# Why is it better to R than D?



## Mortie (Dec 19, 2013)

I have read so many posts here about Reconciliation vs Divorce. It seems to me that most people say reconciliation is the better option. I don't quite understand this since the pain of her cheating really isn't getting any better even with IC and MC. The mind movies still keep playing and the anger is still there. Every time I see her at the computer or playing on her phone, I can't help but wonder. Reconciliation would be so much easier if I could just forget what happened and get rid of the anger. Am I suppose to forget? Will the anger go away? Maybe reconciliation is not the answer??


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Mortie said:


> I have read so many posts here about Reconciliation vs Divorce. It seems to me that most people say reconciliation is the better option. I don't quite understand this since the pain of her cheating really isn't getting any better even with IC and MC. The mind movies still keep playing and the anger is still there. Every time I see her at the computer or playing on her phone, I can't help but wonder. Reconciliation would be so much easier if I could just forget what happened and get rid of the anger. *Am I suppose to forget? Will the anger go away? Maybe reconciliation is not the answer??*


I'm going to give you my opinion. It's probably not very popular.

We cannot forget, unless we have some accident with brain damage, or an illness like dementia or alzheimer's. That's just the way our brains work.

I've found that it's nearly impossible for me to get rid of the anger. When I have seen x2 in the grocery store, I felt a great deal of anger. I said nothing to her and just kept moving, after pausing for a minute to get my thoughts together. I do think it is possible to get rid of the anger. I will be working on this for a long time. 

Reconciliation is the answer for some, but not all. It is determined on an individual basis. It's not for everyone. Only you can determine if you are able to try to reconcile. You are only one half of that equation. Your wife is the other half. 

I wish you all the best. I hope you find the answer that makes you happiest.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

How long have you been in R? How is your wife responding to it? Has she given full disclosure, full transparency and gone NC with AP?

I've been of the mind that I could never R after an A. However, that's probably because I never approached it the way it is outlined on TAM. It was always rug-swept and there was no real remorse or working on the pain and healing. I can see how if it was done right I _might_ be able to R. I don't know if I could though or if the betrayal would be too big a knock to my confidence and trust in that person. How are things in R? What point are you at? Sorry you are hurting


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

What is your wife doing to help you heal? What were the consequences? Did you expose?

I didn't reconcile, and yes you heal much quicker that way. It also helped with the anger. I got even by divorcing her. The sense of injustice helped me let go. 

All that said it does work out for some couples.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Mortie, 

For some, it's, "the devil you know versus the devil you don't". I know if you follow what others have done here, you have a pretty darn good chance of reconciliation. These folks here are knowledgeable. There have to be certain things take place that you cannot affect. They have to come from the WS on their own accord. I also think that certain things must be present in your marriage, before, during and after the affair(s). 

You will go through many days of doubt. That doesn't mean you should give up. That's pretty normal. Either way you go, divorce or reconciliation, you will go through these doubts.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

This may be wrong but I think a lot of people try to "R" because in their inner being they (Don't want to lose) and deal with the Devil (mind movies, lack of trust, etc.) because of that inner drive. 

They "R" but it is a lifelong questionable "R" why did they let their SO treat them in a way and they let them get away with it when they would have thrown anyone else to the curb if they were betrayed by them? Is it Love or is it the inner thing that if they give up on the one they chose that they will always see this as a major Loss in their life.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I reconciled, and for me it was better, but not so for everyone.
You never really get over he infidelity, but it becomes something you can live with.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

It's not always better to R. Every situation is different. Some R successfully, and others are miserable with it and wish they divorced. You need to decide what's best for you.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

be interesting to see the true figures on success or failure

For me personally I can't see how there is any confidence of complete success

Here you will find a few wayward spouses that have incredibly for me managed to even begin to do all that is necessary for their betrayed spouses to consider taking them back

There are only a few on here that manage it imo - EI and a couple of others. If you check them out you will see the gargantuan efforts they have made for their betrayed partners.

For a true successful reconciliation the wayward has to completely expose themselves to self examination and analysis in a manner that is, well, almost impossible I'd say. To look inside yourself as they have done is a truly monumental effort and even then there are no guarantees

Personally I've learned the hard way - a few recons that never really got off the ground due to my inability to enforce proper ground rules and borders for fear of turning the marriage into a 'police' state !

I do appreciate how difficult it must be to repair a destroyed marriage even more now because after everything recently my vstxw wanted to 'come home' to me and "try again" - ("We know we still love each other "!). In many of the hours that followed and my listing what I would need to even consider it, we both looked into each others eyes and really for the first time understood she was simply not capable of getting past the first hurdle

Actually it's helped put a knife through something that was writhing around waiting for the final death knell - us - and now impending divorce seems a relief and pleasing outcome 

Reconciling is a huge undertaking and without basic unconditional remorse and honesty there is zero chance 

Not for the faint hearted imo (especially more than once)


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I reconciled, and for me it was better, but not so for everyone.
> You never really get over he infidelity, but it becomes something you can live with.


Banned ten minutes ago !

What have you done ??!!


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

I agree with Gabriel. I do not believe one is always better than the other. Each situation is different and factors come in to play. Is the wayward spouse remorseful and willing to help the BS heal? Other factors for different situations exist as well. 

I went the route of D in my case but it was the right move in the situation I had to deal with. 

I do enjoy reading about successful R though as well. 

Best of luck to you
Wd
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

I agree with many here on it depends on the situation. For me, D was the correct answer; both for myself and as a model for my children. I can understand R in the case of a one time, ST affair, but that is pretty much it. In the case of serial cheaters, it becomes a matter of self respect and a choice to choose not to be abused.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Banned ten minutes ago !
> 
> What have you done ??!!


????? He's the most civil poster we have here.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Mortie said:


> I have read so many posts here about Reconciliation vs Divorce. *It seems to me that most people say reconciliation is the better option*. I don't quite understand this since the pain of her cheating really isn't getting any better even with IC and MC. The mind movies still keep playing and the anger is still there. Every time I see her at the computer or playing on her phone, I can't help but wonder. Reconciliation would be so much easier if I could just forget what happened and get rid of the anger. Am I suppose to forget? Will the anger go away? *Maybe reconciliation is not the answer??*


First and foremost, your decision whether to R or D should not be based on what you believe is the "popular" or "politically correct" road to travel. What *you* do should be based solely on your own standards and beliefs, since it is *you* that must deal with the consequences.

Ask yourself this. Why do you trigger when she is on her computer or playing on her phone? Is it because it brings back memories, or is it because your "gut" is telling you that she is doing something in secret? What is she doing to fix the marriage and help you to heal? Is she fully on your side, or do you feel that she is simply biding her time, waiting for the waters to calm and will continue with an A once she feels you are no longer watching?

While there are a few here who have decided to R and seem to be handling things well, each couple has their own personal issues to resolve. Some of the WSs are truly remorseful and will do anything and everything to repair the damage that they have caused. There are others who fall through the cracks. Still others are together for their children and will suffer any injustice to keep the family intact. It's an individual decision.

On the other hand, there are many threads here which resulted in D. The WS was not remorseful. The WS was playing the usual mind tricks (blame shifting - trickle truth, etc.). For their BS, D was the right call.

There is no "better" conclusion. Either choice can be the right one. Each of us has to decide what decision we can live with. I chose D. My WS showed no remorse and was more than willing to try to hide his As and continue the marriage. I was not willing to live with that. There is no one that can tell me that I made the wrong decision, popular or not. I did what was right for me and I have no regrets.

Reconciliation is not always the answer. It is for some, but not all.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

For some, yes, marriages can be rebuilt. Not for all. I was in R for 30 years and then last year I finally pulled the trigger on D. Having tried both, I am much happier with D. That sick, gut-wrenching feeling of betrayal is gone. The triggers are gone (except for how much I still dislike the OW's name). I no longer worry about what he's doing. I have forgiven him and can be friends with him. 

None of that happened during the 30 years of R because I guess I was subconsciously waiting for the other shoe to drop. Which it did. And so I stepped out of one life and into a better life for me. R is not for everyone.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't think one is better or worse than the other. I can only speak hypothetically on this, but it would seem to be a very complex decision as so many considerations apply: nature of the betrayal, length and quality of relationship, children, likelihood of success of R, and many intangibles. Personally, I'd be leaning strongly towards D in most scenarios, but can see some where R could be worth the attempt.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mortie said:


> It seems to me that most people say reconciliation is the better option.
> 
> *Not necessarily. The better option is the one that gives you the better life going forward.*
> 
> ...


A successful R, aside from the obvious need for both partners to be committed to one another and for the affair to be dead dead dead, requires that the WS be truly remorseful and take active measures to express this to the BS. It won't work if the objective (for both of you) is simply to "get back to where we were." You won't. Read the posts of EI, Mrs John Adams, ForeverGrateful and Mrs_Mathias, for example, to see what truly remorseful WS's look like. I thought Mrs. John Adams expressed it most eloquently in one of her posts: "Let me help you carry this burden. It's only fair, since I put it there." If your WW thinks along these lines, then you have a good chance for R.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

There is no way to answer this in a general way. Its an individual choice. Whats good for me may not be good for you. It depends on the person, the situation, and other factors.

I decided for R. I had a very young daughter to think about and I did what I felt was best for her. I can get past this and my wife is doing all she can to repair the catastrophic damage she caused our family.

Now, if we had no children, I would have divorced her.

I initially stayed because of my daughter. My wife is doing all she can to ensure that I made the right decision.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

Mortie said:


> I have read so many posts here about Reconciliation vs Divorce. It seems to me that most people say reconciliation is the better option. I don't quite understand this since the pain of her cheating really isn't getting any better even with IC and MC. The mind movies still keep playing and the anger is still there. Every time I see her at the computer or playing on her phone, I can't help but wonder. Reconciliation would be so much easier if I could just forget what happened and get rid of the anger. Am I suppose to forget? Will the anger go away? Maybe reconciliation is not the answer??


I totally understand. Its been over a year and my anger is still raw. Disgust. Mind movies. 

Does it ever go away? Wish I could forget about it too.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

Fenix said:


> I agree with many here on it depends on the situation. For me, D was the correct answer; both for myself and as a model for my children. I can understand R in the case of a one time, ST affair, but that is pretty much it. In the case of serial cheaters, it becomes a matter of self respect and a choice to choose not to be abused.


Or in my case, H got the OW pregnant. Can't reconcile. Final nail in the coffin.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

brokenbythis said:


> Or in my case, H got the OW pregnant. Can't reconcile. Final nail in the coffin.


Yeah. *shakinghead* I would say that 9 times out of 10, D is the right answer.

Love your avatar btw./ :smthumbup:


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

kids and finances...thats the ONLY reason I can imagine for trying to move past a betrayal...there are too many fishies out there to stay with a cheater unless there are kids involved or you cant afford a divorce...


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

missthelove2013 said:


> kids and finances...thats the ONLY reason I can imagine for trying to move past a betrayal...there are too many fishies out there to stay with a cheater unless there are kids involved or you cant afford a divorce...


I think there are other potential reasons for trying R. The first and foremost being that the BS just wants to. Period. Everyone has their own line of masochism. Some draw theirs immediately, others tolerate a lot more. 

I, for one, have been able to work through my wife's EA, which was a pretty big hurdle. I also could probably get over a really drunk ONS that she could barely remember. Maybe. But if her EA developed into her surrendering her body to the OM, I would never have recovered, and nothing, not my 3 kids, nor our surely resulting financial struggles would have stopped me from D.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mortie said:


> I have read so many posts here about Reconciliation vs Divorce. It seems to me that most people say reconciliation is the better option. I don't quite understand this since the pain of her cheating really isn't getting any better even with IC and MC. The mind movies still keep playing and the anger is still there. Every time I see her at the computer or playing on her phone, I can't help but wonder. Reconciliation would be so much easier if I could just forget what happened and get rid of the anger. Am I suppose to forget? Will the anger go away? Maybe reconciliation is not the answer??


Reconciliation isn't always better than divorce and vice versa.

It depends on the two people involved.

If you can't see yourself ever coming to a point where her cheating doesn't enter your mind and you getting angry about it, then divorce is your best option. Believe me, I know!

Your anger will go away, but never completely. You will boil inside once in a while thinking about her spreading her legs for someone else. That I guarantee.

So for you, I believe divorce is best for you. And trust me my man, you won't regret it. There are better women out there. 
Myself I choose to stay single, but for you, there are better women, guaranteed.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

One really isn’t better than the other. But in my head... you can always D. That option never disappears. Same can’t be said of R after you D. At least I’m not built that way. Should I decide to D, my personal efforts will be made toward that end and moving on with my life. R would no longer be possible.


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## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

Mortie said:


> I have read so many posts here about Reconciliation vs Divorce. It seems to me that most people say reconciliation is the better option. I don't quite understand this since the pain of her cheating really isn't getting any better even with IC and MC. The mind movies still keep playing and the anger is still there. Every time I see her at the computer or playing on her phone, I can't help but wonder. Reconciliation would be so much easier if I could just forget what happened and get rid of the anger. Am I suppose to forget? Will the anger go away? Maybe reconciliation is not the answer??


From experience I can tell you that you will never forget, but you don't have to forget to be able to forgive. The anger will subside once you are able to truly forgive, and you will know you have once the thoughts and events don't affect you like they have in the past. They will be nothing more than thoughts but the feelings of it wont be attached to it anymore. Or at least this is what I have been told.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Here's my view:

If a BS takes the road of R, they can't know which is better. At least not until they're on their deathbed, or looking over their WS's deathbed.

If at that point, they can look back on the years since Dday and know their spouse remained remorseful, faithful - and they loved each other to the end;that's when they can know.

You see, that's the problem with being betrayed.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Regardless of the choice to R or D, I don't think the pain of betrayal nor the anger ever completely goes away. It gets better, a lot better as time goes on but it's never fully gone.

There are those on CWI that have been reconciled for years and DDay still rears its ugly head. There are also those that have been divorced and even some that have remarried, yet here we all are.

Whether R or D is better for someone else is not for me to say.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Only you can decide if you can or want to R. And even if you WANT to, it doesn't mean you can. And even if you CAN, it doesn't mean you want to.

I tried, really hard. I swallowed my pride and comforted her when she realized I had moved on and slept with someone else. After that happened she decided she wanted to R, and I had wanted to all along, because I knew I had to TRY and save my family. I couldn't just give up.

I soon realized I could not and did not want to reconcile. I realized the betrayal was too deep, I wasn't willing to spend the rest of my days policing her, worrying, wondering, having mind movies, being angry, not trusting, and dealing with that brutal struggle within every Goddamned day. I realized life is too short to continue dedicating my life to someone who threw me away like a piece of dog sh*t. I'm better than that, I can do better than her, and why would I want to live with someone like that?

So, I am eagerly awaiting the divorce to come through. It is filed. 

The choice is yours and yours alone. Nobody, NOBODY has any say but you (unless she doesn't want to R). But this is your game now. You hold the cards. Don't feel you have to R - because you don't. And realize this - if you decide you want to stay with her, you will live a very different life, just like if you D. Your trust is gone, gone for good. A part of you has died and it will never fully come back. Can you live with the consequences of her cheating, and live with her too? I couldn't do it.

Divorce is scary, but living a lie is even scarier.

Best to you whatever you decide.


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## Visionknower (Oct 14, 2013)

R and entitlement- Maybe the chump lady can help bring clarity regarding R and D. 

Reconciliation and Entitlement


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> I soon realized I could not and did not want to reconcile. I realized the betrayal was too deep, I wasn't willing to spend the rest of my days policing her, worrying, wondering, having mind movies, being angry, not trusting, and dealing with that brutal struggle within every Goddamned day. I realized life is too short to continue dedicating my life to someone who threw me away like a piece of dog sh*t. I'm better than that, I can do better than her, and why would I want to live with someone like that?
> 
> So, I am eagerly awaiting the divorce to come through. It is filed.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Healer said:


> Only you can decide if you can or want to R. And even if you WANT to, it doesn't mean you can. And even if you CAN, it doesn't mean you want to.
> 
> I tried, really hard. I swallowed my pride and comforted her when she realized I had moved on and slept with someone else. After that happened she decided she wanted to R, and I had wanted to all along, because I knew I had to TRY and save my family. I couldn't just give up.
> 
> ...


I agree with every word. I am just glad i realized this all on dday.

The rea question betrayed spouses must ask is, can i survive my spouse cheating a second time?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

illwill said:


> I agree with every word. I am just glad i realized this all on dday.
> 
> The rea question betrayed spouses must ask is, can i survive my spouse cheating a second time?


I'm not willing to find out. And it's moot anyway, because our marriage couldn't survive her cheating the first time.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

illwill said:


> I agree with every word. I am just glad i realized this all on dday.
> 
> The rea question betrayed spouses must ask is, can i survive my spouse cheating a second time?


I tend to think that the second time is not as shocking.

My exWW had at least a EA probably PA with my former best friend after a 13 month PA with a co-worker. I had D-day 1, and 5 months later a D-day 2 when I found some of the untold story.

The D-day #2 was more of a sense that she was a joke of a wife than the utter devastation surrounding D-day #1. Did that make sense? Lol!

D-day #2 was a realization that she was not the woman I thought I had married 23 years prior.

I read about the others stories of subsequent D-days and wonder what is the point of trying to R. Open marriages were never my intentions. At least in an open marriage there is more honesty.

What about getting a get out of jail free card? Maybe an A is a ticket to a second chance. It is hell going through betrayal and D, but the silver lining may be a new and better life.

Always look on the bright side.


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## Mortie (Dec 19, 2013)

Thanks for all the great posts and advice. We have been in R since Sept 2013 when I found out that she had slept with her ex boyfriend just prior to us getting married 22 years ago. Its old to her but new to me. She lied about it and then came clean after 22 years. I then found out that she had been PMing, texting, emailing and talking on the phone to another POSOM on a forum similar to this up until Nov 2013. She claims there was nothing to it but her trying to help POSOM with his marriage but she was deleting all of the phone calls, emails and texts attempting to hide it from me. 

Since in R, she has given me all of her passwords and logins, she not longer deletes the computer history and I have all of her phone records. 99% of the time she seems remorseful. This is her consequence for her sleeping with her ex and her EA with POSOM. By the way she still claims the EA was not an EA because she had no feeling towards him. She also claims that it wasnt an EA according to Not Just Friends but it was a slipery slope. But of course as far as the quiz in Not Just Friends, only she would know the truth as to the answers. As far as I can tell the EA ended in Nov 2013. 

The triggers still happen when I see her playing on her phone and on the computer because that was how she communicated with POSOM. I dont have any evidence that she is still talking to POSOM by phone or computer but the triggers are still there.

In my past, all of the women that I dated including one that I was engaged to had cheated on me so I cut them loose as soon as I found out. I was not given the opportunity to make the decision about her because I didnt find out for 22 years and we now have 3 kids. 

