# Revisiting places where my wife went with her lover



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

It has been 2 years of ups and downs. My wife initially refused to admit that what she had was even an affair. She would stand on her soap box and claim that it was not infidelity. Of course this denial only fanned the flames of my betrayal. For 2 years she has continued to lie to me, not willing to be transparent, minimize, defend and deflect.We are currently in counseling and we are making progress ONLY because she has turned 180 degrees and is now remorseful and full of shame.

The ultimate question I have is, if she went away for a weekend with her lover, let's say to Las Vegas, should I in my recovery ever be comfortable going to Las Vegas with her again? Do I have the right to set parameters around my mental and emotional well being?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

philvoid said:


> It has been 2 years of ups and downs. My wife initially refused to admit that what she had was even an affair. She would stand on her soap box and claim that it was not infidelity. Of course this denial only fanned the flames of my betrayal. For 2 years she has continued to lie to me, not willing to be transparent, minimize, defend and deflect.We are currently in counseling and we are making progress ONLY because she has turned 180 degrees and is now remorseful and full of shame.
> 
> The ultimate question I have is, if she went away for a weekend with her lover, let's say to Las Vegas, should I in my recovery ever be comfortable going to Las Vegas with her again? Do I have the right to set parameters around my mental and emotional well being?


That is further down the line - visiting places she did with her lover. She needs to come 100% clean about EVERYTHING and I mean everything up to and including taking a polygraph test to answer your questions. Also you need to get some individual counseling to work on you - apart form the marriage. Your wife betrayed you in the most vile way possible and lied about it. she has shown a depraved indifference to your well being to cover her own behind. She is attempting a rug sweep and that is a no no.

Do you know how long her affair was? do you have a time line? Who was her lover? Did you expose it to the other mans wife? to everyone in your own life? 

You have many steps to go my friend before you can think of reclaiming places she went to with her lover.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

philvoid said:


> Do I have the right to set parameters around my mental and emotional well being?


Absolutely.


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

this has been one of the hardest things to deal with in recovery. My husband dated two women about 15 places all over this town. Everytime we go to any of them that is what I think about, 3.5 years later. I have to just think of all the good things that have happened since then but it still is ouchy. 
Also, your point about your mental health - so very true. I'm not sure why my husband doesn't understand that. I can not and will not ever put myself in a position to see the woman I caught him making out with. But, he is unwilling to move and I refuse to give him an ultimatum. He knows how I feel about it, and chooses not to do anything. So, if it gets too bad here for my mental health, I will LEAVE HIM or LEAVE THIS TOWN. But he's lost his chance of staying with me no matter where I live if my mental health is jeopardized. 
Its really hard to figure out why he doesnt' understand this. He is a BS too. But he's suffered enough for this marriage and he won't lose his job for it. 
He might lose his wife though - tee hee hee!


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

the other partner was widowed - no one to tell. the affair lasted only a few months. i have told my closest friends (2) and my mom b/c i was in such anguish. the fact that i told my mom cause much grief in my wife but i needed to release my pain - if i can live with this, she can live with that! You think a poly would remove all doubt?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Depends on your wiring.

Some men are wired to retake their wives by taking them every way the OM did and in every place. Then they keep going blazing new trails.

If you are less of a conqueror and more sensitive, looking for closure, it might help you just to know the details, to close the gap in your knowledge of your wife.

She has had sexual romantic experiences and maybe you need let in as painful as it will be. Afterwards she won't have any bad secrets between you and it could seriously help increase your intimacy.

What do you think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

philvoid said:


> the other partner was widowed - no one to tell. the affair lasted only a few months. i have told my closest friends (2) and my mom b/c i was in such anguish. the fact that i told my mom cause much grief in my wife but i needed to release my pain - if i can live with this, she can live with that! You think a poly would remove all doubt?


Do you know how many times they were together? Has she sent a no contact letter to the other man? did she provide you with all the details of the affair that you wanted? If you feel she is not being honest then get her to take a poly.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

philvoid said:


> Do I have the right to set parameters around my mental and emotional well being?


Yes. And to further that it will not be "what if" but "when" your W states, "Hey, remember the last time we were here and....." only to realize that last time was not with you. IMHO, going to these places your W did with her lover is opening an emotional can of worms. It has already started based on the fact you are here inquiring.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

philvoid said:


> the other partner was widowed - no one to tell. the affair lasted only a few months. i have told my closest friends (2) and my mom b/c i was in such anguish. the fact that i told my mom cause much grief in my wife but i needed to release my pain - if i can live with this, she can live with that! You think a poly would remove all doubt?


Exposure is necessary to help kill the affair and your wife will gladly accept the shame if she is truly remorseful.

She should have no pride concerning her affair and be dedicated to doing whatever it takes to become a better human being and help.you heal from the damage she did to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

philvoid said:


> Do I have the right to set parameters around my mental and emotional well being?


Absolutely! Every human being does, regardless of the reason for a particular person, place or thing causing them anxiety.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Did she admit to sleeping with him?

Make her write a timeline of where they met, when, what they did and how much money she spent. 

Give her a deadline and tell her if she does not provide it you will be seeing a lawyer. 

Time to do your own 180. 

_This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing._


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

philvoid said:


> the other partner was widowed - no one to tell. the affair lasted only a few months. i have told my closest friends (2) and my mom b/c i was in such anguish. the fact that i told my mom cause much grief in my wife but i needed to release my pain - if i can live with this, she can live with that! You think a poly would remove all doubt?


yes


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

If it bugs you, then yes, you need to set boundaries about that.

But, you're like 35 steps into the process and have been living two years worth of a false reconciliation.

Was she sleeping with him for the past two years? Has she come clean with everything, given you a timeline of events, been transparent with everything, and then and only then...

Actually shown remorse?

Because here's the funny thing about remorse. If it's shown before she actually admits to what she's remorseful for (as much as you need and as little as you need in terms of detail)... all it will do is make you want to make her feel better as the nice guy.

Remorse is only remorse if it's a full account and admission of what they're remorseful for, and why it happened, and why it will never happen again.

See, affairs aren't just about sex or love or whatever. What they really boil down for me is a violation of the trust and commitment that you have. What it really is, is being emotionally fraudulent. Instead of a partnership, it's one person reaping the benefits of being single while reaping the benefits of being married at the same time.


----------



## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

I can only tell you from my personal experience, those kinds of things always bothered me. Mostly because my XW never really "atoned" for her infidelities. My R was a dismal failure after 6 years, which lead into an awful 3.5 year protracted divorce. I am better now, but only because I am divorced from her. It has been the only closure I have gotten, and I have learned that I will never get any answers to a long standing series of poor decisions, and actions by her. 

You have every right to set your emotional boundaries. If your W isn't interested in accepting these, then move on. My XW didnt accept mine, and over these years kept telling me to just get over it. How can I get over something that I dont know the truth of? I told you how my marriage ended up. My advise is to not waste as much time as i did, with someone who does not accept who you are now due to their deceitfulness.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

If you hear "get over it" my advice is to listen to them and get over it. 

By dumping them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

I appreciate all the input!!!!!! Some of which I will implement and other s just realize the source. For me, the sun rises and sets with her BUT this does not mean I will become a doormat!!!! Ultimately, if she is truly remorseful, in my opinion she should be sensitive to the things that harm my emotional and mental state. And if that cannot be done, I will come to grips with the harsh reality of living without her. Thank you ALL!!!!!


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

You have the right to do whatever you want, for starters.

As far as not wanting to go to Las Vegas, or wanting to go there, that's really up to you. I think if you don't want to go, she aught to understand that, and accept it as being her fault.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> I appreciate all the input!!!!!! Some of which I will implement and other s just realize the source. For me, the sun rises and sets with her BUT this does not mean I will become a doormat!!!! Ultimately, if she is truly remorseful, in my opinion she should be sensitive to the things that harm my emotional and mental state. And if that cannot be done, I will come to grips with the harsh reality of living without her. Thank you ALL!!!!!


Listen.

If the sun rises and sets with her...

Then that's the recipe for another affair and a ****ty marriage.

Start there. The sun _does not_ rise and set with her. 

Sorry, your wife is about average, just like everybody else's. Sure, she's unique, but I guarantee that if you're smart, fit, confident, sane, and have some money in your pocket, there are bah-zillions of women who would gladly take her place.

Just like there's a dude that DID gladly take your place.

