# Do I just need to be patient?



## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

My wife and I made divorce a four letter word from the time we became engaged. We agreed that barring violence or something like that, divorce would never be an option. Last month she said she has been considering it for some time and finally had to let me know. I panicked and cried and was hurt, but agreed to try to work on communication and if things were not better in a couple of weeks, we could see a therapist. After that conversation, we entered two weeks of marital bliss from my perspective. We has lots of amazing sex and she told me she appreciated all the extra help I was giving around the house and with our sons. 

I need to mention that I like to take weekend trips about once a month to enjoy my hobby. When my next trip came around, about two days before I left, My wife changed. She became distant and the closeness we had vanished. On my return from the trip, I tried to discuss the issue but was very needy. I agreed to seek a therapist. She said she wanted to work on it but we should just be friends. A few days later during a painful talk about how she was numb and had no feelings for me, I begged for sex. She finally gave in and took off her pants. I told her I did not want it this way, but she said to just do it. I did.

She now has told me she felt like she was being raped. She felt sexually abused. We talked to a therapist and I was advised to give her space. Since then, about 3 weeks ago, I have slept next to her and not tried anything. I scratched her back once at her request, but did not try to get more.

We have gone out to dinner with our kids. I have brought her flowers, jewelry, foods she likes and she has said it is too much. She wants time and friendship and cannot say if this will work out, but she promised to try until the end of the school year.

Since then we have done a good job of being friends, talking alot, and I have done a good job at improving myself as a father and helping with chores. I am trying to reduce her home work load. She has shown appreciation, but earlier this week when I picked up our kids from school and took them to fly a kite, my wife lost it after they went to bed. She said I went from being not enough to a dad to a Superdad and needed to find a middle ground. She repeats that she wants to just be friends right now - which we are doing.

I am in agony inside because I am having trouble dealing with the specter of divorce and being just friends hurts so badly. She does hug me and give me quick kisses.

Do I need to just embrace being friends and give her time to stop feeling numb about our relationship?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Marriage is about two people. When we think how much fun we are getting, have we ever thought how much fun they are getting. I don't know your history, but from your post, I can tell that your wife is very sad in this marriage. And I sensed you haven't been a very good husband to her. She likes the way you are now, but she is so worried that you are going to go back to the old same you. She doesn't feel secure. 

When I read posts about " I don't get this this this, I am sad", I talk to my husband. And my husband said that when we want to make our spouses happy, we should always suggest doing things they like. Don't even think that you may not be reciprocated, because most likely you will be reciprocated. 

Running a marriage is not easy, never think that it will just be fine there without any effort. 

When we get married, she is my princess, he is my prince. But after a few years, the princess becomes an ugly witch, the prince becomes a beast, why?????? 

Why????????????????

Figure out why, then try!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> I don't know your history, but from your post, I can tell that your wife is very sad in this marriage. And I sensed you haven't been a very good husband to her. She likes the way you are now, but she is so worried that you are going to go back to the old same you. She doesn't feel secure.


She has stated that she if worried that I may go back to not doing my share of house work and taking care of the twins. I can't do anything to prove this but continue to do all I can. I have come to the point that I actually enjoy dishes and laundry because I feel like I am doing something to fix our relationship.


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

You went from two weeks of marital bliss to a distant wife a couple days before your weekend trip? Would you say it was because of your trip? Maybe she felt like things were changing but when you left for the trip you failed a test. Just a thought.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

ButterflyKisses said:


> You went from two weeks of marital bliss to a distant wife a couple days before your weekend trip? Would you say it was because of your trip? Maybe she felt like things were changing but when you left for the trip you failed a test. Just a thought.


Clearly my trips leave her alone to deal with the kids and chores. She has told me not to cancel a trip in a couple of weeks, but i may anyway


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

It does seem that the trip was the reason for her complete change in behavior, unless there was another factor that could have caused it.

What prompted her to consider divorce? Is feeling overwhelmed with the kids and chores her only complaint?


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

ButterflyKisses said:


> What prompted her to consider divorce? Is feeling overwhelmed with the kids and chores her only complaint?


This feeling fed into her reluctance for intimacy and so my pressuring her for affection and sex made her feel like she was doing all this work then being asked to make love when she did not want to. I Knew our love life had lost its spark, but I did not see the compounding spiral taking place. Now I have completely stopped pressuring her for any contact in bed. I must say we are generally doing a fine job of being friends. She shares her work and family worries with me and our communication is not angry or sarcastic. I am worried about this being the situation from here on out or descending into further distancing from each other. She tells me she may never feel intimate with me. I am looking for ways to help her to want me again. I always took her loyalty as a given and now that it has cracked, I am desperate to earn it back. I take responsibility for being selfish and just wish I knew the path back into her heart.

I am taking responsibility, but I should also mention that both of our moms are fighting breast cancer currently. This stress certainly is making it hard to go out and have a relaxing date together. Yesterday she also found out an Aunt is going to die from Pancreatic cancer. And on top of that her previously supportive boss has transformed into a jerk because he over heard my wife speaking to me about a personal issue of his.


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

daddy of twins said:


> This feeling fed into her reluctance for intimacy and so my pressuring her for affection and sex made her feel like she was doing all this work then being asked to make love when she did not want to. I Knew our love life had lost its spark, but I did not see the compounding spiral taking place. Now I have completely stopped pressuring her for any contact in bed. I must say we are generally doing a fine job of being friends. She shares her work and family worries with me and our communication is not angry or sarcastic. I am worried about this being the situation from here on out or descending into further distancing from each other. She tells me she may never feel intimate with me. I am looking for ways to help her to want me again. I always took her loyalty as a given and now that it has cracked, I am desperate to earn it back. I take responsibility for being selfish and just wish I knew the path back into her heart.
> 
> I am taking responsibility, but I should also mention that both of our moms are fighting breast cancer currently. This stress certainly is making it hard to go out and have a relaxing date together. Yesterday she also found out an Aunt is going to die from Pancreatic cancer. And on top of that her previously supportive boss has transformed into a jerk because he over heard my wife speaking to me about a personal issue of his.


I agree, the stress from all that is going on right now is going to make it harder to concentrate on the marriage. 

What if you did cancel your next weekend trip and chose to spend that time with her instead? That selfless act could be what she needs to see in order to feel like you truly do want to make things right again. 

It sounds as if a combination of stress and feeling alone was what made her withdraw from intimacy, so yeah, maybe giving her some space in that department would help also. 

Is she still open to non-sexual acts of affection?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

A couple of things jump out at me. First, she works and you said "being not enough to a dad" I get the impression that she felt that she was doing all the heavy lifting in the family and you were taking one weekend away.

Notice how everything was fine until you left for the next trip? It isn't the trip, it's her perception of your role in the family.

And it isn't the fact that you are being Superdad, it's that you're not being Superhusband.

You seem to have improved on some of this, but now she is withholding sex as part of the bargaining. Not conducive to repairing the marriage.


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> but now she is withholding sex as part of the bargaining. Not conducive to repairing the marriage.


Withholding or finding herself unable to commit to such an intimate act with someone who is supposed to love her but was willing to sit back for however long and allow her to shoulder the load?

Nothing against you, daddy of twins, just that not all women who lose their interest in sex intentionally do so to punishment their partner.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

The remark about "superdad" indicates to me that your reaction is over the top and she realizes you will not keep that pace forever. She is looking for a sustained effort from you at a reasonable level. It could also mean that you are doing so much you have usurped her value in the household and she resents it.

Two words jump out at me from your thread. Needy and doting. Neither will win her back. You need to attend to the needs of the family and not dote on her. Superdad is a result of this. Second you need to have confidence and not wander around like a wounded puppy. That will be a huge turn off for her. The more confidence you show in your efforts for the family, in your work and in yourself the more she will notice and respond. She needs to know that you are up to the task of recovery for the long haul.

Finally don't gage everything on sex. If she doesn't have sex with you it doesn't mean she doesn't love you, if she does have sex with you it doesn't mean she does. She has lost her emotional connection to you so sex with you is not appealing. Work on the emotional connection (confidently) and the intimacy will follow with time.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> The remark about "superdad" indicates to me that your reaction is over the top and she realizes you will not keep that pace forever. She is looking for a sustained effort from you at a reasonable level. It could also mean that you are doing so much you have usurped her value in the household and she resents it.
> 
> Two words jump out at me from your thread. Needy and doting. Neither will win her back. You need to attend to the needs of the family and not dote on her. Superdad is a result of this. Second you need to have confidence and not wander around like a wounded puppy. That will be a huge turn off for her. The more confidence you show in your efforts for the family, in your work and in yourself the more she will notice and respond. She needs to know that you are up to the task of recovery for the long haul.
> 
> Finally don't gage everything on sex. If she doesn't have sex with you it doesn't mean she doesn't love you, if she does have sex with you it doesn't mean she does. She has lost her emotional connection to you so sex with you is not appealing. Work on the emotional connection (confidently) and the intimacy will follow with time.


