# Really rough 5 years - wife became rich, powerful, and ego-centric



## cinnabomb

i have other posts in the "considering seperation" forum, but i noticed I was getting really biased responses there, all saying "leave her", "divorce her", etc. so i thought id try here and see what you think. 

i dont want to make this too long, but bottom line in my wife became rich and powerful in a very cuttthroat and insane hollywood industry. she has a whole staff of people that work for her and she is the final say on everything. no one checks her in any way. she began bringing this aggressive and dominant attitude home about 5 years ago. 

its been a brutal ride. im a good and honest and hard working husband that devoted my life to her and giving her everything. we had some wonderful years together. but she changed...drastically. she can no longer handle ANYTHING deemed as "criticism" and i dont mean something like "you look fat", as i would never say that....i mean something like "i feel neglected lately". she loses her temper and yells if you say ANYTHING to her that she doesnt like. she has also started eating poorly, doesnt exercise, and I cant say anything because then she loses it. 

we are seeing a therapist who keeps focusing on our history and parents, etc, and although i think there is value in this, she is never asking the basic question to my wife, which is "do you even love him and care about him." i should mention that i do EVERYTHING for us, work full time, handle finances, bills, house stuff, cleaning, and even cooking dinners. she does not give ONE thing to our relationship. NOT ONE thing to me. she ignores me most days, only talking when she needs something or feels like it, and plays with our baby or puts on her headphones and watches netflix (when she isnt working). she is a good and loving mother, which is wierd, as she has so much compassion for our son, but none for me. 

i dont get it. im tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return. i want to make this work and am trying but she isnt reciprocating. ive told the therapist this but she still focuses on broader and deeper things, rather than saying "hey, what you did when you ignored your husband 10x in one day...that was rude. you have to try to acknowledge him more." I dunno. 

i miss her terribly. i pull up old photos of how humble and sweet and kind and loving and respectful she was and i cry. i cry daily. id give every dollar i have to get back to how she was and how we were. she was so sweet and this awful industry changed her. made her crave power and money and fame and all the fake hollywood BS. she no longer seems to understand that she too must GIVE something to a relationship. 

any advice??


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## TheTruthHurts

That sucks.

Could be as simple as she got respect and power when she stopped worrying what anyone else wanted and just did what she wanted. Therefore learned that listening and considering others is weak and pathetic.

If you show feelings and consider hers maybe you're weak and pathetic.

You could try to stop behaving that way and see what happens. Don't make dinner and instead go out for a bite yourself before she gets home, and have your headphones on when she comes in. Say "oh I grabbed a bite while I was out - go ahead and fix yourself something of you're hungry", smile nicely and go back to listening to your music. When she has a tirade, just listen and say something like "I'm sorry you're upset" and go back to your music. Or "you sound cranky maybe you're just Hungary" and go back to listening.

This is not to be mean - it is to disengage and take accountability for your own needs. And stop worrying so much about hers if she does not actually appreciate it.

Look up the 180. It's normally for affairs but in your case it might be a good reference to see what it looks like to stop being a doormat in her eyes and restore your own self esteem.

If sounds counterintuitive, but spouses often only wake up to their neglect when their partner pulls away and shows how independent and fulfilled the partner can be without them. It shocks them.

Good luck. She doesn't respect you. Regain your self esteem and you may get her to turn around.


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## jld

I guess money can ruin people.

Sorry, OP, I think you need to divorce, too. Just hearing that might change her paradigm.


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## WorkingOnMe

I just read your other thread OP. You don't really sound like you're open to advice. So anyway, good luck to you. When the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving, you'll leave.


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## the guy

I think you need to grab her and put her over your knee. How it pans out from there is up to her.....and in the end, her reaction will validate your next move.

For example...going to jail will suck and on the other side of the coin her asking for harder spankings would be great for your ego.....either way, the way your old lady reacts will define your position.


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## Lostme

If you were to look into getting a new therapist, would your wife agree to go? Does not sound like the one you have is helping your marriage at all. Have you sought IC for yourself to get some advice on how to get wife to understand your needs in the marriage and that you are not one of her employee's? 

I'm sure you love your wife and family, but you need to feel loved and wanted to. Maybe write your wife a letter about how she makes you feel, a lot of times people will read what someone has to say before they will listen. Put it in a place where she is not busy doing work stuff, like the bathroom before she takes a shower, in her vehicle etc.


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## jorgegene

Id leave if I could afford it. You dont even have to divorce her if you dont plan on pursuing another relationship. Id just get the heck out of there.

who needs that?!!


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## john117

Money tends to get into people's heads. And it's very difficult to extricate.


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## MEM2020

Chunder,

You've never mentioned a prenup. I assume you don't have one. Therefore you are leaving out what you ARE getting from this marriage: Half the assets which come almost entirely from her income. And even if you do have a prenup, it vests in five more year$. 

Every month you remain in this marriage significantly ups your net worth. 

So here's my advice in two parts:
1. Be hone$t about why you are $taying. 
2. Be honest about what you really want from TAM. Because it isn't advice. It's sympathy. When folks have suggested that you simply adopt a firm, assertive posture towards your wife you have attacked them and said she will just get more aggressive. Now in a normal marriage that would be ok. You'd $tand up for your$elf and she would either come round or divorce you. But in thi$ marriage, that $trategy could end up co$ting you $ome big buck$.

I al$o lined up the dates on this relationship. Quite a coincidence that you married her after dating for 5 years - just as her career was taking off. Not $aying you didn't love her. Just that - it's quite a coincidence.... 


QUOTE=chunderbunder;13869418]i have other posts in the "considering seperation" forum, but i noticed I was getting really biased responses there, all saying "leave her", "divorce her", etc. so i thought id try here and see what you think. 

i dont want to make this too long, but bottom line in my wife became rich and powerful in a very cuttthroat and insane hollywood industry. she has a whole staff of people that work for her and she is the final say on everything. no one checks her in any way. she began bringing this aggressive and dominant attitude home about 5 years ago. 

its been a brutal ride. im a good and honest and hard working husband that devoted my life to her and giving her everything. we had some wonderful years together. but she changed...drastically. she can no longer handle ANYTHING deemed as "criticism" and i dont mean something like "you look fat", as i would never say that....i mean something like "i feel neglected lately". she loses her temper and yells if you say ANYTHING to her that she doesnt like. she has also started eating poorly, doesnt exercise, and I cant say anything because then she loses it. 

we are seeing a therapist who keeps focusing on our history and parents, etc, and although i think there is value in this, she is never asking the basic question to my wife, which is "do you even love him and care about him." i should mention that i do EVERYTHING for us, work full time, handle finances, bills, house stuff, cleaning, and even cooking dinners. she does not give ONE thing to our relationship. NOT ONE thing to me. she ignores me most days, only talking when she needs something or feels like it, and plays with our baby or puts on her headphones and watches netflix (when she isnt working). she is a good and loving mother, which is wierd, as she has so much compassion for our son, but none for me. 

i dont get it. im tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return. i want to make this work and am trying but she isnt reciprocating. ive told the therapist this but she still focuses on broader and deeper things, rather than saying "hey, what you did when you ignored your husband 10x in one day...that was rude. you have to try to acknowledge him more." I dunno. 

i miss her terribly. i pull up old photos of how humble and sweet and kind and loving and respectful she was and i cry. i cry daily. id give every dollar i have to get back to how she was and how we were. she was so sweet and this awful industry changed her. made her crave power and money and fame and all the fake hollywood BS. she no longer seems to understand that she too must GIVE something to a relationship. 

any advice??[/QUOTE]


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## Idun

She has lost respect for you, that's why she is treating you this way. 

Whether we like it or not, we (women) are kind of programmed to desire Alpha type males that are powerful, good providers, and garner the respect of others. The Beta males get used and disrespected (and no sex or appreciation).

Men (it seems) generally don't seem to know how to stand up for themselves to their women/wives, when they're being disrespected. And every time we get away with disrespecting you, we lose a little more respect _for you_. A man can seem Alpha at the start of the relationship when both people are on their best behaviour (the woman acts ultra feminine because of hormones and to seduce, and the man more masculine). The man can end up Beta after a few years when the whirlwind dies down - mundane stressors weigh on the relationship and each person stops being on their 'best behaviour'. 

Not only does she have more power than you, and more money than you, but you're taking up all the nurturing duties at home. She's become more masculine and you've become (it sounds) feminized to balance things out. I personally really believe in balance, it seems the more masculine one partner is the more feminine the other becomes, to always have a balance. This can change very quickly, several times in a day. 

It's good for her to be assertive, determined, 'no bull$hit' at work - depending on that environment. But no matter how much of a lioness a woman is out in the world (and when it comes to her kids  ) - when it comes to her husband she should know how to be a kitten and switch off the domineering side (there's nothing better!). 

But something has to trigger this. You - in your current doormat state - keep her in her high powered state. There's nothing to trigger her to switch out of that mode. 

If you don't want to abandon things, I would consider the Married Man Sex Life resources Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

Also this book and similar types of books No More Mr Nice Guy: Robert A. Glover: 9780762415335: Amazon.com: Books

Reinvent yourself to be the pure masculine man she desires and will respect and admire, instead of a whinging servant. NO amount of talking or counselling will make a difference until she respects you again. Unless you man up. You are being way too NICE to her, and taking every hit with your eyes to the floor. Just hoping she will start looking your way or show any interest (turn off, much?).

You work full time? She works too, making plenty of money you say - well you can afford to pay for a cleaner, other in-house help - if she's too busy to lift a finger. This is HUGE. She sees you - willing to do all the cooking, cleaning, (laundry? shopping? ) as well as work full time, AND put up with her behaviour - she sees someone who doesn't respect HIMSELF. So why should she respect you? And don't ask about getting a maid/cook, just bloody do it. If she has anything to say, just state matter of factly that you're not prepared to do more than half the housework anymore as you work enough (or maybe you should do less than half - depending on how many hours a week she works??? If she does half the hours you do, she should do 75% of the chores... if my maths is right).

Do you see where I'm coming from??


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## turnera

You don't need marriage counseling. You need individual counseling so that you can learn to respect yourself. And value yourself enough to call her out on her shyte when she throws it at you. Strong men don't accept crap like that. You need to figure out why you can't be strong around her. Once you fix THAT, it's a fair bet she'll be attracted to you again.


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## BetrayedDad

Idun said:


> She has lost respect for you, that's why she is treating you this way.
> 
> Whether we like it or not, we (women) are kind of programmed to desire Alpha type males that are powerful, good providers, and garner the respect of others. The Beta males get used and disrespected (and no sex or appreciation).
> 
> Men (it seems) generally don't seem to know how to stand up for themselves to their women/wives, when they're being disrespected. And every time we get away with disrespecting you, we lose a little more respect _for you_. A man can seem Alpha at the start of the relationship when both people are on their best behaviour (the woman acts ultra feminine because of hormones and to seduce, and the man more masculine). The man can end up Beta after a few years when the whirlwind dies down - mundane stressors weigh on the relationship and each person stops being on their 'best behaviour'.
> 
> Not only does she have more power than you, and more money than you, but you're taking up all the nurturing duties at home. She's become more masculine and you've become (it sounds) feminized to balance things out. I personally really believe in balance, it seems the more masculine one partner is the more feminine the other becomes, to always have a balance. This can change very quickly, several times in a day.
> 
> It's good for her to be assertive, determined, 'no bull$hit' at work - depending on that environment. But no matter how much of a lioness a woman is out in the world (and when it comes to her kids  ) - when it comes to her husband she should know how to be a kitten and switch off the domineering side (there's nothing better!).


QFT.... Couldn't agree more. Refreshing to hear it from the female perspective.

@chunderbunder - You have TWO options to fix this.

1) Divorce her - should be your first choice but you seem reluctant to consider this, fine then;

2) Man up - Stop being a beta doormat and grow a pair. Stand up to her or be her b!tch. Prison rules are in play at your house.

Take your pick. If you don't have the stomach for 2) then 1)... If you choose neither then continue to cry yourself to sleep every night. You need to do SOMETHING DRASTIC to fix this. No MC is going to make her see that she's being a "meanie" to you. 

Consider, she probably got to where she is by bus tossing a lot of people. Now you're just another worm to her. She needs to see you are not someone to be trifled with. That's how you start to scrap together some respect back. She's not your boss. Make her aware of that.

EDIT: I just read your other thread... Strongly consider the possibility she's fvcking this "Hollywood agent business partner" she works with. The relationship sounds inappropriate.


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## bfree

OP, have you asked your wife why she's still married to you? If so what was her answer? If not, why not?


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## Learning2Fly

OP, I have just read your other thread, from June of 2014 and it sounds like NOTHING HAS CHANGED in the last year and 4 months. Seriously, how can you keep going like this? A part of me wants to think that you are just making this all up based on how little amount of progress you have made. This all is a joke, right? I hope you are in individual therapy because you need to work out some serious self esteem issues. You have lived like this for waaaaaay to long. At this point, it is what it is. You are just taking it and getting thru life on memories of a different time. 

I hope your story is true for the sake of the amount of energy and time some of the members have given you here. I just can't believe that you continue to live like this with no positive changes made.


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## Thor

turnera said:


> You don't need marriage counseling. You need individual counseling so that you can learn to respect yourself. And value yourself enough to call her out on her shyte when she throws it at you. Strong men don't accept crap like that. You need to figure out why you can't be strong around her. Once you fix THAT, it's a fair bet she'll be attracted to you again.


I agree, except for the last sentence. While she may gain attraction to you, the reason for you to work on yourself is for *you*, not to elicit her attraction.

I highly recommend the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover. Also the support forums at nomoremrniceguy.com/forums. There are a ton of things you can do to become the authentic man you really are inside. A lot of your distress is because you can't be your real self.