Put her in her place in your universe. She's just a woman, and you're just a man. You're both infinitely replaceable, even as you are infinitely unique.


----------



## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

philvoid said:


> It has been 2 years of ups and downs. My wife initially refused to admit that what she had was even an affair. She would stand on her soap box and claim that it was not infidelity. Of course this denial only fanned the flames of my betrayal. For 2 years she has continued to lie to me, not willing to be transparent, minimize, defend and deflect.We are currently in counseling and we are making progress ONLY because she has turned 180 degrees and is now remorseful and full of shame.
> 
> The ultimate question I have is, if she went away for a weekend with her lover, let's say to Las Vegas, should I in my recovery ever be comfortable going to Las Vegas with her again? Do I have the right to set parameters around my mental and emotional well being?



It took 2 years for her to turn around and acknowledge the affair, why are you even in this marriage ?

Not to attack you but don't you have any standards for your life partner ?


----------



## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

philvoid said:


> I appreciate all the input!!!!!! Some of which I will implement and other s just realize the source. For me, the sun rises and sets with her BUT this does not mean I will become a doormat!!!! Ultimately, if she is truly remorseful, in my opinion she should be sensitive to the things that harm my emotional and mental state. And if that cannot be done, I will come to grips with the harsh reality of living without her. Thank you ALL!!!!!




See, I am not a doormat but I am a doormat.

You are an absolute doormat. Acknowledge your weakness and start from there. I mean, what can she do ? Have sex with him infront of you ?

What is her current remorse like ?


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Mahatma Gandhi


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

I have standards for my life partner. I also have the wisdom to know that humans are a frame of imperfection - no one is without mistake. Do we condemn all that have made a mistake? Have you had your share of mistakes? And in so realizing your errors, did you not want to be forgiven?


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

philvoid said:


> I have standards for my life partner. I also have the wisdom to know that humans are a frame of imperfection - no one is without mistake. Do we condemn all that have made a mistake? Have you had your share of mistakes? And in so realizing your errors, did you not want to be forgiven?


This is true Phil....all humans are imperfect...we all make mistakes.

But many people distinguish between mistakes and active choices to betray and injure those they are supposed to love and be loyal too.

People don't 'accidentally' get naked and fall onto/into the private parts of other humans.

It is a choice....not a miscalculation.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Human errors, poor decisions, faulty thinking, irrational expectations, entitlement, hyper libido, etc etc are all examples of mistakes people make. I am not questioning where they are rooted OR if one is worse than another. Looking at it and processing whether this is something I can release and forgive is my only focus. Yes it was calculated! Yes it was premeditated! Yes it was very wrong. If there is true remorse, then I feel I can invest in that


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

philvoid said:


> Human errors, poor decisions, faulty thinking, irrational expectations, entitlement, hyper libido, etc etc are all examples of mistakes people make. I am not questioning where they are rooted OR if one is worse than another. Looking at it and processing whether this is something I can release and forgive is my only focus. Yes it was calculated! Yes it was premeditated! Yes it was very wrong. If there is true remorse, then I feel I can invest in that


That is all that matters, Phil.

It's all about what you want going forward.

My post was just to say that some of the advice/comments you will read on TAM may not align with what you need or are looking for because others have a very different view on infidelity/betrayal.

They don't see it as just a simple mistake to be worked through and quickly forgiven.....some believe R only works if the WS does serious soul-searching and introspection on to how they could allow themselves to make such choices.

Some don't think it can work at all....that the decision to betray is one of those heinous types of acts that a perpetrator can never be remorseful enough to really work through.

In other words, just take the advice and comments that are helpful....and realize that those that are not probably come from posters who view infidelity in a much different light than you do.

Best of luck.

And btw, I agree with those posters that say you have every right to not want to ever step foot in places she has tainted with her POSOM again in your life.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
> 
> Mahatma Gandhi


"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
-JFK


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

I understand the world I am dealing with when I turn to such a forum for guidance. Didn't mean to come across and slam you! Obviously, there are those who can forgive and those that cannot. I get that! I will take what works for me and leave the rest behind. Thank you!


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Forgiving is love’s toughest work, and love’s biggest risk. If you twist it into something it was never meant to be, it can make you a doormat or an insufferable manipulator. Forgiving seems almost unnatural. Our sense of fairness tells us people should pay for the wrong they do. But forgiving is love’s power to break nature’s rule. ~Lewis B. Smedes


----------



## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Obviously a man of strong principles.

A wise man does not limit his options unnecessarily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

marduk said:


> "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
> -JFK


Personally,

I think forgiveness is very over-rated as a positive attribute in human society.

Like all things is has its place, within limits.

But I think blanket forgiveness of offenses, no matter how damaging and revolting, is no benefit to anyone....and it certainly plays no positive role in making others think twice before acting.

Much more powerful, both as a 'second thought' to the perpetrator and a sense of self worth to the victim IMO, is the attitude that, while forgiveness is a virtue in moderation, there are some acts so heinous in nature that they probably cannot, or will not, be forgiven.

I see little benefit to the victim, and nothing but a free pass or greenlight to the perpetrator, in forgiving and excusing such horrible wrongs like betrayal, rape, murder, severe physical abuse, etc.

IMO...there are indeed some acts that are unforgivable.

And I don't see myself as weak because of it....no matter what Gandhi's opinion was.

And that doesn't mean I'm saying he was wrong....IMO, forgiveness is a very personal thing.....and what works for one person, does not automatically make it right for others.

My own opinion included.


----------



## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

philvoid said:


> I have standards for my life partner. I also have the wisdom to know that humans are a frame of imperfection - no one is without mistake. Do we condemn all that have made a mistake? Have you had your share of mistakes? And in so realizing your errors, did you not want to be forgiven?


Of course I want to be forgiven for my own mistakes.

But what if I am not really sorry but only say I am sorry just to escape the consequences of my mistakes ? 

What if I keep doing the same mistake because I know I can act remorseful and get away with it if it does not work out ?

If it took her 2 years to even acknowledge it, can you even call it remorse ?

Does she really wants to be forgiven ? Or are your projecting your own feelings(that you want a remorseful wife) on to her ?


----------



## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

philvoid said:


> The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
> 
> Mahatma Gandhi





> Forgiving is love’s toughest work, and love’s biggest risk. If you twist it into something it was never meant to be, it can make you a doormat or an insufferable manipulator. Forgiving seems almost unnatural. Our sense of fairness tells us people should pay for the wrong they do. But forgiving is love’s power to break nature’s rule. ~Lewis B. Smedes



Quotes have context. For example the same Gandhi also said this



> In a post-war interview in 1946, he said, "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher's knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."[186] Gandhi believed this act of "collective suicide", in response to the Holocaust, "would have been heroism"


Forgiveness is a very noble act. 
But what I think is happening is that your are covering up your own fears and projecting them as being forgiving and being magnanimous. You decided you would want to be with her then basing your logic and arguments around it. Forgiveness angled to your own self interests is not real forgiveness. 


You can still decide to forgive her and not be with her.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*It's more than obvious that your wife showed utmost disdain for your marital union by hooking up with some well-hung widower to make her heart palpitate off in secluded private settings, all while you were back at home being rather clueless about her covert and wanton deception! 

And that poor ol' widower BF of hers undoubtedly had to have known that she was married to you at the time that he was busy jetting her away off to unknown venues in order to wine and dine her, then show total respect for your marriage by simply going "balls deep" on your old lady; and then she's bringing it all back home to you to perform an encore performance on, with you not having the first damned clue that you're the fastidious recipient of "sloppy seconds!" Jetting off to vacation venues where she was busy "taking ol' one eye to the the optometrist" just doesn't have any redeeming appeal to me!

But if you really feel that "the stuff" that she's in possession of is worth the the price of admission inasfar as reconciliation is concerned, then I heartily say to you, "go for it!"

But for someone who I was married to that disrespected the love and the honor that I had faithfully showed to her, by what she deceptively did to you, then to hell with with the unbridled pain of R with her; I would have been off in some lawyer's office planning out exactly how to rid myself of that painful scourge! IMHO, no piece of a$$ is worth that!

But then again, that's just me!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Hello my friend.

You said you are in counseling,but why ??? If she keeps lying then there is no reason for counseling.

Why would you visit places that she went with him,it is just another wound on your heart ?


Good marriage needs two people,but in this case you are the only one.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

philvoid said:


> The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
> 
> Mahatma Gandhi


I have forgiven many people that hurt me during my life. That does not mean that they can or should remain in my life after they betrayed me.


