# Wife said I could get BJ's from other women!



## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Well, she actually meant it! I was talking to her about our intimacy issues and started getting into variety of sexual acts. When I mentioned oral sex, she flat out told me that I can go out and get all the BJ's I wanted, but that I just cant have any emotional attachments.... I honestly didnt know what to think! I thought she was joking, but she wasnt. She used to do it for me when we were younger but just doesnt want to anymore. What do you guys make of this?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Why not ask her?


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I did, she just said thats how she feels about BJ's....


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

My guess...she's confident that you'd never do that, so she threw that out to make you back off. She gambled that you'd backtrack, and leave her alone - "No, sweetie, I could never do that! I'm sorry I brought it up."

My W told me things along those lines before. The last time she did it, I smiled and told her, "Great! I'll do that." I went for my keys, and she quickly blocked my exit. Haven't heard those comments any longer.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Good luck with that, OP. The only way that will happen is if you pay for them. Now, if she gives you permission for a mistress, you have a chance at the full range of activities, including BJs. Try to negotiate that option!


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## lfortender (Sep 18, 2012)

How can you know if she's telling the truth or just playing with you? Like our friends told you above this message, try it and ask her really why she doesnt want.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Are BJ's really that important? Or is this something wives are just expected to do even if if they don't like it, meaning husbands are entitled to them? I'm genuinely curious here as I don't mind giving them my husband, but maybe some women just don't care for them. Is that a crime?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

McMuffin said:


> Well, she actually meant it! I was talking to her about our intimacy issues and started getting into variety of sexual acts. When I mentioned oral sex, she flat out told me that I can go out and get all the BJ's I wanted, but that I just cant have any emotional attachments.... I honestly didnt know what to think! I thought she was joking, but she wasnt. She used to do it for me when we were younger but just doesnt want to anymore. What do you guys make of this?


She either believes you'd never do it or she doesn't care WTF you do anymore as long as she can still keep you around for stuff like bills, cars, money, etc...

Either way it wouldn't make me too happy.

Tell her you'll give it a try but can't promise anything considering you already have an inherent emotional attachment to blow jobs.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

lifeistooshort: I think that's something that each couple needs to communicate.

For my husband, BJ's aren't necessarily dealbreakers - he's happy with them once in a while but he doesn't demand them. I have been with men in the past, though, who were clear in their desires for frequent BJ's.

As for me, I don't mind giving my partner a BJ. However, I have to say I've appreciated my husband's approach, as it can be hard on the jaw after a while 

But that's something we have worked out and talked about. It's not "right" or "wrong". It's just what works in our relationship.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Are BJ's really that important?


Yes.



> Or is this something wives are just expected to do even if if they don't like it, meaning husbands are entitled to them?


No, in a perfect world you'd make sure someone was sexually compatible with you before you married the...WAIT!...OP did that.
Oh damn.



> I'm genuinely curious here as I don't mind giving them my husband, but maybe some women just don't care for them. Is that a crime?


No,
Bait & switch should be.

OP should demand an answer as to why she has changed her mind about giving BJ's it may be a change in him that she doesn't want to tell him about.

Are you showering regularly OP?


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Reason for the BJ conversation... she gets frequent kidney infections. Why... I dont know...neither does she. When she takes the anitbiotics, its 28 days of no sex. Our current deal was a minimum of once per week, recently it had become twice per week until her kidney infection. So..... I started explaining other sexual acts; anal, oral, handjob. She immediately knocked down anal and oral, and said she didnt really want to do handjobs, but it was the lesser evil of the three....

She used to do it willingly... never a complaint, only that I don't unload in her mouth.. Yes I shower daily, but two reasons why that she listed was the smell and taste... when I asked her to elaborate, she said it really was the same when she was doing it before, but then said "i guess being a mom changes you into not wanting to do that stuff..." and yes that was a direct quote. I keep myself meticulously trimmed everywhere (everywhere!), and always ensure that I am clean. I have been trying to smell myself today, but I just cant seem to get my head down there that far... lol


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> My guess...she's confident that you'd never do that, so she threw that out to make you back off. She gambled that you'd backtrack, and leave her alone - "No, sweetie, I could never do that! I'm sorry I brought it up."
> 
> My W told me things along those lines before. The last time she did it, I smiled and told her, "Great! I'll do that." I went for my keys, and she quickly blocked my exit. Haven't heard those comments any longer.



This is so very true....


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

if its okay to get BJs elsewhere, its okay for her to get tongue elsewhere..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

soulseer said:


> if its okay to get BJs elsewhere, its okay for her to get tongue elsewhere..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly what I said to her is how would you feel if I told you to go have someone else give you oral sex? She just dismissed it..


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> What do you guys make of this?


It's probably most likely that she's bluffing and counting on you being afraid to carry through on her offer. However, it is possible that she just sees sex with you as one more chore that she is happy to outsource.

I suggest you take her seriously and start including her on your plans. Get some specifics. Is it OK if you get your BJs from one of her friends? How about neighbors? Word will surely get out if you start frequenting the singles bars around town and getting chummy with some women. Should you be honest with people who approach you? Or should you have a cover story to explain your behavior. Are prostitutes OK? You could peruse some escort websites together and put together a budget.

There's a good chance that, when you start pressing for specifics, she will rescind her offer. If she doesn't, then she's serious. She really doesn't care if you have sex with other women. What you do with that is up to you.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Are BJ's really that important? Or is this something wives are just expected to do even if if they don't like it, meaning husbands are entitled to them? I'm genuinely curious here as I don't mind giving them my husband, but maybe some women just don't care for them. Is that a crime?


BJs are important. And wives are expected to do something along those lines with their husbands. It doesn't have to be world class. And certainly a legitimate issue that precludes them (such as a past sexual assault) is fine.

But a flat refusal by a wife to do this for her husband is usually just because the wife can't be bothered to do something nice for her husband. At that point, it isn't even about the BJ. It's about her refusal to be nice to him.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

You should ask her if, when you get a blowjob, does she want to know about it or not? 

Also here is my issue with paying for blowjobs - from what I have heard and seen on HBO series and reality shows - blowjobs cost half of what sex does. I would charge twice what sex goes for. Not because I don't like the act but because you have to participate so much more than with sex.

To quote samantha from Sex and the City - they don't call it a job for nothing.

Also, not to imply you would have to pay for one.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I would worry that she simply doesn't want to bother to do it and also that she no longer cares if you get it elsewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Why don't you invite her to sit down at the computer with you. Bring up Sexsearch and Adult Friend Finder and tell her you're going to make profiles on them to get your BJ's and you'd like her input as to what exactly should you put up. Should you put up a full-on nude pic of you with a hard on, or just a close up of the hard on? What should your username be? Which choices should you check off as to what exactly you're looking for? Where can you arrange to meet for these BJ's? Can it be at home or would it have to be at a motel or in your car? 

Don't take no for an answer - act like you're all serious about it and you really want her input because you don't want to do anything she doesn't approve of.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> Why don't you invite her to sit down at the computer with you. Bring up Sexsearch and Adult Friend Finder and tell her you're going to make profiles on them to get your BJ's and you'd like her input as to what exactly should you put up. Should you put up a full-on nude pic of you with a hard on, or just a close up of the hard on? What should your username be? Which choices should you check off as to what exactly you're looking for? Where can you arrange to meet for these BJ's? Can it be at home or would it have to be at a motel or in your car?
> 
> Don't take no for an answer - act like you're all serious about it and you really want her input because you don't want to do anything she doesn't approve of.


:rofl:

Hell this could be potentially priceless, OP - do this! :smthumbup:


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

This discussion feels like a nightmare waiting to happen.

Correction: a nightmare that has happened and now trying to figure out how to make it stop.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Can't speak for your wife but here is my take on what it would mean if I said it to my partner....

"I no longer love or care about you. You can go and get BJ's else where but no emotional attachment because I still want to be in control of you not some other woman. I don't want a divorce because I am happy with my lifestyle."

BTW I would never, ever say this as I would rather divorce than stay in a marriage like that. 

The allowing of BJ's as long as you have no emotional attachment to me says she is OK with you paying for them. She understands the power a loving BJ has over a man so she wants you to pay for them and not risk you falling for another woman. yuk, yuk, yuk.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Why don't you invite her to sit down at the computer with you. Bring up Sexsearch and Adult Friend Finder and tell her you're going to make profiles on them to get your BJ's and you'd like her input as to what exactly should you put up. Should you put up a full-on nude pic of you with a hard on, or just a close up of the hard on? What should your username be? Which choices should you check off as to what exactly you're looking for? Where can you arrange to meet for these BJ's? Can it be at home or would it have to be at a motel or in your car?
> 
> Don't take no for an answer - act like you're all serious about it and you really want her input because you don't want to do anything she doesn't approve of.


Been there, done that! My wife suggested that if I wanted some variety, to go for it - she was serious. She just wanted me to be happy, even though we already had great sex at least 10x a week, and no lack of BJs. I did exactly this, only I included her so we'd play as a couple (not what she had intended, but she really liked that idea). We had many years of fun with it, too. We quit that eventually, in favor of an open relationship, which was also a lot of fun (though mostly for me) - but we ended that recently too when my FWB found a traditional relationship. Our sex life is still fantastic, but we are getting older and slowing down slightly. Who knows, though? - New adventures may be in our future.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> Been there, done that! My wife suggested that if I wanted some variety, to go for it - she was serious. She just wanted me to be happy, even though we already had great sex at least 10x a week, and no lack of BJs. I did exactly this, only I included her so we'd play as a couple (not what she had intended, but she really liked that idea). We had many years of fun with it, too. We quit that eventually, in favor of an open relationship, which was also a lot of fun (though mostly for me) - but we ended that recently too when my FWB found a traditional relationship. Our sex life is still fantastic, but we are getting older and slowing down slightly. Who knows, though? - New adventures may be in our future.


I'm glad that worked for you. I was, however, being tongue in cheek. It is a very rare marriage that can survive something like this.


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## jman (Jun 20, 2012)

McMuffin said:


> When I mentioned oral sex, she flat out told me that I can go out and get all the BJ's I wanted


#winning


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

jman said:


> #winning


Funny. I'd call that #failing.

Same result, different perspective I guess.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

my take is she doesn't love you like that anymore. she is comfortable with staying in a marriage where she calls the shots and the power is in her hands because she know you will lose the vast majority of everything you worked for and shes betting that you ain't going anywhere.


so are you happy with a wife who don't really care to keep her man happy sexually?

while you continue to meet her needs she gets a free pass on your needs.

if she works I'd call her bluff and start separating the finances. 
when she complains tell her she can get her financial needs met somewhere else.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

OP, I just went back and read you old posts. Your wife told you back in December that she wasn't attracted to you any more. She doesn't spend any time with you, hides her phone so you can't see who she is texting. Leaves you sitting at a table in the bar while she cruses and talks to men you specifically asked her not to. Now she is refusing you sex. 

OP, I am truly sorry for your circumstances but I think you need to take a good hard look at your marriage with your eyes wide open.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Once upon a time I would take that statement very negatively. If I got that from my wife today I would jump on it. Her hang ups are not your problem.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

JustHer said:


> OP, I just went back and read you old posts. Your wife told you back in December that she wasn't attracted to you any more. She doesn't spend any time with you, hides her phone so you can't see who she is texting. Leaves you sitting at a table in the bar while she cruses and talks to men you specifically asked her not to. Now she is refusing you sex.
> 
> OP, I am truly sorry for your circumstances but I think you need to take a good hard look at your marriage with your eyes wide open.


Ya, sounds like it's over. He just doesn't know it yet. Or he knows it and refuses to believe it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

She is done. Say bye.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I was actually able to turn her around and our relationship got a lot better. However, recently (1-1/2 months) we agreed to physical custody of my sisters two kids, 15 and 9. So, I know my wife is a little more stressed, but I don't think we have to stop working on our marriage because of it. We have been doing really good although our emotional connection could be better. She has learned to control her iPhone issues, and I am mostly satisfied with that. Sometimes I do feel like I am there to be a slave or help pay bills. I make 3 times what she makes and yes her lifestyle would drastically change if I left the picture. I do like the idea of separating finances if she maintains this outlook on BJ's, makes great sense. I don't want to seem demanding, but the fact that she did this before on her own will makes me believe that she no longer cares to make me happy, and that is a big issue to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> I was actually able to turn her around and our relationship got a lot better. However, recently (1-1/2 months) we agreed to physical custody of my sisters two kids, 15 and 9. So, I know my wife is a little more stressed, but I don't think we have to stop working on our marriage because of it. We have been doing really good although our emotional connection could be better. She has learned to control her iPhone issues, and I am mostly satisfied with that. Sometimes I do feel like I am there to be a slave or help pay bills. I make 3 times what she makes and yes her lifestyle would drastically change if I left the picture. I do like the idea of separating finances if she maintains this outlook on BJ's, makes great sense. I don't want to seem demanding, but the fact that she did this before on her own will makes me believe that she no longer cares to make me happy, and that is a big issue to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I smell something fishy.

the question is do you want to be married with someone who dosen't desire you? or care about your needs. someone who has there own adgenda. someone who isn't on board with whats best for the family, someone who hides her phone , someone who flirts with everybody but you,someone who is just taking advantage of you with no real signs of love?

someone you have to convince to try harder to have a happy marriage.

and as pervious posters indicated sounds like a lot of red flags. like someone who has alresdy checked out of the marriage but likes her lifestyle too much to leave.

start snooping and protect your assets. but go quit don't let her know your suspicious she already has gone underground with whatever she was doing.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I have reduced my monitoring (unknown to her) in recent months. I did take her phone early in the mornings and used programs to get deleted messages off of her phone, and also go through her phone, VAR in the car and where she smokes/talks to friends/family and I found nothing. She absolutely hates talking about sex with anyone, be it with me or her closest friend or sisters. I have been following the MMSL book for a while, changed jobs to make more money (worked hella good for me btw!), grooming, attitude, working out (just did Tough Mudder in STL). But, I am weak when it comes to the sex part. I honestly took offense to her statement about getting BJ's elsewhere when I knew she was serious.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

So today after work, tell her you are going to be late as you are stopping off for a BJ on the way home. Then go have a drink or something and come home happy and not talk about it at all.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Brilliant! I'm gonna do that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Kidney infections are extremely serious medical issues. I have a scarred kidney from 1.5-2 years ago from one and was hospitalized for a full week. Since then I get multitude of bladder infections and I have no clue why, I've never had them before the kidney infection. Plus I broke my neck 5 years ago, became disabled due to a freak accident. My husband values my health more then his own needs. 

Good luck with this. I can't imagine your wife sticking around too long. Your putting yourself first before her medical condition. I do not call this "bait and switch", this is life. 

For better or for worse, for sickness and in health. I am grateful husband takes his vows seriously.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

McMuffin said:


> Brilliant! I'm gonna do that!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, do that. You'll wake up tomorrow morning with a butcher's knife in your chest, or your McMufin chopped off. Maybe both. 

Your W desperately does not want you to go elsewhere for BJs. Again, she just wants you to STFU, go back in your corner and stop bothering her for s*x. Oh, but keep providing whatever support you've been providing.

Stop talking to her about s*x, period. She knows what you want, but she simply doesn't give a F**K. Keep working on yourself. Maybe she'll come around, or maybe you'll decide to walk.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Your right about the kidney infection being serious, I am not trying to have sexual relations while she gets this taken care of. My focus is afterwards the antibiotics still cancell out her birth control, so we can't have sex. I am simply trying to tell her that AFTER she is healed, I am not cool with not being sexual because we can't have regular sex. Which is why we were discussing other methods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I have a scarred kidney from 1.5-2 years ago from one and was hospitalized for a full week. Since then I get multitude of bladder infections and I have no clue why, I've never had them before the kidney infection..


The docs should be able to figure this out. Could be any number of things like vesicoureteral reflux - they can do tests to make sure things are working properly.


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## CondorTX19 (Jun 19, 2012)

Get a vasectomy then you won't have to worry about the pregnancy issue when she is sexually available.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> *I was actually able to turn her around and our relationship got a lot better.* However, recently (1-1/2 months) we agreed to physical custody of my sisters two kids, 15 and 9. So, I know my wife is a little more stressed, but I don't think we have to stop working on our marriage because of it. We have been doing really good although our emotional connection could be better. She has learned to control her iPhone issues, and I am mostly satisfied with that. Sometimes I do feel like I am there to be a slave or help pay bills. I make 3 times what she makes and yes her lifestyle would drastically change if I left the picture. I do like the idea of separating finances if she maintains this outlook on BJ's, makes great sense. I don't want to seem demanding, but the fact that she did this before on her own will makes me believe that she no longer cares to make me happy, and that is a big issue to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How were you able to "turn her around". 

So you went from 3 kids to 5 in the last couple months. Took on your sisters kids - who obviously are going through some emotional upheaval themselves, plus she is having health issues. WOW... no wonder she is tiered and mentally strained. 

As I do feel for your plight, I am not sure you feel for hers.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

As far as turning her around, I did the 180, worked on myself, and demanded respect both in and out of the bedroom, i.e. no iPhone when we both are in bed for the night, or when talking about important issues out of the bedroom. I also invested in some of David Shade’s products and had tremendous results in the bedroom (FYI, g-spot, a-spot do exist!). 

Now fast forwarding to current… gaining the kids did put more stress on us both, however, the 15 year old initiated the removal of him and his sister, I mention this as to imply that he is an extremely smart kid, as is his sister and they fit in well and have adjusted well. So have my wife and I. We still have some issues, but nothing has stopped us from continuing to have good sex with them in our house… This would be the first instance where she has had a Kidney infection and was happy to mention that there would be no sex for the next 28-30 days after the antibiotic meds were completed. So that is exactly when I said that there are other methods, which created the BJ conversation. I immediately was offended by her response first, and then focused on the fact that she used to do this willingly, but now has an issue… I do not think I am being disrespectful of her in any way, and am concerned with her health first and foremost, both mental and physical. I probably help her a little too much which puts me in her presence more than I should be, just the basic household chores.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

McMuffin, I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to give you another point of reflection.

Although the 15 year old initiated it and you all have adjusted well, it is still difficult to have other people in your home, even if you love them. My kids had some friends spend the summer here a couple of times (they live in another state) and although they were good kids, it was still REALLY hard to have them here. I don't think it was near as stressful to my H because I am the one that took care of them, cooked, entertained, etc.

Some people don't handle illness as well as others. I know for me it affects me emotionally quite a lot. In fact I can usually tell when I am getting sick because I get depressed first. The mind and body are totally connected. Perhaps your wife threw those words out because she really doesn't feel well and felt as if you were not being sympathetic to her.

Lastly, you have been on the site long enough to read up on how sex is totally related to emotions in women. Are you speaking her love language? Have you asked her where she is emotionally? Sure, she can give you a BJ, but you want her to want to. If she is feeling as if you don't care about her health or all the stress she is under, she will start to resent you and it kinda sounds like some of that might be going on.

