# What is the cost of forgiveness?



## giashasa2012 (Aug 16, 2012)

Affair Recovery: Forgiving Infidelity: The High Price of Forgiveness | Affair Recovery

wanted to share it


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

A certain amount of self respect and a leap of faith. A constant throbbing of uncertainty.

No, I didn't follow the link. Just some random thoughts


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

giashasa2012 said:


> Affair Recovery: Forgiving Infidelity: The High Price of Forgiveness | Affair Recovery
> 
> wanted to share it


From the Link:

*Grace isn’t cheap; it comes at a high price. Failure to appreciate the high price paid by those choosing to forgive minimizes the magnitude of their sacrifice. 

The currencies used by the betrayed spouse to pay off the debt incurred by their mate’s betrayal are pride, ego, and suffering. Forgiving infidelity costs their dignity when they choose to stay rather than leave. 

It costs them their just due when they choose to forgo justice for the sake of the relationship. It costs them their sanity because they don’t control the painful thoughts invading their mind. 

Their present-day reality is constantly interrupted with painful memories of the past. It costs them their dreams because this road isn’t one they’d ever planned on traveling. 

It costs them health because the pain of the offense consumes their life. And I’m only beginning to scratch the surface.

As one who believes in the value of forgiving, I never want to be guilty of cheap grace, where I think it’s something to which I’m entitled. If justice is the standard, then the consequence of betrayal is the loss of relationship. *


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> From the Link:
> 
> *Grace isn’t cheap; it comes at a high price. Failure to appreciate the high price paid by those choosing to forgive minimizes the magnitude of their sacrifice.
> 
> ...



Just ****ing Wow!

Now I got to read the link! Damn you Sara!


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## giashasa2012 (Aug 16, 2012)

Powerfull article


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

giashasa2012 said:


> Powerfull article


Yes. It really was and is a great read. 

And, the fact that it is christian based is striking. I would expect them to extol the virtues of forgiveness.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

That is a really great article, and very timely for me. Thank you for posting this.


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## ssap (Sep 18, 2012)

someone linked this article in another thread. I am very moved by it. 

For those of us in limbo, how are we supposed to "score" the costs of reconcilliation with the unknown potential benefit/loss of said reconcilliation?


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

Well worth the read. It will certainly make me a better person. I suggest everyone take a moment to read it.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

ssap said:


> someone linked this article in another thread. I am very moved by it.
> 
> For those of us in limbo, how are we supposed to "score" the costs of reconcilliation with the unknown potential benefit/loss of said reconcilliation?


By the spouse actually ACTING like they want to even the scale for you. Not trip along bargaining like fish wife over every single compromise to make it as minimal as possible.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

With the case presented in the article with Sandra and Campbell, the author of the article makes some good points. Sandra never was totally committed and had doubts about Campbell being the one she loved even before the wedding.

Not only did Sandra have multiple affairs during the marriage she failed to be honest with her husband for 17 years. In this case no one in their right mind would object to Campbell divorcing Sandra. 

The author quotes Christianity
Quote of the Author of the article
In Christendom we teach “as God forgave us so we’re to forgive.” Isn’t that the lesson we teach our children? But we forget that forgiveness comes at a price


In the case of infidelity, Christianity allows for a price, the consequence allowed is divorce.


Quote of the Author of the article
All too often we talk about the high price of NOT forgiving. That forgiveness is a gift you give yourself and how failing to forgive leaves you forever a victim


Forgiving is a gift that you give your self and failing to forgive can have emotional consequences.


I have no argument with the author on his points as it relates to the case of Sandra and Campbell. However the author leaves the Impression that to forgive and stay in the relationship would always violate personal beliefs and values and costs of pride, self-respect, dignity, and the ability to be honest. 

There are other cases that this is not true. In fact there is a thread on this forum in the Long Term Success In Marriage section that verifies my statement. The title of the thread is How We Overcame Adultery”


Quote of the Author of the article
“If justice is the standard, then the consequence of betrayal is the loss of relationship.”


*Justice is a good standard but it is superseded in some cases by grace and love.*


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> With the case presented in the article with Sandra and Campbell, the author of the article makes some good points. Sandra never was totally committed and had doubts about Campbell being the one she loved even before the wedding.
> 
> Not only did Sandra have multiple affairs during the marriage she failed to be honest with her husband for 17 years. In this case no one in their right mind would object to Campbell divorcing Sandra.
> 
> ...


No. Everything he says is true. You are uncomfortable with the fact that you DID give up rights, justice and self respect to take a leap of faith in your wife.

In your case, it paid off and maybe in spades. Well done thou good and forgiving servant.

However there are certainly enough threads where the people in question do the EXACT SAME ACTIONS you did and get a boot in the face from their 'loved one' again.

So what was the difference? Did they not 'forgive enough'? Were they not commited enough?

No. It comes down to the character and belief systems of the WS. YOU were lucky (or semi skilled at picking a woman)

Your belief systems were stronger then your senses of self and justice. That is not the case with everyone. You gave up justice and self respect for a leap of faith. You just happened to get your investment back.

If she had cheated again, would you still say you preserved your self respect or would you say you felt twice a fool?

This is rhetorical, but something to think on.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> That is a really great article, and very timely for me. Thank you for posting this.


:iagree:

Me too! Very timely. My god, completely! In fact, both articles just posted on forgiveness (the other one posted by Looking for the Sun), both coming from different angles, are both extremely timely.

Thankyou Posters!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

ssap said:


> someone linked this article in another thread. I am very moved by it.
> 
> For those of us in limbo, how are we supposed to "score" the costs of reconcilliation with the unknown potential benefit/loss of said reconcilliation?


You know the costs/benefits through the level of remorse which in turn dictates the efforts made in reconciliation. And of course time.

It took me a year of pushing for what I needed to realise I was on to a no brainer. He did quite a few things himself to make things easier for me which is why it took so long, but the fundamentals just were not there.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Yes. It really was and is a great read.
> 
> And, the fact that it is christian based is striking. I would expect them to extol the virtues of forgiveness.


They do, and I believe the article does too. It just points out what lots of people have forgotten- that forgiveness is accepting whatever wrong or indignity has been inflicted on the wronged. Many people feel that by taking the higher ground of forgiveness they are going to somehow be rewarded for that selfless act. But the act of selflessness itself means that there is no reward. Virtue is, as some would say, its own reward. Many people "forgive" and then get angry when they don't see karma swing the way they desire it.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Go figure.I can have all of those"goodies" without ever having the benefit of "forgiveness".


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

17 of hiding the truth from your partner, nothing more than a cheap charade of marriage.

I was deceived for 6 years. 6 Years of nothing but shadows, lies, and deceit. Stolen forever... by the very one you gave to without cost. Confusing, yes?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

JCD said:


> No. Everything he says is true. You are uncomfortable with the fact that you DID give up rights, justice and self respect to take a leap of faith in your wife.
> 
> In your case, it paid off and maybe in spades. Well done thou good and forgiving servant.
> 
> ...



Your comment about a leap of faith is so appropriate. 

I am the one who is dead set on divorce not my Cheating spouse. He still wants to reconcile and thinks we can, proving that cheaters are really living in la la land.

What was partially the impetus to file, among many other character flaws of my cheating spouse was that during a counseling session he said I would eventually cheat on him. 

It's so interesting how a cheater would be worried about that. 

Also, I was willing to initially take a leap of faith that once a cheater always a cheater would not apply to him, a known cheater....

Yet he was not willing to take a leap of faith that I would not cheat on him eventually, even though I was a loyal spouse. 

Cheaters have major character flaws, I don't care how people spin it.


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

WhiteMousse said:


> They do, and I believe the article does too. It just points out what lots of people have forgotten- that forgiveness is accepting whatever wrong or indignity has been inflicted on the wronged. Many people feel that by taking the higher ground of forgiveness they are going to somehow be rewarded for that selfless act. But the act of selflessness itself means that there is no reward. Virtue is, as some would say, its own reward. Many people "forgive" and then get angry when they don't see karma swing the way they desire it.