Totally agree with the above!


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> The remark about "superdad" indicates to me that your reaction is over the top and she realizes you will not keep that pace forever. She is looking for a sustained effort from you at a reasonable level. It could also mean that you are doing so much you have usurped her value in the household and she resents it.
> 
> Two words jump out at me from your thread. Needy and doting. Neither will win her back. You need to attend to the needs of the family and not dote on her. Superdad is a result of this. Second you need to have confidence and not wander around like a wounded puppy. That will be a huge turn off for her. The more confidence you show in your efforts for the family, in your work and in yourself the more she will notice and respond. She needs to know that you are up to the task of recovery for the long haul.
> 
> Finally don't gage everything on sex. If she doesn't have sex with you it doesn't mean she doesn't love you, if she does have sex with you it doesn't mean she does. She has lost her emotional connection to you so sex with you is not appealing. Work on the emotional connection (confidently) and the intimacy will follow with time.


Good advice, but not totally easy to achieve. I am working to find an appropriate level of involvement with my wife, the kids, and chores so I can confidently fulfill her needs and then give her space. Do more laundry and dishes, help with homework and getting the boys to bed, listen to her concerns, but then go do my thing and give her space.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Is this a good line of thought?

I just looked at my wife's page on a social networking site. Nearly every picture on there is of some time we were together having fun. Looking at it, I realized that I really am my wife's best friend. She chit chatted with me about work stuff for a long time last night. I made her laugh. She called me today to tell me how the drama progressed and complimented my advice.

We went out together as a family last night and had fun. Were going again tonight. I am starting to feel pretty confident that she has been desperate to improve our marriage, but she is not really near the leap to leave me. I am certain if I could keep my current frame of mind, everything would work out the fastest.

One interesting observation is that the longer this rift lasts, it seem the prettier my wife gets. She had her gym stuff on this morning when I left for work I was literally drooling. I was a good boy and said and did nothing needy.


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## Boogsie (Aug 24, 2010)

Let me offer something. Be wary of the "friend" thing. Husbands and wifes are supposed to be friendly with each other, but, I've learned in my marriage that my wife considers me her "best friend". I have been paying the price because she sees me as a friend and not her husband.

Ask any male who a woman has put in the friend zone. I make it perfectly clear to my wife that we aren't friends. We are husband and wife. That relationship has some aspects of friendship, but it is NOT a friend type relationship. I don't sleep with my friends, and she doesn't either, which is why we are in the place we are.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Some good news to report. My wife has told me she went from "not wanting to work on our marriage, to wanting to want to work, to wanting to work on our marriage." She has also discussed a relationship questionnaire with me while sitting on the couch with our legs touching, holding my hand, and telling me she loves me and likes me. She respects me and is proud of the work I have put into our marriage and addressing other issues in my life. She has a bad case of poison ivy and allowed me to scratch her back while she fell asleep. She is getting optimistic and it seems that her only fear is that I will rest on my laurels and not continue to work to keep our marriage healthy. She is taking a 2 day work trip this week and told me she is happy that she knows she will return to a tidy house and not a pile of chores.

I am really starting to get confident that the bottom is behind us and her thoughts of me are becoming more about the now and the future and less on the past and her past disappointments. 

Finally, the questionnaire was very therapeutic because I learned about all of the positive opinions she has about me and could see how my efforts have been well targeted at very important issues for her. She was also relieved and flattered by some of my comments. Most importantly for me, she now understands why security in the relationship is paramount among my needs.

:smthumbup:


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## Hopeful1 (Aug 31, 2010)

Great news for you both, Daddy! Keep up the good work -- don't let things slide. But don't be surprised of at some point you are faced with a bit of a roller coaster as she struggles to gain trust in your efforts. It seems to be a part of the process for those of us who are going through similar issues.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Hopeful1 said:


> Great news for you both, Daddy! Keep up the good work -- don't let things slide. But don't be surprised of at some point you are faced with a bit of a roller coaster as she struggles to gain trust in your efforts. It seems to be a part of the process for those of us who are going through similar issues.
> 
> Good luck and keep us posted!


It certainly is not a straight road. This morning she was quite short with me because I asked her about something on the calendar for today while she was upstairs. I did not hear her say "hold on" and repeated myself. I was kinda stunned when I went to where she was and asked again and she was all fired up. I just calmly explained myself and went to work. She called me several minutes later and apologized and said other things were stressing her. I played it off like it was no big deal. It stung because I wanted to give her a hug and kiss since she is leaving for a couple of days on business, but I knew I definitely did not want her to leave with anything to grouse about so I played cool as a cucumber.

My big test is meeting her expectations taking care of the house and boys while she is away. They are starting to show signs of a cold so it may not be totally smooth sailing. All the better to prove I am worthy.

Last night she brought me home a bag of candy I mentioned I liked and had not seen in years so I am focusing on that sweet gesture. :awink:


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

daddy of twins said:


> This morning she was quite short with me because I asked her about something on the calendar for today while she was upstairs........
> 
> Last night she brought me home a bag of candy I mentioned I liked and had not seen in years so I am focusing on that sweet gesture. :awink:


Good to here DOT. Keep up the good work. A couple of thoughts though. During this initial period all of her actions are magnified in your eyes. Both the good and the bad. What may seem significant to you is likely nothing other than every day events to her. Don't get overly gleeful nor down on these items, it makes the roller coaster even worse. Continue to be a good father and husband with positive actions and confidence. Don't think of yourself as proving you are "worthy", that still smacks of neediness. Carry yourself with pride and confidence. Your are more than worthy, you are just working at being a better man. Continued good luck to you,


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## Rob774 (Sep 27, 2010)

Atleast it appears your wife is willing to work things out with you. So many times, it appears the wife could care less about improving the situation, because they are so angry and spiteful towards you - they'd rather suffer than to fix the problem. THis will only make you stronger. My wife is a stay at home, reading this makes me realize i should be doing some more things around the house.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Rob774 said:


> My wife is a stay at home, reading this makes me realize i should be doing some more things around the house.


Try to find out what she finds most important from you. My wife ranked doing chores like laundry and dishes as really high - and I have read this is commonly really important to wives. I have also learned that the sound of clanking dishes when putting them in the cupboard was a pet peeve for my wife so I have pretty much taken over unloading the dishwasher. On the other hand, she seems to have no issue with rinsing and putting dishes in the machine and seems to rather do that herself than have me do it. :crazy:

She also has said that it seemed that I thought I could "opt out" of fatherly duties so I am making sure that I am around for homework time, putting them to bed, etc., while being sensitive to clues when I am stepping on her toes. Last night one boy fell out of bed and was coughing and moaning so I went in and put him back in bed twice and offered him some water. Admittedly, in the past I was very resistant to getting out of bed for anything less than an full blown emergency. I am not sure if my wife even knows I did this because later in the night when I was asleep, she got him again and brought him into our bed. 

What I am finding is that if you can get your wife to tell you what to work on, it is way more effective to focus on those things than try to change everything. I am also trying to not bring any attention to my changes. Just do it and don't ask for recognition but if she asks you if you agree that is is tiring and tough, don't be a fool: agree. At 1st I said stuff like, "Oh no, this little extra effort is nothing compared to the relief I feel from seeing you happier. Wrong answer because it conveys that you think the issues that are so important to her are trivial to you. 

I am sure I am putting too much weight on little positives and negatives, but I am venting my thoughts here to avoid advertising my internal roller coaster at home. I appreciate the feedback and support.


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

daddy of twins said:


> if she asks you if you agree that is is tiring and tough, don't be a fool: agree.


LOL I got a little chuckle out of this.:rofl:

Seriously though, glad you now have some general direction and hope things continue to look up for you.


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## Hopeful1 (Aug 31, 2010)

Rob774 said:


> Atleast it appears your wife is willing to work things out with you. So many times, it appears the wife could care less about improving the situation, because they are so angry and spiteful towards you - they'd rather suffer than to fix the problem.


