# Women and romance / erotica



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I posted another thread on women and porn, but at least for me erotica is a different story. 

I am not at all bothered by the idea of my wife watching porn, though she doesn't as far as I know. I do find it a little disheartening that she watches / reads romance / mildly erotic fiction. To me romantic fiction is not as obviously fake as porn, so it seems to be more likely to be used as a comparison with real life. 

Characters in romances can have impossible combinations of traits: He is a poor musician - who just happens to live in a loft with a beautiful view of Central Park. Or various other improbable combinations.

Early on our relationship my wife complained about my not being "romantic" while never being able to describe what it was she wanted - I think she never understood the constraints of being poor (which I was at the time).

So I'm wondering how other men and women feel about romance and whether they find that it presents such unrealistic images of life that it interferes with real relationships.


To be clear, I'd never as my wife to stop reading romances - any issues with this are mine, not hers.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I don't watch porn or read romance novels, but I would far far rather a spouse read a book than looked at porn. 
You say that porn is obviously fake? If that is the case then why do so many look at it if they know the women are just acting? Why do they then become discontent with their wives for just being a normal woman? Why do so many men start to believe that all women should be gagging for sex and ready to do any degrading things they have seen on the porn?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

*


Diana7 said:



I don't watch porn or read romance novels, but I would far far rather a spouse read a book than looked at porn. 
You say that porn is obviously fake? If that is the case then why do so many look at it if they know the women are just acting? Why do they then become discontent with their wives for just being a normal woman? Why do so many men start to believe that all women should be gagging for sex and ready to do any degrading things they have seen on the porn?

Click to expand...

*When I watched porn I could not look at "mainstream" porn. I watched amateur porn (couples mainly) because I could not identify with what you mentioned above. When I discovered that my wife was watching porn and reading erotica it was a major blow to the ego because there was no way I could compete with any of that. It was a humbling experience that changed the way I viewed pornography. I see it as destructive all the way around in any form. I am not really interested in debating that point. I know I am better off without it in my life personally and I know my relationship is better off without it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

RClawson said:


> When I watched porn I could not look at "mainstream" porn. I watched amateur porn (couples mainly) because I could not identify with what you mentioned above. When I discovered that my wife was watching porn and reading erotica it was a major blow to the ego because there was no way I could compete with any of that. *It was a humbling experience that changed the way I viewed pornography. I see it as destructive all the way around in any form.* I am not really interested in debating that point. I know I am better off without it in my life personally and I know my relationship is better off without it.


Totally agree with the bolded.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I posted another thread on women and porn, but at least for me erotica is a different story.
> 
> I am not at all bothered by the idea of my wife watching porn, though she doesn't as far as I know. I do find it a little disheartening that she watches / reads romance / mildly erotic fiction. To me romantic fiction is not as obviously fake as porn, so it seems to be more likely to be used as a comparison with real life.
> 
> ...


It's probably some mental block that I have but I can't watch porn without laughing.The "actors and actresses"are so fake that I feel it's a comedy movie rather than porn.I once seen a porn movie that someone had dubbed two people discussing the relative merits of cycling versus walking to work and it was hilarious.However the sad thing is that a lot of the women in the porn industry are feeding drug habits or even convincing themselves that it is a way into mainstream acting.I have no problem with my gf watching porn but I honestly have never seen her watch it or even discussed it with her.She does love sloppy romantic stories though both books and film.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RClawson said:


> When I watched porn I could not look at "mainstream" porn. I watched amateur porn (couples mainly) because I could not identify with what you mentioned above. When I discovered that my wife was watching porn and reading erotica it was a major blow to the ego because there was no way I could compete with any of that. It was a humbling experience that changed the way I viewed pornography. I see it as destructive all the way around in any form. I am not really interested in debating that point. I know I am better off without it in my life personally and I know my relationship is better off without it.


Yes I agree. If my husband looked at porn it would deeply damage our sex life and intimacy. My feelings for him would be badly affected, I would loose my respect for him and I would question if I wanted to be with him any more.
Do I expect too much? Maybe, but I would rather be single than be with a man who acted that way. 

Does you wife still look at it?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My wife has never read any romance novels, and has no interest in watching porn. The little we've seen lacks any real passion as far as I'm concerned, even if it can trigger a hormonal rush - which isn't a bad thing in the right circumstances. We have a friend who is a very successful author of romance novels (about 30 so far) - and while we've skimmed a couple of her books, they are pretty bad so we couldn't stand to read them even for research. Do you know that sales in the romance genre alone is almost as large as every other genre combined? There is a HUGE market for this stuff!

On the other hand, my wife has just finished writing her second erotic novel (they are actually psychological studies, but you wouldn't pick up on that, I think), and is looking for an agent. She has a lot of talent - and imagination! The latter may be part of the reason our sex life is so good. She's also written a couple of children's books, is a third of the way through writing a detective novel, and is in the process of outlining a sci-fi trilogy that she plans to write next.

