# When you find out the 'details' of the PA....



## Hurtin_Still

....does it ever make sense, or serve a purpose, to never want to replicate, duplicate, perform, act out ...etc ...in any manner, way, form that to other POS did with your wife, partner, etc?

...after 17 years, the anger about my wife's (supposed) one nighter with someone else finally boiled over. Before you look twice...yes, I said 17 years. We have been together ever since that "indiscretion" ...and I took a path to reconciliation. But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name ...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.

...this all has been brought to the front burner by:

1: My lack of trust in her (she played the trust card in our marriage ...and it's been in the discard pile ever since.)

2: She's planned a 5 night getaway in Fla with 5 of her HS girlfriends ...which ...brings to a boil issue #1.

My anger lately has been so off the charts that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long. The ultimatum was basically, get help ...stop ...fix this ...or I'm leaving to get an apartment ...taking daughter(s) .[one is 17, the other 23].

....let's start with this ...I want to be head over heals in love with her. It physically hurts to deal with the emotion associated with the thought of another guy touching her. I'm probably shortening my lifespan for enduring this level of hurt and the affiliated hostility. It's probably not a good thing either that in lieu of having "real meds" ...I prefer to have a few shots of bourbon every so often to numb the pain.

...we had a LONG talk about this today ...because she wouldn't get out of my face until we did. And as such, I got more and more angry with her that ...for lack of a better way of saying it ....she just wouldn't let me be angry because if was affecting her. 

....I spilled my guts again ...and I demanded answers. I wanted to know what this other guys name was, where he lived, etc. Her answer, "_does it really matter 17 years later"? _ I did the whole explanation to her about what SHOULD have happened back then on D-Day ...including disclosure, details, names, addresses, phone numbers, no contact statements...etc. _(too bad TAM didn't exist then)_. She remained clueless ...thinking ."it's over...let's move on".

...I told her ..."_you and I were the only people that each of us had ever slept with ...and you told me that you you had to love someone in order to sleep with them_"...." _what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"?_ She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words. 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her. 

....so the question I have for those that have stayed with a wayward spouse, "are you afraid to say or do anything that will remind you partner of the other man/woman".

...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.


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## SomedayDig

No. Never be afraid to say anything that will remind your wife of the xOM. No matter how long ago it was. A remorseful spouse understands the full extent and pain that they caused the betrayed.

I was a details guy. I needed them to stop the horrible mind movies I had cuz I have an active imagination. It's kind of odd sounding, but that's just how I dealt with sh-t. It was much better knowing what happened then wondering what happened.

You are not sick, she is simply scared to tell you. She's scared to tell you because she knows you will be angry and rightly so.

"I want you". F*ck, man...that hits so close to home with my own wife's commentary regarding her xOM.


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## Will_Kane

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....does it ever make sense, or serve a purpose, to never want to replicate, duplicate, perform, act out ...etc ...in any manner, way, form that to other POS did with your wife, partner, etc?
> 
> ...after 17 years, the anger about my wife's (supposed) one nighter with someone else finally boiled over. Before you look twice...yes, I said 17 years. We have been together ever since that "indiscretion" ...and I took a path to reconciliation. But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name ...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.
> 
> ...this all has been brought to the front burner by:
> 
> 1: My lack of trust in her (she played the trust card in our marriage ...and it's been in the discard pile ever since.)
> 
> 2: She's planned a 5 night getaway in Fla with 5 of her HS girlfriends ...which ...brings to a boil issue #1.
> 
> My anger lately has been so off the charts that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long. The ultimatum was basically, get help ...stop ...fix this ...or I'm leaving to get an apartment ...taking daughter(s) .[one is 17, the other 23].
> 
> ....let's start with this ...I want to be head over heals in love with her. It physically hurts to deal with the emotion associated with the thought of another guy touching her. I'm probably shortening my lifespan for enduring this level of hurt and the affiliated hostility. It's probably not a good thing either that in lieu of having "real meds" ...I prefer to have a few shots of bourbon every so often to numb the pain.
> 
> ...we had a LONG talk about this today ...because she wouldn't get out of my face until we did. And as such, I got more and more angry with her that ...for lack of a better way of saying it ....she just wouldn't let me be angry because if was affecting her.
> 
> ....I spilled my guts again ...and I demanded answers. I wanted to know what this other guys name was, where he lived, etc. Her answer, "_does it really matter 17 years later"? _ I did the whole explanation to her about what SHOULD have happened back then on D-Day ...including disclosure, details, names, addresses, phone numbers, no contact statements...etc. _(too bad TAM didn't exist then)_. She remained clueless ...thinking ."it's over...let's move on".
> 
> ...I told her ..."_you and I were the only people that each of us had ever slept with ...and you told me that you you had to love someone in order to sleep with them_"...." _what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"?_ She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words. 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her.
> 
> ....so the question I have for those that have stayed with a wayward spouse, "are you afraid to say or do anything that will remind you partner of the other man/woman".
> 
> ...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.


Of course you're not sick. It is your marriage and your wife, of course you are going to want the details. What does your wife base her statements on? Has she consulted any books about infidelity and typical behaviors and needs of betrayed spouses? Or that's just her opinion, stated authoritatively by her, to get you to shut up?

I'm sorry for the pain you endured all these years wondering.

There is another thread here now from a wife whose husband cheated on her a year and a half ago and still won't give her the details.

I'm guessing that no one ever knew she cheated on you. She sounds like she lords it over you - she sounds like she knows you will not divorce her no matter what. As a matter of fact, she is using the tactic that she WILL threaten divorce to get you into line and stop asking questions. "I cheated, you're just lucky I stopped, now be happy with what I told you or I will divorce you, and we both know that YOU don't want that!"

So, what would happen if you threatened divorce unless she came clean with the details? Would she live without you rather than give you the details? After all, all you are asking for is the truth.

Change this around to suit your situation and give it to your wife.

_I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. 

No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes. 

You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. 

You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have. 

Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. 

To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. 

When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important. 

Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. 

You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it. 

So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. 

I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier. 

So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. 

It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.​_


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## 3putt

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.


Print this off and leave it for her to find. Maybe this will help her understand why you can't move forward and simply forgive and forget. You could modify it to meet your needs now as it has been 17 years since this happened.

I haven't found anyone that knows the letter's true origin, but that doesn't really matter at this point. Your goal is to make her understand why you need the "pieces of the puzzle".

You'll understand why I put that one phrase in quotations in a minute.



> *Joseph's Letter*
> 
> "To Whomever,
> 
> "I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
> 
> "You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.
> 
> "Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
> 
> "So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
> 
> "So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."
> 
> (end of Joseph's Letter)


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## Hurtin_Still

Will_Kane said:


> Of course you're not sick. It is your marriage and your wife, of course you are going to want the details. What does your wife base her statements on? Has she consulted any books about infidelity and typical behaviors and needs of betrayed spouses? Or that's just her opinion, stated authoritatively by her, to get you to shut up?
> 
> I'm sorry for the pain you endured all these years wondering.
> 
> There is another thread here now from a wife whose husband cheated on her a year and a half ago and still won't give her the details.
> 
> I'm guessing that no one ever knew she cheated on you. She sounds like she lords it over you - she sounds like she knows you will not divorce her no matter what. As a matter of fact, she is using the tactic that she WILL threaten divorce to get you into line and stop asking questions. "I cheated, you're just lucky I stopped, now be happy with what I told you or I will divorce you, and we both know that YOU don't want that!"
> 
> So, what would happen if you threatened divorce unless she came clean with the details? Would she live without you rather than give you the details? After all, all you are asking for is the truth.
> 
> Change this around to suit your situation and give it to your wife.
> 
> _I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.
> 
> No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn’t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn’t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I’m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
> 
> You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.
> 
> You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you’re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn’t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don’t have.
> 
> Now let’s enter my reality. Let’s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.
> 
> To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.
> 
> When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don’t worry about it, it’s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what’s the difference, it’s not important.
> 
> Then later when I’m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.
> 
> You wonder why I can’t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
> 
> So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don’t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.
> 
> I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
> 
> So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.
> 
> It doesn’t come from jealousy, it doesn’t come from spitefulness, and it doesn’t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn’t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn’t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can’t and the reason I can’t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.​_


...saw the thread where you posted the above. It's WONDERFUL ...and I will be using 99% of it in one manner or another to get some answers from her. I cannot ....do not deserve to ..live in the grip of unknowing pain that I have endured for 17 years. I'm 52 years old ...I want to know what happened ...if it hurts so be it ...but my vivid imagination needs to be put to rest.


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## 3putt

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...saw the thread where you posted the above. It's WONDERFUL ...and I will be using 99% of it in one manner or another to get some answers from her. I cannot ....do not deserve to ..live in the grip of unknowing pain that I have endured for 17 years. I'm 52 years old ...I want to know what happened ...if it hurts so be it ...but my vivid imagination needs to be put to rest.


Oops, I didn't see that WK had posted the same letter.

Mea Culpa


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## Hurtin_Still

3putt said:


> Oops, I didn't see that WK had posted the same letter.
> 
> Mea Culpa



....more than one person having great information / input is definitely not a bad thing. My gracious thanks to one & all...


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## carmen ohio

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....does it ever make sense, or serve a purpose, to never want to replicate, duplicate, perform, act out ...etc ...in any manner, way, form that to other POS did with your wife, partner, etc?
> 
> ...after 17 years, the anger about my wife's (supposed) one nighter with someone else finally boiled over. Before you look twice...yes, I said 17 years. We have been together ever since that "indiscretion" ...and I took a path to reconciliation. But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name ...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.
> 
> ...this all has been brought to the front burner by:
> 
> 1: My lack of trust in her (she played the trust card in our marriage ...and it's been in the discard pile ever since.)
> 
> 2: She's planned a 5 night getaway in Fla with 5 of her HS girlfriends ...which ...brings to a boil issue #1.
> 
> My anger lately has been so off the charts that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long. The ultimatum was basically, get help ...stop ...fix this ...or I'm leaving to get an apartment ...taking daughter(s) .[one is 17, the other 23].
> 
> ....let's start with this ...I want to be head over heals in love with her. It physically hurts to deal with the emotion associated with the thought of another guy touching her. I'm probably shortening my lifespan for enduring this level of hurt and the affiliated hostility. It's probably not a good thing either that in lieu of having "real meds" ...I prefer to have a few shots of bourbon every so often to numb the pain.
> 
> ...we had a LONG talk about this today ...because she wouldn't get out of my face until we did. And as such, I got more and more angry with her that ...for lack of a better way of saying it ....she just wouldn't let me be angry because if was affecting her.
> 
> ....I spilled my guts again ...and I demanded answers. I wanted to know what this other guys name was, where he lived, etc. Her answer, "_does it really matter 17 years later"? _ I did the whole explanation to her about what SHOULD have happened back then on D-Day ...including disclosure, details, names, addresses, phone numbers, no contact statements...etc. _(too bad TAM didn't exist then)_. She remained clueless ...thinking ."it's over...let's move on".
> 
> ...I told her ..."_you and I were the only people that each of us had ever slept with ...and you told me that you you had to love someone in order to sleep with them_"...." _what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"?_ She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words. 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her.
> 
> ....so the question I have for those that have stayed with a wayward spouse, "are you afraid to say or do anything that will remind you partner of the other man/woman".
> 
> ...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.


Dear Hurtin_Still,

I read your other threads and, sadly, I conclude that your situation is hopeless. Not because of your WW, as bad as she is, but because of you.

You are a classic example of a passive-aggressiveness person. For 17 years, you have been unable to confront your WW, demand that she meet your needs and leave her if she doesn't. Now it all boils over but why should she respond any differently? You've been here before and always backed down. She expects you to again (as do I).

If you really want to make some progress and finally have some peace, do it differently this time. Go to counseling, get your anger under control and then sit her down some night and _calmly_ say to her, "Dear, thank you for insisting that I get counseling. It's done me a world of good. For one thing, I realize now that I have wasted 30 years of my life with you. So I've decided to leave you." Then actually leave her, get a divorce and start enjoying life again.

Nothing short of this will solve your problem. As long as you live with your WW, you will be miserable. She's a witch.

Do you want to be miserable for the rest of your life or don't you and, if you don't, do you have the courage to do something about it?

I'm betting you don't but I'm hoping you do.


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## MattMatt

I did not want any details. None.


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## AlphaHalf

Personally I would never be able to attempt to reconcile unless I knew who the other man was. Her not telling you is saying " F$%k how you feel, just deal with it". So NO, you are not crazy for wanting to know. You don't know if its a relative, a friend or a neighbor. How does she expect you to have closure? She doesn't care, she just wants to rugsweep.

You damn sure know that if the roles where reversed she would want to know.


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## Machiavelli

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...saw the thread where you posted the above. It's WONDERFUL ...and I will be using 99% of it in one manner or another to get some answers from her. I cannot ....do not deserve to ..live in the grip of unknowing pain that I have endured for 17 years. I'm 52 years old ...I want to know what happened ...if it hurts so be it ...but my vivid imagination needs to be put to rest.


Age 52? Why, you're a spring chicken. Why waste anymore time on a woman who has zero respect or concern for you? I assure you, if you get in shape and think young, you'll be pulling nice 40 year olds in no time. That's called "robbing the cradle." 

Think about it.


----------



## Machiavelli

Hurtin_Still said:


> . _what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"?_ *She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words.* 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her.


This just came out in today's conversation?



SomedayDig said:


> "I want you". F*ck, man...that hits so close to home with my own wife's commentary regarding her xOM.


It's the access code man. Just punch in the number in the right sequence and her "gait" (sic) swings open.


----------



## SomedayDig

Machiavelli said:


> It's the access code man. Just punch in the number in the right sequence and her "gait" (sic) swings open.


LMAO...you have a great way with words, Mach. That's what I really like when I read you!

You're absolutely correct. When the WS is primed to accept those kinds of compliments, there is nothing more powerful than a few choice words.


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## Machiavelli

SomedayDig said:


> LMAO...you have a great way with words, Mach. That's what I really like when I read you!
> 
> You're absolutely correct. When the WS is primed to accept those kinds of compliments, there is nothing more powerful than a few choice words.


And the scary thing about my theory is that on any other day, some other mix of female hormones in a slightly different proportion, and it might have been "ACCESS DENIED!" Which is why you see D-bags just keep hitting that keypad week after week.


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## bryanp

Why should she tell you anything since clearly there was absolutely no consequences to her actions. If the roles were reversed do you think she would have been so forgiving and accepting as you have been?

Now she is making fun of you for asking questions you had a right to know. She does not take this seriously because she knew she could get away with it and you would still be with her. I suggest that you contact an attorney to understand your options. When you inform your wife that this is deal breaker she will talk plenty.
Unless there are consequences to her refusing to be truthful to you then you are wasting your time asking her.


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## still.hurting

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....does it ever make sense, or serve a purpose, to never want to replicate, duplicate, perform, act out ...etc ...in any manner, way, form that to other POS did with your wife, partner, etc?
> 
> ...after 17 years, the anger about my wife's (supposed) one nighter with someone else finally boiled over. Before you look twice...yes, I said 17 years. We have been together ever since that "indiscretion" ...and I took a path to reconciliation. But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name ...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.
> 
> ...this all has been brought to the front burner by:
> 
> 1: My lack of trust in her (she played the trust card in our marriage ...and it's been in the discard pile ever since.)
> 
> 2: She's planned a 5 night getaway in Fla with 5 of her HS girlfriends ...which ...brings to a boil issue #1.
> 
> My anger lately has been so off the charts that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long. The ultimatum was basically, get help ...stop ...fix this ...or I'm leaving to get an apartment ...taking daughter(s) .[one is 17, the other 23].
> 
> ....let's start with this ...I want to be head over heals in love with her. It physically hurts to deal with the emotion associated with the thought of another guy touching her. I'm probably shortening my lifespan for enduring this level of hurt and the affiliated hostility. It's probably not a good thing either that in lieu of having "real meds" ...I prefer to have a few shots of bourbon every so often to numb the pain.
> 
> ...we had a LONG talk about this today ...because she wouldn't get out of my face until we did. And as such, I got more and more angry with her that ...for lack of a better way of saying it ....she just wouldn't let me be angry because if was affecting her.
> 
> ....I spilled my guts again ...and I demanded answers. I wanted to know what this other guys name was, where he lived, etc. Her answer, "_does it really matter 17 years later"? _ I did the whole explanation to her about what SHOULD have happened back then on D-Day ...including disclosure, details, names, addresses, phone numbers, no contact statements...etc. _(too bad TAM didn't exist then)_. She remained clueless ...thinking ."it's over...let's move on".
> 
> ...I told her ..."_you and I were the only people that each of us had ever slept with ...and you told me that you you had to love someone in order to sleep with them_"...." _what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"?_ She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words. 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her.
> 
> ....so the question I have for those that have stayed with a wayward spouse, "are you afraid to say or do anything that will remind you partner of the other man/woman".
> 
> ...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.



17 years later and IMO, I believe you are still haunted by your wides betrayal because you never got closure from the events. Your mind must have been imagining maybe the worse when really all you really needed to hear is the truth to set your mind free? 
Could you sit down with your wife and explain why after all these years that you just need to know in order to get closer to closure? Reasure her that you love her and still want to be with her and help her understand when you sweep things/emotions under the rug that they are sure to surface regardless of how long it has been.

Sounds like you definitely need to hear what happened to heal and move forward. My MC suggested to me to write down everything I thought I needed from my H so I could heal, this helped but I found that my needs changed over time too and I and my MC had to explain that to my H as well.

You of all people should know that R is hard, you have put in so much hard work since Dday (I'm assuming so cause you have still been together for 17 years) she must have a lot of love for you too or she just wouldn't be there...

To me it sounds like she is scared to talk or be reminded about the ugly past, she might believe she is a completely different person to what she was back then and hopefully thinking that your relationship is completely different now (better) to what it was then too, SO, I would have the talk of how important it is for you to know certain things so you can heal...

Good luck to you, I hope you handle hearing what she has to tell you well, if she tells you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NewM

Ultimatum should go the other way with you telling her that she has to tell you whatever you want or you will divorce her instead of her divorcing you if you don't get over it.

You won't get any details unless you are prepared to divorce her over it.If you accept her not giving you any details again,you will continue to be angry and in the end she will divorce you so the end result is same.


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## Granny7

Hurtin still,

I'm so sorry to hear about your awful situation, as I'm in the same kind also. I got up from bed at 3:30 as I was laying in my own bed, as I moved out of our room a couple months ago as I just didn't want to sleep with him anymore. He wasn't helping me to find answer's that he never gave to me over 25 yrs. ago. I was laying there, couldn't sleep and crying and thinking to myself, "Life shouldn't be this way." It seems like I'm doing all the suffering and I was the almost perfect wife. I didn't get them back then, decided to move on after 5 yrs. of therapy and now it's all back again to haunt me. Here is my original post below that I moved to another section, but I can't remember the name right now. I also have another thread going, titled, "Help, I just don't know if I can deal with this anymore!" or something close to that.

Your message was sent to me to read, as this person couldn't believe how our stories were so alike. I hope that we can help each other. I'm at the end of my rope, very depressed and finally started on a anti-depressant 5 days ago, that's how bad it got. I can't sleep, get out of the house, am loosing half my hair and rubbing the rest of it out. I'm looking for a new psychologist now as my CS has finally decided to work on the marriage this past yr. but now I don't know if it's to late as I feel nothing anymore. It's just hard to give up 51 yrs. of marriage at 69 yrs. of ago. 

Anyway, I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this. Please feel free to PM me if you like and go and read my thread's also, maybe it will help. I will respond more to your's, hopefully later today as I'm pretty upset right now and need to rest to shut down.

Blessings to you and my original story is posted here:


Affair Coming Back To Haunt Me 25 Years Later?
My D-day was 11/6/87, when I received a letter from the OWH, who also sent 4 love letters my CH had sent to the OW on her birthday for the 3 yr. affair. Shock doesn't even describe how I felt, when I thought we had a wonderful 25 yr. marriage, were high school sweethearts, got married at 18 and worked our way up the corporate ladder, after starting our marriage with $90.

We or I should say "I" went to 5 yrs. of counseling, Retro weekends, etc., but he didn't really participate with me. We had 3 children at home, I was 40 yrs. old, no college experience and if I had left, it would have been a hardship for me and the children and I was trying to make it work. I based my staying on the knowledge that it was an emotional affair that just included lunch's for a year. I was so glad (even though he betrayed me, I felt I could get though that) as long as their was no sex and it hadn't lasted any longer and he didn't love her. 

If I had know the whole truth at the very beginning, he would have been out the door, as he knew my feelings about affairs, but it took me searching through receipts, etc. to find out the truth. I had 5 D-days during this process, so I was more crushed each time. 
I also had a stage 3 Melanoma, very extensive surgery 6 weeks after I found out about the affair, which that set me back 3 months. That's when I started doing some research. He would still lie when confronted, even to our priest, our children and they were adults. I had to even see the OW to verify things he would tell me that didn't add up and that was degrading sitting in my car with her. Then who's to say that she wasn't lying also.

I started IC before I knew about all the lies to try and save the marriage, which is what he should have been doing. I think our marriage wouldn't be in the place it's in now if he had went. I still loved him and tried to work it out, much more than he did. He continued drinking to much at social functions, ignoring me and never acted remorseful. We got through the next 20 yrs. of marriage, the first 5 being the worse, without killing each other and I think it had to do with our grandchildren being born 6 months after the Affair. He still continued to feel that he had to dance with the ladies at conventions, drink to much socially no matter what I would say. I left him twice during those 25 yrs. due to his drinking and behavior also. 

He finally quit drinking, after 35 yrs. this past Christmas a year ago, is less controlling, trying to make the marriage work finally. All the things he should have done 25 yrs. ago. I am angry, hurt, depressed, sad and don't know what to do. I am looking for the 5th. marriage counselor, for myself and us, which he has agreed to go to this time and work with them. I just can't seem to find any feelings for him anymore. I don't even like looking at him, nor want him to touch me, which is sad as I couldn't have loved or been more proud of him before the A. He had my full support, affection, love, help, sex, you name it and I gave it to him. But he did all the taking and me the giving, now that I look back on it. When I think to even before the A, he did the same thing, even with our children.

I look at myself now at 69, still look pretty good, but have lost a lot of my hair, probably due to stress, hormones and thyroid, so I sure don't feel like I look pretty anymore. I don't care if I do for him or not, he sure didn't notice how good I looked when I was 40, ignored me, focused on his affair partner, even lost 15 lbs. for her. Those good years aren't here anymore. Now I have to wear a wig to even look pretty and I feel a lot of my hair loss is due to stress. Where was he when I did look good, the compliments, me in the prime of my life and I loved him so much and was so happy, except when he would drink and try and control me. 

That sure isn't happening anymore. During the past 4 yrs., with the last one being the worse, I have reevaluated my life and really see what kind of person he truly is, not the man that I thought I married that would cherish me, like I did him. I put up with so much all those years, not being a good Father, the drinking, controlling everything, not attentive enough to end up at 69 not sure if I love him or not and I don't know what to do. 

This past year has me asking him questions about the affair that he never answered before, I had to get some of the answers from the OW, as all he did was lie or say nothing or get very angry. He says that he has put it out of his mind, he doesn't remember much of what really happened, why he did what he did and now he regrets it, he's changed! So why can't I just move on, enjoy him as this new person, enjoy our life and stop living in the past that can't be changed? 

I told him that until I know for sure that he didn't truly have sex with her, maybe because he was unable to? But did he try and did he want to and what else did they do in that bed or hotel rooms during those 3 weekends? I need the answers to these questions before I can make any decision to move on with this marriage.

Now he is showing regret and remorse, but where was it 25 yrs. ago if he truly loved me? I don't even know if he knows what that word means? He has a Narcisstic personality and is very selfish. I just don't know what to do, I found some of the love for 20 yrs. after the affair and don't know what caused it to leave me again? I don't want to connect with him, don't want him to see me undressed, etc., just like I felt after discovering the A. 

I feel that he is still lying about things and he doesn't want to discuss it anymore. Even when we have, it's like pulling teeth to get answers and so many don't make sense. I have a feeling that even with all the therapy years ago, my mind couldn't handle what he did and I suppressed it and now it's all come back worse than before. The panic attacks are back, along with the depression and they are worse just like they were after discovering the A. I am still looking for that counselor that can help us make it, if that's possible. Any suggestions are surely welcome, as we are both miserable.

Granny7


----------



## Granny7

3putt said:


> Print this off and leave it for her to find. Maybe this will help her understand why you can't move forward and simply forgive and forget. You could modify it to meet your needs now as it has been 17 years since this happened.
> 
> I haven't found anyone that knows the letter's true origin, but that doesn't really matter at this point. Your goal is to make her understand why you need the "pieces of the puzzle".
> 
> You'll understand why I put that one phrase in quotations in a minute.


Hurtin still,

Definitely give her "Joseph's Letter". I gave it to my CH, he read it, but I still get nothing but, I can't remember. That's why I stress to anyone going through an affair to get all the information you can while it's fresh in their minds, not that they are going to give it to you, mind sure didn't and he didn't show much remorse either.

You do have a right to demand answer's to your questions, no matter how long ago it's been. I have so many unanswered, so the puzzle is still so blank.

Granny7


----------



## AngryandUsed

Buddy,

I know what you exactly feel. I went through this. Almost 90%.

When did you come to know of her A? Was it voluntarily revealed?

First and foremost enemy in my case was: Anger.

I could have got the info had it not been for anger. It spoiled her willingness. I read that you also have the same situation. She wants you to move on. She says she does not want to see you hurt!

Wait. Without full details, how can you move on? It hurts as if the A happened now.

You have love for her and she counts the mealticket and the security of remaining married with you.

You should grow stronger and stronger and in that growing she will start revealing full truth and by part by part. You need patience.

Patience is hard to come.

As you hear the truth, it will hurt......

I know.


----------



## Granny7

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....does it ever make sense, or serve a purpose, to never want to replicate, duplicate, perform, act out ...etc ...in any manner, way, form that to other POS did with your wife, partner, etc?
> 
> ...after 17 years, the anger about my wife's (supposed) one nighter with someone else finally boiled over. Before you look twice...yes, I said 17 years. We have been together ever since that "indiscretion" ...and I took a path to reconciliation. But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name ...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.
> 
> ...this all has been brought to the front burner by:
> 
> 1: My lack of trust in her (she played the trust card in our marriage ...and it's been in the discard pile ever since.)
> 
> 2: She's planned a 5 night getaway in Fla with 5 of her HS girlfriends ...which ...brings to a boil issue #1.
> 
> My anger lately has been so off the charts that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long. The ultimatum was basically, get help ...stop ...fix this ...or I'm leaving to get an apartment ...taking daughter(s) .[one is 17, the other 23].
> 
> ....let's start with this ...I want to be head over heals in love with her. It physically hurts to deal with the emotion associated with the thought of another guy touching her. I'm probably shortening my lifespan for enduring this level of hurt and the affiliated hostility. It's probably not a good thing either that in lieu of having "real meds" ...I prefer to have a few shots of bourbon every so often to numb the pain.
> 
> ...we had a LONG talk about this today ...because she wouldn't get out of my face until we did. And as such, I got more and more angry with her that ...for lack of a better way of saying it ....she just wouldn't let me be angry because if was affecting her.
> 
> ....I spilled my guts again ...and I demanded answers. I wanted to know what this other guys name was, where he lived, etc. Her answer, "_does it really matter 17 years later"? _ I did the whole explanation to her about what SHOULD have happened back then on D-Day ...including disclosure, details, names, addresses, phone numbers, no contact statements...etc. _(too bad TAM didn't exist then)_. She remained clueless ...thinking ."it's over...let's move on".
> 
> ...I told her ..."_you and I were the only people that each of us had ever slept with ...and you told me that you you had to love someone in order to sleep with them_"...." _what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"?_ She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words. 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her.
> 
> ....so the question I have for those that have stayed with a wayward spouse, "are you afraid to say or do anything that will remind you partner of the other man/woman".
> 
> ...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.


Hurtin still,
First of all, I think some of the comments made on here, knocking you down have been cruel. You came here for support, not for someone to imply that you didn't have any b++ls and that's not something I ever say.

It looks like you stayed in the marriage for the same reason I did, you still loved her and you wanted to make the marriage work. Neither of our spouse's cooperated, you had children to consider and so did I, plus an investment of 25 yrs. It's not always as easy as it sounds at the time, shock, hurt, anger all enter's into your thinking and like you I decided to "forgive." I did it without knowing the truth and now it's all come back to haunt me. That is not unusual by the way. It's called PTSD!

In regards to your wife and your question's. No, I'm not afraid to say or ask anything in regards to the OW. That's my right and your's also. My H is ready now to go to counseling, he went before but in body only, so he's working on keeping us together. But the one thing he isn't giving me is the answer's to so many of my questions. Your wife shouldn't have that problem, if it was a one night stand, at least that is what I got from it. It should take nothing for her to tell you and if she loved you enough she would see you suffering and care enough. My H has changed a lot this past 6 months, less controlling, stopped drinking 18 months ago, after 35 yrs. of it, helpful. But he hasn't given me the thing I want the most, the details, time line, why if he loved me? It's killing me inside, my 3 oldest children know about the affair and my 2 daughter's are accusing me of breaking up the family by bringing up something that happened almost 30 yrs. ago. If I forgave him then, why am I bringing it up now? Because he hasn't treated me the best in these past 25 yrs. and the past 4 yrs. have been the worse due to different reasons that you will see by reading my first post or some of the other's. But even with those, their is no excuse if you really love someone and it sounds like your wife loves herself more. Thats why it all came back in full force, why did I stay, I should have divorced him 30 yrs. ago at 40 yrs. You are still younger than me and will probably not having any trouble, when you get ready, to marry again. I'm 69, not sure if I would ever get married again?

I agree with some of the things that have been suggested on here. If it was me, she wouldn't give me an ultimatum. Tell her to take the girls and leave, she might start to open her mouth. Give that some thought, however, as that's a big decision. After reading some of the letter's that was suggested that you give her to read (hopefully she will) then see if she will talk. If not, their has to be an ultimatum given by you if you want the answers. It's now or never or else you will never have any peace within yourself. For her to not even tell you the name of the man, which you should have insisted upon at the beginning, is unreal. She should do it now, along with the details if that is what you are asking for. Like some mentioned, their has to be consequences or she will continue to dominate and walk all over you and that gives her the power and that's not acceptable. Draw that line in the sand, tell her exactly what you need, let her know what you will do if she doesn't do it and stick to it. Write down on a piece of paper all your questions and give her a time limit to answer your questions, then be prepared to follow through.

Good luck, Granny7


----------



## Pault

Well S.H
Many people do not realise that the issues involved in a wayward partners activities whether its a one off or months of is in effect a trauma. Its the effct of shock on the system. People who suffer trauma in other of lifes avenues have to obtain some kind of councilling. Those that suffer it in a marridge are not routineky seen as sufferers, unlike car accident victims etc. 
The fact that you have been told of something by your W that has crushed you, has come left of filed and caught you unaware and unprepared needs to have the cause confronted. In the past 17 years I suspect that you have run and re-run the situation in your head, pulling together assumptions of who the guy was, do you know him , is he married, how did they get to the point of bedroom fun, where was this, did she enjoy it more than you, do the same things etc. These "picutres" will re-run for ever and a day until something/one helps you break the cycle. The letter posted is a great idea. You need to get the message over that, yes W you can move on because you know whats happened, I cannot because your still concealing it after all this time and you W would rather hide things than admit these. Until she talsk and replies as often as you need to clear the pictures in your head then it isnt going to go away. YOU ARE NOT SICK. This is very much a natural reaction to something traumatic which has deeply effected you


----------



## RWB

17 years...

and she is still doing the "turn-around"... "You are sick, its been 17 years, you need to see a doctor, let it go, move on, does it really matter now, I said I'm sorry... what more can I do now, what good will it serve now."

