# Understanding the MALE EGO... what is your perspective ?



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I thought this may be an interesting thread topic.... 

They say we all have an EGO.. *but men just have more of one*.. (somehow I can't see many women on TAM arguing this generalization).... I bet men can outright admit this is true even...I thought this a decent explaining:

** *How to Deal With a Man's Ego - you tube 

It appears this has been socially constructed ....explained here: 
** * How to Understand the Male Ego  ...







....

Male ego is driven by recognition, attention, and action...can I also say AMBITION...which women greatly admire...some may even feel like this ....









As with everything...there is a healthy balance in all things >> When Healthy Ambition Morphs Into a Big Ego .

But is ALL male ego bad ?? Having spent some time reading articles on this topic... which ranged from damning, slamming, any show of it & the man is deemed "infantile"...take this one for example > Fragile As F*ck: Why The Male Ego Is Basically A 14-Year-Old Girl ... obviously this blogger & her guy (hopefully an ex!) has some serious issues going on (passive aggressiveness/ blame shifting/ no self awareness )- how can anything good come out of that ! 

While other articles are on a deeper level (not nearly as dysfunctional)... exploring the inner workings of the male psyche, what motivates men, how they love, view intimacy, also what shuts them down, when they feel disrespected... 



Stroking the ego could also be looked at as simply "*validating our spouses*", showing "*Words of affirmation*" (a love language) or "*Admiration*" (one of the 10 emotional needs discussed in "His Needs/ Her Needs".. 

I guess it's the term "Stroking a man's ego" that is vilified.. where those others are accepted, even encouraged. 

This article compares it to Admiration...

*** Is It Wrong To Stroke The Male Ego? 

A segment of women are "repelled by this idea of showing effusive admiration for a guy. For them it smacks too much of worshipping or being submissive. It all sounds like another excuse to stroke the precious male ego instead of having a relationship of equals."...She will ask "Does a strong, confident man really need this kind of ego stroking?” ...

Then speaks how a man "wants to feel as though, even though you had options, there was something so special about him you admired that put him above everyone else. Guys need to feel like something about who they are (and not just what they do) impresses you in a way that no other guy can. "

I'm sure many will disagree with the word "NEED" in that article, it was used a lot.. even my husband would, we've had a few conversations on this.. But he sure does appreciate it ..it's brought us closer together...he had me so confused this am talking about this though...he went on how he sees too much MALE EGO at work , those guys don't need any STROKING, they stroke themselves.. like all day...I guess this is how many women feel.. I don't know. 

Still I enjoyed these articles ...some food for thought if your man is not his own Stroker that is: 

** *Women's power to hurt the male ego - CNN.com







... ending of this article :



> I believe that a man will feel even more motivated to please a woman he loves if he knows that, in general, she already thinks the world of him. Once a woman tells a man how responsible and caring he is, he'll usually do all he can to live up to that image. Just to make her proud, he'll rise up and move mountains.


** *Understanding the Male Ego...(a Christian marriage perspective)..


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I think it's valuable to ground ourselves in what we mean by ego.

This is what I mean by ego:
a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
"a boost to my ego"
synonyms:	self-esteem, self-importance, self-worth, self-respect, self-image, self-confidence
"the defeat was a bruise to his ego"
PSYCHOANALYSIS
the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and the unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity.
PHILOSOPHY
(in metaphysics) a conscious thinking subject.

Is that what you mean?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Not all men have out-sized egos. Those that do are definitely high maintenance. I wonder if their ego is due to low self-esteem. 

Now, the men in MLC going after 20 year olds are either high ego or in complete denial of reality. Ugly picture, either way.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I always love when it's thrown around the fragile male ego ...always gives me a chuckle. Genders still are what they are and we both have different needs with some allowance for exceptions.

Men want to be respected and admired. If they want too much they are said to have a frail ego

Women want to desired and wanted. If they want to much they are said to be a princess.

I have a NEED to be respected especially at home.... Probably comes from years of not getting any but no matter the reason I would certainly call it a need for me. What I don't need is a constant stroke to feel ok about myself. I know who I am what I offer. Guess my point would be too much of anything can be a bad thing


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## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

Truth be told, most men are very insecure. 1) how much money they make 2) their penis size 

This is not a joke
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

marduk said:


> I think it's valuable to ground ourselves in what we mean by ego.
> 
> *This is what I mean by ego:*
> 
> ...


Honesty I am not sure what I mean Marduk !!

*Ego* is so often looked upon as ugly and worthless by so many...but look at the definition given >> a person's sense of self esteem, self worth, self-respect ... if a man didn't have any ego, he'd sure as heck never be attractive to a woman... .so to say Ego is all bad is not working for me... 

I'm still trying to figure it out...

According to Freud


> The ego is part of personality that mediates the demands of the id, the superego and reality. The ego prevents us from acting on our basic urges (created by the id), but also works to achieve a balance with our moral and idealistic standards (created by the superego). While the ego operates in both the preconscious and conscious, its strong ties to the id means that it also operates in the unconscious.
> 
> The ego operates based on the reality principle, which works to satisfy the id's desires in a manner that is realistic and socially appropriate. For example, if a person cuts you off in traffic, the ego prevents you from chasing down the car and physically attacking the offending driver. The ego allows us to see that this response would be socially unacceptable, but it also allows us to know that there are other more appropriate means of venting our frustration.












Another ..


> The ego is our self-image, not our true self. It is characterized by labels, masks, images, and judgments. The true self is the field of possibilities, creativity, intentions, and power. We can go beyond the ego through self awareness - awareness of our thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and speech. Thus we begin to slowly move beyond the ego to the true self. - Deepak Chopra












Urban dictionary definition


> *EGO* : The part of you that defines itself as a personality, separates itself from the outside world, and considers itself (read: you) a separate entity from the rest of nature and the cosmos. Perhaps necessary for survival in some evolutionary bygone, in modern times it leads only to (albeit often disguised) misanthropic beliefs and delusion.
> 
> In short, "I."
> 
> Ego is responsible for hate, fear, and delusion





> Something that most people who add this word to Urban Dictionary, get wrong.
> 
> Ego roughly literally translates as the conscious mind or consciousness of your own identity.
> 
> Ego is something that people too often mistaken as a bad thing. If what the majority says is true, then I guess you can say that you're conscious mind or consciousness of your own identity is considered a terrible thing to have.


Another :


> Your ego is your conscious mind, the part of your identity that you consider your "self." If you say someone has "a big ego," then you are saying he is too full of himself.
> 
> Poor ego, it gets such a bad rap, being so often confused with "megalomania" and "vanity" and all kinds of other nasty things, but strictly speaking it is only a psychological term popularized by Freud meaning the conscious (as opposed to the unconscious) mind, or the awareness of one's own identity and existence. Nothing wrong in that, is there?


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

The male ego is used to explain many personality traits in men that are easily explained by just looking at people as....people. I personally think that there is less difference between men and women then researchers would like us to think. I have no idea how it came about to explain a man's feelings being hurt by saying his ego is hurt or someone stomped his ego instead of saying someone really did a number on his feelings.....Why is it ok to say she got her feelings hurt but to say that about a man seems to take away his man card in some way?

I work in a place where 99% of our customers are men. I'll tell you a little secret....men gossip about things too, men feel hurt about things too.....men and women are just not that different from my perspective. I think calling a man's feelings his ego is somehow elevating his feelings to be more important and fragile than a woman's feelings. 

Just for the record I think women just want to be respected and admired too. I think men want to be desired and wanted too.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
Big difference between genuine admiration / recognition and feeding a hungry ego. 

Truly secure folks - satisfy most of their ego needs themselves. They KNOW when they've done well. While they find external validation pleasant, they don't NEED much of it. 

This is how S2 is. He's very good at his job, when he asks his colleagues to do something - they do it - because they respect him. A lot of that respect comes from competence, but the rest is based on his priorities. S2 is focused on getting the job done right. Not on managing the optics, or worse managing his own optics. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I thought this may be an interesting thread topic....
> 
> They say we all have an EGO.. *but men just have more of one*.. (somehow I can't see many women on TAM arguing this generalization).... I bet men can outright admit this is true even...I thought this a decent explaining:
> 
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Honesty I am not sure what I mean Marduk !!
> 
> *Ego* is so often looked upon as ugly and worthless by so many...but look at the definition given >> a person's sense of self esteem, self worth, self-respect ... if a man didn't have any ego, he'd sure as heck never be attractive to a woman... .so to say Ego is all bad is not working for me...
> 
> ...


My point is that ego carries a negative connotation when it really shouldn't.

I have a very strong ego-structure and very high self esteem. This helps me build resilience. 

However, when some people read or write ego they may mean something like "fragile false arrogance."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Women are generally very patronizing and infantilizing of men. That's at the root of any 'men have fragile egos' discussion. It's not true or accurate but it creates a convenient myth you can exploit to manipulate him. What's closer to the truth is that women are trained from an early age to be manipulative emotional vampires.

There, how does that feel?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Just fine. Of course, women wouldn't be patronizing and infantilizing of men if men could find their own pacifiers.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)




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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> Just fine. Of course, women wouldn't be patronizing and infantilizing of men if men could find their own pacifiers.


That's pretty funny. But if we do you scream we're shutting you out.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Actually, we'd be screaming "Thank the Lord, he finally opened his eyes".


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Blondilocks said:


> Just fine. Of course, women wouldn't be patronizing and infantilizing of men if men could find their own pacifiers.


Not cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Women are generally very patronizing and infantilizing of men. That's at the root of any 'men have fragile egos' discussion. It's not true or accurate but it creates a convenient myth you can exploit to manipulate him. What's closer to the truth is that women are trained from an early age to be manipulative emotional vampires.
> 
> There, how does that feel?


Also not cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

marduk said:


> Not cool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And, who are you to spoil our fun?>


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Blondilocks said:


> Not all men have out-sized egos. Those that do are definitely high maintenance. *I wonder if their ego is due to low self-esteem. *
> 
> Now, the men in MLC going after 20 year olds are either high ego or in complete denial of reality. Ugly picture, either way.


I really don't understand the whole low self esteem thing or if it always shows in the same ways.. needing an ego fed ? Some may just be depressed & withdraw... 

I've always found it odd when someone POPULAR , has many friends....is found to have low self esteem.. but it happens I guess...these things trip me up... 

Let me use my husband as an example... 

Going back in time...he was not popular in school, pretty much hung with a more nerdy crowd, he's quiet but pleasant always, he had glasses, sucked at sports, girls didn't notice him, he never tried to be something he wasn't to impress anyone....he was also bullied some in early high school.. this sounds like a guy who should have lower self esteem going on.. right....some BIG hits to the social hierarchy or what makes a dude feel like* a MAN*.... 

Today...all these years later, he's still on the passive side, not one to purposely rock the boat, couldn't brag to save his own life.. he's always been very humble...and self aware...does he have confidence in himself.. he does when he knows he is good at something!! he genuinely likes himself.....he walks what he talks... ....he's honest if he knows he'd not measure up...lets offenses slide off (but I could hurt him -he is a more sensitive man -I wouldn't change it )...

It's valuable to him to treat others with respect to get along.. do what he can do on his end.. to be at peace with whomever... 

He comes off as a Good Guy, more Beta personality (not meaning in a bad way)..... the few times he has caused a ruckus at work, so rare -the guys had to tell me all about it.. so he's capable of bringing it -letting off some steam to show he won't be pushed around.. Good for him... It's just that he hates to get THIS WAY....

