# Identifying true remorse



## Sparta (Sep 4, 2014)

I got this off of a post in S.I. Thought it was pretty interesting. I was thinking this could be helpful.? 

A person’s character deficiencies inevitably spawn a host of irresponsible behavior patterns – bad habits that can become easily ingrained and, once rooted, extremely hard to break. Often, these dysfunctional patterns involve forms of mental, emotional, and even physical abuse within relationships. And while many of the character-impaired individuals I’ve worked with experienced periods of profound unhappiness and even a degree of regret over their actions, only a handful made truly significant changes in their once destructive behaviors. But those who truly did address their behaviors and succeeded in changing their lives for the better displayed a rare quality that seemed to make all the difference: genuine contrition. 

By definition, personality patterns are deeply ingrained and hard to modify. But that doesn’t mean a person can’t change. People can and do change every day. That is, genuinely contrite people do. This begs the question about what contrition really is and how to know when someone is really experiencing it.

The word contrition comes from the Latin contritus (the same root for the word contrite), and literally means “crushed to pieces.” The contrite person has had their once haughty and prideful ego completely crushed under the tremendous weight of guilt and shame. Such a person has “hit bottom”, not only because they can no longer bear the thought of how badly their actions hurt others but also because of their deep realization of how their usual way of doing things has resulted in abject personal failure. That’s why the contrite person is first and foremost a broken person. And, by definition, only by acknowledging personal defeat can a person become potentially open to reconstructing their life on very different terms. It’s been said many times, but it’s profoundly psychologically true. One cannot begin a new life without laying to rest one’s old self.

A regretful person is not necessarily a contrite one. Regret often precedes contrition but is definitely not synonymous with it. And when it comes to making meaningful changes in one’s character and turning around an irresponsible life, regret is simply not sufficient. The word regret comes from the Old French, meaning “to bewail.” It’s a person’s intellectual and emotional response to an unpleasant or unfortunate circumstance (originally used to characterize a person’s loss of a loved one through death). Anyone can regret something they have done and for a variety of reasons, some of which can be quite ignoble. Even some of the most hardened criminals had certain regrets. They regretted the loss of their freedom. They lamented the fact that a judge was able to exercise power over them and subject them to various unpleasant consequences. Many “bewailed” that the sentence they received was greater than they anticipated or longer than someone else’s who committed a similar crime. A few even regretted their actual actions, but most of the time even that kind of regret had to do with practical considerations (e.g., they didn’t plan their crime carefully enough to avoid detection, or they misjudged the character of their partner in crime who later “ratted [them] out” to authorities). And when expressing their regrets, some were even moved to tears. But tears do not a contrite person make. And mere regret has never been sufficient to prompt a person to change their ways.

Remorse is a prerequisite for contrition, but it’s also not sufficient for it. Remorse is a genuine empathy-based expression of one’s regret over hurting someone else. By definition, psychopaths (alt: sociopaths) cannot really experience any meaningful degree of it, although they are quite capable of feigning it. Fortunately, most people are capable of it to some degree, and having remorse for the injury caused to another is a necessary first step toward real contrition. But true contrition goes even beyond remorse. Genuinely contrite people – their prideful egos crushed and torn asunder by the weight of their guilt and shame – not only hate their “sins” and the pain they inflicted on others as a result of their sins, but also are deeply unnerved about the person they allowed themselves to become that permitted their travesties in the first place. And they necessarily resolve not only to make amends but also to make of better persons of themselves and their lives in a better fashion in the future.

Contrition is that very rare but absolutely essential feature of changing one’s life for the better. It requires a true metanoia or “change of heart.” And even more importantly, it requires work – a lot of very hard, humble, committed work. Reforming one’s character is the most challenging of human enterprises. You have to put a lot of energy into doing it, and you have to feel a deep sense of obligation about doing it in order to maintain the energy to get the job done. And contrition wears a very distinctive face. Truly contrite people behave very differently, even from regretful and remorseful people. And when you know what to look for, you can readily tell the difference.

One of the more reliable outward signs that someone has really experienced a change of heart is their willingness and commitment to make amends. The contrite person is not only “sorry” for what he/she has done but is willing to repair the damage inflicted on the lives of others. Many irresponsible characters will challenge their understandably hesitant to trust again victims with retorts like: “I’ve said I’m sorry a million times now – what else do you want from me?!,” attempting all the while to throw the other party on the defensive for doubting their sincerity. Or they will cite some small efforts they have made over a relatively short period of time and then chide their victims for not immediately accepting those small gestures as concrete evidence of meaningful, sincere, permanent change. Contrite individuals understand that the burden of proof rests with them and that they owe those they have hurt a justifiable basis upon which to resume some degree of trust. A contrite person is willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to regain good standing within a relationship.

It’s one thing to say you’re sorry. But it’s quite another to prove it by how hard you work to change. Behavior is the best indicator that a person is truly contrite and working to really change. Living and dealing with persons of deficient character is always difficult, but many people increase the level of pain they experience in their relationships with problem characters by buying into the notion that if a person says they’re sorry, sheds a tear, or looks unhappy, and appears to mean well, things will necessarily be different. They give too much regard to a person’s regret and sorrow and don’t look hard enough for evidence of true contrition.

A person’s genuine willingness and commitment to make amends is always accompanied by plan of action to accomplish precisely those ends. In short, a person’s actions always speak louder than their words or even their emotional expressions. And I’m not talking about demonstrative gestures that make good impressions on others like going back to church or getting religion once again. The contrite person conducts themselves in a fundamentally different manner than they historically have. They might not do so perfectly or every time. But they evidence a constant effort toward reforming their conduct, and when they fall short they readily admit it and do their best to get back on course.

