# Marrying up or down



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

This started as a sidebar in another thread and it really needs its own... What do y'all think about cultures where the woman is expected to marry up (or at least equal) but it's ok for the man to marry down (lolz).

Obviously we're talking overseas cultures. This came to be because of two such marriages in wife's family - one a catastrophic failure and the other very likely in a few years.

The first is an MD lady married to a 4 year degree self employed guy making a lot less. Bad ending. The second, 4 year engineering degree girl gets married to a highschool diploma guy working the family business (building materials manufacturing but not very wealthy). 

My own girls will likely have to figure this out in America, one a PhD in a few years and the other an MD in a few years. As a parent I can see the fallacy of "marrying down" but also have first hand experience of "marrying equal" LOLZ. 

Other foreign cultures are like that, too. I know lots of Indian or Chinese PhDs and anecdotal evidence seems to suggest some selection bias to say the least. But that's just my circle.

What's the common wisdom of a more equitable () culture where everything goes? Or does it?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> This started as a sidebar in another thread and it really needs its own... What do y'all think about cultures where the woman is expected to marry up (or at least equal) but it's ok for the man to marry down (lolz).
> 
> Obviously we're talking overseas cultures. This came to be because of two such marriages in wife's family - one a catastrophic failure and the other very likely in a few years.
> 
> ...


That will teach you to threadjack jld's thread John.lol.
I still stand by what I said about education.If you are making a lot of money why go back for more degrees,masters even the glories of a PhD don't really register if you have no real use for it.You know what is said about an economist with a PhD?
When I still ran my own installation business I had design engineers,architects,lawyers,civil engineers and dozens of lesser educated mortals such as electricians and machine operators etc all working on my contracts.I have a high school diploma and that's it.
But they were working for me.
But from what you say,in a lot of cultures any woman with any degree would not consider marrying me because of my lack of a formal education.
I would have had to settle for one of the insanely beautiful girls I used to date.
Or the insanely beautiful woman I live with.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You're familiar with probability, I assume. What are the odds of a high school graduate being in your place after 20 years, versus a PhD after 10 years income and security wise?

The degrees by themselves aren't important. I've learned two of the three basic skills of my job on my own. But they improve the odds considerably IMHO.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

I would never marry up as a man, women can get away with it. the wife and I both have graduate degrees, she has a Master's in Education and I have an MBA, but I make 4 times what she does. I would never stay in a relationship if my wife, girlfriend made a lot more than me, a little is fine, but if she's making A LOT more than you, she'll lose respect for the man and eventually cheat or divorce him. Studies have proved out that divorce and cheating is highest among marriages where women are the bread-winners, if the Dad is a SAHD it's even worse.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

John, there is a joke in my province that the oil workers with little education make more than the ones with a PHD. The way I said it isn't funny but it's still true. Better even still, no loans and they went right out after highschool meaning more time to save up vs being in university for years. They make a lot more money. Not an ideal job for families but the money is good. Many men went up north, saved it all up and then bought a house cash, cars cash and got a regular job and lived easy with no mortgage or payments with their families. People come from all over our country to do it. 
Many also spent it on living fast too, a lot of them.... 
Others are lifers. Not much of a life but they sure are rich. I know a few. 

One of my brothers got a phd. Was barely worth the loans he has to pay back now. 

Truly it depends where you are. 

Also I have 2 Chinese cousins. They both have good degrees and jobs. They both date down and their partners are well accepted.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> John, there is a joke in my province that the oil workers with little education make more than the ones with a PHD. The way I said it isn't funny but it's still true.


Honestly they perform a job requiring a lot more strength and skill than a lot of jobs educated people have. A lot of "educated" people have BS soft degrees from mid-tier schools where basically they just needed a pulse and 10 years to get their PHD that isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I have an MBA from a 2nd tier school, big whoop, I only got it because it's expected on the resume, if you have 100K and a pulse you can get one too.

Even the Ivy League has dumbed down their admissions process and curriculum to appease social justice warriors and political correctness that an Ivy League degree doesn't mean what it did 20 years ago.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

My father was the type that all that mattered was the title and degree and the prestige that comes with it. 
I got joy out of telling him my "fly by night oil worker" made a lot more. 

I respect the work anyone does but it just doesn't make sense to always encourage the university route for everyone. I will encourage trades before a degree for my own kids due to no loans and faster to get into.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm all too familiar with oil rig guys... But if your daughter is an MD or MBA or what not, how intellectually compatible will she be with her oil guy?

I saw that in my parent's marriage. Mom was the avant garde type, opera, art, the works. Dad was an army grunt. They made about the same but intellectually there was a rather sizable gap, which they addressed by compromising.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

My mom has two Master's degrees, my dad was enlisted in the army and later a fireman in the NYFD and he was significantly more well read and smarter than my mom. In my experience, degrees have nothing to do with someones intelligence, usually it just means they came from an area where going off to college and partying for 4 years on their parents dime while sleep walking through a soft program was an option.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Eh... I've known some super smart and interesting oil folks and some boring, no actual social skills degree folks. It's all about being compatible. If that is a woman with a MBA and a man who's a plumber (who actually make good cash too) then yay them. 

