# Possibly CN wife - unrealistic expectations?



## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

My wife of 20 yrs is really selfish, and some here have maintained she is Covert Narcissist, which she may well be. She doesn't fit all the criteria, but the case can definitely be made. 

The main problem in our marriage is she puts me last. Last after the kids, getting botox or a facial and after the dogs. I'm the breadwinner, fit and a the decision maker in the family. She stayed home for a number of years, but now is doing well professionally. 

(Mapping doesn't work on her btw - immune to it).

The crux of our problem in this marriage is I want more intimacy and have since very early in the marriage. A common statement by her is, "I'm just not wired to be affectionate" joking she says in front of friends, "I have no soul". "Your never going to be happy with me, it's just never enough". Well, not making anytime for "us" but moving heaven and earth to make your botox appointment speaks volumes.

I have a very high SD and we have sex usually every other day. She is never exuberant about it and I make sure she comes first every time. She always argues, "We have sex alot - be happy with that" and I cannot get it across to her that it isn't just quantity or even just sex. I love oral, love making her feel good - but the favors are never returned, which is frustrating. It's as if she expects this and then after she comes it's like "OK, get yours now". 

Outside of the bedroom there is no affection, hand holding...nada. 

Instead of spatting over her lack of emotion/affection, I've tried communicating what my expectations are and asked if she can work on them. She maintains that her mom and dad's relationship was the same and she is just "that way - and you are never going to be happy". 

Any tips to get through to her? Recently she has even said, "Look - I'm 50yrs old, my body is going though changes and you just aren't going to be satisfied with me sexually".

I've even suggested to her that maybe she isn't in love with me and if so that is fine - we will go separate ways - but we need to be happy: together or not.

We stopped going to MC b/c she didn't do her homework or assignments and just showed up.

(I'm not going into the affair I had b/c she was this way before and after. She begged me to come back to work on things and swore things would be better. I know what I did was wrong, but the MC and her father read her the Riot Act b/c of her treatment of me before I stepped out.)

We have a S19 and a D10. I didn't want a second child b/c I wasn't happy and she literally badgered me (cried daily, cussed me out and arranged getaway weekends to have that 2nd child). So, I would be lying if I wasn't staying in this for my daughter whom I love to pieces. 

Is there a chance to have the intimacy with her? Is this an exercise in futility?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

If I was a woman and my husband cheated on me I would not want to have sex with him either. 

You do a lot of blame shifting and finger pointing at your wife. She may well be a narcissist. Are you a sex addict?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

If you are that miserable and have been for years, why are you still married to her?

She asked you to come back and yet you pay lip service to reconciliation. You are not doing the heavy work and you say she isn't working on the marriage either. So why do you expect for things to get better when you helped get them in the hole you are in right now?

I know you say it's because of the kids. Well, you didn't think about them when you had the affair. You will not think about them when you cheat again. How are you going to prevent yourself from seeking others outside the marriage?


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

I don't think you have the information to accuse me of not trying and paying "lip service" about reconciliation. I am and have been working on making things better or I wouldn't have come back 

And I haven't nor will I stray again. I made one mistake and learned from it. 

You sound scorned- don't take it out on me. I came here for help, not for you to make flippant and accusatory comments. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Good lord man! For twenty years your wife has told you she is not wired to love you the way you want to be loved. 

Your unhappiness is because you haven't listened to her.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Bibi...

Do not ever "like" one of my posts again. 

Ever. I don't want my posts being liked by you.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

jarhed said:


> I don't think you have the information to accuse me of not trying and paying "lip service" about reconciliation. I am and have been working on making things better or I wouldn't have come back
> 
> And I haven't nor will I stray again. I made one mistake and learned from it.
> 
> ...


What I'm saying is that you cannot just cheat and then think that because your wife is low drive or narcissist that she was not devastated by what you did. That is lacking compassion. 

You want to gloss over your affair and tell us not to take it into consideration when trying to assess the crux of your problems with your wife. 