----------



## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

OP,

You state in your other thread that this a second marriage for both of you. Did your WW cheat on her first H as well ?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> Yes. And to further that it will not be "what if" but "when" your W states, "Hey, remember the last time we were here and....." only to realize that last time was not with you. IMHO, going to these places your W did with her lover is opening an emotional can of worms. It has already started based on the fact you are here inquiring.


Yep. Happened to me. "Hey! Do you remember that lovely naughty weekend we had when we went to such-and-such a town?"

My reply was a downbeat "No?"

My wife looked at me, said "Oh! That wasn't you, that was OM, wasn't it?"

When I affirmed thst was the case she squeezed my hand and at least she did apologise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

i see only lot of philosophy and lack of consequences and action from you.

These philosophical thoughts or words is not going to reduce your pain or make her remorseful.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

My sense is you are conflict averse, so you're confusing forgiveness with resolution. 

Forgiveness is releasing or unburdening of the pain by letting it go. 

Resolution is, you know, acually resolving the problem. 

You don't get the first without the second.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

A former inmate of a Nazi concentration camp was visiting a friend who had shared the ordeal with him.
"Have you forgiven the Nazis:: he asked his friend.
"Yes."
"Well, I haven't. I'm still consumed with hatred for them."
"In that case," said his friend gently, "they still have you in prison"


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

She is being remorseful. She is apologizing daily! She has made changes in here life that adhere to being honorable, transparent and genuine, I know the entire episode for her is something she wishes never would have happened. She realizes loss and accepts the ramifications of her actions. She knows our life has changed forever. But that does not mean that the change needs to be negative - change can alos be beneficial as long as she continues to grow and heal. She provides me daily affirmations of what she will do and how she will process moving forward. She by no means is a reclamation project. All of these things provide me hope and I am willing to hold on to that. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Stop comparing what your wife did to Nazis.

You came here for help. Are you delusional enough to believe that anyone here needs your help instead?

Speaking for myself, no.

I am far stronger, wiser, more experienced and by all accounts, in a better marriage than you.

Listen to me and those like me or shove off and keep your empty and misapplied philosophy to yourself as you continue to fail at your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

some people are very willing to display how ignorant they are!
thanks for the 411


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Conan - that was really mean.
OP - I'm not so sure forgiveness has to equal hatred or being held a prisoner. It took a long time for me to forgive my husband. I'm still not sure if it stuck. However, there is no hatred there.... It's simply working on having a very fruitful life. I'm not so sure people get over infidelity, but live through it.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

See. You apparently came here to try and teach instead of learn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

philvoid said:


> some people are very willing to display how ignorant they are!
> thanks for the 411


Wisdom is justified by her children.

My results eclipse yours where marriage is concerned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> Conan - that was really mean.
> OP - I'm not so sure forgiveness has to equal hatred or being held a prisoner. It took a long time for me to forgive my husband. I'm still not sure if it stuck. However, there is no hatred there.... It's simply working on having a very fruitful life. I'm not so sure people get over infidelity, but live through it.


I have a tendency to slap the shyt out of people that are in far worse shape than me and insist on trying to educate me about something I am better at then them.

You are correct. I am indeed mean in certain situations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

who declared you a "Teacher"?
don't we all learn from one another.
Oh, no.....you're the other guy! Think your way and I'll think the right way! Totally oblivious to dynamics and circumstances! Does being myopic run in the family? Run to the disctionary and look that up.....I'll wait


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

OP. I do apologize for my mean tone but I stand by my point.

There is great experience here and results abound when you take the knowledge offered and apply it.

Most here are farther along in the resolution of their problems than you are.

Once you have applied knowledge and achieved results it is wonderful to share and advise.

When you start waxing poetic to us about quotes without how they have been applied practically to your situation to improve your marriage, it is empty philosophy.

Faith without works is certainly a dead faith.

If you want to make quotes then at least reveal how you have applied it to your marriage and the infidelity of your wife in a practical manner.

Otherwise you aren't helping anyone, least of all yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

philvoid said:


> who declared you a "Teacher"?
> don't we all learn from one another.
> Oh, no.....you're the other guy! Think your way and I'll think the right way! Totally oblivious to dynamics and circumstances! Does being myopic run in the family? Run to the disctionary and look that up.....I'll wait


I've actually used the term myopic several times on this forum before you came to join us.

You approached with a problem. Not vice versa.

So yes. The folks here have been approached by you to teach you or help, whatever term you want to employ.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

philvoid said:


> who declared you a "Teacher"?
> don't we all learn from one another.
> Oh, no.....you're the other guy! Think your way and I'll think the right way! Totally oblivious to dynamics and circumstances! Does being myopic run in the family? Run to the disctionary and look that up.....I'll wait




With all due respect philvoid, perhaps if you read more posts by ConanHub you would understand the method in which he advises. I will say I thought he was a jerk when I read some of his posts, but then read more and I can tell you off the top of my head he has twenty or more years researching relationships. Could he word it different, sure he could, could he roll his words into a ball and coat them with sugar, sure he could. But that's not his way of doing things, it's not him, so he shows you his true self which is an honorable trait to me. You may not like what he says but I implore you to see past that and read into what he is telling you. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I do apologize for being an a-hole. I'm getting softer in some ways.

I have always had problems with restraint when someone is having their legs chewed off by a beast.

Some try and gently persuade the victim to at least move from out of the reach of the beast, others try and make the victim more comfortable as the beast slowly devours the victim.

I have a tendency to scream, yell at and slap the victim while handing them weapons to kill the thing that is harming them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> She is being remorseful. She is apologizing daily! She has made changes in here life that adhere to being honorable, transparent and genuine, I know the entire episode for her is something she wishes never would have happened. She realizes loss and accepts the ramifications of her actions. She knows our life has changed forever. But that does not mean that the change needs to be negative - change can alos be beneficial as long as she continues to grow and heal. She provides me daily affirmations of what she will do and how she will process moving forward. She by no means is a reclamation project. All of these things provide me hope and I am willing to hold on to that. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!


LOL!

Sorry to laugh man, but until she admits what she's remorseful for, in however much detail you need...
It's not actually remorse. It's "please let me off the hook for it so I can feel better."

Which is quite different.

I've been told by cheaters that coming clean is a key element for them too, and can be cathartic for the relationship actually.

You can't solve a problem unless you know what the problem is, and what you're dealing with. And the thing is, people who cheat don't always know why they did so, and after all they want is for it to go away.

Allowing for this is allowing it to happen in the future.

Relationships are based on honesty. I think couples are allowed privacy between their ears, but once they break the marriage contract, to re-enter it, one must have transparency, no?

I mean, do you even know what you are forgiving your wife for?


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

philvoid said:


> A former inmate of a Nazi concentration camp was visiting a friend who had shared the ordeal with him.
> "Have you forgiven the Nazis:: he asked his friend.
> "Yes."
> "Well, I haven't. I'm still consumed with hatred for them."
> "In that case," said his friend gently, "they still have you in prison"


Did the altruistic one who had forgiven the Nazis befriend them? Did he/she live with them? Were the Nazis still an active part of his life? Unless that is the case this absolutionist tale is not in any way analogous to your or any marriage. You can forgive a betrayer, you can still love a betrayer, but sometimes trust cannot be rebuilt. Marriages require many qualities to thrive. Love, trust, respect, sexual attraction, etc. I'm not saying you shouldn't attempt reconciliation with your wife. But you should do your utmost to try to make sure it is successful. Each person on these forums has experience. Each person's experience differs inasmuch as each situation is unique. But there are commonalities, a general script if you will, that allows one to glean helpful advice from others that have traveled the road you now find yourself on. Sometimes the advice is hard to hear. Frankly it seems the most useful advice is the most difficult to accept. So please, for your sake, for your wife's sake, for your children's sake, do not dismiss anything you read here out of hand. Reconciliation is like walking a tightrope. One misstep and you fall. The advice you ignore might be just what you need in order to hang on.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

I didn't come here here to help anyone. i came here for guidance. I offer up quotes relative to forgiveness because they help me on my path. You declaring that i should stop comparing my wife to the Nazi's clearly shows me how obtuse and anemic you are! You declaring how much more wiser and successful you are is also an example of ineptitude; are you trying to compensate for something. The man who boasts most often is the man who tragically has nothing to boast about!

