# Why is intimacy a fight?



## KAM1959 (Aug 28, 2013)

I have been married for 34 yrs. and throughout these yrs I have been faithful. I know this is rare in our day and age however in the past 6 to 7 yrs. intimacy and sex has become a fight when ever I bring the subject up. This includes any efforts I make to be romantic. In fact, in these past years I do not believe my wife and I have had sex more than 10 to 15 time. Furthermore, when I bring the subject up her response is that I am obsessed. 
Now in the first half of our marriage we had a lot of sex, then when our kids became teenagers this started to fall of, however this was, I believe natural, simple because of the way our lives were at that time. Today, and over the formerly state number of years our sons are grown men married and one with his own kids. To me it's like being young again!
The opposite is true for my wife. In short she has become a "Nun", (none). This is frustrating to me because I only want to be with her, after all I love her. In addition it is my profound opinion that sex is the greatest with the true emotions of love. Yet this has no effect on her.
Now the only thing she seem interested in is her job which is an important one and the Pittsburg Steelers, and anything else outside of these subjects is meaningless. There is one exception of course and that is our sons and grandchildren. Further, she has lost all femininity and is more like a tomboy than ever. 
Moreover, it has gotten to the point that she will find anything to avoid being close to me. She can find all kind of things to do on her days off. For example, she can create all kinds of laundry to be done, even though I have everything done before her days off because I am a writer and subsequently work from home. This therefore allows me a lot of time to handle house work. Especially since I work late nights because it the most quiet time. Now I use laundry as an example because I caught her taking things off hanger and washing them. Her reasoning was that she needed these things and they had been hanging up for a long time so they needed to be cleaned. However, she never wore the items!
In addition, to these things I must state certain things. We are both older and we have both put on weight. She has put on more than I but this does not present any problems for me because I love her. It is true that she is far from that 115 lbs. she was when we first meet and married but I am around 20 lbs. overweight myself. I mention this because I noticed that on the few times we have been intimate she always wears something that covers her upper body. 
Moreover, I have tried many things to get her excited about our intimacy. I have tried the path of rose peddles, the scented candles and low light, candle light dinners. I have even given her sensual messages only to have her roll over kiss me and say I love you then fall asleep. 
Finally, I am at my wits end. I have emotional and physical needs that have not been meet for a very long time and I really have no idea what to do to change this situation. All I know is there must be some kind of change and soon. My first, and primary choice is to find a way to stir her up if possible. So if anyone has an idea please get back with me openly or personally. Next my second choice and least desired, is to have an extramarital affair. Of course I have been outside of this life style for so long I would not even know how to begin! In my youth I was very active when it came having young women in my life, and only after meeting my wife did I become a "1 women man". In either case if anyone has any suggestions I am very open to responses of any kind, ideas or advice on either way. All I know is my life has to change soon or I am going to burst at the seams. In sum, I need an incredible life change in this area.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

This must be just heart breaking for you. To reach this point in your life where your time is mostly your own to find that your wife is unwilling to budge.

First, I can't pass up the snarky bit here...well she's a Steeler's employee so she's used to going with out.... Sorry I'm a Ravens fan so I couldn't resist...

Your should check out this thread, particularly the last two pages where you will find some good debate about assessing the situation and for,ONG a game plan.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/107242-who-here-has-divorced-due-lack-sex.html


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I can relate, OP, except my first marriage had little sex once "I do" was spoken.

Depending on your ages, it may be hormonal. However, even if there are treatments, she'd have to want them, and it sounds like she's content with status quo. For me, this (and other problems - it's seldom simplistic) led me to divorce, and finding a much better partner. Often, there is NO solution. You have to decide how important this is to you in the overall scheme of things and the quality of other aspects of your marriage, and go from there.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

KAM1959 said:


> Finally, I am at my wits end. I have emotional and physical needs that have not been meet for a very long time and I really have no idea what to do to change this situation. All I know is there must be some kind of change and soon. My first, and primary choice is to find a way to stir her up if possible.



Marriage counseling is normally where you should start. If it doesn't work or she refuses to try, go to step #2


Ask her for an open marriage. After sex only twice a year for the past 7 years, I think it's time to consider more drastic measures. Even if she refuses it might at least "stir her up" and get the conversation going. After all, she would have to explain why she would care if you see other women when she doesn't even want you herself.



> _Next my second choice and least desired, is to have an extramarital affair._


I don't recommend this. If you are completely stalled out on every other option, then it's best to divorce and then you can see whoever you want. If you have an affair, you will be discovered eventually, and then you'll still get divorced, but on less favorable terms than otherwise. 

Here is another possibility you should consider, since you asked for outside opinions. You mentioned that: 


She dresses like a tomboy
She's a sports fan
She's lost interest in sex with her husband
These are circumstantial evidence, but they all point in the direction of a woman who has turned lesbian. You wouldn't be the only husband this happened to.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Theseus said:


> Marriage counseling is normally where you should start. If it doesn't work or she refuses to try, go to step #2
> 
> 
> Ask her for an open marriage. After sex only twice a year for the past 7 years, I think it's time to consider more drastic measures. Even if she refuses it might at least "stir her up" and get the conversation going. After all, she would have to explain why she would care if you see other women when she doesn't even want you herself.
> ...


Whats the work around to that?


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

KAM1959 said:


> Further, she has lost all femininity and is more like a tomboy than ever.


I agree this must be heart breaking. You have every right to expect intimacy and affection AND sex in your marriage.
I also agree with the above poster who suggested you ask for open marriage. She'll _probably_ hate the idea...hating the idea of you sharing that intimacy with another woman...that you _could_ become attached to over time. 
Sex being the bonding activity that it is.

What you describe is a 'sexless marriage' as defined by less than 10 x a year. 
Surely she doesn't expect you to live like a monk :scratchhead:

Anyway I'd run the 'open marriage' thing by her... at the very least it will ignite some lively discussion.

Don't cheat.... no-one likes a cheater... not even the cheater him/herself.

Divorce before it comes to that...please!

