# speaking with OM



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Posters,

Two decades ago my W was in a relationship with a coworker, this was about a year before we married, but we were had never broken up and I consider it the same as adultery. 

I have an opportunity to speak with OM coming up and I would like to get some ideas about how to start the subject with OM so that he is likely to talk. 

1) "can you do me a favor/kindness and tell me your side of the story"

2) Tell OM that my W confessed and I want to see what he has to say, if the number of times etc line up with his story. I'm not too keen on this as it is a lie my W refuses to talk about it. 

3) Offer the OM money to talk, again not too keen since people will lie for money. 

Thank You
Tamat


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Your plan is to quiz a guy about something that happened 20 years ago?

What is the point now? Why are you still with your wife if you don't believe her? What do you think will even come of this?

Help me understand the motivation?

Has this been just burning at you for the last 20 years? If that is really the case...why not just move on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

It was 20 years ago, and since you weren't married it is not quite the "same as adultery" IMO. I get it still was a betrayal, but 20years later!??? If you really feel the need to talk to the OM after this length of time, that doesn't speak well for your marriage of 2 decades.

Have you told your wife you plan to do this?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

If you felt this way, why did you marry her to begin with?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

First answer this...

When did you find out about their relationship?


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

If she cheated on you, then why did you marry her? And after 20 years, why rip the scab off?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Here's an opening:

"I need to talk to you about the "affair" you had more than 20 years ago with my now wife. I know this makes me look like a stupid insecure fool but if you would be so kind."


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's an opening:
> 
> "I need to talk to you about the "affair" you had more than 20 years with my now wife. * I know this makes me look like a stupid insecure fool *but if you would be so kind."


Pretty much sums it up.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OP, you don't need to confront the OM, you need to confront yourself with the assistance of a good therapist.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

I am, or was, in the same situation as you. I "just" found out on D-day (2 1/2 years ago) that my WW also had a very LTA in the late 80's with a co-worker, we had been married 7 years at the time and our son was 5. I know who the exOM was and have seen him come into my work a number of times. I thought real, real hard about confronting him but I never did. I mean what is the point? He was 18 at the time and now he's in his mid 40's. What's he going tell me that I don't already know? I've got more recent, and more important things to worry about. 

Now do wish I could go back in time and kick his 18 year old ass a few time? Yes, but know that ain't going to happen, but one can dream. That was last century dude, I'd just suck it up and let it go.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I fail to see what you hope to gain/gleen from this encounter. The OP is occupying an important place in your thoughts and emotions for something that is 20 years old. If, after all of this time has passed, you still hold on to this with such fervor as to want to approach the OM then you are certainly not healed and must have had a rough 20 years. If your wife of 20 years will not truthfully convey the events as they were, then why would you think he would?

I would not elevate the OM to such a place of importance by handing him this scepter. He should be nothing more than an insignificant bad memory at this point not worthy of your time and thoughts. Let it go or let her go.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP, please provide more information.

When did you find out?

How did you find out?

Have you and or your wife tried counseling?

Why does she refuse to answer questions? 

Did you know about this before you married her?

Whatever you do, don't give him a freaking cent of your money. That is an awful idea.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TAMAT said:


> Posters,
> 
> Two decades ago my W was in a relationship with a coworker, this was about a year before we married, but we were had never broken up and I consider it the same as adultery.
> 
> ...


I'm not wild about #1 & #2. But will hold judgment on those until you provide more info. For example how did you find out about the relationship? When did you find out?

What is the circumstance when you will get a chance to talk to this guy?

But #3 is a horrible idea. Yes people will lie for money. Is this guy a skid row bum who needs money? Is that why you think that paying him is a good idea.

Also keep in mind that people lie even when they are not paid to talk. People have all kinds of motives. You will have no idea if what he tells you is the truth. But you can be sure that it will fit his motives and be said to show that he's better than you and/or that he's a saint and your now wife seduced him. It's very unlikely that you will get any truth out of this guy.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I, too, am curious what it is you wish to accomplish by talking to OM.

Was he married at the time of the affair?
Did he know your gf/fiance was in a serious relationship at the time?
If so, did he know it was you?
What kind of discussion did you have with her at that time about the affair?

I would expect he will lie or minimize about the affair.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Huh??? After 20 years?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* Timing is everything ~ but now is not the time! You had your opportunity years ago when it actually was an issue but now there is a marked presumption that despite its occurrence, peace has now and long heretofore existed!

It's a tad too late to make an issue of it now!*


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Why are you wanting to dig up something from over 20 years ago, surely you and she has made your piece about it by now? This will not end well


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

peace. I cant spell, brain not working today


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

MarriedDude said:


> Your plan is to quiz a guy about something that happened 20 years ago?
> 
> What is the point now? Why are you still with your wife if you don't believe her? What do you think will even come of this?
> 
> ...


Married Dude,

I suppose if I went back in time and know what I know now, I would not have married my W after this happened, as our love life was never the same afterward. 

Why am I still with my W, well kids, finances, I never fell out of love with my W, didn't have any emotional or physical affairs on her. After my W fell in love with OM I really thought I could bring her back to me. At the time I did not understand how powerful the emotional bonds created during an affair are.

It did not burn in me for 20 years, it more like simmered, I had bad dreams about it, the kind that would disturb you for hours after. I never really trusted her, would binge eat when she left me alone in the house. 

My W and I meeting OM a few years ago triggered this.

Tamat


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

How is your marriage now? Maybe you should consider seeing an IC to sort through your issues with this.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

TAMAT said:


> Married Dude,
> 
> I suppose if I went back in time and know what I know now, I would not have married my W after this happened, as our love life was never the same afterward.
> 
> ...


I get it. It sounds like it was never really dealt with...it was rugswept away, and here you are 20 years later...
Not over it.

You, my friend, are at decision time. I believe your kids are now grown and out of the house...correct? Now its just you and this woman that you do not trust...at least not really. 

Is this how you want to live out the next 20? Living a life if fear, binge eating, maybe begging god to see you through it? Phuck that. Choose either a new life with your wife- allowing yourself to be happy and love her.....or choose a new life without her. 

You owe it to yourself to stop living in a 20 year old shadow..im 44 yeas old, your probably right near that..how many more years do you want to lose to fear? You have now one of those rare opportunities to create for yourself heaven on earth or hell. 

I vote no more wasted years and create your heaven
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

kristin2349 said:


> It was 20 years ago, and since you weren't married it is not quite the "same as adultery" IMO. I get it still was a betrayal, but 20years later!??? If you really feel the need to talk to the OM after this length of time, that doesn't speak well for your marriage of 2 decades.
> 
> Have you told your wife you plan to do this?


No there is a chance they could get their stories straight.

Tamat


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> First answer this...
> 
> When did you find out about their relationship?


Gus,

I think I found out when OM broke up with my then GF now W. To the extent that I know anything from the really sparse information I've gotten from my W.

Tamat


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Do you know everything about that affair? Why did you meet with OM a few years ago? Who is wanting to meet with OM now and a few years ago? Does your wife feel remorse and regret for the affair? Did she help you heal by being transparent, no contact, and honest? 

I guess I'm at a loss as to why she would even want to speak with him. Why you would want to see them together. Just my opinion but I see this as playing with fire, and you are the one to be burned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> It did not burn in me for 20 years, it more like simmered, I had bad dreams about it, the kind that would disturb you for hours after. I never really trusted her, would binge eat when she left me alone in the house.


20 year later?!?

Yeah...... THIS is exactly why I choose to not reconcile. 

Too hell with this resentment crap. You clearly should of dumped her.

Reconciliation is NOT for everyone. It'd even say most people.

At this point, you need to drop it. Speaking to OM will only boost his ego.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

6301 said:


> If she cheated on you, then why did you marry her? And after 20 years, why rip the scab off?


6301,

The second time I read your response, it hit me, that it remains like a scab, not bleeding, but not healed either. I never noticed that before about that kind of statement. We often think we are healed but are not.

Tamat


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> 6301,
> 
> The second time I read your response, it hit me, that it remains like a scab, not bleeding, but not healed either. I never noticed that before about that kind of statement. We often think we are healed but are not.
> 
> Tamat




That's why rug sweeping is so dangerous. That's why the WS has to be transparent. The WS has to tell you all, not doing this leaves doubt, builds to resentment, then sits there until you can go no further. Your WS needs to own her affair, answer your questions and help you heal. But I'm guessing what you will get now is I don't remember, until the three of you meet and then your wife will remember all the details as she enjoys sitting by OM. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Eh... unless you suspect that they have reconnected in any way in more recent years, or is now a potential threat to your marriage, then I would leave well enough alone. I just don't think it'd be work the newfound heartache and stress.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

OK,

there is NOTHING to be gained by speaking with, seeing, or even thinking about an OM who was 18 years old and had something with your then girlfriend. Quit wasting energy and poisoning your life with thoughts of the OM and get into therapy. Quite frankly, you knew about this before you married your wife and IMHO have no basis for ANY resentment at all.

IMHO you have a real problem and it isn't your wife or the OM. Start working on yourself.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Please take Kando advice. All these years you never looked at it as a scab, and it messed you up. Now you KNOW you need some IC, so please seek it.
You've done your best alone while not knowing, so there is no excuse now. Heal Brother and live healthier.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Like others have said, I would let this go.

I was engaged to another man before I married my Ex Husband, it was a little over 20 years ago. I can barely remember much about him, or the relationship, and I have a pretty good memory. If his wife were to contact me and ask me questions I really can't imagine I'd be able to give her much info.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Your delayed reaction is more common than you would think. 

LOOK HERE:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/179898-will-i-forever-think-her-my-wife-cheated.html

You just put one foot in front of the other and continued in the direction you were already going. People in shock tend to put unpleasant things out of their mind and go with the flow. Your future wife was more than happy that you seemed to let it go. 

You want your wife to admit what she did and show remorse. She dodged that bullet 20 years and will not let you take another shot at her unless she’s forced. The leverage you had was to not marry her and now the only leverage you have is to threaten to divorce her. 

Your wife doesn’t want to live the rest of her life with embarrassment and guilt if she can avoid it. She also doesn’t want to put you in a position of power over her. She got away with it and there is no way she’s going to revisit the subject without a fight. She has nothing to gain and can only lose.

Believe me; I understand your need to set the record straight. But is the juice worth the squeeze? How is your marriage otherwise? Would you really rather live alone than to be with her? I think it’s best to accept the fact that you screwed up 20 years ago when you didn’t pin her down before marriage. That opportunity is gone forever. Think of what you’ve gained over the last 20 years.


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## life_huppens (Jun 3, 2015)

Are you looking for a reason to Divorce your wife?
What done is done. If relations between you and your wife are healthy, why bring skeletons from the closet?
Sometimes it is better to leave past, well in past.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> Married Dude,
> 
> After my W fell in love with OM I really thought I could bring her back to me. At the time I did not understand how powerful the emotional bonds created during an affair are.


Here's the thing Dawg. If I'm reading you correctly, ya'll weren't married at the time and she fell in love with another man. What were you doing messing with a woman that's in love with another man? If you have a son, tell him one of the most important things he need to understand when dealing with women is don't get involved with one because you love her. Make sure she loves you equally, preferably more, or let her go. And never, ever be a rebound no matter how beautiful she is. If he violates this universal laws, he'll go down in flames.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> After my W fell in love with OM I really thought I could bring her back to me. At the time I did not understand how powerful the emotional bonds created during an affair are.


Why did she come back to you and not marry the OM?


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Unless she has reconnected with him recently, or started another affair, or even if you are just plain old looking for a simple excuse to leave her, think of this:

In the end, she married you, not him.
Your children say "Dad" to you, not him.
She said goodnight to you every night, not him.
She woke up every morning to you, not him.
She was (hopefully) a good wife to you, not him.
She took your name, not his.
She made 20 years of memories with you, not him.
She stayed through good and bad with you, not him.
She stuck out the stormy weather with you, not him.

She is your wife, not his...

...enjoy her.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

life_huppens said:


> *Are you looking for a reason to Divorce your wife?*
> What done is done. If relations between you and your wife are healthy, why bring skeletons from the closet?
> Sometimes it is better to leave past, well in past.


This. They don't seem to be in contact. But it seems the OP has sort of been stalking the OM.

She bore you kids. She doesn't seem to have cheated again (but then again the OP has been very vague as to not give too many specifics about their current situation) Actually he seems to have been very vague in general.

Why now? 20 years ago. I'm not usually one for saying let it go but unless she's been in contact with him again then simple why now?

More details and less vagueness.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

F-102 said:


> Unless she has reconnected with him recently, or started another affair, or even if you are just plain old looking for a simple excuse to leave her, think of this:
> 
> In the end, she married you, not him.
> Your children say "Dad" to you, not him.
> ...


IMO, these points are not very strong if the OM didn't want a future with his wife and then the wife settled for her current husband. However, I definitely agree that meeting the OM now is a very bad idea. If the marriage has not been satisfying for many years, then the marriage should end based on its own lack of merits.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

I really think some counseling is going to be your best bet here. The affair was 20 years ago. That's so long ago. You've spent 20 years of your life thinking about this and now wanting to go talk to him? There are no words for that. You really need some help dealing with this.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

TAMAT,

1) Not Married,
2) she confessed,
3) 20 Years ago,
4) Life...Oh so short,
5) She (assume) has been faithful for 20+,
6) Time to "Let It Go",
7) Do no meet or talk with "OM".


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP sorry this is bothering you. This is another case of rug sweeping coming back to bite in the arse.

If I read this correctly, you knew and had the chance to deal with this 20 years ago.

I think you are off base to be pressuring your wife after 20-years have gone by. I also think you are even further off base to think that OM would help you in any way.

Do not talk with or contact OM.

Get some IC if you need it.

