# No win situation



## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I've made a few topics regarding my LD wife. I'm pretty much fed up at this point, even when I do get some. The past two days, my wife has actually surprised me and initiated sexual flirting in the afternoons insinuating a good night once bed time came. Well, both nights at bed time, the dreaded "i'm tired i just want to sleep" happened.

This of course pissed me off, leading to a fight yesterday morning and last night. We had a "discussion" last night and I basically asked her what the hell she does to make me happy. Other than cooking and laundry, she couldnt come up with one reason. After telling her all the things I do for her, and telling her I was almost done with this marriage, she of course wanted to shut me up by having sex.

I of course refused, telling her I dont want her duty sex or "shut me up" sex. She became relentless and started doing everything in her power to have sex with me. The more I refused, the harder she tried. Eventually my weak ass gave in, and we had hot and passionate sex.

So of course this morning I wake up with guilt. She didnt really have sex because she wanted to. It was still duty sex, but just with passion. I'm a good man. A good family man. I love my wife but the only thing I know to do is pull away. Being constantly rejected by your wife stings bad. Doesnt matter the reason, it hurts. At this point, I dont know what to do because I'm in a no win situation I feel. I have sex when she wants it, which is rare, or I get "shut me up" sex and feel like a scumbag for making her do something she doesnt feel like doing. 

I feel at this point its either accept things the way they are, or divorce. I just cant imagine putting my kids through a divorce because lack of sex. Just really dont know what to do anymore. I'm really tired of having to argue for sex, and even more tired of feeling like a scumbag afterwards.....


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Whats her answer been when you ask her about her lack of wanting sex? Just excuses? My guess is it goes deeper than that, and she probably doesn't want to come clean with what the real issue is. I would say since you can't fix her, then yes, acceptance or divorce might be your only options left.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Ask her to read through this site. I know for me, it helped me a lot to really understand the need of a HD person. I kind of got it before, but not really. It was reading post after post and having it articulated over and over that really drove it home for me.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

You might give "Married Man Sex Life" a try. Google it. Read the book, get involved in the forum. NOTE: you must read the book, not just read the forum. If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always gotten.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

romantic_guy said:


> You might give "Married Man Sex Life" a try. Google it. Read the book, get involved in the forum. NOTE: you must read the book, not just read the forum. If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always gotten.


I read it a few months ago. Maybe I should read it again.

Also, she would freak if she knew I posted here and she would never come here even if I asked her to. In her mind, her LD is perfectly normal, backed up by all the "marriage=no sex" jokes you see in todays culture. In her mind, I'm a nympho for wanting sex 2 times a week. To her, once a week is more than enough and I would guess 75% of that would be duty sex.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

CallaLily said:


> Whats her answer been when you ask her about her lack of wanting sex? Just excuses? My guess is it goes deeper than that, and she probably doesn't want to come clean with what the real issue is. I would say since you can't fix her, then yes, acceptance or divorce might be your only options left.


Its always "I'm tired" or its to late and she just wants to sleep. Even when we do have sex, its rarely passionate and pretty obvious its duty sex.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> Its always "I'm tired" or its to late and she just wants to sleep. Even when we do have sex, its rarely passionate and pretty obvious its duty sex.


I think this happens when a spouse is no longer really "in love" with their spouse. As hard as that might be to swallow, IMO that might be at least part of it. Loving some one and being "in love" are two different things.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

CallaLily said:


> I think this happens when a spouse is no longer really "in love" with their spouse. As hard as that might be to swallow, IMO that might be at least part of it. Loving some one and being "in love" are two different things.


"In love" is an infatuated feeling, a teen may have that will make a heart beat faster or grow heavier when they are close to the object or away from it.

As usual, these things can be managed to an extent.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> I've made a few topics regarding my LD wife. I'm pretty much fed up at this point, even when I do get some. The past two days, my wife has actually surprised me and initiated sexual flirting in the afternoons insinuating a good night once bed time came. Well, both nights at bed time, the dreaded "i'm tired i just want to sleep" happened.
> 
> This of course pissed me off, leading to a fight yesterday morning and last night. *We had a "discussion" last night and I basically asked her what the hell she does to make me happy. Other than cooking and laundry, she couldnt come up with one reason. After telling her all the things I do for her, and telling her I was almost done with this marriage, she of course wanted to shut me up by having sex.*
> 
> ...


THis is about WAY more than the sex.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> THis is about WAY more than the sex.


Probably. She is a selfish woman. She admits it too. When I asked what she did for me, I meant the little things that you go out of your way for to make your spouse happy. I do a lot of those little things because, to me, a good husband is supposed to do it. 

I guess the 64 million dollar question is....is she truly LD because of whats going on inside her body, or is she LD because of me. Now how do you find out the truth?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Stop being a good husband and see how she reacts.


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## pierrematoe (Sep 6, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Probably. She is a selfish woman. She admits it too. When I asked what she did for me, I meant the little things that you go out of your way for to make your spouse happy. I do a lot of those little things because, to me, a good husband is supposed to do it.
> 
> I guess the 64 million dollar question is....is she truly LD because of whats going on inside her body, or is she LD because of me. Now how do you find out the truth?


IMHO you two need an honest session(s) with a MC to get to the cause of her LD. You need to rule out medical issues or hormone conditions but either she desires you sexually or she doesn't. Its a two way street and she needs to understand that. A good MC/ST will be able to help you both. 

MMSL is not a good solution until you know what the issue is and can cause additional issues if not practiced correctly.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> Probably. She is a selfish woman. She admits it too. When I asked what she did for me, I meant the little things that you go out of your way for to make your spouse happy. I do a lot of those little things because, to me, a good husband is supposed to do it.
> 
> I guess the 64 million dollar question is....is she truly LD because of whats going on inside her body, or is she LD because of me. Now how do you find out the truth?


Low drive, or low desire? Big difference. Does she want sex, just not with you?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I read it a few months ago. Maybe I should read it again.
> 
> Also, she would freak if she knew I posted here and she would never come here even if I asked her to. In her mind, her LD is perfectly normal, backed up by all the "marriage=no sex" jokes you see in todays culture. In her mind, I'm a nympho for wanting sex 2 times a week. To her, once a week is more than enough and I would guess 75% of that would be duty sex.


Well you just learn to build up your lust and savour that one times a week. Imagine the people who go one time a month or even years without it. Years without any sex and intimacy, not even duty sex, not even a touch.

I agree with you too. A 2 times a week compromise is not considered a nympho.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> I guess the 64 million dollar question is....is she truly LD because of whats going on inside her body, or is she LD because of me. Now how do you find out the truth?


You change. You don't sit around and hope and pray that a lightning bolt of high libido will strike your wife out of the blue and magically transform her into a better wife. You don't try to debate her into desiring you. You get off your butt and run the MAP. Change yourself and see how she reacts.

Good luck.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

where_are_we said:


> This is where I am at. Except I am the female. He is too tired, not passionate about it or into it when it does happen.
> 
> I also started to wonder if maybe he has fallen out of love with me.


Even if a man isn't in love he will take the sex... But we learn on TAM some men are not sexual.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

hawx20...the way you know if they are LD for you or just LD period is by an honest look at their overall history.

A truly LD person will basically only be HD for brief periods, such as in the beginning of a relationship. Normally a truly LD person will not be consistently wanting sex at any time in their lives other than those brief periods. They will also laugh at the "marriage = no sex" jokes...whereas, someone who isn't truly LD usually will not.

If she is just LD for you but not truly LD in general, she likely wouldn't think the jokes were funny, she would be MB'ing regularly, and she will engage in various sexual banter, reading, watching porn occasionally, etc. When someone is LD for you but not in general, their sex life will go on privately.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Also hawx, on another thread you said: "The physical enjoyment is phenomenal, but it pales in comparison to the emotional. When I think about sex with my wife, i dont think about ejaculation. I think about how great it feels to kiss her, have her body in my hands, and how good it feels to be "wrapped" up with her in intimacy. 

Why cant she understand this?"


There is another thing possibly in play here, too.

Some people are LD because they have intimacy issues or are intimacy avoidant.

Their body may not naturally be LD, but their intimacy issues can shut down their bodies, so in effect they are LD.

