# Big situational change...advice please !!! Ladies !



## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

Hi everyone, 

OK, after several weeks of LC and 180, my wife seems to be coming around. It required me to force her hand by putting a date on my move out ( we live in a rented house and I am the one here ). To get into details that led up to this too long.

The weekend prior she started to become sweeter and we talked a little and I said that we should look for help to try at least. She said MC not me. I calmly agreed.

Anyway fast forward to the " I need to move out on such and such a date " I also told her I had opened my own banking account and was going to get my own cell phone account. Her response " why are you pushing ? but then she threw a zinger at me saying that she didn't want to say anything but that she had been thinking about my son, her and I moving into the new house that might close next week " This was by e-mail so I was able to throw my head back in shock without her knowing.

I took some time but then responded. Please don't get spooked by what you have just said. Yes we have been separated and on edge for 7 months, but hack through all of the ugly weeds around us and at the core remains someone who pulled your hair back when you were ill, who knows your favorite color, how to talk you down by phone when your having a panic attack. We hack through all of that and I believe we can find a clearing.

She said she didn't want to move back to this place because it had nothing but bad memories. She also said she was very scared. I told her that i would not push or force anything. And so on.

That was a week ago and I have played it cool. She now sends me e-mails about the near future all in the context of " we ". My responses have all been cool, collected and practical.

I did slip in a " you looked very pretty in that outfit " but that was the extent of my wooing.

I am scared too, worried that she is trying to keep me on side but she could do that by just being sweet. The " maybe we should move in together " is big, and that she said she was scared also tells plenty about a genuine fear that we could fall flat.

Should this move together actually happen I am looking at a set of plans that will ensure that we do not simply fall back into old habits that we address the terrible communication absences that have happened over the last years etc. Maybe a couples retreat. I would have shun such a thought a mere year ago. 

So I do have a question. How do I take things from here on in. I know it has to be slow and as mentioned I too am scared that i could be hurt again, so I am not diving into this one head first. But should I gently start wooing her with small romantic gestures. I am not going to take her, because there is a lot of damage and fear between the two of us and it won't work with my wife. She is too scared. But at what point do I maybe begin to make little gestures of romance and loving. I have no problems doing this, I can be very romantic. I am very in touch with my feminine side although these last years it was lost by complacency.

But do I still need to stay aloof right now ? I continue to keep contact friendly and to show her the good guy that was lost for a while. 

Thoughts on what stage we are in right now ? 

I have read enough on this board of guys who jumped in too early and rushed. I will not push. I know that failure is still a possibility and as mentioned I am preparing the back up. I even met someone on a dating site, she came to me, very pretty. Have not met her yet but will just to see. She is not a back up plan by any means, but I am not going to waste an opportunity to find a new friend / love interest, but I also will not pursue in any way until I believe my wife and I have exhausted all options.

But I still love my wife deeply and want my family back, so I want to play this intelligently. My heart wants to charge back, although this would just blow up in my face anyway because my wife is not there by any means. Right now, I believe she is just dipping her toe into the water. 

Advice please...do I slowly advance and become a little more flirty or do I continue to stay back. I think she finally understand what I want, her and this marriage. But I am no longer the pathetic panting dog I was months ago. Now I am cool and collected ( more on the outside than inside ). I am taking control of what is around me but also not sharing very much with her.

What do I do when please ? I think I know but now this has become more nuances. I have been reeling myself into her sphere from a distance but then reeling back in the dark, do i prolong those moments I spend in her sphere. A big change has been in how I feel around her. I am no longer desperate to hold her nor do I feel the same longing, but its there.

Thank you all !


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore (Apr 7, 2011)

Other than your wife talking sweeter (as you described) and stating she “wants” certain things, has she shown a change in actions? e.g.; Did she discontinue contact with the man she was having EA with? Has she admitted to other family members (other than sister) what happened and where she has been staying when not under the same roof as you? Has she taken ownership for the things she did and how it has hurt you throughout all of this? You seem to have taken ownership for the previous mistakes you made which caused her pain in your marriage.

