# Am I making things up?



## canitrustagain (Jan 16, 2012)

I feel like I've been reading these forums for too long. I've never posted until now. I'm just not sure what to do. Sometimes I think I let my imagination run wild but the logical side of me says that there are too many inconsistencies. I'm sorry it's so long...

A lot of this came out after I checked his email that he left up over the holidays. When I checked his email, I was searching for something, anything to guide me in the right direction for why I feel so unsettled. I started feeling this way this summer when he started taking his cell EVERYWHERE with him. To bed, to the toilet, to the bathroom when he showered. It's the first thing he reads in the morning. Last thing at night. We freely look at each other's phones and he has deleted all email, text and call histories. He doesn't use the family computer to check email - only his phone. I've asked him repeatedly why he is doing these things bc they are not normal and seem suspicious, and he says he's just checking scores or ready a sports blog. 

What I found in his email did not comfort me but it wasn't a smoking gun. Here's the highlights:
1) He forwarded two photos of a naked (headless) woman from his cell to his email (taken of herself) which was sent while I was out of town with the kids. It should be noted that he called to tell me how honorable he was that he left what turned into a "girls gone wild" party on the water last summer. I just filed the call in my memory bank hoping it wasn't something that held any value. In what I thought would be a futile effort, I hopped on Facebook trying to ID the naked woman in the photo and what do I find? Photos of him posted on these young girls pages and my husband in the background, beer in hand. The behavior among the girls included spanking, breast fondling, kissing, etc. He wasn't participating, just watching and drinking. I also discovered an interesting time overlap bw when these girls posted photos in the same destination as one of my husband's "guy trips" last year. This particular group of friends he's met through a co-worker who exhibits less than stellar morals. When we do go out, he knows all the young girls and they make comments to me like, "I can't believe you actually stick with a guy like ABC." Naturally, I ask WTH? He just brushes it off with a comment about how great he talks about me to them. I can't count how many times this has happened in the last few months. I don't hang out with a separate group of people so I have been completely taken aback at who he knows and how well he seems to know them.
2) He has planned a variety of "guys trips" that I've not even been made aware of yet houses/rooms are reserved, flights booked and rental cars secured (withholding information is an issue that we have discussed in the past - I'm normally only told 2 weeks beforehand). 
3) He's been communicating one on one with a nurse from a doctor's office to her personal email account and referencing text messages they've sent. Nothing sexual - just friendly - including references to free items he has brought her countless times from his work, yet he's never mentioned her not once and he's in that office at least once a week. 
4) I also saw an email indicating he has a private email account that I've never heard of. Please note, he heard me mention an email account about a month ago and acted like I committed a crime however it's an email for our children's bday party invites that's been used on the invites for the past 3 years.

