# More alpha means less chance your wife will cheat



## Adex

I don't see it happening too much. In almost all these cheating wife threads on this forum, the guys posting about it mostly portray the relationship as them being too nice and her not appreciating it. In effect, their behavior has been too beta.

When the man takes charge and the lead in the relationship, she respects that and will think twice about cheating on her husband. I'm not saying that being alpha will always mean your wife will not cheat, but I'm saying that there is a much better chance she won't cheat on you. I'm also using the term alpha in its positive respects and am not referring to being abusive, arrogant, or violent towards her.

The irony is that the more you're the most caring or nicest husband to her, the higher the chance of her cheating.


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## Zig

When a man becomes over the top in the ways by which he tries to please his wife, she interprets this to mean that he would have trouble replacing her if she left. He is therefore not a high value male.

When a man cools things down, it is effectively saying to his wife that she is not that special and that he could easily replace her with any of a number of other women. This makes him a high value male and she becomes less likely to cheat.


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## LearninAsWeGo

Beta/romantic love for women DOES have its place. It does. When to use that depends on the woman, her current stress level, and her current hormonal status (main factor), but beta is useful without a doubt.

All alpha all the time = total controlling abusive husband, whom she may eventually kill since she's afraid to leave. Less dramatic but still hurtful is that a total alpha's wife might cheat to spite him since she feels powerless in the marriage. Neither of those is a fairly tale ending, fellas.

...Picking the right partner is also HUGE. Look, it's really this simple:
-her type (personality, decision style, life exp)... take Myers Briggs together, preferrably pre-marital but it's never too late
-her attraction level to her man
-her social system and network and job
-her values

To prevent affairs, you want:
-the Myers Briggs personality type of private, deeply devoted, artistic (*this is a rare type)
-to be the best partner you can be: fit, successful, well dressed, alpha tactics usually, beta when appropriate (PMS, kids, etc)
-her working mostly with women and socializing with quality women (marriage minded people)... male "friends" = BIG red flag
-Religion or just good values and HEALTHY ways to releive stress... and unhealthy vices used when stressed (aka immature)

JMO.

Things you do NOT want and are NOT conducive to her not playing around:
-the Myers Briggs hyper + social type (this is common in guys, but also women) aka type A personality types
-being a crappy partner: fat slob, loser job, poorly dressed, bad at listening and never romantic, etc (read "Married Man Sex Primer")
-her working mostly with men, making great $, workaholic (ties into type A personality)
-her having toxic girlfriends with poor values
-Athiesm, hedonism, narcissism type traits

Conversely, the opposites are true if you want to be to be a faithful guy. "Surround yourself with good people," and if you're like me, then God is one of those people. Say what you might about religion, but accountability in the community, prayer for relaxation, and meeting successful family minded people goes a long way. JMO


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## Adex

Zig said:


> When a man becomes over the top in the ways by which he tries to please his wife, she interprets this to mean that he would have trouble replacing her if she left. He is therefore not a high value male.
> 
> When a man cools things down, it is effectively saying to his wife that she is not that special and that he could easily replace her with any of a number of other women. This makes him a high value male and she becomes less likely to cheat.


Interesting. I never thought of it like that.


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## hookares

I was married almost 21 years. During that time, I was the one who was approached to get things right any time they were f**ked up regardless of why or who caused it. I spent 60 to 70 percent of my time working to provide for what I thought was my family.
I was always available to help the rest of her family anytime the need existed.
My biggest fault was assuming I was being treated the same way my ex wife was being treated anytime we were apart.
I fail to see how I could ever be an alpha male and I'm too old to make the change, now.


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## OhGeesh

So stupid Alpha this Beta that!! Add some Alpha wait need more Beta.........silly games!!


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## c2500

LearninAsWeGo said:


> Beta/romantic love for women DOES have its place. It does. When to use that depends on the woman, her current stress level, and her current hormonal status (main factor), but beta is useful without a doubt.
> 
> All alpha all the time = total controlling abusive husband, whom she may eventually kill since she's afraid to leave. Less dramatic but still hurtful is that a total alpha's wife might cheat to spite him since she feels powerless in the marriage. Neither of those is a fairly tale ending, fellas.
> 
> ...Picking the right partner is also HUGE. Look, it's really this simple:
> -her type (personality, decision style, life exp)... take Myers Briggs together, preferrably pre-marital but it's never too late
> -her attraction level to her man
> -her social system and network and job
> -her values
> 
> To prevent affairs, you want:
> -the Myers Briggs personality type of private, deeply devoted, artistic (*this is a rare type)
> -to be the best partner you can be: fit, successful, well dressed, alpha tactics usually, beta when appropriate (PMS, kids, etc)
> -her working mostly with women and socializing with quality women (marriage minded people)... male "friends" = BIG red flag
> -Religion or just good values and HEALTHY ways to releive stress... and unhealthy vices used when stressed (aka immature)
> 
> JMO.
> 
> Things you do NOT want and are NOT conducive to her not playing around:
> -the Myers Briggs hyper + social type (this is common in guys, but also women) aka type A personality types
> -being a crappy partner: fat slob, loser job, poorly dressed, bad at listening and never romantic, etc (read "Married Man Sex Primer")
> -her working mostly with men, making great $, workaholic (ties into type A personality)
> -her having toxic girlfriends with poor values
> -Athiesm, hedonism, narcissism type traits
> 
> Conversely, the opposites are true if you want to be to be a faithful guy. "Surround yourself with good people," and if you're like me, then God is one of those people. Say what you might about religion, but accountability in the community, prayer for relaxation, and meeting successful family minded people goes a long way. JMO


I disagree on the religion. My X2B was at church practically every Sunday. In fact the all time classic was when she "hypothetically" told the OM that she could not meet him Sunday morning because she was going to church.

I feel alot of the abuse I endured was because of religion and her excessive guilt. 

We reconciled, but then within six months was back to her old games...and yes...workaholic, good money, and around alot of men.

In fact, I would say had started another affair long before we legally split.

2 cents worth...

c2500


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## Lyris

So atheists are lumped in with narcissists and hedonists? Well, I think I'll add "religious bigots" to that list.


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## arbitrator

I can't help but feel that there is perhaps some creedence into "Alpha Males" attracting "Beta Females" and vice versa. If you have two "Alphas" who are strong-natured that conversely attract, commit, and marry, isn't it logical that over the course of time that one of them might stray in search of a "Beta" of the opposite sex, as that might seem more of an optimum fit for them?

Given that premise, I really don't believe that being an "Alpha" or a "Beta" either adds to or detracts from the "cheating equation."

Given the right conditions and timing, cheating can and certainly does happen!


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## Malcolm38

Lyris said:


> So atheists are lumped in with narcissists and hedonists? Well, I think I'll add "religious bigots" to that list.


:iagree:

Yes! As an atheist, I always am having sex parties and tempting people with cocaine. I thought all of us Atheists did this???


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## Lyris

It's how we recruit people.


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## Adex

The ideal would be for the man to be the alpha and the woman be the beta. No relationship is completely equal because one person always assumes the more leadership role. The goal should be that the man achieves that role.

You're the beta and she's the alpha if this applies to you:
-She goes out with her friends at night to bars and clubs while you stay at home and watch the kids.
-You cook and clean the house while she works and makes the money.
-You take care of the kids mostly
-She decides where to go and what to eat together.
-She makes the decisions in your lives.
-She controls you, has all your passwords, tells you what you can and cannot do.
-You ask permission to go out with your friends.

Having said that, you can see a woman with the above power could abuse that power and cheat. It's a role reversal.

Likewise, you've heard of the alpha male that goes and does what the hell he wants and cheats, etc while the good wife stays at home. Of course as a true man with values, you should never abuse that power and cheat. But to be in that position is the ideal for a man.


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## Zig

Adex said:


> Interesting. I never thought of it like that.


It's kind of like a job: you have to be nice to your boss while he can treat you like crap because you need him a whole lot more than he needs you.


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## WyshIknew

Lyris said:


> So atheists are lumped in with narcissists and hedonists? Well, I think I'll add "religious bigots" to that list.


Especially considering that a survey showed that the religious are more likely to 'cheat' (I hate that word 'cheat' in this context. It makes it sound analagous to 'took an extra turn at monopoly')

Statistics new show MORE Christian couples get divorced than atheists and other religions


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## juicecondensation

Women are not very likely to cheat so I don't think it matters if you are alpha or beta. The chances that she would cheat are very small.


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## arbitrator

juicecondensation said:


> *Women are not very likely to cheat so I don't think it matters if you are alpha or beta*. *The chances that she would cheat are very small*.


Perhaps in the days of yesteryear, but with the advent of the social networking capability of the internet(i.e. Facebook, et. al.), women taking on ever-greater responsibilities in the workplace and in industry, cheating and infidelity on their part has greatly risen and has even mildly exceeded that of their male counterparts.

That is richly evidenced by the threads and the many stories that you'll certainly encounter here at TAM!


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## Cosmos

Zig said:


> When a man becomes over the top in the ways by which he tries to please his wife, she interprets this to mean that he would have trouble replacing her if she left. He is therefore not a high value male.
> 
> When a man cools things down, it is effectively saying to his wife that she is not that special and that he could easily replace her with any of a number of other women. This makes him a high value male and she becomes less likely to cheat.


Interesting concept... If my partner were to give me the impression that I'm not that special and that he could easily replace me with any of a number of women, I think that's when I might be likely to start looking around for someone who places a higher value on ME...


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## WyshIknew

Adex said:


> I don't see it happening too much. In almost all these cheating wife threads on this forum, the guys posting about it mostly portray the relationship as them being too nice and her not appreciating it. In effect, their behavior has been too beta.
> 
> When the man takes charge and the lead in the relationship, she respects that and will think twice about cheating on her husband. I'm not saying that being alpha will always mean your wife will not cheat, but I'm saying that there is a much better chance she won't cheat on you. I'm also using the term alpha in its positive respects and am not referring to being abusive, arrogant, or violent towards her.
> 
> The irony is that the more you're the most caring or nicest husband to her, the higher the chance of her cheating.




And your evidence is?

Because if you take your strictest definition of 'alpha' then a truly alpha man will not be posting on this forum (you might wanna think about that.)

A truly alpha man would just dump his cheater and move on to one of the other hotties that are apparently just waiting for their chance at Mr alpha.


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## RandomDude

juicecondensation said:


> Women are not very likely to cheat so I don't think it matters if you are alpha or beta. The chances that she would cheat are very small.


Say what? Nowadays women are cheating just as much as men.


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## yellowledbet

Adex said:


> I don't see it happening too much. In almost all these cheating wife threads on this forum, the guys posting about it mostly portray the relationship as them being too nice and her not appreciating it. In effect, their behavior has been too beta.
> 
> When the man takes charge and the lead in the relationship, she respects that and will think twice about cheating on her husband. I'm not saying that being alpha will always mean your wife will not cheat, but I'm saying that there is a much better chance she won't cheat on you. I'm also using the term alpha in its positive respects and am not referring to being abusive, arrogant, or violent towards her.
> 
> *The irony is that the more you're the most caring or nicest husband to her, the higher the chance of her cheating.*


:scratchhead: Correlation does not imply causation. Especially with some ad hoc observation method by a biased observer.


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## TiggyBlue

Adex said:


> The ideal would be for the man to be the alpha and the woman be the beta. No relationship is completely equal because one person always assumes the more leadership role. The goal should be that the man achieves that role.
> 
> You're the beta and she's the alpha if this applies to you:
> -She goes out with her friends at night to bars and clubs while you stay at home and watch the kids.
> -You cook and clean the house while she works and makes the money.
> -You take care of the kids mostly
> -She decides where to go and what to eat together.
> -She makes the decisions in your lives.
> -She controls you, has all your passwords, tells you what you can and cannot do.
> -You ask permission to go out with your friends.
> 
> Having said that, you can see a woman with the above power could abuse that power and cheat. It's a role reversal.
> 
> Likewise, you've heard of the alpha male that goes and does what the hell he wants and cheats, etc while the good wife stays at home. Of course as a true man with values, you should never abuse that power and cheat. But to be in that position is the ideal for a man.


