# 30 yrs of marriage- is it too late?



## carol10 (May 9, 2016)

Hi everyone. I am a woman who has just completed 31 yrs of marriage and have 4 beautiful grown up kids ranging from 17 through to 27yrs. I have a 12 yr difference with my husband, he being the older one. I have had a very rocky marriage and in hind sight, feel that I married the wrong person for me. We have little in common and over the years tried to keep it together for the family. I tried to end it a few times but the kids cried and freaked out including my husband who did not want a breakup. To keep things simple, I have felt no connection or bond with my husband, I feel distant and whilst I care for him as the father of my children and having a life together, I feel detached and honestly cannot find any passion of longing for intimacy with him. We are starting counselling together because I feel unable to get through to him. He seems hell bent on winning a discussion or argument at all costs. I am emotionally exhausted. What I would like to know is, is it too late for separation? I am scared of losing respect from my children who will blame me, and then what of our finances? home etc. my kids are living at home trying to save etc. God why does life have to get so hard? I seem to be in this marriage because the alternative is difficult and I would cause such hurt and upheaval upon my family. I am tired of kidding myself. I know solutions are not easy, but at the end of the day I feel I deserve some happiness. But at what cost?? so confused !!


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't think that the number of years together makes it too late; it all depends on the situation that you're in and whether or not you will be better off in the marriage or out of it.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

The simple answer is No, it is not too late.


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## Kraquin (May 6, 2016)

I know several couples still together or divorced in your situation. It is not an envious situation to be in because the children, though married and off on their own sometimes miserable marriages, manipulate their parents into staying together or are manipulated themselves into preferring one parent by one vindictive parent or the other.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

Can't add much except to offer my thoughts and sympathy. It's hard to be in this situation, and even harder with kids. We've been married almost 15 years with two little kids, and I feel like you - burnt out, no feelings for spouse, no desire for intimacy, etc. I'm only staying for the kids, as I want to minimize their exposure to their mom's laziness and immaturity.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Anything is better than coming home to a life you do not want. You'll be amazed at how good it feels and why you didn't do it sooner.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I agree with OliviaG, the age difference is simply a reason or justification you are looking at because it is one of the tangible ones to you up front in why you have not grown along the same path in your 31 years.

The what is you have not grown as one where it matters most, the why and how lies in the outcome of the counseling you are in and each others ability to set aside the ego and be humble. If your husband tries to make it a point scoring system, he will simply win all the points and fully lose you. Do you think he understands how close he is to this already? It sounds as if you have placed yourself there before but there was no validation from your family for your needs and you couldn't validate yourself.

You are already separated in mind and spirit... physical will make little difference, the next step is in reality divorce because physical separation will most assuredly complete this.

People often claim to have little in common because they quit seeking to have shared experiences, one simply says there was no time, no effort, no passion, no enthusiasm... thus I want more and while it may come with effort, I can guarantee you it will not come without both of you stepping outside your circles of comfort. You cannot do this alone, and alone is what you see in the mirror each day.

I mentioned self-validation earlier... listening to you in your short introduction, now is the time to begin that. Each has their own path, what works for one will not for another but for your own growth and sanity you should begin the path of believing in yourself. If you are spiritual, begin there... not with chains that bind you to a doctrine expectation but ones that free you. Step out and begin small steps of loving the thing things that make you lightly smile, as your strength comes and your steps begin to lengthen, so will your smiles.

The hard thing is it may not come as quickly as you like... true growth never does. Remember to start small and measure in smiles you give yourself every morning, when you feel negative about where you are, think warm and kind things about the person you are and want to be.

The people around you should notice this... and if they don't, it's fine also because learning to love yourself is not for them, it's for you. Once you have built your strength, the path before you will be ready to be taken no matter where it leads you.

At this moment in time, walking alone is just as important, if not more important, than walking together... together can come later when the sun is shining a little more in your soul.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

carol10 said:


> We are starting counselling together because I feel unable to get through to him. He seems hell bent on winning a discussion or argument at all costs. I am emotionally exhausted.


Can you elaborate? What EXACTLY is the problem? 

1) Why do you have no passion? Is he over weight, too old, not romantic, etc. 

2) Get through to him about what? What do you feel he is unable to understand?

3) What are you arguing about and what point is he making that you don't agree with?

You are clearly checked out. You feel nothing for him sexually. If you want him to change.

It's NOT going to happen. He is who he is and 30 years should have proven that to you. 

What can he do (if anything) to make you love him again (not like a father but like a husband)? Do you even know?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

there are always two side to a story.

are your expectations of what a real marriage looks like realistic?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> are your expectations of what a real marriage looks like realistic?


Every time I read about a potential WAW, this is the first question to pop in my head.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> there are always two side to a story.
> 
> are your expectations of what a real marriage looks like realistic?


I would very much love to hear his side of the issues. After all, he: 


Fathered your children. 
I'm going to assume he was a good father.
Provided at least 50% of the financial support of the family, or more?
Was not abusive physically or emotionally, but may have been difficult to get along with?

I hope that you don't want to move on because his usefulness is now over and putting in the effort isn't worth it to you any more now that many of the "family related goals" have been accomplished.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

> He seems hell bent on winning a discussion or argument at all costs.


It appears hour H has not learned to fight fair. He also appears to not realize you are NOT the enemy. You are his W and should be address as such. What are the counselors answers to the unfair fighting tactics used by your H? The win at all costs? Does you H listen to you and understand before he opens up the guns?

BTW, it is never too late.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

All 4 of your kids are still living at home to 'save'. Kick the older ones out. You're not doing them any favors. They have to grow up sometime. Marriage counseling might work if both parties are honest. If one is lying, it's a waste of time and money. 

You knew he was 12 years older when you married him - that excuse won't fly. He may have used the age difference to bully you when you were first married, but you're middle-aged now and don't have to put up with that nonsense. If counseling doesn't work, you can assess your options and your kids' opinions do not figure into it. They aren't married to him. Good luck.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Every time I read about a potential WAW, this is the first question to pop in my head.


Meh. What IS realistic, really? Does realistic mean put up with anything? I mean, realistic is where whatever either party is willing to put up with. If I were in OP's shoes, I'd have picked a knock down drag out fight to see if it could be fixed or end it years ago, the whining of my kids be damned. 

My ex was similar to the way OP describes her DH. Not sure if the internet portrays the way things really are. He would fight tooth and nail to be RIGHT. MAKING me see why to feel the way I did was WRONG was tantamount to caring in his mind. It was push, push, push for his way. Or it was the highway. But then when I said, ok, then highway, suddenly it was the gas lighting and their weird blame. In order to keep me. Because you see, my leaving would have made him WRONG. And he always knew how I felt better than I did because he was RIGHT.

If this is how the OP's husband thinks, there is no way to get through that. There just isn't.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The words "I have just completed 31 years of marriage" are interesting. Not "I have endured" or "I have happily" or "I have by the grace of God". It sounds more like an assignment. Mission accomplished and now I can do what I want to do. It definitely reeks of indifference.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

It's pretty easy to talk yourself into emotionally detaching. I did it last week, and a few months ago and a year ago. I'll probably do it again. What I'm having trouble with is figuring out what happens next. An apartment and a job. Meals alone, movies alone. I have all of that now, Why rock the boat?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Zanne said:


> The problem is living this way with an unassuming spouse who feels like a rug has been pulled from beneath - although some spouses chose to ignore the issues when they were confronted with them. Hopefully counseling will help her relate her concerns. If her husband is not willing to take her seriously, then he will be another "victim" of a WAW.


Do you REALLY think it's fair tolerate something for _*30*_ yrs then be like, "I'm done!"

If her expectations are reasonable then that's one thing. If she's expecting him to turn into Don Juan then the fault lies with her.

If she's had issue about his core character:

1) She should of addressed them 30 yrs ago or found someone else

2) Not expect him to change because like I said before you CAN NOT change people.

That's why I want her to elaborate so we can figure out the appropriate advise. 

All she's given us is typical WAW vagueness. If she wants a new man she should just file now and not waste anymore of this guy's time.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

carol10 said:


> I feel I *deserve* some happiness. But at what cost?? so confused !!


As in you *deserve* a partner that makes you happy?

There is only one person out there that can make you happy, and yes this is the person you should be with and spending every day of your life together. This should be the person you first see every morning you wake up and before going to bed. It is never too late to find this person and make the most out of every day you have. 

Where do you find this person? You simply look in the mirror!

If you go through life blaming others for your unhappiness and feeling that you need someone else to make you happy, then you will have problems. You are however entitled to find someone that enjoys you sharing your happiness with them. So if you are a happy person and no one around you enjoys the happiness you try to share with them, then YES, it is never too late to leave.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

for richer or poorer in sickness and health or until I decide I'm done! which might coincide with our children being grown. and you having to pay alimony the rest of your life. 

any man who gets married today is just taking a huge risk of being with a woman who at any time might decide Hmmm, think I'm out of here.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> there are always two side to a story.
> 
> are your expectations of what a real marriage looks like realistic?


Side 1: The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence:










Side 2: I can't handle my own yard anymore it is out of control:


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I suppose it would be nice to get some of the details other than "win an arguement at all costs."

I so agree with taking the focus off of him and putting it back on yourself. What would you be doing different if he were out of the picture?


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Zanne said:


> And any woman who gets married today is taking a risk of being with *a man who just wants another mother while he's happy to exist on porn, ESPN, beer and junk food*; not necessarily in that order.


 @Zanne you got that all wrong!

Porn is usually combined with chicken wings and beer, afterwards it is onto video games, slim jims and red bull. Once we are all worn out and tweaked at the same time, THEN we need another mother to help take care of us while we watch sports and drool. 

*The only thing a wife needs to do to break that vicious cycle and restore a healthy marriage is to FOMO us husbands with some snapchat!*


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Zanne said:


> And any woman who gets married today is taking a risk of being with a man who just wants another mother while he's happy to exist on porn, ESPN, beer and junk food; not necessarily in that order.
> 
> We can discuss (or complain about) gender generalizations all day, but will it lead us to a solution for the OP?


trying to point out that marriage vows are really just feel good words they really don't mean $hit once the marriage hits rocky times and All long term successful marriages go through rocky times.

In an ideal world the rocky time makes the good times worth it.

the op came here with some pretty normal complains that most if not all marriages go through or experience. and they are valid complaints. But what we are not hearing is the husbands side of things I wonder what his resentments towards her are?

my advice is to is to sit him down and hash it out. Its going to take a lot of fortitude and self reflection you have to own your share of the baggage. 

If you make it through you have a real marriage.

the balls in your court. you are the one who is looking for answers. Are you going to give your husband a chance at playing or are you going to take your ball and go home.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

If I had had to 'tolerate' something for 30 years, I wouldn't be 'I'm done' - I would be 'stick a fork in me' gd it, can't you see I'm done?


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## carol10 (May 9, 2016)

Firstly thank you to everyone who responded. Ok, I will attempt to answer some questions. Please understand that in 30yrs of marriage a lot has happened, good and bad. I am firstly not unappreciative of my husbands positive contribution in bringing up wonderful morally sound children, he has been a responsible father. He had laxed in spending any time with them growing up and doing fatherly things. For this, I have taken this together time with my kids. eg going to sports carnivals, taking them to movies, etc. I have felt 'sorry' for my children growing up without bonding time, but what is done is done. They seem ok. He has mostly been responsible for having good financial stability. We are lucky. What Im trying to say is that from very early in the marriage we fought a lot. He was very dominating and wanted to win an argument or situation at all costs. He was judgmental and everything had to be done according to his idealology. I was young, not very experienced and put my feelings aside and eventually got sick of arguing over petty nonsense. Eg cant have the small dog in the house for longer than 1 hr because its a dog and they belong outside. We shall eat at 6pm because im hungry and well Im sure everyone else wouldn't mind (except you) stop being difficult. the list goes on...This has led over the years to us not bonding as a couple, me losing all respect for him and being miserable. I tried so hard to keep the peace, I was and still am a good person who as a mother and wife completely forfill all my duties and obligations to do the best for our family. I have worked and am also for the last 6 yrs a full time carer for my mother of 86yrs who has dementia. She lives with us and I am soley responsible for her and our family of 8.
Basicallt over the last 4 yrs my husband has attempted and has improved his behaviour a fair bit. He watches his health and is not overweight. He asks me if I need help is kind, and is trying. He had realised that we are and have been at breaking point, as I have said to him, and he wants to fix the marriage. I don't know though if I want this as well. I feel drained, and feel a great disconnect that I wonder if I am able after so many years of hurt to rekindle love and passion with him. I feel that 30yrs of marriage is enough and I am quite happy to go it alone, so to speak. The one thing that stops me walking out are my children. They would blame me for initiating this and I would be seen as the mum who broke her family apart. As mentioned all of us live together in one house. To destroy the security of our home is at the moment too high a price. I am trying to be realistic and look at things from all angles. But, hell, I hate my life and predicament at the moment. I just want out, and need to be the happy, person I once was. I am miserable, lost interest in a lot of things that long ago made me happy. Pretending to be happy is a production I now play to keep my family secure and happy. when they see me miserable they all become sad for me and the situation. My husband often will say, your moods affect your family around you. Is this what you want? Im between a rock and a hard place. Its hard when you want to make things better, but deep down you cant keep up the attempt and you slide back down to depression and a sense of kidding yourself. I am hoping that counselling will help. I am a strong person and will keep trying to work things out if need be. I am trying also to be realistic and am relying on the counsellor to tell it like it is. Maybe that will trigger something in me to enable us to decide what we really want out of all this. It is a long and confusing road where you have to be fair and put your hand up, so to speak, and own your role in all this... I will keep everyone posted and once again thanks and please keep comments coming. I appreciate it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yes it is too late. You took vows. You should have taken a longer time courting and dating him before agreeing to marry. So you got married to a man you were not compatible with. Then to make matters worse you went and had four kids with him. 

Tough. 

Your family stability is more important than your own needs. Find a way to be happy in and with yourself and let your husband live his life and be content with what you have. Many of our grandparents and parents stayed married even though they fell out of love with their spouses. They stayed married because they believed in the sanctity and institution of marriage and family. They didn't bail on their obligations just because they got bored and got the urge to wander.


