# How to defuse a bitter argument?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

While this is not directly a sex issue, I am posting here because I feel it is the #1 thing that disrupts a healthy sex life in a marriage. And this is where I usually post so people in this forum are most likely to know me. 

Normally I am good at keeping my shît together these days and avoiding temper tantrums when my wife needs her space and she pushes me away. This past week I completely lost it and went into full out temper tantrum mode and shut down over my wife refusing to just give me a hug (not sex, just a hug!). 

Now I am not perfect and I was hurting to a point I let my mood get the best of me and became bitter. I never yelled (even though my wife accuses me of yelling), but told my wife I needed a hug to help me calm down. She said that I can NOT force her to give me a hug, and I insisted that as her husband that I should be able to ask for a hug when I am hurting and really need one. ...three days of this go buy... She finally gives me a hug but makes it a point to tell me, "I do not feel anything with this hug and it means nothing to me!" Well obviously that made me feel worse than nothing and I _completely_ lost it, and told her to get away from me and leave me alone (this time yelling). 

I obviously need a reality check here, but I honestly feel like if you are hurting and you and your partner are angry with one another, that asking for a hug is the equivalent of holding up a white flag and requesting a cease fire. My wife seems to insist that asking for a hug when we are angry is NOT OK and that the only thing I can do is calm myself down and just wait however many days is needed until she feels like she can finally give me a hug. She admits she is NOT a huggy person and has never liked hugs. Perhaps she does not like seeing me weak and needy, I don't know... When our argument first started she said she did not want to hug me because I seemed too angry.

Is it seriously NOT OK to ask for a hug when you are hurting emotionally and "admit" you need some help to calm down and feel better?

Badsanta


***** *An update to this thread 09-15-2016* *****

Thanks for everyone's feedback on this thread as I realize that the idea of insisting on a hug to defuse an argument is problematic at best. I even got an official opinion from a therapist on this one and was given the following advice:



> *Forced hugs never tend to work that well. A much better way would be to say, "I'm ready for a hug when you are" within the context of conveying that you wish to use that to try and help deescalate the argument.*


I tried that today and it WORKED! But not without my wife first saying, "OK, you and your hugs!" 

Badsanta


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Is it seriously NOT OK to ask for a hug when you are hurting emotionally and "admit" you need some help to calm down and feel better?


I think this is a great topic to put out there and applaud your willingness to be honest about how you felt in this situation.

My personal belief after experiencing the same thing many times is that if you base your emotional stability on what your spouse is willing to do for you, you have no emotional stability.

You need to recognize something within yourself that provides the same comfort and reassurance. It is there, you just need to find it. 

With practice, you can locate this at any time and it will always be there, regardless of what she does or does not do.

When you always have sight of this within yourself, she can do whatever she wants and it will not matter.

You will not have bitter arguments with her because she cannot do anything to you.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Hugs or any kind of affectionate behaviour can definitely calm down an agruement. 

My husband often gives me loads of affection when I'm sad or angry & I do for him also. We are extremely affectionate. 

I don't know, your wife IMO kind of uses things (agruement/agendas) to avoid intimacy with you, to frustrate you, so you'll leave HER alone. 

I also think she gets a little pleasure out of annoying you! 
Like when she's supposed to be doing a massage but tortures you by pulling at your back hair! 

I think a therapist would say for you NOT to react to her behaviour & then she has no power to play with. 

If she wasn't given affection as a child she likely doesn't understand why it's necessary during or after an fight. 

It's not about being a man or manly, all mammals on this planet need a form of affectionate behaviour. 
My cat won't leave me until I rub his belly to his satisfaction! 

You just need to find out what she believes is affection in her mind & then compromise from there. 





Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MrsAldi said:


> I don't know, your wife IMO kind of uses things (agruement/agendas) to avoid intimacy with you, to frustrate you, so you'll leave HER alone.


this is a great point.

if you view these situations as a set up (at least initially), it can help you avoid walking into the "trap"

so next time you ask your wife for a hug and she says "no," realize that on some level she is expecting you to flip out, so you just do a little spin move and smile and say "OK"

you then will have (1) avoided the trap, (2) demonstrated to yourself that you don't really need this and (3) demonstrated to her that you are bulletproof

win win win


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Sorry, but your wife is correct and you are wrong. You are not entitled to hugs from her just because she married you. She is not your emotional rescue inhaler. It would be nice if she wanted to hug you to provide support when you are feeling down, stressed, etc. But you are not entitled to that, and you are not justified to pout if she refuses your request for affection.

As Anon said, you need to find peace within yourself. And as UMP says, the "game" of attracting your wife never ends. So if you want hugs, then be attractive in your wife's eyes. Which probably does not include being emotionally needs or so weak that you will crumble if your wife refuses to give you a hug.

On the other hand, if she typically refuses to provide support when you need it, and receiving affection when you feel down is very important to you, then you might want to find another woman who is more amendable to providing affection. However, as you know, there are substantial frictions / transactions costs to getting from married to BS2 to dating / married to another woman. And that other more affectionate woman is likely to annoy you in ways that BS2 does not. So think long and hard before jumping out of the frying pan to assess whether you are jumping into the fire.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I sort of jumped to conclusions on this one and backed off. I know the other posters know you better than I do.

But I'll give you my initial gut reaction:

You can't pout your way to a hug. It kind of disturbed me too that by your own admissions you throw a temper tantrum and pout for what you need and then are able to sort of step back and analyze it unemotionally.

Just saying. . .I don't know the backstory here.

But yeah, you can't pout your way to a hug, sex, whatever. And what makes me think also that no amount of affection would quell that anger inside, that no amount of affection could act as a salve for whatever your issues are?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Badsanta, have you ever thought about just divorcing and seeking a woman who can fairly effortlessly meet those needs in you?

Some women are okay being needed for a hug and don't need it from the guy back, some women are okay with being needed for a hug and sometimes needing a hug from the guy, and some women are really distressed by the idea the guy needs anything from them at all. 

If your wife is in the third category, this relationship is always going to be frustrating for both of you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> My personal belief after experiencing the same thing many times is that if you base your emotional stability on what your spouse is willing to do for you, you have no emotional stability.


This. And when you ask, recognize that you can get no for an answer. Otherwise you are expecting which is a form of control. When you cede that attempt at control, it is much more likely that a request will be met with kindness.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Scannerguard said:


> But yeah, you can't pout your way to a hug, sex, whatever.


Well, you can get a hug that way, but from your mom. If your wife feels like your mom, she is unlikely to want to have sex with you, kwim?

But there are women out there who are pleased to hug men when they need it. It serves a need in those women.

The trick is matching up men who need that in women with women who want/need to give it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jld said:


> Well, you can get a hug that way, but from your mom.


I'm glad you said the "mom" thing because I was about to say you've got to cut your own umbilical cord.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I guess my answer doesn't answer the title question. I just wanted to say, when I am unhappy with hubby, I don't want to hug him either. Even when he tries and basically steals one, he gets a pretty cold hug back. 

That being said, I'm generally a very affectionate person when I'm not hella annoyed LOL.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> This. And when you ask, recognize that you can get no for an answer. Otherwise *you are expecting which is a form of control.* When you cede that attempt at control, it is much more likely that a request will be met with kindness.


I think it could be controlling if you are threatening them with a "consequence" if they don't do what you want.

Otherwise, expecting is really just setting _yourself_ up for disappointment. It doesn't necessarily have any impact on them, especially if they are secure in themselves.

Santa, it sounds like that is what happened to you, no? You wanted something, felt entitled to it, and were disappointed not to get it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I'm glad you said the "mom" thing because I was about to say you've got to cut your own umbilical cord.


Or find somewhere else to plug it in.

Seriously, some women love to mother men. Why not match up with a woman like that than try to twist yourself into something you are not? I am not sure it works, anyway.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

yeah, it would be easier in a way to just reconnect with someone more compatible

but then, she might get sick of it too.

and you might get sick of her getting sick of it and decide to go right to the source


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Badsanta, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be nurtured by a woman. I want to make that clear. 

I myself need to be nurtured by my husband. It is not going to change. It is how I am.

And fortunately it is his need to take care of me, to nurture me and basically be the "daddy" I never had. It fills a deep need in him.

See how that works? Complementary needs. Harmonious relationship.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BTW the last thing I want when I am angry is to have to hug the person I am angry at to make THEM feel better. Why is the desire for hugginess "righter" than the desire for not hugginess? The ONLY people I will hug when I am angry with them, which RARELY happens, is my kids. Because I am their MOM.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> yeah, it would be easier in a way to just reconnect with someone more compatible
> 
> but then, she might get sick of it too.
> 
> and you might get sick of her getting sick of it and *decide to go right to the source*


?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

the "source" or root issue is: why do you have this need for someone else to make you feel better?

sure, you might find someone else who is more willing to do that, but is that really the problem?

As an example (and I am not offering this to be pejorative toward BadSanta), my kids have emotional regulation issues.

They frequently are unable to calm themselves down, so they do actually need hugs from a parent or someone like that to soothe them

Although I understand this about them and willingly provide this, it is unquestionably a limitation for them and makes life much more difficult.

It is the same limitation for anybody who would need this in order to calm down. It's just a matter of degree.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My cat gives 100℅ hugs. Sure, you gotta watch the industrial size claws. The cat also knows when I'm stressed and freely cuddles.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> My cat gives 100℅ hugs. Sure, you gotta watch the industrial size claws. The cat also knows when I'm stressed and freely cuddles.


OMG my dogs can sense when I am unhappy and come trotting over with nuzzles and up into my lap for a cuddle and lick... even my non-cuddly one.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Um, this is sort or intertwined with another topic we having going on long term marriage success on Independence.

Okay, I'll concede. . .sometimes your partner NEEDS a hug - their dog of 15 years just had to be put down and they're a mess, time has elapsed between affection, or once in awhile, just a bad day. She SHOULD be sensitive to that.

It was just the way you pouted for it that struck me. . .odd.

Then. . .you come here and go, "Huh! Didn't work. Why?"

Am I the only one struck by the oddity of this?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> My cat gives 100℅ hugs. Sure, you gotta watch the industrial size claws. The cat also knows when I'm stressed and freely cuddles.





NobodySpecial said:


> OMG my dogs can sense when I am unhappy and come trotting over with nuzzles and up into my lap for a cuddle and lick... even my non-cuddly one.




I have heard that about animals, that they love their owners and give them affection freely and generously. I can see how that could become a sort of substitute for a spouse.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Scannerguard said:


> Um, this is sort or intertwined with another topic we having going on long term marriage success on Independence.
> 
> Okay, I'll concede. . .sometimes your partner NEEDS a hug - their dog of 15 years just had to be put down and they're a mess, time has elapsed between affection, or once in awhile, just a bad day. She SHOULD be sensitive to that.
> 
> ...


Of course. That is what we are discussing.

Affection has to be a free will choice, if you want it to feel good.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I have heard that about animals, that they love their owners and give them affection freely and generously. I can see how that could become a sort of substitute for a spouse.


Nah. They are also limited in intellectual capacity. I never had to work that hard to teach DH not to pee on the floor.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Nah. They are also limited in intellectual capacity. I never had to work that hard to teach DH not to pee on the floor.


:lol:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> the "source" or root issue is: why do you have this need for someone else to make you feel better?
> 
> sure, you might find someone else who is more willing to do that, but is that really the problem?
> 
> ...


It is a limitation. And some have it greater than others.

Anon, look at your own life. Look at how you feel because your emotional (sexual) needs are not met by your wife. 