Rewarded oh yeah I can't wait maybe there will be 72 virgins waiting for me HA.
Forgiveness in the case of infidelity has so many different angles (sexual failure, kids ,money, social shame, failure as a person) that it is very hard to make any reason or motivation fit the situation. Pick a reason and someone else will have 2 more, we stay and try to forgive because we think it is better than blowing everything up and moving on. 
I still have the opinion that forgiveness for a man is a bit more difficult (sorry ladies) mainly due to the sexual part of the equation, when your wife cheats you think that you couldn't satisfy her, she needed someone who could. I mean women know when a man is satisfied he has an orgasm (never had a bad one, doubt any man ever has) women who knows she could scream like her head is on fire that could just be her way of getting the man off so she can watch tv. 
Either way I am finding out that forgiveness takes a heavy toll, while you may say you forgive this isn't something that just goes away so it pushes you down every single day and you have to work hard to continue giving forgiveness everyday even on those days when you may want justice.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Son of Kong said:


> Rewarded oh yeah I can't wait maybe there will be 72 virgins waiting for me HA.
> Forgiveness in the case of infidelity has so many different angles (sexual failure, kids ,money, social shame, failure as a person) that it is very hard to make any reason or motivation fit the situation. Pick a reason and someone else will have 2 more, we stay and try to forgive because we think it is better than blowing everything up and moving on.
> I still have the opinion that forgiveness for a man is a bit more difficult (sorry ladies) mainly due to the sexual part of the equation, when your wife cheats you think that you couldn't satisfy her, she needed someone who could. I mean women know when a man is satisfied he has an orgasm (never had a bad one, doubt any man ever has) women who knows she could scream like her head is on fire that could just be her way of getting the man off so she can watch tv.
> Either way I am finding out that forgiveness takes a heavy toll, while you may say you forgive this isn't something that just goes away so it pushes you down every single day and you have to work hard to continue giving forgiveness everyday even on those days when you may want justice.


That is a major problem with forgiveness.

Once you walk down that path, with the belief structure that supports it, if you change your mind, there is a huge hit in your sense of self worth and honor.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Son of Kong said:


> Either way I am finding out that forgiveness takes a heavy toll, while you may say you forgive this isn't something that just goes away so it pushes you down every single day and you have to work hard to continue giving forgiveness everyday even on those days when you may want justice.


I agree, and it seems that those here who are proselytizing forgiveness seem to be giving off the Shakespearan vibe of "me thinks thou doth protesteth too much."

If they are so happy and everything is resolved and moving forward well in their marriage, then why do they still feel the need to haunt this site. 

I think they are here because they know the forgiveness is only in words, not in heart.

One person advocating forgiveness, posited that I was here looking for support (well.....heeeeeeelllo, yes I am)

But they further stated because I have not made up my mind about divorce. 

That's so NOT true. I have filed and I feel it was and is the right path. 

Am I looking for support from the trauma of infidelity after 20 years of marriage......, you bet I am. That is quite normal, too.


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

JCD said:


> That is a major problem with forgiveness.
> 
> Once you walk down that path, with the belief structure that supports it, if you change your mind, there is a huge hit in your sense of self worth and honor.


I don't think it would be a hit to those areas first there is no honor in infidelity, there simply is no reason to cheat if you feel that way then get out of the relationship, if you cheat you are a selfish coward who has no honor and you don't deserve to get treated any better.
Self worth well if you go back on your forgiveness I would think you feel that you are so much better than they are they don't deserve your forgiveness, you will find someone that is worthy of you.
If anything you may feel a sense of failure due to the fact you couldn't overcome the hurt and damage done, but if that would ever happen the blame should be placed on the one who did the damage not the one who tried to fix it.


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I agree, and it seems that those here who are proselytizing forgiveness seem to be giving off the Shakespearan vibe of "me thinks thou doth protesteth too much."
> 
> If they are so happy and everything is resolved and moving forward well in their marriage, then why do they still feel the need to haunt this site.
> 
> ...


Forgiving your SO for infidelity isn't like forgiving a neighbor kid who threw a ball through your window, within a day or so the window is fixed this just isn't that easy.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I agree, and it seems that those here who are proselytizing forgiveness seem to be giving off the Shakespearan vibe of *"me thinks thou doth protesteth too much."*
> 
> If they are so happy and everything is resolved and moving forward well in their marriage, then why do they still feel the need to haunt this site.
> 
> I think they are here because they know the forgiveness is only in words, not in heart.


That phrase did pop into my head as well :rofl:

Eventually, when the dust has settled, and *IF* my STBXH is sorry for what he did, I can see myself forgiving him, for the sake of harmony and peace in my family (especially the children), but that doesn't mean that I will ever forget or that I will ever take him back. It's just another form of closure.

But yes, I agree with you. I do find it an interest study to see extolling the virtues of "forgiveness" as a means of either "rug sweeping" or a "holier than thou" approach to those of us who see things a bit different.


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## gemjo (Aug 24, 2012)

This is one of the best articles I've read regarding how the betrayed spouse feels.

I've just sent a link to this for my H to read, in the hopes he can see more clearly where my head and heart are right now.

Thanks so much for sharing.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Son of Kong said:


> Forgiving your SO for infidelity isn't like forgiving a neighbor kid who threw a ball through your window, within a day or so the window is fixed this just isn't that easy.


Exactly. 

In my case I felt the doubt and distrust and lifelong suspiscion his lies and deceit instilled, would eat at me like a cancer. 

In fact one counselor told me that a high proportion of betrayed spouses go on to develop a major illness very soon after Dday. 

I think it might be due to the stress on the immune system for always feeling the need to look over your shoulder or check up on your cheater spouse.

Edited to add: Or, due to repressing their true feelings of anger and resentment over the betrayal.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

JCD said:


> That is a major problem with forgiveness.
> 
> Once you walk down that path, with the belief structure that supports it, if you change your mind, there is a huge hit in your sense of self worth and honor.


That is why true forgiveness is just that. Once you forgive, you don't change your mind. You move on and have accepted things you cannot change. To forgive is not to forget. It does not mean that you will not hurt ever again, but it can release you from being miserable every single day. It can help you feel like you are not a victim any more, and for once, you have control over your life, not someone else for what they did to you. Does forgiveness mean that a cheater will never cheat on you again - absolutely not. However, if you choose to stay in a marriage, do what you can to make it work. Choose because you love, not to punish and not to suffer. In the end, we all make our own decisions. We cannot prevent someone from cheating no matter how much we try. You either decide the person you are married to is worthy of a second chance or you should move on. Take as much time as you need, weigh your options, your emotions, and their actions. Then decide.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I forgave my wife. What did it cost me? A lonely, broken life without her.

Yes, it was hard, but the alternative would have been harder.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I forgave my wife. What did it cost me? A lonely, broken life without her.
> 
> Yes, it was hard, but the alternative would have been harder.


Matt Matt:

I am so glad you realized you would feel lonely and broken without your wife and chose to forgive because of that self realization. 

However, I don't feel lonely and broken being separated from my spouse. 

I feel empowered and I continue to research the clues that cheaters leave so as to avoid another one should I ever choose to date again. 

Dating however is waaaaay too far from my mind at this point. 

I lived alone for a long time prior to marraige and I embrace my alone time.

One thing TAM reinforces for me is that there are a lot men and women who would never feel comfortable cheating. I like seeing that. It is comforting.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I read something once which seemed really profound to me so I thought I'd share it. It isn't my thoughts, but I sort of subscribe to them.

Your spouse cheats. They totally f u c k up your world.

You have a choice.

Choice A: You dump them like a bad habit.

Choice B: You forgive and forget with warm kisses.

But both options are unsatisfactory for the same reason.

In Choice A, you think about all the good from the marraige. How wonderful the good times were. How people can change. How maybe, just maybe, you were a quitter and a little more effort would have made a beautiful marriage. But you didn't make that choice so it gnaws. Because you still feel empty.

Likewise with Choice B, you forgive. And you wonder. And you have this tiny little voice constantly in the back of your heart asking 'Am I a fool? Is this it? I still feel empty. Why does it hurt so much?'

So in both cases, the answer does not satisfy and you always wonder if you made the right choice.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

One of the paramount lessons that Christ taught us was the power of forgiveness. Because if we cannot bring ourselves to forgive others, then aren't we somewhat hypocritical when we seek out that same foregiveness for ourselves?

