# What made me stay and put up with him and how our life was?



## struggle (May 13, 2013)

I read through these forums every once in awhile when I'm feeling sad or confused about my situation, sometimes it's hard to find one to relate to because a lot of people seem to be dealing with cheating (so sad to read about though....I went through that with my first husband). This marriage I ended up with someone with different traits than my first, but it still was a big miss in terms of a healthy relationship, which I didn't realize until after about a year of marriage. 

I put up with a lot more than I should have...things like his lack of sense of responsibility in pretty much anything, his unwillingness to help me take care of our home even when he wasn't working full time, his unrelenting passive-aggressive and narcassistic tendencies, his criticism of a lot of things I would do and the way I do them, his skewed sense of moral values about certain things that I thought were just wrong, his constant tardiness, his ability to belittle my emotions and never allowed me to justify my anger, and in the end - his unwillingness to see that he also needed to make some changes to himself to get our marriage to work. Maybe I should call him a manipulation-aholic

What really had me in a web of confusion is that he would do all the above in such a perfectly passive-aggressive way that he could say he was innocent of malicious intentions and somehow was able to spin it so that I thought "I" was the problem. I don't understand how I got to that place, but I did, and I spent many frustrated days sometimes thinking I WAS a mean person, and no one else could love someone like me, or somedays I would think wait...no I'm not....HE'S wrong, only for him to either brush me off as though "Oh..here she goes throwing a fit again" or worse, he gets mad enough that I'm scared into thinking he'll leave me because I really pushed his button this time. In the end I was so confused, frustrated and mad that I just shut down and stopped doing pretty much everything except work. No cooking, no sex, and minimal cleaning. I wasn't declaring it, I just shut down and didn't want to do anything...like I wanted to flow through life. Well...H just couldn't have that. So in the end HE initiated the seperation...no sex and no food....whattt??! I find it sad, and I get self-critical when I think about how I let it get that far.

Now that we're seperated I realize that he's NOT going to change, and he does think I should be the one to change and make all the sacrifices for our marriage. And I'm not OK with that. 

I'm wondering if I have some sort of personality that really attaches to a man when we're in a relationship, why the heck would I become afraid of someone leaving me because I'm standing up for myself? 

I still find myself thinking about how much I love him....but.....it would never change. And that's what I have to keep reminding myself.


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## gigi888 (Oct 6, 2013)

Struggle - Your marriage sounded just like mine. The only difference is how our STBXH ended it. Yours walked away while mine found a replacement before he was willing to walk away. I did not even realize what a horrible life I was living until he left. It was like a fog was lifted.

Please read about codependency and you will find out why you stayed for this long.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Thanks gigi I will. I thought with my first husband that he was just a cheating bastard. But now with this second marriage I think I really need to evaluate what's I'm doing or thinking that's attracting me to these narcissitic-types.


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## backik (Mar 12, 2009)

Funny thing too... my marriage was very similar to yours accept I ended up leaving STBXH. It took A LOT of therapy and soul searching to tell myself to finally snap out of denial that my relationship was not healthy. 

Sometimes you wonder... did I stay b/c I'm afraid of being alone?


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

> What made me stay and put up with him and how our life was?


Because as a child someone in your FOO made you feel unworthy of love. And so, you became an over-giver, focused on the needs of others to the neglect of your own. Get into IC and fix that.

Narcissists can smell these sorts of people a mile away; they prey on them.


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

Red Sonja said:


> Because as a child someone in your FOO made you feel unworthy of love. And so, you became an over-giver, focused on the needs of others to the neglect of your own. Get into IC and fix that.
> 
> Narcissists can smell these sorts of people a mile away; they prey on them.


yep, in my case it was my mother, my father, and my oldest sisters. 
Well pretty much everyone.

Your story is similar to mine, very similar. I lived to make him happy, I would be in so much pain and hurt if he was unhappy. I would feel stress and anxiety because I wanted to make him soo very happy!!!

In the end, I left my ex. One day, I worked very late, I had to drive 1 hour from work to home. He was home the entire day. I had a bad headache, I was very hungry, and tired. It was very late. I had gotten him some chocolate chip cookies because those are his favorites, I came home and there was no food. I went to give him a hug and he brushed me off, he was upset because I was late (I had been doing drill with the National Guard). I looked around, no food. 

I broke down, went straight to bed, and cried so hard, I began thinking to myself "Is this what I deserve?" "I am not even getting sex" (our sex life was once a month or once every two months).
He came in, tried to calm me, and I was very mean to him which in turn made him angry and began being mean. He went to play xbox in his game room. I cried again, kept repeating over and over "Is this what I deserve?"

That is when I knew I would not care if I ended up alone. That is when I stopped being afraid of dying alone. That was the straw the broke the camel's back.

From time to time, I feel guilty about leaving, but he is done with me which makes it easier to ease the guilt.

letting go is very painful, even though we know we must. We still hurt, but time makes it better.


