# Stages of Grief for the WS?



## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

I know this is a touchy subject so I am trying to tread lightly here, but I want to understand the coping and aftermath from the side of the cheater. So any insight from people who've cheated would be appreciated. No attacks and "you deserve the worst" comments please. 

At first, I didn't feel any guilt, although I did feel a great deal of sadness that the situation had ever happened. Now, I still can't say what I am feeling is guilt, exactly. But there's definitely more of a sense of remorse or just plain pain at the whole thing. Not even my action so much as the whole situation, the whole road that led my and my husband here. So was there a numbness at first, that I was feeling? The sort of thing you go into when you've lost a loved one? Because the truth is, no matter what we choose, life is never going to be the same. I don't want it to be the same, truth be told. Because it wasn't good and something had to give...I am not saying my actions were inevitable, but something had to give.

I don't know what I am feeling from one moment to the next, I am just trying to understand.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I am still truly sorry and remorseful for what I did.
However, my wife and I are closer now than we have ever been, so something really good did come out of something so very bad.
BTW, I lost a daughter a couple of years ago and the pain, grief, and sadness are not even close.
The affair was something that I did.
The death was not within my control.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

I brought this over from your other thread



missinglife said:


> You know, here's a little tidbit for anyone who is watching this thread...
> 
> I WANT to want this, if that makes any sense. I am not the sort of person who is constantly discontent and revels in it, or looks to be dissatisfied. So I WANT to be content in what I have, believe it or not, no matter what my actions say.
> 
> ...


I'm curious as to your husbands reactions to your infidelity.

Was he angry? Did he threaten D? Did he shrug his shoulders and say lets work it out?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I get what you're feeling. For me I would describe it as an overwhelming feeling of disappointment in myself coupled with a complete lack of trust in myself on top of not knowing or understanding who I was. Once the crisis has abated and you're left looking at yourself in the mirror it's hard - it ought to be. When someone comes here posting that they are contemplating cheating one of the things I tell them is that they have no idea of the prices they will pay, that I traded a piece of my soul for my affair that I can never get back. That some days the wound where that piece was aches and bleeds and some days it doesn't but it's always there - and always will be. 

The disappointment turns into simply regret as you forgive yourself. If you do the things necessary to reconcile or at least really figure out why you did what you did trust in yourself returns - mostly. The wound on your soul though - it will scar over and it won't hurt or bleed nearly as much; but, it will never go away and when you hit it the right way it will sting like a son of a b!tch. 

Such is the price of cheating.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

TorontoBoyWest said:


> I brought this over from your other thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the first few days, he was understandably very angry/upset. Still is, of course. He took a few days and went to his sister's up in Maine. But we were talking right from the get go about what it all meant for us.

He knows we got to this place together. That's not to say he is to blame, I know that. But he is as committed to finding out why we got here, why I felt so desperate, as I am. 

He has a lot of hope for us. I am struggling with that. I know it seems weird, tables are turned, it should be me saying we can make it. But I don't know how to trust my own feelings right now, they've been all over the map. 

One thing we are agreed on is that if we stay together, we need to make some major life changes. We are not happy where we live, and we want to downsize our life. We need more of a community and a support network and we need to find more time for each other, away from our kids.

Not that any of that is a panacea for our problems...


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

missinglife said:


> But I don't know how to trust my own feelings right now, they've been all over the map.


You really can't and probably shouldn't trust your feelings right now - they're a complete cluster.

Trust what your head is telling you. Put all your focus and effort into your husband. Talk to him, communicate with him, answer his questions. Working through what you did with him will slowly help you sort out your emotions - to a point. You will eventually reach a point where you will have to turn your efforts and focus inward to totally process the whole thing, but for now focus on him.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

missinglife said:


> For the first few days, he was understandably very angry/upset. Still is, of course. He took a few days and went to his sister's up in Maine. But we were talking right from the get go about what it all meant for us.
> 
> He knows we got to this place together. That's not to say he is to blame, I know that. But he is as committed to finding out why we got here, why I felt so desperate, as I am.
> 
> ...


So there was no threat of D or I'm done or anything of that nature from him?

I'm thinking maybe your feeling a lack of guilt is tied to not seeing any consquences for your actions. 

How would you describe your H? Alpha or beta?

It might be a good idea for him to read http://marriedmansexlife.com/books/primer/ if it is the latter.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

TorontoBoyWest said:


> So there was no threat of D or I'm done or anything of that nature from him?
> 
> I'm thinking maybe your feeling a lack of guilt is tied to not seeing any consquences for your actions.
> 
> ...


Oh no, there was at the beginning a threat of the end of our marriage.

But something shifted and I said as much to him. We discussed this last night. For the first few days, I said I would do anything to keep things together. But then it hit me that doing so won't work. If subjugating all of my own needs and wants to his is the only way to stay married, I can't do it. Yes, yes, I know that sounds incredibly selfish, and I know what people think. But it's not entirely...because if one of us, either of us, is miserable, then we are right back at square one, aren't we? 

So we are agreed that we are in this right now to figure out what makes us happy, be it together or separate. THAT is the journey we are taking together right now. And I am grateful that it is a journey we are taking TOGETHER, no matter the outcome.

And I call "BS" on not seeing the consequences of my actions...I knew them all along, I know them now, I am well aware of them. I perhaps even undertook the affair for that particular outcome, I don't know. That is what I am trying to understand.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

missinglife said:


> Oh no, there was at the beginning a threat of the end of our marriage.
> 
> But something shifted and I said as much to him. We discussed this last night. *For the first few days, I said I would do anything to keep things together. But then it hit me that doing so won't work. If subjugating all of my own needs and wants to his is the only way to stay married, I can't do it. Yes, yes, I know that sounds incredibly selfish, and I know what people think. But it's not entirely...because if one of us, either of us, is miserable, then we are right back at square one, aren't we? *
> 
> ...


No need to call BS, it was just something that I thought of that might resonate with you with regards to your situation. If you thought that your affair wouldnt matter to your marriage, why feel guilty about it?

The problem with what you wrote that i bolded is that your H needs that in order for him to heal from your betrayal. He needs to see your complete commitment to the marriage, your complete transparency, that you are doing all the heavy lifting now. The problems in the marriage are for both of you to work on, no doubt. The affair is entirely on you. You understand how much you hurt him, dealing with that hurt now is one of the most important things you can do.

Almost every thread you will read here follows the same basic theme. Problems in the marriage led to unhappiness led to infidelity. You are correct in that you both need to work together in order figure out were to go from here. The problem you will face is that if your H never is allowed to heal from what you have done, where you will get to if you decide to stick with the marriage probably won't be much better then it is now.

Just my 0.02


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

TorontoBoyWest said:


> No need to call BS, it was just something that I thought of that might resonate with you with regards to your situation. If you thought that your affair wouldnt matter to your marriage, why feel guilty about it?
> 
> The problem with what you wrote that i bolded is that your H needs that in order for him to heal from your betrayal. He needs to see your complete commitment to the marriage, your complete transparency, that you are doing all the heavy lifting now. The problems in the marriage are for both of you to work on, no doubt. The affair is entirely on you. You understand how much you hurt him, dealing with that hurt now is one of the most important things you can do.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of this, except that we are in a point where we don't know if the marriage is salvageable. He is in complete agreement on that score. I'd love to tell him I will do whatever it takes, that I KNOW we will make it work, but I can't right now. I owe him my honesty first and foremost and I can't make that sort of empty promise after all I've done. 

So the tack we are taking (for now, anyway) is that we WANT to try to make this work. But I am not going to blow smoke up his @$$, if you will, and tell him things that aren't true, that I know we are meant to be together and such. I've done enough of that, and it's sort of a relief not to anymore, you know? 

