# Male HD / Female LD vs. Female HD / Male LD



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There have been a lot of posts here about High Desire / Low desire couples, some with the male as HD, some with the female. 

Do people think the situation is basically the same, and that good advice for one situation is also good advice for the other? Or are there fundamental differences based on the genders. From posts the situations sound very similar to me. 



This is absolutely not intended to be a male vs female, "who is worse" thread, or to argue about which is more common. Both situations happen. The question is whether people who have experienced on situation are qualified to comment on the other.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

My first marriage of exactly 18 months I was LD and she was HD.

My second marriage of 25 years I am HD and my wife is LD.

I think it's all situation based. Something did not click with my first wife and she ended up repulsing me sexually. I dig my current wife yet turned her off with my anger and lack of sexual skills.

What worked in my second marriage to turn my wife around would NOT have turned me around in my first because the SITUATION was very different.

My 2 cents.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

The male sexual response involves a unique refractory period that females do not experience. This means that LD males forcing themselves to try and increase the frequency of sex for a female that is HD is more problematic than when the genders are reversed. 

A male forcing himself to orgasm will get a strong dose of hormones making his spouse highly undesirable sexually so that he can recover the bodily fluids needed to produce more semen as well as the brain chemistry for experiencing another orgasm. Some men recover very fast (matter of minutes), while others take much longer (couple of days). 

It is also documented from the research completed by Masters and Johnson that females are capable of experiencing a sexual response far superior than males because they do not contend with the refractory period. So for an HD female that is fully aware of how to enjoy her sexual response to the fullest, it is simply not possible for the average male to share that same experience (there are perhaps a few rare excpetions of HD males with no refractory period).

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I thought the refractory period was typically <<1 day so while it may be a limit for people who want sex multiple times per day, it is less of an issue for people with a more typical frequency of sex.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think the two are different, but there are some overlaps when it comes to issues of attraction or resentment influencing libido. I think that in general (and aside from attraction/resentment), it is easier and more probable to find a solution to an LD man's lack of libido. Often, it's a simple matter of testosterone levels or - more difficult - dealing with obesity or other medical issues, and sometimes ED. Psychological issues are also difficult to resolve for either sex. And in general, I think LD women's relative lack of libido are more complex to resolve, as there are more complex hormonal, psychological, and experiential factors involved (including a higher incidence of past abuse).

The end result for both is the same: lack of satisfying sex. IMO, if this is a problem for the relationship, spend a year or so trying to resolve it, and then move on if you can't.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

One difference, a male with low desire may lead to performance issues that would actually impede the sex act (unable to get or maintain an erection). On the flipside, most females (I would think?) could still have sex (not taking into consideration whether she is actually into it or enjoying it).


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm not convinced this is that different. A man is not interested in sex is physically capable of doing things other than PIV to please a woman, just as a woman who is not interested in sex is capable of physically pleasing a man.

Neither of these is desirable to many partners, and many people find sexual acts without desire to be unpleasant. 



EllisRedding said:


> One difference, a male with low desire may lead to performance issues that would actually impede the sex act (unable to get or maintain an erection). On the flipside, most females (I would think?) could still have sex (not taking into consideration whether she is actually into it or enjoying it).


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The part that struck me as similar is the behaviors. The LD partner finding a wide range of reasons / excuses for avoiding sex on any particular occasion, while often claiming to enjoy sex in general. Also the pattern of the HD often doing absolutely anything sexual for their partner while the LD limits their activities to the few things that they actively want - resulting in very one-sided sex on the rare occasions when it does happen. 

Another pattern though is the "selfish" hd, who cares about their own pleasure, but not their partners. This may be much more common for men as HDs than for women. I haven't seen a lot of examples of HD, but selfish women, but maybe I've missed them.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> I'm not convinced this is that different. A man is not interested in sex is physically capable of doing things other than PIV to please a woman, just as a woman who is not interested in sex is capable of physically pleasing a man.
> 
> Neither of these is desirable to many partners, and many people find sexual acts without desire to be unpleasant.


I believe it is different TBH. It is not about pleasing someone, but I would think that for most PIV is still a part of the sex act. If a guy can't get it up or can't keep an erection that means oral on him is out and so is PIV.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

uhtred said:


> The LD partner finding a wide range of reasons / excuses for avoiding sex on any particular occasion, while often claiming to enjoy sex in general.


They will claim to enjoy the sex because they do not want to hurt the other partners feelings.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What I've seen is 3 sorts of situations:

1). The HD is selfish, sexually, maybe other ways, and then is surprised that the LD doesn't want sex. I've seen descriptions of this where the male is HD, but not the reverse. This could be a difference in posting rates, or maybe as simple as that a wider variety of things are pleasurable to men. Unless the selfishness ends, this won't get better. 

2). The LD has lost, or doesn't have interest in their HD partner, but is still interested in others, and this loss of interest is not due to the HD's bad / selfish behavior. I've seen this described with both male and female HDs. Sometimes there are things the HD can change to improve this, sometimes it is innate "I just don't find you attractive". 

3). The LD has little interest in sex of any sort and nothing the HD can do will change this. I've seen this with male and female HDs. Often the HD goes crazy trying to "fix" the problem when there is no fix. This rarely get better, occasionally the LD will finally realize how much they are hurting their partner, but usually not. 


I distinguish 1 and 2 by whether what the LD wants is "reasonable". IMHO wanting your partner to be a generous passionate lover is completely reasonable, but wanting them to be a completely different person, or to not age physically is not reasonable. 


There is of course a continuum between these, and people who are in one of these situations may have difficulty recognizing that other people are in a different situation. Since I'm in #3 (I claim), that colors my view of these situations.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

I have to think that the primary cause of sex-starved marriages are due to one partner having spontaneous desire and the other responsive desire.

Despite the current cultural imperative to insist that men and women are exactly the same, I think it's clear that (due to testosterone) men tend to have spontaneous desire and women responsive desire (especially once past the "new relationship" phase). A woman in an LTR who has responsive desire may well have spontaneous desire in a new relationship but I believe this to be due to the "newness" of the relationship, not a sudden change from one type of desire to another. 

In a good relationship, a selfless person with responsive desire will put a effort into working with their responsive desire for the good of the relationship and because they love their partner and care about their happiness.

In a bad relationship, or with a selfish responsive desire partner, they will not be willing to put in the effort. They don't care about their partner's happiness (because their partner is an a$$hole or they are selfish).

