# Very angry - am I right to be?



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Will try and keep it brief, am wondering if I am justified in feeling angry and/or how I can handle this constructively...

Married since March. Been with hubz five years. Four kids. Older two are mine from a previous relationship aged 8 and 6. Then me and hubz have two biological kids aged 3 and 2. All kids reside with us.

We were discussing a holiday for next year. Hubz has been going away for years every September with his best friend and wife, and best friend's family who he is close to. I was invited when we first got together and have gone most years since. This has been our annual "couple" holiday where the kids stay with relatives.

I was discussing booking for next year. Hubz says he wants to bring the younger two as his best friend and wife have just had a baby and will be bringing baby with them.

I say this isn't fair to exclude the older two. He says as their dad has said he will be taking them away for a week earlier in the year then they'll have had a holiday already.

I say can't he see how incredibly unfair this will appear to the older two? We have not so far had a family holiday yet and I think excluding my older two and going with just "our" two is really quite cruel.

I should outline that hubz has had difficulties dealing with my older two. He provides materially and is fine with this but finds the emotional side difficult and I feel he is at times resentful that he doesn't have the perfect family unit.

Hubz says that he is just telling me how he feels and what he wants. Which is fair enough. But I have to also deal with caring for my two as part of the family unit and I feel this would just be excluding them and doing more harm than good.

There is more to the argument in that I considered that holiday to be our couples holiday for just me and him, which it always was until now. He has said he will now take the boys on holiday then and me and him can go away earlier in the year for our anniversary. This is also a bone of contention as he will only go for a long weekend for this yet is perfectly happy to go away in September for a week he says because it is firther to travel. But for the sake of two or three hours I can't see it makes that much difference.

I am pretty angry with him right now and not sure where to go with this. Any thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I think you're right, it reminds my of a horrible old Aunt of mine who would only send cards and presents to the kids in 'her family' and not the two from the previous marriage

You are a whole package and he knew that when he married you. To exclude the older two is totally beyond my comprehension


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

When he married you, he married your children, too. Whether he likes it or not, he has a duty to treat them as his own.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Yes.

You are.

I can't stand this sort of pettiness.

They're kids.

He needs to grow up.

It's going to be a very LONG marriage...(not to mention a very damaging family life for you two older kids) if your husband decides to draw a circle around "HIS" family/kids and "YOUR" _other_ kids

You can't tolerate this behavior.


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> When he married you, he married your children, too. Whether he likes it or not, he has a duty to treat them as his own.


I don't think he has an obligation to treat them as his own when they are clearly not, however he does have a moral duty to treat them with just as much respect and compassion as he does with his biological children.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Kronk said:


> I don't think he has an obligation to treat them as his own when they are clearly not, however he does have a moral duty to treat them with just as much respect and compassion as he does with his biological children.


We'll have to disagree on this one. I firmly believe that while they aren't his "own" and he will have to make concessions for their biological parent, he should have evaluated his ability to make them part of his family before he married and has to commit to doing so now. If his own child was born with a difficult physical condition, would he exclude the child from the family over it? He has no right to do so to her children either now that they're married. He has a duty to do his best to find reasons to love them just like he has a duty to his wife when they're having difficulties.


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> We'll have to disagree on this one. I firmly believe that while they aren't his "own" and he will have to make concessions for their biological parent, he should have evaluated his ability to make them part of his family before he married and has to commit to doing so now. If his own child was born with a difficult physical condition, would he exclude the child from the family over it? He has no right to do so to her children either now that they're married.


I am not saying he should exclude them from the family unit. 

I raised my son from the time he was 5 months old and never expected any of my partners to treat him as their own, I did however expect that he be treated with kindness and respect.

