# Yelling - abuse?



## Ieliaj (Mar 4, 2013)

My partner is a yeller and I very much am not. He doesn't yell the typical, terribly cruel stuff so many do about me being worthless; he doesn't tell me no one likes me or anything like that. In those regards, he's actually very affirming. 

But he yells when he's angry and is quick to snap. I could understand somewhat that we simply have different communication styles (he comes from a family of extraordinarily abusive yellers), except that often when he yells, it's: 1. As a response to me expressing some displeasure or frustration calmly to him, especially if he feels I'm angry (he almost always does, when I rarely am more than irritated or confused); 2. when he feels he's losing an argument (in which case he has in the past also brought everything in but the kitchen sink in order to try to win); 3. when I shut down as a response to the yelling, at which point he seems to double down on the yelling; 4. when he's expressing a frustration he's been holding in (often after swearing up and down that nothing's wrong while being distant).

I've communicated to him that yelling doesn't work for me and is the quickest way to shut me down, in our calmer fighting moments. And he's gotten "better" (in my view, better) at arguing in that he stopped the kitchen sink fighting when I told him it would be a deal breaker for me if it didn't stop. He occasionally will even catch himself with the yelling and apologize when he sees I've pulled away. 

But the yelling really bothers me; it feels like someone's trying to shut me down when I'm upset about something, like someone's trying to make me feel crazy for having a complaint. I finally told him tonight--after he snapped at me for distracting him while he was cleaning, I calmly told him I didn't like it and he started yelling--that I find yelling abusive (using that word). That lead to more yelling and him 1. asking me angrily, yelling, whether I realized what I had accused him of; 2. Telling me he found my quiet shutting down when he starts yelling as "abusive" too; and 3. then contradicting himself and telling me he doesn't find yelling abusive ("since when is registering displeasure 'abusive'?"), and how would I like it if he called my shutting down abusive, and what difference was there?

(As a reference, my "shutting down" can include becoming very quiet, dismissively saying "ok" to things he yells at me, and going to another room (like now) when I feel the argument is going nowhere; on a couple occasions, I've skipped a meal we were cooking when the fight began. Often, I need more time to "open up" again than he needs to calm down enough to try to restart a conversation, which often makes him angry again.)

I don't know what to do or if I'm overreacting in my characterization of his behavior. I do know I don't want to be in a relationship where the fights are like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thalia (Feb 4, 2012)

Yes, yelling like this is abuse. If it was a rare occurrence due to something extreme, then maybe not but what he's doing is definitely verbal and emotional abuse. If it were me (and it has been) I would squarely tell him that when he can talk in a calm, rational manner you'll be happy to have a conversation with him and then I would turn and walk away. If it progressed to him following you and banging on the locked bedroom door (for instance) then I would leave the house. I might also demand he take some anger management classes. There's no reason for this kind of behavior between two adults. It's just a grown up temper tantrum!


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## dwaynewilliams (Feb 1, 2010)

Ieliaj said:


> My partner is a yeller and I very much am not. He doesn't yell the typical, terribly cruel stuff so many do about me being worthless; he doesn't tell me no one likes me or anything like that. In those regards, he's actually very affirming.
> 
> But he yells when he's angry and is quick to snap. I could understand somewhat that we simply have different communication styles (he comes from a family of extraordinarily abusive yellers), except that often when he yells, it's: 1. As a response to me expressing some displeasure or frustration calmly to him, especially if he feels I'm angry (he almost always does, when I rarely am more than irritated or confused); 2. when he feels he's losing an argument (in which case he has in the past also brought everything in but the kitchen sink in order to try to win); 3. when I shut down as a response to the yelling, at which point he seems to double down on the yelling; 4. when he's expressing a frustration he's been holding in (often after swearing up and down that nothing's wrong while being distant).
> 
> ...


Sounds like be just needs to learn a better way to express his feelings. This is common among men. I had the same problem with my wife in the early stages of our relationship. I went to therapy to learn how to respond appropriately. Unfortunately for men, we are taught to respond aggressively to things. But that doesn't fly when you are dealing with a woman. I would advise counseling for him. It did wonders for me.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Yelling would be a deal breaker for me. A man that is not able to have a civil discussion without resorting to yelling is not a good man.

