# Newcomer, something really queer happened...



## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

I hope I hear some replies from both ladies and men about this. 

There are tons of issues with my marriage, but let's just say it is pretty ok (at least to most outsiders). I can elaborate more on that later. But what happened about a week ago is my focus here. 

We were on vacation out in Asia. We brought the kid alone too, but one day he got to stay with a friend while we took a quick trip to southern China. We stayed at a reasonable hotel and were tired from lots of walking. When we went to check if they had massage services they said they could actually come up to our room. So....

After 1 hr I was ready to go to sleep (we were in separate beds with 2 female masseuses). My husband said "let's add one more hour". I was like gees it's late, but whatever. As I was dozing off, I heard my husband asking if I was asleep. I probably just mumbled. Anyways, then he started asking the girl about "oil massage". I was like, no, thank you, thinking we are talking about real oil massage. But the girls giggled. Then there was a discussion about if they could "do it for both of us", and my masseuse giggled and said she could not do it for a woman. (My husband knew I was awake). Finally I got the point this was not aromatherapy. My husband was like "well, if you don't want it, I will have it". I was like, what....and said "do whatever you want". (I could not see anything because I was face down). After another while I heard my husband moaning and asked me if I wanted to watch (hand job). I was like "you've got to be kidding". So I kept my face down until I heard a louder moaning and I guess it was just the right time. Both girls left quickly and my husband said time to sleep. 

So, very simply, I would like to ask both men and women, if that's something you would do, or let it happen, or how you think about it. My husband has never had any relationship outside me (short of just kissing girlfriends).


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

thats creepy, and cheating


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

He was awfully casual about it for someone who has never had anything outside of his relationship with you.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

WTF?

I'm lost for words!

At the first sign of something a miss i would have been upright insisting the whole situation stopped now!

Why did you just lie there?

This is horrible.


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## UCanTalk (Mar 17, 2009)

where are your husband's boundaries and respect for your feelings?

From what i understand in Asia these things can be standard practice for men, but not with their wives present.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

So I guess I am hearing negative comments. Well, I don't know about cheating, since I was right there. I had not been too passionate about sex (but would do it passively), so he must have had built up some frustration level. I do talk about kinky stuff in bed (like watching him with someone or having him watch me with someone), but that's just talking. In fact this kind of made me realize how unhappy I would be to watch him REALLY do it with anyone. 

I wonder if anyone else has some opinion besides being totally negative...

Oh, and BTW, I know for sure about this guy's faithfulness. Not some clueless woman.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

jennifer1986 said:


> So I guess I am hearing negative comments. Well, I don't know about cheating, since I was right there. I had not been too passionate about sex (but would do it passively), so he must have had built up some frustration level. I do talk about kinky stuff in bed (like watching him with someone or having him watch me with someone), but that's just talking. In fact this kind of made me realize how unhappy I would be to watch him REALLY do it with anyone.
> 
> I wonder if anyone else has some opinion besides being totally negative...
> 
> Oh, and BTW, I know for sure about this guy's faithfulness. Not some clueless woman.


What you're talking about is a fantasy. Many of us have fantasies that involve other people. What I say to my wife is that I will not share her with anyone in the real world, and I don't want her to share me with anyone in the real world, but we can role play on fantasies. She seems very secure in this reassurance - wants it in fact as she doesn't really want to be with anyone, but naturally has some kinky fantasies like most people do. 

I think you need to be very explicit about where your boundaries are. Obviously, I think one has already been crossed, and there is some damage that will have to be dealt with. Maybe you can talk about role play in the future, but it sounds like you recognize that you have some lack of desire and may not be satisfying him (drawing on what you said yourself, not trying to put words in your mouth, though). I'd think you should work on that part, and finding what excites you rather than being willing to share him. There should be some compromise you can reach with this.

But in answer to your original question, yes, I think it was crossing the line big time. It's possible he didn't make the distinction between you communicating your fantasies and what you wanted in the real world - you know better than we what you communicated to him. Make sure he knows the boundaries very clearly.


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## papa5280 (Oct 12, 2011)

jennifer1986 said:


> I wonder if anyone else has some opinion besides being totally negative...
> 
> Oh, and BTW, I know for sure about this guy's faithfulness. Not some clueless woman.


Before this happened, had you two ever had any discussions about anything like this? If so, maybe he interpreted something from those conversations as a green light to do this (I'm trying to reach for something not totally negative). But, even then, that's a serious stretch.