All too many times therapists as well as the victims of irresponsible characters make the assumption that things are moving in the right direction because the bad actor shed a tear or two about something horrible they did or said they were sorry. But even when sorrow is genuine, it’s certainly not enough to make a difference. Sorrow is an emotional response usually connected to the loss of something. And while it is always painful to lose – especially when losing something of great value – that kind of pain is not in and of itself a reliable predictor of change. Individuals who have been in abusive relationships and who give a lot of weight or credence to expressions of regret and sorrow are most often doomed to an escalating level of personal pain and hardship. And in proper cognitive-behavioral therapy for abusers, where the principal focus is on behavior and fostering fundamental attitudinal and behavioral change, the therapist has to be much less interested in what a person has to say and much more concerned about what he/she is doing to truly correct problematic thinking and behavior patterns and repairing damage they have done. Talk, as they say, is infinitely cheap. And therapy that just focuses on getting someone to express their feelings or communicate their regrets is likely doomed to be ineffective in fostering meaningful change.

Having some regret simply isn’t enough to make a person mend their ways. It takes a lot of concerted effort to overcome our shortcomings.The truly contrite individual works to make amends, to do better, and above all, to be better. That always involves demonstrable, consistent behavior – behavior that can be observed, monitored, encouraged, rewarded, and measured by both the therapist and other parties to a relationship with the troubled character.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

That actually explains it pretty well. 

The problem is almost ever BS because of the shock, the trauma, the pick me dance that they are engaged in, almost never understand this. 

They see regret about getting caught as remorse. It is not. 

I actually say that remorse take several months if not years to develop if it ever does. 

And remorse, is one of those things that can be quite hard to explain, easy to confuse with regret, but when you ACTAULLY SEE IT, you know what it is... 

Most never see true remorse...


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Blues Power,

I take exception to your comment that the BS does the pick me dance. I celebrated my third year of R Christmas Eve. I went scorched earth on my FWW. She did not know what hit her. No way in hell I was going to take that route. I let her know in no uncertain terms we were done and I took our marital bed which was a family heirloom and took it to my farm and built a bonfire and tossed it on the fire and made a video on my phone and sent it to her. I left the state I live in for six weeks. She tried to ambush me at our condo, and I sent her packing again. I told her death would have been far more merciful than your betrayal. 

You are correct that initially it is regret not remorse, but my wife realized the pain she caused me. She did not know why I had tuned out (PTSD)It took my wife about two months to show me true remorse. Our MC had us write letters to each other about her affair. Her apologizing to me, and me telling her how it felt and what it did to me. My letter was twenty pages long, and was read by the MC to her and about two thirds in when I opened up about my pain, she fell on the floor in a fetal position and cried her eyes out for at least fifteen minutes. I went to pick her up off the floor and the MC put his finger to his lips to tell me to be quiet and sit back down. I listen to her sob and she kept saying how sorry she was. Then and there I witnessed true remorse. That was a turning point in our “new marriage” as I refer to it.

And I will say you are correct in your assessment that it is hard to explain, easy to confuse with regret, but when you actually see it, you know what it is. I have seen true remorse, no doubt. Had I not, I would have continued the divorce process. I will say when I experienced it, it was one of the most moving moments of my life.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Blues Power,
> 
> I take exception to your comment that the BS does the pick me dance. I celebrated my third year of R Christmas Eve. I went scorched earth on my FWW. She did not know what hit her. No way in hell I was going to take that route. I let her know in no uncertain terms we were done and I took our marital bed which was a family heirloom and took it to my farm and built a bonfire and tossed it on the fire and made a video on my phone and sent it to her. I left the state I live in for six weeks. She tried to ambush me at our condo, and I sent her packing again. I told her death would have been far more merciful than your betrayal.
> 
> ...


No, not you. I mean in general. 

If it is working for you, and you actually feel that she is remorseful and trustworthy more power to you. 

I am saying in general... 

And BTW, you also recognized it when you saw it, now didn't you... 

Most don't see it...


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

Regret means nothing really. 

Remorse is a bit better, but damage repair is very hard work that must come from within. If a person has cheated, they lack the introspection to feel true remorse, so contriction is not even in their radar, and more than likely never will be in this lifetime. 

A truly healthy individual in all forms: physical, ethical, emotional, and most of all spiritual; will have instances of clarity that will help them navigate successfully away from the infidelity trap. If they are not fully well rounded, they will fail and pay the terrible consequences that will come. The loved ones that get hurt are just casualities, but the most pain and suffering comes to those that fell in the trap. It is sad to realize how easily many fall into this trap and just how easily society sees this as normal. Families suffer the ripple effects of this. Children are wounded into adulthood because of this as well. It destroys so much, it is mindboggling yet so damn prevalent!


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Why are they ONLY remorseful after getting caught? I have more respect for those the Fk up and come clean rather it being dragged out of them after the fact. I'm not sure if one can tell between remorse, regret, guilt or whatever else if it only came to an end because they got busted. I'm not sure if its worth finding out which they are, either. Confession or not, that disrespect is just something I can't accept in a spouse. But I think it is important.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Why are they remorseful after getting caught? I have more respect for those the Fk up and come clean rather it being dragged out of them after the fact. I'm not sure if one can tell between remorse, regret, guilt or whatever else if it only came to an end because they got busted. I'm not sure if its worth finding out which they are, either. Confession or not, that disrespect is just something I can't accept in a spouse. But there is a difference.


