# Lessons the last year has taught me



## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

In the last year my marriage of 21 years to my wife has gone from sexless and on the verge of divorce to more in love than we've ever been and having the best sex of our marriage. Along the way there have been highs and lowsy. I've learned for the first time in my life to look to the wisdom of those smarter than myself. I've read probably close to 20 books on marriage, relationships, and a lot of other topics. In the process I've learned more than I could ever have imagined and totally changed myself for the better. Below are a few things I've learned I've learned. (Disclaimer) these are things I've learned from my experiences or from books and used myself. What worked for me, might not work for you. It depends on how far gone your marriage is or what you and your spouse have experienced. 

You can't force a partner to change. If you want lasting change or a true change of heart, someone has to want to change for themselves, not for you. Forced change is temporary change and rarely lasts. And many spouses will demand that their partner change while they make no effort to change their bad habits, or they may take a "I'll change after they do" stand. A better idea is to work on changing yourself, model the changes you would like your partner to make and allow them to see the new you. Most of the time this will cause your partner to come around and start to make changes them selves for the good of the relationship. Granted this is not going to be an overnight thing. If you've been a lazy jerk for 10 years, a few weeks is not going to cut it. You have to be in this for the long haul. 

Stop the manipulation. I hate the many books out there that basically tell you how to manipulate people to get what you want, especially sex. In most cases in a healthy give and take relationship each partner will want to give of themselves to show love to the other, especially with sexual intimacy. Manipulating or tricking them to get love or sex is just wrong in my opinion. What you get is something cheap and devoid of any real love or affection. 

Never use sex to punish or reward. Sexual intimacy is one of the top ways to express love one to another and should never be withheld because she spent too much shopping or he stayed out too late with the boys. Obviously I'm not saying you have to have sex even if your mad at your partner, but don't use sex to punish them for something they did or as a reward after you manipulated them into doing something they didn't want to do. 

Haze me if you like, but your kids are not more important than your marriage. If you try to push your marriage off to the side to make room for your kids ever growing list of activities, I promise you that your love, and probably your marriage, won't survive for long. Trust me, the greatest gift you can give your kids is to model a strong marriage in front of them and also to be openly affectionate with your partner in front of your kids. Your teen kids will probably give you grief for it and tell you to "get a room", but they want to see it even if they don't know it. My daughters boy friend told me he actually can't remember seeing his parents hugging or kissing each other in front of him. Don't sacrifice your marriage so you can give more to your kids, it won't work out in the long run when your marriage doesn't make it. 

Great Sex is the glue that holds your marriage together. Many people, especially women will say I'm wrong on this. Tens months ago, my wife would have been one of them. But for us, rebuilding the intimacy in our relationship has been key to saving our marriage. Want to try to turn up the heat in your marriage with almost no effort? Commit to kissing your spouse for at least five seconds twice a day (not during sex).

Be affectionate when there is no possibility of having sex. This is a son committed mostly by us men. That we only love on our wives or are affectionate when we want sex. I am constantly showing my wife affection with hugs, kisses, flirting with her, etc. and learning to do this had probably made a bigger difference in our relationship than almost anything else. Guys, we all need to do this more. It's the one thing that will make your wife feel safe and loved more than anything else. You did it while dating. Why'd you stop? 

I know i will catch flak for this, but here it goes. Porn hurts relationships. So does anything else that causes you to expend sexual energy outside your relationship with your spouse. And there is plenty if information and research available to back this up. I also used to have a problem with porn, so I speak from experience. Nuff said. 

If there is anything the last ten months had taught me is that a marriage requires a lot of work to remain healthy. I one or both of you don't put in the work, your eventually headed for a divorce, or at the very least a miserable marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lmtosf (Jul 28, 2014)