If you are looking for a reason to D your wife, and you have to search back to a 20-year old event that happened before you were married, and you knew about it back then... see where this is headed?

There comes a point when you have to accept it and her and your actions or inactions.

You knew, had the chance to deal with it and or not marry her. You made a life with her. Are you trying to mess this up?

At some point you have to accept and forgive in order to have a healthy life.

I can't remember all the details of everyone I had sex with before I met my XWW. That goes back 25 or 26 years or so. 

Good luck

WD


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

HarryDoyle said:


> I am, or was, in the same situation as you. I "just" found out on D-day (2 1/2 years ago) that my WW also had a very LTA in the late 80's with a co-worker, we had been married 7 years at the time and our son was 5. I know who the exOM was and have seen him come into my work a number of times. I thought real, real hard about confronting him but I never did. I mean what is the point? H.


Doesn't seeing the OM trigger you back to day 1, and how close does the OM live to you and especially your WW, does your WW even run into OM accidentally? Are your children at the same schools or sports teams. 

It also sounds like you have most of the details about your WWs affair. 

Tamat


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I fail to see what you hope to gain/gleen from this encounter. The OP is occupying an important place in your thoughts and emotions for something that is 20 years old. If, after all of this time has passed, you still hold on to this with such fervor as to want to approach the OM then you are certainly not healed and must have had a rough 20 years. If your wife of 20 years will not truthfully convey the events as they were, then why would you think he would?


NoChoice,

It's not so much that he will tell me all the truth, but even if he lies there will be some element of truth in it, and his body language will say something. My speaking with OM may be the spur to get my W to talk. If OM claims to have had sex 10 times with my W perhaps my W will cop to twice. It sort like the way cops talk to suspects in isolation.

Any info. if good info. as they say at google "more data is better data"

Tamat


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

workindad said:


> OP, please provide more information.
> *Working Dad*
> 
> When did you find out?
> ...


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Thor said:


> I, too, am curious what it is you wish to accomplish by talking to OM.
> 
> *Thor,*
> 
> ...


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OM- I would not expect talking to OM to help you in any way. If he knew she was your GF at the time and went on a date with the two of you- then he thought you were a chump at the time. I doubt he feels any different today. Asking him for details after 20 years will make you look like a chump. Especially if you pay him.

You've known for 20 years, knew before you married her. 

I would not reasonably expect her to remember sordid details after all this time. You had a chance to ask/demand transparency back in the day.

I do not believe it is fair to keep punishing her for this now.

You agreed to get back together with her and married her. Now it seems you are fishing for an excuse out.

If you are not fishing for a reason to blow up your marriage, then stop and get some IC for you.

There comes a time when you have to stop punishing the one who strayed if you choose to stay. I'm not sure when that is, but I'm guessing it is less than 20-years.

I hope she has been a good wife and you can find a way to redirect your thoughts and attitude to a positive manner to help your marriage continue to grow in a positive manner.

If you just want out this badly, then D. There doesn't need to be excess drama from 20-years ago. She's surely a different person today than she was back then. No need to humiliate the person who did vow to marry you and has stayed with you.

FWIW- I am not a reconcile at all costs person and have suggested D before when it seemed appropriate from my warped perspective. 

Good luck, I hope you find peace.
WD


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> NoChoice,
> 
> It's not so much that he will tell me all the truth, but even if he lies there will be some element of truth in it, and his body language will say something. My speaking with OM may be the spur to get my W to talk. *If OM claims to have had sex 10 times with my W perhaps my W will cop to twice*. It sort like the way cops talk to suspects in isolation.
> 
> ...





> She is quite embarrassed / ashamed and has an enormous problem in admitting fault. *She took decades to tell me about a man who fondled her breasts before she even met me*, for years the story was that he had just kissed her. Now that is a story I didn't even care about imagine how much less my W wants to tell me about OM.



First of all, some guy messing with her breasts BEFORE you MET HER...is none of your damn business. Really, it's just not. In my opinion, getting mad about something like that and then holding it against her is emotional abuse (and I don't throw that word around lightly. She can't help what happened BEFORE she met you, she can't change it). She didn't know you...you shame her for something she did before she met you. That's incredibly wrong. It's not like she had sex with him...and even if she did....NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You ALWAYS had the option to LEAVE if you didn't like it.

As far as the affair....

What difference does it make now? It was 20 years ago. Why would you want details now? It sounds like you're looking for an out. Why not just leave? Obviously, you're not going to be happy with anything your wife tells you so what's the plan? She tells you...or OM tells you and you just get more angry and take it out on her all over again? For what? To what end?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Tamat

Why did you meet with him several years ago with your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

drifting on said:


> Do you know everything about that affair?
> 
> *Drifting On,*
> 
> ...


*The ugliest truth is better than the most well phrased and spoken lie.*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

life_huppens said:


> Are you looking for a reason to Divorce your wife?
> What done is done. If relations between you and your wife are healthy, why bring skeletons from the closet?
> Sometimes it is better to leave past, well in past.


life_huppens,

Actually trying to avoid a divorce, which I think will the result of W continuing to stonewall me.

Tamat


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the thing Dawg. If I'm reading you correctly, ya'll weren't married at the time and she fell in love with another man. What were you doing messing with a woman that's in love with another man? If you have a son, tell him one of the most important things he need to understand when dealing with women is don't get involved with one because you love her. Make sure she loves you equally, preferably more, or let her go. And never, ever be a rebound no matter how beautiful she is. If he violates this universal laws, he'll go down in flames.


*The Phoenix,

Let me make this clear, I was dating my W exclusively for about 8 years before OM happened.

Never in my life with one exception did I interfere with anyone in a relationship. The one exception being an emotional affair I had with a married woman when I was 16. I have since made my apologies to her H. 

Tamat*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Graywolf2 said:


> Why did she come back to you and not marry the OM?


*Greywolf,

I would suppose because I had better financial prospects, was more caring, was better at fixing things, was more broad minded and intelligent, she liked my parent more than OMs. 

Also the OM appears to broken up with my W. This is one fact my W would surely like me never to know. OM may have broken up with my W because he knew there was no long term chances, he knew what I would have done at that time. 

Tamat *


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Why don't you just tell your wife, "This has been bothering me for 20 years and I will not wait another 20 minutes. Either you tell me EXACTLY what happened or we will be divorced." 

Honestly, you say she's remorseless and she even goes so far as to say "you're lucky I didn't pick him" so WHY do you even want to continue being in this plan B relationship your in?


What could the OM possibly tell you that will make ANYTHING better. Hell, I'll give you all the answers you want right now:

1) Was he the best lover you ever had? Yes, it was hot and heavy.

2) How many times did you do it? I lost count. Everywhere and anywhere.

3) Were you in love with him? He is my soul mate.

4) Did you do things for the OM that you haven't for me? All kinds of freaky stuff.


These are the answers 99% of cheaters give so there you go. Now you don't have to go groveling to OM and make him think you're an even bigger fool then he already does.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> Doesn't seeing the OM trigger you back to day 1, and how close does the OM live to you and especially your WW, does your WW even run into OM accidentally? Are your children at the same schools or sports teams.
> 
> It also sounds like you have most of the details about your WWs affair.
> 
> Tamat


Of course there's a trigger but I rarely see him and haven't for awhile. But he isn't anything like he was 25 years ago, he's kind of a dofus if you ask me. He lives all the way on the other side of town. My WW encounters him once in awhile, but I'm not worried about him anymore. He has no children and mine are all adults so that's not an issue. I still have trouble looking at photos from that time period though, that's the biggest trigger. 

I'm one of "those" people who has to have the details and I made it a condition of our reconciliation. My WW didn't have to tell me about the first one, but she did so I pretty much trust that she's told me just about everything. She's pretty much done everything I've asked of her and is a completely different person, so for now I just let it go. Time does heal, but time moves slowly in this sort of thing.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

BobSimmons said:


> This. They don't seem to be in contact. But it seems the OP has sort of been stalking the OM.
> 
> She bore you kids. She doesn't seem to have cheated again (but then again the OP has been very vague as to not give too many specifics about their current situation) Actually he seems to have been very vague in general.
> 
> ...


*Bob,

Because it is time to bring this to a close somehow. And there are a number of outcomes along a spectrum depending on the details.

Tamat*


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

I may sound bitter. But I am speaking from my own personal experiences. You will never get the truth from the OM or your Wife. And no matter what they tell you, you are foolish to believe. You need to decide if you are ok with the worst case scenario, and live with that.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Wouldn't it better for you just to drop the issue instead of dredging up something that happened so long ago before you were even married?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> *Greywolf,
> 
> I would suppose because I had better financial prospects, was more caring, was better at fixing things, was more broad minded and intelligent, she liked my parent more than OMs.
> 
> *


In your case, it seems that for whatever reason, your wife chose you over the other man. That is very important. 

For your sake, you won't be happy after confronting the OM about something that happened so long ago in a very different part of life. You will not get any answers that you are looking for and will likely wish that you hadn't contacted him.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> I think I found out when OM broke up with my then GF now W.
> 
> My W came to me crying that she would never have feeling for me ever again, I had to guess what the issue was
> 
> Yes but I did not see it as an affair, I didn't know what it was.


Ok Tam, school me on what happened. I'm "assuming" and you know what assume means. When she told you she would never have feelings for you again, it looks like a shot across the bow. Why would you continue with a woman who told you that? Its sound like she was pretty up front about where you stood with her. Its like now, 20 years later, you have buyers remorse after you apparently continued to date and marry her. I'd had to throw in the towel if a woman told me she'd never have feeling for me. 
Dawg, it sounds like you knew exactly what you were getting into and you accepted her, as is, with full knowledge that the relationship wasn't as exclusive as you originally believed.
Where am I going wrong?

And along with your saying, "The ugliest truth is better than the most well phrased and spoken lie", remember this one; "the more you sir sh-t the worse it stinks."


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

TAMAT said:


> *Bob,
> 
> Because it is time to bring this to a close somehow. And there are a number of outcomes along a spectrum depending on the details.
> 
> Tamat*


I would agree you really do need to bring this to a close. It sounds like this has been a thorn in your side for such a long time..

Have you considered that simply because you have poured so much of your energy into this that the reality (whatever that really was) will simply pale in comparison to what you have imagined? This alone could cause you to never believe the truth (even if you were to get it) because the truth will never live up to the fantasy version?

On another note - - -You said something about your wife telling you that you were "lucky" that she chose you..when did she say that and in what context exactly? 

You do realize that her spewing that out is about the easiest softball setup you could ever have...right?

Possible responses...just a few:

"And all this time I thought he was the lucky one"

" Well, dear maybe so, but in the realm of lucky, this would rate more like finding a penny compared to winning the powerball"

"Good to hear baby, show me why I'm so lucky"

" It was really a no brainer for you...duh"

"Actually sweety...you were the lucky one in that scenario" 

"Luck assumes I had no control...it's cute that you still think that"

and so forth.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

TAMAT said:


> Originally Posted by workindad View Post
> OP, please provide more information.
> Working Dad
> 
> ...


OP, sadly your wife told you the honest truth and this haunts you to this day, to your core.

Your obsession over this is now understandable. 

As I see it you have two choices now. One, forget about the OM and confront your wife and make it explicitly clear that you can no longer tolerate being her "plan B". Either she shows you the honor, respect and "love" you deserve or it is over, period. Two, forget the OM, accept that what your wife told you is essentially true, stop trying to "prove" that she is over the OM by trying to dredge up 20 year old facts, come to terms with the life you have had and accept it being the same going forward. In other words, accept your position as second fiddle and move on. 

You are not trying to rip a scab off you are continually picking at it, with assistance from your wife, and keeping the wound from healing. If you hope to heal you must either accept what is or demand change, even if it means D. It is regrettable that you did not tell your then GF that, in light of her never being able to have feelings for you again, your relationship is over. Now you must deal with the consequences of that error.

Talking with the OM will not help this issue, only you can correct this situation. No matter the "data" you collect the final calculations will be the same, YOU must make a choice. You are desperately trying to prove to yourself that your GF did not mean what she said and it is consuming you, twenty years and counting. Make it stop, one way or the other and accept your decision so you can have some peace over this. I sincerely wish you the best outcome possible for your happiness.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

staarz21 said:


> First of all, some guy messing with her breasts BEFORE you MET HER...is none of your damn business. Really, it's just not. In my opinion, getting mad about something like that and then holding it against her is emotional abuse (and I don't throw that word around lightly. She can't help what happened BEFORE she met you, she can't change it). She didn't know you...you shame her for something she did before she met you. That's incredibly wrong. It's not like she had sex with him...and even if she did....NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You ALWAYS had the option to LEAVE if you didn't like it.
> 
> Staarz,
> 
> ...


*It makes a difference because the sexual details, which W said she will never tell me, will determine my response within a range of gradations.

Not looking for an out, just looking for the truth, which might lead to an out

I will never take it out on my W and never have.*


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Dude,

This situation is on you. You knew about it, and married her, so what is it that you want?

Firstly, get clear on what you'd do if they had crazy monkey sex 100 times. Are you going to leave your wife of 20 years?

See, the problem isn't him. The problem is you, and the problem is your wife.

Your problem is you married her anyway, and after her devoting two decades to you, you decide you have a problem with it now. Your other problem is that you're expecting her to remember what happened with this loser 20 years ago. I don't remember most women's names that I've had sex with, and forget about what we actually did together... that cache got cleared long ago. Her memory has been overwritten thousands of times with justifications, romanticisms, and all kinds of other things so the truth likely isn't really there any more.

Her problem is she doesn't see a problem with getting exited to see him, or hugging him when she does. And not being transparent about what happened. Poor boundaries with that one.

Me, I'd talk to him.

I'd call him up, meet him at a pub, sit him down, and say "did you **** my wife when she was my girlfriend?" And then make it abundantly clear that if he touches my wife again, bad things are going to happen (non-violently).