While I do not disagree with you, the thing is, none of them are remorseful after getting caught. 

Now, I am not saying that some of them will never BE remorseful, but it takes time and consequences and even then it may not happen. 

Now like @No Longer Lonely Husband, he feels like his wife IS remorseful, and by what he describes she does sound like it. And he sounds like he is in a healthy reconciliation. But he is one of the few. 

But I am like you, I would never, ever, ever, take back a cheating wife or GF for any reason. 

In fact, I have already told my GF, whom I plan to marry, 1) there will be a pre-nup, and 2) is will say that either of us will forfeit any accumulated marital property and walk away, if one or the other is caught cheating. 

She is OK with it, because she worries about my past with women, but she does not understand how that works in my mind. At this point I don't have any need for other women, because I have her. 

But we will both protect our assets, for our kids and for each other...


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I am like you, I would never, ever, ever, take back a cheating wife or GF for any reason.


Regret ? Remorse ? Repentance ? Contrition ?

Here's a quarter.
Call someone who cares.
Not my problem.
Bye.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

> And BTW, you also recognized it when you saw it, now didn't you...
> 
> Most don't see it...


Indeed.i recognized it and it is hard to describe. She felt my anguish and she told me if a divorce was what I needed to heal she would not contest it. She has gone the extra mile for our relationship.

We are doing exceptionally well and without true remorse on her part, r would not have been impossible.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Indeed.i recognized it and it is hard to describe. She felt my anguish and she told me if a divorce was what I needed to heal she would not contest it. She has gone the extra mile for our relationship.
> 
> We are doing exceptionally well and without true remorse on her part, r would not have been impossible.


I will be honest with you, when reading your stuff a while back I did not agree with R for you, but as always that is your decision. 

I this case I can say that I think I was wrong. 

But, on the remorse issue, what you saw, and what makes it actual remorse, was when she on the floor in pain, that was when she was able to feel YOUR PAIN THAT SHE CAUSED. 

That is when you can feel strongly that it actually is true remorse. And I use non concrete words because, in reality can we ever really know what is in someone's heart. 

But, that display, and horrific as it was to watch, does give you the actual view of her remorse and I also think a glimpse of the love that she actually has for you.

For me, I never ever saw anything like that with my ex for any of the crap that she put me through, and their are worse things than an affair, let me assure you. 

There was a time, years ago, that I would have welcomed that from her, but it was never there. 

And frankly I take pleasure that she lives in a ****ty rent house, working for **** money, and I am with the most wonderful woman I have ever know in my life, that is better looking, better in bed, and may technically have more money than I do. 

I know that make me a **** and I am fine with that, in the end she (the ex) got everything she deserved...


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> without true remorse on her part, r would not have been impossible.





BluesPower said:


> There was a time, years ago, that I would have welcomed that from her, but it was never there.


Even though I have a bitter spirit about cheating and cheaters, I'm truly glad to hear this and know that in some cases, the wayward "gets it" and reconciliation is possible.

I hope you have many more happy years together, and to your wife, my hat's off....


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

The last three years have gone by fast. R was a decision I chose after careful evaluation of my actions where I failed as a husband (too focused on business) and hers where she failed as a wife (affair) to reconcile rather than divorce. However, for the first month after Dday, I was hellbent on divorce. I had to reach a point of clarity and let go of the extreme amount of anger within myself. The question that I kept playing over and over in my mind was “would my life be better or be worse without her in my life?”. I realized that we had shared too many good times and if she showed true remorse, I could do it.

I took much criticism for my abrupt change of direction, but it was the correct decision for us. I would be lying if I said it was easy. The first six months I had to bite my tongue many a time and control my anger as I triggered frequently. I did make one comment when a gal I had broken an engagement off with prior to meeting my wife was trying to re-enter the picture while we were in early R. I remember my wife’s comment to me vividly when she was worried about “V” and me. I told my wife there was nothing to worry about as far as “V” goes. My wife made the comment that I did not understand how women operated. I told my wife, “I do now. Far better than I did a few months ago”. Sent wife too the moon with that zinger LOL.

What you have to realize is @BluesPower and @TJW is sometimes reconciliation is a viable option. It was and has been for me. Our communication is far better than it has been since we married. She is patient with me when I trigger, although it is far less frequent now.

Peace.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> The last three years have gone by fast. R was a decision I chose after careful evaluation of my actions where I failed as a husband (too focused on business) and hers where she failed as a wife (affair) to reconcile rather than divorce. However, for the first month after Dday, I was hellbent on divorce. I had to reach a point of clarity and let go of the extreme amount of anger within myself. The question that I kept playing over and over in my mind was “would my life be better or be worse without her in my life?”. I realized that we had shared too many good times and if she showed true remorse, I could do it.
> 
> I took much criticism for my abrupt change of direction, but it was the correct decision for us. I would be lying if I said it was easy. The first six months I had to bite my tongue many a time and control my anger as I triggered frequently. I did make one comment when a gal I had broken an engagement off with prior to meeting my wife was trying to re-enter the picture while we were in early R. I remember my wife’s comment to me vividly when she was worried about “V” and me. I told my wife there was nothing to worry about as far as “V” goes. My wife made the comment that I did not understand how women operated. I told my wife, “I do now. Far better than I did a few months ago”. Sent wife too the moon with that zinger LOL.
> 
> ...


