# Manipulative Behavior



## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm trying to decide what to do about my wife's behavior? I've struggled for years with our relationship, always seeming to be in the doghouse or in trouble with her, and no matter what never seeming to meet the ever moving mark. 

Finally, a friend suggested I read up on passive-aggressive personality disorder and manipulation and control issues. What an eye opener, it's my whole marriage, my wife to a tee, everything she does is described and identified. Amazing.

I thought this would empower me, actually for a couple of weeks I was walking on air, thinking I could figure out how to deal with it, help her understand what was going on. So I bought several good books on the subjects, read them carefully and sat down to try to have a mature discussion about what seemed obvious to me.

Huge mistake, she practically exploded, yelled, cried accused, you name it, all the same stuff, only here I am instead of getting emotional I'm just ticking off the PA behaviors....and pointing them out. Bottom line, she denies everything, it's all in my imagination and we go through about 4 weeks of "punishment", ie cold shoulder, no-sex, mean comments. etc etc.

So that set me back on my heels, but I thought "well this may take some time, keep your frame of reference and controls centered"....No going, she's adamant she doesn't have a problem.

This last two weeks she started out by punishing me with no-sex/cold shoulder for 7 days because I parked in her space in front of the house, then when she found out about a wine-tasting at some friends out of state, she gives me a great nite of sex, then the next day asks me if we can go...

I'm totally at a loss, denial denial denial, how can I get past this? Will marriage counseling really help, all I can see is her selling all this crap in some way that makes me out to be a monster??? Really need some advice.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

And another thing...she's really this awesome woman. She home-schools our kids, is a big part of our church, people trust her and rely on her for advice and support. But she's a totally different person with me, it's like I hear her talking to a friend on the phone and I'm so jealous, because she's alive with them. She'll hang up and turn to me and she's emotionally dead, eyeing me like judge, jury, and executioner...what is this?


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

This is just sh*t testing.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Drover, can you tell me what "sh*t testing" is? Cause variations on this theme make up most of 18 years of marriage for me, and I'm clearly not getting it?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok, so my wife of 18 years is giving me immature tests of manhood? Is that all this BS is? 

Here's another behavior, she likes to embarrass me in public. She'll bring up something from my childhood or family that is painfully embarrassing at the most inappropriate moments, and then laugh it of and say she's just joking. The other nite we're having a nice meal and watching the super bowl with two of her female friends and she starts talkin about my first marriage and what a disaster it was. Painfully embarrassing, wanted to punch her in the face, but tried to laugh it off and change the subject. WTF is that? Sh*t Testing???


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"....she gives me a great nite of sex..."

Here is part of your problem. As long as you see sex as something your wife "gives you", you will continue to accept crap behavior from her.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Ok, so my wife of 18 years is giving me immature tests of manhood? Is that all this BS is?
> 
> Here's another behavior, she likes to embarrass me in public. She'll bring up something from my childhood or family that is painfully embarrassing at the most inappropriate moments, and then laugh it of and say she's just joking. The other nite we're having a nice meal and watching the super bowl with two of her female friends and she starts talkin about my first marriage and what a disaster it was. Painfully embarrassing, wanted to punch her in the face, but tried to laugh it off and change the subject. WTF is that? Sh*t Testing???


It's not immature. In a way it's a sign she cares, even loves you. If you never meet the test, why shouldn't she continue it? It's entirely possible she doesn't even realize that's what she's doing. She just knows she's not happy with you, not happy with the fact you let her run all over you, not happy with you letting her to make the decisions. She's pushing you to do something about it...maybe consciously, maybe subconsciously.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Here's another behavior, she likes to embarrass me in public. She'll bring up something from my childhood or family that is painfully embarrassing at the most inappropriate moments, and then laugh it of and say she's just joking. The other nite we're having a nice meal and watching the super bowl with two of her female friends and she starts talkin about my first marriage and what a disaster it was. Painfully embarrassing, wanted to punch her in the face, but tried to laugh it off and change the subject. WTF is that? Sh*t Testing???


Why laugh it off when she's publicly being demeaning? You don't argue. Never argue. You tell her to knock it off. If that doesn't work, you walk away and leave her there to find her own way home.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Okay, wow, I thought this thread was going to be a wife talking about her husband and I found out it was the opposite. And your problem sounds alot like what I struggle with day to day with my husband.

Before I start I will let you know that I, too, homeschool my son and am relatively active with my church and friends. There are days when I feel quite exuberant and then when my husband comes home I just feel something switch off. Sound familiar?

What I am learning over 12 years of marriage is that most people use passive aggressive tendencies to get what they want. Some are far worse than others. My husband often does the "just joking" thing. (By the way I deal with this by 1. understanding that he is not trying to deliberately hurt my feelings and then 2. telling him that I know he's joking but it hurts my feelings and if he continues to say things I will then assume that he is trying to hurt my feelings and I will react accordingly. It's something he struggles with but it works in the interim) It wears you down over time. The flat out manipulation is also tiring. I also know that I use passive aggressive tendencies on him. Maybe not as frequently or as snidely but I do use them. So cast no stones at a glass house if you know what I mean. I feel like I am a combination of you and wife in terms of life experiences so I will try to be as unbiased as possible.

First you are trying to fix her (most men do). Don't do that. As you noticed it blew right up in your face. When you read those books on PA (I've read them all) just go into it with the knowledge that those books aren't meant for them. They are meant for you. There's some really great advice in them though so don't throw them away

Secondly it's interesting that you should say that she gave you really great sex to get you to agree to go to a wine tasting. On the surface that sounds like flat out manipulation, and I believe your wife is capable of such, but I wonder a few things. First, had you discussed it ahead of time and you told her you didn't want to go? Or were there more important plans? Or did she just assume that you would say no and headed you off at the pass? If that's the case why would she think that? Some people are amazingly selfish and manipulative to get what they want. But this particular story doesn't _quite _ring that way.

I know I haven't offered you real advice yet. I just feel like the story is a little too incomplete just now. I do most definately feel for you, though!


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Hi and I'm so sorry you're having a difficult time in your relationship 

May I ask what are the exact behaviors labeled as PA? You mentioned cold shoulder and withdrawing sex as punishment... did she SAY she was doing that as punishment? Or did she just not talk to you and not want to have sex with you because she was upset?

And I have to say, a lot of women naturally employ SOME passive -agressive techniques to communicate their needs, but that doesn't mean they're using it abusively and with unusual intensity.

It may help to explore these PA actions one by one to see if she truly does have a problem, then go from there.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> Okay, wow, I thought this thread was going to be a wife talking about her husband and I found out it was the opposite. And your problem sounds alot like what I struggle with day to day with my husband.
> 
> Before I start I will let you know that I, too, homeschool my son and am relatively active with my church and friends. There are days when I feel quite exuberant and then when my husband comes home I just feel something switch off. Sound familiar?
> 
> ...


I appreciate your perspective, yes it does wear you down, quite often I lay in bed while she's sleeping trying to sort through the day's list of interactions to understand what she wants, how she feels. AT any rate, there is more to this and it's hard to capture all the little twists and pushes and nudges, it's hard to notice them sometimes.

The wine tasting...well we hadn't discussed it, I didn't even know about the invite, but on 04 Feb she comes to bed, I'm reading, usually she reads a bit, says good nite and turns away and goes to sleep. We NEVER have sex before bed, she says it gives her insomnia, so when she practically attacks me I'm just sitting there wondering WTH is this? Even the next day, I asked her "what was that all about" it was that odd, seriously it was odd behavior. Mind you I was happy to participate. Then the next evening she asks me about the wine tasting. I found out after that that she received the invite on 02 Feb.

Now this is a pattern I've noticed before, when she wants something big, like an expensive vacation, or for me to do something she knows I won't like. We have a great date nite or great sex and next thing you know I'm agreeing to shell out $$$ for something extravagant. It's not like I'm selfish, I'm the earner, but she works her ass off with the kids and home, we have joint accounts there's nothing that I earn that she doesn't have every access to. Anyway, like I said, I have had my suspicions about this pattern in the past, and this one was like a smack in the forehead. Especially after reading all the PA stuff. 

