# He's still lying. Should I kick him out, or should I keep him at home?



## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Can someone please help me? I need a bit of guidance. As mentioned in an earlier thread, my husband has been having a PA with a woman at work. He confessed to me, and after much discussion, he agreed to cut off his relationship with her and work on our marriage.

He agreed to no contact. At work over the past week she has been repeatedly coming into his office, asking him to come back to her. He has been telling me about this, so I have felt that he has been open with me. However, I have just discovered that they have still been texting each other. Now I am mad. He has not kept his promise of no contact. 

I really want our relationship to work, I have been with him for so long, he has been my best friend. He is also the sole breadwinner and I rely on him financially as I haven't been able to work for the past 3 years. None of my extended family live in this country. The children also think he is wonderful. But I can't live with him while he is still involved with her, it is just too stressful.

I have two dilemmas. I think I have no choice but to confront him with this. But if I do, he will now know I have been keeping an eye on his phone records. And so now he may may find a way to be more clever in hiding his calls from me.

My other dilemma is: do I ask him to leave, or do I keep him at home? Which scenario will give me the best chance of keeping him? If I ask him to leave, will that make it harder for him to come back? Or do I stand a better chance if he is still with me?

I know these aren't easy to questions to answer as our situations are all different, but I'm wondering what other people have done and how this has worked out for them.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

He was damn lucky that you were generous enough to give him a second chance, and what did he do? I know there are kids involved, but I would tell him that I know of the texting, then I would tell him to leave. Maybe the realization of what he has to lose will straighten him out.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

On the flip side telling him to leave may backfire. If he gets his own place, he can see the other woman all he wants. He would have way too much freedom. And that would send the OW a message that he is available.

Here's a great website which you may find helpful. Seven Steps To Ending An Affair?

These folks also participate on this forum a lot and always offer great advice.


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

I don't know, have you exposed the affair to anyone else? family, friends, co workers?
Is the OW married? does her husband know?
Exposure is a good way to stop an affair in it's tracks....
Texting is Contact, he is lying to you and continuing his relationship with the OW, as long as there is contact the affair does not stop........don't be fooled.......this is what a lot of WS's do.........
You have to make him chose, you or her..........you have to be firm by loving.........
Maybe when he realizes that if he continues he loses his life........he will stop......remember he is in affair fog thinking so anything he thinks or says right now might not sound right..........


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks for your replies. The OW is not married, she got divorced several years ago and has 3 kids.

I think disclosure/exposure might be the next step. We don't belong to a church or any organisation, so unfortunately no pastor I can talk to. The only family we have here are his brother (and sister-in-law) and his mother, who is quite elderly and I don't want to upset her. 

I thought I might ask him to tell his brother, and if he refuses, then I should tell the brother myself.

Would exposing the affair to our teenage kids be appropriate? 

We are going to our second counselling session in a few days. I think I am going to say nothing about the texts until then, and bring up the no contact agreement during the session (e.g. ask him if he's found it difficult to stick to no contact). If he confesses that he has been texting, I will give him another (last) chance. But if he denies it, then I will be seriously looking at kicking him out - or withdrawing myself from him emotionally and physically in the house, until he sorts himself out.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

What are the ages of your teenagers? I did finally out my estranged husband's infidelity to my teenagers. At the time their ages were 15 and 19. However, it didn't really have an impact. Since their dad is Santa Dad (aka Peter Pan), he can do no wrong in their eyes.

I did consult my therapist about making this disclosure though. She said my teenagers should be told--they were old enough. My husband's unfaithfulness was leading to financial ruin. That's something which was going to impact the whole family. Therefore, my therapist and I knew I needed to aggressively do whatever might correct his behavior. I basically left no stone unturned. I guess you'll have to weight the benefits against the risk when deciding to tell the children.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Just an update, for anyone who is interested.

On Monday the OW came into his office again. He said that again, for the second time, he told her firmly he was committed to his marriage, all texting had to end, and their relationship at work needed to be limited and strictly professional. He said she seemed to understand this, and they parted on reasonable terms.

I also asked if there had been any texts before the Monday (i.e. since the first no contact talk a week ago). He admitted that he had texted her, and she had sent him several. I was pleased that he owned up to this and will give him another chance - and trust he intends to stick to no contact this time.

I checked his phone records since this Monday's second no contact talk, and he has not sent her any texts over the past 3 days. However, on his cell phone this morning, lo and behold, there was a text from her. It said something along the lines of missing you etc, and so I deleted it. This woman is starting to annoy me, after two no contact talks she keeps on contacting him. She is so persistent!!

Can I please get advice? Should I have deleted her text or not, and should I tell him about it, or just let it be? (I'm not sure he should know I'm checking his phone).



> What are the ages of your teenagers?


They are all over 14, I have decided to not tell them unless things go backwards and one of us ends up moving out. If we can sort out things between ourselves and stay together, I think they don't need to know.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Have you talked to his boss? Get him to talk to the OW, and maybe your H too, to discuss the potential dismissal of those who engage in workplace romances.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

There are a few ways you two could tackle this: 

1) Change his phone service to no longer accept texts (can't imagine that work "requires" texts!). 
2) Block her (no calls, no texts) 
3) Change his phone NUMBER 
4) Put it in writing, delivered by return receipt so you can confirm legally that she was informed to STOP!
5) Speak to a boss about sexual harassment
6) Speak to a boss about a transfer to another shift or another company location.
7) File a restraining order. 

