# Should finding another relationship be a goal, post-divorce?



## Lila

The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread. 

I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal. 
@attheend02 said "I see nothing wrong with having a goal of a better relationship. I agree that it may be good to have realistic expectations of meeting that goal, though". 

I think having this sort of goal can lead to disappointment and depression if it's not attained. Statistically speaking, the odds are not good. Wouldn't it be better to just hope for the best but prepare for the worst?


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## attheend02

Lila said:


> The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread.
> 
> I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal.
> @attheend02 said "I see nothing wrong with having a goal of a better relationship. I agree that it may be good to have realistic expectations of meeting that goal, though".
> 
> I think having this sort of goal can lead to disappointment and depression if it's not attained. Statistically speaking, the odds are not good. Wouldn't it be better to just hope for the best but prepare for the worst?


I guess I believe that all goals that are worthy of pursuing can lead to negative results.

The funny thing is I don't really consider myself an optimist. But I have found that I never exceed my goals.


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## Livvie

You should leave a relationship that isn't a healthy, happy relationship (and nothing you can do will make it so)...

You should get into a new relationship when you find someone you have a healthy, happy connection with.

The two are not connected.

It's not guaranteed that you will ever find someone to have a healthy, happy connection with.

The fact that a new relationship is not guaranteed should have no bearing on leaving a bad relationship.


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## Not

This was my goal years before I got divorced. I’ve never had a healthy happy relationship and finding that is what I want for my life. If I don’t succeed then I don’t succeed but I’m not going to let fear of failure stop me from trying. I want to taste what that is like.


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## Lila

attheend02 said:


> I guess I believe that all goals that are worthy of pursuing can lead to negative results.
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is I don't really consider myself an optimist. But I have found that I never exceed my goals.


I used to think it's a healthy goal but maybe it's because I have experienced defeat after defeat at this particular goal. Unfortunately, I'm not alone. 

As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting something different.


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## Lila

Not said:


> This was my goal years before I got divorced. I’ve never had a healthy happy relationship and finding that is what I want for my life. If I don’t succeed then I don’t succeed but I’m not going to let fear of failure stop me from trying. I want to taste what that is like.


I think trying is great as long as you've mentally prepared for all outcomes.


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## Married but Happy

IMO, goals are good, because when you have a goal, you probably have a plan to achieve it. A laissez-faire approach is _far less_ likely to succeed. After I separated, my goal was to *date*, with a secondary goal of a relationship _if_ I met someone truly compatible. My plan was to use online dating sites and attend events where I could meet like-minded people with shared interests.

I greatly exceeded my hopes for my primary goal, and that naturally led to achieving my secondary goal in a very reasonable time (also greatly exceeding my hopes for a compatible partner).


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## Not

Lila said:


> I think trying is great as long as you've mentally prepared for all outcomes.


I guess I think a different way. I don’t see it as something that has to happen. It may be something I want but wanting it doesn’t change my everyday life that I’m already living. I already live in a way that doesn’t include a relationship so the worst outcome is already here and I’m ok.


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## Lila

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, goals are good, because when you have a goal, you probably have a plan to achieve it. A laissez-faire approach is _far less_ likely to succeed. After I separated, my goal was to *date*, with a secondary goal of a relationship _if_ I met someone truly compatible. My plan was to use online dating sites and attend events where I could meet like-minded people with shared interests.
> 
> I greatly exceeded my hopes for my primary goal, and that naturally led to achieving my secondary goal in a very reasonable time (also greatly exceeding my hopes for a compatible partner).


It's good to hear different experiences, good and bad. 

Do you think your experiences are the norm or would you consider yourself an outlier?


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## Lila

Not said:


> I guess I think a different way. I don’t see it as something that has to happen. It may be something I want but wanting it doesn’t change my everyday life that I’m already living. I already live in a way that doesn’t include a relationship so the worst outcome is already here and I’m ok.


Great mentality and good way to look at it.


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## ConanHub

Lila said:


> The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread.
> 
> I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal.
> @attheend02 said "I see nothing wrong with having a goal of a better relationship. I agree that it may be good to have realistic expectations of meeting that goal, though".
> 
> I think having this sort of goal can lead to disappointment and depression if it's not attained. Statistically speaking, the odds are not good. Wouldn't it be better to just hope for the best but prepare for the worst?


That falls within my parameters. Hoping for the best and preparing for the worst just seems like pretty common sense wisdom to me.

If something terrible happened and Mrs. C and I got divorced, I don't know that I would be setting another relationship as a goal for myself.

I wasn't looking when we found each other anyway. She wasn't looking either.

Goals sort of fall in a different category for me.

Now, while this is my process, I am by no means perfectly disciplined and I could be prone to putting effort into finding another mate. I haven't been single since age 20 and a lot has changed.


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## SpinyNorman

There is no specific priority one should assign to finding a relationship at any stage in life. It's a very personal choice.


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## sokillme

It's not a guarantee that you will live tomorrow, there is nothing wrong with having goals though.


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## FeministInPink

I think, for a lot of people, when they make finding a new relationship a post- divorce goal, they fail to do the hard work on themselves and to resolve the issues that led to a failed marriage in the first place. And this is more likely to result in another bad marriage and divorce. 

So... no, I don't think it should be a goal. I think the goal instead should be to self-growth and introspection, and building a life that makes you happy and fulfilled. If you want a relationship, that's fine, but your goal should be to have a HEALTHY relationship... not just a(ny) relationship.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Married but Happy

Lila said:


> It's good to hear different experiences, good and bad.
> 
> Do you think your experiences are the norm or would you consider yourself an outlier?


I know plenty of people who have done the same in setting and achieving relationship goals (and some who've failed whether they had goals or not), so in my experience this is the norm, not an outlier.


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## TXTrini

I started dating after I filed with no relationship goals in mind. I just wanted to see what was out there while I was rebuilding me. I received biweekly therapy, and my therapist actually noticed the sharply positive change in my demeanor before I did. I still believe in love, I want a true partner who will love me as completely as I will love him, but one who will talk through issues, not just stonewall me. I can work with a lot, I'm huge on compromise and win-win situations, but a conflict-avoider? No freaking way! 

It's only been a few months, so maybe there's time for me to become jaded, I don't know what's in my future. But the future belongs to those who show up. It stands to reason, if I want love, I have to be open to it and give. One thing that keeps showing up in my life, time and time again is "You get what you give."


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## Lila

FeministInPink said:


> I think, for a lot of people, when they make finding a new relationship a post- divorce goal, they fail to do the hard work on themselves and to resolve the issues that led to a failed marriage in the first place. And this is more likely to result in another bad marriage and divorce.
> 
> So... no, I don't think it should be a goal. I think the goal instead should be to self-growth and introspection, and building a life that makes you happy and fulfilled. If you want a relationship, that's fine, *but your goal should be to have a HEALTHY relationship... not just a(ny) relationship*.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


^^^This x 1000. 

I'll add to the bolded (which IMO is the reason why I think it's so very difficult to find a healthy relationship after 40). We could have done all of the work and still not find a healthy relationship because relationships take two people. Successful relationships take two healthy people. And both of those people have to be attracted to each other. That's the needle in the haystack.


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## MJJEAN

Lila said:


> The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread.
> 
> I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal.


Well, yeah. Goals are things you can achieve solo. A relationship requires 2 participants. 



ConanHub said:


> Goals sort of fall in a different category for me.


Me, too. Would I want/wish for/desire another relationship if I were single? Yes. Would it be a goal? No. Being in a relationship has never been a goal of mine. My idea of goals is more along the lines of getting the house spring cleaned by a certain date or losing 20 lbs by summer.



Lila said:


> ^^^This x 1000.
> We could have done all of the work and still not find a healthy relationship because relationships take two people.


Eh, I disagree. I don't think I've ever even met a "healthy person". I have seen a lot of "unhealthy people" who managed to meet mates and have great relationships because their crazy is compatible, though.


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## FeministInPink

MJJEAN said:


> Eh, I disagree. I don't think I've ever even met a "healthy person". I have seen a lot of "unhealthy people" who managed to meet mates and have great relationships because their crazy is compatible, though.


I know you were responding to @Lila here, but she was referencing my post...

Please note that I said healthy RELATIONSHIP, not healthy person. While I'm working on making myself emotionally healthier, I'm always going to have my issues. But if I keep this in mind and practice self awareness, I can still have a healthy relationship, if I am in a relationship with someone who does the same.


Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Lila

MJJEAN said:


> Eh, I disagree. I don't think I've ever even met a "healthy person". I have seen a lot of "unhealthy people" who managed to meet mates and have great relationships because their crazy is compatible, though.


Good point so I will reword...."two people with compatible crazy who are also attracted to each other. That's the needle in the haystack."


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## MJJEAN

Lila said:


> Good point so I will reword...."two people with compatible crazy who are also attracted to each other. That's the needle in the haystack."


It really is.

If we count "spend an afternoon/evening together, probably have sex, and see how it goes" as dating, I dated over 30 fellows and found a grand total of 3 I could see being compatible with long term. 2 of them were close, but not quite right. The other I married.

Once I knew my first marriage was unsustainable misery and would have to end, I also knew I wanted to be married to someone I actually liked. It was never a goal to date and find a spouse, though. A want, yes. A goal? No. I lived my life, was friendly, social, and open. I just kind of met men, got asked out, and proceeded from there. There was no great hunt for "the one". No hours and hours obsessing over how to meet the perfect man or looking at profiles. Just living my life. I didn't want to miss out on the little things obsessing over the possible appearance...any day now...of Prince Charming.

Never did meet Prince Charming, anyway. DH is my heroin, but charming he ain't. More blunt and socially awkward.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Honestly, life would have been much easier if I had went MGTOW after my divorce. But, I think I discovered some things that I wouldn't have discovered if I had went that path, so I chose a path that I wouldn't consider now.


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## Mr. Nail

About goals, a primer in short form.
A good goal is a SMART goal.
It is:
Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Relevant
Time bound
Some will exclude goals that involve the efforts of other people because then your success is hinged outside yourself.
This topic is largely about social goals that by their nature may fail due to the actions of others.
That does not make them unAttainable.
Happiness is not Specific.
In a healthy relationship is Specific.
Dating is not Measurable.
Dating weekly is Measurable.
Getting pjp's wife to be interested in sex is not Attainable.
pjp finding a partner who is interested in sex is Attainable.
Getting even with ex spouse is not Relevant.
Meeting new people is Relevant.
Some time in the future is not Time bound.
In the next 2 years is a long term goal but still Time bound.

Non SMART goals are never achieved
SMART goals are often achieved, but when not still lead us to better goals.


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## Lila

MJJEAN said:


> It really is.
> 
> If we count "spend an afternoon/evening together, probably have sex, and see how it goes" as dating, I dated over 30 fellows and found a grand total of 3 I could see being compatible with long term. 2 of them were close, but not quite right. The other I married.
> 
> Once I knew my first marriage was unsustainable misery and would have to end, I also knew I wanted to be married to someone I actually liked. It was never a goal to date and find a spouse, though. A want, yes. A goal? No. I lived my life, was friendly, social, and open. I just kind of met men, got asked out, and proceeded from there. There was no great hunt for "the one". No hours and hours obsessing over how to meet the perfect man or looking at profiles. Just living my life. I didn't want to miss out on the little things obsessing over the possible appearance...any day now...of Prince Charming.
> 
> Never did meet Prince Charming, anyway. DH is my heroin, but charming he ain't. More blunt and socially awkward.