The above quote stood out to me... I'm gathering by the length of your marriage that she will have gone through menopause.
The lack of estrogen does cause _some_ women to lose a lot of their femininity and along with it sometimes their nurturing and caring tendencies disappear too, this age group of women often leave marriages and initiate divorces. I think there are many reasons for it...but I believe hormones play a big part too.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

waiwera said:


> I agree this must be heart breaking. You have every right to expect intimacy and affection AND sex in your marriage.
> I also agree with the above poster who suggested you ask for open marriage. She'll _probably_ hate the idea...hating the idea of you sharing that intimacy with another woman...that you _could_ become attached to over time.
> Sex being the bonding activity that it is.
> 
> ...


I just don't see why women who have gotten to this point can't even provide a minimal "duty" sex, logically knowing what it means. Not that they have a huge desire for it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

treyvion said:


> I just don't see why women who have gotten to this point can't even provide a minimal "duty" sex, logically knowing what it means. Not that they have a huge desire for it.


I don't personally understand it either. On the divorce due to lack of sex thread, the discussion centered on one particular type of refusing spouse who becomes so immersed in their need to hold all the cards, be the one to control the relationship, they simply can't stop themselves from exerting the control, they don't see or feel the level of pain it brings to the spouse they supposedly love. I think if you can identify your spouse in that scenario, there really is no way around it. You either live with it, have an affair or divorce. 

That is some kind of terrible pathological need for control and those spouses must be shriveled up shells on the inside.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Perhaps you might start by showing her this thread? I am hoping when I am older I will be able to remember all these threads in case some hormonal something turns me off sex. I have always enjoyed sex - but even if I didn't - there are many things we do for those we love that we might not feel like doing. Things like sex, I believe, have a synergy - good sex breeds good sex. Perhaps a person can be reminded of how much it was previously enjoyed if they give it a chance.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

I feel your pain.

We've been married 34 yrs too. Two kids on their own, two kids in elementary school.

Hubs is very successful in the entertainment industry and I'm doing well in my field. We have a nice home, new cars, etc.

Right now, he stays up late to watch TV when I go to bed, if he comes to bed, he turns his back to me and reads until I fall asleep. When we get an empty house (kids at sports practice) he runs outside to mow, weed, anything to avoid me. 

I had cardiac surgery a few yrs ago and after I became healthy, my libido when into overdrive. 

I look good for my age...I get hit on frequently. 

I do the things in bed I know he likes....As long as he likes...to the conclusion he likes. 

I'm very feminine, wear makeup, sexy sleepwear...

I suspect low T but he won't talk about it.

Just like you, I'm tired of the rejection.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

treyvion said:


> I just don't see why women who have gotten to this point can't even provide a minimal "duty" sex, logically knowing what it means. Not that they have a huge desire for it.


No I don't understand it either 
But then.... I've never walked in the shoes of a LD person.

I do think that every (LD) woman should read 'His Needs Her Needs' to understand _why_ men *need* sex and what sexual rejection means to them... at a heart level.
I've always been HD and we have a fairly high frequency of sex but reading this book made me love and desire my man even more!

I often wonder what impact it would have on someone who thinks hubby only wants sex because.... " he's animal", "he's sex mad", "only think about sex"...

Or maybe they care/love so little about their sex starved spouse it wouldn't change anything.

I hope not.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

waiwera said:


> No I don't understand it either
> But then.... I've never walked in the shoes of a LD person.
> 
> I do think that every (LD) woman should read 'His Needs Her Needs' to understand _why_ men *need* sex and what sexual rejection means to them... at a heart level.
> ...


Some of them would feel invaded almost raped to allow sex from their husbands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

treyvion said:


> Some of them would feel invaded almost raped to allow sex from their husbands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 :scratchhead:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't personally understand it either. On the divorce due to lack of sex thread, the discussion centered on one particular type of refusing spouse who becomes so immersed in their need to hold all the cards, be the one to control the relationship, they simply can't stop themselves from exerting the control, they don't see or feel the level of pain it brings to the spouse they supposedly love. I think if you can identify your spouse in that scenario, there really is no way around it. You either live with it, have an affair or divorce.
> 
> That is some kind of terrible pathological need for control and those spouses must be shriveled up shells on the inside.


That's basically what it is. They have no control over their children, who may be old enough to not worry about it, their spouses respond to withholding by ignoring and cold shouldering, they feel their body is betraying them, they hit the glass ceiling at work, etc etc etc.

If they can deal with most of that, good for them. If they can't, any thing they can deny or withhold becomes a bargaining chip.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Some of them would feel invaded almost raped to allow sex from their husbands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Then those people should leave their spouses and set them free to find love elsewhere.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Theseus said:


> Then those people should leave their spouses and set them free to find love elsewhere.


Maybe they feel it is love
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

LD person here, and this is my situation. I just don't feel desire for sex much and my hubby wants it more than me. When I just "give it up" to fulfill his needs he doesn't feel the satisfaction and comfort he would feel when I desire it too. The ld dilemma is this, should I state that I don't want it or should I just give it up anyway so he can at least get something. HDs don't think that we suffer in this but we do.

We suffer because we are failing you, while you go off and pout because we denied you yet again. Then we wonder what is wrong with us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

techmom said:


> LD person here, and this is my situation. I just don't feel desire for sex much and my hubby wants it more than me. When I just "give it up" to fulfill his needs he doesn't feel the satisfaction and comfort he would feel when I desire it too. The ld dilemma is this, should I state that I don't want it or should I just give it up anyway so he can at least get something. HDs don't think that we suffer in this but we do.
> 
> We suffer because we are failing you, while you go off and pout because we denied you yet again. Then we wonder what is wrong with us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



If I loved my husband, I would be having sex with him and acting like I liked it whether I actually wanted to have sex or not. Sex-starving a spouse is cruel.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> We suffer because we are failing you, while you go off and pout because we denied you yet again. Then we wonder what is wrong with us.


Rest assured, techmom, plenty of LD's out there don't even realize they're failing anyone, themselves or their partners or their relationship. A few do but most don't, and only wake up after the fact.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

" Ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise". Thomas Gray. It was meant to be ironic. 

