# Been In R for 18 mo, Now thinking Divorce



## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

We have both worked hard in MC for the last 18 months. Initially even though it was hard, we made progress. Lately ( last 3-4 months) seems flat. Now I am thinking I should consider a divorce more closely. 3 kids and lots of extended family . No one knows about his A. They will be TOTALLY shocked(including him!) and devistated as I am. We are all pretty close. I hate to bring this pain into everyones lives, but I'm not sure that I want to stay in this relationship long term.

Has anyone else given their all to R but then came out getting the D in the end??


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

still so sad said:


> We have both worked hard in MC for the last 18 months. Initially even though it was hard, we made progress. Lately ( last 3-4 months) seems flat. Now I am thinking I should consider a divorce more closely. 3 kids and lots of extended family . No one knows about his A. They will be TOTALLY shocked(including him!) and devistated as I am. We are all pretty close. I hate to bring this pain into everyones lives, but I'm not sure that I want to stay in this relationship long term.
> 
> Has anyone else given their all to R but then came out getting the D in the end??


Yeah, that was me. I tried and tried and in the end she continued her betrayals.

But here's the thing. 

It isn't about him, or his family or the kids... at this point- it's about you.

The happier and emotionally healthier you are, the better for all concerned. 

If this isn't working, then divorce. I know it's a very hard decision to make but I have yet to have anyone say what a mistake the divorce was years later. 

Time to get yourself back on track for a happier life. 

And as far as him being exposed for his betrayal, so what? It was his choice and we all have to accept the consequences for our actions.

Be strong for yourself- and your kids.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

still so sad said:


> Has anyone else given their all to R but then came out getting the D in the end??


Yup. Me too.

Tried for 7-8 months after she finally admitted to a PA after being seperated for 5 weeks due to me discovering the EA.

A couple more big lies were discovered 4 months into the R including an EA with a former best friend.

I am now re-married, and enjoying the fresh start. I had to go through the extended family stuff too. I still love and care for my former in-laws. My 2 BILs and their wives are like my own brothers and sisters. Their children were very close to me too. We still talk some, and FB a little. It is hard because they are my exWW's support system. I try to give them a little space.

It is ok. You will find it is ok too. I would guess some parts of the family may opt out of being your friend, but that won't be the end of the world.

He can own his bad choices. I wouldn't feel too bad. At this point simply tell them when asked that he cheated, and you are too hurt to continue. The details probably won't matter to most of them.

I would attempt to settle through mediation. It saved me a ton of money on lawyers. You be the judge of how fair he is during the process. If it smells unfair, get help!

Work on a support system for your lonely spells, and basic necessities.

Move ahead with your life. Don't be stuck in the past. I would suggest finding new adventures, friends, and hobbies. It actually is fun, if you do it right.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I'm over 4 years out and it is still at least once a week I seriously contemplate it.

I know a lot of it has to do with that second year. You are past the 'what the hell happened' and onto the 'who is this person really?' phases and the “what do I want out of life and my relationships”. Her adultery removed the 'blinder' of the ideals of marriage; like I should 'tolerate' this because that's what a good husband would do. Sometimes, that clarity will leave you with the conclusion that you can’t foresee a future with a person like she has become. Even if she is working on herself, it’s not enough to overcome the damage. Your relationship basically hit a plateau short of where you think a marriage should be much less ever reach. 

I’m sure it’s hard. I’ve struggled very hard holding onto a belief in my wife and maintaining hope. When I decide I’m tired of waiting for the marriage I want, I’ll file knowing I gave it my all. No guilt or remorse. I did what I believed I should and now that position has changed. 

Don’t feel bad about it.


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## FLGator (Mar 26, 2013)

Leaving would break most men though. Three kids? Hell, I would never get custody even though I am the only breadwinner. I would be taking home about $200 a week. 

Really sucks when you have so much and don't want to give it away. If I could have my kids. I would be gone.


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## southernsurf (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm a 1 and done guy, thought about staying for 3 mos then said no. Me, went to med school (that really pissed her off) M now 26 yrs very happy. She had to settle and it hasn't worked, currently 3 Ds. Oh well she felt my pain, karma works!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I would be done... That's just me.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

1. Cheaters stay in a relationship/marriage only if there are not enough suitable outside options.

2. To be honest in a relationship you need empathy. Cheaters don't have it. Empathy is not something that suddenly grows inside of you when a divine light shines upon you.

3. Happiness is a cheating spouse on the rearview mirror. A cheater is not a decent person's time and effort. Why do you want to stay with him? Why is he such a catch? Why is your worth so low?

4. File for divorce. Start IC asap with a therapist experienced in infidelity related matters.

5. Protect yourself financially.

6. You have enough self-esteem not to tolerate cheating. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

7. You deserve better and you can get better. You deserve to live free, free from the fear of being cheated on and free from a life of constant fear.

8. Your children need a role model, someone who will teach them acceptable behavior and boundaries. If you forgive and accept your WS's behavior, you will set up very bad examples for your children, and this will lead to further heartaches. 

9. You are responsible for your happiness. Never in future tie your own happiness with someone or something. It will lead to pain and sufferings. Happiness has to come from within.

