# Emotional Abuse...?



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I was wondering...

What is the difference between being emotionally abused, and just being hurt and upset that your partner is angry at you...??
Meaning, how do you know that you are being abused, as opposed to having a conflict where one of you doesn't get your way, and responds angrily about it, and should be free to express that...??

When does a person's right to express their frustration over something going wrong in their relationship cross over into actually being abusive...? Maybe the other partner is just overly sensitive...or is easily hurt when the angry partner is expressing their anger...is that ever possible?

I know that there are many different relating styles and fighting styles for couples...so I'm wondering what the difference is between a basic incompatibility of expression between the partners and actual emotional abuse.

How can you tell when someone is being emotionally abusive, and not just upset that they aren't getting what they want from their partner...??


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

So, *this article* will help you understand what emotional abuse is. There are many others on the web if you want other information, but I bookmarked this one a while back because it's so thorough.

At the same time, I have a very big problem with the premise of your question. For you to say.....



LisaDiane said:


> Meaning, how do you know that you are being abused, as opposed to having *a conflict where one of you doesn't get your way, and responds angrily about it,* and should be free to express that...??
> 
> How can you tell when someone is being emotionally abusive, and not just *upset that they aren't getting what they want from their partner...??*


.....and not see the problem with those statements all by themselves, it doesn't matter if they constitute specific emotional abuse or not.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

After reading my response, I realize I should have been more specific.

I was trying to point out that not getting their way so they respond angrily and upset because they're not getting what they want are immature mindset and disturbing behavior toward someone. Nobody should tolerate that kind of childish, temper tantrum from a grown person. So, it doesn't matter if the behavior falls under the definition of emotional abuse.

I'm focusing on identifying the behavior itself, as opposed to focusing on how the behavior affects the other partner.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

IMO, abuse occurs regularly with the same person; quite often knowingly but I have stopped giving benefit of the doubt for ignorance, that is, their pretending not to know the effect their behavior has on you.

A person can be deemed abusive in a one time encounter. And its effect may be material enough that you will want to report it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In my experience the word abuse is greatly overused these days. Its sad because those who are really being abused may not be taken so seriously.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

So, during arguments, the line is crossed when someone screams, name-calls, uses cruel language, says things designed to hurt the other person or to make them feel ashamed or degraded, makes verbal threats, belittles, insults, etc. There are more examples of emotional abuse, but you asked specifically about arguments.

Having an "aggressive fighting style" or being an "aggressive communicator" is not an excuse... it just means someone is an asshole and hasn't bothered to do anything about it. There is a difference between assertive communication, passive communication, and aggressive communication. Assertive communication is the ideal spot and passive or aggressive people CAN learn that skill. Everyone should also learn how to fight fair and should learn conflict resolution.

So that involves things such as

Focusing on one problem at a time
Focus on the problem, not the person
No yelling, no name-calling, no insults, no mocking, no stonewalling.
Taking turns talking
Reflective listening
"I" or "I feel..." statements
Time-outs
Focusing on finding a resolution/compromise
If day to day you feel like you're walking on eggshells around your partner or you are scared to get into an argument with them, something is wrong.

For HSP (I'm married to one), yes they CAN get upset even if the other person did absolutely nothing wrong. If the other person isn't doing any of the things I listed above, then the "sensitive" spouse would benefit from therapy for CBT and DBT. Even with all the therapy in the world they may still feel hurt easily, but they will know the other person didn't do anything wrong, will be able to self-soothe, etc.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> In my experience the word abuse is greatly overused these days. Its sad because those who are really being abused may not be taken so seriously.


I agree. It seems everyone's ex was an abusive narcissist anymore.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Love is respect has a distinct trend in pronouns but can be thorough. Words can hurt as much as hands and shouldn't be used as a weapon. I'm not sure when a word slipping in the heat of the moment crosses the line from mistake to abuse but if it is a habit, then it probably is.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Enigma32 said:


> I agree. It seems everyone's ex was an abusive narcissist anymore.


and with BPD or PTSD, another very misused word.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> I was wondering...
> 
> What is the difference between being emotionally abused, and just being hurt and upset that your partner is angry at you...??
> Meaning, how do you know that you are being abused, as opposed to having a conflict where one of you doesn't get your way, and responds angrily about it, and should be free to express that...??
> ...


Like @StarFires let me start off with a link to Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse website, and specifically her page about Signs of Verbal and Emotional Abuse: Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site)!