In my book, you found your guy relatively quickly. 30 dates? In today's dating environment, that's a low number.


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## Lila

Follow on question based on @Mr. Nail's SMART goals list ...

For those of you that said relationships, post divorce, should be a goal - How would you define it using SMART - 
Specific
Measurable
Attainable
Relevant
Time bound

For those of you that said relationships, post divorce, should NOT be a goal - What made you decide that it should not?


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## attheend02

Lila said:


> Good point so I will reword...."two people with compatible crazy who are also attracted to each other. That's the needle in the haystack."


For some reason, I'm having a very different experience than you. 

I'm not sure if I've found the "One" yet, but I have had 3 very interesting relationships since Separation.

I'm hoping the current one continues long term. We are very compatible so far.

Not really sure of the original question.... 
A long term relationship is a goal of mine. 

I doubt that it should apply to everyone, but I don't think that not having that goal should apply to everyone either.


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## Lila

attheend02 said:


> For some reason, I'm having a very different experience than you.
> 
> I'm not sure if I've found the "One" yet, but I have had 3 very interesting relationships since Separation.
> 
> I'm hoping the current one continues long term. We are very compatible so far.
> 
> Not really sure of the original question....
> A long term relationship is a goal of mine.
> 
> I doubt that it should apply to everyone, but I don't think that not having that goal should apply to everyone either.


I'm truly happy for you, really I am, and I hope that you do find that special someone to meet your goal. 

I can't tell you why some people have better experiences dating than others. Being a logical person, I think it comes down to objective qualities but I know plenty of people who are IMO great catches who can't find a compatible person for a relationship. And it's not for lack of trying. I have been told that luck plays a huge role. Maybe.


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## minimalME

For me, it's not that it shouldn't be a goal - it's simply not a goal.

I won't be participating in online dating anymore, so it would take a man approaching me and making it super clear what his intentions are.

Vague/casual doesn't suit me, and I'm tired of trying to cooperate with that mindset.

A relationship would have to work really well for both of us, and it would take a lot to convince me.

I could possibly be married again if we lived separately. 



Lila said:


> Follow on question based on [MENTION=22830]For those of you that said relationships, post divorce, should NOT be a goal - What made you decide that it should not?


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## Lostinthought61

Lila,

I had a discussion with my wife and she asked me if i divorced her or if she died would i jump into another relationship....i said absolutely not....i would grab my camera and backpack and i would spend several years traveling the world, learning new languages, study cultures and write. Don't get me wrong, it is not go for individual to be alone forever, that we should make bonds with others but i ask you what really defines a relationship. When i am beholden to no one, when i do not have to be somewhere to meet someone thanI have the opportunity to explore myself and to push myself into becoming a better person.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Lila said:


> Follow on question based on @Mr. Nail's SMART goals list ...
> 
> For those of you that said relationships, post divorce, should be a goal - How would you define it using SMART -
> Specific
> Measurable
> Attainable
> Relevant
> Time bound
> 
> For those of you that said relationships, post divorce, should NOT be a goal - What made you decide that it should not?


I measure it by KISS, keep it simple stupid. 'The Juice ain't worth the squeeze'. I'd devote myself to bible study and other hobbys instead. If I need companionship, I'll get a dog.


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## minimalME

I would absolutely love a travel cat! 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I'll get a dog.


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## Diana7

Lila said:


> The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread.
> 
> I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal.
> @attheend02 said "I see nothing wrong with having a goal of a better relationship. I agree that it may be good to have realistic expectations of meeting that goal, though".
> 
> I think having this sort of goal can lead to disappointment and depression if it's not attained. Statistically speaking, the odds are not good. Wouldn't it be better to just hope for the best but prepare for the worst?




When my first marriage of 25 years ended when I was in my early 40's, I knew that I wanted to marry again one day. It was 4 years before I felt in anyway emotionally ready to think of dating again, and 2 more years before I met my now husband. 
Its in most of us to want to be with someone, we are made that way. I do thrive in a marriage situation, and although I am fine with my own company, I still love being married.


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## TXTrini

Diana7 said:


> When my first marriage of 25 years ended when I was in my early 40's, I knew that I wanted to marry again one day. It was 4 years before I felt in anyway emotionally ready to think of dating again, and 2 more years before I met my now husband.
> Its in most of us to want to be with someone, we are made that way. I do thrive in a marriage situation, and although I am fine with my own company, I still love being married.


This is where I am at, although I am seeing someone and it's only been 6 months since everything blew up. I want to love someone, not just be loved, it's driving me. I've missed out on so much and have been feeling it lacking in a truly gut-wrenching manner.


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## SpinyNorman

Thought some more about this, I still feel like it's a decision intelligent people can make differently, but thought of some pitfalls in the decision process.

The first is "Why would I, it will just turn out the same". Of course it could, but OTOH you could choose a different kind of person and/or do things differently.

The second is trying to just swap a new person into the exact role your ex vacated. If you meet a new person, remember he/she is a new person and don't think they will be a seamless transition. If your car gets totalled you can get one just like it, a spouse, nope.


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## Lila

SpinyNorman said:


> Thought some more about this, I still feel like it's a decision intelligent people can make differently, but thought of some pitfalls in the decision process.
> 
> 
> 
> The first is "Why would I, it will just turn out the same". Of course it could, but OTOH you could choose a different kind of person and/or do things differently.
> 
> 
> 
> The second is trying to just swap a new person into the exact role your ex vacated. If you meet a new person, remember he/she is a new person and don't think they will be a seamless transition. If your car gets totalled you can get one just like it, a spouse, nope.


On the first pitfall you mention, what do you mean by "choose a different kind of person and/or do things differently"?


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## Hiner112

The first goal should be a detailed postmortem. Understanding where things went wrong, in the relationship, in your decision making, and what could have been done differently. There are a ton of questions that should be answered before entering into another serious relationship if you don't want to deal with another divorce / breakup.

Did you decide to stay with the wrong person? Can you identify what made them the wrong person as characteristics in someone else (IE can you prevent a repeat of the same mistake)?

Did you treat the right person wrong? What are you doing to prevent that from happening again?

Were your concepts of marriage and relationships wrong? Your partner's? Can you fix / prevent that for the future?

Did they just become the wrong person over time or did you? That is, was it a problem that evolved over time because of changing perspectives and personalities? Could this divergence have been prevented? Should it have?

I think it would be nice to have someone love and appreciate you for who you are. I would like to experience that in this lifetime but I'm not going to be in a hurry. I have looked at what OLD sites look like but I've only had public profiles accidentally. I'll likely go that route when (and if) the time comes since I'm not likely to stumble across someone in my daily life.


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## Elizabeth001

Hiner112 said:


> The first goal should be a detailed postmortem. Understanding where things went wrong, in the relationship, in your decision making, and what could have been done differently. There are a ton of questions that should be answered before entering into another serious relationship if you don't want to deal with another divorce / breakup.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you decide to stay with the wrong person? Can you identify what made them the wrong person as characteristics in someone else (IE can you prevent a repeat of the same mistake)?
> 
> 
> 
> Did you treat the right person wrong? What are you doing to prevent that from happening again?
> 
> 
> 
> Were your concepts of marriage and relationships wrong? Your partner's? Can you fix / prevent that for the future?
> 
> 
> 
> Did they just become the wrong person over time or did you? That is, was it a problem that evolved over time because of changing perspectives and personalities? Could this divergence have been prevented? Should it have?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be nice to have someone love and appreciate you for who you are. I would like to experience that in this lifetime but I'm not going to be in a hurry. I have looked at what OLD sites look like but I've only had public profiles accidentally. I'll likely go that route when (and if) the time comes since I'm not likely to stumble across someone in my daily life.




Excellent post.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SpinyNorman

Lila said:


> On the first pitfall you mention, what do you mean by "choose a different kind of person and/or do things differently"?


I mean choose a different type of spouse than you did the first time, or that you could conduct your marriage differently than you did the first time. 

I understand your spouse may have changed after you picked him, or that your conduct may not have been the problem, my point is that failure isn't inevitable just b/c marriage failed once for you.


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## arbitrator

Lila said:


> The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread.
> 
> I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal.
> @attheend02 said "I see nothing wrong with having a goal of a better relationship. I agree that it may be good to have realistic expectations of meeting that goal, though".
> 
> I think having this sort of goal can lead to disappointment and depression if it's not attained. Statistically speaking, the odds are not good. Wouldn't it be better to just hope for the best but prepare for the worst?


*No!

Let love come find you, and if perchance it does, then try to give it a fighting chance!

But, unfortunately, there are some folks like me who just cannot begin to fathom getting themselves torched in a relationship ever again!*


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## Lila

SpinyNorman said:


> I mean choose a different type of spouse than you did the first time, or that you could conduct your marriage differently than you did the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand your spouse may have changed after you picked him, or that your conduct may not have been the problem, *my point is that failure isn't inevitable just b/c marriage failed once for you*.


I agree that failure is not inevitable just because a previous marriage failed but I do think people need to expect there will be failures. And that it's very possible there won't be many opportunities to even attempt to fail/succeed.


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## SpinyNorman

Lila said:


> I agree that failure is not inevitable just because a previous marriage failed but I do think people need to expect there will be failures.


 Yes. Hopefully someone who's just experienced a failed marriage is thinking about the possibility.


> And that it's very possible there won't be many opportunities to even attempt to fail/succeed.


 I think this depends on the individual. Divorcees remarrying isn't unusual.


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## 2&out

Hey Lila. I noticed your Einstein quote. 

People who are crazy enough to think they can change their lives, are the ones that do.

The most certain way to succeed is always to try again from what you learned.

Whether you think you can, or think you can't, your right.


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## Lila

2&out said:


> Hey Lila. I noticed your Einstein quote.
> 
> 
> 
> People who are crazy enough to think they can change their lives, are the ones that do.
> 
> 
> 
> The most certain way to succeed is always to try again from what you learned.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether you think you can, or think you can't, your right.


I have seen some people succeed in finding relationships and I've seen even more fail. I also consider myself one of the failures and to be honest, it's taken a huge toll on me to keep "trying again". I thought it was me, that there was something wrong with me, that I wasnt trying hard enough, but that isn't the case at all. 

Statistically speaking, the majority of people over 40 do not succeed at finding another relationship after divorce. The majority of those feel like damaged goods because they've been told "success is normal" which is not true. Some people do find relationships after divorce. The rest of us don't. This is why I encourage people not to make finding a relationship a goal after divorce.


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## TheDudeLebowski

My theory is some people are self sabotaging their dating lives. Burned, still hurting, still not fully over what happened, major insecurities thwart their every move. Sort of a twisted coping mechanism similar to abandonment issues. 