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## carol10 (May 9, 2016)

I feel the need to comment of my husbands perspective on all this. My husband agrees that we have had some bad fights in the past. He agrees that for most part he was a bastard or putting it nicely, not enough understanding and low on manners. He knows he made mistakes. We have spoken about things till the roosters started crowing. He says we need to draw a line and put all the **** behind us, and move on, and try (both of us) to be good to one another and try to have a positive interaction and if we need to discuss issues to do so, and get them resolved. All these things are commonsense and sound wonderful. MY PROBLEM is, that I am exhausted and after so much crap, and emotional hurt, I don't know if I want to be with him anymore. I feel no love for him or respect. I don't enjoy his company or seek it out anymore. Whilst I don't hate him, I have lost interest in him as a husband and wonder if it is possible to develop feelings that should bond a husband and wife.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Yes it is too late. You took vows. You should have taken a longer time courting and dating him before agreeing to marry. So you got married to a man you were not compatible with. Then to make matters worse you went and had four kids with him.
> 
> Tough.
> 
> Your family stability is more important than your own needs. Find a way to be happy in and with yourself and let your husband live his life and be content with what you have. Many of our grandparents and parents stayed married even though they fell out of love with their spouses. They stayed married because they believed in the sanctity and institution of marriage and family. They didn't bail on their obligations just because they got bored and got the urge to wander.



Wow, would you give this same advice to a man whose wife was denying him sex for 30 years??

No, you'd be telling him to get out asap!!!

OP do realize that there is a huge double standard in some of the advice that you will receive here.


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## carol10 (May 9, 2016)

Yes, I understand, but at what cost? am I unworthy of having a happy life? Do I sacrifice my needs to keep my children happy? - and for how long? What if it cost me my health and emotional wellbeing? Are you saying that just because I got married young and was not experienced in life and men, that this is the price I now should pay? Remember I am still married, I have stuck it out for 31 yrs. AND I AM STILL DEVOTED TO MY CHILDRENS WELLBEING. ( ages from 17 through to 27yrs) - They are not babes anymore... Surely, marriage is indeed what you make of it. But you have to be realistic and understand that sometimes two people are not compatable.no matter how hard the journey. Im still hanging in there!! - BTW are you married and for how long??


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> OP do realize that there is a huge double standard in some of the advice that you will receive here.


Nonsense Olivia. If the relationship was sexless from day one and a man married a woman knowing she was LD and spent 30 years with her, I personally, would be saying "too bad" suck it up to him too.

Give men more credit. We aren't all sexist dogs...


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## carol10 (May 9, 2016)

Hey sorry for posting perhaps in the wrong section! My comments are directed to well, Im sure you can work it out. No offence to anyone with my posts, I need to master this lol


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Okay so he's an ass. That can be changed if he wants it badly enough. 

Does he abuse you physically or emotionally, or does he just refuse to back down in an argument? What do you guys argue about? 

If you are tired then go on a vacation by yourself or with a lady friend. Take time for yourself and away fro husband and kids and go find some thing that lights your fire....pottery, cooking classes, art classes, birdwatching, biking....get out and find some things to do outside of your marriage and family that bring you joy. It is not your husband's job to make you happy. It never was and never will be. That is your job. And there are many things you can do to be happy without your husband's input, and without leaving him or divorcing. 

If your husband was a cheater or an abuser, I would advocate leaving him in a heartbeat. But your only real complaint is that he doesn't back down in an argument. You know, some women would find that appealing in a man. He must have had some positive attributes or you would not have had sex with him to produce four kids. He must have done some things right to keep you from leaving those times you wanted to leave. 

You are hitting middle age. You are most likely in a MLC. It is perfectly normal to feel like you could have done better, that you should have zigged instead of zagged, that you could have done so many things differently. Everyone feels that way! Even people in happy marriages feel that way. Well, your restlessness and feelings of wanting more are no reason to go and throw away a 30+ years marriage. Your feelings are temporary. Marriage is supposed to transcend feelings and phases and be something larger than oneself.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> Give men more credit. We aren't all sexist dogs...


I never said all men were sexist dogs; I certainly don't think that they are. 

But that doesn't change the fact that there are some double standards in advice given here at times.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Wow, would you give this same advice to a man whose wife was denying him sex for 30 years??
> 
> No, you'd be telling him to get out asap!!!
> 
> OP do realize that there is a huge double standard in some of the advice that you will receive here.


Where was her husband denying her sex? They have four kids. Doesn't it take sex to do that?

All I could see is that he likes to win arguments and it pisses her off. 

There are no double standards here. I asked her in what way he has abused or neglected her.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

carol10 said:


> MY PROBLEM is, that I am exhausted and after so much crap, and emotional hurt, I don't know if I want to be with him anymore. I feel no love for him or respect. I don't enjoy his company or seek it out anymore.


If that's how you feel then stop wasting another minute of this guy's time and file for divorce. Give him the chance to find another woman to be happy with and grow old with. You should of left him years ago like you attempted too but what's done is done. He doesn't deserve a checkout wife anymore than you deserve to be miserable.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I never said all men were sexist dogs; I certainly don't think that they are.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that there are some double standards in advice given here at times.


Well your comment seemed to be directed towards one gender and I agree some people on TAM do have double standards. However, the hypocrisy I've seen has come from both genders.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Okay so he's an ass. That can be changed if he wants it badly enough.
> 
> Does he abuse you physically or emotionally, or does he just refuse to back down in an argument? What do you guys argue about?
> 
> ...


Yes, from the (stereotypical) male perspective, cheating is a reason to throw away a 30 year marriage. Not only is it a reason, but here on TAM it is almost unanimously insisted on being the *only* reasonable course of action. But apparently if a guy has been miserable to you and not met your emotional needs for 30 years you should just suck it up; it's not his responsibility to meet your emotional needs. You should take a pottery class or something and just get over it...lol..


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

carol10 said:


> I feel the need to comment of my husbands perspective on all this. My husband agrees that we have had some bad fights in the past. He agrees that for most part he was a bastard or putting it nicely, not enough understanding and low on manners. He knows he made mistakes. We have spoken about things till the roosters started crowing. He says we need to draw a line and put all the **** behind us, and move on, and try (both of us) to be good to one another and try to have a positive interaction and if we need to discuss issues to do so, and get them resolved. All these things are commonsense and sound wonderful. MY PROBLEM is, that I am exhausted and after so much crap, and emotional hurt, I don't know if I want to be with him anymore. I feel no love for him or respect. I don't enjoy his company or seek it out anymore. Whilst I don't hate him, I have lost interest in him as a husband and wonder if it is possible to develop feelings that should bond a husband and wife.


You can fall back in love with him if you try. You and he can rebuild your relationship if you both try. Marriage counseling, marriage coaching....there are a lot of ways you can work towards building a better relationship without throwing away your marriage. 

You are talking yourself into a divorce because you see it as an easy way out. 

Let me tell you something Carol, and you listen good...

There is nothing quick or easy or convenient about divorce. Divorce is the absolute worse thing in the world...the absolute worst. You better think long and hard about what you are contemplating, because if your husband is as tough in a fight as you say he is, lady you have not seen his worst yet. I guarantee you he will fight you tooth and nail in a divorce and he won't pull any punches. It will be the worst, ugliest thing you will ever go through. 

Think, think, think....

Have you and your husband ever gone to marriage counseling. Have you two even tried to work on the marriage, above and beyond just talking about it?


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> Well your comment seemed to be directed towards one gender and I agree some people on TAM do have double standards. However, the hypocrisy I've seen has come from both genders.


It seemed to? Must be because you recognize that a double standard exists?


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Where was her husband denying her sex? They have four kids. Doesn't it take sex to do that?
> 
> All I could see is that he likes to win arguments and it pisses her off.
> 
> There are no double standards here. I asked her in what way he has abused or neglected her.


I'm saying that you seem to feel that cheating or sexlessness are reasons to leave a marriage, but deny the fact that an emotionally abusive or neglectful husband is a good reason. I find that to be a huge double standard. 

And it does not escape me that you are now trying to scare and guilt the OP into staying in her marriage.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> You can fall back in love with him if you try. You and he can rebuild your relationship if you both try. Marriage counseling, marriage coaching....there are a lot of ways you can work towards building a better relationship without throwing away your marriage.
> 
> You are talking yourself into a divorce because you see it as an easy way out.
> 
> ...



Now, would you give this same advice to a man who was married to a serial cheater and had 4 children with her?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Yes, from the (stereotypical) male perspective, cheating is a reason to throw away a 30 year marriage. Not only is it a reason, but here on TAM it is almost unanimously insisted on being the *only* reasonable course of action. But apparently if a guy has been miserable to you and not met your emotional needs for 30 years you should just suck it up; it's not his responsibility to meet your emotional needs. You should take a pottery class or something and just get over it...lol..


You've been getting one side of the story. How is his being good at arguing making her miserable? I have asked her to list his good attributes and she has not done so...other than he has been a good provider and good dad to her kids. 

This is a pro marriage site. I believe in preserving marriages and not throwing them away because of fleeting feelings and moods. Abuse and adultery are whole other ball games, and if those things happen then yeah...I will be the first to say D. 

If this woman is tired she needs to take time off and do things for herself instead of waiting on her husband and kids. She need to find interests and activities that fulfill her. 

There are lots of ways she can find happiness and contentment outside of her husband, without divorcing him or having an affair.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Now, would you give this same advice to a man who was married to a serial cheater and had 4 children with her?


No I wouldn't. 

But we are not talking about adultery here. She has not said he ever cheated on her. She has never said he has abused her. 

Just that she's not happy. Well I'm trying to figure out what it is about this man and her marriage that makes her unhappy. Because if she can identify her biggest beefs, maybe they can take it to counseling and deal with it.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> You've been getting one side of the story. How is his being good at arguing making her miserable? I have asked her to list his good attributes and she has not done so...other than he has been a good provider and good dad to her kids.
> 
> This is a pro marriage site. I believe in preserving marriages and not throwing them away because of fleeting feelings and moods. Abuse and adultery are whole other ball games, and if those things happen then yeah...I will be the first to say D.
> 
> ...



If this is a pro-marriage site, then shouldn't you be advocating for reconciliation after an affair? Or is it that you divorced after dealing with an affair and so doing whatever you did is absolutely justified, whether it ends a marriage or not. Because you shouldn't be expected to live an unhappy life with mind-movies and such. Why didn't you just get your mind off of it by going away on a fishing trip or taking a pottery class? You know, to preserve your marriage?


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> I'm saying that you seem to feel that cheating or sexlessness are reasons to leave a marriage, but deny the fact that an emotionally abusive or neglectful husband is a good reason. I find that to be a huge double standard.
> 
> And it does not escape me that you are now trying to scare and guilt the OP into staying in her marriage.


Where did she say he abuses her?


----------



## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Where did she say he abuses her?



I don't think she used the word abuse. But if you read her posts, you can see that he has been emotionally neglectful of her for 30 years, which is abusive (emotionally).


----------



## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

BTW @bandit.45 , you have not answered her question. She asked you about your own marriage. I think she's trying to reconcile your advice within the context of how you actually live your life.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Yes it is too late. You took vows. You should have taken a longer time courting and dating him before agreeing to marry. So you got married to a man you were not compatible with. Then to make matters worse you went and had four kids with him.
> 
> Tough.
> 
> Your family stability is more important than your own needs.


Huh? The family IS stable. All the kids have been raised. This is not a life sentence. 

IMO OP owes it to H to at least give it a try through counselling. I think though that she waited too long before giving it a final try and thus this is probably a lost cause. That is a shame but it is the truth.

Many of us are trying to get back that spark after 10, 20, 30 years of marriage (23 here) but I do not know how many succeed.

Carol, how old are you? Are your 50 or are you 60ish? To me that might matter, if 50 or early fifties, you still can have a good life going elsewhere. If closer 60 or older, the security and stability of marriage might be more attractive, even if the love is gone.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> It seemed to? Must be because you recognize that a double standard exists?


No, because I recognize you seem to believe that.

No offense but I personally find far and away more women here offering double standards then men do. There was a thread here a few months ago literally dedicated to man hating hypocrisy. The misandry was utterly shameless.

Perhaps we both work harder to not view the world through skewed lenses. PM me if you want to discuss it further. I don't want to derail carol's thread anymore.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> BTW @bandit.45 , you have not answered her question. She asked you about your own marriage. I think she's trying to reconcile your advice within the context of how you actually live your life.


He seems to be a hypocrite, because this was one of his posts on his tread in 2013

"I'm tired of living for other people. Time to live for myself for a change."

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/119346-embracing-singlehood.html


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> If this is a pro-marriage site, then shouldn't you be advocating for reconciliation after an affair? Or is it that you divorced after dealing with an affair and so doing whatever you did is absolutely justified, whether it ends a marriage or not. Because you shouldn't be expected to live an unhappy life with mind-movies and such. Why didn't you just get your mind off of it by going away on a fishing trip or taking a pottery class? You know, to preserve your marriage?


Physical or emotional abuse and adultery are intentional attacks against the spouse. They involve mental and emotional violence, lying, manipulation, intention, tearing down another person's self respect, dignity and sense of stability. 

All Carol has told us is that she and her husband argue a lot and he cannot stand losing an argument. I see nowhere where she has said he has violated her trust, lied to her, hit her, threatened her, made her feel unsafe in her own home....

What I'm saying is that I think if they can both find a middle ground, go to counseling and work on their marriage, then she should try that avenue first before just walking off. 

And I don't detract what I said. She should have never married this man without getting to know him first. I will bet a bag of M&Ms that she rushed into this marriage. 

Did you rush into this marriage Carol?


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> BTW @bandit.45 , you have not answered her question. She asked you about your own marriage. I think she's trying to reconcile your advice within the context of how you actually live your life.


Married 21 years. I was cheated on two years into it. Reconciled with her, and eighteen years later she cheated again. I divorced her.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> And I don't detract what I said. She should have never married this man without getting to know him first. I will bet a bag of M&Ms that she rushed into this marriage.
> 
> Did you rush into this marriage Carol?