If a man need's to have all that to feel 'alpha' then is he really a 'alpha'?
If a man/woman decides to live like that (ask permission to go out, stay home looking after kids ect) that's there decision it doesn't automatically make their partner a 'alpha'.


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## yellowledbet

abitlost said:


> If a man need's to have all that to feel 'alpha' then is he really a 'alpha'?
> If a man/woman decides to live like that (ask permission to go out, stay home looking after kids ect) that's there decision it doesn't automatically make their partner a 'alpha'.


It is like playing make believe 'alpha'. It is shallow and transparent. If you believe that cooking dinner, caring for your kids, or 'allowing' your wife to make decisions lowers your 'rank' as a man then I fully believe that you are utterly delusional. Try replacing control and power with love and respect. If you are with a woman that needs to be controlled or dominated in order to not cheat then you picked the wrong one. 

What if instead of trying to act alpha you worked everyday to enrich your life? What if the core of your beliefs was that you wanted to grow your knowledge, experience life, take care of your body, grow spiritually, love and cherish your wife, protect and provide for your family, nurture your children, and provide a strong example for your children? What if you worked at those beliefs relentlessly everyday? Do you think the by product would be that you would give a sh*t less about acting alpha because you would already have the confidence that you are the best person that you can be?


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## ScarletBegonias

Zig said:


> When a man becomes over the top in the ways by which he tries to please his wife, she interprets this to mean that he would have trouble replacing her if she left. He is therefore not a high value male.When I think of a woman who can't appreciate,love and honor a man who does his best to please her and shows her every day how special she is,I think of a mentally unstable,emotionally scarred woman.
> 
> When a man cools things down, it is effectively saying to his wife that she is not that special and that he could easily replace her with any of a number of other women. This makes him a high value male and she becomes less likely to cheat.I'd drop a man like a hot potato if he didn't treat me as though I'm truly special to him.My SO gets shown he is special to me,I expect the same in return.Best way to keep your relationship free from affairs is to put in what you hope to receive...if you're with the right person,they'll always rise to the occasion and show you that your efforts are not wasted.


Any woman I've ever spoken to about cheating and why they did it always says the same "reasons" for doing it (I put that in quotes because there's really no good reason to cheat.):
-he stopped treating me the way he did before we got married
-he doesn't pay attention to me anymore
-he's cool and emotionally closed off toward me
-he tries to control me
-I'm not first for him anymore,every thing else comes before me
-I needed to feel needed again
-I needed to feel appreciated again


The list goes on.

I don't think there's a science to determining why some people cheat and some don't.I personally don't believe it has anything to do with alpha/beta stuff.


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## Cosmos

> Originally Posted by Adex View Post
> The ideal would be for the man to be the alpha and the woman be the beta. No relationship is completely equal because one person always assumes the more leadership role. The goal should be that the man achieves that role.
> 
> You're the beta and she's the alpha if this applies to you:
> -She goes out with her friends at night to bars and clubs while you stay at home and watch the kids.
> -You cook and clean the house while she works and makes the money.
> -You take care of the kids mostly
> -She decides where to go and what to eat together.
> -She makes the decisions in your lives.
> -She controls you, has all your passwords, tells you what you can and cannot do.
> -You ask permission to go out with your friends.
> 
> Having said that, you can see a woman with the above power could abuse that power and cheat. It's a role reversal.
> 
> Likewise, you've heard of the alpha male that goes and does what the hell he wants and cheats, etc while the good wife stays at home. Of course as a true man with values, you should never abuse that power and cheat. But to be in that position is the ideal for a man.


A role reversal? Are you saying, therefore, that it's actually preferable if:- 

An H goes out with his friends at night to bars and clubs while his W stay at home and watches the kids?

The W takes care of the kids mostly (bearing in mind that in most cases, these days, both H and W work)?

By default, the H decides where to go and what to eat together?

The H makes the decisions in both his and his W's lives?

The H controls his W, has all her passwords, tells her what she can and cannot do?

The W asks permission to go out with her friends?

Neither scenario sounds healthy to me. Just a breeding ground for resentment and marital disharmony.


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## Maricha75

juicecondensation said:


> Women are not very likely to cheat so I don't think it matters if you are alpha or beta. The chances that she would cheat are very small.


Have you actually gone to CWI and read there lately? :scratchhead: More women cheat than you seem to think... plus, there is even a site specifically FOR cheaters. Care to guess how many of the posters there are women? Blech. Cheating isn't "mostly" confined to men. Not sure where you are getting your info.


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## Maricha75

Adex said:


> The ideal would be for the man to be the alpha and the woman be the beta. No relationship is completely equal because one person always assumes the more leadership role. The goal should be that the man achieves that role.
> 
> You're the beta and she's the alpha if this applies to you:
> -She goes out with her friends at night to bars and clubs while you stay at home and watch the kids. Neither of us does this. And I don't care for the implication that it is somehow ok if the MAN does it, but not the woman.
> -You cook and clean the house while she works and makes the money. This is a dynamic that works for SOME couples and *gasp* by some miracle... NEITHER of them cheats! Wow, what a concept! A househusband who is not a cuckold!
> -You take care of the kids mostly Again, you need to look at WHY this dynamic is set up. WHY is he home and not she? It doesn't mean she is going to cheat on him. SOME women, even the "breadwinners" have morals.
> -She decides where to go and what to eat together. If he chooses to defer to her when it comes to restaurants, what is the problem? Generally, I would pick more family friendly restaurants when my husband was working because, *gasp* we took the kids out as well! Would I have preferred fine dining? Sure! But they aren't always best with small children. So yes, I chose the restaurants most of the time. And as for what to eat at home... if I'm cooking, I'm usually picking what we have. I will take suggestions, but ultimately, the decision is mine as long as I am the one doing the cooking.
> -She makes the decisions in your lives. Depends on the decisions and the circumstances behind the need for the woman to MAKE the decisions.
> -She controls you, has all your passwords, tells you what you can and cannot do. But it's ok for the husband to do that to the wife, right?  GMAFB
> -You ask permission to go out with your friends. My husband asks fore permission to go out with his friends. I ask for permission to go out with mine as well. It's called RESPECT. If he has something planned, he will say no to my request. Same if I have plans and he asks. If we are low on funds, then it's a definite no. Funny how people don't chafe at it until it cramps their style.
> 
> Having said that, you can see a woman with the above power could abuse that power and cheat. It's a role reversal.
> 
> Likewise, you've heard of the alpha male that goes and does what the hell he wants and cheats, etc while the good wife stays at home. Of course as a true man with values, you should never abuse that power and cheat. But to be in that position is the ideal for a man.


This whole alpha/beta crap is getting old.


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## Zig

Women want men who are attractive to other women. Have you ever heard of the saying "The easiest way to get a girlfriend is to already have one"? This is why it's often really difficult for a teenage boy/young man to get his first girlfriend but once he succeeds, the rest come much more easily.

I have guy friends who started getting phone calls and FB messages from women who had earlier said that they looked at them as a brother as soon as they found out he was engaged. Another woman had approved of him so now they wanted to poach him.

So much of what a woman finds attractive in a man is based on what other women think of him. Everyone has observed this behavior: a woman thinks some guy is really hot/cute in a quirky way, but her friends disapprove of him. There is no way that she'll go against the group when they don't like him.

As for the suggestions that people are tired of the whole alpha/beta thing: *when the betrayed men in the CWI forum start posting that they're 6' 4" tall alcoholic bikers who found their wives in bed with accountants who like talking about their feelings (instead of the other way around), then we can stop talking about alpha/beta.*


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## Cosmos

Zig said:


> So much of what a woman finds attractive in a man is based on what other women think of him. Everyone has observed this behavior: a woman thinks some guy is really hot/cute in a quirky way, but her friends disapprove of him. There is no way that she'll go against the group when they don't like him.


I couldn't give a rat's ass whether other women find my partner attractive or not. What counts is that I do.

The above might be true of impressionable young women, but certainly doesn't hold true for mature women.


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## nice777guy

juicecondensation said:


> Women are not very likely to cheat so I don't think it matters if you are alpha or beta. The chances that she would cheat are very small.


If women aren't likely to cheat, who are the cheating men sleeping with?


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## Faithful Wife

Zig said: "When a man cools things down, it is effectively saying to his wife that she is not that special and that he could easily replace her with any of a number of other women. This makes him a high value male and she becomes less likely to cheat."

I don't know your story or what your marital status is, but I am married to an alpha male (who has the appropriate amount of beta), and I'm sorry but it simply isn't like this.

You don't seem to realize that if an alpha male cools off, it is not to play a "game" on his woman. If he cools off, he is actually losing interest in her. She will actually be more likely to cheat (or at least to begin losing interest in him as well) if this happens. Why? Because a truly alpha male has married his worthy counter part, and she won't stick around for a dude who is losing interest in her.


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## T&T

IMO, it has nothing to do with this alpha beta stuff AND I still don't get it...

These reason's are far more realistic IMO. Boys, look after you ladies real needs and wants! 

Top 10: Reasons Women Cheat - AskMen

T


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## Cosmos

nice777guy said:


> If women aren't likely to cheat, who are the cheating men sleeping with?


Inflatable dolls dressed in nazi uniforms sporting crack pipes? :rofl:


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## nice777guy

Cosmos said:


> Inflatable dolls dressed in nazi uniforms sporting crack pipes? :rofl:


Better than "other cheating married guys!"


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## WyshIknew

Cosmos said:


> Inflatable dolls dressed in nazi uniforms sporting crack pipes? :rofl:


Hmmmm yea!

That would totally do it for me, hubba hubba.

If they are inflatable does that mean you have to give a blow job to a girlie doll?


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## Maricha75

Zig said:


> As for the suggestions that people are tired of the whole alpha/beta thing: *when the betrayed men in the CWI forum start posting that they're 6' 4" tall alcoholic bikers who found their wives in bed with accountants who like talking about their feelings (instead of the other way around), then we can stop talking about alpha/beta.*


Hmmm my husband is the "tough guy" type. He's one who always hid how he was feeling. Even now, he still tries to. And yet, my EA was with someone who was more interested in talking about feelings. My husband was an auto tech. EA worked in an office, NOT high powered job, either. No, I never slept with anyone other than my husband. Still was cheating. And still, I "traded" a so-called alpha man for a so-called beta during that time. So, yes, it does happen. 

It just seems every other day, there's a new thread about the alpha/beta nonsense...saying the EXACT same things as the other threads. So, yes, it IS getting old.


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## nice777guy

Zig said:


> As for the suggestions that people are tired of the whole alpha/beta thing: *when the betrayed men in the CWI forum start posting that they're 6' 4" tall alcoholic bikers who found their wives in bed with accountants who like talking about their feelings (instead of the other way around), then we can stop talking about alpha/beta.*


Why do women so often seem to "affair down"? Been awhile since I've discussed this infedility stuff - but most men who have been cheated on found themselves scratching their head as to why their wife chose "that guy" over their marriage.

They don't seem to run into the arms of Alpha's - but simply to whoever has the time to give them attention. (alcoholic bikers - or alcoholic anything doesn't fit everyone's description of an Alpha)


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## tulsy

IMO, try to balance alpha and beta qualities...you need both in the right quantities. I think the author of MMSL did a good job of describing this.


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## Zig

Maricha75 said:


> Hmmm my husband is the "tough guy" type. He's one who always hid how he was feeling. Even now, he still tries to. And yet, my EA was with someone who was more interested in talking about feelings. My husband was an auto tech. EA worked in an office, NOT high powered job, either. No, I never slept with anyone other than my husband. Still was cheating. And still, I "traded" a so-called alpha man for a so-called beta during that time. So, yes, it does happen.
> 
> It just seems every other day, there's a new thread about the alpha/beta nonsense...saying the EXACT same things as the other threads. So, yes, it IS getting old.


:slap:

OK. You got me. But I still think that my example happens more often.


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## Hope1964

My husband is far too beta and actually resists it when I tell him I want him to be more alpha.

At the same time, if he was TOO alpha, he'd get his ass kicked 

And I have never cheated, never even come close. He has tho.

What does that do to your theory?


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## tulsy

T&T said:


> IMO, it has nothing to do with this alpha beta stuff AND I still don't get it...
> 
> These reason's are far more realistic IMO. Boys, look after you ladies real needs and wants!
> 
> Top 10: Reasons Women Cheat - AskMen
> 
> T


I disagree.

