# After a year of crisis, I caught her



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

I caught my fiancee (40y) of 15 years, mother of our 3 wonderful kids (14,10,8y) in a car on the backseat with a 20 y-old boy, who works for the company who put thermal insulation at our house one month ago. They claimed it was just kissing and it appeared to be like that. She said she asked him out and wanted to see whether she was still able to feel sexual attraction to men or not, since we had a hell year and started not feeling attracted to me anymore when I kissed her or made love, and wanted to know whether it was like this with all men.

My fiancé is from Brazil and came to our country as an au-pair girl. She was married to a much older man whom she left (with an affair that didn’t last long) and then she met me. We were 22 and she 25 at the time. We totally fell for each other, supporting and understanding. My family never really accepted her, just tolerated her, bc of her past and because she was a “simple” girl, who hadn’t finished school and didn't have a proper job. I graduated and became a teacher. She supported me during my studying/working, and raised our kids. She was the stay-at-home part, and I managed the financial part. During these years she suffered many depression crises, which I only now understand were due to a ADHS problem, which always caused her also communication and academic problems. She tried to attend schools but always had big problems with learning and left these school projects and a lot of things she started. Lately she cleaned houses, attended elderly people and organized the animation at children’s parties. She had a low-esteem problem, too.

During the years we had our quarrels. I shouted at her quite harshly a few times when she wanted to quit, once I even hit her with the shower head on her hand which left a bruise; at that time she wanted to press charges against me, but didn’t in the end. Everytime everything cooled down and we started again loving each other fervently until last year.

During a trip to Turkey we met a nice seller of typical sweets, exchanged Facebook names “just to keep in touch”. Well, at home she started writing to this man (she confessed she was attracted by him) and took up the effort to translate everything to Turkish just to communicate with him. I accepted at the beginning, but when she was facebooking a lot of hours at once with him I asked her with respected not to exaggerate, since this could end into an emotional affair. that was the time I started becoming jealous. One day we had a quarrel about this problem and about also raising issues (Once I was too harsh on my son). And there is happened: I kicked her three times and pushed her out of the door telling her to go away. I instantly woke from this hysterical attack and called her in again. From this moment nothing was like before. Three weeks later we reconciled, at least wanted to try, but it was an up-and-down year, since I was in a place of fear (jealousy) and was working on my anger outburst (which I managed to control! None after that day!) and my jealousy. I started to sneak in her phone and facebook account, she noticed and trust was damaged again, but I found out she had written more than 600 (!) Word pages with her whatsapp to the Turk! My jealousy had some reason to be there. Chats were always flirtatious, and she often started questioning about sex, but nothing really important serious. 

Due to all this mess I started to be controlling (never was before) and this was also bad for the situation.

Through MC and IC I can say that I have recovered A LOT and am starting to feel again like before all this insecurities entered my life. The controlling stopped, the quarrels stopped, I did everything I could to save this relationship. And when everything was apparently going to work out (my kids came up and told me they noticed how well everything was going and how I had changed), she said there’s no more attraction and she would like to live like just friends but stay together for the sake of the kids. One night she went out with friends, but talking about her evening I noticed some inconsistencies (at that time she started to tell me lies, and some I found out leaving me again insecure). But about that one night I was sure there was something going on. When, two weeks later she told me she wanted to see a friend who had the flu, and stay from 5-9 or 10, I remembered the other night. Suddenly she said the friend couldn’t see her anymore, but she wanted to go out anyway to see other friends. My gut feeling was shouting loud. I followed her with my sister’s car (and saw how she entered a car on a parking lot. I followed them outside of town where they parked on a lonely dark spot and stopped there. I waited and waited and was feeling like **** for having followed her (never did that before) and started back home for being ashamed for what I did. I asked a female friend of ours what to do. She told me to confront the situation, so it’s out and there are no more lies and fears. So I did. That day she moved to a friend couple of ours, and we only contact for organizing children’s needs (school, afterschool activities). They can see or sleep anyone of us, whenever they want, she can also see them whenever she wants. It’s 3 days now that she lives there. She says she must “heal” and doesn’t know how this will continue, but says she is not feeling love anymore. I know the situation looks bad, but I am determined to give it a shot, since I have recovered a lot, want to sort out and try to reconcile. I have adopted a 180-ish attitude with her, not to be a pain in her ass with her, and to give me strength, although I am feeling crushed and depressed inside. 

I am aware of all my mistakes, but I also know I gave her all my love and support and everything I could offer her. I have made a lot of progress with my issues and want to continue. 

What do you think is the best strategy for me to give it still a chance for not destroying our family?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

dancerinthedark said:


> I caught my fiancee (40y) of 15 years, mother of our 3 wonderful kids (14,10,8y) in a car on the backseat with a 20 y-old boy, who works for the company who put thermal insulation at our house one month ago. They claimed it was just kissing and it appeared to be like that. She said she asked him out and *wanted to see whether she was still able to feel sexual attraction to men* or not, since we had a hell year and started not feeling attracted to me anymore when I kissed her or made love, and *wanted to know whether it was like this with all men*.


The parts in bold above comprise what is quite possibly one of the largest loads of absolute bullsh*t that I've heard in my life. _Please_ tell me that you didn't fall for this.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

dancerinthedark said:


> What do you think is the best strategy for me to give it still a chance for not destroying our family?


Be as friendly and courteous with her as you can during the divorce proceedings. You need to work with her to raise your kids for the rest of your lives. Be civil.

You mention the 180. Good strategy. But it seems like you want to do it to bring her back. It DOES NOT work that way.


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Wake her with D papers. She is not remorseful.

Has she gone NC with the"boy"?

she needs to change jobs.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yikes...

First off, I'll tell ya this, early on after my wife's affair came to light, I too very much believed that I had dramatically improved my attitude, behavior, treatment of my wife, etc. via the MC we were seeing for some time. I confidently felt that my part of the problems had been resolved, and therefore I should be well equipped to help save my marriage by convincing and showing my wife the new me. That all I needed was "another chance because this time it's real" but now I can look back and realize I was just desperate and reactionary. Yes, I had come to realize a lot of the things I was doing were wrong, and how those were part of our problems, but I certainly hadn't had the time to cement long term change and attitude/behavior adjustment. For example: Just because you learn the proper way to exercise, buy all the proper gear and eat healthy, doesn't make you a healthy individual and make 30lbs disappear from your gut. Having the knowledge is only a part of the solution, but the bigger part is sticking to the changes you know you need to make over time.

Anyhow, you really need to re-read about the 180, because it doesn't sound like you are employing it properly at all. It sounds like you're making it very clear to her, within mere days of discovering her betrayal, that you'll forgive her and are desperate to win her back. If she wasn't already dissatisfied or found you unattractive before, you'll only be making it worse by pursuing her now like this.

I'm not saying you should run off and file for divorce (yet, though this can be a good strategy) but this is the time where you should be cutting her off and possibly exposing her. No communication except regarding the kids, cut her off financially, start focusing fully on your needs and self-improvement. Like start working out, eating healthy (you are probably not eating much at all these days, so take advantage of that disinterest by only eating good healthy food), clean up and fix up the house, repair anything that needs repaired, and make extra time for social fun time with your friends. All of these things will help make you more desirable and confident, both to her and to others.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

harrybrown said:


> Wake her with D papers. She is not remorseful.
> 
> Has she gone NC with the"boy"?
> 
> she needs to change jobs.


It doesn't sound like she's gone NC at all. It sounds like they've separated and she's still telling him that she doesn't love him and using BS excuses. Therefore my guess is that she's using the extra private time she has to pursue other men that much more.

So yes, a wake up call is needed. It might be different if she was instantly remorseful and was begging his forgiveness, but as it stands now, she needs to be made uncomfortable and to see that he won't let her walk all over him.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Be as friendly and courteous with her as you can during the divorce proceedings. You need to work with her to raise your kids for the rest of your lives. Be civil.


 They are not married.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

There is no excuse for her cheating; just as there is no excuse for hitting her. Either one can and often do end a relationship.

So as I see it, she has just as much reason to end the relationship as you do.

It's up to the both of you to decide if the relationship can be patched up. It can happen. "theguy" has done it; and his wife's infidelity was much more egregious than your GF's. But your odds are long, with both parties having to heal from the others transgressions. 

Perhaps though, in some sense that can help get you to an equal moral high ground; and be a starting point.

I'd suggest MC as a start.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

dancerinthedark said:


> she said there’s no more attraction and she would like to live like just friends but stay together for the sake of the kids.
> What do you think is the best strategy for me to give it still a chance for not destroying our family?


Let me explain it to you my man. Its perfectly clear to me what she's saying. She is no longer attracted to you but wants to stay together for the kids sake. Your out dawg.
But I also know you gave her all your love, support, and everything you could offer her; not to mention a few punches, pushes, kicks and verbal abuse. 
Now you want to know the best strategy for not destroying your family. My advise is catch the next bus out of town.


----------



## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

She wants you to pay the bills, and wants other men for sex. Your relationship is done. Your first clue should have been when she had her first? affair. You need to check with an attorney on how to dissolve your relationship with this woman, and your state laws concerning this. You may have a common law marriage. Which will be as equally difficult to dissolve.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Sorry for what you're going through.

My only question for you is... how the h*ll do you have a fiancee of *FIFTEEN YEARS?!?!*

You either want to marry her, or you don't.

Or at the very least, call a spade a spade and admit that you are co-habitating and will NEVER marry.

While I don't condone cheating, maybe she just gave up.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

I got what I deserve, I know, I was expecting your direct answers, I thought it would be good to hear it the hard way. Let me give some more info and answer your questions:

1) NOT MARRIED: Since she's psychologically quite unstable (ADHS), she can't finish what she starts ( school, jobs, etc.). She divorced from her former husband but never got her papers organized! I pushed her a few times to do it, but in the end nothing came out and she said We are just fine like this. It was ok also for me, since I am not a great believer of marriage as such.

2) post by GUSPOLINSKI "Please tell me that you didn't fall for this."

Listen, she was saying since long, she could not feel anything and something was wrong with her, plus her psychological condition, … I am not sure. Anyway, my first reaction was also "what a bull****".

3) She is not remorseful, so she didnt NC with him. When I told the guy I would tell his girlfriend, she said she would sue me for I hitting her last year. Should I expose everything? Does this give me more chances to win her back?

4) It's true, I did all those ugly things that I said I did, and this cannot be pardoned. But guys, we are dealing with a very difficult person, emotionally unstable and whatnot. Many asked me, how could I bare her, but I love her. So yes, I did these things and its my fault, but she's got a good share why I came to the point of doing it.

5) She says she doesn't believe me I can change, and doesn't believe her love can come back. It feels like hopelessness. Do you all think there is absolutely no chance, and if yes, what should be done?

6) After I caught them, we went to a friend to discuss what should be done. There I asked her for another try, which first she denied, then accepted, then denied again, until her friend pushed her to say no. She said she would stay at our friends house (a married couple, both 10 years younger than us and living la vida loca). I accepted her denial and separated quite peacefully.

Thank you all for the replies!


