# Romantic Getaway Disappointment...



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Long story short, I had the sex talk with my wife a few weeks back. I'm looking for her to initiate more often and just spice it up in general. But I'm also at my wits end because nothing ever seems to work, and it's as if everything I ask for is just completely ignored. She said we hadn't had a romantic getaway in years, and that was a big reason for our lack of intimacy. Knowing that our past romantic getaways never resulted in intimacy, I agreed, but was skeptical. 

I booked a nice private resort. Fireplace in the room. I packed some sex toys I bought, but she never was really into them, so I also asked her if she was bringing lingerie. I also asked her how many times she thought we would have sex, and her response was "a handful". I got the feeling this trip wasn't going to meet my expectations, but tried to stay positive. I told her my fantasy would be going to the hotel and not leaving the room. 

Before we left, she said she was going to wait until we got there to shower. So we arrived and got to the room. I lit the fireplace, and she asked if I wanted to go exploring. She didn't shower, so I kind of figured it might be better to wait. I wasn't really looking for a quickie, and kind of expected to go down on her so we could both enjoy it. So we hiked, had dinner, drank a bit, then came back to the room and went to sleep. Next morning, we had breakfast and then she wanted to explore some more. We explored, and mid afternoon got back to the room. She pointed out that we hadn't had sex, but suggested that I'd probably make comments about the lack of sex. She decided to shower and we had sex afterwards. After about 20m, she started complaining that she was dry and was hinting I should finish. So I did. And that was it. 

I didn't want to ruin her time, so every time she asked if I was having fun, I said yes. When we got home, I pointed out that I was a bit dissapointed. Actually, I basically completely withdrew. After we talked a bit, she goes back to the old "having sex once a week is average". 

So I didn't bring up sex on the trip. Maybe I was setting her up for failure. I could've predicted exactly how this would turn out, but didn't do anything to change it. Maybe as soon as we got there, I should've demanded her get into the shower and put on lingerie. Damn that sounds sexy.  

So after getting back home, I thought about it all. I feel like I adequately explained what I'd like to do on the trip, but she did nothing to make it happened and maybe did some things to avoid it. So, I'm wondering. Was it fair for me to do that? Waiting for her to either initiate, make some sexy talk, put on lingerie; or since its me who wants it, was the onus on me to initiate. Even though it's her initiation I'm looking for?

Ever have your spouse ask you to clean your dogs ass? Not the most fun thing to do, but you have to do it, right? I get a similar response when I ask my wife for sex, without the "need" to have to do it. TBH, I'm sick of asking.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

She lied . . . twice. Next romantic getaway won't include her.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I completely understand your disappointment and frustration. I'm very sorry.


----------



## USD2018 (Apr 4, 2018)

Hmmm, that sucks. You sure you aren't giving out a vibe of high expectation? She might have performance anxiety if she interprets your requests the wrong way. Whereas, if she feels like she isn't under the spotlight too much maybe it would come to her more naturally. That's a tough one.


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

Sounds all too familiar in so many ways with me and how I handled things. You go into these situations thinking you have he perfect setup and it's all just going to fall into place but it doesn't. Deep down you know it won't and you are hoping that it by falling apart, she will see how sad or angry you are and change. You would be happier if you had sex no times than just the one time so she can get the point. 

So many trips I took with my wife and brought 'stuff' for like 5-7 rounds and was lucky to get one and would just end up feeling sorry for myself. I realized that even when I did speak up for myself and did what she said in taking charge, I would still get shut down my our issue was more extreme and I learned that too late as we are headed for a finalized divorce in 3 months and her clinging on to the hope that her soulmate (affair partner over the last year) will leave his wife eventually.

What I'm saying is that don't let this get to my situation, don't be Mr. Nice Guy, create covert contracts, etc. Speak up for what you want, try and if you get rejected try again and then try again. You will find out eventually if you are just being a sad sack or if she really just isn't in to it. Also take the initiative to learn her love language and do things that speak to hers. Do stuff for her without expecting things in return but when you want something, ask for it!


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

USD2018 said:


> Hmmm, that sucks. You sure you aren't giving out a vibe of high expectation? She might have performance anxiety if she interprets your requests the wrong way. Whereas, if she feels like she isn't under the spotlight too much maybe it would come to her more naturally. That's a tough one.


Don't think I put out that vibe. My bigger concern is that I didn't reiterate my expectations. But, they are for her to initiate, or at least act into it. Right, fantasizing about my wife pretending to like sex with me. :crying:


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> Don't think I put out that vibe. My bigger concern is that I didn't reiterate my expectations. But, they are for her to initiate, or at least act into it. Right, fantasizing about my wife pretending to like sex with me. :crying:


Ok, learning from my failures, it's one thing for your wife to be attracted to you and to want sex but to be honest, in these cases, you have to put aside wanting her to initiate, seriously. You have to be open about it, take a few rejections, scrape them off and then keep trying. One of two things will happen if you follow this advice;

- You will have more sex and it will start something in motion that will cause her to want to have more sex, be attracted to you and be more initiative herself
- You will not have more sex but you tried and you won't take the Mr. Nice Guy route like I and so many others have and maybe you find out she is just low drive but you can't know that until you be a MAN about it, be what I didn't.

If you just let it lay, you are going to get resentful and pull away in other ways. She is then going to pull away thinking you no longer are attracted or want intimacy from her and then it starts an awful cycle and you find text message from her to another guy. That's the worst case scenario but that is how these things start, is with resentment.

One big difference between you and i thought is that you say you are getting it once every week? Sheesh, I was on average, getting it once every 2.5 months I would say.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> snip// I didn't reiterate my expectations. But, they are for her to initiate, or at least act into it. Right, fantasizing about my wife pretending to like sex with me. :crying:


This is getting way too close to home. My favorite fantasy is that my wife is interested in sex at all. it's not going to be a good weekend.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

stillfightingforus said:


> Ok, learning from my failures, it's one thing for your wife to be attracted to you and to want sex but to be honest, in these cases, you have to put aside wanting her to initiate, seriously. You have to be open about it, take a few rejections, scrape them off and then keep trying. One of two things will happen if you follow this advice;
> 
> - You will have more sex and it will start something in motion that will cause her to want to have more sex, be attracted to you and be more initiative herself
> - You will not have more sex but you tried and you won't take the Mr. Nice Guy route like I and so many others have and maybe you find out she is just low drive but you can't know that until you be a MAN about it, be what I didn't.
> ...


I get it about once every two weeks. That's with the 3 or 4 or 5 rainchecks I'll get in the meantime. If I stopped asking, I'd stop getting. But the turn downs I get when I ask are just too painful/stressful. And I feel bad because it's only sex, right. Not important to her.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

You made a covert contact with your wife. "If I take you on a romantic getaway, then you'll initiate sex."

Except now you feel like Stormy when the other party fails to sign on the dotted line. 

You have to work within your spouse's abilities. If you can have decent sex with her but you have to initiate, is that such a high price of admission? Can you really not find a happy compromise here? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> I get it about once every two weeks. That's with the 3 or 4 or 5 rainchecks I'll get in the meantime. If I stopped asking, I'd stop getting. But the turn downs I get when I ask are just too painful/stressful. And I feel bad because it's only sex, right. Not important to her.


I see you have about 250 posts, have you been on here for similar questions? I ask because it's not too late to at least try and solve this and see what you guys are made of. Stuff I wish I knew before the affair. 

