# Just my opinion and observation about marriage in general....



## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

I am new here. Found this site while dealing with some post divorce issues, only one of which I have posted about. Have been reading some threads to get a feel for things. Something I have found, (and not just here, but other places on the web and in real life as well), is that often the person that initiated the divorce proceedings (yes, that would be me) is vilified unless they were cheated on or abused or something of that nature. Here's the thing. I wanted out of my marriage because I was not happy. I was married for 20+ years, and at least the last 12 years of it was not good for me for the most part. My ex always held a job, didn't abuse me, wasn't crazy, wasn't on drugs, didn't cheat on me. There were other issues of course, but none of the ones that seem to make a divorce seem justified to some people. I understand that marriage is supposed to be forever, they all have their ups and downs, and that you are supposed to be able to work through things. But that doesn't always happen. When most people, if not all, choose their life partner, they are really just making the best choice they know how to make based on life experience. They believe they are picking the right person for them. But then life happens. And it turns out that maybe they didn't, and you can't fix that. You can try to live with it, which I did for years. But there is nothing good about being in a relationship that you don't get what you need out of. And no amount of counseling can fix that, in my opinion. Divorce is hard. No one wants to have their marriage end that way. But being happy, healthy, and fulfilled is important too. There is so much more to a story than can be told here, and only one side of the story at that. Just something to think about...


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## minimix (Mar 12, 2013)

i can sympathise with your situation...i have had problems in my marriage which i have posted on before...but now my h and i have talked and talked ...i am still wanting to walk away...my feelings for my h have gone completely...nothing...i feel sad and hate to upset anyone but i can't help the fact that i have nothing inside for him anymore...
i have read many posts on this forum..i am here every day and i agree with you that unless there has been unacceptable behaviour (ie cheating/ abuse) then the general consensus is that you shouldn't walk away from your marriage and if i ended it i would be stereotyped as a 'walk-away wife'...even though it has taken me 10 years of daily unhappiness... being talked to like you are nothing and having to walk on eggshells the whole time to get to this point.....
i have not cheated....not interested in the slightest in getting into a new relationship...i always pick badly and seem to end up as a carer/mother and not a wife...so i am totally not interested in getting involved with anyone else...but i just sooo want out of this marriage....
now my h understands how i feel (all the other times we have talked over the 18 years we have been together he didn't realise what he was doing!!) he has completely changed....you wouldn't recognise him...he is up early.. sorting out the children...never loses his temper....never says a bad word...behaves impeccably .....which has confused me even more.... and now i feel i would be the one to blame if i ended the marriage...:scratchhead:


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

minimix,
I was where you are. My feelings had gone completely for my Ex H as well. We had actually discussed divorce years before, and I suggested counseling. He refused. Nothing changed. I stayed. We did not communicate well with each other at all. when I finally made the decision that I needed to move on and try to have a life I could be happy in, it was still very, very difficult to walk away. We discussed and fought about it for 2 years before I finally filed. During that time, my ex 'changed' to a degree as well, and even wanted to go to counseling. I went, but my heart wasn't in it. I think you just reach a point where you are done. He suddenly wanted to tell me how he much he loved me, and wanted to find ways to reconnect. Previously, in 20+ years, he had never done that. He went from rarely showing any emotion to being overly emotional. 
Now he is very bitter about the divorce, and I am the worse woman that ever lived in his eyes. any time we talk, which is rare but we do have children together, he wants to rehash everything and I refuse to do that anymore. He won't own any of the things the he did to contribute to our issues. And frankly, I don't care. I just don't want to have to deal with it anymore. 
I wish I had an easy answer for you. I can tell you that it's difficult, but now that I have done it, I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders. I am seeing someone new, and it's such a different relationship. I am in no way ready to marry again, and may never be. While walking away is a very hard thing to do, it was the best thing I could have done and only regret not doing it sooner. 
Let me know how things are going for you. I can soooo relate to your situation!


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

minimix said:


> ...unless there has been unacceptable behaviour (ie cheating/ abuse) then *the general consensus is that you shouldn't walk away from your marriage* and if i ended it i would be stereotyped as a 'walk-away wife'...


I think that many people believe you made a promise in front of God, so if you leave your marriage for any other reason, you have done something wrong.

For some people, you can be sexually neglected for decades and unloved, unfulfilled, disrespected and unhappy, but unless you are cheated on or beaten, you should stick it out. That attitude is basically what I experienced from "Christians", including my own mother.

I don't subscribe to that crap. Sometimes it just doesn't work, and life is just way too short to waste being unhappy with someone who doesn't treat you very well. 

Personally, I think the legal age for marriage should be increased to at least 25 yrs old so less people find themselves in this predicament. I signed that contract when I was very young, never realizing what my life would become.


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

I have advised young people in my family to not get married too young. Most don't listen. I'm not saying that's always the answer to not marrying the wrong person for you, but surely it would benefit anyone to be more mature and have more life experience prior to making that commitment. Regardless, it shouldn't be considered a bad thing to admit you made a mistake and be allowed to move on. I hear the word 'betrayed' applied frequently to a spouse that didn't want the divorce. I guess they mean by the broken promise to God??? Seems a bit harsh.
Maybe we should all just live in sin instead


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

itscomplicatedforsure:

You'll find PLENTY of like-minded individuals of both genders here at TAM! I've been here for over a year, and I've met MANY people who believe as you and I do...


you only have ONE LIFE and you're entitled to be happy....
you made your bed, now lie in it is bull-corn...
just because you made a decision at 20yo does NOT mean it's the right choice for you 20 years later...[decisions made at 20yo are usually based on wanting to have sex regularly and wanting to be perceived as an 'adult'...not exactly the most reliable indicators of long-term viability]
Keep looking around, you'll find us here! And WELCOME TO TAM!


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

It's ultimately your marriage, but I tend to agree with people who say you don't walk away from a marriage barring extreme circumstances. Marriage is a deep and life-long commitment. If you really, really don't want that noose around your neck, live together. You don't get the same tax benefits, but it's really not a marriage anyway if you're ready to cut loose when you decide it isn't fulfilling. 

I don't agree, though, that the ONLY good reasons for leaving would be abuse or cheating.


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## dsGrazzl3D (Apr 22, 2013)

itscomplicatedforsure said:


> My feelings had gone completely for my Ex H as well.
> We discussed and fought about it for 2 years before I finally filed. During that time, my ex 'changed' to a degree as well, and even wanted to go to counseling. I went, but my heart wasn't in it. _*SO YOU LIED*_
> 
> I think you just reach a point where you are done. He suddenly wanted to tell me how he much he loved me, and wanted to find ways to reconnect. Previously, in 20+ years, he had never done that. He went from rarely showing any emotion to being overly emotional. _*So you were also never really honest by what it sounds like b/c you let him think he was doing what you now wanted*_
> ...


Glad there are 2 people on here whom do not believe in marriage... What it sounds like you are saying to me... Over 20+ years and you walk away! I call that a crap *cowardly* move. 

Many people would fight and fight to get back to the reason you made a vow in the 1st place. You really souund like you were NEVER OPEN, were NEVER HONEST, and NEVER FULLY COMMUNICATED YOUR DESPAIR AND ANGER AT HUSBAND! So now you get off by thinking you did right by leaving him!?!? 

I hope you EX marries a hotter and MUCH younger woman! Sorry for my anger, but this thread has me AFK 4 now!


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

dsGrazzl3D,
How shocked should I be that there is an angry person yelling at me on a forum because someone else doesn't think the way they do. Yawn. Thanks for proving my point. If you think I am at all concerned what you think, think again. But you do sound very self righteous and bitter. Congrats!


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> itscomplicatedforsure:
> 
> You'll find PLENTY of like-minded individuals of both genders here at TAM! I've been here for over a year, and I've met MANY people who believe as you and I do...
> 
> ...


SlowlyGettingWiser,
Thanks for the welcome. Glad to find some like-minded people that I can talk to and not be berated by for choosing a happier life!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

No one has to justify their choice to divorce. I initiated mine and 3 years down the track it was the best thing to have done. 

