# Introduction



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I've been browsing through here for the last couple days, figured I'd do an introduction and see if I get words of wisdom in exchange. 

I'm a 43 year old guy, been married for 18 years, 2 kids (10 and 12). Wife is 39.

The reason I've been browsing and wandering the Internet is cause things have been in a downward decline/spiral for the last few years. A lot of what other couples go through, I imagine. A growing separation between what we both enjoy doing, declining sex life, etc... Right now, it feels like we're more room-mates than even friends, much less lovers. The only thing we have in common is the kids and our past. 

One thing that's struck me in this forum was the number of threads/posts about guys getting rejected for sex so often that they've given up making a move anymore. Boy, did that hit home... So many nights of "Sorry, honey, how about tomorrow...", but tomorrow never seems to come. I finally gave up as well, and let it go to her schedule. Since then, the sex life has been in a continuous decline, cratering at about once per month.

Eventually (and not just for the lack of sex, but just the relationship for a whole), I made an appointment to talk to a therapist who specializes in relationship counselling. Had my first session at the beginning of the month. I wanted to go on my own just to get some of my thoughts/feelings out in the open to think about... Kind of talk it out, see if it still made sense when the words were spoken rather than just in my head. One of the things that really struck me was that he kept prodding to find out how I was feeling when I was talking about different options, like separating. And I honestly just felt somewhere between numb and relief. His response was that that I've gone through a grieving process already for my marriage, which made sense to me. I've been going through that process for the last 4 months, it seems.

The other thing that surprised me was that I came out of the session feeling more upbeat and positive than I have in a long time. It feels like I'm finally making some progress to changing things, instead of living on a downward spiral. 

The end result of my session was that my therapist and I agreed that the best next step was to sit down with my wife, and have "the talk". My goal for the end of that talk was to discuss "next steps", which would likely involve joint counselling. Not something I was looking forward to at all, but I knew that was coming sooner rather than later, of course. I was thinking of holding off till after Christmas, but...

So I came home, and stewed about it for a week or so... I had another session booked with my therapist this Thursday, and I wanted to give her some time to think about what she would want to talk about, but not too long to worry excessively. In the end though, the straw that broke the camel's back was that she decided she wanted to kindle some romantic spark, and I had no interest. After turning her down two nights in a row, I figured that it was about time to get things out in the open.

The talk went about as expected... Lots of tears on her part, not a happy time at all. But again, I was surprised by some things. We had a talk like this about 5 years into our marriage (and actually split for a few days before I came back), and then a few years ago, we had a talk about her drinking. With both of those, there was lots of tears and emotions on both sides. With this one, I was back to being numb. I might as well have been talking about a work problem.

Well, I guess that pretty much brings me to today... We've had a couple of other talks since then, and I think I've made a few mistakes, but nothing too critical. I was trying to avoid telling her what I thought our problems where (or what my issues were) because I knew she would focus on fixing those, rather than trying to address her own feelings. Sure enough, that's come up as a problem. But I'll let the therapist weed through that.

I guess my problem right now though is that I don't know if I want to try to work things out. I just see us as having split too far apart to get back on the same page, and I've seen too many instances of her trying to change and regressing right back to the "bad" behaviour within a month or 6 weeks (re: drinking issue already mentioned and others). She always WANTS to change, but can't stick with any of them. But I've kept my mouth shut about where I think the relationship is heading, and figure that might be best coming out during counselling.

I do know that I've got my own issues to work through... Conflict resolution is a big one, communication in general... So I'm definitely not perfect! I just don't see many ways that this current situation can work out with the two people involved.

Anyway, there's my story in a nutshell... Sometimes, we just have to get things off our chests, I guess. 

PB


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So? 64,000 dollar question ... What do you want? 

Take all of the peripheral bullsh!t out of the equation. What is it that you want to have happen for your life?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You're right, that is the big question. The thing that I want most right now is to figure out who I really am, and what makes me happy. And the only way I think that's going to happen is with a separation at a minimum (and a permanent one in the future). In my location (Canada), that's the way it has to go anyway. It would be an easy decision (and be done by now) if it wasn't for the kids.

I believe that our counselling sessions will get some things out in the air that have been hidden for awhile, and we'll have to make a decision fairly soon about where our futures are going. I'm still at least a bit open to listen to talk of reconciling, but I don't believe it will work. But if things go the way I expect, I also want to have some sessions to develop some plans to help the kids through this. I know that nobody's going to get through this painlessly, but I still want to minimize that pain.

PB


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## Christine11 (Sep 13, 2010)

PBear, just from you thread it sounds to me like you already checked out of your marriage. So the question is: Are you mentally done with your marriage or are you willing to try to save it?