He accepts himself as he is.. he doesn't care that his work clothes are always the grimest there, our cars are the oldest in the lot.. he's still happy.. I would say he has virtually zero EGO in the bad sense. Whatever he has...it appears to be healthy for his quieter temperament -in relation to how he treats others...always. 

I've never experienced Male entitlement or chauvinist behavior in the smallest way... nor does he NEED ME to stroke his ego... but as I said in my opening post...it's something I enjoy doing... I guess because it doesn't go to his head.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I really don't understand the whole low self esteem thing or if it always shows in the same ways.. needing an ego fed ? Some may just be depressed & withdraw...
> 
> I've always found it odd when someone POPULAR , has many friends....is found to have low self esteem.. but it happens I guess...these things trip me up...


Self-esteem comes from within, at least IMHO, and so isn't necessarily connected to how popular or not you are. If all of your validation comes from other people, and you are reliant on that validation for feeling good about yourself, you are in a very precarious position indeed.

And a person with very good self-esteem won't necessarily be popular, as they may hold to values or principles that aren't popular, they are less likely to be afraid to rock the boat, they aren't primarily concerned with what others think of them -- and will not immediately change just because someone doesn't like what they are saying, doing, wearing, whatever.

My experience with the so-called "fragile male ego" is with guys who have to be right, who cannot be disagreed with without them becoming angry, patronizing, sulky or defensive, who are quick to be upset if someone looks at them askance, or who are poor losers, or who are putting other people down that they feel threatened by (which is most everyone), or who demand "respect" without having done anything to earn it, or insist on their "authority" even though they have none. 

IOW, I agree with Blondilocks that it is very much driven by poor self-esteem. And I think there are just as many women out there with fragile egos, also driven by poor self-esteem.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Healthy male ego: Both my wife and I have had a number of sexual partners in our past, but what we have is special including our awesome sex life.

Unhealthy male ego needing stroking: Both my wife and I have had a number of sexual partners in our past, and I lie awake at night agonizing if she liked their penises better than mine and if I was second, third or fourth choice despite what we have together and despite our awesome sex life.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

"What women want is roasted ice" - Arab proverb


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

Runs like Dog said:


> What's closer to the truth is that women are trained from an early age to be manipulative emotional vampires.


I must have missed that class.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Dude007 said:


> Truth be told, most men are very insecure. 1) how much money they make 2) their penis size
> 
> This is not a joke


 Thank you for your honesty Dude007.... I think the majority compare Financial Success and Lover status above all....

*1*. Can I provide for her/ the kids, keep them happy - plus your peers look up to you many times.
*2*. Can I curl her toes , make her scream in bed...only shouting my name...

Those are the 2 big ones..


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> "What women want is roasted ice" - Arab proverb


Yep, but only if it has been poured over coffee grounds.

Runs, please refresh my memory: are you the guy who hasn't had any lovin' for, oh, like 50 years?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Runs like Dog said:


> "What women want is roasted ice" - Arab proverb


Speaking of what women want... I caught this on you tube not long ago.. .comedy skit.. but darn it's SO TRUE!!! 

What Women Want - Brian Scott McFadden - Video 



> WHAT WOMEN WANT
> 
> “Women want a man who’s ambitious, an achiever, whose successful both professionally and financially…who’s not materialistic.
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to side with men on this one.. we're a bit hard to please.. I could go through this list & knock off some of those things.. but many of them.. Yep.. it's true !


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Speaking of what women want... I caught this on you tube not long ago.. .comedy skit.. but darn it's SO TRUE!!!
> 
> What Women Want - Brian Scott McFadden - Video
> 
> ...


..it's true. Women are really picky when it comes to men. I'm very hard on my husband and have been working on being less so. As for my dog all I want her to do is NOT pee on the carpet and I'm thrilled.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

It's funny how not picky my wife became when I started living my life very intentionally, and stopped trying to chase every little thing around that she wanted me to chase.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Heatherknows said:


> ..it's true. Women are really picky when it comes to men. I'm very hard on my husband and have been working on being less so. As for my dog all I want her to do is NOT pee on the carpet and I'm thrilled.


That's because you don't have the same expectations for your dog as you do for your husband. At least, I hope not.

In any event, concentrate on training the dog and less on training your husband.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Heatherknows said:


> ..it's true. Women are really picky when it comes to men. I'm very hard on my husband and have been working on being less so. As for my dog all I want her to do is NOT pee on the carpet and I'm thrilled.


My husband says it's good I am hard on him. He says if women are not demanding of men, men won't do anything.


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> That's because you don't have the same expectations for your dog as you do for your husband. At least, I hope not.
> 
> In any event, concentrate on training the dog and less on training your husband.


That's exactly what I'm doing!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't think I have an EGO or Mrs.CuddleBug would of said something by now.....:grin2:

Am I some 9 inch long schlong hung guy? Nope. Am I tiny? Nope. I'm about 6 inches long and Mrs.CuddleBug has never complained or brought it up. Get it? :grin2:

I bought a hollow male strap on with harness to surprise her and spice it up. This is for Mrs.CuddleBug because she can ride me as long as she wants and I never go limp and no mess and needing toilet paper and her running to the bathroom. About 10 inches long but actual insertable length for Mrs.CuddleBug would be 7.75 to 8 inches long. Again, this is for her because I won't have an orgasm, but she will......

I used to hardcore weight train but now that I'm getting older, not so much, lost 10+ lbs, leaner but I honestly don't care. I don't flex or parade for Mrs.CuddleBug either. I took care of myself for my health and longevity.

Mrs.CuddleBug knows I'm no maid and servant for her. I help her if its obvious she could use some help but otherwise, if she can do something, I leave it to her. I don't spoil and pamper her. She does the same for me.

Many women want a man, have their cake and eat it too.....not good.

I know women who dress very sexy and get their men to do everything for them. Get the mail, take out the dog, install tv system, take out the garbage, etc, etc, etc, and all for what? Because they manipulate their men with their sexy bodies and use sex to control them. Mrs.CuddleBug knows that doesn't work on me and when I see a hot woman on tv or out and about, I tell Mrs.CuddleBug, there's another piece of a$$ and if it wasn't for her hot body, she is nothing. Mrs.CuddleBug agrees and smiles.

I treat ladies the way they treat me. If they're c$unts, I treat them like c$unts. If they're genuinely nice, I treat them very nicely.

I am going white so I have Mrs.CuddleBug cut my hair very short. I also like the fact I get no bed head and I don't need hairspray and gels or shampoo, all because my hair is very short, basically shaved head and Mrs.CuddleBug likes shaving my head.


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

CuddleBug said:


> I tell Mrs.CuddleBug, there's another piece of a$$ and if it wasn't for her hot body, she is nothing. Mrs.CuddleBug agrees and smiles.


Honestly that is a gross way of looking at women. I've dressed sexy and have been called lots of names. Just because I dress sexy or act sexy doesn't mean I'm just a piece of a$$. But I'm at a point in my life right now where I'm starting not to care what others think. It's too exhausting.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I agree but that's my life experiences so far and Mrs.CuddleBug has worked with many ladies that are hotties and useless. Basically they are a princess and have their sexy body.

Not all women are like this just like not all men are like this but in my life experience so far, seems to be the case.

Mrs.CuddleBug agrees with me and doesn't get angry.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Just fine. Of course, women wouldn't be patronizing and infantilizing of men if men could find their own pacifiers.


My wife keeps my pacifier on her person at all times.

Both of them, actually.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sure said:


> The male ego is used to explain many personality traits in men that are easily explained by just looking at people as....people. I personally think that there is less difference between men and women then researchers would like us to think. I have no idea how it came about to explain a man's feelings being hurt by saying his ego is hurt or someone stomped his ego instead of saying someone really did a number on his feelings.....*Why is it ok to say she got her feelings hurt but to say that about a man seems to take away his man card in some way?*


 I think I understand it..* it messes with the way they see themselves....which can strike to their core* - certain areas where they highly pride themselves (and this is not such a bad thing)...

Now I come from a more Traditional mindset here.. for a man to "Protect & Provide" for a woman, his family is HUGE.. he can't allow himself to break down.. he has to handle what life throws at him.. slay whatever dragon comes his/ our way.... this IS respecting himself and demonstrating what a MAN IS... you just don't fall apart.. or whine about life's unfairness, even if the wife is getting out of sorts (Yeah that might be me at times)..... 

EVEN IF YOU FEEL IT - you don't go there (this does no good anyway)....you have to pick yourself up.. others depend on you... 

If I belittled his contribution when he has stood strong, whining he doesn't make enough money ... why can't he be like so & so's husband.. when he is doing the best he can... this would slice to his core.. his EGO -how he sees himself... 

There are just some areas that will hit like a sledgehammer to A MAN.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Women are generally very patronizing and infantilizing of men. That's at the root of any 'men have fragile egos' discussion. It's not true or accurate but it creates a convenient myth you can exploit to manipulate him. What's closer to the truth is that women are trained from an early age to be manipulative emotional vampires.
> 
> There, how does that feel?


Rumor has it in my family that my mom's Hungarian mother was a descendent of the brother of Vlad "the impaler" Dracula. So does that make me a vampire?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> My wife keeps my pacifier on her person at all times.
> 
> Both of them, actually.


Touche Gus.

You're back in my good graces.

For now 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Rumor has it in my family that my mom's Hungarian mother was a descendent of the brother of Vlad "the impaler" Dracula. So does that make me a vampire?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No just a good Christian. He's the national hero of Romania.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Touche Gus.
> 
> You're back in my good graces.
> 
> For now


I'm sure that will be remedied in relatively short order.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> No just a good Christian. He's the national hero of Romania.


Only until the Jews of Russia got involved in the family. Now I'm taken by Jews :grin2:


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Only until the Jews of Russia got involved in the family. Now I'm taken by Jews :grin2:


I love you.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

always_alone said:


> *Self-esteem comes from within, at least IMHO, and so isn't necessarily connected to how popular or not you are. If all of your validation comes from other people, and you are reliant on that validation for feeling good about yourself, you are in a very precarious position indeed.
> 
> And a person with very good self-esteem won't necessarily be popular, as they may hold to values or principles that aren't popular, they are less likely to be afraid to rock the boat, they aren't primarily concerned with what others think of them -- and will not immediately change just because someone doesn't like what they are saying, doing, wearing, whatever.*


 I'm still not sure self esteem is so clear cut... not everyone who lacks it - is seeking to be boosted on a regular basis.. I do feel it helps when such people have "acceptance" , feel loved & have a circle of others there for them.. 

No one wants to admit they have low self esteem.. it's like a black mark upon us... I was talking to H last night about this... told him I wrote that post using him as an example, about his high school yrs... I asked him about his *self esteem*... he said he would say it was *low*.. yes.. to be honest.. I'd have to say mine was also .....because sure... we compared ourselves.. who doesn't do this?? As I explained.. what did he have going for him.. nothing really.. oh he came from a good home, loving family.. thankfully.. 

I came from a family who hardly bought me clothes or gave me lunch $$ , I had to walk a straight line or I would be grounded to my room a month at a time, I was never in any school activities, not allowed.. I could go on.. the point. I didn't have much going for me either (self esteem is born out of accomplishments many times)... .then the school I went to, many would say this.. they worshiped the Jocks & cheerleaders.. so I went to a Vocational school in 10th grade...this is where I met my husband.. 