I would be very leery if she has not taken ownership and accountability for her actions in anyway. There are always consequences for our bad choices. I worry that you will be putting out a lot of effort to be hurt again if she is not willing to be held accountable for her bad choices.


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

Toto, I do understand what your saying completely which is why I remain very leery. However, there are cases in which it takes time for people to come round. 

I have read many stories from women on this site who had taken that long year to walk away from their husbands, because they felt that they were done. To expect anyone to turn around and confess or any of the things you mention when they may have just starting turning back, is I believe expecting to much.

This could be the beginning of her turn around or not. Making demands that she come clean would do nothing but turn her back into the other direction.

I have also read of stories where, if the spouse has been left does feel responsible for pushing his wife away, there is an admission that if it hadn't been for their being emotionally unavailable for too long that it would never have happened. Therefore no matter what the wife has done, if there is a decision to try to reconcile, the husband chooses not to address what happened during that difficult time. 

It must also be said that my wife has been dealing with a dying step Mother ( wife has been in hospital almost every night ) a Father who was assaulted badly and pretty much has lost sight in one eye, and has become very needy. In other words, she has and continues to have a ton on her plate. Adding a demanding husband to the list would be almost selfish but most certainly would backfire.

This is a huge risk. I am still not sure and am scared, but 3 weeks ago, as far as she was concerned this marriage was over and we were both getting our own apts. In that time I shut down almost completely, but also did do a complete 180 when I did communicate. 

I am not saying that mine is one of these cases, but it is a fact that sometimes separations allow the dust to settle and allows people to think more clearly about what they could be losing. My wife has admitted to missing her family and so on. She has admitted that she has been thinking about me in the context of the good times and shockingly she has opened the idea of MC. But she also says she is very scared about the thought of a possible reconciliation. I think that is completely fair. I hadn't been there for her emotionally for too long. Expecting to take it on faith that this will never happen again, and having her open her heart so soon, I believe is asking too much at this stage.

Again 3 weeks ago, no way, were moving separately. " I have been thinking that we move back in together in a new space, a fresh space " and discussions of what " we " are going to do at this point in the future. In other words signs that she is coming around. I push and it will turn her the other way. So I need to be patient right now and take that risk. 

She really gains nothing by saying the things she has. She was set to move forward separately. She makes a little more than I do, so it isn't money, we have been sharing our son 50/50 and she has made no demands from me whatsover, but I know that she has spent the last weeks paying attention to how I behaved with my responsibilities in life, our son, my job etc. and I have been solid as a rock on all fronts. Could it not be possible that someone needs a lot of time to come back round from such a determined decision to leave a marriage ?

So I understand the risks...the question is as I have absolutely no doubts that this woman loved me deeply for a great deal of our marriage ( in love ) of 20 years, if I am showing I am going to be there emotionally for her and in so many other ways, how should I behave at this very delicate stage in order try to reel her back in ? I repeat, this marriage was essentially over 3 weeks ago, now she talking about moving back in together. 

Let us just assume that she is being completely genuine, which while very scared to dive in to that belief, I do believe is very possible, then how do I behave from this point. Keeping in mind that I am ready to forgive the EA, because I believe I caused this entire mess.

Right now that is what I need. Uncertainty of what her motives are, I have covered, but if there is a chance to continue to pull her in my direction, which is what i want very badly, what is the best course of action at this stage so that things aren't rushed and an very important opportunity wasted. ?


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

I agree. Actions don't just speak louder than words - they're really all that you can work from at this point (positively and negatively).

What you can do is let her know nicely and sweetly that her words are appreciated, but it will be all about her actions. Sort of quiet coaching. Fear of her getting spooked early after sticking her toe in the water is underestimating the serious work ahead if R is to come.

Hoping all works out for you for the best outcome.