I wouldn't be bothered if she did read romances/erotica, or watched porn, because she clearly knows the difference between reality and fantasy. Besides, our real lives have more authentic romance than the novels, just as our real sex life has more authentic eroticism than any porn I've ever seen. But these genres are so popular for a reason, and I think it's because romance and passion are missing or lacking in so many people's lives, so it provides a surrogate for the real thing that they miss. Or maybe it gives a boost to a weak libido, and that can help a marriage, IMO.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> So I'm wondering how other men and women feel about romance and whether they find that it presents such unrealistic images of life that it interferes with real relationships.
> 
> 
> To be clear, I'd never as my wife to stop reading romances - any issues with this are mine, not hers.


It doesn't bother me, my wife can and does read whatever she likes. That said she's not really into Mills and Boon type books and gave up trying to read Fifty Shades of Grey, because she found it to be unconvincing, and hated the writing style.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Yes I agree. If my husband looked at porn it would deeply damage our sex life and intimacy. My feelings for him would be badly affected, I would loose my respect for him and I would question if I wanted to be with him any more.
> Do I expect too much? Maybe, but I would rather be single than be with a man who acted that way.
> 
> *Does you wife still look at it?*


I do not believe she watches but she still reads erotica. She does not know I know. I should state that there was a lengthy period of time in our relationship that she did not have sex with me unless she read from her book beforehand. Therein lied the insecurity.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

You find romance impossible, but not porn? :scratchhead: Interesting.

They are both about fantasy and escape and achieving the impossible, aren't they?

I was never one to dream about being whisked away by a knight in shining armor on a white horse, but it isn't really all that different from dreaming about flying off an living on another planet. At least in my books.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For me (and maybe only me), porn is obviously unrealistic - at least mainstream stuff. Some amateur porn is realistic, but also shows things that ARE reasonable to do / expect. Romance (depending on the type) seems more subtly unrealistic to me. 

Of course there are people who think pro porn is real, and that would give them a terrible idea about sex. There are also people who recognize that romance is completely unrealistic. 

I guess what bothers me about romance is not she specifics of the white knight, or noble gun-slinger, but the way it makes real world romance seem mundane. 

Again, I'm not saying that women (including my wife ) shouldn't watch / read romance - really just considering my odd reaction to it. 





wild jade said:


> You find romance impossible, but not porn? :scratchhead: Interesting.
> 
> They are both about fantasy and escape and achieving the impossible, aren't they?
> 
> I was never one to dream about being whisked away by a knight in shining armor on a white horse, but it isn't really all that different from dreaming about flying off an living on another planet. At least in my books.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

RClawson said:


> When I watched porn I could not look at "mainstream" porn. I watched amateur porn (couples mainly) because I could not identify with what you mentioned above. When I discovered that my wife was watching porn and reading erotica it was a major blow to the ego because there was no way I could compete with any of that. It was a humbling experience that changed the way I viewed pornography. I see it as destructive all the way around in any form. I am not really interested in debating that point. I know I am better off without it in my life personally and I know my relationship is better off without it.


I agree with you about not watching porn but not for the same reasons.To me porn is a joke,with sad "actors" and even sadder "actresses".What I don't understand is why you would feel your wife would be judging your performance in bed in comparison to the "stars" of the movie.If you play golf or tennis or swim or any other activity,if it was on tv would you feel your wife was comparing you unfavourably to Rory McIlroy or Roger Federer etc.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I personally had never read a romance novel until I discovered Diana Gabladon about 15 years ago (Outlander series). Her writing was so riveting to me, that the romance was just part of the story. That being said, was it a turn on when the story went sexual? Yep, it was. Did I realize it was fiction? Yep.

I still don't read romance novels, but there is my take on your question.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> For me (and maybe only me), porn is obviously unrealistic - at least mainstream stuff. Some amateur porn is realistic, but also shows things that ARE reasonable to do / expect. Romance (depending on the type) seems more subtly unrealistic to me.
> 
> Of course there are people who think pro porn is real, and that would give them a terrible idea about sex. There are also people who recognize that romance is completely unrealistic.
> 
> ...


All fantasy makes real life mundane. That's the point. Pure escapism. But most of us can tell the difference. We may kinda wish there were no laws of physics, consequences to our actions, pain, loss, rejection .... but we all pretty much know better. 

Just like porn, most romance is totally ridiculous and unrealistic. But of course, there's also the more realistic stories, where it isn't all shining armor and happily ever after.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Again, I'm not saying that women (including my wife ) shouldn't watch / read romance - really just considering my odd reaction to it.


Was thinking on this more, and it occurred to me that it's very easy for us to have our fantasies and view them as entirely non-threatening, just a bit of harmless fun. It's more uncomfortable when we know our loved ones are fantasizing. Because, then, all of a sudden it's an issue. How do I fit into that fantasy? Do I even? 

