# Marrying for money



## Anubis

My fiance just sent this link to me:

Money Mic: Why I Want to Marry Rich

tl:dr = "I'm 23, Female and I want to marry a guy who makes 300K /yr and has $1Million in assets"

I'm just curious what the guys here think about her and her plans. (holding my own tongue for now)


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## FirstYearDown

I believe that the vast majority of women, hope to marry men who are financially stable. There is nothing wrong with this.

Rich men tend to be horrible people, in my experience. They think that their money gives them licence to treat others like garbage and they also try to buy women, which is was a turn off for me.

This woman is shallow and materialistic. She will meet a man that will use her and toss her aside.


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## EleGirl

I don't think that the woman is saying that she is marrying for money.

Marrying for money means that money is the only or main criteria used to select a spouse.

She said " For me, a college-educated, generally rational woman, marrying for money isn’t at the expense of all else—it’s just a priority. "

We all make choices on who we would marry. I would never have chosen an uneducated man who does not have a good solid income for marriage. I know a lot of men who would not choose an uneducted women with out a solid income either.

There is not just one person in the world for all of us to love. We each decide which demographic we want to find a spouse in ... and then we find that person. 

She makes sense to me.


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## RandomDude

I admire her honesty :rofl:
Women are naturally attracted to the rich, just how it is. Same reason why in the past if I wanted an easy lay I just had to change the notes on my wallet to greens and dress well.

There's materialism and then there's financial stability. Being selective when it comes to financial stability is important because you have to protect yourself from leeches and deadbeats. I will encourage my daughter to be selective as well in the future, and I will be one hell of a father-in-law. I won't judge him based on how much money he can make, but I will judge him on his ability to provide the stability for my daughter.

Unlike my mother-in-law, who insisted that I'm blah blah blah just because I don't have a degree, yet I've NEVER been out of work and always lived independently when it comes to finances and zero debts.

From my experiences however, most women where I live are gold diggers, except those like my wife it seems, but then again, she's from a rich family herself so it's rather ironic. I reject any help from her family however, hell even refusing to pay the check after inviting them out for dinner gives them ammunition to spit on me

Meh, I hate her family really, cold hate, and I hate rich people, even if I am one now myself owning my own successful and established business... ironically it was my hate that inspired me to be financially successful so that I could spit on them back. Revenge was so satisfying.

Anyways... sorry, got a little sidetracked, so this lady wants to marry a millionaire? Well she had better have a lot to offer if she raised her bar that high.


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## DTO

FirstYearDown said:


> This woman is shallow and materialistic. She will meet a man that will use her and toss her aside.



Agree.

Financial stability is industriousness is one thing. This woman wants a "1%er", which is far more than what is needed to be financially secure.

Second thought: she most likely knows that a guy like this is going to be working long hours and perhaps travelling too. Maybe she wants someone who will provide and stay out of the way?

Third thought: guys meeting that income / asset requirement are probably far less than 1% of the population. This woman better bring something to the table if she hopes to compete.


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## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> There's materialism and then there's financial stability. Being selective when it comes to financial stability is important because you have to protect yourself from leeches and deadbeats. I will encourage my daughter to be selective as well in the future, and I will be one hell of a father-in-law. I won't judge him based on how much money he can make, but I will judge him on his ability to provide the stability for my daughter.


Love this Random Dude, this is how I look at PEOPLE also. And would want the same for my daughter as well.... those were MY criteria in a man (the ability to provide & a responsibilty with the $$ he earns = stability).

I was never temped by how much a man made, his bank account or how new his hotrod was .....I always felt "the rich" would likely be too busy with their big careers & toys and not have enough time to devote to "US" so there was little allure for me. I cared about the simplier things in life.... the romantic...the togetherness. 

I was perfectly content hooking up with the little guy who had awesome integrity, the type that never misses a day of work, like years at a time, who is faithful to always show on time, does a job his bosses are proud of, is helpful to his co-workers , is well respected and devotes himself to family. 

This type of man is a treasure and he IS capable of going places, he has built a name for himself among other people - and when 2 work together at that -with the same dreams, and ideals... us little people can make our dreams come true. 

Story of our little life anyway. .... One thing I am very proud of in my marraige. 

My husband can always boast I never married him for his money!


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## heartsbeating

Well, there's a difference between being rich and being wealthy. I have met wealthy men who have been extremely down to earth and displayed grace - just as I have met men without much money to their name who have also had these qualities too. Unless you knew their story, you wouldn't be able to tell who was who. 

Someone that is wealthy, doesn't have the need to make their financial status known to others. They likely have nothing to 'prove' in that sense.

Often there's a sacrifice between earning potential and life balance. Whether it be following your dream/heart and (often) sacrificing materialistic wealth to do so, OR earning larger sums of money and sacrificing social time (the life in between). It's up to the individual what they value most as to what is most important to them. Like most things in life, balance is the ideal. 

She is materialistic if that's her focus. She obviously wants a type of lifestyle - so maybe she's being pragmatic. But [time for the slightly Budhist hat to be worn] anything can change at any given moment. Nothing is fixed or permanent. She may find she becomes 'trapped' by this way of thinking, by allowing the external to dictate her having a comfortable and happy life.


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## Shaggy

Next time, if there is one, I'm going purely for the cash.


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## Halien

Although it sounds like a subtle distinction at first, there are financial requirements that a few women openly admit to looking for, as in this link, but then many just have basic minimum financial requirements before they will even consider pursuing a relationship.

My brother, divorced, often told me for a time what it was like on the internet dating site he used. He told me that the common code word in my area is 'achiever'. Many of the profiles of middle aged women, he said, listed looking for an achiever. Maybe this is code for not wanting to date another dependent. I suspect that in some cases, though, it is code for being able to live at a certain basic financial level. Who's to say it is wrong?

About 8 years ago, the NYT did an article about what appeared to be one of the largest unmarried demographics in men. It was men approaching middle age who did not have college degrees. Several of the guys interviewed were presented as intelligent, compassionate men, but they were starting to believe that they would never be able to marry. A large percentage of them never do, according to the article.

For me, I have to admit that I have a fear, should I ever be single again, of meeting someone who is looking primarily for finances. However, based on the way that I live, with a modest home and cars, most of those types, if they exist, would avoid me like the plague. Its funny sometimes. Because I'm remodeling my home, on a given weekend, I'll be wearing pants that are Riggs workwear jeans, and a carhardt jacket, and an old LL Bean shirt that has spots of paint. So I once stopped on a whim to look at an Acura TL, a model that I had once owned. Just wanted to see what they are like nowadays. I was in my old pickup. The salesman who didn't avoid me like the rest of his crew kept trying to drag me over to the economy cars in the next bay.


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## Minncouple

Living in southern Cali, this is quite common. Everyday you see mixed match couples, and its always about the money. Nothing wrong with it, as long as both sides see it for what it is. We have a good friend who is a 82 yo guy, married to a 53 you lady. We joked about it, and actually ahve little respect for the lady as she is quite the *****, mainly due to her new found weatlth< the guy just doesnt wnat to be alone so he see's it as his bought friend.

Lucky for me, my wife married me when I had zero bucks, I am just a hillbillie who has a good work ethic and now have made it pretty well in life. I still drive a truck, but she can enjoy the Range Rover.


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## EleGirl

Most of the women I know have well paid careers and some financial success if not a lot of it. One thing the single women have talked about is that they end up meeting a good number of men who are not "achievers" who are looking to hook up with a woman who can take care of them. It becomes quite a weeding out process. Good diggers can be female or male.

Generally when a person uses their money to get a mate, they get what they were shopping for... a gold digger. And the gold digger gets what they were shopping for.. someone whose only asset is their gold.


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## Tall Average Guy

I generally don't have a problem with the idea of wanting a spouse who can support the couple and their goals. We all generally like a spouse who can be a benefit, rather than a drain, to the relationship, including financially.

That being said, the tone of this article certainly turned me off. I read (perhaps unfairly) a tone of wanting the money the guy earned to be turned into the couple's money to achieve her goals - not much different than my 22 year old nephew who complains that he can't find a job that pays like his dad's current job.


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## Runs like Dog

Pre-Nup.


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## Anubis

Thanks for the comments. The issue is bit of a touchy one for me, as I was so aware of it when dating after my divorce (which is probably why my fiance forwarded it to me).

@Tall Average Guy - you said what I was thinking. The tone of her article was one of unearned entitlement, and selfishness. Coming from someone who has no idea or experience with what it takes to earn all the money she's going to spend so quickly.

A lot more I could say, but probably best that I go to sleep.


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## nader

she sucks but at least she's honest. if I had lots of money I would do my best to steer clear of that type. It's more likely I'd look for someone who had money too so they wouldn't have their eyes on mine. It seems like the most successful marriages are between people of similar attractiveness, socio-economic status, etc, and this is probably why.


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## The_Good_Wife

Hmm interesting...

I can't say that I agree with her, but I can't say that I disagree with everything she is saying either. I agree with putting family and home before career. When I am really old I want to look back in my life and say that the thing that I am the proudest of in my life is my family! Not my career. I want to have a big famly and be the kind of family that eats dinner together every night. I don't want my kids being raised by baby-sitters because "mom's career is too important for her to attend my soccer game". But that's just me. 

With that said my husband is FAR from rich! lol His school loans are 4x bigger than mine and right now I am focusing on my career. We don't have kids. We don't own a house and we don't even have a car yet (don't really need it in the city anyways) But we both have a lot of potential. I want to create a good life for us and our future kids together with my husband. *However,* I want to know that I am married to a driven man that can have a salary that can take care of all of us if we decide that I should take a 10 year break from my career to stay home while the kids are young.


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## Therealbrighteyes

I didn't see that she said she would only marry for money. She said that she wanted a successful man as a partner among other things . I guess I don't see this any differently than a woman saying she would want a man of a certain religion or a man of a certain height. She wants security for her future family and she values a financially successful man. I've met men who wouldn't marry a woman who wasn't successful or a woman who was overweight. It's a preference really and she was honest about it. Granted her wording was a bit crass.


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## chillymorn

I try to teach both my boys grades,colledge,money


and then pre nup before marriage.


50% of all marriages fail and I am not a gambling man.



but I can't argue with staying in your income class while looking for a mate.which i think kinda happens on its own for the most part.


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## Therealbrighteyes

chillymorn said:


> but I can't argue with staying in your income class while looking for a mate.which i think kinda happens on its own for the most part.


I agree. Water reaches its own level. People marry their equal for the most part. 
The woman in this article is educated/driven and wants similar. Also, she is in NYC. $300k there isn't much. I don't think that makes her a gold digger at all. I mean if we are honest, would you want to marry someone who had little to show after say 10 years of working? Would you want to marry someone who was fiscally irresponsible and had maxed out every credit card they had? Also, are her preferences really different then say a man who wants a hot looking wife? I don't think so. :scratchhead:


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## Anubis

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Also, she is in NYC. $300k there isn't much. I don't think that makes her a gold digger at all.


Can I assume then that you are also a "1%er"? 300k is a lot, anywhere in the US, New Your City included.


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## 4understanding

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment

I think this gal is espousing something that likely any number of women have espoused throughout the ages - probably since the beginning of time. 

The only thing is that she never did say exactly what she was going to bring to the table too, did she?


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## Therealbrighteyes

Anubis said:


> Can I assume then that you are also a "1%er"? 300k is a lot, anywhere in the US, New Your City included.


How are my finances relevant to this discussion? 

My point was, she is a driven woman who wants financial security in her marriage. Is she any different than a woman who wants a tall man or a man who has blue eyes? No. 

Yes, $300k is a lot. Not there though. Not only is it the most expensive city to live in in the U.S., residents also have to pay income tax to the city of New York, the state of New York and of course the IRS. Heck, rent alone on average for a one bedroom apartment is $3800. 

I don't see her as any different than say a man who wants a blonde wife or a wife with a Master's degree.


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## Unhappy2011

Therealbrighteyes said:


> How are my finances relevant to this discussion?
> 
> My point was, she is a driven woman who wants financial security in her marriage. Is she any different than a woman who wants a tall man or a man who has blue eyes? No.
> 
> Yes, $300k is a lot. Not there though. Not only is it the most expensive city to live in in the U.S., residents also have to pay income tax to the city of New York, the state of New York and of course the IRS. Heck, rent alone on average for a one bedroom apartment is $3800.
> 
> I don't see her as any different than say a man who wants a blonde wife or a wife with a Master's degree.


I prepare tax returns for a living.

I once prepared one for a gal, I also knew personally, who lived in Manhatten and made right around $300 a year. 

As I recall, 70k went to the Fed, 20K went to NY state, and 10k went to the city.

So she had 200k left in after tax income.

I recall her rent for a modest 1 bedroom with a doorman in a modest building on Park ave was right around $3500 month.

$3500 x 12 = $42,000

So after taxes and rent she still had $158,000. 

That's not living meager.

I also know she liked to dress well and eat out at nice places almost every night, go out and take expensive vacations.

Maybe that is "normal" in New York City, but she was living quite well compared to most people.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Unhappy2011 said:


> I prepare tax returns for a living.
> 
> I once prepared one for a gal, I also knew personally, who lived in Manhatten and made right around $300 a year.
> 
> As I recall, 70k went to the Fed, 20K went to NY state, and 10k went to the city.
> 
> So she had 200k left in after tax income.
> 
> I recall her rent for a modest 1 bedroom with a doorman in a modest building on Park ave was right around $3500 month.
> 
> $3500 x 12 = $42,000
> 
> So after taxes and rent she still had $158,000.
> 
> That's not living meager.
> 
> I also know she liked to dress well and eat out at nice places almost every night, go out and take expensive vacations.
> 
> Maybe that is "normal" in New York City, but she was living quite well compared to most people.