These are close to "in order" and naturally the final suggestions would be done after the first ones have already been done, but they are options! There is absolutely no reason he needs to put up with this if he's serious.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks again for your helpful comments.

No I haven't talked to his boss. My husband doesn't want anyone at work to know because of possible repercussions, as he has been involved in training and assessment of the OW's work (he is in a position of authority over her), and this could lead to all sorts of problems.

She came to his office again yesterday, with the usual 'are you sure you're doing the right thing', 'can't we get back together' etc. This rattled him as he can't concentrate on his work. She also tried to give him a mobile phone so they could continue to text privately! He handed it back to her....

I told him he needs to be much firmer with her but he is scared she is going to blow up and cause trouble at work, so he is trying to tread a bit softly. 

I said he should change his phone number and he looked at me a bit weirdly... so I wonder if he has some hidden agenda here? I know he had (has?) strong feelings for her, and obviously she still does for him. I will discuss your suggestions with him and see if he takes them on board. Or not.

Thanks so much for your support in the meantime, it's great having people to talk to as I don't really have anyone else I can discuss this with.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> No I haven't talked to his boss. My husband doesn't want anyone at work to know because of possible repercussions, as he has been involved in training and assessment of the OW's work (he is in a position of authority over her), and this could lead to all sorts of problems.


Would those repercussions be unjust, or are they the logical and legal consequences of inappropriate behavior on work time? What is he worried about? That he or she be fired? Is that unfair, unjust, or an appropriate consequence of inappropriate sexual acticity on work time? Is your husband afraid that truly immoral behavior will be discovered on his part (perhaps his assessments of her were influenced by his relationship with her?) If so - would any repercussions be legally sound? Would they be the appropriate consequences of inappropriate activity on work time? 

Sometimes you have to be a man, step up and take responsibility for what you've done. 

He needs to remove himself from that job. Either that, or she needs to be removed.



> I told him he needs to be much firmer with her but he is scared she is going to blow up and report him to the boss, so he is trying to tread a bit softly.


Let him know that if she files sexual harassment charges against him, things will be FAR worse than they are now. And she will do it. If things continue the way they are, you could be looking at some very harsh penalties, loss of income, career and more. He needs to get out. Soon. Or - she needs to get out. Soon. 

Best defense is a good offense: he needs to head to HR and tell them EVERYTHING that has happened, and that he is trying to work on his marriage. 

If he is not willing to do this, he is revealing just how important his marriage really is to him.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Compare the two possibilities:

1) He continues to "tread softly." The contact continues. She tries to convince or persuade him and he doesn't go for her bait. She blackmails him ("Continue or I tell"). The affair resumes to keep her quiet and you divorce OR someone at work notices sexual contact in the workplace, reports them both, there is a lawsuit, and he's fired with a big old black mark on his record along with a sexual harassment conviction.

2) He goes straight to HR management tomorrow, tells them that he began to flirt and have some feelings for OW, but then he realized that was the wrong so he decided to return to his wife and do the right thing. He told her it was wrong and asked her to stop, and he doesn't want to make the situation worse or gossip, but he's having trouble getting her to leave him alone. Then ask for their help to set things right or ideas that might help keep them apart. 

#1--he ends up divorced or fired and legally destroyed and unemployable. 

#2--he made a mistake (everyone does), tried to set it right, and needs help setting it right. He is married, employed, and no criminal record. 

Oh and by the way: don't fool yourself that this isn't deadly serious. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act is a FEDERAL law that reads: _"It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature." _ The EEOC Title 29 CHAPTER XIV PART 1604.11 GUIDELINES ON DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF SEX says _“With respect to conduct between fellow employees, an employer is responsible for acts of sexual harassment in the workplace where the employer (or its agents or supervisory employees) knows or should have known of the conduct, unless it can show that it took immediate and appropriate corrective action." _ So by "treading lightly" he's risking prosecution under Federal Law.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I agree; your husband needs to go to HR pronto! He needs to tell them exactly what occurred. Things will be a lot better for him. What if she tells HR "her side" of the story first? Then the company gets into sexual harassment territory---and then there's a chance your husband's career will be headed down the drain.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks for your suggestions! Well I put it to my husband about the possibility of her filing sexual harassment charges against him, and he doesn't believe she will. Being the conflict-avoiding type he his, he will be taking 6 weeks leave soon, then he won't have to see her at work for a while. I said, well what about when you get back? He said there is a possibility she is going to be transferred to another office in a couple of months. I think that is just wishful thinking on his part...

She continues to come in to his office, was in there again yesterday trying to persuade him to get back with her 'one more time', 'just to say bye', 'we were meant to be together', etc.

Now, another thing has happened that has put a spanner in the works and makes me wonder if I want to stay with him anyway. The other night he got fairly drunk, and confessed to me that he had slept with a female friend of ours about 8 years ago, but it had only happened 3 times.... I remember now that friend being a bit weird towards me but never realised why.

He also confessed that he has been using marijuana on an almost daily basis recently. He used to smoke in our early relationship and I didn't really mind then, but he stopped when we had kids. So I'm unhappy knowing that he has also been keeping this from me! I guess he knows I will disapprove as we still have kids in the house.

I'm looking at this guy and wondering who the heck he is? He is not the person I thought he was. In the past when he has been asked to describe himself, the first thing he always said was 'honest' and 'genuine'..... He should've said 'dishonest' and 'liar'. To his credit, he is being honest now, but I think it's a bit late.

