# How we fixed it



## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

Maybe me posting my story might help some fix their problems.

So my Wife and I were having issues with sex, its not that we never had it but it just didn't happen as much as I wanted. It probably averaged about once a week, but always on her terms. So typically late in the evening and only on the weekend.

We have been married for 6 years, been together for 10 and we have 2 boys.

For the most part, we are a great couple. We don't have any big problems except for your typical arguments that all people have. Typically when we got into a fight it was about sex. She told me its normal and when the kids get older we would have sex like we used to.

I wasn't buying into that, and the lack of sex started to destroy our marriage.

So we went to marriage counseling and it all came out. She wasn't having sex because she resented me for not being helpful, and because I wasn't getting enough sex I resented her so I wouldn't help. We were stuck.

We both don't remember how this all started, but it happened sometime after our second child.

To fix the problem, my Wife had to just to have more sex. Instead of once a week, it should be more like 3 to 4 times a week. And I had to step up and be more helpful around the house.

She admitted about her excuses, and that they were complete bull crap. When she said she was tired, she really wasn't. She just did that to reject me. And after a while it just became a routine for her. She had to break that and just have sex anyways even if that voice inside said no.

And like magic when we both worked at, all the problems were solved and we are now very happy.

I still do get rejected from time to time, but now its because she is actually too tired for it.

Like last night, we went out for a date night and had a great time. And we didn't do it because we got home late and were tired. But its ok because we already had sex several times this week.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Your story all plays into the Love Languages, you were missing hers (Acts of Service) and she was missing Yours (Physical Touch). Now that you & she are AWARE of how each other "feels' Loved & what they need for happiness, you have a new path to follow. 

I wonder , was the book brought up in counseling at all ? 

I did a thread on this a while back, about the different Love Languages -here : http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-languages-how-does-affect-your-marraige.html


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

Nope that book wasn't brought up..


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I guess its kind of the like chicken and egg scenerio. Which came first the chicken or the egg...which came first the lack of sex or something else that caused the lack of sex.

I would say most of the time people don;t just stop having sex because they don't feel like or want to, there is usually a reason. The one who isn't get any usually only see part of the picture, "wha wah I'm not getting any sex I don't care why, wah wah I'm not getting sex." They rarely see they are part of the problem. 

Anyway bottom line its good when something can be fixed by two people coming together and addressed the issues at hand.


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

We don't remember what came first.. its something that happened slowly over time..


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Tool 

I was suprised to read this post from you, on many of your other post you seem to be very angry with your wife. This post puzzeled me because your other post were are so very hostile towards women. At a time when you should be happy and celerbrating, you seem instead to be thightly coiled and ready to strik out. Sounds like you are unsure if this is really a victory for you both. You mentioned on another thread that you could "crush her if you wanted" referring to your wife. 

Does not sound like you are out of the woods yet. Seems you have a tenuous hold on this change and feel powerless in this struggle. Of course you know that you cannot control your wife but you can control yourself. If you feel that "getting" sex from her is in exchange for doing what any adult man should do when he shares a home and children, I think you may have missed the point. Your insecurity may be due the fact that you view sex as something you are getting in exchange for doing what you should be doing anyway. Problems may arise as you have overvalue what you are giving to the relationship and undervalue what she gives. 

. Some of the things you have written seems to indicate a sense of fear and a desire to control so you can get the upper hand. . You are not hiding the depth of your anger from your wife she knows it seems right below the surface with you and is probably difficult to control. . 

If you shared all of the things you have written on the forum with your wife, would she be suprissed about what you really feel. Find a way to talk with her about your anger and try to resolve them, you can't cover lingering anger and resentment up for long. You can't view getting sex out of your wife as a power struggle. If you love each other than you be sharing pleasure both should get as needs met. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

So did things change once your wife started giving you sex more, or when you helped her out more? It seems I read before where you mentioned it changed when she started having sex with you more, which sounded as if she was the only one with the problem, and once she did that things were fine. It could be they are not as fine as you think.


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

Catherine602 - You are pretty good.

Yes we do still have a control issue, my Wife is a very power hungry person. And working with the counselor over the past few months I have had to learn how to take the power back to gain some kind of equality in the relationship. So my hostile towards women stems from that. I have to hold my ground and not let my Wife walk over me like iv done in the past.

