# Fine line of domestic violence



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Warning! I expect this thread to talk about some things that are sensitive to some people. If you fear this will trigger you, perhaps you should stay away. 

So what constitutes domestic violence? 

Early in my courtship with my wife, she got mad at me one day and punched me in the shoulder, sorta hard. She claims to this day that it was supposed to be playful, but I didn't take it that way at the time, so I did the same right back at her. I warned her that I wasn't going to hit her nor was I going to become a punching bag, just in case she thought that a man was expected to do so.

That was the last such event in our relationship, over 30 years ago. To read some of the responses here to other threads when a relationship gets physical, I should instead have hauled her down to the police station, filed a report, had her jailed overnight, and dumped her as a guaranteed future abuser.

I think it's pretty obvious that I find this position to be an overreaction. Likewise, I'm not a big fan of putting a man in cuffs for holding his wife's wrists when she tries to give him a slap. 

So look. I know why DV is a sensitive topic. I know why women in particular should be very careful. I don't condone violence and I don't support abusers. But doesn't a little common sense matter here? People will once in a while get slightly physical. As long as it doesn't escalate into actual harm, are we not overreacting a little to start talking about divorce, police, and lawsuits?

Anyway, I think so.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I do agree that there has to be some common sense. Honestly though, I don't think there is one answer to draw the line as I am sure it will vary from person to person. What one person may consider as playful may not be for the next person. Let's say my W gets in my face (never actually happened, plus she would need to stand on a box), there would be a difference b/w me pushing her out of the way vs me putting all my strength into shoving her across the room. I am much stronger than my W, so what it playful for me may actually hurt her. If this is done repeatedly after warnings from my W, regardless of my insistence that I am being playful, it is actually a big issue.

I think it may be a matter of determining a) the severity of the violence and b) is this a recurring theme vs. first time.

Tough one TBH.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Looking back, do you think you overreacted?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> Looking back, do you think you overreacted?


No. I may have misinterpreted, but I reacted precisely how I think I should have reacted given what I thought was in play. No one was bruised, bloodied, injured, or psychologically scarred in any way.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

When I was in college, I had broken up with my gf. Around 3 am all liquored up she knocks and I don't answer.
She kicks the door down and pretty much assaults me. I'm a big guy so I just shove her off of me and she goes flying into the wall. She then starts throwing stuff at me. Anyway, neighbors call the cops and they hand cuff me and start hauling me off to jail.

I plead with them as they are hauling me off. I'm the sober one...she kicked my door in.
Finally, one cop sees her little shoe print embossed in my door and I think it dawns on him.
The pretty little girl is sh*tfaced and responsible for the whole mess.

They uncuff me and let me go. Do they take her to jail. Nope. They ask me to let her sleep on my 
couch so they don't have to take her to jail. 

White privilege hasn't got anything on pretty girl privilege.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> White privilege hasn't got anything on pretty girl privilege.


Do you consider that situation domestic violence? On another thread here someone was pointing out that getting into your spouse's face is DV.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Do you consider that situation domestic violence?


Absolutely it was. She got a good lick in with the candle. Didn't know she could throw that hard. I mean she lost all control. I'm sure it was the booze but that's no excuse.

I was never worried though. I'm 6'3" and she was like 5'4".

I was just trying to diffuse the situation and try not to get her or I hurt in the process.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No. I may have misinterpreted, but I reacted precisely how I think I should have reacted given what I thought was in play. No one was bruised, bloodied, injured, or psychologically scarred in any way.


What did you think was in play?


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Do you consider that situation domestic violence? On another thread here someone was pointing out that getting into your spouse's face is DV.


I don't think getting in someones face is DV. I don't think grabbing someone is DV. Ray Rice punched his fiance after she had slapped him. Should he be let off the hook. No, because he could have proved his point with much less emphasis.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ButtPunch said:


> White privilege hasn't got anything on pretty girl privilege.


This makes things very interesting as a guy, the best way to respond. I am not talking about hitting her back, but it is clear that the cards are stacked against guys in these types of situations so you almost have to go into self preservation mode (not from being harmed by her, but to avoid being hauled away by the cops without justification). Are you almost forced to report or document any sort of violence as soon as possible just so you have it on record to protect yourself?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

My wife was/is a rough customer, growing up with 4 brothers (and you better believe I was pretty rough myself to even survive the crap they dished my way when I first started dating her).

We were pretty young when we started dating, 18 and 20, and immaturity was probably part of it, but she knew more ways to hurt somebody than my drill instructor. She'd get me in these finger holds that I couldn't get out of, even though I'm 9 inches taller than her.

It's probably a pretty subjective thing, but not once did I consider it to be domestic violence. More like foreplay.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I think it is a question of fear. If we were in a discussion and my much larger husband restrained me, I might feel genuine fear of escalation of being hit or grabbed. If he hit me, I would be terrified. If I hit my husband, he would not feel fear. He would do exactly as you did. The only problem is that if I was a beotch and chose to call the police, he may well spend an evening in jail.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ButtPunch said:


> I don't think getting in someones face is DV. I don't think grabbing someone is DV. Ray Rice punched his fiance after she had slapped him. Should he be let off the hook. No, because he could have proved his point with much less emphasis.


You did not answer my question in response to your Ray Rice post over there. It was meant to help you understand how vulnerable a much smaller, lighter person might feel while being held against their will. Would you like to answer it here?

And, just out of curiosity, did you grow two inches? On your thread a few years ago didn't you say you were 6'1"?


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

jld said:


> You did not answer my question in response to your Ray Rice post over there. It was meant to help you understand how vulnerable a much smaller, lighter person might feel while being held against their will. Would you like to answer it here?
> 
> And, just out of curiosity, did you grow two inches? On your thread a few years ago didn't you say you were 6'1"?


6'-2.75" to be exact

I see your point but there is a difference between a husband grabbing and a 275 lb muscle head stranger grabbing you.

I don't think it is ok to punch your husband in the face if he grabs you or vice versa.

My wife is 6'


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> They ask me to let her sleep on my
> couch so they don't have to take her to jail.
> 
> White privilege hasn't got anything on pretty girl privilege.


Omg... seriously? I would have answered, "Hell, no, she can't stay here! If you don't want to take her to jail, then take her home!" That is absolutely unbelievable.

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ButtPunch said:


> 6'-2.75" to be exact
> 
> I see your point but there is a difference between a husband grabbing and a 275 lb muscle head stranger grabbing you.
> 
> ...


I read this morning that 3 women die every day in the US at the hands of their husbands or intimate partners. Not sure how many die every day at the hands of strangers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

@Cletus, my husband would have done the same thing you did... and rightfully so. Sorry, she (or even I) can claim "playfulness" all she/I likes. She was mad and punched you. It pisses me off when some think that a man should just "take it", solely BECAUSE he is a man. No, he shouldn't. He should NOT expect his gf or wife will hit him, any more than a wife should expect it of her husband. But, if the "weaker" wife punches her husbanf, she damn well better expect a similar response from him! 

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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> This makes things very interesting as a guy, the best way to respond. I am not talking about hitting her back, but it is clear that the cards are stacked against guys in these types of situations so you almost have to go into self preservation mode (not from being harmed by her, but to avoid being hauled away by the cops without justification). Are you almost forced to report or document any sort of violence as soon as possible just so you have it on record to protect yourself?



Woman [of Ill repute] I dated years ago sucker punched me in the middle of an argument. Some other dude came over... To make sure SHE was ok. I firmly believe there is often a bias where domestic violence is concerned which is not favorable to men. 




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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Maricha75 said:


> @Cletus, my husband would have done the same thing you did... and rightfully so. Sorry, she (or even I) can claim "playfulness" all she/I likes. She was mad and punched you. It pisses me off when some think that a man should just "take it", solely BECAUSE he is a man. No, he shouldn't. He should NOT expect his gf or wife will hit him, any more than a wife should expect it of her husband. But, if the "weaker" wife punches her husbanf, she damn well better expect a similar response from him!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Within reason. Ray Rice over did it.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> Within reason. Ray Rice over did it.


Punching =/= slapping. What I meant is that if she slaps, she *should* expect to be slapped back. If she scratches, same thing. 

Incidentally, I know nothing about Ray Rice nor what happened. I don't even know who he is. My point was *only* that no one should just attack, in any way, and expect his or her partner to just suck it up and take it.

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ButtPunch said:


> Within reason. Ray Rice over did it.


By your username it is clear what your preferred method of physical violence is ...


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Maricha75 said:


> Punching =/= slapping. What I meant is that if she slaps, she *should* expect to be slapped back. If she scratches, same thing.
> 
> Incidentally, I know nothing about Ray Rice nor what happened. I don't even know who he is. My point was *only* that no one should just attack, in any way, and expect his or her partner to just suck it up and take it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Pro football player who punched his fiance's lights out after she had slapped him a few seconds earlier. I mean unconscious.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

jld said:


> I read this morning that 3 women die every day in the US at the hands of their husbands or intimate partners. Not sure how many die every day at the hands of strangers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's sad. The world is a tough place. Maybe women should just stay away from men.

I read 40% of domestic violence occurs against men.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> Pro football player who punched his fiance's lights out after she had slapped him a few seconds earlier. I mean unconscious.


Yea, WAY over the top. At most, he should have slapped her.

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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> By your username it is clear what your preferred method of physical violence is ...


Yep doesn't leave visible evidence


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> I read this morning that 3 women die every day in the US at the hands of their husbands or intimate partners. Not sure how many die every day at the hands of strangers.


About 1,600 women are murdered each year. About 1023 of those are murdered by their spouse/SO.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ButtPunch said:


> When I was in college, I had broken up with my gf. Around 3 am all liquored up she knocks and I don't answer.
> She kicks the door down and pretty much assaults me. I'm a big guy so I just shove her off of me and she goes flying into the wall. She then starts throwing stuff at me. Anyway, neighbors call the cops and they hand cuff me and start hauling me off to jail.
> 
> I plead with them as they are hauling me off. I'm the sober one...she kicked my door in.
> ...


See, this pissed me off. She needed to be arrested and charged.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> Yep doesn't leave visible evidence


Smh... unless you are the type to bruise easily... like I do. Seriously, my chihuahua can step on my arm and it bruises. My husband could literally just *touch* my breast with one finger and I will bruise. No, I don't have a disorder. I have been checked lol. It's just how I am.

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Maricha75 said:


> Smh... unless you are the type to bruise easily... like I do. Seriously, my chihuahua can step on my arm and it bruises. My husband could literally just *touch* my breast with one finger and I will bruise. No, I don't have a disorder. I have been checked lol. It's just how I am.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I think he meant b/c normally the person would not have their butt exposed in public, so any bruising would not be "visible" 

Edit - don't mean to judge if you run around all day with your tush hangin out


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> @Cletus, my husband would have done the same thing you did... and rightfully so. Sorry, she (or even I) can claim "playfulness" all she/I likes. She was mad and punched you. It pisses me off when some think that a man should just "take it", solely BECAUSE he is a man. No, he shouldn't. He should NOT expect his gf or wife will hit him, any more than a wife should expect it of her husband. But, if the "weaker" wife punches her husbanf, she damn well better expect a similar response from him!


This is the side of the equality conversation that doesn't get as much air time.

I'm all for gender equality, even here.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ButtPunch said:


> I don't think getting in someones face is DV. I don't think grabbing someone is DV.


There is getting in someone's face, and then there is GETTING INSOMEONE"S FACE.

Your spouse who has 50 or more lbs on you has your cornered, gets in your face yelling (inch or two away), yelling and screaming at the top of their longs. Their body language is intimidating. 

You are trying to get out of that corner without touching them because you know that will escalate the situation. 

DV is not 'just' hitting a person. It's also about doing things that is intimidating and they have a reasonable reason to fear for their safety.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> DV is not 'just' hitting a person. It's also about doing things that is intimidating and they have a reasonable reason to fear for their safety.


Then it's not DV if your spouse has been doing this since you met but has never escalated. 

It might be an anger management issue, but you cannot have a reasonable fear of safety when your partner has undeniably shown that you're not actually in danger.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Odd... my husband cornered me, only once like that. And he does have significant strength over me. You know what I did? I stood there, defiantly. When he was done, I told him that if he EVER did that again, he was out of our home. And YES, I absolutely have that authority. Never did it again. He is bigger than I am. He is stronger than I am. But I refused to be intimidated. I absolutely did not view it as domestic violence, and I still don't.

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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I support gender equality to the extent there can be equality. If your wife or gf is much smaller then an equal response is too much....not only does it take less to hurt her but a guy can generally do a lot more damage.

It's like a kid hitting me.....I don't have to take it but my response has to be measured and appropriate or I'm going to jail.

If we had real equality men would carry babies, but we will never be completely equal.

Size isn't everything though, I'm 5'4 and a size 2 but I also have a 2nd degree black belt and could do some damage. Having said that I'm sure if he punched me it would do a lot of damage to me. 

But if I were violent I'd expect him to dump me. 

People shouldn't be hitting. However, if you want to teach your girl a little empathy if she hits by all means do it, but make sure your response is similar to what you got from her perspective. When fighting junior belts we're taught to only return what is given to us so that they feel what we felt and nothing more.

