# Lessons learned from a pro-adultery forum



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I came across a pro-adultery forum several days ago and I have been spending a lot of time reading the threads there lately. It has been a very eye opening experience. 

Let me start by saying you read that right - it is a PRO-adultery forum for WS's and APs to network, share stories and offer each other support and encouragement as well as advice on how to find WS/APs, how to cover their and not get caught (they call it 'OPSEC' which I assume means operational security) and they also commiserate and offer each other support in the loss of their AP's.


In many respects it is the complete antithesis of this forum.

But it has been an eye-opening and interesting journey and I thought I'd share some general tidbits of info that I have picked up on there. As a disclaimer, these are general things that I have noticed from the threads of that forum. I am not saying that this stuff applies to all cheaters. But this is coming directly from the people who are actively involved in A's and from from those actively seeking A's. 

Here are some of the things I have gathered in no particular order - 

- Many of the WS's/AP's report having no guilt or shame and are actively engaged in or seeking affairs. Those people are so frustrated and dissatisfied with their marital sex life that they feel no guilt or shame in seeking it elsewhere.


- Many sincerely believe that having the affair is keeping them in the marriage and that they are much happier and fulfilled as a result of their A and that if they were not in the A, they would likely leave the marriage. They believe the A is the lesser of two evils if having to choose between an A and divorce. 

-Many report feeing alive and desired and attractive again after years of feeling discarded and undesired by their BS. 

- Many are remaining in the M to avoid the expense of D, to continue to get support and child care assistance from the BS and to not split up the children's home. 


-Many have claimed many confrontations and discussions with their marital dissatifactions for years with their BS and many have claimed multiple attempts at MC without success. 


-Many have reported that their A's have in fact been going on for years. 


- The WH's tend to show moreless indifference towards their BW's and seem to think that since she is LD and isn't into sex anyway, then what she doesn't know won't hurt her. 


-The WW's on the other hand have tended to show outright contempt, disdain, outright hostility and utter disrespect for their BH's. Some have even used the word "hate." 


-WW's in particular have indicated remaining in abusive, cold, hostile marriages for financial and childcare reasons. 


Both WWs and WHs report deep mourning and grief over the loss of their APs and the marriage becomes more strained and intolerable after the loss of AP. Many become even more resentful and hostile towards the BS after the loss of an AP. 


- After the loss of an AP (often due to the AP returning to his/her marriage or finding another relationship) the WS often immediately begins to seek another AP. 


-Having multiple APs is common. 


- Both WWs and WHs report the A's as incredibly exciting and some of the best sex they have ever had. 


- Both WWs and WHs report that sex with the AP has reminded them of what they have been missing and makes them want more. Many do not think they will ever be able to go back to a monogamous sex life with BS. 


-MM tend to gravitate towards single OW and want OW to be faithful to them.


-WW tend to gravitate towards MM and are often aware that MM has other APs. 


- WW report their APs as better looking, more fit, more virile and better hung than their BH. 


- WH report their APs as more sexual, uninhibited and more into them than their BW. 


-Both WW and WH report that condoms are rarely used and some of the WWs have actually stated they specifically requested the OM not use a condom and to cum inside them. 


-WWs reported wanting and doing things with OM that they were repulsed by with BH. (ie anal, swallowing, facials etc) 

- WH report OW as more uninhibited and adventurous and willing to do things BWs weren't willing to do. 

- Both WHs and WWs were aware of the potentially catastrophic effects on their marriage that getting caught could have. People on the forum were also pretty clear in their advice that getting caught would likely spell the end of the marriage and that they would be labeled as the bad guy/girl and the adulterer. 

-WSs do consciously cover their tracks and take intentional actions to keep from being caught. 

-they don't call it DARVO in so many words, but DARVO is the go-to response in the BS starts getting suspicious or asking questions. 

- While being aware of the potential consequences of getting caught, most really think that they will be able to cover their tracks indefinitely. 

- Many of these WSs think of this as a lifestyle choice and this is how they live their lives. Some plan on being lifelong adulterers unless they get caught and their BS divorces them. 

-The WSs all seek a mythical unicorn AP that is hot, super sexy, is totally enamored with them, and who has no real life of their own and is available and ready for a booty call at any time of the day or night when the WS gets a free moment. 

-This quest for the mythical unicorn AP leads many down the path of serial affairs and multiple APs. 

-Many knowingly compartmentalize their lives get a variety of their needs met by a variety of people. 

-Pretty much every last one of them justifies their A's to themselves by being happier and more content in their lives by having the A rather than being miserable with only the BS. 


-Some claim their marriages look great from the outside but they are miserable on the inside. Some claim their BS's are good people and good parents and good roommates but totally lack any sexual energy or chemistry. 


-Conversely, some truly hate their spouse and are just staying for the money and the kids and the shame of divorce. 



Those were some of the things I came away with after just a few days of reading threads and posts. I know a lot of it is no news flash. But hearing it coming right from the mouths of the WS's themselves was an eye opening experience.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Sounds about right and likely the truth. Then when they are caught, the story will change completely. More lies and deception. Self-preservation at its finest.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Dishonesty. Some people are just too afraid to be honest with themselves and others. 

We call them cake eaters, cheaters, etc. 

I dont really get it. Losing material things isn't that bad, is it? I mean, i am probably biased because i live without access to almost everything i own for 10+ months out of every year, but damn...

Is it so terrible to lose things and conveniences in order to get out of a bad relationship?

I have no hate for them, but they make no sense to me.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> how to cover their and not get caught (they call it 'OPSEC' which I assume means operational security)


Very interesting. Would you go into more detail about the above? i.e. methods.

Also what is their advice if they get caught? I know that we are well aware of the basics but I would like to hear it in their own words.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Ho’s gotta Ho.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

i have always been untrusting if people that have no hobbies in life, or nothing they seem really interested in doing.

These cheaters place their whole existence in having great sex with their affair partners.
If it were more than just good sex and a good time with no strings attached, they’d divorce and marry their affair partner.

I don’t think they truly LOVE anyone. Likely not even themselves. They don’t know how to be happy. There’s nothing to them but shallowness.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

This is no news to me. Some people are just very good liars and deceivers and have no idea of right or wrong. They turn things around and make themselves the victim therefore it’s not wrong to cheat. My stbxh was like this, he was a sociopath, very charismatic, very fun, very manipulative, always the victim and did nothing wrong. These people twist the truth to make them feel better about what they do, it’s cognitive dissonance, it’s delusional. And there is no talking sense into these people they are sick.


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## MThomas (May 8, 2018)

I would view a cheater as a lazy ass person. People who want the 15% raise but do less work or complains about how they received such a raw deal when they refuse to put in the effort needed to make it happen. They want all the benefits but none of the repercussions.

Everything has an action and an equal and opposite reaction. Cheaters don't get this.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

While I can understand some of the point that oldshirt brought to us, overall it is mind boggling. 

Like @As'laDain said, is the material wealth that important to some people. Evidently it is, I guess.

And like @Evinrude58 says, this must be a hobby for them, ok.

Now I am not angel, I have been cheated on and I have cheated. Of course mine, in my mind, was an exit that I could not make at the time, I thought. Doesn't make it any better I don't think.

But to actively pretend and take advantage of your spouse the way some of these people sound, wow, and I thought I used to be a bad person. Some of that stuff I cannot even fathom. 

But I think the bigger question is staying in a bad relationship, or even worse a bad sexual relationship. 

What does that say about the state of SEX in general in our county, and our relationships. With all of the cheating threads, here and elsewhere, that talk of husbands and wives with almost no understanding or desire about sex or how to have at least good sex. 

I don't think that I am unusual or weird, and I have never stayed in a relationship with no chemistry or where the sex was bad. I value good sex, and it has to be a component of any romantic relationship for me. There has never been any choice about that for me. 

But there seem to be a lot of people that either don't understand that, or it is not important to them, or maybe they don't even like sex. WTF? I don't get some of that. 

I hear about all of these things, I know people that have suffered in these types of relationships, usually finally getting out. But, not before they suffered for a long time. 

I just don't understand a lot of these things, maybe it is not possible for everyone to understand. 

But the way that the people that @oldshirt alludes to, seem to be some strange people that have strange ideas about life, IMHO.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> -Pretty much every last one of them justifies their A's to themselves by being happier and more content in their lives by having the A rather than being miserable with only the BS.


There is a lot of darkness in the human soul. This level of self deception seems staggering, yet is all too common.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Graywolf2 said:


> Very interesting. Would you go into more detail about the above? i.e. methods.
> 
> Also what is their advice if they get caught? I know that we are well aware of the basics but I would like to hear it in their own words.