Well that is not going to happen.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Good lord man! For twenty years your wife has told you she is not wired to love you the way you want to be loved.
> 
> Your unhappiness is because you haven't listened to her.


Really? So I suppose every couple who has one partner claim they just don't want to love in a particular way is hopeless? There is no way this is just lip service to difuse any discussions? I don't think this is sound advice at all. Wy wife claimed similar things for 20+ years.

There could be a myriad of reasons. How in shape are you (especially compared ot her)? Do you provide sufficient alpha and beta? You say she doesn't hold hands - do you grab her hand? What's her aversion to giving oral - has she ever mentioned what the hangup is? How long ago was the affair?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

jarhed said:


> I don't think you have the information to accuse me of not trying and paying "lip service" about reconciliation. I am and have been working on making things better or I wouldn't have come back
> 
> *And I haven't nor will I stray again. I made one mistake and learned from it. *
> 
> ...



Well, that is why I asked how you were going to fix not straying again. You being so angry doesn't help you. If you want to chop my head off because of my comment, I hate to think what it is like living with you on a daily basis. 

Have you tried IC?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Bibi...
> 
> Do not ever "like" one of my posts again.
> 
> Ever. I don't want my posts being liked by you.


Ouch, ok.

I'll try not to, but to be honest, I'm not checking who writes the responses I like. I simply agree and find the response helpful in some way.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Can you show me examples & which criteria matches your wife personality please. 
So far I've only seen one of the traits from your post, the I have "no soul" bit. 

But one of the bits "You're never going to be happy with me, it's just never enough"

She's tried to please you but is it "never enough" for you? 




Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> If I was a woman and my husband cheated on me I would not want to have sex with him either.
> 
> You do a lot of blame shifting and finger pointing at your wife. She may well be a narcissist. Are you a sex addict?


I had no plans on coming back, it was only after MUCH dialogue and me owning my part and her owning her's that I agreed. I asked her repeatedly if she could get past it and she said she could and IMO she has. 

I didn't say she didn't want to sleep with me, we are just missing that intimacy that we missed prior to and after the affair. The only time we had it was when we were dating and when she was trying to get me to move back home. It was WONDERFUL then! 

I've been to 3 counselors over the years and never was I told I was a sex addict in fact the most religious shrink that my wife chose told her my expectations on sex were not outlandish. (I think she was looking for some support there - she didn't care for his stance on that).


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Bibi1031 said:


> Well, that is why I asked how you were going to fix not straying again. You being so angry doesn't help you. If you want to chop my head off because of my comment, I hate to think what it is like living with you on a daily basis.
> 
> Have you tried IC?


BIBI - I simply responded in like to your comment. If you dish it out, you better be able to take it. "Chopping your head off" is a bit dramatic.

And your last statement is even more childish. I welcome your input if it is genuine, but if you're going to just be sarcastic, then don't bother.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

jarhed said:


> BIBI - I simply responded in like to your comment. If you dish it out, you better be able to take it. "Chopping your head off" is a bit dramatic.
> 
> And your last statement is even more childish. I welcome your input if it is genuine, but if you're going to just be sarcastic, then don't bother.





Anon Pink said:


> Good lord man! For twenty years your wife has told you she is not wired to love you the way you want to be loved.
> 
> Your unhappiness is because you haven't listened to her.


You may be right and I'm just too stubborn to give up hope. I like to think people can change or alter they way they love.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Just to clarify, you are looking for more affection / emotional connection, not sex, in your relationship, right? 

You mentioned your W was like this before your A. How long ago did the affection stop? Was she always like this? If so, what makes you think it would change after 20+ years? If not, what triggered the change? 

If she was always like this, I would be curious to know, was she emotionally abused as a child? Were here parents addicts? (alcohol or otherwise?)

I know you don't want to bring up the A, but I would be willing to wager that it is a major additional hurdle for you. 

Your W is telling you how she feels. You should listen to her. Listen closely.


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## bankshot1993 (Feb 10, 2014)

Jarhead, I think I'm hearing what your saying and if I'm hearing you right I can relate. Its a feeling I've been having for a while.