Many women really don't know 
This is not popular to say but relationship problems. Husband may not know how important it is to his wife. Withdrawing when she is upset is a big one. Not communicating or tuning wife out or things said during an argument. 

Women don't forget and if conflict is unresolved, it accumulates. Maybe a good memory is an ingrained trait. Perhaps women were responsible for remembering where the best food was each season when we were hunter-gathers. 

Some consider changing to accommodate their wives as jumping through hoops. Seems kind of counterproductive if he expects his wife to understand him. 

Although the general consensus on this forum is that refusal is a "weapon" all of the time, that may not be true. It may be productive to at lest consider these factors in finding solutions. 

The solutions don't have to be groveling in nature. I think it is simply acknowledging that these things may be issues and make an effort to fix them. I think it's a waste of energy to do more than ones share of chores or flowers or foot rubs. 

That to me is the worse thing to do. It a service approach like an underling. I think being masterful self assured is better. 

Just sayin'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> "
> Although the general consensus on this forum is that refusal is a "weapon" all of the time, that may not be true. It may be productive to at lest consider these factors in finding solutions.


Refusing 4x a week when you're at 3x a week is as much of a weapon as a Nerf sword. On the other hand, once you fall to the point of the magic metric or below for a prolonged period of time and concocting nefarious reasons regarding it, it's as much a weapon as anything you can get at your local gun and ammo show.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

karole said:


> If I loved my husband, I would be having sex with him and acting like I liked it whether I actually wanted to have sex or not. Sex-starving a spouse is cruel.


How about having a spouse who does not like for you to fake it, who really wants you to "be into it". There is a thread on this board by a woman who faked it all of the time because her orgasm was so important to him. She was wondering if it was better to tell the truth or continue to fake it. A large amount of HD men said that telling him the truth was better than faking.

It is not a question of starving a spouse sexually, it is how much of the truth do you tell them? Many LDs come on this site and say that they put out just to please their spouse only to be told "duty sex sucks". If that is the case, then the burden of being in the mood falls on us. It is not like taking out the trash, working 40+ hours a week, or going to a restaurant you don't really care for. You are asking us to create a feeling in us that is just not there, just so we won't give you the dreaded duty sex.

I don't know why that has such a bad rep on these boards. Some LDs give sex lovingly even when they are not horny and panting. They do it out of love for their spouse, and I think that gesture should be given way more respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

I'll answer the original question. Intimacy is a fight because it is such an easy "Power position". If you are the troll of this position, they can't make you do anything, and you will have the control.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If "the feeling is not there", why bother keeping the marriage together then? 

How can the feeling be there when the mortgage payment is due or the trash needs to be taken out or the driveway plowed, but it magically disappears in the nookie department?

Call a spade a spade and tell it like it is. It is much more honest and palatable.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> If "the feeling is not there", why bother keeping the marriage together then?
> 
> How can the feeling be there when the mortgage payment is due or the trash needs to be taken out or the driveway plowed, but it magically disappears in the nookie department?
> 
> Call a spade a spade and tell it like it is. It is much more honest and palatable.


*Sigh* Let me try to explain again, and I'm not going to speak for all LDs just myself. When my hubby and I have sex, I am fufilled of my physical need for about a month before I need it again. This is not like paying the mortgage, and you can hire someone to plow your driveway. This is sex, and the reason why we call it intimacy is because it is inviting someone into your personal space who you love. I personally don't feel emotionally closer to my hubby after sex and I don't need it as much. On the other hand, he is ready for another romp in 2 days and I'm still satiated from the last one. But I still love my husband, I still go to work, pay the bills, do the laundry and everything else.

If HDs don't want sex to become another chore on their spouse's list, why do you always compare it to chores? Paying the mortgage is not intimate, neither is washing the dishes. But sex carries more psychological and emotional baggage than that, and for a LD to do it more often than they desire can be tiring and stressful.

I know that is not what you want to hear about something that means so much to you, but that is my truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

techmom said:


> If HDs don't want sex to become another chore on their spouse's list, why do you always compare it to chores? Paying the mortgage is not intimate, neither is washing the dishes. But sex carries more psychological and emotional baggage than that, and for a LD to do it more often than they desire can be tiring and stressful.
> 
> I know that is not what you want to hear about something that means so much to you, but that is my truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


John, I am posing this question to you because you seem to be an honest and forthright man. 

Do you think it is at all possible that a person who does not need sex as much as their partner can still have sex lovingly? 

Would it be satisfying for the HD spouse if the LD spouse was not able to fain passion? Would being receptive and loving be acceptable? 

I am not talking about your situation in particular. 

I am suggesting that there are a number of reasons for LD. Some of it is natural disposition, hormones, stress, relationship problems and hubris. 

Many people think it is always hubris. That assumption limits the solutions. I think having sex without spontaneous desire but willingly is a loving act. 

I don't know what more the LD spouse could do. Attitude is important. If its there is a "get it done" or "hurry up", attitude then that is a deliberate humiliation of a person that is supposed to be loved. It is abusive and cruel. 

John, is it at all possible that pride or the desire to be right that drives the one theory thinking? 

Tell me what you think.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If nookie carries so much emotional weight as you so succinctly put it, become tiring and stressful, how is that different from working for a month in a pressure cooker job long hours to pay the bills any less stressful?

Go thru a few rounds of layoffs and seeing coworkers you worked with for decades disappear and tell me this is any less emotionally draining or tiresome than nookie...

Life is not like a cafeteria where we pick and choose what we like from a list... But, because it is intimate nookie somehow achieves mythical powers bestowed only to the chosen ones...

