# So unsure of what to do-still together



## NotSure74

Hi. I just found this forum. I’ve been married over 20 years. To start I’m not guiltless in the sad situation I call my marriage. However, I have been dealing with a lot of emotional abuse I guess yoi could call it, I was an enabler to his drinking and acting out, going out, never speaking up or I guess standing my ground. I just got to the point where I didn’t want to argue so whatever he said or wanted I’d do and I’ve been miserable for such a long time. The worst part is for many years his behavior not only affected me it affected our children. I cannot tell you why I never left, why I never stood my ground and said stop, or I’m not putting up with this. No clue. So as of recent because our marriage has been in shambles he had been drinking and threw a scary tantrum. He finally fell asleep on the couch and kids and I slept in our room and locked the door. For the first time I was legitimately scared. I left the next day with kids and I had never left before. I came back home and things were super stressful. He has been on his best behavior for over 6 weeks. It’s the weirdest thing ever. We have been seeing a pastor and his wife and he listens , doesn’t get angry, we never talk about anything said on the way home or before the next session. Sorry this is so long. There is soooooooooo much. So much history. So much he’s saying now and I have no clue what to do. I feel for the most part that I don’t want to be together because I don’t believe someone an change just like that and if they can, wasn't I or we worth it the 100 x before ? Why change now? Because we are older? It’s just so weird. I feel like I had to try the counseling to know I did everything I could and especially because it included God in it. I’ve tried counseling before he’d go to first appointment and then not show for the next two or three, but I guess because I actually left he’s like,”oh ****, I better go.” Anyway, so much more keeps happening but I guess this is a start putting this out there. 
thanks.


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## EleGirl

NotSure74 said:


> Hi. I just found this forum. I’ve been married over 20 years. To start I’m not guiltless in the sad situation I call my marriage. However, I have been dealing with a lot of emotional abuse I guess yoi could call it, I was an enabler to his drinking and acting out, going out, never speaking up or I guess standing my ground. I just got to the point where I didn’t want to argue so whatever he said or wanted I’d do and I’ve been miserable for such a long time. The worst part is for many years his behavior not only affected me it affected our children. I cannot tell you why I never left, why I never stood my ground and said stop, or I’m not putting up with this. No clue. So as of recent because our marriage has been in shambles he had been drinking and threw a scary tantrum. He finally fell asleep on the couch and kids and I slept in our room and locked the door. For the first time I was legitimately scared. I left the next day with kids and I had never left before. I came back home and things were super stressful. He has been on his best behavior for over 6 weeks. It’s the weirdest thing ever. We have been seeing a pastor and his wife and he listens , doesn’t get angry, we never talk about anything said on the way home or before the next session. Sorry this is so long. There is soooooooooo much. So much history. So much he’s saying now and I have no clue what to do. I feel for the most part that I don’t want to be together because I don’t believe someone an change just like that and if they can, wasn't I or we worth it the 100 x before ? Why change now? Because we are older? It’s just so weird. I feel like I had to try the counseling to know I did everything I could and especially because it included God in it. I’ve tried counseling before he’d go to first appointment and then not show for the next two or three, but I guess because I actually left he’s like,”oh ****, I better go.” Anyway, so much more keeps happening but I guess this is a start putting this out there.
> thanks.


It might very well be that you leaving scared enough to get his attention. Sometimes people do change.

Many who find themselves in a situation like yours hang on for years trying desperately to hold the relationship and family together. There is a very good book that has helped a lot of people in this situation: *Codependent No More & Beyond Codependency *by Melody Beattie. The link is to a version of the book that I think is out of print but there are a lot of used copies for sale. This author has other books on the topic.


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## NotSure74

Angelwanderer said:


> Hi.
> 
> It feels so much better to get it out, doesn't it?
> 
> Do you think he'll turn his behavior around or go back to his old ways?
> 
> -A
> 
> Wrote a letter about my s/marriage - became a novel. Love Hurts: When Breaking Up Is The Right Thing To Do


I just don’t know if he will. That’s my dilemma. Thank you.


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## NotSure74

EleGirl said:


> It might very well be that you leaving scared enough to get his attention. Sometimes people do change.
> 
> Many who find themselves in a situation like yours hang on for years trying desperately to hold the relationship and family together. There is a very good book that has helped a lot of people in this situation: *Codependent No More & Beyond Codependency *by Melody Beattie. The link is to a version of the book that I think is out of print but there are a lot of used copies for sale. This author has other books on the topic.


Thank you so much! I think this is what we have is the codependency issue. I think he’s afraid to lose my presence but not me necessarily. I’ve always been there for him no matter what. I have to try to get a book. Thanks again.


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## Beach123

Has he stopped drinking? If so, how long since his last drink?

no one should stay when you don’t feel safe! Especially you and your kids should leave until a LONG time has passed where he shows serious change! That includes never drinking again, and never showing rage again.

how old are your kids?


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## marcy*

My husband used to drink more when younger. What bothered me the most wasn’t that he used to come home drunk, but how he behaved when drunk. He hasn’t been drunk like that in years, but I always wonder “ What if” everytime he is out drinking with friends. That feeling tortures me and it will never go away.
I know how you feel.


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## TJW

Angelwanderer said:


> Do you think he'll turn his behavior around or go back to his old ways?