If you are mentally done, don't string her along with useless counselling for the two of you, giving her hope when there really is none. But if you are willing to try to save your marriage you 2 need to openly talk about what your needs are, what the other person has to do to meet those needs (maybe through counselling since that way you have a neutral third party there). 

In case you haven't read the 5 Love Languages, do it. It tells you about what your love language is. That's how I found out what my and my husbands love language is and it was an eye opener. You will then be able to meet your spouses needs by responding to what is important to her (let's say she likes words of affirmation - tell her often she does a good job at whatever etc.; you like acts of service - she should do things like chores etc. therefore meeting your need) This is just an example of course.

Only you know what's in your heart. Think carefully before throwing it all away. What does your gut tell you? I know from personal experience it is possible to change and keep the change even when you never were like that.


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

I am in your situation....actually posted some threads.
Doesn't the guilt just kill you? You feel bad for your kids, you feel bad b/c you want to separate, you feel bad you don't have feelings anymore....
But what about your happiness? I'm in therapy also, and I will say this....it sounds like we have the same exact therapist! 

Big Picture = Be happy
Whatever it takes! You're children will be happy if you are.

I'm in the process of leaving....getting thru the holidays, I just hope it doesn't kill me. Once I've made a plan, I stopped obsessing over it and felt a hugh weight taken off my shoulders.

Good luck to you....
I think we both deserve it


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I have to agree with Christine11. 

My wife and my initial goal for marriage counseling was to see IF we wanted to save our marriage. What our marriage counselor told us was that if we weren't there to save the marriage, counseling wasn't going to work. 

Counseling is the last chance for both of you to get things out on the table for discussion. You have to be prepared to lay bare all the issues you have with your wife as well as address your faults. These things are rarely one-sided.

Good luck.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Christine, when you mention I've checked out of the marriage, I think you hit it bang on. When talking to my therapist, the analogy I used was that it was like when I decided to leave a job. You make your decision to leave (even if you haven't given your notice yet), but you still try to act professionally and do the best job you can until the last day. Even if your heart isn't in it anymore.

I don't feel that the sessions are useless, though. I've had months (or more) to get to where I'm at mentally/emotionally. To grieve for our relationship. She hasn't, and still needs to get there. And if handled right, it can reduce the animosity and anger that can otherwise flare up. Keep in mind that at least part of this is comments/advice from the therapist, who obviously has an interest in keeping the sessions going. 

In my heart, I'm ready to move on. I know that, and I'm pretty honest with myself about that. The question is really how to do that with causing the least amount of pain to everyone else involved. Otherwise, the "big talk" would have been something like "It's been swell, but here's my new address." 

I hear what you're saying about people can change and make it change, but there's just been too many promises of change that haven't stuck. The drinking one is a big one, and if that wasn't the wake-up call that was needed, then I don't know what would be. Well, maybe this current conversation, but now it feels like it's too late.

Part of the problem is that I don't want her to change to make ME happy... I want her to change to make HER happy. I mentioned that one of the reasons I didn't want to talk about my issues was because she would simply focus on those, and how we can just fix them and life will be good again. I backed off on my promise to myself to not mention any of my issues, so of course that's what some of the subsequent discussions have been about...

What she won't accept is that by doing that, it still won't fix what's making HER unhappy, and to me, that's the big killer in the relationship now. I could deal with this much easier if I thought she was putting in effort to address the things that she says she needs to do, but she won't. If she was happier with herself, I truly believe that our sex life would come back, the drinking would be much easier to control, etc... 

Maybe in the end, this will be her wakeup call, and she'll start making the changes that she needs to make. And in the end, the kids end up with two emotionally healthy parents. They just might be two separated healthy parents. I may be rationalizing to myself, but I think that that's more important than two unhappy/unhealthy parents that stuck together. 

C


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

JustAGirl said:


> I am in your situation....actually posted some threads.
> Doesn't the guilt just kill you? You feel bad for your kids, you feel bad b/c you want to separate, you feel bad you don't have feelings anymore....
> But what about your happiness? I'm in therapy also, and I will say this....it sounds like we have the same exact therapist!
> 
> ...


Thanks for that, JustAGirl! 

Yes, it seems like we're in a similar situation. Sorry to hear that, though. Right now, I feel guilt almost exclusively for what I can imagine this will do to the kids, cause they have no control over any of this. I'm concerned this will come as a big shock to them, since as I said, we don't really fight at all. 

Good luck to you, too. I'm sure you CAN make it though the holidays! Remember that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and all those wonderful sayings. 

