# Inviting ex-wife for Christmas dinner



## phraven

Does anyone spend Christmas with their ex? Is that a crazy, illogical idea?

I brought the idea up with my wife and she said no. So maybe that's the answer I'm looking for.

The thing is, my ex-wife doesn't get to see the kids on Christmas. I have the kids for their winter break (December 20-January 6) because that's what they chose. This will be the fourth year in a row of that. I don't know what my ex-wife's Christmas plans are but she doesn't have any family and she isn't in a relationship. As far as I know she hasn't had a relationship since our divorce. She may not even want to come over but I keep thinking I should invite her.

Like I said, my wife is not open to the idea. I respect my wife's decisions and feelings but on this one she didn't give it a second of thought before making a decision, and it's for my kids too. They SHOULD be seeing their mom on Christmas. They don't have a great relationship with their mom. So maybe it's guilt driving this idea to spend Christmas together.

Is this a crazy idea that I should drop? Or do I push my wife on it more? I won't invite my ex-wife without my wife giving the okay but I'd at least like her to hear my out, unless I'm the idiot for thinking this in the first place and should shut up about it.


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## MattMatt

The kids dont't want to spend time with her? They have a reason. Ask them what it is.


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## Andy1001

phraven said:


> Does anyone spend Christmas with their ex? Is that a crazy, illogical idea?
> 
> I brought the idea up with my wife and she said no. So maybe that's the answer I'm looking for.
> 
> The thing is, my ex-wife doesn't get to see the kids on Christmas. I have the kids for their winter break (December 20-January 6) because that's what they chose. This will be the fourth year in a row of that. I don't know what my ex-wife's Christmas plans are but she doesn't have any family and she isn't in a relationship. As far as I know she hasn't had a relationship since our divorce. She may not even want to come over but I keep thinking I should invite her.
> 
> Like I said, my wife is not open to the idea. I respect my wife's decisions and feelings but on this one she didn't give it a second of thought before making a decision, and it's for my kids too. They SHOULD be seeing their mom on Christmas. They don't have a great relationship with their mom. So maybe it's guilt driving this idea to spend Christmas together.
> 
> Is this a crazy idea that I should drop? Or do I push my wife on it more? I won't invite my ex-wife without my wife giving the okay but I'd at least like her to hear my out, unless I'm the idiot for thinking this in the first place and should shut up about it.


Keep bringing up meeting your ex wife to your current wife.
Pretty soon you will have two ex wives.


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## Cynthia

Andy1001 said:


> Keep bringing up meeting your ex wife to your current wife.
> Pretty soon you will have two ex wives.


This ^^^^^

Your ex-wife is not your problem. She is an adult. If she wants to spend Christmas with her children, that is for her to work out with them. What you are trying to do smacks of codependency to me.


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## Betrayedone

Yes, this is crazy......Don't enable her and make her life easier. Not to mention piss off your current wife....unless you want to lose her too.


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## Spicy

A few questions. 

How old are your kids?

Do they live with her and they spend school breaks with you?

What reason do your kids give for not wanting to spend it with her?

How is your co-parenting relationship?

How do her and your current wife get along (if they interact)?


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## Livvie

Holy ****!


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## sokillme

Listen to your wife. Before you **** it all up.

Nothing worse for a wife then to see her husband white knight his ex. Seriously dude stop it. If you absolutely must let her take the kids part of the day.


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## *Deidre*

sokillme said:


> Listen to your wife. Before you **** it all up.
> 
> Nothing worse for a wife then to see her husband white knight his ex. Seriously dude stop it. If you absolutely must let her take the kids part of the day.


This.

I understand wanting to be compassionate during the holidays, OP...but your current wife is your priority, not your ex. And seeing that your kids ''chose'' you, it's not like they don't realize they're not going to see her.


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## frusdil

As a second wife, I can tell you right now that hell would freeze over before my husbands ex would EVER be invited for Christmas with MY family. Hell no.

If you push this, you will have another ex wife.

If the kids really want to see their mother, she can pick them up and drop them back, or you can work out a drop off/pick up schedule. Don't ask your wife to share the holiday with your ex. Very unfair.

If my husband tried this he would be told in no uncertain terms, he could spend Christmas with either me, or his ex. Not both of us.


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## lifeistooshort

My ex hb worried about his ex wife too, "for the kid".

It's one of the reasons I'm now also an ex wife.


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## phraven

Fair enough. It's not a good idea and I shouldn't have brought it up. Thanks for the input.