You two need to talk and figure this out. She may not even know what is wrong or what is missing in order to feel a desire for you. I would suggest you go back through some of the old threads here and read up on the womans brain and how it is attracted to her mate.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Very good advice and I will do that. That's why I came back here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kaci (Mar 11, 2013)

+++


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

thunderstruck said:


> Yeah, do that. You'll wake up tomorrow morning with a butcher's knife in your chest, or your McMufin chopped off. Maybe both.
> 
> Your W desperately does not want you to go elsewhere for BJs. Again, she just wants you to STFU, go back in your corner and stop bothering her for s*x. Oh, but keep providing whatever support you've been providing.
> 
> Stop talking to her about s*x, period. She knows what you want, but she simply doesn't give a F**K. Keep working on yourself. Maybe she'll come around, or maybe you'll decide to walk.


You guys are in a prison cell and she's the dominant bull in the space. You better not ask for anything from her. It probably annoys her worse than nails on a chalkboard and is very painful when that subject is raised.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Good luck with this. I can't imagine your wife sticking around too long. Your putting yourself first before her medical condition. I do not call this "bait and switch", this is life.


You call a wife using a kidney infection as an excuse to shut her husband out for at least a month, life? That's a hard life. What kind of medical marvel are we talking about here? Her kidney is connected to her mouth, anus, and hands. They would probably put her on the Discovery Channel.

I'm all for putting PiV sex on hold while an infection clears up. But that doesn't mean that the wife has a blank check to avoid any and all intimacy with her husband during that time. If it did, then we could easily say that her husband could withhold money and conversation while her infections are being treated. I'm guessing you wouldn't be so quick to excuse those actions, correct?



> For better or for worse, for sickness and in health. I am grateful husband takes his vows seriously.


Good for you. Unfortunately, good marriages require both spouses to take their vows seriously. And a wife who looks for any excuse to withhold all forms of sex from her husband is not a wife who takes her vows seriously. I'm sure she's happy as a clam. But her husband obviously isn't as enthused about the situation.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> You call a wife using a kidney infection as an excuse to shut her husband out for at least a month, life? That's a hard life. What kind of medical marvel are we talking about here? Her kidney is connected to her mouth, anus, and hands. They would probably put her on the Discovery Channel.
> 
> I'm all for putting PiV sex on hold while an infection clears up. But that doesn't mean that the wife has a blank check to avoid any and all intimacy with her husband during that time. If it did, then we could easily say that her husband could withhold money and conversation while her infections are being treated. I'm guessing you wouldn't be so quick to excuse those actions, correct?
> 
> ...


I'm normally for this viewpoint. But if the pain causes her to not be into or think about sex, and it might make her feel bad to do it. To be shut out for a month is not that big of a deal, some of the TAM readers have been completely shut out for years. Not that I think this is acceptable.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holland,
As always - like your viewpoint. 

I think 95+++ percent of the time that when a spouse makes this type of 'statement', what they really mean is: 

I very much don't like to do 'that' - whatever that is. And I am also very confident you won't take me up on my offer. 

If a spouse REALLY wants to press the issue, they can certainly go 'full frontal' by bringing up a craigslist, or adult friend finder screen and asking for 'input'. 

Alternatively they can carve out a couple nights a week where they are going 'out' for a few hours. This is a 'don't ask, don't tell model'. And for the first month, they should go by themselves to a diner far enough away to ensure their spouse has no idea what they did. Get a nice western omlette and ice tea, read the paper and come home smiling. No flirting with the waitress or other patrons. A totally G rated night. Pay cash, and keep the receipts. 

We know what is almost certain to happen: increasingly aggressive interrogations about who/what they were doing. Quickly the 'bluffer' will melt down, and that opens the door to revisit the prior conversation. 




Holland said:


> Can't speak for your wife but here is my take on what it would mean if I said it to my partner....
> 
> "I no longer love or care about you. You can go and get BJ's else where but no emotional attachment because I still want to be in control of you not some other woman. I don't want a divorce because I am happy with my lifestyle."
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mc,
My W has a chronic inflammation that makes intercourse painful. And about two years back, when she told me about it, she also made sure to say that we 'were' going to keep our sex life fun doing 'other stuff'. And we have. 

If her 'kidney infection' doesn't make her 'generally sick', then her comments about 'alternative forms of entertainment' were totally selfish. 

I do think an honest conversation is needed about what needs to happen for her to feel 'responsive' desire. If you look that term up, it refers to a very common phenomenon where the lower desire partner starts out in 'neutral'. And if they relax, and their partner uses foreplay in a way the LD spouse likes, they 'respond' to that touch with desire. 

Because her comments read very clearly to me as: I don't get very aroused. And many folks only like oral sex if they are aroused. 





McMuffin said:


> I was actually able to turn her around and our relationship got a lot better. However, recently (1-1/2 months) we agreed to physical custody of my sisters two kids, 15 and 9. So, I know my wife is a little more stressed, but I don't think we have to stop working on our marriage because of it. We have been doing really good although our emotional connection could be better. She has learned to control her iPhone issues, and I am mostly satisfied with that. Sometimes I do feel like I am there to be a slave or help pay bills. I make 3 times what she makes and yes her lifestyle would drastically change if I left the picture. I do like the idea of separating finances if she maintains this outlook on BJ's, makes great sense. I don't want to seem demanding, but the fact that she did this before on her own will makes me believe that she no longer cares to make me happy, and that is a big issue to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

They don't make her sick, it causes some back pain and I understand that. I would not even bother her for anything sexual until she is over this. It does take work to get her aroused, but any other time she will flat out say that she doesn't need sex and could go on without it. And honestly, I do feel like she wasn't truly herself when we were dating for 5 years before getting married, and now that we are, it's a method of control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Are BJ's really that important? Or is this something wives are just expected to do even if if they don't like it, meaning husbands are entitled to them? I'm genuinely curious here as I don't mind giving them my husband, but maybe some women just don't care for them. Is that a crime?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


the husband likes bj's...the second someone uses the "entitled" word, then its ON...that can be applied to anything
"oh she is just entitled to forplay"
"oh she is entitled to cuddling afterwards"
"oh she is entitled to me eating her"

it shouldnt be about this...its easy for me to say as I dont look at anything that pleases my partner as "gross" or "an entitlement"...if she likes it, and its legal and NOT painful, I will do it...if my wife decided she wanted me to perform anallingus on her, I would...it might not be on my top 5 of favorite things to do, but as long as cleanliness is a priority, Im in

and women who say "ew...you pee out of it"...I say "yeah, well, you pee all over yours, and you have periods...and I still LOVE to please you this way"


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It is usually difficult to give a bj cold. Demands and attempted coercion wont work. Seems undignified to give a bj to a man that demands it. 

Have you ever given your wife oral with no orgasm for yourself? If not why? It is much better for your marriage to make the defat position that sex is a mutually enjoyable activity. That is not always possible but make it rare to do otherwise. 

It seems incredibly cold and uncaring to even consider anal sex. Did if you know that if your wife does not actively seek anal, it can be painful. It is difficult to relax if the recipient is not very aroused and wants anal sex. Read about it. 

Besides that, any disturbance in the vaginal or anal area can exacerbate the kidney infection. I am certain that you love your wife enough to avoid this scenario. If you care, read about kidney infections. Maybe that will increase your sensitivity. 

Moreover, you certainly could not orgasm while putting her health in jeopardy can you? From her point of view, kidneys are forever, marriage is frequently not. 

She is smart and self protective not to risk permanent damage. You would do the same, no? Is the feeling that sex is for you part of your addiction? You may benefit by IC and MC. 

It might also help to consider what the things that you should make you grateful instead of unhappy. Also, appreciate yoiur wife sounds like she deserves it along with your patience and more caring attitude. 

You may stand a good chance of making your wife resentful for your attitude at this temporary break in sex. It could lead to a slow down in sex. 

Maybe decide to D and take your 15 yo and 9 yr relatives with you. Try your luck finding a woman who will be willing to give you sex with one desire only, to make you sexually satisfied.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Just a thought: maybe your wife is getting her muffin munched by another man on the side?

Maybe that's why she doesn't mind you getting your knob polished by other women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Catherine, your posts suggest that I don't care for her in any way except sexually, which is not true. I have stated that I do not intend to be sexual with her until her kidney infection goes away. It is the effects of the antibiotics afterward that she is using as a means not to be intimate. I love my wife immensely, which is why I am trying to understand her position, if I didn't, then I wouldn't be here, I'd be on adult friend finder!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Just a thought: maybe your wife is getting her muffin munched by another man on the side?
> 
> Maybe that's why she doesn't mind you getting your knob polished by other women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Once upon I time I thought this, but I dug and dug and never found anything. I still monitor her today, just not as intensely as I never found anything that suggested adultery. I believe that sex is just last on the list of things to be a part of with me. I initiate 99.9% of the time, rarely does she initiate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

missthelove2013 said:


> the husband likes bj's...the second someone uses the "entitled" word, then its ON...that can be applied to anything
> "oh she is just entitled to forplay"
> "oh she is entitled to cuddling afterwards"
> "oh she is entitled to me eating her"
> ...


I've seen this a lot. It shows a sad lack of knowledge of female sexuality. You are not doing your partner a favor by engaging in foreplay, you have having mutually satisfying sex. 

Men get aroused instantly most women need time. How long do your think a woman would continue to have sex with a man who jumps on pumps and thats it? 

Do you think she would be inspired to throw in a bj? It's more likely to be no sex and no bj. Obviously, that is not the answer to the problem. 

Attention to mutual sexual satisfaction is best for long term sexual frequency. Make sure she is turned on before giving a bj. 

Don't expect her to give bj's cold, even if she has done it before. Gets old after a while. Give her an orgasm first. Do you give your wife oral sex without having an orgasm yourself? If not, why?

Did you know that women who are orgasmic with their partner have sex more frequently and will engage in more sexual variety. 

The problem is that most women will not want sex if they are not aroused and their partner rushes through sex and leaves them frustrated. No one wants that, even women.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

My wife has multiple orgasms during sex, with no stimulation of her cl!t either. She loves it when it's happening, just getting her there takes time. Foreplay in our bedroom is me doing her without her doing any foreplay to me, basically because she is ready to start orgasms with sex, I never really cared that she didn't do any foreplay to me until now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Have you ever given your wife oral with no orgasm for yourself? If not why? It is much better for your marriage to make the defat position that sex is a mutually enjoyable activity. That is not always possible but make it rare to do otherwise.


My wife and I were in our early 30's...camping in a trailer...were at the fire, drinking, talking...she went into a friends camper to get sticks for marshmallows/smores...I followed her, backed her against their bunk...pulled down her sweats and dropped to my knees, went down on her

she just stood there for a moment but quickly got into it...the whole scene, the fact that it wasnt our camper, she climaxed and I got up and left the camper...she just stood there with 3 marshmallow sticks in her hand and her pants/panties down around her ankles...she talked about that for years...I didnt say ONE word, didnt ask for anything in return...i got off getting her off...the memory still turns me on almost a decade later...we had sex later that night, and it was intense, but that wasnt my intention or a reward...

so yes, I LOVE making her feel good and it doesnt have to be reciprocated...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> Catherine, your posts suggest that I don't care for her in any way except sexually, which is not true. I have stated that I do not intend to be sexual with her until her kidney infection goes away. It is the effects of the antibiotics afterward that she is using as a means not to be intimate. I love my wife immensely, which is why I am trying to understand her position, if I didn't, then I wouldn't be here, I'd be on adult friend finder!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am sorry, I did not get that impression from your original post. Your first post seemed to indicate that you were angry with her for wanting to take care of herself after the course of AB. The title of your post does not reflect the complexity of issues facing you and your wife. 

Given that, it is easy to misinterpret your desire for sex. It is not sex so much an indication of great distress. I don't know why you label your self as a sex addict. Maybe there are things you have not shared but I see no evidence of it. If this is it, stop labeling yourself labels don't help. 

You said above that she is using the period after the AB to avoid intimacy. But is it possible that she is really concerned about her kidneys and she wants to make very sure that they are not damaged by a repeat infection? Given the vital nature of these organs that is understandable. 

You love her but love is action and feeling. Show her that you care by reading about kidney infections. Find out what she should do to get well and stay well. I bet if you focused on her for this short period, she would focus on you too. I would bring her cold water when you are home. Let her know that you read about kidney infections and you know that plenty of water is important. 

Ask her what time she should take her pills and ask her if she remembered to take them throughout her busy day. Tell her that rest id important and you will take over the chores and ask her to rest for and hr when you are home. That will get you more than talking about sexual needs and disconnecting. 

I understand this is a stressful time for you too. As a man, you need the reassurance of sex now more than ever to feel your wife is connected. I also see that you are not getting that and it is causing distress. Even though you are not getting what you need right now, can you find your way to give to her anyway? It will pay off in the end. It is short term discomfort for longterm gain, like an investment. 

It's not women Vs. men, its simple relationship advice from a married woman. I'm saying this because I see from that perspective and want you to benefit from that view. I am telling you this because I think it will help.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> the husband likes bj's...the second someone uses the "entitled" word, then its ON...that can be applied to anything
> "oh she is just entitled to forplay"
> "oh she is entitled to cuddling afterwards"
> "oh she is entitled to me eating her"
> ...



Comments totally taken out of context, and as such it is completely unnecessary to get your back up. I was attempting to ascertain how much a spouse is obligated to do something they really don't want to do and how much a spouse wants something knowing their spouse really doesn't want to do it. How many people on here don't want duty sex? How are duty BJ's different? I love when my hb goes down on me (I do it for him all the time) but if I knew he couldn't stand it and was forcing it I'm not sure I'd want it. In a perfect world spouses would do anything to please each other, but our world isn't perfect and as such sex lives must be negotiated (as many other things must be). What if you want S&M? Is your wife a bad wife is she doesn't want that? Both spouses should get some of what they want. With women the willingness to do things like BJ's is often linked to the overall intimacy of the marriage so my next question is what the intimacy outside of the bedroom looks like?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

missthelove2013 said:


> My wife and I were in our early 30's...camping in a trailer...were at the fire, drinking, talking...she went into a friends camper to get sticks for marshmallows/smores...I followed her, backed her against their bunk...pulled down her sweats and dropped to my knees, went down on her
> 
> she just stood there for a moment but quickly got into it...the whole scene, the fact that it wasnt our camper, she climaxed and I got up and left the camper...she just stood there with 3 marshmallow sticks in her hand and her pants/panties down around her ankles...she talked about that for years...I didnt say ONE word, didnt ask for anything in return...i got off getting her off...the memory still turns me on almost a decade later...we had sex later that night, and it was intense, but that wasnt my intention or a reward...
> 
> so yes, I LOVE making her feel good and it doesnt have to be reciprocated...


:rofl:

I dream of giving my husband a bj when he comes home from work when the kids are not there. But I can't get up the nerve. It is a strong fantasy, some day I will not be able to resist. I can't let him give my oral sex without an orgasm for him.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Alternatively they can carve out a couple nights a week where they are going 'out' for a few hours. This is a 'don't ask, don't tell model'. And for the first month, they should go by themselves to a diner far enough away to ensure their spouse has no idea what they did. Get a nice western omlette and ice tea, read the paper and come home smiling. No flirting with the waitress or other patrons. A totally G rated night. Pay cash, and keep the receipts.
> 
> We know what is almost certain to happen: increasingly aggressive interrogations about who/what they were doing. Quickly the 'bluffer' will melt down, and that opens the door to revisit the prior conversation.



MCMuffin---


My wife told me the same thing to me...Not just a BJ, but sex! Like you I didn't know how to respond to that.

I don't know your whole story, I may want to back track some.
I know my wife has diagnosed medical issues she refuses to get checked out. Bottom line...She would rather me have sex with other women without the emotional attachment.

so like MEM posted. for a month, I had my "date" night. The first time I did go alone. Two times I went alone. Both times I didn't talk about it. The third time, I had a date. I didn't pay for her meal. I didn't say anything about it to my wife. I was a lot happier so she assumed that I had a date. 

Like you, I did a 180 and changed a lot. Other women notice now and I have lunch dates with women. Some my wife knows. One women actually hired my wife a couple years back as a favor. My wife quit after 3 weeks.

I started a meetup group and I started to volunteer at a animal shelter. I met two women there.One at the meetup.

Oh...The waitress at the restaurant I have my lunch dates wants to go out for drinks. I went there for lunch just today alone. My "date" had to cancel. That gave the waitress time to talk to me. 

At some point one of theses women won't want an emotional relationship. I am not cheating if my wife tells me to and she knows about it. I just don't know if I should call her right before sex to tell her.

I like the new me.



As far as going out like MEM posted...My wife holds everything in and doesn't care to talk about much. I don't get it.

I know for her to tell me to have sex with other women, I know she doesn't love me. Not in the way I want her to. She just wants an intact home and companionship WITHOUT SEX!

She knows I won't leave my daughter.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Comments totally taken out of context, and as such it is completely unnecessary to get your back up. I was attempting to ascertain how much a spouse is obligated to do something they really don't want to do and how much a spouse wants something knowing their spouse really doesn't want to do it. How many people on here don't want duty sex? How are duty BJ's different? I love when my hb goes down on me (I do it for him all the time) but if I knew he couldn't stand it and was forcing it I'm not sure I'd want it. In a perfect world spouses would do anything to please each other, but our world isn't perfect and as such sex lives must be negotiated (as many other things must be). What if you want S&M? Is your wife a bad wife is she doesn't want that? Both spouses should get some of what they want. With women the willingness to do things like BJ's is often linked to the overall intimacy of the marriage so my next question is what the intimacy outside of the bedroom looks like?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


sorry...I guess I saw the word "entitled" and got riled up 

"duty Sex" not sure how I feel about that...there were times when I wasnt in the mood, but I went down on or touched my wife...and vice versa...if the only sexual contact between 2 40 somethings with career/house/kids allowed is when they are both in the mood...lol...how often does that happen??

When my wife and I were in a good place, I had no problem taking care of her when I wasnt in the mood...there are toys that help in that department...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> sorry...I guess I saw the word "entitled" and got riled up
> 
> "duty Sex" not sure how I feel about that...there were times when I wasnt in the mood, but I went down on or touched my wife...and vice versa...if the only sexual contact between 2 40 somethings with career/house/kids allowed is when they are both in the mood...lol...how often does that happen??
> 
> When my wife and I were in a good place, I had no problem taking care of her when I wasnt in the mood...there are toys that help in that department...



No worries.....I think most loving spouses have done things they weren't in the mood for to please their spouse. I don't really see that as duty sex; when I think of "duty" I think of people doing things they dislike because it's their duty, and to me that is a HUGE turnoff. Just like you, I may not be in the mood but I have great marital intimacy, my hb does things for me, and as such I don't mind doing for him. This leads us back to what kind of marital intimacy they have outside the bedroom, esp now that she has two extra kids. I wonder if that was a completely mutual decision?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mc,
Her 'real' position is that she doesn't get much out of having sex with you. Which is why sex dropped so much after marriage. 