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Don't you think if we give it another try, let trust grow again, romance again, love and attraction can also grow?


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Interesting that nobody has addressed that he's been physically violent with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustwatching (Jul 8, 2014)

she's gonna sue if you expose to OM girlfriend really?
and she's asking you to change ? dude you need to dump her like yesterday.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting that nobody has addressed that he's been physically violent with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Posts 9 and 10 did mention it.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

OK there seems to be four major issues here:


First of all, I believe you are a bit of a psycho and dangerous and need treatment for your violent behaviour. From what you have described in terms of hitting and kicking her and also throwing her out and letting her back in again, I would have had you locked up immediately - end of story. She didn't because she isn't as confident or whatever. You really need to get yourself treated for this. You lost all of my sympathy at first but kudos to you for recognising and admitting it and looking to improve. Also this seems to be something she is still considering taking legal action on.


Secondly, there is the problems she has with completing stuff etc. She needs to be treated for this and needs to really find her self worth again. You need to help her get there.


Thirdly, there is the issue of her infidelity. Like others have said, needing to try out other men to get her self-confidence back is bull$h!t. She needs to understand what she has done is wrong and she needs to own it completely and not attribute blame to you or anything/anyone else. Marital problems can be blamed 50/50 on you both maybe. Cheating is 100% down to her. You need to address this with her and make her understand and an ultimatum to leave or get with the program may help.


Finally, there is the question of what you are going to do next ? And this depends on what you (and she) wants out of this relationship. You can split and go your own way or you can help her with her medical/psychological problems and work on reconciliation in a true, actions-speak-louder-than-words and open way. Also get her divorce finalised and then marry the girl if you want to stay with her!

Wish you the best! (And stop hitting women!!! Or anyone for that matter!)


----------



## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

dancerinthedark said:


> I caught my fiancee (40y) of 15 years, mother of our 3 wonderful kids (14,10,8y) in a car on the backseat with a 20 y-old boy, who works for the company who put thermal insulation at our house one month ago. They claimed it was just kissing and it appeared to be like that.
> 
> * A young lad and she were only kissing, plzzzzzzzzzz
> You should have had the balls and opened the door and you would have been either in Divorce now or Trying to R*
> ...


1.GO full blown 180
2.serve her divorce papers A.S.A.P.
3.Tell her you want all the details and until you get them you will not consider anything other than Divource
4.You have no chance of R until she truly wants to R and she must be remorseful as she has turned it all on you when SHE has caused virtually all the problems by not being faithful
5.Address your violent behaviour A.S.A.P.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

I confronted them the same night, I got them out of the car. When I appeared (they were like 30 minutes in there), they came out with all clothes on, and that's it. No signs of nothing.

When she told me the attraction to other men story, she neither giggled nor anything, but had a sad look in her face.

I know this sounds pathetic, and I know you may think "yeah, yeah, what a stupid excuse". It appeared true to me.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> My only question for you is... how the h*ll do you have a fiancee of *FIFTEEN YEARS?!?!*


Because the man is either a genius or has guardian angel that is doing a good job.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

dancerinthedark said:


> 5) She says she doesn't believe me I can change, and doesn't believe her love can come back. It feels like hopelessness. Do you all think there is absolutely no chance, and if yes, what should be done?


Doesn't believe you can change
Doesn't believe her love can come back.

Guys. LISTEN to a woman when she says it. It has to be a horrible thing for them to have to say. DO NOT take it lightly.

She's done. This is a classic walk-away wife. They don't come back. Her screwing the boy is the least of your issues. Start rebuilding man. You're 37. I envy you. You get a mulligan.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Forgot to mention, that she already had two other crisis when she told me "It's over. I don't love you anymore". With lots of patience and rebuilding, and in one of the crisis even meds, she felt the love again. I know it, and all of our friends always said she was full in love with me and she told them for years. That's what makes me think to retry it, knowing her. Well, the affair issues arouse this time.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> 3) She is not remorseful, so she didnt NC with him. When I told the guy I would tell his girlfriend, she said she would sue me for I hitting her last year. Should I expose everything? Does this give me more chances to win her back?
> 
> *Depends. Exposing can usually help bring an end to an affair, which can often "wake up" a cheating spouse to the reality of what they've done and the consequences they will face. In your case, I don't get the impression that she's fallen hard for this boy, like in an typical affair cloud where she's so in love that she can't see reality. If so, then exposure helps with that. Since you do have a history of violence however, if you expose she will VERY likely retaliate by trying to air all of your dirty laundry as well. She'll feel guilt, shame, and the negative judgement of family and friends, and want to deflect some of that by presenting you as a bad guy as well, and physical violence will go a long way towards that end. So be prepared for that if you do.
> 
> ...


Back when my marriage fell apart, I discovered that I had a lot of change and learning to do within myself. One of the things I found out I was really guilty of was that I had a need to be viewed by others in a positive light. It was, subconsciously mind you, very important to me that I be seen as a really great guy. A good husband, a good father, a good Christian, etc. I really had no idea. A good friend of mine pointed this out about a week after our D-Day with my wife. He had a great example of how I would do this:

He and I would regularly play video games together on my couch every other friday night or so. One night he came over and on our way to the living room we walked past the dining room where there was a mess of dirty dishes on the table. In passing, I said something like, "Ugh... [Wife's name] said she was going to clean this up two days ago... this is embarrassing." When retelling me this example, he pointed out that I had absolutely no reason to tell him that my wife had said that. I had no reason to call out the mess as being her fault. There was no need to essentially throw her under the bus, and it's a crappy thing to do to your spouse. He pointed out that the reason I did is because he felt it was my little way of trying to make myself look good by putting her down. Like the mess was embarrassing, a lousy feeling of course, but I could deflect it by shifting the responsibility to my wife, totally without thinking about what I was doing or why.

It was a mini-wake up call for me. I realized that I did little things like that all the time. All the little things my wife did wrong, I had ways of letting other people know about it, and in time everyone I knew thought I was a saint of a husband. When news of her affair got out, everyone thought I was even more wonderful for trying to work it out. I even made efforts to control my image to such a degree that whenever she found a friend who would take her side on the marriage mess, I would find various ways to try to talk to them so that they would be on my side. Nearly all of her family were on my "side" even. Everyone was telling me how lucky my wife is to have me, how wonderful I was, and then pressuring her to return home to me and "do the right thing." But she knew there were two sides to the story, she knew I had several extremely relationally destructive behaviors/habits contributing to the marriage problems, but after you've been exposed as a cheater, will anyone care to listen to you complain about your betrayed spouse?

It reached a point where it wasn't that she was unwilling to give the marriage a second chance, she just couldn't see how I would ever change now that her adultry had placed me even higher on the pedestal above her, how friends/family could ever see us together and not silently judge her and praise me, how we could ever overcome our challenges. I would try to tell her how I was trying hard, reading relationship books, going to counseling, etc., but she didn't want to hear it. Hearing that would just anger her because she'd heard that before, and she didn't want to hear any more about why I'm great and she's not. Words weren't going to change anything at that point, and I eventually figured out that there would be no short term salvaging of the marriage. I had to commit to long term change and follow through with it, because only seeing the actual genuine change convinced her to give us a second chance.


Sorry for the tremendously long story. I'm not trying to say you're a bad guy, or that your situation is hopeless, but I am saying that you have very very serious issues that you should not sugar coat or explain away or defend. Those are the issues you should be getting help with while you are doing the 180.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

A 40 yr old women with 3 kids with a 20 yr old kid....this case screams hard line approach.

It's time for tough love here and your 1st course of action is to make this affair as inconvenent and as uncomfortable as possible to continue.

So expose this affair to the girl friend and both the OM (other man) and WW (wayward wife)family.

Take her off all the account...I'm talking cell phone credit cards and bank accounts.

Ask her to leave, and start bring home boxes and help her back her stuff....she may not leave but it will show her how confident you are in letting her go.

At the end of the day you need to show her the new reality she has chosen.

As long as she is still contacting the boytoy this marriage is toast...You need to start making her second guess her choices, she need to think twice it what she is losing and that her disicions have consequences.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

dancerinthedark said:


> Forgot to mention, that she already had two other crisis when she told me "It's over. I don't love you anymore". With lots of patience and rebuilding, and in one of the crisis even meds, she felt the love again. I know it, and all of our friends always said she was full in love with me and she told them for years. That's what makes me think to retry it, knowing her. Well, the affair issues arouse this time.


Yet, she doesn't want to get married.
Anyway, you are abusive she likes to cheat. Until you fix yourself, her mental problems aside, you two are not healthy for each other.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

No that she thinks she can bag hot young guys she thinks she has a golden pu**cy......It's time to bring her down a noch and show her a confident man that won't take any sh1t.

BTW good for you on taking the step to work on your self and get the help you needed to be a better man. Now it's time to stop being a door mat and show your wife that she can reap the rewards of the new you or you can go find someone else that will.

The way I see it is you did your part, now just let your wife go ...it just might save your marriage.

Dude your old lady banged some kid (sick) I would be pissed, not begging for her to come back! 

But what the hell she has your number she can keep phucking around until she gets booted and can always go back to you.

Then next year and the next.....more guys banging your old lady while you beg her to come home.....

Again your wife really needs to see a guy that won't take this disrespect, so please... just let her go....it might save your marriage.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> you are abusive


From what I read he went and got help for that and is working on him self.....now it's his old lady that needs to stop phucking a 20 yr old and be a mother to 3 kids.

His old lady resents the hell out of OP and justifies their phucked up history to have a unhealthy relationship with a boy.


----------



## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

dancerinthedark said:


> I caught my fiancee (40y) in a car *on the backseat *with a 20 y-old boy. They claimed it was just kissing


*You can "just kiss" in the front seat.*


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting that nobody has addressed that he's been physically violent with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did - it was my first bullet in my response.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Graywolf2 said:


> *You can "just kiss" in the front seat.*


Not if you do not want the gearstick confused with something else.


----------



## lovesmanis (Oct 9, 2014)

Give her time and space to see what she wants.

If she wants to split up, don't be nasty about it. You both have been bad to each other so just end it amicably.

If she wants to reconcile, then you both need a lot of counselling so you can sort yourselves out. This should be done before you reconcile because if you dont, you will just fall back into old habits.

As for the hitting her thing, I have been abused by partners, and that is probably the biggest killer of love. Who wants to make love to, be around someone who screams at them, hits them and kicks them? Not anyone that is sane.

Treating her like that, you have your work cut out for you because as far as I can see, you hitting her is a lot worse than her cheating. When a person is hit by the person they love they feel betrayed, broken, trust is gone.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

the guy said:


> From what I read he went and got help for that and is working on him self.....now it's his old lady that needs to stop phucking a 20 yr old and be a mother to 3 kids.


 From what I read he hit her at least twice. I'd explain minimization, but it wold be a derail. I stand by my use of the present tense in my sentence.



the guy said:


> have a unhealthy relationship with a boy.


[email protected]


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Speaking of present tense...presently OP should be thinking about kicking the phuck out of this kid for banging his old lady.

But hey, that's just me.....some folks just aren't built for jail time!