You could apply this exact same logic to anyone who has been a victim of adultery. But you choose not to see this. Amazing.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> He seems to be a hypocrite, because this was one of his posts on his tread in 2013
> 
> "I'm tired of living for other people. Time to live for myself for a change."


I'm not a hypocrite. I fought for my marriage the first time. And when I was cheated on a second time I decided to move on. Nothing spectacular. 

I am a bachelor now and quite happy. That doesn't disqualify me from having an opinion on this matter. 

I think she should fight for her marriage. 30 years is an accomplishment that should not be thrown away just because she feels bad or she feels like she is in a rut.


----------



## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> No offense but I personally find far and away more women here offering double standards then men do. There was a thread here a few months ago literally dedicated to man hating hypocrisy. The misandry was utterly shameless.


I don't know about that, and I'm not sure what relevance it has to this thread. I can't see any relevance at all.

Would rather not argue about it in any case; it doesn't matter to me. I call women on it when I see it and I call men on it when I see it, according to the circumstance.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> You could apply this exact same logic to anyone who has been a victim of adultery. But you choose not to see this. Amazing.


See what?


----------



## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> See what?


Lol...


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> You could apply this exact same logic to anyone who has been a victim of adultery. But you choose not to see this. Amazing.


Agree. He was cheated on early but still stayed. But he is using the same logic on OP that she married and then had 4 kids, so she is stuck.

He was not stuck though. He left. 

There are other marriage-busters besides infidelity.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> If this is a pro-marriage site, then shouldn't you be advocating for reconciliation after an affair? Or is it that you divorced after dealing with an affair and so doing whatever you did is absolutely justified, whether it ends a marriage or not. Because you shouldn't be expected to live an unhappy life with mind-movies and such. Why didn't you just get your mind off of it by going away on a fishing trip or taking a pottery class? You know, to preserve your marriage?


Affairs are blatant, intentional attacks on the spouse and the marriage. Affairs are selfish, cruel and disrespectful. That is not what I see happening here. 

I see two people who were in love once, who got caught up in raising kids, never watered and tended the relationship, and now they are empty nesters staring at each other saying "who are you?." They let the marriage go stale. That doesn't mean it is dead. 

This is an opportunity for her to get to know her husband again and rebuild the relationship. I think they can if they work at it. She has never said they have ever sat down and made a plan to do so.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> Agree. He was cheated on early but still stayed. But he is using the same logic on OP that she married and then had 4 kids, so she is stuck.
> 
> He was not stuck though. He left.
> 
> There are other marriage-busters besides infidelity.


Yes, but the worst part is that recognizing her internal conflict, her vulnerability to it and feelings of guilt about possibly ending the marriage, he hits her with this:



bandit.45 said:


> You are talking yourself into a divorce because you see it as an easy way out.
> 
> Let me tell you something Carol, and you listen good...
> 
> ...


Meanwhile, he divorced after 21 years, and is very happy, according to him. 

But there is no double-standard..lol..


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I never said all men were sexist dogs; I certainly don't think that they are.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that there are some double standards in advice given here at times.


Yes and that goes both ways with the gender bash nonsense here. I don't think this just a gender based problem however. If she isn't happy she should leave so he can find someone who makes him happy and vs versa. It must be exhausting chasing someone who doesn't want to be there. 

I think what most are asking here is are these issues workable or not and make that decision BEFORE you walk away. If she built her fantasy of how her new single life will be she may be disappointed in the outcome


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Agree. He was cheated on early but still stayed. But he is using the same logic on OP that she married and then had 4 kids, so she is stuck.
> 
> He was not stuck though. He left.
> 
> There are other marriage-busters besides infidelity.


The whole point is WAS HE LIKE THAT BEFORE she married him.

That's why bandit asked if she took the time to get to know him.

If he changed then I do not fault carol. If he's always been that way or she didn't bother to get to know him first then I do.

No one is 'forced" to stay married but if it's the latter she should suck it up because he's done nothing wrong except be the person he always was. 

And you can not change people.

What does infidelity have to do with it? No one says, "Hey just so you know, I'm a shameless cheat. Still want to get married."


----------



## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Affairs are blatant, intentional attacks on the spouse and the marriage. Affairs are selfish, cruel and disrespectful. That is not what I see happening here.
> 
> I see two people who were in love once, who got caught up in raising kids, never watered and tended the relationship, and now they are empty nesters staring at each other saying "who are you?." They let the marriage go stale. That doesn't mean it is dead.
> 
> This is an opportunity for her to get to know her husband again and rebuild the relationship. I think they can if they work at it. She has never said they have ever sat down and made a plan to do so.


I get it. What hurts you is bad, and you shouldn't be expected to put up with it and live with an unhappy situation. What hurts you is worth breaking up a family and a long-term marriage over. Divorce was the right decision for you and you are very happy being single.

Conversely, what hurts the OP is not so bad. She should work on her marriage and learn to live with it because divorce is the worst thing in the world and will wreck her family, all for her own selfishness. And she should be very, very afraid of the consequences.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> Agree. He was cheated on early but still stayed. But he is using the same logic on OP that she married and then had 4 kids, so she is stuck.
> 
> He was not stuck though. He left.
> 
> There are other marriage-busters besides infidelity.


I'm trying to offer the alternative perspective. Marriage is not just an agreement. It is a institution not to be thrown away lightly just because one person isn't happy. 

I ended my marriage not because I wasn't happy. For eighteen years my ex made me very happy. I was in love with her when she cheated the second time. I chose to leave an abusive situation and to preserve my self worth. 

This is not the case with Carol. 

I'm telling her to try to become happy in herself and not go rely on her husband to make her happy. She can do that without divorcing him. That's all I'm saying. 

Okay, what if she divorces him? There is no guarantee her next man will make her any happier. 

She needs to learn to make herself happy. If she does that she may just discover that her marriage is not as bad as she thought it was, and that there are still aspects to her husband that she can build on and learn to adore him again...and he her.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> The whole point is WAS HE LIKE THAT BEFORE she married him.
> 
> That's why bandit asked if she took the time to get to know him.
> 
> ...


No, but she's being told she must not have gotten to know him well enough before marrying him, and so now she has to live with the consequences. You could say the same thing about a BS; he must not have gotten to know the character of his wife before he married her so he should have to live with the consequences. See the double standard?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Now, would you give this same advice to a man who was married to a serial cheater and had 4 children with her?


Are you suggesting that Carol is a serial cheater? Where did you get that idea from?

Or are you thread jacking to score a point?

Either way you have disrespected Carol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> I get it. What hurts you is bad, and you shouldn't be expected to put up with it and live with an unhappy situation. What hurts you is worth breaking up a family and a long-term marriage over. Divorce was the right decision for you and you are very happy being single.
> 
> Conversely, what hurts the OP is not so bad. She should work on her marriage and learn to live with it because divorce is the worst thing in the world and will wreck her family, all for her own selfishness. And she should be very, very afraid of the consequences.


No what I'm saying is that she shouldn't just throw a 30 year marriage way because she is going through a hard time. A lot of what I said in my first post was to wake her up and get her attention, since all of you had jumped on the divorce bandwagon. 

I see no legal or religious or ethical reason that would justify her divorcing. None. She fell out of love with her husband. Okay I get it. It happens to women all the time. They bail. It happens all the time...

I'm just trying to keep her from bailing and throwing a way a 30+ year marriage that has had no physical or emotional abuse, no adultery, no deception or lying that I can see from her post. She's just "unhappy". Well sorry, to me that's no a good reason to divorce.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I'm trying to offer the alternative perspective. Marriage is not just an agreement. It is a institution not to be thrown away lightly just because one person isn't happy.
> 
> I ended my marriage not because I wasn't happy. For eighteen years my ex made me very happy. I was in love with her when she cheated the second time. I chose to leave an abusive situation and to preserve my self worth.
> 
> This is not the case with Carol.


Right, because Carol is not allowed to preserve her self-worth. She's supposed to sacrifice her happiness because her husband hasn't cheated. And cheating is the only reason to leave a marriage. You even left a happy marriage over cheating. She's contemplating leaving a miserable marriage with no infidelity.



bandit.45 said:


> I'm telling her to try to become happy in herself and not go rely on her husband to make her happy. She can do that without divorcing him. That's all I'm saying.
> 
> Okay, what if she divorces him? There is no guarantee her next man will make her any happier.
> 
> She needs to learn to make herself happy.


If she should make herself happy, why do you assume she needs another man to make her happy. Why would another man even enter into her thinking on the matter?

Why couldn't you make yourself happy after your wife cheated the second time?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> No, but she's being told she must not have gotten to know him well enough before marrying him, and so now she has to live with the consequences. You could say the same thing about a BS; he must not have gotten to know the character of his wife before he married her so he should have to live with the consequences. See the double standard?


No, I don't. I dated my ex for 3.5 yrs and I still got cheating on after marriage.

So all the, "getting to know" didn't do sh!t because cheats are pathological liars. 

This guy never lied about who he was and she still married him. Sooooo....


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Are you suggesting that Carol is a serial cheater? Where did you get that idea from?
> 
> Or are you thread jacking to score a point?
> 
> ...


Are you serious? You think I'm suggesting that Carol is a serial cheater?!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> No, but she's being told she must not have gotten to know him well enough before marrying him, and so now she has to live with the consequences. You could say the same thing about a BS; he must not have gotten to know the character of his wife before he married her so he should have to live with the consequences. See the double standard?


No it is not a double standard because infidelity is a very different animal from just plain relationship neglect, for the reasons I stated earlier. 

To me, adultery IS a form of abuse. The worst kind of abuse. Far worse than physical abuse. 

They are totally different. It is disingenuous of you to try to argue they are the same.


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## carol10 (May 9, 2016)

a need to clarify; I/ we have hashed it out for years. I want to get things to improve, I am trying but, how do you deal with a husband who nods and shows that he is listening but really just goes through a head in the sand moment and lacks the empathy gene. Loves to give advice about YOU, but mention his flaws and its time for judge and jury show. Also, I do value marriage, I have been and am married for over 30yrs, take a walk in my shoes please. Remember, I am not only dealing with my marriage problems, I am dealing with my 86 yrs old mother with dementia, looking after her 24/7. Taking her and picking her up from day care 5 days a week for a few hrs so then, I can run around and do my chores before picking her up and planning dinner for 8 people. Doing and cleaning chores for 8 people and trying to find the time to stay happy and have enough energy for lovemaking. Many people who are judging me on this forum have no idea what my life and hardships are like. Yes, I do get some help from my family, but, I fight the battles in my head alone. I have to constantly keep myself in check to keep my family happy and stable. It is very true that a good wife and mother make for a happy family. I have to deal with this on every level of family life and the challenges families face occasionally. I am a positive person and try to focus on the good in my life.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> This guy never lied about who he was and she still married him.


How do you know this? Maybe he was as sweet as he could be to her before they got married. Very attentive and easy to get along with? And then after the first child came he became emotionally withdrawn? We don't know.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I'm trying to offer the alternative perspective. Marriage is not just an agreement. It is a institution not to be thrown away lightly just because one person isn't happy.
> 
> I ended my marriage not because I wasn't happy. For eighteen years my ex made me very happy. I was in love with her when she cheated the second time. I chose to leave an abusive situation and to preserve my self worth.
> 
> ...


Infidelity is not the only form of abusive. You don't know Carol's case, so don't say this is not the case with her. 

Why would anyone want to stay in a marriage unhappy? You are just implying she should do her own thing regardless of her husband or any love. 

Well, same could have been said about you. Just ignore the cheating and make yourself happy. It works in your case too, by your logic. You put your "self worth" above the institution. That is hypocritical. 

BTW, I do not see any of this as thread-jacking as it is all relevant to OP.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> No it is not a double standard because infidelity is a very different animal from just plain relationship neglect, for the reasons I stated earlier.
> 
> To me, adultery IS a form of abuse. The worst kind of abuse. Far worse than physical abuse.
> 
> They are totally different. It is disingenuous of you to try to argue they are the same.


It's good that you've made your bias crystal clear. Makes it easier for the OP to see where your advice is coming from.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Yes, but the worst part is that recognizing her internal conflict, her vulnerability to it and feelings of guilt about possibly ending the marriage, he hits her with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My divorce was the absolute worse experience I have ever gone through. Depression, illness, suicidal thoughts....I went through it all. I would rather have my leg blown off with a deer rifle tha go through D again. 

I would spare her that pain. 

All I am asking her to do is give counseling a chance. She should demand her husband go with her and work to save the relationship. If he refuses, and is unwilling to change, then she can walk away and divorce knowing she fought for it and gave it her all. 

Maybe she already has done all that...I dunno.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> It's good that you've made your bias crystal clear. Makes it easier for the OP to see where your advice is coming from.


Well, smarmy and disrespectful as you are, I will just say that I disagree with you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Are you serious? You think I'm suggesting that Carol is a serial cheater?!


That was the implication of what you said. 

Either that or it was a blatant and very unhelpful attempt to derail the thread to foment a pointless argument with another poster. 

Either way what you did was incredibly rude to Carol and utterly disrespectful to Carol who came here for advice and clarification not to see how well some of us can argue about off topic subjects.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> My divorce was the absolute worse experience I have ever gone through. Depression, illness, suicidal thoughts....I went through it all. I would rather have my leg blown off with a deer rifle tha go through D again.
> 
> I would spare her that pain.
> 
> ...



Carol said this in her first post:




carol10 said:


> We are starting counselling together because I feel unable to get through to him.


----------



## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> That was the implication of what you said.
> 
> Either that or it was a blatant and very unhelpful attempt to derail the thread to foment a pointless argument with another poster.
> 
> ...


Wrong Matt, but I won't derail the thread trying to make you understand.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Wrong Matt, but I won't derail the thread trying to make you understand.