These people have extraordinarily high standards and ungodly long lists of "must haves" in a partner. The ultimate goal is to convince themselves of their insecurities, not really find love.

Hurting yourself is an addiction very few people talk about. Im not talking about physical cutting, but cutting your self worth down to shreds. It can be very habit forming. 

We probably should have a sub forum dedicated to personal insecurities. This is a relationship forum after all. Insecurities will kill a wonderful relationship real fast. Some will keep a good one from ever forming. By design in some cases I believe.


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## Lila

TheDudeLebowski said:


> My theory is some people are self sabotaging their dating lives. Burned, still hurting, still not fully over what happened, major insecurities thwart their every move. Sort of a twisted coping mechanism similar to abandonment issues.
> 
> These people have extraordinarily high standards and ungodly long lists of "must haves" in a partner. The ultimate goal is to convince themselves of their insecurities, not really find love.
> 
> Hurting yourself is an addiction very few people talk about. Im not talking about physical cutting, but cutting your self worth down to shreds. It can be very habit forming.
> 
> We probably should have a sub forum dedicated to personal insecurities. This is a relationship forum after all. Insecurities will kill a wonderful relationship real fast. Some will keep a good one from ever forming. By design in some cases I believe.


I agree that some of the people who don't have success in finding relationships post divorce suffer from the issues you mentioned above but I disagree that they have extraordinarily high standards. In my experience, it's the opposite. The people with the worst self esteem tend to have really low standards because they don't feel they can do better and that makes it even worse.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Lila said:


> I agree that some of the people who don't have success in finding relationships post divorce suffer from the issues you mentioned above but I disagree that they have extraordinarily high standards. In my experience, it's the opposite. The people with the worst self esteem tend to have really low standards because they don't feel they can do better and that makes it even worse.


It can go that way too which is different form of self abuse. Thinking so little of themselves, they accept the worst kinds of people believing that is all they are worth. 

I see it happen the other way and honestly, this is just a theory, but I don't think they notice they are doing it. Similarly to a person with abandonment issues. Some push others away or will never get too close. Will hurt the other person or self sabotage in order to end whatever relationship. If they end it first, they can't be hurt by the other person. They are proving to themselves they aren't worthy of love. 

Similarly, there's people who are simply too scared. They want to date. They want to try. They want to attempt to find love. They do so, and jump out there. Really trying. However, the ghosts of relationships past start haunting them. Next thing is to find the reason this new adventure wont work. So it becomes almost a focus. Why will this fail? Its a mindset ruled by insecurity and fear. Yes, it will be next to impossible to find someone this way. I believe there's many singles on this forum and in general who do this.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Here's the basis of my theory. We are more connected now than ever before. We have more options than ever before. Anyone can connect with anyone else from all over the planet. We aren't searching our local church or bingo parlor for a date or whatever you kids do out there. You have it all, literally in the palm of your hands. Access to every single person seemingly. 

Yet, "the dating scene sucks" is the fun thing to say. 

My belief is insecurities are at an all time high due to social media. So the funny thing is, the very tools people use to connect are the ones ruining their abilities to connect. With these hyper-insecurities now in place and only getting worse (suicide data backs this) the ability to ever find a healthy relationship becomes nil. 

The reality is people are fake online. I mean, this is an anonymous forum and there's loads of hot air blown about here. Lots of stories i don't believe. Lots of posturing. Lots of sillyness from general insecurities. 

People are ****ed up. That's just the facts. So these super long lists I see from singles here seem no different than the person you describe. One person just accepts whatever horrible behavior because they believe that's all they are worth. The other is proving to themselves that the horrible untruths they say to themselves are in fact true. 

Sometimes people show these insecurities here. Sometimes. I just wonder what they are doing to work on them? Then I wonder why they believe they will have success in dating carrying that bag of insecurities wherever they go. The ghosts of relationships past haunting them endlessly as they try and fail over and over to get into a new relationship. 

Insanity indeed.


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## Lila

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I see it happen the other way and honestly, this is just a theory, but I don't think they notice they are doing it. Similarly to a person with abandonment issues. Some push others away or will never get too close. Will hurt the other person or self sabotage in order to end whatever relationship. If they end it first, they can't be hurt by the other person. They are proving to themselves they aren't worthy of love.


I have heard it referred to as different attachment styles. @FeministInPink was the one that turned me on to reading about the different styles. 



> Similarly, there's people who are simply too scared. They want to date. They want to try. They want to attempt to find love. They do so, and jump out there. Really trying.


I think you're describing fearful avoidant people. I fall under this category.



> However, the ghosts of relationships past start haunting them. Next thing is to find the reason this new adventure wont work. So it becomes almost a focus. Why will this fail? Its a mindset ruled by insecurity and fear. Yes, it will be next to impossible to find someone this way. I believe there's many singles on this forum and in general who do this.


I agree and disagree. There were reasons why previous relationships failed. It's important to understand those reasons and avoid making the same mistakes again. That's called learning. There's a thin line between understanding history so it doesn't repeat itself and applying a broad brush to everything.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Lila said:


> There's a thin line between understanding history so it doesn't repeat itself and applying a broad brush to everything.


I wonder if the understanding of history includes an accurate and honest look at self? Beyond that, does it transfer into work on self? 

I can list you out all my issues. Thats nice. I have an understanding of where my marriage went wrong. I can list her issues too and how they contributed. 

Which can i control? Well, I am in control of the type of person I want to be with. Do you believe that should be my focus? Cause I don't. In the end, it doesn't matter if I find the most perfect amazing woman ever, I'll still feel like ish about myself. How will that help me?

Look, you are different here cause you have been honest about your insecurities. You have voiced the things you say to and about yourself. Things that simply aren't true. If you find Mr right, how does that change how you feel about yourself? You know it wont girl. You know it wont. So no matter how many times you get back out there, its going to be the same end. 

Do you think that perhaps your desire to hate yourself is greater than your desire to find love? 

Hurting one's self is an addiction very few people talk about...


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## Lila

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I wonder if the understanding of history includes an accurate and honest look at self? Beyond that, does it transfer into work on self?
> 
> I can list you out all my issues. Thats nice. I have an understanding of where my marriage went wrong. I can list her issues too and how they contributed.
> 
> Which can i control? Well, I am in control of the type of person I want to be with. Do you believe that should be my focus? Cause I don't. In the end, it doesn't matter if I find the most perfect amazing woman ever, I'll still feel like ish about myself. How will that help me?
> 
> Look, you are different here cause you have been honest about your insecurities. You have voiced the things you say to and about yourself. Things that simply aren't true. If you find Mr right, how does that change how you feel about yourself? You know it wont girl. You know it wont. So no matter how many times you get back out there, its going to be the same end.
> 
> Do you think that perhaps your desire to hate yourself is greater than your desire to find love?
> 
> Hurting one's self is an addiction very few people talk about...



What if you didn't feel like ish about yourself. Do you think you'd still want to keep putting yourself out there just to experience failure? At what point do you shift the focus from it's all your fault to maybe considering that it is what it is?

All of the self-improvement in the world does not take away the fact that relationships take two people. There are amazing, wonderful, well rounded people out there in the world who have hard time finding someone just as amazing, wonderful, and well rounded with whom to have a relationship. As @MJJEAN alluded to it on this thread. We don't have to be "healthy people" to manage to meet mates and have great relationships. It's a matter for finding compatible crazy and that is not easy. And in some cases, impossible.

I know that I have my insecurities but self-hatred is not one of them. I actually love much about myself but I am pragmatic. I see the reality all around me and my perception is not wrong. They are based on my experiences. I can be the most secure person in the world, and I would still tell you the same thing.


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## FeministInPink

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I wonder if the understanding of history includes an accurate and honest look at self? Beyond that, does it transfer into work on self?
> 
> 
> 
> I can list you out all my issues. Thats nice. I have an understanding of where my marriage went wrong. I can list her issues too and how they contributed.
> 
> 
> 
> Which can i control? Well, I am in control of the type of person I want to be with. Do you believe that should be my focus? Cause I don't. In the end, it doesn't matter if I find the most perfect amazing woman ever, I'll still feel like ish about myself. How will that help me?
> 
> 
> 
> Look, you are different here cause you have been honest about your insecurities. You have voiced the things you say to and about yourself. Things that simply aren't true. If you find Mr right, how does that change how you feel about yourself? You know it wont girl. You know it wont. So no matter how many times you get back out there, its going to be the same end.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that perhaps your desire to hate yourself is greater than your desire to find love?
> 
> 
> 
> Hurting one's self is an addiction very few people talk about...


When speaking of control, it's more important that you gain control over your own actions and reactions. If you don't do that, you'll never manage to attract (or keep) the type of person you want... and you may find that you are constantly attracted to the wrong type of person.

A full awareness of your own issues in and of itself won't fix the problems you have with relationships, but it IS a necessary component and the first step towards fixing your dysfunctional relationship tendencies. It's also the first step in changing the cycle of self-hurt that you're talking about. 

I don't think the cycle of self-hurt is so much an addiction as it is a conditioned and normalized behavior based on past experiences. I used to choose men that treated me like crap, because I was conditioned to believe that all I deserved was crap, because my mother also treated me poorly. She taught me--trained me--to believe that I wasn't allowed to expect more from the people in my life, that I didn't deserve any better, because she didn't want to deal with the emotional needs of her own child. I didn't WANT to be treated poorly, and I certainly didn't enjoy it, but for a long time, I thought that was what love meant... being self-sacrificing and being miserable because you loved someone else. I needed someone to teach me differently to break that cycle and to change how I saw myself, and see that this type of "love" is neither normal nor healthy.

Yes, there absolutely are people who are masochist, but that's a very small number of people, and different than what you're talking about.
@Lila mentioned [me and] attachment theory. I definitely recommend that you look into it. There is a lot of info about it online, and there is the definitive book on attachment theory:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1585429139/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_Tx6AEb6YT18JM

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## TheDudeLebowski

Lila said:


> What if you didn't feel like ish about yourself. Do you think you'd still want to keep putting yourself out there just to experience failure? At what point do you shift the focus from it's all your fault to maybe considering that it is what it is?
> 
> All of the self-improvement in the world does not take away the fact that relationships take two people. There are amazing, wonderful, well rounded people out there in the world who have hard time finding someone just as amazing, wonderful, and well rounded with whom to have a relationship. As @MJJEAN alluded to it on this thread. We don't have to be "healthy people" to manage to meet mates and have great relationships. It's a matter for finding compatible crazy and that is not easy. And in some cases, impossible.
> 
> I know that I have my insecurities but self-hatred is not one of them. I actually love much about myself but I am pragmatic. I see the reality all around me and my perception is not wrong. They are based on my experiences. I can be the most secure person in the world, and I would still tell you the same thing.


