# 25 years but can/should i continue



## nothintolosebyasking (Oct 8, 2016)

with apologies for the length but gratitude for your responses....

We have been married nearly 25 years and have 4 daughters aged from 21-14.
My husband has always had difficulty showing any emotion or affection eg shortly after we were married we were walking in the city holding hands. We bumped into someone we knew. As soon as he saw this friend he dropped my hand, unable to show even that level of affection in front of someone. I laughed about it at the time saying ‘we’re married. I think he knows we have a relationship’ but i now realise that showed a deeper reluctance/inability to admit to any feelings or emotion. I put this down mostly to his age/generation (born 1963)/upbringing and in particular being 1 of 6 boys (no sisters) who would tough talk and any emotion a sign of weakness etc.

He earns a lot of money and somehow we slipped into very traditional roles in the marriage. I have been home full time essentially since kids arrived and he has been breadwinner. Although i was a well regarded professional i have lost any chance at a meaningful professional career but more importantly in this context, i have lost the ability to earn a decent income while he still has say another decade of earning over $1m per year.

I have been very happy staying home and don’t regret that at all except that the effect of divorcing on my lifestyle/finances would be extreme. He does nothing at home unless asked and even then will rarely do it properly leading to a lot of resentment on my part. I think it is a passive/aggressive thing on his part as he has a ‘thing’ about men being ‘under the thumb/bossed about’ by their wives. As best i can understand it. Doing what i ask him to do would make him ‘under the thumb’. (we are talking completing chores properly so they don’t cause more work down the track here, not asking him to solve world poverty). Some things i have been asking for over 20 years but i have given up now. (you would think a man smart enough to run a business and earn that much could do the washing so it actually dries but apparently not).

The worst thing though is the lack of any companionship, relationship or emotional connection at all between us. This has always been an issue but is markedly worse over the last say 5 years. As a result i have refused sex for at least 2 years although i have never been that enthusiastic for various reasons (including massive cancer surgery/surgical menopause and the need to be on oestrogen suppressants for the rest of my life). Unfortunately sex is the only way he can/wants to express affection. He never touches me, barely speaks to me, doesn’t want to go anywhere or do anything (have to be home by 9pm to go to bed), watches tv or reads newspaper whenever home. But why would i want to have sex with him? I might as well have sex with my next door neighbour. At least i can have an occasional conversation with him! I have mentioned the lack of connection a few times. Once i said ‘ i get more emotional support from Jenny[my best friend] than from you’. The next day he said ‘are you and Jenny lesbians?’. Talk about confusing sex with love! This is what i am dealing with.

Rationally i do think he loves me but boy does he hide it well. And i don’t think he understands the link between lack of connection and the lack of sex.

So, a couple of months ago things finally came to a head (again). He actually showed an emotion but.... he was distressed because he thinks our 18 year old daughter who will go off to live at College next year will be gone and not come back because of her poor relationship with me. She has always been a tricky child and from about the age of 11 treated me very rudely and badly. He NEVER supported me in this situation. He tried to keep us apart by being the one that took her places etc but never supported me in really telling her that her behaviour was unacceptable etc. ( after many years of trying and wondering what i was doing wrong i have finally stopped blaming myself for this poor relationship. I have 3 other daughters with whom i have ‘normal’ relationships (not perfect. Normal. Not ‘friends’. I am a parent). She is the only one with a bad relationship)

Anyway, after 7 years of me being treated badly (even other family members noticed the way the now 18 year old treated me as being unacceptable) he is suddenly upset that he thinks we will be estranged! I was just devastated. How can he ignore my hurt and the way she treated me for so long and then suddenly care/show an emotion about her. That was it. I have considered leaving/whether the marriage was worth it for a long time, about 15 years but i said to him that because of that the marriage is over. I finally went and saw a family lawyer friend who is herself divorced and she explained my likely financial position but said from her own experience i should try to make it work as being single is hard and very lonely (i have absolutely no interest in another relationship. No thanks! plus am already lonely)

So i went back and told him she had advised me to try to make it work so that’s what i was going to do. I said i was going to get some counselling. He said he appreciated that i would do that. So i have started seeing a counsellor for ‘Commitment and Acceptance” therapy but i don’t feel much has happened yet. He doesn’t even know i am going to the counsellor yet because (in typical fashion) he has not mentioned the whole thing since that day. (surely it is not normal to say nothing/pretend nothing has happened for over 3 months since the day your wife said the marriage was over?)