Next, I'll give you the shortest answer I can think of: by asking this question, are you aware of the healthy way to be angry? I ask that because there was a time in my life when I had never, ever SEEN healthy anger and thus I had no clue that anger even could be healthy...much less "how to do it." At that time, in my mind, anger was "bad" and to be avoided at all costs, until it would build up to such an extent that it was an explosion and all hell broke loose! LOL So yeah...that style of anger was bad and was not healthy. But that was all I knew!

So first, I would say to answer your question, you would need to know what healthy anger is. Let me start with this: anger is a feeling just like any other emotion. It is neither good nor bad, and it is just something that normal human being feel. Anger is a signal to explore the feelings and thoughts that something is "not okay" with you, and if you pay particular attention, you might notice the physical things that you do that indicate you "feel" angry. For example, for me...I clench my teeth, hold my breath, and feel it in my chest (I'm literally trying to "hold it in"). If I notice those three physical cues, I ask myself "Is there something with which I am not okay? Is something bothering me? Am I angry?"

Healthy anger would be discovering that I am not okay with something, and then expressing it right then and there while it is still fairly small and there are many options to address it. For example, if I am not okay with something my Beloved Buddhist says or does, I address it. I might be a bit upset, but that's okay--I accept that I'm angry and even say to him that I am angry about this. Then I use this format: "When you *_*, I think *__, I feel _*, And so I'm going to request *_*. Are you willing to *_*?" Now I am a person who's pretty emotional, and when my emotions are in high gear, my thinking/logical side is disengaged, so again, I just admit that right out loud and accept it. Thus I can often tell that I FEEL hurt/angry but my mind goes in circles kind of feeling it for a while until I can pinpoint what triggered it, what I think in my head, can verbalize how I feel, and then think of a request that would resolve it. I TRY but I'm not super good at it. Meanwhile, I give myself space to be imperfect, and I keep it focused on the thing that set it off (that wasn't okay with me) and the present. It's not about the other person being a "Bad" person, or blame or anything that happened in the past (although sometimes it seems like those things mix in there!). Keep it focused and safe for your partner AND make a request for what you need in order to resolve it. THAT is healthy (-ish) anger. 

Soooo...now to answer your question: no one is perfect, and thus I don't think people are perfect in their anger responses. But if you see anger kind of going like what I described above, it's pretty healthy and that is not abuse. If someone slips a little, recognizes it, takes personal responsibility, and you can see effort to not be that way--it was a mistake and those happen. If it is a pattern, and the pattern is regularly blaming you for their behavior, or calling you names, or ridiculing you, or humiliating you, or twisting your words...that is abuse. 

Now as you know, I've been abused in my life. When I was a child I was physically abused, and by that I mean that my mom hit me every day with a broom handle, a rolling pin, a hair brush, a piece of wood, a wooden spoon...whatever she could lay her hands on. She would scream at me for an hour (mostly religious stuff) and then hit me until she (the grown up) got tired from hitting me so much. When I got married, I figured if he didn't ball up his fist and punch me, it wasn't abuse! Imagine my surprise to discover that pushing, squeezing, slapping, physically restraining, blocking, throwing things, and kicking our pets was also physical abuse. Abuse is any action that intentionally harms or injures (or threatens to harm or injure) another person...one party is seeking to control the other through abuse. Think about it: if a woman verbally abuses a man, she might blame her unhappiness on him, call him names, and humiliate him ... why? So that he will walk on eggshells and do what she says! 

Finally you're question: How can you tell if it's abuse or just someone being too sensitive or someone who is hurt and angry? Well first, ask yourself if it's healthy anger. If it honestly was pretty healthy anger and the person is all hurt by it anyway, it is conceivable they are being sensitive...and that's okay! Just recognize "I'm feeling sensitive and it will pass" and then chill for a little until it passes. If it is *not* a healthy anger, then ask yourself it it is intent or threat to harm...because they want to "MAKE" something happen (or make someone do something). There's yer answer!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

StarFires said:


> After reading my response, I realize I should have been more specific.
> 
> I was trying to point out that not getting their way so they respond angrily and upset because they're not getting what they want are immature mindset and disturbing behavior toward someone. Nobody should tolerate that kind of childish, temper tantrum from a grown person. So, it doesn't matter if the behavior falls under the definition of emotional abuse.
> 
> I'm focusing on identifying the behavior itself, as opposed to focusing on how the behavior affects the other partner.