That doesn't mean you are 'bad in bed'. It does mean that you need to ask yourself some hard questions:

Have you thought about what each of you contribute to the marriage that make each other's life better? 

1. Security: financial, physical, emotional
2. Independence/Control: Providing the freedom to control a reasonable amount of (time, money, love, physical space) 
3. Influence: A collaborative/cooperative and compromising posture that encourages your spouse to honestly engage with you to achieve goals that require your support
4. Positive emotional energy - happiness 
5. Behaviors that amplify your spouses strengths and help them manage their weaknesses 
6. The courage to communicate and enforce your boundaries 
7. The restraint needed to manage your emotions to achieve a positive outcome during conflict 
8. The ability to consistently differentiate boundary enforcement from control
9. The recognition that stability and (excitement or desire) are often inherently hostile to one another and the determination to balance them
10. The recognition that a sincere 'desire and willingness to please your partner' can compensate for many baseline compatibility issues



QUOTE=McMuffin;4454585]Catherine, your posts suggest that I don't care for her in any way except sexually, which is not true. I have stated that I do not intend to be sexual with her until her kidney infection goes away. It is the effects of the antibiotics afterward that she is using as a means not to be intimate. I love my wife immensely, which is why I am trying to understand her position, if I didn't, then I wouldn't be here, I'd be on adult friend finder!
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Intimacy outside the bedroom? Well, she will sit on my lap in the living room watching tv for a few minutes if I ask her to. We hug each other everyday, and I give her a peck on the lips or cheek most days. I've tried to get more from her, but honestly I don't think she is capable. I can tell that she absolutely hates it not to look at FB for an hour before falling asleep, and I know it's what she'd rather do. I've asked to go to counseling, but she refused because it will "get out" that we are having issues. The hardest thing about being a nice guy is learning to undo years of emotional abuse and keep it undone, which is why I keep reverting back to "that guy." So yes there are still some issues with me in that department.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MC,
My favorite line from the movie 'white men can't jump' is: you would rather look good and lose, then look bad and win.

Your wife 'might' be worried that it will 'get out'. But most couples can easily see a counselor discretely. So maybe she is worried about 'friends and family'. More likely she knows she is treating you in a way that an objective third party would 'cringe' at. She doesn't want a counselor telling you to stand up for yourself. 

If indeed her 'real fear' is friends any family finding out, why does her public image matter more than your marital satisfaction?






McMuffin said:


> Intimacy outside the bedroom? Well, she will sit on my lap in the living room watching tv for a few minutes if I ask her to. We hug each other everyday, and I give her a peck on the lips or cheek most days. I've tried to get more from her, but honestly I don't think she is capable. I can tell that she absolutely hates it not to look at FB for an hour before falling asleep, and I know it's what she'd rather do. I've asked to go to counseling, but she refused because it will "get out" that we are having issues. The hardest thing about being a nice guy is learning to undo years of emotional abuse and keep it undone, which is why I keep reverting back to "that guy." So yes there are still some issues with me in that department.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aeasty (Jun 5, 2013)

thunderstruck said:


> My guess...she's confident that you'd never do that, so she threw that out to make you back off. She gambled that you'd backtrack, and leave her alone - "No, sweetie, I could never do that! I'm sorry I brought it up."
> 
> My W told me things along those lines before. The last time she did it, I smiled and told her, "Great! I'll do that." I went for my keys, and she quickly blocked my exit. Haven't heard those comments any longer.


My ex said the same lines " like you can go get that from a brothel" and so on till I laughed and said I would pay for sex I ll just go to the valley(local pub and club precinct) and pick up a ****ty 20 year old we were only 23 and she just had the shattered look of that didn't go as I planned! Never let anyone try and control you with sex it's a quickest way to end a relationship or to kill yourself inside
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Those hugs reinforce her belief that you will accept a sexless marriage open ended. 

An hour at night managing her public image is more important than an hour with her H. 

You start going to the gym for a few hours 2-3 times a week, maybe you will find that Facebook is not as critical to her as she claims. 

And you post about it on Facebook, post about how happy you are to be getting into great shape. 




McMuffin said:


> Intimacy outside the bedroom? Well, she will sit on my lap in the living room watching tv for a few minutes if I ask her to. We hug each other everyday, and I give her a peck on the lips or cheek most days. I've tried to get more from her, but honestly I don't think she is capable. I can tell that she absolutely hates it not to look at FB for an hour before falling asleep, and I know it's what she'd rather do. I've asked to go to counseling, but she refused because it will "get out" that we are having issues. The hardest thing about being a nice guy is learning to undo years of emotional abuse and keep it undone, which is why I keep reverting back to "that guy." So yes there are still some issues with me in that department.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> Intimacy outside the bedroom? Well, she will sit on my lap in the living room watching tv for a few minutes if I ask her to. We hug each other everyday, and I give her a peck on the lips or cheek most days. I've tried to get more from her, but honestly I don't think she is capable. I can tell that she absolutely hates it not to look at FB for an hour before falling asleep, and I know it's what she'd rather do. I've asked to go to counseling, but she refused because it will "get out" that we are having issues. The hardest thing about being a nice guy is learning to undo years of emotional abuse and keep it undone, which is why I keep reverting back to "that guy." So yes there are still some issues with me in that department.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait a moment. Your wife has abused you? 

I thought you said that the relationship was hectic but good besides her decision not to have sex for 2 months. Didn't read your other post. There seems a lot more going on. 

Why do you call yourself a sex addict?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

If you do decide to take her up on her offer, I think it's time to get a divorce for the sake of your own self respect and integrity. I'm sure it's a hoot to think off all the ways you can shock her by doing just what she said you should do (or making her think you are), but in the end it's not going to make your marriage any better. In fact, I would guess that it would continue to spiral downward, making divorce even messier than it has to be. 

I can't speculate on why she made you this offer, but I understand that it was extremely hurtful. There was a time in my own marriage that I wanted to tell my husband he could find sex outside the marriage. It was desperation that made me feel this way--I had lost my desire for him, couldn't imagine ever getting it back, and didn't understand what a terrible blow this was to my husband emotionally. I don't think our marriage would have survived if I'd made the offer and he took me up on it. Fortunately, I took the harder route and worked on the real issues to fix our intimacy.

So, what is the real issue with you and your wife? I think it's telling that she claims that becoming a mother has changed what she is willing to do sexually. Perhaps her self-confidence in the bedroom has taken a blow. Does she struggle with body image, or changes to her body from pregnancy? Does she feel drained of her old identity now that she's a mom? I remember feeling, when I had young children, that someone ALWAYS needed something from me, and it usually involved me being touched. By the end of the day, being "needed" sexually was just another demand. I had nothing of my own to give. 

Being ill from serial kidney infections isn't going to make a girl feel sexy, either. Again, the self confidence goes south. Your frustration, although understandable, isn't helping the matter, and she is now resentful, adding a whole other issue. It's easier for her to withdraw into Facebook where she can be who she wants to be and no one can demand anything of her. She can control her image. She can't do that with you, her husband. You see her for who she is, flaws and all. For some people, that sort of vulnerability is to be avoided at all costs. 

So what can you do if you want to stay in the marriage and really, truly fix the broken intimacy? I'm afraid your options are limited to telling her often and calmly, that your needs are not being met, that you want and need a fulfilling, mutually satisfying sex life. Talk to her about what constant rejection does to you--ask her to do some reading on her own about what sex in long term, committed relationships means to men. And yes, work on yourself as much as you can. Stop pestering her for BJ's or negotiating for other types of sex. Continue to initiate sex and control your anger if she rejects. Get a vasectomy so you can stop worrying about BC when she's on the antibiotics. 

Until she is willing to step up and admit that her resistance to intimacy with you is a problem that SHE needs to address, you won't get more than duty sex or permission to seek BJ's elsewhere. Your behavior (past and/or present) could well have contributed to her losing desire. If she brings this up, acknowledge your contribution to the problem, but tell her you can't fix her libido for her.

Accept that there are no guarantees if you take this approach--except this one: you can look back from where ever you are in ten years and not feel ashamed of your own choices.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Perhaps its just me but I saw this wife's statement to get a BJ elsewhere as the cherry on top of years and years of sexual neglect. Also the kidney infection - wouldn't usually be a big deal within a marriage that was sexually healthy but this sounds like the thousandth reason in a row to escape intimacy.

Although I certainly agree I was averse to physical touch when my children were young.

Also I'm torn on this screen name. I first think of McLovin from that one movie and then I think of a McMuffin that makes me hungry.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Are BJ's really that important? Or is this something wives are just expected to do even if if they don't like it, meaning husbands are entitled to them? I'm genuinely curious here as I don't mind giving them my husband, but maybe some women just don't care for them. Is that a crime?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it should be a crime. She used to do it, so since it is not her favorite thing she chooses to not do this for him even though he wants it and gets great pleasure from it. She is just selfish and not as into OP as she used to be. I would tell her to take care of my needs or hit the road.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> I think it should be a crime. She used to do it, so since it is not her favorite thing she chooses to not do this for him even though he wants it and gets great pleasure from it. She is just selfish and not as into OP as she used to be. I would tell her to take care of my needs or hit the road.


Ouch. Honestly, if she came here to tell us that you did then I'd be the first one to tell her that she should hit the road, and not because she doesn't like BJs. I'd tell her that your attitude towards women needs adjustment. Maybe it's just me, but I'd never want (or expect) my wife to do anything that she's not completely into and enjoying. She's not my wh0re and marriage doesn't confer rights to any sex act even if she enjoyed it before we married.

People change, circumstances change, and our likes and tastes change. That's marriage. I'd feel like pond scum if I got "great pleasure" from anything that she no longer wants to do just because she used to do it, or I liked it a lot. Not to mention that, frankly, I'll pass on a job with no heart in it. 

If there are other issues in the marriage, work on them and maybe great sex will naturally follow.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

The way I see it, sometimes men and women after marriage, get comfy, lazy and their true LD selves come out. They never see that as the problem though.

If hubby or wifee want cuddling, talking, listening, romance and their other half does that for them, this is a loving act. Now if the other HD half wants more sex and adventurous, their needs should be met as well out of love and not excuses, starving them and making them miserable. Marriage is taking care of the other halves needs and not your own as much, out of love.

And then the LD spouses get mad when their other half views porn, sexts, flirts, EA, etc........how could they do that to me? Really?!:scratchhead:


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Wait a moment. Your wife has abused you?
> 
> I thought you said that the relationship was hectic but good besides her decision not to have sex for 2 months. Didn't read your other post. There seems a lot more going on.
> 
> Why do you call yourself a sex addict?


Not physical! Emotional. My reference was to the MMSLP and David Shade's material in regards to nice guys. The hardest thing is to keep that balance in my favor by not being too nice. We had been doing really good, and went from sex once a month to at least once per week, and often two or three times a week. Her comment about the BJ and getting it elsewhere threw me off guard and I immediately went into that whole "why would you say that" state of mind instead of grabbing my keys and telling her I have a few girls that I know who can hook me up (like a previous poster mentioned). It was a test from her and I failed terribly. 

I do not consider myself a sex addict because I like to have sex with my wife more than once a week, and I do not masturbate daily or anything like that so that term addict doesnt fit me.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

treyvion said:


> I'm normally for this viewpoint. But if the pain causes her to not be into or think about sex, and it might make her feel bad to do it.


That's unfortunate. But it doesn't excuse her duty. Sometimes, I don't want to go to work. I still go. Sometimes, I don't want to cook dinner for my children. I still feed them. I don't feel bad fulfilling my obligations to my family. If fulfilling her obligations to her husband makes her feel bad, then that is a personal problem that she needs to address. It's not an excuse for indefinite withholding of sex.



> To be shut out for a month is not that big of a deal, some of the TAM readers have been completely shut out for years. Not that I think this is acceptable.


Yes, being shut down for a month isn't the end of the world, if it only happens once. But the OP wrote that the infections were frequent and each infection shut him down totally for a month. That's a different scenario.

I wouldn't feel too badly if something came up and I couldn't feed my kids dinner one night. That wouldn't make me a bad father. Telling my kids that they're not getting dinner for the next 30 nights (and doing that frequently) would absolutely make me a bad father.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> I've seen this a lot. It shows a sad lack of knowledge of female sexuality. You are not doing your partner a favor by engaging in foreplay, you have having mutually satisfying sex.


So, cunnilingus is mutually satisfying sex, but fellatio is strictly for the man's benefit? Interesting point of view. What if they 69? Can something be selfish, yet mutually satisfying at the same time?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

pplwatching said:


> Ouch. Honestly, if she came here to tell us that you did then I'd be the first one to tell her that she should hit the road, and not because she doesn't like BJs. I'd tell her that your attitude towards women needs adjustment.


The attitude that a wife has an obligation to satisfy her husband's sexual needs is inappropriate? Ouch.



> Maybe it's just me, but I'd never want (or expect) my wife to do anything that she's not completely into and enjoying.


As another poster wrote, if you wait to have sex until both partners are completely into it, you may be waiting a very long time.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

It seems to me that there is a difference between having sex when both people "aren't completely into it" and having sex when one person is actively disliking it. 

I think most people in healthy relationships will be game for satisfying their partner occasionally when they might not be hot for sexual contact themselves. 

In the OP's situation, I think it's a matter of his wife feeling actual aversion to BJs, and perhaps only being able to tolerate other types of sexual intimacy. Having her just suck up (so to speak) and force herself to push past the aversion to give in to her husbands sexual needs isn't addressing the problem. And, from what many men and women have posted here, that is not what is wanted from a spouse. 

The fix here is to have her figure out why she's not able to willingly and selflessly and happily be intimate with her husband. Anything less than that is duty sex, or sex to get him to shut up and leave her alone--not a whole lot different than telling him to get his needs met elsewhere.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I raise to $40. 

The one scenario I can imagine where a spouse really means it, is one where they have both sexual aversion to and a strong dependence (of some type) on their partner.






2galsmom said:


> It is rude. As a woman, I am telling you it is rude. Sure, you stay and do your man things for me and go get service that I do not want to provide you elsewhere. Rude.
> 
> Ten bucks says you go and get a few and she FREAKS OUT! Make it twenty.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> It seems to me that there is a difference between having sex when both people "aren't completely into it" and having sex when one person is actively disliking it.
> 
> I think most people in healthy relationships will be game for satisfying their partner occasionally when they might not be hot for sexual contact themselves.
> 
> ...


Good points...I did steer astray earlier...
this thread isnt about having sex when not in the mood
this thread is about doing certain sex acts that one doesnt like to do, that one WILL NEVER be in the mood to do as they just dont like it

As a man, I can TOTALLY understand why a woman would NOT want to participate in anal sex for example, personally I tried it one and will not do it again, its painful for both parties and messy, no thanks...I do, however, NOT understand not liking oral sex...

If it were me, Id probably resort to being petty and imature, tell her "I understand, honey, as I no longer feel comfortable performing cunnilingus" and no more oral for her either...not vengeance, but maybe a lesson to her

I DO find cunnilingus as mutually enjoyable...sure none of my erogenous zones are being stimulated when I perform this, but it heightens my arousal, makes me harder, makes me feel closer to her...the trust she displays by letting me go down increases my intimate connection with her...so I cant fathom why she wouldnt want the same thing by performing oral on me...I think its selfish, selfish to NOT try and deal with whatever issues she suddenly has...as I mentioned before, if you find giving head "humiliating" or "degrading", than thats YOUR issue, dont even get me started on "but he pees out of it"


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

I went back and reread some of the first page and, although this isnt a funny situation, this thread reminded me of the old joke:
"Why do brides smile when they walk down the isle"
"Because they have given their LAST blow job"

sure not true of all women, but man I hear a LOT how the hummers stopped after marriage, especially after kids...I dont get it


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> The one scenario I can imagine where a spouse really means it, is one where they have both sxual aversion to and a strong dependence (of some type) on their partner.


Still doubt she'd mean it. What you described is probably pretty close to what my W is feeling. Her strong dependence on me would ramp up her fear/anxiety if I found someone else to play with. She'd be too afraid of losing me, or losing my support.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> Well, she actually meant it! I was talking to her about our intimacy issues and started getting into variety of sexual acts. When I mentioned oral sex, she flat out told me that I can go out and get all the BJ's I wanted, but that I just cant have any emotional attachments.... I honestly didnt know what to think! I thought she was joking, but she wasnt. She used to do it for me when we were younger but just doesnt want to anymore. What do you guys make of this?


:smthumbup: Get this in writing. Then when she gets mad at you show her the written agreement she made. Sure she'll still be mad but she'll have no one but herself to blame.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MTL,
The post below raises tension levels and adds nothing. 





missthelove2013 said:


> I went back and reread some of the first page and, although this isnt a funny situation, this thread reminded me of the old joke:
> "Why do brides smile when they walk down the isle"
> "Because they have given their LAST blow job"
> 
> sure not true of all women, but man I hear a LOT how the hummers stopped after marriage, especially after kids...I dont get it


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> That's unfortunate. But it doesn't excuse her duty. Sometimes, I don't want to go to work. I still go. Sometimes, I don't want to cook dinner for my children. I still feed them. I don't feel bad fulfilling my obligations to my family. If fulfilling her obligations to her husband makes her feel bad, then that is a personal problem that she needs to address. It's not an excuse for indefinite withholding of sex.
> 
> 
> Yes, being shut down for a month isn't the end of the world, if it only happens once. But the OP wrote that the infections were frequent and each infection shut him down totally for a month. That's a different scenario.
> ...


You wouldn't feel so bad? If you are the type of person who looks out for what is in it for me. It might help him in the long run to be a little more concerned about his wife health, given the recurring nature of the infection. If this happened to my husband, my first thought would be to go with him to the Dr to find out why the infections are recurring and how to prevent them. 

It is interesting that that concern has not been addressed with Mc. It is possible that the emphasis on her sexual duties at a time when she is dealing with health concerns may hurt the relationship in the long term. 

When you are sick, does your partner talk to you about your duties to get out to work, keep up with the chores and care for the kids? If she does than you may feel like a pack mule and not a beloved partner. Same here. In loving relationships the first question cannot be what is in it for me. Sometimes you do more for your partner than they do for you and at other times they do for you. It all evens out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

My wife also told me that I could get a blowjob from one other person. But for that to happen, I'd have to REALLY work on my flexibility...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> You wouldn't feel so bad? If you are the type of person who looks out for what is in it for me.


You have to be. People take advantage of kind people all the time. They will be on the recieving end, with no intention to provide anything in return.



Catherine602 said:


> It might help him in the long run to be a little more concerned about his wife health, given the recurring nature of the infection. If this happened to my husband, my first thought would be to go with him to the Dr to find out why the infections are recurring and how to prevent them.