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

2xloser, thank you for your response. You are absolutely right. Actions are what I need but words have their value at this point in the game, especially given the words were what hurt most when I got the I still love you but and all of the other very difficult things she said about how this was over. Those were words and they mattered, so for the words to have changed from that to...

An action...my wife agreed for us to hang out as a family this coming Monday...there are other very little things, such as more communication...her tone...and so on. Minute under normal circumstances but huge actions in these conditions.

However, you are right, while I believe I need to coax her and remind her that I want this, I still need to keep at a distance and make her come to me. 

Being sweet is the key, because this was what was lacking for a number of years. I wasn't mean i just wasn't there. Which is why I ask about the possibility that slowly and carefully is now the time to start doing a little wooing, to flirt a little without pushing ? Big question and likely no one has the answer but I need to ask.

Every new event in the last months has required a re-calibration for me but typically I have gotten back on the horse and continued to strengthen.

Merci


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Just don't be so sweet that it appears that you are sweeping her actions under the rug. This won't be helpful in the long term.

Is she remorseful? If she's remorseful, stop the 180 and tell her you will in fact be willing to work on the marriage if she commits with action.

The trick is...and I know you feel like you didn't give her too much attention, which is 50 percent of the problem....but you can't give her too much attention. And what I mean is don't get too sappy to quick. Treat it like you just met. Cautious, and feeling out the relationship. Be nice, compliment, but not too over the top. Just like you started dating.

She may be scared because of remorse? Not sure.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh yeah. Make your boundaries known. What I mean is....if you ever catch her contacting OM or finding out she's in another EA...you walk. This is the law of Frenchman.

Not sure how to tactfully bring that conversation up. Maybe in MC. Or maybe just say it.


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

Hey Alpha, thank you for the wise advice. You are absolutely right and I am not ready to be sweet yet. I have rolled out a few flashes of sweet but my tone has remained practical.

We haven't seen each other in a few days and there has been little chatter between us other than our son, so yesterday after giving her a quick run down of what I had done for the day with him, I felt compelled to ask if she was on the same path she had been on earlier in the week, as it pertained to us. In fact this is the wording and tone I used. Kept it practical.

Her response was " Yes. we will talk about it on Monday ". We are getting together on Monday as a family.

I am no way near ready to be Mr. Sweet, I have too much pride for that and this approach served me very poorly. I do have some rules, but they will pertain to how we go about trying to fix this...on the OM/EA, I will hold off on that until I truly feel I have her back in my grasp. Fact is that no matter how much law I lay down, I can't spent 24/7 with her so if she wants to continue to contact OM, there is very little I can do and I won't play the monitor all communications game.

Prior to deciding she was thinking about giving us a second shot, she pulled out the stuff she thought I would want for my new apt, out of the garage. Yesterday, I went through it all, kept everything I would keep and put it all in the spare bedroom. In other words, I have sorted everything out in such a way that I am ready to make that move out on my own. I have my own bank account, my own credit cards and had my work cut me a hard check for my salary which I have not deposited yet in our joint account.

I am not falling back into this like a fool. She said we'll talk Monday, I will take that chance to listen to what she has to offer. I will be attentive and listen carefully. I will ask her one question. Why do you want to get back together. I need to slowly take back control of this situation and how I do that will depend on how she responds. She is still in " cold " mode.

We shall see but thank you for the very wise advice. 

On the " another EA " your absolutely right...if we do get back together this rule will be chiseled in stone. However, I know without hesitation that this EA was 100% a way for her to do what she thought she had to do with the security of knowing there would be a man in the picture to help her out. 

Many many miles left to travel...thanks again Omega !


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

You should have taken the better road.......to a new woman. Now shes regrouping because shes gotten away with it. SHE WILL continue to see other men. Whether you believe it or not. Your "not going to monitor communications" tactic is exactly what she needs and wants. Now she can continue to audition other men to take your spot in the "house that's going to close" while you get to pay for it in the divorce. Remember I told you this later on when she airs you out in divorce court. 