Unless he is willing to see his ways are impacting life negatively and do something to change that then I would consider if this is a worthwhile relationship.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes it's abusive.

Watched my father do this to my mother often until I moved out. She shut down to protect herself from his verbal assaults.

The only way to stop it is to well stop it. Tell him you're not going to allow him to scream at you. Warn him you will walk away, leave the house, whatever you have to but you will no longer be his verbal punching bag anymore.


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## IrishGirlVA (Aug 27, 2012)

I had a viseral reaction reading your post. It brought back memories of a situation I was in this time last year. I moved in with my boyfriend and after about a month I was thrown into an environment where he was yelling and screaming at me everytime I tried to talk about an issue. Not only is it abusive it is humiliating. I eventually moved out and I have a new found appreciation for quiet and peace. 

The good news is, your husband has the capacity to change. The bad news is there is no overnight fix. 

Does you inadvertantly "reward" him for his outbursts? Meaning, does it give him the solution he is looking for? Does he get his way? Do you wind up apologizing just to keep the peace? If so, that needs to change. Bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded or accepted. And he needs to know that you "shutting down" is not to hurt him but to protect yourself. Him yelling at you is solely to hurt you. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE! Someone needs to look out for you and its apparent it is not him. 

I wonder what he would do if some random person started screaming at you in public. Would he sit back and watch? If he wouldn't let a stranger verbally assult you then how on earth can he justify him doing it?


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## dwaynewilliams (Feb 1, 2010)

Holland said:


> Yelling would be a deal breaker for me. A man that is not able to have a civil discussion without resorting to yelling is not a good man.
> 
> Unless he is willing to see his ways are impacting life negatively and do something to change that then I would consider if this is a worthwhile relationship.


Good people do bad things sometimes. It doesn't seem like he is a bad man according to the OP's post. It just seems like he has some issues that he has to overcome. There is not telling where these behaviors come from and sometimes people do things not really knowing how it affects the other person. He needs to be given a chance, a legitimate shot and being able to address this issue. I don't believe ultimatums or threats is a mature way of addressing his verbal abuse. I would approach him with care and understanding. Express your feelings and offer help. Show him that you are sensitive to his issue. This is hard to do when his behavior hasn't been the greatest, but in a marriage, you sometimes have to pick up the slack when your partner is struggling.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You can try to put an end to his yelling. Just tell him that yelling does not work for you. If is scares you tell him that it does. Then tell him that from now on you will walk away if he yells. If he has something to say he can calm himself down and after that talk to you in a calm voice about it. 

Then every time he yells just walk off. If he follows you then tell him to stop. Go to a room and lock the door. If he beats on the door tell him you will call the police. Then do call them if he does not stop.

He can learn.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Ieliaj said:


> My partner is a yeller and I very much am not. He doesn't yell the typical, terribly cruel stuff so many do about me being worthless; he doesn't tell me no one likes me or anything like that. In those regards, he's actually very affirming.
> 
> But he yells when he's angry and is quick to snap. I could understand somewhat that we simply have different communication styles (he comes from a family of extraordinarily abusive yellers), except that often when he yells, it's: 1. As a response to me expressing some displeasure or frustration calmly to him, especially if he feels I'm angry (he almost always does, when I rarely am more than irritated or confused); 2. when he feels he's losing an argument (in which case he has in the past also brought everything in but the kitchen sink in order to try to win); 3. when I shut down as a response to the yelling, at which point he seems to double down on the yelling; 4. when he's expressing a frustration he's been holding in (often after swearing up and down that nothing's wrong while being distant).
> 
> ...


I'll be going against the grain here, but alas, it won't be the first time. To say that yelling itself is abusive is an exaggeration that is both critical and possibly unfair. Raising one's voice is a natural reaction to feeling unheard and/or passionate about something. The simple fact that he raises his voice is not abusive by itself, but it could result in YOU feeling abused where another person might not see it as abuse. 

However, that doesn't mean that it's healthy, either. Obviously, this kind of behavior isn't helping your relationship, so it *is* dysfunctional. 

