# To "R" or not to "R", that is the question.



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

How many times, here on TAM, have we seen people who have attempted to reconcile after infidelity, only to fail? How many times have we seen people who have divorced after infidelity, who wished that they had tried to reconcile? The answer is "Too many" to both questions.
This thread is about the most important decision of all. The decision to R or D. This decision is made by BOTH the WS and the BS. A lot has been written about HOW to R, or HOW to D. But what goes into the decision , itself? 
I am interested in both sides, those who chose to R and those who chose to D and what factors lead you to make that choice. Plus, were you the BS or WS and did your SO agree with your decision or not.
As background, Some of you are aware of my situation. I immediately chose divorce, then 2 1/2 years afterwards, we attempted to reconcile. We have since separated , permanently, but both feel that our reconciliation was successful. 
What are your stories? How did you come to your decision?


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> We have since separated , permanently, but both *feel that our reconciliation was successful*.


How so?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Reconciliation means different things to different people. We were able to re-acquire love and respect for the other person, and ensure that the affair and it's aftermath would not be an issue in our family, in the future.


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## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> How so?


Maybe they split up a second time for other reasons.

Personally, I would never try an R again in future relationships that involved infidelity.

Its too much and impossible to forget


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

My betrayed partner hardly ever comes onto TAM, so I guess I'll try to give a short answer for both of us.

I was the wayward. I approached my partner about reconciling nearly a year ago, after she finally moved out. She moved out because we had already been separated for a while, and things between us just kept getting worse. We were both angry all the time, and didn't really see a way back from that. I thought I could make myself be okay with that. I spent a long time working on it. I tried to steel myself to those feelings of loss, telling myself it was already over and I couldn't do anything to change or fix it. 

Leading up to her moving out, while we were still living together but separated, she was going out with people (as "just friends"), and I responded to a "poke" from one of my OWs (we had been out of touch for a while). I thought maybe this OW could be my shield and anesthesia against the pain of everything falling apart with DS (my partner from whom I was separated). Not that it worked all that well, but at least it was a distraction. For a few months, we each continued on separately with our other people, me feeling angry and hurt every time DS came back with a smile from being with one of her "friends" she'd met on the dating site, and her having her heart crushed a bit more every time I talked about the OW and whether or not I should hook up with her. It was like some horrible war of attrition. Then DS found an apartment. I hadn't really believed it would happen, somehow.

The minute she was gone from that house, the reality of everything crashed down on my head. My soul, my heart, became an empty void. My heart ached so badly to see the vacant rooms, her empty parking spot. I thought I was empty before, but without her, nothing mattered at all. Instead of having an arm ripped off, it was like my entire body was just torn in two. I cried. And cried. Thought about suicide constantly. I couldn't think about anything else, couldn't even keep up my end of a phone conversation with the OW anymore. I started going over all the things I had said and done wrong, all the things that had hurt DS over the years, everything. How hard I had worked during our separation at trying to act like I wasn't hurting and was fine with it all, and how I kept showing her that I had "options" just like she did, just so she wouldn't think I was an unwanted "loser". But I WAS the loser. When she left, I couldn't pretend anymore, not even to myself. I realized I couldn't live with leaving things that way, with not turning myself inside out and doing everything in my power to TRY to make a place and a me that she could MAYBE come back to. I only wanted to be with her. No one else would do. Not all the adoration and validation from other people in the world could make being without her ok or bearable. But I was afraid to ask for a few weeks, because it really seemed beyond stupid to me, and very too-little-too-late (understatement). I was so ashamed.

When I worked up the nerve to ask her about R, her first response was negative. She said she just couldn't go back to how things were and survive that. She couldn't even believe I "suddenly" felt that way (but what she didn't realize is that I had been trying hard to not only NOT show her my pain, but to project apathy/a casual attitude - I felt I had to hide my vulnerability from her at all costs). She said that I was still the only person she wanted to be with, she just wasn't able to anymore. She felt that she couldn't replace me, but at the same time, she didn't want to go back to the hell of our relationship.

After a lot of talking about my intentions to change and do things differently, she decided to give me a chance to show her that I could change and be someone who wasn't destructive for her to be around. She said therapy before anything, so I went, even though I hated therapy and therapists. I told her I'd do whatever it took, and I meant it. This was not R, mind you, but more an evaluation period - we were still separated. After she was satisfied that the changes were stable and we had managed to get to a point at which a significant amount of our interactions were positive, she decided to R with me. (This was about 8 months after my initial proposal to R, and after 1.5 years of separation.)

The thing that made both of us fight to work through the devastation I caused and try to make something new and worthwhile was that we both feel the other cannot be replaced, and is our best match. She is also aware that my disorder factored into my destructive behavior and the EAs, and that we both contributed to the relationship hell. (She later found out she has definite psychological issues and possibly a disorder as well.) We definitely have similarities in our backgrounds and problems. I know a lot of people feel there's no problem swapping a partner out and finding someone else who fits x amount of criteria, but it's not that easy, at least not for us. The things we love about each other, we haven't really found in other people, only in the smallest bits and pieces. But it is the whole that really seals the deal for us. We wanted THAT, we wanted each other, not something or someone that sort of approximates or is just "good" in some different way. That's just not good _enough_. Even after all the sh!t, we still felt love for each other, and appreciation of the things that drew us together in the first place. Neither one of us forms deep attachments easily, but we are deeply attached to each other. Even now, our relationship is not without problems, but we are working on it, and we both feel it is worth it and are 100% committed to seeing this through. We have both learned a lot.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> My betrayed partner hardly ever comes onto TAM, so I guess I'll try to give a short answer for both of us.
> 
> I was the wayward. I approached my partner about reconciling nearly a year ago, after she finally moved out. She moved out because we had already been separated for a while, and things between us just kept getting worse. We were both angry all the time, and didn't really see a way back from that. I thought I could make myself be okay with that. I spent a long time working on it. I tried to steel myself to those feelings of loss, telling myself it was already over and I couldn't do anything to change or fix it.
> 
> ...


A couple of questions. I don't know where you live, is there a substantial GLBT community in your area? The reason I ask, is that if the GLBT community is small, maybe a lack of possible new romantic partners had a bearing on the decision to R?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

My aunt is Lesbian and she and her SO live in a rural community. If they were to split up, they would have to go to a large city to find any significant group of possible new romantic interests.,


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> A couple of questions. I don't know where you live, is there a substantial GLBT community in your area?


No, there is not. But even if we lived in a large city, it would be the same. Because even if you take the pool of available women, once you start checking off all the "boxes" that we do for each other, that pool dwindles so much that we might as well be the only two people around, LOL. 

When I first met her (we found each other online), I picked her out of I don't know how many hundreds of profiles. I had decided that I was done settling. I went through a lot of them until I found hers. It took DAYS. (That's not to mention the other sites and profiles I went through for months before that.) This was not just for our state, but the entire country. I'm talking hours a day dedicated to sorting through these profiles. When I contacted her, she said she was super excited, because when she read my profile, she felt like she could have written it herself. We clicked on so many levels.



Rookie4 said:


> The reason I ask, is that if the GLBT community is small, maybe a lack of possible new romantic partners had a bearing on the decision to R?


No, not at all. It is that we want each other, and realize how rare what we have is, and how special the other is. If something happened and I couldn't have her, I wouldn't want to be with anyone else.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> My aunt is Lesbian and she and her SO live in a rural community. If they were to split up, they would have to go to a large city to find any significant group of possible new romantic interests.,


That sucks.  Our area is not rural, but it's not metropolitan, either. Still, we have the vast internet if we really wanted to look for another partner. 

Like I said on another thread somewhere, even when we were separated and I tried to get interested in dating other people, I just kept avoiding meeting or talking on the phone with them. I didn't want to even look at another person's face for that long, much less get close. It was pretty sad, lol.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

The other note on availability is that the OW I mentioned, my ex, was ready and waiting. She had been waiting for me to be single for years so she could hook me back again. So if I had wanted someone suitable, I didn't have far to look. But I turned away from her because I really wanted DS - even though there was that rather huge risk that DS wouldn't choose me back.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

SoulPotato, what do you think made you go outside of your relationship?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I choose to D.
I figured it was just a matter of time before she went back to the SOS and with in a year (youngest turns 18) I would be on my own.

Well Mrs. the-guy proved me wrong and its been almost 4 years and she is still around. She went straight before... for 5 year before SOS came back, so we'll see.
She has excepted her punishment/s and is now on parole. I'm semi retired from the cheater police and thing are good.

Mrs. the guy was a model prisoner and got early parole.

It must really suck to be with a guy that doesn't trust you...I wonder why she continue to hang out with me? Were meeting each others needs now and things are good, I just don't really under stand it all...I can't imagine its love....


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> SoulPotato, what do you think made you go outside of your relationship?


I wrote a long and very personal post in response at first, and then I wondered if it wasn't too much. So I'll say this.