I think that the most likely thing that will happen is that he will go back to his old ways. I'm a believer. I know that God CAN change people, but He doesn't, against their will. They have to submit their will to God in order to be changed. It's much easier to remain as they are.

The words of our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:13 KJV)

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for _wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat_


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## WandaJ

You have every right a reason to feel wary about that sudden change. he knows he really screw it up this time, and he is trying to fix it before you leave him. It may work, it may not. And even he changes permanently, the other question is - do you want to stay with him? You have to ask yourself if there is anything left on your side.

you say he listens when you meet up with pastor and his wife. But does he talk, does he actively participate in the session? do you talk directly to him and tell him how his behavior makes you feel, and how it affected you over the years? Does he respond to it, acknowledges your feelings and what he could try to improve on his side? 
Who does most of the talking in these sessions? If he just listens and agrees with everything, that looks more like he is just doing anything what he think is expected from him to keep you from leaving him at this moment. But how much of it does he get, it's another questions. Are you able to see if he really gets it what's happening?


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## NotSure74

What you said, is everything that I see and goes through my mind. Mostly I feel like he is just going through the motions. Just like at home when I bring up very serious things he never acknowledges them....you hit the nail on the head and no he won't acknowledge them in counseling. He tends to go around the questions. The pastor tries and does successfully get his attention but after so many times he eventually moves on to something else. It's like pulling teeth. He hesitantly speaks when it's about the hard stuff. I genuinely cannot figure out if he is truly stumped or he is just playing it up (like "I don't understand, what do you mean"). When the pastor tells us to repeat stuff back to each other we do. Last night was the first time he spoke up more and this was our 3rd meeting. I said I felt he is untrustworthy and he got upset and said, "wow, we don't even know them (pastor and wife) and you are going to say I'm untrustworthy so they will think bad of me. So I went off and said I don't care what they think, that's not why we are here, he asked me a question and I answered, etc...I went off. The pastor and his wife told him they do not judge they have been through things themselves and they've seen and heard a lot worse to make him feel more comfortable. To me he comes off as a different person in front of them like he seeks their approval. I think there are just so many things going on with him. I think he thinks if we get through all these sessions (I may have already said this) that everything will be fine because he attended the sessions. He is a narcissist so for me that is all I know and tend to see. On the drive home last night he said it's so great to live this life we have, everything we've been through with the woman of my dreams, you. I was speechless. I honestly do not know what is going on.


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## NotSure74

TJW said:


> I think that the most likely thing that will happen is that he will go back to his old ways. I'm a believer. I know that God CAN change people, but He doesn't, against their will. They have to submit their will to God in order to be changed. It's much easier to remain as they are.
> 
> The words of our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:13 KJV)
> 
> Enter ye in at the strait gate: for _wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat_


Right.


Beach123 said:


> Has he stopped drinking? If so, how long since his last drink?
> 
> no one should stay when you don’t feel safe! Especially you and your kids should leave until a LONG time has passed where he shows serious change! That includes never drinking again, and never showing rage again.
> 
> how old are your kids?


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## NotSure74

TJW said:


> I think that the most likely thing that will happen is that he will go back to his old ways. I'm a believer. I know that God CAN change people, but He doesn't, against their will. They have to submit their will to God in order to be changed. It's much easier to remain as they are.
> 
> The words of our Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 7:13 KJV)
> 
> Enter ye in at the strait gate: for _wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat_


Right. I believe if it is truly his desire to seek guidance from God, it is possible but I cannot do that for him. He says he understands I'm relying on God but that we have to make the personal choice each and every day to act on our marriage if we want to make it work. It's like the pastor said last night and the other times, "It absolutely will not work without God in it." He encouraged us to start attending church and getting involved in small groups, etc. I am in my journey and it's far from great but I'm in it and I know what God is capable of and if we are think differently in regards to needing Him then I don't see how it can work.


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## NotSure74

Beach123 said:


> Has he stopped drinking? If so, how long since his last drink?
> 
> no one should stay when you don’t feel safe! Especially you and your kids should leave until a LONG time has passed where he shows serious change! That includes never drinking again, and never showing rage again.
> 
> how old are your kids?


He has not been drinking at home at all. It has been maybe 4 weeks. However, he went to play golf the other day and he's played and been home right after. Well, this time he came home later and was still playing it cool but I could tell he had at least a few. He fell asleep on the couch so that kind of confirmed it and when I woke him to go to bed he opened his eyes and looked back and they were so bloodshot and he was speaking in Spanish-he talks in his sleep and said yes, he had a drink and something else about a drink but I couldn't understand it all...I just shook my head and then he said in English, "oh yeah I was going to bed." 

I had never left before and I left because I didn't feel safe. I did come back home sooner than I wanted and it's because I felt sorry for him. It's pathetic, I know but it's how I am and I am trying to get better. My kids have always come before him and they always will, that's why we left. The reason they have come before him is because he never showed me much affection and I didn't either because he was hardly home and my kids just were an unconditional love I had never experienced before. My kids are 15 & 7. I told him when I came home he could never drink again and no, I haven't brought up the day/night he played golf. It's like maybe I'm expecting him to just screw up again and that what I believe to be a front won't last and then I can say guilt free I'm leaving.