Also read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty". It is far more than what the title suggests. Just read it!

The only way to save this marriage is for you to be willing to end it. I don't think you are ready for that today, but you will be soon. The magic, though, is that this is the only way to save this marriage.

It is said the person who cares least about the relationship has all the power. Right now your wife knows you really really care, which gives her all the power. Once you show her you are willing to end the marriage if it doesn't become a good marriage for you, she loses the power to dictate the quality of the relationship.

Think of it like this. Right now she only has to do D- work to keep you. She has to do just enough that you don't give up. But if you say confidently that things are already bad enough that you cannot stay, she has to step up and do A+ work to convince you to turn around and stay.

Telling her things are no longer acceptable is not the same as saying you don't want to be married to her. You are just saying that you can't stay as things are currently, but if things change then you prefer to stay.

You have enough money to afford hired help. At least get a housekeeper in a couple of times each week. Hire a chef for a few nights each week, or do takeout. If you don't do takeout, cook something really simple for dinner like pancakes or hamburgers. Hire someone to take care of the lawn.

Stop doing your wife's laundry. If you're working full time there is no reason for you to be doing more than half the housework. Use a laundry service if needed.


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## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Chunder,
> 
> You've never mentioned a prenup. I assume you don't have one. Therefore you are leaving out what you ARE getting from this marriage: Half the assets which come almost entirely from her income. And even if you do have a prenup, it vests in five more year$.
> 
> Every month you remain in this marriage significantly ups your net worth.
> 
> So here's my advice in two parts:
> 1. Be hone$t about why you are $taying.
> 2. Be honest about what you really want from TAM. Because it isn't advice. It's sympathy. When folks have suggested that you simply adopt a firm, assertive posture towards your wife you have attacked them and said she will just get more aggressive. Now in a normal marriage that would be ok. You'd $tand up for your$elf and she would either come round or divorce you. But in thi$ marriage, that $trategy could end up co$ting you $ome big buck$.
> 
> I al$o lined up the dates on this relationship. Quite a coincidence that you married her after dating for 5 years - just as her career was taking off. Not $aying you didn't love her. Just that - it's quite a coincidence....
> 
> 
> QUOTE=chunderbunder;13869418]i have other posts in the "considering seperation" forum, but i noticed I was getting really biased responses there, all saying "leave her", "divorce her", etc. so i thought id try here and see what you think.
> 
> i dont want to make this too long, but bottom line in my wife became rich and powerful in a very cuttthroat and insane hollywood industry. she has a whole staff of people that work for her and she is the final say on everything. no one checks her in any way. she began bringing this aggressive and dominant attitude home about 5 years ago.
> 
> its been a brutal ride. im a good and honest and hard working husband that devoted my life to her and giving her everything. we had some wonderful years together. but she changed...drastically. she can no longer handle ANYTHING deemed as "criticism" and i dont mean something like "you look fat", as i would never say that....i mean something like "i feel neglected lately". she loses her temper and yells if you say ANYTHING to her that she doesnt like. she has also started eating poorly, doesnt exercise, and I cant say anything because then she loses it.
> 
> we are seeing a therapist who keeps focusing on our history and parents, etc, and although i think there is value in this, she is never asking the basic question to my wife, which is "do you even love him and care about him." i should mention that i do EVERYTHING for us, work full time, handle finances, bills, house stuff, cleaning, and even cooking dinners. she does not give ONE thing to our relationship. NOT ONE thing to me. she ignores me most days, only talking when she needs something or feels like it, and plays with our baby or puts on her headphones and watches netflix (when she isnt working). she is a good and loving mother, which is wierd, as she has so much compassion for our son, but none for me.
> 
> i dont get it. im tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return. i want to make this work and am trying but she isnt reciprocating. ive told the therapist this but she still focuses on broader and deeper things, rather than saying "hey, what you did when you ignored your husband 10x in one day...that was rude. you have to try to acknowledge him more." I dunno.
> 
> i miss her terribly. i pull up old photos of how humble and sweet and kind and loving and respectful she was and i cry. i cry daily. id give every dollar i have to get back to how she was and how we were. she was so sweet and this awful industry changed her. made her crave power and money and fame and all the fake hollywood BS. she no longer seems to understand that she too must GIVE something to a relationship.
> 
> any advice??


[/QUOTE]
Can someone please teach me how to read between the lines?


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## turnera

Thor said:


> I agree, except for the last sentence. While she may gain attraction to you, the reason for you to work on yourself is for *you*, not to elicit her attraction.


Thor, shhhh. It's a secret, he just isn't in on it. The IC is going to help him find SOME sense of self worth. And if he ever reaches THAT point, he won't care if she's attracted. But right now, that's all he cares about and he won't do anything just for himself. Right now, all he cares about is getting her to care about him.


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## nirvana

Idun said:


> She has lost respect for you, that's why she is treating you this way.
> 
> Whether we like it or not, we (women) are kind of programmed to desire Alpha type males that are powerful, good providers, and garner the respect of others. The Beta males get used and disrespected (and no sex or appreciation).
> 
> Men (it seems) generally don't seem to know how to stand up for themselves to their women/wives, when they're being disrespected. And every time we get away with disrespecting you, we lose a little more respect _for you_. A man can seem Alpha at the start of the relationship when both people are on their best behaviour (the woman acts ultra feminine because of hormones and to seduce, and the man more masculine). The man can end up Beta after a few years when the whirlwind dies down - mundane stressors weigh on the relationship and each person stops being on their 'best behaviour'.
> 
> Not only does she have more power than you, and more money than you, but you're taking up all the nurturing duties at home. She's become more masculine and you've become (it sounds) feminized to balance things out. I personally really believe in balance, it seems the more masculine one partner is the more feminine the other becomes, to always have a balance. This can change very quickly, several times in a day.
> 
> It's good for her to be assertive, determined, 'no bull$hit' at work - depending on that environment. But no matter how much of a lioness a woman is out in the world (and when it comes to her kids  ) - when it comes to her husband she should know how to be a kitten and switch off the domineering side (there's nothing better!).
> 
> But something has to trigger this. You - in your current doormat state - keep her in her high powered state. There's nothing to trigger her to switch out of that mode.
> 
> If you don't want to abandon things, I would consider the Married Man Sex Life resources Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.
> 
> Also this book and similar types of books No More Mr Nice Guy: Robert A. Glover: 9780762415335: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Reinvent yourself to be the pure masculine man she desires and will respect and admire, instead of a whinging servant. NO amount of talking or counselling will make a difference until she respects you again. Unless you man up. You are being way too NICE to her, and taking every hit with your eyes to the floor. Just hoping she will start looking your way or show any interest (turn off, much?).
> 
> You work full time? She works too, making plenty of money you say - well you can afford to pay for a cleaner, other in-house help - if she's too busy to lift a finger. This is HUGE. She sees you - willing to do all the cooking, cleaning, (laundry? shopping? ) as well as work full time, AND put up with her behaviour - she sees someone who doesn't respect HIMSELF. So why should she respect you? And don't ask about getting a maid/cook, just bloody do it. If she has anything to say, just state matter of factly that you're not prepared to do more than half the housework anymore as you work enough (or maybe you should do less than half - depending on how many hours a week she works??? If she does half the hours you do, she should do 75% of the chores... if my maths is right).
> 
> Do you see where I'm coming from??


Wow!! One of the best posts I have seen on TAM. Very well explained.
A silver star for you!!


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## Idun

Thanks  Unfortunately after reading OP's other thread I feel he's in the totally wrong place. It sounds like she is downright abusive, to me. And he is so beaten down and afraid of her, he's not able to change himself to better the relationship and put her in her place (i.e. acting like a real wife). 

OP - you need individual counselling, and to 'find yourself' as a man again. If you stay the way you are and accept her behaviour, she will NEVER change. She has no reason to change - you think she loves you deep down and will start being nice because it's the "right thing" to do? But this has never happened and now with the baby you see how it's gone the opposite way. She is worse than ever. 

Plus she will more than likely (if she hasn't already) have an affair with a man she does respect. If you believe you "can't" leave her because of X and Y - you should read this book Amazon.com: How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World eBook: Harry Browne: Books

You're here because you want happiness in your relationship, you think if she goes back to the way she was you'll have that happiness. But everyone here is telling you in order for it to happen - YOU will have to gain back her respect by manning up. You've said in so many ways you're unable to do it. You don't even want to tell her not to yell at you. So here's the truth - things will only get worse for this relationship. Worse for you. You're staying for the wrong reasons and setting a VERY bad example for your daughter.


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## arbitrator

*All that you really need do is to read my original thread below to learn all about the habits and eccentricities of the rich, the powerful, and the "skanky!" Yes, money is absolutely no guarantee that she isn't a social skank!

Are you not proof positive that she's not playing around on the side while leaving you in the veritable lurch? You are her meal ticket and until either her conscience starts hurting her or she just ol' plain gets tired of you, things are most unlikely to demonstrably change!

Bone up on Dr. Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy" to fully assert yourself! I have my concerns that there is the possibility that there is someone else who is covertly taking care of her other "biological needs" all while you have been relegated as little more than her chief "Step and Fetch It!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

File for divorce. It doesn't mean you have to go through with it, but it just may wake her up. 

I have a feeling you've been given this advice before, though.


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## Omego

Idun said:


> She has lost respect for you, that's why she is treating you this way.
> 
> Whether we like it or not, we (women) are kind of programmed to desire Alpha type males that are powerful, good providers, and garner the respect of others. The Beta males get used and disrespected (and no sex or appreciation).


This is 200% correct. I see it everyday. I'm glad IDUN took the initiative to post this. A universal truth.


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## cinnabomb

im sorry but you are off by a lot. first off i dont care about money. she can take it all i dont give a ****. ive made 6 figures for 15 years and still dont care about it. i live extremely frugaly and would take love and happiness over material things. secondly iv given nothing but unconditional love since we met 10+ years ago. we waited to marry because we met in school. im trying to get advice to make it work not simply walk away from the woman of my dreams and my beautiful baby and all our decade+ long memories. i miss her terrible. so much my heart physically aches. i see her in my visions, in my dreams, smiling, dancing, laughing, and looking at me with pure love and saying "will you always love me like this?" i miss her terribly. the woman i see today is a different human and it breaks my heart. i still believe she is in there somewhere. i know it. but something drastic has to change. can i give an ultimatum to leave her business and partner? he is the devil and he turned her into this person. i hate him. 



MEM11363 said:


> Chunder,
> 
> You've never mentioned a prenup. I assume you don't have one. Therefore you are leaving out what you ARE getting from this marriage: Half the assets which come almost entirely from her income. And even if you do have a prenup, it vests in five more year$.
> 
> Every month you remain in this marriage significantly ups your net worth.
> 
> So here's my advice in two parts:
> 1. Be hone$t about why you are $taying.
> 2. Be honest about what you really want from TAM. Because it isn't advice. It's sympathy. When folks have suggested that you simply adopt a firm, assertive posture towards your wife you have attacked them and said she will just get more aggressive. Now in a normal marriage that would be ok. You'd $tand up for your$elf and she would either come round or divorce you. But in thi$ marriage, that $trategy could end up co$ting you $ome big buck$.
> 
> I al$o lined up the dates on this relationship. Quite a coincidence that you married her after dating for 5 years - just as her career was taking off. Not $aying you didn't love her. Just that - it's quite a coincidence....
> 
> 
> QUOTE=chunderbunder;13869418]i have other posts in the "considering seperation" forum, but i noticed I was getting really biased responses there, all saying "leave her", "divorce her", etc. so i thought id try here and see what you think.
> 
> i dont want to make this too long, but bottom line in my wife became rich and powerful in a very cuttthroat and insane hollywood industry. she has a whole staff of people that work for her and she is the final say on everything. no one checks her in any way. she began bringing this aggressive and dominant attitude home about 5 years ago.
> 
> its been a brutal ride. im a good and honest and hard working husband that devoted my life to her and giving her everything. we had some wonderful years together. but she changed...drastically. she can no longer handle ANYTHING deemed as "criticism" and i dont mean something like "you look fat", as i would never say that....i mean something like "i feel neglected lately". she loses her temper and yells if you say ANYTHING to her that she doesnt like. she has also started eating poorly, doesnt exercise, and I cant say anything because then she loses it.
> 
> we are seeing a therapist who keeps focusing on our history and parents, etc, and although i think there is value in this, she is never asking the basic question to my wife, which is "do you even love him and care about him." i should mention that i do EVERYTHING for us, work full time, handle finances, bills, house stuff, cleaning, and even cooking dinners. she does not give ONE thing to our relationship. NOT ONE thing to me. she ignores me most days, only talking when she needs something or feels like it, and plays with our baby or puts on her headphones and watches netflix (when she isnt working). she is a good and loving mother, which is wierd, as she has so much compassion for our son, but none for me.
> 
> i dont get it. im tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return. i want to make this work and am trying but she isnt reciprocating. ive told the therapist this but she still focuses on broader and deeper things, rather than saying "hey, what you did when you ignored your husband 10x in one day...that was rude. you have to try to acknowledge him more." I dunno.
> 
> i miss her terribly. i pull up old photos of how humble and sweet and kind and loving and respectful she was and i cry. i cry daily. id give every dollar i have to get back to how she was and how we were. she was so sweet and this awful industry changed her. made her crave power and money and fame and all the fake hollywood BS. she no longer seems to understand that she too must GIVE something to a relationship.
> 
> any advice??