Now this particular wine tasting. We had been in a bible study between 8-11 years ago for a three year period. During this time we were very close to five other families, and my DW developed a friendship with one of the other husbands. I was never suspicious of anything and was very close with him as well, but after we moved away, and while I was deployed to the middle east this husband visited my wife and kids several times. 

The first time time I was glad he was checking up on them, but he never emailed me or anything to let me know how the visit went. Then he visited again, still nothing no letter no email. At any rate my DW denied anything, and I told her he was not to visit again, as far as I know she complied, I didn't accuse her of anything just that it was odd behavior. But after this I was persona non-grata with this man. After I returned we attended a small reunion with the Bible Study and he was clearly uncomfortable around me. She knows I am very sensitive about it. At any rate he will be at the wine tasting, and it is hosted by one of the other families from the bible study. She has recently friended him on FB and begun playing "Words with Friends" with him.

I've been putting her off so far.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Well, Woody Allen once said the main difference between sex for money and sex for free is that sex for free costs a lot more. 

I think she's up to no good, and that if you want your relationship to change, you'll need to change how you do things, starting with some effective detachment like the 180.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "....she gives me a great nite of sex..."
> 
> Here is part of your problem. As long as you see sex as something your wife "gives you", you will continue to accept crap behavior from her.


You're absolutely right, I don't even understand how I got to think like that. This isn't me at all, it doesn't even resemble how I see myself, but here I am typing that and thinking like that. 

I have been thinking back, you know our first 6-7 years of marriage I just ignored this stuff, I was really happy, had lots of friends was popular in my job and with our friends. Lately, it's like I'm completely isolated, I've let her neuter me physically and emotionally. I'm so damned exhausted by it all.

About 10 years ago I became very concerned about our marriage, she was very unhappy, had been since we were married and although I never understood it, I decided I had to do everything I could to "save" our marriage. And I've been at it ever since, slowly giving up everything I was interested in one at a time to try to make her happy and our marriage "work". I don't even know what I'm doing anymore or why.

I really miss that happy, fun guy I used to be, I used to love life so much. In some ways I still do, I love my kids and really I love my wife or at least the woman I thought I married. I don't know if she still exists or ever existed anymore.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> You're absolutely right, I don't even understand how I got to think like that. This isn't me at all, it doesn't even resemble how I see myself, but here I am typing that and thinking like that.
> 
> I have been thinking back, you know our first 6-7 years of marriage I just ignored this stuff, I was really happy, had lots of friends was popular in my job and with our friends. Lately, it's like I'm completely isolated, I've let her neuter me physically and emotionally. I'm so damned exhausted by it all.
> 
> ...


That's what the 180 will let you do, too... find that guy that she fell for in the first place and who you liked better too.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

ComicBookLady said:


> Hi and I'm so sorry you're having a difficult time in your relationship
> 
> May I ask what are the exact behaviors labeled as PA? You mentioned cold shoulder and withdrawing sex as punishment... did she SAY she was doing that as punishment? Or did she just not talk to you and not want to have sex with you because she was upset?
> 
> ...


Well the cold shoulder/no-sex (CS/NS) has been going on for 17 of our 18 years, sometime as long as 6 months. But it's always tied to something I'm doing or have done.

It is always pretty clearly intended as punishment, or provided as I say used as a downpayment when needed. This pattern has repeated, last time was prior to asking for a very expensive beach house vacation two summers ago, so I've had suspicions about it but never had her be so obvious about it before.

The other PA symptom is that she never responds to or gives affection. I am a very affectionate guy always wanting to hug or kiss or stroke, while she responded to this while we were dating for four years, about 1-2 years after marriage just started ignoring it. Now she complains immediately and insists I stop.

She complains about my financial management of our investments and savings, but refuses to discuss potential strategies or to take responsibility for these herself. Although I have asked her to take it over, she does very well with her own IRA, but won't touch our shared Checking, savings, or investments.

Ahhh, and my favorite, which now that I look back she demonstrated before we were married. She often invites me to make a choice for us, like say choosing a restaurant, and then will proceed to reject choice after choice after choice. It's like she's trying to make me explode, I've actually caught her smiling when I finally get sick of the game and get upset with her.

Most recently she's baited me into play-wrestling in our bedroom and then as we're wrestling shouted out loud enough for the kids to hear "stop hitting me". We're having fun, or I think we are and then that, it's happened twice in the last two weeks, most recently earlier this evening. 

I'm up right now because of it, I can't sleep, WHAT is she doing WHAT is she thinking? What am I being set up for? I'm actually terrified.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

God, I must seem pathetic. But all I want is to get to be a Father to my children, I would settle for a peaceful marriage, but I feel like I'm being set up, like there is a plan in place and steps being taken to take my life away from me. It's like I woke up one day and found myself married to someone who hates me and wants to destroy me.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

What's weird about the play-wrestling bit is that this is the exact behavior she claims her little brother used to use against her when they were little, i.e. setting her up with their parents by hitting himself and claiming she was doing it, often just around the corner or out of sight of their parents. 

I'm wondering if she told me that story quite the way it really happened.


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## ChiGirl (Jan 20, 2013)

Okay wow...

It's almost like she's bored and has turned you into a game or something. She has no respect for you.

I can attest to the while passive-aggressive sex thing, I think we all do it to a certain degree. Mostly I say something like that as a joke though, not because I have a plan I need to execute.

The putting you down in public and saying you are hitting her etc is very concerning.. I have a very close male friend who got involved with someone and almost got into serious trouble. (the girl admitted that she made them up, he wasn't making "enough effort" in their relationship.
She was eventually diagnosed as bipolar.
I can't imagine that my friends would even want to listen to me bad mouth my husband in front of them, how uncomfortable and rude.

There will always be issues in a relationship that you have to discuss and find a compromise for, I really think that some of the things going on here are RIDICULOUS, and you are making too many compromises.

I don't think you are out of line in giving her a piece of your mind when she starts doing any of those things. See how she reacts when you confront her.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Funny you say that, I keep getting the feeling that I'm being toyed with, cat and mouse style. I guess I have to admit that it's entirely possible that this woman that I have loved and admired for 22 years feels nothing but contempt for me, and that she really is trying to destroy me emotionally. That is hard to think, hard to type, hard to breathe through.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I think she's messed up and this goes way beyond any fitness test.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> God, I must seem pathetic. But all I want is to get to be a Father to my children, I would settle for a peaceful marriage, but I feel like I'm being set up, like there is a plan in place and steps being taken to take my life away from me. It's like I woke up one day and found myself married to someone who hates me and wants to destroy me.


Possible BPD, bipolar or some other untreated mental illness.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Have you sat down and calmly told her that you "feel" manipulated at times? That she is safe / free to just be direct even if that means you wont agree with her all the time?Its insulting your intelligence that she thinks you haven't figured out she is playing games with you ?

It may not stop her.But at least you can reveal "she ain't fooling you."

I've learned to at the time just point it out right on the spot when my husband is being passive aggressive...or I "feel' hes trying to manipulate me.I will also tell him he is being immature.He will say in an argument after he deflects and tries ever trick he can ..FINE! "You're right Im WRONG as USUAL! I say first of all you know that I know you do not believe that not even close..2nd of all that is an immature and antagonizing statement but I wont let you get to me.

At the very least I let him know I'm not going to fall for his games.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Man, you actually have several possibilities going on here which run the range from basic "betaization" and loss of attraction that pretty much happens to all married guys right on up to having a wife who is a sociopath with a plan to get you incarcerated.

Also, at a minimum Bible study guy tried to get into your wife's pants and at a minimum she did nothing to send him packing. And now she's friending him on FB and getting sexually cranked enough to attack you when she fantasizes about seeing him at the wine tasting. This guy may not be the only one over the years, either.

Whenever I hear about women who make their husbands wait 6 months between sex bouts, I always wonder where they're getting their sex quota filled. You probably think she's just not interested in sex, but it's more likely she's just not interested in sex with you, mainly due to betaization on your part. She's clearly in the driver's seat in this relationship, which is not the natural order of things. 

