# Today is the 1-year mark I set for myself (more) - withholding



## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

One year ago today was the day I said I would give it 365 more days and if nothing had changed, would no longer try as it had been months since he had kissed me or been with me intimately (so yes, I have not been kissed other than a peck or had any intimacy other than a hug like everyone else in the house gets for a full year). 

The last two-four weeks I have tried to hold conversations with H about both the intimacy and anger issues knowing it was getting close to this one-year mark. Each time, there has been anger just TALKING about those two topics. The few times we try to pick back up and talk about it where it has been somewhat civil, he has basically told me that until I admit my role in the intimacy issue (he says I was not the initiator enough in previous years - though I strongly disagree with that - because of his late and limited hours available, there was only so much I could do - but I did try). Bottom line, UNLESS I AGREE that I had the primary role in the problem - whether I believe it or not - he will continue to withhold and we will stay status quo (living cordially when he isn't angry about something, and roommates). IF I will just agree that it was completely on me and I was in the wrong, then we can go back to having what a marriage is supposed to be. But he will NOT cave unless I admit my role and as far as he is concerned, it will remain 'as is'.

Knowing how simple it would be - all I have to do is say "YES, prior problems were ALL my fault in that area" and we move forward - should I just agree to it for the sake of moving on even if I don't believe it? I am in awe that he can go THAT long without any affection. Affection just isn't his thing - it's more quality time. I am really struggling - my 'thing' is affection. Should I just admit to something I don't believe to save the heartache of leaving and breaking up a family over lack of affection?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

And when you admit it do you honestly believe a switch will flick and he will take you in his arms and ravage you?
It will merely be his justification for behaving as he is.
In other words nothing will change.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

You have to choose your battles in a relationship. However, normal heterosexual men would not choose to go without sex for a year unless they were getting it elsewhere or had absolutely no sexual interest in the woman. I can't imagine having a year long passive aggressive battle with a spouse that could be solved so quickly unless there were other major problems in the relationship.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Knowing how simple it would be - all I have to do is say "YES, prior problems were ALL my fault in that area" and we move forward - should I just agree to it for the sake of moving on even if I don't believe it? I am in awe that he can go THAT long without any affection. Affection just isn't his thing - it's more quality time. I am really struggling - my 'thing' is affection. Should I just admit to something I don't believe to save the heartache of leaving and breaking up a family over lack of affection?


Your situations sounds similar to mine.

We'd go years with no sex, and I got tired of the power struggle. I didn't get married to be celibate.

I don't know what would be best for you, but I chose divorce. 

I've not had one minute of regret.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Last question--your choice. But there is so much more going on here. 

IMHO: Marriage is not a competition where one wins and the other loses. He is punishing you like a child/parent relationship. It takes two folks working together. Thinking 'my way or the highway' is stubborn, self-defeating, misery-inducing behavior.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Knowing how simple it would be - all I have to do is say "YES, prior problems were ALL my fault in that area" and we move forward - should I just agree to it for the sake of moving on even if I don't believe it? I am in awe that he can go THAT long without any affection. Affection just isn't his thing - it's more quality time. I am really struggling - my 'thing' is affection. Should I just admit to something I don't believe to save the heartache of leaving and breaking up a family over lack of affection?


You cannot be serious. Are you so desperate to hang on to an abusive narcissist that you would consider this at all??

If you don't enforce your OWN boundary that YOU put into place, then there is no point in even continuing down this path. You said one year... here you are at that year, and it still sucks. So end it. You KNOW in your heart of hearts that you are done with this crap, but you are allowing fear to hold you there and not even enforce your own boundary. (so far) You know you want out... those of us who have been reading your posts know it even better as we view it from 50,000 feet. He is a jerk, get yourself off of the fence.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I wish. Truly, I do. I thought if we got past all of the animosity (mainly on my behalf - I am sure I have not treated him well as i am just not a happy person any more the longer it goes on - I feel 'starved' - and I know what kind of person I am being starved of FOOD, so probably the same with affection. If I go into it maybe treating him better and spending more time with him as a NICE person, maybe the desire will come back for him. I guess that was my line of thinking, anyways.



Andy1001 said:


> And when you admit it do you honestly believe a switch will flick and he will take you in his arms and ravage you?
> It will merely be his justification for behaving as he is.
> In other words nothing will change.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Knowing how simple it would be - all I have to do is say "YES, prior problems were ALL my fault in that area" and we move forward - should I just agree to it for the sake of moving on even if I don't believe it?


No, that won't fix it. Even if you say it, he'll come up with some other excuse. You didn't say it the right way. It wasn't heartfelt enough. You waited too long. etc etc etc

I've seen enough intimacy threads here to know that a situation like yours does not get fixed. If he's that obstinate, the problem cannot be fixed. Fixing intimacy is a delicate process that requires the full participation of both people. Here it seems he just wants to be the martyr and have you grovel for his forgiveness. That is not the path to success and is not the way you should act towards your spouse regardless of the reason.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

There isn't any other relationship going on. He works at an office 2 x a week and we both work at home the other days so always know each other's whereabouts. Honestly, I believe it to be a low-T problem. This happened many years ago and he went and got on the treatments. I saw an immediate difference. After a year, he quit going as he said he never saw a difference. He said he doesn't ever want to go back - has no time for it and doesn't want to do something that he has no idea what it would do to his body (which I don't agree with - I've researched it myself). The only other problems in the R are his anger issues which several things can set him off, though it does come and go - sometimes he can go for 4-6 months without a major incident, other times less. Other than that, there are no other major issues.



Bananapeel said:


> You have to choose your battles in a relationship. However, normal heterosexual men would not choose to go without sex for a year unless they were getting it elsewhere or had absolutely no sexual interest in the woman. I can't imagine having a year long passive aggressive battle with a spouse that could be solved so quickly unless there were other major problems in the relationship.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

How long were you married, minimalME? And are you male or female? Not that either matters, just trying to get a good picture of others who are or were in similar situations. We have been married for 25 years. 2 more until the youngest leaves the nest, but I am struggling with this roommate thing on a day-to-day basis. One day feels like a month sometimes. Just wondering if it truly wouldn't be easier just to CAVE if it means that much to me................just one simple sentence "Yes, I will admit everything prior was my fault, can we please move on?"



minimalME said:


> Your situations sounds similar to mine.
> 
> We'd go years with no sex, and I got tired of the power struggle. I didn't get married to be celibate.
> 
> ...


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Honestly, I believe it to be a low-T problem. This happened many years ago and he went and got on the treatments. I saw an immediate difference.


Low testosterone is a completely different issue than what you've described in your original post. 

He's been pridefully stonewalling you.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I just hate this. I don't know any other females that have to beg for attention. It's usually the opposite, they have no interest. Why can't I be like them? You are probably right.............he will come up with something else. I am going to approach him tonight - or by the end of the week for sure - with SOME conversation. I don't know what yet. That's why I posted. I need to figure out what I will or will not say.



wilson said:


> No, that won't fix it. Even if you say it, he'll come up with some other excuse. You didn't say it the right way. It wasn't heartfelt enough. You waited too long. etc etc etc
> 
> I've seen enough intimacy threads here to know that a situation like yours does not get fixed. If he's that obstinate, the problem cannot be fixed. Fixing intimacy is a delicate process that requires the full participation of both people. Here it seems he just wants to be the martyr and have you grovel for his forgiveness. That is not the path to success and is not the way you should act towards your spouse regardless of the reason.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm a 51 year old female, and we were married for 20 years.

And my ex-husband sounds similar to yours, with a self-righteous streak a mile long.




LilMissSunshine said:


> How long were you married, minimalME? And are you male or female? Not that either matters, just trying to get a good picture of others who are or were in similar situations. We have been married for 25 years. 2 more until the youngest leaves the nest, but I am struggling with this roommate thing on a day-to-day basis. One day feels like a month sometimes. Just wondering if it truly wouldn't be easier just to CAVE if it means that much to me................just one simple sentence "Yes, I will admit everything prior was my fault, can we please move on?"


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I think it is PART of it, but probably not all of it. I know when he was on the T treatments years ago he at least had some interest. The anger issues are also a big problem, and honestly I don't know which of the two is the worst - but yes, T is part of it.

Would it change your response knowing that low-T is involved?



minimalME said:


> Low testosterone is a completely different issue than what you've described in your original post.
> 
> He's been pridefully stonewalling you.


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## Aloneinmyworld (Oct 7, 2018)

I don't think I've had more than 5 intimate kisses in the past 5 years! LOL


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Would it change your response knowing that low-T is involved?


A medical issue does change things, but there was no commitment to finding a solution. He was just fine with the way things were, and I was told that he wanted to be accepted as he was, and that he wouldn't promise me anything would change.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

We are very close in age and length of marriage, then! There IS someone like me..............I feel so odd-man-out with this at times. Not that I talk to many people IRL about anything like this, but those who do talk about their r's, I never have female friends that seem to have a problem like this. If something means so much to us, you would think they would want to do something and take action to make it better...........wouldn't you? He is great in so many other areas, but this is a critical need of mine. I would be willing to give up some of the other to have a love life.



minimalME said:


> I'm a 51 year old female, and we were married for 20 years.
> 
> And my ex-husband sounds similar to yours, with a self-righteous streak a mile long.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

OMG!!! Same here...............happy with the way things are, no intentions of going to get it checked or doing anything, BUT if I will own up to being the problem, he will try to get back on track with our love life. So I guess I got a half-way commitment, but only if I give the right answer.



minimalME said:


> I'm a 51 year old female, and we were married for 20 years.
> 
> And my ex-husband sounds similar to yours, with a self-righteous streak a mile long.





minimalME said:


> A medical issue does change things, but there was no commitment to finding a solution. He was just fine with the way things were, and I was told that he wanted to be accepted as he was, and that he wouldn't promise me anything would change.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I don't know how I will answer that question, sunsetmist. It just makes me mad that he puts me in that position. A few times I told him I was ready to have that conversation so we could move forward and random things would seem to get in the way and delay it. If he really missed being with me after that many months, you would think he would have been insisting on hurrying up and having that talk. I know there have been things come up at home, but if it was truly a priority and he wanted my physical presence, I think he would have already been suggesting "when are we gonna talk so we can get our love life back?"..........but that has never happened, sadly.



sunsetmist said:


> Last question--your choice. But there is so much more going on here.
> 
> IMHO: Marriage is not a competition where one wins and the other loses. He is punishing you like a child/parent relationship. It takes two folks working together. Thinking 'my way or the highway' is stubborn, self-defeating, misery-inducing behavior.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> He is great in so many other areas, but this is a critical need of mine. I would be willing to give up some of the other to have a love life.