[/QUOTE]


----------



## cinnabomb

this is really helpful. i read dr glovers book and it hit the nail on the head. im actually in IC also, but i still dont fully understand HOW to "man up". i wish people would give more real life examples. 

for example...one big issue in the last couple years is she has thrown diet and exercise out the window. she was always healthy and slim, and in 2 years, has gained about 20 pounds, which is a lot for her size (20%). she doesnt even seem to care, eating carbs and sugar for every single meal. this is half the reason i cook for her, to give her healthy food. if i didnt cook, she doesnt actually give a chit, she will jsut eat 3 bowls of cereal and get fatter. it sucks because i see her becoming her mom, who is so obese and not attractive, and the more unhealthy she is, the more it pushes me away. how do i deal with this???

another bigger issue, which includes the above, is that she just cant handle criticism of ANY kind. like "honey i keep trying to talk to you but you keep ignoring me". she will just snap at me for saying anything like that. her not being able to handle any criticism/input/etc, makes our relationship doomed. and because i fear blowups, i no longer say anything. i jsut live in awful resentment of her. what do i do????




Idun said:


> She has lost respect for you, that's why she is treating you this way.
> 
> Whether we like it or not, we (women) are kind of programmed to desire Alpha type males that are powerful, good providers, and garner the respect of others. The Beta males get used and disrespected (and no sex or appreciation).
> 
> Men (it seems) generally don't seem to know how to stand up for themselves to their women/wives, when they're being disrespected. And every time we get away with disrespecting you, we lose a little more respect _for you_. A man can seem Alpha at the start of the relationship when both people are on their best behaviour (the woman acts ultra feminine because of hormones and to seduce, and the man more masculine). The man can end up Beta after a few years when the whirlwind dies down - mundane stressors weigh on the relationship and each person stops being on their 'best behaviour'.
> 
> Not only does she have more power than you, and more money than you, but you're taking up all the nurturing duties at home. She's become more masculine and you've become (it sounds) feminized to balance things out. I personally really believe in balance, it seems the more masculine one partner is the more feminine the other becomes, to always have a balance. This can change very quickly, several times in a day.
> 
> It's good for her to be assertive, determined, 'no bull$hit' at work - depending on that environment. But no matter how much of a lioness a woman is out in the world (and when it comes to her kids  ) - when it comes to her husband she should know how to be a kitten and switch off the domineering side (there's nothing better!).
> 
> But something has to trigger this. You - in your current doormat state - keep her in her high powered state. There's nothing to trigger her to switch out of that mode.
> 
> If you don't want to abandon things, I would consider the Married Man Sex Life resources Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.
> 
> Also this book and similar types of books No More Mr Nice Guy: Robert A. Glover: 9780762415335: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Reinvent yourself to be the pure masculine man she desires and will respect and admire, instead of a whinging servant. NO amount of talking or counselling will make a difference until she respects you again. Unless you man up. You are being way too NICE to her, and taking every hit with your eyes to the floor. Just hoping she will start looking your way or show any interest (turn off, much?).
> 
> You work full time? She works too, making plenty of money you say - well you can afford to pay for a cleaner, other in-house help - if she's too busy to lift a finger. This is HUGE. She sees you - willing to do all the cooking, cleaning, (laundry? shopping? ) as well as work full time, AND put up with her behaviour - she sees someone who doesn't respect HIMSELF. So why should she respect you? And don't ask about getting a maid/cook, just bloody do it. If she has anything to say, just state matter of factly that you're not prepared to do more than half the housework anymore as you work enough (or maybe you should do less than half - depending on how many hours a week she works??? If she does half the hours you do, she should do 75% of the chores... if my maths is right).
> 
> Do you see where I'm coming from??


----------



## cinnabomb

the odd thing is she still says the words i love you to me all the time. more than i do, in fact. but i dont know if she truly understands the meaning. but then again, in her eyes, i take care of everything and ask of nothing from her, so whats not to love? also, im a great father and she loves that part of me and wants me in our kids life. 




bfree said:


> OP, have you asked your wife why she's still married to you? If so what was her answer? If not, why not?


----------



## cinnabomb

its very real and very brutal. its not that NOTHING has changed. this MC has helped her deal with her anger issues better, but at the end of the day, my wife still cant seem to handle any form of criticism or input or complaint, and still isnt GIVING me anything i need. she has developed these annoying habits (talking with mouth full of food, etc), but i cant even ask her in a nice way to not do it because she cant handle criticism. and its getting worse because i dont say anything, which further pushes me away. 




Learning2Fly said:


> OP, I have just read your other thread, from June of 2014 and it sounds like NOTHING HAS CHANGED in the last year and 4 months. Seriously, how can you keep going like this? A part of me wants to think that you are just making this all up based on how little amount of progress you have made. This all is a joke, right? I hope you are in individual therapy because you need to work out some serious self esteem issues. You have lived like this for waaaaaay to long. At this point, it is what it is. You are just taking it and getting thru life on memories of a different time.
> 
> I hope your story is true for the sake of the amount of energy and time some of the members have given you here. I just can't believe that you continue to live like this with no positive changes made.


----------



## cinnabomb

super useful advice. thank you for this!




Thor said:


> I agree, except for the last sentence. While she may gain attraction to you, the reason for you to work on yourself is for *you*, not to elicit her attraction.
> 
> I highly recommend the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover. Also the support forums at nomoremrniceguy.com/forums. There are a ton of things you can do to become the authentic man you really are inside. A lot of your distress is because you can't be your real self.
> 
> Also read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty". It is far more than what the title suggests. Just read it!
> 
> The only way to save this marriage is for you to be willing to end it. I don't think you are ready for that today, but you will be soon. The magic, though, is that this is the only way to save this marriage.
> 
> It is said the person who cares least about the relationship has all the power. Right now your wife knows you really really care, which gives her all the power. Once you show her you are willing to end the marriage if it doesn't become a good marriage for you, she loses the power to dictate the quality of the relationship.
> 
> Think of it like this. Right now she only has to do D- work to keep you. She has to do just enough that you don't give up. But if you say confidently that things are already bad enough that you cannot stay, she has to step up and do A+ work to convince you to turn around and stay.
> 
> Telling her things are no longer acceptable is not the same as saying you don't want to be married to her. You are just saying that you can't stay as things are currently, but if things change then you prefer to stay.
> 
> You have enough money to afford hired help. At least get a housekeeper in a couple of times each week. Hire a chef for a few nights each week, or do takeout. If you don't do takeout, cook something really simple for dinner like pancakes or hamburgers. Hire someone to take care of the lawn.
> 
> Stop doing your wife's laundry. If you're working full time there is no reason for you to be doing more than half the housework. Use a laundry service if needed.


----------



## Marc878

I got an idea! 

Wipe the tears off your cheeks, blow your nose and become a man.

Do what you want for a change.


----------



## MattMatt

She might be mentally ill. Have you considered that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> im sorry but you are off by a lot. first off i dont care about money. she can take it all i dont give a ****. ive made 6 figures for 15 years and still dont care about it. i live extremely frugaly and would take love and happiness over material things. secondly iv given nothing but unconditional love since we met 10+ years ago. we waited to marry because we met in school. im trying to get advice to make it work not simply walk away from the woman of my dreams and my beautiful baby and all our decade+ long memories. i miss her terrible. so much my heart physically aches. i see her in my visions, in my dreams, smiling, dancing, laughing, and looking at me with pure love and saying "will you always love me like this?" i miss her terribly. the woman i see today is a different human and it breaks my heart. i still believe she is in there somewhere. i know it. but something drastic has to change. can i give an ultimatum to leave her business and partner? he is the devil and he turned her into this person. i hate him.


[/QUOTE]

You can give her an ultimatum but you have to be prepared to walk away if she calls your bluff. Otherwise, you will just have solidified yourself as [email protected], in her eyes. You must learn to be firm with and not afraid of her. You've let her walk all over you for so long that she knows just what to say and how to act to get you to drop something. You have taught over the years how to treat you and what you will allow, now you have to teach her new ways to treat you. It will not work unless you find your balls and are willing to lose her. If she screams at you over being criticized, put your shoes on and walk out the door. Tell her you will not talk to her until she can have a civil conversation. Do not respond and remain calm when she gets emotional and loud. She is doing it to either get a rise out of you or to make you shut up, don't give her what she wants.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

"leave her", "divorce her", etc.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> iv given nothing but unconditional love since we met 10+ years ago.


This is why your marriage is failing. There is no place for unconditional love in a marriage. For kids, of course. For a partner? No. Each is free to walk away at any moment, and often do. You must each EARN the other in your life, all the time. You taught her that she could do anything and you would never leave, never exert consequences, never do anything. Women HATE that. They hate weak men who are so desperate to stay married that they accept horrible behavior or being ignored. And the more you accept it, the more they hate you for accepting it.

Until YOU realize you deserve better, she will never consider giving better.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> this is really helpful. i read dr glovers book and it hit the nail on the head. im actually in IC also, but i still dont fully understand HOW to "man up". i wish people would give more real life examples.
> 
> for example...one big issue in the last couple years is she has thrown diet and exercise out the window. she was always healthy and slim, and in 2 years, has gained about 20 pounds, which is a lot for her size (20%). she doesnt even seem to care, eating carbs and sugar for every single meal. this is half the reason i cook for her, to give her healthy food. if i didnt cook, she doesnt actually give a chit, she will jsut eat 3 bowls of cereal and get fatter. it sucks because i see her becoming her mom, who is so obese and not attractive, and the more unhealthy she is, the more it pushes me away. how do i deal with this???


Women often gain weight because they don't like you and they want to become 'unattractive' so you will leave them alone. It's working, isn't it?

It's also indicative of depression.

As for examples in manning up...
Say you want to go for a bike ride, you approach her and say 'hey, it's nice outside, let's go for a ride.' She says no (of course, since she wants nothing to do with you). What do you do? The Nice Guy would just then sit down on the couch and watch tv with her and eat carbs. The NON-Nice Guy would say 'oh, too bad, well, I'm going, I'll be back in a couple hours.' And he would leave and go ride that bike. Just that one simple act makes you maybe 1% more attractive to her, more mysterious, more manly. See how he didn't downgrade HIS happiness to accommodate her? Now, if she had something else to do that was also fun, sure, do what she's doing.

If she tries to guilt you into accepting blame for not having money while she's a SAHM, for example, a Nice Guy would take on a nighttime pizza delivery job to give her more money, end up working 60 hours a week instead of 40. A NON-Nice Guy would say 'That's too bad, that you think you need more money. What ideas have you come up with for earning some?' See how he didn't take on her unhappiness when he is already doing what he should to provide for her? I have a friend like you who, by the time his wife divorced him, had a great job, and also had three side jobs, just to try to keep giving her more and more money. He was working 100 hours a week. It was never enough, because she really wanted a real man who would stand up to her sh*t tests.

If a woman starts yelling at her man, a Nice Guy would stand there and take it and ask her what he could do to make her happy, and to please quit yelling. A NON-Nice Guy would stop her mid-sentence and say 'Let me know when you can talk to me with respect, and we'll revisit whatever your problem is. I don't respond well to yelling.' And he would leave the room or the house.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> she has developed these annoying habits (talking with mouth full of food, etc), but I cant even ask her in a nice way to not do it because she can't handle criticism.


So?

That's HER problem.

YOUR problem is you are afraid of her. Afraid of her anger.

Until you can address that - are YOU in therapy? - you will forever be her prisoner.

My H used to chew with his mouth open, when we met. After a few times, I said "I can't be in the same room with someone who eats with their mouth open. If you keep doing it, I'm going to have to get up and leave the room." Sure, it hurt his feelings. But it was the truth! And after a few times of me actually leaving the room, guess what? He TRAINED himself to eat with his mouth closed.

Your fear of her anger is your worst enemy. As my IC would say, what's the worst that can happen? Will she stab you? Kill you? Leave you? Her anger isn't going to cripple you or kill you; she may LEAVE you, but if a woman leaves you simply because you tell her the truth...what are you actually fighting to save?

PS:, chunder, please add capitalization and punctuation to your posts; textspeak is too hard to read.


----------



## EVG39

You say you read Glover's Book and it hit the nail on the head.
Good.
But you say you are still struggling with ways to "man up"
Did you simply read the book and not do any of the exercises in there?
That's exactly what those exercises are designed to help you begin to do.


----------



## As'laDain

turnera said:


> This is why your marriage is failing. *There is no place for unconditional love in a marriage*. For kids, of course. For a partner? No. Each is free to walk away at any moment, and often do. You must each EARN the other in your life, all the time. You taught her that she could do anything and you would never leave, never exert consequences, never do anything. Women HATE that. They hate weak men who are so desperate to stay married that they accept horrible behavior or being ignored. And the more you accept it, the more they hate you for accepting it.
> 
> Until YOU realize you deserve better, she will never consider giving better.


i agree with everything you wrote, except this. true unconditional love is the only kind that has any place in any relationship. the problem is that people like to call unconditional catering unconditional love. 

unconditional love seeks to better another person so that they can find joy regardless of where they find themselves. we love our children this way because we want them to succeed. we discipline them because we want them to grow. 

as you stated, women hate weak men. but, weak men are NOT practicing unconditional love. weak men let their resentments build because they fear confrontation. weak men teach their wives that it is ok to disrespect them. that is not unconditional love... i mean, who wants to be with someone who isn't worth anything? how could she wake up and be proud to be married to a man who thinks so little of himself that he will take any abuse just to be able to hold the title of husband? what does that say about how he thinks of her? she is just a trophy!