Books For You
https://www.drglover.com/no-more-mr-nice-guy/the-book.html
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11053495-the-married-man-sex-life-primer-2011

Books For The Both Of You
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/th...MIwNSshpCm2gIVBolpCh3WAQUPEAYYASABEgJpCPD_BwE
His Needs Her Needs

Article that I have seen pasted that would be nice to talk to your wife about
https://forgivenwife.com/sexless-marriage-loveless-marriage/


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

Cletus said:


> You made a covert contact with your wife. "If I take you on a romantic getaway, then you'll initiate sex."
> 
> Except now you feel like Stormy when the other party fails to sign on the dotted line.
> 
> ...


Bingo! I get the feeling that it may be a hit to your pride or your self-worth that she doesn't initiate it but get over, that, seriously. If you love your wife and you want to make this work. Forget that BS, it isn't going to make you less of a man that she doesn't drop her panties at the site of you or no matter what she promises, it's up to you to get this going. At least to then see where it goes from there!


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> Maybe as soon as we got there, I should've demanded her get into the shower and put on lingerie. Damn that sounds sexy.


Actually, for many women (I'd say most), that IS sexy.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Actually, for many women (I'd say most), that IS sexy.



Lol. Not her. I tried the forceful approach. Wasn't for me. Ddin't work for her.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Not a covert contract. She’s the one who said the lack of getaways was the problem. He explicitly asked how many times, not covert. She lied. 

Then he lied when he told her he was having fun to spare her feelings. You’ll never fix anything if you’re not willing to make her uncomfortable with your discomfort. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Initiating every time doesn't sound like a high price. To understand this you need to read the low drive husband threads. When women have to initiate they feel that their partner doesn't find them attractive. I believe the term used on this thread was like asking her to clean the dogs butt. On top of that it is not asking once per sexual encounter it is 3-5 rain checks. 3 to 5 being treated like a dirty canine anus. Followed up by Hurry up and get done. What would a happy compromise look like here?


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

stillfightingforus said:


> Books For You
> https://www.drglover.com/no-more-mr-nice-guy/the-book.html
> https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11053495-the-married-man-sex-life-primer-2011
> [/url]


Go buy these books and read them right now... if this is important to you that is.

I learnt a few things since reading those books..
1) you need to be more attractive and LESS unattractive. Its unattractive to her that you scheduled this trip just to get crazy bedroom sex and spent the weekend complaining about not getting it
2) the man needs to initiate sex to get sex (there are a few lucky men out there, but dont expect your wife to want it)
3) stop being nice and creating contracts "ill book this hotel and you'll initiate sex"

Right now, she clearly is not desiring you.. those books will change that a bit


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> Lol. Not her. I tried the forceful approach. Wasn't for me. Ddin't work for her.


In my opinion you have two problems,one is you are too timid and the other is you are inclined to be passive aggressive.
These are your problems,your wife has her own.
In your shoes I would have told my wife straight out that I wanted a weekend of fun and sex,if she said she wasn’t up for it I wouldn’t have booked the trip.
Secondly when she asked you were you having a good time you didn’t want to hurt her feelings so you kept reiterating that you were.WHY?
She may have no problem in hurting your feelings or she may have believed you but either way your passivity is causing serious problems and you need to acknowledge this.
Waiting until you were at home and then admitting you were disappointed and then sulking or as you call it “withdrawing” is about as passive aggressive as can be.The silent treatment doesn’t work.
There are men (and women) on this forum who have gone years without sex and you are on your way to joining them.This may sound oversimplified but sex is not such a big deal and if her not initiating is going to stop you having some then you need to look into yourself and ask do you want to stay in this marriage or not.
Maybe you want to separate,I don’t know.But your marriage needs someone to take charge and I don’t think it’s going to be your wife.


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

i think you need to sit her down and basically tell her that you were disappointed in that gateway and in tell her that you have no intention of doing it again.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Steve2.0 said:


> Go buy these books and read them right now... if this is important to you that is.
> 
> I learnt a few things since reading those books..
> 1) you need to be more attractive and LESS unattractive. Its unattractive to her that you scheduled this trip just to get crazy bedroom sex and spent the weekend complaining about not getting it
> ...


I read those books when I first signed up for TAM. Applied as much as I could. Basically got to the point where it was time for me to leave. Wasn't willing to do that.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> I read those books when I first signed up for TAM. Applied as much as I could. Basically got to the point where it was time for me to leave. Wasn't willing to do that.




Well there you go. We all make our choices. And we all have to live with them. You choose a low sex marriage. Regardless of your words, your actions speak loud and clear. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Well there you go. We all make our choices. And we all have to live with them. You choose a low sex marriage. Regardless of your words, your actions speak loud and clear.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 @lessthennone I know where you are coming from, you really sound like me. I read those books as well and they are just starting to sink in now as my marriage ends. You have read them but your (text based) demeanor shows how upset, resentful and self-pitied you are ... again, like ME. Don't take it the wrong way. Take it as the answers are there and the solutions can still be had until you go full force into them. If your marriage means a lot to you, you will take the rejection and wipe it off and try again. Give this a few good months and don't let setbacks get to you. Give it all you got, it's worth the chance at satisfaction and even more so, worth preventing what has happened to so many of us when you find out your wife really wants sex but we just didn't know how to turn on the engine. That hits the pride but F pride, do what's right and what you need to do!


----------



## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

This entire thread would be triggering if not for the fact that I'm out of that Hell now. I'm sorry for you brother. Been there, done that, never again.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

So very familiar.

My wife talks about wanting sex...in the future. We plan romantic trips (which we both enjoy, I like romance too), and she hits at lots of passionate sex. It does't happen. She thinks she wants sex, but she really doesn't. Not in our house, not in an ancient palace in Venice, not on a south pacific island, not in a luxury high-rise hotel in Shanghai, or a thatched hut in the Yucatan. Not during an exciting trip to the mountains, not on a quiet relaxing vacation in a riverside lodge. 

There is always a reason each time. She always talks about (promises?) sex in the future. I don't think she is lying, I think that she honestly believes that she will want sex in the future - just when the future arrives she finds that she doesn't. It will never change. 

OP - I suspect your situation will never change either. I recommend that you either leave, or accept things as they are - which I have done. (the choice is yours). 

When my wife hints / suggests / promises sex in the future, I just say "that would be nice", but I fully understand that it doesn't mean anything. I just got back from a business trip where she had been strongly hinting she wanted an evening of intimacy today. We re-watched something on TV. I didn't bring it up - why make her fabricate some excuse when the reality is that when it came down to it, she just didn't want it. 

Some people just do not want much sex. The may think that they *should* want it, but they don't. 

Accept reality and choose based on that reality.


----------



## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

[less
I lit the fireplace, and she asked if I wanted to go exploring.[/b]

Right there you should have said after you shower and we have a good make-out and sex session, that sounds like a good idea.
From what I read, some women don't like sex all that much and some women like sex but it kills them to signal they like sex. /they want to be pursued. Men fear rejection, women fer rejection and a man's apathy more in most cases.

I am not suggesting going "cave man" on her, dragging her back to your cave and having your way with her.

Maybe she would have said no to the sex first. but you have shown her what she an get way with and how little it takes for you to back off.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Lessthennone, I do not know what you are expecting. Your expectations are too high, you already knew the outcome. It's as the adage says, 'repeating the same things to get a different outcome' never works. 
She agreed to the trip, she agreed to the wild weekend, then you should have held her to it. This is what separates the men from the boys. She will not respect you for not following through. 