Are you saying that the amount of sex isn't the issue. The real issue is the fact that during the sex and even in normal day to day interactions you're not feeling the emotional intimacy that makes you feel more connected? Is the issue that you are feeling that sex is mechanical and without any passion and more like duty sex and public displays of affection are rebuffed/rejected? As a result you are feeling the emotional connection that comes out of these bonding moments?


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

You are having sex every other day, you should be happy with that. Do you kiss her and hold her hand out of the bedroom? If she wasn't in love with you she wouldn't have stayed with you after you had your affair and she wouldn't be having sex with you so often. She is going though/will go through menopause so be prepared for your active sex life not to be so active and you have to accept that. It's not all about you. It does sound like you are never going to be happy with her because she is trying to satisfy you sexually and you still aren't happy. Be grateful you have your daughter and don't get resentful that she "forced" you to have a second child, that would really hurt your daughter if she knew that's how you felt.


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## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)

You're intimate with your W every other day still....and that's a problem?!?

About 95% of the married men in this world would envy that, myself included.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jarhed said:


> You may be right and I'm just too stubborn to give up hope. I like to think people can change or alter they way they love.


Of course people can change. But only if they want to. Your wife doesn't want to. This leaves you with only two choices.

1. Accept her as she is and find happiness with or without her.
2. Accept you're unhappiness.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Capster said:


> Really? So I suppose every couple who has one partner claim they just don't want to love in a particular way is hopeless? There is no way this is just lip service to difuse any discussions? I don't think this is sound advice at all. Wy wife claimed similar things for 20+ years.



Yes, really. 

Every couple? That wasn't what I said. 

Lip service to diffuse discussion on the part of the wife? OP knows his wife better than anyone, if he felt it was just lip service why would he be posting here?

Are you saying your wife claimed for 20 + years she would not and could not be affectionate or loving toward you and then she changed and you are now happy and content? How wonderful for you. Perhaps you should post your secret to getting a person to change when they don't want to.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

bankshot1993 said:


> Jarhead, I think I'm hearing what your saying and if I'm hearing you right I can relate. Its a feeling I've been having for a while.
> 
> Are you saying that the amount of sex isn't the issue. The real issue is the fact that during the sex and even in normal day to day interactions you're not feeling the emotional intimacy that makes you feel more connected? Is the issue that you are feeling that sex is mechanical and without any passion and more like duty sex and public displays of affection are rebuffed/rejected? As a result you are feeling the emotional connection that comes out of these bonding moments?


DING DING DING! Yes - and additionally I want my kids to see two loving happy parents, not one that tries to give his wife a kiss in the kitchen and get dodged. My worry is my kids will not know what love is supposed to be like. She is b1tchy to me all the time.

CONCERN: Since my D was 6yrs old, I would try and give her hugs or a kiss on the top of her head and she started saying, "Stop, I don't like to be touched". Is she modeling behavior??


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

KJ_Simmons said:


> You're intimate with your W every other day still....and that's a problem?!?
> 
> About 95% of the married men in this world would envy that, myself included.


We do have sex every other day and I know that many would relish that. I may have set the bar high - but I know what it is like to be truly loved and that is what I want. Why should i settle? Life is too short.

You sound like my wife, "You get sex alot be happy". Well what about a spouse that is nice to me, that wants my kisses and hugs and wants to do things with me. Soon this nest will be empty and I'll be here with a wife that isn't even nice to me, much less affectionate. Oh, but I'll be getting my rocks off every couple days, so just live with it?


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Kivlor said:


> Just to clarify, you are looking for more affection / emotional connection, not sex, in your relationship, right? Y E S
> 
> You mentioned your W was like this before your A. How long ago did the affection stop? Was she always like this? If so, what makes you think it would change after 20+ years? If not, what triggered the change? We got pregnant immediately after getting married. I took a job as a Pharma Rep and was out of town a lot. She says this made her bitter that I wasn't home (but I too was unhappy with travel and it lasted 14 months and I resigned after finding something local)
> 
> ...