That being said, if it happens once and you want to write it off i see no issue. But if it happens again you should reconsider the relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cletus said:


> This is the side of the equality conversation that doesn't get as much air time.
> 
> I'm all for gender equality, even here.


I think that the laws and law enforcement are changing.

I know of two women in prison for it.

Another who is on probation.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Then it's not DV if your spouse has been doing this since you met but has never escalated.
> 
> It might be an anger management issue, but you cannot have a reasonable fear of safety when your partner has undeniably shown that you're not actually in danger.


So what if your SO is constantly in your face telling you they are going to kill you. They may never lay a finger on you or kill you, but wouldn't this generate a reasonable fear of safety that goes beyond anger management?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> That being said, if it happens once and you want to write it off in see no issue. But if it happens again you should reconsider the relationship.


People learn all sorts of incorrect ways of dealing with things. My wife had 3 brothers. As long as a person is willing to learn and modify her behavior, I don't see a lot of value in hauling her off to jail or abandoning her as an unfit spouse. 

This topic is, of course, typical for TAM and the internet. Here in Dodge City, people shoot first and ask questions later. "Dump him!" "Serve Him!" "Run for the hills!" "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here". Nuance is not our strong point, collectively.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> So what if your SO is constantly in your face telling you they are going to kill you. They may never lay a finger on you or kill you, but wouldn't this generate a reasonable fear of safety that goes beyond anger management?


If your SO is constantly in your face, saying they are going to kill you, I would question YOUR mental competence because you should have LEFT that first time!

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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> So what if your SO is constantly in your face telling you they are going to kill you. They may never lay a finger on you or kill you, but wouldn't this generate a reasonable fear of safety that goes beyond anger management?


That's a specific threat that should always be taken seriously in any context other than my telling my son that I brought him into this world and I can take him out.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> That's a specific threat that should always be taken seriously in any context other than my telling my son that I brought him into this world and I can take him out.


You say that, too??? 😮😁

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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> But, if the "weaker" wife punches her husbanf, she damn well better expect a similar response from him!





EleGirl said:


> I think that the laws and law enforcement are changing.
> 
> I know of two women in prison for it.
> 
> Another who is on probation.


I was referring to the above. I know the legal system is improving on their handling of this.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Maricha75 said:


> If your SO is constantly in your face, saying they are going to kill you, I would question YOUR mental competence because you should have LEFT that first time!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Very true. At the same time, let's say the first time someone says this to you, you give them the benefit of the doubt b/c it has never happened before. It happens again, you take it seriously and leave. However, b/c of the type of threat and for your own safety do you still report it to someone since just b/c you left the person doesn't mean you can stay out of harms way? 



Cletus said:


> That's a specific threat that should always be taken seriously in any context other than my telling my son that I brought him into this world and I can take him out.


Agreed. My only point being DV could in theory go beyond there being actual physical violence.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> You say that, too??? 😮😁


I get the feeling that with the exception of one very Big topic, we'd see eye to eye on a lot. 

Of course, now that my son is 25, I'm not sure I could make good on the threat any more.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Very true. At the same time, let's say the first time someone says this to you, you give them the benefit of the doubt


I'd be willing to put up with this once, but "Giving the benefit of the doubt" would include a VERY serious discussion about how they've used up their one and only get out of jail free card.

Now in jest, and *yes my wife knows it's a joke*, I have said that I would never divorce her. It's too expensive and I have several acres over which to hide the body.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

So just a bit of background on me. I have been a cop for 16 years. I have a minor in sociology with an emphasis on domestic violence and I was once the tri county lead detective of the domestic violence. So educational wise and how domestic violence laws work I am very familiar with. I have never been the victim of or the perpatrator of domestic violence. 

So with the background I can say with certainty that many think they understand domestic violence but until you have lived it or least heard first hand accounts of those trying to escape it you just don't. Here in Colorado all intimate couple partners fall under the umbrella of domestic violence provision. So I steal 50$ from my buddy and he presses charges I get a ticket. I steal from my GF the state presses charges no matter what she says about it and I go to jail for the night. Is that reasonable and prudent, I don't know in some cases yes in other cases no.

Make no mistake this is serious business. For as long as I have been a cop we, law enforcement, have had zero discretion in this matter. So even if the victim is begging us to not arrest his wife or her husband doesn't matter we have to. The penalties of not doing so go far beyond getting in trouble with work.....you can loose you certification, you can be fined by the state, in extreme circumstances you can ever be jailed for failure to arrest. So we always have that fear in the back of our head of not doing something. So the answer for many years was just arrest everyone . well now they are coming down on that as well. 

Here are the problems with most domestic violence investigations unique to this class of crime.

1) establishing they are a couple. When do they become a couple? Is it after 5 dates? After sex? What if they were a couple but now they haven't been married for 10 years is it still domestic violence. (Answer to last one is yes by the way). All these things need to be answered before you really even know if they qualify under domestic violence
2) no witnesses. You are generally presented with two people both who are telling you completely different stories and neither being honest
3) victim recants. This is the biggest problem for prosecution. So yes I can arrest even if the victim doesn't want me to. I have to. But an uncooperative victim who won't show up to court, or will lie is a nightmare for the DA trying to win the case
4) lack of education on the public. This word violence really misleads people. How many times have I arrested someone who argued with me all the way to jail that because they didn't hit the other party they can't go to jail. They are wrong. Any crime between a couple is domestic violence 
5) lack of education on law enforcement. A big part of my job when I was a lead detective was to education civilian and military law enforcement on DV investigations. Much of it covered topics like criminal history and predominate aggressor. Some will latch on to these concepts and some never will even knowing the consequences. That becomes a nightmare for their peers and supervisors. My department is large and we have training and annual training. Many smaller departments don't.


Reality behind the myths:

Domestic violence crosses all racial and economic groups

Men and women can violate the law but men tend to be guilty of more physical violence and women more property damage

Both men and women unreport this crime ,men at a higher percentage than women. Both genders many times don't know they are even the victim of a crime because they focus on this word violence.

Violence is not ok in relationships ........EVER..... I get disturbed seeing some here downplay violence as OK for some genders but not for others. It's not ok for any gender and both should have consequences.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Violence is not ok in relationships ........EVER..... I get disturbed seeing some here downplay violence as OK for some genders but not for others. It's not ok for any gender and both should have consequences.


I consider this to be a classic social pendulum response to a real problem. 

We have a real problem that we have to solve, but the reaction to that problem goes so far overboard that it winds up being nearly as egregious as the original issue.

It seems to be human nature. At least the pendulum usually swings back over time, with a lower amplitude oscillation.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I consider this to be a classic social pendulum response to a real problem.
> 
> We have a real problem that we have to solve, but the reaction to that problem goes so far overboard that it winds up being nearly as egregious as the original issue.
> 
> It seems to be human nature. At least the pendulum usually swings back over time, with a lower amplitude oscillation.


I agree with you. We always talk about criminal justice as a pendulum moving between victim rights and offender rights. Domestic violence is a smaller version of that between victim/ offender rights and government oversight.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I get the feeling that with the exception of one very Big topic, we'd see eye to eye on a lot.
> 
> Of course, now that my son is 25, I'm not sure I could make good on the threat any more.


I've used that exact line. In your case the follow up is what my dad said at one point "Boy, the day you think you can take me is the day I pick up a 2*4" . 

Of course, he never actually hit me. Well, there was a spanking or two, but they were well earned <g>. Different times...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Of course, he never actually hit me. Well, there was a spanking or two, but they were well earned <g>. Different times...


If my son ever spanks me, I'll skip the 2x4 and go straight for the nail gun.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I think that the laws and law enforcement are changing.
> 
> I know of two women in prison for it.
> 
> Another who is on probation.


Rough crowd :surprise:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Odd... my husband cornered me, only once like that. And he does have significant strength over me. You know what I did? I stood there, defiantly. When he was done, I told him that if he EVER did that again, he was out of our home. And YES, I absolutely have that authority. Never did it again. He is bigger than I am. He is stronger than I am. But I refused to be intimidated. I absolutely did not view it as domestic violence, and I still don't.


Odd... your situation is not the only one out there

Some people are not as strong emotionally as you and does not know how to react. So their SO just keeps doing it because they get away with it. And their person being cornered gets more and more scared of their SO.

Some times you can tell the person not to do that as you did, and they do it anyway.. often. And sometimes there are situations under which a person cannot just leave. They cannot set a boundary like that and leave. And knowing that, the abusive SO just keeps on doing it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Then it's not DV if your spouse has been doing this since you met but has never escalated.
> 
> It might be an anger management issue, but you cannot have a reasonable fear of safety when your partner has undeniably shown that you're not actually in danger.


The underlying message of cornering a person, using intimidating body language and screaming at them is that they can escalate their attack any time that they want and they will. 

That is why it produces fear in the person being cornered like that.

And generally a person who does stuff like this as a matter of course does escalate over time. They are most likely to escalate if their victim makes any attempt at all to stand up to them and/or get away.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> If your SO is constantly in your face, saying they are going to kill you, I would question YOUR mental competence because you should have LEFT that first time!


That's true. The victim should have left that first time, but the first time they don't know that it's going to be constant. There is usually a honeymoon period where the couple makes up, the abuser apologizes profusely. So the victim thinks it's worth giving their abuser another chance. and so the cycle goes.

They don't know that it's a constant thing the first time.

Keep in mind that some here think that it's over reacting to tell someone to leave the first time. I'm not sure what they think that the magic number of times someone should be allowed to this is... but there must be a magic number besides 'the first time' to those who think this way.

And yea, there is something wrong if the victim does not leave the first time, or the second time. They have a problem with their own state of mind. And they need help getting out of it.

And sometimes there are legal and/or financial reasons why a person cannot leave the first time, or the nth time.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I never think physically attacking or even intimidating your spouse is ok. It's clearly a divorcable offense. Strangely enough, I think a woman who hits a man is worse than a man who hits a woman. Not due to the actual action of physically assaulting your spouse, but because she is clearly putting herself at a major risk. If she is at the point where she is being physical with him, there should be zero expectations he won't retaliate, as clearly this is the type of couple you are.

When I was in middle school, my high school sister got I a physical fight with her boyfriend and he ran out of the house. I was too young to do anything, but obviously my dad was livid and talked about killing him and whatnot. Go to find out he called her a **** (probably true at the time), she cursed him out, he threatened her like he was going to spread rumors and she clocked him in the face with a phone. Not a cell phone, but a yellow, 12 button 1980s phone. He then open handed her across the face. Do I condone it? Hell no. But I understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Herschel said:


> I never think physically attacking or even intimidating your spouse is ok. It's clearly a divorcable offense. Strangely enough, I think a woman who hits a man is worse than a man who hits a woman. Not due to the actual action of physically assaulting your spouse, but because she is clearly putting herself at a major risk. If she is at the point where she is being physical with him, there should be zero expectations he won't retaliate, as clearly this is the type of couple you are.
> 
> When I was in middle school, my high school sister got I a physical fight with her boyfriend and he ran out of the house. I was too young to do anything, but obviously my dad was livid and talked about killing him and whatnot. Go to find out he called her a **** (probably true at the time), she cursed him out, he threatened her like he was going to spread rumors and she clocked him in the face with a phone. Not a cell phone, but a yellow, 12 button 1980s phone. He then open handed her across the face. Do I condone it? Hell no. But I understand.


what do you understand? Him? Her? both?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Keep in mind that some here think that it's over reacting to tell someone to leave the first time. I'm not sure what they think that the magic number of times someone should be allowed to this is... but there must be a magic number besides 'the first time' to those who think this way.


There's nothing wrong with "once" being the magic number. Not everyone gets the same education in what these things mean to another. They may have been modeled this as typical marital fighting their whole life. Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained through ignorance. They may be very trainable as soon as someone takes them aside and says "not acceptable _ever again_".

That's exactly what happened to me. I had a fiance who didn't know that it was wrong to punch a man on the arm. One offense, one counter-stroke, and no recurrence ever. Neither one of us is DVer. 

Most men and most women by far do not physically harm their spouses.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Him, she took it physical. He was a db to the highest order, so it's not like I'd shed a tear. But you clock someone in the face with a phone, you deserve to be cracked. I don't care who you are, and it's not about mysogeny or sexism. 

Really, you are doing them a favor by showing them that when you stick your tongue on a hot stove, it will get burned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think it is ever okay to hit anyone, for any reason. I would certainly never advise it.

What you do when it happens anyway is the question.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> I don't think it is ever okay to hit anyone, for any reason. I would certainly never advise it.
> 
> What you do when it happens anyway is the question.


You didn't grow up a boy on a city playground where respect sometimes came only from a balled-up fist. I don't mean "looked up to" respect, I mean the kind that allows you to just live your life without the presence of constant bullying.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

jld said:


> I don't think it is ever okay to hit anyone, for any reason. I would certainly never advise it.
> 
> What you do when it happens anyway is the question.


Really, never?

My GF and I were out with some of her friends a couple of weeks back.

One of these friends had too much to drink so we gathered her up to leave and take her home.

The guy she had been talking to at the bar didn't like the idea so much.

He began pulling her arm to drag her back in. We told him to go away but he wasn't having it.

Told GF to call 911. 

He got more physical.

I grabbed him by the neck and threw him against a car allowing GF and her friend to get in our car.