How can something be relaxing and pleasurable once a month but not once a week? Or is it due to the fear that once a week will deteriorate to once a day?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

techmom said:


> How about having a spouse who does not like for you to fake it, who really wants you to "be into it". There is a thread on this board by a woman who faked it all of the time because her orgasm was so important to him. She was wondering if it was better to tell the truth or continue to fake it. A large amount of HD men said that telling him the truth was better than faking.
> 
> It is not a question of starving a spouse sexually, it is how much of the truth do you tell them? Many LDs come on this site and say that they put out just to please their spouse only to be told "duty sex sucks". If that is the case, then the burden of being in the mood falls on us. It is not like taking out the trash, working 40+ hours a week, or going to a restaurant you don't really care for. You are asking us to create a feeling in us that is just not there, just so we won't give you the dreaded duty sex.
> 
> ...


amein! :smthumbup:

As for the "duty sex" thing. Many times I am not really in the mood (make that most of the times), but I gave an enthusiastic performance, because I know that if I give my wife what she needs, she will be in a much better mood for other (non sexual)things afterwards. Plus, we are in scheduled-sex mode, so I have enough time to self-hypnotize myself, and takes supplements, before the act. If I am asked to make a comparison, it's like fixing and moving her parents's sound system with smiling (even though it's hard work) instead of with grumbling... When I did it while smiling, the enthusiasm rubbed off on her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> Do you think it is at all possible that a person who does not need sex as much as their partner can still have sex lovingly?


Yes, absolutely. There are lots of things we do lovingly - even tho we do not like them.



> Would it be satisfying for the HD spouse if the LD spouse was not able to fain passion? Would being receptive and loving be acceptable?


Yes, absolutely, once again. 

Receptive and loving is a good point to build from if the interest is there, or to establish some mutually agreed upon boundaries or metrics.

There are many areas of life where fake it till you make it is the norm. Most anything in fact is fake it till you make it, from arranged marriages to branching out in areas you've never dealt before at work to raising children to managing groups to running countries. 

One must be willing to try and improve or adapt. I'm not talking going from 1x a month to 50 Shades of Gray, but there are always compromises to be made. Some LD's do compromise gracefully, but many others do not as we all see here in TAM land.

Courtship and marriage in itself are fake it till you make it processes. We adapt, we change, and so on. It only goes bad when hard limits are established and it's downhill from there on.



> I am suggesting that there are a number of reasons for LD. Some of it is natural disposition, hormones, stress, relationship problems and hubris.
> 
> Many people think it is always hubris. That assumption limits the solutions. I think having sex without spontaneous desire but willingly is a loving act.


I'm not usually talking about vanilla flavor LD here or people who lucked out and got a BPD spouse and so on. TAM is full of stories of people who love each other, best friend etc yet hit the sheets single digits a year for many years. That's what LD is. 

Having sex lovingly and willingly without spontaneous desire is awesome, but it ain't seem to be happening. By the time we hit single digits per year for multiple years the horse has left the barn.



> I don't know what more the LD spouse could. Attitude is important. If its there is a "get it done" or "hurry up", attitude then that is a deliberate humiliation of a person that is supposed to be loved. It is abusive and cruel.


That, again, seems to be a lot more common of an occurrence...



> John, is it at all possible that pride or the desire to be right that drives the one theory thinking?


We like to classify and measure things as people so naturally we want to assign roles and responsibilities and keep score. Pride, naturally we compare ourselves with our peers. It's hard not to. We push our kids to get great SAT's. we take pride in that. Why not take pride in things intimate?

The one theory thinking is just a theory. We want to have an explanation and as far as explanations go, I am not in the mood week after week has as much credibility as the dog are my homework, regardless of the theory behind it..

We like to have a theory because in general, a theory of cause provides insight to possible solutions. In our mind at least hope springs eternal or something like that...


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> If nookie carries so much emotional weight as you so succinctly put it, become tiring and stressful, how is that different from working for a month in a pressure cooker job long hours to pay the bills any less stressful?
> 
> Go thru a few rounds of layoffs and seeing coworkers you worked with for decades disappear and tell me this is any less emotionally draining or tiresome than nookie...
> 
> ...


Wow, you just proved my point about how HDs compare sex to jobs and chores. It is like you are saying, "just do it! I don't care how you feel about it, I work for heavens sake! Just for you! So please do this just for me!......but please have as much desire for sex as I do or it won't be good enough and I will be chomping at the bit again! So, NO DUTY SEX!"

You see, our jobs are our duty. It is how we contribute to society and support ourselves. Even if we didn't have the terrible LD wife or your kids, you would still need to eat and put clothes on our own backs. We would still need a place to live with all of the amenties therein.

So, the HD spouse would not want their LD spouse to treat their desire as if it is their 9-5. She or he would clock in, do their 20 minutes (more or less) in the sack, then clock out and say "I'm outta here, job done"

Really romantic isn't it?

So stop comparing intimacy to a job.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Also, having more sex than you want seems like a job at times. It is like having thanksgiving dinner, then being offered another full meal. I'm just not hungry for sex like my hubby is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Both are responsibilities. That is what is common between them. We may not always do them because we like them, but because it is something that benefits us in the long term.

Nobody can tell anyone if they can or cannot work, or if they can or cannot have nookie. It has to come from within. What we can tell this person is to be honest and upfront. 

Membership in the LD sex-of-the-month club may or may not have been apparent before marriage. If it was, and both parties seemed ok with it, good for them. But if the membership came gift wrapped after the wedding, that's a different ball game. Or if excuse upon excuse is shoved down the ND/HD partner's throat for weeks and months and years on end, that's yet another ball game.

It takes two to communicate and conveniently enough, also two to nookie...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Techmom, you're painting this as black and white as it gets. It shows some hostility towards things that are not precisely per your expectation. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. My apologies in advance if this is the case.

Everything we do in life is a duty, a responsibility. School, work, religion, social activities, food, family, leisure, intimacy, you name it. None are optional if a healthy balance is to be maintained. We don't just 'do it' like the shoe commercial. It is all part of life.

As such, one must maintain a balance, a precarious one at times, between needs and wants, of priorities, and of consequences. We humans are complex creatures and should not, as you put it, do anything 'for duty'. 

Now my late father would disagree about the 'duty' part as a career Army officer who fought in WW2. And my late mother, who was very active in the Resistance in WW2. But that's pushing it. 