Your desperation shines through here also your instrumentality which is an absolute passion killer. I cringed when I read what you wrote. You should have had a shower, got into bed and said 'are you joining me?" If she said not, then booked a separate room and told her that all bets were off and partied the nights away with others in the hotel, ignoring her. Cruel maybe no more cruel that what she was doing, though you let it pan out that way tbh. Take back your cajones. 

Many women (very unlike men) have responsive rather than spontaneous desire. As i get older my libido needs a kick start, I may not really want sex but if my husband kisses me or touches me tenderly in a certain way, then the engine warms up and I am beginning to think, hmm, this is a good idea. Your functionalist (male) approach to sex may well be a turn off to your wife. Just make moves on her and go from there. Read about responsive versus spontaneous desire.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Guys, there are several things going on with OP's marriage/wife and others in similar situations. 

First, HD and LD together... overall just a bad deal...

Some women are not going to initiate, which sucks and they should work on that. 

But here is the other side of that, STOP ASKING FOR SEX. 

I know everyone will poo poo this, especially the LD girls. 

With GF, it is just assumed that we are going to have sex in the morning and at night, and more if we have time during the day. 

I just take her by the hand and led her to the bed room and we get started. I just don't think either party in a relationship should have to "ASK" for sex, lets just assume it is going to happen. 

Yeah, she could say no, once, twice hit the road. That is just not going to happen. 

Seems like a lot of you guys just run around like puppies BEGGING for sex... Forget about it...

It is been this way with every woman I have been with...


----------



## Um Excuse Me (Feb 3, 2018)

aine said:


> Lessthennone, I do not know what you are expecting. Your expectations are too high, you already knew the outcome. It's as the adage says, 'repeating the same things to get a different outcome' never works.
> She agreed to the trip, she agreed to the wild weekend, then you should have held her to it. This is what separates the men from the boys. She will not respect you for not following through.
> 
> Your desperation shines through here also your instrumentality which is an absolute passion killer. I cringed when I read what you wrote. You should have had a shower, got into bed and said 'are you joining me?" If she said not, then booked a separate room and told her that all bets were off and partied the nights away with others in the hotel, ignoring her. Cruel maybe no more cruel that what she was doing, though you let it pan out that way tbh. Take back your cajones.
> ...


This is absolutely beautifully written and 100% true. Awesome post, thank you!!:yay:


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I've been married 22 1/2 years and I don't know if I have ever "asked for sex."

I can't remember my wife ever asking for sex. 

But yet we've had a marital sex life for over 22 years. 

One of my best friends used to ask for sex from his ex wife. In their 10 + year marriage they had sex a couple handful of times and were completely sexless the last several years of their marriage before he finally grew some balls and left. 


Since she seems to agree in principle to have a marital sex life and since you haven't said anything about her outright telling you she didn't want to have sex with you or that she had any kind of beef against sex with you, I agree with the others that have said you need to learn more about the difference between spontaneous desire (most men) and responsive desire (most women). 

As I said above, I don't think either I nor my wife have ever 'asked for sex' in 22 years. ,,,,,,,, one or the other of us just starts doing it. 

Back before kids and menopause and all that, my wife was basically a porn star in bed. We even spent about 10 years in the swinging lifestyle and have numerous 3somes, couple/couple swaps, orgies, group sex, sex clubs, you name it. 

But if I was filling up the car with gas while we were on our way to get groceries and then take the kids to soccer practice and I asked her if we could have sex that day - she would've rolled her eyes and told me to run in a grab a carton of milk while we were there. 

In a long term relationship/marriage, you simply can't go from changing the oil in the lawn mower to swinging from the chandeliers in throes of hot passionate monkey sex in the blink of an eye. That may happen in the initial stages of a brand new relationship, but after years of marriage it takes more than that to boot up the sexual response. 

cont.......


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

cont......




Long term marital sexuality is kind of like the old hot water tanks. There needs to be a constant pilot light going to keep the tank heated throughout the day; and then when you actually used a batch of hot water, the tank has to be refilled and the burners have to fire back up to warm the tank up again. 

Marital sex is the same way. You can't let the pilot light go out. You can't get all bogged down with kids and bills and house repairs and yard work and then expect fireworks the moment you think you want some wild monkey sex. 

There has to be a level of ongoing flirtation and banter and affection and then a bona fide seduction and foreplay before there is enough arousal and stimulation to actually have a sexual encounter. 

That doesn't come from simply asking to have sex while you are unclogging the toilet. 


cont........


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I would agree that his expectations are likely to high.

However, she is clearly moving the goalposts on him.

The question becomes how long he wants to keep trying to participate.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

cont....

Now for a man, that means that you have to have a certain amount of assertiveness and initiative and dominance if you want to maintain some semblance of a sex life after years of marriage. 

Generally speaking, women don't walk around in a state of arousal and horniness most of the time. They may get peaks and valleys of their libidos at different points of their cycles, but generally speaking, they are not in a state of sexual arousal at any given time like men are. 

Women have to be aroused. Their libidos have to be woken up, given some coffee and a hot meal before they can perform at full capacity. 

Your expectations of her being overcome with desire spontaneously and tearing your clothes and begging for your schlong are simply unrealistic. 

It may happen a number of times throughout the rest of your life times as married couple. Enjoy it when/if it happens. 

The other 99% of the time, you are going to have to step up to the plate and use flirtation, seduction, physical affection and foreplay to stimulate her to a level of arousal for sex. 

That may be a bit unfair, but the world is what the world is.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Well... I was going to dispute some of the assumptions about the way I'm asking for it. Give a few scenarios or something. But the truth is, I know the answer. She's not into it and nothing is going to change that. I'm asking her to wipe the dogs ass and enjoy it. Not gonna happen. 

Time for me to look at the Caste Tree Berry again, or maybe a high soy diet.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

As a side note, as a married man of 22 years, I do understand your desire to have your wife show you some desire and initiative. 

There is nothing I'd love more than to come home and find my wife in French maid lingerie on the bed touching herself all over and writhing around begging for my manhood. 

There is a reason that 98% of porn is depiction of a woman burning with desire so bad that she attacks whatever man walks in the door and begs him to ravage her in a futile attempt to quench her insatiable desire for sex ---


---- it's because it rarely happens in real life. 

In real life men have to be attractive and fit and virile and desirable to begin with and then they have to have a level of assertiveness, initiative and dominance and seduce and stimulate the female before she will give the green light. 

Mother Nature never intended for weak, passive, lazy males to breed. 

In nature the true "Alpha Male" lives a short, brutal life and dies of exhaustion, starvation and disease after the younger bucks have risen up and kicked his @$$ after he got too old and weak to fight them off. His life may have been short and brutal, but he got a lot of poon in his time.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> I get it about once every two weeks. That's with the 3 or 4 or 5 rainchecks I'll get in the meantime. If I stopped asking, I'd stop getting. But the turn downs I get when I ask are just too painful/stressful. And I feel bad because it's only sex, right. Not important to her.


OK, so here is a real important question - 

You are having sex about every two weeks with several rejections in between. 

Is she responding to the 6th request and giving in because she gets tired of you bugging her so she throws you a bone approximately ever 6th attempt?

Or is she getting down with you about every 2 weeks and is somewhat into it regardless of how many attempts you make in between?

That is a very important distinction to make. 

If her sexual thermostat is set at about every two weeks and it takes that long for her "love tank" to fill up (think of that hot water heater tank analogy) then that is just kind of how she is and what you have to work with. 