I really do not want the upper hand, just level ground.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Just read a news article yesterday, 

The birthday gift this women gave to her husband was that he could have sex with her everyday. He is forty years old. 

She fulfilled her promise, they had sex almost everyday, and now they have a much stronger and loving marriage.

Sex and physical touch can really bring a couple together. 

But men have to pay attention to their wives' emotional needs and physical needs at home! 

Life can't always be yours, only if you give, then you receive!


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

People have to do whatever works for them. Its been my experience, that the more emotionally connected you are to them the better chances you have of receiving the physical side of it.


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

And the more physical attention you give, the better the chances of receiving the emotional side of it..


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree about the paying attention to the emotional side. I think to it just depends on the kind of person you're with. The more a man would try to be physical with me, and ignore the other aspects of the relationship as a whole, chances are he wont be getting my physical side. Yes, I do believe to there are some people in the world though who providing a physical side is all they can do. If they can't provide some emotional love and support, and if physical is all they know or care about, they need to be with someone who can provide the same for them.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Tool said:


> Catherine602 - You are pretty good.
> 
> Yes we do still have a control issue, my Wife is a very power hungry person. And working with the counselor over the past few months I have had to learn how to take the power back to gain some kind of equality in the relationship. So my hostile towards women stems from that. I have to hold my ground and not let my Wife walk over me like iv done in the past.
> 
> I really do not want the upper hand, just level ground.


Thanks for responding Tool. You are funny, I don't think any of the post that I have read from you are more than 5 sentences. I am happy that you are no longer allowing your wife to run over you More details might help others in you situation. I still have a nagging worry that you need a lot more conscious work on the relationship so that you sustain and increase happiness in your marriage. There are a few really good posters with excellent "man up" advice that may be useful. 

I hope you take my response in the sprit in which it is given, a desire to help. Relax and don't be disappointed or surprised if you wife challenges you. In fact you should expect it so reading the post about what to expect and how to handle.all relationship are dynamic with much jostling around. Good luck to the man of few words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tool,
Your post below is a good start. Catherine is consistently one of the most skilled posters here. Let me try to help you - as a male who is married to a powerful (she is not power hungry just powerful) woman. Lets start with this: "I could crush her if I wanted" is not a phrase used by someone looking for equality. 

Very different to say "I will not allow anyone else - even my W to crush ME". That is a statement of having boundaries and being assertive. A spouse who hears their partner say:
"I will not let you crush me" - hears "I am strong and love myself enough not to tolerate abuse"

A spouse who hears "I could crush you" is really hearing: "I don't love you that much - if need be I could end our marriage without feeling that bad". 



Tool said:


> Catherine602 - You are pretty good.
> 
> Yes we do still have a control issue, my Wife is a very power hungry person. And working with the counselor over the past few months I have had to learn how to take the power back to gain some kind of equality in the relationship. So my hostile towards women stems from that. I have to hold my ground and not let my Wife walk over me like iv done in the past.
> 
> I really do not want the upper hand, just level ground.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Tool,
> Your post below is a good start. Catherine is consistently one of the most skilled posters here. Let me try to help you - as a male who is married to a powerful (she is not power hungry just powerful) woman. Lets start with this: "I could crush her if I wanted" is not a phrase used by someone looking for equality.
> 
> Very different to say "I will not allow anyone else - even my W to crush ME". That is a statement of having boundaries and being assertive. A spouse who hears their partner say:
> ...


Thanks MEM I appreciate your compliment. Glad you are here to give your solid and well thought out advice. 

It is interesting you describe your wife as powerful, my husband says that I am a constant daily handful. Strong women need men who are able to stand up to them. If Imy husband was the type to let me get the upper hand, I know we would not have married. 

Tool if your wife is strong willed as am I, she may really not want to control you. She is showing you how you need to take over so she has confidence in you. I would not feel emotionally safe with a man that I could out-think and who allowed me to get away with my usual s**t. I would loose sexual attraction. Men sometimes think that strong women want the upper hand but most do not. They are looking for a man with the confidence to take over. 