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## NotSure74

marcy* said:


> My husband used to drink more when younger. What bothered me the most wasn’t that he used to come home drunk, but how he behaved when drunk. He hasn’t been drunk like that in years, but I always wonder “ What if” everytime he is out drinking with friends. That feeling tortures me and it will never go away.
> I know how you feel.


I am sorry and I get that too. I have been so used to him coming home like that which is sad because he could have killed himself or someone else. It's what he'd say and do when he came home. I never thought much about what he was doing after so many years because I think I just stopped caring. I'm gonna pray for you that the feeling will go away and that things will be good and great for the both of you.


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## NotSure74

I wanted to say to EleGirl and whoever else is interested that about 5/6 days ago my best friend sent me a you tube video her therapist sent her...it was Codependent No More. Part one and part two. I listened to some and was like, "yup, yup, yup that's me" and after you sent that recommendation I listed to the rest of both parts and it was everything!!!!!!!! So, so happy I listened to them.


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## MattMatt

@NotSure74 It's great you are both speaking with your Pastor. It really is. But here's a question, is the Pastor qualified in relationship advice and alcohol dependency counselling? Because if not, there needs to be the intervention of experts in relationship problems and alcohol dependency as well as your Pastor and his wife.


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## WandaJ

What MattMatt said - how qualified is Pastor in handling your issues?

Second - your husband is focused on looking good in front of Pastor and his wife, because they are part of your Sunday social circle, you still will be around them when this is over (one way or another). For that reason it might be better to have complete stranger to do it, instead of Pastor. But that would be more expensive.

It doesn't seem like he is getting it. Maybe it will take few more sessions, but chances are that he thinks that just being there makes him a good guy. 
You said that you do not talk about session and your problems outside the counseling. Do you think if you start conversation about it , went back to something that you wanted to discuss deeper, he would respond positiviely, or he would throw tantrum, or just disregard it?
Does it seems like every next sessioin moves forward a little, or not?

When we did our MC, the sessions were brutal. He would fight like a lion against things that I said, I would say my part with non-emotional voice, trying not to get pulled in the quarrell. We both were physically exhausted after each session. But by the next session he would stew on the things I said and would go back to them. But that's how he always behaved. I had to go through the battle of the century to get something accross. No wonder we will be divorcing.

You do seem like you are all spent already. Life with someone with alcohol dependance is not easy. You really have to be honest iwht yourself if you even want to fight for that.
Maybe IC just for you?


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## NotSure74

MattMatt said:


> @NotSure74 It's great you are both speaking with your Pastor. It really is. But here's a question, is the Pastor qualified in relationship advice and alcohol dependency counselling? Because if not, there needs to be the intervention of experts in relationship problems and alcohol dependency as well as your Pastor and his wife.


He said from the start that people at church would speak to him about their marital issues and after some time the lead pastor asked he and his wife to offer guidance. He said he wasn’t a counselor but he does try to help marriages/people understand that they have to be whole and happy on their own in Christ and can’t expect their spouse to make them happy. He talks about forgiveness and just because someone can forgive doesn’t mean they trust them right away. He said my husband is an alcoholic but no, he isn’t an expert in either. I think they are good for both of us but especially him because he never trust anyone and it seems like he listens. I don’t know if he absorbs it.


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## WandaJ

NotSure74 said:


> they have to be whole and happy on their own in Christ and can’t expect their spouse to make them happy. He talks about forgiveness and just because someone can forgive doesn’t mean they trust them right away. He said my husband is an alcoholic but no, he isn’t an expert in either.


There is not much in these words that would convince your husbad to improve. This sounds more like a way to get you stay in marriage - forgiveness, not expecting happiness from your husband but from within (which is great thing, but it sends message to your husband that he is off the hook). No wonder he thinks you guys are doing great after those sessions. 

he needs to hear how he damages his family, and is about to lose it. What he hears is that you must forgive him and work on yourself to be happy.....


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## Prodigal

My late husband was an alcoholic. We tried marriage counseling, but I finally told my husband to stop going with me. Why? Because, as the counselor said, "Your husband is one slippery character." What did he mean by that? We'd be in a session, and my husband would avoid, minimize, deflect, and just play dumb. It's what addicts do, and it's known as avoiding responsibility. Thus, he didn't have to admit he had a problem or that he needed to dig deeper.

This is just my take on what you have said so far, but if your husband truly has a problem with drinking, only HE can come to that conclusion and do something about it. At this point, I'd say he'll do the minimum he can get by with, then he'll revert to his old ways. All you can do at this point is take a wait-and-see approach.

My husband tried AA. and he was in three in-patient rehabs. Sadly, none of the help he received stuck. I wish you and your husband the best. But it's your husband's responsibility to realize and admit he has a drinking problem.


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## NotSure74

WandaJ said:


> There is not much in these words that would convince your husbad to improve. This sounds more like a way to get you stay in marriage - forgiveness, not expecting happiness from your husband but from within (which is great thing, but it sends message to your husband that he is off the hook). No wonder he thinks you guys are doing great after those sessions.
> 
> he needs to hear how he damages his family, and is about to lose it. What he hears is that you must forgive him and work on yourself to be happy.....


@WandaJ , that is what I feel like , what it seems like is happening. It’s like I’m thinking it but you put it in to words for me.


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## NotSure74

NotSure74 said:


> @WandaJ , that is what I feel like , what it seems like is happening. It’s like I’m thinking it but you put it in to words for me.