10. Embrace the light, knowledge, and freedom. It will get better if you want to get it better.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I gave my all to R but ended up divorcing my wife more or less as a line in the sand as much as anything; she didn't stop trickle truthing ever and would still try to blameshift - it was one last blameshift too far that caused me to divorce her.

We are still together, however, and she is working kind of hard in the ways she knows how. 

My point is, divorce isn't necessarily the end and reconciliation is a long, hard slog.

Having said that, as a man, I am staying becuase the kids would end up with her.

You should let his family know what is happening in your relationship. Your life has been devastated by his actions - not yours. You would not be bringing pain into other's lives - he already did that.

Telling others mean they can support you (and him to an extent).


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

I have been there and had the "is this shizzle really worth the effort, pain and anxiety?" and for me now I can honestly say "I don't know and don't care".

You need to become happy inside, you have to work on being who you want to be, maybe a separation with boundaries would be better to begin with and see how it works for you? If you have the right tech in place to tab him whilst separated then you will know for sure of his intentions for a future infidelity free marriage.

There are no right or wrong answers in this quest but you have to decide what you want from life and if staying with him is really worth the slog everyday?

What has he done to reassure you of his intentions so far?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I read all your threads and it seems to me that you have not gotten over the pain. In some ways it seems like your husband is not doing enough. You say he will be totally shocked. Why? Is it that you are not sharing your thoughts and emotions with him? We all get the pain. We all understand trust and those of us that are going through R understand how difficult it is. Maybe you are far enough removed from d-day that you have some better clarity. You have gone this far, I would lay out my cards in the next MC session. You have every right to D him. But there is something wrong here. What is going on for you to be thinking about D? What is it that your husband is not giving you so you can move forward? Again, you have every legitimate right to D him, but can you identify what is lacking? Or do you feel as if he is cheating again?


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## 2yearsago (Jun 28, 2013)

I feel like I am as close to D as I have ever been. My WW's EA was 2 years ago. In many ways I am over it even though there was not much remorse. I've worked on myself a ton this year and made a lot of progress. I feel like I am good with myself and happy in just about every aspect of my life....except my marriage.

We started MC a couple of months ago because I set the boundry of we are gonna try to rebuild the marriage or I am calling a lawyer. Well we have our 8th session today and while the sessions have been open, honest, and good while we are there I don't see anything different outside of them.

I see my W kind of detached from all the hurt I felt previously. My working on myself and looking at our marriage has made me realize more fully how there were a lot of things I have been missing and it isn't from lack of effort on my end. Truthfully I get tired of thinking about it. I feel close to moving on.

Good luck.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I told my husband I wanted a divorce two and a half years after I thought we originally entered R. 

I thought we were working on recovering a basically sound, though far from ideal, marriage after my husband's intense EA. As it turned out, however, my WH had never been faithful. 

2 years into False R, the trickle truth of reality began. First there was the tearful confession of sexting with a co-worker. Then there was the tearful confession of a single ONS during the same time period as the EA. Over the following weeks there were confessions of having "talked to" a handful of other women. Finally, in the face of a looming polygraph, he confessed to having had a ONS 10 years ago and another when we'd been married less than 2 years. There might have been more, probably were, but I stopped him at that point. I just didn't need to know anymore. I realized that our entire marriage had been a total sham. 

Attempting recovery after an affair is hard enough. But I wasn't prepared to put more effort into a marriage that had actually been over, though I didn't know it, for 15 years. Serial cheating was a lifestyle choice for my husband. One he didn't really want to give up and wasn't in the end all that apologetic about. And yes, my husband was shocked and has been an emotional basketcase ever since. Apparently, having his fun required the presence of a wife at home to see to all the mundane details of real life, and he's missing that now that he has to do is own laundry and come home to an empty house at night. 

Poor baby.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

What about Reconcilation with the WS AFTER a Divorce?

What are the chances and success rate?


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> What about Reconcilation with the WS AFTER a Divorce?
> 
> What are the chances and success rate?


I think that would actually be the BEST type of R. Maybe that is why I tend to steer BSs in the direction of a D.

It seems that it happens, but most of the time a BS will find better options.

My personal take is no way. Too much hair of that dog! Lol!


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

still so sad said:


> We have both worked hard in MC for the last 18 months. Initially even though it was hard, we made progress. Lately ( last 3-4 months) seems flat. Now I am thinking I should consider a divorce more closely. 3 kids and lots of extended family . No one knows about his A. They will be TOTALLY shocked(including him!) and devistated as I am. We are all pretty close. I hate to bring this pain into everyones lives, but I'm not sure that I want to stay in this relationship long term.
> 
> Has anyone else given their all to R but then came out getting the D in the end??


Not sure how you did it for this long without exposure... I found the exposure is a big part of my R for a few reasons.

Not wanting to lie or hide the A... didn't want to be a party to that. No help from me protecting a phoney persona with deceit. 

Support from family and friends, and to be able to control the narrative.

Damage control, to fix any negative things said about me to family to help justify the poor behavior and actions. 

I'm only about six months in, but those are my thoughts and feelings. My best to you in whatever you decide.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

still so sad said:


> We have both worked hard in MC for the last 18 months. Initially even though it was hard, we made progress. Lately ( last 3-4 months) seems flat. Now I am thinking I should consider a divorce more closely. 3 kids and lots of extended family . No one knows about his A. They will be TOTALLY shocked(including him!) and devistated as I am. We are all pretty close. I hate to bring this pain into everyones lives, but I'm not sure that I want to stay in this relationship long term.
> 
> Has anyone else given their all to R but then came out getting the D in the end??