We left and gave report to police from a safe location.

Do you think I should have let him continue to physically harm her until the police showed up?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> And sometimes there are legal and/or financial reasons why a person cannot leave the first time, or the nth time.


This bothers me, every time someone says it. I cannot wrap my head around how finances can trump safety. And, I cannot think of a single legal aspect that would force someone to stay in an abusive relationship.

A good friend of mine was isolated by her boyfriend. She was not "allowed" to talk on the phone unless he was right there, among other things he did to her. One day, a friend distracted the boyfriend so she could call her parents to come get her and their son. They drove from Michigan to Arizona, in record time, and packed up my friend, her son, and the few belongings they could, while he was at work. They were gone from the state before he got home. She had no money saved up, no income of her own. She could have used the financial excuse. Even her parents could have done the same, but they went into debt to make sure she was safe.

The other option is a shelter. And that, as far as I can ascertain, would cover any legal reasons for not leaving. This is why I honestly cannot comprehend why someone could not, legally, leave. 

Another friend is currently married to an alcoholic. I have mentioned him in another thread, recently. She has only bern married for a few years, and a couple months ago, gave birth to their second child. About 2 weeks ago, he got drunk, came home, and put his hands on her... while she was holding their baby. He was pushed off by another woman who was there, and he then threw something at my friend... while she was still holding the baby. He never got physical before that point, or of he did, no one ever knew. But he went to jail. CPS came to my friend's house and she was given the choice: her husband or her kids. It wasn't a difficult choice for her. Does she love the man she married? Yes. She hopes he does what he needs to get better. But she also knows that there is no guarantee that he will remain sober, even after going through treatment. So, they are divorcing, and she has an advocate at a shelter as her representative, along with the lawyer. 

I do understand the *reluctance* to take those steps because I see what she is going through. But, seeing what she is dealing with, knowing her struggles... I just don't see what legal issues would possibly prevent someone from choosing safety.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> You didn't grow up a boy on a city playground where respect sometimes came only from a balled-up fist. I don't mean "looked up to" respect, I mean the kind that allows you to just live your life without the presence of constant bullying.





Ceegee said:


> Really, never?
> 
> My GF and I were out with some of her friends a couple of weeks back.
> 
> ...


There has to be a better way. There has to be an alternative to violence.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> There has to be a better way. There has to be an alternative to violence.


We're listening. What would you suggest?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Maricha75 said:


> @Cletus, my husband would have done the same thing you did... and rightfully so. Sorry, she (or even I) can claim "playfulness" all she/I likes. She was mad and punched you. It pisses me off when some think that a man should just "take it", solely BECAUSE he is a man. No, he shouldn't. He should NOT expect his gf or wife will hit him, any more than a wife should expect it of her husband. But, if the "weaker" wife punches her husbanf, she damn well better expect a similar response from him!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


This, and as a woman, it sends a message to me that I'm not responsible for my actions. That I can hit men, and say 'oh, I'm just being playful,' and my boyfriend should accept it. A toddler doesn't know better, but we do. Yes, if my boyfriend hit me, he'd do damage, but if I swung hard enough at him, I might leave a mark or bruise. Once violence enters into a relationship, I'm out...I don't care the reasons.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> We're listening. What would you suggest?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I'm thinking about it. Probably should just google it.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Ceegee said:


> Really, never?
> 
> My GF and I were out with some of her friends a couple of weeks back.
> 
> ...


I think sometimes, pure instincts kick in...''fight or flight,'' and you chose to fight, but maybe it wasn't a choice at all. You acted based on that person's safety being at risk. 

I'm not an advocate for violence but self defense if need be, should be acceptable, and this situation sounded that way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> I think sometimes, pure instincts kick in...''fight or flight,'' and you chose to fight, but maybe it wasn't a choice at all. You acted based on that person's safety being at risk.
> 
> I'm not an advocate for violence but self defense if need be, should be acceptable, and this situation sounded that way.


He could have just restrained him.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

jld said:


> He could have just restrained him.


Yes, that's true. But, we weren't there...so...


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

jld said:


> There has to be a better way. There has to be an alternative to violence.




There was an alternative. 

And a price to pay for it. 

I could have waited for the police to arrive. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> Yes, that's true. But, we weren't there...*so... *


So . . . what? The police are not there either when domestic violence is going on, right?

If it is determined that force must be used, then using the least amount possible to achieve the optimal result should be the goal. 

Was there some reason restraining him was not an option, Ceegee?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I guess people turn to violence when they feel they reasonably able to. If Cletus had not thought he could punch his wife, likely without damage to himself, he probably would not have done it.

Would you have claimed self defense, Cletus, if someone had reported you? Why or why not?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Cletus said:


> This is the side of the equality conversation that doesn't get as much air time.
> 
> I'm all for gender equality, even here.


It gets plenty of air time to be honest. Whenever the discussion turns to domestic violence here, it's obvious that out there the general community is quite used to women being assaulted by their partner, murdered. It's old news I guess. Who the f*ck cares right? Mention that some guy is nearly slapped by his partner and OMG it's f*cking armageddon.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I agree that there is usually a better way than violence. Violence should only be used as a last resort. So, if someone calls you a "***** ass ****" there are other resorts than hitting them. If is constantly antagonizing you and won't leave you alone after repeated tells not to, then they should get clocked in the face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Herschel said:


> I agree that there is usually a better way than violence. Violence should only be used as a last resort. So, if someone calls you a "***** ass ****" there are other resorts than hitting them. If is constantly antagonizing you and won't leave you alone after repeated tells not to, *then they should get clocked in the face.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. 

Otherwise we would have a law saying after x amount of times of feeling aggressed, you can "clock them in the face."

Does clock mean punch, btw?


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> About 1,600 women are murdered each year. About 1023 of those are murdered by their spouse/SO.


I am not making light of your statistics because every murder is a tragedy but have you seen the number of men who are killed every day by other men. 

We are a dangerous bunch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

breeze said:


> It gets plenty of air time to be honest. Whenever the discussion turns to domestic violence here, it's obvious that out there the general community is quite used to women being assaulted by their partner, murdered. It's old news I guess. Who the f*ck cares right? Mention that some guy is nearly slapped by his partner and OMG it's f*cking armageddon.


No kidding.

MEM posted a report from the UN once that said that a man's biggest fear in an intimate relationship is being embarrassed. A woman's biggest fear is being killed.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

jld said:


> No.
> 
> Otherwise we would have a law saying after x amount of times of feeling aggressed, you can "clock them in the face."
> 
> Does clock mean punch, btw?


Well, I was referring more to playground, kid stuff. I should have specified that, where real laws don't matter and kids torture each other's
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> I guess people turn to violence when they feel they reasonably able to. If Cletus had not thought he could punch his wife, likely without damage to himself, he probably would not have done it.
> 
> Would you have claimed self defense, Cletus, if someone had reported you? Why or why not?


So, you are implying that the *only* reason Cletus responded to his wife, in the same manner SHE began, is because you believe he knew HE wouldn't be hurt in the process? Are you kidding me?

Unbelievable.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Well, I was referring more to playground, kid stuff. I should have specified that, where real laws don't matter and kids torture each other's
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But we don't want that, either, do we? We don't want them to get started in the first place.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> So, you are implying that the *only* reason Cletus responded to his wife, in the same manner SHE began, is because you believe he knew HE wouldn't be hurt in the process? Are you kidding me?
> 
> Unbelievable.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Maricha, relax.

Let's wait for his response.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> I support gender equality to the extent there can be equality. If your wife or gf is much smaller then an equal response is too much....not only does it take less to hurt her but a guy can generally do a lot more damage.


There is a weapon factor too. You don't have to be all that strong to hurt somebody bad if you throw heavy objects.

I know a cop who's ex-wife did that crap. His fellow officers were not supportive. He knew it was time to leave when she chucked a cast iron frying pan. He dodged it and it destroyed the front of their stove.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> There has to be a better way. There has to be an alternative to violence.


Sometimes there is not the luxury of an alternative.

Real life doesn't always work like that.

Unicorns do not fly, nor do they fart rainbows.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Sometimes there is not the luxury of an alternative.
> 
> Real life doesn't always work like that.


And sometimes there is. And sometimes it does. 

Let's keep trying.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> Maricha, relax.
> 
> Let's wait for his response.


No, jld, I don't think I will relax, on this one. Your position, consistently, has bern that men are stronger, therefore it is impossible for a woman to be able to physically hurt them, without using some sort of weapon. That is a VERY dangerous point of view to hold. My husband is bigger and stronger than I am. But, I am VERY capable of physically harming him, without the use of a weapon, IF I was so inclined to do, which I have no desire to do. At best, implying such a notion is very naïve. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

jld said:


> So . . . what? The police are not there either when domestic violence is going on, right?
> 
> If it is determined that force must be used, then using the least amount possible to achieve the optimal result should be the goal.
> 
> Was there some reason restraining him was not an option, Ceegee?


The least amount of force gets you hurt. It gives them the opportunity to fight back.

When someone decides they are resorting to force, you respond with overwhelming force. That's how you can walk away.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

breeze said:


> It gets plenty of air time to be honest. Whenever the discussion turns to domestic violence here, it's obvious that out there the general community is quite used to women being assaulted by their partner, murdered. It's old news I guess. Who the f*ck cares right? Mention that some guy is nearly slapped by his partner and OMG it's f*cking armageddon.


Again, that's not the equality to which I was referring.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> Would you have claimed self defense, Cletus, if someone had reported you? Why or why not?


No. I would have stated it was a lesson in mutually assured destruction.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Cletus said:


> So what constitutes domestic violence?
> 
> Early in my courtship with my wife, she got mad at me one day and punched me in the shoulder, sorta hard. She claims to this day that it was supposed to be playful, but I didn't take it that way at the time, so I did the same right back at her. I warned her that I wasn't going to hit her nor was I going to become a punching bag, just in case she thought that a man was expected to do so.
> 
> ...



Oh boy, that's a sticky question! I'd go with unwarranted physical assault. But I'm not a good person.

I don't think your response was an overreaction. Why call the cops, bring in men armed with guns, to resolve a situation that can be resolved with the back of your hand and a serious discussion about how this is the first and last time this situation will occur?

I don't go around hitting women (or men for that matter) when I get angry at them. And in exchange, I expect the same courtesy. It's called reciprocity. If a woman feels like she's above such things, and that I can just be slapped around, then I'll reciprocate.

I do think there's a practicality case to be made, for a man to call the cops the first time. If you hit her back, you're likely going to jail _if she wants you to_. And that isn't a really big deal, except a DV conviction can cost you your rights permanently in the US. (ie gun ownership goes out the window) So it's worth weighing. 

The real question I'd pose is this: Is $300 and a night in jail worth your self respect, and nipping that kind of behavior in the bud?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> No, jld, I don't think I will relax, on this one. *Your position, consistently, has bern that men are stronger, therefore it is impossible for a woman to be able to physically hurt them, without using some sort of weapon.* That is a VERY dangerous point of view to hold. My husband is bigger and stronger than I am. But, I am VERY capable of physically harming him, without the use of a weapon, IF I was so inclined to do, which I have no desire to do. At best, implying such a notion is very naïve.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Quotes, please.

And I do believe you could hurt him. And I can believe you do not fear him in any way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> The least amount of force gets you hurt. It gives them the opportunity to fight back.
> 
> When someone decides they are resorting to force, you respond with overwhelming force. That's how you can walk away.





jld said:


> So . . . what? The police are not there either when domestic violence is going on, right?
> 
> If it is determined that force must be used, then *using the least amount possible to achieve the optimal result* should be the goal.
> 
> Was there some reason restraining him was not an option, Ceegee?


I think the overwhelming force option is risky. Why use a hammer on a thumb tack?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> No. I would have stated it was a lesson in mutually assured destruction.


I wonder how that would work as a legal defense.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> No, jld, I don't think I will relax, on this one. Your position, consistently, has bern that men are stronger, therefore it is impossible for a woman to be able to physically hurt them, without using some sort of weapon. That is a VERY dangerous point of view to hold. My husband is bigger and stronger than I am. But, I am VERY capable of physically harming him, without the use of a weapon, IF I was so inclined to do, which I have no desire to do. At best, implying such a notion is very naïve.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


There is also the fact that violent people are vastly more prone to switch to weapons once the force they are using does not reach their desired result.

There is a huge gap in severe assault. Far more women are beaten severely. When it comes to murder, there is only a small gender gap. Just over 1000 women per year, about 700 men per year in the US.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> This bothers me, every time someone says it. I cannot wrap my head around how finances can trump safety.


If a woman (or man) has no access to money, no job and no support system, where is she going to go? To a shelter for a short time. But they are going to put her out on the street. We had a poster her years ago in this situation. Actually she has a child. She applied for all kinds of financial help. But all the of waiting lists were too long, etc. She lives here where I live. I even did calling around for her and was shocked that she could not get anything. She ended up on the street.



Maricha75 said:


> And, I cannot think of a single legal aspect that would force someone to stay in an abusive relationship.


Here, let me help you with one legal aspect that force me to stay in an abusive relationship for 4 years.
After our son came along, my husband became angry and violent. It started slow and escalated over time. When my son was 3.5 years old I got a lawyer. I had evidence of abuse. At my lawyer’s advice I got an apartment and moved into it on the day that he was served.