Being a step parent is a very hard gig to take on. You are expected to treat someone else's child as your own but to have no say in how they are raised, disciplined etc.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, I'd be upset too. I'd let him take the little ones and I'd stay home with the older ones. My family is blended and if H treated our older daughter (my bio daughter) like that, I'd be livid...and she would be hurt.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Kronk said:


> Being a step parent is a very hard gig to take on. You are expected to treat someone else's child as your own but to have no say in how they are raised, disciplined etc.


And this is where our beliefs parted ways. I've had a total of five "stepchildren" - three in marriage and two from a long-term relationship that didn't culminate in marriage. I have also remarried after having children. I think that both adults *must* have a say in discipline and values in order to have a good family unit. It might be hard to feel love, but without being receptive, an adult is neglecting his or her role in the new family.


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> And this is where our beliefs parted ways. I've had a total of five "stepchildren" - three in marriage and two from a long-term relationship that didn't culminate in marriage. I have also remarried after having children. I think that both adults *must* have a say in discipline and values in order to have a good family unit. It might be hard to feel love, but without being receptive, an adult is neglecting his or her role in the new family.


The problem though is that the child generally has another parent that has a say in how that child is raised ( as is their right)
What do they say about 3 being a crowd?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree with the OP. if the younger two go so should the entire family


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Thanks. 

My feelings are like Kronk. It has taken a lot of soul-searching to arrive at that point, but I agree that I don't expect him to treat them as his own. Now we have children together, I think it has grown a gap between "my" kids and "our" kids and he says he simply cannot feel the same. I understand the sentiment. I do feel however like Kathy said that he should (and does) have a say in their upbringing as regards things like discipline. I have told him that I feel his role is that of a positive male role model.

He isn't expected to be dad, as they have a dad who they see every other week. However he is an important figure in their lives who really has a massive influence on them, though I don't think he appreciates this.

He is good at disciplining them... But most of the time it seems that is pretty much all he ever does. Tell them off. I have for a while been talking about a family holiday. He says when they're all older. I can understand waiting until the littlest is a year or two older to take them all away as it *will* make things easier. But to then say he wants me, him and the littlest two to go away and not take the oldest two because "they'll have already had a holiday"? That's just mean. It's not their fault me and their dad split up. Hubz should be pleased their dad wants to take them away, not then effectively punish them for it by denying them a family holiday.

He is, I think, being childish now by saying he'll take the littlest ones away on that September holiday. We'd been talking about it for months, it was never pinpointed as a family holiday as it never has been for us. He mentioned casually taking the boys but that was never the plan when we discussed it. The icing on the cake is that he is adamant that the long weekend we planned away in March for our anniversary cannot be any longer (as the only time now we will get away together in the year) and that I am somehow weird to think I should be able to plan a child-free holiday with four kids. Fact is I think couple time is important, and even more important with so many kids, and we have a lot of relatives who will help out if we need it. He is just being petty by saying this.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Let me turn the situation a bit. In the future when the older kids have gifts from their father and your husband wants to give gifts, will you ask him to give all the kids the same? Effectively doubling the gifts of the older? If that fair for the younger?

I think women often have this unrealistic expectation that their new partners will somehow adopt their kids for real, as their own. Although it sometimes happen, i think it is an exception.

Also, they expect their new husbands to accept the kids as their own but often, when it comes to discipline and education the stepfather is often overruled or ignored. 

You may have to come to terms with the fact that your husband will never see your kids as his. Because they are not. Mainly, biologically, they are in the way. Evolution doesn't reward quality stepfathers. Evolution does reward stepfathers who manage to remove stepkids as fast as possible. 

Personally i would not be with a woman with kids from a previous relationship for a multitude of reasons. But some guys bite that bullet. Although many end up dealing with the situation in a poor fashion, like your husband is doing.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I've had a few conversations with people on topics like the gifts. And it has never changed my mind. The kids are not all the same. They are individuals and life gives some people things others don't have. For instance, my stepdaughter's mother was absent from her life for years and her own stepsiblings had both parents in their lives. Big deal! 