Why is recovery not working?

What have you done to recover?

What has your MC done?


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## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

Thornburn, I think you are on to something.
I have thought about what is missing. I think I need a few things:
1. Reassurance that it is "safe" to put my whole heart back in to a relationship with him and not have it be stabbed to death again.
2. Although he does acknowledge that the reasons for having the A are totally on him, he doesn't seem to want to look deeper into the "whys" of what made him turn on me . I can't tell if he truly doesn't know or is too afraid to take an honest look at himself and find the "whys". When that topic comes up I get a lot of general answers like " We werent talking" " I thought you didnt love me anymore" or the cowardly escape clause of " I really just dont know" .
We had a very long and very calm talk last night. I was able to ask more questions on details that I had not gotten before as he has been trickle truthing all along. He was surprisingly forthcoming. We talked a lot about her, about the patterns of their relationship ( it was long distance most of the time. He traveled for work and saw her in another city. However, I discovered the A after we were transferred to that city) 

I am broken hearted, no question. I have put all of my energy into this R . Now I feel at a crossroads as to which path to take, continue the R and keep pushing him to face whatever demons he has buried or just D and restart my life. We have kids who love him dearly. I want to right by them too.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

still so sad said:


> Thornburn, I think you are on to something.
> I have thought about what is missing. I think I need a few things:
> 1. Reassurance that it is "safe" to put my whole heart back in to a relationship with him and not have it be stabbed to death again.
> 2. Although he does acknowledge that the reasons for having the A are totally on him, he doesn't seem to want to look deeper into the "whys" of what made him turn on me . I can't tell if he truly doesn't know or is too afraid to take an honest look at himself and find the "whys". When that topic comes up I get a lot of general answers like " We werent talking" " I thought you didnt love me anymore" or the cowardly escape clause of " I really just dont know" .
> ...


I liked this post because it sumarizes what most of us feel at some point. I don't like that you are feeling this bad place. Limbo sucks.

The "why" is a torment. Why is not something that most of us will ever get or understand. It is because they were selfish.

It is your choice to R or D. It also seems to me that you have given R a good shot, and it might be in YOUR best interest to move in a new direction. 

D is tough, but it feels new, and more productive in some ways.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

still so sad said:


> Thornburn, I think you are on to something.
> I have thought about what is missing. I think I need a few things:
> 1. Reassurance that it is "safe" to put my whole heart back in to a relationship with him and not have it be stabbed to death again.
> 2. Although he does acknowledge that the reasons for having the A are totally on him, he doesn't seem to want to look deeper into the "whys" of what made him turn on me . I can't tell if he truly doesn't know or is too afraid to take an honest look at himself and find the "whys". When that topic comes up If get a lot of general answers like " We werent talking" " I thought you didnt love me anymore" or the cowardly escape clause of " I really just dont know" .
> ...


So no exposure. AND you don't have the whole story, you've been trickle truthed, this is a huge problem to your R.. You need to know what you are forgiving and any new info sets the entire process back.. Lies by omission is still deceitful and not acceptable IMO for R to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

still so sad said:


> Thornburn, I think you are on to something.
> I have thought about what is missing. I think I need a few things:
> 1. Reassurance that it is "safe" to put my whole heart back in to a relationship with him and not have it be stabbed to death again.
> 2. Although he does acknowledge that the reasons for having the A are totally on him, he doesn't seem to want to look deeper into the "whys" of what made him turn on me . I can't tell if he truly doesn't know or is too afraid to take an honest look at himself and find the "whys". When that topic comes up I get a lot of general answers like " We werent talking" " I thought you didnt love me anymore" or the cowardly escape clause of " I really just dont know" .
> ...


Dear sss,

I agree with Thornburn that something is amiss here.

My advice would be to lay in on the line with your WH, what you are feeling, what you are contemplating, what your disappointments are in how he has handled the reconciliation, everything. I think you owe this to yourself (not to him) in order to say one day (to yourself and your children), if you decide on divorce, "I did everything I could."

But, if you decide to do otherwise, you are within your rights. He broke his marriage vow and, by doing so, released you from yours.

Wishing you the best possible outcome.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

still so sad said:


> Thornburn, I think you are on to something.
> I have thought about what is missing. I think I need a few things:
> 1. Reassurance that it is "safe" to put my whole heart back in to a relationship with him and not have it be stabbed to death again.
> 2. Although he does acknowledge that the reasons for having the A are totally on him, he doesn't seem to want to look deeper into the "whys" of what made him turn on me . I can't tell if he truly doesn't know or is too afraid to take an honest look at himself and find the "whys". When that topic comes up I get a lot of general answers like " We werent talking" " I thought you didnt love me anymore" or the cowardly escape clause of " I really just dont know" .
> ...


Love, security and significance are typical components in one's life. After my wife's A's these elements have been shattered. Slowly getting some of those three back but it is a struggle at times.

What seems to be missing is he putting all his energy into it? I don't mean those days where he has a bad day. We all have those, both the BS and the WS. But I am talking about, is he doing his part? There should not be TT at this stage in R. 