Ok, this is a good segway. So, compatible crazy... That goes back to extreme high standards I'm talking about. Again, I could be wrong, but I believe these impossible lists of requirements to meet are designed specifically to create failure. Self fulfilling. If you feel this doesn't apply to you, great. Im not saying who this does or doesn't apply to on this site. I believe i have an idea about a few people here, simply based on reasons that were listed as relationship enders. Obviously everone has deal breakers, but if you have wonderful chemistry one day, then the next come on here and say you ended it because something completely insignificant... Doesnt matter how amazing that chemistry could have ever been with that prospect. The relationship was always doomed from the start because some will find any reason to make sure it ends that way. In the singles thread, people were discussing all the way down to they need to live within 10-15 minutes of their house lol. Chemistry was amazing, lived over 20 minutes away. Deal breaker. Lmao. Its unrealistic by design. Its sad. 

Maybe I'm wrong about why I believe they do it.


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## Lila

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Ok, this is a good segway. So, compatible crazy... That goes back to extreme high standards I'm talking about. Again, I could be wrong, but I believe these impossible lists of requirements to meet are designed specifically to create failure. Self fulfilling. If you feel this doesn't apply to you, great. Im not saying who this does or doesn't apply to on this site. I believe i have an idea about a few people here, simply based on reasons that were listed as relationship enders. Obviously everone has deal breakers, but if you have wonderful chemistry one day, then the next come on here and say you ended it because something completely insignificant... Doesnt matter how amazing that chemistry could have ever been with that prospect. The relationship was always doomed from the start because some will find any reason to make sure it ends that way. In the singles thread, people were discussing all the way down to they need to live within 10-15 minutes of their house lol. Chemistry was amazing, lived over 20 minutes away. Deal breaker. Lmao. Its unrealistic by design. Its sad.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong about why I believe they do it.


How do you correlate compatible crazy with high standards? The two are mutually exclusive. 

And I'm not touching deal breakers with a 10 foot pole. We all have our reasons for our deal breakers and I am not one to judge the validity of someone else's dealbreakers.


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## TheDudeLebowski

FeministInPink said:


> When speaking of control, it's more important that you gain control over your own actions and reactions. If you don't do that, you'll never manage to attract (or keep) the type of person you want... and you may find that you are constantly attracted to the wrong type of person.
> 
> A full awareness of your own issues in and of itself won't fix the problems you have with relationships, but it IS a necessary component and the first step towards fixing your dysfunctional relationship tendencies. It's also the first step in changing the cycle of self-hurt that you're talking about.
> 
> I don't think the cycle of self-hurt is so much an addiction as it is a conditioned and normalized behavior based on past experiences. I used to choose men that treated me like crap, because I was conditioned to believe that all I deserved was crap, because my mother also treated me poorly. She taught me--trained me--to believe that I wasn't allowed to expect more from the people in my life, that I didn't deserve any better, because she didn't want to deal with the emotional needs of her own child. I didn't WANT to be treated poorly, and I certainly didn't enjoy it, but for a long time, I thought that was what love meant... being self-sacrificing and being miserable because you loved someone else. I needed someone to teach me differently to break that cycle and to change how I saw myself, and see that this type of "love" is neither normal nor healthy.
> 
> Yes, there absolutely are people who are masochist, but that's a very small number of people, and different than what you're talking about.
> @Lila mentioned [me and] attachment theory. I definitely recommend that you look into it. There is a lot of info about it online, and there is the definitive book on attachment theory:
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/1585429139/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_Tx6AEb6YT18JM
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk



Well, hurting yourself isn't confined to relationships. It could be anything. I always tell myself how stupid I am. That I'm a stupid little kid who just doesn't understand things like normal people. So, I don't need a relationship for this. Nobody needs a relationship to hurt themselves. But within a relationship is as good a place as any to do it. Either way, if that self talk is present, if the self harm is present, it will impact your relationships. These aren't all equal either. Having body insecurities, to the point of self harm, will impact a relationship differently than say my feelings about my intelligence, or rather the lack of. Im sure this stuff works on a scale. If I'm insecure about the money I earn, that wouldn't impact me differently than if I was insecure about my looks, and so forth. Im sure some of these insecurities make it more difficult than others. 

Back to my theory. I believe we are more insecure than ever before as individuals. As you pointed out the other day, people point out in others what they don't like about themselves. Boy some of these dating requirement lists are getting extremely long.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Lila said:


> How do you correlate compatible crazy with high standards? The two are mutually exclusive.
> 
> And I'm not touching deal breakers with a 10 foot pole. We all have our reasons for our deal breakers and I am not one to judge the validity of someone else's dealbreakers.


Because we are all crazy in our own right. Everyone is. Everyone has issues. Everyone is insecure about many things. That's what it is to be human. Its kinda the point with compatible crazy. I agree, its more to do with that. So I don't see how a person with extreme standards will ever find anything ever. I'm not even sure they really want to. That's my theory, maybe deep down they are too scared or whatever to really even want to try. But, you can convince yourself you are trying by going OLD ... But idk. Are you trying really? Take 90 selfies to find one you like and post it up as a pfp. Already disingenuous from the very start lmao. Some of these are filtered and everything else. That's not everyone obviously ... So I'm not saying it is. 

Then we get into the meat and potatoes and the compatibility lists are insane. Those people dont exist, the ones who would check every box. I kinda think that might be the point. Either perfect or nothing. Well, i mean, we all know there's not perfect. So it seems the outcome is already decided. 

You know, ive seen people find someone. Strike gold. Have amazing chemistry. Go on 2-3 amazing dates, then suddenly the compatibility list gets one more item added. They didn't work out because now they have a new incompatibility. Time to add it to the list. Now they need to live within spitting distance for me to consider them. 

You don't see any of that at all? Idk, maybe im way off.


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## Lila

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Because we are all crazy in our own right. Everyone is. Everyone has issues. Everyone is insecure about many things. That's what it is to be human. Its kinda the point with compatible crazy. I agree, its more to do with that. So I don't see how a person with extreme standards will ever find anything ever. I'm not even sure they really want to. That's my theory, maybe deep down they are too scared or whatever to really even want to try. But, you can convince yourself you are trying by going OLD ... But idk. Are you trying really? Take 90 selfies to find one you like and post it up as a pfp. Already disingenuous from the very start lmao. Some of these are filtered and everything else. That's not everyone obviously ... So I'm not saying it is.
> 
> Then we get into the meat and potatoes and the compatibility lists are insane. Those people dont exist, the ones who would check every box. I kinda think that might be the point. Either perfect or nothing. Well, i mean, we all know there's not perfect. So it seems the outcome is already decided.
> 
> You know, ive seen people find someone. Strike gold. Have amazing chemistry. Go on 2-3 amazing dates, then suddenly the compatibility list gets one more item added. They didn't work out because now they have a new incompatibility. Time to add it to the list. Now they need to live within spitting distance for me to consider them.
> 
> You don't see any of that at all? Idk, maybe im way off.


I have to disagree with you on the extreme standards. I think having expectations of a partner is fine as long as the person with the expectation can meet them. I do not ask for more than I can or am willing to give. I'm also not willing to accept less unless the other person can make up for it with qualities which I lack. 

Most women I know are looking for someone to "share" their lives. They don't want more responsibilities, drama, or liabilities and understand that they may not find a compatible partner for a relationship. This may or may not be the same for men.

As far as distance and dating goes, I think this is location dependent. To some people, 25 miles can be a 20 minute drive. Where I live, on most weekdays between the hours of 6 am - 8:00 pm it could be a 90 -120 minute drive. Dates would have to be restricted to Saturday and Sundays ONLY. With my custody schedule, that's every other weekend. I don't care how well I get along with a man. If I can't see him a few times a week, I'm going to lose interest. That's just me. I'm not a long distance relationship type person.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Lila said:


> I have to disagree with you on the extreme standards. I think having expectations of a partner is fine as long as the person with the expectation can meet them. I do not ask for more than I can or am willing to give. I'm also not willing to accept less unless the other person can make up for it with qualities which I lack.
> 
> Most women I know are looking for someone to "share" their lives. They don't want more responsibilities, drama, or liabilities and understand that they may not find a compatible partner for a relationship. This may or may not be the same for men.
> 
> As far as distance and dating goes, I think this is location dependent. To some people, 25 miles can be a 20 minute drive. Where I live, on most weekdays between the hours of 6 am - 8:00 pm it could be a 90 -120 minute drive. Dates would have to be restricted to Saturday and Sundays ONLY. With my custody schedule, that's every other weekend. I don't care how well I get along with a man. If I can't see him a few times a week, I'm going to lose interest. That's just me. I'm not a long distance relationship type person.


Relationships = responsibilities, drama, liabilities. So I am correct. These women do not actually want a relationship.


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## Deejo

My goal post divorce, I think I can best frame as wanting more 'relationship experience', rather than seeking out and looking to forge a singular bond. I dated. I let any relationship be what is was going to be. Some equated to coffee and that was it. Some were one night stands, and some turned into relationships, none of which extended beyond a half year or so. 

I came to terms with the fact that I was perfectly OK remaining single. Frankly, I enjoyed it. Then I met my wife and she ruined everything ...

I had no intention of remarrying. We are coming up on our second anniversary. We both acknowledge how much we love our lives together. We can also acknowledge that if our relationship were to take a drastic change, we'd both be fine on our own.

I'm a big believer in making the 'goal' to be building out your own life as an individual. In other words, make your own life experience rich, and complete. That in turn is likely to make you very attractive to someone else who wants to share in that experience.

It's the concept of inviting someone worthwhile in, rather than wondering if you will be worthwhile to someone else. Don't mean for that to sound preachy, but it is pretty much what I did, and I feel it's working out well.


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## Lila

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Relationships = responsibilities, drama, liabilities. So I am correct. These women do not actually want a relationship.


Okay, let me put it this way, if you feel like you're having to carry more responsibility, put up with more drama, and take on more liability than the person you are dating (or potentially dating), then it's probably not a good idea to get into a relationship with that person. Again, I am talking about relationships post-divorce. The women I describe are not looking for more or less than they are capable and willing to give. I don't think there are many people who would disagree this is a healthy concept.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Lila said:


> Okay, let me put it this way, if you feel like you're having to carry more responsibility, put up with more drama, and take on more liability than the person you are dating (or potentially dating), then it's probably not a good idea to get into a relationship with that person. Again, I am talking about relationships post-divorce. The women I describe are not looking for more or less than they are capable and willing to give. I don't think there are many people who would disagree this is a healthy concept.


Don't disagree. I just believe a lot of single people are capable of giving more, but not willing. Which is fine and they are entitled to live their lives however. I just think your willingness should be matched by your disappointments. Or rather, your feeling of disappointment with failed dating adventures can't be greater than your willingness to put yourself out there and take chances. 

I'm also not convinced this rather sterile and overly pragmatic approach to dating will yield good results. I dont think it lends itself to finding that raw passion, even if all the compatibility boxes are checked.


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## Lila

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Don't disagree. I just believe a lot of single people are capable of giving more, but not willing. Which is fine and they are entitled to live their lives however. I just think your willingness should be matched by your disappointments. Or rather, your feeling of disappointment with failed dating adventures can't be greater than your willingness to put yourself out there and take chances.


I'm not sure what you mean by "single people are capable of giving more but not willing". Why would someone invest more into a relationship if they are not getting equitable in return? Isn't this exactly what most relationship gurus advise against? 