He got a TEAM of lawyers who called an emergency meeting with the judge the very next day. 
The judge yelled at me. Told me that my accusations of abuse are not accepted by the court. That I had made them up. She refused to look at any of the evidence. Since there was no conviction of abuse, she said I was lying. And that I had unilaterally removed our son from the family home. (this was a female judge). She then ordered that the divorce papers be sealed because “We cannot have these papers, accusing a doctor of being that abusive, public record.” And then she granted my husband 100% custody of our son. 

Now my husband was only abusive of me. He was also abusive of our son. I could not allow a 3.5-year-old child live alone with his abusive father. So I ended the divorce and moved back in with my husband and son.

It took me 4 more years to get things together so that I could get to the point where my ex allowed me to leave with our son. By then my son was begging me to divorce his father. He was begging me to never leave him alone with his father, because as he said “When you are not here, he treats me like he treats you.” That out of the mouth of a 5-year-old.

I was not able to build a legal case of abuse against my husband because he became very careful. He did things that would not get him arrested. He was very careful. One time he even told me that he was exhausted checking himself and not beating me to a pulp.

Also there are threats that keep a woman (or man) in abusive situations. Many abusers threaten that they will kill their victim and/or family members if they dare to leave. My husband did that. So they stay out of fear that the guy will kill them, their parents, siblings, etc. 






Maricha75 said:


> A good friend of mine was isolated by her boyfriend. She was not "allowed" to talk on the phone unless he was right there, among other things he did to her. One day, a friend distracted the boyfriend so she could call her parents to come get her and their son. They drove from Michigan to Arizona, in record time, and packed up my friend, her son, and the few belongings they could, while he was at work. They were gone from the state before he got home. She had no money saved up, no income of her own. She could have used the financial excuse. Even her parents could have done the same, but they went into debt to make sure she was safe.


Do you really assume that everyone has friends and family willing to go to this extent to help them? Some do not. A surprising number do not.


Maricha75 said:


> The other option is a shelter. And that, as far as I can ascertain, would cover any legal reasons for not leaving. This is why I honestly cannot comprehend why someone could not, legally, leave.


Shelters only help a person for a short while. I know people who took the shelter rout who were put out on the street with nothing after a short while. Shelters are great as far as they go. But they do not go far enough in some cases. Sometimes they filled to capacity and you have to be on a waiting list. I know of shelters that will only take women and men with children. It’s the children that they are protecting. It’s often hard for a person with no children to find space in a shelter. And again, shelters are short term fixes. They have their place. 


Maricha75 said:


> Another friend is currently married to an alcoholic. I have mentioned him in another thread, recently. She has only bern married for a few years, and a couple months ago, gave birth to their second child. About 2 weeks ago, he got drunk, came home, and put his hands on her... while she was holding their baby. He was pushed off by another woman who was there, and he then threw something at my friend... while she was still holding the baby. He never got physical before that point, or of he did, no one ever knew. But he went to jail. CPS came to my friend's house and she was given the choice: her husband or her kids. It wasn't a difficult choice for her. Does she love the man she married? Yes. She hopes he does what he needs to get better. But she also knows that there is no guarantee that he will remain sober, even after going through treatment. So, they are divorcing, and she has an advocate at a shelter as her representative, along with the lawyer.
> I do understand the *reluctance* to take those steps because I see what she is going through. But, seeing what she is dealing with, knowing her struggles... I just don't see what legal issues would possibly prevent someone from choosing safety.


She lucky that she had witnesses. The cops do not always believe a person. I can tell you horror stories about this with some people.

Also, she did not have the witch of a judge that I had. She’s lucky for that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> *About 1,600 women are murdered each year.* About 1023 of those are murdered by their spouse/SO.





larry.gray said:


> There is also the fact that violent people are vastly more prone to switch to weapons once the force they are using does not reach their desired result.
> 
> There is a huge gap in severe assault. Far more women are beaten severely. When it comes to murder, there is only a small gender gap. *Just over 1000 women per year, about 700 men per year in the US.*


Maybe you could each link where you got your stats?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

_"Can men be the victims of domestic violence?

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, *95 percent of the victims of domestic violence are women*. The National Crime Victimization Survey consistently finds that *no matter who initiates the violence, women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be injured than are men*. It's important to realize the climate of intimidation and control that occurs in abusive families. Most men will say they are not afraid of the woman with whom they live, even if they had also been hit, scratched, or punched by her. However, you'll often hear that women are terrorized and live in constant fear of being battered by the man with whom they live. *The difference in strength and physical size puts a woman at more risk than a man."*_

Domestic Violence


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

larry.gray said:


> There is also the fact that violent people are vastly more prone to switch to weapons once the force they are using does not reach their desired result.
> 
> There is a huge gap in severe assault. Far more women are beaten severely. When it comes to murder, there is only a small gender gap. Just over 1000 women per year, about 700 men per year in the US.


"In 2000, 1,247 women and 440 men were killed by an intimate partner. "


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> Quotes, please.
> 
> And I do believe you could hurt him. And I can believe you do not fear him in any way.


That's the real problem, jld. You say it in such a way that you are able to backtrack. You do it often. And when someone calls you on it, they are the ones who get reprimanded on it. It is innuendo, implication. Of course you won't come right out and say the words "women can't hurt men because they are weaker" because then, you couldn't back out of the statement. Instead, you make comments like "he wouldn't have done it if he knew he would get hurt, too." 

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> That's the real problem, jld. You say it in such a way that you are able to backtrack. You do it often. And when someone calls you on it, they are the ones who get reprimanded on it. It is innuendo, implication. Of course you won't come right out and say the words "women can't hurt men because they are weaker" because then, you couldn't back out of the statement. Instead, you make comments like "he wouldn't have done it if he knew he would get hurt, too."
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Again, if you provide the quotes, we can discuss. Otherwise it is just your interpretation of whatever I have said.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

jld said:


> Was there some reason restraining him was not an option, Ceegee?



I could have. 

I was a bouncer in my younger days so I do know how. 

My main objective was to stop the assault as soon as possible. 

A headlock wouldn't necessarily stop him from grabbing. Not right away. 

A shot to the throat would. Plus, he deserved it. 

He needed something to remember next time he thought about grabbing and groping a woman. 




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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> I could have.
> 
> I was a bouncer in my younger days so I do know how.
> 
> ...


But this is going past the mandate, no? You wanted to teach him a lesson, not just protect your friend.

Isn't that vigilante justice?


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

jld said:


> But this is going past the mandate, no? You wanted to teach him a lesson, not just protect your friend.
> 
> Isn't that vigilante justice?




It's protecting my friend and maybe someone else's friend/daughter/wife/sister/mother in the future.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> It's protecting my friend and maybe someone else's friend/daughter/wife/sister/mother in the future.


So where are the limits?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

jld said:


> Again, if you provide the quotes, we can discuss. Otherwise it is just your interpretation of whatever I have said.




It is THE message you communicate. If you believe women are weaker than men you can feel secure in telling us that. TAM is a safe place. 

If that is your position, that is ok. It has been that way for most of human history and you would be in company with billions of people. We believe in honesty and transparency.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> It is THE message you communicate. If you believe women are weaker than men you can feel secure in telling us that. TAM is a safe place.
> 
> If that is your position, that is ok. It has been that way for most of human history and you would be in company with billions of people. We believe in honesty and transparency.


I think women are more *vulnerable* than men. And the passage I quoted a few posts ago shows why.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If a woman (or man) has no access to money, no job and no support system, where is she going to go? To a shelter for a short time. But they are going to put her out on the street. We had a poster her years ago in this situation. Actually she has a child. She applied for all kinds of financial help. But all the of waiting lists were too long, etc. She lives here where I live. I even did calling around for her and was shocked that she could not get anything. She ended up on the street.
> 
> 
> Here, let me help you with one legal aspect that force me to stay in an abusive relationship for 4 years.
> ...


I don't recall the poster you mentioned, sorry. Of course, shelters are meant to be temporary. Why would anyone think it is a permanent solution? 

Of course I don't think everyone has family that can drop everything and come get them. Hers was only one example of someone who got out that way. 

My other friend has kicked her husband out multiple times because of his excessive drinking. Each time, she let him come back because he promised to stop drinking. This time... the decision was taken out of their hands. Yes, I realize she still had a choice to make, but it wasn't a hard one, given the two options: husband or kids.

Unfortunately, all of us only have our own experiences to go by. Ele, how many years ago did yours occur? Back then, that was the assumed position in situations such as yours. My point was that even those who lack funds should not use that as the excuse to stay.

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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> It is THE message you communicate. If you believe women are weaker than men you can feel secure in telling us that. TAM is a safe place.
> 
> If that is your position, that is ok. It has been that way for most of human history and you would be in company with billions of people. We believe in honesty and transparency.


It doesn't matter, blue. She is just going to talk in circles anyway.

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I thought this was interesting:

_"This gets to the heart of what must change. We cannot expect to end domestic violence solely through our criminal justice system because that is applying an individual-level response to a social problem. *Domestic violence impacts nearly 20 percent of adult women. We should consider approaching men’s domestic violence as a significant behavioral and public health issue, similar to smoking, which requires large-scale, adequately funded prevention and intervention efforts *that can be covered by health insurance. Domestic violence programs have been shown to reduce recidivism odds by more than 60 percent.

Only then will we see any significant increase in accountability of offenders across our communities and safety for our women and children in their homes."_

Mandatory Prosecutions Wouldn't Change Violent Behavior - NYTimes.com


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> I think women are more *vulnerable* than men. And the passage I quoted a few posts ago shows why.


Right. A quote from a page that focuses on the abuse of WOMEN. 

Not surprisingly, the first article that popped up when I searched for men being victims of domestic violence was actually an article about MEN being VICTIMS. So, that makes me wonder how the page you shared popped up. It wasn't even on my list of results. :scratchhead:

"According to the CDC, one in four adult men in the U.S. will become a victim of domestic violence during his lifetime. That’s upwards of three million male domestic violence victims every year, or one man in America abused by an intimate or domestic partner every 37.8 seconds."

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry

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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> I don't recall the poster you mentioned, sorry. Of course, shelters are meant to be temporary. Why would anyone think it is a permanent solution?


The issue is that if they leave a situation that is bad when they don't have enough to survive on they will be on the street. A shelter can be a temp situation. but if they cannot find a job and place to live, they are out on the street after all. 

For most people, being on the street is extremely scary. It can be as dangerous as being in an abusive marriage. And then with no roof over your head and no food.



Maricha75 said:


> Of course I don't think everyone has family that can drop everything and come get them. Hers was only one example of someone who got out that way.
> 
> My other friend has kicked her husband out multiple times because of his excessive drinking. Each time, she let him come back because he promised to stop drinking. This time... the decision was taken out of their hands. Yes, I realize she still had a choice to make, but it wasn't a hard one, given the two options: husband or kids.
> 
> Unfortunately, all of us only have our own experiences to go by. Ele, how many years ago did yours occur? Back then, that was the assumed position in situations such as yours.


The first time I tried to leave was in 1993.



Maricha75 said:


> My point was that even those who lack funds should not use that as the excuse to stay.


I agree that a lot of victims can build a support system and eventually take care of themselves financially. But some have no support system and are not able to find work that can support them.

That's why a lot of the help given in helping victims of abuse is to help them figure out how to go from no access to money to being able to support themselves. They often need help to get through that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Right. A quote from a page that focuses on the abuse of WOMEN.
> 
> "According to the CDC, one in four adult men in the U.S. will become a victim of domestic violence during his lifetime. That’s upwards of three million male domestic violence victims every year, or one man in America abused by an intimate or domestic partner every 37.8 seconds."
> 
> ...


The CDC’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, released again in 2013 with new analysis, reports in its first-ever study focusing on victimization by sexual orientation that the lifetime prevalence of rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner was 43.8 percent for lesbians, 61.1 percent for bisexual women, and 35 percent for heterosexual women, while it was 26 percent for gay men, 37.3 percent for bisexual men, and 29 percent for heterosexual men (this study did not include gender identity or expression).


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The CDC’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, released again in 2013 with new analysis, reports in its first-ever study focusing on victimization by sexual orientation that the lifetime prevalence of rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner was 43.8 percent for lesbians, 61.1 percent for bisexual women, and 35 percent for heterosexual women, while it was 26 percent for gay men, 37.3 percent for bisexual men, and 29 percent for heterosexual men (this study did not include gender identity or expression).


Not the point I was making. I was making a point based on something she had shared, from an obviously biased page. Can men be victims of domestic violence? Absolutely! Are women more likely to be victims? Most likely. Are men less likely to report? No doubt about it, for fear of disbelief because the prevailing sentiment is that women cannot be abusive toward their husbands. Like I said, a very dangerous position to hold.

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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Maricha75 said:


> My point was that even those who lack funds should not use that as the excuse to stay.



People stay in bad situations for all sorts of reasons. Some of my fav TAMers are in bad situations. They give great advice but they self admit they don't follow their own advice. Words are easy. Action is a lot harder.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Not the point I was making. I was making a point based on something she had shared, from an obviously biased page. Can men be victims of domestic violence? Absolutely! Are women more likely to be victims? Most likely. Are men less likely to report? No doubt about it, for fear of disbelief because the prevailing sentiment is that women cannot be abusive toward their husbands. Like I said, a very dangerous position to hold.


