# At a complete loss, long vent



## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

I just dont know what to do anymore. I am so sick and tired of the way things are but i cant fix it and he dont seem to care. my story is so complex that i am not sure if i can explain it all, but i will try.

We got married 7.5 years ago, after 18 months of dating. While we were dating, some issues came up but they were handled well. he worked with me and made changes, as i made changes for him. one thing that never came up was how screwed up his family is. everyone is either on drugs, or in jail and looking for a handout because they dont work and i dont tolerate that around my life or my kids life and it has caused problems with me and my husband. nothing that i didnt think we could handle. i only mention it because he comes from a very messed up childhood.

that being said, he has issues. he doesnt talk about what is bothering hiim, i have to guess. or he gets drunk so he can talk to me, which i hate on several different levels. and yes, he does have an acolhol problem. he avoids conflicts, he will just walk away when things get to heated. no matter what the situation is or who is upset. i come from a very loud and voicerous family, we all yell and love to argue. might not be the best form of communication but it works for us. we are also very stubborn when we think we are right. and we stand up for ourselves and our beliefs. david doesnt. but we were managing, and i know our marriage has lasted this long because of my efforts, he has not put forth any.

so last year it all came to a head, i mean we had our fights and major problems before but like i said i dealt one way or any other with them. i am a big believer on communication, i dont sit there and pout and mae my husband guess what is wrong, i flat out tell him. i tell him what is wrong, why i feel that way and what he can do to "fix" it. and then i get over it. i thought this was working but found out differently. so back to last year, we had a rocky start, his little sister lost her 3 babies, ages 2.5, 18 month, and 2 week old. cyfd took them, and we got them. we have 5 kids of our own, 3 are mine, 2 are ours, 21 years, 14 yrs, 11 yr, 6 yr and 2 yrs, all at home at the time. it was a challenge taking on 3 little ones, but it was the right thing to do. those poor babies cried every day all day long, on top of that cyfd were jerking us around and setting us to fail (which we eventually did) classes, telling me i cant put the kids in daycare, having to transport to visitations and classes and so forth. i actually loved having the kids here, even thou it was a lot of work. i was feeling likke it was all dumped on me, house cleaning, feeding, tending to the children, my eldest helped out quite a bit, but my husband not so much, well, in april, just when things were starting to look better, david goes out and gets drunk, and ends up getting his 2nd dwi. we hadnt gotten the foster care license yet, due to the state ****ing around so we lost the kids. the day he got his dwi, he told me to leave him, that i deserved better, i said no, we will get thru this. but after that day, he went downhill, started drinking more, and acting like an azz. one of the issues, is he drinks with a next door neighbor, who is a drug dealer. the kids know he is a drug dealer and they also know i feel like people like that are a waste of life and worthless, and we dont interact with them on any level. i have repeated asked david NOT to drink with the neighbor. i told him what kind of signal does it send to the kids when mommy says they are worthless, and daddy goes drink with the idiot? he still continued to go and drink there. coused come major fights about, but i guess he just didnt care. i guess i should also mention that around this time, i find out that he went out and got a 800 loan with the quick loan place here behind my back. we had a loan when we bought the kids 4 wheeler, but he went back and got another one and told them dont tell my wife, but since he wasnt making the payments, they contacted me. he also renewed it 3 different times. and when confronted he tells me he doesnt know where all that money went!!! he also was sappose to pay the water, and car insurance, which i found out after they turned off the water thathe wasnt doing those either. so after one night at the neighbors, he comes home drunk, kids are all asleep, and he wants to "talk". telling me come on tell me, i know you have something to say. i know you are mad. i told him, david i am not going to talk to you when you are drunk. he asked me why, and my reason was, it doesnt matter, we talk, i tell you things, things get said that shouldnt be sad, feelings are hurt, and the next you dont remember a f"n thinkg and i still feel hurt and angry, so i dont want to talk when you are drunk. 
this is the kicker and hit me like a ton of bricks, he tells me very hatefully and sacrastically, news flash, i dont remember a fu;n thing you tell me when i am drunk and i dont remember a f'n thing you say when i am sober. WOW. i look back over the past 6 years and yep, it all makes sense now. all this time, when i was telling him, and begging him, and threatening him, you need to do this and that, simple things like help me with the house, kids, take the kids to the park on your day off, ask me what i did today, tell me i look good when i dress up to go out, and so forth, and he never did. i would feel bad, i would wonder what is going on, i told him what to do, why doesnt he just do it, it would make me feel better and fix this, doesnt he love me, doesnt he care. 

well now i know he just doesnt remember. so since september, i havent talked to him anymore. i mean why bother, he wont remember and he never actually does anything to fix the arguement or the problem. my mom says i am over reacting but i honest just dont see why i should even bother anymore. the same things or issues we had when we got married are still there. i guess i should explain what those issues are, some was already mentioned. his drinking, i told him when we got married i was not going to live like that and put the kids and myself thou all that kaois, he agreed and actually didnt get wasted anymore. just last year was bad. he did slip ever now and then and we fought but last year it was intolerable. he doesnt make decisions, on anything. he leaves it up to me. which was fine in the beginning but i cant deal with everything anymore. bills, cleaning house and yard, feeding and tending the kids, disciple, fixing the house and yard, makking sure the vehicle are oiled and running correctly. i feel like his secretary, his laundress, his accountant, his daycare, his mechanic and his day care provider. dont get me wrong, when i tell hiim to do something or i am doing something myself, he helps. but it would be nice if he would just do something that needs to be done without me telling him. and sometimes he doesnt even do it when i tell hiim, i guess becuase he forgot. for instance, our plumbing went out, we fixed it immediately, and during the fixing we took out the toilent in our bathroom. which was for some stupid reason moved to the shower. so after it was fixed, a few days went by, and i said put the toilet back, he said okay and then did not do it for a full month!! he goes in the bathroom every morning and sees it in the shower, we can not use the shower becuase the toilet is in there. finally i blow up, fix the f'n toilet already, wtf! the thing is i could have done it myself, i know how, but give me a break!! with alot of yelling, he puts it in.l3 years ago, i took down all the storm windows to repaint, still havent finished, yes my fault, but in dec 07, one of the storm windows flew with the wind and hit the tree and broke. we didnt have time to move all windows, were going out of town, but i told him, oh crap, we need to move all 37 storm windows before they all get broken, i admited it was my fault and that it was stupid of me not to have put them in the garage first thing but now it needs to be tended to, he agreed, i braindumped it. last summer, i start working on the windows again, and damned if every single storm window is not broke!! i guess he forgot, so i yelled and my son moved to the garage, he acted like he didnt understand why i was upset. and the next day, just acts like nothing happened. i am still mad. last example, we were putting in the fence that my dad brought me in 07, it sat for a year, last year i said lets do it. i have never put up a fence like that but have put other types up so i have an idea. david doesnt know at all. so we go out measure, and start digging the hole for the railroad ties, it got dark. i mark where i wanted each hole, and told him they need to be 2ft deep. he says okay. 3 months later, still no holes!!! i finally dug myself and my son helped with the fence. if i was still working on it when david got home from work, he came and helped. but he never did it without me there or himself just seeing and knowing it needed to be done. i could go on but i guess you got the idea.

so we arent talking, and i am just doing everything myself. which works out great for him becuase i have came to the conclusion that he doesnt care about the same **** i do. he tells everyone he loves me but doesnt know what to do. WTF!! i already told him what to do. he must have forgotten. he whines that everytime he gets on the kids i interfer. which i admit to doing in the beginning of our marriage, but after he told me (yep when he was drunk) i quit doing that. so for the last 3 years i havent been interferring unless he is just way off base. he hasnt noticed apparently. he once told me that he felt like as soon as he comes home from work i jump on him with a list to do. i guess i was. i apologized and told him that it was just that things needed to get done and i cant physically do them myself so all day i am trying to do it or working on it so i cant wait for him to get home and help. but that i wouldnt do that anymore. so for the past 2 years, i dont. i will ask him, or tell hiim something needs to be done, not right now, but when you have time,or on your next day off. and low and behold, it never gets done. must have forgotten. if i tell him on his day off, hey do you think you might do whatever today, he gets upset. i guess. and if he does it, sometimes it is done half ass, which i cant stand. 

david does have some good points, he works religously. i never have to worry about having money, (we just dont have enough) he even cleans the house and does the dishes and laundry. he comes in very handy when i cant lift something or things like that. he has changed diapers and bath the kids. 

so here i am. i am actually against divorce. however i just dont know what to do. my kids treat him like daddy, he is the only daddy they know, and his boys need him too. i like the fact that the little ones are able to be like daddy daddy watch me, help me,hold me whatever. my now 15 year old has no respect for him at all. everytime my son started to have respect for him, david would do something to undermine him or the respect. i understand this but make the boy respect him still. i know when i am not home, it is not pretty. but at least when i am home, he does. i guess i also have lsot respect for david. i cant depend on him for a damn thing. and i am so completely unhappy. i am trying to hold on. for what i am not sure. for my 3 year old to get alittle bit older before i tear down his world, for david to pull his head out and do something to save our marriage, for something!!! we also have not had sex for 4 months, david doesnt make the first move. i have sent out signals, yes the one thing i am vague on. walked in front of him naked, last night i went to bed with just my underwear and accidently snuggled up to him. and not a damn thing. he would not even touch me, no arm around the waist or on my leg, he doesnt even look at me. talk about making me feel like crap. if i touch him in bed, he moves over. started putting on makeup, doing my hair and making it a point to get dressed in front of him, and he hasnt noticed. this morning was harsh!! i know i could just tell him, ask him or say hey lets have sex and he would. he is a little shy initiating it, he never was one to make the first move, occasionally has in the past, but more often then not it was me. so i am not completely surprised but i guess it would be nice if he gave a **** and wanted me and expressed it. its not like i havent told him in the past, but i guess he forgot.
any how, i guess deep down i know it is over. i dont think anyone can fix it, i just needed to vent.
thanks for listening.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain-

You're such a big hearted woman, that much is clear 

There is so much in your post, and I'm not able to tackle it all. I'm sure others will chime in, but it's the weekend, so it's always a bit slow on here. 

The only thing I'm going to talk about right now is my favourite subject: sex.



MrsVain said:


> i know i could just tell him, ask him or say hey lets have sex and he would. he is a little shy initiating it, he never was one to make the first move, occasionally has in the past, but more often then not it was me.


Your relationship is in tatters, and there is almost no communication left between you. If you could initiate sex, it might prove to be only communication channel still open. I realise that part of the reason you don't initiate is because you want the validation that comes with being desired. However, some men don't initiate because of fear of rejection, or because they were rejected in the past, and they just can't get over it. He may well be mentally bemoaning the fact that you don't have sex any more and, give that you usually initiate, he probably feels you don't want it if you're not initiating - especially as it must be obvious you're not happy with him at the moment.

The lack of sex is probable contributing to his seeking solace in the bottle. So you might be able to kill two birds with one stone. Of course you can save this relationship, it just needs a bit of skill - and right now it's got to come from you.



MrsVain said:


> i know our marriage has lasted this long because of my efforts, he has not put forth any.


I suspect he would disagree with you on this point. He probably feels like he is doing his best by working etc. He sounds like he is committed, but unsure how to make things better.

You could ask him point blank: "Do you think we could be having more fun together than we do?" See what he says. Wait for the right mood, don't do it as an accusation.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

Ahhh, thank you MarkTwain, after reading some other posts i was hoping to hear from you. And i find what you say interesting and constructive. thank you for your time.