I work in accounting as well. I am NOT suggesting that that is chump change in most of America, I am saying it is in NYC. Add in a kid and she would go broke. Health insurance for a child, day care/nanny....she wouldn't have much left. Park Avenue for $3500? Was this in the 1970's? 
The woman in this article was saying just that. She wants financial security and I don't think she is evil for stating as such. I just don't. Again, is it evil for a woman to say she only wants a certain body type or for a man to say he only wants a certain breast size? Come on. We are attracted to who we are. It doesn't make us awful. It only makes us bad if we refuse to admit it and trick someone in to believing they are what we want under some false pretense. 
This woman was honest and the fact that she had to write this article under a false name speaks volumes. Had she said "I only want a rugby player body and red hair" she would have been lauded as being truthful to her desires. Because she spoke of money, she is viewed as a gold digger and shallow.


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## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Because she spoke of money, she is viewed as a gold digger and shallow.


I think this hits a nerve with men for a number of reasons. Nothing seems more unfair to a young guy than to know that you are invisible to some women just because of wealth, which we must admit that many are just plain born into. It took me a few years to get to the place where I could see that starting out broke saved me at least some potential heartache, because someone who starts out with those standards is probably less likely to put up with a guy who has it and then loses it due to misfortune.

I went back to my home state nearly a year ago to attend my aunt's funeral. She was well respected, so many of the classmates from high school were there. Have to admit that I felt that same feelings for some of the ones who would never consider dating someone who wasn't born into money. But in the conversation before the wake, I noticed that the average one of them probably got no more than three sentences into a discussion without mentioning her husband's income, the size of their house, and their last vacation, and I realized that my world was indeed very small then, and I felt stupid for ever even sparing a thought. Okay ... to be honest, when one of the women in my class mentioned that her husband made a certain amount, which she considered impressive in that region, I mentioned that I was sure that she could be creative and find a way to make ends meet ... somehow.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Halien said:


> I think this hits a nerve with men for a number of reasons. Nothing seems more unfair to a young guy than to know that you are invisible to some women just because of wealth, which we must admit that many are just plain born into. It took me a few years to get to the place where I could see that starting out broke saved me at least some potential heartache, because someone who starts out with those standards is probably less likely to put up with a guy who has it and then loses it due to misfortune.
> 
> I went back to my home state nearly a year ago to attend my aunt's funeral. She was well respected, so many of the classmates from high school were there. Have to admit that I felt that same feelings for some of the ones who would never consider dating someone who wasn't born into money. But in the conversation before the wake, I noticed that the average one of them probably got no more than three sentences into a discussion without mentioning her husband's income, the size of their house, and their last vacation, and I realized that my world was indeed very small then, and I felt stupid for ever even sparing a thought. Okay ... to be honest, when one of the women in my class mentioned that her husband made a certain amount, which she considered impressive in that region, I mentioned that I was sure that she could be creative and find a way to make ends meet ... somehow.


I am not talking about being born in to money. What I am saying is is it wrong for the woman who wrote the article to want a man who is successful and strive to be the very best? It sounds like she is willing to do the same. I just don't see this as gold digging.


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## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I am NOT talking about those who are born in to wealth. Come on. Most are not, they earn it.
> Honestly, I don't many women who would pass up a guy with aspirations or drive. Just as I don't know many men who would pass up a woman with intelligence and a goal.
> What you are talking about is a woman who tosses a guy aside simply because he wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Those women are not who I am talking about.
> Come on Halien. I know about your childhood and you know about mine. What I am saying is that for all the struggles I went through to get to the point that I am now, I do not nor should I apologize for wanting to and marrying a man with goals/dreams and the ability to make his happen. Nor should he apologize for marrying a smart and intelligent woman who is his "right hand person".


I'm not justifying bitterness towards the standards some women hold. Just pointing out that some guys are pretty sensitive to this. It can be a hot button issue in some regions, so we can bring baggage into the whole discussion. It speaks volumes about our roots. Often, a guy who will think nothing of these comments will probably come from middle class to upper middle class families, I think. Or maybe from a very diverse region. Those who work had to climb out of poverty will often prefer to hear those regards spoken of in terms of work ethic. In my high school, a woman would be more likely to say that she wanted a husband who could stay out of jail.


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## SoWhat

This is the sort of woman I'd advise my friends to lie to about their incomes.
She's looking to use you - use her instead. 
How could one possibly feel guilty about that?


People like this generally lack any sort of desire to see anything deeper in life than what's on the surface. I have a feeling she's more comfortable talking about Louboutin than The Leviathan .

Can't imagine she'd stick around with you if/when things got tough either. Because then she doesn't have her "security"


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## Anubis

Therealbrighteyes said:


> How are my finances relevant to this discussion?


I was wondering about your perspective because my personal perspective and opinion on income is quite different from yours. I've noticed that if people achieve to certain level, they assume everyone else can or they look down upon those people who don't reach their level, even if their level is statistically anomalous. (see Rich People Still Don't Realize They're Rich - NYTimes.com )



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yes, $300k is a lot. Not there though. Not only is it the most expensive city to live in in the U.S., residents also have to pay income tax to the city of New York, the state of New York and of course the IRS. Heck, rent alone on average for a one bedroom apartment is $3800


I've been looking up some stats. First I want to ask: if $300K is not a lot, then is $200K in NYC considered poverty?

In 2005, the average family income of the 80th to 95 percentile families was $109K. For the top 5% it was $263K. (source www.fiscalpolicy.org/PullingApartInNewYork_April2008.pdf )

There there is this image at image  at Map Of The Day: Income Distribution In NYC: Gothamist (video there also).

Data more recent than 2008 is hard to come by, but given the state of the financial markets since then, I am not assuming that incomes in NYC have increased substantially across the board.

So I am separating the issues here. 

One is about a woman's desire to marry into money. 

The other is your saying that $300k/yr income in NYC is 'chump change'. 

They can be completely disconnected from each other. I suppose in a small insular part of NYC, it is true. But for the city as any sort of whole, I believe 300K represents less than 1 in 20-25 or so families, and disagree with the idea that 95%+ of New York City's population should be considering themselves as economic failures.


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## EleGirl

Halien said:


> *Nothing seems more unfair to a young guy than to know that you are invisible to some women just because of wealth, *


Why should the young guys feel bad when the vast majority of women do not use money as the major criteria for marriage? The field they have to pick from is huge? Do these young men only want the gold digger kind of women? Or women who are themselves wealthy?
It's not like money is the only thing that is unfair in the mating game.

Is it unfair to unattractive women that most men would not give them a second look, much less marry them?

Is it unfair most well educated men will not marry a woman who is not also well educated?

The list of things that are not fair in the mating game is very long. 

Most of us set standards of who we will even consider to date and marry. It’s a fact of life.


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## Anubis

I was going to say that you understate the importance of economic potential for young men who are interested in settling down or attracting mates who are (important distinction)... then you said this:



EleGirl said:


> The list of things that are not fair in the mating game is very long.
> 
> Most of us set standards of who we will even consider to date and marry. It’s a fact of life.


Which I feel is 100% dead on and well put.  

Life is not remotely fair. Both men and women should avoid getting involved with anyone who seems hung up on making sure that "life is fair". Because it will turn into 'you need make sure that life is fair _*for me *_(does not apply to you, just me)'


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## SoWhat

I love the euphemisms that abound in these sort of discussions - "successful" is my favorite (are lottery winners 'successful'? Was Kafka successful? Was Jesus Christ/Buddha successful?). "Ambitious," "driven," "secure," etc. are all good too.


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## MEM2020

Bright,
Her "blunt" delivery style didn't bother me. What I found interesting was how completely "self" focused she was. There wasn't anything in there about her plans to make this arrangement symbiotic with her future husband. 

I think she may discover that she replaces corporate busy work with boring housework/cooking/etc. 

Then again, she may find a guy who is willing to work 50-60 hours a week and come home and do a lot of housework. Frankly I doubt it. 

My W also prioritized ambition and financial stability in mate selection. She also treated her job like any other job. And that meant when I got home - she didn't expect me to do anything other than play with the kids. Turns out I like to cook - so on the weekends I often helped with/cooked. But if she had expected me to do a "lot of"/"half" the housework on top of my career we wouldn't have stayed together. Or if she had "resented me" for not having the time to do that stuff - we wouldn't have stayed together. My long work weeks made money a non-issue for us/her/the kids. 

And it was "our" money. Not "my" money. She was just a critical to me as I was to her. 

It is also true that when she was put on bed rest during a tough pregnancy, I hired a woman for four months to do "everything" including watch the little ones we already had. That was an 8K "surprise". We always lived well within our means - so when stuff like that came up, we paid for it as it happened. 





Therealbrighteyes said:


> I didn't see that she said she would only marry for money. She said that she wanted a successful man as a partner among other things . I guess I don't see this any differently than a woman saying she would want a man of a certain religion or a man of a certain height. She wants security for her future family and she values a financially successful man. I've met men who wouldn't marry a woman who wasn't successful or a woman who was overweight. It's a preference really and she was honest about it. Granted her wording was a bit crass.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Fine, [email protected] it. I did grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth. I was the adopted child of wealthy parents. I also suffered abuse more than you could ever understand. Burned, beaten and starved. I guess all is well if the scars and bruises were covered up with makeup. It was "all okay" because I was not really theirs but yeah, I grew up with money. Poor little rich girl I guess. 
After I left them and told them in no uncertain terms to go to hell, I was removed from all family records. It was/is as if I never existed. I got a certified letter stating I was no longer part of the "family".
I got pregnant with my now husbands child who I have know since the age of 9. Of course when they found all that out, they wanted to throw a HUGE wedding because after all, they are just so important. The wedding was enormous and ridiculous. I should have again told them to go to hell but hormones took over and I wanted my family. Idiot. My father literally told me while walking me down the aisle that "If you screw this up....nobody will want you". 

My husband is brilliant. Funny and beyond amazing. He came from a middle class family. We scraped by on $800 a month salary while he was going to school in California. That included rent, utilities, groceries and expensive formula for our baby. I sold my engagement ring to pay rent and I used to clean apartments at night to help put food in our fridge. I used money that was left to me from my Grandfather...the one who tried like hell to adopt me away from these monsters, to send my now husband to grad school. 

We have built up what we have now. A very comfortable life, a gorgeous home and two sons who never grew up thinking their "son-hood" came with a condition. 
I will not apologize for any of this. I will NOT apologize for wanting the creature comforts in life without the beatings and conditions. Not a chance in hell. If that makes me a gold digger, then so be it. 

I think this women is simply saying she doesn't want to go through a fraction of what I did and no, I don't blame her.


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## MEM2020

Damn. That was a hard read. WTF. Why adopt a child and then be so abusive? People do the damndest things.

Did your adoptive parents have bio children as well?



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Fine, [email protected] it. I did grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth. I was the adopted child of wealthy parents. I also suffered abuse more than you could ever understand. Burned, beaten and starved. I guess all is well if the scars and bruises are covered up with makeup. It was "all okay" because I was not really theirs but yeah, I grew up with money. Poor little rich girl I guess.
> I have a son (age 19) who has seen his "grandparents" 5 times in his life and that was when I was still feeling generous to them. My youngest is 14 and never saw them in his life.
> After I left them and told them in no uncertain terms to go to hell, I was removed from all family records. It was/is as if I never existed. I got a certified letter stating I was no longer part of the "family".
> I got pregnant with my now husband's child who I have know since the age of 9. He is brilliant. Funny and beyond amazing. He came from a middle class family. We scraped by on $800 a month salary while he was going to school in California. That included rent, utilities, groceries and expensive formula for our baby.
> We have built up what we have now. A very comfortable life, a gorgeous home and two sons who never grew up thinking their "son-hood" came with a condition.
> I will not apologize for any of this. I will NOT apologize for wanting the creature comforts in life without the beatings and conditions. Not a chance in hell.


----------



## Anubis

What the? I'm not seeing where this jumped from income in NYC into being about brighteyes childhood and personal choices/preferences... Did I miss some PMs or something?


----------



## Unhappy2011

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I work in accounting as well. I am NOT suggesting that that is chump change in most of America, I am saying it is in NYC. Add in a kid and she would go broke. Health insurance for a child, day care/nanny....she wouldn't have much left.


If somebody making 300k a year even in NYC is broke, they are bad at managing their money.


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## SimplyAmorous

If anything, it shows that riches will never have the power to make people happy, it can not make better parents, it can not ensure better marraiges..... her adopted parents were miserable & they spat on others, even those they called "their own". 

Some of the most "giving" people that walk this earth have been on the poorer side at one time, they rose from the ashes - or experienced hardship as they were growing up, which has endowed them with a bigger heart , even a passion for helping the less fortunate ....depending on the type of character you are made of - will play out in how you deal with that scenerio, and how ultimately ...you view, care for, or "use" others in this world.


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## OhGeesh

What I find more fascinating is what some........ actually many young college women are doing these days on various sugar daddy sites.

Now that's capitalism at it's finest!! Read some of those stories and they will blow your mind. 

If I could have boned a 40-50yr old woman once or twice a month when I was 20 and made 2-3K, plus dinners, and gifts, etc you better believe I would have been on that like white on rice!!

There are benefits to being a woman after all!! Just joking of course........


2nd part is I agree money can't do alot, but as someone who when from living nicely to filing BK to getting married having kids and etc. I've seen a good bit. The wife and I do and live in the south and it's alot easier being in the top 3% then making 50K/yr!! So, no money can't buy happiness for us if you were already happy it sure takes the stress out of life and makes it more fun and enjoyable.


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## SimplyAmorous

OhGeesh said:


> What I find more fascinating is what some........ actually many young college women are doing these days on various sugar daddy sites.


WOW , eye opening, what is the world coming too. 