I forwarded the emails to myself, not worried about him finding out bc I planned to speak with him as soon as I got home. (I started therapy 3 yrs ago bc of bottling up my feelings of my husband's past actions that are very similar to these. He only went 2x with me.) Unfortunately, my daughter was playing on my phone while I was at dinner, somehow opened the emails and saw one of the naked photos. She called my husband immediately (he traveled home from the holiday trip before us of course) and tells him she saw the naked lady on mommy's phone that he sent and proceeded to describe the woman. My husband did not even call me to ask about it. He mentioned it in passing 2 days later and I told him we would talk that night when we got home and the kids were asleep. I was resolved not say anything until I met with my therapist to seek guidance on how to best handle asking him about it. Even though I was naturally reserved, my husband said nothing for two more days after I got home - not even a question about how I got the photo! The day before my therapy appt he delayed going to work so we could talk after the kids left. 
I told him what happened and what I found. He said all the right things. "I'm sorry. I will do whatever it takes to make you trust me. I'm going to go to counseling with you bc fixing what's wrong will make use better, not just bc it's the right thing to say. I didn't look at things from your perspective. I can see how you would feel that way. I will give you all my passwords to everything. I want you to check that means you care." (Please note, I did not bring up the other email acct I found out about and he has yet to mention it.) 
He told me he has been seeing a counselor to work on himself since we last went to marriage counseling. I was so hopeful and shared this all with my therapist who was happy at my improvement in not "freaking out." But then...
The next day a co-worker (and my dear friend's husband) called me to finalize surprise bday plans we'd made for our spouses. Turns out my husband planned ANOTHER "guys trip" on his bday with this same group of friends from the girls gone wild party. Again, I'm the last to know (the friend assumed I knew bc it was just in passing conversation he found out about the trip and realized we needed to reschedule our party plans. He actually thought I was going too based on his conversation with my husband). I asked my husband about it when came home and his first response is that our friend must have misunderstood. Then it's, "I haven't had the chance to tell you, we just made the plans" (FYI... checked his email after that, it's been planned, reservations made since November). 
Somehow we end up taking about our therapists so he asks, "What are you even doing to improve yourself?" I shared the issues that I was working on and asked him the same question. "None of your business." I asked what his therapist's name was and he snapped back, "What's yours?" I gave the name and repeated the question to him. He can't remember! Three years of counseling and he can't remember. As it turns out, he's only been a "handful of times over lunch." Is that therapy? I go weekly in a private setting. Lunch doesn't seem like any kind of true treatment. It just sounded good in the heat of the moment when I told him about all that I found and that I was having serious trust issues. Also, he's told me two different referral sources for how he found this therapist during two different discussions. It just doesn't match. Supposedly he has an appt this week and honestly, I don't know if it's true.

He was also supposed to cancel a personal checking account so we'd have one joint checking (I cancelled mine per our agreement) and he still has it. We agreed to do this when he came to counseling before to help build trust. He pays for his guy trips with it. Just saw a nearly $2000 expense paid from it. I've asked once before about it and again he said he would cancel and has not.

I just don't know what to do. We have two children (6 and 4) and 50/50 custody of a child (14) from his first marriage. I'm exhausted. Lack of trust is so unhealthy. Without it, I don't feel safe or loved. It's like he can't stop lying. Even his friends say, "We bought it again!" He has this way of not giving information or deliberately releasing only what he wants to give at just the right time. 

Do I have a right to be concerned about these choices he makes? His responses when I ask? This is the second time we've had problems with his not sharing information or manipulation of information. This was a lot of what I went to counseling for to begin with. 

I don't think he's a bad person. He does provide for us financially. He is excellent at his job. He is adored by our children. He showers me with compliments (normally about my appearance though). He speaks highly of me to others. He is wonderful to his mother. He's highly intelligent. He does tell me he loves me and I do believe him which makes it even harder to deal with the above.

ADDITIONAL INFO: Married for 7 years. He is 12 yrs older than I am. His second marriage, my first.


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## HerToo (Oct 3, 2011)

List down what you want out of a marriage, and list out what you have. Do they match? No! 

He's playing you time after time and you are letting him do it to you, and that is causing you mental problems in return.

My advice, get some divorce papers and present them to him. Tell him he can read them at his next "guys" trip. That way he won't be "bothered" by his wife and family. Say nothing as to why you are giving him papers. 

See how he reacts.


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## tmh (Jan 17, 2012)

Don't let this fool play you. These are not actions of an honorable stand-up guy. He does not sound trustworthy, and isn't your time, your happiness worth more than some fluffy, pre-makeup sex words? 

He's got 2 choices, ditch the friends or find a lawyer.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

It sounds really suspicious. 

You're going to have to draw the line. Do some reading here and on the net. Many people have confronted this issue and have described ways to find information. Hubby is not acting ethically. 

At the very least, demand that he close the separate checking accounts. And end the guy trips. I am a guy. My marriage is more important than the guys. Those trips are disruptive. And you need to go to the phone company and get his call records.