Husbands can be the angry, resentful ones too...It's not always the man who does the hurtful things in the relationship. I'm a woman who's done damage to her marriage and am now in the same boat as Daddy of Twins.. trying to change those things about myself that caused the issues, become a better person and, in the process, hopefully regain the trust and interest of my husband.

You've got lots of support here Daddy... And Amplexor is right -- it has nothing to do with your worth. It's all about becoming a better man. :smthumbup:


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

The time with the Mrs. away went well. No drama, the kiddies were happy, and they even made mommy cards telling her they love her. I took pics and emailed her while away. She told me the house looked great and appreciated that I got another project done that has been put on the back burner for too long. I hope this does some good for her gaining trust in my commitment to the family. 

She asked if I was going to enroll in a program designed to help me explore how my childhood affects my current behavior that was being sold by a councilor we had one conversation with. I wrote her a long email that explains my opinions and where I thought we are in the marriage repair process. I did not feel the need to take the program since I have modeled my life around avoiding some of the issues my father had like working too late, too much discipline, and not enough praise and support of kids. I am waiting to see how she replies to the email. I really am not to keen on wallowing through my childhood and what my parents did wrong. I know they were far from perfect, but I harbor no resentment. I just know I want to do way better.

I spoke to my wife this morning. She read my email and was fine with my choice about the program relating to my youth. She also said that she is enjoying being friends right now. She is just not feeling or interested in anything more right now. Of course this is a mixed message to me. It is certainly way better than her previous feelings of anger toward me, but I am also worried that she may become too accustomed to considering me just a friend. I would really like to hear from a woman that has felt this way about their husband and how it progressed or deteriorated. I am trying to be patient, but the pain is really absorbing me all the time.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

A mixed weekend.

There were some good points including my wife enjoying me making her breakfast on Saturday morning, but there were low points too. We went to a festival on Saturday night with out kids, and she was cranky from the minute we left. I tried to look past her clear tension and bought the kids pumpkins to paint; my wife had said she wanted to get them pumpkins while we were out there. Well, they started painting them and were enjoying that but managed to get paint all over their new clothes. That really set her off. I was clearly not able to win. We spoke a bit in the car and once we got home and it was clear that she is still really angry at me for stuff from before we had our big talk. She asked me to leave her alone for a while (not leave the house) because she felt "smothered." I went into another room without any fuss and began to read a book to try to settle down. She did come in later and apologize for being in a bad mood.
During our talk, I mentioned that I did not see her making the same effort to work toward getting closer that I was making. She said she did not feel she wanted to yet. Then yesterday, she told me to check my email. There were confirmations of orders for two marriage self help books. Her note was that this was the effort she was able to make that day. She also cleaned out a closet. I think this was her sort of mimicking the efforts I have been making to take care of some overdue shores around the house.
This morning she left a little post it note on the door that said to have a good day and "love to all" meaning me and the boys. I hope that our painful conversation may have helped her see that she needs to make some little effort each day to work toward the goal of feeling better about "US."


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

daddy of twins said:


> During our talk, I mentioned that I did not see her making the same effort to work toward getting closer that I was making. She said she did not feel she wanted to yet.


Everyone's input is colored by experience, and what they took away from that experience. I read all of your thread, and here is mine:

I see huge red flags. You are being acknowledged for your efforts by your spouse and by folks here. The fact that you are stepping up is not a bad thing. The issue as I see it is that if you don't also set some firm boundaries, you have handed over all of the control to your spouse to decide what constitutes 'failure'.

More simply, you are trying to hit a moving target - and all she has to do is keep moving it in order to set you up to fail. 

She is going to test how much you will tolerate, how much she can disappoint you, avoid you, or minimize YOUR needs.

You are allowing her to set the threshold for success, where she will 'reward' you with her affection and sex. That is a bad thing. I did that dance. It's bullsh!t. It will actually continue eroding her respect for you. It sets up a very, very, bad dynamic.

You believe that you need to earn intimacy from your wife. That's wrong. You should expect it. Just like she expects you to pull your weight. She wasn't 'hoping' you would do these things - she expected it, and when you didn't do them, she pulled away.

This is going to sound counter-intuitive to you, but _you need to do the same thing_. You need to subtly withdraw from her, while staying on the positive path of being a better father and husband.

Keep delivering on the work you are doing, do what you expect of yourself. As you said, 'work on you'. Work on you is not for her ... it's for you. A natural consequence of being a better man is that you become more attractive. However, looking to your spouse for the measure of that success in the form of praise, acknowledgment, affection and sex is detrimental.

YOU decide if you are doing a good job, instead of hoping that she thinks you are. The difference is subtle but very important. 

She thinks she is entitled to 'go off' on you, have consistently high expectations for performance, and that you suffer the slings and arrows because you earned them, all the while minimizing or rejecting what you want, and what is important to you.

It needs to be balanced. As you are now discovering - it isn't. And it won't be if you remain in the current mode of letting her set the ground rules for success in your marriage.

I'm not suggesting that you demand sex. On the contrary, at this moment that would be counter-productive. But you need to establish and vigorously defend your personal boundaries.

She told you what she needed, and you did it. You should expect the same. Convey to her what you need in 3 sentences or less. Do not get dragged into a debate or discussion about the validity of your needs. State them and be done. If you decide that talking about your needs is a good thing, I guarantee you will not feel good by the end of that conversation.

I'm going to suggest a book that I think you would find interesting and beneficial:

"Hold Onto Your N.U.T.'s" by Wayne Levine


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Deejo said:


> set some firm boundaries, you have handed over all of the control to your spouse to decide what constitutes 'failure'.
> 
> More simply, you are trying to hit a moving target - and all she has to do is keep moving it in order to set you up to fail.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your comments. I have thought about the fact that I am giving her the reigns and rewarding her withdrawing emotionally by giving her all that she asks for plus more. I think our talk on Saturday was in some measure been me starting to show some backbone. I explained how I was damned for doing too little and damned for doing too much now. She agreed that she has to accept that I have changed and she cannot be hurt now that I am doing what she says she needs. I also want to believe that her effort to find some books on healing a relationship, and nice note, and just a few hours ago a nice call, is her accepting that the time has come for her to put in some active effort to make an improvement. Also, when she asked how I felt about the the goal of our reconciliation being friends who live together and raise the kids, I was firm that I thought that was a fine stepping stone toward healing, but it could not be the final goal.

My goal several weeks ago was to get divorce off the table being used as a punishment. She has moved to saying that we are working to fix our marriage and has agreed that we have changed the "trajectory" (her word) of the relationship.

I am also choosing to believe that some of her emotional numbing is due to the huge stress she feels from the predicament of her mom and her fight against cancer and her general battle with anxiety. She did confide in me on the way to the uncomfortable festival that she feels like she has only got 5 more years with her mom, whom she worships. 

I will keep the support in mind, I am proud of the changes I have made for my family and for myself, and I will continue to expect progress while understanding that the road is not without setbacks. I am also optimistic that she will be more open to advice provided by the books SHE has found just as she has become very enthusiastic about exercise when SHE decided to go to the gym after years of me suggesting exercise as a way to lift her mood and energy level.

It all feels like a very narrow road. Be firm that there must be effort on both sides without pushing her away. Take her complaints about how I was not doing enough and use them to be a better man while not becoming a peon. Give her space to find her emotions without motivating her to become independent of me. It feels like I could grenade the marriage with any of a million actions.


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## amI'mgoingCrazy (Oct 11, 2010)

have you ever taken her on one of your trips?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Deejay said:


> Everyone's input is colored by experience, and what they took away from that experience. I read all of your thread, and here is mine:
> 
> I see huge red flags. You are being acknowledged for your efforts by your spouse and by folks here. The fact that you are stepping up is not a bad thing. The issue as I see it is that if you don't also set some firm boundaries, you have handed over all of the control to your spouse to decide what constitutes 'failure'.
> 
> ...


 :iagree: Several good points Deejo. I think it's important that DOT recognizes that her use of the word "smothering" says a lot about the dynamics of the situation. DOT, I've noted in your thread several times that you cannot lose yourself in this situation. You need to remain strong and set your boundaries. Along with Deejo's suggested book, try Dodson's Love Must be Tough. It was a tremendous help to me in regaining some control in the situation and along with that more confidence that I could get us through it.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> :iagree: Several good points Deejo. I think it's important that DOT recognizes that her use of the word "smothering" says a lot about the dynamics of the situation. DOT, I've noted in your thread several times that you cannot lose yourself in this situation. You need to remain strong and set your boundaries. Along with Deejo's suggested book, try Dodson's Love Must be Tough. It was a tremendous help to me in regaining some control in the situation and along with that more confidence that I could get us through it.


