# Why Cheat? Why not be honest and open?



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Cheating makes no sense.

A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things. 

Deception destroys happiness. Honesty creates happiness.

There is no good argument for cheating when there exists the alternative of being open and honest.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

This is thinking logically and rationally. Those are two things that it took me a year to understand that have no place in the mind of a cheater.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

"All Things" ??
OK I'll start, and you can say stop when We get to something that would be a deal breaker.
One morning this week I forgot to brush my teeth.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

Cheating makes no sense to me either, it is just a selfish behavior.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

"Honey, I want to have sex with X. Is that okay?"
"NO!"

Hmm. Thinks, "_Maybe it would be easier to ask forgiveness than permission - if I'm caught. And if I'm not caught, I'll be happy!_."

Logic doesn't work when it comes to desires, and especially if you and your spouse do not have the same views on certain things. I am all for honesty, but it won't necessarily lead to happiness! Often, quite the contrary.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

stillfightingforus said:


> This is thinking logically and rationally. Those are two things that it took me a year to understand that have no place in the mind of a cheater.


I totally get what you are saying. 

However, there is a way out even for cheaters if they have the tenacity to see the opening in the tunnel of their thinking. If there is even a bit of an opening, there can be a breakthrough. 

What my husband and I have experienced is a freedom that we never thought possible. Opening up to each other with raw, untethered honesty is the way out. Both of us have experienced the deception of cheating. The problem was the deception. The solution was honesty and openness. Freedom, at last. Freedom to exist. Freedom to be. Freedom to love unconditionally.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> "All Things" ??
> OK I'll start, and you can say stop when We get to something that would be a deal breaker.
> One morning this week I forgot to brush my teeth.


haha! Now, that one is definitely a dealbreaker! lol


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> "Honey, I want to have sex with X. Is that okay?"
> "NO!"
> 
> Hmm. Thinks, "_Maybe it would be easier to ask forgiveness than permission - if I'm caught. And if I'm not caught, I'll be happy!_."
> ...


My husband and I have different levels of sexual desires. Once we opened up to each other about this, we were able to understand each other. Keeping secrets certainly lead to unhappiness and a disconnectedness that just fed the wolf of cheating thoughts. 

Being able to say, "I just saw a hot body on the computer and now I'm horny...wanna F?" can lead to an answer of "Sure!" or "Not right now, but can you give me a couple of hours?" 

If the answer to the last question is no, then "Actually, I'm pretty hot right now, I think I'll masturbate..." 

"Oh, okay, well, just be ready to get your bones jumped later tonight, you sexy beast..."

I mean, why not? Could a conversation like that happen?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> "Honey, I want to have sex with X. Is that okay?"
> "NO!"
> 
> Hmm. Thinks, "_Maybe it would be easier to ask forgiveness than permission - if I'm caught. And if I'm not caught, I'll be happy!_."
> ...


"Honey, I want to have sex with X. Is that okay?"

"Sure, can I have her husband?"


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> "Honey, I want to have sex with X. Is that okay?"
> 
> "Sure, can I have her husband?"


Or, of course, any number of other avenues of conversation...

"Oh, tell me about that..."

Or,

"Ah, she turns you one, eh?"

Or, 

"Hmmmm, that might make me feel insecure about us. Would you be falling in love with her or would it just be sex?"

Etc.

Better than cheating.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Cheaters don't think that way. Instead, to them, the better question is - Why not Cheat?

Why do they think like that? You can label it a dozen ways, but it all boils town to the lack of moral integrity; just like in any other heinous act that a person does.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

happiness27 said:


> However, there is a way out even for cheaters if they have the tenacity to see the opening in the tunnel of their thinking. If there is even a bit of an opening, there can be a breakthrough.


What exactly does this mean? Could you clarify/expand on this?


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## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

The thing with honesty is 
that you have to trust your spouse enough to know that you are safe with him/her.
That means that you have to let your spouse know about all your complexes, inferiorities, personal opinions about certain subjects.
In other words you're abandoning yourself to someone else and hope that other person be the same crystal clear with you.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Because for most it's not about the primary relationship. it's about wanting 2 relationships. 2 is better then 1. 

You are thinking like they do this to solve a problem or and emptiness which is what lots of people who push for R want you to think about it. Emptiness may have something to do with it, but news flash everyone in the world feels that emptiness. Emptiness is the default human condition, not happiness. This line of thinking, that the affair was a call for help is mostly dishonest, however thinking this way makes it easier to R because it's hard to get over the fact that they just ****ed you over, if you really actually believe why they ****ed you over. 

Here is the truth, they do it (the lying, the betrayal of everyone in their life, the dirty sex) because it's feels good. I'm sure having an affair feels really good, and fun while you are doing it. It's probably like falling in love but also like a super secret that only your lover and you share. It's an extreme adventure with dirty sex too. You are also feeling naughty and throwing caution to the wind.Not much different then doing cocaine I suspect. That feels great too I hear. Afterwords when you have the fallout I'm sure for lots it sucks. 

Still there is more, for men it means you can get a women to betray another man, the one she gave her life to. She gives you her body which makes you feel superior. For women it means he desires you enough to give up his family, you feel like the most desired women on earh. Our nature is to want those things in a healthy way, but affairs are like those things on steroids because your partner is giving you those things at the expense of the primary person in their life. What an ego rush that must be. 

I'm also sure for most they think back about it like they do a bender, I can't believe how crazy it was, but it sure was fun while I was doing it. Sure they say they feel bad, and they probably do when they look at the pain in the eyes of their loved one. But I'm also sure part of them cherishes the memories. 

Yeah that sucks but if your spouse has an affair that is really who you are married to. Sure you want to stay married to that piece of garbage? Better to see the truth. If you don't believe me go find a board where people in affairs post. About 1 in 100 post about the guilt, mostly they post about how thrilling it all it. No one in an affair is a poor soul who doesn't know what they are doing and are desperately trying to fix their marriage. If you are that stupid to think ****ing someone other then your spouse is going to fix your problems or your marriage then you would be too dumb to ever be married in the first place. Nah, at best they are not thinking about their marriage at all. Um but that makes no sense because they are thinking of it enough to make sure they get their story straight. They don't care about the marriage, they don't care about their spouse. Not enough to sacrifice how good their lover makes them feel. 

The people who tell you affairs work like how it relates to your question are being naive at best, disingenuous at worst. People have affairs because they want to and they can, that is just the simple and most accurate description of their motive. I know it hurts worse but it's better to work from the truth, in the end it will be easier. You are posting your question because you can make no sense of what you wrote here, what you believe is the thinking in affairs. You can make no sense of it because it's not a logical explanation. Go read any R board and you will see this question posted over and over, some even post it for years. Again they post it because they are trying to convince themselves that what they are posting makes sense when deep down they know it doesn't. It's a logical disconnect, it a dissonance that is only going to drive you crazy. However if you start to believe the truth in what I just wrote you will start your path to healing. It make the whole thing a thousand times worse, and is very hard to take. It may not save your marriage but it will save your sanity.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...



I agree. But it does take two! I'm not a cheater, but I "get" why cheaters cheat. I was married for a few years when she palpably pulled away from me. That happened at a difficult time, financially, when I was working long hours. She seemed to adapt her schedule any time mine changed, so that she was not at home when I was at home. She kept the dining room table full of paperwork so that it was impossible to eat a meal together. When I suggested we go out to eat so that we could spend time together, she said going out to eat was for people with ethical problems. She began numerous home-improvement projects that she could not finish. When I hired contractors, she fired them. I was out of the country a great deal and she was able to do a lot of this without me knowing.

I would be ten years before some stability in finances resumed, and I did not have to travel. That was when I said we need to fix this and we began counseling. For the first two years, she would not go except once or twice, on the basis that "you're not supposed to talk about your famly troubles with strangers". When she finally did go, it was sparingly and what finally came out is this:

- She was only interested in marriage for two reasons. #1, money. #2, because she had a childhood message that women should have husbands.
- She felt this was proper and just
- She proposed a solution: we should buy two houses, live separately, spend zero time together and thus all the "normal" reasons for being married were going to be satisfied, and none of the nasty drawbacks of having to actually be together would be suffered on either of us.

Call me intolerant, but that's when I switched from "fix it" to "end it".

I had no desire to cheat. Kind of amazing, I went over ten years with no physical contact except a few times when she would engage in sex, then telling me after that she had always hated it. "Always?" I asked. "Even in our first few years when you initiated most nights?" "Yes", she said. "It's what women are supposed to do, but I never liked it."

I have read in many places that cheaters don't cheat because they want some new exciting experience. They cheat mostly because they seek a connection with another human being, and this usually happens after they've been abandoned by their spouses.

Interesting note - a priest I know says that within the Catholic church outside the USA, if one spouse abandons the other, such as happened to me, then if the abandoned spouse has an extra-marital affair, it is not considered cheating, since the view is that the abandoning spouse has abdicated the marital agreement and it is now null and void, lacking only a legal rendering to make it public knowledge.

Now, serial cheaters? Somehow they're doing something wrong if they really feel abandoned that often. They've probably become intolerable to live with.

DD


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Pepe1970 said:


> The thing with honesty is
> that you have to trust your spouse enough to know that you are safe with him/her.
> That means that you have to let your spouse know about all your complexes, inferiorities, personal opinions about certain subjects.
> In other words you're abandoning yourself to someone else and hope that other person be the same crystal clear with you.
> ...


You aren't abandoning yourself - you are sharing yourself. It's AMAZING.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> What exactly does this mean? Could you clarify/expand on this?


"However, there is a way out even for cheaters if they have the tenacity to see the opening in the tunnel of their thinking. If there is even a bit of an opening, there can be a breakthrough."

If cheaters can see a benefit to moving from deception to openness and honesty, they can have a breakthrough.

Openness and honesty takes some of the air out of the sexual tension and exposes the real reasons for the cheater's behavior. A person's freedom actually becomes more expanded as they get to know the source of their own actions.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

You are never going to make sense of any of this thinking this way. You are over complicating it because you don't want to face the truth. You are never going to heal this way. It's really not that deep. 

They are getting high by ****ing someone else, at the expense of their spouse. That's it in a nutshell.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Hard answer... I have never cheated but you see some of the struggles on this forum...

There are wives, or husbands, that want more sex but their spouse isn't interested. Some dead bedrooms are months old and the spouse withholding sex either doesnt care, isnt attractive, or has a plethora of reasons.

I dont feel its fair to cheat, but I also don't think its crazy if someone is sex starved and their spouse doesnt give a sh*t


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> You are never going to make sense of any of this thinking this way. You are over complicating it because you don't want to face the truth. You are never going to heal this way. It's really not that deep.
> 
> They are getting high by ****ing someone else, at the expense of their spouse. That's it in a nutshell.


The thrill of getting away with it. Happiness has rightly pointed out that when you are open and honest you are free from the addiction to this thrill. The trouble is the addict doesn't want to be free.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

sokillme said:


> You are never going to make sense of any of this thinking this way. You are over complicating it because you don't want to face the truth. You are never going to heal this way. It's really not that deep.
> 
> They are getting high by ****ing someone else, at the expense of their spouse. That's it in a nutshell.


I'm ALL ABOUT the truth. That's the whole point. You poke a hole in the balloon of cheating sexual tension and the cheater is the one that has to face the truth. The question really is: Does the cheater have the faith that facing the truth is the path to real happiness?

What if a person could be free to express themselves sexually? 

Would they find that the deception was more important or that being sexually free was more important?

When you say I'm overcomplicating it, I do recognize that some people like to see the world in terms of black and white. However, the actual facts are that there are many colors to the pathos of cheating behavior. 

