# % of wives who fall out of love?



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Since the divorce rate is 50%, we'll start there. Actually, now that I think about it, it can end there. I wouldn't bet $20 on a coin toss, yet millions of people bet their LIVES on one every year. 

But from what I've read and witnessed, a coin toss would be GREAT odds compared to reality. So what are the odds of marrying a woman and it REALLY being "happily ever after? 1 in 4? One in 10? WORSE?

It's illegal to bet $10 on a basketball bracket. Yet we ENCOURAGE young people to go all-in on their lives against almost insurmountable odds ALL THE TIME. Every time I read yet ANOTHER post of a man who is SHOCKED to learn his wife has checked out, I just shake my head. That's like being "shocked" that the little metal ball on the roulette wheel didn't land on 26 and you lost $1,000. I can give THAT gambler great advice on not making that bet. Don't do it. But your daughter is getting married? CONGRATULATIONS! Drinks are on me.

One frat boy punk makes a single racist/sexist comment to another frat boy punk and the world mobilized to try and eliminate this scar on humanity. "WE WILL FIX THIS, damnit"!! Yet we encourage our kids, our daughters, to take a leap of faith into an arrangement that we KNOW will probably fail.

I don't get it.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I would hope that we teach our kids to be sensible, not leap without looking, but that ultimately they make their own choices and live with the benefits and or consequences of such. That's provided they are adults. Before that time it's the parent's job to make those rational choices in their favour. 

I married at 23. I moved country, knew what I wanted, and was happy with my choice for many years. Things didn't work out, I got a bomb dropped on me, I moved again, lost a lot, but it was all part of the choice I made all that time ago. Just because things went sour, didn't mean I'd done wrong... I didn't know what the future would hold. 

I don't regret my choice to marry because at the time, it was the right choice. I still thought it was right after I'd processed my divorce because it changed me, taught me many life lessons, and allowed me to become the woman I am today. These things I could not have learned just because someone told me so. Was it expensive to learn? Yes. Was it fair? No. That is life and that is what more children should be taught.

The pursuit of the dream should never be hindered in the young. The reality of the potholes, hurdles, and unpredictability of life should also be taught along side. 

If we at all desire marriage to take a more positive turn for longevity, then parents should actively teach children from young ages (in age appropriate ways) the values and lessons required for patience, communication, and boundaries.... All the things we discuss and suggest on TAM. However, the reality is that we (general) are imparting selfish values to our children, in the age of ADD and instant gratification.... Need I go on. 

So really, the 50% divorce rate is not surprising to me, but there are actions that can be taken to influence which side of the 50 young people will more likely follow.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Since the divorce rate is 50%, we'll start there. Actually, now that I think about it, it can end there. I wouldn't bet $20 on a coin toss, yet millions of people bet their LIVES on one every year.
> 
> But from what I've read and witnessed, a coin toss would be GREAT odds compared to reality. So what are the odds of marrying a woman and it REALLY being "happily ever after? 1 in 4? One in 10? WORSE?
> 
> ...


IMO, the divorce rate would be far less if everybody did their due diligence before marriage. That sounds harsh, but people tend to rush into things (especially these days) and also have the tendency to call it quits after the first bit of trouble. It's the society we live in these days, where things are disposable, and it's not difficult to move on to the next person.

We see this type of thing everywhere, not just in relationships. I mean, my grandparents bought a car, they kept the damn thing for 20 years, until it died. Now most people buy a new car every few years. As soon as it starts giving you trouble, it's time to get a new one. People used to fix things, but they generally don't anymore. Often it's just easier to throw it away and get a new one.

These same attitudes are spilling over into relationships.

I think it's a false indicator of doom and gloom, where people are now led to believe marriage is pointless because of the statistics. The real problem is that people just don't have the patience or time to a) select the right mate and b) to try and fix things if they go South.


----------



## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

alexm said:


> I think it's a false indicator of doom and gloom, where people are now led to believe marriage is pointless because of the statistics. The real problem is that people just don't have the patience or time to a) select the right mate and b) to try and fix things if they go South.


:iagree:

It's the people in the marriage and there attitude who dictate if a marriage is successful, not statistics.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Every other agreement in life has consequences, if you default. You quit paying your mortgage, you lose your house, quit paying your car payment, bye bye car etc. Marriage has no consequences, you become unhappy, for whatever piddly reason, just get divorced or separate indefinitely. There becomes no incentive to work on anything. I always thought that divorce shouldn't be granted unless you show evidence for at least 12 months of really trying to fix things. Court ordered counseling or mediators that directed you on what to do. Marriage has become a "feel good for a while" illusion and it's no wonder that living together rates are up, while marriages are down. I really don't believe that couples go into it with the mindset of forever, but just a "let's see how long we can go" philosophy.
Coming from someone who believed in "til death do us part" twice, has made me negative.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> Every other agreement in life has consequences, if you default. You quit paying your mortgage, you lose your house, quit paying your car payment, bye bye car etc. Marriage has no consequences, you become unhappy, for whatever piddly reason, just get divorced or separate indefinitely. There becomes no incentive to work on anything. I always thought that divorce shouldn't be granted unless you show evidence for at least 12 months of really trying to fix things. Court ordered counseling or mediators that directed you on what to do. Marriage has become a "feel good for a while" illusion and it's no wonder that living together rates are up, while marriages are down. I really don't believe that couples go into it with the mindset of forever, but just a "let's see how long we can go" philosophy.
> Coming from someone who believed in "til death do us part" twice, has made me negative.



I'm sorry you clearly feel that you've been treated very very badly and unjustly. I think it is the feeling of unjust that is the hardest to get over or heal from. You feel like you did what you were supposed to do so why didn't this work. It hurst, it sucks, it's not fair.

While I agree with this post and the sentiments reflected, it's important to remember that the courts' purpose for being involved in a divorce is to settle the dissolution on the contract, the division of assets and enforce the agreements made about these and rights/responsibilities of parents.

In my state, many lawyers will push the couple to MC first. When I saw a lawyer about divorce, he suggested I try Retrouvaille first, then try mediation if that didn't work, before going back to him for divorce representation.


----------



## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

College graduation rates hover around 55%. Based on the odds should we discourage the young students not to bother trying? No! It's not the institution, it's the individuals involved.

BTW, Prevailing thought puts the divorce rate in the US somewhere around 35% for first marriages, not the 50% served up by the media for decades. If 100% of participants want to give it a go, who are we to discourage them from trying?

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." T.R.



WW, I've read a little of your postings. As hurtful as your experiences were, you continue to write. I take that as you will still endeavor to find what you're looking for, whatever it be. Best


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> Every other agreement in life has consequences, if you default. You quit paying your mortgage, you lose your house, quit paying your car payment, bye bye car etc. Marriage has no consequences, you become unhappy, for whatever piddly reason, just get divorced or separate indefinitely. There becomes no incentive to work on anything. I always thought that divorce shouldn't be granted unless you show evidence for at least 12 months of really trying to fix things. Court ordered counseling or mediators that directed you on what to do. Marriage has become a "feel good for a while" illusion and it's no wonder that living together rates are up, while marriages are down. I really don't believe that couples go into it with the mindset of forever, but just a "let's see how long we can go" philosophy.
> Coming from someone who believed in "til death do us part" twice, has made me negative.