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## phraven

Spicy said:


> A few questions.
> 
> *How old are your kids?* I have three kids, they are 16y/o.
> 
> *Do they live with her and they spend school breaks with you? *We are supposed to alternate weeks and holidays but they are with me most of the time. They prefer being at my house and between dance, jobs, school, and friends they are barely home as it is. Going back and forth between homes would interfere with their social lives and commitments. I think their mother calls or texts them sometimes but they don't see her much. Quite frankly they probably only see her if they want something that I or my wife said no to. Or if one of my kids is going through a phase of wanting to be an individual from her sisters.
> 
> *What reason do your kids give for not wanting to spend it with her? *Their relationship with their mother suffered during the divorce. I am guilty of putting the kids in the middle and telling them things that I shouldn't have. I realized that recently and I do feel guilty about it. That guilt is probably what is driving the idea of inviting her. On top of that I live in the house the kids grew up in and are attached to. Their mother doesn't live close enough for them to easily see their friends or do their other commitments and they don't want to wake up earlier and travel farther. Every winter break I rent a chalet at a ski resort and the kids enjoy that and having their friends over. They say she is overbearing and annoying but they are teenagers so who knows how accurate that is.
> 
> *How is your co-parenting relationship?* We used to fight a lot but now we have very little contact and no longer fight. Any contact we do have is about the kids and very business-like and disagreements are handled without fighting.
> 
> *How do her and your current wife get along (if they interact)?* They don't interact anymore. Early in the divorce process my ex-wife was not very friendly or easy to work with but that has stopped. If we have to be at the same event I avoid sitting or standing near my ex-wife and she seems to do the same. I was with my ex-wife for 27 years and I think that is a bit intimidating to my wife when we've only been together for 6 years.


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## phraven

sokillme said:


> Listen to your wife. Before you **** it all up.
> 
> Nothing worse for a wife then to see her husband white knight his ex. Seriously dude stop it. If you absolutely must let her take the kids part of the day.


Out of curiosity what does white knighting my ex mean?


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## talesofthe-twofoldmother

You need to put your wife above all things... she said no, respect that. 

We need kind of a better background on why the kids aren't interested in Christmas with her. 
IMO there is a good valid reason to that.

Me as a wife reading your post OP, makes me thing either

A.) You have much compassion.
B.) You are just thinking its better for the kids and feeling guilty.
C.) Your possibly completely ignorant and wanting the ex-wife back. 
D.) Your having problems in your current marriage, and just want to speed the process along quicker?

Yes... I have many logics/reasoning haha.


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## Blondilocks

phraven said:


> Out of curiosity what does white knighting my ex mean?


It means to try to rescue her.

Out of curiosity, is your current wife the reason you divorced your first wife?


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## lifeistooshort

If you feel like you contributed to alienating your kids from their mother unnecessarily that's not going to be addressed by inviting her over for Christmas and pissing off your wife.

Sit them down and tell them that divorce is tough and you said some things that you shouldn't have and unfairly put them in the middle . If their mother isn't toxic then encourage them to pursue a relationship with her and explain that their relationship with her has nothing to do with yours.

This is much bigger issue then is going to be addressed at an awkward holiday dinner. It's not your job to manage their relationship with their mother, but you should own any part you had in it that wasn't necessary.


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## FalCod

Christmas is a time when Santa is supposed to visit your house, not Satan. Similar spelling, but very different.


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## gdtm0111

In our case, we are spending Christmas together. This is my week with my son, but he’ll got to church service with her and her parents on Christmas Eve and then stay with his mom for the night. I plan to go over early before he wakes up.

It’s not the ideal situation but for now it works. In the case of the OP, let the kids and the ex-wife decide. If the ex doesn’t want to be there, there isn’t much you can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tilted 1

phraven said:


> Does anyone spend Christmas with their ex? Is that a crazy, illogical idea?
> 
> I brought the idea up with my wife and she said no. So maybe that's the answer I'm looking for.
> 
> The thing is, my ex-wife doesn't get to see the kids on Christmas. I have the kids for their winter break (December 20-January 6) because that's what they chose. This will be the fourth year in a row of that. I don't know what my ex-wife's Christmas plans are but she doesn't have any family and she isn't in a relationship. As far as I know she hasn't had a relationship since our divorce. She may not even want to come over but I keep thinking I should invite her.
> 
> Like I said, my wife is not open to the idea. I respect my wife's decisions and feelings but on this one she didn't give it a second of thought before making a decision, and it's for my kids too. They SHOULD be seeing their mom on Christmas. They don't have a great relationship with their mom. So maybe it's guilt driving this idea to spend Christmas together.
> 
> Is this a crazy idea that I should drop? Or do I push my wife on it more? I won't invite my ex-wife without my wife giving the okay but I'd at least like her to hear my out, unless I'm the idiot for thinking this in the first place and should shut up about it.