THANK YOU for the link!

I see what you are saying here and in your previous post, and in a perfect world, no one would act poorly when they are hurt, disappointed, and/or angry, but is that really realistic...? How else do most people react to those issues when they come up - there are the feelings, and then there is the coping with/expression of the feelings...and then for the partner, the coping with their expression of their feelings.
I mean, don't most people need to vent when they feel angry? Is that always abusive?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> In my experience the word abuse is greatly overused these days. Its sad because those who are really being abused may not be taken so seriously.


I agree in many cases as well, that's why I'm wondering where the "line" is...how do you know?
As @Affaircare mentions in her post, physical abuse is EASY to recognize...emotional, not so much.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

There is a big difference in experiencing emotional abuse v. someone just behaving poorly. Emotional abuse is very poor treatment and is damaging. Repeated gaslighting, put downs, rages, emotional manipulation, punishing emotional behaviors such as extreme and long lasting withdrawal, withholding, silent treatment...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> I agree. It seems everyone's ex was an abusive narcissist anymore.


I do hear this alot, and as someone who's father WAS a textbook Narcissist, I can see that most people have SOME narcissistic traits (we all do) that are painful to deal with, but that doesn't make them a Narcissist.

Now that doesn't mean they aren't hurtful to be with - all selfish behavior isn't caused by malignant narcissism. Sometimes it's just plain old self-centeredness.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> I do hear this alot, and as someone who's father WAS a textbook Narcissist, I can see that most people have SOME narcissistic traits (we all do) that are painful to deal with, but that doesn't make them a Narcissist.
> 
> Now that doesn't mean they aren't hurtful to be with - all selfish behavior isn't caused by malignant narcissism. Sometimes it's just plain old self-centeredness.


That's why I think concentrating on behaviors is more important than concentrating on labels. If someone was accused of being a narcissist, I would ask, what does he / she do. It is sad that there are more than 50 ways to humiliate a partner. And with verbal abuse, none of them are criminal.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

bobert said:


> So, during arguments, the line is crossed when someone screams, name-calls, uses cruel language, says things designed to hurt the other person or to make them feel ashamed or degraded, makes verbal threats, belittles, insults, etc. There are more examples of emotional abuse, but you asked specifically about arguments.
> 
> Having an "aggressive fighting style" or being an "aggressive communicator" is not an excuse... it just means someone is an asshole and hasn't bothered to do anything about it. There is a difference between assertive communication, passive communication, and aggressive communication. Assertive communication is the ideal spot and passive or aggressive people CAN learn that skill. Everyone should also learn how to fight fair and should learn conflict resolution.
> 
> ...


This is an EXCELLENT post!! It's really clear and helpful, and full of valuable information (like most of what you write here)!!! THANK YOU!

For the bolded part...THIS is my problem - I feel like this alot with most people I care alot about, even if they've never been angry with me! I am having trouble knowing when I've caused my own fear and pain, and when someone else's behavior wrongly caused me to be afraid of them...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Affaircare said:


> Like @StarFires let me start off with a link to Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse website, and specifically her page about Signs of Verbal and Emotional Abuse: Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site)!
> 
> Next, I'll give you the shortest answer I can think of: by asking this question, are you aware of the healthy way to be angry? I ask that because there was a time in my life when I had never, ever SEEN healthy anger and thus I had no clue that anger even could be healthy...much less "how to do it." At that time, in my mind, anger was "bad" and to be avoided at all costs, until it would build up to such an extent that it was an explosion and all hell broke loose! LOL So yeah...that style of anger was bad and was not healthy. But that was all I knew!
> 
> ...


THANK YOU so much for posting!!!!
This is a fantastic post just about ANGER and dealing with conflict! Maybe you should teach a course...!!

I think you expressed it perfectly with what I bolded - One person is intentionally trying to control the other through abuse and fear - I think THAT might be the distinction that I couldn't put my finger on when I was analyzing the issue. 
Sometimes I also think it's when the person I'm having a conflict with is determined to invalidate and even obliterate my feelings about what is happening, as if I don't exist...or as if they don't want me to exist if I am going to have my own perspective and feelings about something, and that challenges them. 
And that always hurts me.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Livvie said:


> There is a big difference in experiencing emotional abuse v. someone just behaving poorly. Emotional abuse is very poor treatment and is damaging. Repeated gaslighting, put downs, rages, emotional manipulation, punishing emotional behaviors such as extreme and long lasting withdrawal, withholding, silent treatment...


