# Ex is depressed



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

had an ex gf reach out to me saying she's depressed...

We were together for like a 1.5 years. Dumped her because I was bending over backwards for her, but she'd call me out on mistakes or perceived slights and insinuate I didn't care about her despite everything I was doing for relationship. Meanwhile she wasn't putting in any work into the relationship herself. When we were together she even had a fling with one of her exes who was in a horrible drug-addicted state. claims she was trying to support him recover and things got over-emotional...I think she may have some kind of NPD tbh, but fwiw there's a lot of hysteria about that term online, so I think it might not be such a helpful label. 

what I know for sure:

she handles stress horribly, and so when we were together it was usually up to me to fix problems she was getting herself into.

She seems to jump from one long term boyfriend to another since she was 14(we're 27 btw) and I think this is because she was severely neglected by her family, so she turns to boyfriends to take care of her. So the dynamic of our relationship feels like I'm taking care of a child. 

last I spoke to her was nine months ago, we were trying to be friends, but it didn't work. I sent one message in that nine month span of NC two months ago telling her I'm sorry for my own part in our break up, my poor communication caused by my own depression(I know it sounds bad, I shouldn't apologize for being depressed, but in the moment of writing that I was having a revelation about my own limitation; before getting psychiatric treatment), but maintained that I've been improving and have been feeling good in solitude. No response until over a week ago where she said she's glad I'm better, but she's become depressed. No details and pretty straight forward. 

I've been doing pretty well, focusing on my own hobbies and well-being. I neglected myself when I was with her.
I do miss her affection and physically she was ideal to me, and it's always nice to go OUT with her, but idk that I can look past all the other stuff. I'd be willing to work towards a better relationship with her, if she was willing to take a hard look at herself, but I'm not getting any indication in the brief "I'm depressed" response that she's self-reflected, or maybe the depression is an indicator...It just seems kinda baiting to me. 

The situation I'm in: abandon her or jump back in and risk falling back into the same cycle of care-taking. 
Is there a third way. I feel like I was go into our late 20's, especially for her, there's some pressure to settled down.


----------



## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

What do you want to do?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Abandon.

She has shown you who she is. It will happen again. 

Her reaching out is her looking for you to rescue her. As soon as she feels safe, the old behavior will return.

The beauty is that you get to choose whether it happens to you or some other poor schlub who thinks she loves him.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

The "I'm depressed" is bait she's throwing out. She wants you to engage and feel sorry for her. Your not abandoning anything, the relationship is over. Leave it in the past.


----------



## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

Leave this one in the rear view mirror. 

You can randomly randomly pick a better lady than her. No regrets. 

Tell you what. Before you commit, try dating 2 or 3 ladies at the same time (as if girls never do that). It's fun!


----------



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

leon2100 said:


> What do you want to do?


I've been living pretty peacefully, I enjoy it. The only thing I'd change is incorporate my good moments with this girl into my current existence. idk if that's shallow. Sometimes I feel like I'm overreacting to the flaws I perceive. I once told her I felt I had been taken for granted by her, and she couldn't comprehend why I would feel that way. Maybe she was playing dumb or maybe it was sincere. It didn't help that I couldn't elaborate on my claim, due to my own horrible communication skills at that time. She couldn't do much to remedy the situation unless I got more specific, but having to spell things out like that whenever we had conflict was frustrating. On the rare occasion that I'd speak up more, she'd have excuses or treat me like I'm overreacting. 


farsidejunky said:


> Abandon.
> 
> She has shown you who she is. It will happen again.
> 
> ...


I hope so. I really did like her. For whatever reason she has trust issues stemming from her previous relationships. I know the previous guy she was with for 5 yrs ended up like I did, really drained, but he ditched her immediately for another girl which burned my ex a bit. All the others cheated on her at one point or another. I didn't leave her for anyone other than myself. 



honcho said:


> The "I'm depressed" is bait she's throwing out. She wants you to engage and feel sorry for her. Your not abandoning anything, the relationship is over. Leave it in the past.


This was my immediate response upon reading the message. I started thinking more about it though and she really doesn't have much support. If she really is depressed than maybe my non-response steer her to a more long term healing rather than my babying her. 



Dannip said:


> Tell you what. Before you commit, try dating 2 or 3 ladies at the same time (as if girls never do that). It's fun!


Funny thing is, I was already talking and trying to arrange a meet with a new girl maybe a week before I got my ex's message. The message kinda stalled those efforts. I think my ex may have seen I was active on my dating site profile(where I met my ex) and maybe that prompted her to reach out.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Ditto to all the responders. Don't do it. RUN.