There are people here that will tell you that you have no right to happiness, you married so you have to stay married till you die. Sorry but that type of thinking is so out of touch.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

dsGrazzl3D said:


> I hope you EX marries a hotter and MUCH younger woman! Sorry for my anger, but this thread has me AFK 4 now!


lol and they say women are b*tchy


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

itscomplicatedforsure said:


> I am new here. Found this site while dealing with some post divorce issues, only one of which I have posted about. Have been reading some threads to get a feel for things. Something I have found, (and not just here, but other places on the web and in real life as well), is that often the person that initiated the divorce proceedings (yes, that would be me) is vilified unless they were cheated on or abused or something of that nature. Here's the thing. I wanted out of my marriage because I was not happy. I was married for 20+ years, and at least the last 12 years of it was not good for me for the most part. My ex always held a job, didn't abuse me, wasn't crazy, wasn't on drugs, didn't cheat on me. There were other issues of course, but none of the ones that seem to make a divorce seem justified to some people. I understand that marriage is supposed to be forever, they all have their ups and downs, and that you are supposed to be able to work through things. But that doesn't always happen. When most people, if not all, choose their life partner, they are really just making the best choice they know how to make based on life experience. They believe they are picking the right person for them. But then life happens. And it turns out that maybe they didn't, and you can't fix that. You can try to live with it, which I did for years. But there is nothing good about being in a relationship that you don't get what you need out of. And no amount of counseling can fix that, in my opinion. Divorce is hard. No one wants to have their marriage end that way. But being happy, healthy, and fulfilled is important too. There is so much more to a story than can be told here, and only one side of the story at that. Just something to think about...


So now when you leave your husband, are you asking for alimony?


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## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

hey everyone,
Read this : The last word: He said he was leaving. She ignored him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

dsGrazzl3D said:


> Happiness in marriage is the goal. Marriage is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS going to be harder than being single. But for those of whom can work through it... TOTALLY worthy of the investment. I think marriage came from men, then God approved, gave blessing over it, and through many many times in the bible does give it depth beyond the narrow and hate filled femi~nazi view you seem to have.
> 
> *Yes you can be happy*, but don't except everybody else n*ot* to call you out when you want to hear about how morally and ethically correct you are... ESP. *WHEN YOU ARE WRONG!* I'm truly sorry that your marriage did not work, mostly for your husband... I did assign blame based on your words. I'm sure your husband should shoulder a lot of blame also... I hate to deal with blame, he did not come here and ask a question. It was you of whom posted "Something I have found, is that often the person that initiated the divorce proceedings (yes, that would be me) is vilified unless they were cheated on or abused or something of that nature."
> 
> ...


Chill out man and stop the yelling, if you are angry at life don't take it out on others.

Your POV could not be further from reality. The religious stuff is of no interest to me what so ever, totally irrelevant. 

You are an angry man, might be a good move to turn off your computer and take a walk.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

yours4ever said:


> hey everyone,
> Read this : The last word: He said he was leaving. She ignored him.


Love it.. very profound.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

yours4ever said:


> hey everyone,
> Read this : The last word: He said he was leaving. She ignored him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good read. God must have whispered instructions on this wonderful lady's ears, which enabled her to win back her hubby without even having any arguments or withholding anything whatsoever. To not get suckered into a pointless argument, that's very difficult. Thumbs up. Thank you Yours4Ever. :smthumbup:


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

dsGrazzl3D said:


> Glad there are 2 people on here whom do not believe in marriage... What it sounds like you are saying to me... Over 20+ years and you walk away! I call that a crap *cowardly* move.
> 
> Many people would fight and fight to get back to the reason you made a vow in the 1st place. You really souund like you were NEVER OPEN, were NEVER HONEST, and NEVER FULLY COMMUNICATED YOUR DESPAIR AND ANGER AT HUSBAND! So now you get off by thinking you did right by leaving him!?!?
> 
> I hope you EX marries a hotter and MUCH younger woman! Sorry for my anger, but this thread has me AFK 4 now!


We need to be respectful... I may not be in the same boat as the OP, Married 18+ years. My wife and I still communicate on an intimate level when we are not dealing with the day to day living. 

I respect her decision to at least get a D rather than cheat and be the 'cake eater' we see so often talked about on TAM. 

So am I angry about toward the OP? No. Do I think the OP is wicked for calling it quits? No. We don't know the full story. 

I am not in this category, so I won't stay subscribed to your thread. I simply just want to make sure we are not being disrespectful of others in the grown up decisions they make. And, of course cheating would not have been a grown up decision. 

Take Care.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

dsGrazzl3D said:


> .......
> 
> *Yes you can be happy*, but don't except everybody else n*ot* to call you out when you want to hear about how morally and ethically correct you are... ESP. *WHEN YOU ARE WRONG!* I'm truly sorry that your marriage did not work, mostly for your husband... I did assign blame based on your words. I'm sure your husband should shoulder a lot of blame also... I hate to deal with blame, he did not come here and ask a question. *It was you of whom posted "Something I have found, is that often the person that initiated the divorce proceedings (yes, that would be me) is vilified unless they were cheated on or abused or something of that nature."
> *
> ..




And no it was not me that posted the bolded. Hope you have settled down a bit now.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

Dear itscomplicated, being happy and healthy is the goal. Actually, is it not for this that we get married? To live "HAPPILY ever after?" Unfortunately, for many the "happily" is gone, and they remained with the "ever after". Still, they stick in there, because they took a vow. I call Bs on this one, sorry.

I believe any marriage is worth trying saving, as long as there is still any love left. As long as the marriage can bring you happiness- to both of you. If there is nothing left, if walking away and moving on is what you truly want, then by all means you should do so. I applaud you for being honest and not cheating on your spouse.

Yes, you have one life to live, and that is meant to be happy. I don't care if it sounds selfish to some who believe that life is meant to stick to a vow, "imprisoned" and miserable forever- either happy with THAT person, or not happy at all, what the hell..lol. And not to forget, if you stop loving your spouse, you should give them the chance to find someone else who will. Why waste away precious years of your life and theirs?

I see where you're coming from about the "judgement". It is because this type of mentality, often found, that I rarely post. If something doesn't feel good, don't give it focus. However this resonated with my belief.
Marriage is not a life time prison. It's not a string of obligations, compromises, and frustrations. It is a mean through which we can achieve happiness- if we don't, the gate is open. We just have to dare to step out..


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Like others have said,we're given one life that we know of and no one else gets to choose how we live it.
For some people marriage starts out with the goal of "forever" then something happens along the way to forever.It doesn't even have to be anyone's fault.
People grow and change,it's the natural course of life.The people who were right for you when you were 25 may not be the people who are right for you when you're 35.You may not be right for them either.No amount of effort or counseling is going to change that.

The only way I could have stayed married was if I turned a blind eye,stayed the exact same person I was when I was 19-20 years old,and didn't mind being treated as nothing but arm candy. 

And to the angry dude,chill man.It's just the internet.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

itscomplicatedforsure said:


> But there is nothing good about being in a relationship that you don't get what you need out of. And no amount of counseling can fix that, in my opinion.


I have to say that these two sentences bother me. Whether you intended to say it or not, they scream quit and leave if things are not perfect. That counseling and working on it can't fix things, so if they are not good, they cannot get better and don't bother to try.

I disagree with this idea. I recognize that sometimes divorce is the best route. But without trying, it is a the lazy way


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Holland said:


> No one has to justify their choice to divorce. I initiated mine and 3 years down the track it was the best thing to have done.
> 
> There are people here that will tell you that you have no right to happiness, you married so you have to stay married till you die. Sorry but that type of thinking is so out of touch.


I agree. Some marriages should be put to sleep to end the suffering while others could use a shot of vitamins to bring life back into it. 

One personal experience was when a good buddy of mine was in the process of divorce due to his ex's multiple EA and PA with multiple men. A co-worker(who is a born again Christian) tried to counsel him into forgiving his wife and not divorcing her because that was God's plan for his marriage. My buddy literally said "With all due respect, F that i'm done with her" He remarried two years later to a great woman who loves his kids and loves him. I don't think God wants us to be a miserable for the rest of out lives.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I have to say that these two sentences bother me. Whether you intended to say it or not, they scream quit and leave if things are not perfect. That counseling and working on it can't fix things, so if they are not good, they cannot get better and don't bother to try.
> 
> I disagree with this idea. I recognize that sometimes divorce is the best route. But without trying, it is a the lazy way


But some behaviors or actions are not worth trying to fix. NPD, BPD, alcholism, abuse, assault, etc are perfectly good reasons to end a marriage without trying.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Since some people are so concerned with vows, perhaps vows should be amended to include not treating your spouse like cr&p, this way when you do and your spouse leaves you can't claim they're the only ones that didn't honor their commitment. Commitment to some means remaining married and nothing more, in my view that's cowardly because you don't have to put forth any effort at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Sanity said:


> I agree. Some marriages should be put to sleep to end the suffering while others could use a shot of vitamins to bring life back into it.
> 
> One personal experience was when a good buddy of mine was in the process of divorce due to his ex's multiple EA and PA with multiple men. A co-worker(who is a born again Christian) tried to counsel him into forgiving his wife and not divorcing her because that was God's plan for his marriage. My buddy literally said "With all due respect, F that i'm done with her" He remarried two years later to a great woman who loves his kids and loves him. I don't think God wants us to be a miserable for the rest of out lives.



