# Lost...



## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

I don't know where to begin, so I will start with some background I guess.

I am 43, and my wife is 42. We have two beautiful daughters, whom we both love and adore to death, ages 6 and 4. My wife is from Spain, and I am from the US. We reside in the US.

Our marriage has had it's ups and downs, it's good times and its bad times I suppose. The only real incident was early on in our marriage (5 year mark?). We are married 16 years this past July 7. Around that time, there was financial woes and we were always fighting, and strongly considered divorce. We stuck it out and stayed together though and continued on with things.

I will be one of the first to admit that I have not given my wife the attention that she deserves, having spent my time online gaming and being distracted from what is really important, our marriage. I have stopped that destructive behavior in favor of spending more time on us, as I noticed that my wife was growing more distant. This was about 9 months ago that I quit with the gaming.

Ramp up to February of this year when I start to notice that she is on Facebook more and more, having found a bunch of her family and old friends back in Spain. Chatting and what not. At the time, this was great as she didn't have many close friends here of her own culture and it kept her at home and with the kids to be able to communicate with her friends more readily.

You can probably already see where this is going. Fast forward to the evening of July 13. No, the afternoon. I discover that the radio station that my wife listens to all the time has an application that can be loaded on her iphone. Since we are going on a trip to Colorado the next day, I though this might be nice for her to have. I ask for her phone so I could put it on for her but it won't load. (I found out later that her phone was too full of photos and videos to have space for it).

So I go the next route, which was to plug it in and put the app on via itunes. I forgot that my computer auto-imports the photos/videos. At this point, the world is unicorns and rainbows. Getting ready to go on vacation, nothing wrong. I get the app installed and give her back her phone. Then for grins, I start to go through her pictures and videos that had been imported. Great shots of the kids, some videos of them eating breakfast etc.

Then the pictures became less and less (going in chronological order) of the kids, and more and more of her. Then the video.

The video is in Spanish, and at best, my Spanish is limited to pretty good when written, spotty when audible. The issue isn't that it is in Spanish (which is odd, she speaks fluent English), it is that she is in her robe (kinda sleek) and she's talking as if she is speaking with someone in particular.

I watch the video about a million times and do the best transcribing and translation that I can, but the jist of it is "this is all you can see because a divorce is very serious" (with her tilting the video to show her front (robed).

So, in addition to the sudden migrane from the alarm bells going off in my head, I start frantically searching through the pictures and videos.

No more videos, but there are pictures of her in various stages of undress, all the way down to topless. And pretty much no pictures of the kids on her phone after May.

Now, I work in IT, I run my own network at home, and I have the ability to pull pretty much anything off of any computer in this house, and I commence to do just that.

First I go for the emails. This video had me scouring every memory I have had of interactions with her. One of them was "how do I turn off the notification emails from facebook?" right after her boob and nose job in late June. Oh christ. I get into her email (thank you google mail for making copies of everything) and run a filter search on "facebook" and forward it all to my account (via web). I start searching. There are several private fb messages with 2 or 3 (I can't say exactly right now, looking at them gets me shaking) different "hombres". They are sexually explicit and wholly inappropriate.

By this time, it is about 9pm the night before a long drive, but damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. I confront her: "Who in the hell is OM1, and why did he say "explicit Spanish phrase" to you in a private message?" While you are at it, tell me about "explicit phrase" from OM2.

Her (demanding): Why are you reading my Facebook and email?

We argued for the next 3 hours, her threatening to not go on the trip, explaining that "it's nothing but friends chatting", and "what about you not paying attention to me over your game for so many years". From what I've read here over the past few days, the classic behavior one would expect.

We end up going on the trip, end up not somehow killing one another (for the kids!), and I actually start to lose a LOT of weight (another one of her complaints, I'm not attractive). I guess it's a variation of "The Blackberry Diet" (Google that, it's a great read). We didn't really delve deep into what was going on, as I had more than a suspicion that I misinterpreted the Spanish (having only Google translate as an assistant), which was one of her arguments ("You are taking it all out of context!" - This is important).

We've had our spats since returning on the 18th of July, I put things into place to keep an eye on her activities, and things have come up that have resulted in fights. I've tried to insist that she unfriend and block these people, she won't, claiming that they are only friends and nothing is going on.

She belongs to a closed group on Facebook (of which I am not a member) that shares jokes and joke pictures. Most of it is pretty harmless, but there are occasions where the posts turn sexual and the banter amongst the members turns to innuendo and what seems like harmless fun.

I told her the private messages and emails need to cease immediately. If it can't be said in public in plain view of everyone, then it doesn't need to be said. From what I can see, she has remained true to that promise.

I have a real hard time letting this all go. I don't even know what to classify what happened. Horseplay that spilled over from her joke group into private messaging? But then what of the video and those pictures?

She has never admitted to having an affair, beyond the "you don't treat me the way I need to be treated" excuse she gave earlier.

I see absolutely no remorse beyond her being sorry she got caught.

I don't want to lose her. I think that is why I keep seeing things that set me off.

She told her friend to hide a post from me because her and OM1 were commenting back and forth and she didn't want me to see it. Doesn't want me to see it because I will get mad (she's protecting my feelings?) or doesn't want me to see it because I will get mad (because I caught her doing something).

Well, too late, I already saw the posts, and they were innocuous, just talking back and forth about what part of Spain the funniest Spanish comedians come from.

I'm sorry this is so Tolstoy, and I realize I'm rambling. It is a reflection of my state of thought I suppose.