Let's look at this another way. I buy a house and don't take care of it, it will fall apart. I also can't keep it if I stop making payments just because I bought it. 

If I neglect my health it will fall apart; I can try to get it back but it may never be the same.

I'm not guaranteed to keep my marriage simply because I entered into it, I have to put forth constant effort to take care of it. If I don't and it falls apart I may not get it back. Consequences, right? 

Men fall out of love and act like jerks all the time. Just because they don't file and still want sex doesn't mean they're particularly good husbands. When people point to vows they conveniently mean the vow to stay married, but the vows to love, honor, and cherish are conveniently overlooked as it suits them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This is what most fail to do...and it only takes one partner to fall down , start taking it all for granted.. that can ruin what could have been a beautiful thing.. 








...

I think no matter what age we are when we fall in love.. or think we have.. one thing to keep in mind is...

*>>* Love is Not Enough!... (Good article!)...speaks how LOVE does NOT = *compatibility* ...will not solve your relationship issues..it's not worth sacrificing yourself...and never forget the "Friendship Test"...

Our young people need to be very careful of even the smallest





















when meeting others... open up those areas, get them on the table.. worked out WHILE DATING.... don't push these small things down trusting the other when he/she says ..."Oh I'll be better after we get married ".. HOGWASH... 

...Too much drinking, a porn problem, secrets/ lying, trust issues, any addictions, too much time with friends, passive aggressive behaviors, can't hold a Job, workaholism, controlling behaviors, too tight with $$, an over spender in big debt...whatever it is...assume it will REMAIN.....you'd be a fool to think these are suddenly going to get better...once kids come, the responsibilities of family life, the unforeseen challenges.. 

More than anything.. we need to be able to lean on a responsible adult who "gets us"...is on the same page....working through the unforeseen that may smack us in the face...hopefully we didn't bring such things upon ourselves .. Life itself can throw enough curve balls (cancer, accidents, health issues, a disabled child, layoffs, etc) with us living & loving as best we can.

Trusting another human being to love & cherish us till death do us part - is putting a tremendous amount of TRUST in another human being.. I look upon ones character/ to their past history in relationships, their self awareness, how they handle conflict resolution..these things are all VITAL in choosing a partner.. and upping our odds it can last..

Also...Experts say it takes a good 18 + months for a couple to get beyond the INFATUATION stage, all those upped hormones, excitement where we think the other is the cat's meow..... if a couple is still feeling inseparable, the spark still there...AFTER these 18 months...with lots of shared experiences, healthy conflict resolution ...then they have beat the odds...more of a chance it can survive the long haul..


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

100%

It's 50% who keep falling back in love, or those still married. Same can be said for men.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have just a few random, but related reactions to this thread:

- Many people, men included, fall in and out of love with their partners. Some people check out forever; others try to give it more time and effort & sometimes find themselves back in love.

- TAM is more 'husband'-oriented than some other similar sites. If you perused the threads on those sites, you'd read story after story of middle-aged and older men leaving long-term marriages and leaving heartbroken wives behind.

- The 50% statistic, as I understand it, is 50% of registered marriages, not 50% of the married population. The statistic includes 'serial marryers,' i.e., people who have multiple marriages in their lifetimes. (There is a surprising number of these and they represent a noticeable chunk of the statistics.)

- It's common sense for us all that our role models as we grow up influence dramatically what we will do as adults. This is reflected in the divorce statistics as well, with children of divorce more likely to divorce themselves. When interviewed about their views on the subject, these people often say that marriage is something they can do, but know going in that it's probably not permanent, so they don't model very strong commitment behaviors. They are much more likely to bail when the going gets even a little rough.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The 50% stat comes form some reporter 30 years ago who looked at the number of marriages and the number of divorces that year on one city. 

He found that twice as many people got married that year as got divorced that year.

The 50% stat is meaningless.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> The 50% stat is meaningless.


I couldn't make my point clear AGAIN. Time for me to give up on posting here.

It's not just the % of divorces we're talking about. It's the total % of women who check out that has me concerned. Why would I let my daughter marry someone when it is almost a foregone conclusion that she will not even LIKE that man 10 years down the road let alone love him? Am I going to let my boys marry someone who is VERY likely to leave them emotionally 10 years hence?

I'm going to give the example of our close group of neighborhood friends. We were the last of these 4 couples to move into the neighborhood 20+ years ago. I know these people like family. One couple is now divorced (is 25% maybe a little closer Elle?). In the other three, the wife is gone from the marriage.

I understand this is a small sample size, but that was just an example. It's reading on this and similar depressing sites that has me extrapolating that small sample out to the general population.

I DREAD that day when my kids start coming to me excited about their "awesome" news. 

I dread it.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't know why you say your (hypothetical?) daughters' disinterest in her man 10 years after marriage is a foregone conclusion. 

It's an assumption.

Eta : other couples are not you or your children. Comparing with lives of others and what they have/do is a very slippery slope.

My mother was Not happy I married at 23 although I was happy and had a good life for many years, & when divorce happened that wasn't my fault she said "told you so." 

Now I'm in a much better relationship and happy all over again... And 34 now. She hasn't changed. Doom & gloom, everything will fall apart "wait and see"... Etc. 

Yes. She's right. It's a possibility. Just like me being hit by a bus tomorrow is a possibility. I choose to be happy despite her protestations and so too, I suspect, would your children. I just think of my experience as part of life, but each must draw his/her own conclusion... From individual experience.

Maybe you need a break from TAM, if it affecting you so strongly. Goodness knows I do every now and then.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Since 7 out 10 filings for divorce are done by women, wouldn't this answer your question?


----------



## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Why would I let my daughter marry someone when it is almost a foregone conclusion that she will not even LIKE that man 10 years down the road let alone love him? Am I going to let my boys marry someone who is VERY likely to leave them emotionally 10 years hence?


I tend to think much of this is generational, for a variety of reasons. I believe adults of my children's age (early 20's) place less value on marriage than my parents' (who have been married 51 years) generation.

Perhaps this is because my children are a product of divorce, and so, seeing my ex-wife and I divorced, accept it as a norm. I cannot say. 

But it is a trend I started to notice myself with people my own age, years ago. Many felt there was no compelling reason to get married, even if they intended to have children. Many of my friends my age or slightly younger felt having shorter-term "marriage contracts" where, after a set period of years, the parties can walk away, should be allowed.

In some respects, this is what we have today. In many states, especially "no fault" states, divorce law is pretty established in case law, if not actually codified in state law itself. While there are exceptions, for the most part you can know exactly what you are getting into by sitting down with an attorney before you get married and he can tell you how the Court will divide your assets upon divorce.

I am a Justice of the Peace in my State, with the ability to solemnize marriages. I half-heartedly joke with friends I should include a gift certificate for a free consultation with a divorce attorney as a wedding gift to each couple I marry. 