The decision to R or D is very hard now due to the children. I do love her more than anyting but I HATE what she has done to me and the kids. The kids are to young to understand any of this other than the fact that Mommy and Daddy are not getting along. I know in my heart that she is remorseful and that she seems to be doing everything that she can today to make things right. My problem is that I feel like a push over for trying to R. She didnt have any problem p***ing on me 22 years ago and lying about it. She didnt worry about passing on a disease to me. All she thought about back then was herself. She didnt think about hurting me whe she started talking behind the scenes on a forum with POSOM for the last 2 to 3 years. The old me would have said he** NO to any kind of R. I feel like I have a "kick me" sign on my back for going through R.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Mortie said:


> The decision to R or D is very hard now due to the children. I do love her more than anyting but I HATE what she has done to me and the kids. The kids are to young to understand any of this other than the fact that Mommy and Daddy are not getting along. I know in my heart that she is remorseful and that she seems to be doing everything that she can today to make things right. My problem is that I feel like a push over for trying to R. She didnt have any problem p***ing on me 22 years ago and lying about it. She didnt worry about passing on a disease to me. All she thought about back then was herself. She didnt think about hurting me whe she started talking behind the scenes on a forum with POSOM for the last 2 to 3 years. The old me would have said he** NO to any kind of R. I feel like I have a "kick me" sign on my back for going through R.


I feel you. The kids made this decision an easy one. I wasnt ready to destroy the life they have always knows and my daughter is to young to understand. If I thought there was even the slightest chance we could work this out, I would do it over and over for my kids.

The feeling of her "getting away with it" eats at me all the time. Like you said, she wasnt worried about anyone other than herself. I try to tell myself that even though she keeps her marriage and family, she didnt just get away with it. She lost a lot. She lost trust, respect from me and her son, and respect from the family. She also lost a lot of me. I would have done anything to make her life easier before. Not anymore.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

It seems your feelings about R and D are very similar to what I experienced.

I debated on R/limbo for about 8 months. My two sons were 18 and 21, so it was less of a factor. Financially it was the low point of the housing market, so I knew that selling the house was a very bad move. I eventually felt that neither the kids or the money was as important as my need to go down a different path.

Both choices require sacrifice. One is external, the other is internal.

Time is a factor. I think we decide based on what is the best use of our time. We never get it back. How much time is it worth? Is this a good use of it?

Time with our children when they are young is priceless. Time with an unworthy spouse is similar to incarceration. Balance the two and you might find the equation will change as you age due to our children becoming more independent.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Mortie the act may have been years ago but this is still pretty new to you. Have you told her how you are feeling? R is a long road. She has had years to come to terms with what she has done and you have just started down that road.

The mind movies do get better with time. I still do have those moments and we have been in real R about two years.

Ask her how she would react if she knew you had sex with someone she knew? Really talk about your feelings about your mind movies, trust and sex with her. That is the only way it is going to work.


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## Mortie (Dec 19, 2013)

Mahike, I appreciate the post. I have thrown a hypothetical question to her. I asked how would you feel if I had slept with someone else or my ex. Her reply is I can't put myself in that situation because I'm not in that situation. I asked her how she would feel if someone had cheated on her? She said that she has no way of telling what that feels like because no one has ever cheated on her before. She claims that she is just unable to herself in a hypothetical situation. The truth is that it is just an excuse. She is a very jealous person so I know how she would react. She just won't say it.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Mortie said:


> Mahike, I appreciate the post. I have thrown a hypothetical question to her. I asked how would you feel if I had slept with someone else or my ex. Her reply is I can't put myself in that situation because I'm not in that situation. I asked her how she would feel if someone had cheated on her? She said that she has no way of telling what that feels like because no one has ever cheated on her before. She claims that she is just unable to herself in a hypothetical situation. The truth is that it is just an excuse. She is a very jealous person so I know how she would react. She just won't say it.


My stbxww left me, then I found out about the lt affair. She told me to "move on, be happy, you'll be great". So I did - started dating, and the instant I slept with someone else she knew it, and flipped out completely, then wanted me back. :rofl: Utterly insane.

She still often says "I know there is someone in your life, and it drives me crazy". Crazy crazy crazy.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Healer said:


> My stbxww left me, then I found out about the lt affair. She told me to "move on, be happy, you'll be great". So I did - started dating, and the instant I slept with someone else she knew it, and flipped out completely, then wanted me back. :rofl: Utterly insane.
> 
> She still often says "I know there is someone in your life, and it drives me crazy". Crazy crazy crazy.


It's her cake and she doesn't want to give it up or away to anyone!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Mortie said:


> Thanks for all the great posts and advice. We have been in R since Sept 2013 when I found out that she had slept with her ex boyfriend just prior to us getting married 22 years ago. Its old to her but new to me. She lied about it and then came clean after 22 years. I then found out that she had been PMing, texting, emailing and talking on the phone to another POSOM on a forum similar to this up until Nov 2013. She claims there was nothing to it but her trying to help POSOM with his marriage but she was deleting all of the phone calls, emails and texts attempting to hide it from me.
> 
> Since in R, *she has given me all of her passwords and logins, she not longer deletes the computer history and I have all of her phone records. 99% of the time she seems remorseful.* This is her consequence for her sleeping with her ex and her EA with POSOM. By the way she still claims the EA was not an EA because she had no feeling towards him. She also claims that it wasnt an EA according to Not Just Friends but it was a slipery slope. But of course as far as the quiz in Not Just Friends, only she would know the truth as to the answers. As far as I can tell the EA ended in Nov 2013.


She seems remorseful and she has given you all the info you asked for. Good. 



Mortie said:


> *The triggers still happen* when I see her playing on her phone and on the computer because that was how she communicated with POSOM. I dont have any evidence that she is still talking to POSOM by phone or computer but the triggers are still there.


Triggers will happen for a while. I wonder how many years it took for her to get past worrying you might find out? I wonder who knew about it and if she was worried they might, "spill the beans"? 

You don't have any evidence of further trouble. 



Mortie said:


> In my past, all of the women that I dated including one that I was engaged to had cheated on me so I cut them loose as soon as I found out. *I was not given the opportunity to make the decision *about her because I didnt find out for 22 years and we now have 3 kids.


That would be hard to take. She controlled you by not telling you. She decided what was best for you. It's manipulation. I think you would do well to read the men's books and put them into practice. NMMNG, MMSL, HOTYN, or other books on boundaries in marriage might give you some confidence and control back in your life. I don't mean control of her, but control of yourself and your own life. I don't mean you are, "out of control", either. It just seems as though she has taken charge and you are left with the decisions she has made. You can take your life back without losing your marriage. 



Mortie said:


> The decision to R or D is very hard now due to the children. I do love her more than anyting but I HATE what she has done to me and the kids. The kids are to young to understand any of this other than the fact that Mommy and Daddy are not getting along. *I know in my heart that she is remorseful and that she seems to be doing everything that she can today to make things right.* My problem is that I feel like a push over for trying to R. She didnt have any problem p***ing on me 22 years ago and lying about it. She didnt worry about passing on a disease to me. All she thought about back then was herself. She didnt think about hurting me whe she started talking behind the scenes on a forum with POSOM for the last 2 to 3 years. The old me would have said he** NO to any kind of R. I feel like I have a "kick me" sign on my back for going through R.



You know she is doing what she needs to do as a faithful and remorseful spouse. Time to work on you getting stronger. You will notice a change as you take charge of you. It will mean more responsibility and work, but I believe a happier relationship and a more secure one, in the long run.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> It's her cake and she doesn't want to give it up or away to anyone!


I knew I had to try to R, I HAD to or I would've regretted it forever (for my kid's). But man, I should've known instantly when she only wanted me back after I was with someone else that this is one sick puppy. How messed up is that? She had gone and got a tattoo on her wrist with my initials on it (AFTER she left - whack, right?) and was livid when she found out I slept with another woman. 

I invited her over to comfort her (yes, I was a nice guy), and ONLY to comfort her, because I saw she was in pain and that was my instinct. It was after that night she said "I really felt safe with you, and I now believe you can truly forgive me for what I've done" and wanted to R. It was 10 weeks of hysterical bonding and utter inner turmoil for me. I fought so hard everyday to make it work, but it was killing me.

Our kids were ecstatic when we told them we were back together. 10 weeks later when I decided I couldn't/didn't want to stay with her, it was a combination of extreme relief (I'm DONE with her) and complete anguish at having to tell my kids for a second time, their parents are splitting. My son, 8 at the time, said "Yeah, I've heard this before". It was gut wrenching.

I'll never forgive her for the pain she has caused my beautiful children. That heinous f*cking b*tich.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Mortie said:


> Mahike, I appreciate the post. I have thrown a hypothetical question to her. I asked how would you feel if I had slept with someone else or my ex. Her reply is I can't put myself in that situation because I'm not in that situation. I asked her how she would feel if someone had cheated on her? She said that she has no way of telling what that feels like because no one has ever cheated on her before. She claims that she is just unable to herself in a hypothetical situation. The truth is that it is just an excuse. She is a very jealous person so I know how she would react. She just won't say it.


That is what you have to deal with in R, you need her to be honest and you know right now she is not. Learning to talk through the BS and not just calling out someone's BS is a hard thing to do.

My wife would ask me why I was being so quite. My answer was you are not telling me the things I need to know or hear to work through something you created so there is nothing to talk about. Then she would stomp off for awhile and then come back and divulge some more. It took my wife over 18 months before I saw her really start to understand the pain she had caused and it was selfish. 

Once she starts to talk more about what you need to hear and or know the more the mind movies will start to pass. My wife at first thought sex would solve that problem for me wanting to talk about it and my mind movies. Sex without the communication only made things worse for me


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

brokenbythis said:


> Or in my case, H got the OW pregnant. Can't reconcile. Final nail in the coffin.


Yeah, well what if wife and OW are both preggers at the same time? Happened to a friend of my wife. It was hard to comprehend her sticking with him.

Then again, I think he married down so he can keep a woman at home and diddle other women freely.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Mortie said:


> I have read so many posts here about Reconciliation vs Divorce. It seems to me that most people say reconciliation is the better option. I don't quite understand this since the pain of her cheating really isn't getting any better even with IC and MC. The mind movies still keep playing and the anger is still there. Every time I see her at the computer or playing on her phone, I can't help but wonder. Reconciliation would be so much easier if I could just forget what happened and get rid of the anger. Am I suppose to forget? Will the anger go away? Maybe reconciliation is not the answer??


Statistics show that 78% of marriages go on after an affair.

Such a high percentage of marriages survive past an affair because many a WS just went after some side action with no intentions to divorce their BS. Then add to that the BS was not having an affair so they were not looking to end their marriage either.

Then add complications. You see young people advised to not recover a marriage because they are young and in their youth they will have their whole lives still in front of them to find a new wife that can be faithful. Also with this youth they will be no kids, minimum shared property. Two cars at most and some furniture. There will not be any house own with a mortgage, no kids being left to be raised in a broken home.

Though when you put what was said in the first paragraph where there was a high motivation to get side action though not get a divorce coupled with that people that are married for a long time.

You have a group of people that have kids, have large financial entanglements, house owner ship, neither the BS or the WS can survive on their salary alone, past history shared (good times), entwined families. All this things make people see the light and rethink that there is something to repair.

It is usually better to fix something then destroy it.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Healer said:


> I knew I had to try to R, I HAD to or I would've regretted it forever (for my kid's). But man, I should've known instantly when she only wanted me back after I was with someone else that this is one sick puppy. How messed up is that? She had gone and got a tattoo on her wrist with my initials on it (AFTER she left - whack, right?) and was livid when she found out I slept with another woman.
> 
> I invited her over to comfort her (yes, I was a nice guy), and ONLY to comfort her, because I saw she was in pain and that was my instinct. It was after that night she said "I really felt safe with you, and I now believe you can truly forgive me for what I've done" and wanted to R. It was 10 weeks of hysterical bonding and utter inner turmoil for me. I fought so hard everyday to make it work, but it was killing me.
> 
> ...


Oh hell, Healer, how horrible.  You would have always wondered if you didn' try though.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

theroad said:


> Statistics show that 78% of marriages go on after an affair.
> 
> Such a high percentage of marriages survive past an affair because many a WS just went after some side action with no intentions to divorce their BS. Then add to that the BS was not having an affair so they were not looking to end their marriage either.
> 
> ...


Completely disagree. Only 1 in 10 marriages are worth saving after a betrayal. Personally, I think too many people (esp. women) try to 'save' a marriage after cheating.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

theroad said:


> Statistics show that 78% of marriages go on after an affair.


That may be true but are they healthy or happy marriages? Just because they go on doesn't mean it is not a choice the forgiving partner doesn't regret making. Just because they go on doesn't mean they have healed their relationship. Personally I think very few relationships can truly recover after that kind of betrayal. I don't think I could do it. Every time I've taken back a cheating partner it was a complete nightmare, the trust was gone, my self-esteem was shattered and I knew the relationship was dead but tried my best to forgive and let it go. It hurt me too much and then they each went and cheated again anyway! What's the point? For me, there isn't any point. For some people they can find healing and have a successful R. I don't think I could ever be one of those people. The trust would be gone and staying would just make me paranoid and upset. Sex is revolting when you're wondering if you're about to expose yourself to disease because your cheating partner doesn't respect you enough to protect you from that.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

mahike said:


> Mortie the act may have been years ago but this is still pretty new to you. Have you told her how you are feeling? R is a long road. She has had years to come to terms with what she has done and you have just started down that road.
> 
> The mind movies do get better with time. I still do have those moments and we have been in real R about two years.
> 
> Ask her how she would react if she knew you had sex with someone she knew? Really talk about your feelings about your mind movies, trust and sex with her. That is the only way it is going to work.


I did ask that question and her reply was "You haven't done it because no one will have you!"


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

Horizon said:


> I did ask that question and her reply was "You haven't done it because no one will have you!"


Tell her "Well, the skank I married did."


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

theroad said:


> Statistics show that 78% of marriages go on after an affair.
> 
> Such a high percentage of marriages survive past an affair because many a WS just went after some side action with no intentions to divorce their BS. Then add to that the BS was not having an affair so they were not looking to end their marriage either.
> 
> ...


That number is waaaaay off. And it is often (not always) better to leave a cheater considering they now know what they suspected: That they can cheat and be allowed to stay in the marriage. 

So... whats the likelihood it will happen again?

High.

I agree its better to fix something if it still has value. But i also believe a marriage with most (not all) cheaters, has little value.

I think there are ways to find value like kids, financial damage, and history. But they can also be excuses.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

MissFroggie said:


> That may be true but are they healthy or happy marriages? Just because they go on doesn't mean it is not a choice the forgiving partner doesn't regret making. Just because they go on doesn't mean they have healed their relationship. Personally I think very few relationships can truly recover after that kind of betrayal. I don't think I could do it. Every time I've taken back a cheating partner it was a complete nightmare, the trust was gone, my self-esteem was shattered and I knew the relationship was dead but tried my best to forgive and let it go. It hurt me too much and then they each went and cheated again anyway! What's the point? For me, there isn't any point. For some people they can find healing and have a successful R. I don't think I could ever be one of those people. The trust would be gone and staying would just make me paranoid and upset. Sex is revolting when you're wondering if you're about to expose yourself to disease because your cheating partner doesn't respect you enough to protect you from that.


This has been my experience generally speaking. But there is so much entanglement - financially, children - that we are stuck. I have toughed it out for 10 months now since DDay and grown considerably but the fact is the betrayal does not leave you.

The fact that there is no evidence of reconciliation, no physical intimacy of any description says it all. This is co-existence. 

It's funny how my WS is not interested in intimacy, how she said last year, after DDay - "I don't care if I never have sex again" as though it was the last thing on her mind and yet her affair exposed the fact that there is a fire there waiting to be lit.

R or D? Try L for Limboland if you are going nowhere but hanging on to the notion that you are in R. I went through that and finally identified my place as Co-E. At least I'm focusing on me and my children. I virtually don't worry about her sh!t at all - however we do unite as a family when we need to. We stick when things get a bit heavy.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

illwill said:


> That number is waaaaay off. And it is often (not always) better to leave a cheater considering they now know what they suspected: That they can cheat and be allowed to stay in the marriage.
> 
> So... whats the likelihood it will happen again?
> 
> ...


or fear.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

Horizon said:


> This has been my experience generally speaking. But there is so much entanglement - financially, children - that we are stuck. I have toughed it out for 10 months now since DDay and grown considerably but the fact is the betrayal does not leave you.
> 
> The fact that there is no evidence of reconciliation, no physical intimacy of any description says it all. This is co-existence.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry that you are going through that and feeling like that. It must be such a mix of emotions, confusion, frustrations and pain. Each time I have given more chances it has been Limboland - I just wasn't smart enough to realise it wasn't worth trying again. Having tried before I can not imagine doing it again...but never say never...I'm too soft by far and if I was with someone who was genuinely remorseful and went through all the steps in R outlined on TAM then maybe it would be possible. When it wasn't like that though and it was all rug-swept and all me forgiving them and them carrying on as usual (and just carrying on!) it stood no chance. 

That's why I asked the OP about the steps she had made and it seems she has not done very much at all  After an affair it isn't about 50/50 effort any more. Mortie, she should be giving you at least 60 to your 40.

I wish I had perfect answers and that if someone said they wanted to stay they would really mean it completely with all the work that needs to be done on their part too in order for the relationship to really stand a chance of being mended. It's so complicated when there are children and money and all kinds of other things going on, work, families, friends, fear and all the other emotions too. It's a situation where it is a case of not working out the right choice but working out the least bad choice.

I write lists but there are lots of other ways to help weigh up the best decisions, so this is just one of the ways I'd try. Writing lists of pros and cons for EACH person you care for - this may or may not include the WS. Ask questions, if finance is a concern speak to a solicitor about it or the bank or whoever you need to to get whatever help and advice you need to weigh up different options. I wish it was straightforward, but it's not and like Horizon you might be able to be in Limboland while the kids grow older or until finances improve etc or you might find peace and a successful R (although I don't think that is going to be possible until WS actually starts owning what she did and being more considerate and compassionate...not to mention remorseful) or you might find the pros of leaving are better than you thought (after you look at it and look into help). Every situation is different and I know I couldn't stay, but it's easier for me to say that because my situation is different.

We'll all help as much as we can.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Regret...a helluva thing. Got a text today from my stbxww:

"I'm really sorry for that person I became...I hope you are happy".

Almost makes me have some empathy for her. It's so sad. I can never, ever go back, even though I think she is truly remorseful and regretful. I don't really allow myself to remember the good times, or lament about what used to be my family. It's too painful. I've replaced all the good times with only bad memories, and what she became/ what she did. But I see her pain. It's very real...she sees the grass ain't only not greener, it's piss and sh*t stained - she had a good life with me.

I will never understand what went through her mind, the first time she had sex with that lowlife, knowing full well that moment in time was the end of her life, our life, together, that she would never get it back. What a waste (sorry for the threadjack).


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Perhaps because people are more certain about the unhappiness that divorce would be certain to bring than the potential happiness it might?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Healer said:


> Regret...a helluva thing. Got a text today from my stbxww:
> 
> "I'm really sorry for that person I became...I hope you are happy".
> 
> ...


This is a very understandable sentiment, Healer. Thank you for sharing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

@ Healer,

So sorry for you. You will find happiness again. I know it. 

Sometimes, I think they just think their spouse will understand. I mean, how could the BS not understand.  They were miserable and just HAD to do something. That person gave them what they needed at that moment. The BS can understand, can't they? sheesh......

You will do well. I have faith.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> @ Healer,
> 
> So sorry for you. You will find happiness again. I know it.
> 
> ...


Thanks 'nuf. My WW was a bit different in her approach than most stories I see here. Hers wasn't exactly an exit affair...she had an affair for 8 or 9 months (that I know of). The affair ended before I found out - and she left because the guilt was eating her alive, and she knew I would never forgive her for what she did. 