Plus OP has 3 kids to think about while his old lady plays the 40 yr old teenager crap.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> [email protected]


If I didn't have double standards I wouldn't have any standards at all

end of threadjack!


----------



## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

the guy said:


> But hey, that's just me.....some folks just aren't built for jail time!
> .


Its only jail time if they can find a witness and you haven't got an alibi


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

So you are violent to your wife and children? Oh.


----------



## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> So you are violent to your wife and children? Oh.


The OP I think was twice violent to his fiancé
'The guy' was talking about the OM


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

G.J. said:


> The OP I think was twice violent to his fiancé
> 'The guy' was talking about the OM


That's all he admitted to.

With violent partners it's often same as with cheating spouses and their under-reporting of their infidelities.

"I shouted once or twice" = ranted and raved constantly.

"I only hit him/her a couple of times" = Lost count of how many times I punched them.

And so forth.


----------



## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> That's all he admitted to.
> 
> With violent partners it's the often same with cheating spouses and their under-reporting of their infidelities.
> 
> ...


i c


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> That's all he admitted to.
> 
> With violent partners it's the often same with cheating spouses and their under-reporting of their infidelities.
> 
> ...


Once you own your sh1t you stop minimizing.

What I found interesting is OP mentioned something earlier about beaten is old lady cuz she did some sh1t to him to cause it.

I gotta go back and find it to quote it....but I'm not sure of the context.........I'LL BE BAAACK!


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> 4) It's true, I did all those ugly things that I said I did, and this cannot be pardoned. But guys, we are dealing with a very difficult person, emotionally unstable and whatnot. Many asked me, how could I bare her, but I love her. So yes, I did these things and its my fault, but she's got a good share why I came to the point of doing it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

^^^^Yes, classic minimization.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

From were I come from there is no "but"....when your beaten on your old lady its a phucking choice....there is no "but"!!!!

You fix that sh1t and put a stop to *your* choices and stop blaming the crap you did on someone else.

And that's what OP's old lady needs to do....She continues to phuck around cuz her old man is a POS for pushing her around.

She is phucking around cuz she wants to!


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

the guy said:


> From were I come from there is no "but"....when your beaten on your old lady its a phucking choice....there is no "but"!!!!
> 
> You fix that sh1t and put a stop to *your* choices and stop blaming the crap you did on someone else.
> 
> ...


He needs treatment for his problems, she needs treatment for her problems.

What a horrible mess.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You are so worried about what you can do to keep your old lady around...when you should be focusing on what you can do do have some one want to be around you.

You gotta do the heavy lifting to have poeple *want* to be around you...and if they don't want to be around you then phuck them!

STOP CHASING A CHEATER!!!

Start working on getting the chicks to chase you.


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Dancer

Your fiance is a liar and a cheater.

She is also mental.

But worse than all that is that you are an abuser.

I think you should put the focus on you. Not her.

Do the 180. No contact except about the kids.

If she wants out let her out.

Be cool.
Be calm.
Be confident.

Fix you.

Your kids need and deserve a stable parent and stable family environment.

Give that to them.

I think the time apart can be enlightening for you.

Fix you.

In a few months see if you really still love her. And she can see if she still loves you.

Because it takes two to reconcile. Not one.

HM


----------



## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Can someone point out the infidelity to me? I must have missed it.

They aren't married. Live together, make babies. Raise babies.

He loses temper, hits her a few times. She falls out of love with him.

She tells him she doesn't love him. Doesnt want to or can't move out. Says she wants to date others. She dates. He stalks.

She moves out. Now he wants her back. 

What am I missing folks?

Dude just stay away from her, for all of your sakes. Join a gym.

ETA: yes I read about the sexting with the guy from Turkey. OP knew about it, gave tacit approval because he thought it wasn't serious
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Can someone point out the infidelity to me? I must have missed it.


You already addressed her burgeoning EA.


> She was married to a much older man whom she left *(with an affair that didn’t last long)* and then she met me.



He hit her because she was failing in school or work. Sorry, I don't hit my kids for that let alone an adult.


----------



## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Kinda redefines Bat Sh!t Crazy for me... Doubled down.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> What do you think is the best strategy for me to give it still a chance for not destroying our family?


Pay for her to attend lots and lots of therapy.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger (Apr 7, 2014)

Please, read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...prepare-potential-divorce-custody-battle.html and protect yourself and your kids.

Best wishes


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

dancerinthedark said:


> she felt the love again.


I thought I was the luckiest man alive. My marriage wasn't perfect, but we loved each other. I was her life, she was mine. We were best friends. Soul mates forever. Imagine that instant when I realized she had actually hated me for the preceeding 10 years or so. I call it my "kick in the gut" moment. Think about that as you read about the thousands of other husbands when they were given the ILYBINILWY speech. It floors them 95% of the time.

How do you girls do it?


----------



## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> Forgot to mention, that she already had two other crisis when she told me "It's over. I don't love you anymore". With lots of patience and rebuilding, and in one of the crisis even meds, she felt the love again. I know it, and all of our friends always said she was full in love with me and she told them for years. *That's what makes me think to retry it, knowing her.* Well, the affair issues arouse this time.


But you did and look what it got you, in the end it failed and it will fail again.

You are deep in denial about your relationship. You can't force this to work and the more you push the more you will get pushed back. 

Just walk away and what happens, happens. Stop trying to control her because you can't and never could.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ArmyofJuan said:


> But you did and look what it got you, in the end it failed and it will fail again.
> 
> You are deep in denial about your relationship. You can't force this to work and the more you push the more you will get pushed back.
> 
> Just walk away and what happens, happens. Stop trying to control her because you can't and never could.


And read NMMNG and MMSLP.


----------



## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Her leaving you was the best thing that could have happened.
Take it as the gift it is and keep working on yourself.

She will cheat again.
Right now you need to get your anger issues under control and make sure that NEVER happens again.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

to MATTMATT:

About your talking about my supposed underreporting. If you dont believe me, that I was violent with her TWICE, then hey, what’s the point of my speaking here voluntarily and openly? I stick to TWICE, in 15 years.

And no, I was not ranting and raving constantly. Fullstop. I admit I sometimes (if I have to give it a number a would say 10 times in 15 years) got quite angry at her because of some of her unresponsible behaviour. Like yesterday, school called me, our son was not feeling well. I couldnt leave work, so asked her. She picked him up, and instead of taking him home, she left him for 57 minutes on a cold winter morning in the car waiting for her to finish her cleaning job. What ist he result? Two hours later my son got much worse and his fever skyrocketed. When I came home, he told me he thinks it’ mum’s fault he got so bad. He couldnt even feel his feet!!! She then said, „Oh it was just ten minutes, ... I received a call for a job ... I forgot to take the money and had to go back. ...“ Guys, these are the kind of situation where I lose my temper! Luckily, after my working on myself, I could manage to tell her in a frank, earnest, way, this is not a behaviour I will tolerate her to have with my children. I didn’t use any mean word, I stopped the conversation when I was finished telling her this, but I showed her that I was angry at her for her unresponsible (and possibly dangerous!) behaviour with the kids.

And as sombody wrote, I didnt hit her because she failed at school or jobs. Actually, I helped her finally find a school to go, I helped her with the learning, I read her stuff, translated and summarized it in portuguese. I was motivating her all the time to sit down and study, and she said all the time „I can’t, it’s too difficult“. And in the end she achieved the goals at schools and passed the tests. Once she left school 1 exam before finishing everything. That made me really angry.


I am happy to be strong at the moment and give a calm and safe home for the kids. And I am happy that I reacted in a controlled way to the above mentioned situation with my son! And thank you all for your sincere answers, they are really helpful! Thanks


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Any act of violence in a relationship is wrong.

I think you are acknowledging this, which is good.

Your fiance is from Brazil. In which country do you live? I have some ideas for some resources that will be of help, but as this is country specific I need to know which country you live in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

We live in Italy. We are already in MC, and she said she knows she's got psychological issues and said she is going to start IC. Thanks for any resources.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

When are you starting your anger management therapy?


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Although 16 months have passed since the last accident, I will follow your advice and speak to my MC therapist tomorrow about anger management therapy.

Furthermore, she asked me today to come back home, for the children's sake, because they are suffering so much. She would like to sleep in another room than mine. She said so, because she saw that it is difficult for her to find a job, and that it is difficult to find a place to stay, plus it is impossible for her to sustain her new life. At the moment she is staying in a friend couple's living room.

The problem is she said this in front of all the kids. For God's sake, I tell her every day to stop talking in front of the children. Furthermore she is setting up the kids against me, they told me she tells them I want to stop her legally to see them, plus other things the children told me I want to do against her. Thanks God they are not buying all this bllst. I told them it's not fair for saying this things and keep telling them to stay next to her and not avoid her, as the two older boys are doing at the moment. I really don't want them to start hating their mother!

Since she commented something about legal threats, I have the impression she wants to come back home to find proves of whatnot, or she wants to set up something. This is my gut feeling speaking now.

I told her again, not to start such discussions in from of the kids, and when they were not in the same room, I said that I think it is too early to even think about her coming back home, we would start again having problems. Not to make the conversation too long, I told her we could speak about this in MC, tomorrow afternoon.

Any tips what to do?

Thanks for your time and support!


----------



## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Beating your wife is not an "accident." It's not the same as knocking over a glass of milk on the table.

A person with any kind of morals would be almost crippled- they would feel absolutely terrible about having hurt someone they were supposed to love and respect. They would feel absolutely 100% unworthy of being in a relationship with their punching bag.

Then again, a person with morals wouldn't be caught in the back seat of a car with a man half her age by her fiance of 15 years.

Come to think of it, a person of morals wouldn't hang around someone who beat her.

And, actually, a person of morals wouldn't catch his fiance of 15 years in the back seat of a car and want to stay in a relationship with her.

I think you two are going to be okay. You seem like a couple that are just made for each other.


----------



## vms (Dec 17, 2014)

You are an abuser. She needs a restraining order against you. You aren't remorseful, YOU STILL BLAME HER.

Disgusting.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> Although 16 months have passed since the last accident,


Best "but" statement ever.

For the record, for the person being hit, 16 months is irrelevant. Because they relive them every day. You'll learn that in anger management.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> I told her again, not to start such discussions in from of the kids, and when they were not in the same room, I said that I think it is too early to even think about her coming back home, we would start again having problems. Not to make the conversation too long, I told her we could speak about this in MC, tomorrow afternoon.
> 
> Any tips what to do?


What you're describing here is your boundary - don't talk about this in front of the kids - and your consequence that you impose when she crosses OVER your boundary and talks to you in front of the kids anyway. Oh, wait, you don't HAVE a consequence. You don't DO anything when she does it over and over, so she has no reason to STOP doing it. 

Does that make sense? Boundaries are meaningless - even harmful - if you don't enforce them. So the next time she starts talking in front of the kids, make some gesture to get her to stop talking - in the US it would be holding your hand out, palm facing her, in the 'stop' symbol (like crossing guards) - and you quickly say 'I TOLD you I wouldn't discuss this in front of the kids." and you WALK OUT. No matter what you were in the middle of. Walk out. Leave her presence. That's her consequence for overstepping your boundary. I promise it works.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

1) I know what I did is wrong, I own it. I don’t blame her for it. I know it is my responsibility for all this mess. I did everything I could to improve, I worked on myself, I did everything decided in MC, I got better, the therapist told me I could be proud of my evolution, the comments here moved me to rethink everything and do even more, so I will start anger management tomorrow. 