Agree the primary concern should be the wife's health.



Catherine602 said:


> It is interesting that that concern has not been addressed with Mc. It is possible that the emphasis on her sexual duties at a time when she is dealing with health concerns may hurt the relationship in the long term.


True. These situations create resentment. What our poster is concerned about, is this going to be a trend that illness or unrelated discomforts will always become a barrier to sex.



Catherine602 said:


> When you are sick, does your partner talk to you about your duties to get out to work, keep up with the chores and care for the kids? If she does than you may feel like a pack mule and not a beloved partner. Same here. In loving relationships the first question cannot be what is in it for me. Sometimes you do more for your partner than they do for you and at other times they do for you. It all evens out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True. If you are in a loving relationship, you cannot always be concerned about whats in it for you. It will balance out, but a high percentage of people are not in loving relationships. It's about people getting their needs met, without much concern for their partner getting their needs met.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Maybe I missed it, but aren't condoms an option during the anti-biotic period?


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

pplwatching said:


> Ouch. Honestly, if she came here to tell us that you did then I'd be the first one to tell her that she should hit the road, and not because she doesn't like BJs. I'd tell her that your attitude towards women needs adjustment. Maybe it's just me, but I'd never want (or expect) my wife to do anything that she's not completely into and enjoying. She's not my wh0re and marriage doesn't confer rights to any sex act even if she enjoyed it before we married.
> 
> People change, circumstances change, and our likes and tastes change. That's marriage. I'd feel like pond scum if I got "great pleasure" from anything that she no longer wants to do just because she used to do it, or I liked it a lot. Not to mention that, frankly, I'll pass on a job with no heart in it.
> 
> If there are other issues in the marriage, work on them and maybe great sex will naturally follow.


there is a reason she all of a sudden is not into giving her lover the pleasure he deserves. She used to but now won't...? This is not making her do something she doesn't want to do. This is making her do something she does not want to do for her husband any longer, and there IMO is a big difference. I would hope and do assume that most good marriages are that good b/c we pay attention to and derive pleasure from pleasuring our spouse physically as well as emotionally. She doesn't any longer care to take care of him and I would tell her to do just that or hit the road. If she is not willing to be honest with him than what is the point anyway. Expecting my wife to continue to pleasure me the way she has for 20 years is not assuming she is to remain "my *****" it is me getting to enjoy something I love that she does for me. She gets great enjoyment from pleasing me as I do her. If she stopped I would know that something was up. If his wife wont tell him that something then to me there is no point to any sort of continued effort on his part.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

We're not talking about giving him the pleasure that he deserves. We're talking about demanding a particular sex act that she doesn't want to perform. On top of which, she's physically ill. If she doesn't want to give a BJ, she doesn't want to. Demanding that she do it anyway because she used to or because you think that you deserve it is degrading. 

If it's a symptom of a bigger problem in the marriage, then address that problem. If it's a deal breaker, then divorce her.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

pplwatching said:


> We're not talking about giving him the pleasure that he deserves. We're talking about demanding a particular sex act that she doesn't want to perform. On top of which, she's physically ill. If she doesn't want to give a BJ, she doesn't want to. Demanding that she do it anyway because she used to or because you think that you deserve it is degrading.
> 
> If it's a symptom of a bigger problem in the marriage, then address that problem. If it's a deal breaker, then divorce her.


I am talking specifically about giving him the pleasure he deserves. I very much agree this is about bigger problems in the marriage that she refuses to talk about or go to counseling for. Thinking this, if it were me I would demand it or she can leave or I will file. I would do this in hopes it would show her I am not a doormat. If she won't pleasure me or talk to me then she can do with out me. One life folks. Get some enjoyment and if you are in a situation where someone else is purposely hurting you, remove that person from your life. Spouses included. It takes two people committed to the marriage for a marriage to work.
I do not think demanding it would produce the result of her doing it. I do think it would show her that her H is not going to stay married to someone that tells him to go elsewhere to have his needs met. Maybe that will get her to wake up. BTW she stopped the BJ's before the health issue. Of course if she is ill, there is no expectation of any sexual act until she is ready. I think she will certainly milk the hell out of it though.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> It might help him in the long run to be a little more concerned about his wife health, given the recurring nature of the infection. If this happened to my husband, my first thought would be to go with him to the Dr to find out why the infections are recurring and how to prevent them.


Nothing in any of the OP's posts indicated that his wife isn't getting the proper medical care for her condition. If you think that the OP should try to stop the world from turning while she recovers from each occurrence, then I don't think it will work.



> It is interesting that that concern has not been addressed with Mc. It is possible that the emphasis on her sexual duties at a time when she is dealing with health concerns may hurt the relationship in the long term.


I think it's more likely that the OP's wife's complete disregard for her husbands needs, on a long-term basis, is what is hurting the relationship.



> When you are sick, does your partner talk to you about your duties to get out to work, keep up with the chores and care for the kids? If she does than you may feel like a pack mule and not a beloved partner. Same here. In loving relationships the first question cannot be what is in it for me. Sometimes you do more for your partner than they do for you and at other times they do for you. It all evens out.


Taking care of your partner evens out, assuming you're both in the same state of health. My wife and I are healthy. When one of us gets sick, the other steps up and works extra hard for the family. After a day or two, the other person recovers and the balance is restored. No problems.

However, if one person is chronically ill, a new balance must be struck. And it can't be one where one partner completely disregards the other. The OP has already stated that he doesn't expect PiV, or anal. But he wants something. And, as a married man, he deserves it.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> The OP has already stated that he doesn't expect PiV, or anal. But he wants something. And, as a married man, he deserves it.


Being a married man entitles you to squat. Being a decent human being? Now that's where it's at.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Being a married man entitles you to squat. Being a decent human being? Now that's where it's at.


True. His wife should step up and try being one.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> True. His wife should step up and try being one.


Works both ways, I agree. My point was that the state of being married isn't enough for anyone to "deserve" anything.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

pplwatching said:


> We're not talking about giving him the pleasure that he deserves. We're talking about demanding a particular sex act that she doesn't want to perform.


No, we're not. We're talking about her doing something, anything, to satisfy the OP's sexual needs. The OP has accepted the frequent moratoriums on PiV sex. But he has suggested other methods that wouldn't compromise his wife's health, such as anal, oral, or manual. His wife immediately refused anal as having never tried it and refusing to consider it. I think a loving wife would at least consider it, but her position is a common one and not a deal breaker.

However, she also refused oral. She didn't really give a reason for it, beyond not wanting to do it. She has done it in the past with no complaints. But, that was then and this is now. So no dice.

Furthermore, she stated that, while she really wished she didn't have to give manual stimulation, she would begrudgingly agree to that. However, if he wants more action than she is willing to give him, he should feel free to get it from other women.

Now, you may see these actions as those of a woman who loves her husband, but is struggling with a physical ailment. I disagree. I think they are the actions of a woman who is using her condition as an excuse to provide her husband with the bare minimum amount of sexual contact that will keep him around as a meal ticket.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> Being a married man entitles you to squat. Being a decent human being? Now that's where it's at.


Marriage was intended to be a mutually beneficial arrangement. Your attitude, that being a married man only yokes you into serving your wife, and hoping that she is kindhearted enough to tend to your needs in return, is exactly the kind of attitude that is accelerating the decline of marriage as an institution. What sane man would sign up for that kind of arrangement?


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Wow, so many posts.. My wifes health is of the utmost importance to me, however, when I ask her to quit smoking or drinking, she does not, when I ask her to go to the doc and get checked out, it is only when she realizes that she HAS to go because she waited and didnt listen to me...


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Let me be clear again, I do not expect her to do anything sexual until she feels well. Her emphasis was the fact that taking antibiotics cancels out the BC, and therefore, no sex for the following 28-30 days..... Condoms? She hates them, so do I, but its just something else for her to complain about, so then she will just be a dead fish while I "hurry up" so I dont know what the lesser evil is in any scenario.... great conversation tho!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Marriage was intended to be a mutually beneficial arrangement. Your attitude, that being a married man only yokes you into serving your wife, and hoping that she is kindhearted enough to tend to your needs in return, is exactly the kind of attitude that is accelerating the decline of marriage as an institution. What sane man would sign up for that kind of arrangement?


Again, it works both ways. My attitude is the same no matter what your gender. Forget what marriage "means" (anyone who has spent much time on TAM can see there's not much of a consensus) and focus on what it means to be a decent human being. 

I don't, in general, have much use for institutions.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

McMuffin it might be time to make her wonder a little. Go out a few nights a week don't tell her where. give her the impression you are detaching/moving on and see what happens after that. Go hit the gym or something.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> I am talking specifically about giving him the pleasure he deserves. I very much agree this is about bigger problems in the marriage that she refuses to talk about or go to counseling for. Thinking this, if it were me I would demand it or she can leave or I will file. I would do this in hopes it would show her I am not a doormat. If she won't pleasure me or talk to me then she can do with out me. One life folks. Get some enjoyment and if you are in a situation where someone else is purposely hurting you, remove that person from your life. Spouses included. It takes two people committed to the marriage for a marriage to work.
> I do not think demanding it would produce the result of her doing it. I do think it would show her that her H is not going to stay married to someone that tells him to go elsewhere to have his needs met. Maybe that will get her to wake up. BTW she stopped the BJ's before the health issue. Of course if she is ill, there is no expectation of any sexual act until she is ready. I think she will certainly milk the hell out of it though.


Wow, a forced BJ under threat of divorce; I don't understand how you could possibly get anything out of this. But that's just me; I will absolutely not be where I'm not wanted. Also, that would be great for the marital relationship don't you think? "Suck my d$ck now or I'm outta here" would be so good for their intimacy. If my husband said that to me I'd tell him not to let the door hit his a$$ on the way out. Fortunately, OP doesn't sound like the type to do this. OP, I think at this point I'd stop asking her for it, right now she doesn't want to do it and it may well have become a power play between the two of you. Assuming she never gives you another one, can you live with what you've got? Also, it's always possible that when you stop bringing it up you'll get one. You can hope, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> Again, it works both ways. My attitude is the same no matter what your gender. Forget what marriage "means" (anyone who has spent much time on TAM can see there's not much of a consensus) and focus on what it means to be a decent human being.
> 
> I don't, in general, have much use for institutions.


Fair enough. Forget marriage. Substitute the word "relationship" for it. Forget sex. Relationships are supposed to be mutually beneficial for both sexes. Regardless of any other meaning, they should be good for both parties.

And arguing that one party should be allowed to exploit the other is antithetical to that idea. Why would any sane person enter a relationship if they honestly believed that their partner should be allowed to exploit them? That's the kind of arrangement that you think decent human beings belong in?

I disagree.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

treyvion said:


> You have to be. People take advantage of kind people all the time. They will be on the recieving end, with no intention to provide anything in return.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tre he said things were going a bit better before this illness. Do you think reminding her of her duties would support or erode the progress? What she said to him was outrageous. I wonder how she would feel if he rejected her for sex and told her to have sex with another? He should talk to her again about this. I don't think now is a good time. Let things cool off. 

Ask her if she is telling him that she no longer loves or cares about him. If that is the case than they should discuss the next steps to take. However, I believe he should tell her that he is concerned about the repeated infections. Do you think a loving husband should have expressed some concern about the repeated infections before asking her for anal sex and hj or bj? He may have given her the impression that he forgot to think about her. 

They have complimentary needs for care and love. Her health and his sexual frustration. It seems a smart move and relationship building to put the most serious and temporary problem first .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Fair enough. Forget marriage. Substitute the word "relationship" for it. Forget sex. Relationships are supposed to be mutually beneficial for both sexes. Regardless of any other meaning, they should be good for both parties.
> 
> And arguing that one party should be allowed to exploit the other is antithetical to that idea. Why would any sane person enter a relationship if they honestly believed that their partner should be allowed to exploit them? That's the kind of arrangement that you think decent human beings belong in?


I don't argue that. 



PHTlump said:


> I disagree.


As do I.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Mc I hope you come back. After reading your other posts, i changed my mind about the advice i gave you. I feel you have big problems. It's a matter of respect, your wife does not have any for you. 

Right now, that's what you need to address vigorously. I think her bj statement was a continuation of a pattern of outrageous behavior. What are you going to do to get her to respect you? . 

You said you are a nice guy. That's an understatement. You let your wife walk all over you. She did some sh!ty things and you hesitated in addressing those issues in the past. 

Man the fvck up. You need a whole new attitude. You must not hesitate to hit problems head on as soon as they occur. I don't think you have a good model of what you want your marriage to be. Or you are not sure that you deserve her loyalty? 

Erasing tx on her phone - no, tx men - no. Don't watch and let it happen, act. Your problem is not bj. If your wife respected you, she would give you a bj during this dry spell.

Don't talk about sex for now. Handle the disrespect. She is too sure of you. Get yourself in shape and look good. You have very poor boundaries. 

Start with no opposite gender friends as a first thing. Get to the bottom of the get a bj from someone else is the second thing. Post here for support you need it badly. .


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Wow, a forced BJ under threat of divorce; I don't understand how you could possibly get anything out of this. But that's just me; I will absolutely not be where I'm not wanted. Also, that would be great for the marital relationship don't you think? "Suck my d$ck now or I'm outta here" would be so good for their intimacy. If my husband said that to me I'd tell him not to let the door hit his a$$ on the way out. Fortunately, OP doesn't sound like the type to do this. OP, I think at this point I'd stop asking her for it, right now she doesn't want to do it and it may well have become a power play between the two of you. Assuming she never gives you another one, can you live with what you've got? Also, it's always possible that when you stop bringing it up you'll get one. You can hope, right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


might go more like " I am not sure why the oral sex has stopped, but I expect it to continue or for there to be very open and honest discussion as well as sex therapy if needed to discover why. It was something I have desired for a very long time and have asked for repeatedly and it is something you provided prior to and post the date of our marriage. You suddenly can't find it in you to do this for me and I either want to know why, want it to resume, want to go to therapy about it, or divorce because if you cant find it in your heart to take how I feel seriously, there is no point in my being with you any longer."
A bit short of saying suck my c0ck or I divorce you. You guys read things how you want. Just showing what I meant versus where you took what I said.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Mc I hope you come back. After reading your other posts, i changed my mind about the advice i gave you. I feel you have big problems. It's a matter of respect, your wife does not have any for you.
> 
> Right now, that's what you need to address vigorously. I think her bj statement was a continuation of a pattern of outrageous behavior. What are you going to do to get her to respect you? .
> 
> ...


wont suck his b/c she is sucking another guy. This happens b/c of how personal it is for a woman to suck off their real lover.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

nogutsnoglory said:


> wont suck his b/c she is sucking another guy. This happens b/c of how personal it is for a woman to suck off their real lover.


unfortunatly sometimes there is truth to this.


can't say for sure if thats the case with your situation.

I agree with the other posters who advise to work on yourself ,get your finances in order and stop being a nice guy. 


all while snooping and making sure nobody else is in the picture.

if things don't turn around then time for some serious decission making.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I will keep monitoring her and yes I am still working on myself. Being a Nice Guy all the time is an issue for me. I was not begging for anything, her comments tho suggested that she didnt give a damn about doing anything sexual, and I reinforced my needs which led to her statement. So it wasnt like "hey, suck my c0ck instead." I felt generally low as hell and it caught me off guard. I will push through this one way or another.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> might go more like " I am not sure why the oral sex has stopped, but I expect it to continue or for there to be very open and honest discussion as well as sex therapy if needed to discover why. It was something I have desired for a very long time and have asked for repeatedly and it is something you provided prior to and post the date of our marriage. You suddenly can't find it in you to do this for me and I either want to know why, want it to resume, want to go to therapy about it, or divorce because if you cant find it in your heart to take how I feel seriously, there is no point in my being with you any longer."
> A bit short of saying suck my c0ck or I divorce you. You guys read things how you want. Just showing what I meant versus where you took what I said.


But you basically DID say it, you just don't want to come right out and say it.
Still, I get where you're coming from, but I'm still uncomfortable with the idea that people get to demand certain sex acts. Even if you get them to do it all it means is an unwilling partner that will resent the h&ll out of you. The idea of someone doing something with me that they don't want to do makes me sick, but maybe you have a tolerance for that. As a married person you a certainly entitled to a sex life but what that means exactly must be negotiated, not demanded. Still, after reading more of Mc's posts it seems like this is part of a greater intimacy issue which could benefit from outside help. He never did answer the question of whether taking on his sister's kids was a completely mutual decision. I'd bet this put more stress on her then he realizes. Bottom line is that you can demand sex acts but it won't lead to a healthy marriage, so you have to consider your ultimate goal. FYI: if my husband told me to get sex acts somewhere else I'd do it; that would be way more palatable to me then having an unwilling partner, but that's a personal decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Still, I get where you're coming from, but I'm still uncomfortable with the idea that people get to demand certain sex acts. Even if you get them to do it all it means is an unwilling partner that will resent the h&ll out of you. The idea of someone doing something with me that they don't want to do makes me sick, but maybe you have a tolerance for that.


Let's explore that. Let's take a hypothetical couple of Mr. and Mrs. Doe. Early in their marriage, they had an active and varied sex life. Everything except other people was at least occasionally practiced.

However, over time, Mrs. Doe starts pulling back. First, it's no more anal. Then, it's no more oral. Then, it's a drastic limit on PiV. Finally, she makes it known that she would prefer to end all sex entirely. But, she's willing to begrudgingly give her husband some manual stimulation a couple of times a month. Just enough so that he can't claim she's cut him off entirely. What a woman.

What you seem to be saying is that Mr. Doe should meekly accept all of this. After all, standing up for marriage as a sexual relationship would mean that Mrs. Doe is nothing more than a sex slave to be used for his pleasure, right?


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Yes it was a mutual decision between both of us. We knew that we didnt want them to go anywhere else except with family and we were the only ones who could support them and had room. Neither one of us regret taking them on, it is a stressfull situation though. Yes my wife views it as more work that she has to do, but I willingly help her in every aspect of it. 

I get what your saying about her just doing it but only because I "made" her, but I do things everyday for her that I dont necessarliy want to do, but do out of love and respect. Perhaps I should stop doing these?