The beast you reference in your last post is not a beast.......she is a person that has made a terrible mistake. She is not something that needs to be euthanized. She deserves mercy and grace; two elements I see that you lack. Your barbaric life approach is minimalistic at best. The bigger hearts will prevail here while you continue to consume the world that you consider your prey. Ultimately, people like you only see the tree! I am seeking guidance from those that see the forest!


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Esther Perel: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved | TED Talk | TED.com

especially from 21:30 in. But the whole thing is advised.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

philvoid said:


> I didn't come here here to help anyone. i came here for guidance. I offer up quotes relative to forgiveness because they help me on my path. You declaring that i should stop comparing my wife to the Nazi's clearly shows me how obtuse and anemic you are! You declaring how much more wiser and successful you are is also an example of ineptitude; are you trying to compensate for something. The man who boasts most often is the man who tragically has nothing to boast about!
> 
> The beast you reference in your last post is not a beast.......she is a person that has made a terrible mistake. She is not something that needs to be euthanized. She deserves mercy and grace; two elements I see that you lack. Your barbaric life approach is minimalistic at best. The bigger hearts will prevail here while you continue to consume the world that you consider your prey. Ultimately, people like you only see the tree! I am seeking guidance from those that see the forest!


When walking through the wilderness, you need to be able to see the forest AND the trees.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

philvoid said:


> I didn't come here here to help anyone. i came here for guidance. I offer up quotes relative to forgiveness because they help me on my path. You declaring that i should stop comparing my wife to the Nazi's clearly shows me how obtuse and anemic you are! You declaring how much more wiser and successful you are is also an example of ineptitude; are you trying to compensate for something. The man who boasts most often is the man who tragically has nothing to boast about!
> 
> The beast you reference in your last post is not a beast.......she is a person that has made a terrible mistake. She is not something that needs to be euthanized. She deserves mercy and grace; two elements I see that you lack. Your barbaric life approach is minimalistic at best. The bigger hearts will prevail here while you continue to consume the world that you consider your prey. Ultimately, people like you only see the tree! I am seeking guidance from those that see the forest!


A mistake is buying the wrong brand of toothpaste. Infidelity is a choice. That's the first change in your thought process you should make if you want your reconciliation to be successful.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Philvoid, your wife is not evil but she has proven that she can and will hurt you in the worst way possible. Unless and until she completely unburden's her soul and empties her bucket of all toxic thoughts and feelings she can and will betray you again. Trying to reconcile with a spouse that holds on to even a little piece of their infidelity will doom your recovery to failure. That is not what any of us here want and I dare say it is not what you or your wife want either. What has she or is she currently changing about herself that leads you to believe she will not betray you again?


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Thank you for that video clip. It hit many points


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> Thank you for that video clip. It hit many points


Do you understand what your spouse has not done for you?

Do you understand what you need to know and do to heal?

Do you understand that you have had your head in the sand?

I say that from a guy that's _been there and done that_ man. With compassion. You need to get clear and move forward.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

She is going to counseling
She journals everyday
She is much more patient with me when I fall into the rabbit hole
She no longer mentions a timetable to get over it
She avoids my triggers and even asks me if I am being triggered
She is sincerely apologetic
She has cut off friends that were in collusion with the affair
She has written letters to other people in her circle of influence about what she has done
She has come clean with her father and her daughter
She apologized face to face to my mother for what she has done
She makes everything perfectly accessible - her cell phone, email accounts, credit card statements
She went out and bought a brand new bed
She has thrown away every single towel and replaced it
She is accountable to me about where she is, who she is with and alerts me if she thinks she is going to be late
She has committed to a certain agreement - If I call her cell and she does not pick up and then I call her job and she does not pick up, my next phone call is to the locksmith


----------



## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

“Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.” 
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> She is going to counseling
> She journals everyday
> She is much more patient with me when I fall into the rabbit hole
> She no longer mentions a timetable to get over it
> ...


All of this is good, man. Except one thing that I really have a hangup about:



> She is sincerely apologetic


How can you be apologetic when you don't know what she's apologizing for? You say she had a ONS, but never admitted it.

Is that not an issue for you?

What about the affair? Do you have the details that you need? Do you know (in order to calm your questions) what she did with him? More importantly, why she did it?

What is different in her that it will not happen again - given that it's happened twice (or hundreds of times depending on how you look at it)?

And I don't mean you policing her. I mean her policing herself.

I see lots of good stuff here, man. I just see a crucial piece missing.


----------



## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

philvoid said:


> I didn't come here here to help anyone. i came here for guidance. I offer up quotes relative to forgiveness because they help me on my path. You declaring that i should stop comparing my wife to the Nazi's clearly shows me how obtuse and anemic you are! You declaring how much more wiser and successful you are is also an example of ineptitude; are you trying to compensate for something. The man who boasts most often is the man who tragically has nothing to boast about!
> 
> The beast you reference in your last post is not a beast.......she is a person that has made a terrible mistake. She is not something that needs to be euthanized. She deserves mercy and grace; two elements I see that you lack. Your barbaric life approach is minimalistic at best. The bigger hearts will prevail here while you continue to consume the world that you consider your prey. Ultimately, people like you only see the tree! I am seeking guidance from those that see the forest!



Do you realize how pretentious and condescending you sound ? You post some half ass information about your situation and ask people for advice and attack them when you don't agree. You also keep posting some useless passive aggressive quote. 

Why don't you post some proper information about your situation and follow some basic forum etiquette ?


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

What's the deal with the towels?


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

I don't see the lie i am telling myself. i am basing my progress on demonstration and NOT shallow words. As long as she willingly works on herself everyday and demonstrates a change in her attitude and accepts her defects and is putting effort into eliminating those defects, where is the lie? I will only invest in actions and not words. Only actions will bring into place the components necessary to rebuild trust and make new bricks for our foundation. If she can stay steady to that plan, I feel safer. As long as there is change, there is a chance. Thank you!


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

philvoid said:


> She is going to counseling
> She journals everyday
> She is much more patient with me when I fall into the rabbit hole
> She no longer mentions a timetable to get over it
> ...


These are all excellent! Two questions. Has she come completely clean about her affair? Has she answered all your questions and do you believe her answers are truthful and complete?

Has she discovered what it was in her that allowed her to betray her marriage? What steps has she taken in counseling or outside counseling to address that personality trait so that she can insulate herself from going down that path again?


----------



## dental (Apr 16, 2014)

This is a bit of a strange thread. OP want guidance, not help. OP is proclaiming the most obvious platitudes, the kind that can be read on esoteric calendars. Every critical post is met with more obvious platitudes, with which OP ,most likely gets the feeling that he won the argument. The tone of his post is not that of a man that seeks guidance. That tone is mostly humble, the person seeking guidance doesn't know and asks others who do know. During the thread things get cleared up, there's progress, I don't see that here. A bit of a ping-pong match in my eyes. But, to each his own, just an observation.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

philvoid said:


> I didn't come here here to help anyone. i came here for guidance. I offer up quotes relative to forgiveness because they help me on my path. You declaring that i should stop comparing my wife to the Nazi's clearly shows me how obtuse and anemic you are! You declaring how much more wiser and successful you are is also an example of ineptitude; are you trying to compensate for something. The man who boasts most often is the man who tragically has nothing to boast about!
> 
> The beast you reference in your last post is not a beast.......she is a person that has made a terrible mistake. She is not something that needs to be euthanized. She deserves mercy and grace; two elements I see that you lack. Your barbaric life approach is minimalistic at best. The bigger hearts will prevail here while you continue to consume the world that you consider your prey. Ultimately, people like you only see the tree! I am seeking guidance from those that see the forest!


I actually wasn't referring to your wife as the beast in my illustration.

Her infidelity and your continued pain from her behavior is the beast in your circumstance.

I don't have to yell at all to share with you that I have been with my wife for 24 years, 20 married, with a very healthy romance, sex life and great communication and growth between us with both of us having avoided infidelity.

I have also been heavily involved in family/marriage ministry for nearly twenty years and have helped marriages recover that literally everyone else, including other ministers, had declared hopeless.

I probably have some insight that is worth sharing as well as many other posters here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

I made her get rid of all the bath and pool towels because I didn't want anything around that may have touched his ass and b*lls. And made her pay for it all cash from her next paycheck


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Why did she have multiple infidelities? What was she looking for? What is your marriage not giving her, if anything?

How long did the long affair last? What did they do together? Did they do things together that she felt she couldn't do with you? Or didn't want to? 