It certainly can have a lot to do with alpha and beta qualities. Maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. It's not cave man vs. geek, it's about being an attractive man who is secure and balanced in *your girls eyes*.

Trying to kiss her ass and meet her every need is pure beta, and gets you nowhere...IMO, it's the worst approach, definitely not good in the long run (ask any man married for over a decade).

Why waste your time trying to meet her every need and want? What she wants is that confident man she can look up too, who still knows when help her out with the dishes. She wants to be your life's "sous-chef"...but she definitely wants you to be a man.

Read the primer MMSL.


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## Zig

Hope1964 said:


> My husband is far too beta and actually resists it when I tell him I want him to be more alpha.
> 
> At the same time, if he was TOO alpha, he'd get his ass kicked
> 
> And I have never cheated, never even come close. He has tho.
> 
> What does that do to your theory?


It's a general trend. It does not apply 100% of the time. Read in the CWI forum about what kind of man most women cheat with.


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## Zig

nice777guy said:


> Why do women so often seem to "affair down"? Been awhile since I've discussed this infedility stuff - but most men who have been cheated on found themselves scratching their head as to why their wife chose "that guy" over their marriage.
> 
> They don't seem to run into the arms of Alpha's - but simply to whoever has the time to give them attention. (alcoholic bikers - or alcoholic anything doesn't fit everyone's description of an Alpha)


Alcoholism is an alpha trait. Who were the cool guys in college? I know that the frat boys who were drunk from Friday to Sunday got way more girls than anyone else.


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## Hope1964

Zig said:


> It's a general trend. It does not apply 100% of the time. Read in the CWI forum about what kind of man most women cheat with.


Oh, I know exactly what kind of men are getting cheated ON over there. Definitely betas, many of them. I haven't paid that much attention to the kind of guy they cheat with, though.

I dunno, it's all well and good to say that 'manning up' could keep your wife from cheating, but then again, it might drive her to it. I's impossible to generalize.


----------



## Lyris

And do the alcoholic 40 year olds get all the women? 

How old are you Zig? All your examples seem to be from high school or college. Most of life is not spent in either of those places.


----------



## Ostera

arbitrator said:


> I can't help but feel that there is perhaps some creedence into "Alpha Males" attracting "Beta Females" and vice versa. If you have two "Alphas" who are strong-natured that conversely attract, commit, and marry, isn't it logical that over the course of time that one of them might stray in search of a "Beta" of the opposite sex, as that might seem more of an optimum fit for them?
> 
> Given that premise, I really don't believe that being an "Alpha" or a "Beta" either adds to or detracts from the "cheating equation."
> 
> Given the right conditions and timing, cheating can and certainly does happen!


Mine told me once that there can't be 2 Alpha in the relationship. One of the reasons she left me is she said, "You can't be controlled."

When I got more alpha, she split.


----------



## tulsy

Hope1964 said:


> My husband is far too beta and actually resists it when I tell him I want him to be more alpha.
> 
> At the same time, if he was TOO alpha, he'd get his ass kicked
> 
> And I have never cheated, never even come close. He has tho.
> 
> What does that do to your theory?


Well, the fact that you admit you want him to be more alpha definitely agrees with the theory of alpha/beta....

...but lets face it, there are countless different positions with regards to how people wind up cheating. 

Not knowing your situation, even though you look at him as too beta and somewhat weak (you said you want him more alpha, but you think he'll get beat-up...that says something of your opinion of him BTW, not knocking you, just saying it's what I read), some other woman looking at him with different colored lenses if you catch my drift. She doesn't know him like you, but he was attractive enough for her I guess...

There is also the sex-rank to be considered....I don't know where you, your hubby or the OW rank on the scale, but it has a lot to do with it. 

Also, if you know about the scale, it's only relative to personal opinion, it's not finite. For example, I don't know your hubby, but from the paragraph I'm quoting you on here, I would say you rank him at 4 with potential to be a 6....and it appears you rank yourself higher than him on the scale, but I am literally only guessing from this one quote here. 

The OW may have ranked your hubby an 8 or more, which would seem great to her especially if she is lower on the scale. 

Just talking out loud, and definitely not trying to offend.


----------



## opensesame

The alpha-beta thing is an absurdly reductionist nonsense theory, but it even fails on its own merits: in most social animal societies there is no mere division between alpha and beta, but between alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon and omega. 

There is also a huge difference between species as to how these hierarchies play out. 

Social animals have incredibly complex interactions that we can't come close to understanding yet. The idea that we can learn something from them that is applicable in human societies, which are vastly more complex still, is errant nonsense. 

That said, when I was younger (21-24 ish) I went through a period - which I am not remotely proud of and look back on with shame - of being the "other man" with a number of older married women. I was not alpha material in the slightest. I'm 5'9, average build, and quite bookish and intellectual.

The whole thing is simplistic horse manure, in my view.


----------



## EleGirl

WyshIknew said:


> Especially considering that a survey showed that the religious are more likely to 'cheat' (I hate that word 'cheat' in this context. It makes it sound analagous to 'took an extra turn at monopoly')
> 
> Statistics new show MORE Christian couples get divorced than atheists and other religions


Not exactly true. When we look at specific Christian sects, it's learn that the number differ per sect. 

What I've read on other studies is that the more tra

11% of all American adults are divorced
25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce


27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced


21% of atheists have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
24% of Mormons have been divorced
25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
29% of Baptists have been divorced
24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced


27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced
26% of people in the West have been divorced
19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced


The highest divorce rates are in the Bible Belt: "Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama and Oklahoma round out the Top Five in frequency of divorce...the divorce rates in these conservative states are roughly 50 percent above the national average" of 4.2/1000 people. Nine states in the Northeast (Connecticut, Maine, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Rhode Island, New Jersey, and Maryland) have the lowest divorce rates, averaging just 3.5/1000 people.


----------



## Zig

Lyris said:


> And do the alcoholic 40 year olds get all the women?
> 
> How old are you Zig? All your examples seem to be from high school or college. Most of life is not spent in either of those places.


I'm in my 30s. 

HS and college are the best examples because this is when girls/women have the most choosing power. They are young and the male/female gender ratio is almost equal. Later in life, men start to die off (men have riskier lifestyles and don't pay as much attention to their health as women) which means men slowly start to disappear and women have to settle for what they can get.

Did you know that some of the worst HIV outbreaks that occur in the US are in retirement homes where you literally have 2 or 3 women for every 1 man?

How would you and your girlfriends (pretend you're single) react if you just met a guy and he told you he didn't drink? Most women would say he's a wimp or probably gay.


----------



## Zig

opensesame said:


> The alpha-beta thing is an absurdly reductionist nonsense theory, but it even fails on its own merits: in most social animal societies there is no mere division between alpha and beta, but between alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon and omega.
> 
> There is also a huge difference between species as to how these hierarchies play out.
> 
> Social animals have incredibly complex interactions that we can't come close to understanding yet. The idea that we can learn something from them that is applicable in human societies, which are vastly more complex still, is errant nonsense.
> 
> That said, when I was younger (21-24 ish) I went through a period - which I am not remotely proud of and look back on with shame - of being the "other man" with a number of older married women. I was not alpha material in the slightest. I'm 5'9, average build, and quite bookish and intellectual.
> 
> The whole thing is simplistic horse manure, in my view.


Willingness to sleep with married women is PURE ALPHA. Hello?! Her husband is out working for her and she's sleeping with some young guy.


----------



## tulsy

opensesame said:


> The alpha-beta thing is an absurdly reductionist nonsense theory, but it even fails on its own merits: in most social animal societies there is no mere division between alpha and beta, but between alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon and omega.
> 
> There is also a huge difference between species as to how these hierarchies play out.
> 
> Social animals have incredibly complex interactions that we can't come close to understanding yet. The idea that we can learn something from them that is applicable in human societies, which are vastly more complex still, is errant nonsense.
> 
> That said, when I was younger (21-24 ish) I went through a period - which I am not remotely proud of and look back on with shame - of being the "other man" with a number of older married women. I was not alpha material in the slightest. I'm 5'9, average build, and quite bookish and intellectual.
> 
> The whole thing is simplistic horse manure, in my view.


Think again. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution and yet we still possess many "animalistic" qualities that simply cannot be bred out in single century. And it's not only alpha and beta...read the primer MMSL...it's not cut and dry, but there are truths to this. I only wish I knew it when I much younger.

And with regards your time as "the prize" to the older women back in your youth...you being the young man put you higher on in sex-rank to these older women than many of the younger women at the time. It's very common...there are bars where I live coined "cougar bars" where women go to meet younger men. They, being older, feel the affect of dropping down on the sex-rank scale and really get off on being found attractive by a younger man. It's an ego boost...men do the same thing with younger women.


----------



## T&T

tulsy said:


> I disagree.
> 
> It certainly can have a lot to do with alpha and beta qualities. Maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. It's not cave man vs. geek, it's about being an attractive man who is secure and balanced in *your girls eyes*.
> 
> Trying to kiss her ass and meet her every need is pure beta, and gets you nowhere...IMO, it's the worst approach, definitely not good in the long run (ask any man married for over a decade).
> 
> Why waste your time trying to meet her every need and want? What she wants is that confident man she can look up too, who still knows when help her out with the dishes. She wants to be your life's "sous-chef"...but she definitely wants you to be a man.
> 
> Read the primer MMSL.


Did you read the link I posted? There's no mention of dishes in there or kissing her a**, although that's fun sometimes.  It's what women need to stay attracted to their man. Don't provide it and get lazy and she'll get lonely and/or detached. It's about an emotional bond. If you don't have an emotional/intimate bond with your lady, chances are you ain't getting any. Some people take this alpha/beta stuff too far IMHO and I'm not referring to you. I see this in general and people are trying to change into what they're weren't in the first place. Tell me how that will work long term? 

BTW I've been married 2 decades and 3 years as of yesterday.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Zig said:


> Alcoholism is an alpha trait.


An Alcoholic is someone who doesn't have self control, isn't that the oposite of 'alpha'.


----------



## opensesame

Zig said:


> Willingness to sleep with married women is PURE ALPHA. Hello?! Her husband is out working for her and she's sleeping with some young guy.


Not so much pure alpha as pure 21-year-old male who only thinks with his penis. 



tulsy said:


> Think again. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution and yet we still possess many "animalistic" qualities that simply cannot be bred out in single century. And it's not only alpha and beta...read the primer MMSL...it's not cut and dry, but there are truths to this. I only wish I knew it when I much younger.
> 
> And with regards your time as "the prize" to the older women back in your youth...you being the young man put you higher on in sex-rank to these older women than many of the younger women at the time. It's very common...there are bars where I live coined "cougar bars" where women go to meet younger men. They, being older, feel the affect of dropping down on the sex-rank scale and really get off on being found attractive by a younger man. It's an ego boost...men do the same thing with younger women.


So why weren't those women out with the alpha male 21 year olds rather than the bookish sensitive 21 year olds like me? 

Human behaviour is much too complicated to explain away with this sort of theory.


----------



## Maricha75

Zig said:


> I'm in my 30s.
> 
> HS and college are the best examples because this is when girls/women have the most choosing power. They are young and the male/female gender ratio is almost equal. Later in life, men start to die off (men have riskier lifestyles and don't pay as much attention to their health as women) which means men slowly start to disappear and women have to settle for what they can get.
> 
> Did you know that some of the worst HIV outbreaks that occur in the US are in retirement homes where you literally have 2 or 3 women for every 1 man?
> 
> *How would you and your girlfriends (pretend you're single) react if you just met a guy and he told you he didn't drink? Most women would say he's a wimp or probably gay.*


Interesting.... non-drinker would raise him quite a few points in my eyes. Same with not using ANY recreational drugs, no matter what kind, nor smoking. And, no, I wouldn't believe him to be a wimp or gay, either.


----------



## Lyris

I'd rather someone who didn't drink than an alcoholic. I don't think I'm Robinson Crusoe there, either.

I don't know Zig. I don't really agree with anything you've written, I'm a woman, I've certainly been a high school and college/university woman, and nothing you've said resonates with my or my friends' experiences. Maybe you don't know many women like me, or something. You're attitudes seem pretty immature to me. Non-drinking equals gay? 