Nope it's a turf war, if you want to be the KISA, let your kids go there. But they will think you are trying to get rid of them. Play the cards you were dealt. Drop it and move on if you don't you lose the respect of your wife, and that's all that really matters. Case closed! Now l have to see what TAM says.


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## Livvie

Yes, I get this.

I was replying to an individual post in which someone said "why the **** would you want to be nice to your ex wife" and his general negativity re an ex just because she's an ex (this forum has not heard any horror story about OPs ex, in fact from what OP has said, his ex was the one who has been done wrong by him).




MJJEAN said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm commenting on the general negativity just because someone is an ex.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't classify most people's thoughts on ex's as generally negative. I think most people break up, do their healing, and then their ex's become, more or less, strangers. Someone they used to know back when. Their ex, how their ex is feeling or how they've been doing simply isn't on the radar any more than it would be for any other random person.
Click to expand...


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## MJJEAN

Livvie said:


> "why the **** would you want to be nice to your ex wife" and his general negativity re an ex just because she's an ex


See, I'm firmly in the "Why would you want to be nice to your ex wife/husband" camp. I just don't get it. They're an ex, they aren't part of your life and don't exist in your world any more than the other 7 billion people o the planet, so why bother, ya know?


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## Livvie

Mine does. We live in the same small town, know the same people from both living in said town for almost 2 decades, both attend parent teacher conferences, effectively co parent re medical, high school educational and college decisions and financing, run into each other at the grocery store, dentist, post office, town cafe. When grandchildren are born, we will be the grandparents and are going to run into each other and be participating in some of the same life events of the children he and I are parents to. I understand that some divorced people hate each other and many never have to see each other, but that's not everyone's story and it IS possible to be pleasant/nice to an ex spouse.



MJJEAN said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> "why the **** would you want to be nice to your ex wife" and his general negativity re an ex just because she's an ex
> 
> 
> 
> See, I'm firmly in the "Why would you want to be nice to your ex wife/husband" camp. I just don't get it. They're an ex, they aren't part of your life and don't exist in your world any more than the other 7 billion people o the planet, so why bother, ya know?
Click to expand...


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## lifeistooshort

phraven said:


> Upon thinking about it more, you're right. The issues are not going to be resolved with one Christmas dinner. I'm not going to extend an invitation to my ex-wife or bring it up with my wife again.
> 
> So I should encourage my kids to see their mother but not make attempts to force it?
> 
> What would make their mother toxic? I'm not familiar with that term.


It means is it unhealthy or otherwise upsetting for them to be around her due to her behavior?

But now that we have a clearer picture of what's going on here i think you have to own the ****ty way in which you ended this marriage. It may well have been dead (was your ex aware of the issues?), but at the end of the day you had an affair, left your wife, got alimony from her, and talked enough **** about her to the kids that you alienated them from her. You could have left the marriage honorably, but by your own admission you didn't have the guts until you had a soft place to land (another woman). Own that.

Since you got alimony I'll guess you were a sahd who had lots of access to use the kids against her while she supported everyone.

You need to fix your part of that. What did you tell them? Knowing what was said will give us an idea of the damage caused and what it might take to repair it.

That's why you feel guilty....because you know you behaved poorly and you're a decent guy. A jerk wouldn't feel guilty.


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## Emerging Buddhist

You can be kind... I encourage you to not speak of your ex to your children unless it is true, kind and necessary and only then if all three are met.

Even kindness has boundaries, you need to understand what the healthy ones are and live them.

Your past cannot be changed, you did what you did but live the present well or you are doing nothing but prolonging the lessons you should have learned awhile ago.

I would like to see my daughters maintain a relationship with their mother, my ex, but the best way to do that is by allowing them the room to either build or remove, not interfering.

Ask them their plans, then respect their decisions... at 16 their awareness (and forgiveness) will be built on actions, not words.

If you do ask their forgiveness for your unkind words of their mother, give them the gift of humility after such by leaving it in their hands once you do... such a gift should never look for an answer or response attached.

Make your right effort in peace and accept the return, be sure you take the time to understand the answer that will come, not necessarily the one you want.

Your awareness is already improving...


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## Diana7

OK so you cheated on her and even told the children things that you shouldn't have, and now you rightly feel guilty. Apologise to all concerned but dont ask her, not sure why you think that she would want dinner with her ex and the woman who he cheated with and destroyed their marriage anyway. Maybe your present wife also knows she did wrong, so she isn't going to want her round is she.