Also, even if your wife is totally nuts, it does absolutely no good to point this out. The vast majority of crazy people think they are totally sane and everyone else is trying to play a trick on them. Completely stop discussing relationship, sex, or anything like that with her. Be cool and get information on what's going on.

Is your wife a SAHM or does she work? Does she travel?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Have you sat down and calmly told her that you "feel" manipulated at times? That she is safe / free to just be direct even if that means you wont agree with her all the time?Its insulting your intelligence that she thinks you haven't figured out she is playing games with you ?
> 
> It may not stop her.But at least you can reveal "she ain't fooling you."


I need to talk to her about the last few weeks, I'm trying to figure out what to say. I guess just get some quiet time and do it. Stay calm, ignore the blowup and tell her she needs to understand how her behavior looks and how it makes me feel, regardless of her excuses or intent.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

IronicSmile said:


> Ok, so my wife of 18 years is giving me immature tests of manhood? Is that all this BS is?
> 
> Here's another behavior, she likes to embarrass me in public. She'll bring up something from my childhood or family that is painfully embarrassing at the most inappropriate moments, and then laugh it of and say she's just joking. The other nite we're having a nice meal and watching the super bowl with two of her female friends and she starts talkin about my first marriage and what a disaster it was. Painfully embarrassing, wanted to punch her in the face, but tried to laugh it off and change the subject. WTF is that? Sh*t Testing???


No, that`s a lack of respect.

She`d not do such a thing if she held respect for you.

Stop having sex with your wife until she is able to have sex for sex sake and not as a tool of manipulation.

Married Mans Sex Life probably wouldn`t hurt either.

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Man, you actually have several possibilities going on here which run the range from basic "betaization" and loss of attraction that pretty much happens to all married guys right on up to having a wife who is a sociopath with a plan to get you incarcerated.
> 
> -----
> 
> ...


She is a SAHM, but she homeschools our three kids. Even so, she has plenty of free time, but we're in a pretty tight military community. While I doubt she could be fooling around on base for very long without me finding out, the Bible study guy is about 60 miles away, that's a possibility.

I've checked her cel and email, and even installed some snooping software on her laptop. Have watched for about 2 weeks, not a thing, no texts, emails, chats nothing unusual and really nothing (including chat in words) with Bible guy. I found out this morning he's actually ignoring her requests to play words w/friends, which is not what she casually commented to me about several days ago.

So is that just a ploy to get me jealous and paying attention.

Is she just trying to establish the kids as "witnesses" and is setting me up? I'm avoiding all physical contact at this point and trying not to be alone in the same room with her. Even so, as I'm finishing my shower this morning she comes in and crowds me in the bathroom, naked as a jaybird, waiting to get in the shower.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

tacoma said:


> No, that`s a lack of respect.
> 
> She`d not do such a thing if she held respect for you.
> 
> ...


I got it on Kindle this morning, about halfway through it....making a lot of sense to me, still kinda seems like immature manipulation but I believe I need to get the hell over that preconceived bias, anything would be better than the path we're going down. 

I can definitely relate to the Betaizaion, when we married I was flying jets off of aircraft carriers, now i'm not flying anymore or deploying...teachiing instead, very stable, home a lot, and it feels like my only appreciated function in this home is providing the pay check and helping with the kids.

So maybe I was something of an alpha back in the day, although I wouldn't have characterized myself that way. That's who she married..and now I'm a professor basically. 

I guess I'm starting to see some of her issues with where we are now. I just thought, once the flying days were over, we would grow closer, have more time become better and better friends, just hasn't happened, exactly the opposite.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Good move with the intel ops. Keep them going. If she has a car, velcro a VAR to the bottom of her driver's seat.

I also agree with Tacoma that you need to download MMSL and read it ASAP. Don't let your wife know you're doing it. It will explain what is going on if this is the "normal" situation and how to get out of it.

I'm really troubled about your wife trying to establish a pattern of abuse and using your kids as witnesses. Get VAR or a hidden video camera into your bedroom, like the ones in clock radios and such. If she pulls this again download and archive the video every time it happens. JIC. Don't stop having sex with her if she offers it. In fact, if she's really not actually planning to blow your head off while you sleep and then use abuse as a defense, you want more sex. Right?

If you're in military housing, you're in a duplex or fourplex with shared walls, so the yelling may be meant for the adults next door.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> I got it on Kindle this morning, about halfway through it....making a lot of sense to me, still kinda seems like immature manipulation but I believe I need to get the hell over that preconceived bias, anything would be better than the path we're going down.
> 
> I can definitely relate to the Betaizaion, when we married I was flying jets off of aircraft carriers, now i'm not flying anymore or deploying...teachiing instead, very stable, home a lot, and it feels like my only appreciated function in this home is providing the pay check and helping with the kids.
> 
> ...


Okay, maybe you don't have shared walls on base.

Glad you're looking at MMSL. It's not manipulation at all, it's just giving women what they need (unknowingly) from men in order to be attracted to them.

Remember though, in the context of pulling and dealing with women, GEN Petraeus is a mega-beta. Most would think 4 stars equal "alpha" and it does not.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> and it feels like my only appreciated function in this home is providing the pay check and helping with the kids.


Not to minimize your pain but count that as something rather than nothing.I was the other way around .I felt like i was only appreciated for sex and everything else I did was dismissed as in taken for granted/devalued.As well as I was critisized for how I performed in the "other"roles besides sex partner.And even that "wasnt enough"(frequency).If your wife was critisizing your role as a father and provider including passive aggressive statements and "competing" with you as in she was "better at it' and saying its "not rocket science" and on top of that if you also in any way were depending on her for her income and through that up in your face then jumped all over you for sex after a while it takes away BIG time from the sexual "connection" that is more than just the "physical".You begin to feel "used for sex".And it being compared specifically to you providing?Its very hard to get around how is that not you getting "paid"(room and board food and "gifts") by your spouse in exchange for sex i.e prostitute.


Hmmm...now its just hitting me..did you say she told you to hire a prostitute?Then she has this pattern of initiating sex right before she hits you up for a trip or to spend a good sum of $$$$?

You might investigate that.Even if unintentionally something you have said or done or an "attitude" she may have deduced herself and her value in your relatationship liken to your in home prostitute.I mean that with NO offense.Thats a fairly common dynamic unfortunately .


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok, tried to have a conversation with my wife about all of this, seemed like a complete disaster, but maybe not. Maybe someone should have told me NOT to try talking to her about this? 

Anyway, brought up the "stop hitting me" behavior. She blows it off saying she was just joking, at first. Then follows up demanding to know why I would ask about it, what am I accusing her of. I respond that I'm not accusing just asking what she thinks she's doing and why. She demands again asking why I think she's so evil. So I tell her it's just really weird behavior and seems like she's trying to set me up or establish the kids as some sort of witnesses.

I ask if she feels like I've been abusing her, or if I've ever hurt her in any way, and she says "No, I was just joking", ...starting to feel like I should be recording all of this.

Just downhill from there, she is very emotional about it all, she brings up the wine tasting and I joke that I was hoping for a few more nites of manipulation sex......aaaaand it's off to the races. 

Basically, it boils down to, there's something wrong with me for thinking all this about her, there is no way she can win, all I see is this evil person, when really it's just me being suspicious and reading into things.

This is where I think she is very PA, essentially she feels that she is constantly victimized by me, and that I just over react to things, keep them inside and then punish her. She's right I have had some PA behavior too, there have been times when it seems like the only way to deal with the cold shoulder behavior, basically act like I don't care, keep on keeping on and ignoring it.

And she says that just the fact that I think these things and ask these questions is why she has no respect for me, and can't trust my judgement. 

Honestly, I feel like she has a point. Am I just over thinking all of her behavior? Am I just taking the frequent bouts of cold shoulder, humiliation, and nosex too personally. 