The fact that they have a certain amount of love or items from others doesn't mean an adult should withdraw themselves from contributing to that INDIVIDUAL relationship. 

The way I see it, I'm a "trusted adult" in my stepchildren's lives. I am not their biological parent, but I'm a person who offers love, guidance, and sometimes discipline - in that order. A person isn't limited to loving only their biological offspring. If they cannot love non-biological offspring just as they would their own children, they have no business marrying a person who has children.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> If they cannot love non-biological offspring just as they would their own children, they have no business marrying a person who has children.


I fully agree with that. Only, if everyone actually lived by that rule, people with kids from previous relationships would probably never marry again.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

costa200 said:


> Let me turn the situation a bit. In the future when the older kids have gifts from their father and your husband wants to give gifts, will you ask him to give all the kids the same? Effectively doubling the gifts of the older? If that fair for the younger?
> 
> I think women often have this unrealistic expectation that their new partners will somehow adopt their kids for real, as their own. Although it sometimes happen, i think it is an exception.
> 
> ...


If I understand the present thing rightly, then say you're talking about Christmas. Like Kathy said, it's a fact of life that the older two have a separate relationship with their father and will get more presents from that. It is inevitable that they will have things such as extra presents, holidays and days out that the younger two won't get.

At Christmas, I would expect that the kids from US as a couple would get the same amount of gifts. I wouldn't expect that he buy something major for the younger two without balancing it out somehow whether that be by him buying the older two something or me doing it to make it up.

I do get what you are saying though. 

Hubz isn't a substitute father (mentioned earlier in the thread.) The older two have their dad in their lives. Hubz has an equal say in discipline and does a lot of it.

We don't do a lot as a whole family but a holiday has been touted for a while. There is just no way I could leave the older ones to take the younger ones on a family holiday. I just can't justify it at all. Hubz I suspect knows he is being unfair in the bigger picture. I worry he will spend years feeling resentful and not making the best of what we have. I get a lot of, "you don't know what it feels like," and, "you don't know how hard it is" when he almost verges into martyr territory. 

I don't think it helps that some of his friend have said they don't know how he can do it (take on someone else's children, especially the fact that they are his friend's) and that they would never do it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Tobio, you really do trivialise your husband's values, what he believes in and how he thinks and feels about things.


Plus it's like you want to be married to a totally different man.


As ye sow so shall ye reap and all that. Don't expect him to take you seriously either.


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## NewM (Apr 11, 2012)

With gift thing,why should your husband give gifts to kids that aren't his while your ex wont,that is unfair to his kids.

Older 2 will be getting double the gifts all the time and younger ones will not feel good about that.

If you want it to be fair then let both of them give gifts to their own kids and you split your gifts equally.


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Can we focus a bit? Is this really about being "fair"? 1) Gifts should be given because the gifter wants to share something with the giftee. (Yes, i think i totally made up some new words). It's not about counting rations.  2) You take people on trips because you want to spend time with "loved ones". Think about it. Let's say my H and I want to take our parents on a trip. My parents go on 3 trips throughout the year; his go on one. My H and I go on two. Do i have to take his parents on both my trips and mine on one to make it equal? Does that even make sense? You take people with you because you want to share an experience with them, not to make things "fair".

The issue here is that the OP's H does not WANT to take her children on a holiday. This is what she is mad at. Does she have a right to be? Absolutely. She can be angry and disappointed. Does he have to feel anything for her children? It would be nice, but no. You can't force someone to love and care for another, it has to come from within. 

So OP, i get that you are hurt, angry and disappointed. But you can't guilt your H into having feelings for your children, at least not to the extent you expect. You two must accept where eachother is at or not (and then some real hard choices must follow). If you want your kids to go, then tell him. "I respect how you feel, and can't force you to care beyond what you do. But I'm not comfortable going with any of my children, unless i go with ALL of my children. I hope you can respect that."