I believe you are both contributing to the problem: 

HIM: His yelling creates a response in you that you dislike. He also seems to have a tendency to feel defensive - also a natural reaction to being criticized. Criticism and defensiveness can destroy relationships. (Read John Gottman's books for wonderful information about this.)

YOU: You seem to be dismissive and critical of him. Also, when you used the word "abusive" to describe yelling, you touched on something you knew he'd be very sensitive to. You know him well enough to understand that abusiveness is part of his emotional baggage, and by using that word, you amped up the argument tenfold. 

When he yells, you probably feel like he's clubbing you over the head with his words and volume. When you shut down to him, he likely feels like your treating him as less than human, unworthy of even being listened to.

The two of you seem to be getting into power struggles. Here are the suggestions I can offer: 

1. Recognize that the listener sets the tone of a conversation. As soon as you hear him start yelling, recognize what is really happening. He feels criticized. THAT is what causes the yelling, and when it happens you have two issues - the thing you were unhappy about AND his defensiveness. Once you recognize this, take a step back. Do your part to remove the defensiveness so that your original issue can be resolved. 

How do you step back? You can A) let him know that he hasn't done anything "wrong." Restate your problem in a way that removes blame from it. B) You can say, "I love you and I want to hear your thoughts, but it's hard for me to really get your message when all I can think about is how I'm being yelled at. Can we talk calmly and without blame?" C) Repeat as necessary. You might have to table a discussion temporarily and set a time to return to it when you're calmer. When emotions run high, logic drops. If you can talk when you're both calm, it's easier to find rational, practical solutions. 

2. Learn to express your displeasure in blame-free messages. If he left the door open for the zillionth time, it can be hard to avoid blame, especially when you feel like he knows full well how you feel. So let's use this pretend example and assume he just did the same thing again. Instead of "You always do this. You know I hate it" try, "I'm unhappy that the door is open. It lets bugs in, and then I feel like our home is violated. I know I've told you how important this is to me, so there's a part of me that feels like I'm not important enough for you to remember to close the door. Am I right about that?" This gets to the heart of situations because the door itself is just a surface issue. Power struggles happen because the two people both feel unimportant or not powerful enough in the relationship. Since I'm seeing power struggles as the gist of your relationship problem, I hope you'll consider using this kind of message when those opportunities arise.


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## Ieliaj (Mar 4, 2013)

OP. Thanks for your responses. I should clarify: we're not married (or formally partnered) but we are committed to each other. We are two gay men by the way.

At this point, he's feeling very wounded that I characterized his yelling as "abusive" and said to me last night, when I tried to re-pick up the conversation, that he could see no alternative than me leaving him if I really think I'm in an abusive relationship. 

I tried to explain to him that I didn't think the relationship was abusive, just the yelling--which by no means happens every day, but pretty consistently when I "bring something up." Maybe on average, 4-6 times a month, usually about a minor "injury" like tone of voice. It really scares and angers me, though, when he says things like, "well, i guess there's not other choice than for you to leave me" when I felt I haven't alluded to that. (I feel I never have; from my recollection, this is the third time he's said something to that effect.) It makes me think he is communicating his own desire to break up.

He wasn't really receptive to my distinction between the behavior and the relationship, and insisted that yelling is a form of communication he tries to control (which I believe) but that he's never going to be able to always contain himself (despite what I perceive to be still way-to-much yelling). We went back and forth until I had raised my voice too. He got upset about that (while continuing to yell), and I apologized for it, because I felt it was the right thing to do; I don't want to become a yeller, though I don't buy that all yelling is equal either for what it's worth.

I haven't had a chance to implement any of the advice given because we spent the rest of the night and this morning in silence. I too would like him to see a therapist--he's going through a lot of personal stress right now apart from our relationship (and in addition to the fact that he's supporting me while I find work; something he's never been in any way mean or self-righteous about for the record.), and I think it would be good for him on several levels. I can't say I think he'll be particularly receptive to the suggestion, to be honest, after he essentially defended a right to yell at me as a valid form of communication. I don't know. I spent the entire night awake and completely confused and hurt by that last bit. It felt like he was saying his "right" to yell was not worth foregoing for the health our relationship.