Most people have no fear of putting themselves out there and they love themselves not to accept less than they feel they deserve. 





> I'm also not convinced this rather sterile and overly pragmatic approach to dating will yield good results. I dont think it lends itself to finding that raw passion, even if all the compatibility boxes are checked.


I guess that's why it's important to prioritize what's really important to each of us when looking for a relationship. 

Plenty of people find raw passion but very little compatibility. 

Plenty of people find compatibility with little raw passion. 

Finding someone with whom you're compatible and have raw passion is few and far between. 

Finding someone with whom you're compatible and have raw passion AND who is compatible to you and has raw passion for you = Needle in the Haystack.


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## SunCMars

Lila said:


> The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread.
> 
> I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal.
> @attheend02 said "I see nothing wrong with having a goal of a better relationship. I agree that it may be good to have realistic expectations of meeting that goal, though".
> 
> I think having this sort of goal can lead to disappointment and depression if it's not attained. Statistically speaking, the odds are not good. Wouldn't it be better to just hope for the best but prepare for the worst?


The odds of the goal ‘not’ meeting the desire is greater when one lays down and gives up.
And, when one plays down the odds of success.

You see…

There is such a thing as intermission time, when joy can be had in the ‘interim’ period.

Enjoy life as it comes, not waiting for hope to meet that final reality.

The problem with many, myself included, is this notion of immediate gratification.

The heart wants what the heart wants. 
Rather than waiting for a long term relationship, give yourself some pleasurable appetizers to quench that hungry heart.

Continue to date, continue to look.


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## Lila

SunCMars said:


> The odds of the goal ‘not’ meeting the desire is greater when one lays down and gives up.
> 
> And, when one plays down the odds of success.
> 
> 
> 
> You see…
> 
> 
> 
> There is such a thing as intermission time, when joy can be had in the ‘interim’ period.
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy life as it comes, not waiting for hope to meet that final reality.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with many, myself included, is this notion of immediate gratification.
> 
> 
> 
> The heart wants what the heart wants.
> 
> *Rather than waiting for a long term relationship, give yourself some pleasurable appetizers to quench that hungry heart.
> 
> 
> 
> Continue to date, continue to look*.


How would you avoid getting emotionally involved with someone while casually dating?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Lila said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "single people are capable of giving more but not willing". Why would someone invest more into a relationship if they are not getting equitable in return? Isn't this exactly what most relationship gurus advise against?
> 
> Most people have no fear of putting themselves out there and they love themselves not to accept less than they feel they deserve.


We are starting at the same place, but with different mindsets here. Again, I agree with everything you said. 

My point is the one who is still too hurt, insecure, whatever ... They aren't willing to give more for fear of getting hurt again. They are capable, but locked in their fear and therefore not willing. Does that make more sense? Capable of opening up more, taking more risks, widening the playing field instead of continually narrowing it. They just aren't willing because they are perhaps more scared than hopeful.

Then i wonder if people do this, and don't even realize they are doing it. There's a lot of self sabotage and poor coping mechanisms that people do (myself included) that they don't even realize they are doing it unless someone points it out. 

Idk, I just think it might be a subject worth exploring within yourself. Not you, but the general you. As in some people, particularly ones who've come out of a bad marriage or relationship, like you said... Just to be sure they aren't self sabotaging somehow. 

This is just me ... But I know I have a hard time about finding any reason I can that puts me at fault for everything. So this theory is coming from that angle automatically. That it's something wrong with me or something I'm not doing right. I can always make anything my own fault and default to this often. So understand that side of where this theory is coming from as well. I apologize, I wasn't trying to project on you and I may have a little. Or misjudged how you feel about yourself. Its just, ive seen some things you have written about yourself where you were pretty hard on yourself with the untruths you were saying about yourself. Maybe Im remembering some bad days you had, and applying that to an assumed default feeling you have about you. I apoligize again. Im happy to hear you love yourself as you do. I honestly thought you had more issues in this area than you do and I'm very happy to be wrong on this one.


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## FeministInPink

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well, hurting yourself isn't confined to relationships. It could be anything. I always tell myself how stupid I am. That I'm a stupid little kid who just doesn't understand things like normal people. So, I don't need a relationship for this. Nobody needs a relationship to hurt themselves. But within a relationship is as good a place as any to do it. Either way, if that self talk is present, if the self harm is present, it will impact your relationships. These aren't all equal either. Having body insecurities, to the point of self harm, will impact a relationship differently than say my feelings about my intelligence, or rather the lack of. Im sure this stuff works on a scale. If I'm insecure about the money I earn, that wouldn't impact me differently than if I was insecure about my looks, and so forth. Im sure some of these insecurities make it more difficult than others.
> 
> 
> 
> Back to my theory. I believe we are more insecure than ever before as individuals. As you pointed out the other day, people point out in others what they don't like about themselves. Boy some of these dating requirement lists are getting extremely long.


Of course it isn't confined to relationships. But, given the topic of the thread, I was assuming that we were speaking in the context of relationships.

And I expect that most people who hurt themselves in the way you describe also have a tendency to subconsciously seek out relationships/partners that hurt them in the way I described.

Very few people engage in self immolation while simultaneously maintaining/growing healthy, functional relationships.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## TheDudeLebowski

FeministInPink said:


> Of course it isn't confined to relationships. But, given the topic of the thread, I was assuming that we were speaking in the context of relationships.
> 
> And I expect that most people who hurt themselves in the way you describe also have a tendency to subconsciously seek out relationships/partners that hurt them in the way I described.
> 
> Very few people engage in self immolation while simultaneously maintaining/growing healthy, functional relationships.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


Yes. Within the relationship, they are able to feed their self loathing. I feel like I did that. I can think of another member here who probably does that as well. He knows who he is too and my guess is he would agree with me.


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## SunCMars

Lila said:


> How would you avoid getting emotionally involved with someone while casually dating?



If you are, in some measure, emotionally involved with someone you date, so much the better. That is not the ideal, but is acceptable.

If you are not, and it is just casual sex you settle for, than I see that as the worse situation. 
For me, for many, not all.

Will someone get hurt? Likely.

The key is not to lead another person on, while one enjoys the ride, but to cut off any relationship where you are the one being unfair, maybe deceptive. As in, playing with someones time and feelings, while you make merry, make love, make excuses.

TBH, I do get your viewpoint. 

Dating often is either: 'take your chances' or do a serious calculation on all prospective partners and love matters. 

Love and its human calculators, never meet in the middle. 
Each takes to one side of the bed. 

*The brain is a reasoning mass, the heart is that unreasonable mess.*

As we age, love loses its power....somewhat. :surprise:

Love is wanting total commitment. Of course!


----------



## SunCMars

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Yes. Within the relationship, they are able to feed their self loathing. I feel like I did that. I can think of another member here who probably does that as well. He knows who he is too and my guess is he would agree with me.


Standing outside your body, watching it go through the motions. The mind not being fully engaged, this playing-out saga, this, your fate.

Words that are spoken, are in truth, reflected back to your own questioning mind. A thought emerges, an answer from the same source, then envelops it.

A daze, this haze that you are living. This torture has you down.

Waiting, waiting for some sense of reality to set you right, ah, free.

You, Dude, are under some cruel spell.


THRD-


----------



## Lila

SunCMars said:


> If you are, in some measure, emotionally involved with someone you date, so much the better. That is not the ideal, but is acceptable.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are not, and it is just casual sex you settle for, than I see that as the worse situation.
> 
> For me, for many, not all.
> 
> 
> 
> Will someone get hurt? Likely.
> 
> 
> 
> The key is not to lead another person on, while one enjoys the ride, but to cut off any relationship where you are the one being unfair, maybe deceptive. As in, playing with someones time and feelings, while you make merry, make love, make excuses.


I might have missed your point when you said "Rather than waiting for a long term relationship, give yourself some pleasurable appetizers to quench that hungry heart.

Continue to date, continue to look"

Emotional involvement and quenching hungry heart with pleasurable appetizers do not go hand and hand. 





> TBH, I do get your viewpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> Dating often is either: 'take your chances' or do a serious calculation on all prospective partners and love matters.
> 
> 
> 
> Love and its human calculators, never meet in the middle.
> 
> Each takes to one side of the bed.
> 
> 
> 
> *The brain is a reasoning mass, the heart is that unreasonable mess.*
> 
> 
> 
> As we age, love loses its power....somewhat. :surprise:
> 
> 
> 
> Love is wanting total commitment. Of course!


I think when people say wisdom comes with age, what they mean is we elevate the importance of logical decisions and minimize our feelings. 

We're also living in a time when most people are allowing algorithms to choose our potential mates based on a handful of markers or personality tests. Not a whole lot of feeling involved with that.


----------



## SunCMars

There is this human agency that we label as human chemistry. This is part of who we are, how others see us and react to us.

Aside from personality, it in great part, determines our desirableness.

We see it in play, all the time. A very attractive person finding all the partners he/she desires.

Others cannot muster this innate charisma. 

Can it be taught? I am sure that it can 'partially' be done. The old time 'Charm Schools' for well-to-do ladies, come to mind.

Now and then, we see an average or below average looking person having a partner who is said to be 'very attractive'.

This person has no problem with attracting (said to be) beautiful people. 

How is this possible, short of being rich and famous?
It is that natural magnetism that some are born with. 
That cannot be taught.

We are at the mercy of our natural make-up, our genetics, our placing in life. Of course, we can rise above 'some' of this, but not much.

An average person can have many more dating successes and opportunities if they can learn to be likable. If they can learn to be emphatic and accepting of other's (seemingly flaws).

But then, dating becomes this game, and not a serious endeavor. 

Not all want to be players, few are this way; they ultimately being seen as flippant, errant and selfish.

The thing is...
Most women do not have a problem finding dates, it is finding desirable ones. The older we become, the more this tendency, that the desirable men and women have been taken. To their chagrin, this becomes evident.

Yes, some good ones fall in and out of other relationships, but then we are subject to being present at the right time and place to meet them (and attempt to claim them) before someone else.

*This is where Fate has its hand. A strong hand it is, I posit.* 

Hmm. :|

Yes, it helps to be (said to be) 'good looking'...... and rich.

Having high standards makes the dating pool all the more shallow. 
Which is fine, just frustrating!


Sigh...


The Typist-


----------



## Hiner112

There was a debate between @Lila and @TheDudeLebowski earlier whether insecurity raised or lowered standards and the chances of getting in to or having a long term relationship. In my case it did both. 

The first couple people I ever went out on a date with, any chance of a relationship was basically stillborn. I was looking for any indication that a requested second date wouldn't be accepted, that there was some kind of (any kind of) incompatibility, or that they were going to start treating me with contempt. The first date would have to be perfect for there to be a second and so on.

I did eventually get into a long term relationship. Once I was actually in a relationship I had lower expectations for what it was and what treatment I could expect. Being in a position where I had to constantly "earn" affection, fine. Having to guess why the SO has been mad for the last month or season, fine. Being told that you've been demoted from spouse to passive income, maybe it will get better. We were in a dead relationship for *at least* 5 years before she actually left (in 2018) and quite possibly a decade or more. I mean, when we were picking out our house post-military (in 2008) and I had my job already lined up we didn't look at anything closer than 2.5 hours one-way. When I raised concerns over not knowing how much of the job was WFH, her response was "I don't care". "Maybe if I work hard enough at home and am as positive as I can be she'll start to care more (again?)" was my thought process and *spoiler alert* she didn't.