Oh I understand you all too well. It is all in what you have written.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Right, because Carol is not allowed to preserve her self-worth. She's supposed to sacrifice her happiness because her husband hasn't cheated. And cheating is the only reason to leave a marriage. You even left a happy marriage over cheating. She's contemplating leaving a miserable marriage with no infidelity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again I say, adultery is a far different animal from relationship neglect. 
For you to attempt to equate them tells me you have never been cheated on in a marriage. Well, it is a whole different ballgame...believe me. 

And I don't think she needs another adman to make her happy. But in many cases, adultery does occur when a spouse is unhappy and sees no way out of a marriage. I'm not saying she would cheat, only that women in her position have delved into cheating to make themselves happy, and it never works. 

I don't want yo see her unhappy, but why does her husband have to supply that for her? Why can't she do things for herself, within the parameters of the marriage, to make herself happy?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Carol said this in her first post:


Well then I hope it works for them.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Carol I would recommend counselling. Not necessarily to save your marriage -it would be great if you could- but if not, to see how you can both work out an exit strategy that doesn't leave one or both of you hurting very badly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> Again I say, adultery is a far different animal from relationship neglect.
> For you to attempt to equate them tells me you have never been cheated on in a marriage. Well, it is a whole different ballgame...believe me.
> ?


No I have not been cheated on. Quite the opposite. But it is presumptuous to say that relationship neglect is not on par with infidelity. This tells me you have never experienced decades of neglect. In your case you were happy for 18 years even after the first cheating. So it must not have been all bad. Not sure if OP can say the same. 



bandit.45 said:


> To me, adultery IS a form of abuse. The worst kind of abuse. Far worse than physical abuse.
> 
> They are totally different. It is disingenuous of you to try to argue they are the same.


Huh? I do acknowledge that you said "To me" but to say emotional abuse (infidelity) is far worse than physical abuse leaves me speechless. 

I get it man. You are hurting and were hurt deeply by the cheating. I have no personal reference to understand that. But OP can be hurting just as much as you were/are.

I agree with you that one last attempt at IC/MC should be done and that they BOTH need to go into that with open minds to try.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> To me, adultery IS a form of abuse. The worst kind of abuse. Far worse than physical abuse.



This is a little hard to swallow, as @blueinbr pointed out. I guess you can't understand what you haven't experienced @bandit.45 . Otherwise, how can you explain what you wrote, above?


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Zanne said:


> The 2x4/shock approach can shame people and scare them away from TAM. JMHO.


Very true. I had a thread on this exact topic, which I had to delete to protect one person. 

OP, we are not judging you at all. We all have different approaches to offering you advice.

Please stay here, listen, post on your thread or post on other threads.

This is a great website and you will find many people going through something similar.

Stay strong.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

carol10 said:


> I can run around and do my chores before picking her up and planning dinner for* 8 people*. Doing and cleaning chores for *8 people* and trying to find the time to stay happy and have enough energy for lovemaking.


Carol, you must be a remarkable person. 0

Changing your situation always starts with changing yourself. You are no doubt burned out.

Why are you caring for EIGHT people (you, H, 4 kids, mom - still one short)? Other than your mom, the other SIX are more than capable of contributing to the household and doing MORE than their fair share. If not, they need to get out (except for you, H, mom and 17 yo). Why are you making dinner for a 27 yo? Or cleaning up after a 27 yo?

Your view of your marriage and your happiness would be different if you were not cook and maid to a very large household. You need "me time" not "them time". I bet if you relieved yourself of that burden you might find yourself happier. And it should be easier to that than divorce. 

Please consider this. :|


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Zanne said:


> @bandit.45The 2x4/shock approach can shame people and scare them away from TAM. JMHO.


Yeah, the shaming and blaming of the OP in bandit's post(s) is what got me all fired up, especially when she appears to be trying to save the marriage already and feeling very vulnerable to feelings of shame and guilt as it is.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

carol10 said:


> a need to clarify; I/ we have hashed it out for years. I want to get things to improve, I am trying but, how do you deal with a husband who nods and shows that he is listening but really just goes through a head in the sand moment and lacks the empathy gene. Loves to give advice about YOU, but mention his flaws and its time for judge and jury show. Also, I do value marriage, I have been and am married for over 30yrs, take a walk in my shoes please. Remember, I am not only dealing with my marriage problems, I am dealing with my 86 yrs old mother with dementia, looking after her 24/7. Taking her and picking her up from day care 5 days a week for a few hrs so then, I can run around and do my chores before picking her up and planning dinner for 8 people. Doing and cleaning chores for 8 people and trying to find the time to stay happy and have enough energy for lovemaking. Many people who are judging me on this forum have no idea what my life and hardships are like. Yes, I do get some help from my family, but, I fight the battles in my head alone. I have to constantly keep myself in check to keep my family happy and stable. It is very true that a good wife and mother make for a happy family. I have to deal with this on every level of family life and the challenges families face occasionally. I am a positive person and try to focus on the good in my life.


Only King Solomon could could come up with an equitable solution for *YOU* and your *HUSBAND.* Notice I mentioned both of you. There ARE two of you in this marriage and both of you have put in the time and effort into this marriage.

You know why King Solomon could come up with a solution?...He is an outsider with no stake in the game...no steak in the grill of your char-coaled marriage.

Let's face it, there is no clear cut [good for all] solution. 

You are in a very conflicted place. There are too many factors and too many irons in the fire to make a swift jump. You do not sound like a self-centered and selfish person, OP. 

You have a conscience....you have a conscience and therein is your problem.....WRONG....therein is your strength and your value.

You want to do the right thing....for everyone involved and that is noble. You therefore, must do the math and crunch the possibilities of what the end solution MUST BE.

For you? Be as happy as you can be without alienating everyone in your life sphere.

Come up with a plan and communicate it with everyone involved. Lay out an outline and spout it to your husband and children and family. Let them slowly digest the tough-to-chew gristle. You may have to fine tune this plan as time marches forward.

The Plan:

1) Tell all that you are going to separate with your husband this year.
2) The separation is indeterminate and involves no other man. This is important....no other man can be involved during this separation.
3) You are going to live in an apartment or wherever.
4) You figure out your expenses and finance. You may need to get a job if you are not working. Your budget may be tight.
5) Be amicable with all especially with your husband. Expect strong push-back from all.
6) Do not cave in to any one else's demands. You are not threatening your husband with this separation...you are getting your life back into some semblance of normalcy.
7) This is a trial separation, not a divorce. It may lead to a divorce and that is something you must consider. You may like your new life and may consider another partner after a divorce but keep your high standards in place. If you cheat and date other men [while separated] you lose the high ground and others will never forgive you.
8) Divorce first, don't cheat first. 
9) Starting over is OK as long as you can love yourself and your actions that brings this into play.
10) When the dust settles and the separation feels good and divorce follows, treat everyone fairly for life. Those that deserve it, of course!
11) The separation may cause your husband to "see the light" and change his ways. You may get together again. You have options. Thirty years together is hard to forget and makes it hard to part ways. But you also know the score of this discordant symposium.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Her husband is controlling as indicated by him essentially telling her to put on her happy face because others can pick up on her moods. Holy Hell, what a way to live. If three adult children would get out of the house then she would only have to pretend in front of 1. Who wants a pretend marriage? And way to go with blindsiding the children.

The way I count it is 4 children, Mom, you and husband - who is the 8th person in the house? 

BTW, for a healthy, happy marriage it takes two. Please don't pretend you feel something when you don't.

Marriage is not a substitute for slavery. You do NOT have to stay if your soul is being crushed. You don't have to stay, period.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

carol10 said:


> a need to clarify; I/ we have hashed it out for years. I want to get things to improve, I am trying but, how do you deal with a husband who nods and shows that he is listening but really just goes through a head in the sand moment and lacks the empathy gene. Loves to give advice about YOU, but mention his flaws and its time for judge and jury show. Also, I do value marriage, I have been and am married for over 30yrs, take a walk in my shoes please. Remember, I am not only dealing with my marriage problems, I am dealing with my 86 yrs old mother with dementia, looking after her 24/7. Taking her and picking her up from day care 5 days a week for a few hrs so then, I can run around and do my chores before picking her up and planning dinner for 8 people. Doing and cleaning chores for 8 people and trying to find the time to stay happy and have enough energy for lovemaking. Many people who are judging me on this forum have no idea what my life and hardships are like. Yes, I do get some help from my family, but, I fight the battles in my head alone. I have to constantly keep myself in check to keep my family happy and stable. It is very true that a good wife and mother make for a happy family. I have to deal with this on every level of family life and the challenges families face occasionally. I am a positive person and try to focus on the good in my life.


Hi Carol, thank you.

This is where understanding big rocks and little rocks may help.

Big rocks right now are the caring for your mother and keeping her safe, and you. What is your big rock? Many of the things I shared in my first post to you.

Little rocks are the cooking and cleaning for 8... this is neither healthy nor required for you and while you say you get some help, it sounds like not nearly enough because you are challenged to keep it balanced enough to make a difference in your life. The stability you offer leaves nothing for yourself, and I understand this because I was the same way, I was too busy fixing everyone else's problems and made it my duty. When I stressed about it and complained to my wife she told me I was sounding like a martyr, and she was right, I did sound like that because I placed myself in the middle of every problem as a solution to be depended on.

My wife is also low on the empathy scale where for a period in my life I had fully cast it aside and offered none, you can only imagine the fall-out from those discussions when they were less than kind. Oh the horrible disagreements we had at that time, it was defeating. She would not go to counseling with me, it was my own to work through but once I realized I could not change her outlook and understood why I felt failed many times trying, I had to do the adjusting, had to do the navigating, had to do the growing until I found the harmony in myself to understand the path through the disagreements (notice I didn't say around) so that I didn't trip over the obstacles and could finish the walk "stubbed-toe free". 

I now wear open-toe sandals where steel-toe boots had been required.

I could never judge your life nor you family, to do so would be unfair to us both. If you wish, I will continue to share the lessons I have learned though some very difficult times in my own life and family here and perhaps some will be useful for you.

Please consider the rocks in your path and where you choose to walk.

I do wish you peace as you prepare for your own journey.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I think some of you have drank a bit too much of the kool-aid and lost your arms- length objectivity. These are posters I usually admire, too. Maybe some should take a break from Carol's post so it doesn't go further OT. This has nothing to do with infidelity. 

I think from what Carol's written, she's frustrated with the brick wall she has met in her husband when trying to employ solutions to keep the marriage intact. 

It takes the effort of 2, not 1, to save a marriage.... Or have some of you forgotten that or disagree? 

Carol, it's easy for me to tell you not to worry so much about what your children think, but I have none. I do think that as a parent, standing up for yourself (even when kids have a problem with it) is still a meaningful lesson for them. They are used to seeing you acquiesce, so why shouldn't they be upset when you do something uncharacteristic? Think about what you would tell any of them, we're they in the same situation as you. 

If you've really exhausted all manner of getting your husband engaged in reconnecting, and he refuses, then I'd say maybe show him this post. Often people vent their hearts here but don't actually say the necessary words to their spouse. Just a suggestion.

If you haven't tried everything, then I'd agree with some posters that you should try, so you can at least feel assured that you did everything you could.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Wrong Matt, but I won't derail the thread trying to make you understand.


IMHO, you already have derailed the thread.

Why not give all the crosstalk a rest? 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Sounds like typical guy when it comes to arguing. We use logic and flow charts. Don't you get it? LOL But this will also require BOTH of you to change as it's not all him. If certain topics are triggers, just avoid those conversations.

I divorced my wife after 22 years together. We were close in age and married young. Daughter went off to college and we stopped focusing on each other and stopped "dating" and the passion fizzled. My exW was much more a coach potato and me active but we did have shared interests.

Looking back now there is some regret we did not try harder to rekindle the marriage and some of the arguments were so petty it's almost laughable to think about.

You need to break the funk. And one night on the town together isn't it.

Do the things you like to do together. Your marriage is not lost and trust me it's no easy picnic to just start dating again.

It requires work and effort to get things back on track. Don't look for blame, etc.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Interesting discussion here, but Carol you have not given us enough information here: how old are you ? Why did you marry your husband who was over a decade older than you (I believe?)?

Here is why I ask: 

Lets suppose (and I am not saying that this is the case with you) that a woman sees an older man who is 

- more confident than the men her age;
- earning a lot more and more stable than the men her age;
- good looking and fit (at the time);
- forceful and dominating (attractive at the time);
- even being pursued by other attractive women (some of whom are his age);

and she decides she wants him because of all that he is without thinking it through (and this is normal - not everyone has the benefit of hindsight going into a marriage) and marries him.

Then, after 30+ years of marriage, she decides he is 

- old;
- domineering;
- insensitive;
- boring because he is not as active;
- not bad looking but not as good looking as men her own age;
- got a lower sex rank than her (she is now being pursued or could be pursued by men her own age who appear more attractive);

when in actual fact he hasn't changed that much from when she married him, is this fair to him ? We know she would say it isn't fair to her to live in a loveless marriage, but is this fair to him ? 

Bandit and others have already said that you went into this marriage kind of knowing him for what he was (is) and now are tired of it.

So here is what I would say:

Make sure that your husband knows that you have no RESPECT for him (and certainly are not attracted to him or feel any love for him). If he definitely knows this, then I am hoping that if he is a man, his pride and self respect will not let him stay with you, because I believe he should definitely split with you immediately.

Certainly, you should worry about your own well being and happiness (just as you did when you decided to marry him all those years ago) and do what you need to make you happy. 

But let him go - he doesn't really deserve to not be respected at the very least after all these years (just as you don't deserve to be disrespected either). For me the lack of respect would be the killer - I could work on lack of love by trying to up my game and improve my behaviour but to lose respect would be the end - I wouldn't bother with working on the romance. I cannot see that he has done anything to cause you to lose respect for him.

Don't stay for the kids because they will pick up on your misery and will be miserable themselves (even if they don't say it).

Let him go and break up already. Don't keep him hoping and guessing. And maybe even send him here.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Every time I read about a potential WAW, this is the first question to pop in my head.