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## MJJEAN

Livvie said:


> Mine does. We live in the same small town, know the same people from both living in said town for almost 2 decades, both attend parent teacher conferences, effectively co parent re medical, high school educational and college decisions and financing, run into each other at the grocery store, dentist, post office, town cafe. When grandchildren are born, we will be the grandparents and are going to run into each other and be participating in some of the same life events of the children he and I are parents to. I understand that some divorced people hate each other and many never have to see each other, but that's not everyone's story and it IS possible to be pleasant/nice to an ex spouse.


We're in a more populated area, so it's different. It's easier to get lost in the crowd, so to speak. Most divorced people I know live in separate, but nearby, cities. They don't shop in the same stores, use the same doctors, go to the same restaurants. They schedule parent-teacher conferences individually. Holidays and birthdays are held separate, too. They go to their kids events and sit on opposite ends of a crowded venue. When the kids graduate, the kids decide on their colleges, sent the appropriate paperwork to each parent, and that's that. Only a couple of us have grandkids yet, but that seems to be no different, so far. It's not because they hate each other. It's most have divorced, had very minimal contact re: the kids when the kids were young, haven't interacted since the kids could handle their own communications, and there just isn't any reason to talk to or interact with what is, in effect, a stranger.

I've been watching people do this for decades, but it wasn't until recently I heard a term for it. I think parallel parenting is the best way to describe it. Not because they are unable to cordially communicate, but because they don't see a need to any more than necessary for the kids.


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## phraven

lifeistooshort said:


> It means is it unhealthy or otherwise upsetting for them to be around her due to her behavior?
> 
> But now that we have a clearer picture of what's going on here i think you have to own the ****ty way in which you ended this marriage. It may well have been dead (was your ex aware of the issues?), but at the end of the day you had an affair, left your wife, got alimony from her, and talked enough **** about her to the kids that you alienated them from her. You could have left the marriage honorably, but by your own admission you didn't have the guts until you had a soft place to land (another woman). Own that.
> 
> Since you got alimony I'll guess you were a sahd who had lots of access to use the kids against her while she supported everyone.
> 
> You need to fix your part of that. What did you tell them? Knowing what was said will give us an idea of the damage caused and what it might take to repair it.
> 
> That's why you feel guilty....because you know you behaved poorly and you're a decent guy. A jerk wouldn't feel guilty.


I haven't seen anything about my ex-wife's behaviour that would be upsetting or unhealthy to be around. The worst my kids complain about are her rules. She's not a drunk or anything. 

We lost a 2 y/o child and my first marriage died right along beside. I was miserable and my ex-wife was miserable as well. We both shut down and pushed each other away. I met my wife two years later. It's not that I didn't have the guts to leave. It's that I couldn't see any light or reason to change how my life was going. I didn't have an affair. My first marriage was long dead. All that was left was a piece of paper. I wasn't sneaking around hiding a mistress somewhere. 

It was my ex-wife's idea to have another child. I didn't want more kids or to go through the IVF process again. When we lost that daughter I blamed my ex-wife for having to go through that experience. Being brief, I told the kids that their mom wanted another baby because she didn't love them enough and they weren't enough for her. I blamed the divorce and them losing a sister on my ex-wife's choice to have another child. When my ex-wife was mad at me during the divorce I told the kids that she was bipolar (she's not) and made them feel like she was unsafe to be around. When the kids are mad at me I've said things to instead direct that anger at their mom. I know now that it was wrong.


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## phraven

oldtruck said:


> That and whose idea was it to get a divorce?
> 
> Also was the second wife your OW?


I pulled the trigger on getting a divorce but we were both miserable. 

OW meaning Other Woman? I met my wife while I was married to my ex-wife but by the time I met my wife my first marriage had been nothing more than a piece of paper for two years.


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## phraven

Blondilocks said:


> I'm not the one who suggested you were white knighting your ex. I offered a definition.
> 
> I think you're thinking about inviting your ex over out of guilt. Guilt over involving your very young children in the divorce. Guilt over taking up with another woman before divorcing their mother. Guilt over kicking their mother out of her home and moving in her replacement.
> 
> Of course your current wife doesn't want anything to do with your ex. She'd feel pretty weird cooking dinner in the ex's kitchen and acting like the lady of the manor. Then again, maybe not. After all, she took up with a married man.
> 
> Do your kids call the new wife Mom? How old is your new wife?


I didn't consider how it would feel for my wife if my ex-wife were in the house. Thank-you for noting that. 