Sound familiar? The reality is there was always much more than a ONS. The lies are always deeper. She has buried it and obliviously can live without conscience or consequences.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Quote:


> Originally Posted by Hurtin_Still View Post
> . what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"? She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words. 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This just came out in today's conversation?
Click to expand...

....yes ...it took +17 years to hear that. I think that a lot more information will be forthcoming. The "talk" we had was a bit more forceful on my end than usual (not violent..just persistent). I wasn't taking no for an answer. I figured that ...I've been living in a world of pain for +17 years ...based on what I don't know. If I'm going to hurt ...which I'm sure I will ...it's better that it's due to real information.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Machiavelli said:


> Age 52? Why, you're a spring chicken. Why waste anymore time on a woman who has zero respect or concern for you? I assure you, if you get in shape and think young, you'll be pulling nice 40 year olds in no time. That's called "robbing the cradle."
> 
> Think about it.



....well ...the "think young" angle I have down to a science ...hell, I'm still waiting for puberty to end.


----------



## lordmayhem

RWB said:


> 17 years...
> 
> and she is still doing the "turn-around"... "You are sick, its been 17 years, you need to see a doctor, let it go, move on, does it really matter now, I said I'm sorry... what more can I do now, what good will it serve now."
> 
> Sound familiar? The reality is there was always much more than a ONS. The lies are always deeper. She has buried it and obliviously can live without conscience or consequences.


:iagree:

There's more to it because she refuses to give the man's name after an ONS. After all, what could it hurt now 17 years later? My theory is that the reason *she refuses to give up the name is because it more than a ONS*. 

Trickle Truth, that's my feeling on this. And she's giving him the ultimatum? The whole "Get Over It Already", routine and wants him to sweep it under the rug.

We see what sweeping it under the rug gets you: Resentment festers and builds until it consumes you. That's why you end up tripping over that lump in the rug when you sweep things under it.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

bryanp said:


> Why should she tell you anything since clearly there was absolutely no consequences to her actions. If the roles were reversed do you think she would have been so forgiving and accepting as you have been?
> 
> Now she is making fun of you for asking questions you had a right to know. She does not take this seriously because she knew she could get away with it and you would still be with her. I suggest that you contact an attorney to understand your options. When you inform your wife that this is deal breaker she will talk plenty.
> Unless there are consequences to her refusing to be truthful to you then you are wasting your time asking her.


...I agree ...she, in particular, would not be forgiving. She's a person with very low self-esteem (_...and that all played into her 'one-nighter' ...because it seems that all she was seeking was validation of her worth, attractiveness, etc because she wasn't getting it from me due to the constant bickering that was going on back then_). 

....had I been the one to cheat on her ...I think we'd not be currently married. She's a person that is irked by the fact that I occasionally communicate with a high-school girlfriend (first real romance when I was 16 ...but a real close friend before any dating occurred). I know that it bothers her, but it's all very innocent ...and I've even visited her when I was on business in her neck of the woods, had dinner at her house (she's married and I was invited by her husband).

.....I've learned a lot here ...I've learned that marital problems exist ...and that both parties are likely at fault and need to own some blame. But I also learned that her cheating ...her actions ...are not / were not ...my fault. And I'm slowly feeling better about ME with regards to that. And I think that she finally had a light-bulb go off yesterday and realize that too and may be willing to talk more because she sees that I am not willing to suffer needlessly in a vacuum of my own imagination.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

still.hurting said:


> 17 years later and IMO, I believe you are still haunted by your wifes betrayal because you never got closure from the events. Your mind must have been imagining maybe the worse when really all you really needed to hear is the truth to set your mind free?
> Could you sit down with your wife and explain why after all these years that you just need to know in order to get closer to closure? Reassure her that you love her and still want to be with her and help her understand when you sweep things/emotions under the rug that they are sure to surface regardless of how long it has been.
> 
> Sounds like you definitely need to hear what happened to heal and move forward. My MC suggested to me to write down everything I thought I needed from my H so I could heal, this helped but I found that my needs changed over time too and I and my MC had to explain that to my H as well.
> 
> You of all people should know that R is hard, you have put in so much hard work since Dday (I'm assuming so cause you have still been together for 17 years) she must have a lot of love for you too or she just wouldn't be there...
> 
> *To me it sounds like she is scared to talk or be reminded about the ugly past, she might believe she is a completely different person to what she was back then and hopefully thinking that your relationship is completely different now (better) to what it was then too, SO, I would have the talk of how important it is for you to know certain things so you can heal...*
> 
> Good luck to you, I hope you handle hearing what she has to tell you well, if she tells you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



.....I agree with your take on this, in particular the section (above) that I highlighted in BOLD. It's been mentioned here that she's never been made to deal with consequences of her actions. And, that is largely true ...and in my opinion, she's never been made to "suffer" for lack of a better word. Maybe I'm wrong (*tell me if I am ...it's okay*) ...but I somehow need(ed) to have her hurt as bad as I do. It sounds cruel ...and my wife will say that if that's the way I feel about her ...then I don't really love her and we have no place being together. 

As you mentioned, she may be scared to really confront her action ...and as 'meaningless" as she thinks it is in the grand scheme of life ...she may actually see how devastating it truly was / is to me.


----------



## Idyit

Not to throw fuel on the fire but I noticed that the affair and age of your daughter coincide at 17 years.


----------



## tom67

I would tell her she is going for a polygraph test and I would DNA test your kid also just to show what you think of her word which right now isn't much.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

AngryandUsed said:


> Buddy,
> 
> I know what you exactly feel. I went through this. Almost 90%.
> 
> When did you come to know of her A? Was it voluntarily revealed?
> 
> First and foremost enemy in my case was: Anger.
> 
> I could have got the info had it not been for anger. It spoiled her willingness. I read that you also have the same situation. She wants you to move on. She says she does not want to see you hurt!
> 
> Wait. Without full details, how can you move on? It hurts as if the A happened now.
> 
> You have love for her and she counts the mealticket and the security of remaining married with you.
> 
> You should grow stronger and stronger and in that growing she will start revealing full truth and by part by part. You need patience.
> 
> Patience is hard to come.
> 
> As you hear the truth, it will hurt......
> 
> I know.



.....one thing I'm real good at ..is dealing with pain. So that'll be a breeze ...as long as the pain is due to "real world" occurrences, and not what I imagine in my mind.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Idyit said:


> Not to throw fuel on the fire but I noticed that the affair and age of your daughter coincide at 17 years.


...the Exxon Valdez of fuel is on that fire and currently burning.

....you are correct to assume what you did ...as do I. The A supposedly occurred during a week when (at a MC suggestion) ....we have a 'trial separation" just to let stuff cool off. At that session when it was suggested, and I agreed to it, I made it known that this was to be a "trial" ...nothing legal , we're still married ...and that there will be no seeing other persons. My wife said she wasn't agreeing to anything like that. 

...during the "separation" (1 week long was all it was) I was picking up some stuff, clothes, from our house (I was staying at my parents) ...and my wife and I were talking and it was revealed to me that she slept with someone else (_my wife had been drinking, got emotional, and that's probably the only reason it was revealed to me_). I truly believe that she slept with this person at least 2 weeks before the separation ...because I believe that she not agree to my conditions because she had already broken them.

....skip ahead ...I'm back in the house at my wife's request. We go into the "honeymoon phase" ...and shortly thereafter find that she's pregnant. Mind you, it was unprotected sex on our part. But, I, of course assumed the worst ...and when I really look at the "calendar" ...9 months would have been almost exactly to the span from where my daughter was born and my wife slept with this other POS. My wife, to this day cannot tell me if the other guy had a condom on. 

...my daughter does not resemble me in the slightest ...is blonde (as was the other guy ...that's all the info I ever got from her about him)...and although there are some blondes in my family ....I'm not one of them ...there are none in my wife's family. 

......is there a possibility that our daughter is "mine" ....yes. Is there a possibility that she's not ....yes. Does it kill my heart to think about it ...yes. For many reasons .....but, I will look anyone in the face and tell them that I have not loved my daughter any less than any of my other kids. In fact I can honestly say that I've been there for her more than I was with the first two ...I've tried so much harder ...as if to never let on that anything was 'different' about her. She a magnificent kid ....extremely talented, smart, beautiful. And I will never destroy that with any of my inner fears or anger. As a father ...you want to feel that if you have a gifted child ...that you somehow, through genetics ...may have had something to do with it. I don't have that ...but I will never let on to her about what might or might not be.


----------



## lordmayhem

Hurtin_Still said:


> It sounds cruel ...and my wife will say that if that's the way I feel about her ...then I don't really love her and we have no place being together.


If she tells you that, then what does that say about the value she places in you and your marriage? *Why won't she give you the info that you need to heal?* 

Tell me, who was the one who cheated? Why are you walking on eggshells around her about this? I too got the trickle truth at first, and we're going on 24 years this year. If my fWW refused to give me the OM's name, I told her straight up she can get the frak out of the house and I will use the mortgage money and buy her plane ticket to the OM right then and there. 

OR

You can do what you've been doing and continue to let your resentment build up and eat you alive. It's your choice, your marriage, and your life. So far it hasn't worked very well for you.


----------



## warlock07

Are you nuts ? She(your daughter) will need to know the paternity for medical reasons. You will still be the father of that girl. And based on what you posted, lots of skulls to be dug up..her story follows the cheater script to the T. 

Get a paternity test. Did you ever discuss the paternity issue with your wife ?


----------



## The bishop

Sorry... someone already posted


----------



## warlock07

> My wife, to this day cannot tell me if the other guy had a condom on.


She chooses not to.


----------



## warlock07

Tell her that you will be getting a paternity test regardless and if she has any more secrets left, now is a good time to get them out. Offer an incentive of not telling the rest of the family(hers and yours) that you are nt the biological father is if she comes clean on her own.(I bet you never exposed the affair)


----------



## lordmayhem

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...the Exxon Valdez of fuel is on that fire and currently burning.
> 
> ....you are correct to assume what you did ...as do I. The A supposedly occurred during a week when (*at a MC suggestion*) ....we have a 'trial separation" just to let stuff cool off. At that session when it was suggested, and I agreed to it, I made it known that this was to be a "trial" ...nothing legal , we're still married ...and that there will be no seeing other persons. *My wife said she wasn't agreeing to anything like that*.


Yet another idiot MC. There's a lot of them out there. 

And your wife was not agreeing to exclusivity while separated because something was already going on. 



Hurtin_Still said:


> ...during the "separation" (1 week long was all it was) I was picking up some stuff, clothes, from our house (I was staying at my parents) ...and my wife and I were talking and it was revealed to me that she slept with someone else (_my wife had been drinking, got emotional, and that's probably the only reason it was revealed to me_). *I truly believe that she slept with this person at least 2 weeks before the separation ...because I believe that she not agree to my conditions because she had already broken them.*


So you do suspect she was having an affair. I bet your marital problems stemmed from this possible affair. I get she eagerly agreed to this trial separation because she was in the affair. A trial separation in these cases means she wants to try out the OM without interference from you. This is why we advise BSs here NOT to move out, not to have trial separations because a trial separation helps the affair partners go deeper into their affair.



Hurtin_Still said:


> ....*skip ahead ...I'm back in the house at my wife's request*. We go into the "*honeymoon phase*" ...and shortly thereafter find that she's pregnant. Mind you, it was unprotected sex on our part. But, I, of course assumed the worst ...and *when I really look at the "calendar" ...9 months would have been almost exactly to the span from where my daughter was born and my wife slept with this other POS*. My wife, to this day cannot tell me if the other guy had a condom on.


Ok, she asked you to come home. If she was in an affair, it's because either she dumped the OM or he dumped her. She may have deemed you a better provider than the OM.

Oh, and that honeymoon phase you went thru, that's called *Hysterical Bonding*. 



Hurtin_Still said:


> ...*my daughter does not resemble me in the slightest ...is blonde (as was the other guy ...that's all the info I ever got from her about him)*...and although there are some blondes in my family ....I'm not one of them ...there are none in my wife's family.


OMG. No wonder this is eating you alive. Idyit merely voiced what you've been suspecting. Now I can see why your wife is refusing to give up the name. A secret this devastating would be something she will take to the grave if she can.



Hurtin_Still said:


> ......is there a possibility that our daughter is "mine" ....yes. Is there a possibility that she's not ....yes. Does it kill my heart to think about it ...yes. For many reasons .....but, I will look anyone in the face and tell them that I have not loved my daughter any less than any of my other kids. In fact I can honestly say that I've been there for her more than I was with the first two ...I've tried so much harder ...as if to never let on that anything was 'different' about her. She a magnificent kid ....extremely talented, smart, beautiful. And I will never destroy that with any of my inner fears or anger. As a father ...you want to feel that if you have a gifted child ...that you somehow, through genetics ...may have had something to do with it. I don't have that ...but I will never let on to her about what might or might not be.


Of course she's your daughter, you raised her, loved her all her life. Nothing can change that. But like warlock07 said, she will need to know someday for medical reasons. Yes, this is playing along the classic chapters of the cheaters script exactly to a T.


----------



## tom67

warlock07 said:


> Tell her that you will be getting a paternity test regardless and if she has any more secrets left, now is a good time to get them out. Offer an incentive of not telling the rest of the family(hers and yours) that you are nt the biological father is if she comes clean on her own.(I bet you never exposed the affair)


You know you can't live like this anymore that's why you are here. The kid does need to know for medical reasons it is important.


----------



## Idyit

Hurtin you are a good man for loving your daughter. Determining paternity for you does not seem to be a priority. Protecting her is noble and good.

Food for thought... At 43 years old my SIL was diagnosed with breast cancer and carried the gene BRCA. Normally this would trigger testing for all female siblings and mom. When my wife was told not to worry about it the whole truth came crashing down. SIL was was not conceived by daddy. This was a tough truth to deal with while fighting breast cancer as well.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Idyit said:


> Hurtin you are a good man for loving your daughter. Determining paternity for you does not seem to be a priority. Protecting her is noble and good.
> 
> Food for thought... At 43 years old my SIL was diagnosed with breast cancer and carried the gene BRCA. Normally this would trigger testing for all female siblings and mom. When my wife was told not to worry about it the whole truth came crashing down. SIL was was not conceived by daddy. This was a tough truth to deal with while fighting breast cancer as well.



...please don't think that this (medical reasons, emergency, blood / tissue-organ donation, etc.) hasn't gone thru my mind. I have brought this up to my wife, and she looks at me like I'm out of my mind. I'm of the mind-set and life philosophy, "If it can go wrong ...It will go wrong ...and only to me" .....so I absolutely addressed this with her ...numerous times.


....let me throw something back at you (and others) ....if it's my wife that cheated on me ....why do I feel so ashamed?


----------



## verpin zal

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....why do I feel so ashamed?


Because she doesn't.


----------



## lordmayhem

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....let me throw something back at you (and others) ....if it's my wife that cheated on me ....why do I feel so ashamed?


In what way? Do you feel as if you were the one who cheated? Do you feel ashamed for resenting her all these years? Do you feel ashamed that this happened to you?

I know I felt embarrassed. Embarrassed that I put my fWW up on a pedestal all these years, that she could never do such a thing and was so proud of her. She told me she knew that. I actually felt more embarrassed more than ashamed.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

warlock07 said:


> Tell her that you will be getting a paternity test regardless and if she has any more secrets left, now is a good time to get them out. Offer an incentive of not telling the rest of the family(hers and yours) that you are nt the biological father is if she comes clean on her own.(I bet you never exposed the affair)



....it'd be a good move if only she had any contact with her family, that's been non-existent for many years. And ...I can't reveal any of this to my family. My parents are elderly, have health issues and the last thing that they need is added angst / stress. 

....there are very few persons that know of her actions. Only one or two of my closest friends ...whom I felt would be good to talk to and for some much needed support when I was at wits end dealing with this.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

lordmayhem said:


> In what way? Do you feel as if you were the one who cheated? Do you feel ashamed for resenting her all these years? *Do you feel ashamed that this happened to you?*



....bingo ...I feel "how could this happen to me" ...along with what feels like hundreds of glaring eyes whose stares are boring into my back because I chose to reconcile.


----------



## lordmayhem

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....bingo ...I feel "how could this happen to me" ...along with what feels like hundreds of glaring eyes whose stares are boring into my back because I chose to reconcile.


That's normal then. Have you told your WW this? I told mine, which is why she's so empathetic. If you're not getting empathy for this, then something is wrong, seriously wrong. Which means she's never been truly remorseful for what she did.


----------



## Idyit

Because you're a good man who has honorably loved your wife and children. Yet for 17 years you have had to harbor the burden of this secret, the act, the unknowns and potential consequences.

There are many here who are far more qualified to spell out things like; exposure, 180, Married Man's Sex Life, No More Mr Nice Guy etc. Do something truly different!! These will assist you in where to place responsibility and shame while building you up. 

Shame and blame are not yours to carry.


----------



## mahike

Hey HS, I am sorry your wife is the one with the problem. She should have answered the questions you had 17 years ago. She got away with not having to confess her sins to you. I am sure she does not want to deal with her pain.

I am also quessing there is something else that has brought this to a head, the FL trip but is there anything else. Are you concened something is going on right now?

She needs to answer any questions you have including the details and the guys name if you want them. I am betting it is someone you know and maybe even see today. She is still covering this up.

I would also suggest you both need MC. Until those two things happen I would tell her that the FL trip would be a deal breaker.


----------



## tom67

Swab your d when she is down in fl.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

mahike said:


> Hey HS, I am sorry your wife is the one with the problem. She should have answered the questions you had 17 years ago. She got away with not having to confess her sins to you. I am sure she does not want to deal with her pain.
> 
> I am also quessing there is something else that has brought this to a head, the FL trip but is there anything else. _* Are you concened something is going on right now?*_
> 
> She needs to answer any questions you have including the details and the guys name if you want them. I am betting it is someone you know and maybe even see today. She is still covering this up.
> 
> I would also suggest you both need MC. Until those two things happen I would tell her that the FL trip would be a deal breaker.


...no ...I don't think anything is going on. The more details that I get (little by little) ...the more the puzzle comes together about that ONS. I've told her, however, point blank, that I do not trust her. I told her that she played that card and trust is gone, and that she really didn't do what was necessary to rebuild it. And until that occurs, I will always feel this way (which I may add, is quit a terrible way to feel all the time). 

...btw ...I can guarantee that the other guy would never be anyone I know, because she met him in this little POS bar that I, nor anyone I'd know, or care to know, ever frequented.

....of course that bar is still in this town...and I avoid driving by it like the plague because it's a major trigger.


----------



## Theseus

I greatly sympathize with your situation, but I'm going to give you slightly different advice than most people here. 

17 years. *17 years*!! That's not just a number, that's a long, long time. Some people commit murder and go to jail for less than 17 years. So it's simply too long to hold a grudge about this. You should have either come to terms with this issue long ago, or left your wife. Letting it fester for 17 years is not healthy for you, and letting it go on longer isn't going to do you any good.

You have to honestly ask yourself this question: even if you get all the details, will it really make you feel better? Give you some closure? It might, but probably not much. Counseling/therapy is probably a better option, even at this late point (if you have mentioned that, I apologize, but I didn't see it in the thread). 



Hurtin_Still said:


> ...btw ...I can guarantee that the other guy would never be anyone I know, because she met him in this little POS bar that I, nor anyone I'd know, or care to know, ever frequented.



If she once kept the affair from you, she might not have been truthful about where it happened. 

There may be strong reasons you haven't considered yet about why she doesn't want to tell you who it was. These possibilities come to mind:


She didn't even get his name at the time, and she is ashamed about that

It's someone close to you, like a brother, and she doesn't want a rift in the family

The ONS was with a woman instead of a man and she doesn't want to admit a lesbian affair

The ONS was with a teenage guy below legal age

So I guess what I'm saying is, if she revealed any of the above, could you handle it? Would it make things better or worse?

Now having said all that, I do agree that you have a right to know who it was. My point is, you might not like what you hear. 

I had a couple of affairs about 10 years ago, and my wife and I almost split over it. It took years for things to get better. But today, we are over it. We are so over it, that we even joke about it sometimes (and I am so grateful to her for that). You are way overdue for closure on this.


----------



## Acabado

Theseus said:


> I greatly sympathize with your situation, but I'm going to give you slightly different advice than most people here.
> 
> 17 years. *17 years*!! That's not just a number, that's a long, long time. Some people commit murder and go to jail for less than 17 years. So it's simply too long to hold a grudge about this. You should have either come to terms with this issue long ago, or left your wife. Letting it fester for 17 years is not healthy for you, and letting it go on longer isn't going to do you any good.
> 
> You have to honestly ask yourself this question: even if you get all the details, will it really make you feel better? Give you some closure? It might, but probably not much. Counseling/therapy is probably a better option, even at this late point (if you have mentioned that, I apologize, but I didn't see it in the thread).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she once kept the affair from you, she might not have been truthful about where it happened.
> 
> There may be strong reasons you haven't considered yet about why she doesn't want to tell you who it was. These possibilities come to mind:
> 
> 
> She didn't even get his name at the time, and she is ashamed about that
> 
> It's someone close to you, like a brother, and she doesn't want a rift in the family
> 
> The ONS was with a woman instead of a man and she doesn't want to admit a lesbian affair
> 
> The ONS was with a teenage guy below legal age
> 
> So I guess what I'm saying is, if she revealed any of the above, could you handle it? Would it make things better or worse?
> 
> Now having said all that, I do agree that you have a right to know who it was. My point is, you might not like what you hear.
> 
> *I had a couple of affairs about 10 years ago, and my wife and I almost split over it. It took years for things to get better. But today, we are over it. We are so over it, that we even joke about it sometimes (and I am so grateful to her for that). You are way overdue for closure on this.*


How did you deal with it, did you just rugswept it as OP's wife forced him to do? I asume you helped her with what she needed.
Things are the way they are becasue whatever happened never was dealt propely, because she refused to help him noit becasue there's something wrong in OP.

I find your whole post offensive, specially the lame reasons you are trying to sell about why he should remain in the dark when it's what he craves like oxigen.

I think you mean well, still it's horrible advice.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Theseus said:


> I greatly sympathize with your situation, but I'm going to give you slightly different advice than most people here.
> 
> 17 years. *17 years*!! That's not just a number, that's a long, long time. Some people commit murder and go to jail for less than 17 years. So it's simply too long to hold a grudge about this. You should have either come to terms with this issue long ago, or left your wife. Letting it fester for 17 years is not healthy for you, and letting it go on longer isn't going to do you any good.
> 
> You have to honestly ask yourself this question: even if you get all the details, will it really make you feel better? Give you some closure? It might, but probably not much. Counseling/therapy is probably a better option, even at this late point (if you have mentioned that, I apologize, but I didn't see it in the thread).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she once kept the affair from you, she might not have been truthful about where it happened.
> 
> There may be strong reasons you haven't considered yet about why she doesn't want to tell you who it was. These possibilities come to mind:
> 
> 
> She didn't even get his name at the time, and she is ashamed about that
> 
> It's someone close to you, like a brother, and she doesn't want a rift in the family
> 
> The ONS was with a woman instead of a man and she doesn't want to admit a lesbian affair
> 
> The ONS was with a teenage guy below legal age
> 
> So I guess what I'm saying is, if she revealed any of the above, could you handle it? Would it make things better or worse?
> 
> Now having said all that, I do agree that you have a right to know who it was. My point is, you might not like what you hear.
> 
> I had a couple of affairs about 10 years ago, and my wife and I almost split over it. It took years for things to get better. But today, we are over it. We are so over it, that we even joke about it sometimes (and I am so grateful to her for that). You are way overdue for closure on this.


...I get where you're coming from...and believe me, all the options, scenarios have played through my head a million times. We were in a "strained marriage" at the time, we were 'fighting" a lot, I was not paying attention to her as much as I should have ...and she was going out to this bar with the 'girlfriends" in the development in which we lived as part of escaping the tension in our house. All of them were either unattached or divorced, or in ch!tty marriages, or, single with a few kids from a few different fathers. Not exactly the wholesome type of crowd you might want to affiliate with on a regular ...or for that matter ...any basis. I believe that they egged her on ...and I actually found out that one of these biatches thought it was 'cute' that some guy was hitting on my wife.

...the info I got initially was:


he was younger than me ...but divorced or separated ...blonde ...and just 'different' ...as she put it.

....I don't know what I can handle ...actually. But I suppose that the truth is better than what I can imagine? Perhaps I'm just being an idiot reaching for anything to restore some semblance of normalcy.

...I am now the low self-esteem person. The hardest part of all this ...to me ...is that she was the ONLY person I ever slept with ...ever.(and she had only 'been' with me ...to that point) That being the case...I can only have mind movies of some guy being, better in bed, "sexier", and maybe even "bigger" than me. All that which will lend itself to crushing whatever male ego I had left. I suppose that perhaps that my past sexual 'history' or lack thereof ...is making this just a bit more cumbersome to me than it might be to others in similar situations?


----------



## Theseus

Acabado said:


> How did you deal with it, did you just rugswept it as OP's wife forced him to do? I asume you helped her with what she needed.


I did exactly everything she wanted me to, and then some. I don't want to say more than that here, because I don't want to hijack this thread. 



> Things are the way they are becasue whatever happened never was dealt propely, because she refused to help him noit becasue there's something wrong in OP.


I partially agree, but not entirely. The OP could have done something different about it, namely leave.



> I find your whole post offensive, specially the lame reasons you are trying to sell about why he should remain in the dark when it's what he craves like oxigen.


Maybe you missed where I said, quote: "_*I do agree that you have a right to know who it was. My point is, you might not like what you hear.*_" I didn't say he should remain in the dark!! But there shouldn't be anything offensive for simply warning someone that they might not enjoy hearing the truth.


----------



## Acabado

Theseus. Re read you post. My apologies.

Hurtin_Still, take the read pill. Demand the truth, dea lwith it, get sipport... or get out. But stop hurting. Enough is enough.

EDITED the 1rst line, the apology was meant to Theseus instead of Hurtin_Still.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Acabado said:


> Hurtin_Still. Re read you post. My apologies.
> 
> Hurtin_Still, take the read pill. Demand the truth, dea lwith it, get sipport... or get out. But stop hurting. Enough is enough.


....no need to apologize. There's a huge amount of emotions in here ....and stuff gets said ...for better or worse (but, at least it gets said)

...there's also a huge number of supportive persons with similar life occurrences that lend an open ear when persons like myself just need to vent, spill my guts, or let the raw nerves out to breath a bit.


...I'm working towards putting the pain to rest. My wife has been seeing a therapist for about a year ...and I have been told that she has discussed her ONS with her. She's also been letting the therapist know how angry I've become. I have been told that I too can attend the therapy session with my wife next week to get my side of the mess on the table ...and although reluctantly ...I have agreed to go. I don't know how it will go, what will transpire, what I will say? My wife has had a year to 'establish' her side of the story ...so I don't know if it's a good idea to be there or not ...fearing a 'gang-up' session on me. _(that's why I will drive there myself ...and if I feel like I'm being attacked ...the therapist gets the double-barrel one finger salute and I walk out)_ I had one incompetent MC tell me (us) what to do ...it won't happen again.


----------



## happyman64

Hurtin

Your wife is very selfish.

I am glad she is in therapy because she needs it as much as you do.

Stop feeling ashamed. You love her all these years even though she broke your heart.

And so what if your Dis not biologically yours, you raised her and love her.

I would still want to know if she was bio,logically mine but it would not change the way I felt about her.

But you know what, I think your wife is ashamed. I think deep down she knows how badly she hurt you and is too much a coward to deal with it.

I also think she knows who the father is and it killed something inside.

No matter what you have to heal. 17 years is too long to carry this baggage around in your life.

Good Luck

HM64


----------



## Granny7

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....no need to apologize. There's a huge amount of emotions in here ....and stuff gets said ...for better or worse (but, at least it gets said)
> 
> ...there's also a huge number of supportive persons with similar life occurrences that lend an open ear when persons like myself just need to vent, spill my guts, or let the raw nerves out to breath a bit.
> 
> 
> ...I'm working towards putting the pain to rest. My wife has been seeing a therapist for about a year ...and I have been told that she has discussed her ONS with her. She's also been letting the therapist know how angry I've become. I have been told that I too can attend the therapy session with my wife next week to get my side of the mess on the table ...and although reluctantly ...I have agreed to go. I don't know how it will go, what will transpire, what I will say? My wife has had a year to 'establish' her side of the story ...so I don't know if it's a good idea to be there or not ...fearing a 'gang-up' session on me. _(that's why I will drive there myself ...and if I feel like I'm being attacked ...the therapist gets the double-barrel one finger salute and I walk out)_ I had one incompetent MC tell me (us) what to do ...it won't happen again.


Hurtin still,
I think it's good that your going to this therapist and taking a separate car is great. I can't tell you after our sessions how we would both be so angry at what was said and either not speak or argue all the way home. Stick up for yourself and say how you feel. Best of luck.
Granny7


----------



## still.hurting

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I agree with your take on this, in particular the section (above) that I highlighted in BOLD. It's been mentioned here that she's never been made to deal with consequences of her actions. And, that is largely true ...and in my opinion, she's never been made to "suffer" for lack of a better word. Maybe I'm wrong (*tell me if I am ...it's okay*) ...but I somehow need(ed) to have her hurt as bad as I do. It sounds cruel ...and my wife will say that if that's the way I feel about her ...then I don't really love her and we have no place being together.
> 
> As you mentioned, she may be scared to really confront her action ...and as 'meaningless" as she thinks it is in the grand scheme of life ...she may actually see how devastating it truly was / is to me.


My idea of the WS suffering for their actions is having to 'suck up' their feelings about not wanting to discuss what happened or give answers to what they did. It hurts them and it makes them feel shame and so it should, they caused this to happen and they don't have the right to keep the truth from the BS.
So, IMO, consequences are; the WS doing everything possible for the BS to heal, regardless of how difficult or hurtful or shameful it is for the WS. Consequences of suffering public humiliation, feeling the worse guilt and massive amounts of remorse, feeling scared that they could loose their partner and family, worried about the embarrassment and shame they have brought to their relationship, family and friends...these are all things that WS should feel, especially in the beginning, did she feel or go through anything like this?

I understand how much pain you must be going through for all these years of not knowing certain details of the affair and as you know I believe that you have every right to know. I also believe that one of the consequences that she should face is; if she doesn't tell you certain details that you need to know to heal, then she risks loosing you and getting exposed to family and friends...

Are you going to counseling? Have you got any good hobbies? I personally think the best revenge is making yourself a better person, inside and out... You can't go wrong when you have the best respect for yourself and others, so however you handle talking to your wife and/or dealing with the knowledge that you so desperatly need to know, I'm hoping that you handle everything like a true gentleman -by doing that it should also make her feel worse and not want to attack you, or feel attacked..