This is the way it was for me too.

My ex-husband was great in many areas - that had nothing to do with being a husband. It was truly like living with another woman.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Yes, 3x................I am serious. There are other good qualities he has. And it's 25 years and 2 kids - a family that would be changed forever. If I could easily save that family by answering ONE question differently, then would it be worth it? That's what I am battling. Do I swallow my pride and get things back on the right track OR do I have to be "right" and say what I really feel for the sake of keeping everything together.



3Xnocharm said:


> You cannot be serious. Are you so desperate to hang on to an abusive narcissist that you would consider this at all??
> 
> If you don't enforce your OWN boundary that YOU put into place, then there is no point in even continuing down this path. You said one year... here you are at that year, and it still sucks. So end it. You KNOW in your heart of hearts that you are done with this crap, but you are allowing fear to hold you there and not even enforce your own boundary. (so far) You know you want out... those of us who have been reading your posts know it even better as we view it from 50,000 feet. He is a jerk, get yourself off of the fence.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> He is great in so many other areas, but this is a critical need of mine. I would be willing to give up some of the other to have a love life.


He has anger issues. Sorry but that is NOT great, not in any way, shape, or form. 

BTW... been FOUR YEARS for me. Just sayin.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> OMG!!! Same here...............happy with the way things are, no intentions of going to get it checked or doing anything, BUT if I will own up to being the problem, he will try to get back on track with our love life. So I guess I got a half-way commitment, but only if I give the right answer.


My ex-husband sat me down one day and asked what I had learned. (!!!)

And, if memory serves, this was even after we were divorced.

He still thought I'd regret my choice and fess up to it all being my fault and my mistake. 

Not a chance.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Wow, really? Are you o.k. with that or does it bother you? Maybe it is o.k. for some people. I wish I could be one of those and life would be just fine here. Are you truly o.k. with it? Are you happy in your relationship otherwise? How long have you been together?



Aloneinmyworld said:


> I don't think I've had more than 5 intimate kisses in the past 5 years! LOL


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Well, you are right...........anger issues are NOT good (and I know this will not come as a shocker - he says *I* bring out that anger in him...........yes, that's what he says. Of course I don't buy it at all, since i am supposedly the blame for ALL problems). But you are right, anger issues are not good.

Four years??




3Xnocharm said:


> He has anger issues. Sorry but that is NOT great, not in any way, shape, or form.
> 
> BTW... been FOUR YEARS for me. Just sayin.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Yes, 3x................I am serious. There are other good qualities he has. And it's 25 years and 2 kids - a family that would be changed forever. If I could easily save that family by answering ONE question differently, then would it be worth it? That's what I am battling. Do I swallow my pride and get things back on the right track OR do I have to be "right" and say what I really feel for the sake of keeping everything together.


But what you are failing to see here is a couple of things. Number one, it wouldn't be real or sincere. Number two, even if it WERE real and sincere, it wont matter. Because this is who he is, and even if it improved for a time, it would be short lived until he returns to his true self. Number three, you set out a serious boundary, and if you don't enforce it, he knows that no matter what kind of threat of consequence comes out of your mouth, you don't mean it and you will not follow through. So that sets him up to continue being the way he is, and very likely to escalate and be even worse. Because he can. Because you allow it. Why should he change? This isn't about you being right, this is about your abusive narcissist fighting for his control.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

WHAT?!?!? The common thread is that someone else is always the problem. He cannot admit that he may be part of it - or that having an intimate relationship is 'normal" even for someone 50 years of age (another reason of his - 'nobody that has been married that long and at our age still has 'that' kind of relationship'. I don't buy that for one minute, not after reading these boards.




minimalME said:


> My ex-husband sat me down one day and asked what I had learned. (!!!)
> 
> And, if memory serves, this was even after we were divorced.
> 
> ...


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Well, that was my internal timeline, I never told him that. But I do agree that it wouldn't be sincere if I agreed to it..............and reluctantly I believe your second point (it might be short-lived, as this is who he is). I wonder if I just wait long enough if I'll get so old I won't care, lol. Sad to think about, but I'll be striking out on my own at the age of 50+, cutting my income by 2/3, and separating from my 16-year old just because of "MY" needs. It just seems so selfish. But yet i remain unhappy. 

I want to have a conversation with him TONIGHT or by the end of the week to reach a resolution one way or another. I wonder if I tell him about the one-year mark and that I am at the end of the road and see what he says.............his response will probably tell me everything I need to know. 

What do you think about the thing where just by virtue of getting older, maybe I won't care about the affection part? The anger part will go down by 50% just by me not asking about the affection, so that will automatically get better.



3Xnocharm said:


> But what you are failing to see here is a couple of things. Number one, it wouldn't be real or sincere. Number two, even if it WERE real and sincere, it wont matter. Because this is who he is, and even if it improved for a time, it would be short lived until he returns to his true self. Number three, you set out a serious boundary, and if you don't enforce it, he knows that no matter what kind of threat of consequence comes out of your mouth, you don't mean it and you will not follow through. So that sets him up to continue being the way he is, and very likely to escalate and be even worse. Because he can. Because you allow it. Why should he change? This isn't about you being right, this is about your abusive narcissist fighting for his control.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Each time, there has been anger just TALKING about those two topics. The few times we try to pick back up and talk about it where it has been somewhat civil, he has basically told me that until I admit my role in the intimacy issue (he says I was not the initiator enough in previous years - though I strongly disagree with that - because of his late and limited hours available, there was only so much I could do - but I did try). Bottom line, UNLESS I AGREE that I had the primary role in the problem - whether I believe it or not - he will continue to withhold and we will stay status quo (living cordially when he isn't angry about something, and roommates). IF I will just agree that it was completely on me and I was in the wrong, then we can go back to having what a marriage is supposed to be. But he will NOT cave unless I admit my role and as far as he is concerned, it will remain 'as is'.
> 
> Knowing how simple it would be - all I have to do is say "YES, prior problems were ALL my fault in that area" and we move forward - should I just agree to it for the sake of moving on even if I don't believe it? I am in awe that he can go THAT long without any affection. Affection just isn't his thing - it's more quality time. I am really struggling - my 'thing' is affection. Should I just admit to something I don't believe to save the heartache of leaving and breaking up a family over lack of affection?


Having divorced after years of my husband withholding sex, I am not an impartial person here. I could not believe that logically this would go on for years, but it did. Have learned my ex is a passive aggressive narcissist. Maybe you should read up on these topics. Women need intimacy and connection and I believe this is part of his duty as a husband. Your husband, however, believes control--by him--is his mission in marriage. 

Your post makes me sad. What he is doing is neglectful and deprecating. I remember the longing and trying to make sense of it all. Don't let him hold you hostage. Could you both agree to let go of the past and start anew? Otherwise, he may choose to do this again in future disagreements.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> What do you think about the thing where just by virtue of getting older, maybe I won't care about the affection part? The anger part will go down by 50% just by me not asking about the affection, so that will automatically get better.


You sound a lot like me, so I can tell you that it wont change, because the need for affection is part of who you are. I can also tell you that after this amount of time (four years) that I am starving to death. And I am very angry with myself for letting this happen and waste my time. Working on getting the courage to end it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He's not interested in you sexually, for whatever reason, so while you may decide to agree with him that it's all your fault that doesn't mean things will change if you do. 

Some people stay in these situations and some people move on. You'll have to decide what's ultimately best for you.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

TG we aren't the type to take up with another man. At this point, I am so starving, it wouldn't take much for me to bolt and ride off into the sunset with ANYONE. I am half kidding, half not. While I don't relish 'starting over' and would want to be by myself for a while, I know that because of the main reason I am dissatisfied, I would wind up in another relationship at some point - maybe not a MARRIAGE (very, very unlikely it would ever be a marriage), but a relationship. Do you feel that way, too?

YES, you are right. It is part of who we are. I want to be hugged like someone means it. I want to be kissed passionately. I want LOVE. And not the same kind my grandma or kids get.



3Xnocharm said:


> You sound a lot like me, so I can tell you that it wont change, because the need for affection is part of who you are. I can also tell you that after this amount of time (four years) that I am starving to death. And I am very angry with myself for letting this happen and waste my time. Working on getting the courage to end it.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Even though this recent thing has only been a year, Sunset, we have not went to bed at the same time in sixteen years - since right after my youngest was born. If you saw any of my early, early posts from several years ago, I went into all of that. He eventually comes to bed, but usually long after I am asleep (i.e., 2:00 a.m. or later). I lay in there at night knowing he is in another room doing his thing ("Unwinding" with his sports and hobbies - absolutely sure that there is no more to it), and sometimes literally have just cried. I am that lonely. I don't think he does it to be cold, I just don't think he 'gets' how important that connection is to me. He didn't have any serious relationships before me, so not a lot of time to practice. I never saw it as a 'control' issue - is that what it is? My mother said years ago she thought he was controlling, as did my brother - but I never really saw it (they had to have seen it in other parts of the relationship, as we don't talk about this kind of thing).

What was the last straw for you, Sunset?




sunsetmist said:


> Having divorced after years of my husband withholding sex, I am not an impartial person here. I could not believe that logically this would go on for years, but it did.  Have learned my ex is a passive aggressive narcissist. Maybe you should read up on these topics. Women need intimacy and connection and I believe this is part of his duty as a husband. Your husband, however, believes control--by him--is his mission in marriage.
> 
> Your post makes me sad. What he is doing is neglectful and deprecating. I remember the longing and trying to make sense of it all. Don't let him hold you hostage. Could you both agree to let go of the past and start anew? Otherwise, he may choose to do this again in future disagreements.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

This is so frustrating to read. He’s literally trying to force you to bend to his will. What kind of person does that? Someone who feels empathy, compassion, tenderness and concern for you??? And then when you agree to become his human pretzel he’s suddenly going to feel all of those things for you? He’s literally showing you he doesn’t care about you at all.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Dang. I just wish I could be one of those women who wanted to be married to a roommate...........the ones I seem to read a lot about on here. I've TRIED diverting my attention to EVERYTHING else, staying busy, etc., but it all comes back when I am laying in there at night all alone that I am just LONELY and no amount of anything is ever really going to fill that hole in my heart.