While it is simpler to say "You're either a cheat or you're not" - it really isn't that simple.

When people are allowed - or challenged - to examine themselves, there are layers and layers of experiences that contribute. Just doing the behavior over and over doesn't lead to any greater happiness. But uncovering the reasons beneath it can and does lead to greater happiness...and freedom...freedom to love and be loved in return in greater ways that a three second orgasm.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

We are much more honest in our marriage now then when we were young. But there are limits. Men are visual and think about sex with other women frequently. I don't think my W would appreciate a full confession everyday.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> We are much more honest in our marriage now then when we were young. But there are limits. Men are visual and think about sex with other women frequently. I don't think my W would appreciate a full confession everyday.


Interesting you said that. I happen to be a spouse that prefers that level of openness and honesty. It works well for us. I understand my husband's sexuality a lot better now and he feels like he can be himself around me without having to guard himself. Prior to this openness, my husband, too, had the (false) impression that I wouldn't like it - or him - if I really knew what he was thinking. lol. As a result of being open, he was able to find out that his wife, too, had sexy thoughts about others. What did that do? The best thing was we started having sex more often.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


Depends on the relationship. Honesty in my first marriage would have looked like this "I loathe you and the only thing mildly tolerable about you is the sex...but only when you don't speak. I think you're one of the dumbest people I ever met and part of the reason I **** your friends is that they are attractive, skilled lovers, _and_ are able to provide me with relatively intelligent conversation. I'm with you because we reproduced together. Now, please go away and stop bothering me with your breathing sounds."


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> Depends on the relationship. Honesty in my first marriage would have looked like this "I loathe you and the only thing mildly tolerable about you is the sex...but only when you don't speak. I think you're one of the dumbest people I ever met and part of the reason I **** your friends is that they are attractive, skilled lovers, _and_ are able to provide me with relatively intelligent conversation. I'm with you because we reproduced together. Now, please go away and stop bothering me with your breathing sounds."


I think I read this on a hallmark card one day.
Or maybe not.....


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


Selfishness and lack of accountability. That's all.

It's also much more socially acceptable now so peer pressure may even come into it.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Interesting you said that. I happen to be a spouse that prefers that level of openness and honesty. It works well for us. I understand my husband's sexuality a lot better now and he feels like he can be himself around me without having to guard himself. Prior to this openness, my husband, too, had the (false) impression that I wouldn't like it - or him - if I really knew what he was thinking. lol. As a result of being open, he was able to find out that his wife, too, had sexy thoughts about others. What did that do? The best thing was we started having sex more often.


It ain't rocket science.

You're basically saying that your husband can get turned on by anyone he sees - in person or on the computer - and be able to come to you and tell you how horny he is because she turned him on. And then, apparently, it's up to you to service your horn-dog every time he comes running to you for relief when he's pitching a tent.

And _because_ he has this freedom to be completely honest with you every time someone turns him on and he basically wants to get off because of it, that somehow means this enlightened way of thinking insures that you won't be cheated on by Mr. Horny.

Sadly, it doesn't.

Not EVERYONE cheats *purely *for the secret or 'taboo' aspect of it. Lots of people cheat strictly for the sexual variety and/or the excitement of having sex with someone they find extremely attractive. The secrecy is just part of making sure they don't get caught, it's not always an exciting element for them. You think you've eliminated that factor with your sexual honesty policy and therefore, have found the answer to keeping him from cheating but the truth is, one day he may see something that turns him on and your system ain't going to satisfy him. 

My point? *Never* get too cocky and you seem pretty cocky, like you've discovered the secret of keeping your man happy at home. _That's_ how you get the rug pulled right out from under you when you least expect it.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> *Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


*In a sentence, they cheat solely because they are self-serving, backstabbing, solar plexus-gutting cowards!

Who would much rather lie when the truth itself would sound far better!*


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. I will never understand the mind set and selfishness of people who cheat. There is no excuse, ever.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

stillfightingforus said:


> This is thinking logically and rationally. Those are two things that it took me a year to understand that have no place in the mind of a cheater.


This 100%

OP if you have honesty and integrity you will never get the mind of a cheater. They are in it for themselves only. A person with character never understands the one without. And the one without only thinks the one with is a fool


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sometimes people don't really want honesty. 

I've been married over 30 years. Without going into detail since its been discussed before, my wife almost never wants to have sex and there is nothing I can do to change that. She is also unwilling to believe that this is actually important to me. So I can:

1) Leave the woman that I love, leaving her utterly miserable and alone. She loves me, she just doesn't desire sex. 

2) Live celibate for the rest of my life,

3) Get sex on the side and not tell her. 

I've done #2, but I would not blame someone who carefully does 3. 


Things never should have gotten to this point, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.





happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> Interesting you said that. I happen to be a spouse that prefers that level of openness and honesty. It works well for us. I understand my husband's sexuality a lot better now and he feels like he can be himself around me without having to guard himself. Prior to this openness, my husband, too, had the (false) impression that I wouldn't like it - or him - if I really knew what he was thinking. lol. As a result of being open, he was able to find out that his wife, too, had sexy thoughts about others. What did that do? The best thing was we started having sex more often.


I don't know. Is honesty more important than acting correctly or within boundaries? If I tell my W right after that I had sex with another woman does it make it OK? Just being honest honey!


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

Not cheating requires *sustained *integrity, honesty, strength and unyielding loyalty. A *significant *percentage of the worlds population do not possess these qualities.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes people don't really want honesty.
> 
> I've been married over 30 years. Without going into detail since its been discussed before, my wife almost never wants to have sex and there is nothing I can do to change that. She is also unwilling to believe that this is actually important to me. So I can:
> 
> ...


What your wife needs to know is that we do not need to desire sex to have sex, we can do it just because we love our spouses. If she loves surely she would recognise that, and how important it is to you.

I wonder how she would feel if you said that you loved her but that sex was so important to you that you felt you needed to get it elsewhere? 
Now I hate cheating with a passion, my dads cheating ruined my family, but I do think its so selfish for a spouse to withhold sex long term for no reason. There is no excuse for cheating ever in my book, but this is hard situation for you and others like you.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Or, of course, any number of other avenues of conversation...
> 
> "Oh, tell me about that..."
> 
> ...


Oh, I agree that any of these would be better, but I think many people are very attached to a strictly monogamous mindset. It would be too upsetting or threatening to have this discussion, at least, and something they'd want to avoid at all costs. They set a boundary, and don't want to revisit it. As a result, cheating seems like the easier path, and cheating is far more common than any kind of consensual open relationship.

That said, we DID have these conversations, and as a result we have both had other sexual partners over the years, with each other's full knowledge and consent.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


Why rob a bank when you can get up every morning, go to work and work hard for 40 years, live frugally, budget your money wisely and save for the future and end with the same amount of money when you are old and gray?

The mind of the cheater works the same as a bank robber. They want it all now, want instant gratification and don't care who it hurts. They want their and want to eat it too and then they want more cake. 

They cry and boo hoo when they get caught and are held accountable for their actions. But until that moment, they keep on grabbing up what they can get at that moment and don't care about the harm that comes to other people. 

They don't care about fair play and don't care about the needs and wants of other people. They don't care about openness and honesty. They want what they want and they want it now. Then once they get it, they want more of it. 

2 is better than 1. 3 is better than 2. 4 is better than 3 and 5,261 is better than 5,260. There is never enough for the mind of a cheater.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


People cheat because they want to. They hide it because they’re ashamed, they don’t want to risk their oblivious plan b, they don’t want to risk their security.

It’s called selfishness. Simple.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


H27,

Correct me if wrong... but, why the tap dance?

It seems your really saying "extra-marital sex" is un-stoppable. It will happen. So... why lie about it and sneak around and cheat when you can be "open and honest" and just tell the wife...

_"Hey honey, really got the hots for Sue. She wants to have monkey sex tonight, we still good?"_

Your thread title... *"Why Cheat? Why not be honest and open?"*

My question? If you want/need plural relationships, why even bother with getting Married in the first place?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.


Unfortunately, it makes perfect sense to the cheater, at the time of the events. 



happiness27 said:


> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.


Never happened in any marriage. 



happiness27 said:


> Deception destroys happiness. Honesty creates happiness.


Does all deception destroy marriages? I don't disagree, necessarily, but wonder since no marriage is without some deception.



happiness27 said:


> There is no good argument for cheating when there exists the alternative of being open and honest.


I think there are good arguments and it is a moral and ethical decision of the cheater. I tend to think it is somewhat cowardly to allow it from the cheater or the AP's side. I also think it is cowardly for the BS to ignore any signs that might have presented.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

happiness27 said:


> There is no good argument for cheating when there exists the alternative of being open and honest.


A cheater does not want just the affair partner. They want the secuity of their faithful and monogamous spouse dependant on them exclusely for sex, plus the fun affair partner. Since most spouses would not agree to such an imbalanced relationship, they lie and cheat.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't want to derail this thread since I've discussed it elsewhere, but I honesty believe that I have done everything possible, she just doesn't want sex, probably qualifies as near-asexual.



Diana7 said:


> What your wife needs to know is that we do not need to desire sex to have sex, we can do it just because we love our spouses. If she loves surely she would recognise that, and how important it is to you.
> 
> I wonder how she would feel if you said that you loved her but that sex was so important to you that you felt you needed to get it elsewhere?
> Now I hate cheating with a passion, my dads cheating ruined my family, but I do think its so selfish for a spouse to withhold sex long term for no reason. There is no excuse for cheating ever in my book, but this is hard situation for you and others like you.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Amen. My wife and I decided to play with others as a couple. We did that a few times and did not like it. Then my wife started asking her girlfriends to join us in bed since we bought really need some emotional attachment to a person before we have sex with them. We ended up moving my wife's best friend into our home and that was the start of a 30 year poly triad. Our girlfriend got marred after five years living with us and than split her time between us and her own marriage. My marriage is on its 46th year. Our girlfriends is on its 30+ years. None of our siblings or friends are still on their first marriage. All have been divorced at least once and most times due to cheating.

My first fiancé cheated on me a few months before we were to get married. The girlfriend after her cheated on me too. Then I met my wife who was a virgin and she never cheated on me. We played together realizing that we would be genetically attracted to others and sexual fidelity is not what kept our marriage together. We are all handed monogamy and never given an alternative. It is like teaching someone to drive and only telling them they can drive in one direction and to turn left or right is the biggest betrayal in the world. We are still stuck in the thought of owning our spouse to some extent. If you think logically, why should we have the exclusive rights to each other's orgasms? We place too much importance on sex. Monogamy had a very real purpose in ancient times but not needed now. With DNA testing, police, military and supermarkets, no one has to worry about keeping a man around for protection and hunting or raising a child that does not have your genes when the people back then had very limited time and resources. Nature favors anything that results in the successful passing on of our genes. We are all hear because our ancestors back to the first man and woman, successfully passed along their genes using genetically coded behavior like jealousy. Every really read the bible where it says not to covert they neighbor's wife? Most have not but if you do you will find that it was included in a list of property. Wives were considered as property and the writers of the bible who preached monogamy had concubines. We are still being sold on a marriage structure that is no longer relevant.

Most of us do not want our spouses to have sex with others out of fear of loss or comparison. What if he is richer, better looking, better in bed, bigger penis, etc.. We fear loss so we keep our spouses on a sexual leash or at least we think so. Some studies show that in 70% of marriages one or both spouses have cheated. I can believe that from the marriages of friends and family. My feeling based on two cheating ex lovers is that if they are going to leave you they will, monogamy or not. We are not really even monogamous. We are serially monogamous. Like Lemmings couples are jumping into a marriage structure that fails 53% of the time. These are the same people who would not buy a car that has a 53% chance of failing. We need more logic to counter how love blinds us to the faults of each other and reality around us.