Ahh yes, God is the ultimate tool to behave any way you want and then demand forgiveness. If your want to honor you God then treat your spouse well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

IMO this is thread about observations about divorce, not marriage.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sanity said:


> But some behaviors or actions are not worth trying to fix. NPD, BPD, alcholism, abuse, assault, etc are perfectly good reasons to end a marriage without trying.


Perhaps, though figuring out if that is the case with some of these without working on the marriage, including counseling, can be difficult. Further, my observation is that these behaviors don't just start full-bore one day. They start small and grow. Working on heading these off may be required. 

Again, the language suggests that if things are not great, just end it. I don't know if that was the intended message, but felt the need to clarify.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I can see both sides of the argument here and really do believe the OP did her husband a major favor. It would be very sad if he stayed married to someone who clearly did not want to be with him. So kudos for setting himself and yourself free.

Now, I also buy into that notion of "buyers" and "renters." Some people simply do not take marriages or relationships as seriously as other people. For some people, marriage is a disposable thing when it no longer meets their needs, or when they get bored. Some people go into it thinking that no matter what, they will stick it out because their love and relationship is strong. The trick is finding the person who has your view.

I personally have been married, and divorced. And posts like this remind me of why getting married again in some future is not something I think I would consider again. Sometimes, one person is in it for the long haul, they love, and their partner simply doesn't feel that way. It's a massive fundamental difference. 

No, thanks. 

People are fickle and can change quickly. 

But I firmly believe: OP and anyone who opts out of a marriage has seriously done their spouse/partner a major favor.

There is no point in wasting life/years with someone who does not want to be with you or has a totally different concept of what marriage/relationships are. 

It's a win-win for everyone.


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## dsGrazzl3D (Apr 22, 2013)

Holland said:


> And no it was not me that posted the bolded. Hope you have settled down a bit now.


Yeah. I did know that you did not say this, but I was pointing out the OP started this thread stating opinion to which I (obviously ) found much offense. 
I think most posters here are seeking help. I think being dismissive and not dealing with honesty in a postmortem discussion about marriage, is VERY dis-respective!

I do understand that my religious beliefs of marriage are mine. Yet my religion is not the only religion of which holds marriage as a special and sacred relationship. Even if just looking at a legal relationship, marriage in general is about making known how exclusive and special the two people find their relationship. Marriage has changed throughout the years. Marriage in the last few decades is voluntary. If you do not want to be married, fine. I accept people regardless of their status. 

I find OP and first responder trying to justify up and leaving as a positive thing very upsetting in a place that most are doing the opposite. I also did read that they stated they tried... But if you keep reading, they seem to contradict these efforts in the same sentence!?!? That is one of the reasons I found SO VERY OFFENSIVE.

Yeah I can be 81tch*y! The way I figure, if women can do this to guys (Male bashing), then why is it so bad for me to come here and support the ex-husbands unheard voice. OP even stated she did not understand his anger towards her... 

I hope you understand I can take what I dish out. You can go through all of my posts and tell me if you think I'm an angry guy. I am not angry hardly at all in real life... 
But I will:


> not apologize for being upset at what boils down to you degrading marriage in general.
> It is sad when ANY married couple calls it quiets. *I will never stop defending marriage as an institution!!!!*


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I absolutely believe you can marry the wrong person and nothing you do, or they do, can make a marriage between two wrong people right.

I'm sorry you guys went through this. 12 years is a LONG time to be unhappy in a marriage.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dsGrazzl3D said:


> Glad there are 2 people on here whom do not believe in marriage... What it sounds like you are saying to me... Over 20+ years and you walk away! I call that a crap *cowardly* move.
> 
> Many people would fight and fight to get back to the reason you made a vow in the 1st place. You really souund like you were NEVER OPEN, were NEVER HONEST, and NEVER FULLY COMMUNICATED YOUR DESPAIR AND ANGER AT HUSBAND! So now you get off by thinking you did right by leaving him!?!?
> 
> I hope you EX marries a hotter and MUCH younger woman! Sorry for my anger, but this thread has me AFK 4 now!


What a hateful post to direct toward somebody whom you don't know. Were you privy to the two decades this woman had with her husband? Do you know the private hell she might have been in during the 12 or so years she states she was unhappy? How do you know this man was a spouse even worth staying with? Who are you to judge her, especially when you're coming from such a hateful, uncompassionate place?


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## dsGrazzl3D (Apr 22, 2013)

jaquen said:


> What a hateful post to direct toward somebody whom you don't know. Who are you to judge her, especially when you're coming from such a hateful, uncompassionate place?


PLEASE see my #3 (more calm) response (*above your reply*)!?!? 
Hey forums are about opinions... OP and all should welcome opinions, I do even if I do not agree with them. Again don't dish out what you can not take... 
Fire away at me all you want, *`still won't EVER apologize for taking a stand for marriage!*


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

dsGrazzl3D said:


> *`still won't EVER apologize for taking a stand for marriage!*


Well will you at least apologize for being an absolute psycho? :rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

My husband and I are happy and I don't see us being unhappy...

But if our marriage ever got to a point that I felt I either got to be married, or I got to be happy

I'd choose to be happy
My life is much too short to spend it miserable because I vowed something 10/20/30 years ago
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Surely it depends whether the marriage is a religious one or not? And the terms - whether explicit or implicit.

For Christians, entering into a Christian marriage should be regarded as very serious and lifelong commitment - certainly for Catholics like me. It should not be undertaken at all lightly.

Non-religious marriages, I suggest, do not necessarily imply the same level of commitment. After all the existence of divorce as a possibility implies that it is not necessarily a lifelong commitment.

What about annulments, you might ask? Oh please don't - I am not a canon lawyer!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

tryingtobebetter said:


> Surely it depends whether the marriage is a religious one or not? And the terms - whether explicit or implicit.
> 
> For Christians, entering into a Christian marriage should be regarded as very serious and lifelong commitment - certainly for Catholics like me. It should not be undertaken at all lightly.
> 
> ...


Rubbish!

Mine was not a religious marriage and I put in a monumental effort to keep it going. Us heathens are every bit as good as the next person, we don't just give up because we don't follow a God. 
Conversely I know plenty of religious folk who have divorce including my parents and one of my siblings.

Sadly I also know of religious people that stay in untenable marriages because of their religion.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

tryingtobebetter said:


> For Christians, entering into a Christian marriage should be regarded as very serious and lifelong commitment - certainly for Catholics like me. It should not be undertaken at all lightly.


Except divorce rates are just as high among professed Christians as it is in the greater population.

- Signed a Christian


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> I can see both sides of the argument here and really do believe the OP did her husband a major favor. *It would be very sad if he stayed married to someone who clearly did not want to be with him. So kudos for setting himself and yourself free*.
> 
> Now, I also buy into that notion of "buyers" and "renters." *Some people simply do not take marriages or relationships as seriously as other people. For some people, marriage is a disposable thing when it no longer meets their needs, or when they get bored. Some people go into it thinking that no matter what, they will stick it out because their love and relationship is strong. The trick is finding the person who has your view.*
> 
> ...


 ... with every word here... I am someone coming from an Older fashioned view point.... I DO take those vows very seriously... BUT.. I would never stay - IF my happiness came to a crawl... if my husband started neglecting my needs...(and I do FEEL we have EMOTIONAL and SEXUAL *needs*)....or if he wanted out.... I am not into being a burden...someone's second best... while they are miserable desiring to jump the fence..... staying for vows alone is COLD, empty... I need to FEEL the intimacy with my Spouse... or if we've fallen off the wagon... to work to get back on....