Choose your link ... college sugar daddy sites - Google Search

The Best Sugar Daddy Sites on the Web

College Debt? Where is your Sugar Daddy? — RT

Seeking Arrangement: College Students Using 'Sugar Daddies' To Pay Off Loan Debt


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Bright,
> Her "blunt" delivery style didn't bother me. What I found interesting was how completely "self" focused she was. There wasn't anything in there about her plans to make this arrangement symbiotic with her future husband.
> 
> I think she may discover that she replaces corporate busy work with boring housework/cooking/etc.
> 
> Then again, she may find a guy who is willing to work 50-60 hours a week and come home and do a lot of housework. Frankly I doubt it.
> 
> My W also prioritized ambition and financial stability in mate selection. She also treated her job like any other job. And that meant when I got home - she didn't expect me to do anything other than play with the kids. Turns out I like to cook - so on the weekends I often helped with/cooked. But if she had expected me to do a "lot of"/"half" the housework on top of my career we wouldn't have stayed together. Or if she had "resented me" for not having the time to do that stuff - we wouldn't have stayed together. My long work weeks made money a non-issue for us/her/the kids.
> 
> And it was "our" money. Not "my" money. She was just a critical to me as I was to her.
> 
> It is also true that when she was put on bed rest during a tough pregnancy, I hired a woman for four months to do "everything" including watch the little ones we already had. That was an 8K "surprise". We always lived well within our means - so when stuff like that came up, we paid for it as it happened.


I would be a liar if I said that part of the attraction to my husband wasn't his intelligence. I revere it. He is a member of Mensa and socially awkward. He is BEYOND brilliant yet in a social situation struggles to open up. No, I am not talking he speaks of quantum physics....he just doesn't have an opening if you will to meet new people. 
At his company Christmas party there were guys he never had met and he was trying to stay engaged. Two flew in from NYC and were senior management. I could see him from a distance struggling. I walked up, grabbed his waist, gave a wicked smile to all the men there and said "Hey, ever hear the joke about a goose who is about to be a turducken?" They waited to hear my husband deliver the punchline and nearly died laughing when he did. 
I never treated my job as anything but my job, I work in accounting. What I excel at however are social graces. My husband has benefited from my social skills and my ability to socialize with others. Yes, he would say that as well. Just tonight in fact.


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Damn. That was a hard read. WTF. Why adopt a child and then be so abusive? People do the damndest things.
> 
> Did your adoptive parents have bio children as well?


They were unable to have children. When they were in their 20's people just figured it was them waiting. In their 30's they started thinking about kids but yeah, no.....they really were too self absorbed to ever care about kids. At the age of 40 and 41 they adopted my twin and I. Love? Hardly. They just got sick of hearing "What is wrong with you" and this solved it all. I barely saw my parents. 
No bio kids at all. We were it and yet they hated us and I hated them equally. Both dead now and I didn't go to either of their funerals. 
I did however grow up in a life of luxury. Truly if money means everything. I do NOT value money above all else. I value love above all else.


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## AFEH

Anubis said:


> My fiance just sent this link to me:
> 
> Money Mic: Why I Want to Marry Rich
> 
> tl:dr = "I'm 23, Female and I want to marry a guy who makes 300K /yr and has $1Million in assets"
> 
> I'm just curious what the guys here think about her and her plans. (holding my own tongue for now)


I find the woman in the article exceedingly distasteful, like I want to spit her out. Feels like I stepped in something and can’t wait to get it off my foot and I’m wondering why.


I think it is her sheer and unbelievable shallowness. Her duplicity, deception, dishonesty, disloyalty, treachery, fraudulence and betrayal, is beyond mind boggling.


Plus as far as economics and financial security are concerned she's just plain dumb. Not got two brain cells to rub together.


----------



## Halien

EleGirl said:


> Why should the young guys feel bad when the vast majority of women do not use money as the major criteria for marriage? The field they have to pick from is huge? Do these young men only want the gold digger kind of women? Or women who are themselves wealthy?
> It's not like money is the only thing that is unfair in the mating game.
> 
> Is it unfair to unattractive women that most men would not give them a second look, much less marry them?
> 
> Is it unfair most well educated men will not marry a woman who is not also well educated?
> 
> The list of things that are not fair in the mating game is very long.
> 
> Most of us set standards of who we will even consider to date and marry. It’s a fact of life.


You are right, and I would say the same thing to a young guy today, but this is usually the time of our lives (the dating years) when we are least prepared to handle these kinds of things with wisdom. Its sort of like me telling my daughter not to be nervous because she has to give a speech in front of a class of 300 students. I tell my daughter that there is no reason to be nervous, but that won't change the fact that she is. Its instinctive. Personally, I would've hopped a fast running train to avoid the woman in that article. While it implies a healthy set of expectations to some, to others, it sounds like a person who thinks that her place in life should be assured through no action of her own, other than marriage. I just find it very interesting that people will react to situations like this based on our own roots. Not at all trying to make a values judgement out of it. I bet that even those young guys with pocket protectors, the boys who sat together in a booth at the local hangout, and passed time speculating as to what they would do if they were propelled backwards through an einstein rosenberg bridge, would hate her for their own nerdy reasons.


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## Halien

Anubis said:


> I was wondering about your perspective because my personal perspective and opinion on income is quite different from yours. I've noticed that if people achieve to certain level, they assume everyone else can or they look down upon those people who don't reach their level, even if their level is statistically anomalous.


I'm not too sure about this. I see what you are saying when you mention that people often don't understand why everyone else can't do the same financially, but I've watched some interesting studies on it locally. We know that people in upper middle incomes are often usually insulated from other sectors. But now, I live in an area where the combined husband/wife income among the people of my burb is close to $200k, but there are quite a few millionaires when you consider that most put our money into retirement plans. There were some local public radio shows that explored how people can be oblivious to what it is like for people living in lower middle class, or poverty. They make the assumption that the same openings and opportunities they enjoyed are pretty much available to all. The looking down their noses aspect is due largely to the fact that they don't know that there are invisible walls, like not being able to afford college tuition, etc. So, a local program allows people to live a day in the life of a poor person, with the hope that they will begin to reach out more, and help others.

To bring it home for me, I had a pretty interesting experience. Its customary where I work that if you get a new manager from another area, you may have to take him on a tour of your key suppliers and facilities. I once took my young manager to the area where I grew up, where a key supplier owned a facility. This manager grew up here, in upper middle class environments. He was making fun of some of the customs of the people he met at the supplier's factory, but it wasn't intentional. So, I asked if he wanted to spend an afternoon taking a little ride. I showed him the community where I grew up, and even the small native american settlement. Showed him another area with a trailer park, too. We stopped at a small restaraunt, and I talked to old friends. It dramatically changed my manager. He now claims that I was his mentor in life. He now works with me in a local volunteer organization occasionally. I think he makes about $500k, but as you probably know, nowadays, people in the business world who make $300k or more tend to make much more than that in incentives and stock options. We work for a company that tends to only promote people who can show leadership in outside organizations that help the community at large, so this guy learned maturity that also help his career.


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## SimplyAmorous

Halien said:


> He was making fun of some of the customs of the people he met at the supplier's factory, but it wasn't intentional. So, I asked if he wanted to spend an afternoon taking a little ride. I showed him the community where I grew up, and even the small native american settlement. Showed him another area with a trailer park, too. We stopped at a small restaraunt, and I talked to old friends. It dramatically changed my manager. He now claims that I was his mentor in life. He now works with me in a local volunteer organization occasionally


Beautiful, we need more mentors like you Halien. :smthumbup:


----------



## Halien

SimplyAmorous said:


> Beautiful, we need more mentors like you Halien. :smthumbup:


Believe me, it wasn't really intentional. I just thought the guy was a spoiled brat, and thought I'd show him life in black and white terms. Now, he's a much different kind of guy. Years before, I had volunteered as a mentor for a few disadvantaged college students in that area, after a cold call from a professor. This guy, my manager, helped with the program, but our recruitors later took it over. A minority engineering magazine honored us a few years back, with a plaque and an article, but it really started because I thought the guy was a bit of a silver spoon. Sorry for derailing the thread.


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## Runs like Dog

Whatever floats your boat, I guess. People marry for all sorts of 'one thing' things, no? They marry for sex or because they want a kid or money or whatnot. It's unlikely that one reason is morally superior to another reason, in that sense


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## FirstYearDown

TRBE and I are friends because our childhoods were sadly similar.

I come from an upper middle class family, with an abusive and narcissistic mother. I am the black sheep because I am the only one brave enough to call Mommie Dearest on her BS.

I was always very compassionate and aware of the needs of others, despite growing up with money. When I left home, I had nothing but the clothes on my back. I was broke and living hand to mouth, but I was happy and triumphant. I learned how to rely on my wits and be independent. 

They wouldn't talk to me for nearly a year after I eloped. I was supposed to allow my mother to plan a spectacle, so she could look rich. I refused to play into her need to show off, especially since she was horribly abusive. 

They are talking to us again, but I still wish my mother would go off somewhere and die. I have no interest in being her "best friend" like she wants. Psycho Mom's guilt is not my problem and I do not feel emotionally safe with her.

I know that I am not a gold digger, because I would have left my husband when he lost his job. I sacrificed having the wedding I wanted, because I did not want to have a credit card wedding. After everything I have been through, I know that love is priceless. 

He treats me with the respect and dignity every woman should enjoy. My husband coddles me and tries to provide little extras. "You have had a hard life. I want to help you smile and make up for all the years that you suffered."


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## Anubis

The issue of marrying for money is more nuanced than it may appear at first glance. It's nice to see a lot of different viewpoints here.

We get into relationships in order get our needs met, and some of those needs are instinctual. And acquiring resources can be considered a need. But from there it easy to see a multidimensional continuum from hard needs to daydream wishes. 

And then there is our personal perspectives. It appears to me that the group of us here are self-selected, with values and beliefs in what makes a healthy marriage and what it takes to have one. 

That said, a woman trading her youth and beauty for access to man's wealth and power has been going on since the dawn of time. It's something that just is and isn't going to go away. Though there are some interesting ramifications of that behavior in our current society. In the case of the woman who wrote the article two things stood out to me.

The first thing was that was they she appeared incredibly self-centered and selfish. A lot of us are here because we believe working for a marriage that's a win-win partnership where both parties are getting all of their needs (which can be exclusively satisfied in a legal/moral sense only by their spouse) met by each other, and feeling is one of having each others backs. The author seems to be entirely focused on what she is getting and showed no concern for her future spouse or indication that she would do anything for him beyond the bare minimum. It's incredible easy to image him coming on to these forums in the future and writing about how he is getting no sex, no respect, no support, etc from his wife. That tends to rub the value systems of most posters here the wrong way.

The second thing that came across to me was that she is waaaay over-estimating her market value. As many people have already asked 'what is she bringing to the table?' Though there are plenty of high income earners in NYC, as we've already discussed there aren't as many might think that meet her criteria fo $300k/1M, and of those, how many are single and available? I'm going to bet most men in that group are already married or off the market (though I'm sure many would take her as a piece of a** on the side). Add in her other requirements (I'm sure she has some such as 6ft tall, good looking, etc) and that means she isn't going meet a man who ticks all her check boxes every time she walks into a coffee shop. Now is she as equally rare? I don't think so. She's young and way more naive than she thinks she is (or so I think). I will bet the supply of young women competing for her target man is larger than the supply of target men. So how does she stack up to her competition? Because the mating game IS competitive - both sides usually are looking to attract the best mate they can (yes, I know plenty of you will chip in your stories of being exceptions, but that can be another thread). she's young and probably pretty but I saw nothing she wrote to indicate that she stands out from the legions of other young women who go to NYC to find their futures and fortunes (and I've personally known a couple women who have done exactly that). I suspect that she considers her feminine wiles to be so great and never seen before that her future BF won't stand a chance to not be won over by her. 

Maybe I'm wrong in sizing her up, but I feel she is self-deluding herself and in the process of finding that out the hard way, she's going annoy a bunch of people around her. Though I am not on the east coast/NYC, I do live in an environment where there is *a lot *of money - a couple miles away from the home of the richest man in America, and in the middle of a lot of high-tech and corporate HQs. And around here there are PLENTY of young women with ambitions to land a rich man, as well as plenty who already are due to birth or marriage (and some who earned it themselves - much smaller group though). Maybe she thinks she's the only gal out there who thought of her great plan.

I'm reminded of this: snopes entry on a craigslist post looking for rich man in NYC

and this WSJ: Marrying for Love ... of Money

In the end, I don't mind that she wants to marry money. I do mind her self-centeredness at the expense of whomever she lands.

And time to cut this post short... Off to make my meager living.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Don't marry his/her massive debt. That's for damn sure.


----------



## MEM2020

Anubis,
Well said. It isn't what she "wants" - but rather her utter lack of consideration as to what would make this a mutually beneficial marriage. 

Kind of humorous - while she has no interest in subjecting herself to "repetitive corporate work" not once did she acknowledge that her entire life would be predicated on her spouse doing just that. 





Anubis said:


> The issue of marrying for money is more nuanced than it may appear at first glance. It's nice to see a lot of different viewpoints here.
> 
> We get into relationships in order get our needs met, and some of those needs are instinctual. And acquiring resources can be considered a need. But from there it easy to see a multidimensional continuum from hard needs to daydream wishes.
> 
> And then there is our personal perspectives. It appears to me that the group of us here are self-selected, with values and beliefs in what makes a healthy marriage and what it takes to have one.
> 
> That said, a woman trading her youth and beauty for access to man's wealth and power has been going on since the dawn of time. It's something that just is and isn't going to go away. Though there are some interesting ramifications of that behavior in our current society. In the case of the woman who wrote the article two things stood out to me.
> 
> The first thing was that was they she appeared incredibly self-centered and selfish. A lot of us are here because we believe working for a marriage that's a win-win partnership where both parties are getting all of their needs (which can be exclusively satisfied in a legal/moral sense only by their spouse) met by each other, and feeling is one of having each others backs. The author seems to be entirely focused on what she is getting and showed no concern for her future spouse or indication that she would do anything for him beyond the bare minimum. It's incredible easy to image him coming on to these forums in the future and writing about how he is getting no sex, no respect, no support, etc from his wife. That tends to rub the value systems of most posters here the wrong way.
> 
> The second thing that came across to me was that she is waaaay over-estimating her market value. As many people have already asked 'what is she bringing to the table?' Though there are plenty of high income earners in NYC, as we've already discussed there aren't as many might think that meet her criteria fo $300k/1M, and of those, how many are single and available? I'm going to bet most men in that group are already married or off the market (though I'm sure many would take her as a piece of a** on the side). Add in her other requirements (I'm sure she has some such as 6ft tall, good looking, etc) and that means she isn't going meet a man who ticks all her check boxes every time she walks into a coffee shop. Now is she as equally rare? I don't think so. She's young and way more naive than she thinks she is (or so I think). I will bet the supply of young women competing for her target man is larger than the supply of target men. So how does she stack up to her competition? Because the mating game IS competitive - both sides usually are looking to attract the best mate they can (yes, I know plenty of you will chip in your stories of being exceptions, but that can be another thread). she's young and probably pretty but I saw nothing she wrote to indicate that she stands out from the legions of other young women who go to NYC to find their futures and fortunes (and I've personally known a couple women who have done exactly that). I suspect that she considers her feminine wiles to be so great and never seen before that her future BF won't stand a chance to not be won over by her.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong in sizing her up, but I feel she is self-deluding herself and in the process of finding that out the hard way, she's going annoy a bunch of people around her. Though I am not on the east coast/NYC, I do live in an environment where there is *a lot *of money - a couple miles away from the home of the richest man in America, and in the middle of a lot of high-tech and corporate HQs. And around here there are PLENTY of young women with ambitions to land a rich man, as well as plenty who already are due to birth or marriage (and some who earned it themselves - much smaller group though). Maybe she thinks she's the only gal out there who thought of her great plan.
> 
> I'm reminded of this: snopes entry on a craigslist post looking for rich man in NYC
> 
> and this WSJ: Marrying for Love ... of Money
> 
> In the end, I don't mind that she wants to marry money. I do mind her self-centeredness at the expense of whomever she lands.
> 
> And time to cut this post short... Off to make my meager living.