_Potential_ WAW? She walked YEARS ago.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

carol10 said:


> Firstly thank you to everyone who responded. Ok, I will attempt to answer some questions. Please understand that in 30yrs of marriage a lot has happened, good and bad. I am firstly not unappreciative of my husbands positive contribution in bringing up wonderful morally sound children, he has been a responsible father. He had laxed in spending any time with them growing up and doing fatherly things. For this, I have taken this together time with my kids. eg going to sports carnivals, taking them to movies, etc. I have felt 'sorry' for my children growing up without bonding time, but what is done is done. They seem ok. He has mostly been responsible for having good financial stability. We are lucky. What Im trying to say is that from very early in the marriage we fought a lot. He was very dominating and wanted to win an argument or situation at all costs. He was judgmental and everything had to be done according to his idealology. I was young, not very experienced and put my feelings aside and eventually got sick of arguing over petty nonsense. Eg cant have the small dog in the house for longer than 1 hr because its a dog and they belong outside. We shall eat at 6pm because im hungry and well Im sure everyone else wouldn't mind (except you) stop being difficult. the list goes on...This has led over the years to us not bonding as a couple, me losing all respect for him and being miserable. I tried so hard to keep the peace, I was and still am a good person who as a mother and wife completely forfill all my duties and obligations to do the best for our family. I have worked and am also for the last 6 yrs a full time carer for my mother of 86yrs who has dementia. She lives with us and I am soley responsible for her and our family of 8.
> Basicallt over the last 4 yrs my husband has attempted and has improved his behaviour a fair bit. He watches his health and is not overweight. He asks me if I need help is kind, and is trying. He had realised that we are and have been at breaking point, as I have said to him, and he wants to fix the marriage. I don't know though if I want this as well. I feel drained, and feel a great disconnect that I wonder if I am able after so many years of hurt to rekindle love and passion with him. I feel that 30yrs of marriage is enough and I am quite happy to go it alone, so to speak. The one thing that stops me walking out are my children. They would blame me for initiating this and I would be seen as the mum who broke her family apart. As mentioned all of us live together in one house. To destroy the security of our home is at the moment too high a price. I am trying to be realistic and look at things from all angles. But, hell, I hate my life and predicament at the moment. I just want out, and need to be the happy, person I once was. I am miserable, lost interest in a lot of things that long ago made me happy. Pretending to be happy is a production I now play to keep my family secure and happy. when they see me miserable they all become sad for me and the situation. My husband often will say, your moods affect your family around you. Is this what you want? Im between a rock and a hard place. Its hard when you want to make things better, but deep down you cant keep up the attempt and you slide back down to depression and a sense of kidding yourself. I am hoping that counselling will help. I am a strong person and will keep trying to work things out if need be. I am trying also to be realistic and am relying on the counsellor to tell it like it is. Maybe that will trigger something in me to enable us to decide what we really want out of all this. It is a long and confusing road where you have to be fair and put your hand up, so to speak, and own your role in all this... I will keep everyone posted and once again thanks and please keep comments coming. I appreciate it.


I say it again: *Potential* WAW? This is a perfect case study.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I'm done with this thread. 8 pages and it will get longer. Talking about THIS INDIVIDUAL WAW!! When we should be doing a case study in how it happens.

Leave him. FOR HIM. You took away 20+ years of this man's life. You committed him to a lifetime alone. Let him find someone who can love him through his old age. 

But be sure to leave him a full description of why you left. You can fix him for his NEXT wife. It's ALWAYS too late by the time you walk ladies. You might want to try fixing it earlier. But then again, I'm just a bitter push-away-husband. There's nothing you can learn from me. Keep moving.

And your daughters will continue to marry us and not know how to deal with it when it happens. And your sons will join us having ZERO clue it will probably happen, with zero skills to work through it. 

And wives will continue to walk. By the MILLIONS.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> _Potential_ WAW? She walked YEARS ago.


Well I prefaced with potential because she hasn't divorced him yet but is considering it. And you are right, she checked out emotionally years ago. In her mind, he is nothing more than a bad college roommate that she tolerates because he helps pay the rent.




MachoMcCoy said:


> But be sure to leave him a full description of why you left. You can fix him for his NEXT wife. It's ALWAYS too late by the time you walk ladies. You might want to try fixing it earlier. But then again, I'm just a bitter push-away-husband. There's nothing you can learn from me. Keep moving.
> 
> And your daughters will continue to marry us and not know how to deal with it when it happens. And your sons will join us having ZERO clue it will probably happen, with zero skills to work through it.
> 
> And wives will continue to walk. By the MILLIONS.


While my exwife was a serial cheat she also fit the pattern of a WAW. Instead of leaving the marriage, she decided to blow it up by cheating. In any event, their are red flags. It is disingenuous to say we have ZERO clue. 

They leave clues all over the place, the problem us the men HAVE NO IDEA how to interpret them. We do not think like women. Women think they are being CLEAR AS DAY by leaving a bunch of bvllsh!t nonverbal clues and expecting a man to understand her needs.

There are of course men who understand how to make a woman happy, but a significant portion NEED TO BE TAUGHT how to treat a wife and meet her "gender specific needs". I say this because the vast majority of walkaways are women. I'm sorry if that sounds terrible but its absolutely true. I also believe women NEED TO BE TAUGHT to communicate to their husbands ON A LEVEL THEY WILL COMPREHEND.

Are some men a-holes who just don't care? Sure. Are some women needy wrenchs who are completely unreasonable? Sure. But the majority are good people who want to make each other happy but simply don't know how. Lack of communication is the number one reason a marriage breaks down.

"His Needs, Her Needs" should be required reading before spouses are allowed to sign a marriage certificate. Would save a lot of people years of frustration and heartbreak for naught.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Macho, while I agree that people lose passion for each other and the staleness can be tough to reverse, I don't see this as a hopeless case.

The 12 year age difference as people get older is playing into this as well. He's "old" to her.

The fact that she is looking for advice to save the marriage and not just complaining however makes it different. She's not completely done. But the H will need to wake up to what's going on as he probably has a sense of "she's not going anywhere".

No doubt there is a gap that needs to be closed but this is not the catch all done deal WAW. 


MachoMcCoy said:


> _Potential_ WAW? She walked YEARS ago.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

jdawg2015 said:


> But the H will need to wake up to what's going on as he probably has a sense of "she's not going anywhere".


Right, she said that already.



carol10 said:


> We are starting counselling together because I feel unable to get through to him. He seems hell bent on winning a discussion or argument at all costs.


And if anyone wants to do a little research on "how to get through to him..." or getting him to "wake up", start by snuggling up with your ipad or Kindle and pulling up "other posts by MachoMcCoy". Start from the beginning and work yourself up to current posts. Somewhere in all of that mess is the key to a 50% reduction in divorce rates within a decade. 

So I'm on record. Anybody else? How do we "get through to him"? How do we get him to "wake up"? Many of you agree it can be done.. 

This is what we're working with right now. Tell me how we fix it.

HIM:


carol10 said:


> He seems hell bent on winning a discussion or argument at all costs.


HER:


carol10 said:


> I am emotionally exhausted.


She's "getting ready to" walk. He's still trying to win arguments. 

Alright now. Bring these kids back together. Go!


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Sorry. I was re-reading my post and realized I was being "Machocentric" when I made it. I get it, you all may not. Although I'm still not going to give you the answer (that won't help you in the long run), I'll give you a hint:



carol10 said:


> We have little in common and over the years tried to keep it together for the family. I tried to end it a few times but the kids cried and freaked out including my husband who did not want a breakup.


What do each and every one of those "few times" she "tried to end it" have in common?

Kind of a riddle. But if you get it, you get it.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> 2) Not expect him to change because like I said before you CAN NOT change people.


One last post then I'll let you all give your advice to this individual WAW. I need to move on to other threads on this and other forums to continue in my quest to change the world.

Not to pick on BD. I think he gets it better than most, but too many people believe this. It is untrue. I can ALMOST guarantee I can change him. And if I can't, then you've been gone for 30 years anyhow. Just make it official and leave. 

Yes, some husbands can be given the presentation perfectly and still not get it. They are just *******s down to the core and can't be changed. He may be one. But it all starts with "getting through to him" to find out which one he is.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Not to pick on BD. I think he gets it better than most, but too many people believe this. It is untrue. I can ALMOST guarantee I can change him. And if I can't, then you've been gone for 30 years anyhow. Just make it official and leave.


Let me expand on what I mean because I use this abbreviated version of this phrase a lot.

Can people change? ABSOULTELY! I'm certainly not the same person I was when I first joined TAM. But YOU cannot change anybody. The only person you can truly control is yourself. This person has to WANT to change themselves. 

Sure, you can try to force someone to change, and they can pretend to for a while due to coercion, but you do not control their heart and mind and eventually pretending to be someone you are not will wear thin with them. This is VERY typical in fake reconciliations.

In a way it's no different than a drug addict. They have to want to stop, usually this only happens when they hit rock bottom. No amount of prodding or enabling of their behavior will fix them. In fact, usually it only makes things worse and pushes them underground. 

Like the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Zanne said:


> Dang, forgot about the video games!!


And pizza


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> This person has to WANT to change themselves.


Exactly. I'm going to damage your reputation further by saying we agree again. That's what my posts are all about in this thread. Making the person WANT TO change. And I am sure I can make this OP WANT TO change.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Exactly. I'm going to damage your reputation further by saying we agree again. That's what my posts are all about in this thread. Making the person WANT TO change. And I am sure I can make this OP WANT TO change.


We have a difference of opinion but you're entitled to yours. You can't make them want to change. I do not agree with that statement. THEY have to self reflect and want to change. You can help them change if they choose too but you have no power to alter their state of mind.

Unless you know hypnosis....


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Carol, I am right thee in your shoes lady. I have been with my husband 27 years, married 24. Our too was rocky from the start and with time I too lost all hope, all interest and I emotionally detached. I did not want to break of my family, I was afraid family would not understand. We tried counseling but it didn't help. Our issues were dealing with addiction and emotional unavailable....husband showed more interest in other women then he did in me and his solution in his head was I was to accept him the way he was. he was one to spend every waking minute at home playing games (in his mid 50's) on his cell phone or watching his favorite programs on the computer. He never asked me to do things with me, it was always me trying to get him involved and engaged. I finally grew tired of it and started doing things by myself and quit asking him to join me and he seemed content to spend all the time by himself. I eventually started sleeping in another room and he insisted that I come back to the marital bed. I told him that our marriage was way beyond me hopping in bed with him and things being all right, that we needed serious counseling. he said he would not go to any more counseling, he was done reading books which he actually never read beyond 2 chapters of any book I suggested.

I got to the point that I could not even stand to be around this man. I saw him as extremely selfish and unwilling to work together for the better of the marriage. I felt starved of love and an emotional connections and I realized with time that this was not going to ever come from him and no matter how much I concentrated on me, my career, my friends and family I was very lonely. the person I had married as a partner was not a partner to me, we were roommates and even that was not comfortable. I thought if we could be friends for the sake of the children and keeping the marriage together then it would be okay. We were taking separate vacations and really not spending time together. He went on a cruise with his sisters and dad and did not even want to talk about it when he got back.

Then I suspected his addiction issues had maybe never gone away and I checked on his computer and sure enough, this was the last of Jan of this year. For me that was enough and the end, I could not do this anymore. I contacted a counselor and we have met weekly since. I did not know how I was going to tell my kids and family and I worried about it quite a bit, I was afraid that they would not want to have a relationship with me. I thought my husband was going to be furious. I contacted an attorney and I started the initial paperwork without anyone knowing, not even my friends at first and I waited. Our youngest is 19 and in college and I did not want to disrupt her college studies with her parents divorcing so I waited until she was done with her finals. I then told my husband and my children. I was shocked by their responses. All 3 of my daughters (35, 30, 19) understood, they agreed that I could not live like this. The oldest cried and the two older girls said they didn't want us to divorce but that they would be okay. The youngest, who I was concerned the most about said, "I am happy for you mom." We have talked since as I wondered why she had a different reaction than her older sisters and she said she felt it was because she saw more than they did. My husband has been very accepting too and working with me to get everything finalized.

If you stay for the sake of the children you are not only hurting yourself but you are hurting them as well, they see it. They are seeing an example of a marriage of two people who are not in love and you are teaching your daughters that it is okay to be unhappy and to continue to stay miserably in a marriage that is not working.

All of the emotions of this has hit me in waves but I take that wave and realize that it is okay to feel the hurt or want things to be how they used to be, or whatever feeling that I am dealing with at the time and at the same time I know that I cannot stay. The relationship has been very one-sided and we have no emotional connection. 

I have been a stay at home mom that raised 5 children, his sons also lived with us full time. I taught piano lessons from the house to work around the kids' schedules and have not worked outside of the home since 1994 so I am having to regear to be able to support myself but I am doing it.

If the counseling helps, great. If you can actually get from this what you want, wonderful. But the two of you have habits and ruts and layers of emotional hurt that will take 2 people working together to weed thru to make a difference. Only you can decide if that can truly happen.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> We have a difference of opinion but you're entitled to yours. You can't make them want to change. I do not agree with that statement. THEY have to self reflect and want to change. You can help them change if they choose too but you have no power to alter their state of mind.
> 
> Unless you know hypnosis....


I agree with this completely. He was absolutely WRECKED when I left. But he simply could not reconcile that HE would have to engender caring changes in himself rather than bludgeoning me into agreeing with him. It was not even a matter of WANTING. It was a matter of capacity. His brain could not take in the idea of changing anything other than his argument for how right he was.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

carol10 said:


> I feel the need to comment of my husbands perspective on all this. My husband agrees that we have had some bad fights in the past. He agrees that for most part he was a bastard or putting it nicely, not enough understanding and low on manners. He knows he made mistakes. We have spoken about things till the roosters started crowing. He says we need to draw a line and put all the **** behind us, and move on, and try (both of us) to be good to one another and try to have a positive interaction and if we need to discuss issues to do so, and get them resolved. All these things are commonsense and sound wonderful. MY PROBLEM is, that I am exhausted and after so much crap, and emotional hurt, I don't know if I want to be with him anymore. I feel no love for him or respect. I don't enjoy his company or seek it out anymore. Whilst I don't hate him, I have lost interest in him as a husband and wonder if it is possible to develop feelings that should bond a husband and wife.


