all by herself. SHE controls HERSELF. 

*HER*: I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.
*Reality*: She will suffer, that is true, but she suffers because she is being allowed to experience the natural consequences of her choices. Every decision, EVERY SINGLE ONE, has a cost and a benefit. She wants the benefits without having to pay the cost, and that's not how life works. She will suffer--but she could just as easily choose a route that results in less suffering, or she could choose to willingly acknowledge that the cost of adultery is losing some of what she holds dear. 

*HER*: You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years.
*Reality*: NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. You had an offer to move to a different place, and the two of you discussed it together, and she agreed. Cost and benefit, remember? The benefit was that you had a better job and the two of you had a chance to "start over" in a new place--the cost was that it was farther from hometown and family. She voluntarily AGREED to move, and thus she again is bucking against being held accountable for her own choices. 

*HER*: You broke me. Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.
*Reality*: She is a grown adult, and she is responsible for supporting herself. In the past, she participated in supporting herself by choosing a life partner who earned sufficiently for the lifestyle she likes. The agreement was that you work like a dog and earn...she is a SAHM and cares for the kids and the home. You contributed and she contributed and that is how she supported herself. The cost of that arrangement is FIDELITY. Well...SHE broke that arrangement, not you, and she is in crisis because the method of support that SHE ARRANGED (you), she decided to END. That means, as an adult, she is responsible to find another way to support herself. [NOTE: since the arrangement is broken, as an adult, you'll have to find another way to care for the kids and the home--maybe a cleaning service and those delivered home dinners? An aupair?]

Again, @DrDetroit, don't fall for her attempts to DARVO. She's trying to be the victim when she is the one who perpetrated the violence to the family unit. If she's going to wallow like this, let her wallow. Allow her to experience the cost of chosing adultery. It's okay. 

Finally, note to self: mediation is not meeting with someone to negotiate how to fix the marriage. That would be more like marriage counseling. Mediation in divorce terminology is you and her agreeing to all you can on asset and debt division, and then taking the 3-4 things on which you can't agree to a mediator and the mediator gives you suggestions like "I know the judges and they will likely divide it this way..." and giving you a couple different options. Then if you can, you pick the one that is tolerable to you (if any).


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> Continuing to text me:
> I understand that you do not want to wait and time the divorce when I think it would be easiest on the boys. We need to take the parenting classes. There are 4 classes at $280. If we miss one then we have to restart and pay the fee again.


You must be in a state like mine. Do all the hoop jumping and get it over as quick as possible. Also, in my state, all four doesn't mean together. Make sure you double and triple check everything she says to you.

Ignore, “easiest on the boys.” Easiest on the boys is marriage counseling, anger management, work on the marriage and not divorcing.

I want you to take a mental note of something.

Do you notice how quickly she has all of these things set up and all of the information? 
Notice how she was dragging her feet until she realized, you were no longer playing? 
Wasn’t she hyperventilating, crying, confused and all woah is me?

Kind of funny how quick this is moving in less than 24 hours, no....????


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> First, no need to respond. If you got that text from the mailman, would you respond? If you got that text from the teller at the bank would you respond? You might say "Who is this?" but that's about it.  Same here. Whatever she says and does, just ask yourself first, "How would I respond if this was the cashier at the grocery store?" and then do that.
> 
> Next, let me translate for you.
> 
> *HER*: FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM.
> *Reality*: She was planning to meet the OM for a picnic, not for help with her resume. So this resume thing is smoke & mirrors AT BEST, and cover for adultery at worst. Don't pity her because she won't be "getting help" for someone outside the marriage.
> 
> *HER*: I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone!
> *Reality*: She had a husband to get help from and a family (you and the kids) to get love and support from, and she made the choice to throw that all away for the thrill of having a picnic with OM. Okay... that's the choice she made. Also, if she really does not want to be married, she still has her parents, her siblings, her friends, and some of her co-workers who will support her. Finally, she is an adult. We are all in this alone to some degree. Even if we are married, we are side-by-side with our partner, not codependent. So, yep, as a grown up you are in this alone.
> 
> *HER*: You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything.
> *Reality*: Nope. You can't stop her from having an affair. You can't stop her from divorcing you. You can't stop her from choosing to move out. You can't stop her from doing anything that she unilaterally decides to do! You don't have control. But you can respond to what she chooses, and you don't need to fund adultery. If she chooses to commit adultery, she can figure out how to fund that all by herself. SHE controls HERSELF.
> 
> *HER*: I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.
> *Reality*: She will suffer, that is true, but she suffers because she is being allowed to experience the natural consequences of her choices. Every decision, EVERY SINGLE ONE, has a cost and a benefit. She wants the benefits without having to pay the cost, and that's not how life works. She will suffer--but she could just as easily choose a route that results in less suffering, or she could choose to willingly acknowledge that the cost of adultery is losing some of what she holds dear.
> 
> *HER*: You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years.
> *Reality*: NOPE. NOPE. NOPE. You had an offer to move to a different place, and the two of you discussed it together, and she agreed. Cost and benefit, remember? The benefit was that you had a better job and the two of you had a chance to "start over" in a new place--the cost was that it was farther from hometown and family. She voluntarily AGREED to move, and thus she again is bucking against being held accountable for her own choices.
> 
> *HER*: You broke me. Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.
> *Reality*: She is a grown adult, and she is responsible for supporting herself. In the past, she participated in supporting herself by choosing a life partner who earned sufficiently for the lifestyle she likes. The agreement was that you work like a dog and earn...she is a SAHM and cares for the kids and the home. You contributed and she contributed and that is how she supported herself. The cost of that arrangement is FIDELITY. Well...SHE broke that arrangement, not you, and she is in crisis because the method of support that SHE ARRANGED (you), she decided to END. That means, as an adult, she is responsible to find another way to support herself. [NOTE: since the arrangement is broken, as an adult, you'll have to find another way to care for the kids and the home--maybe a cleaning service and those delivered home dinners? An aupair?]
> 
> Again, @DrDetroit, don't fall for her attempts to DARVO. She's trying to be the victim when she is the one who perpetrated the violence to the family unit. If she's going to wallow like this, let her wallow. Allow her to experience the cost of chosing adultery. It's okay.
> 
> Finally, note to self: mediation is not meeting with someone to negotiate how to fix the marriage. That would be more like marriage counseling. Mediation in divorce terminology is you and her agreeing to all you can on asset and debt division, and then taking the 3-4 things on which you can't agree to a mediator and the mediator gives you suggestions like "I know the judges and they will likely divide it this way..." and giving you a couple different options. Then if you can, you pick the one that is tolerable to you (if any).


Wow. The effort you put into these posts is really incredible. Thank you.

I would to send her your interpretations of her texts. 

On the other hand, Id be happy just texting her that my chocolate muffin I got this morning was delicious. But I know better.

In Jar's thread, I maybe misread, but I thought you had suggested to use mediation to resolve differences in the marriage?


----------



## DrDetroit

farsidejunky said:


> Here's the point, DD. There is a fine line between fighting for the marriage and abuse.
> 
> While you have not quite crossed over into the latter, you are certainly flirting with it.
> 
> The only thing it would take for you to cross that line is to refuse to let go.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I am letting go. Time to go dark, run a real 180 to straighten myself out, get a life, and prepare to be on my own.


----------



## Affaircare

DrDetroit said:


> Continuing to text me:
> I understand that you do not want to wait and time the divorce when I think it would be easiest on the boys. We need to take the parenting classes. There are 4 classes at $280. If we miss one then we have to restart and pay the fee again.


Please bear in mind that you do not have to take the 4 classes together. They schedule several options for Class 1, several for Class 2, and so on, and she can take the 4 classes when it is convenient for her, and you can take the 4 classes when it is convenient for you. In other words, she could do the next 4 Mondays at 10am while you do the next 4 Tuesdays at 7pm. 

She can not make you take them "with her" and she can no longer tell you when to take them or control whether you miss one or not. If you choose to miss one for an important reason and pay the fee again, it's your money and you can choose that. She pays for HER $280 fee and you pay for YOUR $280 fee. Get it? You are not a team anymore, and as much as she doesn't want you controlling her, she also can not control you!

NOTE: You don't have to be an ass about it. You can be kind and even courteous. You just don't "HAVE TO" do it when she wants on her schedule. You are in charge of you--especially now.


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> Please bear in mind that you do not have to take the 4 classes together. They schedule several options for Class 1, several for Class 2, and so on, and she can take the 4 classes when it is convenient for her, and you can take the 4 classes when it is convenient for you. In other words, she could do the next 4 Mondays at 10am while you do the next 4 Tuesdays at 7pm.
> 
> She can not make you take them "with her" and she can no longer tell you when to take them or control whether you miss one or not. If you choose to miss one for an important reason and pay the fee again, it's your money and you can choose that. She pays for HER $280 fee and you pay for YOUR $280 fee. Get it? You are not a team anymore, and as much as she doesn't want you controlling her, she also can not control you!
> 
> NOTE: You don't have to be an ass about it. You can be kind and even courteous. You just don't "HAVE TO" do it when she wants on her schedule. You are in charge of you--especially now.


Yeah, I was just reading about the program. While they encourage that the parents and children all attend together it's not required. But they run parallel classes so parents don't have to be in the same group on the same night.


----------



## DrDetroit

I feel compelled to email or text her mom, dad and his wife, brother, both sisters, and some select friends to expose this affair with a married man.

It doesn't serve a purpose, though, for me other than emotional gratification. Well, and to acknowledge to them that while I was negligent in my husbandly duties, I have been getting help, changing, and making progress that they have all seen and wanted very badly to reconcile the marriage. However, she has continued the affair and O cannot continue to support that financially or provide for her while she is doing so.

What a weird feeling.


----------



## Affaircare

DrDetroit said:


> Time to set up a new bank acct and change my direct deposit. I will also empty half the joint checking and savings into my new acct.


From a financial and kindness point of view, may I make a radical suggestion? Remember how I told you to gather the household bills for the month and determine which ones are just typical house bills and which ones might be financing the affair? I recommend you do this before you do other banking, and here's why. 

If you just suddenly stop all access to all funds, and empty accounts, etc. it could be seen as a nasty move in court. But if you make your own new account, and say "I have a list of all the bills, and I see that A, B, and C are just household bills, so I agree to continue to finance those. I see that X has been used to further your affair and I won't pay for that. I see that Y was used to further the affair and I'm stopping that. So into the joint account, I'll be depositing TOTAL and setting everything up on auto-pay for the sole purpose of paying A, B, and C" then you'll be seen as more reasonable. If she wants to use her cell phone for adultery, she can pay for the phone and the cell service! But you continued to make sure there was a roof over heads and food on the table...thereby there's no leg to stand on claiming you financially blahblahblah. Make sense?

I would say something like make a bank account in your name only, put your direct deposit there, list the bills, find out which ones are household bills, and arrange for you new account to auto-transfer that bill total to the joint account. After that, empty half the joint checking and savings into your personal account. The idea is that you can then say "she had her half, and I continued to pay for normal household bills" and no one (attorney or judge) could claim otherwise. She should also set up her own personal account and have her own paycheck direct deposited to her account. It would be ideal if you two split the cost of the normal household bills, but since you have a salary that is much larger than hers, I suspect for now doing it as I suggested would be pretty acceptable.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Received this via text:
> 
> FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM. I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone! You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything. I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.
> 
> So many snarky and passive aggressive ways to respond. She has several friends that she works with as well as family she could ask as well as me (an HR guy for 20 years).
> 
> Additional texts:
> You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years,
> You broke me
> Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.


You did, blah... blah... And you, blah..... blah....blah. you, you, you, I'm the victim..... Poor little ole me....

Don't fall for this type of crap by the spoon full!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> I feel compelled to email or text her mom, dad and his wife, brother, both sisters, and some select friends to expose this affair with a married man.


No. No. No. This is petty vindictiveness and the hard part, right after anger, to control. You want payback. Payback is having a good relationship with your kids, a conflict free home, enjoying work and being happy. 

She had every right to be angry and feel she was in control, until she cheated. At that point, whether it was an exit affair or not, she was controlling and manipulating you. You could be done with the four classes and already in mediation, but you CHOSE to leave it in her hands


> It doesn't serve a purpose, though, for me other than emotional gratification. Well, and to acknowledge to them that while I was negligent in my husbandly duties, I have been getting help, changing, and making progress that they have all seen and wanted very badly to reconcile the marriage. However, she has continued the affair and O cannot continue to support that financially or provide for her while she is doing so.
> 
> What a weird feeling.


Awesome, the next woman you meet will have a happy well adjusted boyfriend or husband. These family members are not your wife and didn’t live inside your marriage.
You admit you broke the marriage and she was done. 
You changed and she was still done.

Quit wallowing, you are doing the right thing by working on you. It’ll hurt, but let her go. 


.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> I see your point. And you're right. A more accurate statement would have been, I have very little desire to reconcile and very little emotional love or respect for her.


DrD , it not too late to send it and it will keep her off balance. Just what she is doing to you.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> *Now she's telling our oldest boy that she doesn't know who to ask for help.* Bull****, call your boyfriend...
> 
> Saw another email this morning where she told the OM that she couldn't lie to me because I kept asking. She them told him that explained to me that she was meeting him to discuss her resume. And that I told his wife that they meeting today. I assume they're getting their stories straight.
> 
> Im just filled with contempt right now. Zero emotion for her.


All this is theatrics. It's all done for show and to make your son think you are the villain. 

Take your son aside and explain to him, in simple terms, that his mom is seeing another man and that you cannot be married to her any longer. Tell him you love him and that you will never abandon him, even when his mom is acting life a child. He's the most scared of all of you.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> I feel compelled to email or text her mom, dad and his wife, brother, both sisters, and some select friends to expose this affair with a married man.
> 
> It doesn't serve a purpose, though, for me other than emotional gratification. Well, and to acknowledge to them that while I was negligent in my husbandly duties, I have been getting help, changing, and making progress that they have all seen and wanted very badly to reconcile the marriage. However, she has continued the affair and O cannot continue to support that financially or provide for her while she is doing so.
> 
> What a weird feeling.


Don’t do it. Tell your supporters. Her family probably won’t care, or they'll only care until she makes up some kind of story about it.

Instead, use the threat of exposing her to make sure she agrees to a fair settlement. 

I’m an *******, and as soon as the ink was dry on that, I’d expose her anyway, but that’s me.


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## niceguy47460

I would expose anyway . It might make you feel better


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## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> Received this via text:
> 
> FYI, I will not be getting help with my resume from OM. I will have to get through this completely alone without the help of anyone! You win! You have all the control in my life! You control everything. I will suffer because of you in all aspects of my life.
> 
> So many snarky and passive aggressive ways to respond. She has several friends that she works with as well as family she could ask as well as me (an HR guy for 20 years).
> 
> Additional texts:
> You moved me from family, you checked out of our family for years,
> You broke me
> Now i am in crisis because i have no one and no way to support myself.



"_Dear Soon-to-Be-Ex-Wife, 

Please do not send me anymore of these texts or e-mails. I will provide you with the e-mail of my lawyer. You may e-mail him directly when it comes to questions regarding the divorce proceedings. From today on I will only converse with you about household matters and matters directly related to the care of our son, and nothing else. Any text or e-mail I receive of this type will be immediately forwarded to my attorney. 

Yours truly,

Used-To-Give-A-Damn"_

The romantic and loving side of your marriage is dead. She fired you. Now you must end the business/legal side of the marriage, and to do that you must be businesslike and unemotional.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Affaircare said:


> From a financial and kindness point of view, may I make a radical suggestion? Remember how I told you to gather the household bills for the month and determine which ones are just typical house bills and which ones might be financing the affair? I recommend you do this before you do other banking, and here's why.
> 
> If you just suddenly stop all access to all funds, and empty accounts, etc. it could be seen as a nasty move in court. But if you make your own new account, and say "I have a list of all the bills, and I see that A, B, and C are just household bills, so I agree to continue to finance those. I see that X has been used to further your affair and I won't pay for that. I see that Y was used to further the affair and I'm stopping that. So into the joint account, I'll be depositing TOTAL and setting everything up on auto-pay for the sole purpose of paying A, B, and C" then you'll be seen as more reasonable. If she wants to use her cell phone for adultery, she can pay for the phone and the cell service! But you continued to make sure there was a roof over heads and food on the table...thereby there's no leg to stand on claiming you financially blahblahblah. Make sense?
> 
> I would say something like make a bank account in your name only, put your direct deposit there, list the bills, find out which ones are household bills, and arrange for you new account to auto-transfer that bill total to the joint account. After that, empty half the joint checking and savings into your personal account. The idea is that you can then say "she had her half, and I continued to pay for normal household bills" and no one (attorney or judge) could claim otherwise. She should also set up her own personal account and have her own paycheck direct deposited to her account. It would be ideal if you two split the cost of the normal household bills, but since you have a salary that is much larger than hers, I suspect for now doing it as I suggested would be pretty acceptable.


I like all of this except, do not throw the affair in her face. There really is no need to say, “this is because of the affair.” It will be to emotional for both of you. 

Let’s say she really believes she didn’t cheat, you just made it that much more antagonistic.

As the acronym states, K.I.S.S. “Keep it simple stupid.”

“Here are the household bills, you might want to look for a part time job for these extra ones.” 

You are going to be paying some form of child support, unless you get primary custody and alimony. You need to start preparing now.


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## DrDetroit

I'm not sure whether I should respond via text or just wait until I get home. But here's another text:

please let me know what parenting classes work best for your schedule so I can sign us up. We cannot move foreard with the divorce without them and we both have to be present. Although im not sure if we have to be at the same one or if we can do it seperate.

I suppose I should just pick some dates and tell her via text.

Damn it I want to be snarky and vindictive. But I know that doesn't help and doesn't really make me happy.


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## Marduk

It will also drive her mental that she can't emotionally trigger you any more. The opposite of love isn't anger, it's apathy.

Time to at least fake apathy until you can make apathy.


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## phillybeffandswiss

niceguy47460 said:


> I would expose anyway . It might make you feel better


No. He’s in the long game now.



DrDetroit said:


> I'm not sure whether I should respond via text or just wait until I get home. But here's another text:
> 
> please let me know what parenting classes work best for your schedule so I can sign us up. We cannot move foreard with the divorce without them and we both have to be present. Although im not sure if we have to be at the same one or if we can do it seperate.
> 
> I suppose I should just pick some dates and tell her via text.
> 
> Damn it I want to be snarky and vindictive. But I know that doesn't help and doesn't really make me happy.




Keep reading threads, unless you are reconciling I’ve seen this backfire horribly in a divorce. Yes, much more than it worked. She tipped her hand out of anger. She has shown you EXACTLY what she might pull in court. 

“Sorry, your honor, I am a SAHM who moved away from family, gave up my career, remained with an abusive husband, he outed my problems to my family, spied on me while I was looking for a job and is being controlling.”

Can you HONESTLY disprove my assertion above in court? 

Don’t get goaded by people, myself included, who have nothing to lose in your life. 

Trust me DrD, your gut was correct when you were logical and not off balance. Right now, the anger you’ve been working on is creeping back in. Don’t succumb to your base desires right now. 

FSJ is right.

Control the situation, not your wife.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> I'm not sure whether I should respond via text or just wait until I get home. But here's another text:
> 
> please let me know what parenting classes work best for your schedule so I can sign us up. We cannot move foreard with the divorce without them and we both have to be present. Although im not sure if we have to be at the same one or if we can do it seperate.
> 
> I suppose I should just pick some dates and tell her via text.
> 
> Damn it I want to be snarky and vindictive. But I know that doesn't help and doesn't really make me happy.


Actually, this is a text you _can_ respond to, because it relates directly to the upkeep of your son. Pick some dates and keep it short. Don't be snarky. Be like Spock. Think Spock. How would he react? Cold and logical. 

Remember, the 180 is about keeping up the appearance of DGAFF (_don't give a fiddler's f*ck_).


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> I feel compelled to email or text her mom, dad and his wife, brother, both sisters, and some select friends to expose this affair with a married man.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't serve a purpose, though, for me other than emotional gratification. Well, and to acknowledge to them that while I was negligent in my husbandly duties, I have been getting help, changing, and making progress that they have all seen and wanted very badly to reconcile the marriage. However, she has continued the affair and O cannot continue to support that financially or provide for her while she is doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> What a weird feeling.


This is controlling your impulses.

Feel...think...act.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> I'm not sure whether I should respond via text or just wait until I get home. But here's another text:
> 
> 
> 
> please let me know what parenting classes work best for your schedule so I can sign us up. We cannot move foreard with the divorce without them and we both have to be present. Although im not sure if we have to be at the same one or if we can do it seperate.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I should just pick some dates and tell her via text.
> 
> 
> 
> Damn it I want to be snarky and vindictive. But I know that doesn't help and doesn't really make me happy.


Again, this is you staying ahead of your impulses.

This is a business transaction. Treat it as such.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Affaircare

DrDetroit said:


> please let me know what parenting classes work best for your schedule so I can sign us up. We cannot move foreard with the divorce without them and we both have to be present. Although im not sure if we have to be at the same one or if we can do it seperate.


How about: "I will schedule myself for my 4 classes and you go ahead and schedule yourself. I would be happy to let you know the date when my 4 classes should be completed."

Then go ahead and schedule your 4 classes and tell her "All will be done by Oct. 2nd" or whatever the last class is. The end.


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## honcho

DrDetroit said:


> I'm not sure whether I should respond via text or just wait until I get home. But here's another text:
> 
> please let me know what parenting classes work best for your schedule so I can sign us up. We cannot move foreard with the divorce without them and we both have to be present. Although im not sure if we have to be at the same one or if we can do it seperate.
> 
> I suppose I should just pick some dates and tell her via text.
> 
> Damn it I want to be snarky and vindictive. But I know that doesn't help and doesn't really make me happy.


What you need to do is get to a lawyer and find out what you need to/not do before you agree to anything right now. In some states classes are required, in others they are not. 

Also don't be shocked if by the end of the day she hasn't filed. Your way behind the 8 ball here and trying to play catch up. When I had the "big talk" with my crazy ex and confronted about her affair it was a Sunday night and by 10 Monday morning she had a lawyer and had filed. 

Avoid her as much as possible tonight. She's gonna push your buttons and she wants you to do something stupid, she's already engulfed in victim hood. You must get your emotions under control. You've wrecked her play date today, you've pushed up her timetable and your the one with the most to lose in this mess.


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## DrDetroit

Wife wants to mediation. Parenting classes are required. I replied to her text letting her know set of dates works for me. She replied thanks.

Spoke to an attorney just now who encouraged me to do the mediation route and given that we're not high earners with lots of assets she even suggested trying the the free mediation services to handle the custody and parenting time.

I don't want to do this, but I have to. This marriage is over.

I will not hold out hope for a possible coming back together in the future, that's a non-starter from her side, but I think her and I being married is what is best for our children and will keep the door open.


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## DrDetroit

Ah, good, came home to an empty house. I can breathe.

I saw a note my wife to herself and left out in the open. In it she wrote, I cannot support myself in OR. I do not make enough money and DrDet is not a person who will help financially.

???


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Wife wants to mediation. Parenting classes are required. I replied to her text letting her know set of dates works for me. She replied thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoke to an attorney just now who encouraged me to do the mediation route and given that we're not high earners with lots of assets she even suggested trying the the free mediation services to handle the custody and parenting time.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to do this, but I have to. This marriage is over.
> 
> 
> 
> I will not hold out hope for a possible coming back together in the future, that's a non-starter from her side, but I think her and I being married is what is best for our children and will keep the door open.


This is a healthy approach.

The only thing I would suggest is that if you insist on leaving that door open, that you also include a ticket check, body scanner, and cavity search.

In other words, she needs to be willing to prove, via action, that she is a safe partner:

Individual counseling.

Full admission of guilt WITHOUT blaming you.

Whatever boundaries will help you feel safe as her partner (within reason).

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Ah, good, came home to an empty house. I can breathe.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a note my wife to herself and left out in the open. In it she wrote, I cannot support myself in OR. I do not make enough money and DrDet is not a person who will help financially.
> 
> 
> 
> ???


Do you fish?

Bait always has a hook.

Don't bite. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Ah, good, came home to an empty house. I can breathe.
> 
> I saw a note my wife to herself and left out in the open. In it she wrote, I cannot support myself in OR. I do not make enough money and DrDet is not a person who will help financially.
> 
> ???


Yep, that was a plant. She wants out of the marriage so let her figure it out.

I'd offer to take full custody and give her liberal visitation rights. >


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## MEM2020

This isn’t about the children. Be honest. 

The children are seeing two people who express contempt for each other. 



DrDetroit said:


> Wife wants to mediation. Parenting classes are required. I replied to her text letting her know set of dates works for me. She replied thanks.
> 
> Spoke to an attorney just now who encouraged me to do the mediation route and given that we're not high earners with lots of assets she even suggested trying the the free mediation services to handle the custody and parenting time.
> 
> I don't want to do this, but I have to. This marriage is over.
> 
> I will not hold out hope for a possible coming back together in the future, that's a non-starter from her side, but I think her and I being married is what is best for our children and will keep the door open.


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## Marc878

You work in HR so you know how people are. 

Apply your knowledge to your situation. Her actions should be pretty easy for you to see.

Pretend she's not your wife (easier said than done) and think before you react to anything.

Get out of the automatic reaction and response. Take a step back and think every time. 

You'll be a lot more in control and better prepared to handle anything coming your way.


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## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> Ah, good, came home to an empty house. I can breathe.
> 
> I saw a note my wife to herself and left out in the open. In it she wrote, I cannot support myself in OR. I do not make enough money and DrDet is not a person who will help financially.
> 
> ???


Interesting. Fishing, guilt trip or she has snooped and found your thread. It's time for you change all passwords and lock down anything you used to share. I mean things like your laptop, phone, email addresses and credit cards.


----------



## Marc878

Might be a good idea to request a mod to move this to private.


----------



## Affaircare

@DrDetroit

When I divorced, my STBXH made $84k per year and I made $24k per year. We had 2 children aged 12 and 9. I had been a stay at home mom who got a little part time job when the kids went to school. He left to live with the mistress, and the bills were months behind and I had to go out and get a job to support myself and the kids.

What we did is that we sold the marital home and split the equity. He got his car, I got mine. We shared custody and decision-making legally, but the kids had "home base" at my house and liberal visitation at his. What that means is that exH and I lived 3 miles apart with the school in the middle...any day the kids wanted to visit, they arranged it with their dad and rode their bikes to his house for the night. I got $800 a month for child support and we split costs which drove exH NUTS...so he bought sports fees and equipment, and I paid for weird incidental $10 things that kids need every day. LOL. 

He didn't want to pay me one dime, and I chose to not to ask for alimony, but I did insist on child support because he made kids and it is reasonable for him to be responsible for them. My point being this: she can support herself. She just doesn't want to have to actually WORK. I have an associate's degree in bookkeeping and I got a job and paid my own bills. I lived within the means I could provide...and we weren't rich but we did okay. And yep, I did ask that he help financially contribute to his children, but other than that, if I couldn't afford it...I didn't buy it! 

She can support herself. She is trying to pull off DARVO again.


----------



## In Absentia

she thinks she did wrong, but you did wrong too and in her eyes she was pushed to do wrong, so it's all your fault. And now you are turning nasty with the cash, the house and the kids... of course she is freaking out. She thinks you are both to blame. 50-50, so you should be nice to her. After all she's suffered with your anger and mood for years. Now she wants a divorce, but she wants to keep her life style... she's entitled to it. Make sense, no?


----------



## alte Dame

In Absentia said:


> she thinks she did wrong, but you did wrong too and in her eyes she was pushed to do wrong, so it's all your fault. And now you are turning nasty with the cash, the house and the kids... of course she is freaking out. *She thinks you are both to blame. 50-50*, so you should be nice to her. After all she's suffered with your anger and mood for years. Now she wants a divorce, but she wants to keep her life style... she's entitled to it. Make sense, no?


I get the feeling that she thinks he's 100% to blame. Anything bad that she's done, in her head he made her do it. He should try his hardest to go grey rock and let her find her own independence. After all these years it will be hard for her to support herself, but needs must. In the end it won't matter that she feels entitled because entitlement won't pay the bills. Either she gets a job with serious money or she finds another man to support her.


----------



## MEM2020

Her ONLY complaint about a divorce is financial. She repeats it over and over. In between her communication with, visits to the other man. 

That is a message of contempt. 




farsidejunky said:


> Do you fish?
> 
> Bait always has a hook.
> 
> Don't bite.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## In Absentia

alte Dame said:


> I get the feeling that she thinks he's 100% to blame. Anything bad that she's done, in her head he made her do it. He should try his hardest to go grey rock and let her find her own independence. After all these years it will be hard for her to support herself, but needs must. In the end it won't matter that she feels entitled because entitlement won't pay the bills. Either she gets a job with serious money or she finds another man to support her.


I'm not trying to justify her for her affair, but even if she didn't have one and she wanted to divorce him for his appalling behaviour in the marriage, she would have ended up heavily disadvantaged, regardless. So, affair or not affair, she would have been penalised. I get it when people say she knew what she was doing by staying at home, but I don't really believe she was really aware of what she was doing by being a SAHM...


----------



## DrDetroit

I need to get my act together.

I saw that she already paid for her side of the parenting classes from our joint account. I intended her to pay for herself with her own money. I'm don't want to finance this divorce. I'll pay for my side but not hers.

Tonight, I sit down with the bank statements, monthly bills, and start identifying what is a household bill and what is not, eg, utilities vs cell phone (that she uses to conduct her affair). Unfortunately, I just don't think there's much there. I'm going to insist that she pays for her household stuff like hair and beauty products, half the cell phone, half the internet, stiff like that. 

Figure out exactly how much those household bills are, plus my car payment, plus half of non-household.

Open a new bank account this weekend, change direct deposit on Monday, and make clear that I'll find the joint account with only as much as I owe. I'll do that to put off switching all of the auto pays.

I'd appreciate any advice here or tips on how to approach this. Am I thinking reasonably about this?


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> @DrDetroit
> 
> When I divorced, my STBXH made $84k per year and I made $24k per year. We had 2 children aged 12 and 9. I had been a stay at home mom who got a little part time job when the kids went to school. He left to live with the mistress, and the bills were months behind and I had to go out and get a job to support myself and the kids.
> 
> What we did is that we sold the marital home and split the equity. He got his car, I got mine. We shared custody and decision-making legally, but the kids had "home base" at my house and liberal visitation at his. What that means is that exH and I lived 3 miles apart with the school in the middle...any day the kids wanted to visit, they arranged it with their dad and rode their bikes to his house for the night. I got $800 a month for child support and we split costs which drove exH NUTS...so he bought sports fees and equipment, and I paid for weird incidental $10 things that kids need every day. LOL.
> 
> He didn't want to pay me one dime, and I chose to not to ask for alimony, but I did insist on child support because he made kids and it is reasonable for him to be responsible for them. My point being this: she can support herself. She just doesn't want to have to actually WORK. I have an associate's degree in bookkeeping and I got a job and paid my own bills. I lived within the means I could provide...and we weren't rich but we did okay. And yep, I did ask that he help financially contribute to his children, but other than that, if I couldn't afford it...I didn't buy it!
> 
> She can support herself. She is trying to pull off DARVO again.