He does not have to be smarter, good looking, wealthy, but if he has attitude he has the secret to an interesting life with a woman who will always surprise him. My husband says I am about 3 people in one body and I change over time. How is that for a little variety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Tool
> 
> I was suprised to read this post from you, on many of your other post you seem to be very angry with your wife. This post puzzeled me because your other post were are so very hostile towards women. At a time when you should be happy and celerbrating, you seem instead to be thightly coiled and ready to strik out. Sounds like you are unsure if this is really a victory for you both. You mentioned on another thread that you could "crush her if you wanted" referring to your wife.
> 
> ...



Catherine, I have a lot of respect for you and your perspective on this forum. Perhaps I can shed some light on this from a male perspective.

I love my wife dearly, and we'll be celebrating 20 years together this summer. 3 kids, healthy, happy, yadda yadda yadda . . . but it wasn't always so rosy. And sex was the root.

We went through about six years of difficult times, and it usually (95%) centered around the subject of Sex, Frequency And Variety Of. Oh, she liked sex. I was really good at it. But she she liked it on her terms, and was even unconsciously using it as a tool of control for the relationship. She didn't mean to, but after the first couple of years of infatuated coupling and then a few of relaxed security, she just couldn't seem to help it. As an incentive or a punishment, she found she felt more in control when she was free to reject me (again, SHE didn't see it as rejection), oblivious to the amount of despair I was enduring.

And it _was_ despair. I don't think women can really realize just how deeply a man's sex life can affect him. But it's like being a junkie with only one authorized dealer, and they're closed except on alternate Saturdays, and then only if they feel like showing up. And you've _been good_. And even if they do show up and you have been good, they can decide almost arbitrarily that they're not going to give you your fix. That produces stress. Wondering where your next "fix" is coming from produces anxiety and stress. And after a couple of repeats of this, your friendly relationship with your dealer is going to take a backseat to the overwhelming potency of your addiction. 

Now, some may object to using that unromantic analogy, but I can guarantee that it's one that a lot of fellas out there can relate to. And even a little bit of this (6 years out of 20) on top of all the sexual embarrassments, indignities, and humiliations we've suffered at women's hands _before_ we even met our wives is enough to create a powerful store of resentment towards all "dealers" to a certain extent. Just when you thought you finally found one you could work with and give your loyalty to, when she decides to yank your chain too much that resentment and anger comes roaring out. Sometimes in unpredictable and unproductive ways.

So if you think that guys like Tool and I see sex as a struggle for control, you're right: we've been at its mercy most of our lives, subjected to the whims of feminine fate, and had our feelings on the matter routinely and consistently demeaned and belittled as inconsequential. If you sense a certain amount of anger and resentment towards women (mislabeled "misogyny") born of our sexual frustration, please understand that it's not only natural and expected, in our situation, but it should be respected. And this is what causes such anger and resentment: 

Not only do we take our rejections from our wives at the most personal level possible, but the pain from that rejection gets aggravated tenfold when we strive to make them heard only to have them dismissed out of hand as unimportant or secondary. And that kind of rage and pain takes years to dissipate, if ever. We might be able to conceal it, channel it, even use it to good effect, but we don't ever lose it. In ideal circumstances it merely informs us about how bad things can get. In less than ideal circumstances it infuses our being, and colors every word we speak and every decision we make.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Thanks MEM I appreciate your compliment. Glad you are here to give your solid and well thought out advice.
> 
> It is interesting you describe your wife as powerful, my husband says that I am a constant daily handful. Strong women need men who are able to stand up to them. If Imy husband was the type to let me get the upper hand, I know we would not have married.
> 
> ...


I seem to be doing a lot of seemingly 'naive' posting at the moment (my word, no-one elses) - but could someone please explain to a strong-willed, stubborn A-AB personality type woman whose A personality type OH calls her all the predictable labels under the sun why I would actually WANT him to 'take over' either me or situations? His intellect and strength are what have got him both where he is and to who he is, which I admire and love; I don't want, though, to choose a leader in life, I want an equal partner
I've always struggled with the 'man=boss' scenario and still struggle despite seeing a lot of sense in pieces like The Surrendered Wife(!) and if you're both strong, why should the woman actually have chosen a strong man in the hopes he'll be the controller? I just don't get it what happened to discussion, compromise, debate, negotiation etc?