I know I've thought less than flattering things about my husband. But much more devastating if he's thinking less than flattering things about me. Not fair. But there it is.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I don't really put ''erotica'' in the same category as ''romance.'' I don't read romance novels, but we all fantasize...and one of my fantasies is that my fiance is sleeping with other women. I wouldn't want that to happen in reality lol but it's a fantasy, and I've shared that with him. He doesn't like that I think about this during sex, but Idk why, it's very exciting to me as a fantasy. In reality, not so much, but some fantasies should remain fantasies. I don't really have an issue if my fiance were to view porn but, think where the issue comes in, is if the porn or the fantasy life were to be preferred over having sex with me. I think that is why many women have issues with porn in general, because their husbands seem to prefer it over them, which would be sad to think about.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Characters in romances can have impossible combinations of traits: He is a poor musician - who just happens to live in a loft with a beautiful view of Central Park. Or various other improbable combinations.
> 
> Early on our relationship my wife complained about my not being "romantic" while never being able to describe what it was she wanted - I think she never understood the constraints of being poor (which I was at the time).
> 
> So I'm wondering how other men and women feel about romance and whether they find that it presents such unrealistic images of life that it interferes with real relationships.



Add to the rock stars who are impossibly built and instantly fall in love, the billionaires who are impossibly built and instantly fall in love, the motorcycle gang bad boys who are impossibly built and instantly fall in love, the impossibly built space aliens who instantly fall in love, the mafia bosses who are impossibly built and instantly fall in love.... are we seeing the pattern yet? 

Now here is the rest of the pattern, in every single $2.00 romance: 
1. passion that cannot be contained, 
2. angst that would put a moody teenager to shame, and gestures. 
3.Gestures that include 
A. over protectiveness, 
B. wide open daily schedule in order to go out of his way to be there when she needs him before she realizes she needs him
C. Gifts
D. Assorted acts of pampering

So if your girl wants you to be romantic, pick two things off that list and tailor them to your budget and your schedule. But don't skimp on the passion.






Diana7 said:


> I don't watch porn or read romance novels, but I would far far rather a spouse read a book than looked at porn.
> You say that porn is obviously fake? If that is the case then why do so many look at it if they know the women are just acting? Why do they then become discontent with their wives for just being a normal woman? Why do so many men start to believe that all women should be gagging for sex and ready to do any degrading things they have seen on the porn?


Romance books are all about the woman being pursued in some form or another.
Visual porn is all about the man being entertained without any effort on his part. 
Both are examples of what each sex wants from the other sex.
Women want passion, romance, effort, gestures from men.
Men want desire, inhibition, and sexual confidence from women.

Men don't become discontent with their wives for being normal, but they do become discontent when their wives are prudish, lack sexual desire, and limit sexual experiences to only what the church approves of. There is nothing degrading about any sex act. If it turns them both on, it's wonderful. 

I get a lady boner when I see women in bondage. Most consider that degrading. I consider that sexy as hell!






RClawson said:


> When I watched porn I could not look at "mainstream" porn. I watched amateur porn (couples mainly) because I could not identify with what you mentioned above. When I discovered that my wife was watching porn and reading erotica it was a major blow to the ego because there was no way I could compete with any of that. It was a humbling experience that changed the way I viewed pornography. I see it as destructive all the way around in any form. I am not really interested in debating that point. I know I am better off without it in my life personally and I know my relationship is better off without it.


If your wife read something erotic, got turned on, then came on to you and wanted sex, would that feel wrong to you? 

My husband is thrilled when I jump on him because I read something that got me hot. He sees it as a total short cut to sex. 

I will never understand why people feel threatened by written or visual porn. It is the situation that stimulates, not the people involved.

Some women love bondage, most don't, some hate it. Bondage porn or bondage erotic reads will only arouse those who are into the situation. 




Diana7 said:


> Yes I agree. If my husband looked at porn it would deeply damage our sex life and intimacy. My feelings for him would be badly affected, I would loose my respect for him and I would question if I wanted to be with him any more.
> Do I expect too much? Maybe, but I would rather be single than be with a man who acted that way.
> 
> Does you wife still look at it?


Seriously? Do you feel the same way about romantic comedies? Do any movie stars make you sigh? Do you feel demeaned if your husband watches a James Bond flick?

You seem to be very inhibited and rather narrow and judgmental especially about sex. That is what makes a husband feel so frustrated. It has nothing to do with your figure or your appearance. Our attitudes about sex in marriage can make or break a marriage. What we look like or how clean the home, or how clever we are do not supersede sex.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

I don't read romance/erotica novels. Have no desire too. I prefer visual/auditory stimulation.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I wonder if the key is believing that your partner truly understands the difference between reality and fantasy. If women could be sure that their partner in no way expected them to act and respond the way porn stars pretend to. If men could be sure their partners didn't expect them to be handsome rock musician, brain surgeon physicists who save the world. 

When a relationship has problems, especially problems with intimacy, think its easy to imagine that one's partner is looking for fantasy not reality.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@uhtred

I'm guessing you'd be okay with tentacle porn? Cause there is no way your wife could expect you to grow a few more appendages that have prehensile qualities? How fun!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If only I could explain why that is so funny without telling too much about us. :laugh:






Anon Pink said:


> @uhtred
> 
> I'm guessing you'd be okay with tentacle porn? Cause there is no way your wife could expect you to grow a few more appendages that have prehensile qualities? How fun!