I was married 17 years, divorced 12 going on 13. There are aspects of being married I miss very much. I intend to marry my SO (assuming she's still around after all those PEA chemicals wear off.) I could read the horror stories on this forum and say to myself "screw that! I'm never getting married again". Truth be told, I did say that, after getting divorced the first time. Then over time I realized I missed being married. 

If my current SO and I get married, even if that marriage fails some years down the road, I would rather take the years of happiness I can get from being with her, than not marry her and continue through life missing those aspects of marriage I enjoy.

Rutgers University has done some interesting work on marriage over the years. Google "State Of Our Unions". Its now at the University of Virginia. National Marriage Project


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Satya said:


> I don't know why you say your (hypothetical?) daughters' disinterest in her man 10 years after marriage is a foregone conclusion.
> 
> It's an assumption.
> 
> Eta : other couples are not you or your children. Comparing with lives of others and what they have/do is a very slippery slope.


It's not a foregone conclusion. But neither is losing $1,000 when you bet it all on 26 on the roulette wheel. No way in hell I'm making that bet though. 

I do have a daughter. And I do have to warn her that...what...half of women will fall out of love? 2/3's? 3/4's? Almost all?

That's all I'm saying. A MASSIVE percentage of women will hate their husbands after 10 years. It is a MAJOR gamble they are taking. Yet when we hear the news, it's drinks all around congratulations.

I think maybe it's time to do a real study on the problem and start talking about it. Divorce statistics are only a part of the problem. 3 of those 4 marriages I cited earlier are still intact. And 100% loveless. I can't speak for my two buddies who are still married, but I'm miserable. So is my wife. And my kids are heading for the same fate. So are yours. Unless you think you have better odds of hitting 26 on that roulette wheel than everyone else. And if you think differently, write a bestseller. 

If you go by the odds. And the pre-marital information and discussions just aren't there. I just hope that 10 years from now we don't have as many men as we do today SHOCKED when they find out their life partner hasn't loved them for the past 5 years or more.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Constable Odo said:


> If my current SO and I get married, even if that marriage fails some years down the road, I would rather take the years of happiness I can get from being with her, than not marry her and continue through life missing those aspects of marriage I enjoy.


So the marriage certificate by itself will convey magical blessings of joy and happiness to you once you sign it?


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> So the marriage certificate by itself will convey magical blessings of joy and happiness to you once you sign it?


I think as long as you can think short term happiness, this philosophy can work. You are mostly guaranteed hot sex for the first year or two, that might be worth it alone for some? I personally would have preferred not to love, if I'm bound to lose. Living lonely will always trump living heartbroken & sad. If you don't give your heart, it can't be broken!!!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I couldn't make my point clear AGAIN. Time for me to give up on posting here.
> 
> It's not just the % of divorces we're talking about. It's the total % of women who check out that has me concerned. Why would I let my daughter marry someone when it is almost a foregone conclusion that she will not even LIKE that man 10 years down the road let alone love him? Am I going to let my boys marry someone who is VERY likely to leave them emotionally 10 years hence?
> 
> ...


I have no doubt that men fall out of love with their wives as often as women fall out of love. 

Men cheat at a rate slightly higher than women do. I think it pretty clear that a person who cheats is not truly in love with their spouse. That's a pretty good indication that men fall out of love just as often.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> It's not a foregone conclusion. But neither is losing $1,000 when you bet it all on 26 on the roulette wheel. No way in hell I'm making that bet though.
> 
> I do have a daughter. And I do have to warn her that...what...half of women will fall out of love? 2/3's? 3/4's? Almost all?
> 
> ...


You are blaming all marriage failure on women. It's just not the case.


----------



## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

A massive percentage of women will hate their husbands after 10 years? Your conclusion, based on a survey of you and a few neighbors.

Instead of advising your children to never marry, why not teach them the principles of a strong relationship? Get His Needs, Her Needs, Love Busters, and The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work, and discuss it with them.

Do you really want your grandchildren to grow up in a single parent household?

Your negativity reminds me of the lyrics in The Rose:

It's the heart afraid of breaking
That never learns to dance
It's the dream afraid of waking
That never takes the chance

It's the one who won't be taken
Who cannot seem to give
And the soul afraid of dying
That never learns to live.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Correlation does not imply causation.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Dogbert said:


> Since 7 out 10 filings for divorce are done by women, wouldn't this answer your question?


The only thing that stat says to me is that women are more decisive.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> Since 7 out 10 filings for divorce are done by women, wouldn't this answer your question?


Nope.. the person how files for divorce is not necessarily the one who left the marriage and/or fell out of love.

I think that men are as likely as women to fall out of love and/or leave the marriage.

Men are probably less likely to file even if they leave, cheat or otherwise abandon the marriage. Why? Because they are concerned that they will be taken to the cleaners in a divorce.

Women are more likely to be financially dependent and more likely to have the children when the husband does leave... few men move out and take the children with them.

So the woman is often in the position of having to file in order to get financial support during the divorce and until she can get financially situated.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> The only thing that stat says to me is that women are more decisive.


I am thankful for that, otherwise I'd probably still be with my cheating ex. After she shot me in the head, at least she had the courtesy of removing my body. lol


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

skype said:


> A massive percentage of women will hate their husbands after 10 years? Your conclusion, based on a survey of you and a few neighbors.


I've been on this and other forums for 5 years. Five long years after MY "shock". My sample size is a little bigger than 4 couples. Look at how many threads there are on this site alone.

My little circle of friends just happens to be, unfortunately, a pretty accurate representative sample.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> You are blaming all marriage failure on women.


Not even close. Men are to blame for women falling out of love with them. But the men don't know they are doing it. Hence the shock. Hence the need for dialogue.

I'm blaming (almost) all failures on THAT.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Not even close. Men are to blame for women falling out of love with them. But the men don't know they are doing it. Hence the shock. Hence the need for dialogue.
> 
> I'm blaming (almost) all failures on THAT.


I agree that there is need for dialogue. And the first thing that should be discussed is that most women are not WAWs and most men do not emotionally neglect their wives. Perspective is very important.

You are apparently under a mistaken assumption that most divorces are caused by oblivious men not realizing that they are ignoring their wives needs.

There used to be a divorce attorney who posted here on TAM. He said that about 75% of his female clients divorced because of their husband's infidelity and/or abuse. 

In these types of cases you will not find a man go around and tell everyone that their wife filed for divorce because they cheated or because they were either seriously emotionally abusing her or they were physically abusing her. These things usually happened behind closed doors. So few people know what really went on in the marriage.

So a guy (or woman) who cheated and/or abused their spouse can spread any kind of story they want.

My son's father tells a nice tail of how he has no idea why I left him.. he was just a good guy and I just left. He neglects to tell people that he is a serial cheated who cheated our entire marriage. He neglects to tell them of the physical abuse. 

Most women who leave a marriage are not what we call WAWs.


----------



## Canon in D (Aug 24, 2014)

*Re: Re: % of wives who fall out of love?*



Anon Pink said:


> The only thing that stat says to me is that women are more decisive.