But, if you had never talked about it in any context, then I, as a man, view it as extraordinarily disrespectful to you at a minimum, and more likely outright cheating.

And, although you are very confident in his faithfulness, I agree with the comments that this was a very casual drift into having another woman satisfy him sexually. It didn't just occur to him in the heat of the moment. He had considered this as at least a possibility.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My thought... It wasn't cheating because you were right there and gave him permission. Second thought... This wasn't his first HJ rodeo. He knew what was available, and how to ask for it. That would be the bigger issue, to me.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

jennifer1986 said:


> So I guess I am hearing negative comments. Well, I don't know about cheating, since I was right there. I had not been too passionate about sex (but would do it passively), so he must have had built up some frustration level. I do talk about kinky stuff in bed (like watching him with someone or having him watch me with someone), but that's just talking. In fact this kind of made me realize how unhappy I would be to watch him REALLY do it with anyone.
> 
> I wonder if anyone else has some opinion besides being totally negative...


Probably not. 

Why is being right there and hearing it happen any different than watching it happen? All you had to do was open your eyes and lift your head and you would have been watching your H receiving sexual gratification from another... in my book that is the definition of cheating - your presence there or not.

In my relationship, this is not something I would ever let happen or would ever tolerate ... ever. 

Why were you so passive during all of it?

If it did not bother you, why seek opinion from others on how they would feel about it? How DO you really feel about it?

How does your husband feel about it? Did he feel that it was okay? If so, would he feel that it's okay to do something like that if you aren't around? And, would it then be okay to do something even more?

What are both of your personal boundaries is this area? Have you ever discussed them with each other? If not, maybe you should. 

Best wishes.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I realize that everyone has differing definitions of cheating. But to me, the definition of cheating is "doing something against the rules". And the most important set of rules in the marriage are the ones determined my the two people in it. So if one person gives the other person permission for a hand job from a massage girl, and they're right there, it's not cheating. If she would have said no, and her husband snuck off later and gotten one, then yes, that would be cheating.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lovinmyhubby223 (Jan 31, 2012)

IMO, it sounds like just a lack of communication. Or should I say lack of specific communication. You mentioned discussing fantasies in bed “(like watching him with someone or having him watch me with someone),”. I get the impression that it was “just talking” to you but that your hubby might have taken it more literally and upon seeing the opportunity to make that fantasy a reality he took it. Now I’m not saying that was OK, I’m just saying I think I can understand what he might have been thinking and didn’t have malicious intent. 
Since this incident as you stated “kind of made me realize how unhappy I would be to watch him REALLY do it with anyone.” Then I would say there needs to be more concise communication between you and your hubby. Make sure that he understands that your fantasies are just that fantasies.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

jennifer1986 said:


> So I guess I am hearing negative comments. Well, I don't know about cheating, since I was right there. I had not been too passionate about sex (but would do it passively), so he must have had built up some frustration level. I do talk about kinky stuff in bed (like watching him with someone or having him watch me with someone), but that's just talking. In fact this kind of made me realize how unhappy I would be to watch him REALLY do it with anyone.
> 
> I wonder if anyone else has some opinion besides being totally negative...
> 
> *Oh, and BTW, I know for sure about this guy's faithfulness. Not some clueless woman*.


Don't be so sure you know exactly what he's doing when you're not with him. Unless you're with him 24 hours of the 7 days a week, you can't be sure. People can have sex during their work hours, lunch hour..a fake doctor's appointment, whatever. Some men have affairs and still manage to be home on time from work. 

I don't understand how passive you are about your husband getting a hand job from another woman while you're right there. Do you normally not speak up in uncomfortable situations? 

If he's frustrated by your sex life then focus on improving that. Once he gets a taste of how good it feels to orgasm with someone else, you're in trouble.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

jennifer1986 said:


> I wonder if anyone else has some opinion besides being totally negative...


well, if youre fine with it, i guess we should be too.
dont know why you posted then.



> Oh, and BTW, I know for sure about this guy's faithfulness. Not some clueless woman.


im sure you can find a few other women on here who thought the same thing...
before. :sleeping:


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Hell, I wouldn't pay for a HJ now that I'm single, so why would your husband?


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Jennifer says 'I had not been too passionate about sex (but would do it passively).