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## ICLH (Dec 26, 2013)

Very similar treatment going on in my situation as well except I found out right before moving out that he was seeing someone as well. I started to going to IC a couple weeks ago. I told her that I wanted to work on my boundaries. I wanted to make sure I didn't make the same mistakes twice and reinvent myself. I told her I don't want to allow people to abuse me anymore. She told me that the reason I let this happen is because there are emotional issues that I never dealt with in my past that are causing me to get into these emotionally damaging relationships now. So now I need to deal with past issues that I stuffed down inside of me, get passed them, and than work on where to go from there. Get into IC. Do it for you. It helps.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Thanks everyone. My parents, especially my mom, could be very oppressive of my feelings. I was a middle child of 4. I was very "bossy" and hot headed, which got me into trouble a LOT. But my mom was also very bossy and hot headed (influenced by different reasons due to a very tough childhood), and no one, not even my dad most of the time, could win against my mom. My mom also is an expert at manipulating people's emotions. All of us learned how to internalize our emotions, and there were many times I felt like I wanted to explode I was so frustrated and angry. So I now have a mechanism when I reach a certain level of anger or frustration, I cry. We could barely ever have an opinion that was different from hers. I remember I wrote a report about abortion, and I read it to her and she disagreed with me, and we literally argued for an hour before I finally gave in and just changed my report to her opinion. When you agree with her and are on her side, everything is golden and beautiful, but when you're not - be prepared. By the time I was a teenager and could drive I "ran away" to friend's houses a few times, and moved out on my own as soon as I could when I was done with HS. I went through a terrible stage of rebellion in my teenage years, I practically did the opposite of everything they told me to do. I started fighting right back. OMG..am I reliving my relationship with my mom in my marriages?? It kinda sounds like it doesn't it......

My parents were always there for me, but I couldn't live under them and their rules. She has mellowed out a bit over the years, but she's still pretty much the same way.

I thought about one of my best "friends" growing up. Since kindergarten we were friends. She wasn't exactly the nicest girl in the world, but I wanted to be friends with her. She was strong and stood up for herself, and the boys liked her which was fun on the playground. The problem was that she was a bully and would sometimes come down on me, but I guess I lived for the moments when she was nice and she always got to do cool things because her parents owned limos and her dad always gave her money. She could be (what I thought was) a good friend, but at the same time she could be mean and would say rude things. It was like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The way I saw her explode at her mom or grandma was like nothing I'd ever seen before. In hind site I'm sure she was just mimicking the way her dad treated them. My parents never ever liked her, but I insisted on being her friend. We were friends into our 20s, until after my first divorce I realized that she wasn't a person that made me feel good. Even at that age she always had drama. She was there for me, but at the same time I felt on edge with her. At that point I was always nervous to visit her, so I just dropped her. I stopped calling and answering her calls, and she faded away. I feel good about letting that friendship go. I wish I had made different friends in school now, because it wasn't a healthy friendship, nor a good influence on me. Just a thought....

It seems like I'm doing the same thing with my choice in men...and it needs to stop. The problem is that they hide it so well, it takes time for it to start coming out. Or I'm oblivious to the clues...either could be the case.

Now my STBXH is irate with me because my mom has asked for a couple pieces of equipment back that she let us use when we had the business, and she was mad because she found out today that he hadn't given them to me and he kept them. He says she's an Indian-giver and that it's none of her business what he and I decided what we split. Funny thing is that he ended up with 80% of it, because as probably most of you know there's no arguing with a narcissist and you end up choosing your battles, but of course he doesn't see it that way. He obviously still feels jipped somehow. 

He turned nasty and twisted it around like it's my fault, it's my fault because I probably brought it up to her that he kept it, and now I've set it up so I can have it when he would have happily let me 'borrow' it if I needed it. He also says it's all my fault because of the way I brought the topic up to him, and I created a big mess. So....he "knows how it is now". At first he was refusing to give it me, actually he would give it to me if I gave him something in return "it's not for free." 

But now, he's going to drop it off, because he doesn't give a sh*t because it's older equipment anyways and then he'll be "out of me life". In other words, I'm a bad person, I messed it up, and now I'm on punishment. 

What the frick just happened? First off....he didn't pay for it, my mom gave it to us to use for the business (which is now dissolved) and I find it confusing he wanted to keep it since he doesn't want to do the business anymore. He didn't pay for it, she did, and wasn't using it so let us use it. I assume he probably wanted to sell it, but who knows. And of course, he dismisses anything I've ever done and only see's how much he's done and he's such a nice guy and now he's TIRED of it --- so what's my problem?? As usual...I walk away from most conversations like this with him dizzy like wtf just happened. What an over-reaction, but...you know....it is my fault.....as usual :scratchhead:  

He knows he has the money thing over my head because I really wanted him to continue helping me pay off our debt which is why we've kept in touch, but d*mn is it worth it?


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

struggle:

Read "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie. You might find it at your library or you can order it from the internet. You can even download it from amazon.com. If you don't have a Kindle or Nook, they offer a FREE Kindle download for laptop computers at amazon.com. Download it, buy the ebook (pretty cheaply), and START READING it. 

You'll learn a lot about yourself and with knowledge about how/why you react like you do (and attract who you do) comes the POWER to change yourself...just by becoming aware.

Another good one is "Who's Pulling Your Strings: How to Stop the Cycle of Manipulation". Don't remember the author, but that is a GREAT one for recognizing and, more importantly, OVERCOMING attempts by others to manipulate you.

Good luck, struggle! *hugs*


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Thanks, I will! I'm so exhausted right now but can't sleep. Everyone is telling me I'm not wrong for what I did, I'm not a bad person, HE'S the one showing his a$$ for acting that way. But I can't help but feel sad. I don't like someone to be mad at me. Ugh...how pathetic is that..... 
I'm a Taurus dangit...aren't we supposed to be strong?
I don't feel like I have low self-esteem, but I feel like STBXH treats me like I do. So maybe I do. Or maybe he wants me to.