Thank you. You referred to darvo before and I'm going to go look that up now.


----------



## MEM2020

This type stuff is what you need a lawyer for. 

You two will share the cost of divorce. That’s why you want to avoid making it contentious. 

Also - each state usually has some public information related to child support, which you likely won’t have with a fifty fifty split.

As well as alimony. In a long term marriage with a big salary difference, alimony is the norm. 

Affair care chose not to fight for money. I doubt your wife will make that choice. 

The amount and duration is state and marriage specific. Lawyer. Lawyer. 




DrDetroit said:


> I need to get my act together.
> 
> I saw that she already paid for her side of the parenting classes from our joint account. I intended her to pay for herself with her own money. I'm don't want to finance this divorce. I'll pay for my side but not hers.
> 
> Tonight, I sit down with the bank statements, monthly bills, and start identifying what is a household bill and what is not, eg, utilities vs cell phone (that she uses to conduct her affair). Unfortunately, I just don't think there's much there. I'm going to insist that she pays for her household stuff like hair and beauty products, half the cell phone, half the internet, stiff like that.
> 
> Figure out exactly how much those household bills are, plus my car payment, plus half of non-household.
> 
> Open a new bank account this weekend, change direct deposit on Monday, and make clear that I'll find the joint account with only as much as I owe. I'll do that to put off switching all of the auto pays.
> 
> I'd appreciate any advice here or tips on how to approach this. Am I thinking reasonably about this?


----------



## oldtruck

honcho said:


> The om wife knows what's going on, she needs to do what she feels is best for her, not you. * Trying to get to to police her husband to stop talking to your wife* won't much good. If they stopped communication tomorrow it's not going to change the dynamic in your marriage right now. Your hoping it pops out of "the fog" and it won't in many cases. It will just make her pine for him that much harder and they will find ways to communicate.


This is the purpose to expose the affair to the OMW.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> , *but I think her and I being married is what is best for our children* and will keep the door open.


No...its not. Children who grow up under a dysfunctional marriage are damaged by the time they hit adulthood. 

It is far better to act like adults and do the adult thing by creating separate healthy and safe households.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> I need to get my act together.
> 
> I saw that she already paid for her side of the parenting classes from our joint account. I intended her to pay for herself with her own money. I'm don't want to finance this divorce. I'll pay for my side but not hers.
> 
> Tonight, I sit down with the bank statements, monthly bills, and start identifying what is a household bill and what is not, eg, utilities vs cell phone (that she uses to conduct her affair). Unfortunately, I just don't think there's much there. I'm going to insist that she pays for her household stuff like hair and beauty products, half the cell phone, half the internet, stiff like that.
> 
> Figure out exactly how much those household bills are, plus my car payment, plus half of non-household.
> 
> Open a new bank account this weekend, change direct deposit on Monday, and make clear that I'll find the joint account with only as much as I owe. I'll do that to put off switching all of the auto pays.
> 
> I'd appreciate any advice here or tips on how to approach this. Am I thinking reasonably about this?


Just my opinion, but since you're planning on staying in the house after the divorce, I would start taking on all of the household bills now and not request her to pay half (mortgage, electric, water, etc). It will give you a good picture of what your finances will look like after divorce, it will allow her to get some savings built up, and it's one less thing that you'll be fighting over. It will also be a cleaner break when she does move out. By moving your direct deposit into your own account, you are effectively stopping a lot of the financial bleeding. That's a good move. Make sure you also get any joint credit cards cancelled. Separate as many bills as you can into your own accounts. Car insurance, cell phone, etc.

Bottom line - the quicker you get the D filed, the quicker you have a 'legal' separation date. I don't know about your state, but in TX that carries a lot of weight especially related to finances and the final decree (ie - it has to be spelled out in your decree, but after the separation date make sure all debts are owned by the individual and not the couple). That's a very important piece.


----------



## ABHale

In Absentia said:


> she thinks she did wrong, but you did wrong too and in her eyes she was pushed to do wrong, so it's all your fault. And now you are turning nasty with the cash, the house and the kids... of course she is freaking out. She thinks you are both to blame. 50-50, so you should be nice to her. After all she's suffered with your anger and mood for years. Now she wants a divorce, but she wants to keep her life style... she's entitled to it. Make sense, no?


No it doesn’t. She is having an affair. If she just wanted a divorce before the affair then she would be entitled to some niceness. He has told her he will no longer fund her affair. He is still taking care of all the household bills. He wants 50-50 custody of the boys which every parent is entitled to unless they abuse the kids.


----------



## Tex X

MEM2020 said:


> This type stuff is what you need a lawyer for.


And this 1000 times over. Some of this have been through this, but we're offering advice based on our own experiences, and the experiences of others. You really do need to get guidance from your attorney. But filing for D is critical - the sooner the better. That much I can tell you.


----------



## ABHale

In Absentia said:


> I'm not trying to justify her for her affair, but even if she didn't have one and she wanted to divorce him for his appalling behaviour in the marriage, she would have ended up heavily disadvantaged, regardless. So, affair or not affair, she would have been penalised. I get it when people say she knew what she was doing by staying at home, but I don't really believe she was really aware of what she was doing by being a SAHM...


Depression is really hard to overcome especially if you’re doing it on your own. Too bad his wife wasn’t there to help him get through it. Half the time when you’re angry and showing it you have no clue why you are or that you’re even doing it. Depression is nasty as it can be. So did DD battle with depression and anger issues yes. Did his wife argue with him and push him until he got help for it, no. She is as much at fault for the state of the marriage for not standing up to him years ago in forcing him to get help. She could’ve easily said early on in the depression that she’s going home with the kids until he gets help.


----------



## DrDetroit

ABHale said:


> Depression is really hard to overcome especially if you’re doing it on your own. Too bad his wife wasn’t there to help him get through it. Half the time when you’re angry and showing it you have no clue why you are or that you’re even doing it. Depression is nasty as it can be. So did DD battle with depression and anger issues yes. Did his wife argue with him and push him until he got help for it, no. She is as much at fault for the state of the marriage for not standing up to him years ago in forcing him to get help. She could’ve easily said early on in the depression that she’s going home with the kids until he gets help.


Two nights ago she reminded that she did push for me to get help with the anger and depression. In fact, she reminded me that I told her she was a nag. I don't remember that, but memories are fallible.

And I would seek help. I was seeing a counselor and things were turn around, I'd be in a better space and I'd stop going thinking that this was it, I'm over the hump. But then over time I'd start reverting to past behaviors. And the cycle would start anew and she would start telling me that I should start going to counseling again. If delay and delay then, when she was fed up, I would go back.

That cycling has led her believing that I'm only interested in working on myself when she's on her way out, hence, cannot trust that whatever changes I am making can be lasting and permanent.

This came up two nights ago because , as we were discussing choices in the marriage, I noted that I, she, and we could have different choices and, specifically, that there was something more or different that she could have pursued with me.

But, that's in the past and we are who are and I am changing.


----------



## Tasorundo

DrDetroit,

I am glad you are moving forward with divorce. Now, just treat her as a person you wont be married to anymore. Don't go out of your way to help her, and don't go out of your way to hurt her. Don't be petty and don't be vindictive.

Her paying for the class out of joint money is totally acceptable, there is no separate money yet, how was she supposed to pay for it?


----------



## DrDetroit

Tasorundo said:


> DrDetroit,
> 
> I am glad you are moving forward with divorce. Now, just treat her as a person you wont be married to anymore. Don't go out of your way to help her, and don't go out of your way to hurt her. Don't be petty and don't be vindictive.
> 
> Her paying for the class out of joint money is totally acceptable, there is no separate money yet, how was she supposed to pay for it?


Yes, yes, and you're right.

I haven't separated anything, yet, therefore how would she pay for it with her own money. I should have said to hold off on paying for it, but I didn't.

Need to have that conversation this weekend and get the splitting up done. We're going to split the mediator cost if she doesn't agree to go the free route through the county.


----------



## TXTraveller

DrDetroit said:


> Two nights ago she reminded that she did push for me to get help with the anger and depression. In fact, she reminded me that I told her she was a nag. I don't remember that, but memories are fallible.
> 
> And I would seek help. I was seeing a counselor and things were turn around, I'd be in a better space and I'd stop going thinking that this was it, I'm over the hump. But then over time I'd start reverting to past behaviors. And the cycle would start anew and she would start telling me that I should start going to counseling again. If delay and delay then, when she was fed up, I would go back.
> 
> That cycling has led her believing that I'm only interested in working on myself when she's on her way out, hence, cannot trust that whatever changes I am making can be lasting and permanent.
> 
> This came up two nights ago because , as we were discussing choices in the marriage, I noted that I, she, and we could have different choices and, specifically, that there was something more or different that she could have pursued with me.
> 
> But, that's in the past and we are who are and I am changing.


Just wanted to say that this is exactly the position i’m In right now with my H. I feel for your wife’s position of in this cycle and this is exactly why I want a D as well. I’ve seen sooooo may false starts. While she is probably always going to be glad to see that you’re trying to change your behavior, she just cant be there for the risk of another set back. I’m glad you’re doing the right thing by her and the kids by focusing on yourself and being the best father you can be.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> Yes, yes, and you're right.
> 
> I haven't separated anything, yet, therefore how would she pay for it with her own money. I should have said to hold off on paying for it, but I didn't.
> 
> Need to have that conversation this weekend and get the splitting up done. We're going to split the mediator cost if she doesn't agree to go the free route through the county.


Not sure you're aware of this, but any divorce costs (parenting classes, lawyers, mediation) can legally come from marital assets. So if she can't afford to pay it she can liquidate marital assets to pay for it. That comes out of the add up your assets, subtract your debts, and divide by two equation. So you're not really gaining anything by playing these games.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Tex X said:


> Not sure you're aware of this, but any divorce costs (parenting classes, lawyers, mediation) can legally come from marital assets. So if she can't afford to pay it she can liquidate marital assets to pay for it. That comes out of the add up your assets, subtract your debts, and divide by two equation. So you're not really gaining anything by playing these games.


He’s not playing a game, he is learning. This is why he needs a lawyer. DrD. If you like the lawyer ask her if you can use a paralegal or hire her for advice like division of bills before divorce.


----------



## alte Dame

In Absentia said:


> I'm not trying to justify her for her affair, but even if she didn't have one and she wanted to divorce him for his appalling behaviour in the marriage, she would have ended up heavily disadvantaged, regardless. So, affair or not affair, she would have been penalised. I get it when people say she knew what she was doing by staying at home, but I don't really believe she was really aware of what she was doing by being a SAHM...


I didn't think you were trying to justify her A. As a woman in today's modern Western world, I think we know what we are doing when we make decisions like whether or not to be a SAHM. What we don't really understand until it happens is what it will take to be a parent, either staying at home or going out to work (that is a shock).

I think time passes much more quickly than we imagine and before we know it, the kids are out of the nest and we are facing choices like this - how do we get into the workforce, can we be competitive, etc. We always knew that we would come to this crossroad, but it seemed so far in the future that we told ourselves we would cross that bridge when we came to it.

I think she is no different from the rest of us in that she knew but didn't want to worry about it and/or thought her BH would take care of her financially (and he will in some wise no matter what, just not to the degree that she likes/needs).


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> Two nights ago she reminded that she did push for me to get help with the anger and depression. In fact, she reminded me that I told her she was a nag. I don't remember that, but memories are fallible.
> 
> And I would seek help. I was seeing a counselor and things were turn around, I'd be in a better space and I'd stop going thinking that this was it, I'm over the hump. But then over time I'd start reverting to past behaviors. And the cycle would start anew and she would start telling me that I should start going to counseling again. If delay and delay then, when she was fed up, I would go back.
> 
> That cycling has led her believing that I'm only interested in working on myself when she's on her way out, hence, cannot trust that whatever changes I am making can be lasting and permanent.
> 
> This came up two nights ago because , as we were discussing choices in the marriage, I noted that I, she, and we could have different choices and, specifically, that there was something more or different that she could have pursued with me.
> 
> But, that's in the past and we are who are and I am changing.


Do you have clinical recurring depression or are you bi-polar?


----------



## DrDetroit

bandit.45 said:


> Do you have clinical recurring depression or are you bi-polar?


Neither has been diagnosed


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> Neither has been diagnosed


Remember, counselors are like anything, you need to find one you like and at the same time holds you accountable for your actions. Yes, it’ll be costly, but try a few and look for recommendations. If you like the one you have sit down and really talk about you, your depression, your marriage and the looming divorce. Tell the truth about your actions, listen and learn.


----------



## DrDetroit

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Remember, counselors are like anything, you need to find one you like and at the same time holds you accountable for your actions. Yes, it’ll be costly, but try a few and look for recommendations. If you like the one you have sit down and really talk about you, your depression, your marriage and the looming divorce. Tell the truth about your actions, listen and learn.


I've been doing IC since January. I have one I like and he does hold me accountable, ie., at least I think he does. He challenges me to describe my feelings, we've done some emdr and somatic work.


----------



## DrDetroit

bandit.45 said:


> No...its not. Children who grow up under a dysfunctional marriage are damaged by the time they hit adulthood.
> 
> It is far better to act like adults and do the adult thing by creating separate healthy and safe households.


Or being adults and not running away from our problems via divorce to reconcile and commit to a loving, healthy, and safe marriage.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> Just my opinion, but since you're planning on staying in the house after the divorce, I would start taking on all of the household bills now and not request her to pay half (mortgage, electric, water, etc). It will give you a good picture of what your finances will look like after divorce, it will allow her to get some savings built up, and it's one less thing that you'll be fighting over. It will also be a cleaner break when she does move out. By moving your direct deposit into your own account, you are effectively stopping a lot of the financial bleeding. That's a good move. Make sure you also get any joint credit cards cancelled. Separate as many bills as you can into your own accounts. Car insurance, cell phone, etc.
> 
> Bottom line - the quicker you get the D filed, the quicker you have a 'legal' separation date. I don't know about your state, but in TX that carries a lot of weight especially related to finances and the final decree (ie - it has to be spelled out in your decree, but after the separation date make sure all debts are owned by the individual and not the couple). That's a very important piece.


Thanks. Looking at and organizing all household bills tonight, ensuring I have pay info for her, etc.

Gonna get that sole checking account opened this weekend.

Gonna complete my attorney's paperwork this weekend as well.

We have a joint Costco Citi card. I guess I have to figure out how to get off of that and get one of my own.


----------



## DrDetroit

TXTraveller said:


> Just wanted to say that this is exactly the position i’m In right now with my H. I feel for your wife’s position of in this cycle and this is exactly why I want a D as well. I’ve seen sooooo may false starts. While she is probably always going to be glad to see that you’re trying to change your behavior, she just cant be there for the risk of another set back. I’m glad you’re doing the right thing by her and the kids by focusing on yourself and being the best father you can be.


I do wish that I hadn't let her down. My wife keeps characterizing my cycles as intentional choices, ie., that I cared more about my behavior than I did her, the marriage, and the family. And that's completely untrue. I've learned that my anger is borne of depression. I've learned that once I started working on the anger, the underlying depression wasn't being addressed and continued to manifest as a need to protect myself and to do so I would basically freeze, turn inward (isolate and withdraw), and get really small so that I wouldn't make things worse.

And, you're right, as she has said, she just muster the will to put herself at risk of being hurt, again.

It's all a frigging shame really.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tonight sucks.

She and I are not even talking to one another. This hurts. As much as I want to be angry, want to detach, and want to let go, this is my wife, man. 

She's still emailing the OM and therein tells him she wishes I was going out or would be out of the house tonight and/or tomorrow. He suggested to her that he's confident I have her phone bugged, lol.

Wish I could just ask her to move out.


----------



## Tilted 1

Bold and ulgy, Doc bold and ulgy...best to you. But this is why you now have resolve.


----------



## DrDetroit

I'm still weighing whether to contact my wife's immediate family and closest friends to expose. This is the waffling side of me that still believes that she's in the fog and if jolted out of it, might just take a clearer look at whether we could reconcile.

I wonder if I should spend some money on talking to the Harley's.


----------



## Casual Observer

DrDetroit said:


> I'm still weighing whether to contact my wife's immediate family and closest friends to expose. This is the waffling side of me that still believes that she's in the fog and if jolted out of it, might just take a clearer look at whether we could reconcile.
> 
> I wonder if I should spend some money on talking to the Harley's.


You need to expose. It won’t bring her back to you, but you’ll feel better about what you’ve been putting up with and how that will appear down the road if you don’t expose. Not exposing makes it appear you’re a part of this. That what she’s doing now is ok with you. Which makes you look weak. 

Expose. Now.


----------



## Marc878

Do you really want someone back that clearly doesn't want you? Stop projecting "I love her so she's gotta really love me too". 

You're still reacting versus taking action.


----------



## Tilted 1

Sorry doc, l don't think jolting is in her, at this phase.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> Do you really want someone back that clearly doesn't want you? Stop projecting "I love her so she's gotta really love me too".
> 
> You're still reacting versus taking action.


Nah, I am taking action, but I am also thinking, pondering to slow myself down.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tilted 1 said:


> Sorry doc, l don't think jolting is in her, at this phase.


Yep, I'm thinking that way, too.


----------



## DrDetroit

I want to talk to my wife about pursuing the free or reduced cost mediation service through the county (versus $300/hr for the attorney she's selected), but am finding that I am either afraid to or just don't want to deal with her, possibly both.


----------



## Marc878

Normal, you don't want to deal with the reality of ending your marriage even though it's dead anyway.

It will progress over time anyway. I do get where you're at.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Affaircare said:


> @DrDetroit,
> 
> My heart aches for you because even though you may not have been perfect, you didn't want this. There is no thing under the sun that you did that warrants adultery--there just isn't.
> 
> Sadly, from all that you post, it does sound to me as if your wife is done. I know you wish she still loved you and cared about your marriage, but none of her actions indicate that she is even aware of you or your relationship, much less cares about it. Don't listen to her words AT ALL...watch her actions. Does she act like she is concerned, interested in, or looking after anyone other than herself? If her actions don't demonstrate love, then she doesn't feel love...and I know it hurts you to hear that, but it's the truth.
> 
> So my thoughts to you are two-fold: 1) learn to accept what is true, and 2) allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices.
> 
> 1) Learn to accept what is true. Hopium leads to denial, in the poor mental health sense. You are denying what is real. Reality is that your wife loves another, wants to be with another, does not want to continue the relationship with you, and is not concerned about the damage she's doing. She does not respect you, and she does not value what you have to offer (to a degree...see below).
> 
> Now I know this is a very bitter pill to swallow, but it is where you find yourself--in her eyes you are disposable. Now, in YOUR eyes, you value her and maybe even still respect her somewhat, so to you, it's BITTER to be cast aside by someone whom you still value. But just because SHE doesn't value you doesn't mean you aren't valuable!! It just means that in HER eyes you aren't appreciated and worthy. Maybe her value system is so messed up she doesn't know a good thing when she has it in her hand!
> 
> As sad as it is, I invite you to embrace the truth--you are not wanted BY HER--and let yourself feel the sorrow. Stop trying to avoid it and deny--just admit that it's there, it's true, and you are deeply grieving over this. It's okay. This is worthy of sorrowing. Set aside some time to actually sit and fully ponder and cry over this truth, and accept it. It just IS the way it is. Be sad. And after a certain time, let it go, and by that I just mean don't sit and wallow, but rather feel what you feel, really feel it, and then be done for the time being.
> 
> 2) Allow her to experience the natural consequences of her choices. Here's the thing: you aren't her daddy and you aren't her morality police. You can no more stop her from committing adultery than you can turn a mountain into a molehill. It's not your job to "punish" her or "teach her a lesson." However, right now she thinks if she divorces, she gets to keep her kids and her current lifestyle and something as nice as or better than your house and her current car and her current bills paid--only difference is that she swaps you OUT and swaps loverboy IN. That's her unrealistic, affair-fogged, romanticized fantasy in her head right now: she loses ALL the bad, but gets to keep ALL the good.
> 
> In real life, every single choice has a cost and a benefit. Marrying you, the benefit was that she got to be a SAHM and work part-time and be with the kids--the cost was fidelity. Cheating on you, the benefit is that she gets the thrill of feeling interesting and desirable, but the cost is no more being a SAHM or working part-time or being with the kids like she likes. As adults, we are personally resposible for our choices. By NOT allowing her to experience the natural consequences of her own choices, what you are essentially saying is "You can't handle it." By allowing her to experience the natural consequences, your actions say that you believe she is able to handle the cost and benefits of what she chooses.
> 
> In this case, it's super easy. You have both costs and benefits. Having access to you for any kind of funds, is a benefit of you. Having you to complain to about a hard day, is a benefit of you. Having you provide a nice home and nice things at the level a $100k+ salary can, is a benefit of you. Etc. Etc. You have many benefits. The cost to receive those benefits was fidelity. She doesn't want to pay that cost, so when she chose the OM and the affair...well that is her choice to make! We may think it's unwise and immoral, but people can choose to be stupid and wicked if they want! But if she chooses OM--she has FIRED YOU from the job. That means she loses the benefits of you!
> 
> See how this works, @DrDetroit? You aren't being mean or being a jerk or being anything! You are saying, "Wife, you are free to make any decision you want. Make whatever choice you believe is right for you. But every choice has both a cost and a benefit. If you really want to divorce, there is a natural cost in that choice: you no longer get the benefits of me. I won't provide for you...you will have to provide for you. I can provide for the kids at my own place and care for them adequately--you would have to provide for them at your own place. I won't be your frustration dumping ground anymore. If you have a bad day at work, you fired me so you'll need to find someone else to vent at. I won't 'help' or 'support you' or 'encourage you' or do anything with you because you will be like the bank teller or grocery store cashier to me--just another person living in my town."


Well said @Affaircare:wink2:


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

DrDetroit said:


> I'm still weighing whether to contact my wife's immediate family and closest friends to expose. This is the waffling side of me that still believes that she's in the fog and if jolted out of it, might just take a clearer look at whether we could reconcile.
> 
> I wonder if I should spend some money on talking to the Harley's.


Harley’s...NO! Dammit you know what needs to be done. If you don’t get it you’re going to wash out of NLLH Bootcamp.
Expose to her parents before she can spin it against you. She is no longer your wife. She fired you. Deal with it, quit being a damn doormat.:surprise:

Please read Larry Winget’s “Grow A Pair”. Great read, and if you take it to heart, you are going to come out stronger.

As I said earlier DETACH! 180! **** her and feed her fish heads. Got it?> The sooner you let her go....the sooner you will heal.


----------



## DrDetroit

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Harley’s...NO! Dammit you know what needs to be done. If you don’t get it you’re going to wash out of NLLH Bootcamp.
> Expose to her parents before she can spin it against you. She is no longer your wife. She fired you. Deal with it, quit being a damn doormat.:surprise:
> 
> Please read Larry Winget’s “Grow A Pair”. Great read, and if you take it to heart, you are going to come out stronger.
> 
> As I said earlier DETACH! 180! **** her and feed her fish heads. Got it?> The sooner you let her go....the sooner you will heal.


NLLH?

I'll take a gander at the book suggestion.

And you think I should expose to her parents?


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> NLLH?
> 
> I'll take a gander at the book suggestion.
> 
> And you think I should expose to her parents?


And your parents.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

DrDetroit said:


> NLLH?
> 
> I'll take a gander at the book suggestion.
> 
> And you think I should expose to her parents?


Hell yes expose. Expose to parents and close friends


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I also went a tad overboard. I emailed people via email, and even outed her on Facebook, changed my status on Facebook from married to single. Took my wedding ring off. I went nuclear. Probably should not have, but damn it, I am a Marine. We know only one way to wage war.....scorched Earth my friend.

Point is my wife started pursuing me shortly thereafter and I blew up her affair on Dday. We are going on four years of R. Had I not taken a solid stance, I would have been divorced. If you want to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it, and from your posts, it appears you are losing the game due to what I see is the “pick me dance” on steroids. You must stop this. You look weak. As I told you in an earlier post, WOMEN RESPECT STRENGTH! Understand? 

Einstein said it best sir, “ Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.” Time to stop the insanity.


----------



## oldtruck

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I also went a tad overboard. I emailed people via email, and even outed her on Facebook, changed my status on Facebook from married to single. Took my wedding ring off. I went nuclear. Probably should not have, but damn it, I am a Marine. We know only one way to wage war.....scorched Earth my friend.
> 
> Point is my wife started pursuing me shortly thereafter and I blew up her affair on Dday. We are going on four years of R. Had I not taken a solid stance, I would have been divorced. If you want to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it, and from your posts, it appears you are losing the game due to what I see is the “pick me dance” on steroids. You must stop this. You look weak. As I told you in an earlier post, WOMEN RESPECT STRENGTH! Understand?
> 
> Einstein said it best sir, “ Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.” Time to stop the insanity.


Your exposure was not overboard. It was a complete and thorough exposure.

This why exposure worked for you. Your WW was left no place that would let escape facing
the consequences of her affair. Your exposure prevented your WW from trying to lie and
blame shift her affair.

Exposure forced her admit that her value on the marriage market was zero. That her affair feelings
were based on false logic. With the false logic removed she was able to see your true worth and
why she married you.

So she was motivated to pursue you hard to recover the marriage.


----------



## DrDetroit

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I also went a tad overboard. I emailed people via email, and even outed her on Facebook, changed my status on Facebook from married to single. Took my wedding ring off. I went nuclear. Probably should not have, but damn it, I am a Marine. We know only one way to wage war.....scorched Earth my friend.
> 
> Point is my wife started pursuing me shortly thereafter and I blew up her affair on Dday. We are going on four years of R. Had I not taken a solid stance, I would have been divorced. If you want to save your marriage you have to be willing to lose it, and from your posts, it appears you are losing the game due to what I see is the “pick me dance” on steroids. You must stop this. You look weak. As I told you in an earlier post, WOMEN RESPECT STRENGTH! Understand?
> 
> Einstein said it best sir, “ Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.” Time to stop the insanity.


So how do I project strength in this situation?

Expose.
Lead the divorce proceeding.
Take the reins in organizing our finances and preparing all of that for the divorce.
Get a life.
Detach.

Stuff like that?

All of these things would also lead me to a better place no matter what happens with my wife and I.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

DrDetroit said:


> Or being adults and not running away from our problems via divorce to reconcile and commit to a loving, healthy, and safe marriage.


No an adult doesn’t stay in an abusive relationship. 

YOU admit she tried. 
YOU admit you Failed.
You admit you understand why it happened.


The affair with a married person is wrong. It changes the dynamics of the divorce, it doesn't change what you say you did. Safety and a happy life are more important than an unsafe marriage changes or not. She doesn’t trust or believe you. Her failure is dragging her feet and playing your for a chump.
She was and is cake eating.

Guess what? You were and are too. Her timetable is not your timetable.

She gave you a choice get fixed or she is done. YOU chose not to listen, something adults do not do in committed relationships.

Honestly, it is ironic and hypocritical, you want her to do what you wouldn’t do. You want her to fix the problems and not runaway from the marriage.

You didn’t until she said and offered proof, the OM, She was done.


----------



## DrDetroit

Is there a good exposure letter template around?

I think I'm going to write a letter to her immediate family letting them know we're headed down the divorce line, acknowledge and take responsibility for my behaviors and their impact on the marriage and then drop the exposure.


----------



## alte Dame

You should only do this in a letter if you are trying to stop the A and get into R, in my opinion.

Otherwise, you can let your family know about the A through personal communication.


----------



## DrDetroit

alte Dame said:


> You should only do this in a letter if you are trying to stop the A and get into R, in my opinion.
> 
> Otherwise, you can let your family know about the A through personal communication.


Why do you recommend that approach?


----------



## MEM2020

DrD,
You seem confused on a key point - so I will address it directly. You only control you, and you will only get to manage your children if you do so in a generally constructive manner. You don't get to decide what is best for D2 - she decides that. 

You mention that you wish you had told her not to spend the money on the parenting class - that is not your choice. Every high earning spouse wants to dictate control of joint accounts when it relates to an unwanted divorce. The courts won't support that. And frankly, they should not. 

Financial terror makes for a poor marital foundation. D2 feels contempt for you. She expresses that contempt thru these little messages she leaves up on her computer or on pieces of paper left for you to find. 

I get that you don't want this divorce - but, after observing your dynamic I will share how this likely looks to your wife. 

She gave you LOTS of chances to address the marriage. The reason you are suddenly so committed and engaged isn't love. It isn't about her. It is instead the fear of divorce. Of starting over. But that is solely about self preservation, not love. Not what is good for her. 






DrDetroit said:


> Or being adults and not running away from our problems via divorce to reconcile and commit to a loving, healthy, and safe marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

Great - that way you both look like crap. 

Irreconcilable differences is the route that classy people take. 




DrDetroit said:


> Is there a good exposure letter template around?
> 
> I think I'm going to write a letter to her immediate family letting them know we're headed down the divorce line, acknowledge and take responsibility for my behaviors and their impact on the marriage and then drop the exposure.


----------



## sokillme

DrDetroit said:


> Why do you recommend that approach?


A Letter seems vindictive. You want to keep yourself above the fray. It's one thing to call and say, "Look this happening and since you have been a part of my family so long I want you to here my side" It's another to send out a letter about infidelity like one of those end of year Christmas letters. Just makes you look like you are really trying to pressure your spouse through passive aggressive ways. 

You have to be careful that you motives look like you are hurt and trying to protect yourself, not destroy and punish her, even if part of you wants to destroy and punish her, and rightfully so. Remember she is their flesh and blood or their good friend and if you are going to destroy her their first instinct is going to be to protect her. But if you say hey I have to protect myself they will understand that and have empathy. Then depending on the type of people they are they may "correct" her in a way they feel comfortable. But I have to be honest, if she can do this I don't suspect her inner circle are going to be the type to hold her accountable. That's not always true but it's rare.

My question is what do you want? Do you want her to come back to you or do you want to move on with your life. If you want to move on with your life, and I think that is probably the best coarse of action, then you should move on with your life. 

If you want her to come back to you then you need to figure out a way to talk about your hurt and pain in a productive way. Eventually you are going to have to forgive her. And then once she is really remorseful then you have to deal with the problems in your marriage. That is hard stuff and I would say most WS are not capable of getting there. But you have to be capable of getting there yourself. 

If it's move on then move on right now, today. She needs to be dead to you. Don't cover for her but don't give her any emotional attention either.


----------



## farsidejunky

This will be the last time I say this as I don not want it to erupt into a thread jack regarding whether or not to expose.

I think exposure at this point is a mistake, maybe with the exception of folks on your side of the family. 