How did they go away together without you knowing? 

Why won't she come clean about the ONS?

What's the commonality between the guy from the ONS and the affair guy? 

Why didn't she leave you for the affair guy?

Has there been other affairs? Do you know for sure?

Here's the thing, man. This wasn't a one time deal. I suspect the ONS gave her a massive thrill or rush. That she found long-term with the affair guy.

That kind of thing is addictive because it can't be satiated, and can't be replicated within a marriage. The thrill of the unknown and taboo and all that...

Well, this kind of thing doesn't usually just stop. I mean, she's doing a lot right, but the fact that she won't come clean about the ONS means that she can't admit it to you or herself... and means that there could be others. Even right now.

Honestly, with a serial cheat like you have, I find it more likely that you form a stable, yet open, relationship than one that goes back to monogamy knowing that you are married to someone that may just not be hard wired for it.

I know that you love her. I know you respect her. I just don't know that you actually know what you're dealing with.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> I made her get rid of all the bath and pool towels because I didn't want anything around that may have touched his ass and b*lls. And made her pay for it all cash from her next paycheck


So she ****ed the affair guy in your home?


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

See, now this I can receive! Initially, I felt bullied and felt no compassion. It sounded to me that you just wanted me to rip her heart out and rule out any form of reconciliation My apologies for the previous rant.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

yep


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> See, now this I can receive! Initially, I felt bullied and felt no compassion. It sounded to me that you just wanted me to rip her heart out and rule out any form of reconciliation My apologies for the previous rant.


OK, looking forward to your answers.


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

philvoid said:


> She is being remorseful. She is apologizing daily! She has made changes in here life that adhere to being honorable, transparent and genuine, I know the entire episode for her is something she wishes never would have happened. *She realizes loss and accepts the ramifications of her actions.* She knows our life has changed forever. But that does not mean that the change needs to be negative - change can alos be beneficial as long as she continues to grow and heal. She provides me daily affirmations of what she will do and how she will process moving forward. She by no means is a reclamation project. All of these things provide me hope and I am willing to hold on to that. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD!


OK, I'll bite. What has she lost that she didn't actually throw away and what have the ramifications been for her actions? 

You're still with her and you seem to have no difficulty doing the work of shoving her steaming pile under the carpet. Hell, you're even covering the stench for her by referencing a bunch of contextually meaningless, febreezey quotes.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

marduk said:


> What's the deal with the towels?


I know, right?

I saw that and thought, "HOLY CRAP how often was she 'wiping off'...?!?"


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

She has come completely clean about the affair. It took some time but she is at a point where when i ask her a question, she does not dodge or get fidgety. 
Don't know where you thought about the ONS stand? Maybe I miscommunicated? this is the only affair that has ever taken place. 
I feel good. I know we are moving in the right direction. Just have some triggers that need address.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> She has come completely clean about the affair. It took some time but she is at a point where when i ask her a question, she does not dodge or get fidgety.
> Don't know where you thought about the ONS stand? Maybe I miscommunicated? this is the only affair that has ever taken place.
> I feel good. I know we are moving in the right direction. Just have some triggers that need address.


Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I thought there was mention of a previous incident but perhaps I'm thinking of someone else.

OK. 

Answer the previous questions anyway...

And I'll add some more.

Why did it take 2 years to come clean about the affair?

Have you both been tested for STDs?

Why does she think she deserves to stay in this marriage?


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Why did it take 2 years to come clean about the affair? - to make a long story short, i discovered the affair. She did not deny it for 2 yrs. But she was always involved in some type of justification, rationilzation, defending,. minimizing. Saying stuff like why is it taking you so long OR when are you going to stop asking me about it. etc. In the beginning, she would just tell me stuff just b/c she knew she needed to tell me stuff. Now, she of her own volition comes to me and tells me pieces that she either forgot OR did not want to tell in fear of how i would react. Today, I believe I know most of it. Will I ever know all of it - probably not!

Have you both been tested for STDs? Yes

Why does she think she deserves to stay in this marriage? She has worked heavily on her guilt. I believe the level of guilt that ran thru her, kept her in fear. A guilty mind is an unkind mind. Through all her counseling, she has come to accept what she has done and realizes that she is not a bad person, she just made a bad choice


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

marduk said:


> Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I thought there was mention of a previous incident but perhaps I'm thinking of someone else.


You were thinking of this guy...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/290473-need-advice-today-language.html

Every now and again all these threads seem to run together.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Can't Understand Normal Thinking


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

philvoid said:


> Can't Understand Normal Thinking


:lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol:


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

OK, I'll ask again.

Do you have the details that you need? Do you know (in order to calm your questions) what she did with him? More importantly, why she did it?

What is different in her that it will not happen again?

Do not say guilt. Sexy excitement > guilt over the long haul - decades to come. 

Why did she have the affair? Why this guy? Why did she screw him in your house? What's the message with that?

What did she do with him? How many times? What did she like to do with him? Not like? Why?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm also interested in your OP.

If you are wired like me or another poster called "the guy" you would be fine by going to the places your wife went with OM and doing everything with her sexually and otherwise that she did with OM. It is reclaiming your territory and does work for some men.

It could also possibly work if you just need to fill in all the gaps your wife caused by having sex and romance with someone else. It would include you in a part of her life that should have been yours but she kept secret.

It can be healing for both of you but you have to know yourself and what you would be good with.

Others don't want to know anything because knowledge that an affair took place was enough for them. Although their wayward spouses usually need to unload their burden to a professional in those cases.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Got it. You forgave her before you knew what to forgive. Now you are conflicted because of the new information and are using platitudes to deflect the new pain feel. You are trying to convince yourself you chose the right path and the quotes are a form of deflection. Many betrayed spouses come here like this and they snap at everyone who disagrees with their position.

Calm down read all advice and use what you feel works.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

I know I am not wired that way! A piece of me died that day when i found out she was in Vegas with him. She initially told me she was going to Vegas with some mutual friends - I had no objection b/c i had no clue. Things got weird on the second night when she gave me an excuse about the bad reception and we wouldn't be able to give ourselves our traditional good nights.That's when i sensed something was up. So the next morning, I spoofed called her friend that she supposedly went with and lo and behold her friend answered the phone. My next move was to text her b/c there was an emergency at the house. She stepped out of her room to call me and i asked her how are things going with "Meagan" (her friend). She said they got all torn up the night before and that she is still sleeping in the room. That's when I asked her "then why is Meagan answering her house phone??????
You know how the rest went


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ok. Then can you help us understand your triggers?

Give us some examples and lead us through retelling an episode or two so we can better understand what you are going through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Triggers:
going to vegas
going to restaurants they have been to
hanging out with friends that colluded with the affair
knowing he's been in my house; crapping on my toilet, using my shower, sitting on my couch, having sex in my bed (the bed issue has been resolved b/c I forced her to buy a brand new one CASH - her own money not ours!)


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

She hasn't eliminated her friends that colluded in her affair?

Those are called toxic friends and need to be gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

What is the possibility of moving or remodeling/refurbishing your home.

BTW. Her allowing OM to live in your house and take her in your bed is extremely hard to overcome.

How is she helping to undo that damage to your satisfaction?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

philvoid said:


> Triggers:
> going to vegas
> going to restaurants they have been to
> hanging out with friends that colluded with the affair
> knowing he's been in my house; crapping on my toilet, using my shower, sitting on my couch, *having sex in my bed* (the bed issue has been resolved b/c I forced her to buy a brand new one CASH - her own money not ours!)


:surprise: the ultimate disrespect to you and your marriage SMH that one would be a deal breaker for me...oh boy...