I came across a thread where people talking about the off-premises storage of affair 'materiel' such as burner phones, cash, sex toys, lingerie, keys and papers for secret apartments etc. 


People had helpful hints of storing these things in rental lockers at the gym, at places of employment and even securing storage units, UPS mailboxes, safe deposit boxes etc. Some suggested disquised handgun safes that look like clocks, picture frames, books and other common household items so they can be secretly hidden in plain sight in the home. 


Some of these people are basically professionals and go to pretty long lengths to maintain their lifestyle.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

I think I know what forum you're talking about. You're either talking about Loveshack or that other place whose name escapes me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Why do you think the women and men who cheat choose the APs you've posted?

How can a man or woman tell if someone is not right for them, doesn't believe in working as one within a marriage, or is simply out for steady sex, a housekeeper and cook or an elevation in social status? Is it possible to know? 

What are they doing that exposes their personal married lives for the sham they are?

In what ways were those men and women compatible before they decided to get married? 

How did they get together and what signs did their BS miss or mistake for commitment and devotion?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

[/QUOTE]

- Both WHs and WWs were aware of the potentially catastrophic effects on their marriage that getting caught could have. People on the forum were also pretty clear in their advice that getting caught would likely spell the end of the marriage and that they would be labeled as the bad guy/girl and the adulterer. 

[/QUOTE]

The majority completely underestimate the catastrophic effects on marriage or impact of divorce. The one thing that I also notice in general terms about forums or discussion's like that is the lack or unwillingness to acknowledge just how much emotional hurt they inflict on the bs if they get caught. They worry about being labeled bad person yet fail to think maybe they deserve for wrecking someone else's life.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> Like @As'laDain said, is the material wealth that important to some people. Evidently it is, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One of the things that caught my eye in reading that forum is there is phrase that the WS's use there as much as the BS's do here and that is - "divorce is NOT an option."The WS's use that mentality as much as the BS's and use it as their excuse to remain in a miserable situation as much as the BS's do. 

They can rent secret apartments, stash hidden cash accounts, spend money on ****** ******* and Tinder, spend money on burner phones and secret wardrobes and hotel rooms etc

….but the thought of divorcing and splitting up furniture is unfathomable to them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I came across a pro-adultery forum several days ago and I have been spending a lot of time reading the threads there lately. It has been a very eye opening experience.
> 
> Let me start by saying you read that right - it is a PRO-adultery forum for WS's and APs to network, share stories and offer each other support and encouragement as well as advice on how to find WS/APs, how to cover their and not get caught (they call it 'OPSEC' which I assume means operational security) and they also commiserate and offer each other support in the loss of their AP's.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I have read that stuff before. It's why I take lots of WS with a grain of salt so to speak. I believe this is really who a lot of WS are. It's their nature. When one is proven to make lying a lifestyle it's very unwise to believe anything they say, even their contrition. The folks who can write that stuff have no shame.

The pro R at any cost people would do well to spend a day or two reading, it would give them a better sense of who they are advising abused people to stay with. It's why I post links to that forum at times. I think lots of people are naive to what they are dealing with. Some folks should just not be married.

If there is a silver lining in that though, it's that once the BS really gets this is who this person is then they realize that there is no value in them as far as a relationship are concerned. Really understanding this makes it much easier to let them go. Then they are just a mistake not some love of their life. I just with everyone could see this. Folks like the people on that board need to be seen like the zombies in the walking dead. Let them stay with their own kind separate because they are dangerous to the rest of the population.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BruceBanner said:


> I think I know what forum you're talking about. You're either talking about Loveshack or that other place whose name escapes me.


Loveshack had a WS/AP subforum but it was not a pro-adultery venue at all. That was mostly people seeking a way out of their affair without blowing everything up and was about APs wondering if the WS was ever going to leave the BS for them. 

This forum is about people who embrace and actively seek and maintain affairs and seek advice and wisdom on how to find APs and keep their APs inline and in the game despite being a side piece, how to not get caught, how to balance their home and family life with their affair(s) as a long term and ongoing lifestyle. 


This place is where WS's network, encourage, support and assist each other in acquiring and maintaining their affairs. 

I don't have any intentions of publicly disclosing this site here as I don't want to encourage or support it in any way and I'm not sure the rules here will allow my to reference it directly. 

a simple google search of "how can I find an affair partner" will probably take you there or to other sites just like it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

People don't usually think they'll end up cheating when they first get married. The marriage deteriorates over time, after a great deal of effort and investment have already been made. Neglect, diminishing sexual activity in quality/quantity, personality flaws that become apparent later, etc., etc. People change, and often not for the better. It's easier to slap a band-aid on the problem, than start from scratch. From that perspective, cheating makes total sense, especially if you've tried and can't fix the problem, and you know you can't be honest about what you want, because you know your partner won't ever agree. Your options are then to throw it all away (maybe losing your kids, too) and start over from scratch, or use the band-aid or pain-killer to make the existing situation tolerable.

What someone decides may depend on their ethics, and their ability to move on using the abilities and assets they possess.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> The pro R at any cost people would do well to spend a day or two reading, it would give them a better sense of who they are advising abused people to stay with. It's why I post links to that forum at times. I think lots of people are naive to what they are dealing with. Some folks should just not be married.


That is right on the money. 

There are many WS that are simply incapable of and have no intentions of ever living a monogamous life. 

Talking about problems and making their partners do anal is not ever going to change their behavior.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Loveshack had a WS/AP subforum but it was not a pro-adultery venue at all. That was mostly people seeking a way out of their affair without blowing everything up and was about APs wondering if the WS was ever going to leave the BS for them.
> 
> This forum is about people who embrace and actively seek and maintain affairs and seek advice and wisdom on how to find APs and keep their APs inline and in the game despite being a side piece, how to not get caught, how to balance their home and family life with their affair(s) as a long term and ongoing lifestyle.
> 
> ...


What exactly led you to this site in the first place?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

[/quote]The majority completely underestimate the catastrophic effects on marriage or impact of divorce. The one thing that I also notice in general terms about forums or discussion's like that is the lack or unwillingness to acknowledge just how much emotional hurt they inflict on the bs if they get caught. They worry about being labeled bad person yet fail to think maybe they deserve for wrecking someone else's life.[/QUOTE]
[/quote]



That's the thing, I really don't think they underestimate it. I got the impression most know full well - they just have game-plans in place for how to deal with it when it happens to mitigate and lessen the negative impact to themselves. 

Many of the posters have been in A's for years and is a lifestyle for them. They know what to say and how to act and what to say to the MC and how to cry crocodile tears and promise to change. 

They do not lack knowledge or insight. 

They lack caring, empathy and the ability and willingness to compromise their own gratification for the comfort and well being of others. 

It's not about knowledge or lack there of. It is about character.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Loveshack had a WS/AP subforum but it was not a pro-adultery venue at all. That was mostly people seeking a way out of their affair without blowing everything up and was about APs wondering if the WS was ever going to leave the BS for them.
> 
> This forum is about people who embrace and actively seek and maintain affairs and seek advice and wisdom on how to find APs and keep their APs inline and in the game despite being a side piece, how to not get caught, how to balance their home and family life with their affair(s) as a long term and ongoing lifestyle.
> 
> ...


It should be advertised everywhere so everyone can go read it and see who these people are. Also maybe someone can figure out who they are and expose them, or people will recognize their evil spouses. I say shine a light on it, let the roaches scurry. The world needs to wake up to what this truly is. 

Imagine a pro physical abuse site, the societal shame of that would make none but true sociopaths want to post on such a place, adultery needs to be treated the same way. I am tired of the Ester Pearl type attitude about this. Adultery needs it's own #MeToo movement.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BruceBanner said:


> What exactly led you to this site in the first place?


I saw it referenced in another forum.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> That's the thing, I really don't think they underestimate it. I got the impression most know full well - they just have game-plans in place for how to deal with it when it happens to mitigate and lessen the negative impact to themselves.
> 
> Many of the posters have been in A's for years and is a lifestyle for them. They know what to say and how to act and what to say to the MC and how to cry crocodile tears and promise to change.
> 
> ...



See, that's what I was taught is evil.... knowing all about it, the consequences, the pain for others, the destruction, etc., and choosing to do those things anyway. At best, it must be some mental illness or deficiency. Even if they are no longer in love and lack respect for that spouse, doesn't respect for humanity and most importantly, themselves, get in the way of choosing the path they did? I guess they hate themselves as much or more than they hate their spouse?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I hope there is a God and I hope there is an accounting. The accounting should be we all have to live the people we caused pain. Hell should be re-living that pain over and over.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Any ideas in how we can spot a cheater (or red flags) prior to marrying them?