Please tell me what I should do more than that, since hearing what I did wrong helps me getting aware of it every day more and more, but is not directing me anywhere; I, actually we need direction.

2) What I am blaming her is doing things that may harm our children; that is not something neither I nor my children are responsible for. Thanks turnera for your insightful comments, these are the kind that help me understand my mistakes better and 
give me some tips not making the situation worse.

3) Would it be good to stop the separation now? Yes, why? No, why?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't think you guys should decide anything without first going to a MC for at least 2 sessions.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

What are your communications like ? Is she fluent in Italian or you in Portuguese ? Or do you speak English to each other ? How would counselling work ? In Italian ?

You have already been told what you did wrong and you are working on it - that is fine.

However, she is cheating, being disrespectful, sly, cunning and is a liar. Why would you want to reconcile with someone like that ? And you know that if she comes home, that she will be looking to set you up and possibly kick you out of your own house. So be careful.

It sounds like this marriage was over a long time ago unless you tell me what I am missing here.


----------



## Tabitha (Jun 17, 2014)

I have a question for you.... You mention her psychological issues--is she on SSRI anti-depressants? 

A cautionary tale:

My good husband (of now almost 30 yrs) was put on them for anxiety about 8-9 yrs ago. It was a gradual spiral down into practically becoming an alcoholic, apathetic zombie. I didn't see the connection because it didn't happen instantly (the alcohol cravings started about 4 months after fully onto the med, but all this was discovered with hindsight). It wasn't until he ended up in the ER 2 summers ago that we discovered the connection. The drug alone can cause "lack of judgment" and "loss of inhibition" (and combine it with being drunk--watch out!), and by this time he was emailing female friends inappropriately and could "justify" anything to me--you couldn't argue with him because he didn't make sense (and this guy has multiple graduate degrees!). When we made the connection that his Rx pretty much landed him in the ER, I started researching it and discovered how many relationships had been torn apart by a partner being on these meds. 

Hubby had even told me at one time (when I as trying to initiate sex) that he "didn't feel that way towards me anymore". We knew that "LOW libido" was a common side-effect, but his was the lesser known "NO libido" along with sexual dysfunction if he did manage an erection. This doesn't go over well with a guy, so that's when he turned to p0rn to try and jumpstart things back at the start when he first started losing his libido. 

These drugs affect the neurotransmitter, Dopamine, which is the "in love" brain chemical. 

I found this forum and started lurking when I was thinking I couldn't take much more of how he'd become. It was before we figured out the med connection. After we (I) figured it out, thankfully he agreed to wean down off it. I showed him forum post after post that was pretty much his story, and he agreed to trust me and get off the drug. It's been a long process, and it's taken 1 ½ yrs to get him down over 75% off the med (we're doing it REAL slow because of what I've read while researching withdrawal problems). At 50% off, he said he could feel a fog lifting and apologized profusely for the way he'd acted and the things he'd done to put our marriage in jeopardy--he said that person wasn't who he was. He could not see it at the time, but with a more clear head, he can see how the drug affected so much about him and his actions and choices. Heck, he changed positions in his company and moved us halfway across the country because not long after getting on the drug, he all the sudden hated where he was and HAD to change, even if the new position didn't particular suit his background. I'm just glad he did it with his JOB and not his MARRIAGE! 

Anyway, if she's on any meds, do some research about them. They can cause these kinds of issues and lead you to make choices that you wouldn't have made otherwise. 

I keep thinking I will create a thread about this very thing. With the millions of people on ADs these days, and the stories I've read online, I know we're not the only marriage almost torn apart by actions done/not done while on meds.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

MANFROMLAMANCHA,
even if I accepted and endured all the obviously correct, negative comments about my behavior, it is good to hear positive feedback as well. Thanks you!

Counseling is in Italian, she is fluent.

Thanks for the tips. Now it's almost a week after DD and I also start to think like you. I made a mistake, put every possible effort and means to make it right again (if such a thing is possible after my behavior!), and what I got were lies and less and less effort to make this work (probably understandable), to finish with a cheating situation. I think I don't deserve anything from her for my behavior, and I accept that. I think the cheating is also something I deserved. Having said that and acknowledging all bad on my side, you're right, is there a future for a relationship of two such person people? Nope.

What I try to minimize are the side effects for the children, and she is not consistent in doing so; actually she only says it, but then does what she shouldn't do (speak badly to children on my back, talk about problems in front of them, puts them in possibly dangerous situations (->kid in car)). I know they will suffer for my, our mistakes, but I think we can really make a difference in the amount of it and in trying to be the best parents we can after such a mess. What other thing could we possibly do?


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Tabitha, she is not under SSRI at the moment (as far as she didn't hide it from me), but she was for 6 months in 2011. So there shouldn't be any connection, unless they have long term effects.

Thanks for the input! You never learn enough!


----------



## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

Firstly I am sorry that you are in this situation and that gets quite complicated, particularly when there are children involved. Both of you are to blame for the situation. Nothing that she did justified physical abuse and your actions did not lead to her emotional affair, that is all her. Can love and respect be restored? Yes but this has to start with honesty and hard work from both parties. All contact with OM must cease and both of you have to be open with media and devices. I have to tell you I don't see any desire from her to reconcile this relationship. 

As a father, your first concern must be the children. I would recommend that you set up standard visitation. If after sometime she is remorseful for her deeds and is willing to forgive your transgressions, then possibly there could be reconciliation. I highly doubt that will happen, but it is possible. As for you I would explore how to control your anger and feelings of jealousy as it will negatively impact any future relationships.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dancer, I think the real problem here is that you're talking about a serial cheater. That takes a different kind of person, and almost always spells doom for marriages. Why? Because the serial cheater never settles down. They do, for the amount of time that she's getting what she wants, but the minute she decides you just aren't doing it for her, well, she starts looking around. Better money, better sex, better whatever. If she won't discuss this in therapy - her tendency to seek out ... more ... then you have no chance in hell of making this work. I mean, sure, you can surrender and tell her she can screw as many men as she wants, as long as she comes home to you, but guess how that'll work out?

You need to do some hard thinking as to WHY this is so important to you.


----------



## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

She is a serial cheater and you are an abuser. You two are not married to each other. However, you have children. You are the one with the job. She relies on you to pay for her living expenses. You are in a quandry. 

You need to see an attorney to seek legal custody of your children. As for your long-time girlfriend, she needs to find work to support herself. If she is unskilled, she can start working for "Merry Maids". I have great respect for many ladies who work for them as I use their services to clean my investment rental homes. 

You need to end your relationship. I see no solution to your future with your girlfriend.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

VFW, I totally agree with your entire post. Yes, love and respect can be restored, but the question now is whether I want it to happen. You say she doesn’t appear to have any desire to reconcile this relationship, I would have agreed on that just until today when she asked to come back. It’s for the kids and because it’s difficult for her to find a job? Well, that was me talking for the last half year! How come she only sees this now?

For what I have done, there is no way to make it unhappen. What I can do and offer her is to help her financially for a couple of months until she is stable, with a place to stay and a fix job. But this will only happen in a few months, if she is really in a bad situation. I, and I’m talking also for my kids, don’t want her to end badly, I owe her at least this help, since she also endured with me for 15 years! But this is a step I will do when the right time is due.

Yes, my first and foremost concern are my kids, and I have started an unexpectedly better relationship with them! I spend more time with them. They appear more responsible, do little chores without asking them (take out the milk or the corn flakes for breakfast, feed the fish, a.s.o), where before I had to ask them every time! I have the impression they are also growing with the situation. And they are so strong, my God am I impressed and proud of them! And I tell them everytime I have the chance! It hurts me to see how they are slowly cutting out and rejecting their mother, but my convincing them to go and see her is not working. I will not push this issue further, but won’t stop either telling them it’s their mother. Yesterday we had a big meal at home, with a longtime friend who stayed with his kids for the weekend, just to be there for me and support me in this dark time. My parents were also there, and my father commented on my children’s behavior, because they were playing with my friend’s kids, and they were laughing out loud, rolling on the floor. My father said to my mother: “And you were worried about them, look at them now!” She said almost crying: “I still can’t sleep at night because what happened (I didn’t tell them about the affair, only of the separation).” My father responded: “I think they sleep better than you!”

And so it is. They are not really missing her very much, since I throw the house keeping (I strictly rejected my mother’s offers!) easily, because I started helping out more the last year when things got bad, and got so well at it, that it comes naturally and everything flows just fine. So no need there for her. Plus, since she has her problems with academic matters, she passed the helping with the homework to me and my brother-in-law, who lives just next doors. They are just missing their mother who was sitting next to them chatting and whatsapping all the time, being there physically but not really mentally. Of course, she hugged them and was present for taking care of them in other ways (especially coiffing my daughter, at which I am a catastrophe!). They must miss her anyhow, but they neither show it, nor it is apparent. Maybe this has yet to come.

Turnera, whether she is a serial cheater is a good question. Apart from the EA with the Turk and the last one with the 21-year old kid, I am pretty positive there were none others. I mean, my gut feeling (and the 600-pages of a Word-document of her chats I sent to my email when I sneaked in her mobile phone! (Thank you whatsapp for the send-the-chat-history-to-email function!). She even had to google-translate them all to-and-back from English to Portuguese, doubling the amount of work to write them, because he was too lazy to do his part in translating them from his turk to portuguese!) told me those times something was going on, but before that, there was nothing. And everybody knows her like this. When she had bad times with her men, then yes, she did cheat (first with her first husband, and now with our crisis. In both cases she felt the pressure of controlling and asking from us). That makes me wonder, if it’s good to have such a person next to you, that when there are serious problems and her support is needed, she just walks away. I am starting to really want somebody there, both in good and bad times.

Roselyn, I am a serial abuser, and she a serial cheater? Maybe. Maybe I am doing now what here it’s called a classic minimization, but I don’t see it that way. Yes, I abused, yes, she cheated, yes, but is it serial? Hmmm …. MC, IC and anger management will tell. Roselyn, you tell me to end my relationship. But I won’t, since it’s already over!!!!
I am experiencing new energy from having cut out all her lies, the insecurity, my clinging to make it work. Now I am again assured since I know the truth about me and her. I left the limbo by checking out! Since I have a distance from the relationship, I finally understand the issues, mine and hers. I can, want and will address mine. What she will do is her thing now.


----------



## Augusto (Aug 14, 2013)

I think the two of you might be better off divorced with this many issues, how much room is there for love?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Her alleged "kissing" this boy makes the same amount of sense as your physically beating her does! I think that you had better get yourself to a lawyer's office post haste to verify that common law marriage statutes are not applicable in your jurisdiction.