Our current situation is one of guarded pins and needles I think. Neither of us wants to do anything that sets the other one off: Her thinking my actions reflect me being too controlling, Me thinking every little Facebook post has hidden meaning.

I want so much to believe that there is nothing there, there was nothing more than a brief moment of flirting (video).

I'm somewhat afraid of the replies that I'm going to get, but bring them on. I need healing. I want to save my marriage. How do I get past this?


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

Don't let her go on vacation or visit anyone in Spain. These are big red flags. The two of you need to start talking to one another now.

You work in IT right? Has she got an IPhone or a Droid? If it's an IPhone there are some good instructions on Shamwow's thread about getting into the deleted text records. If it is Android download a copy of TestDisk Photo Recovery (free download) and unerase her entire SD Card. Use that program to also unerase any other hard drive / flash memory equiped device in your house.

Check her phone bills. This is a must.

Insist in transparancy. Get facebook passwords and email passwords. If she is not willing to give you these things she is hiding something. There is no excuse for a spouse to refuse to share information like this....no excuse at all.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

There is a LOT more you don't know about. 

So find out. 

Red flags all over, dear.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

What your wife was doing with the pictures and her conversations with other men is wholly inappropriate, she knows it , you know it and anyone else looking at them knows it. I suspect she is looking for attention from other men, with support from some her friends . Experience says this behaviour is the the start of the slippery slope to an affair. 

Set the boundaries of contact with OM , if she disagrees she obviously has no problem with you mailing those pics to her family and yours. Be firm and do not doubt yourself , if she is practicing deceit then she is hiding something or up to no good.

If she talks about her privacy then "privacy is when you go to the bathroom, secrecy is deceit " . Load a keylogger on her PC , monitoring software on her phone and I suggest you buy a VAR , if you suspect she is starting to hold conversations hide the VAR in the car. Be prepared , keep to firm marriage boundaries , don't beg , grovel or plead , this may be nothing, it may be her behaving stupidly or it may be more serious.

At the same time start working on yourself , assume you are slipping up somewhere. Buy the book "his needs, her needs" by Harley it has good pointers therein .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm speaking from some experience here. When I confronted my WW about some sexual FB messages being sent from another guy she only admitted to talking a little smack to him.

I unerased her phone SD card and found about 60 nudes of her and 1 of him (that she had saved and later deleted).

I then checked the phone records and saw enough texting between them to make a teenagers thumbs bleed.

If I had not done these things I would be in the dark, and she would probably have moved onto another OM or 2 by now.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

@it-guy: It's an iphone 4 (not jailbroken). I've got her backups (from when she plugs into her itunes) and I've got all the texts from there, but as you suggest, there may indeed be erased things there.

These are the replies I was afraid I would get. I fear I lack the intestinal fortitude right now.

She thinks that my touching her is just a precursor to sex (which she doesn't want apparently).


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

RE: Checking the phone records. Did those records include the text of those texts or just the occurrences? AT&T, from what I can see only has the occurrences.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Try to look the phone bill/calls online


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

The good news is that the guys she's carrying on with aren't local, so it probably hasn't gotten physical yet.

You have to decide what you want to do. You can either.
1. Accept her actions and hope that she either stops on her own, or doesn't progress much beyond what she's already done.
2. Divorce her.
3. Try to end her infidelities and repair your marriage.

In order to accomplish #3, you have to be willing to leave her. That sounds counter-intuitive, but it's true. Read the Marriage Busters 180 and start to learn the tenets.
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forums: Divorce busting 180 degree list

If you decide that you want to save your marriage, but you are willing to leave it if your wife doesn't behave appropriately, then you should tell her to delete the men she's been messaging on Facebook and to have no further contact with them. She should also give you full access to her phone, email, and Facebook accounts so that you can verify that she has done this. If she balks, then you should file for divorce. Tell her that she should either choose you and her family, or internet strangers.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

Phone bills usually just show sender number, receiver number, time, and date. They usually indicate if it was text or multimedia (indicating a long text or pics)


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

I've started #3, with the exception of deleting her friends. No more private messages. It seems to be going according to my wishes, but my trust level is completely gone.

For the 180, everything? I absolutely will do anything to avoid divorce.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

Is "Nada" reading this thread? I have reason to believe you might be from Spain. Can I enlist your assistance (translation)?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Hijo said:


> I've started #3, with the exception of deleting her friends. No more private messages. It seems to be going according to my wishes, but my trust level is completely gone.
> 
> For the 180, everything? I absolutely will do anything to avoid divorce.


No more private messages is a good start. But your ultimate goal needs to be her deleting these guys for good. You're building your boundaries a little firmer than they've been, but they're not firm enough yet. Women respect firm boundaries and they are attracted to men who have them.

You don't have to do everything on the 180 list. The point of the 180 is that what you have been doing in your marriage has weakened it to the point of your wife having an affair. So you have to change your own behavior, because that's all you can control, by 180 degrees. If you change your own behavior, your wife may well change her behavior in response.

The 180 also recognizes certain general truths in disloyal spouses. They assume that the loyal spouse is weak and will be their fallback plan if the affair doesn't work out. If you accept that reasoning, by communicating that you will do anything to avoid divorce, then you have given your wife no reason to stop her behavior. If you communicate to your wife that you are going to use this opportunity to improve yourself and leave her behind and have a better life without her, she will be intrigued and find you much more attractive than when you were just boring old hubby.