Openminded said:


> He's not interested in you sexually, for whatever reason, so while you may decide to agree with him that it's all your fault that doesn't mean things will change if you do.
> 
> Some people stay in these situations and some people move on. You'll have to decide what's ultimately best for you.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

He will TELL me he loves me, hug me, pat me on the back, and act caring...............so he seems to have empathy and compassion and says he loves me. He isn't MEAN. But he is not backing down on this. So where does that leave me? Does he really NOT have compassion or care for me? Is it all an act? He sure seems sincere, and he has stuck with me through a lot in 25 years. It's hard for me to believe there is NO love there with the way he acts overall. But then again, during one of the mean streaks, it can be another story. I just know if something meant that much to him, even if it didn't to me, I would do my best to try and do whatever I could to make it happen - yet he won't do that for me. He'll buy me anything I want or need, take me places, do housework, earn a living and be a good dad, but he won't do THAT. He has me sooooo confused.



Not said:


> This is so frustrating to read. He’s literally trying to force you to bend to his will. What kind of person does that? Someone who feels empathy, compassion, tenderness and concern for you??? And then when you agree to become his human pretzel he’s suddenly going to feel all of those things for you? He’s literally showing you he doesn’t care about you at all.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Bowing to his inaccurate assessment of whose fault everything is will not help. It will not change him. It will just be little you. There is a certain type of man who needs the woman to be wrong no matter what period you do not want to be intimate with these types of men. If I were you, I would not admit to anything that is not true. And if this means you have to separate from a man who was obviously a child, then that is on him and his behavior.


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## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

So, we're older but I feel your pain. 

My wife retired a year ago. Before she retired, we'd have sex about three/four times a month...the days right before she left for 2 weeks in the field and the day she returned. Wasn't great, but it kept this fish on the hook. Now she's home all the time and it's been twice in a year. "My libido is gone," she says. 

Well, honey...mine isn't.

She's a drinker. And, in two of her more extreme drunken disassociations, she said she she wouldn't care if I had other "liaisons." 

Never argue with a drunk, but never believe them either.

I don't want another "liaison." I want a loving wife. 

And, as soon as things can be shaped up, I'm going to set things in motion so I get one with just two little words.

Bye honey.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> He isn't MEAN. But he is not backing down on this. So where does that leave me?


Neither was my ex-husband. 

Until our separation and divorce.

He turned into quite a different person, which made me even more satisfied with my choice.

He's extremely black and white. 

In marriage, his attention was suffocating. Then after our divorce? Now I no longer exist. Unless it's about money, then he'll write. 

But two of our children were in serious situations during the past couple of years. One was hospitalized and one was injured. He never said a word.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> He will TELL me he loves me, hug me, pat me on the back, and act caring...............so he seems to have empathy and compassion and says he loves me. He isn't MEAN. But he is not backing down on this. So where does that leave me? Does he really NOT have compassion or care for me? Is it all an act? He sure seems sincere, and he has stuck with me through a lot in 25 years. It's hard for me to believe there is NO love there with the way he acts overall. But then again, during one of the mean streaks, it can be another story. I just know if something meant that much to him, even if it didn't to me, I would do my best to try and do whatever I could to make it happen - yet he won't do that for me. He'll buy me anything I want or need, take me places, do housework, earn a living and be a good dad, but he won't do THAT. He has me sooooo confused.


Respectfully, you are confusing yourself. Your husband is being crystal clear. Your paragraph above is so full of contradictions. You say he isn't mean. But then you go on and say that he has mean streaks. You say he pats you on the back and takes you places, does house work and earns a living and is a good dad. But he will not budge on having sex with you. You say you try to make things happen that mean alot to him. But he knows having sex with you means alot to you. There is no confusion. He is controlling and he has no lust for you nor does he respect you. As long as his little woman falls in line, there is no issue. But the second you start to dissent, he starts laying down the ultimatums. That's not love, that's a dictatorship. 

At 50, you are still so young. I am exactly your age. I may squawk about being old, but I am young. So are you. Better to start over at 50 than waste another 20 years and start at 70.

The reason I first joined this forum was because my at the time newish boyfriend, now my fiance, we both hit a problematic patch with our sex life. We are sexually incompatible. At first we were having sex every night because it was new and exciting. That's normal. Then it decreased. Alot. The quality was pitiful. I thought he had low testosterone. Or he flat out wasn't attracted to me. Not that I'm all that and a bag of chips but I'd never have that be an issue before so that really hurt. We talked and cried together. He even went to the doctor at my request. His T levels were normal at the time. This is how my situation differs from yours. He told me he loved me and he wanted to find a way to make our situation work. He suggested a sex therapist and counseling. HE DID!!! To me, that's what true love looks like. He gave me no ultimatums and demanded that I admitted everything was my fault. That's a huge deal for a man to say and propose such a thing. Machismo and all.

It was rough. I am not going to sit here and lie to you and tell you that everything is 100% roses. But it is SO much better and I can totally live with it! Do we have sex as much as I want to? No. Is the quality of our sex better? Oh yes!!! I have learned and he has learned. We both have gone out of our comfort zones to make each other happy in the bedroom. And I love him all the more for that very reason.

That, my sweet lady, is what love looks like.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

LilMissSunshine said:


> He will TELL me he loves me, hug me, pat me on the back, and act caring...............so he seems to have empathy and compassion and says he loves me. He isn't MEAN. But he is not backing down on this. So where does that leave me? Does he really NOT have compassion or care for me? Is it all an act? He sure seems sincere, and he has stuck with me through a lot in 25 years. It's hard for me to believe there is NO love there with the way he acts overall. But then again, during one of the mean streaks, it can be another story. I just know if something meant that much to him, even if it didn't to me, I would do my best to try and do whatever I could to make it happen - yet he won't do that for me. He'll buy me anything I want or need, take me places, do housework, earn a living and be a good dad, but he won't do THAT. He has me sooooo confused.



I believe he does care but what he cares about is his version of what he wants reality to be and that reality excludes your needs, your opinions and your personal sovereignty, yet all of that is met for him. His version of love and caring also includes punishing you everytime you try to approach him with what doesn’t fit his version. I’m sure he’s happy as a clam as long as you don’t mess with his fantasy.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> -snip- he has basically told me that until I admit my role in the intimacy issue (he says I was not the initiator enough in previous years - though I strongly disagree with that - because of his late and limited hours available, there was only so much I could do - but I did try). Bottom line, UNLESS I AGREE that I had the primary role in the problem - whether I believe it or not - he will continue to withhold and we will stay status quo (living cordially when he isn't angry about something, and roommates). IF I will just agree that it was completely on me and I was in the wrong, then we can go back to having what a marriage is supposed to be. But he will NOT cave unless I admit my role and as far as he is concerned, it will remain 'as is'.
> 
> Knowing how simple it would be - all I have to do is say "YES, prior problems were ALL my fault in that area" and we move forward - should I just agree to it for the sake of moving on even if I don't believe it? I am in awe that he can go THAT long without any affection. Affection just isn't his thing - it's more quality time. I am really struggling - my 'thing' is affection. Should I just admit to something I don't believe to save the heartache of leaving and breaking up a family over lack of affection?


Lil miss, after reading much of this thread it seems to me that you don't understand the gravity of this demand. I've been on the higher side of a mismatched drive marriage for as long as you have and I've read much, as have you. So why don't you see that this is about power.

in a mismatched drive relationship the lower drive person controls the sex. That control is held and maintained by the power of veto. He has the right to reject any initiation. And of course he pretends that this is fair because you also have the right to refuse. But that is a lie to maintain his power. One he keeps you starved so you will never reject him, and two he never initiates so you have no use for a veto. Sex happens when he says it will and no other time. 

You have struck back effectively. He has lost his power. Because you refuse to initiate. All he wants to patch it up is for you to admit that the only problem is that you don't initiate. Can you see where this is going? As soon as you admit that, all initiation will be on you for the remainder of the relationship. And he will immediately start rejecting you at a rate equal to or greater than what was happening before you refused to play. 

I would rather you agree to make a milkshake a sandwich every day than to hand him back the power that he abused. This is the One thing that you can not give him.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Not said:


> I believe he does care but what he cares about is his version of what he wants reality to be and that reality excludes your needs, your opinions and your personal sovereignty, yet all of that is met for him. His version of love and caring also includes punishing you everytime you try to approach him with what doesn’t fit his version. I’m sure he’s happy as a clam as long as you don’t mess with his fantasy.


'


YES to that last sentence. If I don't question things, life goes along amazingly well here. It's when I voice a NEED that creates a problem. I am starting to see that. He knows I depend on him.........that's probably part of it. But I am starting to become less so, already have savings set aside and have taken other steps. He probably will be truly SHOCKED if I ever do leave.................which sadly I can say it is coming to that. I literally don't know how much longer I can do this some days. Not only do I not get any "real" affection that a wife would expect, I have NO IDEA when and if it will EVER end. That's what makes it twice as hard.


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## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

@LittleMissSunshine....been 15 mos. For me. I'm 52...husband is going through be 58 soon. Been married for 23 years. We live like roommates and kinda like the parent/child dynamic. We have so many issues and for so many years! I....like someone else on here...am working up the courage to leave. I....like you....want the intimacy and sex in my marriage and cannot get it. 

Admitting it's all your fault and moving on from there won't work. Even if the sex and intimacy would return it is going to make you full of resentment down the road....which is going to turn you bitter and angry. Because you essentially gave up your power and gave him control. Admitting all the fault and taking all the blame for an issue where two parties are involved is not good for your self esteem. 

Ask yourself....could you respect yourself and move on? Could you respect your husband, the man who is demanding that you take all the blame in order to get the sexual intimacy back in your marriage? And if the lack of respect is present....can you be intimate again in this relationship where there is not mutual respect?


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I need to say something else. Back in January I thought I was at the end of it after having went through several years of the anger stuff - and off and on with the other affection issue. For four days he thought I was filing for divorce because I told him I would be. Those four days he made my life miserable. I think that's part of my hesitation right now. Knowing what would be in store for me if I did decide to move forward - and I work from home several days a week so it isn't like I can even escape during the day. I think part of it for me is being afraid to live with him during a transition period. Mentally I think it would break me.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Even though this recent thing has only been a year, Sunset, we have not went to bed at the same time in sixteen years - since right after my youngest was born. If you saw any of my early, early posts from several years ago, I went into all of that. *He eventually comes to bed, but usually long after I am asleep (i.e., 2:00 a.m. or later). I lay in there at night knowing he is in another room doing his thing* ("Unwinding" with his sports and hobbies - absolutely sure that there is no more to it), and sometimes literally have just cried. I am that lonely. I don't think he does it to be cold, I just don't think he 'gets' how important that connection is to me.


