# Ex being a d*ck



## EnjoliWoman

I decided to not hijack Dread Pirate Roberts thread with an update.

So we all know ex was diagnosed professionally as a narc on the high end of the spectrum. Years ago he moved from his condo in with his mother 40 miles away and I didn't even know for over a year even though he was to advise me of any change in address. Because rules don't apply to special people and narcs are always special.

I live right in between the house where kiddo was born and where she lived for several years before I left ex so same general area - within 5 miles or so. 

Kiddo was going to take her driving exam - the road test. Before she took it I sent him a nice email saying I was giving her my old car, a brief rundown of the maintenance that had been done and said it would be nice if he were to give her some gas money and help her with car maintenance.

Then after she got her license I found out this state has a multi-stage license progression (mine did not) and therefore she is only to drive to and from school, work and extracurricular activities for the next 6 months and only between 5am and 9pm. 

Meanwhile I mention to kiddo that I sent the email. Apparently they spoke about it because she said he wasn't going to give her gas money; that he'd been paying to drive to see her for 12 years. I replied that, while I respect the decision to live with an ailing elderly parent, it was his choice to move. That was all that was discussed on the topic.

So I sent a text to him notifying him that her license is only provisional for the next 6 months and that he needs to plan on picking her up as usual for his alternating weekends of visitation. He replied OK.

Now I suddenly get this long text message saying that it was obvious that making him pick her up was retaliatory because he wasn't going to pay to maintain a car that wasn't his; that he'd been footing the cost to transport her for 12 years and that he was going to file a motion to reduce support.

Now I was only thinking of handing her $20 every couple weeks (federal mileage reimbursement rate would be double that) and maybe paying for an occasional oil change, or if it needed a new battery... I wasn't thinking about a new transmission! I think he's just plain mad at himself for not being for successful - he's almost 60 and still driving the same vehicle as when we separated 12 years ago - of course I was, too, up until this month! But he's always the victim.

I did some research and it looks like in my state the cost of transportation for visitation is on the person who moves out of the court district (him); AND the cost of vehicle and insurance is calculated into child support. I have no idea what he earns but if he tries to calculate you can use a simple formula OR a long form. And I will INSIST on the long form because he pays nothing to live there - the household bills are paid with his mother's funds including the house and utilities. He is self employed and the only thing he pays for is his cell phone, internet and vehicle expenses, all of which are tax deductible for his business. Everything left is expendable. While I pay a mortgage and all of the utilities, for her cell phone at $120/month, tumbling at $65 a month, car insurance is $945 every 6 months for her... The long form means we list every bill we pay - everything coming in and going out. Even with the short form, counting insurance, etc. he is paying exactly what he should.

What an ass that he doesn't want to help keep the car safe for his daughter and pitch in a little gas money for driving 80 miles round trip. That's a lot of wear and tear on a car with 200K miles on it.


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## 3Xnocharm

Wow, he is seriously being a d!ck! God forbid he help out his own daughter! (which I can sooooo relate to!!) Hell, she is 16...she doesnt even HAVE to go see him if she doesnt want to! He may need to be reminded of this fact! And to try and lower support too?? I just have no words.... If she has to pay for her gas to go see him, then she can just stay put, or, he picks her up. End of discussion. Maybe its time to get your custody arrangement updated!


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## Yeswecan

I agree with you. He decided to move 80 miles away. I'm sure it was for his ailing/aging mother. However, his mother is the also the grandmother, correct? How is this relationship? 

Anyway, if I read this correctly your X was paying the next odd some years of transportation back and forth. Then let him. Why should hour daughter drive these 80 some odd miles? She is 16. I do not believe I would feel all that groovy letting my 16 year old daughter hit the road for 80 some odd miles. Specifically in a car with 200k on the clock. Let you X pick her up. The car your D is if around town IMO.


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## Ikaika

I hope you have a college fund for your daughter. If this is a problem, one can only imagine what will happen later on when it is time for the next important event in your daughter life.


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## EnjoliWoman

Thanks, guys - that only confirms I'm not the one thinking wrong.

I replied a very careful response:

"Beofre D16 went for her road test I didn't realize there were all of these provisional limits and that we'd have to keep a log of supervised driving. As to the cost of transportation for visitation, you moved out of the court district. You are responsible for the cost of transportation to, from and during your parenting time just as I am. Your choice resulted in an 80 mile round trip. At the federally allowable rate per mile that is $40. Whether you drive your vehicle or she drives hers, it's still your responsibility, not mine. I merely suggested you give it directly to her in the form of gas money or occasional minor maintenance. Regardless she cannot drive to [town] for your visitation legally under her provisional driver's license.

And by golly I just sent that and before I could tell you guys he wrote back saying he would have to familiarize himself with the law and he appreciate my response and that he wanted to feel like I was meeting him half way and not asking him to pay more than his fair share.

Maybe it will work itself out. I replied a friendly response. 

As to college - no money. I had to liquidate her college fun and my savings for the retainer and the psych eval when he petitioned for custody. My parents paid the rest. The whole bill to defend his action was $40K. I paid $5K to my attorney; $3K for my half of teh $6K psych eval. My parents paid $35K and ex has to pay $20K back over 6 years; I have to pay $15K back over six years. I send a check every month with is share of $278 and my share of $208. 

I will figure out how to get her into college even if it's all student loans and I help her pay them back. Unfortunately there's no "azzhole daddy scholarship".


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## 3Xnocharm

EnjoliWoman said:


> I will figure out how to get her into college even if it's all student loans and I help her pay them back. * Unfortunately there's no "azzhole daddy scholarship".*


Damn I wish there was...my kid would get a free ride all the way through!


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## EnjoliWoman

Yeswecan said:


> I agree with you. He decided to move 80 miles away. I'm sure it was for his ailing/aging mother. However, his mother is the also the grandmother, correct? How is this relationship?
> 
> Anyway, if I read this correctly your X was paying the next odd some years of transportation back and forth. Then let him. Why should hour daughter drive these 80 some odd miles? She is 16. I do not believe I would feel all that groovy letting my 16 year old daughter hit the road for 80 some odd miles. Specifically in a car with 200k on the clock. Let you X pick her up. The car your D is if around town IMO.


Grandmother is wonderful. I care about her, D cares about her - she's in her late 90s and decent health tho not very mobile and has some dementia. I'm glad D's visits brighten her days. But an hour is a long drive for a new driver and her license doesn't allow it. I was planning on her driving, though - divided highways, easy straight drive, has AAA and her cell phone, but found out it's not legal yet. Ex turned this into a personal vendetta instead of what it is - my realization that she isn't allowed to. I think now he realizes I wasn't being mean, I just didn't know until after she passed the road test.