----------



## Lila

Hiner112 said:


> There was a debate between @Lila and @TheDudeLebowski earlier whether insecurity raised or lowered standards and the chances of getting in to or having a long term relationship. In my case it did both.
> 
> 
> 
> The first couple people I ever went out on a date with, any chance of a relationship was basically stillborn. I was looking for any indication that a requested second date wouldn't be accepted, that there was some kind of (any kind of) incompatibility, or that they were going to start treating me with contempt. The first date would have to be perfect for there to be a second and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> I did eventually get into a long term relationship. Once I was actually in a relationship I had lower expectations for what it was and what treatment I could expect. Being in a position where I had to constantly "earn" affection, fine. Having to guess why the SO has been mad for the last month or season, fine. Being told that you've been demoted from spouse to passive income, maybe it will get better. We were in a dead relationship for *at least* 5 years before she actually left (in 2018) and quite possibly a decade or more. I mean, when we were picking out our house post-military (in 2008) and I had my job already lined up we didn't look at anything closer than 2.5 hours one-way. When I raised concerns over not knowing how much of the job was WFH, her response was "I don't care". "Maybe if I work hard enough at home and am as positive as I can be she'll start to care more (again?)" was my thought process and *spoiler alert* she didn't.


Is there a solution?


----------



## Lila

SunCMars said:


> There is this human agency that we label as human chemistry. This is part of who we are, how others see us and react to us.
> 
> Aside from personality, it in great part, determines our desirableness.
> 
> We see it in play, all the time. A very attractive person finding all the partners he/she desires.
> 
> Others cannot muster this innate charisma.
> 
> Can it be taught? I am sure that it can 'partially' be done. The old time 'Charm Schools' for well-to-do ladies, come to mind.
> 
> Now and then, we see an average or below average looking person having a partner who is said to be 'very attractive'.
> 
> This person has no problem with attracting (said to be) beautiful people.
> 
> How is this possible, short of being rich and famous?
> It is that natural magnetism that some are born with.
> That cannot be taught.
> 
> We are at the mercy of our natural make-up, our genetics, our placing in life. Of course, we can rise above 'some' of this, but not much.
> 
> An average person can have many more dating successes and opportunities if they can learn to be likable. If they can learn to be emphatic and accepting of other's (seemingly flaws).
> 
> But then, dating becomes this game, and not a serious endeavor.
> 
> Not all want to be players, few are this way; they ultimately being seen as flippant, errant and selfish.
> 
> The thing is...
> Most women do not have a problem finding dates, it is finding desirable ones. The older we become, the more this tendency, that the desirable men and women have been taken. To their chagrin, this becomes evident.
> 
> Yes, some good ones fall in and out of other relationships, but then we are subject to being present at the right time and place to meet them (and attempt to claim them) before someone else.
> 
> *This is where Fate has its hand. A strong hand it is, I posit.*
> 
> Hmm. :|
> 
> Yes, it helps to be (said to be) 'good looking'...... and rich.
> 
> Having high standards makes the dating pool all the more shallow.
> Which is fine, just frustrating!
> 
> 
> Sigh...
> 
> 
> The Typist-


Fate is a fickle *****. But I do agree.... finding that complimentary person is probably due to luck more than anything we do or don't do.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Generally speaking I think we are all different. Some prefer to focus on themselves first (which is what I should have done), but I wanted a relationship. I guess it was just hard for me because I couldn't think of a time in my life where I didn't have "someone". Even before marriage. With that said I agree if you aren't ready, you open yourself up to a lot of bad outcomes for yourself, and you could also end up hurting people. When I first started seriously dating I went all in on the wrong person, and the results were disastrous. So after that I decided to be more careful, but in retrospect that also put me at the extreme end of things. I was probably too picky, too fast to disqualify people and assume things weren't going to work out. I was an indecisive mess. 

I guess what I am trying to say is, and this isn't directed at anyone in this thread in particular. Is it us? Meaning perhaps we are the ones that are getting in our own way. At forty plus coming out of long term relationships. Its a good thing that we know exactly what we want. But...maybe its too much of a good thing. Perhaps we're too rigid.


----------



## Hiner112

Lila said:


> Is there a solution?


I'm only relatively certain that I'm asking the right questions right now.

Knowing that there are worse things than being alone will help prevent the drawing out of relationships that shouldn't continue.

How the insecurity manifests itself would probably have different solutions. Ideally, losing the insecurity would be ideal but might not be possible depending on how deep seated it is. Just identifying where it affects you before hand and in the moment can help lessen its negative effects.

I have a bit of a split perspective on pursuing a woman / relationship. I've spent a lot of time on self reflection in the last two years and I don't think rejection will feel like a terrible setback (compared to the divorce and several other things that have happened over the years). I also know from experience that just being in a relationship is not inherently a positive and that depends a lot on the person and nature of the relationship.

I've read several dating profiles and my thought process has been "Would this person bring something positive in to my life and where would she fit in to my life and hobbies? Where would I fit in her life and hobbies?". There have been very few that seemed a possibility and lots that made me wince. I would expect to be selective in initiation. I have demonstrated that I can deal with unpleasantness for extended periods but I don't think certain kinds of it get better very often. Being treated with contempt or being dehumanized aren't things that lead to healthy relationships even if they seem to only come out during conflicts. Those should be "deal breakers" for everyone.


----------



## minimalME

It's taken me most of my life to learn to ask the right questions, and to ask them upfront - especially since now I have a very clear idea of what would work for me and what wouldn't.

I had a guy I dated a couple of years ago text me on February 13th. This was someone I went on three mediocre dates with, and it was quite obvious, even to me, that he had no genuine interest.

He asked if I was still in town. I said no, so he asked if we could text, and I initially said yes.

The first day it was flattering. The second day it was annoying.

On Valentine's Day, he sent a text to honor the day.

But after having the night to think about it, I found the courage to get past my insecurities and my fears, and I was able to be clear and direct with my questions.

After asking why we were speaking again, and getting the expected non-answer, I wished him the best.

Ten years ago, I would've allowed him to waste my time, and I would've gotten caught up in a fantasy. 

I was very proud of myself. 



Hiner112 said:


> I'm only relatively certain that I'm asking the right questions right now.
> 
> Knowing that there are worse things than being alone will help prevent the drawing out of relationships that shouldn't continue..


----------



## SunCMars

Have any of you walked past your favorite restaurant and smelled the varied food scents wafting out of the doors and exhaust fans?

It is such a tease. It is maddening, being subject to these aromas. Especially so, if you are hungry.



When you are unattached and alone, and you see an (attractive to you) person walk by, you smell their cologne, maybe their pheromones.

This also is such a tease, and it is maddening, making you regret being without a mate. Especially so, if you are horny.

A hungry belly can be sated by a pretzel.
A hungry heart can only be satisfied by pretzeling with a lover.


----------



## MJJEAN

Lila said:


> In my book, you found your guy relatively quickly. 30 dates? In today's dating environment, that's a low number.


Not 30 dates, 30 men I dated. This period of my life lasted a bit over 6 years.

I pre-selected. I didn't date online, so I didn't have to sort through who a person appeared to be vs who they are in reality over time as those who date online have to do. I didn't date every man who asked, either, for various reasons from simply not attracted to smells funny to omg obnoxious. The men I did date I dated for different periods of time. Some once, some for weeks or months. 




TheDudeLebowski said:


> Ok, this is a good segway. So, compatible crazy... That goes back to extreme high standards I'm talking about. Again, I could be wrong, but I believe these impossible lists of requirements to meet are designed specifically to create failure. Self fulfilling.
> 
> I believe i have an idea about a few people here, simply based on reasons that were listed as relationship enders.
> 
> Obviously everone has deal breakers, but if you have wonderful chemistry one day, then the next come on here and say you ended it because something completely insignificant...
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong about why I believe they do it.


Well, define insignificant. I was heavily into a guy named J. I could even say I was possibly in love with him. However, he had a disease that most probably would lead to ED and blindness in middle age. I couldn't do it. Sex, actual PIV, is just too important to me. Some people were happy to tell me a working D was not that significant. Yeah, maybe not for them. One person's important is someone else's insignificant.



Lila said:


> How do you correlate compatible crazy with high standards? The two are mutually exclusive.
> 
> And I'm not touching deal breakers with a 10 foot pole. We all have our reasons for our deal breakers and I am not one to judge the validity of someone else's dealbreakers.


Heartily agree.


----------



## SunCMars

minimalME said:


> It's taken me most of my life to learn to ask the right questions, and to ask them upfront - especially since now I have a very clear idea of what would work for me and what wouldn't.
> 
> I had a guy I dated a couple of years ago text me on February 13th. This was someone I went on three mediocre dates with, and it was quite obvious, even to me, that he had no genuine interest.
> 
> He asked if I was still in town. I said no, so he asked if we could text, and I initially said yes.
> 
> The first day it was flattering. The second day it was annoying.
> 
> On Valentine's Day, he sent a text to honor the day.
> 
> But after having the night to think about it, I found the courage to get past my insecurities and my fears, and I was able to be clear and direct with my questions.
> 
> After asking why we were speaking again, and getting the expected non-answer, I wished him the best.
> 
> Ten years ago, I would've allowed him to waste my time, and I would've gotten caught up in a fantasy.
> 
> I was very proud of myself.


I get this!

Though...

Even those whom you find mediocre, find you desirable.

A nice thought, this!

It is good to be wanted. Even if it goes no further than that simple acknowledgement.

Dislike not those whom like of thee.

Put those memories in that drawer containing dried out flowers.


----------



## minimalME

By mediocre, I mean static. The way we interacted was constant, with no momentum. 

And I don't know that I found him desirable, but I did find him attractive. 

I found his texts disappointing and sad. 

Since he was one of the few men who didn't try to immediately bed me, I thought perhaps he was more of a gentleman than the others. But in the end, I felt like I was viewed as a relief from loneliness and/or boredom.

And that's where the questions came in - to suss out intention. 

He didn't want me, he just wanted a void to be filled.



SunCMars said:


> I get this!
> 
> Though...
> 
> Even those whom you find mediocre, find you desirable.
> 
> A nice thought, this!
> 
> It is good to be wanted. Even if it goes no further than that simple acknowledgement.
> 
> Dislike not those whom like of thee.
> 
> Put those memories in that drawer containing dried out flowers.


----------



## SunCMars

minimalME said:


> By mediocre, I mean our relationship was static. The way we interacted was constant, with no momentum.
> 
> And,I don't know that I found him desirable, but I did find him attractive.
> 
> I found his texts disappointing and sad.
> 
> Since he was one of the few men who didn't try to immediately bed me, I thought perhaps he was more of a gentleman than the others. But in the end, I felt like I was viewed as a relief from loneliness and/or bordom.
> 
> And that's where the questions came in - to suss out intention.
> 
> He didn't want me, he just wanted a void to be filled.


