# Financial Responsibility to step children



## Cyclist

*Step Father Financial responsibilities*

First let me say its actually not a step father situation but I am living with my girlfriend. We have 5 children, all teenagers. 3 are mine. A 19 year old boy and twin 16 year old girls. She has a 16 year old boy and a 17 year old girl. 

My children live with their mother. I pay 2k in support. 

Her children go back and forth freely between the two houses. Her x pays 215.00 a month

Its CAR time. As you can see we have a lot of 16 year olds.

I have been saving for my twins for over a year and have put together a decent amount for a car. About 12-14k.

She purchased a car for her daughter for 3k a year and a half ago. Of course her daughter wants a better car as she sees my daughters looking for a car.

Its my GF's contention that it should be even. That I should not spend as much on my daughters car and spend more on her daughters. My ex will not be contributing as she does not make very much. Her ex does ok and did contribute to the first car. (long story...they purchased a 6k car for the 17 year old when she turned 16 and she got in an accident and totaled it....the 3k car was the replacement)

I said that major purchases should be up to her and her ex. After multiple arguments I agreed to contribute 2k and also purchase the existing car for my son. (thats another story...my son and I are not close at all but I am willing to get him transportation)

So the question is what is my financial responsibility to step children and major purchases? I certainly contribute more than equal amounts to the household and have not trouble giving some here and there to her daughter or son. But this car thing has me a little miffed.

My position is I give this 2k amount and she is going to put in 2k and with the sale of the existing that gives 6500.00. The rest is up to her ex husband who can either save his money for a more expensive car or he can go borrow the money. Its not my fault he has not saved for this. I did.

But my GF does not agree. Everything should be "even" and I should not purchase a car for my twins that costs more than what she and her ex can afford.

Its gotten to the point of ridiculousness and everyone is all pissed off.

Any input from anyone in this situation? I have read online that major financial issues with step children should not be the step parents issue. Wondering if anyone else is up against this?

My contention is she should be happy I am contributing anything. Nobody else is contributing to my kids car or anything else for that matter.


----------



## Cyclist

Any advice on how much financial repsonibility we as a step father have for step children?

Step is 17. Wants a new car. I have twin daughters I have saved for a year for a car. Steps mom says I should make it even for all. I disagree and while I am willing to give some its up to her and her ex for major purchases.

I have no problem with regular maintenance and household expenses. I even give freely now and then for an extra here and there. 

I drew the line at major expenses.

Any thoughts?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I'm not a guy but my feeling as a mother is unless you've raised the child as your own since he was very young then you have no financial obligation at all toward him. It is not your problem if stepson needs a car..he has a father of his own to help him with that. It's not fair that he should have the help of 3 parents (his father,his mother and then you) when your girls only have the help of two parents.


----------



## Cyclist

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm not a guy but my feeling as a mother is unless you've raised the child as your own since he was very young then you have no financial obligation at all toward him. It is not your problem if stepson needs a car..he has a father of his own to help him with that. It's not fair that he should have the help of 3 parents (his father,his mother and then you) when your girls only have the help of two parents.


We have been together 5 years.

You know thinking about it I think she is more upset and a little jealous that my daughters (sharing a car) just may have a nicer car than her daughter. She is concerned about "her daughters feelings" 

If her daughter pulled up in my driveway in a Ferrari that her dad purchased for her I would feel so happy for her and not even one iota of resentment. 

I feel like I have done the right thing by saving my money over a period and since her father did not I am being penalized for it. 

There are other relationship issues and this is just the icing on the cake.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Your wife doesn't want to disappoint her little girl,of course. Well,that's life.Disappointments happen. Why wasn't she putting money away like you? Or was she under the impression you were saving for all the kids from marital funds?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

yeah,those details were helpful for sure. It didn't change my view though,just made me a bit more firm about it.


----------



## Cyclist

ScarletBegonias said:


> Your wife doesn't want to disappoint her little girl,of course. Well,that's life.Disappointments happen. Why wasn't she putting money away like you? Or was she under the impression you were saving for all the kids from marital funds?


Our finances have not been all together. I have my own business and have multiple separate accts. Then we have accts together and she has a separate savings and cking she uses for her kids.

Yes she has save some. Just not as much. The deal was supposed to be her daughter drives the existing for another year to graduation. Then she gets new going into college. Well when it came to the realization that my daughters may be getting a nicer car she and her daughter and her dad decided she wants a better car. While her car is not fantastic it really is a cute little car we got an exceptional deal on and truthfully a year and a half ago its what was affordable.

The separate accts has not been an issue until this. Now all the finances are an issue.

And its not that I am spending so much that it is hurting me financially or us for that matter. We are in the best financial shape we have ever been in since we have been together.

What was a proud moment for me to give freely to my daughters has fast become a cluster of bitterness.


----------



## Hicks

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

Well, I would say if it all has to be even, then her daughter has to share the car just like your daughters are doing. Seems to me everyone is getting about $6,000 worth of car.

Now, I think you are making the following mistakes.
1. Not recognizing that this is not about fairness. This is your g/f is guilty that she got divorced and does not want her daughter harmed in any way.
2. Giving your girlfriend any money is a mistake.
3. Buying all these kids cars in the first place is a mistake. Everyone is arguing over something that they should be happy to get.
4. Buying a 16 year old $14,000 is a mistake. Regardless of your girlfiend's input, you should be buying them a cheaper car any way.
5. Just tell your girlfiend what you decided, do it, and tell her "that's the decision I made" and then you let the chips fall. How could it be worth it to even have a conversation like this.


----------



## TurtleRun

You saved ... she didn't. It's not fair for her to put you in this position.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

The entitlement is sickening,IMO. A deal is a deal. Princess can drive the agreed upon vehicle til it's time for college. 

How hard is it to understand? Your wife and her daughter agreed to this and it doesn't matter if your daughters get a nicer vehicle. 

ALL of these children are lucky they are getting a car at all. If the b**ching continues I'd be one who would pull out on all deals other than what I promised my own children. But that's just me because I can't stand spoiled brats.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Cyclist:

I thought you were getting out because your GF dislikes your children and never treated them well in general?


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

Cyclist:

Really. You're surprised by this? This is about a whole lot more than a car.....is your other thread still active?


----------



## karole

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

Why are you still with this woman?


----------



## Malpheous

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

1.) Why are you buying them cars? Maybe it's just where I grew up. But I figure if they want a car then they need a job.

2.) Your kids are your responsibility, the same as hers are hers.


----------



## Cyclist

Sorry folks did not mean to mislead and not give enough info. Just was looking to secure what I already thought was the right viewpoint.

Why not.....things have actually settle down. After the death of her father she really has settled and been trying. Until this issue. Then over the last two weeks or so it's been kinda back to the same ole and this seems to be the biggest issue which made everything else come flooding back.

People just don't change unless they sincerely want to. I've learned that through all of this.

My daughters and her sat down a couple of weeks ago and seemed to iron out the issues they have had. But during the last few days I can see that she is still holding a grudge. This car thing just shows how selfish things are.

I got killed in the economic downturn and over the last 18 months have had a pretty massive turnaround. It gives me quite a bit of joy to be able to do what I've done and to give to my daughters and to be able to do the things we are able to do now. But she is trying to stealing my joy and she doesn't even see it.

It got so heated last night I slept on the couch most of the night. And today did not feel like working so in took the day off to spend some time alone. All this over a car? It's ridiculous.

Your right scarlet, spoiled. Both her and her mom


----------



## Cosmos

If your step children have a father, it is his and your W's responsibilities to provide for them - not you.


----------



## Blondilocks

So, step-daughter has her own set of wheels while your two daughters have to share a car. That's what's not fair in my book. Tell your wife to get off her high horse and ask her how she would like to have to share a car.

Maybe your wife and her daughter can trade in both of their vehicles and share one nicer car.


----------



## Cyclist

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

All excellent points folks.

Karole you are right. I've tried really hard and it just doesn't work. We have such spectacular good times but then the times like this drag us down horribly. 

Why not....actually I'm not surprised.

Malpheous truthfully I want to give my kids a bit of freedom. Their mother works constantly. Both are good kids, good grades, no trouble issues. The deal is I buy he car and they pay he expenses with their part time jobs.

Truthfully they would be happy with a cheaper car. It's Thor dad. Not a flashy thing.... This is a ford focus for goodness sake. It's newer and dad doesn't want to worry about mechanical issues for a while. I'm spending a bit more now and expect them to drive it into college and beyond. It's the only one I'm buying.

Thank you all for the input. Confirms my stance is not cazy.


----------



## Cyclist

Blondilocks said:


> So, step-daughter has her own set of wheels while your two daughters have to share a car. That's what's not fair in my book. Tell your wife to get off her high horse and ask her how she would like to have to share a car.
> 
> Maybe your wife and her daughter can trade in both of their vehicles and share one nicer car.


Great idea.


----------



## Malpheous

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

I'd get them each their own though... $3500 or less. They'll scratch, dent, scrape and otherwise jack up a car for at least the first year of driving independently. Trying to share a car isn't going to last either.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

Cyclist, with a handle like yours I'm surprised you are providing cars for your kids at all  

When I turned 16 my dad saw it as an opportunity to get a work truck that I would pay the maintenance on and keep it running, so he bought whatever the fck kind he wanted and it was my privilege to be allowed to use it if I showed I was responsible. 

I think you should do whatever you want to do in this situation, it is your own disposable income and your own discretionary way to spend how you like.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Tell her that whatever her daughter's father is willing to put toward the twins' car you will put toward her daughter's car. If the ex chips in $1,000 for your girls then you'll chip in the same for his girls. Why on earth would you spend money on another man's kid if he's not spending money on yours?


----------



## Cyclist

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*



Malpheous said:


> I'd get them each their own though... $3500 or less. They'll scratch, dent, scrape and otherwise jack up a car for at least the first year of driving independently. Trying to share a car isn't going to last either.


Actually I did not add that I have an older semi worn out lil pick up truck that they are getting as the second vehicle.


----------



## Blondilocks

Cyclist, are you trying to start a war between your twins? Bad idea to give a car and an old truck.

Then again, maybe your girls are joined at the hip and never go anywhere without the other.


----------



## Fabiovelli

She is not his step daughter. She is his girlfriends daughter. You have been with gf for 5 years. How long have you cohabitated? How much is gf kicking in for your daughters car?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Fabiovelli said:


> She is not his step daughter. She is his girlfriends daughter. You have been with gf for 5 years. How long have you cohabitated? How much is gf kicking in for your daughters car?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh that's right! I completely forgot that he's not even married to her.


----------



## Cyclist

WorkingOnMe said:


> Tell her that whatever her daughter's father is willing to put toward the twins' car you will put toward her daughter's car. If the ex chips in $1,000 for your girls then you'll chip in the same for his girls. Why on earth would you spend money on another man's kid if he's not spending money on yours?


BINGO Give that man the prize!

That has been my thought from the start. 

Not my issue the man has not saved his money up like I have and his daughter is juuuuuuuuuust a tad spoiled.

AND they (GF and her ex) have a soon to be 16 year old son. The discussion is just starting about that issue.

Ughhhhhh.

Who sings that song "I gotta get put of this place.....if it's the last thing I ever do..."


----------



## Cyclist

Blondilocks said:


> Cyclist, are you trying to start a war between your twins? Bad idea to give a car and an old truck.
> 
> Then again, maybe your girls are joined at the hip and never go anywhere without the other.


They are cool with it. They are together most of the time. Deal is we buy a newer car this year and next year maybe something fun like a jeep or lil vert. Something dad could steal now n then...


----------



## Cyclist

Fabiovelli said:


> She is not his step daughter. She is his girlfriends daughter. You have been with gf for 5 years. How long have you cohabitated? How much is gf kicking in for your daughters car?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lived together going on three years


----------



## Blondilocks

Cyclist said:


> They are cool with it. They are together most of the time. Deal is we buy a newer car this year and next year maybe something fun like a jeep or lil vert. Something dad could steal now n then...


Ah, so that's the plan, huh? Good luck getting any dad time.


----------



## Cyclist

Blondilocks said:


> Ah, so that's the plan, huh? Good luck getting any dad time.


Yeah I know once they become mobile it's tough to keep them in one place. Sunday morning breakfast is a standard. They are always there no matter what


----------



## Blondilocks

Sorry, I meant getting dad time with the jeep or vert. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your girls.


----------



## Cyclist

Blondilocks said:


> Sorry, I meant getting dad time with the jeep or vert. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your girls.


I'm trying. It's been difficult with the tension with the ex and the tens ion with GF. I don't have much of a relationship with my son so I am trying very hard with the twins. There is a balance between giving to much and making sure they appreciate it and are do not think they are owed. Trying to reach that balance.


----------



## Nucking Futs

I think she's right. It's unfair to spend more on one set of kids than the other. Since her and her ex have already spent 9k on 17 yo d I think it's appropriate for you to spend that much on each of your kids. EACH. _If_ you go over that amount then GF may have something to ***** about. 

Just to clarify, when I say I think she's right, I mean she's completely wrong of course. You don't owe her d anything. You were going to kick her to the curb over this very same attitude of jealousy to your kids when her dad died, and you were only going to stay with her temporarily until she was past the initial stages of grief. I suggest you revisit your old threads, look again at the way she's treated your kids, and understand that this is just more of the same. Then kick her to the curb like you were going to a few months ago and move on.


----------



## Cyclist

Nucking Futs said:


> I think she's right. It's unfair to spend more on one set of kids than the other. Since her and her ex have already spent 9k on 17 yo d I think it's appropriate for you to spend that much on each of your kids. EACH. _If_ you go over that amount then GF may have something to ***** about.
> 
> Just to clarify, when I say I think she's right, I mean she's completely wrong of course. You don't owe her d anything. You were going to kick her to the curb over this very same attitude of jealousy to your kids when her dad died, and you were only going to stay with her temporarily until she was past the initial stages of grief. I suggest you revisit your old threads, look again at the way she's treated your kids, and understand that this is just more of the same. Then kick her to the curb like you were going to a few months ago and move on.


Point taken.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Cyclist, I like your gf's moxie. I need to take lessons.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

I repeat----this isn't just about a car. Come on Cyclist....talk.


----------



## Cyclist

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> I repeat----this isn't just about a car. Come on Cyclist....talk.


This is much deeper than a car purchase and has been for some time. This is the tip of the iceberg. Even though things were better for a while this attitude with my kids goes back a long way and now all of the old things are coming up. Stupid of me to think things were getting better. 

Another "discussion" ensued when I got home and the college subject came up. " you mean to tell me if my ex does not have money for college and my daughter wants to go you will not contribute?" I said no....she would have to get a loan like the rest of us had to. She hasn't spoken to me in 2 hours.

So with all this I need to start my plans back up about moving on. Ts a shame and depressing. She could have been so much more. 
But when I met her she didn't know Sinatra or red wine. What did I expect?


----------



## SoVeryLost

My ex-husband has 3 kids from his first marriage. Things started out okay in the beginning, but their mother didn't like me and encouraged them not to listen to me, respect me, etc. Made things very tense. Fast forward several years and my ex and I had a child. We always maintained separate accounts during the 10 years we were together. Once our son was born he never contributed a penny....not one single penny to anything involving our son. Since I made more than he did he still expected me to finance not only all of the expenses for our son, but for things for his other three children as well. This was always a point of tension in our household. 

Because I can empathize with that horrible air of tension in a divided household, I'll just throw in my $0.02 here. I think you're screwed no matter what you do.

If you don't contribute equally to all of the vehicles that are up for debate, your gf sees you as the bad guy. So does her daughter.

If you contribute equally, that means you're contributing less to a vehicle for your twins, and they may be upset with you, but likely they'll be moreso upset with your gf and her daughter, creating even more tension.You'll also not be happy because the funds you saved will have been mis-allocated in your eyes.

If you have any thoughts of leaving, do you really want to invest financially in a vehicle for your gf's daughter? That money will be out the window with no chance of recouping any of it. 

I would explain to her that with the issues in your relationship you're weary of contributing financially at all to a vehicle for her daughter. I'd revoke the previously stipulated $2k you agreed to as well. It's not your responsibility. Especially under present circumstances.


----------



## Openminded

Since you appeared to be ready to walk when your girlfriend's father became seriously ill, I'm guessing that woke her up (to the fact that you might really leave her) and she's been on her best behavior. So that you'll marry her and buy her that house. You can't really be surprised by all of this. It was predictable.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I'm rolling my eyes here. Look, actions speak louder than words. Especially in your case since you've (I'll put it nicely) "bluffed" so many times before. So I'll just say that I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## EleGirl

Nucking Futs said:


> I think she's right. It's unfair to spend more on one set of kids than the other. Since her and her ex have already spent 9k on 17 yo d I think it's appropriate for you to spend that much on each of your kids. EACH. _If_ you go over that amount then GF may have something to ***** about.
> 
> Just to clarify, when I say I think she's right, I mean she's completely wrong of course. You don't owe her d anything. You were going to kick her to the curb over this very same attitude of jealousy to your kids when her dad died, and you were only going to stay with her temporarily until she was past the initial stages of grief. I suggest you revisit your old threads, look again at the way she's treated your kids, and understand that this is just more of the same. Then kick her to the curb like you were going to a few months ago and move on.


Not only should he spend as much on each of his twins, I think that the GF and her ex need to pitch in to help him spend that much.

Isn't that the equivalent of what she is asking him to do?


----------



## LongWalk

Does she use sex to gain ground these arguments about material things.