My ex-husband also did this.

I'd fall asleep on the couch at night just to be in the same room with him, while he'd sit and watch TV and eat snacks.

Then when he was ready to go bed, he'd wake me up, and we'd go up together.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> TG we aren't the type to take up with another man. At this point, I am so starving, it wouldn't take much for me to bolt and ride off into the sunset with ANYONE. I am half kidding, half not. While I don't relish 'starting over' and would want to be by myself for a while, I know that because of the main reason I am dissatisfied, I would wind up in another relationship at some point - maybe not a MARRIAGE (very, very unlikely it would ever be a marriage), but a relationship. Do you feel that way, too?
> 
> 
> 
> YES, you are right. It is part of who we are. I want to be hugged like someone means it. I want to be kissed passionately. I want LOVE. And not the same kind my grandma or kids get.




I sometimes do feel that I could be vulnerable to someone who came at me the right way. In reality I'm not interested in straying from my relationship. I've loved him for four years, we have only been an actual couple for about the last ten months. I wasn't with anyone else in all the time we were only friends. Sex is emotional for me and he was where my heart was, so I had no desire to be with anyone. 

As far as getting married again... not something I'm interested in really. Three failures is enough! I just want my forever person, legal document not needed!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I need to say something else. Back in January I thought I was at the end of it after having went through several years of the anger stuff - and off and on with the other affection issue. For four days he thought I was filing for divorce because I told him I would be. Those four days he made my life miserable. I think that's part of my hesitation right now. Knowing what would be in store for me if I did decide to move forward - and I work from home several days a week so it isn't like I can even escape during the day. I think part of it for me is being afraid to live with him during a transition period. Mentally I think it would break me.


Clearly you are a patient woman. Couldn't you get your ducks in a row, like @Not and be stealthy and then tell him one day, then leave the next? Do you have the strength to do that? Or set up shop temporarily somewhere else? There is always a way.

ETA: I don't want anyone to misunderstand and think that @Not was stealthy about it and just up and left. Her husband knew of her plans. What I meant was that she was patient and got all of her ducks in a row before she left. She had every I dotted and every T crossed.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

My situation is different from yours. Sounds like your husband didn't have good marriage role-models or expectations.

You asked. My husband was mean (especially emotionally abusive) to me--not to others. He'd said he wanted a divorce for years, but I believed marriage was a commitment to God and held on. He made my life miserable enough that my adult kids were afraid they would come home and find those of us left dead. Kids and I went on a trip--I'd paid all costs myself. He closed credit cards, bank accounts, insurance, etc.and I got a phone call from front desk giving me that message. I realized I'd have to despise someone to treat them like he treated me. He'd finally made a believer of me. 

Leaving after 25+ years, for me, was best thing ever. BTW: He has had two other wives and each left after a matter of months.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I need to say something else. Back in January I thought I was at the end of it after having went through several years of the anger stuff - and off and on with the other affection issue. For four days he thought I was filing for divorce because I told him I would be. Those four days he made my life miserable. I think that's part of my hesitation right now. Knowing what would be in store for me if I did decide to move forward - and I work from home several days a week so it isn't like I can even escape during the day. I think part of it for me is being afraid to live with him during a transition period. Mentally I think it would break me.


I’ve been there. You plow straight through it, fear after fear after fear. Some days will be total hell but some days already are, none of that is new to you. You’re already prepared because dealing with him is all you’ve been doing already.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Wow, after reading this a couple of times, it DOES make sense. Thank you for laying it out there like that. I never saw it as a POWER thing, but can see that it is..............much like CONTROL that another poster mentioned. I think the two go hand-in-hand. The more I read and listen here, the more it helps.............I wish none of us had to go through some of what we go through.



Mr. Nail said:


> Lil miss, after reading much of this thread it seems to me that you don't understand the gravity of this demand. I've been on the higher side of a mismatched drive marriage for as long as you have and I've read much, as have you. So why don't you see that this is about power.
> 
> in a mismatched drive relationship the lower drive person controls the sex. That control is held and maintained by the power of veto. He has the right to reject any initiation. And of course he pretends that this is fair because you also have the right to refuse. But that is a lie to maintain his power. One he keeps you starved so you will never reject him, and two he never initiates so you have no use for a veto. Sex happens when he says it will and no other time.
> 
> ...


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Definitely yours did the right thing by taking ACTION and showing he cared about your needs. That goes a long way, lucy999. And mine KNOWS what is important to me - I've been very clear about that. I agree about the lack of lust. There just isn't any of that - and why I don't know. I look better than I did when we first got married - and I am not disillusioned with that. It's the honest truth and I know that for several reasons. So it's not that I have let myself go, gained weight, or anything like that. There is NO spark there for him (which I think is the "T" problem) nor is there a desire to work with me on this. I am glad that you found a good solution to the issues you guys were facing.



lucy999 said:


> Respectfully, you are confusing yourself. Your husband is being crystal clear. Your paragraph above is so full of contradictions. You say he isn't mean. But then you go on and say that he has mean streaks. You say he pats you on the back and takes you places, does house work and earns a living and is a good dad. But he will not budge on having sex with you. You say you try to make things happen that mean alot to him. But he knows having sex with you means alot to you. There is no confusion. He is controlling and he has no lust for you nor does he respect you. As long as his little woman falls in line, there is no issue. But the second you start to dissent, he starts laying down the ultimatums. That's not love, that's a dictatorship.
> 
> At 50, you are still so young. I am exactly your age. I may squawk about being old, but I am young. So are you. Better to start over at 50 than waste another 20 years and start at 70.
> 
> ...


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

No desire to stray either, just jokingly saying it wouldn't take much at this stage to get me to run off with someone. I will absolutely never get married again - but would like to find a R where someone is as interested in a physical connection as I am.



3Xnocharm said:


> I sometimes do feel that I could be vulnerable to someone who came at me the right way. In reality I'm not interested in straying from my relationship. I've loved him for four years, we have only been an actual couple for about the last ten months. I wasn't with anyone else in all the time we were only friends. Sex is emotional for me and he was where my heart was, so I had no desire to be with anyone.
> 
> As far as getting married again... not something I'm interested in really. Three failures is enough! I just want my forever person, legal document not needed!
> 
> ...


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

This makes me so sad. TG you left. I cannot imagine going through all of that. Bless you. While I always want happiness for everybody, I want it even more so for those who were treated badly or have had bad things happen in life. So happy for you that you found your courage.



sunsetmist said:


> My situation is different from yours. Sounds like your husband didn't have good marriage role-models or expectations.
> 
> You asked. My husband was mean (especially emotionally abusive) to me--not to others. He'd said he wanted a divorce for years, but I believed marriage was a commitment to God and held on. He made my life miserable enough that my adult kids were afraid they would come home and find those of us left dead. Kids and I went on a trip--I'd paid all costs myself. He closed credit cards, bank accounts, insurance, etc.and I got a phone call from front desk giving me that message. I realized I'd have to despise someone to treat them like he treated me. He'd finally made a believer of me.
> 
> Leaving after 25+ years, for me, was best thing ever. BTW: He has had two other wives and each left after a matter of months.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I could, BUT, I don't want to give up my rights to the house as I would be the one staying in it (we discussed this the time we thought we were going our separate ways) AND I don't want it to be an issue with seeing the 16-year old. H would likely claim 'abandonment' and I would get in some sort of trouble with legal issues surrounding that, I'm sure. But YES, I could decide to get everything all organized and plan to FILE and tell him then, but don't think I could just move out. For sure he will never be surprised by this as we have been having troubles for years - and we both have been pretty unhappy. S o it would not be blindsiding him at all - but am scared of what all I would give up.



lucy999 said:


> Clearly you are a patient woman. Couldn't you get your ducks in a row, like @Not and be stealthy and then tell him one day, then leave the next? Do you have the strength to do that? Or set up shop temporarily somewhere else? There is always a way.
> 
> ETA: I don't want anyone to misunderstand and think that @Not was stealthy about it and just up and left. Her husband knew of her plans. What I meant was that she was patient and got all of her ducks in a row before she left. She had every I dotted and every T crossed.


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## Aloneinmyworld (Oct 7, 2018)

No....I'm not happy or ok with it. That's why I'm here. I am actively looking for help to make things better!


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I could, BUT, I don't want to give up my rights to the house as I would be the one staying in it (we discussed this the time we thought we were going our separate ways) AND I don't want it to be an issue with seeing the 16-year old. H would likely claim 'abandonment' and I would get in some sort of trouble with legal issues surrounding that, I'm sure. But YES, I could decide to get everything all organized and plan to FILE and tell him then, but don't think I could just move out. For sure he will never be surprised by this as we have been having troubles for years - and we both have been pretty unhappy. S o it would not be blindsiding him at all - but am scared of what all I would give up.


Please forgive me if this has been discussed. Have you seen an attorney to at least be informed of your legal rights should you divorce?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Why (what reason) did you tell him you changed your mind in January and decided to stay?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Each time, there has been anger just TALKING about those two topics.
> 
> he has told me that until I admit my role in the intimacy issue (he says I was not the initiator enough in previous years he will continue to withhold and we will stay status quo (living cordially when he isn't angry about something, and roommates).


Wait, what? 

WHAT THE HELL WHAT?

Is he mentally abusive?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> There isn't any other relationship going on. He works at an office 2 x a week and we both work at home the other days so always know each other's whereabouts. Honestly, I believe it to be a low-T problem.


It's not a low-T problem. It's a mental health problem.



> The only other problems in the R are his anger issues which several things can set him off, though it does come and go - sometimes he can go for 4-6 months without a major incident, other times less. Other than that, there are no other major issues.


So...if only he weren't an abusive jerk, the marriage would be wonderful, right?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> he says *I* bring out that anger in him


Of course he does. He is AN ABUSER.

That is what abusers SAY.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I could, BUT, I don't want to give up my rights to the house as I would be the one staying in it (we discussed this the time we thought we were going our separate ways) AND I don't want it to be an issue with seeing the 16-year old. H would likely claim 'abandonment' and I would get in some sort of trouble with legal issues surrounding that, I'm sure. But YES, I could decide to get everything all organized and plan to FILE and tell him then, but don't think I could just move out. For sure he will never be surprised by this as we have been having troubles for years - and we both have been pretty unhappy. S o it would not be blindsiding him at all - but am scared of what all I would give up.