If they continue to not be met, your capacity to give may also become limited. Or at least not what it could have been.

Badsanta, is what you are doing sustainable? Is it helping you and your wife be all you could be in a relationship? Or is it postponing the inevitable?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jld said:


> is what you are doing sustainable? Is it helping you and your wife be all you could be in a relationship? Or is it postponing the inevitable?


I think these are important questions

it's good to admit your own limitations

your limitations are not always set in stone though


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I think a hug from a loved one is fine, but if it is needed due to a conflict with that person then hugging it out probably isn't the right way to do it.

Resolve the issue that cause the problem in the first place then use the hug as part of the reconciliation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I think these are important questions
> 
> it's good to admit your own limitations
> 
> your limitations are not always set in stone though


True


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Scannerguard said:


> Um, this is sort or intertwined with another topic we having going on long term marriage success on Independence.
> 
> Okay, I'll concede. . .sometimes your partner NEEDS a hug - their dog of 15 years just had to be put down and they're a mess, time has elapsed between affection, or once in awhile, just a bad day. She SHOULD be sensitive to that.


That is a bit different than wanting reassurance from the person you just angered after a "bitter" argument.



> It was just the way you pouted for it that struck me. . .odd.
> 
> Then. . .you come here and go, "Huh! Didn't work. Why?"
> 
> Am I the only one struck by the oddity of this?


Apparently from this board, it is not "odd" as in unusual at all, alas.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Well, you can get a hug that way, but from your mom. If your wife feels like your mom, she is unlikely to want to have sex with you, kwim?
> 
> But there are women out there who are pleased to hug men when they need it. It serves a need in those women.
> 
> The trick is matching up men who need that in women with women who want/need to give it.





Anon1111 said:


> I'm glad you said the "mom" thing because I was about to say you've got to cut your own umbilical cord.


The "mom" replies hit a nerve with me for some reason. I'm definitely NOT a mamma's boy as I never had a close relationship with my mom. I often felt annoyed by her visits to the house as she would try and baby me. Having said that she just passed away recently (end of last year). Leading up to this argument with my wife was the very first time I had been sick with a really bad fever since she died. My wife is NOT very nurturing with me when I get sick, and if anything she gets annoyed as if I am faking it, over exaggerating or just being lazy around the house. 

Strange to think I married someone that is almost the polar opposite of my mom, and felt that was what I would need in life to make me a better person. My wife is definitely NOT going to baby me, as she expects me to be a man. If anything she will kick me while I'm down as "encouragement" for me to get back up on my feet.

But still, I'm not perfect and I'll stumble every now and then. Perhaps I need to know that the way my wife loves me is to never give me a helping hand to pick myself back up unless she knows I really need it. 

We are OK now and back to our usual selves. *I did manage to find my inner peace, but I was struggling to understand that I guess I can not ask for hugs if and when I feel I need one (my new lesson of the day!).* When I hugged my wife today she recalled an episode in which I tried to force her to do something she did not want to do when we were first married (visit my grandma), and that did NOT go that well for me. She had her reasons and I will not go into that story, but my wife just want to reiterate how stubborn she could be. 

I'm still reading through replies. I appreciate everyone's feedback. I'm learning stuff here!

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> I think it could be controlling if you are threatening them with a "consequence" if they don't do what you want.
> 
> Otherwise, expecting is really just setting _yourself_ up for disappointment. It doesn't necessarily have any impact on them, especially if they are secure in themselves.
> 
> Santa, it sounds like that is what happened to you, no? You wanted something, felt entitled to it, and were disappointed not to get it.


In this case AND in situations in the past I have definitely felt entitled to a hug when I need one. "To have and to hold" are the words that come to mind, and it seems like there should be a hug in there somewhere during good times AND bad ones. 

My wife has felt VERY ENTITLED to NOT give me one unless she can do so lovingly AND naturally. 

OMG, I am NOT going to tell her that people here agree with her! I'm just going to learn to keep my act together.

Badsanta


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> When I hugged my wife today she recalled an episode in which I tried to force her to do something she did not want to do when we were first married (visit my grandma), and that did NOT go that well for me.


Look at your words. You said you "asked". She thinks you "forced". Since you at very least "expected" we can infer at least "coerced". 



> She had her reasons and I will not go into that story, but my wife just want to reiterate how stubborn she could be.


I'd bet she doesn't. I'd bet she wants her view of HER feelings to be as innately "right" as you feel yours are wrt hugs and every damned thing.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Badsanta, is what you are doing sustainable? Is it helping you and your wife be all you could be in a relationship? Or is it postponing the inevitable?


I honestly think I have to be a man and be able to pick myself up when I stumble (emotionally speaking).


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I tend to not want affection when I'm arguing with a partner. At least, not until the argument is over and we've talked the issue through and everyone has calmed down. I'm not much on "angry sex" or even "makeup sex" either, for that matter. To me, physical affection with someone I am angry with, who I know is also angry with me, just doesn't feel good. It feels smothering and too much in a way that is almost physically suffocating. 

I also have a lot of experience dealing with someone who thought that if we exchanged any affection at all, then the argument was over and he'd "won". So, essentially, a hug, even if he asked for it, was in his mind an admission that I'd been wrong. The argument was then over, he'd won it and the topic we'd been arguing over was forever closed. That's....exceptionally frustrating. Perhaps not with you (I should hope), but she may have experienced this from a prior partner or even a parent or caregiver. It makes one wary of exchanging affectionate gestures in the midst of arguments.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Rowan,

Gets the 24 karat (pure) gold award for her post below:




Rowan said:


> I tend to not want affection when I'm arguing with a partner. At least, not until the argument is over and we've talked the issue through and everyone has calmed down. I'm not much on "angry sex" or even "makeup sex" either, for that matter. To me, physical affection with someone I am angry with, who I know is also angry with me, just doesn't feel good. It feels smothering and too much in a way that is almost physically suffocating.
> 
> I also have a lot of experience dealing with someone who thought that if we exchanged any affection at all, then the argument was over and he'd "won". So, essentially, a hug, even if he asked for it, was in his mind an admission that I'd been wrong. The argument was then over, he'd won it and the topic we'd been arguing over was forever closed. That's....exceptionally frustrating. Perhaps not with you (I should hope), but she may have experienced this from a prior partner or even a parent or caregiver. It makes one wary of exchanging affectionate gestures in the midst of arguments.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> My wife is NOT very nurturing with me when I get sick, and if anything she gets annoyed as if I am faking it, over exaggerating or just being lazy around the house.


I am laughing at this part. My husband gets SOOOOO laid low when he is "sick". He has absolutely no symptoms. But can barely do anything but go to work for a week. Then he got a confirmed case of one of the total sh!t flues in recent years. I don't remember which one. He had fever for a day. Ok, fair enough. Then he was basically immobile for a week with no other reported symptom. Ha! He is either a liar or a wimp! Then the kids came down with the same thing. Doc says yup to all three of them, it is the sh!t flu! I got tired for a day. Instead of cooking dinner, I ordered pizza. That was the sum of the effect on me. I concluded that I was comparing him to me since I just don't get very sick. 

Luckily my husband doesn't want to be patted or whatever when he is sick. He likes help with the practical stuff. Was actually embarrassed recently when he had to ask me to make me a sandwich when stricken with Lyme disease. wtf? Of course I will make you a sandwich. To be fair, he was out of his mind with fever and the wicked antibiotics that they gave him. All he wanted was his cherished place on the couch, water and iced tea .... and a sandwich.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> My wife is NOT very nurturing with me when I get sick, and if anything she gets annoyed as if I am faking it, over exaggerating or just being lazy around the house.


a few thoughts here:

1. you can't make someone have empathy for you.

2. if you were single you'd just deal with it

3. by now you know how she is so you can stop expecting her to be different and ignore her when she accuses you of faking it, etc



badsanta said:


> My wife is definitely NOT going to baby me, as she expects me to be a man. If anything she will kick me while I'm down as "encouragement" for me to get back up on my feet.


can she really kick you though? or do you _allow _her to kick you because you are so invested in where she's at emotionally?



badsanta said:


> Perhaps I need to know that the way my wife loves me is to never give me a helping hand to pick myself back up unless she knows I really need it.


consider the difference between a gift and an expectation

If you don't expect her to do anything for you, anything she does is a gift

This is initially a somewhat depressing way of looking at the relationship because in a way it is giving up on expecting anything from her.

However, if she is consistently disappointing you, you are probably overinvesting in the expectation department and detachment may result in greater equanimity.



badsanta said:


> When I hugged my wife today she recalled an episode in which I tried to force her to do something she did not want to do when we were first married (visit my grandma), and that did NOT go that well for me. She had her reasons and I will not go into that story, but my wife just want to reiterate how stubborn she could be.
> 
> I'm still reading through replies. I appreciate everyone's feedback. I'm learning stuff here!
> 
> Badsanta


to her it is probably all the same thread-- you expect too much from her. so even though to you it seems like she brings up unrelated issues, they are not unrelated to her.

you likely desire a greater level of emotional interdependence than she does.

if you detach yourself, you may lessen your disappointment when she does not provide the emotional support you hope for AND you may give her what she really wants.

consider that the emotional connectedness may be completely in your head anyway because she is not on the same page as you.

so in reality, the only thing you might be giving up is your own disappointment.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> If you don't expect her to do anything for you, anything she does is a gift












The reason my wife will not give me a hug (I know now as we talked about it) is that she expects me to be emotionally strong and able to calm myself down when I am angry, and that I can NOT force her to do anything. If you saw the family I grew up in, you would then understand that with this she expects A LOT from me! Even my wife scratches her head after seeing how my siblings behave and wonders what it is I managed to do so that I was the one that turned out normal _for the most part_. 

...back to Phil Dunphy! Now there is some truth into the quality of life improving by lowering one's expectations. For example sex can actually turn out to be phenomenal when you not only lower you expectations, but if you also are willing to playfully try and fail at it. You find yourself leaning to try something new and be vulnerable and that is exciting. Now should we lower the expectations we set on our partners that is used to help maintain the status quo and quality of life? Should my wife feel like I just performed a miracle each time I take out the trash, unclog a toilet, or fix a problem on her computer? Well that would be nice, but she feels and behaves as if she is entitled to all that stuff. She has even gone so far to say that if I ever refuse that she will just hire a handyman to do those things when she needs them (I guess that makes her independent, I don't know). 

Perhaps to make a joke out of this whole episode I will playfully tell her I expect a hug the next time I get upset. When she refuses, I will actually be completely OK with that and tell her I'll just hire a masseuse at the YMCA! I'll have it on speed dial and actually do it!

:grin2:

Ha ha!

Badsanta


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## Buffon06 (Aug 14, 2016)

Badsanta, I have come to the conclusion that you have a very complex relationship with your wife.

Many times, you have talked about the strategies you employ with her to pique her interest in you, and how you have made a game of "trying and playfully failing" to get her to pay attention to you and to get her to react in certain ways. Like the joke you refer to in your last paragraph. I think that is fine, and in many ways it seems to work for you.

From my perspective, that would seem to be a lot of work, perhaps a lot of game-playing, in order to get the desired result. 

I don't ask my wife for hugs very often. So when I do, she knows that I probably really do need one, and will give me one. However, I would never ask for a hug in the context of an argument or disagreement. I know she will be angry and upset with me, and that is just not the right time or place for me to ask for a hug. Perhaps most importantly, it would come across to her as being needy and weak, and it would be a major turn-off for her. She would probably feel much more contempt for me than pity in that situation.