If that is the case, then my recommendation would be to maintain some flirtation and affection, but back way off on the actual bids for sex between those two week intervals and see what happens. 

You may still have to do a hard initiation around the two week mark for an actual sexual encounter. But if she is a two-week person, then you can see what you can do to maximize that activity when it occurs.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

If she is just breaking down and throwing you a bone after you've begs half a dozen or more times and she just lays there and watches the clock and tells you to hurry up and get it over with, then you've got bigger problems on your hands.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think you have to be with a true LD / asexual person to understand the interaction. You "just take her hand and lead her to the bedroom". If I tried that, once my wife realized what I had in mind - eg if I started kissing her passionately, undressingher, whatever - she would either:

A: Say UHTRED (jokingly) - not now, we have to (something random that provides an excuse)

B: I'm sorry, but I'm really too (tired / sick / busy / excuse of the day). Maybe later.


What would NEVER happen, is for her to respond passionately to my advances. Believe me, over 30 years I've tried this and probably every other approach you can imagine. 


In a normal relationship, I think that here is always an undercurrent of sexually attraction that just needs to be kindled. With a LD / asexual person, there is no passion to kindle. No fuel, nothing to burn. 



BluesPower said:


> Guys, there are several things going on with OP's marriage/wife and others in similar situations.
> 
> First, HD and LD together... overall just a bad deal...
> 
> ...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> So very familiar.
> 
> My wife talks about wanting sex...in the future. We plan romantic trips (which we both enjoy, I like romance too), and she hits at lots of passionate sex. It does't happen. She thinks she wants sex, but she really doesn't. Not in our house, not in an ancient palace in Venice, not on a south pacific island, not in a luxury high-rise hotel in Shanghai, or a thatched hut in the Yucatan. Not during an exciting trip to the mountains, not on a quiet relaxing vacation in a riverside lodge.
> 
> ...


Sounds somewhat familiar. Every once in a while, my wife will say something like that. Not long ago, she said she was “going to become my porn star.” She sounded sincere at the time, and she is not one to either say crude things or make idle promises. But when it came right down to it, it was still up to me to do all the work, bring all the imagination, make all the proposals, and be prepared for either rejection or infrequent, unenthusiastic participation. 

So in the end, it’s still once a month missionary, but now maybe with ever so brief oral foreplay. Swell. 

She does sometimes get turned on by travel. She does like a nice hotel room, especially after a classy or fun meal out. We were really looking forward to taking advantage of this as we became empty nesters and she could join me on my business travel which takes me to cities she loves. But then with menopause, her already anemic desire tanked even further and she became even more susceptible to UTIs. Last thing we want is for her to get sick when we’re 500 miles from home and her doctor.

And she wonders why I carry so much anger sometimes.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> If that is the case, then my recommendation would be to maintain some flirtation and affection, but back way off on the actual bids for sex between those two week intervals and see what happens.
> 
> You may still have to do a hard initiation around the two week mark for an actual sexual encounter. But if she is a two-week person, then you can see what you can do to maximize that activity when it occurs.


Even in the best case scenario-that this works perfectly and they have sex 2x/mo, 20 years from now he will wake up one day knowing his best years are long gone, and that he wasted them having infrequent, lackluster sex with a an only marginally interested participant.

At this point, I have to say that’s something to be avoided.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

As I'm reading this thread a few things come to mind. I can only provide a female perspective on this..... and these aren't criticisms, only observations.

We frequently hear about how womens expectations have changed and how hard that makes marriage. But the truth is that mens expectations have changed too.

There was a time when only access was expected.....not enthusiasm, and certainly not initiating. Hell, a guy would never demand oral..... that was for prostitutes. And i say that as one who doesn't mind giving it.

Not that this is a bad thing....i completely get that guys want to feel desired too, it's just an observation.

Then throw in porn and well, many women have trouble measuring up. Guys have long complained that romance novels set unreasonable expectations, and they certainly do. But what is reasonable is harder to agree on. 

So I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "setting expectations" when it comes to sex. It's a bonding experience, not a performance. And demanding one be into it is a fruitless pursuit..... it just isn't the kind of thing that can be demanded. Demanding gets you access (maybe), not enthusiasm.

But it is reasonable to want a decent sex life. You just need to, as has already been pointed out, work within her abilities. Even a woman who offers to act like a porn star may really mean it but in the end just not be able to do it. 

It's a tough issue with no good solution. I know that for me, 20 minutes of PIV sex is plenty.... I'd probably get dry too. And i have responsive desire..... my husband demanding I initiate would lead to me not being particularly turned on. I find it to be much more of a turn on if he's aggressive.

So what's the answer? I don't know. I know that's not helpful.....sexual mismatches are common. Even marriages where sex has been good can go through mismatch periods. You may just need to accept that you need to initiate.

Can you live with that?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Once she got into the shower/bath, you should have barged right in there with your "rigor mortis friend" in hand, and just laciviously had your way with her! When she said that you all should "go exploring," I would have thought that meant her personal "hilly areas" and "nether regions!" And demanded that she do a little enthusiastic exploring of her very own on you!

Barring success there, then that would have been the last damned time that I would have ever made a pass at her!

Regarding marital sex, she really has been having you "clean the dogs a$$," hasn't she?

Not blaming you totally, but a lot of women and some men have that rather well-rehearsed play of shirking sex with their partner firmly entrenched in their personal playbook!*


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are a lot of very different situations, and very different expectations, sometimes the HD partner is being unreasonable, sometimes the LD, and sometimes neither - they just aren't compatible. 

Women in general are not porn starts and men in general are not James Bond. But both can make an effort to be what their partner desires. Sometimes I think just making an honest effort goes a really long way. 

Also - its important to let you partner know *what* you desire - within reasonable bounds. Don't just expect them to somehow figure it out 




lifeistooshort said:


> As I'm reading this thread a few things come to mind. I can only provide a female perspective on this..... and these aren't criticisms, only observations.
> 
> We frequently hear about how womens expectations have changed and how hard that makes marriage. But the truth is that mens expectations have changed too.
> 
> ...


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

exert from a book; 

_So the best thing a dude can do is suck it up. Accept the fact that despite what our popular culture might be saying, in fact the female sex drive tends to be reactive, not proactive, and that you will have to put forth more effort than you'd probably like if you want to improve your sex life. Deal with it. _

Go back and read "married sex life primer" or "hold on to your nuts" or "no more mr. nice guy"


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think our time would be better spent if we all shared tips and "tricks" for getting our wives in the sack.

Somehow, after years of marriage we all (me included) turn into whiny babies about the sex we're not getting enough of.

When we were young I think we must have been better at this! 

Seems like someone should start a thread... "here's how I cleverly wooed my wife recently" where we can share tips and best practices! All this whining... beneath us!


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

if you demand that the man always or even almost always initiates then you can't include "accept rejection". because that quickly becomes "expect rejection" which is logically followed by "when you're interested let me know". 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting the man to be in charge of initiation. Expecting a man to soldier on through 80 % **** test rejections is seriously abusive, and leads to exactly this situation. She broke the relationship with her ice pickiness. She is about to reap the rewards of her decision. The only thing OP has done "wrong" was to stick with her for the kids sake.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I think you have to be with a true LD / asexual person to understand the interaction. You "just take her hand and lead her to the bedroom". If I tried that, once my wife realized what I had in mind - eg if I started kissing her passionately, undressingher, whatever - she would either:
> 
> A: Say UHTRED (jokingly) - not now, we have to (something random that provides an excuse)
> 
> ...