But something about the "stop hitting me" behavior just isn't right, blowing that off as a joke just doesn't sit true with me? And the manipulation sex, I'm telling you we haven't had sex like that in a couple of years, I was suspicious as soon as she initiated.

She never initiates and NEVER gets on top, just lays there while I do all the work. She initiated and was on top, sort of felt like I should have asked "who the hell are you and what did you do with my wife"???

So am I just overthinking all this? Was and is trying to talk to her about this behavior completely useless and destructive? Should I just move on and try to be more alpha? Pay attention to all the signals but use the MAP/MMSL to react? 

All I know is this little "talk" seemed utterly destructive and probably made things worse.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Okay, maybe you don't have shared walls on base.
> 
> Glad you're looking at MMSL. It's not manipulation at all, it's just giving women what they need (unknowingly) from men in order to be attracted to them.
> 
> Remember though, in the context of pulling and dealing with women, GEN Petraeus is a mega-beta. Most would think 4 stars equal "alpha" and it does not.


Well, we don't have shared walls. I think it's for the kids. She's blowing it off as "just joking"....then claims that she could take the wrestling bit and claim that is abuse....so the two statements together are just weird. If she was just joking, why bring up the wrestling as some sort of abuse, or even hint that it could be construed that way?

Feel like I'm treading on very thin ice here. I need to get some VAR's and place them in our bedroom and her car, I'm missing something here, and I need to have some proof that she's lying if she ever accuses me.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I'm a woman and I'm telling you, you are in a scary-ass situation! This is NOT just 'all you' just 'blowing shyt out of proportion'. Your wife is bat-shyt crazy...and dangerous.

Could be possible she is waiting until your youngest is 18, then she's gonna pull the whole...he's abused me, I need a divorce, and, oh yes! I need 99% of all our assets! Who knows? She's crazy-assed.

1. You need a VAR whenever you're alone with her.
2. You need to start the 180 NOW...TODAY..you're already behind the 8-ball. This woman is emotionally abusive and you need to disengage. 

To hell with doing the 180 so SHE'll find you more ALPHA and attractive! Who cares what this crazy woman wants! 

Do the 180 so that YOU can become the man YOU want to be, the man you used to be before she manipulated you into a shell of your former self. Become who is important to YOU.

*ONLY when you're who YOU want to be *can you make the best/correct choice possible for:

you
your kids
your wife (or STBXW)
your life
your marriage (or ex-marriage)
*GET STRAIGHT with yourself. NOW*. *THAT* is JOB #1. The 180 will get you there. Learn it. Live it.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Why do you continue to try and talk with her about her behavior?

Each time it ends up exactly the same - she gaslights you into convincing you that it "isn't that bad" or that you are "just looking too deeply into it." It's rather obvious she has some kind of mental or emotional imbalance - she's not going to just come out and admit "Yes, I'm manipulative and like it." If you want to get anywhere, you need to stop trying to discuss this directly with her. 

Also - she drives an hour away for Bible Study or the guy who is in her Bible study lives an hour away? Who watches the kids when she's doing this?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Ok, tried to have a conversation with my wife about all of this, seemed like a complete disaster, but maybe not. Maybe someone should have told me NOT to try talking to her about this?
> 
> Honestly, I feel like she has a point. Am I just over thinking all of her behavior? Am I just taking the frequent bouts of cold shoulder, humiliation, and no sex too personally.


Had I not been on my Ipad when I responded I would have told you talking to her won't work. It never does with emotionally unstable people. If anything it makes it worse.

On the second part your wife is emotionally abusive and what people like that do is turn it around to make YOU feel crazy. The sad part is you kinda sorta believe it. I'm just hoping that the fact that you are still posting means you don't completely believe her.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Usually I am the first to push someone to save their marriage at all costs. And when I see you talking about alot of her good qualities I can see that you still love alot of things about your wife. That being said there is clearly something going on here that you are ill equipped to handle. Also it appears that you are godly man so I can see how a divorce would not be your first or even second option. Does she exhibit any of these characteristics with anyone else. Like your children? It seems, at the very least, that your wife has some narcissistic tendencies. You say that your wife is heavily active in the church but that doesn't mean that she is following God's will. In fact, you can not follow God and be subject to the Holy Spirit and remain a narcissist. I would definately, at the very least, change to a different bible study, pronto, if not change churches entirely.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

I can't tell you all how grateful I am for your opinions and feedback, this forum is amazing, just seems like I can't talk about any of this with family or friends, it's all just too messy, messed up and frankly getting stranger and stranger.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> Usually I am the first to push someone to save their marriage at all costs. And when I see you talking about alot of her good qualities I can see that you still love alot of things about your wife. That being said there is clearly something going on here that you are ill equipped to handle. Also it appears that you are godly man so I can see how a divorce would not be your first or even second option. Does she exhibit any of these characteristics with anyone else. Like your children? It seems, at the very least, that your wife has some narcissistic tendencies. You say that your wife is heavily active in the church but that doesn't mean that she is following God's will. In fact, you can not follow God and be subject to the Holy Spirit and remain a narcissist. I would definately, at the very least, change to a different bible study, pronto, if not change churches entirely.


"Bible study" guy was from another location, we are no longer in that bible study. We've all moved on, and he is now about 60 miles away. We really haven't had much to do with them, beyond her being friends with both on FB. But suddenly we need to go to a wine tasting 3hrs away to see them and our other old Bible study friends. She was just "devastated" that I could make a connection between the two and see it as manipulation. Somehow I'm not convinced, but maybe it doesn't matter, IF I really see her this way, is there any hope for my marriage? I'm starting to doubt that.

You're right about the narcissism, she often talks about how she's helping people from our congregation deal with things like depression or loss, and I wonder why can't she have just a little bit of that compassion for me? 

You're right about my choices on marriage, I was a child of divorce and vowed to give my children a whole family, but lately I wonder how much damage my DW is doing to my children? But my prohibition is not biblical, I don't believe God meant us to dwell in misery, and I don't believe that every relationship can be salvaged.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> You're right about the narcissism, she often talks about how she's helping people from our congregation deal with things like depression or loss, and I wonder why can't she have just a little bit of that compassion for me?


My dad was a destructive narcissist so I know all too well what damage they can do their own family and how they operate.

But to answer your question narcissists by nature are more concerned about appearances than anything. They are charming, helpful, almost saint like to everyone BUT the people who live with them. Those who love them get the real them. Behind closed doors you get to see who they really are not the image they show the rest of the world. As to WHY they can't do that for you? Well they can't because it's not real. They don't care about those other people either. What they care about is feeding their own delusions of 'look how great I am'.

At home unless you stroke their ego 24/7 they won't like you very much.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> About 10 years ago I became very concerned about our marriage, she was very unhappy, had been since we were married and although I never understood it, I decided I had to do everything I could to "save" our marriage.


She became unhappy with your marriage right around the time she qualified to take 1/2 of your retirement income if you divorced. I assume you'll be retiring in a couple of years. Warrant officer? 

Dedicated mom doesn't want to strip daddy from her kids, but hates his guts for some reason and is planning her exit strategy. Let's see, your retirement income would give her an automatic income of about $2k a month, right? Not a bad way to start a life as a single woman with no children to interfere with her getting into another relationship. 

I think the beta stuff is a big part of what made her lose interest, but the immediate behaviors reasoning lies in the money.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Emerald said:


> Possible BPD, bipolar or some other untreated mental illness.


50 shades of crazy.

I'm going to try to send member "Uptown" over to this thread.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

1.) Go see a divorce attorney NOW. You don't have to file, but you DO have to get knowledgeable! Don't blow this off....you could be screwed BADLY and this woman WILL NOT CARE. She either HATES you or she is SERIOUSLY DAMAGED, either way, your emotional state of mind will be 'collateral damage' in her mind!

2.) Mavash & I have experience w/narcissists (left my narcissistic H in May 2012 after 19yrs of marriage). If she's NOT narcissist (and I believe she is), she's some flavor of personality-disordered. Move on it NOW. Sooner you address it (NOT with HER...these people are in denial BIG TIME), sooner you can salvage a liveable life for YOU and for your kids....they need to see at least ONE ADULT living an emotionally healthy life. And it WON'T be Mom!

