# So Many Questions



## zkraken (Apr 2, 2014)

D day has been a little over a month. The story is crazy long so not sure how many will want to read it.

If you want to skip to the questions, I have titled a section at the bottom that can be scrolled to. I figure the questions are universal to anyone regardless of the story.


Chapter 1.

I met my wife after she had moved 3 hours away from her previous residence. She had an infant son when I met her. I fell in love with her and he son so quickly. When she moved, she was moving away from an abusive boyfriend. Also, she was having an affair with her married boss at the time. Our relationship was very new and we were just dating without sex. About two months into our new relationship, she told me she had slept with her old boss. She wanted to make sure of her feelings for me by sleeping with him. As it turned out, she was over the married guy and wanted to continue the relationship with me.

I should have seen the signs then, but I was already madly in love with her and her son. I also did the rationalization thing where I was able to move on thinking we were not married, we had never established exclusivity. It hurt but I moved on.

Chapter 2 - The early married years.

We married about 18 months later. She started a new job waiting tables in a bar. The money was incredible compared to what most professional people were making that came in and bragged about their salaries. I was working in the tech industry and she was still making more than I was.

We would see each other for just enough time to had the kids off in the evening since she was working nights. The start of the problems cam when she would not come home until 5-5:30 every morning. She would stay up at the bar drinking beer with her co-workers. I completely trusted her at this point in our marriage but we fought a lot about her refusing to come home after her shift was over. When the staff wanted to get out of there, they could be done by 2:30 every night. Her excuse was " I have to do it so I can unwind and you are just home sleeping any ways". I don't know about the rest of you married people, but there is a big difference between getting good sleep with your spouse/partner beside you and not beside you.

This behaviour continued for a majority of her tenure at the bar.

Chapter 3. - The last pregnancy

We had another child in 1996, to make 2 boys. She got pregnant with our 3rd child and we were both actually sad about it. Not sure if we felt we were not going to last or what it was. But sadly, we were not happy about the pregnancy. She did not drink or take any prescription medication while she was pregnant, however, she would still stay up at the bar until forever. Still a major issue for us.

Here is where I become the biggest douche bag ever. I end up having an affair with a co-worker. Strictly physical. I can't even come up with an excuse why it happened. I try to rationalize it by thinking maybe I was coming up on my 30th birthday and this 19 year old girl was paying me tons of inappropriate behavior. I didn't initiate, but I did follow through. I also try to rationalize that I was incredibly lonely and even though I begged for my wife to come home directly after her shift, she still refused and claimed that was her time. I am just sleeping any ways, right?

She is 5-6 months pregnant, and I have an affair. What a total d**k. 

The wife finds out about the affair and I am terrified about her health and the babies health. My wife is a wreck but she is also strong at the same time. We have the baby and everything and everyone seems fine. I can tell she is very upset about the affair but we barely talk about it. I had one contact with the other girl and it was over. She was transferred out of the office that week, and I never saw or spoke to her again.

I walk on egg shells forever and try to be supportive and nurturing and comforting. And in my mind, I was way overboard on all of the above. I never stopped loving my wife, I just missed her terribly.

I know that sounds ridiculous, how can a man claim he loves his wife and do that to her.

Chapter 4. Her Turn

Later that year after she gave birth, I got a funny feeling that something wasn't right. That feeling in your gut when you know something is going on. Turns out I was right. I confronted her and asked who she was seeing. Not IF she was seeing someone but WHO. She got a sad look on her face and told me she was seeing one of the regulars up at the bar. Needless to say I was crushed. She told me some of the details but I was too sick in my stomach to listen. We got into an argument about it and she told me she was sorry she hurt me. But I can't remember much more of the conversation. I was devastated. She continued to see him and talk to him after I confronted her about it. More soul crushing occurred.

I installed a device on our phone line to try to catch some of the conversations and I started to work from home to catch the phone calls. I caught one of them and threatened him that if he ever called back, I would rip his nuts off. I believe he still called back and that they continued to talk. Technology had not advanced enough in 2000 to be useful.

She went to see him a couple of times when I was on vacation and working our rental property and she "had" to go to the bar and help with renovations.

She also let me know she was going "out" and though I begged her not to go, she went anyway. While I stood on the lawn watching her drive away whimpering like a little b*tch.

Chapter 5 - Confronting the OM
I went to the bar where my wife was working and the guy was there. I was a little hammered at the time and nearly made a scene with my wife at the bar in front of everyone. There was another bar down the street and the OM left and went to that one. I sat there for a few minutes and stewed and then went for a walk. A walk to the bar down the street. One of his buddies came up behind me and asked if I was looking for trouble. I said yes I was. So he went in to the other bar to get him for me. My sister-in-law was there as well.

I was going to kill him, literally, not figuratively. I was going to goad him into a fight and then claim self-defence when I killed him. He came out, got him to throw the first punch and it was on. He hit me pretty good, enough to burst a blood vessel in my eye. I then grappled him into a head lock and started to squeeze. An acquaintance of my wife was tapping on me to tell me that it was enough and in a moment of drunken clarity, I let him go.