TRUE!! And part of what I've been wondering is, when is that poor behavior damaging because of the baggage that _I_ bring to the relationship...? When do I know that _I_ need to take responsibility for MY reactions, instead of blaming someone else's reactions to the conflict we are having??


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> This is an EXCELLENT post!! It's really clear and helpful, and full of valuable information (like most of what you write here)!!! THANK YOU!
> 
> For the bolded part...THIS is my problem - *I feel like this alot with most people I care alot about, even if they've never been angry with me!* I am having trouble knowing when I've caused my own fear and pain, and when someone else's behavior wrongly caused me to be afraid of them...


OP, no sane person_ likes_ people being angry with them. But if you're always afraid of making people angry, or are often worried they are angry or will be angry with you, that may be something inside you. It's possible that you just have a conflict-avoidant personality. How that happened is likely steeped in your family of origin and may be related to low self-esteem. If you think that's what's going on, then a good therapist might be your best option. They can help you figure out how to improve your self-esteem, set good personal boundaries, and recognize and deal with conflict in a healthy way.

Conflict in a relationship should not default to being _combat_. A healthy person can most often handle conflict without turning things into a war with a winner and a loser. An unhealthy person will tend to jump to combat - and may use emotionally and/or verbally abusive tactics to win - over even small conflicts.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> OP, no sane person_ likes_ people being angry with them.


That would be a very narrow definition of sane. I've noticed moments when people get giddy because they pissed someone off. In narcissistic vocabulary, that is called "supply." Parents do it to their kids; spouse to their partners; colleagues with one another and so on. I don't think anyone would call most of them "insane." This is what we need to get used to. Someone may emotionally abuse you, but others who have some reason to continue a relationship with this person, if asked, would say that "they don't know about that."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> Sometimes I also think it's when the person I'm having a conflict with is determined to invalidate and even obliterate my feelings about what is happening, as if I don't exist...or as if they don't want me to exist if I am going to have my own perspective and feelings about something, and that challenges them.
> And that always hurts me.


Of course it does. And it should. Well, let me backtrack a bit. As a child of a narcissist, you are automatically at a disadvantage because you learned unhealthy reactions and learned to invalidate yourself - to avoid backlash. Have you gone to therapy to deal with it? That's my #1 advice to you. 

I'm married to a narcissist, but it's very subtle. My daughter, who on the whole has a really healthy self-love (thanks to my overt efforts), still has lots of ways in which she doubts herself, holds herself back, even blames herself when she shouldn't, all because of growing up learning to avoid backlash from her father. She goes to therapy and it's the only way she's been able to learn to say no to him (something I can't do after 40 years with him).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> TRUE!! And part of what I've been wondering is, when is that poor behavior damaging because of the baggage that _I_ bring to the relationship...? When do I know that _I_ need to take responsibility for MY reactions, instead of blaming someone else's reactions to the conflict we are having??


I tell people in situations like yourself to picture yourself in your perfect relationship, where you never feel hurt, never doubt yourself, never think you have to go along to get along. What would THAT version of you do in a particular situation? If you didn't have to worry about someone's reaction? That will give you a better idea of what a healthy relationship would look like.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

turnera said:


> I tell people in situations like yourself to picture yourself in your perfect relationship, where you never feel hurt, never doubt yourself, never think you have to go along to get along. What would THAT version of you do in a particular situation? If you didn't have to worry about someone's reaction? That will give you a better idea of what a healthy relationship would look like.


That would look like a relationship where you didn't give a damn about the other person.

Some amount of going along to get along is a necessary skill whenever the number of people in the room exceeds 1. Never doubting yourself to me indicates a serious lack of self awareness in your own fallibility. Everyone I ever met who didn't doubt themselves was a fool or a psychopath. 

I get what you're trying to say, but this sounds just as unhealthy as the person who never speaks up for fear of ruining the peace.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I was talking about how you feel in your head about it. If your spouse is making you feel uncomfortable, wrong, whatever, take a moment to picture a perfect relationship and picture how that conversation would go. That would help you understand if what you have is healthy.