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I don't have any intentions of publicly disclosing this site here as I don't want to encourage or support it in any way and I'm not sure the rules here will allow my to reference it directly.
> 
> a simple google search of "how can I find an affair partner" will probably take you there or to other sites just like it.



How the hell did you find this site? 

Is anyone there speaking out against this or do they get banned?


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

Jus260 said:


> How the hell did you find this site?
> 
> Is anyone there speaking out against this or do they get banned?


I assume that's why the site was made in the first place, so that all those people can commiserate with each other and give each other support and encouragement in their 'extracurricular' activities.

I guess in a way, it's like SI. You speak out against or question their beliefs, you get automatically banned. Or if you are allowed to speak, they're so far and deep into this mindset that outside opinion won't have any effect anyway.

It's truly baffling. I get that we're human, we're capable of this once pushed a certain point, or all other options have been exhausted, but to carry out this lifelong deception as a _lifestyle_ of all things is just so mind-boggling.
To continue using their spouses in order to cope with the self-imposed chains that they convinced themselves they'll be forever tethered to their 'miserable' marriages with is fcking unspeakable.

Divorce is not an option? Why not? There have been BSs and even WSs who had to make that hard choice, even if it meant a huge decline in their security and stability as a result, yet they did it, and many have ended up better and happier as a result. Admittedly, some even end up with their APs and are happier as well. So what goes through the minds of these people?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Robert22205 said:


> Any ideas in how we can spot a cheater (or red flags) prior to marrying them?


That's the $64,000 question!

For me I won't get involved with someone who has cheated in the past. But finding out about it could be tricky. You can't just put it in your dating profile "no cheaters" because then they'll know to deny it. I also won't stay with someone who's been in an open marriage. I dated a woman whose marriage was briefly open (and I suspect it actually was for a long time after that). While I don't judge her marriage, I do judge that she is ok with non-monogamy, and that is not what I am looking for. These kinds of things are higher risk of them being a cheater in the future, so I won't take the chance.

I also look for unnecessary contact with previous spouses or lovers. This indicates weak boundaries. The most likely AP is a former lover, so why take that chance? A person with certain histories is higher risk, such as substance abuse, being a sex worker, starting sexual activity at an unusually young age, and unresolved traumas.

Someone who has good communication skills and can deal with normal relationship conflicts is a lower risk.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I had a husband like the ones on that site. I bought his lies and promises for decades. He's the reason I am not pro-R.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Jus260 said:


> How the hell did you find this site?
> 
> Is anyone there speaking out against this or do they get banned?


I was a serial wayward when married, the stuff the OP posted is very accurate. I just don't think many people on here realize how prevalent this lifestyle is, and I think a lot of times a BS has zero idea they are dealing with a lifestyle instead of a one time occurrence. The OP's post barely scratched the surface. There are multiple forums for cheaters, I know of at least 3 forums, and then of course there are married dating sites like A$hley [email protected]$on. The public really misunderstood how easy that site made cheating. It was portrayed in the media as handful of women for hundreds of thousands of men, but that wasn't true at all. It was very easy to meet married women who wanted to hook up on that site, and yes people are still using it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It probably comes down to perceived risk/reward. The rewards come up front, with the risks/consequences _maybe_ in the future.

My ex cheated, but I can still understand the trade-offs that go into choosing to cheat, and the motivations (a.k.a. marital problems) that may make it easier.


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

I joined to a forum like that years ago. It was a very famous one. I let them know that I am a betrayed husband, I am coming from Talk about marriage forum and I am using the same nick in both forums. I was there to get their insights about what I am going through.

I never had an argument, I had some advice and some private messages. If I remember correctly I was banned before I leave. I don't think that any member complained about me but admins probably thought that I was killing the fun there. I was there for a couple of questions anyways. 

That site closed soon after issuing a well publicized apology.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

My marriage of 46 years has only been monogamous for the last 8 years. Yet we are both very happy and madly in love. While we did not cheat since there was no rule against sex with others, we did play with others and even shared the same girlfriend for most of our marriage. A lot of what you read is true. It has been reported many times that a spouse having an affair will usually be more happy and that will spill over into his marriage. I have dated women whose husbands chose to look the other way and they have great marriages with me providing the wife with what the husband cannot, and we are not just talking sexually here.

We started off like everyone else believing in monogamy with no alternative ever given. Your choices if unhappy were to cheat or first destroy all that you built with your spouse before moving on to another person. Both choices suck. My wife did something few wives would do. She could not fulfill certain needs of mine even if she was willing and the same for her. She learned that the love she had for her lifelong girlfriend was more than friendship love. She wanted more than that. I do not have a vagina so I could not fulfill that need. I came out of private schools for gifted students and my wife went to a trade high school. I needed someone I could discuss more than TV celebrities with and enjoyed some of the same sexual fetishes as I did.. My wife arranged it so that she got her girlfriend and so did I. Her girlfriend also is bi but she holds two Masters Degrees and provided me with the intellectual stimulation I needed and was into my fetish more than I was. My wife and I both got what we needed to be happier than we were and our girlfriend got the love of a family that she lacked from her own family where affection was never displayed. Her parents never told her that they loved her. When I told her that I loved her she cried for 5 minutes. She was not used to hearing it.

We also wife swapped so that others got to enjoy sexual pleasure with someone other than their spouse who already knew what buttons to press and in what order. It was a chance to be pleasured in new ways and we are genetically designed to enjoy sex with new partners more than with our old one. Yes, sex with a spouse is enjoyable and nice but sex with a stranger is like the difference between comfort food and fine dining with things you never tasted before. It allows us all to explore our sexual needs without risking our marriage. Our marriage and each other always came first. I had an affair with my wife's knowledge once but when she became unhappy with it, I broke it off. She always came first.

When our girlfriend got married years into our relationship she found a guy who was OK with her affair with both me and my wife. He said he reaped the benefits of a happy wife who treated him great because of the freedom he gave her. It takes all kinds. My wife and I did not go looking for other sex partners or lovers but if something happened it was not a deal killer as long as it was the exception and not the rule. 

We are married 46 years and have had a fantastic personal and married life. Very little drama and out of all of our friends and siblings, we are the only ones who never divorced or separated. Our marriage has been great as is the marriage of our girlfriend while those around us still clinging to monogamy went down on the monogamy ship rather than seek the safety of a different kind of ship.

I am not pushing non monogamous as it is harder than monogamy. You need to address issues of jealousy, fear of loss and insecurity. What if his penis is bigger than mine and can last all night. What if she lets him do things that I do not. What if they fall in love and he or she leaves me. You need a lot of self confidence and the realization that monogamy or not, if she is going to leave you, she will. If monogamy works for you that is really great. It is less stressful and no logistics problem of allocating your time to more than one person. No trying to make all partners feel equally loved. Monogamy, when it works is so good but out divorce and cheating rates do not seem to point to it working well very often.

To us it was always about knowing that we chose each other to live out our lives with. Others came and went as our needs changed or were fulfilled. We also learned that you can love others just like you love all of your family and not just one. Loving someone else does not mean you do not love your wife or find her less desirable. She is still your primary love and the one if you could only save one, would be the one. You would be surprised at how many spouses rather look the other way than face divorce, especially when things at home are not affected by the affair. 

I used to be overseas 3 months of the year. Surprisingly I never had sex with anyone while there even though I could. That is what I mean about not going out looking for it and just knowing I could took the taboo and excitement of cheating away from it so it was not something that I was interested in. However many of my co-workers and every boss I had in 48 years, male and female, cheated when I was on business trips with them. Yet their wives swore that their mates would never cheat to my wife and others who knew better. One day a co-worker asked me how did I know that my wife was not cheating on me when I was away. After all I never asked. What I replied was that even if she had sex twice a day with different guys every day I was gone, it has not caused even a ripple in our love and marriage so what does it matter? Most still think we own our spouses and you can find it in the language we use like she belongs with me, she is mine, he is my man, etc.. We do not feel that we own each other's sexual pleasure no more than each other's taste and hearing pleasure. We have been taught that sex is more than it really is and place too much importance on it. Our response to cheating is emotional and arises from fear of loss and feeling insecure. 

I have seen how much happier a marriage can be when one is having an affair. The woman is now taking more pride in her appearance. She is having more sex with her husband out of guilt or just to keep feeling the love she has for him. She is no longer being taken for granted. She is being told how pretty she is and going out on dates again wearing clothes that draws the attention of other guys. Most of all, she (and same goes for guys) is in a relationship that does not involve all the boring, argument producing and mundane things that go into a marriage. She is with a man experiencing courtship love and does not care if he is not neat or likes video games. All she knows is that he makes her feel like the most desirable woman on earth and sex is passionate once again and raw. It is not routine like it is at home. There are still a lot of men out there that feel sex is about their orgasm and once they have it, sex is over. Look at what DJ Khaled said and was reported in the news. He feels that it is a woman's duty to perform oral on a man but a man should not perform oral on a woman. When you look at various forms of marriages, do not assume that they feel and think as you do. 


