# when to know a cheater is lying



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Besides the obvious: when they open their mouth.

My ex-wife said and wrote these words while actively still cheating: 

"I've told you the truth, I have no reason to lie to you now that you know I cheated that night. I will never do it again."

Any other examples?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

I often wonder if they are so adept at lying that they end up convincing themselves they are telling the truth, when they clearly aren't.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> Besides the obvious: when they open their mouth.
> 
> My ex-wife said and wrote these words while actively still cheating:
> 
> ...


Dissecting her lie. Notice how she didnt say it only happened once? But the wording was such that that would be the easy conclusion.

The lie allowed her to think that everything until that utterance was covered by her "revelation."

And her intent to never do it again? That could change in a moment or be redefined.

Remember when Bill Clinton got to testify about the word "it" when avoiding stating the obvious of his sexual infidelity?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

If they say, "I swear on my childrens' lives......", you can bet the farm it's a lie.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

Healer said:


> I often wonder if they are so adept at lying that they end up convincing themselves they are telling the truth, when they clearly aren't.


Yes and then they’re deemed “pathological” and the lies and reality – they’re one and the same. Good luck uncovering that with a lie detector.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

I do not think you can, not for me anyway, if they can cheat and deceive you, then i do not think you can ever know for sure.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Interpreted via my WW’s way she lies.

“*I’ve told you the truth* (specific to those things I know you know, but excluding those things I have not confessed to because I haven't technically "told" you therefore I haven't 'lied'), *I have no reason to lie to you *(about that which you already know) *now that you know I cheated that night.* (I will admit I cheated that night, because you know I did... that still excludes what you don’t know and should you discover I will admit only when confronted with irrefutable evidence). *I will never do it *(lie about that night you now know about) *again*.”

So the next discovery when you bring this up:
“I did tell you the truth about that night. I haven’t lied about that night again. I’m sorry you found out about last month (the new discovery). It wasn’t what you asked about the last time we talked. You asked specifically about that one night and I told you the truth. Do you need to talk about this new thing now? When will you get over this? It isn’t helping this marriage that you keep bring up the past to bash me. How long will I have to tolerate you treating me this way!”

Essentially, she (my WW) wouldn’t offer up anything I didn’t already suspect and directly ask about. So whatever I didn’t guess correctly about, she wouldn’t mention. 18 months...


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

Healer said:


> I often wonder if they are so adept at lying that they end up convincing themselves they are telling the truth, when they clearly aren't.


Funny, I was watching a program on t.v the other day, and a professional actually said that a person that always lies a lot can in fact lie so much that they can actually believe it themselves.

You know, I think i can believe that. My husbands brother is always making things up, always coming out with things that are untrue, even my husbands other brother says the same thing.

Been caught out so many times, but he still does it, Only stupid stories to make himself look good, but still a liar.

A friend of ours went to Switzerland, one way ticket told us he was not sure when he would be back. When we brought it up to my husbands brother he told us he saw him in the supermarket going through all the reduced items ( he does this) a week after he left had a 10 minute conversation, he swore by it.....

Well he returned 3 weeks later, and no clue.

A week ago some guy came up to my husband and said " i hear your brother has just brought a caravan with your sister in Spain" ( his brothers work mates told him)........

His sister had, but his brother had nothing to do with it..... His other brother says hes been doing for years.

You know i am actually sure he believes what hes saying..... we don't.

So yes, I agree with you.

P.S sorry for going totally off topic..... Please carry on


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

No more the crap rolls out your mouth again
Haven't changed, your brain is still gelatin
Little whispers circle around your head
Why don't you worry about yourself instead

Who are you? Where ya been? Where ya from?
Gossip burning on the tip of your tongue
You lie so much, you believe yourself
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself

Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not

Before you judge me take a look at you
Didn't you find something better to do?
Point the finger, slow to understand
Arrogance and ignorance, go hand in hand

It's not who you are, it's who you know
Others lives are the basis of your own
Burn your bridges and build them back with wealth
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself

Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not

Ya, who the hell are you?
Ya, ha you

Holier than thou
You are
Holier than thou
You are
You know not, not


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

When I was in false R for over a year, my wife and I went round and round. She would complain that I was always angry (I was), and I would reply, my anger will stop when you stop lying. I would catch her in a lie or bring up something about the A that she kept lying about and I would get angry. I had proof of things, showed them to her and she just kept lying. She started lying about stupid stuff.

During one argument she was really mad and told me that she was tired of my anger. I went through each time we had an argument and showed her how each one started over a lie she told, everyone started because she lied. I said over and over again, when you stop lying I will no longer be angry.

During one calm time I told her I will turn off my anger and she agreed to stop lying. It started within minutes when I asked her about a phone call and she lied.

Frankly, the lies almost became worse then the A's.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Quote from Mrs Philat during the bad times: "I didn't lie, I just didn't tell you everything." When lies of omission are not considered lies, you can never know what piece of truth you're getting.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Thorburn said:


> Frankly, the lies almost became worse then the A's.


My WW was as bad as yours... I’ve met more honest compulsive liars and confidence men than my WW or stories of your own WW. SA WW too...

This is more devious because they warp and spin the facts into some surrealistic impressionist painting of the facts. And you can’t figure out why they are doing this to you or anyone else who ask. It’s beyond just ‘covering up’... it’s spinning a whole new world around them like a protective bubble and see everything through that distortion. 

It’s when you start questioning whether or not they can actually see the world around them with any clarity that you kind of just accept sex and any concept of fidelity or loyalty is probably as messed up as their view of everything else in the world. 

