# CA Spousal support +\- child support?



## imperfectworld (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm the breadwinner, 15 year marriage, zero spouse income. Would be seeking full custody. Expensive spousal support is what I'm looking at; I get that. But since I'd also have to pay for daycare while I work, I'm not sure the numbers even work. 

Would the court reduce the spousal support in light of the fact that I'd also have full custody and have to pay for daycare in order to work?


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

What grounds to you have for seeking full custody? It is rare for the stay at home parent/primary caregiver to have custody full custody taken from them. You should consult with an attorney ASAP.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

imperfectworld said:


> Would the court reduce the spousal support in light of the fact that I'd also have full custody and have to pay for daycare in order to work?


Not reduce spousal support, but you could be granted child support which would be paid using the spousal support. You want it this way because of the tax advantage.

You can deduct the spousal support you pay her. She needs to declare that as income and pay tax on it. But the child support you receive would be after tax, and not included in your taxable income. 

Also, any terminating events (such as her getting a job) would end your spousal support obligation, but she would still need to pay child support.


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## imperfectworld (Jan 18, 2015)

kristin2349 said:


> What grounds to you have for seeking full custody? It is rare for the stay at home parent/primary caregiver to have custody full custody taken from them. You should consult with an attorney ASAP.




Severe mental health issues, including hospitalization.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What percentage of the time will she have the children?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

imperfectworld said:


> I'm the breadwinner, 15 year marriage, zero spouse income. Would be seeking full custody. Expensive spousal support is what I'm looking at; I get that. But since I'd also have to pay for daycare while I work, I'm not sure the numbers even work.
> 
> Would the court reduce the spousal support in light of the fact that I'd also have full custody and have to pay for daycare in order to work?


If you are the breadwinner and would have to have daycare for the kids, the courts will award full custody to zero income spouse. You'll probably lose half your income + child support, half the value of your house and probably be restricted to the amount of time you can see your kids. Yes, breadwinners get screwed. I'm going through this to, the cost of divorce is too high for me.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Please tell me you have a lawyer. People will cherry pick and give you all types of advice which is correct for specific situations. Courts do strange things and you want to be fully informed by a professional. Like the post above may be true, but it is also completely ignoring diminished capacity and mental instability you posted later. If you can prove she is a danger to the kids jb's post is incorrect, in your situation, even if you would have to pay for daycare.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Please tell me you have a lawyer. People will cherry pick and give you all types of advice which is correct for specific situations. Courts do strange things and you want to be fully informed by a professional. Like the post above may be true, but it is also completely ignoring diminished capacity and mental instability you posted later. If you can prove she is a danger to the kids jb's post is incorrect, in your situation, even if you would have to pay for daycare.


Good luck proving she is a danger to the kids. Courts will almost never take the kids away from their mother.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

jb02157 said:


> Good luck proving she is a danger to the kids. Courts will almost never take the kids away from their mother.


Mental instability is a much different scenario than "danger to the kids." One is extremely specific, the other is a court game some play to win custody. He has a specific situation WITH actual hospitalization, which involves records. This isn't a "he said, she said" type of custody battle. Being informed, which is why two of us suggested a lawyer, is way better than luck


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Mental instability is a much different scenario than "danger to the kids." One is extremely specific, the other is a court game some play to win custody. He has a specific situation WITH actual hospitalization, which involves records. This isn't a "he said, she said" type of custody battle. Being informed, which is why two of us suggested a lawyer, is way better than luck


It would be nice if the OP made that clearer. Anyway, be that as it may, I have personally been involved in situations where the court still gave full custody to a woman who had a lengthy hospital stay and gave her full day care paid for by the father until fully recovered. I think a lawyer is a good idea but I still think he wouldn't win custody.


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## imperfectworld (Jan 18, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> It would be nice if the OP made that clearer. Anyway, be that as it may, I have personally been involved in situations where the court still gave full custody to a woman who had a lengthy hospital stay and gave her full day care paid for by the father until fully recovered. I think a lawyer is a good idea but I still think he wouldn't win custody.




She's on her second 5150 (involuntary) hospitalization now, and this time she has made violent statements, albeit in a rambling incoherent manner that isn't specifically threatening. 

The money couldn't work if she was awarded regular spousal support and I had to pay FT daycare. It would leave me with $400 for utilities, gas, groceries, clothes, etc. At that rate I'd prefer to stay caretaker rather than face homelessness or running away. 

I'm surprised I don't see more money posts in the "considering divorce" section. I watched alimony eat my father alive until he died from cancer.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

imperfectworld said:


> She's on her second 5150 (involuntary) hospitalization now, and this time she has made violent statements, albeit in a rambling incoherent manner that isn't specifically threatening.
> 
> The money couldn't work if she was awarded regular spousal support and I had to pay FT daycare. It would leave me with $400 for utilities, gas, groceries, clothes, etc. At that rate I'd prefer to stay caretaker rather than face homelessness or running away.