There is more than one way to have a happy marriage and we found one that worked for us and allowed my wife to explore her bisexuality and my needs too. What is the harm? We did not break up our home, split our kids and learn to hate each other like that of our friends. We found a way to have a great life and marriage with never any jealousy and lots of love for all. Why is that wrong?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> ...a simple google search of "how can I find an affair partner" will probably take you there or to other sites just like it.


 Yeah, and get my my ASS kicked by my husband when he sees* that *in my browser history.

Actually, Loveshack DOES have a 'pro' affair board called "Other Woman/Other Man" and they actively support each other and encourage each other to waste their lives growing old, just waiting for lover boy to leave his fat, sexless hag of a wife. I don't know what forum you were referring to on Loveshack where those in affairs are actively seeking to get out of them, but it sure ain't the OW/OM board I'm talking about.

May I assume this adultery forum starts with an "R?"


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

sokillme said:


> The pro R at any cost people would do well to spend a day or two reading, it would give them a better sense of who they are advising abused people to stay with.


It should be *required reading* for the eternally deluded over on SI who all believe their cheaters when he tells them how 'bad' the sex was with the OW and how he'll _never_ cheat again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

honcho said:


> The majority completely underestimate the catastrophic effects on marriage or impact of divorce. The one thing that I also notice in general terms about forums or discussion's like that is the lack or unwillingness to acknowledge just how much emotional hurt they inflict on the bs if they get caught. They worry about being labeled bad person yet fail to think maybe they deserve for wrecking someone else's life.


You really don't understand the nature of these people. That is not an insult, you see this a lot. It's hard to face the fact that there are people like this in the world, but there are. They know exactly how much pain they are going to cause they just don't care. Yes there are evil people in the world who know full well that they are destroying others so they can experience pleasure. Others, even their spouses just doesn't matter to them. They are not afraid to be honest with themselves or lazy, they are just evil. One of the biggest mistakes anyone can make is to not see these folks for who they are. It's why they are so dangerous. Stay far away from them.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

sokillme said:


> You really don't understand the nature of these people. That is not an insult, you see this a lot. It's hard to face the fact that there are people like this in the world, but there are. They know exactly how much pain they are going to cause they just don't care. Yes there are evil people in the world who know full well that they are destroying others so they can experience pleasure. Others, even their spouses just doesn't matter to them. They are not afraid to be honest with themselves or lazy, they are just evil. One of the biggest mistakes anyone can make is to not see these folks for who they are. It's why they are so dangerous. Stay far away from them.


Spot on...There are multiple threads on here that start out as a question "Why do cheaters.....etc., etc.". The responses from people who aren't cheaters don't make sense to me. When I read these threads I realize that a lot of the people on here really don't get it at all. They make the assumption that cheaters actually view their behavior as wrong. A lot of them don't.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

For some people it's really important to be perceived as "winning at life." They're the super volunteers at school, super dad, super mom, healthy, fit, rich, beautiful smart kids, really involved in church/religion, big house, nice cars. I grew up attending private schools and my daughter is in one now. I see this a lot. Perfect people on the outside who have it all and are winning. It would be devastating for them to get a divorce and live in an apartment bachelor pad. They would consider that losing. So I can definitely see how some would take on serial hidden cheating so they can maintain their beautiful life and image. Shallow, selfish and narcissistic.

There's a power couple at my daughter's school. They literally volunteer for everything, front and center for every event. Their kids are signed up for everything. Same thing at church, Knights of Columbus, etc. A couple years ago the husband got very fit and muscled, and the wife is not. He's VERY flirty with all the women and women fawn all over him because he's such a great dad. Maybe it's my paranoia but I got the vibe that he was trying to pick up women, so I don't ever talk to him alone. I didn't like the feeling I had around him. A family like that who has their entire image and life on display as being perfect, would be totally devastated if they divorced because of adultery. It just couldn't happen, I think both of them would say divorce is not an option no matter what.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

If it's the same forum I'm thinking about then I agree with everything you posted @oldshirt. 

What I found most interesting is that for as much as they support the WS's affair, they are very pragmatic and unsupportive when a WS gets caught. They take the "you knew the risks, suck it up buttercup" attitude. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

It's always good to know your enemy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> It's always good to know your enemy.


Not to stay married to them though.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Some people are players and want more than one relationship. Sex works at home and with the affair partner

Some people want one relationship and that relationship works mostly good to OK.

Some people want one relationship but the one they are in doesn't work in some areas.

I read 3 forums where the sexual, feeling connected to the spouse doesn't work, or the couple had been in MC and nothing changes, This last group is where I found information about why SOME people have affairs. Here is one such site.
Forum | ILIASM Forum

Before the site went down, I read 5 years worth of posts on a philanders forum. At first I thought the posters were selfish or low class. Some were and some were in "bad to them" relationships and there wasn't enough $$ to operate 2 households, among other real issues.

Even on TAM you read about relationships that are not even close to decent and the relationship is just 2 people sharing living space. for the most part TAN posters say get divorced. well some people see divorce as the last worst resort. I am older than most posters and when I was young, only bad/disfunctional people got a divorce.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

I think for some people, sex isn't exciting if there isn't something underhanded about it. Adultery is pretty appealing to them.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Spot on...There are multiple threads on here that start out as a question "Why do cheaters.....etc., etc.". The responses from people who aren't cheaters don't make sense to me. When I read these threads I realize that a lot of the people on here really don't get it at all. They make the assumption that cheaters actually view their behavior as wrong. A lot of them don't.


I'd like to add to this - even the ones in "R" who have had a LTA or were serial cheaters do they really get it? Are they playing along with their BS to keep their lives from blowing up? Some might but I'm cynical that most do or would put in the work to get it or change.

On the flip side what about a BS who stays in such a situation? Rs with a LD spouse, a spouse that betrayed them in the worst ways possible or one that deep down views them as plan b but the BS still twists themselves into a pretzel to not leave? 

To be clear I'm sure true R can happen but I wonder how often it does.

I think there is a lot of brokenness on both sides of the equation.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Actually, Loveshack DOES have a 'pro' affair board called "Other Woman/Other Man" and they actively support each other and encourage each other to waste their lives growing old, just waiting for lover boy to leave his fat, sexless hag of a wife. I don't know what forum you were referring to on Loveshack where those in affairs are actively seeking to get out of them, but it sure ain't the OW/OM board I'm talking about.


I am familiar with the OW/OM forum on Loveshack but I would not call that a pro-adultery forum at all. 

Yes, OM/OW/WS's do post there but they are quickly chastised and urged to end the A by throngs of monogamists/traditionalists. 

Occasionally a fellow AP may say something like "I was in a similar situation" or such, but I don't know if I ever an A actively supported and the WS/AP being advised on pull the wool over the BS's eyes or how to cover their tracks and remove all of their electronic footprints and where to hide a burner phone etc etc. 

It is very rare that the A is supported and encouraged and advice given on how to maintain the A and keep it going on Loveshack. APs and WSs were no more supported and validated on Loveshack than they are here.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> Spot on...There are multiple threads on here that start out as a question "Why do cheaters.....etc., etc.". The responses from people who aren't cheaters don't make sense to me. When I read these threads I realize that a lot of the people on here really don't get it at all. They make the assumption that cheaters actually view their behavior as wrong. A lot of them don't.


It's hard for genuinely good people to understand the mind of a bad person. 

All of us tend to think that others think, feel and act in generally the same manner that we do. 

That goes both ways. That is why the cheaters themselves are often some of the most suspicious and jealous and controlling people out there.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> It's hard for genuinely good people to understand the mind of a bad person.
> 
> All of us tend to think that others think, feel and act in generally the same manner that we do.
> 
> That goes both ways. That is why the cheaters themselves are often some of the most suspicious and jealous and controlling people out there.


That's why there is so much anguish in the BS, and all the questions why did they do it, and what's wrong with me that they did it. But once the BS blows away the bs and sees the WS for what they really are it all fits together. While we can't ever think the way the other person does, when we can understand the ground rules and logic they apply we can then deal with the fallout effectively.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

A site where you discover people are truly ****ty, I'm shocked!

There's no amount of reading up on these forums that can turn you into some kind of expert.

A red flag is a red flag. Trust is trust. If your spouse says she/he are out knitting with the girls/boys and they are allergic to wool and you trust them then that's that.