When I say you don't have to worry about their reaction, I'm talking about the abused person making a choice based on not provoking more abuse. Like if I wanted to go visit my daughter but I thought my husband would give me grief for not being all about him, I might tell my daughter I don't feel well enough to come visit, just to avoid provoking that expected reaction from my husband. But if I stopped to picture, say my next door neighbor, who I assume is in a healthy relationship, it wouldn't even occur to her to say no to going to visit her daughter out of fear of her husband's reaction; she would just say yes, tell her husband she was going, and go. And he would be fine with it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> That would look like a relationship where you didn't give a damn about the other person.
> 
> Some amount of going along to get along is a necessary skill whenever the number of people in the room exceeds 1. Never doubting yourself to me indicates a serious lack of self awareness in your own fallibility. Everyone I ever met who didn't doubt themselves was a fool or a psychopath.
> 
> I get what you're trying to say, but this sounds just as unhealthy as the person who never speaks up for fear of ruining the peace.


I think you are misunderstanding what she's actually saying. She is using that as a method to see how far off your reactions are from what you would do if you weren't full of fear in that situation with someone.

YOU are coming from a place of very little fear, so yes, for YOU, that way of relating could drift into some unhealthy self-centeredness.
But to use it as an internal gauge of how your True Self would act, to help you step out from behind that "mirror" you are normally used to holding up in relationships, it's a terrific tool for self-awareness, I think!!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> I think you are misunderstanding what she's actually saying. She is using that as a method to see how far off your reactions are from what you would do if you weren't full of fear in that situation with someone.


I'm not currently equipped to express this in another way, but I wanted to add to this the value of options. In a relationship sense, I don't mean having another potential spouse up your sleeve, it's more about an internal knowing that you have choices with your actions/thoughts/feelings. I don't know how else to communicate what I'm trying to say here.

While this is a work-related scenario, and very different to marital negotiations (...or is it? as how we navigate and negotiate relationships through-out various aspects of our life do cross-over), anyway, colleague was creating toxic-style shenanigans which was also impacting and upsetting my team. I called out said shenanigans, and boss initiated mediated conversation. It wasn't something I particularly wanted to do, therefore, beforehand I considered that I had choices in how this went. From that place, was a sense of feeling grounded. I remained calmly focused on scenarios/outcomes; didn't make it personal; and also felt that I had nothing to lose. Well, I experienced a grown-ass woman attempt several tactics, winding between versions of snark, personal attacks, and passive aggressive gaslight dialogue - seemingly trying to get an emotional reaction from me. In a way, I felt like I was observing the various learned strategies this person has used previously in life. Called it out to establish boundaries which was supported by our mediator. I remained unswayed through conscious choice and said what I needed to say. For the finale, she resorted to tears. _'You must hate me, and think I dislike you...'_ After what I'd just sat through, none of it flies with me. Anyway, I told her straight that I don't care whether she likes me or not; what is important to me, is to be able to work together professionally. What I learned in particular from that moment, was not being easily swayed, expressing what I needed, and feeling congruent through-out the whole damn thing. And yes, the shenanigans stopped.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Rowan said:


> OP, no sane person_ likes_ people being angry with them. But if you're always afraid of making people angry, or are often worried they are angry or will be angry with you, that may be something inside you. It's possible that you just have a conflict-avoidant personality. How that happened is likely steeped in your family of origin and may be related to low self-esteem. *If you think that's what's going on, then a good therapist might be your best option.* They can help you figure out how to improve your self-esteem, set good personal boundaries, and recognize and deal with conflict in a healthy way.
> 
> Conflict in a relationship should not default to being _combat_. A healthy person can most often handle conflict without turning things into a war with a winner and a loser. An unhealthy person will tend to jump to combat - and may use emotionally and/or verbally abusive tactics to win - over even small conflicts.


LisaD... are you comfortable sharing the types of scenarios you are encountering? And I don't think I'd seen a response about whether you had tried counseling?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Sorry Lisa, I had an afterthought with what I shared... although the shenanigans stopped, I was aware this was not a person that I trusted. That would need to develop through observing actions. Also, I decided upon small strategies for myself when interacting with her, based on past behavior. So, I didn't mean to wrap it up so neatly in a bow with my sharing. There were still aspects I considered with our interactions - although not in an avoidance way. And also, for my own benefit, had to treat the experience as 'water off a duck's back'.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

heartsbeating said:


> LisaD... are you comfortable sharing the types of scenarios you are encountering? And I don't think I'd seen a response about whether you had tried counseling?