OP, you have decided to BE the kind of person who is ok with being abused and ignored. your wife has decided to be the kind of person who abuses and ignores her husband, and you have given her no reason not to. do you really think she is happy with the husband you have become? you need to really think about what unconditional love is. it is the kind of love that says "i love you because of what you are and not because of who you are, and i want the best for you". it means you will always want them to be a better person. its the exact same way we love our children. unconditional love does NOT lie to make someone feel better for a season while setting them up for failure. it is ALWAYS brutally and beautifully honest. 

but, you don't even love yourself. you have accepted the terrible treatment despite your own convictions. you KNOW its wrong and are choosing cowardice over honesty. whether you actually believe that you deserve such treatment, you have chosen to accept it. how can you possibly claim to love your wife if you don't even love yourself?

if you truly loved yourself, you would not be rocked when your wife throws a tantrum. you would simply take appropriate action to resolve the issue, even if that means stating your boundaries and providing consequences for disrespecting them. because if you truly loved yourself, you would know that her tantrum has nothing to do with you, and you would not resent her for it because you would know that she is just as blind as you are. you would simply take appropriate action to resolve the conflict and then let it go.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

turnera said:


> This is why your marriage is failing. There is no place for unconditional love in a marriage. For kids, of course. For a partner? No. Each is free to walk away at any moment, and often do. You must each EARN the other in your life, all the time. You taught her that she could do anything and you would never leave, never exert consequences, never do anything. Women HATE that. They hate weak men who are so desperate to stay married that they accept horrible behavior or being ignored. And the more you accept it, the more they hate you for accepting it.
> 
> Until YOU realize you deserve better, she will never consider giving better.


How do you attribute unconditional love to the OP's posts and then go on to attack it?



> its been a brutal ride
> ........
> i mean something like "i feel neglected lately".
> ................
> she has also started eating poorly, doesnt exercise, and I cant say anything because then she loses it.
> ...................
> she does not give ONE thing to our relationship. NOT ONE thing to me. she ignores me most days, only talking when she needs something or feels like it, and plays with our baby or puts on her headphones and watches netflix (when she isnt working). she is a good and loving mother, which is wierd, as she has so much compassion for our son, but none for me.
> 
> ..............
> i dont get it. im tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return.
> ..........
> but she isnt reciprocating
> ...........
> i cry daily.
> ........
> she was so sweet and this awful industry changed her.
> .........
> that she too must GIVE something to a relationship.
> .............
> i still believe she is in there somewhere. i know it. but something drastic has to change.
> ................
> is that she just cant handle criticism of ANY kind.
> ............
> its very real and very brutal.


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> How do you attribute unconditional love to the OP's posts and then go on to attack it?


i could be wrong, but i have the feeling that Turnera thinks of unconditional love in a similar way i do, and would probably rather call what the OP describes something else, but chooses to use it in the same way the posters that she responds to use it for the sake of simplicity. 


Turnera, feel free to correct me if i am wrong.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

turnera said:


> A NON-Nice Guy would say 'That's too bad, that you think you need more money. What ideas have you come up with for earning some?'
> 
> If a woman starts yelling at her man, a Nice Guy would stand there and take it and ask her what he could do to make her happy, and to please quit yelling. A NON-Nice Guy would stop her mid-sentence and say 'Let me know when you can talk to me with respect, and we'll revisit whatever your problem is. I don't respond well to yelling.' And he would leave the room or the house.


There is nothing about being nice that makes a man inherently weak.

Weakness, like it or not, is letting others arouse one's emotions in a negative manner. Taking offense to the example behavior is a sign of weakness. There are methods of disarming individuals without defending one's pride. That advice leads to resentment and degrades relationship communication. Victims act in that manner. Relationships work when neither partner is a victim. OP's relationship may only thrive if he acts in a manner that is consistent with a victor or one who is unconditionally happy.

It is no one's fault that they feel victimized, as it is all they learned, since inception. Unfortunately, the abundant research that supports my conclusion is politically incorrect.


----------



## turnera

Relationship Teacher said:


> How do you attribute unconditional love to the OP's posts and then go on to attack it?


IMO, unconditional love means you stay no matter what. Sure, someone can INTEND to have unconditional love and then slowly fall out of love through disappointment and resentment. My issue is saying that she deserves his love, no matter what she does to keep it. Just this morning I reminded my DD25 that it's ok to turn to her boyfriend when she's having a bad day, but that if she makes him the one person she rags on any time she's having a bad day because she expects him to always love her, he just may decide she's not worth staying in love with.


----------



## turnera

Relationship Teacher said:


> There is nothing about being nice that makes a man inherently weak.
> 
> Weakness, like it or not, is letting others arouse one's emotions in a negative manner. Taking offense to the example behavior is a sign of weakness. There are methods of disarming individuals without defending one's pride. That advice leads to resentment and degrades relationship communication. Victims act in that manner. Relationships work when neither partner is a victim.


Which is exactly why he needs to re-read NMMNG and put it into practice. NGs are weak and sustain their victimhood status and try to create covert contracts to get their needs met instead of simply standing up for themselves.

And I sense you haven't read NMMNG. It's not about being a good person. It's about being a weak person who pretends to be nice to everyone to get what he wants out of their 'guilt' over him being so nice.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

turnera said:


> Which is exactly why he needs to re-read NMMNG and put it into practice. NGs are weak and sustain their victimhood status and try to create covert contracts to get their needs met instead of simply standing up for themselves.
> 
> And I sense you haven't read NMMNG. It's not about being a good person. It's about being a weak person who pretends to be nice to everyone to get what he wants out of their 'guilt' over him being so nice.


Thanks


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> There is nothing about being nice that makes a man inherently weak.
> 
> Weakness, like it or not, is *letting others arouse one's emotions in a negative manner*. Taking offense to the example behavior is a sign of weakness. There are methods of disarming individuals without defending one's pride. That advice leads to resentment and degrades relationship communication. Victims act in that manner. Relationships work when neither partner is a victim. OP's relationship may only thrive if he acts in a manner that is consistent with a victor or one who is unconditionally happy.
> 
> It is no one's fault that they feel victimized, as it is all they learned, since inception. Unfortunately, the abundant research that supports my conclusion is politically incorrect.


i hope you are not saying that it is weak to emotionally respond to actions with negative emotions...

that isnt weakness, its human. our emotions are experiences no different than the heat we feel from the sun or the cold we feel from a handful of snow. they say nothing about our worth. 

the advice that turnera gives is exactly what i did in my own marriage and it did the opposite of build resentment and degrade communication. it led to _real_ communication and stopped resentment from building.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

As'laDain said:


> i hope you are not saying that it is weak to emotionally respond to actions with negative emotions...
> 
> that isnt weakness, its human. our emotions are experiences no different than the heat we feel from the sun or the cold we feel from a handful of snow. they say nothing about our worth.
> 
> the advice that turnera gives is exactly what i did in my own marriage and it did the opposite of build resentment and degrade communication. it led to _real_ communication and stopped resentment from building.


Negative emotional reactions are _learned_. I say it is weakness because it is allowing outside circumstances influence one's emotional state. In the example Turnera gave, it is still letting the wife pull one's strings. Said advice works when the partner backs down. There are serious negative externalities that may accompany that behavior or mindset. 

What works is no longer perceiving and accepting the negativity.


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> Negative emotional reactions are _learned_. I say it is weakness because it is allowing outside circumstances influence one's emotional state. In the example Turnera gave, it is still letting the wife pull one's strings. Said advice works when the partner backs down. There are serious negative externalities that may accompany that behavior or mindset.
> 
> What works is no longer perceiving and accepting the negativity.


lol, wow. tell a two year old that negative emotional reactions are learned. go tell a three day old infant that is screaming because the cat scratched its nose that the fear that it is feeling is a learned emotional response. 

thats a load of BS. 

emotional reactions, all of them, are simply information. what is *learned* is behavioral regulation. the emotions are just emotions. they are an indication of how we are experiencing the world around us, nothing more. our behavior is learned. our emotions we were born with. eventually we can learn to regulate our own emotions through our own thoughts, choosing to focus on ideas that we react positively to, but our actual emotions are again, just responses. just data. a sensation to give experience meaning.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

As'laDain said:


> thats a load of BS.
> 
> emotional reactions, all of them, are simply information. what is *learned* is behavioral regulation. the emotions are just emotions. they are an indication of how we are experiencing the world around us, nothing more. our behavior is learned. our emotions we were born with. eventually we can learn to regulate our own emotions through our own thoughts, choosing to focus on ideas that we react positively to, but our actual emotions are again, just responses. just data. a sensation to give experience meaning.


:smile2:

The subconscious mind is programmed. It is software not all firmware. What you think is your personality was given to you. Personalities are _heavily _defined by nurture.



> lol, wow. tell a two year old that negative emotional reactions are learned. go tell a three day old infant that is screaming because the cat scratched its nose that the fear that it is feeling is a learned emotional response.


Is a screaming infant acting out of emotions? Hunger=Scream, Scream=I'm Hungry, not hurt feelings.

There are naturally derived reactions, but we aren't talking about those.


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> Negative emotional reactions are _learned_. I say it is weakness because it is allowing outside circumstances influence one's emotional state. *In the example Turnera gave, it is still letting the wife pull one's strings. Said advice works when the partner backs down. There are serious negative externalities that may accompany that behavior or mindset.*
> 
> What works is no longer perceiving and accepting the negativity.


works when the partner backs down? well, the first time i did it, my wife hurled a butcher knife at my head and i walked out of the house. i gotta say, i never thought i would be be grateful for the times my mother used to do such things. that dodging skill came in damned handy!

was that me letting her pull my strings? ultimately, i hit on her anxiety from her fear of abandonment and she stopped doing such things. should i be upset by the fact that i had to be that kind of person in order to get her end the abusive behavior? should i call myself weak because i was willing to do what worked? should i call myself weak for what i felt?


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> :smile2:
> 
> The subconscious mind is programmed. It is software not all firmware. *What you think is your personality was given to you. Personalities are heavily defined by nurture.*
> 
> 
> Is a screaming infant acting out of emotions? Hunger=Scream, Scream=I'm Hungry, not hurt feelings.
> 
> There are naturally derived reactions, but we aren't talking about those.


all emotion is naturally derived. you want me to try to emotionally react to my wife screaming at me with humor? well then, i have to picture her as a little cartoon girl jumping up and down stomping her foot. that's pretty funny. but by that point, i am emotionally reacting to what i am focusing on, which is a thought that i chose to focus on. im still reacting to something emotionally. ah, the reactions. cant get away from them.

my personality has changed to be what i have chosen it to be. in the end, what emotions i feel means absolutely nothing to anyone else. the only thing they see is my actions. body language, facial expressions, words, actions, etc. so, there really is no faking a personality unless you believe you are faking it. i have chosen to change mine. 


an infant knows emotion and nothing else. fear and love.


----------



## Satya

LOVING someone unconditionally and being a constant YES person are not one and the same. You can practice unconditional love and still exert your boundaries.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

As'laDain said:


> works when the partner backs down? well, the first time i did it, my wife hurled a butcher knife at my head and i walked out of the house. i gotta say, i never thought i would be be grateful for the times my mother used to do such things. that dodging skill came in damned handy!


Indeed!


> was that me letting her pull my strings? ultimately, i hit on her anxiety from her fear of abandonment and she stopped doing such things. should i be upset by the fact that i had to be that kind of person in order to get her end the abusive behavior? should i call myself weak because i was willing to do what worked? should i call myself weak for what i felt?


Are you weak? Not at all. I see it as choice A versus choice B. You never learned that you had a choice B.


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> Indeed!
> 
> Are you weak? Not at all. I see it as choice A versus choice B. You never learned that you had a choice B.


a choice B being what? not feel anything? not have a reaction? your thoughts and philosophies on emotions are quite fascinating to me. 

you might be surprised what i have learned.


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## turnera

Relationship Teacher said:


> Negative emotional reactions are _learned_. I say it is weakness because it is allowing outside circumstances influence one's emotional state. In the example Turnera gave, it is still letting the wife pull one's strings. Said advice works when the partner backs down. There are serious negative externalities that may accompany that behavior or mindset.
> 
> What works is no longer perceiving and accepting the negativity.


Are you referring to this one, the one you quoted?


> If a woman starts yelling at her man, a Nice Guy would stand there and take it and ask her what he could do to make her happy, and to please quit yelling. A NON-Nice Guy would stop her mid-sentence and say 'Let me know when you can talk to me with respect, and we'll revisit whatever your problem is. I don't respond well to yelling.' And he would leave the room or the house.


How is that letting the wife pull his strings? He does not get emotional. He does not interact when she's yelling. He calmly tells her 'let's talk when you've calmed down' and walks away.


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## Relationship Teacher

turnera said:


> Are you referring to this one, the one you quoted?
> 
> 
> How is that letting the wife pull his strings? He does not get emotional. He does not interact when she's yelling. He calmly tells her 'let's talk when you've calmed down' and walks away.


Correct, the one originally referred to. 

I say this because it is still the perception of negative behavior. Showing individuals what they perceive is positive or negative gives access to one's emotional buttons. This is why I am not surprised to hear of As'laDain's butcher knife tale.

The wife doing XYZ can result in the husband saying, 'let's talk when you've calmed down' and walking away. It is analogous to if/then statements in programming.

Thanks


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> Correct, the one originally referred to.
> 
> I say this because it is still the perception of negative behavior. Showing individuals what they perceive is positive or negative gives access to one's emotional buttons. This is why I am not surprised to hear of As'laDain's butcher knife tale.
> 
> The wife doing XYZ can result in the husband saying, 'let's talk when you've calmed down' and walking away. It is analogous to if/then statements in programming.
> 
> Thanks


What is so wrong with having an emotional response? My wife knows exactly how to get me to feel anxiety, but she also knows that I really don't give a damn whether I am anxious or not. I will act exactly the way I intend to. I will respond to her behavior exactly as I have previously stated I would. You probably think I let my fears rule me... Is that correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Relationship Teacher

As'laDain said:


> What is so wrong with having an emotional response? My wife knows exactly how to get me to feel anxiety, but she also knows that I really don't give a damn whether I am anxious or not. I will act exactly the way I intend to. I will respond to her behavior exactly as I have previously stated I would. You probably think I let my fears rule me... Is that correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it is unfortunate for individuals to experience negativity, myself included. It is a deviation from happiness. Happiness is the goal. I question whether our learned behaviors get us to our targeted goal or not.