I am just constantly struggling back and forth with “just endure. You will be unhappy separated too, just in a different way plus all the pain caused to everyone else (children, parents etc etc). The financial implications are terrible. You will lose the house you love. Maybe when he retires and relaxes a little you can reconnect” vs. “it will never change. why should i ‘endure’ something? There is a lot wrong and that will not change. At least if you split up you wouldn’t have any expectations of anyone that are constantly disappointed. You push down the unhappiness and resentment for a while but it will always bubble up again eventually. It is a very painful time but everyone gets over it eventually”. I am just so scared of the unknown and being poor and not able to do the things i want to do. And i don’t want to hurt and upset everyone. And i don’t want to ‘fail’ at marriage.

My preference would be to stay married but in a happier way. But i just don’t think i can endure feeling unloved and uncared for for another 20 years. When i express this he says he does love, care for, appreciate etc etc me but i certainly cant ‘feel’ it. I have asked him to tell me what a fly on the wall of our house would be able to point to that would demonstrate that we were anything more than roommates and he is unable to come up with anything.

My question is, is there any hope for a happy future in this marriage? What should i do?
PS there are no third parties involved. Certainly not on my side and i don’t think on his


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is a possibility that this can turn around.

Since the only person you can change is yourself, that's where you start. And you changing will cause him to change. Hopefully he will change in a way that helps your relationship.

There are some books that I think will help you quiet a bit. Read them in the order that they are listed here.

"Divorce Busting" - In this book pay special attention to the chapter on how to introduce change into the environment (your marriage). The author calls it the "180" meaning you start behaving 180 degrees differently from the way your husband would expect. (not the 180 linked to in my signature block below).

These next two books go together. They are meant for both of you to read. But I doubt you could get him to read them at this time. So start out with you reading them and you doing the work that they suggest. They will help you get the words and plan together to restructure your marriage. AT some point, as things improve, hopefully he will join you and read the books and do the work with you.

"Love Busters" 

"His Needs, Her Needs"

I also suggest that for a while, you stop talking to him about your issues with the marriage. Until you have a map of what you are wanting to do, constantly bringing up your unhappiness will only get him to shut you out more.

Also... have you considered getting a job so that you have something outside of the home?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

How would he describe things if he were posting here? How much do you understand his perspective?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

So, his behavior is passive aggressive, but you refusing sex for two years is not?

If he's earning a mil a year, get a housekeeper. 

The thumb comment is all about control. Don't get to that situation. A marriage is about partnership, not control. I wash the dishes at home and have often been accused of not doing it properly. If you allow me to be blunt, if he walks out on you, you'll have plenty of time to do it by your standards. 

The money, and what it allows you to do, is the white elephant in the room. Try to make it work, because at the end, even with generous alimony, he'll be far better off. 

He's a moron (ergo, Jenny comment) but hopefully a trainable moron. Find a good MC and go for it. The MC and you should be able to tell if he's a terminal moron or a fixable one.

Emotional connection is great, but bickering about chores does not help.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

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## NothingsOriginal (Sep 23, 2016)

I have a few basic questions:

1) What made you marry him in the first place? Is that still there?

2) Do you WANT to save the relationship? Does he?


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

They say money can't buy happiness. This is a perfect example.

I'll echo what others have said. If I made $1M a year, or even half that, I wouldn't do one household chore. I would hire someone. 

If you are a full time SAHM, its your job to these things, just like its his job to do whatever he does he does to make $1M / year.

BTW, with his financial means and you withholding sex for 2 years, there is a likely chance that he has a mistress.


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## Manchester (Oct 7, 2016)

Show him my story about how I'm totally screwed with my divorce and probably headed to jail and ask him if he wants to be like that guy because you can and will make it happen if he doesn't change his tune.

Too late for me, not too late for you.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There is a possibility that this can turn around.
> 
> *Since the only person you can change is yourself, that's where you start.* And you changing will cause him to change. Hopefully he will change in a way that helps your relationship.