----------



## Halien

MEM11363 said:


> Anubis,
> Kind of humorous - while she has no interest in subjecting herself to "repetitive corporate work" not once did she acknowledge that her entire life would be predicated on her spouse doing just that.


There is an element of this in our family circles, it always really got under my skin. My wife is a professional, and only worked one day a week to keep her credentials while the kids were young. We were in complete agreement, but with her depression, agreed that she should work more when they got older. Months into the ramped up part time work life, after agreeing to work three days a week, she began complaining about how unfair it was that they kept asking her to work a fourth day. I understand that it was new to her, after being out for a while, but wasn't prepared for her rationale: She said that at 45, she's paid her dues. She needs her time to do things on her own. I asked, "what about me?" I rarely have a day where I'm not working with colleages from aroung the world late at night or early in the morning. I work the corporate world. Always spend part of Saturday in the office, too. She casually informed me that I still have 20 more years to go (this is when I lock in the pension plan, and final stock options are released). My daughter passed by and told me to shut my mouth - I was gathering flies, I guess, stunned by what seemed to be a double standard.

And yes, we share chores and cooking equally, but pay for some of the cleaning and cooking.


----------



## heartsbeating

I have been following this thread and shared some of the sentiments expressed with my husband last night - following something he said when he got home from work. He's always had drive and taken pride in whatever work he has undertaken. He doesn't have a degree but the life experience, drive, and exposure to certain people have helped him along the way. He is now working at a company where his colleagues have worked their way up and have degrees. He's a bit of a welcomed novelty, and breath of fresh air, as it's unheard of that an 'outsider' is employed for this level. His experience is bringing a lot to the table.

While I'm extremely proud of him, not for the role itself but for his get up and go, he was actually having thoughts that I might consider him a 'sell out' or some such thing lol. I was taken aback by this because I'm often telling him how great I think he's doing. I firmly told him there's no way I think that. I reminded him of everything he's achieved in his career, and reminded him that he did this all on his own merit. I told him these days, that's somewhat unheard of. I think it's something to be proud of and humbled by, to recognize not everyone has these opportunities. He knows that I don't care what he does so long as we can afford to live and he's somewhat happy and/or challenged in his job, as I know that's important to him. Thankfully this company is also very committed to work/life balance. I thanked him for going to work for us. I told him I would never think of him as a 'sell out' ...I am extremely proud.


----------



## Anubis

MEM11363 said:


> Anubis,
> Well said. It isn't what she "wants" - but rather her utter lack of consideration as to what would make this a mutually beneficial marriage.
> 
> Kind of humorous - while she has no interest in subjecting herself to "repetitive corporate work" not once did she acknowledge that her entire life would be predicated on her spouse doing just that.


Says volumes about what she thinks of him, and her place in the universe, doesn't it? 



Halien said:


> Months into the ramped up part time work life, after agreeing to work three days a week, she began complaining about how unfair it was that they kept asking her to work a fourth day. I understand that it was new to her, after being out for a while, but wasn't prepared for her rationale: She said that at 45, she's paid her dues. She needs her time to do things on her own. I asked, "what about me?" I rarely have a day where I'm not working with colleages from aroung the world late at night or early in the morning. I work the corporate world. Always spend part of Saturday in the office, too. She casually informed me that I still have 20 more years to go (this is when I lock in the pension plan, and final stock options are released). My daughter passed by and told me to shut my mouth - I was gathering flies, I guess, stunned by what seemed to be a double standard.


A big giant *THIS*. 

Right up there with not understanding how important sex is to a man, is women who think it's no big deal/not very significant for a man to bust his *ss at a career and climb up the corporate/business ladder in order to provide more for his family.

... Emotionally scarring backstory time (bonus points if you get the reference) ...

I lived this in my first marriage. When I met her, my now ex-wife worked not quite full-time for her parent's business. She worked only for the first couple years of our marriage. She never made more than about $16k a year. As she could afford to put me in debt, she stopped working and went back to school (on a part time pace), indulged in her "hobbies", and rode around on her motorcycle. He rationale was "We'll be having kids real soon". Due to medical issues (mostly her weight going up) that didn't happen for several years, while I worked the overtime to provide and build a career.

When our first child finally came along, right about the same time our finances got a boost (my pre-tax share of a buyout was nearly a million), we moved on up into the nicer neighborhood, etc so she could show off her new baby and status to the other moms. Despite my working, I wound up doing a significant amount of the housework, and child watching, as she made every increasing demands. She would actually call me up at work, and tell me to drive home (30 minute drive) and watch the kids so she could take a nap, go to the movies, whatever. She did this a lot (when she couldn't get her mother or someone else to watch the kids).

Zero concern or respect for what was going on at my work. Didn't matter if I was in a big meeting or whatnot. And if I didn't come home when she called, I got a s**tstorm of abuse when I did get home - ripping into me every way possible and threats. (yes, I know, I should have manned up earlier and sent her to visit Hoffa, err... kicker her butt to the curb  ). I can certainly appreciate what happens to beat a person down year after year.

What galled me even more was how as I became more successful financially, she would more frequently tear me down and deride me for not making even more money... and at the same time shame me for not being home and doing even more with the children (for nearly year when my son was an infant, I stayed up from dinner until 4am with him, then went to work at 9am... every day). She got even more brazen with me making a few choice quotes that she now denies ever making. ex: Her new hubby-to-be (did I mention alimony just ended?) makes only 1/5th what she repeatedly told me should could 'easily find' to replace me. I love karma.

Anyway, I shall end the backstory before my blood pressure goes up, and share the relevant current observation.

My fiance has kids very young (19) and did the SAHM thing. After her divorce (she's NCP), she went back to school and finished up a double sci/math masters and at 31 just got her first job in the corporate world. About 3 months after she started working like most of us men do (working over at a company that makes operating systems which rhyme with 'wind blows'  ) she came home one night and started a conversation with this:

"Holy. Freaking. Cow!" 

"I had no idea this is what you men go through in the workplace" (referring to the overtime, pointy haired bosses, office politics, etc). 

We went on to discuss her workplace life versus what it was like when she was a stay at home mom. The biggest points were that as a mom she had a lot more leeway if something didn't get done on a given day, and no boss who would get on her case about it if it didn't. But in the workplace there were hard deliverables to be met, set hours that had to be put in.. every day, and bosses who could be bullies and co-workers who were a-holes, but whom you had to respect lest your career suffer, or even be out of a job....and that your paycheck was totally dependent on all of this. At home, she could demand and receive an environment that didn't upset her and get things changed to her liking. At the workplace, it was deal with it or GTFO. And time off/away from work got a lot more formal with it being a limited resource to manage carefully (and usually requiring advance approval from a boss).

I have to feel that there a lot of men, who don't feel fully appreciated for the work they do and the amount of time in the lives they are sacrificing, doing a job that is not their life's calling, just so they can provide a good home and life for their wife and kids. As more women come take on careers the way men have, some of them are really appreciating what most men have been told by society to just shut up and do. But I do see that some of them, upon finding out what it is like out there, start looking around for the man who will give them the option to not have to pursue work/career to the same extent anymore.


----------



## MEM2020

I have the "full" version of this post somewhere but this is the cliff note version. My father in law was incredibly handy. He could do it all - electric, carpentry, plumbing, tile, etc. super nice guy as well.

My W used to make the occasional snippy comment about me being unhandy and unmotivated to become handy. One day I said something like this "every time you see someone here doing something handy - we are paying for it with money earned by my long days, my clever use of a computer - my million and a half miles in the air doing whatever was needed. The next time you see one of those guys - you think for a moment about why it is so effortless to pay them.....

I got an apology and an end to snippy comments.....



UOTE=Anubis;556419]Says volumes about what she thinks of him, and her place in the universe, doesn't it? 



A big giant *THIS*. 

Right up there with not understanding how important sex is to a man, is women who think it's no big deal/not very significant for a man to bust his *ss at a career and climb up the corporate/business ladder in order to provide more for his family.

... Emotionally scarring backstory time (bonus points if you get the reference) ...

I lived this in my first marriage. When I met her, my now ex-wife worked not quite full-time for her parent's business. She worked only for the first couple years of our marriage. She never made more than about $16k a year. As she could afford to put me in debt, she stopped working and went back to school (on a part time pace), indulged in her "hobbies", and rode around on her motorcycle. He rationale was "We'll be having kids real soon". Due to medical issues (mostly her weight going up) that didn't happen for several years, while I worked the overtime to provide and build a career.

When our first child finally came along, right about the same time our finances got a boost (my pre-tax share of a buyout was nearly a million), we moved on up into the nicer neighborhood, etc so she could show off her new baby and status to the other moms. Despite my working, I wound up doing a significant amount of the housework, and child watching, as she made every increasing demands. She would actually call me up at work, and tell me to drive home (30 minute drive) and watch the kids so she could take a nap, go to the movies, whatever. She did this a lot (when she couldn't get her mother or someone else to watch the kids).

Zero concern or respect for what was going on at my work. Didn't matter if I was in a big meeting or whatnot. And if I didn't come home when she called, I got a s**tstorm of abuse when I did get home - ripping into me every way possible and threats. (yes, I know, I should have manned up earlier and sent her to visit Hoffa, err... kicker her butt to the curb  ). I can certainly appreciate what happens to beat a person down year after year.

What galled me even more was how as I became more successful financially, she would more frequently tear me down and deride me for not making even more money... and at the same time shame me for not being home and doing even more with the children (for nearly year when my son was an infant, I stayed up from dinner until 4am with him, then went to work at 9am... every day). She got even more brazen with me making a few choice quotes that she now denies ever making. ex: Her new hubby-to-be (did I mention alimony just ended?) makes only 1/5th what she repeatedly told me should could 'easily find' to replace me. I love karma.

Anyway, I shall end the backstory before my blood pressure goes up, and share the relevant current observation.

My fiance has kids very young (19) and did the SAHM thing. After her divorce (she's NCP), she went back to school and finished up a double sci/math masters and at 31 just got her first job in the corporate world. About 3 months after she started working like most of us men do (working over at a company that makes operating systems which rhyme with 'wind blows'  ) she came home one night and started a conversation with this:

"Holy. Freaking. Cow!" 

"I had no idea this is what you men go through in the workplace" (referring to the overtime, pointy haired bosses, office politics, etc). 

We went on to discuss her workplace life versus what it was like when she was a stay at home mom. The biggest points were that as a mom she had a lot more leeway if something didn't get done on a given day, and no boss who would get on her case about it if it didn't. But in the workplace there were hard deliverables to be met, set hours that had to be put in.. every day, and bosses who could be bullies and co-workers who were a-holes, but whom you had to respect lest your career suffer, or even be out of a job....and that your paycheck was totally dependent on all of this. At home, she could demand and receive an environment that didn't upset her and get things changed to her liking. At the workplace, it was deal with it or GTFO. And time off/away from work got a lot more formal with it being a limited resource to manage carefully (and usually requiring advance approval from a boss).

I have to feel that there a lot of men, who don't feel fully appreciated for the work they do and the amount of time in the lives they are sacrificing, doing a job that is not their life's calling, just so they can provide a good home and life for their wife and kids. As more women come take on careers the way men have, some of them are really appreciating what most men have been told by society to just shut up and do. But I do see that some of them, upon finding out what it is like out there, start looking around for the man who will give them the option to not have to pursue work/career to the same extent anymore.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SockPuppet

Anubis said:


> My fiance just sent this link to me:
> 
> Money Mic: Why I Want to Marry Rich
> 
> tl:dr = "I'm 23, Female and I want to marry a guy who makes 300K /yr and has $1Million in assets"
> 
> I'm just curious what the guys here think about her and her plans. (holding my own tongue for now)


To each their own. At least she is honest about her intentions. If a chick is so brazzen and willing to admit as much, she better be bringing something to the table.


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## Anubis

Trenton said:


> Anubis your limited experience clouds your perspective. Mine is very different. I wonder how different your xwife's perception of you is.


All of us have our own unique experiences, and they do shape our world. That said, I did put the "Emotionally scarring backstory" warning label on it. 



Trenton said:


> My whole point is...it's not just about your perception and your experience. I respect the experience you had and think if your xwife is as you described...you should have ran far away, long ago. It is; however, not the only picture taken between SAHM & Sole Breadwinner.


I never said it was the only picture, and I'll be the *first* to say that my experience re: marriage and money is probably a standard deviation from the norm. If I made it sound like so, then let me clarify that right now. I've seen a lot of people do it much better, and it's really my fault for marrying her in the first place. 