You are focused on the whys because you are not convinced that he has told you the truth about why. The whys hurt. When my wife told me some of the whys it hurt like he*l, "He was fun to be with", etc. 

Be persistant in getting to the why or whys. It will help you in your healing.


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

Racer said:


> You are past the 'what the hell happened' and onto the 'who is this person really?'
> I’ve struggled very hard holding onto a belief in my wife and maintaining hope.


This is where I am. The emotional trauma has subsided and the logic is starting to kick in. There are not a lot of logical reasons to stay with an adulterer. It’s a matter of the heart, and the heart is notorious for leading astray.



still so sad said:


> . . . he doesn't seem to want to look deeper into the "whys" of what made him turn on me . I can't tell if he truly doesn't know or is too afraid to take an honest look at himself and find the "whys".
> We talked a lot about her, about the patterns of their relationship . . .


You’re going to drive yourself into an asylum trying to find “the deeper meaning.” Let me give you the shortcut: your husband had an affair because he is/was a lazy, selfish a-hole and a coward. He became involved with another woman because it was easier to take on a part-time fantasy than to look you in the eye and culture a relationship. There’s nothing special about OW or the "patterns of their relationship;" she was simply the first little piggy in line offering up a warm wet one.

In my opinion, you’re hurting yourself and any chance at R by continuing to talk about the affair at this late stage.

You may find that, despite your best efforts and his, you just can’t stay with a man who treated you so badly. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. He knew beforehand that was a possible consequence and he decided to chance it.

Don’t stay for the kids. The lesson they learn from a mother who refused to stay with a cheating father could be more compelling than any lesson of forgiveness – and the two are not mutually exclusive. You stay only if it's best for YOU.

Peace, Triple-S. I feel your pain.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Sometimes a broken heart just can't be mended. I think life is too short to spend it with a heartache that can't seem to find closure. If there's a better choice, I would take it.

It seems to me that the problem is that the man who broke your heart simply may not have it in him to fix it. He isn't the man you thought he was. He's no longer honorable or trustworthy or respectable, so you can't put your heart in his hands. If he's not moving heaven and earth to prove to you that he can become those things again, then he can't be a true partner for you in your recovery.

Time appears to be telling you that you need to entrust your heart elsewhere. There's no shame in that. You've done yeoman's work in your marriage. Sometimes you just need to give up the burden and find some peace again.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

JustGrinding said:


> This is where I am. The emotional trauma has subsided and the logic is starting to kick in. There are not a lot of logical reasons to stay with an adulterer. It’s a matter of the heart, and the heart is notorious for leading astray.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Sometimes a broken heart just can't be mended. I think life is too short to spend it with a heartache that can't seem to find closure. If there's a better choice, I would take it.
> 
> It seems to me that the problem is that the man who broke your heart simply may not have it in him to fix it. He isn't the man you thought he was. He's no longer honorable or trustworthy or respectable, so you can't put your heart in his hands. If he's not moving heaven and earth to prove to you that he can become those things again, then he can't be a true partner for you in your recovery.
> 
> Time appears to be telling you that you need to entrust your heart elsewhere. There's no shame in that. You've done yeoman's work in your marriage. Sometimes you just need to give up the burden and find some peace again.


alte Dame continues to be one of the clearest posters on TAM.

I am inspired by the things I learn from her.

SSS, I hope you get your perspective and strength to move ahead.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Lovemytruck said:


> alte Dame continues to be one of the clearest posters on TAM.
> 
> I am inspired by the things I learn from her.


(Thanks Lovemytruck - you must know that the feeling is mutual.)


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

JustGrinding said:


> You’re going to drive yourself into an asylum trying to find “the deeper meaning.” Let me give you the shortcut: your husband had an affair because he is/was a lazy, selfish a-hole and a coward. He became involved with another woman because it was easier to take on a part-time fantasy than to look you in the eye and culture a relationship. There’s nothing special about OW or the "patterns of their relationship;" she was simply the first little piggy in line offering up a warm wet one.


As a WS, I'm going to weigh in on the "why" question here. Please feel free to disregard, since this is only my perspective and experience.

First, if you really feel like the above quote, then I don't see how reconciliation can ever be a possibility. Because you will never find any sense of security if you really believe that your spouse cheated simply because of selfishness or opportunity.

I am 9 months out from the end of my affair. Every day I face myself in the mirror and ask WHY was I a person who did this, who behaved and made choices that were absolutely NOT what I ever thought I was capable of? I cannot yet answer that to my satisfaction, so how could I possibly answer it to my husband's?

What I have been able to answer is HOW did I become vulnerable to that, and HOW can I make sure I am never in that place again. We have been working with Steve Harley of Marriage Builders since May. One of the most basic exercises they suggest is an Emotional Needs Questionnaire. Usually, it is a tool for helping spouses connect, and make sure each is feeling fulfilled in the relationship.

What Steve had me do was fill it out and then frame each of those needs as a vulnerability instead. I had to ask myself, what does it look like when someone else tries to fill this need? How do I recognize that and block that without being cold or shutting down basic interactions with people? And finally, how can I make sure my spouse knows about those types of interactions and my response? 