Intimacy issues or being intimacy avoidant can be something that a person never deals with and they may go through their whole lives avoiding sex just to avoid intimacy. This is something that has to be faced by the individual and worked on deliberately in order to overcome it. Anon Pink is a good example of someone who overcame her own intimacy issues because she wanted to get past them in order to have a good sex life. She wasn't LD, she was intimacy avoidant...so when she dealt with that, her sex life bloomed. (Her H hasn't met her with the same efforts though).

I'm just throwing out the idea that LD can be stemming from a few different directions.

But in most cases...it is something you cannot "cure".


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> hawx20...the way you know if they are LD for you or just LD period is by an honest look at their overall history.
> 
> A truly LD person will basically only be HD for brief periods, such as in the beginning of a relationship. Normally a truly LD person will not be consistently wanting sex at any time in their lives other than those brief periods. They will also laugh at the "marriage = no sex" jokes...whereas, someone who isn't truly LD usually will not.


Well, she loves those jokes. In fact, she uses the jokes to back up her claim that married people dont have much sex. I dont recall there being a sex problem before our child was born 6 years ago. All she wants to do is sleep she tells me. She does require a ton of sleep and she leads a very active lifestyle while awake. While I can understand her being tired, sex is what gets put on hold, not so much the things that make her tired. 

Oddly enough, she did finally acknowledge the other day that there may be a medical issue with her LD. I was shocked to hear that. Only problem is, she wont do anything to fix it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

hawx said: "Oddly enough, she did finally acknowledge the other day that there may be a medical issue with her LD. I was shocked to hear that. Only problem is, she wont do anything to fix it."

There usually isn't a "medical issue"...but it is always important to find out for sure.

The thing is though, if our bodies are just "set" at a certain drive level...and that is our normal...then is this a "medical issue"? Not really. Same way an HD is normal and there is no "medical issue".


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> hawx said: "Oddly enough, she did finally acknowledge the other day that there may be a medical issue with her LD. I was shocked to hear that. Only problem is, she wont do anything to fix it."
> 
> There usually isn't a "medical issue"...but it is always important to find out for sure.
> 
> The thing is though, if our bodies are just "set" at a certain drive level...and that is our normal...then is this a "medical issue"? Not really. Same way an HD is normal and there is no "medical issue".


My belief is it could be your psychology. Certain psychologies are great for a couple of things, but suck for sex and empathy.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Here's how it happened for me. First it dropped to once a week. That went on for about a year. Like you I found this barely tolerable. Like you, I let her know. Then it became every other week. I got mad more often, let her know I felt neglected. It accelerated from there. Soon, it became no sex during period week, then period week somehow became two weeks long instead of one. Then there was no sex in the week leading up to the period fortnight, so there was really only one week during the month when sex was even possible at all. I was a jerk because I couldn't understand that. During the one week a month when sex wasn't explicitly off limits, there were really only a couple of days because having sex on a weeknight was really impossible too. Finally sex at night became off limits because she was really more of a morning person than a nighttime person. Oh, and in the morning she needed to work out (every day), so mornings were out too. In end, she felt like she was doing me a major favor to squeeze sex in one time every 5-8 weeks and it has been that way ever since.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> Here's how it happened for me. First it dropped to once a week. That went on for about a year. Like you I found this barely tolerable. Like you, I let her know. Then it became every other week. I got mad more often, let her know I felt neglected. It accelerated from there. Soon, it became no sex during period week, then period week somehow became two weeks long instead of one. Then there was no sex in the week leading up to the period fortnight, so there was really only one week during the month when sex was even possible at all. I was a jerk because I couldn't understand that. During the one week a month when sex wasn't explicitly off limits, there were really only a couple of days because having sex on a weeknight was really impossible too. Finally sex at night became off limits because she was really more of a morning person than a nighttime person. Oh, and in the morning she needed to work out (every day), so mornings were out too. In end, she felt like she was doing me a major favor to squeeze sex in one time every 5-8 weeks and it has been that way ever since.


It's pretty obvious she doesn't want to "give you any time", she's embellishing in herself and loves it. It would be painful for her to use her attention to give you sex.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

If she has a medical issue, contributing to her LD, then she should of told you right away and literally ran to the Dr. and got meds to deal with this. But instead, she doesn't want to do anything about it? Correct?

Sometimes LD spouses are average drive while dating and first getting married. But later on, their true LD self comes out and the sex trickles down to 1 - 2x month? Maybe less? And they don't care how it effects their other hubby / wifee. It's their problem and not their own.

Some spouses are LD because they were abused and never told anyone or dealt with the abuse.

Some LD spouses were treated badly in their youth and its carried over to the present and they never got help and over that either.

Whether its the hubby or wifee with the LD issues, they got married because they love their other half, right? And that means SEX.......yes, SEX.

If they know their other half is sexually starved, talks about it, either they do something about it out of love or they don't and at that point, MC or there's the door for them. Marriage is not easy and there is hard work involved but a 50 / 50 marriage were both sides take care of their others needs is a must.

Now the downside of not pressing the LD spouse for sex. They will love that and you will get even less sex, maybe none. You lose that way as well.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Probably. She is a selfish woman. She admits it too. When I asked what she did for me, I meant the little things that you go out of your way for to make your spouse happy. I do a lot of those little things because, to me, a good husband is supposed to do it.
> 
> I guess the 64 million dollar question is....is she truly LD because of whats going on inside her body, or is she LD because of me. Now how do you find out the truth?


 She has the best of both worlds. Give as little as possible and expects a large return. Whose fault is that? Your putting your best foot forward. Start using the other foot instead. 

There's a lot of jokes about people both men and women with LD. She crack a "No sex joke", sling one back. And one more thing. Stop accepting pity sex. She knows she has you by the short hairs when she wiggles her butt. Let her know that she can wiggle it until it falls off and if there's a medical problem that's causing this then she either goes to the doctor and get it fixed because it could be a lot cheaper that the legal fees when the marriage blows up in her face. Say it with a straight face and with meaning. If she has a brain, maybe she'll get the idea that he BS is getting old and it could lead to a unhappy ending.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

As opposed to what, exactly? What does 'good' or 'good enough' actually look like in that context? Do you want more sex or do you want her to like you more? 

I'll tell you I look at these things, and this is only my own view of it, the same way someone looks at alcoholics and that is, by the time problems show up at work then the alcoholic is getting close to the bottom. Because people will protect their source of income. So if your spouse is just cutting you off that just may be the last thing to go, not the first.


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## jac70 (Sep 7, 2013)

CallaLily said:


> I think this happens when a spouse is no longer really "in love" with their spouse. As hard as that might be to swallow, IMO that might be at least part of it. Loving some one and being "in love" are two different things.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I've made a few topics regarding my LD wife. I'm pretty much fed up at this point, even when I do get some. The past two days, my wife has actually surprised me and initiated sexual flirting in the afternoons insinuating a good night once bed time came. Well, both nights at bed time, the dreaded "i'm tired i just want to sleep" happened.
> 
> This of course pissed me off, leading to a fight yesterday morning and last night. We had a "discussion" last night and I basically asked her what the hell she does to make me happy. Other than cooking and laundry, she couldnt come up with one reason. After telling her all the things I do for her, and telling her I was almost done with this marriage, she of course wanted to shut me up by having sex.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm, your wife sounds a lot like me. It took me 10 years to get my sh1t together and realize that I could and should find a way to be an equal and giving sexual partner to my husband. 

I wish you could find a way to get your wife to this forum or one like it; that's what flipped the switch for me. Like your wife, I've come to realize I'm a very selfish person. It's not that I don't do a ton of stuff for other people, but I tend to guard my own likes and dislikes with impenetrable righteousness. Having my husband express a wish for me to change my opinion about something always ended up with me doubling down. One of the things I just could not accept was that lack of sexual intimacy and the tension it was causing in our marriage was making him so utterly miserable that it was affecting his ability to function in nearly every aspect of his life. How could it be true if I could still function without the intimacy? I wasn't happy with our marriage, but I wasn't paralyzed, either. If I could do it, HE could do it. 

Selfish, dismissive, impenetrable. 

I fixed it, but it's required a lot of work on myself. I don't know how you get your wife to do that sort of work if she's not willing. 

