# Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"



## sol_lost (Jan 13, 2014)

Spoke to my new IC about behavior my H is doing which has me concerned for my kids. She said she definitely understands how this is hard for me to see, and almost definitely terrifying for the kids, and emotionally damaging to them. She said he didn’t know where the cutoff of emotional or verbal abuse was technically from a legal aspect. She said also though it was “not OK” what he does is not considered reportable. She suggested I talk to H about how his behavior is “abusive and terrifying” to the kids. I have tried before, I will try again. I honestly don’t think he understands this is abusive, and wouldn’t try to damage the kids. However, he will not listen to me because he cannot handle feeling criticized.

My question is two-fold. Other than talking to him directly, are there other resources I can try to get him to see how behavior towards the kids is damaging? Other question, if it is not “reportable” does that not mean it is legal consideration in the event of separation, for custody considerations? My concern is down the road, if this can’t stop, and if the marriage falls apart, that he continues to do this to the kids and I wouldn’t be there to keep him in check or protect them, or that it might escalate when another adult is there.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

What is he doing and what country (if it's US it might be helpful to know what state as laws vary) are you in? How old are your children too?

I have plenty of advice for the UK and the legal system here, but not so much in the US...but people on here will have advice if they know what laws you fall under.

PS. I suspect it is b****cks that it is 'unreportable' for the simple reason you can report ANYTHING!!! Whether they make arrests on that basis or not is another thing, but having the police aware of the situation can be very useful even if they can't press any charges AT THAT TIME! It acts as corroboration, it gives recognisable time lines, it logs escalation etc etc.

Get a recording device and gather any evidence of what is happening wherever and whenever possible...photos, witnesses, keep a diary, get the kids to keep diaries, videos, voice files etc etc...and yes, report things to the police if they are abusive, especially if it is affecting the kids!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

Get a spiral notebook or calendar. Have an entry for every single day. Each day, write out every single detail that has anything to do with him OR him and the kids. It's usually not admissible in court, but if you are able to show constant concern, it may be enough for the authorities to step in, and it may be enough for a judge to remove him access to the kids.

Also get to know every single person with whom your kids interact that have to do with your ex. There may come a time that your relationship with them comes in handy.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

Sol_lost, 

I read your other posts where you mention you are in California, and you do not want to tell your children's ages but they are young, elementary school age. I also notice that you deeply suspect your husband of infidelity, but confronted with no proof, and your husband is a rather tech-savvy guy so now you can't get proof. AND you say his behavior seems "abusive" but you use the term vaguely and say maybe it's "emotional or verbal" abuse and you are keeping track of the things he does that make you uncomfortable. 

Let me give you a *strong word of advice*, and I'm not a lawyer but I have seen the realities of divorce probably a thousand times. 

*First,* just because your husband does things that make you uncomfortable does not mean it is abusive. Until I see more concrete proof of actual abuse, I'm not taking that bait, because I've seen too many women throw that word out there to get the legal edge in their divorce. He's free to do things differently than you and it's not necessarily abusive--it's different. 

My exH was abusive, so let me give you a list of the kinds of things he did to me. He would scream at me from midnight to 4am to try keep me sleep deprived. He would point knives at me. He kicked my dog so hard the dog flew into the wall. He broke/destroyed things that were precious to me. He would grab my arms so hard I had hand-print bruises. He would call me names...and I mean spitefully insulting names. He would incite me to rage then say "See how you're the one who's angry?" He took a sledgehammer to the walls in the house searching for something he thought I had hidden. He destroyed my computer looking for the transcripts of his sex chats. He threatened me. He told me I was crazy and imagining things. He was ABUSIVE! 

Soooo...I don't take to vague usage of the word "abusive" and I feel slightly upset when women use that term to try to get a legal "edge" in a custody battle. Is he abusive or not? If he's abusive, then call the police, have him arrested, and start going to a domestic violence support group. 

*Second,* when you go to court for a divorce, the judge is not going to care if your spouse is abusive or committed adultery one bit. The judge is not going to tell your spouse "That was WRONG!" and then punish them by giving you custody. Even prisoners in prison for murder have parental rights! The judge's job is going to be to split your assets and debts equitably and probably give as equal custody as is possible. The reason that women sometimes get more custody is usually if the kids are very young (like toddlers or less) and they were SAHM, in which case the judge might say that until the kids get a bit older, they are 2/3 with mom who was the primary care giver, and 1/3 with dad who still has parental rights. 