That said, my wife and I argue the most over the following things:

1.) When I don't pay enough attention to her; specifically for my lack of "active listening", and/or for not letting her finish her thought or sentence before I begin talking.

2.) When I feel like she is being hypercritical of something I have said or done. 

3.) Her tendency to "change the subject" when we are discussing something that she is uncomfortable discussing, or she is simply not interested in discussing. For example, one of the big hurdles I was able to clear as a result of our MC a few years ago was my willingness to talk openly and comfortably about sex, and our MC encouraged me to do so with my wife's support. So when I am in the middle of discussing something sexual in nature, it frustrates me to no end to have her change the subject in the middle of the conversation. By the same token, she gets upset when I point out that she has changed the subject, and attempt to steer her back to the subject (could be any subject, not just sex).

4.) My tendency to react to a situation or something that was said without fully and calmly processing it.

I would say 90+% of our confrontations originate from one of these four situations. For me, my big challenge is to be able to quickly identify these situations, and respond in a way that will not escalate them. I have gotten better but I still have a lot of work to do.

What I have been able to do with a good deal of success is to be calm and rational (not angry) when we do have an argument, but not be pouty or needy in the aftermath. If I was clearly in the wrong (like cutting her off in mid-sentence), I will calmly apologize, and tell her I was wrong to do that.

To me, your biggest opportunity in situations like you describe is your ability to quickly "self-soothe", and move on with life without projecting neediness or frustration. I feel like your wife feels contempt for you when you are like that, and that she finds that unattractive. She may find the calmness and control that you project by "self-soothing" to be more appealing, and she will be less likely to further escalate the situation.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I think @Buffon06 is exactly correct. However, first you have to make the decision the you want to become more self-controlled, that you are doing it for your own growth and development. And that you are going to stay with your wife even though she is in some sense demanding that you change in this way. You have to let her "win". In fact you have to WANT her to win, in the sense that you see providing her with the kind of behavior she finds attractive as a "win-win" for both of you.

Or you can decide you want to be married to a woman who likes to give hugs freely and likes to "baby" her husband. And that you prefer to remain a "softy" and find a woman who likes that sort of man rather than change to become more attractive to your current wife.

Either of those is a perfectly fine choice. What is not a good choice is to stay with your wife and remain "mushy" and expect to have a mutually satisfying sex life.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The best way to defuse an argument is not to have one in the first place. Some people are not very rational at times and any argument has the potential to escalate badly.

I have had success with standard task or situation base Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques, pretty much, explain a situation in detail, present options, and let her "choose". That way shes actively involved in the solution.

That works well except CBT with her is not "permanent" and you have to repeat it time after time. 

In the past we had far fewer arguments because of this. Now that both of us have left the building, little gets decided, argument or not.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Buffon06 said:


> Badsanta, I have come to the conclusion that you have a very complex relationship with your wife.
> 
> Many times, you have talked about the strategies you employ with her to pique her interest in you, and how you have made a game of "trying and playfully failing" to get her to pay attention to you and to get her to react in certain ways. Like the joke you refer to in your last paragraph. I think that is fine, and in many ways it seems to work for you.


"Playful failure" does seem like something I am rather good at! I would not describe it as something that takes work, but I am naturally good at failing and managing to be upbeat about it. Now that I know and accept why my wife will not give me a hug when I need one, I can actually use that to my advantage. 



> To me, your biggest opportunity in situations like you describe is your ability to quickly "self-soothe", and move on with life without projecting neediness or frustration. I feel like your wife feels contempt for you when you are like that, and that she finds that unattractive. She may find the calmness and control that you project by "self-soothing" to be more appealing, and she will be less likely to further escalate the situation.


COMPLETELY AGREE! For this reason I continued a calm argument with my wife that I insist she should always be able to give me a hug when I need one. Obviously now that I know she will not I can be playful about it and not allow it to bother me. 

For bedtime tonight, I plan to read to her from the chapter about hugging in the book the "Passionate Marriage" that describes therapeutical hugging for couples. It is a technique called, "hugging until relaxed!" In this book the author/therapist says that:



> My approach differs in that you generally get the hardest things first. Hugging till relaxed isn't easy to do with real depth. It's like intercourse in that neither is too difficult if you only do it superficially—but profound hugging till relaxed is harder to fake... It’s not uncommon to be moved by the experience.


...hmmmmmm rereading this chapter and putting it in the context of a marital debate actually does seem rather profound. I'm NOT asking for the hug because of external problems I need my wife to shelter me from emotionally, but rather I am making myself vulnerable while debating a hot topic in our marriage. In reading this it would seem as though my wife is the one that is not brave enough to be vulnerable with me while we argue. Re-remembering through are arguments I would say she was mostly "afraid" to hug me because she perceived me as angry at her. 

OK, I still agree I can NOT expect her to hug me, but I think perhaps I was going in the correct direction by trying to defuse our arguments with a hug. I'm NOT talking about "winning" an argument but more so deescalating things so we can discuss our issues in a calm manner after hugging as opposed to being extremely _defensive_ with one another. 

I'm not ready to completely let this one go just yet!

Badsanta


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

The point of the hug is that you want her to reassure you of her love for you, no?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> The best way to defuse an argument is not to have one in the first place. Some people are not very rational at times and any argument has the potential to escalate badly.


Well @john117 this is where the two of us would completely disagree with one another regarding our philosophy in life. 

*I strongly believe that you don't get the good without including the bad! *

I NEVER shy away from an argument! Even with my boss at work, when there is a problem I do not wait around for others to notice. I actively solve the problem and then inform others as to allow my boss to object to my solutions if needed. 

So with my wife it was like, "hay we have a problem, lets hug and work this out!" While some suggest the problem should first be solved and THEN followed by a hug, my primary problem was my wife being too defensive and she perceived me as too angry. Her solution to that is that we go our separate ways until she has calmed down. While that works and can take days, I would much rather prefer to tackle the problem directly and NOT run away from it until it just goes away.

Hmmmmm lets dig into some Corinthians

Love is not easily angered! (OK not good for me!)
Love is patient (Again not good for me!)
Love keeps no records of wrongs (Not good for me as I was counting the days of no hugs)

CRAP, I was hoping it would say that "love is not afraid" in there somewhere but I got it handed to me again by reading that love is not self seeking.

OK, what is this technique of argument avoidance you speak of again John might I humbly ask? 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> The point of the hug is that you want her to reassure you of her love for you, no?


I just wanted to find a way to calm her down so we can talk. Admittedly I needed to calm myself down as well. Not sure which of the two I needed to calm down first (me or her) but thought we could do it together with a hug.

Reassuring we love each other would be us working out our issues together in a calm conversation that would hopefully follow.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I just wanted to find a way to calm her down so we can talk. Admittedly I needed to calm myself down as well. Not sure which of the two I needed to calm down first (me or her) but thought we could do it together with a hug.
> 
> Reassuring we love each other would be us working out our issues together in a calm conversation that would hopefully follow.


Badsanta. Come on.

You did it for yourself, not for her. You were thinking of yourself, and what you needed, not her and her needs.

What would have it looked like if you had been in a good place, and focused on her and her needs?


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## Buffon06 (Aug 14, 2016)

I don't think that hugging your wife in the midst of an argument is a good way to diffuse the situation, and facilitate more rational discourse. It makes you appear weak and soft and perhaps vulnerable, but not in a good way. I know my wife would get even more confrontational if I tried to hug her in the middle of a bitter argument because it would illicit her feelings of contempt for me. She might even tell me I'm a wimp and to stop it.

I still maintain the best way to diffuse an argument is to remain calm and rational and to not "rise to the emotional bait" that my wife puts out there because she knows how to push my buttons. The best way for me to diffuse is to quickly recognize the signs of an impending confrontation, and to respond in a way that neutralizes the situation before it escalates.

For me, trying the "hugging until relaxed" approach during an argument would work about as well as dropping my pants during an argument with my wife, pulling out my erect penis, and saying "This argument made me really horny, Honey. Let's just f*ck instead!"


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Buffon06 said:


> I don't think that hugging your wife in the midst of an argument is a good way to diffuse the situation, and facilitate more rational discourse. It makes you appear weak and soft and perhaps vulnerable, but not in a good way. I know my wife would get even more confrontational if I tried to hug her in the middle of a bitter argument because it would illicit her feelings of contempt for me. She might even tell me I'm a wimp and to stop it.
> 
> I still maintain the best way to diffuse an argument is to remain calm and rational and to not "rise to the emotional bait" that my wife puts out there because she knows how to push my buttons. The best way for me to diffuse is to quickly recognize the signs of an impending confrontation, and to respond in a way that neutralizes the situation before it escalates.
> 
> For me, trying the "hugging until relaxed" approach during an argument would work about as well as dropping my pants during an argument with my wife, pulling out my erect penis, and saying "This argument made me really horny, Honey. Let's just f*ck instead!"


Can't argue with you as you make great points!


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## Buffon06 (Aug 14, 2016)

This quote in jld's signature tagline says it all:

"One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms."


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I actually think a hug ends up looking condescending. Like, look at you still so angry, I can save you with my calm rational self!

Honestly, getting naked and doing helicopters seems to stop an argument the fastest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Santa, Dr. John's approach is based on behavioral analysis and modelling. Which is psychobabble speak for 'observe, theorize, infer'. 

Pretty much you make a basic model of someone's behavior. Not too difficult if you live with them. The model identifies trigger points and you can, ahead of time, mitigate these trigger points a bit.

It won't work with someone you just met on Tinder, but if you have a few years together and you're a good observer it's not too difficult.

You need to know both the high level view and the low level view. Nothing insurmountable. 

Once you eliminate the squabble parts, you can have all the fights you want about the important parts


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

@badsanta I admit I did not read al of the responses. I feel it is not a good idea to ask for a hug. It is not a matter of whether or not it's ok but does asking for a hug when she is angry and you feel adrift support the dynamic that you want in your marriage. 

You know your wife and you can probably predict what she will do in particular situations. You know she is not a hug type of person and has a tendency to withdraw when there is conflict. 

So the first thing you should ask yourself is why you let yourself bump up against every limit you know she has? You were not looking for a hug because you knew you wouldn't get it. Think about it. 

You are a manly man with tools and stuff. When a fight seems to get in the red zone, stop and tell her you both need time out and when you both calm down, etc. 

Find an independent activity that is enjoyable and siphons off tension. Use your nail gun to make a bird house or a mallet to pound chicken wire into the earth around the tomato patch. Whatever you do, make it independent and a way of calming yourself.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It may seem that you are walking away from what you want but actually you are moving closer. Don't close the space between you and your wife when she is withdrawn, increase it slightly. Give her room to breath and come to you. 

It is not a game but simply human nature. When something is always there, it becomes background noise and we don't notice it. Don't be the same all of the time, create space and independence. She will come to you to get you to chase her again. 

So chase her and when she gets snippy, go back to create space and independence. Its like a dance, never close when the other person is walking away but at the first sign of willingness to re-engage, close the gap. 

Always remain courteous and calm, don't upset her and then bear hug her. It will feel like you are trying to stop her from reacting to your temper.


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

badsanta, I like your playful behavior. Maybe you can pull off the hugging during an argument. I can't. My wife is very similar to yours. She doesn't want hugs, and says it makes her hot and sweaty. And it's too touchy feely and she's not into it. But the kids can hug her. So my response is to hug her and touch her and loosen her up. Because she is too intense and just can't relax. And I can't have a wife who is untouchable. Otherwise I will find someone else who isn't and she can find someone else who won't. In the end, there is a middle ground. However when it is a serious matter of disagreement as you have posted, I know my wife and will not attempt a hug. She will bite me.