My marriage is great as is the one of the girlfriend we shared. Both women are bi so it worked out well for us. The other husband tried to join us but he freaked out after she saw me making love to his wife and never tried to join us in be again. Our marriage is based on the knowledge that no matter what, our marriage and each other would be held above all else. We both loved our girlfriend but our marriage and each other always came first. Yet, I do not recommend poly to most people. It is much harder than monogamy and will not fix a troubled marriage. It requires the right people which is very difficult to find. Many times one of the people in a poly arrangement does not want to share anymore or "accidently" gets pregnant. I have seen it all. 

Most people tell me that I am crazy sharing my wife with another women and with other guys in the past. I ask them which is more crazy, destroying the life you built with your spouse, going broker, separating the kids and growing to hate each other just so you can morally have a one night stand with a persons you are sexually attracted to or just be OK with it as long as it is the exception rather than the rule and done with your spouses knowledge and OK. I will never understand why having sex with someone other than your spouse is the ultimate betrayal. Women marry criminals, some who do despicable things and yet draw the line at having sex with someone else. How silly are we?

I cannot argue with success. We have prospered and had a freaking great sex life that kept us all feeling desirable and attractive. We got to experience sex in different ways. It is very different having sex with someone who does not know what buttons to push or what they will do next. The best sex I ever had was not with my wife as far as raw sex goes, but nothing can compare to hot sex with someone you love. My wife, our girlfriend and I made love and there is a big difference between that and just having sex. We shared our innermost desires and fears. We sought each other's advice and were a big part of each other's life. When we played with others it was just a race to an orgasm and as many as we could give and get. Quite different than the sex you have with someone you love.


There is a recent review of a book that says marriages that end in divorce mean that the marriage has been successful. The premise is that we all grow during our marriage and learn what we like and dislike. Our needs and wants change and a divorce means that we have completed the journey to who we ultimately are and find that we are no longer compatible with the person we married as young people. Hot sex does disappear. Courtship love also goes away and that is when you no longer overlook each other's faults. That is the time when you need to decide if you want to stay with your spouse, warts and all, or seek someone more compatible to the new you free of love goggles and more in tune with yourself. 


However, society is not ready for poly. Just think about company benefits and who gets them. Spreading a pension among 3 wives is not going to really provide for them should you die. How do you handle a wife who has kids from three other men who refuse to support them and you cannot afford to support them all on your own. Our legal system cannot handle it at this time but sooner or later they will have to. I do not recommend poly because out of all of our poly married friends, we are the only ones who are still together. They all divorced when one or in one case, both of them found someone they loved more and liked better. What I am in favor of is ethical non monogamy which is allowing each other lovers with all in the open and both spouses agreeing on the new lovers. This does not even have to be all the time. Some couples will drift into and out of monogamy from time to time. Sometimes you need a new lover to make you feel good about yourself or rekindle you sex life. At other times the comfort of monogamy with the same person is great. The sex may not be as exciting as with a new sex partner but the sex is still good and makes you feel loved. We called that monogamish. That is not looking for other sex partners but if circumstances end up with you wanting sex with someone else, that is OK as long as it is the exception and not the rule. The first time I spent a night with a new girl after I married, I just called my wife to tell her I was OK and would not be home that night. She never wants to know what I did. As she says, what the eyes do not see the heart cannot feel. I was asked to spend the night with a model in town for a photoshoot. Once of my customers hires a lot of models and without mentioning names, you probably have seen their specials on TV.  I could not pass up a chance like that. It made me feel good for years. I have been told in my younger years that I was a hot looking guy but I never saw myself that way. This model made me believe it was true and the best sex partner I ever had in my life. 

Unfortunately most people rather go down with the monogamy ship than seek the safety of a new ship. That is what we are taught and most still feel holier than thou because they cheated in the framework of monogamy rather than immoral polyamory. All I say to them is that I am still happily married and most of them are not. Sorry for the long post but this is a subject that a needs to be discussed as anyone who is not blind can see that our current marriage structure is not working more than half of the time and there are cheating websites all over the place with millions of married people as customers. Time to rethink what marriage should mean and how it should work.

BTW, I am not against monogamy. My wife and I have been monogamous for the last 8 years and it fits our current circumstances very well. So if you are happy living in monogamy that is really great as the idea is to be happy, not to have sex with others unless that is what makes you happy.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

So Majdeath....

Has the wife EVER stopped cheating, or still lying about it?

Is she being honest with you now and you’re accepting it and want to feel better about it, or what?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

My OM wasn't in a committed relationship as his wife knew about and accepted his having other lovers. I cheated because I thought my husband was going to leave me and I am psychologically ill to the point that I would literally be homeless and die if I had to live alone and look after myself, so I felt I needed to make sure I had a sturdy lifeboat BEFORE the ship sank rather than waiting for him to file for divorce first.

That said, I can understand why people would cheat for the taboo factor or the "thrill." In a monogamous, faithful relationship, there's you and there's him/her. That's it. But in a chating relationship where one or both of you is already in a "committed" relationship, there's a sense that you're better than the spouse of your affair partner. There's the sense of, "S/He promised himself/herself to someone else that s/he loved enough to DEDICATE THEIR WHOLE LIFE to this person, and now they're discarding this person they used to love because I am THAT MUCH BETTER by comparison!! All those vows s/he made to his/her spouse? They love me even MORE than that!! I'm more loved and more desirable than a person someone dedicated their LIVES to!!"

I can absolutely see how that feeling of superiority, in addition to all the usual happy new-love bonding chemicals, would be preferable to monogamy if the person didn't understand the psychology behind affairs and why they're not really "loved more" or "better" than the betrayed spouse. I used to think that was how affairs worked, because my parents who have been happily married for 30 years were each other's APs and they left their original spouses for each other. I was shocked to learn that the rate at which people divorce for their affair partners and then stay together is almost nil.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> I don't know. Is honesty more important than acting correctly or within boundaries? If I tell my W right after that I had sex with another woman does it make it OK? Just being honest honey!


You would tell her before - that you were attracted to another woman. Then you and your wife would talk that through. 

Not impossible at all. My husband and I have done that. Does it punch a hole in the balloon of the sexual tension that is building with the other woman? Yes, it does. The chemical oxytocin is a powerful drug that kicks in when sexual tension arises. That chemical high is what a person is actually chasing when flirting with the idea of an affair. 

Talking things through gives a person's brain the opportunity to re-analyze and get a grip on the chemical reaction they are chasing after. An understanding spouse is going to welcome these conversations and be a true loving partner who respects their spouse's sexuality. We do not OWN each other. We are partners but both of us are individuals who need the kind of trust and companionship that makes us want to come home to the other - trusted...safe...excited...accepted...loved. Open and honest conversations - while not the societal norm - is not only possible but a goal that is worth pursuing.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

TRy said:


> A cheater does not want just the affair partner. They want the secuity of their faithful and monogamous spouse dependant on them exclusely for sex, plus the fun affair partner. Since most spouses would not agree to such an imbalanced relationship, they lie and cheat.



I don't agree with what you have said here. Affairs are much more complex than this. Sure, there are the rich and powerful and/or really beautiful people who attract a lot of attention to the point that having affairs is a constant pressure they can't resist. 

But for the average person, affairs are fraught with personal issues that could be at least addressed if they were out in the open about what they are thinking/feeling/doing. 

Consider this, for instance: If you asked a person 'If your spouse was here right now with you (and the person you are getting ready to cheat with), would you do it?'

Most would say 'no'

Okay, so, what would it be like to have some conversations with your spouse instead? Open. Honest. Conversations?

"Oh, s/he'll get MAD!" "I don't want to hurt his/her feelings." "I don't WANT to be honest!" "S/He doesn't want to hear about it."

That's the cheater having the whole conversation in his/her head - and the spouse didn't even get the opportunity to have their own reaction.

There's another interesting thread on here where the OP said her sex life was so-so and asked for advice - and got it, from here on her thread. She tried it and it worked amazingly. That she did something different instead of staying stuck in her own thinking was a bold effective move that apparently led to a positive outcome. 

Marriage is a relationship - it's like it's you/me and the relationship - so it's three entities. Each individual has to work at communicating openly and honestly to keep the relationship alive. 

To people who aren't communicating, the thought of communicating openly and honestly about everything may sound just crazy - like it's going to just lead to a lot of conflict and unhappiness. But the reality is that when two people step out boldly and authentically, they then both have the same information on which to steer the relationship mission. What openness and honesty ends up doing is letting both people make decisions based on real information about each other. If that means they split because they so fundamentally disagree, isn't that better? If it means they begin trusting each other utterly and completely - and enter into greater acceptance of each other, isn't that better?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> ... To people who aren't communicating, the thought of communicating openly and honestly about everything may sound just crazy - like it's going to just lead to a lot of conflict and unhappiness.


There are many who advocate strongly for complete honesty, even to the extent of transparency about past relationships. However, I think some of these same people would rather NOT hear anything that may be contrary to their concepts of what marriage, monogamy, and a relationship should be. Raising the possibility of non-monogamy would immediately be grounds for possible divorce, and not an opportunity for discussion and consideration, even if the ultimate choice is to not pursue it. So much for honesty! Honesty goes only so far as it serves their _own_ beliefs and interests. I think hypocrisy is rampant, but seldom acknowledged.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Keep in mind, you don't have to do anything anyone suggests. We truly don't know you at all. We only know what is posted. That's a miniscule amount of your lives. 

I don't believe complete honesty is possible. I do think folks know what they just don't want to try or try again. Sometimes, that looks like hypocrisy.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > ... To people who aren't communicating, the thought of communicating openly and honestly about everything may sound just crazy - like it's going to just lead to a lot of conflict and unhappiness.
> ...


I have lived with and through these kinds of conversations with my spouse. We are very close and intimate since working on openness and honesty.
Instead of approaching the openness with fear and loathing of each other, we found out more about ourselves and each other.
Our sexual experiences as indivuals plays a role in how we approach each other in our relationship. 
The conversations led to both of us being able to talk about a variety of both positive and negative experiences. For both of us we found that we shared some common fears and shame. It has brought us closer together even though some of the conversations were emotional. But we hung in there.
No, I'm sure there are people for whom this would not bring them happiness. For us, our bond is stronger.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> So Majdeath....
> 
> Has the wife EVER stopped cheating, or still lying about it?
> 
> Is she being honest with you now and you’re accepting it and want to feel better about it, or what?


Things are stable for now. The only negative I hear occasionally is that she really didn't like it when I moved out and filed 2 yrs ago after catching her giving foot massages to a "friend". She says I "lost my mind" and she cannot rationalize how I could be so upset over nothing - in her mind. She forgets her track record when it comes to relationships.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> You would tell her before - that you were attracted to another woman. Then you and your wife would talk that through.
> 
> Not impossible at all. My husband and I have done that. Does it punch a hole in the balloon of the sexual tension that is building with the other woman? Yes, it does. The chemical oxytocin is a powerful drug that kicks in when sexual tension arises. That chemical high is what a person is actually chasing when flirting with the idea of an affair.
> 
> Talking things through gives a person's brain the opportunity to re-analyze and get a grip on the chemical reaction they are chasing after. An understanding spouse is going to welcome these conversations and be a true loving partner who respects their spouse's sexuality. We do not OWN each other. We are partners but both of us are individuals who need the kind of trust and companionship that makes us want to come home to the other - trusted...safe...excited...accepted...loved. Open and honest conversations - while not the societal norm - is not only possible but a goal that is worth pursuing.