After the fight was done, I started to walk back up the street to where the other bar was. My sister-in-law was crying and asking if I was ok, and shouted to her to leave me alone and told her "you f**ked him too". Non nonsensical I know, but my sister-in-law was talking to me the whole time my wife was doing her thing. Giving me "advice" on what to do to win back my wife. She was actually sabotaging our marriage and I didn't realize until too late. I think she actually talked my wife into having the revenge affair.

I arrive back at my wife's bar, she came outside and asked me what happened? I threw my wedding ring at her and told her it was over. Got into the van that I came in with someone else and was driven home. 

When I got home I was getting into the shower and my wife showed up. She begged and pleaded and swore on our children's lives that she didn't' sleep with him. Said she called him and told him she never wanted to see him again and that if he ever came back up to the bar, she would have him taken out back and beaten.

I stay with her. It was only an EA and she loved me enough to not go through to a PA.


Chapter 5 - 14 years since
I still feel horrible about what I did to my wife. Contemplated suicide several times. Could not ever do it. My children need me. My wife is pretty good about not throwing up my PA when we argue but she still does and I feel terrible about it and myself all the time. She reminds me that I had a PA while she was pregnant. 

More self loathing : What a d*ck I am. 

I still cater to my wife and continue to be in the role of the wayward spouse. Deferring to all of her wishes because I did that to her.



Chapter 6 - D Day

We are laying in bed watching TV and I point out "Hey, there is our hotel". A hotel in the background of a news story is where we first had a night together. She flips and thinks it is the one where I took the OW. I stayed at a hotel where I took the OW that my wife and I had stayed at before. And for the record, I would never make light of my affair to her.

I ask her, "So you never slept with him?", and boom!!
Yes I did. World goes into a tail-spin, instantly sick to my stomach. I have to leave the house. It is a terrible snow storm and it didn't matter. Had to get out of there. Went to a buddies house and we talked for about an hour. Eventually I go back home that night.

I began asking questions and she can't answer a bunch of things because it was so long ago and her memory is terrible. I can attest to her memory being bad. It has been like that for years.

She said the reason she did it was to get me back. She was in such a rage at the time, she didn't know what to do. She said she did not want to end up like her parents whose mother has resented her father for the past 30 years because of his affair. The only way to get rid of the resentment was to have her own affair. I asked why she lied to me back then and she said she was afraid I would leave. She is 100% correct, I was showering and then packing after the fight.

I will say that our marriage/relationship is exactly how I wished it would be for the last 5 years. 


Chapter 7 - Since D Day

My mind has been whirring non-stop. Horrible mind movies!! Am I going to be able to get over this? I know it will take time, I've been reading tons of posts here and they are helpful to know that I am not alone and that my emotions are normal. Will she be patient enough with me to give me the time to get over this? She is hot-headed and quick-tempered. She has told me since D Day that I am going to ruin this(our marriage) several times. She means because I keep obsessing about things. She has also said that she is afraid she is going to harden her feelings because she does not think I will get past this.

On one of our talks, she told me she was GLAD she did it. As soon as she did, all of her resentment towards me faded.

Yesterday, I was having an iffy day. I started to pull all the old t-shirts from the bar where she used to work, and put them in the give-away pile. Don't want any of those triggers lying around. I had a weird feeling that the OM was in a picture that she received when she left her bar. Guy was hanging on her back and by "coincidence" his name was the same as the OM. Same short spiky hair-do. Same color hair. She swears it is not him. I texted a picture of that plaque to her at work in a panic yesterday. "Is this him?". No, absolutely not, may God strike me dead that is just a group of regulars. 

She also received a big get-well book from all of her regulars when she was sick. One entry in particular is bothersome to me. "Longing and anticipating seeing your flowing hair blow in the wind as you roam around taking care of us". She also adamantly denies that this was from him. I also texted this to her at work. She called me after the last picture and proclaimed "That was a d*ck move to send that to me during work. If you want to look at stuff, by all means, we can when I get home. Get out of my sh*t!!". There were more words in there but my mind is very foggy.

When she got home, she said "Now I am leaving, and started to pack a bag." I will not stay in the house if she is not there and I told her that. I said if anyone is leaving it is me, and I started to pack a bag to seriously leave. She kind of laughed and said "dueling suitcases, awesome!" There were many more words in there but my mind is too foggy. I did tell her to "shut the f*ck up" and told her "f*ck you" but I did not call her names. I don't like name-calling. She tried to compare me to an abusive ex-boyfriend after I said that, which makes no sense to me. Her words, "Great, treat me like one of my Ex's, you want to come over here and slap me?". I have never put a hand on my wife. Once I had my bag nearly packed she said "Please don't go" and I was so frustrated and pissed I couldn't stand it. I nearly broke one of the four posts on the four post bed when I launched my bag.

I am not a violent person by any means. I am extremely passive. I have only ever been in 3 fights in my entire life and that is counting grade school. But I have boiled over a few times to where I am irrational and can't remember some things. That's where I was yesterday.

