# Rise of the man child......



## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

Hi everyone,
I was having a discussion with some co-workers this morning and I was wondering how the TAM community would respond. Let me say up front I'm a man and am looking at this from my perspective(this isn't meant to be a male/female bashing thread).

Our discussion was focused on what we collectively called the “man-child”(or women-child). It seems there are a lot of grown adults out there who seem to spend more time in recreational activities than with their families. Whether it’s participating in sports, going to bars or playing video games these men seem to value their recreation time more than family time. 

A couple of examples from people who are close to me…….all of these people have families. They do these activities without their families;

My BIL is into hockey. He has a game or practice 3 times per week(I know, we’ve had to watch his kids on occasion). He leaves from work to go to hockey, usually gets home late(after 11:00).

A couple of my friends are season ticket holders for the Patriots. On game days they head down in the morning, attend the game and usually go out to dinner after the game. This past year they spent big bucks and actually went to the Super Bowl! In the spring/summer they’ll go to Red Sox games frequently but aren’t ticket holders.

My boss is an avid golfer. He’s in a couple of leagues so afternoon’s in the summertime(usually Mondays and Wednesdays) he’ll leave work early to play. I know he gets home late from golfing, he also golfs on the weekend but I’m unaware how often. In a couple of weeks he’s heading to Florida with a couple of buddies for a week long golf getaway……they do this every spring.

I know these guys do other activities as well without their families, I just didn’t put in all the other stuff(poker night/skiing/etc).

For perspective, I used to go to a gym a few nights a week after work, I’d get home an hour later than usual…….I felt guilty about that. Now I have everything for working out in my basement. I guess I value the time I spend with the fam-damily.

So in general how do you folks feel about this? I know everyone should have hobbies and “get-away” time but how much is too much? When I grew up if there was recreation involved the whole family did it. We’d all go fishing or hiking or to the movies…….my dad would take me hunting. How and when did this behavior begin to manifest itself? I know in a couple of the examples above the men came from broken families(i.e. weak or no fathers). Is it due to people having more disposable income? Is it a reflection of the deterioration of the family unit? Are there women who also have this problem and have trouble growing up? Is it as prevalent in women as it is in men?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I'll blame this in part, possibly in large part, on social media. And it most certainly not just a man thing...

Think of all of the keeping up with the Jones' crap on Facebook, celebrity worship at an all time high, self help material, relationship material from all the "experts" and so on...add to that the "everybody gets a trophy" mindset, and everything has to be about the kids, and kids have to have every minute of every day packed with activities...

It's just complete information overload that most people simply cannot cope with...


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> I'll blame this in part, possibly in large part, on social media. And it most certainly not just a man thing...
> 
> Think of all of the keeping up with the Jones' crap on Facebook, celebrity worship at an all time high, self help material, relationship material from all the "experts" and so on...add to that the "everybody gets a trophy" mindset, and everything has to be about the kids, and kids have to have every minute of every day packed with activities...
> 
> It's just complete information overload that most people simply cannot cope with...


Good point, never even thought of the social media aspect!


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Youngster said:


> Hi everyone,
> I was having a discussion with some co-workers this morning and I was wondering how the TAM community would respond. Let me say up front I'm a man and am looking at this from my perspective(this isn't meant to be a male/female bashing thread).
> 
> Our discussion was focused on what we collectively called the “man-child”(or women-child). It seems there are a lot of grown adults out there who seem to spend more time in recreational activities than with their families. Whether it’s participating in sports, going to bars or playing video games these men seem to value their recreation time more than family time.
> ...


I think everyone needs alone time or time with just their friends. It can be done in excess but as long as it's balanced I think it is a good thing. I'm not sure what that has to do with being a man child or a woman child. It doesn't always have to be sports. For me, it would be going off somewhere and reading a good book alone. I think everyone needs to take time for themselves or they become unhealthy.