I hear what you are saying. 2 things, 1) Time to get a new wife, and 2) I would never be with a woman like that, ever. 

Like I wrote in another post, My Ex W and I had sex all the time and it was a horrible marriage.

I hate to be so crass with all the guys that are in that situation. I am a HD guy, and I guess I never thought about being with someone that was not like me.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Angelwanderer said:


> I've been here many times.
> 
> Clearly she doesn't initiate. Clearly you're trying to be fair and gentlemanly by giving her the first say. It's also clear that this approach doesn't work.
> 
> ...


Guys, look, I don't know how to say this where it sounds nice. 

For me and a lot of guys, it is not enough that I have a partner that allows me to have sex with her, how ever often. 

You have to have a partner that WANTS to have sex with you. One that if you skip a day because you are tired or get home late from a gig, she says something that next day. 

There are woman out their like this, I have known a few. It would never be enough for me that my partner let me have sex with her, she must want to have sex with me. 

If your partner does not want to have sex with you, then you are doing something wrong. And if you are doing everything right, then there is something wrong with her. 

Look the other night, now mind you I am 53, and my GF is 60, we went out, had dinner, I went to play at the jam I play at on Thurs, we come home and get busy. Those type of sessions usually only last about an hour maybe an hour and a half. 

She goes to sleep, I can't sleep chill for a while, finally get in bed and spoon up to sleep. While she is asleep, she starts grinding on me in her sleep. And since she likes to be woken up to sex, well I did what had to be done. 

While this one is the best women ever, I have had a lot of GF's that want this much sex. 

Why others do not, I don't know, because I never dated them...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

People's sex drives vary. There may be no right or wrong, but there IS incompatibility. 






BluesPower said:


> snip
> If your partner does not want to have sex with you, then you are doing something wrong. And if you are doing everything right, then there is something wrong with her.
> snip


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Then he lied when he told her he was having fun to spare her feelings. You’ll never fix anything if you’re not willing to make her uncomfortable with your discomfort.


You should both be uncomfortable if sex is not happening. And you should both express it openly. If you hide your unhappiness, and shelter her from the consequences of her choices, then you will never resolve the issue. Of course, resolving the issue might be to split up so you both are free to be with someone you want to have sex with who wants to have sex with you. If you are not willing to openly express your unhappiness, and not willing to leave over your unhappiness, then you are doomed to remain unhappy.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> if you demand that the man always or even almost always initiates then you can't include "accept rejection". because that quickly becomes "expect rejection" which is logically followed by "when you're interested let me know".
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with expecting the man to be in charge of initiation. Expecting a man to soldier on through 80 % **** test rejections is seriously abusive, and leads to exactly this situation. She broke the relationship with her ice pickiness. She is about to reap the rewards of her decision. The only thing OP has done "wrong" was to stick with her for the kids sake.


I completely agree that it's unreasonable too expect a guy to soldier on through 80% rejection. I know in my house I have seldom been unwilling to give it at least an honest try.

But if one's wife isn't open to his initiating (at reasonable intervals..... twice a day or daily is a lot for many people) then she certainly won't be initiating much. So he needs to consider if there's a reasonable chance of getting what he's asking for. In her case probably not.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sometimes initiating is actually negative. I've notice that my wife never accepts if I initiate. ( at least not in the 2 years that I've been keeping track). Sex only happens if she decides to initiate without any hints / suggestions from me.


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes initiating is actually negative. I've notice that my wife never accepts if I initiate. ( at least not in the 2 years that I've been keeping track). Sex only happens if she decides to initiate without any hints / suggestions from me.


I should also point out that sometimes the point of initiation isn't clear. Is it when I first mention something to her in the morning. Is it a mid-afternoon text? Is it when I arrive home from work and say something? Or is it that point after kids are in bed, where it's just me and the wife? Cause that last moment is usually the point where she gives me the excuse and asks for a raincheck. 

If it's that last moment, then I'm not sure how I get around the raincheck. I'm not going to say it's a surprise when it comes, but it does act as a catch all for no sex.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> I should also point out that sometimes the point of initiation isn't clear. Is it when I first mention something to her in the morning. Is it a mid-afternoon text? Is it when I arrive home from work and say something? Or is it that point after kids are in bed, where it's just me and the wife? Cause that last moment is usually the point where she gives me the excuse and asks for a raincheck.
> 
> If it's that last moment, then I'm not sure how I get around the raincheck. I'm not going to say it's a surprise when it comes, but it does act as a catch all for no sex.


ugh... there is so much i could say right now... 

have you ever tried telling her that you will not engage her unless she means what she says? for instance, if she says she will do something, and then refuse when the time comes, then you will refuse to do what YOU say you will do? have you ever tried treating her needs and desires the same way she has been treating yours?


----------



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> ugh... there is so much i could say right now...
> 
> have you ever tried telling her that you will not engage her unless she means what she says? for instance, if she says she will do something, and then refuse when the time comes, then you will refuse to do what YOU say you will do? have you ever tried treating her needs and desires the same way she has been treating yours?


Well, you know how they say intimacy and emotional connections are connected? The resentments make me unable to fulfill her emotional needs. So, in a sense, yes. But it may make it all worse, IDK.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Well, you know how they say intimacy and emotional connections are connected? The resentments make me unable to fulfill her emotional needs. So, in a sense, yes. But it may make it all worse, IDK.


in a sense? thats the kind of mental ninjutsu phrasing we hear from people who are trying to justify their actions AFTER the fact. 

no, you need to make it clear as day ahead of time. it needs to be stated, so that your words and your actions match. if your words and actions dont match, then why the hell should she listen to your words?


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

yes, yes, there is not a reasonable chance of this relationship surviving. the possibilities are divorce or unhappily ever after.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> Guys, look, I don't know how to say this where it sounds nice.
> 
> For me and a lot of guys, it is not enough that I have a partner that allows me to have sex with her, how ever often.
> 
> ...


I am much the same way. 

It is a matter of values really. Some people value blonds, some redheads. Some people value similar faith or value ambition or dependability. Some people value sociability and some value quiet togetherness. 

Many people enjoy sex and want to do it.....but they don't truly value being desired.

They may value other things more like stability or coparenting under the same roof or value the nest egg in the bank etc. Some value acceptance by their family and church and community and shudder at the thought of scorn of the church ladies if they divorce. 

But for someone that truly values a passionate life of intimacy with someone that desires them - they will pay the lawyer and court fees and divide the marital assets. They will ignore the scoffs of the church ladies. 

That is assuming they were sold a bad bill of goods or was the victim of a bait and switch. 

The chances most wouldn't marry someone in the first place without an established life of passion first. 

I could have never got beyond a 3rd date without a clear-cut sign of sexual desire. 

I could have never married someone that was inhibited or was sex-negative. 

But if someone did get through the screen, after a month of rejection I would be demanding a reason and seeking options to address it. 

At the 3 month mark I would be making arrangments to move on and offering final options. 

At the 6 month mark I would be writing retainer checks on lawyers and getting the paperwork and financial and legal affairs in order. 

And at some point after that, I would be seeking suitable replacement. 

Money is meant to be spent. lawyer and court fees to get out of celibate bondage is an investment for life in my book. 

Marital assets??? What furniture and tvs????? Couldn't care less. 