I would not say that your fears rule you.


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## Spotthedeaddog

as I found out...

You are no longer a member of the relationship. It is her and her "career"(ego). As long as she's having that "affair", you have nothing worth rating. you're kept around simply because it would be more inconvenient to get rid of you. Guess that's we get for helping our partner succeed


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## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> I think it is unfortunate for individuals to experience negativity, myself included. It is a deviation from happiness. Happiness is the goal. I question whether our learned behaviors get us to our targeted goal or not.
> 
> I would not say that your fears rule you.


why should you consider it unfortunate to experience negativity? if the goal is to never feel anything but happiness, can you ever truly be without fear? you will always fear moments of strife, pain, sadness, etc. the attachment to the feeling would then dictate our decisions from moment to moment. life would be lived to avoid unhappiness. tying ourselves to such an experience ties us to the fear of losing it. 

do you know what true love is? to truly love yourself? if you truly love yourself, you have to accept your emotions because they are a part of what you are. notice i did not say that they are a part of who you are... but they are a part of _what_ you are. if you truly love yourself, you will _have_ to accept yourself for what you are. otherwise, you will despise yourself for being human. so, its ok to feel whatever you feel. any and all emotions are ok, they just need to be understood. 

if you love someone else like that, you will be able to accept their emotions as well. you will never judge them for what they feel. you will simply seek to understand them. that is not to say that you will accept any behavior. 

*chunderbunder*, its ok to feel fear at the thought of losing your wife. those feelings are not what makes you weak. those feelings really dont say anything about your strength or your weakness. what DOES say something about it is your actions. you may actually be able to get your wife to choose to be that image that you fell in love with, however. in order to do that, however, you will have to do something to get her to choose to be that person again. and, you may not be able to do that. it is ultimately up to her to choose who she is going to be. 

you should think about something though... your wife is still your wife. ultimately, what she is at her core is exactly the same as what she was back when you fell in love with her. what you fell in love with was not the base entity, the person, it was the image she was portraying through her actions. it was who she was choosing to be. she CAN be that person again, but if you cannot learn to love her for WHAT she is, you may not be able to accept anything that you might have to do in order to motivate her to be that person again. 


at any moment your wife can choose to be a different person. at any moment YOU can choose to be a different person as well. your actual emotions mean absolutely nothing to her. she can never truly know your emotions. let me explain what i mean...

lets say a soldier is in his first firefight. his sergeant keeps his cool and swiftly calls out orders and directs his team, telling the soldier what to do. the soldier is practically shaking in his boots, feels like he cant even think because he is so terrified, and is sure he is messing everything up. he desperately fires his rifle, gets up and runs as fast as he can while shaking so hard that he is certain he will drop his rifle. afterwords, he is thanking GOD he has a sergeant that has been there, done that, isn't afraid of a simple firefight, and could direct him while he was so terrified he couldn't think for himself. afterwords, he finds out that his sergeant literally pi$$ed himself, and the sergeant can barely contain his awe at how incredibly fearless his brand new soldier was in his very first firefight. 

our emotions are not what are interpreted by others. only our actions are.


----------



## turnera

Relationship Teacher said:


> Correct, the one originally referred to.
> 
> I say this because it is still the perception of negative behavior. Showing individuals what they perceive is positive or negative gives access to one's emotional buttons. This is why I am not surprised to hear of As'laDain's butcher knife tale.
> 
> The wife doing XYZ can result in the husband saying, 'let's talk when you've calmed down' and walking away. It is analogous to if/then statements in programming.
> 
> Thanks


And your solution is to...stand there and let her scream at you? Because then you won't be being emotional or giving her judgment?

What's wrong with feeling negativity? That's how we learn and grow. Don't like your spouse walking out of the room when you scream at them? Gee, maybe I should try not screaming next time. And next time, when she tempers her voice level...gee, it worked - I stayed calm and he stayed in the room and we actually came to a compromise. Whodathunkit?


----------



## Relationship Teacher

turnera said:


> And your solution is to...stand there and let her scream at you? Because then you won't be being emotional or giving her judgment?


My solution: Emotional re-programming or un-programming. 

Communication is used to relay information or bargain. Individuals also have a need to match energy levels. I can exert force so that she has to match mine by walking out of the room or do so by not receiving the negativity. I choose to not have to dodge flying objects.

:wink2:



turnera said:


> What's wrong with feeling negativity? That's how we learn and grow. Don't like your spouse walking out of the room when you scream at them? Gee, maybe I should try not screaming next time. And next time, when she tempers her voice level...gee, it worked - I stayed calm and he stayed in the room and we actually came to a compromise. Whodathunkit?


It isn't wrong; it is unfortunate. I agree that it is a move in the right direction, but I am wary of the negative externalities that may accompany it.

We can let our partner exert control over us with the aforementioned screaming. We can exert control by doing what you advise. Or we can not exert control.


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> My solution: Emotional re-programming or un-programming.
> 
> Communication is used to relay information or bargain. Individuals also have a need to match energy levels. I can exert force so that she has to match mine by walking out of the room or do so by not receiving the negativity. *I choose to not have to dodge flying objects*.
> 
> :wink2:
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't wrong; it is unfortunate. I agree that it is a move in the right direction, but I am wary of the negative externalities that may accompany it.
> 
> We can let our partner exert control over us with the aforementioned screaming. We can exert control by doing what you advise. Or we can not exert control.



you know, when my brothers and i were growing up, there was nothing we could do to stop my mother from randomly trying to stab us besides leave. there was really nothing i could have said to my wife to calm her down. walking away got stuff thrown at me. trying to calm her down got stuff thrown at me. the first time i stopped and actually said "im leaving the house until you can TALK to me" it just happened to be a knife that she grabbed. 

you choose to not have to dodge flying objects? how do you control those around you so that you can be certain that you will never have to dodge flying objects? or do you simply decide to take the plate to the face?


----------



## JukeboxHero

Thor said:


> I agree, except for the last sentence. While she may gain attraction to you, the reason for you to work on yourself is for *you*, not to elicit her attraction.
> 
> I highly recommend the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover. Also the support forums at nomoremrniceguy.com/forums. There are a ton of things you can do to become the authentic man you really are inside. A lot of your distress is because you can't be your real self.
> 
> Also read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty". It is far more than what the title suggests. Just read it!
> 
> The only way to save this marriage is for you to be willing to end it. I don't think you are ready for that today, but you will be soon. The magic, though, is that this is the only way to save this marriage.
> 
> It is said the person who cares least about the relationship has all the power. Right now your wife knows you really really care, which gives her all the power. Once you show her you are willing to end the marriage if it doesn't become a good marriage for you, she loses the power to dictate the quality of the relationship.
> 
> Think of it like this. Right now she only has to do D- work to keep you. She has to do just enough that you don't give up. But if you say confidently that things are already bad enough that you cannot stay, she has to step up and do A+ work to convince you to turn around and stay.
> 
> Telling her things are no longer acceptable is not the same as saying you don't want to be married to her. You are just saying that you can't stay as things are currently, but if things change then you prefer to stay.
> 
> You have enough money to afford hired help. At least get a housekeeper in a couple of times each week. Hire a chef for a few nights each week, or do takeout. If you don't do takeout, cook something really simple for dinner like pancakes or hamburgers. Hire someone to take care of the lawn.
> 
> Stop doing your wife's laundry. If you're working full time there is no reason for you to be doing more than half the housework. Use a laundry service if needed.


Great advice, Thor! I also feel I need to get that book "when I say no, I feel guilty". I have difficulties saying "No" sometimes as well and I feel like I'm hurting someone or screwing someone over if I say No.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

As'laDain said:


> how do you control those around you so that you can be certain that you will never have to dodge flying objects? or do you simply decide to take the plate to the face?


If I don't perceive negativity, I guarantee that I don't act negatively. It is hard to discuss/debate this scenario when my teaching/advice is not conflict resolution but conflict mitigation. We are discussing what I would do in a scenario that does not take place in my household, but might on the street. One may become upset from time to time, but bargaining with anger is a disservice to oneself. My partner knows that she will maximize her chances (99%) of getting what she wants by asking.

What do you do when faced with someone that is unattractive? Do you look away or force yourself not to. My advice is analogous to no longer seeing unattractiveness. As such, there is no inner conflict. 

Thanks


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> If I don't perceive negativity, I guarantee that I don't act negatively. It is hard to discuss/debate this scenario when my teaching/advice is not conflict resolution but conflict mitigation. We are discussing what I would do in a scenario that does not take place in my household, but might on the street. One may become upset from time to time, but bargaining with anger is a disservice to oneself. My partner knows that she will maximize her chances (99%) of getting what she wants by asking.
> *
> What do you do when faced with someone that is unattractive? Do you look away or force yourself not to. My advice is analogous to no longer seeing unattractiveness. As such, there is no inner conflict.*
> 
> Thanks


well, i can tell you that in my own situations where i HAVE had to deal with such things in my own home, it didn't really matter what my composure was. the anger of course, had nothing to do with me. what i perceive now is no different than what i perceived before, although i am no longer afraid of any amount of anxiety or fear. the difference is that i stopped assuming that something must be wrong with feeling. fear, anger, anxiety, sadness, arousal, none of it was ever 'wrong'. it just was. and if that was true of me, it was true of my wife as well. so, even though she can display anger, fear, etc, i can still love her despite that. because i can love myself despite that. 

you have alluded to "programming" a few times... well, you know then, that people react to things differently. what bothers one may delight another. those emotions, though, are the same across the board. we just associate different emotional experiences to different stimuli, based solely on our unique experiences. so, for someone who believes that their emotions are a measure of who they are instead of an indication of what they are, what do you say? what do you say to someone who feels fear every time someone tells them that they love them?

my wife feared those words because in her life, they always preceded profoundly painful and horrendous betrayals. what would you say to someone who has been fully convinced that those words are a threat? that affection WILL proceed a beating, or a rape? could you love someone who lashes out like that every time you try to get close to them?

i did. and i loved her because i knew that she could change her behavior at any time. but how could she learn to trust me if i say the things she has heard before? well, there was something i could do there too. i could clearly state what i was going to do in response to her behavior, and never deviate from my word. and repeat the process until she realizes that i always mean what i say. she eventually realized that when i say "i love you", i wasn't just saying it. just like everything else, it was something that i chose to do, whether i liked it or not. whether it felt good or not. 

i set aside my own feelings and did what i knew she needed rather than what would feel good for myself, or for her, at the moment. and guess what happened? we fell in love. 


you cannot mitigate conflict with someone who wants conflict. im not sure how enforcing boundaries is "bargaining with anger"...

as for the bolded, it sounds more like denial to me. you cannot choose to simply not feel something. there is no reason to look away from someone who is unattractive if you are not afraid of feeling whatever negative reaction you may feel. your advice is essentially to not feel. basically, don't be human. its like telling a man who is gay to stop being turned on by men. or a man who is straight to stop getting turned on by women. it just doesn't work like that.


----------



## bfree

Relationship Teacher said:


> I think it is unfortunate for individuals to experience negativity, myself included. It is a deviation from happiness. Happiness is the goal. I question whether our learned behaviors get us to our targeted goal or not.
> 
> I would not say that your fears rule you.


Yes, happiness is a goal. But it is not a permanent residence.


----------



## bfree

I love how some people insist on trying to rationalize emotion. Emotions don't always make sense. Emotions don't always follow logical patterns. I am not an automaton. I like to experience feelings. I enjoy the chaotic spontaneity of emotional responses. Emotions aren't positive or negative. They are appropriate reactions to stimuli. Passion and anger are two sides of the same coin and I wouldn't want to suppress either of them.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

bfree said:


> I love how some people insist on trying to rationalize emotion. Emotions don't always make sense. Emotions don't always follow logical patterns. I am not an automaton. I like to experience feelings. I enjoy the chaotic spontaneity of emotional responses. Emotions aren't positive or negative. They are appropriate reactions to stimuli. Passion and anger are two sides of the same coin and I wouldn't want to suppress either of them.


An emotion is looked at to build emotional intelligence. It isn't that _some_ people insist on it but the happiest people and psychologists that _I_ greatly admire. Were emotional intelligence the norm, bullying would be an artifact of the past, something read in Psychology textbooks.

Does it help a UFC fighter to become angry by an insult in the ring? No, it limits their ability to react in the moment so as to fight to the full potential.

Negative emotions are intended to be alarms. So just what is being alarmed? In a child's emotional development, they learned what to perceive should be alarmed. 

I don't proffer my teachings so that emotions are removed, only replaced with positive ones.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

As'laDain said:


> well, i can tell you that in my own situations where i HAVE had to deal with such things in my own home, it didn't really matter what my composure was. the anger of course, had nothing to do with me. what i perceive now is no different than what i perceived before, although i am no longer afraid of any amount of anxiety or fear. the difference is that i stopped assuming that something must be wrong with feeling. fear, anger, anxiety, sadness, arousal, none of it was ever 'wrong'. it just was. and if that was true of me, it was true of my wife as well. so, even though she can display anger, fear, etc, i can still love her despite that. because i can love myself despite that.






> you have alluded to "programming" a few times... well, you know then, that people react to things differently. what bothers one may delight another. those emotions, though, are the same across the board. we just associate different emotional experiences to different stimuli, based solely on our unique experiences. so, for someone who believes that their emotions are a measure of who they are instead of an indication of what they are, what do you say? what do you say to someone who feels fear every time someone tells them that they love them?