When the  has grown cold - has flown elsewhere....I'm all for reviving - but darn it....
*it will always take 2*...if one is not willing... then he/she has tied your hands... this makes for co-dependents ... Mr Nice Guys not getting any sex....not into this sort of lopsided pain & suffering.... I am not an unconditional Lover.... I would have to get out! 

I've never been one to believe that we are UNtouched by our spouses attitudes/ behaviors towards us....to suggest this doesn't affect us....or shouldn't.... that we can so easily pull ourselves up living in the same house..and go on for vows...feeling like we're in a prison cell....If one CAN do this.... I say these people have learned to NUMB themselves to such a degree or found other hobbies to fill the void while basically *detaching* from their partner... Healthy... ABSOLUTELY NOT... only grounds for building a "resentment wall"... with each brick our happiness slowly dies........ and the children will FEEL this in the home....and think to themselves... if this is what marriage is all about... I don't want it !!! 

A happy home = a family where Mom & dad are United...PLayful... Laughter going forth...



jaquen said:


> I absolutely believe you can marry the wrong person and nothing you do, or they do, can make a marriage between two wrong people right.
> 
> I'm sorry you guys went through this. 12 years is a LONG time to be unhappy in a marriage.


 My father & Mother married at age 18... He was more stable than her....his goals, dreams, beliefs never changed, he was the more mature but seemed to be blinded by lust ....besides this - he seemed to have his head on straight....though she never did....

She wasn't really in love with him...Naive....just wanted her Mother to get off her back about having sex... what she REALLY wanted was to go to college...be a free spirit .... she loved the city, he loved the country....their differences destroyed them...they lasted 9 yrs, I remember the fights.......she felt like a caged bird....He wanted more sex..... ironically her best friend and my dad WERE a perfect match & they married days / a week (?) after their divorce... still going Strong, very much in love... Compatibility is HUGE... 



> *Tulsy said: Personally, I think the legal age for marriage should be increased to at least 25 yrs old so less people find themselves in this predicament.* I signed that contract when I was very young, never realizing what my life would become.


I don't agree such laws should be enacted ..... Maturity is not set by any specific age...we are all individuals.. .some are more mature at 18 than others at age 35...

I'll agree too many young people are blown by the wind......they want to DO their own thing, learn by their OWN mistakes..... they push consequences aside & don't listen to their elders or wise advice....they rebuff....but still...this depends on the individual. 

My husband & myself always counted the cost of everything we set our hands to in our younger years...we weren't partiers, we saved our money, worked hard...we waited to have sex...we had specific dreams & goals...the same ones WE had at age 18... are the same things we would do all over again... .my husband never changed... and neither did I ...except in some really GOOD ways...like loosening up sexually. 

Maybe we are just really RARE... but I wanted to marry Young...be young parents...so we could grow with our children, our family....I had no desire to play the field with a variety of partners trying to find myself... I already had a burning desire of what I wanted. 



dsGrazzl3D said:


> *Happiness in marriage is the goal. Marriage is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS going to be harder than being single.*


 I wouldn't enjoy being single..just as you say ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS in regards to being single...

I say I have NEVER NEVER NEVER felt this way. I love and thrive on having a partner to share my life with....having someone to wake up to every morning, hold me at night....to cry on his shoulder.. to listen to my day..and me listen to his.. I *love* *love* love being Married... 

But people have to KNOW themselves... deeply what they want out of life, discover their passions...also being *"self aware"*to your own faults when joined with a partner, to work that out... being humble to admit when you mess up....not holding on to grudges, stubborness....meet your partner half way....compromise...not falling into silent treatments, being transparent in communication......lots of ...and weeding out any seed of resentment...early on. 

I feel loving and Being loved - is the greatest Gift on earth if we can find that compatible spouse who compliments our personality and shares the same vision, dreams , goals...and again...KNOWS thyself...

I , too , carry a torch for Marriage....and all of it's beautiful benefits....but it's not for everyone!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

A thought... 

If one spouse is unhappy, the other probably is as well. But there are cases in which one is unhappy and the other is happy.

I wonder about staying in a marriage for years upon years, when a person is unhappy with the marriage.

Why do people do this? If you (general "you") stay in an unhappy marriage, what's the point? Why go through that? Why not set a time limit, say 6 months to a year. If things are not significantly better move on. Don't keep another person tied to you when you are unhappy.

I read some study about people who report themselves to be unhappy in their marriage. When the researchers checked back with the unhappy couples 5 years later, 85% said that they were not happy in their marriage. If this is the case, then it seems like working on the marriage is well worth the effort.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Holland said:


> Rubbish!
> 
> Mine was not a religious marriage and I put in a monumental effort to keep it going. Us heathens are every bit as good as the next person, we don't just give up because we don't follow a God.
> Conversely I know plenty of religious folk who have divorce including my parents and one of my siblings.
> ...


I think you are reading lots of things into my post which are just not there. Nothing I wrote was intended to imply that Christians are necessarily better than others, though they are called to live their lives according to Christian values.

Regarding the section of my post you highlighted, if non-religious marriages (by which I mean civil marriages) required the same degree of commitment as Catholic marriages, divorce would be illegal.

I worry I am not finding the right words.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Except divorce rates are just as high among professed Christians as it is in the greater population.
> 
> - Signed a Christian


Absolutely. But what does that tell us?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

That divorce is trendy! (lol) And very commonplace.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ironically her best friend and my dad WERE a perfect match & they married days / a week (?) after their divorce... still going Strong, very much in love... Compatibility is HUGE...


I know you have posted about your parents before on TAM and was wondering, was there any bad blood between your mom and her best-friend after this went down? Are they still best friends today? Curious!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> I know you have posted about your parents before on TAM and was wondering, was there any bad blood between your mom and her best-friend after this went down? Are they still best friends today? Curious!


The situation was terribly strange... One of a kind! 

Step Mom & her husband grew up with My Mom & My Dad...in fact Step MOM's husband was ALSO my DAD's best friend ....I have pics of them on their bikes in their teens! 

My mother was never THAT into my dad... my Dad was always fighting for more SEX, high Test man/ antsy... and well, probably why he wanted to get married - (do it right- back in the 60's)...

My Step Mom (so I learned yrs ago by her opening up ) told me she ALWAYS wanted my father...the whole time she was with her BF/ husband....... but he never gave her a look.... so when she learned of the DRAMA with my parents.......yeah...she made herself THERE for him....(we all lived in a Trailer Court my Grandparents owned)... I made mudd pies with their daughter, she was one of my best friends! 

Anyway...this is how it played out... My MOM felt bad for my dad (she knew she was a horrible wife neglecting his needs)....*she even told him to GO TO HER!! *.... Yep... I don't even know if I would call it cheating as it was as OPEN as Open could be!!! (so no bad blood or jealousy there - My Mom wanted out).... No lying going on at all. 

But there was still another spouse in this MESS.....

Step Mom's husband was FURIOUS! (I wonder how close my dad came to getting hurt)....I remember going to stay at their house before this got too hot & heavy....and He was beating HER up.... I was afraid of him. 

After the divorce...He tried to go after my Mother....she had no interest in him at all. Crazy web this bunch wove...

No, not friends... my Mom messed herself up so bad after this divorce...then ran off with an Alcoholic to another state... 

Though I am going to say nothing would have stopped this Love affair...some things are just too strong... Step Mom NEVER my favorite person (especially back then) but today... I thank God for her, the way she has stood by my dad (He has a lot of health issues).. he couldn't ask for a more loving, faithful , dedicated wonderful woman by his side, she near worships him. She had me balling in the hospital room once when he was getting surgery the way she talked about him... 

I KNEW he did the right thing in marrying her. 

What came out of that sorted MESS... .ME....thanks to that short walk in complete marital incompatibility...


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

There are many posts I would like to respond to, but to simplify things I will try to sum it all up in one.
Since I posted this, in this thread I have been accused of being a liar, lazy, not honest, cowardly, 'never open', non-communicative, of degrading marriage, and likely plenty of other things that I have missed putting in this reply. I was also mis-quoted when my biggest hater here said "OP even stated she did not understand his anger towards her"....(I didn't say that). Whatever, I can take it. BUT, it is amusing to me that anyone who does not know one thing about me, my life, or my marriage - other than what I posted- would think they can know any of those things. I am not against marriage or relationships. Mine just did not work. I am not going to go into any greater detail about anything to defend myself about my reasons for "walking away" from an unhappy marriage or the things I did to try to make it work. I feel no need to do so. Having said all that, it's also good to know there ARE people on here that are not judgmental. 
Oh, and for EleGirl, not sure where the alimony question came from, but I'm pretty sure it was just an effort at being sarcastic. But no, I didn't ask for alimony, didn't discuss it at all during the divorce proceedings. I took care of myself before and during my marriage, I sure as hell can take care of myself now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

itscomplicatedforsure said:


> Oh, and for EleGirl, not sure where the alimony question came from, but I'm pretty sure it was just an effort at being sarcastic. But no, I didn't ask for alimony, didn't discuss it at all during the divorce proceedings. I took care of myself before and during my marriage, I sure as hell can take care of myself now.