How did you let go of the anger? My anger makes me feel hatred.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> What you have to realize is @BluesPower and @TJW is sometimes reconciliation is a viable option. It was and has been for me. Our communication is far better than it has been since we married. She is patient with me when I trigger, although it is far less frequent now.


I get you. But a couple of things for you. I know you are in a good place. 

But understand, that the zingers were warranted in my opinion. 

And, you made the decision, and frankly it seems to have worked out for you. And I am happy for you. 

However, what you need to understand is that you are ONE of the few that have, so far, had a successful reconciliation. And as you rightly stated, SHE SHOWED actual remorse. Which among other things are required for R. But the fact that she got to the point that she actually FELT SOME, and only some, of the pain that SHE caused you, that is what has to happen for this to work. You got that, so good for you. 

But think about this, she still choose screw another man while married to you. She had other choices because it was a choice. SHE CHOOE to do that. And no matter what, brother that sucks. 

While I am glad it worked out for you, I firmly believe that it does not work out for most men for sure. 

I think we are about the same age, I am 54, and my exes affair was not the reason that I divorced her. But it should have been 15 years ago. And I was just too stupid to know it. It took a lot more, and my kids being grown, and having a stroke because of her bull****, to realize I was a complete moron for ever staying with her. 

But just as we should realize that R can happen, I think you should realize that a healthy successful reconciliations is actually about as rare as hen's teeth. 

At this age, I would never be with any that even thought about cheating on me. I am literally twice the man that most guys my age are, and I don't need to deal with that, ever. 

Frankly, women are just to plentiful to be with one that is not madly in love and completely loyal to you. 

Having said all of that, my current GF, it the best one ever, and that is saying something. If she does not go crazy or do something stupid I am in it for life with her...


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## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

I know there are many reconciliation success stories out there. I’m happy for them.

But there were others I saw where the cheater was a really good actor. There was one such BS on SI that had a WS that was seemingly the picture perfect model of a remorseful spouse.

The BS ended up posting about another D-Day. The WS was in contact with the AP the whole time through some other shady form of communication.

They’re divorcing.

So my take on this is that we can never really know for sure. Just that if the WS is willing to prove their authenticity through their actions, then maybe something can be rebuilt from the wreckage.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> How did you let go of the anger? My anger makes me feel hatred.


Much prayer. Never discount the power of prayer or the power of the Almighty. You have to get to this point or you will literally ruin your health. I went through a tremdous amount of therapy and I “boss back” bad thoughts by giving mine a name when they occur. I named my bad thoughts “Leo”. When Leo appears I tell him to go the hell away in my thoughts.
Strange, but it works.

By holding on to anger, you give the person causing your anger control over you. I would advise you to seek out your pastor or find a good counselor. You can do it. If I can let go, anyone can.:smile2:


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

For each person, it is different. Some need remorse. Maybe it validates them. Maybe it takes the need for revenge away because you can't kick someone when they get it. It could be any number of things.

I find it artificial to set this as the standard. Just because your WS has it does not unscrew or unbetray you. I mean, suppose they only wanted to bang one person? They did it all and were totally done. No more cheating ever. They are safe. How does remorse change that? 

Anyway, I think if one needs remorse or regret or affirmation of or whatever, then take it when it comes. It is not, however, the standard. It is unfair to put that out there for BS as this thing to look for. Divorce or breaking up is just a consequence to betrayal. Remorse is nice and shows that a WS appreciates the damage they caused, but it does not undo that damage. 

To others, it is enough to justify staying. To each their own. As much as I HATE to think that I judge those who take a remorseful WS back, I know that I do. I am being honest in divulging that. Male or female. I wish I did not and I am working on it. I try not to advocate for or against R and focus only on them being true to themselves. Our lives are so complicated and unique that I cannot or should not judge those who work it out or praise those who go scorched earth because I don't know their lives nor do I have to live them. I will say, I came to my feelings by seeing those who stayed and those who left, in my life, and those who ended it are ALL happier.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

bigfoot said:


> For each person, it is different. Some need remorse. Maybe it validates them. Maybe it takes the need for revenge away because you can't kick someone when they get it. It could be any number of things.
> 
> I find it artificial to set this as the standard. Just because your WS has it does not unscrew or unbetray you. I mean, suppose they only wanted to bang one person? They did it all and were totally done. No more cheating ever. They are safe. How does remorse change that?
> 
> ...


Agreed. I don't believe in reconciliation. Remorse or no remorse. I hold people to the same standards I hold myself to.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Great read. In the end, we all have to choose to take a chance or not. Any relationship requires that, from friendship to marriage. We will never know with certainty, that nothing will ever happen to ruin it. We also must know that it will change as we do with life experiences and time. No one can be certain of anything. Some are what I consider to be, lucky. They have a nice life and are content. They probably won't change due to anything within the marriage. Since we cannot control anything except our own actions, we don't know what life has in store for us, or what will happen and effect a change in us. 

Any kind of guarantee we believe is basically denial. 

Yes, consistency in action offers a very good chance that all will be well, but it is never a guarantee.


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## Uselessmale (May 20, 2017)

This is a hard one for me. When in mc, wife “said she was sorry”, for the verbal and emotional abuse. The mc couldn’t understand why I just couldn’t forgive and forget. A sarcastic” sorry, I’ve done everything humanly possible”, is just not contrite. I have been accused of not knowing what a true apology is. My gut instincts tell me not to fall for it, because the rest of her actions haven’t changed.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Uselessmale said:


> This is a hard one for me. When in mc, wife “said she was sorry”, for the verbal and emotional abuse. The mc couldn’t understand why I just couldn’t forgive and forget. A sarcastic” sorry, I’ve done everything humanly possible”, is just not contrite. I have been accused of not knowing what a true apology is. My gut instincts tell me not to fall for it, because the rest of her actions haven’t changed.