It was incredibly eye-opening for me to look at myself in this way. I have always been a really open person, and never really considered the need to "protect" myself and my emotions from other people until my affair. When I was in it, I really didn't know how it had happened, how I found myself "in love" with two people. But going through my list with Steve, I could see how OM was able to fill each of those most important needs for me in a non-sexual, non-threatening way, so that I never really even felt myself crossing that line until it was far, far too late.

I know EXACTLY what that looks like now, from any outside source. Every week, I go through that list with myself, and I do it periodically with my husband. Even after 4 months of weekly review, I still cry when going through it and feel so stupid that I didn't recognize it happening.

So I may never find the answer to "why" when faced with the ultimate clear choice, I veered so far off track. But I know how I got to that point, and I know I will never be back there again, so that even if fundamentally I am a selfish, lazy, assh*le, I can prevent another affair from happening.

I hope my husband believes more of me than that, that I have some redeeming positive qualities. I also hope that through introspection and transparency, I can help him feel more secure with me, by knowing I fully understand how I became vulnerable to someone else and that I have a clearly articulated plan in place to prevent any future vulnerabilities like that.

SSS, I hope that helps you as you think about where you and your husband are in R. Look at the questions that you are struggling with and see if some form of the answers you are seeking are hiding in other places. Or, if reframing the question will help your husband get past the "I don't knows".

I'm sorry for your pain and struggles. I hope the best for you - whatever you decide that is.


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## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

Mrs Mathias,
Thank you for your post. It is one of the best WS posts I have seen on this board in the last year.

It gives me a whole lot to think about. My WH does have good qualities and he is putting a great deal of work into this R ( sometimes even more than me, I think). I know that I am growing weary from the whole process and sometimes just want to " get wherever it is that I am going".

You have given me a lot to think about.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

You make the choice to stay or leave. Stay because you still want him and the marriage plus if he's giving 100%.

It's alot, lot harder to stay and work through an infidelity. The easy way out is to leave. The fastest way to heal is to leave. The best way to save your sanity is to leave.

Now ask yourself, is he worth it to put 150% of yourself back into this relationship? If you say no, cut loose and run.

I cheated too, but if I could go back in time I would have made my wife leave me. I cheated before we got married, when we got married and after we got married (within a 3 month span of getting married). We had no kids, no real assets yet and if I was really a man, I would have not taken her offer to get back with her.

I won, she lost out on this deal. But since she gave me a chance, I'm going to make sure that in the end when we're both old, she'll be able to look at me and say, "I made the right choice." It still won't be enough but it's the best I can do. Damn, I made myself tear up....


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> As a WS, I'm going to weigh in on the "why" question here. Please feel free to disregard, since this is only my perspective and experience.
> 
> First, if you really feel like the above quote, then I don't see how reconciliation can ever be a possibility. Because you will never find any sense of security if you really believe that your spouse cheated simply because of selfishness or opportunity.
> 
> ...


Great post - thank you.

Whatever the reasons that you allowed the OM to get into your life, there was a point in time where you knew that the next step was the Step Too Far.

That is the point that, in my opinion, sets cheaters apart from non cheaters. I believe that anyone can end up involved in an emotional affair. It isn't a widely recognised concept, there are no clearly defined yes/no boundaries involved.

As such, I can still have sympathy and empathy with somebody that has had an EA. I don't know if you had a PA.

The easy thing about a physical affair is that we can all transport ourselves to that exact point in time. Others may argue about a point of no return emotionally, but there is a very clear definition of physical cheating.

All the lists in the world will not answer the question as to why somebody involved in a physical affair went past that point of no return. A simple hand on the OM's chest and a loud "no" would have stopped it all, or in the case of a man; pulling away with an apology.

The lists might tell you why you got to an emotional affair, but they will not tell you why a physical one. The physical affair is a point in time, not an inevitable part of a wider "story" or process. That answer is, I believe, known by all waywards. Some do not admit it to themselves and fewer still are brave enough to tell their spouse. 

None of this is intended as a dig at you, Mrs M; your post was helpful and honest and thanks once again for making it.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

still so sad said:


> Thornburn, I think you are on to something.
> I have thought about what is missing. I think I need a few things:
> 1. Reassurance that it is "safe" to put my whole heart back in to a relationship with him and not have it be stabbed to death again.
> 2. Although he does acknowledge that the reasons for having the A are totally on him, he doesn't seem to want to look deeper into the "whys" of what made him turn on me . I can't tell if he truly doesn't know or is too afraid to take an honest look at himself and find the "whys". When that topic comes up I get a lot of general answers like " We werent talking" " I thought you didnt love me anymore" or the cowardly escape clause of " I really just dont know" .
> ...


I don't know your situation specifically but this statement caught my eye.

You are exhausted. You are constantly expending energy and rather than being refilled by your spouse you are just being drained. When a R is successful both spouses build each other up. Both put in all their energy and take back the energy that is needed to stay level and grounded. Right now it seems as if your husband is coasting along and you are pouring your entire being into keeping this marriage afloat. He sunk the ship but you are the one paddling the lifeboat trying to find a safe haven. Its not going to work and your mind realizes that.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsM knowing everything about your vulnerability and your needs will not prevent you from having an affair unless you want to prevent yourself from having an affair . the thing about affairs is how easily someone just a five-star be havior . lord knows they know what they're doing is wrong . They are self aware enough to know that .