I have not ready your other threads.

Who is going to pay for her children's college? You shouldn't pay anything. And your girlfriend should contribute more or less equally to your household.

Cyclist? Do you ride a bike?

All these kids having to have car to go to college. Unnecessary.


----------



## EleGirl

You need to end this relationship. She's trying very hard to use you financially. You know that.


----------



## Omego

Cyclist said:


> Another "discussion" ensued when I got home and the college subject came up. " you mean to tell me if my ex does not have money for college and my daughter wants to go you will not contribute?" I said no....she would have to get a loan like the rest of us had to. She hasn't spoken to me in 2 hours.
> 
> So with all this I need to start my plans back up about moving on. Ts a shame and depressing. She could have been so much more.
> But when I met her she didn't know Sinatra or red wine. What did I expect?


You seem to be really kind-hearted and fair-minded. I would say your girlfriend is probably the opposite. She is taking advantage of you to the detriment of your own children.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but it really seems that way. Please get out of this relationship and focus on your own children...


----------



## NextTimeAround

Omego said:


> You seem to be really kind-hearted and fair-minded. I would say your girlfriend is probably the opposite. She is taking advantage of you to the detriment of your own children.
> 
> I'm sorry to be so blunt but it really seems that way. Please get out of this relationship and focus on your own children...


Agreed. The pu$$y can't be that good. 

And remember, your children are your children forever. As we know, romantic partners of whatever sort come and go.


----------



## TurtleRun

Cyclist,

If you had rasied this teenager since she was little I'd understand her asking but this lady isn't even your wife. A few years of living together all of a sudden you are suppose to be financially responsible for her child's future ? That teen has her own set of parents to do that for her. Everyone here is right , she sees you as a piggy bank.


----------



## unbelievable

Her daughter got a $6000 car and a $3000 car, for a total transportation investment of $9000. Your twins will share a $14K car, which amounts to a $7K transportation investment per child. If your gf wants things to be even, she needs to pony up $4K to split between the twins. If your daughters have a nicer car, the reason is not "unfairness" but the laws of physics. Her daughter's car was in motion and struck something hard. This is a life lesson. People who wish to drive nice cars avoid hitting things with them or running off the road in them. If you are unhappy with the transportation your parents provide, the intelligent course of action is to get a job and buy the vehicle of your choice.


----------



## Cyclist

Her feelings are that as a couple we share everything. Income is ours....not mine and hers. She also feels that since we have blended our families everything should be equal when giving to the children. Christmas, birthdays, etc.

I have explained that I agree to a certain extent and I'm not here to alienate any of the kids. I've given pretty freely. But this is a major purchase and I can't do it all for everyone. In last nights argument she said her ex can not afford to contribute (this is new news) just like my ex can't. My response is then your daughter drives what you can afford and I'm willing to help with the 2000.00. If that's not good enough my suggestion is that both her and her ex save some money over the next 6 months to a year and then do what they want.

Her issue is her daughter "wants" a newer car. 

Then she said "we have the money in our accts to get her a nicer car"

We do. We have an emergency fund with 15k in it. I said under no circumstances are we going to spend that money on a car. 

So at 2am I am woken up by a crying GF saying I do not meet her needs and she does not feel she can talk to me. 

Yeah because she is not getting her way.

I'm being manipulated by her and my love for her daughter. She is trying not to but it's very clear there is an association between love and money and the price of a damn car.

I'm a bit worn out by all of it. Basically I said I'm going to do nothing at this time. No money gets spent on her daughters car. She can drive what she has.


----------



## Cyclist

unbelievable said:


> Her daughter got a $6000 car and a $3000 car, for a total transportation investment of $9000. Your twins will share a $14K car, which amounts to a $7K transportation investment per child. If your gf wants things to be even, she needs to pony up $4K to split between the twins. If your daughters have a nicer car, the reason is not "unfairness" but the laws of physics. Her daughter's car was in motion and struck something hard. This is a life lesson. People who wish to drive nice cars avoid hitting things with them or running off the road in them. If you are unhappy with the transportation your parents provide, the intelligent course of action is to get a job and buy the vehicle of your choice.


Your actually right on and I pointed this out yesterday.


----------



## Cyclist

NextTimeAround said:


> Agreed. The pu$$y can't be that good.
> 
> And remember, your children are your children forever. As we know, romantic partners of whatever sort come and go.


It's solid but not worth all this. It's hell being in love with someone and having all this added garbage. We could be, and have been really good together.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

You need to get out. Be alone for awhile and work on the relationship with your kids.


----------



## Omego

Cyclist said:


> Her feelings are that as a couple we share everything. Income is ours....not mine and hers. She also feels that since we have blended our families everything should be equal when giving to the children. Christmas, birthdays, etc.


This is simply not an acceptable opinion. You're not married. Why should your income be hers as well? In what way have you really blended the families? I don't believe families are truly ever blended in these situations (ok, there are surely some exceptions and that's very nice, but probably not the norm). Fundamentally, you are responsible for your children and she is responsible for hers unless you become the legal guardian of her children or vice versa.

You could conceivably blend income if you were married and both of you were contributing financially to the marriage, or if she were at least pulling her share with respect to her *own children*. 

I can understand the idea of sharing everything when two people are starting out together, and agreements are made such as the man working outside of the home and the woman staying home to take care of the children, for example. But your situation has nothing to do with this.

And then there's the whole issue of her daughter being "owed" an expensive car..... :scratchhead:


----------



## Nucking Futs

Cyclist said:


> Her feelings are that as a couple we share everything. Income is ours....not mine and hers. She also feels that since we have blended our families everything should be equal when giving to the children. Christmas, birthdays, etc.
> 
> I have explained that I agree to a certain extent and I'm not here to alienate any of the kids. I've given pretty freely. But this is a major purchase and I can't do it all for everyone. In last nights argument she said her ex can not afford to contribute (this is new news) just like my ex can't. My response is then your daughter drives what you can afford and I'm willing to help with the 2000.00. If that's not good enough my suggestion is that both her and her ex save some money over the next 6 months to a year and then do what they want.
> 
> Her issue is her daughter "wants" a newer car.
> 
> Then she said "we have the money in our accts to get her a nicer car"
> 
> *We do. We have an emergency fund with 15k in it. I said under no circumstances are we going to spend that money on a car. *
> 
> So at 2am I am woken up by a crying GF saying I do not meet her needs and she does not feel she can talk to me.
> 
> Yeah because she is not getting her way.
> 
> I'm being manipulated by her and my love for her daughter. She is trying not to but it's very clear there is an association between love and money and the price of a damn car.
> 
> I'm a bit worn out by all of it. Basically I said I'm going to do nothing at this time. No money gets spent on her daughters car. She can drive what she has.


If she has access to this account you need to pull out the amount you put into it and put it in an account she can't access. She'll spend it if you don't, in her mind she's entitled to it.


----------



## daffodilly

QUOTE=Why Not Be Happy?;8960770]You need to get out. Be alone for awhile and work on the relationship with your kids.[/QUOTE]

Cyclist, pls listen to what the majority of posters are saying. This woman is using you and your children will be the ones paying for your mistake. End it now and focus on your daughters and son. She is manipulating and using you as a financial source. Despite your love for her and her daughter, please step away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cyclist

Nucking Futs said:


> If she has access to this account you need to pull out the amount you put into it and put it in an account she can't access. She'll spend it if you don't, in her mind she's entitled to it.


I handle the finances for the household. Primarily because she doesn't like to deal with it and Im a numbers guy.

We have multiple accounts together. Cking for monthly expenses and three savings accounts. One for Xmas and vacations, one for emergency fund, and one for special purchases. We save 20-25 pct of the income that is deposited into our acct. I deposit 6k per month, she deposits 4. This leaves her with about 5-600 per month that goes into her personal acct. she has a personal cking for misc stuff (usually monies she spends on her kids) and a savings acct. we use mint to manage the money and I highly recommend that app.

I have my own company. As a consultant I have multiple income streams. My income is about 4-5 times hers. So I have a corp acct and a child support acct and a couple of savings accounts. My own emergency fund, long term savings, and an acct I save for things like a car for my kids.

My daughters have a debit card and an allowance that they do chores for at our home. Since they live with their mother and she struggles financially I am relied on for most of their extra expenses like clothes, braces, etc. I also pay 2k a month in C support and Allimony. 

I weekly deposit funds electronically in our combined acct and manage the savings and expenses. 

Since she has been divorced, going on 6 years, she has never had the amount of money she has available now. I have made a tremendous financial turnaround as I got killed in the downturn and to her credit she has gotten a promotion and also makes more money. She does work her tail off and is not lazy in the least.

This has all worked perfectly. When we go on vacation the funds are there. When we have Xmas it's all funded. Etc etc.

her sticking point is so much of her money goes to the monthly expenses that she can not save at the level I can. BUT she also does not want to give up vacations and a 400 a month clothing allowance and the other things that pad our budget. 

I guess I'm saying the separation was working really well right up to the time the car issue came out and now she would like MORE of my finances involved in US.


----------



## Cyclist

daffodilly said:


> QUOTE=Why Not Be Happy?;8960770]You need to get out. Be alone for awhile and work on the relationship with your kids.


Cyclist, pls listen to what the majority of posters are saying. This woman is using you and your children will be the ones paying for your mistake. End it now and focus on your daughters and son. She is manipulating and using you as a financial source. Despite your love for her and her daughter, please step away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

What's so hard about that is I have always been able to see right through woman that use men for just their money. She does this with such subtlety. She does want a great relationship but she also wants to be taken care of. She can be amazingly pleasant and fun and all the things you would want in a partner. She beautiful, responsible, and works hard and makes a good living.

But she's jealous of my kids, over protective of her daughter, and now manipulating my feelings. 

And I'm a hopeless romantic and have a massive heart. She knows it. I always hope beyond hope things will improve.


----------



## Openminded

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> You need to get out. Be alone for awhile and work on the relationship with your kids.


True. Exactly what needs to happen. And that has been suggested on his previous threads. The problem is he gets ready to leave, gets tons of support from here, and then backs away from it.


----------



## jld

Cyclist, if you lost all your money and could not make it back, how do you think things would go in your relationship?

If you cannot leave her (and maybe you just cannot), at least hold firm to your financial boundaries. It is in the long term best interest of both of you. Stress that to her, and remain impassive to her pleas. 

When she wakes you in the night, hold her. And go back to sleep.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Cyclist said:


> BUT she also does not want to give up vacations and a 400 a month clothing allowance and the other things that pad our budget.


I think I'm gonna vomit. vacations and a $400 a month clothing allowance? Really?? And she couldn't manage to scrape together a sizable savings for a car???

$400 a month.On clothing.


----------



## TurtleRun

Your a number guys... you did the numbers and know she is manipulating you and she knows you know but your a "hopeless romantic". 

It seems you are agreeing to this abusive relationship. 

So what are you trying to get out the post ? What do you want to do ?


----------



## TurtleRun

ScarletBegonias said:


> I think I'm gonna vomit. vacations and a $400 a month clothing allowance? Really?? And she couldn't manage to scrape together a sizable savings for a car???
> 
> $400 a month.On clothing.


:iagree: Spoiled.


----------



## Cyclist

jld said:


> Cyclist, if you lost all your money and could not make it back, how do you think things would go in your relationship?
> 
> If you cannot leave her (and maybe you just cannot), at least hold firm to your financial boundaries. It is in the long term best interest of both of you. Stress that to her, and remain impassive to her pleas.
> 
> When she wakes you in the night, hold her. And go back to sleep.


She has been with me when I have been broke. Really broke. I mean I always had an income and always paid my CS but there were times that were pretty tough. Like so many I got hurt very badly in the financial crisis. In the middle of it all went through a divorce. Tough times.

She's not here for the money. She's not like that even though it seems that way with this situation. She's pretty frugal and though we have more expendable income now she does not go crazy spending like some woman may do.


I think her main push is she dies not want to disappoint her daughter. That her daughter should have the same things that mine do. And hers always has and more. She has tons of freedom, is a good kid, has a job, decent student, etc. all of her friends have newer cars so I am sure that is pushing her buttons a bit.

And her mother knows I am making good money now. The money is available. But I do not have it allocated for that purpose as I never expected that to be my issue. I have no problem giving a little. But the entire expense is not my responsibility. 

Yes I have trouble leaving her. I'm caught in limbo. As string as I can be under a lot of situations she is a bit of my weakness.


----------



## Cyclist

ScarletBegonias said:


> I think I'm gonna vomit. vacations and a $400 a month clothing allowance? Really?? And she couldn't manage to scrape together a sizable savings for a car???
> 
> $400 a month.On clothing.


Oh I'm sure she could save more. If that was what she wanted to do. If she made that a priority. But it hasn't been. Not until my daughters car purchase came up. Sure her daughter has said she would like a newer car and my advice was wait until graduation and save up and get her one. That has gone out the window.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

lol I need to unsubscribe...I'm rolling my eyes so much over this woman it's giving me a headache 

Good Luck Cyclist,truly. I hope it works out for you!


----------



## jld

She might just be jealous that your girls have a better father than hers does. You seem like a great guy, Cyclist, and she wishes her ex had been that. Good dads can be hard to come by.

You know your financial situation and her and the whole deal best. On the whole, we are all telling you you have no obligation to her kids. In reality, I am sure that feels different.

I think whatever you decide to do will be reasonable. You have been successful in your financial life, and I am sure you will manage here, too.


----------



## Cyclist

TurtleRun said:


> Your a number guys... you did the numbers and know she is manipulating you and she knows you know but your a "hopeless romantic".
> 
> It seems you are agreeing to this abusive relationship.
> 
> So what are you trying to get out the post ? What do you want to do ?


Everybody has confirmed what I need to do. 

If I stay stand my financial ground. But if I did that things would be ridiculously tenuous around here. I don't see any indication she is going to back down on this. 

Go

Everybody says its time to go. I know it is. Just need the strength to get it done. S et the plan in motion.


----------



## Cyclist

ScarletBegonias said:


> lol I need to unsubscribe...I'm rolling my eyes so much over this woman it's giving me a headache
> 
> Good Luck Cyclist,truly. I hope it works out for you!


Thank you for your input Scarlet


----------



## Lon

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

You opened pandoras box by buying your daughters a car. 

The job of a student is not to drive nice cars.

(Edit: I wrote this comment while riding the bus to work)


----------



## PBear

Cyclist said:


> Everybody has confirmed what I need to do.
> 
> If I stay stand my financial ground. But if I did that things would be ridiculously tenuous around here. I don't see any indication she is going to back down on this.
> 
> Go
> 
> Everybody says its time to go. I know it is. Just need the strength to get it done. S et the plan in motion.


You've been saying that a few times in your two years here...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cyclist

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*



Lon said:


> You opened pandoras box by buying your daughters a car.
> 
> The job of a student is not to drive nice cars.
> 
> (Edit: I wrote this comment while riding the bus to work)


Bus is not an option here.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

You should get out for you....But you owe it to your kids to get out.
Predictions: a) if you get out----your relationships with your children with grow and be saved. b) if you don't----they are doomed. I remember your past thread well. Your gf really dislikes your kids!
c) you aren't going to leave and you are going to give her the $.
(did you ever return the engagement ring or is it on her finger?)
Sorry Cyclist----I like you---I really do----but you need to Man up and "Dad up".


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*



Cyclist said:


> Bus is not an option here.


My point is, what do you want to teach your kids, that cars are a means of transportation, or to compete with the jones'? If socioeconomic standing is an important value to you then pony up the cash for better cars. If it about fairness amongst the kids sometimes you need to play the long game.


----------



## Cyclist

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> You should get out for you....But you owe it to your kids to get out.
> Predictions: a) if you get out----your relationships with your children with grow and be saved. b) if you don't----they are doomed. I remember your past thread well. Your gf really dislikes your kids!
> c) you aren't going to leave and you are going to give her the $.
> (did you ever return the engagement ring or is it on her finger?)
> Sorry Cyclist----I like you---I really do----but you need to Man up and "Dad up".


Ring was returned. 

I understand your frustration with my non moving ass. Really thought since the death of her father things had improved. Even with my kids we seemed to reach a level playing field. Then all this.

I think I'm depressed over it all. 

Fortunately I have a great network of friends and family, a personal trainer that kicks my tail in workouts for stress relief, and this board to bounce my thoughts off of.

So there are positives.


----------



## Unique Username

How come I never meet guys like this?

And why do they always end up with women who take, take, take and expect, expect, expect?

You have ZERO responsibility in paying (EVEN IN PART) for your GIRLFRIEND'S child's car.

The Daughter's Mother could easily stop buying $400 a month on clothes for a few months and be able to buy a decent used car for a KID. 

So many red flags going on dude, this isn't going to end well.
And you will back here biatching about how you were financially taken advantage of, how could you be so stupid to not see it at the time blah blah blah.


----------



## Cyclist

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*



Lon said:


> My point is, what do you want to teach your kids, that cars are a means of transportation, or to compete with the jones'? If socioeconomic standing is an important value to you then pony up the cash for better cars. If it about fairness amongst the kids sometimes you need to play the long game.


To me this is not a status deal. My god I'm looking at a used ford focus for my twins. It's pretty basic transportation. The only reason it's newer is that they plan on driving it into college and beyond. This is the only car dad will be buying. After this it's up to them.

For her daughter and her it seems to be a bit more of a status symbol and a jealousy issue.