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## canitrustagain (Jan 16, 2012)

Thank to those that responded... Here's a quick update:

Turns out my husband actually did attend his counseling appt this week (I know bc I drove by during his appt time to see his car for myself). He came home and informed me that his therapist said there was nothing wrong with having photos of naked women on his phone (at least that's what he "heard" or he made up). He continued that the therapist said it was very normal these days for men to have such photos in their email and on their phones. You have got to be kidding me! The therapist asked why did I start counseling to begin with years ago and my husband said he did not know so he actually asked me why when he got home! Clearly, he was not paying attention the first time our marriage had issues. Maybe the therapist will address this later with him.

Then my husband proceeded to tell me the therapist's primary goal is to figure out what makes me tic and how to best communicate with a person who has low self-esteem. My husband should stop complimenting me about my appearance bc I need something else to feel better about myself. As my counselor so aptly put the next day: "Yeah, people who have lower self esteem need the TRUTH to feel safe and comfortable." 

In addition to standing his ground that planning trips w/o my knowledge and hanging out with the "girls gone wild" crew is NOT behavior that should erode trust, my husband proceeded to tell me how he's never felt loved or admired; that he should be my hero, not my father; that my mother betrayed him by telling me about his revelation to her (they rarely have a one-on-one conversation) that I'm depressed, needed to be on prozac and she should be the one to tell me; and that I set too high of expectations in life. 

I'm the first to understand that I must work on myself while working on my marriage to make it work. I don't expect it to be an easy road - it hasn't been for the nearly 3 yrs that I've been working on it. That's how I started 2 years ago when I went to counseling the first time - working on me - and that's what I'm still doing.

Am I asking for too much for him to see that the collective whole of his questionable actions don't equal trust? Am I setting the expectation to high to ask him to plan the trips w/ my input? How can he start counseling and come home a bigger a** than when he left?

Other than what is required to care for our kids and handle current repairs being made to the house, I cannot bring myself to speak to him. He wasn't speaking with me for the first day following but now he's trying to act normal. I can't do it.


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## smiley_joe (Jan 21, 2012)

First post after months of trolling -

As a guy in an 8 year marriage (with similar issues as well and contemplating our future) I call BS !! That is not what it is supposed to be about, especially with kids. Ive learned that there is a fine line line between privacy and secrets. In a marriage, there should be no secrets. My wife does the same with her cell phone and "secret" email accts ect,,,, This isn't healthy IMO. I dont like it either. Not that he is cheating or anything, but I picture a good marriage as one when either are having the best time of their life only to have it spoiled by the fact that the other, the who should be on my death bed, is not there. I don't have that now, and sounds like you don't either. We are both facing the same decision.


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## starburst (Jan 19, 2012)

My wife used to get maybe 2 or 3 texts a day and would let me play with her phone and very open about letting me see any messages etc, it was never in a snoopy way, just how it was, we then had a rough patch and seperated for a few months, once we reconciled, now she has new friends from other cities that I have never been introduced too, (She openly talks about them though) (Girls she says) and she gets 100's of texts a day and the phone NEVER leaves her pocket, if she goes to the bathroom, it goes with her. I don't suspect cheating, rather new friends, probably some that she can blow steam off to about me. But, it does make a person think if they guard their cell phone so hard, what are they hiding. I know the numbers etc due to our bill, But I have taken the high road and not called them or looked into them, or try to look at her phone. Whats done is done and as long as she is giving me what I need in a relationship, I guess I will bury the rest, somehow. If there was a second indicator of cheating I would worry, but there hasn't been. So to the poster of this thread, you have more than enough to demand some answers, don't accuse, rather tell him how everything is making you feel, maybe he will realize this makes you sad, and will quit. Being cornered does not work with a man usually, we usually make things worse then.


