# Fair division?



## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

I have decided to divorce my wife after 15+ years of marriage due to irreconcilable differences. We have a ten year old child together.

I'm in my early 40s and heading toward the end of my government career and will have to retire in five years. Afterwards, I will have to go back to school and/or start a new career. I stayed in my job to support my wife and daughter despite it not being what I wanted to work with. I'm dreaming about finally being able to do something I want to do. The chance of follow my dream career instead of being a low-level bureaucrat in some stuffy government agency.

My wife have just started her teaching career at the age of 40. The first ten years I allowed her to follow her dreams of starting up her own business (failed) and getting a couple of college degrees. She have three degrees now (two Bachelors, one Master) in addition to her teaching certificate). She wants to pursue a certification for Elementary School Principal.

I'm the only one who have been able to save up money and get some retirement benefits. I have a College Education fund worth $75,000, a future government retirement worth $30,000 annually, and $75,000 in a private retirement fund.

I would like to offer my wife the following: 

1. Transfer my college education fund ($75,000) to our child.
2. Transfer 66% ($50,000) of my private retirement fund to my wife.
3. Pay for my wife's Elementary School Principal certification (cost $5,000-$10,000)

I think that would leave my wife in a pretty good position in life. A good career, a decent retirement fund, and not having to worry about financing her child's college education.

My wife, on the other hand, has said that she wants the following:

1. Transfer my college education fund ($75,000) to our child.
2. Transfer 50% ($37,500) of my private retirement fund to my wife.
3. Give up 50% ($15,000 annually) of my government retirement to my wife.

I think her demand puts me in a very difficult position. I can't go back to college or attempt to start my dream career with only $15,000 a year in expected retirement from the government. Especially NOT if I have no college fund left. 

It makes me almost want to quit my government job right now and start using my college fund to pursue my dream career. Why waste another minute on this dead-end career with little reward when I can pursue my dreams instead? That would unfortunately leave our child without a college fund.

I think my offer will leave both of us (and our child) in a pretty good position for our future lives while her offer only seems to serve her interests and leaves me up the creek without a paddle.

What do you think? Are my offer the most reasonable or is it my wife's?

I did not include the house or our personal property. She can have all of it if she assumes the bills. It's not worth fighting for.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Your wife's proposal is an even division of assets. Whether you can "follow your dream" after isn't really her issue. 

Since the two of you are apparently able to discuss things, why not sign up for a mediator? They will be able to give you a good indicator of what would be considered "fair" in your jurisdiction, if things ended up going to court.

C


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

It's not a completely "even division". My college education fund is a personal benefit that she has no legal right to and the court can't touch. I can voluntary transfer it a child or wife if I don't want to use it for myself. I have also studied up on our marital division rules for our state.

If I divorced her today she would (most likely) only be entitled to:

1. 50% ($37,500) of my private retirement fund
2. 33% ($10,000 annually) of my government retirement (if I work five more years and reach retirement age)

I would keep:

1. 100% ($75,000) of my college education fund.
2. 50% ($37,500) of my private retirement fund.
3. 66% ($20,000 annually) of my government retirement.

It's actually more economical beneficial for me to be an jackass instead of trying to reach a mutually beneficial agreement.

Heck! It would be most financially beneficial for me to quit my job today, divorce her, and go back to school and follow my own dreams. The only thing she get then (excluding child support) would be 50% ($37,500) from my private retirement fund and nothing else (no government retirement, no college education fund).

I'm trying to be fair, but I will not give up my future just to satisfy her desire for any single penny she think she can suck out of me.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

What about spousal support? Is that not a factor in your state? And if you divorce, providing for your children's education is often spelled out in the divorce agreement. How would that be handled in your state? 

And you quitting now means you forgoing 20k per year. Are you willing to give that up? Or are you just speaking out of spite if she doesn't give you what you want?

Personally, I think you should put aside the college fund for your child, and keep that off the table. Then offer her the 50% and 33% of the retirement funds that she's entitled to. Let her fund her education on her own. 