Great post ray. I am about 3 months into realizing what you have and trying to rebuild my marriage after increasingly ignoring my wife over the last 15 years of our 25 year marriage. No affairs or abuse or any other issues drove us apart, just slowly becoming distant with different interests, building up to my wife telling me a few months ago that she did not really like me anymore, had no affectionate feelings toward me and was not sure if she ever would again given my selfishness (doing my interests even if she does not like them and therefore never participates, taking us away from each other and our 3 kids). It was a wakeup call for me. I had no idea. She bottles things up, we never argue, and I was too blind (selfish) to see the clues. Until that day when it was like a truck hit me. After getting very very sad thinking a lot about what life would be without her, I did research on forums, websites and am trying hard to do the things you are doing (and stay at home more, cut back a lot on hobbies but not entirely). It has been a wakeup call. We seem to be getting better but time with tell. I keep telling myself that 15 years of damage will take more than a few months of change to offset, so in a couple of years I hope we are stronger than ever. After thinking so much about losing her, I realized how great a person she is (perfect mom and a great wife when the other half (me) actually pays attention to her needs) and I truly love her more now than the day we were married. I will work hard to have her feel the same way about me one day.


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks for posting. I shared this post with my girlfriend. Because I had a marriage fail for this reason and my girlfriend and I are tackling some intimacy issues now. With my ex-wife I knew these issues even before I got married but assumed it would get 'better' when you get married. If I learned anything is that marriage just makes things HARDER, not easier. 

I need to figure it out now. I try to remember the key point that the changes that both sides have to make has to come from wanting to change. 

I didn't have kids with my ex-wife but plan to with my girlfriend. I think we'll be good parents and our kid will be super important to us, but I like to remind us both that we need to continue to take care of each other. Both of our parents never showed affection for each other. I want a marriage to be both about devotion (as my nick indicates) and love.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Great post. I'm in this journey myself and I have seen positive changes for the exact reasons you have posted above. 

One thing of note about children. I think children aren't a reason to stay. But I will say children force the couple to really really REALLY think about giving up. There is more on the line with kids. 

WHen you have children, you have to empty your effort tank 100%. When you don't have children, we all could have the temptation to quit after giving 50% or 75% effort in resolving the issues in the relationship.


With kids, it's the bottom of the ninth inning based juiced. 2 Strikes. Game 7. You empty the tank on that last pitch. Without kids, it's a midseason game vs a rival. You should try, but failure is less painful.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"Haze me if you like, but your kids are not more important than your marriage. If you try to push your marriage off to the side to make room for your kids ever growing list of activities, I promise you that your love, and probably your marriage, won't survive for long. Trust me, the greatest gift you can give your kids is to model a strong marriage in front of them and also to be openly affectionate with your partner in front of your kids. Your teen kids will probably give you grief for it and tell you to "get a room", but they want to see it even if they don't know it. My daughters boy friend told me he actually can't remember seeing his parents hugging or kissing each other in front of him. Don't sacrifice your marriage so you can give more to your kids, it won't work out in the long run when your marriage doesn't make it."

this really hit me.

I don't have kids, but I see and read about so many couples that immerse themselves with the kids and families and their intimacy and togetherness suffers. Like a recent poster pointed out, your kids will grow up and move out. Then, long after the empty nest you will still be together.

I'm a newbie, only 15 months into my current marriage. I hope to learn now what you guys are learning so I never get to that point.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> Be affectionate when there is no possibility of having sex. This is a son committed mostly by us men. That we only love on our wives or are affectionate when we want sex. I am constantly showing my wife affection with hugs, kisses, flirting with her, etc. and learning to do this had probably made a bigger difference in our relationship than almost anything else. Guys, we all need to do this more. It's the one thing that will make your wife feel safe and loved more than anything else. You did it while dating. Why'd you stop?


:iagree:

Affection and affectionate behavior is very important to me...that's what makes my relationship feel special and is what leads to the great sex. 

If that desire to be affectionate with each other ever went away, I'd believe that there are very big problems in the relationship. I'd believe that we were missing a very important connection if the affection stopped.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

BostonBruins32 said:


> Great post. I'm in this journey myself and I have seen positive changes for the exact reasons you have posted above.
> 
> One thing of note about children. I think children aren't a reason to stay. But I will say children force the couple to really really REALLY think about giving up. There is more on the line with kids.
> 
> ...


I do agree that there is more on the line with kids in the picture. And it's a proven fact that kids growing up in homes with both parents are better adjusted and healthier. Holding a doomed marriage together just for the kids does them more harm than good. Many couples doing this are at a point where they almost dispise each other and are giving their children a front row seat for the implosion of their parents marriage. The harm to these children later in life will be much greater than if their parents had just spilt up. 