Good luck my friend...!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hurtin_Still

happyman64 said:


> Hurtin
> 
> Your wife is very selfish.
> 
> I am glad she is in therapy because she needs it as much as you do.
> 
> *Stop feeling ashamed. You love her all these years even though she broke your heart.*
> 
> And so what if your Dis not biologically yours, you raised her and love her.
> 
> I would still want to know if she was bio,logically mine but it would not change the way I felt about her.
> 
> But you know what, I think your wife is ashamed. I think deep down she knows how badly she hurt you and is too much a coward to deal with it.
> 
> I also think she knows who the father is and it killed something inside.
> 
> No matter what you have to heal. 17 years is too long to carry this baggage around in your life.
> 
> Good Luck
> 
> HM64


.....I definitely want to shake off the feeling of shame. I may be 'old fashioned' in values ...(and what those values are worth in today's society ...I don't know) ....but I sort of want to feel proud ...at least for me ...that I've been a faithful husband.


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## Hurtin_Still

Granny7 said:


> Hurtin still,
> I think it's good that your going to this therapist and taking a separate car is great. I can't tell you after our sessions how we would both be so angry at what was said and either not speak or argue all the way home. Stick up for yourself and say how you feel. Best of luck.
> Granny7


...I too...think it's time to say something in front of a third party (therapist). As I said ...she's had a year to lay out groundwork and her background related to the ONS. I don't think to this day, that she really feels as if she 'cheated'. Her opinion was that we were 'separated' (_even though I believe this happened before I left the house for that week_)...and it only equates to 'sleeping with someone else' and not 'cheating'. If that's the angle I get when at the therapist with her, I will get up and walk out. I will not tolerate someone (especially a therapist) telling me that "it was ONLY sex". I heard that from the first therapist 17 years ago ...and when I think back on it ...I want to strangle her and report her for being incompetent. We'll see what transpires ...but I'll never know until I go.

Thanks for the support .....


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## Hurtin_Still

still.hurting said:


> My idea of the WS suffering for their actions is having to 'suck up' their feelings about not wanting to discuss what happened or give answers to what they did. It hurts them and it makes them feel shame and so it should, they caused this to happen and they don't have the right to keep the truth from the BS.
> So, IMO, consequences are; the WS doing everything possible for the BS to heal, regardless of how difficult or hurtful or shameful it is for the WS. Consequences of suffering public humiliation, feeling the worse guilt and massive amounts of remorse, feeling scared that they could loose their partner and family, worried about the embarrassment and shame they have brought to their relationship, family and friends...these are all things that WS should feel, especially in the beginning, did she feel or go through anything like this?
> 
> I understand how much pain you must be going through for all these years of not knowing certain details of the affair and as you know I believe that you have every right to know. I also believe that one of the consequences that she should face is; if she doesn't tell you certain details that you need to know to heal, then she risks loosing you and getting exposed to family and friends...
> 
> *Are you going to counseling? Have you got any good hobbies? I personally think the best revenge is making yourself a better person, inside and out...* You can't go wrong when you have the best respect for yourself and others, so however you handle talking to your wife and/or dealing with the knowledge that you so desperately need to know, I*'m hoping that you handle everything like a true gentleman -by doing that it should also make her feel worse and not want to attack you, or feel attacked..*
> 
> Good luck my friend...!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


....well, I'll see how the 'joint' session of counseling at the therapist next week ...that will be the barometer to indicate if I continue to go.

I'd like to think I will / have handled this like a 'gentleman'? I'm not perfect ...I get angry (sometimes a lot) but I think a whole bunch of that visually demonstrative anger comes from my years of penned up angst. I've not sought to 'expose' her, I've not let it get in the way of my love for my daughter, I've never been physically abusive towards my wife due to the anger (it's much easier to just have a glass of scotch). 

I want my wife to exhibit more remorse over her actions ....that would be a huge start. I don't care that it's +17 years later. She told me that she did (I can't recall when) say to me, "I'm sorry I hurt you".....but, shouldn't that also include something to the effect of, "I'm sorry for what I did"? It's almost like it feels she is saying, "I did what I did ....so what ....and I'm sorry it bothers you". (_if what I just said makes sense ...let me know. It feels like I expressed it correctly_).


----------



## tom67

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....well, I'll see how the 'joint' session of counseling at the therapist next week ...that will be the barometer to indicate if I continue to go.
> 
> I'd like to think I will / have handled this like a 'gentleman'? I'm not perfect ...I get angry (sometimes a lot) but I think a whole bunch of that visually demonstrative anger comes from my years of penned up angst. I've not sought to 'expose' her, I've not let it get in the way of my love for my daughter, I've never been physically abusive towards my wife due to the anger (it's much easier to just have a glass of scotch).
> 
> I want my wife to exhibit more remorse over her actions ....that would be a huge start. I don't care that it's +17 years later. She told me that she did (I can't recall when) say to me, "I'm sorry I hurt you".....but, shouldn't that also include something to the effect of, "I'm sorry for what I did"? It's almost like it feels she is saying, "I did what I did ....so what ....and I'm sorry it bothers you". (_if what I just said makes sense ...let me know. It feels like I expressed it correctly_).


All the more reason to let the truth set you free and end the suffering DNA the kid and move on from there you are in limbo hEll right now jmo.


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## akashNil

Machiavelli said:


> Age 52? Why, you're a spring chicken. Why waste anymore time on a woman who has zero respect or concern for you? I assure you, if you get in shape and think young, you'll be pulling nice 40 year olds in no time. That's called "robbing the cradle."
> 
> Think about it.


Machiavelli, Thanks .


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## akashNil

warlock07 said:


> She chooses not to.


Your wife is not illiterate. She KNOWS it. Its almost evident that it was unprotected. I am afraid that you are going to miss not only wife, but daughter also. 

Hope the DNA test come out in your favor.


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## happyman64

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I definitely want to shake off the feeling of shame. I may be 'old fashioned' in values ...(and what those values are worth in today's society ...I don't know) ....but I sort of want to feel proud ...at least for me ...that I've been a faithful husband.


Then do it.

You have nothing to be ashamed about.

And it helps you separate yourself from her infidelity.

She has to own it.

A few times on TAM we have seen WW's that are so ashamed about what they did that they cannot be happy, cannot live a full life and slowly destroy everything around them.

Do not let this happen.

HM64


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## Granny7

Hurtin still,

This is Granny7. Did you get a chance to read my long post that I put on here for you? It was in regards to my 25 yrs of not knowing the details either or somethings similar. I was trying to share with you how similar our stories are in hopes of helping you relate to what I've been through also and am still going through it. I hope you did take time to read it, along with another message or two that I sent you.

I'm in a very difficult place myself right now. I've just spiraled down lately and did just start on Zoloft about 6 days ago and I've been trying not to take it for a year. I think I waited to long, so I'll be glad when it sets in. 

What your going through is so similar to mine as my H doesn't want to talk about it and says he can't remember anything. I still don't know if they even had sex yet. It has totally destroyed my life and the not knowing, just like you is so hard to deal with. 

I do hope when you go to your session that if you don't like what she or he is saying, the therapist that is, that you don't storm out. Stay there and stand your ground and speak up for yourself. It all needs to be heard, don't let your anger take over as it won't do you any good and might make your wife feel like she's won again. Just think about it, please? I went through 5 yrs. of therapy, H came but wasn't really there, just his body. He could have learned so much and I think our life could have been so much better these past 25 yrs. 

My cheating H also barely told me that he was sorry. He didn't beg for my forgiveness or go over board in telling me all that he was going to do to make up for it. So, your wife hasn't done enough if that's all that she did. My H wasn't remorseful hardly at all, he was to busy lying, being defensive and pretending that everything was normal. We even went out for our Anniversary 10 days after I found out, really stupid. I think I had one drink, started getting sick to my stomach and told him I didn't want to stay. It was so stupid to go and let him hold my hand at the table like everything was okay. It's amazing all the things we do to keep things normal, isn't it. 

Now like you, I can blow up very easily, but he's worse with it. I don't yell and scream, mine is more controlled but he says so many hurtful things when he is cornered and doesn't like me asking questions. To me, that shows guilt.

Anyway, good luck tomorrow, I pray that it goes well for you.

Granny7


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## Shaggy

Hurting

It's pretty obvious what likely really went on back then.

1. Your wife was having an affair. That why the two of you we're arguing so much then. She was in the fog and was distancing herself from you.

2. She was having regular full on sex with the guy. It's likely someone you know.

3. She pushed for the trial separation to really give being full on with a real trial.

4. She got knocked up by him.

5. She discovered he dumped her like a hot potato because of her being pregnant.

6. She ran back to you as plan B, very scared about having the kid alone.

7. You raised the other mans kid.

8. She won't tell you the truth because she , fears for the OM, she fears for the daughter, and she fears you will dump her and expose what she chose to do.

The whole I Chose You means she chose to use you to avoid raising the love chilled alone.

My advice is to DNA test your daughter and throw the results in front of your wife. Tell her she tells you the actual truth about who, and the full extent of the affair OR you will expose her.

It's 17 years past when you should have begun playing hardball with her.


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## Shaggy

And btw, when you have been consistently used and lied to for 17 years, being angry is perfectly reasonable and normal.


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## Hurtin_Still

Granny7 said:


> Hurtin still,
> 
> This is Granny7. Did you get a chance to read my long post that I put on here for you? It was in regards to my 25 yrs of not knowing the details either or somethings similar. I was trying to share with you how similar our stories are in hopes of helping you relate to what I've been through also and am still going through it. I hope you did take time to read it, along with another message or two that I sent you.
> 
> I'm in a very difficult place myself right now. I've just spiraled down lately and did just start on Zoloft about 6 days ago and I've been trying not to take it for a year. I think I waited to long, so I'll be glad when it sets in.
> 
> What your going through is so similar to mine as my H doesn't want to talk about it and says he can't remember anything. I still don't know if they even had sex yet. It has totally destroyed my life and the not knowing, just like you is so hard to deal with.
> 
> I do hope when you go to your session that if you don't like what she or he is saying, the therapist that is, that you don't storm out. Stay there and stand your ground and speak up for yourself. It all needs to be heard, don't let your anger take over as it won't do you any good and might make your wife feel like she's won again. Just think about it, please? I went through 5 yrs. of therapy, H came but wasn't really there, just his body. He could have learned so much and I think our life could have been so much better these past 25 yrs.
> 
> My cheating H also barely told me that he was sorry. He didn't beg for my forgiveness or go over board in telling me all that he was going to do to make up for it. So, your wife hasn't done enough if that's all that she did. My H wasn't remorseful hardly at all, he was to busy lying, being defensive and pretending that everything was normal. We even went out for our Anniversary 10 days after I found out, really stupid. I think I had one drink, started getting sick to my stomach and told him I didn't want to stay. It was so stupid to go and let him hold my hand at the table like everything was okay. It's amazing all the things we do to keep things normal, isn't it.
> 
> Now like you, I can blow up very easily, but he's worse with it. I don't yell and scream, mine is more controlled but he says so many hurtful things when he is cornered and doesn't like me asking questions. To me, that shows guilt.
> 
> Anyway, good luck tomorrow, I pray that it goes well for you.
> 
> Granny7


....yes Granny7...I did read your post and, it was quite informative and helpful. And, although I'm not 'pleased' to see that someone else shares the same experience as I do, it's somewhat comforting to know I shouldn't feel like a 'freak' or 'loser' because I'm not the only one that's been devastated like this and in such a similar manner.


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## Granny7

Hurtin Still,

Hurtin Still,
I'm sorry you are on here and need to read my post, it's an awful place to be in your life. I'm glad that you did read it, as I know it's long. I just couldn't tell if you had or not and I thought I could help you. I'm still not getting answer's yet, not enough to make any sense to me. I think that's the hardest part of all this. Your involved in the story, but you don't know what's in the pages and may never get to read the whole book.

You've been given a lot of great advice on here, I hope you are taking some of it. The paternity part was really a surprise to me, it never entered my mind, but it could be so true.

This might help you make a choice in wether to do this or not. My daughter got pregnant by her husband at Christmas and she supposedly planned it, as I remember my ex-son-in-law telling me that she really wanted to try and have a baby. She did get pregnant, but left him in the middle of the night when she was 3 months pregnant. Now, she had only been married 11 months when she got pregnant. She was in Ohio in the snow, drove off in the middle of the night to meet her ex-boyfriend that she had stayed in touch with who lived states away. He called me, frantic and didn't know what to do. We didn't know if she had been seeing her ex-boyfriend that we had kept her from when she was 17, as we didn't approve of him. 

To go back a little bit. She started seeing this young man at 14, she was a honor student, he skipped school, etc. In hindsight for all of you out there with children, if you don't like who you child is let them into your home and get to know them. When you forbid something, it's much more enticing to them. Anyway, our daughter moved out at 18 due to the affair that my H had, the stress in the home was to bad for her, she wanted me to divorce her Dad as she had been going through it for 2 yrs. She moved in with another young man that we liked and he really loved her, we thought she loved him and a couple years later got married. From what I understand she still stayed in contact, not sure when this happened, by phone. We didn't know if they had seen each other when she left her then husband, pregnant with who we thought was his baby. She got back to our town, we were very upset over the situation, period. We had given her a big wedding and it lasted 11 months. It was so unfair to her husband who loved her so much and moved in with her boyfriend that she had met at 14.

I can't remember when we decided that a paternity test needed to be done to be sure that the guy she married originally was the Father? We did the test and it was determined that her husband was the Father, but it was a difficult time for everyone. The boyfriend was in there with her when she gave birth to our first granddaughter. I thought she would want her Mom, but no, it was her boyfriend who she lived with, while her Husband was still back in Ohio and couldn't get here in time. 

She and her boyfriend eventually married in a year and he raised the little girl as his own and turned out to be a nice young man. Her real Father has tried to stay in her life through all these years, she's now almost 21. He's always paid child support, except when he didn't have a job. But she never formed the bond with her real Father as she did with the Dad that raised her and she has told us that her adopted Dad will walk her down the aisle. He lived states away in his hometown with his family, so it wasn't convenient to move to a strange city just to be around his daughter who was being raised by another man.

I feel so sad for her real Father as he was used by our daughter and I never thought it was fair what she did. He never got re-married, as she was the love of his life. He's been engaged, but I think my daughter ruined his life. 

I also think this would have never happened if my husband had not been having an affair when she was 14. He was neglecting her and she had been the apple of his eye, so she turned to the first young man that showed any interest in her. Didn't go to college and finally did get her degree at 40, so she's had a hard life, but a lot of it was by her choice. Yet, she changed drastically after she found out about the affair and how it affected our life.

So, I know this is long, but it tells you how an affair can affect who the Father is and also how it can affect the children that live at home during it and afterwards. It affects them for the rest of their life, as it changes the course of what their life can be.

So, I agree with everyone on here. Get the paternity test, put your mind at ease. If she isn't yours it won't matter. You will love her the same, as my now son-in-law does. Your marriage is a mess anyway, will she be angry if you find out that she isn't your child in blood, at this point why care what she thinks? You need peace of mind and is it fair to your daughter not to know the biological Father really is? She will love you as her Father anyway.

The other reason it's important as my H is adopted and doesn't know who his parents are. For health reason's I wish we knew who his real parents were in case any issues's came up that the information would help him act accordingly. 

So, you have a couple reason's to know if you are her Father and I pray that you are, but if not, she will always look at you at the Father that raised her and the heck with what your wife feels about it. You deserve to know and it sure looks like she hasn't been honest with you about anything. Just think about it.

Granny7


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## phillybeffandswiss

DNA test dude. Sorry. but going to counselors, working on a marriage, trying to reconcile and doing heavy lifting require trust. I wouldn't go to the marriage counselor until after the paternity came back.

Why?

It was part of your wife's ultimatum and doing it now shows she put you back in your place. You need to go there with your eyes FULLY open on equal levels.


> My anger lately has been so off the charts *that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long. *The ultimatum was basically, get help ...stop ...fix this ...or I'm leaving to get an apartment ...taking daughter(s) .[one is 17, the other 23].


She wants your understandable anger and hurt to be medicated? She hurt you and you are crazy because the wall you put up came down because she is going on a GNO, out of state, for 5 days? 

Tell me that sounds as ridiculous to you as it does me.
Also, if you do go, since you already had a bad experience, make sure your MC is marriage friendly and not going to take sides.


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## Hurtin_Still

phillybeffandswiss said:


> DNA test dude. Sorry. but going to counselors, working on a marriage, trying to reconcile and doing heavy lifting require trust. I wouldn't go to the marriage counselor until after the paternity came back.
> 
> Why?
> 
> It was part of your wife's ultimatum and doing it now shows she put you back in your place. You need to go there with your eyes FULLY open on equal levels._*She wants your understandable anger and hurt to be medicated?*_ She hurt you and you are crazy because the wall you put up came down because she is going on a GNO, out of state, for 5 days?
> 
> Tell me that sounds as ridiculous to you as it does me.
> Also, if you do go, since you already had a bad experience, *make sure your MC is marriage friendly and not going to take sides*.



...well the medication isn't really a bad idea. I have depression / anxiety disorder, so I should have stayed on the Prozac. But, I 'felt better' and then stopped taking it. It probably would allow me to think a bit clearer and deal with all life's stresses ...including all this crap too.

....and related to the MC .....if she's already "on my wife's side" ....I'm outta there like a bolt of lightening. THAT is what got us here ...the first MC didn't see what she did as "life changing'. 

...it's going to be eye opening to see what this new MC will say. My wife will not admit that she "cheated" ....she will admit that she "slept with someone". I think it's just revisionist history. If she slept with him a week before we had our 1 week "trial separation" ...or during that 1 week ...we were still married ...and in my book it's infidelity / cheating. (unless anyone can convince me that I'm wrong ....please speak up if I'm out of bounds with my thought process). She simply won't call it that. So, like I said ...if this MC tries to make me see stuff in "another light" ...she'll need to be jack-rabbit fast ...'cause she'll have to kiss my a$$ as I'm running out the door.


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## tom67

Get the DNA test if not for you for your kid please.


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## happyman64

You are not out of bounds with your thought process.

Go to MC with an open mind.

But if you feel you are hearing BS or rug sweeping advice stop them in their tracks and say so.


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## Hurtin_Still

happyman64 said:


> You are not out of bounds with your thought process.
> 
> Go to MC with an open mind.
> 
> But if you feel you are hearing BS or rug sweeping advice stop them in their tracks and say so.



I fully intend to take that path if the conditions are detrimental to my purposes and ....my mental and emotional health.


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## Hurtin_Still

tom67 said:


> Get the DNA test if not for you for your kid please.


...I clearly see your position ...and it's not one without 'value'. But, if I found my kid (well ...one of them at least) to not be "mine"....are you advocating that I tell them so ...at the age of 17? (I'm dead serious ...please bear with me ...the ch!t is 17+ years old ...but I'm only now beginning to deal with it). My wife has no idea where the OM is now .....and that ...I believe ...because she's a "home-body" now and I too am home all the time. So...she's not sneaking around on me.

...and let me state this for the record ....I love my wife ...dearly ...really I do. And that's why I'm here ....because if I can get past the pain ...I can enjoy the next 30+ years with her (_and THEN...I push her to the curb...because really ...who wants to be married to an 80 yr old wife_) All I wanted her to do is "own" (I HATE that frikkin' word!! used by therapists much too much!!) her actions. I want her to admit ...own ...take responsibility for ...that she CHEATED ...was unfaithful ...strayed ....etc. I think I could move past a lot of the pain ...if she too had some idea of the pain her actions caused ...not because she was "found out" ...but because she is truly sorry for the action.


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## MattMatt

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....does it ever make sense, or serve a purpose, to never want to replicate, duplicate, perform, act out ...etc ...in any manner, way, form that to other POS did with your wife, partner, etc?
> 
> ...after 17 years, the anger about my wife's (supposed) one nighter with someone else finally boiled over. Before you look twice...yes, I said 17 years. We have been together ever since that "indiscretion" ...and I took a path to reconciliation. But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name ...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.
> 
> ...this all has been brought to the front burner by:
> 
> 1: My lack of trust in her (she played the trust card in our marriage ...and it's been in the discard pile ever since.)
> 
> 2: She's planned a 5 night getaway in Fla with 5 of her HS girlfriends ...which ...brings to a boil issue #1.
> 
> My anger lately has been so off the charts that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long. The ultimatum was basically, get help ...stop ...fix this ...or I'm leaving to get an apartment ...taking daughter(s) .[one is 17, the other 23].
> 
> ....let's start with this ...I want to be head over heals in love with her. It physically hurts to deal with the emotion associated with the thought of another guy touching her. I'm probably shortening my lifespan for enduring this level of hurt and the affiliated hostility. It's probably not a good thing either that in lieu of having "real meds" ...I prefer to have a few shots of bourbon every so often to numb the pain.
> 
> ...we had a LONG talk about this today ...because she wouldn't get out of my face until we did. And as such, I got more and more angry with her that ...for lack of a better way of saying it ....she just wouldn't let me be angry because if was affecting her.
> 
> ....I spilled my guts again ...and I demanded answers. I wanted to know what this other guys name was, where he lived, etc. Her answer, "_does it really matter 17 years later"? _ I did the whole explanation to her about what SHOULD have happened back then on D-Day ...including disclosure, details, names, addresses, phone numbers, no contact statements...etc. _(too bad TAM didn't exist then)_. She remained clueless ...thinking ."it's over...let's move on".
> 
> ...I told her ..."_you and I were the only people that each of us had ever slept with ...and you told me that you you had to love someone in order to sleep with them_"...." _what could someone possibly say to you to make you sleep with them after just meeting them"?_ She told me that he said, "I want you". That's it....3 simple words. 3 words that if I ever had the inclination to WANT to say to my wife at an opportune moment ...will NEVER EVER say to her.
> 
> ....so the question I have for those that have stayed with a wayward spouse, "are you afraid to say or do anything that will remind you partner of the other man/woman".
> 
> ...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that *"you are sick and need serious help"*. Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.


Then say to her:* "If I am sick, then you the vector of my disease. You want me to get over it, then please help me to get over it!"*


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## workindad

You don't have to go to a lab for DNA tests. If you want it for your own piece of mind you can do it from the privacy of your own home. Your wife does not need to participate. You would need to do a simple cheek swab of you and the child in question. Results are very private, the process is not expensive. It will also clue you in should health issues ever arise and there is a need to track down OM.

No offense, but your wife slept with only 2 men in her life and she can't remember OM's name- the guy she cheated on you with. HMM, maybe.

You may also be able to get a good idea using a DNA genealogy service if you wanted to go that route, but it will cost a few more dollars and may be harder to decipher. I'm not positive about this approach.

Unfortunately, I had a need to use the first option. Both kids are mine, that was a relief, but a pity I had to check. Sorry you find yourself in this position. 

I know what an unremorseful wife is like. That is why I divorced her and I am honestly very glad I did. There is much happiness to be found through rebuilding your life without the need to live with this kind of crap. Especially when your spouse will not help you to reach the closure and healing you need to be at peace. You don't sound like you want this hanging over your head for next 17+ years. It's your choice if you want to accept this burden. 

Good Luck
WD


----------



## Acabado

Hurtin, what do you think about the scenario Shaggy posted about on page 5?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Hurtin_Still said:


> .
> ...and let me state this for the record ....I love my wife ...dearly ...really I do. And that's why I'm here ....because if I can get past the pain ...I can enjoy the next 30+ years with her (_and THEN...I push her to the curb...because really ...who wants to be married to an 80 yr old wife_) All I wanted her to do is "own" (I HATE that frikkin' word!! used by therapists much too much!!) her actions. I want her to admit ...own ...take responsibility for ...that she CHEATED ...was unfaithful ...strayed ....etc. I think I could move past a lot of the pain ...if she too had some idea of the pain her actions caused ...not because she was "found out" ...but because she is truly sorry for the action.


Own and admit are two different things. She already_ admitted _she slept with someone, you can *NEVER make her own anything.* She has to make that choice all by herself. Even the people that reconcile, had to CONFRONT their spouses with HARD evidence before things were corrected.

I really hope she is your bilogical daughter, but a paternity test in the negative would be a slap in the face for both of you.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Acabado said:


> Hurtin, what do you think about the scenario Shaggy posted about on page 5?



....yeah ...read it ...thought about it too. A lot of it is too hurtful to think about. I've been stressed to the point of exhaustion with this ....and had some severe chest pains this evening after a prolonged talk with her. Some details to the contrary of what she originally told me came out ...and she told me that the therapist told her ..to never tell the name of the guy or details to me ...for fear I'd hunt him down and kill him.

1. she didn't meet him at the bar that that she said ...she met him at a bar in a bowling alley (her therapist told her to say this)

2. It's no one I know.

3. She knew "of him" but didn't "know him" until the night of the hook up.

4. Knows his first name ...will not tell me.

5. Can't grasp my pain now that I know she even lied about details ...at the instruction of her therapist.

....look people (and you're all good people too) . I'm crushed ...almost beyond words at the moment....(and maybe I had one too many drinks at dinner.) I agonized over details that I knew...or thought I did for many years ...to find thay are not true. I just want to crawl in a hole and die now. I feel like I died all over again ....

....sorry to verbally weep ....maybe I need a break from all this.


----------



## Shaggy

You may love her.

She does not love you.

If she did she would do anything to be honest with you and help you heal.

She isn't making healing you a priority in anyway.

She is using you and frankly abusing you emotionally.


----------



## jim123

You need to know the truth. 

Is she going on the trip? What do you think the women are going to do on the trip.


----------



## cledus_snow

sounds like your wife ain't budging on this. she seems to be using that terrible advise from her therapist(concerning full transparency) to stonewall you.

the reason your dealing with this NOW is because you never adressed this issue in the beginning. are you gonna wait another couple of years before you drudge this up again? 

get your answers now so you can finally move forward. by this, i mean get tough with her..... tell your wife you either get your answers, or you're walkin'. simple as that!


----------



## Hurtin_Still

jim123 said:


> You need to know the truth.
> 
> Is she going on the trip? What do you think the women are going to do on the trip.


...yes ...she's still going on the trip. One of her HS girlfriend's mother owns a house near orlando so they will be staying there. As far as I know they are going to Universal, Downtown Disneys, a wine tasting seminar, and a karaoke place.

...this was discussed today because it came up in a conversation related to me trusting her (or the ongoing lack thereof).

....I've stopped asking about details of the sexual encounter. When more info came out ...I felt worse .....physically worse (intense chest pains and light headed feeling) I can't afford to be physically sick like that. I'll have to somehow accept that she's had one more sexual partner than I have in my life....and I hope that I was 'better' than the other guy.

.... I will say that for the first time ever, I could see that she was somewhat ashamed of what happened. She also admitted that she's terribly uncomfortable about shows / movies / media that deals with infidelity topics. 

....in the past 17 years, she has been very supportive of me, a good (great actually) mother, a great financial partner keeping us afloat. I'm going to go to the therapist with her this coming week to get my side on the table, and see what direction all this goes. I'm going to keep an open mind and do what needs to happen to get my mental, emotional, and physical "stuff" on an even keel.


----------



## bandit.45

Look her dead square in the eye and tell her that if you ever on the offchance decide to kill someone over her affair, that it won't be the OM. Keep staring at her with the deadest Hannibal Lecter stare you can muster. Let it sink in, then turn around and walk away. 

Oh and make sure she's not recording you. He he.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hurtin_Still

bandit.45 said:


> Look her dead square in the eye and tell her that if you ever on the offchance decide to kill someone over her affair, that it won't be the OM. Keep staring at her with the deadest Hannibal Lecter stare you can muster. Let it sink in, then turn around and walk away.
> 
> Oh and make sure she's not recording you. He he.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



....been there ...done that ......several times. Have you been monitoring my thought-waves? 

....whenever I see or hear a story about marital infidelity turning violent ...I have a clear picture why and how it happens ...and am surprised it's not prevalent as the number of marital indiscretions.


----------



## bandit.45

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....I've stopped asking about details of the sexual encounter. When more info came out ...I felt worse .....physically worse (intense chest pains and light headed feeling) I can't afford to be physically sick like that. I'll have to somehow accept that she's had one more sexual partner than I have in my life....and I hope that I was 'better' than the other guy.
> 
> .... I will say that for the first time ever, I could see that she was somewhat ashamed of what happened. She also admitted that she's terribly uncomfortable about shows / movies / media that deals with infidelity topics.
> 
> ....*in the past 17 years, she has been very supportive of me, a good (great actually) mother, a great financial partner keeping us afloat. * I'm going to go to the therapist with her this coming week to get my side on the table, and see what direction all this goes. I'm going to keep an open mind and do what needs to happen to get my mental, emotional, and physical "stuff" on an even keel.


You've been a business partner who she occasionally has sex with. 

You're not her lover. She cheated because she wanted a lover, a secret, a naughty and illicit funboy who she could play with behind your back. 

You need to lay it on the line in that MC session, and if the counselor doesn't give you your podium, walk out.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

bandit.45 said:


> You've been a business partner who she occasionally has sex with.
> 
> You're not her lover. She cheated because she wanted a lover, a secret, a naughty and illicit funboy who she could play with behind your back.
> 
> You need to lay it on the line in that MC session, and if the counselor doesn't give you your podium, walk out.


....way ahead of you regarding my stance. I will not be railroaded ever again by a therapist. Another 'catch phrase' that I won't tolerate is, "I know how you feel / what you're going through / where you're at". because...NO THEY DON'T. Stuff like that only takes up time and my money at a therapists office.


----------



## akashNil

With all due respect to your Wife and her therapist, I think:
1. She might have taken this decision not to tell you the details on her own - Not instructed by a therapist. 
2. *Most probably the OM is very much known to you. *That's why she might not be able to tell you his name (Full name. Not ONLY first name).

Still I do not think you will ever know exactly what happened, how frequently, and with whom. They say time is a cure for everything - but that also doesn't seem to work in this situation (Includes me too). 

The only relief that I get (in my case) is knowing how I have become detached with her over the period of years. No love - No pain.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

akashNil said:


> With all due respect to your Wife and her therapist, I think:
> 1. She might have taken this decision not to tell you the details on her own - Not instructed by a therapist.
> 2. *Most probably the OM is very much known to you. *That's why she might not be able to tell you his name (Full name. Not ONLY first name).
> 
> Still I do not think you will ever know exactly what happened, how frequently, and with whom. They say time is a cure for everything - but that also doesn't seem to work in this situation (Includes me too).
> 
> The only relief that I get (in my case) is knowing how I have become detached with her over the period of years. No love - No pain.



...related to #1 ....she is absolutely guilty of giving inappropriate "instructions" to my wife. That therapist (woman) was a complete feminist ...with only views that favored my wife. She had no ability to sit on the fence and administer guidance equally to both parties. That's the reason I stopped ....abruptly .....going there. In retrospect ....she definitely deserved a thorough biatch slapping for her professional incompetence.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

......well .....today will be my 'visit' to the therapist that my wife goes to. And, given my age old mistrust and loathing for therapists, counselors, etc ........I have a huge anxiety attack going on right now. 

....it's been almost as bad as D-Day this past week, given that I was told info from my wife about the A that is contrary to what I was led to believe for +17 years. I have a lot that I want to say in this 'session' and I know that I will not get to all of it in 1 hour's time. 

....I honestly, truly, sincerely, want to get past all this. But I fear this therapy session like no other, because I think that all the background (her account) has been provided by my wife and I'm possibly entering a toxic minefield. 

....and I guess that my biggest dose of trepidation comes from the idea that I will likely never know the absolute truth about anything (or if I can handle the actual truth) and have to continue to live a lie.