Some things should remain secret. I once looked up a manikin's skirt in a store when I was younger. Try explaining that one.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I am all for honesty and transparency. However to my mind, there are certain types of people who have the ability to cheat and it is tied up with their self-image, their level or morality, how they speak to themselves, how they justify their actions. 

In other words, it seems logical to be open and honest but that is taking self-preservation, personality, morality out of the equation.
Some see nothing wrong with cheating, others find their boundaries are weak and succumb to pleasure due to being weak-willed., others do it due to opportunity, others due to emotional pain, and the list goes on.
There are some people who would never cheat but not everyone is the same.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

No


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Because for most it's not about the primary relationship. it's about wanting 2 relationships. 2 is better then 1.
> 
> You are thinking like they do this to solve a problem or and emptiness which is what lots of people who push for R want you to think about it. Emptiness may have something to do with it, but news flash everyone in the world feels that emptiness. Emptiness is the default human condition, not happiness. This line of thinking, that the affair was a call for help is mostly dishonest, however thinking this way makes it easier to R because it's hard to get over the fact that they just ****ed you over, if you really actually believe why they ****ed you over.
> 
> ...


sokillme - brilliant dissection; spot on. I did exactly that for a day and an age - trying to rationalise and make sense, finding new angles. What a load of BS it all proved to be. My ex did it bc she could. I mean it all makes sense while you are free falling down these rabbit holes but it's really running away from the cold hard truth. We got f**ked over.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. Through all the problems in my marriage over the years the one thing that I tried and wanted from both of us was just to be open and honest about everything. I asked my almost ex-wife I don't know how many times over the years if she wanted to divorce or if she wanted to work on things, always getting the same answer of "If I wanted a divorce, we'd be divorced" Through all of it though she never wanted to talk about any of it, things between us leveled out to a point where we were "good" but they never improved. Now after finally catching her in an affair, we are divorcing, and one of my first questions to her after the confrontation was "Why?". If she wanted to be with someone else, why didn't she just tell me? I had asked the question probably 100 times before, so why not just tell me she wanted a divorce and be done with it. Neither one of us was really happy and we both knew that, so why?

After going through everything I've been going through the past few weeks now and looking back on everything that's happened it really has become clear. I mean it was clear to me a long time ago but I guess I just didn't want to admit it and had hoped that somehow things would work out. She wanted to keep me around for the second income, to take care of things around the house, to be home with our son while she was "working late" or out at some other "work" related function, so that she could continue on with her way of life. She knew that if we divorced that she would have 100 times more responsibilities, more expenses, that she would need to cut a lot habits and things she does out of her life, and sadly that she'd have to become more of a mother to our son. I'm not saying she's a bad mother but at least in my opinion she doesn't spend enough quality time with him and taking care of him.

But like many other's have said, in the mind of a cheater what they're doing isn't wrong, for some twisted reason. In their minds their actions are completely justified. In my case, the divorce process is still going on and it's surely been a roller coaster so far, but this weekend she did seem to break and finally started to seem realistic about what's going on. I know that I'll be fine when it's all over, but the one thing that I am curious about is how she'll be once it's all done and has to deal with and do everything on her own without me. Will it be the wake up call that she needs, who knows. And I know some people will ask why I would even care, but I was once in love with her, I do still "love" her, and we did spend 18 years together making tons of great memories, building our home and family, and because of that we will always have a connection.

But going back to the original question, if all of us were just open and honest with each other about things, life would be a lot happier in general. Sure there would be disappointments along the way, but we would all know where we stand with others. We would be able to avoid disappointment, or at least ease the hurt of disappointment


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## dzz (Apr 24, 2014)

Why do cheaters cheat? The naughty factor. The fun. The sense that they're doing something adventurous that's entirely theirs and not their spouse's. 

Also, they're selfish and have the mentality that "What wifey/husband doesn't know won't hurt him/her."

And that's wrong. On so many levels.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Horizon said:


> sokillme - brilliant dissection; spot on. I did exactly that for a day and an age - trying to rationalise and make sense, finding new angles. What a load of BS it all proved to be. My ex did it bc she could. I mean it all makes sense while you are free falling down these rabbit holes but it's really running away from the cold hard truth. We got f**ked over.


I suspect most awful stuff works like this. When it comes down to it there was a decision, and the injured party was chosen against.


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## Lady_of_Rohan (Jun 23, 2018)

My sister was married for years to a serial cheater (he died in 2014). They could never have been "open and honest" because she never would have been ok with his constant cheating. Apparently he just did what he wanted and the hell with her. She didn't find out about it until after he was dead and all these other women showed up at his funeral each of them thinking he was single and they were his only girlfriend. She would have left him in a heartbeat if she had ever found out. Which would have taken away his 24/7 access to the 4 children he adored even if he obviously didn't really love their mother. He did a good job of hiding his cheating, I'll give him that. No one ever even suspected. Nor did his many APs apparently suspect that he was married and had kids as well as other APs.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

And sometimes to get sex that they are denied by their partners. (Just continuing to mention the *other* reason for cheating).



dzz said:


> Why do cheaters cheat? The naughty factor. The fun. The sense that they're doing something adventurous that's entirely theirs and not their spouse's.
> 
> Also, they're selfish and have the mentality that "What wifey/husband doesn't know won't hurt him/her."
> 
> And that's wrong. On so many levels.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Unfortunately, it makes perfect sense to the cheater, at the time of the events.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Does all deception destroy marriages? I don't disagree, necessarily, but wonder since no marriage is without some deception."

Deception is a part of human nature, most certainly. However, this doesn't mean that people can't alter that within their relationship. My husband and I have worked really hard at this. The work has been conversations - and some of them have hit us both to the core of our beings...and that's exactly the place you want to get to. That's the place where you find out who you really are and who the other person really is. When you feel committed, loved and accepted at the very base of these revelations - that is where true acceptance of yourself and your significant other can thrive. 

Looking at this as a daunting uphill task - being completely open and honest - I can definitely empathize with people who are, like - NOPE! It's a lot of work. There's pain involved. However - what is on the other side of that pain is a space that is so wide open and freeing, that I feel it is totally worth it. 

BOTH people have to declare and abide by being *all in* - meaning, they are committed to staying in the conversation to whatever resolution the conversation results may end up being. Complete openness and honesty requires the partner to be utterly discreet and committed to protecting the other person's innermost feelings and *secrets*. There can be no betrayal. 

My husband and I are completely protective of the other's private thoughts and feelings. We don't talk negative about each other in front of other people and treat each other with respect. I would never tell anyone anything super private about my husband nor would he about me. But, for us, we got to a point where we felt like we had to have at least someone with whom we could be 100% authentic and accepted.

I went into this venture with an innate understanding that openness and honesty brings people closer together. Little by little, as we shared, we found out as much about ourselves as we did about each other. We both had fears that kept us in behaviors that distanced us from each other. By sharing these fears and the tears that went with them - so many puzzle pieces fell into place. It was, like "OHHHH, that's why you do that." We were able to begin to heal old pain by holding each other and letting one or the other revisit a tough memory or space with a newfound support and compassion that was not there at the time of the old experience. 

One thing we worked through was something that was just driving me nuts - my husband would, instead of checking in with me, have something he wanted to do or say to me, but instead of doing it or saying it, he would have a conversation in his own head about what my responses would probably be and then end up not acting on what he wanted to do or say. I called him on that several times until, finally, he caught on to what he was doing. He started giving me a chance to actually respond - and I explained my side of what I was thinking. 

For instance, he might get triggered to want to have sex, then come in where I was sitting at my desk working and touch my shoulder and kiss me. In my mind, I was in the middle of reading, writing, working and not thinking about sex at all. In his mind, he was already picturing us having sex. In his mind, his touch and kiss was a cue. In my mind, I thought he was just being nice. 

Had he said, I'm thinking about sex - I could have said, "Oh, yeah? Can you give me about 20 minutes (or 2 hours) to get through these things and meet me upstairs?"

But, instead, he would say to himself, "she's busy, she's not interested in me, I'm horny right now, she doesn't find me attractive..." or whatever and down the rabbit hole. 

It put a really big wedge between us. Because when people make up stories in their heads, their story becomes their picture of their spouse. The real spouse doesn't match that picture but it doesn't matter. Both people start feeling more and more misunderstood. 

Well, it's certainly obvious why that is happening. They aren't talking openly and honestly. There's no way they can come up with solutions when both people are working off of two different sets of information. They both have to talk and listen so they both have the same information to make decisions from. 

"Okay, I'm really horny now, so I can go jack off or I can wait until she's done and available. hmmmmm, maybe both." I don't know, it's a decision that he gets to make but at least he's making that decision knowing that he is loved and accepted and not with the false idea that his wife is rejecting him. 

That's just a mere snippet of an example. There are other examples that are much bigger and more complex and require bigger waders. 

It takes a lot of guts to wade deep into a relationship like this. Marriage really isn't for the faint at heart. But the faint at heart *can* experience the freedom that openness and honesty affords if they take things one small step at a time very slowly. The very bottom brick in the foundation needs to be commitment - hanging in there, not bolting and running before the miracle. People make amazing changes in their lives when they feel deeply understood and accepted.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Cheating makes no sense.
> 
> A better way to be in a relationship is to be open and honest with each other about all things.


Honey do you think I am fat? .....?????


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> There are many who advocate strongly for complete honesty, even to the extent of transparency about past relationships. However, I think some of these same people would rather NOT hear anything that may be contrary to their concepts of what marriage, monogamy, and a relationship should be. Raising the possibility of non-monogamy would immediately be grounds for possible divorce, and not an opportunity for discussion and consideration, even if the ultimate choice is to not pursue it. So much for honesty! Honesty goes only so far as it serves their _own_ beliefs and interests. I think hypocrisy is rampant, but seldom acknowledged.


The reality is that many relationships are not SAFE for honesty, as you describe here. Dear, I want you to be fully honest with me, but you had better not have any feelings or opinions that are uncomfortable for me or I will reject your entire person-hood.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> The reality is that many relationships are not SAFE for honesty, as you describe here. Dear, I want you to be fully honest with me, but you had better not have any feelings or opinions that are uncomfortable for me or I will reject your entire person-hood.


Why would anyone stay in a relationship where they could not authentically exist?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Honey do you think I am fat? .....?????


That question actually came up as a matter of fact. The answer was that, yes, there were times in our marriage where I gained some weight and wasn't working out because I wasn't feeling well and was working through some physical issues. 

As we talked about this, what came out of the discussion was that he distanced himself from me at those times because he was judging me as unattractive while also feeling ashamed of those thoughts. I distanced myself from him because I felt afraid of not feeling well and too depressed to go to the gym and work out. We weren't *there* for each other - because we weren't being open and honest. 

These kinds of scenarios arise within relationships - and people need to know how to cope with things like this. 

It was really, really hurting to hear from my husband that there have been times within our relationship when he was not attracted to me over a superficial thing like body weight (it was 30 lbs so it wasn't just a little). 

When we did have this revelation together, I offered that the solution may have been for him to say, "Let's go to the gym together and let me give you a back rub afterwards.' or...a list of other ideas...

I mean, there are proactive solutions to things as long as people are willing to talk. 

I actually felt better when my husband was honest with me. And I responded, too. I went back to the gym because, really, I did need to. I lost 22lbs, which I needed to and got my body shape and energy back. 

My husband's realization was that, in his words, "I'm shallow sometimes...I don't like that about myself, plus I've been selfish." 