Now I really don't know if I want him to stay any more. I also get the feeling he wants to leave, but he wants me to kick him out so he can say 'she kicked me out' and get sympathy. He would look doubly bad saying 'I had an affair' and 'I left her'.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Call the OW and lay down the law to her.
Let her know that if she contacts H again, he is going to HR. Tell her that it is over and if she continues, there is going to be legal recourse. You can get a restraining order and even sue her in small claims court for defamation, harassment, slander, pick a bunch of stuff. You may lose, but the aggravation and threat of embarrassment may be enough.
Also, you may just be able to scare the crap out of her.


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

This happened to my marriage as well, my husband had an affair with an employee of his. When I first found out he didn't know what his plan would be, he had been involved with her for about 3 months........I have to tell you that telling my children, 20 and 22 and exposing the affair is what stopped him from seeing her. Having everyone know at work, his family, his friends........I think the repercussions of all that woke him up to what his selfish decision to have an affair had done to a lot of innocent people, two families now were in upheaval all because of his selfishness.
Your family can withstand the exposure, but not the affair continuing.........Sure your husband will be mad, but so what......he will get over it, of course he wants to keep things quiet, why would he want everyone to know what kind of guy he really is.....................a guy that would have an affair........
You can be firm in a loving way that this isn't acceptable and if he does not do the right thing, he will have to leave the home and the family and move on with his life............
Be firm, he won't go, she isn't worth losing his family over.
You have a lot more power than you think..........a history, a family..............what can she really give him but lies and deceit..........won't work, get a plan and stick to it............
My husband's affair woman finally left the job but she also persisted for a while, many text attempts, some phone attempts, just deleted, didn't answer, I think she has finally given up.....................


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

> he wants to keep things quiet, why would he want everyone to know what kind of guy he really is.....................a guy that would have an affair........


On the one hand I haven't been sure it's worth telling anyone as he did agree to stop contacting her (she is chasing him, supposedly...), we are both private people and I don't really like other people knowing our business.

However on the other hand, I feel at the moment he is 'getting away' scot free, still playing the role of good and faithful husband in the family home. 

I'm at the point where I want people to know what he's done, not to keep us together but to get back at him! Which I know isn't the right motivation. I also want to kick him out so he can realize fully that it isn't necessarily greener on the other side, and really understand what he has lost/might lose. 

To be honest, at the moment I'm not sure I really want him to stay. I really hate the constant suspicion I am feeling, always wanting to check his phone, ask where he is, wonder why he is a bit late etc. I'm not sure I can put up with these feelings for years to come


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Squiffy:

In order for you to rebuild your marriage all future dealings have to be transparent ,open and honest. If he has any contact with the OW he is back to the beginning, there has to be absolutely no contact with the OW ever. He cannot blame her because he is* NOT taking the necessary action to stop it*. Making excuses that she comes to him at work is wholly unacceptable. 


So start with your family and closest friends, together you tell them of the affair. When you discuss this with your husband choose your words carefully, you do not say it in a threatening manner, keep unemotional and stick to the processes. If he threatens you or baulks then he is not willing to rebuild your marriage. If he declines I suggest you disclose the affair yourself as the deceit is hurting you and he is not taking the steps recommended by professionals to take your marriage forward. In this instance I am referring to advice given by the likes of Dr. Harley, affaircare .. to cite some examples. Your husband is not skilled at recovering marriages they are. 

Once you have told him you will disclose you must disclose fast, call the BIL, have a mail and text message ready to send. To disclose is not a threat it is you being open and honest to those close to your family and asking for help, if your husband is angry well ....you asked him to do this with you, he declined so you are doing it for him.. ..I am sure he will be mighty angry so gauge this timing well. 

You will both be surprised how much support you will get if he and you stand together and reveal the affair. 

Sample words below:



> Dear ........., I would like to ask you to support......... and myself in restoring our marriage which currently is undergoing an extremely difficult time due to ........ and ........... being involved in an adulterous affair which is affecting our marriage and both of our physical and mental health. I know you care about .......... and want only the best for her which clearly being used in an adulterous affair is not. I would like to ask your help in recommending marital counseling to her to guide us through this difficult spot in our marriage.



For work: The answer is simple he leaves his job or she leaves, no contact is no contact ever. 

He writes her no contact letter formalizing the process,you read it and approve, examples can be provided. At the time of typing this I cannot recall if you have done this already if not this is a prerequisite step to end an affair formally. 

If she contacts him, he calls you immediately even is she is standing in front of him, you call her and explain that he called you and that you both require her to leave your husband alone to rebuild the marriage. If she contacts him again you repeat the process and this time you get a restraining order. 

He tells his immediate management of the affair, that it is over and he is rebuilding his marriage. He mentions that the OW is now trying to pursue him at work. 

If your husband is not prepared to do all of the above he is not prepared to fight for your marriage. You Plan B him asap, even if you have done this before. I am skipping Plan A as this may not help you at the moment, you set the boundaries of the marriage in writing, you keep the plan running until he agrees to the boundaries or sadly leaves. 


Message to him is the marriage will not recover if he does not invest in practicing a process called extraordinary precautions to protect the marriage. If he has any doubt get him to this forum and he will be taught the processes to recover the marriage. 