I've been in a relationship with my husband, who I still find very very attractive, for more than 20 years. Don't know if he's alpha or beta. Don't care. He's certainly not an alcoholic, 6 foot biker. He's not a weedy accountant either.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"How would you and your girlfriends (pretend you're single) react if you just met a guy and he told you he didn't drink? Most women would say he's a wimp or probably gay."

Zig...this question really shows your immaturity, and your lack of understanding women. Sorry but, you seem to be reading the wrong books trying to attain your alpha status.


----------



## Hope1964

tulsy said:


> Well, the fact that you admit you want him to be more alpha definitely agrees with the theory of alpha/beta....
> 
> ...but lets face it, there are countless different positions with regards to how people wind up cheating.
> 
> Not knowing your situation, even though you look at him as too beta and somewhat weak (you said you want him more alpha, but you think he'll get beat-up...that says something of your opinion of him BTW, not knocking you, just saying it's what I read), some other woman looking at him with different colored lenses if you catch my drift. She doesn't know him like you, but he was attractive enough for her I guess...
> 
> There is also the sex-rank to be considered....I don't know where you, your hubby or the OW rank on the scale, but it has a lot to do with it.
> 
> Also, if you know about the scale, it's only relative to personal opinion, it's not finite. For example, I don't know your hubby, but from the paragraph I'm quoting you on here, I would say you rank him at 4 with potential to be a 6....and it appears you rank yourself higher than him on the scale, but I am literally only guessing from this one quote here.
> 
> The OW may have ranked your hubby an 8 or more, which would seem great to her especially if she is lower on the scale.
> 
> Just talking out loud, and definitely not trying to offend.


I meant *I* would beat him up 

I don't really know enough about it to debate about it. My guess is that it's just like every other relationship theory. It has certain truths to it, more for some than others, and we should take from it what rings true for us and that's about it.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Zig said:


> I'm in my 30s.
> 
> HS and college are the best examples because this is when girls/women have the most choosing power. They are young and the male/female gender ratio is almost equal. Later in life, men start to die off (men have riskier lifestyles and don't pay as much attention to their health as women) which means men slowly start to disappear and women have to settle for what they can get.
> 
> Did you know that some of the worst HIV outbreaks that occur in the US are in retirement homes where you literally have 2 or 3 women for every 1 man?
> 
> How would you and your girlfriends (pretend you're single) react if you just met a guy and he told you he didn't drink? Most women would say he's a wimp or probably gay.


My fiance hardly ever drinks. Maybe one drink a month.

He's far from being whimpy and I'm positive he's not gay. 

A man in control of himself is very sexy.


----------



## TeaLeaves4

tulsy said:


> I disagree.
> 
> It certainly can have a lot to do with alpha and beta qualities. Maybe you are looking at this the wrong way. It's not cave man vs. geek, it's about being an attractive man who is secure and balanced in *your girls eyes*.
> 
> Trying to kiss her ass and meet her every need is pure beta, and gets you nowhere...IMO, it's the worst approach, definitely not good in the long run (ask any man married for over a decade).
> 
> Why waste your time trying to meet her every need and want? What she wants is that confident man she can look up too, who still knows when help her out with the dishes. She wants to be your life's "sous-chef"...but she definitely wants you to be a man.
> 
> Read the primer MMSL.


Hmm, but I bet you expect her to meet your every want and need right? 

My husband is secure and confident. I don't look "up" to him, we look at each other from an equal footing. And he does his share of dishes not to "help" but because they are his dishes too. He's definitely a man and gets treated as such.

I'm so glad he knows what being a real man means without having to subscribe to silliness like this.


----------



## Adex

Zig said:


> Women want men who are attractive to other women. Have you ever heard of the saying "The easiest way to get a girlfriend is to already have one"? This is why it's often really difficult for a teenage boy/young man to get his first girlfriend but once he succeeds, the rest come much more easily.
> 
> I have guy friends who started getting phone calls and FB messages from women who had earlier said that they looked at them as a brother as soon as they found out he was engaged. Another woman had approved of him so now they wanted to poach him.
> 
> So much of what a woman finds attractive in a man is based on what other women think of him. Everyone has observed this behavior: a woman thinks some guy is really hot/cute in a quirky way, but her friends disapprove of him. There is no way that she'll go against the group when they don't like him.
> 
> As for the suggestions that people are tired of the whole alpha/beta thing: *when the betrayed men in the CWI forum start posting that they're 6' 4" tall alcoholic bikers who found their wives in bed with accountants who like talking about their feelings (instead of the other way around), then we can stop talking about alpha/beta.*


I was only on page 2 of reading this thread, so am responding kind of late. You'll notice most of the people that disagree with the alpha/beta business and with what I've said are women.

Of course, women don't like to hear that kind of stuff. We are in a society now where feminism is the norm and not the exception.

If you see a guy disagree with the alpha business, it's most likely because he's a mr. nice guy or a beta. Nothing wrong with it.

However, I'm a firm believer that being more alpha is not just innate, but can be learned. If you attempt every day to act more confident, more alpha, you will become like that.

I myself don't consider myself a true alpha. However, I used to be a nice guy and have always been nice. When I was young in high school and college, I had several girlfriends. While I cheated on some of them and they didn't know about it, two of them ended up cheating on me.

I attribute that to the fact that I was too beta at the time. I'm trying to improve myself everyday to become more alpha.


----------



## Maricha75

Adex said:


> I was only on page 2 of reading this thread, so am responding kind of late. You'll notice most of the people that disagree with the alpha/beta business and with what I've said are women.
> 
> *Of course, women don't like to hear that kind of stuff. We are in a society now where feminism is the norm and not the exception.*
> 
> If you see a guy disagree with the alpha business, it's most likely because he's a mr. nice guy or a beta. Nothing wrong with it.
> 
> However, I'm a firm believer that being more alpha is not just innate, but can be learned. If you attempt every day to act more confident, more alpha, you will become like that.
> 
> I myself don't consider myself a true alpha. However, I used to be a nice guy and have always been nice. When I was young in high school and college, I had several girlfriends. While I cheated on some of them and they didn't know about it, two of them ended up cheating on me.
> 
> I attribute that to the fact that I was too beta at the time. I'm trying to improve myself everyday to become more alpha.


Oh, it couldn't POSSIBLY be because we women actually know what we are talking about FOR OURSELVES. I really couldn't GAF what another woman finds attractive in a man. I am stating my OWN preferences. But, hey, you "alpha" men have fun with your theories. Good luck with that! :smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## TeaLeaves4

Adex said:


> I was only on page 2 of reading this thread, so am responding kind of late. You'll notice most of the people that disagree with the alpha/beta business and with what I've said are women.
> 
> Of course, women don't like to hear that kind of stuff. We are in a society now where feminism is the norm and not the exception.
> 
> If you see a guy disagree with the alpha business, it's most likely because he's a mr. nice guy or a beta. Nothing wrong with it.


Well, yeah, the only people who are going to really agree with you are people who label themselves as you do and spend their time reading Internet forums to try to find out how to act like a man.


----------



## Adex

Maricha75 said:


> Oh, it couldn't POSSIBLY be because we women actually know what we are talking about FOR OURSELVES. I really couldn't GAF what another woman finds attractive in a man. I am stating my OWN preferences. But, hey, you "alpha" men have fun with your theories. Good luck with that! :smthumbup::smthumbup:


That's why you see a lot of women always say they want someone that's nice, a gentleman, etc. yet date jerks that treat them like **** and leave them.

No I don't believe women say what they really want.


----------



## Cosmos

I think we have to accept that many people who cheat, cheat because they are cheaters. They don't necessarily cheat because there is something lacking in their spouses, they cheat because they like the thrill of cheating and refuse to resist the temptation of it.

I don't believe that being alpha is going to safeguard any man against a cheating wife, any more than a woman being alpha is going to safeguard her against a cheating husband. 

If someone wants to cheat, given the opportunity, IMO, they will find a way to do so.


----------



## Ikaika

Adex said:


> No I don't believe women say what they really want.


Interesting statement... Wow, Amazing. Have fun with standing behind this statement.


----------



## Adex

drerio said:


> Interesting statement... Wow, Amazing. Have fun with standing behind this statement.


Well I should put that into context. When it comes to guys and relationships, often times I find women say one thing but really feel or want another.

Why else do you see, particularly on this discussion board, men who have tried giving everything to their wives because it's what they supposedly want, yet their wives don't care for them? Or they've tried to be the best husband and improve, but the wife doesn't want to have sex with him?


----------



## Maricha75

Adex said:


> That's why you see a lot of women always say they want someone that's nice, a gentleman, etc. yet date jerks that treat them like **** and leave them.
> 
> *No I don't believe women say what they really want.*


Interesting... I think the same can be said for men. The funny thing is that I didn't tell my husband exactly what I wanted before. That much is true. Honestly, I don't think he was in the right frame of mind to handle what I wanted, or even needed, at the time. And no, that is NOT an excuse for my f*ck up. In his mental/psychological state at the time, he couldn't have done what I needed him to do. Instead of focusing on him and the kids and strengthening things as best I could, considering... I took the WRONG path. But now? Since we BOTH have acknowledged our EAs, we BOTH tell each other what we want and need from each other. Although... it takes a bit more to get him to open up. But yes, I know what I want. My husband knows what I want. And the so-called "alpha", chest beating crap ain't it.


----------



## Ikaika

Adex said:


> Well I should put that into context. When it comes to guys and relationships, often times I find women say one thing but really feel or want another.
> 
> Why else do you see, particularly on this discussion board, men who have tried giving everything to their wives because it's what they supposedly want, yet their wives don't care for them? Or they've tried to be the best husband and improve, but the wife doesn't want to have sex with him?


I think both sexes play games equally. I think both men and women could be accused of saying one thing and mean another... This is done for various reasons, immaturity, trying to hide something, etc. I for one think you will have hard time defending the meaning of the statement. 

The problem with your contextual statement is more often than not on the CWI threads is we only get to hear one side of the story. A little disingenuous to start making assumptions without hearing both sides.


----------



## jaquen

juicecondensation said:


> Women are not very likely to cheat so I don't think it matters if you are alpha or beta. The chances that she would cheat are very small.


The 1890's called, they'd like their statistics back.


----------



## in my tree

yellowledbet said:


> What if instead of trying to act alpha you worked everyday to enrich your life? What if the core of your beliefs was that you wanted to grow your knowledge, experience life, take care of your body, grow spiritually, love and cherish your wife, protect and provide for your family, nurture your children, and provide a strong example for your children? What if you worked at those beliefs relentlessly everyday? Do you think the by product would be that you would give a sh*t less about acting alpha because you would already have the confidence that you are the best person that you can be?


Forget all that alpha/beta stuff. Too complicated, too many games and often times involves being someone that you may not be. What yellowledbet (love the name...) said here makes so much sense to me. Just work to be the best you that you can be without trying to manipulate or play games with someone else.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Another thread pi$$ing on Beta men, what else is new here on TAM....

I prefer the Beta boys over those Alphas who spread their seed all over town - Praising their Alpha conquests -before deciding to settle down (if they ever do)...

I'd never cheat on a GOOD man - no matter what he was.... If I was married to an unemotional controlling Jerk Alpha, I'd want to spit him out of my mouth and go looking for the Romantic Beta ... I want my Lover to be my "Best friend". 

Just not always true, depends on the woman, her values, what she wants out of Love, marriage...and Family life.


----------



## EleGirl

Adex said:


> ....
> 
> I myself don't consider myself a true alpha. However, I used to be a nice guy and have always been nice. When I was young in high school and college, I had several girlfriends. While I cheated on some of them and they didn't know about it, two of them ended up cheating on me.
> 
> I attribute that to the fact that I was too beta at the time. I'm trying to improve myself everyday to become more alpha.


If you cheated on your girlfriends, you were not a nice guy at all. 

The problem with the two girls that cheated is not that you were not alpha enough, it's that they had the same moral compus that you had(have).