It took quite a bit of time but I have sufficiently found it my heart to extend that forgiveness to my STBXW, despite her more than rampant evidence of EA's and PA's. And, make no mistake about it, my conscience is clear. But forgiving her doesn't in any way mean that she will be my friend largely from both of our prospectives. All that it really means is that I now have a clear conscience by the extension of forgiveness of those transgressions of hers levied against me as her devoted husband.

But as the Bible so richly says and to paraphrase, that only a fool will forget. In essence, I have forgiven her, but I will never ever allow myself to forget that which has occurred!


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> One of the paramount lessons that Christ taught us was the power of forgiveness. Because if we cannot bring ourselves to forgive others, then aren't we somewhat hypocritical when we seek out that same foregiveness for ourselves?
> 
> It took quite a bit of time but I have sufficiently found it my heart to extend that forgiveness to my STBXW, despite her more than rampant evidence of EA's and PA's. And, make no mistake about it, my conscience is clear. But forgiving her doesn't in any way mean that she will be my friend from both of our prospectives. It just means that I now have a clear conscience by forgiving her of those transgression of hers against me as her husband.
> 
> But as the Bible so richly says and to paraphrase, that only a fool will forget. In essence, I have forgiven her, but I will never ever allow myself to forget that which has occurred!


I agree with this. 

In my early 20s, an boyfriend in a supposed exclusive relationship cheated. 

I did EVENTUALLY FORGIVE him, but it took time, years.... and we later remained friendly, but I never forgot or trusted him again. 

Here's an excerpt from an article I found on healing from infidelity.

It is a section about not forgiving too soon. 


*Avoid Cheap Forgiveness

Sometimes the desire to salvage the relationship (and on the flip side, the fear of losing a partner) overwhelms the necessity to vent anger, and wronged partners forgive before they’ve had a chance to seethe. Spring calls this “cheap forgiveness,” and finds this behavior in spades among people who are more afraid of being alone than staying with an unfaithful partner. Not only do cheap forgivers swindle themselves out of a healthy grieving process, they set themselves up for future infidelities by not forcing their partners to understand their pain.*

10 Steps to Healing a Relationship After an Affair | Reader's Digest


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

JCD said:


> I read something once which seemed really profound to me so I thought I'd share it. It isn't my thoughts, but I sort of subscribe to them.
> 
> Your spouse cheats. They totally f u c k up your world.
> 
> ...


Good post and this is exactly why I tried initially to reconcile. 

It was only after getting kicked in the face again by ever more lies and deception that I realized I was spitting into the wind with the possibility that my particular cheater would ever truly change.

Still, I am glad I gave it the old college try.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Matt Matt:
> 
> I am so glad you realized you would feel lonely and broken without your wife and chose to forgive because of that self realization.
> 
> ...


Sara, that self-realisation came only a long time after I had forgiven my wife.

My wife deserved my forgiveness. From what you have said, I doubt your husband deserved your forgiveness.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*So in both cases, the answer does not satisfy and you always wonder if you made the right choice.[/QUOTE]*



It is a crapshoot, no doubt. But life is not fair. SH*t happens. The trick is to get past the constant wonder...that is not easy. It will eat you alive if you let it. The same with bitterness and anger. While it is healthy to feel anger, you have to deal with it or it will take over your life. It is ok and normal to be angry. But when you make a decision, don't do it lightly, and commit yourself to that, knowing that you made the best decision for you based on your beliefs and your experiences. Don't second guess yourself. 

We all make bad decisions, and they can come back to bite us in the a$$, but if we don't make them, we are in limbo, confused, wondering, debating, hurting....... and the decisions we make may end up being the right and best one. We may end up getting what we want in the end, but if we don't try, we won't know.


“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” 
― Winston Churchill 

“There is only one thing that makes a dream impossible to achieve: the fear of failure.” 
― Paulo Coelho, The Alchemist 

“You must make a decision that you are going to move on. It wont happen automatically. You will have to rise up and say, ‘I don’t care how hard this is, I don’t care how disappointed I am, I’m not going to let this get the best of me. I’m moving on with my life.” 
― Joel Osteen, Your Best Life Now: 7 Steps to Living at Your Full Potential 

“You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.” 
― Maya Angelou 

“If you fell down yesterday, stand up today.” 
― H.G. Wells


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I like the quotes, but you misunderstand.

It isn't the fear of failure I am talking about. Let us say your spouse cheated on you and you forgave. And even more so, it was a successful reconciliation. You are almost absolutely positive she never cheated again (what is 100%?)

But you still feel empty inside. You wonder, in the dark of night, if your wife is reruning her own mental movies and laughing up her sleeve. If she isn't a bit contemptuous despite her words.

Or the other way. You leave, find another woman, and have a good relationship. But...it's not exactly like your OLD relationship. It isn't as bright and shiny. (Because YOU are no longer as bright and shiny) So you feel cheated. Is this it?


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I think that was a great article.

I've not seen a similar article that discusses the brutal reality, that even though you constantly hear about how "forgiveness is a gif you give yourself", that there is a terrible price you pay for forgiveness in reconciliation.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I have a question to ponder about the WS _understanding_ the pain, I don't think they really can??? 

For instance,
When I see breast cancer symbols, walks, survivors or recently diagnosed, I feel bad, have empathy but I _really_ can't know what they are facing or have overcome because I've never had breast cancer. I can't even begin to understand their pain. I've not experienced it. I haven't fought in that battle. 

So can a WS truly understand the price of forgiving and staying or really grasp the multitude of ways we are hurt and damaged by infidelity??? Or is it just lip service where they _think_ they know but don't? 

Ever watched that scene in Love Actually, where Emma Thompson thinks she is getting a necklace from her spouse, because she found it in his coat, and when she opens that gift in front of the family (and it's a music CD) with the realization that he is cheating, she has to go hide in the closet and cry.....that moment, when the pain is all over her face, cuts me to the quick. ....because we BS folks have been in that exact microsecond of _knowing_ we have been forsaken. We are one with that pain and shock.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> It is a crapshoot, no doubt. But life is not fair. SH*t happens.
> 
> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.”
> ― Winston Churchill
> ...


Yes. shyte happens, But that refers to something out of your control, like a car accident or a death or a job loss. 

An affair is totally within the cheaters control. If he/she is saying IT JUST HAPPENED, i would be very concerned that then it could JUST HAPPEN again. 

An affair takes planning, plotting, lots of thought and lots of deception. 

Also, I really do love your quotes. 

It seems they can apply to courage being about accepting THE FAILURE OF THE CHEATER AND THE FAILURE OF THE MARRIAGE. 

As well as the courage to try to reconcile despite the possibility of failure. 

I did have the courage to attempt the initial reconciliation. 

I now have the courage to ACCEPT THAT IT FAILED. 

I am not willing to spend the rest of my life doubting and mistrusting the person who I am suppose to be able to trust most in the world. 

He had his one chance, he blew it.

I may forgive him someday, but too soon would be tawdry and unrealistic and fake.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

JCD said:


> I like the quotes, but you misunderstand.
> 
> It isn't the fear of failure I am talking about. Let us say your spouse cheated on you and you forgave. And even more so, it was a successful reconciliation. You are almost absolutely positive she never cheated again (what is 100%?)
> 
> ...


I apologize if I was out of line for posting the quotes. I guess I don't understand. I am at the point now in my R where I don't feel empty inside. I don't worry about what my husband is thinking because I can feel he is right here with me. Should he ever have a randon thought, I cannot control that. He had an affair. He will always have that - I have accepted that. How he chooses to stop or play those memories is up to him. I know he doesn't want to think about it - he doesn't want to hear her name even. 

If I left my current marriage, it would be because I would not want the same in my next relationship. I want what I currently have. I could do without the affair, but it is what it is. I may still be off, so I will make that my final answer.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I apologize if I was out of line for posting the quotes.
> 
> I guess I don't understand. I am at the point now in my R where I don't feel empty inside. I don't worry about what my husband is thinking because I can feel he is right here with me.


No one said you were out of line for posting the quotes. 

They were good quotes, but they are open to interpretation. You see them your way and others see them their way. 

No harm done. 

You know it's interesting how our situations are so parallel. 

I also initially during our first R after he was anonymously outed felt things were going well, and my STBEH made many similar comments as your husband regarding contacting OW in response to something I said ( he didn't bring it up on his own)

Two months later he OOPS accidentally ran into her. He told me about it, but he failed to say he initiated contact. 