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Bob, I have to heartily disagree that I trivialise hubz's feelings. In fact I have babied him with the children issue for far too long. He is an adult. My older two are children and I can see the effect this is having on them and potentially how it will shape them as adults. Their father is already showing he prefers his other son from his marriage, and they realise he is flaky and not fully committed to being in their lives. At the ages of 8 and 6 I cannot fathom what that must feel like.

I have gone a long way recently to working to understand how he must feel. It would be fabulous if he could do the same for me and the kids. I am not sure what you think I am trivialising? The fact is I will NOT let our family run based on the feelings I mention because it would be damaging to the older ones' emotional development. That has nothing to do with trivialising; it is called being a good and responsiblw parent. The fact is he has plenty of say; if anything I press him to be more involved so he doesn't feel marginalised.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Ina, he knows I will not go on a family holiday which excludes one third of the family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The fact of the matter is that this is a non optimal situation and will never be an optimal situation.

In quainter times, men and women married prior to having children. This was so that there was a proper period of time to ensure that you are making a good choice as a marital partner, and that you are making a good choice in a person to have a baby with and raise a child with.

But turning that on it side, Tobio has reduced her options. She had to marry her husband regardless of what kind of man he would be to her first two children becuase he was the father to her second two children. She did not have the luxury of evalutating.

But this is not all doom and gloom. What I think you have to do is accept that this is a non ideal situation. But there are many good and great things about it too for your first two children as well as your second two children. So there will be situations where your first two will get hurt. There will be situations where your second two get hurt because the first two get better presents. But what you have to manage is the OVERALL picture, and making sure that overall your children are better with the set up you have vs some other situation. And some things you have to let go in the best interest of the big picture, since your situation is not typical.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

costa200 said:


> Let me turn the situation a bit. In the future when the older kids have gifts from their father and your husband wants to give gifts, will you ask him to give all the kids the same? Effectively doubling the gifts of the older? If that fair for the younger?
> 
> I think women often have this unrealistic expectation that their new partners will somehow adopt their kids for real, as their own. Although it sometimes happen, i think it is an exception.
> 
> ...


Well, the other 2 don't live with the ex. They don't visit, etc. These kids are here in the home. It's not the same.

It's crap.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

NewM said:


> With gift thing,why should your husband give gifts to kids that aren't his while your ex wont,that is unfair to his kids.
> 
> Older 2 will be getting double the gifts all the time and younger ones will not feel good about that.
> 
> If you want it to be fair then let both of them give gifts to their own kids and you split your gifts equally.


Such crap! :rofl:

I have a daughter from a previous marriage. She lives with us full time and sees her father on breaks. He gives her gifts. So what? Maybe this Christmas we should only buy for our little daughter that is biologically my husband's!! Forgot our older daughter! She will get gifts the next week from her dad.

:rofl: Crap crap.

A family does things together. Vacation is one of those things. SO what if they visit their dad? My older daughter does everything with us. And she visits her dad. But you know what? My older kid says little A is wayyy lucky because her parents live together. Can't get fair with that! But I would NOT allow her to be treated like a second class citizen in her own home.

Thankfully, my husband loves her like his own. They always have time together and do things.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

tobio said:


> I get a lot of, "you don't know what it feels like," and, "you don't know how hard it is" when he almost verges into martyr territory.


What I'd do with this: 

Start getting to the heart of the matter. "So tell me how it is!" 
Listen well and without judging him.
Ask, "Why is that important to you?" for whatever he's protecting until you get to the core issue, and gently confront the core issue.