She accused me of cheating for our entire 16 year relationship (I never did). I could not, no matter what I did or didn't do, put her fears aside. She left me, and didn't say why. 3 days later I FINALLY opened my eyes and asked if there was another man - I approached it gently because I didn't want to scare her off and never find out. Her actual response was "does it matter?". Does it matter. Does it matter if I cheated on you, after I spent 16 years accusing you of cheating on me. DOES IT MATTER.

She said she thought over and over for ways to make it work, but knew I was "the kind of man that would never forgive her for it". Of course I thought I could, or needed to try. I remember once, after we'd been separated for a week or 2, I texted her "I will fight". She replied "You will lose". Damn, that was heavy.

She spent the 10 weeks of our false R in utter fear of me leaving her. She held on so tight, she saw I was trying to forgive her, and thought for a moment I could, after I comforted her that time after I slept with another woman. She begged and begged me to keep fighting, but said she knew I always had 1 foot out the door, which I did. The first time I came home after I decided I couldn't continue, I looked at her and shook my head. She lost it and literally physically pinned me down and yelled at me that I had to keep fighting for us. I relented only because I felt trapped. A few days later I texted her saying I wasn't coming home, that this time I really was ending it. She begged for hours, tracked me down and physically accosted me, trying to prevent me from leaving. I had to pin her down and threaten to call the police. Only then did she relent, and said "I had to fight". That was the end.

Painful reliving that.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Healer said:


> Thanks 'nuf. My WW was a bit different in her approach than most stories I see here. Hers wasn't exactly an exit affair...she had an affair for 8 or 9 months (that I know of). The affair ended before I found out - and she left because the guilt was eating her alive, and she knew I would never forgive her for what she did.
> 
> She accused me of cheating for our entire 16 year relationship (I never did). I could not, no matter what I did or didn't do, put her fears aside. She left me, and didn't say why. 3 days later I FINALLY opened my eyes and asked if there was another man - I approached it gently because I didn't want to scare her off and never find out. Her actual response was "does it matter?". Does it matter. Does it matter if I cheated on you, after I spent 16 years accusing you of cheating on me. DOES IT MATTER.
> 
> ...


Mine basically stalked my friends and family to try to stop divorce from completing. Finally my Mom had to threaten a restraining order.

Really sad stuff.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

@Healer - in reading your posts I just went through so many emotions it is unreal! Anger and hurt at that text - the text should have been written and deleted not sent. It was unfair and unloving...or was it desperate? Emotion turn again. Then what you said about the text between you - 'I will fight' then 'You will lose' I literally gasped out loud. Did she think you would fight against her or for her, was she saying you'll lose if you fight her or lose if you fight for her? Not being able to forgive and more on, her accusations for 16 years while you were faithful only to say 'Does it matter?' when she was unfaithful. OMG the whole thing, so heartbreaking. You are so like me, the ones who want to be strong enough to forgive but just can't, who put up with years of questioning and get it flung back. You're stronger than you think and you will heal and you will feel calm inside. This will stop hurting (and now I'm struggling to type because my eyes are filled with tears - because I know it's true), you really will stop hurting so deeply over this and it will be a terrible scar but only a scar. Keep going hon, keep going. Your posts have really moved me and I sincerely wish you the very best.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

As for stats, I read that 25% of men can R, and 45% of women can R. So it depends on your source. 

My h cheated with his best friend's widow. Ironically this same woman had cheated ON his best friend early on in their marriage.

And my h. consoled his friend through the A. and he SAW how his friend had life long doubts and triggers, and never really was convinced of his wife's love until the day he died from cancer at age 49.

This was the same woman my ex cheated with. The one that had cheated on his buddy. 

Did his friend do the right thing by taking her back? I don't think so. He stayed 'for the children'. But I saw a man who was never the same, who went through the motions of life. 

Maybe the question should be: do we get over it regardless of whether we R or D?


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

You have to work on yourself whether you D or R.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Fenix said:


> Completely disagree. Only 1 in 10 marriages are worth saving after a betrayal. Personally, I think too many people (esp. women) try to 'save' a marriage after cheating.


Opinion that only 1 out of 10 marriages are worth saving does not compare with the fact that 78% of marriages survive an affair.

Surviving an affair can yield a recovered marriage that is better then pre affair. Though the work has to be done. Sadly some stay the same.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

theroad, have you been cheated on? Not sure of your story.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

theroad said:


> Opinion that only 1 out of 10 marriages are worth saving does not compare with the fact that 78% of marriages survive an affair.
> 
> Surviving an affair can yield a recovered marriage that is better then pre affair. Though the work has to be done. Sadly some stay the same.


Again, your number is off. A MSN living study with The Journal of Marital and Family Therapy puts it at 31%.

That number is likely off also. Point is whatever belief you have you can always find a study that backs it up. 

And just because the marriage still exist does not mean it is good.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

MissFroggie said:


> @Healer - in reading your posts I just went through so many emotions it is unreal! Anger and hurt at that text - the text should have been written and deleted not sent. It was unfair and unloving...or was it desperate? Emotion turn again. Then what you said about the text between you - 'I will fight' then 'You will lose' I literally gasped out loud. Did she think you would fight against her or for her, was she saying you'll lose if you fight her or lose if you fight for her? Not being able to forgive and more on, her accusations for 16 years while you were faithful only to say 'Does it matter?' when she was unfaithful. OMG the whole thing, so heartbreaking. You are so like me, the ones who want to be strong enough to forgive but just can't, who put up with years of questioning and get it flung back. You're stronger than you think and you will heal and you will feel calm inside. This will stop hurting (and now I'm struggling to type because my eyes are filled with tears - because I know it's true), you really will stop hurting so deeply over this and it will be a terrible scar but only a scar. Keep going hon, keep going. Your posts have really moved me and I sincerely wish you the very best.


Thank you Miss, your post was very kind. She meant I would lose as in I wouldn't be able to forgive her and we would still be over. She kept telling me that no matter how bad I wanted to R, she knew I was the type of man who couldn't get past it. She was right - she does know me well.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Healer,

Your story has similarities to mine. My exWW told me that she had the PA because she was sure I had been cheating. I never came close. No EAs or any physical cheating for 23 years.

She also kept telling me during the R that she loved me enough to let me go. This was a year after the ILYBNILWY speech.

Ironically she FREAKED OUT when I moved out. She filed for D before I could even get the papers for mediation. She called my Mom, 2 sisters, 2 brothers, and told my sons that I was cheating and she was divorcing me. My MIL and FIL had let me stay with them for 5 weeks during the end of her affair, prior to me knowing the depth of the A. She had them convinced that I deserved it, and that I had cheated on her within 2 months after I decided to move out.

Last month she called me about some insurance stuff. I haven't talked to her for about a year. She tells me she is getting remarried, but that she will always love me. 

Wacko. It is hard to believe some people can seem so loving, yet are so messed-up.

Whew! So glad I am back in the saddle with a better woman.


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## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

I have to say, the majority of marriages that survive affairs (in my limited personal experience) do so at great expense to the betrayed spouse. That person almost always makes tremendous personal sacrifices and lives with awful hurt to "stay in the marriage."

There are reasons why people do it, but their own personal happiness and fulfillment and peace of mind aren't usually the reasons.

One I know stayed because she feared the personal embarrassment of being a divorced woman. This in a community where it would have been unexpected but not that uncommon.

One I know stayed because he is in fear of what would happen to his children ( and also the mother of his children ) if he were not in the picture. There is mental illness at work here (BP and BPD... double whammy).

Mostly, I'd say, if you're young, have no children, and have only been married a short time, bail. and start over.

best to all,
FH


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Healer,
> 
> Your story has similarities to mine. My exWW told me that she had the PA because she was sure I had been cheating. I never came close. No EAs or any physical cheating for 23 years.
> 
> ...


Wow, what a gal! I'm not sure of the specifics my stbxw told her folks/others, but I know it was really bad. I was most certainly demonized. I used to be really close with her folks, and before dday/when she left, things changed significantly. My mom told me during our false R that she used to talk **** about me to her all the time, to the point my mom had to say to her "I need you to stop talking down about my son to me". 

The day she left, before I knew of the affair, I called her mom and asked if she knew what she was doing, is this what she really wants? She was COLD AS ICE and said "yup". Man that was a brutal time. I was so shocked, so stunned...and felt hated, and I had no idea why, or what I had done. At that time, nobody in her family or her close friends knew of the affair. She had lied to EVERYONE and alienated everyone. Her sister and mother didn't talk to her for a long time after they found out. Her friends were stunned too. This guy was the lowest of the low - a bonafide thug and male wh*re. She turned into a completely different person, all strung out on coke and booze. Working in the bar industry late into the night, she could hide it fairly easily.

Sometimes when I think about it, the brutality of it all, the level of depravity, lying, deceit and cruelty, I still don't believe it. It's like it happened to someone else.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Well, unless your grotesquely obese, and badly deformed, unable to work, owe a lot of money, and are physically abusive...thus you cant possibly find someone else...it is NOT!!!

Seriously...just my opinion...marriage is an agreement and a contract, fidelity is on the top 5 of that....and once its broken, its over...first year law student has to take contracts and will tell you how easily a contract can be rendered null and void...

thats just the legal part...how can anyone move on with someone who broke their vows, had sex with another, lied/covered up/manipulated/deceived for a significant length of time, and ONLY chooses you over the AP because the AP probably dumped them once they got caught...ugh...I cant imagine even considering this....

I look at an affair and a one night stand differently...I could see moving beyond ONE mistake, especially if honesty and transparency were IMMEDIATE! 

But a long drawn out affair and all the deception, and then all the work the BS has to do to get the WS out of the fog and doing the lifting?? Why on earth would you do that??? too many fishies out there...sorry

and dont say the kids...trying to R around children can NOT be whats automatically best for them...kids are smart, they WILL pick up on it

had my dad forgiven my mom and moved forward, I would have lost all respect for him...


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> Well, unless your grotesquely obese, and badly deformed, unable to work, owe a lot of money, and are physically abusive...thus you cant possibly find someone else...it is NOT!!!
> 
> Seriously...just my opinion...marriage is an agreement and a contract, fidelity is on the top 5 of that....and once its broken, its over...first year law student has to take contracts and will tell you how easily a contract can be rendered null and void...
> 
> ...


Fear is the dominant emotion in the human species. Indeed it trumps love. But i am a cynic.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> Well, unless your grotesquely obese, and badly deformed, unable to work, owe a lot of money, and are physically abusive...thus you cant possibly find someone else...it is NOT!!!
> 
> Seriously...just my opinion...marriage is an agreement and a contract, fidelity is on the top 5 of that....and once its broken, its over...first year law student has to take contracts and will tell you how easily a contract can be rendered null and void...
> 
> ...


Even with those flaws you can STILL find someone.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

A few things jumped out at me while reading through this thread. There seem to be some generalizations being made about recovering from infidelity, reconciliation, and what that actually means.

Kids, finances, property, and standing in the community are all poor reasons to try and rebuild a marriage after infidelity for various reasons covered at length on TAM. Love, and a deep desire on both sides to examine the breakdown in the relationship, as well as a willingness/desire to build something better, should be the motivating reasons for attempting R.

Pain, anger, mind movies, and triggers do go away. All the way away if the proper steps have been taken to heal. While you will most certainly always remember the turbulent times, you will not reflect negatively on those times forever.

You dont have to be on your death bed to feel certain that the issue was resolved. Most people have some good productive faithful years before things break down, and once they are back on track, those years begin to accumulate again. We have to make the choice to trust in others on a daily basis, every human on this planet is capable of doing something bad, but we dont live our lives not trusting others by default. We have faith that drivers will stop at red lights, even though they sometimes break the law by speeding. Same with a spouse. We are more than the sum of our actions.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

It is silly to have faith in the unfaithful.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Healer said:


> Only you can decide if you can or want to R. ...The choice is yours and yours alone....if you decide you want to stay with her, you will live a very different life, just like if you D. Your trust is gone, gone for good. A part of you has died and it will never fully come back. Can you live with the consequences of her cheating, and live with her too? I couldn't do it.
> 
> Divorce is scary, but living a lie is even scarier.
> 
> Best to you whatever you decide.



So well said...so much to think about...such a difficult road.

-sammy


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

theroad said:


> Opinion that only 1 out of 10 marriages are worth saving does not compare with the fact that 78% of marriages survive an affair.
> 
> Surviving an affair can yield a recovered marriage that is better then pre affair. Though the work has to be done. Sadly some stay the same.


Please provide a link to a credible source to back-up your statement


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

If I had a business partner, and he ripped me off, would I want to keep working with him? 

I often thought of that after my ex's affair.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

BradWesley said:


> Please provide a link to a credible source to back-up your statement


There is a study but if you actually read everything, it is under 50 percent if it is a PA.

In the US it is under 40 percent.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

jim123 said:


> There is a study but if you actually read everything, it is under 50 percent if it is a PA.
> 
> In the US it is under 40 percent.


Exactly.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

illwill said:


> It is silly to have faith in the unfaithful.



While I agree in theory. It is silly to have faith in so many things. If I analyze and look at statistics it paralyzes me. I wouldn't do anything at all (fly, drive a car, invest for the future).

Sometimes, you go just have to go with your gut and take a gamble. It's a huge gamble to R, and D does not seem like a Swiss picnic. In the end I'll pay the price and move forward. At least if I give R an honest effort. I won't wonder "what if". D is and has always been an option. I'm not a prisoner.

Again, no one size fits all answer. We all have different situations and factors that feel like the right path for each of us. It's not up to me to judge others for their choices. I might not relate. But I'll try my best not to judge.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Paladin said:


> Pain, anger, mind movies, and triggers do go away. All the way away if the proper steps have been taken to heal. While you will most certainly always remember the turbulent times, you will not reflect negatively on those times forever.


So when one remembers the turbulent times, the moaning sex their spouse had with someone else, you mean to tell me they now look upon that fondly? 

If they "most certainly ALWAYS remember the turbulent times", then they WILL reflect on them negatively, because there is nothing positive about it.

Now I won't disagree that the triggers and thoughts become few and far between, or that the recurring thoughts no longer become quite so painful, but not negatively reflecting on those times ever again? I don't believe that is possible.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

Paladin;7406569[B said:


> ]Pain, anger, mind movies, and triggers do go away. All the way away if the proper steps have been taken to heal.[/B] While you will most certainly always remember the turbulent times, you will not reflect negatively on those times forever./
> 
> 
> > I don't agree that they go away. Mr. Adams has stated that after 30 years he still thinks about his wife's affair. I think they will stay with a person forever.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

R is giving another chance to the WS to stab you in the back. If they can do it once, why can't they do it again?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

jim123 said:


> There is a study but if you actually read everything, it is under 50 percent if it is a PA.
> 
> In the US it is under 40 percent.


"The problem with statistics, and in particular, statistics you find on the internet, is that anybody can make them up and put them out there". ~Albert Einstein


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Healer said:


> "The problem with statistics, *and in particular, statistics you find on the internet,* is that anybody can make them up and put them out there". ~*Albert Einstein*


:scratchhead: Let's see, Einstein died in, hmm '57 or sometime in the 1950's? Al G*re invented the internet, , in the '90's? Something doesn't add up.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> :scratchhead: Let's see, Einstein died in, hmm '57 or sometime in the 1950's? Al G*re invented the internet, , in the '90's? Something doesn't add up.


Trust me, I read it on the internet.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Word.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

WhiteRaven said:


> R is giving another chance to the WS to stab you in the back. If they can do it once, why can't they do it again?


I pretty much live by what you said here. That's me.

However there are exceptions to this/my rule. I think a WS can make good on never cheating again. I think they are rare, but they are there. Like Mrs. JA and EI.

But for me, I won't take the chance.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

jim123 said:


> There is a study but if you actually read everything, it is under 50 percent if it is a PA.
> 
> In the US it is under 40 percent.


Could you link THAT study as well? Hell, let's just make sh!t up and have a link party here.

But, to be fair to theroad, I have read that 70% number in a few places....Dr. Harley @ MB being one of them. I would put his credibility against any online study or article that could be cited. I'll check tomorrow and see if I can find it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Healer said:


> Trust me, I read it on the internet.


:lol:


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

vellocet said:


> So when one remembers the turbulent times, the moaning sex their spouse had with someone else, you mean to tell me they now look upon that fondly?
> 
> If they "most certainly ALWAYS remember the turbulent times", then they WILL reflect on them negatively, because there is nothing positive about it.
> 
> Now I won't disagree that the triggers and thoughts become few and far between, or that the recurring thoughts no longer become quite so painful, but not negatively reflecting on those times ever again? I don't believe that is possible.


Thats a very binary interpretation of my point. Just because someone no longer negatively reflects on an issue, does not mean that they embrace the 100% polar opposite viewpoint. We get a choice to let something bother us, or to let that something bother us less, or not bother us at all. If you spin you car out on the freeway and wreck it beyond repair, you wont live the rest of you life dwelling on how crappy that event was. You wont stop driving all together in favor of using a horse or bike. You will eventually accept the fact that you wrecked your car and you will move on. I suppose you might not, and sped the rest of your life thinking about how crappy this all is, but I would call that giving up.

When you make love with your partner, are you thinking of all the other people she/he has been with in the past? Or is your mind more focused on how awesome it feels to be getting laid?

There must be examples in your life of things that used to bother you, but no longer do. I made a total fool of myself asking a half thought out question in a public forum when I was a teenager. The event was locally televised. When I used to reflect on that day, I would feel all sorts of negative stuff and beat myself up. Now, I laugh my ass off and pray to the heavens to make that the worst thing I ever have to deal with in life. By comparison to some of the stuff I've dealt with, that day now seems like I got a BJ from a rock star.

We can only truly control one thing in life, ourselves, and it is completely up to us to determine how much of an impact we allow something to have on us, and how we choose to reflect on it in the future.

With respect to the comment about MR. Adams and him still thinking about his wife's A 30 years later. He himself has stated that there were many things that they could have done better in R, and that their resources for coping with the event were rally limited when it occurred and they started the journey to R.

He said the final piece of his puzzle fell into place a few years ago because he didnt know what he needed to ask for from his wife to finish healing. I wonder what his viewpoint on the issue will be in 5 years time?

I hope I've cleared up my point a bit, I'd be happy to comment further if need be.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I read an article that states 25% of marriages survive infidelity 40% of the time. They stated that was only 50% true 20% of the time though.

Seriously, statistics dont mean crap. Its an individual thing. No statistic is going to matter in my R because I'm not you or any other person. Stop worrying about statistics because numbers lie.
If you take 2 tests and score a zero on one, and 100 on the other, your average is 50. Truth be told, you're no where near a 50, you were either perfect or horrible, not average.

Bottom line, you need a forgiving BS and a remorseful WS. If you dont have either, it will never work. Even if you have both, it still might not work. Its been less than 4 months for me and, relatively speaking, I'm doing well. I will never forget and a huge part of me died, but I'm trying to make the best out of a horrible situation and keep my family together.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

hawx20. Nailed.It.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Actually...the final piece of the puzzle fell into place for us this past October...
We will never forget...nor will it ever go away. But it will not define us as individuals or us as a couple.