> On the one hand I haven't been sure it's worth telling anyone as he did agree to stop contacting her (she is chasing him, supposedly...), we are both private people and I don't really like other people knowing our business.


An affair is an affair and it is in your interest to disclose this , it will help keep him honest going forward, he has not felt any repercussions for his deceit and he may repeat an affair later on. Why must you be the one who is uncomfortable if he stares at one of your female friends and wonder what may happen, the trust is not there. 




> However on the other hand, I feel at the moment he is 'getting away' scot free, still playing the role of good and faithful husband in the family home.


Yes, he is and he is not putting the required effort and steps into recovering the marriage and protecting the marriage against a future affair. He must swallow his pride and do his everything to save his marriage. pride and privacy come last, he should have thought about this when he had the affair. 



> I'm at the point where I want people to know what he's done, not to keep us together but to get back at him! Which I know isn't the right motivation. I also want to kick him out so he can realize fully that it isn't necessarily greener on the other side, and really understand what he has lost/might lose.


This is understandable 



> To be honest, at the moment I'm not sure I really want him to stay. I really hate the constant suspicion I am feeling, always wanting to check his phone, ask where he is, wonder why he is a bit late etc. I'm not sure I can put up with these feelings for years to come


Again if he does not complete the steps to help heal the distrust your marriage will not survive and certainly is not future proof. He gets away with it once who is to say he won't do it again.




> Would exposing the affair to our teenage kids be appropriate?


Yes you tell your children together, if he chooses not to do so yourself. 

If you were a man I would say man up, however as you are lady I am saying toughen up and do not take his nonsense. This is a marriage and he has messed up big time , time to be honest, something he has not been for a long time. 

One more entry requirement for the marriage to recover, he goes in for an STD test, who says the OW is clean,


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

So, let me get this straight.
He gets drunk and confesses to banging a friend of yours, but it "only" happened 3 times. Oh, and by the way, he jeopardized your family and house by having illegal substances? Pot is the one he confessed-what ELSE has he done? Who ELSE has he slept with, but "only" a few times. He doesn't want anyone at work to know-who ELSE is he seeing on the side at work that he desperately doesn't want to find out.

Wake up, girl! The guy is a lying, cheating and possibly drug addicted scumbag. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but after these "confessions", I'd call the cops and get him dragged out of there.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

F-102 said:


> So, let me get this straight.
> He gets drunk and confesses to banging a friend of yours, but it "only" happened 3 times. Oh, and by the way, he jeopardized your family and house by having illegal substances? Pot is the one he confessed-what ELSE has he done? Who ELSE has he slept with, but "only" a few times. He doesn't want anyone at work to know-who ELSE is he seeing on the side at work that he desperately doesn't want to find out.
> 
> Wake up, girl! The guy is a lying, cheating and possibly drug addicted scumbag. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but after these "confessions", I'd call the cops and get him dragged out of there.


Yeah, I think there is a much bigger picture that needs to be analyzed here.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Well.. we saw the marriage counsellor this morning and have decided to separate. He finally admitted he wasn't ready to let go of the OW - yesterday I read a text she sent him which said "I still love you too" and so he has clearly been professing his love for her. He hasn't said "I love you" to me in weeks.

I said I wasn't willing to put up with that, and I didn't think I could ever trust him again. He actually said "You shouldn't trust me"! He said he didn't want to be with me anymore, and wanted to move out on his own. I said it was a pity because I felt we could have worked things out, but he was clearly not willing.

He wanted us to stay together until after Christmas so we could do all the family get-togethers etc. I told him he has to move out by the end of next week, I don't want to play any charade of happy families, I'm sick of the deceit and lies.

I just feel numb at the moment, I'm sure the anger and sadness are going to come later. I hope I will be able to get through this without too much pain. Thanks to all of you for listening and commenting, it has been wonderful knowing that other people do care, and that I'm not alone in all this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you exposed his cheating to his parents, siblings, and best friends?

If not, then you have not done everything you can to save your marriage.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Tunera - I haven't exposed him yet, I didn't feel that comfortable with doing it, and I was hoping we could work things out without having to do that. But now of course when he moves out everyone will know, so if he doesn't tell them himself in the next day or two, then I will certainly be doing so.

He knows that I am interested in saving our marriage, but he doesn't want to do so. He said he is going to stay by himself, he doesn't want to move in with the OW, or have a long term relationship with her. I guess time will tell...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do NOT let HIM do the telling. 

Do you know what he'll say? 

"Squiffy and I decided we're not good partners for each other and we're going our separate ways; it's mutual."

YOU should be calling all his important people and saying "MrSquiffy is cheating on me and now he's leaving so he can pursue his affair more easily. Please talk some sense into him. I still want to save our marriage, despite what he's doing to it."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Squiffy said:


> He said he is going to stay by himself, he doesn't want to move in with the OW, or have a long term relationship with her. I guess time will tell...


Cheaters LIE. And they lie VERY WELL.

He's giving you the 'it's not you, it's me' speech so you won't interfere with his affair.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

> Do NOT let HIM do the telling.


You are right, I'm sure he will try to cover it up if he rings his family, so I am going to do it today. I think it's also time to tell our kids.

He admitted today that he hadn't really been trying to enforce no contact (surprise, surprise), and that him and the OW have had some physical contact over the past few weeks - he said he hadn't slept with her but 'almost did' a couple of times.... So he has been lying about her being the one chasing him since the no contact agreement, and lying about worrying about work repercussions, the truth is he has still been actively involved with her. 