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## jewels465 (Nov 20, 2014)

The man just wanted a hug. She went 3 days and didn't give him a hug. It's not like he was asking for sex or a bj! It shouldn't be that big of a deal. If your wife can't give you a hug, there's a problem. Imo


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> My husband has figured out a pretty surefire way to get hugs through all of this: don't ask, just do. Calmly and nicely. Don't ask, just do. I will be honest, I don't usually feel any better and sometimes get more angry at the contact but I'm willing to accept it if he gives it with the full knowledge that I am still raw and pissed and it means nothing.


I agree with this and this normally works. It was actually what I tried to do BEFORE I lost it and had my melt down. I went to her and gave her a big hug. Instead of returning the hug, I could tell that she was just not in the mood for any physical contact. After a few moments she began picking at me by yanking the hair from my lower back to make me scream in agony (her favorite way to get a rise out of me), but I was not in the mood for this. I withdrew and told her I needed a serious hug and not one of her being in a silly mood. When I did this I did not realize that feeling entitled to a serious hug would send the whole weekend into a thermo-nuclear meltdown. 

I should have just withdrawn and given her some space. 

Badsanta


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

badsanta said:


> For bedtime tonight, I plan to read to her from the chapter about hugging in the book the "Passionate Marriage" that describes therapeutical hugging for couples. It is a technique called, "hugging until relaxed!" In this book the author/therapist says that:
> 
> OK, I still agree I can NOT expect her to hug me, but *I think perhaps I was going in the correct direction by trying to defuse our arguments with a hug. I'm NOT talking about "winning" an argument but more so deescalating things so we can discuss our issues in a calm manner after hugging as opposed to being extremely defensive with one another. *


I think you've got a near-terminal case of The Shoulds. You think she_ should _give you a hug anytime you ask, even during an argument. You think she _should_ be calmed by a hug during an argument. You think a hug in that situation _should_ de-escalate the argument. And you've got expert literature to back up your position. So, ya know, she totally should fall in line - because she _should_! 

The problem, of course, is that all those "shoulds" are basically not reflecting the reality of the situation. They also serve as a sort of mental "I'm reasonable, rational and right!" for you, placing her - naturally - in the wrong. The fact is, your wife is not calmed by hugging during a bitter argument. Doing that does not de-escalate the argument. In fact, it escalates it and gives you another point about which to argue. It deflects and changes the subject from the original argument, but does nothing to resolve it. By insisting that your wife should comply and think about this in the same way you do, you're basically dismissing her feelings and providing another adversarial, you vs. her, situation. Suddenly, the argument is no longer about whatever started it, but about, basically, what's wrong with her that she can't even hug her husband - _like she should_. 

Because you think a hug during an argument is a great thing and that author/expert thinks hugging is a great thing...so she should too! Because reasons!

You might find yourself more compatible with a partner for whom what you think should work, actually does. But, clearly, that partner is not your wife. So, alternately, I advise figuring out what actually does work to de-escalate an argument - space, calm conversation, whatever - with your wife, rather than what you insist should work.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> The reason my wife will not give me a hug (I know now as we talked about it) is that she expects me to be emotionally strong and able to calm myself down when I am angry, and that I can NOT force her to do anything. If you saw the family I grew up in, you would then understand that with this she expects A LOT from me! Even my wife scratches her head after seeing how my siblings behave and wonders what it is I managed to do so that I was the one that turned out normal _for the most part_.


what's interesting to me is that in your response above, you reverted back to seeing the issue through the lens of what your wife expects.

it comes off as trying to pass some test. the inherent expectation is that if you pass the mysterious test she has for you, you will be rewarded with what you really want.

I am saying forget about her. Focus on why YOU feel these needs and desires. Are they real? Do they bring you any satisfaction, or is it just an endless treadmill?

she can hold you to whatever standard she wants and it doesn't really matter. it only has whatever weight you give it.



badsanta said:


> ...Now should we lower the expectations we set on our partners that is used to help maintain the status quo and quality of life? Should my wife feel like I just performed a miracle each time I take out the trash, unclog a toilet, or fix a problem on her computer? Well that would be nice, but she feels and behaves as if she is entitled to all that stuff. She has even gone so far to say that if I ever refuse that she will just hire a handyman to do those things when she needs them (I guess that makes her independent, I don't know).
> 
> Perhaps to make a joke out of this whole episode I will playfully tell her I expect a hug the next time I get upset. When she refuses, I will actually be completely OK with that and tell her I'll just hire a masseuse at the YMCA! I'll have it on speed dial and actually do it!
> 
> ...


Maybe this is all obvious.

I'm trying not to say this is a d-ckish way.

you don't take out the trash, etc, because you're looking for some reward from her. 

you just do it because YOU think it needs doing. if you don't think it needs doing, f- it. 

who cares if she thinks she's entitled to it?

you're not entitled to anything and neither is she.

that's the reality. anything either one of you does for the other is ENTIRELY by choice and is a total gift.

cut through this web of secret exchanges and just live your life in an ordinary way, doing the things you need to do for their own sake without games or setups or schemes.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jewels465 said:


> The man just wanted a hug. She went 3 days and didn't give him a hug. It's not like he was asking for sex or a bj! It shouldn't be that big of a deal. If your wife can't give you a hug, there's a problem. Imo


 @jewels465 if I could have had a t-shirt printed with this, I would have done it. When I started this thread, I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you, and it was what I wanted to hear someone say. 

I would so much want to build a case that if you are unable to hug someone, that perhaps "you" are the one with the problem and throw this is my wife's face with yet another layer of entitlement to a hug. Fortunately TAM helped me out and explained that it is NOT OK to insist on a hug. 

Since this situation has now fully played out and things are back to normal, I also think a good bit of why my wife refused to hug me was a bit of a power play to help rebalance our respect for one another in the relationship. Because I had been sick with a fever, I had completely dumped 100% of the business of running a family and getting the kids ready for going back to school completely onto her. When this happens, she tends to feel I am disrespecting the relationship and she becomes emotionally distant from me. She needs to feel me as an equal partner regarding the business of running a family, THEN she will be emotionally close to me. 

So I needed to get myself better, get up off my ass, and start contributing again before she was going to be ready for a hug. In the meantime she was still there for me, but she was NOT happy emotionally about being overwhelmed with the kids. Add to this I was giving her shît because I felt entitled to a heartfelt hug from her. 

...ummm yeah. I have to be man enough here to admit I was wrong and that the majority of TAM and my wife were correct in that I can *not* force a hug in a marriage when I feel as though one is needed for whatever reason. 

So @jewels465 since you and I are now in "relationship detention" together since we are both in the wrong, I would normally ask you for a big hug, but this time I think it is best we just make goofy faces at each other until we officially learn the lesson!

Badsanta


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think @Buffon06 You have to let her "win". In fact you have to WANT her to win, in the sense that you see providing her with the kind of behavior she finds attractive as a "win-win" for both of you.


good point

you gain an immense sense of power and possibility when you realize ANYTHING can be a win for you if YOU own the outcome


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jld said:


> Badsanta. Come on.
> 
> You did it for yourself, not for her. You were thinking of yourself, and what you needed, not her and her needs.
> 
> What would have it looked like if you had been in a good place, and focused on her and her needs?


or, if you're not able to stretch so far as this in that particular moment, what if you just forgot about your own need

that would basically accomplish the same thing


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

jewels465 said:


> The man just wanted a hug. She went 3 days and didn't give him a hug. It's not like he was asking for sex or a bj! It shouldn't be that big of a deal. If your wife can't give you a hug, there's a problem. Imo


this is legit too

I say address your need (i.e., lose it) to receive a hug in any particular situation.

once you have a better handle on that, evaluate whether a woman such as this is worth any investment

she might not be


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @jewels465
> 
> So I needed to get myself better, get up off my ass, and start contributing again before she was going to be ready for a hug. In the meantime she was still there for me, but she was NOT happy emotionally about being overwhelmed with the kids. Add to this I was giving her shît because I felt entitled to a heartfelt hug from her.


I am a bit all over you on this because I have experienced this situation many, many times myself.

You need to differentiate what are your issues and what are her issues.

Your issue is neediness.

Her issue _may _be coldness.

Both could be present.

First address your neediness, then evaluate if she is truly just cold. 

She currently may _present _as cold because she is so turned off by your neediness.

On the other hand, she may truly be a cold person even if you transform yourself into the most stoic, self-reliant guy in the world.

If that is the case, it would be legitimate for you to conclude that you're just not interested in going through all of the trouble to be married to someone like this.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> If that is the case, it would be legitimate for you to conclude that you're just not interested in going through all of the trouble to be married to someone like this.


I was with you until you got here. While there are "his needs" and "her needs" in a relationship I only share here a very small portion of the big picture. 

I would argue that the difference between our needs creates somewhat of a meaningful conflict that actually forms the heart of our marriage. I actually like the trouble as it keeps me on my toes and continues to make me into a better person, and it does the same for her. If everything were easy, it would then be boring...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

What is this "hug" you speak of??



But seriously, all this rhetoric about a hug. God, I crave hugs. I could hug all the time.

If you guys' argument was a deliberate exchange of the meanest things you could say, or if you were throwing stuff around----then I'd be borderline frightened of you, even I wouldn't want a hug.


Other than that I think a hug is a great way to smooth things over. Especially if it was one of those "flash in the pan" type of fights; much ado about nothing. Hugs are supposed to happen without even thinking about it. I miss frequent hugs so badly.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Other than that I think a hug is a great way to smooth things over.


Different strokes for different folks. A hug either is or is not a great way to "smooth things over" depending on the predilection of the participants. There is no objective rightness to the goodness of a hug in terms of smoothing fights.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

But hugs are like sex. Nothing wrong with liking hugs or not liking hugs. Nothing wrong with wanting a hug to end a fight or finding hugs uncomfortable too soon after fighting. But marriage is much easier if you pair 2 people who both enjoy them alot (even right after a fight) or both don't enjoy them much rather than pairing 1 person who is constantly hungering for hugs and another who feels uncomfortable when hugs occur or if hugs are too long, too frequent, too intense, etc.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Just give me a hug!! Don't think , don't theorize, don't wonder if it's right or not.

I had no idea this was something that even really needed to be talked about.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> But hugs are like sex. Nothing wrong with liking hugs or not liking hugs. Nothing wrong with wanting a hug to end a fight or finding hugs uncomfortable too soon after fighting. But marriage is much easier if you pair 2 people who both enjoy them alot (even right after a fight) or both don't enjoy them much rather than pairing 1 person who is constantly hungering for hugs and another who feels uncomfortable when hugs occur or if hugs are too long, too frequent, too intense, etc.


If you take the list of things that constitute emotional preference and attempt to pair up with someone who feels exactly the same way, you are never going to find that. Better to have 2 partners with enough self esteem not to require these preferences and enough empathy to want to supply these preferences in equal measure. That has never been achieved through neediness.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Agreed. But I have always found that sex/ physical touch is different because most married people expect fidelity as to those. Anything else you can do with others besides your spouse. So in my view, if sex or physical touch is important to you, then the one thing you should try to line up is sex / physical touch. Of course you will have differences. Have the differences be something else.

Also, while I agree "don't be needy" is good advice, I find many people have a very strong need for sex. For those people, they are well advised to find someone compatible as to sex and incompatible as to a less vital need. I can earn money by myself. I can raise my children by myself. I can clean and maintain a house by myself. The one thing that a person with a strong need for partner sex can NOT do by themselves is have partner sex.