Your input about our sex life makes a good point in that is a good reason he might not be acting or initiating sex with me, because he is scared or becuase he knows i am not happy with him. however, it doesnt explain why he doesnt even look at me. Or why he doesnt touch me. one of the ways i initiated it in the past was to get naked and snuggle up to him, so in a way i did initiate it last night. no response at all!!! and the one thing i am worried about, is if i say okay lets have sex, then he is going to think that we are okay, that we are "back to normal" and he is already not doing a damn thing to change it and will most definately not doing anything if i have sex with him and he thinks we are "ok". is there a way to say, hey i am horney as hell and want to have sex, but i still hate you and are unhappy with you? besides at this point, he needs to make me feel like he desires me, loves me and wants me. i am sick of doing it all myself. and sex is the easy part, right?

.


> "The lack of sex is probable contributing to his seeking solace in the bottle..


 Sorry but you are way off on this one, he actually hasnt had a drink since thanksgiving, when we both went out. he drinks when he is feeling overwhelmed, or he is stressed (like when the babies were here), he drinks socially too, however, he cant stop once he starts and ends up getting plastered and messing everything up. not really sure why he continued to drink after the dwi, except that he was feelling sorry for himself. last year is the most he drank in years. 

.


> "I suspect he would disagree with you on this point. He probably feels like he is doing his best by working etc..


 not sure what he thinks since he never says anything. however you unknowingly walked right into another issue we have. whenever i tell him this or that, i get the "well i work" thing. Sorry, not a good enough excuse for me. EVERYONE works. i work part time also, 8am-10pm fri and sat. in traditional marriages, it was the mans job to work. However, yes he works, but besides that, and the little things he doesnt do anything. and he knows it. but possible i need to ask him what he feels he does for the marriage. guarantee i will get the "well i work" thing. but i will push him past that. 



> " He sounds like he is committed, but unsure how to make things better.".


 Right on target there, however my complaint is that how can he be unsure when i have flat out TOLD him how to make things better? he hasnt left yet, so i guess he is committed but he hasnt done anything!!! and i am sick of having to tell him and then having him forget. most of the things i tell him should be automatic anyhow. things most people do to show their SO that they love them and are second nature to myself and most people. and believe me i have told him what exactly those things are. if you love someone and they ask you to clean out the catbox, even though you hate the cats and hate the catbox, but you know by doing so especially since she specifically asked you to do you will make her happy, you go ahead and do it. not david. if you love someone and you walk into a room with a group of people, you try to get to her as soon as possible and say hello, how are you, or i just made it here, or put your arm around her to show her you care, not david. if you love someone, and she is outside and it is freezing outside, and you go outside to tell her you are going to bed, you make sure you have your jacket on because it is freezing outside and you know your wife doesnt have a jacket and is not likely to stop what she is doing to get a jacket, you can bring her out a jacket to show her you are thinking of her. not david and so forth.

i hope i am not coming off badly, david went to work at 330 and i got up since i was so bothered and now 4 hours later i am tired as h*ll. i really do want to save this marriage, but i am so sick and tired of being sick and tired. i feel overwhelmed and have told him so. i cant do it all by myself and told him so. and i want him to do something anything so show that he gives a flying puck and have told him so. 4 months later after a big talk which i made the point of telling him he better remember everything i am telling to make this marriage work. not a single thing has been done or said. i guess that is where i give up, and at a loss.

thank you again for your response, it has given me some ideas.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> and the one thing i am worried about, is if i say okay lets have sex, then he is going to think that we are okay, that we are "back to normal" and he is already not doing a damn thing to change it and will most definately not doing anything if i have sex with him and he thinks we are "ok".


In your particular case, this might actually be what you need. You both need that feeling of being back to normal. If he felt that, you might be able to negotiate on the other things you want. At the moment he thinks your marriage is in crisis mode - and that just scares him because he has no clue what to do other than working. He is also depressed.



MrsVain said:


> is there a way to say, hey i am horney as hell and want to have sex, but i still hate you and are unhappy with you?


Not in your particular case, no. He is too sensitive. I remeber once I was in an escalating argument with my wife, and a voice in my head said, you can either argue or have sex tonight. So I chose to have sex. On another occasion, I chose the argument...



MrsVain said:


> besides at this point, he needs to make me feel like he desires me, loves me and wants me. i am sick of doing it all myself.


You are putting the cart before the horse - it's not going to happen this way round, sorry.



> and sex is the easy part, right?


Right... It's only your pride that's stopping you - for 4 months.




MrsVain said:


> ]i really do want to save this marriage, but i am so sick and tired of being sick and tired. i feel overwhelmed and have told him so.


You are so close...



MrsVain said:


> 4 months later after a big talk which i made the point of telling him he better remember everything i am telling to make this marriage work. not a single thing has been done or said.


You set him up to fail, you knew he would forget.

One of the problems is that you don't seem to understand him. If you did, you would know which buttons to press to get which results.

Again going back to the sex thing, he probably believes - rightly or wrongly - that you have been denying him sex. He sounds like the sort of guy who will eventually shut down and not want it at all. It's not your fault of course, it's just that your natures bounce of each other and due to misunderstandings on both sides, you have achieved to stalemate.



MrsVain said:


> ]he is already not doing a damn thing to change it and will most definately not doing anything if i have sex with him and he thinks we are "ok".


You see, you are not OK in one sense, but in another sense, you are perfect for each other.

He is behaving exactly as a David of his type should under these circumstances, and you are behaving exactly like a MrsVain would given a man like this.

You are wanting him to change his nature, which will not work. However, if you change the inputs, you will get a different response from him. That will work, and it will work overnight - once you know how to do it.

If you don't believe me, I will show you how it looks from the other way around. Imagine he was writing on this forum and asking advice, and I said: well, all you need to do is:



MrsVain said:


> i want him to do something anything so show that he gives a flying puck and have told him so.


and:



MrsVain said:


> he needs to make me feel like he desires me, loves me and wants me.


or:



MrsVain said:


> it would be nice if he gave a **** and wanted me and expressed it.


So if he put all this in motion, you'd react with same day service, wouldn't you?


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

Wow, so much and most of it so accurate. 



> Right... It's only your pride that's stopping you - for 4 months.


 Right Right, you are correct there. 



> Not in your particular case, no. He is too sensitive.


 Yep, more then likely correct there too. 



> he probably believes - rightly or wrongly - that you have been denying him sex. He sounds like the sort of guy who will eventually shut down and not want it at all.


 I so think we are there now. and you think that with me initiating sex we can get pass this point. probably but i dont think it will solve anything.



> So if he put all this in motion, you'd react with same day service, wouldn't you?


 yep, same day service with a f'kn smile even. i am so easy, if i am mad, grap me and kiss me and i melt and get over in a heartbeat. But you seem to be missing the fact that he knows this or should know this, since i have told him many many times over the last 8 years. With the fact that i am easy and have told him what to do, it makes me wonder why then hasnt he done it? and i do know that if i work it differently then he will respond different but that still puts it all on me. i am not asking him to change his nature, just grow a set and act like a man. stand up for his self and speak up. but then again, i guess that is against his nature. always the victim, and i cant stand that mentality. I never knew just how deep that ran in him, finally seeing it for what it was last year. same with the forgetting thing. i know i was stupid but until he said he never remembers anything i actually never thought that was the problem, that he just didnt remember. 8 years of communicating to find out it was all one sided. it wasnt communicate, it was me flapping my mouth and his not really listening. or whatever kind of mentality that would cause forgetfulness like that. As for me setting him up to fail, i did not do it purposefully. You see, if someone, especially my husband came up and told me, hey i am going to tell you something very important, and if you want this marriage to work you will remember everything i am saying. I would pay attention, if i knew there was no way i would remember all of that, then i would write it down while it was still fresh in my head. and if it was important to me then i would damn sure find a way NOT to forget. I did not set him up because honest thought he wanted to fix it and make it work. remember i only found out about the CRS syndrome in Sept the big talk was in Oct. i was thinking how i would react and what i would do and was surprise to find out that he doesnt think the same way it do. and that is yet another one of our issues, i go the extra mile, while he doesnt try, always has one excuse or another. i think how my actions are going to effect him (or whoever) and that goes into consideration before i even do anything. it is second nature to me, to put him and the kids first. for david it is the other way around, he puts himself first.

I have tried the if i treat him the way i want to be treated then he will get a clue on how to treat me, nothing happened, he just sucked all my good will and never recipicated. i tried the if i boost up his ego, then he will feel more secure in our relationship and might start being more active. again. nothing. yes, it made him feel big and better for a while, but after years of this treatment, he still doesnt recipicate and hasnt actively done a damn thing. it seems now he depends on me even more. i have tried telling him what i expected at the moment it happened so he will understand what i want and act accordingly the next time that situation happened. nope, he doesnt, and i can only guess the reason is he forgot. just in the last 3 months, i realize that he DOESNT think the way i do, he doesnt care about the things that i care about, he doesnt have the same family morals or even whats the word, when you want crap for your kids that you didnt have. he doesnt have the same ambitions as i do, he is perfectly fine, walking over the broken step into the broken door, and never improving either himself or his environment. 

you are absoluately correct in we are stalemated. but i cant figure out how to pass that. i can not lower myself to that way of thinking and apparently no matter HOW i go about it, i cant raise him out of it either. i have told him repeatedly (just not in the past 4 month) that he needs to step up, he needs to take some weight off my shoulders and it is his job to make me happy and i would repay him triple. he doesnt care apparently enough to try or make an effort, anything that is too hard, he will not do. he is like the rest of his family in that aspect, with his hand out, expecting everything just to be given, never worked for. 

yes, i could continue to do those things that i was doing and yes the marriage would work as long as i want it too. without him working to hard on his part to make it work. Last year, i was so overwhelmed, i begged him,yep actually begged him to do something. pay the bills, take care of the house, do some chores, something anything because i couldnt handle it myself. i cried and asked and pleaded. But months later, he hasnt done ANYThING. i think i had some kind of nervous breakdown, but i cant not do things, i cant let it go like he does because then it dont get done. and if i actually had a breakdown, i was too busy to notice. but i am tired of complaining about what david has done, or didnt do, acted or didnt act, said or didnt say. by dec, i was so sick of hearing myself i dont even talk about anymore. in fact at the beginning of dec, i shut down. just made it day by day, going thru the motions. put up the christmas light, decorations and tree for the kids because that is what i do every year, but i wasnt really there. it was so hard just getting up in the morning and get thru the day without breaking down in front of the children. i cant tell you the number of times, i cried in bed after everyone is asleep. his response to my tears. he just rolled over and pretended to be asleep, after all he had to work in the morning. i was like a walking zombie. numb to everything. and just starting to get past that myself, with no help on his part. i cant depend on him for anything, and i lost respect for him last year. 

i dont think i am asking too much of him, i dont think that what i have asked is too hard or out of character. it is the little things that you do for the one you love. it is the actions that make the person you are with feel better, it is what millions of married people do everyday. i honestly feel like i am done, maybe instead of actually trying to save my marriage, i am actually looking for someone to okay the thought of divorce. hell, i just dont know anymore. and i dont think just having sex is going to fix this.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> i can not lower myself to that way of thinking and apparently no matter HOW i go about it, i cant raise him out of it either.


What you are actually saying here is that you are better than him.

On a side note, I noticed that you had a big talk 4 months ago, and you haven't had sex for 4 months. I would guess that although you say you would have responded to his advances, I bet you were pretty frosty to him. Being a gentleman, he would not have dared to touch you.

After 4 months of no sex, he will be pretty wound up. I'm getting a lot of anger from you also, which is understandable. But until one of you is willing to understand the other, nothing will work.