As to what my ex's perception of me is, let me just say that as we were divorcing she repeatedly told me that "she NEVER respected me during the marriage" (her words exactly, I even have it recorded), she had insisted on an "open marriage" (as in open for her only. Want a copy of her BDSM/Kink/Poly journal? It's long...) since she couldn't keep her affairs hidden, she had froze me out in the intimacy dept which turned out to be a good thing (she tells everyone that I gave her the STD she now has, which not only did I never get exposed to, but I spoken with the person who admits giving it to her), and during the whole time during and after the divorce, she "begged me not to go through with it/She never wanted a divorce" (her words, have multiple recording of that). Interesting juxtaposition, no? Several people who knew her/us tell me that 'she's crazy' (wish they spoke up a lot sooner). 

That said, I really do appreciate what a SAHM does, and how the job can be demanding. Also a SAHD, as I put in a huge amount of hours tending to the kids and home, to the detriment of sleep and health. Again, my situation was a f***ed up one. Not getting the heck out of it much earlier is my biggest regret in life, and I have NO ONE to blame but myself.

As for my fiance's take on things, remember that it's her first (corporate) job ever, and it's a very technical and complex one in a high stress environment. That's a huge change from what she's experienced prior (academia & SAHM) ans note that she was reflecting on what was _different and unexpected_ to her, not judging it as better or worse.


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## AFEH

I reckon for every one unappreciated SAHM there are 100s of unappreciated working husbands and fathers putting the bread on the table, the roof over the heads and providing all the bells and whistles :rofl:


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## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Anubis your limited experience clouds your perspective. Mine is very different. I wonder how different your xwife's perception of you is.
> 
> I've just started back to work after 8 years at home. I think it is far easier even with deadlines, workloads and whatnot. I do bring my work home more often than not because I am doing a job that I fully enjoy...but it's not expected and it is always appreciated.
> 
> My meager paycheck is still a paycheck and I recognize that with my hard work and dedication and relationship building...my paycheck can go nowhere but up. My outlook is 100% positive and it seems like pure easiness.
> 
> In other words, I'm in full control of my career and my success depends on me. It is in a straight line 100% rewarding, whereas parenthood was up and down, up and down and I never knew if I was getting it right. I didn't have any training and there was no clear and set way of doing things put in place.
> 
> I was well aware, however, that the world valued my SAHM status as less than my husband's at work earning a living for his family status. I was also very much aware of how I received judgments about my job as a SAHM from people who had no idea what was going on but were always overwhelmingly willing to offer their advice. It was tough.
> 
> I don't regret it. I love my children and I value that my husband took on the breadwinning role. I've no doubt it was challenging too, especially the amount of responsibility that came with it.
> 
> Since getting back to work, the level of happiness in our marriage has skyrocketed on my part and I think possibly declined from his perspective. He's having trouble adjusting to me sometimes working 12 hour days or having to work with me to juggle household/pick up kid duties but he's getting there.
> 
> He doesn't like not coming home to my undivided attention & well thought out dinners where the boredom of park playing, laundry folding and play dates had me desperate for human interaction from him. Now we have to share our time and listen to one another because I have things I want to share/get advice on/etc. We eat a lot more take out on days I don't get the slow cooker going or had time to go to the food store.
> 
> My whole point is...it's not just about your perception and your experience. I respect the experience you had and think if your xwife is as you described...you should have ran far away, long ago. It is; however, not the only picture taken between SAHM & Sole Breadwinner.


So you’ve walked up a hill and reckon you have the experience and knowledge of a person who’s climbed Mount Everest. Amazing.

I hope your H doesn’t read this. Not only does it demonstrate that you have absolutely no idea what it’s like to be the breadwinner, it actually trivialises what the breadwinner does. There can be no greater lack of appreciation for your husband than actually trivialising and belittling what he brings to the table.


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> So you’ve walked up a hill and reckon you have the experience and knowledge of a person who’s climbed Mount Everest. Amazing.
> 
> I hope your H doesn’t read this. Not only does it demonstrate that you have absolutely no idea what it’s like to be the breadwinner, it actually trivialises what the breadwinner does. There can be no greater lack of appreciation for your husband than actually trivialising and belittling what he brings to the table.


She didn't trivialize anything. She stated that for HER going to work is easier than being a SAHM and she has been working full time for a while now. It's her experience and her truth. Why are you attacking her for her feelings? I too was a SAHM for years and went back to work 14 years ago. I will without any hesitation state that for me, working full time out of the house is far easier than being a SAHM. Does that trivialize what sole bread winners do? No.


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## Halien

Trenton said:


> My whole point is...it's not just about your perception and your experience. I respect the experience you had and think if your xwife is as you described...you should have ran far away, long ago. It is; however, not the only picture taken between SAHM & Sole Breadwinner.


You're right, Trenton. It is more of a universal theme. Regardless of our role, sometimes, a partner will not respect the blood, sweat and tears part of it. SAHM's never get a retirement, and don't get to punch out of the clock when there are kids home. My wife doesn't know how it feels to control a billion dollars of spend, and she took a little time to understand how unfair it felt that she plans to retire early, while I work for 20 more years. I bet some physician's spouses don't fully appreciate that their career has to be treated like a life calling, because personal time is often no longer a factor for them.

For me, growing up in unhappy circumstances, showing my wife appreciation was usually on the top of my mind. I think this was the only reason that it hurt keenly when she dismissed the pride I take in trying to keep her from experiencing the poverty I did as a kid, and the fact that I was trying to make her a priority, too.

The great part of it all was that my wife took our own situation to heart. After realizing that it was unfair to just naturally expect a woman to retire earlier, we turned it into a real plan that made us both happy.


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## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Bob. the only thing your post demonstrates is that you don't know anything about me and that you don't really like me. I'm OK with that.


Your H is a workaholic for a reason. He may well fear failure. Failure to pay the mortgage, the bills or failure at work in his career and that could be what drives him so hard.



But there’s something else. He may well feel more appreciated at work than he does at home. There may well be people in his work place who are showing him more appreciation than you are in his home. In that he feels wanted more at work than he does at home. And that could very well be why he prefers to stay at work when he can, when he could in fact be home.



Now you’ve changed the dynamics of your relationship. You have put more on his shoulders and I think he will feel even more unappreciated by you because of it.


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## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Ironically, he works less now. A simple 40-45 hours a week consistently. Our relationship has gotten better in bounds over the past six months or so with some bleeps on the way. Maybe because I have stepped back from controlling everything at home and with the kids which has given him a chance to take part. He's been more reliable and responsible than I ever thought possible. I think mainly because he doesn't feel so alone in his pressures, has more say in what happens and we can talk and communicate on a different level.
> 
> I'm willing to take the blame where it is reasonable. Certainly I am controlling and that is very difficult for my husband.
> 
> He gets an email at work that he doesn't like and he emails it to me and asks my advice on how he should respond. That happened yesterday and he called me at work to make sure I got it and we had a lunch date via phone chatting up the different ways he could respond and airing the injustice of the email. I thought this was so sweet and it made me feel good. I do the same for him and ask his advice regularly. We have begun to share our plans and hopes for the future. We have very different strengths that compliment one another in the right circumstances but can be a nightmare in the wrong ones. I would like to work on the later.
> 
> We chose to invest in him working full time and me staying home because he was more comfortable in that role, not because I couldn't take it on or was unwilling to. That was *our *choice a long time ago when our middle child was very sick. It created stress for both of us and for different reasons.
> 
> I'm not going to pretend that I don't love my job or that I think it is harder than staying at home. I didn't sit on my butt while I was a SAHM, I ran a non-profit that allowed for me to include the kids in everything I did. We did amazing things as a family during those five years. It made it so I am qualified and have the connections to do the work I love now and I won't apologize for it. My husband would never ask me to or want me to. Again, I'm grateful for that.
> 
> I recently got an offer for a state job in my field where you would normally need a degree but they were willing to comp my experience in lieu of degree. I was flattered and it made a decent salary as well as great benefits but I am turning it down because I made a commitment to a year of service that doesn't end till August (yes, I only get paid a meager stipend). After that year, I don't know what I'll do but I know my husband will be supportive of it just as we're talking about his future and desires and I will be supportive of it.
> 
> Right now we are ridiculously in sync. I hope we can stay there. We're getting over the whole "My job is harder than yours! You don't understand me!" bull****. So your post is poorly timed. *If you had wanted to zap me while I was down you should have done so months ago. *


Not my style, not at all. I’d certainly say you are seriously deluded if you believe me capable of such a thing.


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## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> She didn't trivialize anything. She stated that for HER going to work is easier than being a SAHM and she has been working full time for a while now. It's her experience and her truth. Why are you attacking her for her feelings? I too was a SAHM for years and went back to work 14 years ago. I will without any hesitation state that for me, working full time out of the house is far easier than being a SAHM. Does that trivialize what sole bread winners do? No.


Of course going to “work” is easier for Trenton than being a SAHM. Of course it is. She’s made her “work” sound like it’s not going to work at all but rather getting paid for something she seriously enjoys doing, like golf, painting or something. And she’s doing it for 12 hours a day. So she’s become what she didn’t like about her H!

And that’s what I take objection to. Talking about that sort of work within the context of a SAHM and a breadwinning husband. There just is no comparison and to compare the two shows a complete misunderstanding of what being the breadwinner is all about.

Trenton’s husband is the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs. And he does it every single month of every single year. Got a 25 year mortgage? He’ll have made a personal commitment to ensure it’s paid. Every single month. That’s 300 payments. Miss one payment no big deal but try and recover from it. Miss three payments, very big deal. Family growing want a bigger house? Extend the mortgage and repeat.

Trenton and yourself and maybe some others can talk about the pin money, enjoyable work that she does within the context of the work the breadwinner does but personally I think you do the breadwinner a great disservice. It is the very opposite of appreciation. And that’s typically the food that the breadwinner lives off as far as his wife and children are concerned.


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## AFEH

So your "work" is even easier for you.


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> Of course going to “work” is easier for Trenton than being a SAHM. Of course it is. She’s made her “work” sound like it’s not going to work at all but rather getting paid for something she seriously enjoys doing, like golf, painting or something. And she’s doing it for 12 hours a day. So she’s become what she didn’t like about her H!
> 
> And that’s what I take objection to. Talking about that sort of work within the context of a SAHM and a breadwinning husband. There just is no comparison and to compare the two shows a complete misunderstanding of what being the breadwinner is all about.
> 
> Trenton’s husband is the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs. And he does it every single month of every single year. Got a 25 year mortgage? He’ll have made a personal commitment to ensure it’s paid. Every single month. That’s 300 payments. Miss one payment no big deal but try and recover from it. Miss three payments, very big deal. Family growing want a bigger house? Extend the mortgage and repeat.
> 
> Trenton and yourself and maybe some others can talk about the pin money, enjoyable work that she does within the context of the work the breadwinner does but personally I think you do the breadwinner a great disservice. It is the very opposite of appreciation. And that’s typically the food that the breadwinner lives off as far as his wife and children are concerned.


So because she happens to enjoy what she does for a living, that means it isn't work? I have a surgeon friend who loves what he does for a living but trust me, it's work.
Trenton works at a non-profit organization helping poor children. Some of the things she encounters are heart wrenching and the mental and emotional toll it takes on a human being is incredible. Why does she love her work then? Because she views what she does as making a difference. In your view however, she is supposed to hate getting up in the morning and if she doesn't.....she isn't working.
I happen to hate what I do for a living and my husband loves what he does. We both get up at the same time and come home nearly at the same time. I guess I am the only one working.


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## Therealbrighteyes

He made a personal commitment to make sure the mortgage is paid? Wrong. THEY made a personal commitment to make sure the mortgage is paid. Pretty sure Trenton's name is on the loan documents. She's on the hook for it just as much as he is. 
You are under some delusion that people who work outside the home should be rewarded in some way. Adults get up every morning and go to work. That's what we do. I don't expect a pat on the head and a cookie from my husband because I get up and hit the road, neither does he. Those that don't work outside the home get up and work full time inside the home. Child rearing, cooking, cleaning, errands, homework, laundry, etc. 
Saying that the bread winner should be somehow lauded is like saying we should hand out ribbons to people who haven't gone to jail. You aren't supposed to go to jail and it doesn't make you special if you haven't. As an adult, my responsibility is to provide for my family. For 6 years that meant taking care of all home and child needs, 24 hours a day. For 12 years now, it has meant get up at 5:30, get ready and go to work. I don't expect anything. It's what adults do. If I didn't want to act like one, I shouldn't have married and had children.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Both should be lauded for the different roles they play. I think that was my main point and I'm sticking to it. If you have a hard nosed point of view that favors either side, you're opening up your relationship to resentments and it won't serve the relationship except to destroy it. Like anything else, it's a choice. You're either in it and decide you both love one another to work on it or you decide your boundaries have been crossed, your pov is set and you get out.
> 
> I've learned life is rarely fair. It's better to be grateful for what we have and work within it then always complain about what we have and do nothing to change it.
> 
> The women in the OP wants a man with money. So be it. Who cares? I wish her nothing but happiness and hope she finds the man who makes her happy and makes him happy. We create our own misery and we create our own happiness.


Exactly, Trenton. Now here's your cookie.


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## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> He made a personal commitment to make sure the mortgage is paid? Wrong. THEY made a personal commitment to make sure the mortgage is paid. Pretty sure Trenton's name is on the loan documents. She's on the hook for it just as much as he is.
> You are under some delusion that people who work outside the home should be rewarded in some way. Adults get up every morning and go to work. That's what we do. I don't expect a pat on the head and a cookie from my husband because I get up and hit the road, neither does he. Those that don't work outside the home get up and work full time inside the home. Child rearing, cooking, cleaning, errands, homework, laundry, etc.
> Saying that the bread winner should be somehow lauded is like saying we should hand out ribbons to people who haven't gone to jail. You aren't supposed to go to jail and it doesn't make you special if you haven't. As an adult, my responsibility is to provide for my family. For 6 years that meant taking care of all home and child needs, 24 hours a day. For 12 years now, it has meant get up at 5:30, get ready and go to work. I don't expect anything. It's what adults do. If I didn't want to act like one, I shouldn't have married and had children.