To me that infers that she has a lower drive than her husband. They were having a joint massage in the privacy of their hotel room...he got aroused, she wasnt interested... She know what the score was and was (it seems) Ok with it. He got his rocks off...thats all it was. Atleast he did it right there infront of her and didnt try to hide anything....Though having said that it was a bit 'in yer face'....

Big deal?...Nah.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

7737 said:


> Jennifer says 'I had not been too passionate about sex (but would do it passively).
> 
> To me that infers that she has a lower drive than her husband. They were having a joint massage in the privacy of their hotel room...he got aroused, she wasnt interested... She know what the score was and was (it seems) Ok with it. He got his rocks off...thats all it was. Atleast he did it right there infront of her and didnt try to hide anything....Though having said that it was a bit 'in yer face'....
> 
> Big deal?...Nah.


he should have known 'WHAT THE SCORE WAS' to be married.
sounded like he already knew what was going to happen which tells me this wasnt his first rodeo.
hes done it before.
he has hidden it from her til this point.
he has cheated on her, even if it was just a hj.
then he did it in front of her.
how disrespectful.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

Oh, thought I would have to make several points. I hate typing up a 3 page post that no one would read.

(1) We have been married nearly 20 years.
(2) In the very beginning, in fact, almost right after marriage (very young, out of college), I had to go away for professional school. To cut it short, I had a major affair (considering the length) with my classmate. He knew about it right after it happened. I can see there are plenty discussions/threads about affairs here. Youth, immaturity, loneliness, lack of communication, whatever you call the reason. Obviously we did survive this.
(2a) Therefore, in my mind, I owe him something. 
(3) I have been going to counseling on-and-off all these years. My biggest problem is I can never meet his standard. No matter how hard I tried, either I was failing at housework, or as a mother, or as a career person (I have a doctorate degree, but in the beginning he said I was making below national average). 
(4) Despite (3), I know this is a good man and a good father (yes, I feel sorry about the affair, and I wish it had never happened, but it did, in a strange place I had no one to count on, during the month when it started snowing and I was terrified of driving or even walking...I am from the west coast...and we had to memorize 5000 Latin words in a month and that classmate was all I had...enough of my excuses). Anyways, I had made up my mind to try to work things out, despite his constant putting-me-down (he denies any such intention, says I am over sensitive). 
(5) That about sums up the reason why I had not been able to feel so passionate about him. I just try everyday to be careful not to do something "wrong" (I mean daily life stuff, not affair kind stuff) and get a sarcastic remark. 

For the ones that wonder what the hell I was thinking just letting this happen...IT'S COMPLICATED.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi Jennifer ~

If you are not currently in counseling, please go back. 

Yes, you had an affair. That does not mean that you owe it to your husband to allow him to do the same, or to allow him to do things (such as the 'happy ending' in your presence) if you are inherently uncomfortable or against them.

You should not be allowing these kinds of things to happen simply because you feel guilty. That will slowly eat your self-esteem away bit by bit.

You do owe something, actually - you owe *yourself* forgiveness, and your husband owes you that too.

I suggested the counseling again because it seems that maybe you have not been able to work through all of these issues - especially in light of his constantly putting you down and you tolerating that and still wanting to try and work things out.

Your husband sounds like he may have some issues of his own. What is his level of commitment to bettering your marriage?

What did you two do after the affair to reconcile? Did you attend any counselling?

Wishing you all the best.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

Well, all these years, mostly it was me that went to counseling. My husband went several times. He did not go that much because he didn't think there was so much problem. 

You see, my husband is inherently a very good man (makes good $, does housework, loves kids, no bad habits), but he tends to (always does is more accurate) view things in his own way. I do not think he puts me down because I had committed an affair. When he criticizes me, he thinks it's for my own good. Over the years, I gradually built up a protective wall to counter this--to think myself (really unconsciously) as a team player, in this task of raising kids, working together, keeping the house organized, blah, blah, but not think myself as a woman to be loved. I suppose this way of thinking somehow reduced the expectation and thus the sadness and loneliness I would have felt. Also I tried to find many hobbies and keep my self esteem.