You probably could bring about gentle changes in his nature, but you would have to meet him first on his level. That means tacking off your barbed wire blouse and saying sorry.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

Ouch!! 

i dont know if i would say i am frosty. but maybe that is how it looks to him. Yes, we didnt have sex a few weeks right before the big talk, and i really expect some kind of response from the big talk, which included sex talk, but after a month of nothing, i gave up. 

and yes, if meaning that i dont associate with drug dealers, and believe you have to work for a better life, and want more out of my life and for my kids, if thinking that it is not okay to ignore things and wait for someone to fix it for you, or to depend on a person to do everything for you, and wanting a nice house and taking pride in my kids and my home means i am better than him, then yes, i am better then him. 

so where do i go from here, do i try talking to him again. do i try telling him how i am hurting again and how his inactiveness in turn looks and feels like he doesnt care, again. even thou i feel like it is a waste of time, i am willing to try. but how to i start. what do i say. knowing he is only going to forget later. how do i get past that. how can i bring up that we ought to try a marriage counselor, although he has been in and out of counseling all his life, i have never been. i also know what is wrong with our marriage but he doesnt respond to my suggestions. how do i let him know that i am so completely unhappy and unless he does something our marriage is not going to work? (i honestly dont think he cares that i am unhappy or about my feelings) how do i tell him that i am considering divorce but only holding on hoping that he will pull his head out and put forth some effort. how do i explain that i cant depend on him and have lost respect for him.

i know something needs to be done, or said. i just feel like it has all been done or said before and he doesnt care. on the flip of that, how do i get him more involved with the family and financial decisions (he has already proven that he cant be relied on for either), how can i get him to show me more affection? (not just sexually), how can i get him to do more with me and the kids. how can i get him to express his emotions to me (he has always had a problem with that however i see him talking just fine with other people, he just doesnt talk to me) how can i make him feel less intimated by me so that he talks to me?

and he is not the only pretty wound up after 4 months.

than you for your information and advised. i am logging off for the day, but will check tomorrow


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain-

You can achieve many, perhaps all of these things. But you have to do things in the proper order.

First raise the mood. Sex will do that all on it's own, and the great thing is that if you don't use any words, you can't fall out.

After that, let's just assume his bad memory is true. What you have to do is make a list of the top 5 things you want him to change. Then pick the most important *one*. 

Just *one *thing to start with. When he is well on his way to mastering that, you can hit him with the next thing. Don't tell him you have a list - he will interpret that as "you are a nagger".

What would really speed up this process, is if you understood him better. For instance you say:



> i also know what is wrong with our marriage but he doesnt respond to my suggestions. how do i let him know that i am so completely unhappy and unless he does something our marriage is not going to work?


Are you saying you also know what is wrong with the marriage from his point of view?


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

i guess what you are saying that if i want my marriage to work i have to open the means of communication again. and the easiest way to do that is by having sex with him again. and i am actually thinking of the best way for me to get over my issues and see how i can do that. (the main one being is i feel like after all that has happened not only do i feel unwanted and unsexy but that he is unworthy of such a special act) But i am digging deep to get over that and possibly take that first step.

And to answer your question, yes, i do know what is wrong from his point of view. i can accurately know what he is thinking, and feeling and going to say if questioned. i know my husband very well, have taken the time to get to know him very well. i am sure there are some things he could say that would surprise me, but on average i know. and i dont like what i see. which brings us back full circle to the i dont know how to go from here. i have tried just about everything. the list, yes, done that. the one single thing first, yes, he didnt change. he never mastered it or even came close, he never even tried it in the first place. i understand his upbringing and how it affects him, in the beginning, before last year, i accepted alot of things about him that most people wouldnt have.

well okay, maybe i dont know everything. i have asked him what he wants from our marriage, no answer. i have asked him what he expects from a wife, no answer. from me, no answer. i have asked him what he feels, no answer. i have asked him why he does the things that i cannot absoluately tolerate, no answer. i have asked him what he wants for his children, his home, his job, his life, his future, no answer. i have asked what he thinks we should do, no answer. i have asked him what happened to that 800+ money he went behind my back and got, dont know. But i can read his mind mostly and accurate answer most of those questions. when other people have asked him, he has answered them the way i was thinking he would answer. 

after i got off line earlier, me and the kids did the things i have asked or told him needed to be done. we cleaned the house, then we took out all the old wall heaters (we got central heat/air) and disposed of them, when he came home i was in the process of cleaning the back yard. and he looked at what i did, said nothing and went in our room to watch tv (not the super bowl, he was watching cartoons) he did not even go outside to help me with the yard (which he used to at least do). when i came inside, he jumped up and started asking what we wanted for dinner, i said i dont care, i am taking a shower. took my shower, i knew he was watching tv again. as soon as the water turned off, he was out of the room again and asking the youngest what he wanted for dinner. i put a towel on, went to the kitchen, took out some chicken patties, put them in the oven and went back to get dress. he said nothing. he did make mashed potatoes, and we ate. i ate in my room watching the super bowl, he ate by himself at the table. very thoughtful about something. i didnt ask. i was thinking that possible he was feeling a little bit shameful for not doing the things i had asked him to do, (he was off for the past 2 days) after he was done, he came in the room and started rooting for the team i was going for. (he could care less about football so i am guessing that was for my benefit) then he started telling me about a new position at his work (briefly thought he was telling me since i am currently looking for a full time position now that the baby is 3) but no, it is a mechanic position, night shift, 1.00 raise and he wants to try for it. and hopefully he can get to days. well, mrsvain, what do you think, should i put in for it. (night shift used to be an issue with me because i didnt want him gone all night, and sleeping all day and ending up not spending any time with me or the kids, plus trying to keep a baby (and 4 others) quiet during the day so he can sleep to me was abusive.) i just said if that is what he wanted then whatever. he cant even make a decision without me. and that is what he was thinking so thoughtfully about. not a single word on the big gapping hole in 3 rooms, not about how it was going to be fixed, not about who helped me, not about how or why the backyard looked like a trash heap, and did i finish before it got dark (i didnt) not hey, i see you took out the wall heaters, but what else did you do today. just hey mrsvain, should i do this thing or not. make my decision for me. might possibly have thought that i cared the way i used to care about his spending time with family, but more just wanted an okay then anything else. last weekend, after i got off of work at 10, he asked me to pick him up from where he was working, (they were goofing off when i got there). i was driving the car, and didnt give it time to warm up. so the heater wasnt putting out hot air, and it has been in the teens here at night. so cold, we were shivering. he messes with the heater buttons, and says does it not work, i said yes after the car warms up, 15 minutes later, still cold, he said it shouldnt take that long to warm up, i need to check the termistate on this thing. i did not say a word, because i was thinking, yes you do, but you wont so why even say anything? 5 minutes before we get home,(30 min drive) he repeats himself. again i said nothing. 1 week later, still hasnt looked at the termistate. and i know he never will. 

it is those things that kill me. my mom said i was focusing on the bad things, i told her i am not focusing on anything right now, it is just that EVERY day, a bad thing hits me in the face. how can i not see it. how can it not bother me. i can tell you a new story tomorrow to verify if you want. and that is why having sex with him is so hard for me, and that is why our marriage is failing (one of many reasons) and that is why i am at a loss at what to do.

logging off, i have to get up at 630, take the kids to school, go to work till 2 (we are shorthanded) stop and get the sheetrock, and mud. and hopefully get the holes patched up since they are letting in so much cold air from the vents. do the dishes and start the laundry for the 4 kids at home, since i didnt get to it today.do dinner and homework and hopefully go to bed around midnight again.

no sex for me tonight


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

That last post was really sad.

My guess is that at some point you rail-roaded him into somthing he did not want, and maybe he muttered a word or two of protest under his breath, maybe he didn't.

You think you understand him perfectly, and yet you can't get the best out of him right now. If you really knew him, you could do it, in the way I explained before when using you as an example.

Him mentioning the job was a cue for you to say, no way, I don;t want to see even lees of you, but you missed it, because you are in the process of letting your marriage slip down the toilet. 

For very understandable reasons, you despise this man to the point of almost hating him. This is totally natural, but whereas animals can't overcome their own nature, as humans we can. Keep your eye on the prize. 

Do you know the story of how monkeys can be caught with coconut shells? How to catch a monkey the traditional SEA way Don't be the monkey. You have the power to let go, the monkey can't


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

hmm, right right. actually i do know what to do, when you put it that way. i know exactly that if i started talking with him, started having sex with him. showing interest in what he is doing or saying and smiling and being carefree then he will respond in some shape or form. 

yes, i am fully aware that i missed the cue. and so many things were going thru my head at the time, i wanted to yell, i wanted to say wtf, did you not notice what i did today, i wanted to say no way, you already know that i dont want you gone at night and sleeping alone and you coming in and missing out on doing things with the kids because you are sleeping. but then i realized, it doesnt really matter what i say, all he wants is the okay. and i could say all those things and we could fight about it but in the end, it still doesnt matter because what ever i tell him he doesnt do anything about and then forgets about it. so why bother?

i guess i am "in the process of letting my marriage slip down the toilet" because i am sick and tired of being the only one who actively does anything, not only for this marriage but for everything. He walks around with no responsiblity, no worries, no problems, carefree because he is secure in know i will handle it, i will do what needs to be done, i pay my bills on time, i make the calls to who needs to be called when needed, i get whatever fixed when broken, i tend to the children, discpline the children and teach the children, there is aways food and clean clothes and shampoo and tissue. all he does is go to work. We get into fights and he walks around with a poor me attitude for a week or so and then i usually get over it by then and he acts like nothing ever happened. like i didnt just tell him i am so frustrated and tired that i cry every night, that if he doesnt help me with the kids, the bill, the house, the vehicles, the whatever, i am going to crack. that i am so overwhelmed i about to have a nervous breakdown. And on top of walking around carefree, he goes out drinking, and talking with the piece of sh*t across the street, that i am trying to keep my kids from. He is not trying, he is not caring, he is not supportive, he is not appreciative, he is not dependable. he is not romantic, he is not loving. and i am sick of it.

i am actually fighting back tears as i am writing this. 

to me a marriage is not one single person shouldering all of the weight. To me, a real man does things for his wife and family, not because he has too but because he loves them and wants them to be happy. And takes pride in what he has as well as takes care of what he has. He knows there are just some things his wife cant do, but need to be done and he takes care of it. He worries about his wifes feelings, and cares enough to do things to help take the weight off her. he stands up for his family and beliefs and values (i actually dont think david has any), he cares enough about his children that he participates actively and frequently in their upbringing and disciple. he loves his wife so much that he will do anything to make her happy. And he TAKES care of HER. i cant depend on him for one single thing, how can i depend on him when i am old? if i even make it there, because i CAN NOT take care of 4 kids (the eldest moved out), the house, the yard, the bills, the vehicles (he doesnt even check the oil, i do), the cats, and the family. i have explained this to him so many times, in so many different ways, and have came to the conclusion that he doesnt care. If i have "railroaded" him into doing something he didnt want, it is only because he wasnt man enough to stand up for himself. everything i do is for my family, to better the family, to better my house and home. i cant think of anything i have done or could have "railroaded" him into that wasnt a benefit for him also. if anything gets to hard to do, he quits. if something has confict, he walks away. (he left me walking on thanksgiving when i got into an arguement with my cousin, when i finally made it home, only to find the front door locked, when i call the eldest to unlock it, he is sound asleep in bed) in his world it is all about david, his needs, his wants, his desires, and everyone and everything comes in after that. What he doesnt like or doesnt feel comfortable with he just leaves or ignores no matter if it is me, or the kids, or what have you. And yes, now that you mentioned it I do think i dispise him and i do think i hate him. i know his actions disgust me and i have lost all respect for him. I deserve better.

i guess one thing this site has helped is forcing me to actually figure out what my problem is. i know i said i wanted to save my marriage and i am against divorce. i know i have said i would do anything to fix it, but i guess what i should be saying how do i find a way to accept this, if there is a way to accept this, are my feelings validated and what if anything can i do to make HIM own up and face it. I am still very much against divorce and would hate to have to come to that point. But i honestly think that is where we are headed if he doesnt change because i am just sick and tired of it ALL being on me. And i honestly dont see him changing. All i ask for is just one little thing, one simple little thing, anything. in fact, i do believe that i could handle the majority of it, if only he was loving, and showed that he cared. loving, kind and considerate, right? or something like that anyhow. One thing is certain, i have given up. and with me giving up we are on a downward slope. 

thank you for your help, it has been appreciated. but i think i am done.