Speaking strictly as an impartial bystander...

C


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## southernsurf (Feb 22, 2013)

Not sure of your state if she gets a good lawyer she will get 1/2 of your list plus CS plus SS. Court doesn't care about your dream only the child. Did you find someone else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

PBear said:


> What about spousal support? Is that not a factor in your state?


Spousal support is not a factor in my state. We are also currently not too far apart on our annual income. She would have no problem supporting herself and her habits. Her earning potential is also much higher than mine especially once she finishes her school principal certification.



> And if you divorce, providing for your children's education is often spelled out in the divorce agreement. How would that be handled in your state?


It is my understanding that parents in our state has no legal responsibility to provide their children with a college education. 

An agreement about how to fund college for the children can be included in the divorce agreement if both parents agree upon the terms.



> And you quitting now means you forgoing 20k per year. Are you willing to give that up? Or are you just speaking out of spite if she doesn't give you what you want?


I'm not growing any younger and "time is money". I'm already now borderline too old for a new career. If I didn't have my full government retirement and my college education money, I would probably be pushing 50 before I can even start my dream career. It would therefore be better for me to just cut my loses now and start pursuing my dreams immediately.

I also dislike my current job. That should I suffer through another five years of non-existent job satisfaction for such a little reward. I might lose money but at least I would be happier doing something I love to do.



> Personally, I think you should put aside the college fund for your child, and keep that off the table. Then offer her the 50% and 33% of the retirement funds that she's entitled to. Let her fund her education on her own.


I just don't see how I would be able to finance my own education if I did that. It would not be fair to expect me to take out massive student loans to do so. The college education fund was something given to me personally by the US government for giving up some of the best years of my life in the defense of the country and for doing two combat tours.

The original deal with my wife was that I would support her for the first part of our marriage so she can finish her education and try to get her business off the grounds. Afterwards she was going to support me while I was finishing my education and pursue my dream career. I kept my part of the bargain, but now I will not get my own opportunity to get the education I want.

I don't think it is fair that my wife want to have her cake and eat it too. I already paid for two of her college degrees, so why should I be the only one responsible for paying for our child's college education? If I have to get student loans to pay for mine own, I basically would have had to pay for a total of four college degrees while she didn't have to pay for a single one of them (her parents paid for the very first one).


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

southernsurf said:


> Not sure of your state if she gets a good lawyer she will get 1/2 of your list plus CS plus SS. Court doesn't care about your dream only the child.


No court or lawyer would be able give her half of my college education fund. According to Federal law it is mine and mine alone unless I voluntary transfer it to a family member. No court can order that to be done.

Our state do not do spousal support.

She could potentially be entitled to up to about 33% of my future government retirement if we divorced to day. It could be made less by court order, but not more.



> Did you find someone else?


No, but I would like to have the opportunity to do so.

I have had enough of her emotional neglect.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Well, I've given my $0.02 worth, based on what you've said. Sorry it's not what you want to hear. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

MickeyD said:


> I would like to offer my wife the following:
> 
> 1. Transfer my college education fund ($75,000) to our child.
> 2. Transfer 66% ($50,000) of my private retirement fund to my wife.
> ...


I think you can show that her degrees achieved during marriage is an asset similar to your government retirement being an asset. Tell her you want 15k of her higher income which is only possible due to your investment in her college.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You have not yet qualified for the government pension, if you left the job tomorrow you wouldn’t receive the benefit. If you stayed longer than 5 years at the job the assumption would be that the yearly pension benefit would have a larger payout each year. 

You haven’t earned the benefit yet so it really cant be figured for allocation I don’t believe. You cant be forced to stay at a job just to hold on long enough to receive a benefit so it can be divided. 

If you stay the 5 years and retire your pension now becomes your income, with her degrees she will be making more than you I don’t think she will stand much of a chance in the court system to get access to that.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Well you're splitting up due to "irreconcilable differences". In my opinion you need a lawyer due to "irreconcilable differences" as well.