So your husband feels you just have to talk about and that is enough and at that point all your troubles should be behind you and you can move forward. All well and fine but if behaviors and patterns re,main the same you will never feel you have closure from the old and moving forward with the new will not be likely. My husband thought the same thing. let's just talk once and we done with it, let's move forward but then things didn't change. I was waiting for him to do the things I needed of him and he was stuck in his ways of life. If there are issues, or behavior being addressed then there needs to be serious steps made to make a difference or it will remain the same.

From what you have said in your post it sounds like your husband is very controlling and for him to stop being controlling I think will be very difficult for his to do. You have all learned to live with this control but it has not been healthy for any of you.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I'm done with this thread. 8 pages and it will get longer. Talking about THIS INDIVIDUAL WAW!! When we should be doing a case study in how it happens.
> 
> Leave him. FOR HIM. You took away 20+ years of this man's life. You committed him to a lifetime alone. Let him find someone who can love him through his old age.
> 
> ...


MachoMcCoy, when you indicate to people here that they are a "walk away wife" you are pointing blame. Blame to the woman who has chosen to leave her husband and your statements make it look like the man was undeserving, a real good man, something us ladies just could not accept. These women, myself included, would not be walking out of the marriage had we not tried everything we could to make the situation better in the relationship. Difficulties rise, we try to talk and many times those words fall on deaf ears or if they are heard the wife is ignored or made to feel bad about saying anything. In many households the man feels he only has the word of the house and everyone is to obey. When a woman wants to make a difference for herself and her children in these types of relationships they are met with opposition. Opposition that these ladies learn also to deal with even though it does not feel good and is not healthy for the relationship. With time these women learn to cope but nothing is mutually giving in the relationship, these women have been out in their place, they know after awhile that speaking and trying to work thru this is not going to do any to good. these ladies go thru various stages of hurt, fear, and denial. When the pain finally gets to be so much they finally either resign to their needs not being met and find other ways to cope whether it be thru religion, alcohol abuse or reinventing themselves while others realize they have to save themselves and get out of something that they have been beating their head a against a brick wall for too long.

Your posts come across as the man who is hurt and felt left unjustifiably. It really does not matter why your wife left, she made a choice regardless. You might be a good guy but that doesn't mean your wife could not leave you. My first husband cheated and decided he wanted to be with his lover. Had I done anything to make him decided this? We actually were close and I loved him alot, he called me his angel. It killed me when he left and I had to learn to live with that choice. 

Each of us can benefit by looking at our own actions in our relationships but I will say it takes 2 people working together to make a marriage work.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Macho, why don't you write your book, put it up for sale and stop beating people over the head with the chapters. You think you have all the answers but for some reason you are unwilling to share them. Either you have them or you don't. Perhaps, you could start with how to determine how to talk to your husband so he understands. Stop blaming the wife because her husband is so hard to communicate with that he winds up blindsided. There is no need for anyone to parse the word 'is'.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

carol10 said:


> a need to clarify; I/ we have hashed it out for years. I want to get things to improve, I am trying but, how do you deal with a husband who nods and shows that he is listening but really just goes through a head in the sand moment and lacks the empathy gene. Loves to give advice about YOU, but mention his flaws and its time for judge and jury show. Also, I do value marriage, I have been and am married for over 30yrs, take a walk in my shoes please. Remember, I am not only dealing with my marriage problems, I am dealing with my 86 yrs old mother with dementia, looking after her 24/7. Taking her and picking her up from day care 5 days a week for a few hrs so then, I can run around and do my chores before picking her up and planning dinner for 8 people. Doing and cleaning chores for 8 people and trying to find the time to stay happy and have enough energy for lovemaking. Many people who are judging me on this forum have no idea what my life and hardships are like. Yes, I do get some help from my family, but, I fight the battles in my head alone. I have to constantly keep myself in check to keep my family happy and stable. It is very true that a good wife and mother make for a happy family. I have to deal with this on every level of family life and the challenges families face occasionally. I am a positive person and try to focus on the good in my life.


I don't want to get into a discussion of right/wrong who's at fault or whatever. Too much of that in this thread already. I'm just wondering, Carol, what do you want to do, and how will that improve your situation? Do you want to rent an apartment and move out for a year or so? If so, are you going to take your mother with you, or institutionalize her? Do you want to go no-contact with your husband? Kids? Will you be happier if you're not in constant touch with your husband and kids? What about loneliness? Do you think you'll miss husband? Kids? What about finances? Will you be siphoning money out of the family to finance your single life? Is there enough for that?

Basically, I'm just wondering if you've given much thought to the mechanics of leaving.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> I don't want to get into a discussion of right/wrong who's at fault or whatever. Too much of that in this thread already. I'm just wondering, Carol, what do you want to do, and how will that improve your situation? Do you want to rent an apartment and move out for a year or so? If so, are you going to take your mother with you, or institutionalize her? Do you want to go no-contact with your husband? Kids? Will you be happier if you're not in constant touch with your husband and kids? What about loneliness? Do you think you'll miss husband? Kids? What about finances? Will you be siphoning money out of the family to finance your single life? Is there enough for that?
> 
> Basically, I'm just wondering if you've given much thought to the mechanics of leaving.


Or is the husband supposed to leave, find what we Brits call a bedsit, or rent a single room in a boarding house, whilst he still pays for the running costs of the house?

Or should he just vanish in a puff of smoke, with money to keep the house running just magically appearing every month?


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> MachoMcCoy, when you indicate to people here that they are a "walk away wife" you are pointing blame. Blame to the woman who has chosen to leave her husband and your statements make it look like the man was undeserving, a real good man, something us ladies just could not accept.


I never have much luck with the search feature here. If you know how to use it, there will be quite a few hits for "push-away husband". Each and every one will be attributed to me. Do your research before you accuse me of hypocrocy please.

I am married to a textbook walk-away-wife. I caused it as a push-away husband. I have admitted it a thousand times. Anyone that sees WAW as derogatory to the wife, doesn't know what it means. You can't have a WAW without a PAH.

It truly is always the husbands fault. But he's dealing with a wife that has NO CLUE what's happening to her, so she has been taught ZERO coping skills. So she wings it for a while. Then walks emotionally.

Textbook, but we all just want to point fingers, place blame and "win". So women will CONTINUE to come to this and other forums by the MILLIONS, wondering why this is happening.

I see it over, and over, and over, and over...


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Unless you know hypnosis....


No hypnosis. I call it a kick in the gut. And I have almost NO DOUBT it can make this OP's husband WANT to change. Just like you said he needed. 

Sorry, we do not disagree AT ALL.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> He was absolutely WRECKED when I left.


You don't say.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Stop blaming the wife because her husband is so hard to communicate with that he winds up blindsided. There is no need for anyone to parse the word 'is'.


I defy ANYONE to find a post where I blamed a wife for walking. 

Blondi, are you denying that you've seen this "blindsided" thing a thousand times? No, you don't. You KNOW it happens. THAT'S the finger pointing we need to stop. 

THIS husband hasn't heard her. I don't CARE who's fault it is. He has NO CLUE his wife is this far gone. When she finally leaves, which she WILL, he will ALSO be "blindsided". Agreed?

So we'll all place blame, say "you go girl", and not fix a damn thing.

What am I missing? Or more important, what are YOU all missing?


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> Basically, I'm just wondering if you've given much thought to the mechanics of leaving.


She's done it a "few times". She's a veteran. Unfortunately, she's also figured out caving in when they cry pretty well also. That negates the tough stand she just took. Scratch that, it make it worse when they are given empty threats.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> What am I missing?


The "♥" key on your keyboard bro!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I defy ANYONE to find a post where I blamed a wife for walking.
> 
> Blondi, are you denying that you've seen this "blindsided" thing a thousand times? No, you don't. You KNOW it happens. THAT'S the finger pointing we need to stop.
> 
> ...


The term 'walk away wife' is seen as derogatory and when not used in conjunction with 'push away husband' sounds blaming.

Yes, I see men claiming they are blindsided. Sympathy ploy? Maybe.
Please advise how she can make him hear her. You're missing the ability to communicate what you believe in your mind and heart to be true. We're missing what you think you know. So, spit it out.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> You don't say.


My goodness, you are a pretentious prick.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Oh dear this is getting unpleasant and polarised.

All I want to do is to enable Carol to see what she needs to see. 

That sometimes we might be in a bad situation that needs tough decisions.

Maybe the husband will need to get out. Maybe Carol could leave.

Or maybe counselling might help the 30 year marriage make it to year 60 with everyone happy.

We need help and advice in threads not people beating drums for their own pet factions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> We need help and advice in threads not people beating drums for their own pet factions.


OK. I'll go first.

Make him BELIEVE it this time.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> The term 'walk away wife' is seen as derogatory and when not used in conjunction with 'push away husband' sounds blaming.
> 
> Yes, I see men claiming they are blindsided. Sympathy ploy? Maybe.


Sympathy ploy? Not even fuc#ing close. And I'M the one that doesn't get it?


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

badsanta said:


> The "♥" key on your keyboard bro!


I have no idea what you mean by that. 50% divorce rate? God KNOWS what WAW rate? And you want hugs?

That is LITERALLY my point. My religion required that I go through a two day, overnight pre-marriage counseling session. Yet it took me 30 years and a little advice on a relationship forum to understand that my wife walked and I didn't know it? How can you live with someone for that long and thing she is your soul mate but she HATES YOU? How is that possible that we don't know that it is even POSSIBLE? Yet it happens every day. And men are blindsided. And women claim they told him until they are "blue in the face". 

Rinse-repeat. Yet I'M the radical here.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I'm done with this thread. 8 pages and it will get longer. Talking about THIS INDIVIDUAL WAW!! When we should be doing a case study in how it happens.
> 
> Leave him. FOR HIM. You took away 20+ years of this man's life. You committed him to a lifetime alone. Let him find someone who can love him through his old age.
> 
> ...


Many WAWs do try and fix it but the H is not listening and assumes she is just a nag. When do such Hs take responsibility for the role they play all along, why must the condition of the relationship always fall on the W, too many marriages are like this. too many Hs think that earning a bigger paycheck gives them the right to expect everything and give nothing else in return. They want appreciation (nothing wrong with that but it must be a two way street).
Men got away with that s*** in the 1950s, but not anymore. Ws are now working, pulling their weight inside and outside the home, educated, etc. Don't they deserve more?


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

aine said:


> Don't they deserve more?


They do. And once you get into the mind of that neanderthal, you may be able to learn how to deal with him better. I was that Neanderthal I'm offering myself up to research. Learn form me. Don't villanize me.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

aine said:


> Many WAWs do try and fix it but the H is not listening and assumes she is just a nag.


If I could prove how wrong that post is, I'd be a millionaire by now.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

jdawg2015 said:


> Macho, while I agree that people lose passion for each other and the staleness can be tough to reverse, I don't see this as a hopeless case.
> 
> The 12 year age difference as people get older is playing into this as well. He's "old" to her.
> 
> ...


Some men are just too bloody lazy, they know something is not right but hope it will go away, assume the wife will not do anything to upset the family, etc. Many wives feel exactly like that but who wants to be in a shell of a marriage, even if she does stay?

My H told me during a heart to heart what his thoughts were when I had moved to a new country for his work, was jobless, depressed, etc. and he was out drinking and hardly at home. I complained and the marriage got worse.

His words about me "what were you going to do about it anyhow, where were you going to go?' At that time there was nothing I could do, kids were still at home, I didn't have my own money, etc.

I have not forgotten those words and they have been a impetus for me to show him that he will eat those words, I am doing great now and could walk out any day and take care of myself financially. I choose not to right now but any man who thinks like that about his wife doesn't really deserve her tbh. AND that is why I am still sitting on the fence when it comes to my marriage. We are in reconciliation, but if he doesn't put in the work to show me I am worth it, I will also be a WAW.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> They do. And once you get into the mind of that neanderthal, you may be able to learn how to deal with him better. I was that Neanderthal I'm offering myself up to research. Learn form me. Don't villanize me.


LOL, I hear your pain though. I guess there is alot to be said about gender differences and cross communication. I think the bottom line is a lack of honesty in dealing with one another. If people were open and honest there would be less of this.

So to aid the 'research'

1. When your wife 'complained" about the state of things, what was your response? Did you understand her complaints? Did you act upon them?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Carol, you are still the foremost focus of this thread... while it may seem to be derailed at his point, there are many who are here wanting to keep this in it proper place and help.

You need to focus on your health, emotionally first, then the physical to strengthen your stamina because the two are intertwined.

Your mother still needs you, and you cannot help her if you are not in your best mind. No one should deny you the healthy happiness you deserve, I still say protect those that need your protection, let those that do not accept standing on their own feet for their own growth. You have to figure out how you will sustain the growth you need... but continue to recognize the help that those who truly need it.

I would say right now that would be you and your mother.

It's said, "Courage doesn’t happen when you have all the answers. It happens when you are ready to face the questions you have been avoiding your whole life."

You've done your best, nothing wrong with recognizing your choices reflect your hopes. You simply cannot stay trapped in the past.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Let us suppose that the wife complains about her husband.

But that her complaints are not only wrong but dangerously wrong?

That her complaints if her husband actually, really acted on them would weaken their marriage?

"Why can't you be more like that nice Mike?"

Nice Mike the secret wife beater?

"Why can't you be more like Joe? He gets on at work. He gets promotions."

Joe who gets on at work because he is cheating on his wife with the wife of his boss and who gets the inside information from her?

My wife was telling one of her friends in front of me what a useless and bad husband I was.

After a while her friend said to her "You have to realise that you could do worse than Matt. A LOT worse than Matt!" She then gave me a predatory look as she finished saying this.

I think some spouses both male and female gay and straight decide that there is something lacking in their life.

They seem to think that as they are near perfect that the problems must be external to them. So it must be their pesky spouse's fault!

There was a Peanuts cartoon that describes this thinking.

Linus is watching the TV. So Lucy comes along and says "I don't want to watch this TV show! I want to watch MY TV show!"