A lot of things, me-centric. Nutshell: My own broken self, my inability to cope, and my blindness.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

I chose to R and now 18 months later we are separating.
I'm not sorry at all. We gave it our best shot and in attempting to R I have become stronger. I wasn't ready to give up 18 months ago and I hung I'm for dear life like a scared child. I am a different person today, looking forward to the future, excited about my new home. My H and I are good friends, I'm so glad we are not parting, hating each other.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Quote of Rookie*
> “…what factors lead you to make that choice. Plus, were you the BS or WS and did your SO agree with your decision or not”
> What are your stories?



When my WS ex-wife came back home and wanted to R I agreed to allow her back in the home. The factors that led to my decisions are:

1	My faith
2	My belief that I will be blessed for showing mercy
3	For my minor children
4	For myself
5	For her

*In that exact order*


When she left I was greatly relived and was looking forward to a new life. I had won EVERYTHING in the Divorce including custody of my children. I even had a special provision in the Divorce Decree that gave me the total power over any visitation regarding my only daughter. In other words she would never visit her mother when she was with OM. My attorney said that I was a bit unfair in wanting that provision but I told him that if he did not write it that way then I would get another lawyer. He wrote it in and my wife agreed to it. A good father should never allow his young daughter to be under the roof of the OM. IMO

My R was one that said *“Your actions for YEARS will determine everything in our R” *I knew that she had betrayed me and that was the crux of the matter so I did not need any of the harmful details. I was counseled to work on forgiveness and not throw up any of her degradation to her or to question her about the affair over and over again. In other words the *counselor said if I was serious about forgiveness, then respond the way that God responded to me when I wanted forgiveness. God has forgiven me for other things and never brings up my betrayal of Hm.*


*My forgiveness of her means that I no longer hold hatred, bad feelings towards her or want bad things to happen to her. *The consequences and restoration are something different. I was not going to restore her back to marriage status that she wanted because consequences and restoration are different than forgiveness. It took me a while to heal so that I could consider restoration.


However after 4 years of her showing that her actions showed true remorse and change of heart, I married her again. I married her mostly because I wanted God to restore me after I had betrayed God and I know God wants me to do unto others as I would have them do unto me. *I wanted to be restored and I wanted to please God because He will never betray me and always wants what is good for me.*

So for me there are three stages to the A and the R and my relationship with my wife. They are:

1	Forgiveness	*mandatory for my faith*
2	consequences
3	restorations.

D-Day was 26 years ago

Remarriage was 22 years ago

My life for the last 22 years has been a LOT more good than bad. The bad was about 5% of the time and the real bad about 20% but the good was 75%. No complaints from me on those statistics!

We are a close family and my three children and my 7 grandchildren love me.

My youngest son and grandson live with us and I love it! 

Even though my wife and I have lost some things permanently we have gained in other ways and love each other. My wife and family are great blessings to me but they are like me and fail. We are great people but we are human with it’s limitations.

God has been true to His word and has blessed me emotionally, spiritually, financially, in my relationships, and in health!! For me, *God is the only one that will always be true to me and can always fulfill His promises; He is the essence of strength and goodness.*


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I might hold the record for the longest R that eventually turned into D. Thirty years ago my husband cheated. We had a 12 year old son at the time and after considering D I decided to stay for our son. I tried hard to repair the relationship but I also did a lot of rug sweeping. I basically pretended it never happened. But I told him if he cheated again I would D. A few years ago he cheated again. With the same woman. So this summer I did what I should have done 30 years ago. I ended a 45 year marriage with no regrets. 

He and I are friends now. He has remarried (but not to his AP) and I have reconnected with my first love from almost 50 years ago. We are both very happy.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Openminded said:


> I might hold the record for the longest R that eventually turned into D. Thirty years ago my husband cheated. We had a 12 year old son at the time and after considering D I decided to stay for our son. I tried hard to repair the relationship but I also did a lot of rug sweeping. I basically pretended it never happened. But I told him if he cheated again I would D. A few years ago he cheated again. With the same woman. So this summer I did what I should have done 30 years ago. I ended a 45 year marriage with no regrets.
> 
> He and I are friends now. He has remarried (but not to his AP) and I have reconnected with my first love from almost 50 years ago. We are both very happy.


Oh wow! Better late than never! 
~sammy


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

So, on the BS side, how much of the decision to R or D is based on the ability of the BS to forgive?
Conversely, on the WS side, how much of the decision is based on remorse and a willingness to do the "grunt" work of rebuilding trust?


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> So, on the BS side, how much of the decision to R or D is based on the ability of the BS to forgive?
> Conversely, on the WS side, how much of the decision is based on remorse and a willingness to do the "grunt" work of rebuilding trust?


I was the BS and was so enraged and distraught, I couldn't think straight. 
I lost my job and life as I knew it fell apart.

I was only given 7 months to "just get over it" and then she decided
to lie and hide her breaking of the NC rule with the OM.

I felt that she did the bare minimum just to say she was "trying"
but knowing her as well as I did, I knew it wasn't a true representation
of how remorseful she should've been for destroying what we had worked so
hard to build together.

I deserved better and so did our children and family.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

If you couldn't think straight, what caused you to try to R? Apparently you were thinking straight enough to make that decision, right? I think a lot of people are more motivated by comfort and security/familiarity when it comes to deciding to R, than would like to admit. Many times, the issues that both BS and WS declare are the reasons for attempting R, are very similar.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> If you couldn't think straight, what caused you to try to R? Apparently you were thinking straight enough to make that decision, right? I think a lot of people are more motivated by comfort and security/familiarity when it comes to deciding to R, than would like to admit. Many times, the issues that both BS and WS declare are the reasons for attempting R, are very similar.


I agree with you. That played a large part in my decision to stay years ago. I liked my very comfortable life. And I felt it was better for my child. However, I wish I had gotten out then rather than wait until now. I am no longer the supporter of R that I once was.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Openminded said:


> I agree with you. That played a large part in my decision to stay 30 years ago. I liked my very comfortable life. And I felt it was better for my child. However, I wish I had gotten out then rather than wait until now. My son has also said he wished I had gotten out then. I am no longer the supporter of R that I once was.


Would love to hear more of your narrative... 
~sammy


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> Would love to hear more of your narrative...
> ~sammy


I didn't want to believe my perfect life was shattering o. No TAM to help me then so I made lots of mistakes. The only thing I did right was warn him I would leave if it happened again which naturally he swore it wouldn't. Cheaters lie. 

I have no idea if it stopped or continued off and on during that time. But when I caught him this last time I knew I was done. It took awhile to get everything ready for me to leave. 

I'm sure there are some people who R successfully and the cheater doesn't cheat again. I just don't think there are many. It's too easy to find an excuse to cheat. And the truth is that as long as the cheater lives you will never be sure they can really be trusted. I'm glad I'm out.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

So the marriage was never happy again? Was it happy before? 
~ sammy


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Quote of Rookie*
> So, on the BS side, how much of the decision to R or D is based on the ability of the BS to forgive?


For me if I did not forgive I would not have had a successful R or D

The forgiveness was mostly for me; it helped me a LOT!

I could not have gone on to restore without forgiveness
My decision to R was mostly based on my faith, my children and myself. My children are glad that we stayed together; the R has benefits for us.






> *Quote of Rookie*
> I think a lot of people are more motivated by comfort and security/familiarity when it comes to deciding to R, than would like to admit.


That was not the case with me. I was very comfortable and secure. I had the whole house in my name, my children loved and respected me, I had custody of all the children, I had a very good job, and I was very relived that she left; the pressure and stress was relived a LOT and I was excited about a new life!


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Quote of Openminded*
> And the truth is that as long as the cheater lives you will never be sure they can really be trusted


You will never be sure if your cheater or non-cheater spouse is not going to cheat.

As far as I know my wife has not cheated again. She does seem to really regret and have remorse. If she does cheat again I will forgive, Divorce, and not restore back to marriage


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I am in a limbo of sorts. One that I partially choose to be in and one that is partially due to other circumstances such as financial, having kids and no tangible outside supports. 

While WS would be happy to be reconciled (meaning, I forgive, forget and move on and love him as I did before all of this), I am not satisfied with the limited efforts he has made to help us heal. I think about leaving every day.

In addition to the destruction of our "marriage" (common-law), the destruction of the relationships I had with his family also plays a key role to how I feel about us. Not having family of my own nearby, my relationships with his family were important to me and are proving to be important to how I felt about us as well. With those relationships dead and gone, there is a lot less for me to hold on to. I really want to feel part of a family unit outside of the one I've created with a spouse (us and our kids) and right now I don't have that. I feel like I will never again have that with them after the way I was treated.

Neither option - to stay in an unfulfilled, unsafe relationship with my children's father or to break up the family, be a single mother with no support and find a new partner and blend a family is very attractive to me at the moment. My kids are definitely happier with dad at home than they were when we were separated. My youngest knows his dad now and my oldest is happy to have dad at home every night. 

I don't want to have to care what he is up to. I don't like feeling ostracized from his family when he and our oldest go to visit them without me and our youngest. I don't like feeling judged for what I do during the day and wondering if he is comparing how I do things to the way that she did/does them.