You guys thinking you're "winning back your wife" with this 180 trash amuse me. Cheating women love the 180. They get rid of you for a while and can continue their little playtime and then when they realize the bills need to be paid they call the good old doormat cuckold husband/bf and you guys fall for it. 

You only win when you walk away from cheaters. Not play their game and let them have their cake and eat it too. You had the right idea, but all it took was one "nice email" for you to be back to the doormat you were originally. You wont find out about the next guy, trust me, she will cover her tracks well. 

You WILL find out about him when hes in court with her when shes divorcing you, and when hes living in the house you paid (and will continue to pay) for. Don't take my word for it. Ask the other 125,458,984 million men who your exact situation has happened to. Good luck

Ronin


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Ronin aren’t you the guy that cans a woman at the first sign of trouble? For many of us it just isn’t that easy. There maybe kiddies involved and leaving entails not seeing them whenever we want and being a part time dad, not what we signed up for. There’s finances involved most especially in the family home and pensions so there’s likely to be a massive financial loss if the marriage fails. And of course there’s that love for the woman. So many of us don’t run at the first signs of trouble and there are many reasons why we don’t. But that’s not to say we like being betrayed any more than anyone else does.

But the 180 is certainly no way to romance a woman or to manipulate her to return and in that Frenchman is wrong if that’s what he’s trying to do.

The 180 is a way to get on with your life, work on self-improvement and remove yourself from the dysfunctional dynamics with your wife. To let her get on with her life and make up her own mind if she wants in our out of her marriage. Only if she decides her H is her Plan A should Frenchman then enter into a reconciliation program with her.

Bob


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

Ronin, you are a bitter man with an overly simplistic view of human nature. Someone who simply doesn't appreciate that each story has it's nuance. 

I am not going to even bother trying to outline my story because it would be a waste of time.

If you went through this and your family wasn't worth the risk then I am happy for you.

By the way, I don't need to monitor her communications. I smelled her EA a mile away. I didn't need to.

If you have nothing positive to add to the conversation then please get off my thread. I have already made all the moves to break off from my wife, but I am not ready to piss it all away on account of people like you who view the world in black and white and who see only failure.

You pull out a big figure about the divorce rate but there are countless real marriages and families that were originally based on love that have been saved. 

If you weren't able to do things correctly to save your own, you have my sympathies but I am not going to piss away what I could have based on your paranoia.


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore (Apr 7, 2011)

frenchmanfl ~

You sound like a guy who really wants his family back together. I have the best of wishes that things workout for you and your family. I hope your wife will see the efforts you are putting in to save your marriage and she will do the same. 

Change is very possible, but you have to want to achieve it. Sometimes we find our willingness to change from those situations which are most heartbreaking and distressing to us.


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

AFEH, I just wanted to clarify my take on the 180. The way I see the 180 is that it's about doing the opposite of what you were doing before. In my case, I became a bore and a grump. You mistake that I did it 100% to win her back, I didn't, in fact it has been a part of my change with or without her, but yes I have incorporated this in how I treat my wife. Yes there is a part of me that wants her to know that this has been my approach on things, but it's not for her, but I do see it as a tool.

I already changed before I moved down here. I shed all of the crap, but I also needed time to figure out how to communicate with my wife. Was anger and refusal to talk the answer. Sorry no that only creates more distance, so I decided to show her the caring good happy side without overdoing it.

I have spent a month on my own with limited communication with my wife and in that time I have set up my own bank account, obtained my own credit cards and have real estate agents looking for apartments for me. I have also gotten back to yoga and started getting comfortable with being on my own.

There are no strict answers to anything. A huge part of why I believe my wife is talking R, is exactly because I have started to forge my own path. She knows it and it can't be faked. I am not crawling back to her, quite the opposite. I have regained my confidence and self esteem, but these changes made are permanent and yes my love for my wife and family are in my plan.

This business of doing everything for yourself and refusing to admit that there is a component, a wish that your wife will notice these changes, is not telling the whole truth, but these changes are going to permanent. How I communicate with my wife etc.