We were cut from the same cloth.. we weren't brains, we weren't burn outs / partiers, we weren't jocks, we just hung with the nice people.... some may say more the outcasts .. I liked these people.. I am still friends with my high school girlfriends 30 yrs later...but we knew our Rank...

Always self aware.....Youth group helped .. something to belong too.. to find a place.. 

Both of us were NOT the type to fall for peer pressure though (basically we are both too stubborn & can't lie)...as this is often what people DO to fit in / to be accepted, wearing a mask....had I done those things, my mouth would eventually get me in trouble cause I would stick up for the outcast.. I don't like to see people left out.. and shunned.. not for stupid reasons anyway.. just cause they are not as ______ or _____ is bullsh** to me......

I judge people on how they treat other people ...not on external things like social status , popularity.. it's has to be deeper than that. 

I am absolutely sure I fulfilled something in my husband and he fulfilled something in me.. but this is not to say we were unhealthy either.. We weren't a mess ....and through our connection, I'd say our self esteem grew ..

I guess what I am trying to say is. not everyone with lower self esteem go looking for ego boosts at any cost.. my husband would never think like this.. he would stay in the background... but he's an introvert anyway!..

And me.. I always came alive around people I felt comfortable with...my boisterous self would come out... but If I felt I was looked down upon.. I would not want anything to do with such people.. Why put yourself in a Lion's den.. .. 

I found this self esteem test online.. it's only 10 questions...

Rosenberg Self Esteem Scale.. ..I found with each question.. myself saying "BUT".. I may have a good answer but if I compare myself to someone over there.. would I feel like I am on an equal plane as them... NO probably not.. so then I would have to remind myself that being Rich or having status is not the end all. 

When I started to ask my husband these questions -he did the same thing.. if we focus on comparing - we would all have low self esteem..

Our answers did come out with "normal" self esteem.. not too high.. not 15 or below (what the test deems Low)...but back then.... before we had each other.. before getting our house, having our children.. things we take pride in.. (even if others find that lowly.. anyone can do those things).. we wouldn't have felt we accomplished all that much... Even now.. they are small things. but they are Big Enough for us.. 



> My experience with the so-called "fragile male ego" is with guys who have to be right, who cannot be disagreed with without them becoming angry, patronizing, sulky or defensive, who are quick to be upset if someone looks at them askance, or who are poor losers, or who are putting other people down that they feel threatened by (which is most everyone), or who demand "respect" without having done anything to earn it, or insist on their "authority" even though they have none.


 the demanding Respect part is futile.. never works.. even with raising children, it's not the way to go.. Doesn't really work in marriage either.. If love is not given freely.. respect too. what is it really worth?? Nothing.. 

There are some people who just LIKE to argue too. ..and will fight like a Pit bull to win..I don't always feel this is low esteem though.. I feel this is more TOO HIGH of something.. well Narcissism.. 










The difference here


> *Self-esteem* differs from narcissism in that it represents an attitude built on accomplishments we've mastered, values we've adhered to, and care we've shown toward others. *Narcissism*, conversely, is often based on a fear of failure or weakness, a focus on one's self, an unhealthy drive to be seen as the best, and a deep-seated insecurity and underlying feeling of inadequacy.


I love debate.. It's always interesting to see others go at it.. because some can not handle it.. It's really a waste to even enter these discussions when you know the majority is just stacked against you anyway.. though I give those credit who stand up.. it's caused my emotions to fluster... then we go back to it ! 



> *IOW, I agree with Blondilocks that it is very much driven by poor self-esteem. And I think there are just as many women out there with fragile egos, also driven by poor self-esteem*.


 but is it Low self esteem or more on a narcissistic scale .. I wonder.. ??


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Self esteem is engendered by not worrying a great deal about what other people think or thinking about your self esteem. Funny that way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

This is an aside, SA, but I am so glad you got away from your dad and stepmother when you did. It just pains me to think anyone would treat a child that way. Such unkindness.

And I am so glad Mr. SA's family took you in at 18. 

Your husband is very good to you. And you to him. So happy you found each other. 

Okay, end of t/j!


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

all people have egos.

men and women just tend to be slightly more sensitive about different things.

I think the message of calling out men for having fragile egos is just another variation of the routine shaming that men absorb for having any emotion at all.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

men tend to take personally the things that society deems are masculine.

it's like the Rolling Stones song:

Ain't I rough enough?

Ain't I tough enough?

Ain't I rich enough?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> men tend to take personally the things that society deems are masculine.
> 
> it's like the Rolling Stones song:
> 
> ...


This is true. 

Society places a lot of pressure on both sexes to conform to the symbolic ideal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am sure every man has triggers, anon. It is up to him what he does with them.

If he expects women to protect him, he is taking a big risk. He leaves himself vulnerable to great disappointment.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jld said:


> I am sure every man has triggers, anon. It is up to him what he does with them.
> 
> If he expects women to protect him, he is taking a big risk. He leaves himself vulnerable to great disappointment.


That whooshing sound you just heard was you completely missing Anon's point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

In my case, I just know I am the sh-t and it requires no confirmation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

marduk said:


> That whooshing sound you just heard was you completely missing Anon's point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did not hear a whooshing sound. I just heard whining.

Anon, would you like to explain to me what I might have missed?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Women are hard headed and tough minded and have hard strong egos?

Yes your ass looks fat in those jeans.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anon1111 said:


> *men tend to take personally the things that society deems are masculine.*
> 
> it's like the Rolling Stones song:
> 
> ...


See this right here IS the sort of things my husband would say he DOESN'T LIVE UP TO... he's not rough at all... he's never been a tough guy...he's always called himself "scrawny".. I always remind him I prefer lankly men, so it's all good. Too much meat & I'd be complaining...and he's just a blue collar worker..

Where he works is a manly man's Job ...this surely helps ...sledgehammers, torches in hand ...he's a great mechanic .. the other day one of our sons was going on about him being able to fix anything.. telling his GF some story -about the day he was helping him in the garage, ran into a problem & how he solved it.. I guess our son was very impressed by this.. 

I was sure to tell him later about this little exchange ....he liked that.. 

Too often we speak all the negative stuff in our families, pointing out everything we do wrong, or failed to do... and forget to share the uplifting stuff.. We shouldn't brag about ourselves.. but we should uplift each other...


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

The only times I think of the " fragile male ego" is when I hear/see men complaining about feeling emasculated by things women do. These guys that can't take any criticism from women, can't have a woman tell them what to do, or teach them anything or in any way out-perform them. Their whole sense of self worth is dependent on being better than women and they want women to make sure never to challenge that belief by being in charge or leading or even gently criticizing. 

Thankfully, I think most men aren't that fragile. But there are some circles that promote a "toxic masculinity" that is based on the idea that being a man means being superior to women. And that type of masculinity is fragile because it depends so much on things outside of any man's control. They base their sense of self on how women around them behave, rather than on their own accomplishments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Women are hard headed and tough minded and have hard strong egos?
> 
> Yes your ass looks fat in those jeans.


And that is a good point, too. I am not sure it is ultimately a favor to protect people's feelings if by sharing them with them they will grow stronger.

I guess the trick is knowing who is likely to grow from hearing what we say, and who will simply sit forever in resentment. Maybe people need to earn the privilege of hearing our true feelings.

I think being able to hear your statement above and say, "You're right. My ass does look fat in these jeans. I guess I can look for another pair of jeans, or just accept it and enjoy wearing them," sounds a whole lot more empowering than seeking someone's reassurance for how the jeans look.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> And that is a good point, too. I am not sure it is ultimately a favor to protect people's feelings if by sharing them with them they will grow stronger.


 I think it depends on the personality.. this is why temperament profiles go a long way with me.. it's not so black and white.. the personality my H has will more than likely shut him down over taking action when someone is highly critical of him.. He is one more MOVED by encouragement.. 

Where as someone critical of me, will make me want to prove them wrong like "I'll show you!!"...

My H does NOT think like me at all.. I am predominately a Choleric and he is a Phlegmatic. This would go for children too... in how we handle bringing them up.. some you need to be more sensitive to what you say...like a son or daughter who is high in "Words of affirmation".. being critical of them in a negative way.. it's going to cut them more so than someone not high in this love language...

Encouragement - yes.. but to encourage.. you first need to show you understand where they are coming from....so that's my take on this..


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think I understand it..* it messes with the way they see themselves....which can strike to their core* - certain areas where they highly pride themselves (and this is not such a bad thing)...
> 
> Now I come from a more Traditional mindset here.. for a man to "Protect & Provide" for a woman, his family is HUGE.. he can't allow himself to break down.. he has to handle what life throws at him.. slay whatever dragon comes his/ our way.... this IS respecting himself and demonstrating what a MAN IS... you just don't fall apart.. or whine about life's unfairness, even if the wife is getting out of sorts (Yeah that might be me at times).....
> 
> ...


I apologize, that statement was a rhetorical question or maybe a bit of sarcasm. You just explained some of the things that make your husband feel bad or good about himself, are there not things that also make you feel bad or good about yourself? (that isn't rhetorical or sarcasm.) They are probably different things but every person has things that make them feel good or bad about themselves and even if you are talking psychologically about the ID, Ego, and superego the feelings that hurt people......well, they just hurt people whether they are men or women. 

The psychological discussion aside all people have feelings of self worth, all people have hot button topics that they feel strongly about, all people have things that make them who they are and are crushed emotionally if someone points out they aren't so good at those things.

Just because someone is a man or someone is a woman doesn't make those core things anymore important or different than how other people, men or women, feel those things.

I can tell you from experience there are also some things that will hit a woman like a sledge hammer to the very core. And as a woman if someone belittles my contribution to a project, a chore, or a relationship it would also profoundly affect me. Can you in good faith say that belittling a man's contribution hurts him worse then belittling a woman's contribution hurts her........


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> I did not hear a whooshing sound. I just heard whining.


See...I don't hear whining where all the women do.... I see a discussion.. aside from the joking posts. This is precisely WHY so many men won't speak their feelings.. 

It's not worth the hassle ...knowing if/when they open up & share.... a woman's judgment will be right behind.. letting them know they don't live up to something....or they shouldn't feel that way.. 

It's just another mindfield the man doesn't care to enter...why would he.. 

Honestly I would HATE to be a man.. I feel they carry far more, and living up to the opposite sex's expectations .. God help them all.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Runs like Dog said:


> Women are hard headed and tough minded and have hard strong egos?
> 
> *Yes your ass looks fat in those jeans*.


The thing about the a** in the jeans.. let's face it.. if our a** is big.. we already know it.







..and are proud to show it.. self esteem intact.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> all people have egos.
> 
> men and women just tend to be slightly more sensitive about different things.


Yes. 

When my wife and I first moved into the house we're currently living in, we discovered a water leak under the kitchen sink. The previous owner had incorrectly installed a saddle valve for an RO unit and it was weeping.

I replaced the copper pipe, replaced the shut offs; got rid of the saddle valve; replaced the disposal; replaced the waste lines; replaced the sink and the faucet; took out the floor of the cabinet and epoxy coated the concrete floor in bright white. 

I was pretty darn happy with result. 

Last night, we nearly argued about when the leak happened. For some strange reason, she is sure the leak occurred *after* the repair and doesn't see the insult in that.

Is that fragile male ego? I guess it depends on how you look at it....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you for your honesty Dude007.... I think the majority compare Financial Success and Lover status above all....
> 
> *1*. Can I provide for her/ the kids, keep them happy - plus your peers look up to you many times.
> *2*. Can I curl her toes , make her scream in bed...only shouting my name...
> ...