Of course the stay at home mother/father and the breadwinner should be lauded. And most especially in a public context. And most especially in public by their spouse. I thought everybody knew that.


I hope you get it one day. Before it’s way too late and there’s no going back.

It’s called appreciation. You know one of the five languages of Love. Appreciation is very simple but so often lacking in marriages when husbands and wives are taken for granted. Eventually they either walk or run away.


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## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Both should be lauded for the different roles they play. I think that was my main point and I'm sticking to it. If you have a hard nosed point of view that favors either side, you're opening up your relationship to resentments and it won't serve the relationship except to destroy it. Like anything else, it's a choice. You're either in it and decide you both love one another to work on it or you decide your boundaries have been crossed, your pov is set and you get out.
> 
> I've learned life is rarely fair. It's better to be grateful for what we have and work within it then always complain about what we have and do nothing to change it.
> 
> The women in the OP wants a man with money. So be it. Who cares? I wish her nothing but happiness and hope she finds the man who makes her happy and makes him happy. We create our own misery and we create our own happiness.


You've come so far Trenton. Well done.


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> Of course the stay at home mother/father and the breadwinner should be lauded. And most especially in a public context. And most especially in public by their spouse. I thought everybody knew that.
> 
> 
> I hope you get it one day. Before it’s way too late and there’s no going back.
> 
> It’s called appreciation. You know one of the five languages of Love. Appreciation is very simple but so often lacking in marriages when husbands and wives are taken for granted. Eventually they either walk or run away.


I appreciate everything my husband does that isn't part of what every adult does. Going to work is not one of them. Him bringing me my favorite flower, the sunflower, is met with a huge smile and an almost childlike squeal. It makes my day....any day! It is those gestures that I appreciate. He happens to love cufflinks. I will often times spend my lunch hour at an antique store shopping for a pair of cufflinks that has history behind it....he's also a history buff. That is met with an enormous smile and also an almost childlike response. Think A Christmas Story and the Red Rider. He beams for days!
We appreciate each other for the things we do for one another that ISN'T expected. Going to work IS expected, showing appreciation just because is not.


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## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I appreciate everything my husband does that isn't part of what every adult does. Going to work is not one of them. Him bringing me my favorite flower, the sunflower, is met with a huge smile and an almost childlike squeal. It makes my day....any day! It is those gestures that I appreciate. He happens to love cufflinks. I will often times spend my lunch hour at an antique store shopping for a pair of cufflinks that has history behind it....he's also a history buff. That is met with an enormous smile and also an almost childlike response. Think A Christmas Story and the Red Rider. He beams for days!
> We appreciate each other for the things we do for one another that ISN'T expected. Going to work IS expected, showing appreciation just because is not.


Nope. You ain't got it.


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## Therealbrighteyes

For someone who complains about the state of England so much and the unemployment rate, etc., I find it remarkable that you think having a job makes a person special. You wax on and on about lazy people in England (usually women) and yet now act as if being employed makes a person special. You have said time and again that these women need to get off their butts and get a job. Do you routinely show up at their houses when they do with a brass statue? Neither do I. 
I guess being employed or "breadwinner" as you put it should only be lauded if the person has a penis. If they don't....they are just doing what society expects. 
Having a job doesn't make anybody special. Providing for a family doesn't either. It is what is EXPECTED of an adult. 
I am glad that my husband doesn't have an ego so fragile that I need to congratulate him for waking up in the morning and going to work. I am glad that my ego isn't so fragile that I need to get warm fuzzies from him that I am so amazing because I work full time.


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## Enchantment

It's always interesting to see what direction some threads can go when you haven't kept up on them. 

Since my 'love language' is words of affirmation, I will say that it does indeed give me the warm fuzzies when my H expresses appreciation for the mundane, everyday things.

He doesn't need to express this all the time, but when it's done at unexpected times - like when I come home from a day at work completely frazzled, having a cranky kid clinging to me, having to get dinner on, and have him grab hold of me in his arms, touch my face, and say "baby, I appreciate everything you do to make our lives easier and better, and especially today when you had such a difficult day..." Well...you know what happens after that. 

One reason it feels so wonderful is because it is so easy to take our spouses for granted - taking for granted the day to day things, yes, even the mundane things that we all have to do in our lives. Knowing you are not alone, knowing that you are seen, knowing that you are appreciated (and hence loved) and openly expressing that to our spouses can make all the difference in their world, and in turn our own.

Mother Theresa once said "There is more hunger for love and appreciation in this world than for bread."

I say make sure you feed your spouse then.


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## SimplyAmorous

Enchantment just expressed everything I also wanted to say..... she said it all so much better, yes even these little things . I was also thinking along the lines of "Words of Affirmation"....after all that is what it is. 

Personally I feel it is a good thing to appreciate all the wonderful things are spouses ARE and DO, even those "expected" things, how can this hurt a marriage ..... to warmly acknowledge what the other brings, how they enhance our lives , our children's lives by all that they do (at least from time to time ), that if they would be taken from us, we would experience hardship, we greatly appreicate their role , how hard they work for us, we'd be lost without them. 

That would be like the husband never feeling the need to compliment his wifes efforts to prepare his favorite meal (cause it is expected -so why should he)..... or the wife to never tell her husband she appreciates how he works so hard ... mine goes out in the freezing temperatures, puts up with a boss that has had to go to Anger Management twice in the past 5 yrs, his days aren't always so easy, but he puts up with the craziness and manages to come home a smile on his face.....I do so appreciate his attitude, what he sometimes has to put up with, even though that is just his job. 

I do not look at these things as "ego stroking" ....it is a feeling you have deep within that you are thankful for your spouse, how what they do enhances your life -that each is performing a very important role in the marraige, that we need each other and we desire to express that - from time to time. ....... I guess I wouldn't understand who wouldn't want that ? I think had we all had that in our marraiges, given freely and willingly , that we would FEEL more valued in our roles, even enjoy them more ... 

There was as time on my husbands job, he had it really hard, one of his co-workers was riding him -well everyone, he was near ready to leave that job, my soothing him , telling him what a fine worker he is & he will get through this--it helped him go back there every day & stand up to that co-worker, he got some "strength" from me even.... and the way he treats me - praises me for all I do -in preparation before he gets home, to save him work, I am absolutely sure this is why I feel valued as a SAHM, cause I know society doesn't always see it that way. I apprecaite his appreciation ....


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

SA,
AFEH said that Trenton doesn't appreciate her husband nor could she ever understand what it is like to be the breadwinner. He then went on to trivialize her contribution to the marriage saying her job was leisurely like golf or painting. He made a vast assumption that because she loves what she does, it must be easy.
Read closely what Trenton wrote. Not only does she work a full time job, she also does the lion's share of everything else. Meals, grocery shopping, etc.
Should Trenton wake up everyday and kiss the stars that her husband gets up every day to go to work? Should he do the same for her or should both recognize that that is life. People work. I am not talking about support. My husband comes home often and has stress, anxiety, etc. You bet I listen to him and offer advice. He does the same for me. We don't however think each other are heroes because we do what humans have done since the dawn of time. Apparently this is a monumental achievement to some.


----------



## that_girl

I was a breadwinner for 7 years. Well, I was a single mom 

I married Hubs because he was financial stable...well, one off the reasons....but I brought and bring my share to the table 

I married for his big ......heart.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

that_girl said:


> I was a breadwinner for 7 years. Well, I was a single mom
> 
> I married Hubs because he was financial stable...well, one off the reasons....but I brought and bring my share to the table
> 
> I married for his big ......heart.


Exactly and did you expect a ticker tape parade because you provided for your child for 7 years or was that what ADULTS do? Do you expect a red carpet because you teach everyday or do you see it as part of what an adult does....contributes? If you weren't teaching, would you sit on your ass doing nothing or would you work full time in your home contributing? Would you expect a medal because you did?


----------



## that_girl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Exactly and did you expect a ticker tape parade because you provided for your child for 7 years or was that what ADULTS do? Do you expect a red carpet because you teach everyday or do you see it as part of what an adult does....contributes? If you weren't teaching, would you sit on your ass doing nothing or would you work full time in your home contributing? Would you expect a medal because you did?


LOL God no. It's just what I did because I was grown and no one was paying my way. I wasn't going to live at home because my mother would have sent me to the Funny Farm :rofl:

Before my daughter, I lived alone as well....because I was grown. LOL No medal needed. My privacy and freedom was enough!! 

I go to work every day because I like it and I have to. There's really no choice. Hubs works everyday because he has to. So what. We work. Woot! That's what grown people do. 

But if I didn't have to teach, I'd paint murals. I used to do that in my spare time and make thousands  But, the economy is not good enough for people to buy murals.

Although, a red carpet would be nice. 

And Hubs works 12 hour days. That's a long day for what he does...and it's been a bad few months. So...I make sure to have his drink ready when he gets home, dinner on the table, and a big kiss and a grope when he walks in the door.

That's his red carpet.


----------



## EleGirl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> They were unable to have children. When they were in their 20's people just figured it was them waiting. In their 30's they started thinking about kids but yeah, no.....they really were too self absorbed to ever care about kids. At the age of 40 and 41 they adopted my twin and I. Love? Hardly. They just got sick of hearing "What is wrong with you" and this solved it all. I barely saw my parents.
> No bio kids at all. We were it and yet they hated us and I hated them equally. Both dead now and I didn't go to either of their funerals.
> I did however grow up in a life of luxury. Truly if money means everything. I do NOT value money above all else. I value love above all else.


It's sad to hear how they treated you and your twin. It hits near home for me as we adopted our son when I was 40. He was 10 days old when we brought him home. I have not been a perfect mother, nor my ex a perfect father.. there is no such thing. But we love him. I hope we have not hurt him in any way as you seem to have been. You story makes me want to cry for pain that you were needlessly brought into.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Therealbrighteyes said:


> SA,
> AFEH said that Trenton doesn't appreciate her husband nor could she ever understand what it is like to be the breadwinner. He then went on to trivialize her contribution to the marriage saying her job was leisurely like golf or painting. He made a vast assumption that because she loves what she does, it must be easy.


Personally, I didn't see anything wrong with what she said at all....I drew a blank ??.... so yeah, I didn't quite get that part. All I know is when I was writing my thoughts on all of this, Enchantment said what I was thinking , along the same lines.

For whatever that is worth. Go back to the debate, maybe it will become more clear - to what he was really trying to say , I am obviousy missing something .


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

that_girl said:


> LOL God no. It's just what I did because I was grown and no one was paying my way. I wasn't going to live at home because my mother would have sent me to the Funny Farm :rofl:
> 
> Before my daughter, I lived alone as well....because I was grown. LOL No medal needed. My privacy and freedom was enough!!
> 
> I go to work every day because I like it and I have to. There's really no choice. Hubs works everyday because he has to. So what. We work. Woot! That's what grown people do.
> 
> But if I didn't have to teach, I'd paint murals. I used to do that in my spare time and make thousands  But, the economy is not good enough for people to buy murals.
> 
> Although, a red carpet would be nice.
> 
> And Hubs works 12 hour days. That's a long day for what he does...and it's been a bad few months. So...I make sure to have his drink ready when he gets home, dinner on the table, and a big kiss and a grope when he walks in the door.
> 
> That's his red carpet.


Exactly! I cannot even tell you during my husband's last job when he would come home looking defeated. I knew it, I could see it and the tension was there. I made a special point to prop him up if you will with gestures, care, food and love. I am not suggesting that we turn a blind eye to each other and employment woes. What I am saying is that everyday life IS going to work and that's what it is.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> It's sad to hear how they treated you and your twin. It hits near home for me as we adopted our son when I was 40. He was 10 days old when we brought him home. I have not been a perfect mother, nor my ex a perfect father.. there is no such thing. But we love him. I hope we have not hurt him in any way as you seem to have been. You story makes me want to cry for pain that you were needlessly brought into.


No crying on my watch! Through the horrible childhood I came out strong. I have two children who are the world to me. They are remarkable and amazing sons who every day make me prouder to be their mother. I too have not been a perfect mother....not even close. The difference between my childhood and that of our sons is that they are loved, not viewed as some commodity and not treated terribly. 
Your son will turn out fine. Not a damn doubt in my mind. With loving parents like you two, your son will turn out well adjusted . Just don't smother him too much, okay?  LOVE that you adopted. Just love it!! Rock on woman, you just rock!!!!!


----------



## EleGirl

AFEH said:


> So your "work" is even easier for you.


Why are you minimizing the work that Trenton is doing? She is working. While it's not well paid at this time she is getting valuable experience that will no doubt help her get a better paid job down the road. She's already been offered a position with state because of what she is doing now. This is how a person moves from being a SAHM to having a career that pays are good salary.

SAHM's cannot usually just go out and walk into well paid positions after not working for years. Trenton had the forsight to do meaningful non profit work while a SAHM so that she can move into the work force more easily.

Her work is not play. She just has to work her way up the earning scale now.


----------



## EleGirl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No crying on my watch! Through the horrible childhood I came out strong. I have two children who are the world to me. They are remarkable and amazing boys who every day make me prouder to be their mother. I too have not been a perfect mother....not even close. The difference between my childhood and that of our sons is that they are loved, not viewed as some commodity and not treated terribly.
> Your son will turn out fine. Not a damn doubt in my mind. With loving parents like you two, your son will turn out well adjsuted . Just don't smother him too much, okay?  LOVE that you adopted. Just love it!! Rock on woman, you just rock!!!!!


Oh, out son has turned out well. He's 22 and working on a degree in physics and engineering... with a 3.9 GPA. He's a tall, gorgious, loving, caring young man. He's almost a senior now... and is applying for research positions to move towards his masters. He still lives at home to save us the cost of living on his own right now. So I still get to spend some time with him every day. I loved college. And now I love to see him loving it. I am blessed.