On the HD's part, they need to be willing and able to turn their partner's responsive desire into actual desire. They need to make sex as good for their partner as possible and be appreciative of their efforts. Someone willing to work with their responsive desire may lose their motivation is sex is never good for them or their partner is unappreciative.

If a woman is LD, they can give oral and receive oral and (perhaps with outside lubrication) have PIV sex. They may not have an orgasm every time, but it's all do-able.

On the other hand, without an erection a male LD can give oral, maybe receive oral (on a flaccid penis) but not engage in PIV. Social expectations are that men always want sex and will always be ready to go. Men need erections. The pressure to achieve on can lead to performance anxiety, making the problem worse. Women may perceive the man's lack of an erection as there being something wrong with her. It's also generally thought that women "need time" to get in the mood while the general expectation for men is to have a hard-on the moment the woman starts undressing. In short, the need for erections vastly complicates sex for an LD or responsive desire male. 

For men, if you can't count on performing or performing well, then you're going to naturally start trying to avoid the activity which leads to failure. It takes a lot of effort to go out on the basketball court and throw up shots when you fail often and end up disappointing your teammates. It's also a lot easier to bury your head in the sand and blame others for your problems. And, sure, the guy can perform oral on the woman but even those women who only orgasm via oral sex seem to put a significant value on PIV as well. 

In short, I think that HD Man/ LD Woman situations are more common and easier to deal with (although hardly easy). Sometimes just destabilizing the relationship can spark the "new relationship" spontaneous desire.

As for HD Woman / LD Man, I find it hard to imagine it ever being solved.

I'm sure that many times withholding sex is used as a power and control issue. However, it's a lot easier to withhold sex if one has responsive desire that spontaneous desire. If an HD man is withholding sex from his wife, then (as in elegirl's situation) you'd think he has to be cheating.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> They will claim to enjoy the sex because they do not want to hurt the other partners feelings.


This contention depends on the belief that everyone always is willing to expend significant energy to do things that they enjoy.

I see very little evidence that this is true.

I believe it is very possible to enjoy doing something but not get around to doing it very often.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

uhtred said:


> There have been a lot of posts here about High Desire / Low desire couples, some with the male as HD, some with the female.
> 
> Do people think the situation is basically the same, and that good advice for one situation is also good advice for the other? Or are there fundamental differences based on the genders. From posts the situations sound very similar to me.
> 
> ...


Boiling down a relationship to HD/LD is *likely* inaccurate, misleading and potentially damaging. The "why" will answer the crux of your question, as to applicability of advice per situation.

Men arouse differently than women do. If we (either sex) try to arouse their partner as we would expect ourselves to be aroused, then we are looking for trouble and disappointment. Beyond that, there is the basic physiological necessity in relationships called "connection", that is a significant driving force behind desire. One can be too forceful, too needy, even too sensitive in this quest for penetration, only to ensure the LD result. If we instead focus on connection, the tables can be turned and sex drive maximized.

I often see a man being labeled with LD, when he just has anxiety. A woman might carry that same label by being over-tasked, tired or over-stimulated by children. I don't think HD/LD is a fair attribution to relationships, which are complex in nature.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

From reading some of the above, I understand that my situation may be quite unusual. Maybe all situations are so unusual that general rules / suggestions don't apply. 

Unfortunately we almost always just see one side of the story, and have to guess at what is not being said. This can lead to suggestions ranging from "man up" to "lose weight", to "lean how to please a woman", to "stop being so inhibited", etc. Sometimes these may be right, other times completely out of place.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its interesting that this is so far from my personal experience in many different ways.. Probably my situation is unusua. Maybe I don't recognize the situation that I'm in?

My wife doesn't have responsive desire, or if she does, she actively avoids anything that might trigger it. She is more likely to occasionally exhibit spontaneous desire where she wants sex, reguardless of what has been going on earlier. 

She doesn't particularly like PIV, so my "performance" is not part of her enjoyment. 

I suspect that all this is unusual. OTOH, a lot of her behaviors seem very common in some LD/HD situations, especially the creation of "excuses" to avoid sex, while claiming that the avoidance is one-time only, and not general. Also the pattern that the LD is also very limited in the range of sexual activities that they enjoy seems common.






Buddy400 said:


> I have to think that the primary cause of sex-starved marriages are due to one partner having spontaneous desire and the other responsive desire.
> 
> Despite the current cultural imperative to insist that men and women are exactly the same, I think it's clear that (due to testosterone) men tend to have spontaneous desire and women responsive desire (especially once past the "new relationship" phase). A woman in an LTR who has responsive desire may well have spontaneous desire in a new relationship but I believe this to be due to the "newness" of the relationship, not a sudden change from one type of desire to another.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@uhtred: I tend to agree with @Buddy400 that things are different for the sexes in part based on biology. If you are a female HD and you need to get your LD husband with anxiety issues to perform better so he will feel confident that he is doing a good job of pleasing you, that is a daunting task. Think what it took @UMP to make sex better for his wife. And he was desperate to get more sex! Can you imagine trying to get your spouse to embark on that level of effort and investment for something they do NOT want for themselves?!?!

And @Buddy400, you can be a HD man and still decide to become sexless for power and control reasons. As in, you are sick and tired of ceding power and control to your LD wife, so you decide not to have sex at all rather than be subject to her whims.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

My advice is the same for either situation. Don't marry someone you're not sexually compatible with. If sex started out great but stops after marriage, and the LD spouse won't make any effort, then GTFO.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Its interesting that this is so far from my personal experience in many different ways.. Probably my situation is unusua. Maybe I don't recognize the situation that I'm in?
> 
> My wife doesn't have responsive desire, or if she does, she actively avoids anything that might trigger it. She is more likely to occasionally exhibit spontaneous desire where she wants sex, reguardless of what has been going on earlier.
> 
> ...


I suspect that your wife does have responsive desire. It's just that she's selfish and therefore has no motivation to work with it.

If she was selfless and concerned about your happiness, she'd be motivated to give her responsive desire a chance. But, she's selfish, so she comes up with excuses to avoid putting any effort into it.

The performance anxiety is a problem for LD husband's with HD wives. It isn't an issue in your situation. If fact, performance problems on your part would probably be welcomed as it would lead to you bothering her less about sex.

Your wife has simply decided that if she doesn't spontaneously want sex, she shouldn't have sex. Your desires really just don;t come in to play.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> Neither of these is desirable to many partners, and many people find sexual acts without desire to be unpleasant.


Yes and no. There are many out there who have a desire to _please_ their partners when they, themselves, are not in the mood. That is far different then 'taking one for the team', as it were.