----------



## Openminded

Cyclist, I swore I would not get sucked into another of your threads after the last one but here I am. You know she's not truly going to change. So you need to either get over your fear of being alone and finally get out of this situation or resign yourself to the life you're going to lead with her. Constantly pushing it off because of your fear of being alone obviously isn't working.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*



Cyclist said:


> To me this is not a status deal. My god I'm looking at a used ford focus for my twins. It's pretty basic transportation. The only reason it's newer is that they plan on driving it into college and beyond. This is the only car dad will be buying. After this it's up to them.
> 
> *For her daughter and her it seems to be a bit more of a status symbol and a jealousy issue*.


Yes there is a major difference in values here.

As for your GF's daughters car she bought a year and a half ago, where was the equality for your kids then? Did they get new gifts to equalize the scorecard?

In another couple years when your GF's kids receive new cars to replace the ones they've run into the ground (because kids who have cars bought for them never treat them well) will your kids all receive newer upgrades to balance the scorecard again?

This will spiral out of control and no one will ever be satisfied even though they will all have respectable cars.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Cyclist said:


> She's not here for the money. She's not like that even though it seems that way with this situation. She's pretty frugal and though we have more expendable income now she does not go crazy spending like some woman may do.


Thank you for this post. I have not laughed so hard in a long time.

She is all about the money. Lot's of your fights have been about that, going back to your other threads. There have been other things as well, but it keeps coming back to you supporting her.

If she is spending anything close to $400 a month on clothes, she is not frugal. She could cut that in half and pretty quickly get a nice chunk of money saved up. 

You won't fix this until you see what is right in front of you. For whatever reason, you don't want to see it.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Just an opinion here...... Igrew up in the suburbs in the midwest, so a car was absolutely necessary to get around....... even to an after school job.

University is different since life is revolves around campus (and if you're footing the bill, you will want it to revolve mostly around the library and other acceptable places to study).

So Cyclist, why are you buying cars with a view to take to university. Once they are there, there will be extra charges for parking. In concentrated areas like that there will be more crime. When I lived in NJ, I heard and read about a lot of crime in New Brunswick where Rutgers is..... carjackings and crimes against women........ You may also want to review your acceptance of letting the kids take cars to university.


----------



## Blondilocks

Cyclist, you've stated that your divorce was your fault. Was your GF a factor? If not, why did you divorce?


----------



## daffodilly

Tall Average Guy said:


> She is all about the money.
> 
> If she is spending anything close to $400 a month on clothes, she is not frugal. She could cut that in half and pretty quickly get a nice chunk of money saved up.
> 
> You won't fix this until you see what is right in front of you. For whatever reason, you don't want to see it.


Yes...when I read THAT, followed by his assertion that she's not in it for the money, and then looked at the 2 yr posting history....I've decided to stop following this thread for my own sanity.


----------



## Cyclist

NextTimeAround said:


> Just an opinion here...... Igrew up in the suburbs in the midwest, so a car was absolutely necessary to get around....... even to an after school job.
> 
> University is different since life is revolves around campus (and if you're footing the bill, you will want it to revolve mostly around the library and other acceptable places to study).
> 
> So Cyclist, why are you buying cars with a view to take to university. Once they are there, there will be extra charges for parking. In concentrated areas like that there will be more crime. When I lived in NJ, I heard and read about a lot of crime in New Brunswick where Rutgers is..... carjackings and crimes against women........ You may also want to review your acceptance of letting the kids take cars to university.


My daughters goal is to do 2 years at the local college then move on to university. Local will require a car


----------



## Cyclist

Blondilocks said:


> Cyclist, you've stated that your divorce was your fault. Was your GF a factor? If not, why did you divorce?


GF was not a factor. I had an affair and marriage fell apart. Was my fault

I met GF 7 months after ex and I separated


----------



## Cyclist

Interesting conversation with her daughter just now. Her daughter does not expect me to pay anything towards her car. She thought the 2k was big time generous and so did her dad.

Her dad said wait until Xmas and he will save his money and get her a car then.

Well this is a completely different story that I was led to believe. GF said her daughter came to her and asked why she was not getting what my kids are getting. 

Cluster F

So all I can believe is that GF thinks everything should be "our" money. Then more of "our" money should go towards the daughters car.


----------



## Blondilocks

The daughter is not the instigator, then. Your GF wants to get her way. She may equate that with being loved. Using her daughter to get her fix is deplorable. 

If this is the way you want to spend your life, keep on doing what you're doing.


----------



## Cyclist

Blondilocks said:


> The daughter is not the instigator, then. Your GF wants to get her way. She may equate that with being loved. Using her daughter to get her fix is deplorable.
> 
> If this is the way you want to spend your life, keep on doing what you're doing.


The equate with being loved hits the nail on the head.

It also equates to me being "all in". Combining incomes, beyond a ring and a ceremony, is all that's left to what she calls being all in.

That and the jealousy of my children having something hers doesn't. 

I'm going to go rent a 911 vert for the weekend and have em drive up in that just to see the expression on her face.


----------



## TurtleRun

Cyclist. First thing first. Separate what you and she put in the bank accounts. Not equally since you put in more money then she did. Look at the deposits and take out what you just put in and leave what she put in there. It shouldn't take more then a day to do that. 

Considering her daughter isnt the instigator she is after money. So protect yours.

Until that's done I wouldn't believe you are actually separating from her.


----------



## Lon

Cyclist said:


> My daughters goal is to do 2 years at the local college then move on to university. Local will require a car


Just think how much simpler this would all be if you could just provide for your own dependants and do what you feel is best, without being expected to give give give.

do you believe your GF's values are having a bad affect on your relationship with your own kids?


----------



## Cyclist

Lon said:


> Just think how much simpler this would all be if you could just provide for your own dependants and do what you feel is best, without being expected to give give give.
> 
> do you believe your GF's values are having a bad affect on your relationship with your own kids?


They think she's spoiled. Lol. No kidding


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Financial Responsibility to step children*



Cyclist said:


> They think she's spoiled. Lol. No kidding


But all that matters is what you think. You have not treated anyone unfairly (except maybe yourself) and you know it.


----------



## Cyclist

Lon said:


> But all that matters is what you think. You have not treated anyone unfairly (except maybe yourself) and you know it.


I've been more than fair financially.

My biggest drawback has been how my ex dealt with this relationship in the beginning which caused my daughters to have some issues with GF, but GF did not help the issue with how she has not been all in with my daughters,and how I have not committed fully via a wedding ring. Those are her issues with me.

My pull back commitment wise has been because of issues like this and a litany of others that are documented on this site.


----------



## Cyclist

I also obviously have a feet of being alone. I'm working on it and it probably goes back to watching my mother alone for 40 plus years. Father dies when I was 10 and she never re married.

I married young. I've never really been alone. I'm 47 now.

It should not be an issue but it is. Obviously.

Never thought I would say I have self esteem issues but somewhere in there I probably do.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Financial Responsibility to step children*



Cyclist said:


> I've been more than fair financially.
> 
> My biggest drawback has been how my ex dealt with this relationship in the beginning which caused my daughters to have some issues with GF, but GF did not help the issue with how she has not been all in with my daughters,and how I have not committed fully via a wedding ring. Those are her issues with me.
> 
> My pull back commitment wise has been because of issues like this and a litany of others that are documented on this site.


So she is putting up a boundary about marriage, and instead of a natural consequence such as ending it, or unblending, she is trying to enforce her very loose boundary (more like a want than a relationship need) of being married she is coercing and manipulating you to commit to more than you are willing to? It doesn't feel healthy to you because it isn't, she is trying to get her codependent hooks into you, the more she tries the harder you retreat… can you see where that leads?


----------



## Cyclist

Lon said:


> So she is putting up a boundary about marriage, and instead of a natural consequence such as ending it, or unblending, she is trying to enforce her very loose boundary (more like a want than a relationship need) of being married she is coercing and manipulating you to commit to more than you are willing to? It doesn't feel healthy to you because it isn't, she is trying to get her codependent hooks into you, the more she tries the harder you retreat… can you see where that leads?


Nobody is happy in that scenario. All the way down the line.

There are glimpses of happiness. But at its core there is a lot of damage here. A lot of water under the bridge that keeps surfacing. She holds a good deal of resentment.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Financial Responsibility to step children*



Cyclist said:


> Nobody is happy in that scenario. All the way down the line.
> 
> There are glimpses of happiness. But at its core there is a lot of damage here. A lot of water under the bridge that keeps surfacing. She holds a good deal of resentment.


The inevitable scenario is that she pushes you away while making you out to be the bad guy. And if neither of you fix it or leave it the people you love will all be hurt and harmed. 

What is her reason for wanting to get married? Have you sought relationship counselling to help figure out how to overcome the differences in values you each hold?


----------



## Cyclist

Lon said:


> The inevitable scenario is that she pushes you away while making you out to be the bad guy. And if neither of you fix it or leave it the people you love will all be hurt and harmed.
> 
> What is her reason for wanting to get married? Have you sought relationship counselling to help figure out how to overcome the differences in values you each hold?


She believes a full commitment includes marriage. I had always said I would never get remarried. 16 months ago we broke up.

When we got back together after long discussions I realized how important the marriage issue was to her. Just how it looks to others, the full commitment, to the children. So I said I would.

We were really doing well until about September and some resentment reared it's ugly head. She pulled back. I purchased a ring thinking that would give her a clue that I was all in. We just started not getting along and the arguments ensued. Some about big things but many about little things. I was about to leave when her father passed. Things changed, she changed in the short term, things smoothed out. But more of the same has started over the last month or so coming up to this. We fight entirely to much as we both are stubborn. 

No we have not gone to counseling. We would not be able to physically go as she gets no time away from work. We would have to do it online which from my understanding has worked for some.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

I appreciate you sharing your back story with me on here. So what do you think you want to do (knowing that it is impossible to control how others feel or what they do)? Regarding the car situation, I think you are being perfectly reasonable, no single decision is ever perfectly fair but over the long term things will even themselves out if you are equals.


----------



## Unique Username

Well you obviously enjoy the drama with this woman.

So, good luck with that.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Cyclist said:


> Interesting conversation with her daughter just now. Her daughter does not expect me to pay anything towards her car. She thought the 2k was big time generous and so did her dad.
> 
> Her dad said wait until Xmas and he will save his money and get her a car then.
> 
> Well this is a completely different story that I was led to believe. GF said her daughter came to her and asked why she was not getting what my kids are getting.
> 
> Cluster F
> 
> So all I can believe is that GF thinks everything should be "our" money. Then more of "our" money should go towards the daughters car.


So, she lies too?


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

She's not the one for you.....
she resents you, dislikes your children, lies and manipulates to get her way, withholds sex/affection and stomps around like a spoiled brat when she doesn't get her way. Accurate?


----------



## Cyclist

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> So, she lies too?


Unless I misunderstood then I would say yes. Something does not compute here. This would be the first time I would actually catch her lying about something. I'll wait to hear her explanation.

I laid it out via text about the car, her daughter, and I even spoke to her ex. 

Her daughter drives what she has until December while her dad saves the money up for a newer car and while her mother also saves more.

The interesting point is they are going to buy a NEW car. 22k. So there will be a payment. Her ex wants her to make half the payment. 

I told her I am moving forward with my koans and it sounds like she needs to make a decision as to whether or not SHE wants to help with the payment. 

That was 2 hours ago no response as of yet.

So the car thing is settled.

But the bigger issues still remain.


----------



## TurtleRun

So you're going to stay with her ?


----------



## Cyclist

TurtleRun said:


> So you're going to stay with her ?


I can't stay here under these circumstances and she has proven she will not change. 

Can counseling help this? Is it even viable after all this?


----------



## Unique Username

Bigger issues only remain because YOU haven't decided what to do.

There are actually women out there that are genuine, this might be the great catalyst to move on along in finding one.

You said you met this woman 7 months after leaving your wife. So you really hadn't even done any of the work necessary to understand the ramifications of your and the exw actions. You haven't Done the work on self to figure out the best thing for your future happiness:
ie - she is a rebounder that you have let drag on way toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo long

I think that maybe she is your penance - and that you have let yourself believe that you don't deserve better - that she and this "relationship" are your punishment.

So 2 years with her you said? That's a long enough sentence, why don't you let yourself out of prison?!


----------



## Unique Username

Cyclist said:


> I can't stay here under these circumstances and she has proven she will not change.
> 
> Can counseling help this? Is it even viable after all this?


YES

The only counseling YOU need is IC - so you can figure out how to fix your picker, how to create normal healthy boundaries and to find relationships that are NORMAL, healthy and joyful.....with people who actually can ADD something positive to your and your children's lives.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*

Counselling won't fix it, only two people who want to make a few necessary changes for the sake of the relationship.


----------



## Unique Username

Independent Counseling, though (LON) is a GREAT idea for him.


----------



## TurtleRun

Cyclist said:


> I can't stay here under these circumstances and she has proven she will not change.
> 
> Can counseling help this? Is it even viable after all this?


I don't think counseling will help on this one since she thinks she is the victim here and is trying to manipulate the situation. Plus she has to WANT to change and see she isn't being a very good person. So far all she done was "fake" being better that is why she goes back to the way she is cause if she was really willing to change she would have decided she had a problem and asked you "do you think I need help ? counseling?". How about youtalk to her "i was thinking i need some counseling to make myself better.... do you want to sign up for individual counseling too?... or you are fine the way you are?" Just out of the blue. If she thinks she is fine lol. Well then... if she says ok then ask her what she thinks she should go it to for. 

 sorry if that isn't the best plan but frankly i think she will just pull the wool over your eyes. greed like this doesn't change unless something life changing happened to her.


----------



## MEM2020

Cyclist,
The real issue has never been about money. It's been about control. About winning. She'd rather win, than have you feel close to her. And that's been the case whenever you two have conflict over anything. 
- Money
- Treatment of children (including her treatment of your daughters)
- Sex 
- Cleaning the garage 
- You fully meeting all her needs

As soon as you aren't doing what she wants, she begins to create havoc. 

Sadly, getting married won't fix that, it will worsen it. 





Cyclist said:


> I can't stay here under these circumstances and she has proven she will not change.
> 
> Can counseling help this? Is it even viable after all this?


----------



## Cyclist

MEM11363 said:


> Cyclist,
> The real issue has never been about money. It's been about control. About winning. She'd rather win, than have you feel close to her. And that's been the case whenever you two have conflict over anything.
> - Money
> - Treatment of children (including her treatment of your daughters)
> - Sex
> - Cleaning the garage
> - You fully meeting all her needs
> 
> As soon as you aren't doing what she wants, she begins to create havoc.
> 
> Sadly, getting married won't fix that, it will worsen it.


Your right it is about control. Something she never would admit to.

I'm no angel in this relationship and have made my mistakes but there were red flags I ignored. Just trying to keep peace. 

I know what my needs are. What I need to be happy. Being controlled or manipulated is not one of them.

Also re reading no more mr nice guy.


----------



## MEM2020

Cyclist,
You aren't an angel and have been open about that from the start. That said, you made a sincere and consistent effort to meet her needs because you love her and you wanted to. 

For whatever reason, she seemed entirely comfortable not meeting your needs. 

She was happiest when:
- You were all about her and 
- She was all about herself and her kids





Cyclist said:


> Your right it is about control. Something she never would admit to.
> 
> I'm no angel in this relationship and have made my mistakes but there were red flags I ignored. Just trying to keep peace.
> 
> I know what my needs are. What I need to be happy. Being controlled or manipulated is not one of them.
> 
> Also re reading no more mr nice guy.


----------



## Cyclist

Just an update. She came to me on Sunday after a weekend with the kids and suggested we seek a counselor. She admitted to harboring some resentment about both me and the children and admits she does not know if she can work it all out but would like to try.

I don't know if it can be worked out either. Like i said earlier the only way we could do couples counseling is online. I am willing to try as a last ditch effort to see if there is a common ground here with the issues.

Any ideas on where to go for couples counseling. There must be somewhere that has an online service using Skype or something similar?


----------



## Cyclist

coffee4me said:


> Wow, this is a terrible reason to get married.


You think? Realizing while something may not be that important to you that it is very important to someone you care about and coming to term with that is a terrible reason?


----------



## PBear

Cyclist said:


> You think? Realizing while something may not be that important to you that it is very important to someone you care about and coming to term with that is a terrible reason?


I don't know about "terrible", but it's a pretty poor reason to get married, in my books. Marrying to make other people happy, including people not even in the relationship? No thanks. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Cyclist,
Therapy works pretty good when the issues are mostly communication. 

It's not so helpful dealing with selfishness, major control issues and mild narcissism. 




Cyclist said:


> You think? Realizing while something may not be that important to you that it is very important to someone you care about and coming to term with that is a terrible reason?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Cyclist said:


> Just an update. She came to me on Sunday after a weekend with the kids and suggested we seek a counselor. She admitted to harboring some resentment about both me and the children and admits she does not know if she can work it all out but would like to try.
> 
> I don't know if it can be worked out either. Like i said earlier the only way we could do couples counseling is online. I am willing to try as a last ditch effort to see if there is a common ground here with the issues.
> 
> Any ideas on where to go for couples counseling. There must be somewhere that has an online service using Skype or something similar?


I get the distinct feeling that there's nothing she can say or do that will get you to actually leave her. She can be as nasty to your children and demanding to you as she wants and you'll just cave and cave and cave. So I'm going to start treating your threads like I do Lifescripts thread. Every few weeks I look at the last page, see there's been no progress, and move on to the next thread. 