Hang tough, and consider IC for YOU. It will help with your 180.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> IronicSmile:
> She was just "devastated" that I could make a connection between the two and see it as manipulation.


Of course she was "devastated"! You caught onto her game; she got sloppy and lazy and tipped her hand!

She's been blowing smoke up your azz for 18yrs and NOW she can't do it any more. She's no longer the one in control! You've changed her game plan.

I'm sure she's had her 'exit strategy' all laid out carefully for the last few years, and now you've screwed it all up! And you've WISED up! 

Now you're more dangerous to her self-centered plans!


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

How old are your children?


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> She became unhappy with your marriage right around the time she qualified to take 1/2 of your retirement income if you divorced. I assume you'll be retiring in a couple of years. Warrant officer?
> 
> Dedicated mom doesn't want to strip daddy from her kids, but hates his guts for some reason and is planning her exit strategy. Let's see, your retirement income would give her an automatic income of about $2k a month, right? Not a bad way to start a life as a single woman with no children to interfere with her getting into another relationship.
> 
> I think the beta stuff is a big part of what made her lose interest, but the immediate behaviors reasoning lies in the money.


About right, I'm pretty senior, 25 years. I just don't understand why she would start really hating me once I started really trying to save the marriage. And it just gets worse the more dedicated, helpful, and focused I am. 

But even in our first few years when I was deploying A LOT, I did prioritize her needs and wants. I know that a lot of other wives in our squadrons thought she had THE catch, the guys used to tell me to stop being a curve breaker (too thoughtful, too generous, generally too nice to my wife), and even my wife told me the other wives thought I was a great husband. I just don't understand how that turns into this victim/hate mentality.

I guess that's what this alpha-beta behavior is about, she actually treated me better when I was more focused on myself.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Of course she was "devastated"! You caught onto her game; she got sloppy and lazy and tipped her hand!
> 
> She's been blowing smoke up your azz for 18yrs and NOW she can't do it any more. She's no longer the one in control! You've changed her game plan.
> 
> ...


Yeah they hate it when you catch on. 

And here's a secret they are nothing but scared bullies. Pull back the curtain and you find a little person with a microphone who thinks they have all the power when really they have none.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

IronicSmile said:


> Ok, tried to have a conversation with my wife about all of this, seemed like a complete disaster, but maybe not. Maybe someone should have told me NOT to try talking to her about this?


Oops. Sorry about that, but contrary to what you may have heard elsewhere, talking about the relationship with a woman is pretty much an attraction killer. Contrary to old wives tales pedaled by relationship counselors, women do not respond positively to men who try to appeal to them through their prefrontal cortex. Quit talking about the relationship, quit talking about sex. Quit talking about what you're observing with her. All relationship talk is perceived as wheedling for sex, when you're in this kind of situation. Deeds, not words.

VAR her car, VAR the bedroom, VAR places she might be prone to sit and talk.



IronicSmile said:


> Anyway, brought up the "stop hitting me" behavior. She blows it off saying she was just joking, at first. Then follows up demanding to know why I would ask about it, what am I accusing her of. I respond that I'm not accusing just asking what she thinks she's doing and why. She demands again asking why I think she's so evil. So I tell her it's just really weird behavior and seems like she's trying to set me up or establish the kids as some sort of witnesses..


Well, this was bad to bring up with her. She's pretty well demonstrating that you are on to something, trouble is she now knows you've got your nose to the wind.



IronicSmile said:


> I ask if she feels like I've been abusing her, or if I've ever hurt her in any way, and she says "No, I was just joking", ...starting to feel like I should be recording all of this.


Keep a pen VAR in your shirt pocket.




IronicSmile said:


> Just downhill from there, she is very emotional about it all, she brings up the wine tasting and I joke that I was hoping for a few more nites of manipulation sex......aaaaand it's off to the races.


Start using your head and think tactically. You're clearly entering open warfare in this relationship, where up to now, it's just be guerrilla tactics on her part that you are just now becoming aware of. With this discussion, you've pointed out to her that you know she's walking you into an L-shaped ambush; she's going to say "who me? your nuts," and now she's going to call down an Arclight on your head. You need to nip this escalation in the bud by shutting up about the relationship. Act like it's all blown over. Just observe and analyze. Gather information. 



IronicSmile said:


> Basically, it boils down to, there's something wrong with me for thinking all this about her, there is no way she can win, all I see is this evil person, when really it's just me being suspicious and reading into things.


This means you have revealed that you are now awake. 



IronicSmile said:


> This is where I think she is very PA, essentially she feels that she is constantly victimized by me, and that I just over react to things, keep them inside and then punish her. She's right I have had some PA behavior too, there have been times when it seems like the only way to deal with the cold shoulder behavior, basically act like I don't care, keep on keeping on and ignoring it.


You should act like you don't care about her antics, to a point. Quit talking relationship. Always be open and friendly. Pay close attention to your body language. Use relaxed power stances. when she starts her antics, act ever so slightly amused. Look at your wife, for the time being, as if she's an exotic pet; dangerous, but amusing, and you're working on mastering her. And you won't be her lunch.

In the natural world, including humans in more natural societies, the Pareto Principle tells us that 20% of the males who are brought forth, will produce 80% of the offspring. To put it another way, 80% of the women are attracted to a mere 20% of the males. To use a slightly different set of labels than what is normally used here, this 20% is comprised of the Sigmas, Alphas, and Betas.

This is reflected in biblical marriage where the Alpha male has numerous wives already with more trying to get rid of their Beta/Delta/Gamma husbands so they can get on board. Think about Abigail and Bathsheba trying to hook up with David. The scientific term for this is female hypergamy.

You've only got one wife, but if you had a half dozen, how would you react to her antics? Well, that's what her limbic has been programmed by the Creator to expect. Even though you've only got the one wife, you need to act, without ever saying it, like you can get two other women in about five minutes. Women sexually respond to limbic stimulation not cortex. Understand? You don't want to project arrogance, just cool confidence in your abilities, especially your ability to get women.




IronicSmile said:


> And she says that just the fact that I think these things and ask these questions is why she has no respect for me, and can't trust my judgement.


No, it means you're starting to see through her smokescreen and she knows it. So, she's trying to drop a load of Bravo Sierra on your head. 



IronicSmile said:


> Honestly, I feel like she has a point. Am I just over thinking all of her behavior? Am I just taking the frequent bouts of cold shoulder, humiliation, and nosex too personally.


No, and don't let her gaslight you. It's a huge problem, but you make it worse by your overt appeals to reason. She has lost attraction to you for some reason, and Bible study guy is at least one of the men she's transferred that onto. 90% odds of a PA there, as I'm sure you realize. The remaining 10% would be she wanted to, but wasn't able to consummate. That's why she got hot at the idea of seeing him again. You already know this.



IronicSmile said:


> But something about the "stop hitting me" behavior just isn't right, blowing that off as a joke just doesn't sit true with me? And the manipulation sex, I'm telling you we haven't had sex like that in a couple of years, I was suspicious as soon as she initiated.


Exactly. 



IronicSmile said:


> She never initiates and NEVER gets on top, just lays there while I do all the work. She initiated and was on top, sort of felt like I should have asked "who the hell are you and what did you do with my wife"???


The same woman who was most likely the aggressor with Bible study guy. You were his stand-in at the rehearsal for the reunion.




IronicSmile said:


> So am I just overthinking all this? Was and is trying to talk to her about this behavior completely useless and destructive? Should I just move on and* try to be more alpha? Pay attention to all the signals but use the MAP/MMSL to react? *


You're not overthinking things, but you're sure making a mistake by over revealing your thinking. Discussion with her on these topics just makes her escalate the conflict from guerrilla to set piece open warfare, which she was probably planning to do anyway at some point. The bolded section is the avenue of attack.



IronicSmile said:


> All I know is this little "talk" seemed utterly destructive and probably made things worse.


You are correct.