You KNOW finances are going to be at least a small fight. Combine that with the fact that she ALREADY sees herself as a victim...and all it would take would be a touch of gasoline to fuel the existing resentment fire. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> This will be the last time I say this as I don not want it to erupt into a thread jack regarding whether or not to expose.
> 
> I think exposure at this point is a mistake, maybe with the exception of folks on your side of the family.
> 
> You KNOW finances are going to be at least a small fight. Combine that with the fact that she ALREADY sees herself as a victim...and all it would take would be a touch of gasoline to fuel the existing resentment fire.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I'll take this post as a warning to chill. She has decided to divorce. You are understanding it, but starting to delve into vindictive behavior to keep her in the marriage. She is a SAHM who actually wants to mediate. Be very careful in your choices right now. I am not saying bend over backwards, but a SAHM has many remedies in the court system people seem to forget. Also, you are freely admitting your behavior rose to abuse levels. If she has any type of record of this, it will affect everything from custody to division of assets. I'll see if I can find the threads, but reconciling spouses and divorcing spouses react differently to exposure pressure.


----------



## Tilted 1

A lesson learned in your new life. Just call those and move on, you know just say your peace (truthfully no exaggerating) and answer no questions. Inform and then end the call. As hard as it will be not to answer questions don't. Be calm and focus no emotions just direct and to the point. If you go overboard and do differently those you speak to will remember what you said and the way you said it. Possibly brought into court with your wife. Be aware.


----------



## alte Dame

alte Dame said:


> You should only do this in a letter if you are trying to stop the A and get into R, in my opinion.
> 
> Otherwise, you can let your family know about the A through personal communication.





DrDetroit said:


> Why do you recommend that approach?


Your WW is very angry and desperate now. She wants out of the marriage for all the reasons you have reported. She is not a cake-eating cheater who will be ashamed of her infidelity. On the contrary, she can say to people, 'Can you blame me? Look at what I have suffered all these years with this angry, controlling *******.' Whether you agree with her or not, that sounds like what she will say.

I therefore don't think that writing a general email/text/post exposing her will shame her into reversing course or suddenly see your strength. Certainly, in some cases that works. NLLH is a take-charge man whose wife was cake-eating.

Instead, my sense is that you should communicate with your immediate family and close friends. Give them an update on your life, including a heads-up that divorce may be imminent and that your WW is cheating. 

This gets out in front of any narrative she wants to devise after the fact. Cheaters usually try to stay completely mum about the A or try to introduce the AP later as someone new. If I were you, I would get out in front of this with family and close friends so that they know the truth.

So - I agree with exposure, just not a global info mail blast that will have people asking themselves whether you have lost it.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> Neither has been diagnosed


You could be a slow cycling bi-polar and not even know it. It wouldn’t hurt to have a full psych workup done on yourself.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> Or being adults and not running away from our problems via divorce to reconcile and commit to a loving, healthy, and safe marriage.


Problem is it takes two adults who want to do this, and right now there is only one.


----------



## Marc878

Stop grasping at straws. You are trying to patch a hole in a boat that already sunk.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

DrDetroit said:


> So how do I project strength in this situation?
> 
> Expose.
> Lead the divorce proceeding.
> Take the reins in organizing our finances and preparing all of that for the divorce.
> Get a life.
> Detach.
> 
> Stuff like that?
> 
> All of these things would also lead me to a better place no matter what happens with my wife and I.


Dr. Detroit your answer lies in the 12 orders I gave you on a prior post. Follow that and you will be OK whether you reconcile or divorce


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

DrDetroit said:


> Is there a good exposure letter template around?
> 
> I think I'm going to write a letter to her immediate family letting them know we're headed down the divorce line, acknowledge and take responsibility for my behaviors and their impact on the marriage and then drop the exposure.


You simply write this: Dear _________. Sadly I must let you know that my wife ________ has been having an affair with(insert POSOMs name hers). Due to her actions and unwillingness to end the affair and work on our marriage I am filing for divorce.

Sincerely,


It is that simple.


----------



## DrDetroit

Wife had a planned mountain biking class this morning. Last week was my first time back to church in a very long time. This week, I asked my boys to go with me. As she was getting ready to leave, she was telling me about her plan for the day and simply replied ok. She asked about getting shopping done and I told her I'd go after the boys and I got home. She asked from where and I said church.

Wow... Quite an effect on her. We've gone to church before back in MI but would fall out of the habit, restart, off, etc. After moving here to OR we tried a few churches when our kids were young but didn't really go anywhere. She tried going again this past spring and would ask if we were interested in going and didn't go and she'd go by herself.

I couldn't tell if she was angry, frustrated that they chose to go with me, or what, but she was visibly emotionally reacting to me taking the kids to church.

She told the boys that she was happy they were going. But she also told them that it looks like I am making good choices and that it appears I make good choices when we're not married...to the boys. That kinda pissed me off, though I rationally get where she's coming from.

She also told the boys that going to church was something that she'd been trying to do as a family but no one else wanted to participate.

Over the past 2 weeks she hasn't been saying bye to me when she leaves. This morning, though, she did but laced it with a speech about she's excited I'm taking the boys but she's been trying 12 years to get us to go as a family. 

Weird, but I get it, sort of.

The difference between her approach to this kind of stuff is she asks the boys to go and when they say no she gets upset and pretends to brush it off. Otoh, I don't ask so much as tell the boys I am going and explain why I'd like them to come with me. Works like a charm.


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Wife had a planned mountain biking class this morning. Last week was my first time back to church in a very long time. This week, I asked my boys to go with me. As she was getting ready to leave, she was telling me about her plan for the day and simply replied ok. She asked about getting shopping done and I told her I'd go after the boys and I got home. She asked from where and I said church.
> 
> Wow... Quite an effect on her. We've gone to church before back in MI but would fall out of the habit, restart, off, etc. After moving here to OR we tried a few churches when our kids were young but didn't really go anywhere. *She tried going again this past spring and would ask if we were interested in going and didn't go and she'd go by herself.*
> 
> She's probably surmised you're doing this to keep her in the marriage
> 
> I couldn't tell if she was angry, frustrated that they chose to go with me, or what, but she was visibly emotionally reacting to me taking the kids to church.
> 
> She told the boys that she was happy they were going. *But she also told them that it looks like I am making good choices and that it appears I make good choices when we're not married...to the boys.* That kinda pissed me off, though I rationally get where she's coming from.
> 
> Sounds like she figured out it's just a ploy on your part.
> 
> She also told the boys that going to church was something that she'd been trying to do as a family but no one else wanted to participate.
> 
> She's correct. Why now? She knows the answer
> 
> Over the past 2 weeks she hasn't been saying bye to me when she leaves. This morning, though, she did but laced it with a speech about she's excited I'm taking the boys but she's been trying 12 years to get us to go as a family.
> 
> Weird, but I get it, sort of.
> 
> Do you? She's correct in her assumption.
> 
> The difference between her approach to this kind of stuff is she asks the boys to go and when they say no she gets upset and pretends to brush it off. Otoh, I don't ask so much as tell the boys I am going and explain why I'd like them to come with me. Works like a charm.


I've seen this behavior before. Trouble and all of a sudden going to church, maybe start quoting scripture, etc. is going to fix everything. Nope. Usually it's a short term ploy that doesn't last.

You're analyzing all her reactions which in reality is you trying to affect the outcome. Doesn't smell authentic to me and I doubt she'll buy it either.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Otoh, I don't ask so much as tell the boys I am going and explain why I'd like them to come with me. Works like a charm.


This is the strength in action, as this advice is given to most but cannot make heads or tails out of it. This is the example to be followed. And practiced.


----------



## farsidejunky

She's being passive-aggressive. 

Bait. Hook. Etc.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DrDetroit

Marc878 said:


> I've seen this behavior before. Trouble and all of a sudden going to church, maybe start quoting scripture, etc. is going to fix everything. Nope. Usually it's a short term ploy that doesn't last.
> 
> You're analyzing all her reactions which in reality is you trying to affect the outcome. Doesn't smell authentic to me and I doubt she'll buy it either.


I appreciate the cynicism, but no ploy on my part. I have accepted that she does not trust me and does not trust that anything I do or change about myself can be lasting.

I just know that I don't have a social network where I live and the church I am going to is in our neighborhood and filled with people I have seen but not interacted with. Plus, I need something different right now to focus my mind and energy other than simply going to work, coming home, and the normal routine.


----------



## Marc878

Go your own way. She'll follow or she won't.

Expect nothing but a better you and life for your kids.


----------



## DrDetroit

Wish I could get a plan together rather than being reactive.

I'm getting all kinds of advice but it's conflicting. Expose, don't expose. Be engaging, considerate, and emotionally available or 180, detach, etc.

And the rationale all sounds reasonable.

Yet, here I am, one moment telling myself that it's over, acknowledging that she is done, but then the next my mind is wandering to the what ifs.

Some of that is based on her words and actions, too. Like this morning, when she was whining about me taking the kids to church and how she had tried to do that for so long and then saying how I'm making these good choices when we're not married. Or her continuing this contact with the OM.


----------



## Marc878

Her actions say it all.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

Look,your wife wants a divorce,she says that she doesnt love you and she even found another man to be her lover. It doesnt get simlier than that. Your marriage is over. Now,all you have to do is find a good lauyer,make a living arangments and get the best deal for your kids custody. Everything elce is just wasting of your time and unnessesary pain shopping.


----------



## DrDetroit

I'm going the full exposure route. I'm not going to tolerate this continuing affair, even if it is only via email (though they were making plans to be together). I'm not doing this to punish, but to get some support from her family and friends. I've talked to one of her former friends who now says that knowing the whole story that she would have stepped up sooner.

Even if we don't end up reconciled, I will know that I took steps to save the marriage.

Also, I'm no longer doing the 180 part of ignoring her and not starting conversations. I will not emotionally invest myself or be her crying shoulder, but I'm going to interact with her. Not doing so is making me feel worse. I will continue to get a life, be the best dad I can, and continue working on myself as an individual.

Lastly, I will talk to my sons and theirs to explain that my sons are not allowed to be over at the OMs house and their children are not allowed at my house. They may still play together, but outside, at the park, at another friends house, etc. I will explain that this is because their mother and their father will not stop their affair and that when the kids are together in each other's homes their mother and father don't only have an excuse to communicate, but it maintains their relationship.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> She's being passive-aggressive.
> 
> Bait. Hook. Etc.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Like in WarGames, the only way to win is to not play the game. 

Smile, nod, walk away. Don’t engage or defend yourself. Treat her tantrums like you’d treat the latest news from the Kardashians - like you’re somewhat aware that somethings going on, but you really can’t be bothered to give a **** because it’s beneath you.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> I'm going the full exposure route. I'm not going to tolerate this continuing affair, even if it is only via email (though they were making plans to be together). I'm not doing this to punish, but to get some support from her family and friends. I've talked to one of her former friends who now says that knowing the whole story that she would have stepped up sooner.
> 
> Even if we don't end up reconciled, I will know that I took steps to save the marriage.
> 
> Also, I'm no longer doing the 180 part of ignoring her and not starting conversations. I will not emotionally invest myself or be her crying shoulder, but I'm going to interact with her. Not doing so is making me feel worse. I will continue to get a life, be the best dad I can, and continue working on myself as an individual.
> 
> Lastly, I will talk to my sons and theirs to explain that my sons are not allowed to be over at the OMs house and their children are not allowed at my house. They may still play together, but outside, at the park, at another friends house, etc. I will explain that this is because their mother and their father will not stop their affair and that when the kids are together in each other's homes their mother and father don't only have an excuse to communicate, but it maintains their relationship.


All you’re going to get is a headache from smashing your head into a brick wall, expecting the wall to break before your head does.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> I'm going the full exposure route. I'm not going to tolerate this continuing affair, even if it is only via email (though they were making plans to be together). I'm not doing this to punish, but to get some support from her family and friends. I've talked to one of her former friends who now says that knowing the whole story that she would have stepped up sooner.
> 
> Even if we don't end up reconciled, I will know that I took steps to save the marriage.
> 
> Also, I'm no longer doing the 180 part of ignoring her and not starting conversations. I will not emotionally invest myself or be her crying shoulder, but I'm going to interact with her. Not doing so is making me feel worse. I will continue to get a life, be the best dad I can, and continue working on myself as an individual.
> 
> Lastly, I will talk to my sons and theirs to explain that my sons are not allowed to be over at the OMs house and their children are not allowed at my house. They may still play together, but outside, at the park, at another friends house, etc. I will explain that this is because their mother and their father will not stop their affair and that when the kids are together in each other's homes their mother and father don't only have an excuse to communicate, but it maintains their relationship.


Just be direct and businesslike about it. Keep it short and sweet. 

"My wife has been carrying on an online affair since _ _ _ _ _ _ _ and we are divorcing for that reason." 

That is it. Don't say anymore. Don't trash her or use foul language. If they want specifics they can contact you directly.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marduk said:


> Like in WarGames, the only way to win is to not play the game.
> 
> Smile, nod, walk away. Don’t engage or defend yourself. Treat her tantrums like you’d treat the latest news from the Kardashians - like you’re somewhat aware that somethings going on, but you really can’t be bothered to give a **** because it’s beneath you.


Right, I won't play her games. I'll engage but only on formalities and certainly will not be defending myself or engaging in convos about divorce until this affair stops.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Right, I won't play her games. I'll engage but only on formalities and certainly will not be defending myself or engaging in convos about divorce until this affair stops.


You have that backwards. 

Your marriage is over, my friend. A long time ago. The only one that hasn’t got the message is you. 

The only conversations you should be having are logistics about your upcoming and inevitable divorce.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> Right, I won't play her games. I'll engage but only on formalities and certainly will not be defending myself or engaging in convos about divorce until this affair stops.


Do what the 180 tells ya. Don't initiate, don't instigate, don't exacerbate, don't elevate. When she gets whiny or snotty just turn around and walk away. Seriously, just get up and leave the room, even if she shouts nasty things to your back. When you don't reply or engage with her, she will eventually learn that those tactics won't work anymore and she'll stop doing them. Same with nasty or stupid texts. 

Kinda like training a dog. Repetition.


----------



## DrDetroit

Look, guys, I know what my wife has told...while she continues her contact with the OM. In other words, while she maintains hope for something greener on the other side.

But I have heard her say lots of things. Her reaction last week when I blew up the attempted meeting with the OM was revealing. She didn't have to not go see him, but she chose not to. She didn't have to get all upset about me blowing it up, but she did.

Or maybe I am reading it all wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't want to divorce her and trash my family. It also doesn't mean marriage at all costs. It does mean that I will do things that are healthy for me, gal, best dad, good person, and take actions that might improve the chances to reconcile rather than definitely blow up any chance.

I sorta feel like there are agendas here or at least comments reflecting strong personal biases and I'm trying to wade through that. It doesn't mean that advice isn't good or appreciated. It means that I have a goal. I am taking action toward that goal. That goal may or may not be realized, but in the end, I'll be better off either way.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Not understanding why you want to cling to someone who doesnt want you. This all sounds like wasted effort for no reason. Just let her go, for crying out loud.


----------



## Marduk

Magical thinking.


----------



## DrDetroit

3Xnocharm said:


> Not understanding why you want to cling to someone who doesnt want you. This all sounds like wasted effort for no reason. Just let her go, for crying out loud.


Cling? No. Reconcile, yes. Im not here to help you understand why I want to reconcile. I am here to get practical advice to help me consider and pursue a goal. I appreciate your dose of reality, but it doesn't really help. I don't want anyone to blow smoke up my ass, in other words.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Cling? No. Reconcile, yes. Im not here to help you understand why I want to reconcile. I am here to get practical advice to help me consider and pursue a goal. I appreciate your dose of reality, but it doesn't really help. I don't want anyone to blow smoke up my ass, in other words.


Yes you do. That’s all you want - a recipe to get her to pick you. 

She won’t and she hasn’t. She’s out. And you need to accept that. 

At any rate, your infinitesimally small shot at reconciliation is only if you walk away and she changes her mind. But you won’t do that. 

Either way, you need to walk away. It’s your only play. 

It’s just not what you want to hear.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bandit.45 said:


> Just be direct and businesslike about it. Keep it short and sweet.
> 
> "My wife has been carrying on an online affair since _ _ _ _ _ _ _ and we are divorcing for that reason."
> 
> That is it. Don't say anymore. Don't trash her or use foul language. If they want specifics they can contact you directly.


Slight modification: "My wife has been carrying on an online affair with __________since _ _ _ _ _ _ _ and we are divorcing for that reason." If you're going to expose make sure you expose who it's cheating with.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marduk said:


> Yes you do. That’s all you want - a recipe to get her to pick you.
> 
> She won’t and she hasn’t. She’s out. And you need to accept that.
> 
> At any rate, your infinitesimally small shot at reconciliation is only if you walk away and she changes her mind. But you won’t do that.
> 
> Either way, you need to walk away. It’s your only play.
> 
> It’s just not what you want to hear.


I am walking away. I will be cancelling the mediation for 10/14. I will move on to retaining an attorney and filing. At the same time, I'll also be exposing and maybe timing filing and exposure at same time.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> Cling? No. Reconcile, yes. Im not here to help you understand why I want to reconcile. I am here to get practical advice to help me consider and pursue a goal. I appreciate your dose of reality, but it doesn't really help. I don't want anyone to blow smoke up my ass, in other words.


Sorry bud, but you're playing the pick me dance. She is still in contact with the OM, and she has clearly told you she doesn't want you anymore. There can be no reconciliation when there is an active affair taking place. I respect your desire to save your marriage, but at this point you're the only one interested in saving it. I am a huge advocate for saving a marriage if there is something to be saved, but both people need to be "ALL IN" or it just will not work. Either way make sure you proceed with eyes wide open.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> Sorry bud, but you're playing the pick me dance. She is still in contact with the OM, and she has clearly told you she doesn't want you anymore. There can be no reconciliation when there is an active affair taking place. I respect your desire to save your marriage, but at this point you're the only one interested in saving it. I am a huge advocate for saving a marriage if there is something to be saved, but both people need to be "ALL IN" or it just will not work. Either way make sure you proceed with eyes wide open.


Hence, exposing the affair to family and friends and file concurrently. The intent to blow up the affair. Then, maybe, just maybe, a crack to reconcile. But, even if it doesn't lead to reconciling, I will have stood up for my marriage and family.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> I am walking away. I will be cancelling the mediation for 10/14. I will move on to retaining an attorney and filing. At the same time, I'll also be exposing and maybe timing filing and exposure at same time.


Respectfully... bull****. 

Listen man, I care about you. You’re not some random stranger across the internet that I’m trying to create drama in their life for ****s and giggles. 

I care because I was you. And I know what it’s like. 

I literally needed a buddy to write a post-it note that I put on my phone to call him instead of my ex wife... because she didn’t care. 

She didn’t care that I hurt. 

She didn’t care that she was smashing our dreams. 

She didn’t care that she was embarrassing herself. 

She didn’t care that she had no integrity. 

She didn’t care that I loved her and wanted her back no matter what. 

She didn’t care. 

Your wife doesn’t care. Expose all you want - I just suggest you do it as part of your settlement strategy - as in “I’ll expose everything if you don’t agree to a fair settlement.”

Do it for you. Don’t do it for your marriage, because your marriage now only exists on paper and in your head.


----------



## BluesPower

DrDetroit said:


> Or maybe I am reading it all wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't want to divorce her and trash my family. It also doesn't mean marriage at all costs. It does mean that I will do things that are healthy for me, gal, best dad, good person, and take actions that might improve the chances to reconcile rather than definitely blow up any chance.
> 
> I sorta feel like there are agendas here or at least comments reflecting strong personal biases and I'm trying to wade through that. It doesn't mean that advice isn't good or appreciated. It means that I have a goal. I am taking action toward that goal. That goal may or may not be realized, but in the end, I'll be better off either way.


Let me help you out with this. YOU HAVE IT ALL WRONG. EVERYSINGLE WAY, EVERYSINGLE THING YOU HAVE WRONG. NOT ONE THING ABOUT THIS HAVE YOU TRIED TO UNDERSTAND, OR DO YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU ARE A DOORMAT...

If you want to be a doormat, if you want to be in a cuckold relationship that is your business. 

But if you want to get yourself out of infidelity, if you want to have even the slightest chance at saving your marriage then you would be smart to listen to what everyone is telling you. 

You don't have to worry about blowing up your marriage, she has already blown that up and she is continuing. 

And good grief, you have kids, do you know that they are watching your actions. They will find out at some point what has been going on. 

Do you want them to look at you and the way that you handled this situation with shame, to hang their heads because you did not have to courage to divorce their cheating mother? Is that what you want...

Because at some point, in 10 days or 10 years, they are going to find out... what type of example do you want to set...


----------



## DrDetroit

BluesPower said:


> Let me help you out with this. YOU HAVE IT ALL WRONG. EVERYSINGLE WAY, EVERYSINGLE THING YOU HAVE WRONG. NOT ONE THING ABOUT THIS HAVE YOU TRIED TO UNDERSTAND, OR DO YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU ARE A DOORMAT...
> 
> If you want to be a doormat, if you want to be in a cuckold relationship that is your business.
> 
> But if you want to get yourself out of infidelity, if you want to have even the slightest chance at saving your marriage then you would be smart to listen to what everyone is telling you.
> 
> You don't have to worry about blowing up your marriage, she has already blown that up and she is continuing.
> 
> And good grief, you have kids, do you know that they are watching your actions. They will find out at some point what has been going on.
> 
> Do you want them to look at you and the way that you handled this situation with shame, to hang their heads because you did not have to courage to divorce their cheating mother? Is that what you want...
> 
> Because at some point, in 10 days or 10 years, they are going to find out... what type of example do you want to set...


The kids on both sides already know that there was an "inappropriate relationship".

I have posters here suggesting that I expose and to not expose. No consensus. I have posters suggesting that I 180 and to not. No consensus. I have posters saying just give it up and move on. Well, in a way, I am, by moving to filing.

What am I not listening to?


----------



## Marc878

DrDetroit said:


> Look, guys, I know what my wife has told...while she continues her contact with the OM. In other words, while she maintains hope for something greener on the other side.
> 
> But I have heard her say lots of things. Her reaction last week when I blew up the attempted meeting with the OM was revealing. She didn't have to not go see him, but she chose not to. She didn't have to get all upset about me blowing it up, but she did.
> 
> Or maybe I am reading it all wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't want to divorce her and trash my family. It also doesn't mean marriage at all costs. It does mean that I will do things that are healthy for me, gal, best dad, good person, and take actions that might improve the chances to reconcile rather than definitely blow up any chance.
> 
> I sorta feel like there are agendas here or at least comments reflecting strong personal biases and I'm trying to wade through that. It doesn't mean that advice isn't good or appreciated. It means that I have a goal. I am taking action toward that goal. That goal may or may not be realized, but in the end, I'll be better off either way.


It's a forum you take what you need/want and leave the rest.


----------



## Lostinthought61

DrDetroit said:


> Look, guys, I know what my wife has told...while she continues her contact with the OM. In other words, while she maintains hope for something greener on the other side.
> 
> But I have heard her say lots of things. Her reaction last week when I blew up the attempted meeting with the OM was revealing. She didn't have to not go see him, but she chose not to. She didn't have to get all upset about me blowing it up, but she did.
> 
> Or maybe I am reading it all wrong. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't want to divorce her and trash my family. It also doesn't mean marriage at all costs. It does mean that I will do things that are healthy for me, gal, best dad, good person, and take actions that might improve the chances to reconcile rather than definitely blow up any chance.
> 
> I sorta feel like there are agendas here or at least comments reflecting strong personal biases and I'm trying to wade through that. It doesn't mean that advice isn't good or appreciated. It means that I have a goal. I am taking action toward that goal. That goal may or may not be realized, but in the end, I'll be better off either way.


it also doesn't mean you have to be treated like a doormat...i guess self respect comes at too high of a cost for you


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> The kids on both sides already know that there was an "inappropriate relationship".
> 
> I have posters here suggesting that I expose and to not expose. No consensus. I have posters suggesting that I 180 and to not. No consensus. I have posters saying just give it up and move on. Well, in a way, I am, by moving to filing.
> 
> What am I not listening to?


In general you expose only if you plan on reconciliation. Otherwise you use it as leverage to get a good divorce settlement. For reconciliation to happen, you have to have a good candidate for 'R'. You've confronted your wife about the affair, and she has showed no interest in reconciliation or any kind of remorse. That speaks volumes right there. I get that you would like to save your marriage. I've been there and done that, but the reality is it takes two willing participants. Your wife has told you she wants out, AND she is still communicating with the OM. At this point in time that leaves you nothing to work with.

I think you're doing the right thing proceeding with the divorce, but just be careful that you're not holding out false hope that it will somehow snap your wife back to reality and she'll magically be remorseful and want to reconcile. It does happen, but it is a very low percentage. Not to mention reconciliation can take years, and that is with a remorseful person really ready to put the work in on reconciliation.


----------



## Marc878

Marduk said:


> Yes you do. That’s all you want - a recipe to get her to pick you.
> 
> She won’t and she hasn’t. She’s out. And you need to accept that.
> 
> At any rate, your infinitesimally small shot at reconciliation is only if you walk away and she changes her mind. But you won’t do that.
> 
> Either way, you need to walk away. It’s your only play.
> 
> It’s just not what you want to hear.


From what I've seen this is very good advice. Sometimes you just have to drop the rope and let them go.

Exposure to be effective needs to be done early to try and break the affair. At this point I think you've missed that timing and it will only be viewed as a last minute manipulation/control on your part.

Your feelings on this will change like most. Upfront many just want them back but later question what they got back.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Your wife is done with your marriage. She would be ending it with or without the affair... she just chose the cowardly way out by attaching herself to another man. She can legally divorce you with or without your cooperation. I see you are moving to filing, this is good... a much more dignified way to end all of this than kicking and screaming. Your wife has been a serial cheat and that isnt going to change no matter who she is with, so make it so that it isnt YOU any more. And keep working on your anger issues, good women dont want angry men.


----------



## honcho

DrDetroit said:


> Cling? No. Reconcile, yes. Im not here to help you understand why I want to reconcile. I am here to get practical advice to help me consider and pursue a goal. I appreciate your dose of reality, but it doesn't really help. I don't want anyone to blow smoke up my ass, in other words.


Her family in the end will side with her and given how far down the rabbit hole she is has probably already laid out the "bad husband" spin to them laying the groundwork for this divorce. You want her family/friends to shun her and try to snap her back, it can work but rarely when they are this far gone. It'll make you feel better temporarily but it comes at a cost. She's already got a seat in the victim chair, whining about money left and right. Come negotiation time she will put the screws to you. 

You want the affair to end, the om wife already knows and it's not slowing down. The om is in this for sex, the more she dumps her emotions on him and the more the prospect that she will be a free woman which mean's he needs to divorce and "step up to the plate" usually makes an affair die faster than anything. 

I personally think she's too far gone to pull this back. Cut your best financial deal you can with her and let her learn the hard way the fantasy storybook ending that she has playing in her head won't work. You get her mad, it'll drive her even more into her position and then you've got a bloodbath divorce. The best/only shot you've got is to what she thinks she wants and hope when she starts to see its not all that great she MIGHT reconsider. 

If she wants to reconsider, she will tell you, right now your just playing mind games with yourself trying to interpret her moves and its futile and too many of us have played that game.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Give him a bit. He’s getting advice from three places and is now thinking extremely Black and white. Unfortunately, he is probably going to need to fall flat on his face. We have all watched it or experienced it, sometimes you need that abrupt slap to start thinking straight again.

Making things adversarial is not good, regardless of the situation. Keep thinking “me vs. the world” and you’ll be funding her dates and affairs through court ordered alimony.


----------



## DrDetroit

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Give him a bit. He’s getting advice from three places and is now thinking extremely Black and white. Unfortunately, he is probably going to need to fall flat on his face. We have all watched it or experienced it, sometimes you need that abrupt slap to start thinking straight again.
> 
> Making things adversarial is not good, regardless of the situation. Keep thinking “me vs. the world” and you’ll be funding her dates and affairs through court ordered alimony.


Well, my thinking has evolved toward black and white. And that's based on advice here and elsewhere and from convos with 2 attorneys. 

Stepping back here for moment, it's a little humorous the degree and intensity there is in some poster's declarations regarding the states of mind of my wife and the OM. And these are based only on what I have posted which is only snippets of real life.

Sure, there are analogous characteristics here as there are even between totally random events. A little humility could be expected.

Perhaps I will fall on my face. Perhaps I am still reacting irrationally rather than exercising sober judgment and radical acceptance. But I am clear on my goal and how I want to approach it even if some, based on my descriptions, and their own biases and priorities, don't understand it. For 2 weeks I have been floundering about, receiving conflicting advice here and elsewhere, and talked to 2 attorneys. That I have chosen a path that others don't agree with doesn't mean I am an idiot or otherwise.

I don't want to be combative here, just observing that after taking in a while lot of insight, suggestions, and slap-in-face pronouncements, I have hacked a plan together.

I get the risk that exposure could turn this adversarial and I see the judgment you're exercising in warning me off such an approach. It makes sense. But, a judge is unlikely going to make me pay more for telling our family and friends the truth. The mediator is unlikely to push me to accept an unacceptable division of assets because I told our friends and family the truth. 

Am I an idiot for seeing things this way? Maybe. Will I believe that I stood up for myself and family via exposure? Yes. I ain't going down without a fight and if at the end of the fight I don't reconcile, well, I would have done something.

Many of you think I am wasting my time and inflicting greater emotional pain on to myself. Well, I'm a man and I've endured emotional pain before. I'll take some more on if it means that I might reconcile my marriage.


----------



## TAMAT

DD,

You wrote, [/b]I get the risk that exposure could turn this adversarial and I see the judgment you're exercising in warning me off such an approach. It makes sense. But, a judge is unlikely going to make me pay more for telling our family and friends the truth. The mediator is unlikely to push me to accept an unacceptable division of assets because I told our friends and family the truth.*

If someone had stolen from you nobody would object to making the criminals name public and that's just money, how much more valuable is your family to you, large crimes do not deserve secrecy. Sunlight is a good cleanser of evil.*


----------



## honcho

DrDetroit said:


> Well, my thinking has evolved toward black and white. And that's based on advice here and elsewhere and from convos with 2 attorneys.
> 
> Stepping back here for moment, it's a little humorous the degree and intensity there is in some poster's declarations regarding the states of mind of my wife and the OM. And these are based only on what I have posted which is only snippets of real life.
> 
> Sure, there are analogous characteristics here as there are even between totally random events. A little humility could be expected.
> 
> Perhaps I will fall on my face. Perhaps I am still reacting irrationally rather than exercising sober judgment and radical acceptance. But I am clear on my goal and how I want to approach it even if some, based on my descriptions, and their own biases and priorities, don't understand it. For 2 weeks I have been floundering about, receiving conflicting advice here and elsewhere, and talked to 2 attorneys. That I have chosen a path that others don't agree with doesn't mean I am an idiot or otherwise.
> 
> I don't want to be combative here, just observing that after taking in a while lot of insight, suggestions, and slap-in-face pronouncements, I have hacked a plan together.
> 
> I get the risk that exposure could turn this adversarial and I see the judgment you're exercising in warning me off such an approach. It makes sense. But, a judge is unlikely going to make me pay more for telling our family and friends the truth. The mediator is unlikely to push me to accept an unacceptable division of assets because I told our friends and family the truth.
> 
> Am I an idiot for seeing things this way? Maybe. Will I believe that I stood up for myself and family via exposure? Yes. I ain't going down without a fight and if at the end of the fight I don't reconcile, well, I would have done something.
> 
> Many of you think I am wasting my time and inflicting greater emotional pain on to myself. Well, I'm a man and I've endured emotional pain before. I'll take some more on if it means that I might reconcile my marriage.