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## Angelou (Oct 21, 2014)

It's like they want to feed the self ego more. Self image. "Look at me, I'm awesome!"


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I question this concept when it comes to men with families. I think what's actually happened is that the expectation on men to spend time with their families has risen -- it used to be that it was more the norm for men to have regular recreational activities outside the home.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Moved this into the Clubhouse.

I think it's a worthwhile discussion.

I think there are few levels of being a man-child.

There is the guy that is aware of his own wants and freedom, and as a result shuns the concept of marriage. Many younger, urban, tech savvy men seem to be favoring this model at an age where there female counterparts are looking for mates and fathers.

There is the man-child who gets married and knocks his wife up, and is somehow shocked or dismayed when his family makes demands upon his time. He flat out doesn't have the chops to live up to the 'man' portion. He signed up to have a care-taker, not to be a leader and provider.

I don't think a man that expresses interests outside the scope of his partner or family necessarily falls into the bucket of man-child.

It's how he balances meeting the needs of his family, while meeting his own.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Angelou said:


> It's like they want to feed the self ego more. Self image. "Look at me, I'm awesome!"


Well yes, but some of us ARE awesome.


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

Lots of good points. When would people say it's too much recreation and not enough family time? 

For me;
My wife and I both work so mornings at my house are a zoo. The only quality time available are nights and weekends. So best case I have maybe 40 hours a week to spend with the family(4 hours per day during the week, say 10 hours per day on the weekend). 
In reality between homework/chores/working out/shopping/activities there might only be 10 hours available per week. If I took up a time intensive activity I'd feel like I'd never see anyone!

Isn't there something about spending 15 hours of quality time a week with your spouse? I have no idea how that could happen.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Youngster said:


> So in general how do you folks feel about this? I know everyone should have hobbies and “get-away” time but how much is too much? When I grew up if there was recreation involved the whole family did it. We’d all go fishing or hiking or to the movies…….my dad would take me hunting. How and when did this behavior begin to manifest itself? I know in a couple of the examples above the men came from broken families(i.e. weak or no fathers). * Is it due to people having more disposable income? *Is it a reflection of the deterioration of the family unit? Are there women who also have this problem and have trouble growing up? Is it as prevalent in women as it is in men?


I think that could play a part in it. When I was a kid, my blue collar parents both worked and sometimes worked double shifts. At home, they were busy with the huge vegetable garden, home maintenance and repair, housework, etc., or were exhausted from their shifts.

So not only did they really not have endless amounts of free time, they also didn't want to spend their hard-earned money on things that were not part of their financial plan - pay off the mortgage, send kids to college, save up for a comfortable retirement.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Well yes, but some of us ARE awesome.


Some of us simply cant help it...:smthumbup:

Since my ex-wife so kindly decided to give me every other week "free" from my children...I have taken to living two lives...Devoted Dad and Playboy Millionaire Philanthropist, Tony Stark...minus the millionaire part.

I have several friends who got bagged in a divorce and work hard to keep up the payments to their kids. They also play very hard.
Otherwise the situation would get the best of them.
Cant have that.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I always thought "man child" was supposed to describe guys in their 20s and 30s who can't commit to relationships, careers, etc., just kind of putter around playing video games etc.


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## CincyBluesFan (Feb 27, 2015)

I took up golf years ago. I tried to get my wife to play but she didn't like it. I continued to go on weekends with friends until it dawned on me this was time I could be spending with her and the kids. I never played golf again. It's been about 15 years and I don't regret it for 1 second. The fun of golf is completely insignificant compared to the joy of quality time with the family.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

John Lee said:


> I always thought "man child" was supposed to describe guys in their 20s and 30s who can't commit to relationships, careers, etc., just kind of putter around playing video games etc.


I think we could lay all this out in a spectrum. Differing degrees and situations. 
The types you describe above are mostly a product of women simply not NEEDING men anymore...Thus they are free to enjoy an extended childhood...more or less.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Youngster said:


> Lots of good points. When would people say it's too much recreation and not enough family time?