There are so many conversations since D-Day that I cannot remember all of them.

Finally, something is bothering me in the back of my mind. I have this undeniable feeling that she is not telling me something. She tells me it only went on for about 4-6 weeks, but when I look up dates of when things happened it is looking more like 4-6 months. She swears on everything I can think of that she has told me everything she can remember. She said she packed it away and does not ever want to look back at it again. Unfortunately, I can look up dates of certain things that happened around then and that makes none of her timelines line up.

One time-line in particular is that she went with one of her friends to see him when his dog died. I remember this because that is same time day that my aunt died. The time line is wrong because this is almost 1 1/2 months after she said the affair was over.


Questions:

Why is this bothering me so bad 14 years later?
How long does the roller-coaster of emotions last?
Does my wife really not remember, or is she lying by omission?
Being 14 years ago, is my mind forcing connections between un-related events?
Is my wife only remorseful that I am hurting now, but not remorseful about her affair?
How long do the panic attacks last?
Is it dangerous to have extended panic attacks? -- it feels like my heart is trying to claw it's way out of my chest
How long does it take before I stop picturing the two of them together while having sex with my wife?
I KNOW, in my heart of hearts, my wife is not doing anything now but why am I still compelled to check up on her.
What to do if wife does not have the patience to let/help me get over this?


Sorry for the post being so long. I just thought full disclosure was in order so that any kind soul that had an inkling of advice for me was coming through it with open eyes.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Ask your wife whether these questions bothered her too when you were having your A. Her input would be valuable for both of you. You both need IC.


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## zkraken (Apr 2, 2014)

she did and still does not want to know anything

she is "all good" now that she got me back, her words.


I have most of the acronyms down but what is "IC"


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Individual counseling. A good counselor would help you rationalize your thought process and help you reconcile with your feelings. She needs it too. She might definitely be having a lot of repressed emotions.


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## zkraken (Apr 2, 2014)

thanks for the reply

I agree with her having repressed emotions. She said she just compartmentalized and put it away. She just does not want to ever think about it again.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

zkraken said:


> thanks for the reply
> 
> I agree with her having repressed emotions. She said she *just compartmentalized and put it away.* She just does not want to ever think about it again.


Bad idea. Betrayal is like ignoring a brain tumor. Lack of treatment isn't the best idea.


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

You had cheated first so you don't have aright to get upset with her for doing the same. She just decided to even the score and you have to suck it up even if it doesn't feel good.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

adriana said:


> You had cheated first so you don't have aright to get upset with her for doing the same. She just decided to even the score and you have to suck it up even if it doesn't feel good.


Huh....He doesn't have to suck it up. Yes he cheated and she stuck it out. But she had a revenge affair. 2 wrongs don't make a right. I cheated on my wife and she took me back. If she cheats on me, well I'm out the door. It's douchey but the world isn't fair.

If he doesn't want to stay, leave. If he's willing to work it out, good on him but they both need help.

BTW, OP was plan B to the married boss from the beginning. Married guy (old boss) dumped her like cold sack once she slept with him and she professed her love to him (OP) after that. Well, that's just my opinion...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Curious that even though you f!cked another woman while your wife was pregnant it seems that you hold a little different standard for her. You presumably wanted her you stay after yours but would have left after hers. Nice. You say you feel bad and maybe you do but you still hold her to higher standards than you hold yourself. Maybe addressing that is the way to deal with your righteous anger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

CH said:


> Huh....He doesn't have to suck it up. Yes he cheated and she stuck it out. But she had a revenge affair. 2 wrongs don't make a right. I cheated on my wife and she took me back. If she cheats on me, well I'm out the door. It's douchey but the world isn't fair.
> 
> If he doesn't want to stay, leave. If he's willing to work it out, good on him but they both need help.
> 
> BTW, OP was plan B to the married boss from the beginning. Married guy (old boss) dumped her like cold sack once she slept with him and she professed her love to him (OP) after that. Well, that's just my opinion...


That's the way the world is when you're married to a d0uche.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jack.c (Sep 7, 2013)

adriana said:


> You had cheated first so you don't have aright to get upset with her for doing the same. She just decided to even the score and you have to suck it up even if it doesn't feel good.



Thats right. But she was a little bit nastyier cuase she keep shoving his A. for many years saying that hers was'nt phisical.....

Never the less they both need some ic serius


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

CH said:


> Huh....He doesn't have to suck it up. Yes he cheated and she stuck it out. But she had a revenge affair. 2 wrongs don't make a right. *I cheated on my wife and she took me back. If she cheats on me, well I'm out the door.* It's douchey but the world isn't fair.


It's your birthright to have As, not your wife's, right? You just proved again what I keep posting - forgiveness is weakness.


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## zkraken (Apr 2, 2014)

Adriana, I understand your point. I do not hold my wife to a higher standard what so ever.

Words are just words and there is no way for me to express the remorse I feel.


I also get to live with the fact that she would not have had an affair if I did not first while we were married. So i am the cause of my own pain. Remember she had an affair before we were married.