So look at the 180 as a state of mind. You're not going to accept your wife belittling you by behaving inappropriately with other men. You're not going to beg your wife to stay with you because you're such a great guy that you could easily replace her with a younger, better looking woman.

Women are happiest in a relationship that is ever so slightly unstable. If a wife believes that there is nothing that she could ever do to push her husband away, then she might as well do whatever she wants. If she believes that her husband has other options, then she will be motivated to remain his most attractive option.

Good luck.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hijo said:


> Is "Nada" reading this thread? I have reason to believe you might be from Spain. Can I enlist your assistance (translation)?


If it's written translation you need, you can PM it to me. I speak Spanish.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What are you doing to make your marriage better?


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

Thank you for the responses. A bit of an update, and some replies.

Last night, we had a fight that turned into a really solid discussion. Cool, calm, collected. For the first time in weeks, I actually slept and my gut stopped sending me signals that something was still wrong.

I started with telling her that she needs to understand that I require boundaries be set in order to move past her flirtatious behavior (and now that I have gone through all the FB messages and past texts, I believe that to be the case here. Only the FB messages contained non-innocuous content).

She has agreed that she crossed the line (confession) and that it has affected me in that I have lost trust in her and that she was truly sorry for her actions (remorse, for the first time!).

I remained calm and thanked her. I asked her to tell me how long she had let the flirtatious messages go on. She said that from mid June through the day of confrontation. She said that it stopped completely on that day. She said she sent a last message to the OM's and it contained a "private texts containing these flirting messages is inappropriate and disrespectful to my husband. Please do not send me any more." message (loosely translated from spanish).

Her admission of dates and message content correspond with what my monitoring shows.

I think I may have stopped something before it got too far. Is it too early to grasp that hope? How do I move past the initial betrayal? Granted it isn't as bad as other tales on this forum, but it still crushed my soul.

Replies, working backwards:
@turnera: Since the day of discovery and confrontation, I have lost over 50lbs, started doing p90X, and to be honest, feel like the best I have in years. Colored my hair too. I'm looking much better than I used to. That should help address her "you aren't desireable to me because you are fat." complaint she used as her excuse. I've a ways to go, but it is such a vast improvement, she has actually complimented me quite a few times.

On the interaction with her front, I've been paying more attention to her, compliments, random flowers, etc. I think now that this may have been premature as it would make me appear weak to her, which isn't alpha and is unattractive. She seems appreciative, but has on two occasions requested that I back off on the affection, calling me "pesao" (clingy, a bother). I have toned it down a few notches, but I am unsure if a 180 here is wise.

@JellyBeans: Thanks, I may send you some in the future. I appreciate it. Right now, my translations seem to be confirming what she is telling me and has admitted to.

@PHTlump: Thank you so much for this reply. It actually stirred me into the mini-confrontation last night, and is one reason why I am in such a good mood today about this whole thing.

I am going to strive to project the strong and submerge the weak. Do I take each item in the 180 list and evaluate it against my own current state and if it matches keep it if it is opposite start doing it, or the opposite?

*1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.* (I stopped doing this last night)
*2. No frequent phone calls. *(I don't do this)
*3. Do not point out good points in marriage. *(I stopped doing this last night)
*4. Do not follow her around the house. *(Difficult, but will stop)
*5. Do not encourage talk about the future. *(She brings this up sometimes)
*6. Do not ask for help from family members.* (I have only confided in my best friend (male) from high school about this)
*7. Do not ask for reassurances.* (I requested a promise from her that she respect the boundaries we have set last night, which she did. I have not asked for anything further.)
*8. Do not buy gifts.* (I sent her flowers last friday)
*9. Do not schedule dates together.* (I do not agree with this, considering our basically not paying attention to one another is one reason this whole thing happened. Is this wise?)
*10. Do not spy on spouse.* (After I confirmed that since mid-July nothing further has gone on at the end of August, I stopped. I still have access to her FB, last checked it yesterday. It is taking all my willpower to not check it today.)
*11. Do not say "I Love You".* (See #9. Is this wise for me?)
*12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.* (I am acting as if I am moving on past this incident. Should I change that to ambivalence towards her in general?)
*13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive. *(Not much to work with here, but I'll give it a go! )
*14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc. *(I spend time with the kids, they keep me pretty busy)
*15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. *(wise in my case?)
*16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.* (I can do this. Haven't texted her at all today. Don't want her to think I am checking up on her)
*17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse. *(Understood)
*18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing* (This is a fine line. Won't she interpret my pulling back as bing angry or cold? I think I have been over-affectionate since the discovery and confrontation and now if I am not that way, she questions "are you mad? you have that face.".)
*19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.* (How do I work this into staying aloof and pulled back? Seems a contradiction.)
*20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).* (OK)
*21. Never lose your cool. *(It takes a bit for that to happen, but I will watch out for it)
*22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.* (I've been that)
*23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).* (I assume this is in regards to the OM's. Not a problem. I think it is over and won't bring it up to her)
*24. Be patient* (Christ this is the hard one. I want us to be back to loving one another yesterday)
*25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.* (Be a good listener. Got it)
*26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.* (In anger, I assume. Got it)
*27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).* (Got it)
*28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.* (Tough. I think I had some practice last night)
*29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.* (Consistency will be my greatest hurdle. It has been such a roller coaster since that day. Something will trigger a memory of a text I read and just set me off into anger or hurt and my emotions will just follow)
*30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.* (Hard to do. So hard)
*31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.* (ok. No "I" this or "I" that)
*32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.* (I'm not sure if this applies to my situation)
*33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.* (I'm tenacious, don't worry!)
*34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes. *(I think these changes, a lot of them, will actually improve my character)

I was speaking with my friend last night and told him I wished that there was all of the sudden a facebook hottie from my past that started hitting on me via messages that I could shut down and show my wife. Then I thought that was weak. Then I thought it was funny. He laughed at it.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Be careful of how you run the 180, it is used if your wife is still in an affair, using it incorrectly will drive her away.