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## ICLH (Dec 26, 2013)

Make a list of 15 things that are positive about yourself. Next make a list of boundaries for yourself when it comes to what you will and will not tolerate when forming relationships with people. This is what my therapist made me do after my first session. I went to with some of the same problems that you have.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Thanks ICLH. That's a good start.

I would have to sit here and really think about 15 good things about myself. I've been living with someone who always saw my flaws and loved to point them out to me when the opportunity presented itself. And then when mad bring back old situations that I thought I was doing good and tell me how they weren't good enough.

With someone like that it's like you have to turn off all emotion to not be hurt. Unless you're living for HIM and HIM only, he's not happy. You must always be concerned with his status - is he hungry? Does he feel sick today? Am I talking to him the right way? You're not allowed to have your own thoughts or your own opinions without getting put down one way or another. If I approach him about something in a way he feels offensive - he reacts with anger and then tells me I'm wrong and I have attitude and "this" is how I should have approached him. So I'm a bad person for coming at him that way. What's funny as I didn't see myself as being rude - it's just a topic he doesn't like, or something he doesn't want to do. As long as the world revolves around him, everything's OK, but as soon as you ask for something that involves HIM sacrificing something, whether it be time/money/putting in more work, no. If you want to do something and spend your own money/time/putting in more work, fine, but he doesn't want to be involved - and he will be waiting for the 'told you so' moment when things get hard.

I ordered a book, but while waiting for it to arrive I've been reading up on the internet about manipulation and narcissists and he has a LOT of the qualifications:

I felt like this was a very clear definition of STBXH. I read it and was like....wow....
At the core of extreme narcissism is egotistical preoccupation with self, personal preferences, aspirations, needs, success, and how he/she is perceived by others

He has huge concerns about what other people think of him. Something like I've never ever seen before. He's also very paranoid.

-The use of unclear agendas in attempts to get another person to do what you want.
He's very vague with explanations, and unable to communicate a lot of things of what he wants, you're just supposed to "know"

- They don’t care what you want. They may act as though they do, but know that they are also great actors

-They are charming so everyone will like them.
Manipulator side. With strangers he's very sweet, outgoing and likes to have fun and make people laugh. On the narcissitic side of him is that he truly believes he's a nice guy and can really do no wrong. It's just "who he is"

-They know what gets to you. They will use your vulnerabilities as ammunition. It’s your secrets and fears that they use to make you appear unstable and unreasonable. 

-They always seem to get what they want from others. They exploit friends, acquaintances associates, taking advantage of others to secure their own desires.
This is true in so many ways. His sisters and mother just basically give in to his attitude, there's no arguing with him. So if he's happy everyone is happy. His mom is very lose-handed with her money with him, if he really needs it he will get it. I remember one day a friend of his wouldn't do business with him (barter-business) because he said "he always feels jipped" when dealing with him

-Minimization (“it was only a joke”)
A favorite of his. Always safe in his back pocket. If you react defensively or with anger it's your fault because you have no sense of humor

-Irresponsible and unreliable
Always always always late, to everything. Nothing is safe from his tardiness. If he doesn't feel something is important, he will stand you up. When you call him out on it he tells you to relax...don't get so upset

-Unreasonable expectations of people and situations. They feel they are entitled to favorable treatment and unquestioning compliance with their hope and expectations

Those all really stuck out to me. I'm going to do some research on what attracts me to this type of person. Besides my obvious huge desire to please my SO - even if it makes me miserable to do so. It's kinda making me sick how much time I'm taking thinking about him and the way he is. I need to start concentrating on me. What am I doing because my two X's are very obviously narcissistic, different but the same, and what I'm doing to feed their narcissism because in both relationships it just got worse over time.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

So I had to put up another fight today. I'm exhausted and it super late, and I will be tired tomorrow but I think I did an ok job standing up for myself. 

X decided to start being funny about money again. And I knew it was coming. After internally confirming his intentions after a talk about it, and his evasive non-answers I called him out in a very assertive straight-forward manner. Basically a "yes/no" answer type of question. He refused to answer. We went around in circles for a couple minutes before I started trying a different line of questioning that brought us to a whole new daboccle. Now X only wanted to pay what HE wanted to pay, not what was agreed upon. I felt my BP rise and I started to argue which just turned into him becoming more aggressive with his stance. I broke down, like full, wailing, break my heart crying. I KNEW he would do this to me. He started laughing. You're being weird. Why are you upset. More laughing. I need to see your face right now. He tries to FaceTime me. I hang up. He tries again, I hang up. I cry a little longer and then compose myself. That's it, gotta go into it with zero f*cks given and rational thought, or he has the upper hand. 

I call him back and just let it all out. No screaming or abusive language, he doesn't get to use that against me. Straight up, you're not a nice person, you know I've gone above and beyond for you financially., so many people told me I was crazy to do as much as I did for you .... Plus more. I told him I know I can walk away from this feeling good about myself, I know I will be walking away with Darma, but he's going to be walking away with Karma, because he's doing me very dirty and he knows it. He claimed not to remember talking about certain things (he has selective memory), and so I reply - so does that absolve you of responsibility? So do I get to forget certain parts too and so I'm absolved as well?