> If it were me (and it has been) I would squarely tell him that when he can talk in a calm, rational manner you'll be happy to have a conversation with him and then I would turn and walk away. If it progressed to him following you and banging on the locked bedroom door (for instance) then I would leave the house.


This has worked to some degree in the past, though not last night. When I tried to pick up the conversation again, it was less than a minute until he raised his voice again. He has never, and I can't imagine him, banged on the door or been physically intimidating.



> Sounds like be just needs to learn a better way to express his feelings


Obviously I completely agree here. He's said in the past things like, "This is how I grew up communicating. That's how my family talked to each other. It doesn't mean the same to me that it does to you." Though the last point might be true, I am also frankly befuddled he'd want to recreate the communication dynamics of his upbringing, given how much more by-the-book-no-gray-area-abusive (verbally, physically, emotionally, psychologically) his family was.



> Yelling would be a deal breaker for me. A man that is not able to have a civil discussion without resorting to yelling is not a good man.


Though I agree about the yelling, he is a good man. I know that. He has these outbursts and his grumpy moments about all the things he's stressed about, but he's an incredibly supportive and loving partner when we're not fighting--affectionate, affirming, giving, engaging. He always has my back.



> Good people do bad things sometimes. It doesn't seem like he is a bad man according to the OP's post. It just seems like he has some issues that he has to overcome. There is not telling where these behaviors come from and sometimes people do things not really knowing how it affects the other person. He needs to be given a chance, a legitimate shot and being able to address this issue. I don't believe ultimatums or threats is a mature way of addressing his verbal abuse. I would approach him with care and understanding. Express your feelings and offer help. Show him that you are sensitive to his issue. This is hard to do when his behavior hasn't been the greatest, but in a marriage, you sometimes have to pick up the slack when your partner is struggling.


I need to find a way to get through to him; he's worth the work to me of helping him through the struggle of overcoming this behavior. I just don't know how at this point, especially after he defended yelling last night even after I emphasized how problematic it is for me. I almost wish I hadn't used the word "abusive" but it's basically a long-pent-up thought I've over many occasions tried to address with more "tact," and it finally came out.



> Does you inadvertantly "reward" him for his outbursts? Meaning, does it give him the solution he is looking for? Does he get his way? Do you wind up apologizing just to keep the peace? If so, that needs to change. Bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded or accepted. And he needs to know that you "shutting down" is not to hurt him but to protect yourself. Him yelling at you is solely to hurt you. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE! Someone needs to look out for you and its apparent it is not him.
> 
> I wonder what he would do if some random person started screaming at you in public. Would he sit back and watch? If he wouldn't let a stranger verbally assult you then how on earth can he justify him doing it?


No, I don't usually let things go until I feel resolution from both parties--which is very different from previous relationships for him, where they'd have yell fests and then pretend nothing happened. I do end up apologizing about the ways I get dismissive or find myself start yelling back while fighting. I don't want to be that person, though sometimes I feel very much in a corner and that's when I start yelling back I think we both do what we do as a protection mechanism, though your distinction between what one does as protection (withdrawal) and what one does to hurt/control (aggressiveness) is well-stated and something I need to consider more.

And you kind of blew my mind with the stranger yelling thing--I wonder if a lightbulb would go on for him if I posed that question.


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## Ieliaj (Mar 4, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> I'll be going against the grain here, but alas, it won't be the first time. To say that yelling itself is abusive is an exaggeration that is both critical and possibly unfair. Raising one's voice is a natural reaction to feeling unheard and/or passionate about something. The simple fact that he raises his voice is not abusive by itself, but it could result in YOU feeling abused where another person might not see it as abuse.
> 
> However, that doesn't mean that it's healthy, either. Obviously, this kind of behavior isn't helping your relationship, so it *is* dysfunctional.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the distinction you draw between "abusive," "healthy" and "dysfunctional." I have tried in the past, dozens of times, to address the yelling from the dysfunctional perspective. Usually something like, "This kind of communication really does not work for me." I hadn't read your post when I responded, but in my previous I stated, I do wish I might have found a less-charged word than "abusive." It sort of spilled out, regrettably. 