I posted that because I thought it was interesting.

It also shows that men can be victims. And it shows that women can be perpetrators.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Right. A quote from a page that focuses on the abuse of WOMEN.
> 
> "According to the CDC, one in four adult men in the U.S. will become a victim of domestic violence during his lifetime. That’s upwards of three million male domestic violence victims every year, or one man in America abused by an intimate or domestic partner every 37.8 seconds."
> 
> ...


That project, done by PBS, a reputable source, may have focused on women, but the statistics are valid either way. And the question I quoted was on the abuse of men.

I was not able to access your link. I did find this, however:

30 Shocking Domestic Violence Statistics That Remind Us It's An Epidemic

It says a woman is beaten every 9 seconds.

No one is saying it is okay for men to be beaten, either. But focusing on where the need is greatest is not unreasonable.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> That project, done by PBS, a reputable source, may have focused on women, but the statistics are valid either way. And the question I quoted was on the abuse of men.
> 
> I was not able to access your link. I did find this, however:
> 
> ...


From the same article you just shared:

"1 in 7

The number of men who will be victims of severe violence by an intimate partner in their lifetimes."

1 in 4 women is what the quote shared. Yes, we know that women are more likely to be victims than men. However, it seems men are not as far removed as some pages would like it to appear.

I think it would be prudent to focus on BOTH because if you only focus on women, you are, effectively, telling men that they need to suck it up, that they don't matter... which is EXACTLY what male victims are afraid of.

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> From the same article you just shared:
> 
> "1 in 7
> 
> ...


They have almost half the risk, Maricha. That is significant.

Certainly those male victims need help. But I do think that we need to focus where the need is greater.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> From the same article you just shared:
> 
> "1 in 7
> 
> ...


I agree with this. And the good thing is that we can focus on both. There is not good reason not to.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> They have almost half the risk, Maricha. That is significant.
> 
> Certainly those male victims need help. But I do think that we need to focus where the need is greater.


I disagree. I think the focus should be on stopping it ALL, not just one group at,a time. Like I said, by focusing ONLY on women, you are telling the men who are victims that they don't matter. 

Tell me, would you feel that way if your son was a victim? And don't come back with how you couldn't see how he would ever be in such a situation. Would you, if your son was in a domestic violence situation with his wife, and SHE was the one abusing HIM, tell him that the focus needs to be on female victims, not male victims? 

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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> They have almost half the risk, Maricha. That is significant.
> 
> Certainly those male victims need help. But I do think that we need to focus where the need is greater.


While I agree that women are more at risk. But we can focus on both. 

I know quite a few women who have been in abusive relationships.

One is a guy whose wife was threatening him with a butcher knife while he was holding their year old baby. This was not the only thing that she did, but just the worst.

Another is a woman who was pulling a gun on her husband with their 3 children around. She did this many times.

And my sister has a friend who accidently killed her husband when she hit him in the head on with one of those old land lines.

Sure, not all abuse cases of female on male are that awful, just as the reverse is true, but they are equally as important.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

jld said:


> They have almost half the risk, Maricha. That is significant.
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly those male victims need help. But I do think that we need to focus where the need is greater.


Statistically yes. Individually no. 

People are not a statistic. Just because a person is in a minority group with respect to the topic does not mean they don't deserve help. We can help BOTH. 

I had a friend die from breast cancer. HE died. Should we only research breast cancer in women because statistically they get it more often?

Women statistically live 7 years longer than men. Should we cut back on health research for women until their average death age reaches parity with men?

Should we stop spending money on heart attacks in women and focus on where the need is greater - men?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> I disagree. I think the focus should be on stopping it ALL, not just one group at,a time. Like I said, by focusing ONLY on women, you are telling the men who are victims that they don't matter.
> 
> Tell me, would you feel that way if your son was a victim? And don't come back with how you couldn't see how he would ever be in such a situation. Would you, if your son was in a domestic violence situation with his wife, and SHE was the one abusing HIM, tell him that the focus needs to be on female victims, not male victims?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I would certainly help him in any way I could. And I would encourage anyone who is so inspired to help other men as well.

But nothing I am seeing as I read indicates the risk is equal. I will be focusing on where, according to page after page I am reading, the risk is greater.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> I would certainly help him in any way I could. And I would encourage anyone who is so inspired to help other men as well.
> 
> But nothing I am seeing as I read indicates the risk is equal. I will be focusing on where, according to page after page I am reading, the risk is greater.


jld, we don't have choose who to help. We can help anyone who needs it.

For decades now, the domestic violence organizations here where I live will help anyone who comes in to get help. Gender does not matter.

Now there is a difference in shelter space. Shelter space is always given to people who have children with them. Some 90% of those who show up, with children, for shelter space are women. so some 90% of he available shelter space is for females with children. They are often housed in dormitory like rooms. So of course they are not going to mix men and women.

But there is space also for men with children.

There is very little space for victims who do not have children with them. Gender does not matter. They are on their own, if they are no lucky enough to find an open bed.

This how they deal with the fact that there are more women with children, than anyone else looking for shelter space. And the fact that women and men with children in tow are the most vulnerable.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> Quotes, please.
> 
> And I do believe you could hurt him. And I can believe you do not fear him in any way.


Here are some quotes for you, JLD
Stuntman Eddie Kidd's wife Samantha jailed for assaulting him - BBC News
Jill Connors? Assault On Husband ? ?Married To Medicine? Star Charged - Hollywood Life
No Cookies | Herald Sun Wife jailed in plot to kill husband
Jail lieutenant charged with assaulting husband
Violent wife ripped husband's scrotum during argument | Exeter Express and Echo


> Exeter Crown Court heard that 51 year old Collings had also left her husband blind in one eye after poking both his eyes with her fingers during a campaign of violence.
> Collings was spared jail for the series of attacks on her one legged husband who had lost the limb in a road accident when he was 20 years old.


CCSO: Woman attacks man's wife with cleaver
Bath Police: Wife Stabs Husband in Back With Kitchen Knife - Stor
Woman who laced husband?s milkshake, then bludgeoned him wants lighter sentence | New York Post


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> I would certainly help him in any way I could. And I would encourage anyone who is so inspired to help other men as well.
> 
> But nothing I am seeing as I read indicates the risk is equal. I will be focusing on where, according to page after page I am reading, the risk is greater.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence


> Campaign group Parity claims assaults by wives and girlfriends are often ignored by police and media
> 
> About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.
> 
> Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity.


Parity - Campaigning for equal rights for UK men and women.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I posted that because I thought it was interesting.
> 
> It also shows that men can be victims. *And it shows that women can be perpetrators.*


Nothing proves that stronger than the bolded number below.



EleGirl said:


> The CDC’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, released again in 2013 with new analysis, reports in its first-ever study focusing on victimization by sexual orientation that the lifetime prevalence of rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner was *43.8 percent for lesbians,* 61.1 percent for bisexual women, and 35 percent for heterosexual women, while it was 26 percent for gay men, 37.3 percent for bisexual men, and 29 percent for heterosexual men (this study did not include gender identity or expression).


It's got to be pretty hard to blame men for woman on woman violence, but I'm sure there are some who will find a way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Here are some quotes for you, JLD
> Stuntman Eddie Kidd's wife Samantha jailed for assaulting him - BBC News
> Jill Connors? Assault On Husband ? ?Married To Medicine? Star Charged - Hollywood Life
> No Cookies | Herald Sun
> ...


Those were not the quotes I was referring to, Matt. Read the post again.

And I have read some accounts of women killing or injuring men, too. I have never said it is okay or that it does not exist. 

But when you have an 85 or 95% rate of women being severely aggressed in comparison to men, then I think the focus needs to be where the risk is greater.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> Those were not the quotes I was referring to, Matt. Read the post again.
> 
> And I have read some accounts of women killing or injuring men, too. I have never said it is okay or that it does not exist.
> 
> But when you have an 85 or 95% rate of women being severely aggressed in comparison to men, then I think the focus needs to be where the risk is greater.


I knew that.

*But I decided you needed some quotes like the ones I provided.*

I do hope you will take the time to click on them and read them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence
> 
> Parity - Campaigning for equal rights for UK men and women.


Could be an MRA group. Not sure.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I knew that.
> 
> *But I decided you needed some quotes like the ones I provided.*
> 
> I do hope you will take the time to click on them and read them.


I know some women are aggressors, Matt. But it is not in proportion, not in severity, nor outcome, as men.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

jld said:


> Could be an MRA group. Not sure.


Yep, a major British newspaper is now just a shill organization for MRA's.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

jld said:


> I think women are more *vulnerable* than men. And the passage I quoted a few posts ago shows why.




All women? Most women? Some women?

Why in the world would anyone then vote for a vulnerable person for President of the US?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> Those were not the quotes I was referring to, Matt. Read the post again.
> 
> And I have read some accounts of women killing or injuring men, too. I have never said it is okay or that it does not exist.
> 
> But when you have an 85 or 95% rate of women being severely aggressed in comparison to men, then I think the focus needs to be where the risk is greater.


But WHY should the focus be on one over the other? WHY can't you focus on both, equally? Serioysly, jld. I know I am becoming a broken record, hete, but it bears repeating. You saying the focus should be on women victims is sending the message to men victims that they are not important. I think it says much more when a WOMAN who has been abused is telling you the same thing... to focus on BOTH, not just one.

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The CDC’s 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, released again in 2013 with new analysis, reports in its first-ever study focusing on victimization by sexual orientation that *the lifetime prevalence* of rape, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner was 43.8 percent for lesbians, 61.1 percent for bisexual women, and 35 percent for heterosexual women, while it was 26 percent for gay men, 37.3 percent for bisexual men, and 29 percent for heterosexual men (this study did not include gender identity or expression).


Ele, I don't think this is the same study, but a similar one. *The fine print seems to be over a lifetime, which could include time spent with an opposite sex partner at some point*:

_The VAWA article is the Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181867.pdf)_

_"It seems like a lot of people are having trouble with the first reported statistics, since they were not elaborated on fully. These statistics ("21.5 percent of men and 35.4 percent of women living with a same-sex partner experienced intimate-partner physical violence in their lifetimes, compared with 7.1 percent and 20.4 percent for men and women, respectively, with a history of only opposite-sex cohabitation") include violence perpetrated, regardless of sex. There is another statistic in the paper that breaks it down by sex of the perpetrator:
- 11.4% of women who have lived with women have been assaulted by their female partner
- *30.4% of women who have lived with women have been assaulted by a male partner*
- *20.3% of women who have lived with men have been assaulted by a male partner*
- 10.8% of men who have lived with men have been assaulted by a female partner.
- *15.4% of men who have lived with men have been assaulted by a male partner*
- 7.7% of men who have lived with women have been assaulted by a female partner.

*The article also notes that intimate partner violence is "perpetrated primarily by men, whether against male or female partners." *That is not to say that domestic violence against men (of any sexual orientation) is not an issue. Women do perpetrate sexual and domestic violence against both men and women, as indicated above. There is a stigma against male victims of sexual assault that leads to not only increased shame, but a decreased likelihood of acknowledgement or report of the abuse. I am glad that there are investigations into populations which have been historically ignored by sexual assault studies, so we can have a more comprehensive and informed discussion about how to prevent sexual assault for everyone."_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Those were not the quotes I was referring to, Matt. Read the post again.
> 
> And I have read some accounts of women killing or injuring men, too. I have never said it is okay or that it does not exist.
> 
> But when you have an 85 or 95% rate of women being severely aggressed in comparison to men, then I think the focus needs to be where the risk is greater.


You keep missing the obvious. Those are reported crimes. Domestic violence is one of the most underreported crimes right behind sex assault. And men report this even less or don't know they are the victim of it. 

Both men and women are victims of it and we need to treat both


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> This makes things very interesting as a guy, the best way to respond. I am not talking about hitting her back, but it is clear that the cards are stacked against guys in these types of situations so you almost have to go into self preservation mode (not from being harmed by her, but to avoid being hauled away by the cops without justification). Are you almost forced to report or document any sort of violence as soon as possible just so you have it on record to protect yourself?


Yeah but there is a reason that the cards are stacked against guys. Generally we are much more capable of doing serious damage to most woman then them to us.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> I know some women are aggressors, Matt. But it is not in proportion, not in severity, nor outcome, as men.


A one-legged man, blinded in one eye, the sight of the other eye damaged, his scrotum ripped open.

Yes, JLD. I see what you mean.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> Again, if you provide the quotes, we can discuss. Otherwise it is just your interpretation of whatever I have said.





Maricha75 said:


> That's the real problem, jld. You say it in such a way that you are able to backtrack. You do it often. And when someone calls you on it, they are the ones who get reprimanded on it. It is innuendo, implication. Of course you won't come right out and say the words "women can't hurt men because they are weaker" because then, you couldn't back out of the statement. Instead, you make comments like "he wouldn't have done it if he knew he would get hurt, too."
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk





jld said:


> I guess people turn to violence when they feel they reasonably able to. *If Cletus had not thought he could punch his wife, likely without damage to himself, he probably would not have done it.*
> 
> Would you have claimed self defense, Cletus, if someone had reported you? Why or why not?