When this "queer" thing happened, I felt baffled and thought about it for a day. The next night we got back and the kid was still away, so we had the time to ourselves again and I had a very different experience with him since I had ruminated all day about the incident and felt somehow I should be more passionate. I know it might not make sense but it just happened. The next day after that, I felt like a little woman like I had not felt for eons...the way a woman feels like cuddling up to her man and talk like a little girl...then in the afternoon when we went to the bank for some business he said I did not know anything about finances and make stupid mistakes. I kind of protested and soon we were in the typical argument. He called me a nut case (term I had told him repeatedly to not use) and I just felt COMPLETELY disillusioned. It's like "YOU ARE SUCH AN IDIOT for thinking things would work out". 

To cut it short again...I cannot handle this very well and for now moved out. It's close to work and I am slowly thinking what to do next.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

Jennifer,

I'm going to have to apologize for answering too quickly in my earlier post. We all probably should have asked more questions to find the rest of the story. As I'm finding is the usual case, Enchantment speaks a great deal of wisdom in her post.

Coming from a man, some things I would say are, yes, you did something wrong, BUT, that does not mean you are worthless as a person, and it does NOT mean that you should be treated as you are. The bottom line is that if your husband wants to stay with you, then he must be willing to forgive. If he will not forgive, then he should not stay. He absolutely should NOT be taking the opportunity to just manipulate you endlessly with this. Loving relationships are not manipulative.

I won't enter into counseling here - I'm not qualified to do so even if I wanted to. I wanted to give you an opinion since I thought my honest opinion is something that would be encouraging. 

I'm in full agreement with Enchantment. You need to forgive yourself and stop thinking you deserve these things when you are manipulated or when you are treated as something of less value. If your husband wants to continue with you, he needs to stop taking advantage of your or putting you down the way he has been. I really think you should go to counseling for yourself first. If your husband wants to continue with you, and you want to continue with him, then the ground rules really need to be that he is willing to go to counseling as well IMO. I say yourself first, because even in your last post, I still think I see you not valuing yourself the way you should value yourself.

I wish you the best with this. I can see it has been very difficult, and I can now see a little better why it is so difficult. I hope you carry through with the counseling.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Jennifer,

It sounds like mixed messages to say the very least.

I think for you the horrible truth is that no one here can tell you how you should feel about what happened. Maybe it was a gross breach of trust. Maybe it was an interesting "experiment". Only you can decide.

I'm guessing that even if the act didn't appeal to you, given your reaction the next day there was some aspect of his behaviour that did appeal to you. But your husband has no chance of knowing how you feel if you don't even know yourself.

Regardless of the past, you need to take some level of control and responsibility for the kind of marriage you have in the future.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

well, another issue is that is I had sort of given up on getting fulfillment from sex. Married so young and not experienced, then unfortunately thru the affair it was not possible to enjoy anything because of the guilt, then the subsequent years, could not really talk to husband if I was not satisfied--would not want to get a remark that "yeah only THOSE men can make you happy". So I am kind of chronically repressed, that's why this "queer" act actually got me a little unrepressed. Now I have the double whammy that I am sitting here by myself with all the pain and the body is still in the unrepressed mode. Tough.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> Don't be so sure you know exactly what he's doing when you're not with him. Unless you're with him 24 hours of the 7 days a week, you can't be sure. People can have sex during their work hours, lunch hour..a fake doctor's appointment, whatever. Some men have affairs and still manage to be home on time from work.
> 
> I don't understand how passive you are about your husband getting a hand job from another woman while you're right there. Do you normally not speak up in uncomfortable situations?
> 
> If he's frustrated by your sex life then focus on improving that. Once he gets a taste of how good it feels to orgasm with someone else, you're in trouble.


:iagree::iagree:
Stop being a doormat, bricks!


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

jennifer1986 said:


> well, another issue is that is I had sort of given up on getting fulfillment from sex. Married so young and not experienced, then unfortunately thru the affair it was not possible to enjoy anything because of the guilt, then the subsequent years, could not really talk to husband if I was not satisfied--would not want to get a remark that "yeah only THOSE men can make you happy". So I am kind of chronically repressed, that's why this "queer" act actually got me a little unrepressed. Now I have the double whammy that I am sitting here by myself with all the pain and the body is still in the unrepressed mode. Tough.



I don't see how you are "stuck" but you do seem to want to abdicate responsibility for the future of your relationship.

You are making decisions right now. You are deciding how to react to what your husband did. Your decision will have an impact on his future behavior and your relationship. Inaction is a decision. No one knows how you "should" react but just realize you are a participant.


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