I read the book "My Foot is Too Big for the Glass Slipper"

It was written by Gabrielle Reese, former pro volley ball player, who is married to Laird Hamilton, professional surfer.

To me, context is the big one.

If my recreation is paying the bills, such as a pro athlete, odds are my spouse is willing to accept that there will be very long hauls where I'm not available to the family at all. But in context, nobody questions that.

Whereas, if I get home from my wage slave job that I hate, kiss the wife and kids, read stories, put them to bed; wife sits down in front of the TV and I log in to play CoD or WoW for the next six hours ... this may be seen as a completely different thing.

If me and my spouse met while rock climbing and I continue with my endeavor on weekends, while my wife who is now also a mom stays home with our growing brood and she is ok with it, am I being a man-child?

All of it is going to depend upon who is having the conversation with who.

If your behavior means you are consistently deprioritizing and disappointing your family to the detriment of your wife and children, then there is an issue.

Take the same guy, same circumstances and put him with a partner that accepts and celebrates her own pursuits and they support each other, and you have something different.

So, that discussion about what is recreational, and how much is too much is probably an important one to have when it comes to marriage.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I don't think this a new thing at all I remember when I was a kid. 35 plus years ago. that some of my friend fathers were never around. some were always working but there were a fair bit that always went to the bar or golfing. spending time doing their hobby instead of doing anything with their children.

now there are more distractions hell I know some men that are over 30yrs old and can't wait to get home fro work and play video games. they have small children but instead of reading to them before bed time they lock themselves in their man cave and play video games with strangers .

I know lots of adults are gamers good for you if you are but I just can't wrap my head around playing video game wasting your precious time on blips on a screen.

Just not my style. 

I enjoy spending time with my family. even if its doing chores together laughing joking around just being in their company is fun and enjoyable to me. they will only be young for so long and I intend to soak every min of it up that I can.


I also think their are just as many woman childs. put more effort into home décor parties, candle parties Avon ,you name it even sex toy parties. 

as a matter of fact I think I might be unbalanced with not doing enough for me. there has to be a balance or when your kids leave when they become adults you have this empty void to fill and it can be hard to deal with.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Probably half of all adult males you see weren't raised with a man in the household. How would they learn what the proper role for a man with a family might be? I'm astonished at how many alleged men don't even attempt to work but are content to let the mother of their children work two jobs. Most of the unemployed guys I arrest pick up the phone and call a woman to come make bond for them. Could be their mother, grandmother, baby mama, or sister. It's pretty sick. 
If a boy in public school exhibits normal male behavior, the SWAT team gets a call. I know I'm going to date myself, but as a kid, I was exposed to strong male role models at home, on TV, at school, at church, at work (Yeah, kids used to work). Where did they go? Males in the media are either depicted as buffoons, gay, sensitive geeks, or glittery, pale, 90 lb vampires. Seems like most depictions of strength and leadership in the media these days are women. I'm not at all surprised men would rather play than be responsible adults.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

yep just look at all the hunger game movies the man hero is now a woman!

and its becoming more and more prevalent.

I wonder how many female snipers there are in the real world?

feminism at its finest! watch what you ask for because you just might get it!


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

Deejo said:


> I read the book "My Foot is Too Big for the Glass Slipper"
> 
> It was written by Gabrielle Reese, former pro volley ball player, who is married to Laird Hamilton, professional surfer.
> 
> ...


I agree context is a big part of it. 

If men choose to stay single and never get married they might be acting like children or maybe it's just a lifestyle decision they have made. I don't necessarily agree with the lifestyle but I don't see these men are shirking their responsibilities.

Families that have parents that need to be away, such as your pro athlete example or even folks in the armed forces don't really have a choice. Their occupation is forcing them to spend less time with their family.