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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> You keep missing the obvious. Those are reported crimes. Domestic violence is one of the most underreported crimes right behind sex assault. And men report this even less or don't know they are the victim of it.
> 
> Both men and women are victims of it and we need to treat both


No one is forbidding anyone treatment.

I have read assertions from both sides, that men both under and over report, and that women do the same. 

I have also read that the harm done to men is much less serious than that done to women, but they are all lumped together, serious and light injury, into the male/female statistics.

If we want to better understand the risks involved, and to whom, I think all of this needs to be separated out and made clear.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

jld said:


> Could be an MRA group. Not sure.


They started out promoting the idea of parity in pension ages back in the 1980s.



> Welcome to PARITY
> Equal Rights for Men and Women
> PARITY was first formed in 1986 as the Campaign for Equal State Pension Ages, a wholly voluntary organisation concerned with the equal rights of men and women. It gained charitable status in January 2005
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> No, jld, I don't think I will relax, on this one. *Your position, consistently, has bern that men are stronger, therefore it is impossible for a woman to be able to physically hurt them, without using some sort of weapon. That is a VERY dangerous point of view to hold. *My husband is bigger and stronger than I am. But, I am VERY capable of physically harming him, without the use of a weapon, IF I was so inclined to do, which I have no desire to do. At best, implying such a notion is very naïve.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


This is what I asked you to provide quotes for, Maricha.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Yeah but there is a reason that the cards are stacked against guys. Generally we are much more capable of doing serious damage to most woman then them to us.




Too bad the laws don't follow "Equal Justice Under Law", as chiseled on the front of the US SC building. Laws are supposed to apply equally to all. But historically the laws were written by men who viewed women as vulnerable, meaning inferior and weaker than men and therefore deserving of the protection.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> A one-legged man, blinded in one eye, the sight of the other eye damaged, his scrotum ripped open.
> 
> Yes, JLD. I see what you mean.


No one is discounting individual cases. Of course they are terrible and need to be prosecuted.

But when we are looking at statistics, it is the aggregate we are looking at.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Yeah but there is a reason that the cards are stacked against guys. Generally we are much more capable of doing serious damage to most woman then them to us.


I agree. And the cards are stacked against guys not due to women but to the abusing guys.

Every man pays for the violence some men do.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> I agree. And the cards are stacked against guys not due to women but to the abusing guys.
> 
> Every man pays for the violence some men do.


Because when women attack men, or presumably when women attack other women, it's all the fault of some other, random men.

And now we are all falling into a hole!


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Duguesclin said:


> I agree. And the cards are stacked against guys not due to women but to the abusing guys.
> 
> 
> 
> Every man pays for the violence some men do.




So you don't believe in equal justice under the law? You prefer to have a set of laws for men and a set for women?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> If a woman (or man) has no access to money, no job and no support system, where is she going to go? To a shelter for a short time. But they are going to put her out on the street. We had a poster her years ago in this situation. Actually she has a child. She applied for all kinds of financial help. But all the of waiting lists were too long, etc. She lives here where I live. I even did calling around for her and was shocked that she could not get anything. She ended up on the street.
> 
> 
> Here, let me help you with one legal aspect that force me to stay in an abusive relationship for 4 years.
> ...


I believe this. I have experienced some of this though not physical violence but the physical intimidation.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> Every man pays for the violence some men do.


If that were the case then why have laws at all. Seriously what you describe is opposite of justice. It's prejudice.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> No one is forbidding anyone treatment.
> 
> I have read assertions from both sides, that men both under and *over report,* and that women do the same.
> 
> ...


Please quote where they over report. I have been doing this a long time and never once heard that. Quote that source please


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> This is what I asked you to provide quotes for, Maricha.


And I stated already that you skirt around actually saying those exact words. Unfortunately, every post you have made in this thread supports my statement. You do not truly think a woman can physically harming her husband. Not to the point that it would easily be recognized as domestic violence.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> So you don't believe in equal justice under the law? You prefer to have a set of laws for men and a set for women?


Where do you read I do not believe in equal justice? 

When a cop sees a couple accusing each other of domestic violence. If he sides for the woman he is likely going to be 85% right. In 15% of the cases he will be wrong. This is what is called having the cards stacked against you.

Men need to band together to denounce domestic violence, especially men against women. Women hurting men is not right either. But it is not the main problem.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> They have almost half the risk, Maricha. That is significant.
> 
> Certainly those male victims need help. But I do think that we need to focus where the need is greater.


Misandry once again in full display.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Another thread successfully derailed by one person's gender bias. Any other bigot would not be allowed to do this.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> Where do you read I do not believe in equal justice?
> 
> When a cop sees a couple accusing each other of domestic violence. If he sides for the woman he is likely going to be 85% right. In 15% of the cases he will be wrong. This is what is called having the cards stacked against you.
> 
> Men need to band together to denounce domestic violence, especially men against women. Women hurting men is not right either. But it is not the main problem.


I suspect you are all for profiling then?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Misandry once again in full display.


People will choose to interpret what they read in a way that supports their own already formed opinions.

I don't see someone who wants different laws or punishments for a person based on their sex, but someone who sees limited resources being available to tackle a problem and a different level of need.

E.g. you have 5 loaves of bread and one family who is starving and on the brink of death and another who is also hungry but is coping, so you give the majority of the bread to the nearly dead family.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

breeze said:


> People will choose to interpret what they read in a way that supports their own already formed opinions.
> 
> I don't see someone who wants different laws or punishments for a person based on their sex, but someone who sees limited resources being available to tackle a problem and a different level of need.
> 
> E.g. you have 5 loaves of bread and one family who is starving and on the brink of death and another who is also hungry but is coping, so you give the majority of the bread to the nearly dead family.


Or if you ignore the half-starved family and say: "Come back for some bread next week. We gave it all to the family who we thought was worse off than you."


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Duguesclin said:


> Where do you read I do not believe in equal justice?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The cop should act on the evidence, not act on the option that statistically is the more likely outcome. That is called profiling. And it is wrong. The cop should not "side" with anyone but follow the law. Equally. 

Men have already denounced DV. Watch any football game and you will see it in an advert. It is not like there is a pro DV group out there.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> Or if you ignore the half-starved family and say: "Come back for some bread next week. We gave it all to the family who we thought was worse off than you."


Yes, that is also a possibility, and would increase the time it took for everyone to become well.

It's also a possibility that people look at the starving family and think their problems are too hard to fix and we're sick of trying.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> The cop should act on the evidence, not act on the option that statistically is the more likely outcome. That is called profiling. And it is wrong. The cop should not "side" with anyone but follow the law. Equally.
> 
> Men have already denounced DV. Watch any football game and you will see it in an advert. It is not like there is a pro DV group out there.


Yeah, they should, but they come from a society where men are the aggressors a majority of the time. They've probably seen the very ugly side of it in person through their job. They are still human at the end of the day and we all see the world through a filter of our experiences.

I don't agree with the fact that men have denounced DV, in reality. It's more ignored than anything, until very recently.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

breeze said:


> People will choose to interpret what they read in a way that supports their own already formed opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is not a comparable analogy. How about you have 5 starving people, 4 girls and one boy.? You have four loaves of bread. You give all the bread to the girls because there are more girls than boys. That would be equivalent to this thread.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Another thread successfully derailed by one person's gender bias. Any other bigot would not be allowed to do this.




This is an open discussion thread without an OP seeking help so tj or derailing is ok. But i agree with you on the other points.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

DV occurs with both genders as the attackers. Its under-reported, not clear which gender under-reports more. I don't care. Each case should be judged on the available evidence. 

Treating someone differently because people *like* them have done bad things in the past is at the root of a lot of evil.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> This is an open discussion thread without an OP seeking help so tj or derailing is ok. But i agree with you on the other points.


But again someone has switched the railway/railroad points and the bewildered passengers and crew notice with dismay that the train will be passing through Crazy Town, Loonyville and Pointless Cove.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> This is an open discussion thread without an OP seeking help so tj or derailing is ok. But i agree with you on the other points.


But we are now debating which sex is more worthy of help. Same old same old.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

It is on topic for this thread.. Someone previously ignored the direct question asked before if they hit their spouse. It leads me to think they do.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

I have 0 tolerance for physical violence in a marriage. I grew up in an abusive home. If my husband so much as shoved me, or stood over me yelling, I would divorce him that minute. Yes, I consider standing over someone and yelling to be violent behavior. 

As for advocating that someone should just hit their spouse back to teach them some kind of lesson, that has to be one of the most dysfunctional things I've read on this board. Smh.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

We come from a history of extreme violence. Stealing a person's money was a serious crime but beating them nearly to death while doing so was not. We start moving forward to a society where violence is frowned upon and we write down that people should probably stop hurting each other, but we still have people in our society who grew up seeing their neighbour beat his wife senseless on a regular basis and nothing was ever done and no one ever helped her, but we persecute a woman on a forum for having the point of view that DV against women is a bigger problem than DV against men. The move to equality is not going to be without some residual anger at the injustices committed, but the anger against women in society for daring to put a toe over the line of perceived equality that is regularly stomped on by their male counterparts (yeah, just dare to be a woman online who speaks up for other women and wait for the death and rape threats from men to pour in) is like pouring boiling water on a burn.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

larry.gray said:


> Someone previously ignored the direct question asked before if they hit their spouse. It leads me to think they do.


huh?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm all for the non-violent approach, wherever possible, but sometimes in the moment, there is no other alternative. About 20 years ago, I was out with friends and this guy kept trying to hit on me. I kept saying no and tried to ignore him but he wouldn't listen. A bit later in the night, I got separated from my friends and was by the emergency exit and he really and I mean REALLY turned it on. He was all over me and I kept trying to push him away...when he grabbed my arm and tried to drag me out the door I clocked him one. Knocked him out cold. My dad was so proud, hehe - even the cops were impressed!

In that moment, I had no choice - there was no way in he!l I was going out that door with him...no way. I'll never forget how I felt in that moment - blind terror. 

Domestic Violence is a scourge in all societies, and the perpetrators, regardless of gender, should be punished severely. My husband's ex wife used to yell and scream at him a lot, and one day she went to far and jumped on him, knocking him to the ground, and tried to strangle him - while their 4 year old daughter stood at the top of the stairs watching  He wrestled her off and walked outside, grabbed an esky and to dispense his rage bashed it against a tree in the front yard. Did he charge her? Nope. Didn't even call the cops. I couldn't believe it - I told him he should have called the police, she should've been hauled off to jail and been charged with domestic violence. You'd better believe she'd have done that to him if the situation were reversed.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Celes said:


> I have 0 tolerance for physical violence in a marriage. I grew up in an abusive home. If my husband so much as shoved me, or stood over me yelling, I would divorce him that minute. Yes, I consider standing over someone and yelling to be violent behavior.
> 
> As for advocating that someone should just hit their spouse back to teach them some kind of lesson, that has to be one of the most dysfunctional things I've read on this board. Smh.


Very much this. There seems to be more and more talk of this on here, lately...I can't believe how many people tolerate this crap in their relationships.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

frusdil said:


> I'm all for the non-violent approach, wherever possible, but sometimes in the moment, there is no other alternative. About 20 years ago, I was out with friends and this guy kept trying to hit on me. I kept saying no and tried to ignore him but he wouldn't listen. A bit later in the night, I got separated from my friends and was by the emergency exit and he really and I mean REALLY turned it on. He was all over me and I kept trying to push him away...when he grabbed my arm and tried to drag me out the door I clocked him one. Knocked him out cold. My dad was so proud, hehe - even the cops were impressed!


Awsome!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

breeze said:


> but we persecute a woman on a forum for having the point of view that DV against women is a bigger problem than DV against men.


That is not what she said she said we should not worry about violence against the men because the woman are a bigger problem. 

And I qoute -

"I would certainly help him in any way I could. And I would encourage anyone who is so inspired to help other men as well.

But nothing I am seeing as I read indicates the risk is equal. I will be focusing on where, according to page after page I am reading, the risk is greater."

Taking that logic into account then since two-thirds of homicide victims (68%) were male - England (I posted this for you Matt) and 
of the 12,996 murder victims in 2010 for which supplemental data were received, most (77.4 percent) were male - USA we should really only put our resources towards male homicides, because they are two-thirds at risk. 

Do you see how stupid that logic is? Only a person blind by their own bigotry could make such a statement. It should be laughed at not supported.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

frusdil said:


> I'm all for the non-violent approach, wherever possible, but sometimes in the moment, there is no other alternative. About 20 years ago, I was out with friends and this guy kept trying to hit on me. I kept saying no and tried to ignore him but he wouldn't listen. A bit later in the night, I got separated from my friends and was by the emergency exit and he really and I mean REALLY turned it on. He was all over me and I kept trying to push him away...when he grabbed my arm and tried to drag me out the door I clocked him one. Knocked him out cold. My dad was so proud, hehe - even the cops were impressed!


That is a perfect example where violence is good. I hope he was prosecuted too.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

larry.gray said:


> That is a perfect example where violence is good. I hope he was prosecuted too.