ETA:


Machiavelli said:


> Completely stop discussing relationship, sex, or anything like that with her. Be cool and get information on what's going on.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Emerald said:


> How old are your children?


15, 12, and 8.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Machiavelli, I have to say, I think you are right on target. Thanks for the helpful analysis. I'm on a four day trip starting today, no chance to get VARs yet, so probably going to miss alot of maneuvering. 

I am definitely going to go see a lawyer this week.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

TopGun (aka, "IronicSmile"), I am posting this comment only because Emerald has asked me to do so. I've been following your thread since you started it four days ago. I did not participate in it earlier only because much of the advice I would have given has already been offered by other members -- and you ignored it, apparently deciding it is not relevant to your W's situation. 

Well, that is fine. Indeed, that is exactly what you are supposed to do. The way it works here on TAM is that, because an OP understands his own situation a thousand times better than any other member, we respondents will suggest a variety of potential remedies (or courses of action) and then the OP chooses the ones best fitting his own situation.

I nonetheless believe you may have overlooked some very helpful advice. I suggest you reconsider, for example, Kathy's suggestion -- in posts #12 and #14 above -- that you adopt the detachment method called the "180." Another member, Slowly, also suggested it to you. So far, however, you haven't commented on that suggestion or responded to them specifically.

I also suggest you reconsider the advice given by Emerald, Fledgling, and Machiavelli -- namely, their advice that you seem to be describing strong traits of a personality disorder (PD). Indeed, the strong passive-aggressive traits you describe were once believed -- for many decades -- to constitute a full-fledged PD in its own right. Specifically, the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-III) included a PD called "Passive Aggressive Disorder." 

Since the adoption of DSM-IV in 1980, however, P-A traits have been downgraded from being a full-fledged PD to being only one of the traits that are characteristic of several other PDs -- namely, BPD (Borderline PD), AsPD (Antisocial PD, aka "Sociopathic"), and NPD (Narcissistic PD). This is why Emerald suggested you consider _BPD_ traits, Machiavelli suggested _sociopathic_ traits, and Fledgling mentioned _narcissism_.

I caution that, if your W exhibits a strong pattern of PD traits, they would be not only strong but also persistent. That is, PD traits do not disappear for several years and then suddenly emerge in the last few years of an 18 year marriage. Rather, what typically happens is that they disappear only during the infatuation period during the courtship. 

With BPDers, their dysfunctional traits vanish because the woman's infatuation over you will hold her fears at bay. With narcissists and sociopaths, however, this disappearance occurs because they are actively manipulating you. The result is that, with all three of these groups (i.e., BPDers, narcissists, and sociopaths), sex and affection usually goes off a cliff right after the wedding -- and then typically will reappear only sporadically thereafter. 

This behavior seems somewhat consistent with what you describe, i.e., her withdrawal of affection and use of P-A punishments throughout 17 years of the 18-year marriage. Yet, based on what you've told us so far, TopGun, I'm not convinced you are describing a woman having a full-blown PD. Nor am I convinced that she necessarily has strong PD traits. I am convinced, however, that you are describing a sufficient number of red flags as to make it well worth your time to pursue three courses of action: 

First, I heartily agree with Machiavelli's suggestion that you carry a VAR with you at all times and also have a nanny-CAM in the home to record your W's false allegations, e.g., "stop hitting me." As a man who spent 3 days in jail because of a W's false allegations, I am keenly aware of the dangers you face if your W has strong PD traits (as my exW does). 

Second, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your three kids are dealing with. Importantly, you cannot safely rely on what HER therapist tells you. Doing so would be as foolish as relying on HER attorney for advice during a divorce. It is important that you obtain advice from a psychologist who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR interests, not hers.

Third, I suggest that -- while you are waiting for an appointment, you read about PD traits so you know what red flags to look out for. Of course, you won't be able to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional can do that. You nonetheless will be able to spot all of the red flags -- e.g., those for BPD or AsPD -- if you take time to read about them. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and icy withdrawal.

An easy place to start reading is my description of BPD traits in my post in Maybe's thread. I am suggesting you start with BPD traits because several of the behaviors you describe -- e.g., lack of trust, always being "The Victim," P-A punishments, and abusive tantrums (when challenged) -- are classic traits of BPD. On the other hand, several important BPD traits are totally absent from your description. But perhaps you will recognize them when reading about BPD behaviors. 

My post about BPD is located at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If your W does exhibit strong BPD traits, she almost certainly would be what is called a "quiet BPDer." I therefore also suggest you read A.J. Mahara's description of "quiet borderlines" at Borderline Personality - The Quiet Acting In Borderline and The Silent Treatment - Nons - Borderline Personality Disorder Inside Out. 

If either of those two descriptions rings a bell, there are many of us here who would be glad to discuss it with you because we have had years of experience living with BPDers. We also can point you to good online resources. Take care, TopGun.


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## Sigma Uber Alles (Oct 15, 2012)

Another fine example of Machiavelli's shiningly astute and flowingly erudite summations of an OP's situation... if only there was such a forum with such discerning contributors years ago, I would never have had to be here.

(??? Isn't that some sort of circular logical failure???):scratchhead:


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Uptown, thank you you're like the Marriage Whisperer! Kathy and Slowly, I should have paid more attention about the 180, read it, liked it, but didn't do it. Thinking too much and thinking I can have rational communication with her, have to have to have to stop trying that, it has never worked it will never work. She was a debate champion in high school, I'm never going to out talk her or convince her of a damn thing. We're in Icy Withdrawel right now, i'm on my trip and trying to remember all the rules of the 180. Thanks!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

IronicSmile said:


> Uptown, ...we're in Icy Withdrawel right now.


Like I said, TopGun, icy withdrawal and other passive-aggressive antics constitute one of the classic traits of the three PDs mentioned by Emerald, Fledgling, and Machiavelli. I therefore suggest you follow the two links I provided when, and if, you have time on your trip.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

BPD, now that's interesting. I have joked about her having OCD, well sort of joked. She has a massive list of control issues and things that she just can't live with. 

We had this long battle over me not putting the toothpaste in exactly the right place in the bathroom cabinet. It has to be on a certain shelf a certain distance from the side, which just happens to be (cabinet is mirrored inside) the general area where my face is when I shave in the morning. She would move it back to the exact place every morning and I would move it out of the way every time I shaved. 

I didn't even know we were having an "argument" until she blew up at me one day with "why do you have to move the toothpaste?" Tons of stories like this in every part of our lives, I really should write them all down.

Thing is I don't even get phased anymore, she comes up with some twisty little requirement and me and the kids just smirk at each other and go along. Although, to be honest sometimes I "forget" if she's been especially annoying, is it evil to antagonize her like that?

I really didn't think she had a real problem, just really picky about the house, her car, the parking spot, any surface in the house, making the bed in the morning, it just goes on and on, impossible really to remember them all.


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## Marco (Dec 12, 2012)

hello IronicSmile,

As someone who is currently going through a somewhat similar situation. i would really suggest you take all advise given by forum members. Trust me i know it is hard and I am going through it also but it would be for the best. Ignore the hell out of her but don't make it seem to obvious, don't get angry and don't react. I laughed so much while reading your posts not because i found it funny but because it just shed so much light on my situation. i would be very happy to share my post if you would like, so you can also laugh. My problem is that whenever i get to that point of being fed up and just decide to ignore, she reels me back in again with some sentimental **** and then i fall for it. Then its back to her ignoring me and being stone walled cold.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> BPD, now that's interesting. I have joked about her having OCD, well sort of joked. She has a massive list of control issues and things that she just can't live with.
> 
> We had this long battle over me not putting the toothpaste in exactly the right place in the bathroom cabinet. It has to be on a certain shelf a certain distance from the side, which just happens to be (cabinet is mirrored inside) the general area where my face is when I shave in the morning. She would move it back to the exact place every morning and I would move it out of the way every time I shaved.
> 
> ...


So these are actions that she applies to everyone, even the children? Stories like the one above don't tend to raise alot of flags for me. After all, her OCDish tendencies while inconvenient in the moment probably make your lives alot easier. If you didn't have her there to make things "just right" you'd probably think the average person was a slob.