We roll these dice selecting the people we choose. Whether they stab you in the gut down the road is something you can't mitigate if they hide it well. And if they don't and you choose not to leave then that is on you.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I am familiar with the OW/OM forum on Loveshack but I would not call that a pro-adultery forum at all.
> 
> Yes, OM/OW/WS's do post there but they are quickly chastised and urged to end the A by throngs of monogamists/traditionalists.
> 
> ...


The *purpose* of the OW/OM board is for those in affairs to be able to share their stories and yes to encourage each other and to support one another. That's the INTENT of that board.

But like you said, the board is constantly over-run with those who are against affairs and post in that vein. But that's not the *intention* of the board and their little power-hungry moderator, William the gnome, is constantly slapping hands and giving out infractions to those who over-step.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> The *purpose* of the OW/OM board is for those in affairs to be able to share their stories and yes to encourage each other and to support one another. That's the INTENT of that board.
> 
> But like you said, the board is constantly over-run with those who are against affairs and post in that vein. But that's not the *intention* of the board and their little power-hungry moderator, William the gnome, is constantly slapping hands and giving out infractions to those who over-step.


That may be. But I do not consider anything about loveshack to be pro-adultery.

The site I am talking about bills itself as pro-adultery and will remove any negative posts.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Robert22205 said:


> Any ideas in how we can spot a cheater (or red flags) prior to marrying them?


I think you can't completely. I will say though, learn about yourself. Learn to have confidence in yourself and in you ability to be happy without anyone. That gives you a position of strength to make decisions. Date for longer then a year and wait until the potential partner is in adult state of life. Meaning emotionally and financially. Finally watch how that react in small things that don't have much impact. Do they do the right thing when it would be easier not to and no one would ever know? The safest people are the people who do the right thing because they want to be that way not because they are afraid, because they feel they have to be, or even because it makes them look good. They do the right thing because it's the right thing and they don't want to be any other way. Black and white thinking on this kind of thing is good as well. 

Finally when you do get married nurture your marriage and your spouse. Be willing to serve them when reasonable. Understand that you job is to provide from them. But also understand that this is a gift, and if they don't want it you can find someone who will. Again strength to say this is not good enough. In the end though I think the safest thing you can do is to understand that even if you are cheated on you can get over it and have a happy life still. At least that is how I see it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thor said:


> That's why there is so much anguish in the BS, and all the questions why did they do it, and what's wrong with me that they did it. But once the BS blows away the bs and sees the WS for what they really are it all fits together. While we can't ever think the way the other person does, when we can understand the ground rules and logic they apply we can then deal with the fallout effectively.


Once you get that though it really removes the feeling of losing anything of true worth. It was never going to be what you thought it was. This is where true healing happens, and why I really wish it was emphasized. It's the moment where you go, "so now it all makes sense, why it just didn't work". Followed by, "Well if the problem wasn't me then maybe there is someone out there where it will work?!" If you truly get that you will heal 100%. 

Such a better thing to strive for then trying to force yourself to stay in a broken marriage with a broken person. IMHO.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> -MM tend to gravitate towards single OW and want OW to be faithful to them.
> 
> 
> -WW tend to gravitate towards MM and are often aware that MM has other APs.


I don't see how there could be any big discrepancy. If half of the posters are WWs, and x% of WWs have a married AP, then x% of the WHs should have a married AP. Otherwise, where are the WW's APs coming from?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

SpinyNorman said:


> I don't see how there could be any big discrepancy. If half of the posters are WWs, and x% of WWs have a married AP, then x% of the WHs should have a married AP. Otherwise, where are the WW's APs coming from?


In my opinion the OP's thread actually refers to serial cheater behavior. Only female serials frequent the forum he is talking about. I'd agree with that theory for that subset of cheater. Women serial cheaters use websites to find an AP, or they groom/seduce a married male in their circle of acquaintances, or just hook up with a married guy that hits on them. They pick married men because both parties have just as much to lose. When it comes to female serial cheaters you might as well throw out the TAM handbook. Its not for compliments and attention, its honestly about sex and passion. They also NEVER affair down, always up in level of attractiveness, because they know their value and are pretty picky. Its much easier for women to find an AP than a man.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I came across a pro-adultery forum several days ago and I have been spending a lot of time reading the threads there lately. It has been a very eye opening experience.
> 
> Let me start by saying you read that right - it is a PRO-adultery forum for WS's and APs to network, share stories and offer each other support and encouragement as well as advice on how to find WS/APs, how to cover their and not get caught (they call it 'OPSEC' which I assume means operational security) and they also commiserate and offer each other support in the loss of their AP's.
> 
> ...


IN what ways was it eye opening? I think most of us know already that people will come up with any excuse to cheat if they want to. I think that I would vomit if I read any of their posts, basically they have no moral values or integrity.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> In my opinion the OP's thread actually refers to serial cheater behavior. Only female serials frequent the forum he is talking about. I'd agree with that theory for that subset of cheater. Women serial cheaters use websites to find an AP, or they groom/seduce a married male in their circle of acquaintances, or just hook up with a married guy that hits on them. They pick married men because both parties have just as much to lose. When it comes to female serial cheaters you might as well throw out the TAM handbook. Its not for compliments and attention, its honestly about sex and passion. They also NEVER affair down, always up in level of attractiveness, because they know their value and are pretty picky. Its much easier for women to find an AP than a man.


I despise people who deliberately go looking for someone who is married. Its just sick.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> I was a serial wayward when married, the stuff the OP posted is very accurate. I just don't think many people on here realize how prevalent this lifestyle is, and I think a lot of times a BS has zero idea they are dealing with a lifestyle instead of a one time occurrence. The OP's post barely scratched the surface. There are multiple forums for cheaters, I know of at least 3 forums, and then of course there are married dating sites like A$hley [email protected]$on. The public really misunderstood how easy that site made cheating. It was portrayed in the media as handful of women for hundreds of thousands of men, but that wasn't true at all. It was very easy to meet married women who wanted to hook up on that site, and yes people are still using it.


....and we were supposed to feel sorry for those on A$hley Maddison when they were all exposed. I was pleased that their spouses found out the sort of people they were married to.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Robert22205 said:


> Any ideas in how we can spot a cheater (or red flags) prior to marrying them?


What sort of moral values do they have. Have their ever cheated on a partner before? Had more than one partner at a time? What do those who know them say? Do they flirt a lot? What are their views on faithfulness, marriage etc. Have they got a good character and integrity? How do they treat others? What are their parents like? Often children will learn their values from their parents.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

So this site you're talking about is worse than loveshack's OW/M section? Wow. That's scary. 

I find that section of LS, to be very protective of the delicate sensibilities of WWs. On that section they all aspire to be dual home wreckers. The few who have successfully destroyed 2 families are like royalty.

But it's a goldmine for a look into the dark heart of a WWs. I recommend that BHs go there to read a dozen or so threads. Eventually you'll see that the tears or remorse you think you see, are very likely not real and realize that it's rarely worth trying to R.

As for the WHs who post their stories, they sounds so feminized. Hearing a man post about missing a woman he really doesn't even know, all the while stabbing the mother of his kids in the back just make me sick.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> In my opinion the OP's thread actually refers to serial cheater behavior. Only female serials frequent the forum he is talking about. I'd agree with that theory for that subset of cheater. Women serial cheaters use websites to find an AP, or they groom/seduce a married male in their circle of acquaintances, or just hook up with a married guy that hits on them. They pick married men because both parties have just as much to lose. When it comes to female serial cheaters you might as well throw out the TAM handbook. Its not for compliments and attention, its honestly about sex and passion. They also NEVER affair down, always up in level of attractiveness, because they know their value and are pretty picky. Its much easier for women to find an AP than a man.


My question is about numbers. If most of the women cheat w/ married men, then those men are cheaters, so why aren't their numbers reflected on the site? Or is the site not representative of the cheating population?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@oldshirt that is an interesting discovery. Sounds similar to the old Doc C. Site which he closed down when he realised how sick and nasty some of the members were.

The people who use the site you found are special in that they did not accidentally find themselves in an affair, they consciously went out of their way to cheat and are deliberately seeking out support to continue in their cheating.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

SpinyNorman said:


> My question is about numbers. If most of the women cheat w/ married men, then those men are cheaters, so why aren't their numbers reflected on the site? Or is the site not representative of the cheating population?