In most cases a judge or a mediator could care less if you exposed, she had an affair etc. How bad does she want out and how lenient in the deal is the question. 50/50 split rarely happens despite all the fair and equitable crap lawyers and judges spew. She wants out, she's far more willing to take a less favorable settlement so she can run off to dreamland now. Judges and mediators don't want to make decisions, they want the 2 of you to figure out the split. 

You know your financial position and should have an idea of how much it's gonna cost you. If say your on the hook for 10 years alimony as an example, today she may very well take 5 year's to get a deal done today. You make her mad and she pushing for all 10 years. These are the things you need to think about. Your heart wants R, we get that but eating ramen noodles get old quick. Some people have gotten sweetheart deals cause a wayward spouse is so convinced eutopia awaits after divorce.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Well, my thinking has evolved toward black and white. And that's based on advice here and elsewhere and from convos with 2 attorneys.
> 
> Stepping back here for moment, it's a little humorous the degree and intensity there is in some poster's declarations regarding the states of mind of my wife and the OM. And these are based only on what I have posted which is only snippets of real life.
> 
> Sure, there are analogous characteristics here as there are even between totally random events. A little humility could be expected.
> 
> Perhaps I will fall on my face. Perhaps I am still reacting irrationally rather than exercising sober judgment and radical acceptance. But I am clear on my goal and how I want to approach it even if some, based on my descriptions, and their own biases and priorities, don't understand it. For 2 weeks I have been floundering about, receiving conflicting advice here and elsewhere, and talked to 2 attorneys. That I have chosen a path that others don't agree with doesn't mean I am an idiot or otherwise.
> 
> I don't want to be combative here, just observing that after taking in a while lot of insight, suggestions, and slap-in-face pronouncements, I have hacked a plan together.
> 
> I get the risk that exposure could turn this adversarial and I see the judgment you're exercising in warning me off such an approach. It makes sense. But, a judge is unlikely going to make me pay more for telling our family and friends the truth. The mediator is unlikely to push me to accept an unacceptable division of assets because I told our friends and family the truth.
> 
> Am I an idiot for seeing things this way? Maybe. Will I believe that I stood up for myself and family via exposure? Yes. I ain't going down without a fight and if at the end of the fight I don't reconcile, well, I would have done something.
> 
> Many of you think I am wasting my time and inflicting greater emotional pain on to myself. Well, I'm a man and I've endured emotional pain before. I'll take some more on if it means that I might reconcile my marriage.


I want you to read this just so you’re not surprised if her family and friends just circle their wagons and ostracize you:
https://news.umich.edu/commit-a-crime-loved-ones-got-your-back/


----------



## lucy999

@honcho is so right. Keep things status quo (meaning don't expose--use as leverage) if you have any concern for how the financials will shake out. Strike fast and hot while she is in the affair fog and is wanting out ASAP.

I also think she is too far gone to be a good candidate for R. If I thought otherwise, I wouldn't have advised you to not expose.


----------



## Marc878

It's your life your call not ours.


----------



## alte Dame

I think it's perfectly reasonable to tell family and friends that she is in an affair. I don't think you should blast the news to hundreds of people on social media, but those who are close to you should be informed. As suggested, you can hold back on any exposure to gain some leverage in your negotiations, but in the end it's your choice when you expose.

From what you've told us, exposure isn't going to bring her back to you. It will, however, allow you to offer a truthful narrative before her spin and lies take hold.


----------



## DrDetroit

Interesting development last night - saw an email from my wife to the OM indicating that she would respect the request for no further communication. I didn't see what prompted that reply.

I suspect that getting together with the OMs wife and one of my wife's friends this past weekend may have played a role since we discussed what no contact would look like and getting over the OMs wife's thoughts that insisting on no contact was too controlling.

For their kids sake, I do hope that they recover their marriage.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Interesting development last night - saw an email from my wife to the OM indicating that she would respect the request for no further communication. I didn't see what prompted that reply.
> 
> I suspect that getting together with the OMs wife and one of my wife's friends this past weekend may have played a role since we discussed what no contact would look like and getting over the OMs wife's thoughts that insisting on no contact was too controlling.
> 
> For their kids sake, I do hope that they recover their marriage.


Again man, get your head on straight. 

She didn’t stop communications for you or for your marriage. 

She stopped because he asked her to. She just got dumped, probably. 

She respects him but not you. That’s what this means.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Interesting development last night - saw an email from my wife to the OM indicating that she would respect the request for no further communication. I didn't see what prompted that reply.
> 
> I suspect that getting together with the OMs wife and one of my wife's friends this past weekend may have played a role since we discussed what no contact would look like and getting over the OMs wife's thoughts that insisting on no contact was too controlling.
> 
> For their kids sake, I do hope that they recover their marriage.


Sorry, but the hell with them doc, not everything is reconcilable. Not wanting to be a p****, but to make the world livable some choose the right things. Not to say yours won't suit you. But sometimes linear is black and white, enough to do the unthinkable.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marduk said:


> Again man, get your head on straight.
> 
> She didn’t stop communications for you or for your marriage.
> 
> She stopped because he asked her to. She just got dumped, probably.
> 
> She respects him but not you. That’s what this means.


Hey, I'm not deluding myself on that point. It was an interesting development, though.

I also talked to her sister last night about exposure. She cautioned me that I should be really clear in my own head about what I want to accomplish by doing so. She knew the OM was in the picture but only that my wife had romantic feelings. She also said that she wishes she had come down much harder on my wife this summer when they talked. They have a hard relationship and her sister was avoiding a conflict. Nonetheless, I also found out that her other sister, mom, and her dad's new wife also were aware there was an OM and that her mom reacted quite negatively to that. What they knew at the time was that she and I were separating and we're working on the marriage.

I post none of this to signal that I am encouraged or that I have generated new hope. I am posting this because this place is an outlet where I can share it.

The convo with her sister has given me pause on the exposure plan. She did agree with me about my wife's foggy thinking and agreed that it might shock her or wake her up. But who knows.

Right now, I'm leaning toward exposing so that my side is heard, ie., while our marriage was hard on Sarah it was not 100% bad as she is rewriting it, I'm opening that and have been taking specific steps to change, and that while I don't want to be divorced, the affair happened and continued contact or attempts to contact will definitely lead to divorce.

Thoughts?


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Hey, I'm not deluding myself on that point. It was an interesting development, though.
> 
> I also talked to her sister last night about exposure. She cautioned me that I should be really clear in my own head about what I want to accomplish by doing so. She knew the OM was in the picture but only that my wife had romantic feelings. She also said that she wishes she had come down much harder on my wife this summer when they talked. They have a hard relationship and her sister was avoiding a conflict. Nonetheless, I also found out that her other sister, mom, and her dad's new wife also were aware there was an OM and that her mom reacted quite negatively to that. What they knew at the time was that she and I were separating and we're working on the marriage.
> 
> I post none of this to signal that I am encouraged or that I have generated new hope. I am posting this because this place is an outlet where I can share it.
> 
> The convo with her sister has given me pause on the exposure plan. She did agree with me about my wife's foggy thinking and agreed that it might shock her or wake her up. But who knows.
> 
> Right now, I'm leaning toward exposing so that my side is heard, ie., while our marriage was hard on Sarah it was not 100% bad as she is rewriting it, I'm opening that and have been taking specific steps to change, and that while I don't want to be divorced, the affair happened and continued contact or attempts to contact will definitely lead to divorce.
> 
> Thoughts?


My thoughts are:

Leverage everything you have available to achieve a speedy and fair divorce and immediate separation of both your assets and your living space. 

Exposure can be an effective threat to induce this. Fire it off now, and then it’s used. By the time you divorce, her family will have circled their wagons against you, and a fair separation becomes harder. 

Keep this arrow in your quiver. Do what your lawyer tells you to do. 

Reconciliation with her is currently impossible and likely will be forever.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

It reads to me like the major family players already know about the OM, so what would really be the point of exposure now? Especially since now contact with OM has been forced to end. I get that you want your side to be heard, but honestly ask yourself what difference you believe that would make? I can tell you as a former wife who was way past DONE with my marriage when I filed for divorce, any moves you make such as this (and any digging in your heels with the divorce) are only driving her away that much faster and solidifying in her mind that she is making the right choice for herself by ending the marriage.


----------



## ButtPunch

Dr. D 

I also think exposure wouldn't be wise at this juncture.

People expose to put pressure on the affair.

Bring it into the light of day so to speak.

This pressure will sometimes end the affair.

It appears to me that she has been dumped. 

However it may only be temporary.

Her family will lend you a sympathetic ear but they will
choose her in the end.

Listen to the advice you are getting.

At this time, your wife is not reconciliation material.

There is nothing you nor I or TAM can do about it.

Accept your new reality and prepare for your future without her.


----------



## Marduk

Write this on a sticky note and put it on your mirror or up at work:

She doesn’t care about me. 
She wants and respects another man more than me. 
She doesn’t care about breaking up this family. 
Do not seek emotional validation and support from her. 
If I want to talk to her, call my buddy or post on TAM instead. 
Expect her to hurt me rather than protect me. 
Reasons why don’t matter. 
I will do exactly what my lawyer tells me to do.


----------



## Marduk

ButtPunch said:


> Dr. D
> 
> I also think exposure wouldn't be wise at this juncture.
> 
> People expose to put pressure on the affair.
> 
> Bring it into the light of day so to speak.
> 
> This pressure will sometimes end the affair.
> 
> It appears to me that she has been dumped.
> 
> However it may only be temporary.
> 
> Her family will lend you a sympathetic ear but they will
> choose her in the end.
> 
> Listen to the advice you are getting.
> 
> At this time, your wife is not reconciliation material.
> 
> There is nothing you nor I or TAM can do about it.
> 
> Accept your new reality and prepare for your future without her.


I agree she’s been dumped. 

She will find another man. She may pretend to reconcile in the meantime. 

It will be a lie. One that he desperately wants to be true. 

Guard against this.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> Hey, I'm not deluding myself on that point. It was an interesting development, though.
> 
> I also talked to her sister last night about exposure. She cautioned me that I should be really clear in my own head about what I want to accomplish by doing so. She knew the OM was in the picture but only that my wife had romantic feelings. She also said that she wishes she had come down much harder on my wife this summer when they talked. They have a hard relationship and her sister was avoiding a conflict. Nonetheless, I also found out that her other sister, mom, and her dad's new wife also were aware there was an OM and that her mom reacted quite negatively to that. What they knew at the time was that she and I were separating and we're working on the marriage.
> 
> I post none of this to signal that I am encouraged or that I have generated new hope. I am posting this because this place is an outlet where I can share it.
> 
> The convo with her sister has given me pause on the exposure plan. She did agree with me about my wife's foggy thinking and agreed that it might shock her or wake her up. But who knows.
> 
> Right now, I'm leaning toward exposing so that my side is heard, ie., while our marriage was hard on Sarah it was not 100% bad as she is rewriting it, I'm opening that and have been taking specific steps to change, and that while I don't want to be divorced, the affair happened and continued contact or attempts to contact will definitely lead to divorce.
> 
> Thoughts?


I call BS on the fact that her family knew about OM and thought you guys were separating. It sounds like you have open communication with the sister - I'm surprised nobody in her family contacted you to offer their support during your time of need. If they knew and didn't say anything, that tells me that she told them she was leaving but you didn't know it yet. Doesn't sound like they thought you guys were trying to work it out at all. 

I would be careful about how much you share with her family members. If and when the line gets drawn in the sand they will be on her side - make no mistake about it. If things go south anything you've told her sister or other family members can and will be used against you. Also this really should be between you and your wife. I'm sorry to admit that when my wife told me that she wanted a divorce, I talked to her family and my family in hopes that someone could talk some sense in to her. Didn't matter - she was done. Whatever you do don't be that guy. This is between you and her and everyone else should really just stay out of it.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> I call BS on the fact that her family knew about OM and thought you guys were separating. It sounds like you have open communication with the sister - I'm surprised nobody in her family contacted you to offer their support during your time of need. If they knew and didn't say anything, that tells me that she told them she was leaving but you didn't know it yet. Doesn't sound like they thought you guys were trying to work it out at all.
> 
> I would be careful about how much you share with her family members. If and when the line gets drawn in the sand they will be on her side - make no mistake about it. If things go south anything you've told her sister or other family members can and will be used against you. Also this really should be between you and your wife. I'm sorry to admit that when my wife told me that she wanted a divorce, I talked to her family and my family in hopes that someone could talk some sense in to her. Didn't matter - she was done. Whatever you do don't be that guy. This is between you and her and everyone else should really just stay out of it.


Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well re why no one in her family reached out.

What I do know is that both her mom and her sister told her that trying to work on it while OM was in the picture was just not going to work.

So chalk that up as another signal that her version of separation in her mind never really included the option for reconciliation.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well re why no one in her family reached out.
> 
> What I do know is that both her mom and her sister told her that trying to work on it while OM was in the picture was just not going to work.
> 
> So chalk that up as another signal that her version of separation in her mind never really included the option for reconciliation.


Ah! Signs of awakening!

Don’t tell her family or friends of hers anything. Radio silence. 

If they attempt to reach out, just say you’re devastated and need to do what you need to do to look out for your kids and yourself.

My ex’s parents or sibling never called me once. They walked past me on the street like I never existed. After I did nothing wrong, she cheated and left. 

Her uncle and a cousin once talked to me. That’s it.

Expect total apathy or indignation with you. Up to you which one is worse.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't expect her to come back to you now that her affair is over. I suspect this was an exit affair and her way of completely cutting all emotional ties to you. She will soon be dating a new man. Just brace yourself for it.


----------



## DrDetroit

bandit.45 said:


> Don't expect her to come back to you now that her affair is over. I suspect this was an exit affair and her way of completely cutting all emotional ties to you. She will soon be dating a new man. Just brace yourself for it.


I know. I keep telling myself this. She didn't end contact, the OM did. I don't why, yet, but I've reached out to the OMs wife to see if she pushed for it or if he did it on his own.


----------



## Hoosier

I was divorced 8 years ago when my wife of 30 years had an affair and moved in with the OM. I never heard one word from any of her 5 brothers. Her sister reached out to me, but NOT ONE OF THE OTHERS. Blood is thicker than water.....trust me.

What helped me at that point,(where you are now) is as I drove around town I kept repeating to myself "She doesnt love me" over and over. After about the 10,000 time I started to get it.

I finally hurried towards divorce when I realized she was not changing her mind anytime soon. i told myself that if we divorced we could always reconcile later and remarry! So I used her being in the cloud to get the best deal that I could. That should be you.


----------



## Marc878

If she did come around now it would be only because you're plan B. Plan A took himself off the market.


----------



## honcho

DrDetroit said:


> Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well re why no one in her family reached out.
> 
> What I do know is that both her mom and her sister told her that trying to work on it while OM was in the picture was just not going to work.
> 
> So chalk that up as another signal that her version of separation in her mind never really included the option for reconciliation.


They wouldn't tell you cause your not family, you married a family member but your not blood. She had already laid the groundwork for divorce/separation and who knows the stories she told about you. This is all too common and standard fare unfortunately. 

The affair started getting exposed, its no longer just fun so OM bailed. Be aware that in a month or two when things calm down that it doesn't start up again as this commonly happen's also. From the sounds of it she got dumped. She still has feelings and wanted to pursue this. It's gonna take time for those feelings to dwindle so don't expect her to be all that pleasant. She'll be on the hunt for a new Mr perfect too and again this is all too common. Your a known quantity and she won't get the same high or rush from you so don't expect her to come running back


----------



## oldtruck

Marduk said:


> My thoughts are:
> 
> Leverage everything you have available to achieve a speedy and fair divorce and immediate separation of both your assets and your living space.
> 
> Exposure can be an effective threat to induce this. Fire it off now, and then it’s used. By the time you divorce, her family will have circled their wagons against you, and a fair separation becomes harder.
> 
> Keep this arrow in your quiver. Do what your lawyer tells you to do.
> 
> Reconciliation with her is currently impossible and likely will be forever.


Exposure is not effective at blackmailing and loses it's effectiveness when you
warn the WS that you are going to expose the affair. It gives them time to take
counter exposure measures to greatly diminish it's effect.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

Can I ask you something? Why are you so desperate to be with that kind of person?? I know that you are married but thia is a woman who doesnt love you,doesnt respect you or your feelings,and she cant care less about you. There are 3.500.000.000 woman in the world. Get a divorce,and find a wife who will be fatefull,who will love and respect you,and be happy.


----------



## Affaircare

@DrDetroit contacted me by PM and as most of you know, I don't usually speak privately with men, just as a way of staying on guard and having hard boundaries. To be clear, I just don't do stuff "secretly" and I figure anything that can be said to me in private message can be said in public or it shouldn't be said. 

So here's my take on all this. First, I can completely see why @DrDetroit is so confused! Some people say "Expose" ...others say "Don't expose." Some say "Divorce"...othes say "Don't divorce." And then everyone argues WITH EACH OTHER about why they're saying what they say, rather than spending the time to reseach @DrDetroit 's specific situation and speaking TO HIM and explaining why they recommend what they do. Please people--I get that our opinions may differ from each other, but let's speak to @DrDetroit and not to each other, and let's bear in mind him and where he is and where his mind is. 

Second, @DrDetroit, one thing that is clear from your posts is that are you very confused. It's clear because you are very literally all over the place. You are listening to this advice and doing a step or two but not all of it...you are listening to that suggestion but not really liking it so only doing part...you are listening to recommendations from a whole other website but just considering it and doing some yet not all. The end result is you, @DrDetroit, being all over the map. 

So let me simplify for you. Your wife is unfaithful. She may or may not have slept with OM yet, but she is clearly giving her affection to OM, her loyalty to OM, and her companionship if he would take it to OM. She has sworn those exclusively, 100% to you and only you (forsaking ALL OTHERS, remember?) so she has a moral and legal obligation to you...and she has no such thing to OM other than that she has a bunch of 'zing' feelings for him. 

At first you didn't want to accept that your wife was committing adultery. At first, she had done what almost every cheating spouse does: re-written marital history so that she is the victim and you are the bad guy. And you bought into that and believed it. Okay, fair enough. Maybe you weren't Prince Charming and there were character flaws that could have been better...and it is right and reasonable for you to admit those and work on them...but no flaw justifies adultery. NOPE--that is 100% on her. 

At this time (right now, today) she is still in contact with OM via email at least. She had been planning to meet OM for a romantic picnic just a few days ago! She continuously tries to DARVO you (that's Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) by denying that it's an affair (We are just friends!), attacking you (You have done this and this and this!), making herself the 'victim' and you the 'offender' (even though she is the one who is actually destroying the family and you are the victim of her violence). This is where we stand RIGHT NOW. 

So let's skip what many of the people here on TAM said (for now). Let's keep this simple. You see where you are today: the affair is ONGOING. Right now, she says wants out of the marriage and she doesn't want to fight about it--just agree to dividing it evenly and go to mediation for the rest. Right now, she ALSO wants to keep her current lifestyle of SAHM and PT job, and she wants you to pay her CS and alimony, and she wants you to be her "friend" so you can support her and she can vent at you. 

The question of the century is *WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? * 

All the other stuff--file, don't file, expose, don't expose, mediate, don't mediate, reconcile, don't reconcile, pay bills, don't pay bills--ALL of that stuff is not the root core issue. The root core issue is this: *WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?*

Depending on your answer to that core, key question, the other stuff will change and be different. Here's an example:

IF YOUR ANSWER IS "I AM GOING TO ATTEMPT TO RECONCILE AT ALL COSTS"
Then the recommendations are going to be aimed more at helping you accept that it takes TWO people to successfully, and truly, reconcile--and if you are the only one working on reconciling, it's not going to happen. The recommendations would be aimed at doing everything possible to bring the affair to the light of day and squash it (exposure). The recommendations would be aimed at showing you examples of what is rugsweeping and what is true recovery (so you can recognize them). The recommendations would be aimed at showing you what real repentance looks like and what regret looks like by contrast. The recommendations would be aimed at possibly giving you all the best steps you can take that MIGHT end the affair, and then if it's over and she has a soft, repentant heart, are the most likely shots at saving the marriage...with the liberal acknowledgement that honest change is very unlikely (in the 20 years I've been involved with infidelity I think I can count about eight maybe who truly recovered). 

IF YOUR ANSWER WAS "I AM GOING TO WORK THE MARRIAGEBUILDER PLAN AND GIVE THAT 2 MONTHS AND IF NOTHING CHANGES I'M DIVORCING WITH NO REGRETS"
The recommendations would be aimed at reading "His Needs/Her Needs" and "Lovebusters" and getting really knowledgable about those books. Bear in mind they are not the Bible, but rather two books written by a man just as human as you are. The recommendations would be aimed at getting to know your own needs and giving a good guess at hers, because chances are very good she will NOT be interested in opening up her heart to tell you! The recommendations would be aimed at being honest with yourself about the actions you've done to harm the love you two once had, and doing the work to be a completely different person. BUT the recommendations would ALSO be aimed at living Plan A and Plan B. Plan A is where you let her see what she'll be losing if she continues her affair and loses you; namely you let her see the ways you COULD (or do) meet her needs, and guess what? Being a SAHM with a PT job is one way you really meet her needs! You specifically do Plan A for a short, determined amount of time (I suggest no more than a couple weeks), and then you go decisively to Plan B. [I think this is where about 90% of TAM thinks you should be right now.] Plan B is initiating NO CONTACT with HER!! If she refuses to end her affair and keeps insisting on divorce, then EVEN MARRIAGE BUILDERS says to do a 180 and detach!! There is a sample letter you send to your cheating spouse, and it says you won't meet her needs or communicate with her in any way as long as she continues her affair. Plan B is where you let her see what life is like WITHOUT YOU and in order to do Plan B, you have to be brave and not break communication...you have to dis-entangle and let her go. 

Note that in the MarriageBuilders plan, there is exposure also, but it is usually right when you first discover proof of the affair as an attempt to stop it before it has a chance to build. In your case, discovery was a little while ago, and you didn't do anything--the benefit of exposure likely has passed. See, I believe in exposure if it's done decisively--like 1) ask them directly to stop, if they won't then 2) get a parent or mentor whom they'll listen to and ask them to stop, if they won't then 3) expose to both sets of parents, both sets of siblings, both sets of co-workers (if it was an office affair) or at least to your boss, and any pastors, mentors, or friends who are friends of the marriage who would encourage them to stop. Now, there is no point in exposing to her parents if they are going to say "We don't really want to get involved in your personal life" or to her friends if they are going to say "Well she did put up with a lot of abuse from you..." That exposure wouldn't have the desired benefit, would it?

IF YOUR ANSWER WAS "I AM DIVORCING AND NEVER LOOKING BACK"
The recommendations would be aimed at the most likely way to have the fastest, least animosity, least expensive divorce. If she's agreeable now just to get out, agree to what can be agreed to and mediate the rest...file jointly...DONE. Accept that she wants her affair partner, grieve, move on. DONE. No need to expose, you're done. No need to get her to stop seeing OM, you're done. No need to do anything other than look at where you went wrong, work on yourself in those areas so you are a better human being, and you're done. 

See how the recommendations change? 

So right now the big question is not "Should I do this?" or "Should I do that?" and then having everyone on TAM and MB give you advice and you do all the advice halfway and not really listening to anyone. Right now the big question is *WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?*

Sooo...when you PM'ed you asked: 


> I am wondering what your thoughts are around using the same words you did in your posts to me with my wife?
> 
> For example, when she wants to complain about work, should I use the words you did to me around benefits and costs and the cost of infidelity and a divorce is that I am no longer available to her as an emotional dumping ground, a shoulder to cry on, or a source for advice or sympathy?


Depends. What are you going to do? Are you reconciling at all costs? Then you would continue to be her doormat and let her cry on your shoulder and pretend nothing has happened. Are you going to attempt to recover? Recovery takes TWO and she's not in this with you (yet) but by allowing her to experience the consequences of her choice to continue adultery, she might (MIGHT) see the cost and the benefit of what she's choosing and might (MIGHT) become a better person and want to change the way she treats you so that your marriage becomes healthier. Are you going to attempt MB? Then are you in Plan A or Plan B? If Plan A, then you'd show her what she'd be missing--you would be a shoulder to cry on and you'd let her know that "See how I am able to listen and be supportive? You will lose this if you continue your affair." and you would ALWAYS link everything back to "Are you willing to end all contact with OM right now?" Are you divorcing no matter what (hey for some, adultery is a deal-breaker!)? Then yeah I would say use the words about costs and benefits a LOT and point them out every time. 



> I'm thinking about exposure and am getting a strong push for that from a poster at marriage builders. As you can tell from my posts, I'm being too reactive and relying on fear as I consider my actions.
> 
> Ugh, I'm at a complete disadvantage here trying to deal with all of this.


Regarding exposure, what are you going to do? Are you reconciling at all costs? Then why would you risk making her mad? Be a doormat and maybe things will go back to the way they were (rugsweep). Are you going to attempt to reconcile? Then expose ONLY with the intent of shining a light on the affair to the people who are likely to be affected by it: a)her parents and your parents, b) her siblings and your siblings, c) her boss (if it was a work affair), and your boss (to explain lack of productivity), d) the pastor, priest or minister if there is one, e) her mentors or marriage-friendly friends. The trick is that it can't be exposure to embarrass, or exposure for revenge...it must be with the heart intent to just make the cockroach skitter back into the darkness by shining a light on it. Are you divorcing no matter what? Then why expose? It won't stop the affair. It won't benefit you in the settlement. At this point, since you didn't expose when you found out, she's had plenty of time to spin an abuse story, and I'm sure it would only used as proof of what she's had to endure. 

You are at a complete disadvantage because of one thing. You don't know *WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO.* 

It's hard to make up your mind on such a big thing. It's going to impact so many lives, and the impact is going to be HUGE. But one way or another, your wife is currently committing adultery. One way or another this is happening. So the question remains: *WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?*

I suggest you drown out all the other talk and focus on that. *WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?* Once you have chosen what you are going to do, we don't have to agree with you. We aren't in your skin. We don't live your life. But once you have made a choice, then the second thing I recommend is COMMITTING to that plan, and you work the WHOLE THING doing exactly as it's supposed to be done with your whole heart. Don't go after it halfway or do some but not all... NOPE. Make up your mind, and then DO IT with all you have. 

My final thought: I want you to realize that when your spouse commits adultery, it is both morally and legally within your right to say "That is a deal-breaker for me. You broke the vows and I am choosing to let them stay broken." You are under no moral or legal obligation to do any work to fix what adultery had destroyed. Even Jesus said "I say to you that whoever divorces his wife except on the ground of unfaithfulness is making her an adulteress." Well...even the son of God said unfaithfulness was a deal-breaker! So if you choose to divorce with no looking back, that is a morally and legally legitimate choice to make! She is the one who destroyed with adultery--you just chose to not attempt to rebuild.


----------



## DrDetroit

How do we get AffairCare's gave on a box of Wheaties?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

DrDetroit said:


> How do we get AffairCare's gave on a box of Wheaties?


Listen to her as she is a true voice of wisdom on this board.


----------



## Hoosier

So............ WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO/



Think hard and decide on what YOU want. The decision you make may be wrong for some, right for others. But either way, you decide for YOU, that is your right! 

DECIDE and act on your decision. You can always adjust, but Aftercare was spot on. Decide then OMG please DO!

Friend of mine is getting divorced, he is now in year 4 of getting a divorce. Not a lot of money to divide, no minor children, just that he wants to R she does not. She has been more than willing to let him pay her bills, which if her were divorced he would not have to do here in Indiana. She treats him horribly, he now lives in Missouri, she in the family home in Indiana. But he continues to drag his feet. He hasnt decided what he is going to do. Dont be this guy.

So sorry you are here. My 30 year marriage disolving cost me 2 years of functionality, literally. I know the devestation, the hurt, the desperation. But time to suck it up! Time to decide. YOU DECIDE.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?


----------



## Affaircare

> How do we get AffairCare's face on a box of Wheaties?


----------



## DrDetroit

Thank you, Affaircare. Appreciate the reminder about PMs. I also appreciate very much the time and thought you out into that post. It was just right for me to cut through the clutter and make a choice now and begin to act on it.



Affaircare said:


> The question of the century is *WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? *


I'm going to work the Marriage Builder Plan for 3 months. I will run Plan A, starting today, for no more than 3 weeks. I was Plan A'ing her in June, our vacation in MI, and then the last week of July and first week of August until I found the affair. I then sort of Plan A'd her through August, ie, let her vent to me, encouraged her, supported her choices re work and pursuing a Masters. During each period, minimized love buster's, no angry outbursts, present, highly attentive to the kids. She noticed, acknowledged to me and others. 

I'm going to expose the affair to parents, siblings,and close friends. The intent is to a) acknowledge the affair and it's role in shifting us from a separation with a shot at reconciliation to divorce once it was discovered and exposed; and b) ask for their support. Yeah, I should have exposed sooner and should have reached out for support earlier, whatever. I know her oldest sister and mother both counseled her to ditch the OM and work with me, so that's what I am aiming for. Her teacher friends know that shes scheduled mediation and they're offering support, but they don't know about the affair. Exposure to be this weekend. Just not sure if a series of calls or an email (don't have all emails) or use text. Face to face not possible with most.

Regarding mediation, we have a session scheduled for 10-14 and it will cost $300. She's already signed up for and paid for the parenting class. I'm not sure how to handle this. I want to propose using the free county mediation services, $0 for 4 sessions and then $80 per after that. But, if I indicated that I want to keep the current mediation appointment or switch to the county, then I'd be sending mixed signals. I'd appreciate some advice here.

She doesn't know that I know that she got a request for no comms with the OM or that she agreed to respect it. And I do not know what precipitated the request from his side. I want to start Plan A'ing and when she acknowledges that she appreciates some help or support I have provided here then let her know there's more of that and then some if she gives up the OM affair and tries to work with me on reconciliation, albeit with different words.

Advice to implement this?

Did I miss something any of you may think is crucial?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

DrDetroit said:


> I want to start Plan A'ing and w*hen she acknowledges that she appreciates some help or support I have provided here then let her know there's more of that and then some if she gives up the OM affair and tries to work with me on reconciliation,* albeit with different words.
> 
> Advice to implement this?
> 
> Did I miss something any of you may think is crucial?


THIS PART will blow up in your face, most likely. Possibly a less blackmail-ish approach would be in order. You are essentially telling her that you are only doing these things to try and manipulate her into an R. 

I do wish you luck.


----------



## Tex X

DrD - I'm sorry man but I just read 'Plan A' and that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. I read the whole thing, but I almost stopped reading after the first sentence:

"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands."

I do wish you the best, but man I think you're setting yourself up for some serious heartache.


----------



## DrDetroit

3Xnocharm said:


> THIS PART will blow up in your face, most likely. Possibly a less blackmail-ish approach would be in order. You are essentially telling her that you are only doing these things to try and manipulate her into an R.
> 
> I do wish you luck.


Ah, I get it.