In any event, I'd get the hell out of Dodge!*


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Got our first MC session after DD. Got the info to a place to address my anger management. Put it clear I check out already, but claimed I want to give her full access to kids, total flexible times, I couldn't care less, since most of the time they're with me. Organised everything, written down. At the end of the session she claimed she still loved me, but accepts that I don't want to continue anymore.

WTF? She tells for 1,5 years she wants out, is not attracted anymore, doesn't love me anymore, is hopeless this will work out, double cheats on me, is caught, moves out and now, as per magic, after I check out for real, she wants quickly back with loving feelings. You can imagine what it's on my mind. F.O.!!! I still love her, but I don't want to be and live with her anymore.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

dancerinthedark said:


> I caught *my fiancee (40y) of 15 years*, mother of our 3 wonderful kids....


Why'd you load the gun if you never intended to pull the trigger?

15 years?!
Jesus dude.

Not condoning her actions but this has GOT to have something to do with her problems man.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I was wondering when someone was going to ask that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

tacoma said:


> Why'd you load the gun if you never intended to pull the trigger?
> 
> 15 years?!
> Jesus dude.
> ...





turnera said:


> I was wondering when someone was going to ask that.


Asked and answered.


Lila said:


> I'm curious Dancerinthedark.....
> 
> You mentioned her as your fiance of 15 years. Why have you not married her?






> 1) NOT MARRIED: Since she's psychologically quite unstable (ADHS), she can't finish what she starts ( school, jobs, etc.). She divorced from her former husband but never got her papers organized! I pushed her a few times to do it, but in the end nothing came out and she said We are just fine like this. It was ok also for me, since I am not a great believer of marriage as such.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

I answered it: 

QUOTE:

1) NOT MARRIED: Since she's psychologically quite unstable (ADHS), she can't finish what she starts ( school, jobs, etc.). She divorced from her former husband but never got her papers organized! I pushed her a few times to do it, but in the end nothing came out and she said we are just fine like this. It was ok also for me, since I am not a great believer of marriage as such.

There was never a really serious talk about marriage, maybe I used the word fiancee to loosely. I mean, we knew we wanted to stay together (who doesn't want in a relationship you will ask) and consequently made three kids. In case something would happen to me I safeguarded her with two life insurances on her name and my will has her as the heir (house, car, money, ...). In hindsight I recognize we were quite naive, we thought as long as we were fine together, then we would stay together. If it wouldn't work anymore anymore, then we would just quit amicably. And we thought a marriage wouldn't change anything, since numbers of falling apart marriages have skyrocketed.

Besides the cheating what makes me think differently than before are these days without her at home. Before I thought that her leaving would devastate the family. In fact it didn't. Kids are doing alright, both at school, with peers, at home. Sure they must feel afraid, unsure, sad, but as already said, they are not showing it. They are getting all kind of emotional support by my family. Then I feel a light feeling now, as if a burden fell from my shoulders. I think I was also in deep denial about the relationship the last year. Desperate to loose what we had been working at. Was in a place of fear.

Now I don't want to be in such a place anymore. I don't trust her, I'm afraid she just wants to reenter the house, because in Italy it's quite difficult to make someone leave the house where you are living if somebody doesn't want to leave it; even if somebody stops paying the rent it takes years to have them out of an apartment. So I think she informed herself and that's her plan: come back and reclaim her right to stay and not move. Her way telling me she loves me, but at the same time accepting that I don't want to keep the relationship tells me she wants to blame ME for not continuing, so there is not real repentance. And if I accepted her back I had to endure a person with whom it doesn't work anymore until she finds a match that can offer her more. So I would be used as a spring board. But I just don't want anymore, after I found out how free I feel since when she left and how life opened up a lot of light, chances and motivation. As somebody said, it was a real gift she moved out without informing herself first. I know this sounds cynical, but that's how I fell now.


----------



## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> tacoma said:
> 
> 
> > Why'd you load the gun if you never intended to pull the trigger?
> ...


If the divorce laws in Italy are similar to those in the U.S., why would any financially successful Italian man wish to marry?

In any event, the OP's delay in proposing in no way justifies his partner's infidelity and it is disappointing that experienced posters on TAM/CWI would even suggest this.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Here are some resources I found for you, OP:

European Association for Counselling - The Voice for Counselling in EuropeEuropean Association for Counselling
AngloINFO Counselling & Therapists The AngloFILE Business Directory : Rome, Italy
AngloINFO Counselling & Therapists The AngloFILE Business Directory : Tuscany, Italy
Counselling Coaching - International Professional Counselling and Coaching Organisations

Hope they'll be of some use.


----------



## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

The prognosis is very poor. Too much damage on both ends. Forgiveness does not mean you stay together in an abusive relationship. Leave her alone. Let her be. Get everything legally organized in reference to the kids, keep it civil always and move on with your own life. She had the courtesy to tell you "It's over". Accept it and keep up with the counseling. Kicking her was one hell of a way to put the lid on the casket of her dead feelings for you.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

I want to go on with my life, I want to leave her alone. I am positive about it and happy to be it like this. And I know it was my fault for her feelings. 

The problem is she has started to first telling she wanted back home, then yesterday at MC she said she still loved me. Yesterday we also agreed she would come at 4PM to stay with the children, now she asked to come earlier, by noon, is nice to me, has started writing more texts, including me when saying good morning to the children, telling "I love you all". She wants to come back, and this is making me somewhat nervous. I told her I would see a doctor to test for and STDs. She claimed she didn't have sex with anyone except me, and this was insulting her! She was desperate and wanted to try to become aroused with another to kickstart our relationship (hahaha). She wrote me, please, go on with the tests, nothing would come out of it. Sure, condoms also do the job of not getting anything!

I told her I must be sure and must be healthy for my children now. Since there were lies before I cannot say whether these are lies again. So yes, I want securities now!

And I want a life without lies back!


----------



## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

dancerinthedark said:


> I want to go on with my life, I want to leave her alone. I am positive about it and happy to be it like this. And I know it was my fault for her feelings.
> 
> The problem is she has started to first telling she wanted back home, then yesterday at MC she said she still loved me. Yesterday we also agreed she would come at 4PM to stay with the children, now she asked to come earlier, by noon, is nice to me, has started writing more texts, including me when saying good morning to the children, telling "I love you all". She wants to come back, and this is making me somewhat nervous. I told her I would see a doctor to test for and STDs. She claimed she didn't have sex with anyone except me, and this was insulting her! She was desperate and wanted to try to become aroused with another to kickstart our relationship (hahaha). She wrote me, please, go on with the tests, nothing would come out of it. Sure, condoms also do the job of not getting anything!
> 
> ...


This is very typical, and you should learn how to read her sudden reversals. The grass is not greener on the other side and now she's backtracking like mad, telling you what you want to hear (like she didn't sleep with anyone else but you, blah, blah), and doing everything she can to get you back.

She may have serious co-dependency issues and she may just want to make sure she has you around because you're her security blanket.

Don't fall for any of this. You both have a lot of issues to work on by yourselves. Her pleading is not going to solve the problems, it's probably going to just whitewash them.


----------



## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

dancerinthedark said:


> She was desperate and wanted to try to become aroused with another to kickstart our relationship
> 
> there were lies before I cannot say whether these are lies again. !


Just tell het to stop lying or not say anything when she makes these ridiculous statements

You have already pointed to why she wants to come back on a previous post so keep that in mind..... always


----------



## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> WTF? She tells for 1,5 years she wants out, is not attracted anymore, doesn't love me anymore, is hopeless this will work out, double cheats on me, is caught, moves out and now, as per magic, after I check out for real, she wants quickly back with loving feelings. You can imagine what it's on my mind. F.O.!!! I still love her, but I don't want to be and live with her anymore.


Yup, they only want you when you stop wanting them, this is textbook behavior. Of course when you give in all of the sudden they are out the door again, bit of a catch-22. The less you want her, the more she will want you, its a push-pull thing.

I went through the same thing, gave her what she wanted and suddenly she didn't want it anymore. Funny that.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Thank you for your posts.

I was starting to feel good with her away, and now she moved just next door to our neighbor, who has a free room, where his old mother slept but she died a year ago and is now free.

This proximity is made me nervous, the kids have also started behaving weird, since mom is just next doors, and they are moving to and fro now. I wanted to go out tonight and asked her if she wanted and could stay with the kids, put them to bed and wait until I came back. She said yes. Then suddenly during the evening she texted me saying she would go back to the neighbor, because our youngest daughter wanted to stay with mom for the night. She she left our older ones alone! Not that something could remotely happen, but that was not the deal! So I texted her telling, why she left the other alone at home! She said she would go back until I came home. Problem here is, that the daughter had to go with her, but it was way too late for her being around, it was 10PM, where normally she is already in bed by 9PM.

This is causing stress to the children! Is it only me?


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

carmen ohio said:


> If the divorce laws in Italy are similar to those in the U.S., why would any financially successful Italian man wish to marry?
> 
> In any event, the OP's delay in proposing in no way justifies his partner's infidelity and it is disappointing that experienced posters on TAM/CWI would even suggest this.


I saw no one even seem to suggest this.

In fact I specifically stated otherwise but you can continue to only read the parts you want to if you like.


----------



## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I saw no one even seem to suggest this.
> 
> In fact I specifically stated otherwise but you can continue to only read the parts you want to if you like.


tacoma,

Here's what you said (emphasis added):



tacoma said:


> Why'd you load the gun if you never intended to pull the trigger?
> 
> 15 years?!
> Jesus dude.
> ...


The tone of your post was judgmental, even snide. You were highly critical of the OP's failure to marry (you even swore at him over it). Yes, you said you were not _"condoning her actions,"_ but then you immediately suggested that _"her problems"_ resulted at least in part from his failure to marry her.

I logically presumed that the _"problems"_ to which you referred included her infidelity, since that is the subject of the thread. If correct, then I don't see how one can read your statement as anything other than a suggestion that the OP is at least partly to blame for his partner's adulterous behavior. If you meant something else, let me know and I'll reconsider what I wrote.

In any case, since we know practically nothing about the OP or his circumstances, I don't think it's our place to criticize him for waiting 15 before proposing. If anything, given what we we've been told about her behavior, we should probably commend him for it.


----------



## kapil (Jan 15, 2015)

Hello dancerinthedark,

If things are going tough for you, you can go for divorce also. But in my opinion, ask a relationship expert like Mahendra Trivedi, his website is trivedimasterwellness dot com


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

carmen ohio said:


> The tone of your post was judgmental, even snide.


Judgemental?
Most definately and I have no problem with that.
If you're going to propose to someone you should actually eventually marry them.
Call me crazy.

Snide?
You and I apparently have a different definition of the word.



> You were highly critical of the OP's failure to marry (you even swore at him over it).


Definately I was critical and again, I have no problem with that considering the context.

I don't see where I was swearing unless of course you consider using "Jesus" as swearing which I do not.
Now if I had said "Jesus ****ing christ!"
That would be swearing.



> Yes, you said you were not _"condoning her actions,"_ but then you immediately suggested that _"her problems"_ resulted at least in part from his failure to marry her.