I actually hate the labels...ww bs r ....here's the bottom line..we have been married almost 42 years. We are married. We reconciled 30 years ago after I had an affair. If we divorce at this point or at some point in the future..it is because we have failed at something now...not because I cheated thirty years ago. I am not a ww...I will accept fww...and he is not a bs...maybe a fbs. But you have to understand...we were married 11 years when the infidelity occurred. It has been thirty years. How can something that happened thirty years ago define us? Every marriage has issues to deal with...it is a learning process. Life is a learning process. Our marriage is a culmination of a lifetime of experiences. Good and bad. 

Infidelity is the worse destruction a couple can experience or endure. We are the lucky ones...we chose to stay together. Has it had an effect...absolutely. You know the biggest one? We never take each other for granted. We appreciate what we have. When you almost lose the most important thing in your life...this relationship we have together....it is worth the fight to save it. Have we made mistakes along the way? Of course we have. It should not take thirty years to reach the place we are today. If we can help others to expedite the process that took so long...being here on tam is what we will do.

We are here to offer hope to those who want to keep their marriage. It is not a choice for all. Divorce is many times the best answer. 

I thank god everyday that we chose to stay together.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I guess I'll know if/when we make it when I dont have the affair define my marriage. Right now it does and I view dday as a large rift that separates my marriage/life. Everything is before and after dday.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Mr Adams viewed it the same way for years....ba...aa...
And I understand that. Time and love my friend...time and love


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I think that even if you completely recover there is still going to be the awareness of before and after--it becomes part of the history of your marriage.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

This may have already been said in this thread but there is no right answer. What matters is what works for you. What anyone else thinks including your spouse is irrelevant (assuming they are remorseful and want to R). 

Its up to you. R is better for some D is better for others. I assume you know yourself enough to know if you can or are even willing to forgive. If the answer is no. A fresh start might be best.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I pretty much live by what you said here. That's me.
> 
> However there are exceptions to this/my rule. I think a WS can make good on never cheating again. I think they are rare, but they are there. Like Mrs. JA and EI.
> 
> But for me, I won't take the chance.


To mention JA in the same class as EI is a disservice to EI. EI has owned what she has done.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Actually...the final piece of the puzzle fell into place for us this past October...
> We will never forget...nor will it ever go away. But it will not define us as individuals or us as a couple.
> 
> I actually hate the labels...ww bs r ....here's the bottom line..we have been married almost 42 years. We are married. We reconciled 30 years ago after I had an affair. If we divorce at this point or at some point in the future..it is because we have failed at something now...not because I cheated thirty years ago.


No way of separating what happened from back then and now.

Example:

Something that could happen now would of been worked through. But in combination of what happened in the past what is going on currently could not be over looked now.

Also how can someone call themselves a FWW when they describe their past affair in damage control words and their BH still uses less politically correct terms to name that affair?

That is still doing damage control.

Doing damage control is not owning anything. Nor earning that "F" in front of WW.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

theroad said:


> To mention JA in the same class as EI is a disservice to EI. EI has owned what she has done.


Please. You've been here before. To no purpose. To think that MrsJA has not owned what she's done is to have paid no attention whatsoever.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Actually...the final piece of the puzzle fell into place for us this past October...
> We will never forget...nor will it ever go away. But it will not define us as individuals or us as a couple.
> 
> I actually hate the labels...ww bs r ....here's the bottom line..we have been married almost 42 years. We are married. We reconciled 30 years ago after I had an affair. If we divorce at this point or at some point in the future..it is because we have failed at something now...not because I cheated thirty years ago. I am not a ww...I will accept fww...and he is not a bs...maybe a fbs. But you have to understand...we were married 11 years when the infidelity occurred. It has been thirty years. How can something that happened thirty years ago define us? Every marriage has issues to deal with...it is a learning process. Life is a learning process. Our marriage is a culmination of a lifetime of experiences. Good and bad.
> ...


Your spouse was betrayed, 11 years ago, 11 days ago.. you can't undo it. I hope in 30 years, my wife doesn't shift to saying it was a mistake.. or it was so long ago... it wasn't a mistake, it was a choice, and if it still hurts, then it hurts, regardless of how long ago it was.

Saying you 'almost lost the most important thing to you', sounds nice, but in reality, you almost threw it away, and it obviously wasn't so important at the time. This is something a BS, has to live with even 30 years later, that you could get to a point where you'd discard them. You could use the 'live and learn' excuse again in the future, life is long. Every marriage has issues to deal with, and a BS knows that they are dealing with a person that at one time created the biggest issue and hid it from them. Your affair wasn't a marriage issue, it was an affair.. even if you hate that label too.

I think you want to believe that if you do divorce, it won't be because of the affair... because you'd want to believe that, and not that it could be the root cause, and the thing that built up resentments or whatever.. It's easy to dismiss, but if I were your spouse, that kind of statement wouldn't comfort me.


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## Mortie (Dec 19, 2013)

2ntnuf, You asked who knew that she cheated on me? She told me that she she told the POSOM that she was talking to on another marriage forum. That hurt the most, she told him but didnt have the ba!!s enough to tell me, the one who spent the last 22 years of his life with her. Instead she told him while she was trying to help him with his marriage. What a laugh. I feel like a fool.

Mrs. John Adams, my wifes infedelity was 22 years ago. I just found out about it 6 months ago. Am I wrong for being upset about being lied to for 22 years? I do love her and I do believe that she loves me but I dont know how to get past this. I am positive that Mr John Adams didnt get over this in six months. How long did it take for him and do you and he still talk about it? Everytime I think about it, I get so angry. Does he still get angry?

By the way, I am reading NMMNG right now. I will pick up the other books too. Thanks for the recomendations


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Your spouse was betrayed, 11 years ago, 11 days ago.. you can't undo it. I hope in 30 years, my wife doesn't shift to saying it was a mistake.. or it was so long ago... it wasn't a mistake, it was a choice, and if it still hurts, then it hurts, regardless of how long ago it was.
> 
> Saying you 'almost lost the most important thing to you', sounds nice, but in reality, you almost threw it away, and it obviously wasn't so important at the time. This is something a BS, has to live with even 30 years later, that you could get to a point where you'd discard them. You could use the 'live and learn' excuse again in the future, life is long. Every marriage has issues to deal with, and a BS knows that they are dealing with a person that at one time created the biggest issue and hid it from them. Your affair wasn't a marriage issue, it was an affair.. even if you hate that label too.
> 
> I think you want to believe that if you do divorce, it won't be because of the affair... because you'd want to believe that, and not that it could be the root cause, and the thing that built up resentments or whatever.. It's easy to dismiss, but if I were your spouse, that kind of statement wouldn't comfort me.


You are absolutely correct...I almost threw it away..it was the worst possible thing I could ever have done. I made the choice to cheat and it will forever hurt. I am responsible for that pain. That is what a mistake is...something that should not have happened.( By the way my statement was have we made mistakes along the way....and I was referring to all the mistakes in our 42 year journey that we have made. I was not referring to the affair. I was mostly talking about the mistakes in the road to reconciliation.)I perfectly well know what I did and what I have done these past thirty years to help my husband heal from what I did. I confessed my affair on my own. I have shown him the remorse he needed to see and we are in the best place we have ever been in our relationship. 

My spouse and I have discussed it and we both agree...that's why I said it. To divorce now would not be because of my affair thirty years years. The root problem of a breakdown in a marriage could also be something that happened in the relationship BEFORE the affair. Of course I am 99.9% sure my marriage will never end in divorce so it is a moot point to discuss it with you.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Without posting my own dissertation, I will just give a concur to Mrs. Adams.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I think you want to believe that if you do divorce, it won't be because of the affair... because you'd want to believe that, and not that it could be the root cause, and the thing that built up resentments or whatever.. *It's easy to dismiss, but if I were your spouse, that kind of statement wouldn't comfort me.*


C'mon, Russell, you sound like you haven't read any of either Mr or Mrs. John Adams postings before. Mrs. Adams very clearly acknowledges that she made conscious choices that caused grave damage to the marriage, and Mr. Adams has been equally clear about how he has been able to forgive. He would be the first to say that there is nothing connected with Mrs. Adams' fully revealed and owned affair of 30 years ago that could end their marriage today, I'm sure.

I am a strong supporter of Mr and Mrs JA because it is they more than anyone else here (and there are many) who have helped me get to a better place in my own situation. 

John Adams, maybe that dissertation is in order after all.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Mr.& Mrs JA,

How long did it take before argument stopped leading back to the affair? Or did they never? 

-sammy


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Mortie said:


> Mrs. John Adams, my wifes infedelity was 22 years ago. I just found out about it 6 months ago. Am I wrong for being upset about being lied to for 22 years? I do love her and I do believe that she loves me but I dont know how to get past this. I am positive that Mr John Adams didnt get over this in six months. How long did it take for him and do you and he still talk about it? Everytime I think about it, I get so angry. Does he still get angry?


Mortie...my story is on my profile. I told my husband about my affair within a coupe of weeks. So we both were on the same time schedule for healing. I cannot imagine dealing with your wifes affair 22 years later. How very terrible for you. Is your wife remorseful? Do you now have all the details? You are only 6 months out...it is perfectly normal to be angry. I would say up to two years or even longer you can feel anger. John does not feel anger anymore...after 30 years....but he certainly can feel depression. We still talk about it....and my guess is we will talk about it forever. He will never get over it...he will always remember....but it does not consume him.

Please have your wife read the book in my signature.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Sammy...we had a couple of arguments in the very beginning and have never argued about it since. We are not fighters. We have talked about it for thirty years but have not fought about it.

For many years he would get depressed and I would offer to leave if that is what he needed. He would ask me to stay... But we never fought.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

Philat said:


> I think that even if you completely recover there is still going to be the awareness of before and after--it becomes part of the history of your marriage.


That was my point. Even if it's 50 years later, there will be days when you think about what happened.

There's a difference between letting it bother you and thinking about it. I don't believe a person ever forgets, and nor should they in my opinion.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

nickgtg said:


> That was my point. Even if it's 50 years later, there will be days when you think about what happened.
> 
> There's a difference between letting it bother you and thinking about it. I don't believe a person ever forgets, and nor should they in my opinion.


Nick, I agree with you. It does not consume you, but yes, you never forget.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> We still talk about it....and my guess is we will talk about it forever. He will never get over it...he will always remember....but it does not consume him.


You summed it up perfectly.


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## Mortie (Dec 19, 2013)

Thank you Mr and Mrs JA for your posts. 

Mrs JA, I will read the book you your signature page. Your story is incredible. I am so glad that you and Mr JA made it, it gives me hope. My wife is a researcher and avid reader. I will probably ask her to read it also. I would just like to preview it first. 

I still get triggered when she starts talking about internet forums or if I happen to see her on one. I suppose that will pass with time.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Yes you BOTH should read it...it is 97 pages of great information.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Your spouse was betrayed, 11 years ago, 11 days ago.. you can't undo it. I hope in 30 years, my wife doesn't shift to saying it was a mistake.. or it was so long ago... it wasn't a mistake, it was a choice, and if it still hurts, then it hurts, regardless of how long ago it was.
> 
> Saying you 'almost lost the most important thing to you', sounds nice, but in reality, you almost threw it away, and it obviously wasn't so important at the time. This is something a BS, has to live with even 30 years later, that you could get to a point where you'd discard them. You could use the 'live and learn' excuse again in the future, life is long. Every marriage has issues to deal with, and a BS knows that they are dealing with a person that at one time created the biggest issue and hid it from them. Your affair wasn't a marriage issue, it was an affair.. even if you hate that label too.
> 
> I think you want to believe that if you do divorce, it won't be because of the affair... because you'd want to believe that, and not that it could be the root cause, and the thing that built up resentments or whatever.. It's easy to dismiss, but if I were your spouse, that kind of statement wouldn't comfort me.


The truth.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

theroad said:


> The truth.


Nope.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mortie said:


> 2ntnuf, You asked who knew that she cheated on me? She told me that she she told the POSOM that she was talking to on another marriage forum. That hurt the most, she told him but didnt have the ba!!s enough to tell me, the one who spent the last 22 years of his life with her. Instead she told him while she was trying to help him with his marriage. What a laugh. I feel like a fool.
> 
> Mrs. John Adams, my wifes infedelity was 22 years ago. I just found out about it 6 months ago. *Am I wrong for being upset about being lied to for 22 years?* I do love her and I do believe that she loves me but I dont know how to get past this. I am positive that Mr John Adams didnt get over this in six months. How long did it take for him and do you and he still talk about it? Everytime I think about it, I get so angry. Does he still get angry?
> 
> By the way, I am reading NMMNG right now. I will pick up the other books too. Thanks for the recomendations


Mortie,

I also found out about my W's affair years after the fact. Being deceived for that amount of time is at least as bad as being cheated on in the first place. You are not alone. Look at the posts by confusedFather--he found out 25 years after.

You might be interested in this thread if you haven't read it already:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/172586-ws-bs-early-years.html

ETA: From the BW viewpoint look at Granny7


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You are absolutely correct...I almost threw it away..it was the worst possible thing I could ever have done. I made the choice to cheat and it will forever hurt. I am responsible for that pain. That is what a mistake is...something that should not have happened.( By the way my statement was have we made mistakes along the way....and I was referring to all the mistakes in our 42 year journey that we have made. I was not referring to the affair. I was mostly talking about the mistakes in the road to reconciliation.)I perfectly well know what I did and what I have done these past thirty years to help my husband heal from what I did. I confessed my affair on my own. I have shown him the remorse he needed to see and we are in the best place we have ever been in our relationship.
> 
> My spouse and I have discussed it and we both agree...that's why I said it. To divorce now would not be because of my affair thirty years years. The root problem of a breakdown in a marriage could also be something that happened in the relationship BEFORE the affair. Of course I am 99.9% sure my marriage will never end in divorce so it is a moot point to discuss it with you.


I have no desire to discuss the percent chance that you'll divorce.. or the 'something that happened' in your relationship, *BEFORE *the affair. I'm familiar with the list.. 

You're correct, it was a mistake.. but not the kind like "I was reaching and I hit you in the head by accident, sorry.." but more like "I was angry with you, so I slept with another person, bad choice I know, but hey, people make mistakes, I'm sorry but you'll never believe me again.."

I'm happy you're 99.9% sure, I hope I can get there some day.. I was 100% sure before my wife had her five year mistake with her coworker 'friend'. Numbers are funny things.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

There are a lot of hurting people here with different stories. They all have different circumstances and different outcomes.

In the case of the Adams family. We are willingly sharing our story. In reality, neither of us is looking for help or opinions on us. If our story helps someone good, if not, move along. You certainly have the right to disagree. However, we are living the story. We are both here. One of a handful of couples that both post. An affair is the most devastating thing that can happen to a marriage. You can choose to divorce, as many have and moved on to have a happy life or you can choose to reconcile. Regardless of choice, the fact that your partner cheated does not change.

So, you can choose to try to come here and learn and work with your spouse in a way that works for the both of you or you can come here and project your problems onto others because you do not have the Kaunas to face your unfaithful spouse.

My wife and I are in a good place. The best place in our married life. I really do not need someone's opinion if that is true, my wife and I know that fact.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> My wife and I are in a good place. The best place in our married life. I really do not need someone's opinion if that is true, my wife and I know that fact.


And in the end, that's all that matters.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> So, you can choose to try to come here and learn and work with your spouse in a way that works for the both of you or *you can come here and project your problems onto others because you do not have the Kaunas to face your unfaithful spouse.*
> 
> My wife and I are in a good place. The best place in our married life. I really do not need someone's opinion if that is true, my wife and I know that fact.


Hammer, meet nail.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

theroad said:


> To mention JA in the same class as EI is a disservice to EI. EI has owned what she has done.



While, it's always encouraging to read that someone has faith that I have owned the choice I made to betray my husband, my children, my vows, and myself, it is discouraging when I see BS's, or anyone, actually, comparing WS's to one another and putting one in a more favorable light. 

There are so many unique circumstances in each situation, that comparisons serve no useful purpose. The one common factor in every infidelity is that they are all terribly painful and destructive to everyone whom they touch. 

Today, I can honestly say that I wish I had never betrayed my husband. When I first posted on TAM, 21 months ago, and 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day, I could honestly say that I was sorry that I had hurt him, but I could not say that I was sorry that it happened. Because, at the time, I was not. I was very angry, bitter, and resentful. I completely blamed my husband for my decision to have a long term EA/PA. My story about the circumstances before, during, and after the infidelity has never changed, but my perception of everything about it has changed since then. 

I only wish that, short of turning back time and choosing to remain faithful, despite what was, then, a very unhappy marriage, that I could say I had demonstrated, even a small fraction of the courage, the humility, and the remorse that Mrs. John Adams demonstrated, almost immediately, after her A, thirty years ago. She made a full confession to her husband within three weeks. It is very unlikely that, without a confession, he would have ever known. She withheld no details and has, by Mr. Adams own admission, been nothing short of a faithful, devoted, and loving wife, mother, and now, grandmother since that time. 

Mr. Adams posted on TAM last year because, despite having had a happy marriage these last 30 years, there was still "something" missing. He seemed to have an unknown void in his soul regarding his wife's infidelity. After sharing his story and receiving feedback from TAM, I believe he finally realized what he needed. He needed to know that Mrs. Adams understood that he was not at fault for her choice to betray him. Despite whatever void in her life that she may have been trying to fill with her A, he did not deserve to be betrayed. He needed to know that she didn't blame him for her choice. He knew that she was sorry, he knew that she loved him, he knew that she had been a loving wife for the last 30 years, but he needed to know that she did not feel justified in her actions.

With the encouragement of TAM, late last year, he told her what the final piece of the puzzle was for him to heal. He asked her to read a book that had been recommended by someone on TAM. She did not become angry or defensive, nor did she suggest that it had been 30 years and that it was time for him let it go and put it behind them, already. She, immediately, read the book and was grateful for this opportunity to give this man, whom she dearly loves, the closure he needed. She hadn't intentionally been withholding anything from him. She was remorseful, she did love him, and she has been a loving, faithful, and devoted wife every single day for the last 30 years. She didn't know what else to give him until he knew what he needed. The moment he told her, she sprang into action and what had been a very happy marriage all these years, despite the infidelity, has now become even more beautiful. 

Now, they are, both, here, on TAM, sharing their story and I think that there are many of us, B1 and myself, included, who are incredibly inspired by them. It gives meaning to the phrase "The best is yet to come."


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

My sweet sweet friend...You are so spot on. You are so perceptive...it just amazes me. I think you worded it better than I can word it myself.

John did not know what he needed but it was something....and TAM did help him figure it out...and I was then able to give him what he needed. *He needed me to understand the magnitude of his pain and that I was the one responsible for it.*

You know...it really doesn't matter to me what the people here at TAM think of me. I know the truth....I live it every day. And the only person I have to please is John. John is satisfied that I have given him what he needs. We are so in tune that it is amazing. When I say we are better than we have ever been...i mean it. 

I want others to know that this is possible. I want others to know there is hope. I want others to know that sometimes even though we have pain and sadness and disappointments in life...with time and love...there can be a brighter tomorrow.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> There are a lot of hurting people here with different stories. They all have different circumstances and different outcomes.
> 
> In the case of the Adams family. We are willingly sharing our story. In reality, neither of us is looking for help or opinions on us. If our story helps someone good, if not, move along. You certainly have the right to disagree. However, we are living the story. We are both here. One of a handful of couples that both post. An affair is the most devastating thing that can happen to a marriage. You can choose to divorce, as many have and moved on to have a happy life or you can choose to reconcile. Regardless of choice, the fact that your partner cheated does not change.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you're in a good place. 