My issue(or at least the discussion I was involved in) was concerning men who choose to recreate in excess over spending time with their family(like your rock climber example). My thoughts are the inability of men to prioritize their family over recreation make them a man-child. 

Even if the spouse is OK with being deprioritized is this right? In many of us there is a right or wrong light that goes off, we take on our responsibilities whether we want to or not. With these man-children it seems they want to continue having fun(like children) until they get caught(i.e. their wife stops them). 

I don't know if the light on these men ever goes off. Is this light learned behavior? When you sign up for marriage and kids shouldn't you have already made the decision to make them your top priority?


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> I don't think this a new thing at all I remember when I was a kid. 35 plus years ago. that some of my friend fathers were never around. some were always working but there were a fair bit that always went to the bar or golfing. spending time doing their hobby instead of doing anything with their children.
> 
> now there are more distractions hell I know some men that are over 30yrs old and can't wait to get home fro work and play video games. they have small children but instead of reading to them before bed time they lock themselves in their man cave and play video games with strangers .
> 
> ...


I hear you. During the winter my son and I move wood from the main woodpile into the garage. We do this every every week, usually on the weekend. It takes us about an hour, not a big deal....I swear that hour I spend with him is one of the high points of my week. Nothing special just stacking wood, walking and talking about life.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I think the hallmark of a man-childzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (the z's are from my cat..i'll just leave them there :cat: ) is reflected in his _over_ or _under_-compensating for the missing pieces of his advance from boyhood into manhood...more interested in what he does to further the image he wants to project, versus a man who acts from his integrity and personal ethic.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

Youngster said:


> . . . .
> 
> Our discussion was focused on what we collectively called the “man-child”(or women-child). It seems there are a lot of grown adults out there who seem to spend more time in recreational activities than with their families. Whether it’s participating in sports, going to bars or playing video games these men seem to value their recreation time more than family time.
> 
> ...


Howdy Youngster,

I think this is some of the most important conversation that we as a society should be having and are not!

You’ve bought up some likely root causes but I definitely believe there is more to it.

In many regards I believe there has been a fundamental shift in parenting and child rearing tactics. AKA the “Helicopter Parents” or the “Tiger Mom”. So much of our children’s activities anymore are highly scheduled, structured and regimented.

On-the-other-hand, traditional Father/Child and Mother/Child activities have lost their “appeal”. I speak of things like Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, Brownies and Girl Scouts, YMCA Guide programs and a whole host of others e.g., Awana and other church youth programs.

The so what of it all – I’m not entirely sure but I think the trend is toward a stronger need of structure and regimentation in our youth and less of a sense of overall community.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Well, two things

1) 27 is the new 18 so childhood technically extends to about age 30 
2) A whole generation financially gutted so casual amusements is all that's left for them to do.


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

SpinDaddy said:


> Howdy Youngster,
> 
> I think this is some of the most important conversation that we as a society should be having and are not!
> 
> ...


Lots of good points. I was a cub scout den leader for a number of years........definitely brought my son and I closer together. I remember a lot of the parents would dump and run from the den meetings. As den leaders we used to refer to our selves as BSA(Boy Scouts of America) Baby-sitters of America!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

For the love of all things bacon, let's please not make this into a woman thing.
Unless we want to blame them for the creation of man-children too ... 

I want men to be better men, and better fathers.

The person whose opinion tends to matter most in those endeavors, is the individual in question.

The problem as I see it, where matrimony is concerned, is often times the man-child is extraordinarily appealing, fun and charming in the courting phase, and then their partners feel short-changed when they don't transition to the 'nesting' phase. 

I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with being a man-child ... except of course when it is being used in the derogatory way to describe a slacker, out of touch, selfish husband and father ... which odds are, he was prior to being a husband and father.

Sometimes it goes in reverse, as Samurai Jack said. I fall into that category as well.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Let's tackle this question in a few different levels.