Well, if you would be the one staying in the house, then no, you wouldnt need to move out and there could be no claim of abandonment. Your child is 16, MORE than old enough to make his (her?) own choices about where to live, when to visit, etc. so that is actually a GOOD thing in your situation. I agree that you get everything in place first, including getting yourself an attorney. Then let him know that he needs to make living arrangements, and to start thinking about how to divide things up. I actually filed for divorce before I even told my ex that I was leaving. 

I get why you dread going through this with him, there is potential for him being horrible. BUT, I thought that would be my situation when I split with my angry ex, and as it turned out, after initial hurt and anger, he was pretty cooperative and willing to work together to get things done. Certainly was unexpected based on his past behavior.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> he puts me in that position


He doesn't put YOU in ANY position. 

This is 100% YOUR choice to accept this arrangement.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> For four days he thought I was filing for divorce because I told him I would be. Those four days he made my life miserable. I think that's part of my hesitation right now.


More Abuse 101.

I have a book for you to read. You seriously need to educate yourself.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

One problem with staying is that it takes a toll on your self-confidence and sense of self-worth, but it happens so slowly you don't notice it. There's just a small difference day-to-day, but all those days add up. Look back at your social media posts from a long time ago. Do you recognize that person? Was she happy, outgoing, hopeful, etc.? Are you still that person? Or has your self-confidence taken a beating? Sometimes you get so beaten down that you don't think you deserve to be happy and you can't find the motivation to change the situation. 

As you are pondering what to do, take a few steps back and try to look at the situation objectively. Your emotions are going to be tied up in all that you're going through, and may be clouding your judgement.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

That was my life until the start of this year when we separated, with some small differences. I did take all that responsibility on my shoulders. I did try and try to meet his expectations in the bedroom while constantly being told I was never good enough and not trying hard enough. I can barely stand to think about it. Our entire marriage he blamed our sex life on me, it wasn't exciting enough, he didn't feel desired enough, I wasn't horny enough, and he ripped every shred of confidence from me because I believed him. I got to a very bad place last year. I stopped caring anymore about the lack of affection, about him avoiding me, about having dinner ready for him on the table when he waltzed in from his hobby at 9pm at night. In the end he said he wanted a sexless marriage, I said no, I moved out, and *poof*, out popped the 21 yr old he'd been seeing behind my back for the past year (but it's not cheating because he didn't sleep with her until after I moved out, apparently).

Now that I'm away from all that I can now honestly say that I'm not the woman he tried to make me believe I was, I'm loving sex (a little stubborn part of me knew there was more to me than what I felt free to express with him) and I am finally starting to love my self and my body again. 

The point is, I don't think accepting all the blame will change anything, but go ahead and test it. What have you got to lose? If it magically changes his behaviour, great (yeah, not a chance), if not, you'll finally start to accept the person you married is no longer the person you want.

I see the whole 'power struggle' thing a bit differently after being in it, now being out of it. I feel it's a waste of time. You will always lose with someone who's always trying to win, because you can't change them. That's the crux of it. You just turn into someone you don't want to be, locked in a stupid power struggle and wondering what you're getting out of it. Nothing is what you get out of it. Absolutely nothing.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

lucy999 said:


> The reason I first joined this forum was because my at the time newish boyfriend, now my fiance, we both hit a problematic patch with our sex life. We are sexually incompatible. At first we were having sex every night because it was new and exciting. That's normal. Then it decreased. Alot. The quality was pitiful. I thought he had low testosterone. Or he flat out wasn't attracted to me. Not that I'm all that and a bag of chips but I'd never have that be an issue before so that really hurt. We talked and cried together. He even went to the doctor at my request. His T levels were normal at the time. This is how my situation differs from yours. He told me he loved me and he wanted to find a way to make our situation work. He suggested a sex therapist and counseling. HE DID!!! To me, that's what true love looks like. He gave me no ultimatums and demanded that I admitted everything was my fault. That's a huge deal for a man to say and propose such a thing. Machismo and all.
> 
> It was rough. I am not going to sit here and lie to you and tell you that everything is 100% roses. But it is SO much better and I can totally live with it! Do we have sex as much as I want to? No. Is the quality of our sex better? Oh yes!!! I have learned and he has learned. We both have gone out of our comfort zones to make each other happy in the bedroom. And I love him all the more for that very reason.
> 
> That, my sweet lady, is what love looks like.


I wish I'd realised that a long time ago, but that would take accepting that they love being right more than they love you, and that's an incredibly hurtful thing to accept, until you're forced to.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Yes, 3x................I am serious. There are other good qualities he has. And it's 25 years and 2 kids - a family that would be changed forever. If I could easily save that family by answering ONE question differently, then would it be worth it? That's what I am battling. Do I swallow my pride and get things back on the right track OR do I have to be "right" and say what I really feel for the sake of keeping everything together.


So you gave this D-bag a whole year to come to his senses and stop acting like a damned ignorant teenage kid and the mental year is up.

And he's done nothing in this year - he's *still* a nasty, stubborn, ignorant little man-child.

You *drew* your line in the sand and since he won't back down, you're all set to swallow your pride, eat the **** sandwich that's been sitting on your plate, and basically become a welcome mat for this man-child - all because you're desperate for attention and affection.

I'm actually embarrassed FOR you.


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm actually embarrassed FOR you.


Is this really necessary? Chances are very high that LilMissSunshine already feels gutted having to endure her husband’s cruelty and manipulation, to say nothing of what rejection and surviving a sexless marriage can do to one’s self-esteem. 

Is telling someone you’re embarrassed for them helpful? And saying she is a **** sandwich eating doormat who is “desperate for attention and affection” because she wants to end the stalemate in her sexless marriage in the hopes of reviving intimacy…what purpose does that serve? 

Is the goal to shame her into action? I’m thinking she’s already dealing with enough ruthless shaming tactics from one ******* in her life, she doesn’t need strangers piling on.

Posting about her sexless marriage and what it’s doing to her probably took a lot of courage and strength. 

You may disagree, but what we say here matters. People are often in pain, hurting, and at the end of their rope when they post. They’re seeking support to not fashion that rope into a noose and they need help to untangle the mess. 

Being caustic and casually cruel only serve to ensure that person feels more isolated, alone, and insecure, and makes them less likely to seek help again. 

And others struggling in intimacy-starved sexless marriages reading this forum trying to gather the resolve to post or take the first step in repairing their broken sense of self may view unkind comments like this as validation that they should remain silently suffering.

I hope you take this post in the vein it is intended. I have zero interest in drama or arguing, but it is my wish that those seeking succor are met with some compassion and kindness. You don’t have to understand their choices but being understanding can make all the difference.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> Is this really necessary? Chances are very high that LilMissSunshine already feels gutted having to endure her husband’s cruelty and manipulation, to say nothing of what rejection and surviving a sexless marriage can do to one’s self-esteem.
> 
> Is telling someone you’re embarrassed for them helpful? And saying she is a **** sandwich eating doormat who is “desperate for attention and affection” because she wants to end the stalemate in her sexless marriage in the hopes of reviving intimacy…what purpose does that serve?
> 
> ...


I'll leave the back patting and tongue clucking to other posters because we all know how effective it is to have post after post after post trying to make the OP 'feel good.' I've seen people like this wallow in the same crap situation year after year after year because everyone is falling all over themselves trying to make the OP feel better about doing nothing to get out of the hell they're in.

Truth is, the OP gave herself an ultimatum of *one year*. The abuse has continued for *one year*. She had a plan to get herself out of this situation and now that the year is up, instead of doing something positive like she'd planned, she's now back-peddling and talking herself right back into *more* abuse with this ass-hole just because she's lonely for affection. Not because he's right. And the price for that affection from this jerk is swallowing her own pride, ignoring her own boundaries, disrespecting herself and pandering to an abusive ass-hole who in the end, will see that his nasty and abusive behavior works because it got him what he wanted. 

Sugarcoat it all you want - those are the facts.

I stand by my post. That's the beauty of the internet - when you ask a bunch of strangers for free advice, you're going to get a plethora of responses, and they're not all going to be sugar and spice and everything nice. That's just the way it is.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We used to have a poster on another forum who was like you; she didn't sugarcoat anything. But she also didn't censor her mouth and most of her posts came out hurtful instead of helpful. There are ways to say things that are strong and effective without calling someone an idiot.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I just hate this. *I don't know any other females that have to beg for attention*. It's usually the opposite, they have no interest. Why can't I be like them? You are probably right.............he will come up with something else. I am going to approach him tonight - or by the end of the week for sure - with SOME conversation. I don't know what yet. That's why I posted. I need to figure out what I will or will not say.


Actually, men choose to make their marriages sexless at about the same rate that women do. It's just that most women will not talk about it because they blame themselves. After all, we are constantly told that men just want sex all the time. So if our husband does not want sex with us, there must be something very wrong with us.

There are a fair number of women on TAM whose husbands do not want sex with them and are not even affectionate. Here's a thread that might give you some new perspective. It's a long thread so read at least the first few pages. 

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-sex-starved-wife.html

Anger is generally the basis for withholding sex. It's a passive aggressive way to punish one's spouse. Your husband seems to be caught in this cycle. It takes two of keep a marriage working. Your husband has checked out. You gave it more than a year. It's probably time to end the marriage.


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'll leave the back patting and tongue clucking to other posters because we all know how effective it is to have post after post after post trying to make the OP 'feel good.' I've seen people like this wallow in the same crap situation year after year after year because everyone is falling all over themselves trying to make the OP feel better about doing nothing to get out of the hell they're in.
> 
> Truth is, the OP gave herself an ultimatum of *one year*. The abuse has continued for *one year*. She had a plan to get herself out of this situation and now that the year is up, instead of doing something positive like she'd planned, she's now back-peddling and talking herself right back into *more* abuse with this ass-hole just because she's lonely for affection. Not because he's right. And the price for that affection from this jerk is swallowing her own pride, ignoring her own boundaries, disrespecting herself and pandering to an abusive ass-hole who in the end, will see that his nasty and abusive behavior works because it got him what he wanted.
> 
> ...


