# Any way back from 2nd EA?



## cjadek

While my now wife were dating 15 years ago she took a job at a company and struck up a friendship with one of the executives who was many years older, she told me how much of a nice man he was. I didn't think much of it at the time. Around the time of our wedding 4 years later he helped her get a part time job and I knew she had met him for lunch. At this stage I still didn't think anything of it. It wasn't until our 2nd child was born some 7 years later and my parents were visiting from my home country and we gave them my wifes old mobile phone to use while they were with staying with us. I was showing my Father how to use the phone when I started to delete some of the text messages to free up some space it was then I started reading some of the texts from this man who she had struck up the friendship with.
It was clear from the text's that this man was madly in love with my wife saying things like 'You're the love of my life and I love you so much' she never told him she loved him but would sign off with things like "lots of love and hugs xxx" but never made an effort to repal these outbursts of undying love.
I confronted her about this and she broke down begged me not to leave her and promised me on our childrens life that she would never have any contact with this man again and it was only ever a friendship and that it wasn't a PA. I took her word for that.
Fast forward 6 years and we now have 3 children and have moved back to the country of my birth. I was on our family laptop doing some work and I accidently click on her work gmail account instead of my gmail account to find an unread email sitting right there from the same man. I can't describe how I felt, I nearly vomitted into my mouth it was like deja-vu.
I read through every email and the theme was the same as before, her confiding how she was feeling (nothing about our relationship) about things etc, him persistently declaring his undying love for her and how he had been sad since the day we moved countries. It also showed that the 2 of them had chatted at least once on the phone but she had tried to call him at least 3 or 4 times. She initially said she turned to him when she was home sick and feeling down but I was suspicious as to how he knew that we'd moved countries if this was the first communication since she promised to cut all ties.
I confronted her about it and told her I was leaving her. She again broke down and told me he meant nothing more than a good friend and she was flattered that he felt so strongly about her and how he just listened to her and understood her problems. I asked how he knew we had moved countries and she come up with some lame reasosn. She denied this several times over the course of the next month but finally admitted that she had been in email contact before we left and had met him for lunch one time before we left. 
I'm trying really hard to believe her that it was never a PA and she loves me and our kids more than anything. But something in my gut just can't trust her, there has to more.
She has never volunteered anything about the EA and only told me the truth once I'd already found out more about the extend of the deception. We are now receiving marriage counselling but I just don't know if I can ever trust her again. I was able to forgive the first EA but the second I'm not so sure. How can I trust her that she is telling the truth and not holding anything else back? I'm 99% sure it's never progressed to a PA but that 1% is eating me from the inside and I'm sure there is more I haven't been able to find out and she's not telling me for fear of my walking away.
Is there anyway back from this even though we love each other and have 3 children. I feel so hurt and betrayed.


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## GusPolinski

EA + physical proximity = PA


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## Graywolf2

Have ways to monitor her communications in place (VAR, key logger, etc.) See the link below.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

Then do what I call “kicking the ant nest.” Voice your suspicions and see who she contacts. It may not be the other man (OM). It could be a friend she’s telling how much she loves you or how crazy you’re acting, Or she could tell them about a PA. 

One way to “kick the ant nest” now is to tell her that you’re going to DNA the kids. That should get her talking to someone. It’s quite simple. You just buy a kit at about any drug store or even Amazon. You swab the inside of your cheeks and the kids and send it to a lab.


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## sokillme

cjadek said:


> While my now wife were dating 15 years ago she took a job at a company and struck up a friendship with one of the executives who was many years older, she told me how much of a nice man he was. I didn't think much of it at the time. Around the time of our wedding 4 years later he helped her get a part time job and I knew she had met him for lunch. At this stage I still didn't think anything of it. It wasn't until our 2nd child was born some 7 years later and my parents were visiting from my home country and we gave them my wifes old mobile phone to use while they were with staying with us. I was showing my Father how to use the phone when I started to delete some of the text messages to free up some space it was then I started reading some of the texts from this man who she had struck up the friendship with.
> It was clear from the text's that this man was madly in love with my wife saying things like 'You're the love of my life and I love you so much' she never told him she loved him but would sign off with things like "lots of love and hugs xxx" but never made an effort to repal these outbursts of undying love.
> I confronted her about this and she broke down begged me not to leave her and promised me on our childrens life that she would never have any contact with this man again and it was only ever a friendship and that it wasn't a PA. I took her word for that.
> Fast forward 6 years and we now have 3 children and have moved back to the country of my birth. I was on our family laptop doing some work and I accidently click on her work gmail account instead of my gmail account to find an unread email sitting right there from the same man. I can't describe how I felt, I nearly vomitted into my mouth it was like deja-vu.
> I read through every email and the theme was the same as before, her confiding how she was feeling (nothing about our relationship) about things etc, him persistently declaring his undying love for her and how he had been sad since the day we moved countries. It also showed that the 2 of them had chatted at least once on the phone but she had tried to call him at least 3 or 4 times. She initially said she turned to him when she was home sick and feeling down but I was suspicious as to how he knew that we'd moved countries if this was the first communication since she promised to cut all ties.
> I confronted her about it and told her I was leaving her. She again broke down and told me he meant nothing more than a good friend and she was flattered that he felt so strongly about her and how he just listened to her and understood her problems. I asked how he knew we had moved countries and she come up with some lame reasosn. She denied this several times over the course of the next month but finally admitted that she had been in email contact before we left and had met him for lunch one time before we left.
> I'm trying really hard to believe her that it was never a PA and she loves me and our kids more than anything. But something in my gut just can't trust her, there has to more.
> She has never volunteered anything about the EA and only told me the truth once I'd already found out more about the extend of the deception. We are now receiving marriage counselling but I just don't know if I can ever trust her again. I was able to forgive the first EA but the second I'm not so sure. How can I trust her that she is telling the truth and not holding anything else back? I'm 99% sure it's never progressed to a PA but that 1% is eating me from the inside and I'm sure there is more I haven't been able to find out and she's not telling me for fear of my walking away.
> Is there anyway back from this even though we love each other and have 3 children. I feel so hurt and betrayed.


Have you told his wife yet? Why not. How many men do you know that would keep a 15 year EA, without the possibility of sex? You would be stupid to trust her again, because she is not trust worthy. You should never trust her again, this is only logical. Only you can decided if you can live with that. Looks like she loves you for your financial stability but gets off on his emotional neediness. There is no way back to your old marriage, the truth is she has basically been in two relationships since before you were married. There has never been a point in your 15 years where she was completely committed to you, or at least treated you with the respect a wife is supposed to treat a husband. Even when she knew the consequences. 

You must accept the fact that there is something wrong with her, she probably doesn't have it in her to be faithful and honest. This is harsh and it pains me to say it but I would DNA test my kids. I would also make sure she knows you are doing it. She needs to see some real consequences from her actions at the very least. You have no idea what is true here, no one would. Your wife's behavior is irrational and disconcerting. 

Look man she showed you who she was years ago a you chose to go with your heart. How did that work out for you?

By the way the question you should be asking is not "is there a way?", but "is it in your best interest?"


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## Andy1001

She didn't have a second emotional affair,she had one that lasted fifteen years.You would be very foolish to believe that nothing physical happened in fifteen years,can you account for every minute of that time,of course not.She has shown you that your ultimatums or opinions do not matter to her so she needs to face some consequences.Dna the kids as previous posters have said,tell his wife immediately and contact a lawyer. Make sure she knows you have done all this AFTER you have done it otherwise she will warn the om and he will feed his wife some story,but make sure she knows exactly what you have done.Also try and save as many of their messages as you can,on the cloud for security.I would also ask her to move out for a while but under no circumstances are you to leave the marital home,she could cite abandonment.


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## cjadek

Firstly thanks for all your replies.
Our first 2 kids are IVF so they are mine. I broke down with her one night and ask if the 3rd was mine. She nearly vomited at the suggestion and the look on her face told me all I needed to know (not that I seriously believe that she isn't but the thought crossed my mind).
I told her tonight that I'm going to reveal the EA to the OM's W and she hit the roof, water works etc. Then told me to that either I trust what she is telling or we should separate.

I'm thinking of asking her to do a Poly any advice on how to approach this. Could that be the answer to my not fully trusting her?

I am being quite irrational atm, one minute all over her showering her with love trying to move on the next minute I'm sad and reclusive. This behavior leaves her not knowing where I'm at (to be honest I don't know either). I feel it's jeopardizing any chance of a reconciliation. We have 3 kids and W is from the other side of the world, part of me fears a separation will mean her returning to her home with the children.


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## Diana7

It does sound as if its been going on continually for 15 years. Only they know if it went further, but her saying 'love and hugs' may show that there was some physical contact at least. 
Interesting that your first 2 children were ivf but not the third? Trouble is if she isnt yours what will you do? It may well cause the child to be hurt. 
The fact that your wife looked devastated when you asked her about the child means nothing. She would look devastated if she suspected the child isn't yours. 

Its hard to know what to advise. Could you trust her again after so many years of lying and deception? Will she ever stop this EA or will it just go underground? 
I do think its advisable to tell the OM's wife, and if he spins her some story then you have the proof in the emails. Poor woman, being with a man who for many years has declared undying live for another. At least it should stop the EA, although his wife may throw him out.

I dont think you should be showering her with love, I would stay consistently cool, polite and distant for now. Her getting angry and emotional when you say you were going to tell the OM's wife is appalling. This has been going on for 15 years, with her claiming it had stopped 7 years ago. Of course you cant trust her.What does she expect?Only a fool would trust someone who has lied and deceived for over 15 years. She isnt showing any repentance or understanding of what she has done to you, or of the fact that the trust is shattered.


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## Herschel

This lie has been going on for 15 years? Is there any way back? Only if you shut off all feelings and emotions. I mean, if you can live with someone who has disrespected you and your marriage for 15 years and didn't stop when caught and never really seemed to care to...well, I guess good for you.


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## manfromlamancha

This has never stopped - that much is clear. Also, as others are saying, there is a very, very high percentage that this went physical. She has had over 15 years of opportunity.

Her reaction to telling his wife should tell you volumes of what you need to know. She is defending her lover and protecting him. Absolutely you should tell the OMW. For many reasons - shed light on the affair, it is the moral and right thing to do (for the OMW), to draw him out and expose hims to your wife so that she can see what kind of man he really is (based on how he handles the exposure).

Are you and your wife from the same country ? Is the OM from the same country too ? Would you mind saying what country that is ? 

If she gave you the ultimatum "trust me or we separate", your reply should have been "neither - there is a third and most probable option - we divorce, not separate!" She should be in no position to be giving ultimatums.

Destroy the other [email protected]@rd through exposure to his wife and also the company that they met at (if he is still there). Do not accept any more lies from your "wife". Have your 3rd child DNA tested even if it is just for effect to show your wife what you think of her. Be prepared for plenty of trickle truth so plant some VARs, go into snoop mode on her phone and computer etc. and never reveal your source of any info.

You have to be ready to really let her go in order to come out the other side in tact. At the moment she is not showing any remorse (she is just sorry that she is caught). And it appears that she will never come clean on her own (she will just admit to whatever you have discovered).

This is not a 2nd EA but one long PA. One that has lasted longer than your marriage has (think about that - I wonder who she thinks of as the OM in this relationship).

For your own well being, don't rug-sweep, hide your head in the sand etc as you have been doing since the start. And besides going into surveillance mode (snooping), you should also secure your assets and finances as well as your custodial rights (get an attorney asap). And start the 180.


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## dianaelaine59

Ugh! You told her you were going to tell the OM's wife??? NOT a good idea!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## arbitrator

*As the old saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, shame on me!"

You have effectively let 15 years of the deception and "trickle-truthing" water flow, almost totally unchecked beneath the bridge! 

Think about it! There is not a snowball's chance in hell, that over the span of those 15 years, that the pair of them weren't exactly smart enough to find themselves some cloistered, out-of-the-way place to keep their little covert PA perpetuated! And if you happen to somehow disagree, then the good, profitable business folks out in Las Vegas would absolutely love to quote you some rather interesting odds!

In essence, it's well past time to do "the 180," schedule an appointment with a good "piranha" family attorney to advise you of both your property and custodial rights! And since they both work for the same firm, what is wrong with reporting these findings to their HR Department? Companies nowadays take an extremely dim view of worker sexual fraternization, both on and off of the premises, more especially with the company being used as largely a staging ground for it!

There's an infidelity iceberg that is sticking up out of the water where you can only see some 10-15% of it! 

What you don't see is the other 85-90%!
Be wary!*


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## rzmpf

cjadek said:


> Is there anyway back from this even though we love each other and have 3 children.


Back to what? This guy was basically in your relationship the whole time since she met him while you where dating and then throughout your marriage. You want back to that?

There never was relationship of just you and your W. You would have to make something new from scratch. Regardless if there was something physical (and it's unlikely that there never has been any sexual contact) she used him for support, to vent etc. All this was never part of the relationship between the two of you, just between her and him. I highly doubt that she will be able to change herself and these dynamics after all this time. The marriage you thought you had was just a facade for a threeway relationship with you out of the loop. Basically your relationship only "worked" as it was with him in the picture.

P.S.
Swearing on your children's life, getting sick at the thought of your kid being his etc...that's all BS you can't take seriously, especially under these circumstances. Millions of kids would be dead by now for everyone that lied and swore on their kids' life. The same goes for getting sick. Could be the truth, could be guilt, could be that she does not know, could be the realization that it could be possible...who knows. Because you can't trust her, her every reaction and statement on this matter is questionable without evidence.

Why did you have to resort to IVF? Was the problem on your end or hers?

P.P.S
Her "trust me or leave me" is just blackmail, and shows no sign of you being the love of her life. Regarding the kids and your W taking them abroad you should consult an attorney what you could do about that. First thing I would do is store their passports at a safe place (bank safe, parents etc.) just in case.


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## Diana7

In the uk a parent cant legally take the children away to live in another country without the other parents permission. As the above poster said, put their passports in a safe place where she will never find them to make sure she doesn't run off with them. Get some good legal advise.


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## alexm

I'm going to go in a slightly different direction as the others here have gone. Not saying I'm right, just a different POV.

I think your wife has a certain loyalty to this man, for starters. He got her a job, and likely helped her in her previous career (where they met). She obviously liked him then (though not necessarily _liked_ him) and he's clearly shown her a certain level of admiration.

And that's something that's difficult to reject, especially after so long. That doesn't mean AT ALL that she shouldn't, for your sake, of course, but it's clearly not something she wants to consider.

I don't think she's IN love with him. I do think she loves him, but not romantically. For starters, 15 years is a long time, and it's highly likely that she's never seen anything but the 'good' side of him.

It's also highly likely she doesn't see the forest for the trees. They guy is in love with her, clearly, and while she probably knows this, she also doesn't quite see what he's doing - and that's playing the long game. I'd be surprised if she hasn't, at some point over the years, assumed she's made it clear he's not an option. She's married, he knows this. She has kids, he knows this. She doesn't even live in the same country any more.

From her POV, she feels that this is safe, IMO, and that she can continue to talk with him, confide in him, etc. just like friends do, because, in her mind, nothing will ever happen between them.

That doesn't make any of it okay, but I don't get the impression she feels she's carrying on an affair, let alone an EA, despite her trying to keep it somewhat underground.

If I were in OP's shoes, I wouldn't be making accusations or even getting visibly upset. I'd be sitting down and talking to her about the optics of this, and how it impacts our marriage. How it's not okay to accept other people showing romantic love, regardless of whether you feel the same or not.

And that's what I think this is - he's in love with her, she loves him as a trusted (and old) friend, who she feels some sort of loyalty towards. They're each getting totally different things out of this, and the distance between them allows her to feel safe about her choice to continue with him in this manner.

But the underlying issue, to me, is that she doesn't see this for what it really is, or how the OP sees it. It's an EA, to be sure, but not necessarily a romantic one for her. As OP said, the messages he's come across seem to be rather one-sided on OM's part, with nothing more than non-romantic affection returned by his wife. No mention of anything sexual, either. And no mention of whether she tells this guy how unhappy she is, or otherwise negative comments about her marriage or OP in general. From the sounds of it, she speaks to him like she'd speak to any other friend.

That said - it's not okay, of course, and it should stop.

*ETA - this reminded me of a girl I knew back in high school. I had been dating another girl for well over a year at that point, and this girl had a thing for me. It was clear and obvious, and my girlfriend was not comfortable with it. From my POV, which I remember clearly, I saw no problem with it all - because I had zero interest in this other girl. She wasn't a side-chick or a back up plan to me, she was just a girl that happened to like me, which was not MY problem. Because she hung around in the same circles as I did, it wasn't as simple as never speaking to her, let alone seeing her. Besides, I liked her, but as nothing more than a friend. Basically, I didn't think twice about it, especially in regards to my girlfriend. She was no threat TO ME, but she definitely was to her. I didn't get that at the time.

Then one night, she tried to kiss me. I (obviously) never once said anything or did anything with this girl that she may have construed as interest in her - or so I thought. In hindsight, not saying "no, not interested" CAN be construed as her maybe, possibly having a chance, especially if I were to find myself single. She didn't wait until I was single. Lesson learned.

This is kind of how I feel about this situation. Again, I may be wrong, but this is what I'm seeing from what OP has so far posted. Apart from his wife simply speaking to this man, it doesn't appear that she's actually said anything romantic or sexual or otherwise indicating those kinds of feelings towards him.

What I don't think she's seeing is that the relationship she has with him is FAR different than the one he has with her.


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## VladDracul

Andy1001 said:


> You would be very foolish to believe that nothing physical happened in fifteen years,


I don't know Andy, I've known men to stay married for fifteen years where next to nothing has physically happened.  

Regrading her getting pissed off when CJ said he was going to tell the other cats wife does not, in and of itself, indicate anything physical happened. (but bear in mind what I've said about when a man and a woman are friends, one or both are thinking about sex) If most guy's wives would falsely accuse them of banging the neighbor's wife and threatening to tell the husband, they'd go ballistic to. When accused, an innocent person will typically give you a unequivocal, no frills, flat out, and often angry denial. Beating around the bush, swearing on their mother's grave, weak and mumbling denials, avoiding outright denials, denial via reasons why they couldn't have done it, are signs that something may be rotten in Denmark. I'm more impressed that a person is innocent when they fly in your face like a bantam rooster when they are accused.


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## Pixel

Your situation sounds almost identical to mine. My husband has been communicating via text, email, and whatsapp with the same woman (I think) for years and years. I, like you, swept it under the rug until my most recent discovery. I also like you, have no idea if it was physical or not. However, reading your story I can look objectively and say this of course was physical! Don't be stupid like I have been! Get out! It hurts too much to live like this! 

Your wife sounds exactly like my husband. Maybe we should hook them up! Hahah. Bad joke. Anyway, get out. Get out. It won't ever go away.


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## arbitrator

*But for 15 years? And with those documented text messages?

Sorry, but that alone, IMHO, of its very own accord, definitely meets the "stench test," that something indeed is, and has been rotting away in Denmark, and for an inordinate amount of time!*


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## bigfoot

So you are falling into a familiar trap. You discuss your decisions with your wife. You don't tell her what you are going to do.

Heck, you should actively lie to her and tell her that you are not gonna intrude into OM"s life AND THEN CONTACT HIS WIFE.

OM has probably gotten a heads up already so he's gonna destroy evidence that you might want. Contact his wife immediately and do not announce it to your wife.

His wife may help you with discovery and good for you. She may confront him and he tells your wife and good for you cause you know they are in contact. She may confront him and your wife ignores his reaching out and good for you cause you know she's NC.

Cheating is dirty work. So investigating it is dirty work. Stop being so respectful and decide of you want the truth and want an honest life. Of you do, then get your hands dirty and do stuff behind the scenes. Blow up secrets.


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## VladDracul

Probably the most pragmatic thing he can do, for his own peace of mind is get her to take a poly. If she refuses, he's going to have to go with what he's got and make his decisions based on that. If it were me, I'd do the poly before contacting the other wife. (albeit one can argue that the other wife needs to know her husbands crush on another woman)


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## *Deidre*

How is marriage counseling going to fix a character defect in your wife? 