@WandaJ -what do I do if he comes home and hugs me and tells me he loves me every day and he’s so glad he’s been able to love this life with me the person of his dreams....it’s like he’s trying to convince me that see..everything is great now you love me back.


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## Prodigal

NotSure74 said:


> @WandaJ it’s like he’s trying to convince me that see..everything is great now you love me back.


It's called manipulation. Just another way to rug sweep the issues.


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## WandaJ

NotSure74 said:


> @WandaJ , that is what I feel like , what it seems like is happening. It’s like I’m thinking it but you put it in to words for me.


It is almost like they all gaslighting you. I am sure that Pastor and his wife have best intentions, but as religious people they come from the place where keeping family intact is the main goal. And that puts all the pressure and work on you, basically getting your husband off the hook, very traditional approach. Keeping family together is extremely important, but not at all cost. 

At this point it does not look like he is serious about changes. Hugging and saying "I Love you" all the time is not a change, is a manipulation to make sure you are staying. He does not show any signs of understanding the real problem, and taking responsiblity for it, and working on it from now on. That would be the only time when forgiveness would have place.

I think you are done with him, and rightly so. Is there anything he can do, that would make you want to stay in this marriage, trust him again, and believe there is future for both of you together? Because if not, this counseling only makes him feel better, while you are moving even farther away from him.

Get your own counseling. Even if it few sessions, but it would help you to put things in order for you. Or talk to good friend. Try to be honest with yourself about what you really want. I think you want out, and you are staying and doing this pseudo-counseling out of guilt and responsiblity.


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## NotSure74

WandaJ said:


> It is almost like they all gaslighting you. I am sure that Pastor and his wife have best intentions, but as religious people they come from the place where keeping family intact is the main goal. And that puts all the pressure and work on you, basically getting your husband off the hook, very traditional approach. Keeping family together is extremely important, but not at all cost.
> 
> At this point it does not look like he is serious about changes. Hugging and saying "I Love you" all the time is not a change, is a manipulation to make sure you are staying. He does not show any signs of understanding the real problem, and taking responsiblity for it, and working on it from now on. That would be the only time when forgiveness would have place.
> 
> I think you are done with him, and rightly so. Is there anything he can do, that would make you want to stay in this marriage, trust him again, and believe there is future for both of you together? Because if not, this counseling only makes him feel better, while you are moving even farther away from him.
> 
> Get your own counseling. Even if it few sessions, but it would help you to put things in order for you. Or talk to good friend. Try to be honest with yourself about what you really want. I think you want out, and you are staying and doing this pseudo-counseling out of guilt and responsiblity.


Thank you for taking the time to write me back. I do want out and I am doing it out of guilt and responsibility. I appreciate your input and everyone else’s. It makes me feel not crazy. Thanks again.


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## WandaJ

NotSure74 said:


> Thank you for taking the time to write me back. I do want out and I am doing it out of guilt and responsibility. I appreciate your input and everyone else’s. It makes me feel not crazy. Thanks again.


You are not crazy. You are miserable.


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## Beach123

This is never going to work if he doesn’t realize that when he drinks it’s a big problem. The fact that he drank after golf means he has no intention of not drinking. He’s just going to drink when you’re not with him.

start making plans to be independent from him. Make sure you can make things work for yourself and to feel safe and protected without him.

be strong. Al anon may help you.


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## aine

Your H is an alcoholic, so alcohol will be his first love, not you nor the kids. He will make promises and mean them at the time but later break every single one of them. You will continue on the roller coaster of hoping, he will let you down, you will threaten to leave, he will try again and round and around it goes. You and your kids need Al Anon and Al Ateen, you can also join Sober Recovery.com an online group with useful resources.
Your AH will not change until he himself hits rock bottom and realises he needs to do something and join a programme such as AA. Until he does this nothing will change.
You could spend your life on the roller coaster (I did) or you could get out now. By being co-dependent and covering for him, you do him no favours. He must hit rock bottom, losing you and his family may do it but then again it may not.

Get into Alanon, get a good support group around you and after some time decide what to do. You cannot change him. That emptiness in your relationship is due to the alcoholic's inner life, there isn't one. Forget about emotional support, affection and support in bringing up the family, you are on your own. Therefore, you now have to put yourself and your kids first. Make decisions for you not for him.
Get to the point where you stop controlling his life, covering for him, let him suffer the consequences of his actions. Let go. And remember he broke his vows when he put alcohol before his family.


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## NotSure74

Beach123 said:


> This is never going to work if he doesn’t realize that when he drinks it’s a big problem. The fact that he drank after golf means he has no intention of not drinking. He’s just going to drink when you’re not with him.
> 
> start making plans to be independent from him. Make sure you can make things work for yourself and to feel safe and protected without him.
> 
> be strong. Al anon may help you.


Thank you. You are right.