IanIronwood said:


> Catherine, I have a lot of respect for you and your perspective on this forum. Perhaps I can shed some light on this from a male perspective.
> 
> I love my wife dearly, and we'll be celebrating 20 years together this summer. 3 kids, healthy, happy, yadda yadda yadda . . . but it wasn't always so rosy. And sex was the root.
> 
> ...


Good post, explains a male perspective well; one query, though - 'been good' in YOUR judgement or hers? (talking generally of course) - if there are issues in the relationship the man could feel he's dealing with them, or being particularly good or nice but if he's actually not addressing whatever she's found hurtful, painful, irritating, whatever, then obviously 'good' can be seen to be a subjective term and one that makes not a jot of difference to how he's likely to be viewed in terms of sexual attraction


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

Being good to my Wife is being there for her emotionally and doing things before she nags at me.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Tool said:


> Being good to my Wife is being there for her emotionally and doing things before she nags at me.


:smthumbup: :iagree:


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

equal partner mentioned above, i like that, its what i have been conditioned to view my wife as over the past 50 years. it just gets confusing when the equality is used selectively


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

madimoff said:


> Good post, explains a male perspective well; one query, though - 'been good' in YOUR judgement or hers? (talking generally of course) - if there are issues in the relationship the man could feel he's dealing with them, or being particularly good or nice but if he's actually not addressing whatever she's found hurtful, painful, irritating, whatever, then obviously 'good' can be seen to be a subjective term and one that makes not a jot of difference to how he's likely to be viewed in terms of sexual attraction


Well, that's the issue then, isn't it? The problem (from a male perspective) is that the rules of "being good" are subject to change without notice. One week a woman's "good" is going to be limited to practical things . . . and while he's off busting his butt to handle the sh!t-list, she metamorphizes the rules into being more about emotional security than physical security, so when he gets back -- having "been good", according to what he's been told, suddenly the problem is that he isn't romantic enough, and she resets the sh!t-list. That makes him frustrated and resentful and that much less likely to be willing to accommodate, because he feels the rules got changed when he wasn't looking. 

A wise couple with good communication skills, self-awareness and a secure sense of their own worth quickly find out good communication and coping mechanisms to reach a consensus of what "being good" means, on both sides of the table, by establishing good sex rituals. Unfortunately, most couples are not self-aware enough, and certainly not aware of their partner's psychology enough, to figure that out before the resentment issues set in.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> equal partner mentioned above, i like that, its what i have been conditioned to view my wife as over the past 50 years. it just gets confusing when the equality is used selectively


"All Animals Are Equal. Some Animals Are More Equal Than Others."

George Orwell, _Animal Farm_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Ian the feelings you describe are familiar to me. For about 2 yrs, I avoided sex with my husband because of problems in the preceding 4 yrs. It took 4 yrs of problems for me to lose my desire for him. I needed help with the increased work load and he helped by giving me advice. My exhaustion was overwhelming and finally decided to preserve energy and my mind. I was ready to walk. I did not realize the devestastating effect of much less sex than he desired. I read book s joined forums including this in an attemp to keep my family together. When I read statements from men that you so well expressed in yourpost, I had no idea and most woman have no idea of the connection between a man's core and emotions and sex. My husband confirmed how devastated he felt and that understanding started our road to recovery. 

Of course you are most likely to have sympathy for my husband than me. From his end, he saw it as sudden and unfair withdrawal of love and affection, but this was not the case. The four yrs that I tried to tell him what I was going through was to me over and above what I should have endured. I have noticed that men have a tendency to discount the things that women find concerning because they don't think it is a big deal. A hole in the kitchen wall my not be a big deal to a man so he puts off repairs but to his wife's aesthetic sense it may be very important. This may happen repeatedly over time little things - her concerns are no big deal no reason to get worked up about it. She trys to get him to address her concerns and he dismisses them and thinks she is nagging or controlling. 

A man need for sex is not more important than a woman's need for affection, communication and attention from her husband. Our culture is rife with advice to men about how to give as little as possible to get what they want out of a woman. I am certain you are familiar with - feed me, eefff me and shut up, said as a joke but there is some eliment of truth. If a guy thinks that his manhood depends on how little he gives relative to how much he gets, he may feel manipulated by a woman who expects mutually satisfying relationship. 