I would say that it is predominantly a function of their emotional and behavioral development as a child. 




> my wife feared those words because in her life, they always preceded profoundly painful and horrendous betrayals. what would you say to someone who has been fully convinced that those words are a threat? that affection WILL proceed a beating, or a rape? could you love someone who lashes out like that every time you try to get close to them?


They learned negative associations. Much can be done to eliminate them. I say that acceptance is the first step. They are not to blame. Their programming is.




> you cannot mitigate conflict with someone who wants conflict.


I sincerely disagree.



> as for the bolded, it sounds more like denial to me. you cannot choose to simply not feel something. there is no reason to look away from someone who is unattractive if you are not afraid of feeling whatever negative reaction you may feel. your advice is essentially to not feel. basically, don't be human. its like telling a man who is gay to stop being turned on by men. or a man who is straight to stop getting turned on by women. it just doesn't work like that.


I practice what I preach. I was one that was seriously compromised with emotional reactions. It isn't being a robot, it is simply not judging everything. I laugh, smile and give love constantly.

It is not _human_ to be sad or mad at XYZ reaction of one's spouse. It is the programming that created that sense-emotion link. This is not theory.


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> I would say that it is predominantly a function of their emotional and behavioral development as a child.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They learned negative associations. Much can be done to eliminate them. I say that acceptance is the first step. They are not to blame. Their programming is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I sincerely disagree.
> 
> 
> I practice what I preach. I was one that was seriously compromised with emotional reactions. It isn't being a robot, it is simply not judging everything. I laugh, smile and give love constantly.
> 
> *It is not human to be sad or mad at XYZ reaction of one's spouse. It is the programming that created that sense-emotion link. This is not theory.*


you are right. it is not theory. it is philosophy at best, and it is completely arbitrary. 
if your partner decided to slap you every time you tried to speak, would you choose to simply not receive negativity? accused you of lying and went out and told everyone that about how much of a lying cheat you are for no apparent reason? or told you that she has decided that you are not good enough for you anymore, so she has decided to leave you for a client of yours? you would simply choose not to accept the negativity and therefore prevent any uncomfortable negative emotional response? what do you call those people who respond negatively to such things, if not human? the bolded statement is, quite simply put, complete BS. 

your focus is just a tool to avoid the emotional reaction. it is certainly not a bad one to have, but it cannot prevent you from feeling, it only gives you something else to focus on. instead of focusing on the fact that your wife disrespects you, you might instead focus on whatever happy thought you can conjure up. 

what we feel is not a problem, it is never the problem. what we choose to do about it can be, however. the conclusions we draw from our emotions often are as well. the problem is our lack of awareness. you know what it feels like to be joyous even though you are in pain? to be so full of joy that you cant help but laugh, even though you are in complete physical and emotional agony?

something tells me that you know _exactly_ what that feels like. you probably experienced it for the first time immediately following one of your most painful moments in life. you didn't experience that from choosing to not receive a negative emotion. that is impossible. an emotion is not something you can receive, it can only be experienced.

you experienced it by focusing on and expressing the joy _despite_ the negative emotion.


----------



## RandomDude

I agree with others here, she needs a wake up call. She continues to neglect u bc u allow it. So yes - file for divorce

her job is no excuse, Im MD of a tough industry as well but I always keep my feet on the ground. Her behaviour is that of insecurity, ive terminated several managers n asst managers with that type of attitude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Relationship Teacher

As'laDain said:


> you are right. it is not theory. it is philosophy at best, and it is completely arbitrary.


It is pretty simple developmental Psychology, in many aspects. It is well founded and backed by plenty of empirical evidence. There are differing opinions and takeaways, but it is not arbitrary.



> if your partner decided to slap you every time you tried to speak, would you choose to simply not receive negativity? accused you of lying and went out and told everyone that about how much of a lying cheat you are for no apparent reason? or told you that she has decided that you are not good enough for you anymore, so she has decided to leave you for a client of yours? you would simply choose not to accept the negativity and therefore prevent any uncomfortable negative emotional response? what do you call those people who respond negatively to such things, if not human? the bolded statement is, quite simply put, complete BS.


:smile2:

I don't rely on others for self-esteem. I am in a relationship to give. A goal I do have is to work to eliminate as many negative emotions as is possible. In computer jargon "crap in, crap out". 

Again, you are talking as if my world view applied to a world of "crap." My partner can't help but be happy around me. Any negativity is absurdly brief and very mild.

It is as simple as having a choice as to what I want to react to (as much as humanly possible). If something is only subjectively negative, then why _must_ I react with sadness or anger? What is the benefit?



> your focus is just a tool to avoid the emotional reaction. it is certainly not a bad one to have, but it cannot prevent you from feeling, it only gives you something else to focus on. instead of focusing on the fact that your wife disrespects you, you might instead focus on whatever happy thought you can conjure up.


Close, but no.

I actually do have very strong control over my emotions. The force of logic is incredibly powerful and it is one of the main principles I teach. When confronted by something (with few exceptions), my logic is prompted. Three paths are then presented: positive, negative, meaningless. I don't shift my focus away from "negativity", I shift my focus towards it.


----------



## bfree

Relationship Teacher said:


> An emotion is looked at to build emotional intelligence. It isn't that _some_ people insist on it but the happiest people and psychologists that _I_ greatly admire. Were emotional intelligence the norm, bullying would be an artifact of the past, something read in Psychology textbooks.
> 
> Does it help a UFC fighter to become angry by an insult in the ring? No, it limits their ability to react in the moment so as to fight to the full potential.
> 
> Negative emotions are intended to be alarms. So just what is being alarmed? In a child's emotional development, they learned what to perceive should be alarmed.
> 
> I don't proffer my teachings so that emotions are removed, only replaced with positive ones.


Actually, I have a very good friend that is a professional fighter. He would strongly disagree with you. In fact he would say that anger is very much a desired emotion in his line of work. But the key is to channel that anger and not allow it to spin out of control. If he were to try to replace that anger with a more "positive" emotion he would end up flat on his back.

Let's expand that discussion even further. Have you ever heard of "bulletin board material?" Professional sports coaches use it all the time to motivate their team against an upcoming opponent. Why would the most successful coaches do this if it didn't work? Many athletes use real and perceived snubs as motivation. Tom Brady, considered by many to be the greatest quarterback ever to play professional football still uses his 6th round draft status as motivation 15 years later. But I suppose you would counsel him to replace that negative emotion with a positive one if he is to attain success and happiness?

To me emotional intelligence is recognizing the emotion, understanding it and accepting it as part of human existence. Just like pain is an indication of illness or injury emotions are an indication of external stimuli and as long as the emotion is appropriate for the circumstances it is a healthy response to life.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

bfree said:


> Actually, I have a very good friend that is a professional fighter. He would strongly disagree with you. In fact he would say that anger is very much a desired emotion in his line of work. But the key is to channel that anger and not allow it to spin out of control. If he were to try to replace that anger with a more "positive" emotion he would end up flat on his back.


I didn't say that _fighters _should replace anger with positive emotions. 

I was trained in military combat and kickboxing....... I am not without personal experience. 




> Let's expand that discussion even further. Have you ever heard of "bulletin board material?" Professional sports coaches use it all the time to motivate their team against an upcoming opponent. Why would the most successful coaches do this if it didn't work? Many athletes use real and perceived snubs as motivation. Tom Brady, considered by many to be the greatest quarterback ever to play professional football still uses his 6th round draft status as motivation 15 years later. But I suppose you would counsel him to replace that negative emotion with a positive one if he is to attain success and happiness?


There certainly are uses for negativity, but in contexts I am not speaking of.



> To me emotional intelligence is recognizing the emotion, understanding it and accepting it as part of human existence. Just like pain is an indication of illness or injury emotions are an indication of external stimuli and as long as the emotion is appropriate for the circumstances it is a healthy response to life.


Not quite.


----------



## bfree

Relationship Teacher said:


> I didn't say that _fighters _should replace anger with positive emotions.
> 
> I was trained in military combat and kickboxing....... I am not without personal experience.
> 
> 
> 
> There certainly are uses for negativity, but in contexts I am not speaking of.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite.


First you say that anger works against a fighter, then when I challenge that point you say it doesn't and that you never said that.You flip-flop and make no sense. Our conversation is not helping the OP at all. Have a nice day.


----------



## wmn1

chunderbunder said:


> im sorry but you are off by a lot. first off i dont care about money. she can take it all i dont give a ****. ive made 6 figures for 15 years and still dont care about it. i live extremely frugaly and would take love and happiness over material things. secondly iv given nothing but unconditional love since we met 10+ years ago. we waited to marry because we met in school. im trying to get advice to make it work not simply walk away from the woman of my dreams and my beautiful baby and all our decade+ long memories. i miss her terrible. so much my heart physically aches. i see her in my visions, in my dreams, smiling, dancing, laughing, and looking at me with pure love and saying "will you always love me like this?" i miss her terribly. the woman i see today is a different human and it breaks my heart. i still believe she is in there somewhere. i know it. but something drastic has to change. can i give an ultimatum to leave her business and partner? he is the devil and he turned her into this person. i hate him.


[/QUOTE]

I really think you need to re-visit the "I don't care about $$" issue. You worked hard all your life and you are ok with being bankrupt ?? Rebuilding froms cratch ? All in the meantime, she ends up disrespecting you, falling out of love and taking all of your $$ so she can be well off and you will be in the poor house.

Again, you are lost in the 'betrayed spouse fog' where you are thinking too much with the heart and not enough with the mind. There are many fish in the sea if she kills the marriage. 

You need to start reading more about co-dependency, listening to your IC more and legally preparing yourself for an ultimate divorce. If things shake out between now and that final date, you can reverse. In the meantime, file


----------



## Relationship Teacher

bfree said:


> First you say that anger works against a fighter, then when I challenge that point you say it doesn't and that you never said that.You flip-flop and make no sense.


Saying that anger works against a fighter is not the same as saying to replace anger with compassion _in a fight_. In my book, I explain that anger has no real purpose in _romantic relationships.
_
:wink2:


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> I didn't say that _fighters _should replace anger with positive emotions.
> 
> *I was trained in military combat and kickboxing....... I am not without personal experience.*
> 
> 
> 
> There certainly are uses for negativity, but in contexts I am not speaking of.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite.


you were _trained_ in military combat, and that gives you personal experience?

well, it certainly gives you the experience of having been _trained_... have you ever actually used it? have you ever had to fight for your life, or engage in military combat? im assuming you mean the shoot,move,communicate,kill kind of military combat. or do you mean a military martial arts?

you have stated that the situations that i have brought up are not situations that you deal with personally. and, that your partner knows that 99% of the time they are most likely to get what they want from you by being nice. you haven't really stated any of your own actual experiences in similar situations. 

as im sure you know, people relate to real life stories. if you have some, where a client of yours was going through a similar issue with a spouse or partner that was doing the same things as chunderbunders wife is doing, or perhaps even your own past experiences, why not share them? give people an idea of how it actually works?

can you give an example of where your approach has helped someone overcome such issues in a relationship? you would need to include enough detail for the reader to be able picture it working in their own situations, or else they will simply come to the conclusion that you are not accurately speaking to their situation. 

i would prefer to get your message through anecdote rather than from one line quotes from and allusions to your book... it may not be not be your intent, but quoting your book gives the impression that your intentions are to sell a book rather than to help. however, if anyone else feels differently on this matter, feel free to correct me on that.


----------



## tech-novelist

chunderbunder said:


> i have other posts in the "considering seperation" forum, but i noticed I was getting really biased responses there, all saying "leave her", "divorce her", etc. so i thought id try here and see what you think.
> 
> i dont want to make this too long, but bottom line in my wife became rich and powerful in a very cuttthroat and insane hollywood industry. she has a whole staff of people that work for her and she is the final say on everything. no one checks her in any way. she began bringing this aggressive and dominant attitude home about 5 years ago.
> 
> its been a brutal ride. im a good and honest and hard working husband that devoted my life to her and giving her everything. we had some wonderful years together. but she changed...drastically. she can no longer handle ANYTHING deemed as "criticism" and i dont mean something like "you look fat", as i would never say that....i mean something like "i feel neglected lately". she loses her temper and yells if you say ANYTHING to her that she doesnt like. she has also started eating poorly, doesnt exercise, and I cant say anything because then she loses it.
> 
> we are seeing a therapist who keeps focusing on our history and parents, etc, and although i think there is value in this, she is never asking the basic question to my wife, which is "do you even love him and care about him." i should mention that i do EVERYTHING for us, work full time, handle finances, bills, house stuff, cleaning, and even cooking dinners. she does not give ONE thing to our relationship. NOT ONE thing to me. she ignores me most days, only talking when she needs something or feels like it, and plays with our baby or puts on her headphones and watches netflix (when she isnt working). she is a good and loving mother, which is wierd, as she has so much compassion for our son, but none for me.
> 
> i dont get it. im tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return. i want to make this work and am trying but she isnt reciprocating. ive told the therapist this but she still focuses on broader and deeper things, rather than saying "hey, what you did when you ignored your husband 10x in one day...that was rude. you have to try to acknowledge him more." I dunno.
> 
> i miss her terribly. i pull up old photos of how humble and sweet and kind and loving and respectful she was and i cry. i cry daily. id give every dollar i have to get back to how she was and how we were. she was so sweet and this awful industry changed her. made her crave power and money and fame and all the fake hollywood BS. she no longer seems to understand that she too must GIVE something to a relationship.
> 
> any advice??


You can't change her and she doesn't want to change.

