# Request input from WS or BS experience: WS (woman) strict EA with AP (woman)



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Married 24 years, wife in intense EA with other woman 4 months (Verified.) No PA and no desire for PA on wife's part (Verified). Desire for PA by AP (Verified). By the way, thank you TAM for how advice on how to "spy" and find the truth.

We are 3 Days after DD. NC was broken, as expected, first day. On second day I delivered "now we have to divorce, no choice". This was extremely hard to do. I didn't know if it was going to be the end of my marriage or not, but it worked. (thank you TAM for the insight on what to do and how.)

Breakthrough the fog achieved. Finally having HONEST conversations, the deception stopped. (verified). She's opened up and it's all pouring out. I'm listening. 

But my WS is still vulnerable, still in fog and still confused, especially since it is another woman, does not have the sexual desire but feels the intense emotional bond. She's mourning the loss. I understand, but need to keep her on track. 

I would like to request input from WS who was in a strict EA (preferably woman with woman) or BS with woman WS in similar situation, on how they felt at this stage, what will work to help pull her out of the fog and keep NC.


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

What did they talk about? They were friends, but the other woman wanted sex from your wife? If your wife remained in contact with the other woman, where did she envision the relationship going? Almost certainly, there would have come a time in the future when your wife's inhibitions were worn down, maybe by alcohol or just from gradual actions of the other woman, that your wife would have given in to the sexual advances of the other woman. Does your wife not see this?

Do you have kids? Is the other woman your wife's co-worker or someone else who it will be hard to avoid in the future?

Reconciliation can only be successful when the cheating spouse chooses their spouse and family over the affair partner.

It is tough for the cheating spouse to maintain no contact. Block the other woman from all avenues of communication to the extent possible. Get transparency on communication devices and accounts from your wife and monitor to ensure she maintains the "no contact." Have her account for her whereabouts 24/7 until you develop some trust that she no longer wants to contact the other woman.

You should try to make continuing the affair as unpleasant as possible for the other woman. Consider exposing the other woman's actions to her family and friends, emphasizing how the other woman is trying to break up your marriage. If the other woman has a girlfriend, expose to her also. Those close to the other woman will exert pressure on her to give up pursuing a married woman.

Consider exposing the affair to you and your wife's families as well. Let them know that it was not sexual on your wife's part, but it was sexual on the other woman's part and that your wife does not want to give up the relationship. Your wife's family will discourage her from continuing the relationship and will pressure her to stay with you and work on the marriage.

Have your wife handwrite the other woman a "no contact" letter stating that your wife is horribly ashamed of the way she's behaved toward her husband and feels terrible that she risked losing her husband. The letter should state that your wife wants no further contact with the other woman ever again, and that any attempt at contact will be viewed by your wife as harassment and she will file harassment charges against the other woman.

Accept that you may lose your wife and marriage no matter what you do. You cannot control your wife, only your self. Your wife has to know, she can have the other woman, but if so, then she can't have you, too. Ultimately, it is your wife who is going to have to want you over the other woman.

It might help for your wife to see the other woman in a negative light. Exposure helps to do that. Also, ask your wife what kind of gay woman preys on straight married women and breaks up marriages? Also emphasize how unrealistic her friendship with the other woman is. Your wife sees the other woman as a friend. The other woman sees your wife as a lover and an object of sexual desire. That relationship cannot work. Either it has to be a friendship, or a sexual relationship. It is unrealistic of your wife to believe the "friendship" could continue very much longer without it becoming sexual.

Be strong, firm and confident with your wife. Do not show neediness or weakness. Be at your best. Look your best. Project to her that you will be OK with or without her. If she has chosen you over the other woman, try to strengthen your relationship with your wife. Spend time together. Have sex. Do fun things together.

The longer your wife maintains no contact with the other woman, the more her feelings should fade.


----------



## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Well I only meet one of your qualifications - having been involved in a very intense EA only, but my thoughts can't hurt. 