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## Thundarr

Well he's consistent. From past comments I've read about him I would have been shocked to hear much different. And from past comments it's clear he's just saying crap to be saying it. You, him, and everyone who's read your older threads knows that he has no intention of petitioning anything. He'd probably end up paying more if he did anyway.


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## Cooper

Not to be a d**k like your ex but just to play devils advocate....

Yes I think dad should help pay to keep the car safe, that would be a responsible gesture on his part. BUT...the car is yours, in your name and yours to sell at any time. So over the next 6 months dad pays for new tires, brakes, exhaust, may be a new alternator, all typical maintenance and repairs expected. Then daughter gets a job and decides to buy something cooler than the old mom mobile, you sell the car, does dad get any of his money back? Maybe you roll that money into a new car, even so, in your ex's eyes the car that was worth $1500 dollars is now worth $3500 because of the money he put in it, his money, your car.

And frankly there is no reason to consider your daughter driving to visit dad, that's on him, let it stay that way. You had no right to ask him to pay for her gas so she can visit, that's kind of extortion. That's a topic he and your daughter should discuss when she is able to make that drive, "hey dad, I got the car now and can drive to your place, can you help me with some gas money?" 

Maybe a better alternative would be to barter with the ex, tell him you are giving her your old car but are willing to title it in his name if he maintains it for her, or maybe covers her insurance. And with a written contract that if the car is sold the money goes to your daughter or another car for your daughter. 

One last thing....what's your daughters responsibility in this? Giving her a car without the associated burdens of car ownership kind of lets her slide by on responsibility and teaches her nothing. She needs to have some sort of vested interest in this, maybe pays for some ownership, or insurance, at the very least her own gas. If that means she needs to get a part time job so much the better.

Enjoli I'm just shooting from the hip here, maybe my thoughts are way off base, but I certainly can see why he would be reluctant to just agree with what you ask, maybe after giving it some consideration he will offer some help.


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## 2ntnuf

I agree that he's being a ****. I also wondered why you didn't think to talk with him about giving her the care before you did it. I don't think he will take it to court. So what if he does. You will win.

In any case, he still should pick her up and may need a letter from the court to remind him of his obligations to see her and his responsibility to pick her up, if that's possible. 

Did you write that you are paying his obligation for some mental health test? Is he paying extra and you are paying the bill? Why? That's not your responsibility. I don't understand that part. Is he paying you more than he should? I'm missing something. 

As ****ish as the previous post reads, I think there is some wisdom there. I truly am sorry you are being inconvenienced like this. I hope you can work to cut those unnecessary problems from your life.


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## Pluto2

Good God what an A**! 

I completely disagree with Cooper (sorry Cooper) about offering to title the car in his name for DD use. He could then pull the car away from her without notice as a power trip over you or DD. You cannot reason with crazy.

My guess is that the threat of going back to modify CS was just an empty threat. You were discussing (and you were discussing there wasn't any extortion going on) an occurrence that could impact his wallet, so he wanted to do the same. Once he calmed down he realized it would cost him more in the long run.

I know numerous divorced couples who share a teen's transportation costs, one way or another. One covers the insurance and the other covers the maintenance, they take turns with gas money. They seem to think it is all part of being a parent. Your ex doesn't share.

One of my good friends was married to a narc, who ended up moving across the country. The visitation was brutal. He got every school holiday and all summer. Yes, he paid for the airfare, but they had to get her to an airport that was two hours away, never the local airport. I remember a few times he booked a 6pm flight when school got out at 4 and he filed a few motions when the child wasn't on the flight. Jerk. Anyway, he insisted that visitation like that continue until the child graduated HS, and did take them to court to enforce it. Now the daughter is 25 and doesn't have the time or money or inclination to fly across the country to visit Dad. You can see how deflated he is by the loss of power over this situation.


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## SamuraiJack

EnjoliWoman said:


> As to college - no money. I had to liquidate her college fun and my savings for the retainer and the psych eval when he petitioned for custody. My parents paid the rest. The whole bill to defend his action was $40K. I paid $5K to my attorney; $3K for my half of teh $6K psych eval. My parents paid $35K and ex has to pay $20K back over 6 years; I have to pay $15K back over six years. I send a check every month with is share of $278 and my share of $208.
> 
> I will figure out how to get her into college even if it's all student loans and I help her pay them back. Unfortunately there's no "azzhole daddy scholarship".


Wow, when I see numbers like that, it makes me glad my ex was only a "little narcissistic"

I found out our state had a step level driving system after my daughter passed. 
Being old school, I never thought about it possibly changing.


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## EnjoliWoman

Cooper said:


> Not to be a d**k like your ex but just to play devils advocate....
> 
> Yes I think dad should help pay to keep the car safe, that would be a responsible gesture on his part. BUT..
> 
> And frankly there is no reason to consider your daughter driving to visit dad, that's on him, let it stay that way. You had no right to ask him to pay for her gas so she can visit, that's kind of extortion. That's a topic he and your daughter should discuss when she is able to make that drive, "hey dad, I got the car now and can drive to your place, can you help me with some gas money?"
> 
> And with a written contract that if the car is sold the money goes to your daughter or another car for your daughter.
> 
> One last thing....what's your daughters responsibility in this?


Good points. I recognize my first email to him wasn't clear, probably exacerbating his typical knee-jerk response. I was _thinking_ more like an oil change here and there or perhaps a new battery when the time comes along with a $20 here and there to offset the expense that I am accruing by allowing her to drive the car to his place - an expense that should be his. But since I didn't specify maintenance, I can see where he would think suddenly I'm asking him to put money into something that is in my name.



2ntnuf said:


> I agree that he's being a ****. I also wondered why you didn't think to talk with him about giving her the care before you did it. I don't think he will take it to court. So what if he does. You will win.
> 
> Did you write that you are paying his obligation for some mental health test? Is he paying extra and you are paying the bill? Why? That's not your responsibility. I don't understand that part. Is he paying you more than he should? I'm missing something.


I didn't talk to him about the car beforehand, although I'm positive my daughter did. We bought the Honda Accord when kiddo was 2 and we were married and at that time, he said that it would run forever if well maintained and we could give it to her. He had even commented about the safety rating and front and side airbags. So it was always our intent to give it to her - I was just following through.

No, I am not paying for his mental health test. I asked for a court ordered psych eval for parental fitness and he said he would if I went through one, too. I agreed. The total cost was $6,000 and we each had to pay $3,000 up front at the first visit.