----------



## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

My wife is like this, too. Very emotionally unstable and I often felt like I was taking care of a daughter rather than having a marriage with an adult woman. 

Rather than NPD, it may be BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). There are a couple of threads in this forum you might find useful.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...n/387050-can-we-have-official-bpd-thread.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physical-mental-health-issues/387170-official-bpd-thread.html

But if I were you, I would not get back with her. Consider it a bullet dodged and move on.


----------



## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

cremetown said:


> I've been living pretty peacefully, I enjoy it. The only thing I'd change is incorporate my good moments with this girl into my current existence. idk if that's shallow.


I wouldn't call it "shallow" but I would say it's unrealistic. There are millions of people in this country. Go find one without all the baggage/issues. Sure, relationships can look downright decent in hindsight, particularly when we are feeling in need of companionship. Trust me on this. I was married to a hardcore alcoholic. Underneath the addiction was a decent human being. There are times I miss that decent guy. But I'm not going to romance what was by trying to rewrite history. And to be perfectly honest, you can't rescue her from herself. She can get therapy, medication (if needed), support, whatever. 

You can be sorry she's depressed. Suggest she seek help. Suggest she call her bff. But don't revisit what you have already left behind.

SERIOUSLY.

P.S. - And living peacefully is worth its weight in gold. I live alone with a senior-citizen cat. Sure, I get lonely now and then. But to live drama-free and not have to put up with someone else's issues? Priceless.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

An ex?

Seriously, who gives a ****?

Block her number, block her on social media, and move on.


----------



## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Your Mr. Nice White knight personality will only lead you down the road of drama. She is not your responsibility, leave the project for someone else.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

cremetown said:


> had an *ex* gf



... and this is your problem because....?


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

She's your ex. Her problems have nothing to do with you. Tell her you're sorry she's depressed and suggest she seek professional help. If money is an issue, tell her she can Google "mental health help <her area>" or check with her Dept. of Health and Human Services to get referrals to free or sliding scale help. Then wish her well and move on.

"An ex is an ex for a reason."

"Having sex with an ex is like taking a shower and putting on dirty underwear."

Remember those 2 things and you'll be fine.


----------



## Sly Fox (Jun 6, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Her reaching out is her looking for you to rescue her. As soon as she feels safe, the old behavior will return.


You don't know that for sure. The OP reached out first, so the same can be said from her end if someone looks at it from the outside.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Dannip said:


> Leave this one in the rear view mirror.
> 
> You can randomly randomly pick a better lady than her. No regrets.
> 
> Tell you what. Before you commit, try dating 2 or 3 ladies at the same time (as if girls never do that). It's fun!


Its cruel.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

if she is depressed then suggest she gets medical help and advise. She presumably has female friends she can go to?
I think it would be very unwise to be back in touch with her.


----------



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

Ghost Rider said:


> My wife is like this, too. Very emotionally unstable and I often felt like I was taking care of a daughter rather than having a marriage with an adult woman.
> 
> Rather than NPD, it may be BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). There are a couple of threads in this forum you might find useful.
> 
> But if I were you, I would not get back with her. Consider it a bullet dodged and move on.


Ah interesting. I've read a bit about BPD too, initially thought that was the problem, but my ex seemed too high-functioning and lacked the suicidal/self harming tendencies you see in BPD(although she did end up in a psychward of some kind for anorexia when she was younger). That's why I deferred more towards NPD, but even with NPD the more manipulative stuff...I didn't really see that from her beyond some emotional blackmail stemming from trust/abandonment issues. however A lot of the other NPD traits were apt, but then so are some of the BPD traits. thanks.




MJJEAN said:


> She's your ex. Her problems have nothing to do with you. Tell her you're sorry she's depressed and suggest she seek professional help. If money is an issue, tell her she can Google "mental health help <her area>" or check with her Dept. of Health and Human Services to get referrals to free or sliding scale help. Then wish her well and move on.
> 
> "An ex is an ex for a reason."
> 
> ...


Perhaps, I worry that even initiating contact again will suck me back in. She makes it harder because she's suspicious of professional medicine iirc. Was really into self-help, new-agey stuff. Put a lot of stock in that stuff, but in all honesty, I feel like she's neglecting herself with that treatment. 


Sly Fox said:


> You don't know that for sure. The OP reached out first, so the same can be said from her end if someone looks at it from the outside.