It is extremely difficult to maintain no contact and it is good that you recognize the challenge that lies in front of both of you. You've likely read here about the addiction element of the fog, I can't emphasize enough just how true this is. Treat her exactly like you would if you were trying to get her clean. Inspect, verify, communicate - hold her accountable. Let her know you will inspect what you expect and let her see you do it. Keep dealing with it all and talking about it. Keep asking her questions, keep asking her why and how. Keep her thinking about it. If you start to rug sweep it the travesty she's created will slowly start to recede from her mind and the fog will roll back in to fill the void. You have to keep her mind filled up with thoughts of you, what she stands to lose, and what she can do to reconcile. 

Keep a sharp eye out. It is so very easy to reestablish contact. I broke NC three times before it took. Never for more than a day or two and it was either with my wife's advance knowledge or I confessed. I wanted out of my EA, had no desire to resume it and I still broke NC. It's a tough battle. She's going to struggle and suffer, do not cut her any slack. You have to keep you boot on the neck of an affair until you are totally convinced it's dead. If you let up to soon, it will spring back to life.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Not at all what you asked for, but here's a NY times article with some recent research into why women go down this road:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=all

Hopefully, there will be some useful info there for you. The upshot would be that there isn't much difference whether these things happen with men or women, since women are on a sliding scale of sexuality.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Have you read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass? It is the best book I know of right now to fully explain emotional affairs.

This is the 3rd time I've said this, this weekend:
cheaters think it's about the physical, and if they haven't crossed that line, they're in the clear.

But cheating isn't about that. It's about creating a secret private life from which your spouse is excluded.

It's powerfully addicting and it can defy reason. It fills a need or else anyone would be able to walk away from it. You see the proof with your own eyes now.

Have you read His Needs / Her Needs, Love Busters, and/or the 5 Love Languages yet. These books will give you insight to needs / ways of pushing her away that you may be unaware of. They come with questionnaires on the websites that she can fill out. The good thing is that if she is recommitted, you get something out of it too, she can discover the needs in you that she wasn't aware of / isn't fulfilling.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Will Kane: Many thanks for the taking the time to write this. I agree with the potential for sexual relations as you described. I discussed it with my wife on DDay. Again, she's "confused" but part of her sees that was a potential, part of her is in denial of it as a potential. 

AP recently broke up with SO, this is what triggered the escalation of their friendship of 5 years, as she sought guidance/consolation from my wife. AP was good friend of my wife and a friend of mine. There are few people to expose AP to. I am leaving that be for now. 

Wife finally chose marriage and family after breaking NC and confronted with imminent divorce in a manner that convinced me is sincere and true. 

I am just so glad to be out of limbo, and past DDay and 2nd DDay. What a horrible time and devastating experience. Yet I know my wife and marriage is still vulnerable. 

Thank you for your other advice. Taking to heart.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Sigma 1299: Thank you, very valuable input for me. I have a few questions if you would:

1. In the first week after DDay, how did you process the conflicting emotions, how aware of being in the fog were you? I told my wife she is in the fog, gave her some stuff to read explaining it. Do you think more of that will help? 

2. I intend to about it each day, remind her of NC, ask her how she feels. She is now comfortable talking about what she calls "mourning the loss". I listen. I see this as a sign that she is turning back to me emotionally. It is a tricky balance to "keep her aware" without her feeling I am lording it over her. She has opened up, and I want to keep that coming. I am insisting on complete honesty in sharing our emotions and feelings. My question is: What is doing it too much, how receptive were you early on to questions? I want to keep that part going but also be upbeat and normal -- that's the right approach? I think if I over emphasize it too much every day it becomes a negative. What are you thoughts on that?

3. In your view, what will be the signs that it is dead? How do I recognize her coming out of the fog? Are there significant stages? 