 I constantly ask her what she is thinking - pulling teeth. My mom was a psychologist, so I probably try to communicate to the point of nausea!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jarhed said:


> CONCERN: Since my D was 6yrs old, I would try and give her hugs or a kiss on the top of her head and she started saying, "Stop, I don't like to be touched". Is she modeling behavior??


Possibly, but more info would be needed. Generally speaking, kids don't want to hugged or kissed when they are busy doing something else but welcome both when they are upset and accept both upon greeting or leave taking.

Ask your daughter if she feels comforted when she's upset if you hug or hold her, how she would know how much you love her if you can't hug her?

If her mother doesn't show affection at all ever, yes, she's teaching your daughter to be cold and emotionally distant from others.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

jarhed said:


> I constantly ask her what she is thinking - pulling teeth. My mom was a psychologist, so I probably try to communicate to the point of nausea!


So her dad was never around, and her mom was looney tunes?

Are you sure that even though she was "babied" compared to the other siblings, she wasn't emotionally neglected compared to normal standards?

Often, kids of neglectful / abusive parents can display these kinds of personality traits. I don't know your W, so I am just guessing here, but I'd like to take a shot at something, and see if it makes sense to you, or if it doesn't sound like the case at all. You're much more aware of her life.

She grew up with a dad who left her with her crazy mom. She had an unstable upbringing, and the only paternal figure was never home. She got with you and found a stable paternal figure that filled a decades old void. Then you took a job that basically had you abandon her--in her eyes--just like her father. 

Now, like her father, you've destroyed all stability in her life. Yes, you quit that job years ago, but she doesn't trust you to not do it again. She is withholding because she doesn't want to become attached, and then have the thing she is attached to ripped from her life on a whim once again, throwing her life into instability again.

Does this sound plausible, or am I way off base here?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

jarhed said:


> *And your last statement is even more childish.* I welcome your input if it is genuine, but if you're going to just be sarcastic, then don't bother.


I am genuine and if you cheated and crossed that boundary once, you could very well do it again. I read your other posts so I see what you are doing to work that out and move on. Based on your posts, that is not an issue for either of you right now, or so you think because your wife may be burying that in deep and it may be coming out sideways. Who knows, time will tell. Communication is a big problem here though.

The reason I stated IC is that you said MC was not working. You could benefit from IC even if your wife refuses to go to either.

You say you have gone to 3 counselors before, but were any of them IC for just you?


*Oh, but I'll be getting my rocks off every couple days, so just live with it?*

Of course not! You need to have your needs met too. That is where I think you guys need help. She doesn't understand what it is exactly that you need because her filters don't see what you see or want. A good counselor can guide you in the right direction to get the communication flowing and eventually things will get better between you and your wife. 

You don't need to get upset over this , but I have a big mouth so I will state it anyway: minimizing my comment that I was too dramatic is very telling to me and based on my personal experience.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Kivlor said:


> So her dad was never around, and her mom was looney tunes?
> 
> Are you sure that even though she was "babied" compared to the other siblings, she wasn't emotionally neglected compared to normal standards?
> 
> ...


I'd say that is plausible. The job I took was a couple years into our marriage and was 17 years ago. So, do you think that is still a valid fear? If so, what do you suggest I can do to aleviate / address this fear?


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Bibi1031 said:


> I am genuine and if you cheated and crossed that boundary once, you could very well do it again. I read your other posts so I see what you are doing to work that out and move on. Based on your posts, that is not an issue for either of you right now, or so you think because your wife may be burying that in deep and it may be coming out sideways. Who knows, time will tell. Communication is a big problem here though.
> 
> The reason I stated IC is that you said MC was not working. You could benefit from IC even if your wife refuses to go to either.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with being vocal, I just think more is accomplished with non sarcasm and less accusatory. Big mouth is fine with me, I suffer from that as well....


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

KJ_Simmons said:


> You're intimate with your W every other day still....and that's a problem?!?
> 
> About 95% of the married men in this world would envy that, myself included.