The site is representative of a subset of the cheating population. The hardcore adulterers. Basically people who treat cheating as a lifestyle. Its for people who are addicted to having affairs. So its not really representative for all cheaters IMO. Only the worst of the worst. Think of it as the polar opposite of TAM CWI. Instead of an evidence thread, there would be threads on how not to get caught. Threads gloating about how their spouse has no clue, etc. etc. Many leave their spouse and are never caught.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Gross. Sounds like an aduktery version of NAMBLA.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

As western culture becomes more and more decadent as we reach the end, it's no longer considered socially acceptable to call someone "good" or "bad". Everything is a shade of gray and there are those that will try to convince you that everything is gray. There is no black and white, good and bad. Personally I say that's a HUGE load of bullsh*t! There absolutely is good and bad and these cheating people you're posting about are bad people. THEY. ARE. BAD. PEOPLE. You can't do what they do and find a shade of gray. They're just bad. I've spent years in the divorce business and I've seen the fallout from adultery in marriage. It ain't pretty. A lot of these people are like war veterans that have been in one too many battles. It literally changes them permanently and not for the better. It's a devastating thing to do to a person you took a vow not to betray and if you do that you're a bad person.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Yep. This whole "truth and good/bad are fluid" crap is going to destroy us.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I will say there is no black and white except at the extremes. There are only shades of gray. Black/white thinking is only for those who are too intellectually and morally lazy or incompetent to make finer distinctions. _No one_ is all good, or all bad.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

SpinyNorman said:


> My question is about numbers. If most of the women cheat w/ married men, then those men are cheaters, so why aren't their numbers reflected on the site? Or is the site not representative of the cheating population?


This was not a statistical breakdown or analysis of a cross section of all cheaters.

This was simply a very general trend I noticed in the individual postings of some people that posted in a pro-adultery forum.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> IN what ways was it eye opening? I think most of us know already that people will come up with any excuse to cheat if they want to. I think that I would vomit if I read any of their posts, basically they have no moral values or integrity.


In the past I was on a couple swinger forums for a number of years. ( a community that actually looks down on cheating more than TAM believe it or not)

Then I was on Loveshack for a few years.

And now I have been on TAM for a year or so.

I was even on MMSL for a little while before getting banned for being a nonmonogamist.

In all of those sites adultery is highly looked down upon and any cheaters that post are usually regretful of the chaos and harm they have caused (even if only sorry they got caught) and they are usually asking how to lessen the damage and get back with BS.

Additionally, on those sites the other posters usually come down on them like a pack of starving wolves and chew them to shreds on their behavior.

What was striking about this forum is cheating is embraced and supported and people help each other and advise each other on how to acquire APs and how to keep the AP from backing out since they are a side piece as well as lots if helpful hints and advice on how to not get caught and how to mitigate the damage and continue both the marriage and the A if they are caught.

I can't say I have come across much that I did not already know. But it was striking to me that there is a community of completely recalcitrant and unapologetic cheaters that embrace and support infidelity as a lifestyle choice.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

jsmart said:


> So this site you're talking about is worse than loveshack's OW/M section? Wow. That's scary.
> 
> I find that section of LS, to be very protective of the delicate sensibilities of WWs. On that section they all aspire to be dual home wreckers. The few who have successfully destroyed 2 families are like royalty.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that there are a few way wards on OW/OM LS that are somewhat as devious as the site in question. But overall, on LS they are not as morally bankrupt as the active cheater site. 

But usually, most of the way wards understand what they have done, for the most part not completely, and they are looking for a way out. 

The cheaters site is a level that I never thought existed. For me, I can understand without condoning some cheating. 

But the stuff we are talking about is on some other level. It seems like it is cheating just to be cheating. 

I am not sure that I would ever be able to wrap my head around it...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*To basically just stay away from them ~ because with rare exception, can they ever do anybody any good!*


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I can't say I have come across much that I did not already know. .


The one thing that did suprise me was to find out that the cheating hook up site A------ M----- is still alive and well and MM are making hook ups on it.

The media was reporting AM has essentially no real women but that is apparently not the case and that WW are using it and are continuing to use now despite the security breach a while ago.

Tinder is also a very common venue for WS/APs to find each other.

If you find Tinder on your partner's phone; that is your smoking gun.


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## Kamstel (Apr 25, 2018)

I never imagined such a forum could possibly exist, but looked and quickly found a sub group on red it. There are some truly despicable people in this world. After reading just a few I was sick! It definitely triggered!!!


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> I will say there is no black and white except at the extremes. There are only shades of gray. Black/white thinking is only for those who are too intellectually and morally lazy or incompetent to make finer distinctions. _No one_ is all good, or all bad.


I agree with you at least 50%.

No one is all bad or all good, but there is good and bad. Everyone is a mixture of these.
However, I believe there are moral absolutes.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> I will say there is no black and white except at the extremes. There are only shades of gray. Black/white thinking is only for those who are too intellectually and morally lazy or incompetent to make finer distinctions. _No one_ is all good, or all bad.


Well aren't you the intellectual.

No one is all good or bad, of course. No one said that either.

But adultery? Yeah....it's bad. Betraying your partner so intimately is not "gray," it's bad.

There ARE still absolutes.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

What is this forum, I am interested in reading more.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> I agree with you at least 50%.
> 
> No one is all bad or all good, but there is good and bad. Everyone is a mixture of these.
> However, I believe there are moral absolutes.


And I agree with you about 50%. What would be an example of a moral absolute, for you? Even something such as "Do not kill" has a wide variety of exceptions, so anything of lesser import would probably have even more exceptions or special circumstances.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Well aren't you the intellectual.
> 
> No one is all good or bad, of course. No one said that either.
> 
> ...


Yes, definitely it's bad, but even so, under just about every moral philosophy there are justifiable exceptions. There are few - and perhaps no -absolutes.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> And I agree with you about 50%. What would be an example of a moral absolute, for you? Even something such as "Do not kill" has a wide variety of exceptions, so anything of lesser import would probably have even more exceptions or special circumstances.


Do not commit adultery would be one of mine. 
I don't think that do not kill has many exceptions, maybe if you or your family were being attacked for example it may be excusable. Or if your country was invaded.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, definitely it's bad, but even so, under just about every moral philosophy there are justifiable exceptions. There are few - and perhaps no -absolutes.


I see no justification for cheating.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Married but Happy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, definitely it's bad, but even so, under just about every moral philosophy there are justifiable exceptions. There are few - and perhaps no -absolutes.
> ...


That's because there's not one. It's just a psuedo-intellectual open-minded sound byte. Kind of like "tolerance," which we all know only applies if I agree with X


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> That's because there's not one. It's just a psuedo-intellectual open-minded sound byte. Kind of like "tolerance," which we all know only applies if I agree with X


For the sake of argument, what is your basis for saying there is no justification? Can you support your position?


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## Kamstel (Apr 25, 2018)

No, Florida is a No Fault State


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## Kamstel (Apr 25, 2018)

I don’t mean to threadjack, and I will apologize now for doing so...

Person of Interest, you remind me so much of a person on SI with the username of Greeneyesbluezy (or something like that). Are you her?


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## Hexagon (Jun 20, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> -The WW's on the other hand have tended to show outright contempt, disdain, outright hostility and utter disrespect for their BH's. Some have even used the word "hate."
> 
> 
> -WW's in particular have indicated remaining in abusive, cold, hostile marriages for financial and childcare reasons.


This. There are some things I do and also don't understand about this. I don't, no matter how hard I try, cannot fathom why they are so incredibly hostile towards their husbands.
The other I do get. Of course its easy to gain acceptance if they claim that the husband is abusive. Mine did this. I wasn't abusive, I worshipped the ground she walked on. But as far as the hate, the reasons escape me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Hexagon said:


> This. There are some things I do and also don't understand about this. I don't, no matter how hard I try, cannot fathom why they are so incredibly hostile towards their husbands.
> The other I do get. Of course its easy to gain acceptance if they claim that the husband is abusive. Mine did this. I wasn't abusive, I worshipped the ground she walked on. But as far as the hate, the reasons escape me.


My personal opinion is that a lot of the contempt and bitterness come from the affair itself. 

WWs themselves would like you to believe that their BH's are abusive and controlling and indifferent before the A started and that is their justification to cheat.

However I think the more common reality is much of the outright contempt and disdain is actually one of the results of the A.

When they get flooded with all the horny and feel-good hormones for the AP, they begin to delelop greater and greater amounts of contempt, disrespect and hostility towards the BH. 

In their subconscious mind, they rewrite history and believe their relationship with the BH was a mistake and now the BH is what is standing in her way of all the fun and excitement of being with the OM(s).

In her mind, the BH becomes her jail warden, her tormentor and her enemy. 

In reality the BH may have been a perfectly normal, decent guy and the marriage may have been perfectly normal and healthy before she got involved with the AP.

The affair is the toxin. The affair is what poisons the marriage and what causes the marital problems a lot of times.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> My personal opinion is that a lot of the contempt and bitterness come from the affair itself.
> 
> WWs themselves would like you to believe that their BH's are abusive and controlling and indifferent before the A started and that is their justification to cheat.
> 
> ...