The reason we were in court in the first place was he filed a motion for full custody filled with lies and attack to my personal character and was alienating our daughter after she'd been in my primary care for 5 years. I knew he was a nutcase. After we got the report stating he "had narcissitic personality disorder so severe that even with long-term intensive therapy there was not likely to be any improvement" and the recommendation from kiddo's guardian ad litem that his visitation be reduced in stead of custody shifting to him, ex dropped the case and we settled out of court. Meanwhile, that whole action cost me $40K and my attorney and I weren't going to settle unless he defrayed a large portion of my expense in defending his bogus case. He agreed to reimburse me for half ($20K) and the judge ordered it paid back to me at no interest up until her 18th birthday month. He pays me, I combine my share and write a big old check for $486 to my parents every month to repay the loan they made to me for the legal expenses.



Pluto2 said:


> Good God what an A**!
> 
> I completely disagree with Cooper (sorry Cooper) about offering to title the car in his name for DD use. He could then pull the car away from her without notice as a power trip over you or DD. You cannot reason with crazy.
> 
> My guess is that the threat of going back to modify CS was just an empty threat. You were discussing (and you were discussing there wasn't any extortion going on) an occurrence that could impact his wallet, so he wanted to do the same. Once he calmed down he realized it would cost him more in the long run.
> 
> I know numerous divorced couples who share a teen's transportation costs, one way or another. One covers the insurance and the other covers the maintenance, they take turns with gas money. They seem to think it is all part of being a parent. Your ex doesn't share.


Yep you get it. Ex is awful with money. He promised her a Mustang when she turned 16. I always told her she'd get the Honda if the Mustang didn't pan out. Then it was to be a BMW Z4 (both perfect for a new driver). I don't trust him enough to sign it over to either of them. He would convince her to sell it and get something different and then one of them would owe a car payment, insurance would be higher, etc. I just foresee too many potential issues. This way I know the car, I know the maintenance (it's like new - I even had it painted 2 years ago just to keep it pristine - interior is perfect, etc.), it's not a hotrod (4cy) and safe. AND I can barely afford the insurance as it is. And this was what ex and I talked about years ago - I'm simply honoring our original plan.

I don't want her to have to work. I get the whole idea about responsibility and she will get a summer job but her 'job' right now is being a student and having some time to be a kid, too. 

So I hope he understands that I just don't want to finance his visitation transportation expense and instead of 'nickel and diming' him by "charging" mileage, I just thought he could toss her a $20 for gas when she visits and maybe every 4 months or so take it for an oil change or if the battery starts to go, take her to AutoZone for a new battery. That also let's him look like super dad taking care of his little girl instead of him reimbursing me and me taking care of it. He gets to be the hero. 

And even if he did take me to court I'm such an old pro at this. And I will not incur any more expense because of his mental illness. He WILL pay for my representation again. I've done the math and I've check the law and keep in touch with my attorney and run things past her AND the counselor still. I know where I stand I just am tired of not being able to talk like normal people. I don't call him because it ALWAYS (no exaggeration) ends up in him dredging up something. I have become the MASTER at "not engaging". Hence in writing only. However, it does leave room for misinterpretation like it did in this instance when I asked him to help with maintenance.


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## EnjoliWoman

Oh, and final note on this - we'll see if he helps her with the cost of transportation to his place but he argued that his place is her home for the weekend and it didn't click until my daughter argued it, too. Provisional license means driving to and from HOME to/from school - well driving to his place is driving home. So I'm letting her and she has to call when she leaves and when she arrives. If he doesn't help with gas, I will make her stop driving. Double edged sword because she will hate me for not letting her drive. He puts her in the middle and has her argue with me when he wants something - especially if he knows she wants it, too. And she wants to drive. He puts a lot of pressure on her.

On the positive flip-side, we were talking about a friend of hers who is going to live with the school counselor as a foster child when her Dad dies (he has cancer; mom already died of cancer). Kiddo said she LOVES this counselor and said if I died, she'd want to live with the counselor, too! I said "Well you still have your father!" She said "I'd still rather live with the counselor." So much for his prediction that she will hate me for limiting his visitation with him to the limits of the court order.


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## 3Xnocharm

EnjoliWoman said:


> On the positive flip-side, we were talking about a friend of hers who is going to live with the school counselor as a foster child when her Dad dies (he has cancer; mom already died of cancer). Kiddo said she LOVES this counselor and said if I died, she'd want to live with the counselor, too! I said "Well you still have your father!" She said "I'd still rather live with the counselor." So much for his prediction that she will hate me for limiting his visitation with him to the limits of the court order.


THIS says so much! My daughter has stated that if something happened to me, that she wants to live with my sister, NOT her dad! And yes, I have talked to my sister about it too!


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## SamuraiJack

EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't call him because it ALWAYS (no exaggeration) ends up in him dredging up something. I have become the MASTER at "not engaging". Hence in writing only.  However, it does leave room for misinterpretation like it did in this instance when I asked him to help with maintenance.


My ex was like this on many levels.
She would engage me about seemingly innocuos things, get me in a complacent sate and the casually drop something I know was wrong. For a while I fell for it as I narrowed her windows.

Finally I just got so damn tired of EVERYTHING being a possible trap and that I could never let my guard down...I just went black. 
Utterly dark.

Now if she calls she gets one word answers or the absolute bare minumum to communicate the thought.

Absolute. Bare. Minumum.


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## arbitrator

*Enjoli: Earnestly hoping that your Ex is not exactly this kind of "a D!ck!"*


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## Thundarr

A frustrating thing for me would be that you can't co-parent when the other parent is working against you. It's harder than doing it alone. In this case look how much money was vaporized by court fees. That's money that could have been used to insurance and a car now, and college later.

To make it more frustrating, if he's an extreme case where there's some biological imbalance or defect in his mind then you know that it's not going to change much. It will be a relief for you when your daughter is an adult so you don't have to deal with him much but then you'll still be burdened thinking about your daughter not being able to have a healthy relationship with her dad and the conflicts that might cause her throughout life.


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## Chuck71

EW...... have enjoyed your posts since joining TAM in 2012.

We don't agree all the time but roughly 95%. In this post.....

I'd love to have a drink with your ex...... give a few lessons in

being a man and a father. The gas it would take him to pick her up

is actually being saved if D16 drives to him. So why not cover that gas?

When my step son reached 16.... he wanted a sports car. I said not

no but he!! no. No 16 y/o needs a sports car (especially a guy). 

First car was to be an older car.... if he had a few fender benders.