Can you state that it didn't have anything to do with it?
A 15 year engagement to me is, well...it's bull**** really and I can see why it might be a trigger to lead someone to believe they can get a better deal elsewhere.
I don't think that's an irrational leap



> I logically presumed that the _"problems"_ to which you referred included her infidelity, ....


Your logic has failed you.(that was "snide", see the difference?)
Infidelity is never the problem, it's always a symptom of a problem or multiple problems.
infidelity is the outcome you get when an immature, self-centered, or unethical person attempts to either deal with or ignore that problem.



> In any case, since we know practically nothing about the OP or his circumstances, I don't think it's our place to criticize him for waiting 15 before proposing. If anything, given what we we've been told about her behavior, we should probably commend him for it.


I wholeheartedly disagree.
(That wasn't snide, I am very sincere about that one)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Weird. the long engagement question has been asked in many infidelity threads. I do not understand why it irked CO in this one.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Oh. Just noticed something.

She is mentally stable enough to breed with, but not mentally stable enough to marry?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Oh. Just noticed something.
> 
> She is mentally stable enough to breed with, but not mentally stable enough to marry?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She is mentally stable enough to breed with, but not mentally stable enough to marry?
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

I already told you, she hasb't organised her divorce paper yet! And it was her who said there was no need to marry, after she saw the paperwork SHE had to do! Would you marry in such conditions? Common guys, I didn't push the issue for sure (sometimes I even did tell,her to start with the paperwork), but if she had prepared everything, and,confronted my with "everything is ready, lets marry finally" I would have done it. We have been together for 15 years and have had 3 children, for gods sake, I am tired for bring blamed for her things SHE didn't do!!! She also blames me for her not having finished school, for her not having found a job, etc. I helped every way I could, but at the same time I had to finish college, find a fix job, and provide for the family
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

dancerinthedark said:


> She is mentally stable enough to breed with, but not mentally stable enough to marry?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I already told you, she hasb't organised her divorce paper yet! And it was her who said there was no need to marry, after she saw the paperwork SHE had to do! Would you marry in such conditions? Common guys, I didn't push the issue for sure (sometimes I even did tell,her to start with the paperwork), but if she had prepared everything, and,confronted my with "everything is ready, lets marry finally" I would have done it. We have been together for 15 years and have had 3 children, for gods sake, I am tired for bring blamed for her things SHE didn't do!!! She also blames me for her not having finished school, for her not having found a job, etc. I helped every way I could, but at the same time I had to finish college, find a fix job, and provide for the family
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


Stop with the "come on, guys" speech as we are all not buying it, as the majority of us are here because we made the ultimate commitment which you are unwilling to make happen for whatever reason. Sorry but when you sign on for her and her problems, then you are somewhat responsible for certain things from that point forward if you could have helped to correct them, which lots of them you could have. It is like saying I am not responsible for providing for the other spouses children and will give them nothing (love, money, support, etc) even though I knew they were part of the package when I decided to enter a M with this person. You take on the package. PERIOD!

So you were willing to be with this woman, have children with her, commit to a LTR relationship, support her through schooling, support her in her daily needs, but not help her to arrange the paperwork for the D, yet if she did that and came to you for M then you would grant it to her. Sounds like you never wanted to be married or that you aren't the man you are claiming to be and just want the ideal and fantasy of the family without the overall commitment and dedication that accompany it?? 

Admit it to yourself that you never wanted it, and now that she is moving on, you think that you have something special to offer her for all of her years of staying with you? I don't get it, but then if I wanted the relationship I would have pushed her to do the paperwork and helped her in getting it done. It wasn't solely her responsibility if you really wanted the M you claim or you would have done your part to help. I think the truth is that you are in love with her but more the ideal of family and marriage (but not necessarily with her). You are ashamed of her, as are your family by your admission, for her lack of schooling, commitment to finish things, and therefor until she can "prove" she can accomplish something (graduate and gain education, finish the D papers, or come to you for the M), then you are not wanting to seal the commitment of M made years ago.

I know for me if I truly wanted M and the commitment, then I wouldn't have settled for 15 years of waiting and would have done my part to assist her in making our union happen and if she didn't want it, then I would have moved on to find someone that was willing to make the commitment I wanted to me. You had the power but chose your route and now things are falling apart for you and you are claiming once again foul on her part and that she is not doing things as you wanted them, but you are doing nothing to help those things occur except stand back and point the fingers and get violent and angered in the process. Just my $0.02.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dancer, fyi, the reason this is coming up is that for many women, this engaged but not married issues becomes a BIG deal, and often a VERY bitter source for resentment, leading to all sorts of issues in relationships. Obviously that's not the deal here, but we're kind of programmed to see that as a big red flag, if that makes any sense.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Sorry for the "come on guys", but you really don't know what I have gone through, that is why I vented this here.
Let's put the things clear: you are right, squeaker, when you say I never wanted to marry in the first place. I already told so before in the forum, so let's take this as a fact. I repeat what I exactly wrote, I am not a big believer of marriage. But I wouldn't mind, or wouldn't have minded either to marry. I am not proactively open to it. But yes, I would have married her, to make her feel sure, or whatnot. For the bureaucratic part, I looked for various forms, printed them and put the in her hand to fill out, I brought her to offices to inform herself, etc. Unfortunately, only she was admitted to specific offices (since we are not related, they told us I couldn't participate, i.e. at the embassy in Milan). She also had to go back to Brazil to sort some papers out, but she didn't even mention them. All this things can only be made by her in person. She put everything aside with an "leave-it-as-it-is"-attitude.

Now, at first I was afraid of losing the family as such, but I accepted she wanted to leave and started my life again. And saw everything was fine without her, I mean, we had to readapt ourselves, children and me. But we did it in a very short period of time. I set my mind for such a life, and hadn't the feeling anymore everything was falling apart!
Now she wants back, tells me 15 years are too many to throw away, she still loves and has attraction for me. 

Exactly the opposite of what she was saying until DD!

This, plus the fact that she is trying to stick more and more near the house (for the children), makes me nervous, since I was already in the progress of trying to fall out of love with her. I am asking her now to keep more distance!

And another thing, squeakier. How do you know what I didn't do to avoid those problems? You don't know what I did or didn't! I found her 4 different psychologist to solve her problems (she always left after a couple of sessions), I practically studied her school stuff beforehand, translated it into Portuguese and explained to her, prepared flashcard, power points, resumees etc. Our MC therapist told me, I was doing too much stuff for her, problem is, if I didn't, she wouldn't start things. Example: a short time ago she claimed she wanted to start studying English. MC therapist told me to let her do it on herself. Days pass by, I ask her whether she found a school, she didn't even look for. I wait a bit more, but when I tell her that the inscription period will finish soon, she asked me to find some numbers for her. I did. Wait a couple of days, ask her whether she phoned, she didn't even call one of the addresses I had found. The day before inscription closure I phone, she is happy I did. I arrange a meeting. She goes, but nothing comes out of it. Should I myself go attending the course, or do all the rest of things she doesn't in her life? Sorry, I did my mistakes, true, I admit them and have been doing everything possible to make it even, but I cannot delete the action, I can only prove not to let it happen again. And be a good father and person, who has learned from his mistakes. I think she should be it, too. that's it.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

turnera, that makes a lot of sense, since all her friends were pressuring HER to finally marry. maybe that was part of the issue here. thanks


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

dancerinthedark said:


> And another thing, squeakier. How do you know what I didn't do to avoid those problems? You don't know what I did or didn't! I found her 4 different psychologist to solve her problems (she always left after a couple of sessions), I practically studied her school stuff beforehand, translated it into Portuguese and explained to her, prepared flashcard, power points, resumees etc. Our MC therapist told me, I was doing too much stuff for her, problem is, if I didn't, she wouldn't start things. Example: a short time ago she claimed she wanted to start studying English. MC therapist told me to let her do it on herself. Days pass by, I ask her whether she found a school, she didn't even look for. I wait a bit more, but when I tell her that the inscription period will finish soon, she asked me to find some numbers for her. I did. Wait a couple of days, ask her whether she phoned, she didn't even call one of the addresses I had found. The day before inscription closure I phone, she is happy I did. I arrange a meeting. She goes, but nothing comes out of it. Should I myself go attending the course, or do all the rest of things she doesn't in her life? Sorry, I did my mistakes, true, I admit them and have been doing everything possible to make it even, but I cannot delete the action, I can only prove not to let it happen again. And be a good father and person, who has learned from his mistakes. I think she should be it, too. that's it.


Sorry your upset and don't like my assessment. You are right. I have no idea what you have done, but that is not the reason to take it out on me, as you know as well as anyone that we only know what you want to tell us and you can spin it anyway you want to make her, you, or both of you the good or bad guy. If you are doing this to some anonymous person on the internet that doesn't agree with you, then what are you doing to her in person? I bet she doesn't feel she can really speak her mind and relay her true thoughts and feelings?

Of course I can say that the way it looks to me, she is only doing things for you as she sees it as something that you want or need and not doing them for her. The fact is if she really wanted to do them then she would find a way, We tell it to posters on here all the time. If you mean what you say and really want to make it happen, you will find a way. She may only be doing this as she see these things as a way to get accolades and support from you and your family. Maybe the whole group of you have put so much pressure on her for these things (and made her feel so bad for not accomplishing them) that she sees this as the only way to make you happy. If she isn't doing things even though you have handed her everything prepared on a silver platter, then it says either she is entirely lazy and undriven, has some psychological or physiological issues keeping it from occurring,or more than likely the case that it isn't something she values or desires (other than to appease and delight you). Maybe she just wants to be accepted for whom she is and not wanting to constantly be made into something she is not (or doesn't want to be). You chose her as she was, so either be happy with her as is and stop trying to change her, or move on. Maybe the new guy just accepts her for whom she is and that is the attraction she has to him (which she doesn't know him really and those things change in a committed relationship).

My $0.02 and worth what you paid for it.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> Now she wants back, tells me 15 years are too many to throw away, she still loves and has attraction for me.


That is ONLY because she thought she had all the cards and you'd sit by the phone waiting for her, stroking her ego, like a good little dog. And then you went and spoiled it for her. So now she wants you back to prove she can wrap you back around her finger.

btw, if you somehow do end up back together, YOU need to go to therapy to learn about boundaries YOU should be setting and the consequences you should be enacting to protect yourself if she tramples those boundaries. For example, NOT YOUR JOB to help your wife help herself. Let her get therapy, let her go, let her do whatever the hell she wants, no matter to you because you'll have boundaries over how much crap you will take from her if she doesn't get help.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Squeaker, I am not upset with you, maybe my post it sounded like this. Actually, I am thankful to you all answering my posts, since this helps me understanding the situation, her and myself. I am also happy for your harsh answers. What I was expecting was asking me things instead of assume things and post on them. this would have been more fair. And sure, I can provide you with whatever I want here, but do you think by not telling you how I honestly see the situation and hiding things or lying, would this be helpful to me and the situation?

What I’m trying now is starting to take action to solve the issues one by one. Since she and her friends didn’t look for a therapist for her since she moved out, I asked a doctor friend of ours to do it for her, since it’s a trustworth person for both of us.