Elegirl's comment is the truth, you can change only yourself. Begin by making time to end the lonelyness that you feel. Get involved in a club or some kid activities that you enjoy. Make time to do this by getting someone to do the chores you normally do.

You can build a family with the daughters that are still home and do fun family stuff. Your husband can come and join in as he desires. Do not not do things because he just wants to sit at home and read the paper. Get out and live your life with your kids and a hobby and maybe classes. Focus on improving yourself and the relationship with your daughters and your friends. Try to include your husband but if he is not into it dont let that stop the plans. Go and do them anyway living life. 

He is what he is and your actions will present a situation where he will either desire to be with the family more or not. If he entrenches and withdrawals then you have your answer and you have built yourself up so that you can leave if you need. If he decides that he wants to participate in being a family then you have more of what you want. 

Time is precious don't waste it by waiting for a tomorrow that may never come. Actions speak louder than words and your actions will strengthen you and send a message to him about what you want and need from life. Chose actions today that will make you happier for the future.


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## nothintolosebyasking (Oct 8, 2016)

thank you all for your responses.
I am not sure what the etiquette is for responding whether I should respond individually so I apologise if I am doing it wrong but it is from ignorance not intentional.
elegirl I will get those books thank you.
yes it is time for me to get back into the workforce or similar but there are 2 reasons why now is not quite the right time. firstly my mother is terminally ill and I don't want to take on any commitments until I've seen her off this earth. I want to be there for my parents as and when they need me over the next few months. secondly my legal advice is not to get a job if there is possibility of separation/divorce as this will lead to a poorer result for me in any property settlement (I am in Australia and I guess our laws are quite different to USA)
similarly Meson I do try to keep myself busy in many of the ways you suggested and others and I agree with all you say. Maybe elegirls book suggestion and some different behaviour from me on the '180' suggestions will help.
John 117 and others I think I have mistakenly given the impression that there is a lot of bickering about chores. there isn't and that is not the main problem. but I do believe everyone has an obligation to contribute to the household no matter how much they earn. I am a SAHM not a domestic slave. but we can agree to disagree on that.
wazza I really think he has no understanding of my need for some friendship/emotional engagement/ companionship. he appears to not have these needs. he is perfectly content (yes, other than the lack of sex) and doesn't understand why I am not. he just doesn't get it and I don't think he ever can.
thank you NothingsOriginal. you are right I really need to think about that. off the top of my head now I really cant remember. maybe I can reawaken some of that for myself.
Barbados you are so right about money cannot buy happiness and it also illustrates that you never really know what is going on for other people. from the outside it would look as if everything were perfect.
finally, notmyrealname4, fortunately we are not in any financial difficulty. I am fortunate that he is not a gambler or big drinker or big nights out on the town person. thank you for reminding me. the problem for me is it is so boring!!
I just want to feel loved and cared for like most people I expect. unfortunately as the years have gone by he has become less and less capable of making me feel that way and more and more made me feel like the domestic slave.
anyway, thank you all and plenty of food for thought.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The etiquette is to quote each post as you reply to it. That makes it easiest to trace ideas as they develop.

When a marriage gets into trouble, I reckon there are usually faults and incompatibilities on both sides. But it's easier for each person to see the other's faults than their own. 

I'm not trying to be critical, but I posed my original question, because I got a sense of that in your post. The things that you don't like about him appear to be clearly his fault in your view, while the things you do wrong are justified. To be honest, unless you can move beyond that, i don't know how you can find compromises, and without compromise, I don't think anything improves. 

You should also hunt through TAM for threads on sexual mismatch. It's highly likely that your refusal to share physical intimacy with him has caused him to emotionally withdraw from you. Of itself, that could be one of the causes of your problem. It also raises another danger. At the moment, you have framed your problem in terms of whether you wish to stay with him. It is entirely possible that he has also given up, and is staying until the kids are older, either from a sense of duty, or because it is financially better to leave later.


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## Manchester (Oct 7, 2016)

nothintolosebyasking said:


> secondly my legal advice is not to get a job if there is possibility of separation/divorce as this will lead to a poorer result for me in any property settlement


If you can work you should work. To stay out of work just to get more money in a divorce isn't fair. The laws are written that way so people who cannot work are given more money to SURVIVE its not so that a person can say "I won't work because I want more free money (or property). He works, so can you. Sorry about your mom but those of us who work also sometimes have sick or dying relatives as well.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Everyone has responsibilities for chores regardless of how much they earn? 