He was still evading my direct questions so I had to take it to the next step, which I knew would piss him off but I COULDN'T let him treat me this way without a fight. So I said, if you cannot agree that we need to involve the courts. WHAT?!? 
A neutral third party that can tell is what to pay. 
What are you talking about, you're making a big mess
We have too much emotion wrapped up in this, if we can't do this then I'm going to figure out another way. I'm NOT going to let you do this to me. I'm telling you no. I'm not trying to screw you, I'm not trying to take you for all you've got, I'm not trying to be sneaky, I just want you to pay your fair share. I will show you documentation of everything
But what...but what are you talking about ?
You laughed at me when I cried, you really don't care about my feelings obviously. The way you made me feel when you did that is cruel. Then you tell me you're going to pay xxx only and that's it. The. You're DONE
But I was joking. You know I joke a lot.
You weren't joking you were serious. And then I quote him verbatim 
Ok well I wasn't joking about THIS part, but the other part I was
You left me to pay for something in Nov and told me to deal with it. 
But I paid you part of it back!
Where's the other part? You see you don't just take responsibility I have to ASK and bother you to get anything and I still probably won't get it. I'm tired of it. You can't just decide what you will and will not pay. I want the best for you and I want you to succeed and move up in the world but I will NOT let you use me as a stepping stone. If you want to do that to others, that's your choice but you're not doing it to me.

He was still trying to wrap his head around what I just said. And I knew it. So I continued, you know how your baby-momma went behind your back and sued you for child support?
Yes and I will NEVER forgive her, never be friends with her, I don't care anything for that lady
Ok well that's not what I'm doing to you. I'm being straight up and honest with you. I'm telling you up front my intentions. I'm being real and not doing this behind your back.
That's true.......I hear his voice relax. 

But I don't remember doing anything with x card., he says.
You were not in charge of the finances, I was. If we had no cash and we needed groceries or gas, that's what I would use. Remember the trip to Dallas? We used it there too. It's mutual marriage debt. I didn't go out and use it on anything crazy.
I guess......he still didn't sound convinced 
Ok....if I had gone to the mall and bought $1k of clothes and stuff and a couple of months later we had separated and I was trying to make you pay off the card I could understand that. But that's not what this is. It's a mutual responsibility.
That's true......he sounded more convinced

Ok, so I'm going to pay my half. Are you going to pay yours, or leave me holding the bag?
I will pay
We need to figure out a payment plan , because I'm not discussing this with you anymore. I don't want to explain it again, or ask you for money. Think about it and we will talk this weekend. Let's get his paid off so we can walk away from this clean

I'm not entirely convinced that I talked him into becoming a responsible man, but I gave him fair warning. It's up to him. 
Maybe I'm still doing too much by that conversation, but I'm just doing the best I can. I feel pretty good about what I said. Normally I would just argue and get mad and lose rational thought so that all I could think about was that I was mad, he was being a jerk but I couldn't explain why.

We hang up on better terms. He proceeded to text me thank you, that I have a good heart and I'm a good person. I'm not sure what to make of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IronWine29 (Dec 31, 2013)

struggle said:


> We hang up on better terms. He proceeded to text me thank you, that I have a good heart and I'm a good person. I'm not sure what to make of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's probably shocked that you stood up for yourself.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

That's true. He's usually able to manipulate everything into being my fault but I wouldn't let him, and so far the only way I've learned to maneuver that is I have to mentally get to the place I don't care - and to h*lll with what happened afterward. If he's mad ... Oh well. It's been a learning curve for me because I'm not naturally like that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## slb121 (Aug 2, 2013)

Wow Struggle. I am so glad I found your thread. Your marriage and your husband sound very much like mine. I am slowly trying to put back together my self esteem after being in a relationship for 7 years with someone who is just so emotionally unbalanced, passive aggressive and a narcissist. I never realized what he was doing to me, until it was too late. I was so beaten down and broken 

And your comment "Why the heck am I afraid of someone leaving me because I'm standing up for myself?" REALLY hit home with me. Thank you for your post.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

slb121 said:


> Wow Struggle. I am so glad I found your thread. Your marriage and your husband sound very much like mine. I am slowly trying to put back together my self esteem after being in a relationship for 7 years with someone who is just so emotionally unbalanced, passive aggressive and a narcissist. I never realized what he was doing to me, until it was too late. I was so beaten down and broken
> 
> And your comment "Why the heck am I afraid of someone leaving me because I'm standing up for myself?" REALLY hit home with me. Thank you for your post.


Thanks slb, I'm really glad to hear I'm not alone too. It's hard to explain what it is they do, because it's not necessarily overt. And somehow it usually all ends up being all your fault anyways. In the beginning they set up the relationship for more manipulation down the road. Next thing you know you're in a web of confusion with no end in sight. Combine that with someone who's easily manipulated (like me, a people-pleaser) and it's a no-win situation.

This is a time for us for to do some major soul-searching and healing. I also loss a sense of self in both my past marriages. Someone asked me "what do you want?" And I kind of stuttered like an idiot (or I felt like I did). Because I don't know anymore. Sure I know a couple things I want out of this life, but who am I really? My life revolved around my X for so long I didn't even know what I was fighting for anymore. I was just pissed most of the time towards the end, because at the very least I knew I wasn't happy. And unfortunately, I did not have the bravery to walk away, which is an issue I have within myself.