And it's funny...but he's finding it easier to trust me and believe me because I am not just prostrating myself at his feet and saying I will do whatever it takes, because I am being utterly honest about not truly knowing what the outcome will be. Because he knows what is coming out of my mouth is real. That's complete transparency, I think. At least in our case. I can't speak for anyone else's, really.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

missinglife said:


> I agree with most of this, except that we are in a point where we don't know if the marriage is salvageable. He is in complete agreement on that score. I'd love to tell him I will do whatever it takes, that I KNOW we will make it work, but I can't right now. I owe him my honesty first and foremost and I can't make that sort of empty promise after all I've done.
> 
> So the tack we are taking (for now, anyway) is that we WANT to try to make this work. But I am not going to blow smoke up his @$$, if you will, and tell him things that aren't true, that I know we are meant to be together and such. I've done enough of that, and it's sort of a relief not to anymore, you know?
> 
> And it's funny...but he's finding it easier to trust me and believe me because I am not just prostrating myself at his feet and saying I will do whatever it takes, because I am being utterly honest about not truly knowing what the outcome will be. Because he knows what is coming out of my mouth is real. That's complete transparency, I think. At least in our case. I can't speak for anyone else's, really.


Hey the one thing I have realized is that there is no one way to do this. We are all different and there isn't a cookie-cutter way to deal with things, as easy as it would be to just follow a formula. I would say to you tho that his hurt at what you have done cannot be rug-swept. Don't let him or put him in a position where he carries that pain as a sacrifice for trying to save the marriage.

How did your affair start? How long did it last? Was it with someone you knew or just met?


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

TorontoBoyWest said:


> Hey the one thing I have realized is that there is no one way to do this. We are all different and there isn't a cookie-cutter way to deal with things, as easy as it would be to just follow a formula. I would say to you tho that his hurt at what you have done cannot be rug-swept. Don't let him or put him in a position where he carries that pain as a sacrifice for trying to save the marriage.
> 
> How did your affair start? How long did it last? Was it with someone you knew or just met?


No, I agree. No rug-sweeping and I am encouraging him to talk. And I am eager for us to talk in front of a counselor...two weeks away!

I sought out an affair on an affair site. Yup, it was that calculated. Because I didn't want an emotional attachment with anyone, I just wanted an affair.

Actually, it really all started as the slippery slope. Curiosity, some chatting, thinking I would never really go through with it, decided to meet up with one person (who was, truly, a very nice person), met for coffee several times. Spent one night together, both of us freaked, never did it again. I've never even seen him again.

But I still went to the site sometimes, and it was on my browser because apparently me am stoopid and I didn't know how to even find my browser history


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## skip76 (Aug 30, 2011)

missinglife said:


> For the first few days, he was understandably very angry/upset. Still is, of course. He took a few days and went to his sister's up in Maine. But we were talking right from the get go about what it all meant for us.
> 
> He knows we got to this place together. That's not to say he is to blame, I know that. But he is as committed to finding out why we got here, why I felt so desperate, as I am.
> 
> ...



this is not about downsizing, this is about you. you need to figure out why you did this. That is on you. Add time to the equation and everything changes, a couple years of downsizing and you will want to keep up with the joneses again. Anything can be spun around and used as excuses. A husband that works hard to provide for his family is never around while a guy with free time is a freeloader. No matter what there will be more ruts, what will you do when you get in the next rut? I think we could help from your husbands side more so than yours so send him over here.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

missinglife said:


> No, I agree. No rug-sweeping and I am encouraging him to talk. And I am eager for us to talk in front of a counselor...two weeks away!
> 
> I sought out an affair on an affair site. Yup, it was that calculated. Because I didn't want an emotional attachment with anyone, I just wanted an affair.
> 
> ...


Not to be a jerk here but isn't it amazing when you communicate how things change?  (sorry I had to say it. Was my first thought as you opened up. I'm too sarcastic at times for my own good)

From your first posts I saw a cold, selfish [email protected] who was running on her family.

As you have opened up things have cleared up. I see a different person now. 

Yes you are troubled with what is going on in your life, but I see someone who does care, who does have love for her H. I get the feeling (just my gut from what you have wrote, nothing else) that you have more love for your H and family then you are willing to admit. And you have said you love them.(Maybe scared to admit?) Whether that has any impact on your marriage remains to be seen but I do think that if you put in the effort you will be rewarded with what you want. And that is all just speculation on my part. Could be way off base.

I have to be honest, the affair was feeble  All the deception for that! Some payoff huh?

Read some other threads on what WS have done. I think that might enlighten you on what you did and what it meant.

You have mentioned that you won't cheat again on H, that you will leave before that happens. Do you think there is a reason that you kept the affair site on your browser?

And do you want to see AP again? You do paint him in glowing terms TBH. Why do you think both of you freaked?


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## skip76 (Aug 30, 2011)

missinglife said:


> Oh no, there was at the beginning a threat of the end of our marriage.
> 
> But something shifted and I said as much to him. We discussed this last night. For the first few days, I said I would do anything to keep things together. But then it hit me that doing so won't work. If subjugating all of my own needs and wants to his is the only way to stay married, I can't do it. Yes, yes, I know that sounds incredibly selfish, and I know what people think. But it's not entirely...because if one of us, either of us, is miserable, then we are right back at square one, aren't we?
> 
> ...


i disagree with you, you got issues. it is normal human compassion to feel for someone in pain. Now throw on that this person is your husband and you caused his pain. You should be WANTING to give up your needs for the time being and focus on fixing him up. You seem to lack that compassion so please let him go so he can a woman with feelings. He will eventually get over you and that is exactly the moment you will want to put in the work but it will be too late. Once he starts comparing the crap he is dealing with to the noncrap available to him out there you are in trouble. I call BS on your judment being clear enough to know what id BS.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

TorontoBoyWest said:


> Not to be a jerk here but isn't it amazing when you communicate how things change?  (sorry I had to say it. Was my first thought as you opened up. I'm too sarcastic at times for my own good)
> 
> From your first posts I saw a cold, selfish [email protected] who was running on her family.
> 
> ...


My first post was never meant to be so cold, I was just trying to express what I was feeling at that very moment, the unhappiness, the desire to just be alone. It WAS honest, really, in its way. Just as these posts are honest. This is sort of why I think there may be "stages of grief" for the cheater as well as the cheated. 

Nope, no desire to see AP (I know that means the man I slept with but I honestly don't know what the acronym is). Can't really fathom the whole thing, but I didn't want to see him again afterwards and it's clear he didn't either. We emailed a bit afterwards but it just sort of...fizzled. 

I know I love my family. I am not scared to admit that, in fact it's scarier to say how much they drive me nuts and I want to run away. Because that's what society thinks is "bad", that I must be a crappy mum because I feel that way. I won't ever abandon them, but sometimes I'd like to just take to the mountains and hide.

But the ugly truth of it is that although I do love my husband, I am not sure it's enough for us. Maybe I don't love him the way he deserves to be loved? That is the ugly truth that I am now facing head on. 

As for the browser, I think I really was just a numbnuts. But I don't discount the possibility that I wanted to get caught so I would have to face things head on.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

skip76 said:


> i disagree with you, you got issues. it is normal human compassion to feel for someone in pain. Now throw on that this person is your husband and you caused his pain. You should be WANTING to give up your needs for the time being and focus on fixing him up. You seem to lack that compassion so please let him go so he can a woman with feelings. He will eventually get over you and that is exactly the moment you will want to put in the work but it will be too late. Once he starts comparing the crap he is dealing with to the noncrap available to him out there you are in trouble. I call BS on your judment being clear enough to know what id BS.