*Here's the truth.* Even if your husband IS abusive and you divorce, the kids ARE going to be with him at least half the time. And if you go to the judge and say, "But judge he's abusive! He yelled at XX when XX refused to do his homework and he called me names" the judge is going to think YOU are the nutty spouse for trying to influence custody with a story like that. The judge does not care. Every parent occasionally yells. Every parent does things the other parent doesn't really like. That's NO REASON to give you sole custody. If you can demonstrate that you can provide for the kids better, care for them better, you were their primary care giver, and it's in their best interests...it is conceivable you make get something like a 60/40 split. 

Sooooo...here is my strong word of advice for you: if you divorce, your kids ARE going to be living half their life with their father. He can make choices you don't like, and he won't have to report to you about it. He can even be a mean jerk to them, and you can't stop him or make him change. So if you want to do anything, teach your child how to have high self-esteem, how to identify abuse, how to deal with and handle an abusive person, and how to cope....because here's a fact: he is their FATHER. He is going to be in their lives as long as he lives.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

Look for guardian ad litems that are vetted by the court that handles custody. They are professionals in helping kids caught up in situations like this. They focus on what is best for the children, are reasonable, thorough, and the courts will listen to them more than they would listen to an attorney or a parent when it comes to the welfare of a child.

You might want to read "Children, the Challenge" (Rudolf Dreikurs) and be aware that the worst thing you can do for your children in any circumstance is to (1) feel sorry for them (2) try to buffer them from reality 100%. Both tend to disempower children from participating in solving their own issues. The bottom line is that they will have a relationship with each of their parents and it is going to be up to them to manage that relationship according to their skill level. You cannot make the other parent any more perfect using legislation and mandates, than they were when they were married to you. But, you can engage in a long term process that teaches your children how to manage their lives and to advocate for themselves. A guardian ad litem is a good start. You can tell the kids there are some problems that attorneys, courts and parents (i.e. you) can't fix and you will take them to a person who can maybe help. 

In the meantime, you can role play and brain storm with them about what to do for the top things that really bug them and disturb them when they are with their other parent. Do not try to solve the bigger issue, you won't succeed. But do start small, and have small successes. They will add up.

Don't try to use your IC as a way to get the courts to manage your ex. I don't think it's going to be very helpful for you as an individual. So, therapist will agree that everything sucks. They are not G*d, they have credentials, but even if someone is abusive, if they are not breaking the law, isn't the therapist's role to teach you how to deal with that, how to buffer your life and more importantly, your inner thoughts and feelings about it, not to police it?


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

If you are not sure whether your relationship is abusive it would be a good idea to take a look at this list and work out if it is abusive and also gauge the level of danger in your situation so you can work out what would be appropriate action:

*Physical Abuse:*

pushed or shoved you
held you to keep you leaving, or locked you out of the house
slapped, bit, kicked or choked you
hit of punched you
thrown objects at you
abandoned you in dangerous places
refused to help when you were sick, injured, or pregnant
subjected you to reckless driving or kept you from driving
raped you
threatened to hurt you with a weapon

*Sexual Abuse:*

made demeaning remarks about women
treated women as sex objects
been jealously angry
insisted you dress in a more sexual way than you wanted
prevented you from dressing nicely or wearing make-up
minimised the importance of your feelings about sex
criticised you sexually
insisted on unwanted touching
withheld sex or affection
called you names like '*****' or 'frigid'
forced you to strip when you didn't want to
publicly shown interest in other women
had affairs with other women after agreeing to monogomy
forced sex
forced particular unwanted sex acts
forced sex after beating
committed sadistic sexual acts

*Emotional Abuse:*

ignored your feelings
ridiculed or insulted women as a group
insulted your valued beliefs, religion, race, heritage, or class
withheld approval or affection as a punishment
criticised you, called you names, shouted at you
insulted your family or friends
humiliated you
refused to socialise with you
kept you from working, controlled your money, made all decisions
refused to work or share money
taken car keys or money away
regularly threatened to leave or told you to leave
threatened to hurt you or your family
punished the children when he/she was angry at you
threatened to kidnap the children if you left him
abused pets to hurt you
manipulated you with lies and contradictions

Although all of the above are abusive and unpleasant, not all of them are criminal. It might help you clarify things to yourself better. If you feel the threat of violence, you can still report it to the police. They won't be able to do much but they will give you advice and be aware of the situation if they ever do have to come out.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*



sol_lost said:


> Spoke to my new IC about behavior my H is doing which has me concerned for my kids. She said she definitely understands how this is hard for me to see, and almost definitely terrifying for the kids, and emotionally damaging to them. * She said he didn’t know where the cutoff of emotional or verbal abuse was technically from a legal aspect. She said also though it was “not OK” what he does is not considered reportable. *She suggested I talk to H about how his behavior is “abusive and terrifying” to the kids. I have tried before, I will try again. I honestly don’t think he understands this is abusive, and wouldn’t try to damage the kids. However, he will not listen to me because he cannot handle feeling criticized.
> 
> My question is two-fold. Other than talking to him directly, are there other resources I can try to get him to see how behavior towards the kids is damaging? Other question, if it is not “reportable” does that not mean it is legal consideration in the event of separation, for custody considerations? My concern is down the road, if this can’t stop, and if the marriage falls apart, that he continues to do this to the kids and I wouldn’t be there to keep him in check or protect them, or that it might escalate when another adult is there.


Your counsellor, with respect, is not very bright.

She admits she is clueless about this aspect of the law, but then says what your husband is doing is not considered reportable.

Based on her self-admitted lack of knowledge of the law, how the hell would she know what is, or is not, reportable?:scratchhead:


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*



MattMatt said:


> Your counsellor, with respect, is not very bright.
> 
> Shed admits she is clueless about this aspect of the law, but then says what your husband is doing is not considered reportable.
> 
> Based on her self-admitted lack of knowledge of the law, how the hell would she know what is, or is not, reportable?:scratchhead:


There are a lot of grey areas in the UK when it comes to police involvement because the way situations are dealt with often comes down to the discretion of the officers themselves. This can be a reason your counsellor can't say how the police will respond - telling you it is 'unreportable' is IMO irresponsible. 

999 or the emergency number is for life and death situations ONLY. But the non-emergency numbers and calling the station directly are available for anything - you can discuss it with an officer and see what action, if any, can be taken and get advice as to what you can do next. Any genuine concern is reportable.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*



MissFroggie said:


> There are a lot of grey areas in the UK when it comes to police involvement because the way situations are dealt with often comes down to the discretion of the officers themselves. This can be a reason your counsellor can't say how the police will respond - telling you it is 'unreportable' is IMO irresponsible.
> 
> 999 or the emergency number is for life and death situations ONLY. But the non-emergency numbers and calling the station directly are available for anything - you can discuss it with an officer and see what action, if any, can be taken and get advice as to what you can do next. Any genuine concern is reportable.


101 is the number in the UK.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*



MattMatt said:


> 101 is the number in the UK.


I know, I was keeping it open to anyone reading it who wasn't in the UK - and you don't have to call 101 if you want to call the station directly you can still do that too


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*



MattMatt said:


> Your counsellor, with respect, is not very bright.
> 
> She admits she is clueless about this aspect of the law, but then says what your husband is doing is not considered reportable.
> 
> Based on her self-admitted lack of knowledge of the law, how the hell would she know what is, or is not, reportable?:scratchhead:


Actually I do sort of know the answer to this one. As a counselor, US or UK, what we learn is not "here, read the laws and become a legal expert in this particular area of abuse." In fact we're taught quite heavily about client confidentiality and when it is required for us to breach confidentiality and report it. 

So a counselor CAN NOT breach anything said in the session, and we can not quote the laws like perhaps a lawyer who specializes in domestic violence, but we are taught "This and This is reportable. Here is the standard by which you can tell you are required by law to report the situation." Counselors are experts in psychology, not law.

ETA: I agree with calling the station directly. No matter what, even if it's not something that is criminal, they can always at least take a report and/or take your statement and keep it on file.


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## MissFroggie (Sep 3, 2013)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*



Affaircare said:


> Actually I do sort of know the answer to this one. As a counselor, US or UK, what we learn is not "here, read the laws and become a legal expert in this particular area of abuse." In fact we're taught quite heavily about client confidentiality and when it is required for us to breach confidentiality and report it.
> 
> So a counselor CAN NOT breach anything said in the session, and we can not quote the laws like perhaps a lawyer who specializes in domestic violence, but we are taught "This and This is reportable. Here is the standard by which you can tell you are required by law to report the situation." Counselors are experts in psychology, not law.
> 
> ETA: I agree with calling the station directly. No matter what, even if it's not something that is criminal, they can always at least take a report and/or take your statement and keep it on file.