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## NotSure74

aine said:


> Your H is an alcoholic, so alcohol will be his first love, not you nor the kids. He will make promises and mean them at the time but later break every single one of them. You will continue on the roller coaster of hoping, he will let you down, you will threaten to leave, he will try again and round and around it goes. You and your kids need Al Anon and Al Ateen, you can also join Sober Recovery.com an online group with useful resources.
> Your AH will not change until he himself hits rock bottom and realises he needs to do something and join a programme such as AA. Until he does this nothing will change.
> You could spend your life on the roller coaster (I did) or you could get out now. By being co-dependent and covering for him, you do him no favours. He must hit rock bottom, losing you and his family may do it but then again it may not.
> 
> Get into Alanon, get a good support group around you and after some time decide what to do. You cannot change him. That emptiness in your relationship is due to the alcoholic's inner life, there isn't one. Forget about emotional support, affection and support in bringing up the family, you are on your own. Therefore, you now have to put yourself and your kids first. Make decisions for you not for him.
> Get to the point where you stop controlling his life, covering for him, let him suffer the consequences of his actions. Let go. And remember he broke his vows when he put alcohol before his family.


Thank you. I forgot, the pastor mentioned to me the group Alanon. I need to get in to that. I’m gonna take a screenshot of this for reference. We just did the most recent piece of homework. It was brutal to hear him apologize for things that have happened (not all things but quite a few). We had to go in to detail of what we did, how it made the other person feel, apologize and ask for forgiveness. I thanked him. I told him I forgive him but I don’t know if I can just flip a switch and be loving and as if nothing ever happened. He said we have to go forward and you have to try. I said yes, but remember I’ve been going through all of this for many years and you’re just now wanting to make things right. I also asked him if he drank that day at the golf course, he said no. I didn’t mention him sleep talking in Spanish. I don’t know if that proves anything. I asked him if he still wants to drink and he said yes. He said he won’t drink like he has been. I said I didn’t want him to hide who he is and what makes him happy. He said well if I have one too many you can tell me . I said no I’m not your keeper. I told him I can’t control him , he has to do that. I said just like you finally decided to go to counseling you’re doing it because you want to because I left. He said just tell me if you want to leave. You seem like you don’t want to be with me. I just froze. Anyway, I really appreciate the responses. It seems so obvious what the deal is. I’m not sure why I can’t just pull the trigger. Do I have hope I’ll fall in love again and he’ll be different or do I just feel totally sorry for him and his version of our life together and what if he does change? like him with his issues only I can answer this for myself. I do care about my happiness and my kids are everything to me and having them in the best environment is to hate best. Thank you!


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## aine

NotSure74 said:


> Thank you. I forgot, the pastor mentioned to me the group Alanon. I need to get in to that. I’m gonna take a screenshot of this for reference. We just did the most recent piece of homework. It was brutal to hear him apologize for things that have happened (not all things but quite a few). We had to go in to detail of what we did, how it made the other person feel, apologize and ask for forgiveness. I thanked him. I told him I forgive him but I don’t know if I can just flip a switch and be loving and as if nothing ever happened. He said we have to go forward and you have to try. I said yes, but remember I’ve been going through all of this for many years and you’re just now wanting to make things right. I also asked him if he drank that day at the golf course, he said no. I didn’t mention him sleep talking in Spanish. I don’t know if that proves anything. I asked him if he still wants to drink and he said yes. He said he won’t drink like he has been. I said I didn’t want him to hide who he is and what makes him happy. He said well if I have one too many you can tell me . I said no I’m not your keeper. I told him I can’t control him , he has to do that. I said just like you finally decided to go to counseling you’re doing it because you want to because I left. He said just tell me if you want to leave. You seem like you don’t want to be with me. I just froze. Anyway, I really appreciate the responses. It seems so obvious what the deal is. I’m not sure why I can’t just pull the trigger. Do I have hope I’ll fall in love again and he’ll be different or do I just feel totally sorry for him and his version of our life together and what if he does change? like him with his issues only I can answer this for myself. I do care about my happiness and my kids are everything to me and having them in the best environment is to hate best. Thank you!


@NotSure74. You do not have to make decisions about your marriage now but you do have to tell your AH the truth of what his actions have done to you, the kids and your marriage. They may or may not be salvageable. You really have to educate yourself on alcoholism and all that goes with it, it is a family disease. Pastors and church members who have not been through it have no idea. So the biblical directive to forgive, though necessary for yourself does not mean you simply bury it and move on, that cannot happen because you and the kids will have suffered a form of PTSD which may take years to get over. I am a Christian and I will tell you honestly that Christian pastors (usually men) will tell you alot of stuff but they don't know because it is not their lived experience. you need individual counselling, forget about the marriage for now. Tell your husband you are not prepared to work on the marriage or relationship until he works fully on himself for a year or more and demonstrates to you that he is emotionally safe to be with. 

Read the book called The Emotionally Destructive Marriage by Leslie Vernick. She is a christian counselor but does not subscribe to the usual mantra of forgive and suck it up. She is a breath of fresh air and understands the plight of many women in this type of scenario. You will also find alot of resources on SoberRecovery.com for family members.
Knowledge is power as understanding where you are helps you to see how you can move out of the status quo.