Well, we will just have to disagree then.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

missinglife said:


> My first post was never meant to be so cold, I was just trying to express what I was feeling at that very moment, the unhappiness, the desire to just be alone. It WAS honest, really, in its way. Just as these posts are honest. This is sort of why I think there may be "stages of grief" for the cheater as well as the cheated.
> 
> Nope, no desire to see AP (I know that means the man I slept with but I honestly don't know what the acronym is). Can't really fathom the whole thing, but I didn't want to see him again afterwards and it's clear he didn't either. We emailed a bit afterwards but it just sort of...fizzled.
> 
> ...


AP = Affair Partner

I love you but i'm not in love with you? Could that be it?

Why did you freak out after the deed was done?

Im just curious, I know you said it was clear that neither of you wanted to see each other again, so why email a few more times after? Did you want to see him again but find it hard to admit that? Or did you regret it once fantasy became reality?

Your therapy session can not come soon enough IMO. TBH you would benefit from IC as well. (that is not to say that you are some crazy wackjob  It is to say that I think there are alot of truths that once uncovered in your life will make alot of this clear for you. Even the little I see from your posts, like your parents divorce and how it has affected your perceptions)


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

missinglife said:


> I know I love my family. I am not scared to admit that, in fact it's scarier to say how much they drive me nuts and I want to run away.


You sound like my ex-wife. She told me once that sometimes she just wanted to run away. At the time, I thought it was just a phase that she was going through. Now I realize that she was not happy with the 'ideal' life that she was living.

She abandoned me and the kids and is now living the single carefree life that she envisioned. Of course, we all would like to run away from the daily grind of life sometimes. In her case, she selfishly chose to do so -- even though I was willing to reconcile with her.

You come across as someone who is very self-centered and wants her happiness at everyone else expense. Heck your screen name says it all: 'Missing Life'. It appears that you are longing for something better -- greener pastures so to speak.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

TorontoBoyWest said:


> AP = Affair Partner
> 
> I love you but i'm not in love with you? Could that be it?
> 
> ...


At this point, you are the only person I appear to be having a meaningful dialogue with this on, so I am just going to answer you.

I love you but i'm not in love with you? Could that be it?

Maybe. I honestly do. not. know.

Freak out perhaps isn't the best term - I didn't panic or have a meltdown or anything. I don't quite know how to describe it, but it was just an ugly gut feeling. 

Why did we still email? Because we said we'd see each other again. Then we both "got busy", emailing less over the next week and I let it fizzle. I wanted it to fizzle.

Or did you regret it once fantasy became reality?

Probably.

I agree on the IC. But first we want to find someone to meet us together, then we will discuss IC with her.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

missinglife said:


> At this point, you are the only person I appear to be having a meaningful dialogue with this on, so I am just going to answer you.
> 
> I love you but i'm not in love with you? Could that be it?
> 
> ...


I have my thoughts on what this all is, why it all came about and why you did what you did. At the end of the day though they are my thoughts. I will share them with you if you want but TBH you have to remember that I am only seeing your side and its a very partial POV at best.

I do see in you someone who really does want the answers to their questions, and if one of my wacky questions strikes a cord with you and helps you then I've done my job, right?

I will admit too you freely that I do not like the fact that you chose to cheat on your H as a coping mechanism for the issues with your marriage. Having said that, you sharing how you went about it struck me.

If I remember right you have been married 10+ years, right?

When do you feel the unhappiness start to creep into your situation. Was it before the unplanned pregnancy and his resentment or after?

What were the dynamics of you deciding to go outside the marriage? I will assume you did not wake up on a tuesday morning and decide you were going to cheat Friday nite?

As long as it's not TMI for you, what happened the nite you met AP? What did you say to your H about where you were going?


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

missinglife said:


> No, I agree. No rug-sweeping and I am encouraging him to talk. And I am eager for us to talk in front of a counselor...two weeks away!
> 
> I sought out an affair on an affair site. Yup, it was that calculated. Because I didn't want an emotional attachment with anyone, I just wanted an affair.
> 
> ...


"very nice" people don't cheat with someone else's spouse. It just isn't a "nice " thing to do, anymore than robbing a bank would be, ( actually that might be a little better, less hurtful overall). I do find you to be quite cold. If ever there is a time for feeling guilty, it is after causing another person this much pain. There was always an honest way to confront your problems with your spouse. This was not honest, or necessary.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

oaksthorne said:


> "very nice" people don't cheat with someone else's spouse. It just isn't a "nice " thing to do, anymore than robbing a bank would be, ( actually that might be a little better, less hurtful overall). I do find you to be quite cold. If ever there is a time for feeling guilty, it is after causing another person this much pain. There was always an honest way to confront your problems with your spouse. This was not honest, or necessary.


That's fine, that's your opinion. But very nice people can also be misguided, and can act in not very nice ways. I see it all the time, in all aspects of society.

I don't actually care if you find me cold. I am here for answers, just like anyone else. I am bewildered by my own feelings, and wondering if there is something akin to the stages of grief for people on my side of the fence. I am after getting to the heart of the matter, that is all. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be posting here. What flippin' good would it do me?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

missinglife said:


> Oh no, there was at the beginning a threat of the end of our marriage.
> 
> But something shifted and I said as much to him. We discussed this last night. For the first few days, I said I would do anything to keep things together. But then it hit me that doing so won't work. If subjugating all of my own needs and wants to his is the only way to stay married, I can't do it. Yes, yes, I know that sounds incredibly selfish, and I know what people think. But it's not entirely...because if one of us, either of us, is miserable, then we are right back at square one, aren't we?
> 
> ...


As a BS I experienced pain like I have never known possible when I felt the betrayal of infidelity, and I know I relate to other BS on here in the intensity and magnitude of that pain. And from what you have written about your H you don't sense that kind of pain from him - this means either he has not revealed it to you (ie you are not sensitive to what he is going through) or else he has no pain (maybe he is not really vested in the marriage after all, in which case perhaps divorcing really is the best option).

One thing that strikes me as a little possibly naive is how you feel you and your H are going through this together right now, but if you can't sense or understand what he is going through right now I guarantee you are not together... and also maybe you are not grasping what the consequence of separation means, but its the opposite of togetherness. I think that is the reason there is a lot of doubt that you are willing to accept the consequences, because they haven't even really begun yet - not for you, but inside your H is a world of hurt that is spinning out of control and until you start to feel that, and it triggers the remorse and guilt necessary for R to happen, things are going to get a lot worse for you as a result of your choice.

Sorry you are here, you do seem sincere and genuine, and I hope that your H is able to decided what he wants and is able to work towards it, and if that means saving the marriage I hope you are willing to commit to that or else let him down gently.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

TorontoBoyWest said:


> I have my thoughts on what this all is, why it all came about and why you did what you did. At the end of the day though they are my thoughts. I will share them with you if you want but TBH you have to remember that I am only seeing your side and its a very partial POV at best.
> 
> I do see in you someone who really does want the answers to their questions, and if one of my wacky questions strikes a cord with you and helps you then I've done my job, right?
> 
> ...


Your questions haven't been wacky at all. And all of this is one-sided, I know that. As much as we try to see anyone else's POV, we can only look through our own eyes in the end.

I've been married for 10+ years, with my husband for 15. 

I think true unhappiness grew slowly after the birth of my daughter. She was a great little baby, but some issues started to show up at about 10 months...intense separation anxiety, some random freaking out, and she started to make life really hard on us. It's hard to pinpoint, though, because of course life with three young kids, no matter how good they are, is tough. And there was always the undercurrent of "well, you chose to have her, suck it up", even when she was being good. But I just started to hate my life a lot. 