And then be careful what more you ask for. Because it was 20 years ago. And you married her knowing it.

And then I'd sit my wife down, tell her that I've talked to him, and to come clean with what she remembers... and you'll stay with her no matter what she says. But it has to be honest with what she remembers.

And then I'd set some hardcore boundaries -- zero contact with this guy, ever again.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Posters,

The current state of my marriage.

2008 my W was getting involved with an 80 something year old dude, taking him places, I don't believe anything happened or could have happened. The things she said to me then were just like the things I learned are cliche for people who are in affairs or getting their emotional needs met by someone else. This shook me up really bad. 

2008 I did a number of 180s and started meeting my Ws needs without expectation that she would return the kindness. At first my W thought I was trying to manipulate her, but eventually saw that I was serious and did not intend to go back to a marriage of mutual bickering and indifference. 

My W wrote me letters telling me that she was now happy in our marriage, and thanking God in her prayers for this turnaround. I'm not saying that I deserved such praise, but it is a fact my W said these things. 

The act of improving my marriage made me want to clear up that ugly blemish from our past, which I had previously accepted as a cost of marrying a woman who was so much better looking than myself. Like the way chemo is the cost of curing cancer.

Paradoxically having improved my marriage made my W, at first , slightly more willing to speak about OM, but longer term W shut down as she did not want to undo what we gained.

To this day my W is happy with the way I respect and love her, she has other complaints, but everyone does. 

To be clear about my Ws character she is not, I believe, a serial cheater and is viewed as a saintly person by most people we know. 

Tamat


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Posters,

Thank You to everyone who wrote me, with the holiday coming up I may not be able to response for a few days, but I will try to answer questions which were asked when I get back

Tamat


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Tamat,

okay let's play this out 

what pieces are you trying to put together?
do you honestly think he (OM)will tell you every thing?
Is there a point in your discovery process where you pull the D card with your wife or is this a exercise in mental anguish? 
I only say that because once know you can not un-know it.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Graywolf2 said:


> Your delayed reaction is more common than you would think.
> 
> LOOK HERE:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/179898-will-i-forever-think-her-my-wife-cheated.html
> ...


Greywolf,

Very well put together response, Thank You.

Tamat


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> First of all, some guy messing with her breasts BEFORE you MET HER...is none of your damn business. Really, it's just not. In my opinion, getting mad about something like that and then holding it against her is emotional abuse *(and I don't throw that word around lightly*.


Apparently you do since it's uncalled for and doesn't apply here. That is such a leap to make. Maybe actually read *TAMAT*'s posts and follow the thread before you comment and make accusations.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> 2008 my W was getting involved with an 80 something year old dude


Common man..... Please.

I'm out of this thread. Other people need real help.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Common man..... Please.
> 
> I'm out of this thread. Other people need real help.



I'm officially not buying this anymore. The whole story is simply too absurd IMO.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TAMAT said:


> *It makes a difference because the sexual details, which W said she will never tell me, will determine my response within a range of gradations.
> 
> Not looking for an out, just looking for the truth, which might lead to an out
> 
> I will never take it out on my W and never have.*


You said that you do not really know what the relationship was.

Have you outright asked your wife if she had sex with the guy? If so did she say something like "I will never tell you." or did she say something like "We never had sex."


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> Common man..... Please.
> 
> I'm out of this thread. Other people need real help.


BetrayedDad,

That's fine, I appreciate what you wrote already, however this is what really happened and it triggered the current state of my marriage for good and for ill. 

I almost didn't want to post what I did, and as I said it was not an affair, but was inappropriate, and believe it or I did not sleep for days when my W started this, until I told her not to associate with him.

As background the old guy was an old player who cheated on his W alot in his younger days and knew just what to say to women. My W had to visit a Drs office where he got to talk with her on a weekly basis. 

I am not making this up I don't get my jollies telling lies on an anonymous forum.

Tamat


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Common man..... Please.
> 
> I'm out of this thread. Other people need real help.


Really?_ Really?_:scratchhead:

You don't think this kind of stuff happens in real life?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Keep in mind that if you talk to him, he will most likely contact your wife to warn her.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Tamat,

I can only speak for myself as a man and a BS. I believe all men should confront the OM if THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. I believe it is your right, or entitlement, as he invaded your family. To me if does not matter that the WS accepted or welcomed (walk away spouse), the advances of the OM. This is to me you protecting your family. With your WW not giving you complete transparency at the time means you rug swept the affair. The details were not addressed and after time passes it has come to the surface. This was most likely triggered by seeing him several years ago.

I can tell you when your WW sees him those memories RETURN. So her not remembering would be a crock of sh-t. The OM shielding his kids from you is a clear example he most certainly remembers. So how do you get the full story? From what you have posted of your wife I imagine she is good looking. She is most likely reserved in nature and makes friends easily. Her reputation is vital to her as to be seen as a "good girl". She is probably shy to an extent and easily embarrassed. So that presents a big problem to you in your search for the truth. 

She will not confess these details easily. She will be adamant in not discussing these details which will provoke her to say hurtful comments. Hence the your lucky I married you or whatever that comment was. I believe she I truly remorseful but can't show this side to you. She is basically humiliated and regretful that she allowed herself to be with him while in a relationship with you. Rather than face that demon she would rather take it to her grave.

Now this will give you some insight as to what most likely happened. It is my opinion that he was shall we say freaky in bed and got her to do things she never imagined she would do. This is probably why she would rather be divorced then to have to tell you. I'm not saying she wants a divorce, probably far from it, but she would prefer divorce then humiliate herself again.

This is my opinion based on your posts and my working with people. You are in a tough spot, but in this case I almost have to agree that confronting him will hurt you. There is no telling he will say anything even with threats or money. I think you need to be vulnerable with your wife, express how this affected you and how the both of you handled this in the worst way. She may give you some information but you won't get all that you need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* Which preemptively means why so many of us here at TAM have heartily recommended that "no contact" with this guy is prohibitively the best policy!

To even consider meeting with him does nothing more than to feed some latent psychological insecurity of yours!*


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

oko said:


> This poor guy asked in his very first post on this thread how is the best way to approach the OM.
> 
> I don't think even one person answered his question!
> 
> ...


To some questions the only answer is "no."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

oko said:


> That much being said he (OM) has no reason to be honest with you especially if he's still on good terms with your wife which appears to be the case. His goal will be to get away from you as quickly as possible with the least amount of hassle, so his answers will be as brief as possible and designed so as not to trigger you.


I agree with the above. The smart thing to do is to drop it and be happy with what you’ve gained in the last 20 years. In a way your wife is being punished for being so prim and proper. Because she’s so good you raised the bar. 

People bitterly complain about the U.S. Their complaints may be valid but they forget that they’re holding the U.S. to a higher standard than they do other countries. They subconsciously give the other countries a pass.

*Your wife is a diamond.

"Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."
—Confucius
*


If you absolutely must pursue this I would never contact the OM. I would monitor your wife’s means of communication by using the following advice:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

When it’s all in place tell your wife that you can’t let it go and are going to ask the OM. She will try and talk you out of it and may be willing to add some information to stop you. You also may have a big fight. If she can’t stop you she will contact the OM. She will do this NOT to warn him (he wouldn’t say anything explicit anyway) but to minimize the awkwardness of the situation.

After the dust settles you can tell her that you thought about it and she was right. It would be stupid to confront the OM so you didn’t.

Like I said it’s best to let this go and enjoy the life you’ve built with your wife. No matter what you do ultimately, never contact the OM. It’s feeble. I say this because you knew about their involvement 20 years ago, did nothing and married her. 

If you had no idea and just found out that’s a completely different story. Hell, if I just found out my wife had an affair 40 years ago I would confront the OM.

Good luck.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TAMAT said:


> If OM claims to have had sex 10 times with my W perhaps my W will cop to twice. It sort like the way cops talk to suspects in isolation.


I bet neither he nor your wife remember any real details. They may remember a generalized impression, e.g. "lots of sex", or "some sex". There may be one specific event which sticks in one of their minds.

The human memory is very fallible. You are *not* going to get good data from either one of them, even if they tried to give you an honest answer.

And, I understand your feelings on this! But talking to OM to get info from him is not going to resolve anything.

I think the only resolution will come from two places. One is IC for yourself. Not that you're crazy or even unreasonable in this, just that you need some guided discussions so you can find some peace. Secondly, talking with your wife. This is where I think IC can help, too, by giving you some guidance on how to approach her.

I would not approach your wife with an accusation or anything like that. Rather, I would _report_ to her your feelings. Tell her that it makes you upset when you run into OM. Tell her it makes you upset when she runs into OM. Tell her that all these memories and feelings which had been buried for so long are being stirred up by being back in these surroundings.

Your wife is the one who can heal you. If you read "After the Affair" by Janis Spring you will see how this works. But the time for accusations and recriminations is long gone. I hope your wife shows she is sorry for what she did, and shows concern for your unhappiness.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TAMAT said:


> *It makes a difference because the sexual details, which W said she will never tell me, will determine my response within a range of gradations.*


This is important. What you have is a stand off. You have certain needs which directly conflict with her needs. I have a better idea now of what is going on.

She never told you the full truth because she knew it exceeded what you would tolerate. You can bet the farm on this. If all she did was go on some dates with the guy and kiss him once, she'd tell you that. She insist on it, she'd cry and beg your forgiveness for kissing the guy.

Why didn't she tell you the full truth anyway, knowing it exceeded your limits? This is what causes you the deep pain, imo. If she loved you, and/or respected you, she would have confessed and begged forgiveness. But she decided to let you twist in the wind because she saw she could get away with not telling you, and she could still get to keep you.

The question now is, does she love you and respect you today?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Thor said:


> I bet neither he nor your wife remember any real details. They may remember a generalized impression, e.g. "lots of sex", or "some sex".


If a man's wife looks at another man and thinks anything but, "I'm glad my ex is just an old time memory. I wouldn't change anything about what I have for the world", either you're married to the wrong chick or you're doing something wrong.
All this about the right to query an ex boyfriend decades later, questioning the validity of an 20 year old marriage and a wife's love, paying the ex boyfriend for testimony, worrying about 'the whole story' years and years later, gives new meaning to the phase, "love can be painful".


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Thor said:


> I would not approach your wife with an accusation or anything like that. Rather, I would _report_ to her your feelings. Tell her that it makes you upset when you run into OM. Tell her it makes you upset when she runs into OM. Tell her that all these memories and feelings which had been buried for so long are being stirred up by being back in these surroundings.


This is very good. She needs to know how you feel so she can better understand you and why you're acting the way you are right now. Do this even if you decide to let it go.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

marduk said:


> Dude,
> 
> *Maruk,*
> 
> ...


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Xenote said:


> Tamat,
> 
> okay let's play this out
> 
> ...


*Xenote,

Do I think the OM will tell me everything, no, it's a bit like asking me if I open a certain book will it have the answer I am looking for.

There is a joke about a drunk who keeps looking for his keys on the nightstand they aren't there, but it is the only place he knows to look. In fact there are other sources, my W, other coworkers. 

I know I can't unknow, but given a choice of being divorced because of the truth, or continuing my now relatively happy marriage without the truth, I would take the first option.

Tamat *


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> You said that you do not really know what the relationship was.
> 
> Have you outright asked your wife if she had sex with the guy? If so did she say something like "I will never tell you." or did she say something like "We never had sex."


*EleGirl,

Yes I have asked W the answer has been inconsistent over time, mostly it's denial but she also said she would never tell me those details. Last time I asked she said "he never touched me", however knowing my W her answer was likely qualified with a footnote of "after I married Tamat". 

I know she remembers what went on, she just doesn't remember what she told me from time to time.

She knows I consider kissing as sex, in fact more intimate than sex in many ways. 

Tamat*


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Is there a ton of beating around the bush going on here? If you want to talk to this guy, do it. But you'll have to be prepared with how you want to handle it if he's uncooperative, or a smart ass. By that I mean you'd better be willing and able to either knock him down, or walk away without giving a shlt.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> *
> I know I can't unknow, but given a choice of being divorced because of the truth, or continuing my now relatively happy marriage without the truth, I would take the first option.
> 
> Tamat *


Are you saying if they had sex, you're going to divorce her? If not, how much "truth" will it take for you to say, I'm out"?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Are you saying if they had sex, you're going to divorce her? If not, how much "truth" will it take for you to say, I'm out"?


And what if his reply is a puzzled and genuine: "*What* did you say your wife's name was?"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Tamat,

How old are your children?


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> Apparently you do since it's uncalled for and doesn't apply here. That is such a leap to make. Maybe actually read *TAMAT*'s posts and follow the thread before you comment and make accusations.


Don't presume to KNOW me. You can read any and ALL of my posts here...and RARELY do I mention abuse...

It IS called for in this situation. His wife *CANNOT* change what she did *BEFORE* she met him. If he did not care for what she told him...or doesn't care for it now...then he needs to leave her and STOP thinking about something she did BEFORE HIM. 

I did read his post. My opinion still stands. Being mad at her for something she did BEFORE they met is uncalled for. Period. If he can't live with it, he is more than free to leave. 

As far as talking to the OM...it's not going to make a difference. He is still going to be mad. The details of something that happened 20 years ago are not really going to make him feel any better than he does right now. In fact, he's probably going to feel worse when it's all said and done.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

how about you just move on, and say 'if you want me back, give me proof about this stuff'?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Staarz,

I posted this before, but I'll repost it to keep this from going off track.

The story about the guy touching my Ws breasts is a story my W willingly told me, and then felt guilty about for years and years because she did not tell me the full truth. I have never made her feel guilty about nor even mentioned it to her.

I told this story as an illustration of my Ws extreme sense of guilt and inability to admit fault. I never held it against her nor pressured her for details about relationships before me.