Yeah I don't think I'd be putting so much energy thinking about this situation if it wasn't a response to my own stupid message. I gave it about a month after my message, no response, I decided to start talking to other people and focusing on myself more. Another month goes by and there's a message from her. It's not what I wanted to hear, and I knew there was that chance. Idk I didn't ask her to reach out explicitly. My msg to her was just me owning up to my shortcomings in the relationship. I did say I miss her, but also followed up with "I have been finding a lot of peeeeeace in solitude." and I did credit our time together as the cause for me getting back on track in life. I was just being honest, albeit it might not have been the right time to do it. Her response to me "I'm depressed, its been hard" could be honest too, but that's all she wrote. I feel like my message gave her room to not have to follow up, I literally wrote "you don't have to respond to this." I know I shouldn't be surprised to get a response. it just feels like her message implies "if you care you'll respond" and It's kinda illustrative of how our relationship has always been. I would want something different with her. Maybe the ex is an ex sentiment is best to follow.


----------



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> if she is depressed then suggest she gets medical help and advise. She presumably has female friends she can go to?
> I think it would be very unwise to be back in touch with her.


Yeah she has some, from what I can tell she inevitably pisses them off, or they piss her off. most the time they reconcile, but I feel like her friends are even more aimless than her.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

cremetown said:


> Yeah she has some, from what I can tell she inevitably pisses them off, or they piss her off. most the time they reconcile, but I feel like her friends are even more aimless than her.


She is the only one who can make changes in her life and seek the help she needs. How about you suggest she gets medical help or counselling?


----------



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> She is the only one who can make changes in her life and seek the help she needs. How about you suggest she gets medical help or counselling?


it's been crossing my mind. I should sleep on it though. I was losing my identity when we were together. She had some placeholder issue, constantly asked if I really loved her, if I'd stay with her even if I come across someone "better", and it's draining to hear that from the person you sacrifice everything for. It just pushed me to do more and more for her to make her stop thinking that way. I called her out on this habit once and she apologized, admitted it's not fair to me, but it's an issue she has and she just needs to hear me reassure her. I tried to carry on, but I was losing myself in this dynamic. It wouldn't have gotten to that point if I didn't sincerely think she was great. If I'm going to be out somewhere with someone it feels good when it's her. I tried to make an effort to travel to some different cities after we broke up, and in the back of my head was "she'd be a fun travel buddy" but the risk of falling back into the bad stuff is such a distressing thought. I'm leaning towards letting this one go, seems like there are still too many feelings. Maybe I'm exaggerating or being unfair to her, given that I started this whole kerfuffle, but recounting everything and getting some outside input is sobering.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You want to lose your identity again get in touch.

Ex = not viable anymore


----------



## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

cremetown said:


> Ah interesting. I've read a bit about BPD too, initially thought that was the problem, but my ex seemed too high-functioning and lacked the suicidal/self harming tendencies you see in BPD(although she did end up in a psychward of some kind for anorexia when she was younger). That's why I deferred more towards NPD, but even with NPD the more manipulative stuff...I didn't really see that from her beyond some emotional blackmail stemming from trust/abandonment issues.  however A lot of the other NPD traits were apt, but then so are some of the BPD traits. thanks.


I'm not sure what your source is, but I never saw suicidal/self-harming tendencies in the list of symptoms for BPD. I'm not sure that you can rule that out. A person with BPD can be high-functioning to some extent. My wife was never able to hold down a job or develop a career in general, but she's been doing substitute teaching for a couple of years now.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

cremetown said:


> I've read a bit about BPD too, initially thought that was the problem, but my ex seemed too high-functioning and lacked the suicidal/self harming tendencies you see in BPD (although she did end up in a psych ward of some kind for anorexia when she was younger).


Cremetown, I agree with @Ghost Rider that you may be describing strong warning signs for BPD, not NPD. As *Ghost* explains, BPD cannot be ruled out by the lack of "suicidal/self harming tendencies." On the contrary, the vast majority of BPDers -- even those having full-blown BPD -- do not exhibit cutting, suicide attempts, or other self harming behavior. Study results suggest that these high functioning BPD sufferers account for 2/3 to 3/4 of all full-blown BPDers. 

Granted, one of the nine defining symptoms for BPD behavior is "Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats or self-harming behavior, such as cutting." Keep in mind, however, that a person can be diagnosed as having full-blown BPD without meeting all nine of the defining symptoms. The diagnostic guidelines only require that 5 of the 9 symptoms be met.