C


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> I have to agree with Christine11.
> 
> My wife and my initial goal for marriage counseling was to see IF we wanted to save our marriage. What our marriage counselor told us was that if we weren't there to save the marriage, counseling wasn't going to work.
> 
> ...


Chris,

I realize that this is NOT a one-sided group of issues. Regardless of how things turn out, I know that I've got things that I need to deal with and work on for myself. Otherwise any future relationships are doomed to repeat this one.

Thanks!

C


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Here is what I find to be the 'tragic' portion of getting the outcome you want, in terms of a release from the relationship and baggage that has accrued.

Over does not equal Better.

I'm not saying that leaving is the wrong decision, but I do think it's important to come to terms with the entire truth of the matter. We want better. We believe we deserve better. Both statements may be accurate. It's easy to feed the desire to put a stake in the heart of your marriage. 
- Inattentive spouse
- Lack of sex, affection, love, respect, freedom, individuality
- an utter breakdown of all of the reasons you fell in love with and married this person in the first place.

Here is the thing that I truly believe is important for people to understand - and many don't. Leaving may absolutely be the better choice - but it isn't the easier choice. Particularly if you think that is the case.
You will in no uncertain terms be faced with as much personal work and strife as you would be faced with had you chosen to try and work things out. Ditching isn't easier.

You WILL hurt.
She WILL hurt.
Your kids absolutely WILL hurt. My children are young, and even after being out of the house for two years, despite many conversations; they still want daddy to come home.

My life is not 'better' for having left my marriage. The issues were many and deep. At the end, infidelity got thrown into the mix as well. It was utterly broken. Do I regret my choice? No. But if I'm being honest, without a doubt everyone in our family would have been better served had we been able to focus on recovery and reconciliation instead of ways to distance ourselves from one another - while each of us believed that happiness was just on the other side of ending our broken marriage.

We have both grown tremendously. But the damage done, particularly financially for each of us, and to the prospect of our children's future is doubtless, unrecoverable. Everything has a price, and trust me, the price for freedom and self-discovery away from your long term relationship is higher than you anticipate.

I was not happy in my marriage. Not even close. But after seeing the fallout, much later down the line? I can tell you unequivocally, if given the chance again, I would try much harder to save it for reasons that now are every bit as appealing as were the reasons for my initially wanting to get out of it.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not miserable. I'm not depressed. But I am most certainly not where I planned to be at age 45.


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## Christine11 (Sep 13, 2010)

PBear, i hear you, I really do, however, did you ever ask her why she started drinking and if yes, how you could help her to get over that? I believe she was trying to send some kind of message to you that she was feeling alone and disconnected from you, this was her outcry for you to help her, to get close again.

I am not saying it was the right way to go about it but people do weird things when they are desperate. Are you so fed up with your relationship that you believe it can't be fixed? If you believe counseling helps, and if only to 'make a clean break,' go for it. Just make it clear to her that it's not for reconciliation purposes.

I can relate to your story since I had problems for many years now but somehow we always seem to stick it out even though I sometimes ask myself 'when is enough enough?' Maybe Love has something to do with it. So make sure you really are out of love and not just mad and tired of all the bs.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Christine, I haven't asked her specifically about the drinking. She was diagnosed with a chronic disease in 2004 (celiac disease) which is controllable through diet changes, and things seem to have spiralled from there. I've talked to her about getting counseling on her own, but that has been rejected every time it's come up. Along with that, there's self esteem (where the sex life issues come from, most likely?) and anxiety issues. I think could deal with these things IF she was willing to try to help herself, but that's not the case. I don't have the tools to deal with what she's going through... I can listen, but at some point I just find myself beyond frustrated to listen to the complaints and "woe is me" without her being willing to take some actual action on the issues.

Again though... I realize that there's things I can/should have done differently, and I expect those to come out in our counseling sessions. Things from her perspective. Whether they're therapy sessions or reconciliation sessions, I see them as part of my learning and healing going forward.

Deejo, thanks for your message. It's definitely something to think about, and I've read it a couple times already.

C


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## Christine11 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey PBear, well, if a lot of the problems started when she was diagnosed, she most likely hasn't really been able to cope with the fact that she has this disease. I agree with you that she needs to talk to somebody about this issue and that it is hard when you know that she doesn't want to (for whatever reason). Maybe that could be part of the counseling, kind of making her see your side, that you are not the medical professional who has the answers to dealing with her disease but that you want to help her (and do whatever you can) through this no matter what it takes (if you really want to do that of course).