Someone here recommended I read some co-dependency and manipulation books and I've started my first just this week. So far it has been enlightening. I would suggest the same for you! I've also started just concentrating on myself, and myself only. Hard to do with so many years of conditioning and habit, but even if you falter or have a bad day, pick yourself back up the next day and keep down the path. It gets easier each time. I've found 4 things I enjoy doing, and now I concentrate fully on doing one of those four things. It gives me goals and it gives me confidence that I CAN do whatever I want.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

YOU ARE DOING IT!!! Good for you! 

After 23 years with my ex, he snuck out.... literally. And yes, left me with 5 teens, a grandbaby and a stack of bills. We agreed on an amount for child support ("no need to get the courts involved"). Well, I knew by then not to count on his "word"...which he would give freely. 

He would call once a month and ask if I needed any money. "Yes, I need the amount we agreed on." Sometimes I got it, sometimes I didn't. But, I knew then, and I figured out that I could get by. And I did. I ended up paying his back taxes, because the IRS would only go after me since he was self employed. 

I moved 1100 miles away and never got another penny. LOL, I even left him a stack of stamped/addressed envelopes so he could send me child support. 

My point is... YOU'RE DOING IT!!!! 

You put it out there. Now he will either pay or he won't. YOU get to call the shots, but really only as far as your own life goes. You can just pay your share, and if you feel like you have to pick up his share to save your credit, then do it. Not for him.... for YOU. If it doesn't hurt your credit, let it hang out there in his name. Figure out how much it is worth to YOU to be done with all this mess. If it weren't for this bit of money, you could stop talking to him all together... which is kinda awesome, cuz these kind of guys can't figure out why you wouldn't want to at least talk with them, or reminisce about "the good times".... gag. 

The crappy feelings will pass. The money issues will pass. 

YOU will be alright!!


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

As an update for me, I don't know if anyone's read my past posts, but I have a hard time reading them. I was struggling so much, especially in my own head. I feel like I've come such a long way in a relatively short time. This has truly been a learning experience for me, about ME.

1. I AM a nice person. I don't care how much X told me I changed...I'm a different person.....I tricked him....I used to be so sweet....etc. I am naturally, just nice. I'm actually too nice in certain circumstances, but at least I've realized that I'm not the girl with "problems" my X made me think I was. 

2. I've been going to the gym for almost 2.5 months now. I've dropped over 7% of my body fat and I now have a goal to lose another 12% by the end of April to reach the low-end of my healthy range. I'm focused and I'm ready to win. I CAN do this. This is for ME.

3. I'm socially awkward. Especially around men. Especially around men who like me. I smile, I converse, I connect. At this point I'm seeking friendship. I'm ALONE. I then start bringing out a little bit of my silliness (I like to laugh, and yes I roll with some nerd humor every once in awhile) and it sometimes comes out TOTALLY awkward. I have a Jess "New Girl" moment. I try to talk myself out of it, but I usually just make it worse. Thank God most men either just laugh it off, or act like it never happened LOL. 

I am, however, in a no-man (no dating/relationships) phase. Once my divorce is filed and done I want to cleanse. I am terrified of being asked out right now, because of the people-pleaser that I am, I hate to hurt feelings. I actually was able to successfully back out of one Saturday night invite pretty gracefully. Luckily it was asked in such a way that I didn't have to reject HIM just the invite. But I know a direct "ask" will come up eventually. 

There is a trainer at the gym who is really crushing on me, and I enjoy his friendship and the fact that I have someone to look forward to seeing when I go, but it's really not a great time to make that move, because I'm saying no to everyone. Just the fact that he's kind of mentioned his attraction, put me a little out of sorts. I feel even more awkward around him really, not uncomfortable per say, but I'm trying to be the same friendly, playful self however I'm afraid it comes across as flirting now. Ugh...I just suck at this. SUCK. I've got zero game. I don't know how to play it cool. I'm just preparing myself to be honest with him, IF the time comes. Honesty is a big trait of mine, even if it pains me to be so. I've reconnected with an old friend the past month, and he just reminded me yesterday about what a terrible liar I am . My emotion is all in my face. He is also starting to call me a lot, but he is firmly in the friend zone with me so I hope he feels the same about me.

I'm also afraid at this point of men being attracted to me for my looks, or attracted to me because they're another narcissist who sees me an easy target. I've had 2, I've paid my dues, no more please. Men being attracted to me physically is not an issue, but it's those who care about WHO I am that are hard to find. I'm not saying I'm Megan Fox (at least not yet haha), but I just feel suspicious of everyone right now. When anyone shows interest I start thinking: sure you like how I look, but would you like me in 3 or 4 years? That's when the voices from my X's start swirling around in my head, making me doubt my value as a person and as a mate or wife. Maybe I'm a sh*tty wife, I shouldn't disappoint someone else..... I seriously mentally go down that road. And that's a problem. I also connect being married to someone as having to 'take care of' someone. Both my X's felt like they should be taken care of. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. It also makes me doubt my marriage 'quality' because I don't even want to take care of a goldfish. I am like a B- cook too.....suck. But I have nice boobs? Lol...ugh... See there we go with awkward jokes again.....



4. My X is so wrapped up in his own world, that I just see him as crazy now. Our contact has dropped considerably, which is a good thing. He has not changed a SINGLE THING. He still sees me as the one not doing anything to 'save' the marriage. I see no saving it, but I don't think he believes I would let such a great catch like him 'get away'. He doesn't want to see a MC, he wants me to be the one to do something about fixing the marriage and he will 'follow'. Right. He's mentioned wanting to break the face of anyone that might ask me out, and it's just weird considering what a horrible wife I was, worth separating from, why he would care at this point. 