She did not disclose to me the truth about her affair and give me time to process. I had to deal with what I thought was an EA from back then and still got to feel like a douche all of these years. And would beat me down with "you had an affair while I was pregnant".

I never felt like my wife loved me for the first 10 years of our marriage. We had children and we knew we wanted to stick it out. When she said she did not take it to the physical level, it gave me hope that she had respect and love for me.

So the last 10 years of our marriage has been based on a lie.

If I didn't mention it, she proudly/defiantly let me know she was going to see her OM on more than one occassion. Purposely to cause me pain. 


With all that being said, I don't care as much about the actual act as I do about the way she treated me around the time of her affair and since then.


Sorry if I struck a nerve!!


I am trying to put on my big boy pants and deal with it, but do you not think I am entitled to the details??


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

What a horrible life.

I feel bad for you. This sounds beyond repair.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

I worked as a bartender through a good chunk of my twenties and into my early thirties. My experience of it tells me she started cheating at least at the same time she started coming home at 5:30 am.

You need to DNA test the children you had with her to make sure that they are actually yours.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

But by your logic you showed her you didn't love or respect her either.
She says she doesn't think about it but I promise you she does. Pregnancy is the most vulnerable time of our lives, and when our guy goes out and f$cks someone else it destroys our idea of him as a protector that has our back. That's what I think you don't get; a 19 year old wh0re wrecked your wife's view of you as the guy that had her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

*I am not a violent person by any means. I am extremely passive.*

I am coming from a clinical point of view, after reading your entire post, what would say if I called you a liar?

I have done it in my counseling practise and I want to call you out here. It is not typical to basically track down a man and then continue to goad him into a fight. This is out of control anger. 


You are going to have to deal with this in a more mature manner. Sending her pics at work, questioning her while she is at work, (IMO) is not cool. I get you are upset, but learn to address this in a better way.

You both cheated. And you both seem immature. You get upset and you are both packing up suitcases. WTH? Niether one of you are dealing with this in a rational manner.

I am not giving you nor her a pass. But if you both continue to act like baffoons I see you getting no where soon.


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## zkraken (Apr 2, 2014)

Thorburn, I agree that neither one of us is being rational.

I completely feel like a crazy person all on my own. I know I am not thinking clearly. I also know that I am acting incredibly childish/immature.

Tracking down that guy and goading him into a fight is the first and only physical altercation I have ever been in since third grade. I didn't say that I don't get angry. 

Not that it is an excuse, but my judgement was impaired by alcolhol at that point.


Me sending her crap at work was another total d*ck move of mine.

I found that stuff and needed some immediate reassurance. My heart has been pounding so hard in my chest that it worries me. It is physically painful.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

No offense, but both of you are lying to each other and yourselves. Your wife is a cheater and so are you. You just got caught first. 

I take that back. You are using the, "but we didn't make a commitment" excuse. She slept with someone else, she was already a cheater with a married man, to see how She felt about you? Ridiculous. Sad story and ironic as well.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

It is ironic and sad. The fact is that she doesn't value marriage (and neither do you for that matter). She was cheating with a married man, so whether you were committed or not, she was destroying other's marriages before that (which is nothing but disdain for marriage in general).


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> It is ironic and sad. The fact is that she doesn't value marriage (and neither do you for that matter). She was cheating with a married man, so whether you were committed or not, she was destroying other's marriages before that (which is nothing but disdain for marriage in general).


Plus what was she doing after hours every night.:scratchhead:
DNA kits are cheap now I suggest for the kids future health concerns you do this jmo.


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## tainted (Aug 16, 2013)

Did you know she was having an affair with a married man before you two starting dating?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

tainted said:


> Did you know she was having an affair with a married man before you two starting dating?


SHouldn't matter as he knew she had one prior to them marrying, which shows how much she holds marriage in high regard.


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## zkraken (Apr 2, 2014)

I did not know she was seeing a married guy before we started dating. She told me after the fact when she came clean about seeing him one last time.


The kids are mine. There is no doubt on my part about that.


The entire closing staff would hang around and shoot the breeze after hours. No doubt in my mind that there was only one OM while we were married.

I was due my comeuppance. I did a horrible thing. Something I can never undo. I am still bitterly ashamed for not being a man, and giving my wife an ultimatum of come home or sign divorce papers. 

I truly do want to reconcile. Our relationship has been the best it has ever been over the last 5 years. I was looking for techniques to keep away all of the negative stuff. 

I would like to get back to the place we were before she told me about the PA. I was already over the EA for the most part. Little things would trigger, but never very bad.

She is not a bad person. A little vindictive and spiteful maybe.


BTW, you guys are vicious.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

BTW, you guys are vicious.:scratchhead::scratchhead:
Okay?


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

You won't be able to get back to that place before she told you about the affair. Ain't no way.

But it is what you do from this day forward that will determine whether R can be an option.

Take a chill pill. Seriously, if you needs some short term meds to calm you down then see a doctor.

Find better ways to fight. Fighting in a marriage is not a bad thing, it is how you fight that can be negative or positive. 