I am in R, I am in a good place considering I'm only 10 months or so out.. I thank people like EI for help here on TAM and for the success I'm having in my R. If your comment about Kaunas is directed towards me, and I'm guessing it is, you obviously don't know my story. 

If you dont' want opinions, perhaps message forums on the internet aren't a good place to hang out...


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Actually, I was not talking to you. You are correct I do not know your story. So, I am not commenting or making opinions on your story. I am just saying I am not asking opinions on my story, since my story is my story, and my wife is here also so we both know our story.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

3putt said:


> Could you link THAT study as well? Hell, let's just make sh!t up and have a link party here.
> 
> But, to be fair to theroad, I have read that 70% number in a few places....Dr. Harley @ MB being one of them. I would put his credibility against any online study or article that could be cited. I'll check tomorrow and see if I can find it.


Infidelity Statistics | Statistic Brain

There you are. However, we know that all these are a guess and we do not know the true number.

Even our D stats are an estimate. They are somewhere between the low 40 to 50 percent.

To say that only 20% of A's result in a D would mean that M without an A would have to have a D rate well over 60 %. That means if there is not an A in your M you a three times more likely to D than if you did not.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Actually, I was not talking to you. You are correct I do not know your story. So, I am not commenting or making opinions on your story. I am just saying I am not asking opinions on my story, since my story is my story, and my wife is here also so we both know our story.


Ah, good to know, I don't want to offend or upset, just like to get people thinking.. I've always been one to play the devils advocate, and I thought there were some good points made on both sides. 

As for not asking for opinions.. your wife is a spouse that cheated, on a forum that's 99.9% spouses that have been betrayed.. there may be times when something she types is taken the wrong way, or rubs someone the wrong way... they'll hear the word 'mistake' and even if it's out of context, they might say 'oh god, here we go again'... They might get tired of hearing her tell of how she confessed, or just her general tone. That's the nature of the Internet. It's what happens when you open yourself up and pour your soul out in an open forum. You can try to meter it, but the only way to avoid others opinions, would be to not read responses. Not everyone is going to agree with you, or 'like' your posts. 

Many here aren't 30 years out from the betrayal, but are still trying to regain balance after just recently discovering affairs. Only a handful of us have spouses that are remorseful and working hard to repair the damage that was done. I'm sure there is some projection going on. How could there not be. I'm not sure projection is the result of not having a pair, I think it's just natural to put others stories in a context that you can understand. Others don't know your story, they know their story, so yes, they'll project. Something to consider when posting on the Internet. Although it does sound pretty tough to call out someone for not having Kahunas on the Internet, that's takes some huge ones...


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

I am not attacking R in any way shape or form. It is very difficult and both the BS and WS must be committed. To say 80% can do it is to minimize what it is going to take and how special those who do R are.

The 80% number does sell services. Any good MC will tell you a M with an A is less likely to survive than on without. So unless the D rate is less than 20%, the number can not be correct.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> come again??? Could you translate that for me dear jim??? oh never mind...3putts smarter than me...he will figure it out!:scratchhead:


There are a growing number of MC's who are saying that 80% of Marriages with an A survive. This is coming up more and more.

There is no mathematical way that can be accurate.

What we are seeing is more and more articles that A's are no big deal and everyone is doing them.

I see different data that shows that a A is the leading indictor that a marriage will not last. To last it takes people like you and Mr A and EI/B1. The pain of these A's are great and the effort to overcome is bigger than anything you have done before.
t


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I'm sure there is some projection going on. How could there not be. I'm not sure projection is the result of not having a pair, I think it's just natural to put others stories in a context that you can understand. Others don't know your story, they know their story, so yes, they'll project.


I'm definitely projecting in my reaction to the Adams' story. I'm projecting what I hope and pray my life will be like, how I would like my W to own up to the consequences of her behavior, and how I hope that I could find the capacity to forgive.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Philat said:


> I'm definitely projecting in my reaction to the Adams' story. I'm projecting what I hope and pray my life will be like, how I would like my W to own up to the consequences of her behavior, and how I hope that I could find the capacity to forgive.


The part about forgiving comes much easier if you can get the part where she owns it. I hope you get there too. It's a long painful process.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Ah, good to know, I don't want to offend or upset, just like to get people thinking.. I've always been one to play the devils advocate, and I thought there were some good points made on both sides.
> t*hey'll hear the word 'mistake' *and even if it's out of context, th
> As for not asking for opinions.. your wife is a spouse that cheated, on a forum that's 99.9% spouses that have been betrayed.. there may be times when something she types is taken the wrong way, or rubs someone the wrong way... ey might say 'oh god, here we go again'... They might get tired of hearing her tell of how she confessed, or just her general tone. That's the nature of the Internet. It's what happens when you open yourself up and pour your soul out in an open forum. You can try to meter it, but the only way to avoid others opinions, would be to not read responses. Not everyone is going to agree with you, or 'like' your posts.
> 
> Many here aren't 30 years out from the betrayal, but are still trying to regain balance after just recently discovering affairs. Only a handful of us have spouses that are remorseful and working hard to repair the damage that was done. I'm sure there is some projection going on. How could there not be. I'm not sure projection is the result of not having a pair, I think it's just natural to put others stories in a context that you can understand. Others don't know your story, they know their story, so yes, they'll project. Something to consider when posting on the Internet. Although it does sound pretty tough to call out someone for not having Kahunas on the Internet, that's takes some huge ones...



Russell, thanks for the comments. I agree that when someone hears the word "mistake" they think the ws is not remorseful. It is a choice, a bad choice, which equals a mistake. A mistake is not necessarily an accident, it was a bad choice at the time.

My frustrations were aimed at another poster who seems to follow us around and does not seem to be able to stand up to his own spouse. I understand that it is mostly betrayed spouses here, I am one of them. That is probably what attracted me to this board along with the fact that it is mostly male. I can say things here I would not tell other male friends, I probably could not say the same things if I met some of the posters here in person.

I understand also that most people here are fairly freshly wounded. So, the posts may come off even stronger. I think it takes courage for a ws to post here. I know that some ws have tried and just left since they can not tell their story without being slammed.

I will say, having lived it for 30 years, I have a good understanding of the pain and depression caused by adultery. I can also say my wife "gets it". I can sometimes see people picking apart the semantics of her posts. The bottom line is adultery is adultery regardless of what you call it. I know one of my pet leaves is "I slept with him", no you "F**ked him", did you take a nap afterwards.

I guess I/we do not even oppose opinions, we both get riled when someone projects their story on us. We both know what happened. We are both here. So, for someone to say no that is not what happened we both go what the hell?

Anyway, thanks for the post and I hope no hard feelings.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> Actually, I was not talking to you. You are correct I do not know your story. So, I am not commenting or making opinions on your story. I am just saying I am not asking opinions on my story, since my story is my story, and my wife is here also so we both know our story.


JA,

You are starting to make as much sense as me. That is not good.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

jim123 said:


> JA,
> 
> You are starting to make as much sense as me. That is not good.


LOL....I am on a business trip in my hotel after several glasses of wine so I would be surprised if any of my posts are coherent tonight:toast:


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> LOL....I am on a business trip in my hotel after several glasses of wine so I would be surprised if any of my posts are coherent tonight:toast:


I just got home from a 14 hour day. I am doing a horrible job trying to explain stats. Maybe a quick beer then bed.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

russell28 said:


> The part about forgiving comes much easier if you can get the part where she owns it. I hope you get there too. It's a long painful process.


Thank you, russell. As I posted in another thread, I think I actually have reached that point, basically by projecting myself into johnAdams' shoes and taking a lesson from him. I have lived with someone who hasn't truly owned it for a long time, so I know what that looks like. Mrs JA looks very different--she does own it.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Yes, Owning it does make a difference. As JA stated it was not a "Mistake" it was a "Choice" and the WS needs to quit covering it with the "Mistake" excuse.

E1 and Mrs. JA from their recent posts have allowed for focus to be placed on that understanding.

I also have recently done what Philat has done above.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Yes, E1 and Mrs. Adams are some of the best role models when it comes to a (F)ws that i can think of here. There probably is a few others
I get a little envious because I wish my ww would put half the work they have.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

convert said:


> Yes, E1 and Mrs. Adams are some of the best role models when it comes to a (F)ws that i can think of here. There probably is a few others
> I get a little envious because* I wish my ww would put half the work they have.*


There you have it.

ETA: Definitely having earned the "f"


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> ...or you can come here and project your problems onto others because you do not have the Kaunas to face your unfaithful spouse.


I take issue with this statement. Not all BS's that come here and tell WS's what we think of their behavior are "projecting our problems onto others" or lack the "Kaunas to face your unfaithful spouse." (I'm assuming you meant "cojones"). 

That's insulting and inaccurate.

Also, you say you're not looking for opinions. Well, you're here, professing your story on a public forum, so you're going to get them. If you don't want them, don't post. We're not obligated to just sit idly by and take in your story and grin and nod. We have opinions, so, you'll hear them.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

May I respectfully ask...opinions about what?

If I tell you what happened...the way it happened...what is there to have an opinion about?

I cannot change my story...or the way I handled something to suit the way you think I should have done it. I am not asking...what should I do? How can you help me? 

I am simply telling you the way it is.

Do you understand what I am trying to convey? I fear I have stated it poorly.

My intention is not to be combative or argumentative.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> There are a lot of hurting people here with different stories. They all have different circumstances and different outcomes.
> 
> In the case of the Adams family. We are willingly sharing our story. In reality, neither of us is looking for help or opinions on us. If our story helps someone good, if not, move along. You certainly have the right to disagree. However, we are living the story. We are both here. One of a handful of couples that both post. An affair is the most devastating thing that can happen to a marriage. You can choose to divorce, as many have and moved on to have a happy life or you can choose to reconcile. Regardless of choice, the fact that your partner cheated does not change.
> 
> ...


People can be in a good place when they are in denial.

Such as when a WW says she did not have an EA or PA. That she calls her cheating only a ONS.

While her BH calls her cheating an EA and a PA.

There can be no owning of what was done when the WS and the BS can not even agree. That they have such a drastically different way to say what happened to their marriage.

How that the WS uses such minimizing terms regarding her affair.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> May I respectfully ask...opinions about what?
> 
> If I tell you what happened...the way it happened...what is there to have an opinion about?
> 
> ...


I was replying to a post by your husband. He stated that he is not here for opinions or advice - so obviously he feels that's what he's getting.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

EI said:


> While, it's always encouraging to read that someone has faith that I have owned the choice I made to betray my husband, my children, my vows, and myself, it is discouraging when I see BS's, or anyone, actually, comparing WS's to one another and putting one in a more favorable light.
> 
> There are so many unique circumstances in each situation, that comparisons serve no useful purpose. The one common factor in every infidelity is that they are all terribly painful and destructive to everyone whom they touch.
> 
> Today, I can honestly say that I wish I had never betrayed my husband. When I first posted on TAM, 21 months ago, and 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day, I could honestly say that I was sorry that I had hurt him, but I could not say that I was sorry that it happened. Because, at the time, I was not. I was very angry, bitter, and resentful. I completely blamed my husband for my decision to have a long term EA/PA. My story about the circumstances before, during, and after the infidelity has never changed, but my perception of everything about it has changed since then.


You have never minimized what you did. You never spoke as a politician doing damage control.

You do not use words that describe what you did to lessen the harshness of what you did. You clearly own all that you have done.

You were normal to be mad a your BH. Normal to be resentful. Because what you did was to rewrite your marital history to justify your affair. Which is normal behavior.

It takes some WW 1 day to get through the fog after D day some people 1 year. It is not how long it takes. It is that they got out of the fog 100%.

Normal for you to come out of the fog then say your affair and justifications to have an affair were wrong.

You have done everything to get that F in front of WW.

When a WW still say's that she her affair was not an EA or PA. That what she had a ONS.

When her BH calls his WW affair an EA and a PA.

And it is 30 + years after D day and they still have issues and the need to post here points out that real honesty is not there. Can never be there when the WW and the BH still can not agree on what happened after 30 + years.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

I have a question for the JA's. I have read your story and I would appreciate you answering these questions for me. Mr. JA: It sounds like you suffered for practically 30 years. What made you stay and how many times did you come to throwing in the towel? Is what you have now, worth the 30 years? To Mrs. JA, were you aware that he was suffering for 30 yrs and why did he have to find the solution for you? I think the fact that you all rebuilt is wonderful and an inspiration for others. As a side note, I hate the term reconciled as that suggests that both parties were at fault whereas rebuilt recognizes something was destroyed and something new exists. I don't expect the term to catch on, but just saying. This question is not a set up for some sort of gotcha, I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of triggering for 30 years.

As for people seemingly venting on this forum, I have concluded that it is easy to vent, rage or hold a hard but understandable line against someone else's spouse because they don't have any feelings for the Wayward. Not trying to jump in the midst of that particular fight, just my .02. Sometimes that hard edge is helpful for BS's that are in denial or rationalizing. It does help. Also, when you two can withstand the scrutiny, it helps those considering rebuilding to see that is a viable choice. Other's in R can answer too, but I see more JA posts, and have those particular questions.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Theroad...

I am going to attempt to approach this with you one more time although I confess..I know it will not do any good to try.

You think it is somehow extremely important that I say my affair was an ea and a pa when in the past I have called it a ons. My husband has posted the definition of a ons and my affair clearly falls within the perimeters of the definition. Regardless.... Do you understand that my husband knows what I did...I fvcked another man one time. The title or the description of what I did is not the issue. The issue is the act itself.

I met a man...I had no contact with this man outside of a classroom setting. Our relationship was student/ teacher. I crossed the line with this man when I flirted back with him. I kept his phone number. I had what philat so wisely described as a crush on him. I did not really know him on a personal level outside of the classroom. The one and only time I was alone with this man was the one and only time I went to bed with him. I was never alone with him again ...I never had sex with him again...I have never contacted him again.

The discussion we had before was that you believe I am in denial about the title of what I did...therefore I cannot have true remorse.

I am not asking you what your opinion is regarding my affair. I do not care what you think I did was a ons or a Lta or a ea or a pa.....the bottom line in all of those descriptions is still the same. I own what I did...I own that I made the choice to cheat...I own I am completely and totally 100% responsible. I own that if I could...I would undo what I have done. I own that I am completely responsible for the pain I have caused my husband. I own that I should have been kicked to the curb...he should have divorced me and found someone else that truly deserves him.

I know that he knows all of the above....and the important thing here is that his knowing is the only thing that matters. I am not accountable for my transgression to you or anyone here. I am accountable to him. He is my judge and jury. He has found me guilty as charged with the crime of infidelity. He has forgiven me and given me a second chance at being his wife. 

I have done everything I know how to do to show him he made the right choice. 

So you see...it does not matter if you agree with the way we have chosen to handle my affair. We are not asking your advice, we are not asking for your blessing, we are not asking for your approval, we are not asking for your opinion. None of those things will change our situation.

Now having said all this....in your own situation...if your wife calls her affair a ons and you believe it to be an ea pa...that matters! Because the important thing in your healing is the two of you must agree. You must handle your own situation the best way you both know how. I cannot possibly tell you that you have done it the right way or the wrong way. You must do what's right for you.

We have dealt with and continue to deal with my affair the best way we know how. I am certain we have not handled everything the way you think we should have. I respect that.

Now please respect that we have done what is best for us. 
No opinions, required.

EI and I are very good friends. We talk to each other everyday. I am sorry that we are both part of the cheaters club. It is not an honorable club to be in. We are all different...our stories are different...we handle things differently. The bottom line is we both love our husbands and we both carry the knapsacks of rocks we placed around their necks when we cheated. We do the very best we can to help our husbands heal from the horrible thing we did to them. I understand not all ww are able to do that. I understand that all bs cannot come to a place of forgiveness. I understand that the best answer is not always reconciliation. I am not here to judge. I am here to offer hope to those who choose r. To let them know that with time and love...it is possible.

That is the reason I am here. I want to give hope.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

bigfoot said:


> As for people seemingly venting on this forum, I have concluded that it is easy to vent, rage or hold a hard but understandable line against someone else's spouse because they don't have any feelings for the Wayward. Not trying to jump in the midst of that particular fight, just my .02. Sometimes that hard edge is helpful for BS's that are in denial or rationalizing. It does help. Also, when you two can withstand the scrutiny, it helps those considering rebuilding to see that is a viable choice. Other's in R can answer too, but I see more JA posts, and have those particular questions.


I agree. When I first came here as a BS attempting to R, there were a lot of angry and destroyed BS's who did some venting, or strongly stating their feelings towards cheaters and R. Reading those posts gave me insight into what lay ahead, and what all of this really means.

If people would've sat idly by and only professed how wonderful R is and never spoke their true feelings about WS, cheating and R, I may have not been as resolute in my final decision, and that would've been very, very bad for me.

So, while I agree slandering or nasty name calling isn't a great idea, I see value and purpose in people "venting". It's often a reality check, a different perspective and an eye opener for the walking wounded that is the BS.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Theroad...
> 
> I am going to attempt to approach this with you one more time although I confess..I know it will not do any good to try.
> 
> You think it is somehow extremely important that I say my affair was an ea and a pa when in the past I have called it a ons. My husband has posted the definition of a ons and my affair clearly falls within the perimeters of the definition. Regardless.... Do you understand that my husband knows what I did....


A WW saying she had sex with the OM is not the issue.

The issue is that you still use ONS and your BH says EA/PA. Yet you say how great your marriage is now.

I ask how great when your BH is still triggering for over 30 years.

I do not just read the lines but what is between the lines. It is troubling that you still use a term ONS. Because you did not just meet someone for the first time by chance at a bar, café, beach, wherever, and after a drink, you left with him and you had sex with him, then you both got up and never saw each other again.

That is not being honest with yourself.

You can not be honest with yourself then you never can be honest with others.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> EI and I are very good friends.


Because EI is a FWW does not make her judgment foolproof now. ROTFALMAO :rofl:






Excuse my sense of humor.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

bigfoot said:


> I have a question for the JA's. I have read your story and I would appreciate you answering these questions for me. Mr. JA: It sounds like you suffered for practically 30 years. What made you stay and how many times did you come to throwing in the towel? Is what you have now, worth the 30 years? To Mrs. JA, were you aware that he was suffering for 30 yrs and why did he have to find the solution for you? I think the fact that you all rebuilt is wonderful and an inspiration for others. As a side note, I hate the term reconciled as that suggests that both parties were at fault whereas rebuilt recognizes something was destroyed and something new exists. I don't expect the term to catch on, but just saying. This question is not a set up for some sort of gotcha, I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of triggering for 30 years.
> 
> 
> 
> As for people seemingly venting on this forum, I have concluded that it is easy to vent, rage or hold a hard but understandable line against someone else's spouse because they don't have any feelings for the Wayward. Not trying to jump in the midst of that particular fight, just my .02. Sometimes that hard edge is helpful for BS's that are in denial or rationalizing. It does help. Also, when you two can withstand the scrutiny, it helps those considering rebuilding to see that is a viable choice. Other's in R can answer too, but I see more JA posts, and have those particular questions.