Just my two cents worth
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I agree, Ray. Children who have happy parents benefit greatly but children who have unhappy parents don't. I didn't always believe that and I held my marriage together thirty years ago for my son. But he told me recently that was a mistake and he wished I had gotten out then. That was hard to hear considering I obviously can't get those thirty years back.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I agree, Ray. Children who have happy parents benefit greatly but children who have unhappy parents don't. I didn't always believe that and I held my marriage together thirty years ago for my son. But he told me recently that was a mistake and he wished I had gotten out then. That was hard to hear considering I obviously can't get those thirty years back.


If you don't mind I'm courious how your son did as an adult. I'm assuming he got married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He's in his early 40's and got married at 23. He's divorced now (his ex-wife's idea). Three children. He has custody of his sons and I help him with them. He feels I threw those 30 years away and I agree. I no longer feel staying for the children is what parents should do. 

On a positive note, I'm now good friends with my ex-husband which is certainly not something I thought would happen. And finally I'm at peace. And happy.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Openminded said:


> He's in his early 40's and got married at 23. He's divorced now (his ex-wife's idea). Three children. He has custody of his sons and I help him with them. He feels I threw those 30 years away and I agree. I no longer feel staying for the children is what parents should do.
> 
> On a positive note, I'm now good friends with my ex-husband which is certainly not something I thought would happen. And finally I'm at peace. And happy.


Awsome. I study this sort of thing a lot and often see sons treating their wives the same way they witnessed their fathers treating their mom. 

In my case, this was a decision I never had to make because my kids were 26 and 19 when I made my decision to stay and work things out or to bail. At the time there were just as many good reasons to do either. Super glad I chose to stay now. Never been happier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RichieBanks (Jul 4, 2014)

I hate to be the 'downer' in this thread but I will be honest.

This past year has taught me that it's futile to try to persuade my wife to be sexy again. 

She's content with simple intimacy and I tried to be satisfied with only that but it became too frustrating for me.

So, this past year has finally taught me that I will live in a sexless marriage as long as we both shall live. And the sad part is that at 66 I'm as healthy as can be.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

RichieBanks said:


> I hate to be the 'downer' in this thread but I will be honest.
> 
> This past year has taught me that it's futile to try to persuade my wife to be sexy again.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that your wife has made that choice. Having been there I know the feeling and wouldn't wish it on anyone, nor would I choose to ever live that way again unless it was due to age or physical issues. During our sexless stint, I often had bad anger issues associated with it and emotionally disconnected from the marriage to manage it which made things even worse. Eventually I told her we had to fix the marriage or it was over. Funny thing was, we really did nothing to work on the sexless aspect of our marriage. As we worked to fix the other broken aspects of our marriage, the sex thing seemed to fix its self. We have both said that we will never go back to where we were.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> I'm sorry that your wife has made that choice. Having been there I know the feeling and wouldn't wish it on anyone, nor would I choose to ever live that way again unless it was due to age or physical issues. During our sexless stint, I often had bad anger issues associated with it and emotionally disconnected from the marriage to manage it which made things even worse. Eventually I told her we had to fix the marriage or it was over. Funny thing was, we really did nothing to work on the sexless aspect of our marriage. As we worked to fix the other broken aspects of our marriage, the sex thing seemed to fix its self. We have both said that we will never go back to where we were.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is very true. not all the time, but many times you can back into sexless resolution by fixing other aspects of your marriage.

This is why when men complain about thier wives shutting them out, I really encourage the guys to look in the mirrror and do everything you need to do to improve yourself. Cross all Ts and dot all Is. If shes still doesnt turn a bit, then you can at least look in the mirror and say you did everything you had to.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> You can't force a partner to change. If you want lasting change or a true change of heart, someone has to want to change for themselves, not for you.
> 
> _*It sure helps, though, if the effort is acknowledged and encouraged. Because, as you say, it doesn't happen overnight*._
> 
> ...





> This is very true. not all the time, but many times you can back into sexless resolution by fixing other aspects of your marriage.


 *I certainly agree that the lack of sex in my marriage is a symptom of the other problems. It is also a problem, on it's own, which creates a terrible conundrum*.