All the good advice in the world won't help someone that won't help himself.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Funny, that's how I treat his threads too.


----------



## Sunburn

Don't even start down that road of financing her children.

1. You're not married
2. They have a father
3. See 1 & 2


----------



## Tmj4477

Let's put it this way and remove you and GF from the situation. How do you think the relationship amongst the children will be affected if you do this? If you don't care do whatever...if you do care then take a step back. 

If the kids are getting good grades then by all means get whatever. If they are mediocre students then why are they getting a nice car or a car period anyway?


----------



## botti

*Re: Step Father Financial responsibilities*



Cyclist said:


> Any input from anyone in this situation? I have read online that major financial issues with step children should not be the step parents issue. Wondering if anyone else is up against this?
> 
> My contention is she should be happy I am contributing anything. Nobody else is contributing to my kids car or anything else for that matter.


My opinion is that it's really nice of you to want to get your kids some wheels, but I think it's pretty ridiculous that they don't have any skin in this game. I had to save money to buy my first car, and my parents matched what I was able to set aside. That determined the quality of the vehicle. 

As for your specific question: it's all case by case. How long have you been together? How long have you been an adult in these kids' lives? How well do you all get on? How do you handle other expenses? I think $2K is pretty fair of you and your girlfriend should just say thank you. The teen in question already wrecked one car, she should be happy she's getting anything.

This is just the first in a long ling of upcoming major expenses. However you work it out, I'd say work it out fast. Are you expected to contribute to their college educations as well? Will you be paying for their weddings? When it comes time for down payments on the first house, are you going to put down the same amount for each child?


----------



## LVF

Wow. That story is not about financial responsibility, it is about jealousy. Scary...


----------



## MEM2020

LVF,
I agree. The real issue comes soon, college. His GF is absolutely going to demand marriage so that she's in a position to demand that Cyclist make an equal contribution to her kids tuition.

Look at how much strife there is over a vehicle. That's a pittance compared to the (2) college tuitions she will expect him to mostly fund. 

The sad thing is that Cyclist is a good guy. If she treated him right, he would help out a lot. But she strolls through life humming the me me me, song. And he's tired of it. 





LVF said:


> Wow. That story is not about financial responsibility, it is about jealousy. Scary...


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Cyclist, what's up?


----------



## Cyclist

Everyone,

Needed a bit of time to think things through.

We have been to 3 counseling sessions. First one was awkward. I think she is just kind of nervous. 2nd went well and we made some progress.

3rd one was a few little breakthroughs

1. She resents me for waiting so long to marry her and feels unwanted. Similar to the way I felt when I went to her with my needs and she would not meet me in the middle at least. That was an eye opener for her I think. 

2. She really wants all things to be even still. The car (which I did purchase for my daughters and gave it to them) has not been anywhere near as big a deal with her kids as she said it would be but she is still pressing the all is even. The counselor has let her know that while things in a mixed family can be similar its very difficult to have things financially completely even. Both her kids understand. She still does not and uses the "protecting her kids feelings" as the reason for her feelings

3. The counselor has agreed that she has insecurities that are difficult and has tried to help me understand them. She also says I have some anger issues. And she is right. Truthfully I do really well at keeping my cool in "discussions" until about the 2nd or 3rd hour of beating my head against the wall.

So for the last couple of weeks there have been many deep discussions of where we are going and how to get there. When I take a step back this is what has changed:

She has become MUCH more sexual. Something clicked and she seems to understand my needs for that contact. While I am enjoying it I am apprehensive and I am making sure its just not short term. That she really understands.

We talk more openly about issues. BUT she still does not like to give in or meet in the middle. These are the subject of the next session or two.

We are talking more openly about our needs. They meet in a lot of ways and then they don't in a lot. She thinks I am being a bit selfish wanting to have a hobby outside our relationship (that is next on the agenda also) I want to get back into racing cars. Not heavily. Just 5-6 times a year. I have asked what she wants to do...she says do something with me. Buy a boat. etc. 

So there was progress. We took a quick vacation with my daughters and her daughter and her daughters boyfriend. Everything went well. We got along, happy, etc.

THEN WAMMO.

My son called and said he wanted to do something with me alone. Go to Washington DC for a couple of days. Just the 2 of us. She wont hear of it. Says he needs to know we do things as a family and she is part of my life. I disagree. My sons and my relationship has been strained and we need time together. 

Then my daughters wanted to bring a friend over to spend the night. Their friend is black. GF would not hear of it. I knew this was coming. I can't fight this battle as she will not change and does not understand that its even racist. Explaining this to my daughters who judge on character and not skin color was difficult. So my daughters, who really have not been close to GF anyway, just lost another load of respect for her.

So we made progress and over a 6 day period I feel like I have taken multiple steps back.

I know a lot of you think I am just not going to leave like you say I should or that I am afraid of being alone or whatever the reason. Truthfully I just do not quite easily (obviously) When and if I walk away I want to make sure I have exhausted my reasons for doing so. Counseling was that last step to understanding why these things are happening and how to salvage this relationship.


----------



## PBear

So how's your respect level after she outed herself as a racist?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

Whatever happened to working to save to at least pay for HALF of a car?

I got a used car. Mom paid for half of it. I worked to pay insurance, gas, registration. I was 16.

My 14 (almost 15) year old knows that in order to have a car, she has to do the same. Or she can take the bus. 

I didn't have children to pay for double the adult things.


----------



## that_girl

And taking trips alone with a kid is what parents do  I took my kid to the Hearst Castle last October for 4 days and we had a blast.

Your wife has issues...


----------



## Cyclist

that_girl said:


> Whatever happened to working to save to at least pay for HALF of a car?
> 
> I got a used car. Mom paid for half of it. I worked to pay insurance, gas, registration. I was 16.
> 
> My 14 (almost 15) year old knows that in order to have a car, she has to do the same. Or she can take the bus.
> 
> I didn't have children to pay for double the adult things.


I offered to pay for the car and the kids have to get a part time job to pay the expenses or they can not drive it.

The only way they can no work is if they are involved in sports that would take them away from job time. In other words I would rather have my kids involved in an activity like sports instead of working. After the volleyball season its back to work.

GF daughter has a part time job. Pays her own gas, most of her clothes, etc. Does well saving money.

My son works almost full time. My deal with him is I will pay so much towards a car and then match whatever he saves. He pays his own expenses.

I don't know if this is all perfect or not. But I think we are teaching them some responsibility as well as giving. My daughters know that this car is it. They drive this as long as they want and if they want something different its up to them. Knowing them they will drive this straight into and through college


----------



## karole

Why exactly do you want to have a relationship with this woman? After your descriptions of her, I honestly do not understand how you would even consider staying in a relationship with her.


----------



## Cyclist

PBear said:


> So how's your respect level after she outed herself as a racist?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pbear I knew it was there. My daughters knew it was there. They were hesitant to ask.

I took my daughters and the young lady out for lunch. Very nice young girl. Mom is in the Air Force 13 years, she was very respectful, etc.

My thoughts go from "here is a woman that is serving my country and I can not have her daughter in my home overnight" which makes me angry.

Then "This is the way my GF was raised (which really is no excuse) and she is ignorant about what is really racism. 

She is not outwardly a racist. She works in medical and must work around folks of all races. Its her feeling that this is her comfort zone and she does not want that impeded upon. Also, and this is the kicker, her KIDS would be uncomfortable.

I have explained that this racism will just continue. Its not intelligent and she is just letting it continue with her kids.

She likens it to my feelings on religion. I am not a heaven and hell person. She is. Get this......yes she is a once saved always saved person. My question about this tied into religion is how can you profess Christianity and then be racist???? There is no intellectual answer for this question.


----------



## Cyclist

karole said:


> Why exactly do you want to have a relationship with this woman? After your descriptions of her, I honestly do not understand how you would even consider staying in a relationship with her.


karole

Because I have invested 5 years, at the flip of a switch she can be the most loving and caring person, it seemed we had so much in common, and she loves me. 

I have my faults and she tries to rise above them. 

But now we have all these issues that continue to crop up. 

But I can understand why you ask this question.


----------



## MEM2020

Cyclist,

I understand your situation better than most because M2, has a lot of similar issues. 

The thing is, your coping skills are very limited. 

You don't really want to accept this but she's an emo-terrorist. She isn't getting her way, she quickly resorts to emotional terrorism. 

Emo-terrorists don't use bombs or sniper rifles. They engage in low intensity conflict which leaves their opponent exhausted. 

After 2-3 hours of being poked at and dismissed you explode. Afterwards you feel exhausted and depressed. And, you have given away yet another pound of your most valuable possession, your self respect. 

If I were you, I would make a short list of show stoppers. And I would bring it to counseling or just have a very short discussion with her one on one. 

The list would have a preface, and some bullet points. 

Preface:
As the most important person in my life, I'm doing my best to compromise with you when we have conflict. That said, I have a short list of non negotiable requirements (see below). If any of these requirements are unacceptable to you, we are simply going to have to accept that we aren't compatible. 

If you seem me as an equal partner, none of these will be overly difficult for you. If instead you seem me as a possession or subordinate, I imagine this list will be upsetting, and likely lead to us parting. Since all of life ultimately relates to love, time and money, I've broken it down that way. 

Sadly, we are now at the point where this isn't a: If you agree we can get married. Instead, we are at the point where, if you don't agree we are going to part ways. 

Love: 
- While I love you more than anyone else, there needs to be room in this marriage for me to have other loving relationships. I need you to be supportive when I invest time, money and emotional energy in those relationships. 
- I am not jealous of your friends and family. I'm happy for you when you do stuff that you enjoy - even when I'm not part of it. 
- When I do something nice for someone I love, that does not and will not obligate me to performing a matching act for you and your children. 
- I want to know what you want. That said, once you've told me and I've agreed to do as much as I'm willing, I expect the conversation to end. 
Time: 
- 95%. Yep. That's the number. Sounds good right? I'm cool with spending 95% of my (non work travel) days with you. That means 5% will be spent with friends and family - without you. About 18 days per year. 
- For example: 2-3 days in DC with my son, will come out of that bucket of days. 

Note: I will also spend a few hours here and there with friends. This is normal and healthy. I will give you a heads up, but I'm not going to debate it. 
Money: This is the hardest part for me, because here I understand that this is mostly about a mother wanting what's best for her kids.

That said. Your behavior regarding money has been totally unacceptable. Not only do you act as if we are already married. You act as if I have adopted your children. Even if we were to eventually marry, I am not going to financially adopt your children. 

In this section I have only one question, and I need an honest answer. What contribution do you expect me to make towards their college tuition? 

You can give two answers:
1. If we are not married
2. If we are married






Cyclist said:


> Everyone,
> 
> Needed a bit of time to think things through.
> 
> We have been to 3 counseling sessions. First one was awkward. I think she is just kind of nervous. 2nd went well and we made some progress.
> 
> 3rd one was a few little breakthroughs
> 
> 1. She resents me for waiting so long to marry her and feels unwanted. Similar to the way I felt when I went to her with my needs and she would not meet me in the middle at least. That was an eye opener for her I think.
> 
> 2. She really wants all things to be even still. The car (which I did purchase for my daughters and gave it to them) has not been anywhere near as big a deal with her kids as she said it would be but she is still pressing the all is even. The counselor has let her know that while things in a mixed family can be similar its very difficult to have things financially completely even. Both her kids understand. She still does not and uses the "protecting her kids feelings" as the reason for her feelings
> 
> 3. The counselor has agreed that she has insecurities that are difficult and has tried to help me understand them. She also says I have some anger issues. And she is right. Truthfully I do really well at keeping my cool in "discussions" until about the 2nd or 3rd hour of beating my head against the wall.
> 
> So for the last couple of weeks there have been many deep discussions of where we are going and how to get there. When I take a step back this is what has changed:
> 
> She has become MUCH more sexual. Something clicked and she seems to understand my needs for that contact. While I am enjoying it I am apprehensive and I am making sure its just not short term. That she really understands.
> 
> We talk more openly about issues. BUT she still does not like to give in or meet in the middle. These are the subject of the next session or two.
> 
> We are talking more openly about our needs. They meet in a lot of ways and then they don't in a lot. She thinks I am being a bit selfish wanting to have a hobby outside our relationship (that is next on the agenda also) I want to get back into racing cars. Not heavily. Just 5-6 times a year. I have asked what she wants to do...she says do something with me. Buy a boat. etc.
> 
> So there was progress. We took a quick vacation with my daughters and her daughter and her daughters boyfriend. Everything went well. We got along, happy, etc.
> 
> THEN WAMMO.
> 
> My son called and said he wanted to do something with me alone. Go to Washington DC for a couple of days. Just the 2 of us. She wont hear of it. Says he needs to know we do things as a family and she is part of my life. I disagree. My sons and my relationship has been strained and we need time together.
> 
> Then my daughters wanted to bring a friend over to spend the night. Their friend is black. GF would not hear of it. I knew this was coming. I can't fight this battle as she will not change and does not understand that its even racist. Explaining this to my daughters who judge on character and not skin color was difficult. So my daughters, who really have not been close to GF anyway, just lost another load of respect for her.
> 
> So we made progress and over a 6 day period I feel like I have taken multiple steps back.
> 
> I know a lot of you think I am just not going to leave like you say I should or that I am afraid of being alone or whatever the reason. Truthfully I just do not quite easily (obviously) When and if I walk away I want to make sure I have exhausted my reasons for doing so. Counseling was that last step to understanding why these things are happening and how to salvage this relationship.


----------



## MEM2020

One last thing. 

Our children may invite anyone they wish to the house for dinner, regardless of skin color. If after sharing dinner with a new friend, we want to limit that friends access to our home, we can discuss it. But any such limitation will be based on character content, not skin color. 

This IS a show stopper to me. My daughters African American friend will be coming to dinner next Xxx day, if you boycott dinner you will have no say in whether I approve a subsequent sleepover. 

I am willing to end the R over this single issue. Are you? 






Cyclist said:


> karole
> 
> Because I have invested 5 years, at the flip of a switch she can be the most loving and caring person, it seemed we had so much in common, and she loves me.
> 
> I have my faults and she tries to rise above them.
> 
> But now we have all these issues that continue to crop up.
> 
> But I can understand why you ask this question.


----------



## PBear

To me, a partner as racist as yours is would be as tolerable as her being an alcoholic or a drug abuser. That is to say, no-go. Dead stop. By not standing against it, you're condoning her ideas to her and the children who see your (both your's and her) models of behaviour. 

That may seem harsh, but them's my thoughts. The only hope of reducing racism is to not tolerate it.

C


----------



## that_girl

And as far as the relationship goes, is this just convenient for you guys?

I mean, married or not, you have a blended family. Yet you treat it all separately.


----------



## CluelessWif

I don't really know how to answer this. My father met my mom when I was 4, married when I was 9. From the day of their marriage he decided that what is hers is his. My worthless sperm donor never paid a dime. My youngest sister is 25 and he still owes over 30 k in child support. (but Maine is a **** state for prosecuting dead-beat dads, they dgaf)

Dad always treated me like his. Parents divorced and he called me to tell me he is still my dad and this doesn't change anything. When my dh found out he has a previously unknown 19 year old my first response was "Holy ****, we have three kids."

You took her, and a woman and her kids are a package deal. What's more, you knew (since you have kids) exactly what you were in for. I don't know how you can complain that she wants the best for her children (and yours).


----------



## MEM2020

CW,

Did you read the part where she is doing everything she can to prevent him from going on a father/son weekend?

She is overtly jealous and resentful of him spending time with his children. Her view is very simplistic: he should be at work or with her. Other people are tolerated, as long as she is included in everything. 

That is toxic. 




CluelessWif said:


> I don't really know how to answer this. My father met my mom when I was 4, married when I was 9. From the day of their marriage he decided that what is hers is his. My worthless sperm donor never paid a dime. My youngest sister is 25 and he still owes over 30 k in child support. (but Maine is a **** state for prosecuting dead-beat dads, they dgaf)
> 
> Dad always treated me like his. Parents divorced and he called me to tell me he is still my dad and this doesn't change anything. When my dh found out he has a previously unknown 19 year old my first response was "Holy ****, we have three kids."
> 
> You took her, and a woman and her kids are a package deal. What's more, you knew (since you have kids) exactly what you were in for. I don't know how you can complain that she wants the best for her children (and yours).


----------



## karole

CluelessWif said:


> I don't really know how to answer this. My father met my mom when I was 4, married when I was 9. From the day of their marriage he decided that what is hers is his. My worthless sperm donor never paid a dime. My youngest sister is 25 and he still owes over 30 k in child support. (but Maine is a **** state for prosecuting dead-beat dads, they dgaf)
> 
> Dad always treated me like his. Parents divorced and he called me to tell me he is still my dad and this doesn't change anything. When my dh found out he has a previously unknown 19 year old my first response was "Holy ****, we have three kids."
> 
> *You took her, and a woman and her kids are a package deal. What's more, you knew (since you have kids) exactly what you were in for. I don't know how you can complain that she wants the best for her children (and yours).*


*

*

Have you actually read the entire thread?


----------



## Cyclist

Mem thats a fantastic post and ill reply to it more at length later. On my way to a meeting.

Quickly I know what her response will be. "But those are my feelings/thats the way I feel"
Which will show her inability to meet halfway.