And women are independent and can take care of themselves? I see many old and single women who are happy versus older men who sits in a bar looking miserable and lonely. 

I don't have the stats. Just a general statement based on what I'd seen.


----------



## Canon in D (Aug 24, 2014)

*Re: Re: % of wives who fall out of love?*



EleGirl said:


> Men are probably less likely to file even if they leave, cheat or otherwise abandon the marriage. Why? Because they are concerned that they will be taken to the cleaners in a divorce.


That's probably why my H hasn't filed when he feels frustrated. Lol.


----------



## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Men are probably less likely to file even if they leave, cheat or otherwise abandon the marriage. Why? Because they are concerned that they will be taken to the cleaners in a divorce.


Which, given the unbalanced state of affairs within most Family Court systems, is likely to be an accurate assessment on their part.

This is also why many men cheat, especially in no-fault states. They have nothing to lose by doing so, and can prolong the eventual financial ass-whipping.


----------



## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I've been on this and other forums for 5 years. Five long years after MY "shock". My sample size is a little bigger than 4 couples. Look at how many threads there are on this site alone.


This site is statistically significant of nothing, for a variety of reasons. 

#include <boring_lecture_on_statistics_and_self_selected_samples_here.h>

Clearly you have not healed your inner psyche from your "shock" five years ago. I would recommend less time on TAM and more time with an actual therapist to aid you in overcoming your bitterness..

Happiness is out there for you.


----------



## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

Dogbert said:


> So the marriage certificate by itself will convey magical blessings of joy and happiness to you once you sign it?


No my penis does this.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
If we had a young adult section this should be a sticky.

Love without compatibility typically results in intense misery. 

I didn't have a spreadsheet - or a written checklist but I knew what I needed in a life partner. 

- Smart
- Adventurous (adventurous folks tend to have two traits: curiousity and confidence) 
- Good sense of humor, funny and quick to laugh
- Responsible / good with money 
- Tough/resilient 
- Honest: Folks who are emotionally tough are more honest - they say what's what and let the chips fall where they may
- A decent amount of edge
- Solid work ethic / whether work was for money for running the family
- Cared about her appearance without being obsessive about it
- Liked sex 
- Attractive / fit


That's sort of 'their' list - independent of me. The rest of it was:
- Liked me 
- Brought out my best
- Liked having sex with me




SimplyAmorous said:


> This is what most fail to do...and it only takes one partner to fall down , start taking it all for granted.. that can ruin what could have been a beautiful thing..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Zouz (May 28, 2014)

There was no deal breakers at that time , because every single glitch was considered as big as a deal breaker by a spouse without even mentioning it .
Spouses used to care about each other ;there was even no MC / IC .

Now you have to drag the leg of a spouse to care ;the main issue is not Love ; it is compatibility , respect and commitment .


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> If we had a young adult section this should be a sticky.
> 
> *Love without compatibility typically results in intense misery.*


:iagree:


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This is what I worry about with our 5 sons... After reading at nauseam here how woman go after ALPHA studs.. (BAD BOYS).. their panties get all wet for them..especially when they are young & stupid... well.. our sons are the NICE GUYS.. the family type who would be honest & true.... they don't screw women for a pastime.. like the norm today.. they actually take relationships seriously.. 

My H even says our sons are not normal...(but he means that in a GOOD WAY).....

So yeah.. it concerns me what type of women they go after -due to girls having so much baggage when they have been HURT by A-holes who use them.. or girls who want to engage in causal sex.. our sons are not this type...but it's getting harder & harder to find women who aren't jumping on that bandwagon today...

So far I have been pleased with their choices... 2nd son has been with his GF since age 14, he will be graduating this year.. Whether this 1st love with last or not...the college yrs will tell the story... She comes from a great family.. and we would be most pleased if these 2 marry someday.. ..both are very mature, excellent grades.. they are model teens.. I have no concerns at all about this wonderful girl & our son...It will be a devastating break up if it doesn't work out.. but of course if he has a change of heart or her.. they need to explore other people.. I would be the 1st to tell them both to do this.. I care about this girl as much as I do my son.. she's wonderful ! 

I can see when the love languages are clearly off also... or if a relationship is unhealthy balanced.. I predicted it with 3rd son's 1st GF.. and it didn't last...which was for the best.. his GF now.. they are always laughing , joking, teasing... it's delightful to see..she brings out the best in him.. 

I/we enjoy seeing them explore young love.. we do all we can to lead them in a healthy direction .... getting through these years...which will hopefully prepare them for that special someone they want to spend the rest of their lives with..... it think it's very important, now even at a young age to be careful with their choices..


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> *SA,
> If we had a young adult section this should be a sticky.*


 I would most ENJOY a section like that.. I believe part of my staying on this forum is gaining knowledge about relationships...especially modern relationships ....to inform our children what to expect...so they will be fully equipped to KNOW what is good for them...and what could be a potential Train wreck.. 

As I do feel many things CAN be avoided.. well.. if we can get YOUNG PEOPLE TO LISTEN.. now that is the difficult part.. .. never forget a thread here asking that question.. most think people need to mind their own da** business.. and leave them alone, they don't want advice or to listen to their elders.......I think I was the only one on that thread that actually did care to listen to the older generation when I was younger.. I don't like regrets..(I think you know this.. ha ha... I can be HARD on myself !)... 



> *Love without compatibility typically results in intense misery.*


 I believe this very strongly. ..Yes. 



> *I didn't have a spreadsheet - or a written checklist but I knew what I needed in a life partner. *


 I practically DID.. I bombarded my H with love notes (always the writer).... asking him so many questions to pick his brain.. he answered them all ..(still have them saved 30+ yrs later)...



> *- Smart
> - Adventurous (adventurous folks tend to have two traits: curiousity and confidence)
> - Good sense of humor, funny and quick to laugh
> - Responsible / good with money
> ...


 Hey thank you for that list MEM !...I think all of our lists will have variations on them.... yours sounds pretty typical for a man...

Mine would sound a little odd to many people.. 

For example....** I didn't care about *SMART* -as in being a BRAIN, or college bound--but obviously someone with common sense & mentally sound /stable (HUGE!!)...

I think when people use the word *confidence,* it conjures up a variety of things.. (I actually think of co**y & conceited when I hear that word - even though I know this is NOT what you mean... I never had this on my list as most women DO...

Being confident enough to BE who you are -even if it makes you look bad....those things are important to ME.. Be REAL.. be humble.. be TRUE....that probably falls under *Emotional Honesty* / *Authenticity*... 

Some of mine.. So picky am I .. NO playboys.. A romantic at heart.. wants to marry someday, have kids.... live in the country.. *WORK ETHIC* huge !!! Keeps his word.. can talk deeply .. not a partier... doesn't drink (only social), if he smokes, he'd have to quit (yep deal breaker)...

Not a frivolous spender/ can live within means...I expect my lover to be my Best Friend.. (he would have to have a similar mindset here)...*FIT *to me is having good health & a slim waistline.. I never cared if one worked out.. means nothing to me.