My wife did not take it up with a married man. By the time I met my wife my first marriage was nothing more than a piece of paper. My first marriage had been dead for two years. There is a mandatory 1 year separation in Canada so I had no choice but to wait another year to divorce. 

My kids do not call my wife mom. My wife 41, why is that relevant?


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## phraven

sokillme said:


> Right so invite the ex wife over to the new wife (once mistresses) house for Christmas. That should go over real well. Now all the wives will be pissed.


I didn't take that into consideration. I had the idea and brought it up to my wife before thinking it through. Now the idea seems very stupid.


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## phraven

Andy1001 said:


> You are thinking of inviting your ex wife over to make YOU feel better.
> Has your ex ever suggested that she wants a closer relationship with the children or yourself?


I do believe that the idea was to make me feel better. It now seems like a stupid idea. 

A closure relationship with me? No. A closer relationship with the kids? Yes. The closest relationship my ex-wife wants to me is probably burying me in her backyard.


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## lifeistooshort

phraven said:


> I haven't seen anything about my ex-wife's behaviour that would be upsetting or unhealthy to be around. The worst my kids complain about are her rules. She's not a drunk or anything.
> 
> We lost a 2 y/o child and my first marriage died right along beside. I was miserable and my ex-wife was miserable as well. We both shut down and pushed each other away. I met my wife two years later. It's not that I didn't have the guts to leave. It's that I couldn't see any light or reason to change how my life was going. I didn't have an affair. My first marriage was long dead. All that was left was a piece of paper. I wasn't sneaking around hiding a mistress somewhere.
> 
> It was my ex-wife's idea to have another child. I didn't want more kids or to go through the IVF process again. When we lost that daughter I blamed my ex-wife for having to go through that experience. Being brief, I told the kids that their mom wanted another baby because she didn't love them enough and they weren't enough for her. I blamed the divorce and them losing a sister on my ex-wife's choice to have another child. When my ex-wife was mad at me during the divorce I told the kids that she was bipolar (she's not) and made them feel like she was unsafe to be around. When the kids are mad at me I've said things to instead direct that anger at their mom. I know now that it was wrong.




Wow. First of all I'm so sorry about your child.....that must have been horrible.

Second.....what supremely ****ty things to say to your kids. I don't think you grasp the magnitude of what you did.....in your quest to damage your ex you probably ****ed your kids up too. What do you think it must have felt like to be told their mother didn't love them enough? People act out in all kinds of ways when they think their mother didn't love them.

Geez.....I can't even wrap myself around how selfish your behavior was. If your ex was like that she might have told them you didn't want another child because you didn't even like the ones you had. The fact that she didn't tells me she was a better person then you.

But now you're reflecting on it which is good.....there's hope for you.

Fix it now. Tell your kids you were angry and none of it was true and their mother loved them very much. They may figure it out eventually and turn on you anyway. Frankly, if I was your ex, there's no way in hell I'd come to dinner just so you can feel better about yourself while trying to avoid owning up to what you did. It's like stealing someone's life savings and then trying to make yourself feel better about it by offering $20 in gas money. Not even close to making up for it.

Do the right thing. Your kids will learn that it's human to act out when in pain.

It's good you're willing to have this discussion here. I'm sure a lot of the posts are tough to read....mine included. But you'll come out of this a better person and your kids will be better off if you face this head on.


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## Spicy

lifeistooshort said:


> Wow. First of all I'm so sorry about your child.....that must have been horrible.
> 
> Second.....what supremely ****ty things to say to your kids. I don't think you grasp the magnitude of what you did.....in your quest to damage your ex you probably ****ed your kids up too. What do you think it must have felt like to be told their mother didn't love them enough? People act out in all kinds of ways when they think their mother didn't love them.
> 
> Geez.....I can't even wrap myself around how selfish your behavior was.
> 
> But now you're reflecting on it which is good.
> 
> Fix it now. Tell your kids you were angry and none of it was true and their mother loved them very much. They may figure it out eventually and turn on you anyway. Frankly, if I was your ex, there's no way in hell I'd come to dinner just so you can feel better about yourself while trying to avoid owning up to what you did. It's like stealing someone's life savings and then trying to make yourself feel better about it by offering $20 in gas money. Not even close to making up for it.
> 
> Do the right thing. Your kids will learn that it's human to act out when in pain.


:iagree::iagree:

What you said and did to sabotage the mother of your children is evil. Oh my.


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## MJJEAN

So you know a bit about me, I was married and had an affair. I left my marriage for my OM and married him soon after the divorce was final.



phraven said:


> OW meaning Other Woman? I met my wife while I was married to my ex-wife *but by the time I met my wife my first marriage had been nothing more than a piece of paper for two years.*


You keep repeating this. We need details to be fair to you and prevent assumptions. 