The beauty of the internet is rather ugly. And this isn’t just “the internet”. It’s a marriage forum where people come for help with their relationships, sometimes in the worst pain of their lives. We all agree to treat people with dignity and respect here when we create an account. 

Spreading vitriol all over the forum isn’t treating people with respect or helping; it’s not even interesting or original. It’s self-serving, cruel, and petty.

I don’t see post after post of people patting OP on the back and trying to make her feel good. I see genuinely concerned people sharing relevant life experience and encouraging her to make plans to leave. 

It’s rather insulting to reduce what the women and men here have shared and how hard they work to counsel, support, and help OPs to “back patting and tongue clucking”. They give fair, intelligent, practical, assertive advice without being demeaning, belittling, and aggressive. It’s not “sugar and spice and everything nice”, it’s called not being an insightful, secure, functional adult.

No one is encouraging OP to swallow her pride and give in to manipulation and disrespect. Most posters here, myself included, think she needs to make an exit strategy and leave her abusive husband. 

I don’t see how insulting her will help her to that end. As Tunera already pointed out, there is a way to say things effectively without being rude and hurtful. 

As Ele let OP know, there are lots of women struggling in sexless marriages, we just don’t hear about it a lot because they usually suffer in silence and blame themselves. They’re already embarrassed and hurting, so I still do not see the point or effectiveness in telling someone who is suffering that you’re embarrassed for them and adding insult to injury. It’s kicking someone when they are down…and ensuring that they stay down.

We will agree to disagree, but being cruel for cruelty’s sake shouldn’t be something to be proud of, nor is it remotely helpful or inspiring.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

turnera said:


> We used to have a poster on another forum who was like you; she didn't sugarcoat anything. But she also didn't censor her mouth and most of her posts came out hurtful instead of helpful. There are ways to say things that are strong and effective without calling someone an idiot.


Yep. I've encountered people like that too. Their lack of care trumpets their own dysfunction.

And they can be rather Catty 🙂


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

personofinterest said:


> Yep. I've encountered people like that too. Their lack of care trumpets their own dysfunction.
> 
> And they can be rather Catty 🙂


No, to be fair, this other poster really did care, as I know SSGI cares. More than most, actually. She just had a personality that was so in your face that she couldn't comprehend being LESS than that. She got kicked off that forum at least once or twice a year, for hurting people. But she really wanted them to get better. She just couldn't reprogram how she spoke to people.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I have read everyone's responses just haven't been able to post from work. I agree this R is abusive. It's taken me a while to see it as I always saw "abuse" as physical, domestic violence, etc. I have an audio book I have listened to for the last 2 days and I am seeing it very clear in black and white (well, it's audible - I guess I'm hearing it in black and white, lol). I am learning that years of it gradually reduces your self-esteem and self-confidence AND that it takes the average person 7 attempts at leaving before they actually do (I've tried THREE TIMES in the past), so this is not surprising now that I heard it. Also, I learned about TRAUMA BOND (Had heard of that before) and how it explains why it is so hard to leave in light of all of the bad behavior. I wish I could find a counselor that has experience with abusive R's. The one that I saw for so long while she was good, never suggested abuse was at play. Everything in these books I have listened to and am reading point to emotional abuse. I think as long as I am here AND if I do get the courage to go, I am going to need a counselor that 'gets' abuse - the chipping away at self-esteem that leaves you feeling lower than dirt, the trauma bond that keeps you there, etc.

Thanks everyone for listening and sharing - the intellectual side of me knows and understands. And now I see why I am having so much trouble following through (or so I think). But I'm not giving up!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I bet if you went to some nationwide abuse organization, they would be able to point you to a list of qualified therapists in your area.

Which book are you listening to?


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

turnera said:


> I bet if you went to some nationwide abuse organization, they would be able to point you to a list of qualified therapists in your area.
> 
> Which book are you listening to?


Turnera, I am reading and listening to "Why Does He Do That? INside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft and "When Loving Him is Hurting You" by Dr. David Hawkins. I recently finished "If He's So Great, Why do I Feel So Bad?" by Avery Neal. I have one more I haven't started yet "Healing from Hidden Abuse: A Journey" by Shannon Thomas.

Some of what you all have shared on here (Wilson's comments in particular, and some of yours) are very similar to what is included in some of these books.

I will look into an organization that might can help. I don't know which ones deal specifically with emotional abuse. I am thinking if I call one for domestic violence it will only be for the physical abuse situations, but I may just because I don't know where else to start.

Also, several of the books pointed out how the emotional abuse can be even worse because it is more of a constant vs. the physical, which is often sporadic. So you are exposed to it. I will never forget after the last big incident it took me four days to mentally and physically calm down. It did something to my ability to function as a normal adult. I am feeling less and less bad about not being able to make a decisive move - knowing I probably still do need to do something, but less like I am 'less than' because I cannot seem to muster the whatever it takes to do something. It honestly does something to you inside. I am truly RELIEVED reading the whole trauma bonding thing. I think there is a lot of validity to it in these situations.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's awesome! WDHDT? is the bible on abuse; very thorough and correct.

Emotional abuse is worse because it's much easier to walk away from a black eye but what the emotional abuser does is convince you that it is all YOUR fault, and you therefore feel like if you try to get out, YOU are the bad guy. It's crazymaking. 

I try to remember to tell people in your situation one thing: If you had known when you married that your husband would belittle you, would you have married him? If you'd known he would refuse to take responsibility when he did something wrong, would you have stayed? If you'd known he would feel it's ok to call names and shame and criticize the person you 'love,' would you have stayed?

Of course you wouldn't. So why would you stay now when it's been PROVEN that he will do those things and not care? He broke his promise to love you.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

I thought the title of the book was intriguing, didn't know it was THE book to read - but glad I picked it!

I am truly learning so much. And you are right. The times I did try to leave he made me out to be the bad guy. What I also struggle with now are the breadcrumbs of niceness he will leave. We'll have one of those incidents and then when things settle down he goes into 'nice' mode and I relapse thinking things are going to get better. Looking down from a bird's eye view after reading/listening to the books and coming here, I am seeing patterns...............that's there is always a bad/good/bad/good. It never STAYS in the 'good mode'. That, trauma bonding, and getting sucked into to reminiscing through pictures, cards, etc. are what keeps me stuck. I think I will eventually get the strength to be bold, but personally feel like I am doing a great job understanding the 'whys' behind my inability to move forward in a positive direction. It's not because I am lazy, stupid, or a doormat, for sure 



turnera said:


> That's awesome! WDHDT? is the bible on abuse; very thorough and correct.
> 
> Emotional abuse is worse because it's much easier to walk away from a black eye but what the emotional abuser does is convince you that it is all YOUR fault, and you therefore feel like if you try to get out, YOU are the bad guy. It's crazymaking.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, there's nothing wrong with you. 

My IC had me write up a list of what a perfect partner would be like. A good, solid, logical list with things like never spends big money without consulting me first, never makes fun of me to other people, takes care of me sexually before he takes care of himself, accepts blame when he does something wrong. 

Once you have a list like that, with a good 20 items on it, print it out and keep a copy in your purse, on your desk at work, any place where you can look at it at least once a day. If you don't end up leaving him immediately (my recommendation), read that list every day and compare that perfect guy to what you got stuck with. It will help you realize that even if he does throw you a bone now and then to reel you back in, he's still a piece of sh*t 90% of the time. And THAT person doesn't deserve you. 

Now, you can go ahead and try and tell him what a decent husband looks like, tell him he's free to try to BE that person - but don't hold your breath. He'll just turn it around on you, laugh at you. 

So do it in your head. If you do it long enough and compare the sh*t you go through every day because of him to what he SHOULD be like, you'll eventually stop falling for his bullsh*t. And eventually, you'll have had enough and you'll just leave him.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I thought the title of the book was intriguing, didn't know it was THE book to read - but glad I picked it!
> 
> I am truly learning so much. And you are right. The times I did try to leave he made me out to be the bad guy. What I also struggle with now are the breadcrumbs of niceness he will leave. We'll have one of those incidents and then when things settle down he goes into 'nice' mode and I relapse thinking things are going to get better. Looking down from a bird's eye view after reading/listening to the books and coming here, I am seeing patterns...............that's there is always a bad/good/bad/good. It never STAYS in the 'good mode'. That, trauma bonding, and getting sucked into to reminiscing through pictures, cards, etc. are what keeps me stuck. I think I will eventually get the strength to be bold, but personally feel like I am doing a great job understanding the 'whys' behind my inability to move forward in a positive direction. It's not because I am lazy, stupid, or a doormat, for sure


That pattern is what I learned to recognize too, it just took me forever to see it. Near the end and on the good days I had to place all my focus on the bad stuff, keep it front and center in my mind because for years the good days would normally have me backsliding into staying but I finally realized that nothing was changing. Focusing on the bad was absolutely necessary in order to keep things straight in my mind. The good days would throw things off and introduce second thoughts and have me questioning myself as to whether things were really as bad as I was making them out to be and then I would begin to feel as if I was the one creating these problems and that the only thing wrong was me. 

All of that combined with him never accepting responsibility for his behavior and placing all the blame for everything on me left me in quite a sorry state. I totally withdrew from life and sat on my corner of the couch playing on my iPad for hours and hours when I was home. I didn’t want to have to deal with anything, anything at all. I became a literal shell. It wasn’t until my sons girlfriend was killed in a car accident that I woke up and saw that my life was slipping away and for what? It wasn’t to long after that that I came here and sought help. 

I don’t think a situation like this, one that’s been growing for over two decades, CAN be dealt with quickly. Things need to be analyzed, understood and fully absorbed before action can begin. Then there’s the fear of the unknown to face and that seems harder to face than reality. It’s a slow process and a necessary one I think.


Edited to add:

Even now, after having moved out and gotten away I still experience feelings like there could have been more I could have done to make things better, like it’s my fault still. Intellectually I know this is just the groove that’s been worn in my mind and it’s not accurate but the affects of 25 years of this stuff obviously lingers, I just don’t know for how long.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Knowing how simple it would be - all I have to do is say "YES, prior problems were ALL my fault in that area" 
Then he can say, you admitted this was your fault. 

On the one year mark, you can say, Yes prior problems were ALL MY FAULT IN THAT AREA. 

1) I tolerated your manipulative garbage and crap and still tried to love you. That's my fault. 

2) I dealt with your crap and still tried to have a normal relationship, That's my fault. 