What do you mean smothering says a lot? What is is saying? I took it to mean to push less hard and have patience.

Also, I have the belief that her grief over her mom is contributing to our troubles. She is distraught about her health and has no control over that so she is taking it out on me and is feeling some control there. It seems that when she is more upset about her mom, our progress slows or takes steps back. Of course this should provide me some confidence to remain confident in myself and she will come around as she comes to grips with her mothers situation and sees that my changes are not a flash in the pan, but it really makes me feel like I am more out of control to address what is at the root of her emotional troubles.

As for my trips, she used to go before the kids, but goes about once a year now and to be honest is focused on leaving shortly after arriving. I do sympathize with her opinion that taking the boys to these events and watching them while I am largely too busy with my duties to be with them is not very fun or rewarding for her. She has told me that she wants me to go to the next event. She says I need it (as in be yourself and be confident) and she will appreciate the time with the boys without needing to work on our relationship. I am leaning toward going because I think she is trying to be generous in telling me she wants me to do the things I enjoy and it fits in with my efforts to not go from too little family support to too much.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

daddy of twins said:


> What do you mean smothering says a lot? What is is saying? I took it to mean to push less hard and have patience.


That is exactly what she is saying. She is dealing with the marriage issues and her mother's illness. Don't dote on her. Don't fixate on the marriage nor constantly talk about it. 
Certainly be there for her, but don't check the oil every other block. It will just drive her further away.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Exactly.

Be supportive, but firm. It ain't ok for her to take her grief and anger out on you either. Allowing her to do so _encourages her to continue doing so_. You need to establish a baseline of respect. My sense is, she just doesn't have much for you right now. So just rolling over and 'taking it' you may see as noble, but it is actually harmful to you re-establishing a mutually respectful relationship.

Does she struggle with depression? That's a whole other set of issues to contend with.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

On the mom front, I think a great way for you to earn brownie points would be to put some effort into coming up with ways to make this easier on your wife. For instance, if a chance comes up for her and her mom to go away for a weekend, suggest it. If you see a book in the store about 'how to say goodbye' or some such, bring it home to her. Show her that you are VERY aware of the pain she's suffering, and you would like to help ease it. That will go a long way to getting her to love you again.

As for your question for other women who've been in the same boat...wow. Tough question. I've been wanting to leave for a good 10 years; so much negative Love Balance that I doubt I'll ever be 'in love' with him again. He's a terrific person, but as it relates to me...just a jumbled mess and it's ended up scarring my self-esteem and making me wonder why I ever married him.

So...assuming he 'got it' and started making the changes you're now making (which strongly mirror the issues I have with MY husband)...first, if I asked him to attend that program on childhood issues and he said no, it would hurt my feelings. It would tell me that, although I felt that he could benefit from learning more about why he is the way he is, HE is telling me he sees no reason to (or doesn't want to be uncomfortable - thus he does not value ME enough to be uncomfortable to do something that matters to me). I don't know if that's how your story went down, but that was my impression, how I would feel if my husband told me what you told her (and here).

Now, your situation is VERY common - millions of women keep on doing all the hard work, waiting for their husband to get the 'connection' and 'responsibility' aspects of marriage, keep waiting, get disappointed over and over again, and each time, lose a little love for their husband; they put up with it, even say something (only to be ignored, losing more love), until they finally just can't any more. Usually by that time, it's too late to fall in love again - all she can see (despite the work you're doing now) is that you are CAPABLE of NOT doing the work - you are CAPABLE of caring more about yourself than her.

Can she ever forgive that? IDK. Depends on the person, how much the husband is willing to do and for how long; i.e. if you give up in 6 months because you're not getting enough 'love' from her, it will only prove to her that you were just putting on a front and you personally have not changed. Then she will NEVER forgive you. 

She wants you to change because you KNOW you were wrong, not because it gets you something. She wants you to suffer from guilt over how you made her feel, so she'll know you're sincere. She wants to be able to trust in you again.

Even with that, it's no guarantee she can overcome the scarring and love you again. She probably can, if you are sincere enough, but I can't guarantee it. Personally, I WANT to love him again, but at the same time, I feel like I'll be a fool if I do, because I'll keep expecting him to go back to the way he's been the last 30 years.

I think that when she can finally trust you again, you may see it.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Tough love can be ugly. I resorted to something I am not proud of, but the results seem to justify the means.
Last night while I was playing with the kids, my wife was on my computer on her work email. She left the email up when she came back to play with the family. Despite knowing it was an invasion of her privacy, I have had a strong feeling that there was something in her email that I needed to see so I looked through it. I found correspondence with a divorce lawyer and her sister. When she left to go to the gym I looked some more and found a letter to her sister saying that that she had reached her limit, was done, and was going through the motions to let me come to the same conclusion that our marriage was over.
I called her and asked her point blank if we were over. She continued with her story that she did not know, but I kept pressing her. She came home and we talked. I asked her if she had seen a lawyer. She denied it. I kept pressing and finally told her I was certain she had seen a lawyer without telling her how I knew. She finally broke into tears and admitted it. She explained that she went to learn how separation and divorce was done but she did not start any processes. She apologized for not telling me the truth. She lied about what she told her sister until finally admitting to it and explained that that message was after our major talk when she 1st told me about her thoughts of divorce and that she did not feel that way now. 
From there the tone of our talk totally changed. I guess she realized that finding those messages pushed me to the point where I needed to know if it was over or she was in this marriage no matter what it took. Her time to decide had come. I told her that "friends" was not going to happen. I told her that divorced I had every intention of fighting for 50% custody of the twins. She could not expect all she needed from me without meeting my needs which I have spelled out for her. She chose to go all in. 
Since that talk last night, she pressed up against me in bed. She has hugged me several times and kissed me. She just called me to verify that I was not intending to speak to a lawyer. She has told me that she still wants to try counseling and read books on marriage but agreed that we need to find plan that provides concrete exercises to do to strengthen our marriage. She agreed that hashing over our problems was not the way forward.
We both need to work on gaining each others trust, but I am confident that she now sees that I am serious about her putting 100% into healing and I won't settle. I made my nonnegotiable requirements of honesty and effort to meet my needs clear.
I wish it did not take me invading her privacy, but she seems to understand that I felt she was not being honest with me about her position and understands why I had to do it. I want to thank those here that advised me to stand up for myself. The feeling of pushing through my fear of ending our marriage to make her decide was very empowering. I thought I has discovered that it was over and had nothing to loose. It appears I had everything to gain by forcing a decision.
While typing this, she called again to tell me what she what she is doing at work today. It seems clear that she has realized how much she needs me and values me. I know this is a step, not a destination, but it is a far more manageable journey with my hands on the reigns. I know I am being a stronger husband and father and deserve a committed wife.


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## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

marriage is a two way road.....while you took responsibility for your part in the way your marriage was going you never required her to take responsibility for her part.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

AWESOME update! I am so proud of you. I wouldn't beat myself up too much about snooping - you had a sick marriage, and you needed to know what you needed to know, to fix it. Great job!


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> AWESOME update! I am so proud of you. I wouldn't beat myself up too much about snooping - you had a sick marriage, and you needed to know what you needed to know, to fix it. Great job!


Thank you. I felt like slime while peeking because I am usually totally trusting (to a fault). Just the fact that I was not trusting her was what really was so much of a red flag for me.

We have discussed it and it seems that she realizes she can't really hold my breaking the trust against me when she was bold face lying to my face.

The respect she is now giving me is tangible given its absence for so long. The weird part is that I hold no animosity toward her. I realize that we are both slaves to our emotions now more than usual and I do not feel there was any malice. Just desperation. 

Seeing her pour out so much emotion for me and our boys together was medicine for my heart. She revealed that my son's recent frequent requests for "family piles" and announcing his joy at all of us being together as a family on the couch or walking together really weighed on her.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I am very, very, happy for you. That is really good news.

Often, the biggest strides you make will be the most uncomfortable.

Much work left to do however. Would still like to see you pick up the books myself and Amplexor recommended. They will help you, I have no doubt in my mind.

Kudos to both of you.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I am very, very, happy for you. That is really good news.
> 
> Often, the biggest strides you make will be the most uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


We have 3 books inbound. I will not forget the books suggested here, trust me. When we have gotten through these, I will order the ones mentioned. I have found the support and suggestions here more valuable than the counseling we have tried.