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> But you basically DID say it, you just don't want to come right out and say it.
> Still, I get where you're coming from, but I'm still uncomfortable with the idea that people get to demand certain sex acts. Even if you get them to do it all it means is an unwilling partner that will resent the h&ll out of you. The idea of someone doing something with me that they don't want to do makes me sick, but maybe you have a tolerance for that. As a married person you a certainly entitled to a sex life but what that means exactly must be negotiated, not demanded. Still, after reading more of Mc's posts it seems like this is part of a greater intimacy issue which could benefit from outside help. He never did answer the question of whether taking on his sister's kids was a completely mutual decision. I'd bet this put more stress on her then he realizes. Bottom line is that you can demand sex acts but it won't lead to a healthy marriage, so you have to consider your ultimate goal. FYI: if my husband told me to get sex acts somewhere else I'd do it; that would be way more palatable to me then having an unwilling partner, but that's a personal decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

you are still missing the message. I am not demanding anything but for the H to demand a satisfying marriage. That includes the sex he had been receiving and giving since the start of their sexual relationship. If the wife has lost the desire then she is to explain herself. She has not explained (with truth) and has shown to not care about how this makes her H feel. It is obvious it points to problems (non sexual most likely) in their marriage. Since H has no idea what is going on, he would be if he took my advice, drawing a line in the marital sand and will either get an answer he can live with, wake his wife up to the effects of her new found libido issues, admit her affair if there is one, or allow him to see she simply is checked out and does not care he is hurt nor cares to address the issue and help the marriage. This would give him the information he needs to move forward in what ever way he wishes based on her response. He would not be forcing a blow job, he would be forcing his wife to engage in the marriage. Lets not forget the importance of sex in marriage. not to mention the importance of truly caring how we make out partner feel emotionally. I think he is actually in big trouble in this marriage and is simply not informed as to what is going on. Just my guess at this point. I think if he really dug in and keylogged, var'd, etc... He would find his answer.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Let's explore that. Let's take a hypothetical couple of Mr. and Mrs. Doe. Early in their marriage, they had an active and varied sex life. Everything except other people was at least occasionally practiced.
> 
> However, over time, Mrs. Doe starts pulling back. First, it's no more anal. Then, it's no more oral. Then, it's a drastic limit on PiV. Finally, she makes it known that she would prefer to end all sex entirely. But, she's willing to begrudgingly give her husband some manual stimulation a couple of times a month. Just enough so that he can't claim she's cut him off entirely. What a woman.
> 
> What you seem to be saying is that Mr. Doe should meekly accept all of this. After all, standing up for marriage as a sexual relationship would mean that Mrs. Doe is nothing more than a sex slave to be used for his pleasure, right?


First of all, you left out the part where I said that sex lives are negotiated. What you're describing is not negotiating, and could easily apply to men that wine and dine their girlfriends then little by little drop this after marriage. This happens all the time, yet nobody defends a woman's right to continue to be wined and dined, even though she can't get this somewhere else because then she's having an EA and her husband must go ballistic. People change, situations change, and things must be renotiated from time to time. If Mrs. Doe cuts him off all be herself that's another matter, but there is usually a reason for that and they would need to find out what it is, and it's not always going to be another man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> Yes it was a mutual decision between both of us. We knew that we didnt want them to go anywhere else except with family and we were the only ones who could support them and had room. Neither one of us regret taking them on, it is a stressfull situation though. Yes my wife views it as more work that she has to do, but I willingly help her in every aspect of it.
> 
> I get what your saying about her just doing it but only because I "made" her, but I do things everyday for her that I dont necessarliy want to do, but do out of love and respect. Perhaps I should stop doing these?


Appreciate you clarifying the kids decision. I agree with you that she should do things you like, I just don't think the answer is simply demanding it or you're walking. You are certainly within your rights to decide you don't want to live with what you have, but the fact that your wife is not open to doing things that make you happy suggest other issues in the marriage. Could there be something going on with her you're not aware of? Some here will just assume there's someone else but could there be something bothering her you're not aware of?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> First of all, you left out the part where I said that sex lives are negotiated. What you're describing is not negotiating, and could easily apply to men that wine and dine their girlfriends then little by little drop this after marriage. This happens all the time, yet nobody defends a woman's right to continue to be wined and dined, even though she can't get this somewhere else because then she's having an EA and her husband must go ballistic. People change, situations change, and things must be renotiated from time to time. If Mrs. Doe cuts him off all be herself that's another matter, but there is usually a reason for that and they would need to find out what it is, and it's not always going to be another man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A woman's right to be wined and dined would be a completely different thread. What you are really talking about is when a man gets comfortable and stops putting in the effort to make his W feel special. There have been countless threads about this by men and women on TAM. Don't act like men don't address these issues or that it is not discussed. It surely is. There is a similarity to what you are saying as both examples show a partner not addressing the needs of the other. If I were a wife and my H stopped making me feel loved in any way I would make a change either in him, in us, or if that failed I would change me, by moving on.

H needs to demand change in her, them, or himself and move on with out her.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> A woman's right to be wined and dined would be a completely different thread. What you are really talking about is when a man gets comfortable and stops putting in the effort to make his W feel special. There have been countless threads about this by men and women on TAM. Don't act like men don't address these issues or that it is not discussed. It surely is. There is a similarity to what you are saying as both examples show a partner not addressing the needs of the other. If I were a wife and my H stopped making me feel loved in any way I would make a change either in him, in us, or if that failed I would change me, by moving on.
> 
> H needs to demand change in her, them, or himself and move on with out her.



I would agree that both spouses need to continue to put effort in to make the other feel special, though I still think that mens sex lives are addressed with more fervor. We'll let that one go in the interests of avoiding a thread jack. In this particular case we are not only talking about sex but particular sex acts. So what if my hb brought me flowers early on but no so much anymore? Now let's say he does lots of other stuff, like taking care of the house and yard, going to work, etc, but I really want flowers. Do I still get to be upset that I don't get flowers, or would I be told that I should consider all of the other things he does because "that's how men show they care"? I'd bet the later, but what if I really want flowers? Can I demand that my needs be met and if they're not I'm walking, and will my hb be able to complain that he's being forced to give? I've heard that one before: "my wife wants little gifts but I don't line being forced too give". Now, I'm confused; is this about BJ's in particular or overall intimacy? Because in my mind the two suggest different issues.
FWIW, i think this is a healthy discussion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I would agree that both spouses need to continue to put effort in to make the other feel special, though I still think that mens sex lives are addressed with more fervor. We'll let that one go in the interests of avoiding a thread jack. In this particular case we are not only talking about sex but particular sex acts. So what if my hb brought me flowers early on but no so much anymore? Now let's say he does lots of other stuff, like taking care of the house and yard, going to work, etc, but I really want flowers. Do I still get to be upset that I don't get flowers, or would I be told that I should consider all of the other things he does because "that's how men show they care"? I'd bet the later, but what if I really want flowers? Can I demand that my needs be met and if they're not I'm walking, and will my hb be able to complain that he's being forced to give? I've heard that one before: "my wife wants little gifts but I don't line being forced too give". Now, I'm confused; is this about BJ's in particular or overall intimacy? Because in my mind the two suggest different issues.
> FWIW, i think this is a healthy discussion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Okay I will bite,
if you receiving the flowers was one of the most important parts of the relationship in your mind (since you are comparing the need to feel desired and validated sexually within a marriage and receiving flowers from a guy who does it all but does not buy the flowers he used to buy), then yes by all means you should communicate the importance of the flowers and the H should hear your needs are not being met and buy them for you. absolutely. Why would he not? In your example he does all else to take care of you and is showing he loves you, so if you came to him and told him he was accidentally making you feel less loved or desired due to the lack of flowers, I would assume he would be sad to hear this, as he tries (in his own way) to do what he thinks, is showing you he loves you. Now depending on how much this person does for you in comparison to what you do for him the flowers may be a very selfish need on your part, but that is only relevant if this was a real scenario. A good marriage would be one expressing feelings and the other not needing to always agree but understand and respect the others. In this relationship this is not what is going on at all. She is casting him aside.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> First of all, you left out the part where I said that sex lives are negotiated.


Because we're not really talking about negotiating. You're saying that husbands of wives who don't want to perform certain sex acts should just accept their wives' decisions. Where is the compromise in that?



> What you're describing is not negotiating, and could easily apply to men that wine and dine their girlfriends then little by little drop this after marriage. This happens all the time, yet nobody defends a woman's right to continue to be wined and dined, even though she can't get this somewhere else because then she's having an EA and her husband must go ballistic.


I think most reasonable people would agree that marriage should, and even must, be a sexual relationship. I don't know that most reasonable people would agree that marriage should entail endless courtship.



> People change, situations change, and things must be renotiated from time to time.


Agreed. But obligations don't change. Marriage should be a sexual relationship. Both spouses have a lifelong obligation to tend to the needs, sexual and otherwise, of the other person.

I would be really angry if my wife came to me, acknowledged that she made a vow to meet my needs for life, and then requested a negotiation (which really isn't a negotiation) to be let out of her end of the bargain.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Okay I will bite,
> if you receiving the flowers was one of the most important parts of the relationship in your mind (since you are comparing the need to feel desired and validated sexually within a marriage and receiving flowers from a guy who does it all but does not buy the flowers he used to buy), then yes by all means you should communicate the importance of the flowers and the H should hear your needs are not being met and buy them for you. absolutely. Why would he not? In your example he does all else to take care of you and is showing he loves you, so if you came to him and told him he was accidentally making you feel less loved or desired due to the lack of flowers, I would assume he would be sad to hear this, as he tries (in his own way) to do what he thinks, is showing you he loves you. Now depending on how much this person does for you in comparison to what you do for him the flowers may be a very selfish need on your part, but that is only relevant if this was a real scenario. A good marriage would be one expressing feelings and the other not needing to always agree but understand and respect the others. In this relationship this is not what is going on at all. She is casting him aside.


So it's not really about BJ's, but overall intimacy? What if she does other things to show she cares? Why wouldn't that be enough? I know the flowers example is silly, and I don't really feel that way about flowers, but if this really about the BJ's I have to assume she's doing other things to show she loves him. As in if a few BJ's is all it takes to make him feel special then she's doing lots of other things. If not then it's not really about the BJ's. Personally I think a few BJ's here and there are a small price to make your hb feel special, but I'm not his wife and don't know anything about her thoughts or situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> I agree with you that she should do things you like, I just don't think the answer is simply demanding it or you're walking. You are certainly within your rights to decide you don't want to live with what you have, but the fact that your wife is not open to doing things that make you happy suggest other issues in the marriage.


For the record, I agree with this. And not because wives have the right to withhold sex from their husbands. But because women, in general, aren't going to be swayed with logical arguments. In order to get your wife to have passionate sex with you, reminding her of her vows, her obligations, and then allowing her to work on meeting her duties is very unlikely to work. What is much more likely to work is to appeal to her emotions so that she becomes more attracted to you and wants to have sex with you more often. That's why Game is such a great tool for marriages.

Unfortunately, that's just the way the world works.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Folks need to get rid of their rose colored glasses when it comes to marriage. It's a leap of faith. If you're under the impression that the person you are marrying isn't a complex creature who is likely to change (as you are), then you're in for a world of hurt. 

I do what I want to do in my marriage--I do nothing because of obligation. My husband has a the choice of leaving when what I want to do no longer suits him.

He can ask, and I might comply, but it's because I wanted to--either because I love him and want to make him happy, or I see a benefit for me, the family, or the marriage. I've made the mistake of giving into demands without wanting to AT ALL--hard to maintain much of a feeling of self worth after. Lying to myself, lying to my husband: not a situation I can live with. 

If I was the OP, no way would I take BJ's given out of obligation, fear, or just to shut me up. If that's the sort of "change" that's good enough, then the marriage is still broken for both of you, whether or not you admit it.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Are BJ's really that important? Or is this something wives are just expected to do even if if they don't like it, meaning husbands are entitled to them? I'm genuinely curious here as I don't mind giving them my husband, but maybe some women just don't care for them. Is that a crime?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm going to give all you women some of the best advice you'll ever hear, whether you perceive it so or not. 

If you aren't willing to give your husband blowjobs on at least a semi-regular basis, someone else will. They really are that important. 

Belittle the reality all you want. Conjure up slanted perceptions of what is shallow and what is substantial. Summon every accusation of superficiality you can muster, it will not change truth. 

If your husband asks you for oral sex and you're not giving it to him, he will get it from someone else.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> Folks need to get rid of their rose colored glasses when it comes to marriage. It's a leap of faith. If you're under the impression that the person you are marrying isn't a complex creature who is likely to change (as you are), then you're in for a world of hurt.
> 
> I do what I want to do in my marriage--I do nothing because of obligation. My husband has a the choice of leaving when what I want to do no longer suits him.


I'm assuming you wrote your own marriage vows? I have been to many weddings and I'm yet to hear a version of the vows that states: I vow to do whatever I want without regard for my husband. If he doesn't like it, he can divorce me whenever he wants. But I get cash and prizes.

Any man who said, "I do" after those vows really would be taking a leap of faith.

I guess I'm a traditional romantic, but I just can't appreciate that view of marriage. I'm not saying it's unrealistic. Unfortunately, we live in an age of frivolous divorce and narcissism.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I'm assuming you wrote your own marriage vows? I have been to many weddings and I'm yet to hear a version of the vows that states: I vow to do whatever I want without regard for my husband. If he doesn't like it, he can divorce me whenever he wants. But I get cash and prizes.
> 
> Any man who said, "I do" after those vows really would be taking a leap of faith.
> 
> I guess I'm a traditional romantic, but I just can't appreciate that view of marriage. I'm not saying it's unrealistic. Unfortunately, we live in an age of frivolous divorce and narcissism.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Folks need to get rid of their rose colored glasses when it comes to marriage. It's a leap of faith. If you're under the impression that the person you are marrying isn't a complex creature who is likely to change (as you are), then you're in for a world of hurt.
> 
> I do what I want to do in my marriage--I do nothing because of obligation. My husband has a the choice of leaving when what I want to do no longer suits him.
> 
> ...


I technically agree with you. Exceedingly technically. But I don't think you would be objective if the extreme nature of your philosophy were to be pushed.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I'm assuming you wrote your own marriage vows? I have been to many weddings and I'm yet to hear a version of the vows that states: I vow to do whatever I want without regard for my husband. If he doesn't like it, he can divorce me whenever he wants. But I get cash and prizes.
> 
> Any man who said, "I do" after those vows really would be taking a leap of faith.
> 
> I guess I'm a traditional romantic, but I just can't appreciate that view of marriage. I'm not saying it's unrealistic. Unfortunately, we live in an age of frivolous divorce and narcissism.


I think being realistic is a far more important indicator of marital success than romance. Romance in marriage is a social construct that didn't take off until popularized in literature. It's great, it feels good . . . but it's not going to carry you thought the really tough times. 

Go ahead, stand face to face with your intended and say the usual words. It's a fun tradition, it's what the crowd wants to hear. But these words are not the foundation of a successful marriage. The ideals behind them are beautiful, but success at them is a process, not a guarantee conveyed upon their utterance. 

If you find yourself, a year, ten years, into your marriage declaring indignantly, "But you PROMISED! You SAID the words!" and expecting _that_ to bring the change you need, then you've done yourself AND your spouse a disservice.

It floors me that people expect their relationships not to change. And then when they do inevitably change, they want an easy fix. 

The ONLY agency you have in a marriage is over yourself. You cannot change your partner. Looking into someone's eyes, listening to them promise to love and protect and etc. feels wonderful, and I'm not saying it's not a pretty representation of an ideal, but you owe it to yourself and your spouse to understand them as such. 

Knowing and accepting this going in is far more effective indicator of marital success. We have frivolous divorce and narcissism because of the illusion that saying the words is enough. It's not.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Vanguard said:


> I technically agree with you. Exceedingly technically. But I don't think you would be objective if the extreme nature of your philosophy were to be pushed.


Although I might have phrased my "philosophy" in an extreme way, I don't think it's extreme at all.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I'm assuming you wrote your own marriage vows? I have been to many weddings and I'm yet to hear a version of the vows that states: I vow to do whatever I want without regard for my husband. If he doesn't like it, he can divorce me whenever he wants. But I get cash and prizes.


Of course no one says these things on their wedding day. Weddings are a suspension of realty, at least for a day. 

But to stand in front of your intended and be blind to their humanity, their frailty, their vulnerabilities, weaknesses and fears is not to acknowledge them fully. 

Worse, to make your own vows without fully knowing yourself in the same way, is just . . . well, not good. 

I said the words to my husband, he said them to me. It was fun, it was sweet . . . but we had already been together for 11 years, and we were fully aware of their purely symbolic nature.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Although I might have phrased my "philosophy" in an extreme way, I don't think it's extreme at all.


I actually think it's just the opposite. Your description of your own philosophy fails to articulate the parameters or the vast implications of those parameters tethered to it.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Vanguard said:


> I actually think it's just the opposite. Your description of your own philosophy fails to articulate the parameters or the vast implications of those parameters tethered to it.


In all honestly, I didn't think the implications or the parameters were all that vast.

"Take responsibility for your own happiness." 

There, is that better?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Life,
I actually think your example below is perfectly valid. 

Spouse 1: Has a need (represented by a love language) that has always been very important to them. It is something their partner did early on and could easily continue to do. 

When a partner chooses to withhold this type of love/support, they usually have a reason. It may be a good reason, or a somewhat insane reason. 

You can do an amazing amount of damage to a marriage by dismissing 'small' requests/needs. 







lifeistooshort said:


> I would agree that both spouses need to continue to put effort in to make the other feel special, though I still think that mens sex lives are addressed with more fervor. We'll let that one go in the interests of avoiding a thread jack. In this particular case we are not only talking about sex but particular sex acts. So what if my hb brought me flowers early on but no so much anymore? Now let's say he does lots of other stuff, like taking care of the house and yard, going to work, etc, but I really want flowers. Do I still get to be upset that I don't get flowers, or would I be told that I should consider all of the other things he does because "that's how men show they care"? I'd bet the later, but what if I really want flowers? Can I demand that my needs be met and if they're not I'm walking, and will my hb be able to complain that he's being forced to give? I've heard that one before: "my wife wants little gifts but I don't line being forced too give". Now, I'm confused; is this about BJ's in particular or overall intimacy? Because in my mind the two suggest different issues.
> FWIW, i think this is a healthy discussion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Indeed, and making me believe it is okay to go get a BJ elsewhere is basically saying, I dont care if your happy or not, but I am not going to do this to make you happy because I dont want to and your not going to make me either.... kind of hurts really = rejection.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

McMuffin said:


> Indeed, and making me believe it is okay to go get a BJ elsewhere is basically saying, I dont care if your happy or not, but I am not going to do this to make you happy because I dont want to and your not going to make me either.... kind of hurts really = rejection.


Now comes a tough decision, are you going to keep on putting up with this lack of respect.
That is totally your call and not an easy one.
Just my lousy 2 cents.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> I think being realistic is a far more important indicator of marital success than romance. Romance in marriage is a social construct that didn't take off until popularized in literature. It's great, it feels good . . . but it's not going to carry you thought the really tough times.


I agree. But I very much doubt that exploitive narcissism is the path to happiness, either.



> Go ahead, stand face to face with your intended and say the usual words. It's a fun tradition, it's what the crowd wants to hear. But these words are not the foundation of a successful marriage. The ideals behind them are beautiful, but success at them is a process, not a guarantee conveyed upon their utterance.


Guaranteed success, no. But I think success can be positively correlated with how seriously couples take their vows.