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

She has cut off contact with one of her friends that colluded with the affair. The other one is a bit more complicated b/c its a woman that works in her office and cannot be replaced. In that regard, i had her write this woman a letter about the whole nightmare and then her and I had a subsequent discussion. She was extremely apologetic and cried to me. Ultimately, she was kept in the dark and did not know the extent of the relationship. 
The OM in my house continuously haunts me! getting rid of the bed and all the bath and pool towels gave me some relief. I also had her throw out all of her bras and panties and buy new ones again with her own money. Can't really move b/c the house is worth less than the mortgage - everybody is in that boat! i have done some remodeling and it does help - kind of makes it mine again.
I know I will never forget, but based on what she is displaying to me now, I have the desire to forgive. 
We have rules in place that help me feel safe and she has not objected to a single thing. 
Is there more i can do?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

philvoid said:


> She has cut off contact with one of her friends that colluded with the affair. The other one is a bit more complicated b/c its a woman that works in her office and cannot be replaced. In that regard, i had her write this woman a letter about the whole nightmare and then her and I had a subsequent discussion. She was extremely apologetic and cried to me. Ultimately, she was kept in the dark and did not know the extent of the relationship.
> The OM in my house continuously haunts me! getting rid of the bed and all the bath and pool towels gave me some relief. I also had her throw out all of her bras and panties and buy new ones again with her own money. Can't really move b/c the house is worth less than the mortgage - everybody is in that boat! i have done some remodeling and it does help - kind of makes it mine again.
> I know I will never forget, but based on what she is displaying to me now, I have the desire to forgive.
> We have rules in place that help me feel safe and she has not objected to a single thing.
> *Is there more i can do?*


Let's get back to the questions that you asked in your initial post to this thread...



philvoid said:


> The ultimate question I have is, if she went away for a weekend with her lover, let's say to Las Vegas, should I in my recovery ever be comfortable going to Las Vegas with her again?


That's all up to you. If YOU _want_ to go, and you feel you can handle it, then go. Just be sure to mitigate the potential for any triggers -- to the degree possible, anyway -- by not staying in the same hotel, eating at the same restaurants, seeing the same shows, etc.

Then again, having to plan a vacation that explicitly excludes any such venues might be a huge trigger in and of itself.

Anyway, if YOU don't want to go, or you don't feel you can deal w/ it, then don't go.

Simple.



philvoid said:


> Do I have the right to set parameters around my mental and emotional well being?


Absolutely, yes.


----------



## sammy7111 (Apr 19, 2014)

Devorce her because if she has to live by rules she's going to hate u one day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

philvoid said:


> Triggers:
> going to vegas
> going to restaurants they have been to
> hanging out with friends that colluded with the affair
> knowing he's been in my house; crapping on my toilet, using my shower, sitting on my couch, having sex in my bed (the bed issue has been resolved b/c I forced her to buy a brand new one CASH - her own money not ours!)


Some of these are fairly straight forward. If you are the type of man that confronts things head on then go with her to these places and make them yours. If you are the more cerebral type that prefers to let events play out until you have to deal with them then just avoid these places until you feel it necessary to do otherwise. That said, about the house, wow. Phil, I really feel for you on that one brother. Other than move I honestly cannot think of any way to deal with those triggers. I know myself pretty well (after years of therapy) and I don't think I could recover trust that has been broken. I commend you for the work you've done, the work you are currently doing, and the work yet to come. But knowing that this POSOM was in your house, your bed, your bathroom etc. I cannot even fathom how you are coping with that. You're certainly stronger than I am in that regard. All I can do is pray that you can find some semblance of peace.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Sounds like your on a good track. How bad does the coworker trigger you and can your wife get a different job?

How does your wife handle it when you do trigger? Do you try and keep it quiet or do you let her know what is happening?

If she is properly equipped, she can be fantastic for helping you during a trigger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Would your two consider a sort of reset. Remarriage, starting from the ground up so to speak.

I had success with one couple by making them start over with the basics. They had to make all new pathways and a new foundation for their marriage.

It was like the old relationship just had to be thrown away and start a new one with a better foundation.

Sometimes too much damage is done to continue with the same foundation.

They had to start dating again and the whole deal. They didn't divorce or move away from each other.

They are doing quite well several years later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

The wife in this case was the cheater and had sex in a marriage bed.

Same deal with selling the bed and getting a new one.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Would your two consider a sort of reset. Remarriage, starting from the ground up so to speak.
> 
> I had success with one couple by making them start over with the basics. They had to make all new pathways and a new foundation for their marriage.
> 
> ...


In the group I used to work with this was also done with one couple although they actually took the next step and did the divorce/remarry thing. They're still together and doing well.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

philvoid said:


> She has cut off contact with one of her friends that colluded with the affair. The other one is a bit more complicated b/c its a woman that works in her office and cannot be replaced. In that regard, i had her write this woman a letter about the whole nightmare and then her and I had a subsequent discussion. She was extremely apologetic and cried to me. Ultimately, she was kept in the dark and did not know the extent of the relationship.
> The OM in my house continuously haunts me! getting rid of the bed and all the bath and pool towels gave me some relief. I also had her throw out all of her bras and panties and buy new ones again with her own money. Can't really move b/c the house is worth less than the mortgage - everybody is in that boat! i have done some remodeling and it does help - kind of makes it mine again.
> I know I will never forget, but based on what she is displaying to me now, I have the desire to forgive.
> We have rules in place that help me feel safe and she has not objected to a single thing.
> Is there more i can do?


Yes, there is. Ceremonies like smudging might help. 
Sage and Smudge - What is Smudging - How to Smudge

Clean the OM's negativity from your home.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

philvoid said:


> She has written letters to other people in her circle of influence about what she has done
> She has come clean with her father and her daughter
> She apologized face to face to my mother for what she has done
> She makes everything perfectly accessible - her cell phone, email accounts, credit card statements


 Just yesterday, in Post #5 of this thread you stated "i have told my closest friends (2) and my mom b/c i was in such anguish. the fact that i told my mom cause much grief in my wife but i needed to release my pain - if i can live with this, she can live with that! You think a poly would remove all doubt?" Asking about a poly "to remove all doubt" indicates that you are not 100% convinced that she has totally come clean with you. She needs to work to remove this doubt. Has she done a time line?


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Thank you! It has NOT been easy!
The co-worker based on her remorse and actually crying to me was a BIG help. She was clueless and believed the ugly picture my wife had to painted in order to condone her incrroigble behavior. I have limited contact with her and do feel like I have that piece under control.
When i am triggered, I let her know right away. It's better for me to express immediately what is going on in my head or else things just tend to pile up and get too big to handle and I wind up stuck in a rabbit hole for weeks. Her reaction is comforting like grabbing my hand or turning to me and saying something like "YOU ARE THE ONLY MAN FOR ME" or "I know I have hurt you badly. I live today hoping one day you realize that you made the right choice". 
Reset........maybe? But seems awkward IMO. I just loved what we were before this nightmare occurred and we are making good healthy strides. Lately, I have more good days than bad. This whole going to Vegas thing was just creating some tension in me and wanted to p[properly handle it.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Philvoid--has she ever said what prompted her to have the affair in the first place? What did she feel was missing in the relationship, or in her own life that caused her to look outside the marriage?


----------



## eastsouth2000 (Jul 21, 2015)

do you have children?

inviting the om to your home is awful. having sex on the marital bed. not even the lowest of the low would go there.
affair on the marital bed is reserved for the worst of the worst.

Even the most liberal of open marriages. the marital bed is hollowed ground. it is protected by an invisible for of understanding that this place is sacred.

the marital bed is the most scared of all places for the couples.
defiling the marital bed is a tall order for forgiveness let alone reconciliation.

you will always trigger. so long as live in that house. it will always be there.

an affair in hotel/motel is different level
an affair on your couch in different level
an affair on your spare bed room is different level

there is nothing that can be as awful as having an affair on the marital bed.
just makes me sad.
you have to be more than a man to forgive your wife for that.



philvoid said:


> The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
> 
> Mahatma Gandhi


Its one thing to forgive. But its another to forget.
Its one thing to forgive. But its another to reconcile.
Its one thing to forgive her for her affair, but to stay married is different.
______________________________________________________________
Need to clarify something, so we can get a better pciture

How long have been together with your wife?
How long where you married?
How young are you and your wife?
Both of you have Jobs?
Any children?
How did you come about discovering her affair?
Her first reaction was denial,
What caused her to start the affair?
What caused her to stop the affair?
What happened to the OM?
Have you spoken to (Family Of Origin) FOO about this on both sides?
Have you spoken to you and her friends about this?
Has she gone to IC or MC?
have you gone to IC or MC?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
How could she do it in the marital home and the marital bed?
did you ever ask her how or why? what was running through her mind?


----------



## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

philvoid said:


> She has cut off contact with one of her friends that colluded with the affair. The other one is a bit more complicated b/c its a woman that works in her office and cannot be replaced. In that regard, i had her write this woman a letter about the whole nightmare and then her and I had a subsequent discussion. She was extremely apologetic and cried to me. Ultimately, she was kept in the dark and did not know the extent of the relationship.
> The OM in my house continuously haunts me! getting rid of the bed and all the bath and pool towels gave me some relief. I also had her throw out all of her bras and panties and buy new ones again with her own money. Can't really move b/c the house is worth less than the mortgage - everybody is in that boat! i have done some remodeling and it does help - kind of makes it mine again.
> I know I will never forget, but based on what she is displaying to me now, I have the desire to forgive.
> We have rules in place that help me feel safe and she has not objected to a single thing.
> Is there more i can do?