There's an excellent but hugely overpriced e-book called Women's Infidelity. There's also a 2nd volume to it. The author interviewed many WWs and wrote about their mindset. One thing I remember is she discussed this contempt towards the BH, and in many cases it is because the poor schmuck hasn't caught on to her cheating. She sees him as a stupid loser for not figuring out that his wife is out getting banged (usually without condoms), and she knows it is the ultimate insult to the male ego. Therefore he loses her respect.

I'm sure the rest of your description is also in play, where the WW has to comfort herself that she's not really a bad person because there is some good justification for cheating. Her BH being abusive or otherwise rewriting history helps her suppress any guilt she might feel.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I wonder if the contempt for the BH mostly comes later, but the impetus/motivation for the affair was due to lack of attention, lack of appreciation, and/or lack of sexual satisfaction. The affair may start in response to not getting needs met, and contempt comes from that _plus_ him not catching on.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

While this is factually correct, it is not really important in day-to-day living. 

All it takes is certain types of evil acts for me to judge a person as unfit to be anywhere in my life.

That makes a person bad, IMO, and I will live accordingly, just as I expect you will judge based on what is important to you.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Kamstel said:


> I don’t mean to threadjack, and I will apologize now for doing so...
> 
> Person of Interest, you remind me so much of a person on SI with the username of Greeneyesbluezy (or something like that). Are you her?


That's not me, though I have read around at SI. I never joined though.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > That's because there's not one. It's just a psuedo-intellectual open-minded sound byte. Kind of like "tolerance," which we all know only applies if I agree with X
> ...


Simply, for me, I want my choices to be based on my character, not dependent on others' behavior. I believe the rightness or wrongness of some thing are NOT dependent on the circumstances. 

To say, for example, that cheating is okay if my husband neglects me implies I can do something wrong if someone else does something wrong first.

I think that is a weak,reactionary, powerless way to live. And where does that end? If my ten year old gives me lip, can I beat him? If the store owner is rude and I'm hungry, is it okay for me to steal from him.

Situational ethics are shaky at best and cowardly at worst, IMO.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> And I agree with you about 50%. What would be an example of a moral absolute, for you? Even something such as "Do not kill" has a wide variety of exceptions, so anything of lesser import would probably have even more exceptions or special circumstances.


Do not kill is still an absolute. It's the killing of a creature or person. Death is bad is an absolute.
In a highly imperfect world do we necessarily need to sometimes do a bad thing? Do I need to kill in war or for self defence? Yes, sometimes, but that does not change that killing is the lessor of evils.

In the perfect world for which we hope and strive, there will be no killing. Now some might say that negates the absolute. I say it doesn't, because the death of a being is always a tradgedy. And therefore death is always absolutely bad even if the alternative might be even worse.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Simply, for me, I want my choices to be based on my character, not dependent on others' behavior. I believe the rightness or wrongness of some thing are NOT dependent on the circumstances.
> 
> To say, for example, that cheating is okay if my husband neglects me implies I can do something wrong if someone else does something wrong first.
> 
> ...


If someone tries to kill you, can you kill them first? Can't get more situational than that, IMO. That's not powerless. If your children are starving, would you not steal to feed them if you could not find a job or charity? That's situational, too. The coward would let themselves be killed, and let their children die?

I do agree that personal ethics matter greatly, and I would choose not to cheat (I've made that choice despite motivation and opportunity, because I value my integrity). Choices can be difficult to make when the situation is complex. There are often better solutions, but not everyone can come up with them at the time, in their situation.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> And therefore death is always absolutely bad even if the alternative might be even worse.


Death is inevitable, for all living creatures. Death is good - part of the cycle of life, etc. How, when, and why may be bad. And I would feel bad even if I had to kill someone in self defense, or to save my child, for example. I'd still feel justified, however.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> It's hard for genuinely good people to understand the mind of a bad person.
> 
> All of us tend to think that others think, feel and act in generally the same manner that we do.
> 
> That goes both ways. That is why the cheaters themselves are often some of the most suspicious and jealous and controlling people out there.


Careful with the broad brush. Cheating is always bad and many cheaters are like you describe.

There are also those that have sunk low and found themselves doing something they despise and regret.

It doesn't make it not bad and, during the lies and actual cheating, they have become something bad.

Some people just became too weak, while others encountered situations they weren't prepared for but did not want to continue or ever repeat having an affair or even a ONS.

Mrs. Conan was the OW twice, was cheated on and cheated in response during her first two marriages as well.

She despised her life at those points and regrets those moments, expressing deep sorrow.

She has been the epitome of fidelity in our relationship however and it took better circumstances and the right man, namely me, for her to achieve something she really desired in herself.

She is a sincerely good woman that had a very harsh life until she met me.

Not everyone who cheats can wear the same Scarlett letter.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> This was not a statistical breakdown or analysis of a cross section of all cheaters.
> 
> This was simply a very general trend I noticed in the individual postings of some people that posted in a pro-adultery forum.


For every married woman who cheats w/ a married man, there is a married man who cheats w/ a married woman. I know, duh. 

I am trying to align this fact w/ the statement that female cheaters are more likely to choose a married AP then male cheaters are. Are there a lot more male cheaters? Does the site attract an unrepresentative population? If the latter, conclusions we draw from it aren't representative either.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

SpinyNorman said:


> If the latter, conclusions we draw from it aren't representative either.


I wasn't drawing any conclusions. I was reporting an general trend on had noticed on a website.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Oldshirt stay off that site. It will rot your brain.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The math presents no problem for me at all. Most of the women ON THAT SITE are cheating with married men. Most of the men ON THAT SITE are cheating with single women. The people are this site are not the only available cheaters in the world. So no, there is no statistical dissonance. Why do you assume everyone on the site can only be cheating with EACH OTHER.

It's not hard to understand.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> I will say there is no black and white except at the extremes. There are only shades of gray. Black/white thinking is only for those who are too intellectually and morally lazy or incompetent to make finer distinctions. _No one_ is all good, or all bad.


I don't like the words good or bad when it comes to actions. I like right and wrong. I like responsibly. It's wrong to purposely hurt others in a way that society has deemed morally unjustified for just your own pleasure. Everyone has a certain responsibly to their fellow man not to do this when that is a reasonable expectation. Someone who repeatedly does this, does that make them a bad person? In my mind it does, but even if you don't want to say that you can say that they are immoral. It really just comes down to semantics.

I also believe everyone should be judged by their actions (in totality). But current actions can hold more weight then past ones as far as everyday life. Though obviously the timing of the actions contributes to this. Also who you are in relation to those actions. A reformed murder is always a murderer, however if he is doing good at the present some may see him as redeemed, though I doubt the loved one of the one he killed will, and I think that is fair. As such your ex who cheated may always be an ******* to you even if they never cheat again and have a faithful relationship with someone else. That's life. 

Some actions are too egregious to ever be completely expunged from one's record in this life. Adultery is one of them. This also makes sense and is usually commensurate with the fact that the ramifications of those actions to the injured party are life long as well.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hexagon said:


> This. There are some things I do and also don't understand about this. I don't, no matter how hard I try, cannot fathom why they are so incredibly hostile towards their husbands.
> The other I do get. Of course its easy to gain acceptance if they claim that the husband is abusive. Mine did this. I wasn't abusive, I worshipped the ground she walked on. But as far as the hate, the reasons escape me.


Don't try to find reason with the mentally disabled. 

In general this also points out one of the problems (not saying you) but the default assumption is that the WS is mentally and emotionally capable of having a long term relationship. In many cases this is just not the case, because the WS is emotionally retarded. They have no ability to function in a way that would lead to success. I wish this was pointed out more. It's very similar to asking a mentally retarded person to run a business. This would just be and unfair thing to do and frankly not possible. Such is the case with many WS, they are just not emotionally developed enough to function in a participatory relationship like a marriage. They may be able to do the shallow stuff like attraction, flirting and things required in short term relationships, but when it comes emotionally mature/intelligent characteristics like empathy, discipline, long term thinking, they are just not capable.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> For every married woman who cheats w/ a married man, there is a married man who cheats w/ a married woman. I know, duh.
> 
> I am trying to align this fact w/ the statement that female cheaters are more likely to choose a married AP then male cheaters are. Are there a lot more male cheaters? Does the site attract an unrepresentative population? If the latter, conclusions we draw from it aren't representative either.


Don't forget it's not a one to one ratio as well.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Don't forget it's not a one to one ratio as well.


Yes, this ^^^^

Many (both the men and women) appear to be serial cheaters as well as plate spinners that have multiple APs at any given time.