Which is why you should not be with her still...

But to the point of an actual apology... I don't think you can accept someone's apology without it being sincere and that they have actually shown some type of contrition. 

I think that goes for everything but doubly in the case of infidelity. If they do not have, and show some type of contrition, which should lead to or be part of actually remorse, then what is the point? 

What does it matter if someone apologizes for something, and they really deep down don't think they have really done anything that it THAT wrong...

In those cases, you can shove the apology where the sun does not shine...


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*"One of the more reliable outward signs that someone has really experienced a change of heart is their willingness and commitment to make amends. The contrite person is not only “sorry” for what he/she has done but is willing to repair the damage inflicted on the lives of others."*

I think this is such a load of bull.

A cheater has TWO choices when they're caught - go to divorce court, or stay in the marital home and do as much as they can to AVOID ending up in divorce court.

Which choice do you THINK most of them pick?

Someone doing all they can to repair the damage they've caused doesn't automatically mean they're remorseful. Not at all. It simply means they're doing whatever they *can* to insure they stay right where they want to be - in the marital home.

So many of those SI members have fallen for the phony 'remorse' routine put on by their cheaters - then came back a year or two later to post that their cheater was caught cheating *again* - even though they'd "done all the hard work!" <insert eye roll here>

Busting your ass to do whatever it is you need to do in order to keep your family is NOT remorse. It's self preservation.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Why are they ONLY remorseful after getting caught? I have more respect for those the Fk up and come clean rather it being dragged out of them after the fact. I'm not sure if one can tell between remorse, regret, guilt or whatever else if it only came to an end because they got busted. I'm not sure if its worth finding out which they are, either. Confession or not, that disrespect is just something I can't accept in a spouse. But I think it is important.


Another good point.

They're only _*'remorseful'*_ AFTER they've been caught, they've lied and lied and denied as long as they could, and couldn't lie their way out of it anymore. Then, that magical 'remorse' suddenly comes along.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Uselessmale said:


> The mc couldn’t understand why I just couldn’t forgive and forget.


No wonder K-Mart is closing stores..... they sold all those phony mc certificates..... 



Uselessmale said:


> My gut instincts tell me not to fall for it, because the rest of her actions haven’t changed.


Exactly right. If the actions don't change, there has been no change of heart, either.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Uselessmale said:


> This is a hard one for me. When in mc, wife “said she was sorry”, for the verbal and emotional abuse. The mc couldn’t understand why I just couldn’t forgive and forget. A sarcastic” sorry, I’ve done everything humanly possible”, is just not contrite. I have been accused of not knowing what a true apology is. My gut instincts tell me not to fall for it, because the rest of her actions haven’t changed.


You're *still* with someone who can't even show you the respect most of us show a stranger on the street??

I'm sure you must have your 'why.'


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Here is another issue I see with this. It just came to me. 

Your cheating partner had little issue with you believing him/her. It was easy and you gulped down those lies like a starving child. You wanted to believe them. You needed to believe nothing was going on. 

What have You learned?!

If you tell me you would know now, when s/he is lying, you'd have to prove that to me. Why? Because you want her/him back in your life. And, you are willing to do whatever it takes to get her/him back. 

In my reality, s/he would need to come to me and then work like **** to have me trust her. I wouldn't move her back in with me for years... and maybe never. Let him/her pay for their own life and entertainment. Let them find someone to go on dates with and see how it is in the world they chose. Yeah, it means I would be alone, but I was alone from before the time she decided to cheat. I just didn't realize it. Neither did many others. 


I'd date others while s/he was working his/her way back into my good graces. I would not be sweating her/his issues. I'd tell that counselor that her/his apology is worthless without plenty of work on her/his part. Why? It took time to get married, to choose that lifelong(in my mind) commitment to dealing with their issues when I come home, to staying out of the way when s/he needed it and being there, even if I didn't really want to, when s/he needed me. 


It's obvious to me, s/he did not think I was right for them. What changed in me that they now think I am worthy of them? I think I'd look at myself deeply, and try to assess where I am at, before believing one damn thing.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> You're *still* with someone who can't even show you the respect most of us show a stranger on the street??
> I'm sure you must have your 'why.'


I, for one, would like to know if your "why" is the same as mine was, although I think it's common reason.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Remorse as typed:

... --- .-. .-. -.-- 

Sorry



Redone in Morse, no longer code.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Here is another issue I see with this. It just came to me.
> 
> Your cheating partner had little issue with you believing him/her. It was easy and you gulped down those lies like a starving child. You wanted to believe them. You needed to believe nothing was going on.
> 
> ...


Aye!

Eyes open!

All hands on deck.
All eyes peeled to spot land, a welcoming harbor.

In short, if one was not good Afore, why so Aft of the cunning Bridge that separates both ends of reason.
One end is reasonable, the other without sail.




[THM]-


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LosingHim said:


> How did you let go of the anger? My anger makes me feel hatred.


Anger and hate are just the first stages, let it process, then it becomes indifference.