If your now ex-wife was aware the marriage was over, if you'd already discussed and agreed the marriage was over and you were separated, then you are absolutely correct.

If your wife was not clearly made aware the marriage was over and that you two were separated, then your current wife is the other woman.

Was my marriage a sham? Yes. We lived separate personal lives, didn't talk, yadda yadda. Did we both know the marriage was a sham? Yes. Hell, my closest friend described our relationship as one of "mutual loathing". That said, what I did was still cheating. I'm not one to say you have to wait for the courts to sign off, but to claim it's not cheating at least requires the other party to be clearly notified the marriage is over, to understand they are separated, and merely waiting for the court papers to be filed and stamped.



phraven said:


> I do believe that the idea was to make me feel better. It now seems like a stupid idea.
> 
> A closure relationship with me? No. A closer relationship with the kids? Yes. The closest relationship my ex-wife wants to me is probably burying me in her backyard.


And rightly so. If you didn't tell her the marriage was over then from her point of view, you left her for an affair partner, poisoned her kids against her, and took her money to add insult to injury. If that's what happened, you should feel terribly guilty not only for what you did to her, but for the relationship with their mother your actions have cost your kids.


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## Tilted 1

phraven said:


> I haven't seen anything about my ex-wife's behaviour that would be upsetting or unhealthy to be around. The worst my kids complain about are her rules. She's not a drunk or anything.
> 
> We lost a 2 y/o child and my first marriage died right along beside. I was miserable and my ex-wife was miserable as well. We both shut down and pushed each other away. I met my wife two years later. It's not that I didn't have the guts to leave. It's that I couldn't see any light or reason to change how my life was going. I didn't have an affair. My first marriage was long dead. All that was left was a piece of paper. I wasn't sneaking around hiding a mistress somewhere.
> 
> It was my ex-wife's idea to have another child. I didn't want more kids or to go through the IVF process again. When we lost that daughter I blamed my ex-wife for having to go through that experience. Being brief, I told the kids that their mom wanted another baby because she didn't love them enough and they weren't enough for her. I blamed the divorce and them losing a sister on my ex-wife's choice to have another child. When my ex-wife was mad at me during the divorce I told the kids that she was bipolar (she's not) and made them feel like she was unsafe to be around. When the kids are mad at me I've said things to instead direct that anger at their mom. I know now that it was wrong.


Well... Well....well, l was correct in it's your guilt that has spawned this. And as a man your character sucks and it's no wonder your kids like you. Low to no morals or values. And yet you want to give the appearance of a good guy. There isn't much hope for you as others have said because if you were wanting to right the wrong for you would have done so already. 

You buy people off because you do not have what it takes, to be a real person who wants honor. Forget about the piece of paper BS. It makes sense why your kids want to be with you the buying people off mode is always on. 

I feel for your newest wife, you may be ok as long as you can continue to buy her off in some fashion. Superficial is how you play your game it's taken you 55 post before you came clean here and we're strangers. I give you 1/2 of a ounce of 10 lbs to your character strengths. But giving the illusion your actually is what make you less than a drunk, why because at least they know they need to change and stop. But you don't have a clue. 

You have time left to be a better person, to work on being a man who can stand by himself with out smashing and stepping on others. 

Grow a pair!! and own up to your BS now, and find out if you kids love you only because you buy them off.


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## lifeistooshort

Tilted 1 said:


> Well... Well....well, l was correct in it's your guilt that has spawned this. And as a man your character sucks and it's no wonder your kids like you. Low to no morals or values. And yet you want to give the appearance of a good guy. There isn't much hope for you as others have said because if you were wanting to right the wrong for you would have done so already.
> 
> You buy people off because you do not have what it takes, to be a real person who wants honor. Forget about the piece of paper BS. It makes sense why your kids want to be with you the buying people off mode is always on.
> 
> I feel for your newest wife, you may be ok as long as you can continue to buy her off in some fashion. Superficial is how you play your game it's taken you 55 post before you came clean here and we're strangers. I give you 1/2 of a ounce of 10 lbs to your character strengths. But giving the illusion your actually is what make you less than a drunk, why because at least they know they need to change and stop. But you don't have a clue.
> 
> You have time left to be a better person, to work on being a man who can stand by himself with out smashing and stepping on others.
> 
> Grow a pair!! and own up to your BS now, and find out if you kids love you only because you buy them off.



He doesn't even buy them stuff with his own money.

He gets alimony...so really he buys everyone stuff with his ex's money.