I did things to try to mitigate my feelings of being trapped and lonely. I poured my heart and soul into what has become a relatively successful food blog. My husband resented that as well, actually. He has said that he feels that writing (because I focus on the writing as well as the food) is a "self-indulgent" pursuit. We had a pretty big blow out when he said that, actually, because it hit me that he'd never been all that supportive of any sort of hobby or endeavour I've taken up. I pointed that out to him and after some thought, he completely agreed. But it's never quite taken the pressure off, when it comes to my blog and my writing, where I sort of feel like I have to hide it from him, lest he think it's getting in the way of things he thinks I should be doing instead.

Wow...where the H*** did that bit come from? Hidden resentments...

I did think about having an affair long before I did it. That's probably a really long story. But it's definitely not one of those "it just happened" cases. I think the sex part of our relationship has been ho-hum for years (despite real efforts on both our parts).

As for the actual night itself, an opportunity presented itself. I had plans with a girlfriend, one my husband doesn't know all that well, and she cancelled. The AP was in a week-long conference at a hotel a few towns over (even though he lives in the area, it was a retreat of sorts). So he had a hotel room and I ended up being free for the evening...


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

Lon said:


> As a BS I experienced pain like I have never known possible when I felt the betrayal of infidelity, and I know I relate to other BS on here in the intensity and magnitude of that pain. And from what you have written about your H you don't sense that kind of pain from him - this means either he has not revealed it to you (ie you are not sensitive to what he is going through) or else he has no pain (maybe he is not really vested in the marriage after all, in which case perhaps divorcing really is the best option).
> 
> One thing that strikes me as a little possibly naive is how you feel you and your H are going through this together right now, but if you can't sense or understand what he is going through right now I guarantee you are not together... and also maybe you are not grasping what the consequence of separation means, but its the opposite of togetherness. I think that is the reason there is a lot of doubt that you are willing to accept the consequences, because they haven't even really begun yet - not for you, but inside your H is a world of hurt that is spinning out of control and until you start to feel that, and it triggers the remorse and guilt necessary for R to happen, things are going to get a lot worse for you as a result of your choice.
> 
> Sorry you are here, you do seem sincere and genuine, and I hope that your H is able to decided what he wants and is able to work towards it, and if that means saving the marriage I hope you are willing to commit to that or else let him down gently.


Yes, okay, I see what you are saying in all of this. I think perhaps it's both so raw and new for each of us, we can't really feel what the other is feeling.

But we are trying to go through it together and I think that's good. We've been in constant contact since it happened, texting, emailing, phone calls, just constantly checking in. We're trying, at least...


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

missinglife said:


> Yes, okay, I see what you are saying in all of this. I think perhaps it's both so raw and new for each of us, we can't really feel what the other is feeling.
> 
> But we are trying to go through it together and I think that's good. We've been in constant contact since it happened, texting, emailing, phone calls, just constantly checking in. We're trying, at least...


Can you clarify the precise timeline of the affair. For some reason I thought it happened longer ago, but then other posts make it sound like it was super recent.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Can you clarify the precise timeline of the affair. For some reason I thought it happened longer ago, but then other posts make it sound like it was super recent.


Really recent. 

January: started exploring an affair site. 

February: met AP for coffee several times

March: met for an evening together

April: kept going back to the site, for whatever confused reason

Last week: husband found link on browser


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

missinglife said:


> Really recent.
> 
> January: started exploring an affair site.
> 
> ...


Well, I am throwing you a bone. And honestly I don't know why I'm drawn to your thread because I'm pretty much nodding my head at the posts that you disagree with.

Perhaps you are in a state of shock or withdrawal from your actions. Guilt isn't always a sensation that happens immediately, especially with actions as--I know you hate this word--coldly premeditated as yours.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

oaksthorne said:


> I am neither surprised or concerned that you don't care what I think. It seems that the answers that you are looking for must agree with what you already think, and be narrowly channeled to fit what you are looking for. You are concerned with your stages of grief, but your H's, not so much. Please realize that your grief is waaaaay down there on the scale when compared to his. This is the point that you seem to be missing. Add to that, the fact that you always and still do know the whats, whens and whys. He is not only grief stricken, but shocked; confused and unsure of his own worth and judgement. There is no "side of the fence" if you really do want to save a marriage. He is the one who is destroyed, not you. You got an ego boost and a feeling of power and of being in control. You have gotten your goodies. It's time for you to stop being selfish or move on. You seem to be here, like so many other cheater fws to be told that you are some how a victim and that you need your wounds bound up. Might I suggest another forum if that is really all you want?


I am finding some really good, solid questions, probing questions, from other people. I will continue to respond to them because they are making me think, making me question what I did and why. If we don't find that out, we stand no chance. So I will stay in this forum because that is something of worth.

You have made an assumption about how I feel about my husband's state that is incorrect. You have made assumptions about my own feelings that are incorrect.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

sorry, one more question popped into my head.

In your other post you said you had an affair and were thinking about having another one.

What did that mean, exactly?

did you really mean you were going to get together with the OM again?

Or did you mean, you were just about to find a new affair partner when your husband foud out?


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

we cross-posted, I had another post also at the bottom of the previous page you may have missed.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Well, I am throwing you a bone. And honestly I don't know why I'm drawn to your thread because I'm pretty much nodding my head at the posts that you disagree with.
> 
> Perhaps you are in a state of shock or withdrawal from your actions. Guilt isn't always a sensation that happens immediately, especially with actions as--I know you hate this word--coldly premeditated as yours.


That's what I am thinking. Or wondering, anyway.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> sorry, one more question popped into my head.
> 
> In your other post you said you had an affair and were thinking about having another one.
> 
> ...


I meant I kept going back to the site...wondering if I wanted to, wondering if it was worth it, wondering why I bothered, wondering if it was really simply about attention.

I'd hidden my profile for several weeks after my night with AP. I thought I was done with it. But I felt I couldn't resist peeking in once in a while.

I think it's possible that if I'd made a connection again with someone, I might have done it again.

But then again, I was also in a place where work was picking up, I was super busy and feeling good about that and I knew it was doing more to make me feel good than going to the site did.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> we cross-posted, I had another post also at the bottom of the previous page you may have missed.


Did I get the right one? I think I did.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

missinglife said:


> Did I get the right one? I think I did.


yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

My wife used the affair she had as reasoning to believe she was no longer in love with me and that a divorce was necessary.
I did not file on her, but she filed on me. I was left in a state of shock that it had come to that, and that divorce was what she ultimately wanted. Never mind the distractions of 3 other men in contact with her regularly. 
My life hurts now, even nine months after the divorce, having moved into my own house, and am getting a routine of my own life together. But my heart still aches, but I cant really pinpoint from what. 
I never saw remorse from my wife.
In the middle of trying to work things out at first, we were at a party and I caught her in the bathroom with another man.

Yesterday I got a box full of pictures from the wedding ten years ago, and love letters I had written her and she had kept.
She presently is cleaning her bedroom out, (hence the take home box), because her moved in lover is coming back this weekend for the weekend. 
I want to drive my car off of a bridge and end the sadness.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

ML, almost all your threads speak about needing time alone by yourself or with you and the husband.

Everything points to the kids as being the root of your problems. Everything is for the kids, no time for you.

Have you seen a doctor to see if you're suffering from stress after your pregnancy? Depression resulting from not getting it diagnosed?

I know you love your kids but you keep going back to, me, me, me, me, me. Losing myself, everything was being a mom/wife what about me, etc... Do you see the pattern?