That's what you should feel towards wayward spouses IMO; nothing. They aren't worth anything. Dump as trash and good riddance.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Another good point.
> 
> They're only _*'remorseful'*_ AFTER they've been caught, they've lied and lied and denied as long as they could, and couldn't lie their way out of it anymore. Then, that magical 'remorse' suddenly comes along.


This is exactly what I believe too.If the wayward owns up,begs for forgiveness and offers complete transparency on phones,social media etc the Just maybe there’s a chance of reconciliation.
Under no circumstances should the wayward be believed if he or she is caught in the act.
They only want to keep their lifestyle and reputation intact and what’s to prevent them looking for a divorce in a few years time anyway when a better settlement might be available.
Remember this.Most prenup agreements aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on and hoes are gonna hoe.Male and female ones.


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## Uselessmale (May 20, 2017)

I moved out in July and will start the process soon to get the D done. Lots of reasons it has taken so long, but I’m just at the point where I am not afraid she will come over the table at me when I tell her the truth, when we have a conversation. Daughter also getting married this year. That has complicated things


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> This is exactly what I believe too.If the wayward owns up,begs for forgiveness and offers complete transparency on phones,social media etc the Just maybe there’s a chance of reconciliation.
> Under no circumstances should the wayward be believed if he or she is caught in the act.
> They only want to keep their lifestyle and reputation intact and what’s to prevent them looking for a divorce in a few years time anyway when a better settlement might be available.
> Remember this.Most prenup agreements aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on and hoes are gonna hoe.Male and female ones.


Speaking of pre-nups, how very sad is it when you literally have to resort to SCARING your cheater into staying loyal to you? The BS is basically hoping the pre-nup will keep their WS honest and on the straight and narrow because now, they have it in writing that the WS will be wearing a barrel when they leave divorce court if they're caught with their hands in the cookie jar again. Of course, the BS is also looking for some kind of financial security should their cheater get caught again and I think they're definitely entitled to it. But I think most of them are really hoping the pre-nup will scare their cheater into submission. 

I can't imagine being in a marriage with ANYONE where I have to have a legal contract in place hoping it scares him into being loyal to me. Just shoot me behind the freakin' barn if I have to settle for a situation that pitiful. Good lord.

As far as the cheater, as I've said numerous times in this thread - I think most will say and do anything they need to in order to avoid divorce court - and that includes agreeing to a silly post-nup that likely won't hold up in court anyway. The moment a divorce lawyer or judge sees a post-nup that's heavily slanted toward one spouse getting all the spoils, it's usually thrown out.

But I don't think it's a guarantee that their cheater will suddenly behave. I just think most cheaters will be *extra *special careful not to get caught again, is all.


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## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

Thanks for posting. It put in words thoughts that I've been wrestling with. Much clearer now.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> The last three years have gone by fast. R was a decision I chose after careful evaluation of my actions where I failed as a husband (too focused on business) and hers where she failed as a wife (affair) to reconcile rather than divorce. However, for the first month after Dday, I was hellbent on divorce. I had to reach a point of clarity and let go of the extreme amount of anger within myself. The question that I kept playing over and over in my mind was “would my life be better or be worse without her in my life?”. I realized that we had shared too many good times and if she showed true remorse, I could do it.
> 
> I took much criticism for my abrupt change of direction, but it was the correct decision for us. I would be lying if I said it was easy. The first six months I had to bite my tongue many a time and control my anger as I triggered frequently. I did make one comment when a gal I had broken an engagement off with prior to meeting my wife was trying to re-enter the picture while we were in early R. I remember my wife’s comment to me vividly when she was worried about “V” and me. I told my wife there was nothing to worry about as far as “V” goes. My wife made the comment that I did not understand how women operated. I told my wife, “I do now. Far better than I did a few months ago”. Sent wife too the moon with that zinger LOL.
> 
> ...


Agree. There will be things we don't like about anyone and them us. So, instead of taking years to understand them and them us, as well as acceptance of each other, why not work with what we have already done that with? 



> better the devil you know (than the devil you don't)
> saying
> ​
> said when you think it is wiser to deal with someone or something familiar, although you do not like him, her, or it, than to deal with someone or something you do not know that might be worse


https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us...r-the-devil-you-know-than-the-devil-you-don-t

On the other hand, as I said in an earlier post, rather than accepting that you have done something to cause them to stray, all BS' need to think about how they have changed.

NO, not in this manner that you describe. 

I mean, she doesn't like you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't love you.

How have you changed from that man she did not like to someone new? I do not mean spend more quality time with her. 

I mean, she doesn't like your core human nature that is there because of your dna and life experiences. Guess what? That doesn't change easily. Simply spending more quality time with her won't change how she feels about you. She already decided, long ago, she doesn't want you. 

There is nothing you can do to change her back to what you were. Simply doing more for her will not change her feelings toward you. However, she may be able to put up with being with you because you are doing more for her and providing her with more freedom, while attempting change that will do nothing to change the fatal decisions(for your relationship/marriage) she made. 

I truly hope you both stay in denial and work things out. It's possible to find contentment. It's a sight easier than starting over.