An odd choice of words, if I may 'flay' so.

He did not choose to bed you, to not fill that void that all women possess.
Yet, he seemed to wish to have his own filled?

A seemingly odd collection of words. 

Howsoever, we all want our lonely void filled. 

*Those who are not lonely have no need of thou, as such, they fill their own needs.*
You then, become this/their plaything.

Want thee someone to need of thou. Want them to hunger for thou.

A question, if I may..
Did you want him to 'properly' and politely bed you, and he did not?

If in the proper bodily end, did he? 
And was it not enjoyable?

If he did not, I see your point, his point not inflated.
Maybe he felt he could not, for health reasons, hence his single status.

Or, he could not for psychological reasons, those seem rare in healthy bodies.
Or, maybe you sent forth mixed signals, that you are not this easy mark, and him being the 'overly gentleman' suitor, failed miserably.

Know, that men must act as men when the pot is boiling, not when its remains cool. 

The problem is, without touching on the subject, the heat-of-the-reaction is not known.

Touching can be this delicate procedure. Unless, the man in-the-man goes for it.

The worst he could expect is a flat, No! 

All men must face this doubt when in any new relationship.

Methinks this, nah, knows!

I agree, that he has issues, none that you need to touch on, intimately.


The Typist-
Dunno, wasn't there or present.


----------



## minimalME

Why is it an odd choice of words?:scratchhead:

Let me see if I can clarify.

When we went out on our 3 dates, at first, I thought perhaps his restraint was because he was more of a gentleman than others.

But having been married to a passive man and having been in a sexless marriage for 20 years, when a man shows absolutely no affection in his words or his body language, that's a concern. 

It's not that I expected sex. I expected interest.

But there was none. 

After our three dates, he didn't call me again. Which was totally fine. 

So, now, 2 years later, he texts me. Out of the blue. Which is a common thing that men do when they're bored/lonely. It's an ego fix.

Me being sad and disappointed was because, up until that point, I'd thought differently of him. But the texting revealed that he was just as willing to try and use me as all the others, but in a different way. 

Does that make sense?



SunCMars said:


> An odd choice of words, if I may 'flay' so.


----------



## Livvie

I get it. He wanted someone, anyone, but he wasn't into you specifically. 

Not many people want to be just a warm body. I'm glad you decided to not pursue the situation.


----------



## minimalME

Exactly! 



Livvie said:


> I get it. He wanted someone, anyone, but he wasn't into you specifically.
> 
> Not many people want to be just a warm body. I'm glad you decided to not pursue the situation.


----------



## TXTrini

Lila said:


> Fate is a fickle *****. But I do agree.... finding that complimentary person is probably due to luck more than anything we do or don't do.


Yes, it is. I met someone I really like, he's made me reconsider not wanting anything serious. Fine, I'm there. Now my heart is breaking because he's too much of an introvert to give me the affection I need. It's the luck of the draw indeed. I seem to be the type of woman men say they want, then when they get them, take for granted. 

I know exactly why too and am not sure what to change. I don't make demands, I state what I want, how I feel and expect a man to do the same. I don't care for games or subterfuge and it seems people can't handle that level of straightforwardness. What you see is what you get, take it or leave it. Unfortunately, because I don't make demands, I don't have my needs met, I'm honestly not sure how to go from there.

I have no idea how to date, though I'm trying to learn.


----------



## Lila

SunCMars said:


> Have any of you walked past your favorite restaurant and smelled the varied food scents wafting out of the doors and exhaust fans?
> 
> It is such a tease. It is maddening, being subject to these aromas. Especially so, if you are hungry.
> 
> 
> 
> *When you are unattached and alone, and you see an (attractive to you) person walk by, you smell their cologne, maybe their pheromones.*
> 
> This also is such a tease, and it is maddening, making you regret being without a mate. Especially so, if you are horny.
> 
> A hungry belly can be sated by a pretzel.
> A hungry heart can only be satisfied by pretzeling with a lover.


 @SunCMars horniness is easily resolved. 

I regret being without a mate when I see couples walking hand in hand, or laughing together, or showing signs of affection towards each other. 

Seeing much older, long term married couples doing so kills me. It reminds me of everything I could have had but won't.


----------



## SunCMars

minimalME said:


> Why is it an odd choice of words?:scratchhead:
> 
> Let me see if I can clarify.
> 
> When we went out on our 3 dates, at first, I thought perhaps his restraint was because he was more of a gentleman than others.
> 
> But having been married to a passive man and having been in a sexless marriage for 20 years, when a man shows absolutely no affection in his words or his body language, that's a concern.
> 
> It's not that I expected sex. I expected interest.
> 
> But there was none.
> 
> After our three dates, he didn't call me again. Which was totally fine.
> 
> So, now, 2 years later, he texts me. Out of the blue. Which is a common thing that men do when they're bored/lonely. It's an ego fix.
> 
> Me being sad and disappointed was because, up until that point, I'd thought differently of him. But the texting revealed that he was just as willing to try and use me as all the others, but in a different way.
> 
> Does that make sense?


It does, what a putz he is.

On using, using should be mutual, for the good of each.


----------



## SunCMars

I need to ponder a proper response.


----------



## TXTrini

minimalME said:


> It's taken me most of my life to learn to ask the right questions, and to ask them upfront - especially since now I have a very clear idea of what would work for me and what wouldn't.
> 
> I had a guy I dated a couple of years ago text me on February 13th. This was someone I went on three mediocre dates with, and it was quite obvious, even to me, that he had no genuine interest.
> 
> He asked if I was still in town. I said no, so he asked if we could text, and I initially said yes.
> 
> The first day it was flattering. The second day it was annoying.
> 
> On Valentine's Day, he sent a text to honor the day.
> 
> But after having the night to think about it, I found the courage to get past my insecurities and my fears, and I was able to be clear and direct with my questions.
> 
> After asking why we were speaking again, and getting the expected non-answer, I wished him the best.
> 
> Ten years ago, I would've allowed him to waste my time, and I would've gotten caught up in a fantasy.
> 
> I was very proud of myself.


Can you help a fellow seeker out and share those questions? I don't seem to know those yet.


----------



## minimalME

It was pretty simple and short...

_Why are we talking again after two years? We really didn't spend much time together. What is it that you want from me?_

Then he proceeded with his bs pitch, to which I responded...

_I wouldn't be comfortable doing that. Texting isn't how I want to get know someone. I wish you the best, and I'm confident you'll find the right woman to fill the void in your life._

The whole thing was very selfish and disingenuous, but it's taken me a long time to learn what that looks like.



TXTrini said:


> Can you help a fellow seeker out and share those questions? I don't seem to know those yet.


----------



## SunCMars

Those broken men...

Some have obvious cracks, others have these disconnected matters found only after close inspection.

Some never are noted, until that intimate moment, when the flesh does not rise to the occasion.

Broken, is the humbling bailiwick of the owner, yet, at some dating point can become this embarrassed coupling with that shared failing. 

The thing is...

These hard failings have an ultimate fix, sometimes chemical, and, at last....that bionic membering.


----------



## Blondilocks

minimalME said:


> It was pretty simple and short...
> 
> _Why are we talking again after two years? We really didn't spend much time together. What is it that you want from me?_
> 
> Then he proceeded with his bs pitch, to which I responded...
> 
> _I wouldn't be comfortable doing that. Texting isn't how I want to get know someone. I wish you the best, and I'm confident you'll find the right woman to fill the void in your life._
> 
> The whole thing was very selfish and disingenuous, but it's taken me a long time to learn what that looks like.


When people like him do this, they are in between partners so are going back through their little black book and reconsidering the ones who didn't work out. They are bored and desperate. 

My BIL did this when his wife died. He even tried to track down his 1st wife who had cheated on and divorced him thirty years prior.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Lila said:


> I regret being without a mate when I see couples walking hand in hand, or laughing together, or showing signs of affection towards each other.
> 
> Seeing much older, long term married couples doing so kills me. It reminds me of everything I could have had but won't.


If you cannot change your scenery, change your eyes.

When you spend the time working on being a better you, what happens around you matters much less, especially when "around you" is not able appreciate the effort.

I hear your doubts... I lived your doubts as you have, we were both married to someone who took advantage of such doubts and used them as leverage against us. 

What I have learned is that until you quell them inside you, the outside world will not be ready.

This is why it hurts when you witness happiness around you.

Be compassionate for the outside, but be more compassionate for your inside.

Loving kindness is with you...


----------



## SunCMars

Blondilocks said:


> When people like him do this, they are in between partners so are going back through their little black book and reconsidering the ones who didn't work out. They are bored and desperate.
> 
> My BIL did this when his wife died. He even tried to track down his 1st wife who had cheated on and divorced him thirty years prior.



Sometimes those 'old memories' are the sweetest.

Most have a tendency to only remember the good times, less the bad.

When a man goes after an old flame, he wants one more hot crack at, precisely that word.

Also, too, again, it is easier to seek out known and friendly ghosts from the past, than those possibly, being some current ban-she's.

Kudos! 

I do like the black-book reference! 
A relic from the past, used by a relic BIL, at last.


----------



## Lila

Emerging Buddhist said:


> If you cannot change your scenery, change your eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> When you spend the time working on being a better you, what happens around you matters much less, especially when "around you" is not able appreciate the effort.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear your doubts... I lived your doubts as you have, we were both married to someone who took advantage of such doubts and used them as leverage against us.
> 
> 
> 
> *What I have learned is that until you quell them inside you*, the outside world will not be ready.
> 
> 
> 
> This is why it hurts when you witness happiness around you.
> 
> 
> 
> Be compassionate for the outside, but be more compassionate for your inside.
> 
> 
> 
> Loving kindness is with you...


I am learning that the bolded is very difficult to do. I'm trying to find that balance between hopefulness and doubt where I just am. It's not easy.


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## TXTrini

minimalME said:


> It was pretty simple and short...
> 
> _Why are we talking again after two years? We really didn't spend much time together. What is it that you want from me?_
> 
> Then he proceeded with his bs pitch, to which I responded...
> 
> _I wouldn't be comfortable doing that. Texting isn't how I want to get know someone. I wish you the best, and I'm confident you'll find the right woman to fill the void in your life._
> 
> The whole thing was very selfish and disingenuous, but it's taken me a long time to learn what that looks like.


Thank you. He's lucky you even responded to him. Honestly, I wouldn't give anyone in my past the time of day unless it was extenuating circumstances that kept us apart in the first place.


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## Emerging Buddhist

Lila said:


> I am learning that the bolded is very difficult to do. I'm trying to find that balance between hopefulness and doubt where I just am. It's not easy.


Ok, tell me why it is so hard?


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## minimalME

The only time I can do the not responding is when I've made myself clear, and I'm either pressed or ignored.

After my last text that I shared here, he continued. I explained myself a little more, and he kept going, so I stopped texting.

It truly is a last resort, because I see it as being dehumanizing. 



TXTrini said:


> Thank you. He's lucky you even responded to him. Honestly, I wouldn't give anyone in my past the time of day unless it was extenuating circumstances that kept us apart in the first place.