Which led to another conversation about acts of unselfishness.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Why would anyone stay in a relationship where they could not authentically exist?


Because they do not want to pay the price of divorcing. They don't want to hurt the kids. They don't want to pay the financial cost. They don't want to have to go back into the dating world. They fear they will never find someone else and will end up alone.

Fear. Fear of change. Fear of the unknown. Fear of discomfort. Fear is what keeps people living inauthentic lives. Ask me how I know. :surprise:


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I'll go one further. At one point I told my W that if she was lonely or whatever while I was deployed overseas, she could scratch that itch. She really didn't want me to be gone so long, so I said it was OK as kind of a compromise. She had some relationships with other men.

But what was interesting was her need to hide it - even though she had no reason to. She couldn't be open and honest, even when it was OK to be. She had OM hide their cars in the closed garage when they came over. She never told me about spending so much time with the guys. She lied about a trip to New York to spend time with a guy. She never told me about a drugging incident. She never told me about our son coming home from school early and catching them hastily getting dressed. Or getting tested for STDs. Why? 
Even when it was OK to be honest she still couldn't be, even when I asked.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> I'll go one further. At one point I told my W that if she was lonely or whatever while I was deployed overseas, she could scratch that itch. She really didn't want me to be gone so long, so I said it was OK as kind of a compromise. She had some relationships with other men.
> 
> But what was interesting was her need to hide it - even though she had no reason to. She couldn't be open and honest, even when it was OK to be. She had OM hide their cars in the closed garage when they came over. She never told me about spending so much time with the guys. She lied about a trip to New York to spend time with a guy. She never told me about a drugging incident. She never told me about our son coming home from school early and catching them hastily getting dressed. Or getting tested for STDs. Why?
> Even when it was OK to be honest she still couldn't be, even when I asked.


She could have been honest. And WOW for you that you honored her sexuality enough to let her experience that openly while you were gone. I don't want to "should" on her for the way she handled it - this is a part of the conversation where people need to get real with each other and keep the conversation going...so she could talk about whatever drove her to be dishonest. She needs to be able to say that out loud. 

Did the dishonesty break you guys up? Or were you able to talk it through? Do you think talking it through would have helped?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Because they do not want to pay the price of divorcing. They don't want to hurt the kids. They don't want to pay the financial cost. They don't want to have to go back into the dating world. They fear they will never find someone else and will end up alone.
> 
> Fear. Fear of change. Fear of the unknown. Fear of discomfort. Fear is what keeps people living inauthentic lives. Ask me how I know. :surprise:


Is stepping into authenticity a feeling that all of these things would be threatened then? Like, if the two of you talked to each other in a very real way, that one or both of you would, instead of relying on that foundation cornerstone of commitment, that you would threaten to leave the other if certain revelations came to light?

The path of honesty and openness is fraught with many trials. Sometimes when I am feeling something really embarrassing or hurtful, I warn my husband ahead of time that I am probably just going to start spewing venom and to see those reactions for what they are - my hurt and pain spewing out like a hot geyser. This helps him stay calm and hang in there with me. At the end of something like this, it wouldn't be unusual for me to fall into the pain and cry about how much it hurts. He will hold me, I'll push him away, he'll hold me again. It's a very, very deep thing to experience. I hope I never gave the impression this was easy. 

What makes all of it worth it is what's on the other side. Having a partner with whom you can feel these deep feelings and they are still there afterwards, reaching out to you, hanging in there with you, loving you - your brain can't help to get altered. Oh, that person DIDN'T leave you, that person DOES still love you, that person DOES understand you...I CAN be myself and still be loved.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Let's say you are truly authentic, and lose the relationship because of it. The truth is that it will be very difficult to find _anyone_ who operates on the level you are advocating. It is likely that you will be authentically _alone_ in your life. I would prefer to be _mostly_ honest and authentic, enjoying a mostly marvelous relationship, and accept that the majority people cannot cope with this, no matter how desirable it is conceptually. Give me someone who at least makes a sincere effort at it, in most things, because I really can't expect to do better than this. I'll go so far as to say that most people find true idealists to be obnoxious and poor company. In reality, while we can strive to improve towards an ideal, flaws make us human. We may suffer at times because of it, but may suffer more if we achieve our ideal.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> What makes all of it worth it is what's on the other side. Having a partner with whom you can feel these deep feelings and they are still there afterwards, reaching out to you, hanging in there with you, loving you - your brain can't help to get altered. Oh, that person DIDN'T leave you, that person DOES still love you, that person DOES understand you...I CAN be myself and still be loved.


Great when it happens that way. Not always the end result. We went to marriage counselling for 8 years. I opened my heart to her. She told me to pound sand. To live authentically, I would have had to leave her. I didn't want to leave. Kids. Finances. Fear. So I stayed. And I stopped living authentically.

Now she wants us to be open and honest with each other. Sorry, homey don't play that game no more.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > I'll go one further. At one point I told my W that if she was lonely or whatever while I was deployed overseas, she could scratch that itch. She really didn't want me to be gone so long, so I said it was OK as kind of a compromise. She had some relationships with other men.
> ...


This information was not shared with me until 10+ years later. That was when she decided I could finally "handle" the truth. So is that selective honesty on her terms? 

We are still together but it is different. Going out getting some strange with limited spousal approval is one thing, but bringing them home to use the bed/shower/toilet is another thing. Not sure I could have handled the details back then. And making up a ruse for the NY trip is unsettling. She could have simply said "I met a cute guy who I have been seeing, and he invited me to visit NY.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Great when it happens that way. Not always the end result. We went to marriage counselling for 8 years. I opened my heart to her. She told me to pound sand. To live authentically, I would have had to leave her. I didn't want to leave. Kids. Finances. Fear. So I stayed. And I stopped living authentically.
> 
> Now she wants us to be open and honest with each other. Sorry, homey don't play that game no more.


Sometimes living authentically means leaving. 

Now, you are invested again and I don't blame you one bit for feeling bitter over the past. 

I can't believe that 8 years of counseling yielded nothing. I'd be pissed, too.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> This information was not shared with me until 10+ years later. That was when she decided I could finally "handle" the truth. So is that selective honesty on her terms?
> 
> We are still together but it is different. Going out getting some strange with limited spousal approval is one thing, but bringing them home to use the bed/shower/toilet is another thing. Not sure I could have handled the details back then. And making up a ruse for the NY trip is unsettling. She could have simply said "I met a cute guy who I have been seeing, and he invited me to visit NY.


I agree and you are one helluva guy for expecting and giving openness and honesty. Did you lay out ground rules for the open marriage while you were away?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Let's say you are truly authentic, and lose the relationship because of it. The truth is that it will be very difficult to find _anyone_ who operates on the level you are advocating. It is likely that you will be authentically _alone_ in your life. I would prefer to be _mostly_ honest and authentic, enjoying a mostly marvelous relationship, and accept that the majority people cannot cope with this, no matter how desirable it is conceptually. Give me someone who at least makes a sincere effort at it, in most things, because I really can't expect to do better than this. I'll go so far as to say that most people find true idealists to be obnoxious and poor company. In reality, while we can strive to improve towards an ideal, flaws make us human. We may suffer at times because of it, but may suffer more if we achieve our ideal.


Part of the reason for being open and honest is so that each person in the relationship has the same information - and can make decisions based on jointly known facts. Yes, that might mean that one of the people decides to leave but that's less likely if both people are continually open and honest. I mean, people don't just fall down and have an affair. They meet someone, they flirt, they do stuff together...well, if you are being open and honest with your spouse, you are telling them everything that is happening along the way, which punches down the "affair" factor and turns into a discussion about being sexually or emotionally attracted to another person. This gives the couple an opportunity to access what is going on between the two of them. 

Sure, different people are going to have different reactions to various information. If my husband had been honest with me and told me he was attracted to a co-worker, we could have talked about that. I mean, she was a hot young redhead. I can totally understand the attraction. But the dishonest part of it was the part that annoyed me. Now, the co-worker was unaware of the attraction so it wasn't something reciprocated - but the attraction DID interfere with the relationship between my husband and me. At that time, he always completely denied any attraction or emotional attachments he ever formed with other women, this one included. What I was interested in was understanding what was going on with my husband - and, well, US, that made these kinds of attachments form.

With lies and deception and secrets, neither of us could steer our relationship on the same course because we were both operating from different sets of personal instructions. Like, if you were to go on a mission as a team, one of us had one set of directions and the other had a different set of instructions. We kept getting off course, which feels awful. We couldn't connect.

Over the past few years as we have entered the arena of being very open and honest, there were many discoveries we have made. One of the discoveries (this is for you men) that i truly in my *apparently* naive mind did not know or understand was how important sex was to my husband. And what he didn't understand was that sex was just as important to me. I didn't realize that he liked to have sex nearly every day. He didn't realize that I would like that also but that it simply takes different cues for me to get my fire started. 

And the barrier for me was that he was often distracted and not focused on me as his partner - and expected me to initiate sex as quickly as he did. Like Harrison Ford once said when asked what a women has to do to turn a guy on: "Show up." Often times, the multi-tasking woman has to shut down 127 windows before she can concentrate on sex. Then, she's gonna worry about every little bump and roll and flaw and wonder if she's sexy enough. How on earth do people in a marriage make things work between each other if they can't have conversations on this level? For us, it was painful keeping these things to ourselves. It was much better to open up and hold each other and reassure each other and for heaven's sake, have some laughs.

As we worked harder and harder on these conversations, we grew in our understanding of ourselves and our foibles. We opened up our solutions by knocking down barriers of secrets and deceit. We started to *see* each other through a different pair of glasses. Instead of feeling misunderstood under a mountain of resentment, we started feeling, well...loved and loving. 

One can certainly stay back and say that openness and honesty *might* lead to some bad stuff or to somebody leaving. Maybe it would. At least this would be giving partners a chance to move on if they feel they want/need to or stay and redesign the relationship. We chose to redesign our relationship. Yes, there was some shock and hurt but another way to look at it was that there was relief and healing.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I enjoyed reading that. Thank you. Still, I felt I needed to explain myself. I posted an answer to your opening post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ntnuf View Post 
Unfortunately, it makes perfect sense to the cheater, at the time of the events. 

What I meant was the cheater doesn't think about what sense it makes to the marriage/relationship. They are thinking of themselves. 

Never happened in any marriage. 

I feel like your premise is that we can always be open and honest in our spouse/partner. I just think that is an absolute that can't happen. However, I do believe it can happen most of the time, but not in every marriage/relationship. 

Does all deception destroy marriages? I don't disagree, necessarily, but wonder since no marriage is without some deception.

I think you will find that we all deceive to some extent. Those who intend to deceive are called liars. Those who do not set out to deceive are called fools for their deceptions. 

I think there are good arguments and it is a moral and ethical decision of the cheater. I tend to think it is somewhat cowardly to allow it from the cheater or the AP's side. I also think it is cowardly for the BS to ignore any signs that might have presented.

I think you asked if there were any good reasons to cheat. I've been here long enough to have seen some reasons that shook me and made me think how easy it is for each of us to justify what we truly want. When we need loved and dinner is set before us, but we are not allowed to eat, it becomes human nature to attempt to get what we hunger for. No, I don't think cheating is justified... not at all. I am simply saying that sometimes, I get it, even though I think it is a choice among choices and a very painful one for the BS, most times. 



happiness27 said:


> "Does all deception destroy marriages? I don't disagree, necessarily, but wonder since no marriage is without some deception."
> 
> Deception is a part of human nature, most certainly. However, this doesn't mean that people can't alter that within their relationship. My husband and I have worked really hard at this. The work has been conversations - and some of them have hit us both to the core of our beings...and that's exactly the place you want to get to. That's the place where you find out who you really are and who the other person really is. When you feel committed, loved and accepted at the very base of these revelations - that is where true acceptance of yourself and your significant other can thrive.
> 
> ...