So Linus goes off to listen to the radio.

Lucy follows him and says "I don't want to listen to this radio programme I want to listen to MY radio programme!"

So Linus goes to listen to some records.

Lucy follows him and says "I don't want to listen to this record I want to listen to MY record!"

Linus then goes outside to look at the stars.

Lucy follows him and says "I don't want to watch these stars! I want to watch MY sta... Oh! "

Folks both male or female do not do a Lucy on your spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TurtleRun (Oct 18, 2013)

Hello, there is a lot of arguing here. Wish people would state their opinions on the matter and not their opinions of other people's opinion so the argument won't take up the thread :-/ . 

Op, your older children shouldn't be crying for you to stay in the marriage. They are your children, not exactly who you want giving you marriage opinions. They aren't even adulting, they still live with mom and dad.

I have 5 children (young) and at one point in my marriage I felt the way you have. My husband rescued the marriage by speaking my love language. In turn I spoke his. It took some work and with young children it is hard. We got through it. Honestly after 30 years you might as well give it a shot, you have nothing to lose by trying. I would actually make mark a date in the calendar, a realistic one. If nothing changes in say 6 months I would ask for a separation. If you separate it is to work on yourself not to divorce. If you really want to live without him after working on just yourself then divorce him. 30years of marriage doesn't mean you HAVE to stay and children doesn't mean you have to stay either. So no it is not to late for you. 

The previous posters are right . It isn't his job to make and keep you happy. That was one of my faults. I thought it was his job to keep me happy, ignite the passion, be romantic, take care of my emotional wellbeing. I do those things for my dh now (try to make him happy, be romantic, ignite passion) and I enjoy his company because we are both relaxed, happy, not disappointed. Haha if I feel under appreciated I buy myself something and thank my husband for the gift. He doesn't care how I spend money as long as I am happy, I try to be responsible. ? He does buy me little things, if he is out at he store he will grab my fav chocolate, something he thinks I would need or want... most of it is practical things I need. I never appreciated it before and I found out that was how he expressed his love by thinking of me on little things. Watch your husband closely for the awhile and see if he somehow expresses his love for you in small gestures. Even asking to help around the house he is saying something to you not in words but action. 

You also sound like you both need to recharge. I would take him on a vacation, a romantic one that YOU planned. Spoil him , love on him as if you were dating again. See how he reacts and how you feel about his reaction. I would also take a vacation without him with a friend. Just to have fun!

journal things you have done for him, his reaction and your feelings so you can read it over later. See if he reaches out to you differently after putting in effort . It will either validate or invalidate what you have been feeling lately. Give it a little bit of time after you gave your maximum effort one last time to make sure this is what you really want. 

30 years is a lot but if you need to move on then do it. Do not be guilted into staying and if you tried at the end atleast you can say you did what you could, not "well I didn't want to deal with it anymore". I think your children will be more receptive to a divorce if they see that you had made a big effort to try and make it work after their past reaction of your trying to leave. Their opinion means a lot to you. I mean geez mine took me to Disneyland together and left apart. That was how they broke it to us.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

*** additional thoughts***

If possible, see if you can get your mother into an assisted living memory care facility. I do not know your location (or state if in the US), but I do know being exhausted as the primary caregiver is cause enough for Medicare/Medicaid to step in and assist, if not give full care. Your Mother will have to turn over all retirement funding and assets (retirement, Social Security), and if there are assets for inheritance, those too. 

Once you have her safe and settled, you will be able to begin to realistically define your healthy outline and begin addressing where to become happy again. For those that won't understand (not can't, all have the ability to and is simply a matter of desire and effort), it may look like walking away but truthfully it's all about where one places themselves. 

By that, you may find your journey meandering a bit as you navigate those rocks I mentioned earlier, and that's fine... this is your personal path. If your husband wants to be in a place that you find him as you round those unseen corners, he will position himself to be so and you will not be walking away, but walking toward. He also has to work, and at times harder work of his learning with his big rocks so he too has the strength to meet you in the same landing.

You have to love and respect yourself to begin to understand feeling that for your husband. To me it sounds like he is in a place to want to wall off the past hurt and bad feelings, avoidance will not heal your resentment that has built between and that you recognize this has strength in itself because you are already able to see what you need to do sooner, as how you forgive that resentment is you challenge, and the right counselor may help guide you. 

Your husband cannot dictate a path for you anymore than you can for him... if my wife came to me and shared the frustrations you shared 10 years ago, I would have tried to tell her everything she needed to do to get there, told her where she was wrong and how her feelings needed to be... 

Today, I would ask how I could meet her there.

Resolution is easy to talk about where you are at, but true resolution is a mutual compromise and can never forced ... that is called surrender. Actions will always speak louder when emotional truth is presented ...do we truly want what's best for another, or are we too afraid to remove all walls and see another open and exposed, trusting you will not hurt me.

My wife and I entered our relationship at 26 and 36. We already had walls from various personal experiences and for the next 10 years did nothing but build them higher, and reinforce what had been there already, all in the guise of trying to build our relationship. I cannot tell you how poorly that worked, but we couldn't see around another's walls to know. The next 7 years were ugly... not sure how we made it but with help to find and relearn all the good that was in me, forgive all around me, and literally cast my armor aside and tore down every wall I had. 

I was terrified my first several years, but I learned all new strengths, and not one needed a wall to stand behind. The last 10 have been a journey worth taking for us both, and regret not one step I've made on that path.

Should you choose, you will learn these too.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

aine said:


> When your wife 'complained" about the state of things, what was your response? Did you understand her complaints?


Yes.



aine said:


> Did you act upon them?


No.

There you have it. Game over. Man's fault. Hi-fives for the ladies. Now let's "get" the next one. You go girls.

Rinse, repeat.


And to anyone thinking we threadjacked here, I don't get that either. A thread titled what this one is titled and a discussion of WAW's is off track?

Maybe I really DON'T get it.

:scratchhead:


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Beautiful words Turtle run and Buddhist. And as soon as you can get Mr. "I'm always right and everyone else is wrong" to see that the problem is HIS, they might even make a difference. 

All of the "advice" I've seen so far is nice. But you need him to give a crap first. He doesn't right now. 

I'll say it one more time. Make sure he FULLY understands that if he wants to remain married, there will be changes. 

And MAKE HIM BELIEVE IT!


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't. You've taken a thread from a new user and hijacked it to argue your point, a point you've previously started a thread about yourself. The fact that some of the posters here, you included, consider Carol a WAW or potential WAW doesn't justify you and a few others taking her thread to argue the nature of WAW's and who's really at fault in that situation. 

Here's a suggestion: Stop addressing other posters and defending your position and start addressing Carol. Once you've given _her_ your advice step back and give her some time to absorb and consider it. If you want to argue with people, pm them and invite them to your thread.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Never been one to care too much about blame. 

The thing that struck me most about my ex is that he did not really CARE about what I wanted until it threatened what he wanted. So clearly "telling" him things was useless as all he felt he needed to do was explain why I was wrong. 

So finally, the question I ask myself is "would I choose to use any new communication techniques to get through to him if they were available to me?" And the answer, for me, ultimately was no. I stopped caring for the person who saw me only as a means to his ends. If I got "though" to him, his motivation would remain getting FROM me what HE wanted. And that just was not ok for me. The fact that we were not married made the break up an easier thing from a practical standpoint. That was a plus.

I don't speak for everyone, clearly. But I have always wondered at the people who don't really care about their partner's PoV except, unless and until their presence is going to be taken away. Why would anyone want to fight tooth and nail to save that?

DH has a very hard time understanding my PoV very frequently, and I his. But we TRY. He does not argue with me about being right and try to convince me to just do whatever he wants. He often misses the point of something I am trying to communicate, and does something ancillary related to the conversation. But I feel that is a win because he is clearly CARING about my feelings on a subject.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Again, nothing can be forced or made... as Carol takes her path, the cause and effect will outline what he is willing to do to make things better...

Or not.

To walk together on that path is always best but the view is often different while proceeding to the destination. 

The hard part is not the knowing, but the sharing of the details of that destination together. For some, the race to the top is the goal, but you miss so many things in between that make the journey rewarding that others may not be willing to sacrifice the learning and exploring.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

aine said:


> Many WAWs do try and fix it but the H is not listening and assumes she is just a nag. When do such Hs take responsibility for the role they play all along, why must the condition of the relationship always fall on the W, too many marriages are like this. too many Hs think that earning a bigger paycheck gives them the right to expect everything and give nothing else in return. They want appreciation (nothing wrong with that but it must be a two way street).
> Men got away with that s*** in the 1950s, but not anymore. Ws are now working, pulling their weight inside and outside the home, educated, etc. Don't they deserve more?


Target on!!!! My first husband thought it was fine for him to cheat but I know that if I had ever done the same he would have been gone. With my husband now that I have been married to for 24 years, when we would have problems I always tried to talk things thru, make sense of the problem, we talked about how to make things better but he would not follow thru on his part, it was like he thought he could just agree or say whatever and then do his own thing which just escalates the issues. We went to marital counselors several times and some of the statements that he made to them was, "I thought this was typical male behavior," when he explained about his 3 emotional affairs and his pursuit of women. When we were counseled about quality time together instead of him spending every waking hour plugged into his electronics his response was, "But I like these things," so does that mean he didn't like spending time with me? After one counselor told him that viewing naked celebrities was hurting him, me and his marriage, he told me that there was nothing wrong with viewing naked celebrities. You see he wasn't listening to anyone, not even the professionals. He believed that all I had to do was accept him which meant accepting that he was going to seek other women and I was expected to go to him for sex to please him. That serious was, and has been, his mind set. In another session with our counselor the counselor had addressed his lack of communication and his response was, "My wife does a lot better job of communicating than my first wife." Serious? I then told the counselor that he depends on me for all communication, does not reciprocate, does not tell me things (important things like his sons's baby being born), I am supposed to guess what is on his mind and what is going on. I am not a miracle worker and I have become tired beyond belief at this crazy insane dynamic. 

So I am considered a walk away wife.....geesh, be real (directed towards MachoMcCoy). I think the only person trying in my marriage was me. Husband does cannot face his responsibilities towards the marriage, he cannot face his addiction issues and lack of communication problems that have caused this marriage so much hurt. Was I patient and understanding ? Yes! Did I seek help for us? Yes! But he was unwilling to do his part. The part he was willing to carry out was...one counselor felt that some of husband's loving actions towards me should be to give me a card or flowers from time to time. He did, like clock work and it was just as counselor suggested card and flowers, he had no imagination and I honestly felt he has computer reminders that prompted this. No hugs, no talking, no asking me top do anything with him, no talk about progress. It was more of I am doing what the counselor told me so give me what I want in return. I actually asked him to stop. This was not coming from him and it wasn't coming from his heart. he was doing it because he was told. I felt like I was being bought. Just toss me a card and I should be all climbing over him ....not hardly!


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Nucking Futs said:


> Here's a suggestion: Stop addressing other posters and defending your position and start addressing Carol. Once you've given _her_ your advice step back and give her some time to absorb and consider it.



Make sure he HEARS you this time.

Good luck.

Macho out!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Make sure he HEARS you this time.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Macho out!


You have supposedly given advice on this magic trick. Care to share links?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

carol10 said:


> Yes, I understand, but at what cost? am I unworthy of having a happy life? Do I sacrifice my needs to keep my children happy? - and for how long? What if it cost me my health and emotional wellbeing? Are you saying that just because I got married young and was not experienced in life and men, that this is the price I now should pay? Remember I am still married, I have stuck it out for 31 yrs. AND I AM STILL DEVOTED TO MY CHILDRENS WELLBEING. ( ages from 17 through to 27yrs) - They are not babes anymore... Surely, marriage is indeed what you make of it. But you have to be realistic and understand that sometimes two people are not compatable.no matter how hard the journey. Im still hanging in there!! - BTW are you married and for how long??


 @carol10, IF you are still here, please know that you are perfectly within your rights to end your marriage if that is what you feel you need to do FOR YOU. Shame on your grown children for not giving a damn how you feel or how you are treated! They need to get OUT of your house and make their own lives! You get one shot at life...you have already spent a HUGE chunk of your putting your own happiness on the back burner to take care of and appease others. Do you want to continue for another 31 years in this way? Obviously you don't, or you wouldn't be here in the first place. 

Also SHAME on these TAM posters that have villianized this poor woman! What is the matter with you all?? Its one thing to encourage someone to take steps to work on things, its another to SHAME them for wanting better for themselves! All of us are entitled to do what is best for ourselves, at least support her right to feel her own feelings! 

Good lord people....


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> No what I'm saying is that she shouldn't just throw a 30 year marriage way because she is going through a hard time. A lot of what I said in my first post was to wake her up and get her attention, since all of you had jumped on the divorce bandwagon.
> 
> I see no legal or religious or ethical reason that would justify her divorcing. None. She fell out of love with her husband. Okay I get it. It happens to women all the time. They bail. It happens all the time...
> 
> I'm just trying to keep her from bailing and throwing a way a 30+ year marriage that has had no physical or emotional abuse, no adultery, no deception or lying that I can see from her post. She's just "unhappy". Well sorry, to me that's no a good reason to divorce.




Except this isn't a whim. In her first post she stated that she's tried to leave twice before and was guilted to stay. I don't know how anyone can say divorcing after being miserable for 30 years is taking the easy way out. You stay because divorce is hard. 

Also I used to work with someone that had to be right and win every argument. It's emotionally taxing. I can't imagine being married to someone like that. I equate it with emotional abuse.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> @carol10, IF you are still here, please know that you are perfectly within your rights to end your marriage if that is what you feel you need to do FOR YOU. Shame on your grown children for not giving a damn how you feel or how you are treated! They need to get OUT of your house and make their own lives! You get one shot at life...you have already spent a HUGE chunk of your putting your own happiness on the back burner to take care of and appease others. Do you want to continue for another 31 years in this way? Obviously you don't, or you wouldn't be here in the first place.
> 
> Also SHAME on these TAM posters that have villianized this poor woman! What is the matter with you all?? Its one thing to encourage someone to take steps to work on things, its another to SHAME them for wanting better for themselves! All of us are entitled to do what is best for ourselves, at least support her right to feel her own feelings!
> 
> Good lord people....