Amicable can wait until you're officially divorced.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I still think a mediator familiar with your jurisdiction's laws is the way to go.

C


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Keep your government job and go to school in an online program during your free time. Many reputable universities have flexible adult learning programs and even some very good ones. Depending on your degree, you can often complete the whole thing online. Even if you must or want to attend your core curriculum on campus you can position yourself to have more than half your program completed before you retire.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

I also suggest a mediator and stop trying to work a deal on your own. Believe me, you think the other person is going to be fair and logical. This goes out with the window with divorce. 

You are not obliged to put in any settlement agreement how you plan to fund your daughter's college education. I suggest you leave that out. You can contribute whatever you need to at the time.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

You're going to have to get over the "what I paid for during the marriage". No one held a gun to your head to pay for her degrees so its just one of those things you do when your married that you wish you could maybe take back.

Also, you may have plans to do things in the future, but those plans are not your STBX financial responsibility. You look at the marital property and you make an equitable division. Often that's 50-50, but if her earning capacity based on her current employment is higher than your earning capacity based on your current employment, then it is equitable that she will receive less than 50%.

What about child support? Have you two resolved that. Unless there is equal custody someone has to pay.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

honcho said:


> You have not yet qualified for the government pension, if you left the job tomorrow you wouldn’t receive the benefit. If you stayed longer than 5 years at the job the assumption would be that the yearly pension benefit would have a larger payout each year.
> 
> You haven’t earned the benefit yet so it really cant be figured for allocation I don’t believe. You cant be forced to stay at a job just to hold on long enough to receive a benefit so it can be divided.
> 
> If you stay the 5 years and retire your pension now becomes your income, with her degrees she will be making more than you I don’t think she will stand much of a chance in the court system to get access to that.


:iagree::iagree:

If you haven't earned the pension yet all she can get is a piece of what it's current value is. As for the rest you know your Stbx better than us only you know if she will be difficult.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Wow. Actually, it doesn't sound like she is the difficult one.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Based on personal experience, being generous in your offer leads to greed and a weak negotiating position. I'd suggest offering the minimum legally reasonable amount. Once everything is final, you could voluntarily transfer the education fund or part of it.

I think there is also precedent to claim part of her future earnings, as you sacrificed for her education to enable her career. I believe in the past, med students would marry to have the support and funding of their wife, then divorce her for someone "better" once they established a practice. Often, those wives were entitled to some of his future earnings.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Based on personal experience, being generous in your offer leads to greed and a weak negotiating position. I'd suggest offering the minimum legally reasonable amount. Once everything is final, you could voluntarily transfer the education fund or part of it.
> 
> I think there is also precedent to claim part of her future earnings, as you sacrificed for her education to enable her career. I believe in the past, med students would marry to have the support and funding of their wife, then divorce her for someone "better" once they established a practice. Often, those wives were entitled to some of his future earnings.


I have to agree why let your Stbx know the most your are willing to give. I would just offer the minimum and work it from there.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

I doubt this will help but when it comes to civil issues like divorce most states require an equitable division of assets. Equitable usually means "fair" not necessarily equal. 

As such when leaving the division up to a judge if both parties feel the judgement was unfair - then most likely it was fair.


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## Pictureless (May 21, 2013)

I would not discuss anything with her. You are divorcing; she is not your friend.

The wheel turns quick...protect yourself.

You said you are a federal employee? If the court orders a division of your Thrift Savings Plan (if you have one) it could present a problem for you financially. Spouses have rights under federal regulations. You need to consult with a lawyer.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

MickeyD said:


> An agreement about how to fund college for the children can be included in the divorce agreement if both parents agree upon the terms.


If the divorce is litigated, you'd be surprised at what a court might compel you to do. My divorce trial ended after 3 days. The judge took both attorneys into chambers and strongly advised them to convince their clients to take the deal he was "recommending". If either me or my now exwife refused the offer and the judge had to make a ruling, one of us would have gotten shafted. In that deal was an "agreement" that we would both contribute to our child's college education, among other things. On paper, we "agreed" but it's not really voluntary if you know what I mean. Don't assume anything. 