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I wonder if the key is believing that your partner truly understands the difference between reality and fantasy. If women could be sure that their partner in no way expected them to act and respond the way porn stars pretend to. If men could be sure their partners didn't expect them to be handsome rock musician, brain surgeon physicists who save the world.
> 
> When a relationship has problems, especially problems with intimacy, think its easy to imagine that one's partner is looking for fantasy not reality.


I would flip it around, and say that the key is to realize that we all fantasize and wish for things to be other than they are. It's part of human nature, and we need to give our partners the same latitude we give ourselves. 

It's true that some people are looking for only fantasy, and they will always be disappointed. But then so will those who are looking only for reality. LTRs are hard. You can't expect to feel exactly the same ways for however many years no matter how good a relationship it is.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think fantasy is a great thing, and even better if you can share with your partner. 

For those of us stuck in inexplicable low /no sex relationships though, it can seem like another potential cause of the problem - even though that is very unlikely. 




wild jade said:


> I would flip it around, and say that the key is to realize that we all fantasize and wish for things to be other than they are. It's part of human nature, and we need to give our partners the same latitude we give ourselves.
> 
> It's true that some people are looking for only fantasy, and they will always be disappointed. But then so will those who are looking only for reality. LTRs are hard. You can't expect to feel exactly the same ways for however many years no matter how good a relationship it is.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I think fantasy is a great thing, and even better if you can share with your partner.
> 
> For those of us stuck in inexplicable low /no sex relationships though, it can seem like another potential cause of the problem - even though that is very unlikely.


Is it inexplicable? Or are there a surplus of possible explanations, and you're just not sure which ones might apply?

I sympathize, though. It would make me very unhappy to be in a no/low sex relationship, and have my partner indulging in romance, erotica or porn. Worse if he had told me I wasn't romantic enough at some point. I totally get why you are having doubts .... 


I assume you've asked your wife about this? What does she say when it comes to her desires to read romance novels?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What she reads are stories with a strong romantic component, but which have enough non-romantic interest for that to be a reason to read them. I've even read some of the (sci-fi / fantasy) based ones and some are good stories. What that means though is that she doesn't consider them to be "romances". 

Its difficult to talk to her because she claims, and has probably even convinced herself that she enjoys sex, but just various things keep us from having sex on any particular occasion. It makes the conversation very difficult. 

She seems to lack desire for me. She has at various points over the years hinted that she wants romance to be more... well romantic. She is a smart woman and knows there are now knights on white horses etc, but I get the impression that deep down there is something she wants that doesn't really exist. 

She will tell me that I am very romantic - but it feels like she is saying "you do all sorts of romantic *things*", but that it is received more as a nice gesture than as *romance*. 

This may all be backwards, she may be trying to explain to herself why she feels so little desire for someone who rationally she thinks should be desirable. (Not that I'm Adonis reborn, but I'm generally considered attractive to women). 







wild jade said:


> Is it inexplicable? Or are there a surplus of possible explanations, and you're just not sure which ones might apply?
> 
> I sympathize, though. It would make me very unhappy to be in a no/low sex relationship, and have my partner indulging in romance, erotica or porn. Worse if he had told me I wasn't romantic enough at some point. I totally get why you are having doubts ....
> 
> ...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> What she reads are stories with a strong romantic component, but which have enough non-romantic interest for that to be a reason to read them. I've even read some of the (sci-fi / fantasy) based ones and some are good stories. What that means though is that she doesn't consider them to be "romances".
> 
> Its difficult to talk to her because she claims, and has probably even convinced herself that she enjoys sex, but just various things keep us from having sex on any particular occasion. It makes the conversation very difficult.
> 
> ...


It almost sounds like she likes the idea of sex and romance more than the sweaty sticky physicality of it. Is she an intellectual? Sometimes intellectuals are much more inclined to live in their heads and have trouble actually being in their bodies.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

uhtred said:


> What she reads are stories with a strong romantic component, but which have enough non-romantic interest for that to be a reason to read them. I've even read some of the (sci-fi / fantasy) based ones and some are good stories. What that means though is that she doesn't consider them to be "romances".
> 
> Its difficult to talk to her because she claims, and has probably even convinced herself that she enjoys sex, but just various things keep us from having sex on any particular occasion. It makes the conversation very difficult.
> 
> ...


this struck a nerve with me.... Early on in my M, my W expected dime store novel romance and sex. Made it almost physically impossible for me. My W is ~5'11" and it is hard for me to pick her up carry her around, for example. But this was her expectation, and I firmly believe it came from the books. (note: there were many more expectations and they were hard to impossible for me to physically do.....). This is still somewhat problematic, but not nearly what it was 20 years ago.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, I think that is a good description. She is an intellectual, as am I to some extent - I have more letters after my name, but am less likely to just spend an evening reading.

She does seem to like the *idea* of sex and romance. Its just that real life romance doesn't seem to work for her - maybe we need background music? She likes the idea of sex in the future - just not at the present time. 

This gets to the issue that I think she wants something else out of sex and romance, but can't really describe what that is - or more likely doesn't know herself.