*Sense of humor* is BIG....some peoples humor style ANNOYS me.. his I loved, part of our chemistry ... 

*SEX*.... had to be willing to wait... but bring on the touchy feely!! (maybe that sounds contradictory but really is wasn't ... he'd either respect it or I'd have to move on)...I didn't want pumped & dumped .... 

Secrets..I don't believe in them when you find that speical someone.. it should go deeper than anyone has ever been.. . No silent treatment BS either.... you mentioned * Responsible*...(in word, deed , on the job, all of it)....this earns *respect*... so yeah...without this... there is no foundation to build upon.. 

So that was my list !

... I feel it's imperative to KNOW our personal deal breakers.. so we can move on quickly and not waste another's time..


----------



## Canon in D (Aug 24, 2014)

*Re: Re: % of wives who fall out of love?*



SimplyAmorous said:


> This is what I worry about with our 5 sons... After reading at nauseam here how woman go after ALPHA studs.. (BAD BOYS).. their panties get all wet for them..especially when they are young & stupid... well.. our sons are the NICE GUYS.. the family type who would be honest & true.... they don't screw women for a pastime.. like the norm today.. they actually take relationships seriously..
> 
> My H even says our sons are not normal...(but he means that in a GOOD WAY).....
> 
> ...


Your post makes me smile. I knew there are good guys out there! 😜


----------



## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Satya said:


> If we at all desire marriage to take a more positive turn for longevity, then parents should actively teach children from young ages (in age appropriate ways) the values and lessons required for patience, communication, and boundaries.... All the things we discuss and suggest on TAM. However, the reality is that we (general) are imparting selfish values to our children, in the age of ADD and instant gratification.... Need I go on.
> 
> So really, the 50% divorce rate is not surprising to me, but there are actions that can be taken to influence which side of the 50 young people will more likely follow.


We are happy in our marriage (18years) but I'm not leaving it up to chance that our kids will be. We've had things to work thru and we show our kids that, the effort is well worth it. I believe in teaching our kids the values that make a good partner. If my teenage boy gets mouthy we talk about how that will affect his marriage if he gets that way with his wife. When my children fight with each other, we take the opportunity to teach them conflict resolution, compassion for others and how our actions affect others, taking responsibility for your own mistakes. We are raising adults not children.

As far as looking around here and saying most marriages are bad, would be like looking around the mechanics shop and saying most cars are broken down.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,

Sadly, confidence is often mis-used in today's culture. 

I tend to think of it as the absence of insecurity. A secure person has no need to:
1. Boast or brag (I'm allergic to ****iness, grates on me)
2. Try to make other people less than in order for them to feel more than
3. Compete in a toxic manner (see 2). A secure person tends to compete with themselves, they like to improve
4. They don't seek attention by way of being loud or aggressive, though they often get a lot of attention by being helpful to others.

One of the things M2 likes is my comfort level in social situations. It's easy for me to say: I don't know anything about that. 

And just as easy to refrain from correcting people directly when they have their facts wrong. 

As far as raw IQ goes - that's not so much my thing. But I liked that M2 loved to read and play word games. And was a skilled and quick witted conversationalist. 

About a year before M2 I dated a woman who did what I did, software consulting. She was very successful, very smart in an IQ test kind of way and had plenty of edge. 

BUT: 
She was generally tense - M2 is generally relaxed and playful
She wasn't very good at having fun - too serious 
AND
She wasn't very good in bed - the last bit might have been fixable but the first two were deep rooted traits. 

And FWIW - if I had a time machine - I'd go back to the start and redo some stuff with M2. Without meaning to, early on I triggered a LOT of insecurities in her regarding her perception that I'm 'much smarter'. Ugh!!!!!

In fact, she felt my whole family was much smarter than she is. 

But there's a lot of situations where her common sense and quickness create a great result. More so than I might get. 

So, if I could do it over, I'd be a kinder, gentler and less impatient 
version of my younger self. 

I'd point out that she reads body language effortlessly and instantaneously. Thats a priceless gift. One that took me decades to learn. 

As for your boys. They will make great husbands - just like their father. And hopefully they will, with some continued guidance from you, avoid poor spousal choices. 

And if you'll humor me for a moment: 

Many of the men who post here are quick to point out, over and over how Alpha they are in the real world. I smile when I read that. 

Most of them don't really grasp that you can succeed in the world despite people not liking or trusting you a whole lot. 

If people like/love, trust and respect you - that says it all. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> I would most ENJOY a section like that.. I believe part of my staying on this forum is gaining knowledge about relationships...especially modern relationships ....to inform our children what to expect...so they will be fully equipped to KNOW what is good for them...and what could be a potential Train wreck..
> 
> As I do feel many things CAN be avoided.. well.. if we can get YOUNG PEOPLE TO LISTEN.. now that is the difficult part.. .. never forget a thread here asking that question.. most think people need to mind their own da** business.. and leave them alone, they don't want advice or to listen to their elders.......I think I was the only one on that thread that actually did care to listen to the older generation when I was younger.. I don't like regrets..(I think you know this.. ha ha... I can be HARD on myself !)...
> 
> ...


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> 
> *Sadly, confidence is often mis-used in today's culture.
> 
> ...


 Sounds good...right !

More a quiet inner contentment / confidence...yes.. I don't think the majority of people will think of someone more introverted when the word "confidence" comes to mind. .. I guess that's my beef with it.. I associate it with Popularity and high status many times.. and I think it can be deceiving...

ALPHAS in the spotlight.... You look at them , maybe they just gave a speech or something & you think "radiant confidence".. but you wouldn't THINK THIS of the local Mechanic down the road, for instance, who is just a quiet guy, but dependable, reasonable.. does a superb job... I don't know.. I think too much!! 

Like this quote.. very true..












> *One of the things M2 likes is my comfort level in social situations. It's easy for me to say: I don't know anything about that.*


 It's honest, ya know.. a little humility is good !



> *And FWIW - if I had a time machine - I'd go back to the start and redo some stuff with M2. Without meaning to, early on I triggered a LOT of insecurities in her regarding her perception that I'm 'much smarter'. Ugh!!!!!
> 
> In fact, she felt my whole family was much smarter than she is.
> But there's a lot of situations where her common sense and quickness create a great result. More so than I might get.
> ...


 Interesting... we all have a little immaturity somewhere.... In my younger yrs I was a little too BLUNT....to the point I intimidated some of my friends...so I have been told... I learned some grace with my mouth since then...thankfully....

I just mentioned this to my Husband.. he told me I am still Blunt.. but he's laughing about it.. he chalks it up to being honest and says that's what's important.. yeah... he isn't too sensitive or he'd have to get rid of me, I guess.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Many of the men who post here are quick to point out, over and over how Alpha they are in the real world. I smile when I read that.
> 
> Most of them don't really grasp that you can succeed in the world despite people not liking or trusting you a whole lot.
> 
> If people like/love, trust and respect you - that says it all.