It'll be hard for me to come up with this because I've never been in a position where I can relate to him, but here goes: 

HIM: "You don't get it!" 
ME: "You're right. I don't. Please tell me what is important to you about treating your own children with more love than mine." 
HIM: "I don't know. They're part of me and I have a bigger bond with them because of it." 
ME: "So is it that you feel like you must treat them more special because they're a part of you?"
HIM: "Yeah, sort of." 
ME: "It sounds like it's important of you to treat yourself and yours better than other people for some reason. Why is that?" 
HIM: "Well, other people betray and hurt you. If you can't count on your real family, who can you trust?" 
ME: "So trust is important to you?" 
HIM: "Yeah. It's hard to be able to trust other people." 
ME: "So is it important to you to teach your children to be able to trust?" 
HIM: "Yeah. I want them to be happy." 
ME: "Is it important for children to feel happy and be able to trust their caregivers?" 
HIM: "Sure it is. If they don't have someone they can love and trust, they'll have problems later." 
ME: "Well, I'm glad to see we believe the same things. That's why I'm asking you to provide that for all of the children in our household. I need your support in raising my children to have ample love and trust in their lives, too."


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

I guess I married well to a man who not only treats my son as his own, but he got custody of his first wife's daughter and raised her as his own as well. Even after divorcing, my (our) son goes to his dads house and is treated the same. Makes me want to hug my ex husband at times. We're actually looking into him adopting him in case something was to ever happen to me.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I would say NO kids go on the trip. The whole point of it is a couples holiday. I understand wanting to take a baby (harder to get a sitter) but by next September the baby will be how old???

Stick to the original plan. The other couple can bring their baby if they feel it's necessary.... but none of your kids go.

Otherwise, it's no longer a couples holiday. It's a family retreat, and everybody goes. Period.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Well surprisingly the older three are quite understanding of the situation. Child 3 knows their siblings visit their dad and that they get presents and go to places with dad. Of course on the weekends the older two are away we do stuff with the younger two and they know grandad is only the younger two's grandad and so on.

Kathy I appreciate your post. I really think though that I get already what is going on and I believe I have for some time. He is simply resentful that I had kids before we met. I believe this resentment has manifested in all kinds of areas without him actively realising. I think he has witheld a lot from me in a passive-aggressive way. 

Like Hicks said, I think it is making the best of it. I don't want to sideline hubz's feelings because it wouldn't be fair. Hubz does contribute in a way that feels comfortable to him, and that is financially and practically which I appreciate a lot. It is also true that hubz feels more comfortable conversing with child 2 who was a baby when we got together. The eldest he just doesn't know how to handle. It is a real shame as my eldest is a lovely child who used to try to reach out to him but doesn't anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

tobio said:


> Will try and keep it brief, am wondering if I am justified in feeling angry and/or how I can handle this constructively...
> 
> Married since March. Been with hubz five years. Four kids. Older two are mine from a previous relationship aged 8 and 6. Then me and hubz have two biological kids aged 3 and 2. All kids reside with us.
> 
> ...


Thoughts are...WOW! I'm a Father of 2 kids who live with their mom most of the time, and with me, my wife and our youngest the rest of the time.

Here's the benefit for kids coming from a broken home...They get two of everything. THAT'S IT!! The rest of the package SUCKS for them.

What your husband is saying is the two older aren't equally in your family. What one child gets, ALL children get.

In our house, each kid has their own space equally. Even though my two older kids are only with us 2 weekends a month. It's still THEIR ROOM. We raise the 3 children as everyone is an equal brother/sister. If my wife and I have another, no one will differentiate between what kind of brother or sister they are. They're all equal and equally part of the family. The amount of TIME they spend in the house doesn't dictate their level of quality within the family.

Also, what your two older children's father does for them is 100% irrelevant to what you do. All that's doing is saying their father loves them more than you two do. Your husband needs to talk to someone because he's separating the kids and that's not fair. My wife, early on, struggled a little about the issue of marrying a man with 2 children posed and HER mother summed it up best. "Do you love him? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with him? Well you don't just marry him, you marry his children too. They are a package. The things you're struggling with are the VERY things you'll adore about him if you have children. But don't you dare treat those children any less than if they were your own, because then you're not just rejecting them, you're rejecting a part of him. I raised you better than that". (PS I LOVE my MIL :smthumbup So your husband married a package. He needs to live up to HIS promise to your two older kids. He promised to love them as his own when he proposed to YOU!! He also proposed to them.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

tobio said:


> Bob, I have to heartily disagree that I trivialise hubz's feelings.