Continue to monitor her communication, trust but verify. Do not be a doormat , I suggest you re-read the 180 and take out some items like number 8 , 9 and 10. The 180 is to strengthen you , if your wife has stopped the dialog and you have confirmed this and she is committed to you , there is nothing wrong with buying her flowers . Be careful not to over compliment her especially is she does not reciprocate , marriage is two way and she should be responding to your needs as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Be careful of how you run the 180, it is used if your wife is still in an affair, using it incorrectly will drive her away.
> 
> Continue to monitor her communication, trust but verify. Do not be a doormat , I suggest you re-read the 180 and take out some items like number 8 , 9 and 10. The 180 is to strengthen you , if your wife has stopped the dialog and you have confirmed this and she is committed to you , there is nothing wrong with buying her flowers . Be careful not to over compliment her especially is she does not reciprocate , marriage is two way and she should be responding to your needs as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks. I am so glad I asked. Some of this does seem very counter to what I should be doing given that I wholly believe she has stopped. I will continue to spot check her, but I really do think it has ceased.

I think what may have did it was during the initial confrontation me asking her what she thought her friends, her family, and the lawyers would think about her behavior and how it would affect custody of the children. She seemed to react as if she had been slapped. Since that date and the "NC"ish messages to the OM's, there has been nothing.

Either she has gone deep underground and I'm a total fool, or it truly is done and over. Given our respective levels of technical ability, I'm thinking the latter.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Load a keylogger , just in case. It is like an addiction, perhaps you are one of the lucky ones and you won't experience a false recovery. Continue to work on yourself and focus on your marriage however have a zero tolerance of any breaches of marriage boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, skip the 180, load the keylogger, and start working on the MARRIAGE. She strayed because they started meeting Emotional Needs that YOU should have been meeting. Doing 180 just proves to her that she was right.

Go to marriagebuilders.com and print out their Love Buster questionnaire, two copies. (avoid their toxic forums)

Sit down with her and ask her to fill it out. You do, too. Hers will tell you what YOU do to annoy her. Once you know those things, you can start working to change those habits. Do this for at least a couple months - eliminate ALL LBs; ask her to do the same for you, with YOUR list. This will clear the air and make you both less stressed, less unhappy.

After a couple months, print out their Emotional Needs questionnaire, and rinse and repeat. This will tell you what her top 5 ENs are, so you can be sure that YOU are the only one meeting those ENs. So that she has no need to look for it elsewhere. 

fwiw, she was getting excitement, attention, admiration from them. Are you providing that?

Finally, make sure that you two are spending at least 15 hours a week together doing non-household/kid/work-related activities. FIND a way to spend this time together, even if it's just a cup of coffee or a walk through the park. Find the time. Start dating again. Bring back the romance. Make her glad she left her home country to be with you.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Yeah, skip the 180, load the keylogger, and start working on the MARRIAGE. She strayed because they started meeting Emotional Needs that YOU should have been meeting. Doing 180 just proves to her that she was right.
> 
> Go to marriagebuilders.com and print out their Love Buster questionnaire, two copies. (avoid their toxic forums)
> 
> ...


Where's the goddamn like button in this forum. THANK YOU SO MUCH!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I like the advice from Eli-Zor and turnera. The 180 is most effective with a spouse who has checked out of the marriage and is counting on you to be a backup plan. The 180 communicates that you are also in the process of checking out and will not be there to support her. It shocks her back to reality.

If your wife has now committed to you, you don't have to be as hard core as the 180. What will be more appropriate for you is Athol Kay's blog at Married Man Sex Life for information on alpha/beta behaviors. Basically, if you're too beta, you need to add alpha. You shouldn't totally eliminate beta behaviors. Just cut down on the beta until you have a good balance of each type. A marriage needs both types of behaviors. Most married men end up too much weighted toward the beta behaviors and it kills the attraction their wives had for them.

Keep your boundaries (alpha). Keep verifying your wife's behavior.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

As for the 180 checklist, I'll give my thoughts on modifying the 180 toward your situation.