> Knowing and accepting this going in is far more effective indicator of marital success. We have frivolous divorce and narcissism because of the illusion that saying the words is enough. It's not.


I agree that saying the words is not enough. But, I think frivolous divorce is more a result of people refusing to take the vows seriously. When people view marriage as nothing more than a convenience that can be dissolved with no negative consequences, that's exactly what it becomes.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> I said the words to my husband, he said them to me. It was fun, it was sweet . . . but we had already been together for 11 years, and we were fully aware of their purely symbolic nature.


As long as you both understood that you didn't mean them, then I guess there's no harm. But most people assume that their spouses take their vows seriously. That could be a great shock if, a few years down the road, one learns that one's spouse never committed to the marriage the way one thought.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Now comes a tough decision, are you going to keep on putting up with this lack of respect.
> That is totally your call and not an easy one.
> Just my lousy 2 cents.


I think it's a mistake to characterize this as a lack of respect, and a lot of men on this board seem to think this way. It implies that if he just stands up and demands respect she'll all of a sudden be on her knees, and as a woman I'm saying that is unlikely to work. Sex acts are unique this way, and require more intimacy for women to engage in them then they do for men. Demanding respect is not going to create the required intimacy. It would be more appropriate to characterize this as a lack of concern that this one thing might make him happy, and that is what he should focus on in a loving manner. If that doesn't work nothing will. If she thinks he'll walk she might suck it up for a little while, but if she doesn't want to do it it'll be temporary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

The relationship is a disaster. Reducing this to discussion about the pivotal importance of a BJ is ridiculous.

How many threads are there like this? 'things would be sooo much better if the sex was mind-blowing'. 

How are things outside the bedroom?

Horrible but it would be so much better if the sex was fast and furious! 

Sex. is. not. the. problem. here. right?

As always - I will mindlessly yammer about how sex is only going to happen (yeah.. including BJs) when you are both really into each other. If its a chore - you have already lost the battle no matter how you try to slice, dice and haggle your way into some kind of 'arrangement' or agreement. At least- that is how I feel about it.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I agree. But I very much doubt that exploitive narcissism is the path to happiness, either.


It's not as though I'm arguing for "exploitive narcissism" and you are arguing for fairy tale ideals. People don't choose between those two extremes when they get married.

There is nothing wrong with romance (I love it) as long as it's backed up by a healthy understanding of the realities and complexities of long term relationships. 




PHTlump said:


> Guaranteed success, no. But I think success can be positively correlated with how seriously couples take their vows.


I don't disagree. However, "how seriously one takes their vows" is so subjective as to be almost useless. For example, I didn't promise to continue to give BJ's in my vows, but, judging my some comments I've read, it's my marital obligation to do so if it's one of my husband's "needs." I reject that I am obligated to give him BJ's if I no longer can do it with pleasure. And don't tell me he still goes to work every day even if he can't do it "with pleasure." Allowing someone's d*ck in your mouth (or vagina) is unlike other so-called "marital obligations." And yes, it can be even MORE difficult to do with someone you have a complex relationship with. There have been times in my marriage when I'd much rather have blown a random stranger than my own husband. 

Folks like to call that the "bait and switch." I say that is a convenient way to avoid facing the fact that people change, circumstances change, feeling change. Relationships are not static, they are dynamic. What you get today from your partner might not be what you get ten years from now. That's not a violation of vows. That's personal growth/education, response to stimuli (kids, job stress, etc.), changes in physical health, response to changes in a spouse, and, yes, sometimes plain old laziness or selfishness.

As far as loss of intimacy goes, changing back is possible, but only by getting to the emotional root of loss of desire for sex in general or a particular act specifically. The OP's wife has to be motivated to do this on her own--just looking for the short cut by saying, "it's in your vows, so do it" is to hope for that fairy tale to come to the rescue. What you can and should hope for and ask for is for her to take a hard look at her inability to be intimate and search for the root cause so it can be productively addressed. 

Not what husbands desperate for a blow job want to hear, I know. 




PHTlump said:


> I agree that saying the words is not enough. But, I think frivolous divorce is more a result of people refusing to take the vows seriously. When people view marriage as nothing more than a convenience that can be dissolved with no negative consequences, that's exactly what it becomes.


To whom is the divorce "frivolous?" Who judges what makes a divorce "frivolous?" You've been around TAM long enough to know that what causes significant emotional pain for one person is accepted by another as not a deal breaker.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> As long as you both understood that you didn't mean them, then I guess there's no harm. But most people assume that their spouses take their vows seriously. That could be a great shock if, a few years down the road, one learns that one's spouse never committed to the marriage the way one thought.


We didn't have to "assume" anything about the vows the other was making on our wedding day. We already _knew._

I would never have married my husband if I needed him to say the vows.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> Allowing someone's d*ck in your mouth (or vagina) is unlike other so-called "marital obligations."


If you say so. Although, some men may think that their obligations are special and they deserve special accommodation if they should choose to abandon them.



> Folks like to call that the "bait and switch." I say that is a convenient way to avoid facing the fact that people change, circumstances change, feeling change. Relationships are not static, they are dynamic. What you get today from your partner might not be what you get ten years from now. That's not a violation of vows. That's personal growth/education, response to stimuli (kids, job stress, etc.), changes in physical health, response to changes in a spouse, and, yes, sometimes plain old laziness or selfishness.


I agree. But, as I said before, obligations don't change. When you marry a man, you take on an obligation to have a sexual relationship with that man for life. Yes, I recognize that the sexual relationship can change over time. That's natural and understandable. What is unnatural and inexcusable is to, at some point in the future, refuse to fulfill your obligations, yet expect your spouse to continue to fulfill his.



> As far as loss of intimacy goes, changing back is possible, but only by getting to the emotional root of loss of desire for sex in general or a particular act specifically. The OP's wife has to be motivated to do this on her own--just looking for the short cut by saying, "it's in your vows, so do it" is to hope for that fairy tale to come to the rescue. What you can and should hope for and ask for is for her to take a hard look at her inability to be intimate and search for the root cause so it can be productively addressed.


I agree that it's best if a woman fulfill's her sexual obligations out of her own desire. But I disagree that it's the only way. I doubt that most women would accept a husband's lack of desire to work as an acceptable excuse for his refusal to provide for the family. Most women would probably want him to work on his desire to work while he continues to earn an income and not support an indefinite leave of absence from his job so that he can be introspective and wait for his desire to earn to return to him.



> To whom is the divorce "frivolous?" Who judges what makes a divorce "frivolous?" You've been around TAM long enough to know that what causes significant emotional pain for one person is accepted by another as not a deal breaker.


I think there are reasons for divorce that are universally seen as justifiable. Adultery, abuse, and abandonment are among those reasons that even the most ardent marriage supporters would accept. Growing apart, losing sexual desire, and things of that nature would be frivolous things that I think people who take their vows seriously could agree to stay married and work on.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> We didn't have to "assume" anything about the vows the other was making on our wedding day. We already _knew._


Great. Communication about marital expectations is vital for couples considering marriage.



> I would never have married my husband if I needed him to say the vows.


And I never would have married my wife if I knew that she didn't mean hers.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> And I never would have married my wife if I knew that she didn't mean hers.


I'm sure she meant them when she said them. I think we all do, or believe we do. 

You can't force her to honor a version of them that you decide upon years later, though. (Did she vow to give you BJ's? To have sex with you as frequently as she does now?) You can leave if you don't think she is honoring them as you understood them, but that's all you can do. 

_She_ has to decide whether or not she's honoring them, and, if not, whether she wants to do something about it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> If you say so. Although, some men may think that their obligations are special and they deserve special accommodation if they should choose to abandon them.
> 
> 
> I agree. But, as I said before, obligations don't change. When you marry a man, you take on an obligation to have a sexual relationship with that man for life. Yes, I recognize that the sexual relationship can change over time. That's natural and understandable. What is unnatural and inexcusable is to, at some point in the future, refuse to fulfill your obligations, yet expect your spouse to continue to fulfill his.
> ...



Who defines these obligations? Married people deserve a sex life but who gets to decide what that should mean? From the tone of a lot of posts on TAM many men seem to think that they are to get as much sex of any type that they want, or their needs are not being met. What if a spouse decides they require S&M to make them feel special? I know a lot of men don't want to hear this but men do not get to dictate their sex life just because they got married. Sex lives, like everything else in a marriage, have to be negotiated between both parties.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> If you say so. Although, some men may think that their obligations are special and they deserve special accommodation if they should choose to abandon them.


Sorry, I'm not understanding this--do you have an example?:scratchhead:



PHTlump said:


> I agree. But, as I said before, obligations don't change. When you marry a man, you take on an obligation to have a sexual relationship with that man for life. Yes, I recognize that the sexual relationship can change over time. That's natural and understandable. What is unnatural and inexcusable is to, at some point in the future, refuse to fulfill your obligations, yet expect your spouse to continue to fulfill his.


If a couple agrees that there is a sexual obligation, then it goes for both spouses. It's not just the woman taking on the obligation to have a sexual relationship for life--the man agrees to the same terms. 

And it's definitely not the woman agreeing to have a sexual relationship in exchange for non-sexual obligations from the husband. At least not in this century. If men still think they can trade being a good provider for sex in marriage, they are going to experience FAIL at some point. 



PHTlump said:


> I agree that it's best if a woman fulfill's her sexual obligations out of her own desire. But I disagree that it's the only way. I doubt that most women would accept a husband's lack of desire to work as an acceptable excuse for his refusal to provide for the family. Most women would probably want him to work on his desire to work while he continues to earn an income and not support an indefinite leave of absence from his job so that he can be introspective and wait for his desire to earn to return to him.


I can agree with this: "I doubt most women would accept a man's lack of desire for her sexually as an excuse for his continual refusal to have sex with her."

*or*

"I doubt most men would accept a woman's lack of desire to fulfill her contributions to the household as an excuse for continual refusal to contribute." 

Stop mixing apples and oranges. Sexual desire is unique, and it works differently in men and women. Everyone, on the other hand, hates to work.




PHTlump said:


> I think there are reasons for divorce that are universally seen as justifiable. Adultery, abuse, and abandonment are among those reasons that even the most ardent marriage supporters would accept. Growing apart, losing sexual desire, and things of that nature would be frivolous things that I think people who take their vows seriously could agree to stay married and work on.


Yeah, but when you get down to brass tacks, things like "abandonment" and even "abuse" are fairly subjective. Hell, we have guys on here saying that lack of BJ's equates to abandonment of needs. 

It comes down to the quality of life you are willing to accept. One man's "justifiable" is another's "frivolous." 

Tell your spouse what you need NOW, in THIS phase of your relationship. (Yes! They might be different needs than when you got married--you have permission to change, too!) Evaluate what he or she is she is willing to do to meet those needs lovingly, willingly, and in good faith. Stop hearkening back to nebulous, non specific vows you took decades ago before you experienced this thing called life.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> Reason for the BJ conversation... she gets frequent kidney infections. Why... I dont know...neither does she. When she takes the anitbiotics, its 28 days of no sex. Our current deal was a minimum of once per week, recently it had become twice per week until her kidney infection. So..... I started explaining other sexual acts; anal, oral, handjob. She immediately knocked down anal and oral, and said she didnt really want to do handjobs, but it was the lesser evil of the three....
> 
> She used to do it willingly... never a complaint, only that I don't unload in her mouth.. Yes I shower daily, but two reasons why that she listed was the smell and taste... when I asked her to elaborate, she said it really was the same when she was doing it before, but then said "i guess being a mom changes you into not wanting to do that stuff..." and yes that was a direct quote. I keep myself meticulously trimmed everywhere (everywhere!), and always ensure that I am clean. I have been trying to smell myself today, but I just cant seem to get my head down there that far... lol


If you could you would not need her


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The post below is not only untrue for a 'strong willed boundary testing female', it is the opposite of the 'real dynamic' which is much more driven by sexual excitement that is generated by a male partner demonstrating strength when challenged. With that type of woman, too much intimacy will kill desire faster and more completely than anything else. 

And strength is defined as either the absence of fear or the willingness to do the right thing despite being fearful. 

For example: The 'rate' of sexual rejection suddenly begins to spike. And rejection can be as blunt as a partners direct refusal to 
connect. More often, it is initially less direct and shows up as an escalating pattern of avoidance behavior or a markedly reduced level of participation in sex. 

It is weak or selfish for the partner being rejected to blindly continue to initiate at the same rate when rejection (in whatever form) has gone from rare to common. 

It is not 'strong', to be 'aggressive' in that situation. Real strength comes from enforcing boundaries, paying closer attention and asking questions. 

The first question is the hardest. Is sex something I do 'to' my partner or 'with' my partner. Because continuing to initiate frequently with a spouse who provides 'corpse sex', or 'sex without kissing', implies you are doing it 'to them', not 'with them'. 

And strength also means that when their words and actions are completely opposite, you say so. So if you start, and your partner is not responding to you, you stop. 





lifeistooshort said:


> I think it's a mistake to characterize this as a lack of respect, and a lot of men on this board seem to think this way. It implies that if he just stands up and demands respect she'll all of a sudden be on her knees, and as a woman I'm saying that is unlikely to work. Sex acts are unique this way, and require more intimacy for women to engage in them then they do for men. Demanding respect is not going to create the required intimacy. It would be more appropriate to characterize this as a lack of concern that this one thing might make him happy, and that is what he should focus on in a loving manner. If that doesn't work nothing will. If she thinks he'll walk she might suck it up for a little while, but if she doesn't want to do it it'll be temporary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

My ex wife said the same thing to me once, maybe 2 years before she split for another guy.

The difference was that I did not bring it up, or it was her response to anything I said, or suggested. It was almost out of the blue. She also had TMJ, so keeping her mouth open for any longer than a few seconds would sometimes cause her jaw to lock open. Not fun. It happened at least once that I can remember while she was in the act, and it was not pleasant for her...

Now, at the time, I didn't think much of it. It kind of took me by surprise, but I genuinely thought she was just being nice, given her circumstances. Of course, I didn't take her up on it, or even give it a second thought, but it was there, and I found it weird.

I mentioned it to a female friend of mine, several weeks later, just to see what she would make of it. (this is a childhood friend of mine, who I trusted implicitly). Her response was basically "oh", and I remember her making this face.

Looking back on it now, knowing everything that my ex-wife had done, I now have a very different view on this arrangement that she offered me. I went from thinking that she was telling me I could do this because she genuinely didn't want me to leave her because she wasn't able to perform this act, to "she offered this to me because she really didn't care if I put my **** in somebody else's mouth".

And why would she not care? Very likely that she had done something, and this was her way of atoning herself.

As I said, she ended up leaving me for somebody else (they met on the internet!) about 2 years later, and there was evidence of cheating prior to that, not just with this guy, but very likely with one or two more. I was so blind over the 14 years, that cheating never occurred to me, until it happened. Then I started to look back at incidents, and behaviour, and conversations we'd had over the years, and it became vastly apparent that this was likely not the first and only time she ever stepped over the marital boundaries. I just trusted her implicitly, to the point where it never even crossed my mind in the slightest, even though most men and women would have had red flags and flashing lights. I did not pursue this evidence any further, because it really didn't matter to me. Our innate need to know everything can really mess with your head, so I chose to leave it at what I knew, and that was that.

So, in hindsight, it was very possible that when my ex-wife mentioned this to me, that she had, or was in the midst of, doing something similar herself, and she saw an opportunity to make herself feel less guilty.

Now, I did not read all 10 pages of this thread, just the first few, so somebody else may have already suggested at what I'm hinting at, but there you go.

At the very least, your wife simply doesn't care about where you put your penis, and that's almost as bad. I don't know about the rest of you, but if for some reason (ED? TMJ? Injury?) we weren't able to provide for our partners sexually 100%, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with my wife having another partner - even if it's "just" oral, or what have you. Now if, god forbid, you were paralyzed and really couldn't do *anything*, then sure. I'd rather have a wife and partner, then no wife or partner at all, under those circumstances. But if I lost my tongue in a horrific knife fight or something, I certainly wouldn't be okay telling my wife she can have another man pleasure her that way, if I am capable of doing everything else but use my tongue... And if it was THAT important to her, I'd have an issue as well.


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## Joylush (Sep 28, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Why don't you invite her to sit down at the computer with you. Bring up Sexsearch and Adult Friend Finder and tell her you're going to make profiles on them to get your BJ's and you'd like her input as to what exactly should you put up. Should you put up a full-on nude pic of you with a hard on, or just a close up of the hard on? What should your username be? Which choices should you check off as to what exactly you're looking for? Where can you arrange to meet for these BJ's? Can it be at home or would it have to be at a motel or in your car?
> 
> Don't take no for an answer - act like you're all serious about it and you really want her input because you don't want to do anything she doesn't approve of.


I'd also tell her it wouldn't be good enough unless she agreed to watch!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

The characterization of your problems as a bj deficient is really missing the point. Reading your other posts, this is a respect problem. 

You can leave her to get a bj but I think that D should be a last resort and should be based on your wife not acting in a careless fashion towards you. For you, the logistics of D would be challenging. 

You will need to take your 9 and 15 yr old relatives with you. They are not your wife's responsibility. You will have to contribute to child support for 4 kids. Thank goodness she works. 

Then you have to date and find women willing to do what you want sexually. Of course you will have to fulfill their needs too. All doable. 

Make sure that you exhaust all avenues to marital happiness before striking out on your own. You are glossing over the respect thing and I think that is a big mistake.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
Not only is it a respect problem, it is a self respect problem and that means it will likely reappear in hs next relationship. 





Catherine602 said:


> The characterization of your problems as a bj deficient is really missing the point. Reading your other posts, this is a respect problem.
> 
> You can leave her to get a bj but I think that D should be a last resort and should be based on your wife not acting in a careless fashion towards you. For you, the logistics of D would be challenging.
> 
> ...


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I do plan to sit her down and try to get her to be honest with me. I just hope she will be honest.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

McMuffin said:


> I do plan to sit her down and try to get her to be honest with me. I just hope she will be honest.


Mc she may shut you down if you don't think about what you want to accomplish and therefore say. Have you anticipated what she will say? 

Why will this time be any different than the rest? 

My suggestion is to talk about the relationship implications of what she said and not sex at first. 

If you want different results you have to have a different attitude. Take time to work on yourself and then talk to her. Plan carefully what you need to say.


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## minimouse (Sep 14, 2013)

I can't imagine feeling more comfortable with someone else giving my H a BJ than doing it myself. Bizarre.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Why would it be different this time? At the time, it was a sexual discussion, and I will only use this as an example (among others) to try and get her to see that she doesn't care to do anything just to make me happy, and that is the main problem, not that I'm not getting a BJ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> Why would it be different this time? At the time, it was a sexual discussion, and I will only use this as an example (among others) to try and get her to see that she doesn't care to do anything just to make me happy, and that is the main problem, not that I'm not getting a BJ.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a pretty simple problem.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Who defines these obligations? Married people deserve a sex life but who gets to decide what that should mean?