Thank you again.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Machiavelli: Thanks. That's quite an interesting article. I was quite concerned that it would slide into that -- after all, the best sex is from strong emotional bonds. My wife is beautiful, attractive and sexy - she looks 15 yrs younger than she is. The AP is not really that attractive and quite overweight, but she would be cute if she lost 40 pounds. But the physical aspect isn't important when the emotional bonds are so intense. So I could see that all happening given enough time, exactly as you said, at time of intoxication and more complete alienation from me. When I finally got access to texts I saw that AP was setting me up as "the bad guy", subtle yet consistent. I had thought that was happening and was right.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Iheartlife: I will get the "friends" book right away. I think this will help. You are spot on. My wife is having a difficult time with the idea that it was an "affair" and not just some special bonding like a best friend she had when she was a child. She sees it and doesn't at the same time. Or rather, she sees that that is what it was/is, but is having a very, very difficult time accepting that is what she has done. But it is starting to hit home. 

Got his/hers needs today, was debating on the 5 languages, but guess I'll get that as well. 

Thanks for the input!!!!


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Sigma 1229: Did you experience "confusion" and "vaccilation" in understanding and recognizing what you had done by engaging in the EA? If so, how long to stat to get clarity, or is that just part of the fog?


----------



## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

She needs a counselor. While your W may not have had sexual or romantic feelings toward the OW, she had a deep friendship. She'll be mourning that and she won't know how to talk to you and open up to you about it. Whether the AP was a woman or a man doesn't matter. What matters is the loss of friendship, support, and comfort that she got from that relationship, which is going to be standing in the way of you two re-connecting. If you're really worried about her vulnerability, then I suggest you help her find a good therapist (either MC or IC). She needs to feel safe in order to open up to you and, right now, you're the one who has taken away her friend, so she doesn't feel safe. You did the right thing and you should follow the same guidelines about keeping your W and OW apart. You should be kind to your wife, too. Try your best to connect with her positively and make her see that you love her. Don't allow her to slip up in terms of contact with this AP; be vigilant and be ready to enforce whatever boundaries you've established. However, don't let her languish in a void...be the person she wants to turn to, so that you can both rebuild your relationship.


----------



## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

feelingallalone said:


> Sigma 1299: Thank you, very valuable input for me. I have a few questions if you would:
> 
> 1. In the first week after DDay, how did you process the conflicting emotions, how aware of being in the fog were you? I told my wife she is in the fog, gave her some stuff to read explaining it. Do you think more of that will help?


I knew I was really messed up but I didn't recognize it as "the fog" until many months later. It would have saved me a lot of turmoil had I had this site early on to explain it to me. I processed it by making the conscious decision to ignore the pain and conflicting emotions because I knew what I really wanted. I knew that I loved and wanted my wife, that the whole EA had been a miserable screw up on my part. I accepted the pain as stupid tax for cheating and poured my efforts into my wife and marriage. 



feelingallalone said:


> 2. I intend to about it each day, remind her of NC, ask her how she feels. She is now comfortable talking about what she calls "mourning the loss". I listen. I see this as a sign that she is turning back to me emotionally. It is a tricky balance to "keep her aware" without her feeling I am lording it over her. She has opened up, and I want to keep that coming. I am insisting on complete honesty in sharing our emotions and feelings. My question is: What is doing it too much, how receptive were you early on to questions? I want to keep that part going but also be upbeat and normal -- that's the right approach? I think if I over emphasize it too much every day it becomes a negative. What are you thoughts on that?


To me the biggest thing here is to make sure you TALK. Don't berate her or torture her. Ask her what you need to and want to know about, but when she triggers you - and she will - try not to attack her. IMO you'll be hard pressed to talk about it too much - especially early on - as long as you keep it constructive. 



feelingallalone said:


> 3. In your view, what will be the signs that it is dead? How do I recognize her coming out of the fog? Are there significant stages?