I understand what you mean about breaking confidentiality and I understand where you are coming from. I do however think a counsellor telling a client that their situation is 'unreportable' is irresponsible of the counsellor - it undermines the affect the client is experiencing, undermines the relationship between counsellor and client and also fails to recognise the possibility that the client is not disclosing the full extent of what is happening. 

IMO it would be more appropriate for a counsellor to say to a client that speaking to the police through non-emergency methods - calling or in person - is up to the client's discretion and to make sure the client is aware that the police may not be able to take any _action_ at this point but will offer advice and keep it on file for future reference.

Saying it is not a valid report leaves a victim of abuse feeling powerless and will inhibit reports should the abuse escalate - they will question whether this new development is 'reportable' or if they will be seen to be making a fuss over nothing.

The police have always told me that if in doubt report it.

This is also relevant because there are certain laws where there have to have been X number of incidents before they can take action. Failing to report things can change whether something can be done or not. Report everything!


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## sol_lost (Jan 13, 2014)

*Thanks -Rseveral responses within*

Hi All,

Thank you so very, very much for all of your responses . I hope to clarify a few things so maybe it would make sense to those reading.

First, I would like to express in response to concerns, I would never make assertions of abuse for myself of my kids for leverage/custody. I truly want what is best for my children I totally get / understand being upset / worried that people might be throwing the word “abuse” around lightly, because of my own history. I assure you I am not, and the idea that I, and my kids might be abused only came to light /question in my mind over the last year. I grew up being verbally and physically abused (classic, unrefuted, textbook) by a parent until I was an adult and moved out. It was not the worst case ever, but it definitely was both. My entire childhood I was terrified of my parent, lied about the abuse, hid it from everyone because of the threats made by parent if I told anyone, yet child services were called twice anyway (and I lied to them about how I got injuries and refused to talk to them when they pressed) when other kids saw things that my parent did, when my parent didn’t know they were watching / could see. 

As a result, even now when I think it might be happening to me or possibly my kids, I don’t trust myself to really know WHAT is abusive and what makes me just uncomfortable, unless it is severe/classic or on an official checklist. I didn’t know if I was over-reacting to what he does because of my own personal history, and also don’t know if I’m not reacting ENOUGH and should try do something about it. I am trying to gauge if it really was concerning or not, or if my reaction and feelings to it are over/under blown. If I am being overly sensitive, if I need to protect them. Same reason for posting about that here. I don’t know what really is, or what I can/should do. I can totally get why someone would be upset or concerned (affaircare) if someone uses the word “abuse” lightly – I TOTALLY get it, because I have suffered classic abuse from a parent, and roll my eyes when I hear people saying (what I consider fighting) is abusive. 
My concerns as to verbal and emotional abuse to ME are based on my psych family member, who I hadn’t discussed issues or my relationship with H with at all, approaching me and saying she believes he is verbally and emotionally abusive to me. Afterwards I spoke to my own IC who told me they believe it is verbal/emotional abuse. Prior to this, I completely discounted and blew off several friends’ assertions that he is abusive to me for years, because they are protective types and only ever hear my side of the story.

. I would never want to deprive my kids of a loving, nurturing person or relationship. My concern is for their well being, as I was a victim of parental abuse and it affected me in more ways than I can ever say. There is some behavior that has me concerned the behavior could escalate if someone isn’t around to watch/ keep him in check. But yet again… I don’t know if my fears are based on my own experience(s) or realistic.

The reason I talked to my IC about it, because it is about my feelings of feeling lost, helpless, trapped. Not knowing what I can do, but especially I want to know what I SHOULD do. I didn’t really occur to me at all that what happens might be abusive, I just knew it made me uncomfortable, until my psych family member mentioned something to me about concern on how he treats ME. I then started thinking and wondering/worrying if it was perhaps abusive, not just something that made me uncomfortable. And was it just me? Or is it that behavior to the kids that makes me uncomfortable, as well?