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## racemom (Jan 26, 2009)

First, I want to thank you for all of your advice and help with my problem. It's nice to have someone's advice when they're in the same boat. I'm soooo sorry you are giving up when your beliefs are so against divorce. Have you menioned divorce to him before? Just wondered if it would wake him up??? It sounds to me like you have busted your rear for him and got nothing out of it. Good Luck in your decision making. I think you really deserve the best!


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

No problem, i just hope my advice was helpful to you. Yes, i believe i have tried everything and i dont mind busting my azz if he would only recipicate every once in awhile, which he doesnt. if he did before, he definately dont in the past 2 years. what make me so mad and sad and hurt is that i dont think i am asking for an arm or a leg. i just want people do for each when they are in love. when you love someone, ______ fill in the blank. but not my husband. if i question or ask, he turns it around so that it is my fault or something. i am just so tired. 

marktwain, i mentioned that i could tell you something bad tonight and here it is. after i logged off, i went outside to finish raking and dumping the leaves. ( i never did get to the sheetrock) I was still doing that when he came home. I was in the back yard, but he went right thru the house, got the mail keys, went thru the back yard to get the mail and went back inside. i was talking with my neice (married to my nephew) and her grandma just died today (been sick with cancer for 4 years) and was making arrangements to watch her 2 boys 4 her while she goes to the memorial and burial out of town. my husband did take the kids on a bike ride sat, and stopped to get a tire fixed. he had called me on sat telling me he needed money and he bought a tire for one of the bikes. he did say he wanted it on monday. but i work in a call center and had someone one the phone so i told him i would talk to him later and of course when i got home he didnt say a word aobut it and i braindumped it. so he comes back outside today, and says did you pick up that rim, (i also should mention that i have a ranging migraine from lack of sleep, not enough to eat, and work to hard) so i said what rim, he says, i need money (42), i said oh right, im sorry i forgot, and i am in the middle of something right now, let me finish and then we will go. ( i guess i need to explain...during one of our fights last year, this one was about him pulling out 100 here and 100 there and not telling me and i was bouncing checks when i paid the bills, all i was asking for was him to please just let me know so i can act accordingly, i usually pay more if i can. old arguement and i was just trying to explain how it messed me up and of course he got mad and said fine then here is my debit card, and gave it to me, i have not since gave it back to him which is why he is asking me for money and i have to go plus he cant drive because of the dwi thing) anyhow, that apparently was not the answer he wanted so he just turned around and started to go inside. so i asked him as he walked away, r they going to pay you for waxing those floors (explaination again....last month, on sat, he worked a job waxing floor for doctors office, he was gone from 2pm untill 5 in the morning, WTF. i asked him and all i got was he was waxing floors all night and they had to do it at in the evenings when the offices were close, and so forth, i dont believe it, he went back 2 weeks ago and i picked him up at 10.) so without turning around and still walking to the door, he saids, they did. i said really how much, he says 175. i was like what! you worked 17+ hours and only got paid 175!?!?! finally he stopped and turned around and said something, mumbled some kind of crap about having or spending 175, they paid him 350, but he doesnt have it or something like that, it is all gone, he spent it or something, he was mumble and talking hatefully to me, so i calmly ask oh okay, on what? he says on nothing. i just look at him, he says on pizza (which we get at least twice a week and i know came out of checking) and movies and stuff like that. right whatever. he turnes inside and walks inside. that is it, no can i help you or just pitching in like he used to do. i am shocked (dont know why) and my niece is too (we used to not be like that) so i turn to her and say what do you think, she says, sounds like he is lieing to me, i say oh, that, sh*t i dont even care anymore, i am just so sick of it, she says, i cant believe he just went inside like that, i said i know, but i was talking about the arrangements we made. so the whole time i am outside cleaning up the yard, he never did come outside. f"k it. i am tired. when i am done picking up the trash, i go inside and lay on the bed, because my head is killing me. just relaxing not sleeping, and i hear him mumbling about can make that, takes too long for that (apparantly looking for something for dinner) my freezer is filled with quick dinner stuff, my pantry is filling too. he cant decide what to make, comes in there and says "what do i make for dinner, i cant make the chicken dumplings because they take 8-19 hours to cook) i bury my head in the pillow and start crying. in my head i am thinking OMG!! WTF!! Cant you even make one single decision on your own!! i get up, take polish sausgage out of freezer, throw it in micro, and walk back outside for a good cry (i refuse to cry in front of the children)... now later, he is not saying anything. he is getting ready for bed. i am putting the children to bed as soon as i am done with this.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

> hmm, right right. actually i do know what to do, when you put it that way. i know exactly that if i started talking with him, started having sex with him. showing interest in what he is doing or saying and smiling and being carefree then he will respond in some shape or form.


Your post simply describes a marriage that is on it's last legs. I made a suggestion on what you could do, but you can't swallow your pride. Among other things, he feels you have basically been dining him sex, and that is probably why he is spending money on escaping. Who knows what he's been buying.

If you just want to let it all slip further down the toilet, I can't help you. I'm not interested in managing chaos. I'm only interested in helping people achieve perfection.

People in your position always want perfection. They just can't get it through their heads that they have to start from where things are. If you're half way down the toilet, then that is where you are going to start from, not some silk-clad four poster bed with room service.

But if you want to wait until it's 3/4 down the pan, or 7/8... because when you finally get to being a signature away from signing the divorce papers, you might just decide to save it, and then it will either be beyond your ability, or it will be too late.

For instance, you have already push it so far, that he may not want sex with you even if you offer it.



> If i have "railroaded" him into doing something he didnt want, it is only because he wasnt man enough to stand up for himself. everything i do is for my family, to better the family, to better my house and home. i cant think of anything i have done or could have "railroaded" him into that wasnt a benefit for him also.


I believe there is something you did that broke him, I'm sure he would have mumbled something, but you just were not sensitive enough to hear it.

For instance, how did he feel about taking in his sisters babies? How did that go?

What also comes across is that you neither love him, like him or respect him. Yet another woman could get the best out of him, and your jaw would drop to the ground in astonishment.

As I said before, change the inputs, and you will get a different response.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

WOW! so i go from being a woman with a big heart to being the villian that railroads her husband and not being sensitive enough and accepts nothing but perfection--all within 13 posts. how nice. 

Although your posts has given me a new way of looking at my relationship, if you go back and reread the first sentence. i specifically said, i cant fix it and he wont change. I have given my all to him, all my love, all my joy, all my energy, and all my efforts were moot. he is like a sponge that never gives anything back. maybe a little if you squeeze really hard. You have done the same he has done, putting the blame and responsiblity on me. I guess I wasnt clear enough, about me trying EVERYTHING, but he doesnt respond and he doesnt think and he doesnt try to fix it. Our fights never get solved and we can never move past it. I make suggestions, i compromise, i choose to flat just ignore it but it is always in the background. meanwhile, he mopes around, feeling sorry for himself, like the kicked dog, and waits until i get over it. then he acts like nothing ever happened. I never said i was perfect, but he never brings up the things i do wrong. It is me that brings up the things i did wrong because i feel guilty about it. the time i came home at 3:00 in the morning. i was so apologetic, i felt bad because that is one of the things i have blown up about when he does it. i felt guilty. . his response, he wasnt mad, he was sleeping, wasnt even worried where i was, without a single care. and i still kissed his ass for a while to make up for it. no biggie, that is what people do to make it up. i dont have a problem sucking up when i have been wrong, and that has been plenty of times. However, he never does. he doesnt even apologize. and possible maybe he doesnt think he has done anything wrong. 

When does he become accountable for his actions, how much do i have to give before he has to give also? When does he have to take a stand and do something to make our marriage work. Sure, I could f*ck him and it would make him happy. We could start talking and i could show an interest in his life and actions. and yes, he would respond by talking to me more and even start kissing when he got home from work like he used to. And life would be "easy" for a while. Until the next big decision needs to be made, or the kids get out of hand, of the plumbing breaks, or the truck needs fixing. Or i ask him to do something big like cut the wood to get ready for winter. Then it goes right back to fighting, i ask him, he says yes, or agree, then procedes to do nothing. If i get mad about him not doing it, then he mopes. and still does nothing, not until i blew up and yell and scream does he actually do it and of course he is upset about it, about me yelling about being forced into doing it. (i guess that is where the railroading comes in, right) 

I mean how dare i expect him to fix the toilet, or change the oil, or pay the bill. or empty the ashes, or fix the window, or bring in the wood. I have never asked for perfection, i knew what and who he was before i married him. I didnt jump into this relationship, and i wasnt trying to "fix him". He was trying to rise above his circumstances. and i saw that. he was a hard worker and i saw that. he also was alot more loving and caring, i saw that too. All i wanted was to be loved back in return, for help in shouldering the responsiblites and duties of house and home. And a little bit of happiness. I return this 10 fold. it is not about starting thing where they are being half way in the toilet because i have been starting from the very beginning. it is him letting it get half way in the toilet by not recipicating and me fighting it ever step of the way. 

I finally got to the point where i have no more to give. I have nothing else to say to try to fix it. i feel like an empty shell, i cant think of any other way to make him stand up and take his place as husband and father. to take those responsiblities and duties. To be my partner, as well as my lover. To be supportive, loving, and caring...not only to me but the kids. but apparantly i am asking too much from him. And i used to accept that also, until last year. I cant do this by myself and he will not try. he also will not change, everyone changes year by year, we dont stay the same person, we grow, we love and we hurt, we live, and we learn. but not david. he works. 

i wasnt asking anyone to fix it, i was asking for support, fixing could only be done by david, and since he refuses then it cant be done. I honestly dont know anymore what i feel, love, like, hate, contempt, resent. Yes, i am proud, but i am also loving and careing and understanding. I am supportive and comprimising, I am usually very happy and satisified. i dont try to live beyond my means. and i seriously doubt another woman could get as much out of him as i have. because i seriously doubt any other woman would put up with as much as i did. I have many people, friends, family, coworkers telling me to give up, or how can i put up with that crap. he would be the first to tell you, (and has told others who report it to me) that without me he would probably be in jail, or drunk living in the same apartment, working the same dead end job.That he would never have what he has now. He was broke when i met him, I have given him the engouragment and support. I worked hard on boosting up his man ego so he can feel confident. I love him with all his faults and mistakes. I stand up for him and fight for him and put him first. All i ask for is the same thing in return.