Also, I did not even say that most of MM did in fact have single APs, nor did I say that the MW only got down with MM. 

I said that the trend I noted in my limited sample size tended to prefer and gravitate towards those mentioned. 

Mean the WHs seemed to prefer single APs where as the WWs seemed to prefer MM. 

Please do not anyone try to make this into a scientific statistical survey or try to argue against my stated observations. I am only reporting what I saw; not trying to state scientific or statistical fact. 

I can't word it any more clear than that.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Oldshirt stay off that site. It will rot your brain.


lmao......this made me spit my drink.

Honestly though......getting insight into how screwed up a cheater’s mind is though is important.

One of the almost universal things I read on any BS thread concerns one question.....Why?

And many BS end up like a dog chasing its tail trying to grasp an answer to it.

Seeing just how warped, selfish, and despicable the mind of cheaters are by reading on sites like this can be a great insight for a BS struggling with this....

If they can stomach wading through the toxic bullsh*t that passes for logical thought in these truly disgusting people.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think there is a lot of brokenness on both sides of the equation.


There is a lot of brokenness in marriage in general. Infidelity is just one facet. What percentage of marriages with no infidelity are truly healthy?

Infidelity is probably as often a symptom as it is the disease itself.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Cletus said:


> There is a lot of brokenness in marriage in general. Infidelity is just one facet. What percentage of marriages with no infidelity are truly healthy?
> 
> Infidelity is probably as often a symptom as it is the disease itself.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk



NONONONONONO!

All marriages are wonderful and all spouses are giving saints....except cheaters.

Cheating is absolutely wrong.

Pretending that a crap marriage has no bearing on vulnerability is willful stupidity.


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

A couple of interesting stories


Women Are Now Cheating As Much As Men, But With Fewer Consequences

Women Are Now Cheating As Much As Men



I Went Undercover On ****** ******* To Find Out Why Women Cheat

https://www.yourtango.com/experts/c...at-married-man-goes-undercover-******-*******


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think women have probably always cheated. Maybe not as much as men, but probably close. I think men were less quiet about it because for a long time it was kind of....expected, maybe? But women can be just as devious and deceitful as men.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Don't forget it's not a one to one ratio as well.


I don't know what you mean.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I wasn't drawing any conclusions. I was reporting an general trend on had noticed on a website.


Wasn't accusing you, just cautioning people something appears to be missing from the data.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> lmao......this made me spit my drink.
> 
> Honestly though......getting insight into how screwed up a cheater’s mind is though is important.
> 
> ...



I don't need to peer inside Charles Manson's brain to try to understand evil. I don't need to understand evil itself, except only to know how to spot it when it is in disguise. 

Reading slop from those adulterous idiots is not giving anyone any useful information, other than showing the world how profane, ignorant and self-deluded they are. Such persons do not have one ounce of logical, objective self-knowledge, which is why they continue on down the road to destruction they are on. All we need to know is what they look like and act like so we can avoid them and not be corrupted by them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Oldshirt stay off that site. It will rot your brain.


Whether it rots my brain or not remains to be seen but it is definately cheap entertainment and I find myself spending more and more time there vs here. 

Comparing this site to that site is like watching a car race wondering if there might be a crash vs watching a demolition derby. 

It reminds me of the the old song, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.." LOL ;-)


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Whether it rots my brain or not remains to be seen but it is definately cheap entertainment and I find myself spending more and more time there vs here.
> 
> Comparing this site to that site is like watching a car race wondering if there might be a crash vs watching a demolition derby.
> 
> It reminds me of the the old song, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.." LOL ;-)


Schadenfreude?


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Interesting. I got the theme of the majority of it however it would have been easier to follow if you didn't use like 100 acronyms. At least state the full word/phrase one time before you switch over to acronyms. 

I'm thrilled to know cheaters DARVO or don't DARVO or call it DARVO......whatever the hell that is. 

Gotta run I've got to BSGOTWH and then RBTS and afterwards PCAPWK. Understand?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Schadenfreude?


More like watching a train wreck unfold right before your eyes. You can't not watch.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> More like watching a train wreck unfold right before your eyes. You can't not watch.


I could never go onto that forum. it would make mo SO mad to hear all their pathetic excuses and attempts at justification.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

There's nothing on that list that wasn't already known here on tam. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I could never go onto that forum. it would make mo SO mad to hear all their pathetic excuses and attempts at justification.


I think reading too many of these stories anywhere can really wear a person down. There are so many scenarios one never thinks of - the kids turning on the betrayed parent, the BS getting an STD, an affair that lasts for years and years - it all one giant mess.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Thanks for posting this Oldshirt. I enjoy discussions about uncomfortable topics.


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## bluelily (Jul 10, 2018)

I really regret yet feel informed after reading these kind of forums. Uncomfortable but needs to be done
Makes me wonder how many percentage of WS really are sorry for their action not because of getting caught.
How many are in R yet still looking back at the A time as the best sex/best date etc, because that's not what sorry is


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

bluelily said:


> I really regret yet feel informed after reading these kind of forums. Uncomfortable but needs to be done
> Makes me wonder how many percentage of WS really are sorry for their action not because of getting caught.
> How many are in R yet still looking back at the A time as the best sex/best date etc, because that's not what sorry is


If you read a skewed forum you'll get a skewed perspective.

Spending too much time on 4Chan would have you believing that all white men are white supremacists.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Why would somebody cheat instead of just being open and honest and getting into the swinging world? Cheating is dishonest and honesty is the cornerstone of a marriage relationship - so, cheating makes no sense.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Why would somebody cheat instead of just being open and honest and getting into the swinging world? Cheating is dishonest and honesty is the cornerstone of a marriage relationship - so, cheating makes no sense.


This is why it's good to get into the mind of cheaters - because then you understand the "why" better. 

The 'why' to your question is Because cheating is an act of selfishness and getting your cake and eating it too without having to appease anyone else. 

I used to be in the swinging lifestyle, it is a lot of work and often times the results are somewhat lackluster. In order to swing, your partner has to be agreeable and an active participant. Swinging also takes a very high degree of communication, respect, observance of boundaries and a laundry list of rules and limits. It also involves quite a bit of compromise and cooperation of which neither of those are a cheater's strong suit. 

In order to cheat, all you have to do is find someone who is willing to screw you and not get caught. You get the fun and excitement of banging someone else while you also get the benefit of a spouse at home taking care of the not-so-fun stuff of maintaining a home and family.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

@oldshirt

"Whether it rots my brain or not remains to be seen but it is definitely cheap entertainment and I find myself spending more and more time there vs here.

Comparing this site to that site is like watching a car race wondering if there might be a crash vs watching a demolition derby.

It reminds me of the the old song, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.." LOL ;-)"
^^^^^^^

Considering all the folks trying to pry the site out of you 'just for further enlightenment', if you could bottle it and sell it, you'd be wealthy (wealthier).

I'm struck by the number of people who'd rather cheat than divorce--just because it is perceived to be easier and at the time seems to be cheaper.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I think women have probably always cheated. Maybe not as much as men, but probably close. I think men were less quiet about it because for a long time it was kind of....expected, maybe? But women *can be just as* devious and deceitful as men.


 Can be?
I don't think your giving credit where credit is due.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sunsetmist said:


> ^^^^^^^
> 
> .
> 
> I'm struck by the number of people who'd rather cheat than divorce--just because it is perceived to be easier and at the time seems to be cheaper.


For women it is cheaper and easier to cheat than to D. Most men will gladly do a married woman who is just looking for some NSA sex on the side and they will gladly pick up all expenses. 


Truth be known, I think a lot of women will endure really bad marriages for the financial support and to keep the kids under the same roof 24/7 and since it's so easy for them to get sex on the side, they just pick up a few FBs and FWBs to give them whatever ego strokes and hot sex they need on the side that they aren't getting or simply do want from the marriage. 



But I am not sure that it is any easier or cheaper in the long run for men. I think many of them actually work pretty hard and costs them quite a bit to maintain double lives over time. 

So I don't know if it is about ease or cheapness exactly. 

I think most cheaters simply want both. They want cake and to eat it too. They want the stability and social acceptance and expectation of marriage; and they want the fun and excitement of hot sex in a motel room with someone else. 


They don't want either/or - they want both. Getting poon on the side while maintain a home, family and marriage is actually a lifestyle choice for many. 


Once you understand that cheating is about selfishness and self indulgence, it all makes perfect sense. 


I'm getting to the point now that I am more surprised by the numbers of people that DON'T cheat than I am about the number of people who do.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> sunsetmist said:
> 
> 
> > ^^^^^^^
> ...


 Now now old shirt, you know that's not true. You know that women become independently wealthy through divorce while men become homeless. Now now lol


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