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## NotSure74

aine said:


> @NotSure74. You do not have to make decisions about your marriage now but you do have to tell your AH the truth of what his actions have done to you, the kids and your marriage. They may or may not be salvageable. You really have to educate yourself on alcoholism and all that goes with it, it is a family disease. Pastors and church members who have not been through it have no idea. So the biblical directive to forgive, though necessary for yourself does not mean you simply bury it and move on, that cannot happen because you and the kids will have suffered a form of PTSD which may take years to get over. I am a Christian and I will tell you honestly that Christian pastors (usually men) will tell you alot of stuff but they don't know because it is not their lived experience. you need individual counselling, forget about the marriage for now. Tell your husband you are not prepared to work on the marriage or relationship until he works fully on himself for a year or more and demonstrates to you that he is emotionally safe to be with.
> 
> Read the book called The Emotionally Destructive Marriage by Leslie Vernick. She is a christian counselor but does not subscribe to the usual mantra of forgive and suck it up. She is a breath of fresh air and understands the plight of many women in this type of scenario. You will also find alot of resources on SoberRecovery.com for family members.
> Knowledge is power as understanding where you are helps you to see how you can move out of the status quo.


Thank you so much. Every time I read something from someone who took the time to try and inform/help me I have more hope. Hope that it’ll be okay if I leave or that I expect more and like you said about burying it and the effect it’s had on my oldest especially. I have a pattern obviously of doing just that -burying it and trying to move on as if it’s something that’s okay to put up with. I’m gonna get the book and thank you for web address too!❤


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## FamilyMan216

If you love your husband and want to honor your vows, only you can answer those questions. You know him and can recognize whether something is genuine from him or not. Follow your heart and do what you think is best


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## NotSure74

Prodigal said:


> My late husband was an alcoholic. We tried marriage counseling, but I finally told my husband to stop going with me. Why? Because, as the counselor said, "Your husband is one slippery character." What did he mean by that? We'd be in a session, and my husband would avoid, minimize, deflect, and just play dumb. It's what addicts do, and it's known as avoiding responsibility. Thus, he didn't have to admit he had a problem or that he needed to dig deeper.
> 
> This is just my take on what you have said so far, but if your husband truly has a problem with drinking, only HE can come to that conclusion and do something about it. At this point, I'd say he'll do the minimum he can get by with, then he'll revert to his old ways. All you can do at this point is take a wait-and-see approach.
> 
> My husband tried AA. and he was in three in-patient rehabs. Sadly, none of the help he received stuck. I wish you and your husband the best. But it's your husband's responsibility to realize and admit he has a drinking problem.


@Prodigal , I'm sorry, I don't know how I missed this message. Thank you for messaging me. I'm sorry about your husband, the loss and everything you went through. So I think we should have just gone to a regular marital counselor and not the pastor even though they are great, but even before I've read some of the threads I felt it was true that I am being pushed to tolerate him, find support but stay married and encourage him. I don't want to do that. At the counseling my husband said the first visit he was not a drunk or an alcoholic and no-one ever said he was. I've never even called him either. I don't know if he doesn't actually get certain questions being asked but he too will answer real slow or kind of come up with a weird answer and it's like, "whhhhhaaattt". He did tell me last night when I asked that yes, he still would like to continue drinking but he will cut back. The fact is I'm pretty sure I know what I need to do, I just don't want to hurt him or what if he can only drink a little and we will never have another bad experience again and I broke our family up? Or what if I should leave and show my daughter you shouldn't stay if your not happy and/or if there could be serious consequences down the road? So he told me again last night he feels as if I don't want to be with him and I freeze up. He says he just can't believe this is happening to us, after everything we've been through and I said me either. He doesn't grasp the severity of the things that happened for so many years and that it is hard for me to just forgive and act as though nothing bad ever happened. Anyway, thank you and have a great evening.


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## FamilyMan216

NotSure74 said:


> @Prodigal , I'm sorry, I don't know how I missed this message. Thank you for messaging me. I'm sorry about your husband, the loss and everything you went through. So I think we should have just gone to a regular marital counselor and not the pastor even though they are great, but even before I've read some of the threads I felt it was true that I am being pushed to tolerate him, find support but stay married and encourage him. I don't want to do that. At the counseling my husband said the first visit he was not a drunk or an alcoholic and no-one ever said he was. I've never even called him either. I don't know if he doesn't actually get certain questions being asked but he too will answer real slow or kind of come up with a weird answer and it's like, "whhhhhaaattt". He did tell me last night when I asked that yes, he still would like to continue drinking but he will cut back. The fact is I'm pretty sure I know what I need to do, I just don't want to hurt him or what if he can only drink a little and we will never have another bad experience again and I broke our family up? Or what if I should leave and show my daughter you shouldn't stay if your not happy and/or if there could be serious consequences down the road? So he told me again last night he feels as if I don't want to be with him and I freeze up. He says he just can't believe this is happening to us, after everything we've been through and I said me either. He doesn't grasp the severity of the things that happened for so many years and that it is hard for me to just forgive and act as though nothing bad ever happened. Anyway, thank you and have a great evening.


You do understand that only you can make yourself truly happy? That is never the job of your spouse. He is in your life to encourage you to be happy. If he can't provide that then you know what's best. Just why you got married in the first place


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## NotSure74

FamilyMan216 said:


> You do understand that only you can make yourself truly happy? That is never the job of your spouse. He is in your life to encourage you to be happy. If he can't provide that then you know what's best. Just why you got married in the first place


Yes, I do understand that now more than ever as I’m older and now have self worth. He has not encouraged me to be happy, but as I said in my intro; I was an enabler so all that was done, all that history is on me and me alone. I had no self esteem. I just wanted to be loved and he’s the first person to love me and I loved him. Before marriage we were on the same page. I thought we wanted the same things. Thank you for the reminder.