Hollywood's portrayal of romantic sex is in some ways as bad as porn's. There is this image of passion without any of the sticky reality. (and sex in the crashing surf is really not a good idea.....).




wild jade said:


> It almost sounds like she likes the idea of sex and romance more than the sweaty sticky physicality of it. Is she an intellectual? Sometimes intellectuals are much more inclined to live in their heads and have trouble actually being in their bodies.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@uhtred

You're still missing it and maybe that's because your wife doesn't understand herself either.

If your wife enjoys sex when you two have sex it's not the sex that she isn't reacting to. Double negative there... it's not that she doesn't want sex because she doesn't like it. She doesn't want sex because she isn't turned on.

I know you've been around here long enough to be conversant on responsive desire. 

When she reads romance disguised as sci/fy or action adventure, she is being turned on *by the situation* she is reading about, they are all passion filled. Conflict and tension are key to written passion. Real life is tedious, repetitive and sometimes boring. Going to bed every night, same routine, same time, same side of the bed, predictable...not aroused.

Next time you two are out anywhere together, whisper in her ear exactly what you want to do to her. Do this several times. Whisper a sentence or two and then go back to being normal. Grocery shopping together, over produce whisper what you plan to do to her breasts with a straight face and then act as if you've just reminded her about a doctor's appointment. In dairy, whisper some more. One or two more times during this trip. When you get in the car tell her you want to check her panties to see if she is aroused.

This is an example of real life erotic tension and it may or may not work for your wife. It doesn't automatically lead to sex so don't expect it. Creating erotic tension is creating passion. Passion is not methodical, not predictable, not routine, not boring. You could replace the dirty talking build up with simple secret kisses that you sneak up on her than walk away from.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

My husbands ex used to get him to watch historical romance films with her, presumably because she wanted him to be like the mainly effeminate men in the films. There is no way that I would expect my husband to sit through something he hated. Just as he wouldn't expect me to sit through the sort of films he likes(sci-fi etc).

I have no desire to watch/read romance films/books. Nor does he watch porn. Both will set you up for discontment in your marriage, which is so destructive.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Yes I agree. *If my husband looked at porn it would deeply damage our sex life and intimacy.* My feelings for him would be badly affected, I would loose my respect for him and I would question if I wanted to be with him any more.
> Do I expect too much? Maybe, but I would rather be single than be with a man who acted that way.
> 
> Does you wife still look at it?


He does not look at porn because he does not need to. He has a loving sensuous wife. 

Change "that" about you, you change the dynamic.

Of course, some men have loving wives, some women have loving husbands and they still need artificial "outside" stimulation. This is reality. Unfortunate reality.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> .
> 
> I have no desire to watch/read romance films/books. Nor does he watch porn. *Both will set you up for discontment in your marriage, which is so destructive.*




You really need to stop making declarative statements like this because they are WRONG. They are your opinion which is fine. They are what seems to work for you, and while that's fine I'm pretty certain your sex life is wrapped around rigidity prompted by anxiety and that's not a long term happiness situation. Because what sets you up for discontent in a marriage is rigidity and inflexibility.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You are right that I'm missing something, but its not clear what. 

My wife does enjoy flirtatious comments, sudden unexpected kisses and suggestions about what we will do that evening. She doesn't like anything too explicit - in fact that is a rather fine line I need to walk - we exchanged coded naughty emails but I need to guess right whether she wants something mildly flirting or more explicit. She does get lots of surprise kisses. 

The problem is that after all the build-up, 90% of the time she will decide something means no sex that day. Usually a "I was hoping to get to bed, but I'm feeling tired". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the romance, flirting and build-up and am happy to do it without sex, but it doesn't usually lead to sex. 

What is strange is that sex almost always only happens when she follows a very specific, and to me completely unromantic pattern:

Sunday we do chores. Have lunch. She work s/ FB on the computer a bit. At some point she puts on lingerie and invites me to go to bed. 


Situations that I think of as romantic she appreciates, but never evolve towards sex: 

Holding her while watching the sun set over Venice from our hotel room balcony - she thinks is great, but afterwards wants to read. 

Fine dinner at our favorite place, cuddle on the sofa watching a romantic movie - then she wants to go to sleep.

She loves long massages - but no interest in sex afterwards (I only occasionally suggest it).

Cabins in the jungles of central mexico, 80th floor hotel rooms with views of cities at night, mountain lodges, B&Bs, tents in the Arabian desert, she loves all these places, but none are romantic in a sexual way for her.

Dinner, movies, music, walks on the beach, all great. 

Flowers by surprise, bits of jewelry, love notes, all appreciated. 



90% of the time we have sex its the sunday scenario I described. Almost all the rest of the time she initiates - but there is always the sense that she has found an efficient time to get that chore done. :frown2:


This all gives me the impression that there is something she wants but isn't getting. Its possible that she is conflicted by romance largely involves loss of control - being swept away in passion, but at the same time she is very controlling and afraid to relinquish control. The idea of being swept away in passion sounds nice but she can't bring herself to enjoy the reality. 