One thing that is sad.... you were forced to vanquish her college

fund. I will rant here. When I started college... a JUCO... a full time

load (12 hours, anything over was free) with parking, etc. was $380.

The very same JUCO now... well a three credit class now costs $375.

Would not be that bad if wages quadrupled but we all are aware, at best

they might have doubled. Just a sad situation. There are ways to gather up

classes for free in other ways, be glad to explore that with you, if

you are interested. End rant. But yes.... he needs to step up and be a father.

Possibly a shared expense 50 / 50 but is it worth $45 to argue with

him for two weeks.... I get that. How would he react to it if the title

was in your name and your ex's... car can't be sold unless both sign.

Having it in your name OR his too... that is tricky. Some places

still require both signatures to sell but there are still a few that skate

it by with just one. Is your back story still on here?


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## GA HEART

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. Stories like this make me glad that my ex lives two states away from the kids (he moved) and doesn't really make much of an effort to see them at all. If I died, my older boys would likely emancipate themselves to keep from having to go stay with him. My youngest would have to go to him and wouldn't have a chance in the world....he would be forced to forget I ever existed.


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## Yeswecan

EnjoliWoman said:


> Grandmother is wonderful. I care about her, D cares about her - she's in her late 90s and decent health tho not very mobile and has some dementia. I'm glad D's visits brighten her days. But an hour is a long drive for a new driver and her license doesn't allow it. I was planning on her driving, though - divided highways, easy straight drive, has AAA and her cell phone, but found out it's not legal yet. Ex turned this into a personal vendetta instead of what it is - my realization that she isn't allowed to. I think now he realizes I wasn't being mean, I just didn't know until after she passed the road test.


And I tell you what...insurance for the new driver is outlandish.


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## Chuck71

Yeswecan said:


> And I tell you what...insurance for the new driver is outlandish.


In 1994 I was going to purchase a Camaro Z28...... insurance was to be 

$2400 per year. The coupe..... $1400. That decided what I bought. Sad


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## EnjoliWoman

Chuck71, no amount of reasoning will work with a narcissist. After his diagnosis I read everything I could get my hands on and the proverbial light bulb came on. Everything made so much sense!!! I now understood our entire dysfunctional marriage and felt such immense relief. I wasn't crazy, boring, stupid, etc etc etc.

As to college, I told her we'd make it happen somehow. Maybe he'll help, maybe his mother has a fund for her, maybe it will just be me. That's OK - we'll figure it out. Going to a college fair next weekend to learn more; we have a couple years but I need a head start. She's taking an AP class right now; there are some classes she can take at a community college where they count as HS credits, too. 

I'm not asking for anything from him as it relates to the car, just that he pays for the expense of her traveling to visit him. She just left and will text me when she arrives safely and we'll see if he gives her any gas money.


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## Lon

Hey EW, just reading this thread. That is a lot of long-haul driving for an inexperienced driver to be doing alone. Plus, all the costs of transportation don't include the valuation of her own time operating the vehicle. Have you considered sending her Greyhound instead? If you add in the fuel, maintenance, cost of ownership and all the extras it is probably not anymore expensive, plus it makes it easier to calculate the cost of the expense since you get a nice printed receipt. Not to mention it is a lot safer to travel by bus.


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## GA HEART

Not sure where in the SE you are.....I"m thanking the good Lord I'm in GA. My college bound kiddo can get the grants. They will help. Scholorships go unpaid ALL the time, for lack of applicants. 

And isn't insurance for kiddo drivers AWFUL??? I used all the tricks.....car is in my name, he's an occasional driver, his grades are good, and he took a defensive driving class. But my insurance more than doubled. Ouchie.


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## EnjoliWoman

No greyhound there from here, Lon. It's 40 miles/1 hour drive from here. He can drive it or he can pay for the gas and wear and tear at the allowable rate.

It's an easy drive - very little traffic, on road the whole way except a few turns at the start and the end. Divided highway with wide lanes, good roads, good visibility. She drove and did fine. I asked if he gave her any gas money and she said no. I did tell her that I wasn't going to pay for transportation for his visitation time and if he didn't start she wouldn't be allowed to drive there. Maybe she can reason with him. If he isn't willing to pony up some gas money, he'll have to pony up his own vehicle, time and gas. 

What's funny is I know he's been writing HIS trips off. He does business in the city and back when we BOTH lived with his mother at the beginning of our marriage, every time we went into the city - even if the primary reason was recreational - he would check his post office box for mail so he he could write off the mileage as a business. I know he's probably doing the same thing every time he came to pick her up. Yet for ME, that car/gas/upkeep is NOT tax deductible so even if he DOES reimburse us, it costs him less to drive himself.


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## Pluto2

I'm glad she made the trip without a problem. It is a bit scary to let them go on the first out-of-town drive.

The fact that he's willing to give up a deduction sure indicates to me that his refusal to help with gas is about power, not money. But I guess you already know that.


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## EnjoliWoman

OH yes, it's definitely about control.


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## 2ntnuf

Pluto2 said:


> I'm glad she made the trip without a problem. It is a bit scary to let them go on the first out-of-town drive.
> 
> The fact that he's willing to give up a deduction sure indicates to me that his refusal to help with gas is about power, not money. But I guess you already know that.


I think this is how I read the whole thing. It's all about who has the most say in who does what. Who can hurt the other most. Who is doing better or worse. Their daughter did the only thing she could. 

Who is going to pay for all the expenses that go along with this new used auto? I think your daughter should get a job so she can pay for at least some of it. She will now want to go out more with friends and be the driver. That will cost more. You will be asking for an increase in support. What is the best way to teach that we don't get anything for free in this life, no matter how much mummy and daddy make? 

I'm not begrudging you the support, just the odd way it seems to be coming about. I know it will come up. It's the next step. Sometimes I think the courts don't understand that now there are actually three households to take care of instead of one.


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## SamuraiJack

EnjoliWoman said:


> OH yes, it's definitely about control.


Yep. I told my ex I would put money towards a car for my daughter IF I was able to inspect it first and bring it to a mechanic. I told her if she bought one without my help, that she would be responsible for all the repairs.

She paid 2000 ( with the help from her mother) for a 1999 VW Bug.
So far she has put over 3500 into the car...

But she HAD to have that control.

Narc's always do.


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## EnjoliWoman

2ntnuf said:


> I think this is how I read the whole thing. It's all about who has the most say in who does what. Who can hurt the other most. Who is doing better or worse. Their daughter did the only thing she could.
> 
> Who is going to pay for all the expenses that go along with this new used auto? I think your daughter should get a job so she can pay for at least some of it. She will now want to go out more with friends and be the driver. That will cost more. You will be asking for an increase in support. What is the best way to teach that we don't get anything for free in this life, no matter how much mummy and daddy make?
> 
> I'm not begrudging you the support, just the odd way it seems to be coming about. I know it will come up. It's the next step. Sometimes I think the courts don't understand that now there are actually three households to take care of instead of one.