I think one of the things that prompted me was that my desire for my husband did get a little boost when he started to become more selfish. He never stopped talking to me about what lack of sex was doing to him, but at some point he started to try and pull his life back together and develop some interests outside of our marriage again. 

He's discovered MMSLP and finds it really useful in understanding what turns me on, and how my desire took a nose dive when he put aside his "alpha" tendencies after we had kids. I'm not sure if you're in that category of "nice guy," but if you are, you are likely shooting yourself in the foot. My husband has self-diagnosed himself as a "nice guy" and asked me to pick up No More Mr. Nice Guy for him to read. 

You mention that the sex you had last night ended up being pretty hot. I wouldn't dismiss it as duty sex. She might have been responding to your forcefulness during the previous argument. Whining is not sexy, but laying out your needs clearly, confidently and without shame is another matter. 

Since rediscovering what pushes my desire buttons, my husband has me all over him all the time. I still am in IC to learn to deal with my resentment issues and to learn to strip off my blinders when it comes to hearing, understanding, and responding to the emotional needs that do not mirror my own. I've also had to learn to not be afraid to lay out my emotional needs, even when I think that he might devalue them. (He never has, but I assumed he would, so I kept them to myself. Selfish people see their behavior as normal, and suppose that others are just as selfish.) 

I would guess your wife needs to address the same sort of issues . . . but convincing an emotionally selfish person is undeniably difficult. I propose trying to figure out how to trip her desire so she _wants_ to start to take a look at how to understand your sexual intimacy needs. Once she does that, she might come across some interesting observations about herself. I was horrified when I discovered how my husband had been suffering, and the guilt is another reason I'm still in IC.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

You mentioned your children as your primary reason against divorce - you didn't want to put your children through that.

Are there other reasons you are staying with your wife?

I am feeling rather in an unwinnable situation myself - and it stinks to have to choose between two things you don't want. One person can't make a 3rd option available - that takes two people - two WILLING people and a lot of hard work.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

Have you asked her why she is teasing and making you think she is receptive and then turns you down? That makes it worse.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There are cases where she's really tired... After getting the "I'm tired" or "I have a UTI" or "I have a sinus infection" I got a great laugh this weekend when she had a major crisis at work and worked 8 am to 10 p m both Sat and Sun. Watched half an hour of Netflix and collapsed asleep on the bed :rofl:. 

In general, you need to figure out if she's fixable or not. Forget the MMSLP's and NMMNG's and all the alphabet soups. These are to try IF she's fixable. 

Is there emotional connection between you two? I see the whole thing as three separate things, love, sex, and emotional connections. You need all three. 

After 30 years we should be in the position where we finish each other's sentences and think in a very similar way. We're not. We're simply not connected emotionally. When we have sex it's incredible, hard as it may seem to believe, lasts for a lot longer than one would think, except it's nowhere near as frequent as I would like. 

So, you need to figure out whether the emotional connection is there or not. After sex, say, the next day, when your batteries have been recharged so to speak, do all these little annoyances of her bother you, or you can go for a while overlooking them. I used to go for a while overlooking her very quirky personality (BPD will do that ) but over the last few months it's a lost cause. It's not sex that I'm after - it's the emotional connection. 

You can fix low-sex a lot easier than you can fix low-emo. For sex, simply make the determination that you won't bother with it until she's ready to work with you to resolve the situation. If this means six months, so be it. If she can go for that long, that's your future. Meanwhile, do a slow 180 and start ignoring her (or a fast one depending on your preferences). Yesterday and today I would have tried to help her a bit, make coffee / tea, offer some encouragement, etc. Not this Dr. I took my can of paint and spent the weekend painting our fence, letting her save the world....

To summarize, without understanding why she's taking this approach and without understanding what you can and will do about it it's a lost cause. Have a talk with yourself and define how far you're willing to go (divorce, silent treatment for months) etc and what you want out of the relationship. Also try to map out her behavior overall. Does she seem detached, indifferent, etc. or it's just the physical aspect? The "I'm tired" routine is more believable if she's in good shape overall relationship wise...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Onceconfusedmale said:


> I agree with Mavash. Start doing less. Spend more time out of the house - without her. She may be content with her life the way it is. Shake up her world a little. Her reaction could be revealing.


I don't think this is necessary here. IMO this is for when a spouse needs to be reminded of the other's contribution.

Here, the OP's wife acknowledges her own selfishness. Plus, he flat out asked "what do you do for me" and then she would not relent until he relented and allowed her to be passionate with him. There was no excuse making ("I'm tired", "I do plenty for you", "you don't do sh!t for me either"), walking away, or half-hearted sex attempt). She responded by being *into it*.

I think the OP can go straight into long-term expectations. "I liked the energy you put into it that night. What I don't like is having to make such an adversarial thing out of sex. You know that I'm worth it, and I know you're more than capable. You now need to work on being more gracious and responsive."

Of course the OP's can make an excuse like "you're not that good - I was just keeping the peace", in which case the pull-back would be a good idea. But for now, assume she gets the point and don't risk resentment, especially when it might be seen as pouring salt into an open wound.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Hmmmm, your wife sounds a lot like me. It took me 10 years to get my sh1t together and realize that I could and should find a way to be an equal and giving sexual partner to my husband.
> 
> I wish you could find a way to get your wife to this forum or one like it; that's what flipped the switch for me. Like your wife, I've come to realize I'm a very selfish person. It's not that I don't do a ton of stuff for other people, but I tend to guard my own likes and dislikes with impenetrable righteousness. Having my husband express a wish for me to change my opinion about something always ended up with me doubling down. One of the things I just could not accept was that lack of sexual intimacy and the tension it was causing in our marriage was making him so utterly miserable that it was affecting his ability to function in nearly every aspect of his life. How could it be true if I could still function without the intimacy? I wasn't happy with our marriage, but I wasn't paralyzed, either. If I could do it, HE could do it.
> 
> ...


Hi Getting It,

I wanted to say two things. First and foremost, kudos to you for owning your part in this and for undertaking the hard work to correct your issues. Lots of folks won't even do the first part, much less the second. That's what leads to all the avoidance and excuse-making you see here.

Second, you are absolutely right that the OP cannot make his wife improve her behavior. In fact, if she is as selfish as he portrays, she might not want to improve her behavior nor want him to fix himself either (NMMNG, MMSLP, etc.). My experience was exactly that. My ex developed some serious resentments once I placed myself on equal footing and pushed back against being disregarded. Basically, she was superior and me insisting on anything (vs. being happy with whatever I got) was unfair to her.

Just something to consider for the OP.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

thanks for all the replies. There are some good suggestions here. To answer some of the questions....

Other than sex, everything else is okay. Emotionally we are good. We enjoy doing things together, and she always wants me cuddling with her. 

I am the nice guy. Always have been. While not the perfect husband by any means, I have always done what I can to take care of my wife. Does she take me and the things I do for granted? Yeah, i'm pretty sure she does. 

Also I read some posts about "love" and being "in love". Well, we wouldnt stay married just to not hurt the other. I dont think we could adjust to life without each other. We know each other better than we know ourselves. When we're apart, we miss each other. I guess thats what you call being in love.

I had a long "talk" with myself and decided to make some changes starting today. I'm not initiating anything, be it kissing, touching, sex, whatever. Everyday when I have free time I'm spending less and less time on my hobbies to spend it with her. I'm ending that today too. Its time to be all about me. I'm going to bed when I want to, not when shes ready. I've also marked the last time we had sex and i'm going to try my hardest not to initiate it. I want to see how long its going to be before she initiates. 

This is the only thing I can do. I'm not going to get divorced over a lack of sex. Even though it makes me very unhappy and feel unwanted, I just cant give up my family over it. I've got to figure something out so I'm curious to see how this goes.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> You mention that the sex you had last night ended up being pretty hot. I wouldn't dismiss it as duty sex. She might have been responding to your forcefulness during the previous argument. Whining is not sexy, but laying out your needs clearly, confidently and without shame is another matter.


Thats exactly what I did. I laid out my needs and what she is lacking clearly, confidently, and without shame. Also, I did it to get it off my chest, not to guilt her into sex. I didnt even want it at that point. Of course after that, she ripped her clothes off and jumped on me which she never does. And of course, the more I rejected her advances the more she tried to get my attention.