I think you are right about the sex issues. I don't know much about this disease but I think it is possible that somehow this has made her feel un-sexy or given her body issues. Also, the problems between you two have probably intensified that feeling.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Christine11, celiac disease is an autoimmune disease that causes your body to react when gluten (wheat and wheat flour products). If you don't eat it, there's no issues. Eat it, and and you spend time in the washroom, and risk long term issues if you continue to ignore what you're doing (it can affect how your body absorbs nutrition from food). Likely more information than you needed, but there you go. It's not uncommon (3% of the population, I think). A lot of people just think of it as a wheat/flour allergy, and it can be dealt with the same way as any other allergy.

As far as the physical intimacy issues go, I don't think it has anything to do with her disease, but more to do with body image issues. She's put on weight over the years like many of us have, and isn't happy with herself because of it. I was in the same position, to be honest. But I had a physical health scare about this time two years ago, and it was enough to shock me into making fairly extensive lifestyle changes. I dropped 55 pounds and run half marathons for fun. So now of course she's dealing with added frustration/pressure/whatever because of my changes, but I'm not going to go back to the way I was to make her happy(ier).

That's one of the things that's frustrated me with her complaints about wanting to change herself, but not being willing to do anything about it. 2 years ago, I was in a similar situation as her (overweight, drinking too much, etc), and I made the decision to change that and follow through. She's made the decision to keep complaining without making changes, much less sticking with anything. I've tried being supportive, giving her the tools that worked for me, as they're all I know. Calorie counting tools, portion control, exercise, etc. We've had gym memberships, we bought exercise equipment for our basement (that she picked out), I've made it clear that she just has to tell me when she wants to go exercise and I'll adjust my schedule to work with that. I no longer buy junk food and leave it around the house. But she still has to be the one to control what she puts in her mouth, and to get off the couch in the evenings rather than watching TV and drinking a bottle of wine. If she could pop a magical pill to change things, we'd be fine. Unfortunately, nobody's invented that pill yet. 

I will also confess that I don't find her as physically attractive at her current weight as she used to be. I try not to show that and would never say anything, but can I say with 100% certainty that she hasn't picked up on that? Nope, I can't. But I also can't magically change how I feel, either.

Do I want to help her through it, no matter what it takes? Honestly right now, I don't know how much more I have to give. All I know is that it's dragging me down to her level of unhappiness. This summer and fall, I think I was flirting with borderline depression, and this situation is affecting my work, my relationship with the kids, and everything else. It's gotten better in some ways now that things are coming out in the open, but there's still a long ways to go before I think I'm healthy.

Anyway, that's all just venting and babbling. Probably a fair amount of rationalizing in there too, for good measure. 

C


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## Christine11 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey PBear, thanks for the info on celiac disease. Reading your thread about how she complains and says she wants to change but doesn't take any action even though you are trying to help her sounds like she might have more than just celiac disease. I am no medical professional but could she be suffering from depression? It sounds to me like she wants or needs you to be the one who pushes her to do things. Just telling her you will be there if she wants to work out doesn't seem to be enough to get her going.

I know, you can only do so much, she needs to start the change herself, you can't do it for her. I don't know how much you guys have talked about that 'complaining, wanting to change but doesn't do it' issue. Does she know that you are on your last leg in this relationship? Is she aware that her constant complaining, saying she wants to change but never follows through is a deal breaker for you?

I guess I can understand that she feels uncomfortable in her own body because she gained weight. I can't speak from experience here since I never had any big issues with weight but maybe you are right and she can sense that you don't find her as attractive as before (women are weird that way, they can sense that kind of stuff even if you think you hid it well).

How to get her to start changing? Honestly, I believe she really has to want to do it herself. If she doesn't want it it will never happen. Just saying you want to change doesn't really mean anything until you take the first step. If she loves you she will make a change when confronted with the fact that this would be the last straw. I am sorry that I don't have a magic solution for you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Here is what I find to be the 'tragic' portion of getting the outcome you want, in terms of a release from the relationship and baggage that has accrued.
> 
> Over does not equal Better.
> 
> ...


PBear,

You would be wise to read this every morning until it makes sense.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I am at a loss here. Both Deejo and Conrad (by echoing Deejo's comment) seem to wish that giving it another shot or trying harder in the first place is best. Am I wrong? This post seems to go against what they have been saying. What am I missing here? 
Or might I ask a different question....what if the relationship changed for the positive, would reconciliation be wished for?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Quite simply stated: You exit one mess and step into another. Either way, you are required to tidy up your mess. Ultimately, it isn't the mess that matters, it's the tidying up bit that does.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo is on it.