A job doesn't define who a person is. There are all types in all places. 

I'd be happy if my daughter married someone who she cared for and who cared for her. His (or her) job and education don't matter to me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The caring and other personality traits are a given. That's the preseason. Without those he's not even in the ballpark.

Once he's made the cut, how do YOU as a parent determine long term compatibility? What if your daughter is an architect, software engineer, police officer, nurse, or other profession with rough hours? And he husband to be has a cushy bank hour job? 

Do you think you understand what it takes to be a nurse and the toll it takes on the person? Or maybe an architect? Up all night writing code for the next tech startup while your husband expectations are more from his point of view? 

How many marriages work well when she makes 3 or 4 times what he makes, then he's a stay at home dad, and hello TAM. 

The cultural aspect is stupid, granted, but do you need culture to raise red flags? Here's today's lovely couple... The Mrs is a BSEE and my former intern and team member. Hard worker, and a bit unpolished if I may say. The Mr. is a divorced/no kids guy with a high school diploma and zero interest in anything but his hobby. It's her hobby too, lots of fun but few people make it. The hobby matched their online profiles during dating, and despite being marginally employed he proposed after 3 months dating and she accepted. They bought a house (he got a sizable downpayment as a gift from his parents) and moved in. 

Now he's studying to become one of those soft science types. She's footing the bills. Alas, he's not academic material. Far from it. He's doing ok taking a very light course load but she'll be paying for the next 5-6 years, and then maybe he can go to grad school and become a social worker or some such.

So, 6-7 years of that. Minimum. How many parents of young professional women would agree to the above?

Discuss.

(Hey, like my college teaching days )


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think modern society is too complex to easily define "up" and "down". Social status is no longer a ladder but a complex web. 

Sports, science, politics, management, music etc etc. There are a wide variety of directions that people can advance.

So I see it more as an issue of compatibility than of marrying up of down. I would not want to be married to a woman who didn't share enough interests and knowledge for us to enjoy talking.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I'm a prime example of having married up into millions of dollars with my RSXW!

Oh, there was lots of money and a great deal of perceived opulence, but sadly there was not even the slightest assurance of love! As a result, I was later relegated out of it into near destitution and into sheer hell!

I simply cannot trust those that seemingly place their very own wealth and their penchant for money, far more than anyone that they could ever try to come to love!

Needless to say, it was a most painful and sobering lesson for yours truly!

*


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> The caring and other personality traits are a given. That's the preseason. Without those he's not even in the ballpark.
> 
> Once he's made the cut, how do YOU as a parent determine long term compatibility? What if your daughter is an architect, software engineer, police officer, nurse, or other profession with rough hours? And he husband to be has a cushy bank hour job?
> 
> ...


So, when exactly does this parental consultation on partners take place?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

anonmd said:


> So, when exactly does this parental consultation on partners take place?


After I download my surveillance drone data following the carefully observed first date


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I have significantly more education than my husband, and make a lot more money. And I never have and never will cheat on him. 

IME, most men will shy away from dating or marrying "up", and one compelling trait that my husband had was that this wasn't even a slight issue for him. As others have said above, compatibility is way more important than degrees or earnings.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> After I download my surveillance drone data following the carefully observed first date


OK then, while you and your wife are discussing her issues with the counselor you might want to spend a session or two on this issue <g>. 

Personally I think potential partners have many attributes which may or may not be directly related to whatever sheepskin they happen to hold. The question is more how compatible the two are overall. 

There are plenty of men (since we are talking about your daughter - I assume it is men she is interested in ) who can be intellectually compatible regardless of whether of not they have a college degree or an advanced degree. You do realize that not all non-college goers are mental midget neanderthals? Give whoever walks through the door a chance before you assume the worst. I'd guess if your daughter likes him there might be a reason other than his terrific boning skills >

My standard would be is he a good guy and does he have a work ethic. The guy that would stop working to do the degree on the back of your daughter sounds like not such a good catch. I find the whole concept of stay at home dad a bit of a red flag if that is his goal from the start, might turn out to be the best choice for a limited period of time but if that's his goal? Anyway...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I have significantly more education than my husband, and make a lot more money. And I never have and never will cheat on him.
> 
> IME, most men will shy away from dating or marrying "up", and one compelling trait that my husband had was that this wasn't even a slight issue for him. As others have said above, compatibility is way more important than degrees or earnings.


The discussion is more about the "screening" process, especially from the parents viewpoint. If you don't know a thing about the guy, that is.

Ten years into a relationship, sure. But ten weeks?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I have no say in who my kids marry and my parents trying to put their wants and needs on me (he doesn't make enough money, he doesn't have a good enough job) just pushed me away from them. 