Coming out of the fog is like over coming a drug addiction. It just gets easier every day and fades away. The thing is she can fake being over it and there is really not much way to know as long as she abides by no contact. If she plays by the rules of the reconciliation you really can't know if the AP is completely out of her heart or not. This is where trust comes back in.





feelingallalone said:


> Sigma 1229: Did you experience "confusion" and "vaccilation" in understanding and recognizing what you had done by engaging in the EA? If so, how long to stat to get clarity, or is that just part of the fog?


No I didn't have this. My EA was everything but actual sex, there was no mistaking it for an over zealous friendship - we were into phone sex, I love you's, ect.... It was a five alarm EA. I experienced lots of confusion in coming to terms with what I had done, but none in recognizing it as cheating. I also experienced no desire to go back to the affair. I was fogged up to hell and back, but as I said above, I knew what I wanted and focused on that. 

Her being willing to talk about openly is a very good sign IMO. Keep it out in the open and deal with it. Take advantage of both of you being out of your comfort zones to really explore and work on what's going on with her and your marriage.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

feelingallalone said:


> Iheartlife: I will get the "friends" book right away. I think this will help. You are spot on. My wife is having a difficult time with the idea that it was an "affair" and not just some special bonding like a best friend she had when she was a child. She sees it and doesn't at the same time. Or rather, she sees that that is what it was/is, but is having a very, very difficult time accepting that is what she has done. But it is starting to hit home.
> 
> Got his/hers needs today, was debating on the 5 languages, but guess I'll get that as well.
> 
> Thanks for the input!!!!


5 Languages is short, and it has a super quick online questionnaire that you could get almost anyone to fill out, so it helps you get a jump start on this stuff while you read the other books.

BTW, our MC just recommended Not Just Friends for my SPOUSE to read (I have already read it) so the two of you reading it together would be a great way to go. It of course assumes opposite-sex relationships, but as we've discussed gender is irrelevant when it comes to a secret on-the-side relationship.

The mourning period can last a while. They say it takes at least 6 weeks for the bonding hormones to START to wear off. And any contact can restart the clock.

My husband cried buckets of tears after DD#1. I had a great deal of compassion for him because even though he was crying for the loss of the AP, it was clear how incredibly painful NC was, and I really loved my husband and hated seeing him hurt. The bummer was, I didn't know about TAM or how affairs worked, so I just thought oh, he has to work through this pain but then he'll get to the other side. When in reality, he reached a point where he couldn't stand it any longer (about 4 to 6 weeks post DD#1) and sent her a short fishing email. A week went by, then they had a little more contact. By 8 or 9 weeks post DD#1 they were right back where they left off as if nothing had happened.

One problem you may have is consequences. You said yourself you don't have much in terms of exposure options. Divorce that's just a threat is generally not enough to stop resumption of contact when they're in the throes of addiction. Not sure what you said to her about divorce that shook her out of it this second time, but you have to make that stick or you will never get out of this nightmare.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Moxy: Thanks for your input. She came home from work last night seriously depressed. Cried on my shoulder because she missed her AP so much. This happened two times within a half hour. I too have a great deal of compassion for her, simply because I love her so much. But today I realize it is starting to rapidly wane. 

She was sort of out of it. Kinda distant. I talked to her about seeing an IC, she is totally not interested. This didn't surprise me, it's the way she is, I'm pretty much the same way, although I did try to persuade her of the benefits. The insurance will cover it for awhile under mental health, so it's not a financial issue. 

I'm exhausted over all of this. She seems totally self-absorbed in her "mourning". 

If I discover contact, I will file for divorce. She knows that...I just can't live in this type of marriage. Just can't believe it changed so quickly. Difficult to truly wrap my mind around all of this.

Showed her the books I got (his needs/her needs and not just frieds), when she saw the reference to "affair" and "infidelity" in the subtitles she made a face and seemed a bit resentful...she knows she has done something wrong, but since there was no PA, can't accept it as cheating. She's in denial. I don't see how we move forward.