I've told her everything I ever did sexually and every woman who makes a pass at me. 

Tamat


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

turnera said:


> how about you just move on, and say 'if you want me back, give me proof about this stuff'?


How can she prove, or disprove, things from 20 years ago?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Tell you what Ele, if I were giving his wife recommendations it would be to tell him if he's not satisfied with the marriage and support she's provided to him for the last 20 years, to pack his shyt and git. I would tell him crap because all that's going to happen is her getting pounded for more information. Ain't no way she should have to entertain this nonsense.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Tell you what Ele, if I were giving his wife recommendations it would be to tell him if he's not satisfied with the marriage and support she's provided to him for the last 20 years, to pack his shyt and git. I would tell him crap because all that's going to happen is her getting pounded for more information. Ain't no way she should have to entertain this nonsense.


I agree.

OP married her knowing that something had gone on. It should have been dealt with 20 years ago before they married.

Now, there is no way she can prove or disprove anything. And I don't think that OP would be satisfied with any information. There will always be doubt and more questions.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Simple truth is she wants to keep the detail secrete so she does not have you knowing how sexual she was with POSOM as you will likely divorce. She still has very fond memories of him. Why else would she be excited seeing him now. She does not want you in those memories because three is a crowd maybe why she has stonewalled and trickle truths you for 20 yrs. 

I would just say she has to come clean with all details and pass poly or you are filing for divorce


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> It IS called for in this situation. His wife *CANNOT* change what she did *BEFORE* she met him. If he did not care for what she told him...or doesn't care for it now...then he needs to leave her and STOP thinking about something she did BEFORE HIM.
> 
> I did read his post. My opinion still stands. *Being mad at her for something she did BEFORE they met is uncalled for. Period.* If he can't live with it, he is more than free to leave.


You refered to TAMAT being mad at his wife for having someone fondle her breasts (before he met her) and holding at against her as emotional abuse.

She volunteered that information to him (sometimes couples do share and speak to each other about past relationships and sexual activity) and felt guilty over it. As he's written twice now, he has never pressured her for details of her past relationships (she volunteered that information), nor has he been mad at her over it or held it against her.

Her guilt over the breast fondle story arises from the fact that when she _willingly_ told him that story, she said that she had only kissed him (the one who fondled her breasts) and held this version/lie up for years until she told him what actually happened.

He only used that story as an example to illustrate his wife's guilt and inability to admit fault, which would explain why she is unlikely to provide him with information of when she cheated on him.



staarz21 said:


> First of all, some guy messing with her breasts BEFORE you MET HER...is none of your damn business. Really, it's just not. In my opinion, getting mad about something like that and then holding it against her is emotional abuse (and I don't throw that word around lightly. She can't help what happened BEFORE she met you, she can't change it).


You wrote that him being mad at her over the breast fondle story and holding it against her is emotional abuse. Nowhere in his posts does he say that he is mad at her over it or that he holds it against her.
He states explicitly that he has never held it against her, pressured her for details, made her feel guilty about it, he has _never even mentioned it to her_ and it's not even a story that he cares about. 

Emotional abuse is characterized as abusive behaviour that one is subjected to that results in some form of trauma, PTSD, fear, depression or anxiety.

_If_ TAMAT was mad at his wife and had held anything that she did before she met him against her, and demonstrated psychologically abusive behaviour towards her and it resulted in trauma, PTSD, fear, depression, anxiety or whatever in his wife, then yes, that would be considered emotional abuse; but that's not the case.



TAMAT said:


> *I never held it against her nor pressured her for details about relationships before me. *





TAMAT said:


> I have never made her feel guilty about nor even mentioned it to her.


So if it says anywhere on his posts that he is mad at her and does hold it/has held it against her then please _quote_ it because I might have missed it. Otherwise, I don't see how that constitutes as emotional abuse on his part.


TAMAT's wife cheated on him about a year before they wed, while they were together (they'd been in an exclusive eight-year relationship at that point).

She _returned_ to TAMAT after her lover broke up with her and basically rugswept what happend. In fact she has told him that he is lucky that she did not stay with her lover.

Her unfaithfullness was never addressed and has been an issue for him since it happened, he hasn't had any closure about it.




staarz21 said:


> As far as talking to the OM...it's not going to make a difference. He is still going to be mad. The details of something that happened 20 years ago are not really going to make him feel any better than he does right now. In fact, he's probably going to feel worse when it's all said and done.


Obviously he's likely to still be mad or feel worse if he talks to the ex-lover and learns of what actually happened then but who's to say that that's necessarily a bad thing. This is anger that he should have felt and addressed two decades ago that he has kept buried. She never disclosed any information regarding what happened and he never had/pursued the opportunity to work through it and reconcile his feelings and emotions over it. At least now he's making the effort to confront what happened and get closure.

His story is not unique, and I don't know anyone that would feel any different if their partner/spouse cheated on them and the issue was left unresolved.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> How can she prove, or disprove, things from 20 years ago?


Exactly my point.


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> * In fact there are other sources, my W, other coworkers.
> 
> I know I can't unknow, but given a choice of being divorced because of the truth, or continuing my now relatively happy marriage without the truth, I would take the first option.
> 
> Tamat *


OP,

Even if OM would respond to your questions, how would you know he is telling the truth? The issue I see here you won't believe into something you don't want to believe. 

Ask your wife to take Poly - that's probably the only way to find out - and make your decision based on the outcome.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

The OM may well embellish the story just to piss you off, Tamat. Some people are just ash holes like that. Whatever he says, you cannot believe any of it. Nor can you accurately divine anything by reading between the lines or watching his body language. There is just no way to get any useful information from talking with him.

I don't want to write a long story about my own experiences, but I will say I seriously considered contacting an old friend of mine who may have either been an OM (low likelihood), or may have known of my wife cheating (moderate likelihood) from about 25 yrs ago. I never did contact him because I realized there was nothing believable about what he might say. There are a multitude of motivations, all of which would be to not tell the truth.

Yes, you should have dealt with this 20 yrs ago. But you did what you thought was best at the time. I am less harsh than others about your position being your fault. She is the one who cheated, and she is the one who failed to give you answers to your questions back then. You are culpable for accepting it at the time, yes.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> You refered to TAMAT being mad at his wife for having someone fondle her breasts (before he met her) and holding at against her as emotional abuse.
> 
> She volunteered that information to him (sometimes couples do share and speak to each other about past relationships and sexual activity) and felt guilty over it. As he's written twice now, he has never pressured her for details of her past relationships (she volunteered that information), nor has he been mad at her over it or held it against her.
> 
> ...


While I understand where you're coming from....

I don't believe for one second that he has not mentioned the breast fondling to his W since she told him the truth. 

Why?

Because he's still angry about an affair that happened 20 years ago. If he's mad about something that happened 20 years ago, and he's mentioned the breast fondling...it's likely he's upset about it. There are a few men on TAM that have retro active jealousy of things their wives did from before. It's not unheard of. 

I know he's posted that she volunteered the information. However, he is using this information to show how his wife feels guilt...

You have to wonder why she lied about something like this to begin with. She didn't feel safe telling him this information. Why? It's not like she slept with the man. She thought her H would think ill of her if she told him the truth. Why would she feel that way?

The answer lies in the OP still being upset about an affair that happened 20 years ago. He's clearly not able to let things go even after two decades. 

My answer would be completely different if he was talking about all of this happening like 3 - 5 years ago. We're talking 20 years for the affair and even longer for the breast fondling. She has been feeling guilty their entire relationship. A person shouldn't feel guilty for most of their life. 

Now, here she is having to re live the affair again, because the OP didn't deal with this before. So...she is STILL having to feel guilt for something she did so long ago. 

If the OP was that angry...he should have left. Staying with her and now wanting to talk to the OM does constitute as a form of abuse...not only to her, but to himself. 

There is absolutely NO good reason to go and talk to him. He is looking for an out. To do that, he has to have a good reason, he is trying to find a hole in a story from 20 years ago. 

He needs serious counseling.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

QFT.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> His story is not unique, and I don't know anyone that would feel any different if their partner/spouse cheated on them and the issue was left unresolved.


I wanted to add that my H cheated on me. It wasn't resolved. I won't get the full story...ever. I had to make a decision. Could I live with not knowing the full story?

I made my choice. I can't sit there and guilt trip him for the next 20 years - it would be incredibly wrong. If he does it again, different story. Until then, I've made my decision. 

The OP "made the decision" to stay with his wife. The OM isn't going to just sit down with him and tell him full on details of something that happened 20 years ago. He probably doesn't even remember what happened then. I sure as hell don't remember crap I did 20 years ago.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP, 

I do believe this is a classic example of what can and does happen with rug sweeping.

A few more questions.

Does your wife deny you sex or oral/anal? Are you concerned that she gave something to him that you are not permitted?

I'm trying to understand your thought process, but struggling to get there.

Obviously, it was more than he touched my breasts- or she would have told that you already know everything. With that in mind, it is a very good bet that this was a full blown sexual affair especially with her emotions at the time as you have described.

Is there a child of sufficient age that you may not be the father of?

I would insist that she have no contact with the guy, outside of that I'm struggling to see what other options you have outside of IC, acceptance and being thankful for a happy marriage, or filing for D and moving on.

You did marry her and start a family with her knowing that she had a relationship with OM. Your wife's guilt and shame seem to be clear indicators that it was more than he touched my breasts. You can either accept that she had sex with this guy 20-years ago or you can't.

I hope you find peace.
WD


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Also, the last thing you should do is stoke OM's ego by going to him with a question about what he may have done 20-years ago with your now wife.

He will not be a reliable source. He will likely blab to everyone about what a great job he did screwing your wife 20-years ago since it is still an issue in your marriage.

All you will do is embarrass yourself and your family.

WD


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Thor said:


> The OM may well embellish the story just to piss you off, Tamat. Some people are just ash holes like that. Whatever he says, you cannot believe any of it. Nor can you accurately divine anything by reading between the lines or watching his body language. There is just no way to get any useful information from talking with him.


If you got any self confidence in your own love making skill you don't sit around wringing your hands worrying and playing your own version of porno mind movies about what she did with past boyfriends and if you "have all the information" which in reality hoping it wasn't better and more exciting with him. 
When you're married to a woman that been married before and had a few boyfriends before you, you don't uselessly dwell on such crap. 
Besides that, when you know after years of being married you still cause rhythmic muscle contractions in "that" area, feel her pulse rate and breathing increase, her skin flush and rosy and her unable to contain her moans, you don't have to worry about what the other guy(s) had.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*INtheory,*

Yes, good-looking people will always have the chance to have sex with far more people than unattractive people will. That's a law of life.

And I would guess that her good looks were the reason that you "overlooked" her pre-marital hook-up.

You got what you wanted all along. A woman who was "out of your league", and you knew it. You had your eye candy, and your ego had a feeling of triumph around other guys; look what I've got. I won.

Very strange analogy to use for marrying a beautiful woman; chemotherapy and cancer, yikes.

* I meant more that adultery and cheating were like cancer, 

There is also an aspect of life with a beautiful spouse that eats away at the less attractive spouse slowly, especially mine since her personality is very attractive as well.* 

I do admire your honesty though.

Could this be an issue for you now, because your wife's prettiness is starting to fade, 20 years later???

*Interesting point, but actually I don't think so, thus far my attraction for her is undiminished. *

Don't confront this guy. You will make a complete laughingstock of yourself. A funny story for him to turn around and tell his friends the first chance he gets.[/QUOTE]


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Keep in mind that if you talk to him, he will most likely contact your wife to warn her.


*EleGirl,

I spoke to OM last year and he barely knew how to use his phone, he may have been playing dumb, and he has a tiny online footprint. I suspect he might not know how to tack down my W.

I did not get a chance to ask OM about the affair, as his children were there. 

Tamat
*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*Oko,
*

This poor guy asked in his very first post on this thread how is the best way to approach the OM.

I don't think even one person answered his question!

Everyone is all about "don't do it, it's foolish, it's pointless, etc".

*That's fine I like the range of opinions and experience being offered. It's ok that some are horrified by what I am doing.
*

That's not what he's here for, people this isn't about what you think he should do, it's his choice, he's already made it and he's asking for help implementing it. Why can't people read and understand?

Anyway I think giving him money is a bad idea it makes you look desperate and won't get you any further in regards to what you might learn from him. Be friendly, nonantagonistic, and just put it out there. That much being said he has no reason to be honest with you especially if he's still on good terms with your wife which appears to be the case. His goal will be to get away from you as quickly as possible with the least amount of hassle, so his answers will be as brief as possible and designed so as not to trigger you. So don't expect him to say "Yeah she loved it when I rammed it in her a$$ and then pulled out and shot it on her face" even if that's true.

*He still likes my W, "is on good terms", my W however would rather not see him again at least if I am interpreting what I saw when they ran into each other correctly.

Thank You
Tamat*


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP- if you have a sense that this guy would still like to chase your wife and she doesn't want to see him again.

Then the only speaking I would do with OM would be to tell him to stay away from your family.

Do not ask him for a thing. Do not give him any power over the situation. Don't ask him to stay away. TELL him.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

This thread is another clear example of why BS's here are constantly told DO NOT RUGSWEEP THE A.

Yet some are so terrified of losing their 'wonderful' partner that they cannot seem to help themselves.

And then so many of these rugsweeping BS's seem to live in torment for years or even decades.

They have done it to themselves, unfortunately.

Lesson for other posters here....DON'T RUGSWEEP!!!!


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> While I understand where you're coming from....


Wow, this is actually unbelievable. It's like for whatever reason you're so prepared to vilify and believe the worst of TAMAT, even though there's information here that is contrary to what you claim.