If you are angry admit it and try to figure out what is causing your anger and work on that. Anger is not your first emotion by the way. The first emotion can be hurt, disrespect, etc. Figure out what the first emotion is and what is triggering your anger and work on resolving that.

When you want to spew your anger, count to ten, take a walk, leave the room, put the cell phone down, stop raging at your wife.

If you want the marriage to work then imagine what a good marriage is and attempt to get there. Both of you will need to work on your hurts and pain and admit to your part in all of this.

Both of you need to look at better ways in dealing with the other person.



Panic attacks are horrible but they are not fatal. You might think you are dying but you are not. They are typically based upon false feelings, though they seem very real. Once started they are difficult to turn off and often times you have to ride them out. Meds can help but so can psychotherapy. Deep breathing exercises can also help to refocus the panic attack.

You might want to be checked out for anxiety disorder, thyroid, low vitamin D and obsessive disorder. Some times these disorders are short lived due to what you found out but do get checked out.

The goal is for you both to become better people and working on this together will help you reach that goal.

D is an option but it does not take away all the pain.

My advice is if you can try to work on you and see where it leads.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

zkraken said:


> I did not know she was seeing a married guy before we started dating. She told me after the fact when she came clean about seeing him one last time.


You knew and excused her actions. 
When she was staying out all hours of the night, you knew and excused her actions.
Then you cheated instead of divorcing her. The fact you are worried about legalities and such explains why you didn't snoop back in the 90s. 


> The entire closing staff would hang around and shoot the breeze after hours. No doubt in my mind that there was only one OM while we were married.


LOL, how may threads do you want? Nope, your story isn't that unique at all. The only difference is the betrayed spouse normally comes here before they cheat. You cheated and you are going to get blasted by the "you deserve everything you got you cheater" task force.

You guys need a divorce or counseling, that's about it.


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

CH said:


> Huh....He doesn't have to suck it up. Yes he cheated and she stuck it out. But she had a revenge affair. 2 wrongs don't make a right. I cheated on my wife and she took me back. If she cheats on me, well I'm out the door. It's douchey but the world isn't fair.



Kind of sad that your wife didn't have enough self-respect to divorce you but it's her life and she can waste it anyway she wants. And, unless you actually walked the talk, you don't really know what you'd do if she indeed cheated on you. 

But, you're right that the OP can get divorced. Fortunately, we live in the western world.


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## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

Lol sorry your here but I just skipped your wall of text to skim and saw that you cheated too. That's kinda like a dagger in the back. It's too difficult for most to survive one affair. I'd say go file and put it behind you and of course keep your wanker in your pants next time. You both will never fully trust each other again.


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

zkraken said:


> Adriana, I understand your point. I do not hold my wife to a higher standard what so ever.
> 
> Words are just words and there is no way for me to express the remorse I feel.
> 
> ...



You are technically right but what you fail to understand is that once infidelity happens there aren't any rules anymore. Having a revenge affair isn't something I'd personally do but I can't really blame your wife for what she has done. It's so sweet of you to cheat on her when she was pregnant that she decided to return the favor. You're just obsessing about technicalities of it.

But, I agree that you're entitled to know the details if she wants to reconcile with you.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

So, she saw that hotel, thought it was the one you cheated in, got p!ssed and admitted that she had sex with the OM.

She has a temper. She goes off every once in a while. You smooth this over and make it another # years and she get's p!ssed about your affair and tells you something else you didn't know. He was bigger, he was better, we fvcked like rabbits and it was a hundred times.

See where I'm going with this. She lashed out and told you a truth that she knew would hurt you immensely. What are you going to do if it happens again?

I'm guessing that there is more that you don't know. You should start thinking about how bad you feel after her last revelation. How you're going to feel if there’s a next...


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

zkraken, in your OP you state:

"_*The start of the problems cam when she would not come home until 5-5:30 every morning. She would stay up at the bar drinking beer with her co-workers."*_

Later, when the suggestion is made that she _*could*_ be lying about just having a few beer at the bar with her co-workers until 5:30 and that you should check the paternity of your children because of that, you come back with:



zkraken said:


> _*The kids are mine. There is no doubt on my part about that.
> 
> The entire closing staff would hang around and shoot the breeze after hours. No doubt in my mind that there was only one OM while we were married.*_QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

adriana said:


> You are technically right but what you fail to understand is that once infidelity happens there aren't any rules anymore. Having a revenge affair isn't something I'd personally do but I can't really blame your wife for what she has done. It's so sweet of you to cheat on her when she was pregnant that she decided to return the favor. You're just obsessing about technicalities of it.


Would you be saying the same thing to the op and apologizing for degrading him, if we find out that she in fact cheated first??

What if she cheated on him before they were married, does that not count as it is still infidelity, or does the record get reset when they marry?

Just playing Devil's advocate and wondering if the same "all rules are off" ideal would apply, even though we still know he cheated when she was pregnant (which he admits and I agree was a total douche move)??