I was absorbing the cost because it's my old car. I don't want her to get a job. This summer, yes, but not now - an AP class, Biology and Spanish II all have a lot of homework and are difficult for her. And I have already told her to get a change purse or envelope or something to put in the console and get gas money from anyone she is giving a ride to (she already did) because I'm not paying for her to be a taxi. She can then use that cash to put gas in the car.

I don't need more child support for it. Yes, my having to buy a car for ME is additional expense and the blue book on the old one I gave her is about 4K but the only expense I incurred was insurance at about $157/month plus the gas for her to drive to school (5 miles one way). 

When I include that in the child support calculator using my current salary and a good guess at his, he is paying the right amount. She no longer competes in gymnastics which used to cost $250/month; instead I have insurance, a tank of gas per month and tumbling class (to keep her floor skills) which combined runs $262. (Of course now I have my 'new' used car to pay for and insurance for that in addition but that has nothing to do with support but it does mean less latitude in the budget.)

The ONLY thing I'm asking him for is that I don't pay for the transportation costs for his visitation weekends. Previously he drove two round trips - one to pick her up; one to bring her back. Now I'm only asking that he pitch in an amount around the allowable mileage reimbursement rate which is .51 per mile/$40 a weekend for one round trip (there on Friday; back on Sunday). 

WHY he finds that so wrong, I don't know. I figured maybe I worded it in a way that triggered a negative response. But instead of 'billing' him for mileage, I just thought giving her a $20 and occasionally an oil change or something, we could call that even. He doesn't seem to think he should be responsible for paying for transportation to his place now that she is driving.


----------



## 2ntnuf

EnjoliWoman said:


> I was absorbing the cost because it's my old car. I don't want her to get a job. This summer, yes, but not now - an AP class, Biology and Spanish II all have a lot of homework and are difficult for her. And I have already told her to get a change purse or envelope or something to put in the console and get gas money from anyone she is giving a ride to (she already did) because I'm not paying for her to be a taxi. She can then use that cash to put gas in the car.
> 
> I don't need more child support for it. Yes, my having to buy a car for ME is additional expense and the blue book on the old one I gave her is about 4K but the only expense I incurred was insurance at about $157/month plus the gas for her to drive to school (5 miles one way).
> 
> When I include that in the child support calculator using my current salary and a good guess at his, he is paying the right amount. She no longer competes in gymnastics which used to cost $250/month; instead I have insurance, a tank of gas per month and tumbling class (to keep her floor skills) which combined runs $262. (Of course now I have my 'new' used car to pay for and insurance for that in addition but that has nothing to do with support but it does mean less latitude in the budget.)
> 
> The ONLY thing I'm asking him for is that I don't pay for the transportation costs for his visitation weekends. Previously he drove two round trips - one to pick her up; one to bring her back. Now I'm only asking that he pitch in an amount around the allowable mileage reimbursement rate which is .51 per mile/$40 a weekend for one round trip (there on Friday; back on Sunday).
> 
> WHY he finds that so wrong, I don't know. I figured maybe I worded it in a way that triggered a negative response. But instead of 'billing' him for mileage, I just thought giving her a $20 and occasionally an oil change or something, we could call that even. He doesn't seem to think he should be responsible for paying for transportation to his place now that she is driving.


Well, I see what you are getting at. You want her to have the ability to go out when she wants without it being a burden on you. That's not unreasonable. The times have changed. When we were kids, it didn't cost nearly as much and I had to borrow mum and dad's car if I wanted to go anywhere. It gave me a little time to myself and friends, but it still let me know who was in charge.

I know he had a determination that he was a narcissist. I get that if he felt like he had some say in what she was doing, instead of having to talk with you about it, he might feel a little better. I guess if he really didn't like her driving, he would have picked her up. So, I imagine that the only variable that causes him to act this way is the interaction he has with you. He may even feel like you and the courts are controlling his money, which, really you are with the backing of the courts. It can't be easy for a narc, right?

I guess there is no solution, just force. I'm betting that there are a whole bunch of divorced men who must be narcs. I hear you, though. It isn't right that you can't make decisions without his financial help or approval. He's not making it easy. He seems to be trying to do the same, but it's not possible when he has an ex-wife and a child. He can't accept that and his behavior will only get him in trouble with the courts. He must feel as trapped as you do to find a way to prove he loves his daughter without it looking like the courts are forcing him. 

I feel bad for both of you, but your daughter will be the one most confused. The whole thing saddens me.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

2ntnuf said:


> Well, I see what you are getting at. You want her to have the ability to go out when she wants without it being a burden on you. That's not unreasonable. The times have changed. When we were kids, it didn't cost nearly as much and I had to borrow mum and dad's car if I wanted to go anywhere. It gave me a little time to myself and friends, but it still let me know who was in charge.
> 
> I know he had a determination that he was a narcissist. I get that if he felt like he had some say in what she was doing, instead of having to talk with you about it, he might feel a little better. I guess if he really didn't like her driving, he would have picked her up. So, I imagine that the only variable that causes him to act this way is the interaction he has with you. He may even feel like you and the courts are controlling his money, which, really you are with the backing of the courts. It can't be easy for a narc, right?
> *
> I guess there is no solution, just force.* I'm betting that there are a whole bunch of divorced men who must be narcs. I hear you, though. It isn't right that you can't make decisions without his financial help or approval. He's not making it easy. He seems to be trying to do the same, but it's not possible when he has an ex-wife and a child. He can't accept that and his behavior will only get him in trouble with the courts. He must feel as trapped as you do to find a way to prove he loves his daughter without it looking like the courts are forcing him.
> 
> I feel bad for both of you, but your daughter will be the one most confused. The whole thing saddens me.


Really?? :scratchhead: No one is FORCING this a$$hole to do ANYTHING! Well except for the mandated child support. For crying out loud, all she is asking for is some gas money that he would have been paying anyway to drive his OWN car to transport her back and forth! And maybe an oil change or battery here and there...her having the car benefits him as much as it does the daughter, really, even though it shouldnt. He should still come and pick her up for his weekends, I think her driving herself there and back is bullsh!t, personally. I have to deal with the same kind of ex, I drove my daughter to his house and back on his weekends because he is a whiny, self centered ass, and it was easier on my kid for me to drive her. 