What I believe has taken my wife this time is that she has wanted to see if my changes were actually going to stick.

As a final point, while many believe that the 180 is all about them, it's usually not. I have read countless stories. nine times out of ten it isn't exclusively about a husbands emotional detachement from the wife. I have read countless " had financial problems " etc. 

A marriage is a series of complex layers and while ultimately you are changing yourself in the 180, it also effects many of the things that might have been lacking in the marriage, so when you change those things that affected the marriage and the family then there is a natural desire for one to wish for the spouse to see these changes. In my case I believe that my wife's desire to possibly reconcile has been largely based on her wanting to know that I could be there for her beyond simply emotions, that I could be the family man and the partner that had been lost. There are practical sides to marriage. 

Again I think too many look at things as black and white, without considering the natural overlaps. Each relationship on this board requires it's own tweaks. When all of this happened, I knew exactly why they happened. I wasn't expecting it but that's because I spent 6 months on my own in our previous city working on the changes that I knew needed to be made. My wife just wasn't there to see it. So when I arrived she had spent months saying to herself it was over. I was so desperate to change her mind that I made all of the mistakes that only caused her to run further away. But I dusted myself off and pulled away. Got my sense of direction back and worked on showing her that I had already made the changes she had wanted but that she wasn't privy to. So I haven't really had to change much that hadn't already changed.

Again each relationship and situation has it's own nuances. There is no one size fits all.

I will say that in my wife's sudden turn around there has been only one sentence that has proven to me that she is serious. It was her repeated admissions that she is scared about putting her heart back on the line for us. This speaks volumes. It says that she probably still loves me but is not ready to unlock her heart. So my job now is to show her my confidence and to prove to her that there will be no risk, that I am the man she has hoped for.

If she ends up continuing the EA or having another one, OK...i have already proven I can go it alone. I am not going to close the new bank account or cut up my CC. Getting an apt on my own is doable and I am not worried to be alone. Right now I want my family back and I think she does too. I will not buckle and I am going to set rules on how we go about trying to find each other again. 

When once I would have joked about this, I am going to insist we go on a couple's retreat. I am going to insist that we both write down on paper what we want for the future and what we don't want from the other partner. This is all going to be done intelligently. If she isn't game then I walk.

Let's admit that it is impossible through a forum to understand everything that is happening or going through a person's head or what there motives are. When people come here, like me it is at points of uncertainty. Lot's will have happened, the little details, that would take reams of pages to recount. I think it's not very wise to judge how one person is playing his or her " game ".

I am fully prepared for things to fall apart. I am also, while I have my days of tears, also hardened in the heart. I am not ready to let go of the many months that have passed, the pain and the anger, so I am inching towards my wife, but ready to jump back if I feel she isn't genuine. When you have lived with someone for 20+ years, no matter how much they might have changed on the surface, down deep you do know them and if you wait long enough you usually can sense what their motives are. I still have determined if my wife's are genuine but as mentioned that one sentence " I am scared to get back together " says that it's not all calculation and I understand why she is scared.


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you Toto...you are right, I am determined to get my family back. I love my wife and she stuck it out with me through some tough times, risked her heart for many years. One doesn't do this unless there is love deep deep down. I was complicated and on my own search and she put up with it. 

It's my turn to pay the piper and take the risks. My turn to work and quiet confident determination can work. The key to the lessons I have learned have been not to push or to cave. 

My wife is a very complicated woman too and even her family have questioned how I could deal with how she behaves. But I believe what has kept my wife drawn to me has been my ability to absorb these difficult things.

I am going to ask her to please go to counseling on her own, because she has issues. But it's simple, I love this woman and my family and I know she loves her family to. 

I think she believed I wasn't capable of going it alone, that I was dependent on her to do everything. Wrong, she always wanted to be in control, but she got tired of that in the end. By forging my own path over the last months, I proven what I said to her way back when, that I don't need her, I want her.