The first may be biology. Neotony is a common evolutionary element, it is the retention of childhood traits into adulthood.
Neoteny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One may argue that humans spend the largest percentage of their life in 'play' and that can derive several advantages: reduction of stress, learning new traits, extending creative problem spaces in the mind, staying fit, etc.

And these traits can map pretty cleanly into the modern realm of living in a complex, high stress, high rate of social change culture... i.e. western living.

So there's that.

One can also say that the industrial revolution promised shorter working hours, more leisure time, and the rise of the leisure class.

This, of course, hasn't worked out. We still have our industrial revolution working week, only now it's been pushed into evenings and weekends thanks to smartphones and tablets.

So there's also that.

There is also the sense, at least in my generation... of asking "why am I doing this?" For me, I watched my father work himself nearly to death, become spectacularly wealthy, create a company... and then burn out, freak out, and go through a midlife crisis. And thanks to all of that, I have maintained a pretty strong work/life balance... one that blends work and life together.

I play a lot. Martial arts, gym, mountain biking, skiing, and even the occasional video game and netflix binge watch. 

Usually, I spend my play time with my family. But there are times that I don't. I try to put their needs first, but sometimes I have to put myself first so that I can come back and put their needs first again. It's like putting an oxygen mask on when a plane depressurizes; you have to put yours on first to make sure you stay conscious long enough to put your kid's masks on.

The key, of course, is the balance. I know lots of guys who work their ass off and then play their ass off without their family, who gets none of their time or energy. Problem.

And I know people that think I play way too much; they can have that opinion. They don't see that my play time is usually my family time, or the conference calls I make on vacation. 

The point I'm trying to make is that the rise of this is probably predicated directly by industrial revolution perspectives on modern society, and amplified by those that can't find the balance.

For me, blending my work, family, and play time together has been the key. And bringing a sense of play to work and family has been a good thing, for various reasons.

Play on!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Well, two things
> 
> 1) 27 is the new 18 so childhood technically extends to about age 30
> 2) A whole generation financially gutted so casual amusements is all that's left for them to do.


This is not about finances. Welfare recipients have a higher standard of living than my father or any male in my family before him had. Poverty isn't new. It used to be called "life" for most people on this earth.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Youngster said:


> How and when did this behavior begin to manifest itself?


It does not strike me as anything new. Only the diversions have changed.

It also seems to me that generations tend to oscillate a bit, with sons vowing not to make the mistakes of their fathers.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm still a child.

My toys (harleys, ATVs, drones, jaguars) are simply more expensive now than they were when I was 40 years younger (baseball bats, board games and so on.)


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

marduk said:


> Let's tackle this question in a few different levels.
> 
> The first may be biology. Neotony is a common evolutionary element, it is the retention of childhood traits into adulthood.
> Neoteny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You had me at neotany ...

The biology geek in me loved that stuff, particularly paedomorphism.

My daughter has a paedomorphic salamander as a pet; an axolotl, which is the amphibious equivalent of a man-child. It retains it's larval form all of it's life. That and it looks like Toothless from How to Train your Dragon









/thread jack end


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## Hopelessus (Oct 29, 2014)

Alone time is good. But its not fair to others in the family if they wait all day/week to see a loved one.


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

Men these days spend more time with children than at any point in the past that sociologists could track. Perhaps the pendulum has just begun swinging back from one extreme (men who are home every single night) to another (men of a century ago who wouldn't touch a diaper).


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

When I was growing up I never heard the phrase "their brains aren't fully developed until they are 25". It was more like "use your brains!" Heard that since I was 5 years old. 

I think people have lowered their expectation of young people. Their academic expectations seem to be too high and their emotional expectations too low or absent all together. 

I'm an odd parent. I expect respect at all times, I expect him to behave like a gentleman, I expect him to be a responsible member of the family (that's not about house chores). I expect him to handle his school work. I expect him to use his brains, his emotional intelligence and his self control. 

For the most part I get what I expect from the young man I'm raising. 