Partner sex often remains a powerful need even among generally self-sufficient adults, and is unavailable from anyone besides your spouse. This tends to render the power dynamic between spouses too unstable when they are not matched sexually.So I stand by what I said. If you have a strong need for partner sex that continues to exist even after you have taken steps to make peace with yourself and not be a generally needy person, find another area of incompatibility.

Or to put it differently, there is a reason why sexual incompatibility is one of the biggest reasons people divorce. Wise to partner with someone where your incompatibility lies elsewhere.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Just give me a hug!! Don't think , don't theorize, don't wonder if it's right or not.
> 
> I had no idea this was something that even really needed to be talked about.


 @notmyrealname4 You broke right through my defense barriers!


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

My opinion differs from most of the people who have weighed in.

I think a hug is a "White Flag" of sorts and your wife was petty and mean spirited to not give you one.

My wife is much like your's in this respect and it is a major disappointment.

However, with my ex when we had a spat or fight if either of us threw up the white flag and hugged the other reciprocated and even if we were still in disagreement we WANTED that hug.

I miss that....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Offering a hug might be a white flag. Asking for one, and getting upset when you don't get it, just makes you unappealing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jarhed said:


> My opinion differs from most of the people who have weighed in.
> 
> *I think a hug is a "White Flag" of sorts and your wife was petty and mean spirited to not give you one.*
> 
> ...





jld said:


> Offering a hug might be a white flag. *Asking for one, and getting upset when you don't get it, just makes you unappealing.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I asked for one and did NOT get one, that means that *she actively chose NOT to give me one, which in my opinion also made her very unappealing! Am I wrong for feeling that way and getting hurt by it?*
@jld from the woman's point of view you may be correct. But from the guy's point of view this is the equivalent of requesting a "cease fire" from an argument, and seeing that your wife has a policy of "take no prisoners" and she will use that white flag to take you down and display her dominance in the relationship!

In my opinion it is all about dominance! Asking for a hug and giving a hug in a relationship for someone that wants to dominate the situation is like handing them some grenades to throw at you. They throw them, you get hurt, and then they belittle you that you look angry or unappealing! And as other posters have said, one should NOT be vulnerable. So I have to suck it up and keep it together so that my wife can NOT hurt me! 

...cause you know, building walls so we can't hurt one another is what makes relationships strong. For men I actually agree while this sounds sarcastic, that it is TRUE!!! Men have to be strong and in the heat of a battle we have to stand strong and keep our shît together. Women want a relationship in which they can feel emotionally protected and they never want to see their man in a weakened or vulnerable state OR it makes us as you say "unappealing." 

Tough lesson to learn. 

Some feel "vulnerability" in relationships is what makes us powerful if we can be willing to accept it.

https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability?language=en

Men should NOT watch that as it is the _female_ perspective on vulnerability!

Badsanta


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't know that it is the male or female viewpoint. It is one male or female viewpoint.

Remember @notmyrealname4 saying that a man who would run to the bathroom crying after his wife said a harsh word to him is exactly the kind of man she wants?

Completely unappealing to me, but totally appealing to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Come on @badsanta I hope you are just venting because I think you are making this much more complicated than it is in reality. I don't want to dominate my husband, far from it. However, when I'm not ready to hug in the middle of an argument, I feel I have a right to decline, but respectfully so.

If you think a hug is a power exchange then I see why thus takes on so much meaning. Maybe this is not about this incident, its about the balance of power you feel in your relationship. You brought this up before. Do you feel your physical needs takes away your power with respect to the relationship with your wife? 

My impression is that she needs you more than you need her but she effectively hides it by keeping you off balance. You cooperate by letting her yank your chain. If you were less reactive, calm and self soothing, the real reason for her anxiety would become apparent. 

Then you both could work on the primary issues in the relationship, her insecurity about your love and attraction for her and your doubts in her love and acceptance of you. 

It's not about power and dominance. You'er a team and you both have power and dominance in your respective areas of expertise. That's what makes a good team, the accomplishments of the sum exceed the abilities of either member alone.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't know that it is the male or female viewpoint. It is one male or female viewpoint.
> 
> Remember @notmyrealname4 saying that a man who would run to the bathroom crying after his wife said a harsh word to him is exactly the kind of man she wants?
> 
> ...


Agreed, but getting back to hugs and vulnerability.

Imagine Doug has been very ill with a high fever, but you have no patience for him being sick and ask him to be self sufficient and keep some distance as to not get you sick. He finally gets better and feels himself again and wants a hug to reconnect with you since it has been a week since you have been in each other's arms due to his illness. You say NO that you do NOT feel like a hug at that moment and he can't force one. This is challenging for Doug to accept because you did not want to be close to him for a week because he was ill, and now that he is better you still do not want a hug. 

Why as a woman would you do this to your husband?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Agreed, but getting back to hugs and vulnerability.
> 
> Imagine Doug has been very ill with a high fever, but you have no patience for him being sick and ask him to be self sufficient and keep some distance as to not get you sick. He finally gets better and feels himself again and wants a hug to reconnect with you since it has been a week since you have been in each other's arms due to his illness. You say NO that you do NOT feel like a hug at that moment and he can't force one. This is challenging for Doug to accept because you did not want to be close to him for a week because he was ill, and now that he is better you still do not want a hug.
> 
> Why as a woman would you do this to your husband?


Dug just isn't like that, badsanta. He is the kind of guy that, even when he is terribly sick, will not stay home. And he doesn't understand the guys who do.

And he would think it strange to ask his wife to baby him. I think he would laugh at the idea, actually.

I don't think Dug is into non-sexual affection. He is into sexual affection, though, lol. But if for some reason I did not want sex after a week of its absence, he would not force it. He would just trust it would come at some point.

And he would certainly not pout about it.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta, you are not going to like what I'm typing (hell I don't even like it) but here goes: Your wife has expressed her feelings regarding your porn use many times. She has had to comfort herself and tolerate it. Porn has an insidious way of affecting all areas of a marriage. You want your wife to give you a hug when you're down and she wants to feel that you care about her feelings, too. You may have stopped viewing but it doesn't mean that the effect of past usage isn't still lingering. Basically, if she has to rely on herself for comfort then you can rely on yourself. Who knows, maybe she isn't LD at all.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Agreed, but getting back to hugs and vulnerability.
> 
> Imagine Doug has been very ill with a high fever, but you have no patience for him being sick and ask him to be self sufficient and keep some distance as to not get you sick. He finally gets better and feels himself again and wants a hug to reconnect with you since it has been a week since you have been in each other's arms due to his illness. You say NO that you do NOT feel like a hug at that moment and he can't force one. This is challenging for Doug to accept because you did not want to be close to him for a week because he was ill, and now that he is better you still do not want a hug.
> 
> Why as a woman would you do this to your husband?


It's in sickness & in health for me. 
I would kindly look after my Mr A & have been doing that. 
And I know for sure, he definitely will do the same for me. 
We're vulnerable when we are ill, it's nice to have some care, empathy & sympathy. 

Going back to hugs, during my emotional turmoils over the years, Mr A's caring hugs have been always healing for me. 
In fact I would go on to say that I don't think I'd be as strong today without those hugs. 

But some people cannot bear to be around sick people, it could be OCD, fear of getting sick themselves etc. 
I know folks that will run a mile at the sound of someone coughing! 
They're definitely not fans of hugs! 






Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> badsanta, you are not going to like what I'm typing (hell I don't even like it) but here goes: Your wife has expressed her feelings regarding your porn use many times. She has had to comfort herself and tolerate it. Porn has an insidious way of affecting all areas of a marriage. You want your wife to give you a hug when you're down and she wants to feel that you care about her feelings, too. You may have stopped viewing but it doesn't mean that the effect of past usage isn't still lingering. Basically, if she has to rely on herself for comfort then you can rely on yourself. Who knows, maybe she isn't LD at all.


I think you make a good point!

I do know that my past porn use in context with her religious views on the topic are indeed problematic and were drawn out over the first decade of our marriage. 

She would fuss at me for porn, and I would fuss at her for making 100 minute phone calls overseas $$$ (day before before Skype) to talk with her mom. We were both fussing at each other's way to self sooth.

So our relationship has evolved with a few scars in this regard.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> *It's in sickness & in health for me.
> I would kindly look after my Mr A & have been doing that. *
> And I know for sure, he definitely will do the same for me.
> We're vulnerable when we are ill, it's nice to have some care, empathy & sympathy.
> ...


Him hugging you, yes that is great and it is indeed healing.

BUT OMG... I say this in the most playful way and I am giggling! Hasn't your mother-in-law been giving you crap about making your husband do chores and work around the house as if you could care less about his severely injured arm? And you brag about him learning to finally help around the house. 

You and my wife are two peas in a pod!

:grin2:

OK @MrsAldi when you break your arm by accident, Mr. A will teach you how to change the tires on the car cause you need to be strong and be able to take care of things, even guy things! I've broken my arm twice. That did not excused me from swapping equipment attached to the power take off on our farm tractor come time to bush hog and clear pastures when I was twelve years old. 



> Go hook that up and get busy in the back pastures before it gets too hot today!


...my mom would say even when I was still wearing a cast on a Saturday morning. 










Badsanta


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Talk about tough love!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> You need to recognize something within yourself that provides the same comfort and reassurance. It is there, you just need to find it.
> 
> With practice, you can locate this at any time and it will always be there, regardless of what she does or does not do.
> 
> ...




And you'll become more self-dependent and isolated and have deep reservoirs of strength in yourself.

You'll achieve distance from your wife (and others too, I would think). You may get to the point where you're on your own little emotional island; needing no-one, connected to no-one.

That's understandable in some situations. I can see that as a form of self-preservation in an intolerable marital situation.

I don't think it's desirable, it's got to be the opposite of intimacy. But, yes, a last stand of self-defense if your spouse is so determined to starve you of emotional sustenance.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> I don't know that it is the male or female viewpoint. It is one male or female viewpoint.
> 
> Remember @notmyrealname4 saying that* a man who would run to the bathroom crying after his wife said a harsh word to him is exactly the kind of man she wants?*
> 
> Completely unappealing to me, but totally appealing to her.


I know I didn't say _that_; you're making it sound like baby boy has a boo-boo on his knee, and he wants mama to kiss it better.

IIRC, my statement (or agreement with someone else's statement), was that if a grown man gets so emotionally broken that he feels he needs to lock himself in a room and weep-----then yes, I would be glad he could release those feelings, and I would want to comfort him. It would be very intense, and I think a lot of intimacy could result from it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I know I didn't say _that_; you're making it sound like baby boy has a boo-boo on his knee, and he wants mama to kiss it better.
> 
> IIRC, my statement (or agreement with someone else's statement), was that if a grown man gets so emotionally broken that he feels he needs to lock himself in a room and weep-----then yes, I would be glad he could release those feelings, and I would want to comfort him. It would be very intense, and I think a lot of intimacy could result from it.


I found our exchange. It was from Thound's_ What does taking charge look like?_ thread here in SIM a few weeks ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jld:

_I do have a reservation about Dr. Glover, though. I think he said once that he ran crying into the bathroom one time because of something his wife said to him. I just don't get that, especially from a psychologist._

Response from notmyrealname4:

_I'd be running after him, massively turned on because of the emotional intensity, and the fact that he could be that vulnerable._



Notmyrealname4, I don't remember what he said it was that made him cry. I think it was some harsh words from his wife. But without rereading it, I can't be sure.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> I found our exchange. It was from Thound's_ What does taking charge look like?_ thread here in SIM a few weeks ago:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by jld:
> ...