I wouldn't let it go this time, I'd separate and think about if staying married is a wise idea. But, she sounds like she is into this guy, too. Yea yea...I know, he's so much older and she feels obligated. She likes the attention he gives her, and doesn't care that he is married also? She is telling him things that are causing him to stay interested...if she was like, look I'm married, can't talk anymore, he wouldn't keep professing his love for her. Marriage counseling won't fix your wife's character problems...but, separation will clear your head and help you make a better decision as to if staying with her is wise. Sorry you're hurting.


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## Lostinthought61

Be very very clear with her....at this point she does not make the rules...they may or may not be empty threats from her...either way what it does demonstrate is that telling his wife forced your wife to say that she wanted to separate tells you how much she cares for him and not for your marriage.....i woudl have told her right there and then, pack your suitcase, and leave...your separating your divorcing and tell her that you are going to reach out to his wife and you are getting your last child DNA, and you are going to tell her parents and your family and you will do everything and anything you want.


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## Mizzbak

@cjadek, I am so sorry that your wife has hurt you like this. There are many here who understand your feelings all too well.

As to whether you can find a way back to a place where you could consider staying married, I'm afraid that only you can answer that question. Many have and many haven't. People who heal from the awful pain caused by their spouse's infidelity can do that from inside their marriage, or by simply letting their marriage go. Some of us have made the journey with our unfaithful partner's support. Some of us haven't had that, or haven't even wanted it. But you don't have to decide any of this now, and you should take as long as you need to decide. 

*Your emotional state*
I went from being neutrally OK(ish), to feeling love for my husband and wanting my mariageto survive, to wanting to divorce my husband, several times a day when I was working things through in my head. Feeling like you are being irrational and oscillating between feelings of desperate love and then great sadness (and probably enormous anger and bitterness - if not now, then with time) is completely normal. You are trying to internally reconcile the person that you thought your wife was, with what she has done. You are trying to find a way forward. You are trying to understand all of the consequences of whatever decisions are available to you. You keep "forgetting" and normal life takes over for a little while and then you remember again. And then it starts all over again. Don't expect it to make sense, no part of this "makes sense". If you can afford it, I would recommend that you go for individual counselling (IC) as well. Remember that your MC's patient (if they are good) is your marriage, not you. You need someone who is completely on YOUR side, and is focused on helping you understand what you need and want. If you can't see a therapist by yourself, then do you have a good and wise friend or religious confidant that you can talk this through with? 

*PA or EA?* 
I'm going to get shouted down by many on TAM saying this, but I do believe that it is possible that your wife did not have a sexual PA (I'm not going to comment on hugging, kissing etc.). (Although, I don't personally see an EA as a far lesser betrayal.) My husband's morality was not the same as mine. In his mind, as long as he didn't have sex then what he was doing "wasn't so bad". It was wrong, but not an incredibly damaging betrayal (in his mind, NOT mine). When I found out about my husband's second betrayal, I asked him to have a polygraph but backed down once we started working through things. When I found evidence of things that he had "under-represented", he offered to take the polygraph himself. And he did. And it was humiliating for him and very painful. And I'm glad that it was both those things. Because by doing it, he proved some things to me. Firstly that he was (in all likelihood - polygraphs are not 100% guaranteed) telling the truth; and secondly that he was willing to do this to prove how committed he was to helping me recover my faith in our marriage and his commitment to it. He was ashamed. This was a good thing. (If you want some more info about my polygraph situation, please just ask.)

*Disclosing to the OM's wife*
Absolutely. (If you had done this when you first found out about what had happened, then it is very likely that the relationship would not have continued. Your wife may very well have just found another place to get her emotional high, but she may not have. (A lot of if's and but's here.) Don't use disclosure as a threat against your wife. The OM's wife deserves to know. Just like you do. You are disclosing because this is the best way to make sure that the affair stops in its tracks. Shine a light on their behaviour - let the full weight of consequences come to play. Their choices were neither morally acceptable nor constructive, and meeting their behaviour head-on is the best way for them to face up to what they did. Just forward what you know to the OM's wife. In my case, the OW's H told me enough to get things out in the open. Do I think he did it in anger - absolutely? But I am also very grateful that he did do it. 

*Consequences and honesty*
Your wife is still hiding behind thinking that there could be a good reason why she did this to you and your family. The lame excuses - that is her trying to come up with a reason that makes what she did acceptable to both her and you. She is trying to avoid telling you the truth because it shames her to confront it. She enjoyed having him declare his love, tell her how much she meant to him; and she welcomed this, even knowing that it was wrong. Knowing that it would and had hurt you. She did it because it made her feel good. Because she thought that she would get away with it. She didn't just cheat on her wedding vows, but she stole from you (because all that emotional energy and connection belonged to you). She has a very long journey to make on her own to understand herself and her actions and choices. 

When I first asked my husband to take the polygraph, he got frustrated and angry. I remember him sitting on the edge of our bed saying "Why do you want this? I've told you the truth. Don't you trust me?" I answered, "No. I don't. I may never trust you again." I think that was the moment that he finally began to understand what he had done. Your wife does not currently deserve your trust. To tell you that either you trust her or you should separate? After what you have found out? It's not just unfair, it's ridiculous.

Your wife wants you to let this go (like you did last time). I did this the first time with my husband, as well. You were neither gullible nor naive because you did just that. Your wife said that she loved you and was very sorry for what she'd done, that she would never do something like this to you again. You loved her and you trusted her. You took her promise at face value. Unfortunately, you can no longer do that. If she threatens separation to prevent the truth from coming out, then she is more concerned with her reputation (and the OM's) than she is with the future of your marriage. She is still living in the place where if you close your eyes tightly then the bad stuff goes away. You don't live there.

My thoughts are with you - your situation speaks very closely to me. Be strong.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

*Deidre* said:


> How is marriage counseling going to fix a character defect in your wife?
> 
> I wouldn't let it go this time, I'd separate and think about if staying married is a wise idea. But, she sounds like she is into this guy, too. Yea yea...I know, he's so much older and she feels obligated. She likes the attention he gives her, and doesn't care that he is married also? She is telling him things that are causing him to stay interested...if she was like, look I'm married, can't talk anymore, he wouldn't keep professing his love for her. Marriage counseling won't fix your wife's character problems...but, separation will clear your head and help you make a better decision as to if staying with her is wise. Sorry you're hurting.


I agree with this. I'd separate to put some space between the 2 of you. It makes a huge statement to her. If you decide that you want to work on it, she has lots of work to do. Get marriage counseling then too.


----------



## Yeswecan

Sorry you are here. IMO, this was physical 15 years ago. OM has been dwelling on it for 15 years and continues to state his undying love for cj's WW.


----------



## TDSC60

Her threatening separation if he tells OMW shows that she holds OM in higher regard than her husband. She would rather leave her husband than cause OM distress.

CJ - what does telling OMW have to do with trusting your wife. Your wife says trust her or separate. That is a threat you cannot back down from. Tell her you cannot trust her because she stayed in communication with OM even after you told her how you felt about him years ago and she promised to stop.

Lastly. If IVF was required for the first two pregnancies then you have to DNA the last kid. It is not impossible that the child is yours, but there is a question simply because of the situation with the first two.


----------



## sokillme

cjadek said:


> Firstly thanks for all your replies.
> Our first 2 kids are IVF so they are mine. I broke down with her one night and ask if the 3rd was mine. She nearly vomited at the suggestion and the look on her face told me all I needed to know (not that I seriously believe that she isn't but the thought crossed my mind).
> I told her tonight that I'm going to reveal the EA to the OM's W and she hit the roof, water works etc. Then told me to that either I trust what she is telling or we should separate.
> 
> I'm thinking of asking her to do a Poly any advice on how to approach this. Could that be the answer to my not fully trusting her?
> 
> I am being quite irrational atm, one minute all over her showering her with love trying to move on the next minute I'm sad and reclusive. This behavior leaves her not knowing where I'm at (to be honest I don't know either). I feel it's jeopardizing any chance of a reconciliation. We have 3 kids and W is from the other side of the world, part of me fears a separation will mean her returning to her home with the children.


Her reaction could be getting caught. Frankly, you have proven that you have no ability to read her, which is understandable a person who could live a second life for 15 years are usually really good at lying. Besides that, it will give her some consequences and you some agency. Do it. 

I want to know what you think you are reconciling to? She has had a relationship with another man your entire marriage. You don't think you're worth more than that, you don't think you can do better than that? 

Why would you not tell his wife what have you got to lose exactly except that you are just passive. Sounds like you are just afraid. Passive men get bullied and abused as you have been for 15 years. Your wife is an emotional school yard bully and you are her target. The way you get bullies to stop picking on you is to punch back. 

Telling his wife puts a stop to this once and for all or at least give you another person to keep an eye on him. It also brakes the fantasy that these two idiots have had about their affair. It places it squarely in the reality of just at of two emotionally immature people behaving like fools. Do you want to be done with this or not? Stand up and start fighting for yourself. 

Take the kids passports and go talk to a lawyer so you can find out your rights. DON'T TELL HER. 

All I have to say is you have let her emotionally manipulate you for 15 years, you have never given her consequences and if you don't change your ways now you will be her again in 5 years. Truthfully, even if you do I doubt she is even capable of being honest. She is a con. Her whole life is a con. You married a charlatan. If you continue it will just be more of the same. 

Thing is, I think people like you who refuse to do anything to fight for themselves really deep down want to be where they are. It's a parasitic relationship, you like being the host to her parasites, there must be something you get out of it. That is the only explanation for your lack of action. Maybe some of the issue here is you? Why are you allowing this to continue? Why are you allowing yourself to be abused?


----------



## sokillme

Pixel said:


> Your situation sounds almost identical to mine. My husband has been communicating via text, email, and whatsapp with the same woman (I think) for years and years. I, like you, swept it under the rug until my most recent discovery. I also like you, have no idea if it was physical or not. However, reading your story I can look objectively and say this of course was physical! Don't be stupid like I have been! Get out! It hurts too much to live like this!
> 
> Your wife sounds exactly like my husband. Maybe we should hook them up! Hahah. Bad joke. Anyway, get out. Get out. It won't ever go away.


How do you know they aren't. Have you heard from her husband?


----------



## Pixel

sokillme said:


> How do you know they aren't. Have you heard from her husband?


HAHA no.


----------



## cjadek

Mizzbak said:


> @cjadek, I am so sorry that your wife has hurt you like this. There are many here who understand your feelings all too well.
> 
> As to whether you can find a way back to a place where you could consider staying married, I'm afraid that only you can answer that question. Many have and many haven't. People who heal from the awful pain caused by their spouse's infidelity can do that from inside their marriage, or by simply letting their marriage go. Some of us have made the journey with our unfaithful partner's support. Some of us haven't had that, or haven't even wanted it. But you don't have to decide any of this now, and you should take as long as you need to decide.
> 
> *Your emotional state*
> I went from being neutrally OK(ish), to feeling love for my husband and wanting my mariageto survive, to wanting to divorce my husband, several times a day when I was working things through in my head. Feeling like you are being irrational and oscillating between feelings of desperate love and then great sadness (and probably enormous anger and bitterness - if not now, then with time) is completely normal. You are trying to internally reconcile the person that you thought your wife was, with what she has done. You are trying to find a way forward. You are trying to understand all of the consequences of whatever decisions are available to you. You keep "forgetting" and normal life takes over for a little while and then you remember again. And then it starts all over again. Don't expect it to make sense, no part of this "makes sense". If you can afford it, I would recommend that you go for individual counselling (IC) as well. Remember that your MC's patient (if they are good) is your marriage, not you. You need someone who is completely on YOUR side, and is focused on helping you understand what you need and want. If you can't see a therapist by yourself, then do you have a good and wise friend or religious confidant that you can talk this through with?
> 
> *PA or EA?*
> I'm going to get shouted down by many on TAM saying this, but I do believe that it is possible that your wife did not have a sexual PA (I'm not going to comment on hugging, kissing etc.). (Although, I don't personally see an EA as a far lesser betrayal.) My husband's morality was not the same as mine. In his mind, as long as he didn't have sex then what he was doing "wasn't so bad". It was wrong, but not an incredibly damaging betrayal (in his mind, NOT mine). When I found out about my husband's second betrayal, I asked him to have a polygraph but backed down once we started working through things. When I found evidence of things that he had "under-represented", he offered to take the polygraph himself. And he did. And it was humiliating for him and very painful. And I'm glad that it was both those things. Because by doing it, he proved some things to me. Firstly that he was (in all likelihood - polygraphs are not 100% guaranteed) telling the truth; and secondly that he was willing to do this to prove how committed he was to helping me recover my faith in our marriage and his commitment to it. He was ashamed. This was a good thing. (If you want some more info about my polygraph situation, please just ask.)
> 
> *Disclosing to the OM's wife*
> Absolutely. (If you had done this when you first found out about what had happened, then it is very likely that the relationship would not have continued. Your wife may very well have just found another place to get her emotional high, but she may not have. (A lot of if's and but's here.) Don't use disclosure as a threat against your wife. The OM's wife deserves to know. Just like you do. You are disclosing because this is the best way to make sure that the affair stops in its tracks. Shine a light on their behaviour - let the full weight of consequences come to play. Their choices were neither morally acceptable nor constructive, and meeting their behaviour head-on is the best way for them to face up to what they did. Just forward what you know to the OM's wife. In my case, the OW's H told me enough to get things out in the open. Do I think he did it in anger - absolutely? But I am also very grateful that he did do it.
> 
> *Consequences and honesty*
> Your wife is still hiding behind thinking that there could be a good reason why she did this to you and your family. The lame excuses - that is her trying to come up with a reason that makes what she did acceptable to both her and you. She is trying to avoid telling you the truth because it shames her to confront it. She enjoyed having him declare his love, tell her how much she meant to him; and she welcomed this, even knowing that it was wrong. Knowing that it would and had hurt you. She did it because it made her feel good. Because she thought that she would get away with it. She didn't just cheat on her wedding vows, but she stole from you (because all that emotional energy and connection belonged to you). She has a very long journey to make on her own to understand herself and her actions and choices.
> 
> When I first asked my husband to take the polygraph, he got frustrated and angry. I remember him sitting on the edge of our bed saying "Why do you want this? I've told you the truth. Don't you trust me?" I answered, "No. I don't. I may never trust you again." I think that was the moment that he finally began to understand what he had done. Your wife does not currently deserve your trust. To tell you that either you trust her or you should separate? After what you have found out? It's not just unfair, it's ridiculous.
> 
> Your wife wants you to let this go (like you did last time). I did this the first time with my husband, as well. You were neither gullible nor naive because you did just that. Your wife said that she loved you and was very sorry for what she'd done, that she would never do something like this to you again. You loved her and you trusted her. You took her promise at face value. Unfortunately, you can no longer do that. If she threatens separation to prevent the truth from coming out, then she is more concerned with her reputation (and the OM's) than she is with the future of your marriage. She is still living in the place where if you close your eyes tightly then the bad stuff goes away. You don't live there.
> 
> My thoughts are with you - your situation speaks very closely to me. Be strong.


Thank you for posting this it resonates strongly with me. If you could share more about your polygraph experience I'd really appreciate that.


----------



## cjadek

Thanks all for your thoughtful and thought provoking replies, I've learnt allot about my situation and myself and how I plan to proceed.

I'm getting my W to write a timeline of the EA and encourage her to leave nothing out, obviously dates will be sketchy given the timeline but the interactions won't be whatever they were (PA).

Then I'm going to hit her with a poly to prove that timeline isn't more lies and half truths anything but full, frank and total honesty will be terminal for our marriage. 

Anyway thanks to you all I am now much more comfortable with whatever and however this turns out. I read the 180 and have implement my version of it, I call it the 135. I woke up this morning full of purpose because no matter what happens I am awesome and I'll be just fine with or without her.

The more she's talked about it the more I'm being swaying by fact my W's father died in her mid teens which totally rocked her world as he was her world, and she viewed OM as a sympathetic father figure (he is 12-15 years older) who listened intently and told her the nice things she wanted to hear, things a Dad might say. Please comment on this as my bull**** filter is clearly not functioning 100%. The email trail from both of my discoveries align with this.

She has been at painful lengths to say there has been and never ever was any PA. Too me there is a possibility there was before we were married. She is convincing, but pathological liers are aren't they!!

The bottom line is I gave my W a 2nd chance when many wouldn't have and she slammed that goodwill/trust (some say naivety) back into my face then lied to my face to cover up detail.


----------



## VladDracul

Out of curiosity CJ, how does she respond when you ask accusatory type questions? Give an example if you can.


----------



## ShatteredStill

I'm so very sorry that you're going through this pain. People who haven't experienced EA's really don't understand that it can be an even bigger betrayal than a PA in many ways. Knowing that your 'partner' has spent a life sharing intimacies with another person is excruciating. I've lived this. It's terrible. Again, I'm very sorry.


----------



## GusPolinski

She's spent years successfully lying to you -- a poly is pointless.

Either she's a really good liar and she'll pass or she'll fail but manage to convince you not to trust the poly because she was so nervous because she loves you so much and was afraid that she'd lose you and that's why she failed because her heart was beating so fast and blah blah blah blah blah.

Still, if you're just set on the poly, don't mention it until you're in the parking lot at the testing facility. Otherwise you give her nothing but time to study up on how to beat a poly.

Men don't spend years investing themselves in EAs unless they're getting something out of it. And since they spent years working together... well, it's not hard to guess exactly what he was getting out of it.

Rationalize all you like, but know this --

They've had sex.


----------



## sokillme

cjadek said:


> The more she's talked about it the more I'm being swaying by fact my W's father died in her mid teens which totally rocked her world as he was her world, and she viewed OM as a sympathetic father figure (he is 12-15 years older) who listened intently and told her the nice things she wanted to hear, things a Dad might say. Please comment on this as my bull**** filter is clearly not functioning 100%. The email trail from both of my discoveries align with this.


My mother's father died when she was 5, it caused her to marry bad men but she never and would never cheat. I get my black and white thinking about this from her. So what you say may be true but that is really not an excuse. I see this all the time the desire to know why. The real question is does it matter, it doesn't fix her even if you know the reason. It just shows that she is defective and probably not a good choice to continue. The only person who can fix her is her and she has wasted 15 years at this point. Times running out for you to have a good marriage, assuming that was one of your dreams when you were young. You ain't getting any younger waiting for her to fix her 5hit. 

I think you should get the timeline and then spring the poly. Thing is if she refuses to take it then that has to be it. You can't back down, unless you want more of the same. I hope she understands she is hanging on by a thread. If she really is, maybe she thinks you are all talk, she was able to con you before. Looks like she just said everything you wanted to hear and then continued acting exactly the same way. She probably knows she can do the same now. You must remember if she can't be honest she is not worth much in a relationship, at least if you want a healthy one. If you look at it that way the ball isn't even in your court. 

One more time why are you not telling the man's wife. You are participating in the cover up. What are you afraid of? Where is your compassion for this lady. You of all people should understand the betrayal yet you have no empathy for this woman. This would be probably the most effective way to take some control and power in this situation and you refuse to use it. Again there is that passiveness I keep talking about. I think there is a very good chance you will find out this was a PA, are you prepared for that? Then the question becomes your third child. 

If you are smart and move on when you learn to be assertive you will be a good catch for some other woman, you had a 15 year faithful relationship from your end. That makes you valuable. However you should never love anyone enough to let them abuse you. You are responsible for protecting yourself at all times, just like they say it the ring. This passiveness you have shown will make you attractive to the wrong type of woman. And it will turn of the right kind. Woman don't like passive men, the ones that do like them because they can dominate them. 

No person in your life is worth your self respect. No matter what you do try to remember that. It's really better to be alone.


----------



## cjadek

VladDracul said:


> Out of curiosity CJ, how does she respond when you ask accusatory type questions? Give an example if you can.


She responds with something like "I told him I wasn't interested in anything but being his friend I told him I waited along time for you to come into my life and I would never do anything to harm that (sounds contradictory in the current context eh!). He said he can accept that but just wants to keep in contact just to know how I'm doing"


----------



## cjadek

I haven't told the OM's W as I haven't been bothered until now to research where the poor woman lives or even what her name is.
I will follow up on this in due course it's just not a high priority for me right now.