We didn't see each other for almost a month, and when we saw each other again (he had to bring me some of my property) he saw me and was like, wow, you look great. (let's not forget the passive aggressive comment, "oh now that we're not together you like the gym huh?" Which I just laughed off like it was a funny joke while thinking - yeah b*tch). He got so turned on he starting hinting about the bedroom. Talking about my hair, my skin.... I reminded him that we are separated, I am totally independent of him, and he's not getting the milk for free. He then started talking about the possibility of me moving in with him in his apartment. This was NEW. He's never even invited me to his apartment. I'm always suspicious of him so I pretty much knew it was a manipulative move to get my hopes up and then he was hoping his prize was going to be some nookie. FALSE. I just had to talk about a marriage counselor and he lost the will to try harder. 

5. One of the top things that "go" with me when I'm not happy in a relationship is my sex drive. The first thing that comes back when I'm free of such relationship, my sex drive. Of course coming off B/C helps that as well, but, I'm not a prude and I don't have issues. My sex drive is directly connected to my emotions. Never knew this, but now I do, and it makes complete sense.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

SunnyT said:


> I moved 1100 miles away and never got another penny. LOL, I even left him a stack of stamped/addressed envelopes so he could send me child support.
> 
> My point is... YOU'RE DOING IT!!!!
> 
> ...



Oh yeah...they freely say that they will do this and they will do that...and then......nothing. NOTHING.

It's true, I've considered the possibility of having to pay the stuff off myself, and if I have to I will. It would suck, but I did put myself in the position of having everything in my name, again. But I'm walking away with the better credit because of it.

Thanks for the words of encouragement


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

When you are ready to date, do just that....date. No moving in with someone until you know them 2 years is what I have heard. By then you have seen them in enough situations to judge whether they are the real deal or just another wolf in sheep's clothing. Glad to hear you got away, and kept your sanity.


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## Pictureless (May 21, 2013)

FWIW, our MC called my STBXW a people pleaser. He and I both told her repeatedly that nobody can please everybody all the time. The MC said she needed to communicate her needs and wants better and allow other people to help her when she was struggling.


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## slb121 (Aug 2, 2013)

struggle said:


> Thanks slb, I'm really glad to hear I'm not alone too. It's hard to explain what it is they do, because it's not necessarily overt. And somehow it usually all ends up being all your fault anyways. In the beginning they set up the relationship for more manipulation down the road. Next thing you know you're in a web of confusion with no end in sight. Combine that with someone who's easily manipulated (like me, a people-pleaser) and it's a no-win situation.
> 
> This is a time for us for to do some major soul-searching and healing. I also loss a sense of self in both my past marriages. Someone asked me "what do you want?" And I kind of stuttered like an idiot (or I felt like I did). Because I don't know anymore. Sure I know a couple things I want out of this life, but who am I really? My life revolved around my X for so long I didn't even know what I was fighting for anymore. I was just pissed most of the time towards the end, because at the very least I knew I wasn't happy. And unfortunately, I did not have the bravery to walk away, which is an issue I have within myself.
> 
> Someone here recommended I read some co-dependency and manipulation books and I've started my first just this week. So far it has been enlightening. I would suggest the same for you! I've also started just concentrating on myself, and myself only. Hard to do with so many years of conditioning and habit, but even if you falter or have a bad day, pick yourself back up the next day and keep down the path. It gets easier each time. I've found 4 things I enjoy doing, and now I concentrate fully on doing one of those four things. It gives me goals and it gives me confidence that I CAN do whatever I want.





I just ordered Co-Dependent No More and look forward to reading it. I am a people pleaser too - always have been. I guess I was an easy target for my husband, especially as it was obvious I was completely enamored with him from the day we met. He loved the way he looked in my eyes. Not to mention he is 10 years older than me so I was definitely a great supply for his ego as I am a younger, attractive wife. I tend to think I was naive and when he took charge or started controlling things, as I just summed it up to him being much older than I am and knew how to handle things appropriately. However, I did not realize what he was truly doing. He manipulated me in every way possible. He was SO charming, lovely, and kind in the beginning. Put me on such a pedestal that I thought I truly had met the most wonderful man on Earth. After we got married, it all changed. Every fight was my fault. Somedays it was all verbal abuse and other days I got silent treatments for no apparent reason. It tore me apart that my husband went from adoring me to completely devaluing me in the snap of his fingers. 

His decision to leave me since has me baffled. I was never given a good explanation as to why he wanted to separate. I know people continue to say on TAM that if a spouse leaves, there is a 3rd party, but I know my husband and he is just too selfish to put in the work right now to be an attentive boyfriend to someone else. I read something the other day that narcissists bounce back and forth of needing others and needing to be left alone. That describes the entire 4 years of marriage. 

It is easy for people on the outside to say "good riddance" and "you are better off without him". However, I cannot fall out of love that quickly.  I am doing my best being separated from him and trying to move on with my life. Every day, I just pick up a piece of my self esteem and put it back inside me. 

I wish you all the best in doing the same!


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

gigi888 said:


> Struggle - Your marriage sounded just like mine. The only difference is how our STBXH ended it. Yours walked away *while mine found a replacement before he was willing to walk away*. I did not even realize what a horrible life I was living until he left. It was like a fog was lifted.
> 
> Please read about codependency and you will find out why you stayed for this long.


This is all my story....