And of course I'm a weak man when I have a naked woman I love doing everything in her power to turn me on. Being a male, its a little hard to hide the fact that you are turned on (no pun intended).


So maybe I solved my own problem. Stop putting everything on her terms and get back to focusing on me. Let me be selfish for a change.

Sad part is, I think I know what it would take to get her to be what I want. Its just not the way I want to be and I feel like i'm dating again and playing games. Its not who I am but I guess having to play games to get a womans sexual desire doesnt just apply to dating.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

By all means try the suggestions here - they do work occasionally.

IMO, if that does not work and you stay and remain unhappy, you are teaching your children that marriage sucks and is the path of unhappiness. IMO, that message can do them far more damage in the future and in their relationships, than divorce. At least with divorce, you may be happier and may find a new, good relationship that will provide them the example of what is possible on the positive side in marriage. It worked for me.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Thats exactly what I did. I laid out my needs and what she is lacking clearly, confidently, and without shame. Also, I did it to get it off my chest, not to guilt her into sex. I didnt even want it at that point. Of course after that, she ripped her clothes off and jumped on me which she never does. And of course, the more I rejected her advances the more she tried to get my attention.


My husband's "neediness" was a huge turn off for me. When he was assertive and confident, it upped my desire. It's not an uncommon dynamic, so it could be part of what's going on with your wife. 



hawx20 said:


> And of course I'm a weak man when I have a naked woman I love doing everything in her power to turn me on. Being a male, its a little hard to hide the fact that you are turned on (no pun intended).


My husband struggled with this, too. He couldn't tell me no if I was persistent enough when *I* wanted sex. I'm glad he never shut down toward me. Knowing that I was desired was an important part of my being able to repair my high libido. 

This is the danger I see in your stopping initiating altogether and in your not responding when she gives in--she gets the message you don't want her anymore, you don't find her attractive anymore, etc. Careful you don't open another can of worms. I'd suggest initiating regularly but keeping your response to her rejection very measured. That is, don't get pouty and pissy, just move on to doing something else. 



hawx20 said:


> So maybe I solved my own problem. Stop putting everything on her terms and get back to focusing on me. Let me be selfish for a change.
> 
> Sad part is, I think I know what it would take to get her to be what I want.


What would it take?



hawx20 said:


> Its just not the way I want to be and I feel like i'm dating again and playing games. Its not who I am but I guess having to play games to get a womans sexual desire doesnt just apply to dating.


Don't think of it as playing games, or you run the risk of being selfish yourself. Understanding what trips her desire and engaging it that behavior is your contribution to the sex life you want. It's part of fulfilling her needs--which, ultimately, you will have to learn to do if you want to fix this long-term.

My husband "gets this" now, and, I think, has come to very much enjoy "playing the game."


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> My husband's "neediness" was a huge turn off for me. When he was assertive and confident, it upped my desire. It's not an uncommon dynamic, so it could be part of what's going on with your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm an affectionate guy. I got kind of mad the other day when she got upset that I tried to give her a peck on the lips. She called me needy. I guess she thinks of my affection as being needy.

I dont plan to reject her advances. If she initiates I will respond. I just plan not to initiate anything, be it sex or affection. 

I know a big part of the problem is being beta. I just dont think about being alpha/beta anymore. I get caught up on being a good father/husband and do things my wife/kids want to do. 

I'm really starting to think my wife doesnt want that. She wants to be led. When she asks what are we doing today, she doesnt want to her "i dont know, i dont care, or what do you want to do". I think she wants to hear "we are doing this, eating here, and going here".

I know shes the type of person who takes me for granted because I'm always "here". I have a feeling I'd be having sex all the time if she felt "threatened" by me leaving or if she felt unwanted by me. Some people just cant handle a good thing and they dont fear losing it. I think thats where my problem lies. I'm always there, I'm not going anywhere, and I'll always be here. No need to work for something that is given to you I guess.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I know a big part of the problem is being beta. I just dont think about being alpha/beta anymore. I get caught up on being a good father/husband and do things my wife/kids want to do.
> 
> I'm really starting to think my wife doesnt want that. She wants to be led. When she asks what are we doing today, she doesnt want to her "i dont know, i dont care, or what do you want to do". I think she wants to hear "we are doing this, eating here, and going here".


This is exactly it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> This is the danger I see in your stopping initiating altogether and in your not responding when she gives in--she gets the message you don't want her anymore, you don't find her attractive anymore, etc. Careful you don't open another can of worms. I'd suggest initiating regularly but keeping your response to her rejection very measured. That is, don't get pouty and pissy, just move on to doing something else.


The above is a Carte Blanche to keep trying and failing and taking it all in stride, ad infinitum ad nauseaum. How did Einstein put it about the definition of insanity?

Remember the dog vs cat analogy. If you feed a cat 10 times and hit it once it will remember the being hit once part more than the being fed 10x part. Reverse for dogs. Once the success rate drops and you're batting .10 good luck recovering.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I had a long "talk" with myself and decided to make some changes starting today. I'm not initiating anything, be it kissing, touching, sex, whatever. Everyday when I have free time I'm spending less and less time on my hobbies to spend it with her. I'm ending that today too. Its time to be all about me. I'm going to bed when I want to, not when shes ready. I've also marked the last time we had sex and i'm going to try my hardest not to initiate it. I want to see how long its going to be before she initiates.


What happens if she is perfectly happy with you never initiating any more? What is your plan if she never initiates or only very rarely? 

You might want to also add to your plan to not cooperate with her desire to cuddle each night. Just let her know that is to hard for you to cuddle her since it makes you want to have sex and just frustrates you knowing it isn't going to happen. You could be meeting her need for intimacy (cuddling is enough for her) and she might never initiate.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

I suggested this to pierrematoe in his thread, and I will suggest it to you as well. It may or may not be what you are looking for, but it won't hurt to look:

Divorce Busting® - Books on Marriage - First Chapter of Sex-Starved Marriage


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## Lionlady (Sep 12, 2012)

I don't think that duty sex is passionate. Maybe your wife wasn't sure if she wanted sex but then the fighting ignited something in her. Maybe she has anxiety about sex for some reason---not sure if she will be able to have an orgasm--pressure to perform....and that's making her nervous. 

There are so many reasons that a woman might not want sex. I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with whether you're a good husband or not, and it isn't necessarily to punish you. 

Or maybe it is...I don't know your relationship.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Abc123wife said:


> What happens if she is perfectly happy with you never initiating any more? What is your plan if she never initiates or only very rarely?
> 
> You might want to also add to your plan to not cooperate with her desire to cuddle each night. Just let her know that is to hard for you to cuddle her since it makes you want to have sex and just frustrates you knowing it isn't going to happen. You could be meeting her need for intimacy (cuddling is enough for her) and she might never initiate.


Believe me, I've asked myself what will happen next if nothing changes. Still looking for the answer on that one.

My plan does not include the cuddling or spending time watching her shows at night. I have a man cave and I intend to use it. For the past few months, I've given up the time I have to spend in there in order to spend time with her. 

I'm going to meet my needs, not hers. I'm not going to worry about whether or not i'm spending enough time with my wife. This is going to be all about me. Its really a shame to have to be this way, but something needs to change.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Believe me, I've asked myself what will happen next if nothing changes. Still looking for the answer on that one.
> 
> My plan does not include the cuddling or spending time watching her shows at night. I have a man cave and I intend to use it. For the past few months, I've given up the time I have to spend in there in order to spend time with her.
> 
> I'm going to meet my needs, not hers. I'm not going to worry about whether or not i'm spending enough time with my wife. This is going to be all about me. Its really a shame to have to be this way, but something needs to change.


Continue on this path like a runaway locomotive.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> I'm an affectionate guy. I got kind of mad the other day when she got upset that I tried to give her a peck on the lips. She called me needy. I guess she thinks of my affection as being needy.


Look at the thermastat thread. It is likely that you are the warmer partner and need to turn things down a bit.



> I know a big part of the problem is being beta. I just dont think about being alpha/beta anymore. I get caught up on being a good father/husband and do things my wife/kids want to do.


Look back at your behaviors when you were first dating her. They attracted her enough for her to marry you. What of those things have you stopped doing and pick up a couple of them.