Regarding one the lists posted above, for ME, the ones listed below are what regularly happens in our interactions (with exception of the 1st which only happened a few times):

refused to help when you were sick, injured, or pregnant (only physical one)
ignored your feelings
ridiculed or insulted women as a group
insulted your valued beliefs, religion, race, heritage, or class
withheld approval or affection as a punishment
criticised you, called you names, shouted at you
insulted your family or friends
humiliated you
refused to socialise with you
kept you from working, controlled your money, made all decisions
punished the children when he/she was angry at you
threatened to kidnap the children if you left him (not kidnap, but make sure I will never see them again)
manipulated you with lies and contradictions


The things that my family member specifically mentioned that were concerning to her, that are not on this list are: Severe gaslighting (I didn’t say that, you didn’t say that, that never happened, etc.), making me the subject of sarcastic jokes (that would definitely be insulting in any non-joke scenario), by ourselves, or in front of others, yelling at me or slamming things around (objects) when he doesn’t like something instead of discussing it, yelling at me / putting me down / making fun of me in front of friends or family members, giving me he “silent treatment” for days if I did something “wrong”… she’s observed all over many years since he does regardless of if others are around or not.

Compared to what my parent did to me, this is all very mild in comparison. I did not recognize it might even possibly be an issue of verbal or emotionally abuse until recently until this family member approached me.

I think what my IC meant by “reportable” is she doesn’t know anything legally what I can do to stop it (or if I try to do something if I can’t) but it isn’t something that a counselor/therapist is obligated to report as a mandated reporter. She is saying she doesn’t know at all in other senses, except she thinks what he does is damaging emotionally to them. I think she meant exactly what affaircare posted:
“So a counselor CAN NOT breach anything said in the session, and we can not quote the laws like perhaps a lawyer who specializes in domestic violence, but we are taught "This and This is reportable. Here is the standard by which you can tell you are required by law to report the situation." Counselors are experts in psychology, not law.”

I cannot give more specifics than What I am about to write as to how (it varies and is TMI), but I will risk more details in the interest of getting input from people who CAN tell me if it is concerning or not, and if I should reasonably be worried/concerned (about the behavior itself, I know no-one can tell me what H MIGHT do in certain situations). It involves immobilizing the children in a sudden and very forceful dominating manner when he gets very angry, and shouting at full volume 2-6 inches away from their faces. I have no proof, but I suspect the act of immobilizing left bruises a few times around 3 years ago at preschool, the bruises were in the right places if it was… but not since then (I did not know at the time, I noticed suspicious bruises but thought it probably happened at preschool during some sort of tantrum(s) – I had not seen him do this at this point… so I did not document this).

I will start document every day. I haven’t been documenting when nothing happens, but I will need to. That is a good idea.

Affaircare:
:” Here's the truth. Even if your husband IS abusive and you divorce, the kids ARE going to be with him at least half the time. And if you go to the judge and say, "But judge he's abusive! He yelled at XX when XX refused to do his homework and he called me names" the judge is going to think YOU are the nutty spouse for trying to influence custody with a story like that. The judge does not care. Every parent occasionally yells. Every parent does things the other parent doesn't really like. That's NO REASON to give you sole custody. If you can demonstrate that you can provide for the kids better, care for them better, you were their primary care giver, and it's in their best interests...it is conceivable you make get something like a 60/40 split. 

Sooooo...here is my strong word of advice for you: if you divorce, your kids ARE going to be living half their life with their father. He can make choices you don't like, and he won't have to report to you about it. He can even be a mean jerk to them, and you can't stop him or make him change. So if you want to do anything, teach your child how to have high self-esteem, how to identify abuse, how to deal with and handle an abusive person, and how to cope....because here's a fact: he is their FATHER. He is going to be in their lives as long as he lives”

Thanks especially for this. The first paragraph is what I am afraid of. I would not say anything unless I KNEW it was concerning, exactly for that reason.

The second paragraph true, and YES. I need to figure out those things for myself, so I can teach them. At this point I have no idea how.

THANKS ESPECIALLY FOR the Guardian Ad Litem suggestion. It isn’t anywhere near there yet, (timing) but it is good to know they exist and are objective and work for what is in the best interest of the child.

Thanks all, again.


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## sol_lost (Jan 13, 2014)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*



MissFroggie said:


> Can you speak to someone working for women suffering abuse? It's Woman's Aid etc here - not sure where you are.
> 
> How old are your children?
> 
> ...




MissFroggie, wow, really? Thanks for your input on this. I really need input from “normal” people who can tell me if what I am thinking is over-reacting or of concern.

*In your personal opinion (I know you are NOT an expert but have gone through some things) is his behavior to the kids concerning, or just his behavior to me? I just don't know what to think / what to do / how to handle this*

*You are COMPLETELY right about this :* “Being abused as a child (especially by a parent) really clouds our judgement of what is abusive and what is not. We feel we are over-reacting to call something abusive if it is less abusive than that which we have already endured.”
EXACTLY. I had no idea his behavior towards me might be considered abusive. I have no idea about anything else, unless it is as severe or worse than what is done to me or is physical.