And the only stages of grief is I stay and work on the marriage 100% or I leave the marriage. If you're gonna stay and [email protected] your way for the next couple of months might as well just go, you're just gonna prolong the pain and agony for your husband.

But I have to at least try for my family. Trying is going full bore 100%, not 50% and hope the other 50% comes will eventually come back.

Maybe leaving to find yourself might even lead you back to your family. Probably not as a wife to your husband but as a better person to him and a better mom to your kids.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

Shooboomafoo said:


> My wife used the affair she had as reasoning to believe she was no longer in love with me and that a divorce was necessary.
> I did not file on her, but she filed on me. I was left in a state of shock that it had come to that, and that divorce was what she ultimately wanted. Never mind the distractions of 3 other men in contact with her regularly.
> My life hurts now, even nine months after the divorce, having moved into my own house, and am getting a routine of my own life together. But my heart still aches, but I cant really pinpoint from what.
> I never saw remorse from my wife.
> ...


I'm sorry. I truly am.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Shooboomafoo said:


> My wife used the affair she had as reasoning to believe she was no longer in love with me and that a divorce was necessary.
> I did not file on her, but she filed on me. I was left in a state of shock that it had come to that, and that divorce was what she ultimately wanted. Never mind the distractions of 3 other men in contact with her regularly.
> My life hurts now, even nine months after the divorce, having moved into my own house, and am getting a routine of my own life together. But my heart still aches, but I cant really pinpoint from what.
> I never saw remorse from my wife.
> ...


Shooboomafoo, I hurt just reading your post because it reminded me of my situation. Thankfully, I never caught her with anyone but I think back to all the GNOs where she came home at 2:00 AM in the morning. Or the unanswered calls when I wanted to make sure that she was ok.

I also think about the fact that she never gave me the chance to save our marriage. She unilaterally decided that she no longer wanted to be married to me. My divorce was final last Friday and I've been experiencing some of the same feelings that I had after dday. 

But I know that all this is part of a process and things will get better. With this in mind, keep your car on the road.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

cheatinghubby said:


> ML, almost all your threads speak about needing time alone by yourself or with you and the husband.
> 
> Everything points to the kids as being the root of your problems. Everything is for the kids, no time for you.
> 
> ...


Do you see the pattern? Heck yeah. Saw the pattern a long time ago, but somehow that didn't stop me. 

But I have to at least try for my family.

This is exactly what I think. Really, it is. But I think I trust myself so little right now, I trust very little each feeling as it comes because I don't know what to think or feel.

What I am, what I can tell him right now, is that I am 100% committed to TRYING. And I am.

Maybe leaving to find yourself might even lead you back to your family. Probably not as a wife to your husband but as a better person to him and a better mom to your kids.

Agreed.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't wish to bash you but I do feel you need to listen to what I have to say here-


there is a fundamental difference between the WS who has poor boundaries and gets involved in an affair (as they weren't initially seeking to have one necessarily but rather poorly took an opportunity that presented itself) and a WS like you, one who intentionally sought one out and took measures to do as such (like sign up for ashlee mahdison) 

to me this tells me you felt justified in seeking out an affair before even getting the rush of the affair dopamines. (one who falls into an affair will usually justify their actions at the same time they make the decision to cheat.)

as a result I think that you will ultimately have a harder time coming to terms with your bad decisions. No one likes to think of themselves as flawed as this and as such you will have great difficultly seeing your affair, your husband and your marriage for what they really are.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

missinglife said:


> Yes, okay, I see what you are saying in all of this. I think perhaps it's both so raw and new for each of us, we can't really feel what the other is feeling.
> 
> But we are trying to go through it together and I think that's good. We've been in constant contact since it happened, texting, emailing, phone calls, just constantly checking in. We're trying, at least...


It's raw and new to your H, but for you it was a deliberate and conscious choice, so I think it is really unfair for you to be constantly talking "us" or to equate what you are going through with what he is.

The reason you can't feel what each other is feeling because you made a unilateral choice to place an almost immovable object between you (yes, your affair which is ALL on you) maybe the other things that were happening in the breakdown in your relationship put some distance in there too, but those are the "together" things you are talking about - after infidelity those all sort of become moot because the old marriage is literally dead.

I suspect the only reason your still feel connected is because your H is doing a hard plan 'A' knowing that if he stumbles he's lost you forever. However it is also a very succesful first step when the goal is rugsweeping - Until you both realize that right now you are worlds apart, and have no place saying you are in it together you can't ever truly reconcile. Not until he breaks down, and you can feel his pain and wish to take it up can you begin the healing process, and without a lot of heavy lifting from you to restore the shattered trust will you ever get past this - and personally I can't see any motivation for you to in your threads, why do you even want to go to all that hard work to renew a marriage to this man - you plainly have rejected him as a H, you got what you tried for, to kill the marriage, you are about to watch it start flail and your choice, now that you have claimed it, is regret or mercy


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I don't wish to bash you but I do feel you need to listen to what I have to say here-
> 
> 
> there is a fundamental difference between the WS who has poor boundaries and gets involved in an affair (as they weren't initially seeking to have one necessarily but rather poorly took an opportunity that presented itself) and a WS like you, one who intentionally sought one out and took measures to do as such (like sign up for ashlee mahdison)
> ...


That didn't strike me as bashing at all...


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

Lon said:


> It's raw and new to your H, but for you it was a deliberate and conscious choice, so I think it is really unfair for you to be constantly talking "us" or to equate what you are going through with what he is.
> 
> The reason you can't feel what each other is feeling because you made a unilateral choice to place an almost immovable object between you (yes, your affair which is ALL on you) maybe the other things that were happening in the breakdown in your relationship put some distance in there too, but those are the "together" things you are talking about - after infidelity those all sort of become moot because the old marriage is literally dead.
> 
> I suspect the only reason your still feel connected is because your H is doing a hard plan 'A' knowing that if he stumbles he's lost you forever. However it is also a very succesful first step when the goal is rugsweeping - Until you both realize that right now you are worlds apart, and have no place saying you are in it together you can't ever truly reconcile. Not until he breaks down, and you can feel his pain and wish to take it up can you begin the healing process, and without a lot of heavy lifting from you to restore the shattered trust will you ever get past this - and personally I can't see any motivation for you to in your threads, why do you even want to go to all that hard work to renew a marriage to this man - you plainly have rejected him as a H, you got what you tried for, to kill the marriage, you are about to watch it start flail and your choice, now that you have claimed it, is regret or mercy


Okay...I am trying to take this all in...

But I, in fact, do see motivation in my posts. Or at least I mean it to be there. But I do have my own doubts right now, yes. And I have to express them, at least here, right? I mean, I have to express what I am feeling so I can get at it, dig into it, etc. So I am being honest here, and opening myself (willingly) to all of this so I can truly try to understand...


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

missinglife said:


> Okay...I am trying to take this all in...
> 
> But I, in fact, do see motivation in my posts. Or at least I mean it to be there. But I do have my own doubts right now, yes. And I have to express them, at least here, right? I mean, I have to express what I am feeling so I can get at it, dig into it, etc. So I am being honest here, and opening myself (willingly) to all of this so I can truly try to understand...


I see motivation in your posts for your answer to resolve, that is different than the motivation that should happen after you find your resolve. And yes please express away - even though your thoughts may be met with hostility, it is actually a safe place for that to happen here, and it is very educational and revealing for all those who choose to follow this thread.