I could share some, but I don't know if that would help me understand more...the responses I've received have been terrific and very helpful!!! I've noticed that I feel afraid and shut down (and hurt) alot not just with my husband, but also with my sisters...and I've become very wary of close relationships because of all this - as if I'm expecting to be bullied by everyone who gets to know me. And I just wonder...is it ME and MY sensitivity, or is it THEM.
It's probably a combination of both.

And I have been to counseling on and off since I was a teenager, but haven't had much help with that. Many of the ways to set boundaries with others are difficult to implement when you are 5'0" and 125lbs, and have the equivalent of an angry 230lb gorilla glaring down at you...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> And I have been to counseling on and off since I was a teenager, but haven't had much help with that. Many of the ways to set boundaries with others are difficult to implement when you are 5'0" and 125lbs, and have the equivalent of an angry 230lb gorilla glaring down at you...


Without knowing more about your situation, I don't understand what your height and weight has anything to do with setting boundaries. Also, sounds like you're giving that angry 'gorilla' far too much leverage.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

heartsbeating said:


> Without knowing more about your situation, I don't understand what your height and weight has anything to do with setting boundaries. Also, sounds like you're giving that angry 'gorilla' far too much leverage.


TRUE...and admittedly, size isn't really what intimidates me. I'm much more worried about being misunderstood and hurting the people I care about when they won't respect my boundaries. I think that's why it's hard for me to determine what is THEIR "baggage" in those situations, and what is MINE.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> TRUE...and admittedly, size isn't really what intimidates me. I'm much more worried about being misunderstood and hurting the people I care about when they won't respect my boundaries. I think that's why it's hard for me to determine what is THEIR "baggage" in those situations, and what is MINE.


I furrowed my brow with slight confusion reading this. And I think what I don't understand is, why does it need to be determined whether it is your baggage or theirs? What I mean is, could you get to a place to let that question go?

Instead, recognize that your feelings are valid. Sure, sometimes people aren't going to like what you have to say. Sometimes their feelings will be hurt (and not that that's your intention). But can you get okay with letting the cards fall? It can actually open up different dialogue, dynamics can change, and you can simply know that you're allowed to think and feel and express... and grow. Typical with growth though, is that you need to get comfortable with the uncomfortable, in order to break the mold you are set in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel that you mentioned your weight and height in order to express almost a helplessness (you're the petite character that can be overpowered by the gorilla). Thing is, you don't need to be that. Just as the other character doesn't need to be the gorilla in your mind either. But to change the interactions with your FOO and husband, it's likely that you will need to let the cards fall. And within yourself, be resolved that you're okay with that. Really okay with it. I think how one can get there, is typically through therapy, and/or combined with trial and error. Trying out different ways of being in those moments. Like trying on different coats... did that feel like 'me' ... or maybe this felt more like the me I want to be... or that didn't feel like a good fit at all... hmm a bit uncomfortable but feel it can be worn in...

You are worried about hurting them... even though your boundaries aren't respected. Please read that sentence again, as it's what you wrote. If I was on a thread stating this, how might you advise me?

@turnera typically has some good book suggestions.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The book I always tell people to read first is Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men. If you read it and don't recognize your husband in it, then you're probably in good territory. But if you do, you will have a much harder row to hoe ahead of you.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> I've noticed that I feel afraid and shut down (and hurt) alot


Just a thought... maybe the first different way of handling that feeling, is simply expressing it in that moment. 'Right now, this discussion has me wanting to shut-down.' ...and depending on the dynamics of the relationships, you could ask 'How can we do this differently to help me not shut-down?' that's if there's potential empathy. 

If that is too much to start (as I don't know the kind of scenarios you're dealing with), then simply state, 'Right now, this discussion has me wanting to shut-down.' And leave it at that. If there's silence/awkwardness, let it be that way.

Also, your mention of the gorilla glaring down at you... reading this I thought well, that gorilla sounds a bit up in your face to feel that you're being glared down upon. And so I don't know if how I would react is of any help to you whatsoever, but I would state, 'Before we continue, you need to back up.' Then again, I don't know what kind of interactions you're dealing with.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

bobert said:


> So, during arguments, the line is crossed when someone screams, name-calls, uses cruel language, says things designed to hurt the other person or to make them feel ashamed or degraded, makes verbal threats, belittles, insults, etc. There are more examples of emotional abuse, but you asked specifically about arguments.
> 
> Having an "aggressive fighting style" or being an "aggressive communicator" is not an excuse... it just means someone is an asshole and hasn't bothered to do anything about it. There is a difference between assertive communication, passive communication, and aggressive communication. Assertive communication is the ideal spot and passive or aggressive people CAN learn that skill. Everyone should also learn how to fight fair and should learn conflict resolution.
> 
> ...