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## Lila

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Ok, tell me why it is so hard?


The doubts and hope are difficult to let go because they are being backed up by my experiences. It's difficult to ignore those experiences. 

I hear people say "don't think about that, just focus on you". As a social creature, I find that almost impossible to do.


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## Emerging Buddhist

You cannot ignore them.... that is why they are lessons.

Our experiences do define us but only to the point of how much control we are willing to give them... they are not the master, we are.

Loving kindness is a powerful tool for replacing the suffering we experience.

We build kindness from thinking kind thoughts, not regretful thoughts.

In your next outing, take 5 full minutes and practice wishing every couple you see enjoying another happy thoughts.

Wish them happiness, health, growth as a couple and joyful togetherness.

Hold them close to your heart as you wish them the warmest of feelings.

Don't let sadness, jealous thoughts, wishful replacement of you for them cloud your moments... be there for them in a way that projects good wishes.

Train your heart well, create a place that prepares you for the positive in your life.

Try this once a day, then once in morning and afternoon, continue it for a week and see if you are not beginning to see things a little different.

It may not come easy, I believe you may find it comes easier every day.

Be the social creature your heart smiles inwardly to, then share that.

You may be surprised by what is attracted if you let go...


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## Lila

Emerging Buddhist said:


> You cannot ignore them.... that is why they are lessons.
> 
> 
> 
> Our experiences do define us but only to the point of how much control we are willing to give them... they are not the master, we are.
> 
> 
> 
> Loving kindness is a powerful tool for replacing the suffering we experience.
> 
> 
> 
> We build kindness from thinking kind thoughts, not regretful thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> In your next outing, take 5 full minutes and practice wishing every couple you see enjoying another happy thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> Wish them happiness, health, growth as a couple and joyful togetherness.
> 
> 
> 
> Hold them close to your heart as you wish them the warmest of feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let sadness, jealous thoughts, wishful replacement of you for them cloud your moments... be there for them in a way that projects good wishes.
> 
> 
> 
> Train your heart well, create a place that prepares you for the positive in your life.
> 
> 
> 
> Try this once a day, then once in morning and afternoon, continue it for a week and see if you are not beginning to see things a little different.
> 
> 
> 
> It may not come easy, I believe you may find it comes easier every day.
> 
> 
> 
> Be the social creature your heart smiles inwardly to, then share that.
> 
> 
> 
> You may be surprised by what is attracted if you let go...


Can you genuinely feel happiness for someone else and still be sad that your life didn't turn out that way? 

The only person I envy is my ex husband. He was able to smoothly transition from one relationship into another, happier one. He hasn't struggled for a second. I have and it pisses me off. When I'm in my lowest lows, I secretly wish horrible things on him and the AP; things to test their "love". 

I genuinely wish happiness to other loving couples. I know how difficult it is to maintain a relationship.I wish them kudos for having done so. But when I see these loving couples, it reminds me of what I'm missing in my own life. The person who is missing a limb may go on living a productive life but their body will always miss having that limb (phantom limb syndrome).


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## Blondilocks

Lila said:


> Can you genuinely feel happiness for someone else and still be sad that your life didn't turn out that way?
> 
> The only person I envy is my ex husband. He was able to smoothly transition from one relationship into another, happier one. He hasn't struggled for a second. I have and it pisses me off. When I'm in my lowest lows, I secretly wish horrible things on him and the AP; things to test their "love".
> 
> I genuinely wish happiness to other loving couples. I know how difficult it is to maintain a relationship.I wish them kudos for having done so. But when I see these loving couples, it reminds me of what I'm missing in my own life. The person who is missing a limb may go on living a productive life but their body will always miss having that limb (phantom limb syndrome).


Lila, please don't envy your ex. He knows what he did and that will always be in the back of his mind. And, in his partner's mind if she has a lick of sense.

I'm thinking you're a Type A personality. Your impatience with finding another partner and subsequent depressing thoughts have been evident since the divorce process started. You might be emitting some vibes that put people off. Or, I'm just full of it.

When you can look at happy couples and truly enjoy the experience without thinking 'what about me?' you'll emit different vibes.

I so want you to find that someone special and I know you will in time.


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## Lila

Blondilocks said:


> Lila, please don't envy your ex. He knows what he did and that will always be in the back of his mind. And, in his partner's mind if she has a lick of sense.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking you're a Type A personality. Your impatience with finding another partner and subsequent depressing thoughts have been evident since the divorce process started. You might be emitting some vibes that put people off. Or, I'm just full of it.
> 
> 
> 
> When you can look at happy couples and truly enjoy the experience without thinking 'what about me?' you'll emit different vibes.
> 
> 
> 
> I so want you to find that someone special and I know you will in time.


I'm not a typical type A but I'm more type A than type B, but I absolutely have no patience. When I want something, I go after it hard and put my all into it for a period of time. If I succeed, great. If I don't, then I usually give up never to give it another consideration. I move on to other things. 

For some unGodly reason, I cannot turn off that desire to succeed with this one thing. It's always in the back of my mind. Sometimes I can quiet it but things I see and experience trigger that want which then triggers the sadness. 

And it's possible I'm emitting vibes that are off putting. It's frustrating.


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## TXTrini

Lila said:


> I'm not a typical type A but I'm more type A than type B, but I absolutely have no patience. When I want something, I go after it hard and put my all into it for a period of time. If I succeed, great. If I don't, then I usually give up never to give it another consideration. I move on to other things.
> 
> For some unGodly reason, I cannot turn off that desire to succeed with this one thing. It's always in the back of my mind. Sometimes I can quiet it but things I see and experience trigger that want which then triggers the sadness.
> 
> And it's possible I'm emitting vibes that are off putting. It's frustrating.


I totally get where you're coming from, darling. I don't wish my ex and his AP bad, because I don't need to, one thing I've always noticed in my life is anyone who's hurt me usually suffers many times over, and I end up hearing about it later on. A good example is my first bf, he never got married (He's 48 now) and to this day, his mother still talks about the "one that got away", despite me being way too young to have been serious about anyone at the time. 

Revenge is mine, sayeth the Lord. Empty your heart of bitterness, and love yourself that much more. You're such a sweet, loving person. You come here to help people you may never meet and speak words of encouragement all the time. You have so much to give, to the right person. 

You, amongst others on this board gave me the strength when I most needed it to act, and the courage to face huge changes and the hope that things could be much better in the future. Take some of your own advice now, and love yourself girl *hugs*, see how amazing you are, and others will too. 

I get the impatience to love, I truly do. I'm only 6 months out and I WANT to love someone. That's freaking nuts *laughs*, but I'm open to life because of all of you.


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## anewday

Not said:


> This was my goal years before I got divorced. I’ve never had a healthy happy relationship and finding that is what I want for my life. If I don’t succeed then I don’t succeed but I’m not going to let fear of failure stop me from trying. I want to taste what that is like.


I also have never had a healthy happy relationship but I won’t give up trying.


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## leo10

Lila said:


> The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread.
> 
> I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal.
> @attheend02 said "I see nothing wrong with having a goal of a better relationship. I agree that it may be good to have realistic expectations of meeting that goal, though".
> 
> I think having this sort of goal can lead to disappointment and depression if it's not attained. Statistically speaking, the odds are not good. Wouldn't it be better to just hope for the best but prepare for the worst?


I think one should give themselves enough time to heal from previous relationship. Maybe find new goals in life to work on and improve yourself. I think after a bad relationship you need to heal emotionally and bring back your self-confidence. Having small and achievable goals can really help in healing emotionally. The wrong thing to do would be to go in an another relationship because you are lonely or you want to get over previous relationship. A good relationship can only be made if both individuals are strong enough and love themselves in their own lives. 

Currently, I am trying to heal myself. Sometimes I do feel anxious about future and get fearful. I even get connected with another person but I backed out because I totally panicked with the prospects of starting a relationship all over again. That's when I knew that I am not completely healed. I need to take baby steps and completely sure if I want to be in another relationship or not.


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## Diana7

Lila said:


> The topic of whether or not a relationship should be a goal post divorce was discussed on another thread.
> 
> I mentioned that it was all well and good to hope for another relationship but that it should not be a goal.
> @attheend02 said "I see nothing wrong with having a goal of a better relationship. I agree that it may be good to have realistic expectations of meeting that goal, though".
> 
> I think having this sort of goal can lead to disappointment and depression if it's not attained. Statistically speaking, the odds are not good. Wouldn't it be better to just hope for the best but prepare for the worst?


When my first marriage ended suddenly after 25 years, I always wanted to marry again but at the same time I was realistic that I may never meet the sort of man I wanted. This was largely because I was only interested in marrying a strong Christian and one who had integrity and had strong moral values. Very few like that around. So yes I suppose it was a goal or at least a hope. It took 6 years before I met my now husband, it was 4 years after my marriage ended before I could even think of dating again. I do think that many jump far too soon into new relationships. 
If I were to ever divorce again, I wouldnt marry again or date again.


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## Dadto2

I've been divorced twice and am in my early 50's. First time ex cheated and I was glad to see her go, although losing my kids 50% of the time sucked. I was single for 6 years...dated, but was afraid of getting burned again. Finally the true love of my life came along, but blending families was just too difficult. That one crushed me and happened recently. So I'm in no hurry to do it again. I need to learn to be happy with myself. My kids are both teenagers, so I want to focus on them and enjoy it before they fly the nest. It would be nice to have someone, but if you spend too much time looking, life will pass you by.


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## ScottL

The same person going into a new relationship will most likely get the same results over time. 
The issue here is that you need to work on yourself. Look at where you fell down in your relationship. Do not even look at what your partner did.
You need to work on those things. Go through all the issues you had and see where you did not act as you should have or you did not show up fully.

Then figuring out what a healthy relationship looks like is critical. Figure out what you want. 

When you do get in a new relationship then it is time to make agreements. Talk about how you are going to handle arguments, how you are going to handle money, how you will deal with any of the situations from your other relationships that did not turn out well. Write down these agreements as guidelines not rules for your new relationship. These are not to be used as weapons against the other but as helpful guidelines when issues come up. When this is done early in a relationship it will be much easier. And then you can tweak the agreements as you go forward. 

The work we do on ourselves is important more than the goal of having a new relationship. If you have a goal of having a new relationship you are setting yourself up for not doing the things than are required to do before you can get into a healthy relationship.


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## southbound

Not said:


> I guess I think a different way. I don’t see it as something that has to happen. It may be something I want but wanting it doesn’t change my everyday life that I’m already living. I already live in a way that doesn’t include a relationship so the worst outcome is already here and I’m ok.


I love this response. Viewing it as a goal makes it seem like it has to happen. Not having a relationship will not make my current life worse, and I’m doing fine.


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## AVR1962

I agree it should not be a goal but I do think, for the most part, people like companionship. That companionship can look very different to different people so it is a matter of what you are looking for and what stage in the process of moving on that you are at. Ultimately for myself I do hope to find that special person I will spend the rest of my life with. In the meantime, I focus on me, my career and enjoy those I meet along the way.


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