While I'm trying to be supportive as all heck, it should be the other way around, no? I'm not seeing that at all. She's in mourning and I'm being supportive but she's the one that has done wrong. I'm doing all the lifting...naw, just can't do it this way any longer. 

I still can't believe what has happened and changed so much in 4 short months.

What a nightmare, what a nightmare. 

I know, I know... time for the 180....


----------



## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

You're pretty much right in all of the above. 

I'm curious though of a little more detail. EA's aren't like sex, there is no definitive line in the sand - they are much more shades of grey. You said in you opening post that her AP had the desire to take it PA and your wife didn't - did your wife know her AP wanted it to go PA? How deep of an EA was it? How long did it go on?

I only ask because we can't evaluate how deeply in denial she is by not accepting she did something wrong because we don''t really know what she did wrong. I mean, confiding too much with another female friend is a far cry from saying I love you and sexting. I think more information will help us give you more constructive and appropriate opinions.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> You're pretty much right in all of the above.
> 
> I'm curious though of a little more detail. EA's aren't like sex, there is no definitive line in the sand - they are much more shades of grey. You said in you opening post that her AP had the desire to take it PA and your wife didn't - did your wife know her AP wanted it to go PA? How deep of an EA was it? How long did it go on?
> 
> I only ask because we can't evaluate how deeply in denial she is by not accepting she did something wrong because we don''t really know what she did wrong. I mean, confiding too much with another female friend is a far cry from saying I love you and sexting. I think more information will help us give you more constructive and appropriate opinions.


I'm assuming with these questions you aren't minimizing the idea that someone could be in an intense very non-sexual EA that is very damaging to the marriage, just that you are trying to get an understanding of what his wife is going through right now? Because of course the part of it that made it an EA was the secrecy and lies, the forming of a partnership with someone outside the marriage who was the repository of hopes, dreams, fears, etc. while keeping her spouse in the dark.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Sigma 1299: Fair enough. Here goes.

This went on for a little over 4 months. Extremely intense. They texted anywhere from 50 to 200 texts a day, depending on what there work allowed. It was usually my W's first text in the morning and last at night. In fact, except for occasional texts to family, etc, all (about 95%) were to the AP. 

The AP and her were together just about whenever my wife's schedule allowed. Often times at our house. When I objected to this, they started to meet after my wife got off work, just for an hour or hour 1/2 and my wife would lie about why she had to work OT. 

I could tell it was out of hand and knew it was an intense EA by the way my W acted toward her. The look in her eye, how she talked, etc.; and by the resulting change in how she acted toward me. The AP was sucking all the emotional energy out of the marriage.

I caught here lying to me and learned the depth of the "connection" with mileage checks and a VAR. What I heard on the VAR was a short 1+ minute conversation where my wife was saying goodbye (before coming home and lying that she had to work OT)

My wife said "I love you" about 5 times. But it was not just what she said, it was how she said it. And how she said the other words. When I heard that, I knew things had progressed to an very intense state. 

The text messages I finally got to read after confronting her were more disturbing. Too many "I love you", and one where just the day before my W called the AP "my love". 

Another where the AP said "I'll see you in my dreams tonight" 

There's more....trust me. No sexting, but I believe the relationship was getting very close to becoming a sexual one; the AP is a lesbian, and it was only a matter of time before my W would succumb to the emotional intensity -- I think. The language had become romantic although not sexual. There's a few other items I don't really want to go into. I know that the AP wanted sex but it hadn't yet happened as a text from the previous day referenced a "spat" where it was obvious that the AP had made a "move" and my W had gotten mad. The messages were about making up. I don't want to get into all the details on how I know the relationship wasn't consummated. It is a red herring for this discussion. 

There was only 6 days of texts on the phone...but it was enough. 

I can't go into all the details, but suffice it to say, I had a 3rd person coming into my marriage and I was on the outside looking in. AP was subtly painting me as the "bad guy." In the past month my W even started "remembering" our marriage differently....it was extremely weird....