If not for violence everyone in Europe would be speaking German, before that French.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Celes said:


> I have 0 tolerance for physical violence in a marriage. I grew up in an abusive home. If my husband so much as shoved me, or stood over me yelling, I would divorce him that minute. Yes, I consider standing over someone and yelling to be violent behavior.
> 
> As for advocating that someone should just hit their spouse back to teach them some kind of lesson, that has to be one of the most dysfunctional things I've read on this board. Smh.


Yes, violence begets violence. Where does it end if a person chooses to go down that path? How do you know a person's capacity for violence until they're in a situation where it's tested?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Resisting sexual assault / rape is definitely NOT domestic violence. You did right. 



frusdil said:


> I'm all for the non-violent approach, wherever possible, but sometimes in the moment, there is no other alternative. About 20 years ago, I was out with friends and this guy kept trying to hit on me. I kept saying no and tried to ignore him but he wouldn't listen. A bit later in the night, I got separated from my friends and was by the emergency exit and he really and I mean REALLY turned it on. He was all over me and I kept trying to push him away...when he grabbed my arm and tried to drag me out the door I clocked him one. Knocked him out cold. My dad was so proud, hehe - even the cops were impressed!
> snip
> d.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

breeze said:


> People will choose to interpret what they read in a way that supports their own already formed opinions.


I too do not see misandry here. What I do see are some posters twisting what another poster is saying and then trying to drive them off the site. You know, nothing new.

If you (rhetorical you) don't like what someone has to say, try not responding to them.




breeze said:


> I don't see someone who wants different laws or punishments for a person based on their sex, but someone who sees limited resources being available to tackle a problem and a different level of need.


Yep


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

On the original topic of domestic violence. 

I believe it is unacceptable to ever attempt to cause your partner physical harm. I would never do, or accept an from of grabbing, slapping, punching etc (obvious caveats about consensual BDSM play). 

If my partner hit me, my actions would depend on the attack:

If it did actual harm, or I had to use force to defend myself, I would report it to the police first time. Then I would leave / divorce, all further contact to be through an attorney.

If there was no harm and it was in sudden rage, and if it was my wife, I would make it clear that there was just this one chance ever. Any future hitting, no matter what the motivation, would be cause for divorce. 


That said, DV is often a very fuzzy thing, and many people are in much more complex situations than I am, and do not have the option of simply leaving.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

frusdil said:


> I'm all for the non-violent approach, wherever possible, but sometimes in the moment, there is no other alternative. About 20 years ago, I was out with friends and this guy kept trying to hit on me. I kept saying no and tried to ignore him but he wouldn't listen. A bit later in the night, I got separated from my friends and was by the emergency exit and he really and I mean REALLY turned it on. He was all over me and I kept trying to push him away...when he grabbed my arm and tried to drag me out the door I clocked him one. Knocked him out cold. My dad was so proud, hehe - even the cops were impressed!
> 
> In that moment, I had no choice - there was no way in he!l I was going out that door with him...no way. I'll never forget how I felt in that moment - blind terror.
> 
> Domestic Violence is a scourge in all societies, and the perpetrators, regardless of gender, should be punished severely. My husband's ex wife used to yell and scream at him a lot, and one day she went to far and jumped on him, knocking him to the ground, and tried to strangle him - while their 4 year old daughter stood at the top of the stairs watching  He wrestled her off and walked outside, grabbed an esky and to dispense his rage bashed it against a tree in the front yard. Did he charge her? Nope. Didn't even call the cops. I couldn't believe it - I told him he should have called the police, she should've been hauled off to jail and been charged with domestic violence. You'd better believe she'd have done that to him if the situation were reversed.


Exactly big difference between that and grabbing someones wrist when they're throwing a tantrum and stomping off out the door (with the family car and family credit cards) to do gods' only know what anger filled stupidity.

That's why the law takes into account "mens rea" aka mental reasoning. 

eg I want them to acknowledge my pain, is different from, they were seriously out of control. and again different from dragging someone to lockup or detainment for person control reasons.

In my case I had to drag my ex-gf from verbal abusing our 5yr old daughter. I'd fallen asleep after a long shift to her yelling at our daughter for some mistake - and woke up 3 hours later to her still yelling her head off for the same reason. I went down and tried to verbally get her to stop or even just distract or redirect her attention but she'd just completely switched out. I ended up dragging her away bodily, and threatening her that if she didn't stop abusing our daughter I would turn her into the cops ... this was while she was trying to fight and injure me the whole time. But at least it served to distract her.

Another time with my ex-wife....she got punched in the thigh once for thinking it would be funny to hit me on the head with the bottom of a bottle (she was on a wide stool getting something out of a high cupboard - and no I hadn't tried to feel her up).

What many people don't realise that the big problem with female vs male violence, it's not so much the strength difference but the fact that many men are incapable or unwilling to resist let alone fight back, some even see it as their due for being men.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> But again someone has switched the railway/railroad points and the bewildered passengers and crew notice with dismay that the train will be passing through Crazy Town, Loonyville and Pointless Cove.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




One option is to create a social group and discuss topics - by invite only. (Not that i am inviting myself. )


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

breeze said:


> Yeah, they should, but they come from a society where men are the aggressors a majority of the time. They've probably seen the very ugly side of it in person through their job. They are still human at the end of the day and we all see the world through a filter of our experiences.
> 
> I don't agree with the fact that men have denounced DV, in reality. It's more ignored than anything, until very recently.




You post has some truth but is weakened when you speak in absolutes. You take some men to mean most men or all men. What kind of denouncement do you require? I dont march with banners or uselessly post on FB denouncing it but i support the cause with my time and money. 

Yes, my comment about football was dual edged. I don't believe the NFL commitment either.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> You post has some truth but is weakened when you speak in absolutes. You take some men to mean most men or all men. *What kind of denouncement do you require? * I dont march with banners or uselessly post on FB denouncing it but i support the cause with my time and money.
> 
> Yes, my comment about football was dual edged. I don't believe the NFL commitment either.


At a minimum you need to use one of the fancy Facebook filters on your profile pic, maybe do some snapchats, some instagram posts, and polish off your Myspace account. If it is not made public and on social media, you obviously do not care for the cause...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> If not for violence everyone in Europe would be speaking German, before that French.




I agree and understand your point. But "violence" is a broad term. I would not consider defending freedom and liberating people from camps to be "violence". That term is now normally used to denote a negative action. 

Freeing Europe was not the result of typical or historic male aggression although some posters here would think that.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

breeze said:


> We come from a history of extreme violence. Stealing a person's money was a serious crime but beating them nearly to death while doing so was not.


Admittedly your culture is different to mine.

Here "money" is considered property and not that import - report a theft to the cops and the only thing you'll see is a receipt written out for your report. Courts only talk in money terms because money can be restituted and measured, others things can't be fixed or quantified so simply for the purpose of official justice.

But assault... especially against women or police, that makes cops act and the lawyers swarm like bees. Poor people can't pay most fines but the State happily pays for criminal cases. Only problem is getting the proof (often requires recordings). Unlike drugs there is seldom hard evidence or a clear chain of events, nor any cash at the end of the rainbow. But violence crimes totally top mere property crimes for police involvement!


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

That's exactly it; meaningless and empty words.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

After reading through all the posts in this thread, my eyes have certainly been opened. If I become aware of a man being abused by his SO, whether male or female, I will DEFINITELY encourage him to report it. That is the only way, I think, that some people *may* change their point of view. Or maybe not. I do, however, hope the prevailing theme changes before my children are in relationships. I am encouraged that some changes are being made on that front, though most of what I have found has been in other countries, not the US.

I definitely hope that, should my boys ever be victims of domestic violence, they are not told "sorry, but statistics show women are more likely to be victims, so we are focusing on them, not on men". In the meantime, I will definitely be educating my two sons and one daughter about this subject, and to not be afraid to ask for help, regardless of the prevailing opinion of some. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Admittedly your culture is different to mine.
> 
> Here "money" is considered property and not that import - report a theft to the cops and the only thing you'll see is a receipt written out for your report. Courts only talk in money terms because money can be restituted and measured, others things can't be fixed or quantified so simply for the purpose of official justice.
> 
> But assault... especially against women or police, that makes cops act and the lawyers swarm like bees. Poor people can't pay most fines but the State happily pays for criminal cases. Only problem is getting the proof (often requires recordings). Unlike drugs there is seldom hard evidence or a clear chain of events, nor any cash at the end of the rainbow. But violence crimes totally top mere property crimes for police involvement!


Even today, cops, the courts and lawyers do not always swarm like bees when a women is assaulted.

I'll give you an example of something that happened not too long ago.

After my step daughter graduted from high school she moved into an apartment with a female friend of hers. One evening her friend invited her boyfriend over who was an older guy, about 30. The guy brought over alcohol. So the three of them were talking and drinking.

My step daughter went to the kitchen to get someing, the guy followed her and decked her. She fell on the floor. He got on top of her and started beating her. She passed out.

This beating went on for hours. every time she started to come to, he beat her again. (She might have been drugged because she said she had trouble moving and was in a very deep fog).

Finally after several hours she was able to crawl to the bedroom and locked herself in. (the guy was sitting near the door so she did not try to get out). She called 911 from the bedroom. 

The cops came. The roommate and her boyfriend answered the door. They said that it was the girlfriend who called and everything was ok. the cops left.

Later my step daughter came to again and got out of the apartment. She called 911. The cops came again. She told them what happened. They told her that there was nothing they could do.

She was so freaked out it was a few days before she told me. I took her to the emergency room. She had a concussion, buises all over. I asked the docs to call the police. They said that since there was no rape, we should just go to the police station. AT the police station they took her statement and did NOTHING. They did consider it DV and not assault since it was doen in her home by a person she knew.

I looked up the court and police records on this guy. He has over 10 domestic violence charges against him. He's never been charged, not for one of them.

Come to find out his father is the sheriff in the town where he lives.

So yea, sometimes the cops do everything. It has certainly gotten better than it was in the 1970's and 1980's. At least they do something most of the time. But there is more to be done. And I mean more no matter who the victim is...male or female.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

DV against men can be surprisingly hard to recognize. I had a female friend who had worked with battered women. She was telling me about a couple she knew - a big burly German guy and his tiny wife. How it was sort of funny that when she got mad at hem, the tiny wife would just lash out and hit him, gave him a bloody nose in public once when she saw hi talking to another woman.

When I suggested that she reverse the genders, she got this look of horror as she realized that she had been laughing at a case of DV. Its just so hard to recognize when the man is so much bigger and stronger, but feels psychologically unable to protect himself. 

I still expect its much less common than male on female violence, 





Maricha75 said:


> After reading through all the posts in this thread, my eyes have certainly been opened. If I become aware of a man being abused by his SO, whether male or female, I will DEFINITELY encourage him to report it. That is the only way, I think, that some people *may* change their point of view. Or maybe not. I do, however, hope the prevailing theme changes before my children are in relationships. I am encouraged that some changes are being made on that front, though most of what I have found has been in other countries, not the US.
> 
> I definitely hope that, should my boys ever be victims of domestic violence, they are not told "sorry, but statistics show women are more likely to be victims, so we are focusing on them, not on men". In the meantime, I will definitely be educating my two sons and one daughter about this subject, and to not be afraid to ask for help, regardless of the prevailing opinion of some.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Even today, cops, the courts and lawyers do not always swarm like bees when a women is assaulted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doesn't feel right to "like" this post. 

I'm sorry for what happened to your step daughter. 

I'd like to grab HIM by the neck and throw HIM against a car. 


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ceegee said:


> Doesn't feel right to "like" this post.
> 
> I'm sorry for what happened to your step daughter.
> 
> I'd like to grab HIM by the neck and throw HIM against a car.


Her dad and I contemplated doing something like that. We went to far as to get his address and drive to his house.

What gets me is that her roommate just let it happen. This is a high school friend. And the girl did nothing to stop it and even hid it from the cops. So she's as guilty as the guy. 

I know that this is an anti-violence thread, but sometimes I think that if other men were to beat some sense in to guy like this he'd get it. It does no good for women to tell him not to do it. And clearly he does not think that other men are serious enough against DV to do anything to him. The system does nothing to stop him.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Her dad and I contemplated doing something like that. We went to far as to get his address and drive to his house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is a thread about DV. 

I think we're all anti-DV. 

We're not all completely anti-violence. 

Surely some will disagree - as is their right - sometimes violence is necessary. 

Maybe I'm not as enlightened as others, but there are consequences for bad behavior and people need to know this to be deterred from hurting others. 


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> DV against men can be surprisingly hard to recognize. I had a female friend who had worked with battered women. She was telling me about a couple she knew - a big burly German guy and his tiny wife. How it was sort of funny that when she got mad at hem, the tiny wife would just lash out and hit him, gave him a bloody nose in public once when she saw hi talking to another woman.
> 
> When I suggested that she reverse the genders, she got this look of horror as she realized that she had been laughing at a case of DV. Its just so hard to recognize when the man is so much bigger and stronger, but feels psychologically unable to protect himself.
> 
> I still expect its much less common than male on female violence,


Ugh. That's awful. I'm glad you were able to point it out to her, though. Unfortunately, I understand why she didn't recognize it, at first. Our society has been so conditioned to focus on women being victimized that the men are not noticed... or if they are, they are viewed such as what you described above.

While I agree, statistically, that women victims are likely more common (whether reported or not, from both genders), I hope more will work toward ending domestic violence against all, and not just focus on one group.