On the other end of the spectrum, I don't want to raise my kids by myself like I was doing while we were separated. I don't have my own family to help me with anything. My closest friend, is unfortunately, in similar circumstances I was in last year. I feel like I'm already exhausted emotionally from having dealt with the aftermath of it and I don't want to go through it again. I also don't want to uproot my oldest as he is emotionally fragile and the opposite of the "resilient kid" that people talk about when discussing divorce.

I feel stuck trying to determine what the lesser of two evils really is. Other than having a time-machine and one of those memory erasers from the Men in Black films, I fear it's an emotional hell either way.


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## Yankee99 (Nov 4, 2013)

Its not always a question. In my case, I asked my wayward wife to go to counseling so we could consider R, and she refused.

In a way it maybe easier because then I don't have to deal with breaking of NC, fake R and all of that.

I am not an expert, but I think the length and nature of the affair will impact ability to R.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Length of the affair is a double edge sword.

My wife, very long affair.. years and years.. long enough for the shine to come off her knight in shining armor, and him to become boring and the same-old-same-old. So she was basically coming out of the fog on her own when I caught her, just in it for the rush. At that point he was back to 'friend' and no longer love. So if you want to R, it's a good head start for the wayward to be realizing what they've done if they're not still blinded by love. If the affair is still early, and they are still feeling passion for the OM/W, then R will be much more of a challenge.

On the flip side, the BS, knowing the level of betrayal, that the WS would go to such extent to decieve, and to keep just a 'friend', or casual sex out of habit, is devestating.. but is it any more than finding out it's a one year or a six month? I admit, a ONS or a EA would have been preferred, but the fact that I could so easily turn my WS on her OM had much to do with the amount of time the affair lasted.

I'm probably in R because of the amount of work she's doing.. everything on the list and then some. I hope over time, with her continued efforts, and mine, we can rebuild our relationship.

Why do I think it's worth saving? Because we've had such joy and passion in the past, not just in short amounts or over short periods, but over very long spans of time. We are very compatible, and I am extremely attracted to her. If I were looking through personal ads, and she popped up, I'd be very interested.

I also decided that no matter who I'm with going forward, I now realize that anyone can cheat, and you can know or not know about it.. If she cheated again, or even showed me any signs of how she was being when she cheated, I will find another person to spend my time with. Changing partners won't secure me from being cheated on, but choosing to stay with the same partner we can both examine the why's and how's and work to prevent them from happening again.

The comfort level with me is because of the length of our relationship.. 32 years is a long time, and 3 children, someday grandchildren.. It's more comfortable to not hate the mother of my children. I chose the path of forgiveness, because it's healthier for my soul.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> So the marriage was never happy again? Was it happy before?
> ~ sammy


I felt we were as happy as two very mismatched people could be. I'm a Type A. He's not. He was often passive-aggressive. And I felt like the leader of the family (when I wanted him to be) even though he out-earned me by six or seven times my salary. 

He was literally the last person on earth I felt would cheat. And he denied it for decades. But he couldn't deny what he said in those emails. And when I found them I knew the time had finally arrived to end it. So no more worrying about it. It's done and we are both much happier. 

The fallout from it is that I'm very cynical about R and believe it ultimately fails for most.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> You will never be sure if your cheater or non-cheater spouse is not going to cheat.
> 
> As far as I know my wife has not cheated again. She does seem to really regret and have remorse. If she does cheat again I will forgive, Divorce, and not restore back to marriage


The innocence is gone when you are married to a cheater. You never get it back. Perhaps those of us who are betrayed spouses shouldn't have trusted them to begin with. I don't know the answer to that.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Length of the affair is a double edge sword.
> 
> My wife, very long affair.. years and years.. long enough for the shine to come off her knight in shining armor, and him to become boring and the same-old-same-old. So she was basically coming out of the fog on her own when I caught her, just in it for the rush. At that point he was back to 'friend' and no longer love. So if you want to R, it's a good head start for the wayward to be realizing what they've done if they're not still blinded by love. If the affair is still early, and they are still feeling passion for the OM/W, then R will be much more of a challenge.
> 
> ...


My question to you is, why do you seem to see forgiveness and reconciliation as the same thing? I forgave my ex wife,but I didn't stay married to her.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> I am in a limbo of sorts. One that I partially choose to be in and one that is partially due to other circumstances such as financial, having kids and no tangible outside supports.
> 
> While WS would be happy to be reconciled (meaning, I forgive, forget and move on and love him as I did before all of this), I am not satisfied with the limited efforts he has made to help us heal. I think about leaving every day.
> 
> ...


My advice to you would be to start the process of distancing yourself from your WS and family. Cultivate NEW relationships and create a new support network. You are not helpless.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I am interested in both sides, those who chose to R and those who chose to D and what factors lead you to make that choice...
> 
> What are your stories? How did you come to your decision?


Back to the OP...

1. The factor that ended my decision to R was when I had a second d-day. My exWW had a PA/EA for about 13 months. 

The first d-day (actually a 5 week period) was finding out about that. A second d-day was about 4 months after, when I found she had been in at least and EA with my former best friend concurrent to the PA with the OM #1.

The second d-day was only traumatic for a day or two. I noticed that my feelings were more of a realization that she was broken. The first d-day I deeply looked at my flaws in the problem. The second d-day I began to look at her. I had lived through Hell, and I was not shaken as deeply on round 2.

2. Reading TAM was a factor. I lurked for a couple of years prior to posting. My lurking taught me things that were missing in my puzzle.

3. Reading about BPD on TAM and the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells" helped me realize that some things are not fixed.

4. People who knew my story and knew my exWW all questioned me about the R. Why would you stay? I valued their perspectives.

5. I did the 180 stuff. I worked on that prior to d-day 1 because of the things I read on TAM about attraction. It was very hard to go from deeply loving a woman to indifference. It took me several months to get to a point where I no longer wanted her in my life. It was actually a good, peaceful feeling when I realized I was there. I passed through limbo and had made the choice. A relief from my burden.

Part of the 180 was my concious effort to regain my shattered ego. I did this by some flirting, and looking. I realized that there were very good women who were interested in me. It is easier to know a that a D will not be filled with lonely days and nights. When you decide you will be happy without your spouse, it is easier to move on.

Regrets? I used to think the time wasted on the R was my regret. As time passes, I feel that the time well spent on my R was good insurance for me to have peace in knowing my choice to D was right. It is a balancing act to know how long to try to R. My R evolved into a limo, and eventually a choice to D. Some days I would feel like R, some days like D. The days wanting to D finally were more consistant. It was about 8 months after the first d-day.

My perception of TAM posters is that some move on and out with a D quickly. Some stay here for years in a perpetual R/limbo phase. I can't recall anyone ever posting that they regret a D.

I also heard from a couple of reputable therapists that most people that D have regrets. I wonder if they have included the WSs in their sampling. Not sure if the BSs that chose D really regret it much.

Hope my post helps anyone in chosing what is best for them.


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> I am in a limbo of sorts. One that I partially choose to be in and one that is partially due to other circumstances such as financial, having kids and no tangible outside supports.
> 
> While WS would be happy to be reconciled (meaning, I forgive, forget and move on and love him as I did before all of this), I am not satisfied with the limited efforts he has made to help us heal. I think about leaving every day.
> 
> ...


Yup. Pretty much this. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Your post doesn't indicate it, but are you a SAHM?

I sometimes wonder if it makes it easier for the WS to do what he does when his wife is a SAHM because in the back of his mind he's thinking "Well, what's she going to do without me?"

I passed the DDay 1 year mark. I survived, LOL. 

The gnawing never goes away though. The "but wait, there's more" feeling. 

Im doing my own little 180, not that he doesn't seem repentant, but still. It's amazing... I have never felt so wanted by him in the 10 years of marriage.... but something has just died in me. That feeling of safety is gone. He reaches out and it's feels like a stranger is doing it. Actually, I think I would trust a stranger more at this point.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I chose to R at first. Co-dependancy, not thinking straight, all that jazz. She threw it away, broke me deeper. 

Long story short after nearly 5 years. We are not reconciled nor did I go that direction on ‘round 2' as I am at accepting that we only control ourselves. So, I’m not sure how you might define my relationship with my wife. 

I’ve told her it’s kindergarten rules: Treat me however you want to be treated and I will. Simple. 

This relationship is no more or less than she’s regularly putting into it. But it does shatter her dreams of that fantasy spouse who’d do anything for her regardless just because she wears the title of “Mrs.”. Sort of funny to watch her try and “control” me and the various methods. It just doesn’t work anymore. I do what I want to do. So if she wants me to do something, it needs to be something I want to do for her, not because it’s her. She can’t rely on the title anymore unless she wants me to choose which title I want; Wife or WW? Better if she’s just judged on her current actions than vows or broken vows of the past.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Conversely, on the WS side, how much of the decision is based on remorse and a willingness to do the "grunt" work of rebuilding trust?