> I'm really starting to think my wife doesnt want that. She wants to be led. When she asks what are we doing today, she doesnt want to her "i dont know, i dont care, or what do you want to do". I think she wants to hear "we are doing this, eating here, and going here".


Not uncommon. People want a partner, not a follower. In you desire to keep her happy, you sound like you have given her all the decision making, even in minor things. That can be exhausting. Giving your opinions and taking some (not all) of the decision making from her is the sign of a partner.



> I know shes the type of person who takes me for granted because I'm always "here". I have a feeling I'd be having sex all the time if she felt "threatened" by me leaving or if she felt unwanted by me. Some people just cant handle a good thing and they dont fear losing it. I think thats where my problem lies. I'm always there, I'm not going anywhere, and I'll always be here. No need to work for something that is given to you I guess.


That is good until it is bad. Being there for you partner through thick and thin is a wonderful trait. It can be a powerful part of marriage. But when one partner starts to abuse it, that previously wonderful trait becomes an incredible weakness. 

There is a difference between supporting her against the outside world, and supporting her own bad behavior.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I'm an affectionate guy. I got kind of mad the other day when she got upset that I tried to give her a peck on the lips. She called me needy. I guess she thinks of my affection as being needy.



Affection is not needly. Acting "kind of mad" when she doesn't respond makes it seem like you're needy, though. Stop acting "kind of mad." Walk away. Later, sit her down and call her out on her bad behavior.



hawx20 said:


> I dont plan to reject her advances. If she initiates I will respond. I just plan not to initiate anything, be it sex or affection.



What will happen if you retreat to your wall, and she to hers, and you end up in stand off? Because that is where my husband and I ended up for ten long years. I'm not saying that you should be the one to meet her needs, but I do think this issue should be a regular topic of conversation with your wife. Make sure she is clear on WHY you are pulling back. Make it clear that you are not cool with a sexless marriage, but that you can go on with hobbies, interests, your career, your social life, etc. without it. Don't cede control of your happiness and self-worth to her--it's the ultimate beta move. If she brings your new behavior up, talk to her about it calmly. Don't give ground, but don't be evasive or coy about why you have redirected your energies to yourself. 



hawx20 said:


> I know a big part of the problem is being beta. *I just dont think about being alpha/beta anymore.* I get caught up on being a good father/husband and do things my wife/kids want to do.
> 
> I'm really starting to think my wife doesnt want that. *She wants to be led.* When she asks what are we doing today, she doesnt want to her "i dont know, i dont care, or what do you want to do". I think she wants to hear "we are doing this, eating here, and going here".


Nail hits head. 

Being a good father and husband is different than being a desirable lover. Hey, I appreciate the nice guy in my husband, I just don't want to f*ck that guy. The guy I want in bed is the guy who stands up to my sh!t and who doesn't leave all the decisions up to me. The guy I want isn't apologetic about who he is, he has opinions and doesn't care if I approve or not. He takes up the space he deserves in this marriage. He's a person in his own right, outside of our relationship. 



hawx20 said:


> I know shes the type of person who takes me for granted because I'm always "here". I have a feeling I'd be having sex all the time if she felt "threatened" by me leaving or if she felt unwanted by me. Some people just cant handle a good thing and they dont fear losing it. I think thats where my problem lies. I'm always there, I'm not going anywhere, and I'll always be here. No need to work for something that is given to you I guess.


Feeling threatened wouldn't have done it for me--I'd have let him have a divorce without changing my behavior if he'd threatened me with one. What did it for me was him becoming desirable again when he started to look for ways to focus on himself instead of moping about us. 

Not saying threats of divorce won't work for some women. God knows we had issues in our marriage beyond lack of sex, so divorce was always in my mind as something that would give us both some relief. If, as you say, your have a happy marriage outside of this issue with sex, then perhaps knowing she might lose you over this will prompt her to change. I'm always skeptical of the tactic, though, for although she might change her behavior, it is a different matter to actually up her desire for you. Still, standing your ground is a sexy move . . . 

Um, here's a personal question for you--does your wife like to be dominated in bed? If so, I think she's more likely to need alpha behavior from you in order to feel desire.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Believe me, I've asked myself what will happen next if nothing changes. Still looking for the answer on that one.
> 
> My plan does not include the cuddling or spending time watching her shows at night. I have a man cave and I intend to use it. For the past few months, I've given up the time I have to spend in there in order to spend time with her.
> 
> I'm going to meet my needs, not hers. I'm not going to worry about whether or not i'm spending enough time with my wife. This is going to be all about me. Its really a shame to have to be this way, but something needs to change.


At this point, that seems the only way to go if she isn't showing any concern for your needs.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> _I feel at this point its either accept things the way they are, or divorce._


Yes. This is true. So which do you want to do? 



hawx20 said:


> *I just cant imagine putting my kids through a divorce because lack of sex.* Just really dont know what to do anymore. I'm really tired of having to argue for sex, and even more _tired of feeling like a scumbag_ afterwards.....


Obviously this is has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with a married man being _*made to feel like a scumbag *_ by his wife through sex. 

Sex here is just the medium through which the troubles in your marriage reveal themselves.

A woman's willingness to engage sexually (or unwillingness), reveals a tremendous amount about how she feels about her husband and the marriage. And there are different degrees of being willing and unwilling too...and those different permutations each reveal the unique dynamics underlying a given marriage.

Some other thoughts---

Guys are attracted by the sexual appeal of a woman. And women are attracted by the power of men.

*If you do not come across as powerful to your wife, she can not feel attracted to you.
*
So, when you threaten to leave, you suddenly become "powerful" in her eyes...you have the power to take away the life she's accustomed to and wants to maintain. So---I don't doubt that there is indeed genuine passion felt in her when you two have sex after threatening to leave.

You don't like this because it feels like a game and you want her to love and WANT you for love's sake and just for being your wonderful self...not because you're scaring her into. 

But the thing is---we're a 'human' built atop an 'animal' and alot of our drives are still primitively motivated. 

Men NEED sex more than women (as a general rule)...every facet of history indicates that this has been true since the dawn of time...( I mean just think---Male Prostitutes...service other MEN---not women)

The fact that Men want sex more than women actually works as a tremendous equalizer between the two genders...it gives women a power they would otherwise never had had, as women are much weaker physically

It gave cavemen a powerful incentive to protect and provide for women---who otherwise would've been just a complete burden, in the whole 'survival of the fittest' game that drives the world. It’s truly interesting for me to think about what would’ve happened to women if men didn’t really care all that much about sex…really, in order for women to have been provided for so tremendously men had to REALLY REALLY care about sex

But now we're not cavemen. We're 'civilized'. We're genteel. We write beautiful poetry, paint lovely paintings and exchange lovely wedding vows all of which reflect this innate sense we all have that there is a 'higher form of love' something that transcends the game-playing based on our more animal nature. 

Unfortunately, while all of us can sense and know that there is a nobler way to live—very few of us live on that plane. 

So can you live with the fact that you’re going to need to be POWERFUL in front of your wife if you want her to have sex with you? And that this is going to feel like a game to you somewhat. 

Can you accept that when you’re trying to appeal to her sex drive, you’re appealing to the animal-side of her---that it’s animal-attractant?

And that basically involves TRULY refusing to stay in a sexless marriage (i.e. YOU WILL WALK if she sexually rejects you constantly)---if it’s just a hollow threat it won’t work…you have to really mean it. 

So going back to your question---are you willing accept this or are you willing to divorce over it? 

That’s your choice

But I can guarantee you--the only path that leads you to a sexual relationship again (whether that’s ultimately with your wife or with someone new if you two do divorce) is the path that says lack of sex is a deal-breaker for me, and I’m really willing to divorce over it. 

And you’ll see---that’s because fundamentally it’s the path of power...and POWER is the very thing that attracts Women(and because of this "high reward"---it’s also the *much scarier path*)


Sadly Life doesn’t seem to want to make anything easy for us…. 

Best of Luck


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

If you figure out the answer let me know.