He rang her almost immediately we had finished counselling (I guess to tell her he was free), and got straight into clearing and tidying stuff up in the shed, in preparation for leaving. So he is obviously very keen to leave and get back with her, despite what he had said about wanting to keep our marriage together - his eagerness to leave made made me feel very hurt and insulted. 

I said I was disappointed that he didn't even try to give our marriage a chance, as I had told him it would be impossible for us to work things out while she was still in the picture. He just kind of looked at me and shrugged.

I am thinking of suggesting he stays home until after Christmas as it will make it a lot easier on the kids, as our Christmas day is already organised. 

Although I want our marriage to work, and the thought of losing him and our life together is very upsetting, the fact is he has been lying continually, even over the past few weeks when he was claiming to be honest. I still love him, but I'm not sure I will ever be able to trust him again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Expose the affair. If he's going to choose that life, his family needs to understand what he is doing.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Squiffy said:


> ... I am thinking of suggesting he stays home until after Christmas as it will make it a lot easier on the kids, as our Christmas day is already organised.
> ...


Oh I could not disagree more! I would suggest packing his things today, leaving them in the garage, and he's out tonight! Squiffy--he had the choice to stay with you and reap the benefits of YOU and the kids and Christmas Day....or to go with her and lose all those warm, cuddly benefits. AND HE CHOSE HER. 

So let him miss Christmas Day. He chose that. You and the kids carry on with the Christmas Day you had organized...or call grandparents and let them enjoy Christmas Day with their grandkids. LET HIM realize that choosing her = losing holidays with his children!! He will learn the lesson faster if you don't stand in the way and prevent him from learning it!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Oh I could not disagree more! I would suggest packing his things today, leaving them in the garage, and he's out tonight! Squiffy--he had the choice to stay with you and reap the benefits of YOU and the kids and Christmas Day....or to go with her and lose all those warm, cuddly benefits. AND HE CHOSE HER.
> 
> So let him miss Christmas Day. He chose that. You and the kids carry on with the Christmas Day you had organized...or call grandparents and let them enjoy Christmas Day with their grandkids. LET HIM realize that choosing her = losing holidays with his children!! He will learn the lesson faster if you don't stand in the way and prevent him from learning it!


 I SO agree! Don't kid yourself that keeping him there will 'help' the kids. It won't. And if you want him back at all, let him experience life without you guys on Christmas/New Years so he'll understand what he's giving up.

Consider it sacrificing one holiday to possibly gain the rest of your holidays.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

DanF said:


> Call the OW and lay down the law to her.
> Let her know that if she contacts H again, he is going to HR.


Wait a second. He has an affair with a woman who is his work subordinate. The fact that he is in a position of authority over her says to me that she has a Very Convincing claim of sexual harassment herself, even if the truth is mightily colored. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

Honestly, I think his next errand should be to a lawyer to fund out the best way to detangle himself from this massive CF.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Squiffy said:


> Although I want our marriage to work, and the thought of losing him and our life together is very upsetting, the fact is he has been lying continually, even over the past few weeks when he was claiming to be honest. I still love him, but I'm not sure I will ever be able to trust him again.


Drop kick is sorry a$$ to the curb. IF there is any chance of saving this marriage, no weeny is gonna do it. Expose him to his family. Drop kick his sorry butt so everyone knows. He has to feel the consequences, Otherwise he can still stay in la-la land thinking he can have it all.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Oh I could not disagree more! I would suggest packing his things today, leaving them in the garage, and he's out tonight! Squiffy--he had the choice to stay with you and reap the benefits of YOU and the kids and Christmas Day....or to go with her and lose all those warm, cuddly benefits. AND HE CHOSE HER.
> 
> So let him miss Christmas Day. He chose that. You and the kids carry on with the Christmas Day you had organized...or call grandparents and let them enjoy Christmas Day with their grandkids. LET HIM realize that choosing her = losing holidays with his children!! He will learn the lesson faster if you don't stand in the way and prevent him from learning it!


:iagree:


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

About the Christmas day thing... we have organised to have lunch with his brother in law's family, and his mum. They are lovely people, and the kids like their cousins a lot. Unfortunately I don't have any family in this country so that is my Christmas day too!

So I don't want to keep the kids from their relatives and grandma on Christmas day. If we split up now then he will be taking the kids there on the day and I get left alone home...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Squiffy said:


> About the Christmas day thing... we have organised to have lunch with his brother in law's family, and his mum. They are lovely people, and the kids like their cousins a lot. Unfortunately I don't have any family in this country so that is my Christmas day too!
> 
> So I don't want to keep the kids from their relatives and grandma on Christmas day. If we split up now then he will be taking the kids there on the day and I get left alone home...


How about YOU take the kids instead? By what twist of logic are you constrained to only visiting them when he is there? If he shows up, so be it. You can't do anything about that. But you MOST CERTAINLY stand up for your marriage!


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

> How about YOU take the kids instead? By what twist of logic are you constrained to only visiting them when he is there?


You are very right, Tanelornpete - I'm so used to it being 'his' family and only ever going there with him, I've kind of forgotten about me! I think it's time to put me first for a change...

And the reason I'm waiting a week for him to leave is because my daughter is performing in a concert next week which she is very nervous about, and I don't want to upset her before that, she has a very sensitive nature.



> He has to feel the consequences, Otherwise he can still stay in la-la land thinking he can have it all.


