# Having "the talk"



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

I need to have the talk with my H. About how neither of us are happy, and I don't see a way around this without seperating at least.. yadda yadda yadda... basically about me moving out.

It really shouldn't come as a big shock to him, as we have had this discussion about him dropping his porn addiction or I would leave prior to this... 

I want him to remain civil and calm throughout this conversation. I do not want old things brought up. I want to let him know that I will be here for him to support him if he wants counseling or whatever he needs to get through his addiction, if he chooses to quit. I want him to know that I will not keep his children away from him. And I also want him to understand that there is no chance of us ever being together.. too much damage has been done for me to get past it. 

I went and discussed my options with an attorney. And basically it boils down to.. I want a quick easy smooth divorce. I want to be able to get my own apartment not far from where we are now, so that my kids can still attend their same schools, and they can still see their father without much hassle and as much as he or they want. 

My kids will be leaving tomorrow to spend some time with their grandparents for the weekend. So i figure this will be a good time to get the ball rolling. 

My question is.. How can I bring this up without him feeling like he needs to defend himself? Or without feeling like I blame him for EVERYTHING thats wrong? I admit the majority of them are his fault.. but I know I am partly to blame for holding it all in for so long. I could really use some pointers on how to get us to both keep our cool for this conversation??!!


----------



## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

You need to focus on what YOU want and need. Don't play the blame game at all. The water under the bridge is just that - water under the bridge. Keep the discussion on YOU.


----------



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

lol.. I'm not a drinker, and I feel like i need a drink for this conversation.. 

I just want us to be able to be stable parents to our kids even after its all over.. is that so much to ask? I want this to be as little of an event as possible.. smooth and over.


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Lots of "I" statements, "I need to move on. . . " Write them out and be sure to practice. Also, be sure to start with something about the kids, "I want us to be friends for the sake of our kids. . . " You do need to explain in one or two brief sentences, the basic reason(s) even if you have told him, or even if he "should" know, but keep to the "contract" (I expected x, it didn't happen, and as I said before, If X didn't happen, I would leave). Then finish with something positive again--bury the bad stuff in the middle, so to speak, what we call an "oreo comment," possitive cookies on the outside, soft "criticism" in the middle.

Good luck.


----------



## Claire (May 1, 2009)

Ok, my turn to TRY to give you advice.. I think you know we have similar situations, and while he isn't an alcoholic.. the main crux of the issues in my situation are that HE IS the main problem... like you , yes, I take some of the blame.. but HE is the one that had an affair, HE is the one that never tried to make real amends and so on.

So when the opportunity came to have the conversation about how unhappy I was I did not hold back (except telling him he makes me cringe!).. but Did tell him, that I was unhappy, that I felt I had done more than my fair share to make things better and saw little or no evidence of him ever willing to change to make things better... and that he KNOWS i have begged him to be different and that I was tired of begging, and worn down and frankly didn't know if it was to the point of no return. I was also quick to point out, the things that were positive about him.. such as being a great father... so it wasn't all a total tear down on him.. I also made a point to say I was not faultless, I also made a point to say that no matter which direction we went as married or not, that my main goal was to stay friends for the sake of our children..that I didn't want things to ever get so ugly that we couldn't get along and celebrate things like birthdays etc with our children.. FOR THEM as well as our sakes. 

He asked me at that point if I wanted him to move out and I said no not yet b/c I was so shocked that we were having this conversation... even though I had been thinking it for quite a while.. the conversation itself sort of got sprung on me.


Now, I haven't spoken with an attorney yet, but my mother, who divorced my father while my brother was still in the house.. has told me under no circumstances am "I" to leave the house. If anyone does any moving it needs to be him. I'm not sure what your attorney has advised you but make sure you check with him on how the laws are written and do everything by the book... the reason I say this.. my father was an abusive drunk and the night she left he was in one of his abusive rages and kicking her out the back door, told her to leave and not come back... and she did... now, she didn't LEAVE US.. I was 18 at the time, and my brother was 14. She left and got a hotel to be safe from him really... in all the abusive years he had been to her, he had never directed that anger and me or my brother, so it wasn't an issue that she was leaving him in charge of kids or anything.. but my father... clever ass that he is.. managed to TWIST it all around, and say that SHE left ..he didn't want her to and guess what... HE got EVERYTHING and she had to PAY HIM for a while ... can you believe that crap. 

My point is.. they both knew that she didn't "LEAVE" to deserve the end result she got, but he was smart and he got a great attorney, and they played the semantics game and they won... simply because SHE LEFT (so he wouldnt' be this hell out of her that night.. but never mind that...she walked out of the house).. so please just be clear on the technical rights in that aspect ok!

Good luck today, i'll be thinking of you.


----------



## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Here are some tips for having "the talk" from one of my many books on divorce:


Use "I" statements (as mentioned previously)
Use natural language
Do not blame him for your decision. Model peaceful behavior.
Be clear that it is over.
Do not discuss proposals about the details of the divorce.
Do not retaliate if he attacks or criticizes you.
Reassure him that you want to work with him to achieve fairness and the best arrangement for all of you.
Tell him there is no hurry to resolve everything and that you will wait until he's ready.