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Would you be saying the same thing to the op and apologizing for degrading him, if we find out that she in fact cheated first??
> 
> What if she cheated on him before they were married, does that not count as it is still infidelity, or does the record get reset when they marry?
> 
> Just playing Devil's advocate and wondering if the same "all rules are off" ideal would apply, even though we still know he cheated when she was pregnant (which he admits and I agree was a total douche move)??



Squeakr, once infidelity happens all rules are off regardless who cheated first. I have been cheated on twice when I was single and instantly pulled a plug on both relationships. For me infidelity means the end of relationship and it isn't negotiable. Now, if the OP decided to marry her, being aware she had cheated on him at the beginning of their relationship, then I'd imagine that he accepted it and, in such situation, the record does get reset. Am I wrong here?

EDIT: And cheating on a pregnant wife is a particularly disgusting act.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

adriana said:


> Squeakr, once infidelity happens all rules are off regardless who cheated first. I have been cheated on twice when I was single and instantly pulled a plug on both relationships. For me infidelity means the end of relationship and it isn't negotiable. Now, if the OP decided to marry her, being aware she had cheated on him at the beginning of their relationship, then I'd imagine that he accepted it and, in such situation, the record does get reset. Am I wrong here?


Not sure that I agree with this logic. Would the reset principle not apply in this situation then as well? He cheated and she decided to continue on with the marriage/ relationship. Doesn't her acceptance of his cheating and continuance to remain married not also signify an acceptance and therefor resetting of the record as well (heck lots of states views are that if you continue to have sex with your adulterous spouse after their infidelity is discovered it is considered an acceptance and forgiveness of the infidelity, and clears all possibilities of D for adultery reasons)?? It just seems that his acceptance and carrying on with the relationship resets everything, but her doing the same doesn't carry the same end result?? So it seems that she in this case gets an unlimited time frame to revenge and it becomes justified yet his was reset the second he decided to marry. Does this not seem like a double standard?? Would it matter if her A was 20 years later, would it still be justified in your eyes and considered a revenge A? What is the time frame that it ceases to be revenge and the record is reset?

Edit: as I stated before it is a despicable act to cheat on your pregnant wife, but how is it anymore of a disgusting act than any other cheating in general? Unless the man comes home and attempts sex with the pregnant wife after his cheating act, I would think that cuckolding the man would be considered much more disgusting of an act (and several women do this without a thought, in fact some plan and enjoy it purposely).


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

adriana said:


> EDIT: And cheating on a pregnant wife is a particularly disgusting act.


 It's up there, but it is lower on my list than bringing the juices home, especially without cleaning up, to your significant other.

What about if he finds out about the 5:30 am garbage, while hanging out at the bar pregnant, she was cheating?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Haven't read the entire thread just yet but I feel the need to ask...

What's the timeline w/ respect to when your kids were conceived/born vs. when she was out at the bar at all hours of the night? If any of the kiddos arrived at any point during/within 9-10 months of this, you might want to look into ordering some DNA tests.

EDIT: Looks like someone (at least a couple of you, actually) beat me to the punch...


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"You won't be able to get back to that place before she told you about the affair. Ain't no way."

This is an absolute truth so many BS's do not want to admit or face.

Your old M is dead OP.

They only way forward is to build a new M based on honesty and truth.

No rugsweeping either of your A's...I think she is not wanting the details of yours so she can continue to gaslight you about the full extent of hers.

And her A while you were dating is not something to be ignored either.

She started off your relationship on a huge note of betrayal.

It in no way excuses your choices, but she was the one who first brought cheating into your relationship.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Ok, started reading..

first para



> . About two months into our new relationship, she told me she had slept with her old boss. She wanted to make sure of her feelings for me by sleeping with him. As it turned out, she was over the married guy and wanted to continue the relationship with me.



I want to bash my head into something hard and strong... 

Too bad I am reading something that already happened.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

adriana said:


> You had cheated first so you don't have aright to get upset with her for doing the same. She just decided to even the score and you have to suck it up even if it doesn't feel good.


By your logic

She cheated ->he cheated -> she cheated -> Put him down for several affairs for cheating on her while never confessing hers ..

So he still has one cheat pass left and can use his knowledge of her physical affair to put her down for several more affairs.

Which is why most on here advise against revenge affairs. They never work.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

adriana said:


> You are technically right but what you fail to understand is that once infidelity happens there aren't any rules anymore. Having a revenge affair isn't something I'd personally do but I can't really blame your wife for what she has done. It's so sweet of you to cheat on her when she was pregnant that she decided to return the favor. You're just obsessing about technicalities of it.
> 
> But, I agree that you're entitled to know the details if she wants to reconcile with you.


You seem to conveniently forget the first incident ? now this is making me sound like I'm justifying OP's affair. Point is, she does not get a pass for revenge affair when she too cheated on him. No one gets a pass for an affair. Even if the spouse cheated on you. Now, it is different if the spouse separates and sleeps with other people. 