----------



## Granny7

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......well .....today will be my 'visit' to the therapist that my wife goes to. And, given my age old mistrust and loathing for therapists, counselors, etc ........I have a huge anxiety attack going on right now.
> 
> ....it's been almost as bad as D-Day this past week, given that I was told info from my wife about the A that is contrary to what I was led to believe for +17 years. I have a lot that I want to say in this 'session' and I know that I will not get to all of it in 1 hour's time.
> 
> ....I honestly, truly, sincerely, want to get past all this. But I fear this therapy session like no other, because I think that all the background (her account) has been provided by my wife and I'm possibly entering a toxic minefield.
> 
> ....and I guess that my biggest dose of trepidation comes from the idea that I will likely never know the absolute truth about anything (or if I can handle the actual truth) and have to continue to live a lie.


Hurtin Still,
I've taken a break as I'm trying to find my own therapist. It's such a job, believe me. Just know that your not alone in worrying, so your in my thoughts. I get nervous just thinking about going and talking about my painful life. I think you've got it under control and know how to handle it better now with all the advice you've been given. 

It's such a personal matter going to a therapist and having a comfortable fit, I've been to 4 or 5 in the past 18 months and none of them worked, so don't feel bad. 

I don't know if I'll ever get the truth or not either. I do know a polygraph test is going to be done, no matter what. I will still be seeing a counselor on my own and according to the test, we'll decide if marriage counseling is necessary, so I feel your pain. Let us know how it goes and best of luck.

All I can say is, GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT, PERIOD! Don't be like me at 69 and letting 25 yrs. or more go by and not know what happened in your life. You need peace finally, "The truth will set you free."

Granny7


----------



## Shaggy

Hurting. What if she is hiding you daughter from the OM? There's a good chance he is her bio father. So in addition of keeping you away from him, what if she's keeping the daughter away?

It's a longshot. I think the heart of her refusal is she doesn't want you to know you aren't the bio father. She's sure that will cause you to leave. 

You might be able to break the jam by showing her a DNA test result.


----------



## lordmayhem

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...related to #1 ....she is absolutely guilty of giving inappropriate "instructions" to my wife. That therapist (woman) was a complete feminist ...with only views that favored my wife. She had no ability to sit on the fence and administer guidance equally to both parties. That's the reason I stopped ....abruptly .....going there. In retrospect ....she definitely deserved a thorough biatch slapping for her professional incompetence.


What?

No wonder you're feeling anxiety about going there. Don't!

Find one that you trust and not involved with your situation so you can get impartial advice. That's the thing about therapists: If you don't like one, then fire him/her. 

Your WW has been completely enabled by her therapist instead of being held responsible for her actions. Find someone else fast.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> Hurting. What if she is hiding you daughter from the OM? There's a good chance he is her bio father. So in addition of keeping you away from him, what if she's keeping the daughter away?
> 
> It's a longshot. I think the heart of her refusal is she doesn't want you to know you aren't the bio father. She's sure that will cause you to leave.
> 
> You might be able to break the jam by showing her a DNA test result.


:iagree:You will not be able to heal if you don't do this it will just be eating at you. The truth will come out sooner or later why not make it sooner you will feel better in the long run, good luck.


----------



## happyman64

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......well .....today will be my 'visit' to the therapist that my wife goes to. And, given my age old mistrust and loathing for therapists, counselors, etc ........I have a huge anxiety attack going on right now.
> 
> ....it's been almost as bad as D-Day this past week, given that I was told info from my wife about the A that is contrary to what I was led to believe for +17 years. I have a lot that I want to say in this 'session' and I know that I will not get to all of it in 1 hour's time.
> 
> ....I honestly, truly, sincerely, want to get past all this. But I fear this therapy session like no other, because I think that all the background (her account) has been provided by my wife and I'm possibly entering a toxic minefield.
> 
> ....and I guess that my biggest dose of trepidation comes from the idea that I will likely never know the absolute truth about anything (or if I can handle the actual truth) and have to continue to live a lie.


Why not start your turn in the session by reading what you wrote above???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ShootMePlz!

You can do a quick blood type calculator via the internet to at least rule in/out obvious situations! Its based on your blood type and your wife's only able to produce x possible blood type children. Just know the blood types of you, your wife and children.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

lordmayhem said:


> What?
> 
> No wonder you're feeling anxiety about going there. Don't!
> 
> *Find one that you trust and not involved with your situation so you can get impartial advice. That's the thing about therapists: If you don't like one, then fire him/her. *
> 
> Your WW has been completely enabled by her therapist instead of being held responsible for her actions. Find someone else fast.


.....I absolutely will not sit and talk with someone that is going to make me want to sweep all this under a rug and tell me, _"you need to get over this, after all, it was only sex"_...as was the case with that incompetent therapist many yrs ago. 

....I agree that it's difficult to find a therapist that is the right "fit". And by that, I do not, ABSOLUTELY NOT, meant that it's one that tells me what I want to hear. Lip service is not what I'm looking for ...if I want that I'll watch CNN. I did once see a therapist (a male) who I saw in one-on-one, as well as group therapy sessions. I saw him for both my depression-anxiety disorder ...as well as the marital/infidelity problems. And I will say that I had never felt better ...about me ....than when I worked with him and in particular, the group. I could deal with being told I was acting like an a$$hole by him as well as several other guys in the group sessions. But I also felt unparallelled support when they agreed with me and wanted to help in their own ways.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Granny7 said:


> Hurtin Still,
> I've taken a break as I'm trying to find my own therapist. It's such a job, believe me. Just know that your not alone in worrying, so your in my thoughts. I get nervous just thinking about going and talking about my painful life. I think you've got it under control and know how to handle it better now with all the advice you've been given.
> 
> It's such a personal matter going to a therapist and having a comfortable fit, I've been to 4 or 5 in the past 18 months and none of them worked, so don't feel bad.
> 
> I don't know if I'll ever get the truth or not either. I do know a polygraph test is going to be done, no matter what. I will still be seeing a counselor on my own and according to the test, we'll decide if marriage counseling is necessary, so I feel your pain. Let us know how it goes and best of luck.
> 
> All I can say is, GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT, PERIOD! Don't be like me at 69 and letting 25 yrs. or more go by and not know what happened in your life. You need peace finally, "The truth will set you free."
> 
> Granny7



....I really appreciate your support ......thank you

....and yes, the truth can have a tendency to "set you free" ....however, you need to actually get the truth first, and not what someone else feels you need or deserve to hear in order to justify their actions.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

ShootMePlz! said:


> You can do a quick blood type calculator via the internet to at least rule in/out obvious situations! Its based on your blood type and your wife's only able to produce x possible blood type children. Just know the blood types of you, your wife and children.


....wow...I didn't know that. Thank You .....maybe it's a start?


----------



## Graywolf2

You have been posting frequently lately and I just found one of the posts you started. I can really understand why you feel betrayed a second time by your wife and cheated of your due by the marriage counselor. 

*“....no truth if one of my children is really mine.”*

You may not want to know, but you could do a DNA test secretly (not telling your wife or daughter).

If she’s not yours, you could tell your wife that you deserve some answers for raising a kid that isn’t yours.

If she is yours, you can then take the “genetic pride” you were talking about.

BTW, two brown hair people can have a blonde kid.

You can buy a test kit at WalMart for $30 and mail it to a lab for processing for an additional $130. Just do a search for “paternity test” to see your options.

The most common sample would be from rubbing a Q-tip inside your daughter’s cheek and yours.

The problem is explaining to your daughter why you’re doing that.

You could use a Band-Aid that she has put in the trash (pus is as good as blood), give her a new toothbrush and get it after she 
brushes her teeth, etc. You could use a panty liner or tampon from the trash. Just make sure it's not your wife's.

1. What kinds of samples are needed for DNA testing?

Genetic Profiles frequently uses a cheek swab collection (buccal swab) since it is easy to obtain, completely non-invasive, painless, and is just as accurate as blood samples. Almost any biological sample could be used since DNA is located everywhere throughout the body in the same exact form.

2. What is the difference between a blood test and a mouth swab?

A buccal swab sample is just as accurate as a blood sample. The advantages of using buccal swab collections are that they are non-invasive, painless, quick and easy.

3. Can hair samples be used for DNA paternity testing?

Yes. However hair samples must have the root follicle intact. For the follicle to remain intact, it generally requires the hair to be pulled directly from the scalp. If this is your preferred method of collection, please contact our client services department for additional information.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: When you find out the 'details' of the PA....*



Graywolf2 said:


> You have been posting frequently lately and I just found one of the posts you started. I can really understand why you feel betrayed a second time by your wife and cheated of your due by the marriage counselor.
> 
> *“....no truth if one of my children is really mine.”*
> 
> You may not want to know, but you could do a DNA test secretly (not telling your wife or daughter).
> 
> If she’s not yours, you could tell your wife that you deserve some answers for raising a kid that isn’t yours.
> 
> If she is yours, you can then take the “genetic pride” you were talking about.
> 
> BTW, two brown hair people can have a blonde kid.
> 
> You can buy a test kit at WalMart for $30 and mail it to a lab for processing for an additional $130. Just do a search for “paternity test” to see your options.
> 
> The most common sample would be from rubbing a Q-tip inside your daughter’s cheek and yours.
> 
> The problem is explaining to your daughter why you’re doing that.
> 
> You could use a Band-Aid that she has put in the trash (pus is as good as blood), give her a new toothbrush and get it after she
> brushes her teeth, etc. You could use a panty liner or tampon from the trash. Just make sure it's not your wife's.
> 
> 1. What kinds of samples are needed for DNA testing?
> 
> Genetic Profiles frequently uses a cheek swab collection (buccal swab) since it is easy to obtain, completely non-invasive, painless, and is just as accurate as blood samples. Almost any biological sample could be used since DNA is located everywhere throughout the body in the same exact form.
> 
> 2. What is the difference between a blood test and a mouth swab?
> 
> A buccal swab sample is just as accurate as a blood sample. The advantages of using buccal swab collections are that they are non-invasive, painless, quick and easy.
> 
> 3. Can hair samples be used for DNA paternity testing?
> 
> Yes. However hair samples must have the root follicle intact. For the follicle to remain intact, it generally requires the hair to be pulled directly from the scalp. If this is your preferred method of collection, please contact our client services department for additional information.


.....I appreciate the information. I'm trying to work thru this very issue in therapy. It's incredibly frustrating to have to try and resolve life changing issues ....in 1 hour blocks of time ....once a week.


----------



## theroad

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I appreciate the information. I'm trying to work thru this very issue in therapy. It's incredibly frustrating to have to try and resolve life changing issues ....in 1 hour blocks of time ....once a week.


Can you update what has happened between March and now?

This is a problem when people keep starting new threads. Makes it hard to follow up.


----------



## john1068

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...My wife, to this day cannot tell me if the other guy had a condom on.


Of course you wife can tell you if the POSOM had a condom on or not. She knows, she just won't tell you. From what I gather from affairs on TAM, protected sex with the AP is rare, almost non existent...She is lying to you by omission.


----------



## Healer

john1068 said:


> Of course you wife can tell you if the POSOM had a condom on or not. She knows, she just won't tell you. From what I gather from affairs on TAM, protected sex with the AP is rare, almost non existent...She is lying to you by omission.


If she can't tell you, then it's a guarantee he didn't glove up. I think it's extremely rare that they do. Affair sex isn't exactly well thought out, carefully planned, logical, etc. It's illicit, disgusting and dirty by its very nature. Hence, no condoms.


----------



## mahike

My wife told me that it was protected sex. Why would she be honest about that when she lied about where she was and breaking your vows.

I went for an STD test. It is still an issue for me that that POS was in her. Something I will always have to deal with.


----------



## workindad

If she can't tell you that he had a condom on. Then he didn't
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

Healer said:


> If she can't tell you, then it's a guarantee he didn't glove up. I think it's extremely rare that they do. Affair sex isn't exactly well thought out, carefully planned, logical, etc. It's illicit, disgusting and dirty by its very nature. Hence, no condoms.


Cheaters don't get diseases, because they always ask the other person first, and they usually only had sex one time before and it was with protection and they didn't like it, so they're very clean like a bleached albino unicorn.


----------



## SaltInWound

russell28 said:


> Cheaters don't get diseases, because they always ask the other person first, and they usually only had sex one time before and it was with protection and they didn't like it, so they're very clean like a bleached albino unicorn.


:rofl:


----------



## Hurtin_Still

russell28 said:


> Cheaters don't get diseases, because they always ask the other person first, and they usually only had sex one time before and it was with protection and they didn't like it, so they're very clean like a bleached albino unicorn.



....as much as it hurts ....I really want to laugh at that analogy.


----------



## arbitrator

*But once the infidelity line has been crossed, and up until the time that it is either discovered or summarily broken off, I would feel rather certain that both illicit partners would likely remain loyal to only each other and would only have "begrudging sex' with their legitimate partner's only out of sheer necessity! And for as long as they continue to have sex with each other, they will just live and share that STD.

It's only during that begrudging sex with their normal partners when those social diseases tend to get passed along!*


----------



## Hurtin_Still

theroad said:


> Can you update what has happened between March and now?
> 
> This is a problem when people keep starting new threads. Makes it hard to follow up.


...where I'm at?

...well ...obviously still together ...plodding thru daily life 'things'.

...the "topic' is usually discussed with her after I come back from the therapist. Whom, I may say , seems to exhibit more empathy for my situation, feelings, emotional upheaval ...than my wife does.

...I usually ask my wife what SHE discussed at the therapist ...hoping ...that she's been addressing this topic. Usually, she's not. She does however say that she discusses things such as my perpetual underlying anger ...which ...if she's accepts what she needs to do for me ...might not be there. I kinda' figured that out all by my lonesome self....

....the therapist has tried to give me "exercises" to get over the triggers ...or to just get it out of my mind. I was told that I 'get' 30 minutes a day to 'deal' with this ...and associated thoughts ...and then am to shut it off ...to deal with the rest of my life.

....I have addressed the 'details" issue with the therapist at great length ...because that's killing me. What's been bothering me about the issue ...is, "what can I, should I ...or how in depth" can my questions be? I almost want to hear that the POSOM wore a condom ...because ...in my mind ...he'd not have been really 'touching' her. 

....I almost don't know what to ask her anymore ...because she refuses to discuss the issue ...BECAUSE ...I was so terrible to her in the years before the marriage got really sh!tty and and we went to the insane therapist ...and she had the ONS.

....I feel like my wife continues to downplay the significance of the whole event, "because it was one time", and therefore is not as bad as a lengthy affair. Her take on everything is that ...(and she'll use visuals for this) ....she 'draws' a timeline that's +30 yrs long. Then she shows 12 not so great years ...then a singular point on the line that's her ONS ...then ...18 yrs following, that she calls hell. So ...clearly ...she's minimizing the 'act' ...and isolating it to that one point in time. She refuses to educate herself with any of the material / books etc available to learn what a BS goes through. And I know that I would always have a hurt deep inside ...but if she only tried to see how bad the hurt is ..what her actions caused ...that I could go on with her ..knowing she cared enough to understand it.


....I'm sorry for rambling ...I get a bit twisted out of shape when I really get into discussing this. Perhaps that's why my wife told me I was "sick" regarding my thoughts ...


----------



## ArmyofJuan

Maybe its time to move on, life is too short for to put up with this. Lucky for you dating isn't all that bad for older guys (I chased girls at 20, at 40 they chased me).

There was another guy on here that got a D 12 years after D-day, it happens.


----------



## russell28

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...where I'm at?
> 
> ...well ...obviously still together ...plodding thru daily life 'things'.
> 
> ...the "topic' is usually discussed with her after I come back from the therapist. Whom, I may say , seems to exhibit more empathy for my situation, feelings, emotional upheaval ...than my wife does.
> 
> ...I usually ask my wife what SHE discussed at the therapist ...hoping ...that she's been addressing this topic. Usually, she's not. She does however say that she discusses things such as my perpetual underlying anger ...which ...if she's accepts what she needs to do for me ...might not be there. I kinda' figured that out all by my lonesome self....
> 
> ....the therapist has tried to give me "exercises" to get over the triggers ...or to just get it out of my mind. I was told that I 'get' 30 minutes a day to 'deal' with this ...and associated thoughts ...and then am to shut it off ...to deal with the rest of my life.
> 
> ....I have addressed the 'details" issue with the therapist at great length ...because that's killing me. What's been bothering me about the issue ...is, "what can I, should I ...or how in depth" can my questions be? I almost want to hear that the POSOM wore a condom ...because ...in my mind ...he'd not have been really 'touching' her.
> 
> ....I almost don't know what to ask her anymore ...because she refuses to discuss the issue ...BECAUSE ...I was so terrible to her in the years before the marriage got really sh!tty and and we went to the insane therapist ...and she had the ONS.
> 
> ....I feel like my wife continues to downplay the significance of the whole event, "because it was one time", and therefore is not as bad as a lengthy affair. Her take on everything is that ...(and she'll use visuals for this) ....she 'draws' a timeline that's +30 yrs long. Then she shows 12 not so great years ...then a singular point on the line that's her ONS ...then ...18 yrs following, that she calls hell. So ...clearly ...she's minimizing the 'act' ...and isolating it to that one point in time. She refuses to educate herself with any of the material / books etc available to learn what a BS goes through. And I know that I would always have a hurt deep inside ...but if she only tried to see how bad the hurt is ..what her actions caused ...that I could go on with her ..knowing she cared enough to understand it.
> 
> 
> ....I'm sorry for rambling ...I get a bit twisted out of shape when I really get into discussing this. Perhaps that's why my wife told me I was "sick" regarding my thoughts ...


Rename that single tiny point on her timeline, that precedes 'hell'.. as 'begin hell'

Then connect it to modern times, and put 'hell continues thanks to no remorse or empathy from my wayward wife, just attempts to minimize and tell me I'm wrong for feeling pain from her betrayal'

This is like her poking your right eye out, and telling you to get over it because it could have been both eyes. Ask if she's aware that her actions are what created her hell.


----------



## Dyokemm

Hurtin',

I would never recommend you actually do this, but if there was ever a WS who could benefit from a RA slap in the face it would be your WW.

I think a RA (though I'm not against them on general principles) would be more damaging to you personally, so I DO NOT advise you to do it.

But I think it would very eye-opening for your unrepentant WW to suddenly have to face her own questions of who, where, what, and why.

I'll bet her entire perspective on your 'issues' and 'sickness' would be altered dramatically.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

This was written by Mrs. John Adams and given to John Adams. When I read it I only wished my wife had written it and/or sent it to me. I still argue with myself as to whether or not I should give it to my wife as the situation is very similar to the Adams. Maybe you should give this to your wife so that she may understand.

I cannot undo what i have done or said but i can promise to do better. I promise to love and cherish you all the days of my life. I promise to put your feelings before mine. I promise to be there for you when you need to cry, when you need me to squeeze your hand, when you need me to say how very much i love you. I promise to be the kind of wife you have always deserved. The kind of wife God provided for you 41 years ago and i messed up. I stole the innocence of our youth and instead gave you a life of pain. I cannot take it away but i can do better.

I have always loved you and i sure have a poor way if showing it. I loved myself first. I am not worthy of your love or loyalty but i am so thankful for it. 

Please forgive me and give me the chance to prove to you how very sorry i am for hurting you.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Dyokemm said:


> Hurtin',
> 
> I would never recommend you actually do this, but if there was ever a WS who could benefit from a RA slap in the face it would be your WW.
> 
> I think a RA (though I'm not against them on general principles) would be more damaging to you personally, so I DO NOT advise you to do it.
> 
> But I think it would very eye-opening for your unrepentant WW to suddenly have to face her own questions of who, where, what, and why.
> 
> I'll bet her entire perspective on your 'issues' and 'sickness' would be altered dramatically.



....you're correct ...it would be more damaging to me. 

....I'm not perfect ....I never said I was ...nor will I ever attain that status. I will ...however ...hold to my principles ...and NEVER inflict pain on another ...like I had put on me ...even my wife.

.....and I guess that your last comment ...verifies that it's normal to be obsessed with that which has had such a profound impact on ones life ...and yet pieces of the puzzle are still missing.


----------



## Dyokemm

Hurtin'

Yes, your basically good hearted nature is apparent in what you have shared here.

The mere fact that you have been willing to continue M with her when she is unrepentant and unwilling to deal with her actions shows that.

And I agree, for YOU personally, it would probably be even more devastating to feel like you failed yourself.

My point really was that some people, and your WW seems to be one of them, are so unempathetic towards others that they will NEVER truly understand how badly they have f'd up until it happens TO them and they get to experience all the pain and suffering they have been dishing out.

She is lucky that she doesn't have a more vindictive partner.


----------



## wilderness

Why not just start a fight every single day until you get the identity of the man plus the details? If you make things miserable enough for her, eventually she will either tell you or leave you.

If it were me I would go even further and refuse to clean up after myself and pay the bills until she tells you.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Dyokemm said:


> Hurtin'
> 
> Yes, your basically good hearted nature is apparent in what you have shared here.
> 
> The mere fact that you have been willing to continue M with her when she is unrepentant and unwilling to deal with her actions shows that.
> 
> And I agree, for YOU personally, it would probably be even more devastating to feel like you failed yourself.
> 
> My point really was that some people, and your WW seems to be one of them, are so unempathetic towards others that they will NEVER truly understand how badly they have f'd up until it happens TO them and they get to experience all the pain and suffering they have been dishing out.
> 
> She is lucky that she doesn't have a more vindictive partner.


....I appreciate your kind commentary.

....I will say that my wife would tell you that I am ...vindictive ...because I have remained hurt for so long. Imagine that .....I'm hurt! Who woulda' thought it possible.....?:scratchhead:

....something comes to mind....regarding my therapist: She did at one point ...after meeting me ...then my wife ....then both of us together .....say that I just might be holding on to this 'hurt' for a bit too long. In a joint session with my wife ...I did at one point get on the topic that I would have ...nor ever will ...cheat on her. (this ...as I recall ...was in reply to a snarky remark from my wife ...which was something like "do you want to sleep with someone to get even with me"?)

.....then later ...in a solo session with the therapist .....the conversation focused on my concerns about "details" ...and how that aspect (the sex) consumed me. The therapist was, in my opinion, getting to the point where I felt she was about to label me as being a bit over-consumed with it ...to the point of being 'childish' ...for lack of a better term. Then ...I revealed to her that the depth of my hurt ...was maybe bit more intense ...because my wife ...was the ONLY person I ever slept with ...ever (and she with me ..until the ONS). The therapist did a complete ..."_slam the brakes hold the phone ......let me turn this around move_" ....when she heard this, and started talking in a way that indicated that perhaps I wasn't so 'childish' ...because I had lost (in this day and age at least) something very rare ...and special (at least to me). 

....I face the fact that I'm not a male model type, with washboard abs, a million bucks in the bank, and porn star equipment. So the mere fact that my wife wanted to have sex with me to begin with ...was a wonder to me ...and I cherished it. 

.....maybe I am a bit immature regarding the whole sex thing? I am what I suppose people may label as a 'romantic' ...and things like that (monogamy) ...I hold (held) very near and dear to me. Silly me.....


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....I appreciate your kind commentary.
> 
> ....I will say that my wife would tell you that I am ...vindictive ...because I have remained hurt for so long. Imagine that .....I'm hurt! Who woulda' thought it possible.....?:scratchhead:
> 
> ....something comes to mind....regarding my therapist: She did at one point ...after meeting me ...then my wife ....then both of us together .....say that I just might be holding on to this 'hurt' for a bit too long. In a joint session with my wife ...I did at one point get on the topic that I would have ...nor ever will ...cheat on her. (this ...as I recall ...was in reply to a snarky remark from my wife ...which was something like "do you want to sleep with someone to get even with me"?)
> 
> .....then later ...in a solo session with the therapist .....the conversation focused on my concerns about "details" ...and how that aspect (the sex) consumed me. The therapist was, in my opinion, getting to the point where I felt she was about to label me as being a bit over-consumed with it ...to the point of being 'childish' ...for lack of a better term. Then ...I revealed to her that the depth of my hurt ...was maybe bit more intense ...because my wife ...was the ONLY person I ever slept with ...ever (and she with me ..until the ONS). The therapist did a complete ..."_slam the brakes hold the phone ......let me turn this around move_" ....when she heard this, and started talking in a way that indicated that perhaps I wasn't so 'childish' ...because I had lost (in this day and age at least) something very rare ...and special (at least to me).
> 
> ....I face the fact that I'm not a male model type, with washboard abs, a million bucks in the bank, and porn star equipment. So the mere fact that my wife wanted to have sex with me to begin with ...was a wonder to me ...and I cherished it.
> 
> .....maybe I am a bit immature regarding the whole sex thing? I am what I suppose people may label as a 'romantic' ...and things like that (monogamy) ...I hold (held) very near and dear to me. Silly me.....


HURTIN

what would your wife do if you asked your daughter for a cheek swab, she asked you why you need it and you answered truthfully. 
Your child is almost an adult, and both you and your daughter deserve the truth on whether you're her father or not.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....I appreciate your kind commentary.
> 
> ....I will say that my wife would tell you that I am ...vindictive ...because I have remained hurt for so long. Imagine that .....I'm hurt! Who woulda' thought it possible.....?:scratchhead:
> 
> ....something comes to mind....regarding my therapist: She did at one point ...after meeting me ...then my wife ....then both of us together .....say that I just might be holding on to this 'hurt' for a bit too long. In a joint session with my wife ...I did at one point get on the topic that I would have ...nor ever will ...cheat on her. (this ...as I recall ...was in reply to a snarky remark from my wife ...which was something like "do you want to sleep with someone to get even with me"?)
> 
> .....then later ...in a solo session with the therapist .....the conversation focused on my concerns about "details" ...and how that aspect (the sex) consumed me. The therapist was, in my opinion, getting to the point where I felt she was about to label me as being a bit over-consumed with it ...to the point of being 'childish' ...for lack of a better term. Then ...I revealed to her that the depth of my hurt ...was maybe bit more intense ...because my wife ...was the ONLY person I ever slept with ...ever (and she with me ..until the ONS). The therapist did a complete ..."_slam the brakes hold the phone ......let me turn this around move_" ....when she heard this, and started talking in a way that indicated that perhaps I wasn't so 'childish' ...because I had lost (in this day and age at least) something very rare ...and special (at least to me).
> 
> ....I face the fact that I'm not a male model type, with washboard abs, a million bucks in the bank, and porn star equipment. So the mere fact that my wife wanted to have sex with me to begin with ...was a wonder to me ...and I cherished it.
> 
> .....maybe I am a bit immature regarding the whole sex thing? I am what I suppose people may label as a 'romantic' ...and things like that (monogamy) ...I hold (held) very near and dear to me. Silly me.....


HURTIN

Another idea. Why not separate from your wife for 4-6 weeks or so. Live elsewhere and explain you're doing so to clear your head and think on whether you want to continue in the marriage. How would your wife react to that?


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: When you find out the 'details' of the PA....*



nuclearnightmare said:


> HURTIN
> 
> what would your wife do if you asked your daughter for a cheek swab, she asked you why you need it and you answered truthfully.
> Your child is almost an adult, and both you and your daughter deserve the truth on whether you're her father or not.


.....I sincerely doubt she'd agree to it. And I wouldn't subject my daughter to that.

...... I'll suffer ....before I ever hurt her.


----------



## tom67

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I sincerely doubt she'd agree to it. And I wouldn't subject my daughter to that.
> 
> ...... I'll suffer ....before I ever hurt her.


:slap::slap::slap:
You don't have to let your w know but you won't do it because you are afraid.
This is really sad the truth will come out eventually.
Good luck playing the martyr.
Were you abused as a child? I'm serious.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: When you find out the 'details' of the PA....*



tom67 said:


> :slap::slap::slap:
> You don't have to let your w know but you won't do it because you are afraid.
> This is really sad the truth will come out eventually.
> Good luck playing the martyr.
> Were you abused as a child? I'm serious.


.....abused? Absolutely not....


----------



## tom67

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....abused? Absolutely not....


Then Hurtin, please get proactive.
Your behaviour is not normal.
Buy a DNA kit for about $100-$125 and just do it.
No one deserves this [email protected] you are living.
Good grief I posted last march in this thread.
Think about it.


----------



## RWB

Hurtin_Still;1522235
...after 17 years said:


> But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name [/B]...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.


Hurtin, Hurtin, Hurtin...

I'm 4+ years into R with my FWW (multiple OM when caught). 

I know somewhere I have posted in your past... Here the TRUTH... even if you get your wife to finally open up and tell you some details, she will withhold the worst and take them to the grave. For her it was 17 years ago, she has lived and buried them long ago. It means nothing to her now, "a thousand miles downstream". I know for you... it's 15 minutes ago and burning a hole in your side. 

Now hear a BS Truth that is universal...

If you so chose to R... there is only a limited amount of time... it depends... but... 6 months, 2 years, not much longer that you can grill the WS on the details. Even the C will not give you much love after the "TV Time Limit" has expired. Sorry for the truth... but this should be in the BS Handbook Post 1. 

But at 17 years, still in R, she has been faithful to the Nth... you options are very limited. Live with it or D. 

Hey... I not trying to be all Bad A$$ here... I'm in the same boat, it's off limits, my own IC pushed me out the door. Just the reality of the BS that chooses R.


----------



## tom67

RWB said:


> Hurtin, Hurtin, Hurtin...
> 
> I'm 4+ years into R with my FWW (multiple OM when caught).
> 
> I know somewhere I have posted in your past... Here the TRUTH... even if you get your wife to finally open up and tell you some details, she will withhold the worst and take them to the grave. For her it was 17 years ago, she has lived and buried them long ago. It means nothing to her now, "a thousand miles downstream". I know for you... it's 15 minutes ago and burning a hole in your side.
> 
> Now hear a BS Truth that is universal...
> 
> If you so chose to R... there is only a limited amount of time... it depends... but... 6 months, 2 years, not much longer that you can grill the WS on the details. Even the C will not give you much love after the "TV Time Limit" has expired. Sorry for the truth... but this should be in the BS Handbook Post 1.
> 
> But at 17 years, still in R, she has been faithful to the Nth... you options are very limited. Live with it or D.
> 
> Hey... I not trying to be all Bad A$$ here... I'm in the same boat, it's off limits, my own IC pushed me out the door. Just the reality of the BS that chooses R.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Dyokemm

"I will say that my wife would tell you that I am ...vindictive ...because I have remained hurt for so long."

This is just a CLEAR sign of how f'd up her sense of empathy truly is. She is totally selfish and that's the root of both her ONS and her refusal to deal with consequences for her actions.

And i would tell her and any therapist around to go yo h**l if they tried to tell me I was 'childish' and 'holding on too long' to my anger over something my spouse wasn't even repentant about.

F that...forgiveness is ONLY for people who show remorse and a willingness to repair the damage they have done (and IMO even then some wrongs are simply red lines I would never forgive or forget).

Give forgiveness to a person who isn't sorry for the injury the did me?

They're dreaming.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: When you find out the 'details' of the PA....*



RWB said:


> Hurtin, Hurtin, Hurtin...
> 
> I'm 4+ years into R with my FWW (multiple OM when caught).
> 
> I know somewhere I have posted in your past... Here the TRUTH... even if you get your wife to finally open up and tell you some details, she will withhold the worst and take them to the grave. For her it was 17 years ago, she has lived and buried them long ago. It means nothing to her now, "a thousand miles downstream". I know for you... it's 15 minutes ago and burning a hole in your side.
> 
> Now hear a BS Truth that is universal...
> 
> If you so chose to R... there is only a limited amount of time... it depends... but... 6 months, 2 years, not much longer that you can grill the WS on the details. Even the C will not give you much love after the "TV Time Limit" has expired. Sorry for the truth... but this should be in the BS Handbook Post 1.
> 
> But at 17 years, still in R, she has been faithful to the Nth... you options are very limited. Live with it or D.
> 
> Hey... I not trying to be all Bad A$$ here... I'm in the same boat, it's off limits, my own IC pushed me out the door. Just the reality of the BS that chooses R.