I will answer my part to the best of my ability and mrJA will answer his part.i was very aware of his suffering. I tried to do everything I knew to do to help him heal. I told him over and over again I was sorry. He had to find what he needed before I could find how to give it to him. In other words ...he could not tell me what it was he was looking for so how could I possibly give it to him. Last year he came here looking for something...something he felt in his gut was missing In his being able to totally forgive me. That something was a true sense of my understanding the tremendous pain my infidelity had caused him. Once he understood exactly what he was looking for...he pointed me to a the book how to help your spouse heal.....upon reading it...I immediately understood how to help him....I too saw what it was he desperately needed and I was able to give it to him.

In most marriages..most relationships...we aspire to provide our spouse with the things we think they need. Sometimes...even though we try...we fail...

It is especially difficult..when we as individuals may not even know what it is we want ourselves.

We had a good marriage...yet I needed something I could not tell my husband I thought I needed. So how could he attempt to give me what I wanted if I myself did not know? He is not to blame...he was doing the best he could...he is not a mind reader. I gave up on him too soon...if I had told him what it was I was looking for...he would have done his very best to give it to me.

I thought perhaps...someone else was the answer. I made the worst decision in my life. I would give anything if I could undo what I have done. We both will pay for my decision the rest of our lives.
What I wanted...I already had...him. I have always had him....I just was blind to that at the time. 

Looking back...it's easier to see what went wrong...but he never deserved what I did to him. I am responsible for all of his pain...me...the very one he trusted...the very one he adored...me his angel...plunged the dagger deep into his heart...and still he looks at me with those same adoring eyes once again and says...I love and I trust you. It is almost more than I can bear...this guilt that brought upon myself....and there he stands with open arms..beckoning me to come into his heart...the very one I stabbed. The scar is big...but the hole is healed over. It will forever be there..that ugly scar....but the heart still beats and the heart still loves..this ugly ww.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

theroad said:


> People can be in a good place when they are in denial.
> 
> Such as when a WW says she did not have an EA or PA. That she calls her cheating only a ONS.
> 
> ...


This is beyond bizarre.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

There is no guarantee of anything, ever. We live with our choices. We accept what we can. What bothers me is that Mrs. JA doesn't report these hurtful posts. That bothers me not because I think they should be. There is merit in most posts, even ones I don't agree with. 

What bothers me is that I feel like Mrs. JA is blaming herself for this in a manner that won't let her stick up for herself. That's a problem for me. I think Mr. JA might even agree. While he is a BS, he is no longer being betrayed and hasn't been for, I don't know how many years. It's been quite a number. 

Mrs. JA, when you believe you have done all you can and deserve the respect that I think you've earned, you won't be so quick to let everything slide. Why don't you think you've earned it? That's puzzling for me. I don't need an answer. I was hoping to provoke thought from a different perspective. 

If you didn't know, I'm on your side, Mr. and Mrs. JA, EI and B1. I think sometimes, we need to step up and do the right thing for ourselves. 

You know I'm a BS and have been hurt terribly, no matter what I have done to make my last marriage bad. I am still on your side and you can find posts which show the hate and disgust I sometimes deal with. What does that say about me? What does that say about you? Edit: When I tell you I am on your side?


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

****edited as Mrs. JA. Answered**** Thanks for the info Squeaker!

As to the definition of ONS vs. EA/PA, I think that Road is using to strict a definition. One can have a ONS with someone you know. I've done it, before I was married. There was no emotional connection at all. 

If one party is in a relationship, all ONS's are also PA's. If neither are in a relationship it is just a ONS. Thus, in the context the Adam's are using terms EA and ONS, they are synonymous. Here, I think that Road is making a distinction without a difference. 

The fact that Mr. JA also defines it as a EA is, more a matter of perspective and not so much one of disagreement. All ONS, except for prostitution based ones, involve flirting and some communication between the parties. Again, in the context of a committed relationship, the betrayed could accurately describe it as an EA since that type of communication should not have been happening. However, that would be the loosest and broadest definition of an EA and it but would be vastly different from a more accurate definition of an EA wherein the parties were expressing love for each other, etc. This particular label, in light of the facts of this case is not essential. Mr. JA may describe it as an EA, from his perspective, which is valid from his perspective.

When it comes to the true nature of an affair, be it, EA, ONS, OEA or otherwise, the party actually engaging in it is the one who can tell you the true scope, assuming they are being truthful. In short, Mrs. JA is in the best position to know whether it is best described as an EA. 

Mrs. JA may describe it as an ONS, which is valid. There is not, however, a requirement that they agree on labels when the event that they describe is the same. It is not like she has not told him what happened. They agree on the facts or rather, he accepts the facts that she has told him. To find any meaning in the fact that they label the undisputed facts as ONS, EA/PA is ridiculous. If, however, they were not in agreement on the facts, then you would have a point. In short, if this were a matter of Trickle Truthing, then agreement on the terms would be needed, but until all of the facts were known, no term could be properly assigned. Here, the facts are known, thus the terms are superfluous.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks for Answering Mrs. JA. I posted right after you did. I don't know how to edit posts.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

theroad said:


> You have never minimized what you did. You never spoke as a politician doing damage control.
> 
> You do not use words that describe what you did to lessen the harshness of what you did. You clearly own all that you have done.
> 
> ...


How do you get that EI rewrote her marital history? B1 has stated numerous times that the way EI described their marriage was exactly as she said.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

theroad said:


> A WW saying she had sex with the OM is not the issue.
> 
> The issue is that you still use ONS and your BH says EA/PA. Yet you say how great your marriage is now.
> 
> ...



Mrs JA doesn't have to prove herself to you or anyone else on this forum. The only person whose opinion matters is her H.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Philat said:


> This is beyond bizarre.
> 
> :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> There is no guarantee of anything, ever. We live with our choices. We accept what we can. What bothers me is that Mrs. JA doesn't report these hurtful posts. That bothers me not because I think they should be. There is merit in most posts, even ones I don't agree with.
> 
> What bothers me is that I feel like Mrs. JA is blaming herself for this in a manner that won't let her stick up for herself. That's a problem for me. I think Mr. JA might even agree. While he is a BS, he is no longer being betrayed and hasn't been for, I don't know how many years. It's been quite a number.
> 
> ...



When you tell me you are on my side...it tells me that you GET IT. I am not asking for you to agree with me...I am not asking that you praise me...but I want you to GET IT...I want you to see that I love my husband with my entire being and I have done the worst possible thing I could do to him...and yet he still loves me and has forgiven me. SO hope is possible for those who may be in a similar situation. I have never gone into a thread here and projected my pain on someone else. One time there was a thread...and some of you probably witnessed this....*a statement was made that if a woman has an EA it is as bad or worse than a man having a pa....you know why? because the heart does not forget.* Now I will admit....that was one time I projected myself into that thread. Why? Because my husband had made the statement that he thought i had an EA PA....which means that there might be some trace of attachment to the om in my mind according to the posters statement. NOW....this is MY story....and I am telling you....i do not have one shred, one tiny speck, one ounce of emotional remembrance of the posom. Why? Because there wan't any emotional affair. I had a CRUSH on my teacher...yes I was 28 years old....but I had been married since I was 17....I had devoted the last 11 years to my husband and my children...and I had absolutely no experience with other men. But I did not love him....I walked away from him and never looked back. How could i have loved him? I did not KNOW him!!!!! So this post...sucker punched me in the gut...and all I could think about was oh my god...is that what john thinks???? does he think I loved the om????? 

So I got emotional in my post and i did apologize for it. the original post was written by someone I know had not had an affair and sometimes...a lot of speculating goes on around here. Those who have not cheated..have no idea what it feels like to be a cheater. The same can be said of the opposite. If you have never been cheated on...then you cannot know how it feels. you can speculate how it feels.

Now let me tell you something....John and i know what it feels like from both sides. We don't talk about it...no one questions it...but it is in my story. 

I do think...no wait...I KNOW i have earned it 2ntnuf..but on the other hand...I never want to forget what I have done to my husband...I never want anyone to be able to say...she did not do her part....especially the man i love. I want him to know not a day goes by that I am not thankful to him and not a day goes by that I don't think about what I have done. 

Geez...I am long winded today...it must be the result of talking to EI:rofl: Love you girl!


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

bigfoot said:


> Mr. and Mrs. JA, please answer my questions.
> 
> As to the definition of ONS vs. EA/PA, I think that Road is using to strict a definition. One can have a ONS with someone you know. I've done it, before I was married. There was no emotional connection at all.
> 
> ...


Bigfoot...I did answer your questions hon...Mr adams is not here at the moment...I am sure he will be around later.


My husband concurs that my affair fits within this definition.


the definition *A one-night stand is a single sexual encounter with no implication of further relations between sexual participants. This is regardless of whether a one-night stand was originally intended by either participant to be a one-night stand, or whether further relations between the participants subsequently arise. The term has been defined by critics as "sexual activity without emotional commitment or future involvement".*[1]

My husband also thinks my affair fits within this description. I do not...

An "emotional affair" is an affair which excludes physical intimacy, and is usually based on emotional intimacy. An emotional affair can also be referred to as an affair of the heart. It is a phenomenon that is not limited to married couples, affecting people in serious relationships of every type. An emotional affair may begin innocently as a friendship with a person outside the relationship. Over time, the partner becomes infatuated, obsessed in some cases, with this friend - and eventually tries to become friendlier, spending more time with him or her at the cost of the relationship that person is already in. Where one partner is in a committed monogamous relationship, irrespective of whether marriage is planned or not, and irrespective of if the couple is already married or not, an emotional affair can be considered a type of chaste nonmonogamy without consummation. When the affair breaches an agreement in the monogamous relationship of one of the partners to the affair, the term infidelity may be more apt.
It is important to distinguish between an emotional affair, a healthy friendship that does not risk the present relationship, and signs of a failing relationship that have nothing to do with emotional affairs to begin with. For a heterosexual person, a relationship with a member of the opposite gender in of itself can be healthy and is not necessarily an emotional affair. If the relationship in question was poor and tenuous to begin, and problems were occurring before the extraneous relationship was formed, the term "emotional affair" is less applicable - the relationship may instead be suffering from a Relational disorder.


and we all know what a physical affair is no definition required....I had one

now..I had a one time sexual encounter with a teacher I knew in a classroom setting for about 8 weeks. I never saw him again outside of the classroom for the next 6 weeks. I walked away at the end of the semester and have had no contact of any kind with him.

I had an affair...I caused my husband tremendous pain and suffering. I have shown him the remorse he needs to forgive me.
This is the bottom line.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

bigfoot said:


> Thanks for Answering Mrs. JA. I posted right after you did. I don't know how to edit posts.


FYI, there will be a button at the bottom of your post that is marked edit, for you to edit posts in the future. It only shows up after you have submitted the post and only appears on your posts (won't be on anyone else's post otherwise this would create udder chaos!! Just an FYI, as I use it lots for typos that show up due to autocorrect on the phone, or my sometimes scattered thought processes when typing (fingers move and brain shuts off).


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> How do you get that EI rewrote her marital history? B1 has stated numerous times that the way EI described their marriage was exactly as she said.



Thank you, Pidge. That just saved me from having to make a huge post. So, here's a little one, instead. 

I did not rewrite our marital history. However, I *was* very angry and resentful, because I did blame B1 for my affair. It took almost 5 months before I could say "I'm sorry that I had an affair, it was wrong and I am 100% responsible for my actions," instead of saying, "I'm sorry that I had an affair BUT, you (followed by all of the reasons that I used to justify my decision to have an affair.) I knew that B1 needed to hear my sincere apology without it ALWAYS being followed by a "but." This was all posted, in real time, on the Reconciliation thread. Cognitively, I knew that I had to reach that level of acceptance. But, I refused to say it, until I genuinely believed/felt it. I knew it had to be sincere. Words mean nothing if they are not honest and are not followed by actions that back them up. It took time for me to work through those emotions and truly embrace that level of acceptance. Because B1 knew what followed the "but," he knew what part he had played in the breakdown of our marriage, and he knew that he loved me and wanted to reconcile, he chose to love me the most when I was the least deserving of his love. He very unselfishly allowed me the time that I needed to honestly be able to say, "I'm sorry that I had an affair. It was wrong and I am 100% responsible for that choice," without a _but_ at the end. 

With all of that being said, my marriage was horrible for years prior to my affair. I did communicate my unhappiness to B1, I did try to get him to work with me on our marriage. I worked on improving myself, and I tried, in vain, to help him. He choose to bury his head in the sand, rather than get the help that he needed for his issues. That's 100% on him. He owns that. I had an affair. Nothing that he did or didn't do justified that, because there is no justification. It was 100% wrong. I shouldn't have done it. That's on me. I own that.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and we all know what a physical affair is no definition required.



Bravo on your posts.

To question your ONS definition, since you were in the class with that teacher, would future involvement not apply in this case (or does this have to mean emotional or physical) as you still had the class to attend?


Even still I am interested to hear what you're definition of a physical affair is, as we all know the infamous Clinton statements, and several of us BS have received the infamous, "it was nothing but a kiss, hug, etc excuses". So where is the line drawn to define a PA (inappropriate touching, mutual masturbation over phone calls/ video chats, Oral, or limited solely to actual intercourse)?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Geez...I am long winded today...it must be the result of talking to EI:rofl: Love you girl!





I can't believe you said that!


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Bigfoot...I did answer your questions hon...Mr adams is not here at the moment...I am sure he will be around later.
> 
> 
> My husband concurs that my affair fits within this definition.
> ...


You knew him for 8 weeks, leading up to it, was it only classroom talk, then boom, sex? I'd expect there was some heavy flirting going on leading up to sex, no?

Do you need to feel connected to someone emotionally to be intimate with them?

I ask, because I can see why your husband would want to believe it's part of #2, and not just #1...


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

EI said:


> Thank you, Pidge. That just saved me from having to make a huge post. So, here's a little one, instead.
> 
> I did not rewrite our marital history. However, I *was* very angry and resentful, because I did blame B1 for my affair. It took almost 5 months before I could say "I'm sorry that I had an affair, it was wrong and I am 100% responsible for my actions," instead of saying, "I'm sorry that I had an affair BUT, you (followed by all of the reasons that I used to justify my decision to have an affair.) I knew that B1 needed to hear my sincere apology without it ALWAYS being followed by a "but." This was all posted, in real time, on the Reconciliation thread. Cognitively, I knew that I had to reach that level of acceptance. But, I refused to say it, until I genuinely believed/felt it. I knew it had to be sincere. Words mean nothing if they are not honest and are not followed by actions that back them up. It took time for me to work through those emotions and truly embrace that level of acceptance. Because B1 knew what followed the "but," he knew what part he had played in the breakdown of our marriage, and he knew that he loved me and wanted to reconcile, he chose to love me the most when I was the least deserving of his love. He very unselfishly allowed me the time that I needed to honestly be able to say, "I'm sorry that I had an affair. It was wrong and I am 100% responsible for that choice," without a _but_ at the end.
> 
> With all of that being said, my marriage was horrible for years prior to my affair. I did communicate my unhappiness to B1, I did try to get him to work with me on our marriage. I worked on improving myself, and I tried, in vain, to help him. He choose to bury his head in the sand, rather than get the help that he needed for his issues. That's 100% on him. He owns that. I had an affair. Nothing that he did or didn't do justified that, because there is no justification. It was 100% wrong. I shouldn't have done it. That's on me. I own that.


:iagree: Great post!

I wish I could get my WW to see the whole "but" statement and how it affects us, our interactions, and the conversations from that point forward.. I comically refer to it as the "big but" as it always seems to follow her statements and professions of some possible remorse or regret. This following action always seem to wipe out whatever positive I was seeing before then, as it is like a storm cloud rolling in quickly and just rains over whatever statements are to follow!! She doesn't get it though.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

EI said:


> I can't believe you said that!



I am mailing duct tape to you as we speak...:rofl:


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

russell28 said:


> You knew him for 8 weeks, leading up to it, was it only classroom talk, then boom, sex? I'd expect there was some heavy flirting going on leading up to sex, no?
> *Classroom talk...flirting...after class in the class room talk...*
> Do you need to feel connected to someone emotionally to be intimate with them?
> *Well the only man I ever dated...the only man I ever had sex with was my husband prior to the affair...and since I had sex with a man i did not love I am guessing the answer is NO.*
> I ask, because I can see why your husband would want to believe it's part of #2, and not just #1...


*Yes...That would make me a total **** wouldn't it? So which do you prefer...your wife fvcked a man she did not love or your wife fvcked a man she did love? Hmmmm...neither one is the right answer is it? The right answer is...MY WIFE DID NOT FVCK ANOTHER MAN...I cannot give him the right answer...I wish I could...but I cannot.*


Please understand...this is a very hard place to be mentally...for myself...but especially for my husband.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

bigfoot said:


> I have a question for the JA's. I have read your story and I would appreciate you answering these questions for me. Mr. JA: It sounds like you suffered for practically 30 years. What made you stay and how many times did you come to throwing in the towel? Is what you have now, worth the 30 years?


*What made you stay and how many times did you come to throwing in the towel?*

The answer is simple, Love. We never separated and I never considered divorce.

*Is what you have now, worth the 30 years? 
*

Another simple question, absolutely yes. We were discussing this the other night. In reality, I would bet we have had a better marriage for the past 30 years than people who were not dealing with infidelity. Everyone who knows us thinks we have a wonderful marriage (because we do). Infidelity leaves a permanent scar. I do not think anyone 100% gets over it. We managed to move our marriage up a notch. As we have written here before, we worked on the remorse issue. She was remorseful, but not completely in the way I needed. When she found the tools to help her help me, she immediately took the steps needed. Also as I have stated on another active thread, we are in a new place an idealistic place. We both love each other more than ever and feel no one could possibly love their spouse as much as we love each other. Pure idealism, but a return to that great feeling as newlyweds. Only, it is now better, we are both wiser, appreciative of what we have and we both feel the best is yet to come. What a wonderful 30 years is had been


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I would like to double like my husbands post. He is amazing.....


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

EI said:


> Thank you, Pidge. That just saved me from having to make a huge post. So, here's a little one, instead.
> 
> I did not rewrite our marital history. However, I *was* very angry and resentful, because I did blame B1 for my affair. It took almost 5 months before I could say "I'm sorry that I had an affair, it was wrong and I am 100% responsible for my actions," instead of saying, "I'm sorry that I had an affair BUT, you (followed by all of the reasons that I used to justify my decision to have an affair.) I knew that B1 needed to hear my sincere apology without it ALWAYS being followed by a "but." This was all posted, in real time, on the Reconciliation thread. Cognitively, I knew that I had to reach that level of acceptance. But, I refused to say it, until I genuinely believed/felt it. I knew it had to be sincere. Words mean nothing if they are not honest and are not followed by actions that back them up. It took time for me to work through those emotions and truly embrace that level of acceptance. Because B1 knew what followed the "but," he knew what part he had played in the breakdown of our marriage, and he knew that he loved me and wanted to reconcile, he chose to love me the most when I was the least deserving of his love. He very unselfishly allowed me the time that I needed to honestly be able to say, "I'm sorry that I had an affair. It was wrong and I am 100% responsible for that choice," without a _but_ at the end.
> 
> With all of that being said, my marriage was horrible for years prior to my affair. I did communicate my unhappiness to B1, I did try to get him to work with me on our marriage. I worked on improving myself, and I tried, in vain, to help him. He choose to bury his head in the sand, rather than get the help that he needed for his issues. That's 100% on him. He owns that. I had an affair. Nothing that he did or didn't do justified that, because there is no justification. It was 100% wrong. I shouldn't have done it. That's on me. I own that.