I dont feel a damn ounce of sympathy for this man, especially knowing how he tried to turn EW's daughter against her in the past.


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## Rowan

EnjoliWoman said:


> As to college, I told her we'd make it happen somehow. Maybe he'll help, maybe his mother has a fund for her, maybe it will just be me. That's OK - we'll figure it out. Going to a college fair next weekend to learn more; we have a couple years but I need a head start. She's taking an AP class right now; there are some classes she can take at a community college where they count as HS credits, too.


Just thought I'd throw this out there: If she tests well, look into CLEP tests. Different schools may award differing numbers of hours or credits for them, but if her chosen school accepts them, it's a good way to go. I CLEP'd two English/literature courses, two US histories, two world histories, and algebra. With the AP Government and AP German credits from high school, I started college as a sophomore. The tests were _much_ cheaper than taking the college courses would have been - about $60 each, although I think it's a little more now.


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## 2ntnuf

3Xnocharm said:


> Really?? :scratchhead: No one is FORCING this a$$hole to do ANYTHING! Well except for the mandated child support. For crying out loud, all she is asking for is some gas money that he would have been paying anyway to drive his OWN car to transport her back and forth! And maybe an oil change or battery here and there...her having the car benefits him as much as it does the daughter, really, even though it shouldnt. He should still come and pick her up for his weekends, I think her driving herself there and back is bullsh!t, personally. I have to deal with the same kind of ex, I drove my daughter to his house and back on his weekends because he is a whiny, self centered ass, and it was easier on my kid for me to drive her.
> 
> I dont feel a damn ounce of sympathy for this man, especially knowing how he tried to turn EW's daughter against her in the past.


I'm sorry I triggered you.

I don't know how it benefits him? I could be missing something.

If her daughter driving herself there and back is bull**** in your words, how is it benefiting and who is it benefiting?

So, he may feel forced to pay for things, by your own admission, even if it is his responsibility and he has every intention of paying? I do get that he has a responsibility to his daughter. I get that divorce places an unimaginable burden on the parents. What would that do to a known narc? How could Enjoli handle things like this better the next time, so his antics don't cause such pain in their lives? Force? 

I get that the children of divorced parents suffer most. They have very little, to no say. It's very sad. I feel bad for their daughter. She's in the middle of this.


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## Pluto2

2ntnuf, the ex gets the benefit of two hours of not being on the road and lack of wear and tear on his vehicle. That seems fairly obvious.


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## 2ntnuf

Pluto2 said:


> 2ntnuf, the ex gets the benefit of two hours of not being on the road and lack of wear and tear on his vehicle. That seems fairly obvious.


How is it a benefit if he is worrying about his daughter driving by herself and he has to pay for the gas and wear and tear on her car? That's not clear at all. Enjoli said he can right off his expenses.


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## SamuraiJack

I cant imagine such a small thing get in the way. 20 bucks for gas, not having to drive and the best part...my daughter getting better at driving and being independant.

EnjoliWoman...your ex is a great big feminine hygeine product one might use on a Summer's eve...and the bag too.


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## Rowan

SamuraiJack said:


> EnjoliWoman...your ex is a great big feminine hygeine product one might use on a Summer's eve...and the bag too.


Someone's a BBT fan!


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## GTdad

He sure is a d*ck. Or a feminine hygiene product. Maybe even both. 

Your daughter being 16, I hope it's some small comfort that the day is approaching when you'll never have any reason to speak to him again.


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## Yeswecan

Don't discount getting her Associates Degree at the community college. Then look to complete the Bachelors Degree(last 2 years) at a 4 year institution. It makes very little sense to me to pay $10k+ per semester for the basic college courses that a fully accredited community college can offer. 

You mentioned your daughter is currently in gymnastics or was. Look for a college that offers financial assistance(scholarships!) if your young adult participates in a sport such as gymnastics or related competitive sport activities.



https://www.collegeboard.org/


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## Pluto2

2ntnuf said:


> How is it a benefit if he is worrying about his daughter driving by herself and he has to pay for the gas and wear and tear on her car? That's not clear at all. Enjoli said he can right off his expenses.


Have you ever had to deal with a narcissist? The reason I ask is because I don't believe he would worry about her driving by herself. Narcissists don't often feel empathy.


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## EnjoliWoman

I don't see what you don't get 2ntnuf.

He doesn't mind her driving - he WANTS her to. He isn't worried. He hasn't mentioned her safety or the long drive. 

Yes he has most likely been writing off his mileage when he came to pick her up and he still COULD he just doesn't WANT to. Nor does he want to pay for her to drive to see him.

He has ONLY complained that I asked him to help offset the cost of her driving to see him. After all, HE moved out of the county, not me. If he lived in town, it wouldn't be an issue at all.

He just doesn't want to contribute to the cost of transportation. I was fine letting him toss her a $20 here and there and helping out with an oil change or so instead of me providing the gas, car, wear and tear on a 14 year old car (even well maintained it's still 14 years old and the fewer the miles the better). 

So I'm not asking for more than what is allowed for anyone else getting mileage reimbursement in this country. But he doesn't even want to do that. 

I didn't HAVE to give her the car. My insurance would have still gone up; his child support would still be correct. He would still have to come and get her. I did this for HER and to honor our plan we made YEARS ago when we bought the car.

In the end it IS our daughter who will suffer because he's forcing her to be in the middle. He's either making me absorb the cost of transportation to a neighboring down OR trying to make me look like the bad guy by not letting her drive the car. And the only reason I see is control. 

He's thinking "I already pay her $X per month, she doesn't need any more of my money". He's not putting this in the context of "I already pay $X to transport D16 - this saves me the trouble and two round trips."


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## Lon

Enjoli, I think you are doing the right thing by not occurring the cost for him to have a visit with her. If he doesn't want to pay the cost then I guess he is turning down the opportunity to visit his daughter.

My gf's daughter moved in with her along with her newborn. The baby's father lives 3 hours away by highway, he claims he wants custody but in reality he is unqualified, he is also trying to claim that the baby's mom kidnapped/abducted her, however that is not so since he knows where she is, has not been denied any visitation and will be reasonably accommodated if he decides to come spend time with his daughter. It does not mean she has to make it easy for him, nor can he demand she bring the child all that distance, and incur the cost of doing so. No different if it's an infant vs. a teenager.


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## EnjoliWoman

Thanks Lon - he can still see her and do what he's been doing for the past 10 years - pick her up and bring her back - because he was the one who moved. Our meeting place has been the same or close to the same for over 10 years, even after he moved away 6+ years ago. 

I can see why your GFs daughter moved - she needed help and he wasn't going to give it to her.