Well, as you say Dr. Glover is [obviously] a grown man, does have a Phd, and is a psychologist.

I'm guessing Mrs. Glover said something virulent, if it provoked that type of response in her husband.

I doubt I would ever say something like that to my husband. So, in that way, I don't relate to what Dr. Glover and his wife went through.

Bigger picture: if *something* set my husband off with that amount of emotional intensity; I would be drawn to him at a really deep level.

And you wouldn't feel that way in a similar situation with Dug. Dug would probably never have that level of emotional display---so the point is moot.


And,( as I've seen you say several times); that's great . It's better though, if people_ align_ with each other in this area, when they are married.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> And you wouldn't feel that way in a similar situation with Dug. Dug would probably never have that level of emotional display---so the point is moot.


No, nothing I could say would ever have him off crying in the bathroom, that's for sure! I don't have that kind of power over him. 

And I would not want that power, either. It would feel very strange to me. I would not feel safe with that kind of man. And I would not be able to meet his needs.

_But that is just me!_ Many other women may feel differently, and that is very good! They are meant to be with men that women like me are clearly not meant to be with. 

And that is as it should be. We are not all exactly the same, nor do we need to be.



> And,( as I've seen you say several times); that's great . It's better though, if people_ align_ with each other in this area, when they are married.


I definitely believe it is better, even necessary, that a couple be aligned in their emotional needs and attraction! Either have similar needs, and so naturally understand each other, or have complementary needs, and therefore rather effortlessly meet each other's needs.

Badsanta, wouldn't it be easier to just be straightforward and tell your wife your needs? And if she cannot meet them, to part ways?

Maybe she just needs to hear it straight up, as in, "Wife, when we argue, I need a hug from you to reassure me. I need your love and commitment. A hug from you lets me know I have it."

I think your behavior is saying that already. But some people need it spelled out in words, too, kwim?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Him hugging you, yes that is great and it is indeed healing.
> 
> BUT OMG... I say this in the most playful way and I am giggling! Hasn't your mother-in-law been giving you crap about making your husband do chores and work around the house as if you could care less about his severely injured arm? And you brag about him learning to finally help around the house.
> 
> ...


Hold on now...

You told me to that Mr A wasn't doing enough on my thread! 
Go back and look! 
You called him a Mommy's boy! 

He put a few clothes in the washing machine once. 
And he rinsed a cup. 1 cup. 
He's hardly whipped. 

His mother made me feel bad for that. 
But I showed her, how bad I could actually be! 
During his injury she said "don't grow a beard now" 
I said to Mr A, you know you'd look real sexy with a beard. 
He went home to his mother with the beard, she called him "a ugly mug" he was livid! He didn't speak to her for a while. 
I sent him back to her house & gave him a bunch of yellow roses to give to her, she knows that was me. 
Because he has no clue what flowers his own mother likes! 

Next time I saw her, she said "You're not the worst" 
That's the closest to an apology I'll ever get. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> If you really wanted a hug why didn't you just walk up to her and hug her without saying anything?
> 
> Do you normally verbally check with your wife whether you can touch her in every instance?
> 
> In this instance asking your wife to hug you was just as manipulative as her refusal.


In this case I had done just that, but she was in one of her moods and was being a little cruel to me. She has this thing where she likes to yank the hair out of my back and make me jump/yell. She kept doing that over and over and I told her I needed a real hug. She got upset and withdrew. I insisted as her husband that she should be able to give me a real hug, and then it went downhill from there.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> In this case I had done just that, but she was in one of her moods and was being a little cruel to me. She has this thing where she likes to yank the hair out of my back and make me jump/yell. She kept doing that over and over and I told her I needed a real hug. She got upset and withdrew. I insisted as her husband that she should be able to give me a real hug, and then it went downhill from there.


She is YANKING YOUR BACK HAIR, and your reply is to demand a HUG? Holy Jesus God Almighty. What is wrong with you?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Rowan said:


> I think you've got a near-terminal case of The Shoulds.


Very good point. That is an extremely common cause of difficulty of all kinds, not just marital difficulties.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> She is YANKING YOUR BACK HAIR, and your reply is to demand a HUG? Holy Jesus God Almighty. What is wrong with you?


What is wrong with her? 
She's physically hurting him & enjoying it, laughing at him! @badsanta I think your wife might be into a bit of S&M! 
In particular torturing you, embrace that. Use it to your advantage  






Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MrsAldi said:


> What is wrong with her?
> She's physically hurting him & enjoying it, laughing at him! @badsanta I think your wife might be into a bit of S&M!
> In particular torturing you, embrace that. Use it to your advantage


I've always had that suspicion, but she only gets a kick out of really seeing me squirm from something that is painful. 

When she was young she NEVER got a spanking, but her brothers would get them daily for bothering her. She would also pinch the ever living crap out of them when they made her upset. 

I know how her brothers feel, as many times I have had a bruise underneath the tender part of my arm (near where most people are ticklish) that can be about the size of a quarter or bigger. She will do this NOT in a sexual context, but in the context of something like I just took a pillow she was using even if it was mine in the first place or if I am trying to tickle her feet or something. She will apologize as if it were an accident from her childhood reflexes. It is as if she is being playful but has no concept of where the line is of being way to rough! 

Could this translate into something sexual such as S&M, possibly but I don't think I would enjoy it!

I've often thought she would enjoy using a violet wand on me! 

Badsanta


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MrsAldi said:


> What is wrong with her?
> She's physically hurting him & enjoying it, laughing at him!


No doubt. But she is not posting here.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Poorly handled on both your parts. 3 days of pestering for a hug should be beneath you. OTOH, her saying what she did was needlessly cruel. 


Next time ask for mouth hugs instead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> But from the guy's point of view this is the equivalent of requesting a "cease fire" from an argument, and seeing that your wife has a policy of "take no prisoners" and she will use that white flag to take you down and display her dominance in the relationship!


imagine you are in a duel with your wife and you throw down your gun. 

You now want her to throw her gun down too, but instead she opens fire on you. that is how you feel in this situation.

what you need to see is that you are wearing body armor. so when you throw down your gun, you are really inducing her to empty her clip. she can shoot you and it has no effect.

when she runs out of bullets, you are in complete control. 

you are actually in complete control before the dual even starts, because you know her bullets will have no effect in advance.

she can fire or not fire. either way you are in control.



badsanta said:


> In my opinion it is all about dominance! Asking for a hug and giving a hug in a relationship for someone that wants to dominate the situation is like handing them some grenades to throw at you. They throw them, you get hurt, and then they belittle you that you look angry or unappealing! And as other posters have said, one should NOT be vulnerable. So I have to suck it up and keep it together so that my wife can NOT hurt me!


your advantage is you actually think about this whereas she just reacts.

let her be the one that reacts.

you think.

for her, it is automatic. 

for you, you see everything 1 step ahead. 



badsanta said:


> ...cause you know, building walls so we can't hurt one another is what makes relationships strong. For men I actually agree while this sounds sarcastic, that it is TRUE!!! Men have to be strong and in the heat of a battle we have to stand strong and keep our shît together. Women want a relationship in which they can feel emotionally protected and they never want to see their man in a weakened or vulnerable state OR it makes us as you say "unappealing."
> 
> Tough lesson to learn.
> 
> Some feel "vulnerability" in relationships is what makes us powerful if we can be willing to accept it.


you are not vulnerable _not _because you build walls.

you're not vulnerable because there is nothing she can do that will surprise you.

you are prepared for any outcome in any situation.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

ancient Chinese secret.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> And you'll become more self-dependent and isolated and have deep reservoirs of strength in yourself.
> 
> You'll achieve distance from your wife (and others too, I would think). You may get to the point where you're on your own little emotional island; needing no-one, connected to no-one.
> 
> ...


It's a valid point that you will initially go through a period of withdrawal with this approach.

I do think eventually you come out on the other side when you realize that you have nothing to lose (and maybe nothing to gain).

Connecting with others costs you less and less because you expect less and less.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> She is YANKING YOUR BACK HAIR, and your reply is to demand a HUG? Holy Jesus God Almighty. What is wrong with you?


Him? Maybe we read this differently. He needed a hug, did what Personal suggested and she pulled the hair out of his back. Cruel teasing or whatever, he understood her game. He then asked her to give him a real hug and she became an idiot. I've had my wife do the same when I'm teasing and she is serious. Now, I did the exact opposite of his wife, but I understand why he asked.

I'm not going to set fire to this thread, but I take back teasing and will use malicious behavior instead of another word.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> In this case I had done just that, but she was in one of her moods and was being a little cruel to me. She has this thing where she likes to yank the hair out of my back and make me jump/yell. She kept doing that over and over and I told her I needed a real hug. She got upset and withdrew. I insisted as her husband that she should be able to give me a real hug, and then it went downhill from there.


woa


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Him? Maybe we read this differently. He needed a hug, did what Personal suggested and she pulled the hair out of his back. Cruel teasing or whatever, he understood her game. He then asked her to give him a real hug and she became an idiot.* I've had my wife do the same when I'm teasing and she is serious. Now, I did the exact opposite of his wife, but I understand why he asked.*
> 
> I'm not going to set fire to this thread, but I take back teasing and will use malicious behavior instead of another word.


Interesting point! I've been is silly moods when my wife wants me to be serious. While it is not a hug she is usually after, it is instead for me to rub her back and actually listen to her talk about something that is bothering her. 

ONE TIME I put my foot down and complained that I was tired of her unloading stressful topics on me just before going to bed, and that if she was NOT in the mood for sex that stressing me out and then becoming unavailable was be the typical situation that would make me want to watch porn to numb my mind. ...well THAT did NOT go well!!!!! Holy Cow she has NEVER let me live that one down. I was just trying to be honest, but she tells me I should be able to handle grown up conversations before going to bed. OMG, I made it worse by trying to stand my ground. 

...now if she wants to talk about family drama, credit card bills, budget problems, scheduling conflicts, and tax preparation before going to bed, I listen! She then calms down and goes right to sleep and I go... (well she just will not listen to me!) ...watch the Walking Dead or something to numb my brain to sleep. 

Badsanta


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Interesting point! I've been is silly moods when my wife wants me to be serious. While it is not a hug she is usually after, it is instead for me to rub her back and actually listen to her talk about something that is bothering her.
> 
> ONE TIME I put my foot down and complained that I was tired of her unloading stressful topics on me just before going to bed, and that if she was NOT in the mood for sex that stressing me out and then becoming unavailable was be the typical situation that would make me want to watch porn to numb my mind. ...well THAT did NOT go well!!!!! Holy Cow she has NEVER let me live that one down. I was just trying to be honest, but she tells me I should be able to handle grown up conversations before going to bed. OMG, I made it worse by trying to stand my ground.
> 
> ...


dude--you don't have to do anything for her.

so she wants to vent some BS at you. if you're not up for it, TOO BAD. 

that's her attitude toward you, correct?

if she gets mad about that, that's her issue. you're not making her be angry-- she is making herself angry because she has an unreasonable expectation of you.

you are not an emotional blow up doll that she can just f- whenever she wants.

see how this works?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

While she's talking to you right before bed, listen attentively while rubbing one out in front of her. 