From reading your OP on this thread, you were putting out there a topic to discuss in a general sense. The topic is not you or your marriage in particular but instead marriage and divorce in the case where there are no big problems in the marriage.. the major problem is that one spouse is not happy for years, perhaps over a decade.

No, the alimony question was not an effort at being sarcastic. It was a legitimate question. 

There are apparently a good number of women who stay in marriages in which they are unhappy and their husbands are basically good husbands. But for whatever reason the wife has been unhappy for a long time. Then once they hit the magic 20 years of marriage anniversary the wife goes after lifelong alimony. 

I’ve seen this played out with people I know and in divorces I’ve worked on…. Where the lower earning spouse hangs on long enough to have a long-term marriage so that they can get life-long or very long term alimony. 

I understand why we have alimony. It’s needed and fair in some cases. But in a case like the one I describe it think it’s immoral.. immoral for a person to hang around in situation that they are unhappy in with the intent to leave once they can collect alimony. It essentially turns their ex into a slave who is forced to support them.

In a recent case I worked with, the stbxw kept making mean spirited remarks about how her husband needed to just move on like she did. And she kept bragging about how independent she was. Well, it’s a bit hard to move on when a person is forced to spend 1/3 to ½ of their working life supporting the ‘independent ex who has moved on’. Exactly how independent is someone who is forcing another person to support them?


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

I don't disagree that in the cases you addressed alimony is unfair, and I don't believe that someone is independent and have moved on if they are forcing someone else to support them. That doesn't apply to my situation. I never said the only thing wrong with the marriage was that I wasn't happy, and I never said that he was a 'good husband'. There was plenty of blame to pass around. My point really was that the expectation of some people that you stay in a marriage when it doesn't work is unrealistic. And that sometimes the decisions that you make when you are young aren't the best ones, even though you think they are at the time. People grow and change through life experiences. It wasn't my expectation when I got married that I would want to end it someday. I wanted the happily ever after that most people do. It just didn't happen.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

itscomplicatedforsure said:


> I never said the only thing wrong with the marriage was that I wasn't happy, and I never said that he was a 'good husband'. There was plenty of blame to pass around. My point really was that the expectation of some people that you stay in a marriage when it doesn't work is unrealistic. And that sometimes the decisions that you make when you are young aren't the best ones, even though you think they are at the time. People grow and change through life experiences. It wasn't my expectation when I got married that I would want to end it someday. I wanted the happily ever after that most people do. It just didn't happen.


There are really only a few things that you have shared about your marriage 1) you were not happy and 2) there were no major problems, 3) like most marriages neither of you were perfect and there was enough blame to go around. 

The premise of your OP was that a lot of people seem to believe that there is no justification for leaving a marriage like yours.

That’s all we, your readers, have to go on. 

You do not need to justify to anyone why you wanted out of your marriage. It’s your life, your decision.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Step Mom & her husband grew up with My Mom & My Dad...in fact Step MOM's husband was ALSO my DAD's best friend ....I have pics of them on their bikes in their teens!
> 
> After the divorce...He tried to go after my Mother....she had no interest in him at all. Crazy web this bunch wove...


Oh wow! It's like a soap opera! And the circumstances were bizarre. LOL. Thanks for sharing, Simply. I am glad to hear it all worked out.



itscomplicatedforsure said:


> Whatever, I can take it. BUT, it is amusing to me that anyone who does not know one thing about me, my life, or my marriage - other than what I posted- would think they can know any of those things.


Most TAM posters don't mean to offend. The thing is, this is an open forum website, so you will encounter all kinds of opinions when you make a post and tell your story. Some will agree with you, some won't. That is the beauty of open forums. 



itscomplicatedforsure said:


> It wasn't my expectation when I got married that I would want to end it someday. I wanted the happily ever after that most people do. It just didn't happen.


Most people feel this way. It's rare the person who goes into marriage thinking they will divorce.



EleGirl said:


> There are apparently a good number of women who stay in marriages in which they are unhappy and their husbands are basically good husbands. But for whatever reason the wife has been unhappy for a long time. Then once they hit the magic 20 years of marriage anniversary the wife goes after lifelong alimony.


My mother's friend did this. Military wife and knew that if she stayed married X amount of years, she'd get half of his pension, etc. So she waited. Then divorced him.  It was awful. That has got to be the worst feeling ever (for the one who is divorced, without a clue). I think it always sucks more for the person who didn't want it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I wonder sometimes why a person who knows they think of marriage as a throw-away institution would bother to do all the work that comes with getting married. It seems disingenuous. 

What is the attraction for those who think this way? Money? Prestige based upon the societal status of the partner? The idea that there is a steady supply of sex?

Just trying to understand without attacking anyone's beliefs.

Edit: I ask because if a person is looking for companionship and the love of one special person for the rest of their life, they would be much more careful who they choose. Yes, all the other things are important in choosing a partner for marriage, but not as important as that special someone. I keep thinking that sometimes we, including me in my first marriage, are placing something less important higher on our checklist for suitable mates. 

People are most important in my mind. When we hurt them, it has a life-long effect. I bet even the ones who believe that marriage is a throw-away institution would agree. Maybe that's why you believe in throw-away marriages? You've been hurt terribly in other relationships and it's changed your beliefs.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

itscomplicatedforsure said:


> I am new here. Found this site while dealing with some post divorce issues, only one of which I have posted about. Have been reading some threads to get a feel for things. Something I have found, (and not just here, but other places on the web and in real life as well), is that often the person that initiated the divorce proceedings (yes, that would be me) is vilified unless they were cheated on or abused or something of that nature. Here's the thing. I wanted out of my marriage because I was not happy. I was married for 20+ years, and at least the last 12 years of it was not good for me for the most part. My ex always held a job, didn't abuse me, wasn't crazy, wasn't on drugs, didn't cheat on me. There were other issues of course, but none of the ones that seem to make a divorce seem justified to some people. I understand that marriage is supposed to be forever, they all have their ups and downs, and that you are supposed to be able to work through things. But that doesn't always happen. When most people, if not all, choose their life partner, they are really just making the best choice they know how to make based on life experience. They believe they are picking the right person for them. But then life happens. And it turns out that maybe they didn't, and you can't fix that. You can try to live with it, which I did for years. But there is nothing good about being in a relationship that you don't get what you need out of. And no amount of counseling can fix that, in my opinion. Divorce is hard. No one wants to have their marriage end that way. But being happy, healthy, and fulfilled is important too. There is so much more to a story than can be told here, and only one side of the story at that. Just something to think about...


ICFS, I don't think anyone has adequately answered your original question, so let me give it a shot.

The reason some may vilify you, especially in forums such as TAM and other, is because we inject our personal experiences into your situation. 

Like myself, many here were committed partners and loved our spouses with everything we had. Unfortunately, our partners did not feel the same way and made the decision to divorce. This decision only takes one party to make. The other must face this reality even though it is not what they want.

Maybe we were done a favor, as some here suggest, maybe not. Only time will tell. It would be naive, however, to expect a spouse left behind to know this and accept this until they have fully healed.

What you have heard from most (not all) of the posters on this thread is their feelings concerning their relationships, past and present. These are the emotions of both sides of divorce. It is an ugly proposition for all involved.

You have your reasons for the decision to divorce and you have every right to exercise your right in your pursuit of happiness; just as us on the other side of the equation have reasons and a right to respectfully disagree.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

dsGrazzl3D said:


> Yeah. I did know that you did not say this, but I was pointing out the OP started this thread stating opinion to which I (obviously ) found much offense.
> I think most posters here are seeking help. I think being dismissive and not dealing with honesty in a postmortem discussion about marriage, is VERY dis-respective!
> 
> I do understand that my religious beliefs of marriage are mine. Yet my religion is not the only religion of which holds marriage as a special and sacred relationship. Even if just looking at a legal relationship, marriage in general is about making known how exclusive and special the two people find their relationship. Marriage has changed throughout the years. Marriage in the last few decades is voluntary. If you do not want to be married, fine. I accept people regardless of their status.
> ...