Anon Pink said:


> @uhtred
> 
> You're still missing it and maybe that's because your wife doesn't understand herself either.
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

uhtred said:


> I wonder if the key is believing that your partner truly understands the difference between reality and fantasy. *If women could be sure that their partner in no way expected them to act and respond the way porn stars pretend to. If men could be sure their partners didn't expect them to be handsome rock musician, brain surgeon physicists who save the world.
> 
> When a relationship has problems, especially problems with intimacy, think its easy to imagine that one's partner is looking for fantasy not reality.*


Isn't this the main thing...I wonder how many marriages actually suffer from "seeking fantasy" over just being realistic... meaning seeking a fulfilling spicy sex life but yet, it's so much less than that & they are legitimately frustrated...(Example.. wife won't try new things, she refuses to talk about any fantasies...or husband who is emotionally cold, too busy, all he seems to need is Sex but never gives any "afterglow" - the sentimental, the passionate, expressing how much his wife means to him)...

I certainly know the difference between fantasy & reality... yet I still want PASSION/ Romance in my marriage.. and he still wants an enthusiastic horn-dog wife -when we're in the act- and heck I need to feel his lust too! 



Anon Pink said:


> Romance books are all about the woman being pursued in some form or another.
> Visual porn is all about the man being entertained without any effort on his part.
> *Both are examples of what each sex wants from the other sex.
> Women want passion, romance, effort, gestures from men.
> ...


 ABSOLUTELY ...this is the crux of it.. 



> If your wife read something erotic, got turned on, then came on to you and wanted sex, would that feel wrong to you?
> 
> My husband is thrilled when I jump on him because I read something that got me hot. He sees it as a total short cut to sex.
> 
> ...


 My husband sees it the way you are speaking here.... never felt threatened by it ... he LOVES when I get turned on... he knows if I read a hot & steamy romance.. I will be ALL OVER HIM.. he knows if we lay down to watch an erotic movie.. same thing.. I'll be reaching for him ....

We don't need these externals to be turned on- which is important, obviously... but we aren't threatened by them either... it's never hurt our intimacy... 
If anything... some porn spiced things up for us years ago...it gave ME new ideas... things I wanted to try.. new places.. positions...it was good for us both (never hard core though!)...Sure I could have just gotten a Kama Sutra book..and did that too!! .. it's just that none of these things are off limits with us.. 

If he put these things before me.. or I was off doing myself while reading 50 Shades of Gray...this would be another story, taking that hit on our intimacy .... it's more that it may jump start our hormones.. but it always leads us to each other, getting lost in each other, this even intensifies the act ...

Sex Therapist Ian Kerner , author of Passionista  and She Comes First:  speaks on "sexual fantasy" in this article ...

>> Whatever dreams may come ... - TODAY.com



> The truth is, a healthy fantasy life is one key to a great sex life — and your partner might not always play the leading role. Fantasy isn’t the sad daydreaming of the lonely, forlorn or frustrated in love. Research shows that people with active fantasy lives are more sexually satisfied, more sexually responsive and more adventurous about sex in general. ..


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> He does not look at porn because he does not need to. He has a loving sensuous wife.
> 
> Change "that" about you, you change the dynamic.
> 
> Of course, some men have loving wives, some women have loving husbands and they still need artificial "outside" stimulation. This is reality. Unfortunate reality.


He wouldn't look at it anyway. He didn't look at it before he married his first wife at 25(no sex before that marriage), nor in the time between his first marriage ending and us getting married(no sex then either)

No one has to look at porn. Its a choice to do so.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> You really need to stop making declarative statements like this because they are WRONG. They are your opinion which is fine. They are what seems to work for you, and while that's fine I'm pretty certain your sex life is wrapped around rigidity prompted by anxiety and that's not a long term happiness situation. Because what sets you up for discontent in a marriage is rigidity and inflexibility.


That shows how wrong you can be. Having a sex life where its just the 2 of us, no one else involved through porn or erotica, is amazing and special. Its anything but rigid and totally free from any anxiety. I love having sex with my husband, and he with me. Its varied, its an expression of our love and I never refuse him sex nor he me. 
After nearly 12 years since we married I still love him to bits, there is no discontentment. I know I have married a very special man as few men stay away from porn these days which is so sad. :frown2: 
The fact that he does that makes me feel special, loved and respected. 

I could not be with a man who treated me that way, I would rather be single. 

Its very sad that anyone could think that without porn or erotica there can't be a great sex life. Use you imaginations.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I wonder if the key is believing that your partner truly understands the difference between reality and fantasy. If women could be sure that their partner in no way expected them to act and respond the way porn stars pretend to. If men could be sure their partners didn't expect them to be handsome rock musician, brain surgeon physicists who save the world.


This is sort of it, but I'll say it more directly.

When you are with a partner and you KNOW for certain that you are so into each other that sex happens regularly and you both love it, and you both clearly feel MUTUAL sexual attraction to each other........then porn or erotica isn't an issue.

When you BOTH feel this way, you KNOW you don't have any competition from porn or erotica.

When you don't both feel this way, then there will of course be problems, usually much deeper than porn or erotica.