As to your Ex being hospitalized in a psych ward for her anorexia, I note that this may be evidence of self harming. BPD.com reports that, _"While men with BPD are more likely to have a co-occurring substance abuse disorder, women with BPD are more likely to have eating disorders.... Self-induced vomiting and the abuse of laxatives are damaging behaviors that demonstrate self-harm."_ See BPD.com. 



> That's why I deferred more towards NPD, but even with NPD the more manipulative stuff...I didn't really see that from her beyond some emotional blackmail stemming from trust/abandonment issues.


Although BPDers typically are very controlling, they usually are far too reactive to their current feelings to be any good at manipulation. To be successful, manipulation usually requires careful planning and flawless execution of the plan -- a skill usually seen in narcissist and sociopaths. 

Whereas BPDers are moody and unstable, narcissists and sociopaths have the stability necessary for planning and executing a manipulative scheme. In contrast, BPDers are so reactive that they typically exhibit manipulation only when an opportunity suddenly presents itself and all they have to do is to take advantage of the situation. There are other differences too. For example, whereas full-blown narcissists are unable to love, BPDers are capable of loving very intensely (albeit in the immature way that a young child is able to love).



> She constantly asked if I really loved her, if I'd stay with her even if I come across someone "better", and it's draining to hear that from the person you sacrifice everything for.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits), her greatest fear is of abandonment. A BPDer often sees threats of abandonment in common, every day events that really pose no threat at all. Moreover, a BPDer lives in fear that, even if you really do seem to love her at this moment in time, you will immediately abandon her as soon as you discover how empty and worthless she is on the inside. This is why _"Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment"_ is one of the nine defining symptoms for BPD.



> Her response to me "I'm depressed, its been hard"....


A 2008 study found that 80% of female full-blown BPDers suffer from a co-occurring mood disorder such as depression or bipolar -- and 81% suffer from an anxiety disorder at some point in their lifetimes. 



> So the dynamic of our relationship feels like I'm taking care of a child.


As you likely already know from your reading, full-blown BPDers typically have the emotional development of a four year old. This is why they usually exhibit the warmth, intensity, vulnerability, and purity of expressions that otherwise is seen only in young children. And this is why it is so easy to fall in love with them and, despite their temper tantrums and sulking, it is so difficult to walk away from them. You will feel like you're abandoning a sick young child.



> So when we were together it was usually up to me to fix problems she was getting herself into.


If your Ex is a BPDer (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum), she has a powerful need to frequently "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." As long as you are attempting to rescue her, she gets that validation. What is important -- as a source of validation -- is not that you are actually saving her but, rather, that you are repeatedly making an effort to do so. This is why, after you've pulled a BPDer from the raging seas, she will jump right back into the water as soon as you turn your head.

Yet, when a BPDer's infatuation for you starts evaporating about 4-6 months into the R/S, your "rescuing" days will get farther apart and fewer. Instead, the BPDer will start validating her false image of being The Victim by blaming you for every misfortune to befall her. By perceiving you as "The Perpetrator," a BPDer is able to validate her false self identity as the perpetual victim.



> She was severely neglected by her family.


A 2008 study found that 70% of BPDers report they had been neglected, abused, or abandoned by a parent during childhood. Granted, most abused children do NOT develop BPD. Such abuse nonetheless greatly raises the risk for their doing so.



> She has trust issues stemming from her previous relationships.


Perhaps so. Yet, if she is a BPDer, her inability to trust almost certainly stems from her experiences in early childhood (together with heredity).



> She inevitably pisses [her friends] off, or they piss her off.


High functioning BPDers may have many casual friends. The typically have no long-term close friends, however (unless the friend lives a long distance away). The reason is that, whenever a casual friend makes the mistake of drawing close, she will start triggering the BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment).



> I was losing my identity when we were together.


That is to be expected if you were dating a BPDer or a narcissist. One reason is that both of them quickly become enmeshed with their partners because they lack any strong personal boundaries. That is, they cannot see where their feelings/problems leave off and yours begin. Another reason for losing your sense of self when dating these people is that, after the infatuation period ends, they will allow you to remain in the R/S only as long as you walk on eggshells -- i.e., not behaving like your true self -- to avoid triggering their anger and sulking.

If you're interested, Cremetown, I suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_ to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join *Ghost* and the other respondents in discussing them with you. 

Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your Ex's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid taking her back or avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. Take care, Cremetown.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

cremetown said:


> it's been crossing my mind. I should sleep on it though. I was losing my identity when we were together. She had some placeholder issue, constantly asked if I really loved her, if I'd stay with her even if I come across someone "better", and it's draining to hear that from the person you sacrifice everything for. It just pushed me to do more and more for her to make her stop thinking that way. I called her out on this habit once and she apologized, admitted it's not fair to me, but it's an issue she has and she just needs to hear me reassure her. I tried to carry on, but I was losing myself in this dynamic. It wouldn't have gotten to that point if I didn't sincerely think she was great. If I'm going to be out somewhere with someone it feels good when it's her. I tried to make an effort to travel to some different cities after we broke up, and in the back of my head was "she'd be a fun travel buddy" but the risk of falling back into the bad stuff is such a distressing thought. I'm leaning towards letting this one go, seems like there are still too many feelings. Maybe I'm exaggerating or being unfair to her, given that I started this whole kerfuffle, but recounting everything and getting some outside input is sobering.


Yes it wasn't really wise to contact her. It seems she looks to people to make her better when she can only do that herself.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

cremetown said:


> it's been crossing my mind. I should sleep on it though. I was losing my identity when we were together. She had some placeholder issue, constantly asked if I really loved her, if I'd stay with her even if I come across someone "better", and it's draining to hear that from the person you sacrifice everything for. It just pushed me to do more and more for her to make her stop thinking that way. I called her out on this habit once and she apologized, admitted it's not fair to me, but it's an issue she has and she just needs to hear me reassure her. I tried to carry on, but I was losing myself in this dynamic. It wouldn't have gotten to that point if I didn't sincerely think she was great. If I'm going to be out somewhere with someone it feels good when it's her. I tried to make an effort to travel to some different cities after we broke up, and in the back of my head was "she'd be a fun travel buddy" but the risk of falling back into the bad stuff is such a distressing thought. I'm leaning towards letting this one go, seems like there are still too many feelings. Maybe I'm exaggerating or being unfair to her, given that I started this whole kerfuffle, but recounting everything and getting some outside input is sobering.


You tried to contact her 2 months ago and she blew you off, you can sit and blame yourself that you initiated contact again but I wouldn't dwell on it much. Her message most likely had little to do with yours other than she knew you were still thinking about her. Her message was also a telltale sign of the very problem that you broke up with her to begin with. It was all about her "misery". No acknowledgement of your past text, nothing about how you are doing, just her and her problems. 

She wants you to step right back into the very role you got out of once. 6 months from now you'll be right back to feeling burnt out.


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Wait a sec

I thought all she said was she was depressed?

Did she say specifically she wants to be with you again? Be friends?

Seems to me all she did was reach out and from that you've gone off on your own extrapolating 3000 scenarios from getting back together to being friends and whatever else outside that or in between.

Also between breaking up with her and now you've been out with 200 women and from that you've deduced this girl is the best fit?

You mention focusing on yourself etc etc but yet you're willing to jump into the same relationship setup from years ago on the hope this girl is willing to take a look at herself, something she should have done already but most importantly having to fix, mend repair stuff when dating should be fun and enjoyable.

Besides my friend she cheated on you and literally all she had to do was utter a word and she's hooked you line and sinker.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Enjoy the karma, thank God you are done with her bull and forget about it. Knights in shining armor die for the damsel, it's the king who gets the girl.


----------



## Sly Fox (Jun 6, 2017)

There is a hell of a lot of analysis going on here in regards to this woman. All she did was reply to the OP after he engaged her first, saying she was depressed. 
@Uptown you have provided quite a lot of insight, and what sounds like very excellent information. Just curious if I may ask what your professional qualifications are?


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Sly Fox said:


> There is a hell of a lot of analysis going on here in regards to this woman.


No, Sly, *Ghost* and I are not trying to analyze the woman. We've never met her and don't know a thing about her. We are simply responding to *Cremetown's* statement that he had earlier concluded that she exhibits strong BPD symptoms but he had ruled out BPD as a possibility due to her lack of self harming. *Ghost* and I observed that a person doesn't have to exhibit all nine BPD symptoms to be diagnosed as having a strong pattern of BPD symptoms. Whether the woman is actually exhibiting strong BPD traits is something that Ghost and I cannot possibly know.

Generally, what I try to do here on TAM is to help people understand what strong BPD behaviors look like so they can decide -- for themselves -- whether they are seeing most of those behaviors. They are easy to spot when you know which behaviors are on the list of symptoms. That's why hundreds of mental health centers publish the list on their public websites.



> Uptown you have provided quite a lot of insight, and what sounds like very excellent information. Just curious if I may ask what your professional qualifications are?