----------



## EleGirl

that_girl said:


> LOL God no. It's just what I did because I was grown and no one was paying my way. I wasn't going to live at home because my mother would have sent me to the Funny Farm :rofl:
> 
> Before my daughter, I lived alone as well....because I was grown. LOL No medal needed. My privacy and freedom was enough!!
> 
> I go to work every day because I like it and I have to. There's really no choice. Hubs works everyday because he has to. So what. We work. Woot! That's what grown people do.
> 
> *But if I didn't have to teach, I'd paint murals. I used to do that in my spare time and make thousands  But, the economy is not good enough for people to buy murals.*
> Although, a red carpet would be nice.
> 
> And Hubs works 12 hour days. That's a long day for what he does...and it's been a bad few months. So...I make sure to have his drink ready when he gets home, dinner on the table, and a big kiss and a grope when he walks in the door.
> 
> That's his red carpet.


I need for you to talk to my husband and teach him that this is what he needs to do. :smthumbup:


----------



## EleGirl

I could be wrong, but I think that the point that AFEH is trying to make is that there are pressues on the breadwinner that the non-breadwinner does not have.

A breadwinnder makes choices based on the family finances and they are not always what the breadwinner wants to do. They will stay in a job that they are really do not want to do, they will work longer hours that they do not want to work, they put up with crap at work that they should not really put up with for their own mental and physical health because they know that if they don't do this their entire family will suffer.

In a marriage where both spouses work and contriubute near equally, neither has this pressure.

But in a marriage where one spouse shoulders all, or most, of the burden of the family financial burden there is a special kind of pressure that the breadwinner is under that the other spouse does not experience.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> Oh, out son has turned out well. He's 22 and working on a degree in physics and engineering... with a 3.9 GPA. He's a tall, gorgious, loving, caring young man. He's almost a senior now... and is applying for research positions to move towards his masters. He still lives at home to save us the cost of living on his own right now. So I still get to spend some time with him every day. I loved college. And now I love to see him loving it. I am blessed.


Wow!!! My son is majoring in Engineering but thinking about Physics as well. You worry that you left perma damage on Einstein/Viking son? Just an armchair analysis of your parenting ability but if you were lacking in love, your son wouldn't be as amazing as he is today. Take stock in that and yes, you are awesome.


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## SimplyAmorous

EleGirl said:


> I could be wrong, but I think that the point that AFEH is trying to make is that there are pressues on the breadwinner that the non-breadwinner does not have.
> 
> A breadwinnder makes choices based on the family finances and they are not always what the breadwinner wants to do. They will stay in a job that they are really do not want to do, they will work longer hours that they do not want to work, they put up with crap at work that they should not really put up with for their own mental and physical health because they know that if they don't do this their entire family will suffer.
> 
> In a marriage where both spouses work and contriubute near equally, neither has this pressure.
> 
> But in a marriage where one spouse shoulders all, or most, of the burden of the family financial burden there is a special kind of pressure that the breadwinner is under that the other spouse does not experience.


Makes perfect sense to me... you are probably right !! And this is why I will always feel what my husband does is way more worthy than what I do, he does feel more pressure, but he still wants me to stay home , tend to the kids, not be out working & driving on the bad roads, it IS his wish and I am happy cause I still love my role and I overwhelmingly support him in his.


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## Acorn

EleGirl said:


> I could be wrong, but I think that the point that AFEH is trying to make is that there are pressues on the breadwinner that the non-breadwinner does not have.
> 
> But in a marriage where one spouse shoulders all, or most, of the burden of the family financial burden there is a special kind of pressure that the breadwinner is under that the other spouse does not experience.


This is what I got out of it too.

If you have the luxury of being free to make choices about being a SAHM, picking up a low paying but high satisfaction job, or just joining the workforce fully, that choice is likely being funded by a breadwinner who does not have those choices.


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## EleGirl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Wow!!! My son is majoring in Engineering but thinking about Physics as well. You worry that you left perma damage on Einstein/Viking son? Just an armchair analysis of your parenting ability but if you were lacking in love, your son wouldn't be as amazing as he is today. Take stock in that and yes, you are awesome.


The perma damage concerns come from the divorce with his father and then my remarriage to my current husband with his too very lost children. It has not been easy for any of us. But I love the Einstein/Viking things... that's him. I'll have to tell him about that.


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## that_girl

I have to work.

No choice.


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## EleGirl

Trenton said:


> I didn't feel that being a SAHM was a choice for me if I be honest here. For me, it was what I thought we had to do to raise kind, healthy kids to be the same as adults. I was working full time and left my job after a week in the hospital with my son and the third visit in a month. It was a conscientious choice my husband and I took together and for both it meant different sacrifices and responsibilities. They are just very different from one another. We absolutely struggled far more than we would have had I continued working.
> 
> Bob could have made his point without jumping to so many conclusions or telling me about my life without asking. Simple.


I agree with you. Your contribution to the raising of your children and the care of your husband is as valuable as his contribution as breadwinner. 

Without him as breadwinner you could not have done what you did. Without you at home taking care of children and everything else your husband would have had a lot more strain as the breadwinner.

This is what a good marriage is about, it's a partnership. You are a team and each team member takes their part of the work and does it responsibly.. and in a marriage with love.


I have almost always been the bread winner.. almost always with a husband who did not help out at all in any way.

From my experience, not having a spouse that is a reliable team member is an awful thing to experience. The pressure of literally having to do it all is very hard.


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## AFEH

Enchantment said:


> It's always interesting to see what direction some threads can go when you haven't kept up on them.
> 
> Since my 'love language' is words of affirmation, I will say that it does indeed give me the warm fuzzies when my H expresses appreciation for the mundane, everyday things.
> 
> He doesn't need to express this all the time, but when it's done at unexpected times - like when I come home from a day at work completely frazzled, having a cranky kid clinging to me, having to get dinner on, and have him grab hold of me in his arms, touch my face, and say "baby, I appreciate everything you do to make our lives easier and better, and especially today when you had such a difficult day..." Well...you know what happens after that.
> 
> One reason it feels so wonderful is because it is so easy to take our spouses for granted - taking for granted the day to day things, yes, even the mundane things that we all have to do in our lives. Knowing you are not alone, knowing that you are seen, knowing that you are appreciated (and hence loved) and openly expressing that to our spouses can make all the difference in their world, and in turn our own.
> 
> Mother Theresa once said "There is more hunger for love and appreciation in this world than for bread."
> 
> I say make sure you feed your spouse then.


I did that Love Language test the other week. I came out high on “Words of Affirmation” and “Physical Touch”. My wife would have been “Acts of Service” and “Receiving Gifts”.

We were the typical in love with each other but often not actually feeling loved. I believe this happens a lot and I feel it’s very sad that it happens. I believe it happens because opposites do attract one another. 

I am though truly surprised that someone like TRBE who has been on TAM for so very long and has made so many posts does not know these things.

To have a happy, healthy and long lasting marriage the spouses really do need to learn their partner's love languages. But some spouses do actually trivialise and belittle their partner’s language of love. I like to think it's done out of total ignorance and that it's not at all deliberate and calculating.


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## AFEH

EleGirl said:


> I could be wrong, but I think that the point that AFEH is trying to make is that there are pressues on the breadwinner that the non-breadwinner does not have.
> 
> A breadwinnder makes choices based on the family finances and they are not always what the breadwinner wants to do. They will stay in a job that they are really do not want to do, they will work longer hours that they do not want to work, they put up with crap at work that they should not really put up with for their own mental and physical health because they know that if they don't do this their entire family will suffer.
> 
> In a marriage where both spouses work and contriubute near equally, neither has this pressure.
> 
> But in a marriage where one spouse shoulders all, or most, of the burden of the family financial burden there is a special kind of pressure that the breadwinner is under that the other spouse does not experience.


Absolutely.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> Makes perfect sense to me... you are probably right !! And this is why I will always feel what my husband does is way more worthy than what I do, he does feel more pressure, but he still wants me to stay home , tend to the kids, not be out working & driving on the bad roads, it IS his wish and I am happy cause I still love my role and I overwhelmingly support him in his.


I guess you know I like and really appreciate your posts. Of coarse you do right? Within that context I caution you not to think of your good self as less worthy than your husband. Not only for your own sake but for your husband’s sake as well.

You both bring things to the table which although exceptionally different are just as valuable as each other.

It is a wise couple that know and demonstrate their appreciation of the values they bring to the marriage table. In long term marriages especially these are things to be rejoiced and celebrated on a regular basis but are so often swamped in ingratitude, ignorance and resentment and then lost forever.


----------



## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> For someone who complains about the state of England so much and the unemployment rate, etc., I find it remarkable that you think having a job makes a person special. You wax on and on about lazy people in England (usually women) and yet now act as if being employed makes a person special. You have said time and again that these women need to get off their butts and get a job. Do you routinely show up at their houses when they do with a brass statue? Neither do I.
> I guess being employed or "breadwinner" as you put it should only be lauded if the person has a penis. If they don't....they are just doing what society expects.
> Having a job doesn't make anybody special. Providing for a family doesn't either. It is what is EXPECTED of an adult.
> I am glad that my husband doesn't have an ego so fragile that I need to congratulate him for waking up in the morning and going to work. I am glad that my ego isn't so fragile that I need to get warm fuzzies from him that I am so amazing because I work full time.


:sleeping:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> I guess you know I like and really appreciate your posts. Of coarse you do right? Within that context I caution you not to think of your good self as less worthy than your husband. Not only for your own sake but for your husband’s sake as well.


 It is not that I de-value myself , I guess I didn't word that very well . I may question how others view SAHM's because of the slow death of traditional families , but never my husband... he brags on me... Never himself though... My husband would never talk himself UP, he has never been like that. Me, oh yeah, I can do that, I need to shut my mouth sometimes ! I have a bigger ego than him really! He has given it to me, ha ha. 

Just if I had to "compare" is all .... I do feel he does WAYYYYY more than me.... I would NEVER want to trade places with my husband.... he takes on some humdinger projects to save our family $$ & works very hard, deals with some idiots at work. 

I am THRILLED to be the wife, the mother, the woman .....even though there is no time clock (I've noticed this mentioined alot by SAH Mom's).......even when it means getting up in the wee hours of the night with fevers, bottles, diaper changings, nightmares & throwing up on carpets (this seems to happen regularly at our house!).... I never bother my husband for these things - I want him to get his sleep. 

I feel some of my "attitude" comes from suffering infertility, when something you want sooo deeply can not be acheived , it changes you - something wells up inside of you ......if there was any blessing that came out of that depressing experience, it was how overwhelmingly *Thankful* I was when those babies started coming..... 

So when I am tempted to scream when I sit on another peed tiolet seat ...instead I smile -that I have that sweet little boy - and to not loose control when they are fighting with their siblings (because they have siblings!)......just imagining how quiet & uneventful our house would be without them in it......even with the chaos, I count it all *JOY* somehow.......it just isn't work -for me. 

But his job....yeah...it's real WORK, dirty WORK, it's alot more pressure.... if he is neglectful on his job, it could cost others their lives & his job. I would not want that pressure on me. I am very careful to do eveything I can at home - to make his life easy & carefree when he walks through that door every day... that IS my role, I am thankful for it, I see it as a "Gift" even. 

He is very THANKFUL for his job (He knows what it is like to make peanuts).... so many of those guys at his work complain about this /about that, and he is thinking they are all A**-holes cause in our little town, it is one of the best blue collar jobs to be had. Some men would kill to get in there....and yet they whine. 

Enjoyment of your life, your job, your marraige, your kids ...all of it --really DOES start with realizing what you have, it is often alot more than others have. 

A little "appreciation" is very powerful for our "attitudes".


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> But his job....yeah...it's real WORK, dirty WORK, it's alot more pressure.... if he is neglectful on his job, it could cost others their lives & his job. I would not want that pressure on me. I am very careful to do eveything I can at home - to make his life easy & carefree when he walks through that door every day... that IS my role, I am thankful for it, I see it as a "Gift" even.


I'm not suggesting that what your husband does isn't alot more pressure than you have, as you have stated. But what I couldn't help but think was, that perhaps you don't view your role of having pressure because of your perception of it? If you were neglectful of your "job" then your children's lives/health and well-being would be at risk also. Perhaps just as he has pressure to ensure his colleagues are taken care of.

I think appreciation for what we each bring to the table is important. Even with small tasks at home. When he takes out the trash, I appreciate that. When I make the bed in the morning, he appreciate that ....we thank each other for these small things as well as the bigger things. I agree appreciation is important.

SA ~ I think both you and your husband are blessed.


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## AFEH

SimplyAmorous, so glad to hear you don’t under value yourself.

I think Appreciation can move mountains. The famous Dale Carnegie wrote about in his book published back in the 30s, it’s sold 15 million copies in many different languages and still sells today http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Frien...7346/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327281102&sr=8-1

_“He teaches these skills through underlying principles of dealing with people so that *they feel important and appreciated*”._ A life skill often missing in marriages?


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## applelemon

I think there is a certain tabu that is placed on women who want to "marry rich." Sure, many women who want to marry rich may be money hungry and shallow, but aside from those "typical" women, there are other women who use marrying rich as just one of the factors in finding someone.

I have a friend who is from a wealthy family. She is concerned that men will want to marry her for money, and that's why she wants to marry someone who is rich as well so she know he's not in it for the money. I don't really get it, maybe it's a rich thing


----------



## EleGirl

applelemon said:


> I think there is a certain tabu that is placed on women who want to "marry rich." Sure, many women who want to marry rich may be money hungry and shallow, but aside from those "typical" women, there are other women who use marrying rich as just one of the factors in finding someone.
> 
> I have a friend who is from a wealthy family. She is concerned that men will want to marry her for money, and that's why she wants to marry someone who is rich as well so she know he's not in it for the money. I don't really get it, maybe it's a rich thing


A lot of rich men do this as well. They are concerned about gold diggers so they look for a wife who will bring similar amount of assets into the marriage.


----------



## BigandTallSection

Anubis said:


> My fiance just sent this link to me:
> 
> Money Mic: Why I Want to Marry Rich
> 
> tl:dr = "I'm 23, Female and I want to marry a guy who makes 300K /yr and has $1Million in assets"
> 
> I'm just curious what the guys here think about her and her plans. (holding my own tongue for now)




Perhaps if she herself is an ambitious person she is simply looking for someone who has succeeded at least in the monetary sense, or perhaps she is looking for someone who exudes a sense of self confidence. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. 