You described my twenty three year old marriage here. Finally divorcing.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

In another thread about verbal abuse you recognized most of the love busters that I mentioned there, as part of your marriage. What bobert said is very accurate description of what verbal abuse means. 
And even if you have conflict avoidant personality, (I do, to the agree) that still doesn’t justify your husband’s behavior. 
And don’t take those saying that word abuse is overused and you are just to sensitive on their word. They have no idea what it means to walk on eggshells for years, with squeezed stomach tight as a fist, and adjusting your own behavior to keep peace ( always conditional). 
You have to learn to stand up for yourself. By being calm. When he does that you say “stop yelling at me” , and that’s it. Leave the room if he continues. This type will push you as much as you will allow, and there will be hardly anything left of you. 
I am divorcing my guy. After 23 years, I am finally starting feeling myself, But it will take time and therapy to get my mind straight and not afraid. But I am soo happy and relieved that freedom is my future. 
Good luck to you, and be strong. You have that strength in you, use it


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> In another thread about verbal abuse you recognized most of the love busters that I mentioned there, as part of your marriage. What bobert said is very accurate description of what verbal abuse means.
> And even if you have conflict avoidant personality, (I do, to the agree) that still doesn’t justify your husband’s behavior.
> And don’t take those saying that word abuse is overused and you are just to sensitive on their word. They have no idea what it means to walk on eggshells for years, with squeezed stomach tight as a fist, and adjusting your own behavior to keep peace ( always conditional).
> You have to learn to stand up for yourself. By being calm. When he does that you say “stop yelling at me” , and that’s it. Leave the room if he continues. This type will push you as much as you will allow, and there will be hardly anything left of you.
> ...


Thank you for this Wanda...I wanted to say more, but this made me a little teary...Lol!

((((((((((HUGS!!))))))))))


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Thank you for this Wanda...I wanted to say more, but this made me a little teary...Lol!
> 
> ((((((((((HUGS!!))))))))))


Girl, cry into your pillow if you have to, scream, let it all out. You will be stronger after you do that and after you start believing that what your gut is telling you is true.
But if my post made you teary, that’s your answer...,

And it doesnt mean that your husband doesn’t have good qualities. It is not all black and white. If he didn’t, you’d be out long time ago. If you think this marriage can still be saved, you must act now. Stand up for yourself before his behavior kills all the love you once had for him. Then it would be too late. 
I waited too long . When I did stand up for myself, he scheduled marriage therapy next day. Things got better for few years, and his most crazy behavior got tamed for good (not all of it, tgat’s part of him). But it was too late, I was empty, bruised and out of love to give. I was done


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> I could share some, but I don't know if that would help me understand more...the responses I've received have been terrific and very helpful!!! I've noticed that *I feel afraid and shut down (and hurt) alot* not just with my husband, but also with my sisters...and I've become very *wary of close relationships* because of all this - as if I'm *expecting to be bullied by everyone who gets to know me.* And I just wonder...is it ME and MY sensitivity, or is it THEM. It's probably a combination of both.


Do you see the parts above that I bolded? Let me say them again: You feel AFRAID. You emotionally shut down. You feel hurt a LOT. You are wary of being close. You expect to be bullied if someone gets to know you. 

Have you ever felt afraid of me? Have you wanted to shut down when we are discussing something we disagree about? Have you been hurt by me? Okay...maybe a little but I mean where you hurt A LOT? Are you wary of openly speaking your mind to me? Do you expect me to bully you if I get to know you? 

How about @WandaJ ? Do you feel afraid of her? Do you feel hurt A LOT by her? Do you expect her to bully you?

How about @bobert ... he's a dude! Do you feel afraid of him? Do you want to shut down when he replies back to you? Do you feel wary of what you say or how you say it to him? 

How about your mailman? The clerk at the grocery store? The bank teller? Any of those people make yu feel hurt and like you want to shut down?