Though I can't lie and say the raising of voices doesn't upset me on it's face, what troubles me the most is when he does it as a response to my feeling injured. I never criticize him in the traditional sense, 'cause I mostly don't give a hoot about the things that people criticize their spouses for. If he leaves the door open, I simply close it. If he leaves the lights on, I turn them off. If he leaves the milk out, I put it away. End of stories. I'm a "if it needs to get done and you're the closest body, do it" type. He is not like that for the record, and has much less patience for these types of frustrations. But I do see how he could interpret my grievances as criticism. Last night, for example, I was trying to be playful (dancing around the kitchen, hugging him) while he was cleaning something. He was clearly irritated with me so I asked him what the matter was and he snapped in a raised voice and aggressive tone that he was just trying to get something done and would I let him focus. I sat quietly for a bit while he finished but was upset about the snap, after which he noticed I was irritated and said angrily, "What?" I responded calmly, "I don't like that you snapped at me" and his response was, "Really? That's how you're going to choose to interpret it?" That was him interpreting what I was saying as criticism, I now see. Then he started yelling at me about how he thinks I'm often distracting while he's cleaning (partially true, though he does the same thing and has admitted to it). It was after this that I told him I found his yelling abusive.

To be honest, I'd have been more or less fine with the snap if it weren't a pattern; if it happens every once in a while, it happens. I snap every couple months too. But what bothers me most is someone yelling at me as a response to me saying, "I didn't like the way you treated me."

I do get dismissive when I get quiet and say "ok" disingenuously, when he starts yelling. Obviously this is not having the intended effect, which is communicating to him that I don't want to engage in yelling. And you're spot on both about his interpretation that I'm not open to hearing where he's coming from and that at that point, I have a hard time letting go of being yelled at.

I definitely see what you're saying about trying to remove the defensiveness. Maybe if I just take a step back and ask, "What did you hear when I said, 'I don't like that you snapped at me?' Why are you yelling?", so I can see whether I can address what might be an underlying doubt or insecurity. I'm not certain how to take the blame out of something like that, though, because I feel like there is blame and it needs to be addressed as a "problem" that *needs* to be cut out, not something I can eventually learn to disregard. In my eyes (my side of the story I know), 85% of the times I address something that's bothering me, it's his tone of voice/lashing out; 10% more are him holding me to a standard to which he doesn't hold himself (like not distracting each other while the other is addressing a household one-man-job). The last 5% is the inconsequential stuff.

In 90% of that 85%, and 50% of that 10%, I really do feel he did "wrong" me.

Maybe, given my stance, I'm not understanding what you're saying. I'm certainly open to that possibility.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Some people aren't even aware of their tone.

I tend to be blunt about things, so if he snapped at me I would directly look at him (eye contact is very important with this) and say "Don't yell at me." Then go to another room. I would let him come to me. This way there's no "What?!" because he would know exactly why I retreated. 

He sucks at communicating dissatisfaction. Yelling maybe worked for him growing up, but you're adults. Raised voices aren't necessary to produce desired results. Maybe when he came to you you could tell him that. If he got angry and still responded in such a way, you could again say "Don't yell at me. Tell me what you want from me without raising your voice." Some people just need to be prompted to change.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Well yelling is just a "tone"..and YIKES it can hurt your ears...((((HUGS))))


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I am a yeller myself. It is something I struggle with. But one thing I have noticed is that my husband (who NEVER yells) will often act as though he is superior to me. He thinks that his arguments are more valid just because he never yells. To be blunt he will often patronize me to avoid yelling. Seriously, I would rather him yell and show a little emotion and involvement with our life rather than the patronizing "whatever" comments and this assurity that hie is better than me because he is unemotional. While I do encourage OP's partner to not yell as often it is a sign of emotional involvement. OP are you sure that your lack of yelling doesn't come off as patronizing? I'm not saying that you should yell just because he does, though.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Ieliaj said:


> I don't know what to do or if I'm overreacting in my characterization of his behavior. I do know I don't want to be in a relationship where the fights are like this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yelling will eventually sink your (marital) ship, it's just a matter of time. Trying to label your partner as abusive is just a way of trying to get back at him, a natural response to the repressed anger you are feeling from being yelled at. Hence the escalation.