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## 2ntnuf

If you think I'm saying you should pay for your daughter's father to see her, you have misunderstood.

The way I understand it, you have told your ex that he can pay for your car, that you have given to your daughter. First thing in my mind is, did you put it in her name or is it in both your names? If both, you can later claim he can afford to pay you more in support because he is doing that for the car. 

You give him the option of helping pay for the gas and upkeep on that car, whose ownership is likely in your name, since she is under 18, and coming to visit him on her own,

or,

He can pay for the upkeep on the car, which is in your name and therefore not her's, and some gasoline, and he can come and pick her up to see her. 

Is there a non-custodial parent here that doesn't see the problem with that? The car isn't the daughter's. It's your's Enjoli. So, all you have to do is keep receipts of what he has paid for and turn them in to the court and they will force him to pay more, since you have proven he can. You said he is at the top of what he can pay. That must be important to you, or you would not have even cared to look it up, If your concern was just for your daughter to have some fun by being able to drive to places with her friends.

Of course, he is a narcissist and that makes any decision okay. By the way, I really don't have anything against you or your daughter. I wish you all the best. I just see through the bullcrap being served on a platter. Like I said, if I'm mistaken, I apologize profusely. I have not seen any reason that I am wrong. 

Take notice of the suggestions you are receiving after my previous comment. Interesting....Good luck to your daughter. She is the loser in all of this. You can't keep her from realizing what is going on and suffering from it. I'm sorry for all of you.


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## Pluto2

Sorry, but I think you are way off-base here.

And yes, you actually are telling Enjoli that she should pay for her ex's visitation. The visitation agreement is binding, and I venture to say the ex is unwilling to forgo visitation. Enjoli has made a vehicle available for DD's use and has asked/requested that DD's father contribute. That is what regular parents do. Enjoli is NOT asking that he pay all gas money for DD's use of the car. If she had, you're concern for her BS would be more valid.
That is not what she is doing.

And I'm not sure how CS is handling in EnjoliWoman's state, but at least in mine, keeping the receipts for the extra transportation expenses of a teen would be disregarded by the courts. All my court looks at is income, health insurance and child care costs. So my ex can completely laugh me out of court if I tried what you are suggesting. I say that acknowledging that every state applies a different system for determining CS, and like I said, I don't know what your state or EnjoliWoman's state does.


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## EnjoliWoman

2ntnuf said:


> If you think I'm saying you should pay for your daughter's father to see her, you have misunderstood.



You misunderstood. Perhaps that is the problem with the ex - maybe he misunderstood as well.



> The way I understand it, you have told your ex that he can pay for your car, that you have given to your daughter. First thing in my mind is, did you put it in her name or is it in both your names? If both, you can later claim he can afford to pay you more in support because he is doing that for the car.


The car is paid for. I paid it off years ago. I have given it to my daughter but you are correct; it is in my name. Because I don't want him to convince her to trade it in on something. He tends to make poor financial decisions, often biting off too much. We had two houses and one car repossessed during our marriage. I am solvent with a good credit score and it took a long time to fix the mess he made. 

I have no intention of claiming he can afford to pay more in support. There is a calculator, period. He currently pays the correct amount. He doesn't have to pay anything FOR the car - I only asked that he help with gas and maintenance because she would be using it to visit him. I made it clear on the second rounds of communication because he read it the same as you - that I expected him to pick up ALL maintenance. No - just in exchange for letting her burn gas and add wear and tear, could he pitch in gas money because of her drive to see him and an occasional small thing like an oil change. 



> You give him the option of helping pay for the gas and upkeep on that car, whose ownership is likely in your name, since she is under 18, and coming to visit him on her own,
> 
> or,


Yes... upkeep being an oil change or other small item like a battery was my example..



> *He can pay for the upkeep on the car, which is in your name and therefore not her's, and some gasoline, and he can come and pick her up to see her. *


*No. The other option is to pay nothing at all - no gas or upkeep at all - just that he has to come and get her like he has for the past 10 years instead of having her drive an hour to see him.*



> Is there a non-custodial parent here that doesn't see the problem with that? The car isn't the daughter's. It's your's Enjoli. So, all you have to do is keep receipts of what he has paid for and turn them in to the court and they will force him to pay more, since you have proven he can. You said he is at the top of what he can pay. That must be important to you, or you would not have even cared to look it up, If your concern was just for your daughter to have some fun by being able to drive to places with her friends.
> 
> Of course, he is a narcissist and that makes any decision okay. By the way, I really don't have anything against you or your daughter. I wish you all the best. I just see through the bullcrap being served on a platter. Like I said, if I'm mistaken, I apologize profusely. I have not seen any reason that I am wrong.


I don't see why you think I'm can or will to take him to court to make him pay more when there is set formula. This has ZERO bearing on how much he is ordered to pay. He pays what the calculator says, period. I have run it several times over the past 10 years to make sure it's still fair (usually when he complains) and it hasn't varied much. Early on, there was daycare (and I settled for $50 less, actually), later there was competitive gymnastics. Now there is car insurance. Each factors in; each is pretty equal. 



> Take notice of the suggestions you are receiving after my previous comment. Interesting....Good luck to your daughter. She is the loser in all of this. You can't keep her from realizing what is going on and suffering from it. I'm sorry for all of you.


You are right, she is the one who looses a little bit of freedom. She realizes that I gave her a car worth $4,000 and am paying a big sum in insurance. I could have kept the car and let her ask for the keys once in a while like a lot of kids - keep taking her to school and let the bus bring her home. She truly appreciates the car. She argued that her father has been 'paying' to drive to pick her up for years, as if it's my turn to foot the bill for transportation during his visitation. No doubt her father told her that. I merely replied that I wasn't going to pay for her father to see her and that he could continue to pick her up and make the drive every Friday and Sunday. 

I was aiming for something very informal and cooperative. He turned this into exactly what you seem to see, too - some devious act to make him pay pay pay. It's not. I incur an expense. If I had to drive her myself in my car I'd ask for mileage. Kiddo is driving herself in my car. I'm asking for mileage. Or he can drive his car and pay his own mileage. The only variance in the equation is the car and driver but not who bear the burden of the cost of transportation. 

If he wants to see her, he'll keep picking her up. Or he can reimburse the mileage. HE WAS THE ONE WHO MOVED AN HOUR AWAY. And I'm asking he gives it to HER, not to me! Give your kid some gas money for driving an hour to come see you azzhat. How hard is that?


