# Please help me through this!



## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

My husband is on a business trip and is verbally attacking me. He just won't stop. I have 3 kids with this man. i can't just leave him. I don't have any of my own money. I just cannot handle this.

He cheated on me for almost a year with a 21 year old. He's been so mad at me ever since. So bloody mad. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I really don't deserve this. I don't. I can't imagine anybody does.

His anger stems from me being with another woman during our relationship. He encouraged this and made me share every "juicy" little detail. It lasted a month. I noticed he was getting angry and I ended it immediately. None of it was behind his back. He knew about it every step of the way. This was 15 years ago. He's made me "pay" ever since. We've never been able to have sex without talking about other women, watching porn, talking about threesomes. It all became so twisted that I didn't even know how to turn him on or have sex without bringing up other women. I feel like I've done everything in my power to be good to him, but he is so angry. He hates women. His mom is bipolar/NPD. I suspect he is too. I've always thought it. Most of the time he tells me I've been an ideal wife, but that none of it is enough because I never had a threesome with him. That was the only way I could have proved my love for him. 

I'm trying so hard to be here because of the kids. But I can't do this right now. I'm so alone. Nobody knows about this. Actually, he told my parents. He wanted them to apologise to them for raising me like this. My dad has completely disappeared. He never replied. And all it did was make my mom worry and now I have to deal with her worry on top of my own pain. 

Now everything I've ever done is wrong wrong wrong. I don't respect him. I've never been there for him. All women are man-haters. I'm too loud. And I bring women over that disrespect him in his house. This is when I invite my friends over and he gets in arguments with him and they defend their stance. He goes on these tirades of hate. It makes me feel so useless. I should just keep my mouth shut, but I don't. That's my problem. He has already broken so much inside of me. I don't know why I keep fighting back. I can't be responsible for everything in this marriage, but he's decided I am and that is all that matters. 

He thinks I'm making his sons hate him. I'm not. I'm not saying anything to them or even trying to act upset around them. They see his behaviour towards them and us as a family. I just can't ever win. I don't know how to stay. And I don't know how to leave. I am just so sad. So broken. I wish I could die, but I feel like too much of a coward to kill myself. And my poor kids. They need me. And i would just be being selfish. But, I've already been told over and over and over again that I'm selfish. I guess that would just prove his point. And I'm too bull headed to let him believe that he's right about me. See how twisted I am in my thoughts. I want to prove myself right instead.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Use a little reverse psychology on him. Tell him he "maybe" right about women, and "maybe" right you. Tell him you know you "could have" been raised better and you can see why "he" may think they could have done a better job. 
Tell him you may be interested in a threesome because you love him, but you'd have to be with the other man alone at first couple of times to see if it feels right. And that you fully understand and empathize with him that sex with the same person "can be" boring and some variety "may be" good for both of you after "all these years". 
And because you love him so much you "may" be willing for him to take the kids and have six months freedom to see if that's what he wants. In the meantime, it may be better that he not call at all when he's on a business trip because its bad for business when he's upset and you don't want to cause him this hardship. Watch him change his tune.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You are in an abusive relationship. See a lawyer/solicitor.

Think about taking you and your children to a shelter.


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## Homer j (Jan 6, 2016)

I agree with Matt. What happened with you and OW wasn't right, but his A didn't make it any better. Nobody deserves to be abused. If you have texts, messages, etc. Don't delete, show to cops/attorney. Protecting the kids and yourself right now needs to be priority one.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with Matt, you are in an abusive relationship. This cannot be fixed.

Do you have access to any money at all? Or does he control all the money?\

About the reverse phycology thing.. that's called playing games. I can be very dangerous playing games with a man like him.

Has he ever hit you or shoved, twisted arms, choked or any other angry physical attack? Does he do things like throw things in anger, pound on furniture, walls etc in anger?

Please reply back because the answer to the above questions make a difference as to the advice you are given. After you answer, I will post more that I hope will be of help for you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Also... 

His anger at you for having an 'affair' with another woman is crazy. He encouraged the affair and used it for his own voyeuristic pleasure. It was not an affair... it has an agreed upon extension of your marital sex life... I suspect that he got angry because he never got to join it as a 3rd party.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

He's justifying his affair by blaming you for everything. Typical cheater.

It's gonna be all your fault. Cheating is on the cheater - him.

They lie, hide and deny. Start documenting and get a VAR.

Divorce him and get as much alimony and child support as you can.

No future here for you or your children.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Homer j said:


> I agree with Matt. What happened with you and OW wasn't right, but his A didn't make it any better. Nobody deserves to be abused. If you have texts, messages, etc. Don't delete, show to cops/attorney. Protecting the kids and yourself right now needs to be priority one.


He told her to have an affair with the OW so he could watch them and/or get her to tell him what they did together.

Then when his fantasy was fulfilled, he got nasty with her.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

He didn't tell her to have an affair. He told her to have sex with other women. And when they have sex, he wants to use the fantasy of other women in his bed with the OP.

This guy is abusive and crazy. He's the cause of his own problems. Find a way out. Friends, your mom.