There is no point in attempting R if a wayward is not remorseful. I don't even know why anyone would. Even with remorse, I knew that there was no point in broaching R to my partner if I was incapable of doing a complete overhaul on myself and doing whatever it took. If I'd thought I had nothing to offer her and nothing to bring to the table, I wouldn't have bothered to approach her. Not empty-handed. That would just have been adding insult to injury. She deserves everything that I have to give, and if that ends up not being enough someday, at least I'll have given her my best.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> My advice to you would be to start the process of distancing yourself from your WS and family. Cultivate NEW relationships and create a new support network. You are not helpless.


I'm totally distanced from his family. Save when MIL walked in (didn't knock) in my kitchen the other day unannounced to see the baby (whom she ignored during our physical separation). That was the first time I saw or spoke to her since late August when we had a family fight up at the cottage about the affair and her being mad at me for telling her that WS cheated (I was 8 months pregnant and wrote an exposure letter right after D-Day). Emotionally, I have cut ties with all of them, save my FIL who has always been supportive and mature about the situation. 

I am emotionally distanced from WS but admittedly have slept with him a few times when drinking. To me it's "just sex" but he tries to make it more afterward. I just don't feel it. I also have to be drunk to do it... anyway I have another thread all about that and it is what it is.

I have reached out to community supports and made new friends through baby groups etc. I have an emotional support network but having been raised by a single mom who also didn't have family, I am not encouraged to repeat that cycle either. 



ScorchedEarth said:


> Yup. Pretty much this. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
> 
> Your post doesn't indicate it, but are you a SAHM?
> 
> ...


I was/am a SAHM when the affairs started and now. However, money has always been "funny" with us. Prior to, I had always been the breadwinner in our household. I even supported him financially with his schooling. I got laid off mid-2011 from my job as a law clerk and started a successful cleaning business (during school hours) when I got pregnant with our second child in winter 2011. 

I think his cheating was a culmination of 1) his diagnosis with type II diabetes sending him into a panic, 2) having to support me financially after being used to me earning more than him for nearly a decade when I got pregnant and 3) The pregnancy was unplanned and admittedly untimely (I was trying to get my business off the ground and he was sick). In no way does it justify or excuse it but I think that the culmination of getting diagnosed with a chronic illness and questioning his virility and morbidity, my lay off and our (unexpected - the kids are eight years apart) pregnancy made him more vulnerable to cheating. 

Right now I am a SAHM but I still work (doing my cleaning on his days off and doing online sales). I still contribute. I earn enough to live here with him but not enough to move out with our kids to a different place. I am working to change that but until I do change that, I think he feels secure with knowing I can't leave. I was able to live here while separated because his dad owns our house but inevitably, I will be the one who has to permanently relocate - not him.



ScorchedEarth said:


> Im doing my own little 180, not that he doesn't seem repentant, but still. It's amazing... I have never felt so wanted by him in the 10 years of marriage.... but something has just died in me. That feeling of safety is gone. He reaches out and it's feels like a stranger is doing it. Actually, I think I would trust a stranger more at this point.


I totally relate to this. It's a mind-fvck. WH acts like he is crazy about me now that I just want him to go the fvck away. It was actually when I was the most invested, loving, sexually gratifying towards him and wanting to please him that he cheated on me. I have no incentive to please him now after that and he keeps chasing me. I think cheaters and the whole push me-pull you dynamic is very common and that's why the 180 draws them closer.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I think a lot of people are more motivated by comfort and security/familiarity when it comes to deciding to R, than would like to admit.


I'd be curious to know how often that is the case. But it seems sad to me, somehow.

For me, it was not comfortable, secure, or familiar to try for R with DS. I wasn't supposed to try for anything good. It seemed outrageous to dare to think of it, someone like me. I was also far more comfortable in the downward spiral towards oblivion. I felt a lot of pressure and anxiety over being careful with DS because I didn't want to damage her and I know she's very delicate in some ways. But with the other people I was around, toxic people, I didn't have to take care.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> My question to you is, why do you seem to see forgiveness and reconciliation as the same thing? I forgave my ex wife,but I didn't stay married to her.


You can R without staying married.. forgiveness is a big part of that.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Quote of Openminded*
> The innocence is gone when you are married to a cheater. You never get it back.



Openminded, I think I know what you mean. I worded my statement a little different than you did but we may be talking about the same thing. Here is what I said in a previous post 




> Even though my wife and I have lost some things permanently we have gained in other ways and love each other


Here is what I lost forever. The first is innocent trust. I would never believe that my wife would cheat until it was staring me straight in the c face. *I will never have that 100% trust in her again. Secondly, I will never cherish or admire her as deeply as I did before the A.*

We gained in other areas but the 100% trust, admiration, and cherishing is lost forever. The biggest gain was me improving myself spiritually and finding other areas to fill in the holes. Improving my relationship with my children and some extended family members did a lot t o fill those holes.


The loss of trust, admiration, and cherishing still leaves a small ache in my soul once in a while but the other gains are sufficient for me to have a good life. *I do not depend on my wife for 100% fulfillment and that is healthy and increases my security.*


Openminded, I f my wife did what your husband did I would do the same as you did.


My wife did not do what your husband did so I have learned to be content with the situation that I have. I have a good life and I am very thankful to God for the many blessing that I have. My wife and I have been together for 45 years.

*I have found that the vast majority of contentment comes from yourself and God.*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> There is no point in attempting R if a wayward is not remorseful. I don't even know why anyone would. Even with remorse, I knew that there was no point in broaching R to my partner if I was incapable of doing a complete overhaul on myself and doing whatever it took. If I'd thought I had nothing to offer her and nothing to bring to the table, I wouldn't have bothered to approach her. Not empty-handed. That would just have been adding insult to injury. She deserves everything that I have to give, and if that ends up not being enough someday, at least I'll have given her my best.


To use an Automotive analogy, if you have a bad alternator, you don't have to overhaul the whole engine. Fix what is broken. You shouldn't have to re-invent yourself to suit someone else, regardless of who is the BS and who is the WS.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> I'm totally distanced from his family. Save when MIL walked in (didn't knock) in my kitchen the other day unannounced to see the baby (whom she ignored during our physical separation). That was the first time I saw or spoke to her since late August when we had a family fight up at the cottage about the affair and her being mad at me for telling her that WS cheated (I was 8 months pregnant and wrote an exposure letter right after D-Day). Emotionally, I have cut ties with all of them, save my FIL who has always been supportive and mature about the situation.
> 
> I am emotionally distanced from WS but admittedly have slept with him a few times when drinking. To me it's "just sex" but he tries to make it more afterward. I just don't feel it. I also have to be drunk to do it... anyway I have another thread all about that and it is what it is.
> 
> ...


So you will divorce , once you get your duck in a row?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> I'd be curious to know how often that is the case. But it seems sad to me, somehow.
> 
> For me, it was not comfortable, secure, or familiar to try for R with DS. I wasn't supposed to try for anything good. It seemed outrageous to dare to think of it, someone like me. I was also far more comfortable in the downward spiral towards oblivion. I felt a lot of pressure and anxiety over being careful with DS because I didn't want to damage her and I know she's very delicate in some ways. But with the other people I was around, toxic people, I didn't have to take care.


I relate this to people who are dependent on their SO's , those who have kids, and those in long standing relationships, or who are lazy. LOL


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Racer said:


> I chose to R at first. Co-dependancy, not thinking straight, all that jazz. She threw it away, broke me deeper.
> 
> Long story short after nearly 5 years. We are not reconciled nor did I go that direction on ‘round 2' as I am at accepting that we only control ourselves. So, I’m not sure how you might define my relationship with my wife.
> 
> ...


This doesn't sound like a good relationship to me. It sounds as if you are coasting along, waiting for the boat to sink.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

After reading and listening to a lot of infidelity stories during my crisis, I've come to the conclusion that self-knowledge is crucial to the decision to R or D. I believe that if people (WS and BS) are truly honest with themselves, ABOUT themselves, they already know very soon after the affair is discovered or confessed, if they are able to R or if they should D. Sometimes they allow themselves to be swayed by outside sources (friends, family, the financial situation, comfortable lifestyle, etc) into deciding to do one or the other, against their better judgement, but this is a good recipe for failure.
MY situation is a really good example. I knew from D-day that my marriage was over and that I would not ever look at my wife the same way and I didn't want to look at her in any other way. I had enough self-knowledge to know that I am not built that way. But later on, after my ex-wife had re-invented herself (think about this Soul Potato) to suit me, I was persuaded by friends, family and her wonderful behavior to give it another try. WE succeeded at reconciliation but failed at renewing our love. So my first decision to D was the correct one because it was based on what I knew of myself and my tolerances, and was not influenced by these outside distractions..


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rookie, thank you, but I'm not reinventing myself to suit anyone... I'm still me. What I meant by a complete overhaul is going down to the foundation and repairing what is wrong. It is not just the alternator that is bad.  There are problems throughout the entire system that have to be fixed.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

R after a one night stand is one thing, but to R after a long term affair in my eyes is impossible...