This is a WW owning her affair and earning the "F" in front of WW.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

russell28 said:


> You knew him for 8 weeks, leading up to it, was it only classroom talk, then boom, sex? I'd expect there was some heavy flirting going on leading up to sex, no?
> 
> Do you need to feel connected to someone emotionally to be intimate with them?
> 
> I ask, because I can see why your husband would want to believe it's part of #2, and not just #1...


This was an EA first that turned into a PA.

MrsJA did not have a ONS.

I sorry that not even EI can see the difference between what she has done post D day and see where for 30 years MrsJA has fallen short.

Because of the way EI has handled her affair post D day she will not have a BH still triggering 30 + years.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

theroad said:


> This was an EA first that turned into a PA.
> 
> MrsJA did not have a ONS.
> 
> ...


No road, and you're the only one that is blind here. I know your story, and it's quite obvious to me that you are nothing more than jealous of MJA because she is everything that your WW is NOT. 

Obviously you don't even bother to read JA's take on all this, otherwise you would just let it go. But no; you have to keep gnawing and gnawing and gnawing.

And you don't even realize just how weak and pathetic you make yourself look! It's disgraceful.

Leave these people alone. They don't deserve your wrath. Perhaps you should gear some of that wrath towards the man in the mirror. HE deserves it!


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

3putt said:


> Obviously you don't even bother to read JA's take on all this, otherwise you would just let it go. But no; you have to* keep gnawing and gnawing and gnawing.*


This is what in my workplace we called harassment.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Philat said:


> This is what in my workplace we called harassment.


Yep. Or like a bully at recess.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

just briefly JA's ( and forgive me for not reading through all your story )

So since dday a long long time ago have you both / either of you at any point not come close to splitting? even for a short time when the affair has come into sudden focus like every now and then it will / would have 

Has there been any subtle changes about what happened and why over such a long period of time?

What is evident about such long term reconciliations is that the heavy lifting required by a wayward spouse is exactly that and has the burden of carrying it ever got you to the point of walking out to a much 'lighter' fresh undamaged relationship with a new partner?

I'd say it must be very very hard to carry that and knowing it will in effect never ever leave you


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

just briefly JA's ( and forgive me for not reading through all your story )

So since dday a long long time ago have you both / either of you at any point not come close to splitting? even for a short time when the affair has come into sudden focus like every now and then it will / would have 

*There has never been a time that we considered giving up...so the short answer is no.*

Has there been any subtle changes about what happened and why over such a long period of time?

*No...the story remains the same...once in a while I might get the dates mixed up.*

What is evident about such long term reconciliations is that the heavy lifting required by a wayward spouse is exactly that and has the burden of carrying it ever got you to the point of walking out to a much 'lighter' fresh undamaged relationship with a new partner?

*No not for a minute...*

I'd say it must be very very hard to carry that and knowing it will in effect never ever leave you

*Yes it is sometimes overwhelming for the both of us that this is a lifelong pain.*


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Headspin said:


> just briefly JA's ( and forgive me for not reading through all your story )


Headspin, the story is told on Mrs JA's public profile. It is worth reading from beginning to end.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

So, what you are saying is, I got the wrong impression. You do think and know you have earned the respect and you own it? 

You want to help others to see how it can be and maybe understand from the other side? 

You are willing to put up with some of the crap so that you can at least attempt to help others?

Honorable and yet, sometimes seems a little too self-sacrificing, at times. Thanks for the explanation. It surprised me. I didn't think what I wrote was going to spark such a response. I truly thought I was being supportive of you. I think you know that. I hope, anyway.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> When you tell me you are on my side...it tells me that you GET IT. I am not asking for you to agree with me...I am not asking that you praise me...but I want you to GET IT...I want you to see that I love my husband with my entire being and I have done the worst possible thing I could do to him...and yet he still loves me and has forgiven me. SO hope is possible for those who may be in a similar situation. I have never gone into a thread here and projected my pain on someone else. One time there was a thread...and some of you probably witnessed this....*a statement was made that if a woman has an EA it is as bad or worse than a man having a pa....you know why? because the heart does not forget.* Now I will admit....that was one time I projected myself into that thread. Why? Because my husband had made the statement that he thought i had an EA PA....which means that there might be some trace of attachment to the om in my mind according to the posters statement. NOW....this is MY story....and I am telling you....i do not have one shred, one tiny speck, one ounce of emotional remembrance of the posom. Why? Because there wan't any emotional affair. I had a CRUSH on my teacher...yes I was 28 years old....but I had been married since I was 17....I had devoted the last 11 years to my husband and my children...and I had absolutely no experience with other men. But I did not love him....I walked away from him and never looked back. How could i have loved him? I did not KNOW him!!!!! So this post...sucker punched me in the gut...and all I could think about was oh my god...is that what john thinks???? does he think I loved the om?????
> 
> So I got emotional in my post and i did apologize for it. the original post was written by someone I know had not had an affair and sometimes...a lot of speculating goes on around here. Those who have not cheated..have no idea what it feels like to be a cheater. The same can be said of the opposite. If you have never been cheated on...then you cannot know how it feels. you can speculate how it feels.
> 
> ...


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

So, what you are saying is, I got the wrong impression. You do think and know you have earned the respect and you own it? 

*I think I have owned my affair and the respect of my husband*

You want to help others to see how it can be and maybe understand from the other side? 

*exactly*

You are willing to put up with some of the crap so that you can at least attempt to help others?

*exactly*

Honorable and yet, sometimes seems a little too self-sacrificing, at times. Thanks for the explanation. It surprised me. I didn't think what I wrote was going to spark such a response. I truly thought I was being supportive of you. I think you know that. I hope, anyway.

*I know you are supportive and I thank you for it.*


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> So, what you are saying is, I got the wrong impression. You do think and know you have earned the respect and you own it?
> 
> *I think I have owned my affair and the respect of my husband*
> 
> ...




*I think I have owned my affair and the respect of my husband*


I think you have too. That's not what I meant. I guess I meant that you seem to let others give you more crap than you deserve, *because*, as I see it, you have earned the respect of your husband and deserve respect from others. 

Sorry about that. Not sure if that's because of what I wrote or how you think of me, or just due to the ongoing questioning from others. I don't know when I have questioned your integrity. I can't remember doing it, but that doesn't mean something I wrote wasn't perceived that way.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I think I have owned my affair and the respect of my husband


I think you have too. That's not what I meant. I guess I meant that you seem to let others give you more crap than you deserve, *because*, as I see it, you have earned the respect of your husband and deserve respect from others. 

Sorry about that. Not sure if that's because of what I wrote or how you think of me, or just due to the ongoing questioning from others. I don't know when I have questioned your integrity. I can't remember doing it, but that doesn't mean something I wrote wasn't perceived that way.


*Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of me...as long as they treat me with respect....I am ok.*


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I guess I meant that you seem to let others give you more crap than you deserve, *because*, as I see it, you have earned the respect of your husband and deserve respect from others.


Hi 2ntnuf and thank you very much for your support! I know you wrote this for my wife, but I will also respond.

Yes, I think she takes way too much crap here. I think there are those who cannot and will not accept our story. Strange, since we both post here and both agree with each other. Not sure what there is to question?

I think since this is a male, BS, dominated site, you get the anguish of those who are projecting their problems onto my wife.

We have been successfully reconciled for 30 years. There are others with the same time period, but they are probably smart enough not to post and put up with the crap.....lol.

The bottom line is are the wife and husband satisfied with the reconciliation? If so, it is really irrelevant what others think.

Mrs. JA is willing to put up with the crap, since she knows she has helped several on this board. So, while I think the majority are supportive, I think there are a few who need to hit the road


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> Hi 2ntnuf and thank you very much for your support! I know you wrote this for my wife, but I will also respond.
> 
> Yes, I think she takes way too much crap here. I think there are those who cannot and will not accept our story. Strange, since we both post here and both agree with each other. Not sure what there is to question?
> 
> ...


lulz


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> The bottom line is are the wife and husband satisfied with the reconciliation? If so, it is really irrelevant what others think.
> 
> Mrs. JA is willing to put up with the crap, since she knows she has helped several on this board. So, while I think the majority are supportive, I think there are a few who need to hit the road


Uhhhh - this isn't even your thread. What would make you think you're able to tell people on this (public) forum to "hit the road"?

If it's irrelevant what others think, why do you respond and call attention to others posts/opinions?

It all seems a little "me me me".


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> Uhhhh - this isn't even your thread. What would make you think you're able to tell people on this (public) forum to "hit the road"?
> 
> If it's irrelevant what others think, why do you respond and call attention to others posts/opinions?
> 
> *It all seems a little "me me me".*


As do your and theroad's posts. This is his wife that has been constantly attacked by the likes of you two. You expect him to just stand around and allow it?

Damn dude!


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

3putt said:


> As do your and theroad's posts. This is his wife that has been constantly attacked by the likes of you two. You expect him to just stand around and allow it?
> 
> Damn dude!


And not only attacked, but attacked on the basis of a consistently misunderstood, distorted, and downright erroneous interpretation of what both Mr and Mrs JA have stated clearly and emphatically literally hundreds of times. How could Mr. JA let this go unchallenged?


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Healer said:


> Uhhhh - this isn't even your thread. What would make you think you're able to tell people on this (public) forum to "hit the road"?
> 
> If it's irrelevant what others think, why do you respond and call attention to others posts/opinions?
> 
> It all seems a little "me me me".


healer...I dont understand what you are saying..

no it is not OUR thread...it's not YOUR thread either. We were not even on this thread until someone brought us into the conversation.

The question is Why is it better to r than D?

That means those who are r are welcome to give thier opinions...and those who are d are welcome to give their opinion.

As long as all posters are respectful to each other...there should not be an issue.

You have a right to contribute...is there anything you want to say that is relavent to the topic?

Please share.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

3putt said:


> As do your and theroad's posts. This is his wife that has been constantly attacked by the likes of you two. You expect him to just stand around and allow it?
> 
> Damn dude!


I've "constantly attacked her"? Care to back that up with evidence? I look forward to it. Damn dude!


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> healer...I dont understand what you are saying..
> 
> no it is not OUR thread...it's not YOUR thread either. We were not even on this thread until someone brought us into the conversation.
> 
> ...


Everything I've posted is relevant to the thread, and I called your husband out on stating that some of us need to "hit the road" (which he posted..._in this thread_).


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> I've "constantly attacked her"? Care to back that up with evidence? I look forward to it. Damn dude!


You, TR, and one other have been tag teaming her for some time now. Just go back and read what you all have written and see if you would stand aside and allow it if it were your wife.

You're a lot more subtle than TR, but not THAT subtle.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

yes I understand that...I thought maybe you had more to say.

My husband was not talking about you.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> Everything I've posted is relevant to the thread, and I called your husband out on stating that some of us need to "hit the road" (which he posted..._in this thread_).


It's a general thread on which his wife was attacked. This thread belongs to NO one in particular. And even if it did, he has every right to defend his wife when she is being pack attacked.

BTW, everything that JA has posted is relevant to this thread as well. He's just been a bit nicer about it than others. Damned if I know why though.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

I went to Healer's Profile (what a strange nick for a person who is anything but a Healer), anyway I looked up past posts of you attacking my wife and started to post them but thought why? Perhaps you are such a small man that picking on women makes you feel big. Is this how you treated your wife.....hmmmmm

Yes, the road is the other character without balls that goes around trying to pick a fight with my wife. Another one that thinks I will pick on women since I am such a small little.....

So, yes, I will defend my wife from your uncalled on bashing.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> Hi 2ntnuf and thank you very much for your support! I know you wrote this for my wife, but I will also respond.
> 
> Yes, I think she takes way too much crap here. I think there are those who cannot and will not accept our story. Strange, since we both post here and both agree with each other. Not sure what there is to question?
> 
> ...


Only the two of you are in the marriage. What, "the road", thinks is his opinion. It does not need to be taken seriously or even acknowledged. I'm not defending him. I wonder if you think I am? :scratchhead:

I think the fact that folks are all different, makes the site so informative. There are many folks who post things that seem controversial. I think those opinions are just due to the individuals coming from different backgrounds. 

I know this site is much different today, than it was when I first came. Back then, it was much more hard line divorce than today. Much of that has changed due to many of those members leaving. Some of that is good. Some of that is not. I think we all weed through what is posted, the best we can. 

Thanks for the comments.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

i agree with you...everyones opinions are welcome. We need to respect each other.

John and i are happy...and we know we have helped others here.

Life is good!


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> I went to Healer's Profile (what a strange nick for a person who is anything but a Healer), anyway I looked up past posts of you attacking my wife and started to post them but thought why? Perhaps you are such a small man that picking on women makes you feel big. Is this how you treated your wife.....hmmmmm
> 
> Yes, the road is the other character without balls that goes around trying to pick a fight with my wife. Another one that thinks I will pick on women since I am such a small little.....
> 
> So, yes, I will defend my wife from your uncalled on bashing.


Oh no, please, by all means, go ahead and post your collection. Let's see this in context. I haven't "attacked" anyone. I may have called her out on a post or 2 in which she described herself as something she was not. But really, let's see it. You certainly attacked me just now. 

Go ahead - I want to see all of my "attacks" on your wife.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

You are not worth my time


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> Oh no, please, by all means, go ahead and post your collection. Let's see this in context. I haven't "attacked" anyone. I may have called her out on a post or 2 in which she described herself as something she was not. But really, let's see it. You certainly attacked me just now.
> 
> Go ahead - I want to see all of my "attacks" on your wife.


Are you completely incapable of going back a few days on this thread and reading yourself? On second thought, don't bother. If your comprehension skills were that piss poor a few days ago I seriously doubt they have improved dramatically since.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

3putt said:


> Are you completely incapable of going back a few days on this thread and reading yourself? On second thought, don't bother. If your comprehension skills were that piss poor a few days ago I seriously doubt they have improved dramatically since.


Matter of fact I did just that - I didn't attack her even once. Wow dude! How embarrassing for you.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> You are not worth my time


Uh huh.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> Matter of fact I did just that - I didn't attack her even once. Wow dude! How embarrassing for you.


Uh huh.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

3putt said:


> Uh huh.


Are you seriously going to make those accusations and not back them up? I read every post in this thread and not once did I attack her. Come on man, this is ridiculous. It's really simple - you find the post in which I attacked her, and hit the "quote" button. And in reply to that you type - "see - right here!!". Go ahead, I ll give you time - cause I know you'll want to read really slowly, so you don't accidentally miss it.

I'm serious - go ahead.

ETA - I just read every post of mine in here. I mentioned her once, and it was explaining to her that I was addressing a post from her husband. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. Is there a "Heeler" posting smack about her?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> Are you seriously going to make those accusations and not back them up? I read every post in this thread and not once did I attack her. Come on man, this is ridiculous. It's really simple - you find the post in which I attacked her, and hit the "quote" button. And in reply to that you type - "see - right here!!". Go ahead, I ll give you time - cause I know you'll want to read really slowly, so you don't accidentally miss it.
> 
> I'm serious - go ahead.


No, you like to sit in the back seat and subtly piggy back off others posts. When you read your posts alone, they seem quite benign. But in conjunction with others, well, they're quite a bit less benign. 

I've been PMd a few times about it, so I'm not the only one that has noticed. I'm not wasting my time going through your crap and quoting your under the table insults in tandem with other posts. If you can't go back and see it for yourself, me reposting it sure as hell won't register with you either. 

Tell you what; I reported my own self to the mods about my initial post just to draw attention to this drumhead trial of a thread. Let's see how they interpret this ****storm.

ETA- Oh, and keep your idiotic PMs to yourself. If you can't say it here, then don't say it at all. That's a coward's way out.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

3putt said:


> No, you like to sit in the back seat and subtly piggy back off others posts. When you read your posts alone, they seem quite benign. But in conjunction with others, well, they're quite a bit less benign.
> 
> I've been PMd a few times about it, so I'm not the only one that has noticed. I'm not wasting my time going through your crap and quoting your under the table insults in tandem with other posts. If you can't go back and see it for yourself, me reposting it sure as hell won't register with you either.
> 
> ...


LOL. So in other words, you realize I didn't attack her at all. But now you're claiming I subliminally laid the boots? Or used Jedi mind tricks? You're a funny guy.

Again - I ask you to find the post(s) in this not so huge thread where I attacked her. It took me about 3.5 minutes to read everyone of my posts, and like I said, I addressed her ONCE, and it was to clarify something she said - it wasn't even remotely combative. Here, I'll post it for you:

"I was replying to a post by your husband. He stated that he is not here for opinions or advice - so obviously he feels that's what he's getting."

That is the ONLY post in which I engaged her or even said anything about her. And I'M the one with comprehension problems??


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> LOL. So in other words, you realize I didn't attack her at all. But now you're claiming I subliminally laid the boots? Or used Jedi mind tricks? You're a funny guy.
> 
> Again - I ask you to find the post(s) in this not so huge thread where I attacked her. It took me about 3.5 minutes to read everyone of my posts, and like I said, I addressed her ONCE, and it was to clarify something she said - it wasn't even remotely combative. Here, I'll post it for you:
> 
> ...


Just grow up.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> You are not worth my time


Hey JA look at it from my perspective. I get challenged on a statistic. Link the study to this thread. Make a very astute observation about the validity of the 80% of marriages survive an affair.

Now I do admit I need EI to read my posts and explain to everyone what I was saying but do we talk about the posts, nnooo!

Instead we attack a ONS from 30 years ago for a wonderful couple who have actually reconciled. I know, why don't we fight the War of 1812 again.

We also get into a Who's on First Discussion regarding the meaning of an EA. Guess what (second base) Who is on first and since we know all the facts Who himself does not care if Mrs. A calls it an EA or not. Why we continue to argue, I Don't Know but he is on third anyway.

Given this thread has become more like Seinfeld episode anyway, I have one question. "Are you missing a button?"


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

3putt said:


> Just grow up.


I think the adult thing here would be for you to admit you falsely accused me of attacking someone when I clearly did not. But, I can see that's not going to happen.

On another note I would like to apologize for me telling Mr Adams he was making it all about "me me me", when in fact I have posted a lot about my own situation in this thread. It was hypocritical of me, so, my apologies for that comment.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Thank you very much Mr. and Mrs. Adams for your replies. Also, thank you for putting yourselves out there. 

A lot of posters suffered the same harm as Mr. Adams and for one reason or another cannot accept that Mrs. Adams paid for her offense to the one she offended. Other posters still suffer from their wounds by their partners. Unfortunately, none of them will gain any peace by nitpicking her words or looking to expose her as a fraud. She's the real deal. A repentant, remorseful, restoring spouse. Face it, she did not do anything to you. You were not the victim of her infidelity; Mr. Adams was. She paid for her offense, he forgave her, and she has made continual restitution. 

If you have ever hurt someone that you love deeply, as she admits, then you know that the pain you experience upon realizing what you did never leaves you. I know someone who once injured their child while intentionally doing something stupid and dangerous. To this day, decades later, whenever they see the scar, they cringe. The realization that they hurt someone that they loved is overwhelming. Mrs. Adams is no saint, nor are any of us, but she sure has paid for her sins and she has shown herself worthy of her husband's respect and love. Further, she has earned my respect for putting herself out there like this. Bravo to her and him, because I would not have done what he did at that stage of my life. I would not endure triggers for 30 years. Forgiveness of this magnitude deserves recognition as well.