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

slb121 said:


> I just ordered Co-Dependent No More and look forward to reading it. I am a people pleaser too - always have been. I guess I was an easy target for my husband, especially as it was obvious I was completely enamored with him from the day we met. He loved the way he looked in my eyes. Not to mention he is 10 years older than me so I was definitely a great supply for his ego as I am a younger, attractive wife. I tend to think I was naive and when he took charge or started controlling things, as I just summed it up to him being much older than I am and knew how to handle things appropriately. However, I did not realize what he was truly doing. He manipulated me in every way possible. He was SO charming, lovely, and kind in the beginning. Put me on such a pedestal that I thought I truly had met the most wonderful man on Earth. After we got married, it all changed. Every fight was my fault. Somedays it was all verbal abuse and other days I got silent treatments for no apparent reason. It tore me apart that my husband went from adoring me to completely devaluing me in the snap of his fingers.
> 
> His decision to leave me since has me baffled. I was never given a good explanation as to why he wanted to separate. I know people continue to say on TAM that if a spouse leaves, there is a 3rd party, but I know my husband and he is just too selfish to put in the work right now to be an attentive boyfriend to someone else. I read something the other day that narcissists bounce back and forth of needing others and needing to be left alone. That describes the entire 4 years of marriage.
> 
> ...


Great that you ordered that book! A lot of parallels with yours and mine. My X was also very enamored with me in the beginning as well, and I with him. He made me feel like I was the most amazing women he's ever met. 

I also agree with you on "finding someone else." Of course we can't know 100% because we're not with them 24/7, however I think women have a pretty good sense of when the man has strayed. My 1st XH WAS a cheater, and this one is just a horse of a different color. If you're not complying with their wishes, they feel the need to "teach you a lesson", and here we are. But they're still expecting us to come crawling back.

You are better off, but it's a long hard road to un-hook all those hooks they have in us. Some days I feel strong, and others I feel sad lonely and just want my H back, the one I fell in love with. Just last night I was feeling pretty lonely and I was SO tempted to call him just to talk. I was literally was picking up the phone and putting it back down. Just a month ago I would've gave in. But I didn't this time. It's the small things. Some stay in the mourning stage longer than others I think, and that's ok. Just keep trying to work towards a stronger and independent you


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

I just had to update that I also had to stand up to my mom today. After realizing that the relationship I had with my mom growing up is being re-lived in my marriages, I realized I have to learn to stand up to her too, or at least feel OK having to stand up to her.

A little bit about our relationship is on the first page of this thread. She will practically wrestle you to the ground (metaphorically speaking) to be right. I remember once she went as far as quoting the Bible to 'respect your parents' when I wouldn't agree with her in an argument. I hate that feeling I get when she gets that way. The feeling in my heart, my mind and my stomach it's all too familiar. Everyone's best policy with my mom is just to give in, enough pressure, and everyone caves. Even if it's just a difference of opinion, you're not allowed to have a different opinion than her. I've been the only one of my three siblings that have fought back, but I get no backup. 

Another situation came up today. And lets just say I said my piece WITHOUT fear. I just came out of a manipulative marriage, and I came out the other side ok. I sure as h*ll am not repeating the relationship with someone else. Including my mom. I didn't have the pit in the bottom of my stomach doing it. I literally don't care if she's mad at me about it or not. I think a stronger me is starting to come out of all this, I feel really empowered at the moment......


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## TheSecretGarden14 (Feb 7, 2014)

My mom and I have a weird relationship that I believe has transferred to my marriage, too. She is codependent on my brother. He was her first and she was a single mom. She does everything she can to make him happy and secure. In doing so not only did she put herself on the backburner, but me too. Growing up he got the best of everything. I got handmedowns and thrift store purchased gifts. I asked my mom about it once and her repsonse was that he would leave the house first and she thought she could make it up to me. We left home within month of each other.
I was codependent on her. I tried my best to make her happy with me. I got all As in school. I was a gifted art student. I never got in trouble. All that jazz. She never said she was proud of me or happy for me. So, I cracked. I started failing, I quit school, and ran away with my boyfriend. I did get my GED and then some years later went to college.
Now, I realize, I do this in my marriage. I try and try and try to make him happy, but when I get no feedback, I just stop trying. Its like I want them to acknowledge all I am doing and tell me how happy it makes them. Then, when they don't, I figure what's the point.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Survived Valentine's Day and still emotionally in a good place. I'm loving my independence, I'm loving this self-discovering journey. It was so hard just a few months ago....in the beginning, I was so focused on my X. I'm now feeling my attention shifting to me. 

I expect plenty more rough spots, but I've been getting rid of old habits, learning to NOT need to call him, harsh reminders of why our marriage failed, not allowing him to touch "inside" me with his emotional manipulations where it hurts most, becoming less isolated, smiling more, and realizing that everyone around me has gone through their own journeys. I really feel like TAM has helped me realize I'm not alone, and it's ok to talk about anything and everything in regards to my failed marriage, my feelings and thoughts, and my failures and successes. It's actually because of TAM that I put two and two together with my marriages having congruence to my relationship with my mom. At first I denied it, until I gave my brain time to process, and then I remembered. It was something I must have just pushed away into the recesses of my brain. It makes more sense why I am the way I am, and I feel a little bit more in control.