I was thinking about how Affaircare worded it. "See how I am able to listen and be supportive? You will lose this if you continue your affair." 

Or am I not supposed to say anything and let her recognize or realize it?


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> :frown2:.
> 
> She doesn't know that I know that she got a request for no comms with the OM or that she agreed to respect it. And I do not know what precipitated the request from his side. I want to start Plan A'ing and when she acknowledges that she appreciates some help or support I have provided here then let her know there's more of that and then some if she gives up the OM affair and tries to work with me on reconciliation, albeit with different words.
> 
> Advice to implement this?
> 
> Did I miss something any of you may think is crucial?


Bluntly, a side piece, even has limits, he knows its too much work for her......... You got to give credit, he even has limits what it's worth. Doc, do you really think this will matter to her? Hell no, she'll just go and get (in her mind another) better because she's so deserving. While you keep on trying, to fix her and fix everything. 

She's no longer a partner and she knows it, she will face some trials she will have to overcome. But again it's nothing in the realm of what your trying to do. I know you made the decision to do the steps you feel will bring you results. They are in vain. You have to it takes two fully committed adults no just one. 

She encourages you just enough in your mind to believe something other than what you see. But from the outside based on your information you leave here, bears light in a total different relationship. She will get another guy who wouldn't be weak that's is what she apparently appealed too. The type of shock therapy you dishing out to her is repuslive to her quite frankly. And is testing the waters of what she wants to avoid in another man. 

Your the last selection of the meal and she know this. In her world there is so much to choose from. Your the blackeyed peas, and the banquet is before her. Which do you think she will choose. Steak or peas? Filet or just the bread? YOU, need to go to a different place. Not just in your heart but, your mind.

Tilted


----------



## 3Xnocharm

DrDetroit said:


> Or am I not supposed to say anything and let her recognize or realize it?


Bingo.


----------



## ButtPunch

Uggghhhh

Plan A

Good Luck with that DD


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Ah, I get it.
> 
> I was thinking about how Affaircare worded it. "See how I am able to listen and be supportive? You will lose this if you continue your affair."
> 
> Or am I not supposed to say anything and let her recognize or realize it?


Actions > words.

There are literally no words required to be said here. Any words you say play into her thinking that you’ll always be there for her.

“Talk to my lawyer” should literally be the last words you speak to her that aren’t about your children or the logistics of your divorce.


----------



## Chaparral

Tex X said:


> DrD - I'm sorry man but I just read 'Plan A' and that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. I read the whole thing, but I almost stopped reading after the first sentence:
> 
> "Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands."
> 
> I do wish you the best, but man I think you're setting yourself up for some serious heartache.


I’ve been here and elsewhere several years. Plan A has never once worked. What it does do though is show the wayward spouse that the betrayed spouse has no self esteem and no backbone. Think of this Dr. how many men do you know getting married would say “if she cheats I will be even better for her, wait for the affair to end and take her back.”?

There is only a twenty percent chance a couple will stay together if the wife gets caught cheating. When a husband reacts the way you do, from what I have seen on this website for years, divorce is certain for you. That’s the good news. The bad news is your taking the long road to get there.

I believe you do not know how men behave that women appreciate. Just for kicks and giggles get THE MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER ( it is NOT a sex guide) and see how far off the mark you are. There is also a good book HOLD ON TO YOUR N.U.T.S. 

Also, look at Plan B. The author himself has no appreciation for Plan A.


----------



## Tron

DrDetroit said:


> I'm going to work the Marriage Builder Plan for 3 months. I will run Plan A, starting today, for no more than 3 weeks. I was Plan A'ing her in June, our vacation in MI, and then the last week of July and first week of August until I found the affair. I then sort of Plan A'd her through August, ie, let her vent to me, encouraged her, supported her choices re work and pursuing a Masters. During each period, minimized love buster's, no angry outbursts, present, highly attentive to the kids. She noticed, acknowledged to me and others.


Ugh. Marriage Builders Plan A...

I read what you wrote above, and read what you've told us so far about her reaction and her current thoughts on you and the status of your "marriage". 

I say with all the sarcasm I can muster, that four months into this...your Plan A has worked like a charm. 










I am not sure I will ever understand how kissing ass and handing over all of your dignity to a cheating ***** is supposed to save a marriage.


----------



## DrDetroit

Wow...

So much for "the plan".

I didn't realize the Plan A and B were so frowned upon here.

Is Harley's work generally not held in a positive light around here?

F&-k.


----------



## Tilted 1

Marduk said:


> Actions > words.
> 
> There are literally no words required to be said here. Any words you say play into her thinking that you’ll always be there for her.
> 
> “Talk to my lawyer” should literally be the last words you speak to her that aren’t about your children or the logistics of your divorce.


Or in your case Marduk "" Talk to the Hand !!""


----------



## DrDetroit

Chaparral said:


> I’ve been here and elsewhere several years. Plan A has never once worked. What it does do though is show the wayward spouse that the betrayed spouse has no self esteem and no backbone. Think of this Dr. how many men do you know getting married would say “if she cheats I will be even better for her, wait for the affair to end and take her back.”?
> 
> There is only a twenty percent chance a couple will stay together if the wife gets caught cheating. When a husband reacts the way you do, from what I have seen on this website for years, divorce is certain for you. That’s the good news. The bad news is your taking the long road to get there.
> 
> I believe you do not know how men behave that women appreciate. Just for kicks and giggles get THE MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER ( it is NOT a sex guide) and see how far off the mark you are. There is also a good book HOLD ON TO YOUR N.U.T.S.
> 
> Also, look at Plan B. The author himself has no appreciation for Plan A.


Ok, so, when a husband reacts as I have, divorce is certain.

What alternative approaches have you observed that have led to a repaired marriage?


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Wow...
> 
> So much for "the plan".
> 
> I didn't realize the Plan A and B were so frowned upon here.
> 
> Is Harley's work generally not held in a positive light around here?
> 
> F&-k.


Not frowned upon , doc but as things unfolded for you doesn't make sense.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, so, when a husband reacts as I have, divorce is certain.
> 
> What alternative approaches have you observed that have led to a repaired marriage?


A desire from both parties involved.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, so, when a husband reacts as I have, divorce is certain.
> 
> What alternative approaches have you observed that have led to a repaired marriage?


And quit taking the BLAME doc!


----------



## Affaircare

DrDetroit said:


> ... I'm going to work the Marriage Builder Plan for 3 months. I will run Plan A, starting today, for no more than 3 weeks. I was Plan A'ing her in June, our vacation in MI, and then the last week of July and first week of August until I found the affair. I then sort of Plan A'd her through August, ie, let her vent to me, encouraged her, supported her choices re work and pursuing a Masters. During each period, minimized love buster's, no angry outbursts, present, highly attentive to the kids. She noticed, acknowledged to me and others.


Okay if that is your decision, then let's make it concrete and put that into a calendar. As an example, you will attempt to Plan A until October 25th, and that day you will evaluate: is the affair over (no contact whatsoever)? is she willing to participate in reconciliation? or is the affair still ongoing and it's time to go to Plan B? If the affair is still ongoing and you choose to Plan B rather than file, you would attempt to Plan B through December 31st, and on that day you will again evaluate. Okay? Make it CONCRETE because you may be able to endure if you know there is an "end date" and it will tend to make you actually ACT rather than avoiding conflict and being a doormat. If you have a deadline, you are more likely to actually do something. 

Next, please review as clearly as you can exactly what Plan A is and is not. For example, it is not doing the "Pick Me!" Dance or letting your unfaithful spouse have their cake and eat it too! It's not rolling over and taking all the blame for their adultery either. So be clear. Know what you are aiming for: "My Plan A is to to take specific actions to end the affair, to practice ending angry outbursts and disrepectful judgments, and to practice meeting her top two emotional needs of conversation and affection." That way you have it clear in your mind exactly what you are doing and why and for how long. In my mind, I think of it like you are standing bravely and firmly FOR THE MARRIAGE and the family, and you will not participate in or contribute to ongoing infidelity...but you are willing to look at the man in the mirror and see what you need to do better. 

Here's the thing, though. In order for a Plan A to work, many things need to fall into place: a) The affair has to completely end--no communication ever again. b) She has to be willing to admit she was wrong in being unfaithful and willing to work on her own self to become a faithful person. c) The two of you together need to agree to rebuild a new, mature, healthy marriage...not return to "the way things were." In any one of these three things breaks down, then the marriage can not recover. 



> I'm going to expose the affair to parents, siblings,and close friends. The intent is to a) acknowledge the affair and it's role in shifting us from a separation with a shot at reconciliation to divorce once it was discovered and exposed; and b) ask for their support. Yeah, I should have exposed sooner and should have reached out for support earlier, whatever. I know her oldest sister and mother both counseled her to ditch the OM and work with me, so that's what I am aiming for. Her teacher friends know that shes scheduled mediation and they're offering support, but they don't know about the affair. Exposure to be this weekend. Just not sure if a series of calls or an email (don't have all emails) or use text. Face to face not possible with most.


Again, if you are going to do this, do it the full way that MB recommends. Don't skimp. MB recommends including: Parents of all concerned, family (siblings...grandparents), close friends (who are pro-marriage...no point in exposing to the friends who encouraged the adultery), children (their life is about to change drastically--tell them it's because mom had a boyfriend and you will not accept another man in the relationship), her workplace [if a workplace affair], YOUR workplace (so your boss understands why your productivity is shot), the spouse of the affair partner, and any pastor/priest/minister or pro-marriage mentor whom she looks up to and would listen to. 
An email or letter is fine. Do not tell her you are doing it, just expose. Here's an example: 

_Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with [a old boyfriend] [a co-worker] named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. He is also married and has young children . The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my bride, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,_

Now, word of warning. She is going to be MAD AS A WET HEN. I mean "spitting nails" "shooting daggers" mad. She'll likely try to DARVO you (since that is her usual method of operation) and that means she'll try to deny the affair, attack you, make herself the victim and you the offender. But if you know that's coming, when she does it, it shouldn't surprise you. You can be ready for it. 

@DrDetroit, let me tell ya, a marriage can survive anger...even a HUGE anger! But no marriage can survive ongoing infidelity. If the affair isn't completely and fully ended, there just will not be any reconciliation, it's that simple. So if she's mad, let her be mad. Let her try to say "How dare you air our dirty laundry and drag the family into this and lie about me and blahblahblah." Just don't fall into believing her rant. All you did was tell the family and friends THE TRUTH. If the truth was that she was an outstanding and faithful wife, I doubt if she'd be mad about you telling everyone! But instead she has committed adultery and wanted to do it in secret--you blew the secret wide open. This is all about HER choosing to be unfaithful...not about you choosing to tell the relatives the truth. Okay? Know that it's coming, brace yourself, prepare for it.

Once things die down (if they do), it is important that you present a plan--a roadmap if you will--of how you intend to recover the marriage. Step #1 HAS TO BE no contact, and a no contact letter MUST be sent...she writes it, you review it, and YOU send it on behalf of the both of you. Then Step #2 would be extraordinary measures implemented to begin restoring trust: a commitment to you, a full timeline, block loverboy on all potential methods of contact, account for time, account for money, spend time together (rather than apart). Step #3 would be building a whole new marriage: Policy of Joint Agreement, Radical Honesty, Meeting Emotional Needs, and ending Love Busters. But note to self, for step #3 to work BOTH have to build the new marriage...in other words, you can't do all the building and she doesn't agree to any of it. Both would be willing to enforce joint agreement on themselves...both would agree to be radically honest and hold themselves to it...both would agree to meet their spouse's emotional needs...both would agree to work on the lovebusters and stop them. 



> Regarding mediation, we have a session scheduled for 10-14 and it will cost $300. She's already signed up for and paid for the parenting class. I'm not sure how to handle this. I want to propose using the free county mediation services, $0 for 4 sessions and then $80 per after that. But, if I indicated that I want to keep the current mediation appointment or switch to the county, then I'd be sending mixed signals. I'd appreciate some advice here.


Going to the parenting class is fine. You can even go to yours if you want. Learning about parenting is never a bad thing, and you may need to know how to co-parent if she is not cooperative, doesn't end the affair, or ends the affair but divorces you anyway. So no worries about the parenting class. 

Regarding the mediation, I would just let her know that you can not attend 10-14 and you'd like to cancel it. I see no reason to pay $300 for something you don't want. However, you are intending to Plan A until 10-25, so why not recommend that it be postponed to 11-1 or so, and that instead of doing the $300 one, you propose the free county mediation service. This is not a mixed signal, in that you don't want her to know you are giving her a deadline. You are sharing with her that prior to 10-25 does not work for you. After 10-25 MIGHT (depending on how things go)... Also after 10-25, you don't want to spend money for something you two could do free free. So a) "I can't attend until November" (by then you'll know more) and b) "I do not want to pay $300, I want to use the free county option." 

However, I want you to brace yourself for the reality that none of this may work. These steps are a plan that has the POTENTIAL to work, but after exposure she may just move on out forever. Or after Plan A, she may have moved from EA to PA and choose to continue the affair. Or she may end the affair but refuse to look at herself and admit she was wrong to commit adultery (justify the heck out of it and DARVO), and continue with a divorce anyway. All this is, is a POSSIBLE outcome, not a guaranteed outcome, and thus, even though you don't want it, you would still be wise to learn about parenting and learn as much as you can about your rights and responsibilities if this should lead to divorce. Knowledge is power, so LEARN about affairs, marriage, and divorce. Read books, go to counseling, and do what you can knowing that you can not do it all...at some point if it's going to work, she will have to pitch in and you can't give her years to finally get there. 



> She doesn't know that I know that she got a request for no comms with the OM or that she agreed to respect it. And I do not know what precipitated the request from his side. I want to start Plan A'ing and when she acknowledges that she appreciates some help or support I have provided here then let her know there's more of that and then some if she gives up the OM affair and tries to work with me on reconciliation, albeit with different words.
> 
> Advice to implement this?


Yeah--the way you worded it there is the "Pick Me" Dance. Do you know what that is? It's when she has you jumping through hoops so she'll PICK YOU....and she has OM jumping through hoops to get into her pants. She's got you for money, lifestyle, and venting...she has him for emotional support, affectionate zing, and attraction. NO. 

So expose--use a SHORT letter/email, not a bunch of "she had an affair because I had anger issues"--let that settle. Be consistent on not financially supporting the affair. Be consistent on expressing anger and emotions in a mature and healthy way, but don't suppress them. And very, VERY consistently return to the message "Have you ended all contact yet? I would be happy to ____ when the affair is over." Don't let up on that.


----------



## ButtPunch

Tilted 1 said:


> Not frowned upon , doc but as things unfolded for you doesn't make sense.


I fundamentally frown on Plan A.

I hate it.

But I realize it's his life and his choice to proceed as he sees fit.

I agree with Affaircare that most importantly he needs to pick something and stick to it.

I am still married to my wife and I pretty much did the opposite of Plan A.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, so, when a husband reacts as I have, divorce is certain.
> 
> What alternative approaches have you observed that have led to a repaired marriage?


A wife who WANTS to stay married (or husband when the script is flipped) ... it is the ONLY thing that works to repair any marriage.


----------



## Tron

Plan A does not have any fans here. Mostly because we've never seen it work. Not once. And it promulgates more suffering. Why a man should suffer those conditions up to 6 months for an unfaithful woman, I will never know. Why not just hand her your manhood...and balls while you are at it! 

Just on a cursory read the only significant difference between the approach most would recommend here and MB Plan B is the actual filing for divorce part. 

Kick her out, tell her to move in with her lover. Or you move out and make her support herself. Detach. Live your life without her. Make it happen. 

One of our regular posters did that, and when the STBXW saw his profile up on OK Cupid, she about lost her ****.


----------



## DrDetroit

3Xnocharm said:


> A wife who WANTS to stay married (or husband when the script is flipped) ... it is the ONLY thing that works to repair any marriage.


Yep, but I was asking for an alternative to how I have reacted. That was chaparral's point...when he has seen a husband reacts as I have, it's inevitably led to divorce.

The implication is that had I reacted differently or would choose to act differently now then the outcome may be something other than divorce.


----------



## Tilted 1

Really? You will be a different person, in your next relationship. Don't you think? Because the original one is gone!


----------



## Tilted 1

The saying goes " Are doomed to repeat history, if you forgot it"" ( short version


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> Yep, but I was asking for an alternative to how I have reacted. That was chaparral's point...when he has seen a husband reacts as I have, it's inevitably led to divorce.
> 
> The implication is that had I reacted differently or would choose to act differently now then the outcome may be something other than divorce.


The only way to save a marriage such as yours is to be willing to risk losing it by filing and proceeding with divorce. The 'D' can always be stopped if you have a remorseful wayward who is willing to put in the hard work of reconciliation. But you don't - not even close. So unless you're asking for alternative methods of being a doormat to save your marriage, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Really the only way this plays out is you get your balls back and not allow yourself to be treated this way. That may save your marriage or it may end it. But you have to be prepared for either outcome. It sucks, but you only control 50% of the equation. Begging, pleading, negotiating, hoping, forgiving a wayward unremorseful spouse is just a recipe for disaster. She has to want to be here you know? There is no alternative plan to save your marriage if one party is already checked out for good. You need to think about that.


----------



## Tilted 1

3Xnocharm said:


> A wife who WANTS to stay married (or husband when the script is flipped) ... it is the ONLY thing that works to repair any marriage.


That's how l should have explained it, thanks 3x


----------



## Affaircare

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, so, when a husband reacts as I have, divorce is certain.
> 
> What alternative approaches have you observed that have led to a repaired marriage?


Interesting you should ask that. I know of two marriages here on TAM that involved an affair that successfully reconciled: my marriage to Dear Hubby and @No Longer Lonely Husband. I will leave it to NLLH to tell you how their marriage was recovered, but here's what happened in my case

We were in our early-40's and I was pregnant. I love kids and we were over the moon happy, but I lost the baby at 20 weeks. After that we had a lot of trouble although we were trying so we went to the doc and found out that we would never have a child. So double grief. I grieve by needing to come together and hug...Dear Hubby grieved by withdrawing and processing it in his own mind. I saw that as him leaving me in my biggest time of need, and then staying away even when I tried to connect. So eventually I thought "Okay I'll do this hobby on my own--I've always liked this..." and I did my own thing. Someone who also did that hobby saw me and said I was great at it...he admired my skills...he admired me. And the whole time I honestly did wish it was my own husband interested in me, but someone else went overboard to say they were interested. I was hooked. 

When my Dear Hubby found out, I think for the first while he gathered info. But eventually the day came that he confronted me, and what he did was jaw-droppingly brave. He packed my luggage, drove me to the bus/train station, and said, "Okay you are completely free to choose whether you get on the bus or train and go to him, or you get back in the car and come home with me, but as of right now you are making a choice. If you choose to get on that bus, the door to me is closed FOREVER and you will never, ever be able to come back to me. You will lose me entirely. But if you get back in the car and come home with me, we can work together and rebuild this. But I won't share my wife. If you come back you will never, ever be able to contact the OM in any way ever again. So you choose and you live with the consequence of your choice, right now."

He also wrote an email to OM and copied me and he said, "She is my WIFE. If you think for one second that I am just going to roll over and let you have her, you have another thing coming! I will fight for my family." I had no idea he even cared, much less that he was willing to do something to keep me. That said a lot to me about his bravery and that I was meaningful to him. 

So nope, he didn't do the Plan A/Plan B thing. He was a man of action and few words, but he had always been the kind of man who actually DID what he SAID (his words and actions matched) so I knew that when he said the door would be closed forever, he meant it. I also knew that when he said we would work on it together, that he meant that too, and MAN did he ever do what he said! He was gracious to me when I didn't deserve it. He was brave when I know for a fact he was scared out of his mind. And I look back on him with the utmost respect and dignity because he had the courage to be a man and stand for his family...and to guide me back to being a woman I am proud to be.

I know the MB Plan A/Plan B plan; I started off there in 2000. I am not sure how many marriage have or have not been saved using that plan. I do know that for me, what it took was that moment of pretty much sheer terror realizing he did care about me and if I continued what I knew was wrong, he would close the door for good. 

@No Longer Lonely Husband, want to tell @DrDetroit how you reconciled?


----------



## Marduk

Ever see the movie Aliens?

If so, remember the part where Ripley wants to blast off and nuke the entire site from orbit, just to be sure it doesn’t spread? And then they waffle and almost everybody dies?

This is kind of like that. 

Decisive action to limit everyone’s trauma - including but not limited to yours. That includes you getting the hell out of there.


----------



## DrDetroit

Affaircare said:


> Interesting you should ask that. I know of two marriages here on TAM that involved an affair that successfully reconciled: my marriage to Dear Hubby and @No Longer Lonely Husband. I will leave it to NLLH to tell you how their marriage was recovered, but here's what happened in my case


Thank you for sharing. I am very appreciative of your posts.

I'd love to identify such a brave action and find the bravery to execute it. I'm afraid, though, that I couldn't enforce it. But maybe that's not the point and I am really afraid that she'll just laugh at me knowing that she's done and I couldn't enforce it.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Thank you for sharing. I am very appreciative of your posts.
> 
> I'd love to identify such a brave action and find the bravery to execute it. I'm afraid, though, that I couldn't enforce it. But maybe that's not the point and I am really afraid that she'll just laugh at me knowing that she's done and I couldn't enforce it.


That fear - that she’s well aware of - is exactly why she wouldn’t end the affair for you, and why she isn’t taking this seriously. 

She believes, quite rightly, that you’re bluffing. 

So don’t bluff. 

When things were really really bad, I took a walk. I came home. I slept in the spare bed. I went to work, came home, ignored the wife and spent time with the kids. Took a walk. Slept in the spare bed. 

Over and over again, for days. And all I thought about was that it was over, and I had to let it all go. It was done. Our little integrated family. My dreams for our future. My best friend. All over. 

And I lived with that for days until it was real. 

And then I was done. And then I called a lawyer. Looked at places nearby. Changed my entire frame with her. She was an annoyance, an impediment, a necessary evil because of the kids. And I was going out without her, I was having fun without her, and I was acting single without her (no dating of course). 

And I told her I was done and that time she believed it. 

And that’s when everything changed between us. I had no fear. I was ready. I had a plan. I was executing the plan. And she knew she had to get ready to lose me and everything I came with. 

And she changed. And has never changed back - not once. To this day, every once in a while, she’ll let out a little “please don’t leave me.” And I’ll say “ever talk to that guy again?” And she’ll say no. And then I’ll say that I’m not going anywhere as long as that’s the case. 

And that’s years later.

That wasn’t a physical affair like yours, but it did involve lying, it did involve her not giving this guy up, and it did involve “him or me.”

And I’ll tell you right now: she had to convince me to stay, and I would have been just fine if she hadn’t.


----------



## DrDetroit

Bah, ****ed up...

Signed my youngest up for an after school activity and didn't confirm with wife or put it on our activity calendar.

Another love buster - I didn't follow through on a commitment I made.

So I get this text:
when you. offically sign the boys up for activities can you pleas ewrite it on the calander or send a text. i did not know 10 year old had science club today since you didnt congirm or write that it was paid for. we are still parents together.

I want to reply that shes right, I left her in the dark about it, and will be sure to update that calendar.


----------



## Casual Observer

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, so, when a husband reacts as I have, divorce is certain.
> 
> What alternative approaches have you observed that have led to a repaired marriage?


You’ve got to stop living in the land of self-doubt. A poor plan, executed well, has a much better chance of success than vacillating constantly between different options and never seeing anything through to a conclusion. 

You need to win, or lose. But you sound like you’d be happy to be in a 23 inning baseball game without sign of an end. You’re doing everything possible to avoid a conclusion. 

I suggest you stop posting and reading on TAM entirely, since obviously it’s done nothing more than convince you an outcome can be delayed until you wear out the other side maybe?

Just do something. If it’s Plan A you like, then stop looking for support here, just do it. Because all that happens when you want Plan A and everyone here disagrees, is you try to come up with a compromise and a compromise WILL NOT WORK.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I don’t think she cares if he’s bluffing or anything else. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Bah, ****ed up...
> 
> Signed my youngest up for an after school activity and didn't confirm with wife or put it on our activity calendar.
> 
> Another love buster - I didn't follow through on a commitment I made.
> 
> So I get this text:
> when you. offically sign the boys up for activities can you pleas ewrite it on the calander or send a text. i did not know 10 year old had science club today since you didnt congirm or write that it was paid for. we are still parents together.
> 
> I want to reply that shes right, I left her in the dark about it, and will be sure to update that calendar.


Your options:

(a) nothing
(b) "LOL"
(c) "Sure thing. Can you also update the calendar with the date when your boyfriend dumped you?"
(d) "I signed him up and paid for it. That's all you need to know. Take this as your notification that it has happened."

I'm mostly kidding about c. It's too passive aggressive. Mostly.


----------



## Marduk

3Xnocharm said:


> I don’t think she cares if he’s bluffing or anything else.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If he gets to a place where he's not bluffing, he'll see that he's better off without her.


----------



## bandit.45

Casual Observer said:


> I suggest you stop posting and reading on TAM entirely, since obviously it’s done nothing more than convince you an outcome can be delayed until you wear out the other side maybe?
> 
> Just do something. If it’s Plan A you like, then stop looking for support here, just do it. Because all that happens when you want Plan A and everyone here disagrees, is you try to come up with a compromise and a compromise WILL NOT WORK.


It’s not OP’s job to do everything we tell him to a T. This is an advice and opinion forum. Advice and opinions are all we can give, and it is his choice to follow the advice or ignore it. 

Don’t get bent out of shape just because it seems he’s not taking your advice.


----------



## Casual Observer

bandit.45 said:


> It’s not OP’s job to do everything we tell him to a T. This is an advice and opinion forum. Advice and opinions are all we can give, and it is his choice to follow the advice or ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get bent out of shape just because it seems he’s not taking your advice.


Up to now I hadn’t really given any advice!  

My point is that he needs to do one thing and follow through on it. He’s just getting confused with everything we’re throwing at him.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Affaircare said:


> Interesting you should ask that. I know of two marriages here on TAM that involved an affair that successfully reconciled: my marriage to Dear Hubby and @No Longer Lonely Husband. I will leave it to NLLH to tell you how their marriage was recovered, but here's what happened in my case
> 
> We were in our early-40's and I was pregnant. I love kids and we were over the moon happy, but I lost the baby at 20 weeks. After that we had a lot of trouble although we were trying so we went to the doc and found out that we would never have a child. So double grief. I grieve by needing to come together and hug...Dear Hubby grieved by withdrawing and processing it in his own mind. I saw that as him leaving me in my biggest time of need, and then staying away even when I tried to connect. So eventually I thought "Okay I'll do this hobby on my own--I've always liked this..." and I did my own thing. Someone who also did that hobby saw me and said I was great at it...he admired my skills...he admired me. And the whole time I honestly did wish it was my own husband interested in me, but someone else went overboard to say they were interested. I was hooked.
> 
> When my Dear Hubby found out, I think for the first while he gathered info. But eventually the day came that he confronted me, and what he did was jaw-droppingly brave. He packed my luggage, drove me to the bus/train station, and said, "Okay you are completely free to choose whether you get on the bus or train and go to him, or you get back in the car and come home with me, but as of right now you are making a choice. If you choose to get on that bus, the door to me is closed FOREVER and you will never, ever be able to come back to me. You will lose me entirely. But if you get back in the car and come home with me, we can work together and rebuild this. But I won't share my wife. If you come back you will never, ever be able to contact the OM in any way ever again. So you choose and you live with the consequence of your choice, right now."
> 
> He also wrote an email to OM and copied me and he said, "She is my WIFE. If you think for one second that I am just going to roll over and let you have her, you have another thing coming! I will fight for my family." I had no idea he even cared, much less that he was willing to do something to keep me. That said a lot to me about his bravery and that I was meaningful to him.
> 
> So nope, he didn't do the Plan A/Plan B thing. He was a man of action and few words, but he had always been the kind of man who actually DID what he SAID (his words and actions matched) so I knew that when he said the door would be closed forever, he meant it. I also knew that when he said we would work on it together, that he meant that too, and MAN did he ever do what he said! He was gracious to me when I didn't deserve it. He was brave when I know for a fact he was scared out of his mind. And I look back on him with the utmost respect and dignity because he had the courage to be a man and stand for his family...and to guide me back to being a woman I am proud to be.
> 
> I know the MB Plan A/Plan B plan; I started off there in 2000. I am not sure how many marriage have or have not been saved using that plan. I do know that for me, what it took was that moment of pretty much sheer terror realizing he did care about me and if I continued what I knew was wrong, he would close the door for good.
> 
> @No Longer Lonely Husband, want to tell @DrDetroit how you reconciled?


Affair Care , first of all , you rock.

@Dr.Detroit,

My story is quite mundane. Caught my wife at her company open house with a coworker I will refer to as “Richard Cranium”.
I was not invited to the open house, I thought it somewhat strange other spouses were invited and not me, so I crashed it. FWW was busted.

I handed my wine glass to her as she stood with Richard Cranium, and simply said if you decide to come home tonight we will talk. If not, papers will be delivered soon. I left, she incessantly called my cell which I ignored. She was home within twenty minutes giving me all kinds of BS, I simply looked at her and in a quiet stern voice said, “I am done. Have a nice life with Richard cranium. 

I took our marital bed which came from Germany with my moms parents and built a bonfire at my farm, texting FWW a message along with the video. Messag received, crystal clear. 

I went to our condo in Naples and told her to stay the hell away from me.

My next step was extreme exposure. I do not do anything Half assed. It was parents, siblings, and close friends. Next it was Facebook noting I was now single, she cheated and with whom she was cavorting.

Then I left for Naples for almost six weeks.She tried to ambush me, but I left Naples for Charleston SC.

I had all kinds of legal **** transpiring, business valuations as appraisals being done, and told her divorce papers on the way baby. 

Point is I went full metal jacket on her. She was listless after I dropped the ziggy. Shocked, out of sorts, dazed, confused. Scared,she was. Hate to say it....I took great pride in turning up the heat. 

Christmas Eve at request of kids, I cane home to a party at my parents. FWW was invited and had on her LBD I bought her the previous Christmas. I knew she was sending me a signal. However, I told her I would come by our house and get some provisions as I was headed to our farm to spend Christmas by myself. She was utterly sad. 

When I went by the house, we started talking and I told her everything about my combat experience and driving through the highway of death. I never told anyone of the horrors I experienced. She did not see me as the monster I felt I had become, she held me while I sobbed and she did too. Cathartic for m to say the least. She begged and pleaded for a second chance, which I granted. Now we are going on four years of R.Why you might ask.....because I laid it all on the line and was willing to lose my marriage. FWW, had never seen the SOB I could be if necessary. She started pursuing me.Lol.

Point is sir, you have to be indifferent, irreverent, firm, inflexible,and lastly unpredictable. >

Wife was beefing for a second chance. I am not a badass. I am a guy who listened to the good people on here who had my back and gave me 100% spot on accurate ways to address the situation.