Judging from my neighbors #1 is the big one. If #2 does not happen she loses lots of material things - but not enough to make him worry -.

I'm surrounded by big ego men. Sad to say the majority are aholes.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> See...I don't hear whining where all the women do.... I see a discussion.. aside from the joking posts. This is precisely WHY so many men won't speak their feelings..
> 
> It's not worth the hassle ...knowing if/when they open up & share.... a woman's judgment will be right behind.. letting them know they don't live up to something....or they shouldn't feel that way..
> 
> ...


And that is the beauty of a forum. We all hear things a little differently. We all have the chance to grow when exposed to different ideas, too, especially if we can talk them out.

I think being a man has its challenges, like being a woman does. I have a lot of respect for men who accept their challenges, and grow from them. That is true for men _and_ women, really.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Women are hard headed and tough minded and have hard strong egos?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes your ass looks fat in those jeans.



Plenty of such women exist. I'm married to one and proud father of two.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sure said:


> I apologize, that statement was a rhetorical question or maybe a bit of sarcasm. You just explained some of the things that make your husband feel bad or good about himself, are there not things that also make you feel bad or good about yourself? (that isn't rhetorical or sarcasm.) They are probably different things but every person has things that make them feel good or bad about themselves and even if you are talking psychologically about the ID, Ego, and superego the feelings that hurt people......well, they just hurt people whether they are men or women.


 Well of course.. no sarcasm intended... I sure as hell don't live up to the expectations of feminists today.. for example. 



> The psychological discussion aside all people have feelings of self worth, all people have hot button topics that they feel strongly about, all people have things that make them who they are and are crushed emotionally if someone points out they aren't so good at those things.
> 
> Just because someone is a man or someone is a woman doesn't make those core things anymore important or different than how other people, men or women, feel those things.
> 
> I can tell you from experience there are also some things that will hit a woman like a sledge hammer to the very core. And as a woman if someone belittles my contribution to a project, a chore, or a relationship it would also profoundly affect me. Can you in good faith say that belittling a man's contribution hurts him worse then belittling a woman's contribution hurts her........


 here is what I think.. I think women can go to other women..easily...girlfriends calling girlfriends, we are there to support each other at the drop of a hat.. the silly things some of us whine about.. well let's not go there.. 

I think women can get away with crying, loosing it..(men even LIKE to comfort women, soothe them.. good men anyway) .. but to see *a man* loosing it.. Just like how the women see whining.. he can't allow for this--Hell [email protected]#$ .. yes his pride is hurt.... *he is on his own*.. 

A man can't show too much vulnerability....they are expected to be MEN... encompassing bravery, strength, leadership, and everything Alpha....so if they hurt.. too bad - that just makes you a wuss, a weak loser.... look at what JLD said.."If he expects women to protect him, he is taking a big risk. He leaves himself vulnerable to great disappointment."

I do believe most women agree with that.. yet they pound this crazy idea that the sexes are all the same..


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jld said:


> I did not hear a whooshing sound. I just heard whining.
> 
> Anon, would you like to explain to me what I might have missed?


OK.

When a woman wants to feel supported and valued, she is seeking connection/empathy.

When a man wants the same he is "whining" and has a "fragile ego"


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think most people (male and female) want to be valued by people whom they value. You can call that "ego" if you like.


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well of course.. no sarcasm intended... I sure as hell don't live up to the expectations of feminists today.. for example.
> 
> here is what I think.. I think women can go to other women..easily...girlfriends calling girlfriends, we are there to support each other at the drop of a hat.. the silly things some of us whine about.. well let's not go there..
> 
> ...


And again I apologize; it seems we live on two different universes. Men cry, men cry so hard when they are hurt they can hardly stand. And if that man is afraid to have his partner (man or woman) support him then he has chosen the wrong partner. Men show how vulnerable they are every day if one chooses to notice.

I cannot imagine being that hurt and running to girlfriends instead of the partner I have chosen to go through this life with.....I don't want "friends" at that time, I want my partner and I would hope he feels safe enough with me to want me at those times in his life.

Your definition of a MAN and my definition of a MAN are two different things......I think we will have to agree to disagree about that definition.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> I love you.


Very sweet 

My mom's mother was actually a known nazi sympathizer during the war but she and my mom didn't get along that well because she treated my mom like crap. My Jewish dad used to say that my mom picked him just to p!ss her mother off. 


Worked out just fine for me. 

My mom was not anti-Semitic in the least.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Sure said:


> And again I apologize; it seems we live on two different universes. Men cry, men cry so hard when they are hurt they can hardly stand. And if that man is afraid to have his partner (man or woman) support him then he has chosen the wrong partner. Men show how vulnerable they are every day if one chooses to notice.
> 
> I cannot imagine being that hurt and running to girlfriends instead of the partner I have chosen to go through this life with.....I don't want "friends" at that time, I want my partner and I would hope he feels safe enough with me to want me at those times in his life.
> 
> Your definition of a MAN and my definition of a MAN are two different things......I think we will have to agree to disagree about that definition.


one thing I will give jld credit for is the way she tells it is actually closer to the way it really IS.

whether the way it really is is the way it SHOULD be is a different issue entirely.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sure said:


> And again I apologize; it seems we live on two different universes. Men cry, men cry so hard when they are hurt they can hardly stand. And if that man is afraid to have his partner (man or woman) support him then he has chosen the wrong partner. Men show how vulnerable they are every day if one chooses to notice.
> 
> I cannot imagine being that hurt and running to girlfriends instead of the partner I have chosen to go through this life with.....I don't want "friends" at that time, I want my partner and I would hope he feels safe enough with me to want me at those times in his life.
> 
> Your definition of a MAN and my definition of a MAN are two different things......I think we will have to agree to disagree about that definition.


Actually what I wrote is not representative of my marriage AT ALL. but the feeling I often get reading what other women speak here on this forum...
I have seen my husband cry.. Oh yeah.. it's more when it's feelings of happiness though... there is nothing he can't say to me.. we talk openly about everything under the sun.. he has never had to worry I will see him as weak. or vulnerable. ...

I would in fact be upset if a man couldn't go there with me...the emotionally distant type & me would never work, I would be wholly frustrated with that. But I also realize we , as women, can contribute to our men shutting down.. I think this is fair to say, something to be mindful of, is all....


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Sure said:


> Your definition of a MAN and my definition of a MAN are two different things......I think we will have to agree to disagree about that definition.


What are you disagreeing with? 

Are you disagreeing that the "stoic male" is a common stereotype in Western society? 

Or are you disagreeing with SA's disagreement with it?


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> one thing I will give jld credit for is the way she tells it is actually closer to the way it really IS.
> 
> whether the way it really is is the way it SHOULD be is a different issue entirely.


This makes me sad......I am sorry your reality is not the same as my reality.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> Or he just needs to find the right woman, honestly.


I think this is the truth. 

There are plenty of women who want to nurture a man, and are very good at it. I am just not one of them.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

ocotillo said:


> What are you disagreeing with?
> 
> Are you disagreeing that the "stoic male" is a common stereotype in Western society?
> 
> Or are you disagreeing with SA's disagreement with it?


I am disagreeing with the idea of men's feelings are different because they are called the male ego. The way SA was writing it seemed to me she agreed with that idea.

from SA: I do believe most women agree with that.. yet they pound this crazy idea that the sexes are all the same..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sure said:


> Your definition of a MAN and my definition of a MAN are two different things......I think we will have to agree to disagree about that definition.


This is my contribution to how I see the best of men.. when I read this article I based my thread on.. it captured it ALL...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...thy-praise-honor-minus-alpha-beta-debate.html


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is my contribution to how I see the best of men.. when I read this article I based my thread on.. it captured it ALL...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...thy-praise-honor-minus-alpha-beta-debate.html


I am going to apologize one more time, you are confusing the begeebies out of me......you argue about how you think a man should be this big strong paragon of a hulk that just stands strong against the winds of time and then in the next sentence you say that isn't how your marriage is. So color me confused.

I do agree with the quote from your link that those things explaining what a good man is are not gender specific, but rather for all people.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I've actually come around to the point where I agree with jld in practice on this. If you're playing odds, as a man, there is really little upside to exposing yourself emotionally to a woman. There is a very strong chance that even if she comforts you in the moment, she will lose respect for you ultimately. This is not by any conscious choice but more an instinctual reaction to male weakness. You are far better off conditioning yourself to rely on yourself only.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

How do some of you people make it through the day? The level of introspection required to ensure that you're always on the optimal path to success at work, at home, and with your woman has simply got to be exhausting.

Should it really be this hard? Is all of this "manscaping" (for lack of a better word) worth the effort?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sure said:


> I am going to apologize one more time, you are confusing the begeebies out of me......you argue about how you think a man should be this big strong paragon of a hulk that just stands strong against the winds of time and then in the next sentence you say that isn't how your marriage is. So color me confused.


 I wouldn't say a Hulk.. that would be far too gruesome to look at...I don't get that impression from that list....

I am just saying he wouldn't be the epitome of what society would deem "the Alpha Male"....he's tipped on the Beta scale- all good Beta.. that word has been grossly misused due to Pick up artist articles. 

All in all I feel our personal dynamics work well.. he is still Alpha in that he supports our larger family, and he has most traits on that list I gave... some can be tweaked of course but every man will struggle with something somewhere...



> I do agree with the quote from your link that those things explaining what a good man is are not gender specific, but rather for all people.


 I was sure to mention this on the 3rd line of that thread.....posting here as long as I have.. I well know this would be pointed out by someone..

>>


> "This is truly a genderless list. If all of us could strive to be less self-involved and more outwardly tuned, we'd be the humans we all have the potential to be. Most importantly, the world would be a far better place for our children."


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> I've actually come around to the point where I agree with jld in practice on this. If you're playing odds, as a man, there is really little upside to exposing yourself emotionally to a woman. There is a very strong chance that even if she comforts you in the moment, she will lose respect for you ultimately. This is not by any conscious choice but more an instinctual reaction to male weakness. You are far better off conditioning yourself to rely on yourself only.


Lived that path.

You get lots of respect, admiration, and sex.

But little intimacy or connection.

I realized at one point that my wife actually no longer knew who I was at all.

And that day sucked.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Sure said:


> from SA: I do believe most women agree with that.. yet they pound this crazy idea that the sexes are all the same..


I don't want to put words in SA's mouth, but I believe she was referring to a mainstay in radical feminist thought, which holds that being a man is just like being a woman, sans periods, unrealistic gender stereotypes, discrimination and all other crosses that women have been forced to bear.

For example, there was a book published in 1953, entitled _The Natural Superiority of Women_ and you would think it would have been popular in feminist circles. Only it wasn't. It fell out of favor and is mostly forgotten today because it harped on the differences between men and women instead of preaching that we are virtually identical under the skin. 

SA can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she was simply commenting on the irony, that on one hand society holds unrealistic stereotypes about how men should and should not act, while at the same time, the conventional wisdom is that men are free from such constraints.