Sly, I have no advanced degrees in psychology. I am simply sharing my experiences from reading about BPD -- and from taking my BPDer exW to weekly visits with six psychologists and three MCs over a 15 year period.


----------



## TheSam (Jul 15, 2017)

Abandon .. Don't look back.. Trust me you don't want to fall again in an endless circle of problems and troubles


----------



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

Ghost Rider said:


> I'm not sure what your source is, but I never saw suicidal/self-harming tendencies in the list of symptoms for BPD. I'm not sure that you can rule that out. A person with BPD can be high-functioning to some extent. My wife was never able to hold down a job or develop a career in general, but she's been doing substitute teaching for a couple of years now.


Yeah the stat "2/3-3/4 BPDer" are high functioning is making me think it's more likely BPD. My ex, she held down jobs, but her long term goals are always changing. She stated she thinks she has some ADD or something because she doesn't want to commit to one job-path or career, but even with whatever long term goal she has atm it just seems like talk. There's not much action.


Uptown said:


> High functioning BPDers may have many casual friends. The typically have no long-term close friends, however (unless the friend lives a long distance away). The reason is that, whenever a casual friend makes the mistake of drawing close, she will start triggering the BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment).


Okay this resonates. The two friends that she only has good-things to say about live far away(One across the country and the other 2-3 hours out of town driving)



Uptown said:


> As you likely already know from your reading, full-blown BPDers typically have the emotional development of a four year old. This is why they usually exhibit the warmth, intensity, vulnerability, and purity of expressions that otherwise is seen only in young children. And this is why it is so easy to fall in love with them and, despite their temper tantrums and sulking, it is so difficult to walk away from them. You will feel like you're abandoning a sick young child.





Uptown said:


> That is the way nearly all relationships begin with a high functioning BPDer (i.e., person having most BPD traits at a strong level). Because a BPDer has a fragile and unstable sense of who she is, she will mirror all the best aspects of your personality during the infatuation period, which typically lasts up to six months. The result is that this honeymoon period likely will be the most passionate and romantic time of your life (unless, of course, you subsequently date another BPDer). Both of you will be absolutely convinced that you've met your soul mate.





Uptown said:


> Yes, while a BPDer is splitting you white, she is very VERY good. At that time, you likely will see a warmth of expression and emotional purity that otherwise is seen only in children. My exW, for example, was so immediately likeable and disarming that, within a half hours, total strangers would feel like they had known her for months. The highs of being split white and the lows of being split black are comparable to the highs and lows of heroine usage and withdrawal. This is one reason why a relationship with a BPDer quickly can become so toxic and addictive, especially for excessive caregivers like you and me. Our problem is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). Indeed, we have difficulty feeling that we are truly loved if the woman does not also desperately need us. This is why you are at risk, when leaving your W, of running into the arms of another woman just like her.


mirroring is interesting I wonder how much of that was in play. We loved the same music, it was a blast to see shows with her. The affection was great too albeit kind of rigid. 

Okay the whole splitting white/black explanation helps. It fits her modus operandi. I think because it was just a 1-1.5 year thing, the honey moon phase and the really good moments in the latter half of the relationship _almost_ distract from the really bad , but I think the really bad stuff could have been worse...since I always read real horror stories about BPD online...I hadn't really experienced that stuff, so I put the BPD explanation aside. I actually think now, because she had the fling with her ex halfway through our relationship, around the time honeymoon would have been ending, there was some guilt that she was coping with which in turn de-fanged, or stalled splitting black. She thought I had some leverage over her. I never brought up the infidelity again after the week it happened(she fessed immediately after it happened). What happened though, after the infidelity, was any slight or unhappiness coming from me became de-legitamized as a resentful act for her fling. I didn't realize this until much later after we broke up. I can tell you, any grievances I had with her, weren't stemming from that bad episode specifically, but rather, the source of what even made that episode possible. What felt like just general inconsideration for me. But all this stuff you write, here and from other threads gives me some perspective on why I'm a little stuck on her. The withdrawal comparison is something I'll reflect on more. 


Uptown said:


> Like I said, you have ten seconds before the kid is in charge. It therefore does not matter -- at all -- that you have caught her in a calm, apparently receptive mood. And she is so super-sensitive to perceived infractions, she may even take offense at the sugar coating itself (thinking you are talking down to her). The statements and actions that will trigger a release of her anger consist of anything that she interprets as posing a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment (from intimacy). Because you never know what trivial thing will trigger one fear or the other, you are always walking on eggshells.