The bottom line is that you do what you need to do to keep your family running. That's the duty part. If nookie once a month works for you and your husband agreed with it, the more power to y'all. But if a switcharoo was pulled post wedding cake with no intention to address it, and impact likely to the spousal emotional connection, then what? 

Life is all about making the hard decisions, pun not intended, to help us meet our responsibilities and goals and communicate honestly and openly without resentments. 

If a relationship meets all that, then I'm all for it, 1x a month or 1x per day.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Most HDs think that just because sex was more frequent in the beginning than after marriage and kids that a switch was pulled. Many things happen in the course of life itself that can have an effect on libido. This has been explained time and time again on these boards but the same phrase comes up "bait and switch". I think that term is used to justify being angry at the LD spouse, "how dare you change over the course of 15 to 20 years! You are supposed to stay the same forever". The aging happens, gray hair comes in, wrinkles form, and the dreaded menopause. Marriage is an evolving thing, you need to understand that change happens.

Just like the man who used to be a stud, romantic, independent, full of hopes and dreams, killer bod and had all of his teeth. When he loses that is it a bait and switch? Did he present himself differently before in order to snag the lady into marriage? There is a thread on the boards where the HD male admits that he presented himself as something different than what he really was, and he's wondering why he doesn't get the sex he wants. And there were HD males making suggestions on how he could get more sex out of his wife, totally overlooking the bait and switch which took place. Can't have it both ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The situations we are encountering on TAM at least are all too similar..... Do some people change in the same exact way, nookie like bunnies, wedding cake, slowdown, kids, slowdown (so far so good) and all of a sudden, WHAM! Hello sex-of-the-month membership kit for the next decade.

People change, granted, but if every case's outcome is the same, one has to wonder. In many cases change seems to happen at the same time, too. Marry at 25, kids by 30, ok nookie for a while, slow down at 35, and by the time we are 40-45, hello Trojan single serving before expiration date is met time.

Maybe the tooth fairy does exist after all..


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

techmom said:


> Most HDs think that just because sex was more frequent in the beginning than after marriage and kids that a switch was pulled. ..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Techmom, you've made several statements I wanted to address.

The first is concerning the comparisons to chores. From a defensive posture (which you've admitted to), I can see where this seems to be a no-win situation. As another poster mentions here, enthusiasm and passion are different things but can accomplish the same purpose towards making the SO feel loved. The unpassionate "dead fish" or "get it over with" attitude does NOT accomplish this, and instead makes the SO feel that much WORSE. Note that I said WORSE. There have been times that I felt so undesired, and yet so pent up with desire myself, that I jumped at any chance for intimacy with my wife. And when that episode was as many describe here, approached with no enthusiasm or interest, you end up feeling like a jackass twice. Once for even being offered duty sex, and the second because you accepted it. 

I would proffer another take on the "chore" comment, not so much as a direct comparison but as a look at "approach". 

Many people can do even the most distasteful chores with at least a "can-do" attitude/approach. Cleaning up urine/feces, be it from animals or children - check. While not enjoyable, they may be rarely whined about, even more rarely neglected, even more rarely used as some sort of bargaining chip. The offending party (child/animal) is rarely accused of being some sort of degenerate or beholden to some disorder.

Now lets look at the responses, chronicled by numerous men, to requesting that they get more access to sex. Whining -yup. Neglected - absolutely. Bargained for - disgustingly, yes. Accusing the man (or HD spouse) of being a "sex fiend", "sex addict", or the like - far too often. And this is the response for simply asking for MORE of a behavior already engaged in, that is *supposedly* pleasurable for both parties. 

Is this to say that the woman should be on call, 24/7, to submit to the whims of the man and do so in automaton-barbie fashion with screaming fake "O's"? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Most would settle for more duty sex. I would *think* (opinion alert) that a loving, caring partner would recognize how important it was to their spouse (HD), and work to make it something that they DID WANT to do more frequently. The "work" should be about making it more pleasurable for the LD, or get them warmed up to the passionate parts.

Place yourself in the shoes of the HD spouse. To them, while they don't WANT it to be a chore, you not only act like its a chore, but you seem to be more able to handle cleanup of feces or the carrying of garbage than an uptick in frequency of intimacy. And instead of ANY interest in making this any better (whereas the man (LD) might be trying to lose weight, shaving differently/more, smell nicer, buy gifts, give massages, etc etc), the only thing they get in return is excuses. Couple this also with the recognition that in so many of these stories, they end with the supposedly low libido, uninterested in sex wife (LD spouse) ending up leaving/having an affair that includes some crazy-monkey-sex.

There IS a bait and switch to so many marriages, unless of course you are submitting that the wedding cake myth is actually true. I don't pretend to argue that the man (HD spouse) is not in part or even mostly to blame for this, possibly. But for some reason, the discussion with the sex gatekeeper is treated entirely differently than say, the money gatekeeper. And then also, in so many of these stories, when the money gatekeeper finally closes the doors, THEN suddenly there can be a turnaround.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

This has been a very riveting discussion to read. 

I consider sex (in my marriage) as a form of communication. It is a very intimate and dynamic form of communication that is tied to emotions, needs, and desires. It goes with the whole "intercourse" meaning to sex. As far as HD and LD, generally I am more HD than my wife. Sometimes she surprises me with her desire for sex and I am instantly ready to go at it. All that is well and good. 

I am going to weigh in on the work/duty vs. lovingly being available for the HD spouse.

I am very forthcoming with my wife about my desire for intimacy. I had to feel like I could trust her to really care, regardless of the outcome to start doing that. It took time, trust and lots of communication together for me to be comfortable doing so.

It is an accepted and understood part of our relationship now. I can easily agree to wait for a better time to be intimate with her b/c often, the very act of communicating about it relieves the anxiety over not having it at present. 

It takes the pressure off her, and it sets me at ease knowing that she loves me--and will sooner than later be with me. 

My normal approach to loving my wife follows the scriptures, Ephesians 5:25 to love my wife as Christ loved the church, 1 Peter 3:7 to live with her in understanding. I know her needs and I fulfill them all the day long if need be, and I enjoy doing so. She does the same. That loving connection leads to wonderful sex. This too was not always the case, but we grew together in it.