Yeah you are right. 

We should all agree with each other and say the same things. 

Why would the OP want differing opinions? That just muddies up the waters.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Differing opinions is a different animal than coming down on someone and shaming them for how they feel and what they think they need to do to improve where they are. Bandit, would you have said those same things to a MAN in her situation?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Except this isn't a whim. In her first post she stated that she's tried to leave twice before and was guilted to stay. I don't know how anyone can say divorcing after being miserable for 30 years is taking the easy way out. You stay because divorce is hard.


AND you have genuine concern for the little human people you created. That said, IF I were to find fault (to which I would be totally sympathetic) it would be to allow children to interfere with one's own grown up decisions. Their guilting hre vs. just believing that staying is in their best interest.



> Also I used to work with someone that had to be right and win every argument. It's emotionally taxing. I can't imagine being married to someone like that. I equate it with emotional abuse.


Abuse or not, it is NOT fun. It is not just taxing, it makes you doubt your own sanity. How could one possibly be so wrong so all of the time?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm going to guess that 8th person in the house is a grandchild.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes, we can cherry pick many threads to uphold our own confirmation bias. It's funny how bandit is now a hypocrite and people are finding the specific threads where his advice is DIFFERENT for a DIFFERENT situation as some type of derailing "AHA, we got your gender bias" moment. It's funny because I can cherry pick posts and show you have a bias as well. Heck, I can do that with most posters myself included. Still, in reality, very few posters are truly hypocrites as they take each situation into account before they reply.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> Differing opinions is a different animal than coming down on someone and shaming them for how they feel and what they think they need to do to improve where they are. Bandit, would you have said those same things to a MAN in her situation?


Oh, yes. He would. And has on a number of occasions. 

And I have received some pretty firm advice from Bandit over the years since I arrived on TAM.

But he was one of the first people to suggest that my wife had High Functioning Asperger's Syndrome, since confirmed by a specialist.

Don't run away with the idea that Bandit is a misogynist. Because he is not. Really, he is not.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Carol, I'll return you to your original question.



> 30 yrs of marriage- is it too late?


No. It is not too late. Until such time as *you* decide it is too late.

You could write down two lists side by side.

List A Reasons it is too late.
List B Reasons it is not too late.

Read through both lists. If one predominates, go with that list and your heart and seek counselling to help you move forward with either option A or option B.

Either way, we will support you in your decision.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm wondering if this guy needs the same advice posted here? @bandit.45 ?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/328721-two-year-plan.html


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> Differing opinions is a different animal than coming down on someone and shaming them for how they feel and what they think they need to do to improve where they are. Bandit, would you have said those same things to a MAN in her situation?


Yes.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> I'm wondering if this guy needs the same advice posted here? @bandit.45 ?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/328721-two-year-plan.html


I had not read that thread before, but yes I would tell him the same thing I told Carol. Except that he has not posted in over a month and a half. So I would be pissing in the wind because he has never come back. 

Carol is going to do what she wants to do. If she is through with the marriage, if her husband is truly the abuser everyone seems to think he is, then she I guess she has good reason to sh!tcan the marriage. 

I wish her the best and hope everything works out for her.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> I had not read that thread before, but yes I would tell him the same thing I told Carol. Except that he has not posted in over a month and a half. So I would be pissing in the wind because he has never come back.
> 
> Carol is going to do what she wants to do. If she is through with the marriage, if her husband is truly the *abuser* everyone seems to think he is, then she I guess she has good reason to sh!tcan the marriage.
> 
> I wish her the best and hope everything works out for her.


I have seen very little accusation of abuse. Who is this everyone of whom you speak? Is the bar of a loving relationship so low that accepting anything shy of "abuse" is expected?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I have seen very little accusation of abuse. Who is this everyone of whom you speak? Is the bar of a loving relationship so low that accepting anything shy of "abuse" is expected?


There were several posts on here where the posters were saying his controlling nature and refusal to back down from arguments is a form of abuse. Go back and read again. I'm not going to waste my time pulling out quotes for you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> There were several posts on here where the posters were saying his controlling nature and refusal to back down from arguments is a form of abuse. Go back and read again. I'm not going to waste my time pulling out quotes for you.


"Everyone"?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> "Everyone"?


Please, let's not quibble. It really is not going to help Carol any, now is it?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I said her husband is controlling because he wants her to pretend to the family that she is happy. Did not call it abuse; but, a controlling person can certainly be abusive with their need to control. It sounds like the parents are so into pretending they have a happy life so the kiddos (who are adults still living at home) won't get upset. How sad to live an inauthentic life.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> I said her husband is controlling because he wants her to pretend to the family that she is happy. Did not call it abuse; but, a controlling person can certainly be abusive with their need to control. It sounds like the parents are so into pretending they have a happy life so the kiddos (who are adults still living at home) won't get upset. How sad to live an inauthentic life.


Unless the parents are Oscar winning actors the children, the *adult* children, probably have a pretty good idea of what's really happening.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Unless the parents are Oscar winning actors the children, the *adult* children, probably have a pretty good idea of what's really happening.


Unless Carol is carrying a lot of resentment that her husband really, *truly* has no idea about? If the kids don't see it, then how would he?


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Screw it Carol signed up on the 9th and was gone by the 11th after 6 posts. All on this thread. It's an open thread now. And if she DOES come back? This post is what she needs to read. It's all about her, from MY perspective, anyhow. I'll start with my recent advice directed soley to her:




MachoMcCoy said:


> Make sure he HEARS you this time.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Macho out!



NS, obviously being someone who DOESN'T get it and missed my hint, wrote this:



NobodySpecial said:


> You have supposedly given advice on this magic trick. Care to share links?


My hint:



MachoMcCoy said:


> What do each and every one of those "few times" she "tried to end it" have in common?


If I give you the answer, you won't "get" it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Please, let's not quibble. It really is not going to help Carol any, now is it?


Well that was certainly the intent. I was pointing out the hyperbole so that recognition that a myriad of opinions were offered here could be achieved.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Screw it Carol signed up on the 9th and was gone by the 11th after 6 posts. All on this thread. It's an open thread now. And if she DOES come back? This post is what she needs to read. It's all about her, from MY perspective, anyhow. I'll start with my recent advice directed soley to her:


Your advice to her is the MAKE him get it. But you fail to explain how one is to achieve that. If she came here at year 5, instead of year 30, I would have had some good advice for her having done it.



> NS, obviously being someone who DOESN'T get it and missed my hint, wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your points are very easy to miss when you just b!itch at people who don't "get" you, hint, but fail to actually say anything.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Hints are a piss-poor way to communicate. The OP's husband may be deliberately obtuse; just as some male posters can claim they were blindsided, he can claim that he thought they were just going through a rough patch (for 30 years).


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Hints are a piss-poor way to communicate. The OP's husband may be deliberately obtuse; just as some male posters can claim they were blindsided, he can claim that he thought they were just going through a rough patch (for 30 years).


there are occasions when a partner might want their spouse to be other than they can be, other than they have a right to expect or could reasonably expect.

"Gee! If only you were taller! Shorter! Smarter!" type of thing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> there are occasions when a partner might want their spouse to be other than they can be, other than they have a right to expect or could reasonably expect.
> 
> "Gee! If only you were taller! Shorter! Smarter!" type of thing.


Right. But that is not what Carol is posting about.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Right. But that is not what Carol is posting about.


Are they not?

I knew a man who was a confirmed swearer. Every other word was the "F" word.

His girlfriend dated him for three whole years and must have heard him use the "F" words and a wide and eclectic variety of other swearwords tens of thousands of times.

Yet after they married she divorced him after a year on the grounds that she did not like his swearing.

As he said: "She knew I swore all the time! If she wanted to marry someone who didn't swear, why did she marry me?"


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Are they not?
> 
> I knew a man who was a confirmed swearer. Every other word was the "F" word.
> 
> ...


MattMatt, you have a good point here, one I have thought about many times. I too knew about my husband's use of porn and his over indulgence in alcohol, we had conversations of both. I was under the impression that he had fallen into a habit hanging out with the guys with his drinking. I believed him when he told me that he had never been the initiator with women and that porn had been his old stand-by. I thought things would be different once he felt that he coudl come to me but little did I know how deeply ingrained his thought process was. I had no clue that a man could be so hooked on porn that he would not go to his wife for sex.

So you see it is not that we think we can change this man but I think we can be very naive to what we are dealing with. 

As far as your friend's cussing, I wonder if the cussing was not the full issue for the divorce. There was probably something else that happened that she could not tolerate and then the cussing became a bigger issue.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

AVR1962 said:


> MattMatt, you have a good point here, one I have thought about many times. I too knew about my husband's use of porn and his over indulgence in alcohol, we had conversations of both. I was under the impression that he had fallen into a habit hanging out with the guys with his drinking. I believed him when he told me that he had never been the initiator with women and that porn had been his old stand-by. I thought things would be different once he felt that he coudl come to me but little did I know how deeply ingrained his thought process was. I had no clue that a man could be so hooked on porn that he would not go to his wife for sex.
> 
> So you see it is not that we think we can change this man but I think we can be very naive to what we are dealing with.
> 
> As far as your friend's cussing, I wonder if the cussing was not the full issue for the divorce. There was probably something else that happened that she could not tolerate and then the cussing became a bigger issue.


It's possible. She would find out from mutual friends where he was working and would keep making nuisance calls to his new workplace until he had to get a new job.

That didn't happen where we worked as we had a proper switchboard and no direct lines to or from the offices.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> It's possible. She would find out from mutual friends where he was working and would keep making nuisance calls to his new workplace until he had to get a new job.
> 
> That didn't happen where we worked as we had a proper switchboard and no direct lines to or from the offices.


Sounds like she was having a rough time dealing with something and wasn't handling boundaries well.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

OliviaG said:


> BTW @bandit.45 , you have not answered her question. She asked you about your own marriage. I think she's trying to reconcile your advice within the context of how you actually live your life.


You're apparently ignorant of his history, he did not divorce over one affair.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> I'm wondering if this guy needs the same advice posted here? @bandit.45 ?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/328721-two-year-plan.html


I am wondering if we really need pointless goading posts and people trying to start flame wars?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Macho, why don't you write your book, put it up for sale and stop beating people over the head with the chapters. You think you have all the answers but for some reason you are unwilling to share them. Either you have them or you don't. Perhaps, you could start with how to determine how to talk to your husband so he understands. Stop blaming the wife because her husband is so hard to communicate with that he winds up blindsided. There is no need for anyone to parse the word 'is'.


When you pair that up with the constant cries in TAM for the woman to leave BEFORE she commits adultery, it becomes clear that there is no real path for a woman. Someone will yell at her no matter what she does.

There are always reasons why adultery happens or why a spouse leaves a marriage, and "I just felt like it" isn't often it.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I never have much luck with the search feature here. If you know how to use it, there will be quite a few hits for "push-away husband". Each and every one will be attributed to me. Do your research before you accuse me of hypocrocy please.
> 
> I am married to a textbook walk-away-wife. I caused it as a push-away husband. I have admitted it a thousand times. Anyone that sees WAW as derogatory to the wife, doesn't know what it means. You can't have a WAW without a PAH.
> 
> ...


Why do you assume that the wife has "zero coping skills"? Marriage is a two way street. Were you dealing with the problems she raised or were you trying to convince her to cope with the minor inconvenience of those silly little problems?

Or is it possible that the husband has never been taught how to communicate with a wife?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I have no idea what you mean by that. 50% divorce rate? God KNOWS what WAW rate? And you want hugs?
> 
> That is LITERALLY my point. My religion required that I go through a two day, overnight pre-marriage counseling session. Yet it took me 30 years and a little advice on a relationship forum to understand that my wife walked and I didn't know it? How can you live with someone for that long and thing she is your soul mate but she HATES YOU? How is that possible that we don't know that it is even POSSIBLE? Yet it happens every day. And men are blindsided. And women claim they told him until they are "blue in the face".
> 
> Rinse-repeat. Yet I'M the radical here.


It IS easier to get a divorce nowadays. You are quite right about that. But do you know WHY it is easier? I hope you don't think that the legislatures of 50 states, some liberal, some quite conservative, all agreed that the old system was broken.

Broken in what way? Primarily because it forced people to stay together who could not stand each other. And it pushed others into long-term affairs.

Marital help in the form of counselling was expensive and hard to come by back then.

And about the only way one could get a divorce was to prove abandonment, prove adultery, or prove one or another set of special circumstances.

The family gossip in my family (and I'm sure in many many others back in the first half of the last century was all about whose marriage was turning into a war, who had taken off leaving a wife and three kids with no source of income at all, who was just discovered to be deep in an affair, etc., etc., etc.

Things changed. Drugs became more widely used. "Free Love" was a mantra in the land. Women had a right to be fulfilled, as did men. And some states, Massachusetts for one, still had laws against selling contraceptives.

And the courts became loaded with fake adultery claims. In New York, for example, you needed two witnesses to an actual sex or near sex act. You wanted a divorce, you got together with two friends and arranged a story. Then you went to court and swore to it. And then you got your divorce.

Of course if one spouse did NOT want the divorce, that wouldn't work and so you stayed married.

I don't know where it started, but the notion of allowing folks who WANTED a divorce to do so without blaming either husband or wife came into existence. This was the no-fault divorce and it became very popular.

And that's how we got to where we are today. Believe me (though I suspect you won't) we are much better off now than we were back then.

One last thing: Is there more adultery now than there was? I'd estimate that there was a good bit of it before the "free love" movement in the late '60s and early '70s when it skyrocketed (but was mostly "free" with the spouses permission) and then has fallen back today to a level I suspect is only a bit higher than it was back in the good old days.

Please don't feel that we are picking on you. You clearly have reason to believe that you've been very badly treated by your wife. But then, lack of communication is the largest problem in marriage.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Let us suppose that the wife complains about her husband.
> 
> But that her complaints are not only wrong but dangerously wrong?
> 
> ...


You are SO right!


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