I spent most of yesterday out and about doing routine errands with a great guy. Within the first hour, four people - strangers - had struck up conversations with him. He commented that his children often tease him about the numbers of random people who talk to him whenever he's out in public. 

After a while, it occurred to me that he really didn't understand it. So, I asked if he knew why people seemed to want to talk to him. He had no idea. 

The truth is, he's an attractive man who seems to genuinely care about people and is willing to engage anyone at their level. When he says even a casual "hello" he makes eye contact, turns to face the person, and generally conveys a sense of attention and genuine interest. He's interested in people - from the elderly greeters at the big box store to the young ladies sitting at the bar - without ever giving any indication he's wondering what's in it for him. He's never impatient and doesn't brush people off. When you talk to him, you have his full attention. 

He seemed a little stunned and embarrassed at the assessment. But I'm not wrong. I read people well. He _engages_ people naturally and spectacularly.

He's not particularly "alpha" in any sense most people who are into that would recognize. But he's very successful in his field. Not only because people like, trust and respect him (which they do), but equally because he genuinely likes, trusts, and respects other people.

And, by the way, Mr. "Not-Alpha" seems to be doing just fine at engaging my sexual and romantic interest.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I couldn't make my point clear AGAIN. Time for me to give up on posting here.
> 
> It's not just the % of divorces we're talking about. It's the total % of women who check out that has me concerned. Why would I let my daughter marry someone when it is almost a foregone conclusion that she will not even LIKE that man 10 years down the road let alone love him? Am I going to let my boys marry someone who is VERY likely to leave them emotionally 10 years hence?
> 
> I.


That's part of the problem - people who go into marriage convinced that this is for life, so NOTHING they say or do will matter. They do not work on marriage, they take it for granted, their marriage and their spouse. 

It's another version of bait and switch. It worked when people had no other option, not so anymore.

You want your marriage to last - give it respect and time, and passion. Do not take it for granted. You admited that you had anger outburst in your marriage. Why are you surprised that she didn't want to take it anymore? Because you thought that it did nto matter how you treated her, that's why.

My husband has anger problems. After twenty years together I got to the point it was enough for me, and said D word. We are still together, and working on it. So far so good, but he needed that wake up call to understand, that all this - love, family, support - needs constant work, and respect. You want fire, you must keep adding wood to it, or you are going to be left with ashes.


----------



## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> That's part of the problem - people who go into marriage convinced that this is for life, so NOTHING they say or do will matter. They do not work on marriage, they take it for granted, their marriage and their spouse.
> 
> It's another version of bait and switch. It worked when people had no other option, not so anymore.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with you. But you gave your H another chance to prove himself, after a wake up call, A lot of peole don't. Plus you've been in the M for 20 years, you've put up with a lot. Some people don't, after the first sign of troul run away.

I can understand a W walking away after 20 years of the same, her wanting to see a life in their H, change, passioon, spark and not getting anything in return, that is perfectly understandable.

Some people don't have the patience or tolerance to fight for their M.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Regretf said:


> I agree 100% with you. But you gave your H another chance to prove himself, after a wake up call, A lot of peole don't. Plus you've been in the M for 20 years, you've put up with a lot. Some people don't, after the first sign of troul run away.
> 
> I can understand a W walking away after 20 years of the same, her wanting to see a life in their H, change, passioon, spark and not getting anything in return, that is perfectly understandable.
> 
> Some people don't have the patience or tolerance to fight for their M.


Yes, but the only way it was possible for me to stay and work on it is because he OWNED it, and he works on it. It can be rocky at times, but we are trying. Many of the people who walked away (both genders) have tried for years, but it was one-sided.
Macho is still bitter that she dared to leave him, he still does not think his yelling and anger were "that bad". That's the problem, he does not owe it. He tries at times, but he is not there yet.


----------



## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Yes, but the only way it was possible for me to stay and work on it is because he OWNED it, and he works on it. It can be rocky at times, but we are trying. Many of the people who walked away (both genders) have tried for years, but it was one-sided.
> Macho is still bitter that she dared to leave him, he still does not think his yelling and anger were "that bad". That's the problem, he does not owe it. He tries at times, but he is not there yet.


Agree as well, you have to own it, but ALSO there has to be enough love and willingness on the other side to let the SO change and own the mistakes, to have patience so the SO can try and do his/her best, if there is not enough love it doesn't matter what the SO does, the W of H will still walk away, maybe that is at the point of "I'm done" disconnected from the M or simply shut out. To some peolle that can take 10, 15, 20, 25 years, to some others like someone i know real well took less than 5 years,


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Regretf said:


> To some peolle that can take 10, 15, 20, 25 years, to some others like someone i know real well took less than 5 years,


The truth is I wish I did it sooner. Those who live sooner, in many cases recognize early enough the trouble brewing ahead. And we know that if there are problems at the beginning of marriage, they usually do not get better, the opposite. Now, with kids, mortgage and business together I'd better do my best to work on it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,

The bluntness thing. That' mostly a gift. 

And that quote is great. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> Sounds good...right !
> 
> More a quiet inner contentment / confidence...yes.. I don't think the majority of people will think of someone more introverted when the word "confidence" comes to mind. .. I guess that's my beef with it.. I associate it with Popularity and high status many times.. and I think it can be deceiving...
> 
> ...


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Lila said:


> Towards understanding the reasons for divorce - Publications - Australian Institute of Family Studies
> 
> *This study was conducted in 1997, so it's a bit dated, but it breaks down the reported reasons for divorce by gender very nicely*.


That is one exhaustive but very thorough break down !!

Sounds *Communication problems* is the #1 reason at *27.3 %*



> the most common reasons given by respondents for their marriage ending centred around the affective qualities of the relationship including communication problems (27 %) and incompatibility/drifting apart (21 %). Communication problems was the most commonly cited cause for both men (33 per cent) and women (23 %). Similar proportions of men and women felt that incompatibility/drifting apart was the major cause.


Over all...

Compatibility / drifting apart at *21 %*
Alcohol / drug abuse at *7.4% *
Physical violence at *5.5 %*
Financial problems *4.7%* 
Physical / mental health *4.7% *
Work/ Time .....*2.7%*
Children's problems *1.4% *
Spouses Personality ... *1.1%*
Family interference was only at *.6%* 



> More than half of women and almost half of men indicated that they had sought some form of help or advice about their marriage prior to divorce, mainly counselling. One-third believed that they had specifically prepared for life post-divorce.





> Studies of long-lasting marriages ... identify the following attributes of healthy couples:
> 
> A sense of respect and feeling appreciated; trust and fidelity; good sexual relations; good communication; shared values; cooperation and mutual support and enjoyment of shared time; a sense of spirituality; and the ability to be flexible when confronted with transitions and changes.
> 
> Researchers have also described similar characteristics of strong families...strong families promote each other's welfare and happiness, show appreciation for each other, have good communication skills and talk a lot to each other, spend time together, have a sense of spirituality, and use crises as an opportunity to grow.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

woundedwarrior said:


> Every other agreement in life has consequences, if you default. You quit paying your mortgage, you lose your house, quit paying your car payment, bye bye car etc. Marriage has no consequences, you become unhappy, for whatever piddly reason, just get divorced or separate indefinitely. There becomes no incentive to work on anything. I always thought that divorce shouldn't be granted unless you show evidence for at least 12 months of really trying to fix things. Court ordered counseling or mediators that directed you on what to do. Marriage has become a "feel good for a while" illusion and it's no wonder that living together rates are up, while marriages are down. I really don't believe that couples go into it with the mindset of forever, but just a "let's see how long we can go" philosophy.
> Coming from someone who believed in "til death do us part" twice, has made me negative.