Edit: it should have said "easily justify behaviour." 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

About 16 months for me and I understand where you are, I am there to, the emotional bonding and hysteria are faded and you are left with the reality of it all.
No matter how much people work on change after dday sooner or later the old habits come back the old person the person that cheated on you is back. They may never cheat again but their attitude, demeanor is like it was before after all a tiger can't change it's stripes and that brings about a constant worry of the relapse.
I am not innocent either some of the things I was doing before I am doing again(shutting down, I prefer to be alone a lot) and I have to remind myself to jump back into my marriage and stay active and positive.

Another thread said something about reaching a plateau in the relationship and I think that is right on target, you work so hard to rebuild give so much of yourself emotionally to fix your marriage that you just get tired and worn out.
That's when you start to question the marriage and if it's worth staying probably more than on dday that's where I am, it's been a long road already and I see a longer road ahead and some days I look for the strength to carry on.
I hope you find your strength to stay or to move on whatever path seems right for you.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

CH said:


> It's alot, lot harder to stay and work through an infidelity. The easy way out is to leave. The fastest way to heal is to leave. The best way to save your sanity is to leave.


I don't mean this as a threadjack because it is pertinent, imo.

CH, are you talking about your W, yourself, or both of you? You say that you would have forced her to leave you at the time of your infidelity. Was this as much for you as for her? Have you felt trapped all these years?


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

love=pain said:


> ...the emotional bonding and hysteria are faded and you are left with the reality of it all.
> 
> ...the old habits come back the old person the person that cheated on you is back. They may never cheat again but their attitude, demeanor is like it was before...
> 
> ...


These points are dead on for my experience too.

I admire Mrs. Matthias for working harder at R than many WSs do. It seems some do the extras that make it better.

My exWW was more like the quote. There is a very similar pattern as people move out from d-day. 

If you go back a re-read the "bill of rights" for a BS, it does say that there is no time limit for deciding. I agree with that. 

It really depends on YOU and where you feel comfortable as things progress. You are at a point where you know things are not getting better. Time for a change?

My opinion is that many of those that stay in a R do it out of fear more than for love.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

still so sad said:


> We have both worked hard in MC for the last 18 months. Initially even though it was hard, we made progress. Lately ( last 3-4 months) seems flat. Now I am thinking I should consider a divorce more closely. 3 kids and lots of extended family . No one knows about his A. They will be TOTALLY shocked(including him!) and devistated as I am. We are all pretty close. I hate to bring this pain into everyones lives, but I'm not sure that I want to stay in this relationship long term.
> 
> Has anyone else given their all to R but then came out getting the D in the end??


Yes - I gave it my best shot but ended up ending the R with my stbxw. I realized I just could not live with someone who would do that to me. I realized I have more self worth than that, and I wasn't willing to live with the pain, mistrust, anxiety and anger that she caused by betraying the hell out of me. Life's too short. DO what makes you happy. Your husband certainly did.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

CH said:


> It's alot, lot harder to stay and work through an infidelity. The easy way out is to leave. The fastest way to heal is to leave. The best way to save your sanity is to leave.



I think there is mixed truth in these statements. I think in the short term, it is much harder to stay and attempt to R. To face each other every day, to face the past, to attempt to look towards a future is incredibly difficult.

I don't think I agree that the fastest way to heal is to leave. I think healing of any kind is largely dependent on the person involved and how they choose to face this obstacle. Many people leave and carry these hurts forward into new relationships, or avoid relationships. Others stay and live in limbo, never allowing themselves to connect again. Both are awful ways to live.

Of course I hope and believe that the best way for my husband to heal is with me. That together we can minimize his scarring and repair some of the damage I wrought.

It's perhaps a weird analogy, and certainly no where as severe, but when I was a new teacher I had a student that was going through a difficult time. I went out on a limb for this student, intervened on their behalf with other faculty, and made a variety of special arrangements to attempt to help them get through the semester successfully. The student did not follow through on any of the arrangements I made, failed out of school, and made my judgement look poor to my colleagues. They also said that I "set them up to fail". I was crushed, and my idealism about helping individuals took a big hit. It was hard for me not to be jaded when looking at other students that I could offer help to - but SHOULD I? The most healing thing for me was having that original student contact me out of the blue years later and apologize for their behavior, letting me know that after growing up and looking back, they appreciated all that I attempted to do, and they really know where they went wrong and are turning their life around. Having that student successfully change restored a lot of my faith in the potential for other students. I hope that I can do the same for my husband. He can move on, but I would never want him to forever carry the weight of what I did. I want him to know, no matter what happens, I am trying to bear that burden with him and for him.

Not sure if my ramblings make sense... end of a busy day.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> What about Reconcilation with the WS AFTER a Divorce?
> 
> What are the chances and success rate?


I'd rather die alone.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> What Steve had me do was fill it out and then frame each of those needs as a vulnerability instead. I had to ask myself, what does it look like when someone else tries to fill this need?
> 
> It was incredibly eye-opening for me to look at myself in this way. I have always been a really open person, and never really considered the need to "protect" myself and my emotions from other people until my affair. When I was in it, I really didn't know how it had happened, how I found myself "in love" with two people. But going through my list with Steve, I could see how OM was able to fill each of those most important needs for me in a non-sexual, non-threatening way, so that I never really even felt myself crossing that line until it was far, far too late.