I hear parents all the time say their son is irresponsible, lazy and they must monitor them all the time. I imagine they get what they expect from their sons also.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm 50 and am a man child. Why? Because when I was a kid my parents were on a tight budget and now...well I'm making sufficient money to be able to do and have the things I/my parents couldn't afford.

I have a quad bike....boys toys...I love it :smthumbup:
Nothing better than riding it through mud and water n'stuff! 
Wahay!!...Weeeeee.....Phoarrrrrrr!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Well, two things
> 
> 1) 27 is the new 18 so childhood technically extends to about age 30
> 2) A whole generation financially gutted so casual amusements is all that's left for them to do.


Interesting comment.

I look at this man-child or women-child issue from a perspective of taking resources (money and energy in addition to time). The particular activity is unimportant since everyone has their preferences.

I feel these casual amusements are driving financial issues as much as being driven by them. Seems like most of these activities carry substantial cost. Going to 10 football games is a few thousand dollars by the time you count all the costs. Someone playing in a serious rec league could spend as much or more on dues and equipment.

To your first point, I think that is due in large part to the effort needed to have a satisfying career. For most, that means getting a degree. So you enter college at 18 or 19, spend four or more years getting the diploma you need, a couple of years proving yourself in the workplace, and only then are you making the money to support a family (note that college grads do make substantially more, but only in the long run).

I would not classify that as being a child, but as the opposite - having the maturity to invest in oneself and delay gratification.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Good afternoon
My Girl Child spends at least 5 hours a day playing Empire and controlling 13-15 year old boys in the game, what would society's comment be if this was face to face. She is 58 years of age.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

DTO said:


> Interesting comment.
> 
> I look at this man-child or women-child issue from a perspective of taking resources (money and energy in addition to time). The particular activity is unimportant since everyone has their preferences.
> 
> ...


I very very much agree. And sometimes for the career of choice it is not just undergraduate but graduate/medical/law (I'm pursuing a graduate degree in OT). 

That means I have to delay gratification I could get from going out now and getting a job. I devote 40 hours a week to studying as well as working part time and trying to fit in family/fiance time. 

School is hard work. For me it has never been delaying adulthood. It was what taught me patience and to look long term. 

Though I do not like them, the heavy debts have given a new meaning to money and a willingness to work extremely hard and retain very little money once I start working. This is a lesson in learning to do without.

I don't think the blame is on school, men or women. I think the adult who shirks responsibility has always been with us. At the turn of the last century it was fathers who drank until midnight instead of coming home, and it was women who spent most of their time socializing and on appearance instead of paying attention to their children.

What I find interesting is that almost all of us have listed not taking care of children as being the biggest indicator of being irresponsible.

I am someone who does not plan on having children and has some very high biological incentives not to! Just as a hypothetical question. Would that make me a woman-child as I will not have the responsibility of kids? Or would paying my bills, working hard at my job, being a responsible community member and being a responsible family member and wife be enough?


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I very very much agree. And sometimes for the career of choice it is not just undergraduate but graduate/medical/law (I'm pursuing a graduate degree in OT).
> 
> That means I have to delay gratification I could get from going out now and getting a job. I devote 40 hours a week to studying as well as working part time and trying to fit in family/fiance time.
> 
> ...


Personally, I wouldn't see you as a women-child at all.

If anyone decides not to get married and/or have children that is their choice. It is a life decision that they have made, for whatever reason.

My issue is with people who get married, have kids and feel like they get to keep partying like they just turned 21. They signed up for the spouse and kids, it's now their responsibility to foster those relationships. I don't see how anyone can say "we only spend a few hours a week together but we have a great relationship".

In my eyes, failure to fulfill their responsibilities is what makes a person a man/women child.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Youngster said:


> So in general how do you folks feel about this? I know everyone should have hobbies and “get-away” time but how much is too much?


How much is too much is totally dependent on the man, his family and their needs and wants. Period.