So if sexting makes it a 5 alarm EA, I would say my wife was at a 4 alarm EA. They were not just best friends.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Also, on DDay after reading the texts I asked my wife if she was in love with AP. She said "I'm confused, she's a woman". In short, my wife's motivation and attraction in all this was emotional, not sexual, so she was in a state of confusion about that and the idea of 'love". 

when this started, she had been going to school full time and working full time, she was burned out and our relation a bit strained, so she and the marriage were vulnerable. It doesn't excuse it, but that's where the opening came.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I'm assuming with these questions you aren't minimizing the idea that someone could be in an intense very non-sexual EA that is very damaging to the marriage, just that you are trying to get an understanding of what his wife is going through right now? Because of course the part of it that made it an EA was the secrecy and lies, the forming of a partnership with someone outside the marriage who was the repository of hopes, dreams, fears, etc. while keeping her spouse in the dark.


iheartlife: yes you are absolutely right. It is all of that, plus the romantic stuff that was happening. A few weeks ago when I told my wife our communication was drying up -- that I was trying to connect and talk to her and she wasn't responding -- she actually said "perhaps we don't have anything in common anymore". I was floored....in 24 years up until this EA started we always had lots to talk about, we were playful, we laughed with each other.

That's what I mean about her starting to view the marriage differently. But you see, my W and the AP are in the same exact profession, work at the same place (different shifts, different units) and as my wife said "we have the same interests, goals, etc." 

So all of a sudden, because I didn't work where she did and have the same profession, we "didn't have anything in common anymore". Her thinking was so twisted, it was all about her and the AP.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm glad to see you aren't trying to minimize that there might have been a sexual component to their relationship. They may not have crossed the line into a PA, but that your wife was vulnerable to this.

What is the situation with her job? You can't have NC if they still work with each other.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

iheartlife: the job poses a problem. They only have 1 day overlapping, and work in different units. Our health insurance is through that job. My wife graduates in 3 weeks and has secured another job, but it will not start until July. I realize the issues with NC and the job. It's one reason why right now I'm not optimistic about everything at all. Although I just got a text from W apologizing for last night. 

She can't quit the job, our finances our extremely tight...while the relationship is more important than money, I have two kids in college and one in middle, and we need a roof over our head and food on the table, etc. Part of the strain of the last 2 years is my drop in income. I used to make a lot and now can't get anything near what I used to...so the finances are strained. Speaking of which, I need to get back to work.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

feelingallalone said:


> iheartlife: the job poses a problem. They only have 1 day overlapping, and work in different units. Our health insurance is through that job. My wife graduates in 3 weeks and has secured another job, but it will not start until July. I realize the issues with NC and the job. It's one reason why right now I'm not optimistic about everything at all. Although I just got a text from W apologizing for last night.
> 
> She can't quit the job, our finances our extremely tight...while the relationship is more important than money, I have two kids in college and one in middle, and we need a roof over our head and food on the table, etc. Part of the strain of the last 2 years is my drop in income. I used to make a lot and now can't get anything near what I used to...so the finances are strained. Speaking of which, I need to get back to work.


Sorry if I missed this--do you have GPS on her phone so you can track her still? Do you have a VAR in the car in case she uses a burner phone? This is to reduce your anxiety while you wait that eternity until July.

Can you have lunch with her every day or most days while she's working?

Normally no one around here would recommend that you babysit your wife 24/7, but you have the unusual situation of an EA that she wont' acknowledge is an EA and even people who've been in EAs may try to argue that it doesn't qualify. It does put you in a uniquely dangerous, vulnerable situation.

Also sorry if I missed this--Did you follow Will Kane's advice and have her write an NC letter in front of you that you delivered to the AP (certified mail)? If she won't write one, that is another bad sign.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

And the elephant in the room, do you think she's attracted to women or in denial about this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> I'm assuming with these questions you aren't minimizing the idea that someone could be in an intense very non-sexual EA that is very damaging to the marriage, just that you are trying to get an understanding of what his wife is going through right now? Because of course the part of it that made it an EA was the secrecy and lies, the forming of a partnership with someone outside the marriage who was the repository of hopes, dreams, fears, etc. while keeping her spouse in the dark.