----------



## cjadek

GusPolinski said:


> She's spent years successfully lying to you -- a poly is pointless.
> 
> Either she's a really good liar and she'll pass or she'll fail but manage to convince you not to trust the poly because she was so nervous because she loves you so much and was afraid that she'd lose you and that's why she failed because her heart was beating so fast and blah blah blah blah blah.
> 
> Still, if you're just set on the poly, don't mention it until you're in the parking lot at the testing facility. Otherwise you give her nothing but time to study up on how to beat a poly.
> 
> Men don't spend years investing themselves in EAs unless they're getting something out of it. And since they spent years working together... well, it's not hard to guess exactly what he was getting out of it.
> 
> Rationalize all you like, but know this --
> 
> They've had sex.


While they may well have had sex I haven't seen any clues/hint to this end in any of there correspondence not one suggestive comment or innuendo. Between the 2 times I've 'caught them' I've read quite a few pages of dialogue. I would've thought I'd have seen even hint if that were the case. (This doesn't mean I'm convinced they didn't)


----------



## Malaise

cjadek said:


> Thanks all for your thoughtful and thought provoking replies, I've learnt allot about my situation and myself and how I plan to proceed.
> 
> I'm getting my W to write a timeline of the EA and encourage her to leave nothing out, obviously dates will be sketchy given the timeline but the interactions won't be whatever they were (PA).
> 
> Then I'm going to hit her with a poly to prove that timeline isn't more lies and half truths anything but full, frank and total honesty will be terminal for our marriage.
> 
> Anyway thanks to you all I am now much more comfortable with whatever and however this turns out. I read the 180 and have implement my version of it, I call it the 135. I woke up this morning full of purpose because no matter what happens I am awesome and I'll be just fine with or without her.
> 
> The more she's talked about it the more I'm being swaying by fact my W's father died in her mid teens which totally rocked her world as he was her world, and she viewed OM as a sympathetic father figure (he is 12-15 years older) who listened intently and told her the nice things she wanted to hear, things a Dad might say. Please comment on this as my bull**** filter is clearly not functioning 100%. The email trail from both of my discoveries align with this.
> 
> She has been at painful lengths to say there has been and never ever was any PA. Too me there is a possibility there was before we were married. She is convincing, but pathological liers are aren't they!!
> 
> *The bottom line is I gave my W a 2nd chance when many wouldn't have and she slammed that goodwill/trust (some say naivety) back into my face then lied to my face to cover up detail*.


What was her reaction when you said this to her?


----------



## cjadek

Malaise said:


> What was her reaction when you said this to her?


She'd say things like. "I'm so sorry I've hurt you, he was never really in my life he was just a guy who fell in love with me and yes I know it's selfish I can't believe what I've done to you and our marriage all for a guy I just saw as a good friend, I've been so stupid, you are only man I love always have and always will. I had the opportunity to be with him when he told me he loved me but I said no I don't love you I love CJ and nothing will ever change that"


----------



## Andy1001

cjadek said:


> She'd say things like. "I'm so sorry I've hurt you, he was never really in my life he was just a guy who fell in love with me and yes I know it's selfish I can't believe what I've done to you and our marriage all for a guy I just saw as a good friend, I've been so stupid, you are only man I love always have and always will. I had the opportunity to be with him when he told me he loved me but I said no I don't love you I love CJ and nothing will ever change that"


I hope you don't believe this crap.For FIFTEEN years she has been lying to you,men have spent less time in prison after getting a life sentence.
I agree with Gus,the poly is pointless,I know how they work and your wife is too good an actress and too far in denial for it to work.You may get the parking lot confession but that's about it.
You need to wake the f*** up and do something because this 135 talk and not telling the om's wife is rug sweeping at an Olympic level.If you are happy to live your life as it is now then keep doing exactly what you have been doing i.e. nothing,keep begging your wife and pleading with her and she will lose more respect for you every day,but she doesn't have much anyway so it doesn't matter.Tell her you are speaking to a lawyer and advice her to do likewise,that should show her you mean business.


----------



## Malaise

cjadek said:


> She'd say things like. "I'm so sorry I've hurt you, he was never really in my life he was just a guy who fell in love with me and yes I know it's selfish I can't believe what I've done to you and our marriage all for a guy I just saw as a good friend, I've been so stupid, you are only man I love always have and always will. I had the opportunity to be with him when he told me he loved me but I said no I don't love you I love CJ and nothing will ever change that"



How much of this, do you think, is self serving crap, and how much is true?

Fifteen years of lying and being selfish is not an anomaly, it's who she is. The anomaly here would be her being honest.


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## Malaise

cjadek said:


> While they may well have had sex I haven't seen any clues/hint to this end in any of there correspondence not one suggestive comment or innuendo. Between the 2 times I've 'caught them' I've read quite a few pages of dialogue. I would've thought I'd have seen even hint if that were the case. (This doesn't mean I'm convinced they didn't)


And don't get caught up on wondering if it went PA. Is that the deal breaker for you? And not the years of lying?


----------



## arbitrator

cjadek said:


> While they may well have had sex I haven't seen any clues/hint to this end in any of there correspondence not one suggestive comment or innuendo. Between the 2 times I've 'caught them' I've read quite a few pages of dialogue. I would've thought I'd have seen even hint if that were the case. (This doesn't mean I'm convinced they didn't)


* @cjadek ~ While they may profess their undying love for each other, having had sex with each other is just one subject matter that neither of them will rarely, if ever, want to confess to, either orally or in written form! To negligently do so could possibly jeopardize both their social and employment livelihoods! Both would greatly prefer to carry on as "Plan B's" than to let their spouse and family know about their shameful little deceptive arrangement! 

And while it is rather unmistakable that a longtime PA did, in fact, occur between them, that in and of itself, is proof positive that you, as well as your children, were undeniably and consciably betrayed! 

She doesn't really have to connect sex organs with someone to evoke gross infidelity ~ she already did that with intertwining her heart with his, and then simply saw fit to lie, vacillate, and to "trickle-truth" to you about it for some 15 years! 

For simplicity sake, let's just say to hell with the extremely high probability that physical sex actually occurred between them! Let's say that a PA never happened!

Given that, doesn't 15 years of an emotional attachment to another man count for something? It's more than apparent that she deceptively left the emotional exclusivity of her marital union with you so many, many years ago, and that the only true constant here is that she has unflinchingly continued to lie to both you and herself about it for all of these years!

And while it's all too apparent that you definitely do not want to be in the company of an unremorseful cheater, you sure as hell don't want to be in the midst of some unconscionable liar either!*


----------



## eric1

cjadek said:


> I haven't told the OM's W as I haven't been bothered until now to research where the poor woman lives or even what her name is.
> 
> I will follow up on this in due course it's just not a high priority for me right now.




It needs to be your top priority right now. Period.

Do you want to rug sweep like you did years ago and just have this happen again? Your goal right now isn't to save the marriage, it's to get out of infidelity.

She's probably already warned you that you're going to call. Every second that you wait is another second they will invent a backstory about this 'crazy husband'.

Then they will lie low for a period of time and then restart. Everyone who comes here likes to think that their situation is different but it's really not. 

This WILL happen if you don't expose. This WILL happen again with someone else if you don't assign consequences to action. You WILL have an astronomically higher chance of finding out the real story with her boyfriend's wife as a partner. You WILL be doing to moral thing and letting her know that she's living with a monster. 

The reason your wife was sick when you told her you'd contact his wife is because it would end the affair and you'd find out things she didn't want to tell you. She cares so much about keeping him that she, like most cheaters, feel they are the 'prize' and that she would seperate from you if you did that. The truth is she's damaged goods, it's an empty threat and YOU CANNOT AVOID EXPOSURE FOR ONE MORE SECOND.

And please do not even kind of hint that you're doing this. You'll also find out quickly if they're still in contact if she finds out without you telling her, so don't even tell her until then. It's a very good tool.


----------



## Malaise

cjadek said:


> She'd say things like. "I'm so sorry I've hurt you, he was never really in my life he was just a guy who fell in love with me and yes I know it's selfish I can't believe what I've done to you and our marriage all for a guy I just saw as a good friend, I've been so stupid, you are only man I love always have and always will. *I had the opportunity to be with him *when he told me he loved me but I said no I don't love you I love CJ and nothing will ever change that"


Is this accurate? 

This may be the case of her being honest for once. And lying about saying no?


----------



## dianaelaine59

cjadek said:


> I haven't told the OM's W as I haven't been bothered until now to research where the poor woman lives or even what her name is.
> 
> I will follow up on this in due course it's just not a high priority for me right now.




If the OM were MY husband, I'd want to know PRONTO that my husband has been secretly "in love" with another, for all those years!!!

How can you leave her out of this???? She deserves to know!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jld

I would consult a professional counselor if I were you, CJ. You are getting a lot of emotional feedback here on TAM. Combined with your own turbulent emotional state right now, that is unlikely to lead you to a healthy place.

Professional counseling, otoh, could be calming and clarifying.


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## Sparta

OP I know your Life is shattered and you're in pain, and you are experiencing tremendous amount of fear OK stop and breathe take care yourself make sure you eat drink water and try to get sleep. Go to your doctor if you need help with anxiety or sleep aid. You really need to take the advice these good people are giving you.! Everyone here is either going through our been through this Hell you are in right now. So they know your pain. *The sooner you start taking action like telling his wife* right now.! You will start feeling better about your situation the more positive action you take. If you have any questions that's what we're here for.! keep posting and we will help walk you through this nightmare. Take the suggestions that were given to you by the good people of TAM and Keep posting...!!!


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## VladDracul

cjadek said:


> She responds with something like "I told him I wasn't interested in anything but being his friend I told him I waited along time for you to come into my life and I would never do anything to harm that (sounds contradictory in the current context eh!). He said he can accept that but just wants to keep in contact just to know how I'm doing"


If you asked her, "did you sleep with him?" what was her response? If you haven't been this specific with your questions, do it and note her reaction. Your looking for an unequivocal, straight forward, and angry "no". Think about your response if your neighbor asked you if you stole his lawn mower.


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## arbitrator

Malaise said:


> Is this accurate?
> 
> This may be the case of her being honest for once. And lying about saying no?


*I'd equate this dialogue of hers to being little more than just plain old "trickle-truthing!"

Truth be told, I'd absolutely love to have been a gnat on the wall to have heard the actual dialogue of what she told this POSOM of hers and the resultant, deceptive laughter that it evoked from the both of them!*


----------



## alexm

cjadek said:


> Thanks all for your thoughtful and thought provoking replies, I've learnt allot about my situation and myself and how I plan to proceed.
> 
> I'm getting my W to write a timeline of the EA and encourage her to leave nothing out, obviously dates will be sketchy given the timeline but the interactions won't be whatever they were (PA).
> 
> Then I'm going to hit her with a poly to prove that timeline isn't more lies and half truths anything but full, frank and total honesty will be terminal for our marriage.
> 
> Anyway thanks to you all I am now much more comfortable with whatever and however this turns out. I read the 180 and have implement my version of it, I call it the 135. I woke up this morning full of purpose because no matter what happens I am awesome and I'll be just fine with or without her.
> 
> The more she's talked about it the more I'm being swaying by fact my W's father died in her mid teens which totally rocked her world as he was her world, and she viewed OM as a sympathetic father figure (he is 12-15 years older) who listened intently and told her the nice things she wanted to hear, things a Dad might say. Please comment on this as my bull**** filter is clearly not functioning 100%. The email trail from both of my discoveries align with this.
> 
> She has been at painful lengths to say there has been and never ever was any PA. Too me there is a possibility there was before we were married. She is convincing, but pathological liers are aren't they!!
> 
> The bottom line is I gave my W a 2nd chance when many wouldn't have and she slammed that goodwill/trust (some say naivety) back into my face then lied to my face to cover up detail.


I, for one, think you're doing the right thing. Your reactions may have started out a little rocky, but that's hard to prevent.

None of us, including you, can say for sure whether she had a PA with this man, but I simply don't see the signs. I think, at worst, they may have been physical before she met you. From what you've read (which is obviously not all of their interactions over these years, granted) you haven't seen anything that points to romantic love on her part, let alone anything sexual.

I stand by what I said in my previous post on page 1 - that she is fully aware of HIS feelings towards her, however she does not feel the same about him. She MAY have tried to go that route with him prior to her relationship with you, but that's neither her nor there, IMO.

That said - she should not still be in contact with him, constant or otherwise. But not because he's any type of threat to your marriage. More because this is entirely disrespectful to you, your feelings, and the marriage as a whole.

There are people out there who can maintain friendships with exes, or are comfortable with their partners doing so. However, in the vast majority of those cases, neither ex views the person in a romantic way. This guy does.

That alone should be enough for your wife to have put a stop to this years ago.


----------



## Robbie1234

jld said:


> I would consult a professional counselor if I were you, CJ. You are getting a lot of emotional feedback here on TAM. Combined with your own turbulent emotional state right now, that is unlikely to lead you to a healthy place.
> 
> Professional counseling, otoh, could be calming and clarifying.


Of course he is getting emotional feedback it is an emotional problem,he doesn't trust her.What would you suggest?


----------



## Diana7

dianaelaine59 said:


> If the OM were MY husband, I'd want to know PRONTO that my husband has been secretly "in love" with another, for all those years!!!
> 
> How can you leave her out of this???? She deserves to know!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 if she was me I would definitely want to know.


----------



## Diana7

Asking her to write a time line isnt going to help. You cant possible know if she is telling the truth. Cheaters always lie until you present them with proof.


----------



## cjadek

Diana7 said:


> Asking her to write a time line isnt going to help. You cant possible know if she is telling the truth. Cheaters always lie until you present them with proof.


I guess all I can do is apply the blow-torch and follow that with the Poly and see what comes out of the wood work.

I have managed to at least find the OMs W on facebook (she looks lovely) and I know where she works and where they live.
I will phone her at work as phoning the home number may see OM answering the phone. I haven't been able to find email address. 

I'm hoping that she will collaborate with me and stealth into OMs email and get all correspondence, lock stock and barrel.


----------



## cjadek

VladDracul said:


> If you asked her, "did you sleep with him?" what was her response? If you haven't been this specific with your questions, do it and note her reaction. Your looking for an unequivocal, straight forward, and angry "no". Think about your response if your neighbor asked you if you stole his lawn mower.


"No I f**king have not (angry and resilient tone) I have never thought of him in that way"


----------



## cjadek

alexm said:


> I think, at worst, they may have been physical before she met you. From what you've read (which is obviously not all of their interactions over these years, granted) you haven't seen anything that points to romantic love on her part, let alone anything sexual.


Just to be clear, they met after we started living together but before we were married.


----------



## Diana7

cjadek said:


> I guess all I can do is apply the blow-torch and follow that with the Poly and see what comes out of the wood work.
> 
> I have managed to at least find the OMs W on facebook (she looks lovely) and I know where she works and where they live.
> I will phone her at work as phoning the home number may see OM answering the phone. I haven't been able to find email address.
> 
> I'm hoping that she will collaborate with me and stealth into OMs email and get all correspondence, lock stock and barrel.


 Have you mentioned the polygraph to your wife? Does she know that you are going to phone the OM's wife? If she does she has probably warned him.


----------



## Graywolf2

cjadek said:


> I have managed to at least find the OMs W on facebook (she looks lovely) and I know where she works and where they live.
> I will phone her at work as phoning the home number may see OM answering the phone.


Do not tell your wife that you’re going to contact the OMW. If you do your wife will warn him and the OM will tell his wife that some crazy man might contact her.

Introduce yourself. Give your name and contact information and tell her to feel free to contact you anytime. Have your proof ready. Dates are really good if you have them. If your wife was gone on a certain night she can see if her husband was gone on the same night.


----------



## TDSC60

I keep coming back to the "Trust me or we should separate" statement. 

Is she continuing to say this? It is not uncommon for a wife in an affair (EA or PA) with another man to ask for a separation.


----------



## eric1

If your wife works then you want to expose on the weekend. Just download a free calling app on your phone and call from this temporary number. 

The reason you can use Sunday to your advantage is you can also monitor your wife . If her behavior changes you know they have a backchannel way of communicating. With her at work you'll unfortunately never know since you will assume he called her at work


----------



## Andy1001

cjadek said:


> "No I f**king have not (angry and resilient tone) I have never thought of him in that way"


I would have called her out on this straight away.It is her that is cheating,she doesn't get to be angry with you.How the hell does she expect you to believe a word she says after lying for FIFTEEN years.


----------



## Graywolf2

TDSC60 said:


> I keep coming back to the "Trust me or we should separate" statement.
> 
> Is she continuing to say this? It is not uncommon for a wife in an affair (EA or PA) with another man to ask for a separation.


Yes, either option is a win for someone having an affair.


----------



## eric1

It's called a bluff. Call it.


----------



## Chaparral

cjadek said:


> While they may well have had sex I haven't seen any clues/hint to this end in any of there correspondence not one suggestive comment or innuendo. Between the 2 times I've 'caught them' I've read quite a few pages of dialogue. I would've thought I'd have seen even hint if that were the case. (This doesn't mean I'm convinced they didn't)


That wouldn't be unusual in a long term affair. Most married people don't discuss their sex adventures like that either.

What was her attitude toward moving to your home country and leaving your old home behind? Have you been back? How often?


----------



## VladDracul

cjadek said:


> "No I f**king have not (angry and resilient tone) I have never thought of him in that way"


I'm going to be the contrarian to most others. A truthful person will give a straight forward no. Based on your report, she done that (albeit I'm not crazy about the second sentence although its understandable). I'm going out on a limb and betting the poly shows she's telling the truth about sleeping with him.

Something you may want to read:

Spot Liars by Paying Attention to Their Reaction Within the First Five Seconds of a Conversation

Guide To Detecting Deceit and Evaluating Honesty


----------



## Diana7

VladDracul said:


> I'm going to be the contrarian to most others. A truthful person will give a straight forward no. I'm going out on a limb and betting the poly shows she's telling the truth about sleeping with him.
> 
> Something you may want to read:
> 
> Spot Liars by Paying Attention to Their Reaction Within the First Five Seconds of a Conversation
> 
> Guide To Detecting Deceit and Evaluating Honesty


 Even if she didn't actually have sex, there may have been other physical/sexual contact and there was certainly an inappropriate relationship with 15 years of lies and deception. The fact that he clearly is in love with her surely should have got her ending it.


----------



## sokillme

Diana7 said:


> Even if she didn't actually have sex, there may have been other physical/sexual contact and there was certainly an inappropriate relationship with 15 years of lies and deception. The fact that he clearly is in love with her surely should have got her ending it.


This is my feeling. Even if it's the best case scenario and it was just this man telling her he loves her for 15 years. What kind of person is she that she is married and needs that. What will happen when she doesn't have that, she seems the most susceptible to any kind of affair. Like someone who has the worst of addiction problems. The kind that goes from smoking weed to crack in 6 months. She has some serious emotional problems, and is a great risk to continue with. 

OP has already had a 15 year marriage with another man in the middle of it. How much of her emotional energy was spent on this man, how much of her receptiveness to OP's love was tampered by her getting her fill from this guy. She has never been fully attentive to OP and as her husband that is great loss he was cheated out of. 15 years of having a truly faithful wife as he sole partner and he hers. Why invest more. There is better out there. Much better, I mean all the new partner would have to do is not waste hours on a older man sending love emails. That shouldn't be hard to find. Like once again we are talking the bare minimum.


----------



## VladDracul

I may be wrong Diana. Best case she's been playing loose as a goose allowing this guy to tag along. Some folks like having an opposite sex fan club fawning over them. I suggested early on that a poly would give CJ more to hang his hat on.


----------



## eric1

It doesn't matter if it went physical at this point. You guys will just confuse him.

Step 1 is always to get yourself out of infidelity. And he hasn't. Exposure, monitoring of all electronics, speaking with a lawyer in the event he needs to immediately protect himself legally, seeking professional help.