I point this out to you so you can see that you are able to speak honestly to people who treat you with kindness and respect, and you DON'T get all hurt and feel like protecting yourself. You feel like that with people who treat you poorly. You ARE sensitive to their treatment because when you poke someone often enough, eventually the spot you poke gets sensitive! Plus, I'll just say it like this--I have a sensitive heart too, and being sensitive is a BLESSING and a gift because you are thoughtful of others and emotionally honest. 

So having said all that--you tell me: is it just you and your sensitivity? I'm not saying you are perfect and they are turds. I AM saying that I think by changing your viewpoint you'll begin to have the scales fall off your eyes and be able to see more realisitically.



> And I have been to counseling on and off since I was a teenager, but haven't had much help with that. Many of the ways to set boundaries with others *are difficult to implement when you are 5'0" and 125lbs, and have the equivalent of an angry 230lb gorilla glaring down at you*...


OH BOY, have I been in your shoes! I'm not sure if you know this about me, but I am very literally a hobbit! LOL. I am 4ft. 10in. tall, and I have to stand on a stool to reach the second shelf in our kitchen cabinets! I am almost a foot shorter than Beloved Buddhist and he's only 5ft. 8in, but he says he feels like he towers over me...and honestly a foot taller is quite a lot! Unlike you, I am built a little more like I've enjoyed "home and hearth" (heehee) and I weigh closer to 150lbs, but I think of it like this: I don't blow over in a heavy wind storm, I have very strong legs for hiking, and I have curves that would drive a man CRAZY! 

But like you, I was with an abuser who felt like he towered over me. My exH was 6t. 2in. and weighed about 225lbs maybe...he wasn't "skinny" but he wasn't much overweight. Anyway, the point being that I felt SOOOOOO much smaller than him already, and if he stood over me and yelled at me, it felt about like a little kid being yelled at by their dad! I remember one night, it was late and he was mad, and I just went upstairs and got in bed. He stood at the foot of the bed and yelled at me. Since I didn't respond, he stood right beside my side of the bed and yelled at me. When I STILL didn't respond, he grabbed a little china bird that I loved and threw it against the wall and smashed it. I cried but I didn't respond...so he kicked my dog across the room into the wall. That literally traumatized my mind because I'm little and if he could do that to a dog, he could do that to me (and I heard the sound of the dog being kicked, landing against the wall, and whimpering as he fell to the floor). NO DOUBT the message of that was "I could do that to you if you don't cooperate." And even if your husband isn't really a 230lb. gorilla, it just FEELS that way! Like they loom over you and intimidate. 

So I hear ya. It is hard to "set a boundary" because it feels scary! But you know what? Boundaries are about YOU...not them. They can do what they want--you can't change them. But you CAN change YOU. Like for me, I did a safety plan first. I looked at each room in the house, and found a primary and secondary way to exit "if I had to"... after that, I felt a little safer because I could get away. I had a little "bug out bag" put together and in my trunk, so all I had to do was get to my car and I could survive. Then once I felt safer, I didn't say my boundaries "If you do this, then I'll leave" cuz that sounds like a threat to me. I just started calling it by name instead of being silent about it. Like if he stood and yelled at me, I'd say, "You are standing over me and yelling" or "You are calling names. Stop it." or "Talking to me like that is dismissive and disrespectful." Now at first I wasn't very good at it because I couldn't see it and thus coulnd't name it. But as I kept naming it, I got better at being able to spot it! 

Soooo...maybe start there. Just name it. Instead of silently going along with it, say out loud "This feels abusive to me and I don't choose to continue like this."


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

What @Affaircare said. 

If you fear you won’t be able To say these words to him, practice first in front of the mirror. You will see that first few times will be shy and timid but after that it will get stronger. Do it 100 times if you have to, day afterday, but you WILL be ready for this eventually. Calm, strong “stop” or “don’t yell at me”. This will be the day when you start taking your power back from him


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> What @Affaircare said.
> 
> If you fear you won’t be able To say these words to him, practice first in front of the mirror. You will see that first few times will be shy and timid but after that it will get stronger. Do it 100 times if you have to, day afterday, but you WILL be ready for this eventually. Calm, strong “stop” or “don’t yell at me”. This will be the day when you start taking your power back from him


I just realized that I need to practice that stop thing again too. Didn't needed for long time, but now during divorce he became nasty again, and all those feelings of tight stomach, tension headache, and just my self esteem disappearing are back. It's like PTSD.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I actually say "Stop" (and no more) in a firm way, envision a stop-sign, and put up the stop hand:


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