Also while I do think that she shows definate narcissisitic qualities I would really hate for you to so far as to secretly spy on her and form your own "exit plan". Then, imho, you are no better than you expect her of being. If these behaviours are as detrimental as they seem to be go get the counsel of your pastor and put the wheel into motion for a separation. It makes no sense to me to give her the opportunity to sabotage you and record it in the meantime. Just make a clean break.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Marco said:


> hello IronicSmile,
> whenever i get to that point of being fed up and just decide to ignore, she reels me back in again .


That is exactly it, whenever I get fed up, she starts doing nice things all of a sudden, mind you almost never actual affection or sex. But she'll make a great meal or do something really thoughful. 

Of course after a day or two of reconciliation, or maybe up to a week, I start responding with normal affection. You know hugs, kisses, gentle affection, once we get here she goes stone cold again. Then it is just frustration city.

I heard a term I thought applied, I thinks it's called "crazy making", that's what I feel like she's doing just trying to keep me on edge, feeling desperate and bewildered. No matter what she can't and won't respond to my attention or affection, once she has it again.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> her OCDish tendencies while inconvenient in the moment probably make your lives alot easier.
> 
> I would really hate for you to so far as to secretly spy on her and form your own "exit plan". Then, imho, you are no better than you expect her of being.
> 
> ...


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think you should go ahead and take steps to protect yourself. 

BTW, I think that when you guys know that your woman comes closer when you pull away and gets obnoxious when you're there for her, it may be time to think about how to make yourself look detached all the time if you're not going to leave. 

Part of the problem may be you, part of it is her. By separating and learning to let your cooler head do your thinking 100% of the time, you can regain a lot of the control and affection you need.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Day three of four day trip. Wive is stone cold silent. Texted her asking how the kids are doing. But nothing. That's what I expected.

About the 180? 

I don't see why I should get her a valentines card for Thursday, it seems needy, I'm not needy I'm pissed. Our last discussion ended with her screaming her contempt and disgust at me, I guess one good thing about confronting, she showed me her true colors.

I'm thinking about closing our joint checking, savings, and paying off the one det we co-hold with some of our savings. Opening accounts in my name only. I think that part of her contempt is that she never has to ask for anything or give me credit for earning every penny in our lives. 

So really, she's so awesome that money just appears, then I show up wanting sex WTF am I thinking???

So I'm thinking, turn that flippin nozzle off, give her cash if she's still willing to do the grocery shopping, otherwise she can ask for what she needs, and ask nicely.

What do you think, is that way too agressive? Not in line with the 180?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Why are you texting her about the kids? Call your children instead. 

As far as the rest... I probably would not advise closing those accounts, but I would encourage you to go ahead and open new ones and put your money in them. Leave some in the joint account, but remove an amount that's reasonably yours if you want.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

IronicSmile said:


> Fledgling said:
> 
> 
> > her OCDish tendencies while inconvenient in the moment probably make your lives alot easier.
> ...


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> her OCDish tendencies while inconvenient in the moment probably make your lives alot easier.
> 
> I would really hate for you to so far as to secretly spy on her and form your own "exit plan". Then, imho, you are no better than you expect her of being.


Well, we have agreed to monitor the computers in the house in order to keep track of our children's computer use. We tell the kids about the software, and we do check their activity. I've just used the same software to check up on her a time or two.

Otherwise I've just used our detailed phone bill and a look at her phone a few times to see if she's been up to anything.

I haven't found anything, I don't know when she would have time.



> Right now it appears that you have no intention of staying (and I don't balme you) so just make a clean break.


Well, I'm not convinced our marriage can't be saved? Does it seem that way? Came back from my trip, brought the family a really nice fruit tart as a Valentines dessert. No card or gift specifically for my DW.

She's still pretty pissed I guess, not a single word to me, won't even stay in the same room. I am not following her, or going out of my way to try to talk to her. Catching up with my kids and watching some TV, reading and rereading the 180 rules!


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Oh, during my trip, got to spend a lot of time talking to strangers, really a great trip. Spent a good portion of last evening having a nice conversation with a beautiful young woman. 

I just kept it fun, confident and flirty, but as MMSL discusses just having a woman show some nice interest was a real emotional boost after all the crap treatment from DW. 

Helped me feel like an Alpha again, definitely giving me some confidence to ignore my wife's childish manipulative behavior. I think she's pretty puzzled, shocked, worried that I'm not responding to her usual tricks and twists. This forum has been like a secret weapon to understanding and properly reacting to her behavior.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok, so wife woke up this morning miserable. I went into the kitchen to get coffee and then made myself breakfast. She started talking to me about how she just can't get past how I "accused" her of all these terrible behaviors.

She seems genuinely deeply hurt that I could think she's been manipulating me and claims that last weeks events were just complete coincidences. As she got emotional I told her I didn't want to argue about it, and I needed to get ready for work.

She followed me into the bathroom and stood in the door while I was shaving and brushing my teeth, continuing to talk. Mostly it boils down to how can she stay married to a man who thinks such terrible things about her. She's is absolutely adamant that she is the only victim in this marriage, and that I have caused all of the damage through my behavior. I admit, I am often moody about her erratic and inconsistent behavior, a little bit of cold shoulder or icy silence can send me off into misery for days on end.

Finally, she accuses me of having an affair. Apparantly all of my behavior adds up to an affair. Honestly, I burst out laughing. I've been such a miserable wretch for the past 5 years or so, I can't imagine anyone wanting to sleep with me, much less carry on a relationship. It is absolutely absurd.

What's more, I took the job I'm in now, and gave up a choice assignment expressly to try and save our relationship. This job has fairly easy hours, and allows me to focus significantly more attention on wife and kids. But it was a complete career killer, I'm not bitter about that AT ALL. But seems like I should get some credit here, instead I'm a wife beating cheater. God Help ME!!!


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## watermelonmountain (Feb 15, 2013)

Drover said:


> It's not immature. In a way it's a sign she cares, even loves you. If you never meet the test, why shouldn't she continue it? It's entirely possible she doesn't even realize that's what she's doing. She just knows she's not happy with you, not happy with the fact you let her run all over you, not happy with you letting her to make the decisions. She's pushing you to do something about it...maybe consciously, maybe subconsciously.


Wow, that hit home. I find I'm that way with my husband. He can never make decisions unless they are work related or sports related. It drives me completely insane. I've walked on him trying to get him to get a spine. It still hasn't happened and I don't think it ever will. I'm miserable in our marriage, but there's more to it than that.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Continue what you're doing IronicSmile. It's having an effect that is necessary. There's no way to predict if it will help or hurt your relationship, but it's easy to predict that your relationship will not change for the better without these challenges. 

You've both got ingrained behaviors that aren't easily changed. When changes begin, the other party doesn't want to adapt and will escalate the situation to try to force the changing person to go back to the status quo. It's what they're familiar with and able to handle. The unknown is scary, and she's showing you that she doesn't know what is happening when she makes accusations. 

Ride it out. Reassure her that you aren't having an affair, but be clear that you *are* changing because you're unhappy with the relationship.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

180-wise, I'm not sure I'd "reassure her" that you're not having an affair. It's not YOUR JOB to make her feel better about that.

I'd simply state it ONE TIME, "*I am not now, nor have I ever had an affair nor been involved with anyone other than YOU since we started dating/got engaged/got married. Let THAT be the end of the accusations*." 

Then I would REFUSE to ever discuss it or react to it in any way ever again. If she brings it up in the future, simply state calmly, "We addressed that issue before. The status is unchanged."


JMHO


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Wife is on a weekend trip with our two oldest. I'm thinking about our discussion/argument yesterday. She basically demanded an apology or she was not going to be able to stay in the marriage. She wanted me to take back everything I had said about her manipulating me and the questions I asked about the "don't hit me" episodes, calling them accusations.