.....you're not being Bad A$$ ....you're bring blunt and honest. I respect that. 

....yes ...my wife has been faithful since. And in many endeavors ...supportive of me ...and a great mother. 

.....I suppose that all the details would be of little (or less) importance to me ...if my wife expressed real remorse. I have seen some minor glimmers of shame come from her ...and a hurting look in her eyes ....but, that was expressed in the therapists office. It's almost as if it doesn't count when it feels like a coerced confession. I want that to be expressed by her ...almost like it was second nature ...if you get where I'm coming from.


----------



## Dyokemm

But RWB has a great point.

After all this time, she isn't going to help you heal.

Either learn to deal with it, or D and free yourself from this selfish W.

Personally, I couldn't get to the door fast enough.

I can't stomach unrepentant, selfish people.


----------



## tom67

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....you're not being Bad A$$ ....you're bring blunt and honest. I respect that.
> 
> ....yes ...my wife has been faithful since. And in many endeavors ...supportive of me ...and a great mother.
> 
> .....I suppose that all the details would be of little (or less) importance to me ...if my wife expressed real remorse. I have seen some minor glimmers of shame come from her ...and a hurting look in her eyes ....but, that was expressed in the therapists office. It's almost as if it doesn't count when it feels like a coerced confession. I want that to be expressed by her ...almost like it was second nature ...if you get where I'm coming from.


Hurtin we all want the best for you.
Is the sex life at least 1 to 2 times a week?
Get the book married mans sex life primer it is a good read believe me us guys here have all been codependent at some point.
Your d will do fine if you decide to d.
Kids are VERY perceptive my d was at least she is going to be 16 soon.


----------



## warlock07

Why can't she give you his name ?


----------



## lordmayhem

warlock07 said:


> Why can't she give you his name ?


Because it might be someone close to them or known to them. I see no other logical explanation why not divulge the name if it was 17 years ago.

Imagine if it was some man who's been in your house, been out with, who was the one who your WW banged.

That's just my guess.


----------



## tom67

lordmayhem said:


> Because it might be someone close to them or known to them. I see no other logical explanation why not divulge the name if it was 17 years ago.
> 
> Imagine if it was some man who's been in your house, been out with, who was the one who your WW banged.
> 
> That's just my guess.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Sigh-yep.


----------



## Dyokemm

Me too.

I think LM hit the nail on the head.

And it is probably someone she has continued to encourage Hurtin' to have social interactions with, thus continuing and enhancing the betrayal.


----------



## Dyokemm

I think it is more likely someone they both know because of her sexual background as well.

If she had only been with Hurtin' before her ONS, then I think it is MUCH MORE likely that when she decided to stray it was with someone she already knew and trusted so she could still feel somewhat 'safe' (as stupid as that sounds in this situation).

Some random POS she met in a 'bowling alley' would not have given her that sense of security to go through with it for a variety of reasons (her lack of sexual experience/IQ for example)

But, if this was someone they know, it was probably more than a ONS, which is another reason she has resisted coming clean for 17 years.


----------



## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> I think it is more likely someone they both know because of her sexual background as well.
> 
> If she had only been with Hurtin' before her ONS, then I think it is MUCH MORE likely that when she decided to stray it was with someone she already knew and trusted so she could still feel somewhat 'safe' (as stupid as that sounds in this situation).
> 
> Some random POS she met in a 'bowling alley' would not have given her that sense of security to go through with it for a variety of reasons (her lack of sexual experience/IQ for example)
> 
> But, if this was someone they know, it was probably more than a ONS, which is another reason she has resisted coming clean for 17 years.


Hurtin has gotten great advice.
I wish him luck but I will not stay for the trainwreck.
Sorry.


----------



## Granny7

nuclearnightmare said:


> HURTIN
> 
> Another idea. Why not separate from your wife for 4-6 weeks or so. Live elsewhere and explain you're doing so to clear your head and think on whether you want to continue in the marriage. How would your wife react to that?


Nuclearnightmare, I think that is a good idea to separate!

I have been thinking about doing that myself. You know my story, 25 yrs. later and PTSD, it all came back as I couldn't deal with it back then and I never got the truth to anything I asked. All I got was anger and now I get, I don't remember, I put it out of my head a long time ago. I'm looking for a new marriage counselor, have moved into another room and he isn't going to touch me right now. I'm waiting for my grandson's to pass the bar in Feb. as I don't want to distract them from their studying for this 2 day, difficult test. None of the grandchildren know about their grandfather and they would be devastated if they knew. This isn't a good time for them to find out by any means. I am getting things in order in the house and they take it 6 weeks from now and then I will bring up a trial separation to get him to start thinking about what he is loosing, since he never suffered any consequences for what he did during those 3 hrs., nor how he caused me great pain for the 5 yrs. after the A due to him not telling me the truth. He only showed anger and hardly ever any remorse. My children think their dad can do no wrong and I'm wrong for bringing all this back up and ruin our family unit over something that happened over 25 yrs. ago. So after the Bar test, I want to either just go driving and find a place to stay when I want to stop. Or find an apartment in our area and move into it for a few months to give my stressful PTSD body a rest. It's really did a number on it, the stress that is. You might want to consider it, I sure am. I can't live without the truth anymore and he just sugarcoat's what he did, so he's left me no choice for me to settle my mind, find peace and decide what I want to do with my life once that occurs. You could do the same thing.

Blessings, young man and you are, you know, not 70 like me. We all deserve answers and most of all peace in our life. Just think about what I've said and don't end up still dealing with it a yr. from now. That includes finding out if she's your daughter in blood or not, that's so important.

Blessings, Granny7


----------



## TOMTEFAR

Another idea.

Go out with some friends and don't come home that night, stay with a friend or a hotel. Don't answer your phone. 

Even better would be to stage a photo of your friend and in the background have you be Close to a woman and then have your friend post that pic to facebook or something that your wife would see.

Get back the next day and don't tell her what you did.

Basically get her to beleive that you did something that you didn't do.


----------



## RWB

Dyokemm said:


> I think it is more likely someone they both know because of her sexual background as well.
> 
> If she had only been with Hurtin' before her ONS, then I think it is MUCH MORE likely that when she decided to stray it was with someone she already knew and trusted so she could still feel somewhat 'safe' (as stupid as that sounds in this situation).
> 
> Some random POS she met in a 'bowling alley' would not have given her that sense of security to go through with it for a variety of reasons (her lack of sexual experience/IQ for example)
> 
> *But, if this was someone they know, it was probably more than a ONS, which is another reason she has resisted coming clean for 17 years.*


_"It was only One-Time, I swear... hand reaching for the Bible"._ I got to personally witness this Whopper!

Bottom line, no one eve gets the full truth, some more... some less. The Cheater and the BS arrive at this no win scenario and there no where to go. 

The Cheater withholds, lies... due to shame, fear of D, trying to save some dignity... it really doesn't matter, it's all about the lies. The BS, presses and gets the minimal truth... probably already knows what told. 

Now here's the issue... Time rolls on by, months turn to years. The BS still knows there is more (lots). The Cheater still knows they have lies untold. But, Status Quo in the Cheater's mind is better than reliving DD again 5 years down the road. They also know that any tiny sliver of Trust that has been restored will evaporate in an instant. 

Detente... you can't have it... I can't have it.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

warlock07 said:


> Why can't she give you his name ?



.....(original reason ...given 18 years ago): *She's fearful I'll hunt him down and kill him.


.....(current reason ): *See above ...and, ...she says, "What good will it do / purpose does it serve ...it's 18 yrs ago".


.....is suppose it's a heck of a lot easier to find people these days with the internet and all the social media sites.


----------



## russell28

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....(original reason ...given 18 years ago): *She's fearful I'll hunt him down and kill him.
> 
> *Answer to this... "You didn't worry about me killng you both if I caught you.. you didn't think that I might kill myself when I found out.. You weren't fearful that I might have killed you both, then myself... stop protecting him, and do the right thing and be honest I'm not going to kill him, you know that, stop using it as your excuse."
> *
> 
> .....(current reason ): *See above ...and, ...she says, "What good will it do / purpose does it serve ...it's 18 yrs ago".
> *
> Answer to this... "The good it will do, is I can stop asking and finally put it behind me. I can start to work on getting closure, and not have to worry about going to my grave not knowing, because your secret is more important to you than your marriage. All your reasons are just excuses to protect yourself, and your affair partner, not to help me. The purpose it will serve is that we won't have to go another 18 years with me suffering and you in denial.*
> 
> 
> 
> .....is suppose it's a heck of a lot easier to find people these days with the internet and all the social media sites.


You can find him, but it's probably your brother or the guy next door... there's some reason she won't tell you, and it's not to protect you or help you. You're going to assume the worst if they won't tell you the truth, it's how the mind works.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

tom67 said:


> *Is the sex life at least 1 to 2 times a week?*
> Get the book married mans sex life primer it is a good read believe me us guys here have all been codependent at some point.


......:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

.......its a miracle is sex happens 6 times a year. And of course ...that's a perfect trigger jump start point ...starting the voices in my head, _"I guess I'm not "sexy" or desirable any more"?_
_(I should be clear ...I never thought that I was sexy either ...I was just making a point)_


----------



## mahike

The point is you need this information to move on. She is unwilling to give it. What are you willing to do? 

She does not believe you would leave her if she does not tell you but she is sure you will leave her if she tells you.

You need to flip the rules around on her. She needs to know that you will most likely stay if you know but there is no chance if she does not tell you.

You either have to file for a D or tell her to get out. Or you learn to live without this information


----------



## wilderness

Why are you putting up with a sex only 6x/yr? That's not a marriage. You should be having it 6x in 2 weeks, at least.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

wilderness said:


> Why are you putting up with a sex only 6x/yr? That's not a marriage. You should be having it 6x in 2 weeks, at least.



.....that's another of her 'answers' that she gives when we discussed that very subject in therapy. She says she does 'want' sex a lot more than I know ...but, she doesn't feel like it when I'm upset and angry all the time. It a frikkin' Catch 22 situation .....she won't "be' with me more ...because I'm hurt / angry ...and I can't feel like I'm "the one" unless she makes me feel more loved / desired.

...yup ...it sucks a lot.


----------



## CH

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...I was told by my wife today ...that because I wanted the 'details"...that "you are sick and need serious help". Well ...from what I've read regarding the topic ...I guess I'm not alone in my state of sickness.


You've never forgiven her....That's alot of resentment built up over the years there.

You need it for closure even if it means you might leave her after finding out all the dirty details. And that's why she won't tell you, because she knows you might leave. It's still about her and saving her @ss.

So, what are you going to do about it?


----------



## russell28

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....that's another of her 'answers' that she gives when we discussed that very subject in therapy. She says she does 'want' sex a lot more than I know ...but, she doesn't feel like it when I'm upset and angry all the time. It a frikkin' Catch 22 situation .....she won't "be' with me more ...because I'm hurt / angry ...and I can't feel like I'm "the one" unless she makes me feel more loved / desired.
> 
> ...yup ...it sucks a lot.


Her not being with you makes you more hurt and angry.. so she makes you angry, then tells you she can't be intimate with you because you're angry. That's not a catch 22, that's your wife being selfish and worrying about her only, and not you. She's cold as ice.. and she wants you to be warm? 

What does the therapist say to that? Did you point out that she's the source of the anger and hurt, because of her continuing to put her affair partner in front of you, and blame you for having feelings and wanting honesty and closure? What do they say when you mention that you're not feeling loved, desired by being told you're wrong to be hurt and angry.

Did you ask what she's doing for sex these days, has she been making any more insignificant dots on the timeline? Wife has affair, minimizes it.. shows little remorse, acts cold and withholds intimacy.... Do you suspect she has a lover? Still seeing the guy, but deep underground for this long?

Why's she still protecting him? Just keep asking that... over and over... why are you protecting him and your affair, is it self preservation? You still sleeping with him?


----------



## bandit.45

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....that's another of her 'answers' that she gives when we discussed that very subject in therapy. She says she does 'want' sex a lot more than I know ...*but, she doesn't feel like it when I'm upset and angry all the time*. It a frikkin' Catch 22 situation .....she won't "be' with me more ...because I'm hurt / angry ...and I can't feel like I'm "the one" unless she makes me feel more loved / desired.
> 
> ...yup ...it sucks a lot.


So on top of being a cheat she's also a manipulator. 

This woman has no remorse whatsoever. I'd be thinking of an exit strategy.


----------



## harrybrown

If she can't help with these problems, I agree on a divorce.

Her secrets are more important than your marriage.

Starting filing, she may wake up, but I doubt it. She does not respect you, this is not a life.

I would file and tell her that her OM and her secrets are still more important to her than you are. And she will not help, so it is time to end it.


----------



## wilderness

Don't give up, friend. It may seem bleak right now, but it can be overcome. 

Have you considered getting a gym membership and hitting the weights? This can really help with your self confidence. When other women start checking you out (and they will if you get ripped), your wife may change her tune.

Please, keep fighting for your marriage.


----------



## johnAdams

Per Mrs. Adams, she indeed answered every question I asked and often elaborated well beyond my original question. I have a vivid imagination and I found the answers were worse than I ever imagined. Are you ready for that possibility? Do you really want to know every sex position? Although honesty is the best policy, honesty can do you in. Do you want to live with all the mind movies the rest of your life? Do you really want to know if his is bigger than yours? (Actually one of the few areas I won in...lol). Per Jack Nicholson can you handle the truth?


----------



## Hurtin_Still

russell28 said:


> Her not being with you makes you more hurt and angry.. so she makes you angry, then tells you she can't be intimate with you because you're angry. That's not a catch 22, that's your wife being selfish and worrying about her only, and not you. She's cold as ice.. and she wants you to be warm?
> 
> What does the therapist say to that? Did you point out that she's the source of the anger and hurt, because of her continuing to put her affair partner in front of you, and blame you for having feelings and wanting honesty and closure? What do they say when you mention that you're not feeling loved, desired by being told you're wrong to be hurt and angry.
> 
> Did you ask what she's doing for sex these days, has she been making any more insignificant dots on the timeline? Wife has affair, minimizes it.. shows little remorse, acts cold and withholds intimacy.... Do you suspect she has a lover? Still seeing the guy, but deep underground for this long?
> 
> Why's she still protecting him? Just keep asking that... over and over... why are you protecting him and your affair, is it self preservation? You still sleeping with him?



.....I don't suspect any "lover" or anyone else since the ONS. We both are self-employed , work from home ...so I know where she is at all times. 

....she KNOWS she messed up big time ...but I really feel like she won't express it in ways that will make me feel better because:


she's ashamed of her actions that were SO far removed from her character ....I KNOW that bothers her ...because she was SO judgmental about those that stepped outside the marriage 
she thinks that I was so horribly inattentive to her for years before the ONS ...so she's still pi$$ed about that, again ...the shared blame crap

...the items that you mentioned related to the therapist ...are the main focus of the sessions lately ...and I'm working thru them. I think the wife gets miffed when I refer to her indiscretion as an 'affair'. She sees an affair as something that is carried out over a prolonged time period ...whereas the ONS ...is a 'minor' thing ...when comparing the two.


----------



## wilderness

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I don't suspect any "lover" or anyone else since the ONS. We both are self-employed , work from home ...so I know where she is at all times.
> 
> ....she KNOWS she messed up big time ...but I really feel like she won't express it in ways that will make me feel better because:
> 
> 
> she's ashamed of her actions that were SO far removed from her character ....I KNOW that bothers her ...because she was SO judgmental about those that stepped outside the marriage
> she thinks that I was so horribly inattentive to her for years before the ONS ...so she's still pi$$ed about that, again ...the shared blame crap
> 
> ...the items that you mentioned related to the therapist ...are the main focus of the sessions lately ...and I'm working thru them. I think the wife gets miffed when I refer to her indiscretion as an 'affair'. *She sees an affair as something that is carried out over a prolonged time period ...whereas the ONS ...is a 'minor' thing ...when comparing the two*.


I agree with your wife on the bolded part. A ONS is a one time indiscretion whereas an A is multiple times. As far as I'm concerned, having sex with someone that isn't your spouse 10x is 10x as bad as doing it once. Just my opinion.


----------



## tom67

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I don't suspect any "lover" or anyone else since the ONS. We both are self-employed , work from home ...so I know where she is at all times.
> 
> ....she KNOWS she messed up big time ...but I really feel like she won't express it in ways that will make me feel better because:
> 
> 
> she's ashamed of her actions that were SO far removed from her character ....I KNOW that bothers her ...because she was SO judgmental about those that stepped outside the marriage
> she thinks that I was so horribly inattentive to her for years before the ONS ...so she's still pi$$ed about that, again ...the shared blame crap
> 
> ...the items that you mentioned related to the therapist ...are the main focus of the sessions lately ...and I'm working thru them. I think the wife gets miffed when I refer to her indiscretion as an 'affair'. She sees an affair as something that is carried out over a prolonged time period ...whereas the ONS ...is a 'minor' thing ...when comparing the two.


Bottom line is she will not give you what you need to heal.
You can't change her but you can change what you will and will not tolerate.
Someday you will be sick and tired of being sick and tired. At least I hope so.


----------



## johnAdams

*She sees an affair as something that is carried out over a prolonged time period ...whereas the ONS ...is a 'minor' thing ...when comparing the two.
*
I do not think that many married women have a real ONS. There was an emotional attachment prior to the sex. There may have been a one time only sexual encounter but not really a ONS.


----------



## russell28

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I don't suspect any "lover" or anyone else since the ONS. We both are self-employed , work from home ...so I know where she is at all times.
> 
> ....she KNOWS she messed up big time ...but I really feel like she won't express it in ways that will make me feel better because:
> 
> 
> she's ashamed of her actions that were SO far removed from her character ....I KNOW that bothers her ...because she was SO judgmental about those that stepped outside the marriage
> she thinks that I was so horribly inattentive to her for years before the ONS ...so she's still pi$$ed about that, again ...the shared blame crap
> 
> ...the items that you mentioned related to the therapist ...are the main focus of the sessions lately ...and I'm working thru them. I think the wife gets miffed when I refer to her indiscretion as an 'affair'. She sees an affair as something that is carried out over a prolonged time period ...whereas the ONS ...is a 'minor' thing ...when comparing the two.


What is she Bill Clinton? Now she can make up her own definitions of what cheating is?

I agree, long term affair.. much more major than ONS, in SOME ways.... In some ways, a ONS shows other issues. A person in a LTA might need to be broken down for months or years to get to the point where they'd cross a boundary, where a ONS person might get to that point in ten minutes and two beers. 

She can't redefine what cheating is now.. say that 'affairs' are only long term affairs, and now one night stands no longer qualify, because it suits her agenda. If it looks like a duck and quacks.... 

Read this a few times, and keep reading it... then relay it to your wife and therapist until they understand.

By protecting the affair partner, you are showing that they are more important than the spouse. You are showing that your own shame is more important than your spouses ability to heal. 

It's not good that you work together, move to the other side of the house. Don't work in only sweat pants, dress up. Take her out to lunch. Work on yourself.. be good to yourself, since it doesn't sound like your wife is being very good to you.

You should go have a ONS.. it's not that big a deal, it's minor... hire an escort, I'm sure she'd understand since it'd be just a tiny blip on the timeline of life that will blink and go away.


----------



## russell28

wilderness said:


> I agree with your wife on the bolded part. A ONS is a one time indiscretion whereas an A is multiple times. As far as I'm concerned, having sex with someone that isn't your spouse 10x is 10x as bad as doing it once. Just my opinion.


Yea, and it's better if they only stick it in half way... with eyes closed in the dark.

You eventually learn that it's not only about sex.. especially with women, it usually has more to do with emotional attachment, and trading affection and attention for sex.. 1x is usually bull crap..... A true ONS usually means other problems, drugs, wh0rry... etc... So LTA over years, she at least 'thinks' she loves the OM.. ONS, she requires less effort to break down the boundaries..


----------



## tom67

russell28 said:


> Yea, and it's better if they only stick it in half way... with eyes closed in the dark.
> 
> You eventually learn that it's not only about sex.. especially with women, it usually has more to do with emotional attachment, and trading affection and attention for sex.. 1x is usually bull crap..... A true ONS usually means other problems, drugs, wh0rry... etc... So LTA over years, she at least 'thinks' she loves the OM.. ONS, she requires less effort to break down the boundaries..


In cheater speak one time may mean ten times I personally would not believe a thing she says.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....you're not being Bad A$$ ....you're bring blunt and honest. I respect that.
> 
> ....yes ...my wife has been faithful since. And in many endeavors ...supportive of me ...and a great mother.
> 
> .....I suppose that all the details would be of little (or less) importance to me ...if my wife expressed real remorse. I have seen some minor glimmers of shame come from her ...and a hurting look in her eyes ....but, that was expressed in the therapists office. It's almost as if it doesn't count when it feels like a coerced confession. I want that to be expressed by her ...almost like it was second nature ...if you get where I'm coming from.


her not telling you the guy's name......inexcusable, wretched


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> .......its a miracle is sex happens 6 times a year. And of course ...that's a perfect trigger jump start point ...starting the voices in my head, _"I guess I'm not "sexy" or desirable any more"?_
> _(I should be clear ...I never thought that I was sexy either ...I was just making a point)_



where is your wife on the 'looks spectrum' ?? is she higher up or lower down than you, or about the same....


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....that's another of her 'answers' that she gives when we discussed that very subject in therapy. She says she does 'want' sex a lot more than I know ...but, she doesn't feel like it when I'm upset and angry all the time. It a frikkin' Catch 22 situation .....she won't "be' with me more ...because I'm hurt / angry ...and I can't feel like I'm "the one" unless she makes me feel more loved / desired.
> 
> ...yup ...it sucks a lot.


is she affectionate with you, generally? kissing, cuddling, holding, hugging etc. ??


----------



## nuclearnightmare

johnAdams said:


> Per Mrs. Adams, she indeed answered every question I asked and often elaborated well beyond my original question. I have a vivid imagination and I found the answers were worse than I ever imagined. Are you ready for that possibility? Do you really want to know every sex position? Although honesty is the best policy, honesty can do you in. Do you want to live with all the mind movies the rest of your life? Do you really want to know if his is bigger than yours? (Actually one of the few areas I won in...lol). Per Jack Nicholson can you handle the truth?


don't you suppose he alerady has a good batch of mind movies anyway.....for the past 18 yrs? he's been asking all that time but she has been steadfast in not answering. I think she is the one that cannot handle the truth........


----------



## theroad

rrrbbbttt said:


> This was written by Mrs. John Adams and given to John Adams. When I read it I only wished my wife had written it and/or sent it to me. I still argue with myself as to whether or not I should give it to my wife as the situation is very similar to the Adams. Maybe you should give this to your wife so that she may understand.
> 
> I cannot undo what i have done or said but i can promise to do better. I promise to love and cherish you all the days of my life. I promise to put your feelings before mine. I promise to be there for you when you need to cry, when you need me to squeeze your hand, when you need me to say how very much i love you. I promise to be the kind of wife you have always deserved. The kind of wife God provided for you 41 years ago and i messed up. I stole the innocence of our youth and instead gave you a life of pain. I cannot take it away but i can do better.
> 
> I have always loved you and i sure have a poor way if showing it. I loved myself first. I am not worthy of your love or loyalty but i am so thankful for it.
> 
> Please forgive me and give me the chance to prove to you how very sorry i am for hurting you.


Which Mr and Mrs Adams are you talking about?


----------



## theroad

lordmayhem said:


> Because it might be someone close to them or known to them. I see no other logical explanation why not divulge the name if it was 17 years ago.
> 
> Imagine if it was some man who's been in your house, been out with, who was the one who your WW banged.
> 
> That's just my guess.



Exactly that. And I will add it can also be an enemy of here BH as well as a friend.


----------



## theroad

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I am so very sorry you have had to endure this. Since I am a ww, I understand some of her apprehension in not wanting to tell you everything...but she owes it to you to answer your questions. She after all is the one who wronged you.
> 
> I am sad that in our own situation...I spilled my guts and gave way too many details I shouldn't have...but had I not been honest and answered his questions, I doubt we could have worked on reconciliation.
> 
> I can understand that if you put her on the defensive, she is going to be resentful. So your approach has to be lovingly probing. She is obviously frightened at the outcome. Reassurance goes a long way.
> 
> When my husband asked me questions...it was never in a threatening manner. He was very matter of fact. He was pretty unemotional until later bless his heart. What I put him through!
> 
> I wish the best for you.


One I guess this is the Mrs J Adams that was referred to before.

You were better to be honest then lie. The thing is a WW is to let the BH control the level of details the BH gets by the questions he asks.

Example if a BH asks WW did you have sex with the OM.

Best WW answer is: yes.

The WW did not trickle truth. She did not lie by omission.

Worst answer is: yes, we had sex over 100 times, it was the best sex I ever had, OM was huge, he would do at least 4 times every night we spent together.

WW did not trickle truth though she did not let the BH control the amount of information that he heard.

Once a BH hears an answer he can never unhear it. In this example the WW may of told the BH things he can never handle.

The BH did not ask how many times, size, performance, was the OM better.

Whether intentional or not in this example the WW rubbed the affair in her BH's face, ears, and the back of his neck.


----------



## rrrbbbttt

theroad said:


> Which Mr and Mrs Adams are you talking about?


It was a statement from another thread were JohnAdams the a poster on this thread allowed us to read what Mrs John Adams, also posted on this thread, had written to him.

It had an impact and I thought it expressed an understanding by the WS of what the Affair had caused.

I believe many WS do not really understand the extent of the betrayal and this was direct and indicated an understanding that many WS never attain.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

nuclearnightmare said:


> where is your wife on the 'looks spectrum' ?? is she higher up or lower down than you, or about the same....


....well ...I'd always say she's prettier than me ...for what it's worth. I'm decent enough looking I suppose ...but I'll never be on the cover of GQ ....nor did I ever desire to be.

....she's put on a good deal of weight over the past 15 yrs or so ....and I've NEVER made (negative) commentary about it to her. Meaning ....I've never said anything derogatory or hurtful to her about it ..or used it as a 'weapon' in an argument. And ...it's never been a deterrent to my physical desire for her ...

....she ...for lack of a better term ...has "got curves". But ...I was attracted to her intelligence ....and two of the most incredible ....eyes. (they rival Elizabeth Taylor's ...seriously). And, I have not been able to just sit across a table from her and stare into those eyes ...since she hurt me. And ....as simplistic as it may sound ...that kills me.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

nuclearnightmare said:


> is she affectionate with you, generally? kissing, cuddling, holding, hugging etc. ??



....not on her own ...I need to initiate ....and I would have to have been on my "best behavior" for a few days prior ...so she's less angry with me.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....not on her own ...I need to initiate ....and I would have to have been on my "best behavior" for a few days prior ...so she's less angry with me.


OP

Ok thanks. Just trying to get a better feel for your wife's personality, how she presents.......

I sometimes wonder if there is seldom sex, seldom affection then what's the point of sleeping together. ......I think my reaction would be set up my own room. Or tell her to - I.e. kick her out. Not a key recommendation from me, just a throw away thought.....

When you ask her to provide more info on her adultery, do you ever emphasize suspicions that what happened could be quite different than what she has told you, I.e. she's been lying to you all these years (e.g. it was someone you know, it was an ongoing affair etc)
I.e. several posters deduce that her evasiveness is because she is hiding something. I think they make a compelling case. Ever challenge her on that aspect??


----------



## sidney2718

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....I don't suspect any "lover" or anyone else since the ONS. We both are self-employed , work from home ...so I know where she is at all times.
> 
> ....she KNOWS she messed up big time ...but I really feel like she won't express it in ways that will make me feel better because:
> 
> 
> she's ashamed of her actions that were SO far removed from her character ....I KNOW that bothers her ...because she was SO judgmental about those that stepped outside the marriage
> she thinks that I was so horribly inattentive to her for years before the ONS ...so she's still pi$$ed about that, again ...the shared blame crap
> 
> ...the items that you mentioned related to the therapist ...are the main focus of the sessions lately ...and I'm working thru them. I think the wife gets miffed when I refer to her indiscretion as an 'affair'. She sees an affair as something that is carried out over a prolonged time period ...whereas the ONS ...is a 'minor' thing ...when comparing the two.


I'm going to be straight with you. You and your wife are finished. It would serve you (and your wife) well if you could hold it together long enough to have an amicable divorce. There is no sense enriching lawyers needlessly.

After that, you have a major job to do on yourself. You have to face the fact that you probably did put her through hell during much of the marriage. That is not an excuse for the ONS, but it is still important. You have to get help in working out why you did that. 

You would probably agree that one should not have a revenge affair. By the same token, the fact that your wife angered you because of the ONS does not really give you the right to be angry with her for 18 years. That's revenge anger in spades.

It does not matter now. This marriage is over. But you will go on from here and hopefully have a full and wonderful life. But learn how to deal with the anger or it will destroy any new relationship you have.

Sorry to put it so bluntly, but I felt that it had to be said.


----------



## Dyokemm

"By the same token, the fact that your wife angered you because of the ONS does not really give you the right to be angry with her for 18 years. That's revenge anger in spades."

Not if she is unrepentant and unwilling to deal with the consequences of what she did.

But it is true that long ago he should have simply filed and dumped her after he realized she was NEVER going to give him true remorse for her actions or the details and help he needed to heal.


----------



## LongWalk

Hurtin Still,

Your tormented marriage has gone on long enough. Time to make it happy. Time to get rid of the anger. Time to become an equal in your marriage.

Throughout your thread you have drawn lines in the sand that you will not cross, and yet they are key to making you and your wife happy again.

1) You refuse to consider divorce. As long as your wife knows you do not have the courage to live without her, she has no need to change anything.

2) You refuse to DNA test your daughter. Ostensibly, doing this test in secret would hurt her. This is illogical. First, she need not know about the result. If she is your daughter, you may discover your anger about the affair the desire for details, simply vanishes. You will have gained knowledge about the affair and taken some measure of control back.

There is also a chance that your daughter is not your biological child. Knowing this guarantees that your wife will change her tune.

The DNA test is only a win-win situation for you. Why don't you see it? Could it be that you wish to cling to the anger. You are used to it it is your way or life. But it has ruined the past 18 years.

The testing of DNA testing and the consideration of divorce would break the deadlock.

re: your sexless marriage
You have been having sex so irregularly that it has further destroyed the bond between you and your wife. But instead of having sex 6 times a year, you need to fix your relationship.

re: Nice guy
You are a nice guy but then you resent having been nice and getting mistreated in return. You resent. Stop being nice and your resentment will disappear.

re: Lack of confidence
You make many assertions about being unattractive. This is more unattractive than being ugly because for women self confidence and humor are often more important that money or organ size. Ed Powers (born Mark Arnold Krinsky) became a famous porn actor producer. His equipment was small and he had a round out of shape gut, but he could get amateur women to go crazy with him.

Attitude is essential. The day you feel better about yourself, your wife will be attracted to you, or at least she will do a double take.