3) I retained some affection for a mean, petty, little man who thinks that vindictive bs can build love and genuine relationships, that's my fault. I took my marriage vows seriously that's my fault. 

So guess what chief. Fine, absolutely no more intimacy, you can never touch me again. But you warped, miserable, manipulative, dysfunctional man, you want me to say, It's all my fault, you can get that whenever you want and I'll be happy to initiate too.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

All the books mentioned in this thread are great.

I also highly recommend these 3 books to help you in your healing:

(1) The Body Keeps the Score - Brain, Mind and Body in the Healing of Trauma 
by Bessel Van Der Kolk, M.D.

https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-S...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

(2) The Betrayal Bond - Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships 
by Patrick J. Carnes, PhD.

https://www.amazon.com/Betrayal-Bon...preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

(3) The Tao of Fully Feeling
by Pete Walker

https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Fully-Fe...preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=srch


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I thought the title of the book was intriguing, didn't know it was THE book to read - but glad I picked it!
> 
> I am truly learning so much. And you are right. The times I did try to leave he made me out to be the bad guy. What I also struggle with now are the breadcrumbs of niceness he will leave. We'll have one of those incidents and then when things settle down he goes into 'nice' mode and I relapse thinking things are going to get better. Looking down from a bird's eye view after reading/listening to the books and coming here, I am seeing patterns...............that's there is always a bad/good/bad/good. It never STAYS in the 'good mode'. That, trauma bonding, and getting sucked into to reminiscing through pictures, cards, etc. are what keeps me stuck. I think I will eventually get the strength to be bold, but personally feel like I am doing a great job understanding the 'whys' behind my inability to move forward in a positive direction. It's not because I am lazy, stupid, or a doormat, for sure


This is known as "The Abuse Cycle". Please google "The Abuse Cycle" and read as much as you can about it. I think (if I remember correctly) some of the books already mentioned may explain it in detail.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Turnera, I am reading and listening to "Why Does He Do That? INside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft and "When Loving Him is Hurting You" by Dr. David Hawkins. I recently finished "If He's So Great, Why do I Feel So Bad?" by Avery Neal. I have one more I haven't started yet "Healing from Hidden Abuse: A Journey" by Shannon Thomas.
> 
> Some of what you all have shared on here (Wilson's comments in particular, and some of yours) are very similar to what is included in some of these books.
> 
> ...


It's so awesome to read and get educated on all of it - but it's much better to make a decision that changes things - to actually take action to be sure of change.

I had read loads of books when I was younger... but I never made decisions and took action to change my life.

Until... lots of things crossed my healthy boundary...and I divorced him.

Then - without my lifestyle... I had a meltdown... but I picked myself up and saw a trauma counselor every week for a year. That changed my life for the better!

I became a strong woman - one who makes solid decisions and takes charge of her future.

I will never again leave my happiness in any mans hands. It's up to me to have guidelines that keep me happy, healthy and safe - and if anyone crosses over those boundaries I know to eliminate them quickly from my daily life.

Don't get me wrong - I can't eliminate all those years of abuse - some still haunt me or sneak in when I least expect it - but I have managed to be strong and courageous while being my soft self.

I hope you will gain strength and take action that will change your life (for the better)!

I look back and wonder what took me so long to wake up...


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I could, BUT, I don't want to give up my rights to the house as I would be the one staying in it (we discussed this the time we thought we were going our separate ways) AND I don't want it to be an issue with seeing the 16-year old. H would likely claim 'abandonment' and I would get in some sort of trouble with legal issues surrounding that, I'm sure. But YES, I could decide to get everything all organized and plan to FILE and tell him then, but don't think I could just move out. For sure he will never be surprised by this as we have been having troubles for years - and we both have been pretty unhappy. S o it would not be blindsiding him at all - but am scared of what all I would give up.


Believe me - I gave up a LOT!

But I gained my self respect and happiness - which is priceless and worth it ALL!

I have peace (yes peace) of mind and serenity every single day now... NOTHING can beat this feeling! Nothing!

It's worth whatever you forfeit!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> Is this really necessary? Chances are very high that LilMissSunshine already feels gutted having to endure her husband’s cruelty and manipulation, to say nothing of what rejection and surviving a sexless marriage can do to one’s self-esteem.
> 
> Is telling someone you’re embarrassed for them helpful? And saying she is a **** sandwich eating doormat who is “desperate for attention and affection” because she wants to end the stalemate in her sexless marriage in the hopes of reviving intimacy…what purpose does that serve?
> 
> ...


It’s simply a well intentioned 2 x 4; sometimes people need one, as in this case. OP, U gave it a year, now you are wringing your hands, why? why are you letting yourself down over and over?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Beach123 said:


> Believe me - I gave up a LOT!
> 
> But I gained my self respect and happiness - which is priceless and worth it ALL!
> 
> ...


I completely agree. I gave up everything and don't for a moment regret it. It was worth it.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Thanks everyone for listening and sharing - the intellectual side of me knows and understands. And now I see why I am having so much trouble following through (or so I think). But I'm not giving up!


What are you not giving up? Your emotional attachment to a dead marriage or your intellectual commitment to finally kill it?
Having read this entire thread I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would attempt to rationalize or explain this as a remotely functional marriage. Absent some really bad physical infirmities, I can see no reason why anyone would want to continue in a truly sexless marriage.
I was married for 24 years. Towards the end, the sex life was perhaps 3 times a month at best and even that involved her going thru the motions (don't worry about me, just do what you have to). I was extremely unhappy. I cannot begin to imagine the level of sexual frustration from over a year without.
As a 50 year old woman (unless you have allowed yourself to go to seed), you will very much be in demand. Your 16 year old is not a child and is easily able to understand what is going on NOW. All you are doing is teaching them that what you have is perfectly acceptable. If you want a better life for your child then the one you have for yourself, then just get a divorce and get on with whatever you want to do to make yourself happy.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I thought the title of the book was intriguing, didn't know it was THE book to read - but glad I picked it!
> 
> I am truly learning so much. And you are right. The times I did try to leave he made me out to be the bad guy. What I also struggle with now are the breadcrumbs of niceness he will leave. We'll have one of those incidents and then when things settle down he goes into 'nice' mode and I relapse thinking things are going to get better. Looking down from a bird's eye view after reading/listening to the books and coming here, I am seeing patterns...............that's there is always a bad/good/bad/good. It never STAYS in the 'good mode'. That, trauma bonding, and getting sucked into to reminiscing through pictures, cards, etc. are what keeps me stuck. I think I will eventually get the strength to be bold, but personally feel like I am doing a great job understanding the 'whys' behind my inability to move forward in a positive direction. It's not because I am lazy, stupid, or a doormat, for sure


Don't allow your new found enlightenment be a rationalization for staying put. Yes, it takes on average seven attempts to finally break free. That doesn't mean you have four more times to be average. It means you are way ahead of the norm in your understanding, and there is no point in understanding any of this if you don't actually do something with that knowledge.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Not said:


> Edited to add:
> 
> Even now, after having moved out and gotten away I still experience feelings like there could have been more I could have done to make things better, like it’s my fault still. Intellectually I know this is just the groove that’s been worn in my mind and it’s not accurate but the affects of 25 years of this stuff obviously lingers, I just don’t know for how long.


YES - this is me. I always ask myself if there is MORE I can do. Like it is my fault. What HAVE I done? Offered to go to counseling for six years - and have went on my own off and on for six years - he adamantly and angrily refused, offered to set up medical appointments for him to get checked to see if he had any physical problems that could be easily remedied (he adamantly refused), tried "nice-ing" him in every way that I know how. NOTHING is getting the affection or attraction that I so desperately want. I truly am beginning to realize there aren't many things left to try, if any. I can almost say that NO, I don't think there is anything else I could do, except admit to him that it is all my fault (which is what he said it would take), which I don't believe in my heart. But like you, the question was/is "is there more I could/should do?"


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Beach123 said:


> Then - without my lifestyle... I had a meltdown... but I picked myself up and saw a trauma counselor every week for a year. That changed my life for the better!
> 
> 
> 
> I look back and wonder what took me so long to wake up...


Beach, what kind of meltdown and what do you mean your lifestyle? One of the things I fear is lifestyle - I have worked so hard to get to a point where I don't have to worry about every dollar, can actually DO things, and worry about counting every penny, going ALLLLL the way back to where I was 30 years ago when I was single and struggling. But I do remember being happy then, too. I think some of my fears involve taking many, many steps back and starting over again like I was in my 20's, which is scary when you are 50+ and not as many years to catch back up. Tell me more about your meltdown and the lifestyle stuff, please


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Giving up a home that was paid for (now will have to take out a mortgage to buy him out), will probably have to get two jobs instead of one to be able to cover my bills (so giving up time that I could be spending with my youngest child or doing other productive things like going back to school - instead will have to work a second job), giving up what would have been a decent retirement, things that people 50+ don't have as much energy or time left to recoup. And more. Those are just off the top of my head.





Ynot said:


> What are you not giving up? Your emotional attachment to a dead marriage or your intellectual commitment to finally kill it?
> Having read this entire thread I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would attempt to rationalize or explain this as a remotely functional marriage. Absent some really bad physical infirmities, I can see no reason why anyone would want to continue in a truly sexless marriage.
> I was married for 24 years. Towards the end, the sex life was perhaps 3 times a month at best and even that involved her going thru the motions (don't worry about me, just do what you have to). I was extremely unhappy. I cannot begin to imagine the level of sexual frustration from over a year without.
> As a 50 year old woman (unless you have allowed yourself to go to seed), you will very much be in demand. Your 16 year old is not a child and is easily able to understand what is going on NOW. All you are doing is teaching them that what you have is perfectly acceptable. If you want a better life for your child then the one you have for yourself, then just get a divorce and get on with whatever you want to do to make yourself happy.


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

samyeagar said:


> Don't allow your new found enlightenment be a rationalization for staying put. Yes, it takes on average seven attempts to finally break free. That doesn't mean you have four more times to be average. It means you are way ahead of the norm in your understanding, and there is no point in understanding any of this if you don't actually do something with that knowledge.



Believe it or not, I told myself this very thing! It doesn't mean that *I* have to take seven times! Absolutely agree with you!!


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## LilMissSunshine (Apr 10, 2015)

Ynot said:


> What are you not giving up? Your emotional attachment to a dead marriage or your intellectual commitment to finally kill it?
> 
> As a 50 year old woman (unless you have allowed yourself to go to seed), you will very much be in demand.