I think it's like this because, if it doesn't work out, you can leave without owning your partner a life time of payments. 
Divorce is NOT easy, for men it disrupts your life FOREVER. This causes many instances where people stay married because the consequences are too great. I can see marriage in the future being totally wiped out and replaced with relationships either partner can leave when they want to.


----------



## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> I think it's like this because, if it doesn't work out, you can leave without owning your partner a life time of payments.
> Divorce is NOT easy, for men it disrupts your life FOREVER. This causes many instances where people stay married because the consequences are too great. I can see marriage in the future being totally wiped out and replaced with relationships either partner can leave when they want to.


It already is. More people are opting to live together, instead of getting married. Saying " I do" used to mean something, now it should just be changed to "till divorce do we part" or "misery do we stay". It's really quite sad.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

woundedwarrior said:


> It already is. More people are opting to live together, instead of getting married. Saying " I do" used to mean something, now it should just be changed to "till divorce do we part" or "misery do we stay". It's really quite sad.


It doesn not mean that generations before us were happier, they simply did not have choices. 

The upside to living in divorce approved area is that if you really want to stay married you have to work on it, not just assume this is it, and your actions do not matter anymore.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sometimes, having some roadblocks is good and too many choices is bad. I know that won't be read in the context meant by some. I guess you'd have to think about it to understand. I don't mean to go backward to poor treatment of women. I think limiting marriages and increasing education at the front end, plus setting standards of expected conduct would bring about longer lasting marriages than having voluntary self-education and just a blood test. 

It would also stop many marriages from ever taking place. I think that's a very good side-effect.

Folks had different attitudes about marriage, whether they had choices or not. Why? Were any of those ideas worth instilling? Did we chuck out all the good with the bad just to start over? Things need to change. We need to quit making lawyers rich and parents poor. We need to quit giving our money to psychologists to repair us after a damaging marriage, and give it to them upfront to help us be better spouses. Well, those are my thoughts. How do we do that? Seems impossible.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> We need to quit giving our money to psychologists to repair us after a damaging marriage, and give it to them upfront to help us be better spouses. Well, those are my thoughts. How do we do that? Seems impossible.


You are talking about improving humanity. Good luck with that project.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> You are talking about improving humanity. Good luck with that project.


Maybe that wasn't such a daunting task back then, whenever "then" was? Maybe that's because there were groups of folks who had a common goal, didn't have all the opportunities and had to rely more on each other? Maybe it wasn't so easy to be an "island".

Isn't that the end goal, though? To leave it all better than when we came? It's not ours. It's everyone's. We are just borrowing until we are gone. Did we forget the greater good as we got so interested in "improving" everything? Oh well, sounds preachy. I'm done.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> *We *need to quit making lawyers rich and parents poor. *We *need to quit giving our money to psychologists to repair us after a damaging marriage, and give it to them upfront to help us be better spouses. Well, those are my thoughts. How do *we *do that? Seems impossible.


There is no "we". *I* need to do that. *You* need to do that. There is no changing "we". But if a person does not have the will, they won't do it. You see how hard people on this board fight to defend their completely unhealthy dysfunction. It really is no surprise.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> There is no "we". *I* need to do that. *You* need to do that. There is no changing "we". But if a person does not have the will, they won't do it. You see how hard people on this board fight to defend their completely unhealthy dysfunction. It really is no surprise.


I hear you. We can't change anyone. We each have to attempt to change ourselves. I get the feeling you read control in my statement and you don't like that one bit. I don't like being controlled either, and I have been. I think you miss my point, though. I think that there needs to be change which affects us all. There are too many mistakes. It all needs changed and we have to all be a part of it, or it would feel like control.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I hear you. We can't change anyone. We each have to attempt to change ourselves. I get the feeling you read control in my statement and you don't like that one bit. I don't like being controlled either, and I have been. I think you miss my point, though. I think that there needs to be change which affects us all. There are too many mistakes. It all needs changed and we have to all be a part of it, or it would feel like control.


I have no great opinion on control. What I am not seeing is what change you are advocating, by whom and how it would be achieved. I don't see mistakes as something that are avoidable but part of the human condition. It is people's job to take mistakes, learn from them and grow to be better people. And on that note, if there is one thing I would, but I don't think likely, is the way we tend to raise our kids. I would like kids to be free to make mistakes, and learn from them. I would like to see children acquainted with the natural consequences aimed at learning and less acquainted with punishment as a form of behavior management. Teach them how to be good, smart people when they are 2-17 so that when they are doing the dating, courting thing they have a better chance of making decent choices.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have no great opinion on control. What I am not seeing is what change you are advocating, by whom and how it would be achieved. I don't see mistakes as something that are avoidable but part of the human condition. It is people's job to take mistakes, learn from them and grow to be better people. And on that note, if there is one thing I would, but I don't think likely, is the way we tend to raise our kids. I would like kids to be free to make mistakes, and learn from them. I would like to see children acquainted with the natural consequences aimed at learning and less acquainted with punishment as a form of behavior management. Teach them how to be good, smart people when they are 2-17 so that when they are doing the dating, courting thing they have a better chance of making decent choices.


Well I'm no expert, so I won't offer any advice. I will say, if the parents have not learned, the children will continue the same pattern of mistakes. If mistakes were a part of life and all of us accepted that, would there be a lower percentage of divorces or would it remain the same? Can anyone count on folks to change their pattern and teach their children well, or does it take a concerted effort over years with applicable laws to really solidify changes?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Well I'm no expert, so I won't offer any advice. I will say, if the parents have not learned, the children will continue the same pattern of mistakes.


Agreed.


> If mistakes were a part of life and all of us accepted that, would there be a lower percentage of divorces or would it remain the same?


Is that the ultimate end goal? Lower divorce rates? That does not strike me as a useful goal.



> Can anyone count on folks to change their pattern and teach their children well, or does it take a concerted effort over years with applicable laws to really solidify changes?


You cannot change minds with laws. Who is going to write these laws? And what will they say? And what is the value to changing behavior due to fear of legal consequence? Not much in my book.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Is that the ultimate end goal? Lower divorce rates? That does not strike me as a useful goal.
> 
> ...


Lowered divorce rates is an admirable goal when two are matched and happy. Do you think there is a better sign of two being happy when divorces are so easily obtained? 

You cannot change minds with laws. All one can make laws for is behavior. 

Interesting thoughts NS. Thank you.