Welcome to LD-Wife hell.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

I can't quite give the OP advice. His problems in his marriage appear too complex for that. I would like to pose a couple questions to the board that might pull out some insight via the answers:

-- if a wife is not enthralled either with sex or physical affection with her husband, then why even share a bed? Would the husband simply sleeping elsewhere in the house start to show the wife a little of that 'irresistible indifference' that could re-awaken her sensual self?

-- what if the husband starts to cultivate "friendships" with other women? To show more independence from his wife, Nothing like demonstrating that a guy is attractive and interesting to other women.

I'm not sure if either of these would have the desired effect, but the logic of "standing up to her"would seem to apply as much to these as to other things suggested. Certainly less drastic than divorce.......

I suspect these kinds of marital issues might defy such simple solutions, but I could be wrong. Human emotions have a lot to do with human traits (vice animal). I think. Those emotions can mix in with animal instincts, making human 'instincts' look quite different in comparison. IMHO


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Day one went perfect. Now i'm not saying my problems are solved after one day, but she responded better than I hoped to my new ways.

I'm usually a playful guy, but not yesterday. I never initiated communication or contact. Responses to her were short and firm. I was kind of surprised how she "fell in line" and just went with what I wanted.

I didnt ask how her day went and I actually paid very little attention to her the entire night. The hardest thing was trying not to have my new behavior come off as being mad or frustrated. I was calm, more assertive with her and the kids, and never came off as frustrated or upset.

She was giving me much more affection than what she normally does. I pretty much showed no interest in her whatsoever the entire night. After the kids were in bed I spent the rest of my time in my man cave. When it was time for bed I went straight the the bedroom, got in bed, and was ready to fall asleep. 

Much to my surprise, she initiated and I acted like I was reluctantly going along with it. It was much better than usual passion wise.

For all I know, last night could of just been a fluke. Time will tell i guess. I have to admit it did feel good to go back into an alpha role. I've always been a leader and a fighter and my wife is more passive. I've kind of let the leader in me take a back seat to the guy who is trying to be the best husband ever.

Like GettingIt stated earlier, 

"Being a good father and husband is different than being a desirable lover. Hey, I appreciate the nice guy in my husband, I just don't want to f*ck that guy. The guy I want in bed is the guy who stands up to my sh!t and who doesn't leave all the decisions up to me."

I know I have definitely taken the good father/husband and made it a priority over a desirable lover. Lets hope yesterday was a start of things to come. Also starting to think about how I am a big reason of why passion has fallen. I need to get back to being they guy she chased, not the guy she has around her finger.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

nuclearnightmare said:


> -- if a wife is not enthralled either with sex or physical affection with her husband, then why even share a bed? Would the husband simply sleeping elsewhere in the house start to show the wife a little of that 'irresistible indifference' that could re-awaken her sensual self?


I think retreating to the guest room, or the couch, shows more weakness than indifference. Why should one's wife be able to kick one out of the master bedroom?



> -- what if the husband starts to cultivate "friendships" with other women? To show more independence from his wife, Nothing like demonstrating that a guy is attractive and interesting to other women.


This can definitely work. The issue here is walking the thin line between being attractive to other women, and being untrustworthy around other women. Other women noticing a husband can certainly jump start a wife's libido. However, a husband actively flirting with other women can override that attraction with fear of abandonment.

A woman worried that another woman may seduce her well-intentioned husband will be turned on. A woman worried that her husband is actively looking to stray will be turned off.



> I suspect these kinds of marital issues might defy such simple solutions, but I could be wrong. Human emotions have a lot to do with human traits (vice animal). I think. Those emotions can mix in with animal instincts, making human 'instincts' look quite different in comparison. IMHO


Marital solutions are frequently simple. Humans aren't nearly as complicated as we like to think we are.

Good luck.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I think retreating to the guest room, or the couch, shows more weakness than indifference. Why should one's wife be able to kick one out of the master bedroom?



I'm not retreating or being kicked out of the bedroom. Truth be told, I have that room because thats where I want to spend my free time. I had been making the decision to give up my free time doing something i really enjoy just to spend time with my wife doing what she enjoys. 

Now i've decided to simply taking care of my wants first. Believe me, I'd much rather be watching sports or playing a game vs watching some drama or reality show.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lifetime Movie Network is the 666 mark of spousal television...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hawx,
Your wife likes to 'chase' you more than you have been letting her. And that is why you got the response you did. 

Don't expect her to keep a constant stream of chasing. You can be friendly and banter with her playfully but don't hug or kiss her. I am guessing that your 'playfulness' is often you touching her, maybe when she isn't ready, is feeling crowded. 

You can walk in the door, give her a big smile and:
- go get changed 
- hug one of the kids 
- rough house with one of the kids (pillow fight if age appropriate)

Use body language - smiling - eye contact - more and talk less to her. And don't let it all be about her day. You can and should ask about her day, but she should/must ask about yours. 

Try to create a little playful 'tension' by being difficult in a playful manner. And if she is the type of wife who pokes at you a bit, instead of the normal response just go with: that is very naughty, keep it up and I will have to punish you.






hawx20 said:


> Day one went perfect. Now i'm not saying my problems are solved after one day, but she responded better than I hoped to my new ways.
> 
> I'm usually a playful guy, but not yesterday. I never initiated communication or contact. Responses to her were short and firm. I was kind of surprised how she "fell in line" and just went with what I wanted.
> 
> ...


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Hawx,
> Your wife likes to 'chase' you more than you have been letting her. And that is why you got the response you did.
> 
> I am guessing that your 'playfulness' is often you touching her, maybe when she isn't ready, is feeling crowded.


I think you are correct with both statements.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Hawx,
> Your wife likes to 'chase' you more than you have been letting her. And that is why you got the response you did.
> 
> Don't expect her to keep a constant stream of chasing. You can be friendly and banter with her playfully but don't hug or kiss her. I am guessing that your 'playfulness' is often you touching her, maybe when she isn't ready, is feeling crowded.


I can't emphasize enough how true this is. I HATE to feel physically crowded; most specifically, I notice that I need extra space the week before my period. I've gotten better at communicating this to my husband, and he's responded well. I'd suggest trying to keep track of how your wife's cycle affects her behavior towards you and towards sex. Better yet, ask HER to track it and share the info with you. 



MEM11363 said:


> Try to create a little playful 'tension' by being difficult in a playful manner. And if she is the type of wife who pokes at you a bit, instead of the normal response just go with: that is very naughty, keep it up and I will have to punish you.


My h used to get sort of pissy when I'd poke at him (which I readily admit I do a lot.) Lately he's been giving me a whack on the asss instead, which straightens me right up and stops any negative tension from even getting started. Granted, that might not go over well with all women, but I find it rather satisfying.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Believe me, I've asked myself what will happen next if nothing changes. Still looking for the answer on that one.
> 
> My plan does not include the cuddling or spending time watching her shows at night. I have a man cave and I intend to use it. For the past few months, I've given up the time I have to spend in there in order to spend time with her.
> 
> I'm going to meet my needs, not hers. I'm not going to worry about whether or not i'm spending enough time with my wife. This is going to be all about me. Its really a shame to have to be this way, but something needs to change.


Retreat to the man cave works...I am a musician and when I go there to play my guitar, she has on many occasion come downstairs naked and ready...begging and pleading for sex is a HUGE turn off for women...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mrs. MEM is just like this. I can read her easy on this, why she melts into me when I hug her from behind. 




GettingIt said:


> I can't emphasize enough how true this is. I HATE to feel physically crowded; most specifically, I notice that I need extra space the week before my period. I've gotten better at communicating this to my husband, and he's responded well. I'd suggest trying to keep track of how your wife's cycle affects her behavior towards you and towards sex. Better yet, ask HER to track it and share the info with you.
> 
> 
> 
> My h used to get sort of pissy when I'd poke at him (which I readily admit I do a lot.) Lately he's been giving me a whack on the asss instead, which straightens me right up and stops any negative tension from even getting started. Granted, that might not go over well with all women, but I find it rather satisfying.


Dammit - I KNOW this works like magic. Instead I have been getting pissy. Just blew up 4 days that way. She needed a sharp smack on Friday and I gave her pissy. Ugh. Fvck me. Hate when I do this. 