Once he's out of infidelity he can take a breath, obtain any info he may need....and truthfully electronic monitoring from step 1 and exposure will have likely brought him a ton of valid info.

He needs to expose now now now. I can't tell you how many times I've had this same discussion and the ONLY ones who fail are the ones who delay. He needs to be on the phone with this woman today.


----------



## alexm

cjadek said:


> Just to be clear, they met after we started living together but before we were married.


Ah, okay.

I still stand by my thoughts, although I suppose it's possible she did carry on a brief physical affair at that point.

It just doesn't seem to me that she did, given what you've told us.

Once you moved far away from him, it likely would have ended entirely OR there would be occasional mention of their previous tryst.


----------



## Malaise

TDSC60;17352049[B said:


> [B*]]I keep coming back to the "Trust me or we should separate" statement*.
> 
> [/B[/B]]Is she continuing to say this? It is not uncommon for a wife in an affair (EA or PA) with another man to ask for a separation.


Because she's always been a trustworthy person


----------



## TDSC60

EA or PA? There has always been three people in your marriage. Unfortunately, you did not know or agree to that arrangement. You have to accept that your wife could not be in a marriage with only you, then decide what YOU want. Decide what is best for YOU alone at this point. She made the decision about what she wanted long ago and just did not tell you and actively kept you in the dark about facts that were very important to your marriage.


----------



## cjadek

TDSC60 said:


> I keep coming back to the "Trust me or we should separate" statement.
> 
> Is she continuing to say this? It is not uncommon for a wife in an affair (EA or PA) with another man to ask for a separation.


No she hasn't it was a knee jerk response but a response non the less.


----------



## Malaise

cjadek said:


> No she hasn't it was a knee jerk response but a response non the less.


It was an attempt to shut you up and control the narrative.


----------



## cjadek

alexm said:


> Ah, okay.
> 
> I still stand by my thoughts, although I suppose it's possible she did carry on a brief physical affair at that point.
> 
> It just doesn't seem to me that she did, given what you've told us.
> 
> Once you moved far away from him, it likely would have ended entirely OR there would be occasional mention of their previous tryst.


Just to add some more context.
When I first discovered the relationship she said she would never have any contact with OM again and I'm pretty sure she didn't until OM bumped into Ws cousin, he asked Ws cousin to ask W to contact him just to let him know she was OK. 
She obviously did that (at that point in time she broke her no more contact promise) and the EA started up again and they meet for lunch not long before we left the country. The time between these events was 3 years.
Once we had moved countries 18 months went by before any further contact, it was a few emails and a phone call. Then another year went by then a few emails and a phone call.
My W has had trouble settling into our new life as she is away from her family and was using him as sympathetic ear, to be fair OM was saying that's like "you owe it to yourself, your husband and family to accept where you are and to be happy". Which is good advice from a friend albeit an inappropriate one that shouldn't have been around to give said advice.


----------



## Andy1001

Malaise said:


> It was an attempt to shut you up and control the narrative.


And it worked,he is rug sweeping at an Olympic level.She shows him some edited texts and he is lapping them up like a man lost in the desert who is given a can of coke.I think he will be back here in a few years with the same story.


----------



## cjadek

I'm certain there has been no further contact between W and OM since I rediscovered the EA.
1. I'm an IT pro and have pretty much everything covered from email, whatsapp, viber etc even with deleted messages.
2. W and OM are IT numpties (my wife isn't aware of recycle bin in her email for example)
3. I control both the home phone and her mobile phone bills so I have real time data.
4. I have iCloud backing up her phone daily so can see app chat data even deleted messages.

The time zones between where we live now and where OM lives is typically 12 hours so it really would be difficult for them talk. Previous phone call were carefully planned via email so OMs W and myself weren't about and there is only a small window in the morning and at night that those phone calls are possible.

We haven't been back to visit since we left but are planning a trip later this year. Unfortunately OM and W had planned to catch up for lunch during that trip.

Not sure where I'm going with this just giving more info.

Thanks to all for your input even the stuff I don't want to hear!!!! I am reading every post even though I may not be responding to every question.


----------



## cjadek

Andy1001 said:


> And it worked,he is rug sweeping at an Olympic level.She shows him some edited texts and he is lapping them up like a man lost in the desert who is given a can of coke.I think he will be back here in a few years with the same story.


An attempt it may be but I am certainly not lapping it up on the contrary, nothing is being swept. I am now strong and have clarity (in no small part due to the advice and caring from this forum).

My favorite quote is. "cheat me once shame on you, cheat me twice shame on me"


----------



## cjadek

I'm also looking for some advice on how approach OMs W.
It will be a phone call to her place of work.

My current thinking is I will start off with something like "This is CJ (then spell my surname) my email address is [email protected] (my real email is very easy to remember) could you please write that down.
What I'm aiming for here is if she has a adverse response (which is highly likely) and hangs up then calms down later she will have a way of contacting me.

Then I'm going to say I have an disputable and undeniable email trail that proves your H and my W have been having, at best case, an EA on and off for the last 14 years and I'm happy to send her that email trail.

I want to convince her stay calm and not approach her H but to work with me to find more correspondence. If she can get access to her Hs email she could possibly get 95% of it.

This email trail will be harder for her to read than it has been for me as her H has been persistently declaring undying love for my W and my W has not once reciprocated feelings of love. (I differentiate "I love you" and "lots of love").

Any and all suggestions welcome.
CJ


----------



## cjadek

Forgot to mention I'm seeing an IC today and we have a MC session booked for tomorrow.

Does anyone think having the same person doing IC and MC is a conflict of interest?


----------



## eric1

cjadek said:


> I'm also looking for some advice on how approach OMs W.
> 
> It will be a phone call to her place of work.
> 
> 
> 
> My current thinking is I will start off with something like "This is CJ (then spell my surname) my email address is [email protected] (my real email is very easy to remember) could you please write that down.
> 
> What I'm aiming for here is if she has a adverse response (which is highly likely) and hangs up then calms down later she will have a way of contacting me.
> 
> 
> 
> Then I'm going to say I have an disputable and undeniable email trail that proves your H and my W have been having, at best case, an EA on and off for the last 14 years and I'm happy to send her that email trail.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to convince her stay calm and not approach her H but to work with me to find more correspondence. If she can get access to her Hs email she could possibly get 95% of it.
> 
> 
> 
> This email trail will be harder for her to read than it has been for me as her H has been persistently declaring undying love for my W and my W has not once reciprocated feelings of love. (I differentiate "I love you" and "lots of love").
> 
> 
> 
> Any and all suggestions welcome.
> 
> CJ




This is EXACTLY how you do it. Keep it short and sweet. It's going to be a very hard thing to do but you are a good man for doing this for her (and a brave one to be doing all of the right things in your own marriage at this point).


----------



## eric1

cjadek said:


> Forgot to mention I'm seeing an IC today and we have a MC session booked for tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone think having the same person doing IC and MC is a conflict of interest?




Not necessarily - if you have the right one then no.

However, while this isn't a hard rule, MC can be frustrating at this point. She can lie to MC as well as she can to you. The recommended path is IC then MC. Again, this isn't a hard and fast rule like 'you must expose asap', this depends a lot on the people and the situation.

While there isn't a conflict it's also not a bad idea to taste test more than one. A bad counselor can do significant harm


----------



## Diana7

Keep it short and to the point. If she knows nothing about this it will clearly upset her, especially the parts where her husband declared love for your wife.
I believe that you have told your wife of your intentions to tell his wife, if so she may have warned him and he may have told her anyway.


----------



## heartbroken50

cjadek said:


> Forgot to mention I'm seeing an IC today and we have a MC session booked for tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone think having the same person doing IC and MC is a conflict of interest?




My H and I had the same provider for IC and MC. I fired him as IC since I found he was trying to be too friendly and easy on our issues. I actually walked out of MC and told him to F off  my H quit IC after that.

Didn't work so well for us, lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dianaelaine59

cjadek said:


> Just to add some more context.
> 
> When I first discovered the relationship she said she would never have any contact with OM again and I'm pretty sure she didn't until OM bumped into Ws cousin, he asked Ws cousin to ask W to contact him just to let him know she was OK.
> 
> She obviously did that (at that point in time she broke her no more contact promise) and the EA started up again and they meet for lunch not long before we left the country. The time between these events was 3 years.
> 
> Once we had moved countries 18 months went by before any further contact, it was a few emails and a phone call. Then another year went by then a few emails and a phone call.
> 
> My W has had trouble settling into our new life as she is away from her family and was using him as sympathetic ear, to be fair OM was saying that's like "you owe it to yourself, your husband and family to accept where you are and to be happy". Which is good advice from a friend albeit an inappropriate one that shouldn't have been around to give said advice.




Ummmm yes but .... if my husband tells me to stop talking to someone because it upsets him, and because this man told me he loved me, that would be it, I would stop immediately. 

Immediately, and would never respond to any correspondence from him ever again. PERIOD!!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## cjadek

Diana7 said:


> Keep it short and to the point. If she knows nothing about this it will clearly upset her, especially the parts where her husband declared love for your wife.
> I believe that you have told your wife of your intentions to tell his wife, if so she may have warned him and he may have told her anyway.


I did say to W that I was going to inform OMs W but haven't mentioned it since and allot of water has passed under the bridge since then so I don't think it's even on her radar, plus I said I'd need her help as I don't where to start looking. Once I realised that I screwed up telling her that I taken it under ground which is what I should've done in the first place.

Secondly W is extremely unlikely to have contacted OM about this or anything else. A month ago she wrote him an email that I was apart of to OM outlining how much their correspondence had hurt me and jeopardized our M and she would never be in touch again and asked him to respect hers/ours wishes.
I am checking daily for any sign of comms and as expected nothing to date so highly improbable.

I did screw up though, I sent OM an email the day after Ws email outlining what I thought of him a married man constantly declaring undying love for my W and how would he think his family would feel reading the email trail. I did however say this as a question as opposed to a threat. The worst case here is he's gone and covered his tracks (deleted all emails from W) which wouldn't be great but not terminal as I still have the last 2 years worth safely storage in cloud. I certainly doubt he would've confess to his wife based on my email as it was non threatening just my feelings.

On a different note while researching OMW I did discover that OM and OMW were married early in 2013 (just a few weeks before we moved countries and close to time they meet for lunch) and as they have 2 adult children and W said he was already married but it wasn't a happy marriage I'm guessing this was a vow renewal, I guess that proves he was either feeding my W lies about the state of his marriage or he's a complete ****wit renewing his vows all the while actively declaring his love for my W at every opportunity. I've got a photo of OM and OMW on the day (from facebook) they renewed their vows smiling away, I'm going to swipe that smile of his smug face:laugh: I was originally going to show my W the photo to show her the human face of the other victim a real human, but I've pulled my head in as that would alert her to the fact that I'm actually going to contact OMW. (See I'm learning!!!)


----------



## cjadek

dianaelaine59 said:


> Ummmm yes but .... if my husband tells me to stop talking to someone because it upsets him, and because this man told me he loved me, that would be it, I would stop immediately.
> 
> Immediately, and would never respond to any correspondence from him ever again. PERIOD!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


And this my friends is where I have the biggest problem. Not only did she not stop interactions with OM as soon as he declared his love, she took the 2nd chance I gave her and slapped me between the eyes with it and it's that I may never get over.


----------



## cjadek

heartbroken50 said:


> My H and I had the same provider for IC and MC. I fired him as IC since I found he was trying to be too friendly and easy on our issues. I actually walked out of MC and told him to F off  my H quit IC after that.
> 
> Didn't work so well for us, lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will keep that firmly in mind in my IC session today. If he is to be effective in MC he needs to listen and understand my position as sugar coating this won't be acceptable.


----------



## VladDracul

cjadek said:


> "This is CJ (then spell my surname) my email address is [email protected] (my real email is very easy to remember) could you please write that down.
> What I'm aiming for here is if she has a adverse response (which is highly likely) and hangs up then calms down later she will have a way of contacting me.
> CJ


To me, that's a little bit too much sugar for a quarter. If you received a call from an unknown party asking that you write down their email in the first five seconds of the call, what would you do? 
I'd be straight forward and tell her your calling her to seek her advice on a friendship that has gone on between her husband and your wife for the last 15 years that been too close for comfort for your taste. If she hangs up, call back in a couple of days.


----------



## Mizzbak

Hi @cjadek – You asked for more details on the polygraph, so I’ve tried to share the more personal aspects about what I learned from/about it. If you want to know anything else of a more practical nature, please just ask... 

The polygraph isn’t a magic bullet. It's important to understand what it will and won't give you. Even if the polygraph supports your wife's story, you're probably not suddenly going to feel better. (Being able to put a line around the hurt doesn’t take it away.) You'll read that polygraphs are not admissible in court, easy to manipulate etc. Here's the thing. When I first understood what my husband's affair meant, I felt like all the trust that I had in him was gone. He told me that he was sorry, that he wanted to do whatever he could to fix the damage that he'd done. But to me, those were just empty words. I was flailing around in this quicksand of doubt. The polygraph became a large log that I could use to give me the leverage that I needed to get out. I didn't know (still don’t) whether the polygraph result was entirely reliable, but it gave me something better than what I had. And I could build on that.

Why it helped me…
The biggest reason why I got some peace of mind from the process? For my husband to go through it was incredibly intrusive and humiliating for him – he’s a very private person. To discuss, in detail, the affair and exactly what he had shared with this other woman, with a complete stranger? Not a therapist who was on his side, but a stranger whose job it was to tell whether he was lying? It brought home to him the extent of the damage that his actions had caused to our relationship. That I would no longer take his word. I didn't try and hide it. And I didn't try to justify it. It was simple cause and effect. So for him to do this thing willingly was a huge deal for me. 
The second reason came from the examiner himself. I found an examiner who is much older and pretty experienced. Before the test, he and I had several conversations about my situation and what I needed to know. He talked me through what I could ask and what I wouldn't be able to confirm. After the exam, when he said that in his professional opinion, my husband was telling the truth regarding his affair, I felt supported in my desire to begin believing in my husband again. If a completely objective outsider, with no vested interest in the outcome, and a fair amount of experience and training in lie detection, was comfortable that my husband was telling the truth, then couldn’t I at least be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt? 

What the polygraph can tell you…
Polygraphs can only be used to confirm objective facts. Questions with “yes” or “no” answers. Things like- was there inappropriate physical contact between your wife and her affair partner? (You will have defined for the examiner what you mean by “inappropriate” and he/she will discuss that with your wife to make sure that you're all on the same page.) Did they have regular or very intermittent contact during your marriage? How long have they recently been in contact? Etc. 
You won’t be able to use it to confirm subjective things like your wife’s feelings for this man. Or even her feelings for you. You need to think about what it is you want to know. If you’re asking your wife to confirm the timeline that you’ve asked for, then asking “Did you leave anything out?” is not going to cut it. Of course she left something out. Very few of us have perfect recall of the last week, never mind the past 15 years. So you’ll need to decide on substantive matters of fact to check on. 

Regarding finding the examiner – I googled polygraph+infidelity+(my home town) and picked a couple of possibilities. See who gets back to you when you tell them why you want the test. Then ask them questions. I chose the two examiners who showed an awareness of what the polygraph could do to my relationship (and not just for it). Who were willing to engage with me, rather than just send me a quote. (I was asked to confirm that I had my husband’s agreement up front by both of them.) 

I am concerned by the advice that you’re being given here to try and test your wife by suddenly springing the polygraph on her after she has done the timeline and given it to you. She has hurt you terribly already. Do you really think that trying to catch her lying or “trickle truthing” is helpful here? You don’t need to play games. Ask her for the timeline and then tell her that you’ll be asking her to take a polygraph once she gives it to you. (If that is what you end up choosing to do.) The examiner doesn't spring the questions on the subject - they know beforehand what they are going to get asked. You don't want your wife to fail. You are wanting to confirm that she has told you the truth as far as she is able. You’re asking her for the truth and then you’re asking her to further support that truth. Believe me, I completely get your anger, but please treat her with respect and dignity. If you don’t, then you’re allowing her actions to change you into someone that you’re not, and if you are serious about considering reconciliation, it potentially undermines that as well. Believe me when I say that hurting the person you love (even if they hurt you first) doesn't make you feel any better. Just hurts you again - sucks, but there it is.

Basically, if I had to choose all over again whether to go ahead with the polygraph or not, I’d do it. I hope that helps.
Strength and thoughts with you.


----------



## cjadek

VladDracul said:


> To me, that's a little bit too much sugar for a quarter. If you received a call from an unknown party asking that you write down their email in the first five seconds of the call, what would you do?
> I'd be straight forward and tell her your calling her to seek her advice on a friendship that has gone on between her husband and your wife for the last 15 years that been too close for comfort for your taste. If she hangs up, call back in a couple of days.


I like it. I think she's unlikely to hang up immediately after that as her curiosity will be too strong not to hear the next few words at the very least.
Anyone else concur with this?


----------



## cjadek

Mizzbak said:


> Hi @cjadek – You asked for more details on the polygraph, so I’ve tried to share the more personal aspects about what I learned from/about it. If you want to know anything else of a more practical nature, please just ask...
> 
> The polygraph isn’t a magic bullet. It's important to understand what it will and won't give you. Even if the polygraph supports your wife's story, you're probably not suddenly going to feel better. (Being able to put a line around the hurt doesn’t take it away.) You'll read that polygraphs are not admissible in court, easy to manipulate etc. Here's the thing. When I first understood what my husband's affair meant, I felt like all the trust that I had in him was gone. He told me that he was sorry, that he wanted to do whatever he could to fix the damage that he'd done. But to me, those were just empty words. I was flailing around in this quicksand of doubt. The polygraph became a large log that I could use to give me the leverage that I needed to get out. I didn't know (still don’t) whether the polygraph result was entirely reliable, but it gave me something better than what I had. And I could build on that.
> 
> Why it helped me…
> The biggest reason why I got some peace of mind from the process? For my husband to go through it was incredibly intrusive and humiliating for him – he’s a very private person. To discuss, in detail, the affair and exactly what he had shared with this other woman, with a complete stranger? Not a therapist who was on his side, but a stranger whose job it was to tell whether he was lying? It brought home to him the extent of the damage that his actions had caused to our relationship. That I would no longer take his word. I didn't try and hide it. And I didn't try to justify it. It was simple cause and effect. So for him to do this thing willingly was a huge deal for me.
> The second reason came from the examiner himself. I found an examiner who is much older and pretty experienced. Before the test, he and I had several conversations about my situation and what I needed to know. He talked me through what I could ask and what I wouldn't be able to confirm. After the exam, when he said that in his professional opinion, my husband was telling the truth regarding his affair, I felt supported in my desire to begin believing in my husband again. If a completely objective outsider, with no vested interest in the outcome, and a fair amount of experience and training in lie detection, was comfortable that my husband was telling the truth, then couldn’t I at least be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt?
> 
> What the polygraph can tell you…
> Polygraphs can only be used to confirm objective facts. Questions with “yes” or “no” answers. Things like- was there inappropriate physical contact between your wife and her affair partner? (You will have defined for the examiner what you mean by “inappropriate” and he/she will discuss that with your wife to make sure that you're all on the same page.) Did they have regular or very intermittent contact during your marriage? How long have they recently been in contact? Etc.
> You won’t be able to use it to confirm subjective things like your wife’s feelings for this man. Or even her feelings for you. You need to think about what it is you want to know. If you’re asking your wife to confirm the timeline that you’ve asked for, then asking “Did you leave anything out?” is not going to cut it. Of course she left something out. Very few of us have perfect recall of the last week, never mind the past 15 years. So you’ll need to decide on substantive matters of fact to check on.
> 
> Regarding finding the examiner – I googled polygraph+infidelity+(my home town) and picked a couple of possibilities. See who gets back to you when you tell them why you want the test. Then ask them questions. I chose the two examiners who showed an awareness of what the polygraph could do to my relationship (and not just for it). Who were willing to engage with me, rather than just send me a quote. (I was asked to confirm that I had my husband’s agreement up front by both of them.)
> 
> I am concerned by the advice that you’re being given here to try and test your wife by suddenly springing the polygraph on her after she has done the timeline and given it to you. She has hurt you terribly already. Do you really think that trying to catch her lying or “trickle truthing” is helpful here? You don’t need to play games. Ask her for the timeline and then tell her that you’ll be asking her to take a polygraph once she gives it to you. (If that is what you end up choosing to do.) The examiner doesn't spring the questions on the subject - they know beforehand what they are going to get asked. You don't want your wife to fail. You are wanting to confirm that she has told you the truth as far as she is able. You’re asking her for the truth and then you’re asking her to further support that truth. Believe me, I completely get your anger, but please treat her with respect and dignity. If you don’t, then you’re allowing her actions to change you into someone that you’re not, and if you are serious about considering reconciliation, it potentially undermines that as well. Believe me when I say that hurting the person you love (even if they hurt you first) doesn't make you feel any better. Just hurts you again - sucks, but there it is.
> 
> Basically, if I had to choose all over again whether to go ahead with the polygraph or not, I’d do it. I hope that helps.
> Strength and thoughts with you.