One could be completely LD, yet still have that desire to please your partner. The combination of being LD and having a "there's nothing in it for me" attitude is what's dangerous and undesirable.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> I believe it is very possible to enjoy doing something but not get around to doing it very often.


I believe this describes my wife.

Nothing I've seen in the 8 or so years I've been with my wife would have me believe she _doesn't_ like sex (or more specifically, sex with me). It's simply that it's not a priority for her, for whatever reason.

For her, it's almost purely physical - it's not about the connection and the intimacy. Many people view sex this way (typically men, I think). I believe this is largely due to a person's previous experiences, whether or not they've been in loving, caring relationships, how they've been treated by members of the opposite sex, even their upbringing.

I can't speak for my wife, but I suspect she was often treated as a sex object, as well as being surrounded by men who treated women similarly (she has two unmarried older brothers, one of whom is a complete dog). She's also always worked in a very male-dominated, blue-collar industry. For the first several years we were together, she referred to sex as "getting laid", "getting lucky", that sort of thing.

For many, there's a disconnect between the physical act of sex and one's own sexuality. I don't believe my wife ever thought that she owned her sexuality, and still doesn't. To her, she still views it as something she does for me - even though she (apparently) thoroughly enjoys the physicality of it (ie. orgasms etc.) I believe this is what she has learned through her upbringing and experiences - that sex is _for_ men. Regardless of what pleasure she gets out of it, the ultimate goal is that it's not about her.

Therefore, regardless of the enjoyment she gets out of it, she still has that pressure of it all being 'for me', not for her. I can't convince her otherwise - that it's about both of us, or even occasionally just about her, or just about me. Trying to tell somebody they've always viewed something in the 'wrong' way is an uphill battle. And, as I alluded to, 20+ years of being made to feel (by others) that one's value is tied to something is inherently difficult to shake. Because I am her first honest-to-goodness solid 'real' relationship, and because I value her for all kinds of things, it's easy for her to subconsciously separate the two. There's marriage/relationship and there's sex. Because the emphasis, for the first time in her life, is on the relationship - not the sex - I can see how this has happened. Sex is a reminder of what others have always expected of her, and what she likely felt she was valued for, first and foremost.

The main problem I see (and I suspect that many other women are in the same boat) is that men, typically, DO always want sex. However, the dynamic changes for most of us men in relationships and marriages, or simply when we're in love. When we're single - yes, we want sex. Sex is awesome. Sex is also validation. Once we're in love, we want sex with _you_, not _just_ sex. Yes, of course, we still have physical urges, but it's for _you_. My wife can't comprehend this, and I think many women don't (judging from the amount of similar threads on TAM). My wife is not just some hot chick I see and want to bone - but this is how she views the situation. "You just want me for sex" is such a familiar refrain on TAM. For people like my wife, it comes from years of seeing it firsthand. Yes, many people you come across in your lifetime will just want you for sex. So it inevitably becomes a trust issue for many people. Failing to believe that I don't want her just for sex, or that I only see her as T&A.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> One difference, a male with low desire may lead to performance issues that would actually impede the sex act (unable to get or maintain an erection). On the flipside, most females (I would think?) could still have sex (not taking into consideration whether she is actually into it or enjoying it).


I think that there is a similar, but different, response in females.

Sure a woman can have sex any time. But, if a woman has sex to 'service' her mate, it's very often a huge turn off. It does not have the effect of increasing desire/libido. It makes her want sex less.

Note that I'm using the word 'service' to mean that she's having sex and does not want it. But is appeasing the guy.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that there is a similar, but different, response in females.
> *
> Sure a woman can have sex any time. But, if a woman has sex to 'service' her mate, it's very often a huge turn off. *It does not have the effect of increasing desire/libido. It makes her want sex less.
> 
> Note that I'm using the word 'service' to mean that she's having sex and does not want it. But is appeasing the guy.


Not only can it be a turn off, but it can also be extremely painful for a woman to have sex when she doesn't want it. Being continually pressured into having sex can lead to a form of sexual dysfunction in women - vaginismus.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It's been my experience that there are fundamental gender based differences between men who are LD and women who are LD. 

Social/familial conditioning, the pressure to avoid sex until marriage, affects both men and women but *men have testosterone which is a very powerful prohibitory of shame based sex avoidance.* Women are slvt shamed, men are not. Even a man labeled as a hound dog does not at all carry the same shame as a woman labeled as a slvt. Early slvt shaming can't be overcome by the appearance of a wedding ring. Slvt shaming also affects how women view men and male sexuality. Slvt shaming is essentially informing a woman that men are pigs and a woman who gives in will never be worthy of a man who respects her. The wedding ring doesn't erase this. Her husband's higher drive just reinforces that men are pigs and only want sex. Slvt shaming affects men because women will not believe sex is anything other than 'he just wants to get laid.'

Sex for women usually begins without orgasms, while men nearly always climax from the very first time. As I've said several times, of all the women I know only one had regular orgasms when she first became sexually active. My middle daughter, age 27, was sexually active beginning at 16. She talked to me about sex because she was upset that she couldn't orgasm and wondered if she had some sort of sexual problem. She started to have orgasms with the boyfriend after college. (it now appears she has her mother's sex drive) My youngest is 17 and she also was unable to orgasm with her boyfriend. They were sexually active for about a year before they broke up. She sometimes orgasms when she masturbates but not all the time. Both daughters asked me what was wrong with them that they couldn't orgasm "no matter what he did and believe me we've tried everything!"

How many of you are prepared to talk to your daughters about learning how to orgasm? I was not prepared for that either but I muddled through. Imagine how a young woman might feel if she were raised in a slvt shaming repressive environment? Even if she had a strong drive the lack of orgasm accompanied with sexual shame would set up resentment and distrust of men and their ease with regard to sex.

This leads me to wonder if female sexual response is a learned behavior. I think young women need to establish neural pathways in order to orgasm. I think because women take much longer to learn to orgasm, typically, while men start out climaxing quickly and easily, reinforces the idea that sex is predominantly for male pleasure. I think the pressure young women feel to be both desirable without appearing to be slvtty, all the wile not having orgasms sets women up for having to really think through their sexual response. I think women have to intentionally set out to enjoy sex while men are prewired to climax quickly and easily.

While men are affected by sexual shame and also become sexually repressed, testosterone is powerful enough to overcome both.