That's admirable. I have the experience of having myself exposed by my cheating ex after she left. That experience has built a wall of mistrust. I'm not asking for help in that. I'm making excuses...…. err, explaining, yeah. 



happiness27 said:


> I went into this venture with an innate understanding that openness and honesty brings people closer together. Little by little, as we shared, we found out as much about ourselves as we did about each other. We both had fears that kept us in behaviors that distanced us from each other. By sharing these fears and the tears that went with them - so many puzzle pieces fell into place. It was, like "OHHHH, that's why you do that." We were able to begin to heal old pain by holding each other and letting one or the other revisit a tough memory or space with a newfound support and compassion that was not there at the time of the old experience.


Made me feel all gooey inside. That's a very difficult task you accomplished. You both should be proud.



happiness27 said:


> One thing we worked through was something that was just driving me nuts - my husband would, instead of checking in with me, have something he wanted to do or say to me, but instead of doing it or saying it, he would have a conversation in his own head about what my responses would probably be and then end up not acting on what he wanted to do or say. I called him on that several times until, finally, he caught on to what he was doing. He started giving me a chance to actually respond - and I explained my side of what I was thinking.
> 
> For instance, he might get triggered to want to have sex, then come in where I was sitting at my desk working and touch my shoulder and kiss me. In my mind, I was in the middle of reading, writing, working and not thinking about sex at all. In his mind, he was already picturing us having sex. In his mind, his touch and kiss was a cue. In my mind, I thought he was just being nice.
> 
> ...


Seems to happen in many marriages after several attempts that end in what feels like getting chastised for loving and needing your wife. Doesn't take much of a sentence for a man to back away and feel terrible for trying. And, I get it. You have things you want to do. Sometimes a husband has to stop all he is doing to listen in a manner that his wife feels heard, supported, and encouraged. You probably talked about all that. 



happiness27 said:


> It put a really big wedge between us. Because when people make up stories in their heads, their story becomes their picture of their spouse. The real spouse doesn't match that picture but it doesn't matter. Both people start feeling more and more misunderstood.
> 
> Well, it's certainly obvious why that is happening. They aren't talking openly and honestly. There's no way they can come up with solutions when both people are working off of two different sets of information. They both have to talk and listen so they both have the same information to make decisions from.
> 
> "Okay, I'm really horny now, so I can go jack off or I can wait until she's done and available. hmmmmm, maybe both." I don't know, it's a decision that he gets to make but at least he's making that decision knowing that he is loved and accepted and not with the false idea that his wife is rejecting him.


Tough to waste a good feeling of love, desire, and longing for the real live woman you love in the next room while masturbating. What a waste of an opportunity. 



happiness27 said:


> That's just a mere snippet of an example. There are other examples that are much bigger and more complex and require bigger waders.


I get it. I'm playing along. 



happiness27 said:


> It takes a lot of guts to wade deep into a relationship like this. Marriage really isn't for the faint at heart. But the faint at heart *can* experience the freedom that openness and honesty affords if they take things one small step at a time very slowly. The very bottom brick in the foundation needs to be commitment - hanging in there, not bolting and running before the miracle. People make amazing changes in their lives when they feel deeply understood and accepted.


In today's world, it takes a bit of insanity, too.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think few people really want or can deal with honesty. 

Honey, That 25 year old in the bikini by the pool is a lot hotter than you are at 55 and I've been glancing at her every time I step out on the balcony. Its OK though, I love you. 

Sex was good, but actually if you would [sexual thing that you know your partner really doesn't like], it would be a lot better.

Nope its not the dress, you've gained weight. 

You told me that same story last week - but its OK, we all know that people get forgetful when they get older. 

Sometimes when we are fcking, I'm thinking of that really hot guy / girl next door. 

You are really good in bed, but my ex was better, even if he / she was bad in other ways. 

That gift you looked so hard to find me is really sort of dumb. 

The sexy lingerie you bought for me to see on my birthday looks horrible. 



I think most people expect some level of lies in marriage. 




happiness27 said:


> Why would anyone stay in a relationship where they could not authentically exist?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I think few people really want or can deal with honesty.
> 
> Honey, That 25 year old in the bikini by the pool is a lot hotter than you are at 55 and I've been glancing at her every time I step out on the balcony. Its OK though, I love you.
> 
> ...


We've had open honest conversations about every single one of those. Yes, my husband finds other women hot and sexy. And a 25 year old down by the pool is hot and sexy and the same age as his granddaughter...womp, womp, womp...there goes the air out of THAT balloon. And, oh, that dude down there by the pool is...sitting next to...your hot wife...hey...wait a minute!!!!! lol

Sex is good but would be better...what? Anal - yeah, sorry buddy, I'm not letting my husband put his precious clean penis in same place I reserve for the toilet (sorry for those who like anal - it's all good. This is just my own personal take on it in our relationship). 

Yes, I gained weight. Time to hit the gym after slacking over the winter...

Same story? Yeah, honey, I remember you told me that...

Sometimes I'm thinking of....during sex - yeah? talk me through it, baby!

My ex was better - yes, nostalgia sex is wonderful...and yes, we've talked about past lovers and sex encounters we loved. It's great to have someone to share those stories with who isn't going to go all ballistic jealous on you. Who else am I going to share my old stories of hot sex with?

Always include a gift receipt with any gift...sometimes we don't get things right and isn't the idea for the person receiving the gift to be happy?

The sexy lingerie looks horrible? Okay, this one has never happened because it has to pass my inspection first and I'm much harder on myself than he is. So, I can't speak to that.

Openness and honesty isn't being sh*tty to someone - but it's about being able to trust someone to tell you the truth about things you can do something about. So, you wouldn't say to your spouse who has suffered a car accident - "I don't want to be around you because you look ugly." Hopefully, people get the difference between being honest and being sh*tty.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

From reading some of the stories on here, it sounds like cheaters want the best of both worlds. They want to hang onto to their lifestyles, and the benefits of marriage, and also feel like they're single and do what single people do. ''Cake eating.''


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It really is good that both of you are OK with complete honesty. I really mean that - it sounds like you have a very strong marriage. 

Unfortunately many people do not. Many have insecurities that would be triggered by this sort of thing.

BTW - what if its not anal, but he wants to dress up like a schoolgirl and have you spank him, or something else that isn't physically unpleasant but might tend to ruin your view of him. OTOH, since you are so open with him it may work to say no to an idea, without it feeling like a rejection. Again, some of us are not so lucky. 




happiness27 said:


> We've had open honest conversations about every single one of those. Yes, my husband finds other women hot and sexy. And a 25 year old down by the pool is hot and sexy and the same age as his granddaughter...womp, womp, womp...there goes the air out of THAT balloon. And, oh, that dude down there by the pool is...sitting next to...your hot wife...hey...wait a minute!!!!! lol
> 
> Sex is good but would be better...what? Anal - yeah, sorry buddy, I'm not letting my husband put his precious clean penis in same place I reserve for the toilet (sorry for those who like anal - it's all good. This is just my own personal take on it in our relationship).
> 
> ...


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> I agree and you are one helluva guy for expecting and giving openness and honesty. Did you lay out ground rules for the open marriage while you were away?


I didn't really think it through. I realize now (18 years later) that was a dumb thing to say. Maybe I thought that I would get some "cool husband" points for saying it, but really hoping that it wouldn't happen. I was wrong.

The premise of this whole thread seems to rely on only 2 choices: cheating or honesty. But I submit there is a 3rd possibility: being honest and cheating. Being open in talking to your SO about what you are thinking/feeling (mental), but leaving out what you are doing (physical).


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

My wife was raped more than once before we got married. She is very sex negative. She pretended to enjoy sex with me before we got married. Sex stopped pretty much once vows were exchanged. I should have had the marriage annulled the day after our honeymoon ended.

If she had been honest with me, I would not have married her. She wanted to be married to me. She did not feel it was her responsibility to tell the truth. Or her responsibility to care whether marriage to her would make me happy. She made it clear that marriage is not about pleasing the other person, it is each spouse for themselves.

I found out about the rapes after 7 years, 2 kids and 2 years of marriage counselling. I was actually happy to find out the truth. I thought "now we have the core issue to overcome to have a decent sex life". But her response was to insist that the rapes had no impact on our sex life and it was just being busy and my being a terrible husband that lead to the lack of sex. Bad husband on our honeymoon? Then why did you marry me? Bad husband on vacations (cruises, hiking in far away gorgeous national parks)? Then why did you keep going away with me? Why not make excuses to avoid vacations like you made excuses to avoid sex?

Now, after years of my being pleasant toward her and supporting her both financially and emotionally, she wants to be closer. She loves me in ways she did not in the early years of our marriage. She wants us to be open and honest with each other. Hah! Never going to happen. Now I am the one with secrets. Now I am the one who, if he told the truth, might cause her to leave. And I don't want her to leave. And I do not feel one iota of guilt about not sharing the truth. She set the ground rules for this marriage. Each spouse for themselves. I am just playing by her rules. Sauce for the goose and all that.

Too much pain and work to get from here to a happy marriage. I am too old and tired to embark on that process. I will settle for half a loaf. And console myself that this ensures she only gets half a loaf as well.

That is why I tell all the people in sexless marriages - get out now. Don't want until it destroys you. Stay and you risk ending up like me.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> My wife was raped more than once before we got married. She is very sex negative. She pretended to enjoy sex with me before we got married. Sex stopped pretty much once vows were exchanged. I should have had the marriage annulled the day after our honeymoon ended.
> 
> If she had been honest with me, I would not have married her. She wanted to be married to me. She did not feel it was her responsibility to tell the truth. Or her responsibility to care whether marriage to her would make me happy. She made it clear that marriage is not about pleasing the other person, it is each spouse for themselves.
> 
> ...


Sexual trauma does an especially evil kind of damage to a person. It's like getting shot with pronged arrows. It really, really f's you up for life. 

"If she had been honest with me, I would not have married her."

I can hear from your posts that you feel very angry, betrayed and bitter towards your wife.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

uhtred said:


> It really is good that both of you are OK with complete honesty. I really mean that - it sounds like you have a very strong marriage.
> 
> Unfortunately many people do not. Many have insecurities that would be triggered by this sort of thing.
> 
> BTW - what if its not anal, but he wants to *dress up like a schoolgirl and have you spank him*, or something else that isn't physically unpleasant but might tend to ruin your view of him. OTOH, since you are so open with him it may work to say no to an idea, without it feeling like a rejection. Again, some of us are not so lucky.


Fortunately I learned to drive a stick shift and @She'sStillGotIt doesn't make me do that any more.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Why cheat?
In my wife of 25 years case .....
It's mental illness, narcissism, childhood sexual abuse, and learned behavior from her mother.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> I didn't really think it through. I realize now (18 years later) that was a dumb thing to say. Maybe I thought that I would get some "cool husband" points for saying it, but really hoping that it wouldn't happen. I was wrong.
> 
> The premise of this whole thread seems to rely on only 2 choices: cheating or honesty. But I submit there is a 3rd possibility: being honest and cheating. Being open in talking to your SO about what you are thinking/feeling (mental), but leaving out what you are doing (physical).


Withholding information isn't being open and honest. 

If you and I were face to face, I think I could better convey these words with the compassion and empathy that I truly feel when I say them: Why on earth do we do these things to each other?