Have you spoken to an attorney?

As someone else said, there is a chance that the court would have her pay you child support out of her spousal support.

Does she have any other means of support? Could she get disability. Perhaps the two of you could come to an agreement that she works to get disability.

What does your attorney say?



imperfectworld said:


> I'm surprised I don't see more money posts in the "considering divorce" section. I watched alimony eat my father alive until he died from cancer.


I think that there are two reasons for this.

One is that people get attorneys and they go by what their attorney ys say. 

The other is that there is alimony awared in only about 15% of the divorces. And it's usually short-term, rehabilitative. The average alimony payment is $300 a month. Most women have jobs.


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## imperfectworld (Jan 18, 2015)

No attorney yet. I spoke to one last year during the first incident. Been scrambling to get daycare set up, nightly hospital visits, etc. 

She'll pretty much never get a job; I can count on that. Went through like 20 temp jobs and fired from most of them. And CPS "fired" her from being a mom.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

imperfectworld said:


> She's on her second 5150 (involuntary) hospitalization now, and this time she has made violent statements, albeit in a rambling incoherent manner that isn't specifically threatening.
> 
> The money couldn't work if she was awarded regular spousal support and I had to pay FT daycare. It would leave me with $400 for utilities, gas, groceries, clothes, etc. At that rate I'd prefer to stay caretaker rather than face homelessness or running away.
> 
> I'm surprised I don't see more money posts in the "considering divorce" section. I watched alimony eat my father alive until he died from cancer.


I'm surprised to, it's been the only reason why I can't pursue divorce now. Spousal support, child support and the disproportionate amount they give them up front kills you.


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## imperfectworld (Jan 18, 2015)

Update. She's back home now, my personal zombie. I'm going to wimp out and stick with the status quo. I guess one way to rationalize it is that the state is "paying" me to look after this woman and keep her from being their problem. This makes me feel better than looking down the barrel of lifetime, debilitating alimony payments.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

A lifetime of misery vs a lifetime of poverty.

Doesn't get much worse than that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

That's sad. On the other hand, she's lucky she has someone look after her... in sickness and in heath and all that.

I assume that when you say that the state is paying you to look after her, you mean that there will be no spousal support?


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

What a miserable lookout.

Go talk with an attorney. See what your financial future would look like. You wouldn't have to give her spousal support forever. If you have 100% custody of the kids, you won't pay her a dime in child support. You'll just have to pay for daycare, which will get cheaper as the kids get older. And you'll find a new wife sooner than later, who can also help with child care. Don't live a miserable life due to a little money.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I don't understand why courts award exes spousal support for a lifetime. What determines this? 

From post #15

Update. She's back home now, my personal zombie. I'm going to wimp out and stick with the status quo. I guess one way to rationalize it is that the state is "paying" me to look after this woman and keep her from being their problem. This makes me feel better than looking down the barrel of *lifetime, debilitating alimony payments.*


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> I don't understand why courts award exes spousal support for a lifetime. What determines this?



Well, that topic always sparks a debate. I don't think both sides of the debate are equally valid, but they are probably felt with the same passion. 

However, in this particular case, if someone becomes essentially disabled, then the usual arguments against (and, many, for) lifetime spousal support don't apply.

Think of it this way. Suppose the spouse instead became permanently comatose (what my generation would call, "a vegetable"). Does someone have a responsibility for a spouse in that kind of situation, or can they just "walk away"?

Then take it back one more step. Suppose the spouse is not comatose, but so psychiatrically disabled (hallucinations, delusions, etc.) that they cannot function at all. Would that responsibility also apply (assuming "yes, there is responsibility" in the comatose situation).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Prodigal said:


> Thanks, Ele, for letting me know that. I'll take my laptop back to my computer guy in town. I mean, it was beyond SLOW. I was tapping on a single letter key multiple times to get anything to show up in my response window!
> 
> Edge totally bombed, but Chrome is working fairly well, although I still have some buffering while typing a response.


Yes, I do have that same problem... TAM is very slow sometimes. It can be impossible to type of post in a post window. What I've been doing is to type out most posts in M Word and then cut/pasting them into a TAM window.

I think that the culprit is the video ad that runs in the top right of the TAM page. Some of the ad videos are eating up so much in resources that it basically freezes TAM. It's terrible.

A lot of users are installing ad blockers. My son is telling me to install one.

Long term, and lifetime, Spousal support is given to people who were in long term marriages and who have no way to support themselves. 

I do not use chrome because every time I do I get a gazillion viruses. I don't know why this happens to me with chrome, but I've come to not trust it at all?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, that topic always sparks a debate. I don't think both sides of the debate are equally valid, but they are probably felt with the same passion.
> 
> However, in this particular case, if someone becomes essentially disabled, then the usual arguments against (and, many, for) lifetime spousal support don't apply.
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining.