This is not tit for tat.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

adriana said:


> Squeakr, once infidelity happens all rules are off regardless who cheated first. I have been cheated on twice when I was single and instantly pulled a plug on both relationships. For me infidelity means the end of relationship and it isn't negotiable. Now, if the OP decided to marry her, being aware she had cheated on him at the beginning of their relationship, then I'd imagine that he accepted it and, in such situation, the record does get reset. Am I wrong here?
> 
> EDIT: And cheating on a pregnant wife is a particularly disgusting act.


We are into technicalities. The wife also chose not to divorce after finding out about his affair. Was that a reset too ? Why not ?


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## confusedFather (Jul 15, 2012)

There's no way she had not cheated while they were married before he did. Married women don't stay out to 5:30am while hubby is home asleep without something going on. So really his affair was the first revenge affair. He probably believed she had cheated in his subconscious and justified his affair that way. 

You're both cheaters and kind of deserve each other. If you stay together at least you both won't be destroying another family you create with someone else. You need to suck it up as best you can for the sake of the kids. Be good parents to them and try to model a good relationship for them. If you try hard enough maybe some of it will even become true.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

first let me tell you that maybe what I am about to say may sound as if I am 100% on your side and your wife is the devil itself, which is not the case, what you did is very destructive and while I am not as sure as other users that your affair was the trigger for your wife's affair I will say that an affair definitely destroys the relationship foundations. 

okey that said, the biggest difference between your affair and your wife's affair is the trickle truth, which is one of the most destructive behaviors that a person make after and affair is found, unlike you whose affairs details were disclosed since the beginning your wife keep lying about what really happened. It has been said by many users that ended their marriage in divorce after an affair that what they really could not stand were the lies and constant finding of new information about the affair, every new finding is a new DD that open the scar as fresh as the original DD, is to face again the pain, the disappointment, the lies, and every lie the BS find is a proof that the WS can not be trusted because unlike his/her pleads, the evidence shows that he/she will keep lying to save him/herself and keep hiding his/her selfish behavior 



zkraken said:


> Questions:
> 
> Why is this bothering me so bad 14 years later?
> 
> ...


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Not sure that I agree with this logic. Would the reset principle not apply in this situation then as well? He cheated and she decided to continue on with the marriage/ relationship. Doesn't her acceptance of his cheating and continuance to remain married not also signify an acceptance and therefor resetting of the record as well (heck lots of states views are that if you continue to have sex with your adulterous spouse after their infidelity is discovered it is considered an acceptance and forgiveness of the infidelity, and clears all possibilities of D for adultery reasons)?? It just seems that his acceptance and carrying on with the relationship resets everything, but her doing the same doesn't carry the same end result?? So it seems that she in this case gets an unlimited time frame to revenge and it becomes justified yet his was reset the second he decided to marry. Does this not seem like a double standard?? Would it matter if her A was 20 years later, would it still be justified in your eyes and considered a revenge A? What is the time frame that it ceases to be revenge and the record is reset?
> 
> Edit: as I stated before it is a despicable act to cheat on your pregnant wife, but how is it anymore of a disgusting act than any other cheating in general? Unless the man comes home and attempts sex with the pregnant wife after his cheating act, I would think that cuckolding the man would be considered much more disgusting of an act (and several women do this without a thought, in fact some plan and enjoy it purposely).



Actually, there aren't any double standards here because it isn't an issue between genders. It's an issue between the betrayer and the betrayed. I don't advocate revenge affairs and never said that it's OK for the OP's wife to do what she had done.

But I do say that, once a marriage is hit by infidelity, the betraying spouse has no right to expect the betrayed spouse to stay faithful for one simple reason.... unfairness of situation. The betrayer had an affair and the betrayed didn't. 

I'm not against reconciliation if someone wants to do it.... not at all. But let's be realistic and admit that reconciliation, with its theatrics, is just a more subtle form of rug sweeping. Why? Because, in the end, the faithful spouse ends up taking back the cheating spouse. We can talk all we want about remorse and doing heavy lifting by the betrayer but who is really doing a heavy lifting after an affair? 

It's the faithful, wounded spouse. Yes, they have to deal with anguish of betrayal, deceit, mental images, and simply being played for a fool. On another hand, the offending spouse, deep down, enjoys found memories of their passionate affair. 

Now, after an initial shock wears off a bit, the betrayed spouse may realize that all that is simply unfair and decides to have a revenge affair to even the score. It may happen a few days, weeks, months, or years after DD. Even if it happens 20 years later the cheating spouse cannot blame the betrayed spouse for crossing that line. They can accept it and try to work it out with the "betrayed" spouse or simply divorce, but they don't get to blame anyone for it. They had crossed the line first. 

It's rather a simple concept, isn't it? 

Once again, I don't advocate an idea of having a revenge affair and I certainly wouldn't take this road myself, but I can understand if someone decides to do so. Infidelity, once it happens, changes the dynamics within marriage irreversibly. There's no returning to what it was before and that's exactly why I've never considered reconciliation.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> *I'm guessing that there is more that you don't know.* You should start thinking about how bad you feel after her last revelation. How you're going to feel if there’s a next...


Bingo. We have a winner.