I think it's downright bizarre to be looking across the way into the lives of other people and judging them as "man-children", whatever that means, based solely off your personal criteria for what constitutes appropriate recreational time. If you feel guilty about going to the gym, so be it, but nobody should feel guilty because you want to spend all day and night with your family.

All of this is rather myopic anyway. Tons of cultures around the world feature both married men and women spending a considerable amount of social time apart. Millions, if not billions, live their lives in a way that includes family AND regular social recreation time with others. Hell it use to be far more prevalent in the west before we were overtaken by our current, collective overworked mentality. Suggesting that a man must be defined by the number of hours he dedicates exclusively to his wife and/or children makes zero sense to me.

A good man caters to his family's needs. And what those needs are will shift depending on the family structure. That's the cue all men should take, not some arbitrary amount of hours with family that supposedly make you an official grown up man.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> I very very much agree. And sometimes for the career of choice it is not just undergraduate but graduate/medical/law (I'm pursuing a graduate degree in OT).
> 
> That means I have to delay gratification I could get from going out now and getting a job. I devote 40 hours a week to studying as well as working part time and trying to fit in family/fiance time.
> 
> ...



You go sister! I raised my little brother since my father passed away, and even before that. Children, no thanks.

There was a marshmallow research. It tested the impulse control of children. Years later when these children turned into adults, the ones who delayed instant gratification, ended up with higher education, good careers, and a better over all life than the children that did not. Generally anyways, since some of those same children later learned better impulse control. The test was a child got one marshmalow now, but if they wait for a certain period of time, they got two instead.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> What I find interesting is that almost all of us have listed not taking care of children as being the biggest indicator of being irresponsible.
> 
> I am someone who does not plan on having children and has some very high biological incentives not to! Just as a hypothetical question. Would that make me a woman-child as I will not have the responsibility of kids? Or would paying my bills, working hard at my job,* being a responsible community member* and being a responsible family member and wife be enough?


Maria I like that bit. My man child hobby (and it does eat up some money) is responsible community member related. I'm almost an empty nester. I might spend 2 hours a month helping my college student with math. Similar or smaller amounts keeping in touch with me working daughters. My son is a Jr in High School so I spend a bit more time with him. 
He cooks as well or better than me now so self feeding is possible if he is ahead of homework. So I have little need to devote more time to my children. I don't feel guilt for my Hobby and my wife does not resent it. 

My Man child hobby is scouting. My son is sometimes involved, but in a year and a half he will be on to other things. I have some associated hobbies, camping, knot tying, kayaking, and lately hiking. All of this requires time money and equipment. I'm spending as much as I want to on this hobby. It could be said that because my hobby offers the community a service that makes it less of a man child thing. But to me getting out with the boys is at least child like. It offers distraction, adventure, escape, and much of what men want in a hobby.

I don't mind it being my man child thing.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

When I posed the question of having children or not, that was not because I wanted people to validate my decision (I realized a long time ago to not have that decision weighed by the opinions of others) but to get us thinking about what markers we use to identify adulthood as different from childhood. Unlike tribal or agricultural societies, we don't have the clear cultural markers we did before. Children is one of the last few.

I would agree with *Youngster*. It is not specifically about what activity you do, but if it interferes with your responsibilities. I am re-entering a Masters program. If my hobby overtook my ability to complete it, that would be acting more like a child than a woman. 

So *Mr. Nail*, I would not say that is being a man-child and the fact that you can bring your passion to help others must be so satisfying. It doesn't get in the way of any responsibilities and shows that you have a passion for life and exploring. I myself really got into knot-tying as I love sailing and piloting. I was involved with CAP for nearly all of my youth which is like a more military version of the Boy Scouts. Some of the best memories of my childhood are with them. I am sure that those whom you mentor will never forget the opportunities you offered and the men you helped shape them into.

*Mr. Fisty*, I cannot imagine what it was like to become a father to your brother. I am proud of you for taking on that responsibility and I am sure your brother is as well. I love children, but I just do not like the job of children. I do hope to work with them in my job though. And thanks for the support  It all helps.