----------



## WyshIknew

EleGirl said:


> Not exactly true. When we look at specific Christian sects, it's learn that the number differ per sect.
> 
> What I've read on other studies is that the more tra
> 
> 11% of all American adults are divorced
> 25% of all American adults have had at least one divorce
> 
> 
> 27% of born-again Christians have had at least one divorce
> 24% of all non-born-again Christians have been divorced
> 
> 
> 21% of atheists have been divorced
> 21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
> 24% of Mormons have been divorced
> 25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
> 29% of Baptists have been divorced
> 24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced
> 
> 
> 27% of people in the South and Midwest have been divorced
> 26% of people in the West have been divorced
> 19% of people in the Northwest and Northeast have been divorced
> 
> 
> The highest divorce rates are in the Bible Belt: "Tennessee, Arkansas, Alabama and Oklahoma round out the Top Five in frequency of divorce...the divorce rates in these conservative states are roughly 50 percent above the national average" of 4.2/1000 people. Nine states in the Northeast (Connecticut, Maine, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Rhode Island, New Jersey, and Maryland) have the lowest divorce rates, averaging just 3.5/1000 people.


Yea I know Elegirl it just bugs me when you get some religious crack head saying "them damn atheists eat babies and sin and get divorced and they're teh Debbil"

In reality I suspect that atheists christians are as likely to cheat as anyone else.


----------



## EleGirl

Adex said:


> Well I should put that into context. When it comes to guys and relationships, often times I find women say one thing but really feel or want another.
> 
> Why else do you see, particularly on this discussion board, men who have tried giving everything to their wives because it's what they supposedly want, yet their wives don't care for them? Or they've tried to be the best husband and improve, but the wife doesn't want to have sex with him?


We are only getting one side of the story here. You do not know for a fact that the men posting here are in fact meeting their wife's needs. It's not that the guy are lying, but we are getting a screwed view point.

Almost every time we have a spouse post in response to what their spouse wrote about them.. it sounds like two different stories.


----------



## Cosmos

EleGirl said:


> We are only getting one side of the story here. You do not know for a fact that the men posting here are in fact meeting their wife's needs. It's not that the guy are lying, but we are getting a screwed view point.
> 
> Almost every time we have a spouse post in response to what their spouse wrote about them.. it sounds like two different stories.


:iagree:

And I'm a firm believer that there are always 3 sides to every story. A's side, B's side and the true perspective. When people are neck deep in trouble, it's very difficult for them to see the wood for the trees.


----------



## RandomDude

> Why else do you see, particularly on this discussion board, men who have tried giving everything to their wives because it's what they supposedly want, yet their wives don't care for them? Or they've tried to be the best husband and improve, but the wife doesn't want to have sex with him?












That's why.

Loving yourself first is very important for any relationship whether husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, or just mates. Love can not come when there is no respect. It really is quite simple.

You have to be loving, caring, forfill her needs yes. Not an a$$hole, but that does not mean you can not be FIRM with your boundaries.


----------



## WyshIknew

Adex said:


> I don't see it happening too much. In almost all these cheating wife threads on this forum, the guys posting about it mostly portray the relationship as them being too nice and her not appreciating it. In effect, their behavior has been too beta.
> 
> When the man takes charge and the lead in the relationship, she respects that and will think twice about cheating on her husband. I'm not saying that being alpha will always mean your wife will not cheat, but I'm saying that there is a much better chance she won't cheat on you. I'm also using the term alpha in its positive respects and am not referring to being abusive, arrogant, or violent towards her.
> 
> The irony is that the more you're the most caring or nicest husband to her, the higher the chance of her cheating.




I think some of this is confirmation bias on your part Adex.

I also see posts on here where the man has been very inattentive to his wife, basically leaving his wife to run the house while he works then comes home to play WOW or whatever, has turned into a fatty and expects to roll on top of his wife once a week and then roll off again.

It's human nature, very few people are going to post and say "actually I've been very inattentive and shut my wife/hubby out"

I've been married 23 years, together 25 and my secret recipe for success is;

Respect one another.

Communicate with each other.

Do things together.

I think the 'alpha' thing might seem to work simply because you are paying attention to your wife and marriage. Which can't be a bad thing.

I know I have posted similar before on your threads but I think it bears repeating. It is not rocket science to understand that losing weight, getting fit, dressing smarter, doing things with confidence and focussing on your wife and marriage is going to be attractive.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Adex said:


> That's why you see a lot of women always say they want someone that's nice, a gentleman, etc. yet date jerks that treat them like **** and leave them.
> 
> No I don't believe women say what they really want.


Lol

I can tell you that I find strong men who know their own minds, who know what they want, who are not push overs very attractive.

I do not find alcoholic cheating selfish losers attractive. 

A man can be alpha, but also be kind, respectful, loving and caring. A real man IMO is one who puts his family first and loves and cares for people especially his wife.

You will find many women posting on these boards wanting to leave abusive/ alcoholic/ selfish jerks.


----------



## WyshIknew

*LittleDeer* said:


> Lol
> 
> I can tell you that I find strong men who know their own minds, who know what they want, who are not push overs very attractive.
> 
> I do not find alcoholic cheating selfish losers attractive.
> 
> A man can be alpha, but also be kind, respectful, loving and caring. A real man IMO is one who puts his family first and loves and cares for people especially his wife.
> 
> *You will find many women posting on these boards wanting to leave abusive/ alcoholic/ selfish jerks*.


Yeah but if they say they are alpha that trumps all. You wimmen just won't be able to help yourselves.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

WyshIknew said:


> Yeah but if they say they are alpha that trumps all. You wimmen just won't be able to help yourselves.


True -sorry. I spoke out of turn.

I need constant manly alpha instruction or my mind does all sorts of thinking.


----------



## WyshIknew

*LittleDeer* said:


> True -sorry. I spoke out of turn.
> 
> I need constant manly alpha instruction or my mind does all sorts of thinking.


Please take notice LittleDeer, beware the perils of trying to think for yourself.

Women: Know Your Limits! Harry Enfield - BBC comedy - YouTube


----------



## opensesame

Adex said:


> If you see a guy disagree with the alpha business, it's most likely because he's a mr. nice guy or a beta. Nothing wrong with it.


I disagree with it because there is no empirical evidence for it whatsoever and it doesn't remotely fit my experience of life, sex and women.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

WyshIknew said:


> Please take notice LittleDeer, beware the perils of trying to think for yourself.
> 
> Women: Know Your Limits! Harry Enfield - BBC comedy - YouTube


:rofl:
I've seen this before, and it's gold. :lol:


----------



## jaquen

"Alpha men", as they're described in the various books, wouldn't likely be on TAM, spending countless hours trying to hock the alpha male perspective. They'd be too busy enjoying the fruits of their alphaness.

Books like MMSL primer and NMMNG are, by their very nature, targeted toward mostly weak, spineless, doormat men who need some guidance, and hand holding, toward embracing basic concepts like self respect, self care, and common sense. They tell you something that should, if your brain is working correctly, come naturally; if you don't let a woman steam roll over you, she is going to have more respect for you; if you actually get off your fat ass and chisel out a decent body, your wife will likely find you more attractive. Yes, major revelations indeed. Obvious party of one, your table is ready.

The alpha debates continue because they're fueled primarily by weak men who need to believe that they can become strong men. These men are in a constant battle to not feel inferior, weak, rolled over. They're not truly "alpha" anything, just on a constant quest to not be beta/sigma. They are terrified men mostly, men who were screwed over, allowed themselves to be screwed over, and are so petrified that something inside of them will always lead them down a road to being screwed over again. They have to cling hold, for dear life, to the principles espoused in these books, lest they drift back toward Doormatville. These are the men who need to believe strongly in "us vs them" mentality. They need to romanticize the college frat boy, or the high school football quarterback, the men they assumed were the prize, the men they wanted desperately to be. The weak man will spend more time thinking about how much ass the frat boy got 20 years ago, because he just can not get over his feeling of inadequacy. He has to believe, deep down, that there is a "frat boy" inside, a way to unlock his "true" self, and then maybe, just maybe, women will want him, like they did Mr. Jock, or Mr. Financier, or Mr. Quarterback. Everyone wants to be the star of the team, and this whole "alpha male" culture promises that you, too, can be the star.

It's alluring, and seductive, and creates following of men who will fight tooth, and nail, to hold on to these simplified, limited views. We all need something to believe in, and they need this.

Few want to hear the real truth. 

That no, you aren't Mr. Quarterback, and you never will be.

Yes, "alpha men" do get cheated on.

The reason the jocks got "laid like tile" is because they looked better than you, and played a sport that many, male and female, young and old, romanticize. 

"Hot" guys get laid more, because they're hot. This includes "hot" accountants who do dishes. "Hot" dudes who don't drink. "Hot" engineers who don't know jack about football. "Hot" actors who are in touch with their sensitive sides. "Hot" nerds who love to play WOW. "Hot" shy loners who still have trouble communicating. "Hot", genuinely nice guys. You'd be surprised how much of this alpha/beta/sigmaphigamma theory goes flying out the window when a guy is "hot". 

No, your wife didn't cheat on you with a 6' 1'' alcoholic. She just as likely cheated on you with regular Joe from the office, who treated her like a desirable human being, didn't take her for granted, made her feel young again, and looked good in a pair of Dockers. 

The best you can do is look in the mirror, and get real. Do you look like sh*t? Correct that. Are you actually being true to yourself? Nope, than fix that. Nothing will ever improve you better than actually discovering what makes you tick, and owning that. It helps create a confidence in you that will be very difficult to break. It helps you feel more comfortable in your own skin, to own exactly who you are, unashamed. It's amazing how tough it is to be a doormat when you're living your authentic self.

Stop obsessing about the jocks of your youth, the frat guys of your salad days, or the wall street broker of your dreams. You're spending more time thinking about them than they ever thought about you, or that the women they phuck ever even thought about them. You are obsessed with the "alpha" men. You are obsessed with discovering their "secret". Your whole life is becoming a race to be like some young, handsome man you once recalled having no problem landing women.

Trouble is, you're not him. And guess what? It's been 20 damn years. He's not him anymore either.


----------



## BjornFree

Is it really so hard to understand that Adex makes threads just to garner attention , regardless of the fact that its negative attention he's getting?


----------



## yellowledbet

I am alpha :lol:


----------



## BjornFree

yellowledbet said:


> I am alpha :lol:


Believe it or not, that's quite a healthy attitude to have


----------



## jaquen

BjornFree said:


> Believe it or not, that's quite a healthy attitude to have


But no, it really isn't. Because the kitten is not a cub. Healthy would be a young cub looking in the mirror, seeing what he can be, naturally, what he already is. The cub is a big cat, waiting to develop. He is small, but there is something huge inside.

But a kitten is not a big cat. He will never be a big cat. His life will be wasted in frustration, bitterness, and self loathing if he spends it waiting for that lion to show up, when that lion never will.

Best get to working on himself, so that he can become the best damn domesticated cat that he can be.


----------



## BjornFree

jaquen said:


> But no, it really isn't. Because the kitten is not a cub. Healthy would be a young cub looking in the mirror, seeing what he can be, naturally, what he already is. The cub is a big cat, waiting to develop. He is small, but there is something huge inside.
> 
> But a kitten is not a big cat. He will never be a big cat. His life will be wasted in frustration, bitterness, and self loathing if he spends it waiting for that lion to show up, when that lion never will.
> 
> Best get to working on himself, so that he can become the best damn domesticated cat that he can be.


Well you're entitled to how you feel about it.

But, I don't think the world would have heard of an Oscar pistorius or a Helen Keller or a  Stephen Hawking if any of them believed that they were limited by their disabilities.

But hey, you don't have to agree with me nor am I trying to convince you.


----------



## tulsy

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Hmm, but I bet you expect her to meet your every want and need right?
> 
> My husband is secure and confident. I don't look "up" to him, we look at each other from an equal footing. And he does his share of dishes not to "help" but because they are his dishes too. He's definitely a man and gets treated as such.
> 
> I'm so glad he knows what being a real man means without having to subscribe to silliness like this.


Nope. Not me. I simply meant if she was doing the dishes and I was finished what I was doing, I would help her finish the dishes...dishes was an example...if she was changing the oil in my car, same thing...it was just and example, not a "woman's job" jab.

It's teamwork in my house, we help each other, regardless of what it is (although, she doesn't do electrical, plumbing and the like, which I do)...that said, at the end of the day she wants to be with a man.