One key point: you describe how you are attracted to your wife. That is great. Imagine how terrible it feels for a guy who does not like eating breakfast with his wife or seeing her pull up her stockings. If your wife does not give this beauty to you, well, you don't have it and you are not enjoying it. So, you have to win it.

The other alternative is to divorce and find someone new. Do you dare?

Either you want to fix things or you don't.


----------



## Granny7

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....not on her own ...I need to initiate ....and I would have to have been on my "best behavior" for a few days prior ...so she's less angry with me.


Hurtin_Still,
I keep writing to you as our stories are similar, but yet they are not. My WH actually took me to her home for a Christmas party, so I then knew what she looked like. Then the two of them had the nerve to ask both spouses out to have a drink together???? Then he asked me to come have a drink with him and a group from his office, which included her. Talk about nerve! Then he took on weekends to the same places we celebrated anniversaries together. What kind of man would do something like that? A man with no morals, character, conscious and I feel, doesn't know the real meaning of love. 

Your talking about finding out the name of this one night stand? I would bet that it's someone that you know. If she's never been with anyone but you, just like my WH and I use to be, their would have to have been a deeper connection to sleep with him. Only if she was so drunk in a bar or something, would she possibly go up to bed with him, even if it's only one night. That's why I feel it's someone you know and she's protecting him for fear of what you might do to him. I wouldn't blame you of course. I would tell her that she needs to go and sleep in the other room. That is what I have done. Except that I didn't want to sleep in our room, I went to the guest room. The only bad part about that is, it's the same bed that he slept with me while he was cheating on me for 3 yrs. Making love, or as I look at it now, sex! I don't believe that anyone who cheats can really love their spouse. If they did, they wouldn't take the chance of hurting them. He says he did, I don't believe him. I'll never believe anything else he says as I can never trust him the way I did before the A and even then, I couldn't trust him on drinking. 

We had another huge blow-up this evening and it was all about how he could live with me all that time, look me in the face, be late coming home from work when I thought he was at a meeting. He was able to lie and deceive me for over 3 yrs. Sleep with her after only 8 months, just to be able to have some time together without looking over your shoulder? He would sacrifice his marriage for that, you know what? Now this man is no dummy, you would have thought about what would happen if he was caught, but he was to wrapped up in her to think, PERIOD! I could go on and on, but you can see how it still stays with me 25 yrs. later. That's why you've got to find out your answers NOW! Give her an ultimatum, either tell you or leave. Don't be doing this like me 8 yrs. later, it's not worth it.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

sidney2718 said:


> I'm going to be straight with you. You and your wife are finished. It would serve you (and your wife) well if you could hold it together long enough to have an amicable divorce. There is no sense enriching lawyers needlessly.
> 
> After that, you have a major job to do on yourself. You have to face the fact that you probably did put her through hell during much of the marriage. That is not an excuse for the ONS, but it is still important. You have to get help in working out why you did that.
> 
> You would probably agree that one should not have a revenge affair. By the same token, the fact that your wife angered you because of the ONS does not really give you the right to be angry with her for 18 years. That's revenge anger in spades.
> 
> It does not matter now. This marriage is over. But you will go on from here and hopefully have a full and wonderful life. But learn how to deal with the anger or it will destroy any new relationship you have.
> 
> Sorry to put it so bluntly, but I felt that it had to be said.


Why would he be angry going into his next relationship? I think you're making some unfounded assumptions about his mental state. His anger is directed at one individual as far as I can tell, and for reasons wholly understandable....


----------



## sidney2718

Dyokemm said:


> "By the same token, the fact that your wife angered you because of the ONS does not really give you the right to be angry with her for 18 years. That's revenge anger in spades."
> 
> Not if she is unrepentant and unwilling to deal with the consequences of what she did.
> 
> But it is true that long ago he should have simply filed and dumped her after he realized she was NEVER going to give him true remorse for her actions or the details and help he needed to heal.


I don't agree. Affairs do not give the BS the right to brutalize their spouses. WS are human beings. Remember that.

We here often say that folks should divorce instead of having affairs. By the same token the BS should divorce after realizing that the anger isn't going away. It would have saved 18 years of hell for both of them.


----------



## Dyokemm

Sidney,

I think being angry and somewhat distant/detached from someone who has severely injured you is a far cry from 'brutalize'.

It is a huge exaggeration.

But I do agree that he should have left her unrepentant a** soon after the A since she was still wanting to protect POSOM and herself.

And I don't think simply being a human being entitles you to sympathy, understanding, and care when that same person is continuing to act like a cruel, unremorseful, narcissist who only cares about their own feelings and desires and doesn't give 2 s***s about the person she is supposed to be closest to in the world.

Continue to view her as a hapless and innocent victim if you want, but she is anything but that.

She could end this entire situation/problem at any time by simply confessing the truth to her BH instead of calling him 'sick' and saying he needs help because he is finally demanding the truth and refusing to continue rugsweeping her bulls**t.


----------



## Granny7

Dyokemm said:


> "By the same token, the fact that your wife angered you because of the ONS does not really give you the right to be angry with her for 18 years. That's revenge anger in spades."
> 
> Not if she is unrepentant and unwilling to deal with the consequences of what she did.
> 
> But it is true that long ago he should have simply filed and dumped her after he realized she was NEVER going to give him true remorse for her actions or the details and help he needed to heal.


Dyokemm,
I don't think it's fair to jump all over him because he hasn't found out the truth in 18 yrs. I tried for 5 and got trickle truth, but still don't know the whole story. I just finally decided to forgive & move on for another 20 yrs. But I wasn't even thinking about it during those 20 yrs. except during a trigger, like the anniversary of when I found out, or her birthday. Now, due to his lack of treating me good for the past 4 yrs., drinking more, I questioned his fidelity after all this time. Then my mind went back to all those questions that I never got answers to. Some, I couldn't bear to deal with, I was already suicidal due to his lies and trickle truth for a yr. So I had to move on for my sanity and at that time I still loved him and hoped for a better life again after the A. Now 25 yrs. later after it all came back, we are on the verge of divorcing. I keep asking myself, why do I want to be with a man that could look me in the face, lie, cheat, no respect for me or love. Why do I want a person like that with no scruples about him? So many questions and so much anger over a marriage that I thought was so good. I loved him so much, but he was a selfish person, someone younger comes along, flirts with him and he totally can forget about the wife who did everything for him but kiss his feet. If I sound like I am angry, yes I am. He took something that I thought was special to only us, since we had only been together and ground it in the dirt. How a human being, if that's what you can call a person who cheats on you, then lies after he is caught a human being doesn't set right with me. He's not the man I married, nor is it fair after all that we went through in our marriage to get to where we were for him to be willing to throw it all away on a hou++e. Not going to marry her, never thought about it, was in it for the EXTRA attention and she was new. She wasn't much younger than I was, I looked as young as she did and he couldn't have asked for anyone else who gave him everything he wanted and then some. He took that and her too and could look in the mirror. I hope that mirror doesn't crack on him when I separate and he's left to himself, which he hates. He never thought of the consequences of what could happen and I was told, but dutiful me thought he was telling the truth. Never again, as the only person I will ever trust again is myself. So it all comes down to, I didn't think of all these things for all those yrs. You can't sweep something under the rug as it turns to mold and that's what has happened to both of us. All I see that he should insist on or she would be out the door, is the name of the OM. Sorry if I came off strong, it's been a very bad day, week or month, it all runs together. And also mine didn't show remorse, try to make up for what he did, he just lied to me about everything. Only 25 yrs. later is he now trying to make up for it. I still endured another 25 yrs. after the A of him drinking to much. Left him twice due to it and only 2 yrs. ago did he decide to stop drinking, but I think it's to late for us. I can't get over the fact that he lied to me all that time and made a fool out of me also. I'm making love to a man that I think is my H and he truly is not, he's got someone on the side and no matter what I do to be even more sexy, he's not as interested as he use to be.


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> Hurtin Still,
> 
> Your tormented marriage has gone on long enough. Time to make it happy. Time to get rid of the anger. Time to become an equal in your marriage.
> 
> Throughout your thread you have drawn lines in the sand that you will not cross, and yet they are key to making you and your wife happy again.
> 
> 1) You refuse to consider divorce. As long as your wife knows you do not have the courage to live without her, she has no need to change anything.
> 
> 2) You refuse to DNA test your daughter. Ostensibly, doing this test in secret would hurt her. This is illogical. First, she need not know about the result. If she is your daughter, you may discover your anger about the affair the desire for details, simply vanishes. You will have gained knowledge about the affair and taken some measure of control back.
> 
> There is also a chance that your daughter is not your biological child. Knowing this guarantees that your wife will change her tune.
> 
> The DNA test is only a win-win situation for you. Why don't you see it? Could it be that you wish to cling to the anger. You are used to it it is your way or life. But it has ruined the past 18 years.
> 
> The testing of DNA testing and the consideration of divorce would break the deadlock.
> 
> re: your sexless marriage
> You have been having sex so irregularly that it has further destroyed the bond between you and your wife. But instead of having sex 6 times a year, you need to fix your relationship.
> 
> re: Nice guy
> You are a nice guy but then you resent having been nice and getting mistreated in return. You resent. Stop being nice and your resentment will disappear.
> 
> re: Lack of confidence
> You make many assertions about being unattractive. This is more unattractive than being ugly because for women self confidence and humor are often more important that money or organ size. Ed Powers (born Mark Arnold Krinsky) became a famous porn actor producer. His equipment was small and he had a round out of shape gut, but he could get amateur women to go crazy with him.
> 
> Attitude is essential. The day you feel better about yourself, your wife will be attracted to you, or at least she will do a double take.
> 
> One key point: you describe how you are attracted to your wife. That is great. Imagine how terrible it feels for a guy who does not like eating breakfast with his wife or seeing her pull up her stockings. If your wife does not give this beauty to you, well, you don't have it and you are not enjoying it. So, you have to win it.
> 
> The other alternative is to divorce and find someone new. Do you dare?
> 
> Either you want to fix things or you don't.


SIGH this^^^:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Dyokemm

Granny,

I'm not jumping on him at all.

I don't think less of him as a person because he stayed and tried to work with a cruel woman that he still happened to love.

I am just stating that my opinion is that he would be in a much better place today if he had made a strong move to enforce respect for himself at the time.

She might have stayed unrepentant and they would be D right now but he would have freed himself to move on in life.

It might have scared her into finally giving up her selfish bs and allowed them to move towards healing and closure.

My point being that he has allowed this situation to go on for 18 years because ONLY a strong demand for truth and respect or else a D will break this impasse.

She is not going to do it otherwise because she knows he will not leave and give her a real consequence...or at least she has learned that expectation over the last 18 years.

He has to break their cycle if he wants a different result here.

Continuing this pattern will only result in more of the same.


----------



## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> Granny,
> 
> I'm not jumping on him at all.
> 
> I don't think less of him as a person because he stayed and tried to work with a cruel woman that he still happened to love.
> 
> I am just stating my opinion that my opinion is that he would be in a much better place today if he had made a strong move to enforce respect for himself at the time.
> 
> She might have stayed unrepentant and they would be D right now but he would have freed himself to move on in life.
> 
> It might have scared her into finally giving up her selfish bs and allowed them to move towards healing and closure.
> 
> My point being that he has allowed this situation to go on for 18 years because ONLY a strong demand for truth and respect or else a D will break this impasse.
> 
> She is not going to do it otherwise because she knows he will not leave and give her a real consequence...or at least she has learned that expectation over the last 18 years.
> 
> He has to break their cycle if he wants a different result here.
> 
> Continuing this pattern will only result in more of the same.


:iagree:
Dog chasing his tail.
Well I think we are whipping the dead horse here.
Sad really.


----------



## Granny7

Dyokemm,
I hear what you are saying and so much of it is right. I was just trying to let you know that sometimes you just can't get a CS to tell you the truth. His situation is very extreme when she won't tell him the name of the OM. He is letting her get away with a lot and that doesn't make her respect him. I even blame myself for not divorcing my CH when I finally found out all that I could in 8 months. I could have divorced him then and so regret that I didn't. I was in such a fragile state at that time. I had Melanoma, very extensive 6 weeks after finding out about the A and 8 months after my 4th. D-day, I had a total hysterectomy. The stress caused the latter one. But I'm giving myself a pass also. Nothing stopped me from kicking him out the door after finding out that they went out on the first weekend together after only knowing each other for 8 months. I don't know what I was thinking? I went from shock, to denial, then hurt, all before anger. I was still in the hurt stage when I kept finding out more lies. I cried in pain, not in rage after finding out these things. That's when I tried to take my life, so the pain was greater than the anger at that time. He does need to draw a line in the sand and I do know that if my CS had not told me the name of the person, their would have been hell to pay and he would have been out the door. But still I had to meet with the OW to get information as all I kept getting from him was lies. Do all men lie when they are caught? I'd love to know the percentage or I should say CS's, not just men. I think we all get to a point where we are scared to make a move one way or the other. I was giving up a special love that I thought we had and couldn't believe that he shared it with her and took it away from us. He has got to draw that line, not do what I did. That's why I'm trying to help him. Don't be in the place that I'm in now, should have divorced him 25 yrs. ago, am now 70 and if and I believe that we will, separate for medical reason's, my 2 daughters have already threatened to disown me. My 7 grandchildren do not know about this and most of them are 18 and older and they will be devastated, not sure how they will take it. I know it will tear up the family and I hate that. But I can no longer live with a man that doesn't know what empathy means, nor the true meaning of love. If he did he wouldn't be angry with me now for wanting him to give me any detail that I want, don't care how many times I ask him. He's narcisstic and self-centered and selfish and that's what got him to where he is now. He's thinking of how it's going to break up our family, now he doesn't want to go to our granddaughter's graduation from college this spring, so again he's only thinking of himself. He didn't worry about breaking up our family back then, so why now. Our grandchildren love both of us, but they have high morals. I can't believe that they are going to look at him the same way after we separate and I'm not taking responsibility for it either. Anyway, I do agree with you, but was just pointing out that their are other reasons dealing with spouses that won't tell you the truth and sometimes reasons you just go along with it at the time, like I did. It was a mistake though and I'll be the first to say that. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Dyokemm

Granny,

I am very sorry to hear about what happened to you.

Believe me when I say I don't judge or look down on any BS like yourself that struggles with what to do after discovering such a betrayal by the person they loved the most.

I do not think any less of them for trying to save their M's either.

I only offer my view on how to regain or protect the self-esteem and dignity I think is vital to all of us....and I know I can be direct and blunt at times (though I hope never attacking...I never call them disparaging terms or put them down).

No one who has been a decent and honest person should ever tolerate cruel and selfish people treating them with such hurt and contempt.

And it is their right to have ALL of those who have wronged them answer for the injuries they have done in whatever manner they deem most appropriate for each: divorce. exposure, whatever....personally I don't even oppose RA's if the BS believes they must get payback, though I know many disagree on that.

This is why I find Hurtin's WW to be so disgusting in her choices. Her refusal to divulge denies him the remorse for her actions he deserves from her as well as the opportunity for justice from the POS who helped injure him and his family.


----------



## russell28

sidney2718 said:


> I don't agree. Affairs do not give the BS the right to brutalize their spouses. WS are human beings. Remember that.
> 
> We here often say that folks should divorce instead of having affairs. By the same token the BS should divorce after realizing that the anger isn't going away. It would have saved 18 years of hell for both of them.


If she doesn't like being 'brutalized' she can leave... It doesn't sound like he's beating her up, or abusing her mentally or physically, he's just asking her to answer a simple question and she won't.

If this 'human' wants to stop the hell she's created for herself (as she described it), then all she has to do is be honest with her husband.. It's a simple formula really. Don't over complicate it with your hyperbole. 

His wife cheats, then refuses to come clean, then tells him he's to blame, then gas lights him and tells him he's wrong to feel angry and that he's wrong to still feel hurt. She withholds affection and sex and continues to make him feel like he's second rate. Yet you think he's the one that's abusing her? I think you have it backwards.

So to summarize.. she can file for D just as easily as he can. If she feels brutalized, she knows where the door is.. That also would have saved 18 years of hell, or even how about she just tell him who the OM is? There's another option....


----------



## dogman

wilderness said:


> I agree with your wife on the bolded part. A ONS is a one time indiscretion whereas an A is multiple times. As far as I'm concerned, having sex with someone that isn't your spouse 10x is 10x as bad as doing it once. Just my opinion.



This is crazy!!!

It's like asking would you rather be blinded by acid or paralyzed from a spinal injury. BOTH SUCK! And not everyone will agree on what's worse.

Fact is if either happens I don't want my wife to be the one that does it to me.


----------



## Jellybeans

*....does it ever make sense, or serve a purpose, to never want to replicate, duplicate, perform, act out ...etc ...in any manner, way, form that to other POS did with your wife, partner, etc?
*

Not for me but to each their own.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

russell28 said:


> If she doesn't like being *'brutalized'* she can leave... It doesn't sound like he's beating her up, or abusing her mentally or physically, he's just asking her to answer a simple question and she won't.
> 
> If this 'human' wants to stop the hell she's created for herself (as she described it), then all she has to do is be honest with her husband.. It's a simple formula really. Don't over complicate it with your hyperbole.
> 
> His wife cheats, then refuses to come clean, then tells him he's to blame, then gas lights him and tells him he's wrong to feel angry and that he's wrong to still feel hurt. She withholds affection and sex and continues to make him feel like he's second rate. Yet you think he's the one that's abusing her? I think you have it backwards.
> 
> So to summarize.. she can file for D just as easily as he can. If she feels brutalized, she knows where the door is.. That also would have saved 18 years of hell, or even how about she just tell him who the OM is? There's another option....



.....took a while to read all the subsequent posts after my last one ...maybe a few minutes longer because I had to fight through all the slings & arrows and pull a few out of me body.

....let me make something clear ....yes I'm angry ...and I hurt .....and my ego and "manhood" has been severely bruised ....that's a given. But, I have never* 'brutalized"* my wife ...though maybe ....if presented with *that* specific choice of words for her to use ...she may say that is a good description. She'll will say that my having flash backs ...occasional emotional breakdowns (aka: crying) ...and triggers ....is my way of punishing her .....and that I want to punish her rather than putting this all behind me and moving forward. 

....that said ...I do not actively present my anger to her ...nor do I go on an purposeful offensive to hurt her in anyway. In fact I'm very protective of her ...and maybe that's part of the hyper-vigilance that a BS displays. But I do protect her nevertheless... 

.....let me give an example of something semi-recent. Other than on these boards ...I've discussed my wife's ONS with NO ONE but my therapist, and ONE friend. Said friend, was my teenage (when 16 yrs old) girlfriend ...my "first love" if you will. I came across her contact info (she lives several hundred miles away) on one of those schoolmates / reunion type sites ...and I e-mailed her. This was about 5 yrs after my wife's ONS. There was that immediate "wow how are you" type stuff ...lotsa' reminiscing ....and so on. At some point the conversations got more personal ...discussing things in our own married lives ...and the issues we deal with. I confided in her with my struggles pertaining to the wife's ONS ...she in me with her spouse's alcoholism and reckless ways with money. We were GREAT childhood friends before we were dating as teens ..and there was always that 'connection' that allowed us to really talk. At some point her husband invited me to their home for a milestone b'day surprise party for her ...and my wife went too. So ...we've all met ...yadda yadda. And over the years we talked on facebook, e-mails etc. I'm positive my wife had jealousy about this ...but it was really all on the up and up ...and as "overly falsely flirtatious" as she was ...there was no EA or anything like that (before anyone asks). As a true friend, I'd say that a certain love existed for her ....just as it did for one of my best male friends from my grade school years ...who was hit and killed by a tractor trailer ...2 days after grade-school graduation. Those friends that you have a sincere love for are difficult to part ways with. But ...several months ago in a ridiculously mundane face-book message session with my teen years girlfriend (we were discussing "what's for dinner") ...she made a rather disparaging remark about my wife's weight gain and appearance. At THAT point ...mid message ...I logged off from messenger ...and "un-friended" her ...and blocked her e-mails ...after sending a quick blurb about her big mouth getting her in trouble yet again ...and stepping way over the line with her comments. That's was it ...I threw away the only friend I had that I could discuss my personal matters with ...all in the interest of protecting my wife.

.....I know the arrows may fly again ....and yes ...I might be an a__hole ...but at some point ...I keep hoping that my wife may see how I hold her in my heart ...and endeavor to finally help me. I do know that when I told my wife about that incident ...it appeared that she may have gained a bit more respect for me ...and the therapist certainly thought it was significant that I discarded the only sounding board that was "a friend".

....sorry for the ramble ...I just thought it was a little bit relevant in showing that I have no intent to 'brutalize" my wife.


----------



## russell28

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....took a while to read all the subsequent posts after my last one ...maybe a few minutes longer because I had to fight through all the slings & arrows and pull a few out of me body.
> 
> ....let me make something clear ....yes I'm angry ...and I hurt .....and my ego and "manhood" has been severely bruised ....that's a given. But, I have never* 'brutalized"* my wife ...though maybe ....if presented with *that* specific choice of words for her to use ...she may say that is a good description. She'll will say that my having flash backs ...occasional emotional breakdowns (aka: crying) ...and triggers ....is my way of punishing her .....and that I want to punish her rather than putting this all behind me and moving forward.
> 
> ....that said ...I do not actively present my anger to her ...nor do I go on an purposeful offensive to hurt her in anyway. In fact I'm very protective of her ...and maybe that's part of the hyper-vigilance that a BS displays. But I do protect her nevertheless...
> 
> .....let me give an example of something semi-recent. Other than on these boards ...I've discussed my wife's ONS with NO ONE but my therapist, and ONE friend. Said friend, was my teenage (when 16 yrs old) girlfriend ...my "first love" if you will. I came across her contact info (she lives several hundred miles away) on one of those schoolmates / reunion type sites ...and I e-mailed her. This was about 5 yrs after my wife's ONS. There was that immediate "wow how are you" type stuff ...lotsa' reminiscing ....and so on. At some point the conversations got more personal ...discussing things in our own married lives ...and the issues we deal with. I confided in her with my struggles pertaining to the wife's ONS ...she in me with her spouse's alcoholism and reckless ways with money. We were GREAT childhood friends before we were dating as teens ..and there was always that 'connection' that allowed us to really talk. At some point her husband invited me to their home for a milestone b'day surprise party for her ...and my wife went too. So ...we've all met ...yadda yadda. And over the years we talked on facebook, e-mails etc. I'm positive my wife had jealousy about this ...but it was really all on the up and up ...and as "overly falsely flirtatious" as she was ...there was no EA or anything like that (before anyone asks). As a true friend, I'd say that a certain love existed for her ....just as it did for one of my best male friends from my grade school years ...who was hit and killed by a tractor trailer ...2 days after grade-school graduation. Those friends that you have a sincere love for are difficult to part ways with. But ...several months ago in a ridiculously mundane face-book message session with my teen years girlfriend (we were discussing "what's for dinner") ...she made a rather disparaging remark about my wife's weight gain and appearance. At THAT point ...mid message ...I logged off from messenger ...and "un-friended" her ...and blocked her e-mails ...after sending a quick blurb about her big mouth getting her in trouble yet again ...and stepping way over the line with her comments. That's was it ...I threw away the only friend I had that I could discuss my personal matters with ...all in the interest of protecting my wife.
> 
> .....I know the arrows may fly again ....and yes ...I might be an a__hole ...but at some point ...I keep hoping that my wife may see how I hold her in my heart ...and endeavor to finally help me. I do know that when I told my wife about that incident ...it appeared that she may have gained a bit more respect for me ...and the therapist certainly thought it was significant that I discarded the only sounding board that was "a friend".
> 
> ....sorry for the ramble ...I just thought it was a little bit relevant in showing that I have no intent to 'brutalize" my wife.


I used that word in reply to a user that used it, I called it hyperbole. I think you really deleted your old friend, because you realize it is/was an EA, and you did cross the line when discussing your relationship, you did seek out her attention and look to reach out to another woman, one that you had a relationship with. Your wife was correct to be jealous. You crossed the line talking about your wife's ONS. By doing that, you opened the door for her to talk about your wife. You shouldn't have let her go on about her husband to you.... wrong... wrong.... 'friends'... ya... good you finally figured it out and cut her off. To finish getting out of the fog, stop the BS about 'good friends', you are married and reached out to a female you loved, first love, and talked about your wife.

Does your wife know you discussed her ONS with this woman? did you tell her about the other stuff, the talk about her husband etc..? Did your wife believe the reason you reached out to her after the affair? 

This is the 'more to this story'.. Your wife is angry with you for having a revenge EA, or at least attempting to and chickening out.. then glossing it over... so you both are into the rug sweeping... You're angry with her for protecting her affair and downplaying it, and she's angry with you for attempting a revenge affair even if you ended up finally doing the right thing (in a wrong way*)..

*Right way.. Tell her you were out of line, had no business discussing your wife or her husband with her, you realize now you crossed a boundary and apologize for not showing her more respect.


----------



## Graywolf2

I’m paraphrasing, but your wife has said things like this:

I will not have my life defined by one event.

That was 18 years ago.

When asked point blank if you are the biological father, your wife answered:

I consider you to be her father.

Raising a child is a tremendous emotional and financial investment. The effects of being a jerk 18 years ago diminish with time. Raising another man’s kid doesn’t. You haven’t been able to fully enjoy your daughter without reservation because of your wife’s action 18 years ago. As you said, you are afraid to take genetic pride in her. If your daughter has a kid, can you revel in the arrival of your grandchild as much as your wife?

The answer is NO, and that is in the future, not 18 years in the past.

You seem to not want to know if your daughter is biologically yours of not, even if you can do it without anyone finding out. That is your business of course, but let me present some arguments:

You find out that she is your biological daughter:

1.	You can now take the biological pride that you mentioned.

2.	You can enjoy your grandchildren as much as your wife.

3.	There are no lasting effects of your wife’s ONS other than the relationship between you two.

4.	Maybe you can better accept the position you find yourself in and be less tormented.

You find out that she isn’t biologically yours:

1.	You don’t have to tell your daughter.

2.	Now you are the good guy for loving another man’s daughter as your own and raising her.

3.	Your wife should cut you a little slack for being a jerk.

4.	You now have an answer for your wife’s question: It was an ONS 18 years ago, what does it matter now?

5.	When your wife is cooing over her grandchild, you can give her a look.



Hurtin_Still said:


> Her take on everything is that ...(and she'll use visuals for this) ....she 'draws' a timeline that's +30 yrs long. Then she shows 12 not so great years ...then a singular point on the line that's her ONS ...then ...18 yrs following, that she calls hell. So ...clearly ...she's minimizing the 'act' ...and isolating it to that one point in time.


Put a point on a paper and label it ONS. Draw a line 9 months long from that point. Put another point on the paper and label it “Birth of other man’s (I don’t know who he is) child.” Draw a line from that and put another dot that you label “Birth of other man’s (I don’t know who he is) grandchild. Then continue the line off the paper.

If you use my previous post, be careful about sample collection. If the test says she isn’t your biological daughter, repeat the test with a second different carefully collected sample before you tell anyone.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

russell28 said:


> I used that word in reply to a user that used it, I called it hyperbole. I think you really deleted your old friend, because you realize it is/was an EA, and you did cross the line when discussing your relationship, you did seek out her attention and look to reach out to another woman, one that you had a relationship with. Your wife was correct to be jealous. You crossed the line talking about your wife's ONS. By doing that, you opened the door for her to talk about your wife. You shouldn't have let her go on about her husband to you.... wrong... wrong.... 'friends'... ya... good you finally figured it out and cut her off. To finish getting out of the fog, stop the BS about 'good friends', you are married and reached out to a female you loved, first love, and talked about your wife.
> 
> Does your wife know you discussed her ONS with this woman? did you tell her about the other stuff, the talk about her husband etc..? Did your wife believe the reason you reached out to her after the affair?
> 
> This is the 'more to this story'.. Your wife is angry with you for having a revenge EA, or at least attempting to and chickening out.. then glossing it over... so you both are into the rug sweeping... You're angry with her for protecting her affair and downplaying it, and she's angry with you for attempting a revenge affair even if you ended up finally doing the right thing (in a wrong way*)..
> 
> *Right way.. Tell her you were out of line, had no business discussing your wife or her husband with her, you realize now you crossed a boundary and apologize for not showing her more respect.


....didn't say that you were the one that coined the "brutalized" word / term ...it was just "there' in the first post I saw ...and grabbed your post as an example. In no way did I single you out.

....and fyi ...e-mails to the old friend ...were on a shared computer ....and wife had full access to look at them and did. She also has access to my facebook page /account which I rarely go on (I have 18 total "friends" ...and 1 has died in the past 2 years). She has facebook friends that are guys she dated in high school. Do I think she's 'hooking up" with them ...no. AM I considering it an EA? ...no. I told my wife ...long ago ...in front of the therapist ...that perhaps talking to my friend was not a great thing ...and if it bothered her ...I was sorry ...but I had no one to talk to ...and at some point ..."stuff" comes out. People ...WILL talk about personal matters ...it's when the talk tends to lean toward actions ...that people need to know when dangerous territory is being entered and to retreat. 

.....I don't foolishly look for affection from anyone near me ...nor would I from someone that's 700 miles away ...and is married. Both cases are equally out of bounds. My wife KNOWS that I wouldn't cheat on her ...and perhaps that's why she's taken advantage of my "good guy" demeanor in lieu of doing the "right thing" for me. 

....I think you read WAY too much into what I said.


----------



## russell28

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....didn't say that you were the one that coined the "brutalized" word / term ...it was just "there' in the first post I saw ...and grabbed your post as an example. In no way did I single you out.
> 
> ....and fyi ...e-mails to the old friend ...were on a shared computer ....and wife had full access to look at them and did. She also has access to my facebook page /account which I rarely go on (I have 18 total "friends" ...and 1 has died in the past 2 years). She has facebook friends that are guys she dated in high school. Do I think she's 'hooking up" with them ...no. AM I considering it an EA? ...no. I told my wife ...long ago ...in front of the therapist ...that perhaps talking to my friend was not a great thing ...and if it bothered her ...I was sorry ..*.but I had no one to talk to ...and at some point ..."stuff" comes out. People ...WILL talk about personal matters* ...it's when the talk tends to lean toward actions ...that people need to know when dangerous territory is being entered and to retreat.
> 
> .....I don't foolishly look for affection from anyone near me ...nor would I from someone that's 700 miles away ...and is married. Both cases are equally out of bounds. My wife KNOWS that I wouldn't cheat on her ...and perhaps that's why she's taken advantage of my "good guy" demeanor in lieu of doing the "right thing" for me.
> 
> ....I think you read WAY too much into what I said.


Talk to your wife about personal matters. 

Tell her that you can both heal if she'll just give you the one thing you've asked all these years. All this pain can end. You won't need to seek out others shoulders to cry on, and she won't put on weight because she feels like crap because she's constantly reminded of the fact that she cheated. Let her know you want her to be able to let it go. Don't talk to her in any way that she doesn't feel safe. Let her know you won't do anything stupid. Let her know how important it is to you, and how it's not about who it is, but about her not being able to be honest with you and protecting her 'act' over her marriage. You want to rebuild intimacy and trust, you do that through honesty and communication.

Stop reaching out to married women and talking to them about their husbands, even if you don't plan it to go physical. Ask yourself if you'd want your wife discussing the things you discussed with your ex-love, with her ex-loves... If she can discuss her ONS with them, and your personal matters. Respect them and the husband, if you expect others to respect you. As dumb as that sounds right now to me, do it for yourself.. Don't be an asshat because other men are asshats, have some self respect and treat others with respect, including your wife.