Mr. dsGrazzl3D,

It is always nice to see a brother in Christ here. I share many of your views on marriage.

I'd remind you that, as Christians, we are called to live like Christ. We can disagree with the opinions of others here without being offensive or aggressive. 

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. I know you recognize these.

Peace!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I wonder sometimes why a person who knows they think of marriage as a throw-away institution would bother to do all the work that comes with getting married. It seems disingenuous.
> 
> What is the attraction for those who think this way? Money? Prestige based upon the societal status of the partner? The idea that there is a steady supply of sex?
> 
> ...


I don’t think that most people go into marriage thinking that their particular marriage is throw away. 

But sometimes things in their marriage turn out to be something that they cannot live with; abuse and cheating being among that top two issues. But then there are the type of marriages in which a person is just not happy.

In the case of marriages that are between basically good people (not perfect people ‘cause they do not exist), we see a lot of divorces in this are too. When a person is profoundly unhappy such a marriage.

It’s a lot harder to determine if the issue is that the unhappy person is just an unhappy person. If this is the case they will be unhappy no matter who they are married to and no matter how hard their spouse works to meet their needs. They are just unhappy and looking for someone to blame it on. So the marriage and their spouse becomes the target. I’ve seen a lot of marriages end due to one or both spouse just being unhappy people. They fair no better on their own or in their future relationships. 

There are of course also the cases of a marriage in which a person just will not even try to meet their spouse’s needs. It’s sadly pretty common. Is not being willing to meet your (general you) spouse’s needs a form of abuse? In some cases it’s hard to tell. I’ve seen a lot of people end their marriage because their spouse refuses to do what is needed to meet their needs… like maybe just make a reasonable amount of time to spend with them.

So how do we decide if a person is just viewing marriage as a throw away intuition or if their divorce was for a ‘valid’ reason. It’s hard to make this judgment if we are not in the person’s life and in their head.

I do think it’s true that a lot of people do not put a lot of effort into deciding who to marry. Instead they get into a relationship, make excuses for problems and stick with it until it gets to the point that the relationship self-destructs.

Even putting a lot of effort into picking who to marry does not always work because many people just hide who they are before marriage. Then after marriage they slowly reveal who they are… or they change … or there are really daemon body snatchers who take over the body and minds of what were good people. 

Bottom line... its way too complicated. I think we need to trust that each person knows when they cannot go on any further.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I
> 
> … or there are really daemon body snatcher who take over the body and minds of what were good people.


Sadly, this is what happened to my beautiful wife. 

Just wait til I get my hands on that damnable body snatcher...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I don’t think that most people go into marriage thinking that their particular marriage is throw away.
> 
> But sometimes things in their marriage turn out to be something that they cannot live with; abuse and cheating being among that top two issues. But then there are the type of marriages in which a person is just not happy.
> 
> ...


I just thought it was as simple as the person who believes in throw-away marriages doesn't know themselves. It usually is that simple. If they were dating for a while, they would know if that prospective spouse has a bad attitude. Great theory, though. Thanks.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I just thought it was as simple as the person who believes in throw-away marriages doesn't know themselves. It usually is that simple. If they were dating for a while, they would know if that prospective spouse has a bad attitude. Great theory, though. Thanks.


So how do we decide if a person believes in throw-away marriages? Is the fact that they are divorced enough to mean that?


I think that the issue is that there are so many different things that can play out.


I married my son's father after dating him for 5 years. We lived together most of that time. I thought I knew his good points and his bad points. One thing I knew is that he was not emotionally and physically abusive. Yet after I married him he slowly turned emotionally and physically abuse. He also lied about some serious things, hid my income from me 'cause I stupidly was OK with him paying the bills, and he cheated through most of the marriage.

How did all of that change after I married him? 

I won't even both right now to go down the list of what the body snatchers did with the guy I married after I divorced my son's father. But again I dated him for 2.5 years and everything changed after we married.

It's not that I did not know myself or what I wanted. It was not that I rushed into marriage. And it's not that I think that marriage is a disposable institution. I just believe that I have to right to expect a marriage in which I am not emotionally and/or physically abused. This happens quite a bit.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> So how do we decide if a person believes in throw-away marriages? Is the fact that they are divorced enough to mean that?
> 
> 
> I think that the issue is that there are so many different things that can play out.
> ...




Just as I believe as well. On the other hand, I didn't read any of this in the thread as being the definitions a "walk away spouse" leaves. It cam across to me as a more flippant attitude, not something as serious as you describe in your marriage. Why do you think that is? Do you think the term, "walk away spouse" is a misnomer? Are there no "walk away spouses"? Are you trying to answer something you think I am hinting at? You've got me confused as to why you are going down this road, Ele.

Edit: Hey, Ele. If you don't want to hijack this thread any more than you have, but you're dying to respond, you can pm me.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I wonder sometimes why a person who knows they think of marriage as a throw-away institution would bother to do all the work that comes with getting married. It seems disingenuous.
> 
> What is the attraction for those who think this way? Money? Prestige based upon the societal status of the partner? The idea that there is a steady supply of sex?


For some people it's just a means to an end. They enjoy it while they are getting something out of it but once they have reached whatever their goal is, they bail. It's useless to them. For some it may be that they are emotionally immature and need the "newness" of a relationship until the shine wears off, then they go from relationship to relationship. Some people only think about themselves. They do not compromise, do not care to.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> If they were dating for a while, they would know if that prospective spouse has a bad attitude. Great theory, though. Thanks.


I wish I had known who my ex was while we were dating.It's like he became a different person shortly after the wedding.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I wish I had known who my ex was while we were dating.It's like he became a different person shortly after the wedding.


This happens so often it's surreal. I thought of it and didn't want to put the blame on someone else. My response was thought out a little and trying to take responsibility for myself. I am not criticizing you for your interpretation. We are all different. I just know that if I had used the red flags I realize now that I saw to compare to my boundaries, I would have done things differently. That doesn't mean she was "bad" or "wrong". It's that I was negligent in very carefully knowing myself and what I could "tolerate". Because, we cannot find people who are perfect for us, we can only find someone who we can tolerate within our personal boundaries. Apparently, I did not know my personal boundaries well enough. I did not have the life experiences that she had to compare and did not know how to get them. It was partly a pride thing too. No one wants to admit they have some issues to work on. For some, like me, my pride was more troublesome than I realized. I thought I was beyond all of that. Anyway, I am rambling on here.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I had a similar experience to Ele and Scarlet.

Sometimes people change a LOT after marriage.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I had a similar experience to Ele and Scarlet.
> 
> Sometimes people change a LOT after marriage.


FWIW,

I'm sure this is quite common. In fact, if you ask, I bet both spouses would say the same thing. 

For example, as soon as I was married the bed was only a place to sleep. I grew resentful of this. As a result, I probably stopped doing many of the nice things I used to do.


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## 4thand11 (May 20, 2013)

> I understand that marriage is supposed to be forever, they all have their ups and downs, and that you are supposed to be able to work through things. But that doesn't always happen. When most people, if not all, choose their life partner, they are really just making the best choice they know how to make based on life experience.


This is true and another factor is that people change, sometimes radically. So even if that person was right for you at the time that is no guarantee they will be right for you 10 or 20 years later.

I am pretty cynical about marriage in general. Which is odd because some sex issues aside (not enough of it, primarily) - my wife is awesome. I can't see myself divorcing her, ever. But I don't have a crystal ball and I don't know who we will both be in another 10 or 20 years. 

The idea of being with one person for 50 years is rather a strange concept when you stop and think about it. These forums are full of people posting about the affairs they are having, that they want to have, etc. I hear the term "The Fog" thrown around here often regarding affairs, but that rush of excitement and passion is a chemical reaction, it is like a drug and it is real - you can't belittle or deny it. In essence lifelong monogamy is like swearing off the most addictive and pleasure-inducing drug known to man. Of course there are benefits also but it is obvious why people are tempted!