Strength not passivity Dr.D. Be bold >


----------



## Affaircare

DrDetroit said:


> Bah, ****ed up...
> 
> Signed my youngest up for an after school activity and didn't confirm with wife or put it on our activity calendar.
> 
> Another love buster - I didn't follow through on a commitment I made.
> 
> So I get this text:
> when you. offically sign the boys up for activities can you pleas ewrite it on the calander or send a text. i did not know 10 year old had science club today since you didnt congirm or write that it was paid for. we are still parents together.
> 
> I want to reply that shes right, I left her in the dark about it, and will be sure to update that calendar.



Okay this is an excellent example. 

This does not involve the affair at all. This involves you and your children and being a parent with her. Now if you takea step back, and think of her as the teller at the bank and not the woman who has betrayed you....would you sign up the teller's kid and not inform her and not put it on the calendar? See, to a stranger, you would be more thoughtful and courteous than to just sign up their kid for something and not inform them. Thus it is right and reasonable to extend at least that same amount of courtesy to your spouse. 

What is the goal of Plan A again? 

Okay keeping the marathon in mind and not the quick sprint, what would be a mature, kind, response? She wasn't disrespectful. She made a request. You didn't follow through. So you tell me, is any response needed? Is your proposed response true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? If the answer is yes to all three, then respond in that way.


----------



## sokillme

You need to value yourself more then divorce or even your marriage. As long a you don't your wife will always have power over you.

The bottom line is I think for most people who think like you, the real reason they stay and cling so desperately is not because of the marriage or love, it's because they fear change. 

Which is why very often there is nothing noble about staying together at all. Often times it's just sad. 

Fear is a terrible thing to base one's life and marriage on, but after infidelity that is often all that is left.


----------



## ABHale

DrDetroit said:


> Bah, ****ed up...
> 
> Signed my youngest up for an after school activity and didn't confirm with wife or put it on our activity calendar.
> 
> Another love buster - I didn't follow through on a commitment I made.
> 
> So I get this text:
> when you. offically sign the boys up for activities can you pleas ewrite it on the calander or send a text. i did not know 10 year old had science club today since you didnt congirm or write that it was paid for. we are still parents together.
> 
> I want to reply that shes right, I left her in the dark about it, and will be sure to update that calendar.


It is ok to say I messed up and forgot to put it on the calendar. 

We all make mistakes. It isn’t a bad thing to own up to it. 

Just don’t apologize for her behavior is all.


----------



## ABHale

Another thing you might tell her is this. The little remarks at the end of your text is going to make it hard to co-parent. I know you think I am scum of the earth and deserve nothing better but for the sake of the boys keep the remarks to yourself.


----------



## BruceBanner

Chaparral said:


> There is only a twenty percent chance a couple will stay together if the wife gets caught cheating.


Source for this statistic?


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> Bah, ****ed up...
> 
> 
> 
> Signed my youngest up for an after school activity and didn't confirm with wife or put it on our activity calendar.
> 
> 
> 
> Another love buster - I didn't follow through on a commitment I made.
> 
> 
> 
> So I get this text:
> 
> when you. offically sign the boys up for activities can you pleas ewrite it on the calander or send a text. i did not know 10 year old had science club today since you didnt congirm or write that it was paid for. we are still parents together.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to reply that shes right, I left her in the dark about it, and will be sure to update that calendar.


Then do it.

Men of character are not afraid to admit a mistake...even to those who don't necessarily deserve it. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## farsidejunky

Marduk said:


> Your options:
> 
> 
> 
> (a) nothing
> 
> (b) "LOL"
> 
> (c) "Sure thing. Can you also update the calendar with the date when your boyfriend dumped you?"
> 
> (d) "I signed him up and paid for it. That's all you need to know. Take this as your notification that it has happened."
> 
> 
> 
> I'm mostly kidding about c. It's too passive aggressive. Mostly.


All of these are planting one's self squarely in the perp chair.

Find the center of the drama triangle, DD.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## dubsey

nothing wrong with... "it wasn't intentional or with nefarious intentions - it was just a mistake. my apologies."


----------



## Marduk

ABHale said:


> It is ok to say I messed up and forgot to put it on the calendar.
> 
> We all make mistakes. It isn’t a bad thing to own up to it.
> 
> Just don’t apologize for her behavior is all.


I don’t know about that. 

I mean someone that cheats on me, doesn’t stop when busted, doesn’t apologize for it or show remorse, and then goes into harpy mode on me for something minor is kinda **** outta luck with expecting any recognition for minor bumps from me. 

If someone has no integrity, I’m not going to bother crucifying myself in even small ways or allowing myself to be judged in any way. 

This is not about a calendar. This is about her asserting dominance and the both of them allowing her to sit on her pedestal. 

She’s looking down on him. It will get worse, because that way she will rationalize what she did further. This is ego protection on her behalf, not working out logistics. 

If he plays into that in any way, it’s giving her an ego boost. 

He should laugh at her.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> All of these are planting one's self squarely in the perp chair.
> 
> Find the center of the drama triangle, DD.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


He should get real comfortable sitting there.


----------



## Chaparral

BruceBanner said:


> Source for this statistic?


Google infidelity statistics.
The worst one is that only one in five cheaters get caught.


----------



## Chaparral

Tell you’re sorry you forgot to mention it t but you have a lot on your mind with the cheating and the divorce and all. Then ask her if she has a job and where she is going to live.

Are you going to be able
To afford the house by yourself?


----------



## Marduk

Chaparral said:


> Google infidelity statistics.
> The worst one is that only one in five cheaters get caught.


Translation: when you catch them, odds are low that it’s their first fling.


----------



## DrDetroit

I replied:

"That's frustrating. I left you in the dark. I'll do a better job communicating and working with the calendar so you're not surprised or left wondering where the boys are."

This is something we have talked about, ie using a calendar and since I'm starting to take care of more things involving the kids,we don't want to overlap or duplicate signups and payments.


----------



## DrDetroit

Easy evening at home last night. Came home in a good mood, present with the wife and kids. After putting youngest down, came down and sat with wife and oldest boy and a very easy, casual conversation. Asked wife about her work day, expressed positive vibes about some changes in her classroom. Unexpectedly, she asked me about my day at work and I replied that it was really good. Lots of eye contact. She later said good night to me, something she hadn't done for a few weeks.

Interesting text exchange this afternoon. We bought our home about 18 months ago. Our loan servicer called two months to talk about reducing interest rate. They called today and offered a half percent reduction and that would save about $120 month. It's a no brainier with no cost to us.

Now, my wife isn't on the mortgage. So I texted her about the offer and that I'd be accepting it tonight unless she saw a real problem with it or thought of something I missed.

I started my text to her by noting the awkwardness of bringing it up. Her reply to me:

"It is an awkward time, I'm not sure how to respond. i want to trust that you are doing this in good faith but it doesn't feel like you are. i know you want to stay in the house and and have full custody of the boys, at least that is what you have stated. With this change are you taking my name off everything? it feels like you are paving the road to put me out and take the boys away. The deal looks amazing and would be better financially for the family".

Embedded in the offer is an option to skip a payment in December. And she texts back...
"what do you intend to do with the skip payment in December? can we use it for mediation fees?"

Followed by...
"do the deal since it's a no brainer, is there something you need from me to finalize the transaction?"

I replied back:
"I have no intention with the skip payment. I ran this by you to get feedback. I don't need anything from you for complete the transaction."

To which she replied:
"thanks for asking me and running it by me even though it seems like you can do it without me sounds like you know what you are doing".

Hell yes I know what I am doing. Restructuring the mortgage on our house ain't a small thing so I wanted to ensure I at least have her a heads up.

But hell no the skip payment doesn't pay for mediation. She'll pay her part from her check and I'll pay my part.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Easy evening at home last night. Came home in a good mood, present with the wife and kids. After putting youngest down, came down and sat with wife and oldest boy and a very easy, casual conversation. Asked wife about her work day, expressed positive vibes about some changes in her classroom. Unexpectedly, she asked me about my day at work and I replied that it was really good. Lots of eye contact. She later said good night to me, something she hadn't done for a few weeks.


I suspect her getting dumped has something to do with this.



> Interesting text exchange this afternoon. We bought our home about 18 months ago. Our loan servicer called two months to talk about reducing interest rate. They called today and offered a half percent reduction and that would save about $120 month. It's a no brainier with no cost to us.
> 
> Now, my wife isn't on the mortgage. So I texted her about the offer and that I'd be accepting it tonight unless she saw a real problem with it or thought of something I missed.
> 
> I started my text to her by noting the awkwardness of bringing it up. Her reply to me:
> 
> "It is an awkward time, I'm not sure how to respond. i want to trust that you are doing this in good faith but it doesn't feel like you are. i know you want to stay in the house and and have full custody of the boys, at least that is what you have stated. With this change are you taking my name off everything? it feels like you are paving the road to put me out and take the boys away. The deal looks amazing and would be better financially for the family".


It’s starting to dawn on her that you’ll be just fine without her, and she might not be just fine without you. 



> Embedded in the offer is an option to skip a payment in December. And she texts back...
> "what do you intend to do with the skip payment in December? can we use it for mediation fees?"
> 
> Followed by...
> "do the deal since it's a no brainer, is there something you need from me to finalize the transaction?"
> 
> I replied back:
> "I have no intention with the skip payment. I ran this by you to get feedback. I don't need anything from you for complete the transaction."
> 
> To which she replied:
> "thanks for asking me and running it by me even though it seems like you can do it without me sounds like you know what you are doing".


All fine and good. Now is where you disconnect and stop engaging with her. 



> Hell yes I know what I am doing. Restructuring the mortgage on our house ain't a small thing so I wanted to ensure I at least have her a heads up.
> 
> But hell no the skip payment doesn't pay for mediation. She'll pay her part from her check and I'll pay my part.


Exactly.


----------



## BashfulB

Sorry DrDetroit, about chiming in so late to this thread. But the last post you made scares me. Please, please be very careful with the things you write to this woman. Her texts to you strike me as ominous. My gut tells me she is trying to set you up. Please remember that even text exchanges are admissible as evidence in some states. Be VERY careful with your words. I think you are giving her way too much information. I cannot for the life of me understand why you are so trusting towards her.


----------



## Marduk

BashfulB said:


> Sorry DrDetroit, about chiming in so late to this thread. But the last post you made scares me. Please, please be very careful with the things you write to this woman. Her texts to you strike me as ominous. My gut tells me she is trying to set you up. Please remember that even text exchanges are admissible as evidence in some states. Be VERY careful with your words. I think you are giving her way too much information. I cannot for the life of me understand why you are so trusting towards her.


Me, too.

She’s going to paint him as the devil sooner or later. They both might as well get comfortable with the idea and start to protect themselves now.


----------



## DrDetroit

BashfulB said:


> Sorry DrDetroit, about chiming in so late to this thread. But the last post you made scares me. Please, please be very careful with the things you write to this woman. Her texts to you strike me as ominous. My gut tells me she is trying to set you up. Please remember that even text exchanges are admissible as evidence in some states. Be VERY careful with your words. I think you are giving her way too much information. I cannot for the life of me understand why you are so trusting towards her.


Can you elaborate? I want to be clear what info I provided that you think was too much. Was it what I have communicated re plans to stay in the house, custody (which she misremembered, I said 50-50), the development with the mortgage loan, other? Thanks.


----------



## BashfulB

> "It is an awkward time, I'm not sure how to respond. i want to trust that you are doing this in good faith but it doesn't feel like you are. i know you want to stay in the house and and have full custody of the boys, at least that is what you have stated. With this change are you taking my name off everything? it feels like you are paving the road to put me out and take the boys away. The deal looks amazing and would be better financially for the family".


DrDetroit read this again and again. Look at the tone more than the message. This paragraph just drips with passive aggressiveness. She's baiting you into explaining something that you have no reason or duty to explain.


----------



## Marduk

BashfulB said:


> DrDetroit read this again and again. Look at the tone more than the message. This paragraph just drips with passive aggressiveness. She's baiting you into explaining something that you have no reason or duty to explain.


It’s about money.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

3Xnocharm said:


> I don’t think she cares if he’s bluffing or anything else.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right.
She told her family about the OM. 
She told them they were seperated.

She's done even if she gets manipulated back in.


----------



## DrDetroit

Marduk said:


> It’s about money.


As posted before she is extremely nervous about supporting herself, so of course it's about money. But noting that it is about money doesn't really say much relative to Bashful's point.

The deeper issue is, relative to Bashful's post, is what was the money issue covering for, if anything? Is she wanting info on my plans? Does she want to know what I think I'm willing to pay in cs and alimony? 

I'm just a dumb betrayed spouse trying to catch up, but I'm reading that part of her text in the context of her previous comments and whining about me keeping the house and getting the kids or how I get to keep the family and friends while she loses both or how I'd be happy if she were to end up divorced and unemployed, etc.

Meaning I am taking her text at face value... She thinks I am rubning her face in the fact that I'm on the mortgage and can support myself, that she feels that I am trying to set up in some way, and that she's anxious about being put out and unable to support herself.

I'm content to let her wallow in that and consider that for a while.

This weekend I open my own bank account and change my direct deposit so that I will control exactly how much money goes toward household bills meaning that I will transfer the money to our joint account when a bill needs to be paid.

I'm trying to figure out a way to get her served the D papers. I can't really afford a big retainer for an attorney. My thinking is that I run Plan A (don't give me any ****, you know who you are) and if no success then Plan B with that letter and D papers. Not sure I can accomplish that in the next few weeks. But also not sure if I should add d papers to my plan heretofore expressed. My thought is that if Plan A doesn't get us sending a no contact forever letter, to a remorseful wife and an open door to reconcile, then go Plan B, go dark, and show I'm serious by serving her up.


----------



## DrDetroit

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Right.
> She told her family about the OM.
> She told them they were seperated.
> 
> She's done even if she gets manipulated back in.


I've been wondering about that. She told at least her oldest sister and Mom about the OM after they explicitly asked if there was someone else. Per the oldest sister, my wife said that they had developed romantic feelings for each other.

I know that shes told at least one girlfriend about the OM to the extent (that I saw in a text exchange) that the OM knows that my wife wouldn't wait forever although at that time she wasn't "a free agent". Her girl friend had prompted that by noting that that the OM had to get his act together and figure out what he wanted, so clearly this friend knew what was happening.

But, wgara, this weekend I expose to our parents, siblings, and close friends as well as the OMs family and friends. Those who were cheering her on will continue to do so. And those who might lend support will or will not. But, they all need to know the truth and extent of the affair.


----------



## Absurdist

DrDetroit said:


> Interesting text exchange this afternoon. We bought our home about 18 months ago. Our loan servicer called two months to talk about reducing interest rate. They called today and offered a half percent reduction and that would save about $120 month. It's a no brainier with no cost to us.
> 
> Now, my wife isn't on the mortgage. So I texted her about the offer and that I'd be accepting it tonight unless she saw a real problem with it or thought of something I missed.



As a lawyer, nothing you wrote here makes sense. If you acquired property while married you would own it either in joint tenancy or a tenancy by the entirety. (Assumes you are in the US).

Accordingly, your wife would have to be "on the mortgage" (I am also making the assumption that you know what you are talking about). If she was not on the mortgage it would be defective. No lender worth its salt would loan to a married couple and not have both the husband and wife sign both the promissory note that evidences the debt and the mortgage which secures that debt.

So, OP... what does your deed say? Who is the grantee in the deed? Even if you owned the house as an individual, the lender would still require your wife to sign the mortgage. She would have marital rights in the property that would have to be waived. The only way that can be done is if she signed the mortgage.

I have also never heard of a lender calling someone to reduce the rate on a loan without payment of loan or origination fees or points. There is no benefit to the lender to reduce your rate without the lender getting something out of the transaction.


----------



## DrDetroit

Absurdist said:


> As a lawyer, nothing you wrote here makes sense. If you acquired property while married you would own it either in joint tenancy or a tenancy by the entirety. (Assumes you are in the US).
> 
> Accordingly, your wife would have to be "on the mortgage" (I am also making the assumption that you know what you are talking about). If she was not on the mortgage it would be defective. No lender worth its salt would loan to a married couple and not have both the husband and wife sign both the promissory note that evidences the debt and the mortgage which secures that debt.
> 
> So, OP... what does your deed say? Who is the grantee in the deed? Even if you owned the house as an individual, the lender would still require your wife to sign the mortgage. She would have marital rights in the property that would have to be waived. The only way that can be done is if she signed the mortgage.
> 
> I have also never heard of a lender calling someone to reduce the rate on a loan without payment of loan or origination fees or points. There is no benefit to the lender to reduce your rate without the lender getting something out of the transaction.


I may not know wtf I am talking about. Without me asking, the lender rep I spoke with indicated that it was just me on the mortgage. Maybe I am inaccurately paraphrasing what the rep said. I'll confirm tonight as I have a scheduled call with that same person.

We are on a 30-year fixed at 3.99. We have 28.5 years left. Lender rep indicated that they saw rates going down and wanted us to consider moving to a 27 year loan at 3.5 and the 9k in closing costs would be rolled into a new payment that saves us $120 per month and our PMI goes away. 

You're right, based only on what I posted, you wouldn't know the details that I didn't post but texted to her.


----------



## honcho

DrDetroit said:


> I may not know wtf I am talking about. Without me asking, the lender rep I spoke with indicated that it was just me on the mortgage. Maybe I am inaccurately paraphrasing what the rep said. I'll confirm tonight as I have a scheduled call with that same person.
> 
> We are on a 30-year fixed at 3.99. We have 28.5 years left. Lender rep indicated that they saw rates going down and wanted us to consider moving to a 27 year loan at 3.5 and the 9k in closing costs would be rolled into a new payment that saves us $120 per month and our PMI goes away.
> 
> You're right, based only on what I posted, you wouldn't know the details that I didn't post but texted to her.


So in essence your adding 9k today onto your mortgage for a lower payment. Long term you'll save money but short term you've added liability. This is a potential problem because her long term is short term, she's planning on being divorced within the next year and your adding debt which means less for her in equity split.


----------



## DrDetroit

honcho said:


> So in essence your adding 9k today onto your mortgage for a lower payment. Long term you'll save money but short term you've added liability. This is a potential problem because her long term is short term, she's planning on being divorced within the next year and your adding debt which means less for her in equity split.


Good points. I'll confirm the total amount of the loan tonight when I talk to the rep. On the other hand, I don't care about her equity.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> As posted before she is extremely nervous about supporting herself, so of course it's about money. But noting that it is about money doesn't really say much relative to Bashful's point.
> 
> The deeper issue is, relative to Bashful's post, is what was the money issue covering for, if anything? Is she wanting info on my plans? Does she want to know what I think I'm willing to pay in cs and alimony?
> 
> I'm just a dumb betrayed spouse trying to catch up, but I'm reading that part of her text in the context of her previous comments and whining about me keeping the house and getting the kids or how I get to keep the family and friends while she loses both or how I'd be happy if she were to end up divorced and unemployed, etc.
> 
> Meaning I am taking her text at face value... She thinks I am rubning her face in the fact that I'm on the mortgage and can support myself, that she feels that I am trying to set up in some way, and that she's anxious about being put out and unable to support herself.
> 
> I'm content to let her wallow in that and consider that for a while.
> 
> This weekend I open my own bank account and change my direct deposit so that I will control exactly how much money goes toward household bills meaning that I will transfer the money to our joint account when a bill needs to be paid.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out a way to get her served the D papers. I can't really afford a big retainer for an attorney. My thinking is that I run Plan A (don't give me any ****, you know who you are) and if no success then Plan B with that letter and D papers. Not sure I can accomplish that in the next few weeks. But also not sure if I should add d papers to my plan heretofore expressed. My thought is that if Plan A doesn't get us sending a no contact forever letter, to a remorseful wife and an open door to reconcile, then go Plan B, go dark, and show I'm serious by serving her up.


Think differently. 

Think about power. 

When you have an affair, you have all the power. You have two guys chasing you. Therefore, you’re twice as powerful and worth twice as much. Plus you get to pick and choose - more power. 

You still want to reconcile and she knows it - so she still has all the power. 

She just got dumped, though. So uh oh. Less power. I suspect that’s a bit of why she asserted dominance over you about the calendar and why she made eyes at you last night. 

Plus, she’s cluing into the fact that easy street is about to end for her. That’s what the nicey-nice was about that - keep coughing up your financial plans and she’ll keep being nice to you. 

You’re getting played so hard. 

Your shields need to come up and you need to be comfortable being the bad guy.


----------



## DrDetroit

honcho said:


> So in essence your adding 9k today onto your mortgage for a lower payment. Long term you'll save money but short term you've added liability. This is a potential problem because her long term is short term, she's planning on being divorced within the next year and your adding debt which means less for her in equity split.


Yeah, basically, with the monthly savings from the reduced rate, it'd take 6 years and change to cover the closing costs. While I want to keep the home and think that's doable provided I don't get killed in cs and alimony, if I don't end up keeping the house, then I've added 9k liability to myself.


----------



## DrDetroit

F^&*, another fail this evening. Tried talking to my wife about the refi option just to make sure I wasnt missing something. She observed the problem with $9k closing costs and $125/month savings equaling out to 6 years to break even. She had a look and I asked her about it and she remarked, well, it's your house. I got sucked into a relationship conversation. Baited, really.

She said something along the lines of me not choosing to show in the marriage and, bang, marriage talk. Didn't go well, either, because I get her pity party how I make all the money and the house is mine and she's just trying to get out of this marriage.

In these moments, it's like why the hell bother with any plan except divorce.

But I'm going to stick with it because I'm dumb. Well, no, because I want something and I'll regret not having attempted something but also protecting myself.

I wish I wasn't so dumb in this space.

Edit - Oh, and I wasn't just defending myself, I had to doubt what world she was living in as I reacted to her f#$king rewrite of our marital history.


----------



## Marc878

Bud, she wants out of the marriage she has to take what comes with that. Let her pull up her big girl panties, suck it up and deal with it.


----------



## DrDetroit

Cant seem to help myself here. So hard to let her verbal jabs and nonsense go.

And I went even further to acknowledge that she was, again, rewriting our marriage history.


----------



## farsidejunky

Absurdist said:


> As a lawyer, nothing you wrote here makes sense. If you acquired property while married you would own it either in joint tenancy or a tenancy by the entirety. (Assumes you are in the US).
> 
> 
> 
> Accordingly, your wife would have to be "on the mortgage" (I am also making the assumption that you know what you are talking about). If she was not on the mortgage it would be defective. No lender worth its salt would loan to a married couple and not have both the husband and wife sign both the promissory note that evidences the debt and the mortgage which secures that debt.
> 
> 
> 
> So, OP... what does your deed say? Who is the grantee in the deed? Even if you owned the house as an individual, the lender would still require your wife to sign the mortgage. She would have marital rights in the property that would have to be waived. The only way that can be done is if she signed the mortgage.
> 
> 
> 
> I have also never heard of a lender calling someone to reduce the rate on a loan without payment of loan or origination fees or points. There is no benefit to the lender to reduce your rate without the lender getting something out of the transaction.


I am the sole borrower on our mortgage. USAA funded it, which is a reputable company.

Both my wife and I are on the deed.

I think it varies from state to state. 



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Openminded

Some people stay in the marriage when financial reality hits. She may decide she can't afford a divorce (especially now that she's been dumped) and decide her better choice is to reconcile. Have you thought about what that would look like?


----------



## DrDetroit

Openminded said:


> Some people stay in the marriage when financial reality hits. She may decide she can't afford a divorce (especially now that she's been dumped) and decide her better choice is to reconcile. Have you thought about what that would look like?


Not yet...


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> I am the sole borrower on our mortgage. USAA funded it, which is a reputable company.
> 
> Both my wife and I are on the deed.
> 
> I think it varies from state to state.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


FSJ - you may be the sole borrower on the note but I guarantee that your wife signed the mortgage. I know that you are in the Volunteer State. In TN your wife would have to sign the mortgage (Deed of Trust?) to waive any marital claim to the property.

And by the way DD the deal you are being offered by your lender is a $hit deal. They are dumping all their fees into the principal of your loan. You may get a lower payment but the principal of your loan increases. Thus your equity erodes. If your wife is expecting a 50/50 split, she will be pissed that you are doing this. All the more reason to run everything you are doing past a competent attorney instead of wasting your time posting on two forums.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Absurdist said:


> FSJ - you may be the sole borrower on the note but I guarantee that your wife signed the mortgage. I know that you are in the Volunteer State. In TN your wife would have to sign the mortgage (Deed of Trust?) to waive any marital claim to the property.
> 
> And by the way DD the deal you are being offered by your lender is a $hit deal. They are dumping all their fees into the principal of your loan. You may get a lower payment but the principal of your loan increases. Thus your equity erodes. If your wife is expecting a 50/50 split, she will be pissed that you are doing this. All the more reason to run everything you are doing past a competent attorney instead of wasting your time posting on two forums.


Thank you. He's been told to run things by a lawyer, maybe he will listen to an actual one giving him advice.


----------



## niceguy47460

DrDetroit it kinda sounds like to me that now she was dumped she is wondering if she still wants the divorce . But she doesn't want to admit she was wronged.


----------



## DrDetroit

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Thank you. He's been told to run things by a lawyer, maybe he will listen to an actual one giving him advice.


I am running things through my lawyer.

And what is this, "He's been told..."?


----------



## Wolfman1968

DrDetroit said:


> Is there a good exposure letter template around?
> 
> I think I'm going to write a letter to her immediate family letting them know we're headed down the divorce line, acknowledge and take responsibility for my behaviors and their impact on the marriage and then drop the exposure.



NO!

Don't put any admission of faults on paper. She'll distort it and use it against you.

Don't even write letters. Let the word out verbally.

No paper trails.


----------



## Wolfman1968

DrDetroit said:


> Cant seem to help myself here. So hard to let her verbal jabs and nonsense go.
> 
> *And I went even further to acknowledge that she was, again, rewriting our marriage history*.



She will continue to do this. It will get worse.

Look, you've admitted you have had emotional problems. (Don't admit it further, though, because it will be blown out of proportion.)

You wife is using that as a cover to excuse her behavior/affair.
Don't give her more ammunition by conceding anything.

Look, Mrs. Wolfman had some emotional/psychiatric issues. She treated me very poorly through that. I'm not going into any details about it.
However, I had a choice. Either see her through her psychiatric issues, or leave. Treating her horribly, having affairs, using her financially would NOT have been acceptable options. Period.

Your wife is acting like she was "forced" to do what she did because of your depression/anger/withdrawing. She uses it as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card for anything she has done, or WILL DO in the future.
That's a bunch of BS. 

I suspect she didn't support you enough when you were down. Nagging you to "get help" is not the same as support. Marriage is not always 50-50. Sometimes it's 25-75, 10-90, or even 0-100 when one of the partners is having a bad time and can't hold up their end. If she doesn't want to do pick up the burden, fine, then leave. But she doesn't get a pass to have affairs, transfer her affections and emotional ties to someone else, or any other horrible behavior.

You had some bad times, but you're coming back, and you didn't want a divorce during that time, and you were willing to keep the marriage going. She is now the one being selfish, unsupportive, and involved with another person, but she is NOT willing to weather this through to save the marriage. So who is REALLY the worse person here?

For a marriage to survive, BOTH parties have to be committed to keeping it going. She is checked out, so it is impossible for the marriage to survive.

However, her sense of ENTITLEMENT due to resentment of your psychiatric problems continues. So, she is going to play that up to no end, because it will justify (in her mind) everything she does or wants from this point on. 

a) She is in a bad financial situation from divorce? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so YOU NEED TO PAY. (excessive alimony, unequal split of assets, etc.) 
b) She is feeling isolated post-divorce? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so SHE GETS TO MOVE TO A NEW STATE AND TAKE THE KIDS WITH HER.
c) 50-50 parenting time not a good option for her? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so YOU LOSE YOUR CONTACT TIME WITH THE KIDS.
d) And so forth, for any issue that comes up.

And she is going to continue to revise the marital history, because that gives her the justification to get whatever she wants. Because it her mind, it will become "right" and "fair" and "deserved" in light of the new narrative of the marriage.


----------



## Wolfman1968

DrDetroit said:


> Wife had a planned mountain biking class this morning. Last week was my first time back to church in a very long time. This week, I asked my boys to go with me. As she was getting ready to leave, she was telling me about her plan for the day and simply replied ok. She asked about getting shopping done and I told her I'd go after the boys and I got home. She asked from where and I said church.
> 
> Wow... Quite an effect on her. We've gone to church before back in MI but would fall out of the habit, restart, off, etc. After moving here to OR we tried a few churches when our kids were young but didn't really go anywhere. She tried going again this past spring and would ask if we were interested in going and didn't go and she'd go by herself.
> 
> I couldn't tell if she was angry, frustrated that they chose to go with me, or what, but she was visibly emotionally reacting to me taking the kids to church.*
> 
> She told the boys that she was happy they were going. But she also told them that it looks like I am making good choices and that it appears I make good choices when we're not married...to the boys. That kinda pissed me off, though I rationally get where she's coming from.
> 
> She also told the boys that going to church was something that she'd been trying to do as a family but no one else wanted to participate.
> 
> Over the past 2 weeks she hasn't been saying bye to me when she leaves. This morning, though, she did but laced it with a speech about she's excited I'm taking the boys but she's been trying 12 years to get us to go as a family. *
> 
> Weird, but I get it, sort of.
> 
> The difference between her approach to this kind of stuff is she asks the boys to go and when they say no she gets upset and pretends to brush it off. Otoh, I don't ask so much as tell the boys I am going and explain why I'd like them to come with me. Works like a charm.



Forget the last paragraph. Focus on the bolded area above. 

Her passive-aggressive behavior and statements are NOT good co-parenting, because it undermines the relationship with the criticized parent. 
Remember this for when you take your required parenting classes, and bring it up to the instructor/counselor/whatever. 

Otherwise, it will continue. It may anyway, but if the counselor says that it is inappropriate, you can always say something like, "remember the parenting class" or something like that when she tries it in the future.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Keep doing what you’re doing and you are going to find out you should have taken advice from some of us who have been in your shoes.
I hope we all are wrong for your sake sir.


----------



## Tilted 1

Wolfman1968 said:


> She will continue to do this. It will get worse.
> 
> Look, you've admitted you have had emotional problems. (Don't admit it further, though, because it will be blown out of proportion.)
> 
> You wife is using that as a cover to excuse her behavior/affair.
> Don't give her more ammunition by conceding anything.
> 
> Look, Mrs. Wolfman had some emotional/psychiatric issues. She treated me very poorly through that. I'm not going into any details about it.
> However, I had a choice. Either see her through her psychiatric issues, or leave. Treating her horribly, having affairs, using her financially would NOT have been acceptable options. Period.
> 
> Your wife is acting like she was "forced" to do what she did because of your depression/anger/withdrawing. She uses it as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card for anything she has done, or WILL DO in the future.
> That's a bunch of BS.
> 
> I suspect she didn't support you enough when you were down. Nagging you to "get help" is not the same as support. Marriage is not always 50-50. Sometimes it's 25-75, 10-90, or even 0-100 when one of the partners is having a bad time and can't hold up their end. If she doesn't want to do pick up the burden, fine, then leave. But she doesn't get a pass to have affairs, transfer her affections and emotional ties to someone else, or any other horrible behavior.
> 
> You had some bad times, but you're coming back, and you didn't want a divorce during that time, and you were willing to keep the marriage going. She is now the one being selfish, unsupportive, and involved with another person, but she is NOT willing to weather this through to save the marriage. So who is REALLY the worse person here?
> 
> For a marriage to survive, BOTH parties have to be committed to keeping it going. She is checked out, so it is impossible for the marriage to survive.
> 
> However, her sense of ENTITLEMENT due to resentment of your psychiatric problems continues. So, she is going to play that up to no end, because it will justify (in her mind) everything she does or wants from this point on.
> 
> a) She is in a bad financial situation from divorce? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so YOU NEED TO PAY. (excessive alimony, unequal split of assets, etc.)
> b) She is feeling isolated post-divorce? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so SHE GETS TO MOVE TO A NEW STATE AND TAKE THE KIDS WITH HER.
> c) 50-50 parenting time not a good option for her? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so YOU LOSE YOUR CONTACT TIME WITH THE KIDS.
> d) And so forth, for any issue that comes up.
> 
> And she is going to continue to revise the marital history, because that gives her the justification to get whatever she wants. Because it her mind, it will become "right" and "fair" and "deserved" in light of the new narrative of the marriage.