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

ocotillo said:


> I don't want to put words in SA's mouth, but I believe she was referring to a mainstay in radical feminist thought, which holds that being a man is just like being a woman, sans periods, unrealistic gender stereotypes, discrimination and all other crosses that women have been forced to bear.
> 
> For example, there was a book published in 1953, entitled _The Natural Superiority of Women_ and you would think it would have been popular in feminist circles. Only it wasn't. It fell out of favor and is mostly forgotten today because it harped on the differences between men and women instead of preaching that we are virtually identical under the skin.
> 
> SA can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she was simply commenting on the irony, that on one hand society holds unrealistic stereotypes about how men should and should not act, while at the same time, the conventional wisdom is that men are free from such constraints.


Well hit me with a sledge hammer......all I got from SA was that she was supporting the thought that men had fragile little egos and should be treated like the wonderful big lugs they all thought they were with everyone walking around on egg shells not to hurt those egos........apparently I didn't get the memo about her playing devils advocate on this issue. I do thank you for explaining though!

You know I am not really a feminist per say because I do believe there are some things in society that men are discriminated for just because they are men. But I do believe that women get discriminated for things also just because they are women. My world goes around much nicer if I think in terms of people instead of finding ways to pit women against men. I guess I must be an equalist (I know probably not a real word)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

marduk said:


> Lived that path.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Disconnect 101 with a minor in Material Culture. She admires what you bring to the table but not who you are.

SOP in my neighborhood


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> How do some of you people make it through the day? The level of introspection required to ensure that you're always on the optimal path to success at work, at home, and with your woman has simply got to be exhausting.
> 
> Should it really be this hard? Is all of this "*manscaping*" (for lack of a better word) worth the effort?


Too funny! Cletus, you are a treasure.

I don't believe that men are constantly checking the gauge on their manliness. By the time they are out of high school or college they have already made up their minds about what constitutes a 'real man'. 

They already know how they will behave in a circumstance because they saw how Clint Eastwood did it (just kidding). They have established their 'walk', their laugh, sense of humor and so on. It's when they haven't done this 'man work' that they may have trouble trying to figure out just what they are supposed to do; so, they try on masks 'til one fits just right.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anon1111 said:


> *I've actually come around to the point where I agree with jld in practice on this. If you're playing odds, as a man, there is really little upside to exposing yourself emotionally to a woman. There is a very strong chance that even if she comforts you in the moment, she will lose respect for you ultimately. This is not by any conscious choice but more an instinctual reaction to male weakness. You are far better off conditioning yourself to rely on yourself only.*


Someone should make this a thread topic... I have mixed feelings on it.. on the one hand.. I agree very much...

On the other ....if my husband couldn't connect with me emotionally sharing his soul.. I'd be very frustrated with him...if I felt he had a WALL there... 

I feel there are 2 emotional sides... we don't want one lost with the other...

For instance.. he is not a man who ever whines & complains...sure he swears when working on a vehicle.. but that's pretty normal... he is always upbeat, smiling, reaches for a hug, consistent, wouldn't matter how bad his day at work was .... in comparison to me.. he's a Saint !....I've never had to deal with a moody man... 

So if a man can retain the "connecting" vulnerability before his wife (the intimate conversations, Romance).. 

This is *POSITIVE energy* -brings a couple together....

Yet retain the *NEGATIVE energy*... showing Fear, weakness before her -when he well knows showing it will not do anything but make him feel worse...(not to mention what may stir in her, that seed of how she views him as a man slipping )..... Yeah.. he needs to have a grip on this..

We had a conversation on this a couple yrs ago laying in bed one night....he was telling me about a female co-worker who was honored at work with a reward Plague, got a write up in the paper & all....well some of the guys at work were pizzed about this.... they felt they deserved it.. acting like babies, whining, fussing







it was so bad she told my H she wished she never got it.. not worth the hassle...

He was UPSET about this, he is a very empathetic man...he told her to screw those A-holes, he was happy for her.. and reminded her she could do rounds around them ...she deserved that reward...but anyway...

This started a deeper discussion ... How he seen those men.. and I asked him ....why he's never been a complainer.. how does he do that?? .... I mean he didn't even complain when he wanted more sex -and in my view, he darn well should have [email protected]#...*He just takes it all in stride*.. so he went on to explain how he sees A MAN.. I wish I would have written down what he said that night...

In his world...*MEN do not act like that*.... it's kinda how I was speaking in post *#35* ...(I feel my view was based on listening to him that night)... what I retained anyway....

It still doesn't mean they don't feel pain, sadness, worry , fear.... but they can not show it.. something in him KNOWS this.. and lives by this code.. many men feel this way.. A woman does not have this code.. it's more acceptable for her. 

Do I admire it.. hell [email protected]# .. can he admit he still feels similar emotions we all do... YES...and I'd want him to be honest about that.. 

So yes.. I am thankful he retains what he does.. but I will always feel he should have raised the roof a bit when he wanted more







... ha ha


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Cletus said:


> How do some of you people make it through the day? The level of introspection required to ensure that you're always on the optimal path to success at work, at home, and with your woman has simply got to be exhausting.
> 
> Should it really be this hard? Is all of this "manscaping" (for lack of a better word) worth the effort?


it's actually not all that hard.

what's harder is expecting the world to bend to how you believe it should be.

you have a choice to play the game or not. 

if you choose to play the game, you're better off not questioning the rules, rather learning to work within them.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

marduk said:


> Lived that path.
> 
> You get lots of respect, admiration, and sex.
> 
> ...


well the question in that case is whether there would have been a real emotional connection either way.

if you really feel like you missed out on an emotional connection that was truly available to you, then your POV makes sense.

However, if your choice was really:

1. Have no emotional connection but also lose all of that other stuff

or

2. Have no emotional connection but keep all of that other stuff

then the obvious choice is 2


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"Yet retain the NEGATIVE energy... showing Fear, weakness before her -when he well knows showing it will not do anything but make him feel worse...(not to mention what may stir in her, that seed of how she views him as a man slipping )..... Yeah.. he needs to have a grip on this.."

SA, this is the dynamic in your marriage. It is not the dynamic in all marriages. For a man to show his wife pain, sadness, worry or fear is indeed the sign of a loving and healthy marriage. My husband knew I had his back in all things. When I asked him if he wanted me to kick his boss' a$$, he'd laugh and hug me and knew I would do it even if I had to get on a step-ladder.

Now, I might have made an exception if he had ever hid behind my skirt.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> well the question in that case is whether there would have been a real emotional connection either way.
> 
> if you really feel like you missed out on an emotional connection that was truly available to you, then your POV makes sense.
> 
> ...


If it's a binary choice, then I agree.

I'm just hoping it's a false dichotomy. I'm high maintenance. 

I only want everything.


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

marduk said:


> If it's a binary choice, then I agree.
> 
> I'm just hoping it's a false dichotomy. I'm high maintenance.
> 
> I only want everything.


Can't have everything, where would you put it?

(George Carlin)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Heatherknows said:


> Can't have everything, where would you put it?
> 
> (George Carlin)


Steven Wright.


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## Heatherknows (Aug 21, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Steven Wright.


Yeah you're right. Why did that guy stop doing stand-up?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Heatherknows said:


> Yeah you're right. Why did that guy stop doing stand-up?


He put spot remover on his dog. He disappeared.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Blondilocks said:


> "Yet retain the NEGATIVE energy... showing Fear, weakness before her -when he well knows showing it will not do anything but make him feel worse...(not to mention what may stir in her, that seed of how she views him as a man slipping )..... Yeah.. he needs to have a grip on this.."
> 
> SA, this is the dynamic in your marriage. It is not the dynamic in all marriages. *For a man to show his wife pain, sadness, worry or fear is indeed the sign of a loving and healthy marriage. My husband knew I had his back in all things. When I asked him if he wanted me to kick his boss' a$$, he'd laugh and hug me and knew I would do it even if I had to get on a step-ladder.*
> 
> Now, I might have made an exception if he had ever hid behind my skirt.



We are like that too..I was trying to make a point he doesn't go on complaining.. he will tell me when he's had a bad day.. yes.. we talk & I can get him to laugh like this too.. but he doesn't dwell ... I guess I am not getting my point across here.. doing this thread wasn't about my husband anyway.. obviously a poor choice of a thread topic .


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

If you want to understand the male ego, simply bring up the topic of penis size, again, here on TAM. Then, sit back to read all the males telling you how bad those well hung men are in the sack. Or post a pic of a handsome guy in jeans and no shirt (you know the pics). Again, wait for all the accusations from males assuming he is gay, etc. 

Guys are far more insecure than you can imagine. Well, most are, and that is all there is in perspective on this topic (most - I always assume some level of uncertainty, especially with unscientific assumptions). We are simple, we, men, don't like to be put up in comparison to other guys. It does not even matter our lot in life, married, single, divorced, widowed, young and old alike. It is in our nature to compete and to win in whatever way possible. Only great thing about getting older, is one has no time for bs, so here it is:

We bruise easily, so please, I ask you treat our ego with care.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sure said:


> Well hit me with a sledge hammer......all I got from SA was that she was supporting the thought that men had fragile little egos and should be treated like the wonderful big lugs they all thought they were with everyone walking around on egg shells not to hurt those egos........apparently I didn't get the memo about her playing devils advocate on this issue. I do thank you for explaining though!


 I certainly hope not everyone read me like this.. If a woman feels the need to walk around on egg shells with her husband....I'd think she's in fear of him...that's a very bad place to be...

It seems the problem is with the words used.. If/when a man's ego is mentioned, many are just conditioned to look at this in a negative light..the man attached a Neanderthal or something...

As I mentioned in the opening post.. I also see it along the lines of validating our men & showing admiration.. 

Not if he's a big Lug Dic*. 

A better choice would have been to put this thread in the Successful M section, never mentioning "MALE EGO"... focusing on  Validating our spouses/ husbands, *Words of Affirmation* and speaking of the chapter in His Needs/ Her Needs about "*Admiration*".. it's importance in a marriage.



Ikaika said:


> If you want to understand the male ego, simply bring up the topic of penis size, again, here on TAM. Then, sit back to read all the males telling you how bad those well hung men are in the sack. Or post a pic of a handsome guy in jeans and no shirt (you know the pics). Again, wait for all the accusations from males assuming he is gay, etc.


 I'll have to notice this the next time.. I've had someone , but I think it was a woman ask me if I liked girls after I posted a man with long hair though. 



> *Guys are far more insecure than you can imagine. Well, most are, and that is all there is in perspective on this topic (most - I always assume some level of uncertainty, especially with unscientific assumptions)*. *We are simple, we, men, don't like to be put up in comparison to other guys. It does not even matter our lot in life, married, single, divorced, widowed, young and old alike. It is in our nature to compete and to win in whatever way possible. * *Only great thing about getting older, is one has no time for bs, so here it is:*
> 
> *We bruise easily, so please I ask you treat our ego with care.*


Thank you for sharing your perspective Ikaika . :smile2:


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I've actually come around to the point where I agree with jld in practice on this. If you're playing odds, as a man, *there is really little upside to exposing yourself emotionally to a woman*. There is a very strong chance that even if she comforts you in the moment, she will lose respect for you ultimately. This is not by any conscious choice but more an instinctual reaction to male weakness. You are far better off conditioning yourself to rely on yourself only.


Anon, I do not agree with you here. Women will not lose respect for you if you share your emotions. They will lose respect for you if you expect them to be responsible for your emotional well being.

It is perfectly fine to tell your wife that you feel depressed. However, telling her she should work on making you feel better is another story.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Wow, that was quite the essay. You mean there is more to men than full belly, empty kintama....?