I again found out by an anonymous letter. 

A few months later I receive an anonymous photo of him getting a lap dance. Something I never thought my STBEH was even interested in because he always told me he thought it was sleazy. 

Some cheaters are just too damaged internally.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*


Sara8 said:



No one said you were out of line for posting the quotes.

Click to expand...

*


Sara8 said:


> I was being polite if I offended anyone.
> 
> *They were good quotes, but they are open to interpretation. You see them your way and others see them their way. * That is true.
> 
> ...


 I think yours is. I believe mine is different.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I apologize if I was out of line for posting the quotes. I guess I don't understand. I am at the point now in my R where I don't feel empty inside. I don't worry about what my husband is thinking because I can feel he is right here with me. Should he ever have a randon thought, I cannot control that. He had an affair. He will always have that - I have accepted that. How he chooses to stop or play those memories is up to him. I know he doesn't want to think about it - he doesn't want to hear her name even.
> 
> If I left my current marriage, it would be because I would not want the same in my next relationship. I want what I currently have. I could do without the affair, but it is what it is. I may still be off, so I will make that my final answer.


That is the wonderful thing about the leap of faith. When it pays off, it pays off big.

But you do realize that you lept off the cliff and you COULD have landed on your face. It didn't happen. Sometimes you hit the ground. Sometimes you fly.

I won't raise any niggling doubts in your mind. Let's just say that some couples struggle a lot harder with that issue then in your case.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I think yours is. I believe mine is different.


You may be right. It is a very good sign he outed himself. Very good. 



> They physically met once over a 5 day period. She lives half way across the country.


Wow yes that part is different. The OW in my case was a sex addict and very pushy. She contacted him first at work. She pushed for sex even though he tried to break it off twice. She was the aggressor. 

She is still stalking him, although he is not interested. 

Your spouse went cross country to see her? Wow that requires a lot of planning forethought and energy. My spouse was kinda lazy 'cause the OW was easy.

I was mainly referring to his comment about contacting here after you brought it up sounding eerily similar to a situation with my STBEH.



> My husband does not go to strip clubs. He is 100% transparent and I can account for every minute he is not with me. He makes sure of that.


Yes, that was a shocker for me, too, as well as some of his friends. He never seemed the type. He's too classy. Our mutual friends were also blindsided by that behavior. It's out of character for him, or so everyone thought. 

Yes. He, too, put a tracker on his car and I phone.

That's not difficult to usurp. He even called me right after getting his 5 minute lap dance and he sounded loving and sincere and everything seemed fine. Oh stupid me, I'm just so naive and easily duped.


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I apologize if I was out of line for posting the quotes. I guess I don't understand. I am at the point now in my R where I don't feel empty inside. I don't worry about what my husband is thinking because I can feel he is right here with me. Should he ever have a randon thought, I cannot control that. He had an affair. He will always have that - I have accepted that. How he chooses to stop or play those memories is up to him. I know he doesn't want to think about it - he doesn't want to hear her name even.
> 
> If I left my current marriage, it would be because I would not want the same in my next relationship. I want what I currently have. I could do without the affair, but it is what it is. I may still be off, so I will make that my final answer.


You are never out of line if you are adding to the discussion, lots of good thoughts and opinions here.
Everyone handles this differently, just like having surgery we all heal at our own pace, where you are at is not where I am at not yet anyhow.
I have forgiven my wife, I look forward to the day when this is a distant memory, something we look back on as a problem we overcame and solved together.
But there is a cost and each of us must pay it unfortunately the BS must pay the most at least to move on with the relationship (if there is a D than maybe the cheater paid the ultimate price up to them and how they feel some don't seem to care, others know the mistake they made)the BS health, self esteem, moral values etc all suffer (the article spells it out nicely). One thing that did come to my mind as a cost for both is time, the time spent in anguish, working so hard to move on to fix this, worrying about the fidelity of the offender and everything else that goes on during an affair and recovery. How much of that time could be better spent on each other, on the kids, on yourself, positive things that move us forward at a faster pace, no slowing down to fix repair or rebuild.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> You may be right. It is a very good sign he outed himself. Very good. (I agree)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 (if he gets a lap dance it will be from me. He was cheating Sarah - my husband was scewy like that too before he finally figured it out. Your husband never figured it out. It is not your fault. He is just a bad man)

Oh, Sarah - you do not know my story or the details. You really cannot stand it that a person may actually have overcome a betrayal and come out of it happy. You are a constant downer. You have yet to see the good and are so quick to relate everyone elses situation to yours. I felt just as much pain as you did. My husband was and is once again, the love of my life. I chose to take my life back and not cry about what I cannot change anymore. I am truly sorry your husband treated you the way he did. From what you have told us, he was not remorseful. SOME CHEATERS STOP CHEATING...SOME CHEATERS ARE REMORSEFUL. SOME MARRIAGES CAN SUCCEED AND FLOURISH AFTER AN AFFAIR....yours didn't. Let him go and be done with him. You deserve better and he is not worthy of your time or energy even thinking about or writing about him. I know from your earlier posts that you are a very good and loving woman who WILL one day be happy and find love again. It just won't be him. He is not worthy of you.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

gemjo said:


> I've just sent a link to this for my H to read, in the hopes he can see more clearly where my head and heart are right now.


I chose forgiveness...

I left the web page open on the laptop for my fWW to read later tonight for the same reason. 

A long time ago, I came to the conclusion regardless of D or R, I will never really "get over it". As I have said before... "It changes you at the core... forever".


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

One of the commenters within the article link posted this line, and wow, is it beautiful and accurate. It temporarily woke me out of my funky hiatus from TAM.

"Even though I'm a naturally happy, optimistic person, I will probably always deal with my secret daily sadness. This is my new normal, and it's all right."

I mean seriously, word.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Word indeed

I should stitch that on a pillow it's that good


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> (if he gets a lap dance it will be from me. He was cheating Sarah - my husband was scewy like that too before he finally figured it out. Your husband never figured it out. It is not your fault. He is just a bad man)
> 
> Oh, Sarah - you do not know my story or the details. You really cannot stand it that a person may actually have overcome a betrayal and come out of it happy. You are a constant downer. You have yet to see the good and are so quick to relate everyone elses situation to yours. I felt just as much pain as you did. My husband was and is once again, the love of my life. I chose to take my life back and not cry about what I cannot change anymore. I am truly sorry your husband treated you the way he did. From what you have told us, he was not remorseful. SOME CHEATERS STOP CHEATING...SOME CHEATERS ARE REMORSEFUL. SOME MARRIAGES CAN SUCCEED AND FLOURISH AFTER AN AFFAIR....yours didn't. Let him go and be done with him. You deserve better and he is not worthy of your time or energy even thinking about or writing about him. I know from your earlier posts that you are a very good and loving woman who WILL one day be happy and find love again. It just won't be him. He is not worthy of you.


Wow.

No I am only saying that seven months is too soon to know that all is well. 

And, you hit the nail on the head when you said "no one who has an affair is too classy for anything"

I do so agree, and again that is my point. Things are not always what they seem. 

The contacting OW came two months after the comment that was similar to the one you posted yesterday. 

Are you saying your husband made this comment two months ago. Well then that does change things, but that was not clear.

As for letting him go. I already did. He's the one who is being sticky, trying to hold up the divorce with an attorney who claims STBEH wants desperately to reconcile. 

why wouldn't he. I am so trusting and easy to dupe and he had so much freedom and I was so low maintenance compared to OW. 



> hiding an affair requires a lot of forethought and energy...your husband was not that lazy)


Oh I agree. All cheating requires attention energy forethought and planning and deception, all of them. 



> I get emails throughout the day from a gov't account that cannot be sent from any old server or phone).


Every five minutes you get one? Wow? Maybe you do know where he is every minute. Sorry. 

Also, you might want to google email spoofing. Or, phone spoofing. 

Ya' know you can even spoof a call from the white house, if you wanna' pay for it. 

Also, you might want to google services that help cheaters cheat. 

They will send authentic looking reservations and even the phone number at the top will go to their office where they pretend to be the hotel clerk. 

I used to be blind, but now I see. Thanks to TAM. 