I will never be with someone who I don't KNOW feels this way about me and who I don't feel this way about. It just isn't worth it to try to struggle to find common ground. If the strong mutual attraction and desire isn't there for each other, then too much effort is needed and it just never works.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I don't really put ''erotica'' in the same category as ''romance.'' I don't read romance novels, but we all fantasize...and *one of my fantasies is that my fiance is sleeping with other women.* I wouldn't want that to happen in reality lol but it's a fantasy, and I've shared that with him. He doesn't like that I think about this during sex, but Idk why, it's very exciting to me as a fantasy. In reality, not so much, but some fantasies should remain fantasies. I don't really have an issue if my fiance were to view porn but, think where the issue comes in, is if the porn or the fantasy life were to be preferred over having sex with me. I think that is why many women have issues with porn in general, because their husbands seem to prefer it over them, which would be sad to think about.


Many men have this same fantasy about their wives.

Why?

I suspect it comes from a "realllllllly" stong love for your mate. You love to satisfy your spouse, love it when he/she has that special look on their face. When they are in sexual ecstasy.

And it is a "safe" fantasy. If you dream of other men making love to you, that is infidelity. But thinking of your spouse having sex with another is infidelity by proxy. Some form of projection.

A lesser sin.
.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
It also may be a sign that *you do not feel your lover is really open to new sex methods, is prudish, is too conventional. *

*Are you getting vanilla sex from your fiancee/husband? By imagining him with other women, you get off on his imagined orgasm. His imagined pleasure. You vicariously and subconsciously want him to step up his game in the bedroom. You want more passion from him. This is a complex juxtaposition of bodily parts, mental images, mind shifting and carnal intentions on your part.*
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

When you picture him with one or two lovers, *you are in your fiancees/husbands head*, you are feeling his pleasure and his jaw clenching, back arching, toe curling orgasm. 
......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
For some, it could be a "desired" cause and excuse for them to seek pleasure outside the marriage. It is a way of mentally preparing your sub-conscious mind that separation is wanted and needed. Needed because you are HD....better put, you are horny and not quite satisfied in the bedroom. 

Welcome to the club. Most marriages eventually become less passionate, less romantic.

Ultimately, if your spouse "degrades" him/her self by "cheating" than you are free to leave the marriage/relationship. You love him intensely but need more sexual variety. Good luck.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> You are right that I'm missing something, but its not clear what.
> 
> My wife does enjoy flirtatious comments, sudden unexpected kisses and suggestions about what we will do that evening. She doesn't like anything too explicit - in fact that is a rather fine line I need to walk - we exchanged coded naughty emails but I need to guess right whether she wants something mildly flirting or more explicit. She does get lots of surprise kisses.
> 
> ...


Holy crap! I am obviously far too easy!



Maybe, just maybe, your wife has a very limited range of sexual expression and no matter what you do, she will only be open to sex on Sunday night. I think maybe your wife is on the clueless/selfish side. 





Diana7 said:


> That shows how wrong you can be. Having a sex life where its just the 2 of us, no one else involved through porn or erotica, is amazing and special. Its anything but rigid and totally free from any anxiety. I love having sex with my husband, and he with me. Its varied, its an expression of our love and I never refuse him sex nor he me.
> After nearly 12 years since we married I still love him to bits, there is no discontentment. I know I have married a very special man as few men stay away from porn these days which is so sad. :frown2:
> The fact that he does that makes me feel special, loved and respected.
> 
> ...



You know what they say.... denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Easy isn't the issue, corny as it is, I like sunset walks on beaches on exotic tropical island. Its just that to me in addition the immediate enjoyment, there should be the anticipation followed by the reality of passionate sex once we get back to the room.

To answer other posters - its not that it is all about sex, but rather that I find sex to be the natural conclusion of a romantic day. My symphony model - its not all about the last chord, but something is missing without it. 

Yes, my beloved wife is a bit clueless, maybe a bit asbergersy, and yes a bit selfish in general, but not too much. It just that like some posters here, she simply doesn't see sex as a necessary part of a relationship. 

Or, back to the topic here, she has some fantasy about what romance and sex *should* be like, and reality isn't living up to that. 




Anon Pink said:


> Holy crap! I am obviously far too easy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Easy isn't the issue, corny as it is, I like sunset walks on beaches on exotic tropical island. Its just that to me in addition the immediate enjoyment, there should be the anticipation followed by the reality of passionate sex once we get back to the room.
> 
> To answer other posters - its not that it is all about sex, but rather that I find sex to be the natural conclusion of a romantic day. My symphony model - its not all about the last chord, but something is missing without it.
> 
> ...



I agree, good sex would naturally occur for most couples under what you describe.

Your wife doesn't know how good she's got it.

So then it doesn't seem likely that your wife is reading romance and pining away for her fantasy romantic hero.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Many men have this same fantasy about their wives.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


Um...not quite lol

I actually have felt this way in other relationships, not just with my fiance. My fiance knows this, too...and he's okay with it sometimes, sometimes not. I was friends with my fiance before we took things into dating (so he knows me very well), and he knows that I'm a guarded person in general, and he believes that my desire to think about him with other women during sex, is because it keeps me a bit guarded, if that makes sense. I'm in the moment and love him, but in terms of sex/arousal, it's hard for me to think of myself as the one he is trying to please. When I think of him with other women, it's just incredibly hot to me. Idk. 