Thank you so much for taking the time to detail your thoughts to a complete stranger I assure you they are very much appreciated.


----------



## Andy1001

The original polygraphs worked on electrical resistance and variance.The idea behind it was that if a person was lying they would sweat more and their body temperature would rise thus lowering the electrical resistance of their skin.This is the reason why an electric shock is more dangerous if you are wet or standing in water.The modern ones are a bit more complex,using EEG and MRI in certain circumstances.The problem with them is if your wife has herself convinced that she has done nothing wrong then the polygraph is useless.And the biggest problem is if someone can get themselves worked up about something they can fool the test.There is not a court in the land that will accept them.You may get what's called the parking lot confession but that's it.


----------



## aine

cjadek said:


> I'm also looking for some advice on how approach OMs W.
> It will be a phone call to her place of work.
> 
> My current thinking is I will start off with something like "This is CJ (then spell my surname) my email address is [email protected] (my real email is very easy to remember) could you please write that down.
> What I'm aiming for here is if she has a adverse response (which is highly likely) and hangs up then calms down later she will have a way of contacting me.
> 
> Then I'm going to say I have an disputable and undeniable email trail that proves your H and my W have been having, at best case, an EA on and off for the last 14 years and I'm happy to send her that email trail.
> 
> I want to convince her stay calm and not approach her H but to work with me to find more correspondence. If she can get access to her Hs email she could possibly get 95% of it.
> 
> This email trail will be harder for her to read than it has been for me as her H has been persistently declaring undying love for my W and my W has not once reciprocated feelings of love. (I differentiate "I love you" and "lots of love").
> 
> Any and all suggestions welcome.
> CJ



Yes, agreed, his wife really needs to know what her WH has been up to behind her back.


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## dianaelaine59

When calling the wife ... straight to the point, who you are, who your wife is, and what her husband has been doing. 

No, I wouldn't tell her to write your number down in the beginning of the conversation. 

"Sitting here with foot tapping ... waiting for you to call his wife."




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mizzbak

Andy1001 said:


> The original polygraphs worked on electrical resistance and variance.The idea behind it was that if a person was lying they would sweat more and their body temperature would rise thus lowering the electrical resistance of their skin.This is the reason why an electric shock is more dangerous if you are wet or standing in water.The modern ones are a bit more complex,using EEG and MRI in certain circumstances.The problem with them is if your wife has herself convinced that she has done nothing wrong then the polygraph is useless.And the biggest problem is if someone can get themselves worked up about something they can fool the test.There is not a court in the land that will accept them.You may get what's called the parking lot confession but that's it.


 @Andy1001 - have you has any personal experience with polygraphs? I get that they wouldn't be acceptable in a criminal court for a guilty finding because of the possibility of a false positive result ("reasonable doubt" and all that.) But I do know that they're used extensively in the financial services industry and other commercial environments. (Legally in my country, they can be used under specific circumstances in labour-related disputes - not as a basis for a finding of guilt on their own, but can be used in support of other evidence.)

After the reading that I did, I was pretty comfortable that, unless he was trained in countermeasures, my husband wouldn't be able to fool the test entirely. As I have known him for quite some time, I was reasonably comfortable that he wasn't trained in countermeasures. The examiner and I spoke for quite some time about what happens under stress, because I was concerned about the possibility of a false positive. I was satisfied that it was more likely that there would be an undetermined finding if my husband's stress was very great. The examiner was very willing to address my concerns and questions. (FWIW as a measure of my gullibility, if I had to define my "belief" in the technique as it was used in my context on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 7. Astrology is a 0. Water dowsing is a 2 - only because I've watched it be successful on more than one occasion - which I ascribed more to the dowser's ability to read the land than anything else.) 

As I said, I was also willing to rely on the examiner's opinion as a result of his professional experience and exposure to this type of situation many times before - as a more objective opinion holder with no vested interest. I'm not really wanting to get into a discussion about whether polygraphs are (always) accurate or not, but am simply sharing that in my specific circumstance, I found one useful.


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## eric1

Remember to not let your wife know even after. If she's angry with you you'll know NC was broken. If she's angry with you for taking your healing into your own hands, you'll have a wife who is NOT remorseful.

It's an important benchmark


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## sokillme

cjadek said:


> Forgot to mention I'm seeing an IC today and we have a MC session booked for tomorrow.
> 
> Does anyone think having the same person doing IC and MC is a conflict of interest?


Yes this is always thought to be not a good idea. Also your wife probably isn't even ready for MC because she hasn't even dealt with her EA yet. If you can't go to MC make sure they don't rug sweep as many of them do. You are not responsible for your wife's EA, and it is way too early to get over it. However this may be what you hear. If you do I would get up and walk out.


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## sokillme

cjadek said:


> I did say to W that I was going to inform OMs W but haven't mentioned it since and allot of water has passed under the bridge since then so I don't think it's even on her radar, plus I said I'd need her help as I don't where to start looking. Once I realised that I screwed up telling her that I taken it under ground which is what I should've done in the first place.
> 
> Secondly W is extremely unlikely to have contacted OM about this or anything else. A month ago she wrote him an email that I was apart of to OM outlining how much their correspondence had hurt me and jeopardized our M and she would never be in touch again and asked him to respect hers/ours wishes.
> I am checking daily for any sign of comms and as expected nothing to date so highly improbable.
> 
> I did screw up though, I sent OM an email the day after Ws email outlining what I thought of him a married man constantly declaring undying love for my W and how would he think his family would feel reading the email trail. I did however say this as a question as opposed to a threat. The worst case here is he's gone and covered his tracks (deleted all emails from W) which wouldn't be great but not terminal as I still have the last 2 years worth safely storage in cloud. I certainly doubt he would've confess to his wife based on my email as it was non threatening just my feelings.
> 
> On a different note while researching OMW I did discover that OM and OMW were married early in 2013 (just a few weeks before we moved countries and close to time they meet for lunch) and as they have 2 adult children and W said he was already married but it wasn't a happy marriage I'm guessing this was a vow renewal, I guess that proves he was either feeding my W lies about the state of his marriage or he's a complete ****wit renewing his vows all the while actively declaring his love for my W at every opportunity. I've got a photo of OM and OMW on the day (from facebook) they renewed their vows smiling away, I'm going to swipe that smile of his smug face:laugh: I was originally going to show my W the photo to show her the human face of the other victim a real human, but I've pulled my head in as that would alert her to the fact that I'm actually going to contact OMW. (See I'm learning!!!)


Show her after.


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## sokillme

Mizzbak said:


> Hi @cjadekI am concerned by the advice that you’re being given here to try and test your wife by suddenly springing the polygraph on her after she has done the timeline and given it to you. She has hurt you terribly already. Do you really think that trying to catch her lying or “trickle truthing” is helpful here? You don’t need to play games. Ask her for the timeline and then tell her that you’ll be asking her to take a polygraph once she gives it to you. (If that is what you end up choosing to do.) The examiner doesn't spring the questions on the subject - they know beforehand what they are going to get asked. You don't want your wife to fail. You are wanting to confirm that she has told you the truth as far as she is able. You’re asking her for the truth and then you’re asking her to further support that truth. Believe me, I completely get your anger, but please treat her with respect and dignity. If you don’t, then you’re allowing her actions to change you into someone that you’re not, and if you are serious about considering reconciliation, it potentially undermines that as well. Believe me when I say that hurting the person you love (even if they hurt you first) doesn't make you feel any better. Just hurts you again - sucks, but there it is.


I agree with this. When I was little when I got spanked. I was basically made to go to my room and wait. Sometimes a hour. The fear of the spanking was always worse then the spanking itself. I think the fear of the polygraph is good leverage. However remember your still a guy who has to give his wife a polygraph because of all the lies she has told you. 

However if it is just as you say and she never told him she loved him back and never was truly physical with him then this seem different. It was really all about her ego, I doubt she even really cared for this man, she just wanted the platitudes. That creates a whole other set of questions though, what is the deal with your wife. She still has some major character issues.


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## cjadek

sokillme said:


> Yes this is always thought to be not a good idea. Also your wife probably isn't even ready for MC because she hasn't even dealt with her EA yet. If you can't go to MC make sure they don't rug sweep as many of them do. You are not responsible for your wife's EA, and it is way too early to get over it. However this may be what you hear. If you do I would get up and walk out.


I went to IC today and laid it down. I'm thinking about it more as mediation than IC at this point, I get my requirements down he listens and replays them to the W, I'm not there so it's cordial and candid.

I really challenged him on how he would go about getting me the confidence I need she that W is telling the truth given her propensity for telling lies about the EA. He was a little stunned how forthright about this I was. I asked him if he'd ever used a Polygraph as part of the process, he had.
I gave him my unprofessional opinion. "I just can't see how we're going to satisfy me sufficiently without the aid of technology"

When he talked about our MC session booked for tomorrow I told him sternly there is no M to C at this point in time. He agreed and tomorrows session is W only. Would love to be a fly on the wall as I hope he's not going sugar coat what I laid down


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## eric1

I agree with not springing the poly on her unannounced. The point is to get the truth, not get points for creativity.

In my experience it is the buildup and the parking lot confessions which bring out the most meat. 

Plus, you don't want her to fail the poly. If someone is rooting for a poly fail then just end the marriage imho


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## alexm

dianaelaine59 said:


> Ummmm yes but .... if my husband tells me to stop talking to someone because it upsets him, and because this man told me he loved me, that would be it, I would stop immediately.
> 
> Immediately, and would never respond to any correspondence from him ever again. PERIOD!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Most of us would, yes, but unfortunately, not everybody sees the world the same way.

Like I said previously, I had a girl who was into me while I was dating somebody else, and (at that time) I saw no real issue with it - because *I* wasn't interested. My GF at the time wasn't happy, naturally, but from my POV, there wasn't much I could do. I certainly know better now, but at the time, I quite literally thought nothing of it. As far as I was concerned, I had zero interest in this other girl, therefore she was no threat to me, my GF or our relationship. I probably said things like "don't you trust me?", etc.

In this case, OP's wife is getting something from all of this, but I do think it's purely friendship and that nothing really points to her having, or previously having, any romantic thoughts or feelings towards him. She has a connection to him, to be sure, but I don't think she sees it as anything threatening the marriage.

The sticking point to me (and everybody else) is that HE doesn't view her as 'just a friend', and that's not okay, and therefore she should have ended it based on that, many years ago, if not out of loyalty to the marriage. This is what OP needs to get through to her, yet she seems stubborn and likely feels attacked (particularly in regards to prior accusations of legit cheating).

If my GF back in the day accused me of cheating on her with the other girl who liked me, I would have reacted quite similarly, simply because I truly did have absolutely no interest in her in that way. But my inaction on the matter didn't help things, nor does OP's wife's inaction - and worse, breaking her no contact agreement.

None of this points to "affair", IMO - just a lack of respect for her husband, and quite possibly herself.

Surely she should know that this guy has other intentions, or at least hopes. That he's purposefully always said the 'right things', and has generated an intimate rapport with her for these reasons, and has held out hope for all these years that things will fall into place for him.

Most of us (but apparently not her) would have shut this 'friendship' down the instant he professed his love for her. I have female friends, some married, some not. If one of them professed their love to me - knowing full well that I am married - I would instantly lose respect for them, and the friendship would be over. Same if I were single, and a married woman said that to me. That speaks to the character of that person, and that's not a character trait I'm interested in. For that reason alone, OP's wife should have stopped this years ago, IMO.


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## dianaelaine59

alexm said:


> Most of us would, yes, but unfortunately, not everybody sees the world the same way.
> 
> Like I said previously, I had a girl who was into me while I was dating somebody else, and (at that time) I saw no real issue with it - because *I* wasn't interested. My GF at the time wasn't happy, naturally, but from my POV, there wasn't much I could do. I certainly know better now, but at the time, I quite literally thought nothing of it. As far as I was concerned, I had zero interest in this other girl, therefore she was no threat to me, my GF or our relationship. I probably said things like "don't you trust me?", etc.
> 
> In this case, OP's wife is getting something from all of this, but I do think it's purely friendship and that nothing really points to her having, or previously having, any romantic thoughts or feelings towards him. She has a connection to him, to be sure, but I don't think she sees it as anything threatening the marriage.
> 
> The sticking point to me (and everybody else) is that HE doesn't view her as 'just a friend', and that's not okay, and therefore she should have ended it based on that, many years ago, if not out of loyalty to the marriage. This is what OP needs to get through to her, yet she seems stubborn and likely feels attacked (particularly in regards to prior accusations of legit cheating).
> 
> If my GF back in the day accused me of cheating on her with the other girl who liked me, I would have reacted quite similarly, simply because I truly did have absolutely no interest in her in that way. But my inaction on the matter didn't help things, nor does OP's wife's inaction - and worse, breaking her no contact agreement.
> 
> None of this points to "affair", IMO - just a lack of respect for her husband, and quite possibly herself.
> 
> Surely she should know that this guy has other intentions, or at least hopes. That he's purposefully always said the 'right things', and has generated an intimate rapport with her for these reasons, and has held out hope for all these years that things will fall into place for him.
> 
> Most of us (but apparently not her) would have shut this 'friendship' down the instant he professed his love for her. I have female friends, some married, some not. If one of them professed their love to me - knowing full well that I am married - I would instantly lose respect for them, and the friendship would be over. Same if I were single, and a married woman said that to me. That speaks to the character of that person, and that's not a character trait I'm interested in. For that reason alone, OP's wife should have stopped this years ago, IMO.




I agree that it certainly shows bad very bad character from the OM. 

He's not shown respect for her marriage OR her husband, at all!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

dianaelaine59 said:


> I agree that it certainly shows bad very bad character from the OM.
> 
> He's not shown respect for her marriage OR her husband, at all!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nor did she by proxy.


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## manfromlamancha

I had asked this before but you may have missed it. Are you and your wife from the same country ? Is the OM from the same country too ? Would you mind saying what country that is ?


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## dianaelaine59

sokillme said:


> Nor did she by proxy.




Of course ... that goes without saying. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt

@cjadek It's not a second EA, it's the first EA, still continuing.

Right, you need to do several things, get tested for STDs and -if legal where you live- get the children's DNA tested.

Counselling? Yes, but not until she ceases her affair,


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## Andy1001

Mizzbak said:


> @Andy1001 - have you has any personal experience with polygraphs? I get that they wouldn't be acceptable in a criminal court for a guilty finding because of the possibility of a false positive result ("reasonable doubt" and all that.) But I do know that they're used extensively in the financial services industry and other commercial environments. (Legally in my country, they can be used under specific circumstances in labour-related disputes - not as a basis for a finding of guilt on their own, but can be used in support of other evidence.)
> 
> After the reading that I did, I was pretty comfortable that, unless he was trained in countermeasures, my husband wouldn't be able to fool the test entirely. As I have known him for quite some time, I was reasonably comfortable that he wasn't trained in countermeasures. The examiner and I spoke for quite some time about what happens under stress, because I was concerned about the possibility of a false positive. I was satisfied that it was more likely that there would be an undetermined finding if my husband's stress was very great. The examiner was very willing to address my concerns and questions. (FWIW as a measure of my gullibility, if I had to define my "belief" in the technique as it was used in my context on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 7. Astrology is a 0. Water dowsing is a 2 - only because I've watched it be successful on more than one occasion - which I ascribed more to the dowser's ability to read the land than anything else.)
> 
> As I said, I was also willing to rely on the examiner's opinion as a result of his professional experience and exposure to this type of situation many times before - as a more objective opinion holder with no vested interest. I'm not really wanting to get into a discussion about whether polygraphs are (always) accurate or not, but am simply sharing that in my specific circumstance, I found one useful.


I've built them as part of a training exercise but that was about fifteen years ago.Every person on that course was able to fool them within a few days.They are very advanced ones around now but they cost over a hundred grand and I am fairly sure I could still fool one.The biggest problem they have is if you are the type of person who can be seething with anger while remaining outwardly calm then the polygraph takes your angry mood as normal,when you calm down inside the sensors assume you are lying even if you are being asked a question that everyone knows you are answering honestly.I'm probably not explaining this very well but unless you have seen them being used it is hard to understand how they work.Also the tester may only allow three or four questions to be asked whereas if you ask a couple of hundred then certain patterns will emerge.
Some people are afraid of them and will confess before being tested,this is called the parking lot confession but the way I look at it is if you feel you need a lie detector to prove your wife/husband/partner is being honest then it's probably time to split up anyway.


----------



## naiveonedave

MattMatt said:


> @cjadek It's not a second EA, it's the first EA, still continuing.
> 
> Right, you need to do several things, get tested for STDs and -if legal where you live- get the children's DNA tested.
> 
> Counselling? Yes, but not until she ceases her affair,


quoted for truth. It is a 15 year EA and probably a 15 year PA and >>0 chance kids may not be yours.

You can't do MC with a cheater.


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## cjadek

manfromlamancha said:


> I had asked this before but you may have missed it. Are you and your wife from the same country ? Is the OM from the same country too ? Would you mind saying what country that is ?


We are all from different countries however we all lived in the same country for many years


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## eric1

Good luck with exposure man, we are all pulling for you


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## cjadek

eric1 said:


> Good luck with exposure man, we are all pulling for you


Thank you @eric1


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## cjadek

I'll be making the call to OHW Tuesday US time. I'm am in no way nervous about this I've made much harder calls in my life.

I was adopted and found my birth mother when I was 40 after a period of time she told me my fathers name, he wasn't 100% aware of my existence. I researched and found him online and just picked up the phone and called (After 5 beers for courage! OK 6) this will be a walk in the park compared to that.

I can only see upside. 
1. OMW gets to hear what a pig of a husband she has been marriage to for 20+ years.
2. OM gets to learn the consequences of infidelity and if he does truly love my W as he has profess consistently all this time it will give him the opportunity to finally set himself free from an unhappy marriage and may one day be truly happy (just not with my W!!)
3. OMW may be able to help fill in gaps I've missed in the email trail which will (or not) ratify Ws story about when and how contact resumed after our 1st NC agreement. This will add to my process of starting to trust her again / or not either way it will add to it.

Hope that doesn't make me a bad person but I do have a small sense of revenge towards OM he started this most unpleasant journey. As they say revenge is a dish best served cold.

Thanks to all of you who have actively encouraged me to think about the other victim of this EA and to show her the respect, decency and dignity she deserves. (Unless they have some kind of open marriage).

Oh! What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.


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## Mizzbak

I know you wouldn't be otherwise @cjadek, but ... be gentle with the OM's W. 

Don't get angry/frustrated if, once she understands what you're saying, she starts trying to convince you that there's nothing to worry about. You've got quite a headstart on her in dealing with this. She may have to get through denial and out on the other side, just like many of us did.

Know that you're doing the right thing for her. She might not want to know, but she does need to.
I've been on the other end of one of these calls... 

Thoughts with you.


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## MattMatt

@cjadek We are here for you. And also for the OM's wife, if she needs the support of TAM.