I'm on your side. I don't trust cheaters. As has been pointed out on tam too many times. If a cheaters lips are moving they are likely lying.




> Let him go and be done with him. You deserve better and he is not worthy of your time or energy even thinking about or writing about him. I know from your earlier posts that you are a very good and loving woman who WILL one day be happy and find love again. It just won't be him. He is not worthy of you.


Thank you. As I said, I have let him go, but I am not past the pain of the infidelity. I know that processing that pain takes time. 

And you know what's so sad. When I read your posts I feel the same about you. Let him go, you deserve better. He's not worhty of you.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)




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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> You really cannot stand it that a person may actually have overcome a betrayal and come out of it happy. You are a constant downer. You have yet to see the good and are so quick to relate everyone elses situation to yours.



These comments are not only unfair but untrue. Sara has been very supportive of me in my threads even though I am in R. She simply helps BS's not put their head in the sand and I think she's a valuable contributor to this forum and the furthest thing from a "downer".

Sara, I really appreciate your opinions and insight.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> One of the commenters within the article link posted this line, and wow, is it beautiful and accurate. It temporarily woke me out of my funky hiatus from TAM.
> 
> "Even though I'm a naturally happy, optimistic person, I will probably always deal with my secret daily sadness. This is my new normal, and it's all right."
> 
> I mean seriously, word.


THIS. I can be in a great mood. Seriously great but feel this underlying sadness that never really fully leaves me. I hope this isnt the my new normal forever. As the saying goes...."this too shall pass..."


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Zanna said:


> These comments are not only unfair but untrue. Sara has been very supportive of me in my threads even though I am in R. She simply helps BS's not put their head in the sand and I think she's a valuable contributor to this forum and the furthest thing from a "downer".
> 
> Sara, I really appreciate your opinions and insight.


Thank you Zanna:

That is why I post here. If I can help open one person's eyes to something that sounds like a red flag, so they will not be as naive as I was, I feel I have helped someone at least think about the possibilities.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Zanna said:


> These comments are not only unfair but untrue. Sara has been very supportive of me in my threads even though I am in R. She simply helps BS's not put their head in the sand and I think she's a valuable contributor to this forum and the furthest thing from a "downer".
> 
> Sara, I really appreciate your opinions and insight.



:iagree:


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Theres some good stuff in this thread and I'm going to not try to swear so much, but damb it Sare8 that 1st reply had some good things that needed to be said.

Even though I have taken the cheater police approach and have been witness to a large degree of submission by my fWW, I also believe that alot of newbies need to hear that kind of shiiiii...stuff!

In so many cases its not until the wayward is let go that the betrayed can move on with or with out their wayward.

So my question is, "is there a cost for fogiveness"? With regards to infidelity?

I mean when I was a younger, the guy that shot me in a gang thing, could have been forgiven if I or some one else shot him, but instead no more shots were fired due to my forgiveness. 

Does there have to be a cost for forgiveness? Ya I think so. Is it up to the betrayed to dish out that cost IDK! But I have to belive that the cost is only measured by the wrong doer and what the karma bus delivers that wrong doer.


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## Simon Phoenix (Aug 9, 2010)

This has to be the thread of the year. This is exactly the feeling I've had since 2010. In her mind, I should have let it go and moved on by now. To me, all she really wants to do is rugsweep the whole thing and continue this facade that everything is fine. I think otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Cost of forgiveness? Your sanity?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Simon Phoenix said:


> This has to be the thread of the year. This is exactly the feeling I've had since 2010. In her mind, I should have let it go and moved on by now. To me, all she really wants to do is rugsweep the whole thing and continue this facade that everything is fine. I think otherwise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Simon,

I know exactly what you are saying... I sense your ??? that I wakes to every day.

My dday is Aug 2009, as the years pass there is really no-one left to talk to. My work EAP counselor "healed" me at 6 months and sent my on my way. My wife, while remorseful has completely shut down about her affairs after a year and 1/2 of counseling. If I say anything remotely related to her 6 years of cheating she goes into a depression that last for days. My family acts like it never happened. 

Us... the betrayed are left to "suck it up". We really never know the details of what we are to just "deal with". But must plod on like whatever...This is the reality of "FORGIVENESS".


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> JCD
> No. Everything he says is true. You are uncomfortable with the fact that you DID give up rights, justice and self respect to take a leap of faith in your wife.


I assume you are referring to my statement below:



> However the author leaves the Impression that to forgive and stay in the relationship would always violate personal beliefs and values and costs of pride, self-respect, dignity, and the ability to be honest.


With the above as the premise then everything that the author says is not true and I gave you a thread to prove that; see reprint below:




> In fact there is a thread on this forum in the Long Term Success In Marriage section that verifies my statement. The title of the thread is How We Overcame Adultery”


JCD, you need to read my post again. First you need to realize that the thread that I referred you to is not about me and my wife. Second you need get more facts before you make a judgment about me such as your post below:


> Quote of JCD
> You are uncomfortable with the fact that you DID give up rights, justice and self respect to take a leap of faith in your wife.







> Quotes by JCD
> In your case, it paid off and maybe in spades. Well done thou good and forgiving servant.
> 
> However there are certainly enough threads where the people in question do the EXACT SAME ACTIONS you did and get a boot in the face from their 'loved one' again.
> ...


JCD
I fully realize that there are situations where the “…good and faithful servant” gets a “boot in the face” from the flawed character and belief system of the offending spouse. I get it; there are people that will only drag you into the sewer if you stay with them. In those cases the author of the article makes a lot of very good points.

*My point is that is NOT ALWAYS the case. The thread that I mentioned and now the posts by LookingForTheSUn on this thread prove that point*.

I think it is misleading to just give one set of possibilities in the area of forgiving. That is what the article did; it gave very good points for one situation but his points are not true for another situation such as the posts that I referred to above.

JCD
If you got a “Boot in the Face” from a person that has a flawed character and belief system then I am on your side. Try not to view every situation and advice as those that are related to what the author presented. There are other situations and responses that the author’s article does not apply.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Quote of Sarah*Some cheaters are just too damaged internally.
> 
> 
> 
> *Quote of LookingForTheSun*I think yours is. I believe mine is different.


Here above are two different circumstances and two different Reponses.

*From what I can understand both women took the right action for their circumstances.*
Congratulations ladies!!


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Quote of LookingForTheSun
> I am at the point now in my R where I don't feel empty inside. I don't worry about what my husband is thinking because I can feel he is right here with me. Should he ever have a randon thought, I cannot control that. He had an affair. He will always have that - I have accepted that. How he chooses to stop or play those memories is up to him. I know he doesn't want to think about it - he doesn't want to hear her name even.
> 
> If I left my current marriage, it would be because I would not want the same in my next relationship. I want what I currently have. I could do without the affair, but it is what it is. I may still be off, so I will make that my final answer.
> ...



*LookingForThe Sun
You are and inspiration and encourager!
What you have done takes a lot of strength and courage*.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

That article was amazing. I have struggled as a Christian with this so much. My MC just says Grace is an undeserved gift. But what about me and my daily sadness, as it was called. 

Many days I think she just skates along like any other day, while I call her names to myself while driving to work everyday.

I really appreciate that post and this thread. I sent the article immediately to my WW and MC.

My WW has felt like she is doing everything to fix us and I need to do more to fill her cup so to speak. She feels like me giving her a second chance is great, but she needs more from me. This article and thread help me (and hopefully Her) see what I am dealing with and why I am giving all I can.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> Here above are two different circumstances and two different Reponses.
> 
> *From what I can understand both women took the right action for their circumstances.*
> Congratulations ladies!!


Mr Blunt, you nailed it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

RWB said:


> Simon,
> 
> I know exactly what you are saying... I sense your ??? that I wakes to every day.
> 
> ...


I think this is why many reconciliations don't succeed ultimately.

At the heart of every marriage is a well of love, respect, passion, strength and understanding. An affair poisons the well and unless the poison can be totally eradicated from the well every time love, respect or whatever is drawn from the well poison is withdrawn with it.

Have you considered further counselling for yourself, 6 months may not have been enough.
From your other posts it seems you and your wife do love each other but I think you need to excise this poison from your lives if you wish to be succesful in the long term.