She was adamant, in tears, almost hysterical. I didn't apologize, I told her that I thought that would basically validate all of her behavior and her excuses about her behavior. Until she stopped pretending to be nothing but a victim in our relationship and recognized her own behavior and treatment of me as part of our problems we would just be in a crazy making loop.

I did apologize for my own sometimes moody and even PA behavior. Things between us can get ugly sometimes and it's hard to tell where it starts and ends sometimes. As she was leaving on her trip I did hug her and tell her I loved her and wanted our marriage to get better. Probably not very good 180 behavior.

Thing is, there is no sign that she's owning her own BS, totally adamant that the manipulation sex was just a coincidence. Won't discuss the "don't hit me" behavior at all, it was just a joke end of story, thrown in with another reference to me wrestling with her was abuse. SHE initiated the wrestling! 

I'm starting to seriously thing she is freaking insane! How in the world can I spend 30-40 more years living with this crazy abusive woman? I feel like one of those cats chasing an f..ing laser dot around the living room. It is just not possible to catch that dot, no matter how hard I try.

Thing is, she is a lovely woman, not beautiful mind you, although not hard on the eyes. But strong, capable, intelligent, frugal, fit, ....ugh, I could go on for awhile, I really do love her and admire her, I just hate the way she treats me. 

It's like we can go to a party and people think we have this totally fabulous marriage. We make a handsome couple, and for most of the party (with the occasional little humiliation trick she pulls) we have a great time, are affectionate, and I actually believe this woman loves me and wants me. But the second we get home all of that is turned off, like a light switch. I end up with someone who is too tired, or just uninterested, or there is something I've done and all of the intimacy and affection just vanishes.

The other aspect is that people love her because she is considerate and kind, and fun and funny. And when I can observe her interacting with others, I am so jealous, because I don't really get to be around that person. It's like it all gets turned off when it's just two of us. OH I get that when we're out in public mostly.

Just seems to me like the only interest she has in our marriage is as some sort of mirage, to make others think we're this awesome couple. But internally, she views me as some sort of abuser or as her brother and father (both of whom she claims emotionally abused her). Guess that's how I feel, like no matter what I do she somehow categorizes me as them, and that is what she has done for our entire marriage. 

Basically she seems to have a very selective memory, and she seems to remember everything in a fashion that makes me into being just like her Dad, and to some extent her brother. Take the "don't hit me" behavior. She has used that before I believe against her brother, yes she told me the story the other way around. But I think she's twisted that all up.

I just don't want to give up on my family, on my kids. Honestly, without kids I would have fled years ago. She clearly does not want to be married to me, the current BS seems aimed at driving me out. I AM NOT going to be the one to leave however, I love my family, and love my children, if I'm such a monster then she can leave.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> 180-wise, I'm not sure I'd "reassure her" that you're not having an affair. It's not YOUR JOB to make her feel better about that.
> 
> I'd simply state it ONE TIME, "*I am not now, nor have I ever had an affair nor been involved with anyone other than YOU since we started dating/got engaged/got married. Let THAT be the end of the accusations*."
> 
> ...


That is great advice Slowly, I'm stewing about that, does she really think that or is it just a pre-emptive accusation. HER behavior seems to have all the hallmarks of someone who is having an affair, not mine.

I want intimacy with her, she is avoiding it at all costs. I want to discuss our problems and find real solutions talk things out. She is making "demands/or else" statements, with divorce as the or else.

I will refuse to discuss or defend on this subject in the future. It is flipping ridiculous BTW, I literally burst out laughing. I have been so focused and obsessed with my family/marriage situation I have given up all absences/hobbies/friends except work related. Feel like I've become some sort of monk, who does nothing except try to be a great father/husband.

Ugh, that doesn't sound very attractive...even to me.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> You don't know, for sure that this is what she is doing, yet.


No, but every time I've brought it up, she explains how she "could" claim that I was hurting her by "pinning her to the bed" and "wrestling". Seems like nothing but a threat, clumsy and kind of silly, but a threat nonetheless.

I think I have to take it very seriously indeed. Not to mention she knows that the absolute worst thing she could ever do to me would be to prevent me from seeing our kids. Our marriage has been all about punishment, I can only assume if we were divorced that that relationship would be nothing but punishment also.


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## Ignis (Feb 16, 2013)

Definitely she has a good reason to behave that way. I am not saying it is your fault, but her inner self is struggling with some issues. 

Many times woman can become very ignorant to her man just because she is not heard in a relationship. She first try to talk with husband, expressing her problems, and all what she hears are tips, advises, solutions...

In reality, what she wants is only talking about problems, without being judged in any way or being advised how things should be.

I am not saying this is particular your problem, but it might be, since poor communication is #1 problem in many many marriages.

If she behave so "alive" when talking to her friends, try to think why...


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

IS your set of issues is so much like mine. I would have said that it was me who was writing it except for the fact that my wife does not appear to have those qualities that you appreciate in your wife. Sure she has a lovely smile sometimes but every other PA behaviour that your wife shows to you I get it too. More than that she is also verbally abusive.

I didnt understand her emotional abuse and maniupulation and was always wondering what the hell is wrong with her. Her extreme PA and manipulative behaviour would drive me nuts sometimes and used to get me to be angry. Then she would start blaming me about it.

I always thought that Her duty sex attitude ( even though she orgasmed) was the cause. But lately I have after spending half a year on reading and seeing marriage improvement videos (and motivating her to see them she refuses to read anything and does not want to watch them) have I realised things like personality disorders, passive aggressiveness, emotional abuse etc.

My heart goes out to you. I am in the same hellish issue with my wife and I am keenly following this thread.

I did get some encouraging changes from His needs her needs book. I do hope that she is not doing the same manipulation thing again just to keep me attached.

My problem is also that every successful changes I make are soon undone by her mother and a friend. They keep repeating direct and indirect messages of how loathsome me and my family are and she cleverly selectively narrates goings on between us. I ask her not to speak of our private issues/problems with other as it breaks the good improvements done between us but she is unable to hold herself back.

At this date I have started to look at her as a funny creature who I can see through - whimsical attitude, PA behaviour, emotional abuse and manipulation, and call her each and every move.

Taking tips from MMSL as well and from this forum.

I think you are in the right track. I just wish her stupid friend and her mom and dad would get out of the way and stop messing her mind.

Realizing I cannot change her directly, I am changing myself and it gave some good results. Started with acknowleding my own issues such as anger (though caused by her PA mostly). Then validating her feelings.

I am otherwise pressured by other personal problems. Have realized many things and working on many personal problems at the same time. I am getting happier though.

At least I seem to be going the improvement path largely thanks to this forum and the resources indicated by so many good contributors here.

I identify with you a lot.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Yep UKV, what's freaking me out is how completely in denial she is. I admit that I've gotten frustrated, but mostly I just get moody. But I always try to talk it out eventually, it never goes anywhere, somehow it's always only my fault and only my behavior that is to blame.

No matter what I admit about my behavior or what I apologize for, she never admits to causing any hurt, or to being responsible for anything. As far as she's concerned my behavior is completely unrelated to her behavior just proof that I am a monster. So flipping frustrating.

Think the 180 and the MMSL hits it on the head, this just isn't something that talking or reason will solve. Move on, fix our own problems and become someone again who any woman would be interested in being around.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

IS:
Get yourself to a DIVORCE ATTORNEY this NEXT WEEK, PLEASE! Get some legal counsel on YOUR RIGHTS to your children and to the finances. If she's threatening divorce, you don't want to be straggling behind trying to play catch-up!

Your kids NEED Y-O-U in their lives (she's a MESS), don't let HER push you out of their lives. How will they ever learn NORMAL, ADULT, HEALTHY, etc. if you get bulldozed because you're ill-prepared?

Find a SHARK attorney, get some free/cheap advice and FOLLOW IT!


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Thank you Slowly, I am following your advice. Will speak to an attorney on Wednesday. Am dreading it, feeling absolutely sick about it, but know it must be done. 

Had a great time with my 8 year old this weekend, spent the time trying to find the best taco place in our town, bowling and shopping. Love that little girl more than anything.


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