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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

For those trying to help a person who is a victim of DV, the most frustrating part of it is that many are just not willing, or emotionally unable, to do what needs to be done. Gender does not matter with this.

The guy who I mentioned whose wife was pulling guns on him with their children involved. They are a family that I was very close to. He was coming over to my house telling me what was going on and completely broken. It was not just pulling guns. She was doing things like no letting him sleep at night. All night long she was yelling at him and hitting him while he tried to sleep. She was not hitting him hard enough to bruise him or hurt him. But enough that does not matter.

They had two small children, the youngest a new born with this all started. I think that PPD was a large part of what drove her abuse.

He talked about leaving her but with two small children he was afraid that no one would believe him. He was afraid that she would then have the kids most of the time. He was afraid for his kids. He did get his mother to come stay with his wife to help her during the day. That way his wife as supervised and there were other adult eyes around. His mother said that the wife would take their 3 year old daughter into a closet and hide there with her... all the while telling the little girl that their father hated them both and was going to hurt them.

Now this guy was an airborne ranger in the Army. He's a black belt in marshal arts. He's a construction supervisor. This is no wimp of a man.

But he had no idea what to do.

I talked to him about getting help from DV organizations; taking her to the doctor for PPD meds. I talked to him about getting evidence, you know hidden video cameras. He said that he would not violate his wife that way. Everything I suggested he do; get help, get evidence and protect his children he had a reason for not doing.

I spent a few nights outside their apartment hoping to hear something so I could call 911. But heard nothing so I gave that up.

I sort of crossed the line and went into their home when there were not there and only his mother was there and took all of guns and hunting type knives out fo the place. I gave them to his sister to hold. I had told to him till I was blue in the face about removing the weapons and he said yes he'd do it, but the months went by. So I did it. This guy was furious at me for doing it. I told him that I was not sorry for doing it because it had been months since I was able to get a night's sleep worrying that she was going to kill them all. AT least now I can sleep. (he blew up at that)

Note that the reason I did not call 911 is that all I had was hearsay about what was going on. They would have just put up a good face to the responders. All this had one on since before the birth of their daughter, at least 3 years.

That was right after the time the wife chased his pre-teen daughter at gunpoint though the parking lot. Thankfully a neighbor saw this and called 911. They were forced into DV couseling. It did help.

It's about 17 years later now. They got active in an evangelical church and rely heavily on things like he's the head of household. I think that her PPD passed a long time ago. They are still married and seem to have a good marriage and are a very tightly bound couple. They own and run a construction company. They home schooled their children who are graduating with honors. (home school is tied into the public school system). Everyone seems happy and well adjusted.

Neither he nor she have any DV or abuse of any kind in the FOO.

It was the most bizzar thing to watch this guy, a strong male, unable to act, going in circles. He was actually refusing help. It was the call to 911 by someone who actually witnessed the wife chasing the pre-teen girl with a gun that got them the help that they needed. Thank goodness that the police and DV organizations here were very proactive. They certainly understood that women can be abusers and violent.

It's a crazy story. Somehow it ended well. But for me and others who knew what was going on, the most frustrating and scary part of him was his unwillingness to help himself and his children while the DV/abuse was going on.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Here is where the misandry comes in. Women lobby for all these dv laws and get them.
They show the statistics....I believe 1600 women i saw in one year died. 

16,000 men died violent deaths last year. No one is lobbying for them. 

Which is the bigger problem?

Violence is violence period. No need for special laws to treat people unequally.

I feel the same way about hate crimes. Should be no such laws. They are garbage thru and thru.

Murder is murder and it doesn't matter what color, what sexual orientation, no lives matter more than anyone elses.

Until then, we are not equals.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ButtPunch said:


> Here is where the misandry comes in. Women lobby for all these dv laws and get them.
> They show the statistics....I believe 1600 women i saw in one year died.
> 
> 16,000 men died violent deaths last year. No one is lobbying for them.
> ...


You are wrong that no one is lobbying for male victims of DV. Organizations like NOW have been putting a lot of effort into lobbying for help, funds, etc for victims of DV to include male victims. 

On the larger issue of the large number of men murdered (non-DV murders) there are people, men and women, working to stem the violence. there are people and organizations working and lobbying to stop the violence.

Violent crime is acutally down over all. Murders are down. The issue is that certain cities are hot beds for murders due to things like drug and criminal cultures by a segment of the population in those cities. Where I live is one of them. The murders are mostly tied to the drug tafficing from our southern border into the USA via Albuquerque.

The thing is that all murders are equally horrific crimes. But all murders are not caused by the same thing. We cannot fight for the preventions of all murders in the same way.

The way to fight things like the murders between drug trafficers, or the murders in places like Detroit, is very different from how we work to stop murders caused by DV.

Plus, if you think there is a social issue that need attention, then do something about it. Get involved.


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## Max.HeadRoom (Jun 28, 2014)

Johnny come lately here
To me the line is fear; if you feel it, it’s abuse.

Fun story
About 13 years ago when I was dating my soon to be wife; she 35 me 36. She was playing in a beer softball league when she got struck n her temple near the eye with the ball. She was all swollen up with two black eyes for about a month. Strangers would see us together and look at her then me; her then me; her then me; on and on it went.

So one day she was in a Walgreens for a long time when I was waiting in the car for her. I went just inside the door so I could see her and I yelled “Hey, Stupid. I’m waiting out here.” and left. The other faces in line were priceless. My gal on the other hand was not too pleased with my humor.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> After reading through all the posts in this thread, my eyes have certainly been opened. If I become aware of a man being abused by his SO, whether male or female, I will DEFINITELY encourage him to report it. That is the only way, I think, that some people *may* change their point of view. Or maybe not. I do, however, hope the prevailing theme changes before my children are in relationships. I am encouraged that some changes are being made on that front, though most of what I have found has been in other countries, not the US.
> 
> I definitely hope that, should my boys ever be victims of domestic violence, they are not told "sorry, but statistics show women are more likely to be victims, so we are focusing on them, not on men". In the meantime, I will definitely be educating my two sons and one daughter about this subject, and to not be afraid to ask for help, regardless of the prevailing opinion of some.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


:iagree:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> For those trying to help a person who is a victim of DV, the most frustrating part of it is that many are just not willing, or emotionally unable, to do what needs to be done. Gender does not matter with this.
> 
> The guy who I mentioned whose wife was pulling guns on him with their children involved. They are a family that I was very close to. He was coming over to my house telling me what was going on and completely broken. It was not just pulling guns. She was doing things like no letting him sleep at night. All night long she was yelling at him and hitting him while he tried to sleep. She was not hitting him hard enough to bruise him or hurt him. But enough that does not matter.
> 
> ...


Rather than PPD, this sounds more like postpartum psychosis, which is a much more dangerous a condition.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Her dad and I contemplated doing something like that. We went to far as to get his address and drive to his house.
> 
> What gets me is that her roommate just let it happen. This is a high school friend. And the girl did nothing to stop it and even hid it from the cops. So she's as guilty as the guy.
> 
> I know that this is an anti-violence thread, but sometimes I think that if other men were to beat some sense in to guy like this he'd get it. It does no good for women to tell him not to do it. And clearly he does not think that other men are serious enough against DV to do anything to him. The system does nothing to stop him.


That's why it feels like empty words when we say that as a society we denounce DV. If our law enforcement doesn't enforce the laws, if our courts don't prosecute, if our society doesn't scream at the injustice of it when it doesn't happen, then it's just empty words.

5 years ago an aboriginal woman in Australia was brutally raped by her partner and his friend and they left her to bleed to death from her internal injuries. They refused to prosecute the men (note that racism also had a part to play in this decision). The family is still fighting this decision.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maybe I had better lay my cards on the table.

_I have been the subject of domestic violence._

My then girlfriend had been very badly beaten (my first LTR) by her husband to the extent that he caused her to be hospitalised and her kidneys had been damaged.

She had a tendency to lash out because she expected to be hit, even though I never ever did anything to make her feel threatened by me.

It wasn't serious (no bruising or marks or anything) but it was the fact that she had done it that made me feel hurt. 

She always apologised but it, DV, leaves the victim thinking: "Well, you say you love me. So, how can you hurt me, if that is so?"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

breeze said:


> That's why it feels like empty words when we say that as a society we denounce DV. If our law enforcement doesn't enforce the laws, if our courts don't prosecute, if our society doesn't scream at the injustice of it when it doesn't happen, then it's just empty words.
> 
> 5 years ago an aboriginal woman in Australia was brutally raped by her partner and his friend and they left her to bleed to death from her internal injuries. They refused to prosecute the men (note that racism also had a part to play in this decision). The family is still fighting this decision.


Sadly I'm not surprised. 

I know women who were beaten, raped, etc and the cops just blew it off... even to the point of defening the perp. Some of them happened in the 70's so I hope things have gotten better now. But then I see things like what happened to my step daughter and I worry.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Lots of things don't makes sense if you treat the behaviors of millions of people as if they were one. Talking about "society" denouncing DV isn't well defined. Some people denounce it. Some don't say anything, but will stop it if they see it. Some ignore it, Some commit it. 

I think all we can do is try to convince people to stop if if they see it, and to educate people about how to recognize it. By "educate" I don't mean "shout at". I really mean educate - sometimes the signs are not visible unless you have an idea of what to look for. 




breeze said:


> That's why it feels like empty words when we say that as a society we denounce DV. If our law enforcement doesn't enforce the laws, if our courts don't prosecute, if our society doesn't scream at the injustice of it when it doesn't happen, then it's just empty words.
> 
> 5 years ago an aboriginal woman in Australia was brutally raped by her partner and his friend and they left her to bleed to death from her internal injuries. They refused to prosecute the men (note that racism also had a part to play in this decision). The family is still fighting this decision.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Maybe I had better lay my cards on the table.
> 
> _I have been the subject of domestic violence._
> 
> ...


Did she ever lean to not react that way?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Did she ever lean to not react that way?


I don't know. But I do hope so.

When she dumped me for her lesbian lover she cut me out of her life. Pity, as I missed her three kids, as well as her.

She tried to get back together a couple of years later but I really couldn't cope with the drama of being with someone who could, literally, cheat on me with anyone, male or female.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

uhtred said:


> Lots of things don't makes sense if you treat the behaviors of millions of people as if they were one. Talking about "society" denouncing DV isn't well defined. Some people denounce it. Some don't say anything, but will stop it if they see it. Some ignore it, Some commit it.
> 
> I think all we can do is try to convince people to stop if if they see it, and to educate people about how to recognize it. By "educate" I don't mean "shout at". I really mean educate - sometimes the signs are not visible unless you have an idea of what to look for.


Here is a some very good news.

A report released last year from the Bureau of Justice Statistics showed that the incidents of nonfatal domestic violence have declined 63 percent since 1994, from 13.5 victimizations per 1,000 people over age 12 in 1994 to 5 victimizations per 1,000 individuals in 2012.

https://www.domesticshelters.org/do...domestic-violence-rates-dropping#.V6-Wn4-cF9A

There used to be laws that allowed a man to "correct" his wife. Meaning that he was allowed to beat her. 

There were states that would not let a woman use DV as the basis for divorce unless she could prove that the DV was often, extreme and threatened her life. As I recall, it was a divorce case in which a woman had been hospitalized more than once with life-threatening injuries and yet not allowed to divorce that started a lot of the fight to get these laws off the books and to fight DV on the societal level.

Shoot, here in NM there used to be a law that stated that a man should beat his wife once a week to keep her humble. 

So... when you look at where we have come in the last century, we've come a long way. We just need to keep fighting the good fight.... against all DV, regardless of gender of the perps and victims.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Yes, and I worry when people say, "but we've denounced DV" as if that's all that needs to be done and now we can sit about and pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. I agree that a huge part of stopping it is through education. I think taking the blinders off is a big start.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Here is a some very good news.
> 
> A report released last year from the Bureau of Justice Statistics showed that the incidents of nonfatal domestic violence have declined 63 percent since 1994, from 13.5 victimizations per 1,000 people over age 12 in 1994 to 5 victimizations per 1,000 individuals in 2012.


You missed the word "reported"

Hopefully though the message IS getting through slowly.
Do need more work on the causes because just bottling up the shadow, _always_ results in worse effects down the line.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Maricha75 said:


> After reading through all the posts in this thread, my eyes have certainly been opened. If I become aware of a man being abused by his SO, whether male or female, I will DEFINITELY encourage him to report it. That is the only way, I think, that some people *may* change their point of view. Or maybe not. I do, however, hope the prevailing theme changes before my children are in relationships. I am encouraged that some changes are being made on that front, though most of what I have found has been in other countries, not the US.


It is often very difficult because while their has been a move to equalise things like income and housework, many of the less nice pieces are still as strong - if not stronger - than ever.
Thus the man is supposed to protect the family unit from threats and _outsiders_. Often such men feel that taking the beating is doing that and involving outsiders is a betrayal of their family, ancestors, and testicles (just passing on the word), and that "not being able to take it/handle it or having another man (or worse woman) stepping in a controlling the situation would totally destroy their protector/Father position in the relationship (thus rendering them a neutered unit whose only real function is as a wallet) - (remember, your culture has no healthy role models or identities for males ... the closest being TV or gangsta music celebrities)


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