Real life horror stories from friends who have tried OLD. Obviously affection and companionship is important to me since that's the issue in this M., so I will at some point want another R. But the pickings are slim! I have two friends with COUNTLESS horror stories. And these are amazing and attractive women. I sooo do not want to find myself alone since I am obviously one that likes and desperately wants an emotional connection and relationship with someone. I have not let myself go and look better than I did years ago, honestly - but so do they - and they have had a horrible time.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I sooo do not want to find myself alone since I am obviously one that likes and desperately wants an emotional connection and relationship with someone.


But don't you see???

You are already alone...

Alone in a dead marriage...

Where you do not have an emotional connection or relationship even though you are married.

If you are going to be alone in your marriage (and you are), you might as well be alone, alone.

Free your self!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LilMissSunshine said:


> YES - this is me. I always ask myself if there is MORE I can do. Like it is my fault. What HAVE I done? Offered to go to counseling for six years - and have went on my own off and on for six years - he adamantly and angrily refused, offered to set up medical appointments for him to get checked to see if he had any physical problems that could be easily remedied (he adamantly refused), tried "nice-ing" him in every way that I know how. NOTHING is getting the affection or attraction that I so desperately want. I truly am beginning to realize there aren't many things left to try, if any. I can almost say that NO, I don't think there is anything else I could do, except admit to him that it is all my fault (which is what he said it would take), which I don't believe in my heart. But like you, the question was/is "is there more I could/should do?"


This is why the list of a decent partner is so important. A list of the good qualities in a spouse - or even a list of the bad qualities that you should never ACCEPT in a spouse.

If you see it all written down on paper, it is SO much easier to see that even if you were Mother Teresa, you still never deserved to be given such a sh*t husband.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Deleted


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

@LilMissSunshine it is better to accept and deal with people as they are, not how we wish they were.

It is not healthy to expect people to give you something they don't have to give, such as love, respect, reciprocity etc.'

If they don't have it in them to give what you need, it makes no sense to keep expecting and trying to get them to give it.

People cannot give you something they don't have.

P.S. I am not suggesting you accept abuse. I am suggesting you recognize that he is an abuser and stop expecting him to be a non abuser.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

What Wild Mustang said above ties in very nicely with something I want to share as well. One poster here at TAM once told me that projection works both ways. Negative people will project their negativity onto others but positive people do the same. We are capable of projecting our own good intentions onto others. That complicates things further when you don’t realize that’s what you may be doing.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Giving up a home that was paid for (now will have to take out a mortgage to buy him out), will probably have to get two jobs instead of one to be able to cover my bills (so giving up time that I could be spending with my youngest child or doing other productive things like going back to school - instead will have to work a second job), giving up what would have been a decent retirement, things that people 50+ don't have as much energy or time left to recoup. And more. Those are just off the top of my head.


These are just excuses.

You made a promise to yourself- keep it!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I thought the title of the book was intriguing, didn't know it was THE book to read - but glad I picked it!
> 
> I am truly learning so much. And you are right. The times I did try to leave he made me out to be the bad guy. What I also struggle with now are the breadcrumbs of niceness he will leave. *We'll have one of those incidents and then when things settle down he goes into 'nice' mode and I relapse thinking things are going to get better. Looking down from a bird's eye view after reading/listening to the books and coming here, I am seeing patterns...............that's there is always a bad/good/bad/good. It never STAYS in the 'good mode'. *That, trauma bonding, and getting sucked into to reminiscing through pictures, cards, etc. are what keeps me stuck. I think I will eventually get the strength to be bold, but personally feel like I am doing a great job understanding the 'whys' behind my inability to move forward in a positive direction. It's not because I am lazy, stupid, or a doormat, for sure


Ah yes, the pattern, good you are seeing it. We are blind to it for a while, as it kinda creeps in over time. 

The pattern with my XH2... he would have a massive blowup at me over nothing. Literally, nothing. I never knew someone who could blow nothing into something large and ridiculous like he could... and my first ex had anger issues! Anyway. Big blowup at me... then silent treatment. I would walk on eggshells and try and draw him out, because I hated not having "him" (the good part) engaging with me. Eventually he would just start talking to me again, like nothing happened. No apology EVER. And I would be so glad to have "him" back again, I would just let it go and carry on like normal. At first, it would be one or two days. Then as time went on, it got to be longer and longer... 3, 4, 5 days. Also when it first happened, the incidents would be pretty long in between, like months. That time also got shorter and shorter, to where it would be every other week or so. I eventually did stop the whole tippy toe thing, and just acted like he wasnt even there, sure made it easier to deal with. 

Finally one day when we were in the car on a trip out of town, he flew into a rage at me when he realized we still had an hour to go to reach our destination. My daughter was in the back seat during all this. I was crying while I was driving with him yelling at me, and he said something so nasty and mean to me aimed towards my daughter...that I finally heard it... the CLICK. And that was it, I was done. It hit me at that moment not only just how awful he was, but that this was never going to change. The pattern. He was going to do this to me, then never, ever apologize for it and expect me to just carry on like nothing happened. And this was something that would never be able to be ok with, this fit and what he had said. He knew things had changed when he went to hug me later and thank me for something, and I just didnt respond. 

Things were much different between us, worse, after that trip, and I left him within a year. I had already filed for bankruptcy in the anticipation of divorce before this incident even happened. I hadnt made up my mind for sure, but I knew things werent good and that I was not going to be able to support myself with all my debt if I decided to leave. Hence the bankruptcy. This incident happened about a month after that was finalized, then by some miracle I got a new job, making a significantly higher salary. Within six months, my daughter and I moved out. 

I guess you need to ask yourself...how many more times are you going to have to watch that pattern play out before its reality takes hold? His telling you to take all the blame here is beyond sick. Oh and by the way, online dating is NOT a requirement of being single!


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

I agree - being single is a freedom I never expected!

Don't worry about dating now - just do things to get single.

Single means no one tells you what to do or not do. It's pretty nice! ....especially after I was with a controlling manipulative monster for 27 years.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Giving up a home that was paid for (now will have to take out a mortgage to buy him out), will probably have to get two jobs instead of one to be able to cover my bills (so giving up time that I could be spending with my youngest child or doing other productive things like going back to school - instead will have to work a second job), giving up what would have been a decent retirement, things that people 50+ don't have as much energy or time left to recoup. And more. Those are just off the top of my head.


Anything you lose you can still recover and then some. I was married for 24 years. When my wife left I blew up my world. I sold my house and closed my business. I moved from the country to a city over 2 hours away. I gave up everything. Today, less than 4 years later, I have my own house, I have re-opened my business, and have a whole new circle of friends. I have freedom and I have more money than I ever had while I was married.
To me it sounds like you are just looking for justification to remain stuck where you are. Because apparently you are not so unhappy being in a sexless relationship to consider giving up the temporary comfort of the material.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Real life horror stories from friends who have tried OLD. Obviously affection and companionship is important to me since that's the issue in this M., so I will at some point want another R. But the pickings are slim! I have two friends with COUNTLESS horror stories. And these are amazing and attractive women. I sooo do not want to find myself alone since I am obviously one that likes and desperately wants an emotional connection and relationship with someone. I have not let myself go and look better than I did years ago, honestly - but so do they - and they have had a horrible time.


If your friends are depending on OLD to make their lives complete, they are fools. Of course if they share your desperation, they will be disappointed, because you are making your happiness dependent upon someone else. Until you understand that there is only one person responsible for your happiness - YOU, you are destined to remain alone forever, whether in this sham marriage or on the outside. If you are truly as weak as you come across, stay where you are and continue to live a fake life. The child you claim to care so much about will learn the lesson that a sexless marriage with material comfort is better than being happy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ynot said:


> Anything you lose you can still recover and then some. I was married for 24 years. When my wife left I blew up my world. I sold my house and closed my business. I moved from the country to a city over 2 hours away. I gave up everything. Today, less than 4 years later, I have my own house, I have re-opened my business, and have a whole new circle of friends. I have freedom and I have more money than I ever had while I was married.
> To me it sounds like you are just looking for justification to remain stuck where you are. Because apparently you are not so unhappy being in a sexless relationship to consider giving up the temporary comfort of the material.


It's not so much that, I think, as the fact that you are an abuse victim and are therefore incapable of understanding the vast benefits of a life OUTSIDE of abuse. I watched this season's first episode of Law & Order -about a man who abused his sons, even to the point of raping his son to 'punish' him for not being man enough to shoot a rabbit. The wife did nothing. Over and over again, until she simply couldn't look the other way, and told the truth. It wasn't that she was a bad person, she loved her kids and wanted to protect them. But she saw maintaining the status quo - even if her kids were getting raped - as better than what would happen if she tried to leave him, because he had CONDITIONED her through abuse to believe that there WAS nothing better out there to be had and that even if she tried, she was too stupid or weak or defective to be able to go out there and GET that something better. 

So she stayed. 

In the end, that 15 year old kid ended up going into school and shooting a bunch of students to 'prove' to his dad that he wasn't a girl, wasn't a p*ssy. Even then the mom wouldn't leave, after her son went away to prison. It wasn't until the police/prosecutor got the husband put away that she and her other son were free of him.

My point is that it's easy to tell abuse victims what they should be doing. It's much harder to BE one and see that life away from the abuser is going to be better.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

turnera said:


> It's not so much that, I think, as the fact that you are an abuse victim and are therefore incapable of understanding the vast benefits of a life OUTSIDE of abuse. I watched this season's first episode of Law & Order -about a man who abused his sons, even to the point of raping his son to 'punish' him for not being man enough to shoot a rabbit. The wife did nothing. Over and over again, until she simply couldn't look the other way, and told the truth. It wasn't that she was a bad person, she loved her kids and wanted to protect them. But she saw maintaining the status quo - even if her kids were getting raped - as better than what would happen if she tried to leave him, because he had CONDITIONED her through abuse to believe that there WAS nothing better out there to be had and that even if she tried, she was too stupid or weak or defective to be able to go out there and GET that something better.
> 
> So she stayed.
> 
> ...


I agree. I was an abuse victim. (Believe it or not men are abused too). I had my ex on a pedestal. I had come to internalize everything she had said. I had been conditioned. It has only been in the past 18-24 months that I have been able to recognize just how bad I had gotten and how far out of my own control I had allowed my life to drift.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why the #1 tool of an abuser is isolation. So you can't listen to the other people telling you to GET OUT!


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