There is one more important thing to get rid of. And you what it is.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

please indulge me.......what is it?


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

philvoid said:


> please indulge me.......what is it?


 I am guessing your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

@OP: When posting a reply to another post, please use the quote feature so that we know for certain what you are replying to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> Philvoid--has she ever said what prompted her to have the affair in the first place? What did she feel was missing in the relationship, or in her own life that caused her to look outside the marriage?


We keep asking this buddy, and you keep ignoring it.

Is it that you don't know, or you don't want to say?


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

marduk said:


> We keep asking this buddy, and you keep ignoring it.
> 
> Is it that you don't know, or you don't want to say?


Or maybe he does not want to know.....


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

marduk said:


> We keep asking this buddy, and you keep ignoring it.
> 
> Is it that you don't know, or you don't want to say?


The 800lb elephant in the room.
And the most important question.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

tom67 said:


> The 800lb elephant in the room.
> And the most important question.


This is why I'd need to know the details. To know what I'm dealing with and why she did it. 

Without this, there would be no ability to trust, because it wouldn't be trust - just blind faith.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

TRy said:


> @OP: When posting a reply to another post, please use the quote feature so that we know for certain what you are replying to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gotcha


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

marduk said:


> We keep asking this buddy, and you keep ignoring it.
> 
> Is it that you don't know, or you don't want to say?


What she has communicated to me is that we were having a string of arguments about various life topics and she felt like she was not being heard. She felt I was monopolizing her feelings. She claims that she went outside of the relationship to have someone hear her; someone that would make her feel that her emotions counted


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

philvoid said:


> What she has communicated to me is that we were having a string of arguments about various life topics and she felt like she was not being heard. She felt I was monopolizing her feelings. She claims that she went outside of the relationship to have someone hear her; someone that would make her feel that her emotions counted


Seems too easy man.

My best bud has a saying... "easy confessions from a guilty conscience."

Which means even though it might be somewhat true on one level, there's a lot there that isn't being said, and it's way too easy that it's all your fault.

At some point, she ****ed the dude. A bunch of times, right? Which didn't have a lot to do with being heard, right? And being heard by a man instead of one of her girlfriends?

This is the tip of the iceberg, man. There's a lot more behind it than that. Like her being validated, her being woo'd, her being pursued, maybe.

And even if this is her reason for having an affair, what's going to happen the next time you have an argument and don't take her side? Well, she may just go and find someone that will take her side, right? Someone with a ****.

Which has a lot to do with how she likes to settle arguments, perhaps. The full nuclear "I'm going to **** someone else unless you agree with me," maybe?

You aren't nearly at the bottom of this rabbit hole.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I just posted on your other thread that she should not ever ask to go to Vegas knowing she was destroying her marriage there and realizing it is a trigger for you.

She wrecked Vegas for herself if she values you in her life.

You are not a barbarian like me or the guy. That doesn't lessen your value. All of our gifts as humans are needed and your wiring is just as valuable and worthy of respect as mine.

If Vegas is painful for you then Vegas should be out!

Your wife should not have any question about why knowing she is the cause.

Also, as previously asked, has she fully examined herself to identify what her flaw was that allowed her to think disgusting behavior was desirable?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

philvoid said:


> What she has communicated to me is that we were having a string of arguments about various life topics and she felt like she was not being heard. She felt I was monopolizing her feelings. She claims that she went outside of the relationship to have someone hear her; someone that would make her feel that her emotions counted


Obviously regardless of what the martial problems were it was not okay for her to go outside the relationship for any reason right? Hopefully she acknowledged this and agrees she needs to discover why she made that choice. What has she done specifically to address this character flaw? You're an intelligent guy. You realize unless this is addressed the next time you are having similar issues she will react the same way. Don't get me wrong. You both need to address the real or perceived lack of emotional support she claims was present. But marriage is not always a smooth path. She cannot go outside the relationship whenever the marriage hits an inevitable rocky stretch.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

philvoid said:


> What she has communicated to me is that we were having a string of arguments about various life topics and she felt like she was not being heard. She felt I was monopolizing her feelings. She claims that she went outside of the relationship to have someone hear her; someone that would make her feel that her emotions counted


See a psychiatrist then. These folks hear all the time. Find another and conducting an affair was not the answer to her tale of woe. This reasoning from you W only keeps the door open for anything else she might like to do as a result of you not hearing her.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ok. So she defiled herself and your home because she was looking for emotional validation.

How has she corrected that flaw in her thinking and character?

She does realize that vile behavior only lowered her and destroyed those she claimed to love?

Has she cheated in past relationships?

Exploring these items is vital to helping her change herself for the better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S. I don't think I ever heard what happened to OM?

Was he confronted, exposed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Also, as previously asked, has she fully examined herself to identify what her flaw was that allowed her to think disgusting behavior was desirable?

I truly believe her. She is not a run around. Outside of this mightmare, we are tremendous - we have commonality, same desires, same likes, same plans for future. She is adamant about her reason and obviously she handled it poorly. What she thought was her solution ended up screwing things up forever. She had plenty of choices and she picked the worst one.
If i had no money, I would get a 2nd job OR cut down on expenses OR cut coupons OR etc etc. I WOULD NOT ROB A BANK!!!!!!!


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Philvoid--I'm not on board with the "dump her" crowd in this situation. It sounds like she's legitimately doing the things she needs to do for reconciliation, albeit a little late in the game. 

For a real reconciliation to be successful, I'd HIGHLY recommend fully exploring whatever the rift was that prompted her to go down that road in the first place. A good MC might be helpful in that regards. I believe it's possible that she feels she IS being upfront with you about her motivations, but only because she hasn't really dug into them herself.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

Has she cheated in past relationships?

She also did cheat with her previous husband. But I also cheated on my 1st wife


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> P.S. I don't think I ever heard what happened to OM?
> 
> Was he confronted, exposed?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I exposed them both.
I confronted him initially by way of phone.
when things did not stop on his end, I physically confronted him at the local bowling alley where I know he hangs out


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

philvoid said:


> Has she cheated in past relationships?
> 
> She also did cheat with her previous husband. But I also cheated on my 1st wife


I thought that was a good probability.

This needs full exploration to find her flaw and change herself. Hard work but worth it.

She has shown a pattern of dealing with marriage issues by cheating. Maybe you have faced and killed your demons.

After all, you weren't the offender here.

Cheating has been an option for her in both her marriages. She needs to explore and eliminate the flaw in her that allows that option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

philvoid said:


> A former inmate of a Nazi concentration camp was visiting a friend who had shared the ordeal with him.
> "Have you forgiven the Nazis:: he asked his friend.
> "Yes."
> "Well, I haven't. I'm still consumed with hatred for them."
> "In that case," said his friend gently, "they still have you in prison"


This is crazy. NOBODY has forgiven the Nazis, this is why they are outlawed in Germany. This is why the US spent so much time and money with trials of the top Nazi brass. To show them the rule of law and to bring out as much evidence about / against them as possible.

A 94 year old SS guard was just put in jail a couple of months.

Just who the HE!! has forgiven the Nazis..... since you want to keep using them as an example.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is crazy. NOBODY has forgiven the Nazis, this is why they are outlawed in Germany. This is why the US spent so much time and money with trials of the top Nazi brass. To show them the rule of law and to bring out as much evidence about / against them as possible.
> 
> A 94 year old SS guard was just put in jail a couple of months.
> 
> Just who the HE!! has forgiven the Nazis..... since you want to keep using them as an example.


I used the story as an example of forgiveness NOT to exonerate Nazis. The story is an individualistic approach not a global outreach. I believe if you circle back to the genesis of the comment, you would have a different thought. Or maybe not. And btw, I only used the story once; you may have seen it a few times throughout the post, but my use was singular.


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I thought that was a good probability.
> 
> This needs full exploration to find her flaw and change herself. Hard work but worth it.
> 
> ...