The post by men in sex- starved marriage or by men who feel they are being manipulated sound awful but we don't know the wife's side of the story. You may think that there is never a reason to stop having sex with ones mate, I think there should never be a trivial reason not to have sex, but if their is persistent disrespect, criticism, selfish sex, demands or coercion for sex act that offer no pleasure for the woman, dismissal of womans concerns then these are turn offs. A sincere attempt to address and solve problems and a willingness to compromise is vital, but if there are no changes then what. I found it impossible to get any pleasure from having sex with my husband when he ignored my concerns I continued for many years. He was happy, and sexually satisfied but I was not.

I stopped because I was sacrificing too much to keep him happy and deny myself. My advice to any woman in an unhappy marriage who has tried to solve problems if the sex pleases him but not her then stop. But let him know how the persistent problems have affected your sexual desire for him and your ability to enjoy sex as much as he does. To say this is manipulation is to put having sex with a man in some protected category - no matter how unhappy you are don't stop so he does not feel manipulated. Ridiculous, that would be akin to saying that a womans holes belong to him because he needs them so badly to feel love. It's more complex than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine, I do appreciate your perspective, and I'm glad you finally made that realization. Tell me, how different do you think your marriage would have been if you'd known about that sex/emotion connection at the outset?




Catherine602 said:


> I have noticed that men have a tendency to discount the things that women find concerning because they don't think it is a big deal. A hole in the kitchen wall my not be a big deal to a man so he puts off repairs but to his wife's aesthetic sense it may be very important. This may happen repeatedly over time little things - her concerns are no big deal no reason to get worked up about it. She trys to get him to address her concerns and he dismisses them and thinks she is nagging or controlling.


Or, conversely, he has a different set of values and aesthetics, so that when the roof is leaking fixing a hole in the kitchen wall seems like a trivial priority. And I would also argue that women dismiss men's concerns as "no big deal" all too often in the average marriage. For example, a football fan might be devastated over the loss of a big game, but his wife thinks it's just a silly sports thing, nothing to get upset over. Her dismissal feels like scorn, rejection, and an unwillingness to take his feelings seriously. But since he's a big strong man he just has another beer and tries to bury those feelings.

I get what you're saying, and totally agree that discovering and respecting your mate's values and priorities, finding out what things are important to them and taking those into account, are one of the cornerstones of a good marriage. Now on to the sex . . . 



Catherine602 said:


> A man need for sex is not more important than a woman's need for affection, communication and attention from her husband.


Agreed. But is it AT LEAST AS important as her needs for affection and attention? Because most women in a problem marriage consider it inconsequential, or at best another strong bone of contention and little else. The natural tendency for a man to withdraw emotionally in response to a sexual drought is often brought up in counseling as a serious issue (and it is), but the sexual drought in the first place is rarely seen by the wife as a problem. The balance between the two is vital in a healthy relationship, but both sides have to be understood as having value. 



Catherine602 said:


> Our culture is rife with advice to men about how to give as little as possible to get what they want out of a woman.


Agreed. The converse is also true. See: _Cosmopolitan_. 



Catherine602 said:


> I am certain you are familiar with - feed me, eefff me and shut up, said as a joke but there is some eliment of truth. If a guy thinks that his manhood depends on how little he gives relative to how much he gets, he may feel manipulated by a woman who expects mutually satisfying relationship.


Actually, I'd say that that's more of a response to the idea of the predatory female who seeks a workhorse male as a husband without having to have sex all that often to do it. The fact of the matter is that most men don't worry about that sort of thing if they feel their needs in the relationship are being met. And while I freely admit that the atavistic, neandertal male is still alive and well out there, he's rapidly heading for extinction as the society and economy overtake him. 



Catherine602 said:


> The post by men in sex- starved marriage or by men who feel they are being manipulated sound awful but we don't know the wife's side of the story.


If my experience was limited to this board, I might be inclined to agree, but I've seen a multitude of couples in counseling sessions where I heard both sides. Depressing . . . 