And to answer your questions about the sisters kids, he did not want to do anything and would not have done anything. when he was told he just shrugged his shoulders and say well we tried to tell her. when asked well what are you going to do about, he said what can we do about it. it was me who said we will get the babies. it was me who contacted cyfd to see what we can do. he said we have our own problems with our own kids, and it will be so hard. i said it is the right thing to do. we are family. we cant let them go to strangers. when said like that and he agreed. and yes, he helped a little. but those babies cried 24/7 all day long, and his answer was to leave, excape, dump it on mrsvain, he would go outside and be in his garage. doing god knows what because i was too busy to go find out but i never saw anything productive come out of the garage, no car fixed, no tires fixed, no new bookshelf or anything. and no clean garage either.he cooked when i said please cook tonight, and i will finish the laundry. he did laundry when i said please rotate the laundry so i can cook. he did dishes when i said do the dishes and i will give the kids a bath. and yes, he did the midnight feeding when i was just too tired to get up again at 2:00am. but it was his fault we lost them too. his selfish actions that caused us to lose them. i had already went to where he was drinking, i kick myself in the ass every day for not saying leave the truck and get in with me, i warned him that the cops were out like crazy that night, i passed 6 going to the house he was at. but he said he wasnt that drunk and actually made it home fine.i wasnt even mad at him, i didnt yell or say anything, i just wanted to go to bed, and he takes off. instead of coming inside after unloading the bikes, he jumped back in the truck and went to alsups for a 6 pack of beer. and was driving around, and ended up getting pulled over 2 blocks from the house. i saw the whole thing because i was in the truck looking for him to tell him to go home. the cops said they stopped him because he was driving randomly, going down one street, turn right go down the other street and then going back. it looked suspious and after getting pulled over for not using a turn signal, the cop smelled alcohol and saw an open container. and david failed the dwi test. And i support all thou that. it was me who said we will get past this. after cyfd took the kids, i was crushed. i fought so hard to keep the kids with the family, the kids were just starting to get better and we were 2 weeks from getting our foster care license (if the dwi happened after we were licensed then we would have gotten a warning and a safety plan, but since we were technically still on a probation period, they yaked the kids out the next monday). I know he felt bad, I knew he hurt, and he spiraled downhill, drinking more, f*ckn up more, making bad decisions, we all were hurting after that for a while. but while me and the kids dealt with it and moved on, he remained the same. i tried to talk to him about it, i tried to find out what his feelings were, i tried to tell him my feelings. but got nothing and nowhere. and then all this other stuff came up and the light bulb went off in my head and i started thinking of our relationship and how messed up it is. and i tried to fix it but he doesnt try. i know he cares in his own messed up way but i just cant deal with it any longer. i want more. i want more out of him, i want more for my kids, i want more for our future. and if that makes me a bad person, then so be it.

i gave him 4 things to do in that big talk, explained each in detail and told him i expected immediate results, since he has been ****ing around all year long. 
1. quit drinking. if he feels like he needs a drink then drink at home and stay away from the drug dealer neighbor. i dont want to associate with people like that, i dont want my kids thinking that way of life is okay. 
2. he needs to do something to take some of this weight off my shoulders, things that need to be done around the house (broken window/door/wood for fire), yard and the vehicles are his responsiblities (when asked if he could check the oil, i get why, i am not driving it) so that i can do and focus on other things that need to be done. 
3. Be part of the family more, do things with the kids, be more loving and dont be afraid to show it. give the kids compliments, for gods sake just smile and laugh every once in awhile. get over feeling sorry for yourself and start giving back to the family.
4. Talk to me more. Tell me what is going on, what he is feeling, try to make me laugh, ask me what is wrong when he sees me sad, or mad. just give a damn about me. care about me and love me.

there were a few other but these are the most important to me.

4 months later, i have not seen not a single one thing he has tried or done. he has not tried, he moped for a while. and is quiet. Still goes to the neighbors to drink. I have not seen any progress. and i dont even know if he loves me. everyday, something happens that i cant avoid, and i cant ignore. like the posts i have done. And i cant handle it anymore. I cant live like this. Again, i want more. And i dont think i was asking for too much. I said my story was complex and yes, choatic.

i apologize to you if you thought otherwise and feel like you have wasted your time.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> WOW! so i go from being a woman with a big heart to being the villian that railroads her husband and not being sensitive enough and accepts nothing but perfection--all within 13 posts. how nice.


I am in no way putting you down, I am just telling you what might work. I understand your life is hell at the moment.




> Although your posts has given me a new way of looking at my relationship, if you go back and reread the first sentence. i specifically said, i cant fix it and he wont change.


I believe you can fix it, and he will change.



> You have done the same thing as other, putting the blame on me.


Not at all, I am simply putting the responsibility on you to start the ball rolling, as you are the one who turned up on the forum not him. It's clear that he won't start anything - but he might respond to the right medicine.



> I guess I wasnt clear enough, about me trying EVERYTHING.


OK, but on this forum, you may get fresh ideas, and you have not tried out my suggestions recently...

Look, you are right, I treated you as if you wanted to save things, and to be honest I would have done so even if you had said point blank at the beginning "don't try and help".

Just to conclude, I don't think you are totally to blame at all. At most 50/50 and probably a lot less 

But how about a challenge? Try out my ideas, and if they don't work after an honest attempt, then you can say you told me so.

​


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

I have tried them all before. i just want him to take the responsibility of the husband and father. And i guess i am very confused on what i want. one day i want it to work, another day i am okay with doing all the work to make it work, the next time i want him to do something to make it work, or show some kind of feeling that he gives a crap. still others days i completely give up and yet on other i think it over and it can not be saved. right now i have another mirage and feel like sh*t because of what he did yesterday, i dont care. 

i think i have some very valid points, and i still am wondering when does the man own up, stand up, and fight for what he wants, or basically fight for me? i think that is what the majority of what this post is all about. He NEEDS to fight for me, he NEEDS to do something to make this work, he NEEDS to give a sh*t, because i am all worn out. 

off to get the kids, & finally get the sheetrock


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> i think i have some very valid points


Yes you do.

Do you know Aesop's fable about the wind and the sun?


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

Kindness effects more than severity.

right and i have given it all, till there is no more to give, i can not make 2 fish feed the five thousand. At some point the stores have to be replinished. and my stores are empty. 

my problem is no matter what i do, kindness, support, caring, love, nurturing, what have you, he doesnt respond back. yes, he is happier and even more carefree. but that doesnt really help me, it doesnt solve MY problem. he doesnt try to return the happiness and the carefree towards me or the family. he just takes and takes and takes.........

And still the question begs, how much do i give, till he starts giving back? at what point does he step up and contribute to the marriage?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> And still the question begs, how much do i give, till he starts giving back? at what point does he step up and contribute to the marriage?


I am still willing to suggest a plan for you to gain his affection back, but unless you give the green light, my hand are tied.

My personal view about marriage that I have stated on many threads is that if someone is going to be married, they should aim for the absolute best they can, or get divorced. I would never settle for mediocrity.

I know hubby is *not* stepping up - he can't. But you can. One day I promise you he will feel remorse. He just is not mature enough yet. It would be nice if you were still together at that point because he would bend over backwards to make it up to you.

Of course, you and I both know that if you let him go he will probably end up back in the *gutter* for a spell, and possibly for ever. I guess you've got yourself a big kid. But somewhere inside there must be a *man* in there...


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## racemom (Jan 26, 2009)

[MrsVain;38345]Kindness effects more than severity.QUOTE=



my problem is no matter what i do, kindness, support, caring, love, nurturing, what have you, he doesnt respond back. yes, he is happier and even more carefree. but that doesnt really help me, it doesnt solve MY problem. 


Mrs. Vain-I know how frustrated you are. I believe that Dr. Phil says that "you" have to change what you don't like about other people. You cannot change other people, so "you" have to change yourself. Kinda frustrating, but makes sense. Hard to figure out what to do in these circumstances. Good Luck.


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## racemom (Jan 26, 2009)

Are you OK? Seems like you haven't been around here much today.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks, and yeah, i am okay, i just gave it a break for awhile to clear my head and to spend the day with my eldest daughter. i am usually home doing things so can get online off and on periodically during the day to check the responses. but yesterday, i didnt even turn the computer on. my eldest picked up and took the kids to school so i got to sleep in, and then we spent the day running around, having lunch. I am revamped if you will. i definately needed it. last night, my 12 year old got jumped by the bus stop so i spent the rest of the evening talking to the other 3 girls parents and getting that taken care of. (a bunch of she said this and that to the point where it excellated to a fight) i think i got that taken care of. i told each that it stops today and if this happens again, i will press charges. even thou david didnt stick around to support me or even back me up, luckally, the other parents were responsive and i think it has been handled. 

as far as my marriage goes, i am still at a loss. he is off today, and i am trying to work up the courgage or kumption to have a talk with him as he doesnt seem to be affected by all this with us. it is very hard for me to put down my pride, and try again. i feel like it has all been done and said before. i already have 5 babies, i dont want another one, i have told him before that i am not his flipping mom and i dont want to be. 

meanwhile, i am doing online banking and checking this post, he is walking around trying to avoid me. makes it that much harder to swallow my pride to go talk to him. i still have alot to do today also. off to buy the ductwork for the venting, and after those are put in i need to patch the holes where the wall heaters were. the sheet rock is now sitting in my living room, calling my name, lol. apparently david cant hear it. as much as it hurts me that he wont do it, or cant do it, or whatever, i better just do it myself so that it is done right. 

dr. phil makes sense, but then it is just like me accepting medicoristy.I guess that me living with getting the short of the stick, until he decides to be a man. not too sure how i feel about that. i need to put some serious thinking if that is what i can live with. 

right now, david is on the phone with some guy, talking so well, guess he is going to work on something.

wow! surprise, he asked me if i wanted to go to lunch with him!!!
well off i go i might not get back online till tomorrow.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

so lunch went well. then we did some errands. we went to pay his fine at magistrate, and i saw i flyer for parenting classes while he was getting his reciept. I told hey, this is what you need. maybe you should go. he took one look at it and started to walk away. i said maybe you should write it down. so he did, begrudgedly. these classes are ever tuesday 7-9. i made him write down the address and everything. this upset him, so when we got in the truck, we got into a small fight. i asked him, what are you mad now, he went off saying i think i am perfect, and that i did the parenting thing right while he was wrong. my response was i never said i was right and that i did it all correctly, i know i mess up parenting too, however, i am doing it all by myself and you need to pitch in. it didnt go so well, but at least there was communication. maybe a baby step in the right direction. i have been struggling with a way suggest that we go to marriage counselling. and havent found the right way to bring that up. 

i just read an article from another post. DivorceNet - The Walkaway Wife Syndrome
It describes my marriage to the "T". it just doesnt give a way to solve it. i am going to have david read it after i am done here. i hope it makes something snap in him also. it gave me a new persceptive of my marriage. 

maybe we can get thru this. baby steps...baby steps... but outlook has changed a bit.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain-

I'm still willing to chime in, but I stopped writing when you basically said you were done.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

Just an update, we did have sex. not great sex. or even good sex. i initated while i was still half asleep and never once opened my eyes. So i thought the talking would be better. Still waiting. Of course, in his defense (as much as i hate to admit) it was sex was done, and i hit the floor running, getting the kids up, and ready for school, and getting ready for work. came home at 10pm and he was asleep, or acting to be asleep, but i was tired to and after a few questions about my kids, i fell asleep.

i guess we will have to hide and watch now.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> Just an update, we did have sex. not great sex. or even good sex. i initated while i was still half asleep and never once opened my eyes. So i thought the talking would be better. Still waiting. Of course, in his defense (as much as i hate to admit) it was sex was done, and i hit the floor running, getting the kids up, and ready for school, and getting ready for work. came home at 10pm and he was asleep, or acting to be asleep, but i was tired to and after a few questions about my kids, i fell asleep.
> 
> i guess we will have to hide and watch now.


Cool 

I applaud you but...

You need to make up your mind if you are doing something or not. Doing it half asleep with your eyes closed is a start.