Ray (and Boston) those comments aren't meant as an argument. They are just are my take on the things you've learned. And I am glad you wrote what you wrote. Having just returned from a (nother) vacation filled with both fun and incredible tension and frustration (and no sex), I was leaning toward throwing in the towel. I have to find the right words, and maybe lawyers need to be an alternative, but I'll try again. My kids deserve it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> In the last year my marriage of 21 years to my wife has gone from sexless and on the verge of divorce to more in love than we've ever been and having the best sex of our marriage. Along the way there have been highs and lowsy. I've learned for the first time in my life to look to the wisdom of those smarter than myself. I've read probably close to 20 books on marriage, relationships, and a lot of other topics. In the process I've learned more than I could ever have imagined and totally changed myself for the better. Below are a few things I've learned I've learned. (Disclaimer) these are things I've learned from my experiences or from books and used myself. What worked for me, might not work for you. It depends on how far gone your marriage is or what you and your spouse have experienced.
> 
> You can't force a partner to change. If you want lasting change or a true change of heart, someone has to want to change for themselves, not for you. Forced change is temporary change and rarely lasts. And many spouses will demand that their partner change while they make no effort to change their bad habits, or they may take a "I'll change after they do" stand. A better idea is to work on changing yourself, model the changes you would like your partner to make and allow them to see the new you. Most of the time this will cause your partner to come around and start to make changes them selves for the good of the relationship. Granted this is not going to be an overnight thing. If you've been a lazy jerk for 10 years, a few weeks is not going to cut it. You have to be in this for the long haul.
> 
> ...



These two things seem to go hand and hand here and all too often encouraged. Congrats for eliminating this and having a mature adult relationship. I'm glad all the hard work for you has paid off


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

> Haze me if you like, but your kids are not more important than your marriage. If you try to push your marriage off to the side to make room for your kids ever growing list of activities, I promise you that your love, and probably your marriage, won't survive for long. Trust me, the greatest gift you can give your kids is to model a strong marriage in front of them and also to be openly affectionate with your partner in front of your kids. Your teen kids will probably give you grief for it and tell you to "get a room", but they want to see it even if they don't know it. My daughters boy friend told me he actually can't remember seeing his parents hugging or kissing each other in front of him. Don't sacrifice your marriage so you can give more to your kids, it won't work out in the long run when your marriage doesn't make it.


Wow. I was just talking to my husband about this a few months back before we had our son. It is so important to make time together. It has been hard, but I know we both have been trying. Sometimes it is the effort that counts.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ray, the difference was that your partner was willing to work to save your marriage along with you.

My partner is both unable and unwilling. Granted, she has some mental health related reasons, but eventually it's the old cost benefit analysis - fix or replace.

I had to do this with my old car that I absolutely loved. We has a lot of good times together (275k miles) a lot of bad times together (breakdowns) and eventually it got to the point where I would fix one thing and just wait for the next thing to break. When it worked it was an awesome vehicle, but as time went by I realized it's becoming more and more of a liability.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

john117 said:


> Ray, the difference was that your partner was willing to work to save your marriage along with you.
> 
> My partner is both unable and unwilling. Granted, she has some mental health related reasons, but eventually it's the old cost benefit analysis - fix or replace.
> 
> I had to do this with my old car that I absolutely loved. We has a lot of good times together (275k miles) a lot of bad times together (breakdowns) and eventually it got to the point where I would fix one thing and just wait for the next thing to break. When it worked it was an awesome vehicle, but as time went by I realized it's becoming more and more of a liability.


I cant emphasize this enough about both partners being willing to work at it. 

It's funny because if both partners aren't willing to work at it, the working/improving spouse will build resentment and possibly shut down emotionally. John this may be you? You've moved the needle as far as one spouse can move it. With no reciprocation, there will be no resolution to the marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I did, but like my Saab 900 Turbo SPG there is only that much that can be done. 

When I scrapped it a few years ago it needed $6500 in repairs. For a car worth $500-1000 at best. A lot of sentimental value - how many newborns get to go home in such a quirky car? - but eventually common sense prevailed (*)

I tried to be accommodating the last few years and did not push it. Tried to make life comfortable for it, did not ask too much of it. It still leaked, broke down, etc.