Don't call him names (like abuser). Tell him you will need to take steps to protect yourself and your marriage if his behavior doesn't stop. These steps usually involve removing yourself from the situation for a period of time


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm worried that you're going down that road of trying to change another person if you "try to get him into counseling" and "try to get through to him." 

I'll be talking to you about what YOU can do to change yourself, because if you change your response, the relationship will change, too. 



Ieliaj said:


> Though I can't lie and say the raising of voices doesn't upset me on it's face, what troubles me the most is when he does it as a response to my feeling injured. I never criticize him in the traditional sense, 'cause I mostly don't give a hoot about the things that people criticize their spouses for. If he leaves the door open, I simply close it. If he leaves the lights on, I turn them off. If he leaves the milk out, I put it away. End of stories. I'm a "if it needs to get done and you're the closest body, do it" type. He is not like that for the record, and has much less patience for these types of frustrations.
> 
> *He can only see your response through his own filters. Since he's not a "just do it" kind of person, when you *do* say something, he perceives what *he* would be feeling, and responds accordingly.*
> 
> ...


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

OP,

You say that you’re SO knows that you do not like him "yelling" and that he is with effort getting better at stopping himself. I would look on this as progress and try and encourage it. 

I have always had a tendency to raise my voice during an argument but I do make an effort not to shout / yell as I know it can frighten my wife / the kids. I do not always succeed in but I do try.

Many years ago I was waiting to collect my niece from her primary school when I saw two young lads fighting, without thinking I just shouted "STOP" in my best parade ground voice. Not only did the fight stop but so did all movement / speech on the playground (including the adults). After 30 seconds or so there was a low buzz of conversation and the teacher came over to me and asked what had happened "sorry for being so loud but I saw those two boys fighting and from here it was the quickest way to stop it". "Thanks for that" she said "No matter how loud I blow my whistle I can't make them all stand still and be silent like that.
My niece thought the whole thing was great as it made her the centre of attention at school the next day.

“Yelling” is not desirable but IMHO it is not in itself abuse though what is yelled could be.
If by any definition “yelling” is found to be abuse you had best prosecute just about every NCO I ever meet / served with.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

butterscotch said:


> *I'm a terrible yeller. When I feel cornered, which is just about any time someone wants to talk about something uncomfortable, I get overwhelmed and it either ends in fighting (yelling) or fleeing.* I'm impossible in serious emotional talks. I have always been this way, and its part of my neuro issues. Has your husband's family ever talked about his yelling? Does it go back to how he was raised? Some families are louder than others, and fight like they hate each other, but it's just part of how they interact with each other. Not to be too general, but Italian and Greek families are notoriously loud! Was your upbringing very quiet with little to no conflict? Mine was - and its because we've all got the same propensity to being overwhelmed by conflict. I'm constantly shocked at how quickly it turns to yelling or hiding because my family never ever talked about anything unpleasant and I haven't had to deal with it before.
> 
> *I guess my point was that not all yellers associate yelling with aggression or stress, and not all anti-yellers are "better" peacemakers.* Maybe you guys can look into how you were raised and explore the responses you each have to the yelling to better understand one another. If he honestly has rage and anger issues, maybe this will help bring those to light and he can look for help with it. Vice versa, if you discover that you have a particularly strong aversion to conflict, you can learn new coping mechanisms too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for this!! I've tried psycho-analyzing my own pattern of yelling and it wasn't until you said it that I realized I do yell when I feel "cornered". My husband is an extremely intelligent man and he is also a quick thinker. Even before we get into arguments I am already feeling an intense urge to flee. But the thought of not standing up for myself is worse and so I'm predisposed to yell right out of the gate. Then he doesn't yell and I feel patronized. The funny thing about our relationship is that I grew up in a dysfunctional home but there wasn't alot of yelling during conflicts between my parents and I but I'm a big time yeller now. (I was the only child in the house) Conversely my husband comes from a loud, large, and boisterous family but he never yells even though his family had it's own fair share of dysfunction. Regardless, I am going to discuss this thought of feeling cornered by him. Again, thank you!:smthumbup:


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