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## Blondilocks

Holy ****! I can't believe you told your kids all of that damn crap. Just pisses me right off. It seems you don't consider anyone's feelings except for your own.

You can keep telling yourself your marriage was only a piece of paper 'til the cows come home; but, it doesn't negate the fact that you were in an emotional or physical affair while still married.

You need to start doing some serious clean-up work with the girls and take your damn lumps.

The age matters because you are at least a decade older than your wife and pretty soon the ravages of age will manifest themselves and you won't look so appealing to your wife. You'll be looking for a new partner as you're pushing sixty and then you'll know how it feels to be dumped for a younger person and slandered and vilified.

What you did to your daughters and ex-wife is absolutely despicable and will come back to haunt you and it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Enjoy your Christmas if you have the nerve to celebrate it.


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## phraven

lifeistooshort said:


> He doesn't even buy them stuff with his own money.
> 
> He gets alimony...so really he buys everyone stuff with his ex's money.


Alimony, child support and my income are all the same once it's in my bank account. It's my money to do as I see fit with. No one would be complaining about a woman getting alimony.


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## lifeistooshort

phraven said:


> Alimony, child support and my income are all the same once it's in my bank account. It's my money to do as I see fit with. No one would be complaining about a woman getting alimony.


They most certainly would if said woman had behaved in the same way you did. Read some threads here.....a woman who had an exit affair (which is what you had), alienated her kids from their father, and got alimony would get wrecked on this site (assuming the father wasn't abusive or otherwise a nasty individual, and according to you your ex is none of this).

Alimony after really bad behavior leaves a sour taste in peoples mouths even if it is fair.

Do you work? Does your wife work? How much of your household is your ex supporting? If your current wife doesn't work that's even worse.


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## Spicy

Maybe you should invite your XW to a counseling session with you and all of your kids and tell them all the truth together, at the same time so she and they can hear what all you have said about her to ruin their relationship!!!! You have done a very horrible thing. 

She loves children so much she was willing to go through IVF to have more. You have stolen ALL THESE YEARS from her and your children out of selfishness. Not only did her last baby die, then her husband has an affair, divorces her, she has to leave HER family home, (where her children are comfortable and will naturally gravitate too) and then you fill their little minds with lies so you can manipulate the situation even more. You turn your kids against their own mother. 

How would you have felt if while she had the kids she made up enough lies about you that you had barely seen them for the last SIX YEARS of their life???? That when you see them you can tell they don’t want to be there?! Truly please, sit back and think that question through. Let that hit your heart. 

They were little kids, they believe their parents!!!! You abused that trust. 

I hope the guilt of this rots you until you fully come clean with them all. At least then they can start to repair. Nothing will get them back what they lost. NOTHING. They will all figure this out one day, and that’s gonna be a very dark period in your life.

Tell all 4 of them the truth NOW.


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## Blondilocks

It's too bad his ex-wife seems unaware of Canada's rules about alienation of affection. She could present a case with the court and possibly see some redistribution of divorce terms. Like getting full custody and have the OP paying her child support.

Man, she must have had the worst lawyer in Canada.


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## sokillme

phraven said:


> I didn't take that into consideration. I had the idea and brought it up to my wife before thinking it through. Now the idea seems very stupid.


If you really didn't think about that then you should work on that. You are gonna have a hard life if you aren't a little more thoughtful.


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## michzz

OK, I read through all of these comments. Most are philosophical or emotional connection topics. 

I see this as a much more visceral reaction. Your current wife will not want to be reminded on Christmas of any other woman you have had sex with. And if said woman tries to make comments at the dinner table reminding you of good times past?

There may be gravy spilled on a pretty outfit.

Don't be dense.


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## aquarius1

Wow. That's ****y. It's hard to believe that a person could behave SO badly.
It's clear that you want to extend an invite because you feel guilty. And you SHOULD feel guilty.
Want to give your XW the best gift ever for Christmas?
Come clean about all of your evil lies and bull**** to your kids.
Right the terrible wrongs you have done.
Stop thinking a pathetic Xmas dinner is going to make up for the horrible way that you have behaved.
Seriously. Unf***ing believable.
You can justify yourself until the cows come home. Doesn't make it right.