----------



## yellowledbet

BjornFree said:


> Well you're entitled to how you feel about it.
> 
> But, I don't think the world would have heard of an Oscar pistorius or a Helen Keller or a  Stephen Hawking if any of them believed that they were limited by their disabilities.
> 
> But hey, you don't have to agree with me nor am I trying to convince you.


Straw man. Not knowing what you are is not a disability.


----------



## jaquen

BjornFree said:


> Well you're entitled to how you feel about it.
> 
> But, I don't think the world would have heard of an Oscar pistorius or a Helen Keller or a  Stephen Hawking if any of them believed that they were limited by their disabilities.
> 
> But hey, you don't have to agree with me nor am I trying to convince you.


Nope, you got it all wrong.

I never said anything about being limited by "disabilities". That's a total fabrication on your part; completely illogical.

In the example given, you're suggesting that what the kitten will naturally grow up to be, a breed of small, domesticated cat, is somehow inferior, or a "disability". Except no, it is not.

Being a lion is not inherently more superior than being a domesticated cat. It's very telling that you used "disability" to categorize what the cat actually is. You think it healthy that a domestic cat dream of being a lion, when, well, he can never be a lion, because he is a domestic cat.

Sums up the problem with a lot of these endless alpha/beta threads. Putting arbitrary value on traits some people naturally possess, and devaluing the equal, but different, traits that others do.


----------



## tulsy

T&T said:


> IMO, it has nothing to do with this alpha beta stuff AND I still don't get it...
> 
> These reason's are far more realistic IMO. *Boys, look after you ladies real needs and wants! *
> 
> Top 10: Reasons Women Cheat - AskMen
> 
> T





T&T said:


> Did you read the link I posted? There's no mention of dishes in there or kissing her a**, although that's fun sometimes.  It's what women need to stay attracted to their man. Don't provide it and get lazy and she'll get lonely and/or detached. It's about an emotional bond. If you don't have an emotional/intimate bond with your lady, chances are you ain't getting any. Some people take this alpha/beta stuff too far IMHO and I'm not referring to you. I see this in general and people are trying to change into what they're weren't in the first place. Tell me how that will work long term?
> 
> BTW I've been married 2 decades and 3 years as of yesterday.


I was quoting your "Boys, look after you ladies real needs and wants!" statement...it's just not something I sit there and concentrate on.

I agree with you on many levels here....it kinda goes without saying that if you are lazy in life and love she may walk away from the relationship. It works the other way too....I walked away from a woman who was like this...no one wants to stay with someone like that, male or female.

I think it comes down to becoming the best "you" you can be. I mean being productive, staying active, actually doing things, travelling, working out, eating right, grooming yourself....taking care of yourself and living a real life, off the couch. It increases your self confidence, and makes you attractive to the opposite sex.

The part about relationships...I agree, there needs to be strong emotional bonds between people.

Congrats on the long marriage.


----------



## BjornFree

yellowledbet said:


> Straw man. Not knowing what you are is not a disability.


You think so?

Well Pistorius was born with fibular hemimilia, he knew exactly who he was and what the world thought about him. I mean he could have grown up thinking that a wheelchair was all that he ever was entitled to. Lets just agree to disagree here. We all view things differently.


----------



## jaquen

BjornFree said:


> You think so?
> 
> Well Pistorius was born with fibular hemimilia, he knew exactly who he was and what the world thought about him. Lets just agree to disagree here. We all view things differently.


Still don't get it.

Neither one of us is arguing this point at all.


----------



## opensesame

jaquen said:


> "Alpha men", as they're described in the various books, wouldn't likely be on TAM, spending countless hours trying to hock the alpha male perspective. They'd be too busy enjoying the fruits of their alphaness.
> 
> Books like MMSL primer and NMMNG are, by their very nature, targeted toward mostly weak, spineless, doormat men who need some guidance, and hand holding, toward embracing basic concepts like self respect, self care, and common sense. They tell you something that should, if your brain is working correctly, come naturally; if you don't let a woman steam roll over you, she is going to have more respect for you; if you actually get off your fat ass and chisel out a decent body, your wife will likely find you more attractive. Yes, major revelations indeed. Obvious party of one, your table is ready.
> 
> The alpha debates continue because they're fueled primarily by weak men who need to believe that they can become strong men. These men are in a constant battle to not feel inferior, weak, rolled over. They're not truly "alpha" anything, just on a constant quest to not be beta/sigma. They are terrified men mostly, men who were screwed over, allowed themselves to be screwed over, and are so petrified that something inside of them will always lead them down a road to being screwed over again. They have to cling hold, for dear life, to the principles espoused in these books, lest they drift back toward Doormatville. These are the men who need to believe strongly in "us vs them" mentality. They need to romanticize the college frat boy, or the high school football quarterback, the men they assumed were the prize, the men they wanted desperately to be. The weak man will spend more time thinking about how much ass the frat boy got 20 years ago, because he just can not get over his feeling of inadequacy. He has to believe, deep down, that there is a "frat boy" inside, a way to unlock his "true" self, and then maybe, just maybe, women will want him, like they did Mr. Jock, or Mr. Financier, or Mr. Quarterback. Everyone wants to be the star of the team, and this whole "alpha male" culture promises that you, too, can be the star.
> 
> It's alluring, and seductive, and creates following of men who will fight tooth, and nail, to hold on to these simplified, limited views. We all need something to believe in, and they need this.
> 
> Few want to hear the real truth.
> 
> That no, you aren't Mr. Quarterback, and you never will be.
> 
> Yes, "alpha men" do get cheated on.
> 
> The reason the jocks got "laid like tile" is because they looked better than you, and played a sport that many, male and female, young and old, romanticize.
> 
> "Hot" guys get laid more, because they're hot. This includes "hot" accountants who do dishes. "Hot" dudes who don't drink. "Hot" engineers who don't know jack about football. "Hot" actors who are in touch with their sensitive sides. "Hot" nerds who love to play WOW. "Hot" shy loners who still have trouble communicating. "Hot", genuinely nice guys. You'd be surprised how much of this alpha/beta/sigmaphigamma theory goes flying out the window when a guy is "hot".
> 
> No, your wife didn't cheat on you with a 6' 1'' alcoholic. She just as likely cheated on you with regular Joe from the office, who treated her like a desirable human being, didn't take her for granted, made her feel young again, and looked good in a pair of Dockers.
> 
> The best you can do is look in the mirror, and get real. Do you look like sh*t? Correct that. Are you actually being true to yourself? Nope, than fix that. Nothing will ever improve you better than actually discovering what makes you tick, and owning that. It helps create a confidence in you that will be very difficult to break. It helps you feel more comfortable in your own skin, to own exactly who you are, unashamed. It's amazing how tough it is to be a doormat when you're living your authentic self.
> 
> Stop obsessing about the jocks of your youth, the frat guys of your salad days, or the wall street broker of your dreams. You're spending more time thinking about them than they ever thought about you, or that the women they phuck ever even thought about them. You are obsessed with the "alpha" men. You are obsessed with discovering their "secret". Your whole life is becoming a race to be like some young, handsome man you once recalled having no problem landing women.
> 
> Trouble is, you're not him. And guess what? It's been 20 damn years. He's not him anymore either.


I think you officially won the thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## yellowledbet

BjornFree said:


> You think so?


I really don't see the connection. 



BjornFree said:


> Lets just agree to disagree here. We all view things differently.


:smthumbup:Totally agree.


----------



## BjornFree

jaquen said:


> Nope, you got it all wrong.
> 
> I never said anything about being limited by "disabilities". That's a total fabrication on your part; completely illogical.
> 
> In the example given, you're suggesting that what the kitten will naturally grow up to be, a breed of small, domesticated cat, is somehow inferior, or a "disability". Except no, it is not.
> 
> Being a lion is not inherently more superior than being a domesticated cat. It's very telling that you used "disability" to categorize what the cat actually is. You think it healthy that a domestic cat dream of being a lion, when, well, he can never be a lion, because he is a domestic cat.
> 
> Sums up the problem with a lot of these endless alpha/beta threads. Putting arbitrary value on traits some people naturally possess, and devaluing the equal, but different, traits that others do.


Do human beings grow up to be anything other than human beings?

Are you telling me that you'd discourage a man from becoming that which he aspires to be, solely based on the fact that he isn't anywhere near his goal? Who do you think is going to get farther? A fat man who sees the underlying muscles when he looks in the mirror and works to achieve his goal or a fat man who only sees himself as fat and resigns himself to eating fatty foods all his life?


----------



## BjornFree

yellowledbet said:


> I really don't see the connection.
> 
> 
> 
> :smthumbup:Totally agree.


Of course you don't see the connection. Not arguing with you on that one.


----------



## jaquen

BjornFree said:


> Do human beings grow up to be anything other than human beings?


No, they don't. Which is the point.

If you had a child who wanted to grow up to be a beluga whale, if that was their absolute life long dream, to literally transform into a whale who lives under the sea, would you encourage them in that delusion by telling them to shoot for their dreams, or try and divert them back to being the best human being they can be?




BjornFree said:


> Are you telling me that you'd discourage a man from becoming that which he aspires to be, solely based on the fact that he isn't anywhere near his goal?


The kitten in the picture isn't anywhere near his goal because he *cannot be a lion*. It is impossible.The kitten has just as much chance at reaching his goal to become a lion as your imagery son has of waking up one morning as a 7 ton beluga whale.



BjornFree said:


> Who do you think is going to get farther? A fat man who sees the underlying muscles when he looks in the mirror and works to achieve his goal or a fat man who only sees himself as fat and resigns himself to eating fatty foods all his life?


Great example. I was the fat guy who never saw himself as fat, it always felt completely wrong that I was fat, worked to eliminate the outward shell that didn't meet me inward vision, and freed myself.

The difference? That goal was well within possibility.

If I, however, looked in the mirror and believed that deep down I was suppose to be an old oak tree, that will present problems.

Of course you'd just tell me to keep reaching for my oak tree dreams, and don't let anything stop me.


----------



## yellowledbet

BjornFree said:


> Of course you don't see the connection. Not arguing with you on that one.


huh? I thought we were agreeing to disagree? Now you are just being passive aggressive.


----------



## BjornFree

jaquen said:


> The kitten in the picture isn't anywhere near his goal because he *cannot be a lion*. It is impossible.The kitten has just as much chance at reaching his goal to become a lion as your imagery son has of waking up one morning as a 7 ton beluga whale.


Small wonder that we had differing views on the subject. You're just looking at the picture on a superficial scale. What you see is a lion and a cat, two separate entities. When I look at that picture I see two people. The reflection hints at potential and while the other looks on clearly ambitious and a little discontent.


----------



## jaquen

Let me just sum this up with pictures:

*Unhealthy/Delusional
*









*Healthy/Aspirational
*


----------



## BjornFree

Okay. Carry on.


----------



## jaquen

Back to the topic, I can't be the only person who sees the humor in this guy:










Leading the alpha revolution.


----------



## ocotillo

jaquen said:


> Back to the topic, I can't be the only person who sees the humor in this guy
> Leading the alpha revolution.



One thing I don't think those books are terribly clear about is that we're talking about perceptions; specifically female perceptions of a man.

Female perceptions of a man and male perceptions of a man are not necessarily identical equivalents; at least not based on what I've observed in life. 

I'll use my late FIL as an example. --Big, tall, handsome. Joined the Air Force right out of college because he wanted to be a pilot, but his aptitudes and IQ were way too high at the height of the cold war for that. A man like him was needed in the missile program. -Rose to the level of Captain and was second in command at an installation in the Dakotas.

Men fell in line behind him like dominoes, because men respect it when a man is not only bigger and tougher than them, but much smarter as well. And as a SAC officer, he had all kinds of specialized training above and beyond regular Air Force. Men who understood the nature of the training respected that too. 

None of that meant anything to his wife. She had a little rhyme that she would say now and then that went like this:

"_He is big, he is dumb, I've got him wrapped around my thumb_." 

The fact that he had been cut off for years and years was one of the family secrets that everybody knew, but nobody ever talked about. His failings with his wife seem pretty obvious in the context of that rhyme, but they had little to do with whether he was 'Alpha' from a male perspective or not.