EXACTLY! don't use your guilt, it you against her. Not your kids just her.


----------



## ButtPunch

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Keep doing what you’re doing and you are going to find out you should have taken advice from some of us who have been in your shoes.
> I hope we all are wrong for your sake sir.


DD has decided to use plan A despite our advice not too.

Plan A can work and seems to be starting too.

The money is a big concern and could draw her back to the relationship
especially now that she has been dumped.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

ButtPunch said:


> DD has decided to use plan A despite our advice not too.
> 
> Plan A can work and seems to be starting too.
> 
> The money is a big concern and could draw her back to the relationship
> especially now that she has been dumped.


ButtPunch, I could not live with a woman who only wanted to be with me for financial reasons. That is not a marriage, but a business partnership. How utterly f’n sad.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

ButtPunch said:


> DD has decided to use plan A despite our advice not too.
> 
> Plan A can work and* seems to be starting too.* [QUOTE/]
> 
> I am not seeing this. I am seeing she is still done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ButtPunch said:
> 
> 
> 
> The money is a big concern and could draw her back to the relationship
> especially now that she has been dumped.
> 
> 
> 
> If she stays for financial reasons, then there is still not a real marriage. Is this really the kind of arrangement anyone would want?? She is already a serial cheat, so I cant figure out why the hell he wants to hang on to her in the first place.
Click to expand...


----------



## Hoosier

Looks to me that she is considering staying in the marriage, because of the money. How romantic! Great thing to base a marriage on.. 

"I would of divorced him, had a boy friend all picked out and everything. By that **** boyfriend bailed and I couldnt afford to. Oh well, give me a while I'll find another one, this time with money!"


----------



## hubbyintrubby

Hoosier said:


> Looks to me that she is considering staying in the marriage, because of the money. How romantic! Great thing to base a marriage on..
> 
> "I would of divorced him, had a boy friend all picked out and everything. By that **** boyfriend bailed and I couldnt afford to. Oh well, give me a while I'll find another one, this time with money!"


The OP won't and is refusing to look at it this way. He is pedastalizing both his marriage and his WS and as long as that continues, he will stay stuck where he is both romanticizing the marriage and WS, and regretting the fact that he can't just pull the plug.


----------



## jlg07

DrDetroit said:


> Ok, so, when a husband reacts as I have, divorce is certain.
> 
> What alternative approaches have you observed that have led to a repaired marriage?


I hate to say this, but for R to work, the cheating spouse has to be remorseful (VERY) and want to work at it.
THEY dedicate themselves to getting the marriage better, helping the betrayed spouse in ANY WAY to help heal them from the cheating.

Your WW doesn't show ANY of that -- she clearly does NOT want to reconcile, does NOT want to continue the marriage. As much as YOU want to do this, you cannot have a one-sided marriage or reconciliation - it just doesn't work.
Work on YOU -- health, sleep, finances, parenting, and DO NOT worry about her. You need to detach (she already has). She is stringing you along because she doesn't want her lifestyle that YOU provide to change.
Realize that, internalize that, and think about what YOU want in your future? A true partner who cares about YOU or someone who is using you.

VERY sorry that you are going through all of this -- it sucks. Marriages falling apart are bad enough, but cheating just ramps the suckage up 1000%.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> F^&*, another fail this evening. Tried talking to my wife about the refi option just to make sure I wasnt missing something. She observed the problem with $9k closing costs and $125/month savings equaling out to 6 years to break even. She had a look and I asked her about it and she remarked, well, it's your house. I got sucked into a relationship conversation. Baited, really.
> 
> She said something along the lines of me not choosing to show in the marriage and, bang, marriage talk. Didn't go well, either, because I get her pity party how I make all the money and the house is mine and she's just trying to get out of this marriage.
> 
> In these moments, it's like why the hell bother with any plan except divorce.
> 
> But I'm going to stick with it because I'm dumb. Well, no, because I want something and I'll regret not having attempted something but also protecting myself.
> 
> I wish I wasn't so dumb in this space.
> 
> Edit - Oh, and I wasn't just defending myself, I had to doubt what world she was living in as I reacted to her f#$king rewrite of our marital history.


Why the **** are you talking with her?

It’s like you want her to have all the power and take advantage of you. 

Why is that?


----------



## Marduk

ButtPunch said:


> DD has decided to use plan A despite our advice not too.
> 
> Plan A can work and seems to be starting too.
> 
> The money is a big concern and could draw her back to the relationship
> especially now that she has been dumped.


Nope.

She’ll want a free ride from him until she finds some other schmuck to take her in and give her a free ride.

She doesn’t want the marriage. She wants her lifestyle not to change. She’s like a 20 year old that wants mom and dad to pay the bills and let them live at home for free... but not have any rules.

This “poor me” will go on while she continues to date other guys and live in his house while he pays the bills for as long as he lets it, or until she moves in with some other dude.

It’s what this power struggle is really about.


----------



## ButtPunch

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> ButtPunch, I could not live with a woman who only wanted to be with me for financial reasons. That is not a marriage, but a business partnership. How utterly f’n sad.


I agree whole heartedly.

However, I suffered thru Dr. Harley's book and their is an example similar to this case 
where BS pulls wife back in with Plan A because she realizes her financial support is gone.

OP is doing Plan A and I will advise him as such whether I like it or not.

Doing something is better than jumping all over the place


----------



## DrDetroit

ButtPunch said:


> I agree whole heartedly.
> 
> However, I suffered thru Dr. Harley's book and their is an example similar to this case
> where BS pulls wife back in with Plan A because she realizes her financial support is gone.
> 
> OP is doing Plan A and I will advise him as such whether I like it or not.
> 
> Doing something is better than jumping all over the place


Appreciate that. I am amazed at the hard feelings being expressed by others in this thread. I am wading through through the biases, the projections, etc. 

I have chosen a plan and will stick with it. I am willing to choose to engage in this plan. Those who think the plan is a waste of time, will prolong my suffering, or is reflective of a weak, insecure man, well, I appreciate your concern for my well-being and your encouragement to abandon what is a ****ty marriage.

I would appreciate support, encouragement, and advice in pursuing the plan that I have paid out.

To those who think there's a crack and that my wife may be opening to reconciling because she sees a financial need to, you're dead wrong. There is no such crack. She's as resolved to a mediated divorce as when I first posted here. I am under no illusion that she has changed one iota.

While she hasn't acknowledged it to me (and why would she), the OM going no contact with her (stop pretending you know how she is reacting to that - feeling dumped or otherwise), I have no idea how she's handling it. I haven't seen her writing about it and have found no texts to her friends or family about it.

There's way too much conjecture here about what my wife might be thinking or feeling. We do know that she is checked out, that she had at least an emotional affair, that she doesn't believe the changes I am making can be lasting, that she is very happy that I am changing because the boys will have a better father and we know that while married to me she ended up feeling lonely, uncared for, and unsafe in the marriage. 

You guys also know what she has texted me and I have shared some of what she has said to me in a variety of contexts over the last few weeks.

I'm doing Plan A because I want to show her that I am changing and the changes can be lasting, but I am doing Plan A with no expectation that she will reciprocate or change her mind. I hope that she will and hope that it will cause her to feel remorse and to be open to a real R. If not, then not, but I will have tried and that's the point...for me.

I will not be perfect in this for I am an imperfect person. So I look forward to your advice, encouragement, and support if you're willing to share it. I also look forward to cold, hard reality checks that are not based on supposition or projection.

For example, Marduk, youve concluded that there is a power struggle. Ok, if so, then how do I combat that within the plan I am running?

Jlg07, of course I don't want someone who is merely using me. I feel and have felt for a few weeks now that I am being used and allowing myself to be used. I cannot kick her out. I cannot make her leave. So, how do I protect myself? I am seeing an attorney, I am looking to prepare to file for D (though that clearly undercuts Plan A) and will file for D if my Plan A doesn't get her and I to her giving the OM a no contact letter; her exhibiting remorse; and her displaying a willingness to R. Tall order,I know.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Dr. while i understand your plan i would have you think about one thing, i agree you should change however you need to , to be a better you but you should make it clear to her you are doing this for you and that if may or may not include her in your life, that you are doing to in pursuit of your own happiness and that may be with someone else...in this way you are not pining for her, you are pining for the better you...if she is on board fine but it will not be under the old rules...the more you distant yourself from her the more she will be focused on what you are doing and less on the OM


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> For example, Marduk, youve concluded that there is a power struggle. Ok, if so, then how do I combat that within the plan I am running?


Think about why she respects the other guy but she doesn’t respect you. Think about why he had the ability to walk away from her and you don’t.

She respects strength, I suspect. This is not rare. Everyone deserves respect, but you only have to respect those with strength. 

People also respect confidence. People also respect those that look out for themselves. Take care of business. 

Project these things. Project them by ignoring her: ignoring someone itself is an act of dominance. You no longer laying out your personal financial plans will also be an assertion of strength, because you’re looking out for yourself and your kids. That’s admirable.

When she engages you emotionally and you don’t react, that will project strength. When you move forward with the divorce that will project confidence - in yourself that you will be fine.

You’ve been given the tools. You know what’s going on. You keep engaging her, though. Why? What are you getting out of it? Hope?


----------



## jlg07

DrDetroit said:


> ...
> 
> Jlg07, of course I don't want someone who is merely using me. I feel and have felt for a few weeks now that I am being used and allowing myself to be used. I cannot kick her out. I cannot make her leave. So, how do I protect myself? I am seeing an attorney, I am looking to prepare to file for D (though that clearly undercuts Plan A) and will file for D if my Plan A doesn't get her and I to her giving the OM a no contact letter; her exhibiting remorse; and her displaying a willingness to R. Tall order,I know.


How do you protect yourself? Doesn't mean you have to kick her out/make her leave -- probably no legal way to do that (consult your lawyer -- and I think you need a shark here so that they are on focus and detail oriented, not for punitive reasons).

You start working on YOU -- get in shape, eat right, get enough sleep, start to look into hobbies/interests you may have put off, and focus on your kids. DO NOT put her in ANY way above those priorities. You are way down on her list --- make sure she is down/off of your priority list. This will help you detach, and help your emotions over time.

Preparing/planning for D is also a very good way to protect yourself (make sure this include finances/child custody/etc.). 
The fact that you have finally figured out what plan of attack you want (even if other here don't like it) is a very good way to protect yourself -- YOU own your life, do NOT let HER ramblings/attempts influence your life. Keep her relegated (after Plan A, if it doesn't work) to discussions about child care, finances, divorce, etc.. NOTHING else.

I HOPE that Plan A works for you -- BUT please try to think through that MAYBE what you will be getting is a false R (she may try to act nice and get back, but is she really acting and doing it so that she doesn't have to go out and get a job, etc. and have her lifestyle change?) -- the reason I state this is so YOU don't get hurt. Think about this -- she does the R, and you find out in a year, two years, etc. that it was all false. How would you feel? I think you would be worse off then -- you lost an additional year(s) of your life, and for no GOOD reasons. 

Look up other R stories here and see what the WS has done to try to heal the BS -- THOSE are the things you should be seeing, not just her "being nice" and looking you in the eyes and saying goodnight. You do those things with perfect strangers. Does SHE volunteer to go to IC to find out why she had the affair (and NOT because she's blaming you)? Did SHE decide to do the NC herself, or only because you want her to? Does she seem to be REALLY into solving the problems this has caused for you/kids? There are lots of other things (and those who have reconciled can guide you here what to look for).

That's all I'm trying to say here -- not trying to shoot down any particular plan you have, just make sure whatever you do is good for YOU and your kids. The emotions you are having (esp. since she keeps "pulling you in") are really detrimental in helping you figure out what to do.


----------



## DrDetroit

Lostinthought61 said:


> Dr. while i understand your plan i would have you think about one thing, i agree you should change however you need to , to be a better you but you should make it clear to her you are doing this for you and that if may or may not include her in your life, that you are doing to in pursuit of your own happiness and that may be with someone else...in this way you are not pining for her, you are pining for the better you...if she is on board fine but it will not be under the old rules...the more you distant yourself from her the more she will be focused on what you are doing and less on the OM


Already have and she already threw it back at me as selfish. I was clear that I am not changing for her because I'd be setting myself up for failure if we don't end up reconciled.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> I am looking to prepare to file for D (though that clearly undercuts Plan A) and will file for D if my Plan A doesn't get her and I to her giving the OM a no contact letter; her exhibiting remorse; and her displaying a willingness to R. Tall order,I know.


You said you were going to run Plan A for 3 weeks. That's a lot to ask for in such a short period of time. Have you had the 'no contact letter to OM' and reconciliation discussion with your wife? The Plan A clock doesn't start ticking until you've had that conversation.


----------



## Tilted 1

DrDetroit said:


> I would appreciate support, encouragement, and advice in pursuing the plan that I have paid out.
> ,..................
> 
> I will not be perfect in this for I am an imperfect person. So I look forward to your advice, encouragement, and support if you're willing to share it. """"" I also look forward to cold, hard reality checks that are not based on supposition or projection."""" ............
> .


Doc, sadly this is just why your still so conflicted.

Added below:
Projection, is what your believing in, nothing more.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

DrDetroit said:


> Already have and she already threw it back at me as selfish. I was clear that I am not changing for her because I'd be setting myself up for failure if we don't end up reconciled.


Does it matter if she thinks it's selfish if you are working on you for you? You put an awful lot of weight into what she says, thinks, etc. Yes, that is a very husbandly thing to do and I applaud you for that. But maybe don't put a lot of stock into a spouse who has cheated on you says YOU are being selfish. That seems very backwards for it to be even a blip on your radar right now.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Already have and she already threw it back at me as selfish. I was clear that I am not changing for her because I'd be setting myself up for failure if we don't end up reconciled.


Why do you care that she thinks you’re selfish?

This is the problem. This is emotional terrorism 101. Your success and failure is determined by how she feels about you, which means she gets to set the goalposts wherever it benefits her most.


----------



## BashfulB

Dr. Detroit my post to you was intended just to make you aware that you need to be very careful what you text to her or tell her in writing. Once it is in writing, she can use it against you in court. It would be wise for you to be very businesslike and only respond to her in short, direct, unemotional words. That is all I was saying. I wasn't trying to convey any deep meaning.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> You said you were going to run Plan A for 3 weeks. That's a lot to ask for in such a short period of time. Have you had the 'no contact letter to OM' and reconciliation discussion with your wife? The Plan A clock doesn't start ticking until you've had that conversation.


No on the contact letter.

Yes, I have expressed the desire/want to reconcile. Though her response is I'm done, no more tries left, too little-too late.

I didn't realize that there was such a conversation point at Plan A.


----------



## DrDetroit

Lostinthought61 said:


> Dr. while i understand your plan i would have you think about one thing, i agree you should change however you need to , to be a better you but you should make it clear to her you are doing this for you and that if may or may not include her in your life, that you are doing to in pursuit of your own happiness and that may be with someone else...in this way you are not pining for her, you are pining for the better you...if she is on board fine but it will not be under the old rules...*The more you distant yourself from her the more she will be focused on what you are doing and less on the OM*


That's confusing. The more I distance myself, the more she'll focus on me?

I don't see that here.

When I was 180ing for two weeks and going out and doing stuff on my without telling her what I was doing or where or with who, I saw in her writing that she was glad I was out, noted I was sharing details, but also noted that she didn't care. Last week she then cited that and my detaching as a sign that I didn't care about her or the marriage.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> No on the contact letter.
> 
> Yes, I have expressed the desire/want to reconcile. Though her response is I'm done, no more tries left, too little-too late.
> 
> I didn't realize that there was such a conversation point at Plan A.


If part of your Plan A involves a no contact letter to the OM, then yes the conversation needs to be had. Her response could be the same 'too little too late, etc.', but without having this conversation yet, your cards are not all on the table.


----------



## DrDetroit

BashfulB said:


> Dr. Detroit my post to you was intended just to make you aware that you need to be very careful what you text to her or tell her in writing. Once it is in writing, she can use it against you in court. It would be wise for you to be very businesslike and only respond to her in short, direct, unemotional words. That is all I was saying. I wasn't trying to convey any deep meaning.


Got it and I understand. Thanks for clarifying and I appreciate the advice.


----------



## Tex X

Something your wife said resonated with me. You were talking to her about the house refi, and she asked if the skipped payment for December could be used to pay for mediation. She's got her eye on the ball, and it's divorce. After my ex told me she wanted a divorce, I said let's give it a few weeks and revisit. During that time we got a decent chunk of cash (can't remember from where now), but it was earmarked to pay off income taxes from a 401k cashout we took the prior year. She asked me a few times because she knew it had just been deposited in our bank account, and she knew we needed it to pay taxes. But she had her eye on the ball - she told me she wanted to use it to rent an apartment and move out. Your wife is sending you the same signals, you're just not willing to accept it yet. I mean they're not even signals - she is flat out telling you this stuff.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> Something your wife said resonated with me. You were talking to her about the house refi, and she asked if the skipped payment for December could be used to pay for mediation. She's got her eye on the ball, and it's divorce. After my ex told me she wanted a divorce, I said let's give it a few weeks and revisit. During that time we got a decent chunk of cash (can't remember from where now), but it was earmarked to pay off income taxes from a 401k cashout we took the prior year. She asked me a few times because she knew it had just been deposited in our bank account, and she knew we needed it to pay taxes. But she had her eye on the ball - she told me she wanted to use it to rent an apartment and move out. Your wife is sending you the same signals, you're just not willing to accept it yet. I mean they're not even signals - she is flat out telling you this stuff.


You're right, they're not signals at all. As noted above, she's resolved to ending the marriage. There's no question about that. But there have been several things that suggest that she's in the fog, some of which I have shared here.

WS's say all kinds of stuff.

She was going to move out in July and didn't. She wants a divorce but won't do it. And so she comes up with whacky **** like let's live-in separate until next July. She's upset that Im not being supportive of her, not acting like I care for her even though she's telling that she wants to be divorced. She'll say that the marriage has been over for years, but we were intimate, had great times together, had great family times together, etc.

But maybe that is all hopium as Marc put it.


----------



## ButtPunch

Tex X said:


> If part of your Plan A involves a no contact letter to the OM, then yes the conversation needs to be had. Her response could be the same 'too little too late, etc.', but without having this conversation yet, your cards are not all on the table.


Plan A does not include no contact or a no contact letter.


----------



## bandit.45

DrDetroit said:


> No on the contact letter.
> 
> Yes, I have expressed the desire/want to reconcile. Though her response is I'm done, no more tries left, too little-too late.
> 
> I didn't realize that there was such a conversation point at Plan A.


Something you need to understand, and it is a truth that I had to learn the hard way. Once a woman loses respect for her man...that’s it. It is gone. The door is closed forever. There is no going back. 

Women are curious creatures that way. You could spend the rest of your life being as kind as Fred Rogers. You could find a cure for cancer. You could start an orphanage. You could become the most respectable man on earth, and still your wife will never regain her respect for you. 

Doesn’t matter if you deserve it or not, but the respect is gone. She has written you off. Reform yourself, be good and kind, calm and decent for the rest of your life. It won’t do any good. She’s through with you man.


----------



## jlg07

DrDetroit said:


> Already have and she already threw it back at me as selfish. I was clear that I am not changing for her because I'd be setting myself up for failure if we don't end up reconciled.


It's ok -- you NEED to be selfish (although you aren't) It's just her trying to guilt trip you.... don't let her manipulations work -- now that you can she what she's doing, it should take the teeth out of it.


----------



## jlg07

DrDetroit said:


> That's confusing. The more I distance myself, the more she'll focus on me?
> 
> I don't see that here.
> 
> When I was 180ing for two weeks and going out and doing stuff on my without telling her what I was doing or where or with who, I saw in her writing that she was glad I was out, *noted I was sharing details*, but also noted that she didn't care. Last week she then cited that and my detaching as a sign that I didn't care about her or the marriage.


First, you should NOT be sharing details. Second, she IS focused on you or she wouldn't be writing about it.


----------



## ButtPunch

Dr. D 

I suggest you take a break from TAM and go get advice from the MB website.

You are not going to get any support for the plan here.

Plan A is a hot topic here and is despised by most of the posters on this site (myself included).

I encourage you to give it your best shot and then come back to us if it inevitably fails.


All the Best
BP


----------



## Tex X

ButtPunch said:


> Plan A does not include no contact or a no contact letter.


I get it but it was part of his Plan A.


----------



## DrDetroit

Tex X said:


> I get it but it was part of his Plan A.


Not exactly. One of my goals for Plan A would be her writing a no contact letter. In other words, through Plan A she would decide to write a NC letter because she is remorseful, and she is opening the door to a R. It is these things that would indicate that Plan A worked, or didn't.


----------



## DrDetroit

ButtPunch said:


> Dr. D
> 
> I suggest you take a break from TAM and go get advice from the MB website.
> 
> You are not going to get any support for the plan here.
> 
> Plan A is a hot topic here and is despised by most of the posters on this site (myself included).
> 
> I encourage you to give it your best shot and then come back to us if it inevitably fails.
> 
> 
> All the Best
> BP


I'd like to know why you despite it...


----------



## Tasorundo

DrDetroit said:


> I'd like to know why you despite it...


It has been said many times. Plan A is weak, it is allowing yourself to be fed a crap sandwich in the hopes that she stops feeding it to you. It is passive, and it doesn't hold anyone to accountability.

If it worked so well, there wouldn't be a plan B.

Also, for you, she wanted to leave you before she fell in love with the other guy. She doesn't want you and all of her stalling is because she is afraid of what life is like without you. Not because you are not in it, but because she cannot afford it.


----------



## Tex X

DrDetroit said:


> Not exactly. One of my goals for Plan A would be her writing a no contact letter. In other words, through Plan A she would decide to write a NC letter because she is remorseful, and she is opening the door to a R. It is these things that would indicate that Plan A worked, or didn't.


Ah ok got it.


----------



## Stillasamountain

DrDetroit said:


> I'd like to know why you despite it...


Surely you jest? Every other post in your thread has been to tell you that playing the "pick me" dance is doomed to failure.

It could also take a spouse on the fence and push them into utter repulsion. People respect decisiveness and strength.


----------



## BluesPower

DrDetroit said:


> Not exactly. One of my goals for Plan A would be her writing a no contact letter. In other words, through Plan A she would decide to write a NC letter because she is remorseful, and she is opening the door to a R. It is these things that would indicate that Plan A worked, or didn't.


This and your other posts... 

My brother, like I said earlier. Plan A through Z will not work... She is done, she does not at all care that she hurt you by screwing around. She never will, in her mind you deserved it. 

You do what you think is right, your wife is done. You can analyze this crap till the cows come home, it will not change anything...

Just hang in there when it all ends badly, at least you can somewhat say that you tried, I guess...


----------



## Marduk

BluesPower said:


> This and your other posts...
> 
> My brother, like I said earlier. Plan A through Z will not work... She is done, she does not at all care that she hurt you by screwing around. She never will, in her mind you deserved it.
> 
> You do what you think is right, your wife is done. You can analyze this crap till the cows come home, it will not change anything...
> 
> Just hang in there when it all ends badly, at least you can somewhat say that you tried, I guess...


If OP were my buddy, I’d take you to my favourite pub, sit you down, and pour drink after drink down your throat telling you over and over that it’s done and you need to treat her like she’s the biggest threat to you and your children’s livelihood that exists. 

And then I’d point out some babes and say “and that’s what’s waiting for you on the other side of this. Awesome women that won’t treat you like an inconvenient ATM.”

God, I wish I could pour a bottle of Macallan down his throat right now and tell him that.


----------



## oldtruck

ButtPunch said:


> I agree whole heartedly.
> 
> However, I suffered thru Dr. Harley's book and their is an example similar to this case
> where BS pulls wife back in with Plan A because she realizes her financial support is gone.
> 
> OP is doing Plan A and I will advise him as such whether I like it or not.
> 
> Doing something is better than jumping all over the place


Dr Harley
Wives stray because some critical needs are not being met by the BH.
The OM will meet those 20% of those missing needs.
When the BH shows willingness to meet 100% of WW's needs it opens up the WW's
eyes to see that the OM is going to fall short because he is not willing to meet 100 of
WW's needs.

Plan A is not to exceed 6 months, at that point the BH cuts back, such as meeting
financial needs, stating at the end of 6 months he will not support his WW while she 
is in her affair. So WW it is time for your OM to step up and meet all of your needs.

At this point the BH goes NC with his WW. 180 in house separation at the minimum.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

DrDetroit said:


> I'd like to know why you despite it...


 Because no one here, in the thousands of stories read, has seen it work long term and turn into a healthy relationship. You might get her back but she won't be happy and eventually neither will you. You said Plan A already failed you twice. How many times do you plan on trying it? Wreaks of Einstein's definition of insanity.


----------



## alte Dame

I've read many threads, here and on other sites, in which the BS insists on exhausting every option in an effort to R. They always say, 'At least I can be at peace with myself because I didn't give up. I did my best to keep the family together.'

I'll be honest when I say that I don't identify with this feeling. Perhaps it's just pride, but I wouldn't try to keep someone with me who didn't want to be there.

Perhaps Dr.D is just one of those people that needs to 'try everything.' My sense is that the TAM community isn't in that camp.


----------



## Marc878

Plan A = kiss their ass, be a cuckold and hope they come back.

From what I've seen the success rate is lower than whale dung. Not to mention the false R's/repeat cheating.

JMO >


----------



## ButtPunch

Because I want betrayed spouses to love themselves enough to not tolerate this level of disrespect.

Plan A is the opposite of this. 

It takes two people to make a marriage work not one man trying to tote 100% of the burden. 

However, each of us has their own path to follow and lessons to be learned. Some learn fast and some learn the hard way but we all learn.


----------



## Wolfman1968

DrDetroit said:


> Not exactly. One of my goals for Plan A would be her writing a no contact letter. In other words, through Plan A she would decide to write a NC letter because she is remorseful, and she is opening the door to a R. It is these things that would indicate that Plan A worked, or didn't.



At this point, is a no-contact letter even meaningful? You indicated it was the OM who wanted no-contact with her. So even if she goes no-contact/writes a letter, it's because OM wanted it, NOT because she has decided to try to commit to you. It doesn't seem to have the same meaning, in my mind.

Personally, I think for marriages to work, there has to be an active, deep desire to be with the partner. If it's a "default" position--- "no one else wants me", "I don't have other options at this time", "I can't financially afford it on my own," etc.---it will be a miserable marriage at best, and more likely will fail when the "default" issues improve. (For example, if a new OM comes along, if finances change, etc., then the marriage is no longer needed.)

Even if you disregard all the other strident advice given on this thread, in the end, is this the kind of situation you want?

It really seems to me that you are in a no-win situation, because she doesn't have a deep desire to be with you. Whatever course you chose, a 180, a Plan A, whatever, I don't see how this situation is going to change. That's why I think the best route is to accept the inevitable, and make the break cleanly, and protecting yourself in the process.

Re-read Affaircare's post in this thread in which she describes her husband dropping her off at the bus station and making her choose. At that point, she had options. She could have gone to OM. But she decided to stay with her husband. An ACTIVE desire. I think that's why @Affaircare, who admits her own infidelity, turned around her situation. I don't see that you are describing that kind of desire and commitment in your wife. That's why I can't see a positive route for you with any plan to get her to come back to you. It looks like it will be a "default" reconciliation rather than an active, desired one.


----------



## Marduk

Ya, oddly enough @DrDetroit asking his wife now to go no contact with her affair partner after he dumped her would just be him respecting her affair partners wishes - cementing the affair partner in the dominant role.


----------



## hubbyintrubby

How are things going there today @DrDetroit ? Were you able to get that new bank account set up for yourself?


----------



## aine

DrDetroit said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> I believe that my wife wants a divorce, but my thinking is that shes in the fog, so interrupting her continuing comms with the AP could cause her to rethink her decision.
> 
> She says she has no hope and that my actions are too little, too late, but I'm not supposed to believe her words, I thought. So, that she hasn't made a move on divorce other than keep talking about it, I've carved out hope.


I think many here are not talking about the elephant in the room which is your prior abusive behaviour. You need to sort yourself out first. Your wife has put up with it for years, she has looked elsewhere for the affection/love you didn’t give her. Wrong of her but it has happened. Best thing is to let her go. Be the best father you can be for your kids.


----------



## aine

Wolfman1968 said:


> She will continue to do this. It will get worse.
> 
> Look, you've admitted you have had emotional problems. (Don't admit it further, though, because it will be blown out of proportion.)
> 
> You wife is using that as a cover to excuse her behavior/affair.
> Don't give her more ammunition by conceding anything.
> 
> Look, Mrs. Wolfman had some emotional/psychiatric issues. She treated me very poorly through that. I'm not going into any details about it.
> However, I had a choice. Either see her through her psychiatric issues, or leave. Treating her horribly, having affairs, using her financially would NOT have been acceptable options. Period.
> 
> Your wife is acting like she was "forced" to do what she did because of your depression/anger/withdrawing. She uses it as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card for anything she has done, or WILL DO in the future.
> That's a bunch of BS.
> 
> I suspect she didn't support you enough when you were down. Nagging you to "get help" is not the same as support. Marriage is not always 50-50. Sometimes it's 25-75, 10-90, or even 0-100 when one of the partners is having a bad time and can't hold up their end. If she doesn't want to do pick up the burden, fine, then leave. But she doesn't get a pass to have affairs, transfer her affections and emotional ties to someone else, or any other horrible behavior.
> 
> You had some bad times, but you're coming back, and you didn't want a divorce during that time, and you were willing to keep the marriage going. She is now the one being selfish, unsupportive, and involved with another person, but she is NOT willing to weather this through to save the marriage. So who is REALLY the worse person here?
> 
> For a marriage to survive, BOTH parties have to be committed to keeping it going. She is checked out, so it is impossible for the marriage to survive.
> 
> However, her sense of ENTITLEMENT due to resentment of your psychiatric problems continues. So, she is going to play that up to no end, because it will justify (in her mind) everything she does or wants from this point on.
> 
> a) She is in a bad financial situation from divorce? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so YOU NEED TO PAY. (excessive alimony, unequal split of assets, etc.)
> b) She is feeling isolated post-divorce? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so SHE GETS TO MOVE TO A NEW STATE AND TAKE THE KIDS WITH HER.
> c) 50-50 parenting time not a good option for her? In her mind, it's not because of her emotional affairs and checking out of the marriage, it's because you were depressed and withdrawn, so YOU LOSE YOUR CONTACT TIME WITH THE KIDS.
> d) And so forth, for any issue that comes up.
> 
> And she is going to continue to revise the marital history, because that gives her the justification to get whatever she wants. Because it her mind, it will become "right" and "fair" and "deserved" in light of the new narrative of the marriage.