Edit: The brain chemistry and connections change under circumstances of infidelity. New neuropathways are produced to connect to different source memories. You'd have to change those, as well. It would take more than a nice dinner a sex to do that. It takes some trauma. Yes, even mild trauma like losing someone you love or deciding to replace their memories with an AP or two.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Speaking of pre-nups, how very sad is it when you literally have to resort to SCARING your cheater into staying loyal to you? The BS is basically hoping the pre-nup will keep their WS honest and on the straight and narrow because now, they have it in writing that the WS will be wearing a barrel when they leave divorce court if they're caught with their hands in the cookie jar again. Of course, the BS is also looking for some kind of financial security should their cheater get caught again and I think they're definitely entitled to it. But I think most of them are really hoping the pre-nup will scare their cheater into submission.
> 
> *I can't imagine being in a marriage with ANYONE where I have to have a legal contract in place hoping it scares him into being loyal to me. * Just shoot me behind the freakin' barn if I have to settle for a situation that pitiful. Good lord.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, this is exactly what a man must do, in order to get married. Reads like you, "get it".


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Agree. There will be things we don't like about anyone and them us. So, instead of taking years to understand them and them us, as well as acceptance of each other, why not work with what we have already done that with?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> ?


I can't try to clarify, if you simply make one key stroke.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> No Longer Lonely Husband said:
> 
> 
> > ?
> ...


Not understanding the total context of your quote. Are you talking in general or specifically concluding my wife does not love me?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Re: Identifying true remorse 

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Longer Lonely Husband View Post 
The last three years have gone by fast. R was a decision I chose after careful evaluation of my actions where I failed as a husband (too focused on business) and hers where she failed as a wife (affair) to reconcile rather than divorce. However, for the first month after Dday, I was hellbent on divorce. I had to reach a point of clarity and let go of the extreme amount of anger within myself. The question that I kept playing over and over in my mind was “would my life be better or be worse without her in my life?”. I realized that we had shared too many good times and if she showed true remorse, I could do it.

I took much criticism for my abrupt change of direction, but it was the correct decision for us. I would be lying if I said it was easy. The first six months I had to bite my tongue many a time and control my anger as I triggered frequently. I did make one comment when a gal I had broken an engagement off with prior to meeting my wife was trying to re-enter the picture while we were in early R. I remember my wife’s comment to me vividly when she was worried about “V” and me. I told my wife there was nothing to worry about as far as “V” goes. My wife made the comment that I did not understand how women operated. I told my wife, “I do now. Far better than I did a few months ago”. Sent wife too the moon with that zinger LOL.

What you have to realize is @BluesPower and @TJW is sometimes reconciliation is a viable option. It was and has been for me. Our communication is far better than it has been since we married. She is patient with me when I trigger, although it is far less frequent now.

Peace.end quote NLLH.

From 2ntnuf:
Agree. There will be things we don't like about anyone and them us. So, instead of taking years to understand them and them us, as well as acceptance of each other, why not work with what(whom) we have already done that with? 

Quote by 2ntnuf from a reference book, to explain what I was thinking, which was, "sometimes, it's easier to live with the devil you know than the devil you don't":

better the devil you know (than the devil you don't)
saying 
​
said when you think it is wiser to deal with someone or something familiar, although you do not like him, her, or it, than to deal with someone or something you do not know that might be worse
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...evil-you-don-t



From 2ntnuf: On the other hand, as I said in an earlier post, rather than accepting that you have done something to cause them to stray, all BS' need to think about how they have changed.

NO, not in this manner that you describe. 

I mean, she doesn't like you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't love you.

NLLH, you do know, many folks who stray justify their decisions with why they deserve to stray. Many of them find things they dislike about their partner to justify their actions. They must decide and do in many instances, they do not like you and do not want you, specifically because they are risking their marriage with you and possibly changing the course of their lives. If your wife is intelligent, she likely at least partially considered these things. If she didn't, well, maybe you made a mistake taking her back? 

Of course, there are outliers who don't have to justify anything, and those are truly frightening folks, since they had no feelings. Now, I may have overstepped my bounds here, not knowing your situation and making a general statement like this. I feel pretty confident that, if you decided to marry her, she must have felt something for you and you realized it, rather than you being infatuated and deciding to marry without consideration for her feelings. 

So, my conclusion is, she decided she didn't want or like you before she made the move to be unfaithful. She isn't stupid, nor trying to harm you. She just realized she didn't want you or the life with you. I then asked the following question and gave some explanation of what I meant. 

How have you changed from that man she did not like to someone new? I do not mean spend more quality time with her. 

I mean, she doesn't like your core human nature that is there because of your dna and life experiences. Guess what? That doesn't change easily. Simply spending more quality time with her won't change how she feels about you. She already decided, long ago, she doesn't want you. 

So, then, I wanted you to know, after reading how you are changing what you are doing in an effort to win her love and devotion. For some, that may work. For others, it will only make it easier for them to cope with the ever nagging inner feelings that they push back while trying to convince themselves they are happier now, than when they made the decision to be unfaithful. That's two changes in core beliefs within a human being. Damn, that's tough to believe... for me, anyway. Your mileage may vary. So I said below. 

There is nothing you can do to change her back to what you(as a couple in love/lust) were. Simply doing more for her will not change her feelings toward you. However, she may be able to put up with being with you because you are doing more for her and providing her with more freedom, while attempting change that will do nothing to change the fatal decisions(for your relationship/marriage) she made. 

I truly hope you both stay in denial and work things out. It's possible to find contentment. It's a sight easier than starting over.

I tend to believe that reconciliation can easily be a state of denial in which we chose something other than ideal and lie to ourselves because it is simpler. Referring to, the devil you know comment. 

Edit: The brain chemistry and connections change under circumstances of infidelity. New neuropathways are produced to connect to different source memories. You'd have to change those, as well. It would take more than a nice dinner a sex to do that. It takes some trauma. Yes, even mild trauma like losing someone you love or deciding to replace their memories with an AP or two.