Now, about our emotional situation, she spoke to me again restating the separation helped her rediscover she had feelings for me, and that my pressure made her turn away from me more. But she is afraid it is again only an illusion that everything will work out, and that she also feels the not-acceptance by my family.

A few post told me not to fall into this kind of talk, and that was my first reaction, too. Any women out there, who found they still loved their man after a separation? And do you have any stories of reconciliation after it?

PS: turnera, I will work on the boundaries issue you mention, good hint!


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

dancerinthedark said:


> What I was expecting was asking me things instead of assume things and post on them. this would have been more fair. And sure, I can provide you with whatever I want here, but do you think by not telling you how I honestly see the situation and hiding things or lying, would this be helpful to me and the situation?


All I can say is that these two things aren't working for you. Time to revisit yourself. You have expectations that others aren't meeting and you get upset and lash out when they don't. 

I never said you weren't doing anything (just your assumption of my statement), just that you could have been doing more, as we all can be doing more especially if we are asking more of the other person than they are capable of or willing to give, and if we are unwilling to give more, then we need to lower our expectations. 

Sorry but if me assuming is wrong then it is not right for you to do it either and you do it again when you assume I meant that you were lying, just meant we only know what we are presented and nothing more. As for hiding things and everything being about how you see them, that is what most everyone that comes here does. They leave out little bits. Lets face it, in every situation, we have a view that many others might not share and we present what we feel is needed to support that viewpoint, when other information overlooked changes or could cast a different light on the situation. We do have some on here that purposely leave out things as they know it was wrong and want to purposely paint the spouse in a negative light to exonerate themselves or out them on the higher road and this is common to human nature. Sometimes to make a point or show things we need to take a leap of faith in our assumptions.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Squeakr,
My assumption wasn’t an assumption first of all. You WROTE I could have done more, I wasn’t just assuming you thought that or what not. And I didn’t say your assuming was wrong, I said it would have felt fair, which is different. Now, we could discuss this issue more, but I am here to find solutions and ideas for my relationship. I understand you could be offended by skipping this kind of discussions, since you take your time to post, and I am grateful, but I don’t see how this can help me further with my more important issues. If this discussion of ours can help, please show me, I’m not getting the point, Thanks.

Of course I can only present my view of things and not a totally objective one, nobody can’t. What I’m TRYING to do with this thread is help us to understand and find solutions. And I’m also TRYING not to shed any more negative light on my spouse, than I do with me. You read what I wrote about myself, nothing to be really proud of. I think both of us had our share of responsibility, but what I really feel and think is that there is no one that is right or wrong, we just BOTH LOST with the story. I’m trying to understand, go on and solve the issues.

So, coming back to the question I ask in my last post: Is it really only textbook behaviour, when a WS come back after rejection with feelings of love? It is really only their ego speaking? Or are there experiences where a woman really woke up and found still some love for husband lurking inside her?


----------



## Suspecting2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

dancerinthedark said:


> Squeakr,
> My assumption wasn?t an assumption first of all. You WROTE I could have done more, I wasn?t just assuming you thought that or what not. And I didn?t say your assuming was wrong, I said it would have felt fair, which is different. Now, we could discuss this issue more, but I am here to find solutions and ideas for my relationship. I understand you could be offended by skipping this kind of discussions, since you take your time to post, and I am grateful, but I don?t see how this can help me further with my more important issues. If this discussion of ours can help, please show me, I?m not getting the point, Thanks.
> 
> Of course I can only present my view of things and not a totally objective one, nobody can?t. What I?m TRYING to do with this thread is help us to understand and find solutions. And I?m also TRYING not to shed any more negative light on my spouse, than I do with me. You read what I wrote about myself, nothing to be really proud of. I think both of us had our share of responsibility, but what I really feel and think is that there is no one that is right or wrong, we just BOTH LOST with the story. I?m trying to understand, go on and solve the issues.
> ...



yes, there are women that woke up but took much bigger concequences to wake them. Also much more time and showing it with actions not words.

The thing is that even your fiance had a epepifany , she must prove it for some time, not just a week.

Also she needs to want to R when is doing ok on her own to see if she wants you or just her lifestyle


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

One big "No u" cluster. You BOTH are making assumptions based on personal interpretations of each others words. Good lord, both of you quit arguing based on semantics.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I quit trying to get him to see things in a different point of view a while ago. No need for you arm chair junior moderation. It's his thread and was on topic so if you didn't want to read it then move along. Your words were no bigger help!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> I quit trying to get him to see things in a different point of view a while ago. No need for you arm chair junior moderation. It's his thread and was on topic so if you didn't want to read it then move along. Your words were no bigger help!


Crying because he doesn't agree with your assessment is not on topic. No different than your arm chair psychology and ironic complaining. Follow your own advice.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > I quit trying to get him to see things in a different point of view a while ago. No need for you arm chair junior moderation. It's his thread and was on topic so if you didn't want to read it then move along. Your words were no bigger help!
> ...


So you mean the exact same thing you are doing? Got it. Hello pot meet kettle!


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

After two days of good speaking and an overall change of her personality (friends speaking of her as being more humble, softer, not ontheedge anymore) and an openness about speaking of our problems, I opened up and told her we may give it another go, only after she could prove she cn manage to gain control of her life again (job, place to live on her own, IC, boundaries), that is in a couple of months. She mildly agreed, with the intent of coming back quicker. I was quite firm in my requests.

We went for a sledge afternoon with the kids and there she bumped on a wall and broke both of the ankles! Now I accepted her back for the up to two months (!!!) of recovering!!! Do I feel like a chump doing it, but there is no other option for her, and I feel this is the right thing to do. I told her I would stick to our plan, she can stay for the recovery, then has to move out again, prover herself and then we will speak about a R. What a crazy situation!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How awful for her! What is sledge?


----------



## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

turnera said:


> How awful for her! What is sledge?


Like sled. Good for breaking ankles...


----------



## Mrs. Rodriguez (Aug 5, 2012)

If I were your wife I would've left you the second you laid a hand on me. You need to work on you. You can't be in a relationship until you fix your self


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Her not wanting to get the paper work so you could marry would really make me question if she was really divorced from her first husband or is she a WAW. Did you just take her word for it? I would require documented proof before any reconciliation occurred.


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Hello everybody!

I wanted to share my experiences after half a year of the accident happening and hear your opinions.

It really seems nothing physical happened between them, after all. After I exposed her to our friends, she repeated to them that she never cheated on me, she had a bad time with herself at the time and she wanted to try to do something crazy, because a short time before everything this happened, I told her that an STI we both had at the beginning of our relationship, was probably caused by a onenightstand I had a few days before meeting her. I thought I had told her, she said I didn't, and for this reason she had to feel a lot of shame in front of my parents for this; they got wind of it, when the hospital send my documents to my parents house. She always had felt guilty, and now she wanted let me pay back for it.

I know I shouldn't believe her anything, but after what I and friends have seen and heard, and after taking into account that I checked up on her mobile and didn't find any deleted messages that could make me think differently, she tells me the truth.

There had been NC with the guy for three months, everything was going fine. One day she told me the other had written her asking if she was fine. She said it was a pity she had to break this friendship with him, and wanted to ask me if she could meet him one more time to clear what had happened that night I found them in the car. They didn't speak again until that moment. She also said I could come and check myself he was really more a buddy than anything else. I told her I didn't want to see him, so I accepted her meeting him in presence of some friends of ours. Now, a couple of month later, she asked me again if it was ok for her going out for a drink with him, always leaving any door open, for me to go with them, in presence with friends or even invite him home.

And here comes a big question to you all: when is it ok for a man say no to such a thing, restricting a freedom everybody has, that is meeting people? If these other people are a real threat, ok, I would say, then it is ok.

But when I have no real reason for it to be, even my gut feeling says it sound ok, why shouldn't I leave her have her male friends, under a controlled situation, with me knowing? My only fear is that the situation can bring the worst out of the peolpe.

I have the impression of doing the wrong thing, whatever choice I make: If I prohibit her, it feels like I'm restrincting her freedom, choices and finally live. But I would feel safer for my relationship.

If I let her have a drink with him, I can see this reflects positively in everything about her. But I'm preoccupied because of all that happened before.

To the women reading: what is your advice?


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I am not a woman but allow me to chime in.

I'm fine with fairly liberal marital boundaries when your spouse has never given you any reason to doubt them. Opposite sex friends, okay - within reason.

But.....when your wife has proven to you that she can't be trusted with looser marital boundaries - that's a different ball game. If you decide to R, more conservative boundaries has to be one of the consequences of getting caught cheating.

Bottom line; you're making a mistake to accept this.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> Hello everybody!
> 
> I wanted to share my experiences after half a year of the accident happening and hear your opinions.
> 
> ...


At the very least go with her the next time she is meeting him. Maybe she is only asking because she knows you will pass. Take her up on the offer and meet this guy. 

You should be able to tell from their body language as to whether she has been honest with you and if he is a threat or not.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dancerinthedark said:


> If I let her have a drink with him, I can see this reflects positively in everything about her. But I'm preoccupied because of all that happened before.
> 
> To the women reading: what is your advice?


What say I?

I say HELL NO!

There are several BILLION people on this planet. She can easily find some OTHER person to be friends with other than the one MAN you think she has feelings for.

That's utterly ridiculous.

And as for what you should do? You are PERFECTLY within your rights to say "I can't control what you do. I can only control what I do. So here is my answer. I do not want this man in my marriage in any shape or form. If you decide you need him in your life, then I will take that as your decision that you want him in your life more than me, because if you see him again, I will divorce you. Your choice. Let me know what you decide."


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

turnera said:


> So here is my answer. I do not want this man in my marriage in any shape or form. If you decide you need him in your life, then I will take that as your decision that you want him in your life more than me, because if you see him again, I will divorce you. Your choice. Let me know what you decide."


Yeah, that's kind of what I meant by not accepting this.:smile2:


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

JMO, but I think if we should rate your decision to accept her reprising contact with this guy on a scale from 1 to 10, where 1 is "not stupid at all" and 10 is "really really really stupid", it would score a "11".

Her "friendship" with this guy has brought a lot of trouble to the marriage. Her waiting to keep it at all costs speaks volumes about her priorities...


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Six months later and he hasn't learned one damn thing.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

dancerinthedark said:


> Hello everybody!
> 
> I wanted to share my experiences after half a year of the accident happening and hear your opinions.
> 
> ...


I am a man, but you're gonna get my opinion on this in any case 


No. In fact it is a dangerous idea. It is on an intellectual par with asking a trained ratting dog to baby sit a pet rat.

No matter what the dog's good intentions might be, the owner of the cute little pet rat would soon be organising a funeral starring a rather tiny coffin.

She is playing mind games with you, or is so challenged with her responses to day-to-day problems of life that she really shouldn't be allowed out without a chaperone.


----------



## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

When is it OK for a man to say no to meeting people? When the person she wants to meet is a boy half her age who she was "kissing" like a middle schooler in the back seat of a car. Pretty sure she lost that freedom as you call it then and there with that particular person. And really? You are asking if it is OK for her to have a male friend under a controlled situation. (Does that mean you are babysitting her?) It probably would be fine; but holy sh!t not someone she was kissing in the backseat of a car.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

So you want a one sided open marriage where your wife can fvck boys young enough to be her child?