I am an atheist and therefore have no religious thoughts about marriage. I think monogamy is a social construct designed to promote stable families for children, that's all. Many cultures throughout history have not been monogamous, and most other members of the animal kingdom are not. If people try to guilt someone for wanting a divorce who cares, they are not the boss of you. They are simply trying to use social pressure to keep you in line.

That is NOT to say there is not real emotional trauma when a marriage dissolves. It should not be undertaken lightly or discarded without a thought. There are 2 people involved and often only one person's feelings have changed. I think the commitment of marriage deserves at least SOME work to try and save it before walking away. Some people just get bored and move on, but the question for them is why get married in the first place? 

I respect a guy like George Clooney - got married once (before he was rich and famous, good example of a situation changing!). Now he likes dating a string of young beautiful women. Why not? But he's not dumb enough to get married to them.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It's definitely an institution that holds different meaning for different people. That is the main issue. Years ago, there were different thoughts about that. It may have been because of the laws or because of the biased opinions of men. Who knows? Those days are gone. 

It certainly is difficult for me to look at marriage and relationships any way other than has been taught to me by family, religious institutions and the folks I was raised around. 

I sometimes even feel from what I read on this site that I am actually "wrong" for my beliefs. That is a horrible shame that all opinions aren't made welcome. I don't think it is the site that does this. I think it is my interpretation of what I read. 

I believe we are looking at a small segment of society here. We are all having issues we don't know what to do with or we would not be here. Folks who do know what to do(not all) will not be here. If it is true that the majority of the world believes that marriage is not that big a deal, we truly need to change laws to reflect this ideology. 

Unfortunately, I feel frustrated and caught between what I thought was important and what many other people think is important. It is a shame that I have learned to assume so much. I am so far behind the curve, I disgust myself. It's no wonder I often feel alone, sad, inadequate, foolish and stupid. A lifetime of training in the belief that things "should" be a certain way when they in reality never will be, will do this to you. Be careful how you train your children. Make sure they know the truth. If you have any religious beliefs, they will cause conflict with the "real" world, no matter what they are. What a wasted life.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> From reading your OP on this thread, you were putting out there a topic to discuss in a general sense. The topic is not you or your marriage in particular but instead marriage and divorce in the case where there are no big problems in the marriage.. the major problem is that one spouse is not happy for years, perhaps over a decade.
> 
> No, the alimony question was not an effort at being sarcastic. It was a legitimate question.
> 
> ...


EleGirl, let's say, if you're a member of the legislature, and you clearly think this abuse of alimony is immoral.. what kind of amendment or additional clauses which you think would be most appropriate to ensure that this alimony law be guarded from abuse?


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Perhaps, though figuring out if that is the case with some of these without working on the marriage, including counseling, can be difficult. Further, my observation is that these behaviors don't just start full-bore one day. They start small and grow. Working on heading these off may be required.
> 
> Again, the language suggests that if things are not great, just end it. I don't know if that was the intended message, but felt the need to clarify.


From my own personal experience and reading stories on TAM, living with somebody with NPD, BPD, alcoholism is rarely fixed by staying and counseling to "fight for the marriage" 

When you marry somebody you should try to add to their lives instead of subtracting. When you live with somebody with these mental illnesses like NPD, BPD, etc you are being asked to subtract from yourself and eventually you end up at zero and sadly in the negative. Too many people waste years on their life and end up damaged and with PSTD like symptoms. Putting divorce on the table doesn't automatically mean "I quit". Its a way of drawing a line in the sand by not accepting personal destruction as a possibility. Thank you sir may I have another?

My ex promised time and time again to stop with the abusive behaviors. I believed her every time so a few days later it would just resurface again when I hit one of her many triggers. 

If my advice and the language I use is considered "lazy" or "quitter" then so be it. Call me idealistic but I believe you should strive to leave your loved ones lives better than you found it. If you are incapable of doing that then relationships and marriage are just not for you. Do humanity and yourself a favor and remove yourself from equation until you learn to add and not subtract. If you can't then don't subject another person to your problems.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> EleGirl, let's say, if you're a member of the legislature, and you clearly think this abuse of alimony is immoral.. what kind of amendment or additional clauses which you think would be most appropriate to ensure that this alimony law be guarded from abuse?


This is simple. Lifetime alimony is ridiculous, immoral and the very premise turns the one paying the alimony an indentured servant. There should be a time limit on the alimony of no more than two years, maybe 3 for extenuating circumstances.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I think the alimony (or lack of it) should hinge on several factors having to do with the spouse requesting alimony:

age of spouse at time of divorce
previous/current work history of spouse
ability of spouse to be educated/train for a viable employment position
number of years married
ages of children
spouse's position/career path as related to other spouse (for example, in the 50s/60s, the wife of a corporate VP or bigwig was EXPECTED to be a SAHW/SAHM....you could hardly blame her later for having NO CAREER or work experience...it would be hypocritical); in modern times, this would be more akin to a wife who has to follow her H around the country/globe for HIS job (because it's more prestigious, has better pay or better prospects). You can hardly be punitive and complain she didn't earn enough or expect her to make vast career inroads if she's HAD to put her own career in 'neutral' or 'park' in deference to HIS career.
As far as 'lifetime alimony', I think it depends. If you married at 20yo and divorced at 40yo, I don't think you should be 'set up for life' on someone else's dime.

If you married at 25yo and divorce at 55yo, maybe you should get 10 years of aliimony. It also depends on what the couple decided during the marriage...if they BOTH wanted her to be a SAHM and take care of the children, then she has forfeited her ability to build a decent career and that would need to be looked at. If she worked throughout the marriage, that is a different matter.

I think it would need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis (no attorneys; each party submits a 1-page argument for their side to a 3-person panel).


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

I find it extremely disturbing to read some of these views on marriage. Does no one care about their commitments anymore? Marriage is a LIFELONG contract. The only reason I think is valid to dump your spouse is if they aren't honoring their contract. Infidelity, or severe neglect (sexual or otherwise), or abuse. 

Others have suggested that a few months of 'unhappiness' justifies broken vows?! Wow, I find that revolting.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

wilderness said:


> Others have suggested that a few months of 'unhappiness' justifies broken vows?! Wow, I find that revolting.


who suggested this? I didn't see it in the comments.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

wilderness said:


> Marriage is a LIFELONG contract.


Until someone decides they want a divorce.

Most divorces are NOT mutual. Generally one person wants it and the other doesn't.

And the thing is, if someone does want it, why should the other person have to stay in a relationship with someone who does NOT want to be with them? I can't think of anything sadder.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Until someone decides they want a divorce.
> 
> Most divorces are NOT mutual. Generally one person wants it and the other doesn't.
> 
> And the thing is, if someone does want it, why should the other person have to stay in a relationship with someone who does NOT want to be with them? I can't think of anything sadder.


Spot on. Every single relantionship I have been in I have considered voluntary, even marriage. I have told each and every one of my partners "If you do not want to be with me simply tell me quick and move on. Don't cheat or make excuses. I don't want to you be with me and unhappy".


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

wilderness said:


> I find it extremely disturbing to read some of these views on marriage. Does no one care about their commitments anymore? Marriage is a LIFELONG contract. The only reason I think is valid to dump your spouse is if they aren't honoring their contract. Infidelity, or severe neglect (sexual or otherwise), or abuse.
> 
> Others have suggested that a few months of 'unhappiness' justifies broken vows?! Wow, I find that revolting.


I'm all for spending the rest of my life with someone I love but make it enjoyable. If you are making me miserable because of abuse, NPD, BPD, etc then no I'm not going to piss my life away on somebody who does not deserve it.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Until someone decides they want a divorce.
> 
> Most divorces are NOT mutual. Generally one person wants it and the other doesn't.
> 
> And the thing is, if someone does want it, why should the other person have to stay in a relationship with someone who does NOT want to be with them? I can't think of anything sadder.


For better or for worse.
In sickness and in health.
Till death do us part.

Again, does no one care to honor their commitments in this world anymore? It really is disgusting to me that people can just casually cast aside their contract as if they never agreed to it in the first place. Talk about lack of honor and commitment.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Sanity said:


> I'm all for spending the rest of my life with someone I love but make it enjoyable. If you are making me miserable because of abuse, NPD, BPD, etc then no I'm not going to piss my life away on somebody who does not deserve it.


Personality disorders are a marriage killer. These people are abusive, and they are not honoring their contract, either.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

wilderness said:


> For better or for worse.
> In sickness and in health.
> Till death do us part.
> 
> Again, does no one care to honor their commitments in this world anymore? It really is disgusting to me that people can just casually cast aside their contract as if they never agreed to it in the first place. Talk about lack of honor and commitment.