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## Simon Phoenix (Aug 9, 2010)

RWB said:


> Simon,
> 
> I know exactly what you are saying... I sense your ??? that I wakes to every day.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, I have you beat. My work EAP counselor had me 'healed' after only eight sessions. What a miracle!

She freely talks about her forays, about how he provided her with the attention she wanted and still needs while expecting me to give her everything she wants. What were the consequences from her affair? She still has the house. The kids are still here. Family court is on her side if we split (no-fault state). She not only gets her cake but the ice cream, cookies, and pie as well. And if I don't like it, I can try to move on while subsidizing her mortgage and living on 60 percent of my income, if that. 

Where is my reward for not stepping out on her and having a revenge affair? I read and hear about all of the benefits of forgiving but I'm not seeing it at all. She can always look back to those days of lust, passion, and desires being met while I have...what?

Maybe I need a new counselor and attorney to tell me that things will be better on the other side. Who knows...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Son of Kong (Jul 12, 2012)

slater said:


> That article was amazing. I have struggled as a Christian with this so much. My MC just says Grace is an undeserved gift. But what about me and my daily sadness, as it was called.
> 
> Many days I think she just skates along like any other day, while I call her names to myself while driving to work everyday.
> 
> ...


All this talk hits home, some of things that I struggle with everyday.
Its already been said but all cheaters are selfish so they always want more, that's why they cheated in the first place, now that they have been caught you are the one that has to fill that need at least for now.
As time goes by you are the one left to just live with it, how long will the cheater let you keep bringing it up. Sooner or later they make you feel like you are the one who is wrong for not letting it go "how much more can I do" is a statement I have heard a little so I know my window for bearevement is closing and I will have to shut up and just live with it.
Other than sacrificing your life forgiveness for this level of pain and wrongdoing is about the most caring / loving thing you can do for a person.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

When we were trying R and going to MC, I asked a few questions that I needed answers to. When I asked about the beginning years of "us", when he had become "friends" with one of the OW, our MC stopped me and said "that's in the past",,, he wouldn't let me ask the question. 

I guess there's a time frame of your M that you can bring up the past,, yet it's ok for them to bring up that part of the past to have us remember the "good times". You can only bring up the good times, not the bad? How does this help the healing process?


I do believe our MC related to me that if I was to forgive, I was to " let go of the unknown",,, he had apologized right?? Apologized for what? I was supposed to forgive him without knowing what I was forgiving?

My turning point with our MC was when he sat right in front of me and told me "_Your H has done everything he is supposed to do, the rest of the hard work is now on you"_ I interpret that to mean it's time to "forgive and move forward". It's time to just take all the negative feelings and memories, wrap them all up in a ball and toss them to the bottom of your soul. And if you are wanting R, then you can't let those feelings rear their ugly head again.

I guess to me, the cost of forgiveness would be giving up my memory, my well being, myself.

I hear people having the "silent" struggles. Is this fair? Is this a healthy R? Why do we have to keep them silent? So we don't have to make them feel bad again? Some struggle everyday to protect the cheaters feelings,, while inside the BS is pushing all these feelings away, in the back of their minds, to protect what or whom? I can understand not making them relive it "everyday", but if some are having these feelings often, and keeping them silent, have they really forgiven them, or did they just say the words, without actually feeling forgiveness?

(I tried to put my opinion out there to not sound "bitter".)


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Here above are two different circumstances and two different Reponses.
> 
> *From what I can understand both women took the right action for their circumstances.*
> Congratulations ladies!!


My comment to Looking for the Sun is that 7 months out is way too early to claim she made the right decision. 

There hasn't been enough time for the cheater to prove he will remain faithful. 

Also, there is always the doubt factor. The fact that many times when a cheater is caught it only teaches them how to be more deceptive. 

As I said, I thought my initial R was going great, but an anonymous letter showed me otherwise. 

My point is that forgiving too soon, sometimes just emboldens the cheater.

Also, where does it guarantee that it takes strength and courage to stay with the cheater or the status quo. 

Maybe that is the easy way out. You know the inertia of familiarity, rather than striking out on your own. 

Maybe it takes strength and courage to give the cheater the boot and to take yourself out of your comfort zone. 

That is one part that bother me about those who advocate easy forgiveness. They always seem to be congratualing themselves for being courageous and strong. 

According to whom.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> When we were trying R and going to MC, I asked a few questions that I needed answers to. When I asked about the beginning years of "us", when he had become "friends" with one of the OW, our MC stopped me and said "that's in the past",,, he wouldn't let me ask the question...
> 
> 
> I do believe our MC related to me that if I was to forgive, I was to " let go of the unknown",,, he had apologized right?? Apologized for what? I was supposed to forgive him without knowing what I was forgiving?


i'm trying to understand this position that your MC took.... letting go of the unknown (?). are there circumstances where this is true? i've been stuck on wanting to get past the lies that my WH told as well as the parts of the truth of his infidelities that still have not come out (i.e., lies by omission).

there's a part of me that would love to let go of the unknown. the unconfessed parts of the story are killing me. but i don't seem to be able to do that.

and i'm not sure that i should. feels like the remedy for dishonesty is honesty.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

margrace said:


> i'm trying to understand this position that your MC took.... letting go of the unknown (?). are there circumstances where this is true? i've been stuck on wanting to get past the lies that my WH told as well as the parts of the truth of his infidelities that still have not come out (i.e., lies by omission).
> 
> there's a part of me that would love to let go of the unknown. the unconfessed parts of the story are killing me. but i don't seem to be able to do that.
> 
> and i'm not sure that i should. feels like the remedy for dishonesty is honesty.


I don't see where any circumstance ok's letting go of the unknown. With out facing the unknown, I don't see where you can have a true R. That's why I quit going to MC, and I quit trying to R. I decided to go to IC for "me", not "us". 

I am not trying to heal our marriage, but myself. 

I have not come to the stage where I can offer true forgiveness. I'm sure I will one day, but my forgiveness for him will be for me to heal and move on, alone.

He is willing to accept D over telling me the truth, or as I feel "filling in the blanks"... (his EA's are not our only issue). 

Without true remorse, honesty, openness and true forgiveness, you can't have a true R.


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

_He is willing to accept D over telling me the truth, or as I feel "filling in the blanks"_

wow, this statement of yours hit me. i guess that's ultimately what it comes down to, right?

and have you posed the situation to him in this way? i.e., which will it be? genuine honesty or divorce?


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

margrace said:


> _He is willing to accept D over telling me the truth, or as I feel "filling in the blanks"_
> 
> wow, this statement of yours hit me. i guess that's ultimately what it comes down to, right?
> 
> and have you posed the situation to him in this way? i.e., which will it be? genuine honesty or divorce?



He has been out of the house for 7 months now. He knows I'm not "settled" with what he has told me... he knows I feel there is more he hasn't told me... he knows I have been to a lawyer (actually had the date scheduled for D, but I had pneumonia and cancelled)... yet he hasn't offered any new info... 

He cheated on previous wife, he swears that she had no clue he was... even though she has emails from his AP's. She never got closure or confession from him. I've never asked her if she forgave him..


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## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

_Without true remorse, honesty, openness and true forgiveness, you can't have a true R. _

that feels like where i am. 

but these feelings don't always make complete sense to me: what will more details change? in some ways, nothing.

i just can't deal with lies to my face anymore. it hurts SO much.

i know that he is trying to spare himself from hurt by not volunteering the rest -- the discomfort of having to own still more humiliating, cowardly behavior.

after all that we have been through, i'm not interested in either of us hurting more without it being productive for R (or for deciding just to end it, if that's our conclusion). certainly he deserves all the pain that he feels, but the fact that he's in pain doesn't really take any of my pain away. so i'm not after that.

i'm just at the end of being able to take the dishonesty.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Sarah
> My comment to Looking for the Sun is that 7 months out is way too early to claim she made the right decision.


LookingForTheSun’s (LFTS) made the right decision for the last 7 months as her love for her husband has come back (see LFTS post below). I saw nothing in LFTS posts that indicates that her husband is not seriously rebuilding their marriage. Do you have information to prove otherwise?



> By LookingForTheSun
> My husband was and is once again, the love of my life.









> By Sarah
> My point is that forgiving too soon, sometimes just emboldens the cheater.