I believe the way a woman was raised and her ability to orgasm plays a very important role in a LOT of sexual mismatches.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Interesting question. I enjoy pleasing my wife even if I'm not particularly in the mood for sex, of after I've finished, but I've never had a really lack of desire. I don't know what it would be like to please her if I really had no desire at all. 



alexm said:


> Yes and no. There are many out there who have a desire to _please_ their partners when they, themselves, are not in the mood. That is far different then 'taking one for the team', as it were.
> 
> One could be completely LD, yet still have that desire to please your partner. The combination of being LD and having a "there's nothing in it for me" attitude is what's dangerous and undesirable.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

@alexm, you post on how your wife feels like a sex object is I think exactly right for some women. What you describe seems to apply almost perfectly to my wife.

She views sex as something she does for me - even if I'm putting in almost all the effort, and doing exactly what she wants, and she is doing very little for me. 

She likes to be viewed as attractive, wears lingerie around the house much of the time, and wants (and gets) appreciative comments, but almost never wants my attraction to her too turn into actual sexual desire. 

Partly it seems that she views sex as degrading to women, and while she physically enjoys it, feels like she *shouldn't* enjoy it, so tries to avoid.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Absolutely
We do have to be clear on how the word "sex" is used. For some it means intercourse, for others it means sexual activity. 

In my case, my wife usually avoids all sexual activity, not just PIV, though that is now extremely rare because she finds it uncomfortable - at least partially because its extremely rare.

This distinction applies to men as well. A man with ED cannot have PIV sex, but can do other things to please his partner. Its not quite the same - ED makes sex impossible, but not painful, while is physically possible for a woman who isn't aroused to have sex, but it is very painful. Still, at least with a partner who doesn't want to cause pain, the effect is the same - PIV is out, but other things are possible.







Cosmos said:


> Not only can it be a turn off, but it can also be extremely painful for a woman to have sex when she doesn't want it. Being continually pressured into having sex can lead to a form of sexual dysfunction in women - vaginismus.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It would be interesting to know how often female LD is associated with not having orgasms. It isn't always, there are a number of posters here whose partners do regularly O, but who still don't want sex. Still, it could be major cause.

Same for LD men and ED. Is that a common cause?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Interesting question. I enjoy pleasing my wife even if I'm not particularly in the mood for sex, of after I've finished, but I've never had a really lack of desire. *I don't know what it would be like to please her if I really had no desire at all.*


If you had no sexual desire?

Or if you had no desire to please her?

I could understand the first, I'm not sure that I can understand the second.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> [MENTION=3420]
> She likes to be viewed as attractive, wears lingerie around the house much of the time, and wants (and gets) appreciative comments


I'm not sure I see why you'd give her what she's looking for.

She doesn't return the favor.

Seems like this is a one way relationship where you fulfill her needs but she doesn't fulfill yours.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Since I always have both, Its difficult to imagine not having either. 



Buddy400 said:


> If you had no sexual desire?
> 
> Or if you had no desire to please her?
> 
> I could understand the first, I'm not sure that I can understand the second.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> And Buddy400, you can be a HD man and still decide to become sexless for power and control reasons. As in, you are sick and tired of ceding power and control to your LD wife, so you decide not to have sex at all rather than be subject to her whims.


Sure, it's just harder.

I admire you for having the strength of character to refuse to let yourself be jacked around by sex.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Since I always have both, Its difficult to imagine not having either.


My desire to please my wife is enough to make getting her off enjoyable for me even if I have no particular need (or ability) to orgasm myself.

Now, if I found the act repulsive, that would be something else.

I'm going through a libido trough at the moment, NSA oral for the wife twice in the last 5 days.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> @alexm, you post on how your wife feels like a sex object is I think exactly right for some women. What you describe seems to apply almost perfectly to my wife.
> 
> She views sex as something she does for me - even if I'm putting in almost all the effort, and doing exactly what she wants, and she is doing very little for me.
> 
> ...


Bingo.

My wife also acts similarly (minus the lingerie. I wish!). But you're right - as soon as it gets close to showing sexual interest on my behalf, it's over. 'Love my body, but not TOO much!'

The other difference with my wife is that she does do 'work' during sex. A lot of it. She knows what she wants and likes, and she knows what I want and like. She's about as uninhibited as your imagination allows. However, outside of the bedroom, she acts (and speaks) as though it's mostly for my benefit. Actions and words don't match up. She's the one having multiple orgasms, and often taking charge of positions, telling me what pace I should be going at, etc. In terms of pure physical satisfaction, she's enjoying as much, if not more, than I do! Then a few days later, I'll get the "we just had sex!!!" routine. :scratchhead:


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> It would be interesting to know how often female LD is associated with not having orgasms. It isn't always, there are a number of posters here whose partners do regularly O, but who still don't want sex. Still, it could be major cause.
> 
> Same for LD men and ED. Is that a common cause?


My wife is multi, multi orgasmic, yet she has little to no interest in sex.

That's not to say that non-orgasmic women or those who tend to take a while and require a long warm up period desire sex less often than those who orgasm easily and/or frequently, but I'd be inclined to think it's skewed that way.

Which is why I can't quite wrap my head around my wife in this regard. Her refractory period is roughly 10-20 seconds, no exaggeration. She can, and does, have an orgasm every 60-90 seconds if she allows it. Whether it's oral, manual, gspot, anal or PIV doesn't matter. Oddly enough, it takes her 10 times as long if she's using her vibrator on herself, and the orgasms aren't as strong. Go figure. I guess she has a hard time concentrating or something. And she easily orgasms from PIV, without much warm up, to boot. Those time frames above are regardless of method.

Basically, she gets off quickly, easily, and multiple times, yet has no real interest in doing so. :scratchhead:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

similarities and differences.
My wife has a very difficult time telling me what she wants in bed. Maybe part of her overall aversion to ses, despite physically enjoying it? Even simple would you prefer me to to A or B questions rarely get an answer. 

She often asks what I would like in bed, but turns down pretty much everything except giving me a HJ. Maybe she is hoping for some particular answer? If so, I can't guess what it is. On the rare occasions where she will try something new, its only once - even if she enjoys it:

Once I suggested trying giving her oral while she straddled my face. She enjoyed it, and said it was fun. Next time I suggest - get "not this time". . Next time, she says the bed is too soft but we should move to the other bedroom next time. Next time we move, I suggest - no. When asked she says it was fun but has never said yes again. I of course stopped asking.

This has been true for several things I have suggested. Try once, say its fun, then never again. 


Strangely she *talks* as if she enjoys sex. Before every vacation she will talk about spending lots of time having sex, will bring lingerie, toys etc. Then on vacation its like being at home - there is always some reason not to have sex at any particular time. 