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

This is a very abusive relationship. Talk to a therapist or a counselor to understand how bad it is. All these years, you got used to it. Find out your options financially too. 

He won't change. Things won;t get better.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I agree with the others. You are married to an abusive asshat. 

Only you can fix the situation you are in, and that is to end the marriage and move on.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

sobroken said:


> My husband is on a business trip and is verbally attacking me. He just won't stop. I have 3 kids with this man. i can't just leave him. I don't have any of my own money. I just cannot handle this.
> 
> He cheated on me for almost a year with a 21 year old. He's been so mad at me ever since. So bloody mad. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I really don't deserve this. I don't. I can't imagine anybody does.
> 
> ...


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

I'm calmer now. He should be traveling in the next 24 hours to get home so there will be minimal contact for now.

He has never hit me or ever laid a hand on me in a physically violent manner. He does take his anger out by throwing things, but never in my direction. He's broken at least 2 phones that I can think of, a tablet and a laptop by throwing them. I don't fear for myself physically or for the kids physically at all. 

What I neglected to mention was that I live in an Arab country for now. I can't actually leave with my kids. Any movement I make to actually leave the country without his permission gives him a notification on his phone!! Now, that being said, I could try to leave by contacting my parents and letting everyone know that he won't let us leave. But, I have no money of my own. We are doing financially well and I have access to money and I am slowly trying to set money outside, but it will take me a while. In order to leave, i'd have to myself and the kids money (budgeting $5000 for just that) Because he is so unstable, I don't trust that he will provide for me and the kids financially. Sometimes, I think he will if I leave because he would not want us on the streets or the equivalent. But, I think he would expect my parents to support us. We have some property in the US that is in my mom's name. Our credit was bad when we were buying a house. Anyways, the truth is that I am not ready to leave him. I am scared for how it will affect the kids, how it will affect me, what we will do, the shame and embarrassment. We come from a very traditional, Muslim culture. Every time I tell him we are not going to make it, he doesn't believe me. I've been threatening to leave him for months now. He doesn't believe me anymore. It's like I've given him permission to treat me however he likes because I'm not going anywhere. I keep telling myself that one day I will be ready to leave. I don't know. 

I hate this. I'm even trying to be careful about what i write because I fear that I might be writing to gain sympathy and that I will get accused of spinning things my way to make me seem like the victim. He tells me has been a victim because of the way I have treated him the last 15 years. His affair wasn't wrong at all. I deserved it. That's what he tells me. I don't buy it though. But, if I did, it would surely make my life easier? Or maybe not, he'd expect threesomes. I told him I would never have one with him and that I am glad I never did cause he has always treated me very poorly when it came to a relationship between us. He never listened to me or really "loved" me. He has always provided a comfortable life for us. At least after he was done getting an education.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

Oh, and he thinks I have manipulated him for years and led him on with talk of a threesome with never having any intention of following through. For me, it was part fantasy and the other part was that life took on a different turn for me with kids and I focused on that. The talk of threesomes turned more into a fantasy rather than anything else. I never realized it or analyzed it until recently. I think it became clear to me early on that he would never be satisfied with one threesome. He'd want more and more. He's always talked about bringing another woman into the home and us being a loving family. Not something I have ever wanted! I always made it clear to him. He said that he expected to marry the ***** he was with and that's why he got involved with her in the first place. i don't buy it. it's a way to make it ok in his own head. I've never been ok with something like that. i've always said that. Anyways, back to what I was saying. I think i never took the idea of having a threesome from fantasy to reality because I never felt loved, cherished, important in our relationship. He never treated me well when it came to our relationship, outside of my role as mother and "wife" if that makes sense. There was no intimacy or a desire for my needs to be met. He never listened to me talk. My choices in life have never been good enough. I didn't like the things he did and have always felt "stupid" around him. None of this has been overt, but this underlying theme. I was always satisfied with whatever little he gave me because I thought that is all I deserved or that is all he was capable of. I only realised he was capable when I read the 1000s of messages between him and OW. It broke my heart that he was like that with someone and never like that with me. :-(


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

He's not traveling back quite yet. He leaves in about 6 hours! I'm getting my times messed up. Anyways, he's going though anxiety now though and he apologised. I ignored his apology because this is part of our sometimes cycle. Most of the time he doesn't bother apologising and just goes back to acting like everything is fine. But, I couldn't just shut him out while he was going through the anxiety. I would feel like less of a human being if I did that. I'm sure he knows that I can't just shut him out. God, I wish I could. I try. I do try.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I am sorry. You are in a very abusive relationship. Are you and he from the same culture in the middle east? If not, then that creates additional complications. 

If he is muslim he is entitled to have 4 wives therefore based on what you have said, it is highly likely he will be bringing in more women into your marriage as 'wives.' If you do not agree with this, you may have to consider leaving now. Personally I have nothing against muslims perse but their idea of marriage and the rights of the woman are very different from the western (judeo-christian) view of marriage and the rights of the wife. In fact you may try to establish those rights but it will be very difficult. He seems conflicted and this will not get better.