If it's not too private/painful/or rude of me to ask, could you share one of these needs/vulnerabilities?


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I think that the why is as simple as a person wanting to fulfill their own selfish desires. It isn't that they don't better, they made a conscience decision to cheat to fill there own desires. Mrs Matthias brings up an excellent point of how did it happened. By identifying the how did it happen, she has set in motion a plan for identifying her weakness' and how she can guard against a repeat of the infidelity. Personally, I don't think that there is a problem that can't be fixed, IF both of you want to fix the problem. I also recognized that not all individuals can get beyond the betrayal and divorce.

However, the divorce does not fix the problem of the betrayal, it is still there and is something that you have to deal with whether married or divorced. This may take years to overcome.


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## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

Selfish, cruel and cowardly is how I am viewing WH's decision to cheat on me and poison our marriage and family.

Now the questions are:

Can this selfish, cruel, coward wholeheartedly reform and dedicate himself to healing me and reestablishing my trust like he claims he can? He has put a lot of effort into the R so far. I will give him some credit for that. 

But how much time is enough time to give him to prove himself?


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> If it's not too private/painful/or rude of me to ask, could you share one of these needs/vulnerabilities?


The basic list of primary emotional needs according to Dr. Harley includes affection (non-sexual), recreational companionship, conversation, sexual fulfillment, family commitment, honesty and openness, financial support, domestic support, physical attractiveness, and admiration. People have varying levels of need and value for each of these.

For me, my top three are affection, conversation, and honesty and openness. So it was very simple for someone to make deposits in those areas without it seeming romantic or like it was crossing boundaries to me. I work in performing arts, people are naturally very effusive and affectionate in that area. Conversation is simply done, especially if there are common interests. And for me, since I have typically been very open and honest about my life with others, they tend to confide in me in return. I am usually seen as approachable, a problem-solver, and supportive of people.

It's not that my husband wasn't doing those things - to an extent he was, although perhaps not as frequently as early in our relationship. But it wasn't about me feeling particularly unfulfilled at home - I was largely unaware of how wide the disconnect between Matt and I had grown because I was instinctively filling any gaps with outside friends, activities, and more work. It was more that I wasn't guarding against OTHER people doing them, and that led to the confusion of feeling "in love" with two people because I had become accustomed to each of them interacting with me in those important areas. Dr. Harley's theory is that once someone makes enough deposits into your love bank through filling emotional needs and avoiding love busters, you will automatically feel in love with them. For me, I can clearly see that theory at work as I look at my situation.

After months of serious introspection, study, IC, and MC, I don't consider myself to be a coward who avoided issues in my marriage. I was ignorant/not self-aware enough to really identify what Matt and I were doing to each other and how each of us really felt about that. We both felt our marriage was "good", but since then, I have looked hard at how we were and how I hope we can be, and there is a lot of room for us to be better partners for each other. I am not a WS who was bashing my husband, my marriage, my life. I am the idiot romantic who didn't understand how I suddenly felt this external person was so important to me, and while my actions were ultimately incredibly selfish and harmful to my husband, many things I did and felt were motivated by a misplaced and mislead sense of care and responsibility for OM, rather than this conscious choice to "do what I wanted" or felt entitled to. I always felt torn, still attached and loving my husband but also emotionally tied to OM. 

But again, this is only my own experience. I know from reading many threads here that while in many ways I followed the cheater's script and certainly am as horrible as anyone who would do that to the person they claim to love, I also differ substantially in other areas. But I'm guessing that's true of everyone. We're all the same and all different as we go through this experience. I hope that answers your question a little bit.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> It was more that I wasn't guarding against OTHER people doing them, and that led to the confusion of feeling "in love" with two people because I had become accustomed to each of them interacting with me in those important areas.


It's astonishing (and a little disquieting) how subtle the first mis-steps can be.



> I hope that answers your question a little bit.


Thank you, that was articulate and enlightening. Since joining TAM I've revised my position from a simplistic "Oh I would never be unfaithful" to, what I consider a healthier place, where I now believe it's always possible for almost anyone. Including me.

I suppose the effort and thought that you've put into understanding the "why?" is what the OP is lacking from her WS. Without really getting to the heart of why?, how can the WS or still so sad be sure it won't happen again.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

still so sad said:


> Selfish, cruel and cowardly is how I am viewing WH's decision to cheat on me and poison our marriage and family.
> 
> Now the questions are:
> 
> ...


Again, just my two cents... It's clear you are still in so much pain and grief, and I am so sorry you are in that place.

IMO time alone does nothing. Time is an important factor, IF your WS is consistently demonstrating his remorse, his awareness of what happened, his plans for future prevention, and his dedication to building a relationship where you both feel engaged, connected, and fulfilled. But here's the rub - you have to let him in and become vulnerable again for ANY of those actions to have a positive impact on you. He has to do the "heavy lifting" and demonstrate change, but you have to be willing to let that change matter, to let that change and those actions help heal your heart. If you cannot or will not allow him access to you emotionally - whether it be from fear, anger, resentment, or detachment - then even if he creates every possible condition for you to be in love with him and meets your emotional needs in a way that resonates with you, it will not matter at all and you will never have a fulfilling relationship again.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly not saying that you are at fault or responsible for still feeling sad and thinking of divorce after 18 months. But I do believe at some point the relationship has to become a partnership again, with both parties really choosing to invest in each other and attempt to create the future that they want. No one would ever fault a BS for not choosing that, or feeling unable to do that, especially if the WS isn't making essentially herculean efforts to attempt to show the BS how loved, valuable, and (as much as possible) safe they can be with their partner.

