# Trying to do the stats on this...



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

OM: Divorced once, had an affair with a married woman, then had a 3-year affair during his marriage, then affair with my XW

XW: Divorced twice, cheated on H1 twice, cheated on H2 (me) once during LD relationship and, another single time with a woman, and then 8 month affair with OM. 

They are now together. Both are European, educated, under 40 years old. Had a child together (yikes) less than 2 years after our separation.

Claim they are deeply in love. 

But seriously, what are the odds this relationship makes it 5, 10 or 20 years? 50% failure rate to start, plus the divorces and serial cheating, cake-eating, limbos, blame shifting, Plan B'ing. Does an intense sexual beginning and shared interest of playing live music (yeah, no cheaters in that crowd) spell doom?

Seems like you'd have to put some real thought and work into that relationship to avoid something "better or different" coming along. 

It's amazing to me that the history of cheating could actually be part of their "bond".


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

staystrong said:


> OM: Divorced once, had an affair with a married woman, then had a 3-year affair during his marriage, then affair with my XW
> 
> XW: Divorced twice, cheated on H1 twice, cheated on H2 (me) once during LD relationship and, another single time with a woman, and then 8 month affair with OM.
> 
> ...


Serious question: are they both French?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Oui.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

_Zoot allures!!!_

It's obvious then - the French have always very relaxed attitude to infidelity:
The French relaxed about infidelity? You're pulling my (frog) leg | Mail Online


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, my husband is from France, and is not a cheater at all. Does not have a relaxed attitude toward it, either. But he is from the countryside, though, not Paris, so maybe that makes a difference.

I think maybe they just understand each other, staystrong. My sister was once with a guy that I think she should have stayed with. They were both so messed up. It seemed like an equal relationship.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

jld said:


> Well, my husband is from France, and is not a cheater at all. Does not have a relaxed attitude toward it, either. But he is from the countryside, though, not Paris, so maybe that makes a difference.
> 
> I think maybe they just understand each other, staystrong. My sister was once with a guy that I think she should have stayed with. They were both so messed up. It seemed like an equal relationship.


Ask him if its true that Parisians look down on their fellow countryside Frenchers as 'peasants'...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Ask him if its true that Parisians look down on their fellow countryside Frenchers as 'peasants'...


I am sure they do. And dh's family is definitely peasant. And my American family is, too. Or at least we all started that way. My brother made a fortune in technology, so I guess he is nouveau riche.

Dh will be here shortly. He is Duguesclin.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> OM: Divorced once, had an affair with a married woman, then had a 3-year affair during his marriage, then affair with my XW
> 
> XW: Divorced twice, *cheated on H1 twice*, cheated on H2 (me) once during LD relationship and, another single time with a woman, and then 8 month affair with OM.
> 
> ...


How long were you married to her, staystrong?


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Yeah, if you read the article, the "acceptance" of infidelity is overhyped. Maybe it's treated differently in busy cosmo Paris and definitely for celebrities and politicians, but families are still shredded and people are still offended. I think the article said 210 people are killed each year in France by ex-lovers. 

Perhaps you are right, jld, but it's just so simplistic, isn't it? I'm sure they think it is fate.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

davecarter said:


> Ask him if its true that Parisians look down on their fellow countryside Frenchers as 'peasants'...


Yes it is true that many Parisians look down on their fellow countryside French as peasant.

It is also true that French have the reputation to be have a lot of infidelities. I must say, when I look at our French President, I can understand why.

Now, obviously knowing quite a lot of French couples as well as a lot of American couples, I do not notice a striking difference. The divorce rate is about the same. I work and socialize in the same type of crowd in both countries and I see very committed people in both countries.

So, as a whole, I do not agree with the reputation that the French have, like, as a whole, I do not agree the European view on American women being promiscuous.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Yeah, if you read the article, the "acceptance" of infidelity is overhyped. Maybe it's treated differently in busy cosmo Paris and definitely for celebrities and politicians, but families are still shredded and people are still offended. I think the article said 210 people are killed each year in France by ex-lovers.
> 
> Perhaps you are right, jld, but it's just so simplistic, isn't it? I'm sure they think it is fate.


Think yourself lucky you didn't marry an Italian woman, SS...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Philat said:


> How long were you married to her, staystrong?


6 years married, almost 8 together. 

Many terrific moments that are now tainted. 