Seek help from an expatriate group of women.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sobroken said:


> He is so angry. He hates women. His mom is bipolar/NPD. I suspect he is too. I've always thought it.


SB, welcome to the TAM forum. Like the other respondents, I agree with @MattMatt that your H is abusive. Perhaps you are correct about him being bipolar. That is NOT what you're describing, however. Rather, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, controlling behavior, instability, temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, low empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). To a lesser extent, you also are describing warning signs for NPD (e.g., strong sense of entitlement and apparent inability to really love anyone).

Importantly, I'm not suggesting your H has full-blown BPD or NPD but, rather, that he may exhibit strong traits of those PDs. I caution that BPD and NPD are considered to be "spectrum" disorders. This means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD and NPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your H exhibits these PD traits. Of course he does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD and NPD spectrums). Not having met him, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong PD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.



> He is so unstable.


The two most common causes of frequent mood changes are hormone imbalances and drug abuse. Yet, because his anger issues/tirades have been going on for at least 15 years, and because you don't mention a persistent drug problem, those two factors seem to be ruled out. 

The two remaining common causes of mood changes are bipolar and BPD. The red flags you mention are more consistent with BPD than bipolar. One reason is that you seem to describe his mood changes as occurring quickly in response to some event, e.g., something minor you said or did. And, if I understand you correctly, his bad moods typically go away several hours later or the next day. In contrast, bipolar mood changes typically take two weeks to develop, then last for two weeks, and then take another several weeks to fade away. They are not triggered by events but, rather, by gradual changes in body chemistry. Moreover, the intense anger issues you describe are characteristic of BPD, not bipolar. 



> He does take his anger out by throwing things.... He's broken at least 2 phones ...a tablet and a laptop.


You are describing a man who has so little control over his emotions that he throws temper tantrums just like a four year old does. This lack of emotional control is the key defining trait for BPD. For this reason, a large share of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for two decades to change its name to "Emotional Regulation Disorder."



> He goes on these tirades of hate.... *His anger stems from me being with another woman during our relationship. *He encouraged this.... This was 15 years ago.


Perhaps your are correct. Yet, if he has strong BPD traits, you are very mistaken about when his anger issues started. With BPDers, the problem typically is fully established in early childhood because their emotional development usually is frozen at the level of a 3- or 4-year-old child. The BPD traits typically start showing themselves very strongly when the person is in the early teens. 

Hence, if your H really does have persistent, strong BPD traits, his anger toward you likely would have started showing itself strongly immediately after the marriage -- with or without the "other woman" event he persuaded you to do. During the courtship period, BPD traits usually never show themselves because the BPDer's infatuation holds his two great fears (abandonment and engulfment from intimacy) at bay. As soon as his infatuation fades, however, those fears return and you will start triggering them no matter what you choose to do.



> Now everything I've ever done is wrong wrong wrong.


If your H has strong BPD traits, he seeks continual "validation" for his false self image of always being "The Victim." He easily accomplishes this by making you "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of every problem and misfortune to befall him. Similarly, if he has strong NPD traits, he is seeks frequent "validation" for his false self image of being the nearly perfect man who is always right. Hence, if you are married to a BPDer or NPDer, he will perceive you as being _"wrong, wrong, wrong,"_ as you say. 



> I've *never* been there for him. *All* women are man-haters.


BPDers and NPDers are notorious for doing "black-white thinking," wherein they will categorize everyone at the polar extremes, refusing to see the gray area in between. That is, they will will categorize everyone as white (i.e., "all good" or "with me") or black (i.e., "all bad" or "against me"). This is done because they are too emotionally immature to handle the experience of dealing with strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other gray areas of interpersonal relationships. 

Like young children, they are able to avoid that complexity by classifying everyone at one polar extreme or the other. And they will recategorize someone -- in just ten seconds based on a minor comment or action -- from one extreme to the other. This childish behavior will be evident in their frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "You NEVER..." or "You ALWAYS..." or "ALL women are...."



> See how *twisted I am in my thoughts*. I want to prove myself right instead.


If you really have been living with an BPDer for over 15 years, "twisted" is exactly how you should be feeling. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths. 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves. To a lesser extent, narcissists also have a "crazy-making" effect on their partners due to their frequent use of manipulation and deliberate efforts to confuse you (called "gaslighting").



> I think it became clear to me early on that he would never be satisfied with one threesome. He'd want more and more.


My advice, given your reluctance to leave him, is that you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your boys are dealing with. Hopefully, you have access to a good psychologist in your country.

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your H's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD and NPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- and better protect your boys. Take care, SB.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

Wow! Uptown, thank you for your detailed reply. It is a bit mind boggling. I'll reply a little right now because the kids are up, but will sit down with your words a while later and try to write more detailed.

His anger issues have always been there. They were there when I met him, but were obviously very controlled. He behaved like this as a child and a teen. He always thought he was very special, intelligent and the world just didn't get him. He's always put people down and said he was better than them. I believed him for a long time, until I realised that he was an incredibly flawed individual. Before me, he blamed his mother for all his problems! Red flag, right? I had a screwed childhood myself (physical and sexual abuse) I think I saw in him a very different person than my father? I don't know. 