We have our work cut out for us for the next 40 years. We both realize that. I doubt either of us will soon forget the cost of neglecting our marriage.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Counseling can't be as unfiltered as we can here.

They are restricted in the information they can provide because they really can't come out and say: "This is how you're screwing up, and this is what you need to do to fix it."

We're happy to oblige in that department.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Last night we went over much of what we spoke about the night before. We needed to see what was still agreed after having some time to mull it over.

The only think that my wife changed her mind on was her email passwords. She told me she changed them. She wants privacy and did not like feeling snooped on.

I appoligized for snooping and said I felt horrible doing it, but I felt that in this case it was for the good of the marriage and it did reveal that she was lying about contacting a lawyer and previously about her intentions to save the marriage. I also said I wanted her to change back the passwords or tell them to me. She bacame irate and called me controlling and manipulative. I told her that we agreed to be open and honest and she told me before that she would not change the passwords. I told her I would not look into her email but she should give me the passwords. It was a matter of building trust. I told her it was important and was willing to work on trust issues with a therapist.

Is my request fair?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This woman just cheated on you. She then proceeded to lie about lawyers and intentions. And now she is trying to make YOU the bad guy. That would so not fly with me. WHAT is she so angrily determined to hide. SHE should want you to have transparency to regain trust. 




daddy of twins said:


> Last night we went over much of what we spoke about the night before. We needed to see what was still agreed after having some time to mull it over.
> 
> The only think that my wife changed her mind on was her email passwords. She told me she changed them. She wants privacy and did not like feeling snooped on.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree. Your request IS fair. Honestly, this would be my hill to die on.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Gotta say, I winced when I read that YOU apologized to her. Dude, you had absolutely nothing to be sorry for.

Honestly? F*ck fair. Fair has nothing to do with the circumstances you are in. Has she been _fair_?

Her freaking out, calling you manipulative and controlling is play-book stuff. She is the one that is trying to manipulate you - but she won't see it that way.

Stay strong, stay firm. Get used to saying 'No.' If you are consistently the one that wants to 'talk' or address the issues - I'm telling you right now; that is still a huge red flag. You are trying to appeal to her emotions and deal with her sensibly and fairly. That WILL NOT work. It is going to need to get uglier before it gets better.

Go do something else, do not consistently make your relationship the focus of all of your interactions with her. It's toxic.

And by all means, stop apologizing. She betrayed and lied to you.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Deejo said:


> Go do something else, do not consistently make your relationship the focus of all of your interactions with her. It's toxic.


:iagree: 100%

Again, if there isn't anything new to discuss, leave it alone. A picked scab never heals.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Whoa! She has not cheated on me to the best of my knowledge. She lied about seeking a lawyer and what she said to her sister when this all started, but I still trust that she has not had an affair.

I have stuck to my guns on the passwords explaining that we need to have trust both directions. 

I will try to avoid talking about our relationship for a time, but I am really angry that it seems that she is back peddling on what she agreed to when I approached her on the email contents.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

daddy of twins said:


> Whoa! She has not cheated on me to the best of my knowledge. She lied about seeking a lawyer and what she said to her sister when this all started, but I still trust that she has not had an affair.


To be clear, my use of 'betrayal' was in reference that she is no longer holding you in confidence. She is and has been actively deceiving you, and undermining your marriage.

You should be angry. But ... tell her once. Don't keep proclaiming it. The math on this is absolutely straightforward, the more you pursue her right now, the more she is going to pull away, claiming you want to control and dictate her actions and feelings. Once again, if you do what you normally do, you are setting up circumstances to fail.

Out of curiosity, what would you be doing differently if you discovered she was having an affair?


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Out of curiosity, what would you be doing differently if you discovered she was having an affair?


I would feel less like the one who caused the damage by not being enough of a father and husband. I think I would have her move out. I thought that could be what I found in her email. For the time I thought that was what the emails I found meant, I was done. Now that she is back peddling, I am not that far from the same feeling, but I am more dejected than angry. She has managed to minimize the value of what she has done and become self righteous about how I invaded her privacy to learn of it and about the fact that I told her about my position about the passwords at 4:00 AM about an hour before she would usually get up.

We are going to a new therapist on Tuesday and I am going to try to just leave the scab alone and be myself as much as I can.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's a mistake. She is betting on getting angry at you so that you will back down and let her keep her secrecy. If you give in to that, she will feel entitled to cheat any time she wants, AND she will lose all respect for you, and decide you DESERVE to be cheated on.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Personally, I believe all the hype on disclosure is BS. It doesn't really matter if she gives you her passwords or not. There can always be another email account, another PC to access it from, another mobile device, a disposable track phone...... I will agree that her resistance to giving them to you could be a red flag, then again, maybe not. She may want to have privacy in her correspondence with her sister. She may need to vent about issues or problems that she is not ready to discuss with you or just needs an outside opinion. Let me ask you this (Forum). Does your spouse know about your activity on TAM? If not, would you be comfortable in giving them your password to review all you written or disclosed here? In most cases I would venture not. This is a place to vent, ask advice, get away from it all or pour our hearts out. Aren't we asking for our own privacy in that? Are we doing anything wrong in communicating in private here? No, on the contrary, we are looking for answers to help us improve our marriage. To be fully honest without fearing, "Oh crap, I can't write that, it'd really piss him/her off". Wanting some privacy does not by virtue negate having trust in your partner.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. This is purely an intimidation move. When you apologized you opened the door wide for this response. In fact you invited this response. 

Given your current situation, she needs to either be "all in" or let you two "part friends" so you can co-parent without a lot of tension. Demanding secrecy is the opposite of being "all in". 





turnera said:


> That's a mistake. She is betting on getting angry at you so that you will back down and let her keep her secrecy. If you give in to that, she will feel entitled to cheat any time she wants, AND she will lose all respect for you, and decide you DESERVE to be cheated on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Personally, I believe all the hype on disclosure is BS. It doesn't really matter if she gives you her passwords or not. There can always be another email account, another PC to access it from, another mobile device, a disposable track phone...... I will agree that her resistance to giving them to you could be a red flag, then again, maybe not. She may want to have privacy in her correspondence with her sister. She may need to vent about issues or problems that she is not ready to discuss with you or just needs an outside opinion. Let me ask you this (Forum). Does your spouse know about your activity on TAM? If not, would you be comfortable in giving them your password to review all you written or disclosed here? In most cases I would venture not. This is a place to vent, ask advice, get away from it all or pour our hearts out. Aren't we asking for our own privacy in that? Are we doing anything wrong in communicating in private here? No, on the contrary, we are looking for answers to help us improve our marriage. To be fully honest without fearing, "Oh crap, I can't write that, it'd really piss him/her off". Wanting some privacy does not by virtue negate having trust in your partner.


He sits next to me when I am on here. I would love for him to read what I write because I don't have the nerve to tell him what I feel.

In OP's case, her refusing is just too damning IMO. If they were fine, I wouldn't care. But coming right off of this incident, it speaks volumes to her desire to be unfaithful at least in thought if not in deed.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

To me, actually having the passwords isn't all that important either. What is telling to me, is that it remains an indicator of how engaged, or disengaged the partner is. My point is, you are nowhere near as close to a resolution as her tears the other night indicated.

Potentially more insidious - and what occurred in my case, is that your spouse will feign being engaged in the hope that you will drop your guard and suspicion.

Your mindset is important. Believe me, I absolutely understand wanting to save your marriage. I did too.

But, you need to know what your threshold is. What is the thing that does or does not happen that makes you decide to leave.

If you want her to unequivocally get the message that you are prepared to leave the marriage - and vigorously defend your own interests in a divorce ... then YOU need to believe that is what you will do.

I'm not suggesting you threaten her or give an ultimatum. I'm suggesting that you need to honestly and realistically take a look at your life - without your wife in it, as part of the effort to keep her.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Last night she stayed up until midnight working. This morning I asked to see her text messages. She showed me that they were all deleted. She claims she never keeps any texts. She then showed me her email that showed that she did send out a project near midnight.

She told me she felt sick from my request. I told her I was fine with her going to stay with her parents. She at first wanted to, but then said she would come home if it was too hard on me. I chuckled and said, "Hard on me?" She said she wanted to come home and go to dinner with me with the kiddies at her moms or I could pick them up and take them to her moms. I said to do whatever she wanted. I went upstairs and kissed my kids goodbye and am now braced for her to either choose me or not.

She says I am trying to control her. I agree with the poster that said she needs to demonstrate she is "All in" or not.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tell her you need to see her phone BEFORE she deletes the texts. Duh!