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## canitrustagain (Jan 16, 2012)

smiley_joe said:


> First post after months of trolling -
> 
> As a guy in an 8 year marriage (with similar issues as well and contemplating our future) I call BS !! That is not what it is supposed to be about, especially with kids. Ive learned that there is a fine line line between privacy and secrets. In a marriage, there should be no secrets. My wife does the same with her cell phone and "secret" email accts ect,,,, This isn't healthy IMO. I dont like it either. Not that he is cheating or anything, but I picture a good marriage as one when either are having the best time of their life only to have it spoiled by the fact that the other, the who should be on my death bed, is not there. I don't have that now, and sounds like you don't either. We are both facing the same decision.


I'm so sorry to hear you are going through the same situation. Sometimes I think that it can be harder when you are in a dysfunctional marriage and your spouse's actions don't fit into some of the universally acceptable reasons to divorce. It's like you said - it walks a fine line. And really that line is defined by your own personal beliefs and past experiences. (My husband's first wife had a very public affair with a co-worker and he said he filed as soon as he found out.)

A dear friend of mine is in the process of divorcing her verbally abusive husband that has been caught gambling, cheating, hiding money, etc. Clearly, he did not honor their marriage. That is so black and white to me. I almost wish sometimes I would catch him cheating to make it clear. I cannot believe I actually just wrote that. I guess I'm most afraid of making the wrong decision and being "the bad guy." Pathetic, right? My husband has already thrown the blame to me if our marriage ends. He said, "I'll keep going to therapy until you tell me to stop and that it's not worth it any more." I asked my counselor this week how long am I supposed to go on not engaging with my husband? His response, "Until there is no mystery and everything is transparent. You have to decide how long you can wait." 

If I may ask, have you been to marriage counseling with your spouse? If so, what has been the result?


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## canitrustagain (Jan 16, 2012)

starburst said:


> My wife used to get maybe 2 or 3 texts a day and would let me play with her phone and very open about letting me see any messages etc, it was never in a snoopy way, just how it was, we then had a rough patch and seperated for a few months, once we reconciled, now she has new friends from other cities that I have never been introduced too, (She openly talks about them though) (Girls she says) and she gets 100's of texts a day and the phone NEVER leaves her pocket, if she goes to the bathroom, it goes with her. I don't suspect cheating, rather new friends, probably some that she can blow steam off to about me. But, it does make a person think if they guard their cell phone so hard, what are they hiding. I know the numbers etc due to our bill, But I have taken the high road and not called them or looked into them, or try to look at her phone. Whats done is done and as long as she is giving me what I need in a relationship, I guess I will bury the rest, somehow. If there was a second indicator of cheating I would worry, but there hasn't been. So to the poster of this thread, you have more than enough to demand some answers, don't accuse, rather tell him how everything is making you feel, maybe he will realize this makes you sad, and will quit. Being cornered does not work with a man usually, we usually make things worse then.


Thank you so much for the insight. You are so correct about the approach. From past experiences with my husband and counseling, I've learned that cornering him does not work. When he told me that that naked photos were ok, all I could do was hang my head and cry. There was no anger or lashing out. I told him that I was so sad and it broke my heart that we were in this place. I just cannot understand why it's ok for him to do all of the things that I mentioned in my original post. He had no response. All he could do was point the finger at me. He couldn't even agree to communicate better bc he doesn't think there's anything wrong with what he did. I think that may be what is so frustrating now. He's not owning his actions. 

Thus far, I've been like you on the phone records. I'm afraid that if I really start digging, it could be counter-productive to learning to trust (if we are able to move past this). I may find nothing but bc I'm in such a sad place, I could create more worry for no reason.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

This is his second marriage. He probably carried whatever problem he had in his first marriage to this one. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the cause of the breakdown of his first marriage. Have you spoken with his first wife? Could be a massive eyeopener for you.

You obviously have suspicions. Perhaps buy a few voice activated recorders and hide them in various places around the house. Velcro one underneath his car seat. Eventually you'll get enough info to either confirm or repudiate your suspicions. 

His counselor sucks (if he's telling the truth). 

It's depressing when your spouse appears dishonest.