I will be 100% supportive of who they choose


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

john117 said:


> This started as a sidebar in another thread and it really needs its own... What do y'all think about cultures where the woman is expected to marry up (or at least equal) but it's ok for the man to marry down (lolz).


Well, if those are the rules, then they're at least balanced! If one person marries up, then the other is marrying down!



john117 said:


> Obviously we're talking overseas cultures. This came to be because of two such marriages in wife's family - one a catastrophic failure and the other very likely in a few years.


Why would it obviously be about overseas cultures? It gets discussed here on TAM regularly from folks in the USA and Europe and elsewhere.



john117 said:


> The first is an MD lady married to a 4 year degree self employed guy making a lot less. Bad ending. The second, 4 year engineering degree girl gets married to a highschool diploma guy working the family business (building materials manufacturing but not very wealthy).


IMO, it can be a problem, but only if one or both of the parties in the marriage is overly sensitive to social status. That's a downer in any relationship...if you care about social status, and you're of equal status in marriage, good - for you. But it makes it difficult to retain good healthy social circles, because a good healthy social circle will include people of many social strata.



john117 said:


> My own girls will likely have to figure this out in America, one a PhD in a few years and the other an MD in a few years. As a parent I can see the fallacy of "marrying down" but also have first hand experience of "marrying equal" LOLZ.


If you make a big deal out of it, then it will be a possible trouble spot that it would not be if you just tell them to treat all people as equals.



john117 said:


> Other foreign cultures are like that, too. I know lots of Indian or Chinese PhDs and anecdotal evidence seems to suggest some selection bias to say the least. But that's just my circle.
> 
> What's the common wisdom of a more equitable () culture where everything goes? Or does it?


Of my LTRs...
- in college, the women I had LTRs with came from both higher and lower social status families and we didn't notice.
- After college, I dated a bit below - I have several degrees including one doctoral level, so mostly I dated women with one degree or just high school diploma. No troubles.
- I had an LTR with a woman whose degree complement was similar to mine, although she was raised in a family of lower economic status. The relationship from hell. She was competitive to the bitter end - as I think are many people who care about social status
- I had a wonderful LTR with a woman who never got to college, but through perseverance and good instincts, managed to become the Chief Operating Officer for one of the largest phone companies in the US, salaried at nearly $1 million. Only reason it ended is that during a downsizing period, she realized she had to lay herself off, and took her millions, moved to Arizona and began a winery...not something I wanted to do quite yet!
- I've been married 17 years to a woman whose family economic status was the same as mine, but dysfunctionalities within it prevented any of the offspring from doing much and they're all negative inward people. It's not going well, and I'm on the way to dissolving it

It's always the same thing. Mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Thankfully the guy in the example is not dating my daughter  but a young lady I've known for years. Not to mention that he's letting a lot of his mental state issues trickle out AFTER he proposed (depression mostly).

The idea you can assess compatibility after a few months of dating is a bit optimistic. Every disastrous marriage I know had GREAT compatibility at first.

I'm not saying that one only ought to date PhDs - after all that worked great for me LOLZ - but at what point between rationality and passion do you draw the line?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

john117 said:


> Other foreign cultures are like that, too. I know lots of Indian or Chinese PhDs and anecdotal evidence seems to suggest some selection bias to say the least. But that's just my circle.


Financially I married way up without realizing it. She came from a very modest family and had worked for many years with a salary of around 50K. However, she had invested since the 1990's living in her city in Asia and already has somewhere north of a million USD. We keep our finances separate. In the beginning she could guess that I would not have nearly the funds that she and her circle of friends have. They are also all into finance. She acknowledged that this was a serious concern of hers while we were dating. I did not know that she is wealthy until after being married. 

What she grew to like about me is that I take time to enjoy life and use my creative talents in ways other than how to make more money. I am much different than the men she knew from her life in the financial world.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Marrying down financially for anyone is a risky proposition with the current divorce laws.

I married down. At the time of the divorce, my XWW's income was about 1/10th what mine was. The difference was not always that great but the gap widened over the years because I had far more earning potential and she became lazy and would rather spend it. She never contributed financially to our household yet she got 1/2 half of everything. All she had to do was screw POSOM to get it. 

My advice to anyone who will listen, if you are brave enough to marry, is chose someone with a very similar income and earning potential and then make sure you accumulate everything you want Before you get married. Do not co-mingle these assets after you marry.


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## Robbie1234 (Feb 8, 2017)

The


Andy1001 said:


> That will teach you to threadjack jld's thread John.lol.
> I still stand by what I said about education.If you are making a lot of money why go back for more degrees,masters even the glories of a PhD don't really register if you have no real use for it.You know what is said about an economist with a PhD?
> When I still ran my own installation business I had design engineers,architects,lawyers,civil engineers and dozens of lesser educated mortals such as electricians and machine operators etc all working on my contracts.I have a high school diploma and that's it.
> But they were working for me.
> ...