1. You're good.
2. You're good.
3. You can temper this. If she's pointing out bad things, you shouldn't be countering her with good things. If she's talking about good things, you can too.
4. Yes. Stop this. Either be together or apart. Don't be her puppy dog.
5. You can also temper this. You're in a bit of a crisis now, so it's fine to focus on the present. But, there's nothing wrong with two people who are committed to each other talking about the future.
6. Sometimes, a physical affair that the disloyal spouse doesn't want to end requires some family intervention. But inappropriate Facebook stuff should probably stay between you.
7. I think you're good. You don't want to come across as needy. Your reassurance will come from monitoring her internet activity. You don't need to ask her whether she contacted other men today.
8. I think this is fine. Small, infrequent gifts as a token of your affection are fine. You don't want to look like you're trying to buy her loyalty.
9. I think you're good here. A married couple committed to each other should date each other.
10. You need to spy. This is where the 180 is about reverse psychology on a wife who believes she wants divorce. Your wife says she is committed to you. You need to verify that.
11. Tell her you love her. Just make sure you're not the only one saying it and you're not always saying it first.
12. Don't be ambivalent towards her. You should start to focus on yourself more than you focus on her. But you should certainly communicate that you want her in your life.
13. This is a tough one. But, it's important. Women are most attracted to men who are confident and socially assertive. If you're naturally shy, start getting outside your comfort zone. Go to parties. Engage other people. A wife loves to look across a room and see a group of people listening to a story her husband is telling.
14. Kid time is important. But you also need some time alone. How can your wife miss you if you're always there? Get out of the house by yourself for at least a couple of hours a week.
15. For conversations, just keep them natural and on interesting topics. Don't always talk about the kids or about errands that have to be run. Keep her interest.
16. You're good. As above, you're checking up on her with your monitoring. And when you're confident enough that she's not in contact, you can let her know that you're monitoring. She's lost your trust and she needs to earn it back.
17. I think this is the most important one. You want to communicate to your wife that you are going to have an exciting and interesting life. She can choose to be a part of that, or she can choose to send topless photos to guys in Spain. You want to make it an easy choice for her.

Good luck.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

So. We completed the LB questionnaires and went through them together, taking turns on each question/subquestions.

I'll share her answers. Warning, some of this might be graphic, and some of this IS embarrassing to me. 

Selfish demands: 3 - moderate unhappiness
-2/week
-Forms: Touch himself or touch me (sexually)
-Form that causes greatest unhappiness: to be considered a sexual object
-Onset: can't remember
-Development: more often

Disrespectful Judgements: 6 - extreme unhappiness
-2/week
-Forms: imply that I am cheating on him
-Form that causes greatest unhappiness: telling me he will use stuff on me in court to take my kids away from me
-Onset: a while ago (couple of months ago)
-Development: decrease

Angry Outbursts: 6 - extreme unhappiness
-2/week
-Forms: Not talk, scream, be mean to me and the kids
-Form that causes greatest unhappiness: The one where he was threatening me with taking my kids away
-Onset: a while ago (same "incident" as above)
-Development: decreasing in the past week (thank you TAM)

Dishonesty: 5
-2/week
-Forms: when he says he didn't do something but he did
-Form that causes the greatest unhappiness: trying to make me look bad to take away my kids (I sense a theme here)
-Onset: the day he told me he quit smoking but he didn't (about 8 years ago, we had quit together, but I secretly kept smoking up until the day she caught me, on that day, I quit cold turkey)
-Development: increasing

Annoying Habits: 5
-3 or 4/week
-Forms: text, call, send messages in FB and commenting in everything I post
-Form that cause the greatest unhappiness:the constant checking up on me
-Onset: a few months ago
-Development: its getting better thank Jesus!

Independent behavior: 0 - no unhappiness
-5/week
-Forms: exercise or watch movies he likes (hulu/netflix/etc)
-Form that cause the greatest unhappiness: I like the fact that he does things on his own
-Onset: always
-Development: is less although he is exercising more (she noticed my 55lb weight loss, how nice)

Order of unhappiness: Disrespectful Judgements, Selfish Demands, Angry Outbursts, Dishonesty, Annoying Behavior, Independent Behavior​
Let me try and enlighten a little bit, starting with the theme "taking away the kids via threats of court/making her look bad". During one of our recent arguments, post July 13 (is this D-Day?) in the heat of the moment, I passive aggressively stated that I wondered how a court would view the evidence I had of her EA, if they thought a good mother would engage in the behavior that she did, or how her family and friends would react. (I was very upset, and this was way before TAM, how I wish I had sought help before trying all this mess on my own).

I have since apologized for saying something so ridiculous and callous, we both would never do anything of the sort to either one if it came to Divorce (it is NOT heading that way, last night was a REALLY GOOD day, I'm just awake due to a trigger I guess). I told her that it was said in the heat of the moment, and I do not mean it. I am not sure how to better convey that I am sorry for saying that and it is untrue.

With regards to her responses in selfish demands, it seems that she really doesn't want intimacy. I'm hoping my increase of alpha traits turns this around or it will become a big problem with me. I let her know that I have a real issue with her responses here, and that the frequency of sex for our marriage is on the low end. She claims that 1/week is normal for a healthy marriage and I disagree. To be honest, I have no idea really, but it seems low. Maybe I'm just a horndog .

I also let her know that while she might think that my touching her doesn't necessarily mean that it's a prelude to my wanting sex. I also admitted that because of her EA, I had instinctively increased my level of demanded intimacy. Since TAM, and especially since I got the balls to post this thread and receive some solid advice, I've backed off.

My question is this though. If you don't want to be considered a sexual object by your husband, why did you bother to get such nice boobs? (They are really mesmerizing to me, it's really irritating sometimes, maybe it's just the newness - June).

The rest of the questionnaire is pretty much in line with my actions (of the past) and are something I can work on to improve. I do have an issue with her response to Disrespectful Judgements, and we discussed it.

Her responding that I "imply that (she) is cheating on him" kind of sounds like she doesn't consider what she did as cheating.

I calmly, yet forcefully told her the following: "I do not believe that you think that what you did was cheating. In my eyes it was. <attempted interruption> Please let me finish my reasoning here, then you can respond. In my eyes, what you had was an Emotional Affair. You sought to fulfill emotional needs from people other than your husband, did you not? <nodding, realization> That is the definition of an Emotional Affair. And since it is an "affair", with all of the hurt and consequences that go along with that, what you did in my eyes, and most of the rest of the world, would be considered cheating."