Do not break eye contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

This women is a piece of work.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Is it seriously NOT OK to ask for a hug when you are hurting emotionally and "admit" you need some help to calm down and feel better?
> 
> Badsanta


Rule 1: What was in it for her.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> I think this is a great topic to put out there and applaud your willingness to be honest about how you felt in this situation.
> 
> My personal belief after experiencing the same thing many times is that if you base your emotional stability on what your spouse is willing to do for you, you have no emotional stability.


Exactly - it's not like you're a couple or partners or anything.

Post-her-children time, there's her and her interests, and whatever the crap you're doing.

Look OP you've roomed with this person for a long time now and they're independent, isn't it time you moved out like the other children, give her entirely _her_space_ (ie house and its environs) and got on with your life and stopped expecting her to be there for your needs. 
Yes, she doesn't mind doing some jobs for you, especially stuff that is routine or that is a bit of a habit. Often the house would feel empty so she feels she needs a cat or similar, but you're there for companionship (like a pet) not to be all needy and to want stuff from her - you're a male, you're supposed to have everything and produce on demand like an ATM. Does she ask for things from you that she desires (apart from the stuff you want her to ask which she really does "for you"), no, because really, again, you're not a couple, you just still happen to share a house and that doesn't entitle you to anything - and she doesn't want stuff from you because she doesn't want you to feel entitled or to lead you on/have you get grumpy because you think it entitles to some sort of debt/iou situation.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

IMHO it's fairly dangerous to fail to believe something that is plainly right in front of your face. Kind of like refusing to go to the life boats because you KNOW that the Titanic won't sink. 

Mrs. Nail finally began to believe that I didn't like sleeping with her while I was sexually frustrated. All it took was a few nights sleeping in a different room. Took quite a while for her to figure out what to do about it. Mrs Bad Santa, stlll believes that Bad Santa is just making this up and there is nothing really happening. She needs to wake up alone. IMHO


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Could this translate into something sexual such as S&M, possibly but I don't think I would enjoy it!
> 
> I've often thought she would enjoy using a violet wand on me!
> 
> Badsanta


No she wouldnt because of the connitation. Such a wand is about kink activity focused on you.

Princess, from her childhood, has been in a privileged position and had the ability to be above the discipline and treatment authorities dish out to males. while in some ways this is good that it protects her from other unwanted male attentions, the young mind often allows this to translate the apportionment into a heirarchy of sorts, with those with rights being more entitled and to grow to a higher level of expected living standard than others. A reciprocal effect is noticed when certain children are chosen for extra domestic duties (by gender), or a child is promoted above the others eg in the case of specialist training (eg sports or musical instrument).

Thus causing discomfort to you is a reflection of that upbringing (terribly Freudian i know). And as such what she is doing is about power and dominance in the relationship - so how _DARE_ you attempt the demand to invade her space and seek something from her.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It's curious that people aren't more concerned about the pulling OUT your back hair and pinching you until you bruise. That's physical abuse.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

He plays a lot of games, thinks and works very hard to manipulate his wife into acting in an acceptable way. At the end of the day none of it will work. But he has to suffer through the process. Part of this is a bad case of unwarranted oneitis.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> It's curious that people aren't more concerned about the pulling OUT your back hair and pinching you until you bruise. That's physical abuse.


Oh, it is noted.
If you've seen enough derails, blame shifting, minimization of the acts and anger you tend to send a PM or be subtle.


> *I'm not going to set fire to this thread,* but I take back teasing and will use *malicious behavior instead of another word.*


 Some people do not like to talk about female to Male spousal abuse on TAM.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> He plays a lot of games, thinks and works very hard to manipulate his wife into acting in an acceptable way. At the end of the day none of it will work. But he has to suffer through the process. Part of this is a bad case of unwarranted oneitis.


Look up the movie "Goodbye Lenin". Long time manipulation is possible but puts the relationship in a rather awkward dynamic...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Badsanta, it seems to ME that the hug refusal is secondary to your wife pulling out your back hair. 

Have you considered that a place to start in changing your dynamic could be putting a true stop to her physical harm of you... by letting her know your new boundary on that with a real consequence?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Badsanta, it seems to ME that the hug refusal is secondary to your wife pulling out your back hair.
> 
> Have you considered that a place to start in changing your dynamic could be putting a true stop to her physical harm of you... by letting her know your new boundary on that with a real consequence?


My wife does not yank my back hair that often, and it is just one spot she likes to do it as it makes me jump. I've found that as with many things in a relationship that can be fixed with a common household product, that a little coconut oil will completely solve this problem when and if I need to set that boundary. 

:grin2:

Regarding @phillybeffandswiss comment about female to male abuse, I don't think that applies here. If and when my wife pinches me it is in the context of "playing too rough" and I do not believe there is any malicious intent. 

I'll admit I learned from this thread that my wife is not the only one that believes that a hug should not be forced, and if one is forced that it can be counterproductive towards the dynamics of the relationship if one of the two needs to solve a problem first and THEN hug. 

Badsanta


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> My wife does not yank my back hair that often, and it is just one spot she likes to do it as it makes me jump. I've found that as with many things in a relationship that can be fixed with a common household product, that a little coconut oil will completely solve this problem when and if I need to set that boundary.
> 
> :grin2:
> 
> ...


Very mature post, badsanta.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> you're a male, you're supposed to have everything and produce on demand like an ATM.


I'm going to be a troll in my own thread and apologize, but I can't resist this one!

@spotthedeaddog I know males should have it all and be able to produce on demand like in an ATM scene. Please don't think less of me, but if I were seriously put in front of an entire film crew with bright lights for doing ATM on demand and the director yelled for the action to begin, it would be rather embarrassing! 

I'll admit I'm kind of envious at guys that have the mental stamina to do that. As for me if I am in a public restroom at a urinal and someone walks up next to me, I can't even relax enough to pee and I have to wait and try again. It is really awkward, and I'll just go ahead and preemptively flush to avoid that awkward silence and stand there for a moment as if I was actually able to pee. 

Badsanta


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Well, thanks for addressing my concern with minimization and compartmentalization. It's your life, but If the solution to "playing rough" and bruises is coconut oil not "Cut that sh#T out"....... 

"shrugs" It happens to the point you allow yourself to be manipulated and angry. Call it what you will, but I will not say it is "rough play" at all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

How much back hair are we talking about?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, thanks for addressing my concern with minimization and compartmentalization. It's your life, but If the solution to "playing rough" and bruises is coconut oil not "Cut that sh#T out".......
> 
> "shrugs" It happens to the point you allow yourself to be manipulated and angry. Call it what you will, but I will not say it is "rough play" at all.


QFT


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

john117 said:


> How much back hair are we talking about?


 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> How much back hair are we talking about?


 @john117 I thought you knew I was a cat? Here is me and the wife!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She looks way too homely


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, thanks for addressing my concern with minimization and compartmentalization. It's your life, but* If the solution* to "playing rough" and bruises* is coconut oil *not "Cut that sh#T out".......
> 
> "shrugs" It happens to the point you allow yourself to be manipulated and angry. Call it what you will, but I will not say it is "rough play" at all.


Yep, just some coconut oil and everything will be fine!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

You fluff everything over with humor. Or in your case attempted humor. Is this your way of avoidance?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Yep, just some coconut oil and everything will be fine!


:lol:

Badsanta, you are hilarious!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> You fluff everything over with humor. Or in your case attempted humor. Is this your way of avoidance?


Laughter will always "defuse" a bitter argument. But just for you:











Really? Nothing? Not even a smile?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Laughter will always "defuse" a bitter argument. But just for you:


As with all tools, humor can be used for good or ill. You seem to use it to avoid. That seems like in the "ill" department.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> As with all tools, humor can be used for good or ill. You seem to use it to avoid. That seems like in the "ill" department.


OK... You got me!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> OK... You got me!


See, you are doing it now. I love humor actually despite the fact that I sound like a machine on this forum. It is probably my favorite thing about my husband. (Besides his yummy ****.) You are an interesting cat. You simply do not want to get out of your comfort zone at all.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I'm going to be a troll in my own thread and apologize, but I can't resist this one!
> 
> @spotthedeaddog I know males should have it all and be able to produce on demand like in an ATM scene. Please don't think less of me, but if I were seriously put in front of an entire film crew with bright lights for doing ATM on demand and the director yelled for the action to begin, it would be rather embarrassing!
> 
> ...


Not trolling at imo. That degree of "maleism" is one aspect I'd like to study more !!
It seems very under investigated. Is it some sort of "alpha"-ism, is it intelligence or external vs internal processing, is there a link to common shyness, or inversely connected to autistic traits...

By ATM I don't just mean sexually though. Leadership, finance, patience, energy from the obervations I see a man, especially a husband, is supposed to be this endless magic machine that without personalty or expectation is just supposed to deliver goodies at the push of a button, on demand, everytime. ATM = Automatic Teller Machine, aka "money machine", put in your card, hit numbers, get spending cash, go away and forget about machine.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The back hair pulling really bothers me. Does it bother you? Have you ever asked her to stop?


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Anon1111 said:


> dude--you don't have to do anything for her.
> 
> so she wants to vent some BS at you. if you're not up for it, TOO BAD.
> 
> ...


If he's not there for her, very quickly she'll not be there for him and (eventually) find someone who will be there (or get really mean)


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Livvie said:


> It's curious that people aren't more concerned about the pulling OUT your back hair and pinching you until you bruise. That's physical abuse.


Or, by the limited description of her childhood, socialisation process that she is familiar with between her and male sibs; and thus a degree of domestic dominance.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> The back hair pulling really bothers me. Does it bother you? Have you ever asked her to stop?


It might be a turn on for him. He has explained and encouraged some women here to sexually dominate their husbands. He may enjoy it, too.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It doesn't sound like it was happening in a sexual context. He said it makes him jump.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

badsanta said:


>




Now, THAT'S a cat!!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's a 30+ pounder Maine ****. Ours is in the low 20's after a year and a half.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Livvie said:


> The back hair pulling really bothers me. Does it bother you? Have you ever asked her to stop?





jld said:


> It might be a turn on for him. He has explained and encouraged some women here to sexually dominate their husbands. He may enjoy it, too.





Livvie said:


> It doesn't sound like it was happening in a sexual context. He said it makes him jump.


A few times I have encouraged her to do it because she gets a huge kick out of seeing me jump and it cheers her up instantly. She can be in the grumpiest mood and I'll say, "here yank my back hair" and instantly here eyes will light up and she gets a huge smile and she will give it a good yank. 

Does it do anything for me? It feels like ripping off a bandaid for the most part, so it is not that bad, but it is one of those super quirky things she likes to do to the point that is a huge thrill for her. I don't mind taking one for the team here and there to cheer her up. But the instance that started this thread, I was not in the mood for it as I had recently broken a fever and my back ached. I was in no mood to use humor, so I just asked for a real hug and apparently it made me look too needy and she decided to back off until I got in a better mood.

It has to be a dominance type thing where she enjoys feeling powerful over me in the relationship.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Dude, you are totally whipped. At least you get to pet the kitty on a regular basis. I was whipped and never got to pet the kitty. Now I am independent but I get zero kitty time. Trade off that life offers. I would rather have your choice than mine, but wasn't on offer so I picked from among the available alternatives.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

She gets a thrill out of hurting you. That is sick.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> She gets a thrill out of hurting you. That is sick.


Have you ever played a game of "slaps" with a friend? I would describe it more like that, and it should be OK as long as I want to play AND I get my turn. 










Now when it is my turn, since she does not have any back hair to pull I have my "ways" of making her jump repeatedly! 