Interesting, I definitely felt like I was walking on eggshells. always scared to get misconstrued as being careless or insensitive. Idk if that's because I'm generally pretty conflict adverse, or because when I did open up more, our convos would be painfully drawn out if there was a disagreement.


----------



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

Anyone here with BPD-partner experience read "When hope is not enough" by Bon Dobbs? Supposed to give a framework for living peacefully with someone with BPD. Over half way done. maybe I'll finish it tonight. The strategies/approach are kinda like the dynamic I already went through with my ex(people pleasing), but the book supposedly maximizes the effectiveness of said dynamic, so things are still rigid, but the nonBPD can navigate the rigidity better. Curious if anyone here has attempted these techniques. honesly as I read this, it doesn't seem terribly fulfilling, but I might just be harboring some resentment, I would need to work out.


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Why not put the book down and go out with someone without BPD?

Sheesh pal move on already.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

cremetown said:


> Anyone here with BPD-partner experience read "When hope is not enough" by Bon Dobbs? Supposed to give a framework for living peacefully with someone with BPD.


Cremetown, as I noted earlier, all of us exhibit the nine BPD traits to some degree. My experience is that, when those traits rise only to a mild or moderate level, learning validation techniques can be helpful. When BPD traits are strong and persistent, however, all the validation in the world won't make a substantial difference in the marriage because you're still married to a person who is unstable, cannot trust you, and has the emotional development of a four year old. Those issues cannot be validated away. As to the book you mention, I have not read it but have read a few reviews. The Site Director of BPDfamily.com (Skip) wrote a brief review of it in 2009 stating the following:



> This is a self published work (not published by an established publisher) of a first time writer with a grassroots handle on how to work with a BPD partner. Bon Dobbs is a ghost name. The author was a member of an Internet support group like ours. I personally think there are several books from well known publishers that I would suggest reading first, such as Loving a Person with Borderline Personality Disorder and the Essential Family Guide by Randi Kreger. You can buy both of these books for the price of "When Hope is Not Enough" (a self publisher has higher costs).
> 
> That said, I think the author "gets it" and makes some good practical points which are illustrated with very real life examples. In one part of the book he walks the reader through how to handle the comments made during an all too familiar phone conversation. The best part of the book, in my opinion, are the 10 tools. [See post #7 in BPDfamily Book Review.]


----------



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

Uptown said:


> Cremetown, as I noted earlier, all of us exhibit the nine BPD traits to some degree. My experience is that, when those traits rise only to a mild or moderate level, learning validation techniques can be helpful. When BPD traits are strong and persistent, however, all the validation in the world won't make a substantial difference in the marriage because you're still married to a person who is unstable, cannot trust you, and has the emotional development of a four year old. Those issues cannot be validated away. As to the book you mention, I have not read it but have read a few reviews. The Site Director of BPDfamily.com (Skip) wrote a brief review of it in 2009 stating the following:


Validation technique in it of itself seems pretty valuable especially if everyone exhibits those bdp traits to a degree, like you say. I don't really know the severity of my ex's traits really, so I don't really know how effective the techs would be on bettering our relationship. I think you stated that these individuals leave a strong impression on their partners after they're gone, the dynamic of extremes highs and extreme lows. When I think about potential reunion my body/mind flips back and forth between anxiety/dread and longing/awe. Maybe that's an indicator that there was some strong characteristics. I just feel like, I didn't know what BDP was back then, so the impression I was getting was she didn't really love me for me, but rather loved me for what I could do for her. That's why I dumped her. It just bums me out that it might be this issue that she can't really help, that I may have misunderstood her completely and she feels misunderstood. What also sucks is that there was shared interests, aspirations and activities and now I have to sorta curb some of those things if I do end up avoiding her all together.


moving on was easier when I thought she was covert NPD which is pretty dumb and arbitrary when comparing potential PDs maybe.


----------



## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Run forest run.

Then run alittle farther.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Why not just set yourself on fire, it would probably be less painful.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

cremetown said:


> It just bums me out that it might be this issue that she can't really help, that I may have misunderstood her completely and she feels misunderstood.


Cremetown, if your Ex really does exhibit strong BPD or NPD symptoms, I would agree that it is not her fault that she acquired that issue in childhood. This does not give her a free pass, however, to abuse you and refuse to control her current behaviors. For her own well being -- as well as for yours -- it is important that she be held fully accountable for her own bad choices and bad behaviors. Otherwise, like a spoiled young kid, she has no incentive to confront her issue and learn how to manage it.