One day your spouse love you, the next she/he is banging some old or new flame, telling them you are the antichrist, they hate you, they love the ap...they were never happy, blah blah blah

and Then...lo and behold, they love their bs again, are sorry they conspired to have them kicked out of their home and to pay support, dont really hate you any more, and want to make it work??

imo its ALL a fog...once an affair happens, not a one nighter, but an actual affair that requires lies, deception, manipulation, you can never go back...the marriage is a sham and should be dissolved...imo


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Rookie4 said:


> This doesn't sound like a good relationship to me. It sounds as if you are coasting along, waiting for the boat to sink.


Not really. Think back to dating. Before you knew you wanted to marry her. It’s not as though the relationship is a dead end. A relationship can grow, or it can wither... It is coasting in a way, but it’s more like an adventure where you adjust the coarse based on the winds. 

Think back to those unspoken ‘rules’ of dating you. Would you accept your girlfriend going ballistic because you didn’t clean up after her? Would you live under constant threats of her dating others? Would you continue the relationship if she decided you should be celibate? What were your boundaries back then and why did they change with “I do”? 

For me: I did tolerate under some fantastical ideology of “that’s what a good husband should do”. Massive enabling by me. I bought into her excuses because she was my wife and as a husband, I felt I should be sympathetic to what she wanted. In this new relationship, even if it isn’t rational, I can draw a line in the sand that says “I’m uncomfortable and bothered with that.” I don’t need to argue it or make a counter-case; I just am and accept this. She will have to deal with that. I firmly place the choice in her hands, but she knows what bugs me and what doesn’t. And she knows if she does enough to bug me more than add to my happiness, she has no place in my life anymore. Vows no longer hold me because “us” was destroyed.

I grieved the loss of the marriage, it was murdered. No going back or reanimation. It’s a rebuilding, not a restoration of something I know didn’t work. Will it work out? No freaking idea; Just like when I started dating her I wasn’t thinking of spending the rest of my life with her either. I let the relationship be whatever and wherever it wanted to go. And made adjustments. That’s what I’m doing now and trying hard to learn from the past mistakes.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

missthelove2013 said:


> R after a one night stand is one thing, but to R after a long term affair in my eyes is impossible...
> 
> One day your spouse love you, the next she/he is banging some old or new flame, telling them you are the antichrist, they hate you, they love the ap...they were never happy, blah blah blah
> 
> ...


I know what you mean, struggling with the long term affair is very painful.. but I'm not so sure a one nighter is much better, that will still blow away all trust, all the things the LTA would blow away... If confessed it might not be as bad as if it was discovered. I think if my WS tried to kick me out of the home instead of leaving when I asked, I would be in D proceedings.

It sounds like you are excusing a one nighter, with the disclaimer... like an affair, not a one nighter... well sorry, but cheating is cheating. If they are drunk when they have the ONS, does that stop the mind movies? 

Here's another side of it... ONS, are they easy? Sleazy?

LTA, thought they were in love and hated you, so at least they don't just hop in bed with someone because they feel horny while still loving you.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I really don't see where the length of the infidelity makes the decision easier or harder. There again, it depends on the abilities of the participants.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I know what you mean, struggling with the long term affair is very painful.. but I'm not so sure a one nighter is much better, that will still blow away all trust, all the things the LTA would blow away... If confessed it might not be as bad as if it was discovered. I think if my WS tried to kick me out of the home instead of leaving when I asked, I would be in D proceedings.
> 
> It sounds like you are excusing a one nighter, with the disclaimer... like an affair, not a one nighter... well sorry, but cheating is cheating. If they are drunk when they have the ONS, does that stop the mind movies?
> 
> ...


You can chalk a one nighter to alcohol fueled mistake...I can accept the use of the word "mistake" in a one nighter...

but NOT a long term affair...that is not a mistake, its an "on purpose"...my opinions of course...yes cheating is cheating, but had my wife come to me and said she had a one night stand, it was just sex, she was sorry, blah blah blah...it would have been different than ME finding out she was boning her boss for over a year...THAT required deception...she sat there with me on christmas day all smiles and cuddly KNOWING she was having an affair...it was strictly sexual, and when I found out, it was already over (she ended it)...but what makes R impossible for me is the fact that she deceived and manipulated for over a year...when I confronted her she was 100% honest about it...and I saw a years worth of emails...she treated the guy like her sex toy...

people make mistakes...a ONE time sexual encounter is cheating but CAN be a mistake...a long term is NO mistake, PLENTY of time to evaluate whats what:scratchhead:


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

missthelove2013 said:


> You can chalk a one nighter to alcohol fueled mistake...I can accept the use of the word "mistake" in a one nighter...
> 
> but NOT a long term affair...that is not a mistake, its an "on purpose"...my opinions of course...yes cheating is cheating, but had my wife come to me and said she had a one night stand, it was just sex, she was sorry, blah blah blah...it would have been different than ME finding out she was boning her boss for over a year...THAT required deception...she sat there with me on christmas day all smiles and cuddly KNOWING she was having an affair...it was strictly sexual, and when I found out, it was already over (she ended it)...but what makes R impossible for me is the fact that she deceived and manipulated for over a year...when I confronted her she was 100% honest about it...and I saw a years worth of emails...she treated the guy like her sex toy...
> 
> people make mistakes...a ONE time sexual encounter is cheating but CAN be a mistake...a long term is NO mistake, PLENTY of time to evaluate whats what:scratchhead:


I disagree, there is a certain level of deception in all affairs , even ONS. Sometimes it is the WS deceiving themselves, or sometimes, in order to hide the ONS the WS will deceive the BS and others. . I do agree that a long term affair requires much more planned deception. I, emphatically, disagree that a ONS is an "alcohol-fueled mistake". It is also a planned action, requiring multiple choices. and a willingness to accept risks.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Rookie4 said:


> I disagree, there is a certain level of deception in all affairs , even ONS. Sometimes it is the WS deceiving themselves, or sometimes, in order to hide the ONS the WS will deceive the BS and others. . I do agree that a long term affair requires much more planned deception. I, emphatically, disagree that a ONS is an "alcohol-fueled mistake". It is also a planned action, requiring multiple choices. and a willingness to accept risks.


Not true. Since my WW is a SA, I’ve dealt with ONS’s, EA’s, and LTPA’s. For me, the hardest is the LTPA. Why? 
Let’s see... We closed on a new house, she took the day off and screwed him after signing the papers. Her new car, she showed off to him. My new car, the same when she borrowed it. My birthday, her birthday, v-day, xmas, new years, every major holiday, even our vacations, where she worked, even when out shopping for presents for the kids so those toys have the taint on them. Years of memories, dates, and events now tainted by her adultery. There’s even years of family photo’s and being able to associate where she was in her other relationships now. The haunting smiles of a false idol staring at the camera pretending it’s all great in this marriage. All those ‘redflag’ moments like me confronting her that it doesn’t take two hours to go grocery shopping to pick up a couple items... and the countless other lies. A head full of this and the memories of how insane I felt for years feeling something was off but not being able to figure out why and her doing all she could to leave me confused with outlandish excuses and attacks to shift the focus.

A ONS, hurts... no doubt. But you don’t have years of memories poisoned of this person in the same way where just time itself and occasions now have this new memory there. A ONS betrayed can probably make judgements about their spouse and what they were thinking... a LTPA betrayed gets the added bonus of knowing they screwed, where, and how to celebrate and probably even what gifts were exchanged.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Racer said:


> Not true. Since my WW is a SA, I’ve dealt with ONS’s, EA’s, and LTPA’s. For me, the hardest is the LTPA. Why?
> Let’s see... We closed on a new house, she took the day off and screwed him after signing the papers. Her new car, she showed off to him. My new car, the same when she borrowed it. My birthday, her birthday, v-day, xmas, new years, every major holiday, even our vacations, where she worked, even when out shopping for presents for the kids so those toys have the taint on them. Years of memories, dates, and events now tainted by her adultery. There’s even years of family photo’s and being able to associate where she was in her other relationships now. The haunting smiles of a false idol staring at the camera pretending it’s all great in this marriage. All those ‘redflag’ moments like me confronting her that it doesn’t take two hours to go grocery shopping to pick up a couple items... and the countless other lies. A head full of this and the memories of how insane I felt for years feeling something was off but not being able to figure out why and her doing all she could to leave me confused with outlandish excuses and attacks to shift the focus.
> 
> A ONS, hurts... no doubt. But you don’t have years of memories poisoned of this person in the same way where just time itself and occasions now have this new memory there. A ONS betrayed can probably make judgements about their spouse and what they were thinking... a LTPA betrayed gets the added bonus of knowing they screwed, where, and how to celebrate and probably even what gifts were exchanged.


Sorry, but this seems to be just what I'm trying to get at , by this thread. Why would anyone possibly accept this kind of treatment? You didn't KNOW , but you KNEW something was wrong? You had "red Flag" moments, yet still did nothing to find out about them? From your post it sounds like she was pretty blatant about her cheating and you didn't KNOW? Sounds pretty clueless to me.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but this seems to be just what I'm trying to get at , by this thread. Why would anyone possibly accept this kind of treatment? You didn't KNOW , but you KNEW something was wrong? You had "red Flag" moments, yet still did nothing to find out about them? From your post it sounds like she was pretty blatant about her cheating and you didn't KNOW? Sounds pretty clueless to me.