Do it again, and make it the best you know how. 
Look at it this way, you've swallowed your pride, you might as well make a meal of it! I know this is hard for you, but you're half way there, so don't sweat it


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

i really dont know what to think about this whole sex thing. i can say it is not going to happen again soon but due to our schedules. i will also say that i cant remember the date of my last period, and of course we didnt use a condom, so i am vaguely starting to freak out about getting pregnant. lol. i get pregnant very easily and i seriously dont want to have another baby with this man. of course 24 hours is too soon to know but i just wish i could remember when mine was due. i wont say a word to him, because he wouldnt have anything to say anyhow. lets just hope it is after sex jitters. lol. i hate having to freak out by myself!!! but i also know there is nothing to freak out about YET. 

holding my breathe!!


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> holding my breathe!!


has it created any closeness at all?


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

what? the constant worrying that i messed up and am knocked up? 

not really

holding my breathe? nope, just turning blue

the sex? again, not really

i just do what needs to be done, which is alot in our household. his inadaquentcies have not changed. sex will not fix that. yesterday, i had to clean the whole house in 3 hours for a birthday party. he knew about the party and even thou he worked, he gets home at 430pm, and he did not lift one finger. i worked until 10 pm. today i am trying to catch up on the laundry, because i am not joking every thing is dirty, more then 20 loads, i have already done 4. he did not do it on his day off. even after sex.

but hey, at least i am not "holding out on" or "denying" HIM anymore. Who cares if i have to still do everything around the house, in the yard, with the vehicles, fix the toilet because the 3 year old just clogged it, wash the clothes, make supper, and do all the bills. go to the store for groceries and necessaties. pick up the kids from school and keep them from killing each other, as well as try to raise them "right". get them to clean their rooms, do their homework, and start registering them for sports, so i can run them to games and practices. fix the windows, paint the house, still have to fix 2 of the holes in the walls from where i pulled out the wall furances, and work on dropping the vents off the ceilings thru the wall closer to the floor so the 3 year old will not get cold. figure out how i am going to get the sprinkler system put in and when. register the truck before i get stopped, oh crap got to pay the truck insurance. oh, right, he goes to work.......

same sh*t, different day, just that now he got laid. congratuf*ckinglations....... good on me. right. because i am not making his life unbearable, or miserable. and hey, at least one of us is happy and carefree. what the h*ll do i have to complain about. 

oh right, the same thing i have been complaining about from the very beginning. shame on me..................................


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> is there a way to say, hey i am horney as hell and want to have sex, but i still hate you and are unhappy with you?





MarkTwain said:


> Not in your particular case, no. He is too sensitive. I remeber once I was in an escalating argument with my wife, and a voice in my head said, you can either argue or have sex tonight. So I chose to have sex. On another occasion, I chose the argument...


MrsVain -
I feel that by doing it with your eyes closed half asleep once after four months, you were perhaps trying to achieve what you asked about in the above quote.

I know you are as frustrated as hell, but what you are doing can't work. You need to gain an understanding of him if you want to make your marriage work better. You are so full of anger, that you are even getting angry with me. What did I do wrong? I'm trying to help you


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

LOL, I am not angry at you, that is just how i talk. i admit to cussing a lot and can be very sarcastic at times. Yes, i am frustrated as hell, and yes doing it while i was half asleep and not completely waking up and opening my eyes, more then likely due to the fact that he wasnt the only one who was hurting after 4 months. And at least give me credit that i DIDNT say anything like above. And i get credit for DOING something about it even if it was in my sleep, because he damn sure wasnt going to grow balls and make the first move. 

JUST What AM I doing that cant work? I am stepping up and doing the things he is not doing. Not because i want to, Not because i think i am better then him, Not because i have some secret desire to make him feel inferior or insecure or want to get back at him or get even. I do it because if i dont it will not get done, and otherwise, everything i worked so hard for, my kids, my house, my trucks, will fall apart, get hurt or get repossessed. And Because HE HASNT stepped up and acted like a man. And somehow that is ALL MY fault that he is acting like a weasel. i mean god forbid he take any of this weight off of my shoulders, how dare i ask him to act like a man, and what the H*LL was i thinking when i wanted him to show that he cared, loved and wanted me and show alittle consideration and concern {especially when i am laying right next to him crying}. And why in the world would i want him to laugh and smile when he is with us.

I am pretty sure that he will not change, and i know i cant live like this forever. So I am also pretty sure our marriage is down the toilet drain by now. Now what am i going to do about it, I am not sure. I am living day by day, some days are worse then others, and some are actually good days. But the good days are few and far between, and one of these days i will eventually reach my limit. And that will be the end of that. Which is why i keep f*cking around on the fence, because i know once i actually make up my mind it is done. {i also KNOW he will not fight for me or chase after me, you are right in if i leave him he will crawl right into the gutter, with his sister and his mother and his cousin and whoever} In the meantime, if i dont end up with a nervous breakdown, or a heart attack from the stress, then what doesnt kill me only makes me stronger and hopefully the kids dont need too much therapy by the time this is all said and done.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm going to cut to the chase now MrsVain...

I know your title said this thread was a rant. But frankly that's almost all you are doing. *You need to be willing to make a quiet space within you for the truth to come in.*



MrsVain said:


> LOL, I am not angry at you, that is just how i talk. i admit to cussing a lot and can be very sarcastic at times.


If this thread is a taste of the mood you give out at home, I'm amazed you got hubby to perform at all. I would have found it hard if my wife was as angry as you, but then 4 months is a great motivator 

You need to draw a line and start again. If you want warmth externally, you have to first create it internally. 

You can do it, you're just being stubborn. If you had a genuine desire to understand your husband, you might be surprised to see that some of it (up to, but not exceeding 50%) is being created by you.

This would be good news, because you only have control over the stuff that you are doing.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

OMG!! And What stuff am i doing? Now his inadaquentcies are MY fault too?!?!?!

According to you i am doing everything wrong. but yet if i didnt do anything then nothing would be done. Now you are accusing me of whatever this thread strikes you as, i cant even imagine what you are thinking but apparently it is something bad, my mood as home.... no wondering he cant perform!!??!! WTF. 

This might surprise you but Women need more then sex!!! And if her husbands fails in every single department, and lets her down repeatedly and she has to "wear the pants" in the house because HE WONT, then it makes us sad, and unhappy and that in turn makes it all the harder for us to open our legs to your kind of men. 
You seem to think that just having sex is the cure all for all relationship problems. You seem to have conviently forgotton all the other stuff i was complaining or worried about. You also seem to think that just because i am not satisifying his sexually need that i dont know or understand my husband, when the truth of it is more like i FINALLY got to know AND understand who and what my husband really is. AND that up to 50% is created by ME!!! 

Give me a brake!! How so!! Because i want him to bring in wood when it is 12 degrees outside and we had no heating in the f*cking house!!! or was it because i got mad at him after telling himi 4 times to please bring in wood. Or maybe it was because I went on a rant and rage because still after getting mad he STILL didnt do it. And finally having done everything possible, and stressed out i Finally do it myself and bring the wood in myself, so that my babies are warm and will not get sick.
Ohhh, right...... but if i just would have had sex with him BEFORE asking him to bring in wood, then he would have been better receptive to what i was asking..... BULLS*IT

This is the scenerio in my house. Take it and change the words wood to fit any situation. change it the wood bill, or the word change the oil. or even read to the kids, or help me please, i am so flipping overwhelmed, i cry everynight and i just cant do it by myself!!!

You right i can be very stubborn and have alot of pride. But that is not a bad thing, you missed the part where i told you i also am very loving, and caring. You skim through my posts and take out the bad parts and find some fault in everything i have done. You single continuous answer for each of my problems is have sex, well you are denying him, he feels bad and unloved because you are holding out on him. because you used to initiate and now you are not he is confused on what to do or what i want, and poor him. And now you think i am an angry woman, who puts her husband down so often, it is wonder he can perform anything right. {i rant here on this forum so i wont rant at him} Even after i told you that i boost up his ego for many years mind you, just so he felt confident. Even after i said that i try to include him with our family outings so that he knew he was very much a part of this family, and my children dont call him step dad and i thought all my children to respect him. after YEARS of this, we get nothing back. And all you can say is well have sex with him, it will make him a happy, easy going, carefree guy and then you can get him to be more responsive. BECAuSe for the past 8 years, he hasnt gotten any from me.....And the kicker of all this is, and i have told him before, yes, i get mad but i am not the type to stay mad, in fact i could be yelling about something and if you grab me and hug me and kiss me to shut me up and tell me you love me, BOMB thats it, i get over it that quickly. We havent had sex for 4 months and you seem to think that is all due to me, well let me tell you, and i have also told him this, all he had to do was touch me in the right way and i melt. i am not frigid, i dont turn my back on him if he wants it, all he had to do was kiss me, and i would have gone willingly. THE TROUBLE is he doesnt do that, he doesnt actively take part in anything, it is never his fault, he sits there and acts like the kicked dog and feels sorry for himself BUT doesnt even TRY to do anything to make it better. Honestly, what man who loves him wife, doesnt even look at her when she is walking around completely naked. Because he is afraid that it MIGHT piss me off? whatever. What kind of man, doesnt touch his wife when she is in bed naked with him. Most men that i know would take that as an invitation and/or would love for their wives to do the things that i have done. How many times did your wife met you at the door wearing nothing but a tshirt and panties, that you just walk right past her? No matter how mad you were at her, or she at you, i bet that would get your attention and you would think HMMM, maybe and at least try to kiss her. 

Now, you say that i could change it because i have control over the stuff that i am doing. and my question is WTF am i doing that you think is wrong. Should i not pay the bills, hoping that he will do it. and so forth....


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> OMG!! And What stuff am i doing? Now his inadaquentcies are MY fault too?!?!?!
> 
> .
> .
> ...


You need to find an inner peace. He is passive, and your mood is angry. If you don't like things the way they are, you can change them starting with you.

The more you try and break through his armour, the more he will passively resist you.

We need to go deeper than this. All this talk of practical things (the household chores etc.) is just the surface manifestation of deeper issues. You will never see the real issues until you are ready to give up the fight.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

the real issues are that he doesnt actively participate in and with the family. He doesnt and cant make a single decision on his own. He has trouble expressing him self and doesnt show very much emotions. He doesnt have pride in his family and house and home. He could care less if something is broken. He doesnt appreciate what we do,say,act to him. And he doesnt reciprocate or put others before himself. And should i not be angry about this? I am very passionate, i give it my all and then some more no matter what it is that i am doing, i DONT strive for perfection but i dont ignore issues or situations either. i met life head on. And i need a partner who can support that as well as equal it. After years, 8 to be exact of giving, giving, giving, and also giving in to benefit the family and marriage to find out that after all those years, it has all been for nothing, because he hasnt improved one single ounce. he takes, takes, takes, and when you have nothing else to give he walks away. I happen to think i am worth fighting for. but it is too much effort for him. The household chores, etc, are all just symbolism of that, of his attitude, of his beliefs, or his way of life.



> The more you try and break through his armour, the more he will passively resist you.


 True, and if i dont try, then he dont do anything, he stays static. And if i give in then he just takes. so d*mned if you do and d*mned if you dont.

My apologies for going off, had a bad day yesterday. And i would rather go off here, then in real life. I am just so sick and tired of all of it. And i hate it when people think he has done nothing wrong. What little i am asking for is not that big or difficult for him, and still he refuses to even try. And i am so very tired of crying at night right next to him, and he cant even put a f*cking arm around me and ask me what is wrong. 

I am just so tired period.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> My apologies for going off, had a bad day yesterday. And i would rather go off here, then in real life.


No problem if it gets things of your chest 



MrsVain said:


> I am just so sick and tired of all of it. And i hate it when people think he has done nothing wrong.


The way he treats you is appalling, which is why I feel you need to find the fastest route to improve things.