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

What a roller coaster. Yesterday during the day, she forwarded me a bunch of inconsequential texts she was getting that day. I realized it was a sarcastic response to me request, but did not react with anger. She sent me another message telling my I was bullying her. I then listed all the lies I knew about and explained that she had not treated her privacy well and I was angry about it. Then surprisingly, after a couple more angry messages, she said she had $1200 she would put into counseling. I was surprised because this appeared to be a display of her commitment to work toward fixing things.

When I got home for our planned night alone together, I expected a night where we both tried to avoid confrontation. She sent me a message letting me know she would be late from work. I was pretty much resigned to the idea that she clearly did not give a sh*t and just didn't respond.

But then when she got home she wanted to talk. It was very constructive. She apologized for aggressive texts. She came out and said that her only "affair" is with her work. She has thrown herself into her work to avoid our issues and she is going to work on it. We were able to talk pretty calmly and I think move away from the cliff of immanent separation. Before bed she told me she has an appointment with her psychiatrist. 

To sum up, it appears that she is doing some introspection and seeing that it is time for her to start working. She is seeing I have come as far as I can and if we are ever going to meet, she has to come toward me now. She also spoke to her Mom when arranging to have her watch the kids. Her mom said to avoid leaving for the kids. I was relieved to learn that her parents were not working against me. It sounds like everyone she is talking to is telling her to work it out. Even the lawyer asked what the "dirt" was we had on each other and told her to go to counseling when she had nothing besides dishes, laundry and leaving town one weekend a month.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes it can be quite a ride. Remember it is for her also. My best advice in this situation is to be steady and resolved in your mission. Let her see that you are solid in what you want, stay committed to what ever changes you have made and let her see that. Deal with her in a confident but caring manner so she sees you are in for the long haul and that she can turn to you when she needs to. As for the disclosure, well you know my opinion on that. At this point it looks to be more divisive then helpful. And like I said, if she really is trying to hide things from you this will just drive her underground with it. Work on your trust with her but that comes with a price. Her respecting your boundaries. Good luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

See, what happened was you stood up for yourself. You didn't go down to her level - instead you calmly and logically told her that she has harmed you and you are rightfully upset with her. WSs NEED to hear that or they will never look in the mirror. You did very well.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

She just called me. She started by saying I was going to be mad with her then told me she had to stay late at work on Monday. I replied that I was not upset in the slightest. I am more concerned with her bringing work home and filling our time together with texting and emails. I explained that I consider her eagerness to show initiative to go above and beyond to get ahead at work impressive and I respect her for it. I also told her that I considered her desire to spend some of her time beyond those required for work doing extra projects and handling fires to my desire to take time from the family to do my hobby. Both are challenges that make us proud of our accomplishments. She told me that was fair and thanked me.

She also said that her psychiatrist was impressed with some of the solutions we are developing, stressed that the kids needed BOTH of us in the home living together, and told her that our sexual difficulties are to be discussed with a marriage councilor. Sex is the one topic that she will not speak with me on so I completely agree that we need outside help. I have been very good about not mentioning it at all and certainly not making any moves in many weeks. Only last night did I mention that sex is part of a healthy relationship and she needs to explore what the cause of her lack of desire is - while making sure I was in no way pressuring her to put out.

I am looking forward to a relaxing weekend away to clear my head. I am relieved that we are reaching new solid ground before I go.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Do what you will with the following ... if her need to consistently work late is relatively recent, that goes in the red flag column.

Don't provide an excuse for her, not to me anyway. It isn't necessary. I'm not going to say that your wife is having an affair. I will say that the reason behind the behavior is still avoidance. Just file it away for now.

You guys are taking the right steps, no question there. We would much rather give you a high-five for your efforts at reconciliation, then say "I told you so" if it goes south. 

I hope for the best for your family. Sincerely.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds good. Just know that, if late nights becomes a regular occurrence, it's your JOB to tell her it's too much and you're not happy. Not communicating and not being honest is how couples fall apart in the first place.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

I am not sure what to make of this. Now she seems to be repeatedly asking me if I have contacted a lawyer. I haven't and have told her so and tell her that I have NEVER lied to her.

She also keeps asking if I want to see her phone texts even though she admitted when she sent me the meaningless texts it was a passive aggressive move and apologized. 

Then she said something about having this guilty feeling and not knowing why. I am just going to hold my ground and watch her figure some of this stuff out. If I point it out, it is just something for her to push against. 

I believe she still is harboring some anger, but is finding it hard to release it now that I am being who she has wanted me to be and not asking anything of her. The session tomorrow should be interesting.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Stay 'on plan'. 

For the foreseeable future, what she sees, and how she feels about what you are doing will always outweigh what you 'say' about what you are doing, or not doing.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

I upset her last night by asking about her anxiety medicine and antidepressants. I finally realized that these meds can be part of the issue. She was angry that I researched the chemicals by looking at the labels in her medicine cabinet. I regret doing it that way because she saw it as an invasion of privacy. But after talking for a while she told me she wants to "go back in time" two months. We have agreed to try to consider the things we have done to each other during this row like a bad nightmare. Both of us regret our current painful interaction and intend to reset on a fresh footing. She sent me a funny text asking me if I would be confused about Halloween in August.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Huh? Knowing what meds your spouse is on is an invasion of privacy? Give me a break.

Did we ever recommend you do the Love Buster questionnaire?


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

My wife now can't eat. She tries to eat a tiny bit, but then says the food sits in her stomach like a rock. Sometimes she vomits to feel better.

I am so worried for her. It has been about a week since she has been able to hold down any quantity of food and she is loosing weight at an alarming rate.

Her mom, who she is very close to, is fighting breast cancer and my wife has told me she is convinced she has less than 5 years to live.

Between the stress about her mom, our marriage and family, and her career, and now not eating, I am worried she is about to fall apart. I know she is taking antidepressants and anti anxiety pills. I am at the point where I am more concerned about her immediate health than anything else.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you called her doctor? It sounds like she may need to go into the hospital for a week or two and get some heavy duty therapy.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> Have you called her doctor? It sounds like she may need to go into the hospital for a week or two and get some heavy duty therapy.


She called me at lunch and it was an interesting conversation. She was sympathetic to my pain because I had a wisdom tooth pulled today. She told me about some strong pain killers she has in her medicine cabinet. I asked if I was _allowed_ to go in her medicine cabinet. She skipped a beat and said it was fine.
Then she said, "don't feel bad, I am out looking for something to eat that is appealing. I can't eat at work either." I asked if she was saying that her stress induced nausea was not related to our issues and she said that it was and that while I was doing nothing wrong, she was getting butterflies just talking to me. She said we need to find out what is causing it.

I am taking this as she consciously wants to be nice and sweet, but still has some anxiety and she is telling me she does not understand it. I believe that she is still picturing our ugly conversations and needs to begin to get used to the idea that we are both learning to communicate in less confrontational ways. I am choosing to file this in the positive direction file along with no more mention of divorse, telling me she will always love me, allowing me to cuddle, planning time together, working on limiting her time at work, reading solution oriented marriage books, and not becoming combative during relationship conversations.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That all sounds fine, but it makes no difference if she collapses from malnutrition.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> That all sounds fine, but it makes no difference if she collapses from malnutrition.


Well, it makes no difference anyway. She explained last night at therapy that she wants me to sleep in another room. Essentially we are now seperated in the same house. Our interaction will be soley for the raising of our children. Her stomach issues were related to her stress of knowing how I would be hurt by what she wants. I am now sleeping on a pull out bed in the play room. So now the task to remain civil to do the best we can for our children.

She says she wants to try it for a week, but I know better. The next step will be to move the kids to the play room and convert their bedroom to my bedroom. She confirmed that she cannot picture us happily married way off in the future. Now nor can I.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Now she is buying me a bed to go in my office. This ain't getting better any time soon.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

DO NOT move out of your bedroom. Don't even entertain the conversation.

If she wants to buy a bed, and put in the friggin basement, tell her shes' welcome to it. Don't let her put a bed for _you_ in _your_ office either. Stand your ground on this like a rabid pit-bull. STAY IN YOUR BEDROOM. 

If she wants to sleep elsewhere, tell her that's her choice, but if you think for one minute that letting her kick you out of your bed is a path to make things better between you, then your thinking is seriously flawed. If your therapist thinks this is something you should roll with - fire them on the spot.