Look I hear you AND I agree. But the fact is, it only takes 1 person to divorce. The person on the receiving end has NO choice but to concede. 

Do you see that? Most divorces are NOT mutual. Am just trying to get you to see that. 

Some people do not take marriage seriously at all. To them it's a disposable thing.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Look I hear you AND I agree. But the fact is, it only takes 1 person to divorce. The person on the receiving end has NO choice but to concede.
> 
> Do you see that? Most divorces are NOT mutual. Am just trying to get you to see that.
> 
> Some people do not take marriage seriously at all. To them it's a disposable thing.


That's the problem. The divorce industrial complex makes too much money to fix this thing.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

wilderness said:


> For better or for worse.
> In sickness and in health.
> Till death do us part.
> 
> Again, does no one care to honor their commitments in this world anymore? It really is disgusting to me that people can just casually cast aside their contract as if they never agreed to it in the first place. Talk about lack of honor and commitment.


I don't understand where you're getting that people casually do this?
Divorce is anything but casual for the average person.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't understand where you're getting that people casually do this?
> Divorce is anything but casual for the average person.


It seems casual to me that someone would even _consider_ divorce without HUGE issues in marriage. Like severe abuse, infidelity, severe neglect, etc... 
It just boggles my mind. 

You know it's casual when a walk away spouse tells the BS the marriage is over and they refuse to even _TRY_ to make it work. Pretty reprehensible and indefensible in my opinion.

What would the WAS have to lose by trying? Absolutely nothing.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

wilderness said:


> It seems casual to me that someone would even _consider_ divorce without HUGE issues in marriage. Like severe abuse, infidelity, severe neglect, etc...
> It just boggles my mind.
> 
> You know it's casual when a walk away spouse tells the BS the marriage is over and they refuse to even _TRY_ to make it work. Pretty reprehensible and indefensible in my opinion.
> ...


Who says they didn't try before they made the decision to file for divorce? 

It may have been they tried and tried and tried and got nowhere with their partner who viewed their discussions and tries as complaining and nagging.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

wilderness said:


> For better or for worse.
> In sickness and in health.
> Till death do us part.
> 
> Again, does no one care to honor their commitments in this world anymore? It really is disgusting to me that people can just casually cast aside their contract as if they never agreed to it in the first place. Talk about lack of honor and commitment.


I don't see anything casual about it. When people can go through a drive through and get divorced in 3 minutes or your money back, then I will agree. In the interest of intellectual honesty, you might want to direct this question at women. When 70% of divorces are initiated by women, that's the national conversation we need to have. Whats going on? 

My personal belief is that not all people should be in relationships let alone married. 

I personally loved being married and for a time was very proud and happy of saying the phrase "my wife". I would look at my ring and feel part of something greater, completed as a man. Yes I picked wrong but at the time it felt like I picked right dammit. I said my vows, committed and believed in them like I was jumping into volcano trying to save my village from the angry Gods. 

The internal conflict you feel when you want to desperately hold on to your vows in the face of constant and unwavering disappointment is soul crushing. I WANTED it to work. I cherished my vows and was commited. I remember vividly thinking about suicide as an viable option just to not break my vows, pathetic no? 

Thankfully family, friends and you fine folks at TAM helped me realize that divorce is a necessary evil and that I was doing the right thing.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Sanity said:


> *This is simple. Lifetime alimony is ridiculous, immoral and the very premise turns the one paying the alimony an indentured servant*. There should be a time limit on the alimony of no more than two years, maybe 3 for extenuating circumstances.


:iagree:



SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I think the alimony (or lack of it) should hinge on several factors having to do with the spouse requesting alimony:
> 
> age of spouse at time of divorce
> previous/current work history of spouse
> ...


Ah, Mr. Sanity gave the moral foundation, and Mrs. SGW gave the guide for implementation. Perfect! :iagree: Thank you very much!


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

norajane said:


> Who says they didn't try before they made the decision to file for divorce?
> 
> It may have been they tried and tried and tried and got nowhere with their partner who viewed their discussions and tries as complaining and nagging.


Exactly. There are so many assumptions made that people must not have tried to make the marriage work if they ultimately made the decision to divorce. Or that they consider marriage to be a 'throw away'. Or that they took the commitment casually. 
Many seem to believe that unless you are abused in some way, there is always a way to make things work, and that no matter how unhappy you are being in the marriage, you MUST stay in it. Those folks are entitled to that opinion. But I have found in life that the practice of assuming things rarely works out well in life. Just saying.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

wilderness said:


> You know it's casual when a walk away spouse tells the BS the marriage is over and they refuse to even _TRY_ to make it work. Pretty reprehensible and indefensible in my opinion.
> 
> What would the WAS have to lose by trying? Absolutely nothing.


The thing is that it takes *TWO* people to want a marriage and *TWO* people to try. If only one wants it, then that's it. 

If ONE person wants out or to divorce, that's it. Game over. The other person has to concede. 

One person alone cannot force someone else to be married to them. It does not work that way. There are millions of unwanted divorces. Do you understand that?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

itscomplicatedforsure said:


> Exactly. There are so many assumptions made that people must not have tried to make the marriage work if they ultimately made the decision to divorce. Or that they consider marriage to be a 'throw away'. Or that they took the commitment casually.
> Many seem to believe that unless you are abused in some way, there is always a way to make things work, and that no matter how unhappy you are being in the marriage, you MUST stay in it. Those folks are entitled to that opinion. But I have found in life that the practice of assuming things rarely works out well in life. Just saying.


I don't see it that way at all. If there is one thing that I've noticed about walkaways, it's that they tend to have a 'martyr' complex. I am sooo unhappy, I am soooo miserable, I tried for years and there was nothing I could do, etc etc...
I'm not buying it.

I'm sorry, but being married to someone that doesn't always give you the warm and fuzzies is not a miserable existence! It's not torture! I'm in the camp that two people making a true and honest effort, with the help of Jesus Christ, can ALWAYS overcome and make it work. ALWAYS.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

wilderness said:


> with the help of Jesus Christ, can ALWAYS overcome and make it work. ALWAYS.


aaaaaand that explains it. Now I can unsubscribe peacefully.


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

I can only come to the conclusion that there are unhappy people that aren't "martyrs" that stay in an unhealthy, unfulfilling marriage.
I believe that _anyone_ can always be happy if they are willing to admit that what they have isn't working, and have the strength to make changes in their life for the better. ALWAYS.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

wilderness said:


> I'm sorry, but being married to someone that doesn't always give you the warm and fuzzies is not a miserable existence! It's not torture! I'm in the camp that two people making a true and honest effort, with the help of Jesus Christ, can ALWAYS overcome and make it work. ALWAYS.


=/


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

wilderness said:


> I don't see it that way at all. If there is one thing that I've noticed about walkaways, it's that they tend to have a 'martyr' complex. I am sooo unhappy, I am soooo miserable, I tried for years and there was nothing I could do, etc etc...
> I'm not buying it.
> 
> I'm sorry, but being married to someone that doesn't always give you the warm and fuzzies is not a miserable existence! It's not torture! I'm in the camp that two people making a true and honest effort, with the help of Jesus Christ, can ALWAYS overcome and make it work. ALWAYS.


*Jesus Christ walks into the bar to preach to some sinners and a NPDer and a BPDer come up and ask for help. Jesus says "With me all things are possible my children." The NPDer and BPDer ask Jesus to heal everybody else of their mental illness because they are tired of having to deal with so many crazy people. Jesus walks away and says "Satan, I have two more souls for you".  *

While my story above can be viewed as blasphemous to you, please understand I am just trying to give you a sense of scope of the real problem of staying in a marriage that ultimately can destroy you. Yes very bad marriages left untreated are worse than cancer. Ask anybody here in one. 

I had a friend who's wife decided after their third child to start a sex binge with three different men in two states and one she met online. A mutal friend who is a born again Christian said the same thing you posted to my friend in his grief: 



> with the help of Jesus Christ, can ALWAYS overcome and make it work.


I'm a God fearing man but I also know that we were given free will. God doesn't call for us to be abused or miserable with somebody. I would even venture to say that God sent him his now wonderful loving new wife two years later because he saw what his ex was. The lord works in mysterious ways no?


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