This lead to a very positive discussion on why I am doing the things I do, how my affection had increased to an intolerable level, how my suspicion level was on high alert, why I felt so betrayed, and why my trust in her is at an all time low. I asked her to work with me to regain my trust in her. We also talked about triggers, how when she sees me "with that face" that it is likely I have experienced a trigger (or it could be me attempting alpha and just coming off as indifferent, so beware of that) and may need reassurance and understanding.

We talked a bit about her theme in her answers and how that is a trigger for her. I really don't know how to help her deal with that trigger, and I would welcome any advice I can get here.

We concluded the night with our new tradition: watching a tv show on the ipad (it's a closeness where we lay together on the bed and enjoy the show), and going to sleep. 

Thank you all once again for the advice you give. This questionnaire experience led to a wonderful discussion between us, and really gives me a decent roadmap to follow.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> 7. I think you're good. You don't want to come across as needy. Your reassurance will come from monitoring her internet activity. You don't need to ask her whether she contacted other men today.
> 10. You need to spy. This is where the 180 is about reverse psychology on a wife who believes she wants divorce. Your wife says she is committed to you. You need to verify that.


Unfortunately today I reviewed her facebook activity and she contacted OM1, which lead to this evening's trigger (it won't leave my mind). Fortunately, the conversation between the two is completely innocuous. It was a continuation of a discussion happening on a post of a mutual friend discussing the elections in Spain. Still, she deleted the message and did not tell me about it.

I am not sure how to approach this with her, or even if I should (would give away that I know about it, am spying). The conversation was harmless and nothing was sexual. I'm inclined to let this specific thing go. I did however, during our great discussion last night brought up her need to always delete her messages/emails. I let her know that it gives me the impression (even if it is not her intent to do so) that she is trying to hide something from me or is afraid that I will see something and jump to conclusions. This led to another discussion regarding how it is better to tell me immediately about something I may see that might upset me rather than me finding out about it later on and that it was better to tell the truth and deal with a bit of uncomfortableness in the beginning than to lie and have the consequences be much worse.



PHTlump said:


> 11. Tell her you love her. Just make sure you're not the only one saying it and you're not always saying it first.


Interesting that this one also came up yesterday. We were on the phone, and ending the conversation (about picking up the kids from daycare and whatnot). We normally end with me saying "I love you" and her saying "love you too". This time, she said "see you in a little bit" an then a pause. I let the pause go on for about 5 seconds and then I hung up the phone.

About 10 seconds later I get this text: "you didn't say bye "
My response: "You didn't say I love you. Your point?"

This was before our questionnaire pow-wow but after I had spend the day over on the alpha/beta blog (god I love that place). 

She came home and thought I was mad at her. I reassured her that no, I was not.

I did give her a bit of the aloofness I think I need to. It puzzled the **** out of her! :smthumbup:


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok her contacting the OM is not good regardless of the conversation, take a copy of all his friends on facebook, their names and web links and save them on a document that you secure. Do the same for the same for her key contacts. I don't think you need an exposure , yet , unfortunately your wife is breaching your trust and it is a continuation of what may be a mild EA that can rapidly move to a full blown affair.

Sit with her once more, be calm , ask if she has contacted any OM, typically she will deny it . She is likley to say no , she may say yes and acknowledge it was wrong, for both answers remind her she has breached your trust and request, not demand , all the OM's are deleted from her friends list and blocked from her Facebook, if she argues hold the line, firm, direct and honest . Do not let on how you know.

What will you do? do not threaten, don't grovel and do not back down on your boundaries. If she declines to commit to no contact and remove their ID's keep firm in your demand , in the background you need to start preparing to expose her behaviour to the OM's wife, this will take some time as you need a translator , if the OM is not married you target his parents. We have a template that we can send you.

Your not out to get revenge, you are not paranoid you are however taking steps now to prevent an affair flourishing. 

Give it a few days to see if she changes and does what you request. Have you loaded a keylogger if not get one pronto, she is likley to block you from her Facebook, that action alone will tell you to ramp up and start to fight hard.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So basically, the only things she can find wrong with you except for all the bruhaha about her cheating is that you lied once about stopping smoking and that you want more sex.

Interesting.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> So basically, the only things she can find wrong with you except for all the bruhaha about her cheating is that you lied once about stopping smoking and that you want more sex.
> 
> Interesting.


Yeah...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hijo said:


> We normally end with me saying "I love you" and her saying "love you too". This time, she said "see you in a little bit" an then a pause. I let the pause go on for about 5 seconds and then I hung up the phone.
> 
> About 10 seconds later I get this text: "you didn't say bye "
> My response: "You didn't say I love you. Your point?"


Hijo, this? Pure gold. I hope you stick around and give other BHs advice.

So, have you two agreed that she has to let you see any and all discussions with other men, in any form? Or did you go further and agree that she has to cut off communications? You need an agreement on this.

Oh, and the touching thing is one of the BIGGEST hot spots for women. Nearly ALL women. If you want sex, lead up to it. Don't just say 'bedroom time.' Women have to be seduced, even if it's just a glancing touch on the shoulder, to let her know. Notice HER, not her body. 