That topic aside, there are times when someone is not in the mood to be funny or play games and an argument is setting in, how do you defuse it?

Badsanta


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Sorry Badsanta. Wanting to make each other "jump" is not what most people think of as funny once you get past middle school.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sorry Badsanta. Wanting to make each other "jump" is not what most people think of as funny once you get past middle school.


OMG you sound like a 70-year-old lady!

If you have friends and family with a swimming pool and you want to earn the title of being the coolest aunt ever to live, here is a fun game to play.
*
Extreme staring contest*

_Each player must hold an entire mouth full of soda pop and stare at the other person for as long as possible without laughing!_

Why is the swimming pool needed? Because you need a place to rinse off after the winner gets sprayed all over from the soda pop that will come spraying out of the other person's nose that will laugh so hard you will immediately do the same back to them! 

Funnest game EVER! Because the stakes are high because it is going to hurt when you start laughing!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> OMG you sound like a 70-year-old lady!
> 
> If you have friends and family with a swimming pool and you want to earn the title of being the coolest aunt ever to live, here is a fun game to play.
> *
> ...


I'd rather play Cards Against Humanity. Remind me never to invite you over. You are a child.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I'd rather play Cards Against Humanity. Remind me never to invite you over. You are a child.


I LOVE Cards Against Humanity


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I'd rather play Cards Against Humanity. Remind me never to invite you over. You are a child.


I'd rather play the card game "Exploding Kittens" while I point actual lasers at my opponent's feet.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

....


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> *But a reality check here TAM? "You make me feel like you only care about sex!" Is that a feeling or an accusation?*
> 
> Badsanta


Well I suppose it is both. She is telling you how she feels but at the same time blaming you for how she feels. It is really important to validate her feelings, yet at the same time you cannot 'make' her feel the way she does by being affectionate and playful. I suspect there is some other internal dialogue that is making her feel like she does (unless there is a whole other story that we don't know about). 

I remember a situation with my SIL. Out of the blue she had decided not to invite us to her daughter's birthday party even though the whole family were attending. Having walked on eggshells for the best part of 10 years were she is speaking/not speaking I plucked up the courage to finally ask her if we had offended her in some way. She got really, really angry and raged at me about things that made NO sense whatsoever. When she had finished she looked at me and my stunned expression and said '....and now YOU HAVE MADE ME ANGRY!!!'. It was kind of funny because I just wanted to make things right between us. Now many years have passed and I realise that she has huge self-esteem issues where she lashes out at anyone even hinting that she has done the wrong thing or is inadequate in anyway shape or form (either real or imagined). 

So thinking about your wife's response to your playfulness...maybe it triggers an unhealthy internal dialogue that tells her she is inadequate and not a good wife. Like a child who feels they are going to get into trouble or look bad for some mis-behaviour they blame the person nearest to them. They did it first! They made me do it! As we get older we learn that it rarely turns out well to do this when we feel blamed or shamed (usually resulting in a heated exchange). However, with our spouses, we all at some point revert back to being children in the heat of the moment, looking for someone to blame. 

I think it is far healthier to own our own feelings (and I am giving myself some advice here too). "I feel like when you are playful with me so frequently you are only interested in sex. When I feel like you are only interested in sex I feel defensive and angry.". This is honest communication without accusations but at the same time not invalidating her own feelings and right to say how she feels. 

And of course the same goes for you and your needs. "Sometimes I am afraid of being playful because I feel you will become defensive and angry - how can we move forward?"


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *But a reality check here TAM? "You make me feel like you only care about sex!" Is that a feeling or an accusation?*
> 
> Badsanta


You explained and explained and explained and explained. And did not listen to a single thing she said. Then yelled at her. Way to go.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> So thinking about your wife's response to your playfulness...maybe it triggers an unhealthy internal dialogue...


This makes sense. But I worry about validating her unhealthy internal dialogs. 

For instance she is very self conscious about her gray hair. One day I got frustrated of telling her that it does not bother me, so I started teasing her about it. I told her that I was scared to tell her that her gray hair was making her look really old, that I struggled to find it attractive anymore and that she really should go have color put into it much more often. I mentioned otherwise she her gray hair gave the illusion that even her skin was getting all wrinkled and shriveled up like a little old raison. ...OK, I was waiting for her to get furious and upset... instead it was as if the heavens opened and choirs started singing that I finally understood how she was feeling. She even got happy about it. ....I then got upset with her and gave her a lecture on why her gray hairs were actually attractive to me and that I was just testing her to see how she would react. I told her that when I see her gray hair (not many of them), that I see a mom that cares for and stresses out about raising our kids and a wife that has stood by my side for the test of time. Those things mean a lot to me, and she just wants to cover them up and hide them as if it makes her undesirable. I also told her that it was attractive for her to care about how she looks and I have no problem with her going to a stylist, but she needs to also know that I love her just the way she is. 

Replace gray hair with a challenging libido, and it is the exact same argument. She can't see that I love her exactly the way she is, so instead she blames me for thinking I only care about sex. She is just not confident enough to say that she is not yet aroused and know that I will not push or judge her for that. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> You explained and explained and explained and explained. And did not listen to a single thing she said. Then yelled at her. Way to go.


But @NobodySpecial it gave me the PERFECT opportunity to try out the new hug approach suggested to me by a therapist and it WORKED. 

I'm learnin stuff!!!!! THATS FREAKING AWESOME!!!!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> But @NobodySpecial it gave me the PERFECT opportunity to try out the new hug approach suggested to me by a therapist and it WORKED.
> 
> I'm learnin stuff!!!!! THATS FREAKING AWESOME!!!!


You learned what? A new turn of phrase gets you a hug. You win the Kewpie doll. Your wife still thinks all you want is sex and that you don't listen to her. That's freaking awesome. </sarcasm>


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> You learned what? A new turn of phrase gets you a hug.


A real hug can actually be one of the most challenging things to give someone with sincere emotional intent of conveying love, especially when you are upset. 

So YES! I'm actually very happy with that! 

Not being sarcastic either...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> *Your wife still thinks all you want is sex and that you don't listen to her. That's freaking awesome.*


By the way THANKS for refraining from using the word "feels" and replacing it with "thinks." I respect the fact that she can "think" about things however she wants. Then I'll listen to her point of view and discuss the topic calmly. 

If I were to claim that you make me feel like you will not be my friend just because I have kids, you would probably react strongly to that! If I said that I think you do not want to be my friend just because I have kids, then I am making a statement that the two of us could likely discuss as civilized adults and hear out each other's opinions. 

Had I used the word "feel" it as if I get to claim that you first have to respect and validate how I feel before the conversation will go any further.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@badsanta You were feeling and acting defensive, IMO. And when someone is defensive, it always feels to the other person that the defensive one just isn't listening at all. Because your focus is on defending yourself, that means your focus is not on what the other person is saying.

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-defensiveness/

Your wife clearly feels that you want sex all the time...and for her that is too much of the time. It makes her feel pressured. Whether you are initiating or not, she feels the pressure from your constant wanting. When she tries to tell you this, you get defensive.

But honestly...if you really examine yourself...aren't you being defensive because in your mind you are actually trying NOT to initiate sex all the time or be sexual, so that makes you feel like "WHAT?!?! If you only knew the millions of times I DON'T try for sex even though I wanted to!!!"

And yet, isn't that exactly what she is saying?

You DO always want sex, so don't kid yourself, or her. She knows you do and so do you. I do too, that's how I know and how and why I can relate to you on this subject. You ARE always tamping down your desire for sex, because you know it will be rejected most of the time and because you are TRYING to convey to her that you "don't want sex all the time". But you do want it all the time. You can't fool her, she knows that.

You have done a good job in focusing on your fun masturbation experiments to lessen what she feels is the "burden" on her to provide all the sex you need. But you haven't quite taken that "burden" off of her shoulders. She knows no matter how much sex she has with you, you will want more and more and more.

Again, I'm that way too, so I get it. I'm basically always wanting sex and always thinking of it and that's why I'm not comfortable in a relationship with someone who isn't that way, too. Because it will always boil down to the situation you are describing if one partner wants sex all the time and the other wants sex maybe once a week or two weeks.

You think things like "if she only knew how attractive she is to me and how much I love her and want to be with her". You think she would be flattered "if she only knew". But that isn't what she would feel, because she's not you, she doesn't have a huge sex drive like you do, so she would likely feel exactly as she feels...that you ALWAYS want sex and she wants to just be with you without that huge pressure on her to be sexual all the time....even when you don't think you are pressuring her because you are tamping it down. But you wouldn't have to tamp it down if it wasn't there all the time.

I think the only way you are going to get around this is for you to stop seeing your wife as the object of your sexual affection. Just see yourself and your own body as the object of your sexual affection, period, and see your wife as your wife. I know that sounds counter intuitive because you really ARE always trying to figure out how to get more sex out of her, and if you stop seeing her as the object of your sexual affection then how are you going to get MORE sex? Where are you going to get MORE sex? Again the answer is....from yourself.

In your case, I do believe that if you could truly stop seeing your wife as the object of your sexual affection...she would then stop feeling the pressure to be sexual "all the time" and could access her own desire more often. Maybe never as often as you would want to have sex, but you can fill that gap with your masturbation games.

One word about the games though... I know you do a whole lot of reading and study about sexual topics and trying to find new fun ways to pleasure yourself. But in your case, I honestly don't think this is good for you. I think it keeps pulling you in different directions and indirectly then makes you resent your wife because she is not on board with this stuff. It also makes you envious of those who have the type of sex life you wish you had, and that's not a good thing, either. 

I think you should just focus on your own body and sensation and fitness and health. You should get regular massages (not for sexual reasons, but just because it is good for the body in so many ways). You should exercise daily (this helps release energy that will otherwise feel like pent up sexual energy). You should learn to meditate...and even further, maybe study up about lucid dreaming.

Lucid dreaming is where you know you are dreaming while you are dreaming, and therefore (when you get really good at it) you can control your dreams. If you could do this and get really good at it.....you could literally have sex with your wife in your dreams. Or do anything else you've ever wanted to do for that matter...fly into space, travel the world, sit on a beach in Hawaii, swim and breathe under water...there is literally nothing you can't do in a dream if you are lucid.

The Lucidity Institute: Lucid Dreaming Workshops

If that's too difficult, at least learn to meditate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

.....


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> A real hug can actually be one of the most challenging things to give someone with sincere emotional intent of conveying love, especially when you are upset.
> 
> So YES! I'm actually very happy with that!
> 
> Not being sarcastic either...


It does not sound like she gave it with sincere emotional intent to convey love. She made a snarky comment about it. It sounds like you strung a bunch of words together to get what you wanted. She still sounds like she feels like ****.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It does not sound like she gave it with sincere emotional intent to convey love. She made a snarky comment about it. It sounds like you strung a bunch of words together to get what you wanted. She still sounds like she feels like ****.


It WAS just like a Liam Neeson movie!










Until you have lived this situation and realized that my wife very well can and will take me down hard if she needs to, the fact that she just came to me and actually gave me a hug seems legit! The commit came across as if Liam would have said, "you and your stupid hugs" after deciding not to shoot the other guy in the face.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

My wife said the same thing to me once. I looked at her and said "No that's not all I care about. Sex is easy to get, I can get sex this afternoon by making a phonecall." I told her that I refuse to be in a loveless marriage. Because to me it was about her showing me she loved me. 

Shortly there after we read the 5 love languages. I was extremely let down that it spoke very little about sex. She loved it. Since then she has made a concerted effort to show me love. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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