So the advice is: Divorce her and get lots of alimony.


----------



## As'laDain

technovelist said:


> You can't change her and she doesn't want to change.
> 
> So the advice is: Divorce her and get lots of alimony.


lol, well that is certainly an option. 
but honestly, there are plenty of things that OP can try that he hasnt tried yet. if he changes, she will. she wont have a choice in that. but he has to change first.

even if that means divorce.


----------



## tech-novelist

Idun said:


> Thanks  Unfortunately after reading OP's other thread I feel he's in the totally wrong place. It sounds like she is downright abusive, to me. And he is so beaten down and afraid of her, he's not able to change himself to better the relationship and put her in her place (i.e. acting like a real wife).
> 
> OP - you need individual counselling, and to 'find yourself' as a man again. If you stay the way you are and accept her behaviour, she will NEVER change. She has no reason to change - you think she loves you deep down and will start being nice because it's the "right thing" to do? But this has never happened and now with the baby you see how it's gone the opposite way. She is worse than ever.
> 
> Plus she will more than likely (if she hasn't already) have an affair with a man she does respect. If you believe you "can't" leave her because of X and Y - you should read this book Amazon.com: How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World eBook: Harry Browne: Books


That is a great book that everyone should read. Excellent suggestion!


----------



## Relationship Teacher

As'laDain said:


> you were _trained_ in military combat, and that gives you personal experience?
> 
> well, it certainly gives you the experience of having been _trained_... have you ever actually used it? have you ever had to fight for your life, or engage in military combat? im assuming you mean the shoot,move,communicate,kill kind of military combat. or do you mean a military martial arts?


-Yes, I was in combat. 
-And I have also had to use my kickboxing training as I have been attacked.





> can you give an example of where your approach has helped someone overcome such issues in a relationship? you would need to include enough detail for the reader to be able picture it working in their own situations, or else they will simply come to the conclusion that you are not accurately speaking to their situation.


I teach an entire mindset, not just how to handle difficult situations.

Do you want me to give you more information on the entire approach?


----------



## As'laDain

Relationship Teacher said:


> -Yes, I was in combat.
> -And I have also had to use my kickboxing training as I have been attacked.
> 
> 
> i would mention that over the training if i were you. nothing like hearing the new lui say "in my experience"...
> 
> 
> I teach an entire mindset, not just how to handle difficult situations.
> 
> Do you want me to give you more information on the entire approach?


you can explain the mindset through the situation. you have piqued my curiosity, so i would love to hear more of what you have to say. it may help the OP, or someone else. so far, you have been very vague. 

would you mind creating a thread on your approach?


----------



## bfree

As'laDain said:


> you can explain the mindset through the situation. you have piqued my curiosity, so i would love to hear more of what you have to say. it may help the OP, or someone else. so far, you have been very vague.
> 
> would you mind creating a thread on your approach?


I too would be interested in such a discussion in another thread so as to not threadjack this one.


----------



## sapientia

technovelist said:


> You can't change her and she doesn't want to change.
> 
> So the advice is: Divorce her and get lots of alimony.


This^ may well be the final course. But perhaps something else can be tried first?

As I understand, her behaviour is a recent change due to increased confidence and business success. You will never get her to give that up. She needs to grow up and through. With or without you.

Your story is the female equivalent of the old-school Tall Man syndrome. Women can suffer from this too. Here's a link you may find of interest. Note especially the part about how "motivation for growth usually comes initially from a spouse who has initiated a divorce."

Good luck.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...ss-can-breed-the-narcissism-tall-man-syndrome


----------



## cinnabomb

Wow. 4 pages of responses, im shocked. i think a little bit of sidetracking with the argument about emotions, but nevertheless, appreciate those of who who are trying to provide advice and assistance to me. It seems that there are 2 camps of people here:

1. Those who just say "divorce her"
2. Those who say I need to change the way I am, the way I react, act, etc. 

I'd like to respond by saying, I have come this far with her...10+ years....a wonderful baby. Good friends with similar aged babies. Many years of traveling the world and wonderful memories together. And we both adore each other families. It's a lot to give up and I'm not ready to until I have tried everything. So to the people in camp 1, I just want to say that there is more to try here. 

Im shocked by he consistency of a lot of the comments. I never knew that being a "nice guy" could be a bad thing. Maybe not a bad thing, but a self-destructive thing. I am getting a lot of criticism, saying that I have read NMMNG but I am not practicing it, but you have to give me a break because the truth is, I WANT to learn and grow and change....I just dont really know HOW. Reading a book and translating it into real life scenarios, when every cell in my body is saying to do the opposite, is very hard to do. Give me a break, please. Give me real world advice. 

I'd like to pose some actual scenarios and get your actual advice on how to handle it, in as much real detail as possible. Im just asking for some real-life help....things to try and see how it goes and give you feedback:

1. Her recent poor diet and lack of exercise - It makes me cringe every time she eats carbs and sugar for meals. Slices of bread, cereal, chips, etc. And then eats really unhealthy sugary foods too. It wouldnt bother me if she were fit like she always was, but she has put on like 20 pounds and has a big belly and its hard to find her attractive like this. Her mom is obese and gross and she is starting to look like her. How do I ACTUALLY handle this?? The next time she grabs a slice of bread instead of something healthy, do I say "honey eat something healthy instead". Because I have tried that and it just made her snap and say "IM HUNGRY I JUST WANT SOME BREAD!" or whatever and ignore me. Or do I try the nice approach and say "honey, you seem to be eating unhealthy stuff....is there a reason why? Do you have something on your mind?". I honestly dont know WTF im supposed to do. And how do I bring up her weight gain? Shes in denial, saying "I think Im 5 pounds overweight" when she gained about 20. How do I bring this up???

2. The lack of intimacy. She never initiates sex. Ever. But I can deal with that. But getting rejected 9/10 tries is getting frustrating. She has no understanding that I, as a man, NEED to ejaculate once or twice a day, at least once before bed. If I dont before bed, I will lay there and not sleep from frustration all night. She doesnt seem to understand that its a physical requirement...not just "im in the mood for sex". If I dont do it, it messes with my mind and my focus. This on top of the fact that I love her and enjoy it, and WANT to enjoy it with her as much as possible. I want to be closer to her in that way. She comes homw and the first thing she puts on are these ass ugly pajamas and pulls them up to her chin. Ive even asked her to not wear the pants in bed so i can feel her skin, but she refuses, despite the fact that its warm and we live in Cali, and that she kicks the blankets off every night from the heat anyways. She just wont seem to give in to anything that I try. And when we finally DO have sex, she isnt into it at all. Shes just there. She doesnt even make any sounds any more. And when I try to ask for a BJ, she has always refused so I dont even ask anymore. So I will usually happily settle for an HJ. At least its something, but even then thats only about 3/10 attempts that she complies. Most of the time I try to be playful and might grab her butt and kiss her and say "lets have a quickie" and she will laugh and say "no honey, not right now". Im getting tired of it, and its causing me to resent her and fantasize about a different and more fulfilling life with a woman who actually cares for me and wants to make me happy. I dont want to think like that. I want my soul-mate back. What do I do??? Please...actual examples. 

3. She can often be dismissive to me. Especially with idea I have for our child. I will say, lets put her in the crib for a nap, or whatever, and she will just steamroll me and say "no". I dont really know how to deal with this. She is really used to getting her way and being the final say at her office, but I am not going to deal with that but dont know the best way to approach it. The next time I have an idea and she doesnt want to have a conversation about it and just says "no", how do I deal with it??

4. Her business partner. This is a big one. She has crossed the line of what is considered an appropriate relationship with her partner. She tells him EVERYTHING and i mean everything. I hear them on the phone after work every day and he knows every detail of our daughter and her life. It makes me very uncomfortable. Its like he is her husband. She will tell him the most tiny detail and he knows everything that is going on. She should be sharing things with me, but most things she doesnt. Lately I am closed off, but rightfully so, but I dont think that I caused this. But maybe I am making it worse? What do I do about this? Also, there is a very small fear that she may be unfaithful but honestly I dont think its a high percentage. The ONLY reason I have an inkling of doubt is because she recently starting getting a bikini wax, and I have no clue why, as we arent intimate, and she doesnt wear bikinis or even swim. So WTF??? Anyways, what do you think on this one too?? 

thanks all this means a lot, it really does. I am going to try to stand up for myself. You are all right. I became weak and scared because I made my entire world revolve around her and the fear of losing her made me scared to stand up for myself. I did it because I thought I was being good, and romantic. I didnt know any better. I just loved her so much. I still do and want to fix this. Do you think its possible?


----------



## cinnabomb

One more thought. I thought about writing an email to her putting it all in writing, like this is what I need from you to be happy. Not necessarily an ultimatum, but more just.... I've thought about it a lot, I care for you deeply, but I'm not happy, and here's what I need from you to be happy.... And list things I would like and give her the chance to do the same. Thoughts?


----------



## EVG39

Look, here is the problem.
You ask for help, then people offer you very specific things to do that will help and then you come back and ask for real world examples? 
I gave you a real world example. You say you read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and was moved by it. I asked you if you did the "Breaking Free" exercises in the book. Doesn't look like you did because those exercises are the kind of real world things you could start doing today to change you. But you aren't interested in doing the exercises. 
And then immediately you give us three or four paragraphs about how upset you are with her behavior and her actions from what she eats to the way she disrespects you. Look she disrespects you, among other reasons, because you don't have a life, you exist in her orbit without any independent life of your own. At best you have been friend zoned by your own wife. At worst she regards you as an unworthy servant. Doesn't that make you boil? Aren't you livid when she talks to her "partner" about all the thing she should talk to you about? And she does it in front of you! 
Now get this none of this behavior changes till you change. Radically. 
Which is precisely why Dr. Glover wrote the exercises in the book!!! So for heavens sake do the exercises or not, but do decide today to stop being her toady.
And for the love of mike, don't write her an email or letter putting all "this" in writing unless you want to permanently kill whatever attraction she may have left for you. She would be disgusted by it.
Just STFU and start working on yourself. Right now.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> How do I ACTUALLY handle this?? The next time she grabs a slice of bread instead of something healthy, do I say "honey eat something healthy instead". Because I have tried that and it just made her snap and say "IM HUNGRY I JUST WANT SOME BREAD!" or whatever and ignore me. Or do I try the nice approach and say "honey, you seem to be eating unhealthy stuff....is there a reason why? Do you have something on your mind?". I honestly dont know WTF im supposed to do. And how do I bring up her weight gain? Shes in denial, saying "I think Im 5 pounds overweight" when she gained about 20. How do I bring this up???


Just be honest. "I love you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you, but your current choices as far as eating and gaining weight is driving me away. Apparently, an active, healthy-weight wife is one of my top Emotional Needs; I didn't realize it until you started gaining weight. And I'm going to be honest: I'm afraid you're going to keep gaining weight and become as overweight as your mother, and that scares me."

And then offer to discuss it in front of a therapist or whichever way she wants to address the issue.



> 2. The lack of intimacy. She never initiates sex. Ever. But I can deal with that. But getting rejected 9/10 tries is getting frustrating. She has no understanding that I, as a man, NEED to ejaculate once or twice a day, at least once before bed. If I dont before bed, I will lay there and not sleep from frustration all night. She doesnt seem to understand that its a physical requirement...not just "im in the mood for sex". If I dont do it, it messes with my mind and my focus.


Now, let me first address your contention that you 'must' ejaculate at least once or twice a day. That is not a need. That is a want. You WANT to do that, but many men here will tell you that you CAN survive for YEARS without that and survive. So at least be clear about that. Second, if you ARE taking care of business once or twice a day...trust me, she knows. And one of the biggest turn-offs for women is being 'told' that you'll go out and find another way to do it. You need to be having a real discussion about this. Now, it's common for women to lose desire, especially if the husband isn't still 'wooing' her, dating her, or he's become a Nice Guy - no woman wants to have sex with a Nice Guy. It's gross. So yes, tell her the truth. THIS IS A BIG DEAL and just might become a deal-BREAKER for you. Ask her what's missing for her to WANT to have sex with you.



> 3. She can often be dismissive to me. Especially with idea I have for our child. I will say, lets put her in the crib for a nap, or whatever, and she will just steamroll me and say "no". I dont really know how to deal with this.


"Wife, I am her parent, too, and I have just as much right to determine how she's taken care of. I'm putting her in her crib."



> 4. Her business partner. This is a big one. She has crossed the line of what is considered an appropriate relationship with her partner. She tells him EVERYTHING and i mean everything. I hear them on the phone after work every day and he knows every detail of our daughter and her life. It makes me very uncomfortable. Its like he is her husband.


He IS her husband. The one she respects. "Wife, I'm not comfortable with your emotional affair with your business partner. I know you don't agree, but it is an emotional affair. I'm happy to provide you proof. And as such, I want it to end. I want you to stop communicating with him all hours of the day, I want you to stop involving him in our lives, I want you to stop investing emotionally in him what should be going to me. I won't stay in the background any more and watch you carry on with this. If you won't agree to recommit to the marriage, you're going to find yourself getting divorced. I want a wife who loves ME and wants ME and tells ME everything, and if I'm not that person for you, then I'll have to go find someone who thinks I am."

Now, before you do all this, you need to take your copy of NMMNG, go to a therapist, tell him that you've been told you need to shed your Nice Guy status (hand him the book so he understands), and ask him to start giving you concrete steps to change. Because if you go to her right now, with you seeming so weak and unattractive, she'll just pack your bags for you. And also in the meantime, go back through the book AND DO THE HOMEWORK.

Bottom line, as it is, she doesn't need you. She can hire a babysitter, house cleaner, and cook to replace what you do. Until you can figure out how to be a NON Nice Guy, you won't get anywhere. 