Yes, we are from the same cultural background. And the funny thing is that him saying he would just take her on as a wife, I don't think he really thought it through. I think that would have been his fantasy coming to life, but he's always known that it would never happen. Oddly, I know I come across as a pushover (??) or without a voice, but I have not taken this lying down. I just haven't reached my breaking point. When I found out, he dropped her and never looked back. I am as sure as I can be of this. I spent a long time talking to this girl and she is terrified of me! Ha! Considering he was her "first" (They didn't actually have sexual intercourse cause she is a virgin and she wouldn't have been able to get married. I'm sure it would have gotten to that point at some point.) Their affair was emotional for 10 months, physical for 2 of those months. Anyways, she had to have very low self esteem to want somebody else's leftovers. He led her to believe that he would marry her, but when the time came, he told me he loved her and wanted to marry her. When I fell apart, he immediately (that day) broke off all contact with her and that was that. He tried to be there for me the first few weeks, but even then kept saying that I had done him wrong and that he always felt like I was manipulating him, etc. I told him I understood, but I just needed him to be there for me while I was falling apart. This is the first time I've needed him in this marriage. Everything was structured in such a way that I was there for him, that I did everything for the kids, I was responsible for everything in the home and everybody's emotional needs. He failed me in a huge way. And continues to fail me. 

Maybe he does have bpd. I know that bpd and npd are closely related and hard to distinguish between, right? I looked awhile back and ended up thinking that he probably had npd rather than bpd, but i don't remember now what made me decide that. i am not a professional by any means obviously. also, with the bipolar. i do strongly suspect bipolar. he does have periods of depression and mania and these happen for weeks/months at a time. Those are more long term cycles, but I do see some shorter cycles of anger and pity for himself and "love" for me. 

Gosh, he's said some terribly hurtful things to me lately. He's said some other things throughout the marriage, but I have a very bad memory. I actually think my faulty memory has been a defence mechanism to wipe out childhood trauma. Anyways, I tend to be a very happy person because I try not to dwell on the past. But, in this case, I can't do that because he has made it so much more worse than what it already was!! I'm just a mess.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

18 behaviors:
1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction; YES ALWAYS

2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;" YES ALWAYS

3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members; NOT REALLY

4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard; YES ALWAYS

5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells; ALWAYS

6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later; MOST OF THE TIME, MORE NOW THAN BEFORE...BUT HE ALWAYS REMEMBERS THE FIGHT AND THE REASONS WHEN IT IS CONVENIENT FOR HIM OR PROVES SOME POINT HE IS MAKING.

7. Low self esteem; YES

8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours; YES

9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans; DEFINITELY HAS A FEAR OF ABANDONMENT AND BEING ALONE, BUT DOES NOT MAKE UNREALISTIC DEMANDS FOR TIME SPENT TOGETHER OR RESPONDING WITH ANGER WHEN PLANS CHANGE.

10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune; YES ALWAYS

11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending); YES, THIS HAS BECOME A REAL PROBLEM AFTER THE AFFAIR. THE DAMN AFFAIR IS COSTING US A MINI FORTUNE.

12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well; DOES NOT APPLY, I WAS HIS FIRST

13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;" NOT REALLY. WE WERE VERY DIFFERENT. STILL ARE.

14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months; YES, VERY MUCH SO. I THINK THIS IS ALSO HIS DEFINITION OF LOVE. WHEN HE TRIED EXPLAINING WHY HE KNEW HE LOVED ME, THIS IS HOW HE DEFINED IT. IT'S BECAUSE I PROVIDE THESE THINGS FOR HIM. TOO BAD HE DOESN'T DO ANY CENTERING AND GROUNDING FOR ME. 

15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing; YES ALWAYS

16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away); HAS VERY FEW FRIENDS AND THEY ARE LONG DISTANCE. DOESN'T SHARE ANYTHING PERSONAL WITH THEM OR ANYONE ELSE BESIDES ME.

17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; NEVER.

18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she often "rewrites history" because she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence. YES, ALWAYS!

MY RESPONSES ARE ALL IN CAPS.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

Wow, you know what hurts the worst right now. During the time of his affair, when we would have sex, we would talk about having a threesome and he would always say what about an arab woman? and i would finally say sure and he would get harder inside me and it was always the tipping point to make him cum. Little did I know that it was her that he was fantasising about while he was having sex with me. That breaks my heart a little more each time I think about it. I know, TMI. I'm sorry. But, the anonymity of the internet can be a good time to bare your truest feelings and not have to be looked upon by pity by people you know. KWIM?

There are so many other things that hurt. He used to tell her she was pretty all the time. He never told me that in the 15 years we were together. He would tell her 10 times a day. The thing is that I am more attractive than she will ever be. He has said that now, but it doesn't matter now. 