I mostly stick to therapy and a beyond affairs network "group" meetings but I had a bad flashback and landed here (Again)

For Shame... I think its pretty harsh to call anyone who has been cheated on clueless. I think a great number of the betrayed could be typed clueless but I think there is one really good reason we were (or) are unable to clue in. Blind Trust. Deep down you feel there is no possibility this can be happening. That the woman (or man) you married could ever betray you. Lie to your face. Get angry at the idea that she (he) might be up to something. 

Personally I couldn't believe my SO could drop off the kids at their friends house, have sex with someone else, pick up the kids come home and act normal. BTW How do you do that and get into bed with your spouse later? 

The reverse of this I think would be jealousy / stalking. I KNOW your cheating (when she or he is not) and your always in detective mode. And it doesn't help when your cheating spouse is telling you "your insane" Because some of us were more able to believe that we really were insane then that this could be going on. And now some of us are going to therapy and taking antidepressants, anti-anxiety (I'm reaching for one of those right now) so we can function. "you drive me crazy" really takes on a new meaning.

- Just another "clueless" spouse.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

It's funny now how I did not act on the red flags. The two significant events were 

1: when she left for work one morning dressed up as though she was going out at night - fire engine red lippy and all, "I'm seeing a client on the way to the office"

2: when her mobile rang one weekend morning and she said "Oh go away" and laughed

It was after this call that I asked her if she was seeing someone and she replied "Oh sure, when would I have time to do that!" This line was a joking refrain between us long before I ever seriously asked her this same question last year. 

I expressed my fear with this jokey question 'Who are you seeing, what's his name?" and her riposte would always be as above. Our little joke but more fool me.

The night I actually found evidence, quite by accident, it was such a shock. I had never let those red flags sink in. I suspected but I just ignored it - I can't really say why. Probably just didn't think it was in her make-up.

Of course now, after the event, it all ads up. So much ads up including comments and situations from her time before me. It all fits with a pattern of behavior, somewhat. All denied.

The tough bit for me will always be the dismissal of this tawdry affair as of little or no significance to the point where she recently said "They happen all the time". You can imagine how many questions I still have - some very basic. 

And I know a lot more than other betrayed spouses. Reconciliation? More like a slow death.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Horizon said:


> It's funny now how I did not act on the red flags. The two significant events were
> 
> 1: when she left for work one morning dressed up as though she was going out at night - fire engine red lippy and all, "I'm seeing a client on the way to the office"
> 
> ...


"affairs happen all the time"

"X had an affair and they are back together and doing great"

"Everyone I know is having an affair"

That's one of the steps they go through with the denial, where they're blaming everyone under the sun for their choices. In this case, it's the old "society made me do it" scam. They call that minimizing it.. it helps them cope with the guilt. Don't let her do that to you. The gas lighting should end now that you know about the affair. By saying they happen all the time, she's basically telling you that it's not normal for you to be as upset as you are, because it's not that big of a deal. When my wife told me these types of things, I told her that I wish I knew how she felt so I could have got a girlfriend. I thought we were different, that our love was special. I didn't realize I had the option to find someone on the side to sneak around with. That it was so acceptable by society, that we were okay with it now. I didn't get that memo.

As for answering questions, she should do that quickly and fully without hesitation or you shouldn't be in R imo...


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

russell28 said:


> "affairs happen all the time"
> 
> "X had an affair and they are back together and doing great"
> 
> ...


Quite right. There have been good days but after 8 months....I just don't know. I'm less hurt by the EA/PA now but there is this worse thing where it just sucks in general. Anything I bring up is negative - I'm Mr Negative. She does nothing to change, nothing as per normal and despite my improvements, still pi**es me off. "Work at night" she says when I protested about yet another frivolous purchase. Our problem with $ is the fact that I don't have full time work. See, the big income and me as part time worker SAHD does not compute. It doesn't take much to see what she really thinks of me. It's like there is zero compassion or understanding - meaning don't ask about money. I have a hundred questions and she wont answer anything now. That's so yesterday isn't it? eg: don't ask about the affair. Meaning don't ask about a damn thing. Through inaction we will magically reconcile :scratchhead:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Horizon said:


> Quite right. There have been good days but after 8 months....I just don't know. I'm less hurt by the EA/PA now but there is this worse thing where it just sucks in general. Anything I bring up is negative - I'm Mr Negative. She does nothing to change, nothing as per normal and despite my improvements, still pi**es me off. "Work at night" she says when I protested about yet another frivolous purchase. Our problem with $ is the fact that I don't have full time work. See, the big income and me as part time worker SAHD does not compute. It doesn't take much to see what she really thinks of me. It's like there is zero compassion or understanding - meaning don't ask about money. I have a hundred questions and she wont answer anything now. That's so yesterday isn't it? eg: don't ask about the affair. Meaning don't ask about a damn thing. Through inaction we will magically reconcile :scratchhead:


No, your relationship will die a slow death..


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but this seems to be just what I'm trying to get at , by this thread. Why would anyone possibly accept this kind of treatment? You didn't KNOW , but you KNEW something was wrong? You had "red Flag" moments, yet still did nothing to find out about them? From your post it sounds like she was pretty blatant about her cheating and you didn't KNOW? Sounds pretty clueless to me.


Some it... Understand my WW is a SA. She is extremely good at lying. Like going on a GNO, having party pics, friends posting on facebook about it, and later they'd laugh about that night. No cheating at all detected. What I didn't pick up on is she'd leave them at 10, and get home at 1am. Ditto with the gym, office events, etc. She always had some proof that she went to these things... She created plausible alibi's every single time.

Also understand that by default, you are inclined to believe rather than question. Human nature. So you trust all those drivers around you to drive normally rather than assume the worst until proven otherwise. Where I beat myself up the most is that I would make excuses in my head for why I should believe her on some of those large redflags... talking myself out of distrust for years.

R or not. Why I did had more to with me and my own issues I needed to sort out in my head than anything she was doing. By the time I sorted myself, the marriage was a different landscape.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Racer said:


> Not true. Since my WW is a SA, I’ve dealt with ONS’s, EA’s, and LTPA’s. For me, the hardest is the LTPA. Why?
> Let’s see... We closed on a new house, she took the day off and screwed him after signing the papers. Her new car, she showed off to him. My new car, the same when she borrowed it. My birthday, her birthday, v-day, xmas, new years, every major holiday, even our vacations, where she worked, even when out shopping for presents for the kids so those toys have the taint on them. Years of memories, dates, and events now tainted by her adultery. There’s even years of family photo’s and being able to associate where she was in her other relationships now. The haunting smiles of a false idol staring at the camera pretending it’s all great in this marriage. All those ‘redflag’ moments like me confronting her that it doesn’t take two hours to go grocery shopping to pick up a couple items... and the countless other lies. A head full of this and the memories of how insane I felt for years feeling something was off but not being able to figure out why and her doing all she could to leave me confused with outlandish excuses and attacks to shift the focus.
> 
> A ONS, hurts... no doubt. But you don’t have years of memories poisoned of this person in the same way where just time itself and occasions now have this new memory there. A ONS betrayed can probably make judgements about their spouse and what they were thinking... a LTPA betrayed gets the added bonus of knowing they screwed, where, and how to celebrate and probably even what gifts were exchanged.


I feel you on many of those things. After the first couple days of finding out, when she was trickling out info, I tried to think how/when she could have done this.

I remember telling my sister it had to happen when she was out with friends. He happened to be there, she got drunk, and they ended up having a ONS. To me, that was the option I was hoping for......Unfortunately, it didnt happen that way. It started as him flirting with her and then texting....She made a conscious decision to meet him at a hotel and lie about her whereabouts......

For the, the fact that it was premeditated was the killer. Even though being drunk is no excuse, it would have been better for me had it happened in a drunken stupor than totally being premeditated.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Racer said:


> Not true. Since my WW is a SA, I’ve dealt with ONS’s, EA’s, and LTPA’s. For me, the hardest is the LTPA. Why?
> Let’s see... We closed on a new house, she took the day off and screwed him after signing the papers. Her new car, she showed off to him. My new car, the same when she borrowed it. My birthday, her birthday, v-day, xmas, new years, every major holiday, even our vacations, where she worked, even when out shopping for presents for the kids so those toys have the taint on them. Years of memories, dates, and events now tainted by her adultery. There’s even years of family photo’s and being able to associate where she was in her other relationships now. The haunting smiles of a false idol staring at the camera pretending it’s all great in this marriage. All those ‘redflag’ moments like me confronting her that it doesn’t take two hours to go grocery shopping to pick up a couple items... and the countless other lies. A head full of this and the memories of how insane I felt for years feeling something was off but not being able to figure out why and her doing all she could to leave me confused with outlandish excuses and attacks to shift the focus.
> 
> A ONS, hurts... no doubt. But you don’t have years of memories poisoned of this person in the same way where just time itself and occasions now have this new memory there. A ONS betrayed can probably make judgements about their spouse and what they were thinking... a LTPA betrayed gets the added bonus of knowing they screwed, where, and how to celebrate and probably even what gifts were exchanged.