And the REST of the time, her body IS NOT A SHOP. You DON'T get to go in and just browse and touch the merchandise, ok? I know men would LOVE it if we would grope around all the time, but women want to be touched when they are in the PROCESS of having sex, not just as a teaser. To do anything else is being seen as a sex object. And we hate it.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

She revealed this morning that she had a conversation with OM on FB but that it was harmless. I asked her the content of the message (to test her, since I already knew) and if she could show it to me (knowing she deleted it already). She gave me the EXACT content of what they were talking about and said "I'm sorry, I deleted it out of habit."

I asked her to please keep any messages in the future and thanked her for being transparent.

It is a good morning.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Hijo, this? Pure gold. I hope you stick around and give other BHs advice.


I'm starting to become addicted to the stories of life taking place here, so I don't think I'm going anywhere, even though my own situation seems to be resolving.



turnera said:


> So, have you two agreed that she has to let you see any and all discussions with other men, in any form? Or did you go further and agree that she has to cut off communications? You need an agreement on this.


Yes, I've reinforced the necessity of transparency, not as much as me checking up on her (there is a little bit of that), more for the rebuilding of trust in her. This morning I feel so good about her having changed her path.



turnera said:


> Oh, and the touching thing is one of the BIGGEST hot spots for women. Nearly ALL women. If you want sex, lead up to it. Don't just say 'bedroom time.' Women have to be seduced, even if it's just a glancing touch on the shoulder, to let her know. Notice HER, not her body.
> 
> And the REST of the time, her body IS NOT A SHOP. You DON'T get to go in and just browse and touch the merchandise, ok? I know men would LOVE it if we would grope around all the time, but women want to be touched when they are in the PROCESS of having sex, not just as a teaser. To do anything else is being seen as a sex object. And we hate it.


I think I need to work a lot on my seduction skills. lol


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

Wife leaves this morning for work (she's a teacher). I'm still in bed feigning sleep.

She leaves with the two cakes I made for her yesterday (her principal's last day, they're having a party which I'll attend later).

The moment she pulls away, I text her:
"Say 'I love you' and giving you a kiss are the things I would have done if our roles were reversed this morning, even if you were asleep."

I await the reply. (I don't think she saw it yet, although she did have time to Facebook this morning to console one of her girlfriend's who's brother in law got killed in Afghanistan. Perhaps she's preoccupied)


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Hijo said:


> The moment she pulls away, I text her:
> "Say 'I love you' and giving you a kiss are the things I would have done if our roles were reversed this morning, even if you were asleep."


Too beta. A more alpha approach would have been to either sit up as she's leaving, or when you see her later in the day, simply smirk and say, "No 'love you' this morning?" Make it teasing, not needy.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Too beta.


The bane of my existence!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Don't get too down on yourself. You're not going to change from Thomas Anderson into Neo in a day, or a week, or a month. But once you've taken the red pill and seen that women crave more alpha behavior, you have to keep that in mind.

The good news is that it gets easier. Whereas now, you need to ask yourself several times a day whether you're being sufficiently alpha, in a few short months, it will come naturally.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

I've been eating up the MMSL website for a week now. Love it.

Are there other online "how to be more alpha" resources that are recommended?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Hijo said:


> I've been eating up the MMSL website for a week now. Love it.
> 
> Are there other online "how to be more alpha" resources that are recommended?


I think Athol is the best resource for married men. You could also check out Chateau Heartiste for some general tips. But, that blog is geared toward short-term, pickup advice.

I also like The Quest For 50 | From Frustration To Fruition for short-term advice and the transformation of a beta chump to an alpha pua, and Hooking Up Smart for a woman's perspective who understands the alpha/beta dichotomy.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

Adding to my list. Christ this is a lot of reading.

I'm very process oriented (being a programmer), so anything that is a "do this, then this, then this, then this" type of thing I dig.

FWW is still not showing the affection level I would like, forget intimacy at this point. I'd just like her to say the words first. I don't think I remember her ever doing so. I'm growing weary. Plants without water die.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hijo said:


> I've been eating up the MMSL website for a week now. Love it.
> 
> Are there other online "how to be more alpha" resources that are recommended?


Did you read the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. from www.bettermen.org? Great website, btw.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hijo said:


> FWW is still not showing the affection level I would like, forget intimacy at this point. I'd just like her to say the words first. I don't think I remember her ever doing so. I'm growing weary. Plants without water die.


You need to practice Radical Honesty. 

Do a driveby (say it and then leave her alone to think about it): "I need intimacy in my marriage. I need to hear the words _______ in my life to feel loved."


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Hijo said:


> Adding to my list. Christ this is a lot of reading.
> 
> I'm very process oriented (being a programmer), so anything that is a "do this, then this, then this, then this" type of thing I dig.


The short-term, PUA game has more of the algorithms to follow. For a long-term relationship, it's just about changing your state of mind. Think in terms of parent/child. You certainly shouldn't accept disrespectful behavior from your child. You wouldn't even think twice to correct a child. That's because you're in charge of the interaction. You have the proper frame.

There's a similar dynamic in a marriage. The balance of power isn't as skewed as with a parent and child, but you should definitely be the captain in Athol's captain/first officer metaphor. The captain doesn't analyze his subordinates' behavior versus his own. He simply has the state of mind of a superior officer and imposes his will when necessary.



Hijo said:


> FWW is still not showing the affection level I would like, forget intimacy at this point. I'd just like her to say the words first. I don't think I remember her ever doing so. I'm growing weary. Plants without water die.