Oh, and very painful, he took my younger two boys to meet her. That kills me. They thought she was just some student of his. After all, she's freaking 21. Our oldest is 13!! WTF!?!? Who does that? Like they were going to be happy to meet their dad's *****, the person that helped ruin their home life?


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

Uptown, 

I read this, which you posted in another thread:

Your predicament is made all the worse by the fact that the two fears are at opposite ends of the same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will necessarily be drawing closer to triggering the other fear. For example, when you had a very intimate evening or great weekend together, you likely found her -- the next morning -- creating an argument out of nothing to push you away. For a BPDer, intimacy is experienced as suffocating and engulfing, making her feel as though she is losing her identity by merging into your strong personality. It is a frightening experience in which she feels she is vanishing into thin air. She therefore will feel that you are somehow "controlling" and dominating her (nevermind that she is the controlling one).

Yet, as you back way to give her breathing room, you will eventually trigger her great fear of abandonment. It may take days or weeks for that to occur but, unless the BPDer has split you black permanently, it likely will occur. At that point, she will return behaving extra caring and sweet to pull you back into the R. This is why one hallmark of a BPDer relationship is cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back.

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So, is there anything I can ever do right if I am living with a BPD spouse? Is there a way to push ourselves towards reconciliation, consider I am not ready to leave right now. I'm trying really hard to make this work for the kids sake and I still have feelings for this man. He was going through anxiety and I just didn't have it in me to ignore him and to tell him that he brought it upon himself and that he needs to deal with it himself, like I have been dealign with the pain that his affair caused me.


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

> He has never hit me or ever laid a hand on me in a physically violent manner. He does take his anger out by throwing things, but never in my direction. He's broken at least 2 phones that I can think of, a tablet and a laptop by throwing them. I don't fear for myself physically or for the kids physically at all.


Abuse is just not physical abuse. 

Is therapy an option for you in the country you live in ?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

SoBroken, if everything you said is true then you will eventually be completly destroyed; then you will be no good to yourself or your children.

You say that you are not ready to leave yet. You better get a plan to leave and have the backbone to follow through. *You are too valuable to your children to allow yourself to be reduced to a door mat.*

Get all the help that you can RIGHT NOW so that you start believing that you are a valuable person. Your husband runs you down and you do to take enough actions to stop the cycle. After you realize how valuable you are you can be strong enough to leave. You have your parents in the USA and that means that you have a source to help you get out of your situation. You may have to lower your living standards but you have to choose between lower living standards and your value as a mother and a person. *Are you willing to sacrifice in order to get a lot better?*

Make a plan to get yourself in better self-esteem shape, follow through, formulate your plan to leave, keep your husband from knowing any details that will help him defeat your plans, THEN LEAVE!

You tell us that your husband does not love you and continues to destroy what little self-respect and worth you have of yourself; so *why have you tolerated this for 15 years?* You do not need your husband to validate you as he is a person that sucks the life out of you and does very little or nothing to build you up.

*You are a valuable woman because you have children that you can enrich and you are a valuable person just because you are you*.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

About therapy, I've been once and will go again this week. It's $200 a pop. Painful!

Did I say that my husband does not love me? I don't believe he does. I don't think he knows the meaning of love, but he claims he loves me!

I know it doesn't seem like it, but I do value myself. I just need to value myself more. But, I do feel like by staying for now, I am valuing my kids more and what they need right now.

Oh, and I do have a plan. I am putting aside money for now and will continue to do so. Just cause I want things to get better doesn't mean that it will. And, when it doesn't and I finally reach my breaking point, I want to be able to leave.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

Also, I've been reading about Borderline Personality Disorder and I'm not sure why I considered he didn't have it! Everything I read screams MY HUSBAND!


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## Scarlet.Begonia (Feb 22, 2016)

My husband also is blaming all of his anger on me for what I did long ago. One thing was with a woman and he was involved and now uses it against me sometimes. 
I'm concerned about you as a fellow woman who is being treated like ****, when you say you should just keep your mouth shut. Don't let any man make u feel like that. Just tell yourself you have worth that no one can take from you. Recognize your own worth whether or not u think anyone else can. 
Do you have any friends to confide in that are just your friends, who wouldn't tell him your private feelings? If not, you have this forum. You're not alone. I haven't posted much but have been reading and can see how supportive everyone is to one another on here. 
I have felt like killing myself in the past just to end the pain and the pain u have is unbearable. It's been four months for me and it doesn't hurt near as much but I'm on depression meds so I haven't felt suicidal as I did years ago before I was in the meds. If you work, see if your employer has an EAP programs for the employees. They likely offer free counseling and crisis intervention. If so take advantage of it. It's confidential and your employer won't find out. 
You don't believe it now I'm sure, but this will hurt less, even though the first few weeks are excruciating as most of us can attest to. 
Please seek immediate crisis help for your any suicidal thought or feelings of worthlessness you may be having. Your kids will need you and they will eventually see who they can count on, even if your spouse fills their heads with ****. Just don't stoop to his level and talk **** about him no matter how low he stoops. 
There's more to say but I can't at this moment. Just know you're not alone sister. ?
Hold your head high and carry yourself with grace and dignity.