I do find it odd how studying is viewed as just doing whatever you want when I really see it as a prolonged exercise in impulse control. I also see having a full-time job and raising children as prolonged exercises in impulse control.


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

jaquen said:


> How much is too much is totally dependent on the man, his family and their needs and wants. Period.
> *So if a guys goes out drinking every night and sees his kids for a couple of hours on the weekends that's OK? Is he meeting his families needs? Is he a good parent? Would YOU be OK with that?
> 
> The real life problem is that these man-children are ONLY meeting their own needs.
> ...


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## Youngster (Sep 5, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Maria I like that bit. My man child hobby (and it does eat up some money) is responsible community member related. I'm almost an empty nester. I might spend 2 hours a month helping my college student with math. Similar or smaller amounts keeping in touch with me working daughters. My son is a Jr in High School so I spend a bit more time with him.
> He cooks as well or better than me now so self feeding is possible if he is ahead of homework. So I have little need to devote more time to my children. I don't feel guilt for my Hobby and my wife does not resent it.
> 
> My Man child hobby is scouting. My son is sometimes involved, but in a year and a half he will be on to other things. I have some associated hobbies, camping, knot tying, kayaking, and lately hiking. All of this requires time money and equipment. I'm spending as much as I want to on this hobby. It could be said that because my hobby offers the community a service that makes it less of a man child thing. But to me getting out with the boys is at least child like. It offers distraction, adventure, escape, and much of what men want in a hobby.
> ...


I was a den leader for 4 years. Don't know that I would call it a man-child thing.......lots of responsibility even though it was lots of fun. My son has moved on to Boy Scouts, now I'm just a parent.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Youngster said:


> So if a guys goes out drinking every night and sees his kids for a couple of hours on the weekends that's OK? Is he meeting his families needs? Is he a good parent? Would YOU be OK with that?


Did I state, or even imply, that this kind of behavior was OK? Quote the portion of my post which lead you to make that astronomical leap.




Youngster said:


> What's bizarre is that my BIL's kids are at my house all the time so he can play hockey and drink afterwards. Your right, I'll call a man a man-child based off my personal criteria...if you think that he's a great father I guess that's your personal criteria.


I don't know your BIL from a crack in the sidewalk. So, again, where are you arriving at the conclusion that I think of a person I don't know, and didn't comment on, as a "great father"?




Youngster said:


> Exactly which cultures are we talking about? Is it the stoning, be-heading, honor killing, arranged marriage or female genital mutilation culture? Just want to know which one we should strive to become.


What? I mention that there are other cultures, and in times past the greater western culture, where different standards are placed on leisure and family time balance and you come back with talk of beheadings, honor killings, arranged marriage and female circumcision? How are these two notions related?



Youngster said:


> IMO a man should be judged by the father and husband he is. Not by the ability to make birdie a par 4 3 nights a week.


I agree.

Then again, who ever suggested fatherhood was defined by one's golf game? 



Youngster said:


> I agree you could never set an arbitrary number of hours. My problem is when recreation time is FAR exceeding time with the family. When these "men" would rather spend all their free time anywhere than with the wife and kids.


No this is an amendment to your original post. Your original post doesn't suggest such absolutes as "far exceeds" time with family or men who'd rather spend "all their free time" anywhere than with wife and kids.

If that were actually the point you made from post 1 in this thread you'd have gotten nothing but a round of applause from me.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I've learned that my upbringing isn't necessarily typical of everyone, but it does seem like adults need a lot more "recreation"
that when I was a kid. 

My parent's idea of enjoyment was visiting friends, relaxing at home, annual get-togethers, or taking us kids somewhere for fun, and it really blows my mind when I hear people complain that all their spouse wants to do is play video games. It's difficult for me to picture myself as an adult having video games at the top of my priority or fun list.


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