MEM11363 said:


> One last thing.
> 
> Our children may invite anyone they wish to the house for dinner, regardless of skin color. If after sharing dinner with a new friend, we want to limit that friends access to our home, we can discuss it. But any such limitation will be based on character content, not skin color.
> 
> This IS a show stopper to me. My daughters African American friend will be coming to dinner next Xxx day, if you boycott dinner you will have no say in whether I approve a subsequent sleepover.
> 
> I am willing to end the R over this single issue. Are you?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Well, I would not want to be with a racist, either. 

One of my sisters is a lesbian, and the first weekend dh and I were dating, we went to see her. I casually mentioned that she was a lesbian. I did not give him any room to object. If he had had a problem with it, we would have been over.

So important to get these things out in the open as soon as possible. Get to rejection quickly.

One thing I will say, though, . . . sometimes isolating people is not wise. If you are strong enough, it is good to sit down and talk with them. Racism is based on fear. Isolating a bunch of fearful people may have dangerous consequences.

How about talking to her, Cyclist, about her concerns about this friend? Find out what it is, and help her get over it.

For people who are scared of gay people, it can be helpful to point out some who are, and that they like, but that they had not realized were gay. All of a sudden, those people seem totally normal. And the people wonder what they were so scared about in the first place.


----------



## jld

Cyclist said:


> Mem thats a fantastic post and ill reply to it more at length later. On my way to a meeting.
> 
> Quickly I know what her response will be. "But those are my feelings/thats the way I feel"
> Which will show her inability to meet halfway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How about saying, "That's the way you feel _right now_. Feelings can _change._"

Have you ever taken her to a restaurant she did not want to go to? Or a movie she did not want to see? But she ended up loving it? Point that out.

Most of us have had something like this happen at some time or another. And when it does, we are so glad people did not just give up on us, but dragged us through the door.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Cyclist said:


> Also, and this is the kicker, her KIDS would be uncomfortable.


What about your kids? Because right now, they are uncomfortable because they can't invite their friend over to the house.

You are getting great advice on the other issues, but I note that your kids are never a factor in all this. What about their comfort?


----------



## that_girl

Her kids would only be uncomfortable because she raised them to be racist.

Kids don't care about skin color.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

This is why I suggested the dinner first model.

Honestly - that's solely for his GF's benefit. Because it IS racist to require that their daughters put a black friend through hoops - a dinner that's actually an interview for a sleepover - they don't put their non black friends through. 

That said, Cyclist could make that the new norm for everyone. No sleep overs with friends until the parents have met them.




jld said:


> Well, I would not want to be with a racist, either.
> 
> One of my sisters is a lesbian, and the first weekend dh and I were dating, we went to see her. I casually mentioned that she was a lesbian. I did not give him any room to object. If he had had a problem with it, we would have been over.
> 
> So important to get these things out in the open as soon as possible. Get to rejection quickly.
> 
> One thing I will say, though, . . . sometimes isolating people is not wise. If you are strong enough, it is good to sit down and talk with them. Racism is based on fear. Isolating a bunch of fearful people may have dangerous consequences.
> 
> How about talking to her, Cyclist, about her concerns about this friend? Find out what it is, and help her get over it.
> 
> For people who are scared of gay people, it can be helpful to point out some who are, and that they like, but that they had not realized were gay. All of a sudden, those people seem totally normal. And the people wonder what they were so scared about in the first place.


----------



## Red Sonja

MEM11363 said:


> You don't really want to accept this but she's an emo-terrorist. She isn't getting her way, she quickly resorts to emotional terrorism.
> 
> Emo-terrorists don't use bombs or sniper rifles. They engage in low intensity conflict which leaves their opponent exhausted.
> 
> After 2-3 hours of being poked at and dismissed you explode. Afterwards you feel exhausted and depressed. And, you have given away yet another pound of your most valuable possession, your self respect.


:iagree:

Cyclist, Mem's post was fantastic and the above quote is the most important point ... you need to give it some serious thought.

Your GF is trying to isolate you from friends and family and, she is trying to enforce her will on your children and your life and behaviors. The above quote is one of the weapons in her arsenal that she uses to do this.

She will attempt to control your entire life and, if you marry her this is only the beginning.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> That said, Cyclist could make that the new norm for everyone. No sleep overs with friends until the parents have met them.


That sounds really good. Stand up, Cyclist! Be the man in the family!

I think, in general, the more involved parents are with kids, the better. I don't mean in the helicopter way, but just in the keeping the communication open and flowing way. 

The helicopter stuff is so controlling. Not helpful in life.


----------



## MEM2020

Tall,

C2 is never going to agree to and follow through on the 5% free time. She's going to do some version of this:

No one has a budget for free time. That's crazy. If you want to spend time without me we can discuss it on a case by case basis.

Subtext is: The default is that I have call on 100% of your non working time. If you want to do anything without me, you are going to have to battle it out with me for every hour. And I'm gong to make it painful. 

The ONLY thing that will change after they marry is that Cyclist will be legally obligated to write her a very big check when he finally reaches his breaking point. And knowing that, will only make her even more aggressive. 





Tall Average Guy said:


> What about your kids? Because right now, they are uncomfortable because they can't invite their friend over to the house.
> 
> You are getting great advice on the other issues, but I note that your kids are never a factor in all this. What about their comfort?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> The ONLY thing that will change after they marry is that Cyclist will be legally obligated to write her a very big check when he finally reaches his breaking point. And knowing that, will only make her even more aggressive.


Cyclist, look hard at the above. Please.


----------



## Cyclist

Red Sonja said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Cyclist, Mem's post was fantastic and the above quote is the most important point ... you need to give it some serious thought.
> 
> Your GF is trying to isolate you from friends and family and, she is trying to enforce her will on your children and your life and behaviors. The above quote is one of the weapons in her arsenal that she uses to do this.
> 
> She will attempt to control your entire life and, if you marry her this is only the beginning.


I agree. That was the quote that hit the hardest.

I have been looking for a word that would explain how she does this. She does not do it with a huge explosion. Not an atom bomb. She withdrawals a bit, changes her attitude towards me (what I call the switch) and then uses sniper shots to try and get her way.

It always starts subtle. Then its press and press and press until I get upset. Then its more about me being upset than it is the original issue. And it can be HOURS of this. and she will not let me walk away. I need to. I need to walk away, calm, and think. She wants it resolved no matter how long it takes. Then I get emotionally drained and now I really get pissed off that it is even happening and the time that is wasted.

When i brought the twins car home her first question was "What does my daughter think of it" Meaning is her daughter upset. Instead of I am so happy for the twins or anything of the sort. That let to the 3 hour discussion on how everything should be equal. Nothing changed. I did not change my position. It will come up again.

But now everything revolves around marrying her. Its almost a daily discussion. Why are you not buying me a ring?? My answer is we have to get along to more forward. 

It is all emotionally terrorizing.


----------



## Cyclist

MEM11363 said:


> Tall,
> 
> C2 is never going to agree to and follow through on the 5% free time. She's going to do some version of this:
> 
> No one has a budget for free time. That's crazy. If you want to spend time without me we can discuss it on a case by case basis.
> 
> Subtext is: The default is that I have call on 100% of your non working time. If you want to do anything without me, you are going to have to battle it out with me for every hour. And I'm gong to make it painful.
> 
> The ONLY thing that will change after they marry is that Cyclist will be legally obligated to write her a very big check when he finally reaches his breaking point. And knowing that, will only make her even more aggressive.



This brings up an interesting point that hit me this weekend. After discussing my want to get back on the racetrack her response was WIFM. Whats in it for me? What do I get to do?

I guess it depends on who you are and how your relationship is structured but I have never been in this position before. In my previous relationship my wife had no issue with me having hobbies that did not necessarily include her. While they did not take up my entire life they were important to me and I was passionate about them. 

So my thought that hit me was isn't a relationship at this stage of my life supposed to be a compliment to my life? To my needs and wants and desires? And how do you balance that with her needs and wants? Or do you find someone that fits into your needs and goes along with them??

Interesting dichotomy. Certainly 5 or even 10 pct of my free time is not to much to ask for. For some reason she is scared of it.


----------



## karole

Have you and she ever separated for any length of time? Perhaps if you could get away from her for awhile, where she can't manipulate you, you could think more clearly and realize you can do much better than to remain with an emotionally abusive, immature woman


----------



## Cyclist

jld said:


> Cyclist, look hard at the above. Please.


That is one of the very reasons there is no ring on her finger


----------



## jld

Cyclist, and I mean this with all kindness, do you think she would be better off with a different man? Someone who will know his boundaries and stick to them, regardless of her emotions?

All you really have to do is believe in yourself, and remain firm. She can't propose to herself, you know?


----------



## jld

Cyclist said:


> This brings up an interesting point that hit me this weekend. After discussing my want to get back on the racetrack her response was WIFM. Whats in it for me? What do I get to do?
> 
> I guess it depends on who you are and how your relationship is structured but I have never been in this position before. In my previous relationship my wife had no issue with me having hobbies that did not necessarily include her. While they did not take up my entire life they were important to me and I was passionate about them.
> 
> So my thought that hit me was isn't a relationship at this stage of my life supposed to be a compliment to my life? To my needs and wants and desires? And how do you balance that with her needs and wants? Or do you find someone that fits into your needs and goes along with them??
> 
> Interesting dichotomy. Certainly 5 or even 10 pct of my free time is not to much to ask for. For some reason she is scared of it.


Cyclist, there is no harm in telling a woman that you just cannot meet her needs. Deejo said that to his last girlfriend.

We all have different needs. By getting out of her life, you could be making way for the man who _can _meet her needs.

You could tell her that if you decide to break up with her.


----------



## MEM2020

Cyclist,

What's your next move? 




Cyclist said:


> I agree. That was the quote that hit the hardest.
> 
> I have been looking for a word that would explain how she does this. She does not do it with a huge explosion. Not an atom bomb. She withdrawals a bit, changes her attitude towards me (what I call the switch) and then uses sniper shots to try and get her way.
> 
> It always starts subtle. Then its press and press and press until I get upset. Then its more about me being upset than it is the original issue. And it can be HOURS of this. and she will not let me walk away. I need to. I need to walk away, calm, and think. She wants it resolved no matter how long it takes. Then I get emotionally drained and now I really get pissed off that it is even happening and the time that is wasted.
> 
> When i brought the twins car home her first question was "What does my daughter think of it" Meaning is her daughter upset. Instead of I am so happy for the twins or anything of the sort. That let to the 3 hour discussion on how everything should be equal. Nothing changed. I did not change my position. It will come up again.
> 
> But now everything revolves around marrying her. Its almost a daily discussion. Why are you not buying me a ring?? My answer is we have to get along to more forward.
> 
> It is all emotionally terrorizing.


----------



## COGypsy

Cyclist said:


> karole
> 
> Because I have invested 5 years, at the flip of a switch she can be the most loving and caring person, it seemed we had so much in common, and she loves me.
> 
> I have my faults and she tries to rise above them.
> 
> But now we have all these issues that continue to crop up.
> 
> But I can understand why you ask this question.


This is probably even sadder to read than your description of her emotional waterboarding.

You talk about the time sink and that she seems to have feelings for you. Nothing about fun, laughter, attraction, love, common goals. Just....it's been a long time and she's willing to stay around.

Do your feelings count in the math? Do your kids' feelings count? You mentioned having had a rough time with your son and needing to reconnect. Would it be correct to assume that your girlfriend has something to do with that rough spot?


----------



## Cyclist

MEM11363 said:


> Cyclist,
> 
> What's your next move?



next counseling is Thursday. 

Between now and then and maybe before I want to develop the "these are my boundaries" discussion points. I think the counselor eluded to that in our last session.

Funny we kind of had that talk in the shower about 4 days ago. That she has to trust me. She has to believe in my judgement. That I am not doing anything to sabotage our relationship and only doing things that will make us stronger. Me being happy developing a relationship with my son, having a hobby I am passionate about, etc etc. A happy me will help create a happy relationship. But these petty arguments and the jealousy has to stop.


----------



## Cyclist

COGypsy said:


> This is probably even sadder to read than your description of her emotional waterboarding.
> 
> You talk about the time sink and that she seems to have feelings for you. Nothing about fun, laughter, attraction, love, common goals. Just....it's been a long time and she's willing to stay around.
> 
> Do your feelings count in the math? Do your kids' feelings count? You mentioned having had a rough time with your son and needing to reconnect. Would it be correct to assume that your girlfriend has something to do with that rough spot?


My son rebelled against the divorce. Then his mother was taking her angst out on me with my son. Anything I had to say about parenting was disregarded. Now he is finally coming around. In fact on fathers day he told me he regrets all the things he did over the last 3 or 4 years and remembers me telling him that. That is a long way for him to come. Still a ways to go but he is only 19. His whole life ahead of him.

About a month after the GF and I moved in together he broke into out home while we were gone for the weekend and had a huge party. 3000 worth of stuff missing, alcohol, things missing, broken stuff, etc. It was not pretty. Ever since then he has not spent much time with me or my GF. He comes around for xmas and now and then but it has been rare. He has spent a lot of time smoking weed and playing video games. Its been a heart breaking situation for me. But he is slowly coming around. She has held a little grudge about what happened in the past but has also asked him to come over more. 

Its a sore spot. Her thoughts are he should come around the house more and understand I have this other family. He should be more involved in my life here. My point is I am not worried about that right now I just want to re connect and the rest of that will fall into place. I believe its selfish of her and she is trying to control me. The correct response when this came up should have been "I think its great you care going to reconnect and take all the time you need to do so" I would never stand in her way in something like this.


----------



## MEM2020

And what is your plan for responding to her strategy of: well that's just how I feel?



UOTE=Cyclist;9416946]next counseling is Thursday. 

Between now and then and maybe before I want to develop the "these are my boundaries" discussion points. I think the counselor eluded to that in our last session.

Funny we kind of had that talk in the shower about 4 days ago. That she has to trust me. She has to believe in my judgement. That I am not doing anything to sabotage our relationship and only doing things that will make us stronger. Me being happy developing a relationship with my son, having a hobby I am passionate about, etc etc. A happy me will help create a happy relationship. But these petty arguments and the jealousy has to stop.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

jld said:


> Cyclist, there is no harm in telling a woman that you just cannot meet her needs. Deejo said that to his last girlfriend.
> 
> We all have different needs. By getting out of her life, you could be making way for the man who _can _meet her needs.
> 
> You could tell her that if you decide to break up with her.


Let me be clear here. I did indeed say, "Doesn't seem like I can give you what you want and need."

I chose not follow up with ... "And I have no desire to, because it's pretty unreasonable."

Cyclist, you have been given LOTS of really good input and advice.

So, I'm just going to sum up.

This isn't going to fix itself. You're basically in a long good-bye at this point. I'm comfortable calling it that, because I was in one. I was separated for nearly 4 years prior to divorce.

The well is already poisoned. The more she presses for marriage, the more you back off, the more you back off, the less secure she continues to feel.

Your dynamic is broken. Are there some good bits? No doubt, but on the whole, yours is not a healthy relationship. Not remotely.

And in the event I haven't been clear with my advice; I'll ban you if you marry this woman.


----------



## imtamnew

When anyone judges people on the basis of where they come from or how they look.

I always remember this awesome scene from a classic.

12 Angry Men complete movie - YouTube


Cyclist: Don't do this to your children. You are setting a BAD example by tolerating a racist.
You are telling them that its OK to be like this.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> And in the event I haven't been clear with my advice; I'll ban you if you marry this woman.


 

_That_ is a true friend, Cyclist.


----------



## Cyclist

im_tam said:


> When anyone judges people on the basis of where they come from or how they look.
> 
> I always remember this awesome scene from a classic.
> 
> 12 Angry Men complete movie - YouTube
> 
> 
> Cyclist: Don't do this to your children. You are setting a BAD example by tolerating a racist.
> You are telling them that its OK to be like this.


I sat my daughters down yesterday and explained to them how I did not agree with this viewpoint, how I believe its wrong, how I believe being "raised this way" is a cop out. I also said there are things in relationships that can be deal breakers and only the people in the relationship understand what is and what is not.

I also said people can change their viewpoint. It was my hope that someday GF would open her eyes and see she is not only perpetuating this issue with her own children but it is having an effect on the family.

My 16 year old agrees. Said "dad I know you do not think that way and we were not raised that way. It just seems to us like she always gets her way" There is some truth to that statement.

Your right its not healthy for my kids or for me for that matter.


----------



## Cyclist

jld said:


> _That_ is a true friend, Cyclist.


I would be a beaten man if I marry her. Every other word out of my mouth would be "whatever you would like dear" That is not me.

I have things I want to do. A relationship is supposed to add to my life not take from it.


----------



## Cyclist

Deejo said:


> Let me be clear here. I did indeed say, "Doesn't seem like I can give you what you want and need."
> 
> I chose not follow up with ... "And I have no desire to, because it's pretty unreasonable."
> 
> Cyclist, you have been given LOTS of really good input and advice.
> 
> So, I'm just going to sum up.
> 
> This isn't going to fix itself. You're basically in a long good-bye at this point. I'm comfortable calling it that, because I was in one. I was separated for nearly 4 years prior to divorce.
> 
> The well is already poisoned. The more she presses for marriage, the more you back off, the more you back off, the less secure she continues to feel.
> 
> Your dynamic is broken. Are there some good bits? No doubt, but on the whole, yours is not a healthy relationship. Not remotely.
> 
> And in the event I haven't been clear with my advice; I'll ban you if you marry this woman.


There is a part of me that agrees with this and I deal with it on a regular basis. To much water under the bridge. To much damage done to both sides. No flexibility. 