You are right if the cheater is not really a descent and sincere person. On the other hand, forgiveness can be a huge help to a cheater that is descent, sincere, and wants a second chance. Another fact is that forgiveness definitely frees the emotions of the innocent party and the sooner they forgive the better for them. Forgiving as soon as possible always helps the innocent party. Rather they stay with the cheater or not depend on the circumstances.





> By Sarah
> Also, where does it guarantee that it takes strength and courage to stay with the cheater or the status quo.
> 
> That is one part that bother me about those who advocate easy forgiveness. They always seem to be congratualing themselves for being courageous and strong.
> ...


When a person takes the HUGE hit of being cheated on, makes the hard decision to truly forgive and be vulnerable, and gives the cheating person that is sincere and truly remorseful a second chance, that takes COURAGE AND STRENGTH!

According to whom? To those that know, to those that have done it!

*Who are you referring to when you say “…those who advocate easy forgiveness”*


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

"I hear people having the "silent" struggles. Is this fair? Is this a healthy R? Why do we have to keep them silent? So we don't have to make them feel bad again? Some struggle everyday to protect the cheaters feelings,, while inside the BS is pushing all these feelings away, in the back of their minds, to protect what or whom? I can understand not making them relive it "everyday", but if some are having these feelings often, and keeping them silent, have they really forgiven them, or did they just say the words, without actually feeling forgiveness?"""


<---great statement and might I add that some days it seems so unfair that they cheated and get "rewarded" by our changes to improve the marriage and everything they said was lacking in the relationship to stray in the first place"---- and yes I know true R is not about jumping through hoops to please them,it's about healing ourselves yet some days it feels like showing the burglar where you keep the spare key hidden.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Numb In Ohio
> Without true remorse, honesty, openness and true forgiveness, you can't have a true R.
> 
> I am not trying to heal our marriage, but myself.


*Very good plan!* 
Under your circumstances I would encourage you to not let anyone stop you from taking care of yourself. Sometimes it comes down to just you and God.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Numb in Ohio said:


> My turning point with our MC was when he sat right in front of me and told me "_Your H has done everything he is supposed to do, the rest of the hard work is now on you"_ I interpret that to mean it's time to "forgive and move forward". It's time to just take all the negative feelings and memories, wrap them all up in a ball and toss them to the bottom of your soul. And if you are wanting R, then you can't let those feelings rear their ugly head again.


I'm just getting more and more hacked off at crappy marriage counselors. 

About 6 months before I joined this forum a very close buddy was going through his wife in an EA and eventually a PA. He was fortunate that he knew the PA was coming and broke off relations before it happened.

Their MC just wanted to blame him for the EA, and also wanted to get him to forgive before she quit doing her crap.

I've wondered if their marriage was one that could have been saved by this board. In hindsight I see so much of what he did was wrong, directed by the crappy MC. Him chasing her just made him seem needy and desperate. A 180 worked, but by then he didn't want a woman who'd had a PA on him.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

^^ This is where I had trouble with our counselor. I feel that he took whatever my H said as the truth,, and since my H can cry on que, that he was feeling so much remorse for everything.

He didn't pick up on his lines. He just assumed he was doing everything he needed to , and since I wasn't just falling at his feet, I was in the wrong by not forgiving. 

Instead of giving him and I info on emotional abuse, making him accountable and offering me support for it, he would give me paperwork on forgiveness. He didn't understand that I couldn't forgive the unknown, and until I started healing from the abuse, how did he expect me to want to go right back in that atmosphere with him?


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> *LookingForThe Sun
> You are and inspiration and encourager!
> What you have done takes a lot of strength and courage*.


Thank you


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> ^^ This is where I had trouble with our counselor. I feel that he took whatever my H said as the truth,, and since my H can cry on que, that he was feeling so much remorse for everything.
> 
> He didn't pick up on his lines. He just assumed he was doing everything he needed to , and since I wasn't just falling at his feet, I was in the wrong by not forgiving.
> 
> Instead of giving him and I info on emotional abuse, making him accountable and offering me support for it, he would give me paperwork on forgiveness. He didn't understand that I couldn't forgive the unknown, and until I started healing from the abuse, how did he expect me to want to go right back in that atmosphere with him?


Many folks assume so much. It is a shame. They waste our time thinking they know what is going on inside of us. 

The unknown part is what I am having difficulty with. How can we forgive what we do not know? I believe they think the things they did were so obvious, anyone would recognize them. That is incorrect. 

I never had affairs. I did not have reason to learn to be secretive and stealthy. I did not know the signs of infidelity. Of course, I knew some things. 

I think I chose not to see them. I could not bring myself to believe that a woman who was so concerned about her outward appearance to others, would actually do the things I thought I was seeing. It didn't make sense to me.

I think folks want us to blanket forgive and I am not about that. Maybe some day I will be able, not yet.

Sometimes I think a full disclosure might help. Unfortunately, how could I believe anything now without proof? She, like quite a few folks, have the idea, "Oh, he'll get over it. What's the big deal anyway? He didn't want me or he would have done something different." 


This part is just me getting it out. It is not directed at anyone here.

I'm sorry if I am stupid or naive or uneducated. I did not know what you were unhappy about. You would not tell me and I am not about to try reading your mind. I have been wrong many times trying that. 

Telling me in an intimate conversation, then actively working on the issues with me, would have been the best way to go. Anything other than that tells me you, not me, had no intentions of fixing anything. At that point, it is time for you to get out. 

Don't hang around while you are looking for your soul mate or whatever. Yeah, soul mate; how could you be anyone's soul mate? You don't have the guts to be honest with yourself. You do what you want without regard for the one who loves you. You make excuses so you can believe the voices in your ear and in your head. You convince yourself these voices are right. 

Why did you get married in the first place? Was it, "Oh, I think I'll give it a try. Maybe it will work out?" It is a sickness in my book. I did not want to give anything a try. Maybe I made a mistake because of a lack of knowledge or experience. It was not because I wanted to, "just try it again, maybe it will work this time."

I went through a divorce before. It was devastating. She did too and said it was devastating for her. Maybe that was a lie also. After that, why would someone want to have uncertainty and get married again?

Thanks for letting me rant. This was not directed at anyone who commented. These were my thoughts and this thread is soo good, I had to get this out.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*


Sara8 said:



My comment to Looking for the Sun is that 7 months out is way too early to claim she made the right decision.

Click to expand...

*


Sara8 said:


> Maybe to early for you and your situation. Not for mine. Not for my husbands actions, his true remorse and not for my heart and soul. I either sh*t or get off the pot. I decided to not waste anymore time drowning in my sorrows for something I did not do or cannot change. I never doubted myself and have always been a strong supporter of myself. I make a decision and I go with it. More times than not it is the right one. And my heart was in it.
> 
> *There hasn't been enough time for the cheater to prove he will remain faithful. * You could wait around forever waiting for the shoe to drop or you can decide that that they are done cheating. Some day has to be the last time. If it is not, it will be ugly, but I believe it is based on actions I have never seen before. It was very ugly for awhile and I think his world came falling down and crashing all around him - he needed that jolt. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
> 
> ...


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> ^^ This is where I had trouble with our counselor. I feel that he took whatever my H said as the truth,, and since my H can cry on que, that he was feeling so much remorse for everything.
> 
> He didn't pick up on his lines. He just assumed he was doing everything he needed to , and since I wasn't just falling at his feet, I was in the wrong by not forgiving.
> 
> Instead of giving him and I info on emotional abuse, making him accountable and offering me support for it, he would give me paperwork on forgiveness. He didn't understand that I couldn't forgive the unknown, and until I started healing from the abuse, how did he expect me to want to go right back in that atmosphere with him?


My Ic last year did the same thing-handed me some paperwork about forgiveness.... I said "what the hell do you want me to do with this??? Seriously, while he is STILL having an affair Im supposed to FORGIVE him???" She said forgiveness is for you not him-which I realize but its impossible WHILE the sin is still being committed. I never saw her again. I dont get it. How do they suppose thats possible? I guess she was trying to get me to 'nice' him out of the affair. Ha.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Many folks assume so much. It is a shame. They waste our time thinking they know what is going on inside of us. .......
> 
> 
> 
> Don't hang around while you are looking for your soul mate or whatever. Yeah, soul mate; how could you be anyone's soul mate? You don't have the guts to be honest with yourself. You do what you want without regard for the one who loves you. You make excuses so you can believe the voices in your ear and in your head. You convince yourself these voices are right.