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## cjadek

Mizzbak said:


> I know you wouldn't be otherwise @cjadek, but ... be gentle with the OM's W.
> 
> Don't get angry/frustrated if, once she understands what you're saying, she starts trying to convince you that there's nothing to worry about. You've got quite a headstart on her in dealing with this. She may have to get through denial and out on the other side, just like many of us did.
> 
> Know that you're doing the right thing for her. She might not want to know, but she does need to.
> I've been on the other end of one of these calls...
> 
> Thoughts with you.


Oh I intend to be nothing but gentle (and firm) with OMW she maybe about to have the world she thought she lived in turned upside down. If I can't be sympathetic to that given my current state of affairs then I'd not be the man I think I am.


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## cjadek

MattMatt said:


> @cjadek We are here for you. And also for the OM's wife, if she needs the support of TAM.


Thoughts on showing her this thread when/if the time is right?


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## naiveonedave

cjadek said:


> Thoughts on showing her this thread when/if the time is right?


I would keep this as your safe space. If she comes here, she could figure out how/what you are doing before you want her to. The other thing is she may get pisst that you are shaming her on the world wide interweb.....


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## sokillme

cjadek said:


> Thoughts on showing her this thread when/if the time is right?


Like if she is faithful for 15 years. Right now if you want to make a point that was made here summarize it in a letter coming from you in your own words. Right now though it's better to keep her guessing, remember you never should give away your position when you are being strategic and getting out of infidelity take strategy.


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## MattMatt

cjadek said:


> Thoughts on showing her this thread when/if the time is right?


When the time is right, yes.


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## Bibi1031

cjadek said:


> Thoughts on showing her this thread when/if the time is right?


Not if you need this place to help YOU. 

Why don't you start by getting her the book "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass. It will very clearly show her that she was indeed cheating on YOU all those years. It will also show her that what this OM was indeed doing was grooming her and cheating on his wife by the language he used to refer to your wife. He is not her father, and her seeing him like that is wrong on so many levels that she needs her eyes opened wide. Dr. Shirley Glass will set her straight.

EAs are more damaging to marriages, in many instances, than PAs.

How would your wife feel if you wrote to another woman what she has allowed this weasel to write to her? 

If she thinks that what she was doing was not wrong, she is not worth keeping. Physical affair or not, the damage is big. She has a faithful loving husband of 15 years and 3 kids that could be devastated because she couldn't put a stop to an old fart that disrespected his wife of 20 years to feed lies in your wife's ear. What is she made of? What decent woman would let a man disrespect their wife with what he professed to feel for a much younger married woman? 

He has no respect what so ever. I can't believe she couldn't see past this?


----------



## eric1

If you tell her about this thread then there is a real chance your wife will find out. 

Honestly, these first few weeks are the busiest in terms of having things to do, but you'll have some pretty privileged monitoring information, etc perhaps compromised.


----------



## cjadek

eric1 said:


> If you tell her about this thread then there is a real chance your wife will find out.
> 
> Honestly, these first few weeks are the busiest in terms of having things to do, but you'll have some pretty privileged monitoring information, etc perhaps compromised.


Heard you loud and clear. 

Being able to get real advice from real people who have the battle scars is invaluable.


----------



## TDSC60

cjadek said:


> Thoughts on showing her this thread when/if the time is right?


You are talking about showing OMW this thread and not your wife -- right.

I don't know if you should show OMW this thread, but you can certainly refer her to this website for help if she would like to start her own thread.


----------



## alexm

dianaelaine59 said:


> I agree that it certainly shows bad very bad character from the OM.
> 
> He's not shown respect for her marriage OR her husband, at all!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nor has she, unfortunately.

But some people are just completely pig-headed with this sort of thing. Or also oblivious. Or a combination of the two.

But, as we all (should) know, he's not much of a friend to her if he's constantly wedging himself in on their marriage and professing his love to her. If he can't help but feel that way about her, fine, but keep it to yourself and respect not just her marriage, but HER. Professing your undying love to somebody who is not available is not respectful in the least. She should see that, but clearly she doesn't.


----------



## eric1

CJ - everything working out as intended?


----------



## BetrayedDad

cjadek said:


> It was clear from the text's that this man was madly in love with my wife saying things like 'You're the love of my life and I love you so much' she never told him she loved him but would sign off with things like "lots of love and hugs xxx" but never made an effort to repal these outbursts of undying love. I confronted her about this and she broke down begged me not to leave her and promised me on our childrens life that she would never have any contact with this man again and it was only ever a friendship and that it wasn't a PA.


But you saw right through her pity party and dumped her right?



cjadek said:


> I took her word for that.


***Cringe***



cjadek said:


> Fast forward 6 years and we now have 3 children and have moved back to the country of my birth. I was on our family laptop doing some work and I accidently click on her work gmail account instead of my gmail account to find an unread email sitting right there from the same man. I can't describe how I felt, I nearly vomitted into my mouth it was like deja-vu.


Well, at least you learned your lesson from the first time and you're ready to dump her now?



cjadek said:


> Is there anyway back from this even though we love each other and have 3 children.


***Cringe***



cjadek said:


> I feel so hurt and betrayed.


The first time you had every right to feel this way. The second time, it's on you friend.

You can't blame the flame for burning you, if you keep sticking your hand into the damn fire.


----------



## cjadek

eric1 said:


> CJ - everything working out as intended?


I think so, I've read alot and feel educated in the dark art of infidelity.
I dropped the poly on W this morning and it got the desired reaction and reply.
I am calling OMW tonight so looking forward to that.
I'm starting to see what I think is true remorse from W. I'm a also now getting clarity on the Ws defects that allowed this mess to eventuate and and also mine. I'm sharing these with her IC in a well thought-out constructive manner and W is also seeing and acknowledging them, which I see as positive.

I'm not ready to R yet but I'm seeing a path that I and no one else is driving that may just get there.


----------



## badmemory

You know what's worse than having your spouse cheat on you the first time? Giving them a second chance, and them betraying you again. Because that second chance should mean everything to them. And then you feel like such a fool for taking a chance that their remorse is genuine - after giving up more years of your life.

You're at another cross roads. This time it's "shame on me" if you give her a third chance.


----------



## Diana7

cjadek said:


> I think so, I've read alot and feel educated in the dark art of infidelity.
> I dropped the poly on W this morning and it got the desired reaction and reply.
> I am calling OMW tonight so looking forward to that.
> I'm starting to see what I think is true remorse from W. I'm a also now getting clarity on the Ws defects that allowed this mess to eventuate and and also mine. I'm sharing these with her IC in a well thought-out constructive manner and W is also seeing and acknowledging them, which I see as positive.
> 
> I'm not ready to R yet but I'm seeing a path that I and no one else is driving that may just get there.


Its easy to say sorry when you have been caught. Is she happy to do the poly?


----------



## cjadek

Diana7 said:


> Its easy to say sorry when you have been caught. Is she happy to do the poly?


She said she would. However her words mean little to now its actions I need to see


----------



## Andy1001

cjadek said:


> She said she would. However her words mean little to now its actions I need to see


You shouldn't have let her know until just before it was to happen.She will be googling how to beat a poly by now.Your best plan is to try thinking outside the box with the questions you ask her.Instead of asking her had she any physical interaction with the om,ask her how many times they had physically touched in the last fifteen years.Do not ask her has she sent him photos of her but ask her how many nude pics she has sent him.She will be expecting certain questions so don't ask her them.Ask her how many gifts he has given her or she given him.


----------



## eric1

I believe otherwise but I see the logic in your view. In my years of doing this a truly potentially remorseful wife will use the long lead in to a poly to really scare herself. Like if the marriage is in any way important to her it will eat at her soul.

Because let's face it, if she fails the poly the marriage is probably over. Giving her time for her soul to eat away at her is beneficial, both because you'll hear the truth before the truth will ruin everything and because it'll give you more conviction that a true poly reading is actually true.

Also let's face it, if there is enough hidden to fail a poly your gut will know anyways. It took NP5 two of em


----------



## cjadek

Andy1001 said:


> You shouldn't have let her know until just before it was to happen.She will be googling how to beat a poly by now.Your best plan is to try thinking outside the box with the questions you ask her.Instead of asking her had she any physical interaction with the om,ask her how many times they had physically touched in the last fifteen years.Do not ask her has she sent him photos of her but ask her how many nude pics she has sent him.She will be expecting certain questions so don't ask her them.Ask her how many gifts he has given her or she given him.


----------



## Diana7

cjadek said:


> She said she would. However her words mean little to now its actions I need to see


Surely its best to do the poly now so that you know the truth before you decide what to do? 
I guess the phone call with the OM's wife will be telling. She may even know more than you already, or can find out more than you know. I hope for you sake that she isn't lying yet again.


----------



## heartbroken50

Andy1001 said:


> You shouldn't have let her know until just before it was to happen.She will be googling how to beat a poly by now.Your best plan is to try thinking outside the box with the questions you ask her.Instead of asking her had she any physical interaction with the om,ask her how many times they had physically touched in the last fifteen years.Do not ask her has she sent him photos of her but ask her how many nude pics she has sent him.She will be expecting certain questions so don't ask her them.Ask her how many gifts he has given her or she given him.




I had my H take a poly.... my main concern was verifying that his EA was never a PA. 

One thing to keep in mind is that only yes or no questions are allowed and you will be limited to 3-4 questions.

Mine centered on whether he was still in contact with OW, had they gone PA, and were there any other OW I did not know about.

I did not tell him what the questions were in advance.

He was willing to take it and did pass. No parking lot confession. 

One piece of advice I got here on TAM that made a lot of sense to me was to NOT do a poly if you don't think you will believe the results. If she passes, will you accept the results? If you think you will still have doubts, don't waste your money.

I was also clear with H that while I believe he never had a PA, he wasn't off the hook for the EA. We still had work to do (still do).

BTW, it was relatively affordable ... I think we paid $275-295. This past fall. Worth it if it helps your marriage.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001

heartbroken50 said:


> I had my H take a poly.... my main concern was verifying that his EA was never a PA.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is that only yes or no questions are allowed and you will be limited to 3-4 questions.
> 
> Mine centered on whether he was still in contact with OW, had they gone PA, and were there any other OW I did not know about.
> 
> I did not tell him what the questions were in advance.
> 
> He was willing to take it and did pass. No parking lot confession.
> 
> One piece of advice I got here on TAM that made a lot of sense to me was to NOT do a poly if you don't think you will believe the results. If she passes, will you accept the results? If you think you will still have doubts, don't waste your money.
> 
> I was also clear with H that while I believe he never had a PA, he wasn't off the hook for the EA. We still had work to do (still do).
> 
> BTW, it was relatively affordable ... I think we paid $275-295. This past fall. Worth it if it helps your marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi.That was why I made the point about being limited to three or four questions,you really are not going to find out a lot.The really good testers charge thousands but you may still get the same result.It is only by asking dozens,even hundreds of questions that a pattern will emerge.You have to ask completely innocuous questions during the test to compare readings.


----------



## cjadek

Well my lead on OMW turned cold. Back to the drawing board.
She has a Facebook account but aren't sure OM isn't going to see any private message and shut it down. Any suggestions on angles I can work? I know their home phone number but I see that as risky. He's semi retired and likely to be at home. I need her to be somewhere that she can composer herself after the news to focus her on the job at hand without OM catch on.


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## eric1

Don't get cute - just call the home number. 

'My name is CJ, my wife worked with your husband at Big Company. Are you available to speak privately for a few moments?"

The important thing is that she knows. There will never be a perfect time for her to find out. He may get a sooner opportunity to lie his way out, but you have hard proof.


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## alexm

cjadek said:


> Well my lead on OMW turned cold. Back to the drawing board.
> She has a Facebook account but aren't sure OM isn't going to see any private message and shut it down. Any suggestions on angles I can work? I know their home phone number but I see that as risky. He's semi retired and likely to be at home. I need her to be somewhere that she can composer herself after the news to focus her on the job at hand without OM catch on.


Call the home # from a pay phone, or block your number. If he answers, simply ask to speak to her. If he asks who's speaking, tell him it's Joe from work, or simply that it's work-related.

If she answers, there you go. As said above, ask her if she has a few minutes to speak in private, and that you're not selling anything.

Simply start the conversation by asking her if she knows your wife's name, or who she is. That will immediately tell you if she's aware that she even exists. If she is, then you can skip a lot of explaining and she's more likely to stay on the phone longer and listen to you.

IMO, if you, for whatever reason aren't able to reach her after a certain period of time (maybe give it a few weeks?), then just speak to HIM, man-to-man, without losing your cool (if you do, he'll likely hang up and you'll never be able to reach either of them).

I think all you have to say to him is that if he ever contacts your wife again (or even replies to her attempts to contact him) you will immediately contact HIS wife. You DO actually have a paper trail, and you can directly quote from some of his messages if he needs proof.

You may have to BS him a little, and tell him your wife has given up all her passwords and you have full access to her devices, so even if he thinks he's smart and tries to contact her through alternative means, he'll be fearful you'll see them.

You could also let him know that the next time you're in his neck of the woods, you'll be more than happy to swing by their house (or her workplace) and say hi.

Last, you could go the old-school route and actually write a letter. Send it registered mail to her workplace (if you know it). Include printed-out screen caps of his and your wife's conversations.


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## Mizzbak

@cjadek - a few comments from my side. 

*Good reasons to tell OM's W*
From a moral perspective, she has the right to know. 
From a consequences perspective, the affair needs to see the light of day. 
From a preventative perspective, the affair is far less likely to go on in any way if both your wife and the OM are being monitored by their respective spouses. 

*Less good reason to tell OM's W*
The OM's W is an asset to be exploited to get additional information/confirmation (and I really get this, believe me, I do). 

You need to bear a few things in mind:

1. You are telling her something that might be devastating to her. A few hours to compose herself apart from her husband is not going to make a huge difference. (If I'd been phoned when my husband was not with me, then the first thing I would have done is call him after receiving that call. Remember that thinking strategically is not likely at that point) 
2. Unless she has amazing coping skills, she isn't even going to be able to think about looking for more information for you. She will want to see what you have first. She also needs to have some say in how to proceed from that point on. It is her life too. 
3. You are a complete stranger to her. If a stranger asked me to start spying on my husband (even with the information that you're going to tell her), I am far more likely to either confront my husband, or perhaps I may start snooping (but in my own way, at my own pace). 
4. She has no inherent loyalty to you. She may share a desire to get to the truth. But, in truth, you do not have her best interests at heart - you have your own. (This is as it should be, by the way). 

So, if you're hoping that by telling her, you're getting a spy in the enemy camp, then I think that you are going to be disappointed. Don't try and manipulate her, just call her at home. If you're worried that you might give yourself away if the OM answers, then get someone to play switchboard operator for you and ask to speak to her.


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## dianaelaine59

The app "text now" will give you a different phone number to call from. 

But yes, just make the call to their home. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## VladDracul

cjadek said:


> Well my lead on OMW turned cold. Back to the drawing board.
> She has a Facebook account but aren't sure OM isn't going to see any private message and shut it down. Any suggestions on angles I can work? I know their home phone number but I see that as risky. He's semi retired and likely to be at home. I need her to be somewhere that she can composer herself after the news to focus her on the job at hand without OM catch on.


My advice is to don't do facebook, text, emails or any form of written communication. It has a way of coming back to haunt you. Call the woman at home. If a man answers, pretend you're calling about a car on craigslist or some other non-sense or keep saying "hello, can you hear me" two or three time and hang up. You can try facebook and linkedin to see if she has a place of employment listed.


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## sokillme

cjadek said:


> Well my lead on OMW turned cold. Back to the drawing board.
> She has a Facebook account but aren't sure OM isn't going to see any private message and shut it down. Any suggestions on angles I can work? I know their home phone number but I see that as risky. He's semi retired and likely to be at home. I need her to be somewhere that she can composer herself after the news to focus her on the job at hand without OM catch on.


I made a whole post about this and got destroyed for it, but I will ask you directly do you really want to be married to someone you need to use a machine on to know if they are telling the truth. I mean if I had told you before you got married this is where you would be what would you have done. Are you so sure your life won't just be better moving on? What is your motive to stay married? If I ask you that question deep down what is it? Is it that this is just what you have known for 15 years or whatever and you feel safe and don't like change? What if I could guarantee you that you would be just as happy as you were before if you left? Are you sure you are not settling?


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## VladDracul

Whatjew mean, got destroyed by it? You didn't get destroyed. Other just didn't want to hear what you said, (look at the demonstrations that are going on), meaning you were probably on the money.


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## dianaelaine59

Sooooo????


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## manfromlamancha

CJ, am I correct in understanding that English is not your, or your wife's, or the POSOM's first language - is that correct ? What language will the poly be in ?


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## Steve1000

sokillme said:


> Are you sure you are not settling?


I especially liked your last question. Betrayed spouses often end up settling for continued marriage to a spouse that they can't trust. The fact that his wife has now put the OP through this twice has ruined any chance of real peace, closeness, and happiness in his marriage.


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## cjadek

manfromlamancha said:


> CJ, am I correct in understanding that English is not your, or your wife's, or the POSOM's first language - is that correct ? What language will the poly be in ?


You've asked me twice what country I live in and now what my native tongue is.
I'm at a loss as to why these questions are relevant.

While I appreciate all comments and please don't take offence but is there a reason for this you'd like to share?


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## cjadek

I'm away for work atm
I'll endeavour to give an update asap. I'm in a really good space internally. 
I still haven't contacted OMW but I will not rug sweep this task it's difficult with time zone differences.
I will show her the respect she deserves.


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## dianaelaine59

cjadek said:


> I'm away for work atm
> 
> I'll endeavour to give an update asap. I'm in a really good space internally.
> 
> I still haven't contacted OMW but I will not rug sweep this task it's difficult with time zone differences.
> 
> I will show her the respect she deserves.




I really hope you're going to do this!! I know I would've done it the first day I discovered everything, but that's just me. 

Please do this ASAP, no more excuses, poor woman she really needs to know. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## manfromlamancha

cjadek said:


> You've asked me twice what country I live in and now what my native tongue is.
> I'm at a loss as to why these questions are relevant.
> 
> While I appreciate all comments and please don't take offence but is there a reason for this you'd like to share?


Yes there is a reason. Besides the many cultural differences in approaches to dealing with infidelity that exist (and take this from a true multinational here), an English polygraph has very poor results with non-native English speakers. And if you three speak different languages, then English is probably the common language and might be used for the poly. In this case I would not trust the results. That's why I ask. I am interested because I have had to deal with not just this, but also counselling and other psychotherapy for people that do not speak English as a first language. The treatment is never effective just like the poly might not be too. You seem to have a good command of the language - I was just curious if this is taking place in the USA then an English poly might not be useful.

I must admit that now I am now curious as to why you are reluctant to say what the countries involved are. I am from the United Kingdom and English is my first language.


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## eric1

I disagree Infidelity has cultural implications. At the stage CJ is at it's a pretty binary operation. He needs the complete truth, he needs complete remorse and he needs some time to let this digest.

I do think that if reconciliation does occur that there are cultural implications.


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## cjadek

manfromlamancha said:


> Yes there is a reason. Besides the many cultural differences in approaches to dealing with infidelity that exist (and take this from a true multinational here), an English polygraph has very poor results with non-native English speakers. And if you three speak different languages, then English is probably the common language and might be used for the poly. In this case I would not trust the results. That's why I ask. I am interested because I have had to deal with not just this, but also counselling and other psychotherapy for people that do not speak English as a first language. The treatment is never effective just like the poly might not be too. You seem to have a good command of the language - I was just curious if this is taking place in the USA then an English poly might not be useful.
> 
> I must admit that now I am now curious as to why you are reluctant to say what the countries involved are. I am from the United Kingdom and English is my first language.


Ok, I'm not sure why but I have a heightened sense of suspicion right now ��. All involved are English speaker primarily. EA Started in UK we're now living in Australia.


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## manfromlamancha

Oh OK - not an issue then. Sorry for the threadjack


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## Mizzbak

cjadek said:


> Ok, I'm not sure why but I have a heightened sense of suspicion right now ��. All involved are English speaker primarily. EA Started in UK we're now living in Australia.


I think some degree of paranoia is entirely normal when you've just found out that you've been badly deceived by someone you trusted a great deal.