I'll add another homework assignment to your growing list. Read Mem's thread on the thermostat. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html
It sounds like your wife has always been the spouse who likes the relationship cool and you like it warmer. The problem with that is that you're always the one trying to warm up your spouse. That makes your spouse less invested in the marriage and devalues you as a spouse. You care more about meeting her needs than she cares about meeting yours.

Of course, Athol's strategy for this is stage 4 (I think) of his MAP. After you've improved yourself and you've shifted the balance of power in your marriage toward yourself, you have to destabilize the relationship. You have "the talk" where you tell her that she's not meeting your needs in the marriage and you are now prepared to end the marriage, if she's unwilling to meet your needs, in order to have your needs met by another woman. You're not at all ready to have this talk yet. But it's Athol's plan of action.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> The short-term, PUA game has more of the algorithms to follow. For a long-term relationship, it's just about changing your state of mind. Think in terms of parent/child. You certainly shouldn't accept disrespectful behavior from your child. You wouldn't even think twice to correct a child. That's because you're in charge of the interaction. You have the proper frame.
> 
> There's a similar dynamic in a marriage. The balance of power isn't as skewed as with a parent and child, but you should definitely be the captain in Athol's captain/first officer metaphor. The captain doesn't analyze his subordinates' behavior versus his own. He simply has the state of mind of a superior officer and imposes his will when necessary.
> 
> ...


Ugh. Thanks!


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

Update: Great night last night. Our new routine is to get the kids off to bed, both shower/bathe, then watch a show in bed via hulu/home network. 

While sex is still pretty rigidly one nite a week (usually Saturday), the day has started to vary and the experience is becoming less robotic. She is seeming to enjoy it and engage more each time.

Last night did not include sex, but it was great otherwise. No fights. Lively conversation, and truly sharing in one another's company. So, as I drifted off to sleep on my side of the bed, my back to her, she turned to face me, said a soft "I love you" and caressed my shoulder for more than a brief instant.

It was as if a white hot poker of pleasure had been placed against my skin and it was all I could do to not move, as I knew that she might have done so only because she thought I was fully asleep and I didn't want to make her stop.

Alas, it did eventually stop with her letting out a small sign of contentment and snuggling me closer. I drifted off and I slept like the dead and awoke refreshed.

This is the first real unsolicited affection she has shown me in quite a long time.

I am going to continue down my alpha path, as it does appear to be working to my advantage. I'm going to continue to temper it with my already strong beta qualities, as I think a mix of the two is what makes for a "great catch" and has the greatest success in keeping my wife faithful.

This little roadbump, while very hard on me emotionally might have been just what my marriage needed. God I hate saying that, but it looks more and more like the truth.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Its great to be able to read this on this website. Needed some relief from some of the other threads. Good luck and keep updating. 

Do your homework.

Chap


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nice to hear it.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

Quick update that has me cautiously happy, yet puzzled:

Last Friday, she texted me "Don't comment on tagged photo". I'm like "wtf you talking about" and texted her "?".

Well of course alarm bells are ringing in my head and I go into full blown seek and destroy mode. I check her FB, her email, her laptop, etc. On her fb, some tool in her joke group posted a picture of some model with a six pack and tagged an assload of girls in the group (her being one of them).

I'm sitting here thinking, "is this what she's on about?" so I start reading the posts and translating them, as this is a spanish joke group (Spain spanish, not Mexico/SA spanish). It's all chicks responding to the picture, talking about "does anyone see the rainbow?" since someone had photoshopped in a rainbow behind the model. You know, typical girl talk, etc.
My wife is one of the respondees, and is talking in the same joking manner, nothing serious, nothing directed at the poster of the picture, just joking around.

Now I text back to her "Are you talking about the model with the rainbow? /meh, some guy is just doing a typical pickup move. Post a picture, get women to respond, pick the best one and have fun. The responses you guys are putting are kinda funny."

I think nothing else of it, but I do it seems go into "**** the world" mode and get in a bad mood. By the time she gets home, I'm not anywhere near being pissed at her, just short and non-affectionate.

It seems this drives her nuts and she's all "whats wrong? the picture"?

I tell her "nothing is wrong, you get pissed when I tag you in pictures that are actually you, but it seems that when someone else tags you in a picture, it's no big deal. Whatever, I'm going for a run." and I exit stage right.

I come back from my run and she tells me "I've left the joke group and removed the tag from that picture. It was getting boring anyway, no one was posting anything very funny anymore. I couldn't remove the tag from my mobile, which is why I didn't remove the tag."

Me: "I didn't ask you to do that, but whatever floats your boat." Cool, uncaring. Inform her that I beat my distance and pace records. She congratulates me and says I'm looking good.

I of course have been keeping extra vigilance on her doings since this, and the whole weekend, into today, not a single slip up or hint of one.

I think the last of the fog may have just blown away.

I even got an "I love you" when she left this morning. Her first.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Pretty good news. You're continuing to transition to a more alpha frame where, even if something throws you, you present to her as more irritated than insecure.

She's now taking active steps to reassure you, which is a big step for her.

You're correct to be cautious. Backsliding is common. But, with the other men on another continent, she can't run into them at the gym/work/etc.

Just keep doing what you're doing.


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## Hijo (Sep 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Pretty good news. You're continuing to transition to a more alpha frame where, even if something throws you, you present to her as more irritated than insecure.
> 
> She's now taking active steps to reassure you, which is a big step for her.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reassurance, and all the links and advice. I really appreciate it.


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