Stop playing games, both of you, or split. Why live a life where you're screwing with each other, and playing mind games.. building resentments... Set her free, and if she comes back.....


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Graywolf2 said:


> I’m paraphrasing, but your wife has said things like this:
> 
> I will not have my life defined by one event.
> 
> That was 18 years ago.
> 
> When asked point blank if you are the biological father, your wife answered:
> 
> I consider you to be her father.
> 
> Raising a child is a tremendous emotional and financial investment. The effects of being a jerk 18 years ago diminish with time. Raising another man’s kid doesn’t. You haven’t been able to fully enjoy your daughter without reservation because of your wife’s action 18 years ago. As you said, you are afraid to take genetic pride in her. If your daughter has a kid, can you revel in the arrival of your grandchild as much as your wife?
> 
> The answer is NO, and that is in the future, not 18 years in the past.
> 
> You seem to not want to know if your daughter is biologically yours of not, even if you can do it without anyone finding out. That is your business of course, but let me present some arguments:
> 
> You find out that she is your biological daughter:
> 
> 1.	You can now take the biological pride that you mentioned.
> 
> 2.	You can enjoy your grandchildren as much as your wife.
> 
> 3.	There are no lasting effects of your wife’s ONS other than the relationship between you two.
> 
> 4.	Maybe you can better accept the position you find yourself in and be less tormented.
> 
> You find out that she isn’t biologically yours:
> 
> 1.	You don’t have to tell your daughter.
> 
> *2.	Now you are the good guy for loving another man’s daughter as your own and raising her.*
> 
> 3.	Your wife should cut you a little slack for being a jerk.
> 
> 4.	You now have an answer for your wife’s question: It was an ONS 18 years ago, what does it matter now?
> 
> 5.	When your wife is cooing over her grandchild, you can give her a look.
> 
> 
> 
> Put a point on a paper and label it ONS. Draw a line 9 months long from that point. Put another point on the paper and label it “Birth of other man’s (I don’t know who he is) child.” Draw a line from that and put another dot that you label “Birth of other man’s (I don’t know who he is) grandchild. Then continue the line off the paper.
> 
> If you use my previous post, be careful about sample collection. If the test says she isn’t your biological daughter, repeat the test with a second different carefully collected sample before you tell anyone.


.....good breakdown of possible scenarios ...thank you.

.....related to the second #2 answer (highlighted in RED above). If that was the scenario ...do you think a guy can take serious pride for being "a good guy" ...and taking care of a child as if it was his own? I know that I have been a better father to her (more involved), than my other kids. I wonder if that sense of accomplishment helps to build up a guy's sense of personal pride?


----------



## BobSimmons

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....not on her own ...I need to initiate ....and I would have to have been on my "best behavior" for a few days prior ...so she's less angry with me.


.... ?... alot of .....


----------



## Dyokemm

"do you think a guy can take serious pride for being "a good guy" ...and taking care of a child as if it was his own?"

Yes.

Any person can always take pride in the positive things they have helped any child achieve or learn.

I've been in education for over 20 years and feel pride in the students I have been able to guide into becoming better people.

I'm very involved with my godson, and take great pride that he comes to me to learn about new things or get questions answered.

You can take immense pride in her because you have been even more intimately involved with helping her to become a fantastic young woman.

Leave the bitterness, if you have any, for the s****y actions of your WW in putting you there.

An innocent child has no blame in this.


----------



## Graywolf2

Hurtin_Still said:


> ...do you think a guy can take serious pride for being "a good guy" ...and taking care of a child as if it was his own? I know that I have been a better father to her (more involved), than my other kids. I wonder if that sense of accomplishment helps to build up a guy's sense of personal pride?


OMG YES! People that adopt kids and give them a loving home are very good people. But you are better. They weren’t lied to.

You adopted her with your heart and soul and raised the child of your unfaithful wife. That’s a big favor to your wife. You fixed your wife’s mistake. You overcame what your wife did to you and loved the child.

You overcame much more than a person that legally adopts a child and deserve more admiration.

I loved and raised my kids, but I was stuck with them.


----------



## LongWalk

Hurtin,

You are stuck. Your wife has refused to tell you who he is. Have you accepted this or not?

If this mystery torments you, don't you need to resolve it?

You are uncertain if your daughter is yours. What if your wife knows that she us not yours? Will she ever share this knowledge with your daughter?

Your marriage is sexless. Don't you want to make love to your wife?

Your wife is unhappy and sexually frustrated. Shouldn't you take leadership of the situation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 1812overture

How about this, as a possibility -- "Tell me who it was, or I will get a DNA test to determine if I am her biological father. Here's the kit -- I got it at Walmart. I know even if the first test says she's not my biological daughter, I have to do it again, just to be sure. I won't tell her the results, nor will I tell you." Perhaps even add "Tell me who it was, or I will have an important piece of knowledge that I will not share with you. You will wonder, but I will not tell you. Let _that_ define the rest of your life." Or something like that.

Seriously, you have a right to know who it was. Even more so because you have raised a child or questionable biological parentage as your own. She owes you that piece of information. Her inability to share it has partly defined _you_ for way too long, hasn't it?


----------



## Hurtin_Still

1812overture said:


> How about this, as a possibility -- "Tell me who it was, or I will get a DNA test to determine if I am her biological father. Here's the kit -- I got it at Walmart. I know even if the first test says she's not my biological daughter, I have to do it again, just to be sure. I won't tell her the results, nor will I tell you." Perhaps even add "Tell me who it was, or I will have an important piece of knowledge that I will not share with you. You will wonder, but I will not tell you. Let _that_ define the rest of your life." Or something like that.
> 
> Seriously, you have a right to know who it was. Even more so because you have raised a child or questionable biological parentage as your own. She owes you that piece of information. *Her inability to share it has partly defined you for way too long, hasn't it?*


....yes ..it has ..unfortunately. I do ....however ...have a need to tread lightly in matters that will affect my daughter ...and how she feels about herself. Just because someone turns 18 ...does not make them immediately able to deal with real 'adult' situations. 

...I'm actively working to deal with my end ...and since a little progress has been made ...I hold out hope that more will follow.


----------



## sidney2718

First, though it may seem strange to you, I _am _trying to help. As I've said I think that this marriage is not repairable. But I did not make up the bit about the rage. In your first post in this thread you wrote:


> My anger lately has been so off the charts that it's prompted her to give me an ultimatum regarding ...getting some professional help ...and, getting on some form of medication(s) to help me deal with the anger that's been festering for so long.


Perhaps I can be accused of confusing anger with rage, but for me they are just different faces of the same thing.

You've also quoted her as saying that the last 17 years have been hell. Why would she think that?

You have got to become aware of your own behavior whether you think it justified or not. You've got to because you have a future and it can be a bright one.

As to the reason for the one night stand, I think that the folks here have figured out why she won't tell you his name. It is because it is somebody you know and are close to. I think she was afraid it would cause instant divorce. Against that threatening her with divorce if she doesn't tell you becomes an empty gesture. She'll just go to her death with that information kept secret.
You seem to be aware of this in a way. Again, quoting from your first post:


> But, she never was 'made' to disclose details about what led her to sleep with someone else, or the 'dirty deed" itself. She, to this day, claims that she'd have a hard time telling me his name ...although I am sure that she withheld this info for fear that I'd hunt him down and kill him....or something really painful.


And look at what you wrote here:



Hurtin_Still said:


> .....took a while to read all the subsequent posts after my last one ...maybe a few minutes longer because I had to fight through all the slings & arrows and pull a few out of me body.
> 
> *....let me make something clear ....yes I'm angry ...and I hurt .....and my ego and "manhood" has been severely bruised ....that's a given.* But, *I have never 'brutalized" my wife ...though maybe ....if presented with that specific choice of words for her to use ...she may say that is a good description.* She'll will say that my having flash backs ...occasional emotional breakdowns (aka: crying) ...and triggers ....is my way of punishing her .....and that I want to punish her rather than putting this all behind me and moving forward.


I bolded what I think are important parts above. Later in the same post you also say:



> .....let me give an example of something semi-recent. Other than on these boards ...I've discussed my wife's ONS with NO ONE but my therapist, and ONE friend. Said friend, was my teenage (when 16 yrs old) girlfriend ...my "first love" if you will. I came across her contact info (she lives several hundred miles away) on one of those schoolmates / reunion type sites ...and I e-mailed her. This was about 5 yrs after my wife's ONS. There was that immediate "wow how are you" type stuff ...lotsa' reminiscing ....and so on. At some point the conversations got more personal ...discussing things in our own married lives ...and the issues we deal with. I confided in her with my struggles pertaining to the wife's ONS ...she in me with her spouse's alcoholism and reckless ways with money. We were GREAT childhood friends before we were dating as teens ..and there was always that 'connection' that allowed us to really talk.


In other words you had a long runnng emotional affair with another woman.



> At some point her husband invited me to their home for a milestone b'day surprise party for her ...and my wife went too. So ...we've all met ...yadda yadda. And over the years we talked on facebook, e-mails etc. I'm positive my wife had jealousy about this ...but it was really all on the up and up ...and as "overly falsely flirtatious" as she was ...there was no EA or anything like that (before anyone asks). As a true friend, I'd say that a certain love existed for her ....just as it did for one of my best male friends from my grade school years ...who was hit and killed by a tractor trailer ...2 days after grade-school graduation. Those friends that you have a sincere love for are difficult to part ways with.


But there was an EA. An EA occurs when you discuss the internal workings of your marriage with someone else with whom you have a "certain love". And you note that it probably made your wife jealous.



> But ...several months ago in a ridiculously mundane face-book message session with my teen years girlfriend (we were discussing "what's for dinner") ...she made a rather disparaging remark about my wife's weight gain and appearance. At THAT point ...mid message ...I logged off from messenger ...and "un-friended" her ...and blocked her e-mails ...after sending a quick blurb about her big mouth getting her in trouble yet again ...and stepping way over the line with her comments. That's was it ...I threw away the only friend I had that I could discuss my personal matters with ...all in the interest of protecting my wife.


Good for you! I sincerely mean that.



> .....I know the arrows may fly again ....and yes ...I might be an a__hole ...but at some point ...I keep hoping that my wife may see how I hold her in my heart ...and endeavor to finally help me. I do know that when I told my wife about that incident ...it appeared that she may have gained a bit more respect for me ...and the therapist certainly thought it was significant that I discarded the only sounding board that was "a friend".
> 
> ....sorry for the ramble ...I just thought it was a little bit relevant in showing that I have no intent to 'brutalize" my wife.


I never claimed you *intended* to "brutalize" your wife. My meaning was that in fact you were doing that and were not aware of it. But it comes through in what you wrote.

This has gotten quite long, but let me summarize what I've gotten from your story. You married and for the next long number of years your wife at least was unhappy in the marriage. Then came the ONS. You reconciled with your WW and did not force her to reveal details of the affair. (Have you ever figured out why you didn't force her to reveal?). And ever since your marriage has been going steadily downhill.

Having survived the fallout from the ONS, your wife began to feel as it the affair had been put behind you. But your anger has festered. Several others here have noticed it. And that brings us to today.

I think you have to decide if you want reconciliation or divorce. And since,
believe it or not, I agree that you are entitled to know the details of the affair, I don't think that reconciliation is going to happen. In that case stop torturing both her and yourself and get divorced.


----------



## houser_distressed

Hurting, you are in the same position my dad was 12 years ago and I was in the position of your daughter. My parents as well as both my elder siblings were brunettes but I was blonde. As a matter of fact, I was the only blonde in my extended family. I never noticed it till I was 14 when a girl who liked me commented on it. Over time I started noticing I don't look anything like my dad. I started noticing dad's mood swings, fights with my mom. The idea that my dad might not be my biological father took root in me. 

Finally on my 18th bday, my dad wanted to get me a car. I asked him for the truth. After a lot of fighting, my dad allowed a paternity test. I was not his child. Best part was dad didn't know who my biological father was. It took me another 6 months of screaming and shouting to find out the truth from my mom- her bff's husband. I flew 1000 miles, shook his hand, told the truth at his marriage anniversary in front of his near and dear ones and broke his jaw.

The greatest gift my dad gave me was the truth. I only wish he didn't have to suffer so much on my account.


----------



## tom67

houser_distressed said:


> Hurting, you are in the same position my dad was 12 years ago and I was in the position of your daughter. My parents as well as both my elder siblings were brunettes but I was blonde. As a matter of fact, I was the only blonde in my extended family. I never noticed it till I was 14 when a girl who liked me commented on it. Over time I started noticing I don't look anything like my dad. I started noticing dad's mood swings, fights with my mom. The idea that my dad might not be my biological father took root in me.
> 
> Finally on my 18th bday, my dad wanted to get me a car. I asked him for the truth. After a lot of fighting, my dad allowed a paternity test. I was not his child. Best part was dad didn't know who my biological father was. It took me another 6 months of screaming and shouting to find out the truth from my mom- her bff's husband. I flew 1000 miles, shook his hand, told the truth at his marriage anniversary in front of his near and dear ones and broke his jaw.
> 
> The greatest gift my dad gave me was the truth. I only wish he didn't have to suffer so much on my account.


Hurtin I hope you read this.
WOW!


----------



## 1812overture

Damn! So whatever remained of your Dad's "pain" (in quotes because he got to raise and be your Dad) must have vanished when his son got to declare him as his Dad.

That assumes he knows. You told him, right? And you didn't get arrested?


----------



## houser_distressed

Children are not as dumb as we think they are. I remember coz I still sometimes trigger when I see blonde people. I have dyed my hair black for the last 12 years. A child deserves to know who his parents are.


----------



## tom67

houser_distressed said:


> Children are not as dumb as we think they are. I remember coz I still sometimes trigger when I see blonde people. I have dyed my hair black for the last 12 years. A child deserves to know who his parents are.


Are your mom and dad still together?


----------



## houser_distressed

1812, my mom had informed him. I wanted to get arrested, would have made for great news. He was too sissy to press charges. I guess impregnating a woman doesn't make you man.


----------



## houser_distressed

Tom, they finally divorced.


----------



## tom67

houser_distressed said:


> Tom, they finally divorced.


That would be something most men could never get over so I am not surprised.
I can't imagine the pain he had when you informed him. Sorry.


----------



## houser_distressed

He was always afraid I would stop calling him dad. Tom, you just made me cry. These memories are sweet and bitter at the same time. I knew my dad and siblings would love me DESPITE you I am.


----------



## tom67

houser_distressed said:


> He was always afraid I would stop calling him dad. Tom, you just made me cry. These memories are sweet and bitter at the same time. I knew my dad and siblings would love me DESPITE you I am.


Just be there for him and forget the sissy sperm donor as to your mother well...
Anyway didn't mean to make you cry.


----------



## houser_distressed

I have forgiven mom over the years. What's the point of hating someone getting roasted in their own personal hell?


----------



## tom67

houser_distressed said:


> I have forgiven mom over the years. What's the point of hating someone getting roasted in their own personal hell?


Good.
Back to Hurtin
Please stop living in limbo you can do the test without your wife knowing at all.
Think about it.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

tom67 said:


> Hurtin I hope you read this.
> WOW!


....yes ...just read it ...and ...though I know that there are likely many men in my position ...it's good to hear about one specifically that dealt with this.




> *Originally Posted by houser_distressed*
> Hurting, you are in the same position my dad was 12 years ago and I was in the position of your daughter. My parents as well as both my elder siblings were brunettes but I was blonde. As a matter of fact, I was the only blonde in my extended family. I never noticed it till I was 14 when a girl who liked me commented on it. Over time I started noticing I don't look anything like my dad. I started noticing dad's mood swings, fights with my mom. The idea that my dad might not be my biological father took root in me.
> 
> Finally on my 18th bday, my dad wanted to get me a car. I asked him for the truth. After a lot of fighting, my dad allowed a paternity test. I was not his child. Best part was dad didn't know who my biological father was. It took me another 6 months of screaming and shouting to find out the truth from my mom- her bff's husband. I flew 1000 miles, shook his hand, told the truth at his marriage anniversary in front of his near and dear ones and broke his jaw.
> 
> The greatest gift my dad gave me was the truth. I only wish he didn't have to suffer so much on my account.


.....the blonde hair stuff kills me every time. I can't tell you how I cringe inside when that is brought up by some asshat friend with the age old, _"Guess the milkman visited"_ joke. I know that it's possible that she can have blonde hair due to me (there are blondes on my side of the family ...and I had blonde hair till I was 3 yrs old) ...but the situation still eats me alive.

...this was a topic that was discussed in therapy this past week ...until my wife derailed it with her dredging up stuff from the beginning of the marriage ...pre-ONS (she's always looking for that "but" ...justification reason that she wants me to see). I see it ...I was not attentive ...and somewhat removed ...and I also found out shortly thereafter (the ONS) that I had clinical depression / anxiety disorder ...and that might have be reasoning for my "distance". All said ...still not a reason for her to do what she did. I have a second "emergency" (solo) session at therapy tomorrow ...because I'm kinda' f'd up this week.


----------



## LongWalk

Hurtin,

Do not tell your wife about the DNA test. Just buy the kit and do it. Don't tell your daughter. Find her hair brush and collect enough so that you get one with enough root.


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> Hurtin,
> 
> Do not tell your wife about the DNA test. Just buy the kit and do it. Don't tell your daughter. Find her hair brush and collect enough so that you get one with enough root.


Hurtin, life is just too short for all this suffering. We all want what's best for you.
You deserve better!


----------



## just got it 55

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......well .....today will be my 'visit' to the therapist that my wife goes to. And, given my age old mistrust and loathing for therapists, counselors, etc ........I have a huge anxiety attack going on right now.
> 
> ....it's been almost as bad as D-Day this past week, given that I was told info from my wife about the A that is contrary to what I was led to believe for +17 years. I have a lot that I want to say in this 'session' and I know that I will not get to all of it in 1 hour's time.
> 
> ....I honestly, truly, sincerely, want to get past all this. But I fear this therapy session like no other, because I think that all the background (her account) has been provided by my wife and I'm possibly entering a toxic minefield.
> 
> ....and I guess that my biggest dose of trepidation comes from the idea that I will likely never know the absolute truth about anything (or if I can handle the actual truth) and have to continue to live a lie.


Hurtin How did this go you never said if it was helpful or hurtful

Has ther been any more revolations ?

55


----------



## Remains

Deleted


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: When you find out the 'details' of the PA....*



just got it 55 said:


> Hurtin How did this go you never said if it was helpful or hurtful
> 
> Has ther been any more revolations ?
> 
> 55


.......revelations? Depends on what is classified as a revelation? 

......have I gotten 'details' ? No.....

......have I elicited more honest emotional dialogue from my wife? Yes....

......I'm beginning to see / and maybe believe that she she was a stupid ass ....and had a ONS ( aided by alcohol intake )...and being that it happened 19 yrs ago ...it's truly likely she may not remember details. 

......I see that in many other facets of life ...she's been a good wife and mother since then. 

.....that doesn't make me discount the fact that I still hurt ...I still remember ...I still trigger ....and she's the reason for it. That aspect is addressed and worked on in therapy each week ......with a little progress here ...and some there. It's about ME now .....I have to feel better, because my life has been so derailed for so long.....


----------



## WhiteRaven

Hurtin_Still said:


> It's about ME now .....I have to feel better, because my life has been so derailed for so long.....


Nice to hear that. I'm rooting for you to find your peace. Would I tell you what to do and how to do it. No. I'm not in your position, I don't have kids and I don't live your life. But it's nice to see you realize the value of 'me'.


----------



## Headspin

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....... a ONS ( aided by alcohol intake )...and being that it happened 19 yrs ago ...*it's truly likely she may not remember details.*
> 
> ...........


Really ?

Sorry but I would find it impossible to accept that :scratchhead:


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: When you find out the 'details' of the PA....*



Headspin said:


> Really ?
> 
> Sorry but I would find it impossible to accept that :scratchhead:


......you have NO idea.


----------



## 2asdf2

If she only had one indiscretion, she remembers.

If there were several, you may be right.


----------



## just got it 55

2asdf2 said:


> If she only had one indiscretion, she remembers.
> 
> If there were several, you may be right.


One lie is easy to remember

but many ????????????????????????????

55


----------



## Granny7

Hurtin_Still said:


> .......revelations? Depends on what is classified as a revelation?
> 
> ......have I gotten 'details' ? No.....
> 
> ......have I elicited more honest emotional dialogue from my wife? Yes....
> 
> ......I'm beginning to see / and maybe believe that she she was a stupid ass ....and had a ONS ( aided by alcohol intake )...and being that it happened 19 yrs ago ...it's truly likely she may not remember details.
> 
> ......I see that in many other facets of life ...she's been a good wife and mother since then.
> 
> .....that doesn't make me discount the fact that I still hurt ...I still remember ...I still trigger ....and she's the reason for it. That aspect is addressed and worked on in therapy each week ......with a little progress here ...and some there. It's about ME now .....I have to feel better, because my life has been so derailed for so long.....


Hurtin Still,

I read the one post about your wife maybe not remembering her ONS as she had been drinking. I would like to make you feel better by saying something positive, but I can't!

You know my situation, where my CH spent 2 weekends with the OW in a 3 yr. period. The polygraph shows they didn't have sex, but do I know in my heart if he wanted and couldn't perform, or that he really didn't want to cross the line that far? No I don't and 25 yrs. later, still don't. He too had been drinking a lot on both of those weekends. They had drinks in the room, went on to dinner, more drinks and then dancing and I'm sure more drinks. 

The point that I am making is this. My CS had only been with me and only me since he was 16. He's then 40 and their is no way that, even with drinking, he wouldn't remember a lot of the details of what they did together. The kissing, cuddling, touching, he knows and will only tell me so much. I feel that your wife is probably doing the same. You just don't forget all the details if it's an event like that. It's traumatic to say the least, so that's why I don't believe everything my H says and believe me, it's hell to live a life that way.

I keep going back and forth, even at the age of 70 on what do I want to do as it comes back to haunt me. I wish you peace, but if you can find out the truth, I still say, it's better. But then I tell myself, "Is he really telling me the truth?" Your darned if you do and darned if you don't know!

My thoughts are with you.

Granny7


----------



## Dyokemm

"it's truly likely she may not remember details."

OK Hurtin'....that may be a possibility about some of the DETAILS.

But she hasn't even given you the NAME of the POS which she definitely has to know...there is no forgetting that.

So do not let up on her about this issue until she at the very least gives you the name of this POS scumbag.


----------



## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> "it's truly likely she may not remember details."
> 
> OK Hurtin'....that may be a possibility about some of the DETAILS.
> 
> But she hasn't even given you the NAME of the POS which she definitely has to know...there is no forgetting that.
> 
> So do not let up on her about this issue until she at the very least gives you the name of this POS scumbag.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## arbitrator

Dyokemm said:


> "it's truly likely she may not remember details."
> 
> OK Hurtin'....that may be a possibility about some of the DETAILS.
> 
> But she hasn't even given you the NAME of the POS which she definitely has to know...there is no forgetting that.
> 
> So do not let up on her about this issue until she at the very least gives you the name of this POS scumbag.


*Just who does she think she's kidding? She, in all likelihood, has already had an infinitude of cell phone, text and talk time with the POS! She's likely wore out the PC or smartphone on social media time(FB, et. al.),
She remembers his name, what cologne he dons, his wife's first name, how cute his little pot gut looks like when he's struttin' around naked, whether he's got false teeth, his penile dimensions, if he takes viagra or cialis, and how good of a pounding he can deliver when he gets hot and bothered.!

No! She just doesn't want to remember because she's already been caught with her panties down around her ankles! Oh, well! Sounds rather self-serving to me!*


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......you have NO idea.


You are 100% correct. The real issue is, sadly, neither do you.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Is the OP still around? Wish he would share an update. No doubt several other people are struggling with similar issues.


----------



## GusPolinski

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Is the OP still around? Wish he would share an update. No doubt several other people are struggling with similar issues.


Looks like he's still around. He's been posting semi-regularly over the course of the past few weeks at least...

Talk About Marriage - View Profile: Hurtin_Still


----------



## LongWalk

He recently posted:


> Re: Longest period in your marriage without sex
> ....well ...by my best guesstimate ....in about 3 minutes (+/- a half hour) ....it'll be 1 year with nadda ...zilch ....zero ....nothing.
> 
> ....and it sucks beyond belief ...and I'm getting tired of waiting for her to show interest ....at all.


I suspect that StillHurtin could fix his marriage. It is up to him to show the way.

1) DNA test daughter. He can still love her, regardless of the results. But why live with this mystery. It is the source of anxiety.

Machiavelli would have noted that there is a plan here. There is a risk that his wife will soon divorce him since there children are all adults. They have other children, right?

2) OP would be come more attractive to his wife if he did not give a shyte. Not about the ONS or her. He has to detach to regain her interest.

neuklas did it. OP can.

If if doesn't work, they can divorce.

3) Stop nagging her. Nagging is unattractive. Since it hasn't helped quit doing it.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Is the OP still around? Wish he would share an update. No doubt several other people are struggling with similar issues.


....I am still around ....just not as often ....or available as I'd like to be in order to check in to either provide updates ...or to just 
validate to myself that I'm not alone with these painful issues.

...this past year has been very trying for me ...on several different fronts. 

...to begin with ...my business had slowed to a snail's pace early in 2014 ....with the main issue being that clients took forever to pay their invoices. That being the case ...I (we) were dangerously close to falling behind on our mortgage ...and the possibility of losing our house was very much a reality. We were able to borrow one month's mortgage from family ...and catch up and right the ship ...sort of.

....all this was happening in early spring of '14 just as I had stopped going to see the therapist / counselor ....either alone or with my wife. That decision was made necessary by my having the opportunity to start a second job ...and hence not having any free time to go to therapy. I work this new job during the day, (it's maintenance service business) ...and most days I'm working at least 10 hours ...with 12+ hour days not uncommon in the summer months. Then ...I head home ...shove some food in my face (which btw ...I usually end up cooking) ...and then head to my home-office to work on my business (I do engineering / site development work) ...and work till at least 1 am every night ...and pretty much all weekends.

..... all this was happening in the wake of some very heated sessions of therapy ...where I was still trying to convey my feelings of hurt to my wife ...and she was basically not having any of it (her quote one session:_ "I'm done with this ...and won't be punished for the rest of my life for one mistake"_.

....so ...with two jobs going on ....I got the money situation to a somewhat better place. But the stress of both jobs ...along with what I believe to be PTSD from her cheating ...(even if it was almost 20 yrs ago) ....took its toll on my health ...without my knowledge. Out of nowhere my blood pressure sky-rocketed ...to the point where I had it verified at a pharmacy ...and the pharmacist told me to get to a doctor ASAP ...for fear I'd have a stroke. So ...now I have BP meds to remember to take every night ....(the joys of middle-age-dom)

....where I'm 'at' emotionally ....mentally ...is kinda' all over the place. It seems that much of the "hurt" that my wife caused me has rapidly evolved into *extreme* anger. It sits just below the surface ..until something lights its very short fuse. The notion that she just doesn't care to deal with what I feel ...is probably the biggest source of the anger. She still goes to the therapist ....and that infuriates me ...because she will deal with "her" issues ...and not "us" issues. 

....I think I'm getting to the point of not really giving a sh!t any longer. That sentiment has permeated my entire being. The most common reaction to my commentary on MANY subjects is that, _"Don't you have a 'filter' any more"?_ Actually ...no ...I don't. I tell my family ..."I was 'filtered' for 52 years ...and it appears to be broken now". My tolerance for bullsh!t is non-existent ...regardless of where it originates. A prime example relates to my unwillingness to deal with any insult ...even from close friends. For several years I had contact with a former childhood girlfriend. We were able to talk about our old neighborhood ...friends we knew ...teachers we had in grade school ....yadda yadda yadda. That kind of mindless every-so-often banter can keep you thinking "young'. well ...out of nowhere ....a little over a year ago ...she made a disparaging remark about my wife's weight issue. I called her on it ...and demanded an apology. None was given ...and I subsequently removed her e-mail address from my computer ...and "un-friended' her on Facebook. That was an action that I never thought I'd carry out ...but ....my mind had evolved ...as has my sentiments related to tolerating that which offends me ...however slight said offense may be.

...so ...at this point I'm working thru my issues with tolerance of being 'abused' ....and we'll see where it leads? No longer am I the one that will be "working" on the marriage. That was the case for way too long ...when it was her job to do the work after betraying me. I think I'm getting over the shame that I carried for so long ...and replacing it with well placed anger for having to wait for SO long for her to come to grips with the damage she inflicted upon me. 

....so ...that's where I'm at ...now. It's not much of an update ...but as I noted earlier ...I work 2 full time jobs ...and time is at a premium.


----------



## ConanHub

Your ww seems remorseless and clueless. Clue her in with a quick kick to her entitled, cheating ass. She doesn't deserve marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

I have followed your thread since it started and what I can say is this: I do not understand you. I respect you, but I do not understand you.

I had to live with similar doubt very early on and refused point blank to do it - and love had nothing to do with it. I refused to destroy my soul anymore.

Even now, you need to be able to walk away from this "wonderful" wife of yours that knows she is destroying you from your inner core outwards and refuses to do anything about it or to even ease your pain.

You keep on about her smile, "kindness", financial contributions and being a great mother (by the way a great mother to a daughter she very possibly created with another man). I think that you were afraid to walk away from her at the time partly because you thought your sex rank was lower than hers and that you might not find someone as attractive again.

And this is the issue you need to work on now to restore your inner being - remove that fear! And the only way to do it now unfortunately is to actually walk away from her now. Tell her exactly why and then just do it. It will be painful at first but the amount of relief you feel to ease this inner resentment and turmoil will be pure heaven. I speak from experience.

She will continue to justify her actions and affair and keep you in the dark simply because you let her do this. Therapists cannot help you here. You need to help yourself.


----------



## Dyokemm

"She doesn't deserve marriage."

I agree with this 100%.

The betrayal and subsequent TTing and withholding of the details was bad enough....but manfromlamancha is right....her refusal to help you NOW, even when it is obvious the stress and related blood pressure problems are literally effecting your health in dangerous ways is simply UNFORGIVABLE.


----------



## LongWalk

Stop accepting the status quo.

What has your wife done during these hard times?


----------



## old red

excellent that you laid out your boundary with the facebook friend. now, how about doing the same thing with your wife, who still refuses to help you, despite your obvious distress and physical ailments. it's time to find your happiness.


----------



## Jasel

Damn how have I never seen this thread before? Dude, drop kick her out the front door. You've been trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip for years and you're angry that you still can't get any blood to come out??

Your wife is not going to feel the way you want her to feel. Never. That should be clear at this point. What you need to decide is if you can live with it or not. Your wife obviously can. 

And I don't understand how you can give an ultimatum to your childhood friend, follow through on it, shut her out of your life, all over a slight made against your wife (who I somewhat doubt would do the same for you); and yet you won't even take half as hard of an approach in regards to your wife. And never have :scratchhead:

Like someone else said, your wife has faced no consequences for what she has done. Show her divorce papers and her memory will clear up real quick and she'll realize you're serious and not just throwing a tantrum or she'll continue to play the victim like she's used to. Either way you'll at least be trying something different.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

LongWalk said:


> What has your wife done during these hard times?