I'm going to try and be as delicate about this as my blood pressure will let me; don't let your mentally ill wife dictate the course of your marriage - that would make you equally if not more mentally ill.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree. Why do you have to agree to what she wants? SHE wants change, YOU do not, so let HER change. Give HER the bed in the office. Come on, the more you give in, the less she respects OR likes you, and the quicker she'll want you gone. 

She NEEDS you to stand up and be a man about this.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

I simply don't want her to leave and take the kids. I admit it. If I refuse to take the office, I am afraid she will head off to her parents with the kids. Her friends and parents are telling me to just give her space. At least this way I am in the house with my kids. I have not reached the point where I am willing to take a stand that would probably result in me being separated. My current plan is to get her to agree to seeing her psych with me to discuss the side effects of her meds on the ability to love and be in a relationship.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

daddy of twins said:


> I have not reached the point where I am willing to take a stand that would probably result in me being separated.


Actually, you have. You just aren't aware of it. Giving her space makes her ability to separate from you easier. She is prepared to fight to chase you off, and your belief is that fighting to stay still means you lose. 



> My current plan is to get her to agree to seeing her psych with me to discuss the side effects of her meds on the ability to love and be in a relationship.


You're letting her drive this thing, and all you can do is react to whatever feeling or behavior she has on any given day. This does not end well if you keep making decisions based on fear.

I'm not telling you to pick a fight for no good reason or to prove a point. I've seen what you are doing. I did what you are doing. You have nothing to lose by showing her you aren't going to simply roll with all of this insanity. If you do? It's a virtual lock that everything you are convinced you're trying to avoid will come to pass.

You are way beyond, 'just give her some space' and hope she decides to be nice.

I wish you well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You are trying to control her.

You can't.

The more you give in to try to control her, the more she ABUSES you. Look at you now. You've given in so much in your fear that she now can control where and how you sleep. She's even buying you a bed to get you out of her hair! Do you realize how pathetic that makes you look?

The instant you got her pregnant the first time, you lost control. You NEVER HAD IT.

By the time she's finished, you WILL be sleeping in the basement or the garage, because she's grown tired of having this cringing little man around who just annoys her, and she'll start having her men sleep over, heck, they'll just move IN, while you continue to live on premises - just so you can see your kids?

Come on, think about it...


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Actually, you have. You just aren't aware of it. Giving her space makes her ability to separate from you easier. She is prepared to fight to chase you off, and your belief is that fighting to stay still means you lose.


I do appreciate your thoughts.

As it is right now, she does not want to leave or for me to leave. She does not want to go to her parents house (her mother is about to start chemotherapy) and realizes the financial strain of moving somewhere else. She also needs me to help with the kids for the sake of her career. I think she also knows that her mom and friend will not support her decision to leave and not try to make this work.

Clearly I am trying to be a good supportive husband and am having difficulty making her go sleep elsewhere, but I guess I need to wrap my mind around the fact that I am not making her go sleep elsewhere in the house. She is making that decision.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And fwiw, you have JUST as much right for the kids to live with YOU as she does to have them with her. If I were you, I'd be at the lawyer's today, finding out what your rights are in terms of her TAKING YOUR CHILDREN FROM YOU - and then lay it out on the line for her - you will NOT take my kids, you CAN move if you're so unhappy, but I will NOT be separated from my children NOR my bedroom.

Until you're ready to act like a man about this, you'll continue to lose more and more ground. And she'll continue to despise you more and more.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

daddy of twins said:


> I need to wrap my mind around the fact that I am not making her go sleep elsewhere in the house. She is making that decision.


Exactly. SHE is the unhappy one - let HER change.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

daddy of twins said:


> Clearly I am trying to be a good supportive husband and am having difficulty making her go sleep elsewhere, but I guess I need to wrap my mind around the fact that I am not making her go sleep elsewhere in the house. She is making that decision.


Exactly. These are the little realizations that can make all of the difference in how this plays out. 

This stuff gets echoed around here all of the time. The one thing you have control over in this madness, is yourself. As Turnera said, you can't _make_ her do a damn thing. But you have complete control over _how you choose to respond_ to her behavior, requests, or ultimatums. Just rolling over wins you absolutely nothing.

Don't try to _convince_ her of anything. Stop. Just start doing what you need for you and if she pushes that boundary, put the fear of God on her. I'm not joking. 

You want to maintain and preserve your marriage. You are not the one looking to ditch it. _That is why you stay in the bedroom._ If she wants to sleep on the couch, let her. If she pitches a fit - and she probably will, stay calm and firm. There are some things you simply should not discuss, and certainly shouldn't fight about. Just do it, and let her do whatever it is she thinks she needs to do.

Be more proactive, and less reactive. And maybe you should think long and hard about making it clear what you WILL do if she tries to leave with the children. She is simply counting on you backing down - because that is the message you taught her to believe.

Change it.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

I told her I was going to sleep in our bed. After much anger and some time, she agreed to sleep in the bedroom on an inflatable mattress. But I do not feel any victory. She also wants to generate an agreement for parenting roles and expectations for each other. It feels like an inhouse separation agreement to me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You REALLY need to go see an attorney.

You think holding off can patch things up. I'm telling you by beating her to the punch you may very well shock her into seeing that you are serious as a heart attack that if this is what she wants, you will protect your own interests, and the interests of your children.

Believe me, I understand your thinking. What I'm trying to convey is that by being confrontational instead of appeasing, that at worst, you get the exact same outcome that you are moving towards anyway. At best, making it clear that she has a 'fight' on her hands may make her rethink that all of this emotional bullsh!t is a good idea. She believes that the upside of dumping you is more appealing than putting up with you. It's your job to make her see that isn't nearly the case.

Get pissed at her. Stay pissed at her. But do so calmly and rationally. Stop dealing with her like she knows best. It is painfully clear that she doesn't.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good for you!


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

We are where she wants to be now. She is on her own little bed in the same room and she has told everyone that we are "separated living together." Now that we have hit this point, she appears much more at ease, is eating, and sleeping fine and is even pleasant to be around usually. This is certainly not the solution I want, but I am still relieved to see her healthier and happier.

I am slowly getting more at ease that she is not looking for a divorce or to separate for real by moving out, but am not there yet. I am also not convinced that there is not something going on at her work. She is so protective of her phone that she must be hiding something even if it is just an emotional relationship with her boss. I just need to come to grips with the fact that it no longer matters. If she is not in love with me or interested in fixing the marriage, what she is interested in right now is of little consequence since I cannot change it.

I know I look like a wimp being walked on, but this is certainly not an easy route. This is the best solution for the kids given that she is not interested in fixing the marriage right now. Boiling it down to the simplest terms, I am giving up affection in hopes of regaining a friend, keeping my house, and keeping my kids. I've read on here countless times that love is your actions and I love my family enough to suffer the pain of this situation for the good of my kids and their mother.

I am also trying to understand her perspective. Over the years of her marriage, she has changed. She has become focused on her career and our kids. She has become less social. She has only one close friend of her own outside her work. I on the other hand am much more similar to who I was when we married. I have the same hobbies and lots of friends whom I can socialize with. She is not interested in these hobbies or friends. The effort of trying to be my wife despite only sharing the interest of raising our kids and providing a loving home for them has not been rewarding for her. I can't blame her for that nor myself. I do still have hope that she can become my friend by seeing that I respect her needs, am strong enough to be a good father and continue to provide for the family. Maybe without the resentment of being the loving wife she does not feel like being she can grow to love me again as we share the enjoyment of raising our amazing boys. Despite everything, we both agree that they are more important than anything.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't think it's hopeless for you two to reconnect. You're in almost the best scenario possible - still in the home, and in the bedroom. Your job now is to get to KNOW your wife, what she likes and dislikes, and work hard to become THAT man, the one who can provide it, and still let her have her life. It may take some time, but that's what you've got, right?

Have we suggested yet Affaircare's questionnaires from affaircare.com? You can work your way up to asking her to fill them out so you know her better, or you can take the individual questions and just pepper them into your conversations, and then go back and fill in the answers as you get them. It's like a blueprint to making her happy.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

turnera said:


> It's like a blueprint to making her happy.


I know she wants: privacy, support with the kids, support around the house, and friendship including listening to her and what is on her mind. I am on it.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Seperation agreement signed. She moves out a couple of days after Thanksgiving. She has an apartment close by and we agreed on mutually agreeable terms for equity in the house, other financial arrangements and visitation for our sons. She told me this is really what she wanted from the time she told me but just needed to convince herself of it and that is what the therapy session were in her mind. I am coming to grips with it. Reflecting on all of her recent lies, evidence, and determination to leave makes trying to keep her in the house feel futile. Things certainly could be worse if she tried to take the house and we could not coordinate so well regarding our sons. As long as I am not attempting to get her to stay, she is very pleasant and compasionate.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Keep taking the steps necessary to care for yourself. Whether it be therapy, posting here, or joining a gym and sweating it out.