Thanks for the reminder.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> I'm not retreating or being kicked out of the bedroom. Truth be told, I have that room because thats where I want to spend my free time. I had been making the decision to give up my free time doing something i really enjoy just to spend time with my wife doing what she enjoys.
> 
> Now i've decided to simply taking care of my wants first. Believe me, I'd much rather be watching sports or playing a game vs watching some drama or reality show.


Spending more of your free time apart from her, in your man cave, is fine. But you shouldn't sleep in your man cave. Sleeping, dressing, showering, and shaving should be done in your master bedroom. Ceding one area of the house for her to use 24x7 and claiming a different area of the house for you to use 24x7 won't help.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Spending more of your free time apart from her, in your man cave, is fine. But you shouldn't sleep in your man cave. Sleeping, dressing, showering, and shaving should be done in your master bedroom. Ceding one area of the house for her to use 24x7 and claiming a different area of the house for you to use 24x7 won't help.



Oh no no no....i'm not doing anything like that. I basically have about 2 hours of actual free time once my child is in bed. Thats the time I'm spending in there. 

Normally its a choice between being in there doing what I want and being upstairs with her watching whatever version of the housewives is on or something on HGTV. Whatevers showing, I have no interest in, I'm just up there to be with her.

Lately, I've been giving up my time in my room to be with her. I'm no longer doing that. Once my baby is in bed, I head straight for my room and stay there.

The past 2 days have been interesting. I think she is starting to sense a difference in me. I'm usually touchy feely with her especially giving her a slap on the butt. I havent initiated any contact with her and its been pretty tough because I want to. I have noticed that she is doing little things that she never did trying to get me to initiate contact. Shes trying subtle little things that she hasnt really done before but i'm holding strong.

Again, inside I hate having to be this way. I want to hold her and love on her. Its such a shame I have to "act" this way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hawx,
When she presses you to resume watching tv with her, and she will, I have a suggestion. Cut your weeks in half:
- half the week you do your thing in your room
- the remaining half the week gets split in half again:
1. You watching tv with her
2. The two of you doing something physical together: walking, playing a sport, etc. 

When watching tv does she lie next to you? 

QUOTE=hawx20;5210210]Oh no no no....i'm not doing anything like that. I basically have about 2 hours of actual free time once my child is in bed. Thats the time I'm spending in there. 

Normally its a choice between being in there doing what I want and being upstairs with her watching whatever version of the housewives is on or something on HGTV. Whatevers showing, I have no interest in, I'm just up there to be with her.

Lately, I've been giving up my time in my room to be with her. I'm no longer doing that. Once my baby is in bed, I head straight for my room and stay there.

The past 2 days have been interesting. I think she is starting to sense a difference in me. I'm usually touchy feely with her especially giving her a slap on the butt. I havent initiated any contact with her and its been pretty tough because I want to. I have noticed that she is doing little things that she never did trying to get me to initiate contact. Shes trying subtle little things that she hasnt really done before but i'm holding strong.

Again, inside I hate having to be this way. I want to hold her and love on her. Its such a shame I have to "act" this way.[/QUOTE]


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> Again, inside I hate having to be this way. I want to hold her and love on her. Its such a shame I have to "act" this way.


It's unfortunate that some men are "naturals" that can attract women with nothing more than their base personalities. However, most men aren't naturals. Most men have to do work. And most women require work.

Women are like cars. You may think it's unfair that you have to change your car's oil, rotate the tires, and do a lot of routine maintenance. But if you want to have a good experience with your car, you will do the required maintenance. If you refuse to do routine maintenance, then your car will give you nothing but trouble. So do the maintenance.

After a while, you get used to it and it becomes much less trouble and much less forced. It just becomes natural to deal with your wife the way she needs you to deal with her.

Good luck.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Again, inside I hate having to be this way. I want to hold her and love on her. Its such a shame I have to "act" this way.


Each time you've mentioned this, a little alarm sounds in my head because: 1) it sounds like you're building resentment and 2) you are looking at this as something that is unnecessary

If you can't see this as part of a bigger picture of successfully rebuilding intimacy with your wife, I question how it's going to work out, long-term. That is, are you in danger of reverting to your old ways once this pattern yields results? 

Instead of seeing it as an "act," view it as doing your part in keeping her desire alive. You expect her to do her part to fulfill your sexual needs, right? Do you think that won't take some effort on her part, some understanding of what you find sexually fulfilling and desirable? Do you think that SHE should be let off the hook with "I just want him to hang with me while I watch my TV? Why can't he see that?" 

You do your part FOR HER and she does her part FOR YOU so that you arrive at mutually satisfying behavior. If you are both just sitting on your hands expecting the other person to change to reflect your idea of what is "good lovin'," then the train ain't leaving the station.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Dammit - I KNOW this works like magic. Instead I have been getting pissy. Just blew up 4 days that way. She needed a sharp smack on Friday and I gave her pissy. Ugh. Fvck me. Hate when I do this.
> 
> Thanks for the reminder.


Well go correct it--festering pissy is the worst. 

(Say I, stewing over my husband's pissy fit of this morning. I want my sexy back. )


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. 



QUOTE=GettingIt;5211322]Each time you've mentioned this, a little alarm sounds in my head because: 1) it sounds like you're building resentment and 2) you are looking at this as something that is unnecessary

If you can't see this as part of a bigger picture of successfully rebuilding intimacy with your wife, I question how it's going to work out, long-term. That is, are you in danger of reverting to your old ways once this pattern yields results? 

Instead of seeing it as an "act," view it as doing your part in keeping her desire alive. You expect her to do her part to fulfill your sexual needs, right? Do you think that won't take some effort on her part, some understanding of what you find sexually fulfilling and desirable? Do you think that SHE should be let off the hook with "I just want him to hang with me while I watch my TV? Why can't he see that?" 

You do your part FOR HER and she does her part FOR YOU so that you arrive at mutually satisfying behavior. If you are both just sitting on your hands expecting the other person to change to reflect your idea of what is "good lovin'," then the train ain't leaving the station.[/QUOTE]


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> It's unfortunate that some men are "naturals" that can attract women with nothing more than their base personalities. However, most men aren't naturals. Most men have to do work. And most women require work.
> 
> Women are like cars. You may think it's unfair that you have to change your car's oil, rotate the tires, and do a lot of routine maintenance. But if you want to have a good experience with your car, you will do the required maintenance. If you refuse to do routine maintenance, then your car will give you nothing but trouble. So do the maintenance.
> 
> ...


And women need to learn the same about their men. Took me long enough to learn it, but I've gotten so much better at the Feeding and Care of Husbands. It just isn't always intuitive. We gnash our teeth about "jumping through hoops." But it really is about understanding needs that are (sometimes radically) different than our own. Truly, the "required maintenance" does become second nature after awhile, and the results it yields can actually make the process itself _fun. _ When the fun shines through as enthusiasm, your partner will appreciate it even more.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. 

Hawx,
That does not mean your needs don't matter. It does mean that crowding someone 'feels bad to them', just as bad as being rejected feels to you. 

So you find a balance. For instance it is a mistake for the more physically affectionate spouse to:
- Sit in a room with their partner, with no contact 
- While watching a show that only the 'less' affectionate partner likes

If they want some low touch/no touch quality time, at minimum they find a show you BOTH like. 


QUOTE=GettingIt;5211698]And women need to learn the same about their men. Took me long enough to learn it, but I've gotten so much better at the Feeding and Care of Husbands. It just isn't always intuitive. We gnash our teeth about "jumping through hoops." But it really is about understanding needs that are (sometimes radically) different than our own. Truly, the "required maintenance" does become second nature after awhile, and the results it yields can actually make the process itself _fun. _ When the fun shines through as enthusiasm, your partner will appreciate it even more.[/QUOTE]


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I guess because this change is so new to me it feels awkward.

I'm trying to walk that fine line between being the great husband and being the man she wants to chase. I do admit to crowding her at times and I think I need to take the less is more approach.

I guess my biggest problem is I figured the whole chase thing ended with marriage. I thought being the greatest dad/husband was what needed to be done. I guess some people need to feel "challenged". My wife has never had the slightest reason to wonder "why isnt he into me as much?", "where is he going/who is he with?" or "does he still love me?'. 

I guess, in short, I have made it to easy for her and need to let her know it requires work for my love too.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> I guess my biggest problem is I figured the whole chase thing ended with marriage. I thought being the greatest dad/husband was what needed to be done.