No not trying to minimize at all. I just wanted to confirm that she had formed a partnership with her AP rather than assume it from the OP's first post. On the lower end of the scale what I call an EA another might call just a really close friendship - I wanted a better idea of how egregious the relationship was before I responded again. 

Feeling - You gave more than enough info for me to get the understanding I was after - thanks - hope I didn't pry too much. Based on your description there is no way she shouldn't recognize the relationship as bad. I can see where she might be confused because it was with another woman and presumably she has never (still doesn't??) had romantic feelings toward another woman, but that doesn't change what it was. The fact is she did have romantic feelings for someone else - who also happened to be a woman. You don't need me to tell you that the relationship was bad - you clearly understand that but your wife does not. Here's the thing - you have nothing to reconcile until she accepts that she has cheated. Additionally beyond just accepting it, she has to take ownership of it and be willing to be held accountable for it. Without these things reconciliation is an exercise in futility. If she doesn't accept what she's done she can't reconcile with you for it because deep down she won't believe she's done anything to reconcile for - it will all be lip service. Does that make sense?

IMO you need to toughen up on her. I would no more sit there and listen to her talk about missing and pining for her AP than I'd let her stab me in the heart. Yes she's in pain and she's suffering - and if you feel like it it's better if you can be supportive and understanding, but there's a big difference between being understanding that she's hurt and letting her bleed all over you. Example - if you see her sulking or sighing deeply, signs that she's clearly mourning the loss of the affair - supportive is not attacking her about what you know she's thinking but trying not to show you. The next time she talks about her AP I'd tell her to shut the F up unless she's answering a question you asked. In the first year after my EA I never brought up my AP unless my wife asked something - never ever. That woman has no place any where in your world. If your wife can't banish her from her heart and mind yet she needs to damn well keep it to herself. Always remember her pain is self inflicted - she needs to feel it - it is stupid tax. When you screw up in life your supposed to get smacked - this is her getting smacked. She earned it, she has to pay it. 

IMO you've got two potential courses to get her to wrap her head around what she's done. One is counseling, which you say she is uninterested in (which is BS by the way - she needs to be interested in whatever you need - another sign she's not anywhere near to real reconciliation). The other is to go talk to an attorney and let her know it - possibly going as far as to have divorce papers drawn up and put them and a pen on the table. I'm not suggesting that you should divorce her at all, but the shock of seeing you put divorce papers and a pen on the table could - should - be a huge wake up call. The only caveat to the divorce papers is don't do that unless you are prepared to actually go through with it if necessary. If you play that card and she doesn't pull her head out of her ass and you don't divorce her you will have just given her your balls in a velvet bag and will have no credibility left. 

As you said - time for the 180. You've got to show her what she will lose if she doesn't snap out of this.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

iheartlife: I am in process of getting new phone for her. Will have gps and will be able to track that. I'm not going to put spyware in it though. VAR is out of car. Was compromised for DDay. Debating whether or not to put in again a bit later and GPS tracker for reason as you stated. Lunch not possible for several reasons. Yet, if it rekindles, it will be further underground. I know this. So why spin my wheels and waste time on the obvious? 

I am tired of spying. I don't want to babysit. I want to focus on me and getting the relationship built back up. If it rekindles I will find out at some point, by my gut and spot checks as I might feel necessary. I think I will also be able to tell by how she engages with me...but we'll see. Don't get me wrong, I'm keeping a keen eye. I know the chances of reconnecting are high. But if I have to live in a state of constant surveillance, then the marriage does not really have a chance. 