Cars? Have you ever driven by a Carmax? 

Kids? joint, shared custody is the default in most of the united states. A few kid-free evenings a week sounds awesome. 

Alimony/spousal support/ splitting financial accounts? I understand some people's consternation here but in my case, my wife getting professional credentials and making a living income was a condition of marriage for just such an occasion. 

You see here's the thing - I did not ever want my wife to be dependent on me because I did not want her to be stuck with me if she ended up not liking or wanting me. 

Let me simplify that - I want her to leave if she doesn't love, desire or want to be with me. 

You read that right in case you missed it, I set up my marriage from the get-go that we would have separate accounts, separate finances and credit and each have a self-supporting professional career so that either one of us could walk away if one decided they didn't want to be with the other. 

Don't misunderstand that, I will be sad and heartbroke if she leaves and I will be bummed that our hopes and dreams forever did not pan out. 

But I would rather she leave and take half the crap in the house with her and split the child-rearing between two households rather be trapped in a loveless and sexless marriage. 

That is what someone that values desire and passion and sexual intimacy does and that is how they view marital sexuality. 

These guys that whine and moan that they wife hasn't touched them in two years but won't do anything about it do not value passion and desire. 

They don't. 

They may want to have sex and they may miss it - but they don't value it. 

They value stability and comfort and status quo. 

They value you not being questioned or judged by church ladies. 

They value not upsetting anyone. 

If they valued passion and desire and being wanted, they would be getting their affairs in order upon being told that they weren't desired sexually anymore. 

Their pain may be sincere and their anguish may be real. I'm not saying they aren't. 

But if they truly valued being desired they'd be busting their arse in the gym or in their career or whatever else it is that does turn her on. 

- or they'd be packing their sht and moving on despite the court costs and lawyer fees. 

Everyone has their own values and breaking point if those values are not being met. 

For some it's sexuality. for some it's home and family. for some it's financial security. For some it's keeping up with the Jones's or looking good in the community. 

But for those who value passion and desire and sexuality, When the bedroom dies, the relationship dies with it. And when something dies, you grieve, you honor, you bury, you recover and you move on.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Now that being said, I have dated and been involved with women that weren't necessarily the prettiest (they were attractive to me). 

They may not have been the most educated or most successful financially (they were all at least self-supporting)

And they may not have been loved and embraced by my friends and family (although no one has ever said anything against any of them)

But what they all have had in common is they all desired me sexually and all have been sex-positive and all have valued sexuality as a critical component of the relationship. 

None of them viewed sexuality as "chore" or price of admission to be in a relationship. 

That also means that all of them would have left me had I stopped engaging them and satisfying them sexually. 

And it also means that none of them were sweet and innocent and naïve virgin church girls. 

These were sexually powerful, sexually confident and sexually competent adult women. 

Not all men can truly deal with that. It takes a man that values sexuality and passion and desire to accept to sexually empowered woman. 

You either value sexuality, desire and passion and are willing to engage the beast - or you are not. 

If you are ready, willing and able to engage the beast. You gotta be willing to walk away from that which does not desire you.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Now that being said, I have dated and been involved with women that weren't necessarily the prettiest (they were attractive to me).
> 
> They may not have been the most educated or most successful financially (they were all at least self-supporting)
> 
> ...


*
*

This is honestly why I have never fond myself in a sexless relationship. I just wouldn’t tolerate it. Life is short and I enjoy sex. If my partner doesn’t no problem, some just don’t I guess,.....but for me NEXT.

So long as the OP is unwilling to move on this will just be his life. Sounds very sad to me.


----------



## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes initiating is actually negative. I've notice that my wife never accepts if I initiate. ( at least not in the 2 years that I've been keeping track). Sex only happens if she decides to initiate without any hints / suggestions from me.


I think Oldshirt said this earlier - but probably pertinent still since there's lots of chatter on rejection - initiating sex needs to happen way before night time when you finally stroll to bed. I see too many threads where this comes up and it isn't clear that all guys get this (no saying you don't). You need to be gaming / romancing your wife all the time. Period. Just like you did before you said "I do". Not just the last 1hr of the day or the days you really want sex. When you game your wife consistently that it creates positive tension and gives you a clue to where she is and gets her mind thinking that direction. To not do so reminds me of the first Austin Powers movie where Austin is asking Vanessa is he makes her "Raaaaandy". She's like :scratchhead:

I wasn't there so can't say for sure but based on the fact that she asked him why he hadn't initiated sex the following are likely true: 1) He just expected to show up and for her to just offer it and be ready just because it was a special occasion 2) She does not want to initiate (probably ever) and it's a huge turnoff when he simply refuses to sweep her off her feet 3) years of rejection has emasculated this man and he's completely lost confidence and has no idea how to game his wife or what gets her going. I speculate that when she asked him why they haven't yet had sex there was probably a fair amount of disappointment on her end too. She's likely pining for a slightly different form of her same husband and was hoping he's magically show up - the guy that she started dating that flirted and complimented excessively and couldn't wait to get his hand under her shirt at the first opportunity...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its always hard to know what is going on in these cases. What "initiating" means. Whether someone is ignoring their partner, then suddenly wants to jump in the sack. 

Some of us do romance our wives or husbands constantly. Its just that sometimes those wives or husbands just don't want sex. 






BigDigg said:


> I think Oldshirt said this earlier - but probably pertinent still since there's lots of chatter on rejection - initiating sex needs to happen way before night time when you finally stroll to bed. I see too many threads where this comes up and it isn't clear that all guys get this (no saying you don't). You need to be gaming / romancing your wife all the time. Period. Just like you did before you said "I do". Not just the last 1hr of the day or the days you really want sex. When you game your wife consistently that it creates positive tension and gives you a clue to where she is and gets her mind thinking that direction. To not do so reminds me of the first Austin Powers movie where Austin is asking Vanessa is he makes her "Raaaaandy". She's like :scratchhead:
> 
> I wasn't there so can't say for sure but based on the fact that she asked him why he hadn't initiated sex the following are likely true: 1) He just expected to show up and for her to just offer it and be ready just because it was a special occasion 2) She does not want to initiate (probably ever) and it's a huge turnoff when he simply refuses to sweep her off her feet 3) years of rejection has emasculated this man and he's completely lost confidence and has no idea how to game his wife or what gets her going. I speculate that when she asked him why they haven't yet had sex there was probably a fair amount of disappointment on her end too. She's likely pining for a slightly different form of her same husband and was hoping he's magically show up - the guy that she started dating that flirted and complimented excessively and couldn't wait to get his hand under her shirt at the first opportunity...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Its always hard to know what is going on in these cases. What "initiating" means. Whether someone is ignoring their partner, then suddenly wants to jump in the sack.
> 
> Some of us do romance our wives or husbands constantly. Its just that sometimes those wives or husbands just don't want sex.


Indeed. Some women get what is for them the best of both worlds; they get constant romance and give very little if any sex. Nice work if you can find it.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That seems to assume that women in general don't enjoy sex. I don't think that's true. 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Indeed. Some women get what is for them the best of both worlds; they get constant romance and give very little if any sex. Nice work if you can find it.


----------



## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

uhtred said:


> That seems to assume that women in general don't enjoy sex. I don't think that's true.


Really? Maybe you should read it again. 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Indeed. *Some* women get *what is for them* the best of both worlds; they get constant romance and give very little if any sex. Nice work if you can find it.


I don't read "some women...what is for them" as meaning "women in general.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> That seems to assume that women in general don't enjoy sex. I don't think that's true.