Geeze, I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. :/


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Duguesclin said:


> Anon, I do not agree with you here. Women will not lose respect for you if you share your emotions. They will lose respect for you if you expect them to be responsible for your emotional well being.
> 
> It is perfectly fine to tell your wife that you feel depressed. However, telling her she should work on making you feel better is another story.


LOL!

No. 

Not all women, to be sure. But it happens.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

PS: 

Dug, I love that you think you can inform everyone as to when and how women lose respect for men.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

***EYE ROLL THIS WHOLE THREAD***

This thread and the "Regret and Shame" thread are excellent examples of how different the genders are mentally wired.

Amazing how what one gender considers incredibly important the other considers completely inconsequential and vice versa.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

BetrayedDad said:


> ***EYE ROLL THIS WHOLE THREAD***
> 
> This thread and the "Regret and Shame" thread are excellent examples of how different the genders are mentally wired.
> 
> Amazing how what one gender considers incredibly important the other considers completely inconsequential and vice versa.


 Have you read my comments Betrayed Dad.. the links at the bottom of my opening post... took a moment to watch the you tube video ??

Do you eye roll them ? I DO believe there are many differences between the sexes.. I celebrate them.. I also find myself at odds with many women here... I will stay off that other thread.. I have very little to offer.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Have you read my comments Betrayed Dad.. the links at the bottom of my opening post... took a moment to watch the you tube video ??
> 
> Do you eye roll them ? I DO believe there are many differences between the sexes.. I celebrate them.. I also find myself at odds with many women here... I will stay off that other thread.. I have very little to offer.


SA, we have very different lifestyles and sometimes different views, but I agree with you that there are many differences between the sexes and we should celebrate them. We wouldn't be nearly as interesting (or sexy) to each other if we were all the same.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm not calling you out by any means. I'm trying to bite my tongue and remain neutral.

I just continue to read the utter disdain in posts of certain individuals on both sides for the opposite sex.

I'm not innocent either and I TRY to see the other side but sometimes I admit female logic escapes me.

Who here doesn't acknowledge the female ego? All humans have some ego why assign gender roles?

You want to talk fragile, tell ANY woman she's fat (regardless if she is obese or skinny). 

She will fall apart in an instant as much as any male would called out for a small pen!s.

People like to paint each side with broad strokes of the brush. A lot of these issues are on an individual basis.

I implore people here to not let some bad apples spoil the bunch. Take a step back.

TRY to understand that what you may think is STUPID is very much crucial to the other's well being.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> People like to paint each side with broad strokes of the brush. A lot of these issues are on an individual basis.


This advice is 100% correct. It is never wrong to address people as individuals.

But the stereotypes are also not a bad place to start until such time as you get to know the individual, which always takes time. If a statement applies to enough members of the opposite sex, until you learn otherwise, it's not a mistake to presume it applies to everyone. 

If there are differences between men and women, then it behooves you to expect that difference at first blush, but reject it as soon as it's clear that it no longer applies. If many men are sensitive to the size of their penis, then you're on solid ground in assuming that I am sensitive to that too.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Understanding male ego....Understanding hormonal women....The whole concept is just burning brain cells for no possible gain....Weary, stale, flat and unprofitable...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Who here doesn't acknowledge the female ego? All humans have some ego why assign gender roles?
> 
> *You want to talk fragile, tell ANY woman she's fat (regardless if she is obese or skinny).
> 
> She will fall apart in an instant as much as any male would called out for a small pen!s.*


Ha! This reminds of something that happened to me with a guy I was dating in college. He was pi$$ed at me for some reason and told me I was fat. Without missing a beat, I told him "that's not what John (his best friend) tells me". Worked better than telling him his penis was small.....and it was the absolute truth. Took the wind of out his sails in less than a milli-second.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodchuck said:


> Understanding male ego....Understanding hormonal women....The whole concept is just burning brain cells for no possible gain....Weary, stale, flat and unprofitable...


--Depends on whether the term is being used as a pejorative (As in egotistical) or whether it's meant to describe the gazillion ways a man can lose face socially.

Simple example: The battery was dead in my sister's car. There was a dead cell and it couldn't be jumped. I drove her to the place where she purchased it, so it could be replaced, since it was still in the first year of warranty.

This sister is unusually tall and strong for a woman and as independent as they come. It will be a cold day in hell when she lets any man carry a battery for her. --But nobody in the store knew that.

They all assumed that I was a big lazy lout forcing my "poor wife" to carry a 40+ lb. battery. That judgement was clearly stamped on the face of every person in the store, male and female alike.

In your house, who mixes two-cycle engine fuel? Who handles volatile chemicals? Who mixes insecticide? Who deals with a poisonous snake or spider? Who reloads? Who goes up on the roof to replace a shingle or two after a bad storm? Who cuts down a tree if it needs cutting down? Who gets a circuit turned back on if a breaker pops? Who deals with a leaky faucet? Who inspects the work of auto mechanics or perhaps does the repair on their own? Who typically drives when both of you are together?

See where I'm going with this? If the answer to most of these questions was, "Woodchuck" is that because of your, "Fragile Male Ego ͭ ͫ "


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> --Depends on whether the term is being used as a pejorative (As in egotistical) or whether it's meant to describe the gazillion ways a man can lose face socially.
> 
> Simple example: The battery was dead in my sister's car. There was a dead cell and it couldn't be jumped. I drove her to the place where she purchased it, so it could be replaced, since it was still in the first year of warranty.
> 
> ...


*Depends on whether the term is being used as a pejorative (As in egotistical) or whether it's meant to describe the gazillion ways a man can lose face socially.
*

My point is, it makes no provision for individual personality, social custom, or phase of the moon....Just too broad a subject to waste time on conjecture...Weary, stale, flat and unprofitable...Hamlet Act 1 Scene 2


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I would say that social custom is at the very heart of it.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I would say that social custom is at the very heart of it.


Yes but which society....There are thousands...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Woodchuck, I'll see all that and will add taking wifey for bra or swimsuit shopping


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> This sister is unusually tall and strong for a woman and as independent as they come. It will be a cold day in hell when she lets any man carry a battery for her.


She won't let her own brother help her? 

Sad...


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> --Depends on whether the term is being used as a pejorative (As in egotistical) or whether it's meant to describe the gazillion ways a man can lose face socially.
> 
> Simple example: The battery was dead in my sister's car. There was a dead cell and it couldn't be jumped. I drove her to the place where she purchased it, so it could be replaced, since it was still in the first year of warranty.
> 
> ...


I think it's amusing that carrying a 40# battery is seen as male work. But if she was carrying a 40 pound kid no one would give you the side eye. I'm eight months pregnant and I carry my 30 pound toddler all the time. No one has ever questioned my fitness to do so. But if they saw me carrying a box or something it would be all "oh watch out little lady, you should let a man handle that.":|



> In your house, who mixes two-cycle engine fuel? Who handles volatile chemicals? Who mixes insecticide? Who deals with a poisonous snake or spider? Who reloads? Who goes up on the roof to replace a shingle or two after a bad storm? Who cuts down a tree if it needs cutting down? Who gets a circuit turned back on if a breaker pops? Who deals with a leaky faucet? Who inspects the work of auto mechanics or perhaps does the repair on their own? Who typically drives when both of you are together?
> 
> See where I'm going with this? If the answer to most of these questions was, "Woodchuck" is that because of your, "Fragile Male Ego ͭ ͫ "


So are you saying that if I answer "I do" to all of those questions (which I do with the caveat of no chemicals while pregnant) that my husband loses face? Pshaw. Why don't more of you men revolt against such silly rules?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Nynaeve said:


> I think it's amusing that carrying a 40# battery is seen as male work.


It's amusing for sure, but it was no less of a social _faux pas_ because of its absurdity. 






Nynaeve said:


> So are you saying that if I answer "I do" to all of those questions (which I do with the caveat of no chemicals while pregnant) that my husband loses face?


No, not at all and that's actually the idea I was trying to get away from.

The term, "male ego" has a popular connotation that roughly translates to the fragile, eggshell thin veneer of bravado typical of an insecure fourteen-year-old. 

The question to Woodchuck was whether he learned some or all of those things in order to feed his fragile ego or whether the expectation that he learn to do them was simply the message he received from the time he could crawl. 

For the vast majority of men, I think the latter is probably far close to the truth than the former. The loss of face therefore would lie in a man's inability to do those things rather than his wife's ability to do them too. 




Nynaeve said:


> Pshaw. Why don't more of you men revolt against such silly rules?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a good question and I'm not sure I have the answer. There's only so far anyone can go down the road of nonconformity before they're regarded as odd.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Most of the guys I know who live in big cities don't do any of those things and no one cares, least of all the guys themselves. They weren't considered odd or less manly. Society is a-changing...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm not even sure what I would talk about with a man who didn't have a similar grasp (And love for) the physical world. Maybe I'm an antique. 

Me: Hey, check out the pair of Apaches on the horizon.

Him: What's an Apache?

Me: You know, the AH-64

Him: What's an AH-64?

Me: Attack helicopter? Gunship? Tank killer? 

Him: How do you know they're Apaches? 

Me: Look at the silhouette. Look at how fast they're going. Look at the radar dome above the rotor. 

Him: ......(Squints for a few seconds and then shrugs.)

Me: (Shifting gears slightly) The Boeing plant is northeast of here. They come out this direction on test flights. 

Him: Oh. Okay.

Me: I did a small job out there awhile back. It was surprising to see guards with real A4's. 

Him: What's an A4?

Me: (Shifting gears a little more) It's a gun. Never mind. Hey I like that Fiat of yours. Is that the normally aspirated version?

Him: Aspirated?

Me: You know, Is it the Pop or the Sport? I can't tell from here...

Him: I don't know. Look, all I wanted was transportation. I don't care what's under the hood...

Me: Decent gas mileage?

Him: I guess.

Me: You have a favorite in the World Series? 

Him: No.

Me:.....What do you say we go see what the girls are doing?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

jld said:


> My husband says it's good I am hard on him. He says if women are not demanding of men, men won't do anything.


That says more about him than about all men.

I do quite a lot without my wife demanding that I do it.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> "Yet retain the NEGATIVE energy... showing Fear, weakness before her -when he well knows showing it will not do anything but make him feel worse...(not to mention what may stir in her, that seed of how she views him as a man slipping )..... Yeah.. he needs to have a grip on this.."
> 
> SA, this is the dynamic in your marriage. It is not the dynamic in all marriages. For a man to show his wife pain, sadness, worry or fear is indeed the sign of a loving and healthy marriage. My husband knew I had his back in all things. When I asked him if he wanted me to kick his boss' a$$, he'd laugh and hug me and knew I would do it even if I had to get on a step-ladder.
> 
> *Now, I might have made an exception if he had ever hid behind my skirt.*


I must be missing something. How is "hiding behind your skirt" different from showing pain, sadness, worry or fear?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Nynaeve said:


> I think it's amusing that carrying a 40# battery is seen as male work. But if she was carrying a 40 pound kid no one would give you the side eye. I'm eight months pregnant and I carry my 30 pound toddler all the time. No one has ever questioned my fitness to do so. But if they saw me carrying a box or something it would be all "oh watch out little lady, you should let a man handle that.":|
> 
> So are you saying that if I answer "I do" to all of those questions (which I do with the caveat of no chemicals while pregnant) that my husband loses face? Pshaw. Why don't more of you men revolt against such silly rules?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can answer that. We don't revolt against such silly rules because then we lose social status, which hurts our relationships with women.