He writes that he has never mentioned, guilted or held the breast-fondle story over his wife and you're like _"I don't believe for one second that he has not mentioned the breast fondling to his W since she told him the truth."_

Then there's:


staarz21 said:


> You have to wonder why she lied about something like this to begin with. She didn't feel safe telling him this information. Why? It's not like she slept with the man. She thought her H would think ill of her if she told him the truth. Why would she feel that way?
> 
> The answer lies in the OP still being upset about an affair that happened 20 years ago. He's clearly not able to let things go even after two decades.


Why would one have to wonder why she lied, people lie. She cheated on him so it's not unreasonable to think that she is capable of being untruthful or deceptive. I mean, how is it that she choses to lie and somehow it's a reflection on him? If she didn't feel safe telling him the truth about her and breast-fondler-man then why would she _willingly_ bring up the story in the first place. You're so convinved that he's this jealous, abusive, angry husband, so ready to make these awful assumptions about him, why isn't her character in question?



staarz21 said:


> Staying with her and now wanting to talk to the OM does constitute as a form of abuse.


Okay so him wanting to talk to the other man is _now_ also abuse. You claimed before that him being mad at his wife and holding something that she did before he met her was the emotional abuse, even though that wasn't the case and now it's this instead. She isn't even aware that he wants to contact the other man, so how does this now constitute as a form of abuse? Seems like you're really adamant on pushing this whole abuse agenda no matter what.



staarz21 said:


> The OM isn't going to just sit down with him and tell him full on details of something that happened 20 years ago. He probably doesn't even remember what happened then. I sure as hell don't remember crap I did 20 years ago.


TAMAT's stated that he _doesn't_ expect the ex-lover to tell him the full details of everything that happened, but that maybe whatever little information (truthful or not) he does receive and the ex-lover's body language might prove useful and also that his talking with him might motivate his wife to disclose what happened.


TAMAT said:


> It's not so much that he will tell me all the truth, but even if he lies there will be some element of truth in it, and his body language will say something. My speaking with OM may be the spur to get my W to talk.


And yes, the ex-lover and his wife may not recall specific details of what happened long ago, like what perfume his wife smelled of and what she wore when, but I'm sure they'd both be able to recall if they had sex or not and if so, whether it occurred more than once.





staarz21 said:


> If the OP was that angry...he should have left.


Yeah, perhaps he should have left, but the person he is now is not the person he was twenty years ago.


TAMAT said:


> I suppose if I went back in time and know what I know now, I would not have married my W after this happened, as our love life was never the same afterward.






staarz21 said:


> The answer lies in the OP still being upset about an affair that happened 20 years ago. He's clearly not able to let things go even after two decades.


You've referred to her unfaithfulness as _something_ that happened 20 years ago, which totally minimizes what happened and its affect(s).

Adultery can be traumatic and destructive. It can end marriages, break families apart, end friendships, ruins careers, and can lead to homicide and/or suicide. The betrayed spouse is left with hurt, pain, depression, anger, trust issues, shame, PTSD-like symptoms and the emotional and psychological pain associated with trauma. As with any trauma, if it's not dealt with and resolved, it and its affect can persist and permeate into all aspect of one's life.

TAMAT wanting to know the truth and still having this affect him does not make him resentful, angry, bitter, unreasonable or _constitute as a form of abuse_.. it makes him very human, so let's not simplify what happened to him and expect that he just move on.

He has lived his life and tried to move on but this is something that has been with him since it happened:


TAMAT said:


> It did not burn in me for 20 years, it more like simmered, I had bad dreams about it, the kind that would disturb you for hours after. I never really trusted her, would binge eat when she left me alone in the house.





TAMAT said:


> We often think we are healed but are not.



In regard to his wife's unfaithfulness he has stated:


TAMAT said:


> I will never take it out on my W and never have.



His wife's sketchy behaviour in recent years is what brought this to the surface for him to try to seek answers:


TAMAT said:


> 2008 my W was getting involved with an 80 something year old dude, taking him places, I don't believe anything happened or could have happened. The things she said to me then were just like the things I learned are cliche for people who are in affairs or getting their emotional needs met by someone else. This shook me up really bad.





TAMAT said:


> I almost didn't want to post what I did, and as I said it was not an affair, but was inappropriate, and believe it or I did not sleep for days when my W started this, until I told her not to associate with him





TAMAT said:


> W denies anything happened that night, even denies things W had already told me.


Also his wife's delight at meeting her ex-lover.


TAMAT said:


> * About 10 years ago Myself and family, ran into OM/family, OM acted very strangely didn't want me to see his children protective body language, my W on the other hand was very excited. Brought the memories really back to life.*


*

As well as this:


TAMAT said:



The act of improving my marriage made me want to clear up that ugly blemish from our past

Click to expand...


It's sad actually that he came here asking for advice on how to approach his wife's ex-lover for answers and instead of advice he's called resentful, angry, emotionally abusive, a stupid insecure fool, and basically told to get over it or that he needs councelling because there's something wrong with him.
Well yeah there's something wrong with him, that fact that his wife cheated on him and he has no information on what happened and never got to resolve his emotions over it is what's wrong with him. It's like there's no empathy and understanding?*


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> Well yeah there's something wrong with him, that fact that his wife cheated on him and he has no information on what happened and never got to resolve his emotions over it is what's wrong with him. It's like there's no empathy and understanding?



Here's why he getting little sympathy. If he goes talk to the other man 20 years after the so-called affair that occurred before they married, his actions are going to look foolish, whether folks think he's got a "right" to confront the other boyfriend or not. There ain't no way around it.
Second, he went forward marrying her knowing full well she was seeing this other guy as well as him. She did not misrepresent her strong feelings for the other boyfriend and by his own admission, told him, "that she would never have feeling for me ever again". What would the woman have to do not to understate and lye about her relationship with this "OM", publish it in the newspaper? 
Based on Tamat's willingness and even eagerness to enter into the marriage while at the time being well informed that her other relationships was more than friends, the analysis that she somehow tricked and deceived him fall short as an issue of fact. What he should have done was tell her, "look babe, our time together was fun but I can see your interested in Joey so I'm bowing out. I hope you and him have a wonderful life together. Instead, he willfully said, "I do". (after maybe having months to plan the wedding, the honeymoon, a bachelor party and driving himself to the wedding. So yes, he can pin the tail on himself for the problem he's having; not on her of the other man.
On the matter of her perceived as excited to see him means little. If she's as socially skilled as Tamat has us believe, its probably her well-established way of dealing with social situations. Knowing women like I do, take my word for it that's a damn sight better than like a former student of mine who, when her husband was in the field, would flash beaver at me in class and be all over me like a cheap suit when needed help, but then shy, timid, and stand-offish, when he was around.
They were both my students and no, I didn't mess with her. I've never messed with students, except my wife, who was no longer a student.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's why he getting little sympathy. If he goes talk to the other man 20 years after the so-called affair that occurred before they married, his actions are going to look foolish, whether folks think he's got a "right" to confront the other boyfriend or not. There ain't no way around it.


He's getting little sympathy because talking to the other man might make him look foolish, really?.. Okay, let's say he ends up looking foolish to some people.. so? Why should he care, why should how others perceive him be of concern to him, opinions are subjective. How does the possibility of him looking foolish to someone affect his life?
I don't think someone's judgment and opinion of how he might appear should affect their ability to sympathize. Shouldn't the fact that he is struggling, unsettled and looking for help be enough to warrant some measure of understanding and compassion.

If there's a slight chance that he might receive details on what happened or that it results in his wife talking to him about it and he's able to attain some form of closure then that's what should matter.



ThePheonix said:


> Second, he went forward marrying her knowing full well she was seeing this other guy as well as him. She did not misrepresent her strong feelings for the other boyfriend and by his own admission, told him, "that she would never have feeling for me ever again".





ThePheonix said:


> So yes, he can pin the tail on himself for the problem he's having; not on her of the other man.


He's also receiving little sympathy because he chose to remain with his then girlfriend and marry her..

There are posters and stories here of men and women whose spouses/significant others have been unfaithful in the past or are currently involved in adulterous behaviour that have chosen to remain in their relationships. It's not that unusual for someone to stay with their partner after they've been cheated on. Should they all also receive little sympathy?

It's easy enough to say that he shouldn't have married her but a lot of people do exactly what he has done. It's different when you're in the situation, when you've spent and shared your life with someone and you're hurt but you love the person who's hurt you. When you love someone you make allowances, you compromise and hope that things improve, you either find the strength to stay or are too weak to leave. Whatever the reason, infidelity doesn't end all relationships, at least not immediately.

We're all familiar with terms like like rug-sweeping, gas-lighting, blame-shifting and other matters relating to infidelity and red-flags one should avoid or be cautious of. I'm sure that TAMAT wasn't aware and didn't have this information available to him 20 years ago or know enough to seek it out. I didn't know these terms until I joined TaM.

I don't think anyone has said that he was tricked or deceived but he did only find out about her cheating after it had ended. Also he wasn't in some random relationship when she cheated on him, he was with her exclusively for eighty years. That's longer than some marriages last these days. It's not that easy for a lot of people to just walk away.



ThePheonix said:


> On the matter of her perceived as excited to see him means little.


I don't know how you can dismiss or downplay this. This is or should be considered a red-flag, it's no little thing, especially given the shared history between his wife and her former paramour.

He's being faulted for choices he made when he was younger. The person he is now isn't the person he was 20 years ago and he has stated that if he could go back, he would have left.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

TAMAT,

I have been trying to understand what you hope to accomplish from speaking with the OM. The only reason I would meet with him is to do what Marduk suggests, which would be to tell him to stay away from my wife. Beyond that there is only one reason in my estimation.

Now I'm no psychologist but it would seem to me that the most hurtful thing she said was that she would never feel the same way about you after her tryst with OM. To me, that would be what hurt. Finding out how many times that she had sex with him is irrelevant unless you're trying to justify a separation, divorce or a potential affair. It seems to me that you've got a bit of Buyer's Remorse, as The Pheonix said, and now perhaps regret how you handled that situation 20 years ago.

Since you can't go back and redo or undo how you handled it, that situation has simmered in you for all this time. Perhaps you feel like knowing she lied to you about it will somehow give you extra courage and motivation to act out somehow or even leave her. I don't even know if you consciously believe you would do that but somehow feel the need to find this out. For whatever reason, I totally understand this need. It's as if this knowledge would give you options and power that for whatever reason you don't believe exist now. That's simply not true but I understand the mindset.

The reality is that you probably feel like her second choice or Plan B, if you like, and this doesn't sit well with you. Combine that with how the whole previous situation was rugswept and you have the makings of a festering resentment that just won't go away. Do what I call, "chase the fear" in this situation. What is it that you are really afraid of? Most of our actions in life or intense emotions are driven by fear so figure out what that is and address it. For me, and I can't caveat this enough, that fear would be that she doesn't really love you and maybe never really has, not like a wife is supposed to anyway. Perhaps you think that by talking with OM and hearing more information than you previously had heard would somehow validate this fear once and for all. It won't. It won't because he won't tell you and even if he was willing, he likely can't remember much of any detail. It likely wasn't that important a relationship to him.

I would imagine that you want to know where you stand now and that you don't want to be anyone's second choice any longer. I would be afraid that I'd spent 20 years of my life in this situation already and I don't want to live another 20 that way with a person who sometimes secretly wishes they ended up with somebody else. That would kill me. Perhaps you're afraid that discovering the complete truth would mean you have to take radical action. Perhaps even action that would be difficult and scary. I totally get that.

So I think you have three options here, some having been previously stated. The first option is that you forgive her and more importantly, forgive yourself for your real or perceived failings in how you handled it. I think IC could be helpful here. That would be the easiest on the relationship but likely the hardest one to do.

The second action is to sit down with her and have an incredibly forthcoming discussion about how you feel now, how you handled the situation back then and what you need to hear and feel from her in order to be confident and remain in the relationship. I can only guess at what that might be. I would imagine that being her priority or feeling special as her man or something to that effect would need to be clearly communicated and felt. I would think that you'd need to express these concerns in the context of it being a show-stopper or a deal breaker if you weren't convinced that you were her top choice.

The third option is to just divorce her and move on with your life. That's a better option than just living with festering resentment.

I believe that I would pursue option 2 as that has the best chance of addressing your real fear, as I see it anyway, of not being her first choice. You need to be convinced that she loves you and chose you for that reason. Perhaps she made a huge mistake back then and then realized that you were her top guy or maybe she has come to that realization over the last decade or so. Either way, I think it needs to be out in the open and discussed. She needs to understand where you are in this and how serious it is for you. You shouldn't suffer in silence because you never talked with her and had the chance to clear the air and perhaps let her help you move past this. 

Anyway, I wish you all the best.


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## tears (Jul 31, 2012)

My heart breaks for the 20 years you've had this festering in the back of your mind. You need to speak to a therapist who can help you sort out issues related to retroactive jealousy. I'd like to add here that your feeling jealous, inadequate and ultimately unfulfilled is completely normal for a person who's had to fend off shadows for the past 20 years. 

But you can get over it, without having to talk to the OM. He does not merit any consideration at this point in time simply because he was an opportunistic bastard. While no one would fault you for walking away, I'm going to assume that you do not want to do that - which is why you're here asking for help. 

Just letting it go is not an option as some have suggested. You've already tried to do it earlier and its evident that you're not any closer to achieving that sense of peace and contentment that you're searching for.

What you can do is hash it out with your wife. You need to lay it all out - your feelings, your hurt, everything. But you have to do it in a way that lets your wife not go into a defensive shell. You have to understand that when people are cornered into shame or guilt - they generally lash out. Your wife has to feel your pain and put her guilt aside if she wants to soothe you. If she does love you, then its very well possible that she's afraid of the day you'll dredge the affair up and things might come crashing down so she's doing her own share of rug-sweeping by pretending that it never happened or by not wanting to talk about it as was implied from your meeting the OM earlier. 