How do you find love again after something like that ?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> How do you find love again after something like that ?


Working on it.. will let you know how I make out. So far it's one hell of a struggle.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

russell28 said:


> Working on it.. will let you know how I make out. So far it's one hell of a struggle.


At one of the BAN meetings someone said they would only get serious with someone who had been cheated on so that they knew how much this hurt. Reconciliation seems to be going good but if it had not (or does not) I think that might be a prerequesit.


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

One of the folks at group said "He didn't tell me that we were in a 3 way. " She was saying in effect that she was ok with this if she was invovled *I think...

I don't know about others but I was really ignorent about how ofter marriages crash and burn because of affairs. I had someone go through a list of mutual friends and it was close to half if you count the "pretty sure" ones. It made me feel a TINY bit better. I was going on the idea that I was the only one. I guess in a way I still feel a little like that because it seems from reading the posts that more women are cheated on then the other way around. I might be wrong on that.

Speaking of which I clicked on some link about depression and infidelity and got on some schrinks blog about not being judgemental about infideliety and why everyone should read his book about women who cheat and how great it is equality wise. I try not to wish ill on anyone but I hope this toad gets some of that women's equality shoved in HIS face...

Answering questions is an important piece but the most important one (I think) is showing remorse. Without some serious signs of remorse I think patching things up would be impossible.




russell28 said:


> "affairs happen all the time"
> 
> "X had an affair and they are back together and doing great"
> 
> ...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> Openminded, I think I know what you mean. I worded my statement a little different than you did but we may be talking about the same thing. Here is what I said in a previous post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I think many people make their spouse their reason for living. They will disappoint us. God won't. So I now depend on myself and on God. You have been married the same amount of time I was when I divorced. I hope very much your marriage continues to go well. I know it can be a hard road.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

X-unknown said:


> I mostly stick to therapy and a beyond affairs network "group" meetings but I had a bad flashback and landed here (Again)
> 
> For Shame... I think its pretty harsh to call anyone who has been cheated on clueless. I think a great number of the betrayed could be typed clueless but I think there is one really good reason we were (or) are unable to clue in. Blind Trust. Deep down you feel there is no possibility this can be happening. That the woman (or man) you married could ever betray you. Lie to your face. Get angry at the idea that she (he) might be up to something.
> 
> ...


Dude, I am a BS, too. But I NEVER had "blind trust". Like my old Daddy used to say, "I may have been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night". The problem is that too many BS ARE clueless, or simply don't even try to explain any odd behavior that their spouses engage in. I knew something was wrong in my marriage very early on, and it only took about 2 weeks to piece together the threads of her affair. Sometimes It amazes me that two people can live in the same house and know so little about each other.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

OK we have gone off topic long enough. The topic is, what factors lead to your decision to R or D? There are plenty of other threads where we all can lament the demise of our marriages. I want this to be a more pro-active thread to help explain the decision making process of both the BS and WS.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> OK we have gone off topic long enough. The topic is, what factors lead to your decision to R or D? There are plenty of other threads where we all can lament the demise of our marriages. I want this to be a more pro-active thread to help explain the decision making process of both the BS and WS.


There was no actual decision - it's err....an organic process. I'm being slowly processed into organic matter. 

But seriously, we haven't made a decision or "plan" for reconciliation. Don't talk about it and get on with it is her motto. I guess she won - I rarely bring it up now.

It's limbo land as far as I'm concerned.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Horizon said:


> There was no actual decision - it's err....an organic process. I'm being slowly processed into organic matter.
> 
> But seriously, we haven't made a decision or "plan" for reconciliation. Don't talk about it and get on with it is her motto. I guess she won - I rarely bring it up now.
> 
> It's limbo land as far as I'm concerned.


They call that rug-sweeping.. you might want to give her some reading material on the chances of your R working out if she takes that route. Limbo will lead to misery and/or divorce.

It shouldn't be a battle.. it should be, if you have a question, she answers honestly, if not, she leaves and you divorce her. If she keeps telling you to don't talk about it, you divorce her. ETc..

To keep thread on topic.. my reason is that I figured I'd give it a shot.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

russell28 said:


> They call that rug-sweeping.. you might want to give her some reading material on the chances of your R working out if she takes that route. Limbo will lead to misery and/or divorce.
> 
> It shouldn't be a battle.. it should be, if you have a question, she answers honestly, if not, she leaves and you divorce her. If she keeps telling you to don't talk about it, you divorce her. ETc..
> 
> To keep thread on topic.. my reason is that I figured I'd give it a shot.


That's the crux of the matter. There is no escape hatch - yet. Children, money. 

There is less advantage for me to do the bolt and hole up in a bedroom close by for $100 per week. (besides the fact that I don't have the $ for that right now)

She refuses to leave. That simple. I have been down this path many times in the last 8 months.

So yes, I'm giving it a shot. Yes there are many many questions even though I know quite a bit. I believe I could answer just about all of them myself but it is important to hear it from her mouth. But even then you ask; is this the truth?

The genuine attempt to answer would be welcomed though. I haven't given up but it creates huge drama when I attempt to broach the subject. This is part of her armour - the possible explosive come back. Conversation shut down.

The worse thing is the idea that trickle truth will be part of the landscape for years to come.

I mean, how can you go back for multiple hookups and blatantly state "I never enjoyed it". All cheaters are liars.


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

My ww begged me to stay. When I found out about her A, I was so freakin pissed off I told her I never wanted to see her again. She toke all the bottles of booze in the house and dumped them down the drain. Deleted all the friends from the past she had recently reconnected with from FB and her cell phone. 
She had a BFF since grade school who was always her closest and most trusted friend. Turns out this girl was as toxic as you can get. When her BFF found out she was busted her only concern was me not telling her h about her own affair. My ww told her to f- off and drop dead and we haven't heard from her since. 

All those things she did is the only reason we are still together
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> As background, Some of you are aware of my situation. I immediately chose divorce, then 2 1/2 years afterwards, we attempted to reconcile. We have since separated , permanently, but both feel that our reconciliation was successful.


I guess I have to ask, if are again separated permanently, who is it that the reconciliation was successful?




> What are your stories? How did you come to your decision?


I made the decision to divorce after more than a month of agonizing over whether to stay. I would have only stayed for the kids, not for her.

I came to the decision because just the site of her disgusted me.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Horizon said:


> That's the crux of the matter. There is no escape hatch - yet. Children, money.
> 
> There is less advantage for me to do the bolt and hole up in a bedroom close by for $100 per week. (besides the fact that I don't have the $ for that right now)
> 
> ...


If you are not happy and foresee years of further deceit, then why not start planning to D instead of settling for being married to a cheater?. Don't tell her anything, and work towards the day you can tell her , Adios. Also, why are you afraid of her? If you don't stand up for your rights, she will cheat again and again, because there are no consequences for her. Like Russell said. If you are in limbo, then you are all going to lose, you, your wife and the kids included. Life is too short to settle for this, don't you think?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I guess I have to ask, if are again separated permanently, who is it that the reconciliation was successful?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A legitimate answer. Sometimes you simply can't face the cheater. I know I couldn't.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I guess I have to ask, if are again separated permanently, who is it that the reconciliation was successful? Because we have regained our respect and love for each other. My ex wife worked on her issues harder than I have ever seen or heard of. She became a better person and so did I. Plus, we have managed to keep our family together and happy. I call that success. We may not be together as lovers, but we are together as friends and parents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## cbnero (Dec 6, 2013)

I tried to get stbxw to reconcile for a year. She kept blaming 100% of her unhappiness on me. A few months after the IDLYA speech I found she was talking to a guy at work for the past 3 months or more. She says she is sorry and confesses. But then come the lies. And more lies. And more blame. And then I demand answers on the affair (name, etc...) and she tells me and everyone I am emotionally abusive. Goes and sees an abuse victim counselor for a month. But when I tell her I am going to get help to stop it she says I dont need to. Then more lies. Then she loves me again. Then I ask about doing MC because we never talked about any issues and BOOM she is gone that day never to return. Only phone call is to say she doesnt love me the next day. She sends my parents a text that I need help. Has her mom call me and tell me I make wild accusations and should be on meds. 

Ummm.... yeah. I filed D the next day and had her served. Never ever ever ever ever will reoncile. She is insane. I dont know what to make of it, gave up trying to understand it.

One month after she is gone I find out she was lying about OM the whole time, even from D day. She never was honest or remorseful. 