I'm in the moment totally during intercourse, but if he's performing oral, etc...then, I like to fantasize about him with other women. There's a therapist out there who could probably figure this out.  I ask him what he thinks about during sex, and he always says ''you.'' I say, ''the whole time?'' He smiles and nods...

I don't ever think about me with another man, that doesn't excite me. It only excites me to think about him with another woman, and it's just for sex, not like I'm imagining him in love with another woman. 

And I can't believe I'm sharing that here, but thought your reply deserved a reply back. lol


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You don't think its possible that none of this feels *romantic* to her. That rationally she knows that I'm romantic, and says so, but that there is this sense that something is missing? Sort of like the guy whos girlfriend will do anything to please him but he doesn't appreciate it because its not like in porn movies?

Just musing here. Most likely its more about passion and control being incompatible. 




Anon Pink said:


> I agree, good sex would naturally occur for most couples under what you describe.
> 
> Your wife doesn't know how good she's got it.
> 
> So then it doesn't seem likely that your wife is reading romance and pining away for her fantasy romantic hero.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Yes, I think that is a good description. She is an intellectual, as am I to some extent - I have more letters after my name, but am less likely to just spend an evening reading.
> 
> She does seem to like the *idea* of sex and romance. Its just that real life romance doesn't seem to work for her - maybe we need background music? She likes the idea of sex in the future - just not at the present time.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to disparage or over-generalize about initellectuals, it's just that when you have a tendency to intellectualize everything, it can be really hard to just live in one's body. Easy to detach from one's emotions, easy to rationalize, easy to prefer ideas and thinking over doing and sweating. 

Mix that with a need for control or fear of abandon, and I'd say it's quite possible that she literally just doesn't get it. Not that she's necessarily pining for some other, or feel like she's missing out on something, but honestly just doesn't get it. For sex to be good, you have to come out of your head.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> You don't think its possible that none of this feels *romantic* to her. That rationally she knows that I'm romantic, and says so, but that there is this sense that something is missing? Sort of like the guy whos girlfriend will do anything to please him but he doesn't appreciate it because its not like in porn movies?
> 
> Just musing here. Most likely its more about passion and control being incompatible.


It sounds to me that romance in your lives is exactly like the movies. Always fade to black or angle towards some neutral object when the sweat really starts to fly.

Maybe what you need to do is take her out to muck out a stable, or build houses, or something decidedly unromantic, but most definitely dirty (in the more literal sense).


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## Sixlet (Apr 26, 2016)

I put down the romance novels and erotic novels completely once I realized I was getting too caught up in them and comparing my marriage to those scenarios. Once you stop overdosing your brain on rom-coms and impossibly perfect romance/erotica novels it's easier to appreciate the things your partner does. You're not always looking for the grand gesture and bodice ripping experiences. 

Not all women are like this though. A lot of women are just fine with reading and watching without it harming their real life expectations. I wasn't one of them,unfortunately. 

I still have expectations but they're more grounded in reality now. 

It's the same as when we submerge ourselves in fashion blogs and celebrity crap...we start to look at ourselves like we're not good enough because we aren't super tall and a size 0. Even those of us who do have that body type still find reasons to loath our appearance bc the expectation is unrealistic and impossible to reach. 

Your wife is going to be much happier once she comes back to reality and gets used to living there.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Easy isn't the issue, corny as it is, I like sunset walks on beaches on exotic tropical island. Its just that to me in addition the immediate enjoyment, there should be the anticipation followed by the reality of passionate sex once we get back to the room.
> 
> To answer other posters - its not that it is all about sex, but rather that I find sex to be the natural conclusion of a romantic day. My symphony model - its not all about the last chord, but something is missing without it.
> 
> ...


I think her need, unlike yours, is not for sex. I think her need is for non-sexual affection or conversation or some other component of romantic interaction. When she reads her novels, she gets to live vicariously through the characters. She gets to experience their emotional intimacy, their romance. The characters have sex, which depending on her chosen authors may or may not be explicitly described in the book, but she doesn't have to. She gets the romance, which is important to her, without having to actually participate in the part that's not important to her - sex. With you, she's trying to recreate that fantasy - romance that goes as far as she wants it to and stops before the part she doesn't care about. There is nothing missing for her without the last chord. 

Her natural drive might not be tied to romance at all, as you say that she initiates sex following some pretty unromantic experiences. It may be that, for her, sex is just a biological urge that strikes once a week or so and is taken care of by the Sunday evening romp. It's something that just happens and that she addresses in the most efficient way possible. She may, particularly if she's "a bit asbergersy" as you say, just really not get that there's a fundamental emotional connection for you between romance and sex, as that connection apparently just isn't there for her. It's not that reality isn't living up to her idea of romance, it's that for her romance is what's important and she's missing the connection you make between romance and sex.


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