Back in the 60s, we referred to some of these kinds of behaviors as "playing games." It's when we say things we don't mean hoping to extract some sort of response that would be, in reality, pretty hard to extract. Like, "While I'm gone, do what you need to do" - hoping our spouse will say, "No, I want only YOU."

Or, telling our spouses *everything* EXCEPT, I'm getting some on the side but it's just physical so it doesn't count.

I'm not judging you at all. Please. I'll say again, I feel empathy and compassion in my heart for your situation because I've tried saying and doing stuff I didn't mean and got off-kilter results. 

What I feel is that it's confusing to do these kinds of mind-games and justifications. They are covering up issues that if they were at least recognized and admitted for the individual, then different choices could be made.

Any conversation is going to have consequences. If it's not an authentic conversation, then one or both parties will feel the deceit. If it's an open and honest conversation, then one or both parties will feel any number of things - and the consequences of saying what you are really thinking, feeling, doing will be what they are - maybe that's an understanding, compassionate, closer relationship - maybe it would be one or both people finally realizing they aren't a good fit for each other. In either case, openness and honesty with a significant other is personal freedom. There's nothing wrong with wishing another person well if they make a decision to leave the relationship - but that's not the only possible outcome. I think that's the one people fear the most...and the most-used justification for not embracing an open and honest relationship.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

StillSearching said:


> Why cheat?
> In my wife of 25 years case .....
> It's mental illness, narcissism, childhood sexual abuse, and learned behavior from her mother.


So are you saying you are cheating because you are angry about these aspects of your wife?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> It really is good that both of you are OK with complete honesty. I really mean that - it sounds like you have a very strong marriage.
> 
> Unfortunately many people do not. Many have insecurities that would be triggered by this sort of thing.
> 
> BTW - what if its not anal, but he wants to dress up like a schoolgirl and have you spank him, or something else that isn't physically unpleasant but might tend to ruin your view of him. OTOH, since you are so open with him it may work to say no to an idea, without it feeling like a rejection. Again, some of us are not so lucky.


I do what I want in sexual situations. And, of the two of us, the more adventurous and unexpected. I don't need toys, costumes or gadgets to drive him crazy. I don't need to play act. I love him - I love everything about him, every detail. 

We've tried many things - okay, for instance, handcuffs. I thought it was just silly and painful. Oh, it looks somehow fun in porn, I guess. But in reality, it didn't do anything for either one of us. I couldn't move around very well, which was unsatisfying and, well, my hubby isn't into forcing his will upon me or any other woman. His excitement is heightened by a woman's excitement and satisfaction - not a woman who fears for her life or is going to get raped.

We've got grandkids. The idea of screwing a school girl reminds him that he has a 27 year old granddaughter. That visual doesn't juxtapose very well. 

One thing I've found out about myself is that playacting during sex is one of my coverups for keeping someone from getting close to me emotionally. When I don't play act, I can feel what is actually going on and react to that reality. I found that what I was doing before was what I thought was expected of me and that was to do whatever he needed for his satisfaction. I wasn't receiving, I was just giving. Learning to receive affection and love when that carries a degree of risk is kind of a big deal for me. You think guys worry over their penis size, a woman has this complex genital area that porn has made some of us feel very self-conscious about. Although there's nothing wrong there for me, I do have thoughts go through my head that were never there back before pornography. All the questions: Is it okay? What does it look like? Why does he like it? (I'm not even close to being bi - extremely hetero) Who would want to put their mouth on that? Is it shaved close enough? These are things that never entered my mind before porn. I never shaved when I was young and never got any complaints. 

So these are some things that I'm working through with my husband with open/honest conversations. It's taking a lot of reassurance on his part that there is nothing wrong with anything. I'm not sure how many guys would hang in there with me through all of this before getting mad and saying "Just get over it" Thankfully, my husband is patient, understanding and persistent. But we have a lot of sex - so he's more than happy to talk about all things sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But that is sort of my point. You don't like role playing, school girls etc. That's fine. Fortunately he doesn't like those things either.

But what if he did like thins that you don't like. Some people like various sex games, its not a sign of some sort of relationship problem but just a matter of interest / preference. 

You are fortunate that your sexual interests match, but what if they didn't. What if he did really want to play games with bondage etc, but knew that you didn't enjoy those things.






happiness27 said:


> I do what I want in sexual situations. And, of the two of us, the more adventurous and unexpected. I don't need toys, costumes or gadgets to drive him crazy. I don't need to play act. I love him - I love everything about him, every detail.
> 
> We've tried many things - okay, for instance, handcuffs. I thought it was just silly and painful. Oh, it looks somehow fun in porn, I guess. But in reality, it didn't do anything for either one of us. I couldn't move around very well, which was unsatisfying and, well, my hubby isn't into forcing his will upon me or any other woman. His excitement is heightened by a woman's excitement and satisfaction - not a woman who fears for her life or is going to get raped.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> But that is sort of my point. You don't like role playing, school girls etc. That's fine. Fortunately he doesn't like those things either.
> 
> But what if he did like thins that you don't like. Some people like various sex games, its not a sign of some sort of relationship problem but just a matter of interest / preference.
> 
> You are fortunate that your sexual interests match, but what if they didn't. What if he did really want to play games with bondage etc, but knew that you didn't enjoy those things.


Yes, I see exactly what you mean. And I will answer that. I am not into bondage, BDSM, toys, gadgets, etc. If I had a partner with that bent, it would not be compatible. To be fair to the partner and the partner to me, we would not be married. I agree with you that these are preferences and I'm not judging them anymore than I would be judging a partner who was bi and would want to fulfill that in an open/swing relationship. 

My husband and I have discussed many, many topics of variations and have tried many. But when I can drive him to the brink of madness while he's lying on the bed while I describe the play of light on his body and spent 40 minutes stroking him, running my fingers gently over his pubic hair and licking him into ecstasy while he moans, he sort of *gets* why the playacting and gadgets pale by comparison. If there's a metaphor, I'm more like a cat than a circus monkey. And if I'm enjoying what I'm doing, that just seems like a much better place to be. 

Let the porn actresses do what they do for money. I've got nothing against them - there's a place in life for the services they offer. Cute costumes, if they make people feel sexy, I'm all for it. I've got a few sexy select pieces of sexy lingerie but they are very beautiful pieces of lovely fabric that feel soft against my skin. The bulk of those costumes look great on the models but, hey, I'm 5'3" and curvy so most of that stuff, if I put it on, I just laugh at how silly I look. 

Just get naked, boy, and get me next to your man body.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If he had a fetish the he couldn't live without, but which you didn't like, I agree that you would probably need to separate. 

But what if it is just a kink. What if he is happy with traditional sex, but would really like to engage in some kinks that you don't like. Its not that he can't live without them, but they are just things he has always wanted to do. Would you really want to know that he was not happy in this way that you couldn't fix? (im' not talking overall miserable, just something he wants but can never have).

Or what if there was some particular sex act that you enjoyed but knew he hated. Maybe (like a fair number of people) he really hated performing oral. Would you leave him over that? Woudl you reall want him to know that you were unhappy about it after having discussed it once?






happiness27 said:


> Yes, I see exactly what you mean. And I will answer that. I am not into bondage, BDSM, toys, gadgets, etc. If I had a partner with that bent, it would not be compatible. To be fair to the partner and the partner to me, we would not be married. I agree with you that these are preferences and I'm not judging them anymore than I would be judging a partner who was bi and would want to fulfill that in an open/swing relationship.
> 
> My husband and I have discussed many, many topics of variations and have tried many. But when I can drive him to the brink of madness while he's lying on the bed while I describe the play of light on his body and spent 40 minutes stroking him, running my fingers gently over his pubic hair and licking him into ecstasy while he moans, he sort of *gets* why the playacting and gadgets pale by comparison. If there's a metaphor, I'm more like a cat than a circus monkey. And if I'm enjoying what I'm doing, that just seems like a much better place to be.
> 
> ...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

After you have been rejected a few times being honest means dissolving the relationship?
That is what I am getting here. 
Or since I don't have anything interesting enough to hide, Honesty works for me.
I think that there are always secrets. I think there are things we just don't share, with anyone.
That secret could even be "I wish she wouldn't share that with me."


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> "Why Cheat? Why not be honest and open?"


Because saying: "Dear, we have to talk! I want to have an affair, would that be OK?" just wouldn't... oh. That's were I came in, isn't it?

Looking back on it, my story seems like a nightmare. But we are now at year 30, so it seems to have worked out OK.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > This information was not shared with me until 10+ years later. That was when she decided I could finally "handle" the truth. So is that selective honesty on her terms?
> ...


Well, like others have said in this forum, when you try to have some kind of an open relationship the only one that really is "open" is the wife. Somehow the guys will all believe the W about the open status and offer their services to the lonely war bride. But when the H states the same thing, very few ladies believe him.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> Well, like others have said in this forum, when you try to have some kind of an open relationship the only one that really is "open" is the wife. Somehow the guys will all believe the W about the open status and offer their services to the lonely war bride. But when the H states the same thing, very few ladies believe him.


Are you saying you tried to have sex with other women during that time but when you were honest and said you were married in an open relationship, that women didn't believe you?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> If he had a fetish the he couldn't live without, but which you didn't like, I agree that you would probably need to separate.
> 
> But what if it is just a kink. What if he is happy with traditional sex, but would really like to engage in some kinks that you don't like. Its not that he can't live without them, but they are just things he has always wanted to do. Would you really want to know that he was not happy in this way that you couldn't fix? (im' not talking overall miserable, just something he wants but can never have).
> 
> Or what if there was some particular sex act that you enjoyed but knew he hated. Maybe (like a fair number of people) he really hated performing oral. Would you leave him over that? Woudl you reall want him to know that you were unhappy about it after having discussed it once?



Yes. Why wouldn't I want to know that? And I do know those things. And I tell him what I like and don't like. 

We've done a LOT of so-called kinky things. Some of them are *okay* but we talk a LOT over MANY years and I seriously don't think we've left anything out as I have been the initiator of these explorations and conversations. 

One thing we haven't tried is my husband having sex with other women. That is something I'm open to if the right opportunity arises but it hasn't yet. People who have the impression the swinger world is easy haven't actually tried it. It's a lot more complex than it appears on the surface - getting four people to all agree they have "chemistry" is at least 2X harder than getting two people to agree on that.

At this point, he doesn't have any kinks he wants to try that I don't like. 

I'm not that into oral on me. That would never be a deal breaker. 

I do see that I'm getting a lot of "what if" scenarios and I appreciate the questions.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

*Happiness 27
Just get naked, boy, and get me next to your man body.*

My kind of woman.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It sounds like you have never had a situation where there was something one of you really wanted and the other didn't. If that did happen, what would you do? After talking about it and realizing that there wasn't a happy compromise - would you keep talking about it whenever it bothered you, or would you keep it quiet to avoid disturbing your partner?




happiness27 said:


> Yes. Why wouldn't I want to know that? And I do know those things. And I tell him what I like and don't like.
> 
> We've done a LOT of so-called kinky things. Some of them are *okay* but we talk a LOT over MANY years and I seriously don't think we've left anything out as I have been the initiator of these explorations and conversations.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> It sounds like you have never had a situation where there was something one of you really wanted and the other didn't. If that did happen, what would you do? After talking about it and realizing that there wasn't a happy compromise - would you keep talking about it whenever it bothered you, or would you keep it quiet to avoid disturbing your partner?


I'm not how much further out you might be referring to. But, yes, of course, we would keep talking about it. We have sex discussions every day and we have sex every day. I would never keep quiet to keep from "disturbing" my partner and I don't expect him to either. 