----------



## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> MachoMcCoy said:
> 
> 
> > Not even close. Men are to blame for women falling out of love with them. But the men don't know they are doing it. Hence the shock. Hence the need for dialogue.
> ...


Yup. Ex went ard saying I abused him. 

Women filed for a reason. women has less propensity to break a family.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Not even close. Men are to blame for women falling out of love with them. But the men don't know they are doing it. Hence the shock. Hence the need for dialogue.
> 
> I'm blaming (almost) all failures on THAT.


Your wife got sick of a man who was arrogant and oblivious to other people.

Now you come on here yelling at everyone that you are the only one who knows best dismiss everyone who does not agree with you.

And you say you have learned.


----------



## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

As a guy dating in my 40s and married to a woman for 22 years lets just say I'm jaded on marriage.

The quality of people to date because of their accumulated baggage as they get older makes it no suprise that second marriages fail even more.

I have thrown back so many women. Lot of cheaters, huge debt, omg the list is endless. I'd expect most people by the time they hit 40 to have cleaned up their childish crap.

Never mind the large number of gold diggers. 

Yes, marriage really is like going to Vegas. I think I'm never going to remarry. Way too much to lose.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jdawg2015 said:


> As a guy dating in my 40s and married to a woman for 22 years lets just say I'm jaded on marriage.
> 
> The quality of people to date because of their accumulated baggage as they get older makes it no suprise that second marriages fail even more.
> 
> ...


Someone unfit for marriage will typically marry a few times. 

The pool of divorcees available fir dating is therefore typically less inspiring than that of those that have never been married (I assume this is the same for women as much as for men).


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Au contraire, going by my circle of female friends, the few that never married have more red flags than a May 1 Red Parade...


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

john117 said:


> Au contraire, going by my circle of female friends, the few that never married have more red flags than a May 1 Red Parade...


Perhaps. I am a few years younger, John, and my social group is younger again. Most of the women I meet are in or still to reach their viable marriable years.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

When falling in love, one is too infatuated to remember that love is a very dynamic emotion that changes without thought when unchallenged. It's when challenged with reality do the other static emotions that have hopefully grown in the relationship play their importance. Without integrity, trust, humility, compassion, kindness, open commitment to understanding, spiritual mindfulness, and other positive influences that feed a core love that becomes fickle when disagreements come. Often left we are less than prepared and fall back to self... what I need, what I want, what I deserve... too many minds that see "I" instead of we.

Nobody I have ever met married thinking "I'm going to end this when the road gets bumpy", but many I've seen end, end with just that. Not because of physical abuse, not end because of substance abuse, not ending because of serious detriment that with proper help a proper path could be found... such dedication seems rare today especially with children needing to see that we do not throw another away when life gets hard, or sadly selfish.

I see the majority around me end with "he/she just didn't do it for me anymore" so I found it in someone else... for awhile. 

And then it moves to the next, and after that second divorce to a series of significant others in and out and in and out and in and out. I have one work acquaintance on their 5th marriage in 16 years, another having lived with 4 different LTR's or 2-4 years of fussing and fighting because they forgot the path to the core.

Disposable love... not because it was outgrown, but because it was never grown into, matters not the gender.


----------



## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Yup, a woman of average or better looks and never married by mid 30s?
Huge red flag to be wary of...




john117 said:


> Au contraire, going by my circle of female friends, the few that never married have more red flags than a May 1 Red Parade...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I wish that the bitter boy, women are evil threads could be kept to a single sub-forum where they are more easily avoided.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wish that the bitter boy, women are evil threads could be kept to a single sub-forum where they are more easily avoided.


I am not suggesting that women have it easier, I just happen not to date men. The situation is the same, I am sure. Neither sex are given an easy time on here.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

This is an interesting thread. In my experience and this is from watching people around me as much as personal experience, I have found that the real challenge in a relationship/marriage is not only understanding and capitalising on each others strengths, but more importantly, drawing out and dealing with each others weaknesses.

When a couple first meet, they are keen to put their best foot forward and in so doing, start trying to showcase what they perceive to be their positives and strengths. In many cases they get to see the real strengths of each other only after some time and often in a crisis. So that is whammy number one - not getting to see the real strengths until later. Some get to divorce without ever getting a chance to see the strengths in their partners and many do see their perceived strengths in the early years and think that these are their real and only strengths. As an example, take the difference between honour and integrity - honour is doing the right thing and integrity is basically doing what you say you will do (to simplify). Sometimes you see the "honour" up front (until there is a lapse, e.g. cheating) but you don't see the integrity until a period of time has passed.

Next there is the dealing with the weaknesses and again there are perceived weaknesses and real weaknesses (which, again, you may not see until some time has passed). Here, they need to not only identify the weaknesses, but also decide whether they are deal breakers and if not, what to do to help improve the situation (and I mean, both parties). I discovered many of my wife's weaknesses over time (as she did many of mine). It took us even longer to learn how to deal with them and improve them - perseverance was the key and many a time, we both questioned whether it was worth it. 

However, we were blessed with "trouble" (I know, an odd thing to say) which brought out our inner strengths in coping and helping each other, and that made it worth it. But it takes a lot of work and some luck - many modern marriages do not put in the work and some may not get the breaks. Hence the high percentage of failures.

So perhaps this thread should be titled "% of wives/husbands who do not put the work in" vs "% of wives/husbands who just had bad luck and never got to shine".

OK I'll step off my soapbox now!


----------



## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

I guess for me it is 100%...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> I am not suggesting that women have it easier, I just happen not to date men. The situation is the same, I am sure. Neither sex are given an easy time on here.


Nah, that's not really the point. I think the gender wars are full on dumb, that is no secret. There are themes that repeat over and over and over. This post is about the *%* of women who "fall" out of love. It is such a ridiculous simplification of a complicated life. I simply don't accept, male or female, that one day the person you (rhetorical) once chose as your life long mate woke up as the many headed hydra. 

I have a friend, happens to be a male, that thinks this is what happened to his wife. No cheating but she turned into an insecure super freak during the divorce. Dude, I love you man, but she was always super insecure. Remember, I knew you when you were a "happy couple". If you can't see how you busted her down, then you are missing a lot of the plot. The only reason you can't bust your new wife down that way is that she is a red hot, fire breathing steam engine that will kick your sorry ass if you try it. Which you do. (Speaking as if telling a story to my darling, dopey-headed friend.)

What percent of women will.... do anything?? Why is this an interesting question?


----------



## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

woundedwarrior said:


> I am thankful for that, otherwise I'd probably still be with my cheating ex. After she shot me in the head, at least she had the courtesy of removing my body. lol



More thankful every day that my STBXW got me out of a loveless, sexless marriage.


----------



## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

jdawg2015 said:


> Yup, a woman of average or better looks and never married by mid 30s?
> Huge red flag to be wary of...



I missed that flag big time and a few others too...


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

This thread is a year old. Yet the bitterness of the OP continues. Instead of moving on to find some happiness, he chooses to stay put and project his bitterness out to all women.

(many of his posts CAN help some of the men out there however...bitter or not)


----------