No.

I said “some women”, not “women in general.”

“Some” generally means a small subset, a minority, a few, less than half, etc.


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No.
> 
> I said “some women”, not “women in general.”
> 
> “Some” generally means a small subset, a minority, a few, less than half, etc.


Aka - the majority of wives of men posting in sex in marriage forum. :grin2:


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Windwalker said:


> Aka - the majority of wives of men posting in sex in marriage forum. :grin2:


Yep. While there have been a few women posting here about husbands not performing, as well as some lamenting how hubby wants nothing but sex, I have yet to see a thread from a man titled “Help, wife wants too much sex!”


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yep. While there have been a few women posting here about husbands not performing, as well as some lamenting how hubby wants nothing but sex, I have yet to see a thread from a man titled “Help, wife wants too much sex!”


Yeah, about that. I am not sure there is such a thing as too much sex. I have wondered that a few times, but never actually thought that I was having too much sex. 

I know that New GF and I have let some things go that we needed to get done because we were having sex all day... But I see that as time management not too much sex.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its fairly unusual for anyone to post that their partner wants too much sex, unless that partner is also selfish or in other obvious ways undesirable. Mostly we get posts from HD people (of either gender) complaining about their LD partners. Much less common to get posts form LD people complaining about their HD partners - though it does happen. 




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yep. While there have been a few women posting here about husbands not performing, as well as some lamenting how hubby wants nothing but sex, I have yet to see a thread from a man titled “Help, wife wants too much sex!”


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

I've found out long ago via much banging my head against a wall that trying to fix a marriage, and all other relationships, are like personal electronics. Its easier, less stressful, and often less costly in money and emotions, to simply replace it with a new and working model. when you fix the old one, which never seems to be repaired right and you're constantly wondering when it going to fall apart.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> I've found out long ago via much banging my head against a wall that trying to fix a marriage, and all other relationships, are like personal electronics. Its easier, less stressful, and often less costly in money and emotions, to simply replace it with a new and working model. when you fix the old one, which never seems to be repaired right and you're constantly wondering when it going to fall apart.


i have always seen marriage as something that you grow. it may very well be that you dont have the climate to be able to grow it, in which case its better to swap out, but regardless...

its either getting better or getting worse, as a general rule.


----------



## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

I didn't read the entire thread, so my apologies if this is redundant.

You don't have a communication problem. Your wife knows all too well what you want. She doesn't want it. She may in fact actively seek to avoid it.

I think it's safe to say that your wife has little interest in fixing this problem. Therefore, it will never be fixed. 

You seem to be a slow learner. Bringing sex toys you know she doesn't like? Why? Asking her for a copulation forecast? What exactly do you expect to get from this? How many times does she need to reject you before you get the message?

Don't try to force a cat to bark. It will only make you both miserable. Either get a dog or learn to appreciate the occasional meow. She ain't gonna bark.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yep. While there have been a few women posting here about husbands not performing, as well as some lamenting how hubby wants nothing but sex, I have yet to see a thread from a man titled “Help, wife wants too much sex!”


True that very few LD males post on forums. Not true that this indicates there are very few LD men or very few men who are thinking to themselves "my wife wants too much sex". They think it. They act on it (they turn down their wives or make themselves unavailable). But they do not post on Internet forums about it.

Men simply are not going to admit openly and in public that they cannot keep up with their wife's desire for sex. It happens. But in silence and darkness. We have brought divorced couples and unwed mothers and gays and trans people out of the shadows. Maybe we can bring LD men out of the shadows too?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> True that very few LD males post on forums. Not true that this indicates there are very few LD men or very few men who are thinking to themselves "my wife wants too much sex". They think it. They act on it (they turn down their wives or make themselves unavailable). But they do not post on Internet forums about it.
> 
> Men simply are not going to admit openly and in public that they cannot keep up with their wife's desire for sex. It happens. But in silence and darkness. We have brought divorced couples and unwed mothers and gays and trans people out of the shadows. Maybe we can bring LD men out of the shadows too?


It happens, 
but in relatively small numbers when compared to the reverse.


----------



## FancyPants (Apr 12, 2018)

uhtred said:


> That seems to assume that women in general don't enjoy sex. I don't think that's true.


What isn't being discussed here is whether or not the spouse is as skilled as he assumes himself to be.

I have seen this lots of times. Men who assume they are great in the sack, but ask their wives and they are a dud. 

Of course it's easy to blame the wife and say she's LD. Why is she LD? 

I'm not saying it's the husband's fault exactly. Just that a man who thinks that a couple of kisses, a few pinchy grabs followed by a few of minutes of pounding is enough because he's satisfied shouldn't be surprised when his wife isn't all that interested. Just because she orgasms doesn't mean it was all that and a bag of chips for her. 

Many women I know would love to open up to their supposes about this. They just don't know how to do it without bruising their hubby's ego. That's too bad, as he would usually really like to know what he can do to make it great for both of them.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Difficult to know - and that just ads to the general misery of the situation. The HD is wondering if they are doing something wrong. They can spend years, or decades trying to figure out how they can be "better" - better people better lovers, more romantic, whatever. 

The temptation to have an affair just to find out if I really am a good lover is very strong. 

In my case, I actually think I am not a bad lover. I enjoy pleasing her. I've read very extensively on technique. I'm willing to do anything she asks for in bed. She *appears* to have an O most of the time - though of course if she has been skillfully faking for 30 years, how could I know. A long ago previous lover said I was wonderful - but of course she might just have been trying to make me feel good.

Its possible for women to be bad lovers as well. Anything from "starfish", to thinking that getting their partner off as quickly as possible is the goal. 

I think that often the LD people really are naturally LD. 





FancyPants said:


> What isn't being discussed here is whether or not the spouse is as skilled as he assumes himself to be.
> 
> I have seen this lots of times. Men who assume they are great in the sack, but ask their wives and they are a dud.
> 
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Handy said:


> I am not suggesting going "cave man" on her, dragging her back to your cave and having your way with her.



FWIW, this was the option of ‘last resort’ that I tried and miraculously, it worked. And since have never been the same again.

It wasn’t quite like that but the gist is the same.

I am not sure it is that reasonable to lay out a certain scenario on the table and expect the wife to do it with a smile.

Even if, technically, OP’s wife ‘broke’ the agreement, it doesn’t mean the terms were reasonable. I don’t see why it is a big deal for the man to initiate and do the pursuing; women like it and as long as there was no flat out rejection (and I didn’t see that that was the case rom the post; perhaps it’s different at home?), I suspect she was expecting to feel the horniness coming from husband and him having her way with her. She was even surprised it didn’t happen. It’s actually quite unnatural for women to initiate (in majority of cases).





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> FWIW, this was the option of ‘last resort’ that I tried and miraculously, it worked. And since have never been the same again.
> 
> It wasn’t quite like that but the gist is the same.
> 
> ...


What? Not in my (limited) experience. I mean if 4 out of 5 of the women I've known initiated, how did I get so lucky?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> What? Not in my (limited) experience. I mean if 4 out of 5 of the women I've known initiated, how did I get so lucky?