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## Scarlet.Begonia (Feb 22, 2016)

I just read through everything and saw that you're Muslim and are overseas. I have to say that I'm pleasantly relieved to see how much support you have here considering the rampant Islamaphobia that's plaguing our world right now. That is proof to me that fear mongering isn't working on everyone, even though a lot of people on this forum probably ingest Fox "News" daily, which gives me hope for our future. 
People of different religions are really just people with jobs and marriages and problems and families


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

sobroken said:


> His anger issues have always been there. They were there when I met him, but were obviously very controlled. He behaved like this as a child and a teen.


SB, as I noted earlier, he has been carrying enormous anger, self loathing, and shame inside since early childhood if he is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits). The result is that you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that TRIGGERS the anger that's already there inside him. This is why, whenever you try to discuss any sensitive topic with him, he is just 10 seconds from exploding into a temper tantrum. 

As to his anger issues being "very controlled" when you met him, that's not really true if he is a BPDer. The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, which means they usually get along fine with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. The reason is that NONE of those people are sufficiently close to pose a threat to his two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. Hence, as long as you were a casual friend, he did not have to "control" his anger -- as you say -- because you simply were not triggering a release of that anger. There was no close relationship that could be abandoned. And there was no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment.

Likewise, during the courtship period, you again posed no threat to his two fears. The reason, as I noted earlier, is that his infatuation convinced him that you were the nearly perfect woman who had come to rescue him from unhappiness. During this courtship period, then, there was no need for him to "control" his anger because you were not triggering a release of it.



> He always thought he was very special, intelligent and the world just didn't get him. He's always put people down and said he was better than them.


As you already know, these are NPD symptoms. Whereas BPDers are convinced they are eternal "Victims," narcissists believe they are "special" and nearly perfect. 



> This is the first time I've needed him in this marriage.... He failed me in a huge way. And continues to fail me.


If exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits, you likely are married to a man having the emotional development of a four year old. He therefore likely loves you in the immature way that a young child is able to love. That type of love falls far short of what is needed to sustain a marriage and be supportive when a spouse is falling apart.



> Maybe he does have bpd. I know that bpd and npd are closely related and hard to distinguish between, right?


Yes, they are closely related but actually very easy to distinguish in a man you've been living with for 15 years. Indeed, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not be able to spot the differences. The reason these symptoms are easy to spot -- once we know which ones are on the list -- is that we all exhibit these traits throughout our lives. They are basic human behaviors and generally are ego defenses that help support our survival. 

Moreover, we all move around to different parts of the BPD and NPD spectra at different points in our lives. During early childhood, for example, we all behave like BPDers and NPDers 24/7. And many of us start behaving that way again for several years when the hormones surge during puberty.

The result is that we all know what these behavioral symptoms look like from both the outside and from the inside. Hence, before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose NPD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.



> I looked awhile back and ended up thinking that he probably had npd rather than bpd.


It would not be surprising that, if he has one of these disorders, he has BOTH of them. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that about 80% of the adults having a PD also have one or two other PDs as well -- together with at least one "clinical disorder" such as depression, anxiety, ADHD, PTSD, or bipolar. For example, 47% of the men having full-blown BPD were found to also exhibit full-blown NPD. See Table 3 at *2008 Study in JCP*.

Perhaps you are correct about his NPD traits being stronger than those of BPD. Based solely on what you've written here, however, I suspect the reverse may be true. I say this because you are describing an unstable man whose behavior is so unregulated that it is childlike. This is especially evident in the temper tantrums. Whereas BPDers are unstable (like bipolar sufferers), NPDers generally are very stable individuals. 

Indeed, it is this stability and ability to control impulses that makes narcissists so good at manipulating their partners. To be successful, manipulation requires careful planning and flawless execution. Granted, BPDers make every effort to "control" their partners. So they do try to be manipulative. Problem is that they are not very good at it because, lacking impulse control and being unstable, they are far to reactive to whatever feeling they are experiencing AT THIS VERY MOMENT.

Further, I'm still unconvinced that your H is incapable of loving you or his two boys. I mention this because, if he has strong NPD traits that exceed his BPD traits, he would be incapable of loving anyone. Instead, they would be perceived simply as objects. Hence, when you say _"I do see some shorter cycles of anger and pity for himself and 'love' for me,"_ I suspect you are actually seeing some real love (albeit very immature love) even though you often doubt it. 

If that's hard to believe, remember that -- when a BPDer is splitting you black -- his conscious mind is completely out of touch with his love for you. Those feelings are there in his mind but, until he flips back to splitting you white, he will not be consciously aware of them. Moreover, if you really had been living with a narcissist for 15 years, I don't think you would be making the statement, _"I still have feelings for this man." _

In contrast, such a statement is perfectly believable if your H's traits are predominantly BPD. Because BPDers often exhibit a childlike passion and purity of expression, it is very easy to fall in love with them -- and usually is very difficult to stop having feelings for them. When walking away, the partners often feel like they are abandoning a sick young child.