The question that would naturally arise is, how do you go about broaching the topic so as not to come off as if you're attacking her?
You need to put it across in a way that presents your pain as a larger entity that what "she did to you". That means having a sit down and explaining to her clearly how you've felt and continue to feel over the issue and not about the role she had to play in it. It isn't easy to not lash out in anger and resentment but you have to make an effort. You need to express how low you've been feeling for having gone through that rather than have her explain what she did or the specifics. If she's remorseful, she'll ask you what needs to be done from her end in order for you both to heal and move forward at which point you could suggest marriage counselling and a timeline(remembering dates and number of times might be difficult given how long ago it was but it should not be hard to recall the gist of it if you give her a bit of time).

If she isn't remorseful or forthcoming, well you tried your best. You would again have a choice to make between letting it go(once you're done expressing yourself) or divorce whichever you feel is best.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> It's sad actually that he came here asking for advice on how to approach his wife's ex-lover for answers and instead of advice he's called resentful, angry, emotionally abusive, a stupid insecure fool, and basically told to get over it or that he needs councelling because there's something wrong with him.


I agree about the abuse moving goal posts, but no resentment? Something IS wrong with him if he is waking from dreams worried for hours. Especially, if it is still occurring 20 years later. 

The "simmering" QUOTE, in this context, mixed in with the night terrors is built up resentment.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"This is horrible. I think that it's pretty s****y for someone to intentionally cause another a tremendous amount of pain and then just expect them to live with it/get over it with no effort on their part to address and make amends for the hurt that they've caused."

I couldn't agree more....but the WS can only get away with this if the BS decides to rugsweep out of fear or terror at the time of discovery.

If a BS is still struggling years or decades later...it is because THEY have allowed this crap to occur.

As ugly as this situation is, however, I still think a BS has the right to hold a WS accountable after they finally pull their head out of their own a**, even if its decades later.

The problem is waiting so long, especially if the M has been infidelity free and good since the A, will usually cause much more resentment and anger from the WS when the showdown occurs.....the WS should still accept though that the sh*t storm is one of their own creation since they couldn't keep their pants on in the first place.

Once again, this added ugliness never happens if a BS does not rugsweep at the outset.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> if the M has been infidelity free and good since the A,.


According to him, the marriage has always been entirley infidelity free.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

phillyandswiss,

Yeah....he has.

That's what makes his situation so especially crappy.

Other posters have been right....this SHOULD have been resolved 20 years ago.

But he rugswept, probably out of fear of losing her at the time, and now he is paying the price for that decision.

He STILL has the right for accountability IMO.....she STILL was a worthless cheat 20 years ago, and he has a right to demand what he needs to come to terms with it.

It's just sad that it has taken two decades for him to come to terms with things he SHOULD have dealt with all those years ago.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> When you love someone you make allowances, you compromise and hope that things improve, you either find the strength to stay or are too weak to leave. Whatever the reason, infidelity doesn't end all relationships, at least not immediately.
> 
> When you do that you accept and assumes the risk associated with the past indiscretion. Many are already married long term and don't enjoy the options unmarried individuals have. Based on what TAMAT said, there was no misrepresentation on her part and he knew the situation long before he pulled the trigger on the wedding. If he wants to lay awake at night second guessing himself for marrying her, he needs to remember who it was that decided to do it. You know, be accountable for your actions. He apparently let his wants for a beautiful woman overload his azz. All I can tell him is he knew from jump street what he was getting into. If there was rug-sweeping, he was doing it to score a beautiful wife.
> 
> ...


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Locke, clearly I have made you trigger as it seems you feel strongly about this particular subject. For that, I am sorry. 

I've been on the other side of someone trying to make me feel guilty about something I didn't even do, but had it set in their mind that I did. It was awful. I hated living every day knowing that I was just a disappointment to that person. That person would never allow me to be good enough for them. 

Now, I can only imagine if I did do what this person was accusing me of. I would feel terrible beyond belief. To live that way every single day of my life would have been hell. 

Eventually, I became strong. I wasn't afraid to tell this person where they could shove their accusations and resentment/hate toward me. I made a decision to leave. No way was I going to live the rest of my life like that.

Honestly, I think his wife should do just that. I think she should tell him her side of the story again, because clearly a 20 year, infidelity free marriage wasn't enough for her to prove to him that she screwed up 20 years ago. If he can't live with that, I think she should leave. If I were her, I would. 

I hate cheaters as much as the next person, but if someone has proven themselves for 20 years...come on. Even she deserves forgiveness.




> Her unfaithfullness was never addressed and has been an issue for him since it happened, he hasn't had any closure about it.



That wasn't her fault. He *chose* not to address it. He *chose* to marry her after knowing she had been with someone else. He *chose* to stay with her 5, 10, 15, and even 20 years longer. He *chose *not to address it during any of those years. 

*HE CHOSE. *

This is why it's hard for some of us here to understand his intentions. He's admitted that she's been faithful the entire time. I think talking to the OM is a huge mistake. The guy has children now, a life, he's moved on from it. He isn't going to remember the details of that affair. 

I guess I don't understand what the OP's goal is in talking to the OM. If he isn't happy with the way his life turned out, then he should get some counseling and figure out how to fix that. If he has to separate from his W to do that...okay. However, it's JUST as nasty to live a lie for 20 years...that's what the OP did. He lived a lie for 20 years. His W thought everything worked out - how wrong was she? She is on the verge of losing her marriage...even after she stayed faithful for 20 years. There is a time to deal with an affair...that is IMMEDIATELY. If you can't deal with it immediately...deal with it within the first year. I really don't understand waiting two decades.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*Greywolf2,*

I agree with the above. The smart thing to do is to drop it and be happy with what you’ve gained in the last 20 years. In a way your wife is being punished for being so prim and proper. Because she’s so good you raised the bar. 

*Good point I'm not sure how to process this yet.*

People bitterly complain about the U.S. Their complaints may be valid but they forget that they’re holding the U.S. to a higher standard than they do other countries. They subconsciously give the other countries a pass.

*Your wife is a diamond.

"Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."
—Confucius
*


If you absolutely must pursue this I would never contact the OM. I would monitor your wife’s means of communication by using the following advice:

*I already have a keylogger, she barely texts/dumb phone, so I've got the snooping channels in place, I don't believe anything is going on now. I do not have a GPS on her car however.*

When it’s all in place tell your wife that you can’t let it go and are going to ask the OM. She will try and talk you out of it and may be willing to add some information to stop you. You also may have a big fight. If she can’t stop you she will contact the OM. She will do this NOT to warn him (he wouldn’t say anything explicit anyway) but to minimize the awkwardness of the situation.

After the dust settles you can tell her that you thought about it and she was right. It would be stupid to confront the OM so you didn’t.

Like I said it’s best to let this go and enjoy the life you’ve built with your wife. No matter what you do ultimately, never contact the OM. It’s feeble. I say this because you knew about their involvement 20 years ago, did nothing and married her. 

If you had no idea and just found out that’s a completely different story. Hell, if I just found out my wife had an affair 40 years ago I would confront the OM.

*Thank You 
Tamat*


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> I couldn't agree more....but the WS can only get away with this if the BS decides to rugsweep out of fear or terror at the time of discovery.
> 
> If a BS is still struggling years or decades later...it is because THEY have allowed this crap to occur.


Let's get back to reality. There is no wayward spouse or betrayed spouse here. The OP had a girlfriend who had a relationship with another man. He married her afterwards and has poisoned his mind with jealousy and resentment of his own making. Not worth furtehr dicussion, IMHO

Bye


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> *Greywolf2,*
> 
> *I already have a keylogger, she barely texts/dumb phone, so I've got the snooping channels in place, I don't believe anything is going on now. I do not have a GPS on her car however.*


Either there is more to this story than you're telling us or you're one paranoid SOB.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Because when I see some women I was with years ago, I'm excited and glad to see them because we had a lot in common, I liked them and am both curious and hope they are doing well. Doesn't mean I want to jump in the sack with them nor them with me.


No off course not, but that's not even remotely similar to TAMAT's situation. I think it's safe to assume that you weren't unfaithful to your wife with the women you mentioned.
If your spouse had cheated on you at some point in your relationship and you two ran into her former other man and she appeared excited to see him, I'm sure you'd be disconcerted to witness that, at the very least slightly unnerved. That is the position TAMAT was in, it wasn't his wife's friend, coworker or former boyfriend of long ago, it was the man that she cheated on him with.



ThePheonix said:


> And yes, he's being faulted to decision he made when her was younger. We all are, and we live our life today because of decisions we made when we were younger. Who do you blame for that?


This is what I'm trying to get at, why is it necessary to blame anyone? No one here (including TAMAT himself) is ignorant of the fact that he chose to remain with his wife/then girlfriend and marry her after she cheated on him. We all know that his life now is the result of the decisions he (and his wife) made. How is it helpful or constructive to_ repeatedly_ tell him that it's his own fault for staying with her, he knew the deal, to get over it and that he should have left her then.

This is (supposed to be) a forum that offers support. Instead, this thread has evolved into pages of negative comments and insults directed at TAMAT.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> If your spouse had cheated on you at some point in your relationship and you two ran into her former other man and she appeared excited to see him, I'm sure you'd be disconcerted to witness that, at the very least slightly unnerved.


Point taken.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Locke, clearly I have made you trigger as it seems you feel strongly about this particular subject. For that, I am sorry.


Hehe, _clearly_. Oh my God no, not triggering, emotional, hysterical or whatever. That's actually a little patronizing, though I'm sure that wasn't your intention. I'm just having a tough time comprehending why some posters here are being so horrible to someone who's asked for advice.



staarz21 said:


> I've been on the other side of someone trying to make me feel guilty about something I didn't even do, but had it set in their mind that I did. It was awful. I hated living every day knowing that I was just a disappointment to that person. That person would never allow me to be good enough for them.





staarz21 said:


> Eventually, I became strong. I wasn't afraid to tell this person where they could shove their accusations and resentment/hate toward me. I made a decision to leave. No way was I going to live the rest of my life like that.


What you described happened to you, well yes, that _is_ totally emotional abuse, but TAMAT's situation is not that. He hasn't been accusing or trying to make his wife feel guilty about something that she didn't do (which she did). For the most part it appears that he's lived a content life and tried to live with his wife's unfaithfulness.

Maybe I'm off with this but it does seem like you're projecting your experience into this situation, and in this, his wife is in the position you were but your stories are totally different. His wife/then girlfriend did cheat on him. You were innocent of what you were being accused of, and what you went through was manipulative, controlling and abusive. He hasn't treated his wife that way. He hasn't harassed, badgered or tried to guilt her for what she did, he's endured it in silence for most of their marriage.





staarz21 said:


> I think she should tell him her side of the story again,


I agree that she should tell him but that's the issue though, that she hasn't told him her side of the story. She has shared very little with him and that's why he's resorted to wanting to talk to the other man. His wife has refused to talk to him about it. He wasn't even aware that she was cheating on him until after she was dumped by her other man.



staarz21 said:


> I guess I don't understand what the OP's goal is in talking to the OM.


I think his goal is to just find out what actually happened. To find out the extent of the relationship between his wife and the other man, its duration, the depth of their involvement and whether the relationship was sexual in nature. And even if it was twenty years ago I'm sure the other man can answer 'yes' or 'no' to 'Did you two have sex?', no eidetic memory required.



staarz21 said:


> If he isn't happy with the way his life turned out, then he should get some counselling and figure out how to fix that.


This is his way of trying to fix that. Founding out information of what happened might be what he needs to move past this and deal with it. If he has the details of what happened, then he has a picture of what went on and that is something that he can work with and decide upon.

People require information to make decisions. If he finds out that his wife slept with the other man once he might be like "Screw this s***, this marriage is over!" or find it a relief that they'd only slept together once and not the the crazy rounds of monkey sex that his mind had imagined and be able to move on.

He can't reconcile or forgive the unknown.



Locke.Stratos said:


> Her unfaithfulness was never addressed and has been an issue for him since it happened, he hasn't had any closure about it.





staarz21 said:


> That wasn't her fault. He *chose* not to address it. He *chose* to marry her after knowing she had been with someone else. He *chose* to stay with her 5, 10, 15, and even 20 years longer. He *chose* not to address it during any of those years.


Well that's not entirely accurate. I do agree with you on his choice to marry her knowing she had cheated and his choice stay with her but he's mentioned that he has tried to address/talk to her about it.

So, in regard to choices..

It was her fault (as well) because she _chose_ to cheat on him. He tried several times to address it with her throughout the years and she _chose_ not to communicate and discuss it with him. She knew that it troubled him all these years and _chose_ not to do anything to help him get closure. She _chose_ not to offer him some form of apology or demonstrate regret at having hurt him.



staarz21 said:


> However, it's JUST as nasty to live a lie for 20 years...that's what the OP did. He lived a lie for 20 years. His W thought everything worked out - how wrong was she?


His wife was aware that he still had an issue with her having cheated on him. He hasn't kept the fact that this was still with him hidden from her.




staarz21 said:


> There is a time to deal with an affair...that is IMMEDIATELY. If you can't deal with it immediately...deal with it within the first year. I really don't understand waiting two decades.


I don't agree with this because it's unrealistic. In this section alone there are several threads by posters who are still struggling after several years, even those who've divorced and ended their relationships.

People are different and there are several factors that contribute to and determine how someone deals with an affair, anything from: shock, denial, age, gender, coping ability, maturity, personality type, past experience, the duration of the relationship, a support system to the length of the affair.

It's been stated that it generally takes a minimum of at least two years to recover from infidelity. Immediately would be great but it's not really practical to place a timetable on someone's ability to deal with an affair.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> Hehe, _clearly_. Oh my God no, not triggering, emotional, hysterical or whatever. That's actually a little patronizing, though I'm sure that wasn't your intention. I'm just having a tough time comprehending why some posters here are being so horrible to someone who's asked for advice.