MrsVain said:


> What little i am asking for is not that big or difficult for him, and still he refuses to even try. And i am so very tired of crying at night right next to him, and he cant even put a f*cking arm around me and ask me what is wrong.


There is a reason for this...


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

So, I just want to say thank you. 

I am still pretty much in the same spot as i was before, but i was able to get some things off my chest. 

I have decided just to stay at stalemate. I know he will not change. He will not give 100% to this marriage and family. I am focusing on living life the way i want to, to the fullest. He can tag along if he wants as long as he doesnt complain and harp on the kids and ruin it for everyone with his attitude. i blow off the little things and focus on one day at a time. 

I know this is not the answer, but it is working for now. Somedays i still hate him, and some nights i still cry. But since i know i am not going to distroy my childrens world anytime soon. i guess i will just live with it and try to move on. Some days are good, and the kids are happy. so until i actually decide i cant take it anymore and get rid of him, there is nothing else that can be done for now.

i will probably still come online every now and then to vent, b*tch, and complain. (maybe on one of the other forums) but i guess i have decided NOT to get a divorce any time soon, actually have a time frame of 4 years to start off with. i already put in 8 what is a few more for the sake of the little ones. Still thinking about marriage counselling but that is currently on hold. 

Thanks for listening


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> So, I just want to say thank you.
> .
> .
> Thanks for listening


Our pleasure, please come back soon. 

It is a shame that you did not seem to understand what I was saying to it's fullest depth:



MrsVain said:


> I have decided just to stay at stalemate. I know he will not change.


If only there was a way to get you to see that the above statement while *true*, is also a projection of yours onto him.

You feel stuck and unable to free-up the situation. You then project that feeling of stuckness onto him as if he were the sole cause. It's an unfortunate trick of the light. You are holding a dimly glowing lantern and all the shadows cast look like ghouls and monsters.

Turn up the light, and it would look different.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

I thought i was understanding you throughout the whole post, but i have to admit the last one has me scratching my head..... cant make heads or tails of it, but then again today i am not making heads or tails of anything, just trying to get thru the day.

are you saying that he will not change, because i project my doubts about him changing and that makes him not change?
i am stuck, and unable to free up the situation. he has his head so far up his azz i dont even know or care where he is at mentally, pyshically, emotionally anymore. i am tired of guessing, trying to make it work, or asking him flat out, and get nothing, like talking to a wall. What i am projecting back to him, is the same empty feelings he sends my way all the time. And again, i doubt he has even noticed. And he is the sole cause of my pain, sorrow, unhappiness, depression, frustration, and feeling of being overwhelmed. what i chose to do about it however, is in my hands, and i will protect me and mine. if he is outside the circle, it is due to his own actions and fault, i no longer care.

if i am holding the dimly glowing lantern, it is because he forgot to buy the fuel. if we are scared of the shadows, it is me everyone runs too for comfort because he has none.

And havent you heard!?!? Cockroaches scatter in the light. besides if it is too bright, i might see all the ugliness i have been zoning out in able to make it thru the day. It will not solve anything, just make the world uglier for me and force me to see what a sham my marriage really is, then i might do something on impulse like actually divorce him instead of waiting.......


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> are you saying that he will not change, because i project my doubts about him changing and that makes him not change?


No, that may be happening, but that is not "projection" as usually understood. Projection has nothing to do with influencing the other person. 

Projection is overlaying your own feelings onto the other person or situation so that you are actually perceiving more about yourself than the person or situation you are looking at.

You don't see your husband as he truly is because there is so much history. For instance, when you look at him with a snarl on your face and your lip curling up - that is the filter you are seeing him through. You just have so much history you can't actually see him a-fresh.

You need a radical radical shift of perception if you are to ever get anywhere but bedlam in this situation.



MrsVain said:


> he is the sole cause of my pain, sorrow, unhappiness, depression, frustration, and feeling of being overwhelmed.


This is a classic statement that shows projection. You just can't see that these feelings are within you, generated by you for you. *However, they are triggered by him, and most people would react the same way as you.*

You are in a tough situation, and only a quantum shift in perception is going to enable you to improve it. I really really feel for you, but there is just no point "soft soaping" you - you need the truth. Shoot me down if you want, but I only write what I see.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

again, i dont know what to say in response to your post. for one part, every persons sorrow, sadness, hatred and anger are the result of some form of projection or another. no one lives in a bubble (and even if they did then the bubble itself would be the object of projection.) Our lives revolve around the people around us, and everyone reacts to what is going on, who, and what, developes into attitudes, impressions and emotions. 

So what you say about it being a projection of mine on his and overlaying my feelings onto another person or situation is true. it is just the way it is with every red blooded person in the world. If the person you are married to does or doesnt do something that hurts your feelings, then your feelings are a projection of their action. they are to blame for your hurt, your pain and your sadness. so i guess i am still confused on what your point is on this one.

this situation i have been in has been ongoing and on a downward slope for the past 8.5 years. he wasnt this bad when we got married. he used to at least "act" like he gave a sh*t about my feelings or my wishes/desires/dreams. in the beginning, we had long talks about what we wanted for the future, for the children, for ourselves and our lives. we talked about how we thought we would obtain all this things (house, cars, etc) and what we would do to better our lives. and even though we did not argee on everything, we had the same dream and ideals (or so i thought). 

after we got married, i worked hard to achieve all those dreams/desires/wishes. i was on baby #4, finishing college, working part-time, had baby in Oct, graduated in Dec. 01. i was blessed to be able to quit my part time job and stay home with baby and kids for 2 years. but every day i still worked hard to have a happy house and home. made supper every night so it was ready when he got home from work, house was clean, children were clean, and keep everyone happy. And i loved every minute of it. And in his defense he was working hard to achieve them too. then i went back to work, we bought this house and i honestly believe that is when the "real" trouble started. while i believe that owning a house means keeping it up and running, working on improving the yard (this yard is 3 city lots whereas the old house had only a spacious back yard), and fixing up the house (it is an older house and just needs alot of TLC), and making it nice and try to keep it clean (it is sooo much bigger then our rent house of 3 br, 2small baths, and small rooms, this one is 5 big bedrooms, 3 full sized baths, huge kitchen, living and dining rooms.) and still raise healthy, happy and well developed children; i dont believe he feels or believes the same way. And while he is still working a job, he slowly or suddenly stopped doing all the other things needed to keep the dream alive. 

The main thing that has changed is that i still believe in the same things i did before we got married and put it into motion, whereas he is content with the way things are. he is perfectly happy to have the toliet in the shower, or not having a fence, or wood pile all over the yard, or the way the house is--ie: windows not painted and clauking falling off, trash in the yard, shrubs needing trimming, or dying. He also seems to be okay if the children get into trouble, talk hateful, fight and do poorly in school. It also doesnt bother him if the engine locks up because he didnt put oil in it and the truck sits in the yard and becomes a lawn ornament. This is a side i havent seen and was unprepared for because of all the things he said before and the way he acted before. Now i find out so many things that i cant tolerate about him; it doesnt bother him to walk over the trash that blows in the yard, or even broken glass (which is not only a eye sore but a danger to the children as we all run barefooted), if the sink drips or doesnt work, he is perfectly content to just go to another sink. he ignores the mold in the shower or the holes in the walls (i put up boards as a "temporary" fix where someone had taken out small wall electric heaters in the bathroom before we bought it, he would have just left the hole exposed) or the tiles falling off in the upstairs bathroom. Not only does he ignore them but he gets downright upset if i ask him to fix anything. Grant it, this is his first house too, but he doesnt care to care for it. 

seeing all this, and taking the weight and the responsiblity onto myself to get it done; on top of all the other responsiblities i do every day and the amount of work it takes just to keep the house semi sort of clean (the one thing he does get mad and verbalized about) plus having another baby making it 5 children to displine, teach, and love. I am overwhelmed. I cant do it by myself and when ever i ask him for help he either plain azz doesnt do it, complains about doing or just down right gets mad, angry or acts like an azz. _I also realized that it is not just the house, the yard, the vehicle he acts this way with, but with our relationship also_. 

Before i was happy doing things for him, i wanted to make him happy, i loved hearing him laugh. I wouldnt mind doing it because i wanted to do it for him. i didnt think of payback or rewards. i believe that you do little things just to make the other person feel loved, and cared for because you love them. i worked hard on making sure we communicated, did things together as a family and respected each other. when i saw he was insecure, i worked hard on building up his ego. when he told me something he wanted to do or try (like starting a house painting company) i supported him. i never bad mouthed, belittled or critized him. i understood it was hard for him to show his emotions (childhood issues and luggage), i tried showing him what it meant to be loved and cared for by showing him and treating him that way--ie i love to snuggle, i would rub his back, or hold his hand, or just go up and hug/kiss him. if i didnt agree with something--ie, the way he displined the children or the way he worked on something--i never said anything in front of the kids or while he was working, but would try hard to explain to him why i disagreed later and without making him think he did something wrong or was to blame. i am alway quick to admit i am not perfect, that my way isnt the only way and to compromise. (i used to beg him to tell me and not hold it inside so i can try to fix it)

However, in the last 4 years, he has given nothing back. he takes and takes and takes, and never returns the favor. he expects gratification and acknowledgement for every little thing he does (which i provided daily) but he nevers tells or shows us the same. my holy cow! even when i am crying, he cant even comfort me in some shape or form. i have stood by his side during his major f*ck up, 2 dwi's and 2 driving on revocations (each with a 7 day jail time), making ends met uncomplainly while he pays all those fines, i have tried to help his very disfunctional sisters, until it started affecting my own family negitively (my children come first and his sisters never learn and change)

last year, it came to a point. i was so overwhelmed, i just couldnt do it all and worse of all, it started affecting my children. i asked him, begged him, i cried, i pleaded for him to help me, for him to do something, anything to take just a little weight off me. i got nothing. he did nothing, and continued to make it harder on me by putting more weight on me. we fought, we talked, i gave him ultimations (2 actually last year) Still no change. it got to the point that i was just barely getting thru the days. in december, i was in a fog. i was just going thru the motions for the children. I dont even remember most days. all happiness and joy cessed to exist for me, i was like a walking zombie and i cried many many nights after the children were in bed. many things came out last year that had been simmering for a long time, other issues came out that i hadnt even been aware of.