I hope you can find a path to peace.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Still so sad, maybe you can share what your husband has done and is doing to help you heal during the R. You say he is working very hard. I'm sure he is offering you words of comfort but what actions has he taken to ensure there is not a repeat? What has he done to rebuild your trust? What steps has he taken to insulate you both from further instances of betrayal?


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## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

Thank you again Mrs M for another enlightening post! I am sure that your fresh perspective is helping many people on this board besides just me. Thanks for being here and contributing.

As for WH's efforts, he has , among other things, been open about attending MC and IC. Taken responsibility for the cause of the A. Been accountable for his wearabouts both day to day and while on business travel. Been supportive of my career and recent job change, Been encouraging of me to take time for myself away from home and motherly duties. Been supportive of situations within our extended family.  Been complimentary about my skills as a wife, mother and career woman. Expressed affection both in and out of the bedroom. Getting much better at answering my questions about the A ( we had a lot of trickle truthing and rug sweeping from him in the beginning)

There are more things to work on. The largest among them, I feel is that he needs to work during IC to examine his personal weaknesses that led him to the A. I have my theories ( which I have shared with the MC), but he needs to look inside, draw out the issues and resolve them. He needs to do this to help me feel "safe" to fully commit my heart to him and move on in the marriage.

I told him that although he admits to throwing the bomb into our life, that is only part of the recovery. He has to now be willing to clean up the blood.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

still so sad said:


> There are more things to work on. The largest among them, I feel is that he needs to work during IC to examine his personal weaknesses that led him to the A. I have my theories ( which I have shared with the MC), but he needs to look inside, draw out the issues and resolve them. He needs to do this to help me feel "safe" to fully commit my heart to him and move on in the marriage.
> 
> I told him that although he admits to throwing the bomb into our life, that is only part of the recovery. He has to now be willing to clean up the blood.


From your first paragraph it seems your fWH has to find out how he came to be holding the bomb in the first place.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> From your first paragraph it seems your fWH has to find out how he came to be holding the bomb in the first place.


Maybe that's why you are exhausted sss. Maybe you are just tired from always having to be in protection mode because you don't feel safe enough to let your guard down. Have you explained this to him? What has he done to start the analysis process as to why he picked up that bomb?


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## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

Yes, I am exhausted from keeping my guard up - exactly!

His soul searching issue is what I plan to bring up at the next MC session.

I know that we still have a lot of work to do.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Been In R for 18 mo, Now thinking Divorce*



still so sad said:


> Yes, I am exhausted from keeping my guard up - exactly!
> 
> His soul searching issue is what I plan to bring up at the next MC session.
> 
> I know that we still have a lot of work to do.


Do you have a place where you can relax? A really good friend or friends to be with? A club that you go to? A gym to exercise? Someplace where you can get away for a while and just be yourself?


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## still so sad (May 27, 2013)

I really dont have a "relax" place. These thoughts follow me everywhere I go! I am either busy with kids and family obligations or working. Sometimes I do watch some mindless TV though, just to escape.

With my job I spend a lot of time in the car. That can be good and bad. I try to listen to music,and sometimes I say things out loud while driving that I either will or would like to say to him. Many of those things are not so nice. In the early weeks after DDay, I wrote in a journal but I'm not much of a writer so that fell by the wayside.

I have only told 1 friend. She has been a WS herself so its kinda hard to relate to my side of the story. She and her H stayed together. Its still rocky between them, and its been 15+ years.

We have MC tonight. Not sure how this one is gonna go...
I am thinking about taking a night or two away by myself. Maybe just a resort close to home just to change scenery and think about what I really want long term.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

still so sad said:


> I really dont have a "relax" place. These thoughts follow me everywhere I go! I am either busy with kids and family obligations or working. Sometimes I do watch some mindless TV though, just to escape.
> 
> With my job I spend a lot of time in the car. That can be good and bad. I try to listen to music,and sometimes I say things out loud while driving that I either will or would like to say to him. Many of those things are not so nice. In the early weeks after DDay, I wrote in a journal but I'm not much of a writer so that fell by the wayside.
> 
> ...


You really need to find a place to decompress or you're going to burn out. The advice for men is usually to find a gym and start working out in order to deal with the stress. You could do that or you could find another outlet. Maybe take a yoga class or enroll in meditation. I've done meditation and its wonderful. Or maybe something musical if you're so inclined. Drawing, sketching, painting are all good too. You need a "you" place that you can go to when you need to relax. Its extremely important.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Since you are in a car a lot, that's rough. My mind idles, and when it does, it goes to 'that' subject. You might try audio books (or a foreign language one). So your brain listens to a story. I also sometimes just blare the radio and sing along... sort of funny and I chuckle to myself and other drivers when they spot me doing it.

Meditation, yoga,... you might also try a kickboxing class.


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