The above is simply something I read from several sources and believe to be true. Studies have been performed since I first read it and conclude similarly. It was simply a statement backing my thoughts. 

We all do as we think is best. Many will refuse to believe anything I've posted here and it will work for them. That's the wonder of humanity. No one knows the capacity of an individual to forgive, be remorseful as you have been, and work to change their actions for the one they love. Is it love or obsession? Not sure, but I think it is a necessary combination of the two, with some brain chemicals backing our decisions. In time, we know the truth and all of this speculation, including yours and mine becomes meaningless.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*While synonymously alike, I believe that the words "remorse" and "contrition" have markedly different definitions!*


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Much prayer. Never discount the power of prayer or the power of the Almighty. You have to get to this point or you will literally ruin your health. I went through a tremdous amount of therapy and I “boss back” bad thoughts by giving mine a name when they occur. I named my bad thoughts “Leo”. When Leo appears I tell him to go the hell away in my thoughts.
> Strange, but it works.
> 
> By holding on to anger, you give the person causing your anger control over you. I would advise you to seek out your pastor or find a good counselor. You can do it. If I can let go, anyone can.:smile2:


You learned coping skills, and you also mentioned the triggers and the zingers and her being patient when you have a hard time. 

I don't know how any of that is considered successful reconciliation. I don't know how that term exists. Whoever coined it should be shot because there is no such thing if a person has to live with the pain and sadness for the rest of their lives or the rest of their marriage with outbursts and coping skills when the memory of it comes creeping back in. And honestly, I wouldn't stay with my betrayed spouse if I had to live my marriage continually paying for what I did.

I think there are two kinds of people who do not end their marriage/relationship after infidelity. One is the person who cannot separate their pain from love, and then can't separate love from logic. Lets face it, events in a person's life, like break ups and betrayal, make the heart grow fonder. They have a way of wreaking havoc and sending both the psyche and emotional system into supersonic overdrive. In spite of the pain, or perhaps because of the pain, either event makes a person want their partner exponentially more desperately, makes a person exponentially more lustful for their partner. That comes from the sudden and urgent need, prompted by the event, for a person to be loved and wanted since the event itself reduces and marginalizes a person's identity and sense of value. And then, because of those strong emotions, a person falls prey to their own inability to separate the reality of the event from the pain that it caused. It all becomes too complex and too difficult to mentally compartmentalize and wade through. To remedy the overload in order to make a decision, a person defaults to minimal degree mode, basing decisions on that which will require the least amount of rational deliberation and that which most aligns with those turbulent emotions.

The second type of person is one who suffers from guilt. I think, infidelity is unforgivable not matter how remorseful or contrite, but a marriage is otherwise worth working on and saving. However, in the case of mistreatment or abuse of any kind, all bets are off. As far as I'm concerned, cheating is understandable (and forgivable) and divorce is mandatory. I'm not sure it's possible for an abusive person to change, at least not for the long term, but maybe a person can become remorseful and guilty for having mistreated their partner that they forgive the infidelity.

And, well, I guess there is a third kind of person who really doesn't care. Maybe there are people who don't actually feel fidelity is necessary or important in marriage. But even those who want an open marriage still get jealous or hurt when their spouse break whatever defined rules. As if rules could matter anyway, but still I guess they think they do.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Re: Identifying true remorse
> 
> 
> From 2ntnuf:
> ...


I am puzzled how you deduce she does not love me and that we are in denial. Wow. What an assumption on your part.
Granted you are correct how she felt about me when she cheated. However, we are doing well, communicating better, And we are truly happy. I forgave her and she showed true remorse and has atoned for her transgression against me.

I feel better than I have in years mentally, also. 

Peace.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

StarFires said:


> You learned coping skills, and you also mentioned the triggers and the zingers and her being patient when you have a hard time.
> 
> I don't know how any of that is considered successful reconciliation. I don't know how that term exists. Whoever coined it should be shot because there is no such thing if a person has to live with the pain and sadness for the rest of their lives or the rest of their marriage with outbursts and coping skills when the memory of it comes creeping back in. And honestly, I wouldn't stay with my betrayed spouse if I had to live my marriage continually paying for what I did.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on your assessment of my relationship. I am happy. She is happy.
And we love each other. None of us is perfect. The only perfect person I know was nailed to a cross.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I am puzzled how you deduce she does not love me and that we are in denial. Wow. What an assumption on your part.
> Granted you are correct how she felt about me when she cheated. However, we are doing well, communicating better, And we are truly happy. I forgave her and she showed true remorse and has atoned for her transgression against me.
> 
> I feel better than I have in years mentally, also.
> ...


Fair enough.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Hmmm. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on your assessment of my relationship. I am happy. She is happy.
> And we love each other. None of us is perfect. The only perfect person I know was nailed to a cross.


Fair enough. That you are both happy is all that should matter.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

StarFires said:


> Fair enough. That you are both happy is all that should matter.


I personally think that a BS decision to D or R is as personal and unique in that's pretty useless to try to stick any definition(s), personal characteristics, traits or other, to the BS....is truly their choice to live with and has a very unlikely chance to affect anyone as much as them. Hardly is the true entire detailed nature of their marriage or relationship fully disclosed on here, so there could be plenty of other factors at play that we are clueless about.
I no longer give advice to anyone about staying or leaving....what I like to weigh in is for the BS not to be abused, and specifically when they continue to be cheated on even after discovery....that's just cruelty and abuse

Sent from my BTV-W09 using Tapatalk


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