The only model I have for my wife's behavior is that she enjoys sex but feels like she shouldn't. Romance, flirting etc are good, but sex is *bad* or maybe degrading. 





alexm said:


> Bingo.
> 
> My wife also acts similarly (minus the lingerie. I wish!). But you're right - as soon as it gets close to showing sexual interest on my behalf, it's over. 'Love my body, but not TOO much!'
> 
> The other difference with my wife is that she does do 'work' during sex. A lot of it. She knows what she wants and likes, and she knows what I want and like. She's about as uninhibited as your imagination allows. However, outside of the bedroom, she acts (and speaks) as though it's mostly for my benefit. Actions and words don't match up. She's the one having multiple orgasms, and often taking charge of positions, telling me what pace I should be going at, etc. In terms of pure physical satisfaction, she's enjoying as much, if not more, than I do! Then a few days later, I'll get the "we just had sex!!!" routine. :scratchhead:


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> It's been my experience that there are fundamental gender based differences between men who are LD and women who are LD.
> 
> Social/familial conditioning, the pressure to avoid sex until marriage, affects both men and women but *men have testosterone which is a very powerful prohibitory of shame based sex avoidance.* Women are slvt shamed, men are not. Even a man labeled as a hound dog does not at all carry the same shame as a woman labeled as a slvt. Early slvt shaming can't be overcome by the appearance of a wedding ring. Slvt shaming also affects how women view men and male sexuality. Slvt shaming is essentially informing a woman that men are pigs and a woman who gives in will never be worthy of a man who respects her. The wedding ring doesn't erase this. Her husband's higher drive just reinforces that men are pigs and only want sex. Slvt shaming affects men because women will not believe sex is anything other than 'he just wants to get laid.'
> 
> ...


This post sums up the female sexual experience of most women I know, HD men will do well to pay attention to this, lots of answers in this post.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Well, my choices are:

Leave. Certainly an option but the rest of our relationship is good. I've thought about it and its not worth leaving over lack of a good sex life.

Stop giving her what she wants. It won't make her give me what I want, and will make her unhappy, which will make me more unhappy.

Make her happy, and not worry that she doesn't do the same for me. 


The last is as happy as I can be given the constraints, and makes her happier. Its not "fair" but its better. 




Buddy400 said:


> I'm not sure I see why you'd give her what she's looking for.
> 
> She doesn't return the favor.
> 
> Seems like this is a one way relationship where you fulfill her needs but she doesn't fulfill yours.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> similarities and differences.
> My wife has a very difficult time telling me what she wants in bed. Maybe part of her overall aversion to ses, despite physically enjoying it? Even simple would you prefer me to to A or B questions rarely get an answer.
> 
> She often asks what I would like in bed, but turns down pretty much everything except giving me a HJ. Maybe she is hoping for some particular answer? If so, I can't guess what it is. On the rare occasions where she will try something new, its only once - even if she enjoys it:
> ...




What you describe is what sexual shame does to a woman. She knows she is supposed to enjoy sex with her husband and she does. But the enjoyment isn't enough to overcome shame. She tries something knew, but can't reconcile enjoying something 'perverted' so she avoids it.

You wife is repressed because of sexual shame. If she could intentionally work to overcome that nasty voice of slvt shaming judgement, you both would have a much better sex life.

The modern virtuous woman who is liberated isn't supposed to enjoy something that might seem to be degrading and demeaning. This is another avenue of sexual shame and this also has to be intentionally overcome.

Men who want virgins, women without sexual experience? This is what that woman is like, this is why she could remain sexually inexperienced. Because shame prevented her from enjoying sexual desire. 

So when you slvt shame the woman who has slept around too much, just remember that when she does settle down with a husband, she has already overcome sexual shame.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Well, my choices are:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Most people can't live in this zone without significant resentment building. I know I can't. Eventually most people either consciously or unconsciously balance that scale by engaging in behavior that gives them some sense of fulfillment at the expense of their selfish partner. That is unless they significantly undervalue themselves, in which case they just absorb the pain. You seem pretty self-aware and you are not consciously sabotaging things that I can see. So, how do you balance the scale to avoid total resentment meltdown and emotional distancing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I view it as a disability on her part. I would not hold it against her if some physical issue prevented her from having sex, so I don't hold a psychological one against her. I convinced the problem isn't me, so i don't let it reflect on my self worth.

I don't always succeed. Sometimes I do get resentful and angry. I consider myself honor bound to not her her - psychologically as well as physically, so that helps me avoid saying / doing bad things when I'm feeling particularly resentful. 






rich84 said:


> Most people can't live in this zone without significant resentment building. I know I can't. Eventually most people either consciously or unconsciously balance that scale by engaging in behavior that gives them some sense of fulfillment at the expense of their selfish partner. That is unless they significantly undervalue themselves, in which case they just absorb the pain. You seem pretty self-aware and you are not consciously sabotaging things that I can see. So, how do you balance the scale to avoid total resentment meltdown and emotional distancing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> What you describe is what sexual shame does to a woman. She knows she is supposed to enjoy sex with her husband and she does. But the enjoyment isn't enough to overcome shame. She tries something knew, but can't reconcile enjoying something 'perverted' so she avoids it.
> 
> You wife is repressed because of sexual shame. If she could intentionally work to overcome that nasty voice of slvt shaming judgement, you both would have a much better sex life.
> 
> ...


Slvt shaming hurts female sexuality, thus it hurts marriages.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

uhtred said:


> I view it as a disability on her part. I would not hold it against her if some physical issue prevented her from having sex, so I don't hold a psychological one against her. I convinced the problem isn't me, so i don't let it reflect on my self worth.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't always succeed. Sometimes I do get resentful and angry. I consider myself honor bound to not her her - psychologically as well as physically, so that helps me avoid saying / doing bad things when I'm feeling particularly resentful.




There's an element of validation, certainly. However that can be overcome as you say based on a more appropriate, internal estimation of oneself. As for release, one can manage that independently to a certain extent. However, what's your replacement for intimacy? Do you amp up nonsexual touch, acts of service, etc? I, for one, cannot engage in much nonsexual touch when my needs for sex are greatly unmet. Just too painful and nearly impossible not to escalate without discomfort. So, are you able to do this or do you view your wife as a nonsexual being in order to change your frame of mind (kind of like a relative - no sexual response)? I don't think I could trick myself into thinking my wife has a disability when she has a choice and there are variables within her control that impact whether or not she is a willing sexual partner. 