It could be a joke, or she has not ever had a real relationship and truly loved. 

I guess the bigger question would be: Why is your fiance' sending you these links?:scratchhead:


----------



## sinnister

I hear what you're all saying. And the rational side of me wants to agree that yes, you can be rich and still have morals.

But my gut...my "soul" tells me that rich men are the most evil, vile, dispicable creatures on the planet. They are void of all decency and morality. They are revered for their bank accounts instead of their deeds and accomplishments.

Absolute power corrupting absolutely is a phrase I wholeheartedly believe in.


----------



## badcompany

Several good points made. 
Money may want to marry money. 
In the case of the OP's article, she better bring a lot to the table.
She may find herself basically being a high end hoar until things start to droop and then he'll give her the boot, just like these guys upgrade their cars and airplanes.


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## Holland

sinnister said:


> I hear what you're all saying. And the rational side of me wants to agree that yes, you can be rich and still have morals.
> 
> *But my gut...my "soul" tells me that rich men are the most evil, vile, dispicable creatures on the planet. They are void of all decency and morality. They are revered for their bank accounts instead of their deeds and accomplishments.
> *
> Absolute power corrupting absolutely is a phrase I wholeheartedly believe in.


How many truly wealthy men do you know? There are some seriously wealthy men in my life and ALL are wonderful men and very quietly philanthropic.


----------



## Wiserforit

Trenton said:


> this is a shout out to Bob who was long ago banned. There was some truth to what you were saying. I was unable to see it and I suppose you are unable to see the plight of the SAHM too because it'll never be a role you take on. Perhaps all roles are difficult. Either way, I read my old and out dated words and think I should slap myself. Sorry about that Bob, wishing you the best, wherever you are.


People should always be commended for reconsideration of their position and validating what someone else has to say. 

So congratulations. Now run along back into the kitchen and fix me dinner.


----------



## JCD

Anubis said:


> My fiance just sent this link to me:
> 
> Money Mic: Why I Want to Marry Rich
> 
> tl:dr = "I'm 23, Female and I want to marry a guy who makes 300K /yr and has $1Million in assets"
> 
> I'm just curious what the guys here think about her and her plans. (holding my own tongue for now)


Wow...

I give her credit for being honest. And I don't mind her sense of priorities. I seriously doubt she will marry a troll or a man who is abusive or smells badly.

What she doesn't write or address, and the part which I am curious about, is what she WILL give up. Because, as is obvious, unless she is all that and a bag of chips (many women feel that way...fewer actually make the cut...) she will be ceding at least a good portion of her 'power' to this man. She is, after all, a supplicant with a long line of applicants: a wealthy, well groomed man who is pleasant to be around.









Tsar Alexis Chooses his Bride.

Being turned on by red hair, big boobs, or an Italian accent is no more or less shallow than money...frankly, I'm sure the money will last longer than boobs will  Certainly it will last longer than her looks will. So why not see what the market will bear?

However...does she have a million dollar body? And what if the Captain of Industry decides for a lease option at first? She is a diminishing asset. She'd best sell while it's a sellers market.

----

One thing she wrote which DID stick in my craw.

She states she's an ardent feminist...but also wants to have the 'benefits' of being able to be a stay at home mommy while Hubby supplies all the good things in life.

This is the equivalent of me saying I am a traditionalist guy, who expects sex on demand and dinner when I get home...and I want her to pay her share of the bills too.


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## Hortensia

Haven't read all the thread so here's my take : marrying for money...another form of prostitution. A more discreet, masked one. You have sex every day with a man you don't love or even like...for the financial benefits given by living with him. 
I'd call it even worse than prostitution, because prostitutes are honest about the price and is known that there are no feelings involved. Such woman, that marries for money, pretends to love the husband, fakes pleasure in bed, only to bad mouth him and/ or laugh at him with friends, and waste his money on whims. Such woman would very likely cheat, if a man of her type, crosses her path. 
I have no respect for women who marry for interest. Call it "marriage", but it is selling yourself. And leading on an innocent person.

I for one, couldn't be with a man I don't love, no matter how much money he has. And if I do love him, and he does have money, well then I lucked out, but money would still not be the reason to marry him.
And this comes from someone who loves money very much. It is a very important matter in my life. But I don't do commerce with my body, my soul, and years of my life. Some things are not for sale.


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## JCD

Hortensia said:


> Haven't read all the thread so here's my take : marrying for money...another form of prostitution. A more discreet, masked one. You have sex every day with a man you don't love or even like...for the financial benefits given by living with him.
> I'd call it even worse than prostitution, because prostitutes are honest about the price and is known that there are no feelings involved. Such woman, that marries for money, pretends to love the husband, fakes pleasure in bed, only to bad mouth him and/ or laugh at him with friends, and waste his money on whims. Such woman would very likely cheat, if a man of her type, crosses her path.
> I have no respect for women who marry for interest. Call it "marriage", but it is selling yourself. And leading on an innocent person.
> 
> I for one, couldn't be with a man I don't love, no matter how much money he has. And if I do love him, and he does have money, well then I lucked out, but money would still not be the reason to marry him.
> And this comes from someone who loves money very much. It is a very important matter in my life. But I don't do commerce with my body, my soul, and years of my life. Some things are not for sale.


First, apologies. I did not realize how necro this thread was.

That being said, I think the woman wants love AND money. She is just setting her priorities to 'money' first and trying to find love in that rather small demographic.


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## whitehawk

l couldn't care less about it from her point of view , she deserves what she ends up with with that depth .

But the wealthy , males and females not just the guys , l found one after the other after the other , pretty revolting people to my mind, amazed non stop tbh.
l was into investing for a few years and l also grew up in a wealthy family.
But my dad was a tradesman so he was a worker that just did well in the business he built . But he remained that knock about worker person and would do anything for friends , down to earth. Totally different to typically wealthy people.

l got out of investing because the people l had to mix with were just that nothing !
Selfish , self centered , incredibly shallow, surprisingly dumb too like with other people and their almighty dollars were above health, kids , they just were not nice people at all any of them. Could never believe some of the things they came out with, over and over, their thinking .
l just thought in the end , if this is the crowd l hang with to become wealthy and when l get wealthy then no thanks , give me real people any day.
Not to say all , like people like my dad for example but tell ya what !


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## hookares

"Money" is relative to what one is accustom to having. Although I was never rich, I once was what some would consider to be a good provider. I would have preferred my ex to let me know that it was her prime interest in seeking matrimony.
The ride wouldn't have lasted nearly as long.


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## Hortensia

Now don't get me wrong, it's nothing wrong with wanting to have money. Nothing wrong to list "steadily employed and with a good income" ( not rich ) among what you want in a husband. I said NOT rich, because when you want rich, you don't focus on love and someone's heart, you focus on money.
What I mean, and I view as very wrong, is marrying someone you don't love, and/ or aren't even attracted to, because they have money. Some even choose older spouses, and hope they die so they can inherit the fortune. Despicable...Same goes for marrying to get American Green Card - pretend to love that person, use them to get what you wanted, then break their heart. That's not only prostitution physically and emotionally, but cruelty also.


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## southbound

I'm a 45 year old divorced man, and I'm not sure if all guys are like me. I have a college degree, a white collar job, and make decent money, although I don't show it, but money doesn't matter with me when looking for a woman. I'm just looking for the chemistry or the click that happens between two people. 

No, I don't want a woman who thinks she's above having a job and just wants to sit on the couch, watch soaps, and snack all day while I bring her some money, but that's more about attitude than money. If she and I have chemistry and she has a great attitude, she can work at McDonald's for all I care.


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## JCD

southbound said:


> I'm a 45 year old divorced man, and I'm not sure if all guys are like me. I have a college degree, a white collar job, and make decent money, although I don't show it, but money doesn't matter with me when looking for a woman. I'm just looking for the chemistry or the click that happens between two people.
> 
> No, I don't want a woman who thinks she's above having a job and just wants to sit on the couch, watch soaps, and snack all day while I bring her some money, but that's more about attitude than money. If she and I have chemistry and she has a great attitude, she can work at McDonald's for all I care.


Um...that is because men don't normally care about wealth and status in women (unless she is Catherine the Great).

They look for looks and personality. I am the exact same demographic as you are, and frankly, I don't care about money either.

So that isn't surprising at all.

Which is why you get THIS happening:


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## southbound

JCD said:


> Um...that is because men don't normally care about wealth and status in women (unless she is Catherine the Great).
> 
> They look for looks and personality. I am the exact same demographic as you are, and frankly, I don't care about money either.
> 
> So that isn't surprising at all.
> 
> Which is why you get THIS happening:


That's what I assumed; men and women are totally different in this situation. 

If I went to pick up a woman on our first date and she lived in a dump, I wouldn't really care. What would matter to me is her and her story. Is she a nice person? Do we share the same values? 

I suppose it depends on the degree of money desired as well. I see nothing wrong with a woman wanting a man to have a steady job and making a decent living so she's not out having to shoot squirrels for supper(although some where I live think they are delicious), but putting a lot of weight on money is a mistake in my opinion.


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## EleGirl

whitehawk said:


> l couldn't care less about it from her point of view , she deserves what she ends up with with that depth .
> 
> But the wealthy , males and females not just the guys , l found one after the other after the other , pretty revolting people to my mind, amazed non stop tbh.
> 
> l was into investing for a few years and l also grew up in a wealthy family.
> 
> But my dad was a tradesman so he was a worker that just did well in the business he built . But he remained that knock about worker person and would do anything for friends , down to earth. Totally different to typically wealthy people.
> 
> l got out of investing because the people l had to mix with were just that nothing !
> 
> Selfish , self centered , incredibly shallow, surprisingly dumb too like with other people and their almighty dollars were above health, kids , they just were not nice people at all any of them. Could never believe some of the things they came out with, over and over, their thinking .
> 
> l just thought in the end , if this is the crowd l hang with to become wealthy and when l get wealthy then no thanks , give me real people any day.
> 
> Not to say all , like people like my dad for example but tell ya what !


There is a very good book that I think most people would benefit from reading “The Millionaire Next door”. It’s based on research conducted on who makes up the wealthy (rich) in the USA. What you describe as a “typical rich person” is not what a typical rich person is like at all.

The fact is that most of the wealthy in the USA are people like your father. Most are people who live in a middle class neighborhood, drive cars that are 2 years older or more. They buy their ‘expensive’ clothing at JC Penny’s. Yep, most millionaires buy their suits off the rack at JC Penny’s. Most do not inherit their wealth, or do they make it through playing the stock market and dirty tricks. Most make their own millions through hard work efforts. 

The people who are taking about with the attitudes tend to be trust fund babies (who blow their inherited wealth in their lifetime) and people who pursue money at the expense of all else (character, ethics, hard work, bringing value to their customers) .. those who pursue a quick way to get rich.


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## EleGirl

southbound said:


> That's what I assumed; men and women are totally different in this situation.
> 
> If I went to pick up a woman on our first date and she lived in a dump, I wouldn't really care. What would matter to me is her and her story. Is she a nice person? Do we share the same values?
> 
> I suppose it depends on the degree of money desired as well. I see nothing wrong with a woman wanting a man to have a steady job and making a decent living so she's not out having to shoot squirrels for supper(although some where I live think they are delicious), but putting a lot of weight on money is a mistake in my opinion.


Historically, a woman's standard of living depends on her husband (or potential) husband's standard of living. 

If you thought that your standard of living would be that dump (and the poverty that went along with it) you would look at it very differently as well.

It's true that today women have more choices. But such social structures take a long time to change. Further, while 70% of married women work today, most do take time off to have babies. Many take a few years off to stay home with their children. Taking time off to have babies and even being a SAHM for a while, significantly hurts a woman's ability to move ahead in the work place and thus her earning ability.

Remember that a woman who is a SAHM is very much concerned, not only for her standard of living, but for that of her children.

The vast majority of men who post here have clearly stated that they will not marry a woman who is career oriented and/or who expects to be anything but a SAHM/W. Then they will criticize that a woman who expects to be 100% dependent financially on their husband wants to make sure that she marries a man who can support her and her children well? :scratchhead:


In most families, the husband's ability to earn and assets, are still the foundation for the financial well being. 

This is why women and men usually view the topic differently.


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## ocotillo

I've seen several people, including close family members and good friends go from upper middle class to net worth in excess of five million. 

Every single one of them has been affected adversely by it. None of them today are anything like the person they were originally.


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## whitehawk

EleGirl said:


> There is a very good book that I think most people would benefit from reading “The Millionaire Next door”. It’s based on research conducted on who makes up the wealthy (rich) in the USA. What you describe as a “typical rich person” is not what a typical rich person is like at all.
> 
> The fact is that most of the wealthy in the USA are people like your father. Most are people who live in a middle class neighborhood, drive cars that are 2 years older or more. They buy their ‘expensive’ clothing at JC Penny’s. Yep, most millionaires buy their suits off the rack at JC Penny’s. Most do not inherit their wealth, or do they make it through playing the stock market and dirty tricks. Most make their own millions through hard work efforts.
> 
> The people who are taking about with the attitudes tend to be trust fund babies (who blow their inherited wealth in their lifetime) and people who pursue money at the expense of all else (character, ethics, hard work, bringing value to their customers) .. those who pursue a quick way to get rich.


Yeah right can understand all that. like dad had wealthy friends but they were self made like him and all really nice and very down to earth people .

But when l was investing l was mixing with real money people. Stock market crowds, developers , house collectors, some of them had 20 or even some a few 100 houses.
Didn't like them at all.
This crowd just were not nice people .


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## JCD

whitehawk said:


> Yeah right can understand all that. like dad had wealthy friends but they were self made like him and all really nice and very down to earth people .
> 
> But when l was investing l was mixing with real money people. Stock market crowds, developers , house collectors, some of them had 20 or even some a few 100 houses.
> Didn't like them at all.
> This crowd just were not nice people .


That was the crowd, not the money.

If I hang around a wh*re house, I think I'd find a lot of women with loose virtue. You hang around a Boiler Room, you are going to meet a lot of A-holes who worship at the foot of Mammon.


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