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## Diana7

phraven said:


> I haven't seen anything about my ex-wife's behaviour that would be upsetting or unhealthy to be around. The worst my kids complain about are her rules. She's not a drunk or anything.
> 
> We lost a 2 y/o child and my first marriage died right along beside. I was miserable and my ex-wife was miserable as well. We both shut down and pushed each other away. I met my wife two years later. It's not that I didn't have the guts to leave. It's that I couldn't see any light or reason to change how my life was going. I didn't have an affair. My first marriage was long dead. All that was left was a piece of paper. I wasn't sneaking around hiding a mistress somewhere.
> 
> It was my ex-wife's idea to have another child. I didn't want more kids or to go through the IVF process again. When we lost that daughter I blamed my ex-wife for having to go through that experience. Being brief, I told the kids that their mom wanted another baby because she didn't love them enough and they weren't enough for her. I blamed the divorce and them losing a sister on my ex-wife's choice to have another child. When my ex-wife was mad at me during the divorce I told the kids that she was bipolar (she's not) and made them feel like she was unsafe to be around. When the kids are mad at me I've said things to instead direct that anger at their mom. I know now that it was wrong.


If you were still married then yes, you did have an affair. What you said to your children was beyond disgusting, I sincerely hope that you have apologised to each of them and told them that none of these things were/are true. Also that you have apologised to you ex wife for cheating on her and for the terrible way you treated her and the lies you told the children about her.
If you haven't then you need to do is asap. I cant believe that you can live with yourself. Does you present wife know what you have done? Does she approve?


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## Diana7

phraven said:


> I pulled the trigger on getting a divorce but we were both miserable.
> 
> OW meaning Other Woman? I met my wife while I was married to my ex-wife but by the time I met my wife my first marriage had been nothing more than a piece of paper for two years.


Most people who cheat will give that sort of excuse.


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## MJJEAN

michzz said:


> Your current wife will not want to be reminded on Christmas of any other woman you have had sex with.


Or maybe she doesn't want to be reminded of the woman who's husband she had an affair with, who's kids she has helped take away and alienate, and who's money is paying a chunk of her bills, while she eats her Christmas dinner. Indigestion, you know. 
Being reminded what your husband is capable of probably doesn't make dessert taste sweet, either.


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## aquarius1

MJJEAN said:


> Or maybe she doesn't want to be reminded of the woman who's husband she had an affair with, who's kids she has helped take away and alienate, and who's money is paying a chunk of her bills, while she eats her Christmas dinner. Indigestion, you know.
> Being reminded what your husband is capable of probably doesn't make dessert taste sweet, either.


Karma is a very patient, very thorough teacher.


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## Tilted 1

Diana7 said:


> If you were still married then yes, you did have an affair. What you said to your children was beyond disgusting, I sincerely hope that you have apologised to each of them and told them that none of these things were/are true. Also that you have apologised to you ex wife for cheating on her and for the terrible way you treated her and the lies you told the children about her.
> If you haven't then you need to do is asap. I cant believe that you can live with yourself. Does you present wife know what you have done? Does she approve?


He cannot live with himself that's why he is here.

phraven, you can come clean this Christmas and be the new you. No one said you had to stay with your ex. It's been a while but you can do this. Losing a child is unthinkable, but losing character is unmeasurable do the right thing and don't let your kids go through their life thinking their mom is some sort of monster. 

Do the right thing, you will be amazed how setting things right changes you even at the cost.


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## Adelais

phraven said:


> I haven't seen anything about my ex-wife's behaviour that would be upsetting or unhealthy to be around. The worst my kids complain about are her rules. She's not a drunk or anything.
> 
> We lost a 2 y/o child and my first marriage died right along beside. I was miserable and my ex-wife was miserable as well. We both shut down and pushed each other away. I met my wife two years later. It's not that I didn't have the guts to leave. It's that I couldn't see any light or reason to change how my life was going. I didn't have an affair. My first marriage was long dead. All that was left was a piece of paper. I wasn't sneaking around hiding a mistress somewhere.
> 
> It was my ex-wife's idea to have another child. I didn't want more kids or to go through the IVF process again. When we lost that daughter I blamed my ex-wife for having to go through that experience. Being brief, I told the kids that their mom wanted another baby because she didn't love them enough and they weren't enough for her. I blamed the divorce and them losing a sister on my ex-wife's choice to have another child. When my ex-wife was mad at me during the divorce I told the kids that she was bipolar (she's not) and made them feel like she was unsafe to be around. When the kids are mad at me I've said things to instead direct that anger at their mom. I know now that it was wrong.


Your behavior toward the mother of your children and to your children has been shameful. 

You need to come clean to your children about all of what you wrote here and all the other vengeful things you left out . Make a list of the despicable things you did to your wife and to them and write them a letter detailing all of it. Having it in writing would be good so that they could refer back to it in the future if they forget or start getting angry with their mother out of habit.

Also, no matter how you paint it, your relationship with your current wife started as an affair based on the facts that your wife didn't know about it or give her consent.


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