Agreed, he is definitely in la-la land at the moment, he even talked about us spending this Saturday night at a hotel somewhere! I seriously don't know what's going on inside his head at the moment. But I think a dose of harsh reality would be good.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Squiffy, I like yer style!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Squiffy said:


> About the Christmas day thing... we have organised to have lunch with his brother in law's family, and his mum. They are lovely people, and the kids like their cousins a lot. Unfortunately I don't have any family in this country so that is my Christmas day too!
> 
> So I don't want to keep the kids from their relatives and grandma on Christmas day. If we split up now then he will be taking the kids there on the day and I get left alone home...


Why?

Why will they be with him? If you have to, drive there yourself.

Look, you are choosing a temporary feel good for yourself, while ignoring the potential of reclaiming your marriage for the rest of your life.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

> Why will they be with him?


Oops - meant to say "his brother *and sister *in law's family".



> Squiffy, I like yer style!


Thanks F-102! This made me smile, something I haven't done too much of lately


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi all - need help again! Here's a brief summary of my situation:

(1) Husband had PA with subordinate at work, he confessed to me, agreed to no contact. However they kept texting and she kept coming in to his work office over next couple of weeks. 
(2) We went to counselling, talked about this, he agreed to no contact again. Over the next 2 weeks he didn't text her but she continually texted him and kept coming to his office. 
(3) One night while drunk he confessed to sleeping with a friend of ours 'only 3 times' about 8 years ago, and to using marijuana regularly.
(4) Saw marriage counsellor, I said despite all this I wanted to work on our marriage. Husband said he didn't want to leave OW, admitted he hadn't enforced no contact. We decided to separate and he agreed to leave this week. 

Now my problem is we spoke last night about him leaving, and he started to backtrack, saying he doesn't want to leave the house. He claims to care for me, but he still refuses to stop contact with the OW and says he wants to keep seeing her.

I told him I have been extremely stressed about him being in the house (I suffer from anxiety and some other health problems), knowing he is still seeing her, and I need him to leave for the sake of my health, which is getting steadily worse from all this. But he doesn't want to leave.

I am not the kind of person who would pack his stuff up and throw it on the front lawn, so has anyone else got any suggestions as to how I can get him to go??? Or how I can cope with living with him in the same house, wondering if he's seeing her at work today, and hearing his damned phone go 'beep' every time she texts him?? It is driving me crazy!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Sure! You can enforce a personal boundary. This is not you telling him what he "has to" do--this is you telling him what you do and do not accept in your life. So as an example, your personal boundary might be "I will only have a life partner/spouse in my life who gives me 100% of their affection and loyalty. I have asked for 100% of your affection and yet you give some to the OW. I have asked for 100% of your loyalty here in our marital home, and still you are more loyal to your mistress than your wife. So I have no choice but enforce my boundary. I have packed your things in these two suitcases and those boxes, and you will be welcome back into our marital home when you will give me 100% of both AND since you've deceived me before you will have to prove it to me before I believe you--promises won't cut it. Shall I put these things into storage, call your brother to get them, or call your parents to come get you?"

The idea is to pack his things--staying in the house and blatantly continuing his affair is not an option. He only gets the marital benefits of YOU and the HOME and the KIDS if he chooses you. If he chooses the affair, then he has to do that on his own or have his mistress give him a place to stay. 

And I already know you're thinking, "Won't that drive him into her arms?" Maybe--in a way. What it will do is take the affair from "..have his cake and eat it too" to the place of "Holy Smoke having this affair is going to cost me!" Also there is a fairly good chance that this "subordinate" is in it for the fun and not so she can support him, give him a roof and food, and have to put up with custody and child support and alimony, etc. She wants the "fun zing" of the affair, not the reality of having to actually BE with the guy and all his troubles!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You may not be the 'type' to pack his bags and throw them on the lawn...but are you the type to LET your husband cheat and still live with you?

Don't you deserve more than that?

If you're afraid to do it, call up your brothers or father or male friends and ask them to come over and do it.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Keep him out, Squiff... have him come and get his stuff, and have the police there to make sure that he does it. Then, you wouldn't exactly be "throwing him out", you are enforcing his agreement to leave. 

He still wants to have everything his way, but he realizes that it won't work for him this time, and he realizes now that, legally speaking, he is up to his neck in deep s**t. Not only alimony and child support, but also the whole new crapstorm he created by his inappropriate actions involving a subordinate. He now knows that he may very well lose everything, and he's desperately trying to get you to "play ball", according to his rules. Stick to your guns, don't cave. Show him that you will "play ball", but on YOUR terms.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Well, we had a good talk last night and he has agreed to leave tomorrow, as he has a half day at work. 

He still keeps asking, isn't there another way to work this out? He said he came home from work today and realised this is where he belongs. But then he still refuses to stop seeing her! He is quite deluded I think, he would like us to stay together while he still keep seeing her on the side, like an open marriage. I said that I could not do that morally, or emotionally, or physically. He knows I won't tolerate having her in the our relationship, I've been very patient and given him five weeks, now I have had enough!

I rang up a bunch of family friends yesterday and told them we were separating and why. While it was very painful to do, it also made me feel better that people now know about it, and finally a decision has been made.

Tonight we have to tell the kids..... not looking forward to that. And not looking forward to the moving out either, I think it's going to be a stressful few days all round


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> He still keeps asking, isn't there another way to work this out? He said he came home from work today and realised this is where he belongs.