How old are your children?
All under 8. I first *SAW* the immobilizing/yelling inches away from the face when the youngest was 4. In your opinion (I know you are NOT an expert) is this concerning? 

Please speak to a lawyer and the police too. This IS serious even on a legal level, all of them, but especially:
OK. Will talk to my atty again when I can save up $$ to do so. _Do I talk to family law attorney, do you think, or a different kind?_

humiliated you (depending on what he has done)
Nothing physical or drastic. Mostly make insulting jokes about me in front of family/friends, put me down in front of other people, including our kids. Tell embarrassing things (like things I didn’t know, things I did that made me feel stupid) to people while I am there, in the frame of it being a “cute” story. Over and over and over again. Sometimes I pretend to laugh along, other times I tell him it bothers me yet he “forgets” and tells the story again otherwise. Telling other people things I did that I was not happy about / ashamed of in the same manner (like if I accidentally broke something talking about my clumsiness, if I misplace things telling a story about it and laughing about it, if I did something bad/wrong/accidentally the same.) When he’s angry yelling at me (mostly when fighting), insulting me, calling me stupid or an idiot. He does this in front of our kids, but has also done this occasionally (rarely) in front of family or friends. This may be silly but it makes me feel humiliated because he is yelling at me like I’m a bad dog and it is embarrassing he is treating me that way, and I feel powerless to stand up to him in front of people to continue a fight. In front of the kids it’s not embarrassing but it greatly upsets me, as again I feel like he is yelling at me like I’m a bad dog, and it teaches them to not respect me, and when I respond he tells me I’m starting a fight. However, if he finds out I even tell a friend about an argument we had, he then gets upset about this and then refuses to be around my friend because they will “judge” him. 

kept you from working, controlled your money, made all decisions (This is very relevant because it helps define what help you need) Mostly made all decisions. Controlled money in the way of use, making it so I have to pay for things.

punished the children when he/she was angry at you (HUGELY RELEVANT!). Jut for clarification, this is not direct punishment because he is mad at me... this is mostly he is angry at me, so his fuse is short and it doesn't *APPEAR* that he tries to control it too much when it is. So if a kid talks to him his fuse is VERY short and yells at them if they even ask him a question, and will immediately punish them (non-physically) for anything he doesn’t like (not DIRECTLY I’m mad at mom so you’re being punished, it’s more like… if you irritate me when I’m mad you’ll be immediately punished). I have never seen him do the immobilization /yelling thing in this situation (that is mostly when he feels they are misbehaving).

threatened to kidnap the children if you left him (not kidnap, but make sure I will never see them again) (AGAIN, HUGELY RELEVANT!)
Thank you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

A parent is an adult. He has no reason shouting in a child's face. He's an adult. He should be able to maintain composure and outthink a child to get the child to learn. He wasn't teaching your child - he was punishing him to make himself feel better. That's abuse.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

The thing about bring authorities into it is this: They will act; they're required to. And he will then be on notice. He'll KNOW that you are now keeping track of every action that you can reliably keep records of, and that the authorities (the only people who can make his life uncomfortable) are, basically, working for YOU now. Hopefully, that will be enough to urge him to control himself, so they no longer receive any abusive behavior. After all, he can refrain from yelling at his boss, can't he? And, in the end, if he can't control himself, you will have had a long record of documentation that, should it be necessary, will allow you to legally remove the kids from him.

NONE of that will happen if you don't go to the authorities.


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## sol_lost (Jan 13, 2014)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

Thanks all for the input and feedback. It is so good to get feedback from others who are not me and can be objective, and from those that don't have to be careful about what they say legally, etc. I am not happy there are others who have been abused by parents/have suffered abuse, but I am glad I am not the only one, and that others have experienced difficulty telling what is really, really not OK and what is "normal". Sometimes I feel so stupid for not being able to tell.

I plan on taking most of this advice. I think going to the police is a good idea, but I don't think I should in this situation unless I have evidence and something "reportable". I have no criminal records, but there was an incident they were involved in when I had bad post-partum depression, and I want anything I go to them with to be taken seriously. 