Well, some obligations are just generally obvious. Not having any sexual contact for years at a time is obviously a failure to meet the necessary requirements for marriage to be a sexual relationship, which everyone will agree it must be.



> From the tone of a lot of posts on TAM many men seem to think that they are to get as much sex of any type that they want, or their needs are not being met.


What I find is that, when the words of a post are reasonable, people will project an unreasonable meaning on the post and accredit it to the tone. If I've missed any posts from men arguing that women must provide all the sex, in all the ways, their husbands desire, or else, please link to the posts.



> I know a lot of men don't want to hear this but men do not get to dictate their sex life just because they got married. Sex lives, like everything else in a marriage, have to be negotiated between both parties.


Just as you believe that men shouldn't get to dictate their sex lives, I believe that women shouldn't get to dictate a lack of a sex life. But it's amazing how many women will disagree with me.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> *Then you have to date and find women willing to do what you want sexually*.


NEVER a problem when your dating...its only AFTER marriage that this stops


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Well, some obligations are just generally obvious. Not having any sexual contact for years at a time is obviously a failure to meet the necessary requirements for marriage to be a sexual relationship, which everyone will agree it must be.
> 
> 
> What I find is that, when the words of a post are reasonable, people will project an unreasonable meaning on the post and accredit it to the tone. If I've missed any posts from men arguing that women must provide all the sex, in all the ways, their husbands desire, or else, please link to the posts.
> ...


How does negotiating a sex life translate to women dictating a lack of sex life?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MC,
Talking about sex when you have a respect problem, worsens the problem. And you can't really fix it by talking about 'respect' either. 

A respect problem is fixed by:
- earning respect and where needed
- demanding respect

I have a post about this somewhere but the short version goes like this. How does she treat you in comparison to the way:
- She expects or demands you to treat her
- She treats her friends and family
- The way other people treat you

- Are her wants/needs usually more important than yours?
- Are her time, money and feelings consistently more important than yours? 
- Does she act proud of you, neutral or embarrassed by you in social settings? 

It is easy to gauge some of this: What does she do when you point out that she has hurt you/done something inconsiderate or mean to you? 

Does she deny, blame shift or dismiss it?
Or
Apologize, try to make amends and work harder to prevent a reoccurrence?







McMuffin said:


> I do plan to sit her down and try to get her to be honest with me. I just hope she will be honest.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Blame shifting, and she treats her friends and family better… and yes her wants/needs are more important than mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MC,
You let someone treat you badly outside the bedroom, that bad behavior is guaranfvckingteed to creep into the bedroom. 

So you can either start with this:
You don't treat me as well as I treat you. Or as well as your friends and family. That isn't acceptable. 

Or you start by calling her on her bad behavior as it happens. And you don't let her blame shift. 

Simple, short declarative statements when she does: This isn't about my behavior, it's about yours. 

And then end the discussion. 

She will fight hard to keep the status quo. 

This will take a while to fix. 



QUOTE=McMuffin;4588737]Blame shifting, and she treats her friends and family better… and yes her wants/needs are more important than mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> Sorry, I'm not understanding this--do you have an example?:scratchhead:


Sure. Your post stated that sex, for women, is a unique marital obligation. Although, we can say that about every marital obligation. No two marital obligations are the same. So, it seems that your point was to portray sex as the one marital obligation that is actually just a voluntary activity that women should be excused for refusing their husbands.

I disagree with your premise. I think that, if sex can be viewed as voluntary because it is unique, then so can every other marital obligation. A husband can easily argue that working long hours at an unpleasant, and perhaps even dangerous, job is a unique obligation. As such, he might want to refuse to do his duty and continue to earn an income for the family. However, few people would sympathize with his position, let alone excuse it.



> If a couple agrees that there is a sexual obligation, then it goes for both spouses. It's not just the woman taking on the obligation to have a sexual relationship for life--the man agrees to the same terms.


Sure. But this is a thread about a woman who wants to stop fulfilling her sexual obligations. As such, I think we can compare that to a man who wants to stop fulfilling his obligations, whatever they may be.



> And it's definitely not the woman agreeing to have a sexual relationship in exchange for non-sexual obligations from the husband. At least not in this century. If men still think they can trade being a good provider for sex in marriage, they are going to experience FAIL at some point.


Would you view all marital obligations as mutual? If the husband works to provide an income for the family, does that mean the wife is also obligated to have a full-time job? If the wife cooks dinner, must the husband also cook? Must yard work be shared? Or can each spouse agree to provide certain benefits for the other in a mutually beneficial arrangement?



> Yeah, but when you get down to brass tacks, things like "abandonment" and even "abuse" are fairly subjective. Hell, we have guys on here saying that lack of BJ's equates to abandonment of needs.


When speaking in terms of divorce, abandonment and abuse have been defined by statute fairly clearly. Lack of BJs wouldn't rise to constructive abandonment. It's just not being nice to one's husband.



> It comes down to the quality of life you are willing to accept. One man's "justifiable" is another's "frivolous."


I disagree. I think most reasonable people can agree on frivolous reasons for divorce.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> How does negotiating a sex life translate to women dictating a lack of sex life?


This thread has been about the OP's wife dictating a miserable sex life to her husband. Some people say it's bad behavior. Some people justify it by assuming that, if women aren't free to withhold sex, that must make them sex slaves, rather than functional adults in a healthy marriage.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pht,
I don't think the term 'dictating' is constructive because it implies that 'he' has no say in the matter. He can do plenty of stuff:
- Cut off acts of service
- Spend his leisure time without regards to her preferences
- Cut way back on financial generosity
- Request she agree 'in writing' to an open marriage
- Begin the process of separation or divorce

You are very right that she is attempting to negotiate a total cessation to their sex life by saying: 
- anal is out
- oral is out
- I dislike giving handjobs - I will do them, but it will be under protest






PHTlump said:


> This thread has been about the OP's wife dictating a miserable sex life to her husband. Some people say it's bad behavior. Some people justify it by assuming that, if women aren't free to withhold sex, that must make them sex slaves, rather than functional adults in a healthy marriage.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Sure. Your post stated that sex, for women, is a unique marital obligation. Although, we can say that about every marital obligation. No two marital obligations are the same. So, it seems that your point was to portray sex as the one marital obligation that is actually just a voluntary activity that women should be excused for refusing their
> husbands.
> 
> I disagree with your premise. I think that, if sex can be viewed as voluntary because it is unique, then so can every other marital obligation. A husband can easily argue that working long hours at an unpleasant, and perhaps even dangerous, job is a unique obligation. As such, he might want to refuse to do his duty and continue to earn an income for the family. However, few people would sympathize with his position, let alone excuse it.
> Sure. But this is a thread about a woman who wants to stop fulfilling her sexual obligations. As such, I think we can compare that to a man who wants to stop fulfilling his obligations, whatever they may be.


Again, you seem bent on making my attitude slanted toward one gender. I realize that, in this thread, we are talking about the OP's wife, but let me be clear: intimacy (or sex) is a martial obligation unlike any other for BOTH MEN AND WOMEN. 

It is unlike many other so-called obligations because intimacy is not something that is at our beck and call once it has been damaged. I get up many a morning not wanting to fulfill quite a few of my work and parenting duties, but I can still do them, and my husband is grateful that I've done them, same as I'm glad he does his work and parenting duties even when he'd rather not. Sometimes going through the motions is good enough.

Not so with intimacy--how many posters on TAM have said they do not want their spouse "going through the motions" or offering up "duty sex?" How many have said "no thanks, if that's the way it's going to be, I'll do without." But most people are okay with their spouses not necessarily loving going to work every day, or juggling babies and managing the house. Work: it's what we do in life--whether or not we're married. Death and taxes, baby, death and taxes. 

Intimacy is different. It just is. Just because a spouse is fulfilling other duties doesn't automatically mean that the other spouse is going say, "Hot dang, my panties are wet--he mowed the yard even though he worked right through the weekend at the office!" or "Damn! She worked late four days this week AND took care of a sick kid who was up all night! Imma get me a piece of THAT!" 

You don't stand up to your LD wife by saying, "Hey, I go to work every day, so you owe me a fulfilling sex life." You do it by saying, "Intimacy is a give and take in marriage. I need to feel it, and so do you. I'm not feeling it from you and I want you to figure out why so we can fix it."

If you can't understand and respect intimacy for it's unique (and yes, fragile) emotional and psychological qualities, then you will not succeed in effectively addressing its dearth. 




PHTlump said:


> Would you view all marital obligations as mutual? If the husband works to provide an income for the family, does that mean the wife is also obligated to have a full-time job? If the wife cooks dinner, must the husband also cook? Must yard work be shared? Or can each spouse agree to provide certain benefits for the other in a mutually beneficial arrangement?


Now you're catching on. Yes, I think obligations should all be mutual (although an exhaustive and generally approved list of marital obligations, as far as I know, doesn't exist.) Just like with sex, the arrangement has to be talked about, agreed upon, and maintained to reflect an ongoing benefit for both spouses. You cite work, for example. Working for pay is one way to contribute to the household, working at home to manage the house and family is another. One isn't, by definition, a more important or higher order of contribution. Each comes with its drawbacks and advantages. 



PHTlump said:


> When speaking in terms of divorce, abandonment and abuse have been defined by statute fairly clearly. Lack of BJs wouldn't rise to constructive abandonment. It's just not being nice to one's husband.


Lack of BJ's, in this case, seems to be a misnomer for lack of intimacy. Not getting your favorite sexual act is one thing, not feeling loved, wanted, or respected is another. 



PHTlump said:


> I disagree. I think most reasonable people can agree on frivolous reasons for divorce.


I think there are extremes everyone can agree on . . . and then there is the mess in between. Witness the many, many back and forth discussions on these forums. If I've learned on thing since joining, it's that nobody knows what the "rules" are. The only thing everyone seems to agree on is that if you're miserable, you always have a choice.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> Blame shifting, and she treats her friends and family better… and yes her wants/needs are more important than mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, it's probably hard not to notice the difference in prioritization these friends and family are given, when you are a huge crutch and positive influence...

But sometimes, they view themself as the center of the world and their "life", and you are just an add in. So you can't gain a vantage point over people who were already there before you.

A strong passion or being the boyfriend or husband does not give you the advantage, and the key priority either...

And I know you see some of her friends and family she treats better, but they don't have her at as high of a priority, and dont' respect her to the same level, and it makes you feel less important than them by quite a bit.

That they don't have kid gloves, or respect, or intelligent valuation, or respect her time or priorities as much - and they still get treated better and she looks to them... Does she almost look up to some of them? Their "power" looks better or something? What does she see were you can treat her better and be looked down upon for setting in that position?

Maybe you dont' have to treat her with kid gloves as much and allow some bumping and frictions to occur, and ensure she respects you as well, some knocking and bumping and she will see you different?

Sometimes it starts out like this and takes time for it to adjust to you having a higher priority. Like the others said, you can't cry about it or appear starved for it either.

Just stick to good principles and ensure you are treated well.

Many of us have been in the same position.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I will take your advice MEM, as well as refer back to the MMSLP, guess it's time to follow the MAP and the 180 again…
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

missthelove2013 said:


> NEVER a problem when your dating...its only AFTER marriage that this stops


Never? Why do you think it is as easy as picking a woman off of a shelf. They might exercise the right of refusal, married or not. In fact, they are as likely to want the kind of sex that will satisfy them as much as their partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MC,
I know this is hard. The best behavior modification tactics are very short on words and long on body language and tone of voice. 



UOTE=PHTlump;4591561]This thread has been about the OP's wife dictating a miserable sex life to her husband. Some people say it's bad behavior. Some people justify it by assuming that, if women aren't free to withhold sex, that must make them sex slaves, rather than functional adults in a healthy marriage.[/QUOTE]



McMuffin said:


> I will take your advice MEM, as well as refer back to the MMSLP, guess it's time to follow the MAP and the 180 again…
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> Again, you seem bent on making my attitude slanted toward one gender. I realize that, in this thread, we are talking about the OP's wife, but let me be clear: intimacy (or sex) is a martial obligation unlike any other for BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.


Yes, by excusing the wife's withholding of sex, and your comments about the injustice of having penises inserted into your body, I was assuming that your views on sexual obligations were biased towards women. However, if you are arguing that either sex should be free to withhold sex from their spouses, then I still disagree. And for the same reasons I've previously given.

I still fail to see why sex is the only unique obligation that can be seen as voluntary. Working is unique. Cooking is unique. Yard work is unique. Simply stating that sex is unique offers no support for the view that one spouse should be free to withhold sex from the other.



> Not so with intimacy--how many posters on TAM have said they do not want their spouse "going through the motions" or offering up "duty sex?" How many have said "no thanks, if that's the way it's going to be, I'll do without." But most people are okay with their spouses not necessarily loving going to work every day, or juggling babies and managing the house. Work: it's what we do in life--whether or not we're married. Death and taxes, baby, death and taxes.


You are confusing fulfilling your duties when you're not thrilled about it with passive aggressive tactics designed to shame one's spouse. Most of the people who reject duty sex would happily accept a loving gift of sexual intimacy from one spouse to another.

Let's try a thought experiment. Wife A initiates sex with her husband, tells him that she's not that into it tonight, so it is going to be all about him, gives him a climax, and then cuddles with him lovingly. Wife B rejects her husband's advances as often as she dares and, when she finally relents, tries to communicate in as many ways as possible that she absolutely hates the act of sex with her husband.

Both wives have performed duty sex. But Wife A did so lovingly, as an adult in a healthy marriage. Wife B did so as a child pitching a hissy fit. All men would happily accept Wife A's actions during times when sex isn't possible for her, or when she's just not really into it. Women who act as Wife B will accomplish their goals of making their husbands dread having sex with their wives.

Now, let's try the same thought experiment with men going to work. Husband A cheerfully kisses his wife in the morning and heads out to work at a job he hates, but one that pays well. Occasionally, he will vent some frustration to his wife over his frustrations at his job. But, he will never try to make his wife feel guilty for his obligations to provide for her. Husband B takes the opposite approach. He constantly threatens to quit his job, which will leave his family in dire financial straits. He b!tches and moans about his job and tries to make his wife feel guilty for forcing her husband to work through such hardships.

I think we can all agree that Husband A is the more responsible spouse. Husband B is needlessly inflicting pain, worry, and guilt on his spouse.



> You don't stand up to your LD wife by saying, "Hey, I go to work every day, so you owe me a fulfilling sex life." You do it by saying, "Intimacy is a give and take in marriage. I need to feel it, and so do you. I'm not feeling it from you and I want you to figure out why so we can fix it."


That is one way. There are others. But the strategy for how to best coax a wife into fulfilling her sexual obligations in a marriage is a separate question from whether a wife has sexual obligations in a marriage. She does.



> Now you're catching on. Yes, I think obligations should all be mutual (although an exhaustive and generally approved list of marital obligations, as far as I know, doesn't exist.)


I think that view of marriage is foolish. Specialization of labor exists for a reason. It is stupid to have a couple where Spouse A has earning potential of $500k per year, Spouse B has earning potential of $25k per year, but because earning income is a mutual obligation, they must each work full-time jobs so that the family earns $525k. If a husband can cut the grass in one hour while it takes the wife three hours, why insist that they must take turns doing it?

Also, you are correct that there is no exhaustive and approved list of marital obligations. But you don't need one to acknowledge that sex is a marital obligation. Sex is universally acknowledged as a marital obligation.


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## Seppuku (Sep 22, 2010)

May be late to the thread, but my first thought:


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## thrall (Sep 26, 2013)

It's a trap!


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

You know, I kind of thought that too, like it may have been a trap. Nevertheless, I have resumed full monitoring and was back on the MAP and implemented the 180 yesterday. She did ask me what was wrong and if I was mad at her, and I just shrugged it off. When she came to bed, I was already asleep, and she actually kissed me which woke me up.... that hasnt happened in a looooong time, I couldnt help but do that evil smile...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Yes, by excusing the wife's withholding of sex, and your comments about the injustice of having penises inserted into your body, I was assuming that your views on sexual obligations were biased towards women. However, if you are arguing that either sex should be free to withhold sex from their spouses, then I still disagree. And for the same reasons I've previously given.


I think if you read carefully my responses to this thread, it's clear that I view the obligation as going both ways. If you are bent on seeing a gender war, you will see one. 

Never has my argument been that either spouse is free to with hold sex/intimacy . . . (although, in reality, they are.) I have said, time and again, on this thread and others, that, in marriages where lack of sexual desire is causing marital discord, that success depends on getting to the root of the low desire. In some cases the LD spouse could do this on their own, if he or she was so motivated. Sometimes the HD spouse can motivate the LD spouse to make this change, and sometimes not. 



PHTlump said:


> I still fail to see why sex is the only unique obligation that can be seen as voluntary. Working is unique. Cooking is unique. Yard work is unique. Simply stating that sex is unique offers no support for the view that one spouse should be free to withhold sex from the other.


Again, failing to understand how intimacy is a unique obligation due to its emotional and psychological complexity seems to be at the bottom of many of these sorts of threads. You can cry to the moon about how it's just like mowing the lawn or doing the dishes or going to work or changing the baby's diaper, but it is not. Treating it like it's just another thing your spouse should do because he/she married you is to not give it its due respect. Consequences abound.




PHTlump said:


> You are confusing fulfilling your duties when you're not thrilled about it with passive aggressive tactics designed to shame one's spouse. Most of the people who reject duty sex would happily accept a loving gift of sexual intimacy from one spouse to another.


Loving gifts of sexual intimacy are not the issue here. _Patterns_ of not offering or responding to intimacy is the issue. Again, the difference has been discussed repeatedly on threads on TAM.



PHTlump said:


> Let's try a thought experiment. Wife A initiates sex with her husband, tells him that she's not that into it tonight, so it is going to be all about him, gives him a climax, and then cuddles with him lovingly. Wife B rejects her husband's advances as often as she dares and, when she finally relents, tries to communicate in as many ways as possible that she absolutely hates the act of sex with her husband.
> 
> Both wives have performed duty sex. But Wife A did so lovingly, as an adult in a healthy marriage. Wife B did so as a child pitching a hissy fit. All men would happily accept Wife A's actions during times when sex isn't possible for her, or when she's just not really into it. Women who act as Wife B will accomplish their goals of making their husbands dread having sex with their wives.


Sigh. Again, we're not talking about wife A. She doesn't have an intimacy problem, and she's not the spouse that is driving folks to post here for help.




PHTlump said:


> That is one way. There are others. But the strategy for how to best coax a wife into fulfilling her sexual obligations in a marriage is a separate question from whether a wife has sexual obligations in a marriage. She does.


Yes, men and women have obligations to work towards a mutually fulfilling sex life. You keep repeating that as though we have some disagreement over that part.