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've just gotten used to the idea that she shows love with non-sexual touch. I have enough practice, and am old enough that touching her isn't really sexual anymore. 

Not saying I'm happy with the situation, but all things considered its seems the best choice I can make. I don't recommend it for anyone else. If 30 years ago, i knew what I know now, I would not have pursued the relationship. 



rich84 said:


> There's an element of validation, certainly. However that can be overcome as you say based on a more appropriate, internal estimation of oneself. As for release, one can manage that independently to a certain extent. However, what's your replacement for intimacy? Do you amp up nonsexual touch, acts of service, etc? I, for one, cannot engage in much nonsexual touch when my needs for sex are greatly unmet. Just too painful and nearly impossible not to escalate without discomfort. So, are you able to do this or do you view your wife as a nonsexual being in order to change your frame of mind (kind of like a relative - no sexual response)? I don't think I could trick myself into thinking my wife has a disability when she has a choice and there are variables within her control that impact whether or not she is a willing sexual partner.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I think there are fundamental differences because male/female physiology and sexual responses have a few differences, but the overall human emotions of "I want my partner, they don't want me" on the part of the HD partner and the "Sex is all they want from me" from the LD partner seem to be feelings echoed here on TAM from both men or women - enough to sort of form a pattern. Seems like non-sexual touch declines when sex declines too (or maybe the other way around). Not sure I can really relate to a LD person although of course I can try and empathize. 

I would add for HD women there is an added sense of shame, because we're taught we're not "meant" to be the HD partner, and that if we can't inspire desire in our husbands there must be something wrong with us. That we are nymphomaniacs for wanting more than a distracted quickie to placate us. It took me 5 years to get that it wasn't anything that I did. He wasn't ever going to want sex more than a couple of times a month no matter how much weight I lost or lingerie I wore or hoops I jumped through in our relationship in general. Lesson learned. Of course, it might have been the other women I discovered he was sleeping with eventually, but initially, I'm at least somewhat certain there was nobody else and he just wasn't particularly excited by me. That never changed. Meh. His loss. I learned a few home truths in that marriage and would like to think the next time I am with someone in a relationship and they have less desire than me, I will learn it isn't personal, and isn't a reflection on me, and anger over it only sours the relationship, whether it's expressed or not.

Lack of sex after marriage seems to be sort of a cultural punchline, so I've got to think the longer you are with someone in general, even with no desire gap, there is less sex over the years.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> What you describe is what sexual shame does to a woman. She knows she is supposed to enjoy sex with her husband and she does. But the enjoyment isn't enough to overcome shame. She tries something knew, but can't reconcile enjoying something 'perverted' so she avoids it.
> 
> You wife is repressed because of sexual shame. If she could intentionally work to overcome that nasty voice of slvt shaming judgement, you both would have a much better sex life.
> 
> ...


This post and the previous about female sexuality are, as usual, pure gold.

My only concern is where the "blame" is allocated.

You and @techmom (of course), blame men ("all men want inexperienced women or virgins to protect their fragile egos").

To your credit, you also blame some of the elements of modern feminism (sex is about male dominance of women).

But I think it's deeper than that. Before the advent of birth control and a woman's ability to support herself and her children, something had to prevent women from just having sex with whomever she pleased, whenever she wanted. I imagine some degree of "slvt shaming" is built into a woman's emotional DNA.

Pretending that a woman's sexuality is exactly like a man's and that if she has good enough orgasms often enough that she'll want to have sex just like a man and that she'll always want sex with a man if she's "into" him enough lead us all down the wrong path.

Blaming men and society for women's sexuality deprives women of agency and leave their sexual fulfillment in the hands of others.

The more clearly we understand what's really going on, the better we can address the issues.

I'd think the best approach would be to realize that men want sex; it's okay for them to want sex; I want sex; it's okay for me to want sex; what do I need to overcome to make us have more sex?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I can see lots of reasons why traditionally women would feel less free to have sex. It would make sense then that there would be a large number of women who carry that reluctance into marriage. 

What is odd though is that LD men seem roughly as common as LD women, and there hasn't been the same sort of long term social pressure against men having sex. (maybe there are far more LD women? I don't know where to get statistics, but that isn't the impresion I get).

Are LD / sexless marriages just an extension of society's pressures against inappropriate sex, or is there something entirely different going on?

The "dominance" question is interesting. I wonder how many women avoid sex because it is a sign of male dominance / control, and how many men avoid sex because it is how women "manipulate" men? Is it actually the opposite side of traditional societal pressures? This is in many ways the best model for my wife's behavior - but she may be very rare. 




Buddy400 said:


> This post and the previous about female sexuality are, as usual, pure gold.
> 
> My only concern is where the "blame" is allocated.
> 
> ...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Social/familial conditioning, the pressure to avoid sex until marriage, affects both men and women but men have testosterone which is a very powerful prohibitory of shame based sex avoidance. Women are slvt shamed, men are not. Even a man labeled as a hound dog does not at all carry the same shame as a woman labeled as a slvt. Early slvt shaming can't be overcome by the appearance of a wedding ring. Slvt shaming also affects how women view men and male sexuality. Slvt shaming is essentially informing a woman that men are pigs and a woman who gives in will never be worthy of a man who respects her. The wedding ring doesn't erase this. Her husband's higher drive just reinforces that men are pigs and only want sex. Slvt shaming affects men because women will not believe sex is anything other than 'he just wants to get laid.'


My ex used to say "men are pigs" ALL THE TIME. I spent years trying to prove otherwise and never succeeded. I think a lot of our marital issues stemmed from that attitude.

As for slvt shaming, if women can't be free to sleep around, figure themselves out sexually, and learn what they want in a sexual relationship, all prior to marriage, then both men AND women are going to have bad sexual relationships in marriage.

As long as we value virginity and chastity in women and shame women who are not, how can men be surprised when women have an avoidant attitude to sex after vows?

From the reverse angle, men who are LD may not know how to handle a woman who doesn't behave like a 'proper' wife? They expect traditional chastity and devalue the woman who isn't. Even if it was him who gave her the sexual experience in the first place. And when you don't respect your spouse, attraction can fade.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> This post and the previous about female sexuality are, as usual, pure gold.
> 
> My only concern is where the "blame" is allocated.
> 
> You and @techmom (of course), blame men ("all men want inexperienced women or virgins to protect their fragile egos").