Sure. Why not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

It's absurd that you would even consider this. Retrieve your balls from her purse, and tell her selfish, childish ass that it's him or you.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I am a woman and I say you should say no to this request, why? Because she was caught in a compromising position in a car with him before so her right to 'freedom" with him has been made null and void period. No contact, should mean exactly that. You are not establishing boundaries here as you should.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Your marriage and family life is filled with dysfunction, yet you choose this issue to be 'reasonable' about. This is an empty gesture, in my opinion. The important thing is that she is attracted to and wants to fool around with a testosterone-fueled younger man. She is now seeking your permission to do this.

Instead of recognizing the dysfunction of the whole scenario, you are concerned about the appearance of being jealous or controlling. That's like worrying about the grammar and spelling in the hold-up note that you're passing to the bank teller.

So, I'm another woman voting 'no' on this.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

You must understand the "sparked interest" of more after the kissing in the car is still with your W. I would venture a guess your W wants to experience more from the OM. He is not a buddy or friend. He is a conquest for your W.


----------



## CH (May 18, 2010)

bandit.45 said:


> Six months later and he hasn't learned one damn thing.


What he said....Some people just have to learn the hard way.

Bend over and take it over and over before you finally realize..

Hey, is someone ramming something up my behind!


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

dancerinthedark said:


> Hello everybody!
> 
> I wanted to share my experiences after half a year of the accident happening and hear your opinions.
> 
> ...


OP you can be a "nice guy" or a good husband

your choice In this case you can't be both

55


----------



## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

Sounds like a date to me. Will you next let them go steady?

Just sayin',

Seasalt


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There's a way that this idea might work.

Ask her to only date young chaps who have twin sisters for YOU to date.

I mean, she'll be perfectly happy with such a deal. RIGHT???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

dancerinthedark said:


> I caught my fiancee (40y) of 15 years, mother of our 3 wonderful kids (14,10,8y) in a car on the backseat with a 20 y-old boy, who works for the company who put thermal insulation at our house one month ago. They claimed it was just kissing and it appeared to be like that.





dancerinthedark said:


> It really seems nothing physical happened between them, after all. After I exposed her to our friends, she repeated to them that she never cheated on me, she had a bad time with herself at the time and she wanted to try to do something crazy


 On one hand you say that you caught your wife kissing a guy in the back seat of a car, and on the other hand you now say that "nothing physical happened between them". Sorry pal but making out in the back seat of a car means something "physical happened between them". I know that she has you calling it "just kissing" as if it was no big deal, but it is a big deal, and how far would things have gone between them that day or later had you not caught them? It is ridiculous that she wants to ever start seeing this guy again, and you are letting her. When you cheat with someone, and making out in the back seat of a car is cheating, it is no contact for life with no exception, yet she has you giving in to letting her see him again only few months later. BTW, what makes what they did worse was this was not a case of him just leaning over and kissing her, this was a case of them going to the back seat of a car with the stated intent to make out. 

Ask yourself this questions, who is this guy that she needs him back in her life again? He is not some long term friend that she knew for many years. They do not have a history of innocent and platonic friendship that she would be losing if she never saw him again. He is just some young guy that is half her age that she met a month before you caught them making out in the backseat of a car. The core basis of their relationship included cheating right in the first few weeks of them meeting. Sorry but no contact for life is the only sane thing to do here. Also, many couples have boundaries against opposite sex friends ("OSF"), and those that do have boundaries that allow for OSF almost always require that they be a friend of the marriage among other things. This guy is not a friend of the marriage, end of story. Additionally, her past inappropriate behavior dictates that going forward that you have firmer boundaries established such that you will no longer feel the need to post here to ask what we think.


----------



## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> Instead of recognizing the dysfunction of the whole scenario, you are concerned about the appearance of being jealous or controlling. That's like worrying about the grammar and spelling in the hold-up note that you're passing to the bank teller.


 :iagree::iagree::iagree:
Well said. The OP needs to read this a few times until he understands it.


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting that nobody has addressed that he's been physically violent with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's selling, I'm not buying..


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Six months later and he hasn't learned one damn thing.


Of course not..two words, chains and yanked comes to mind. Surprised people aren't screamed "ARE YOU MAD!! Can't you see what's happening!!!"


----------



## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Only a FOOL will keep doing the same thing and expect a different result !!!

What part of NO CONTACT EVER did YOU not understand ???

Plain and simple. Her panties STILL get wet for him. 
Is that plain enough for you?

They was in the BACK SEAT.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*Your wife is not satisfied with you and wants other men to replace you. You can take it from there!*


----------



## dancerinthedark (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks for all the sharp answers. 

Most ideas said in them also passed through my mind, like the absolute NC, or how can I be so stupid to let her go, or she still has the hots for him, ...
But, ( and here I will hear a lot of you saying:"He wont learn a thing out of it") to me there can still be a possibility, that this kind of malicious thinking is not always correct.
Let me explain and give some more details. The night my Gf was caught, she was going to meet other friends (true), they couldnt meet up with her so she called HIM and he accepted meeting her. They were driving towards the house of a common friend of ours, and driving there my Gf made a call to inform our common friend that she and this guy would come by. She told them she was lying in bed quite ill and didn't want to see anybody (true). So my gf told the guy to stop going towards that direction, since they couldn't visit our common friend, and think about where they could go next. There they started chatting and decided to stay there. The problem was that the blowing of the heating of the car (it was winter) was uncomfortable to my gf (she always complained for the same thing with me before, her eyes have a problem with it) so she asked the guy to sit on the back. There she told,him about our problems and said she wanted to do punish me ( for having told her 2-3 weeks earlier the story, that it was probably me who,infected her with a STD the first weeks we met. She was thinking all,these years she infected me) and do that crazy thing to kiss him. he let her, but apparently he didn't really want, bc he had a gf and he was having a terrible cold and his nose was,running.
When she told me all this I laughed at her face thinking that was a classic "I can explain everything"-excuse after being caught. And I told her to stop with this bull****.
But for all the time afterwards, her version of the story seemed consistent to me (checked with friends and they confirmed. Plus messages confirmed thing too).

If you still call me a fool for believing in what I do, fine for me. My gut feeling told me before sth was not right, and that time my feeling was correct. This time my gut feeling says I should trust her and leave her her space. Also bc we are doing pretty well again, sex is great, we get on very well, trust is growing more and more, she is happy all,is,fine now.
Nonetheless, I was afraid to pursue what my gut feeling said and put her in front of the him-or-me choice. She accepted not to see him again. I would have liked her to take this decision without me imposing it onto her.

Now, a detail comes into my mind, it doesn't really follow the lines above, ... Anyway, it is actually the reason why I posted again after 6 months. She asked me to see the guy, after having had a wonderful night together and just after finishing making love. She said:"can we talk". And I knew something was coming. And boom, she asked me to meet him. What made me suspicious was the timing. What do you think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think there is NO REASON for her to be friends with him WHILE MARRIED TO YOU.

Who the hell cares how that night went? She had her tongue in his mouth (and probably then gave YOU the cold he had).

No man who has made out with your wife belongs in your marriage in any shape or form.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OP,

All the good advice in the world (and you have received plenty of that from the posters here) cannot save you from yourself if you are determined to ignore it.

Best of luck...and I certainly hope you are not back posting in another 6 months about how you should have listened to the other posters and are now kicking yourself for allowing the A to flare back to life.


----------



## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Dude, just do what you want, and leave us alone.
People come here that really want help.
So if you are looking for us to say go be a ****, you in the wrong place.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

If she cared for the marriage at all or your feelings, why would she put herself in this position again?

AND why on earth would you let her? Nip that in the bud right now, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries...........sigh


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Boundaries = respect


----------



## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

So your wife wasn't making out in the back seat, huh? It just looked like that. She told you this story we could call "A series of unfortunate events"... Oops, sorry, that title's been used! 

Really, are you genuine? Do you believe anything people tell you? Can I sell you something?

Your wife bangs you real good, after a nice dinner and a good night out... She does her best to put you in a really really good mood, and very open to anything she asks, and brings up she would like to start seeing this guy, on her own, of course.
Guess what does it mean?

P.S.: Is it wife or gf?


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

italianjob said:


> She told you this story we could call "A series of unfortunate events"... Oops, sorry, that title's been used!


lmao....sorry, but this reminded me of that line from _The Big Lebowski_ where Walter says:

"What we have here is a series of victimless crimes..."


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

italianjob said:


> Your wife bangs you real good, after a nice dinner and a good night out... She does her best to put you in a really really good mood, and very open to anything she asks, and brings up she would like to start seeing this guy, on her own, of course.


Exactly what I was thinking. And don't think women don't grow up knowing how to do that. Just like men pass around tips on how to score, women pass around tips on how to get what they want, how to soften a man up for it.


----------



## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

dancerinthedark said:


> Thanks for all the sharp answers.
> 
> Most ideas said in them also passed through my mind, like the absolute NC, or how can I be so stupid to let her go, or she still has the hots for him, ...
> But, ( and here I will hear a lot of you saying:"He wont learn a thing out of it") to me there can still be a possibility, that this kind of malicious thinking is not always correct.
> ...


Dear dancerinthedark,

I think you are right. Just because:



dozens of people here on TAM/CWI, who have first-hand experience with this sort of thing, think your fiancée wants to cheat on you (again),
she told you a ridiculously unbelievable story about what happened the last time she was with the OM, and
you yourself were initially suspicious of her motives,

that doesn't mean you can't trust her.

She is probably first cheater in history who now only wants to be friends with the OM -- right? So what if the odds against her being truthful with you are a million to one, anything can happen -- right? Let her do whatever she wants because you and she just had great sex, so that proves that everything is hunky-dory in your relationship -- right?

It's so refreshing to read about someone like you, who just doesn't care with the experts think and refuses to believe his own eyes and ears. With that kind of attitude, I'm sure you will have a long and happy relationship with your fiancée (I know she will certainly be happy).

Please check back in in another six months and let us know how great things are going between you and her. I can't wait to hear the good news.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

dancerinthedark said:


> She asked me to see the guy, after having had a wonderful night together and just after finishing making love. She said:"can we talk". And I knew something was coming. And boom, she asked me to meet him. What made me suspicious was the timing. *What do you think?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think - two things; 

1- If I was a remorseful WW and just had a wonderful, sexual night with my BH - about the last thing on earth I would consider doing, is trying to talk my BH into letting me meet with the OM. Your invitation is just a manipulative ruse and she has clearly demonstrated her lack of remorse. 

2- For you to even "consider" allowing her to cross that boundary; speaks volumes about your place in the relationship, and your fear of losing her. Better to lose her for not agreeing to your boundaries than to lose her to the OM; by giving her a clear path to resume what she started.


----------



## Augusto (Aug 14, 2013)

Man...grow a set!!! You realize you can get the same thing with another woman who is not in the car shining the leather.


----------



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Hey Dancer, I'm just curious, what did you end up deciding to do/say?


----------