Sex does not always equal intimacy. Sex with a compliant, disinterested spouse is awful. Worse than no sex at all.

I see it all the time on here from both men and women. "Hey, at least she's making her vagina available! Just ignore the grimace, impatient sighs and clock-watching and be grateful!"

Nuts to that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Right on Fozzy.

And BTW - for clarification. When she is b1tchy and doesn't want to do anything with me, hang out, etc, I head to my "happy place". I head to Mt Bike or Kayak with my buds and then for beers. I don't sit around and mope. 

- don't know if this is relevant. But I have some great friends - peeps in my running group, fishing buds or guys that mountain bike, etc. She has very few friendships - mainly her college roommate who lives 5 states away and a girl that she runs with. Then we have a few couples that we are close with that we go on vacations, etc.


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## sscygni (Apr 13, 2016)

KJ_Simmons said:


> You're intimate with your W every other day still....and that's a problem?!?
> 
> About 95% of the married men in this world would envy that, myself included.


Its been said already, but wow is that a simplistic way to look at things. Sex is very important to me, and every other day would be a nice improvement over my current state, but without all of the other forms of intimacy, in and out of the bedroom, its really no better than a date with your right hand.


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## tnhusband1966 (Sep 30, 2015)

OP - sounds like our spouses are similar - read my post from October for the details.

Like me you are looking for more love and affection other than just what you receive from sex. To me this seems so unmanly but yet it is the one thing in my life I crave that I just cannot seem to get.

After many years of marriage, of talks, of reading and research I've come to the conclusion that this is just how she is. Nothing I can do can change her. 

Our sex life will probably always be a rollercoaster and during the highs I do feel more connected to her - I love those times but always know it won't last. She's never going to sext me, she's never going to flirt with me or try to build up the sexual tension. No cuddling, hand-holding or even kissing.

I think I love her more than she loves me - and that's just something I have to accept and live with. 

Can you do the same? I know why you had an affair - it's wasn't for the sex was it? It was because she made you feel wanted, desired etc - don't you agree? I know it's a touchy subject but have you ever explained that to your wife?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

jarhed said:


> I'd say that is plausible. The job I took was a couple years into our marriage and was 17 years ago. So, do you think that is still a valid fear? If so, what do you suggest I can do to aleviate / address this fear?


Is it a valid fear? Probably not, it's likely irrational. But people who grew up in homes like that aren't known for rationality. And it may not even be that she's consciously holding this against you. It could be subconsciously. 

I'm not sure of how to really fix something like that, other than through therapy. She may need a TON of counseling. But that's assuming that what I proposed is remotely correct. It's possible I'm projecting a bit. I see a lot of myself, and other folks I know who've been through neglectful/abusive childhoods in your description of your W.

It may not be curable, even with IC. She may not be willing to go to counseling. And I'm really not sure of the right method to sell her on the idea of it. 

Has she ever really opened up about her childhood? Was it a positive experience? Does she clam up about it? Is your W the kind of person who puts on a happy face and just will just "grin and bear it" regardless of the situation?


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Kivlor said:


> Is it a valid fear? Probably not, it's likely irrational. But people who grew up in homes like that aren't known for rationality. And it may not even be that she's consciously holding this against you. It could be subconsciously.
> 
> I'm not sure of how to really fix something like that, other than through therapy. She may need a TON of counseling. But that's assuming that what I proposed is remotely correct. It's possible I'm projecting a bit. I see a lot of myself, and other folks I know who've been through neglectful/abusive childhoods in your description of your W.
> 
> ...


From what she says her childhood was very pleasant. She refers to a lot of nice memories. From what I decipher when her dad was away her home was quiet and her mom was not engaged- not abusive, but rather just making sure she was cared for, but not super nurturing.

I think there is a fine line between "projecting" and actually seeing or identifying with someone based on similar experiences - so I do value your input!

On a positive note, W has been trying to be more affectionate the last few days. I know it is hard for her, so I am really trying to nurture it.


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