Sometimes she chooses to have sex with me, because she knows when I am really needing sex as apposed to wanting it. There have been times when we had to work through big problems and we would talk through it for hours sometimes. But, more often than not, that ends in sex too.

The last time I shared this someone replied, that all this was "just too much work." But, it is a very satisfying and caring work that has built my marriage up big-time!

The common thread in all of this is: communication. Marriage is the framework of that communication. It took working through many issues, mistakes, and committing to be for each other. I lose no sense of pride in these admissions. 

Marriage creates a situation of duty to one another. But, that duty can be done with joy, or it can be done with robotic apathy. One of the two creates real communion together. 

Love sometimes is shown when a wife chooses to give her husband sex when she is not in the mood. It is her choice to do it out of a sense of caring too. 

Some women are not comfortable with the idea of doing that. Perhaps communication creates unity, and a sense of trust that would otherwise be destroyed by withholding as a power play tactic. And, it is a lot better than turning on a dime and making her feel terrible for offering "duty sex."


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Oh, and as far as the part where I said, "I know her needs"--I was kinda generalizing there. If I do not know a particular need and I detect that something is wrong, I try to be there for her by asking her, "how are you feeling", listening, making sure I understood her correctly, and then ask her, "is there something I can do to help?" And then if she wants me to help I ask, "how can I best do that?"

It's a joy. Seriously! Sex may or may not be a result. That's gravy. The joy comes in being the man she needs and vice-versa. 

Lead from the front and if she has love in her heart, she will appreciate your heart in the matter and follow suite. 

True. Sometimes she tells me that I can't help her. Then it is best to help by not helping. I just validate what she is feeling and be there if she needs me. I allowed her to teach me these lessons through communication. Communication sometimes hurts, and it sucks, but it is always worth it, when there is a commitment to succeed together.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Communication won't do you any good if people are not willing or able to to adjust their behavior based on the communication.

My wife, much like other card carrying nookie-of-the-month LD club here on TAM will not adjust her judiciously metered throughput to anything higher. We can communicate all we want but ultimately, as the proverb goes, "arguments with furniture are hardly productive".

One can wait and do all the right things and the monthly interval is as un-changeable as π or e (pi or the natural log) for you math majors.

In true LD black and white thinking its either nothing or once a month (maybe 1/12 or 0.083333 should be inducted in the Natural Constants Hall of Fame alongside 3.14159, etc as in http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientific_constants_named_after_people )...


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Sometimes the money gatekeeper is the so-called sex gatekeeper. I'm LD and I do out earn my hubby. Also, to answer some other points, I don't call hubby a perv for wanting sex. I try to give to him in a generous manner, but he wants genuine desire. Without the genuine desire coming from me he may feel like a perv or horrible. Duty sex carries so many negative connotations, rolling eyes and heavy annoyed sighs. I don't do that. I realize that other LDs do, and that maybe a passive aggressive way to get the HD to back off and stop pestering. It's a negative way to do so, and it starts the downward spiraling.

The "wedding cake" myth is true only for the HD who did not vet out the LD partner well enough to determine whether he or she had a true interest in sex or was just going through the motions just to get married. They didn't spend long enough time in the relationship pre-marriage (say 2 years). In this way, the LD's true libido will surface so that a decision will be made.

There are threads with HDs who are not married yet complaining about the sex. This is the time to leave, not to try to stay and work on the problem. But the HD is still in love and willing to ignore this very important problem, they think that it would change after marriage. But it doesn't. That is not as a result of wedding cake or bait and switch. The LD can leave too, but evidently his/her goal is marriage with security and children, etc, not a fulfilling sex life. The HD's goal is sex. Both parners have to be true to their goal in getting married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> The LD can leave too, but evidently his/her goal is marriage with security and children, etc, not a fulfilling sex life. The HD's goal is sex. Both partners have to be true to their goal in getting married.


The HD (or should we say ND) goal is not "sex" but a meaningful emotionally fulfilling relationship. 

As for vetting, kindly refer to my earlier post about the recurring transformation from sheet-twisting HD pre-cake to ho-hum a few years post-cake to .083333 status at the 15 year mark, right at the point where money, family, career, kids, etc are all stable. Did all those non-LD's fail to vet?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john117 said:


> The HD (or should we say ND) goal is not "sex" but a meaningful emotionally fulfilling relationship.
> 
> As for vetting, kindly refer to my earlier post about the recurring transformation from sheet-twisting HD pre-cake to ho-hum a few years post-cake to .083333 status at the 15 year mark, right at the point where money, family, career, kids, etc are all stable. Did all those non-LD's fail to vet?


At the point when the sex decreases enough to cause the non LD distress, then the relationship is no longer emotionally fulfilling. When it causes the non LD to post on a message board, that is when the non LD should question if he/she can continue to just plod along hoping it will get better post wedding cake.

This is why I say that 2 years should be enough time to vet these things out. The non LD shouldn't hedge their bets on wishes and hopes regarding something as large as sex in marriage, which leads to emotional fulfillment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

There are chemicals present in the body which cause the "in love" feelings in the beginning of romantic relationships. This causes the sheet twisting, hyper sexual behavior, the honeymoon stage. This is why some LDs do cheat and experience these feelings with a lover while they lost these feelings for their spouse of 15 years who sits at home wondering where the loving went. 

When relationships haven't had time to mature into the next stage where the "in love" chemicals wear off and the couple heads into marriage, you may experience the drop off in sex if the other partner is LD. LDs generally experience higher drive during the very beginning of the relationship which leads the non LD to think that they loved sex and desired it like them. But it is just those chemicals which cause us to bond and mate. It takes about 2 years for those chemicals to wear off, then you see who you are really marrying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

techmom said:


> ....Also, to answer some other points, I don't call hubby a perv for wanting sex. I try to give to him in a generous manner, but he wants genuine desire. Without the genuine desire coming from me he may feel like a perv or horrible. Duty sex carries so many negative connotations, rolling eyes and heavy annoyed sighs. I don't do that....