Only today for the first day in a long time did my "hate and pain shield" come down and I started to think about her fondly in some way. It was actually worse, remembering her and I in bed together. It hurt. I thought I was detached.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

davecarter said:


> Think yourself lucky you didn't marry an Italian woman, SS...


Good point. 

I know an Italian guy here and he told me he told his wife that he would kill her if she ever cheated on him. He was very serious. He said he would rather spend his life and jail with the justice of knowing she was dead than to be humiliated that way and have her be walking around. I guess that's one way to deter cheating.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

staystrong said:


> 6 years married, almost 8 together.
> 
> Many terrific moments that are now tainted.
> 
> Only today for the first day in a long time did my "hate and pain shield" come down and I started to think about her fondly in some way. It was actually worse, remembering her and I in bed together. It hurt. I thought I was detached.


So you have to factor those 8 years into the stats, since you were one of the people she cheated on H1 with, correct?


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

davecarter said:


> _Zoot allures!!!_
> 
> It's obvious then - the French have always very relaxed attitude to infidelity:
> The French relaxed about infidelity? You're pulling my (frog) leg | Mail Online


We should not confuse accepting politicians affairs with having strong feelings about privacy matters. 

French people are as repulsed by Presidents affairs as the Americans. But, unlike the Americans they put higher standard on privacy. It is no ones business to know the private life of someone else. This is how the French are, and actually most of the Europeans. Ask Google!


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

staystrong said:


> Good point.
> 
> I know an Italian guy here and he told me he told his wife that he would kill her if she ever cheated on him. He was very serious. He said he would rather spend his life and jail with the justice of knowing she was dead than to be humiliated that way and have her be walking around. I guess that's one way to deter cheating.


But that's how Italian women have always been bought up: treat them mean, keep them keen an all that...

Why do you think ancient Rome fell? Romans started relaxing and treating their women 'nice'.
So what did they do? Started f*cking around with the Alpha barbarians like Gauls and Vandals.
100 years later, Rome crumbles...

Italy has bred a 'beta-ized' branch of European men ever since.



(Machiavellian will concur with this... lol )


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

@Philat Yep, it's factored in. I didn't include durations. 

I know, I got mixed up with the wrong broad. I guess I though people changed once they have kids. Especially women. I guess I put mothers up on a pedestal. Or maybe I put parents up on a pedestal. For me, once you have kids your priorities shift. Personally, I think most cheating parents are fundamentally failures as parents though I know that's a fiery topic on this board.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Italy has bred a 'beta-ized' branch of European men ever since.


The only children that live with their mothers all their lives . . . Or the Americans that insist that men and women are exactly alike, and must be treated exactly the same . . .


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> So, as a whole, I do not agree with the reputation that the French have, like, as a whole, I do not agree the European view on American women being promiscuous.


I don't know. I think there's more of a "girls gone wild" culture in the US than there is in France. There's definitely a different party atmosphere in the US and France. The French don't have frat parties, wet t-shirt contests, etc.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

staystrong said:


> @Philat Yep, it's factored in. I didn't include durations.
> 
> I know, I got mixed up with the wrong broad. I guess I though people changed once they have kids. Especially women. I guess I put mothers up on a pedestal. Or maybe I put parents up on a pedestal. For me, once you have kids your priorities shift. Personally, I think most cheating parents are fundamentally failures as parents though I know that's a fiery topic on this board.


The pedestalization of either party in a relationship spells doom. It's a huge power imbalance and the one looking up is the one who's gonna lose out.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

jld said:


> The only children that live with their mothers all their lives . . . Or the Americans that insist that men and women are exactly alike, and must be treated exactly the same . . .


I don't think people are suggesting men's and women's needs are different, I think that people debated the idea that women cheat primarily for emotional reasons. Women also have a tendency to downplay the role of sex even if the frequency is high. Him making her feel like a woman is sexual and emotional thing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

staystrong said:


> I don't think people are suggesting men's and women's needs are different, I think that people debated the idea that women cheat primarily for emotional reasons. Women also have a tendency to downplay the role of sex even if the frequency is high. Him making her feel like a woman is sexual and emotional thing.


You think the research in that article is flawed?

Well, just speaking for myself, a 50/50 relationship would do nothing for my libido. Maybe it's just me.


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

Dug, obviously know nothing of the differences between the French and Americans. You say they are just as repulsed about their cheating president as Americans are? So, so not true!!