You will get through this, and you will learn a great deal in the process.

I do sincerely wish you well.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks you two.

I protected myself by keeping the house and getting her to agree to attainable terms to buy her out of the house. We are fousing on supporting the kids through this as much as humanly possible. Beyond that, I spent lots of time playing with the boys this weekend while she worked on her apartment, then I played on a skidpad with my friends on Saturday and went duck hunting and fishing on Monday. Now that the struggle to keep her from leaving is largely over (I will do everything I can to cooperate with her parenting the boys and help her move) I am finding the desire follow my usual interests returning. Selling this to the kids and getting throught her move will be tough, but I am up to it. After that, I am looking forward to having a welcoming house for visitors again.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I hate reading this stuff. I am already depressed about my own situation and it seems like so many people are going through similar things. 

Daddy of Twins you sound like a great guy and you are doing the right things. Stay close to your kids. Look after yourself.

I fear I will be going through the same thing as you have in the next few months. I am tired of feeling sick in my stomach all the time. 

I think you got great advice on here. I also made the mistake of giving too much power to my wife, thinking I was being nice.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> I hate reading this stuff. I am already depressed about my own situation and it seems like so many people are going through similar things.
> 
> Daddy of Twins you sound like a great guy and you are doing the right things. Stay close to your kids. Look after yourself.
> 
> ...


I am sorry to read that you are in a similar boat. All I can say is if she offers a seperation agreement, you may want to accept it. I have heard from quite a few people that the 1st offer is the best because it may be influenced by guilt and delaying in the hopes of reconciliation can be costly. Refusing to agree to the seperation does not seem to help anything and may allow for resentment to build. 

As for the emotional pain, I sympathize. I have never had anxiety even close to this. I have never failed to sleep through the night for more than a day or two at a time, and now I have not slept past about 4:15 in several months and have not slept past 3:00 many times. Luckily, I am past the stomach issue part and am regaining some of the 20 lbs I lost. Good luck Sam. I hope your result does not match mine. Focus on anything positive you can to help get you through. For me, playing with my kids is the one thing that gives me some relief for a period of time. God I hope they take this change in stride!


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Good riddance to her.

She's obviously been having not just an emotional, but a physical, affair with her boss.

That's pretty obvious.


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

For once, I agree with Marco haha  I mean seriously! She lied to you, treated you like dirt, disrespected you, insulted you, neglected you emotionally and physically... YOU DESERVE WAY BETTER. 

Don't "hope" your kids handle it well. That's frankly a pathetic attitude to have. THEY deserve better from you as a father. MAKE SURE they take it well. This is absolutely something within your power. If you learned anything from this, it should be that you DO have the power to control your situation and shouldn't be looking to others to set the expectation for you. Set it for yourself. I apologize if this seemed harsh; you seem to be doing a great job with the kids so keep up the good work! I wish you the best of luck moving forward.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

*Kids*

The twins have been amazing. They are taking it all in stride. I am stunned that there really have been no questions about the whys and things like that. They are not having any difficulty at school or at either home.

Me, I am up and down. When I see her I have trouble even making eye contact. I believe my overwhelming emotion is resentment for breaking our family and life we built.

I feel that my next step in feeling better is finding a new woman. I know it is soon, but how long should one wait in purgatory?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: Kids*



daddy of twins said:


> The twins have been amazing. They are taking it all in stride. I am stunned that there really have been no questions about the whys and things like that. They are not having any difficulty at school or at either home.
> 
> Me, I am up and down. When I see her I have trouble even making eye contact. I believe my overwhelming emotion is resentment for breaking our family and life we built.
> 
> I feel that my next step in feeling better is finding a new woman. I know it is soon, but how long should one wait in purgatory?


Until you are ok with yourself.

That's a bit more difficult than it may first seem


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Long enough that you don't ask yourself if it's too soon.


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## Tiredspouse0297 (Dec 9, 2010)

Reading this story brings back my guilt from my divorce. I hope your wife didn't have an affair. I didn't either but I know my leaving broke my ex-husband and I still feel horrible about it to this day. I've been on both sides, leaving and being left and I don't think it matters if you are totally happy in the situation or not. When you're left it takes all the control away and the pain is excruciating. Just know that your wife probably has a lot of pain as well, stemming from causing you and the children pain. I watched me ex lose almost 40lbs over two months. It killed me but I couldn't make myself go back. He's recovered and has been happily driving me nuts for seven years.  Hang in there.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

It is a roller coaster. Yesterday she brought the kids to my neighbors house to play. The kids all started acting up so the ex asked me if she could bring them to my house until I came home - I have not asked for her keys yet. I said it was OK, but it struck me how weird I felt allowing her in the house without me. So much trust has been crushed that I felt uneasy. It is amazing how far one can travel emotionally in such a short period of time. When I got home, I could not wait for her to leave, although I remained polite and simply discussed parental stuff. Tiny details like smelling vanilla perfume that she has not worn in years set off emotions of anger inside. I immediately assumed she was heading out to see someone else after dropping off the kids. She is free to do so now, but it still smarts.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You certainly don't need to be accommodating under the circumstances.

Boundaries. Have them. Enforce them. If it pi$$es her off? Tough luck.
She earned it.

You owe it to your kids to be civil, being civil does not mean being nice or doing her any favors, particularly if such favors are to facilitate her pursuing an affair.

I'm glad you're angry ... and sorry for your circumstances. The roller coaster will continue for quite some time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ask yourself this: she is choosing OM over you - do you look attractive by being available to her or making YOUR house available to her? She wants single; give her single.


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## Tiredspouse0297 (Dec 9, 2010)

It sucks, it will hurt for a long time but at least it will lessen over time. I know my ex and I still hurt each other in certain ways. It hurt him when I remarried, it hurt me when he began dating someone who was disrespectful. Overall we are a parenting team and we've gotten better at it over the last seven years. Just try and focus on making yourself the best dad and man you can be.


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## Tiredspouse0297 (Dec 9, 2010)

Deejo said:


> You certainly don't need to be accommodating under the circumstances.
> 
> Boundaries. Have them. Enforce them. If it pi$$es her off? Tough luck.
> She earned it.
> ...


How did she earn it? By being unhappy in her marriage? He has no proof she had an affair and the marriage is over anyway. Nothing can be gained by being nasty, angry, bitter and vengeful. No, he shouldn't let her walk on him or vice versa. It's ok to be angry and hurt but encouraging him to be mean to the mother of his children isn't going to help anyone.


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## daddy of twins (Sep 30, 2010)

I think the only thing I have not taken a stand on now is asking for her keys to the house. On one side I feel that if she is not giving me keys to her apartment, she should not have keys to my house. On the other, I want my house to always be available to my kids. I want it to feel like their true home even if they are not there the majority of the time. The fact that either parent can let them in there makes me feel like I am letting them know that they are always welcome there. I guess I also like projecting the consistant message that one does not require privacy when they have nothing to hide.


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## gregj123 (Dec 29, 2010)

Excactly


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

DOT.....Realize this....There is a third party. No other explanation. I am going through counseling right now and we are "friends and coparents". We are starting to emotionally reconnect and it takes TIME. However, this TIME will not happen if there is a third party involved. It takes 6 months of counseling to start to see an emotional connection return. FACT.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> It takes 6 months of counseling to start to see an emotional connection return. FACT.


Really?

Why is 6 months a significant amount of time?

H and I have been in counseling for 4 months and it has been a ROLLER COASTER.

If you don't mind, please elaborate on this...?


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

And it will continue to be a roller coaster. I am speaking to when you start to have an emotional connection return. If both parties are committed to it, you should start to see the emotional connection return at 6 months. However, everyone is different. Some spouses don't really reinvest for 3-4 months into counseling once they are sure their spouse has "changed". My wife is still not sure I have changed, therefore, we are still "friends and coparents". However, we spend every night together now and life is becoming fun again. She dropped the "detached" bomb on me on Sept. 29th. We JUST now started to be able to enjoy each others company a couple of weeks ago.

My wife is starting, finally, to realize her contributions to the condition of our marriage. I realized mine immediately, therefore, I am way ahead of her in development of myself. She is just starting. We have at least another 6 months before we can really become close with full trust.


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