Her needs are not being met. She wants someone that is a yes man when its important to her but then also takes the lead for things that are important to her. 

Last night was more of the same. I did not meet her needs and be "close" enough-even though I did everything I was asked. cooked dinner, helped her work out, etc. Her sons dog is here (hes a lab and chews on everything) and I asked that his cage not be in the kitchen and put in her sons room. The rest of the night she was cold. Then this morning picked at me about everything she could find and accused me of not being close.

She asked me what was wrong and I know she can tell. Its the racism thing that keeps swirling around in my head and I try to push it off for now but I am sure it shows. This young lady, whos mother is serving our country in the Air Force, could not come in MY HOME?? This goes against one of my core beliefs. Do not judge people no matter what you may see on the outside.

Anyway I am venting here a bit folks and I appreciate all of your input. Now its time to formulate a plan for the discussion on what is acceptable and what is not. We are going out of town over the weekend so I am not sure if I wait until I get back or cancel the trip. Ill decide that in the next couple of days.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> Let me be clear here. I did indeed say, "Doesn't seem like I can give you what you want and need."
> 
> I chose not follow up with ... "And I have no desire to, because it's pretty unreasonable."


Just curious, Deejo: Why did you not offer the follow up? I think it would have been helpful to her to hear that.


----------



## jld

I think she would really respond well to leadership, Cyclist. If you could set your boundaries (that take into account the best interests of the family) and enforce them, I bet she would be a different person with you. I bet she would change right away, actually.

What is keeping you from setting those boundaries and enforcing them? Laziness? 

You seem to know what you want. Are you afraid of her?

I hope not. I would think that would make her very unhappy. Do you think that she senses your fear, and that is why she is acting this way?


----------



## Cyclist

jld said:


> I think she would really respond well to leadership, Cyclist. If you could set your boundaries (that take into account the best interests of the family) and enforce them, I bet she would be a different person with you. I bet she would change right away, actually.
> 
> What is keeping you from setting those boundaries and enforcing them? Laziness?
> 
> You seem to know what you want. Are you afraid of her?
> 
> I hope not. I would think that would make her very unhappy. Do you think that she senses your fear, and that is why she is acting this way?



I've tried that. Not scared of leading as much as tired of fighting. I put my foot down, she disagrees, it turns into a 3 hour dissertation OR she shuts down and then blames me for being cold. It's a circle. It's exhausting.

With the realism of the racist incident, the car incident, and the way she acted when I said I wanted to take my son out of town for a few days it has changed the way I think about our relationship. I've expressed my opinions about how she acted during these times but she really thinks she is in the right. If it happened tomorrow I am not sure she would not act the exact same way. She has very little flexibility. 

So I have to decide if these are deal breakers. Express that to her and see how she reacts. 

1. Time with my children
2. The race issue
3. Time with friends or on my hobbies
4. What is my financial responsibility to her children. 

Those are the big issues.

And as far as fear I think she is scared. Scared of loosing me vs living the life she wants to create. She has a bit of a picture of how things were when she was married. He's a bit of a yes man and extremely laid back. She has a picture that the family dynamic would not change. Unfortunately that's not the way it is. My children are different from hers, it's not the same, and it may never be the same. 

And now when it comes down to it the marriage thing is what drives her crazy. Let's face it we probably should have been married by now. 5 years is a long time. truthfully this time last year we were getting along really really well. But now the harder she pushes the more I retreat. Just like Deejo said. The discussion points above may just put the nail in the coffin of what was already an upside down relationship.


----------



## jld

3 hours? My outbursts with dh last a few minutes. He just doesn't react. 

It is actually very frustrating for me, but in a way, effective for him, I guess. He just doesn't take my frustration personally.


----------



## Cyclist

jld said:


> 3 hours? My outbursts with dh last a few minutes. He just doesn't react.
> 
> It is actually very frustrating for me, but in a way, effective for him, I guess. He just doesn't take my frustration personally.


She believes she has to prove her point. I can not walk away until it's settled. And it's not settled until it's her way. Very rarely is there compromise. She wants to beat it into me until I see things her way.

Me I would rather walk away and think about things before tempers flare then come back to the subject


----------



## LongWalk

If you broke up, how would you handle living?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## jld

Cyclist said:


> She believes she has to prove her point. I can not walk away until it's settled. And it's not settled until it's her way. Very rarely is there compromise. She wants to beat it into me until I see things her way.
> 
> Me I would rather walk away and think about things before tempers flare then come back to the subject


You don't have to walk away. These things don't have to be a big deal, unless you let them be. Think of them as an opportunity to get to know each other better, to understand each other on a deeper level.

Just let her talk. Even better, reflect the feeling. Do you know how to do this?

You repeat back to her what she says, or you paraphrase it. You ask her an open-ended question, like: What are you afraid might happen if this girl spends the night? 

Then you listen to her response, and probe further. Ask more open-ended questions. Listen and repeat what she says back to her.

She should calm down pretty quickly. When she is calmer, and feeling listened to and understood, she will likely be able to hear your side of things. If she starts to get upset, go back to repeating what she says to her, and asking the open-ended questions until she calms down again.

Again, it could be a chance for both of you to understand each other in a deeper, more satisfying way.


----------



## COGypsy

Cyclist said:


> I sat my daughters down yesterday and explained to them how I did not agree with this viewpoint, how I believe its wrong, how I believe being "raised this way" is a cop out. I also said there are things in relationships that can be deal breakers and only the people in the relationship understand what is and what is not.
> 
> I also said people can change their viewpoint. It was my hope that someday GF would open her eyes and see she is not only perpetuating this issue with her own children but it is having an effect on the family.
> 
> My 16 year old agrees. Said "dad I know you do not think that way and we were not raised that way. *It just seems to us like she always gets her way" There is some truth to that statement.*
> 
> Your right its not healthy for my kids or for me for that matter.


Do you see what you're teaching your children? The example you're setting? I think we've established that if it were just you in this equation, you'd stay with her forever because ANYBODY is better than nobody in your mind.

It's not just you though. You say that judging someone by their character rather than their skin color is one of your core beliefs. Apparently that's only unless a woman says otherwise. You can tell your children to "do as you say and not as you do" until the cows come home, but it sounds like they're not buying it any more than we are. 

I certainly get the idea that you can't live your life entirely for your kids. At some point they'll be leaving home and you're absolutely entitled to finding your own happiness. However, I think you still have to be responsible for the lessons that you're putting forth for your kids.

The lessons I see here are that your children will never be as important as having a woman in your life. That no matter what you profess to believe, your actions show that placating the woman in your life trumps personal values. That the highest priority in life is getting and keeping a romantic partner at any cost. That if someone harangues you for any extended period of time, you'll cave.

Do you want your children in your life? Do you want to be the kind of man and father that they can rely upon and respect? Do you want your kids to bring the grandkids around someday? The more I read, the more my perception of you changes from seeing a man being shamefully (and shamelessly!) taken advantage of, to seeing someone that is frighteningly selfish. Everything you do is geared at making sure that there is a body plopped in the space marked wife/girlfriend. Nothing really matters except that, does it?


----------



## that_girl

Three hours is holding your emotions hostage. NO effing way would I sit for 3 hours listening to someone go off.

And I'd let my kids have their friend over. GF and her racist kids can go to a hotel.


----------



## MEM2020

C,

This isn't about behavior. These are hard wired traits. 

Here's your decision tree:
- If you don't marry her she's going to get more and more angry about that (and I don't blame her)
- If you do marry her, she's going to act more entitled than she already does (hard as that is to believe) and more aggressive. Ultimately you snap and cut her a big check. 

In what scenario are you happy and well cared for? 





Cyclist said:


> I've tried that. Not scared of leading as much as tired of fighting. I put my foot down, she disagrees, it turns into a 3 hour dissertation OR she shuts down and then blames me for being cold. It's a circle. It's exhausting.
> 
> With the realism of the racist incident, the car incident, and the way she acted when I said I wanted to take my son out of town for a few days it has changed the way I think about our relationship. I've expressed my opinions about how she acted during these times but she really thinks she is in the right. If it happened tomorrow I am not sure she would not act the exact same way. She has very little flexibility.
> 
> So I have to decide if these are deal breakers. Express that to her and see how she reacts.
> 
> 1. Time with my children
> 2. The race issue
> 3. Time with friends or on my hobbies
> 4. What is my financial responsibility to her children.
> 
> Those are the big issues.
> 
> And as far as fear I think she is scared. Scared of loosing me vs living the life she wants to create. She has a bit of a picture of how things were when she was married. He's a bit of a yes man and extremely laid back. She has a picture that the family dynamic would not change. Unfortunately that's not the way it is. My children are different from hers, it's not the same, and it may never be the same.
> 
> And now when it comes down to it the marriage thing is what drives her crazy. Let's face it we probably should have been married by now. 5 years is a long time. truthfully this time last year we were getting along really really well. But now the harder she pushes the more I retreat. Just like Deejo said. The discussion points above may just put the nail in the coffin of what was already an upside down relationship.


----------



## Deejo

jld said:


> Just curious, Deejo: Why did you not offer the follow up? I think it would have been helpful to her to hear that.


I was her first relationship, after a very long 20+ year marriage, where she felt marginalized and taken for granted.
She was separated. Still married. And ... I knew she still loved her husband, despite the marriage being unequivocally done. I didn't feel compelled to rub salt in the wound. Had I added the last bit it would have felt far more like a rejection than an acknowledgment. I didn't feel she needed that. 

She knew she was asking a lot. We both knew by nature of my work, I couldn't meet her expectation. She felt great when we were together, but the reality was we were far more often apart than together, and she struggled with my availability.

Great woman. Strong, feisty, could drink like a Viking ...
We got along great, our relationship absolutely showed her that there is far better out there than what she had. But at the end of the day, I'm not her guy.


----------



## Deejo

MEM11363 said:


> C,
> 
> This isn't about behavior. These are hard wired traits.
> 
> Here's your decision tree:
> - If you don't marry her she's going to get more and more angry about that (and I don't blame her)
> - If you do marry her, she's going to act more entitled than she already does (hard as that is to believe) and more aggressive. Ultimately you snap and cut her a big check.
> 
> In what scenario are you happy and well cared for?


I look back on my circumstances and can readily acknowledge that I was all about forecasting and dealing with 'the contingencies' or possible outcomes.

For reasons that are inexplicable to me now ... I just couldn't settle on one.

Until I did.

Looks to me this is pretty much where you are. And all I can tell you is once you do choose an outcome, and you are looking back on it several years down the line, I can guarantee regardless of the outcome you choose, this will be your thought:

"What the hell was I thinking?"


----------



## Blondilocks

Truthfully, love isn't this hard. And, life certainly doesn't have to be.
Chalk up those 5 years to a learning experience and move on. 

Staying will only get you more of the same and more time wasted on a relationship you don't want. Show your kids how to respect themselves before they wind up in abusive relationships.


----------



## that_girl

YES. Love shouldn't be hard.

I agree.


----------



## Cyclist

COGypsy said:


> Do you see what you're teaching your children? The example you're setting? I think we've established that if it were just you in this equation, you'd stay with her forever because ANYBODY is better than nobody in your mind.
> 
> It's not just you though. You say that judging someone by their character rather than their skin color is one of your core beliefs. Apparently that's only unless a woman says otherwise. You can tell your children to "do as you say and not as you do" until the cows come home, but it sounds like they're not buying it any more than we are.
> 
> I certainly get the idea that you can't live your life entirely for your kids. At some point they'll be leaving home and you're absolutely entitled to finding your own happiness. However, I think you still have to be responsible for the lessons that you're putting forth for your kids.
> 
> The lessons I see here are that your children will never be as important as having a woman in your life. That no matter what you profess to believe, your actions show that placating the woman in your life trumps personal values. That the highest priority in life is getting and keeping a romantic partner at any cost. That if someone harangues you for any extended period of time, you'll cave.
> 
> Do you want your children in your life? Do you want to be the kind of man and father that they can rely upon and respect? Do you want your kids to bring the grandkids around someday? The more I read, the more my perception of you changes from seeing a man being shamefully (and shamelessly!) taken advantage of, to seeing someone that is frighteningly selfish. Everything you do is geared at making sure that there is a body plopped in the space marked wife/girlfriend. Nothing really matters except that, does it?


CO as hard as some of those words are to hear some of them are true.

At one time I thought I was doing the right thing. It wasn't about a body plopped down beside me and everything I do does not revolve around that. If that were the case I would give into her wishes. It was about trying to overcome the family issues in the past, create a loving household for my kids to participate in, letting them see what it should be like. There are a lot of characteristics that GF has that are very strong. Works hard, loves her kids, punctual, follows through, keeps her house in order, etc etc. My children's mother can be the opposite of those things. 

Unfortunately the other things that are important that we differ on have come up. The race issue being one of the biggest.

I can see her point on financial affairs to a certain extent
I can not see her point on me spending time with my son or her fear of me spending any time on my own.
I can not contemplate her resentment towards my kids.

I've tried to be a better person and look past some of the issues so we could all just get along. Give and take. But it all continues to come back up because they were probably never handled correctly in the first place. I did not put my foot down on what was acceptable and what was not.


----------



## jld

If you are going to leave her, great.

If you are not going to leave her, please consider my advice in post #177. I think it could make a big difference in your relationship.


----------



## Red Sonja

JLD, please realize that "active listening", "validating feelings" and other forms of non-combative communication do not work on emotional-terrorists such as Cyclist's GF. Such people see those kindnesses as "their due" and use it to take advantage of or manipulate people in relationships. Some even see it as weakness.

People such as her will badger you until they wear you down or, if you walk away from their badgering they will become passive-aggressive as punishment.


----------



## MEM2020

Cyclist,
These are core traits and core values. 

She couldn't change them even if she wanted to. 

Sure, on threat of breakup you can extort some temporary concessions on her part. 

And as she reverts to type you will both be miserable. 

You are never going to trust her enough to marry her without a prenup. 

So - let her go. Give both of you a shot at happiness. 




Cyclist said:


> I've tried that. Not scared of leading as much as tired of fighting. I put my foot down, she disagrees, it turns into a 3 hour dissertation OR she shuts down and then blames me for being cold. It's a circle. It's exhausting.
> 
> With the realism of the racist incident, the car incident, and the way she acted when I said I wanted to take my son out of town for a few days it has changed the way I think about our relationship. I've expressed my opinions about how she acted during these times but she really thinks she is in the right. If it happened tomorrow I am not sure she would not act the exact same way. She has very little flexibility.
> 
> So I have to decide if these are deal breakers. Express that to her and see how she reacts.
> 
> 1. Time with my children
> 2. The race issue
> 3. Time with friends or on my hobbies
> 4. What is my financial responsibility to her children.
> 
> Those are the big issues.
> 
> And as far as fear I think she is scared. Scared of loosing me vs living the life she wants to create. She has a bit of a picture of how things were when she was married. He's a bit of a yes man and extremely laid back. She has a picture that the family dynamic would not change. Unfortunately that's not the way it is. My children are different from hers, it's not the same, and it may never be the same.
> 
> And now when it comes down to it the marriage thing is what drives her crazy. Let's face it we probably should have been married by now. 5 years is a long time. truthfully this time last year we were getting along really really well. But now the harder she pushes the more I retreat. Just like Deejo said. The discussion points above may just put the nail in the coffin of what was already an upside down relationship.


----------



## larry.gray

Cyclist said:


> Then my daughters wanted to bring a friend over to spend the night. Their friend is black. GF would not hear of it. I knew this was coming. I can't fight this battle as she will not change and does not understand that its even racist. Explaining this to my daughters who judge on character and not skin color was difficult. So my daughters, who really have not been close to GF anyway, just lost another load of respect for her.


Damn! I'd be out the door at that moment. It would be the lesson I'm trying to teach my children that would drive me to do it. I can't go and tell them that to be a truly decent person and stand against racism _even when it costs you personally_ if I wasn't willing to do it myself.


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> Just curious, Deejo: Why did you not offer the follow up? I think it would have been helpful to her to hear that.


It would be worthwhile if that one sentence would help her. If you figure it will be turned around to only be an indictment of Deejo, what is the point? It only makes things between them worse.


----------



## larry.gray

Cyclist said:


> I can not contemplate her resentment towards my kids.


Understand that many women do not act rationally when it comes to their kids. They want the best things possible for their kids and resent not being able to give it to their kids. 

Even to the point that in the long run, her kids will definitely be worse off if you split up.


----------



## Cyclist

She e mailed me earlier and said she knows something is wrong and she thinks she knows what it is. its the events of the weekend.

Her comment is she does not try and sway my viewpoint on things that are important to me...(ummmmm really?)....like her religious beliefs.

She says this is how she believes and that's how she was raised and she would not feel comfortable.

I had prepared for this and did a little research yesterday and pulled an article about a young black man in HS who had asked a white girl to the prom. Friend of the family. Families had been to each others homes, etc. The young lady said yes. Her father said no. And the mother wrote how devastated the son was.

I fired this off with a simple explanation that said how I feel about being a part of making someone feel the way that young man felt. Not only that but how my daughters felt about it. How we (her and I) are supposed to be a family and what we do reflects on who we are. I can not have this reflection on my family again and if and when this comes up again I will not stop someone from coming to my house because of the color of their skin. Simply put its not an acceptable behavior no matter how a person was raised and it was my hope by reading that article that she would understand that racism hurts and perpetuating it hurts us. While I respect her views on a lot of different things this one I can not stand behind.