Just at some point you have to stop awaiting for the answer to come to you and simply make your decision, the fact is you probably won't ever come to understand much at all - I know I haven't despite all the time I've spent here, and introspecting - I just will never understand why my ex chose to cheat, nor will I ever understand how she felts before during or after her affairs, but we have to continue living, not much happens in limbo and that is where you are right now. Your H is in his own limbo right now too. When you both come out of your separate limbos there is a very real chance you will not come out together, I am just sending you the warning to help you start seeing the consequences.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

missinglife~

You have said a few things that I have found intriguing and a bit encouraging, but before I begin my comments let me start by introducing myself. I am a former disloyal spouse myself, and I was also previously a loyal spouse who ended up divorced when my ex would not end his A. So I have sadly experienced both sides. I'm pleased to see that you are thinking and asking questions--even questioning yourself a bit--to try to get to the bottom of this, and I do hope you'll for the most part ignore those who are disparaging or unhelpful. It can be REALLY hard and hurtful for a loyal spouse to see some of the honest questions we disloyals have, and often rather than appreciating the honest searching, the response is a reply from their own personal pain. So this is just me--I just don't worry about those kinds of replies, and if they persist in bugging me, I put them on "Ignore" and don't even see what they say! 

I realize that to many loyal spouses it may seem ridiculous to "appreciate the honesty" of these questions, but the truth of the matter is that while a loyal has things that THEY wrestle with...these are the kinds of things that a disloyal spouse wrestles with. So many disloyals are treated as if they need to think they are defective or feel like dirt on the bottom of a worm's shoe, and whilst I do believe that genuine regret is necessary for recovery, I don't think that disparaging really helps recovery at all. The main thing I see that can really help a disloyal recover is recognizing that there were a few pretty fundamental perceptions that are incorrect. Having a viewpoint that's skewed throws things off...and thus, by making a few fundamental changes, it can make a huge difference. But how can you make those foundational changes if you don't ASK and Question Yourself...and thereby, learn!? 

Anyway...here are the two quotes that caught my eye. 



> At first, I didn't feel any guilt, although I did feel a great deal of sadness that the situation had ever happened. Now, I still can't say what I am feeling is guilt, exactly. But there's definitely more of a sense of remorse or just plain pain at the whole thing. Not even my action so much as the whole situation, the whole road that led my and my husband here. So was there a numbness at first, that I was feeling? The sort of thing you go into when you've lost a loved one? *Because the truth is, no matter what we choose, life is never going to be the same. I don't want it to be the same, truth be told. Because it wasn't good and something had to give...I am not saying my actions were inevitable, but something had to give.*


I don't know how long you've been trying to work things through with your H, but it doesn't surprise me that you feel sort of numb. It sounds like you were hurting for a long time and I think at some point we do reach a limit to the pain we can feel and our heart sort of "goes numb"...and that's not to say that we won't feel extreme pain. It's more like an endurance thing. In an effort to cope, we either get calloused, or we numb out emotionally a bit. And I can most definitely remember in my recovery some times when I "didn't feel it" and it did feel a little bit like going through the motions with no real "fire" behind it. 

One thing I see that sounds hopeful to me is that you don't want things to be "like they were." Many loyal spouses really do hold onto that for a long time: "I just want things to be like they were!" because on the loyal side, it seems like they were happily married one day and then all-of-a-sudden BOOM it was all destroyed! Now naturally as a loyal you're aware that things were not all rainbows and roses, but at most they thought it was lazy/neglectful and maybe fighty....not something that would end the marriage! From our point of view though, the disloyal side, it seemed more like "I can not take this any longer--I've tried and tried and tried to let you know I can not take this and it's hurting me--I've lit myself on fire to try to get your attention to notice how much this is hurting me--and you still don't care. So I'm closing now, and if it hurts you well too bad you've hurt me for YEARS!" 

Now in reality this is at least a portion of disloyal fog (I'm sure you've heard of that) but it is at least also a portion of truth. And to a disloyal, we do not want it to go back "the way it was" because "the way it was" was killing us!! However, you said yourself that one thing you two have agreed to, is that life will never be the same. That's true! But you two can each choose to make a whole new healthy, mature, loving, intimate relationship. You two can each choose to look at yourself and address the things that YOU need to change, and by doing so, practice newer, healthier ways of being open and being close emotionally, physically, mentally, and even spiritually. Many times one or the other is afraid to really LOOK at themselves and ask, "What flaw do I see? Do I keep score? Do I attack? Do I make our home unsafe for my spouse? Do I see them equal to me in being able to have preferences and different ways of doing things, or is everything 'my way or the highway'? Do we do things mutually or does one of us try to get power over the other?" See what I mean? Those kinds of questions are FOUNDATIONAL, yet if you're afraid to look at yourself and maybe realize "Darn I have not taken the risk to open up emotionally to my spouse, so s/he had no way of knowing XYZ" then you can't change! And if you can't change, it will stay the same! 

Soooo...the fact that you're questioning your own self and the fact that you've already embraced it will "not be the same" is actually really good! 

You wrote: 


> I don't know what I am feeling from one moment to the next, I am just trying to understand.


Well I'll be blunt. Making life choices based on your emotions or "how you're feeling" is generally not a wise choice, and here's why. The way that you feel can literally change from moment to moment and it can be influenced by almost anything. Speaking as a female of the species, my feeling can change based on the time of the month/hormones, weather, what I eat, how I slept (or lack thereof), and choices I make. So if I make a bunch of grouchy choices, don't sleep well, eat nothing but candy, it's about to rain, and it's the day before the monthly visitor...well you tell me how I'm likely to feel! CRANKY right? And if I make life decisions based on how I feel, I'd make decisions based on crankiness that might be gone the next day! No making decisions based on feelings is usually a recipe for disaster. 

I personally suggest that rather than basing your life decisions on "I feel unhappy" or "I feel trapped" etc. that you recognize that emotions are a little bit like waves on the ocean: they ebb and flow, rise and fall, and are very fluid. You may feel trapped now, a few things change, and then you don't feel trapped. You may feel unhappy now, and then a pint of Hagen Daz and some flowers or a thoughtful gift later, and you feel happier. The thing is that feelings can very much be what you CHOOSE them to be. 

Let me give you an example. Here is a fact "Your spouse earns $2000 per month for a living." One person who has that spouse could choose to be ENTIRELY UNHAPPY with that amount because they are used to a lifestyle that requires $5k per month, and this doesn't even cover bills, so they have to work full time too and they resent the HECK out of it and inside they are seething How do they "feel"? Angry? Trapped? Hurt? Upset? Yep! But another person who has that spouse could choose to be ENTIRELY THRILLED with that amount because they earn that much themselves and they have a simple life and it's just the two of them and their spouse has an illness that makes work difficult but they've found a great position. How do they "feel"? Thankful? Appreciative? Happy? Yep! 

So one thing I actually practiced A LOT and kind of got used to was learning that it's not up to other people to "make me happy" and that I had to decide that for myself. Thus, I had to learn how to think differently about things. Sometimes it was easy to change my thoughts, like about my own Dear Hubby. I used to be very hurt that given the choice between a night with me or a night with "XYZ recreation" he would choose the recreation, and now I join him in the recreation and he has taught me all about it! Guess what? He sees that as being interested in him! And I see it as he wants to spend time with me and share an experience. Likewise I can choose to keep thinking over and over about how unhappy I am that he doesn't send me love notes on facebook....or I can choose to ASK for what I need or choose to be grateful for the lilacs he brought in the house. My point is that if I feel unhappy and I constantly think variations of "I'm unhappy" then HELLO! Guess what? I'll be unhappy! OR I can feel unhappy--identify why--and then either ask for what I need or choose to change my point of view (aka look for a positive side or think "Well I do like this and this and this. I enjoy that. And oh that felt good..." and guess what? I'll be happy. It's not all "choice" but moreso changing the WAY that you think -OR- if I'm not happy to go ahead and make some choices that both honored my vow and made me happy! Like I'm horrible at this but I rarely go shopping. I take care of my clothes, have maybe 10 pair of very select shoes and take care of them. But on the occasion I really need something (like if a strap breaks on the sandals and I just need a new pair). Well rather than putting it off and then resenting the fact I have to wear sandals that are broken, I go ahead and get a new pair and research to get a good pair at a good price that will last a while! Then I feel happy and pretty! See what I'm saying here? It is your job to choose to be happy, and you do that by changing your thoughts and changing your point of view while also honoring the promises you made. 