In other words, men behave the way they do because that's what women are attracted to.

So if women want men to be sensitive, they should treat sensitive men the way women currently treat rock stars or billionaires.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that though. >


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

One thing that I love about my SO is that he doesn't let any of this stuff faze him. He'll ride a pink girls bicycle if that's what's available, will carry a purse, doesn't feel like he's the only one that has to do something because it's "physical" or "manly". He's not at all threatened by the fact that I make more money, am the only (car) driver, and know much more about certain things than he does.

IME, the downside to the so-called fragile male ego is that you end up having to walk on eggshells about the stupidest of things. Because gender stereotype.

Whatever. I'm sure some people see him as odd. Both of us as odd.

Whatever.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The skill gap doesn't bother me at all. 

M2 is just better than I am at some stuff. 

But anything that involves physical risk, up on ladders, chainsaws, going to the store at night, I do my absolute best to be the one doing it. 

I don't want anything bad to happen to M2. 

That doesn't mean saying she 'can't' do those things. It means I ask in a nice voice if it would be ok if I do - whatever it is. 

So yeah - my male ego wouldn't respond well to a situation where M2 ended up getting injured, doing something I could have done. 





always_alone said:


> One thing that I love about my SO is that he doesn't let any of this stuff faze him. He'll ride a pink girls bicycle if that's what's available, will carry a purse, doesn't feel like he's the only one that has to do something because it's "physical" or "manly". He's not at all threatened by the fact that I make more money, am the only (car) driver, and know much more about certain things than he does.
> 
> IME, the downside to the so-called fragile male ego is that you end up having to walk on eggshells about the stupidest of things. Because gender stereotype.
> 
> ...


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

technovelist said:


> I can answer that. We don't revolt against such silly rules because then we lose social status, which hurts our relationships with women.
> 
> In other words, men behave the way they do because that's what women are attracted to.
> 
> ...


Is there _anything_ that men do that isn't ultimately women's fault in your world?

I married a man who doesn't follow the herd. He doesn't care what other people think of his masculinity. He doesn't base his world, his whole behavior on trying to attract the attention of all the women in the world. He does what he wants to do. He is who he wants to be. He has morals and ethics that he has developed based on what he thinks is right, honest, honorable. Not based on what may or may not be considered "high status" by people who spend their whole lives rating themselves and others.

And I think he's sexy as hell, respectable, admirable and the kind of person I want to be around, the kind of person I want to raise children with. So I married him.

I know that you are incapable of understanding that not everyone sees the world through the same lenses that you do. But, good grief, man, you could at least _try_. There's a whole lot more to human existence than the pursuit of sex. You're missing out on so, so much that is worthwhile in life. And it's really kinda sad.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Nynaeve said:


> I married a man who doesn't follow the herd. He doesn't care what other people think of his masculinity.


I'd say it's one thing not to follow the herd. It's quite another to be perceived *by other men* as emasculated, or a coward, or helpless, or unable to cope with simple problems. 

Honest question. Is your husband even a tiny bit impressed with this picture?


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> Too funny! Cletus, you are a treasure.
> 
> I don't believe that men are constantly checking the gauge on their manliness. By the time they are out of high school or college they have already made up their minds about what constitutes a 'real man'.
> 
> They already know how they will behave in a circumstance because they saw how Clint Eastwood did it (just kidding). They have established their 'walk', their laugh, sense of humor and so on. It's when they haven't done this 'man work' that they may have trouble trying to figure out just what they are supposed to do; so, they try on masks 'til one fits just right.


I am not convinced that is true at all.

How many articles, opinion pieces, etc. have we all seen about men who believed that that had to be the strong, stoic type, and then becomes bombarded with messages from society that such behavior is "toxic masculinity", "vestiges of patriarchy", or whatever, and that men must instead be sensitive and emotional? I think there are a lot of men who, every day, have to deal with conflicting messages, which I think SA has posted about in this very thread. Also in this very thread, Marduk posted about how he himself lived the stoic life until the day his wife "no longer knew who he was."

So, no, I don't think that it what you post is true.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Nynaeve said:


> I married a man who doesn't follow the herd. He doesn't care what other people think of his masculinity. He doesn't base his world, his whole behavior on trying to attract the attention of all the women in the world. He does what he wants to do. He is who he wants to be. He has morals and ethics that he has developed based on what he thinks is right, honest, honorable. Not based on what may or may not be considered "high status" by people who spend their whole lives rating themselves and others.
> 
> And I think he's sexy as hell, respectable, admirable and the kind of person I want to be around, the kind of person I want to raise children with. So I married him.


Amazingly...I agree with this part of your post anyway.... but I can also see where @technovelist is coming from too... ... there is truth on both sides.. I took the time to do a thread asking how women feel about Sensitive men.. opening that up... We want them sensitive but also strong, manly ....

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...our-thoughts-sensitive-men-good-bad-ugly.html

My husband doesn't give a crap about any of this stuff either.... it's *ME* who does all this silly thinking and likes to make threads on controversial subjects..:smile2:


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

technovelist said:


> I must be missing something. How is "hiding behind your skirt" different from showing pain, sadness, worry or fear?


How sad it is that you don't know the difference.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

norajane said:


> *Most of the guys I know who live in big cities don't do any of those things and no one cares, least of all the guys themselves. They weren't considered odd or less manly. Society is a-changing..*.


I feel one of the reasons I take such a different view of things -with other females here .. is that I am a country girl.. things are a little different outside of the city.. you'll also find more Traditional males.. '

There was a thread here started by Anonymous07 (?) a while back how she worked late at night.. and had to walk out into a dark parking lot to get to her car..... she was uncomfortable...she asked her co-workers, many of them men, if they could walk her to her car.. they seemed to forget.. didn't want to, wasn't a big deal to them.. 

She was seeking others opinions on this.. how to handle it... 

You could see the divide in the answers.. on the one hand.. women don't need men.. why should a woman be "special" being walked out in the dark...Men do it .. 

Mentioning that thread to my husband, he told me when working the night shift at his 1st job...he made sure to always walk out with his female co-worker when she was ready to leave...he didn't want her walking across the parking lot alone when it was dark... she never had to ask.. he was raised to be mindful of such things.. if it was a man, No, this wouldn't come to mind...

But ya know... this has become a controversial deal in every aspect of society anymore.... any time a man helps a woman , if there is the slightest intent that she may need more protection.. My Lord.. the sh** will hit the fan! He's sexist ! He thinks I am weak ! 

Met with enough attitude from women.. men will adapt...it's not worth the hassle.....

My take on this. I wouldn't ask -I'd get me some mace.. and do my own thing or I'd get another job.. but I would have the utmost respect and admiration for the MAN/, men who actually care.. even if that makes them more old fashioned.. and chivalrous.. LOVE IT !


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ocotillo said:


> *I'd say it's one thing not to follow the herd. It's quite another to be perceived by other men as emasculated, or a coward, or helpless, or unable to cope with simple problems.
> 
> Honest question. Is your husband even a tiny bit impressed with this picture? *


I've seen this picture before.. often wondered is this REAL... is there something beneath them we can't see if one of them fell ?... but yeah....I'm in AWE of the bravery of such men.. truly... 

It's true.. no man wants to feel he doesn't "measure up".. 

My husband is a thin guy...He is physically fit / strong *enough* for the job he holds... it can be physically demanding at times .. 

His testosterone is on the lower end of normal for his age as well - having had it tested yrs ago...

I remember a conversation we had.. It was vulnerable...he's always very honest...where he sometimes doesn't feel he "measures up".. it was in physical strength... in comparison to some of his co-workers...His saying that to me wouldn't cause me to loose any respect.. (maybe it would for other woman, I don't know)...He's always held his own, and then some...and that goes a long way.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

technovelist said:


> I must be missing something. How is "hiding behind your skirt" different from showing pain, sadness, worry or fear?





Blondilocks said:


> How sad it is that you don't know the difference.


Please enlighten us as to what the difference is.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Nynaeve said:


> Is there _anything_ that men do that isn't ultimately women's fault in your world?
> 
> I married a man who doesn't follow the herd. He doesn't care what other people think of his masculinity. He doesn't base his world, his whole behavior on trying to attract the attention of all the women in the world. He does what he wants to do. He is who he wants to be. He has morals and ethics that he has developed based on what he thinks is right, honest, honorable. Not based on what may or may not be considered "high status" by people who spend their whole lives rating themselves and others.
> 
> ...


Your husband sounds like a fine man, and I'm happy for you both, but many people are not so fortunate and have to adapt their behavior to be successful in their relationships.

Now back to your first comment. Many things that men do are not the fault of women; I have never said anything to the contrary.

However, it is true *in general* that if men want to have sex with women, which *most *men do, they are heavily influenced by what *most *women find sexually attractive.

It is also true that *most *women do not find sensitive men sexually attractive. Thus, a man who is interested in sex with women will probably have better results by not being sensitive but by being rather stoic. I wish this were not the case, because I also have my soft side that I would rather be able to display more, but I am convinced that would be a mistake.

And of course sex is not the only worthwhile thing in life. I spend most of my time reading and working on my projects, not thinking about sex. But I can tell you that if I were sexually deprived, which I am not, and assuming that everything else was okay in my life, sex would be virtually the only thing I would think about.

This is very similar to the case where if someone is very thirsty, their thoughts are almost completely devoted to finding something to drink. Once their thirst has been sated, they can turn their attention to other issues, and the same is true of sex.

I hope that explains my position better.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Duguesclin said:


> Anon, I do not agree with you here. Women will not lose respect for you if you share your emotions. *They will lose respect for you if you expect them to be responsible for your emotional well being.
> *
> It is perfectly fine to tell your wife that you feel depressed. However, telling her she should work on making you feel better is another story.


 I know how your wife feels about this.. she would see this as *unadulterated PRESSURE*.. there would be a lack of freedom for her, with growing disgust.. this is unacceptable, coddling to a man in any way...it destroys how she sees him, loves him, wants him.. all of it.. she needs a strong tower...this makes her feel safe. 

I can understand this to a point... but then again.. I feel we all Influence each other.. what we DO , or don't do.. this has a chain reaction when sharing a life with someone... we can't help but be "affected" by each other.. if we are not.. well.. I wouldn't understand THAT person.. In this way.. whether male or female.. I think we need to take ownership when we carelessly / callously hurt each other...do I feel some spouses behavior contributes to another's deep sadness/ depression.. Yes.. I do. 

There is an area that I wouldn't be able to handle in a man -and would eventually loose all respect and look at him more like a mouse... it's never been about showing emotion, even admitting insecurities before me....I just see that as human.. 

What I wouldn't be able to handle is *Irresponsibility* (making excuses) or too much Insensitivity......not being able to take ownership of his faults, screw ups, seeing how he is destroying himself, his family with addictions (as an example) , something that has the power to rip a couple's foundation.

This I would not have the patience for.. someone lacking self awareness...who couldn't own his own Sh**....sure we mess up... do something stupid in a moment , but then a light bulb comes on , we're not happy with our own behavior & we make amends.. 

This covers a multitude of sins - so I feel. 



technovelist said:


> Your husband sounds like a fine man, and I'm happy for you both, *but many people are not so fortunate and have to adapt their behavior to be successful in their relationships.*


 would make a Good discussion topic here..... I agree with you.. and have noted posts here where this has been the case.. it just IS what it is.. 