----------



## Thundarr

2ntnuf said:


> The way I understand it, you have told your ex that he can pay for your car, that you have given to your daughter. First thing in my mind is, did you put it in her name or is it in both your names? If both, you can later claim he can afford to pay you more in support because he is doing that for the car.
> 
> You give him the option of helping pay for the gas and upkeep on that car, whose ownership is likely in your name, since she is under 18, and coming to visit him on her own,
> 
> or,
> 
> He can pay for the upkeep on the car, which is in your name and therefore not her's, and some gasoline, and he can come and pick her up to see her.
> 
> Is there a non-custodial parent here that doesn't see the problem with that? The car isn't the daughter's. It's your's Enjoli. So, all you have to do is keep receipts of what he has paid for and turn them in to the court and they will force him to pay more, since you have proven he can. You said he is at the top of what he can pay. That must be important to you, or you would not have even cared to look it up, If your concern was just for your daughter to have some fun by being able to drive to places with her friends.
> 
> Of course, he is a narcissist and that makes any decision okay. By the way, I really don't have anything against you or your daughter. I wish you all the best. I just see through the bullcrap being served on a platter. Like I said, if I'm mistaken, I apologize profusely. I have not seen any reason that I am wrong.
> 
> Take notice of the suggestions you are receiving after my previous comment. Interesting....Good luck to your daughter. She is the loser in all of this. You can't keep her from realizing what is going on and suffering from it. I'm sorry for all of you.


There's a less complicated and less adversarial way to see this. My youngest son lived with his mom when he started driving so he was driving one of her cars and was on her insurance. Even though I missed the car time together, I still understood that him driving was saving me money and costing her money so I helped with gas or minor repairs because it seemed like the obvious right thing to do. Our oldest son was the opposite because he lived with me and drove my vehicle. She gave him gas to get back and forth to her house without me asking as well. That just seems so much better than keeping score.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry, but I think you are way off-base here.
> 
> And yes, you actually are telling Enjoli that she should pay for her ex's visitation. The visitation agreement is binding, and I venture to say the ex is unwilling to forgo visitation. Enjoli has made a vehicle available for DD's use and has asked/requested that DD's father contribute. That is what regular parents do. Enjoli is NOT asking that he pay all gas money for DD's use of the car. If she had, you're concern for her BS would be more valid.
> That is not what she is doing.
> 
> And I'm not sure how CS is handling in EnjoliWoman's state, but at least in mine, keeping the receipts for the extra transportation expenses of a teen would be disregarded by the courts. All my court looks at is income, health insurance and child care costs. So my ex can completely laugh me out of court if I tried what you are suggesting. I say that acknowledging that every state applies a different system for determining CS, and like I said, I don't know what your state or EnjoliWoman's state does.


Re my state - you are correct. The things that factor are: income, health insurance, child care and certain large extraneous expenses which include things like private school tuition (both parents have to agree to the private school or the child had to attend prior to divorce), vehicle insurance, other special training and travel (like a kid on the olympic track - personal trainers, travel, etc. associated with something like that). That's all. It goes into a calculator along with how many nights the child spends with each parent and the result is there in black and white. It has been right at what he pays. And I absorb the first $250 of out of pocket medical expenses.

The only way to deviate from the standard calculator is by doing the 'long form' where each party lists every monthly expense. If he drug me back to court I'd want to go this route because I know how he does his books. His company pays for everything (phone, computer, internet, vehicle) and he lives with his mother so his net income is all disposable except for what he pays for groceries, toiletries and clothing.

My net income has to cover the same food, clothing and personal items* plus* mortgage, utilities, cell phone, etc.


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## EnjoliWoman

Thundarr said:


> There's a less complicated and less adversarial way to see this. My youngest son lived with his mom when he started driving so he was driving one of her cars and was on her insurance. Even though I missed the car time together, I still understood that him driving was saving me money and costing her money so I helped with gas or minor repairs because it seemed like the obvious right thing to do. Our oldest son was the opposite because he lived with me and drove my vehicle. She gave him gas to get back and forth to her house without me asking as well. That just seems so much better than keeping score.


How lovely. Considerate, fair. That's all I'm asking for. I don't want to keep score, that's why I didn't outline specifics. I thought common sense would apply. 

I know I drop that he's a narc a lot but if you have dealt with one, you realize the difference it makes. He will always be right. He will always be the victim. I will always be evil with evil intent and try to stick it to him at every turn. That's just his view. I'm really pretty even keel and reasonable. I would love the above arrangement. But I only have the one child and I'm only asking that I not foot the bill for the visit and if he'd rather come pick her up, no problem - I'd rather she not be on the road for an hour in a car that is 13 years old with 200K miles. That car needs to last her at LEAST until my car is paid off - 5 years. (BTW I bought a used hybrid - list price 15,500; 16,500 with tax.) Then I can pass that one on or help her get something better.


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## Pluto2

EnjoliWoman said:


> Re my state - you are correct. The things that factor are: income, health insurance, child care and certain large extraneous expenses which include things like private school tuition (both parents have to agree to the private school or the child had to attend prior to divorce), vehicle insurance, other special training and travel (like a kid on the olympic track - personal trainers, travel, etc. associated with something like that). That's all. It goes into a calculator along with how many nights the child spends with each parent and the result is there in black and white. It has been right at what he pays. And I absorb the first $250 of out of pocket medical expenses.
> 
> The only way to deviate from the standard calculator is by doing the 'long form' where each party lists every monthly expense. If he drug me back to court I'd want to go this route because I know how he does his books. His company pays for everything (phone, computer, internet, vehicle) and he lives with his mother so his net income is all disposable except for what he pays for groceries, toiletries and clothing.
> 
> My net income has to cover the same food, clothing and personal items* plus* mortgage, utilities, cell phone, etc.


Double check any changes in the state CS guidelines. My state recently revised them so that the custodial parent is no longer stuck with the first $250 of out-of-pocket meds. No everything is to be shared. They also updated the support obligations for the first time in about a decade, so some folks will get more, and some will get less.


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## Thundarr

EnjoliWoman said:


> I know I drop that he's a narc a lot but if you have dealt with one, you realize the difference it makes. He will always be right. He will always be the victim. I will always be evil with evil intent and try to stick it to him at every turn. That's just his view. I'm really pretty even keel and reasonable.


I think you did all you could do Enjoli. You asked for him to share the new expense and didn't even ask him to share much of it. Instead of him being cooperative, he turned it into a conflict because he's the perpetual victim. What else can you do other than attempt to be fair and respectful. 

I believe my ex could be very self centered yet she and I navigated things like this well. It's just another sign that your ex is extreme and it wouldn't have matter how you approached this. He would have found something wrong.


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