Catherine602 said:


> You may think that there is never a reason to stop having sex with ones mate, I think there should never be a trivial reason not to have sex, but if their is persistent disrespect, criticism, selfish sex, demands or coercion for sex act that offer no pleasure for the woman, dismissal of womans concerns then these are turn offs. A sincere attempt to address and solve problems and a willingness to compromise is vital, but if there are no changes then what. I found it impossible to get any pleasure from having sex with my husband when he ignored my concerns I continued for many years. He was happy, and sexually satisfied but I was not.
> 
> I stopped because I was sacrificing too much to keep him happy and deny myself. My advice to any woman in an unhappy marriage who has tried to solve problems if the sex pleases him but not her then stop. But let him know how the persistent problems have affected your sexual desire for him and your ability to enjoy sex as much as he does. To say this is manipulation is to put having sex with a man in some protected category - no matter how unhappy you are don't stop so he does not feel manipulated. Ridiculous, that would be akin to saying that a womans holes belong to him because he needs them so badly to feel love. It's more complex than that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Of course, if the wife chooses to she may stop all sexual contact with her husband for any reason whatsoever. She might find inner peace, or stop something that she found unpleasant or abusive, or just decided that she was bored and couldn't be bothered -- any of those could be valid reasons for stopping having sex in a relationship. But that cessation may have consequences she is not going to be happy with. At the very least she's going to get confusion, frustration, and resentment from her spouse over it unless there were some severely extenuating circumstances. If she's willing to accept those consequences, then fine -- but ceasing sex in a relationship overall and then expressing shock and surprise over a man's reaction to that withdrawal is unreasonable. 

Either sex is in a protected category, or it isn't. If it is, then treat it as such both in and out of marriage (as we do). If it isn't, then the entire gamut of sex is out in the open: porn, prostitution, infidelity, all of it. You can't have it be protected for one gender and not the other.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> (SNIP) -- but ceasing sex in a relationship overall and then expressing shock and surprise over a man's reaction to that withdrawal is unreasonable. (SNIP).



Ok up to and including that neither gender should expect or deserve more care etc than the other, I was kind of understanding your post
Then came the comment above - I think you missed a bit: 

'ceasing sex in a relationship overall without a reason you can explain and justify from your perspective to your partner - whether then accepted or not - and then--------' 

(or am I being picky!)


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

So, could I say that if you combine Ian and Catherine's posts together, you'd have the perfect human psychology book? You know, with examples of how both sexes think?

Seriously, you two could stop sweating the small stuff. You two are debating which came first, the chicken or egg, not much else. It's so clear both of you agree but are going in a vicious circle of who starts problems XD

Well, or debate till death. Place your bets here!.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

madimoff said:


> Ok up to and including that neither gender should expect or deserve more care etc than the other, I was kind of understanding your post
> Then came the comment above - I think you missed a bit:
> 
> 'ceasing sex in a relationship overall without a reason you can explain and justify from your perspective to your partner - whether then accepted or not - and then--------'
> ...


I'll allow it. If my wife is in a coma, I understand it might take her a while to be aroused, and I'd change my expectations accordingly. I was speaking in non-medical generalities. 

If she "just didn't feel like it anymore", then yes, my behavior towards her is likely to change, and that shouldn't be unexpected.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Draguna said:


> So, could I say that if you combine Ian and Catherine's posts together, you'd have the perfect human psychology book? You know, with examples of how both sexes think?
> 
> Seriously, you two could stop sweating the small stuff. You two are debating which came first, the chicken or egg, not much else. It's so clear both of you agree but are going in a vicious circle of who starts problems XD
> 
> Well, or debate till death. Place your bets here!.


You're right, I fold. No one wins really. No amount of debating the nature of male - female relationships and what each needs to understand about the other changes a thing. We become more polarized. It is what it is. We make our own reality, we can be happy with the things that unite men and woman or chronically angry and disgruntled at what one gender does to the other. In the final analysis, we can only change ourselves. Peace Out.

"Man is capable of changing the world for the better if possible, and of changing himself for the better if necessary."
from Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Nice one. I'd just say that men and women should just understand the other gender's sexuality for what it is: a retarded family member. Annoying, uncomprehensible, but you accept him and love him all the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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