If you can't take an apology...stop quoting me. I was being sincere.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Locke.Stratos said:


> Hehe, _clearly_. Oh my God no, not triggering, emotional, hysterical or whatever. That's actually a little patronizing, though I'm sure that wasn't your intention. I'm just having a tough time comprehending why some posters here are being so horrible to someone who's asked for advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay Locke, you win the argument. The OP has no issues at all.

You said he hasn't mentioned the affair to her in all these years because that's what HE said. I wonder if he mentioned the keylogger to her or the fact that he checks her phone hmm?

If he's mentioned those things, he's brought the affair up all these years. In addition to that, you said that she knew he had a problem with the affair after they married...how the hell would she know if he had a problem with it if he never talked about it? If he never brought it up? In order for people to understand each other - communication needs to take place. If he never talked about it like he says, she wouldn't even have a clue he was still so messed up about it. 

And NO. It's not normal to stew on an affair for 20 years. 3-5 years okay. If you're still p*ssed 10 years later....LEAVE.

I'm out of this thread.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

Think there's a misunderstanding here.


staarz21 said:


> You said he hasn't mentioned the affair to her in all these years because that's what HE said.


I never wrote that TAMAT hasn't mentioned the affair in all these years. I've written that he *HAS* mentioned it and tried to communicate with his wife about it.


Locke.Stratos said:


> he's mentioned that he has tried to address/talk to her about it.





Locke.Stratos said:


> He tried several times to address it with her throughout the years





Locke.Stratos said:


> He hasn't kept the fact that this was still with him hidden from her.


I think you misunderstood that with this:


Locke.Stratos said:


> *He writes that he has never mentioned*, guilted or held the breast-fondle story over his wife


Which is a few pages back and refers to the breast fondle-story and not his wife being unfaithful. And I've also mentioned that TAMAT has issues.

Thought I'd try to clear that up since your previous post concerns comments I didn't make.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Personal said:


> Unless they were married, engaged or cohabiting together in a De facto relationship she had no formal obligation to him, therefore she did nothing wrong.
> 
> That said, it shouldn't be that surprising considering there was 8 long years of just dating before she was involved with another.


I'm not sure if you just forgot to add an "exclusive" relationship to your list above or not but surely, if you're in an exclusive relationship and one partner messes around with someone else, then they absolutely did something wrong.

It matters not that they dated for 8 years. For all we know, she may have been the reason why the courtship was so long prior to marriage. I would also add that if you wished to fool around or date someone else, she should have had the decency to terminate their relationship prior to those actions.

She was completely in the wrong with her actions. I can't see what angle you are using here because it makes no sense,.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Personal said:


> Where I come from dating is usually about testing potential partners for compatibility in order to determine who is worth offering and or accepting a commitment like marriage to.
> 
> Absent such a commitment like being married, engaged or cohabiting together in a legal De facto relationship" you've got nothing!
> 
> ...



I don't think you define dating any differently than most do. It's a litmus test, if you will, to determine if you are compatible.

I would differ from you in that there is a sequence of events that happens prior to getting engaged and then married. Typically, you date and then date exclusively for a while, not 8 years usually, but then you get engaged and married.

I'm almost positive that is the way most everybody does it. I would not, for instance, just be dating the field and pop the "do you want to get married" question on some girl that had no idea it was coming. I don't think anyone does that, except maybe in some silly romance movie.

The reality is that there is usually a good while in the dating only one another phase before it progresses to being engaged.

Unlike you, however, I do think it is right to presume someone will be faithful during this period. Obviously, that's not always the case and could be used to disqualify them as a marriage candidate. It should be commonplace to accept decent moral and ethical behavior from someone you are dating exclusively IMO. That just seems awfully cynical to think otherwise or one needs to up the quality of whom they are dating.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Personal said:


> Unless they were married, engaged or cohabiting together in a De facto relationship she had no formal obligation to him, therefore she did nothing wrong.
> 
> That said, it shouldn't be that surprising considering there was 8 long years of just dating before she was involved with another. Surely she may have been thinking, Tamat wasn't going to commit himself to her through marriage so what does it matter if he can't be bothered.
> 
> ...


An absolutely perfect analysis based on the information provided.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

InTheory,

Still hear, just need to time to read, reflect and respond. I try to batch process

Yes I need to give a more detailed time line.

Tamat


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Personal said:


> Unless they were married, engaged or cohabiting together in a De facto relationship she had no formal obligation to him, *therefore she did nothing wrong.*


Huh? :scratchhead:

Last time I checked, sleeping with someone else when you're in an exclusive one-on-one relationship is a no-no, married or not. While it's true they had no _formal_ commitment, I certainly think the expectation of couples is to remain faithful to each other. Unless they had an agreement for an "open" relationship.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> Huh? :scratchhead:
> 
> Last time I checked, sleeping with someone else when you're in an exclusive one-on-one relationship is a no-no.


YES, even where i live... in crazy town, WV


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

And an "exclusive" relationship is something that is mutually agreed by both parties. Merely dating and sleeping together is not in and of itself is an exclusive relationship. The fact that one or both are seeing other people renders it non-exclusive despite what one party believes.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> And an "exclusive" relationship is something that is mutually agreed by both parties. Merely dating and sleeping together is not in and of itself is an exclusive relationship. The fact that one or both are seeing other people renders it non-exclusive despite what one party believes.



Yep, we're all just making assumptions here. Could you date someone for 8 years and have it be just casual? I suppose but that seems very unusual.

It's more likely that they were in some kind of exclusive (date only each other) mode but OP has never really clarified that nor why they dated so long prior to marriage.

It may have been her decision, his decision or a mutual one. We can only guess but I do think that is relevant to know.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Mostlycontent said:


> Yep, we're all just making assumptions here. Could you date someone for 8 years and have it be just casual? I suppose but that seems very unusual.


My observation has been when you date a woman much more than a year, you better make it damn clear what your intentions are and follow it up in a reasonable length of time. If you don't, she's gonna be looking for better offers and likely finding men that talk just as sweet as you.
I'm gonna call this one like I see it. The presence of the other man made old TAMAT quit dragging his feet and head to the alter. Now after 20 years of marriage he's still stinging because she forced his hand after 8 years of playing house. He's pissed because she used another man to gain control and stop him for stringing her along and keeping his option open several more years.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> I wonder if Tamat is coming back?


2 days? We've seen much longer disappearances. He sees 8 years as similar to marriage, where others are saying he is going overboard. He's felt this way for decades. It is a ton to process, let alone change his current way of thinking if he chooses that route.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Okay, so you plan to approach him despite all the warnings. Then here is how to do it:

1.) Tell your wife that the fact she slept with this guy 20 years ago still bothers you. That he bothers you and that she shouldn't be on good terms with him. In fact, she should have no contact with him whatsoever. That she isn't to reach out to him, and if she bumps into him at the grocery store to keep moving and pretend she doesn't know him. That you will notify him of as much.

2.) When you see him, tell him that you know she slept with him and that because of that, he needs to leave her, you and your family alone. That he should not contact your wife ever. And that if he does you will consider it harassment and take appropriate action. 

If he has a story to tell, he may at this time volunteer it. If not, let it go. As long as there is no other contact with him, move along. However if he and your wife continue to have contact, or make a big deal out of how it's not big deal and you are over reacting. Well, then that's a red flag that you'll want to dig into.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*Drifting on,

Quite insightful post, what I didn't know about affairs years back was how they follow a playbook, and are all the same.*

I can only speak for myself as a man and a BS. I believe all men should confront the OM if THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. I believe it is your right, or entitlement, as he invaded your family. To me if does not matter that the WS accepted or welcomed (walk away spouse), the advances of the OM. This is to me you protecting your family. With your WW not giving you complete transparency at the time means you rug swept the affair. The details were not addressed and after time passes it has come to the surface. This was most likely triggered by seeing him several years ago.

* Yes seeing him several years ago started the ball rolling.*

I can tell you when your WW sees him those memories RETURN. So her not remembering would be a crock of sh-t. The OM shielding his kids from you is a clear example he most certainly remembers. So how do you get the full story? From what you have posted of your wife I imagine she is good looking. She is most likely reserved in nature and makes friends easily. Her reputation is vital to her as to be seen as a "good girl". She is probably shy to an extent and easily embarrassed. So that presents a big problem to you in your search for the truth. 

* She values her reputation hugely, and not only does she make friends easily, but people will tell me they "fall in love with her". But you are right about the shyness which she covers up with a sociable personality and tries never to be wrong, by having a likeable personality she avoids questions about her intelligence, lack of knowledge or level of success etc.*

She will not confess these details easily. She will be adamant in not discussing these details which will provoke her to say hurtful comments. Hence the your lucky I married you or whatever that comment was. I believe she I truly remorseful but can't show this side to you. She is basically humiliated and regretful that she allowed herself to be with him while in a relationship with you. Rather than face that demon she would rather take it to her grave.

*Agreed, she has remorse, but cannot admit, this is a trait in her family, the appearance of moral/behavioral faultlessness is vital. *

Now this will give you some insight as to what most likely happened. It is my opinion that he was shall we say freaky in bed and got her to do things she never imagined she would do. This is probably why she would rather be divorced then to have to tell you. I'm not saying she wants a divorce, probably far from it, but she would prefer divorce then humiliate herself again.

*I agree and given the intense emotions surrounding this event in her life there is no way she has forgotten. There was another man besides OM at the same workplace I think she was involved with, but I suspect that one was a one time event. If she confesses to OM she likely thinks the other time would spill out.*

This is my opinion based on your posts and my working with people. You are in a tough spot, but in this case I almost have to agree that confronting him will hurt you. There is no telling he will say anything even with threats or money. I think you need to be vulnerable with your wife, express how this affected you and how the both of you handled this in the worst way. She may give you some information but you won't get all that you need.

*Thank You for your observations and insight.
Tamat*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like she has Toxic Shame.
What is Toxic Shame? | Psych Central


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*Thor,*

This is important. What you have is a stand off. You have certain needs which directly conflict with her needs. I have a better idea now of what is going on.

She never told you the full truth because she knew it exceeded what you would tolerate. You can bet the farm on this. If all she did was go on some dates with the guy and kiss him once, she'd tell you that. She insist on it, she'd cry and beg your forgiveness for kissing the guy.

*I think she knows even kissing might result in divorce, one time I mentioned to her how kissing was never the same after OM and she got very quiet. At other times when I ask her about kissing she says it's not her thing or mumbles something about HPV. 

In some ways it's not so much the kissing with OM which must have occurred, but the years of passionless kissing with me which is the stinger.*

Why didn't she tell you the full truth anyway, knowing it exceeded your limits? This is what causes you the deep pain, imo. If she loved you, and/or respected you, she would have confessed and begged forgiveness. But she decided to let you twist in the wind because she saw she could get away with not telling you, and she could still get to keep you.

The question now is, does she love you and respect you today?

*She loves me now, at least after I started meeting her needs in 2008, does she respect me, more a of difficult question to answer.

Tamat*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

MattMatt;

And what if his reply is a puzzled and genuine: "*What* did you say your wife's name was?"

*When I spoke with him last year he knew who I was and he knew very well who my W is, actually he was making statements to explain what went on. I did not ask THE QUESTION because OMs kids were there. 

OM remembers very well the kind of things I used to do back then, which may be part of the reason he was making those explanations.

TAMAT *


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

So you're saying she still doesn't kiss you like she used too? That hurts.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

EleGirl;

OP married her knowing that something had gone on. It should have been dealt with 20 years ago before they married.

Now, there is no way she can prove or disprove anything. And I don't think that OP would be satisfied with any information. There will always be doubt and more questions.

* I agree, it may have even been an only one time event for all I know, however I do know that something happened, and she wants to keep the lid on it. 

I was at a mall, 2008 time frame, when she had a terrified response when she misunderstood me as saying I saw one of OMs co-workers. This is the one I suspect she had a one timer with.

My Ws MO is that after making such a mistake she recovers and adapts never mentioning it again. 

Thank You
Tamat*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Starraz, 

You Wrote...I don't believe for one second that he has not mentioned the breast fondling to his W since she told him the truth. 

*I have never mentioned this event, why would I, it was before I was on the scene. If she had contracted a STD she never told me about, was married previously or worked as a prostitute before she met me I would likely have an issue.

Tamat *


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*staarz*

I wanted to add that my H cheated on me. It wasn't resolved. I won't get the full story...ever. I had to make a decision. Could I live with not knowing the full story?

I made my choice. I can't sit there and guilt trip him for the next 20 years - it would be incredibly wrong. If he does it again, different story. Until then, I've made my decision. 

The OP "made the decision" to stay with his wife. The OM isn't going to just sit down with him and tell him full on details of something that happened 20 years ago. He probably doesn't even remember what happened then. I sure as hell don't remember crap I did 20 years ago.

*So you are content that your H shares secrets with OW that he does not share with you? Have you gotten a polygraph for your H, have you spoken with OW or more importantly OWH?

Tamat
*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*workindad;*

I do believe this is a classic example of what can and does happen with rug sweeping.

A few more questions.

Does your wife deny you sex or oral/anal? Are you concerned that she gave something to him that you are not permitted?

*Those are some of my concerns yes, since oral has been once a year on average during my marriage, and anal has been never. Anal would likely be a divorce forcing issue as it's sort of a second virginity. Another would be multiple orgasms.

I would not try to force her to do anything she does not want to do with me, nor use her confession as blackmail to get what I never got, I've always respected my Ws physical boundaries, *

I'm trying to understand your thought process, but struggling to get there.

Obviously, it was more than he touched my breasts- or she would have told that you already know everything. With that in mind, it is a very good bet that this was a full blown sexual affair especially with her emotions at the time as you have described.

Is there a child of sufficient age that you may not be the father of?