So that's where it sits right now. Did not really plan on getting into this especially over an e mail but its out in the open now


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> It would be worthwhile if that one sentence would help her. If you figure it will be turned around to only be an indictment of Deejo, what is the point? It only makes things between them worse.


I kind of wondered if it was something like that. Deejo, were you trying to protect yourself when you chose not to tell her that information that could have helped her?


----------



## LongWalk

Your GF has some good points but she is pushy. What will happen if you break up? ARe you living in her house?


----------



## Cyclist

LongWalk said:


> Your GF has some good points but she is pushy. What will happen if you break up? ARe you living in her house?


Not worried about housing whatsoever. Houses are a dime a dozen. 

She probably can not afford the house we are in alone but its in her name. Up to her what she does.

Not worried about moving out or staying there. 

Really I am worried about mine and my kids happiness and my SANITY.


----------



## Cyclist

The response:


If you think for one second that i do or would ever intentionally hurt anyone as your demeaning "racial story" suggests that you use as comparison then you simply do not know me at all. I work with people of all races as well as am friends with people of all races. I have never once made anyone intentionally feel belittled whether it was in regards to intelligence, what they can afford , where they live or race. If this child is hurt or your children's feelings or yourself are hurt that was not the intent and i apologize and certainly could have been avoided. This was not a pressing or necessary event that just had to take place. The comfort level of all involved within our home should be one that should be respected. My children as well as myself are involved. If this were an issue in public or you ever even heard diminishing words out of my mouth, this would be a completely different story. You and your children knew very well what issues and feelings this would raise and therefore should have never allowed it to be an topic of controversy which only hurts. Sometimes its best when people have differences of opinions or different points of view, to not attempt to persuade or force if not imperative. Simply realize it wasnt a necessary argument. And your right, if you feel the need to question my values or my relationship with God then you're right, we shouldn't discuss and leave that out.


If I am reading this right she is blaming my children for this. She said this over the weekend. That it should not have come up and it is my children trying to be divisive. Not quite.


----------



## PBear

Basically, it seems that she's blaming you and your kids for raising the issue. You should have known she was a racist, and never brought up inviting someone of a different ethnic background into her home. Problem solved!

Dump her. 

C


----------



## Blondilocks

Backpedaling BS. She is friends with people of all races but won't have them in her home? She may have acquaintances of people of other races, but she is no friend. If she is so tolerant, how is it her children are intolerant?

It seems she uses her children as excuses for a lot of her insecurities/wants/needs. What she needs is to be ashamed of herself for using her kids that way. What I don't understand is: is she saying her religion taught her to be intolerant of other races? If so, she doesn't know her Bible very well.


----------



## EleGirl

Cyclist said:


> The response:
> 
> 
> If you think for one second that i do or would ever intentionally hurt anyone as your demeaning "racial story" suggests that you use as comparison then you simply do not know me at all. I work with people of all races as well as am friends with people of all races. I have never once made anyone intentionally feel belittled whether it was in regards to intelligence, what they can afford , where they live or race. If this child is hurt or your children's feelings or yourself are hurt that was not the intent and i apologize and certainly could have been avoided. This was not a pressing or necessary event that just had to take place. The comfort level of all involved within our home should be one that should be respected. My children as well as myself are involved. If this were an issue in public or you ever even heard diminishing words out of my mouth, this would be a completely different story. You and your children knew very well what issues and feelings this would raise and therefore should have never allowed it to be an topic of controversy which only hurts. Sometimes its best when people have differences of opinions or different points of view, to not attempt to persuade or force if not imperative. Simply realize it wasnt a necessary argument. And your right, if you feel the need to question my values or my relationship with God then you're right, we shouldn't discuss and leave that out.
> 
> 
> If I am reading this right she is blaming my children for this. She said this over the weekend. That it should not have come up and it is my children trying to be divisive. Not quite.


Boy can she spin in an attempt change the story!!! However it's very transparent. 

What your wife really said in that response is that it's her and her children's home/house. what she says/wants/feels/believes rule. You and your children have no rights to your own home/beliefs/etc.

She's a piece of work. You can do a lot better. Shoot, you'd be better off without a woman than with her. And you are not alone, you have your children.


----------



## Deejo

jld said:


> I kind of wondered if it was something like that. Deejo, were you trying to protect yourself when you chose not to tell her that information that could have helped her?


No idea what you mean. If I was trying to protect or insulate myself, I would have continued trying to placate her enough to keep her around and get more of the off the hook sex we were having.

She had stuff she needed to sort out ... particularly the status of her marriage. She didn't want to hurt her husband, but certainly knew she didn't want to remain married to him. They hadn't slept in the same bed for 3 years. Hadn't had sex in nearly 2. He had moved out several times. 

If she wanted a real relationship, she needed to take action and responsibility ... I did tell her that.

She was needy. Owned that she was. I understood why she felt that way based on her marriage. I wanted to meet her needs. Became apparent that my efforts were insufficient. I certainly didn't feel bad about that fact, and knew if I continued trying harder to give her what she wanted, only to discover those efforts still weren't going to be enough ... well ... I call that dysfunction. We were very compatible. However, based upon our needs and lifestyle, at the time, we were not suitable.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Cyclist said:


> The response:
> 
> 
> If you think for one second that i do or would ever intentionally hurt anyone as your demeaning "racial story" suggests that you use as comparison then you simply do not know me at all. I work with people of all races as well as am friends with people of all races. And as long as they stay in the box that I provide for them, then I am ok.
> 
> I have never once made anyone intentionally feel belittled whether it was in regards to intelligence, what they can afford , where they live or race. This is why I continue to hassle you to ensure that MY children have the best in order to trump all their peers.... especially those of color. So that I don't have to feel inferior about the small things.... like the kind of car that my daughter drives.
> 
> If this child is hurt or your children's feelings or yourself are hurt that was not the intent and i apologize and certainly could have been avoided. Does she say how.
> 
> This was not a pressing or necessary event that just had to take place. The comfort level of all involved within our home should be one that should be respected. My children as well as myself are involved. Yes, I plan to subject you and your family to the lowest common denominator for MY comfort.
> 
> If this were an issue in public or you ever even heard diminishing words out of my mouth, this would be a completely different story. But thankfully, it's been a few months since I've done that.
> 
> 
> You and your children knew very well what issues and feelings this would raise and therefore should have never allowed it to be an topic of controversy which only hurts. Sometimes its best when people have differences of opinions or different points of view, to not attempt to persuade or force if not imperative. Simply realize it wasnt a necessary argument. And your right, if you feel the need to question my values or my relationship with God then you're right, we shouldn't discuss and leave that out.
> 
> Cyclist, all i can say is that she is great at spewing words.
> 
> 
> If I am reading this right she is blaming my children for this. She said this over the weekend. That it should not have come up and it is my children trying to be divisive. Not quite.


----------



## MEM2020

Cyclist,
Be brutally honest. This is what you know about her. She deeply resents anything that diverts your time, money or love from her and/or her children including your:
- children 
- extended family
- friends 
- hobbies

What are the odds of you marrying her? 

It's a serious question. 






Cyclist said:


> The response:
> 
> 
> If you think for one second that i do or would ever intentionally hurt anyone as your demeaning "racial story" suggests that you use as comparison then you simply do not know me at all. I work with people of all races as well as am friends with people of all races. I have never once made anyone intentionally feel belittled whether it was in regards to intelligence, what they can afford , where they live or race. If this child is hurt or your children's feelings or yourself are hurt that was not the intent and i apologize and certainly could have been avoided. This was not a pressing or necessary event that just had to take place. The comfort level of all involved within our home should be one that should be respected. My children as well as myself are involved. If this were an issue in public or you ever even heard diminishing words out of my mouth, this would be a completely different story. You and your children knew very well what issues and feelings this would raise and therefore should have never allowed it to be an topic of controversy which only hurts. Sometimes its best when people have differences of opinions or different points of view, to not attempt to persuade or force if not imperative. Simply realize it wasnt a necessary argument. And your right, if you feel the need to question my values or my relationship with God then you're right, we shouldn't discuss and leave that out.
> 
> 
> If I am reading this right she is blaming my children for this. She said this over the weekend. That it should not have come up and it is my children trying to be divisive. Not quite.


----------



## Cyclist

MEM11363 said:


> Cyclist,
> Be brutally honest. This is what you know about her. She deeply resents anything that diverts your time, money or love from her and/or her children including your:
> - children
> - extended family
> - friends
> - hobbies
> 
> What are the odds of you marrying her?
> 
> It's a serious question.


35-1

I wouldn't put a dollar on a horse that was 35-1

Right now I wouldn't give a dollar for our relationship. With all the good times we have had every time we get on the same page and try and move forward things like this come up.

I hope beyond hope things will change. They don't.

I think I need to be alone.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Cyclicst, I shudder at your thread because I was once a black girl growing in the white suburbs in the 70s and going to a whiteprivate prep school. (my parents paid for it, I was not on scholarship).

And I do know I was the topic of conversation as to whether my (white) boyfriend could bring me to the country club with him.


----------



## Deejo

Read your other threads.

I stand by my initial statement. You are caught in the 'long goodbye'.

Having been there myself, I can also tell you that you are wasting your time ... and hers.

You may be compatible, but you are not suitable for one another.


----------



## MEM2020

C,
That's a very honest answer. 

I know you are in pain now, so I'm going to do this for you.

The breakup script ought to go something like this:

You're a beautiful, intelligent, successful woman. You deserve a partner who loves you as you are and isn't trying to change you. Someone who is more devoted and less distracted by other people and by hobbies. As much as I wish that was me, it isn't. 

I'm sad and heartbroken, but I'm also certain this is the right thing to do. I really am going to miss you. 

--------
Prep: 
1. Go for a long run/workout before this talk. 
2. Tape record it - just in case she begins to threaten you
3. Avoid specifics like the plague they are in this type discussion. This is NOT a debate. It's a breakup that's intended to leave her with her pride intact. 
4. Let her talk. Offer to hold her. 
5. Do NOT have sex with her. No matter what. Too much of a mixed signal. 
6. It is ok for her to tell you that you suck. She's the breakee, not the breaker in this situation. Let her vent. 
7. It's ok for her to tell you that you are breaking your promise to marry her. Because you are. 

Stick with: 
- I'm sorry you'd hurting and 
- I'm sorry you feel that way

If she starts using any type of legal language, breach of promise, etc. Stick with:
- I have acted in good faith from the start. I wanted this to work. I'm hurting too. 

Avoid specifics. I mean it. She is going to try to drag you into a conversation about specifics. Don't allow it. 
C2: Is this about having the black girl sleep over
C2: Why are you doing this? We are in therapy, we are working out our differences. 
Cyclist: This isn't about any one thing. We simply aren't compatible. 
C2: I can't afford the rent here. 


Cyclist: As long as we part amicably, I will be fair as far as the rent goes. 
Subtext: as long as you don't sue me, make false claims against me, abuse my children, etc. I'll pay my share of the rent until you either sublet or the lease ends

-----------
Cyclist,
I'm not a lawyer. But this I can say with confidence. You have NO legal exposure on the breach of promise. Those emails you two just exchanged, would enable you to prevail in any civil suit. 

I don't think she will sue you, but if she did, you can point to those emails and say with certainty that you could never marry an openly racist person. Game over. 





Cyclist said:


> 35-1
> 
> I wouldn't put a dollar on a horse that was 35-1
> 
> Right now I wouldn't give a dollar for our relationship. With all the good times we have had every time we get on the same page and try and move forward things like this come up.
> 
> I hope beyond hope things will change. They don't.
> 
> I think I need to be alone.


----------



## jld

Deejo said:


> No idea what you mean. If I was trying to protect or insulate myself, I would have continued trying to placate her enough to keep her around and get more of the off the hook sex we were having.
> 
> She had stuff she needed to sort out ... particularly the status of her marriage. She didn't want to hurt her husband, but certainly knew she didn't want to remain married to him. They hadn't slept in the same bed for 3 years. Hadn't had sex in nearly 2. He had moved out several times.
> 
> If she wanted a real relationship, she needed to take action and responsibility ... I did tell her that.
> 
> She was needy. Owned that she was. I understood why she felt that way based on her marriage. I wanted to meet her needs. Became apparent that my efforts were insufficient. I certainly didn't feel bad about that fact, and knew if I continued trying harder to give her what she wanted, only to discover those efforts still weren't going to be enough ... well ... I call that dysfunction. We were very compatible. However, based upon our needs and lifestyle, at the time, we were not suitable.


Thanks for your response. I was not doubting your decision in any way, just thought you missed an opportunity to help her by being transparent in your further reason for breaking up: her unreasonable expectations.

What I understood from Larry is that you did not tell her that because you thought it would come back to bite you. I think you mentioned it would make her feel rejected. But I think you could have helped her by telling her her expectations are unreasonable, and explaining why. It could have been a parting gift, so to speak.

What if she had thanked you for that? What if she had said she did not realize that, and that you did her a favor by letting her know? Now she probably will have to go through a few more relationships before she figures it out, or someone else clues her in. 

I just think you could have given her a shortcut. Some of us don't understand anything that is not very clearly explained. Just my thought, I guess.

Larry seemed to think you thought being transparent with her would come at a cost to yourself. I was wondering about that, too, and wondering what you felt that cost would have been. But now I am thinking maybe Larry and I misunderstood you.


----------



## MEM2020

Next,
C2 is about to discover that Karma is a bltch. Because her openly racist email completely erases any legal leverage she might have had on this situation. 

Did he bring you to the country club? How did his parents treat you?





NextTimeAround said:


> Cyclicst, I shudder at your thread because I was once a black girl growing in the white suburbs in the 70s and going to a whiteprivate prep school. (my parents paid for it, I was not on scholarship).
> 
> And I do know I was the topic of conversation as to whether my (white) boyfriend could bring me to the country club with him.


----------



## NextTimeAround

MEM11363 said:


> Next,
> C2 is about to discover that Karma is a bltch. Because her openly racist email completely erases any legal leverage she might have had on this situation.
> 
> Did he bring you to the country club? How did his parents treat you?


He was the exchange student from Scandinavia. He told his host family that he would no longer go to dinner at the country club with them. so the mother offered to take us both one day to play tennis and to have lunch. I accepted the invitation.

I grew up in the midwest so I can thin of some other ugly moments.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Cyclist:
Be a man and do the right thing! For your girls, for your son and for YOU!
She is not right for you and she certainly has no love for your children.
And really---the whole Racist thing---not cool. By not taking a real stand you are condoning it.


----------



## jld

She sounds like a very frightened person, Cyclist. People who are racist are fearful people. Fearful people are controlling people. 

If you were stronger, I think you could guide her out of this, help her move beyond her fears. She needs someone to make her feel safe, so she can be more accepting.


----------



## golfergirl

Sometimes one needs to worry about saving themselves before saving the world. Sacrificing his future and children's future on this damaged woman might be the really kind thing to do but sometimes you just have to save yourself. She really isn't worth it. When you clash on core values such as child rearing and views on racism it just isn't worth the fight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I hear you, golfergirl. But Cyclist has told us many times that he is going to leave her, and has not. 

Just in case this is another time, I wanted to offer what I thought might be constructive advice. 

I certainly agree that splitting up is a healthy choice.


----------



## golfergirl

I hear you jld. Let's hoope cyclist gets the courage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Racism can be overcome. There are good hearted people who are prejudiced but they often will relinquish their fears and suspicions when they need to open their minds.

The problem with you GF is her zero sum mentality. That attitude is deeply ingrained.


----------



## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> She sounds like a very frightened person, Cyclist. * People who are racist are fearful people. *Fearful people are controlling people.
> 
> If you were stronger, I think you could guide her out of this, help her move beyond her fears. She needs someone to make her feel safe, so she can be more accepting.


Or sometimes insecure. The thought that a person of color could be 1) better educated: 2) more popular; 3) more wealthy or whatever. 

The only way they can deal with it is to pull out the race card.


----------



## Cyclist

NextTimeAround said:


> Or sometimes insecure. The thought that a person of color could be 1) better educated: 2) more popular; 3) more wealthy or whatever.
> 
> The only way they can deal with it is to pull out the race card.


This is a good point but I do not think in her case it is correct. When she says that's the way she was brought up she is right. It is ingrained in her system that races should not mix.

We had a relatively short conversation last night and I thought it was interesting to hear her past. She was raised on a farm that has been in the family 8 generations. Her grandfather, who she admired very much, actually took in a minority family and put them up on in a house on the property and the family worked for him for years. The father of the family would get in trouble and he would get him out. He helped them financially, helped to make sure the kids got through school, etc. So I asked where does the fear come from?? She says its not fear she just firmly believes she would be uncomfortable with someone in the house. Its like a brick wall. Its almost like an excuse. Something else is not right here and I can not seem to get to the bottom of it.

She talked to her grandmother last night (other side of the family) because she says she trusts her judgement. Her grandmother said my GF is the most caring of all of her grandkids, that she treats everyone with respect (well almost everyone) and while she understands my viewpoint she also understands my GF's that she would not be comfortable. Sounds like grandma is just trying to keep peace.

Then GF went on to say if this was to happen and her kids father found out that he would demand that the kids stay with him (so hes a racist too) and that we did not have to tell the young lady why she could not come over. In her words "all things don't have to necessarily be straight forward" In other words cover it up.

I held my angst over all this last night. After the e mails I just settled down and spent time with my daughters. Their driving test is Thursday so we just practiced for a couple of hours.