I think that 'in sickness and in health' applies only if you wish to remain in the marriage.  The vows don't apply anymore, if one of the spouses wants out of the marriage because he/she is unhappy. (not having to do with the sickness etc of the other spouse) 

It's just surprising that an ex spouse becomes legally required to financially support someone of whom they're not married to, for a lifetime. I understand if the person gave up his/her career to stay home with the kids, so for a finite period of time, it makes sense, but a lifetime of alimony payments? Just seems unjust to place upon on an ex spouse.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

What a tragic situation. I have a friend who is providing support to her addict ex-H. She has custody of their children but he has visitation rights. It's a sad situation.

I suppose someday the children will be able to assist with the burden of caring for this ill woman.

Wishing you and your family peace in this difficult time.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> I think that 'in sickness and in health' applies only if you wish to remain in the marriage.  The vows don't apply anymore, if one of the spouses wants out of the marriage because he/she is unhappy.


I think you are missing the point of the vows. If my H someday becomes ill (dementia runs in his family), I'm not going to leave him just because I'm unhappy. And I will be unhappy if that ever happens. I will put aside my sadness and care for him to his (or my) dying breath, respecting all the love we shared.

That's what the vow means, Deidre. It might not be wise for you to make it unless you can accept ALL that it entails.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

sapientia said:


> I think you are missing the point of the vows. If my H someday becomes ill (dementia runs in his family), I'm not going to leave him just because I'm unhappy. And I will be unhappy if that ever happens. I will put aside my sadness and care for him to his (or my) dying breath, respecting all the love we shared.
> 
> That's what the vow means, Deidre. It might not be wise for you to make it unless you can accept ALL that it entails.


I understand, that is what the vows mean, but if you had remained in an unhappy marriage while your spouse was healthy and not ill, for whatever reasons, and then he became ill, that is more of what I'm talking about. I'm getting the sense that the OP has been unhappy for some time.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

sapientia said:


> I think you are missing the point of the vows. If my H someday becomes ill (dementia runs in his family), I'm not going to leave him just because I'm unhappy. And I will be unhappy if that ever happens. I will put aside my sadness and care for him to his (or my) dying breath, respecting all the love we shared.


Would your feelings change if you discovered he was cheating on you?

It happens.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Yosemite said:


> Would your feelings change if you discovered he was cheating on you?
> 
> It happens.


I'm sure it does, unfortunately. To answer your question, I would need more information. Is his cheating a result of declining cognitive function, per my example? Inability to control impulses can be a result of illness. Was I ignoring signs of dysfunction in our marriage or, perhaps, even contributing to it? Those would all be mitigating factors for me.

If I discovered, out of the blue in our present relationship, that my H was cheating on me, that would definitely be a deal breaker. I have a pretty high opinion of myself, so if this ever came to my attention, I would wish him the best with his new partner and leave.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

imperfectworld said:


> Update. She's back home now, my personal zombie. I'm going to wimp out and stick with the status quo. I guess one way to rationalize it is that the state is "paying" me to look after this woman and keep her from being their problem. This makes me feel better than looking down the barrel of lifetime, debilitating alimony payments.


I was wondering what happened to you. PM me if you want to talk to someone.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Lifetime alimony is a tool used by the courts to keep a spouse from becoming dependent on the state. It only applies in long term marriages and can be prevented if you can prove the payee is able to provide for themselves. 

In this case, with multiple hospitalizations, OP will likely be put on the hook for life. Unless he can get her meds stable and get her working. Then he may have hope.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Acoa said:


> Lifetime alimony is a tool used by the courts to keep a spouse from becoming dependent on the state. It only applies in long term marriages and can be prevented if you can prove the payee is able to provide for themselves.


No small task especially if the nonworking spouse hasn't had a job in years and has no intention of looking for a job because they're satisfied with living off their ex spouse.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

imperfectworld said:


> Severe mental health issues, including hospitalization.


Wow. I'm really sorry to hear that.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

imperfectworld said:


> Update. She's back home now, my personal zombie. I'm going to wimp out and stick with the status quo. I guess one way to rationalize it is that the state is "paying" me to look after this woman and keep her from being their problem. This makes me feel better than looking down the barrel of lifetime, debilitating alimony payments.


What a nightmare. 

Can you have a happy life being her caretaker? Did you talk to an attorney about your specific situation? I think you're probably right but is it possible that the longer you stay married the more alimony you would have to pay should you find you can't take it anymore some day?

An attorney could also tell you what happens if you separate but don't divorce.

Also, I'm sure this is unethical, and possibly illegal - but what if you took a lower paying job for awhile and THEN divorced her? Would that lower Alimony? Of course it would probably go back up as soon as you took a better job.

I'm really sorry for both of you.


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