> I do strongly suspect bipolar. He does have periods of depression and mania and these happen for weeks/months at a time. Those are more long term cycles, but I do see some shorter cycles of anger and pity for himself and "love" for me.


As with narcissism, bipolar disorder very often _co-occurs with BPD_. In the 2008 study I just mentioned, the results show that 31% of male BPDers also suffer from bipolar-1 (and another 7% of them suffer from bipolar-2). If you are interested, SB, you may want to take a look at my description of* 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences*, which is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW).



> Before me, he blamed his mother for all his problems! Red flag, right? I had a screwed childhood myself (physical and sexual abuse)


BPD and NPD are "believed" to be strongly associated with childhood abuse or abandonment. About 70% of BPDers, for example, report that they had been abused or abandoned in childhood. Keep in mind, however, that most abused children DO NOT develop BPD or NPD when they grow up. It is unclear why that is. Nobody has demonstrated, to a certainty, WHAT it is that causes BPD or other PDs. 



> 3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members; *NOT REALLY*


This response of yours surprises me. Very interesting. Given that you are convinced he has a great fear of abandonment (item #9 in that list), it is interesting that it has never shown itself in the form of irrational jealousy and attempts to isolate you away from friends and family.



> 5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells; *ALWAYS*


This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused partners) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells.
_


> Is there a way to push ourselves towards reconciliation, considering I am not ready to leave right now?


The answer largely depends on how strong his BPD and NPD traits are. If most of his BPD traits are very strong, it is extremely unlikely he has the self awareness and ego strength required to stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference. And if his NPD traits are very strong, there likely is no chance of an improvement at all.



> So, is there anything I can ever do right if I am living with a BPD spouse?


If he has strong BPD traits, you will nearly always find yourself in a lose/lose situation, where you are triggering one fear by drawing close and triggering the other fear when drawing away. There nonetheless are validation techniques you can use to reduce the conflict between the two of you. If your H has only _moderate_ traits of BPD, those techniques may prove quite helpful. If his BPD traits are _strong_, however, I doubt you would see any substantial improvement because he won't believe whatever it is you are saying. 

Some of these techniques are discussed in popular BPD books such as _Stop Walking on Eggshells,_ which I mentioned above_._ You may also want to look at two online resources. One is a psychiatric nurse's blog providing 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at *BPD on the Behavioral Unit - Psychiatric Nursing*. If you think you have it bad, keep in mind that many of these nurses have to deal with BPDers all day long.

The other resource is BPDfamily's list of tools for reducing the conflict with a BPDer family member. Those tools are described at *Decision Making Guidelines*. IME, my exW's BPD traits were so strong that none of these techniques made a real difference. SB, I am hopeful that this is not the case with you and your H.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> Please help me through this!


SB, in addition to the resources I cited above, I have some other suggestions that may prove to be very helpful:

*As an initial matter,* if you decide that your H is exhibiting strong BPD and/or NPD traits, I recommend that you NOT try to persuade him of that. If he is a BPDer or NPDer, he almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the one having strong traits of a personality disorder. Instead, simply encourage him to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell him.

*Second, *I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at *BPDfamily* -- the most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the *"Staying"* and *"Leaving"* boards -- and the *"Parenting after the Split"* board.

*Third,* while you are at BPDfamily, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their *resources section*. My favorites are article #9 "Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering from BPD" and article #10 "Leaving a Partner with BPD."

*Fourth,* I again suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and the boys are dealing with -- and how likely it is he may pass a disorder on to one of the children. By seeing a psych who has never seen or treated your H, you are assured that he will be ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not those of your H (at least, I _hope_ it works that way in your country too).

*Finally*, please don't forget us here at the TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers. Your thread has already attracted nearly 1,000 views in just one day.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

sobroken said:


> About therapy, I've been once and will go again this week. It's $200 a pop. Painful!
> 
> Did I say that my husband does not love me? I don't believe he does. I don't think he knows the meaning of love, but he claims he loves me!
> 
> ...


Your WH sounds like a Narcissist, read this:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...409/10-signs-youre-in-relationship-narcissist

So sorry you are in this place but the other posters are absolutely right, you cannot change him so you have to change your circumstances and get away from him before he destroys you.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Sorry you are here my Lady. 

You said you are at this moment in some Arab Country. Where do you live ? Maybe I can help you because my Father is a Muslim. He knows a lot about Divorces and stuff like that. Was married to a Christian girl by the way (my mom).

You are in really bad Marriage and I dont know if I can call it a Marriage. Your Husband is abusing you. I am really sorry. Nobody deserves this.

Do you have any brothers or sisters so they can help you or give you some money? Your mom have some property in United States,can you go there for a little while?

Stay strong and take care of yourself and your children.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

Thanks for the offer of help.

I am not ready for divorce. :-( I wish I was, but I have three kids and I don't know how to do this to them and change their lives so much. 

I am saving money and I would be able to get out if I really wanted to, I think. I could talk to my family, but I am just not ready. That is at the core of the problem. 