*Yes, but I suspect from looking at physical similarities that I am the father. It is something I thought of, but not DNA test as of yet.*

I would insist that she have no contact with the guy, outside of that I'm struggling to see what other options you have outside of IC, acceptance and being thankful for a happy marriage, or filing for D and moving on.

You did marry her and start a family with her knowing that she had a relationship with OM. Your wife's guilt and shame seem to be clear indicators that it was more than he touched my breasts. You can either accept that she had sex with this guy 20-years ago or you can't.

*Sorry if I mislead but the breast touching was before I was with her, and I never cared about that nor held it against her. 

She has never admitted to anything physical with OM and we know that that's not the case. 

Since we never know how we will respond to a confession until we hear it, I can speculate all I want, but in the end I might forgive more than I think myself capable of. *

I hope you find peace.

*Thank You
Tamat*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*ThePheonix;*

If you got any self confidence in your own love making skill you don't sit around wringing your hands worrying and playing your own version of porno mind movies about what she did with past boyfriends and if you "have all the information" which in reality hoping it wasn't better and more exciting with him. 
When you're married to a woman that been married before and had a few boyfriends before you, you don't uselessly dwell on such crap. 
Besides that, when you know after years of being married you still cause rhythmic muscle contractions in "that" area, feel her pulse rate and breathing increase, her skin flush and rosy and her unable to contain her moans, you don't have to worry about what the other guy(s) had.

*I'm fairly reconciled to the fact that affair sex is very intense sex, no condom, frequent, dirty, etc just think of the details...

*A woman has a man who meets her financial needs and is there for her when the affair dies as we know they almost always do. This is like the setup I had as a teenager, have fun on dates then go home.

*She gets the full attention of a guy who in her mind is perfect and with whom she has no bad memories or shares any responsibilities with.

*She gets a conversational partner who listens and agrees endlessly to her complaints about her partner.

*She gets to engage in an activity with the lure of being secret and forbidden

I'm sure if I had ever had an affair it would be equally good for me, but I can't imagine putting my W and family through anything like that.

Tamat*


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

TAMAT,

After reading many, many of your posts, it's clear that YOU are just trying to justify YOUR position. Rather than listening to others whose time and mental resources you have asked them to supply, you continue to justify WHY you should "speak" to the OM.

My advice:  don't ask for advice if you have no intention of actually TAKING it. Do whatever you want to recover this desperate situation. You're going to do whatever you want regarding "speaking" with the OM anyway.

Just my 2 cents...


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

ThePheonix;

Here's why he getting little sympathy. If he goes talk to the other man 20 years after the so-called affair that occurred before they married, his actions are going to look foolish, whether folks think he's got a "right" to confront the other boyfriend or not. There ain't no way around it.
Second, he went forward marrying her knowing full well she was seeing this other guy as well as him. She did not misrepresent her strong feelings for the other boyfriend and by his own admission, told him, "that she would never have feeling for me ever again". What would the woman have to do not to understate and lye about her relationship with this "OM", publish it in the newspaper? 
Based on Tamat's willingness and even eagerness to enter into the marriage while at the time being well informed that her other relationships was more than friends, the analysis that she somehow tricked and deceived him fall short as an issue of fact. What he should have done was tell her, "look babe, our time together was fun but I can see your interested in Joey so I'm bowing out. I hope you and him have a wonderful life together. Instead, he willfully said, "I do". (after maybe having months to plan the wedding, the honeymoon, a bachelor party and driving himself to the wedding. So yes, he can pin the tail on himself for the problem he's having; not on her of the other man.
On the matter of her perceived as excited to see him means little. If she's as socially skilled as Tamat has us believe, its probably her well-established way of dealing with social situations. Knowing women like I do, take my word for it that's a damn sight better than like a former student of mine who, when her husband was in the field, would flash beaver at me in class and be all over me like a cheap suit when needed help, but then shy, timid, and stand-offish, when he was around.

*I like your post, and agree with you except that my W lead me to believe that her affair, pre-marriage, with OM was not sexual which we all know is so very unlikely. Had I know W was sexual with OM I would not have married her. 

If I could go back in time I would not have been so stupid.

Tamat*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*staarz21,*

I guess I don't understand what the OP's goal is in talking to the OM. If he isn't happy with the way his life turned out, then he should get some counseling and figure out how to fix that. If he has to separate from his W to do that...okay. However, it's JUST as nasty to live a lie for 20 years...that's what the OP did. He lived a lie for 20 years. His W thought everything worked out - how wrong was she? She is on the verge of losing her marriage...even after she stayed faithful for 20 years. There is a time to deal with an affair...that is IMMEDIATELY. If you can't deal with it immediately...deal with it within the first year. I really don't understand waiting two decades.

*I accepted a bad marriage until I improved it in 2008, doing so make this issue stand out. My W was not entirely faithful btw, she continue to work with OM for about a year into our marriage, and wanted to divorce me at that time. I think it took her that long to accept that OM was not a possibility. 

My W also confessed to "something" with another man when I had gotten sick about 10 years ago. 

Tamat *


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

So TMAT....when are planning on speaking to him?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*intheory;*



Were you engaged - iow, was she wearing an engagement ring, or even a promise ring.

*No ring, but commited*

Had you _asked_ her to marry you - in a serious manner, not "what if-fing"

You say you had not broken up when she dated this guy; were you definitely committed? Did you *both* agree to being exclusive?

* Yes we were exclusive*

Were you in a relationship limbo, where you were drifting along with no real plans to get engaged or married? Iow, at that time she wasn't sure you ever wanted to get married?

* Yes, We were going to get married, I had just started a real job pursuant to that goal, hence the opening for OM to step in, I also worked at the same job with my W and OM*

I only bring this up as it might provide a clue as to where she was coming from. If you guys weren't seriously engaged; how can it be cheating?

I may be misunderstanding; but it's an important fact to establish.

If you're not married, not engaged; then you are dating. If there is no mutual commitment to being exclusive; then either party can date other people.

---------------
Just wanted to say again, please don't contact this man. And even the very idea of giving him money . . ? I don't know what to say, Tamat. What would you think if you heard of a friend or family member who was going to do that? I'm guessing you'd be shocked. "There's a sucker born every minute", don't be that person. Summon some personal dignity, and keep away from him. Keep in mind; his personal recollections and history are his own business, you have no right to them. And at the time, your wife was a single woman. In his eyes, he may have done nothing wrong.

*Having met OM he knows he did wrong and is concerned of the consequences. Possibly because he was still with my W when he started dating his current W and does not want me to drop a dime on him. 

Tamat *


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

*staarz*

You said he hasn't mentioned the affair to her in all these years because that's what HE said. I wonder if he mentioned the keylogger to her or the fact that he checks her phone hmm?

If he's mentioned those things, he's brought the affair up all these years. In addition to that, you said that she knew he had a problem with the affair after they married...how the hell would she know if he had a problem with it if he never talked about it? If he never brought it up? In order for people to understand each other - communication needs to take place. If he never talked about it like he says, she wouldn't even have a clue he was still so messed up about it. 

And NO. It's not normal to stew on an affair for 20 years. 3-5 years okay. If you're still p*ssed 10 years later....LEAVE.

*I agree with you that it is not normal or healthy to stew on an affair for 20 years, but it is common, perhaps the most common, way of dealing with affairs. The spouse who is devastated by the affair withdraws avoiding the pain of discussing it again which the betrayed spouse feels is a continuation of the affair, and it goes on for years and years. 

The betraying spouse will frequently feel guilt for years and years as well, mixed with feelings of loss and often a continuing addiction to the affair partner. For my W this ended, I think, about a year into our marriage when she wanted to divorce me, but then stayed.

In my case it is much more painful for my W to talk about it than it is for me and I get so little revelation for so much effort.

Tamat*


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Xenote,

I'll post about it after I go to see him.

Tamat


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Your wife confessed to something with another man while you were sick. The way you wrote this it leads me to believe there is another OM.?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Workingdad etal,

Sorry I was busy and it took awhile to draw out the timeline.

Dates are approximate but the sequence is correct.

*1 year ago *

I spoke with OM-1 at length, I did not not go into the affair as his children were there. He did however offer up unasked for explanations about why he was so helpful to my W when they worked together. My W knew I had spoken with OM-1 and said nothing when I got home the next day she said she loved me three times in a row to me, it's not uncommon for my W to tell me she loves me but never before like that. 

*1.5 years ago *

Was speaking with OM-2 in a store, he wanted to go out in the parking lot to see my W who was in the car and "kiss her", this episode was so odd I really don't know how to process it. I went with him to see what happened, my W refused.

*3 years ago *

W and I met OM-1 who did not see me, OM-1 cried out my W's name, then gave W a huge hug, OM-1 tried to recover when he saw me there. W admitted to nothing , but said barely audibly "it was before we were married" She also no longer owed up to many of the things she said before. In fact the only thing W owned up to was saying that "she would never have feelings for me again" and that was the next morning when she claimed to remember. W sat me down seriouly next to her on the couch to tell me about the revelation, but now the story was that it wasn't serious. 

*4 years ago* 

Mentioned something about what was in OM-1s bedroom when we were in a store related to OM-1 hobby. I'm sure if I asked today she would say she was never in OM-1's bedrom

*6.1 years ago*

W confessed about OM-2, it's unclear what her relationship with OM-2 was or if it was only as she claimed a momentary infatuation. 

*6 years ago *

Did some looking on the internet for help, improved my marriage, did a bunch of 180s, met her needs better, spent time with her etc. She says she became very happy with me then, she still says that.

*6 years ago *

My W was doing things for an 80 something year old man I put an end to that, this was a trigger to start improving my marriage. Didn't sleep for days at that time. This is OM-3 but not a very compelling OM, although my W did want to visit his deathbed asking my permission which I refused, without her protesting. 

*10 years ago *

I got sick and my W apparently fell for OM-2, my W didn't tell me about this until about 6 years ago when we improved our marriage but made a vague statement about she was attracted to him. Given my W's tendency to minimize who knows, I do know that sometime later OM-2 got divorced and I saw him out on the town quite a bit with women for lunch. My W was very hestitant to go to a yardsale at OM-2s ex wife.

*15 years ago *

We were out as a family and met OM-1 and his family, my W was so excited to see him. OM-1 was protective of his children and clearly did not want me to see them. 

*20 years ago *

my W wanted very strongly to divorce me, I think W did her calculations and understood that OM-1 had no chance of supporting her or even in the longer term treating her right. 

*21 years ago *

We get married, I was troubled by the lack of passion on the wedding night. I understand I should have gotten a full account before this happened.

*22 years ago* 

my W drops the "she will never feel anything for me again" and that she had "fallen in love". In reality I believe OM-1 had dumped my GF for the girl who is now OMW and is much younger than my W. My W is about 9 years older than OM-1.

*22.5 years ago, *

my GF started going to lunch with OM-1, talking about OM-1 Mom, myself and GF and OM went on a "date" to a restaurant, passionate kissing went extinct around this time. 

*23 years ago *

I left company X for a better paying job, with the intent of getting married, my GF was with OM-1 at the Company without me.

There were other males working at Company X as well. The owner of the company requested that I allow my GF to continue working there, I felt uneasy about but I gave my ok

*24 years ago* 

My GF started working with me and OM-1 at Company X.

*25 years ago *

Worked with OM-1 at Company X, my Girl Friend/now W was not working there at the time

Tamat


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Your wife has too many affairs outside your exclusive relationship and marriage. Time and time again, it seems that the men dumped her. You're plan B. She isn't truthful. As you observed, she minimizes these relationships so that it will seem trivial.

See a marriage counselor if you want to stay in this marriage. Personally, I wouldn't waste my time on a serial cheater. I deserve peace of mind in my life.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Roselyn said:


> Your wife has too many affairs outside your exclusive relationship and marriage.


Sort of sounds like when old TAMAT is not in full vigor, his wife develops "something" for other guys. I'd hate to see what happened if he were a military man and got deployed for a year.


Quote: 

_"I spoke with OM-1 at length, I did not not go into the affair as his children were there. He did however offer up unasked for explanations about why he was so helpful to my W when they worked together. My W knew I had spoken with OM-1 and said nothing when I got home the next day she said she loved me three times in a row to me, it's not uncommon for my W to tell me she loves me but never before like that.

1.5 years ago

Was speaking with OM-2 in a store, he wanted to go out in the parking lot to see my W who was in the car and "kiss her", this episode was so odd I really don't know how to process it. I went with him to see what happened, my W refused._"


See my man, this kind of thing happens when you try to cozy up and pal around with the OM to solicit information. Him wanting to go out a kiss your wife was to make you look like a weak fool. To me it appears he succeeded with that goal.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Roselyn said:


> Your wife has too many affairs outside your exclusive relationship and marriage. Time and time again, it seems that the men dumped her. You're plan B. She isn't truthful. As you observed, she minimizes these relationships so that it will seem trivial.
> 
> See a marriage counselor if you want to stay in this marriage. Personally, I wouldn't waste my time on a serial cheater. I deserve peace of mind in my life.



I'm all for terminating the marriage if infidelity is involved but this is a close second in my mind. Having it validated that you were Plan B and perhaps not really loved is almost as emasculating as infidelity and poor TAMAT appears to be dealing with both.

I might jettison this whole thing and start anew but that is only if I had enough ego left to feel I deserved something better in life than always being the bridesmaid.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> Workingdad etal,
> 
> Sorry I was busy and it took awhile to draw out the timeline.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Does your wife suffer from some issues that might impact her judgement?

Some of what you describe of her behaviour reminds me of my wife and several people on TAM/CWI who are on the ASD spectrum over toward the High Functioning end.

Because to be frank, there is something seriously not right about what your wife has done and how she reacts.

Damn! Just had a trigger. My wife cheated on me when I was ill.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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