----------



## TiggyBlue

jaquen said:


> Back to the topic, I can't be the only person who sees the humor in this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leading the alpha revolution.


Ok kinda did lol at that.


----------



## DjangoJr

lol I think people ignore the fact that there are many dimensions of alpha...

and dude could be a boss lol


----------



## WyshIknew

BjornFree said:


> Do human beings grow up to be anything other than human beings?
> 
> Are you telling me that you'd discourage a man from becoming that which he aspires to be, solely based on the fact that he isn't anywhere near his goal? Who do you think is going to get farther? A fat man who sees the underlying muscles when he looks in the mirror and works to achieve his goal or a fat man who only sees himself as fat and resigns himself to eating fatty foods all his life?


Thing is Bjorn you can be as alpha or beta or sigma as you like there are certain things you can't overcome. I don't know what this chap is like as a person but I sense that the chances of him attracting an 'attractive' mate are fairly low.










It has nothing to do with alpha beta or anything like that, the guy is just unfortunate. He can be as alpha as he likes, he is not going to get the girl.

Conversely this man probably can pick up attractive women just by turning up.










You can only do so much by being 'alpha' and looking after yourself but the truth remains that by and large Mr and Mrs good looking will tend to attract Mr and Mrs good looking.


----------



## BjornFree

Wysh, I don't know how to explain it to you but not everything revolves around how to become more attractive to the opposite sex. So what if the chap isn't the most handsome looking fellow? There are things in life that are of more value than looks or the amount of pvssy a man gets. We don't know the fellow and for all you know he might be helping a thousand different people in a thousand different ways. All that matters is how much you value yourself and how much value you can bring into someone's life.

The only point I was trying to make was that people should believe in themselves. Too many people go around looking for validation from others. Most of our lives are spent in seeking someone's approval. Am I attractive enough? Can I hope to accomplish this? The guys who really are successful are the ones who believe that they're going to be successful and work hard for it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

jaquen....Is that a pic of Athol Kay?


----------



## Maricha75

Faithful Wife said:


> jaquen....Is that a pic of Athol Kay?


I believe so.... I did a search and found pics of him which are very similar....so, most likely, yes.


----------



## Faithful Wife

That is what I had thought, but wasn't sure. The pic of him on his website is slightly better than that pic...but still pretty much the same.

The other thing about Athol's work is, I don't understand why he would claim to know anything about dating. He has been in a happy marriage for a very long time (ie: no real dating experience in the last 15 years)...yet has advice to give on how to be alpha with your dates? Rediculous.

If anyone wants to know what "real" alpha guys are like in the dating world, ask some women who are dating them.

(I only use the "alpha" label because I know others will understand what I mean...but I agree, it is a useless label).


----------



## WyshIknew

BjornFree said:


> Wysh, I don't know how to explain it to you but not everything revolves around how to become more attractive to the opposite sex. So what if the chap isn't the most handsome looking fellow? There are things in life that are of more value than looks or the amount of pvssy a man gets. We don't know the fellow and for all you know he might be helping a thousand different people in a thousand different ways. All that matters is how much you value yourself and how much value you can bring into someone's life.
> 
> The only point I was trying to make was that people should believe in themselves. Too many people go around looking for validation from others. Most of our lives are spent in seeking someone's approval. Am I attractive enough? Can I hope to accomplish this? The guys who really are successful are the ones who believe that they're going to be successful and work hard for it.


I do realise that, and I was only using the pics as an extreme example.
I just wanted to poiint out that in general like is attracted to like.
Yes the person in the second pic is going to get humped or get the offers of being humped more often than the person in the first pic.
In my own experience, once men/women realise that life is more than whether someone is more than dude/dudess of the month other factors come into play.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

People cheat because they are selfish, lack control, are unhappy with themselves, are perpetual victims and don't have the guts to end a relationship before starting a new one. It has nothing to do with alpha or beta, it has to do with the individual person and their brokenness.


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## Shadow_Nirvana

I think you guys are a bit wrong on this. 

First of all, I don't believe that any man wanting to better themself is a bad thing. Yes, probably the guys who are reading these stuff from internet forums and books are doormats and Mr. Nice Guys etc. Actually "Seduction Community" was built specifically for this reason. Nice, smart men who have been pummeled into submission, insecurity and inconfidence by wrong advice, abuse and their own goddamn conscience. Guys who are actually so disabled by their autophobia that instead of asking the girls they liked on a date, they would sit around and befriend them, and constantly think "Maybe she'll take notice of me, I'm a great guy inside". And goddamn if they ever do get a girlfriend, they pedestalize the **** out of her. 

I think most of these guys know they won't be the jock who got 3 zillion pussies in high school and college. But they are trying extremely hard to be the best of themselves. And if some you people can't appreciate that, too bad.

Of course there are gonna be people who take **** out of proportion, JUST LİKE EVERY GODDAMN THING IN THE UNIVERSE. But guess what, they aren't the rule, they are the exception.

And next time you see a Mr. Nice Guy, don't make fun of the guy. Think of him as an abused person. Guide him to light.

Edit: Oh and btw, when you try to make fun of a person's looks again, know that you are making fun of a person God created. Yeah, he may not be the hunkiest fellow, but hell, he isn't some lazy slob, he is trying to better himself.


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## Deejo

Lets not go here. 
I don't feel compelled to defend Athol Kay, but much like most of these discussions, people introduce points of fact that simply ... aren't.

Athol Kay's advice is primarily geared towards married couples, to help them remain happily married couples. The focus is on men striving to remain attractive, and desirable to their wives. Full stop. Anyone that wants to dissect the goal of his book or blog beyond that, is simply looking to pick a fight.

It isn't about being a pickup-artist or about dating. By his own admission, he is not Alpha, nor are MOST men on this site, Alpha vs. Beta is not a 'state'. It is a sliding scale. The terms are lifted from pickup artist material, as a simplistic way to clearly identify SPECIFIC types of behavior to which people, particularly women, respond favorably, or unfavorably.

Within the framework of this site, all of the examples are anecdotal. All of it. That does not mean it's all crap. There have been numerous studies, articles, books, and shows indicated and even discussed here that evidence exactly this stuff over and over. Some folks are going to run with it hook, line and sinker, some are going to agree with some concepts, and some are going to decry it as utter horsesh!t ... just like any controversial and emotional topic around here.

I do not for one moment believe that being more alpha means less of a chance that your wife will cheat.

Being a better man, and the best partner you can be doesn't mean that your wife or husband won't cheat. What it means is that your spouse knows damn well, what your response will be, should they make that choice and be discovered.





Faithful Wife said:


> That is what I had thought, but wasn't sure. The pic of him on his website is slightly better than that pic...but still pretty much the same.
> 
> The other thing about Athol's work is, I don't understand why he would claim to know anything about dating. He has been in a happy marriage for a very long time (ie: no real dating experience in the last 15 years)...yet has advice to give on how to be alpha with your dates? Rediculous.
> 
> If anyone wants to know what "real" alpha guys are like in the dating world, ask some women who are dating them.
> 
> (I only use the "alpha" label because I know others will understand what I mean...but I agree, it is a useless label).


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## Gaia

Uh you can tell that disfigured guy isnt a bum and is trying to improve himself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I think you guys are a bit wrong on this.
> 
> First of all, I don't believe that any man wanting to better is a bad thing. Yes, probably the guys who are reading these stuff from internet forums and books are doormats and Mr. Nice Guys etc. Actually "Seduction Community" was built specifically for this reason. Nice, smart men who have been pummeled into submission, insecurity and inconfidence by wrong advice, abuse and their own goddamn conscience. Guys who are actually so disabled by their autophobia that instead of asking the girls they liked on a date, they would sit around and befriend them, and constantly think "Maybe she'll take notice of me, I'm a great guy inside". And goddamn if they ever do get a girlfriend, they pedestalize the **** out of her.
> 
> I think most of these guys know they won't be the jock who got 3 zillion pussies in high school and college. But they are trying extremely hard to be the best of themselves. And if some you people can't appreciate that, too bad.
> 
> Of course there are gonna be people who take **** out of proportion, JUST LİKE EVERY GODDAMN THING IN THE UNIVERSE. But guess what, they aren't the rule, they are the exception.
> 
> And next time you see a Mr. Nice Guy, don't make fun of the guy. Think of him as an abused person. Guide him to light.


There is nothing wrong with wanting to better yourself. Getting physically healthy, mentally healthy, enjoying hobbies, learning a new language, getting an education, finding a passion are all things that both sexes should do for themselves. Most of the books are not about that though. It is about mind games, tricking, pretending and outright lying with the expectation that the partner will change their attitude towards you. You don't actually change at all, you just manipulate your partner to. 

As for taking pity on "Nice Guys", why? The great commonality among these "Nice Guys" is their contempt for women's non-sexual friendship. They are pissed off about being friendzoned and complain about the hours spent listening to women without being given sexual favors in return for their investment. Their anger is that their own deception didn't work as they had hoped. It's a stretch to expect women to be gentle with the egos of these men who only feigned friendship in order to get laid. 

I'll be happy to give these "abused" men guidance. Stop manipulating the world around you and work on your inner self. I can appreciate anybody who is trying to be the best of themselves. I don't however have any respect for those who manipulate others in relationships to achieve the desired outcome.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Faithful Wife said:


> That is what I had thought, but wasn't sure. The pic of him on his website is slightly better than that pic...but still pretty much the same.
> 
> The other thing about Athol's work is, I don't understand why he would claim to know anything about dating. He has been in a happy marriage for a very long time (ie: no real dating experience in the last 15 years)...yet has advice to give on how to be alpha with your dates? Rediculous.
> 
> If anyone wants to know what "real" alpha guys are like in the dating world, ask some women who are dating them.
> 
> (I only use the "alpha" label because I know others will understand what I mean...but I agree, it is a useless label).


You know what, I might not agree with what Athol has to say but picking on somebodies looks while hiding behind a computer screen is pretty low. Post your own picture. 

As for giving dating advice, I've been married for 19 years now and give advice about dating, being married, what works and what doesn't regardless of how my marriage is. Isn't that what this ENTIRE website is about? :scratchhead:


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## Faithful Wife

I didn't actually say anything about Athol's pic, did I? Where? I just said another pic on his website is better than the pic jaquen posted, and in neither sentence did I say anything that could be "picking on somebody's looks" did I? If I did, please show me.


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## Gaia

Ok I thought the guy with missing teeth was the one being made fun of.... Now im confused.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

Let's not steer the conversation away from the post. Adex works so hard to post misogynistic tripe and if we don't give him the attention he so deeply craves, he will post more threads. :crazy:


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## Gaia

Right......cause he just needs that daily dose of angry estrogen......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen

Therealbrighteyes said:


> As for taking pity on "Nice Guys", why? The great commonality among these "Nice Guys" is their contempt for women's non-sexual friendship. They are pissed off about being friendzoned and complain about the hours spent listening to women without being given sexual favors in return for their investment. Their anger is that their own deception didn't work as they had hoped. It's a stretch to expect women to be gentle with the egos of these men who only feigned friendship in order to get laid.


That's actually a very, very good point. I never once thought about, or considered the "Nice Guy" as a deceptive manipulator. 

Interesting.


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## Shadow_Nirvana

Therealbrighteyes said:


> As for taking pity on "Nice Guys", why? The great commonality among these "Nice Guys" is their contempt for women's non-sexual friendship. They are pissed off about being friendzoned and complain about the hours spent listening to women without being given sexual favors in return for their investment. Their anger is that their own deception didn't work as they had hoped. It's a stretch to expect women to be gentle with the egos of these men who only feigned friendship in order to get laid.


I don't think most have a general contempt towards women's non-sexual friendship. They want to be that girl's boyfriend. Okay, but they are not exactly comfortable just going to them and asking for a date. Why? Fear of rejection, fear of being misunderstood, fear of their own sexuality. So what do these guys do? "Hey, if am a friend to her, maybe she will see what a great personality I have and bang me do death!" This is a completely effed approach that brings frustration to the male and female. The male feels rejected anyway, and the female may understand that this is not a genuine friendship.

The whole alpha-beta approach and the two ladder theory that explains friendzone is basically the same. Alpha actions induce attraction, beta actions induce bonding. When you understand that, you understand how you weren't a great husband when you were basically just a doormat.