You are not going to find any cracks in their foundation. Stop looking and perhaps learn. Maybe the next woman that you find will not have to pay for the crimes of your former wives.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> I think the adult thing here would be for you to admit you falsely accused me of attacking someone when I clearly did not. But, I can see that's not going to happen.
> 
> On another note I would like to apologize for me telling Mr Adams he was making it all about "me me me", when in fact I have posted a lot about my own situation in this thread. It was hypocritical of me, so, my apologies for that comment.


I didn't falsely accuse you of anything. We weren't all wrong in what we saw, read, and interpreted. And not just on this thread either.

No apologies from me.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Healer said:


> I think the adult thing here would be for you to admit you falsely accused me of attacking someone when I clearly did not. But, I can see that's not going to happen.
> 
> On another note I would like to apologize for me telling Mr Adams he was making it all about "me me me", when in fact I have posted a lot about my own situation in this thread. It was hypocritical of me, so, my apologies for that comment.


This is good but do you know that if we assume that marriages with an A have a 80 % survival rate using a 50% D rate, marriages without an A would have to have over a 60& D rate.

That would mean a marriage without an A would be three times more likely to D than a marriage with an A.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

3putt said:


> I didn't falsely accuse you of anything. We weren't all wrong in what we saw, read, and interpreted. And not just on this thread either.
> 
> No apologies from me.


Straight up denial, huh? Even my children know that kind of tactic doesn't work. I think they each tried once or twice, when they were 3 or 4. But they grew out of it.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> Straight up denial, huh? Even my children know that kind of tactic doesn't work. I think they each tried once or twice, when they were 3 or 4. But they grew out of it.


Well, good. Perhaps you could learn from them.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

jim123 said:


> This is good but do you know that if we assume that marriages with an A have a 80 % survival rate using a 50% D rate, marriages without an A would have to have over a 60& D rate.
> 
> That would mean a marriage without an A would be three times more likely to D than a marriage with an A.


Well that's confusing! 

I actually have never begrudged anyone who R's. I've always said, that "I" couldn't do it, and always wished people well in whatever they choose. I've never tried to convince Mr A that he was wrong to forgive and R, or anything of the sort. "To each their own" has been my stance. D was for me, but that doesn't mean others can't successfully R. Hell, I wanted it BAD. Wasn't meant to be.

If you can do it, more power to you.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

3putt said:


> Well, good. Perhaps you could learn from them.


Keep shootin' blanks there partner. You straight up were proven utterly wrong, and now like a sullen 4 year old you refuse to cop to it.

You are amusing, though.

I'll ask one more time - and don't use the "I'm not going to waste my time blah blah". Quote me where I have attacked Mrs A. I'm still waiting, dear.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Healer said:


> Well that's confusing!
> 
> I actually have never begrudged anyone who R's. I've always said, that "I" couldn't do it, and always wished people well in whatever they choose. I've never tried to convince Mr A that he was wrong to forgive and R, or anything of the sort. "To each their own" has been my stance. D was for me, but that doesn't mean others can't successfully R. Hell, I wanted it BAD. Wasn't meant to be.
> 
> If you can do it, more power to you.


I did not R either. She wanted out and I held the door.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

jim123 said:


> I did not R either. She wanted out and I held the door.


Sorry to hear that. How are you doing these days? Sometimes that's the better way to go. Sadly, it's a sh*t sandwich whichever way you slice it.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

*And sorry, but metaphorically sticking a knife in your husband's back and twisting, twisting and turning it, by definition makes you NOT a "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind woman".

Matter of fact, that makes you the antithesis of that. Cheating is cruel, cold-hearted, calculated deceit and betrayal. It's one of the meanest, most heinous things you can do to a person - especially the one person you are supposed to love and cherish above all others. *

I suppose this was not an attack, merely a point of view towards my wife.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Healer said:


> Keep shootin' blanks there partner. You straight up were proven utterly wrong, and now like a sullen 4 year old you refuse to cop to it.
> 
> You are amusing, though.
> 
> I'll ask one more time - and don't use the "I'm not going to waste my time blah blah". Quote me where I have attacked Mrs A. I'm still waiting, dear.


LOL......


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Healer said:


> Sorry to hear that. How are you doing these days? Sometimes that's the better way to go. Sadly, it's a sh*t sandwich whichever way you slice it.


Not sorry, I moved on pretty well. It was a long time ago. I am married with two kids. Hit some bumps a few years ago that brought me to TAM.

Caught everything early and found I was as much of the problem if not most. Through TAM fixed that.

I found that even though I moved on, I never dealt with anything. I rug swept many issues and never faced them. They impacted all my relationships in some way.

The WW's on this site really opened my eyes and heart. Things are great now.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> *And sorry, but metaphorically sticking a knife in your husband's back and twisting, twisting and turning it, by definition makes you NOT a "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind woman".
> 
> Matter of fact, that makes you the antithesis of that. Cheating is cruel, cold-hearted, calculated deceit and betrayal. It's one of the meanest, most heinous things you can do to a person - especially the one person you are supposed to love and cherish above all others. *
> 
> I suppose this was not an attack, merely a point of view towards my wife.


It's a point of view towards anyone who cheats on their spouse and then calls them-self "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind woman". If a man cheated on his wife and then called himself a "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind man" I'd say the same. Challenging one's incorrect assessment of themself is not an attack - it's matter of fact. This was not an attack, this was calling someone out on their bull****.

If I got on here and professed to be "extremely understanding, compassionate and sympathetic towards wayward spouses", would you call me on it? Yes, because it's simply not true. 

I stand by my correction of her self assessment. I'll state it again:

Cheating is cruel, cold-hearted, calculated deceit and betrayal. It's one of the meanest, most heinous things you can do to a person - especially the one person you are supposed to love and cherish above all others.

If you consider that an "attack", you best thicken your skin.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Thank you for clarifying....I see why you do not think you are a attacking....you do not recognize your own disturbed personality. I would recommend that you immediately get into IC. Perhaps it can help you before you have another bad relationship.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Thank you for clarifying....I see why you do not think you are a attacking....you do not recognize your own disturbed personality. I would recommend that you immediately get into IC. Perhaps it can help you before you have another bad relationship.


So someone claims to be something they clearly are not, and someone calls them on it, and that's an attack?

Now your post, that was an attack. Pretty good, too.

Perhaps your wife, NOW, is all that warm, beautifulness she professed to be, but whilst inserting another dudes penis (read:not yours) into her vagina while you were dutifully working away, was she? Or would you agree with my assessment (or "attack")?


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

I stand by my previous professional assessment that you need IC. You appear to have anger issues along with recessed feelings. I see that we are the vent for your frustrations. So sorry for all your issues.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Goodnight mr Adams...I love you. See you tomorrow.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Healer said:


> It's a point of view towards anyone who cheats on their spouse and then calls them-self "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind woman". If a man cheated on his wife and then called himself a "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind man" I'd say the same. Challenging one's incorrect assessment of themself is not an attack - it's matter of fact. This was not an attack, this was calling someone out on their bull****.


I see the other quote and this one as attacks. Guess I have a thin skin too??

It just seems that they are happy with their R and her on time bad choice 30 years ago is now supposed to forever define her for the rest of her life according to you? Can people not learn and change from their mistakes?

If you ever cheated on a GF/BF when you were just starting to date (yet never cheated on a spouse) should you not also be labeled a cheater and heinous for life?

What if you were a bully to a child at the age of 8-10, should you forever be labeled a bully and only be viewed as one, no matter the compassion, humility, and selfless acts that you may have learned and exhibited since then?

If one is a repeat offender, I can see a point in contesting, but for a one time offense over half of the lifetime ago, shouldn't their dedication and actions speak for something?

I have been to war and experienced awful things while in the military, should I forever be judged for and by those experiences for the remainder of my days? If this is the case then maybe I should just give up all hope??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Healer I see your point, your general point which is of course the truth about infidelity and the reality, the gravity of what it does and what it is - no argument there, anyone who's been on the receiving end of it will know how right you are. 

However I think you might, after a night's sleep, acknowledge it can also be construed as edging 'personal' towards the person you aimed it at 

I would also say after two posters, a couple of weeks ago, accused me of something I never said in a thread that it is infuriating when you demand they back up their claims and they choose not to because they can't, so I completely understand your irritation about that

________

In respect of what you are actually saying to MJA again I see your point but in this scenario the passage of time - 30 years - is what makes this difficult. They have found their own way of dealing with it, Are they the same people now that they were then? maturity and experience can change the way subtly that you either accept a person or not. 

We are all different and I'd say most of us could not have endured the triggers etc over that time but love, trust respect and resentment is different for all people and we all have our individual answers to what infidelity throws at us 

Some are better able to put such huge trangressions and treachery behind them. I thought I could deal with it after more than one betrayal by my stbxw but upon reflection realize I never got past it from the start, never put down the strongest boundaries and my stbx wife was never going to stay inside the ones I flimsily hinted at, hence better to divorce (which I am still trying to do!) 

....... so we all deal with it differently


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Healer said:


> It's a point of view towards anyone who cheats on their spouse and then calls them-self "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind woman". If a man cheated on his wife and then called himself a "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind man" I'd say the same. *Challenging one's incorrect assessment of themself is not an attack - it's matter of fact.* This was not an attack, this was calling someone out on their bull****.
> 
> 
> Cheating is cruel, cold-hearted, calculated deceit and betrayal. It's one of the meanest, most heinous things you can do to a person - especially the one person you are supposed to love and cherish above all others.
> ...


Some humans learn from their mistakes and become better people. We are more than the sum of our choices. Providing an opinion about the validity of a strangers self assessment and then calling that misguided opinion fact really speaks volumes about you as an individual. Mr. JA has shown you some compassion by pointing out that you should seek some IC, I second his suggestion and urge you to seek out some counseling to help with the pain you seem to carry inside yourself.

Your definition of cheating implies that there is always calculated intent on the part of the cheater to cause harm to their spouse. In reality, as is common with major addiction, the cheater's mind is able to compartmentalize to a great degree and convince the cheater that their attempts at secrecy are going to shield their spouse from pain. It is very common in successful R stories (our own included) for the fWS to be devastated by the realization that their actions have caused so much damage to the person they LOVE.


@2ntnuf

I too think that the fWS take too much crap from people posting, PP is constantly asking me to reword my posts when someone is attacking her or another fWS, she says I have to be more compassionate about the pain they are still feeling and even though I may not require her to say the kind of things those people want to hear, she will still say them if it helps someone else in pain feel better. I find it hard to be nice sometimes, as I'm really protective of her, especially here.

I often hear her say what Mrs JA and EI say all the time too, that they dont want us to ever think they are slacking or dont want to talk about it anymore. Its all part of giving others who may be in this situation some hope.

--

That brings me to my closing point about the negative language and the need to constantly interject with hypercritical glass half-empty worst case scenario type of talk. Positivity an hope can foster love. Nurture that love and it will yield healing and progress. There is nothing nurturing about trying to pick apart the success of another couple in R.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Healer said:


> It's a point of view towards anyone who cheats on their spouse and then calls them-self "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind woman". If a man cheated on his wife and then called himself a "very compassionate, sympathetic, kind man" I'd say the same. Challenging one's incorrect assessment of themself is not an attack - it's matter of fact. This was not an attack, this was calling someone out on their bull****.
> 
> If I got on here and professed to be "extremely understanding, compassionate and sympathetic towards wayward spouses", would you call me on it? Yes, because it's simply not true.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. But I can also acknowledge that a single moment of infidelity* can be *an outlier for someone's personality.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

3putt said:


> You, TR, and one other have been tag teaming her for some time now. Just go back and read what you all have written and see if you would stand aside and allow it if it were your wife.
> 
> You're a lot more subtle than TR, but not THAT subtle.


The thing is... with 'stand for it, allow it...' 

Welcome to the Internet. Not everyone will 'like' you or your posts.. Not everyone is going to treat you with the respect you think you deserve. People can hide behind anonymous. Everyone's a tough guy.

If you don't like the heat, don't hang out in the kitchen... and if you hang out in the kitchen, and keep getting upset every time it gets warm, you look silly. You can't ask someone to leave the Internet because they don't agree with you, or they're making you upset. If you have thin skin, then Internet message forums, are not for you.

I read about how Mrs. A had a couple months of heavy flirting, eventually had sex with someone, but claim there was no emotional attachment. I think "what a crock of bull, her husband is spot on that it was an EA"... So I can voice that opinion. It strikes a special nerve with me because I've been betrayed, so I'm sensitive to any minimizing, anything that doesn't make sense. She claims that if she divorces now, it would have nothing to do with the fact that she had an A.. even though 30 years later her and her husband are obviously still trying to cope. They are in a good place now, but in my mind, that's her dismissing it to ease her own guilt. Why even say that? A BS will project what they would think if they had to hear that. I don't like to see a WS giving her spouse bull... If she doesn't want others to chime in, she shouldn't put it out there in a public forum. Do I have a hard time with trusting right now? Yes.. I do.. I'm sure I'm not alone.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Wow, even after a night's respite this theme is still going on. I don't know how or why Mr and Mrs JA themselves became an object of speculation or inquiry (they have never asked for opinion or input on their own situation, merely told their story in response to others' requests). Let's take a little break. And I hope that when and if Mr and Mrs JA offer their story of hope and reconciliation to someone else who needs it, this same exchange of opinions (let's call it) will not be replayed. It serves no purpose.

Russell: for the record, I don't know if Mrs JA would agree with the characterization "heavy flirting." She never spent any time alone with this guy until the actual day she went with him. How can you have an "affair" under those circumstances? She was attracted to him, had what you might call an adult crush, but it only led to what it did because he played all his cards at once to get what he wanted. It was in fact a ONS, or a OALD (one afternoon lie down), but not an affair in any meaningful sense of the word. IMHO, that is.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

3putt said:


> No road, and you're the only one that is blind here. I know your story, and it's quite obvious to me that you are nothing more than jealous of MJA because she is everything that your WW is NOT.
> 
> Obviously you don't even bother to read JA's take on all this, otherwise you would just let it go. But no; you have to keep gnawing and gnawing and gnawing.
> 
> ...


Nothing to do with anger.

When a WW can not own up to what she did. Admitting to having sex with an OM is not that same as calling a EA turned PA a ONS.

There have been countless EA's from 2 months to 2 years where the WW and the OM only hooked up once.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Philat said:


> Wow, even after a night's respite this theme is still going on. I don't know how or why Mr and Mrs JA themselves became an object of speculation or inquiry (they have never asked for opinion or input on their own situation, merely told their story in response to others' requests). Let's take a little break. And I hope that when and if Mr and Mrs JA offer their story of hope and reconciliation to someone else who needs it, this same exchange of opinions (let's call it) will not be replayed. It serves no purpose.
> 
> Russell: for the record, I don't know if Mrs JA would agree with the characterization "heavy flirting." She never spent any time alone with this guy until the actual day she went with him. How can you have an "affair" under those circumstances? She was attracted to him, had what you might call an adult crush, but it only led to what it did because he played all his cards at once to get what he wanted. It was in fact a ONS, or a OALD (one afternoon lie down), but not an affair in any meaningful sense of the word. IMHO, that is.


They didn't ask for input or opinions, but they put the story out there, so that opens them up to others input and opinions.

As for Mrs. JA.. okay, lets call it light flirting. You call it a crush, attraction.. call it what you like. I call it emotional attachment. What were these magic cards the OM played? I need to get a deck of those.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

For the love of God let it go. Captain Ahab was less obsessed.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

3putt said:


> Obviously you don't even bother to read JA's take on all this, otherwise you would just let it go. But no; you have to keep gnawing and gnawing and gnawing.


I have read. JA's words are his WW had a EA then a PA.

MrsJA say's she did not have a EA/PA, rather she had a ONS.

The conflict is that after 30 years they are not on the same page. 30+ years later and why this affair still caused problems.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

It's true, Mrs. JA herself said that Mr. JA thinks it was an EA.. I agree with him. I can't agree with both of them, since they don't agree with each other.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

russell28 said:


> The thing is... with 'stand for it, allow it...'
> 
> Welcome to the Internet. Not everyone will 'like' you or your posts.. Not everyone is going to treat you with the respect you think you deserve. People can hide behind anonymous. Everyone's a tough guy.
> 
> ...


Exactly this.

A WW can confess to an affair or she can get caught. Does not matter because she still had sex with the OM.

A WW can trickle truth taking years to get all the truth out or tell all on D day.

She can admit to the sex. The WW can apologize for the sex. WW can say she regretted the sex.

Though when a WW still does damage control and minimize what she did by trying to use terms that make it appear her affair was much less then what it was is not being remorseful. She is in damage control mode.

Being in damage control mode is not being honest.

MrsJA is not owning what she did because she has not been 100% honest.

MrsJA, what is it that your BH needed for 30+ plus years after D day?


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

theroad said:


> MrsJA, what is it that your BH needed for 30+ plus years after D day?


Read her story as posted on her personal profile. She has only answered this question 65,000 times already.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

He needed for me to acknowledge that I am responsible for his tremendous pain that my fvcking another man caused him.

He needed to know that I understood his pain and that I was sorry for causing it.


He needed to know that I know that I am responsible for causing his pain for fvcking another man.

He needed to know that I know that I caused his pain.

He wanted to make sure that I understood that I was responsible for causing his pain.

I fvcked another man...it caused my husband pain. I am responsible for that pain.


I fvcked another man. It hurt my husband. I am responsible for that pain.


I fvcked another man. One time. And We will live with that choice and the consequences of it the rest of our lives. I am deeply sorry for the pain I have caused him.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Philat said:


> Read her story as posted on her personal profile. She has only answered this question 65,000 times already.


I believe that was a rhetorical question, like 'he wants honesty, so be honest' was the point.. I believe in order for him to get honesty, she'll have to first be honest with herself.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

John and Abagail  let this thread go. Just don't post to it. Your energies are better spent elsewhere.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I believe that was a rhetorical question, like 'he wants honesty, so be honest' was the point.. I believe in order for him to get honesty, she'll have to first be honest with herself.


This is what is so baffling--unless this is just a terminological quibble, how can anyone in their right mind have actually read all the things both of them have posted and think Mrs JA has not been honest with herself? Mr JA didn't care whether it was an EA, PA, RA, NCAA or PTA. What he needed was a certain way of expressing remorse, which he finally got. She wasn't withholding this because she wasn't being honest with herself--she just needed guidance. He gave it to her. This happened before Mrs JA came to TAM.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

OMG....how some people are so consumed with semantics.

I do not care if it is called and EA a PA a ONS an EIEIO. For the life of me I do not know what the debate is about. So, if you want to quote Mr. Adams....I do not care what you call it....and I would also say Mrs. JA does not care what you call it.

The bottom line is the bottom line so it really does not matter.

On top of that it was 30 years ago. Nothing like a little healthy debate, but whoa this is ridiculous.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

JohnAdams what is an EIEIO? Just Kidding

I think I remember that Mr. Adams posted if you hurt Mrs. Adams you hurt him.


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## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

here is what you can call it...I fvcked another man. 

Have a safe flight mr adams... I love you and will see you this afternoon. The hot tub and a bottle of rombauer are waiting for you...and so am I.


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