We shall see, a very quiet starting gun has gone off so I am going to hold back but slowly take gentle control of the situation. I used to wear my heart on my sleeve and used to express my every thought and emotion to her. No more. I keep very quiet when she talks, I release just enough for her to know that I have been listening and that I care. This is part of my 180 and it does effect how I treat my wife. I am a very passionate man so I needed to take control of my emotions on every front. 

Anyway, more than you needed to know. Thank you very much for your wishes. I am no fool, this could still fall apart but I believe if it's done intelligently, this R could work. Too many I have read walk in to R without a long term plan to chip away at. MC is not the only step that needs to be taken and the 180 has to stick. I suspect I am going to have to keep my wife on her toes for a long time to come, to keep her guessing. I will not pant nor will I beg. I am too proud for that. I believe these elements of my nature are what appealed to my wife and they are back. 

I am not saying I won't have days of panic or sorrow but my wife has seen none of this over the last month. Even when I was in the worst of states if my wife texted me or called, I replied secure and happy. Quite a challenge indeed.

No more heart on the sleeve. Part of my 180 =)


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

FrenchMan, of course every situation is uniquely different. Think about this one for a bit. Doing the 180 is exceptionally different to saying “I am divorcing you because you had an affair”. So of course the husband doing the 180 wants his wife “back”. Of coursed he does otherwise he would initiate divorce proceedings.

But surely the man’s wife “must want back” at least as much as her husband wants her back. Otherwise the marriage simply isn’t going to work.

Sounds like in your own ways you’re both scared to get back together. I think a marriage retreat is a superb idea. Especially one that teaches forgiveness and the personal benefits of it because that's a good place to start with reconciliation.


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

AFEH, you are absolutely right, the wife does have to want the husband back...my wife was the one who has brought up reconciliation back into the discussion. Any inference to that in my dialogue has been brief and with words like " you know what I want ".

She has said we will talk more tomorrow and I will listen. Moving back together is a massive step for her and can only mean that she wants to see if it can work, that there is something in her that says, you could lose him, which in turn means that she cares enough about me that she can't see my not being in her life in the capacity as husband, that when once she might have thought the alternative might be exciting and new, that maybe it's not as great as hoped.

If you have read my story along it's course, please note that I asked her to leave and move down to EA's place. This should shine a little light on my purpose. I let her hurt me for several months and then I said " go " I want to heal.

You are absolutely right about the need for her to want me back, but this is where patience is needed because I will not get this right away. Right now get back together, identify a new direction with a plan, execute that plan as best as possible and work on chipping away at the wall around her heart. She will not suddenly be " back ". I wish that would happen, but the hard work on my part is not near done.

As mentioned she did a lot of heavy lifting in our marriage so now it's my turn, without sacrificing my dignity or my pride. I am looking at it as working for my family, not my wife and in my belief that some marriages end up better than ever if they manage to survive these mid life disasters. 

I appreciate everything you have said AFEH. Just wanted to ensure that my strategy was not misinterpreted. =)


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes. And don't make all your changes about her or what she wants. Remember your strength and new found "old" independence. In fact, don't do it for her at all. Do it for you. If she likes what she sees then that's great. Start reconciliation.

Also remember that you have needs to. Great sex life, social activities, whatever. You need those things too. For your happiness. And in the end, both your happinesses!


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks again Alpha, absolutely right on all counts. Yours are opinions I can appreciate. I am much happier with myself, more confident and more secure. Ultimately it boils down to one thing...the moment one believes they can be out there alone, can make it without that other person, that is the moment that things start to turn around, whether the spouse sees it or not.

I cannot say I am there 100% and I still have moments of paranoia about her motives, but I see these as positives right now, my own refusal to allow myself to just fall back in blindly. 

This is why I am going to make it a slow cruise into things. 

We shall see what the future holds. Thanks again Alpha !