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## FamilyMan216

NotSure74 said:


> Yes, I do understand that now more than ever as I’m older and now have self worth. He has not encouraged me to be happy, but as I said in my intro; I was an enabler so all that was done, all that history is on me and me alone. I had no self esteem. I just wanted to be loved and he’s the first person to love me and I loved him. Before marriage we were on the same page. I thought we wanted the same things. Thank you for the reminder.


Well the best way to make a man change is if he feels threatened that you'll leave. If he loves you he'll wake up. If not, then you have your answer. Sometimes things happen in life as a test to see if you really appreciate your blessings


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## aine

FamilyMan216 said:


> Well the best way to make a man change is if he feels threatened that you'll leave. If he loves you he'll wake up. If not, then you have your answer. Sometimes things happen in life as a test to see if you really appreciate your blessings


@NotSure74 please go to AlAnon and join Sober Recovery.com. An alcoholic (if he is one) will say all sorts of things you want to hear and being a woman who loves him, will take it at face value. Please please listen to me when I say, never trust a word coming from his mouth, just look at his actions. If the actions don't match proceed to get yourself and your kids help and consider separation from him. He will promise you the earth but it won'd change much if he thinks you are just throwing around idle threats, why should he change, he will put up with your 'nagging.' Alcoholics are like cheaters, they follow the same script.Take action now, work on yourself and your kids, leave the marriage aside and tell him to get himself therapy or counselling , go AA etc. Your pastor will tell you t stay and suck it up. It makes me angry to see the amount of damage well meaning religious folk do. In Ephesians 5:25 men are commanded to love their wive as Christ loves the church. Alcohol abuse, neglect, emotional abuse, doesn't fit into that and you are not expected to put up with it.


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## sunsetmist

NotSure74 said:


> The fact is I'm pretty sure I know what I need to do, I just don't want to hurt him or what if he can only drink a little and we will never have another bad experience again and I broke our family up? Or what if I should leave and show my daughter you shouldn't stay if your not happy and/or if there could be serious consequences down the road? So he told me again last night he feels as if I don't want to be with him and I freeze up. He says he just can't believe this is happening to us, after everything we've been through and I said me either. He doesn't grasp the severity of the things that happened for so many years and that it is hard for me to just forgive and act as though nothing bad ever happened


Listen to @aine. And others. Al Anon (and Al Teen) will address these what if questions rumbling through your head. Other families have experienced this self-questioning/doubt and can advise you wisely. They, too, have lived where you are. It is normal to be in hopeful limbo. Make no impetuous decisions until you get experienced professional support.


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## NotSure74

FamilyMan216 said:


> Well the best way to make a man change is if he feels threatened that you'll leave. If he loves you he'll wake up. If not, then you have your answer. Sometimes things happen in life as a test to see if you really appreciate your blessings


I left and he got scared so he went to marriage counseling. Maybe I’m expecting too much too fast but we’ve been going. Before we went he said he’d stop drinking and now he’s told the pastor he’ll try and he told me he still wants to drink. I don’t think he’s willing to give it up. I will soon find out.


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## Openminded

Not many ever manage to give up drinking entirely. Some want to but can’t and some don’t really want to. The future is obviously unknown but I wouldn’t put a lot of stock in what an alcoholic says because promises get broken. What he does — and continues to do — is what matters. Only you can decide whether it’s better to stay or better to go.


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## FamilyMan216

NotSure74 said:


> I left and he got scared so he went to marriage counseling. Maybe I’m expecting too much too fast but we’ve been going. Before we went he said he’d stop drinking and now he’s told the pastor he’ll try and he told me he still wants to drink. I don’t think he’s willing to give it up. I will soon find out.


Don't focus so much on the drinking, but more on how his behavior is. Cutting the drinking down drastically would still be a huge change. It's the excessive drinking that's the issue. Just remember you control you and only you.


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## Prodigal

@NotSure74 - I'd suggest you rethink how you are looking at this situation. Replace "what if?" with "what IS." What you have on your hands is a man who has issues with alcohol. He may be an alcoholic, he may not. Regardless, YOU have a problem with his drinking, so it's a problem.


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## Beach123

Based on your post #30 - he doesn’t intend to quit drinking.
He intends to try and control his drinking... and he expects to put his behavior into you to point out if he drinks too much. NO.CAN.DO

he needs to leave because he doesn’t get that his drinking at all...doesn’t work for you.

he’s not willing to get honest with himself and with you. It will never work until he gets honest.

this is NOT your work to do! And you shouldn’t stay with someone (anyone) who is causing concern/harm while drinking.

end it. End it knowing the work to DO is ONLY his to do!


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## NotSure74

Beach123 said:


> Based on your post #30 - he doesn’t intend to quit drinking.
> He intends to try and control his drinking... and he expects to put his behavior into you to point out if he drinks too much. NO.CAN.DO
> 
> he needs to leave because he doesn’t get that his drinking at all...doesn’t work for you.
> 
> he’s not willing to get honest with himself and with you. It will never work until he gets honest.
> 
> this is NOT your work to do! And you shouldn’t stay with someone (anyone) who is causing concern/harm while drinking.
> 
> end it. End it knowing the work to DO is ONLY his to do!