There you go, straight into denial.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

AFEH said:


> There you go, straight into denial.


Oh no. Thing is Bob, I just don't think his feelings are trivial. I do think he should man up and deal with what he has in front of him. He is a fully-functioning adult and he has a moral obligation to care for our children even if he finds it difficult. He knew my children would be part of the package and unfortunately he can't have the two family units and separate the kids out when he feels like it. I can't pander to that because it is so highly dysfunctional, there are all sorts of long-term effects that is going to have on ALL the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I'd be interested to hear your advice actually Bob.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I guess I married well to a man who not only treats my son as his own, but he got custody of his first wife's daughter and raised her as his own as well. Even after divorcing, my (our) son goes to his dads house and is treated the same. Makes me want to hug my ex husband at times. We're actually looking into him adopting him in case something was to ever happen to me.


After my mom and step dad divorced, I was STILL his child and was very close to him.


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## Caro (Nov 11, 2012)

I grew up in a blended family, so I am intimately aware of how the kids can perceive these kinds of things. I have 3 points to make:

1) Your husband seems to want to say that all that matters is that the kids get a vacation (with their bio dad is fine with him). What he is failing to see is that HE needs to take them on a vacation (if he takes the younger) because they have a separate relationship with him than with their bio dad. His relationship with them needs nurturing, or at least not the exclusion/distancing of leaving them behind. This could be psychologically damaging to them.

2) Your husband's emotional connection (or lack thereof) to your older children has to come from him, and you'll just have to learn to accept that. HOWEVER, when you two agreed to blend your family, he did take on a responsibility for your older children's well being. That extends beyond just bringing home a paycheck and participating in discipline. It also extends to helping them grow up into well-adjusted adults. That means TREATING them as equals with the younger children. He may not CARE for them but he can TREAT them equally. If he takes the younger out for ice cream, he has to take the older, too. If he takes the younger on vacation, he has to take the older, too.

3) Treating them equally doesn't necessarily mean treating them identically. He could take the younger kids to ice cream and the older kids to pizza - if that is what they would prefer. Similarly, he could take the younger kids on this vacation and the older kids on another vacation, but BOTH vacations should come from him, or else he isn't treating them equally and that could be damaging.

I agree with other posters that none of the kids should go on the vacation. Then they're all being treated equally, and you get your couple's vacation.


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

Ok let me put a different twist on it.
I have had a step mother since I was 7, she never treated me as her own but rather as a friend, a confidante and with respect. My Stepie and my father had another child when I was 8. I never thought of her as my mother, never treated her like my mother nor ever wanted her to be my mother. 35 years later, she is still my friend, still my confidante and still treats me with respect and look out if you say a word against me. 
If my dad ever stepped out of line he would be the one kicked out of the family, in the end though I can say that I was never treated as her own but I did get the key ingredients which are friendship and respect.
It taught me a huge lesson on how to treat other people and it was taught by a wonderful woman


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

that_girl said:


> A family does things together. Vacation is one of those things. SO what if they visit their dad? My older daughter does everything with us. And she visits her dad. But you know what? My older kid says little A is wayyy lucky because her parents live together. Can't get fair with that! But I would NOT allow her to be treated like a second class citizen in her own home.


This. My kids are half with their dad and half with me, and they sometimes talk about the bonus of a 'double christmas' but I guarantee it doesn't make up for them not having their parents together. Its just the smallest silver lining on a crappy situation.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Here's the benefit for kids coming from a broken home...They get two of everything. THAT'S IT!! The rest of the package SUCKS for them.


...even more succinct.


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