Wife working as a barmaid (what could possibly go wrong with that?) for years and she never gets home until hours after bar closes (musta been visiting the Museum of Science and Health, or maybe Natural History) for years.

Yes, there is a lot this guy doesn't know and he doesn't want to know.


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> You seem to conveniently forget the first incident ? now this is making me sound like I'm justifying OP's affair. Point is, she does not get a pass for revenge affair when she too cheated on him. No one gets a pass for an affair. Even if the spouse cheated on you. Now, it is different if the spouse separates and sleeps with other people.
> 
> This is not tit for tat.



No, I haven't forgotten anything. The OP has and is paying the price of it now.

And I'm not trying to justify her affair, I just don't blame her for it. Had she asked me for advice I'd have recommended her to get divorced.... I would never tell her to cheat.


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## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

Cake eating at its finest, geeze, what a f*cking mess


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## MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut (Mar 13, 2014)

zkraken said:


> She wanted to make sure of her feelings for me by sleeping with him.


Surely you realize this is a bunch of bu****it excuse? A huge red flag and the reasoning behind it is backwards.

Btw. Is your name after Zak McKraken by any chance?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

The more I think about this the more I realize what really rubs me the wrong way is OP's attitude. His wife certainly had no respect for marriage when she was f$cking a married man, they've both had affairs, she MAY have had one before he cheated, and they are equally immature and ill suited for marriage.

I find an affair while your wife is pregnant to be especially d0uchy; kind of like a wife who cheats while her husband is ill. It's crappy enough, even if he'd had one already, but the fact that she did it while he was ill suggests open hostility, which is what OP had when he had his during her pregnancy.

What the really rubs me wrong though is his righteous indignation; he gave up all moral high ground with his wh0re, yet he still felt he had the right to start a fight with OM, and he still complains about anger and movies. Perhaps the way for him to deal with it is to realize that he really doesn't have the right to be angry because he dished it out too. Is it ok for his wife to beat the sh!!t out of his sl$t, who by the way has no more respect for marriage then either of them? I could be angry all I want with my hb for doing something but if I'd done the same thing there would have to come a point where I realize that I in fact have no right to be angry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> The more I think about this the more I realize what really rubs me the wrong way is OP's attitude. His wife certainly had no respect for marriage when she was f$cking a married man, they've both had affairs, she MAY have had one before he cheated, and they are equally immature and ill suited for marriage.
> 
> I find an affair while your wife is pregnant to be especially d0uchy; kind of like a wife who cheats while her husband is ill. It's crappy enough, even if he'd had one already, but the fact that she did it while he was ill suggests open hostility, which is what OP had when he had his during her pregnancy.
> 
> ...



:iagree: You're absolutely right but this is simply too complex issue for an average CWI poster to comprehend.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

adriana said:


> :iagree: You're absolutely right but this is simply too complex issue for an average CWI poster to comprehend.


Nice.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

People who work in bars often listen to customers talk about imploding relationships. Listening and nodding sympathetically increases the tips. Drinking with customers to display solidarity increases the tips even more. After weeks of this socializing, the jump to sexual relations is natural. Your WW probably doesn't pull in as much in tips anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

Acabado said:


> Nice.



Just a sad reality, my friend.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

adriana said:


> :iagree: You're absolutely right but this is simply too complex issue for an average CWI poster to comprehend.


Particularly in a forum where womens infidelity is seen as just a little bit worse than mens. True they're all beaten up but the vitriol directed at female cheaters is noticably worse: I routinely see men asked if it bothers them that some other guy's d!ck was in his wife, but I've yet to see a betrayed wife have it pointed out to her that her husband's d!ck was in another woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Particularly in a forum where womens infidelity is seen as just a little bit worse than mens. True they're all beaten up but the vitriol directed at female cheaters is noticably worse: I routinely see men asked if it bothers them that some other guy's d!ck was in his wife, but I've yet to see a betrayed wife have it pointed out to her that her husband's d!ck was in another woman.


That's probably because there is no way for a husband to adulterate his wife's heirs and lineage. Adultery has always been, until very recently in the course of human events, universally seen as a crime against the husband, committed by the wife and her paramour. The double standard is the natural order of things.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Lordhavok said:


> Cake eating at its finest, geeze, what a f*cking mess


Maybe its best these two stick together. Spare a faithful partner the heartache.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> By your logic
> 
> She cheated ->he cheated -> she cheated -> Put him down for several affairs for cheating on her while never confessing hers ..
> 
> ...


:iagree:

and by the looks of it she cheated twice (possibly) before he cheated first.

but this is why revenge affairs really [email protected]

An eye for an eye and then everyone is blind

sometimes I wish I could have a revenge affair. I even had the chance but couldn't, I feel like a dork, less of a man because i didn't, I do not no why?
oh well, at least I can take the moral high road, it seems awful looney on this road not much traffic here.
Sorry just down today


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

convert said:


> :iagree:
> 
> and by the looks of it she cheated twice before he cheated
> 
> ...


Or:-

A f*ck for a f*ck and everyone has an STD..


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