I think your anger is healthy. And yes, people who insist other BS's forgive scare me. 

I don't care either way. Forgive if one wishes, I don't try to talk them out of it. 

SOME, who have forgiven a cheater seem to be so proud of themselves and in need of convincing non forgivers how they will never heal if they don't forgive.

It's all whistling in the wind, IMO. 

The forgivers are trying to convince themselves they did the right thing 'cause they too hate looking over their shoulders. 

The ones who are in R and admit they can't forgive.

Well, ya' know what. I think they will be okay because they are NOT in la la land, anymore. Like I was.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I think your anger is healthy. And yes, people who insist other BS's forgive scare me.
> 
> I don't care either way. Forgive if one wishes, I don't try to talk them out of it.
> 
> ...


This is why I know I am not yet able to forgive...I know I am still looking over my shoulder to see what's going to happen next. 

I suppose I will get to the capacity to forgive him, this will only be to help "me" heal, not release him from hurting me. Do we just forgive them when we are through our grieving stage, to release that black cloud hanging over us, when we're just exhausted from our own emotions?

Another thought:: Will the forgiveness factor be the same with abuse? Mental, sexual, verbal, financial abuse stays in my mind constant. I am finally to a point where I don't carry my phone around the house with me, or outside, and I may even run to the store without it, not having to be on call for him. 

Will my forgiveness come before I am even healed...

But then again,, the forgiveness is for me to move on,, so in a way maybe it's just forgiveness for myself for being that person who "allowed" him to mistreat me.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> This is why I know I am not yet able to forgive...I know I am still looking over my shoulder to see what's going to happen next.
> 
> I suppose I will get to the capacity to forgive him, this will only be to help "me" heal, not release him from hurting me. Do we just forgive them when we are through our grieving stage, to release that black cloud hanging over us, when we're just exhausted from our own emotions?
> 
> ...


One of my first serious boyfriend's in an agreed exclusive relationship cheated on me and not having any history I dumped him pronto. 

He wanted to get back together and dropped the OW like a hot potato, but again, not having anything invested I just left, and I don't regret it. 

Years later we did meet, and I was actually friendly toward him. I was able to be friendly because I simply did not care about him on any level anymore. 

He asked for forgiveness for being a total jerk and I told him I forgave him. I meant it too. 

My main concern is forgiving too soon. IMO, as others have said you need to reach a stage of indifference so you can forgive with a clear head. 

Also you raise an excellent point about would a counselor ask an physically abused wife to forgive a wife beater. 

I don't know, but cheating is considered by many psychiatrists to be a passive aggressive form of abuse. 

Cheating is far more damaging that negotiating a divorce.

Still I don't feel grandiose about my ability to forgive and I would understand if someone felt they could NEVER forgive a cheater.

Cheating is soul stealing and damaging to the betrayed on so many levels....to many.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

I don't know, but I feel that the article and indeed a large number of people on here equate forgiveness to reconciling. I don't think its healthy to bear grudges but its understandable. Anger and jealousy are primal human emotions. 



Sara8 said:


> IMO, as others have said you need to reach a stage of indifference so you can forgive with a clear head.


Not necessarily. I think it is very much possible to forgive someone while you are still attached to them. Again, people usually get confused with forgiveness and acceptance for the want of a better word.

If you want to know a different story of a different sort of betrayal, my own brother betrayed me financially(we were business partners). I didn't accept it and still don't. But I did forgive him, then and there. Does that mean I'd want to continue to deal with him on a financial level? NO.. Does that mean that I don't talk to him and lash out at him in anger at every opportunity? No. Does that mean that I love him any less ? No

But I guess the initial reaction of anyone is a "why me?" and that is definitely due to the hurt ego and it takes time for it to heal enough to get to the point where you can say "why not?" and move on.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> I don't know, but I feel that the article and indeed a large number of people on here equate forgiveness to reconciling. I don't think its healthy to bear grudges but its understandable. Anger and jealousy are primal human emotions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't equate forgiveness to reconciling. I agree you can reconcile WITHOUT forgiving and you can forgive without reconciling. 

I don't think it makes someone a better person if they do, or a bad person if they refuse to. 

It's simply a choice. 

I don't know what type of financial betrayal your talking about, but a brother is not the same as a spouse. 

With that said, I think you are sugarcoating, and in denial, if you say you hold no resentment for his theft from you. 

Words are just words. It's easy to say something one does not mean. 

For example, my STBEH always said he would never cheat.......and then he got caught.

Edited to ADD:

People are people. 

And, most humans follow the same script with only slight variations. Ask any shrink, and marriage counselors even agree that cheaters follow a script that is so close to each other that it seems unreal But it is not.

False Words are easy to show to others. True feelings are easy to hide.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

*I don't think it makes someone a better person if they do, or a bad person if they refuse to. * But from all of your other posts you seem to think that a person is weak when the choose to forgive. Aren't you then placing yourself higher than others because you chose not to? 

*It's simply a choice. * Yes - and a person can choose and be done with it.


*With that said, I think you are sugarcoating, and in denial, if you say you hold no resentment for his theft from you.* Why are you so quick and "certain" to tell people what they feel? Unless you walk in another persons shoes.....just because you have chosen not to forgive at this time does not mean that others can't. 

*Words are just words. It's easy to say something one does not mean. * you can be so insulting to others - so sad. 

*For example, my STBEH always said he would never cheat.......and then he got caught.[/QUOTE]* Everyone is not your STBEH.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> I'm just getting more and more hacked off at crappy marriage counselors.
> 
> About 6 months before I joined this forum a very close buddy was going through his wife in an EA and eventually a PA. He was fortunate that he knew the PA was coming and broke off relations before it happened.
> 
> ...


Agreed. 

And yes a 180 works amazingly well. I have filed and my husband is suddenly towing the line, but it's too late. There were too many lies and I was fed up.

Remember the 180 can't be a threat. It has to reflect how you really feel. You can always change your mind, if the cheater does something so great that you decide that maybe you should consider to reconcile. 

Still, If someone is doing a 180 to try to get their spouse back, it will likely fail because the cheater will see through that.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> With that said, I think you are sugarcoating, and in denial, if you say you hold no resentment for his theft from you.
> 
> .


Why do you think I'm in denial, Sara? I thought I made it abundantly clear, forgivenes!= Acceptance. I don't resent him at all, he did it. Its over, I've learnt my lesson. No point in holding on to anger like a life line. 

I think you should start really letting go of your husband. Its pretty evident that you still are bitter about how things are going. Perfectly normal, but ask yourself if you still want to be angry a year or two down the road. Forgiveness, of course is not necessary. But you know what they say, its good for your soul  Its actually quite true.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Why do you think I'm in denial, Sara? I thought I made it abundantly clear, forgivenes!= Acceptance. I don't resent him at all, he did it. Its over, I've learnt my lesson. No point in holding on to anger like a life line.
> 
> I think you should start really letting go of your husband. Its pretty evident that you still are bitter about how things are going. Perfectly normal, but ask yourself if you still want to be angry a year or two down the road. Forgiveness, of course is not necessary. But you know what they say, its good for your soul  Its actually quite true.


Well, have you been to IC about it. 

I know a thing or two about denial, and most humans are very good at it. 

As for letting go of my anger. 

No thanks. I think it has served me well. 

I see people kissing their cheater's butts, and It's seems so degrading. It's gonna' come out someday someway. 

It's like the milk toast at the post office who finally goes postal. 

They are only human, not gods. 

My anger prevents me from coddling my cheating spouse and helped me file for Divorce. 

I cherish my anger and I'm gonna' keep it. Being a nice wife, got me cheated on by a liar. I like being angry. I rarely got angry prior. 

Anger is my new motivation. Like denial MAY be yours. Embrace your denial if it works for you.

He's fighting it and wants to reconcile, so he's the one who needs to let go. Don't you think?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Still, If someone is doing a 180 to try to get their spouse back, it will likely fail because the cheater will see through that.


I agree fully. The 180 worked so well because he really was done with her. When it became clear that she didn't care that she was caught in an EA and wouldn't quit, he pulled back. When it became a PA, he was done. He filed and walked away not looking back.


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