A major one i still have major problems is all this time, all these years, i was working so hard to keep the communication (i am a strong believer of talking this out, getting it out in the open, facing it head on, and resolving it) so that our marriage would be stronger, telling him my sorrows, my fears, my desires/wants/dreams. explaining how he hurt me and what he could do so that he wouldnt hurt me again or to make up for it. explaining how to make our marriage work or better and stronger. All these years, i am talking, and last year he admitted that he never remembers a single thing i say. all the balls fell into place. it all made perfect sense after that. here i had been beating myself up, not understanding why things were happening and getting worse. i mean my god, i told him what i wanted in detailed steps. ie-just sometimes when you come home and the house is clean, can you just say hey you cleaned house, it looks nice. or sometimes it would be about working on the house, could you please fix the tiles in the shower upstairs, the kids really need to be able to use it, 7 people and 1 shower is a little hard, to this day that shower is still not usable. And i would think it was me. Maybe i was blowing it out of preportion (only to have friends, and family say they would be upset about the same thing) Maybe i didnt explain things well enough (i told him one day, i know i blow up easy but i get over it just as easy. especially if you just grap me and kiss me, i completely forget what i was mad about in the first place.....and yes, i really am that easy, he never does it, not one single time in 8.5 years) i would think maybe he doesnt care for me. maybe he doesnt love me. and i would talk (yes, talk not yell, cry or scream) to him again. I was so confused. And everything i thought was resolved, actually never really was, because he just forgot all that was said; which explains why he walks around like nothing happened.

i feel hurt, confused and even empty now. i guess i do think how would i react if he asked or told me. If someone told me, hey i really dont like it when you do this, but if you just do that, i could live with it. then i try extra hard to do that thing and not do the this thing. So i am thinking, if he really loved me, wouldnt he listen and make an valid effort to remember what i am telling him. i am not asking for all of it, because i can go on and on (until someone tells me to shut up which he never does either) but just one simple thing. which i told him that too (said hey i know i just gave you like 10 things or examples, but if you just did ONE of them, i could deal with all the others) But my husband doesnt even bother to TRY to remember, or bother to Try to put anything in action. Or make any effort on his own to make things better. (which is the other thing that really bothers me) 

SO WHAT AM I TO DO? i cant just ignore everything the way he does. i cant just not pay the bills, or worry about the kids, or leave the house unfixed, or not tend to the vehicles. those are the kind of things that i cant tolerate. i am not built that way; besides the fact that if left ignored they only get worse. i cant just go on acting like everything is fine and dandy, when they are not. I cant just go on trying and giving, and giving in or giving up when i am to only one actually doing. On top of that, i still want to better myself, my kids and my lives. there are a lot of things i want to do, i dream of doing, and work hard to achieve those things. 

i believe that david and i are no longer on the same page. and while i would be willing to work to fix that, he does not. _(proven by his own actions and the things he has said and done in the past 3 years or so)._ I dont think we want the same thing out of life and for our children. i continue to try, learn, change and adapt, while he does not. And even if i could deal with that, i would still want to take care of what we do have, while he will not. _(again proven in the last 3 years or so)_. lLife is too short to be angry, and unhappy. before i know it, my kids will be all grown and gone and possibly angry and unhappy also. Just for that reason alone, i will not tolerate it. it is not acceptable for me to live that way, and i dont think he will do anything to change it. (proven again)

AND THAT IS WHY I AM AT SUCH A LOSS AT WHAT TO DO.

LOL, sorry this is so long, i guess i found plenty to say in response to your post. I hope this explains why i have those feeling. yes, i regonized they are generated by me. there are my hopes, and my dreams, my values, and morals, my beliefs and expectations that are not being met or supported by my husband. A marriage is a job being worked on constatantly and daily by both people. Each depending on the other to fulfill some basic need, and returning it whole heartedly and gladly. Each working on keeping the other happy and having the respect towards one another. and when it comes down to it, just caring and giving a sh*t about the other person. If given to me, i return it 10 fold. i dont think it is too much to ask to have my husband support and care and love and honor and all that...not when i give back more then i recieve happy and with a smile on my face.

*ps--*i hope you do not feel like i have shot you down before. i am glad for truth, honesty and that you write how you see it. it is hard to tell it all here. there are bits and pieces that just cant be explained or that dont come across correctly when written. emotions and expressions cant be typed. yes, some of what you said has made me mad but a lot of what you say makes sense, and even tried before (more then once also). 

AND being that you are the only person to actually respond, good or bad, and seems to care enough to give advice, i have no desire to shut you up. lol.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

i decided to start a new post with this last response


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain-

I'm going to stick to this thread for now...

I realise your situation is very very hard. I could not face it. Men seem to hit the bottle when things get this bad, whereas women like you just seem to soldier on - I'm impressed.

But despite all the useful information you have provided in this last response, I feel that you and I are not actually communicating yet in the most optimum way. So I'm only going to focus on two things, and I would really like to get somewhere, so that I know that we have both understood each other. 

*1)* We are not quite on the same page in regard to "projection". If you can master this concept it will set you free - truly.



MrsVain said:


> if the person you are married to does or doesnt do something that hurts your feelings, then your feelings are a projection of their action. *they are to blame for your hurt, your pain and your sadness.*


This does not describe projection from my point of view. What it describes is what happens when someone projects and does not realise it.

Look at the sentence in bold. This is how it seems to you, but this is not reality. The theory of projection is an attempt to describe what is really going on.

"Projection" is saying that you are the director of a movie, and that you are projecting it and it's meaning on to the canvas of life.



MrsVain said:


> *they are to blame for your hurt, your pain and your sadness.*


The trigger comes from him, but the feelings come from within you. You are the cause of your own pain.

If you just meditate on this concept, the penny will drop, and you will be at the beginning of something new. By blaming David for all your pain, you are giving all your power away.

*2)* My other point is to say that you were onto something when you told him to pick just one thing to work on. But I think it would be better if *you* picked one thing for him to work on.

I am totally on your side that he is being unreasonable. The fastest way to get movement on this is to focus on just one improvement he could make for you. Do not deviate. Don't pick the hardest one for him, or you will set him up to fail. Perhaps pick one thing that he used to do right in the past.

What about getting him to hug you when you cry? But I guess you would rather have something practical. The thing is, once you get him to master one thing, you can move on to the next item...

Please try to respond to what I have written, we need to focus.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

okay, i will try...

1). i do understand what you are saying about projection. i know it is MY feelings and only because of some ideal or value that i feel is not being met in my own head or self that i am getting hurt. I dont like the scientific reasoning on why people feel hurt or anger, because in the "real" world, we react to people around us. that is just the truth of it. yes, we can control our reactions to what other people do & their behavior towards us, but we have been "programmed" to act and react on that also. i understand they are my feelings. but i dont believe in the "you are the cause of my own pain" thing. it is far beyond my ideas of what the perfect husband came provide or what i wish for. i have realized that my happiness comes from within. and also realize that he doesnt possess everything i dream of. and have adjusted to that. however, i am only human. and i have the basic needs that every other person has which i feel he is not connecting with or fulfilling. And that hurts, period. i dont believe it is wrong to want the person you married to do things to make you happy and when they chose not to, then yes they are causing you pain. he has to take responsiblity that his action hurt other people just as i have. just because he is not picking up a stick and hitting me, doesnt excuse him from being the cause of my sorrow and pain. so lets just agree to disagree on this one, i can no more stop myself from feeling hurt from what he does or doesnt do then i can figure out why and how projection actual matters. blaming david is not giving away my power because it is still my decision to stay with him or leave him. or to put up with it (as i have in the past) or be angry about it. but i have far past my breaking point. and i feel he needs to own up. 

2) yes, i have done that. One thing, one simple little thing. And he doesnt do it. never masters it, and apparently doesnt remember it. so i remind him, and still not that much of a change. he just doesnt try. i know he can do it, i have seen him do it with either other people or he did it in the past. it is his choose not to do if when i ask or he doesnt remember it the next day. i have no idea why this is, but as you have mentioned before, (i think) i can not make him do anything he really doesnt want to. i dont railroad him or manipulate him into to comforming to my wishes. i guess i could but that wouldnt solve what is the real issue. is it too much to ask that he just do it because he loves me? so the thing is he nevers masters the one thing and we never do move on to the next...

and before i dealt with it but i just cant ignore it any longer.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> okay, i will try...
> 
> 1). i do understand what you are saying about projection. i know it is MY feelings and only because of some ideal or value that i feel is not being met in my own head or self that i am getting hurt. I dont like the scientific reasoning on why people feel hurt or anger, because in the "real" world, we react to people around us. that is just the truth of it. yes, we can control our reactions to what other people do & their behavior towards us, but we have been "programmed" to act and react on that also. i understand they are my feelings. but i dont believe in the "you are the cause of my own pain" thing. it is far beyond my ideas of what the perfect husband came provide or what i wish for. i have realized that my happiness comes from within. and also realize that he doesnt possess everything i dream of. and have adjusted to that. however, i am only human. and i have the basic needs that every other person has which i feel he is not connecting with or fulfilling. And that hurts, period. i dont believe it is wrong to want the person you married to do things to make you happy and when they chose not to, then yes they are causing you pain. he has to take responsiblity that his action hurt other people just as i have. just because he is not picking up a stick and hitting me, doesnt excuse him from being the cause of my sorrow and pain.


You are correct in all that you say. But you are almost on the verge of understanding me, so I will persist a little longer. What I am hinting at is that it is your perception that causes you to feel what you feel. And if you can elevate your perception a little, you will see new interpretations of your situation - interpretations that could allow you to see how to shift the situation effortlessly.

All you lack is the knowledge. you could utter 3 sentences to him and his heart would start to melt and be filled with remorse and the desire to want to make it up to you. But what are those 3 sentences?

If you expand your awareness enough those words could come into your brain and out of your mouth.

I promise you that as far as I know this is the truth.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

maybe so but this has been going on for 8 years. i have no idea how to elevate my perception even a little. 

it would be nice to find the thing that would make his heart melt and him be filled with romorse and the desire to want to make it up to me, but i dont think it will happen for my husband. i know he has felt remorse, but doesnt act on it. his idea of making it up to me, is to nope around and not talk to me for a while until i get over it. 

my husband always take the easy road. if it gets to hard, he just wipes the board clean, lets the chips fall where they will and move on. i honest dont think he has ever stood up for anything in his life. i dont think anything means more to him then his own self. i guess he is just like the sisters only it is me that is providing him the means to rise above that. if i let go, he will be just like them. and i cant get through to him. its like nothing has value or means the world to him. just himself.

forgive me tonight, i feel out of it and getting to the point where i just dont care.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> it would be nice to find the thing that would make his heart melt and him be filled with romorse and the desire to want to make it up to me, but i dont think it will happen for my husband. i know he has felt remorse, but doesnt act on it. his idea of making it up to me, is to nope around and not talk to me for a while until i get over it.


If you had a keen desire to expand your awareness, the answers would come. I know your life is hard, but your constant thoughts are a prison.

You slipped up here:



MrsVain said:


> AND HE IS WANTING TO TALK, which is completely out of character. usually when he is sitting in front of the tv, he doesnt talk to anyone. especially me. (we are still not well from all the sh*t last year, see other posts) So he is asking me stupid questions too, like did you stop to see the bike? no david, did you? he says something about going to town and country, even though i didnt ask. and i am getting the feeling that he is trying to cover up something. because he doesnt voleenteer information like that. Usually it is like pulling teeth to get him to say anything. so i mumble again, whatever, and he yells (another out of character) What! What did you say! and i just start talking to the 12 year old who is on the other computer. and i start typing this....


You always say you want him to open up. When he did, you shut him down. Even if he was talking out of guilt, had you been smart you could have gradually turned the conversation round to achieve your purpose.

The unconscious strategy you are running serves to mentain the status quo. Is that what you want?

What would you need is the power to get into his mind and understand him. To do that you have to develop sensitivity. You've told me before that you understand him perfectly. You don't. You don't have the empathy to get into his head.

Because of all the sacrifices you make, you feel you are a good person and don't deserve this. These thoughts are blinding you to what is right in front of your nose.


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

but yes, at one time i had the empathy to get into his head, i was there for 8 years, he never bothered to understand me. 

i AM a good person, and I DO deserve better, 

f*ck, i give up


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Alright-

Look at it this way. Imagine he was desperately typing his heart out on another forum like this. How would his thread read? What would his complaints be?


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

good question. maybe i should have him do it. the only time i hear what i really bothering him, (no matter how much i beg, talk or plead) is when he is drunk. and he hasnt done that since thanksgiving, which is a good thing. but kind of a double edged sword because now i have no idea since he dont like conflicts or talking about his emotions.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MrsVain said:


> good question. maybe i should have him do it. the only time i hear what i really bothering him, (no matter how much i beg, talk or plead) is when he is drunk. and he hasnt done that since thanksgiving, which is a good thing. but kind of a double edged sword because now i have no idea since he dont like conflicts or talking about his emotions.


I have done a lot of work trying to get men to find out what they are doing to piss off their wives by looking within, see: Sexless Marraige?

By the same token, I would be surprised if you don't know what his biggest complaints and resentments are.


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