Further, even if it were true that she has a serious issue _"that she can't really help,"_ this should not affect your decision. You are not a judge trying decide whether to have her imprisoned or institutionalized. Rather, you are a man trying to decide whether to pursue her as a potential spouse. As you said, _"The situation I'm in: abandon her or jump back in and risk falling back into the same cycle of care-taking."_ 

At issue, then, is whether you want to marry a woman who is so immature that, as you state, the _"relationship feels like I'm taking care of a child."_ If that statement is accurate, your current decision is whether to return to a parent/child relationship or, instead, pursue a husband/wife relationship with a mature woman. If the former is what you want, you would be far better off finding a young girl to adopt instead of seeking an immature woman to marry.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

She had no contact with you for 7 months. You broke the no contact to ease your conscience. She went two months before getting back to you and simply says she's depressed. 

Who's the needy one, here? Who's analyzing whose personality and starting a thread wherein he hopes to get the green light to get back together with her? All in the guise of 'helping' her.


----------



## cremetown (Jul 13, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> She had no contact with you for 7 months. You broke the no contact to ease your conscience. She went two months before getting back to you and simply says she's depressed.
> 
> Who's the needy one, here? Who's analyzing whose personality and starting a thread wherein he hopes to get the green light to get back together with her? All in the guise of 'helping' her.


Huh? I'd never deny neediness on my end. After our break up I was convinced I was codependent so I sought psychiatric treatment and therapy. The answers I got were...I stop short of codependency since I left when things became unfulfilling. 

The thing about "help" is the exact opposite of what you're thinking. The response could have been anything except for (an explicit or implicit) "help," and I wouldn't even think twice about responding. It's reminiscent of the dynamic that drove me away. That's why I made the thread. To gauge if I'm being overly harsh. It's really surprising to hear her be so candid about any dysfunction tbh especially after not talking for so long, so I'm Inferring it had some utility beyond pure expression. I could be wrong, but if I'm not, I have a good idea of what a chosen RS would entail and again I just want to gauge if I'm being overly-down on the prospect. I've also been finding that dating has just gotten harder and harder for me. 

I would say 5 years ago I was meeting a lot of people dating online, eventually met some of them in person, and all of them were genuinely cool in different ways. That's how I met my ex, but culture and material conditions(mostly it's too expensive for young people so they're all moving) are different now and I'm moving in a trajectory of adapting to the new reality, but it's going to take time and idk if things will change again before I get to that point. 

Sent from my 5046S using Tapatalk


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@cremetown, 

Seriously, man, this is easy. You are "hoping" that she'll see her own issues and change, and you are "what if"-ing something that hasn't even happened yet. So let's play this game to its conclusion. 

WHAT IF she hasn't changed one bit since the two of you broke up, but she said out loud that she is depressed because she's beginning to have an epiphany that she needs help?

YOU ARE NO LONGER WITH HER. 

What if the grocery store lady told you she was depressed. Would you spend hours talking to people on TAM about how the grocery store lady MIGHT be seeing she has a problem, and thinking about how you could "help" the grocery store lady with her depression?

How about the mail delivery woman? How about the teller at the bank? Would you spend all this time defending how reasonable it is for you to be so deeply involved in their mental health and "helping" them? 

OR would you recognize that the grocery store lady, the post-woman, and the teller at the bank are not your responsibility? Would you realize that they have their own lives to live and decisions to make, and if they want to do something to change their own mental health, THEY have to do it? 

Would you spend hours plotting and planning and analyzing one sentence "I'm depressed?" Geez, I don't mean this mean, but I'm depressed reading how codependent you are and I'll bet you money you won't spend HALF the time worrying about my mental health as you did on your ex! 

This is not your circus. 

These are not your monkeys. 

If she is depressed, she is completely able to pick up a yellow pages and look up a therapist, or Google "Counselors in <city>", or ask a friend "Hey who do you recommend for counseling?" She's not doing that. That means SHE DON'T WANT TO GO TO COUNSELING! What she wants is to dangle bait in front of your face and see if you'll bite. She wants to hook you and reel you in! And from what I can see, she's been pretty successful. 

You say you've been to counseling yourself about your co-dependence. Well time to put on the big-boy panties and start applying some of what you supposedly learned.

By the way--if you want to be with her, go be with her! You're an adult--make up your own mind. Don't listen to a bunch of online strangers. If you are bound and determined to do it, you're gonna do it anyway, so go do it! You don't need us. What exactly is the point of asking? Do you need attention? Approval? Seriously, I know I am sounding harsh, but you are a grown man. Make a decision and then be personally responsible for the choice you make.


----------