Thx you! My thought process has only taken me so far! Our MC has not mentioned it once - guess too busy talking about the surface stuff. Maybe this is her poorly based coping mechanism and this needs more attention than anything else!!!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

philvoid said:


> Thx you! My thought process has only taken me so far! Our MC has not mentioned it once - guess too busy talking about the surface stuff. Maybe this is her poorly based coping mechanism and this needs more attention than anything else!!!


Well it seems you both love each other and you are willing to forgive her and stay married.

It would give you both confidence to know what the "demon" is in her life and banish it.

I think it would definitely help you with trusting her again and it might actually help with triggers moving forward.

Knowledge is power.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Well it seems you both love each other and you are willing to forgive her and stay married.
> 
> It would give you both confidence to know what the "demon" is in her life and banish it.
> 
> ...


I will definitely make this our next discussion point at MC!
Any recommended reading or other vehicles/tools/exercises you suggest I/HER/WE turn to?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

philvoid said:


> I will definitely make this our next discussion point at MC!
> Any recommended reading or other vehicles/tools/exercises you suggest I/HER/WE turn to?


Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley has some fantastic marriage building advice and tools.

His Needs Her Needs is also good as well as Love Busters all by Dr. Harley.

They may be marketed as affair books but I find his take on infidelity to be pretty bad.

The marriage advice in them along with the worksheets and tools for strengthening your marriage are excellent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## philvoid (Sep 16, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley has some fantastic marriage building advice and tools.
> 
> His Needs Her Needs is also good as well as Love Busters all by Dr. Harley.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all your help. I will check out what you have recommended and will update you on progress if that's OK w/you?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

philvoid said:


> Thanks for all your help. I will check out what you have recommended and will update you on progress if that's OK w/you?


No problem. Hoping for your progress and increasing health, individually and in your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

philvoid said:


> What she has communicated to me is that we were having a string of arguments about various life topics and she felt like she was not being heard. She felt I was monopolizing her feelings. She claims that she went outside of the relationship to have someone hear her; someone that would make her feel that her emotions counted


The old bull**** about "women have affairs for emotions" crap.

Why don't women like her actually admit that they also enjoyed the sex ? I mean, she went on honeymoon trip to Las Vegas with her OM. She had sex with OM in her family bed in her home..And the affair did not end until she was caught. How long was it before you caught her?

I am actually shocked with how many guys are swallowing the pill these days. Just think about what you must feel about her to do what she did to you. Not only f*ck her in your home while your wife is away working, but also to fly some women out of state on a mini sex vacation ? 


Phil, what are your current dealbreakers ? Would you divorce her if she contacts him again ?

Lets say she cheats again and is really remorseful. Can you work on R from there ?


----------



## babynology (Jun 29, 2015)

Hope you Enjoy a healthy married life.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Sorry, but I think most of this stuff is ridiculous. Things are ...............things. If you allow things and places to effect your well-being, it says more about you than it does about them. I mean.....where does it stop? Would you not go to a city, because your WS had his/her affair there? Would you not eat certain foods because your WS ate them with his/her AP? Would you destroy valuable property because your WS used that property to conduct their affair? Who does all of this hurt? YOU! If you truly want to heal from an affair, you need to realize that it is not .........things that caused the cheating......it was people.


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I think most of this stuff is ridiculous. Things are ...............things. If you allow things and places to effect your well-being, it says more about you than it does about them. I mean.....where does it stop? Would you not go to a city, because your WS had his/her affair there? Would you not eat certain foods because your WS ate them with his/her AP? Would you destroy valuable property because your WS used that property to conduct their affair? Who does all of this hurt? YOU! If you truly want to heal from an affair, you need to realize that it is not .........things that caused the cheating......it was people.


I disagree. Things/places/people can cause emotional trauma. If your child was hit by a drunk driver and killed on a certain HWY would you understand not wanting to ever drive on that HWY again? If you have a fight/flight reaction to places or people or things why subject yourself to any of that?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> I disagree. Things/places/people can cause emotional trauma. If your child was hit by a drunk driver and killed on a certain HWY would you understand not wanting to ever drive on that HWY again? If you have a fight/flight reaction to places or people or things why subject yourself to any of that?


I understand what you're saying, but don't agree with your solution. The problem isn't with the HWY, the problem is with the drunk driver and also within you. In order to recover from a trauma, you need to take back your life, not avoid living. My WS conducted her affair outside of the home, but if she HAD sex with the OM in it, would I sell or destroy my home? Why? What harm has my home ever done? Affairs are people...not places or things. In point of fact, one of the restaurants where my ex wife and her OM used to meet , has since become one of my favorite lunch spots.


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I think you're discounting the effects of trauma. I see people taking back their lives when they make a choice not to seek out places, people or things associated with the affair.

People have their breaking points...


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but don't agree with your solution. The problem isn't with the HWY, the problem is with the drunk driver and also within you. In order to recover from a trauma, you need to take back your life, not avoid living. My WS conducted her affair outside of the home, but if she HAD sex with the OM in it, would I sell or destroy my home? Why? What harm has my home ever done? Affairs are people...not places or things. In point of fact, one of the restaurants where my ex wife and her OM used to meet , has since become one of my favorite lunch spots.


Rookie, you and I are similar in that regard. We make the choice not to be held hostage by anything be it living or inanimate. We prefer to face things head on and resolve issues as they present themselves. However not everyone confronts these things the same way. Others need to gradually deal with problems as they find the strength. I guess I look at it as "whatever works for you" so long as it eventually gets handled.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, I'm a wounded combat veteran, and my wife had an affair, and I've been in a couple of car wrecks, one of which caused a fatality, so, no, I don't think I'm discounting trauma at all. I never said that it would be easy, only that it is necessary. If you practice avoidance, you are allowing places and things to control you. I prefer to control myself, and make these places and things conform to my wishes. Also blaming places and things for the actions of people seems very silly to me.


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

bfree said:


> I guess I look at it as "whatever works for you" so long as it eventually gets handled.


I agree with this!


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> , only that it is necessary. If you practice avoidance, you are allowing places and things to control you. I prefer to control myself, and make these places and things conform to my wishes. Also blaming places and things for the actions of people seems very silly to me.


It really isn't. If I went to a restaurant that my husband did his "dating" at I'd be thinking, this is where he was with HER. No, not going to do mental gymnastics. Done. Sometimes avoidance is easier. Nothing wrong with it.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Rookie, you and I are similar in that regard. We make the choice not to be held hostage by anything be it living or inanimate. We prefer to face things head on and resolve issues as they present themselves. However not everyone confronts these things the same way. Others need to gradually deal with problems as they find the strength. I guess I look at it as "whatever works for you" so long as it eventually gets handled.


Well, I do agree that sometimes it takes time to get over a traumatic experience. Avoidance might work for a temporary fix, but the trauma also must be faced at some point in time. Practicing avoidance delays true healing, in my opinion.
I used to race cars. I was in a race and rolled my car and was badly injured.. According to the concept of avoidance, I should have either burned the car or sold it and never gone back to that race track again. Who would that have helped? Would it have helped me heal from my injuries? Would it have made me forget the incident? None of these. The only thing it would have done is to give way to my fears. I don't see that as being helpful, at all.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> It really isn't. If I went to a restaurant that my husband did his "dating" at I'd be thinking, this is where he was with HER. No, not going to do mental gymnastics. Done. Sometimes avoidance is easier. Nothing wrong with it.


Well, if you want to allow your H's affair to control where you eat and what you do, that is your prerogative, and you are welcome to it. I agree that it is much easier to play the victim. I prefer to be in control of my own life, and the cheaters can conform to me.


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, if you want to allow your H's affair to control where you eat and what you do, that is your prerogative, and you are welcome to it. I agree that it is much easier to play the victim. I prefer to be in control of my own life, and the cheaters can conform to me.


Agree. I am choosing this to be in control of my own life. I'd rather have peace. If this is how I heal, so be it. We're all different.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

philvoid said:


> It has been 2 years of ups and downs. My wife initially refused to admit that what she had was even an affair. She would stand on her soap box and claim that it was not infidelity. Of course this denial only fanned the flames of my betrayal. For 2 years she has continued to lie to me, not willing to be transparent, minimize, defend and deflect.We are currently in counseling and we are making progress ONLY because she has turned 180 degrees and is now remorseful and full of shame.
> 
> The ultimate question I have is, if she went away for a weekend with her lover, let's say to Las Vegas, should I in my recovery ever be comfortable going to Las Vegas with her again? Do I have the right to set parameters around my mental and emotional well being?


I'd totally go to Vegas if I were you. Just not with her.


----------