You are not comparing like for like Andy,you had a big advantage over other people which I don't want to bring up but you would have sailed through any masters programs you wanted to take.Most other people have to study for years to pass these examinations that you took.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

john117 said:


> The discussion is more about the "screening" process, especially from the parents viewpoint. If you don't know a thing about the guy, that is.
> 
> Ten years into a relationship, sure. But ten weeks?


You screen your daughters dates? LOL. If my parents tried that with me, I would've dated people just to spite them. Or at least pretended to.

Personally, I wouldn't decide anything after 10 weeks. Don't care how many degrees, how much money, how good someone looks on paper. Actually, some of the biggest *******s I've ever known look really good on paper. 

Time is a much better indicator than any of the wealth and/or status demographics, if you ask me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Time is a lot more valuable than one thinks. I had plenty of time, lived together for 3 years before marriage. 

The most critical part of the screening - cute term - IMHO is family of origin. Not in terms of money but in terms of family of origin skeletons, home culture, etc. Had I met my in-laws or understood the culture as well as I do now before marriage I would have escaped the next day.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

With screening, I think most situations that end up bad had red flags from the start that we just looked past, thought would get better or thought we could live with. 

With the marrying up or down thing, my son is a math whiz. He has many good options for careers and let's say he gets a good one and is rich, any woman who cared about "marrying up" when they met would be a huge red flag. 

Likely attraction will die and disrespect/sexlessness/divorce/affairs are all more likely to happen after that. 

I care far more for job enjoyment. If he likes his job and has some passion, I love it. I don't care what that job is or makes but that light in their eyes when they explain their work, the wins they get cause they are good at it, they are less stressed. 
I would encourage and be financially supportive of my man to find his passion and what he enjoys doing. 

I hope the same for my kids.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Financially supportive... Originally I wanted to study photography, which my country did not offer as a degree. I was passionate from day one and am very good at it. I should have looked for someone financially supportive then . Maybe music. Then I went thru my car design phase, then model airplanes.... 

It doesn't work this way, I'm afraid. I do have a few professional musician friends and none of are remotely set. I like passion, don't get me wrong, but passion is for car designers and such.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

That depends on your life needs. Can you be happy with 50,000 a year income, small home, clipping coupons? If you had a job you loved and a wife who supported and loved you? Would you trade what you have now for that? 

For me, life passion, experiences and low stress is 100x more important than a big house with stuff. 

It was a no brainer for me. 

My Dad needed the big house and stuff. He got laid off and complains about his bills and the stress. We have all suggested they move to a small apartment or condo, the looks we got were like we suggested he become a prostitute. 

So priorities matter.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> - I've been married 17 years to a woman whose family economic status was the same as mine, but dysfunctionalities within it prevented any of the offspring from doing much and they're all negative inward people. It's not going well, and I'm on the way to dissolving it
> 
> It's always the same thing. Mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.


Interesting observation. I feel that's what happened to my family. In the small midwestern town I grew up in, my grandfather was a minister and then my father returned after university to start his medical practice. For a long time it seemed, we were one of the few black middle class in the city. 

These days, who's successful in my family? My sister is a sometime pediatrician. My ex husband joked that my brother was an unemployed dentist. I certainly didn't climb the heights of corporate America. And another sister works cabin crew, nearly 50 wants to be married but hasn't......

I read quite often how successful people claim that they were told by their parents that they can be whatever they wanted to be. I found my parents telling me, no, that's not for you either because they thought our race (black American) would hold use back or just plain that our mother thought we couldn't cut it.

Just wondering how often that happens.......


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I would never marry someone who isn't smart and doesn't like to read. 

M2 had an undergraduate degree and a two year degree from a specialized nursing program. But - her fondness for reading and her excellent facility with language were big factors. 





john117 said:


> I'm all too familiar with oil rig guys... But if your daughter is an MD or MBA or what not, how intellectually compatible will she be with her oil guy?
> 
> I saw that in my parent's marriage. Mom was the avant garde type, opera, art, the works. Dad was an army grunt. They made about the same but intellectually there was a rather sizable gap, which they addressed by compromising.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Time is a lot more valuable than one thinks. I had plenty of time, lived together for 3 years before marriage.
> 
> The most critical part of the screening - cute term - IMHO is family of origin. Not in terms of money but in terms of family of origin skeletons, home culture, etc. Had I met my in-laws or understood the culture as well as I do now before marriage I would have escaped the next day.


Now you've got me worried.My girlfriends mother is a nut job.She hasn't spoken to either of us since thanksgiving and we had a baby in march that she has never laid eyes on.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

There is no perfect compatibility or incompatibility test. Some people get along because they are similar. Some get along because of their contrasts. Some people who are different clash. Some complement each other. Some people marry that hot guy or gal for the great sex and years later realize they are not compatible in raising kids or maintaining a household. Some people marry the reliable compatible partner and years later have a dead bedroom. If you think you have a 1 or 2 or 5 question test that reliably matches people, go into business and compete with Eharmony. There is tons of money to be made and everyone would like a shorter set of questions.