There’s a huge difference between a person having depression and one being verbally abusive and angry. No one seems to be pointing that out and the emotional and psychological damage it causes to victims. I’m sorry OP you are not a victim here.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

aine said:


> No one seems to be pointing that out and the emotional and psychological damage it causes to victims.


You’re wrong, some off us just backed off to avoid a derail or a ban.


----------



## aine

DrDetroit said:


> Not exactly. One of my goals for Plan A would be her writing a no contact letter. In other words, through Plan A she would decide to write a NC letter because she is remorseful, and she is opening the door to a R. It is these things that would indicate that Plan A worked, or didn't.


It’s an exit affair, she is done. You have used up your chances. Abuse of any kind kills a marriage. Move on and work on yourself.


----------



## In Absentia

aine said:


> It’s an exit affair, she is done. You have used up your chances. Abuse of any kind kills a marriage. Move on and work on yourself.


I can confirm this. I have done it myself. I've been angry - and therefore abusive - maybe 5 times in my entire married life to my wife. And even so, she's never forgiven me and she can't forget. Once you destroy the trust, it's gone forever.


----------



## Lila

phillybeffandswiss said:


> aine said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one seems to be pointing that out and the emotional and psychological damage it causes to victims.
> 
> 
> 
> You’re wrong, some off us just backed off to avoid a derail or a ban.
Click to expand...

Speaking as moderator:

It is not a derail if you are addressing the OP directly. The OP needs to hear all sides to his situation. Knowledge is power.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

Well,this is going nowhere,but luckily for Dr. Detroit,he will not be in agony for that long. His wife will divorce him no matter what he says or do,and he will have his peace then. It is just unfortunate that he will give her everything in the divorce,she will take him to the cleaners,and Im sorry for that,but we cant do nothing about it. Dr. Detroit,you what you think is best for you,and it will be what will be. Good luck man,you are going ti need it.


----------



## Blondilocks

@DrDetroit, let go of trying to control the outcome via the scheming (plan A or B or 180) because it is manipulative and controlling. She's gone. Respect her enough to give her what she's asked for - a divorce.

Do implement the 180 as a tool for you - not to try to win her back.

No one can say if your wife will have a turn-around in her feelings for you; but, one thing is certain - one doesn't miss something until it's gone. Good luck.


----------



## farsidejunky

DrDetroit said:


> That's confusing. The more I distance myself, the more she'll focus on me?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see that here.
> 
> 
> 
> When I was 180ing for two weeks and going out and doing stuff on my without telling her what I was doing or where or with who, I saw in her writing that she was glad I was out, noted I was sharing details, but also noted that she didn't care. Last week she then cited that and my detaching as a sign that I didn't care about her or the marriage.


She also hadn't been dumped at that time. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

DD:

I also despise plan A. 

I have too much self love and respect to present myself as an option to someone who is actively in an affair.

I deserve better, and won't accept less. And contrary to the saying, we don't get what we deserve...we get what we accept. 

Your mileage may vary.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Chaparral

In many threads here where the OP blames himself for major relationship problems, it turns out those so called problems were exaggerated by the wayward spouse in order to shift blame. I suspect a lot of that in this thread.

Particularly in this case where the wife is in the midst of an affair with a close friend of the family. This is a most heinous affair that has nothing to do with their respective marriages. There were infinite options that did not include banging close friends. The cheaters here are simply without normal morals or character. Why on earth the Dr. Hasn't outed her to friends, neighbors and family and immediately divorced her is beyond the pale.

Banging other folks in the neighborhood is the lowest of the low.


----------



## In Absentia

Chaparral said:


> In many threads here where the OP blames himself for major relationship problems, it turns out those so called problems were exaggerated by the wayward spouse in order to shift blame. I suspect a lot of that in this thread.


Of course I'm not condoning the affair, but this doesn't paint a good picture... I think it would undermine and damage trust irreparably in any marriage...


_Issues: Me - early on and through the first several years of marriage it was anger. Angry outbursts, including road rage, raging at myself for perceived mistakes, physically hitting myself and verbally abusing myself, including suicidal talk, raging at her for perceived slights and mistakes. Raging here meaning yelling and aggressive tone of voice. Last several years the anger has receded (though not completely gone as I would lose patience and temper with my young children, including yelling at them and name-calling), but replaced with what I have recently found out to be depression that led to physical and emotional isolation and withdrawal lasting from a day to several days to several weeks. This manifested itself as not going to bed with my wife, not talking to or saying very little, not going on family activities, including holidays. Also a long history of passive aggressive behaviors, including snooping on her phone/internet and then coming at her sideways rather than talking directly about an issue.
_


----------



## farsidejunky

The OP has plenty to own.

What he fails to realize is that the very thing that leads to his raging is also responsible for leading to him wanting to save the marriage at all costs.

It ALL starts with fear.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Wolfman1968

aine said:


> There’s a huge difference between a person having depression and one being verbally abusive and angry. No one seems to be pointing that out and the emotional and psychological damage it causes to victims. I’m sorry OP you are not a victim here.



Not true. 

He can still be a victim, even if he was angry and withdrawn before. It doesn't excuse an affair, abuse, or any other behavior. 

I have already stated that Mrs. Wolfman had issues, and she was far, far, far worse to me than OP ever was. (I am not going into it, but included physical and legal abuse, in addition to mental/emotional issues far exceeding anything OP describes.) However, that did NOT give me carte blanche to be abusive, unfaithful, hateful or even neglectful in turn. I had the right to leave. But not abuse in turn. Had I done so, Mrs. Wolfman would indeed be a victim as well; perhaps less than me, but still a victim.

OP is a victim here. His wife has the option to leave if she doesn't like how he treats her, but not to mistreat, abuse or cheat on him (even emotionally).


----------



## In Absentia

Wolfman1968 said:


> His wife has the option to leave if she doesn't like how he treats her, but not to mistreat, abuse or cheat on him (even emotionally).


Of course she had the option... this is not the point. The point is that the marriage is damaged, the trust is gone and - to me - impossible to salvage...


----------



## Blondilocks

So, what I'm seeing is that no matter what one spouse does the other spouse has to be a ****ing saint even though they may not be in the best mental place to make the best decisions due to their being abused. OK, gotcha.


----------



## In Absentia

Blondilocks said:


> So, what I'm seeing is that no matter what one spouse does the other spouse has to be a ****ing saint even though they may not be in the best mental place to make the best decisions due to their being abused. OK, gotcha.


Are you replying to me? :smile2:


----------



## In Absentia

Blondilocks said:


> So, what I'm seeing is that no matter what one spouse does the other spouse has to be a ****ing saint even though they may not be in the best mental place to make the best decisions due to their being abused. OK, gotcha.


And it's true...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I have a question, this thread started moving fast, can someone show me where he found the proof of an actual affair?

Not the picnic, but something else that I may have missed.

Thank you.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> The OP has plenty to own.
> 
> What he fails to realize is that the very thing that leads to his raging is also responsible for leading to him wanting to save the marriage at all costs.
> 
> It ALL starts with fear.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


And an inability to confront and deal with reality. 

Perhaps as a way to placate his fear.


----------



## Marduk

Blondilocks said:


> So, what I'm seeing is that no matter what one spouse does the other spouse has to be a ****ing saint even though they may not be in the best mental place to make the best decisions due to their being abused. OK, gotcha.


The proper response to abuse is to leave. 

The worst response to abuse is to stay and do things that amplify the abuse. 

She doesn’t seem to be reacting like an abused, ego depleted, codependent person. She seems to be acting like a selfish, deceitful, manipulative person. 

Which in fact makes me wonder about if he’s even accurately assessing his own behaviour.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Marduk said:


> The proper response to abuse is to leave.


 Yet, hundreds of thousands remain in abusive relationships. What is proper and what is done are two wildly different things.



> The worst response to abuse is to stay and do things that amplify the abuse.


 Yet, there are thousands who are dead because they did the opposite of what you think is “the worst response.” In simpler words they left and were murdered, family members were murdered, kids were murdered etc etc etc.

Just sayin, there is no cut in dry when you are not in the situation. 



> She doesn’t seem to be reacting like an abused, ego depleted, codependent person. She seems to be acting like a selfish, deceitful, manipulative person.


Interesting. So, she is acting like her husband did during their marriage. Humans tend to do what they are taught, to make thing better for themselves. She is acting like an abused person taking back their power.




> Which in fact makes me wonder about if he’s even accurately assessing his own behaviour.


I actually said something similar, but his tone swings have altered my beliefs on his behavior.


Yep, this will be a derail so I am out. I apologize to the mods, but I hate absolutes when it comes to alleged or proven abuse.


----------



## Marduk

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yet, hundreds of thousands remain in abusive relationships. What is proper and what is done are two wildly different things.


Sure. That was kind of my point.



> Yet, there are thousands who are dead because they did the opposite of what you think is “the worst response.” In simpler words they left and were murdered, family members were murdered, kids were murdered etc etc etc.


Uh, what? This is why you leave abusers, not negotiate with them. It tends to escalate. It’s why you get out.

What’s even worse than not getting out is doing things that trigger an even higher abusive reaction. By which I mean, if he was angrily abusive to her, and then she cheated, that’s likely going to trigger even more anger and abuse. Which is bad for everybody.



> Just sayin, there is no cut in dry when you are not in the situation.


Actually, there is. If you feel you are being abused, get out of there until you are confident the abuse will end permanently, or you stay out.



> Interesting. So, she is acting like her husband did during their marriage. Humans tend to do what they are taught, to make thing better for themselves. She is acting like an abused person taking back their power.


Possibly. That’s some pretty big speculation though. A counter-indicator to that narrative is the fact that she wants to stay at the house while they separate. That implies she feels relatively safe there, not that she’s taking back her power.




> I actually said something similar, but his tone swings have altered my beliefs on his behavior.


Possible.




> Yep, this will be a derail so I am out. I apologize to the mods, but I hate absolutes when it comes to alleged or proven abuse.


OK.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Marduk said:


> Sure. That was kind of my point.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, what? This is why you leave abusers, not negotiate with them. It tends to escalate. It’s why you get out.
> 
> What’s even worse than not getting out is doing things that trigger an even higher abusive reaction. By which I mean, if he was angrily abusive to her, and then she cheated, that’s likely going to trigger even more anger and abuse. Which is bad for everybody.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there is. If you feel you are being abused, get out of there until you are confident the abuse will end permanently, or you stay out.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly. That’s some pretty big speculation though. A counter-indicator to that narrative is the fact that she wants to stay at the house while they separate. That implies she feels relatively safe there, not that she’s taking back her power.
> 
> 
> 
> Possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK.


We fundamentally disagree, your speculation is no smaller than mine, on various points and this could be its own thread. You want to discuss it somewhere else I will participate, but not in this thread.


----------



## Affaircare

Hey...is anyone on this thread actually speaking to the OP? He hasn't been back here on this thread in quite a while, and without his input all we're doing is talking amoungst ourselves...TO ourselves.


----------



## DrDetroit

Wow, this thread went awry quickly. And that's usually the case it seems having read a lot of the threads here. A temporary lack of OP posting leads to the posters speculating, projecting, and arguing with themselves. I remember posting something similar last week here, I think.

The strident nature of so many posts is interesting, too. The confidence exhibited in declarative statements and pronouncements that is unearned is also interesting.

Look, I think I was fairly descriptive about my side of the street in this. I saw a recent poster doubting that I was accurately portraying my behaviors. Of course I have presented every last detail many of which are likely forgotten. I don't think I was easy on myself in describing my behaviors in this marriage. I've damaged my marriage in real, tangible ways. That damage has had all sorts of consequences, including my wife checking out and becoming vulnerable to an affair that she ultimately chose to engage in.

About the affair, I've posted several times, all known evidence points to an emotional affair only, no physical. That is what is known. Which is why I tend to discount those responses that rely on a PA having happened. Early on posters were confidently declaring that a PA was not just likely but has occurred. Maybe, but I don't know that and certainly no one posting here does, either.

As for my time changing throughout these posts, well, yeah, as my IC has warned me over and over again, my emotions and reactions are on a pendulum. Rather than exposing that pendulum at home, I do so here. Affaircare has detected this and remarked on it.

I appreciate all of the advice and comments even if I don't agree or choose to follow it. I don't believe that makes me an idiot unable to see what some of you think is perfectly clear to you.

My wife clearly believes that she has been in an abusive marriage, abusive both emotionally and mentally. I am responsible for that. I did that. A new poster to thread rightly points that out and concludes, from their perspective, that a marriage cannot be salvaged. Fair point. That doesn't mean I need to let go of I think or want the marriage to be repaired. Is my wife decides that she needs to divorce, then she will file and go for it. Meanwhile, I will not enable the affair, I will not find the affair, and I will be a better me for me and for my kids if she's not along for the ride.


----------



## DrDetroit

New bank account and DD changes next pay period.

Intended to expose this weekend, but when I called her mom, dad, and brother they were not available, so I stopped given that was half her family that I was going to contact. I will contacting family and friends tomorrow to expose the affair. I will tell them what I know and what I know about the affair.

Did see an email to her dad wherein she mentions that she's sleeping in the couch and we're not working on the marriage, but no mention of the OM.


----------



## DrDetroit

aine said:


> There’s a huge difference between a person having depression and one being verbally abusive and angry. No one seems to be pointing that out and the emotional and psychological damage it causes to victims. I’m sorry OP you are not a victim here.


Aine, I appreciate your comments so far. My behaviors in this marriage were horrible.

I am not claiming victim status. I don't think the poster you were responding to intended to paint me as a victim. Rather, the other poster was, I think (through my biased lens), rightly c9nnectinfy wifes consequences to her behaviors.


----------



## minimalME

So, when you're 'exposing' her to her family members, will you be sharing all your ****ty behavior too? Just curious.



DrDetroit said:


> My behaviors in this marriage were horrible.


----------



## DrDetroit

minimalME said:


> So, when you're 'exposing' her to her family members, will you be sharing all your ****ty behavior too? Just curious.


Yep. Hence the call and not a letter or an email. I will own my behaviors and their impacts on my wife and kids and what I have done specifically the last 6 months to change.


----------



## Marduk

Careful. 

Just because she feels she was abused doesn’t mean you were abusive. 

My ex had me thinking the same. Took a year of therapy to realize the abuse was actually the other way around. 

Have you discussed with a qualified individual therapist?


----------



## farsidejunky

Marduk said:


> And an inability to confront and deal with reality.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps as a way to placate his fear.


No perhaps about it. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Affaircare

I agree with @Marduk in this one point. It's one thing to own your side of the street, and it's another to expose an affair. The point of exposure is to a) inform those who will likely be impacted that if there is a divorce, it's due to cheating...not any other euphamism, and b) ask for their help to encourage your wife to work on the commitment she made to you and her family. 

See that? TWO focuses:

a) inform of affair
b) ask for help

So if you expose via phone, I strongly suggest that you essentially keep to the script and don't add to it. I do get it--there were circumstances surrounding your wife's affair that maybe created an environment where she was "vulnerable" but like I said to another poster here on TAM, that is not "why" she cheated. She has a thousand other options she could have done, even with all your trespasses. You were not the best husband--you raged. Let's not minimize it. BUT she had options other than adultery, many of which would have been honorable and moral. 

So again, I suggest you keep the calls short and on point. You are informing, and asking for help to save your marriage. If they ask more questions--which let's be honest, they'll probably want to know, right?--I would recommend saying something like, "At this time, I'm just not ready to go into more detail. I just wanted to let you know why we're struggling and that I would really appreciate your help in this, if you'll consider it. We can talk more another time." 

Okay? Use your own words but something along that line would be my best recommendation. Short calls--focused--on task. Done. And you aren't trying to deny your part in the breakdown of the marriage, but that's not what this call is about. This call is about adultery.


----------



## minimalME

Sorry, but I don't believe this for a minute.

How many people call up relatives/friends to _genuinely_ ask for help with their spouse after an affair has been discovered? 

And that's a completely rhetorical question, because if you tell me you (any of you) did, I won't believe you. Maybe 200 years ago people sought out the support of the community, but not today.

The majority of people on this site who respond to these threads are so full of bitterness and anger that the very last thing on their minds is being truly helpful and mending marriages.

Other than satisfying feelings of spite and revenge and to soothe a bruised ego, what is the goal of bad-mouthing your spouse?

What good does that do?

I see none, which is why I just don't get it. And as I said on another thread recently, I would never, ever reconcile with someone who did this to me.



Affaircare said:


> b) ask for help


----------



## DrDetroit

Marduk said:


> Careful.
> 
> Just because she feels she was abused doesn’t mean you were abusive.
> 
> My ex had me thinking the same. Took a year of therapy to realize the abuse was actually the other way around.
> 
> Have you discussed with a qualified individual therapist?


Discussed whether my behaviors constituted abuse or talking to her family about my behaviors?

I agree that how she feels doesn't necessarily mean that I was something. It does mean, though, that she's had a ****ty ride in the marriage whether or not it was abuse.


----------



## Marduk

DrDetroit said:


> Discussed whether my behaviors constituted abuse or talking to her family about my behaviors?
> 
> I agree that how she feels doesn't necessarily mean that I was something. It does mean, though, that she's had a ****ty ride in the marriage whether or not it was abuse.


Discussed with your therapist if you were actually abusive. 

It is possible you were. It’s also possible it’s what she wants to be true to drive her narrative. 

My ex had me 100% convinced I was emotionally and physically abusive, and had various disorders. 

None of which was actually true. I actually desperately wanted it to be true because then her behaviour made sense. 

Being angry is not being abusive. Being controlling or threatening is abusive. It’s literally a cliche to have a cheater claim their spouse was abusive to justify the cheating.


----------



## Blondilocks

Is being angry with and calling your children names abusive? People want to know why she didn't just leave. I'd have to venture it was because of the kids. She wanted to make sure she could protect them at all times.


----------



## honcho

minimalME said:


> Sorry, but I don't believe this for a minute.
> 
> How many people call up relatives/friends to _genuinely_ ask for help with their spouse after an affair has been discovered?
> 
> And that's a completely rhetorical question, because if you tell me you (any of you) did, I won't believe you. Maybe 200 years ago people sought out the support of the community, but not today.
> 
> The majority of people on this site who respond to these threads are so full of bitterness and anger that the very last thing on their minds is being truly helpful and mending marriages.
> 
> Other than satisfying feelings of spite and revenge and to soothe a bruised ego, what is the goal of bad-mouthing your spouse?
> 
> What good does that do?
> 
> I see none, which is why I just don't get it. And as I said on another thread recently, I would never, ever reconcile with someone who did this to me.


I think timing has a lot to do with seeing a benefit and it's situational. Not all affairs are created equal. Some people have affairs but dont necessarily want a divorce, they are looking for a "thrill" or whatnot. Exposing can be a wake up call and not done out of bitterness. It's not a one size fits all strategy. 

I don't think in this person's particular situation any benefit can get gained and unless I'm mistaken her sister and mom already know about the om so it not some deep dark secret. The affair, at least for now is not active and she's not changing her mind about divorce. He's risking too much for too little possible gain at this stage.


----------



## Wolfman1968

In Absentia said:


> Of course she had the option... this is not the point. The point is that the marriage is damaged, the trust is gone and - to me - impossible to salvage...



I don't disagree with you. I also think the marriage is likely beyond retrieval. 

My comment you quoted about her options is addressing HOW she is leaving the marriage. If the marriage is over for her, than she takes responsibility for HOW she leaves. If she leaves by affairs (emotional or otherwise), neglect, passive-aggressive behavior, sabotaging the husband's relationship with the kids by snarky comments, or whatever, then all that blame is on her. And any pain she inflicts on the OP during the process is entirely her fault, and not excusable regardless of any anger or withdrawal during the marriage by the OP. It also, contrary to what other posters have said, DOES make the OP a victim of that behavior.


----------



## In Absentia

minimalME said:


> I would never, ever reconcile with someone who did this to me.


IMO, he is trying to reconcile because he knows he damaged his marriage, his wife and his family badly. I don't understand the need to expose, though. If the OP wants to reconcile, what's the point of the exposure? That'll drive his wife further away.


----------



## In Absentia

Wolfman1968 said:


> I don't disagree with you. I also think the marriage is likely beyond retrieval.
> 
> My comment you quoted about her options is addressing HOW she is leaving the marriage.


Agree with you here...


----------



## In Absentia

Marduk said:


> It is possible you were.



Possible? Have you read his own description? Calling his children names too? It sounds like a very toxic marriage to me.



Marduk said:


> Being angry is not being abusive


it is if it becomes a constant in your marriage.


----------



## MattMatt

But it is so very, very easy for a truly manipulative spouse or parent or coworker, etc, to engineer situations where they can make the other person react badly to appear to be angry all the time, abusive, etc.

I have witnessed this, so it's not just a pet theory.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

In Absentia said:


> IMO, he is trying to reconcile because he knows he damaged his marriage, his wife and his family badly. I don't understand the need to expose, though. If the OP wants to reconcile, what's the point of the exposure? That'll drive his wife further away.


Exposure is usually done to bring the affair out into the open, which takes away its power and brings shame, and therefore (in theory) puts an end to it. However in this particular situation, I agree with you, I am not understanding the purpose, because the family is already aware, and the affair has ended and there is currently no contact between them. My personal feeling is that this is just going to piss her off even more, and drive her away that much faster, if that's even possible.


----------



## In Absentia

3Xnocharm said:


> However in this particular situation, I agree with you, I am not understanding the purpose, because the family is already aware, and the affair has ended and there is currently no contact between them. My personal feeling is that this is just going to piss her off even more, and drive her away that much faster, if that's even possible.


Well, yes... :smile2:


----------



## Marduk

In Absentia said:


> Possible? Have you read his own description? Calling his children names too? It sounds like a very toxic marriage to me.
> 
> 
> 
> it is if it becomes a constant in your marriage.


I’m not defending him. I’m specifically asking him to get a therapist and seek their advice on this. And let me give you an example as to why.

In my first marriage, my wife had me 100% certain I had been both emotionally and physically abusive.

The emotional abuse stemmed from my attempts to control her: keep her away from her family, keep her from her friends, and being angry with her all the time. Through therapy, I learned that my keeping her from her family was actually not cantering my own life around her family - she had moved away from her parents and we were driving to her home town two weekends a month to stay with her family, and were spending every vacation with them either at their home or at their vacation property with them. I literally spent more time with her parents than I did with my own family and friends combined - and I was fine with her going on her own. So no actual control there, just pushback against allowing myself to be controlled and subsumed by her own family.

Similarly with her friends. She would fly through friends - an endless treadmill of new friends that would be amazing and we’d have to spend all our time with them, then they would be gone because they made her mad. And it was exhausting!

Regarding the anger - a lot of it stemmed from the stuff above, but it also stemmed from insults I’d receive: I never made enough money (even though I was pulling six figures at 26), I never stood up to my family enough (because they’d want to see me once every month or two and it got in the way), being denied sex for months on end and then being told I was some kind of sex maniac because that wasn’t fine with me, being told I was unattractive, stupid, lazy... when I was getting hit on often, was getting promoted at work, when I was helping to run a large dojo and teaching martial arts. On top of all that, she told me I had ‘passive dependant disorder’ whereby I literally couldn’t do a thing without her because I was so passive and codependent - when I literally couldn’t have done all that if it were true.

There were times when I yelled at her. There were times that I insulted her. On their own, I would call this abuse. I accept this and don’t condone it. However, those times came very much after I had endured significant amounts of the same from her, and I had just had enough or wanted to get out. Not saying it’s right - but I very much realize that she had at times ‘engineered’ these situations to make me the *******.

Regarding the physical abuse - this stems from one incident where I pushed her. And I spent a very long time beating myself up about it. It took a therapist months to finally pry out of me what had happened - even when we went to marriage counselling my wife had sworn me to secrecy about it ‘to protect me.’ Finally, with some deep IC work, getting to the context of what happened, I finally told the whole story. Which was: I had come home from work - I had been working full-time and going to school full-time to support both of us. And when I came home, she was furious about me leaving some dishes out in the kitchen or something. She started yelling at me, insulting me, and actually had me backed up against a wall when she started slapping me. She hit me over and over, and by this point this was somewhat normal - at least a slap or two. But this one kept going. So I pushed her. Very gently. I grabbed her lightly by her shoulders, and pushed her gently but firmly back so I could walk away.

And that was my physical abuse. She threatened to call the cops, she held that over me for a very long time. Even after she threw a frying pan or pot at my head and actually knocked me out. For that one, she called me weak on top of it.

But I was 100% convinced I was an abusive *******. I mean, 100% certain. I thought she was protecting me by not bringing it up to therapists or family or friends or the cops. Turns out, I was the one being abused.

And all of that went from once every few months to once every day or two once her affair started, and she very much wanted me to be the one in the wrong, and wanted me just to leave on my own. Her frustration stemmed from me trying to stick it out.


----------



## In Absentia

Marduk said:


> I’m not defending him. I’m specifically asking him to get a therapist and seek their advice on this. And let me give you an example as to why.
> 
> In my first marriage, my wife had me 100% certain I had been both emotionally and physically abusive.


Fine, but from what the OP's told us, I still don't see how his angry behaviour is his wife's fault... or that he was pushed... and he is already doing IC. I just don't buy it he's been gaslighted...


----------



## Marduk

In Absentia said:


> Fine, but from what the OP's told us, I still don't see how his angry behaviour is his wife's fault... or that he was pushed... and he is already doing IC. I just don't buy it he's been gaslighted...


As I said, entirely possible. However, he acts incredibly passively while his wife acts incredibly assertively.

This does not track with the narrative that is being presented.

He should discuss with his IC.


----------



## aine

Wolfman1968 said:


> Not true.
> 
> He can still be a victim, even if he was angry and withdrawn before. It doesn't excuse an affair, abuse, or any other behavior.
> 
> I have already stated that Mrs. Wolfman had issues, and she was far, far, far worse to me than OP ever was. (I am not going into it, but included physical and legal abuse, in addition to mental/emotional issues far exceeding anything OP describes.) However, that did NOT give me carte blanche to be abusive, unfaithful, hateful or even neglectful in turn. I had the right to leave. But not abuse in turn. Had I done so, Mrs. Wolfman would indeed be a victim as well; perhaps less than me, but still a victim.
> 
> OP is a victim here. His wife has the option to leave if she doesn't like how he treats her, but not to mistreat, abuse or cheat on him (even emotionally).


 @wolfman68 yes in a perfect world that is all true, but any kind of abuse has consequences (whether those are right or wrong). No-one deserves any type of abuse, no-one deserves infidelity but there you have it. They are both victims or they both deserve each other. Humanity is messy isn't it?


----------



## aine

Wolfman1968 said:


> Not true.
> 
> He can still be a victim, even if he was angry and withdrawn before. It doesn't excuse an affair, abuse, or any other behavior.
> 
> I have already stated that Mrs. Wolfman had issues, and she was far, far, far worse to me than OP ever was. (I am not going into it, but included physical and legal abuse, in addition to mental/emotional issues far exceeding anything OP describes.) However, that did NOT give me carte blanche to be abusive, unfaithful, hateful or even neglectful in turn. I had the right to leave. But not abuse in turn. Had I done so, Mrs. Wolfman would indeed be a victim as well; perhaps less than me, but still a victim.
> 
> OP is a victim here. His wife has the option to leave if she doesn't like how he treats her, but not to mistreat, abuse or cheat on him (even emotionally).


 @wolfman68 yes in a perfect world that is all true, but any kind of abuse has consequences (whether those are right or wrong). No-one deserves any type of abuse, no-one deserves infidelity but there you have it. They are both victims or they both deserve each other. Humanity is messy isn't it?


----------



## aine

Wolfman1968 said:


> Not true.
> 
> He can still be a victim, even if he was angry and withdrawn before. It doesn't excuse an affair, abuse, or any other behavior.
> 
> I have already stated that Mrs. Wolfman had issues, and she was far, far, far worse to me than OP ever was. (I am not going into it, but included physical and legal abuse, in addition to mental/emotional issues far exceeding anything OP describes.) However, that did NOT give me carte blanche to be abusive, unfaithful, hateful or even neglectful in turn. I had the right to leave. But not abuse in turn. Had I done so, Mrs. Wolfman would indeed be a victim as well; perhaps less than me, but still a victim.
> 
> OP is a victim here. His wife has the option to leave if she doesn't like how he treats her, but not to mistreat, abuse or cheat on him (even emotionally).


 @wolfman68 yes in a perfect world that is all true, but any kind of abuse has consequences (whether those are right or wrong). No-one deserves any type of abuse, no-one deserves infidelity but there you have it. They are both victims or they both deserve each other. Humanity is messy isn't it?


----------



## DrDetroit

Has anyone used webwatcher, flexispy, spyzie, or anything else like that? All of these apps seem rather sketchy, whether it's in the user reviews on 3rd party sites or BBB (webwatcher), the way they process payments; or look fake (I noticed that spyzie and fonemonitor look exactly the same).


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

It seems that nobody has nothing to tell you any more. Your wife is divorcing you and you just dont get it. So sad...


----------



## Affaircare

@DrDetroit, 

I have not used webwatcher, flexispy, spyzie, or anything else like that. Why are you asking about these kinds of spying softwares? Usually people use these to confirm to themselves that their spouse is cheating. We've already established that your wife did commit adultery and she has "confessed" or said right out loud that she did. So what's the point of spying on her now?

If I remember correctly, you have chosen to follow the MarriageBuilders plan of Plan A until the end of October, and then Plan B until the end of the year. You have exposed to both families and mentors, and either the affair ended or did not. [NOTE TO SELF: when a person "exposes" the idea is that you take the affair out of hiding and darkness and bring it to light, so there's no more lying and secrets about the affair. One would hope that family might encourage the WS to end the affair and honor their marriage commitment, but in the real world, families usually are more like "We don't want to get involved" or "Well we want him/her to do what makes them happy..." Sadly, that's just the way it is.]

Soooo...as I understand it, you'd be in Plan A now. The affair is out in the open. It's either ongoing or not, but either way, your job is to Plan A. That would mean working on yourself so you don't do lovebusters, and doing the best you can to demonstrate the ways you can meet needs, and standing for the marriage/family so that the WS can not do damage to the family unit (so for example, protecting finances and not funding the affair). Is this what you are doing? How does spyware work into Plan A? 

I'm pretty confused. Again, the goal was to pick ONE method of dealing with the adultery, and to do that method 100% without hodge-podging bits and pieces together.  :scratchhead:


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