PHTlump said:


> I think that view of marriage is foolish. Specialization of labor exists for a reason. It is stupid to have a couple where Spouse A has earning potential of $500k per year, Spouse B has earning potential of $25k per year, but because earning income is a mutual obligation, they must each work full-time jobs so that the family earns $525k. If a husband can cut the grass in one hour while it takes the wife three hours, why insist that they must take turns doing it?


Here is what I said: *"Working for pay is one way to contribute to the household, working at home to manage the house and family is another. One isn't, by definition, a more important or higher order of contribution. Each comes with its drawbacks and advantages."*

I consider "contribution to household" an obligation *not* to be broken down into each specialized duty. Hash out what works best considering earning power, ability, satisfaction, etc. It's going to be different for every couple. I thought I made that pretty clear. Either you are willfully looking for ways to make my argument foolish, or I've underestimated the caliber of our discussion. 



PHTlump said:


> Also, you are correct that there is no exhaustive and approved list of marital obligations. But you don't need one to acknowledge that sex is a marital obligation. Sex is universally acknowledged as a marital obligation.


Yes, yes, yes and yes again. I know it is. However, hanging on to that detail like a dog to a bone is pretty much all you've been doing. Learning to understand what intimacy is, how it gets broken, and how it can be restored is what couples need--not a mantra for the HD partner to beat his or her chest to. 

Unless, of course, you're happy to defend your little patch of high ground and continue down the path of sexlessness and perhaps right on through to divorce.

Look, PHT, at the end of the day, I think you and I agree that intimacy and sexual fulfillment are mutual obligations in marriage. I think it's a unique obligation, you don't. Fine; we'll have to agree to disagree on that. 

Fact of the matter is, sometimes intimacy and sex gets broken in marriage (pretty common, in fact.) How the parties approach its repair is what is at issue, it seems. There isn't a one size fits all approach, but for it to come back FOR REAL, holding it out as an obligation that the LD partner should just be able to overcome by simply going through the motions of sex is naive. It can take years to fix, and I guarantee you, the LD partner already has a mountain to climb without struggling through the HD spouse's resentment, sense of entitlement, or games of tit for tat.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Yes, by excusing the wife's withholding of sex, and your comments about the injustice of having penises inserted into your body, I was assuming that your views on sexual obligations were biased towards women. However, if you are arguing that either sex should be free to withhold sex from their spouses, then I still disagree. And for the same reasons I've previously given.
> 
> I still fail to see why sex is the only unique obligation that can be seen as voluntary. Working is unique. Cooking is unique. Yard work is unique. Simply stating that sex is unique offers no support for the view that one spouse should be free to withhold sex from the other.
> 
> ...


I don't know how anybody can say that the HD spouse would be satisfied with sex given lovingly when it is all for them. We've had countless threads with HDs in distress because their spouse is not into sex like them. They don't feel the passion, the lust, they feel that it's empty sex. It is not the hostile "hate you with my pu**y" sex talked about by Athol Kay. This is about the LD partner who wants to satisfy the HD with nothing for themself but to show love. Sometimes that is called the dreaded "duty" or "pity" sex as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Sex an obligation? If that is the case than why are there so many complaints about duty sex? Is it a duty to pretend to be enthusiastic even when not inspired to be so? What about love, affection, and caring? 

There is something wrong with the duty approach to sex. Sounds more like a periodic mechanical physical release not an act expressing love that is mutually enjoyable. 

Work and family support does not seem to have anything to do with love and sex based on both people enjoying the experience. If a man did not work, he would not have a roof over his head or his kids heads. He would not eat or experience career success. His work is a requirement for him and for the kids he decides to bring into the world.

If you tease out his spouse for special consideration, how much is she worth? . Let's say he was unwise enough to get married so that he had the easy availability of a mother for his kids, housekeeper, babysitter, cook, social secretary, calendar organizer, medical officer and sex provider. Take all emotions of care, love and mutually enjoyable sex out of the equation. 

I promise you that the great majority of woman don't undervalue their contribution and overvalue their husbands. They also enter into a union expecting an exchange of satisfaction. Their is nothing more labido killing than a person who does not see or appreciate the totality of your contribution. That is the problem with considering men as inherently more valuable than woman. It does not work. 

Besides, most women are employed. Does that mean that they buy out the obligation with their income?. What if they make as much or more than their husband? Is it a complete buy out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

GettingIt said:


> You can cry to the moon about how it's just like mowing the lawn or doing the dishes or going to work or changing the baby's diaper, but it is not. Treating it like it's just another thing your spouse should do because he/she married you is to not give it its due respect. Consequences abound.


We'll just disagree on how special sex is. My logical brain can't appreciate the fallacious reasoning that sex is special because "it just is."

I think consequences abound for any spouse who refuses to fulfill any of his, or her, obligations. A man who refuses to provide for his family probably won't have a family for long. A woman who refuses her sexual obligation will also probably find herself divorced.



> Learning to understand what intimacy is, how it gets broken, and how it can be restored is what couples need--not a mantra for the HD partner to beat his or her chest to.


Not necessarily. The HD spouse can't always figure out what the LD spouse would prefer, and provide that. Sometimes, change is spurred by the HD partner refusing to tolerate the status quo any longer. That kind of action frequently results in the LD spouse suddenly becoming motivated to become more sexually available.

I think that kind of advise would certainly be given if the OP were a woman posting about a husband who refused to work. I think that most of the posters here would simply state that he needed to get off his butt and get busy. I very much doubt that there would be much hand-wringing about figuring out why he didn't want to work.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

techmom said:


> I don't know how anybody can say that the HD spouse would be satisfied with sex given lovingly when it is all for them.


I've said it. Athol Kay has said it. I'm perfectly fine with a HJ in the shower to make me feel good. In fact, I'm better than fine with that. I appreciate the hell out of it.



> We've had countless threads with HDs in distress because their spouse is not into sex like them. They don't feel the passion, the lust, they feel that it's empty sex. It is not the hostile "hate you with my pu**y" sex talked about by Athol Kay. This is about the LD partner who wants to satisfy the HD with nothing for themself but to show love. Sometimes that is called the dreaded "duty" or "pity" sex as well.


I think you've misinterpreted those threads. Most (all?) of those threads that I've seen are LD spouses who engage in the "hate you with her vagina" sex that Athol wrote about. I think the pity sex that people complain about is the "hurry up and finish so I can go do something else" type.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"I've said it. Athol Kay has said it."

Oh well then in THAT case...it must be TRUE!!! Yours are the only two opinions that matter anywhere in the universe!

LOL! :rofl:


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> We'll just disagree on how special sex is. My logical brain can't appreciate the fallacious reasoning that sex is special because "it just is."


Yet your logical brain can accept that "sex is an obligation of marriage that everyone understands, it just is." Hmmmmm. My husband has a logical brain, too. Guess what it got him? Uh-huh. 



PHTlump said:


> I think consequences abound for any spouse who refuses to fulfill any of his, or her, obligations. A man who refuses to provide for his family probably won't have a family for long. A woman who refuses her sexual obligation will also probably find herself divorced.


Agree, and have said as much.




PHTlump said:


> Not necessarily. The HD spouse can't always figure out what the LD spouse would prefer, and provide that. Sometimes, change is spurred by the HD partner refusing to tolerate the status quo any longer. That kind of action frequently results in the LD spouse suddenly becoming motivated to become more sexually available.


I already said that there is no one size fits all cause or fix for LD. It's complex, remember? And I've said on more than one occasion on this forum that spouses shouldn't tolerate a status quo that leaves them feeling deprived of intimacy. There is plenty a HD spouse can and should do. 



PHTlump said:


> I think that kind of advise would certainly be given if the OP were a woman posting about a husband who refused to work. I think that most of the posters here would simply state that he needed to get off his butt and get busy. I very much doubt that there would be much hand-wringing about figuring out why he didn't want to work.


You can describe it as hand wringing; doesn't change the fact that it's the only way to get an LD spouse back on board with joyfully giving and receiving. I've seen few posters here saying, "Really wish she'd just do the job whether or not she feels like it. Ya know? Just put in the time." 

Husbands want to feel sexually desired by their wives. Wives want to feel sexually desired by their husbands. You can accept less, but there is almost always work that a couple can do to improve things. If that's just too much bother, then carry on.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Sex an obligation? If that is the case than why are there so many complaints about duty sex?


Because duty sex is the label frequently given to passive-aggressive, shaming sex.



> Is it a duty to pretend to be enthusiastic even when not inspired to be so? What about love, affection, and caring?


Yes to all of those.



> There is something wrong with the duty approach to sex. Sounds more like a periodic mechanical physical release not an act expressing love that is mutually enjoyable.


Not at all. Would a mother feel justified in slamming down plates of food in front of her children, sighing loudly, and proclaiming that she absolutely hates cooking dinner and she hopes her children will stop bothering her about meeting their nutritional needs? Of course not. She would act like an adult, be cheerful, and fulfill her obligation to care for her children.



> Work and family support does not seem to have anything to do with love and sex based on both people enjoying the experience. If a man did not work, he would not have a roof over his head or his kids heads. He would not eat or experience career success. His work is a requirement for him and for the kids he decides to bring into the world.


Using the same reasoning, sex is a requirement for marriage. Withholding sex will, or should, result in the dissolution of the marriage.



> I promise you that the great majority of woman don't undervalue their contribution and overvalue their husbands. They also enter into a union expecting an exchange of satisfaction.


I agree.



> Their is nothing more labido killing than a person who does not see or appreciate the totality of your contribution. That is the problem with considering men as inherently more valuable than woman. It does not work.


My economic example was not meant to illustrate the value of an average couple. It was a response to a poster's statement that all obligations should be mutually shared and specialization of labor should not be employed. Although the poster has since disavowed that position.

I don't see men as inherently more valuable than women. I don't think any posts in this thread have put forth that position.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> My economic example was not meant to illustrate the value of an average couple. It was a response to a poster's statement that all obligations should be mutually shared and specialization of labor should not be employed. Although the poster has since disavowed that position.


Um, no, I didn't disavow--I scolded you for willfully misrepresenting what I'd clearly stated in the first place.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> "I've said it. Athol Kay has said it."
> 
> Oh well then in THAT case...it must be TRUE!!! Yours are the only two opinions that matter anywhere in the universe!
> 
> LOL! :rofl:


Fair enough. Let's try my though experiment on you.

Wife A initiates sex with her husband, tells him that she's not that into it tonight, so it is going to be all about him, gives him a climax, and then cuddles with him lovingly. Wife B rejects her husband's advances as often as she dares and, when she finally relents, tries to communicate in as many ways as possible that she absolutely hates the act of sex with her husband.

Both wives have performed duty sex. But Wife A did so lovingly, as an adult in a healthy marriage. Wife B did so as a child pitching a hissy fit. All men would happily accept Wife A's actions during times when sex isn't possible for her, or when she's just not really into it. Women who act as Wife B will accomplish their goals of making their husbands dread having sex with their wives.

Are you saying that most men would reject both wives' offers of sex? I disagree.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

McMuffin said:


> she said it really was the same when she was doing it before, but then said "i guess being a mom changes you into not wanting to do that stuff..." and yes that was a direct quote.


Ha! I got that exact same line from my ex in reference to our pre-parenthood sex life.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I'd bet the farm that she'd start to care if you were to go out and get yourself one of those strange BJ's, and then brought her home a nice hefty case of carryout genital warts!*


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Let's try my though experiment on you."

Feel free to read my blog to find out how I feel about these topics...(which is a way of blowing you off, since I know you care zero about other people's opinions).


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Fair enough. Let's try my though experiment on you.
> 
> Wife A initiates sex with her husband, tells him that she's not that into it tonight, so it is going to be all about him, gives him a climax, and then cuddles with him lovingly. Wife B rejects her husband's advances as often as she dares and, when she finally relents, tries to communicate in as many ways as possible that she absolutely hates the act of sex with her husband.
> 
> ...


My husband has REJECTED lovingly given sex when it was all for him. If I wasn't in the mood, he didn't want to accept it. I guess I would be "couple C" in your example. There are many "couple C's" in this world, maybe you need to look beyond the MMSL and Athol Kay's website to find out what is happening in the real world with these couples instead of repeating the same diatribe over and over. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Fair enough. Let's try my though experiment on you.
> 
> Wife A initiates sex with her husband, tells him that she's not that into it tonight, so it is going to be all about him, gives him a climax, and then cuddles with him lovingly. Wife B rejects her husband's advances as often as she dares and, when she finally relents, tries to communicate in as many ways as possible that she absolutely hates the act of sex with her husband.
> 
> ...


Wife A's behavior, as a regular pattern, would make some men shut down. We've seen threads about it. 

Some men are fine with it. 

Most men AND women would be happy for the occasional selfless favor from an otherwise equally enthusiastic partner. (This is the scenario I'm assuming you were thinking of when you set up your example.) 

Wife B's behavior shows contempt, which is an issue that probably needs to be dealt with separately. If your spouse doesn't even like you, it's going to be hard for them to pretend like they do during sex. See some of the threads on resentment.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Are we still talking about BJ's?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Are we still talking about BJ's?


I know, I know. I've been meaning to apologize for participating in that massive thread jack. I be done!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I dont think there is anything wrong with having sex lovingly with a loving partner when you are not in the mood to begin with. Is that duty sex? I hope not because I do it. 

Very often, desire comes with arousal. Two people cannot always be in accord. Problems come when the person not wanting sex is resentful. They have to realize that it is normal to get a jump start and enjoy their partner. 

However, I think resentment due to relationship problems, needs to be addressed. To assume that relationship problems should not effect desire is as bad as resenting a jump start for no good reason. 

Having sex while humiliating and shaming one's partner is one of cruelest things that a person can do. It kicks a person that you are supposed to care about when they are at their most vulnerable. It's the action of a bully. Dealing with it on that level may be more effective than suffering in silence. Call them on it.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

techmom said:


> My husband has REJECTED lovingly given sex when it was all for him. If I wasn't in the mood, he didn't want to accept it. I guess I would be "couple C" in your example. There are many "couple C's" in this world, maybe you need to look beyond the MMSL and Athol Kay's website to find out what is happening in the real world with these couples instead of repeating the same diatribe over and over.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Count me in as one of those men: I eventually started turning down my ex-wife's offers of duty sex... or rather, duty bjs... sex was more of a hassle for her. I was fine with it at first. Although, at the time, I can't say I understood them to be "loving" offers anymore than saying I mowed the grass lovingly, or did the dishes lovingly. In time, I began to question why she was never in the mood. After going mad in an effort to address what might be the cause... I never found one, by all accounts she was happy, just never thinking of sex. My efforts to spark interest or warm her up were met with duty bjs. It became clear that she didn't have a sexual interest for her benefit... or really, any sexual interest at all.

Its one thing to not be in the mood. Its another thing to never be in the mood. Eventually, I think anyone is going to be put off by a person who doesn't seem to desire them at all. That was my case, and feeling that, I didn't want to touch her anymore and I didn't accept anymore of this chore sex... nor do I find its being qualified as "generous" or "selfless" to be any consolation. I'm not interested in being married to someone who has no desire for me... whether they "selflessly" give me sex or not. That it could even be described as selfless/generous is almost insulting... tantamount to saying the partner that's never in the mood gets no pleasure out of sex with you - that its not something worth desiring. It did a real number on my confidence. If everything was good, as she claimed, I was left to wonder if I was just bad in bed. What a horrible thing to make your spouse feel! The resentment of getting nowhere with my efforts, self-questioning, feeling alone - like the family was two separated entities - her and the kids one entity and myself the other, was a nasty c*cktail. 

I've read MMSL, and didn't find this to be particularly counter to what was said. Duty sex is a necessity I think, but if its ALWAYS duty sex, and you are never desired... the relationship is one-sided and I think the clock is ticking on its expiration.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Count me in as one of those men: I eventually started turning down my ex-wife's offers of duty sex... or rather, duty bjs... sex was more of a hassle for her. I was fine with it at first. Although, at the time, I can't say I understood them to be "loving" offers anymore than saying I mowed the grass lovingly, or did the dishes lovingly. In time, I began to question why she was never in the mood. After going mad in an effort to address what might be the cause... I never found one, by all accounts she was happy, just never thinking of sex. My efforts to spark interest or warm her up were met with duty bjs. It became clear that she didn't have a sexual interest for her benefit... or really, any sexual interest at all.
> 
> Its one thing to not be in the mood. Its another thing to never be in the mood. Eventually, I think anyone is going to be put off by a person who doesn't seem to desire them at all. That was my case, and feeling that, I didn't want to touch her anymore and I didn't accept anymore of this chore sex... nor do I find its being qualified as "generous" or "selfless" to be any consolation. I'm not interested in being married to someone who has no desire for me... whether they "selflessly" give me sex or not. That it could even be described as selfless/generous is almost insulting... tantamount to saying the partner that's never in the mood gets no pleasure out of sex with you - that its not something worth desiring. It did a real number on my confidence. If everything was good, as she claimed, I was left to wonder if I was just bad in bed. What a horrible thing to make your spouse feel! The resentment of getting nowhere with my efforts, self-questioning, feeling alone - like the family was two separated entities - her and the kids one entity and myself the other, was a nasty c*cktail.
> 
> I've read MMSL, and didn't find this to be particularly counter to what was said. Duty sex is a necessity I think, but if its ALWAYS duty sex, and you are never desired... the relationship is one-sided and I think the clock is ticking on its expiration.


Your story and mine are relatively similar. I am going on 14 weeks without it now and she has never once approached the topic in any way. She is never in the mood and I am starting to lose interest. I am not a fan of bj's but if I was, she would be just as indifferent about them. We are having a child in April and I am starting to wonder about moving on before I have a scenario like yours.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Hi guys, am trying to discuss things with my wife, started a new thread in the Relationship forum... need some advice, link to new thread below.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/126369-trying-discuss-issues-wife.html


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## Yokozuna (Oct 3, 2013)

Hello. Just wanted to say it's quite amazing to read so many stories that sound so similar to mine and read responses from people that echo many of the thoughts I'v had myself over the years. It is simultaneously inspirational as it is painful to see that others have experienced similar situations. Hopefully any information I share about my own experiences will help shed some light on someone else path.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Yokozuna said:


> Hello. Just wanted to say it's quite amazing to read so many stories that sound so similar to mine and read responses from people that echo many of the thoughts I'v had myself over the years. It is simultaneously inspirational as it is painful to see that others have experienced similar situations. Hopefully any information I share about my own experiences will help shed some light on someone else path.


Your right. Many of these situations are very similar. I've been on this subject for seven years. When we say you nearly have to break up with them when you've been cheated on and not help them, we mean it. Once they've done you in, they think your weak and so much less interesting than the world. It's like the apple that the serpeant fooled Eve with.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> What do you guys make of this?


I make of this that if you get BJs from other women, then when you find out she is having sex with other men, she figures you can't complain.


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