My short and sweet advice would be to look hard for the red flags, because there always are some, and talk openly about how you are going to handle conflict over those issues. Don't ignore the red flags because so many other things are good, or because "love conquers all" (here at TAM we all know it doesn't), or because it might cause you to break up. Breaking up before you get married because you couldn't resolve the issues raised by the red flags is a GOOD thing. Better than marrying and breaking up later after much heartache and entanglement.

There is a huge difference between "I noticed ___ about my fiance, and it bothers me, but I don't think it will be a big deal" and "true, we are very different as relates to ____, but no, it doesn't bother me". If it bothers you before marriage, there is a decent chance it will bother you more and more over time.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> That depends on your life needs. Can you be happy with 50,000 a year income, small home, clipping coupons? If you had a job you loved and a wife who supported and loved you? Would you trade what you have now for that?
> 
> For me, life passion, experiences and low stress is 100x more important than a big house with stuff.
> 
> ...


Also, location and money management matters. In many parts of the US Midwest, 50K per year can give you a comfortable life with a nice house. It wasn't too many years ago that I was making 50K and I had paid off my 15-year loan (in six years) of a newly built home with a two-car garage. I also travel often for enjoyment. Of course, this was possible because I didn't have any children or debt and I don't buy expensive clothes. Like you, I also place a high value on low stress.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> Now you've got me worried.My girlfriends mother is a nut job.She hasn't spoken to either of us since thanksgiving and we had a baby in march that she has never laid eyes on.


You should be worried, women turn into their mothers. Men turn into their fathers.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Andy1001 said:


> Now you've got me worried.My girlfriends mother is a nut job.She hasn't spoken to either of us since thanksgiving and we had a baby in march that she has never laid eyes on.


It might be good that your gf has distanced herself from her mother.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Perhaps it can all be compressed to:

- Compatibility 
- Character
- Sanity





wild jade said:


> I have significantly more education than my husband, and make a lot more money. And I never have and never will cheat on him.
> 
> IME, most men will shy away from dating or marrying "up", and one compelling trait that my husband had was that this wasn't even a slight issue for him. As others have said above, compatibility is way more important than degrees or earnings.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> > Now you've got me worried.My girlfriends mother is a nut job.She hasn't spoken to either of us since thanksgiving and we had a baby in march that she has never laid eyes on.
> ...


They don't have to. I'm nothing like my mother, or my father for that matter. They have been happily married for over 50 years, I see them on a monthly basis. They both have some pretty undesirable flaws that I do not have. I'm nothing like my mother.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> They don't have to. I'm nothing like my mother, or my father for that matter. They have been happily married for over 50 years, I see them on a monthly basis. They both have some pretty undesirable flaws that I do not have. I'm nothing like my mother.


My girlfriends mother is mean,manipulative,a liar,homophobic,and a money grabber.
None of these can be used to describe my girlfriend.
Thankfully!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I don't think education is necessarily a marker of a person's future sucess.

A person may have a PhD but stay in a fairly moderate job, a degree holder could become a CEO. The questions requires a far more complex analysis


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

knobcreek said:


> I would never marry up as a man, women can get away with it. the wife and I both have graduate degrees, she has a Master's in Education and I have an MBA, but I make 4 times what she does. I would never stay in a relationship if my wife, girlfriend made a lot more than me, a little is fine, but if she's making A LOT more than you, she'll lose respect for the man and eventually cheat or divorce him. Studies have proved out that divorce and cheating is highest among marriages where women are the bread-winners, if the Dad is a SAHD it's even worse.


I have read articles about this, hmmm.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> My girlfriends mother is mean,manipulative,a liar,homophobic,and a money grabber.
> None of these can be used to describe my girlfriend.
> Thankfully!


Yet.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

It's not an ironclad rule and it takes decades to become obvious. Also, just because one does not feel they are like there mother does not mean it is not true . External observation can be required...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

One doesn't become their mother in a biological or psychological sense. It's just that one's influences may lay dormant for decades then poof!


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> One doesn't become their mother in a biological or psychological sense. It's just that one's influences may lay dormant for decades then poof!


Of all the negative attributes my girlfriends mother has her overriding problem is her homophobia and her need for money.My best friend is a gay women and she has also become very close to my girlfriend,my girlfriends mother has insulted her to her face and also behind her back.
She is desperate to keep up the appearance of a wealthy woman when in reality she hasn't a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.If I try to give my girlfriend money she gets mad and bear in mind she had our baby four months ago.
We are going to Holland tomorrow to meet up with my brother and sil and their son and his wife who live in Amsterdam.The girls want to see U2 on Saturday and I got tickets for them.My gf insisted on paying for hers.
I hope in this case the apple can fall far from the tree.