:iagree:
Duty sex but given with true love and enthusiasm, that's what I do for my wife, and maybe that's what techmom gave to her husband. Is it techmom?



> I realize that other LDs do, and that maybe a passive aggressive way to get the HD to back off and stop pestering. It's a negative way to do so, and it starts the downward spiraling...


Now, that's a bad kind of duty sex and that's what gives us LDs a bad name.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :iagree:
> Duty sex but given with true love and enthusiasm, that's what I do for my wife, and maybe that's what techmom gave to her husband. Is it techmom?
> 
> 
> ...


That is what I do, however not all HDs are satisfied with that effort like your wife. You are a lucky man 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most members of the .083333 club would gladly accept even duty sex if offered more frequently. If TAM is any indication that's what they get anyway. I guess I should feel good that my .083333's are a lot better quality wise


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

techmom said:


> That is what I do, however not all HDs are satisfied with that effort like your wife. You are a lucky man
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::smthumbup: 

Indeed I am a lucky guy! I give lots of credits to my wife for her understanding, and to the good people who invented Kratingdaeng, a wonderful food supplement, really does wonders for my stamina.










you're also a good wife techmom. :smthumbup:

Normal people cannot understand this, but for lower-drive folks like us, trying to act like normal-drive actually took serious efforts. Think like this, we LDs do like sex and enjoy it, but it takes more efforts for us to do so, more than normal-drive people. So, something that you normal people out there does naturally, we LDs must take some effort to do it as well as you do. Like asking very short people to play basketball. Possible, yes. But the handicap level is higher.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Techmom, you've made several statements I wanted to address.
> 
> Note that I said WORSE. There have been times that I felt so undesired, and yet so pent up with desire myself, that I jumped at any chance for intimacy with my wife. And when that episode was as many describe here, approached with no enthusiasm or interest, you end up feeling like a jackass twice. Once for even being offered duty sex, and the second because you accepted it.
> 
> ...


I have not read anything that Techmom posted that indicates she humiliates her husband or did a bait and switch. I don't want to speak for her but it sounds like she is a LD spouse who is very loving and insightful. 

Otherwise, I can't think of a recent post by a HD spouse that I want to give 100 likes. I think your post is hard to argue with. The sentences in red are particularly noteworthy. 

I thought about the situation of men/women who have sex and either overtly or conversely make it clear that they don't like it. They ambush the person they say they love by humiliating them when they are most vulnerable, during the intimate act of sex.

It seems the equivalent of slapping a loving brother in need while giving him a dime. Why bother. It seems to be a pattern that I think needs to be addressed in therapy or at the very lest exposed for what it is, abusive and maladaptive.

But it takes place behind closed doors and the only persons who know about it are the two people in the room. 

I wonder if the people who do this would stand up in a room and announce "I go to great pains to humiliate my spouse when we have sex. He/she is my best friend by the way, a great parent, supportive, faithful and loving, but I want to make him/her feel like a low life", "I think cheating is awful and I'd leave my spouse if that happened". 

Sounds crazy, right? Why is this type of abuse widely tolerated? I agree with John when he said something to the effect of, it is kinder to tell the spouse that you are contemptuous of them and that if you have sex you will let them feel your contempt. There, it out in front and the spouse can choose. 

Accept bitter sex, do without, have sex with someone who does not despise them before or after D.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

My husband has spontaneous SD and i have a responsive sex drive. I wont call it LD. Desire for me comes after I feel aroused. Sometimes I can't manage to ignite but I still have sex. I have as high a need for affection and caressing as my husband has for sex. 

I would feel very hurt if the sex I have when I don't feel aroused was considered duty sex. It is not to me, I put in the same effort to please him out of love as when I am aroused. It is different but it does not happen frequently and I am in no way resentful or angry. I get as much out of it as he does, maybe more. 

So when I can't get aroused I still enjoy the ride because I love being touched by him.

I'd like to ask John and ET if either of you were aware that most men have spontaneous desire but many women have responsive desire. How did you or do you handle this with your wives? 

Were you aware that many women need time to get warmed up before they feel the desire to have sex. Men can get aroused almost instantly, many women cannot always do this.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I'd like to ask John and ET if either of you were aware that most men have spontaneous desire but many women have responsive desire. How did you or do you handle this with your wives? ....Were you aware that many women need time to get warmed up before they feel the desire to have sex. Men can get aroused almost instantly, many women cannot always do this.


I know of some men who could get aroused almost instantly, and I wish I could be like them. Unfortunately oftentimes I am too much focused on other things. To get aroused for me requires concentration and efforts. 

Likewise, I do understand that many women does not get aroused easily. Especially if they are not pleased with husband's behavior, or something else related to them, be it their work, their earnings, their social standing, their environment, etc. They must get past their displeasure first, which sometimes not easy, before they could be reminded again that sex is something to be enjoyed. The husband could help by trying to facilitate the enjoyment and reduce the displeasure. But the wife must _WANT_ to overcome that displeasure out of her own free will. Otherwise no amount of efforts by the husband would matter.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> But the wife must _WANT_ to overcome that displeasure out of her own free will. Otherwise no amount of efforts by the husband would matter.


The trick here is the meaning of the word "fun" for both partners. I cringe thinking what "fun" would cost if either me or my wife had our sole way. Camera equipment and trips for me, collectibles, artwork, and landscape stuff for her. Nookie is inexpensive entertainment no matter what - unless the free will department is out on vacation.

I know many people who make very good money and yet don't know how to make the best of them. Every three day weekend and a couple times a year they load the family in the minivan and visit the parents or in laws or what not. They don't go for life experiences. As an avid photographer I go for exactly that. Experiences.

Sex is like that. Experiences. Yet the workaholic "job creators" and other thinkers like that have taken any enjoyable activity they can think of and morphed it into sin, slacking, and the like. Consider the workaholic husband who has to fit sex into his busy schedule, or the harried mom who can't spend Saturday night in a motel with her husband because of all the wholesome activities she painted herself in a corner with.