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

It's one of the most awesome feeling, isn't it?! Knowing that you actually changed, and have this inner strength and composure now that you never thought possible before? Now...you feel like a real man!

Insert ROAR here!

I went through this myself. It's empowering. Bittersweet, yes. But empowering.

You have a good head on your shoulders now. Keep it up! Only good things will come of this change in you!


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

For the record. I don't think Ronin is bitter or jaded at all. He found what works for him, and that is his own man up journey. He is happy with his boundaries, and that is really all any of us can ask. Will he change his technique later in life? Possibly. But it's his journey. 

With us, there are kids involved. That changes things to the nth degree. Our paternal instincts are high, and we really do want whats best for our kids....including the chance of forgiveness. This does not make us lesser men. It just means our journey is different, that's all.


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## frenchmanfl (Apr 9, 2011)

Hi Alpha, I appreciate your sticking up for Ronin and yes he does have his own approach and that is that, but he jumped on my thread and started ranting about how those of us who desire to continue to try and rescue our marriages were laughable.

This is a person who didn't bother to access things the way you seem to have done about his situation. Coming onto my thread and mocking my desire as weak and destined for failure was not constructive nor was it a sign of a person who interested in seeing any side other than his own.

What was his objective ? 

As you say, there is a lot at stake here for me and obviously you and a willingness to take things as far as they can go before throwing the towel is what called for.

Again I appreciate your willingness to give Ronin the benefit of the doubt but mockery when it is clear that some of us are ready to take the risks that we clearly understand with components ( our children ) that are of immeasurably value to us is what I call bitter. A few weeks ago, his message would have been received differently, but any expectation from him that I would heed his advice and walk when there might be a glimmer of hope to rescue things, is beyond ridiculous.

I was asking for advice on how to take this as far as it can be taken, intelligently. 

Sorry, I won't bestow the same forgiveness or give Ronin the benefit of the doubt. Even if he turns out to be right. This was not the time for his pessimism.

You on the other hand have offer wisdom with reality and warnings to tread carefully. These are the reminders I need, because I understand the risks and understand that this might not go as i hope.

We shall see. thanks again.


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## Ronin (Mar 18, 2011)

frenchmanfl said:


> Ronin, you are a bitter man with an overly simplistic view of human nature. Someone who simply doesn't appreciate that each story has it's nuance.
> 
> I am not going to even bother trying to outline my story because it would be a waste of time.
> 
> ...


The world IS black and white and I have a simplistic view of the world when it comes to relationships because complicating it doesn't work for me. We don't always have the whole story from the threads we respond to. I don't know who has kids or not or what the details of the scenario are. I read these threads randomly and respond based on what I read. I don't analyze everything and I probably should have before posting something so harsh or offensive. 

You're also correct, I am bitter. I'm bitter that men have gotten the short end of the stick in the relationship/divorce/marriage industry recently as a whole and I hope more men toughen up to this kind of behavior so that it is eradicated. 

I admire you wanting to make it work for your children. Every situation is unique and my blanket "leave immediately" obviously wont work for everyone. Im curious as to why I always hear the "jaded bitter" comments because I'm a man who wont accept infidelity in any forms, but if a woman refuses to be with a man who is unfaithful shes never called bitter or jaded. I have never heard those terms used with women. 

Some of us will never accept that, just like some men get punched one time and they go down and stay down and other men get jumped by 4 people and they fight back and win. Some of us wont accept certain things without incident. I decided which man I was long ago, and I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves which man they want to be.

Im single man who has never been married so I post from a single man's POV. Everytime I have gotten into a LTR with a woman something (infidelity was actually rare, its usually something else) has come up to end the relationship. When I strip away all the excess colors of the spectrum, im left with "black and white", and I respond based on that. We made vows, she broke vows, we will never speak again. Thats how I deal with betrayal in every situation. Friendship, business, love, games, whatever. 

Good luck with your situation. Your posts were articulate and you seem to have gained great resolve regarding your situation. We may not agree but I still respect your comments and responses.


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