The French are IN FACT much more tolerant of indiscretions than are Americans as a whole. I was married to a French girl for years, having spent many summers there.

And French aside, Europeans in general are more tolerant of affairs and more likely to indulge in them than Americans, but that is changing as Americans continue to shed their Puritan ethics.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

WalterWhite said:


> Dug, obviously know nothing of the differences between the French and Americans. You say they are just as repulsed about their cheating president as Americans are? So, so not true!!
> 
> The French are IN FACT much more tolerant of indiscretions than are Americans as a whole. I was married to a French girl for years, having spent many summers there.
> 
> And French aside, Europeans in general are more tolerant of affairs and more likely to indulge in them than Americans, but that is changing as Americans continue to shed their Puritan ethics.


If you want to talk about credentials, we can. I left France when I was 22. I am 47 now. 

I was there a couple of weeks ago to pickup my kids who had spent 9 weeks with my parents.

I come from a lower middle class family. My parents never had an affair. One uncle had an affair with his wife's sister who was 15 at the time, so he spent 3 years in jail. No other relatives have had affairs, that I know of. I am not aware of any of my college friends doing this, either.

I know some of my French colleagues had affairs, like I know some of my American colleagues had some.

When I talk at the dinner table with my colleagues, college friends or family they express the same strong dismay at Hollande, Sarkozy, Chirac, etc... as American do about Clinton's sexual adventures. But in the same breath they would say it is none of our business. Private matters are sacred. 

I also can say there is hypocrisy in the private business, as the Enquirer's French equivalent is as popular in France as it is in the US, and is at the same spot in the grocery store!


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

staystrong said:


> I don't know. I think there's more of a "girls gone wild" culture in the US than there is in France. There's definitely a different party atmosphere in the US and France. The French don't have frat parties, wet t-shirt contests, etc.


I do not understand American guys. They get exited about a wet T-Shirt contest. When I grew up In France, you could see women bare breast on TV every day, whether if it was a shampoo or a coffee ad. However, I must admit I do not see that any more on French TV. 

You can still go to the beach and see topless women. Really, no one gets exited about this, except politicians or clergy when there is a Femen protest.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

helolover said:


> The pedestalization of either party in a relationship spells doom. It's a huge power imbalance and the one looking up is the one who's gonna lose out.


I guess it's how you define pedestal. 

I was simply in love with being a father and having a wife and family. I did think my wife was an excellent mother, and told her that (along with I love you's and You're Beautiful's) because THAT"S HOW I FELT. I did not think she was better than me or that I didn't deserve her. Apparently she started to think shortly prior to meeting OM. I thought I had a true partner, not someone who was going to jump ship at the slightest hint of "adversity". 

I guess what I'm getting at is I always looked down at people who split up families. Still do. See them as failures. There should be no 'rational' reason that a couple can't solve their differences or meet each other's needs. What I discovered is that what seems like light dissatisfaction can be a cover for major resentment. And "I would never do that to my husband" can be eroded by the right OM.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

staystrong said:


> What I discovered is that what seems like light dissatisfaction can be a cover for major resentment. And "I would never do that to my husband" can be eroded by the right OM.


There is really no substitute for thorough communication. Transparency, really. Even the "right" OM is not going to get far if the wife is telling her husband all her feelings, especially her attractions, and any unusual actions by men in her life.


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## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

staystrong said:


> But seriously, what are the odds this relationship makes it 5, 10 or 20 years?
> 
> The latest stats from scientific journals (wish I had one to reference off hand) is less than a 3% chance. Its 2.79% chance that long term success will occur if the relationship is started as an affair.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

jld said:


> There is really no substitute for thorough communication. Transparency, really. Even the "right" OM is not going to get far if the wife is telling her husband all her feelings, especially her attractions, and any unusual actions by men in her life.


Some people are immoral, some are amoral. Some have personality disorders. Some leave their kids without much thought at all. Some people are just dogs. Lots of people fool you into thinking they're normal folks with a conscience. Being fooled by one of these defectives isn't the fault of the people they fool.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Chaparral said:


> Some people are immoral, some are amoral. Some have personality disorders. Some leave their kids without much thought at all. Some people are just dogs. Lots of people fool you into thinking they're normal folks with a conscience. Being fooled by one of these defectives isn't the fault of the people they fool.


...though as we get older, we should get better in detecting them.


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