First, thank you for the kind compliment. Second, perhaps my wording was clumsy but I did not intend, AT ALL, to implicate all men or even men in general. There are very few men, IMO, who seek virgins. There are a lot more men who are very uncomfortable with the idea that their wife has more sexual experience or more past lovers. While some of that discomfort might be based in being territorial, I think some of it is also based on insecurity. But for the record, I do not think the majority of men seek sexually inexperienced wives, I think most men don't really care.




> To your credit, you also blame some of the elements of modern feminism (sex is about male dominance of women).


Again, I have to tweak your understanding of what I wrote and admit clumsiness as the cause of the misunderstanding.

I do not blame, AT ALL, modern feminism. True feminism gives women the power to be who they wish to be no matter who that person is. True feminism is about breaking any mold women have historically been shoved into and instead urges women to create their own mold for themselves without regard to social feminine ideals. 

But this message hasn't always been clearly delivered, nor clearly received. I fought against my own draw toward dominance and submission because I was a liberated woman who did not get off being submissive. But I was wrong. I conclude that there are many other women who fight against their own sexuality because they too are liberated and they too confuse being liberated and being themselves.





> But I think it's deeper than that. Before the advent of birth control and a woman's ability to support herself and her children, something had to prevent women from just having sex with whomever she pleased, whenever she wanted. I imagine some degree of "slvt shaming" is built into a woman's emotional DNA.


In so far as social conditioning is passed from generation to the next...maybe. But I suspect females have always been regarded as a resource. Because men are built bigger and stronger it has been men who view females as a resource to acquire, to keep and to guard. Passing the resources a man might acquire down to the next generation meant the children needed to his and the only way to ensure that was to require a virgin and require she remain chaste except to the man who acquired, kept and guarded her. In other words, for tens of thousands of years the average female was little more than a natural resource that men acquired, kept and guarded. Of course there are some notable exceptions through history where a woman grabbed power and had her way with whomever turned her head, but the vast vast majority never enjoyed the sexual freedoms men have always had, and women are just now getting to experience.





> Pretending that a woman's sexuality is exactly like a man's and that if she has good enough orgasms often enough that she'll want to have sex just like a man and that she'll always want sex with a man if she's "into" him enough lead us all down the wrong path.
> 
> Blaming men and society for women's sexuality deprives women of agency and leave their sexual fulfillment in the hands of others.
> 
> ...


I have always stated that women do not experience their sexuality the same way men do. 

Yes!! Absolutely everyone should liberate their sexuality!!! Claim it! Own it!

I want sex. It's okay to want sex. Sex is an important part of my life. What needs to happen for our sex life to meet both of our needs?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> My ex used to say "men are pigs" ALL THE TIME. I spent years trying to prove otherwise and never succeeded. I think a lot of our marital issues stemmed from that attitude.
> 
> As for slvt shaming, if women can't be free to sleep around, figure themselves out sexually, and learn what they want in a sexual relationship, all prior to marriage, then both men AND women are going to have bad sexual relationships in marriage.
> 
> ...


Bravo!

Yes, exactly.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> *Men who want virgins, women without sexual experience*? This is what that woman is like, this is why she could remain sexually inexperienced. Because shame prevented her from enjoying sexual desire.
> 
> So when you slvt shame the woman who has slept around too much, just remember that when she does settle down with a husband, she has already overcome sexual shame.


Curious regarding the bolded since I have seem similar statements made on TAM before by some other women. Is this still commonly thought of? I mean, I don't know any guy who wants a virgin. I do understand in different cultures this may be looked at differently (along with poor treatment of women). I guess this line of thinking seems a bit old schooled to me, but maybe it is still rather prevalent? Now I do know some guys are uncomfortable with women who have more sexual experience then them, but that would be somewhat different.

In terms of slvt shame, where do you draw the line? I have my own personal views on sex, so if I were looking for someone I would be looking for someone who shared similar views. Someone who had a large partner count, engaged in sleeping around, ONS, etc... would not share the same view as myself, so for me that would be a negative. Now granted, I wouldn't use it to call her all kinds of nasty names, I am not one to tell her or anyone else for that matter how to act or not act, but it would undoubtedly impact whether or not I would pursue a relationship with that person (which I know some would say I was slvt shaming the person, something I disagree with).


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I knew one guy in college who was hung up on virginity, but that is the only one. I think you are right that its rare. I also think you are right that a large percentage of men are bothered by women with too much experience (I'm not). 

Slvt shaming covers a wide range from people who have strong negative thoughts about women with a lot of experience, to those who just don't find them to be good partners. Its still very common - I remember a comedy recently (watched on an airliner) about a woman horrified that she might have too many partners before she got married. 

Again, personally I don't care at all. 

For men the pervert / horn-dog / dirt-old-man shaming. Men are expected to be sexually active but within a set of sharp, but poorly defined boundaries.

I think this has the strange effect that if women can avoid being shamed for being too promiscuous it may be more socially acceptable for them to be bi, kinky, or use sex toys. 




EllisRedding said:


> Curious regarding the bolded since I have seem similar statements made on TAM before by some other women. Is this still commonly thought of? I mean, I don't know any guy who wants a virgin. I do understand in different cultures this may be looked at differently (along with poor treatment of women). I guess this line of thinking seems a bit old schooled to me, but maybe it is still rather prevalent? Now I do know some guys are uncomfortable with women who have more sexual experience then them, but that would be somewhat different.
> 
> In terms of slvt shame, where do you draw the line? I have my own personal views on sex, so if I were looking for someone I would be looking for someone who shared similar views. Someone who had a large partner count, engaged in sleeping around, ONS, etc... would not share the same view as myself, so for me that would be a negative. Now granted, I wouldn't use it to call her all kinds of nasty names, I am not one to tell her or anyone else for that matter how to act or not act, but it would undoubtedly impact whether or not I would pursue a relationship with that person (which I know some would say I was slvt shaming the person, something I disagree with).


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@EllisRedding

I don't know for fact but it seems to me you're perspective is right, there aren't many men seeking virgins.

I don't know where the line is between sexually confident and promiscuous. I rather think numbers are meaningless. What's more important would be a history of decent length relationships in which monogamy was agreed upon. Some ONS here and there are also meaningless because everyone is entitled to having a beer every now and then but someone who drinks nothing but beer....not so much.

@uhtred

It has always bothered me how common it is for men to be uncomfortable if their wife has a higher number because it's not common for a woman to be bothered if her husband has a higher number (except @Maricha  ) I think it's part being territorial and part insecurity and neither are reasons I would accept in a partner.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> @EllisRedding
> 
> I don't know for fact but it seems to me you're perspective is right, there aren't many men seeking virgins.
> 
> ...