Yesterday I was asked out, twice. The first guy kind of threw it out there because we were talking about local restaurants and he mentioned, "oh well maybe I should take you." And I just laughed it off and kept talking like I didn't take him seriously. The second guy just straight up said, "let me take you out to eat" well because we were talking about Mexican food. I swear I turned beet red. It was so embarassing. I stuttered and told him I appreciate it but I just went through a bad breakup and I'm not really dating. He insisted, and I didn't know what to say. He insisted again, it's just two friends, what's wrong with you eating here/me eating there, no expectations.....the words are frozen in my brain.....(say it....no thank you....say it).......Thank God I was waiting for a friend and he happened to show up and interrupt the conversation. We said our goodbyes and I made a hasty exit with my friend. I'm telling you...I suck at this. Ugh....


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## IronWine29 (Dec 31, 2013)

struggle said:


> I suck at this. Ugh....


Sounds like you did OK to me.

Practice your rejection lines. Write them down. Rehearse them. Be pleasant while maintaining *your* boundaries.

I think you'll be needing them (the turn down lines) again!


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

I need to remember to keep posting here....or somewhere. It's hard to remember the emotions I've had through this experience. With time my brain starts to drop pieces away. Kind of like what Walt Whitman said, "I remember we were together. I forget the rest." I remember very small pieces of my first marriage. 

I'm now trying to decide on a counseler/psychologist and it's hard. I'm having trouble deciding. 

Basically, my X and I are on good terms again (since our last little spat). Not getting back together type thing, but friendly. Through all this my emotional attachment has been broken down to tattered pieces. I could file for divorce with some minimal weeping and anxiety. Not saying I could throw a divorce party, but my emotional ties were pretty strong with my H. I've had to let them go or risk getting sick from anger/stress/sadness/etc. I was really really sick after my first divorce, I wouldn't let it happen again. 

We had a conversation about the status of our marriage. I asked him if he wanted to try and work out our marriage....or not. It was a matter of fact question, i was ready for it to go either way. His answer was that he wanted to, but didn't know how to go about doing it. He's never been in this situation before. We are married but living seperately, and neither one of us are really demanding anything from the other (except money). So this situation is pretty typical of him, he's waiting for ME to do something. So I said, marriage counseling. I knew he wouldn't like that answer but those are my terms to start. It's a clear direction, and requires action on his part. I told him marriage counseling or I think we will end up back where we were before. He basically said ok, without making any plans himself, still waiting for me to tell him what to do.

I slept on it, and the next day I told him that I am calling my insurance company to get the info. I don't require pre-certification for mental health, but he might. So he needs to call his insurance company. We will get a counseler that will take both insurances, and I want to start off seperate. I want to go by myself, and I want him to go by himself...to start. And then however many sessions from there we can do marriage counseling. But I don't want to be afraid to say something to the counseler because H is there, or the same for my H because I'm there. I think we both need to work out our own seperate feelings first. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but my gut was telling me solo sessions would be good to start.... I told H to call his insurance and set up his own appointments, and I will give him the name of the counseler. I told him he has to set it all up, because I'm not doing it (the old me would've done it all just to "get it done"). I've learned that with manipulative-type personalities ignore what they say and pay attention to what they do. If he really wants to fix this, he will start seeing the counseler, if not...I guess that's my answer. Even if he does, I still don't know if it will work.

I'm trying to decide on a male or female. I don't care too much. I just want someone that knows what the heck they are doing. But I'm seriously considering male because I'm thinking H might respect him more. When we had our female counseler for our "sex therapy" he seemed to want to bullsh*t her, and then he pretty much decided she wasn't worth going back and seeing after 1 session. I wish there was a way I could tell if they have good "reviews". I suppose I just have to try them out and see if we "click"? Whether or not H does it, I'm still doing it for myself.

Besides that...Single life has been pretty good to me so far. I have my own space, everything is mine and I can be at peace. I work, I've been going to the gym and making progress, and that's pretty much all the time I have. I'm about to make another thread about what guys like, because I'm noticing some things in my new single status. But I'm still totally avoiding the dating game, I'm not interested in bringing in a third party until my marriage is officially over, so I have my standard line of "I'm not dating right now". It works. There's a guy that's been really crushing on me, and he almost got the courage to ask me, but in my uncomfortable state when he said "I have a serious question to ask you.." I promptly laughed, and couldn't stop. I'm making a joke, probably not the wittiest thing but that was my reaction. Now if he really wanted to "win me", he would've joked back and made light of the situation. But he ended up doing the whole "I'm fake mad at you now because you're laughing when I'm trying to be serious". Ehhhhhh....wrong! Now I know for sure not only I'm going to tell him no, but he is in permanent friend zone. Literally a whole new world....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteveK (Mar 15, 2014)

ICLH said:


> Very similar treatment going on in my situation as well except I found out right before moving out that he was seeing someone as well. I started to going to IC a couple weeks ago. I told her that I wanted to work on my boundaries. I wanted to make sure I didn't make the same mistakes twice and reinvent myself. I told her I don't want to allow people to abuse me anymore. She told me that the reason I let this happen is because there are emotional issues that I never dealt with in my past that are causing me to get into these emotionally damaging relationships now. So now I need to deal with past issues that I stuffed down inside of me, get passed them, and than work on where to go from there. Get into IC. Do it for you. It helps.


I wish my wife who left me and is living with her AP would read this and on codependency. She is just like all of you. Yes, I had my issues but I deeply loved her and never would hurt otr harm her. The guy she found is a charlatan who has had many affairs in the past with married woman, she thinks shes different because he finally left his wife for her.


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