He would like to have sex with other women. I listened and have agreed to a swinging lifestyle. We went to a club and played naked volleyball with a bunch of other fun folks. And had discussions with other fun couples who have experience in the lifestyle. It was fun and my husband felt a lot of freedom. 

However, and bear with me, I'm laughing because - HILARIOUSLY - the swinging lifestyle is not all it's cracked up to be. We have not found another compatible couple yet because, as I said before, finding a single sex partner is difficult enough. Finding two more with the "right chemistry" is exponentially difficult.

I will ask my husband tonight if there is anything else that he feels like he can't ask of me that he really, really wants. I don't have anything myself. My beautiful man and my marriage are deeply appreciated very much over all the crazy days of my past. But, sure, I'll keep going. I love my husband and he deserves a happy fulfilled life just as much as I do even though our sexuality attitudes are different.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> Are you saying you tried to have sex with other women during that time but when you were honest and said you were married in an open relationship, that women didn't believe you?


Basically yes. They thought I was a typical married guy screwing around behind his W's back.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> Basically yes. They thought I was a typical married guy screwing around behind his W's back.


This is often the case. Swinging is far easier for men, because you do it together with your wife, and everyone plays - or no one does. (The greatest obstacle is the predominance of bisexual women, as that's the focus for many, and not one we share.) So, it can be difficult to find another couple where all the attractions are sufficiently mutual to move forward. Even then, many aren't a good enough all-around match to see repeatedly - we've only found a handful over more than a decade. Those more than compensate for the more mediocre experiences. (In our experience, the best have usually been doctors and nurses, and the worst - i.e., selfish, manipulative - have usually been in sales/marketing.)

Our open relationship works because we have good balance. I've been able to find fewer potential partners, but they've tended to last long term and with greater frequency. However, there is more to it than the ease in finding partners. My wife (and other women we know in open relationships) says that while it is very easy to find a _willing_ man, it is difficult to find one who also has a good personality, _and_ is a good lover. So, most have come from couples we've met while swinging, as they're known to both of us, we know if they're any good, and we know that they aren't lying or cheating.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> three second orgasm.


There are orgasms that short????

Sorry for the TJ but that caught me by surprise.


I'm so in agreement with your thought process.

I'm not into sharing at all and neither is Mrs. Conan, we are both intensely territorial, but openness is freedom and strength in a relationship as long as love, confidence and commitment are present as well.

3 seconds??!!!??


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You are both lucky to have found such compatible partners. 



happiness27 said:


> I'm not how much further out you might be referring to. But, yes, of course, we would keep talking about it. We have sex discussions every day and we have sex every day. I would never keep quiet to keep from "disturbing" my partner and I don't expect him to either.
> 
> He would like to have sex with other women. I listened and have agreed to a swinging lifestyle. We went to a club and played naked volleyball with a bunch of other fun folks. And had discussions with other fun couples who have experience in the lifestyle. It was fun and my husband felt a lot of freedom.
> 
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> There are orgasms that short????
> 
> Sorry for the TJ but that caught me by surprise.
> 
> ...


So, how long would you say an orgasm is for a man from peak to downward? I used to refer to it as "6 seconds of bliss" just to split the difference because for women, it's a bit longer but it depends on where you start and stop the measure. *sidebar*


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> This is often the case. Swinging is far easier for men, because you do it together with your wife, and everyone plays - or no one does. (The greatest obstacle is the predominance of bisexual women, as that's the focus for many, and not one we share.) So, it can be difficult to find another couple where all the attractions are sufficiently mutual to move forward. Even then, many aren't a good enough all-around match to see repeatedly - we've only found a handful over more than a decade. Those more than compensate for the more mediocre experiences. (In our experience, the best have usually been doctors and nurses, and the worst - i.e., selfish, manipulative - have usually been in sales/marketing.)
> 
> Our open relationship works because we have good balance. I've been able to find fewer potential partners, but they've tended to last long term and with greater frequency. However, there is more to it than the ease in finding partners. My wife (and other women we know in open relationships) says that while it is very easy to find a _willing_ man, it is difficult to find one who also has a good personality, _and_ is a good lover. So, most have come from couples we've met while swinging, as they're known to both of us, we know if they're any good, and we know that they aren't lying or cheating.


Agreed. I wouldn't go so far as to say everyone in the swinging lifestyle is honest but the group as a whole really puts the squeeze on the liars and cheats and shuns them since a large part of the premise of swinging is openness and honesty. It's probably the only group of people I've been around in real life that will tell you like it is to your face about sex. Very accepting, though, also.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> So, how long would you say an orgasm is for a man from peak to downward? I used to refer to it as "6 seconds of bliss" just to split the difference because for women, it's a bit longer but it depends on where you start and stop the measure. *sidebar*


I'm good for at least 10 seconds of incoherent noises every time, sometimes 30 seconds and the occasional 1 minute tidal wave. Mrs. Conan is usually spasms for 30 or so seconds but occasionally hits 45 seconds and rarely a minute but her climaxes are so strong that I think she sometimes wills it to stop so she doesn't pass out.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I'm good for at least 10 seconds of incoherent noises every time, sometimes 30 seconds and the occasional 1 minute tidal wave. Mrs. Conan is usually spasms for 30 or so seconds but occasionally hits 45 seconds and rarely a minute but her climaxes are so strong that I think she sometimes wills it to stop so she doesn't pass out.


You should get checked. That might be a seizure.


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## N2itive (Jan 19, 2012)

Communication is key.


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## marriedbutalone (Mar 18, 2010)

I'm trying to figure out how to navigate here ...hopefully this reply will register...
My first question is how do I change my name " married but alone" 
Next on topic of why cheat
It's my belief that first off everyone's different,thinks different ,etc
Myself I'm not a cheat,I'm all for being open and honest in a relationship period.
Others just dont feel that way 
Problems arise when a cheater and s non cheater get together 
There's no real overall answer as to why cheaters cheat,its on an individual basis,some reasons may be deep seated like from childhood issues for example,other reasons may be selfishness,immaturity, etc etc .so it's easier said than done but if your a non cheater hooked up with a cheater and now you are face to face with that knowledge,but your still in love etc,I say cut your losses and run dont walk away,if they were your soulmate or twin flame or whatever they would not,I repeat ,Would Not cheat,yes that simple,move on ...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Pepe1970 said:


> The thing with honesty is
> that you have to trust your spouse enough to know that you are safe with him/her.
> *That means that you have to let your spouse know about all your complexes, inferiorities, personal opinions about certain subjects.
> *In other words you're abandoning yourself to someone else and hope that other person be the same crystal clear with you.
> ...


On the bolded part....NO!

Let them figure that out on their own.
No need to hang the 'kick me' sign...on your own.

They may, up to the point of your confession, like you.

After you open up..... 
After you open your' big fat mouth and let out the facts?

They will look at you 'differently'. Not in a Godly, a good-ly way.
Uh, not likely!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MAJDEATH said:


> Basically yes. They thought I was a typical married guy screwing around behind his W's back.


Actually, I think it goes deeper than that even and is a real Catch-22. 

I think even if they believe or even know that it is true, many are still turned off by it and will pass even if they know you have a legitimate Hall Pass. 

The catch here is if they know you have a Hall Pass and know you have a wife that lets you play on the side, in the back of their mind that means a couple different things- 

- one is you wife doesn't care enough about you to keep you to herself in bed so you must not be that good in the first place.

- and the other is that means there is absolutely no doubt that she would be the side piece to just drain your tank and women have very well developed deflector shields to keep themselves from knowingly being side-pieces. 

I honestly and truly believe men have better odds actually cheating than they do getting a halfway decent woman to be a play partner for an open marriage with the wife's consent. 

When I was in the swinging lifestyle, I knew guys that did have their wives consent to have a playmate(s) on the side, but they pretended to be cheating because it was easier to pick up other chicks that way. 

In other words they were fake cheating. 

They were honest to their wives and were not cheating in the classic sense. But they were deceiving the OW into thinking they were having an affair.

How messed up was that???????? :-O

That is a bad commentary on both the men and the women. It's bad on the men because they were being dishonest and using false pretenses. But it also shows the dark side of the women too because that shows they would rather knowingly stab a married woman in the back if she thought she could steal her husband, rather be with him under consent and agreement. 

IMHO open marriage is usually a fools game for the average man and just simply does not usually work out well for him. 

Men will line up down the street and around the corner for a woman with a Hall Pass. 

But a man with a Hal Pass is avoided like the plague in most instances.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> On the bolded part....NO!
> 
> Let them figure that out on their own.
> No need to hang the 'kick me' sign...on your own.
> ...


One of the biggest fears my husband had was "If you knew the real me, you'd leave me" which kept him locked inside himself with no one to share the most intimate difficulties and secrets. But as we shared more and more over the years, that statement was proved wrong. 

I love my husband for all he is - all of it. And he loves me for all I am - all of it. We know the good the bad and the ugly about each other. We are closer and more trusting because of the acceptance we have extended to each other. Being able to be open and honest with each other released the demons of shame and guilt tucked away in places where they didn't actually get hidden - they just kept coming out sideways. Sharing them and being accepted is empowering - because when you recognize and shed light on real issues, you then have the power to release them and decide if you want to make a change or not. The freedom is immense.

I say this to put out there that it IS possible to love and accept another person completely no matter what instead of saying "I'll love you *up to this point* but after that, you're damaged goods."

And I also put this out there to point out that one of the biggest fears that people may have about living authentically is being accepted and cherished. Our song is "Broken Road" if that gives you any idea of how grateful we are to be together.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Actually, I think it goes deeper than that even and is a real Catch-22.
> 
> I think even if they believe or even know that it is true, many are still turned off by it and will pass even if they know you have a legitimate Hall Pass.
> 
> ...


Interesting insights.

I did want to point out one thing, though, and that is that sometimes a spouse has health issues - temporary or not - wherein they choose not to participate in the lifestyle. 

I guess it's interesting that even within the lifestyle - PEOPLE ARE STILL PEOPLE. I don't think the lifestyle solves any marital issues for people who have not resolved things between each other.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> You should get checked. That might be a seizure.


Yes, she had a seizure...

After he seized her, rode roughshod....shook her to her roots.


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## Ditch (Apr 16, 2014)

When love and cherish fades after children and or time, and the intimacy stops. Normal people of both sexes have sexual needs and desires.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

marriedbutalone said:


> I'm trying to figure out how to navigate here ...hopefully this reply will register...
> My first question is how do I change my name " married but alone"
> Next on topic of why cheat
> It's my belief that first off everyone's different,thinks different ,etc
> ...


"Cut your losses and run" isn't a solution for everyone. My husband and I have worked really hard and gotten down to some deep-seated discussions. Cheating is a pattern that can be broken when two people are committed to working on the relationship and each individual. I will say it is more likely that people will cut and run because working through things is a lot harder. 

I'm not talking about couples where one partner is not committed to working on the relationship. I'm talking about two people where one or both have cheating behaviors but they are both willing to take a hard look at themselves and keep an honest/open dialogue going. 

And I'm also talking about creating an honest/open dialogue relationship from the get-go - and calling each other out on any B.S.


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## marriedbutalone (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree it takes two ,if one is not interested the other should cut their losses and leave,my opinion.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> Actually, I think it goes deeper than that even and is a real Catch-22.
> 
> I think even if they believe or even know that it is true, many are still turned off by it and will pass even if they know you have a legitimate Hall Pass.
> 
> ...


That's the old saying about women (or men too): they only want you if somebody else wants you too. If you have consent it's no longer a challenge. My W and I have known women that only played around with married men - they wanted the challenge and they didn't want a full-time BF hanging around all the time.


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