Thank you so much. We just had a really tough conversation. I have never been so honest in my life and I'm happy about that and sad for him. You're right. It's not my responsibility. Thank you


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## MattMatt

@NotSure74 I would advise you to maintain your sessions with your pastor and his wife.

I would, however, suggest that you arrange counselling with a family counsellor with expertise in dealing with the problems alcoholics cause their families.


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## Beach123

I suggest you leave if he any willing to quit drinking entirely.

I haven’t had a drink for 12-1/2 years. I wouldn’t expect anyone to stay with me for one single day if I’m drinking...it’s not right or fair to that person subjected to my behavior when I drink.

you don’t owe your pastor/family members answers to why you may leave. You owe it to your kids to feel safe and protected!

instead of marriage counseling get individual counseling. No one should stay when the behavior is unacceptable! NO ONE!

stop accepting his lies. You know he drank when he golfed. Just evidence he won’t offer you his truth!


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## NotSure74

Beach123 said:


> I suggest you leave if he any willing to quit drinking entirely.
> 
> I haven’t had a drink for 12-1/2 years. I wouldn’t expect anyone to stay with me for one single day if I’m drinking...it’s not right or fair to that person subjected to my behavior when I drink.
> 
> you don’t owe your pastor/family members answers to why you may leave. You owe it to your kids to feel safe and protected!
> 
> instead of marriage counseling get individual counseling. No one should stay when the behavior is unacceptable! NO ONE!
> 
> stop accepting his lies. You know he drank when he golfed. Just evidence he won’t offer you his truth!


Hi. I hadn't checked any responses because I've been off and on confused/miserable. We are still together. I have told him I do not love him, that I think I checked out mentally and he says he'll do anything he can to support me and wait for me to figure out how I feel about him. I told him I don't think I can love him again like I did when we were younger and he still doesn't get it. I don't know why I back down. Well, I do. I feel sorry for him. It makes me so sad when he says I broke his heart when I told him everything I did in front of the counselors. I tell him I don't want to hurt him but I'm not happy and he can't make me happy but he still stays and wants me to stay. I've said I'll get an apartment, I said I'll stay in the rental property we have when it's ready to go and he or I talk myself out of it because he gets scared. I know he just needs me to be present. I know our relationship is not healthy. I know my daughter is getting anxious since she realized he never stopped drinking. I have to be honest, if he stopped drinking completely, I still wouldn't want to be with him. How horrible of a person am I?


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## Beach123

No, you still move out! That’s what will make you happy and to feel safe - that’s what you do!

sit him down and spell it out! You can’t trust him anymore so there is no foundation for the marriage - so it’s over - it’s been over a long time ago.

be specific! Tell him you don’t feel safe with him - the kids aren’t safe and his drinking and lying are a huge problem - and it’s impossible for you to feel safe again.

Then get moved right away! Seriously, state your intentions and DO the action to support your words. Your kids need to be safe!


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## midatlanticdad

NotSure74 said:


> Hi. I hadn't checked any responses because I've been off and on confused/miserable. We are still together. I have told him I do not love him, that I think I checked out mentally and he says he'll do anything he can to support me and wait for me to figure out how I feel about him. I told him I don't think I can love him again like I did when we were younger and he still doesn't get it. I don't know why I back down. Well, I do. I feel sorry for him. It makes me so sad when he says I broke his heart when I told him everything I did in front of the counselors. I tell him I don't want to hurt him but I'm not happy and he can't make me happy but he still stays and wants me to stay. I've said I'll get an apartment, I said I'll stay in the rental property we have when it's ready to go and he or I talk myself out of it because he gets scared. I know he just needs me to be present. I know our relationship is not healthy. I know my daughter is getting anxious since she realized he never stopped drinking. I have to be honest, if he stopped drinking completely, I still wouldn't want to be with him. How horrible of a person am I?


not horrible at all. you need to understand that. the marriage is over, you should follow through. Don't enable him - you can care for him but don't enable. I grew up in an alcoholic family, 2 of my sibs are recovering addicts, and 1 is a full blown functioning alcoholic


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## NotSure74

midatlanticdad said:


> not horrible at all. you need to understand that. the marriage is over, you should follow through. Don't enable him - you can care for him but don't enable. I grew up in an alcoholic family, 2 of my sibs are recovering addicts, and 1 is a full blown functioning alcoholic


My therapist says I'm not ready to leave because I still love him, because I'm so worried about him. Why does there have to be so many things to figure out? Can't someone love someone and not want to be with them? I feel crazy.


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## NotSure74

NotSure74 said:


> My therapist says I'm not ready to leave because I still love him, because I'm so worried about him. Why does there have to be so many things to figure out? Can't someone love someone and not want to be with them? I feel crazy.


And, I'm sorry about your siblings, but glad 2 are recovered.


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## Openminded

Yes, plenty of people love the person they leave because the relationship doesn’t work. OTOH, plenty of people stay in dysfunctional relationships because of love. You’ll have to decide which camp you’re in.


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## Beach123

NotSure74 said:


> My therapist says I'm not ready to leave because I still love him, because I'm so worried about him. Why does there have to be so many things to figure out? Can't someone love someone and not want to be with them? I feel crazy.


never leave important decisions to a therapist! They aren’t always understanding everything you feel/experience!
If you want to end the marriage - then end it!


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