She has to acknowledge what she has done. That is the next step. If that doesn't happen, well, then it is pointless. I think she is almost there. Again, she's processing, I can see that, and she has acknowledged it intellectually but not yet emotionally - not fully. But it has to happen soon. I will know it when it truly happens.


As to the elephant in the room. No, I don't think so at all. While I realize women are flexible in that (see Machiavelli link above) and my wife is a woman so the EA was very susceptible to going that way, that is not really her orientation. We've had a very strong and close relationship over the years, we've even talked about that. Without such strong emotional drivers, I don't see her going there. Again, for her it was really emotionally driven. I am very clear on that.


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Sigma: It is a bit odd, it didn't bother me or hurt me or make me angry that she cried and told me what she felt. Although, I can only do that for a bit. My anger and resentment and hurt are about my wife's actions, I don't really give a s**t about the AP. Although I really don't want to hear much about her, if anything. 

I am glad she turned to me for her grief, that is, she was returning to me emotionally, she was being honest. Those are very important steps IMHO. Especially the honesty. I don't think she will do much more of it, she was apologizing to me for doing it at the same time she was doing it. If I know my wife at all, I know she will start to handle it herself. I will re open the IC issue, last night was not a good night for that discussion. 

I am emphasizing that we both need to be honest - it is the only way to get everything out, release it, and start to rebuild trust. That means we will probably both hear stuff we don't want to. But that is how we will move forward. I am not interested in punishing her, she will punish herself enough. I do not seek vengeance. I seek true acknowledgement and remorse, and then healing for the both of us. If I stay bitter and angry, it will either only slow down reconciliation or kill the marriage. 

Keep in mind that anger and hatred only corrode the vessel that carries them. 

That said, you are absolutely right on her emotionally and truly acknowledging what she has done. That is what I'm waiting for...see my note above to iheartlife.

On confrontation for breaking NC, the divorce issue was laid down very clearly. Actually, just moments before I confronted her on NC breaking, she saw in the browser history that I had signed up for a no contest divorce online ...pretty much had the same impact as laying the papers before her - I had some stuff printed out that I never had to use because of that. In fact, I said no to a 2nd chance, that we had to go ahead...that is when she finally opened up...it all it her and the deception stopped, the gas lighting stopped and I got a lot of honest outpouring. That is what I was looking for....

She knows I'm serious. She knows I will not tolerate a rekindling of the relationship. But she also knows I want the marriage to work. 

The 180, work on myself, is long overdue. I've been in the "dumps" for awhile now. It was already an issue between us. Again, just helped set up the situation in general. 

I still have a lot to process and work out myself. Still got the emotional ****tail brewing...inside...but I simply want to release it all as soon as I can, not let these bad emotions simmer or get stuffed down. That will only do myself harm. 

Thanks so much for all your input Sigma...it helps a lot.


----------



## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

What led to all of this? was their a marital breakdown?


----------



## feelingallalone (Apr 2, 2012)

Complexity: this will be my last post. I just received the acknowledgment I needed. We can move into reconciliation. I will not be back unless we have a set back. Those of you who helped me can PM if you want an update or have other thoughts. Will delete the post tomorrow.

No, the marriage wasn't in or near breakdown mode, we both would agree to that. But it was under multiple stresses. As follows in no particular order: 

1. Financial stress

2. Lack of time together (my W was working full time, going to school full time for almost 2 years, I was working and doing all the parenting, house stuff etc - felt like a single parent)

3. Both my wife and I were frustrated at my lack of getting a new career going as I really couldn't go back to what I was doing before...

4. My wife was burnt out with her intense load...between classes, work and study, she was putting in 90 hour weeks. 

5. All this meant we weren't communicating as well as we usually do. 

But we knew once she graduated things would ease up, more income would be coming in, I can work more hours with less house husband duties, debts were being eased up, we were pushing through. 

It just happened. We talked tonight, it really was fast and took on a life of it's own. She has taken responsibility for her choices of late. She knows it was wrong, a betrayal, an affair. She's taken ownership of that.


----------