Oh there absolutely IS a way to work this out. He can have all the benefits of HOME, and WIFE, and CHILDREN when he agrees to give you 100% of his affection and loyalty. He would demonstrate that by writing a No Contact Letter that you mail, by willingly being transparent so you can verify his honesty, and by committing to working on his personal issues and working on the marriage! 

With regard to the children, I personally recommend being honest but age-appropriate. For example, if they are pretty young, elementary school age, I'd say something like, "Daddy is going to be living in another place for a little while, as daddy and mommy disagree with each other. I personally believe that mommies and daddies should only love each other and not have another boyfriend or girlfriend. I have asked daddy to stop seeing his girlfriend and he will not, so he will be moving and I hope that very soon he will come back home and love only me." 

The idea is not to make him look like a jerk or be all blaming, but at the same time, to tell the real truth. Tell the children what you believe and that you want him to give up his girlfriend and come home. Then let him explain his decisions! It will bring some reality to slap him right in the face!



> ...And not looking forward to the moving out either, I think it's going to be a stressful few days all round.


I recommend that maybe you consider taking the kids for a small vacation to Gramma and Grampa's or at least some other "self-care" kind of activities for both you and them. Don't be surprised if they act like it doesn't bother them, as they are children and may not fully understand it. No matter what you do, make sure that HE bears the full responsibility for all the difficulty of moving. HE arranges for it, HE lifts and carries things, etc. because HE is the one making the purposeful choice to leave his home, and he needs to experience the full impact of exactly what his choice means. You are not being mean to allow him to experience the natural consequences of his choice--you are letting him LEARN that choosing to A means B and C.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Stand tall, Squiff-he has no sense of reality or even what it takes to be a real man.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

OK - he is leaving this afternoon, his brother and sister-in-law have cleared a room for him in their home. Our kids, family and friends all know about the affair and him going.

However, since telling the kids and talking to his mother, he has become very remorseful. He says he has finally started to realise what he is losing, what he has done. He says he now wants to finish if off with the OW.

He had arranged to go to the OW's place this afternoon after leaving, but said he no longer wanted to go and asked me to help him get out of it. I helped him compose a text message telling her he wasn't coming and needed some space. There are so many texts on his phone from her in the past day or two that he hasn't opened or answered. He is scared that she will coerce and tempt him as she seems to be very pushy (he is very passive). I'm imagine she will be there at work today in full force. 

Do you guys think sending him away at this point is the right thing to do? He may be very remorseful today but what about tomorrow or next week? I wonder how long will it take him to know for sure what he wants.

Or should I rather keep him at home where I can give him support to get over this affair - trusting he is truly sorry?


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## Mrs Chai (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm no expert, but isn't there a saying fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...? Other than his word - which he's established is absolute crap - he's made no effort AT ALL to do what you've asked him at this point. While the reality check has gotten his eyes open a bit, I think he'd probably just fall back into the routine he was doing before.

I think he actually needs to pony up some sort of concrete conviction and physical proof ("Talk is CHEAP") that he's serious about ending the affair. He played along with it, deceived you about it, all with a smile and a grin. He sat next to you and lied about caring about working on your marriage while he was playing with the OW on his free time - which should be family time.

I'm sure he see's what's happening. I don't think he gets it.

And also, the other women thing "only" 3 times having a PA? Um... you don't only or accidentally do anything 3 times. I think you need some serious introspective thinking when it comes to this farce of a relationship your husband has led you to believe....

And he can stay in a hotel. Or at his brothers. Or somewhere else other than that woman and start working on rebuilding your marriage. Consequences happen and I think he's more than built up enough reason for some actual action taken by you. So far he's established if he placates you, you cave. I think its about time you stand firm.

You definitely need some just you time too. I think you are a people pleaser and find it hard to worry about yourself with such a selfish husband hovering around.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you written out what you need?

A No Contact letter that YOU send.
Complete access to his phone/computer.
Attending a marriage counselor.
Either quitting his job or getting her out of hers.

Letting him stay at this point just shows that you want him more than you respect yourself. And he'll slide back into 'temptation.' Notice that's me assuming he is NOT yet taking responsibility.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> He had arranged to go to the OW's place this afternoon after leaving, but said he no longer wanted to go and asked me to help him get out of it. I helped him compose a text message telling her he wasn't coming and needed some space. There are so many texts on his phone from her in the past day or two that he hasn't opened or answered. He is scared that she will coerce and tempt him as she seems to be very pushy (he is very passive). I'm imagine she will be there at work today in full force.


1) He doesn't need your help to get him out of it. All he is doing is making YOU responsible for his action (inaction). It is very simple to 'get out of' such a thing. Simply refuse to do it. 

2) He doesn't 'need space' from her. He needs NO CONTACT with her. Here is a specific reason why this is so. 

3) Who cares if she is 'coercive'? If she doesn't leave him alone, he can easily charge her with sexual harassment. Unwanted solicitation is not something to 'put up with'. Have him request that she never contact him again. By doing so, he sets up the foundation for a Restraining Order to be placed upon her. 

4) His unwillingness to take personal responsibility for his actions must stop. By allowing you to be responsible for him, by allowing the Other Woman to be responsible for him, and on and on and on, he refuses to be an adult. He needs to grow up.