......although she has her own business, it brings in a fraction of the income we require. She ...for the most part ...has given little 'support' for my working two jobs. She'll criticize me ...saying that I brought this upon myself ...because I didn't finish college ....or, work to expand my engineering business. In my mind ..and maybe its an old-fashioned mind ....I believe that some form of praise should be thrown my way for working as hard as I have been to keep a roof over our heads. Yet, all I seem to get from her is, "what money do you have coming in or is owed to you". 

There's been no sex in over a year ....no real physical affection ...and that begins to play with my mind. I trigger more often than before ....and it manifests itself more in the way of increased anger than anything else. Don't get me wrong ..I still 'hurt' ...but anger is the predominant emotion that comes to the surface these days. And yes ...I know that it's impacting my health. I can feel my blood pressure spike when my mind starts to race with either trigger-like thoughts ...or of the complete indifference she seems to exhibit toward the impacts of all of this on me.


----------



## GusPolinski

HS, how old are your children? Are any of them still at home?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

No amount of therapy is going to heal you unless your basic requirements are met by your wife, that is complete honesty, remorse and openness from her side..

Many people have a limit of tolerance towards a non remorseless spouse, I dont see any limit in you. You are going to live in this bitterness for rest of your life.

Why cant you get a Divorce?


----------



## wmn1

How many times do you think she cheated ? Do you think it was just once ? And what were the circumstances ?

I don't blame you for being very upset and not taking BS anymore but you need to be careful. What occurred with your wife is on her, it's not on all of these other people and your retaliating or bad temperament among friends (even those who may have helped you in the past or a childhood girlfriend) isn't deserved by them any more than your being cheated on was deserved by you. 

I had a close friend who we all helped after he came home from work and found his wife in bed with another guy. It destroyed him but his anger showed through in everything he did and soon after, he had no more friends. He at least divorced the cheater but it is something for you to think about.

Yes you have to evaluate the marriage and it may seem harsh to her to can her after 20 years after a one night stand but maybe the threat will make her reveal more about what she did. If not, and she keeps up her stoic attitude, you might have to move on through D or IC. 

Her attitude is piss poor


----------



## wmn1

no sex in a year. That's not right for her to block you that way. Do you think she's checked out or do you think she's up to no good ? Not to trigger you but just asking


----------



## Lucas

It's hard to read what you are going through, it brings back some old memories. I can't imagine 17 years, 5 were too much for me. My ex-wife wanted to sweep her 6 month affair (After 1 year of marriage)under the rug and then accuse me of being ridiculous for not letting it go.... At the time I was convinced that I was in the wrong for working 2 jobs, not being there for her and that I should be able to move on if I really loved her. She didn't want to talk about it so we didn't. I had so much resentment and anger built up that I just couldn't deal with it any more. I could never understand how she did what she did, and couldn't she see how much I loved her and how much I did for our family? I loved my wife, but I also feel that after being cheated on it seemed to magnify how much I wanted to be with her. Strange, I'm not sure if it was my personality or what. It's like "You want what you can't have mentality". In this case I wanted a perfect relationship we had when we first met. (5 Years later) Finally while picking up dog poop in the yard one evening(Sh**ty life irony), I made the decision not to live like that any more. I realized I had a choice and after 5 years and still not feeling closure and reciprocation of my love I stopped giving a Sh#@. What happened a couple months later I am not proud of(I had my own affair) I did not go out and try to get revenge or anything, it just happened. When that happened I understood exactly what she had been going through when she had the affair on me. It wasn't planned, it usually starts out as something harmless, and bam you are in a full on affair. Being infatuated with someone or caught up in the moment makes it easy to make mistakes. It's hard to explain unless you live through it but I will try. It was so clear that while having an affair, although it's an extremely personal hit to the spouse being cheated on, I didn't feel vindictive while having the affair. I finally understood how she felt and I didn't take it so personal, it was just something that happened. I know 6 months is very personal, but I strangely understood and I wasn't angry anymore. Sorry, it is very hard to explain! Maybe it will make sense to someone! Anyway, with that clarity we amicably made a joint decision to get a divorce. Do you feel like the stress of this affair is the reason for all the turmoil in the relationship with your wife? No sex in a year is brutal, that is definitely not good!


----------



## Yeswecan

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......although she has her own business, it brings in a fraction of the income we require. She ...for the most part ...has given little 'support' for my working two jobs. She'll criticize me ...saying that I brought this upon myself ...because I didn't finish college ....or, work to expand my engineering business. In my mind ..and maybe its an old-fashioned mind ....I believe that some form of praise should be thrown my way for working as hard as I have been to keep a roof over our heads. Yet, all I seem to get from her is, "what money do you have coming in or is owed to you".
> 
> There's been no sex in over a year ....no real physical affection ...and that begins to play with my mind. I trigger more often than before ....and it manifests itself more in the way of increased anger than anything else. Don't get me wrong ..I still 'hurt' ...but anger is the predominant emotion that comes to the surface these days. And yes ...I know that it's impacting my health. I can feel my blood pressure spike when my mind starts to race with either trigger-like thoughts ...or of the complete indifference she seems to exhibit toward the impacts of all of this on me.


HS, I have read your entire thread. Your W has not supported you in resolving this since it started. That my friend is no W IMO. It appears your W is all about herself. And to further that notion with the quoted post above...you two are effectively room mates. Your are a paycheck and nothing more. Once again, your W is all about herself. If my math is correct your kids are 18+ now. Consider moving on. Seriously, who needs to be brow beaten over what money you are bringing in after being summarily dismissed over infidelity over 18 years ago. And to add...the belittlement concerning not finishing college and the reason your home business is dying a slow death. Last time I checked the country was on a brink of disaster 6 years ago. We are still crawling out from under it. It has nothing to do with your education.


----------



## Lucas

manfromlamancha said:


> I have followed your thread since it started and what I can say is this: I do not understand you. I respect you, but I do not understand you.
> 
> I had to live with similar doubt very early on and refused point blank to do it - and love had nothing to do with it. I refused to destroy my soul anymore.
> 
> Even now, you need to be able to walk away from this "wonderful" wife of yours that knows she is destroying you from your inner core outwards and refuses to do anything about it or to even ease your pain.
> 
> You keep on about her smile, "kindness", financial contributions and being a great mother (by the way a great mother to a daughter she very possibly created with another man). I think that you were afraid to walk away from her at the time partly because you thought your sex rank was lower than hers and that you might not find someone as attractive again.
> 
> And this is the issue you need to work on now to restore your inner being - remove that fear! And the only way to do it now unfortunately is to actually walk away from her now. Tell her exactly why and then just do it. It will be painful at first but the amount of relief you feel to ease this inner resentment and turmoil will be pure heaven. I speak from experience.
> 
> She will continue to justify her actions and affair and keep you in the dark simply because you let her do this. Therapists cannot help you here. You need to help yourself.



This quote is spot on and the answer to your problem. Walk away find yourself again and in one year the only problem you will have is trying to understand why you didn't do that 17 years ago. You have tried everything else, you have nothing to lose. Happiness is waiting for you man!


----------



## Granny7

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....I am still around ....just not as often ....or available as I'd like to be in order to check in to either provide updates ...or to just
> validate to myself that I'm not alone with these painful issues.
> 
> ...this past year has been very trying for me ...on several different fronts.
> 
> ...to begin with ...my business had slowed to a snail's pace early in 2014 ....with the main issue being that clients took forever to pay their invoices. That being the case ...I (we) were dangerously close to falling behind on our mortgage ...and the possibility of losing our house was very much a reality. We were able to borrow one month's mortgage from family ...and catch up and right the ship ...sort of.
> 
> ....all this was happening in early spring of '14 just as I had stopped going to see the therapist / counselor ....either alone or with my wife. That decision was made necessary by my having the opportunity to start a second job ...and hence not having any free time to go to therapy. I work this new job during the day, (it's maintenance service business) ...and most days I'm working at least 10 hours ...with 12+ hour days not uncommon in the summer months. Then ...I head home ...shove some food in my face (which btw ...I usually end up cooking) ...and then head to my home-office to work on my business (I do engineering / site development work) ...and work till at least 1 am every night ...and pretty much all weekends.
> 
> ..... all this was happening in the wake of some very heated sessions of therapy ...where I was still trying to convey my feelings of hurt to my wife ...and she was basically not having any of it (her quote one session:_ "I'm done with this ...and won't be punished for the rest of my life for one mistake"_.
> 
> ....so ...with two jobs going on ....I got the money situation to a somewhat better place. But the stress of both jobs ...along with what I believe to be PTSD from her cheating ...(even if it was almost 20 yrs ago) ....took its toll on my health ...without my knowledge. Out of nowhere my blood pressure sky-rocketed ...to the point where I had it verified at a pharmacy ...and the pharmacist told me to get to a doctor ASAP ...for fear I'd have a stroke. So ...now I have BP meds to remember to take every night ....(the joys of middle-age-dom)
> 
> ....where I'm 'at' emotionally ....mentally ...is kinda' all over the place. It seems that much of the "hurt" that my wife caused me has rapidly evolved into *extreme* anger. It sits just below the surface ..until something lights its very short fuse. The notion that she just doesn't care to deal with what I feel ...is probably the biggest source of the anger. She still goes to the therapist ....and that infuriates me ...because she will deal with "her" issues ...and not "us" issues.
> 
> ....I think I'm getting to the point of not really giving a sh!t any longer. That sentiment has permeated my entire being. The most common reaction to my commentary on MANY subjects is that, _"Don't you have a 'filter' any more"?_ Actually ...no ...I don't. I tell my family ..."I was 'filtered' for 52 years ...and it appears to be broken now". My tolerance for bullsh!t is non-existent ...regardless of where it originates. A prime example relates to my unwillingness to deal with any insult ...even from close friends. For several years I had contact with a former childhood girlfriend. We were able to talk about our old neighborhood ...friends we knew ...teachers we had in grade school ....yadda yadda yadda. That kind of mindless every-so-often banter can keep you thinking "young'. well ...out of nowhere ....a little over a year ago ...she made a disparaging remark about my wife's weight issue. I called her on it ...and demanded an apology. None was given ...and I subsequently removed her e-mail address from my computer ...and "un-friended' her on Facebook. That was an action that I never thought I'd carry out ...but ....my mind had evolved ...as has my sentiments related to tolerating that which offends me ...however slight said offense may be.
> 
> ...so ...at this point I'm working thru my issues with tolerance of being 'abused' ....and we'll see where it leads? No longer am I the one that will be "working" on the marriage. That was the case for way too long ...when it was her job to do the work after betraying me. I think I'm getting over the shame that I carried for so long ...and replacing it with well placed anger for having to wait for SO long for her to come to grips with the damage she inflicted upon me.
> 
> ....so ...that's where I'm at ...now. It's not much of an update ...but as I noted earlier ...I work 2 full time jobs ...and time is at a premium.


HurtingStill,
My heart goes out to you. I can't believe all that you've been through this year. I can relate to a lot of what you are going through, but have an appt. so will go into it later. I just wanted you to know that I'm thinking about you.

Blessings, friend,
Granny7


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....I am still around ....just not as often ....or available as I'd like to be in order to check in to either provide updates ...or to just
> validate to myself that I'm not alone with these painful issues.
> 
> ...this past year has been very trying for me ...on several different fronts.
> 
> ...to begin with ...my business had slowed to a snail's pace early in 2014 ....with the main issue being that clients took forever to pay their invoices. That being the case ...I (we) were dangerously close to falling behind on our mortgage ...and the possibility of losing our house was very much a reality. We were able to borrow one month's mortgage from family ...and catch up and right the ship ...sort of.
> 
> ....all this was happening in early spring of '14 just as I had stopped going to see the therapist / counselor ....either alone or with my wife. That decision was made necessary by my having the opportunity to start a second job ...and hence not having any free time to go to therapy. I work this new job during the day, (it's maintenance service business) ...and most days I'm working at least 10 hours ...with 12+ hour days not uncommon in the summer months. Then ...I head home ...shove some food in my face (which btw ...I usually end up cooking) ...and then head to my home-office to work on my business (I do engineering / site development work) ...and work till at least 1 am every night ...and pretty much all weekends.
> 
> ..... all this was happening in the wake of some very heated sessions of therapy ...where I was still trying to convey my feelings of hurt to my wife ...and she was basically not having any of it (her quote one session:_ "I'm done with this ...and won't be punished for the rest of my life for one mistake"_.
> 
> ....so ...with two jobs going on ....I got the money situation to a somewhat better place. But the stress of both jobs ...along with what I believe to be PTSD from her cheating ...(even if it was almost 20 yrs ago) ....took its toll on my health ...without my knowledge. Out of nowhere my blood pressure sky-rocketed ...to the point where I had it verified at a pharmacy ...and the pharmacist told me to get to a doctor ASAP ...for fear I'd have a stroke. So ...now I have BP meds to remember to take every night ....(the joys of middle-age-dom)
> 
> ....where I'm 'at' emotionally ....mentally ...is kinda' all over the place. It seems that much of the "hurt" that my wife caused me has rapidly evolved into *extreme* anger. It sits just below the surface ..until something lights its very short fuse. The notion that she just doesn't care to deal with what I feel ...is probably the biggest source of the anger. She still goes to the therapist ....and that infuriates me ...because she will deal with "her" issues ...and not "us" issues.
> 
> ....I think I'm getting to the point of not really giving a sh!t any longer. That sentiment has permeated my entire being. The most common reaction to my commentary on MANY subjects is that, _"Don't you have a 'filter' any more"?_ Actually ...no ...I don't. I tell my family ..."I was 'filtered' for 52 years ...and it appears to be broken now". My tolerance for bullsh!t is non-existent ...regardless of where it originates. A prime example relates to my unwillingness to deal with any insult ...even from close friends. For several years I had contact with a former childhood girlfriend. We were able to talk about our old neighborhood ...friends we knew ...teachers we had in grade school ....yadda yadda yadda. That kind of mindless every-so-often banter can keep you thinking "young'. well ...out of nowhere ....a little over a year ago ...she made a disparaging remark about my wife's weight issue. I called her on it ...and demanded an apology. None was given ...and I subsequently removed her e-mail address from my computer ...and "un-friended' her on Facebook. That was an action that I never thought I'd carry out ...but ....my mind had evolved ...as has my sentiments related to tolerating that which offends me ...however slight said offense may be.
> 
> ...so ...at this point I'm working thru my issues with tolerance of being 'abused' ....and we'll see where it leads? No longer am I the one that will be "working" on the marriage. That was the case for way too long ...when it was her job to do the work after betraying me. I think I'm getting over the shame that I carried for so long ...and replacing it with well placed anger for having to wait for SO long for her to come to grips with the damage she inflicted upon me.
> 
> ....so ...that's where I'm at ...now. It's not much of an update ...but as I noted earlier ...I work 2 full time jobs ...and time is at a premium.


This is really sad. You are working 2 full time jobs, ending friendships, destroying family relations, running a small business, coming home to cook and borrowing money all for a wife who said "I'm done with this ...and won't be punished for the rest of my life for one mistake."


> my mind had evolved ...as has my sentiments related to tolerating that which offends me ...however slight said offense may be.


 Sounds like you are lashing out at others, because you don't want any more turmoil with the person who really deserves your ire. Sorry, I call that being devolved. It was wrong, but I can respect your former friend for sticking to her guns. Your wife's actions show her apologies meant nothing.

I hope you see the irony in cutting off a childhood friend for an insult, when every action shows your wife's affair and continued actions are one huge ongoing insult.


----------



## imjustwatching

i just read all your post and let me give you the facts that you already know:
-she cheated while married 
-she called you weird for wanting to know detail about the affair
-she didn't even told you the name of the OM
-sex 0 to 6 in year (0 this year )
-she's overweight

well i guess you won the jackpot my friend she had it all congratulation!


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## harrybrown

Do something to help with the anger.

Something productive not that will get you into trouble.

Take a wake, file for divorce, ask your wife for an std test, or do a DNA test on your daughter without anyone else knowing.

How can she still go to counseling with the lack of funds and the lack of remorst?

The anger thing needs to be controlled. It can get you into big trouble.


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## 5Creed

I think the main question you have to ask yourself is if this is how she is here and now. It doesn't seem like she is going to change at all. No matter how angry and pissed off you feel about life right now-she may not change. It hasn't happened yet. If you want to keep feeling this way; albeit this doesn't seem to be doing yourself any favors at all, then keep on keeping on. So cliche and repeated all the time; but you can change you. You can decide if you can accept that this might be the status quo as long as you are married and together with her. Maybe that is the right choice for you. Maybe not. Your decision of course. No sex for a year though~will this be the marriage from now on? The intimacy is gone. I am so sorry that you have been feeling this way; the anger is a *****. But it doesn't have to be like this the rest of your life if you don't want it to.


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## loyallad

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......although she has her own business, it brings in a fraction of the income we require. She ...for the most part ...has given little 'support' for my working two jobs. She'll criticize me ...saying that I brought this upon myself ...because I didn't finish college ....or, work to expand my engineering business. In my mind ..and maybe its an old-fashioned mind ....I believe that some form of praise should be thrown my way for working as hard as I have been to keep a roof over our heads. Yet, all I seem to get from her is, "what money do you have coming in or is owed to you".
> 
> There's been no sex in over a year ....no real physical affection ...and that begins to play with my mind. I trigger more often than before ....and it manifests itself more in the way of increased anger than anything else. Don't get me wrong ..I still 'hurt' ...but anger is the predominant emotion that comes to the surface these days. And yes ...I know that it's impacting my health. I can feel my blood pressure spike when my mind starts to race with either trigger-like thoughts ...or of the complete indifference she seems to exhibit toward the impacts of all of this on me.


HS, you and I have several things in common. A remorseless WW, TT at best from WW, BP problems (mine started to spike a lot during the terrible angry and bitterness period after DDay). My marriage went through a lot of the same things you are experiencing, WW has no affection for me at all. And love, HA! that's long been gone. My WW basically has checked out. She never wanted to work on putting our marriage back together after her A, no matter how much pain I was in and how just some effort on her part may have helped me. Let me guess, bet she seldom tells you "thanks" for anything you do for her or for the family? Lots of nagging over the smallest of things? May be wrong, but I bet I'm right on those things.

I stayed for the kids, mainly the youngest. He became so emotionally distraught over the thought of WW and myself D. He literally became sick when WW brought up D. I love those kids so much I couldn't put them through that and lord knows what kinda of d*****bag she would have hooked up with and forced the kids to be around. So I've stayed the last couple of years. WW and myself are basically roommates. I decided if after all these years of marriage I am not a priority to her then neither should she be a priority for me. I mourned my marriage being over, except on paper and poured myself into my relationship with my kids, my parents, my sister and her kids. I try to be the best friend anyone can have to my friends. Youngest kid will be out of HS in two years, then I will be moving on.

I worked really hard to forgive WW. And I think I have. Do I let her off the hook for all she has done? Nope, but I learned to let some things go. Otherwise I would have crashed and burned, maybe died or alienate so many people no one would want to be around me. Anger and bitterness was all I had for a while. And it ate at me to the point I could no longer take it. Something had to change.

I no longer love my wife. How can you love someone that can do so many hurtful things to you? I pledged my love to my wife yet she thinks so little of me she had an A, did nothing to help me with the way I felt or try to fix things broken in our marriage. I finally came to that point where I questioned my sanity. Trying to love someone that is constantly mistreating me, keeps me at arms length emotionally and romantically, only wants things her way is in my book stupid and I got enough of doing something stupid.

You see hurtin, you've let what she did take over your life. You need to take your life back. Don't let her and her A and all that other crap define your life. You are more than that.

There's a line from a movie: "You can get busy living or get busy dying". There was a lot more of living I wanted to do. What about you?


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## phillybeffandswiss

harrybrown said:


> Do something to help with the anger.
> 
> Something productive not that will get you into trouble.
> 
> Take a wake, file for divorce, ask your wife for an std test, or do a DNA test on your daughter without anyone else knowing.
> 
> How can she still go to counseling with the lack of funds and the lack of remorst?
> 
> The anger thing needs to be controlled. It can get you into big trouble.


She had checked out long before the funds mattered.


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## nuclearnightmare

Hurtin:

do you have the financial resources to live apart from her for awhile? I mean even 2 miles down the street could help you, I think.


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## Hurtin_Still

GusPolinski said:


> HS, how old are your children? Are any of them still at home?


...."children" are 30, 26, and 19. The oldest was out of the house for about 2 yrs ...and is back again due to his apartment going condo ...and he didn't have the funds to "buy-in" ...so he's back with us. The middle child was out of the house for several months ...and due to a roommate moving away ...is back again. And the youngest is in college ...living there ...but is back sometimes.

....we were "empty nesters" ....for about 5 months ...and I really thought it would have been a time to work stuff out and re-connect.


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## GusPolinski

My guess is that OM is/was (a) someone close to you or (b) someone that you absolutely hate(d).


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## Hurtin_Still

wmn1 said:


> How many times do you think she cheated ? Do you think it was just once ? And what were the circumstances ?
> 
> I don't blame you for being very upset and not taking BS anymore but you need to be careful. What occurred with your wife is on her, it's not on all of these other people and your retaliating or bad temperament among friends (even those who may have helped you in the past or a childhood girlfriend) isn't deserved by them any more than your being cheated on was deserved by you.


...how many times *DO I THINK?* Once ...as she told me that it was a ONS ....but ...when all the details are not on the table ....what I think, believe, think I believe, or don't believe at all ....seem to roll into one big frikkin' mess. 

...and regarding ending the friendship with the childhood girlfriend ....she actually had it coming to her. Her sharp tongue has gotten her in trouble so many times before ....and this was ...I guess ...the last straw. 






wmn1 said:


> no sex in a year. That's not right for her to block you that way. Do you think she's checked out or do you think she's up to no good ? Not to trigger you but just asking


.....oh ...I'm not sure that "checked out" is in play here ...nor do I think that she's up to "no good". But ...(and this is classic) ....when I confronted her recently about the aftermath of one of her therapy sessions [brought about by a discussion of my often negative and angry demeanor]....I said: _"Oh ...well ...have you mentioned in therapy that we hadn't had sex in 13+ months"?_

....the "classic" part is the answer she gave ...which was: _"Why would I want to have sex with someone who's angry all the time"?_

....I really had no answer for her because my lower jaw was on the ground. What I WANTED to blurt out were the many cliche` answers that raced through my head relating to cause and affect ....action and reaction .....but all that I really wanted to do was revert to my 3rd grade level of comebacks and say ...*"Well ...you started it"!!!*

...it's her opinion that I need to fix myself ...and she can't do it for me ....or even help to do so.





Yeswecan said:


> HS, I have read your entire thread. Your W has not supported you in resolving this since it started. That my friend is no W IMO. It appears your W is all about herself. And to further that notion with the quoted post above...you two are effectively room mates. Your are a paycheck and nothing more. Once again, your W is all about herself. If my math is correct your kids are 18+ now. Consider moving on. Seriously, who needs to be brow beaten over what money you are bringing in after being summarily dismissed over infidelity over 18 years ago. And to add...the belittlement concerning not finishing college and the reason your home business is dying a slow death. Last time I checked the country was on a brink of disaster 6 years ago. We are still crawling out from under it. It has nothing to do with your education.


....agree with your comment related to the still struggling economy. It'd be nice (wishful thinking I suppose)...if instead of the criticism related to one below average year of my business ...that I'd get praise for starting the damn company less than 24 hrs after being laid-off ...from a job I had for 12 years ....where the client base I have sought me out the day after I was let go ...and enabled me to take over $500K out of the pockets of my former company ...because my clients were mostly clients of the old company who were seriously miffed that I was let go. 

....yup ...a "way to go" ...'attaboy' .....or "good job" would have been nice to hear .....as would some positive pat on the back for working 2 jobs to keep us afloat this past year. I will admit that the second job pretty much fell in my lap at a time of the greatest financial struggle. But ...you do what you must when you want to keep a roof over your head ...and the lights on and food on the table. (be nice to hear "How are you" when I got home after working yesterday in 8° degree weather. But I guess she was angry or something? :scratchhead:


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## manfromlamancha

Hurtin Still, did you read my last post ? Any comments on it ?

Why don't you just walk away from her ? Try it - nothing else seems to be working so why not?

I have a strong feeling that it will get you some results.


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## Dyokemm

Hurtin,

You keep waiting for HER to do something.

She has already shown you for close to 18 years now that she is NEVER going to do anything to ease your pain or show you basic respect on her own.

My friend,

You're only chance of breaking this limbo h&ll that is slowly killing you (in reality actually with the stress/BP) is for you to channel that anger you are feeling into decisive action.

Print out D paperwork for your state, sit her down, and tell her in no uncertain terms...she either shows you the respect you deserve by giving you the info you need to heal and put this in the past, or you will begin to fill out the papers that instant.

Right now, she not only feels confident that she can defy you and you will do nothing, she even feels confident enough to PLAY THE VICTIM with you for the state of the M today.

Oh...and stop the anxiety of worrying about the paternity of your youngest daughter....do the DNA test already.

No matter how painful it is, it is always better to know and live the truth in life.

Living in doubt and denial is not mentally healthy at all.


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## Divinely Favored

Sorry to say you remind me of a woman who keeps going back to a man that beats her repeatedly....if they can not find some balls to do something about it and force change then I say they must enjoy it and I have no sympathy for them. My MIL has false teeth and numerous facial fractures because she kept taking it and kept her kids in hell for years because she loved him. I am truly grateful he took his own life before I married my wife or I most likely would have done it for him. The family is screwed up because she never took a stand.


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## Granny7

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....I am still around ....just not as often ....or available as I'd like to be in order to check in to either provide updates ...or to just
> validate to myself that I'm not alone with these painful issues.
> 
> ...this past year has been very trying for me ...on several different fronts.
> 
> ...to begin with ...my business had slowed to a snail's pace early in 2014 ....with the main issue being that clients took forever to pay their invoices. That being the case ...I (we) were dangerously close to falling behind on our mortgage ...and the possibility of losing our house was very much a reality. We were able to borrow one month's mortgage from family ...and catch up and right the ship ...sort of.
> 
> ....all this was happening in early spring of '14 just as I had stopped going to see the therapist / counselor ....either alone or with my wife. That decision was made necessary by my having the opportunity to start a second job ...and hence not having any free time to go to therapy. I work this new job during the day, (it's maintenance service business) ...and most days I'm working at least 10 hours ...with 12+ hour days not uncommon in the summer months. Then ...I head home ...shove some food in my face (which btw ...I usually end up cooking) ...and then head to my home-office to work on my business (I do engineering / site development work) ...and work till at least 1 am every night ...and pretty much all weekends.
> 
> ..... all this was happening in the wake of some very heated sessions of therapy ...where I was still trying to convey my feelings of hurt to my wife ...and she was basically not having any of it (her quote one session:_ "I'm done with this ...and won't be punished for the rest of my life for one mistake"_.
> 
> ....so ...with two jobs going on ....I got the money situation to a somewhat better place. But the stress of both jobs ...along with what I believe to be PTSD from her cheating ...(even if it was almost 20 yrs ago) ....took its toll on my health ...without my knowledge. Out of nowhere my blood pressure sky-rocketed ...to the point where I had it verified at a pharmacy ...and the pharmacist told me to get to a doctor ASAP ...for fear I'd have a stroke. So ...now I have BP meds to remember to take every night ....(the joys of middle-age-dom)
> 
> ....where I'm 'at' emotionally ....mentally ...is kinda' all over the place. It seems that much of the "hurt" that my wife caused me has rapidly evolved into *extreme* anger. It sits just below the surface ..until something lights its very short fuse. The notion that she just doesn't care to deal with what I feel ...is probably the biggest source of the anger. She still goes to the therapist ....and that infuriates me ...because she will deal with "her" issues ...and not "us" issues.
> 
> ....I think I'm getting to the point of not really giving a sh!t any longer. That sentiment has permeated my entire being. The most common reaction to my commentary on MANY subjects is that, _"Don't you have a 'filter' any more"?_ Actually ...no ...I don't. I tell my family ..."I was 'filtered' for 52 years ...and it appears to be broken now". My tolerance for bullsh!t is non-existent ...regardless of where it originates. A prime example relates to my unwillingness to deal with any insult ...even from close friends. For several years I had contact with a former childhood girlfriend. We were able to talk about our old neighborhood ...friends we knew ...teachers we had in grade school ....yadda yadda yadda. That kind of mindless every-so-often banter can keep you thinking "young'. well ...out of nowhere ....a little over a year ago ...she made a disparaging remark about my wife's weight issue. I called her on it ...and demanded an apology. None was given ...and I subsequently removed her e-mail address from my computer ...and "un-friended' her on Facebook. That was an action that I never thought I'd carry out ...but ....my mind had evolved ...as has my sentiments related to tolerating that which offends me ...however slight said offense may be.
> 
> ...so ...at this point I'm working thru my issues with tolerance of being 'abused' ....and we'll see where it leads? No longer am I the one that will be "working" on the marriage. That was the case for way too long ...when it was her job to do the work after betraying me. I think I'm getting over the shame that I carried for so long ...and replacing it with well placed anger for having to wait for SO long for her to come to grips with the damage she inflicted upon me.
> 
> ....so ...that's where I'm at ...now. It's not much of an update ...but as I noted earlier ...I work 2 full time jobs ...and time is at a premium.


Hurting Still,
I tried to respond to your last post where you filled everyone in and for some reason it wouldn't let me? I was signed in and everything. Someone needs to check why this is happening? I was also trying to hit "Like" and the same thing is what happened. 

Anyway, I have already responded to what you wrote in a short version. I am going through pretty much the same thing, except my CH is wanting the marriage to work. Now I don't know if I even love him or not? I moved into our guest room about a month ago and the last thing I want is for him to touch me. I am depressed, angry and fed up, like you, with not knowing if I know the truth. Also that he has no patience when I trigger and lately that's been a lot. I told him last night that I didn't deserve what happened and his comment was, "We all are never sure what we are going to deserve in life." I almost threw something at him and totally lost it. He doesn't even know what the word "Empathy" means. Like your wife, he feels that I shouldn't be bringing up something that happened almost 30 yrs. ago. My response is, "If you had told the truth and talked about it back then, we wouldn't have to discuss it today. It's his actions a few yrs. ago that brought it all back to me, as I've explained.

Anyway, sorry to ramble. You seriously need to be concerned about your health. She's not worth a heart attack, seriously. Also find out about your "daughter" so that you can put that to bed. Stop worrying about having sex with your wife, she doesn't deserve you right now. I hope that I've said something that will help you out.

Granny7


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## Acoa

Hurtin_Still said:


> _ "I'm done with this ...and won't be punished for the rest of my life for one mistake"_.



My ex had said something similar after Dday 1. I had caught her having cybersex over FB. I was devastated and angry. She played it off as my problem. She acted like she had a minor lapse of judgment and didn't think it was a big deal and that I was overreacting.

Turns out that's because it was just the tip of a very large iceberg. The depth of her depravity was very well concealed. 

I think the logic was "I'm not going to keep paying for THIS mistake the rest of my life" because she knew she had done much worse.


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## LongWalk

Your wife may love you but she either disrespects you, herself or both of you. She lacks self control.

Filing for divorce will educate her. Lesson one: Serial cheat leads to divorce.


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## nuclearnightmare

LongWalk said:


> Your wife may love you but she either disrespects you, herself or both of you. She lacks self control.
> 
> Filing for divorce will educate her. Lesson one: Serial cheat leads to divorce.


Hurtin - 

I agree with your wife. you do need to fix yourself. leaving her and divorcing her being the first two steps in that process...


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