Another component of all this the making life decisions based on "how you feel." Really if you can learn to acknowledge the emotion, and experience the emotion, but then sort of say to yourself: "I am feeling pretty emotional so for now I'm not going ot make any major life decisions or declarations" and then wait for the tide to go out and make your decision when you're more calm and together. I myself am a Feeler and get those tides of feelings all the time, and I can't just stop and "think"so I let the feeling pass and at a certain point I can feel my heart relax and my head kicks back in...and THEN I make a decision based on my head. My heart can be kind of fickle and that's the part that changes depending on whether I ate a burrito at 11:30pm! LOL. 

The last part you wrote that I thought was just EXCELLENT was this part:


> But something shifted and I said as much to him. We discussed this last night. For the first few days, I said I would do anything to keep things together. But then it hit me that doing so won't work. *If subjugating all of my own needs and wants to his is the only way to stay married, I can't do it. Yes, yes, I know that sounds incredibly selfish, and I know what people think. But it's not entirely...because if one of us, either of us, is miserable, then we are right back at square one, aren't we?*
> 
> So we are agreed that we are in this right now to figure out what makes us happy, be it together or separate. THAT is the journey we are taking together right now. And I am grateful that it is a journey we are taking TOGETHER, no matter the outcome.


I love the bold part, and I know that grates on some nerves here, but here's why I love it. Because if you subjugated all your needs to his, then there would be no YOU in the marriage. Likewise if you expected him to subjugate all his needs to yours. That way of relating is what I call the "Power Over" method and it puts you and your hubby into the role of competitors. One of you is "right" and "wins"....the other is "wrong" and "loses." One gets their way and the other gets resentful. And you know what? That methos of relating is what got you here in the first place!

Lots of people don't even "see" this! They honestly think the truth is only one way (usually their way) and thus they keep fighting and struggling and wrestling to get their OWN needs met and do it the way THEY want...never even stopping to see that it pits husband against wife then! Nope to really build a strong, happy, intimate marriage you two have to be on the same side (on the same team) and you two both have to choose to be there. 

Here's the new way to do it and get you two on the same side: Make the agreement together to never do anything until you mutually agree on it with joy (aka "yeah I'll agree to that...it's okay with me"). So let's say he wants you to do dishes as a chore and you don't want to do dishes as a chore. His need is to rest after work, and yours is to rest after cooking dinner. In the previous arrangement, you two are opponents and either he "wins" and you resent doing the dishes every single day until, like an infection, it sickens you.....OR you "win" and he resents doing the dishes every single day and he takes it out on you in other ways. NOT a relationship building method, is it? But the new way says that you two agree to not do anything until you both mutually agree. So you negotiate some options. You say "What if you do Mon-Wed-Fri and I do Tues-Thur-Sat...and on Sunday we go out to eat?" and he says "That's not okay with me. I work Mon-Wed-Fri and they are my longest days. What if we switch and you do Mon-Wed-Fri and I do Tues-Thur-Sat so I have the shortest days of my work week and a day I have off?" and you think "Well that seems fairish" and say "You know that would work for me. Okay I agree!" Ta Da you two addressed the issue, you worked together rather than opposing each other, and both of you come out with something you are okay with rather than resenting. The main things to remember with this is that it's up to you to accurately represent if it is okay with you or not. If it's not, don't say it is and then expect your spouse to "just know." And the other thing ot remember is that you agree to DO NOTHING until he is in agreement...and likewise he agrees to DO NOTHING until you agree. That means both of you have to control your own self no matter how much you may want to do something, both of you have to consider your partner, and both of you have to follow through on your agreements! 

That's a mighty tall order!!!

But by doing so you will find yourself being the kind of woman/person you want to be: good, moral, decent and respectable...but also considered and not subjugated or trapped.


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## missinglife (May 1, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> missinglife~
> 
> You have said a few things that I have found intriguing and a bit encouraging, but before I begin my comments let me start by introducing myself. I am a former disloyal spouse myself, and I was also previously a loyal spouse who ended up divorced when my ex would not end his A. So I have sadly experienced both sides. I'm pleased to see that you are thinking and asking questions--even questioning yourself a bit--to try to get to the bottom of this, and I do hope you'll for the most part ignore those who are disparaging or unhelpful. It can be REALLY hard and hurtful for a loyal spouse to see some of the honest questions we disloyals have, and often rather than appreciating the honest searching, the response is a reply from their own personal pain. So this is just me--I just don't worry about those kinds of replies, and if they persist in bugging me, I put them on "Ignore" and don't even see what they say!
> 
> ...


Wow, this was all very thought-provoking (and feeling-provoking?). I don't have time to fully respond right now but thank you. I appreciate all of this input, it was an amazing read and I need some time to go over it point by point.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> missinglife~
> 
> 
> Now naturally as a loyal you're aware that things were not all rainbows and roses, but at most they thought it was lazy/neglectful and maybe fighty....not something that would end the marriage! From our point of view though, the disloyal side, it seemed more like "I can not take this any longer--I've tried and tried and tried to let you know I can not take this and it's hurting me--I've lit myself on fire to try to get your attention to notice how much this is hurting me--and you still don't care. So I'm closing now, and if it hurts you well too bad you've hurt me for YEARS!"


A fantastic post, but how does a Disloyal actually try to get attention? Moodyness, silence, bouts of ill temper which, when asked, 'What's wrong?' is often met with, you guessed it, 'Nothing.'
If a genuine effort to talk about the issues has been laid out (which given your post and the intelligence shown within I believe you may have been a talker) I can understand the frustration.
But if the problems have not been communicated how is one to know?
And given my position of being a BS, I still would have preferred the divorce papers slapped in front of me rather than being cheated on. (Although i do accept that you're not in anyway endorsing cheating behaviours)

Great post though


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## JustWaiting (Jun 28, 2011)

You asked about "stages of grief for the WS". This is all so fresh for both you and your husband... There is a difference between sadness and remorse. There's an old formula that has a bit of wisdom to it and it goes something like this: I sinned, I'm sorry, I'm forgiven, I do whatever I can to make amends. 

It doesn't work if it's I sinned but he sinned too or he pushed me into it. That may all be true, and he may need to face up to some things, but you need to own your part because it is your own part in this that you need to be at peace with.

It doesn't work if you are sorry you picked the wrong AP, cause that means you are not really sorry.

If you get past the first two, you can forgive yourself. That will require sincerely asking your H for forgiveness. He may or may not give it, but you need to ask at some point.

And it means you need to make amends. That is tough, because it sounds like you are thinking of your H's responsibility in all of this. I agree it took two to get you to where you are, but blame won't get you through grief. 

I hope counseling helps both of you. If you are going to stay married, there is a lot of relationship negotiation you will both have to work together on. 

If you don't stay married, moving on will dull the grief, but if you don't address this old-fashioned formula for getting over grief you will have recurrent triggers in the future until you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

missinglife;720405
One thing we are agreed on is that if we stay together said:


> Hi
> 
> I am a betrayed spouse, so I hope I am not breaking any rules by responding. I am here trying to figure out my husbands mind set. He had an affair and now wants to reconcile. I am very sad and confused.
> 
> ...