I think I have always viewed it as you should not hold someone else to a standard that you don't even hold yourself to (the good ole double standard you do see employed by some). I think depending on the person the number actually gives good insight. Let's say someone has a high number (whatever that is, and of course may vary based on age, especially since apparently 65%+ of TAM is over 70yrs old :grin2 but always through monogamous relationships, what this tells me is that this person is possibly a serial dater, has issues staying in LTRs. It may not of course, but does add some pieces to the puzzle, along with other aspects as you get to know the person.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> In so far as social conditioning is passed from generation to the next...maybe. But I suspect females have always been regarded as a resource. Because men are built bigger and stronger it has been men who view females as a resource to acquire, to keep and to guard. Passing the resources a man might acquire down to the next generation meant the children needed to his and the only way to ensure that was to require a virgin and require she remain chaste except to the man who acquired, kept and guarded her. In other words, for tens of thousands of years the average female was little more than a natural resource that men acquired, kept and guarded. Of course there are some notable exceptions through history where a woman grabbed power and had her way with whomever turned her head, but the vast vast majority never enjoyed the sexual freedoms men have always had, and women are just now getting to experience.


Prior to birth control, women's ability to support themselves comfortably and the ability to identify fathers via DNA, a woman having children out of wedlock was a problem *for her* (and therefore, unrestricted sex was very dangerous for women). It wasn't just a situation of women being seen as a resource to be acquired by men. It wasn't the patriarchy that kept women's sexual behaviors in check, it was in their own self interest.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> It has always bothered me how common it is for men to be uncomfortable if their wife has a higher number because it's not common for a woman to be bothered if her husband has a higher number (except @Maricha  ) I think it's part being territorial and part insecurity and neither are reasons I would accept in a partner.


If the problem is that women aren't bothered by men having a higher number and men are bothered by women having a higher number, there would seem to be two solutions;

1) Women should be bothered by a man having a higher number

2) Men shouldn't be bothered by a woman having a higher number

Why is the answer 2)?

Couldn't it be 1)?


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

I think it might be harder to be a HD woman in a HD/LD marriage than a HD man. Part of it is the differences between the sexes and part of it is the shaming and societal pressures on women that has been discussed. The expectations of the opposite sex that influence feelings of inadequacy and the doubting of one's self worth is the biggest difference I see. After all, all men are horn dogs that care about nothing but sex. Now, we know that couldn't be further from the truth, but the same expectations are not an ubiquitously accepted truth for the fairer sex. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> As for slvt shaming, if women can't be free to sleep around, figure themselves out sexually, and learn what they want in a sexual relationship, all prior to marriage, then both men AND women are going to have bad sexual relationships in marriage.
> 
> As long as we value virginity and chastity in women and shame women who are not, how can men be surprised when women have an avoidant attitude to sex after vows?


I'm guessing women would have to get that additional experience via casual sex.

But what if women don't get as much out of casual sex as men?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201008/can-women-enjoy-casual-sex-should-they

"A recently published article on the Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality examines the issue of casual, or recreational sex, and finds that for both men and women, casual sex improves their feelings of sexual satisfaction. *But, for men and not for women, recreational sex improves their overall feelings of happiness and sexual self-esteem.* Bold mine.

Do men and women differ in their responses to casual sex? Yes. Do we understand these differences fully, or their causes? No. Are the differences universal and categorical? No. All men do not enjoy casual sex, though this might be true for many of them. Nor are all women harmed by casual sex, or turned off by it, though again, this might be true for many women."

Now, I'm not one to say that a single study proves anything, but before we encourage women to fully "experience their sexuality", perhaps we should ask the question.

Again, let's consider the possibility that male and female sexuality may not be exactly the same.

Edited to add: Many men (80%?) don't really have the opportunity to "sleep around and figure themselves out sexually" either and we're not too worried about them.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> If the problem is that women aren't bothered by men having a higher number and men are bothered by women having a higher number, there would seem to be two solutions;
> 
> 1) Women should be bothered by a man having a higher number
> 
> ...



No, it can't be 1.

The answer is 2 unless you can explain what meaning number of sexual partners has without slvt shaming or being territorial.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Prior to birth control, women's ability to support themselves comfortably and the ability to identify fathers via DNA, a woman having children out of wedlock was a problem *for her* (and therefore, unrestricted sex was very dangerous for women). It wasn't just a situation of women being seen as a resource to be acquired by men. It wasn't the patriarchy that kept women's sexual behaviors in check, it was in their own self interest.


No, look beyond the issue of being able to support themselves. Ask why they could not support themselves. What kept women from being able to support themselves? For certainly women haven't grown bigger brains, or more fortitude, or more ambition have they?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm guessing women would have to get that additional experience via casual sex.
> 
> But what if women don't get as much out of casual sex as men?
> 
> ...



Research has demonstrated that male and females experience the full range of their sexuality or sexual arousal/response differently. In the past, male sexual arousal and response was considered the base line and from that outliers were identified. But now we understand that we cannot overlay a female arousal/response onto what is considered average for a male's pattern. 

I suggest that in future generations, who are raised to claim it, own it, and not be ashamed of it, the female sexual experience will be closer to what males experience in terms of self reporting satisfaction.

Once there are more women who own it, they will be having sex because they want it and they won't be shy about getting what they want from the experience. 

I think women who have sex for any reason other than because they want it, probably won't be as satisfied with that encounter.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> No, look beyond the issue of being able to support themselves. Ask why they could not support themselves. What kept women from being able to support themselves? For certainly women haven't grown bigger brains, or more fortitude, or more ambition have they?


Whether or not their inability to support themselves was an evil conspiracy, it was a problem and therefore would have argued against having a child out of wedlock.

The reason that women can now work outside the home and realize their full potential is that working inside the home has become so easy that it doesn't require full time work (understanding that the idea of working outside the home is of fairly recent vintage for both men and women). Now, I guess that men and women could have alternated working inside the home and outside, so the fact that that didn't happen may be a fault of the patriarchy.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Research has demonstrated that male and females experience the full range of their sexuality or sexual arousal/response differently. In the past, male sexual arousal and response was considered the base line and from that outliers were identified. But now we understand that we cannot overlay a female arousal/response onto what is considered average for a male's pattern.
> 
> I suggest that in future generations, who are raised to claim it, own it, and not be ashamed of it, the female sexual experience will be closer to what males experience in terms of self reporting satisfaction.
> 
> ...


100% agree


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