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## canitrustagain (Jan 16, 2012)

aug said:


> This is his second marriage. He probably carried whatever problem he had in his first marriage to this one. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the cause of the breakdown of his first marriage. Have you spoken with his first wife? Could be a massive eyeopener for you.
> 
> You obviously have suspicions. Perhaps buy a few voice activated recorders and hide them in various places around the house. Velcro one underneath his car seat. Eventually you'll get enough info to either confirm or repudiate your suspicions.
> 
> ...


It's funny you mention talking to his ex. I've often wished I could have a candid discussion but I don't think I could trust her. She hasn't been pleasant to co-parent with all the time - very self-involved. I have read some old correspondence from her though - my husband saves everything. In fact, he has an entire box of mementos from that marriage stashed under our bed. The things I've read say she didn't feel loved. There was little affection. Her apologizing for the affair. Nothing from him to her.

He still hasn't shared a single detail of the trips he has planned with me. He refuses to explain who the naked female was. He had another appt this week at the clinic where the nurse works and didn't tell me about it. I found out from a crumpled up "to do" list in the front seat of the car. I already feel so deceptive for reading his email and seeing if his car was at the counselor's office. This is making me someone that I don't like!


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

If your husband was cheated on in his first marriage, he should know how it feels to be betrayed. Could you use that to help him open his eyes to what he's doing to you now by being secretive? Suggest to him an open, no secret, marriage is one that works best for you?


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## canitrustagain (Jan 16, 2012)

aug said:


> If your husband was cheated on in his first marriage, he should know how it feels to be betrayed. Could you use that to help him open his eyes to what he's doing to you now by being secretive? Suggest to him an open, no secret, marriage is one that works best for you?


I hadn't thought about that. Maybe that would open his eyes to how much it hurts to not know the truth - even if he's not cheating, he's still not being honest. I'm going to talk to my therapist about that next week. Thank you for the suggestion!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

He's cheating.

Reading this made me feel skeezy.

 I'm so sorry he's a liar. "guy trips"? Yea. My arse.


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## smiley_joe (Jan 21, 2012)

canitrustagain said:


> If I may ask, have you been to marriage counseling with your spouse? If so, what has been the result?


She has been going for about a year to work out some things from her childhood. I went to my first session last Monday and going again tomorrow. This may evolve into MC. Wife and I have discussed it but I decided that I need to go to IC first for a bit. 

Before I go too far, I have to confessed that I got the password for her facebook acct and snooped around. I know, sounds unethical to some, but in my case the ends justified the means so to speak. I saw messages to ex boyfreinds that said "Im so fu#$ed, I wan to leave him but I dont know how" and to another she said "That night when I watched you fu$% that girl was the sexiest night in my life". OK fine everyone has a past. I do too, but why the need to re-live now ??

So Im dealing with that, which is really tough. And you are right, it would be a lot easier if there was the one "trigger event" to help in my decision too. Mentally I have already prepared for it. 

In my first session in IC, I gave him all the details of that, and it was clear to him that I need to decide what is best for me. Because up until now I worked on trying to be the person that she wants. We are who we are and I have come to terms with that. My therapy will help im sure of it. As he also told me how common this situation is (electronic communication). Until I see some changes in her behavior, Im not too interested in MC, I need to learn how to deal with her lack of affection and passion towards me. Or find a way out. Not sure what I will do yet but I do know that I am not getting what I need out of our marriage. I would end it long before cheating or doing the same that she has done. I would talk to her first (which I have) and let her know how I feel. No change on her part yet. Waiting waiting waiting. The longer I wait, the less interested I am. Now she is shopping for her own laptop, and has started yet another email account. 

I think we all have to sit with ourselves and decide what our limits are. What we are ok and what we are not ok with. Once the line is crossed, its time to take the next step - Fix it or get out. There are days when I too wish she would just get on with it. Go ahead - cheat. Do it !! That would sure make things a lot easier. Or show me some sign that you understand that this is not ok, just dont waste my time if you are not 100% committed.


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