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Missing Life:

Too add, after reading all your threads I did notice that you mentioned that your affair was the premeditated type. 

My husband's was also premeditated. If you gooogle different types of affairs, you will quickly see from objective sources that this is absolutely the worst type of affair. 

The cold premeditation also, according to experts, does not bode well. The premeditators are the ones who are likely to be repeat offenders. 

That is another reason why I chose separation from my husband. I need to think clearly without his constant gas lighting and minimizing and rug sweeping. 

People no longer need to get married. People can even have children while single. 

Sex in any long term marriage always becomes a tad routine. We need to work on spicing things up. But both people need to work on it. 

All the problems you discuss in your present marriage will not go away in your second.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Lon said:


> As a BS I experienced pain like I have never known possible when I felt the betrayal of infidelity, and I know I relate to other BS on here in the intensity and magnitude of that pain. .


I do so understand your feelings. Divorce papers would have hurt so much less than financial, emotional, physical infidelity.

Also, I had asked for counseling prior to his affair because I could sense a distancing. My husband is the type that clams up and represses his anger or resentments. Still he refused claiming psychologists are idiots.

It is really sad that NOW in MC he told the counselor that one of his complaints was that I would not spend money to enjoy life.

The even sadder thing is that he was saving for a start up business and I was being cautious with our spending to help him with cash flow. 

Instead of insisting that he wanted more dinners out and more vacations, He took his girlfriend. He lied and claimed he was on business trips or his men's only camping trips to take her on pricey vacations, while I literally sat at home alone eating leftovers.

If he had insisted on dinners out or the vacations, I would have gladly gone, if he explained he needed them to be happy. I thought saving his money would make him happy.

I think blaming me for not wanting to go on vacations is Bull. He actually discouraged me from going claiming the business trips would be too boring for me and I would have to spend most of the day and evening alone. 

Also, one time I suggested a cruise that my friend had just raved about and he scoffed and said we needed to save for the business. 

I am so confused. Sometimes I think I am a fool to even consider R. Other times I think he can change.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Sara8, yeah for me its not that my ex slept with another man that really hurt me that much, nor is it the paperwork that officially ended our marriage, its the world of lies she fabricated to facilitate it - Her remorselessness and guiltlessness towards me and the destruction of our marriage was the part that hurt, made me fall out of love with her and forever lose my respect for her as a person. That is the loss the BS grieves. I honestly have no idea what the DS grieves because it is all of their own doing, was their choice to cut that loss already.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Lon said:


> Sara8, yeah for me its not that my ex slept with another man that really hurt me that much, nor is it the paperwork that officially ended our marriage, its the world of lies she fabricated to facilitate it - Her remorselessness and guiltlessness towards me and the destruction of our marriage was the part that hurt, made me fall out of love with her and forever lose my respect for her as a person. That is the loss the BS grieves. I honestly have no idea what the DS grieves because it is all of their own doing, was their choice to cut that loss already.


Lon, I couldn't agree more with your assessment. I think back to how my ex gaslighted me while she was in the throes of her affair. I knew my marriage was falling apart but I didn't know why.

I think back to the coldness of her hugs and the brief pecks on the lips when I would try to kiss her and I shudder. She did a complete re-write of our history. Before the affairs, she was always so proud to retell the story of us getting back together at our high school reunion. However, a few months before dday, the subject of the reunion came up and she stated coldly that 'you didn't know that I was going to be there.' Of course, I blew a gasket and she tried to downplay her comment.

To this day, I haven't seen any display of true remorse by her. Maybe that will happen when that big Karma bus hits her. Who knows.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Lon and Countofmontecristo:

I am in agreement, too.

Count, you mentioned the rewriting of the marital history. I went through that, too. I was baffled. His complaints since being in the fog of his affair with a woman who told him he was perfect was news to me. I guess being told he was perfect by another married cheater caused amnesia.

Even more amazing, after d day he said he would have kept the affair going for as long as possible if not uncovered, yet now he denies saying that. 

No one is perfect and when someone tells you you are perfect, heck, IMO, that should be red flag to run for cover as fast as you can.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> there is a fundamental difference between the WS who has poor boundaries and gets involved in an affair (as they weren't initially seeking to have one necessarily but rather poorly took an opportunity that presented itself) and a WS like you, one who intentionally sought one out and took measures to do as such (like sign up for ashlee mahdison)
> 
> Spot on Almost!


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Lon and Countofmontecristo:
> 
> I am in agreement, too.
> 
> ...


Sara, funny that you mentioned perfect. While reading my ex-wife's 200-page 'I'm a Cheating Wh*re Manifesto' between her the OM, she told him that he had the 'perfect' D*CK.

I have to say that one knocked the ol' self-esteem down a bit.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> she told him that he had the 'perfect' D*CK.


OMG!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Schmoopies!!!

Have you seen this? link

You should get a good laugh outta that.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Sara, funny that you mentioned perfect. While reading my ex-wife's 200-page 'I'm a Cheating Wh*re Manifesto' between her the OM, she told him that he had the 'perfect' D*CK.
> 
> I have to say that one knocked the ol' self-esteem down a bit.


I am sorry it hurt your self esteem. I know what that feels like, but I am starting to realize it wasn't about me and obviously the OW as is the OM in your case are not perfect.......waaaay far from it.

But Geesh, the perfect ****? That's to danged funny. I mean seriously how many has she seen in order to draw that conclusion and if it doesn't number in the millions she could hardly draw that conclusion by any realistic study. 

Who would even say something like that? 

Well in a way depending on how you interpret the usage of the word **** (as in jerk) the OM is a totally **** and he may be the most perfect totally **** in that respect. Sorry couldn't help myself.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> OMG!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Schmoopies!!!
> 
> Have you seen this? link
> 
> You should get a good laugh outta that.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

OH MY GOD!! Pit, I'm crying. Thanks. I needed that.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Count,

He had the perfect D*ck or he was the perfect D*ck?


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> OMG!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!! Schmoopies!!!
> 
> Have you seen this? link
> 
> You should get a good laugh outta that.


You beat me to it!!!

I will confess, I had a moment or two there where I actually thought, OMG, Count is the OWH!! :rofl:

*&^%$ cheater's script.


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## Hank567 (Apr 23, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Count of Monte Cristo said:
> 
> 
> > Sara, funny that you mentioned perfect. While reading my ex-wife's 200-page 'I'm a Cheating Wh*re Manifesto' between her the OM, she told him that he had the 'perfect' D*CK.
> ...


Yep, same here, between my XW and her POSOM. Whoever wrote the script to the schmoopie videos knows what's up.


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## t_hopper_2012 (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm going to be blunt here.

I think you and your husband are done dancing.

You spent 4 months seeking, acting on and then further seeking a sexual relationship outside your marriage.

The *** hits the fan and you don't feel remorse - just sadness. Well, of course you're sad. You're sitting in a marriage that is completely screwed up ... BY YOUR OWN DELIBERATE ACTIONS. Rather than put on your big girl panties and admit that you acted selfishly and work to fix it, you want to engage in some navel gazing.

Do your husband a favor. Admit that you're not cut out to be a faithful spouse or an equal partner in a marriage. Split custody 50/50 with him and get out of the marriage.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

t_hopper_2012 said:


> Do your husband a favor. Admit that you're not cut out to be a faithful spouse or an equal partner in a marriage. Split custody 50/50 with him and get out of the marriage.


:iagree:

This is what my ex did. And I thank her for that.


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