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## Robbie1234 (Feb 8, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> Of all the negative attributes my girlfriends mother has her overriding problem is her homophobia and her need for money.My best friend is a gay women and she has also become very close to my girlfriend,my girlfriends mother has insulted her to her face and also behind her back.
> She is desperate to keep up the appearance of a wealthy woman when in reality she hasn't a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.If I try to give my girlfriend money she gets mad and bear in mind she had our baby four months ago.
> We are going to Holland tomorrow to meet up with my brother and sil and their son and his wife who live in Amsterdam.The girls want to see U2 on Saturday and I got tickets for them.My gf insisted on paying for hers.
> I hope in this case the apple can fall far from the tree.


So if the girls are going to see U2 what will the boys be doing on Saturday night in Amsterdam.Or are you babysitting lol. Changed times Andy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Here's the thing. A messed up parent won't make the partner an ax murderer any time soon. If nothing else, it will make them behave opposite for a while to prove themselves. But decades later things COULD go wrong in a hurry:

case in point: wife's two other siblings both MD educated overseas, while father only paid for most of her undergraduate. There were many reasons behind this, but the primary one was favoritism and future planning. An MD has the potential of earning lots and supporting the family upon return while a math major... Well... 

I was looking at financials a while ago as we were ready to start paying med school tuition  and she goes on a tangent railing about how one of our kids "got more money than the other", therefore her father was right, blah, blah. Major blow up.

Without knowing the family's story and issues you simply won't know what's going on. It's this kind of crap we need to address in therapy but at 58 I don't see much hope. 

Ironically my late brother got the better deal between us by far, and it never bothered me.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Robbie1234 said:


> So if the girls are going to see U2 what will the boys be doing on Saturday night in Amsterdam.Or are you babysitting lol. Changed times Andy.


To be honest I would rather watch paint dry than listen to that pontificating ******* Bono.I will babysit no problem.On Sunday the "boys" fly to Hungary for the formula 1 Grand Prix.Quid pro quo.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Bono and U2 in general are pretty good. I don't care about their political side. This fall they're touring the USA and we're going!!


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Bono and U2 in general are pretty good. I don't care about their political side. This fall they're touring the USA and we're going!!


What gets up my nose about them is they play the Irish card so often.How many times has Bono introduced "Bad" by telling the audience that they are an Irish band from Dublin.But for tax reasons they are (or were)based in Holland.
There is quite a difference between a shamrock and a tulip.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

john117 said:


> The first is an MD lady married to a 4 year degree self employed guy making a lot less. Bad ending. The second, 4 year engineering degree girl gets married to a highschool diploma guy working the family business (building materials manufacturing but not very wealthy).


I'm going to guess that the marriages failed or are failing because the women's parents are too involved and probably constantly talking **** about the husbands and how the daughters could've done better.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

soccermom2three said:


> I'm going to guess that the marriages failed or are failing because the women's parents are too involved and probably constantly talking **** about the husbands and how the daughters could've done better.


This thread was originally about educational qualifications and how couples with different levels could interact.In my honest opinion you can have as many letters after your name as you want but I measure success on income and job satisfaction.
In my case my girlfriends mother thought I was the greatest guy in the world until it was made clear that I wasn't going to subsidise her lifestyle.Then I became the devil incarnate in her opinion.


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## Robbie1234 (Feb 8, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> To be honest I would rather watch paint dry than listen to that pontificating ******* Bono.I will babysit no problem.On Sunday the "boys" fly to Hungary for the formula 1 Grand Prix.Quid pro quo.


Hey! That's an Irish band you are slagging.lol.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> I'm going to guess that the marriages failed or are failing because the women's parents are too involved and probably constantly talking **** about the husbands and how the daughters could've done better.


Some of that happened, but there was adultery from both sides too, not to mention economic reasons. They kept money strictly separate, which hindered the guy's ability to launch a successful business, resentment flared...


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> soccermom2three said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to guess that the marriages failed or are failing because the women's parents are too involved and probably constantly talking **** about the husbands and how the daughters could've done better.
> ...


This is a mirror image of my predicament. My gf had a health studio that went bust due mainly to her giving thousands of dollars to her mother and letting so called friends use it free of charge.We had broken off our engagement but I hated the thought of her being bankrupt so I bought it and paid her a little extra just to have something to fall back on. I hired a brilliant manager,a former Olympian and the place is doing great. He has left but agreed to oversee the running of the place from his home state until I get a manager. I have gotten back together with my gf and I asked her to run it for me to no avail. I have offered it to her completely free of charge but she won't accept it. She also returned every cent over the valuation of the business. 
Sometimes the apple does fall a long way from the tree.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

But it's still an apple. My wife and her mother were nothing alike at first. 25 years later, different story.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> But it's still an apple. My wife and her mother were nothing alike at first. 25 years later, different story.


You are determined to depress me John lol.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> You are determined to depress me John lol.


I'm 57. That's depressing enough


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> I'm 57. That's depressing enough


Not if you consider the alternative to being old.😳


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I was looking at financials a while ago as we were ready to start paying med school tuition and she goes on a tangent railing about how one of our kids "got more money than the other", therefore her father was right, blah, blah. Major blow up."