> It is also true that *most *women do not find sensitive men sexually attractive. Thus, a man who is interested in sex with women will probably have better results by not being sensitive but by being rather stoic. I wish this were not the case, because I also have my soft side that I would rather be able to display more, but I am convinced that would be a mistake.


 I don't know that women want Stoic.. I think they want Strong, manly ...but also the ability to be *Romantic* -which IS sensitive in it's very nature. A combination not every man can pull off... and as I have learned here on TAm.. not all women seem to need this either. 












> And of course sex is not the only worthwhile thing in life. I spend most of my time reading and working on my projects, not thinking about sex. But I can tell you that if I were sexually deprived, which I am not, and assuming that everything else was okay in my life, sex would be virtually the only thing I would think about.
> 
> This is very similar to the case where if someone is very thirsty, their thoughts are almost completely devoted to finding something to drink. Once their thirst has been sated, they can turn their attention to other issues, and the same is true of sex.


 I believe this to be very true.. the whole... Sex may only be 10% of a marriage, but when it's not happening - it often consumes the one suffering it's lack, taking a great blow emotionally/ physically... it's void feeling like 90% of a couples marital issues...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

This is interesting angle - so called male hurt ego as simply man showing his emotions. Never thought of this it that way.

Also interesting is discussion on how much of his emotions men are allowed to show in the marriage. There are many men claiming that they have to keep their guard up to stay attractive to their wife. I think there could be reasons for this:

1. That'show the dynamic was established from the beginning. If all you were showing her was your strength and manliness, this is what she got and apparently this was what she was after. Cannot blame her now

2. Some husbands have too many demands. They use the same attitude they have at work, and start treating their marriage as business, demanding things are done their way. The balance in the relationship is moved towards them, becomes more of a parent child, instead of two equal adults. The wife just does things to keep things calm, but is no longer interested in emotional upheavals of her husband. Being in charge comes wiht the cost of loosing partnership.

3. Husband does not pay much attention when his wife tries to share her problems, doubts, frustrations. Either does not listen at all, or tries to fix if for her, instead of just being there supportive. Then he gets the same when he needs support.

4. Sharing emotions vs. whining. - I think this is important distinction. I can listen about your problems for hours, and talk about it, look for solutions or just be there. What I can not take is too much whining. A little is ok, everybody needs to vent sometimes. But at one point you need to stop whining and take action. And for me this is not because I need my man strong. I cannot take whining from man or a woman. My female friends are not whiners, they are rather pragmatic ladies. We give each other support, and then push to get up. Even my kids whining drive me crazy!



For me No. 2 happened once kids show up. Before we were partners, two young professionals going forwards. When I stayed home, balance changed and things went sour. Before we would share all problems, doubts, ect. and the sex was great. Which goes against many of the men here claiming that partnership killed their marriage and manhood. When my marriage was partnership, it was our best time, including sex. I wanted to hear his problems, and help him wiht them. And no. 4 - he whines too much, without doing anything about the problem. And that was not a guy I married, he was the fixer. Now he is a complainer, who expects me to fix things for him. I do not mind doing my share, but right now it seems my share is to do his and my part.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> This is interesting angle - so called male hurt ego as simply man showing his emotions. Never thought of this it that way.
> 
> Also interesting is discussion on how much of his emotions men are allowed to show in the marriage. There are many men claiming that they have to keep their guard up to stay attractive to their wife. I think there could be reasons for this:
> 
> ...


Those could all be true, but there could also be at least one more reason:

5. *Many* women aren't sexually attracted to men who show negative emotions like fear or anxiety because such men look weak and therefore could not protect them against outside dangers. So if a man is married *to a woman like this*, he has to be very careful about what he shows her if he wants her to stay attracted to him.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've seen this picture before.. often wondered is this REAL... is there something beneath them we can't see if one of them fell ?... but yeah....I'm in AWE of the bravery of such men.. truly...


Yes, it's real, or at least there were real events like that when they were putting up skyscrapers in the 1930's. And no, there was nothing below them.

Needless to say, this would not happen today, which is a good thing!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

technovelist said:


> Those could all be true, but there could also be at least one more reason:
> 
> 5. *Many* women aren't sexually attracted to men who show negative emotions like fear or anxiety because such men look weak and therefore could not protect them against outside dangers. So if a man is married *to a woman like this*, he has to be very careful about what he shows her if he wants her to stay attracted to him.


agreed. I think that would go under no. 1


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> agreed. I think that would go under no. 1:
> 
> "1. That's how the dynamic was established from the beginning. If all you were showing her was your strength and manliness, this is what she got and apparently this was what she was after. Cannot blame her now"





technovelist said:


> Those could all be true, but there could also be at least one more reason:
> 
> 5. *Many* women aren't sexually attracted to men who show negative emotions like fear or anxiety because such men look weak and therefore could not protect them against outside dangers. So if a man is married *to a woman like this*, he has to be very careful about what he shows her if he wants her to stay attracted to him.


The difference between 1 and 5 is that even if it weren't that way in the beginning, he might find that it has to be that way later. This is at least partly because the "new relationship" chemicals can mask the underlying situation so that everything seems fine at first even if he is willing to show his softer side.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> Also interesting is discussion on how much of his emotions men are allowed to show in the marriage. There are many men claiming that they have to keep their guard up to stay attractive to their wife. I think there could be reasons for this:
> 
> 1. That'show the dynamic was established from the beginning. If all you were showing her was your strength and manliness, this is what she got and apparently this was what she was after. Cannot blame her now
> 
> ...



-Curious why the chain of thought seems to naturally flow in the uncharitable direction of lack of forthrightness, demands, inattentiveness and whining.

Maybe, just maybe the need to suppress and cloak emotions is learned in childhood? --Via the example of fathers, older male relatives, role models, entertainment and social feedback?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tech,
We had a thread - where we discussed the following term extensively: sensitive 

I will only speak to how I perceive M2 in this regard. 

Sensitive: 
1. Highly aware of other people and especially their emotional states.
2. Easily upset, hurt or frightened.

M2 LOVES (1), dislikes (2). 

Has a deep rooted, intense hatred of the expression of 'fear' on my face. 

That said, plenty of times we have a conversation goes something like this. 

MEM: I was scared shlt less when X happened. So I did XYZ and everything turned out good. 
M2: Expression of admiration (by far my favorite)





technovelist said:


> Your husband sounds like a fine man, and I'm happy for you both, but many people are not so fortunate and have to adapt their behavior to be successful in their relationships.
> 
> Now back to your first comment. Many things that men do are not the fault of women; I have never said anything to the contrary.
> 
> ...


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tech,
> We had a thread - where we discussed the following term extensively: sensitive
> 
> I will only speak to how I perceive M2 in this regard.
> ...


Exactly. And what if you had said "So I had no idea what to do and hid under the bed"?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Very matter of factly - M2'says: Sticking your head in the sand is not a strategy. 

Very painful to be on the receiving end of that comment. 




technovelist said:


> Exactly. And what if you had said "So I had no idea what to do and hid under the bed"?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

I'm sure, but my point was that you wouldn't have seen that expression of admiration.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I know how your wife feels about this.. she would see this as *unadulterated PRESSURE*.. there would be a lack of freedom for her, with growing disgust.. this is unacceptable, coddling to a man in any way...it destroys how she sees him, loves him, wants him.. all of it.. she needs a strong tower...this makes her feel safe.
> 
> I can understand this to a point... but then again.. I feel we all Influence each other.. what we DO , or don't do.. this has a chain reaction when sharing a life with someone... we can't help but be "affected" by each other.. if we are not.. well.. I wouldn't understand THAT person.. In this way.. whether male or female.. I think we need to take ownership when we carelessly / callously hurt each other...do I feel some spouses behavior contributes to another's deep sadness/ depression.. Yes.. I do.


It is probably hard to explain, but I just don't feel I can really hurt Dug. He is very strong in himself, very secure. He loves me, but does not need emotional support from me. 

That is partly why we have the relationship we do. I can say anything to him and he will be able to focus on the message, and not get sidetracked by the delivery. 

For someone like me, that is a huge benefit. I can be as truthful as possible, knowing it will not be held against me. It is freeing.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> It is probably hard to explain, but I just don't feel I can really hurt Dug. He is very strong in himself, very secure. He loves me, but does not need emotional support from me.
> 
> That is partly why we have the relationship we do. *I can say anything to him and he will be able to focus on the message, and not get sidetracked by the delivery.
> 
> For someone like me, that is a huge benefit. I can be as truthful as possible, knowing it will not be held against me. It is freeing.*


Jld.. would it make any sense to say this is all true for me too.. I can say any darn thing to my husband...and have in an unruly moment mind you ....(thank God we can laugh about 99% of it - after the fact).... total freedom here... he has never lorded something over me or held it against me ...never to be brought up in a future argument... He's amazing that way... 

Not a grudge holder in any way... but at the same time.... *I CAN HURT HIM*.... I have that ability...(example if he felt my heart pined for another, If I suddenly didn't care about spending time with him)...He would FEEL THE BREECH.... he is sensitive like that...I wouldn't take THIS away.... It reminds me that I am very very special to him.. that I have the power to MOVE him, shake him (that goes for in the bedroom too!) ....Wink Wink... remember that Power thread by Holland. 

There are pluses & minuses with any given personality....I was reading this article about the Marboro man vs the Sensitive artist type.... The Secret To Understanding Men: They Don't Go Both Ways



> *There are two poles that women find attractive: The Marlboro Man and the Sensitive Artist*....
> 
> The Marlboro Man is traditional, doesn’t like to talk about his problems, doesn’t like to listen to yours, but he is a MAN. He’s a stoic, and if he has any emotional needs, you’ll never know it. Problem is that it’s hard to feel CONNECTED to a guy like this. Sharing information is what makes us close, and if you have a guy who really doesn’t roll like that, you’re going to constantly wonder where you stand and what he’s thinking.
> 
> ...


 it's just an article.. I can see where so much of this holds true... but it can't fully fully capture our men.. I have never looked upon my husband as needy or a roller-coaster.. ME.. I can be those things.. Never him.. he doesn't need to share with me like a girlfriend (never has).... but he can listen like one ! And I do so appreciate it. 

What's so important is being able to love & accept our men for who they are, how they love....(at least most of the time, right!)...it's good we are not all attracted to the same things....

It's true for me though.. comparing these 2 men in the article.. I would go for the sensitive Artist type over the Marlboro man every time.. 

If I felt nothing I did could influence, move, hurt, affect him... I would see him ...as Personal spoke... STOIC.

Too much Stoic would drive me CRAZY in a man. :banghead: 

To make it with Superman... I need some Clark Kent in there to bring him down to earth.. I need to touch, feel, a human side, some vulnerability, where emotions run deep....that he bleeds too.










Can't argue with the article when it says this...



> *The ideal man should be:*
> 
> Strong and stoic, but sensitive and open to sharing.
> 
> ...


 but the reality too often is..."Don’t expect guys to be all things at all times. That’s just wishful thinking....Realize that these are all contradictions. Sensitive artists want to talk. Entrepreneurs will work past six. Charmers will exploit their skills with women. Expecting otherwise is useless."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SA, I think you are with exactly the right man for you. He complements you very well, and that makes for a harmonious marriage. 

Your knowing that you can hurt your husband makes you feel special to him. It gives you a sense of importance, of power in the relationship. 

And you use that power very responsibly. You never try to hurt him, but only to bless him.  

You are exactly the right woman for him. And he clearly knows this, and feels very lucky to be with you.


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