That's a common mistake. Part of the problem is that our post-feminist culture has sold the idea of endless courtship to couples as the new normal. With no-fault divorce, people need to satisfy their spouses ... or else.

On the other hand, you changed. You were a certain way. Your wife fell in love with you. She married you. And then you decided to celebrate your success by changing into a different type of man. That's not a recipe for continued success.

If you went on a job interview and your prospective employer told you he was looking for exactly your skill set and offered you a job, would you then change your behaviors so that you were less suited for the job? Of course not.


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## MrHappyHat (Oct 24, 2012)

The chase never ends. C'est la vie.

Oh, she jumped your bones the other day because you made her emotional. You got her riled up, she came 'alive' and then decided that you were on the menu.

Work the lovey-dovey beta to build trust and a connection.

Get her riled up to get wildly forked in bed. 

Look up 'push-pull' in terms of Game.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I guess my biggest problem is I figured the whole chase thing ended with marriage.


Careful now, you're in danger of being accused of the dreaded "bait and switch."


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Again, inside I hate having to be this way. I want to hold her and love on her. Its such a shame I have to "act" this way.


If she responded positively to your change which feels uncomfortable to you then you're dealing with basic incompatibility.

I mean it's nice as an experiment for a short while but to restrain yourself for months, years so that she wouldn't feel crowded doesn't sound like happy marriage to me.

If an effort has to be made on a regular basis to maintain intimacy that means that you're incompatible as a couple. Intimacy should be effortless; if she loves to be chased then you should love to chase. Not sure if you can learn such a thing, not sure.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Just an update. No sex after that first day but I havent been in the mood much either. Been really tired all week. I'm really starting to think I will end up checking out of this marriage. 

Last night we got into a huge argument that started out from a simple "yes or no" questions about a gift for the kids. I asked her a very simple question and her ugly attitude just turned me into the Hulk. She is very immature and can be so frustrating to have a simple conversation with when shes in her mood. 

I really hate the person she makes me be sometimes and I'm starting to lose interest in her sexually. 

I'm a good man, an excellent husband, and a great father. I dont give a damn about alpha/beta. I take care of my family and have their best interest at heart. I will never cheat on my wife, which is also cheating on my family. For as long as I live I will never stop trying to give my family the world. If this is how she is going to repay me, then the hell with her. Any woman would be lucky to have a husband like me. Just my luck though, I picked a damn dud.

PS, yeah, i am a little frustrated today


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> Just an update. No sex after that first day but I havent been in the mood much either. Been really tired all week. I'm really starting to think I will end up checking out of this marriage.
> 
> Last night we got into a huge argument that started out from a simple "yes or no" questions about a gift for the kids. I asked her a very simple question and her ugly attitude just turned me into the Hulk. She is very immature and can be so frustrating to have a simple conversation with when shes in her mood.
> 
> I really hate the person she makes me be sometimes and I'm starting to lose interest in her sexually.


Huge problem right there and it is on you. She does not make you into anything. You act as the man you want to be, regardless of her actions (or anyone's). So if her ugly attitude is preventing a reasonable conversation, you tell her you will be happy to talk when she is ready to have a civil conversation, then walk away. You blowing up and not controlling yourself is on you.



> I'm a good man, an excellent husband, and a great father. I dont give a damn about alpha/beta. I take care of my family and have their best interest at heart. I will never cheat on my wife, which is also cheating on my family. For as long as I live I will never stop trying to give my family the world. If this is how she is going to repay me, then the hell with her. Any woman would be lucky to have a husband like me. Just my luck though, I picked a damn dud.
> 
> PS, yeah, i am a little frustrated today


Nothing wrong with your feelings. But you have to control how you act on them. Blowing up like that shows her that (1) you are weak and lack control and (2) she is in control. You are not going to get much respect with that.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Yeah I know, and I felt more frustrated because I let her get to me. Do you have any idea what its like to argue with a walking contradiction? I swear every other sentence is a contradiction to the previous sentence.


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## MrHappyHat (Oct 24, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> Yeah I know, and I felt more frustrated because I let her get to me. Do you have any idea what its like to argue with a walking contradiction? I swear every other sentence is a contradiction to the previous sentence.


Look up 'Amused Mastery'. 

When she opens up her yap and starts spewing bile your way, don't look at the situation as high-drama, look at it as comedy. Her histrionic invectives, saying one thing and then contradicting it in the next sentence, re-writing history or the projections or the... well everything.

Once you realize that it's actually funny, then you'll be able to laugh. Once you can laugh and be confident about it, then she loses a lot of her power over you.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> Yeah I know, and I felt more frustrated because I let her get to me. Do you have any idea what its like to argue with a walking contradiction? I swear every other sentence is a contradiction to the previous sentence.


Then don't. As a wise computer once said, sometimes the only winning move is not to play.

So when she starts to be this way, laugh it off, tell her you will be happy to discuss when she wants to do so in a civil and adult manner, and then walk away. 

Stay in control of you.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Just an update. No sex after that first day but I havent been in the mood much either. Been really tired all week. I'm really starting to think I will end up checking out of this marriage.
> 
> Last night we got into a huge argument that started out from a simple "yes or no" questions about a gift for the kids. I asked her a very simple question and her ugly attitude just turned me into the Hulk. She is very immature and can be so frustrating to have a simple conversation with when shes in her mood.
> 
> ...


You're letting her push your buttons. I agree with TallGuy--you are in control of your reaction. 

It's not that I don't sympathize with you--I do. My husband could have written the above any number of times during our marriage. But consider this: the "ugly attitude" and "immaturity" you see are rooted in something beyond her being a b*tch. Whether she wants to come clean and admit this or not, she's punishing you for something. She's not happy with the dynamic in your relationship, either. 

You're still seeing being desirable to her as an unnecessary game. If you don't want to be desirable to her, your sex life isn't going to improve and it's very likely you won't be the only one checking out of the marriage. 

You are back to standing on your wall, and she's still standing on hers. What about individual counseling? Have you considered finding a therapist to help you navigate trying to "reset" the dynamic in your marriage. I can't tell you how instrumental it was to helping me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Do a summary 180 with as little conversation as possible, while making sure to berate her for anything she does wrong. Keep doing so until she realizes her approach is wrong - as is yours.

Counseling, MMSL or NMMNG type activities have their uses but after a while do what you must for yourself. If she sticks around then she is interested in saving the marriage, if not then stick a fork in it.

For the next few days my wife has time off work so I will let her do what she enjoys, clean the house. It was not my idea to buy a huge house, so it's on her to keep it clean... But then we're talking about a person who may think me a deviant for suggesting we go out for a cup of coffee and talk... So I'm probably biased.

A nap is best


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> Do you have any idea what its like to argue with a walking contradiction?


Yes, I know exactly what that's like. Because I married a woman. It pretty much comes with the territory.

Women (in general) are emotional and irrational. They are driven by emotions and rationalize their behavior. You can either accept that, or you can look for a dude to marry. FWIW, I'm not saying that behavior driven by emotions is even a bad thing. It just exists. And it's somewhere between useless and harmful to spend your energy b!tching about it.

You still seem to be trying to debate your wife into sex. It will never work. You're still trying to change her. It will never work. Change yourself.



The Matrix said:


> Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon - that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth.
> Neo: What truth?
> Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
> Neo: There is no spoon?
> Spoon boy: Then you will see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

From this thread:


hawx20 said:


> Just found out my wife has been cheating on me for the past year....I'm numb and have no clue what to do....my god....somebody help me with advice


Well, stating the obvious, here's the answer why LD. She's giving it to someone else and being faithful to the other man.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

SCARY how this stuff ends up the same time after time after time.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Thats all right. End of the day, I will absolutely destroy his family life too. He has a 6 month old son. He was having sex with mine while his wife was pregnant.

My **** wife will be alone. Hell, I told her they were perfect for each other. 2 dumbass losers. Her own father doesnt even want to see or speak to her right now, her son (the OMs son) is pissed off at her and never wants to see his sperm donor father. My young daughter will one day know her mother was a **** and her father did everything to give her the best life possible.

What did I lose? A lying ****. I deserve better. I will find better.


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