MickeyD said:


> It would therefore be better for me to just cut my loses now and start pursuing my dreams immediately.


If you quit your job prior to the divorce a case could be made that you are voluntarily unemployed and the court could impute income for the purpose of child support. In other words you could be ordered to pay support that you don't actually have. 



MickeyD said:


> The original deal with my wife was that I would support her for the first part of our marriage so she can finish her education and try to get her business off the grounds. Afterwards she was going to support me while I was finishing my education and pursue my dream career. I kept my part of the bargain, but now I will not get my own opportunity to get the education I want.


Your marriage went down the tubes. Forget all about any prior deals. It ain't gonna happen.



MickeyD said:


> I don't think it is fair that my wife want to have her cake and eat it too. I already paid for two of her college degrees, so why should I be the only one responsible for paying for our child's college education? If I have to get student loans to pay for mine own, I basically would have had to pay for a total of four college degrees while she didn't have to pay for a single one of them (her parents paid for the very first one).


Life ain't fair. You have yet to realize that you are going to take a huge financial hit and it may be difficult if not impossible to reach your intended goals. 

Divorce has a way of putting a wrench in plans like that.



MickeyD said:


> I think her demand puts me in a very difficult position. I can't go back to college or attempt to start my dream career with only $15,000 a year in expected retirement from the government.


She's probably entitled to half of the retirement funds that accrued during the marriage. It has nothing to do with whether or not you have enough left to go to college or do anything else. 

For you to think that what you want actually matters indicates that you are in a fair degree of denial. You need to be more realistic. It's not about what is convenient and what you think you need to accomplish your goals, it's about the divorce laws in your state. Nothing more.



Married but Happy said:


> Based on personal experience, being generous in your offer leads to greed and a weak negotiating position. I'd suggest offering the minimum legally reasonable amount. Once everything is final, you could voluntarily transfer the education fund or part of it.


^^This. Your original offer was probably too generous. Especially in regard to handing the whole $75k over to the kids. Now she can work up from there, knowing the minimum you are willing to give. Unfortunately it's too late, you've already played your hand. 

All you can do now is pull back to the trenches and hand the negotiating over to someone more qualified.


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

Thank you for responses. I apologize for not responding earlier, but I allowed my anxiety to get the best of me. I have had a lot of stress lately and I have a tendency to assume the worst. I thought that would be ripped apart for not being fair to my wife. I will take your advise into consideration. Thank you. 

This whole thing scares me to be honest. I have high-functioning autism and I have until now relied on my wife to take care of my finances (even after we separated). That's probably not the smartest thing, but I'm not sure I can keep track on all the monthly bills. Setting auto-payments only gets you that far.

I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to support myself in the future. I have limited work opportunities, so I really need to get a job that I know that I can handle. While I'm quite intelligent academically, I'm significantly impaired when it comes to social skills and I lack "streets smarts". 

I'm over my head at my current job. I somehow managed to get myself promoted to a higher pay grade and a leadership position that I'm probably ill suited for. I was really good at my previous assignment (independent work, very detail oriented, and highly predictable). This new assignment might be too much for me. How can I lead effectively when I have no real social skills?


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

Unfortunately, what you and I think is fair don't count for much. The law in your state usually is the determining factor. Usually they split them down the middle and then each of you can do what you want with your share of the money. Personally, I lost in the short run, but she lost big time in the long run financially speaking. In all other areas I won big time!!!


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

I probably should be the one asking for spousal support from her (but I will not). She got considerable higher future earning potential while I have already peaked. People with my condition do very poorly on the job market. About 85% remain unemployed for life and dependent on government disability.


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## angel kate (Sep 13, 2014)

I think you can show that her degrees achieved during marriage is an asset similar to your government retirement being an asset. Tell her you want 15k of her higher income which is only possible due to your investment in her college.


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