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## jaquen

Faithful Wife said:


> I didn't actually say anything about Athol's pic, did I? Where? I just said another pic on his website is better than the pic jaquen posted, and in neither sentence did I say anything that could be "picking on somebody's looks" did I? If I did, please show me.


Yes, I know you definitely weren't picking on Athol.

And for the record, neither was I. I just find it ironic that the man who is leading the married man "alpha" revolution, the man who is used most often to justify this perspective, is the quintessential visual stereotype for the kind of "beta/gamma" guys that many of his followers openly despise.

There is nothing wrong with what Athol looks like. It's just a little like finding out the Black Panther movement was started by a middle aged Jewish woman from Bensonhurst.


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## Faithful Wife

jaquen....have you read the NMMNG book? The whole thing lines out very specifically how NG's are not actually "nice". They are passive agressive manipulators with repressed anger issues who are very likely to cheat.


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## Shadow_Nirvana

Faithful Wife said:


> jaquen....have you read the NMMNG book? The whole thing lines out very specifically how NG's are not actually "nice". They are passive agressive manipulators with repressed anger issues who are very likely to cheat.


Yeah, they are disasters waiting to happen. I would know, I was one, unknowingly. How I defused myself, working on my issues, building my confidence so I could take on future issues without taking the passive aggressive stanve and looking at relations with a different view. But hell, I could have used the hand if somebody had been willing to work through my issues, it wouldn't have been so gruelling and I wouldn't have been cheated on by my girlfriend twice.(meaning I would have either addressed the issues in our relationship or I would have run away, my feet banging my ass with every step.)


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## opensesame

Surely the rule is that if any guy defines himself as _anything_ (nice guy, alpha, beta, whatever) he's onto a loser. 

Shouldn't you just define yourself as you? I define myself as me. Then again, I'm lucky in that I'm totally awesome.


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## SimplyAmorous

Gaia said:


> Ok I thought the guy with missing teeth was the one being made fun of.... Now im confused.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too Gaia!


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## Therealbrighteyes

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I don't think most have a general contempt towards women's non-sexual friendship. They want to be that girl's boyfriend.


You proved my point entirely.


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## Goldmember357

Adex said:


> I don't see it happening too much. In almost all these cheating wife threads on this forum, the guys posting about it mostly portray the relationship as them being too nice and her not appreciating it. In effect, their behavior has been too beta.
> 
> When the man takes charge and the lead in the relationship, she respects that and will think twice about cheating on her husband. I'm not saying that being alpha will always mean your wife will not cheat, but I'm saying that there is a much better chance she won't cheat on you. I'm also using the term alpha in its positive respects and am not referring to being abusive, arrogant, or violent towards her.
> 
> The irony is that the more you're the most caring or nicest husband to her, the higher the chance of her cheating.


Your argument is flawed

You act as if the man is "soooo" powerful as to stop people from being human.


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## Pandakiss

i dont think it matters if the guy is alpha, beta, gamma, sigma, or the other, if you married a damaged chick, she will cheat because she is now a predator. 

sometimes, maybe going for a beta, because they can be controlled more maybe...thats what i would do.

if you would like to up the alpha, maybe find a good person, or persona and maybe you see a few things you would like to be, or things that you dont like, sometimes seeing others doing things it can sway how we might/might not be precived.

when you hit jonny bravo, you should dial it back....bluto....you went to far. although i always had a thing for jonny bravo, if that was real life, i would never marry him. 

perhaps fred flintstone????



and to the guy who said his chick told him 2 alphas dont work in a relationship, because "you" cant be controlled...well good ridence to her, she told you everything you needed to know about her with that one sentence. she wanted to control you, so she could go out and be a predator, and serial cheat.


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## Goldmember357

I'm sorry to be blunt this entire belief is used to help individuals cope and deal with issues. Its to try and let them make "sense" of the world and individuals. However its too basic, too elementary and too flawed. 

I'm sorry but its as if human development and peoples own minds are ignored.

You cannot get it your way "by acting" more "alpha" that is such garbage. 

Don't be a door mat who marries an ex party girl **** and you wont have to worry so much. Sorry but that's true according to the data.


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## Cosmos




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## WyshIknew

jaquen said:


> "Hot" guys get laid more, because they're hot. This includes "hot" accountants who do dishes. "Hot" dudes who don't drink. "Hot" engineers who don't know jack about football. "Hot" actors who are in touch with their sensitive sides. "Hot" nerds who love to play WOW. "Hot" shy loners who still have trouble communicating. "Hot", genuinely nice guys. You'd be surprised how much of this alpha/beta/sigmaphigamma theory goes flying out the window when a guy is "hot".


Just to clarify, I did not intend to make fun of the guy with the missing teeth, I merely tried to (badly I know, blame it on the bottle of wine) highlight the point above that Jaquen made.

The missing teeth guy could be as alpha as he liked and would still find it difficult to 'pull' the women that the studly guy in the other pic can/does.

I would never make fun of someones looks, jeepers I'm no oil painting myself.



Gaia said:


> Ok I thought the guy with missing teeth was the one being made fun of.... Now im confused.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





SimplyAmorous said:


> Me too Gaia!


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## TiggyBlue

WyshIknew said:


> Just to clarify, I did not intend to make fun of the guy with the missing teeth, I merely tried to (badly I know, blame it on the bottle of wine) highlight the point above that Jaquen made.
> 
> The missing teeth guy could be as alpha as he liked and would still find it difficult to 'pull' the women that the studly guy in the other pic can/does.
> 
> I would never make fun of someones looks, jeepers I'm no oil painting myself.


Yh what I kind of took from your and jaquen's posts was someone becoming 'alpha' for themselves it doesn't matter how they look, they are confident within themselves and are doing it to enhance their own lives.
Some who is doing jerk 'alpha' to pull it does matter how they look because jerk 'alpha' are getting laid because of their looks not their personality and after hearing a few flying comments about how being alcoholic is a alpha trait ect, if you haven't got looks going for you then you ain't going to be pulling the ladies lol.


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## Shadow_Nirvana

I wasn't talking about the toothless guy's photo, I was talking about Athol Kay's. 

Yes, most people cannot be as hot as an underwear model. Some people aren't innately charismatic and confident as well. But you can be the best your limitations will allow. You can learn not to be a doormat or a "Nice Guy". And confidence does make you more attractive, believe it or not.

And about the whole "I'm alpha, I'm beta" stuff. Of course it's stupid . Yes you can judge your own actions and think about where you go wrong, but if you find yourself constantly talking about yourself, that's not confidence that's weird. That being said, it doesn't hurt to take a look at yourself if you aren't getting what you want in life.

There are a lot of different authors and different meanings to the words that are used. For example, beta might mean in Roiisy's blog the worst thing evah, in sociosexual hierarchy it ain't so bad, in fact it's superb, in MMSL book it means a different thing altogether. And the people gaining this knowledge are different also. For example, Unlike Adex, i don't think a wife acting the way he suggests is beta, it's a doormat. But that's different perspectives.

And the contempt of the women's non sexual friendship stuff. I have friends of opposite sex, I wanted to be more than friends with the girl who sort of friendzones me . She didn't. And that was okay, that didn't mean that I was gonnatry and guilt her or push her into going out with me. But that also didn't mean I wasn't frustrated that she wasn't interested in me. It took me some time to actually get rid of my frustration and open my eyes. If your take from all this is that I have a contempt for female's nonsexual friendship, then I have absolutely nothing more to say. I believe there are lots of other guys out there thinking like me, not like a manipulator.


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## Deejo

That's no underwear model. That's Captain America.


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## Shadow_Nirvana

Deejo said:


> That's no underwear model. That's Captain America.


Hah, okay then, all is fine. :smthumbup:


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## LearninAsWeGo

Deejo said:


> ...It isn't about being a pickup-artist or about dating. By his own admission, he is not Alpha, nor are MOST men on this site, Alpha vs. Beta is not a 'state'. It is a sliding scale...


Exactly.

If there's one thing to get from the "Primer" book that Kay wrote, it's how to read her cycle. It's critical.

I know tons of alpha guys who can pick up girls, lay them, but can't keep them (or decide not to out of frustration). Alpha works, but you need the beta game when appropriate. The female of almost any species wants alpha sperm for strong warrior babies and beta sperm for a reliable provided and nurturing. You have to be both, gentlemen. You have to be both. *Christian Grey, MD or MBA or Esq is today's ideal*. Trust me on that one if you like... or don't.

Money also helps a LOT.... women are absolute suckers for beauty... anything that can make them look smaller, prettier, etc. Their gender rivalry continues to amaze me.


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## WyshIknew

LearninAsWeGo said:


> Exactly.
> 
> If there's one thing to get from the "Primer" book that Kay wrote, it's how to read her cycle. It's critical.
> 
> I know tons of alpha guys who can pick up girls, lay them, but can't keep them (or decide not to out of frustration). Alpha works, but you need the beta game when appropriate. The female of almost any species wants alpha sperm for strong warrior babies and beta sperm for a reliable provided and nurturing. You have to be both, gentlemen. You have to be both. *Christian Grey, MD or MBA or Esq is today's ideal*. Trust me on that one if you like... or don't.
> 
> Money also helps a LOT.... women are absolute suckers for beauty... anything that can make them look smaller, prettier, etc. Their gender rivalry continues to amaze me.


Or in other words be the best man, lover, husband and father you can be. And work at that all the time.


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## Deejo

WyshIknew said:


> Or in other words be the best man, lover, husband and father you can be. And work at that all the time.


Yes. Else it would be challenging to expect those things from your partner, were you not practicing them yourself.


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## 2ntnuf

I'm really late to this. Just wanted to give my opinion.

I think being more confident in yourself and expressing that means there is less of a chance to be permanently harmed by your spouses behavior, whether that is cheating or not.

I don't think it lessens the chances of your spouse cheating. That is in them, not me.


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## mhg

Zig said:


> I'm in my 30s.
> 
> HS and college are the best examples because this is when girls/women have the most choosing power. They are young and the male/female gender ratio is almost equal. Later in life, men start to die off (men have riskier lifestyles and don't pay as much attention to their health as women) which means men slowly start to disappear and women have to settle for what they can get.
> 
> Did you know that some of the worst HIV outbreaks that occur in the US are in retirement homes where you literally have 2 or 3 women for every 1 man?
> 
> How would you and your girlfriends (pretend you're single) react if you just met a guy and he told you he didn't drink? Most women would say he's a wimp or probably gay.


Pardon?
I'm a wimp...or gay???
Jeez what planet are you on mate.
I don't drink simply because I like to be in control of myself.
And you men that advocate treating your wife as if she's not special, my god, you need a reality check.

I treat my girl as though she's the most precious thing on earth - because she is. She deserves to feel special and loved.
I cannot comprehend treating your wife as less than wonderful.
Alpha, beta, whatever.
I'm just a bloke that adores his wife and shows it.


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## Deejo

mhg said:


> I treat my girl as though she's the most precious thing on earth - because she is. She deserves to feel special and loved.
> I cannot comprehend treating your wife as less than wonderful.
> Alpha, beta, whatever.
> I'm just a bloke that adores his wife and shows it.


Yes she does ...
For exactly as long as she feels the same way about you.


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## Caribbean Man

mhg said:


> I treat my girl as though she's the most precious thing on earth - because she is. She deserves to feel special and loved.
> I cannot comprehend treating your wife as less than wonderful.
> Alpha, beta, whatever.
> I'm just a bloke that adores his wife and shows it.


You better thank your lucky stars that you are living on that planet where women respond in like manner when they are placed on a pedestal but their significant other.
Some guys are not that lucky, so they must be 
" children of a lesser God.."

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-saying-they-want-nice-guy-3.html#post1364629

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/65148-money-sex-my-wife.html

I treat my wife like a queen and she treats me like a king; _Because we both respect each other_. 
Not because I'm living on another planet.
There were times in the past I made wrong choices in women and put them on a pedestal,

AND SUFFERED BADLY ,AS A RESULT OF IT....
Yes?

P.S;
_I have been called " gay " by women, simply because I refused their sexual advances in my former workplace.
See, I was newly wed._


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## Adex

As the saying goes, don't put the p%ssy on the pedestal. When you do, bad things happen. I would say what mhg described is the exception.


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