And in order for this to happen, you MUST stop filling in for him. Sure he's all passive! That WORKS for him! It's one thing to be a peaceful man, and something entirely else to manipulate everyone around you into doing the things that make you feel uncomfortable, so you don't have to (poor me!!!)

Sometimes grownups just have to deal with it! Stop giving him passes to stay an infant!

Turnera gave you the steps to use. These are non-negotiable conditions that create an environment in which you can begin to work together on recovery and improvement in your marriage.

Check this thread for more information.

To repeat: 

1) He must establish NO CONTACT with this woman, initiated by the process of a No Contact letter (some sample ones here) - which YOU read, of which YOU approve, and which YOU mail.

2) Complete transparent honesty between the two of you.

3) Commitment to, and then actually doing ALL the work necessary to create a healthy marriage.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

You asked if pushing him out was wise, because he is remorseful now, but what about tomorrow?

If you let him stay, can you guarantee that he will feel remorseful tomorrow?


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Finally he is gone. He left yesterday afternoon, and to be honest, I feel happier than I've been ever since he told me about the affair.

Before he left he told me she came into his office yesterday, very upset because he hadn't gone to her place as arranged. He told her he was leaving to be on his own for a while, and that he was hoping to get back with me in the future. She got very mad and teary, and threatened to harass me as she feels I am manipulating him.

Now I really don't want him back in the house. He can stay out and deal with her by himself. He made this mess and he can fix it. I don't even know if I ever want him back.


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Just an update - He has been away for 2 days at his brother's house, he texted yesterday to say he was coming around this morning to see the kids. I have had a really good 2 days, feel calmer than I have for ages. As soon as I heard his car drive up I could feel my stomach start to churn, I have so many negative feelings associated with him now, it is not funny.

He hung around the house almost all day. It was as if he never left, he just came in, sat around, made himself lunch, had a snooze on the couch.... I said to him 'you are going back to your brother's today?' and he said he wasn't sure. He then admitted he had been hoping to come back home, he thought he was only leaving for a couple of days.... Well, I told him he needed to stay away for longer than that, he needed to be VERY sure about what he wanted. I couldn't trust that he wouldn't change his mind again, I'm not going to put myself and the children through this again. He looked frustrated, but seriously! WTF! He thinks he can just walk back in like that?

He then decided to go away on a camping trip by himself for a few days - he said he has not contacted the OW and does not want to get back with her. I said he must tell her this very clearly, i.e. via a NC letter, but he just wants to 'run away'. He believes she is fed up and done with him, and he won't confront the issue directly. 

For my part I am just pleased he is staying away, since she threatened me I don't want his car outside our house, knowing she is probably driving past to check where he is. So far so good, I haven't received any hate mail or death threats!

I don't really understand his thinking. Does he think he can just say sorry and walk right back home as if nothing happened? He hasn't dealt with me or the OW properly at all. 

The kids really love him and are missing him badly, it will be very difficult financially without him, and despite all this I think I still do love him...(I don't love what he did though). I'm just wondering how long I should keep him kicked out so that he really feels the consequences. (and of course a NC letter will be part of the conditions of him coming back - IF I decide to take him back after all this).


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## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

Just an update for the lovely people who gave me good advice when I posted my problems (it helped me think straight at a time when I could hardly think at all).

After a week of being away my husband called me and said wanted to come back home. I wasn't keen to have him back that soon and wanted him to find other accommodation, but it was almost impossible given it was a week before Christmas. So he came to the house and we did a lot of talking. He said he no longer wanted to see the OW, and knew that home was where he wanted to be (whereas before he had said he wanted to be home but wanted to keep seeing her as well). I could see his attitude was completely different to what it had been before, he didn't look shifty any more and appeared truly remorseful.

He said that telling the kids and his mum about the affair had a big impact on him, it really made him realise what he was losing. I'm glad I persuaded him to tell them rather than do it myself (although I filled them in on the details), because I think that's what made it more real for him. Telling them, combined with me kicking him out, gave him quite a shock and jolted him into reality.

So he has been home for almost two weeks now and things are going well. He has been very transparent about everything, finally gave me his cell phone - said I could do with it what I wanted, and wrote the NC letter. He is still on leave from work so I know where he is all the time (with me), but I guess when he goes back to work it could start to get difficult again. But he knows now that he has no more chances.

I have also been lucky that in the time he was away, the OW sent him a bunch of text messages, quite a few of them were very nasty, especially towards me, and putting down his feelings for his kids. We also know from things she has said that she has been watching our house. So he has seen a side of her now that he really dislikes, so I don't think he will want to go back to her after seeing the nasty and stalker side of her come out.

So thanks to everyone who helped me through a really difficult part of my life. I know it's not going to be plain sailing in the future, but at least we are both trying.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Great news and good for you 

Take some time out to be with your husband, go on vacation together without the children.

The hard part is rebuilding the marriage, trust and affair proofing the marriage going forward. There is a lot of reading material to get the basics right , try reading the following the books 

"his needs her needs"

Amazon.com: His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage Fifteenth Anniversary Edition (9780800717889): Willard F. Harley Jr.: Books

and "surviving an affair"

Amazon.com: Surviving an Affair (9780800717582): Willard F. Jr. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers: Books

The above is a US site, I am sure there is a similar link if you are non US based. 

Best wishes for the future and look after yourself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, great news. But remember you cannot just settle back into what you had. You MUST remain completely open and honest and work HARD to see where your marriage went off track. Are you both in therapy? That needs to be part of your requirements.


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