This is an easy fix. To assuage your wife's sense of fair play, you can gift the short-shrifted daughter a down payment on a house or such. No need for a blow up. How's the marriage counseling coming along?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> "I was looking at financials a while ago as we were ready to start paying med school tuition and she goes on a tangent railing about how one of our kids "got more money than the other", therefore her father was right, blah, blah. Major blow up."
> 
> This is an easy fix. To assuage your wife's sense of fair play, you can gift the short-shrifted daughter a down payment on a house or such. No need for a blow up. How's the marriage counseling coming along?


Neither girl cares about a house or about actual amounts. IMHO it's all about opportunity. They both took advantage of what was offered and never screwed up. Whether one will cost $200k vs the other at $180k is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things...

Counseling coming along - nothing major that we haven't already known in our joint sessions, no idea how she's doing in her IC sessions. The usual in mine (um, you're stubborn and have ADHD but other than that, you're normal kind of sessions).


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It isn't irrelevant to your wife or she wouldn't have blown a gasket. And, you do seem to favor your younger daughter a little bit. See where this is going? Even if neither of the girls cares at this point, it is important to your wife that she and you not appear to show favoritism. Just look at the case at hand - do you want your daughters drumming up resentment in the future?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> It isn't irrelevant to your wife or she wouldn't have blown a gasket. And, you do seem to favor your younger daughter a little bit. See where this is going? Even if neither of the girls cares at this point, it is important to your wife that she and you not appear to show favoritism. Just look at the case at hand - do you want your daughters drumming up resentment in the future?


Actually the older has gotten much more attention growing up. The younger isn't the 24/7 contact type. Money wise it's a toss for now subject to where older girl goes for PhD. 

I'm rooting for NC State University , Clemson, or Georgia Tech personally...


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> Interesting observation. I feel that's what happened to my family. In the small midwestern town I grew up in, my grandfather was a minister and then my father returned after university to start his medical practice. For a long time it seemed, we were one of the few black middle class in the city.
> 
> These days, who's successful in my family? My sister is a sometime pediatrician. My ex husband joked that my brother was an unemployed dentist. I certainly didn't climb the heights of corporate America. And another sister works cabin crew, nearly 50 wants to be married but hasn't......
> 
> ...


One of the requirements of becoming an adult is that we completely cast off all the things we were told as children, and replace those things with things we tell ourselves, as we conclude what will help us with our own success.

Sadly, Western society does not want us to do this, because it runs contrary to the desire to control the population.

DD


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## Leonor (Jun 5, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> This is a mirror image of my predicament. My gf had a health studio that went bust due mainly to her giving thousands of dollars to her mother and letting so called friends use it free of charge.We had broken off our engagement but I hated the thought of her being bankrupt so I bought it and paid her a little extra just to have something to fall back on. I hired a brilliant manager,a former Olympian and the place is doing great. He has left but agreed to oversee the running of the place from his home state until I get a manager. I have gotten back together with my gf and I asked her to run it for me to no avail. I have offered it to her completely free of charge but she won't accept it. She also returned every cent over the valuation of the business.
> Sometimes the apple does fall a long way from the tree.


I remember your story. You got really lucky with her. She's a keeper.


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## Robbie1234 (Feb 8, 2017)

Leonor said:


> I remember your story. You got really lucky with her. She's a keeper.


It's clear that he loves her,it's great to see.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

My husband has a Ph.D., he didn't leave uni till about 26. I had no interest in uni at all, I left school after my A levels at 18(I am British) worked full time, married my first husband at 19, bought our own place at age 20, had my first child at 21. 
He is very clever in the sciences and maths, but I am ahead of him in English, reading, and the humanities. I nearly always beat him at scrabble and other word games. He admits that I have far more common sense than him and I have been through far more of life's problems than he has which has taught me such a lot. He also has a terrible memory for things like birthdays and names, cash point pins etc, yet I know all of our families birthdays in my head(about 15 people). So qualifications are not the be all and end all. There are many intelligent people who dont go to uni. 

My son left school at 18, worked full time and worked his way up in IT. After18 years full time in IT, he earns just as much as his wife who has 2 degrees. Intelligence-wise they are very similar. In my experience degrees and Ph.D.'s are no guarantee of anything, and it certainly makes no difference to our marriage or my sons and his wife. 
One of my children went to uni and the other 2 didn't, and they are all just as clever as each other and all have good secure jobs. 
Some very clever people honestly haven't a clue about life.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most people who pursue the doctorate do it for the love of what they do, not money. Unless you want to teach. 

Plus it's a great escape from reality, especially if you have full funding


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Three of the guys I have recently worked with had their wives leave them. One of the first questions I ask is about their job situation. All three had the timeline that went like this: 

1. Both of them work, but he makes more. All is good.
2. She gets a new job or promotion. This is preceded by training/classes that he helps pay for, or he picks up the slack at home while goes to class to get a degree.
3. She eventually makes more than him and his job is stagnant.
4. She becomes distant and moves on to something/somebody else.