I think I need to tell an atty. Maybe the atty I saw previously will agree to see me for 1/2 an hour, and answer a list of written questions. I COULD go get a free consult, but my understanding is most of those are ppl just starting out in that field and trying to build up experience/case lists. I know 2 people who got burned BADLY from getting advice from inexperienced attorneys, so thus I am wary of getting free advice that might not be good. The one I saw before was family law, so I think I will need to see him again as he knows background? Write all my questions. Call and see if he will advise. Will still be a couple of months but not as bad as paying for a full hour... can at least try...

How people have reacted to what he's said/done in front of them: 1 friend - glared, snipped back, said nothing. She hates him but does not give me details. Another friend - says nothing, thinks he is "the devil" for that and his politics, hates him. (both friends are judgmental defensive types). Sibling - told me she doesn't like how I am treated but is says is trying not to be judgmental. Cousin - well that one is the psych who talked to me about it out of the blue. Another friend - told him off, but took it as friendly joking banter. Parent who abused me and has witnessed fights (and was abused themselves and saw much worse abuse as a child - but blocked ALL of it out, and blocked out everything they ever did to me out, found out from my Aunt about parent's FOO) told me there are people much worse out there and I need to be a "good wife" and satisfy all my H's needs. Other parent mentioned doesn't like how I am treated sometimes.

THANK YOU for the checklist. I plan on using most of it.

Yes, they are too young for preference input.

THanks for the advice. I need to record daily, regardless of what (if anything happens). I am allowed to record things in our own home if it might be for my own protection, right??? Even though CA is a 2 party state?

Had a recent session with IC. WOW I think she is good. On top of this, I have anxiety/depression issues. She asked me if I am afraid of H. I told her not physically, but for cycles/periods of time, I am - will yell at me, criticize me, embarrass me, and terrified he will try to leave and take the kids. It goes in cycles. Not right now, but for several months last year. Afraid of being around him, afraid of NOT being around him. She asked me... gently... why do I think I formed a relationship with someone I feel I need desperately, yet am afraid of? I asked if she thought H was always like that, or if I made him like that (through years of interaction) - she said she thought both.

*CRAP I "married" my abusive parent. * I just didn't realize it until this last week. I didn't even suspect the behavior towards me was not OK until this last year, as there was no physical abuse, and the emotional / verbal mistreatment is nothing in comparison (abusive parent has said things like they wish I was aborted, and wanted me to kill myself).

I need to get where I don't feel I NEED other people to be OK. I need to be able to recognize what is OK and what is not.

Thank goodness for my new IC. I was in tears - said I need to know how to tell if what my H does and says is harmful to my kids, how do I deal with it, how do I make it stop. I care most about how it affects them, they are the most important thing. She gently told me she understands I can't tell, and that she will tell me. She will let me know.

Sorry if this has gotten way too personal. I really, really appreciate the advice, support and feedback. It is so relieving that there are some others out there who can relate....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

Usually, you can record anything you want to, it's just a matter of what you can do with it after. If nothing else, you can give the recordings to your lawyer so he can better defend you.

You could also TELL your H that you will now be recording all interactions; it may keep him under control just like he is when he's at work or in public.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

You can hire someone to install a camera/recorder in your home for security reasons and just keep saving the tape.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

I only suggest that because someone said something about him taking or breaking the recorder. It would be harder if it were up by the ceiling.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*



MissFroggie said:


> You can, but in the UK the people living in that house HAVE to be informed of them and unless they have been installed by the police there have to be signs up saying it is there. Otherwise it would not be admissible in court and can be an offense in itself. Be careful with that one!
> 
> One of the reasons used for my recordings being admissible was that the recording device was with me at all times - I was essentially recording MYSELF and MY interactions. Anything said while I was there was not seen as private FROM me. If it had been put in a room and I had left, or recording while I was not there, it could have backfired on me.
> 
> ...


Not sure about the UK, but it is legal within the US, as long as it is video only and not including audio. There is the kicker, does it include audio recording as well, as wiretapping laws come into play with audio, but don't apply for some reason when it is video only, which is why notification signs are not required for video only and surveillance cameras don't require notice generally.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

meh, that's about the same as saying to the police when they arrive after you changed the locks 'really? he doesn't have his keys? I gave them to him, I can't believe he doesn't remember...'

Nothing you can prove in court either way.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

*Re: Legal impliations emotional damage to kids, but abuse is not "reportable"*

I think this thread should be in the Family & Parenting Forum, not CWI. Maybe I'm wrong.


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