I've given him an ultimatum to see a therapist. If he doesn't go within the month, then my plan is to leave.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sobroken said:


> Thanks for the offer of help.
> 
> I am not ready for divorce. :-( I wish I was, but I have three kids and I don't know how to do this to them and change their lives so much.
> 
> ...


It is your husband not you who is damaging the lives of your children.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

sobroken said:


> Thanks for the offer of help.
> 
> I am not ready for divorce. :-( I wish I was, but I have three kids and I don't know how to do this to them and change their lives so much.
> 
> ...


WAIT WHAT!!!!!

You gave him an ultimatum?

Re read this post....you start out telling us you can't D your old man then finish with you will leave his @ss?

How in the phuck do you think your old man will believe you when a bunch of stranger on the internet don't even believe you.

You aren't going any were!
Sorry girl but until you face the fact that you can and will leave, you are just talking shyt.

You need a confidence about your self that will show your old man that you are not phucking around.

You are doubting your self and your old man will see it.

Change your thinking to " I'm leaving and if you get counselling then we can talk"

This whole business of get counseling or else is bull crap!


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

*Sorry SoBroken. Wrote a post but now editing it with this because I missed page 2 of your thread.*
My ex is a full-blown NPD. Yours sounds more BPD but they're closely related.
Main thing is there's NO CURE because the nature of the disorder is they will never admit they're wrong, least of all they are imperfect in some way. 

So, as far as I can see from what you've written here, you're stuck with this for the rest of your life, as you have always been from what you describe. 

It is impossible for anyone & I mean anyone to have a relationship with them. Simply because they lack empathy. Don't feel bad about him telling the 21-year old how pretty she was - that's just cheater stuff used to keep the AP interested. 

I sense you're at breaking point. Do, as someone suggested, see a psychologist. NPDs & BPDs are what is called 'crazy-making' and there is now talk about adding a new disorder to the American DSMV list of disorders for those who have undergone NPD/BPD abuse for a period of time. Check on the net, particularly YouTube, lots there on victims of NPD abuse but the effects are the same. A guy on YouTube suggests, "Observe, don't absorb." as a way of dealing with it if you can't break away from them. Mental professionals are only beginning to catch up with it so don't expect the psych to know about it. But they can still help you. 

I think you must get out. Keep putting money away. I think, deep down, you know that. It's really unhealthy for your sons to see this & there is the danger that they will grow up to see it as the norm & end up treating their wives in the same way in the future - a well-known effect of kids seeing abuse as they grow up.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

Ugh. I know. This is how wishy washy I have become. i want to be brave enough to leave and then I think that I can't do it on my own and I think of the shame and how hard it will be for the kids. I feel stuck. I also did some research about the place I am living and I will actually not be able to leave legally with the kids without his permission. So, this is now an added issue if I actually am going to leave if he doesn't go to therapy. I'd have to go on vacation with him (which is something we do once or twice a year) but it will be dramatic for the kids if it comes down to it. 

I've had a full day of him abusing me today. Fun! :-( In response, I've thrown all sorts of crap that I believe to be true about him. So not healthy. He's on the verge of a mental breakdown. I've always picked up his pieces when that has happened. I just need to be away for myself.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

He keeps telling me that if I leave him, my kids will hate me for breaking up the family unit. That they won't love me because I won't be able to provide for them the way he does. But, I am afraid that if I don't leave, they will think this sort of behavior is acceptable.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Can you stay living where you are living & leave him? Taking the kids without his permission means you could end up in jail, or legal wrangle or whatever & that would be even more disruptive for them. 

Is it that the shame for him associated with your leaving him makes you feel you have to move to another country? I presume you mean you are looking at going to another country & hence, need his permission. 

PS Try to NOT REACT AT ALL to his crap. It often has an amazing effect because fuel is not being added to the fire. Say nothing to him, nothing at all, only what you have to as in, 'dinner is ready', blah blah.

PPS Also if you do go, you must go in a way that is of no risk to your safety or that there is no possible way you could be put in jail.


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## sobroken (Mar 26, 2016)

Trying to leave with the kids without his permission would be illegal so he could detain me. I'm not sure if it would mean jail time, but it would mean that I couldn't legally take my kids. I'm trying to convince him to give me a break from him and buy us tickets. I don't trust that he will, although he has said he would. Who knows?

I try to engage as little as possible, but it is hard. I'm just so freaking angry! I want to spit fire and tell him every darn thing he's ever done to me, but he has no empathy and really just doesn't give a damn past himself.

The shame for me is my whole extended family and all my friends knowing that I failed at marriage. I have one aunt who is divorced and the whole damn family talks about her! I've always hated that, not knowing that I might one day walk in her shoes. :-( How sad is that?

Also, if I go, it will be from a vacation spot. He wants us to go visit the US this summer with him. I may just never come back and go stay with friends for a while and then my parents before figuring out what to do.

Oh, and I saw a therapist 3 weeks ago. I just need to go again and find the time to go. Really, I need to prioritise going. What a hot mess I am. Not even doing things for my own benefit!


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