Obviously that last bullet point doesn't mean he can just go months without responding.

Remember - your goal is to have a 'good' (i.e., civil) divorce hopefully using mediation instead of going to trial.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Sufficiently Breathless-
I looked at your other threads. Before you go and do something irreversible, I have just one question:

Is it possible that his porn use got ramped up because he was trying to make you notice him? I don't like to take sides, so I always try and imagine what a thread would be like if it were posted by the other spouse.

"She has not wanted me to touch her in 2 years..." etc.

He certainly sounds unhealthy... but could it boil down to an ego clash?


----------



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

His addiction started way before I stopped sleeping with him.. its been going on for most of our marriage... 

It's not only his addiction.. its his emotional abuse.. his financial abuse (cuz when i threatened to leave if he didnt quit his porn he took control of all the money and closed all of our joint accounts, wont give me money for food or anything)... his possible sexual abuse (ie watchign porn with our daughter sitting in his lap, recording porn on our DVR which my kids know how to watch a recorded movie! ect ect)...

I just don't see a way out.. I'm repulsed by his addiction and his behavior over the last 10 years. I can not fathom even being here anymore. And I can not leave my kids to grow up seeing any more of this.. I just hope they aren't already fu*ked up completely....


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Sufficiently Breathless said:


> his possible sexual abuse (ie watchign porn with our daughter sitting in his lap


Worrying for sure... 

How long ago did you stop sleeping with him?


----------



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

the last time we had sex was in april.. but thats only because i threw him a bone cuz it was our anniversary. I have not withheld on him completely.. 

but before april was december.. so we've had sex 2 times in the last 6 months... and I am not inclined to do it again with him.. ever.. My 13 year old cousin finding a porn in the backseat of his car was the limit with me.. now my whole family knows.. and I feel utterly embarassed and stupid.


----------



## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Well... a man that sex starved will gravitate towards some outlet or other. He sounds very childish from the way you tell it. You could still give him an ultimatum - a real one. But that would only work if you still love him deep down. However, it sounds as if that particular flame has nearly flickered out.

One thing I don't understand is, why he continues to want to stay with you, given that he is sex mad, and he's not getting any, plus home life sounds like hell on all sides? Is he having an affair?


----------



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

I really don't know if he is having an affair or not... and honestly I don't care. Sad aint it? 

I have a suspicion he may be, lately he has been very controlling and demanding. For example I ran to the store quick to pick up a few things, he text messeged me 4 times in 20 minutes asking where the hell I was.. all day while he is at work he texts me and asks what I am doing, where I am, what I will be doing later. Trust me he doesn't care. I think he is checking up on me to see if I have left yet. Or possibly he is afraid I will have an affair because he already is?? I am not having one.. and I never would.. honestly don't think I want another relationship ever again. Is too much pain and torture to deal with.

I don't know.. I just know I can't stand it anymore... I am sick of being codependant.. I am going insane staying here. Every day feels like I am standing outside my marriage looking in, and wondering.. why are these people still together??


----------



## Claire (May 1, 2009)

Bless you heart.. I wish I could give you a hug.

Interesting.. last sex we had was a bone toss from me on our anniversary in April as well LOL. aaah.. My husband, I don't think his porn issues are as bad as your husbands by a mile, but I've been following up behind him every morning since I get up first and he stays up behind me and checking the computer history. And have found some NOT so pleasant pornography photos, that he tried to throw away...but didn't succeed, and then I see all sorts of history of him searching racy pictures. It is ridiculous to me that he isn't erasing all of this since it is the laptop that my two tween aged boys use... but I'm not calling it to his attention, just deleting myself as In my opinion... he is on probation at the moment and shouldn't be doing ANYTHING that would get him on my poor side and he knows it... so letting him dig his own grave if this is how he is going to be..but since I've been holding back in the sex department this has gotten much more prevalent, along with the degrading sexual comments (which of course are all a joke.. I should lighten up)pffft. 

was one thing when it was all just about me and him and nothing being fulfilling, but now that he is pulling drunks on the weekends and my children are witnessing and COMMENTING on it... and leaving porn trails behind for the boys to find.. it is just...grrrrrrrr., I so feel your pain.

Let me guess.. he admits to the drinking and porn..but to him it is harmless and you make a bigger deal out of it than it is?... at least thats the way it is here.


----------



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

Mine thinks the porn is no big deal as well.. but in the same breath will say "it's just not that easy to quit" ... WELL DUH!! cuz he's addicted!!

I feel ya girl.. same boat different water.. sucks huh


----------



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

Only a couple more hours until he comes home from work and we have the talk... 

I'm scared.. yet hopeful. I want something better.. for the both of us and our kids.


----------



## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Good luck! Remember to focus on YOU and YOUR NEEDS.

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

I almost chickened out and thought about not having the talk... but he made it REALLY easy to change my mind!!