Coincidence? Possibly. Is it due to a difference in the man's behavior after his wife makes more? Blow to his ego? Does he become a pouty baby? Is she introduced to a whole new world of high-dollar men and women and now hubby looks bad in comparison? Or does she just simply lose respect because she is that shallow? 

Probably a little of all of the above.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

dadstartingover said:


> Three of the guys I have recently worked with had their wives leave them. One of the first questions I ask is about their job situation. All three had the timeline that went like this:
> 
> 1. Both of them work, but he makes more. All is good.
> 2. She gets a new job or promotion. This is preceded by training/classes that he helps pay for, or he picks up the slack at home while goes to class to get a degree.
> ...


What I have noticed over the years is that when someone gets a promotion or a big raise or even a newer better job their confidence increases.Now to me there is nothing more attractive in a woman than confidence in herself and her ability,they seem to say I can look after myself and I don't need any man to do it for me.
She may then attract better looking men than she did before or maybe as you surmised her husband feels threatened and sulks making himself look less attractive to her.Either way a high percentage of men feel insecure if their wives earn more than them and if she is as you say,shallow then she will lose respect for him.
If you truly love someone shouldn't you want them to succeed beyond their wildest dreams.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's not respect only. It's tangible things and extra conflicts. When my wife got a large pay raise last job change she decided to "keep it" all in her 401k without concern to the rest of the family finances. Which wouldn't be an issue except we're now paying for medical school. Ouches galore. 

Or, she could have decided to upgrade her rarely used SUV to an X5. More ouches. 

Many women - not all, but many, especially foreign born in my experience - seem to have a "your money is our money but my money is my money" attitude towards shared finances.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Steve1000 said:


> Also, location and money management matters. In many parts of the US Midwest, 50K per year can give you a comfortable life with a nice house. It wasn't too many years ago that I was making 50K and I had paid off my 15-year loan (in six years) of a newly built home with a two-car garage. I also travel often for enjoyment. Of course, this was possible because I didn't have any children or debt and I don't buy expensive clothes. Like you, I also place a high value on low stress.


I appreciate this post... in our area.. if a family makes over $50,000 - they are doing better than most... we paid off our house & land when he made even less than this...we had kids too... There is enough stress in life.. I'd much rather not live "1st class" but have more time for family... and have some money saved.. in case we need it.. 

I didn't marry up.. we came from similar working class blue collar families....it's surely part of our compatibility and view on work ethic ...

I would worry someone who came from money would look down on people like us...think our lifestyle wasn't good enough ....if I had any hint that others felt this way.. I wouldn't want anything to do with them.. this would deeply offend me..


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think most (but not all) people with money realize that there is always someone with far more money. No point looking down when its so easy for others to look down on you.

There are people with less money than you can imagine and people with more than you can imagine. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> I would worry someone who came from money would look down on people like us...think our lifestyle wasn't good enough ....if I had any hint that others felt this way.. I wouldn't want anything to do with them.. this would deeply offend me..


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I appreciate this post... in our area.. if a family makes over $50,000 - they are doing better than most... we paid off our house & land when he made even less than this...we had kids too... There is enough stress in life.. I'd much rather not live "1st class" but have more time for family... and have some money saved.. in case we need it..
> 
> I didn't marry up.. we came from similar working class blue collar families....it's surely part of our compatibility and view on work ethic ...
> 
> I would worry someone who came from money would look down on people like us...think our lifestyle wasn't good enough ....if I had any hint that others felt this way.. I wouldn't want anything to do with them.. this would deeply offend me..


If you ever meet some really wealthy people you will find they have as many problems as everyone else.
Some of the wealthiest people around are the tech geeks and some of these guys make billions.One of their problems is that growing up they weren't the type of guys who attracted cheerleaders or other hot girls but now they have supermodels throwing themselves at them.They are well aware that it is their money that is the attraction and some of them are paranoid about gold diggers.If they marry they constantly wonder is their wife cheating even though there may be a prenup in place.
Another worry for them is what people (like you,lol) think about them.They may give lots of cash to charity anonymously but are accused of being mean.If they give cash publicly then they are accused of seeking attention.
Another problem they have is their children.If,as in my case you have a child who inherits a lot of money when they reach adulthood there is always the worry of some smooth operator talking her into spending it on him or even marrying at a young age.
You have said before that you would be afraid wealthy people would look down on you but in actual fact it may be that you look at their money and think these people are snotty *******s and refuse to interact with them.If I am walking in the local park or woods with my daughter in her buggy during the day I probably give the impression of someone who is unemployed or a sahd and I couldn't care less what people think.But I am always talking to people and nobody refuses to speak to me because they think I'm poor.Maybe if they knew where I lived or what I did for a living their opinion would change but that's a reflection on them not me.


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