As a result, we don't know how to have fun, be it a weekend of cards like my father did (Friday to Monday) or very frequent opera and symphony and the like for my mom. Such things ain't happening here, it's all hurry this and deadline that and soccer this and ballet that.

At the end we built a great economy and have zero time or money left to enjoy it. Sex is the least of our troubles... Yet the more we stress about sex the more we don't do it. We need to learn how to have fun first, alone, then with our spouse, then sex will follow.

LD is a symptom of a lifestyle gone haywire..


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

john117 said:


> ....Sex is like that. Experiences. Yet the workaholic "job creators" and other thinkers like that have taken any enjoyable activity they can think of and morphed it into sin, slacking, and the like. Consider the workaholic husband who has to fit sex into his busy schedule..


ouch!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> ouch!


LOLZ 

Look at the good side... The job creators who live around me get to marry the best looking chicks and often remarry when said chicks hit the magic 0.833333... (Take that, TAM). Yet between the board room and the country club, no time for nookie.

The slackers like me get to work bank hours, still make good money, but somehow we are perceived as "lacking" because we don't drive phallic symbol vehicles or have superpowers and so on.

It's just sex damn it, it's not rocket science


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> The trick here is the meaning of the word "fun" for both partners. I cringe thinking what "fun" would cost if either me or my wife had our sole way. Camera equipment and trips for me, collectibles, artwork, and landscape stuff for her. Nookie is inexpensive entertainment no matter what - unless the free will department is out on vacation.


The very thought of what people do for fun intrigues me to no end. The golfer who relishes the sport will do just about anything to shave just a little bit off his game. Photography is definitely one of those passions that compel people to go to great heights to experience it in new and exciting ways. 

Those kinds of passions can make someone truly thrive instead of just make a living. But would someone say that their marriage itself is their passion? I have not found many who boldly proclaim this in any way, yet. 

So that got me thinking... I started asking couples I knew about the passionate hobbies and experiences they shared often together with their spouse. 

The answers were varied and mostly consisted of simple pleasures and interests. Case in point. One of my passions is working out. And, recently my wife was the one to initiate doing it together. Its fantastic! 

I couldn't help but think of a couple that were strongly involved in each others "work out" and exercise passions, Frank and Christine Zane. As a young couple in 1970, they competed in physique competitions together. Frank won the 1970 amateur Mr. Universe and Christine won the Ms. Bikini contest. Now in their 70's (thank you wikipedia) "In 1985, Frank and his wife Christine owned and operated Zane Haven in Palm Springs, CA where they conducted one-on-one sessions with clients who wished to possess a symmetrical physique. Today, the Zanes live in San Diego, CA and his learning center is now called Zane Experience." 

My point is that if possible, shared passionate pursuits and dreams should be explored within a marriage. One of my favorite married couple photos is one of the Zanes exercising together.

Is all this critical to the success of a marriage or sex-life. No. But, it can certainly be a catalyst for making life together and sex a shared fun experience. It can be an outgrowth from the dream shared and experienced together.



john117 said:


> At the end we built a great economy and have zero time or money left to enjoy it. Sex is the least of our troubles... Yet the more we stress about sex the more we don't do it. We need to learn how to have fun first, alone, then with our spouse, then sex will follow.
> 
> LD is a symptom of a lifestyle gone haywire..


Agreed!


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> Sex is like that. Experiences. Yet the workaholic "job creators" and other thinkers like that have taken any enjoyable activity they can think of and morphed it into sin, slacking, and the like. Consider the workaholic husband who has to fit sex into his busy schedule, or the harried mom who can't spend Saturday night in a motel with her husband because of all the wholesome activities she painted herself in a corner with.


I think the problem is unfettered workaholism. In some cases the man's ego takes over and he becomes married to his profession. He receives the respect and admiration there in far greater quantities than at home.

And, the wife is an afterthought at the end of a long work day. He is not "all there" when he gets home. He is not "all-in" when he switches from provider to husband and father. 

Am I lumping all hard working "power earners", and entrepreneurs together? No. Not all power players get snared in the "workaholic" trap. I'm not making any far-reaching indictment here. 

But I do recognize the lurking dangers of getting caught up in the thrill of success without home success to balance it out. One's profession can drastically pull family providers into a lack of work/life balance, that leaves the bed cold, and the office as the sole source of joy and accomplishment.

If the man caught in this snare were to take a break before walking through the front door... If he were to make a conscious decision to connect with her first off, as soon as he walks through the door, then I bet things would be different.



john117 said:


> LD is a symptom of a lifestyle gone haywire..


Indeed!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A pair of former neighbors did something similar. The husband sold his dot com era business and put it into a restaurant with his wife. Both were super good looking and looked like they would be the super HD types.

A year later the husband started cheating with the live in nanny, a very uninspiring looking exchange student. The wife, not to be outdone, cheated with an employee of the business. A very ugly divorce ensued and they lost everything. 

Several very ugly divorces around us have occurred, most of them when an executive level husband cheats on his wife of a certain age...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Rough Patch Sewing said:


> And, the wife is an afterthought at the end of a long work day. He is not "all there" when he gets home. He is not "all-in" when he switches from provider to husband and father..


I agree and could relate to all this. This is something very closely related to culture. Husbands are supposed to be providers and I think the cultural over-emphasis on this role, also has bad side effects. It makes husbands thinks that their only worth in this world are as providers. Forgetting that they are also husbands. Too much emphasis on duty to feed the family. Making them forget that husbands also has rights to enjoy their wives. Making them consider this "rights" as unnecessary luxury.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

john117 said:


> A pair of former neighbors did something similar. The husband sold his dot com era business and put it into a restaurant with his wife. Both were super good looking and looked like they would be the super HD types.
> 
> A year later the husband started cheating with the live in nanny, a very uninspiring looking exchange student. The wife, not to be outdone, cheated with an employee of the business. A very ugly divorce ensued and they lost everything.
> 
> Several very ugly divorces around us have occurred, most of them when an executive level husband cheats on his wife of a certain age...


Power and Ego can tear down a marriage like any other self-centered focus that robs a marriage of intimacy and trust.


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