I hope that you and your family are getting through this OK - I really battled to be a normal parent in the months after my D-Day. I didn't want to pretend to be someone I wasn't, but I wasn't even sure what I was.


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## manfromlamancha

eric1 said:


> I disagree Infidelity has cultural implications. At the stage CJ is at it's a pretty binary operation. He needs the complete truth, he needs complete remorse and he needs some time to let this digest.
> 
> I do think that if reconciliation does occur that there are cultural implications.


I can guarantee you that Infidelity has cultural implications. I do agree that he needs the complete truth - the question was how does he go about getting it ? And here is where I said (which is a moot point now anyway) that a poly in English for a non-native English speaker is not as effective. 

As for the cultural implications, a western wife coming clean on infidelity is quite different than, say, a Turkish wife, a Mongolian wife, an Afghani wife etc and again is handled differently in Slavic states as opposed to Western European states etc etc. What is common is that infidelity takes place in all these places as is the need to have complete truth.


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## RWB

eric1 said:


> At the stage CJ is at it's a pretty *binary operation*. He needs the *complete truth*, he needs *complete remorse *and he needs some *time to let this digest*.


Eric, 

That's a ternary operation... 3 operands.


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## dianaelaine59

Contact the wife yet?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dianaelaine59

Me thinks he's not going to call the wife. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MAJDEATH

Call the OMs wife. If you don't you are a participant in the infidelity, and another party is being deceived.


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## cjadek

MAJDEATH said:


> Call the OMs wife. If you don't you are a participant in the infidelity, and another party is being deceived.


Tried calling a couple of times but no luck.

My next option is messenger which will leave a message on Facebook not ideal but options are limited.


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## cjadek

Update. I'm now comfortable that no PA took place. I didn't do the poly although W agreed to it.
All the ' love talk' was one way and W accepts that this was totally unacceptable and reprehensible. She is working really hard to restore my trust and is having IC. She has a gullibility about her and although she knows it was wrong she didn't want to hurt anyone but ended up hurting the person she loves most.OM was playing the broken marriage card to play on her good nature, she knows this now and is devastated at how naive she's been. I'm all good, operating at my own pace and will look at MC when and if the time is right.


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## Rubix Cubed

cjadek said:


> Update. I'm now comfortable that no PA took place. I didn't do the poly although W agreed to it.
> * She has a gullibility about her .... *


 I'm not so sure she's the only gullible one. You need to move ahead with the poly no matter what she says or what you think you believe. You also need to keep trying to get into contact with the OMW to see if your wife's story is even a possibility.


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## sokillme

Rubix Cubed said:


> I'm not so sure she's the only gullible one. You need to move ahead with the poly no matter what she says or what you think you believe. You also need to keep trying to get into contact with the OMW to see if your wife's story is even a possibility.


So true :rofl:

Passive mouse gets eaten, every time.


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## eric1

I don't care if you remain married or if you divorce but for the love of god please don't rug sweep

It's very easy to get to her boyfriend's wife. Call, hire a messenger, Facebook message...whatever


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## cjadek

I've sent OMW a message via Facebook messenger.
Not my preferred option by a long shot but when you've exhausted all options you're left with what you have.
I started with a brief then put in 6 snippets of his emails to my W. I suggested she haul his sorry ass for a poly so we can compare notes.
It's not going to make pleasant reading for her.
OMWs last activity on Facebook was 18 month's ago. If she doesn't respond should I send a similar message to OM and OMW adult children? They are both active Facebook users.


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## JohnA

Hi,

The reason I push to know the state or countries involved is often the BS is frozen by the adultery and does not take steps to protect themselves. For example can you wife legally take your children out of the country? Do your children have dual citizenship? You cannot say this not apply to me because it may. So if you lived in the states you could file a document with immigration stating the children cannot leave the children without a court's permission. I assume her parents still in another country. What do you do if she decides to run home to mom and dad.

In the US while there are many common standards a divorce occurs at the state level and is decided by that's states standards. So as a concerned poster what I really want to know is does the OP know the laws where they live. 

So my first question to you, and should be for you if a divorce does happen how do you maximize custody and what the asset division will be. Then work on the marriage.


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## cjadek

The children's passports are locked away. Mum and Dad are no longer walking the earth.
She's not going anywhere anytime soon.


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## JohnA

Now the marriage. Be careful choosing a MC. Here is the first question and it is true or false: 

Adultery is adultery, issues are issue. If the MC says false move on. If the MC says true then ask:

Which is the primary issues to deal with first: the issues or the adultery. If the answer is the issues caused by the adultery they may be a good MC. 

This site you need to review tonight Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends". It is by the author of "Not Just Friends". I personally am fine that for the time being you assume no PA. But this book deals with the hallmarks of emtional affairs, hw they start and how they turn into a PA. It discusses at length healthy boundaries and how to protect your marriage from yourself. 

Remember your marriage vows do not protect you, they are vows you swore to protect and honor.


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## JohnA

Finally if your marriage is not growing it is dying. Read this Discover Your Love Language - The 5 Love Languages®. I've followed the posts of a WS who committed adultery decades ago. Both she and her husband post. Their marriage seems great. She will tell you they work on reconcilation every day. Another way of saying that is they work on there marriage every day. But that is a discussion for after you get the issues of adultery dealt with.


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## cjadek

JohnA said:


> Now the marriage. Be careful choosing a MC. Here is the first question and it is true or false:
> 
> Adultery is adultery, issues are issue. If the MC says false move on. If the MC says true then ask:
> 
> Which is the primary issues to deal with first: the issues or the adultery. If the answer is the issues caused by the adultery they may be a good MC.
> 
> This site you need to review tonight Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends". It is by the author of "Not Just Friends". I personally am fine that for the time being you assume no PA. But this book deals with the hallmarks of emtional affairs, hw they start and how they turn into a PA. It discusses at length healthy boundaries and how to protect your marriage from yourself.
> 
> Remember your marriage vows do not protect you, they are vows you swore to protect and honor.


Thanks for the advice regarding MC

I've bought the book 'not just friends' both myself and W will be reading it, not sure if we should read out together or individually? Either way it'll be read.


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## JohnA

Either or, although it is helpful to look at relationships effect by this outside of your own at first. Otherwise it may turn into a weapon used against each other.


----------



## azteca1986

cjadek said:


> She has a gullibility about her and although she knows it was wrong she didn't want to hurt anyone but ended up hurting the person she loves most.OM was playing the broken marriage card to play on her good nature, she knows this now and is devastated at how naive she's been.


When she got back in contact with him and met him for a secret lunch meeting, your WW was neither "gullible" or "naive" but *calculating*. She deliberately hid this from you. Not to spare you, but because she knew what she was doing was against your wishes. She's one of those people that knows it's much easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

This is why it's called betrayal. The Wayward Spouse uses the trust that you afford them and then uses it against you. 

She's not gullible. She's not naive. She planned this. You know this too.


----------



## azteca1986

Another thing your WW is using aginst you is your natural reaction as a BS to just wish this would all just go away. A show of contrition, maybe some tears and now you're all good?

This is called rugsweeping. It doesn;t work. You rugswept this the first time, which is why it happened again. Show her some consequences. being willing to take a poly and actually going through with one and passing it are two different things. I suggest you don't mention it again till you have the poly booked, your questions ready and then spring it on her at the last minute. You can't believe what she says. Having to take a poly is a consequence of the fact that she is deceitful and untrustworthy. 

And, btw, I wouldn't hold too much stock in the fact you didn't find a smoking gun of a PA in their correspondence. If you looked through all my wife and I's emails or texts you wouldn't ever find evidence of our sex life. We were both there. We don't need to commit anything in writing.

Please, don't rugsweep again. Keep asking questions till her story makes sense.


----------



## cjadek

azteca1986 said:


> When she got back in contact with him and met him for a secret lunch meeting, your WW was neither "gullible" or "naive" but *calculating*. She deliberately hid this from you. Not to spare you, but because she knew what she was doing was against your wishes. She's one of those people that knows it's much easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.
> 
> This is why it's called betrayal. The Wayward Spouse uses the trust that you afford them and then uses it against you.
> 
> She's not gullible. She's not naive. She planned this. You know this too.


Yes she did and yes I do


----------



## Malaise

Do you know for a certainty what happened at this lunch meeting ?


----------



## eric1

cjadek said:


> I've sent OMW a message via Facebook messenger.
> Not my preferred option by a long shot but when you've exhausted all options you're left with what you have.
> I started with a brief then put in 6 snippets of his emails to my W. I suggested she haul his sorry ass for a poly so we can compare notes.
> It's not going to make pleasant reading for her.
> OMWs last activity on Facebook was 18 month's ago. If she doesn't respond should I send a similar message to OM and OMW adult children? They are both active Facebook users.



No. Adult children and still children and they can be impacted by this just as a ten year old could. They are a victim of abuse just as the OMW wife is and exposure to them needs to be handled tactfully.

The next step is getting someone to hand deliver to her. It'll cost you a hundred or so, but whatever. It'll be the best money you've ever spent.

If she is not active on Facebook she will not have gotten the message, it'll hammer it into spam. I'm on facebook daily and even I don't notice those messages.


----------



## eric1

cjadek said:


> Yes she did and yes I do


You said yourself she has a guillability about her. There is zero you've described that is guillable. If anyone is guillable it's her sad sack loser pathetic boyfriend who she led on for years (at best) for the ego kibbles that it gave her.


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## cjadek

Right just got off a 90 min call with OMW. She hang up on me twice but hung in there.
She's on board fully and is playing detective from her end. All will be clear very soon. I was calm and pointed, she was calm but I warned her she was about to have a total meltdown. This is going to get very real, real quickly
she's a feisty woman with a bee in her bonnet.
A woman scorned and all that, **** is about to hit the fan.... Duck


----------



## cjadek

It was harder than I thought, she was totally in the dark.
I feel liberated, thanks to all those who just wouldn't leave it alone, you know who you are. I can sleep easy for the first time in ages. A problem shared is a problem halved.


----------



## azteca1986

cjadek said:


> It was harder than I thought, she was totally in the dark.
> I feel liberated, thanks to all those who just wouldn't leave it alone, you know who you are. I can sleep easy for the first time in ages. A problem shared is a problem halved.


Good for you. That feeling of liberation is what lets you know you did the right thing. Poor woman - finding out her husband has for years claimed he's in love with someone else.

Now, don't say a word to your WW. Once OMW blows things up at his end, your WW's reaction will tell you a lot. Not least, that they're still in contact.


----------



## JohnA

Great advise from aztec1986. If she is NC there is no way for her to know except by looking at the phone bill. I generally do not like ****tests except for those that are not forced such as this situation. He may attempt to contact her, if so watch the Phone bills and the emails, etc. If he does so and she fails to do so the marriage is still in crisis. Wait a week in this situation and confront her.

If I have not suggested these sources you should review them to help build a healthy marriage. 

A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts. Note a lot of posters here hate this site because of his concept of Plan A and Plan B. He himself states right up front he would go 180, expose divorce and the same day he discovered adultery. That this plan is for those to emotionally weak to do so. But his insight into how to build a good marriage is very good. So read it and post your thoughts here on how you are using it and how it is working for you. 

Discover Your Love Language - The 5 Love Languages®. Great concepts developed from one simple concept: if you speak in French and the other person only speaks english you have a problem. Remember sometimes the greatest way to show you care and understand someone is by saying or doing something that means nothing to you. If I had done this I would have married my fiancé in 1980 instead of losing them.

There are responsibilities for a BS in reconciliation. - LoveShack.org Community Forums. A thoughtful article about your responsibilities. Reconcilation is a means to gain redemption. Redemption includes new boundaries and new habits. Redemption is earned by actions. 

The ?Other? Side of Infidelity: The Experience of the ?Other? Partner, Anxious Love, and Implications for Practitioners | DePompo | Psychological Thought. To help you understand her actions. 

Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®. Similar to MB. Have read threads where it worked. 

"His needs Her needs". Well thought of book.

"a married man's guide to sex" another well thought of book.

Be well


----------



## JohnA

One final note "random acts of kindness in every day life". Cannot stress the importance of this, especially when associated with actions or things that are not important to you. It could be a simple text out of the blue "hey I drove past x and could not help but remember when you and I ......

It could include praising her, not mentioning it to her and letting it get back to her. (breadcrumbs in the water). 

Oh in general never allow anyone to put down your wife with or without her ever knowing. Protect each other at all times. So when a poster or someone calls her a ****, a ****, a *****, or a ***** get in their face and tell them to back off. 

Got to run, more later.


----------



## eric1

cjadek said:


> It was harder than I thought, she was totally in the dark.
> I feel liberated, thanks to all those who just wouldn't leave it alone, you know who you are. I can sleep easy for the first time in ages. A problem shared is a problem halved.


EXACTLY. It's really more than halved. If one spouse is in the dark then that partner of the relationship can do ANYTHING. He can bend in many directions to keep contact open with his, in this case, girlfriend. It's near impossible to sleep easy knowing there is one party up all night with time and resources to contact your wife however he wants. By killing that flexibility on both ends it basically extinguishes the chances.

It's also the right thing to do. If you see someone broken down on the side of the highway you help them if you can. The world is a village and the good people need to look out for each other.


----------



## eric1

azteca1986 said:


> Good for you. That feeling of liberation is what lets you know you did the right thing. Poor woman - finding out her husband has for years claimed he's in love with someone else.
> 
> Now, don't say a word to your WW. Once OMW blows things up at his end, your WW's reaction will tell you a lot. Not least, that they're still in contact.


I cannot like this post enough. DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE THAT YOU DID THIS. LET ME SAY IT AGAIN. DO NOT TELL HER.

You will quickly know if there is a No Contact backchannel if she does find out, even if it's a common friend or similar.


----------



## cjadek

eric1 said:


> I cannot like this post enough. DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE THAT YOU DID THIS. LET ME SAY IT AGAIN. DO NOT TELL HER.
> 
> You will quickly know if there is a No Contact backchannel if she does find out, even if it's a common friend or similar.


I was thinking the other away around. I know there is no way W would or could contact OM without me knowing. I can slip in that OMW is on the lookout her end to add to the risk.
If I tell her and exaggerate that i told OMW last week, the sh1ts hit the fan and he's taking a poly tomorrow and I'll have the results very soon.
She'll either be cool out she'll freak as in a reverse parking lot confession. Her reaction will tell me everything. If she risks contacting OM knowing there are trip wires both ends then I'll also know.

What aren't I seeing here?


----------



## GusPolinski

cjadek said:


> I was thinking the other away around. I know there is no way W would or could contact OM without me knowing. I can slip in that OMW is on the lookout her end to add to the risk.
> If I tell her and exaggerate that i told OMW last week, the sh1ts hit the fan and he's taking a poly tomorrow and I'll have the results very soon.
> She'll either be cool out she'll freak as in a reverse parking lot confession. Her reaction will tell me everything. If she risks contacting OM knowing there are trip wires both ends then I'll also know.
> 
> What aren't I seeing here?


You are vastly underestimating the wayward capacity for duplicity.


----------



## cjadek

GusPolinski said:


> You are vastly underestimating the wayward capacity for duplicity.


If she believes he's taking a poly (which he will most likely be doing anyway) then there is no point contracting him. If she is lying about no PA she'll know she's trapped either way whether she contacts him or not.

Feel free to slap me I've got adrenaline coursing through my vains and see this as a short cut.
My gut says she's telling the truth about no PA this will prove poor disprove gut no?


----------



## harrybrown

has she taken the poly?

She is addicted to the OM. He is her drug.

Has she gone thru withdrawal, or does she still think so fondly of him?

She has disrespected you for years.

time for the D.


----------



## cjadek

harrybrown said:


> has she taken the poly?
> 
> She is addicted to the OM. He is her drug.
> 
> Has she gone thru withdrawal, or does she still think so fondly of him?
> 
> She has disrespected you for years.
> 
> time for the D.


There have been multiple year+ gaps in comms, so addiction may be a little strong.
She couldn't give a flying f*** about him.
She knows that he was feeding her BS about the state of his marriage and she is embarrassed she fell for it and felt sorry for his sorry arse.
It's fair to say she seriously dislikes him and his BS.


----------



## Be smart

Sorry to ask you this,but did you get DNA for your kids,especially the youngest one ?

I dont want to crush your hopes and dreams but 15 years is so long. 

She chose to live double life even after you gave her a second chance. She knew about consequences and how much this would hurt you. 

Dont tell her about OMW or your next steps. 

Stay strong.


----------



## TX-SC

Personally, I would go with your way of thinking. Let her know you have spoken to his wife and she is requiring a polygraph and you will be working with her to set up the questions. You'll then talk to her about the results. Don't accuse her or make threats, just be casual about it. She will know what's on the line. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## MAJDEATH

Good job on getting thru to the OMW. No she can be an advocate on her end to enforce NC, because I'm sure he promised his W that he would never speak to her again, in exchange for no D.


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## cjadek

Be smart said:


> Sorry to ask you this,but did you get DNA for your kids,especially the youngest one ?
> 
> I dont want to crush your hopes and dreams but 15 years is so long.
> 
> She chose to live double life even after you gave her a second chance. She knew about consequences and how much this would hurt you.
> 
> Dont tell her about OMW or your next steps.
> 
> Stay strong.


No DNA test as yet, that's not too say I've brushed it.

I brushed it last time so consequences weren't clear, I'm not excusing but its the reality. That won't again


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## cjadek

MAJDEATH said:


> Good job on getting thru to the OMW. No she can be an advocate on her end to enforce NC, because I'm sure he promised his W that he would never speak to her again, in exchange for no D.


I'm sure he will but he doesn't know she knows, I've gone to great lengths to impart the wisdom gained from TAM, she is in full detective mode and OMs d-day won't happen until she has exhausted all avenues.
Cheating is a dirty game and she knows she's going to need to get dirty. I don't know her but she seems to be a very strong lady and she's going to need to be


----------



## azteca1986

cjadek said:


> She couldn't give a flying f*** about him.


Yet she chose "meeting him for lunch" and keeping it secret from you over your mutually agreed way to move forward after you caught her last time. If she doesn't give a flying f*** about him, what does she think of you?


> It's fair to say she seriously dislikes him and his BS.


Why does she dislike OMW? What has OMW ever done to your WW apart from being married to her OM? 

Pay attention to these details. After a 15 year EA, where she' put her feelings and his feelings above yours, she suddenly changes? There's usually some inertia. I bet you still love your wife despite her betrayals. I suspect she's just telling you what you want to hear.

And why does she seriously dislike his BS? OMW is the wronged party here (with you). Be suspicious.


----------



## cjadek

azteca1986 said:


> Yet she chose "meeting him for lunch" and keeping it secret from you over your mutually agreed way to move forward after you caught her last time. If she doesn't give a flying f*** about him, what does she think of you?
> Why does she dislike OMW? What has OMW ever done to your WW apart from being married to her OM?
> 
> Pay attention to these details. After a 15 year EA, where she' put her feelings and his feelings above yours, she suddenly changes? There's usually some inertia. I bet you still love your wife despite her betrayals. I suspect she's just telling you what you want to hear.
> 
> And why does she seriously dislike his BS? OMW is the wronged party here (with you). Be suspicious.


To be clear here she dislikes OM not OMW. His BS was faking a bad marriage and told her OMW had had affairs.
He was clearly grooming her with BS, she knows this now.
It was these details OMW was most upset about when I spoke to her as she's not looked at another man in nearly 45 years of marriage.
She has held onto the belief that no PA= no affair.
It's fair to say she has been given a short sharp lesson on EA and there damage.


----------



## cjadek

cjadek said:


> To be clear here she dislikes OM not OMW. His BS was faking a bad marriage and told her OMW had had affairs.
> He was clearly grooming her with BS, she knows this now.
> It was these details OMW was most upset about when I spoke to her as she's not looked at another man in nearly 45 years of marriage.
> *She* has held onto the belief that no PA= no affair.
> It's fair to say she has been given a short sharp lesson on EA and there damage.


She being W not OMW
So much being clear!!