Anyone ever have a successful R after that? I dont see it happening.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

cbnero said:


> I tried to get stbxw to reconcile for a year. She kept blaming 100% of her unhappiness on me. A few months after the IDLYA speech I found she was talking to a guy at work for the past 3 months or more. She says she is sorry and confesses. But then come the lies. And more lies. And more blame. And then I demand answers on the affair (name, etc...) and she tells me and everyone I am emotionally abusive. Goes and sees an abuse victim counselor for a month. But when I tell her I am going to get help to stop it she says I dont need to. Then more lies. Then she loves me again. Then I ask about doing MC because we never talked about any issues and BOOM she is gone that day never to return. Only phone call is to say she doesnt love me the next day. She sends my parents a text that I need help. Has her mom call me and tell me I make wild accusations and should be on meds.
> 
> Ummm.... yeah. I filed D the next day and had her served. Never ever ever ever ever will reoncile. She is insane. I dont know what to make of it, gave up trying to understand it.
> 
> ...


I'm happy for you in that you are away from that madness now. It is hard for us majority normal & decent people to fathom this kind of mentality. We can never be certain to see the signs but at least are a little wiser. Merry Christmas & best wishes for 2014.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> If you are not happy and foresee years of further deceit, then why not start planning to D instead of settling for being married to a cheater?. Don't tell her anything, and work towards the day you can tell her , Adios. Also, why are you afraid of her? If you don't stand up for your rights, she will cheat again and again, because there are no consequences for her. Like Russell said. If you are in limbo, then you are all going to lose, you, your wife and the kids included. Life is too short to settle for this, don't you think?


Thanks Rookie,

I am working to that day but I still have some belief that we can work it out. It is just that I hate the cone of silence on this sordid affair and have from time to time tried to crack that shield and have her face up to it rather than the rug sweeping and blaming - believing that we would both benefit from it. I am not afraid of her but also understand that I am shackled to her with our children & finances. Right now the kids are obviously a priority. Generally there are no arguments or bad vibes just those 'spikes' for me when the mind movies etc revisit plus of course the fact that she has not had to face any massive consequences. No matter how you slice or dice it we are going to be together for some time yet as the children mature and I build on the work front - I have applied for a sh!t load of full time jobs in the last few months and come up with sweet F**k All as we say. But I am doing plenty of driving right now which has been well paid - just not permanent work though. The reality is that if I walk out the door right now I will lose far more than I gain. I have for some months firmed in my belief that 2014 is make or break year. I'm certain that I will be in a much better financial position - the full time job will happen, and I will have a clearer mind on my future with or without my WS. You may not know it but she is a high functioning alcoholic. I have started at Al-Anon and the things I am listening to are amazing and frightening. The bottom line is you are not dealing with a normal person in the sense that they build defensive walls. I am the bloke outside the walls trying gain access. No, it can't go on forever and I deserve a better life but right now I have to ride out the storm. The truth is I do love the woman but the days of her not owning the fallout of her addictions and behavior are coming to an end.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Length of the affair is a double edge sword.
> 
> My wife, very long affair.. years and years.. long enough for the shine to come off her knight in shining armor, and him to become boring and the same-old-same-old. So she was basically coming out of the fog on her own when I caught her, just in it for the rush. At that point he was back to 'friend' and no longer love. So if you want to R, it's a good head start for the wayward to be realizing what they've done if they're not still blinded by love. If the affair is still early, and they are still feeling passion for the OM/W, then R will be much more of a challenge.
> 
> ...


Russell
I think it is true that almost any woman is capable of cheating, but most do not. That is what most credible data say. E.g. in the often mentioned Shirley Glass book 25% is given as # wives that cheat at least once during their marriages. Other studies put that number at 14%. I am not inclined to question your R decision any further,
But changing partners, changing to the right partner, CAN lower the risk of being cheated on again.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4, just caught up with this thread. Sorry things didn't work out with you and Sweetie.

For me, divorce was just not an option while I had young kids. So I endured some lean years and focussed on my duty. It was not a question of "do I divorce"? It was "how do I make it work?"

At the same time, a divorced friend said to me that his biggest regret was when his marriage started to struggle he didn't either work harder at it or end it. Since divorce was not an option for me, I had to work harder. This kind of became a master class for me in relationships and happiness.

Years later, with grown kids, I did consider divorce, but we were able to work things out. I will say that raising divorce did prove to be the motivation needed to get Mrs Wazza to make certain changes. Prior to that, I think I was taken for granted to an extent. Had I raised it earlier would it have had the same effect? I don't think so, I think we would have divorced.

It's a funny thing, this marriage. Too much hurt that I expect to ever fully forget it, but too much between us to just let go. And now as we get older, we watch our parents spend their final years and go to the grave, and I realise the fact that we both stuck it out and kept trying is exactly the perseverance that will help us support each other in this stage of life. People talk about comfort and security as bad reasons to stay married. I don't think they are enough, but why should they not be part of the equation?

I also think many people are ready to focus to much on the negatives in their spouse and not enough on the good. In a world filled with imperfect people, I am not sure this is wise.

Did I have everything I want from marriage? No. But who ever does? I think that chasing perfection is a search destined to lead to heartbreak.

Merry Christmas.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Rookie4, just caught up with this thread. Sorry things didn't work out with you and Sweetie.
> 
> For me, divorce was just not an option while I had young kids. So I endured some lean years and focussed on my duty. It was not a question of "do I divorce"? It was "how do I make it work?"
> 
> ...


You deserve praise for sticking through... both of you do.

Sadly, in many cases (my case) there was too much pain
and not enough remorse. Allowing that as the standard isn't acceptable
for a healthy marriage in the future.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

cantthinkstraight said:


> You deserve praise for sticking through... both of you do.
> 
> Sadly, in many cases (my case) there was too much pain
> and not enough remorse. Allowing that as the standard isn't acceptable
> for a healthy marriage in the future.



Personal thing where you draw those lines.

Rookie in the past has said I was too soft on Mrs Wazza. Others have too. And while it worked out, it could easily not have.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Rookie in the past has said I was too soft on Mrs Wazza. Others have too. And while it worked out, it could easily not have.


*Too soft?
The result is what I say tells the story!
It is hard to argue about "too soft" with a guy that has over 20 years of R!*


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I would not have done it the way wazza did, but after 20 yrs you cannot argue with the results.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> I would not have done it the way wazza did, but after 20 yrs you cannot argue with the results


. 


*The RESULTS are what matters most!*


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## X-unknown (Oct 14, 2011)

I think Ego and such make it hard to reconcile. Its difficult to see when the marriage was going south to the time the affair is in progress. Anyway the decision question is difficult. If I had gone with my first reaction it would have made any reconciliation choice difficult to impossible. The BAN group people said that it was of value to put off anything unchangeable in the short term. Reconciliation is a bit like the 12 step program which was summed up for me "Fake it till you make it" (Just an opinion) but if your spouse shows remorse and is working on it I think its worth going to that mode for a while. Getting some professional advice (Not internet experts) from a TDoc, PDoc or GDoc are good. If you've not taken care of yourself I think it makes it more difficult to make good decisions. 

If there is anyone in the world that a person might have blind trust in I think it should be your spouse. I think that in our cases that wasn't such a great idea but who else was still surprised when they found out? It was easier for me to think I was nuts.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

movin on said:


> My ww begged me to stay. When I found out about her A, I was so freakin pissed off I told her I never wanted to see her again. She toke all the bottles of booze in the house and dumped them down the drain. Deleted all the friends from the past she had recently reconnected with from FB and her cell phone.
> She had a BFF since grade school who was always her closest and most trusted friend. Turns out this girl was as toxic as you can get. When her BFF found out she was busted her only concern was me not telling her h about her own affair. My ww told her to f- off and drop dead and we haven't heard from her since.
> 
> All those things she did is the only reason we are still together
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you tell her H. He deserves to know.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Rookie4, just caught up with this thread. Sorry things didn't work out with you and Sweetie.
> 
> For me, divorce was just not an option while I had young kids. So I endured some lean years and focussed on my duty. It was not a question of "do I divorce"? It was "how do I make it work?"
> 
> ...


Hi Wazza, and Happy New year! Just a question - did the physical improve, did "certain changes" include this? Just wondering.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

cantthinkstraight said:


> You deserve praise for sticking through... both of you do.
> 
> Sadly, in many cases (my case) there was too much pain
> and not enough remorse. Allowing that as the standard isn't acceptable
> for a healthy marriage in the future.


Yes CTS, this is my situ exactly. There is much worth holding onto and yes now is an impossible time to pack up the tent anyway but some more regular remorse, some active re-building from my WS would help. 2014 - make or break.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Double post 

~ sammy


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Hi Wazza, and Happy New year! Just a question - did the physical improve, did "certain changes" include this? Just wondering.


It's more complex than that, and specifically problems in the physical area were really symptoms of deeper issues. But yes.

ETA : "Certain changes" was about making each other more of a priority and wanting a closer relationship, not just settling for what we had. So the specific issues we confronted were about our situation.

Physically, we have mismatched drives. Expecting each other to change is pointless. Learning to care about each other more and focus on each other's needs was much more successful. Including that there is more and better sex


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Thanks Wazza - Horizon


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