Not sure I buy it if the guy brings home serious money. Unless he's a trust fund babe he works for it. Do you think he is in the mood to empty the clothes dryer?

What kind of quality standards are we talking about? 

Think of the opportunity cost per hour, him working or him painting the walls. I do a lot of chores - much more than my share - and my wife works. 

Prove both of us wrong by hiring domestic help. 

The reason I'm asking is that I'm not sure chores are as big an issue as we think. The lack of emotional connection and such is far more serious of course.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Manchester said:


> If you can work you should work. To stay out of work just to get more money in a divorce isn't fair. The laws are written that way so people who cannot work are given more money to SURVIVE its not so that a person can say "I won't work because I want more free money (or property). He works, so can you. Sorry about your mom but those of us who work also sometimes have sick or dying relatives as well.


Yes, THIS. You need to get to work. Your kids are well grown, you don't need to be home to tend to them any more. Go back to school to get up to speed in your field, and go to work. 

Since YOU are the one who is home all day with no small children underfoot, YOU should be the one responsible for keeping the home. Yes, your husband should help out if you make a request of him, that's only right since it IS his home too. However I disagree with those saying you should hire a service...as long as you stay at home, THIS is your job. 

Being the sole provider does NOT entitle your husband to sit on his ass and ignore you, not sure who the hell he thinks he is. He is in a marriage, and that takes effort to maintain and make work. I was in the same position as you when it comes to sex in my first marriage. I decided I wasn't doing it any more. I was given NO attention or affection by my H unless he wanted sex, and our sex together was crappy when it did happen. I went two years as well, just like you. Then guess what...another man tripped my libido back on and I had an affair. It wasn't that my sex drive was dead, which was what I had been assuming was going on with me... my desire and love for my H was dead, as well as my marriage. Just warning that you are on a slippery slope here. 

If he isn't willing to step up and make an effort for the marriage, then you need to get moving on your end. Do the counseling. Take some classes and go to work. You will get support once you divorce, and your unwillingness to work to get money from your H is rather despicable, sorry. YOU are the only one who can change your situation.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Wow, I had to check and see this wasn't one of my old posts!! My husband of 24 years also dropped my hand when we were dating and made an excuse for it. We were together for 27 years and he was a completely emotionless, detached, emotionally unavailable, uninvolved husband and father. I raised his sons who he full custody and what you describe with your daughter is exactly what i went thru with his sons. If anything he tried to make me out to be the bad guy and placed indirect blame on me so that he would not have to take responsibility and would come out smelling like a rose. There too was issues with his family. It was an awful mess!

I am now divorced. The divide never changed, he remained detached. I felt like I was nothing but his cook, housekeeper and nanny for pretty much the entire marriage yet he wanted me to go to him for sex and if I did not he would become upset. I played that game for many years to please him and try to get him engaged in the relationship but it would never be. He would go to porn or would be seeking other women in some fashion for his lustful desires. It was not a matter of refusing him sex for me, it was a matter of no longer having the desire to be treated the way I had been and still have any feelings left for him to have sex. There was nothing left and we were living as roommates, did not sleep in the same bed for the last 5 years of our marriage. he acted like he did not care and all of the communicating and book reading I did never changed a thing. I was to please him and he would do as he wished. eventually I lost all love and respect for him and left.

The only thing I personally can see saving a marriage as you have described is marriage counseling but bother parties must be willing.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I see a power struggle here. He wants sex, you don't give it because he won't be the kind of person you want him to be. Lost of PA stuff on both sides. One of you needs to step away from the drama triangle/victim persecutor thing.

The thing with your daughter is very disturbing. She likely played both of you guys as he didn't support you in dealing with her. That would almost be a dealbreaker for me. If we're not on the same page parenting then all hell can break loose. And, it bleeds into other sections of the relationship.

If he's making 1m a year you'll be fine divorced. 

If you want to save the marriage though, I'd drag him to Retrovaille.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Without sex I really can't imagine any kind of emotional connection. I start to detach within weeks. After 2 years you'd just be the stranger I support financially.


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