----------



## eric1

cjadek said:


> I was thinking the other away around. I know there is no way W would or could contact OM without me knowing. I can slip in that OMW is on the lookout her end to add to the risk.
> 
> If I tell her and exaggerate that i told OMW last week, the sh1ts hit the fan and he's taking a poly tomorrow and I'll have the results very soon.
> 
> She'll either be cool out she'll freak as in a reverse parking lot confession. Her reaction will tell me everything. If she risks contacting OM knowing there are trip wires both ends then I'll also know.
> 
> 
> 
> What aren't I seeing here?




Nothing. Your reasoning is sound. Give it a few weeks to see if you can smoke out NC breaks then absolutely execute your plan.


----------



## cjadek

eric1 said:


> Nothing. Your reasoning is sound. Give it a few weeks to see if you can smoke out NC breaks then absolutely execute your plan.


I know I'll get fried for saying this but I'm 100% certain W will never ever have contact with that POSOM. Ever


----------



## sokillme

cjadek said:


> I know I'll get fried for saying this but I'm 100% certain W will never ever have contact with that POSOM. Ever


I think reading your posts and knowing your history, a history with 15 years of another man in at least the periphery of your marriage, we all have no doubts you are 100% certain. I think that is the point you are missing. Your certainty button is broken. This is why you need to forget using it and investigate. You absolutely have no read on you wife, the sooner you get that the better off you will be. You are probably never going to have a read on her, she fooled you now twice. For over 15 years.


----------



## Malaise

cjadek said:


> I know I'll get fried for saying this but I'm 100% certain W will never ever have contact with that POSOM. Ever


What about someone else? 

She has a lousy track record.


----------



## JohnA

What was your wife's parents marriage like? What was her relationship with her Dad, or father figure like? Parts of her story has echoes of "daddy issues".


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## cjadek

JohnA said:


> What was your wife's parents marriage like? What was her relationship with her Dad, or father figure like? Parts of her story has echoes of "daddy issues".


Ws father died suddenly when she was 15, mother fell apart and was next to useless for a few years. W was a daddys girl.


----------



## eric1

cjadek said:


> I know I'll get fried for saying this but I'm 100% certain W will never ever have contact with that POSOM. Ever




With all due respect you need to shelve your confidence that you have any 'control' over her. She's going to do what she wants.

Maybe someday she will earn that 100% confidence back but again, gently, I'm reasonably certain that it shouldn't be 100% basically a few weeks after a 2nd DDay.

There is no downside the waiting a few weeks just to be sure.


----------



## JohnA

So there may be "daddy issues" involved. Try doing a search of daddy issues


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## eric1

Dude how is it going?


----------



## cjadek

eric1 said:


> Dude how is it going?


Still here, not sure where to start.
I told W about the contact I made with OMW and that he'd be having a poly and I'd get the result emphasising that any PA would come out through this, W didn't flinch at all and I was watching her very closely. She reiterated her conviction that there was never any intimacy and that she was never physically attracted to OM and he was like a father figure to her, one that she openly admits was wrong because of his feelings towards her. She just didn't see the harm. She knows the harm it's caused me and our marriage and is sickened by it.
We had MC this week and it was a real wakeup call for her hearing how this has affected me.
I have been very blunt about what I need to see in order to consider moving toward R. I guess we'll see in the next weeks if her actions match her words.
I'm in good shape I'm controlling this thing, bossing it and running it my way at my pace to my schedule.i still need to see plenty more remorse and action from W bit the signs are good.
Thanks again for all your advice and support, whatever happens from here I'm going to be better than good. Much love CJ


----------



## Mizzbak

cjadek - it sounds like you are achieving a very objective state. IMO, this is a very good thing. Anger and pain can be incredibly energising in terms of getting things done, but I think the most constructive outcomes are always achieved once we recognise these emotions; and then choose our course of action wisely, taking them into account.

Well done on contacting the OM's wife. If she hasn't thanked you yet, then know that there will come a time when she will be grateful.

I wish you well, and also your wife. She has some way to go, but if she has begun to empathise with you, and understand the impact of her actions on you, then this bodes well. Many people here on TAM will discuss the difference between regret (focus on self i.e. WS) and remorse (focus on the BS). 

(When you're ready, go back and read your first post - think about your state of mind now compared to how it was. I visit mine every now and then!)


----------



## Diana7

Is the OMW going to let you know the results? 
I am surprised that your wife was surprised that men lie about their marriages to other women. I thought everyone knew that.


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## eric1

I read/talk about/involve myself in a ton of these situations and I just say that my gut tells me that your wife is telling the truth.

She wasn't having an affair but likes the attention and was willing to sacrifice her own ethics for that attention. Had the OM been closer, better looking and probably a little more convincing it likely would have snowballed into a real affair. This is very concerning in that she's going to need some real work to fix this in her. She's a considerable affair risk and that's not safe.

But she can make herself safe for you if she tries.


----------



## alte Dame

I often wish with a real ferocity that human beings could come out of themselves even a little bit in order to be decent, in order to at least just 'do no harm.'

Your WW thinks that, since she had no romantic feelings for him, then what's the harm? For 15 years, a married man has pursued her and professed love, and she thinks, 'what's the harm'?

The harm is that he has a wife, a wife who is a real, three-dimensional human being with all of the feelings that go with that. Your WW didn't miss much of a beat when she simply discounted that poor woman's feelings.

How would your WW feel about a woman who stayed in your married life for 15 years as someone that her H professed deep love for?

Your WW should have shut this down 15 years ago, not just because of her commitment to you, but because she strives to be A DECENT HUMAN BEING.

At this point, if she has any real conscience, she should be crying real, relentless tears about the pain she and the OM have caused a woman who has deserved nothing less than basic human respect.

Your WW needs some kindergarten lessons on the golden rule.


----------



## Diana7

alte Dame said:


> I often wish with a real ferocity that human beings could come out of themselves even a little bit in order to be decent, in order to at least just 'do no harm.'
> 
> Your WW thinks that, since she had no romantic feelings for him, then what's the harm? For 15 years, a married man has pursued her and professed love, and she thinks, 'what's the harm'?
> 
> The harm is that he has a wife, a wife who is a real, three-dimensional human being with all of the feelings that go with that. Your WW didn't miss much of a beat when she simply discounted that poor woman's feelings.
> 
> How would your WW feel about a woman who stayed in your married life for 15 years as someone that her H professed deep love for?
> 
> Your WW should have shut this down 15 years ago, not just because of her commitment to you, but because she strives to be A DECENT HUMAN BEING.
> 
> At this point, if she has any real conscience, she should be crying real, relentless tears about the pain she and the OM have caused a woman who has deserved nothing less than basic human respect.
> 
> Your WW needs some kindergarten lessons on the golden rule.


I so agree,if a married man professed love for me just once, I would have immediately stopped all contact with him. She went along with it for 15 YEARS!!!!


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## Mizzbak

@alte Dame, I so want to agree with you, but I'm afraid that I don't. Or, at least not exactly. 

cjadek's wife should bear the full weight of the damage that she did to her marriage in pursuing a secretive, inappropriate, self-serving relationship with another man for 15 years. The OM should bear the full weight of his betrayal of his marriage vows. They each need to assume complete culpability for their own spouse's pain. 

I think cjadek's wife should be focused on cjadek and not on dealing with guilt for trangressing the bounds of common decency. Yes, her actions and choices impacted the OM's wife. Yes, she did not behave in a decent or honourable way. But frankly, that behaviour was incidental not deliberate. And the guilt that she should feel around this is way down on the priority list. She did not break any promises made to the OM's wife or even have any bond with her * (not sure whether she had even met her?). Trying to hold the OM or OW accountable in some way for the BS's hurt allows blame shifting from the WS. It's also a cunning tactic we BS's often try to use on our own to make our WS's more palatable - it wasn't their fault, they were tempted, misled etc. IMO, we need to honestly and objectively confront the offending part of our WS if we are to have any chance of forgiving them or even considering an effective reconciliation. 

From my perspective - as a BS, it is entirely OK to loathe the OM or OW. (There are recently elected presidents that I loathe with far less personal reason.) I have very little respect for my husband's OW. But she really shouldn't matter to me at all. And to say that she "should have been a better person and considered my feelings"? Frankly, it feels a little toothless. 

So to say that cjadek's wife should be weeping for the "pain she caused" the OM's wife. I'm not sure that it is useful... or realistic. We should all be striving to be better people and challenging ourselves when we fall short of that. I hope that one day, cjadek's wife does think about the pain caused this other woman so far away by her actions and inaction. And that it makes her a better person. But for now, all her energy should be on her marriage and on cjadek.


(* Where the OW or OM is a person that the BS has a relationship with (beyond acquaintanceship), then I have more complex feelings. But, even in this case, the additional pain the BS is feeling comes from the betrayal of their own relationship with the OW or OM. And that should be processed separately.)


----------



## alte Dame

Is this cam's thread?

I thought I was responding to an OP whose wife carried on a 15-year A with a married man who was in love with her even though she didn't return his feelings of love.

??


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## giddiot

This is not Cam's thread


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

alte Dame said:


> Is this cam's thread?
> 
> I thought I was responding to an OP whose wife carried on a 15-year A with a married man who was in love with her even though she didn't return his feelings of love.
> 
> ??


Ha! Nope.


----------



## alte Dame

I was responding to Mizzbak's comment about my comment, lol. His comment assumed I was talking about Cam, which I wasn't.

And the OP of this thread is, in fact, a man whose wife had a 15-year EA, so I am leaving my comment above.


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## TX-SC

... 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## Mizzbak

@alte Dame, I will take a longer break between reading threads. sigh. But my comments were for cjadek's thread and in response to your comment. 

Would therefore like to know what you think?

(Humblest apologies, cjadek - I definitely meant you and your wife.)


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## alte Dame

I think that Cam and his WW have a different scenario and thus my opinions are a bit different.

OP here is facing a WW who has hidden a relationship for 15 years. According to her, it was always unrequited love on the part of the OM.

Since for her they were never a 'couple,' then why would she stay in his marriage all this time? His BW's hurt is on both of them, in my opinion. OP's WW could have bowed out many years ago and after that not been in any way a vehicle for the mega-hurt that is coming the BW's way.

So, it's my opinion that it would have been very easy for the WW to do the right thing a long time ago. There were none of the typical excuses from the cheater's script on her part, if she's not lying about her feelings. No love chemicals or hormones, no sex, no romantic physical affection. She could have told him years ago that it was inappropriate and the two of them needed to part ways.

She didn't do it, though, for very selfish reasons.

Imagine that two people get drunk one night and drive around from bar to bar having fun. One of these people gets drunk every night and puts other people's lives at risk by driving drunk at the end of the night. This drunken person wants his friend to accompany him on all of his drunk driving nights.

But the passenger is now a sober man and doesn't feel the way his drunken friend does about bar hopping and DUI. Does this passenger get in the car with the drunken friend every night and drive around because he likes his company? Does he do that for 15 years?

Needless to say, we hope not. The OM in this case is the drunk and the WW is the passenger who let the driver drive drunk for years. Cam's WW and her OM were both drunk and driving around heedless.

I stand by my remarks, no question. I believe that the WW here was so careless in her sense of decency toward the OM's BW that it simply didn't matter to her whether she was stringing along the OM for years.

And again. 15 years.


----------



## cjadek

Time for an update. FWIW
After exposing the EA to OMW and sending her some of the message OM has sent to W things blew up big time.
OM contacted me to ask me to stop contact with OMW. I agreed on the condition that he gave me a timeline with details that match W's timeline etc. I probed and poked until they had nothing more to give each without knowing I was probing the other. (Neither of them know till this day the full extent of my checking and cross checking)
My only reservation was a pre-hatched story between W and OMW but like I've said before I'm technology professional and W and OMW are not so I know 100% there was absolutely no contact from well before D-day II.
Things matched up to my satisfaction. I put the blow torch on both parties especially W and the narratives check out. It may sound cliched and not something those on here take lightly but by the time I had finished, W would have to be one of the lairs on the planet if what she was saying wasn't true. (I know cheater are great liars etc...)
This was an EA prue and simple and although W had trouble accepting this as an affair as she was never attracted to OM in anyway what-so-ever and has never thought of him as anything but a friend, she has accepted responsibility and has been working very hard to put things right. She accepts that taking emotional comfort and flattery from anyone but me isn't acceptable in a marriage and any consequent behavior would end in instant D. I'm happy to say we're still together and things are good...very good in fact.
I still get pangs of hurt and get a bit down from time to time thinking about the deception but I'm OK, W recognizes this and ups her effort when she sees this.

We wouldn't be together today if this was a PA, I just wouldn't tolerate that.

My situation doesn't seem to be the normal outcome here compared to others and comments on this forum are pointed and based on experience however EA + Proximity doesn't always = PA.

Thanks to all those who have posted especially those who encouraged me to contact OMW. It took me a while to track her down but blowing this **** up was the best advice I could've had. You guys turned me into a mean, no bull****, ruthless, fact finding detective.
I can now put this experience in the bank and move on. My radar will forever be active and co-dependency isn't in my vocabulary. Thanks


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## Diana7

Why would your wife and the OMW hatch a story together?


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## cjadek

Diana7 said:


> Why would your wife and the OMW hatch a story together?


Typo, sorry I meant W and OM not W and OMW.


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## Rubix Cubed

cjadek said:


> *OM contacted me to ask me to stop contact with OMW.* I agreed on the condition that he gave me a timeline with details that match W's timeline etc.


 You should tell him to pound sand, and that decision is solely between you and his wife. He obviously had no respect for you for years, staying in contact with and professing his love for your wife behind your back the whole time. Screw him.


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## skerzoid

cjadek

I feel you did a masterful job. Good luck and keep your radar operative.


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## sokillme

cjadek said:


> Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?


I guess you found it, at least for now. For you I think the issue is going to be a few years from now when the emotion and trauma dies down and then you start to think more rationally about what was done to you. If you start to get dissatisfied with other aspects of your marriage a lot of times betrayal like this puts it over the top. But that is the risk the WS takes when they choose not to be loyal. They give up all the loyalty they would have received in return. They never think about that though. 

If you want to save your marriage now, maybe you talk about that aspect of this with your wife. I don't know if you can be proactive about that though. Maybe you can.


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## TDSC60

cjadek said:


> We wouldn't be together today if this was a PA, I just wouldn't tolerate that.
> My situation doesn't seem to be the normal outcome here compared to others and comments on this forum are pointed and based on experience however *EA + Proximity doesn't always = PA.
> *
> Thanks to all those who have posted especially those who encouraged me to contact OMW. It took me a while to track her down but blowing this **** up was the best advice I could've had. You guys turned me into a mean, no bull****, ruthless, fact finding detective.
> I can now put this experience in the bank and move on. My radar will forever be active and co-dependency isn't in my vocabulary. Thanks


Your wife seems to be the exception that proves the rule. You got lucky that the OM was old enough for her to be comfortable with an EA *only*. Still does not excuse all the lies and deception though.

Good luck and great update.


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## cjadek

Rubix Cubed said:


> You should tell him to pound sand, and that decision is solely between you and his wife. He obviously had no respect for you for years, staying in contact with and professing his love for your wife behind your back the whole time. Screw him.


Yes screw him is right. However I felt playing good cop gave me an advantage. I wanted something from him, a timeline and some detail. I wanted him to feel had nothing to lose and everything to gain by being completely transparent with me. I don't think I would've got that being bad cop.


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## cjadek

sokillme said:


> I guess you found it, at least for now. For you I think the issue is going to be a few years from now when the emotion and trauma dies down and then you start to think more rationally about what was done to you. If you start to get dissatisfied with other aspects of your marriage a lot of times betrayal like this puts it over the top. But that is the risk the WS takes when they choose not to be loyal. They give up all the loyalty they would have received in return. They never think about that though.
> 
> If you want to save your marriage now, maybe you talk about that aspect of this with your wife. I don't know if you can be proactive about that though. Maybe you can.


Sage advice I think. It got me thinking and yes my loyalty glass isn't as fill as it once was and that may very well cause problems down the road. I think it would be beneficial to talk about it. 

Might book another session with MC and steer the conversation towards loyalty levels and the potential future impact of them being lowered.


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## eric1

cjadek said:


> Yes screw him is right. However I felt playing good cop gave me an advantage. I wanted something from him, a timeline and some detail. I wanted him to feel had nothing to lose and everything to gain by being completely transparent with me. I don't think I would've got that being bad cop.




That seems reasonable but he already had no respect for you and had no reason to engage.

Fear is the only thing that can get them moving.


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## cjadek

eric1 said:


> That seems reasonable but he already had no respect for you and had no reason to engage.
> 
> Fear is the only thing that can get them moving.


His reason to engage was he wanted something from me, to cease contact with his BW. I was happy to play along so long as I got what I wanted. Timeline and details.


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## Lostinthought61

Are you still in contact with his wife?


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## Rubix Cubed

cjadek said:


> His reason to engage was he wanted something from me, to cease contact with his BW. I was happy to play along so long as I got what I wanted. Timeline and details.


 I hope you sent her a copy of the timeline and details immediately, and have kept in contact with her to make sure NC is maintained between your WW and the OM. Don't play by his rules he doesn't deserve you keeping your word, he deserves to be destroyed. As I said before SCREW HIM!


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## eric1

cjadek said:


> His reason to engage was he wanted something from me, to cease contact with his BW. I was happy to play along so long as I got what I wanted. Timeline and details.




Hilarious. What a dummy.


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## GusPolinski

cjadek said:


> ...however EA + Proximity doesn't always = PA.


This can only be true if the relationship in question isn't really an EA.

It's completely possible for a relationship to lack a (two-sided) romantic or physical component and still be inappropriate.


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## Mizzbak

Agreeing with @GusPolinski ... mostly. 

I think EA's become PA's with proximity and time. So it's just a question of when. I'd suggest that physical acts can be more "obviously" immoral to a WS. So it may take them some time to clamber over the ... uh, stile ... to the other side. Inappropriate thoughts, feelings and even texts may seem a lot less tangible than actually touching another person who you're not married to (or who is married to someone else) in a way that you know you shouldn't. 

I'm putting this out there as a warning to all those BS's who suspect/know about an EA. Who perhaps feel safe that it isn't a PA. May even have had it proven to them. And think that if they just give their spouse some time, he/she will "get over it" on their own. All an EA needs to become physical is time - it may be weeks, months or even years. But it will happen. Which is why you don't just nip an EA in the bud. You cut that sucker right off of the flower bush.

And that inappropriate relationships don't even have to have a romantic/physical/sexual component to be extraordinarily damaging to a marriage? This thread is a very good case in point.


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## cjadek

Mizzbak said:


> Agreeing with @GusPolinski
> And that inappropriate relationships don't even have to have a romantic/physical/sexual component to be extraordinarily damaging to a marriage? This thread is a very good case in point.


You've hit the nail on the head. Call it an EA or an inappropriate relationship. I couldn't give a ****.
The fact is this inappropriate relationship has caused a great deal of damage to both me and OMW.
I know OMW has been ill since I blew this thing up, stress related no doubt. 
W never had any physical or romantic involvement with OM (at least from her prospective) but at the end of the day she betrayed my trust, she was disloyal not once but twice and her selfishness has sentenced me an internal stress that isn't very pleasant to live with.
It's been a time where I'm constantly reassessing if the reward is worth the pain. An option appraisal if you will.
2-4 years seems to be generally acceptable time-frame to heal from a betrayal. Well what if you get through it you're no better off? All pain no gain and a waste of time that could be used to move on to a life more for-filling.
My head is saying 'just get over it man' but my gut seems to be deaf to what my head is saying.
It's not that I don't think I know the full story, it's a deep seated feeling that the woman I thought I married wouldn't have done this.


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## syhoybenden

Listen to your gut.

Listen to your heart.

Your head is giving you a bum steer.


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## TDSC60

Constant lies and deception for 15 years is impossible to overlook. The fact that she promised to stop all contact then intentionally met with him for lunch, called him on the phone, and maintained email contact with him shows total disrespect for you.

Can you trust her to be a safe partner and consider you above her own need to feel validated by other men?


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## Lostinthought61

so what is your wife doing to try and regain your trust? what heavy lifting is she doing to keep you in the marriage?


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