Counseling on Thursday. I think I am going to unload my feelings in front of a third party and maybe with the input of the counselor she just might get a grip on her feelings towards this.
If anything else maybe in her future she will think twice before she does this again even when I am not around.


----------



## Deejo

Have you read this book?

Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men: Wayne M. Levine: 9780979054402: Amazon.com: Books

If not, you need to.

Going to throw my 2 cents in here ... bringing up the racism piece in therapy is a red herring. It's a macguffin. If you do choose to address this issue in therapy ... racism is not what you should focus on.

The issue ... as it affects your relationship, is that she would rather deflect her discomfort, and make it the responsibility of you and your kids. The African American friend was simply a vehicle for demonstrating the problem and behavior dynamic THAT ALREADY EXISTS.

And serious question ... I may have missed it, what is your 'goal' with counseling?


----------



## Cyclist

Deejo said:


> Have you read this book?
> 
> Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men: Wayne M. Levine: 9780979054402: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> If not, you need to.
> 
> Going to throw my 2 cents in here ... bringing up the racism piece in therapy is a red herring. It's a macguffin. If you do choose to address this issue in therapy ... racism is not what you should focus on.
> 
> The issue ... as it affects your relationship, is that she would rather deflect her discomfort, and make it the responsibility of you and your kids. The African American friend was simply a vehicle for demonstrating the problem and behavior dynamic THAT ALREADY EXISTS.
> 
> And serious question ... I may have missed it, what is your 'goal' with counseling?


The goal for counseling was to figure out why we continue to butt heads on some of our issues, how to handle it better when we do, and really to see if we are truly compatible. Your right its not just the racist issue its how it was handled. Like so many other of our issues its the reaction to what comes up. 

Downloaded the book. Ill get through it over the next few days.


----------



## Deejo

I did counseling twice with my ex. There just comes a time when the rubber meets the road. It's time to stop talking and actually 'do' the work.

This is why I stopped therapy. My ex would go in, nod, say she understood what the therapist was saying, and agree that interacting and responding differently was a great idea. Moment we walked out the door, it was business as usual.

Keep your goal in mind ... and decide if the goal is really why you are both still going.


----------



## jld

NextTimeAround said:


> Or sometimes insecure. The thought that a person of color could be 1) better educated: 2) more popular; 3) more wealthy or whatever.
> 
> The only way they can deal with it is to pull out the race card.


I think that is what insecurity is: fear. And fearful people are controlling. 

People who feel powerless are going to seek it any way they can. Some are going to try to feel powerful by putting down other races. Anything to help them feel better about themselves.

Empowering them, not only through education, and exposure to other races, but probably through better job opportunities, could go a long way towards ending racism.

You have to feel sorry for racists. They are limiting themselves. They don't know what great people they are missing out on.


----------



## jld

Cyclist said:


> This is a good point but I do not think in her case it is correct. When she says that's the way she was brought up she is right. It is ingrained in her system that races should not mix.
> 
> We had a relatively short conversation last night and I thought it was interesting to hear her past. She was raised on a farm that has been in the family 8 generations. Her grandfather, who she admired very much, actually took in a minority family and put them up on in a house on the property and the family worked for him for years. The father of the family would get in trouble and he would get him out. He helped them financially, helped to make sure the kids got through school, etc. So I asked where does the fear come from?? She says its not fear she just firmly believes she would be uncomfortable with someone in the house. Its like a brick wall. Its almost like an excuse. Something else is not right here and I can not seem to get to the bottom of it.
> 
> She talked to her grandmother last night (other side of the family) because she says she trusts her judgement. Her grandmother said my GF is the most caring of all of her grandkids, that she treats everyone with respect (well almost everyone) and while she understands my viewpoint she also understands my GF's that she would not be comfortable. Sounds like grandma is just trying to keep peace.
> 
> Then GF went on to say if this was to happen and her kids father found out that he would demand that the kids stay with him (so hes a racist too) and that we did not have to tell the young lady why she could not come over. In her words "all things don't have to necessarily be straight forward" In other words cover it up.
> 
> I held my angst over all this last night. After the e mails I just settled down and spent time with my daughters. Their driving test is Thursday so we just practiced for a couple of hours.
> 
> Counseling on Thursday. I think I am going to unload my feelings in front of a third party and maybe with the input of the counselor she just might get a grip on her feelings towards this.
> If anything else maybe in her future she will think twice before she does this again even when I am not around.


I would not negotiate with her. I would tell her the kid is coming over, period. See what she does. 

What is the risk for you? I bet she would appreciate your standing up to her.

Our ds5 had a fear of small fruit . Would scream when I brought grapes, blueberries, whatever into the room. So when I wanted to eat them, I would go in my room.

Ds started screaming one day when I forgot and started eating some blueberries at the table. Dh happened to be home. Dh picked up the blueberries, went over to where ds was sitting, and said some stuff in French, like, _This is ridiculous! You are not going to control our household with your fear! _ And then he put the blueberries next to ds, who sat still for a while with those berries next to him.

Ds5 is in France now, and dd19 told me her grandma has berries and other small fruit in the house, on the table, etc., and ds doesn't say anything.

*Establish dominance in the relationship, Cyclist, if you decide to continue it. *

You are a good man with the right ideas, and if she would listen to you, she would become a better person. 

_And I am not saying the relationship should continue!_


----------



## Cyclist

Deejo said:


> I did counseling twice with my ex. There just comes a time when the rubber meets the road. It's time to stop talking and actually 'do' the work.
> 
> This is why I stopped therapy. My ex would go in, nod, say she understood what the therapist was saying, and agree that interacting and responding differently was a great idea. Moment we walked out the door, it was business as usual.
> 
> Keep your goal in mind ... and decide if the goal is really why you are both still going.


Wow. book is enlightening. Ive been listening on audio during my work day.

I like it a lot better than no more Mr Nice guy. Though that book had its points I did not necessarily like the delivery.

This has some great information. I am making some mistakes there is no doubt. A lot of them from the bigger issue frustrations.

I find it interesting that he asks you to tell your SO how you feel and stand your ground on your feelings. Don't try and give reasons or debate your feelings. These are your feelings. If a discussion escalates you basically say "I do not want to discuss this anymore" and walk away.

So she can respect your feelings or she can be upset about it and pout or whatever.

This is where GF and I fail. And probably where I fail.

It goes like this: " I am going to take my son out of town for a couple of days" 
" I don't think that's a good idea because he does not come around and does not accept me as being part of your life" 

"I understand how you feel but I need to reconnect with him and this is how I have decided to do it" 

"you don't understand how I feel and by saying your going to do this you think my feelings do not matter"

Escalates from there.

So I expect her to understand my feelings about this but she also expects me to understand hers. By not doing what she asks she believes I am discounting her feelings.

Personally on this issue I believe her "feelings" are misplaced. How can you stand in the way of my relationship, or need of one, with my son? So I basically say "this is whats happening and I am not going to argue about it"

So what happens when you strongly believe one way, she strongly believes another (like the racism issue) and you are at an impasse??

Is that when you just decide your values are different and you just can not move forward?


----------



## jld

Yep. On the small things, you can agree to disagree. 

On the big things . . . you have to break up. You are not married, after all.


----------



## that_girl

Well, in that case, her feelings do not matter.

She'd get a big finger from me. My kids come first in situations like that and if anyone said I couldn't do something with my kid, god help them.


----------



## Cyclist

jld said:


> I would not negotiate with her. I would tell her the kid is coming over, period. See what she does.
> 
> What is the risk for you? I bet she would appreciate your standing up to her.
> 
> Our ds5 had a fear of small fruit . Would scream when I brought grapes, blueberries, whatever into the room. So when I wanted to eat them, I would go in my room.
> 
> Ds started screaming one day when I forgot and started eating some blueberries at the table. Dh happened to be home. Dh picked up the blueberries, went over to where ds was sitting, and said some stuff in French, like This is ridiculous! You are not going to control our household with your fear! And then he put the blueberries next to ds, who sat still for a while with those berries next to them.
> 
> Ds5 is in France now, and dd19 told me her grandma has berries and other small fruit in the house, on the table, etc., and ds doesn't say anything.
> 
> *Establish dominance in the relationship, Cyclist, if you decide to continue it. *
> 
> You are a good man with the right ideas, and if she would listen to you, she would become a better person.
> 
> _And I am not saying the relationship should continue!_


Thats a great story. Facing my fears never used to be a problem. The divorce and the financial catastrophe I went through made me think twice about decisions. There is a happy medium here somewhere. 

and as far as your last sentence at this point I just want to be a better person and understand the relationship dynamic better.

there may be to much water under the bridge at this point. But for myself and moving forward I do not want to be in this same situation again.


----------



## jld

Cyclist said:


> Thats a great story. Facing my fears never used to be a problem. The divorce and the financial catastrophe I went through made me think twice about decisions. There is a happy medium here somewhere.
> 
> and as far as your last sentence at this point I just want to be a better person and understand the relationship dynamic better.
> 
> there may be to much water under the bridge at this point. But for myself and moving forward I do not want to be in this same situation again.


I know. That is why you are reading the book Deejo mentioned and trying to better yourself.

I think you have a lot of potential, Cyclist. And I am glad to see you are taking initiative to develop it.


----------



## Deejo

Thus, the Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms

I found NMMNG beneficial for recognizing some behaviors and traits. 

I found N.U.T's to be to the better resource for changing them.


Hell, I used to ask permission and negotiate everything. Simply because I thought that was considerate and respectful. It breeds neither of those things reciprocally.



Cyclist said:


> Wow. book is enlightening. Ive been listening on audio during my work day.
> 
> I like it a lot better than no more Mr Nice guy. Though that book had its points I did not necessarily like the delivery.
> 
> This has some great information. I am making some mistakes there is no doubt. A lot of them from the bigger issue frustrations.
> 
> I find it interesting that he asks you to tell your SO how you feel and stand your ground on your feelings. Don't try and give reasons or debate your feelings. These are your feelings. If a discussion escalates you basically say "I do not want to discuss this anymore" and walk away.
> 
> So she can respect your feelings or she can be upset about it and pout or whatever.
> 
> This is where GF and I fail. And probably where I fail.
> 
> It goes like this: " I am going to take my son out of town for a couple of days"
> " I don't think that's a good idea because he does not come around and does not accept me as being part of your life"
> 
> "I understand how you feel but I need to reconnect with him and this is how I have decided to do it"
> 
> "you don't understand how I feel and by saying your going to do this you think my feelings do not matter"
> 
> Escalates from there.
> 
> So I expect her to understand my feelings about this but she also expects me to understand hers. By not doing what she asks she believes I am discounting her feelings.
> 
> Personally on this issue I believe her "feelings" are misplaced. How can you stand in the way of my relationship, or need of one, with my son? So I basically say "this is whats happening and I am not going to argue about it"
> 
> So what happens when you strongly believe one way, she strongly believes another (like the racism issue) and you are at an impasse??
> 
> Is that when you just decide your values are different and you just can not move forward?


----------



## Cyclist

Deejo said:


> Thus, the Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms
> 
> I found NMMNG beneficial for recognizing some behaviors and traits.
> 
> I found N.U.T's to be to the better resource for changing them.
> 
> 
> Hell, I used to ask permission and negotiate everything. Simply because I thought that was considerate and respectful. It breeds neither of those things reciprocally.


I can see myself that way also. Trying to make everyone happy. Being a pleaser never works in the long run.


----------



## Cyclist

I also have a huge resentment issue that has built up. That's pretty obvious.

By giving in on core values other things that really should not be an issue become one. Just to stand my ground. Its a viscous circle.

And she resents me also because she believes she is giving in to what she thinks is important. If I do not do it her way she sees that as me discounting her feelings.

What a great situation!! lol Its such an emotional rollercoaster


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> If you were stronger,


JLD - I give you the benefit of the doubt on this, so here goes:

Sometimes you come off as very condescending when you don't intend it to be that way. Here is one of those examples. This isn't a case of Cyclist being "weak." 

You don't say the word "weak" but when you say "if you were stronger" that is the inference.

Sorry, bit it's not nice. You really should knock it off. 



jld said:


> I think you could guide her out of this, help her move beyond her fears. She needs someone to make her feel safe, so she can be more accepting.


Screw that. This isn't just about him. He's got two daughters to worry about too. He owes it to those two girls to do right by them.


----------



## jld

Just remember that you have the power. You are holding all of it, because she wants to get married and you do not.

Use your power for the highest good of yourself and her and all of your kids. Be the boss. You are not the type to discount anyone's feelings anyway. It is a groundless fear.

She has lots of groundless fears, Cyclist. I think your establishing dominance, and maintaining it, could overcome all of them.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> JLD - I give you the benefit of the doubt on this, so here goes:
> 
> Sometimes you come off as very condescending when you don't intend it to be that way. Here is one of those examples. This isn't a case of Cyclist being "weak."
> 
> You don't say the word "weak" but when you say "if you were stronger" that is the inference.
> 
> Sorry, bit it's not nice. You really should knock it off.
> How do you want me to say it?
> 
> Screw that. This isn't just about him. He's got two daughters to worry about too. He owes it to those two girls to do right by them. I hear you.
> 
> But he has told us many times he would leave, and hasn't. Just in case he stays, I want to give him actionable advice.


----------



## Cyclist

larry.gray said:


> JLD - I give you the benefit of the doubt on this, so here goes:
> 
> Sometimes you come off as very condescending when you don't intend it to be that way. Here is one of those examples. This isn't a case of Cyclist being "weak."
> 
> You don't say the word "weak" but when you say "if you were stronger" that is the inference.
> 
> Sorry, bit it's not nice. You really should knock it off.
> 
> 
> 
> Screw that. This isn't just about him. He's got two daughters to worry about too. He owes it to those two girls to do right by them.


Its ok Larry. It was not taken that way. 

She is a weak point in my life. OBVIOUSLY. If I was "stronger" I either would have left by now, or I would have stood up to these issues all along and not allowed it to get this far.

It was not taken as an insult whatsoever.

While I do stand up in certain instances I do not in others. The wishy washy is probably a bit confusing and she does not know the boundaries under certain circumstances

However that does not overcome the core issues of race/kids/time.


----------



## jld

Cyclist seems like an openminded guy. He is not picky about how he gets advice. 

I think he just wants good advice, however it is packaged.


----------



## that_girl

So break up with her.


----------



## Cyclist

WorkingOnMe said:


> Cyclist, when you divorced which one of you filed? Have you ever been the one to dump a woman? I get the impression that you don't really have any deal breakers. You don't have any Non-negotiable Unalterable Terms, so to speak. You'd like to, and you think you should have them, but at the end of the day you're driven by fear and that fear is much more powerful than any objections you have. That's why you've never left and why you never will. I'm wondering if you should surrender, just go completely submissive and learn to live with her the way she is. That would be better for your sanity. You wouldn't have to live with all of this conflicting tension about your "core values".


I left my first wife. I filed. We settled and the end result was amicable. I had multiple opportunities to go back and did not.

Your right I have not set my Non negotiable terms. Maybe its because I have my faults she has accepted and I believed I should accept some of hers. Thus I did not set the non negotiable, but everything became negotiable. 

I was not the rock and then trying to establish it at this point is difficult.


----------



## that_girl

I mean, will her core values change? Or will she just tolerate yours?


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> How do you want me to say it?


Just plain knock of the "strong" and "weak" comments. Leave them out because they turn into a distraction.

You're giving good advice here (other than this part). Phrase it as "if you do stay, this is what you need to do." I concur with what you're advising.


----------



## jld

You know the saying, "Our weaknesses are our strengths pushed to extreme," Cyclist? I think your openmindedness and compassionate heart, in the case of your girlfriend, get pushed to wishy washy and being taken advantage of. 

They are great strengths. Many people will never have an open mind. Their ability to grow will be limited.

Just keep in mind that you are a great guy, who is brave enough to face his weaknesses head on. You do have the ability to set boundaries and enforce them. Developing it will help you either with this woman, or the next one.


----------



## Cyclist

that_girl said:


> I mean, will her core values change? Or will she just tolerate yours?


I want to believe the racism issue could be changed with time. 

The constant neediness and manipulation of my time will probably not change. And If it did I would end up paying for it some time.

The jealousy over my kids and money will probably never change.

Those are large issues. Hard for me to put my foot down at this point. Deal breakers.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> Just plain knock of the "strong" and "weak" comments. Leave them out because they turn into a distraction.
> 
> You're giving good advice here (other than this part). Phrase it as "if you do stay, this is what you need to do." I concur with what you're advising.


Are those "trigger" words for some men, Larry? Like "pretty" and "ugly" for women? They can't see past them, to the bigger message? Is that what is happening?


----------



## larry.gray

Yep. You're right on target JLD.


----------



## jacko jack

To all those reading this in the United States greetings from the other side of the pond.

After 20 years I thought that I had forgotten about my first marriage, I paid for step-children for about over ten years, all told for about 26 child years, the moment that these "children" had left home my ex-wife had an affair with one of her clients, I had to give the ex-wife my house which I had provided. I can put up with this however, recently I have received an e-mail stating could I provide the two children with photographs of there younger years, I will gladly do this, however one asked what my mother's name was, my mother was only married once unlike my ex-wife who has been married four times?. However the pain does ease with laughter, I do believe the latest is to LOL, who laughs last, laughs loudest.


----------



## jld

Cyclist, haven't seen you around for a long time. How are things going?


----------