How long have you known them for? It's easier to initiate in the beginning of a relationship, when hormones are helping. Otherwise perhaps it's maybe time for you to play the lottery :wink2:


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

From 3 months up to 30 years (the 3 monther was the one who didn't initiate) So what you are saying is that men naturally don't need a hormone rush to be comfortable with initiating, but women naturally are uncomfortable with initiating, but can overcome it with a hormone push. I might accept this as there does seem to be some cyclical pattern to her initiation. But honestly, I believe it has nothing to do with nature, and everything to do with social conditioning. In other words If I have to do all of the initiating Then I should be free from washing dishes (or some other shared marital chore like buying presents, or planning dates, or changing diapers) But if you have a true 50/50 partnership then every other ****ing initiation is on her, nature or not.


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> I should also point out that sometimes the point of initiation isn't clear. Is it when I first mention something to her in the morning. Is it a mid-afternoon text? Is it when I arrive home from work and say something? Or is it that point after kids are in bed, where it's just me and the wife? Cause that last moment is usually the point where she gives me the excuse and asks for a raincheck.
> 
> If it's that last moment, then I'm not sure how I get around the raincheck. I'm not going to say it's a surprise when it comes, but it does act as a catch all for no sex.


If she offers a rain check in the future, say that you were actually cashing in a raincheck, that you have hundreds of them, and she can't raincheck a raincheck.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

re16 said:


> ... she can't raincheck a raincheck.


Unless it's _always _raining where you live. Such is the state of some marriages.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> From 3 months up to 30 years (the 3 monther was the one who didn't initiate) So what you are saying is that men naturally don't need a hormone rush to be comfortable with initiating, but women naturally are uncomfortable with initiating, but can overcome it with a hormone push. I might accept this as there does seem to be some cyclical pattern to her initiation. But honestly, I believe it has nothing to do with nature, and everything to do with social conditioning. In other words If I have to do all of the initiating Then I should be free from washing dishes (or some other shared marital chore like buying presents, or planning dates, or changing diapers) But if you have a true 50/50 partnership then every other ****ing initiation is on her, nature or not.


You don't *have* to do all the initiating. But maybe you are right, part of it is probably social. Many women feel it's 'unlady-lke' to initiate or appear keen on sex. On the other hand you get the whole feminist movement too, so maybe that should balance it out.

I don't really have any stats on this but it seems a lot of men on TAM are complaining about the same thing and I see it in real life too. More importantly (kind of), I see it with animals; I don't think I have seen a female initiating sex in nature but I am sure it exists in some species.


Interesting article:

Tracey Cox on why women don't initiate sex | Daily Mail Online

Says that men initiate twice as often as women. But not in new relationships: for new relationships it seems equal. Also there is a big drop in desire between year one and four but only for women.
Which is roughly what I thought. And the threads here bear it out.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> In my case, I actually think I am not a bad lover. I enjoy pleasing her. I've read very extensively on technique. I'm willing to do anything she asks for in bed. She *appears* to have an O most of the time - though of course if she has been skillfully faking for 30 years, how could I know. A long ago previous lover said I was wonderful - but of course she might just have been trying to make me feel good.


Whether you are 'good' or 'bad'....these things you listed doesn't mean you are a suitably compatible lover for *her*.

1. "I enjoy pleasing her."

Many women don't enjoy their husband wanting to 'please' them. They get the most out of sex when they know the husband is enjoying himself by being 'selfish' and going for it. To feel desire, they need their husband to radiate it in the first place.

2. "I've read very extensively on technique."

It doesn't mean those techniques are in any way suitable for her specific type; there is incredible variety out there and no one (or even 100) 'right' techniques that are universal.

3. "I'm willing to do anything she asks for in bed."

Some women find it one of the biggest turn offs when the husband awaits instructions from them to do stuff in bed to them.

4. "She *appears* to have an O most of the time"

Having an O does not in any way mean she enjoyed the experience. An O is a bodily response to a stimulant; like sneezing.

5. "A long ago previous lover said I was wonderful"

I don't see the relevance. There is no 'objective' good lover; it's only relative to the perception of your current lover.

I don't mean to single you out by taking apart your post or argue that your wife is not LD or that you are not a good lover. Just that I think these misconceptions are quite common among many posts I have read by men and I thought I'd point them out in case they are relevant to someone else.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> You don't *have* to do all the initiating. But maybe you are right, part of it is probably social. Many women feel it's 'unlady-lke' to initiate or appear keen on sex. On the other hand you get the whole feminist movement too, so maybe that should balance it out.
> 
> I don't really have any stats on this but it seems a lot of men on TAM are complaining about the same thing and I see it in real life too. More importantly (kind of), I see it with animals; *I don't think I have seen a female initiating sex in nature but I am sure it exists in some species.*
> 
> ...


I'll get to that article. looks good so far.
as to the animals, I guess you are not familiar with Felis domestica . All of that "morals of a tom cat" stuff is just bad press. The females are begging at the door. quite loudly too.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'll get to that article. looks good so far.
> 
> as to the animals, I guess you are not familiar with Felis domestica . All of that "morals of a tom cat" stuff is just bad press. The females are begging at the door. quite loudly too.



Of course. There are always exceptions. The article provides the stats btw, it would be foolish to dismiss them IMO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There is no way to know. 

1). Maybe - but my wife has very little interest in my pleasure, views getting me off as a job she has to do. In her case I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply. 

2). agreed - but having knowledge is better than not. 

3). Well she never asks, so it rarely matters. Having sex with someone who will only tell you what they don't want (which of course changes) but not what they do can be pretty frustrating.

4) Completely agree, but better than not.

5). agreed.


But that leaves me (and anyone else in a LD/HD) in a bit of a pickle. I'm with someone who gives no indication of what they want, but who appears to not want sex. How can I possibly tell if their lack of interest is due to something I am doing or not doing - since of course what people want but in and out of be varies so much.

This leads to the endless, and usually hopeless attempts of the HD to figure out how to fix things. By the time they have tried everything, so much time has past that it has become difficult to leave. 

I think that people who enjoy sex don't need it to be "perfect". If they have a partner who is generally willing to please and who has no significant negative issues, then they will be happy to have sex. If someone only wants sex under a very limited, and never described, set of circumstances, then they are effectively naturally LD. 







inmyprime said:


> Whether you are 'good' or 'bad'....these things you listed doesn't mean you are a suitably compatible lover for *her*.
> 
> 1. "I enjoy pleasing her."
> 
> ...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Yes I agree. And your situation to be honest often leaves me scratching my head more often than not. I mentioned those things in case they are helpful to anyone else.

I think if I was you, I would have been pushing to the limit from the beginning, to see what there is (if there is anything at the limit). It's possible for sex to start off as a habit, and eventually even become pleasurable. 
During those 'habit' times, even if the sex is mediocre, that's the time when I would try and figure out what it is they like (if anything) as best as I could.

I often had what is considered here as 'duty' sex. I never fobbed it off or dismissed it but used the time to try things out. 



uhtred said:


> There is no way to know.
> 
> 1). Maybe - but my wife has very little interest in my pleasure, views getting me off as a job she has to do. In her case I'm pretty sure this doesn't apply.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Very good article. the statistics are interesting but the only cause she could pin down for the effect was either, She's bored with you, or Society says it's the mans job. Well I'm going all affirmative action on this warped society.
Next read through, substitute a male pronoun for every female pronoun. and vise versa. I found the article just as true looking at it with the genders reversed. Every reason women fear or avoid initiation is a reason men use. Every reason women like it when men initiate is a reason men like it when women initiate.


----------



## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I think it is time for you to start The 180. 

Start doing things with the kids and detaching from your wife. Once you are ready file for divorce and find someone that is actually attracted to you.


----------