The analogies with my marriage are quite funny.

(*) the SPG was replaced by a Mini Cooper S after 19 years... Not exactly the practical vehicle the SPG was but it's a "me" vehicle. I'm not so sure I will will search or even find a partner to match the Mini's quirks


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Great post OP and very nice to hear.

My 30s have basically been looking in the mirror, getting to know myself better and making myself better.

Identifying my own faults, accepting these things AND most importantly DEALING with these things has been important.

Knowing what I know today, I have to say that I have been COMPLETELY ignorant of myself in my teens and 20s. Evaluating myself wasn't even on the radar and at this point, it's something I would recommend EVERYONE to do.

Knowing yourself well and your faults is the key to making changes and becoming a better person.

Problem is, MANY people never EVER reach that point. 

I wish my parents did a better job on this end and taught me more so I didn't have to learn the hard way. But it's something I will make sure my kids know VERY well.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

john177 your absolutely right that my wife joined me in saving our marriage. But initially she was only half in. She was fine working on the marriage, but resisted working on one of the main reasons for our problems. Our failure of our sex life, which was unavoidably tied to her childhood sexual abuse which she was not willing to deal with at the time.

It was several months later that she suddenly decided to start therapy for her abuse. She later said in counseling that the game changer for her was me working on fixing me and not trying to fix her or even suggesting that she should. It was an approach that was recomemded to me by a friend. I resented changing at first because she was doing nothing but enjoying the new me. But in the end it caused her to want to change to, and ten months later when I see other men treating their wives and acting like I used to, it makes me sick to think I used to be that way. 

I was in my mid 40s before I evaluated and myself and made the necessary changes. I wish I had done it much sooner. My wife and I both regret the time we threw away acting selfish and not caring about the others feelings. 

Want your spouse to change? Change yourself first. I tried many times to change my wife, in the end she did it all on her own with no prodding from me. 

I do know that this will not work in all cases. If the pain has gone too far and the scars are too deep. The damage to the marriage and your spouses love for you may be too great to overcome.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The theory here is that the value proposition of changing yourself is worth the effort.

In milder cases I believe it is, but as you point out in harder cases it is not.

People, like products, have an intrinsic brand value. A brand image. With important characteristics that should be preserved.

Think what everyone thinks when they think of, say, Apple. Or BMW. People are like that too. BMW could sell more cars if they priced them lower. Apple would sell more if they made an iPhone running Android (just examples). A change in you (generally you) that would precipitate a change in your wife could be as drastic as buying a $18k Beemer or a KitKat iPhone. Too radical. And in the process would dilute the brand. 

Much of what makes me Me, for example, are quirks. The unruly hair, academician dress attire, Comedy Club attitude, and God awful accent. 

"Fixing" those may get me lucky more often in theory by making me look like the has-been mid 50's guy a lot of my coworkers are. That's not Me tho. As Groucho Marx said, I would not want to be a member of a club that would accept people like me .


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

john117 said:


> The theory here is that the value proposition of changing yourself is worth the effort.
> 
> In milder cases I believe it is, but as you point out in harder cases it is not.
> 
> ...


I think you might of misunderstood the things I fixed in myself. Though I never physically abused my wife, I treated her badly. I would jokingly put her down or tell her that her idea was dumb, put down points of view that I didn't agree with. Get mad about dumb stuff that for the most part, didn't really matter. And although I helped out around the house, I had to be asked and complained at lot. I've done a complete 180 on all of this. The only things I changed outwardly was that I dress much better when I'm with my wife and usually take a shower and change when I get home before I spend time with her. To tell you be truth. I'm happier now and like myself more because of the changes I've made to myself. And Although I'm radically different, I'm basically the same. 

I will tell you one area where This whole process has changed my beliefs. I used to belive I would never get divorced under any circumstance, with the possible exception of a PA. I now belive that while I will make EVERY effort I can to preserve my marriage, I will never live in the misery I once did again. It's just not worth it in the long run. Keeping a bad marriage together hurts everyone involved, including the children that you claim you are holding it together for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you have things that need fixing by all means fix them. What I have seen in TAM the majority of times is not about things that need to be fixed, I'm afraid...


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