With my WW, it wasn't a series of lies... it was more like she fabricated an entirely fictional world of how it was in the marriage, in these relationship, etc. that only shared some elements with reality. Most of it was entirely in her head about 'how it is' and 'how I am' and 'who they are'... she did this without questions, ignoring anything that was contrary, etc. (cognitive dissonance?) A fabricated reality that was immense and unlike the world I witness. Sort of a world where everyone who loved her, like her family, was somehow out to get her and she'd show us! Fairytale stuff that lacked the wicked step-mother where she was bound and had to return to a life of servitude to us as a slave. 

So understanding ‘why’ and ‘how’ they see the world and what they accept as ‘true & factual’ starts becoming even more important. She'd replaced her mirror and glasses with carnival 'fun house' glass and just accepted this image as 'real'. 

If they can’t see everything around them clearly to base decisions and choices on, there’s no chance to repair.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh, and that’s why I had to break her. I was so offended at my core that she couldn’t see reality I felt an overwhelming urge to shatter every fun house mirror in her head... I stopped caring how the story ended. I just took her fictional book, and created a non-fiction documentary of ‘who she is’. Harsh reality simply correcting her stories so there weren’t the omissions. Doing that... it became clear who was playing the part of the petty, cruel, abusive villain who lacked any morals, ethics, or loyalty to those closest to them.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Great intro to lie dissection, Michzz. (post no.3) This has always been a valuable skill for me, I'd appreciate if you again contributed some more, but I suppose you need another live example to work with.

I'll start with the opposite, to further highlight the point:

You can't tell someone is lying when:

-You aren't listening _carefully_
-You are thinking of what you're gonna say next
-You don't give them lots of conversational space in which to entangle themselves
-You help them lie by actually suggesting the rationalisations to them yourself, "in a bid to understand".
-You aren't watching their face and eyes when they speak
-You aren't listening for the pauses 
-You want to believe the best about everything

You can tell someone is lying when:

-They use a funny way of _phrasing _things. Like in Michzz's analysis.
-They use a particularly unexpected word, or a word that doesn't fit, like it's been rehearsed (non-spontaneous!)
-You notice they repeat certain words and phrases. this is what they want you to take away with you... this is "the core of the influence-oriented message" (also a sign of rehearsal)
-They don't laugh spontaneously (delay) They cry and stop crying suddenly, they are angry and not angry suddenly (manipulating their moods), they are too 'quick' to agree.

OK, that's some things, any others? I must have missed quite a few, I'm sure.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

*The King:*









*"I did not have sexual relations with that women"*


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

"Don't be ridiculous he's not even my type"

"Don't' be ridiculous you and I are in the best place we've been in for years"

"You know after what happened before, I would never put you / us through that again"

:scratchhead:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

My wife is the opposite. She always tells the truth, often brutally.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> My wife is the opposite. She always tells the truth, often brutally.


A blessing and a curse?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Nostromo said:


> A blessing and a curse?


Oh, yes. 

She didn't want to cheat on me, so she told me in advance that she was going to take a lover for a while. Well, that *was* honest, wasn't it?

You know, I just realised how crazy that looks.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Ouch....


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Matt Matt, I've read some of your posts, your wife has BPD correct? I hope this is not too personal [if it is feel free to tell me to jump in a lake] but does she comprehend how "unnatural" that was. I guess I mean does she look back now and go wtf was I thinking.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

"I am 100% certain that I am done with OM"


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Oh, yes.
> 
> She didn't want to cheat on me, so she told me in advance that she was going to take a lover for a while. Well, that *was* honest, wasn't it?
> 
> You know, I just realised how crazy that looks.


Crazy? Maybe. Brutally audacious? Mos def.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Headspin said:


> "Don't be ridiculous he's not even my type"


I confronted with nothing more than my gut and got... "Don't be ridiculous he's married and has children."

Yeah... your right. No one whose married and has children would consider cheating?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Nostromo said:


> Matt Matt, I've read some of your posts, your wife has BPD correct? I hope this is not too personal [if it is feel free to tell me to jump in a lake] but does she comprehend how "unnatural" that was. I guess I mean does she look back now and go wtf was I thinking.


Not BPD. It's an Autistic Spectrum Disorder.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Honestly... I think you just know. It is instinct... Something is off... you just know.


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## roostr (Oct 20, 2012)

1. "It was nothing like that"
2. "It was only one time"
3. "I'm sorry"

Three lies


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Pepper123 said:


> Honestly... I think you just know. It is instinct... Something is off... you just know.



My gut / instinct whatever you want to call it has never ever lied to me


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> When I was in false R for over a year, my wife and I went round and round. She would complain that I was always angry (I was), and I would reply, my anger will stop when you stop lying. I would catch her in a lie or bring up something about the A that she kept lying about and I would get angry. I had proof of things, showed them to her and she just kept lying. She started lying about stupid stuff.
> 
> During one argument she was really mad and told me that she was tired of my anger. I went through each time we had an argument and showed her how each one started over a lie she told, everyone started because she lied. I said over and over again, when you stop lying I will no longer be angry.
> 
> ...


this is one of the reasons i eventually called it quits


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## DumbDude (Jul 27, 2013)

HarryDoyle said:


> *The King:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, and if you listen to it in its full context...

"_I want you to know, let me be clear_" etc.

These are called performatives. Regularly used by politicians to lie by not lying.


"_I want you to know, I did not have sexual relations_" - it's true, he wants us to know that!


My STBXW is up there with the best of liars. I had to listen to lies for months until the threat of a poly... she finally owned up... to what she thinks I know. Who knows what the truth is...?


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