When he came home from work, I told him I was going to run to the store quick and get coffee filters, or I would die tomorrow morning without my coffee. He was mowing the lawn at the time, so off I went to the store.... 

I got back home and he was in the house.. WATCHING A PORN!! He quick tried to turn it off and hide it, play like he was watching something completely different.

So I turned off the TV, sat across the room from him and said.. we need to talk... 

It went really well, I'm shocked. Normally when I talk to him he throws a fit and blames me for everything. But I calmly explained to him how I feel, and how I think there isn't a way for us to fix it. I told him, after 10 years of this porn issue between us, I don't even really care if he watches it anymore, its the fact that my kids have been exposed to it that drives me up a wall. I let him know that I had built up a wall, so that his addiction wouldn't hurt me anymore, and I didn't think there was a way to bring that wall down.

He didn't say much... but a few things he did say.. really made me realize, he doesn't want this marriage either. I asked him, why he wanted me to stay, if it was because he wanted the marriage to work, or if it was because he doesn't want to be away from his kids. He said it was 90% about being away from his kids. 

I explained to him that I don't want to take the kids away from him, or him away from the kids. But I do not want my kids growing up thinking that this is what a NORMAL marriage is like. He agreed. 

He said he wants to make it work, he doesn't want me to leave. He mentioned counseling, but I reminded him that I don't know if I could ever trust him again. We tried counseling before, and he quit. He told me that he wasn't consciencely chosing porn over me. But I told him that was how I felt, when I told him the first time I would leave if he didn't quit, and he still continued to use porn daily. 

Tomorrow when he gets home we are going to sit down and figure out where to go from here. If I should move out... if we should file for seperation right away.. if we should both go in and talk to an attorney.

The talk went better than I had hoped. And I'm glad we were both able to maintain adult like behavior and not explode on each other. After we talked we even joked a little bit, and talked about old times, when we first started dating. I asked him if he thought we married to young.. he said yeah. But all in all.. we had a really good talk. Hopefully we can maintain that mindframe throughout whatever else the future brings.


----------



## Claire (May 1, 2009)

Im so glad it went well for you. I hope it continues to go this way, just be prepared for the inevitable bumps in the road.

May I ask you why you keep saying YOU need to move out? Since you will have the kids, why aren't you staying put to keep it simple for them and asking him to go? just curious. 

The reason I ask is b/c everytime I imagine us separating, I see me leaving too, but then when I stop and think about it, it makes no sense...


----------



## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

Sufficiently Breathless,

Great job! Sounds like you handled it well. I bet you're feeling a little more liberated today and like a burden has been lifted off your shoulders. There's still much to do but a great start.

You mentioned "file for separation". Does your state require that? If not, are you filing for a legal separation in hopes of working on your problems and possibly reconciling?


----------



## Sufficiently Breathless (May 18, 2009)

Claire~ I see me leaving because even with child support I would not be able to pay for this house. Also the house is crumbling down around me.. there are so many repairs that need to be done, I can not afford the upkeep, nor can I see this place being safe for the kids to be in for too much longer. For example our deck in the backyard is rotted, I fear the kids will fall through it and get hurt, or a rusty nail will go through their foot, so I recently started tearing it down, however there is no step behind the back door, so either a new deck needs to be put on, or I need to build some steps.

Anyway, I really don't care to stay in the house. When the divorce starts I'm sure the lawyers are going to push for it to be sold and we split the profit. So we are going to have to move anyway. 

D8zed ~ I only mention filing for seperation, because I think its the first step? Not sure, just want to do the legal thing to the T, make sure all the I's are dotted...

I think a part of me is hoping, and really wanting us to be good friends at the end of this, not only for our kids, but for us as well. I think we can be great friends, we just don't work as a married couple.

My state does not require filing for seperation, I could go straight to the divorce proceedings. I think I am just trying to ease into it all, make it less of a shock, and give the reality of us being apart time to settle in before the divorce is thrown in. After all we have been together for 15 years, married for 13. This change is going to be a big one for both of us. Also want to be able to act like mature adults and figure out how we are going to decide everything legally before we go to the divorce lawyer. I want to make it fair for the both of us, and maybe a seperation before the divorce will give us time to decide what we both want?

That all being said, I'm not sure exactly what we are going to do yet. We are going to sit down and decide all of that tonight. What steps to take next. I hope it all goes as well as last night did... 

Thank you both for your support! 
SB


----------



## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

SB,

Just keep in mind there is no legal reason for filing for a separation. In fact, if you did file for a separation, you'd need to pay the lawyers to get everything in order. Then, if you decide to file for divorce 6 months later, you'd need to pay the lawyers AGAIN to do the paperwork.

Point is, if you know you're going to divorce, go straight to the divorce route.

Sounds like you two have a fairly decent 'working relationship' so you may be able to go the mediation route and save some $$$. 

Be sure to buy or check out a book on divorce before going too far. The one I have found the most helpful is "A Man's Guide to a Civilized Divorce". Although it may sound like it's written for guys, everyone would find it useful. It's very straightforward and easy to follow.


----------