We take OURSELVES into the next relationship.

Until that is addressed, we have no clue what sort of relationship we actually want - or what it takes (from us) to sustain a relationship.

And, if we work on ourselves, we may realize that the relationship we're in is "as good as it gets".

It really sucks to learn things when it's too late.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Christine,

Yes, I think there likely is some depression in there as well. I've suggested talking to both her doctor and finding a therapist. I don't have the tools to "fix" this, beyond listening, and that's not enough. 

I think now she does know that I'm on my last leg with regards to our relationship; I tried to be clear in our "big talk"... Not the complaining/not changing in specific, but just with our relationship in a more general sense. As I mentioned before, I've been trying to avoid mentioning any specifics, because she has shown that she'll simply focus on those issues, and not look at dealing with her own issues. I feel pretty strongly that we both need to work on our own issues and be healthy/happy as individuals first before we can have any kind of healthy relationship. 

Conrad and Deejo, I appreciate the comments. I do understand what's being said. This could obviously be one of those cases that you can't truly understand it until you go through it. I also realize that I need to address my own issues before any relationship will work. Thank you for your thoughts.

Brennan, right now I'd have to say that no, reconciliation would not be wished for. I haven't ruled that out entirely, depending on the results of the counseling sessions. I plan on keeping my mind as open as possible on that option; I figure I owe the other people involved that much at least. I don't plan on dragging out that decision too long, though. I guess there's also the possibility of reconciling during the separation process as well... We've got a mandatory 1 year separation period befor a divorce can be finalized unless there's been abuse or adultery. But again, if it gets to that point, I would not be expecting that, and would be honest about my feelings on that.

C


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I'll bet we thought no one could understand ours at one time either.

Carry on.


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## Anonny123 (Aug 11, 2010)

PBear said:


> *checked out of the marriage*, like when I decided to leave a job. You make your decision to leave (even if you haven't given your notice yet), but you still try to act professionally and do the best job you can until the last day. *Even if your heart isn't in it anymore.*
> 
> *In my heart, I'm ready to move on. *
> 
> ...


PBear - I am with you on so many things you say here. Everything I have put in bold is what I am currently dealing with at the moment. I have checked out and need to move on. The love isn't tehre anymore and the trust we had is completely broken. I am now dealing with confronting him about these feelings I've been having. I confronted him with all my suspicious already and he denied everything. How did you deal with it? Did you inform family first?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Thanks Conrad. I know that it would be great to give advice and have people avoid the same mistakes we've already made, but sometimes we have to learn on our own. 

Anonny, what do you mean you confronted him with your suspicions? What were you suspicious of? An affair? I have no real concerns about that... Although after our "big talk", she texted me one day and said that she wanted to talk about something that had been troubling her for a long time, and that she should have talked to me about when it happened. Ended up that one of her friends (who I didn't really like) had made a pass at her one evening. I was like "WTF? Why is this causing you any stress, if he made the pass and you didn't reciprocate?", but of course, I didn't say anything like that.

As far as who I've talked to, I talked to some friends of mine (all female, for whatever reason), my therapist, and my sister. And only my sister because she's a lawyer, and I figured I should get some names from her in the local area. Plus she went through an amicable common-law break up a few years ago, so she has some idea of what I'm going though. She didn't have any kids to worry about, though.

I guess I figure that this should be kept between the two of us as much as possible for now. If we do end up working through things, there's no sense having other people know about it. And if we don't work through it, then it will become obvious fairly quick. The friends I've talked to (two of them) are "my" friends, ones I worked with in the past, and never spend time with her. I thought about talking to my cousin (probably my closest guy friend), but I figure that would just put him in an awkward spot, since we hang out regularly as families, and I'd want him to keep it a secret from his wife. Just messy.

I'm sorry you have things in common with me.  And my situation isn't nearly as bad as many others, but I still wouldn't wish it on anyone just so I'd have company.

C


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Pbear, why did you post in the Men’s Clubhouse and not in “Considering Divorce or Separation” or “General Relationship Discussion”?

When you have a minute, I’d really like to know.

Thanks

Bob


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Bob,

Well, cause most of the reading I've done so far had been in this forum, and I'm a guy.  

In hindsight, the "Considering Divorce or Separation" would be more appropriate. But now I don't know if I want to go repeating my story in there, so I'll likely wait till I have a new thread to start, and then I'll post there.

C


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

PBear said:


> Bob,
> 
> Well, cause most of the reading I've done so far had been in this forum, and I'm a guy.
> 
> ...


Ok was just wondering. I think at times men get the need to talk with men.

Glad you found your way here.

Bob


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