Oh, and have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer yet? It's what you want to read AFTER you've started to incorporate NMMNG stuff.


----------



## bfree

Cb, you want some real life examples? You get yourself in shape. You take up hiking or swimming or some other physical fun activity. But she can't do it because she's out of shape. So you go without her. She gets left behind. Do you realize how much people hate it when someone close to them is involved in an activity they could share but they get left out? That might be all the motivation she needs in order to improve her diet and increase her activity level.

As far as sex is concerned, your mindset shouldn't be lamenting over her not wanting to have sex with you. Your mindset should be that she not only should want sex with you she should be looking for ways to convince you to bed her. She should be begging you to **** her. You know when that will come? When your confidence is sky high. When you know in your heart and mind that you can bed any woman. And you'll know when your confidence has hit that level when other women hit on you.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Your wife isn't into you. 

YOUR WIFE ISN'T INTO YOU!

Get it?

She's not attracted to you. She doesn't respect you.

She keeps you around, because it's less expensive than paying a nanny. And a D will cost her big $$.

That's your role. Housekeeper. Nanny.

The first question is: Why do you tolerate a relationship like this?

The second question is: What makes you think you can fix her behavior?


----------



## cinnabomb

This was super helpful, thank you for giving me real examples. I will work on this and try my best. 




turnera said:


> Just be honest. "I love you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you, but your current choices as far as eating and gaining weight is driving me away. Apparently, an active, healthy-weight wife is one of my top Emotional Needs; I didn't realize it until you started gaining weight. And I'm going to be honest: I'm afraid you're going to keep gaining weight and become as overweight as your mother, and that scares me."
> 
> And then offer to discuss it in front of a therapist or whichever way she wants to address the issue.
> 
> 
> Now, let me first address your contention that you 'must' ejaculate at least once or twice a day. That is not a need. That is a want. You WANT to do that, but many men here will tell you that you CAN survive for YEARS without that and survive. So at least be clear about that. Second, if you ARE taking care of business once or twice a day...trust me, she knows. And one of the biggest turn-offs for women is being 'told' that you'll go out and find another way to do it. You need to be having a real discussion about this. Now, it's common for women to lose desire, especially if the husband isn't still 'wooing' her, dating her, or he's become a Nice Guy - no woman wants to have sex with a Nice Guy. It's gross. So yes, tell her the truth. THIS IS A BIG DEAL and just might become a deal-BREAKER for you. Ask her what's missing for her to WANT to have sex with you.
> 
> "Wife, I am her parent, too, and I have just as much right to determine how she's taken care of. I'm putting her in her crib."
> 
> 
> He IS her husband. The one she respects. "Wife, I'm not comfortable with your emotional affair with your business partner. I know you don't agree, but it is an emotional affair. I'm happy to provide you proof. And as such, I want it to end. I want you to stop communicating with him all hours of the day, I want you to stop involving him in our lives, I want you to stop investing emotionally in him what should be going to me. I won't stay in the background any more and watch you carry on with this. If you won't agree to recommit to the marriage, you're going to find yourself getting divorced. I want a wife who loves ME and wants ME and tells ME everything, and if I'm not that person for you, then I'll have to go find someone who thinks I am."
> 
> Now, before you do all this, you need to take your copy of NMMNG, go to a therapist, tell him that you've been told you need to shed your Nice Guy status (hand him the book so he understands), and ask him to start giving you concrete steps to change. Because if you go to her right now, with you seeming so weak and unattractive, she'll just pack your bags for you. And also in the meantime, go back through the book AND DO THE HOMEWORK.
> 
> Bottom line, as it is, she doesn't need you. She can hire a babysitter, house cleaner, and cook to replace what you do. Until you can figure out how to be a NON Nice Guy, you won't get anywhere.
> 
> Oh, and have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer yet? It's what you want to read AFTER you've started to incorporate NMMNG stuff.


----------



## cinnabomb

There nothing wrong with asking asking for specifics. We are all here to learn, why so hostile? Yes I have tried breaking free. I work out with a trainer a couple times a week, I play basketball, etc, and go out with guys for drinks 1 or 2 times a week. 



EVG39 said:


> Look, here is the problem.
> You ask for help, then people offer you very specific things to do that will help and then you come back and ask for real world examples?
> I gave you a real world example. You say you read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and was moved by it. I asked you if you did the "Breaking Free" exercises in the book. Doesn't look like you did because those exercises are the kind of real world things you could start doing today to change you. But you aren't interested in doing the exercises.
> And then immediately you give us three or four paragraphs about how upset you are with her behavior and her actions from what she eats to the way she disrespects you. Look she disrespects you, among other reasons, because you don't have a life, you exist in her orbit without any independent life of your own. At best you have been friend zoned by your own wife. At worst she regards you as an unworthy servant. Doesn't that make you boil? Aren't you livid when she talks to her "partner" about all the thing she should talk to you about? And she does it in front of you!
> Now get this none of this behavior changes till you change. Radically.
> Which is precisely why Dr. Glover wrote the exercises in the book!!! So for heavens sake do the exercises or not, but do decide today to stop being her toady.
> And for the love of mike, don't write her an email or letter putting all "this" in writing unless you want to permanently kill whatever attraction she may have left for you. She would be disgusted by it.
> Just STFU and start working on yourself. Right now.


----------



## Thor

Stop asking permission or telling her what you are going to do. With the example of your child putting him/her in the crib, just do it. Don't ask what your wife thinks. Don't even tell her what you're going to do. Just do it.

A good example from my real life, on Saturday mornings I would watch a financial news story and eat breakfast. Then I would tell my wife I was going to take a shower. But it can appear as if I was asking for permission. My wife is very oritented to power dynamics, and she would respond with an "ok" which seemed more like she was giving permission than acknowledging a fact.

Stop asking your wife what she wants for dinner. Don't ask her for a decision or opinion. Either say nothing and just do it, or state definitively what you want. "I feel like a steak and salad tonight. Food will be on the table in 30 minutes, don't be late". Become declarative when you say something rather than asking her position, and be sure not to imply you are asking for her permission or agreement.


----------



## EVG39

Look, you asked for specific things to do and both Tunera and I referred you right back to Glover's book and the exercises therein. You thanked Tunera and accused me of being hostile. Do you know why you had that perception? Because Tunera spoke to you like a woman and I spoke to you in the language of men. Both ways of communicating are equally valid yet you were receptive to one and rejected the other. Want to know why? open up NMMMG and reread it. Read how Glover talks about how nice guys are detached from their masculinity, how they are uncomfortable relating to men and the world of men and instead seek to live for the approval of women. Then reflect not just on this thread but on your life in general and see if Glover isn't describing you to a "T". You don't hear me or the other men on this thread because you deny the masculinity in your own soul. And sadly thats primarily why your wife thinks she can treat you like a chamber maid and not a husband.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> This was super helpful, thank you for giving me real examples. I will work on this and try my best.


Great. So you have pulled out your NMMNG book and have outlined the exercises, and you are starting to put them in action? Give us specifics on how you are doing this.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Retread evg39's post please. This will benefit you and provide some the answers you seek


----------



## NotLikeYou

chunderbunder said:


> Wow. 4 pages of responses, im shocked. i think a little bit of sidetracking with the argument about emotions, but nevertheless, appreciate those of who who are trying to provide advice and assistance to me. It seems that there are 2 camps of people here:
> 
> 1. Those who just say "divorce her"
> 2. Those who say I need to change the way I am, the way I react, act, etc.
> 
> I'd like to respond by saying, I have come this far with her...10+ years....a wonderful baby. Good friends with similar aged babies. Many years of traveling the world and wonderful memories together. And we both adore each other families. It's a lot to give up and I'm not ready to until I have tried everything. So to the people in camp 1, I just want to say that there is more to try here.
> 
> Im shocked by he consistency of a lot of the comments. I never knew that being a "nice guy" could be a bad thing. Maybe not a bad thing, but a self-destructive thing. I am getting a lot of criticism, saying that I have read NMMNG but I am not practicing it, but you have to give me a break because the truth is, I WANT to learn and grow and change....I just dont really know HOW. Reading a book and translating it into real life scenarios, when every cell in my body is saying to do the opposite, is very hard to do. Give me a break, please. Give me real world advice.
> 
> I'd like to pose some actual scenarios and get your actual advice on how to handle it, in as much real detail as possible. Im just asking for some real-life help....things to try and see how it goes and give you feedback:
> 
> 1. Her recent poor diet and lack of exercise - It makes me cringe every time she eats carbs and sugar for meals. Slices of bread, cereal, chips, etc. And then eats really unhealthy sugary foods too. It wouldnt bother me if she were fit like she always was, but she has put on like 20 pounds and has a big belly and its hard to find her attractive like this. Her mom is obese and gross and she is starting to look like her. How do I ACTUALLY handle this?? The next time she grabs a slice of bread instead of something healthy, do I say "honey eat something healthy instead". Because I have tried that and it just made her snap and say "IM HUNGRY I JUST WANT SOME BREAD!" or whatever and ignore me. Or do I try the nice approach and say "honey, you seem to be eating unhealthy stuff....is there a reason why? Do you have something on your mind?". I honestly dont know WTF im supposed to do. And how do I bring up her weight gain? Shes in denial, saying "I think Im 5 pounds overweight" when she gained about 20. How do I bring this up???
> 
> 2. The lack of intimacy. She never initiates sex. Ever. But I can deal with that. But getting rejected 9/10 tries is getting frustrating. She has no understanding that I, as a man, NEED to ejaculate once or twice a day, at least once before bed. If I dont before bed, I will lay there and not sleep from frustration all night. She doesnt seem to understand that its a physical requirement...not just "im in the mood for sex". If I dont do it, it messes with my mind and my focus. This on top of the fact that I love her and enjoy it, and WANT to enjoy it with her as much as possible. I want to be closer to her in that way. She comes homw and the first thing she puts on are these ass ugly pajamas and pulls them up to her chin. Ive even asked her to not wear the pants in bed so i can feel her skin, but she refuses, despite the fact that its warm and we live in Cali, and that she kicks the blankets off every night from the heat anyways. She just wont seem to give in to anything that I try. And when we finally DO have sex, she isnt into it at all. Shes just there. She doesnt even make any sounds any more. And when I try to ask for a BJ, she has always refused so I dont even ask anymore. So I will usually happily settle for an HJ. At least its something, but even then thats only about 3/10 attempts that she complies. Most of the time I try to be playful and might grab her butt and kiss her and say "lets have a quickie" and she will laugh and say "no honey, not right now". Im getting tired of it, and its causing me to resent her and fantasize about a different and more fulfilling life with a woman who actually cares for me and wants to make me happy. I dont want to think like that. I want my soul-mate back. What do I do??? Please...actual examples.
> 
> 3. She can often be dismissive to me. Especially with idea I have for our child. I will say, lets put her in the crib for a nap, or whatever, and she will just steamroll me and say "no". I dont really know how to deal with this. She is really used to getting her way and being the final say at her office, but I am not going to deal with that but dont know the best way to approach it. The next time I have an idea and she doesnt want to have a conversation about it and just says "no", how do I deal with it??
> 
> 4. Her business partner. This is a big one. She has crossed the line of what is considered an appropriate relationship with her partner. She tells him EVERYTHING and i mean everything. I hear them on the phone after work every day and he knows every detail of our daughter and her life. It makes me very uncomfortable. Its like he is her husband. She will tell him the most tiny detail and he knows everything that is going on. She should be sharing things with me, but most things she doesnt. Lately I am closed off, but rightfully so, but I dont think that I caused this. But maybe I am making it worse? What do I do about this? Also, there is a very small fear that she may be unfaithful but honestly I dont think its a high percentage. The ONLY reason I have an inkling of doubt is because she recently starting getting a bikini wax, and I have no clue why, as we arent intimate, and she doesnt wear bikinis or even swim. So WTF??? Anyways, what do you think on this one too??
> 
> thanks all this means a lot, it really does. I am going to try to stand up for myself. You are all right. I became weak and scared because I made my entire world revolve around her and the fear of losing her made me scared to stand up for myself. I did it because I thought I was being good, and romantic. I didnt know any better. I just loved her so much. I still do and want to fix this. Do you think its possible?


Oh, Jesus Christ.

Put me firmly beside EVG in being concerned about your masculinity.

Okay, since you have posed REAL SCENARIOS, I will give you REAL advice on how to handle these situations in REAL LIFE.

1) Stop "cringing." Men "cringe" when they witness tragedies. "OMG, she just put BUTTER on her TOAST" is NOT something to cringe about.

You should be having trouble finding her to be attractive because she treats you like a dog and yells at you. Finding her unattractive because she has put on 20 pounds is just an excuse for all the sex you're not getting (Oops, no skipping ahead to point 2).

How do you ACTUALLY handle it? Throw away all the unhealthy food? Jump up behind her, jiggle her love handles, say "And Leon's getting Larger," a la Airplane the Movie, and jump away before she punches you? Ask her what size she's wearing now that she's committed to being a bigger gal? Lose weight yourself, then laugh at her for being the heaviest person in her office? Slap her on the a$$ and tell her that you like the new look, there's more butt for you to slap?


Ways you should NOT handle it in real life include, uh, yep. Saying (and make sure you have a whine in your voice, here) "honey, please eat something healthy instead," is pretty much NOT the way to handle it.

The best thing to do is ignore it because you are focused on YOU. But since you can't do that, you bring it up like a man. When she says she's only 5 pounds overweight, you tell her to go get on the scale in front of you, because you think she's 40 pounds too heavy. A fight will ensue. But by overstating the weight gain, you will attack her self image and actually make her think about it.


2) Wait, I thought she was 20 pounds heavy and unattractive. Yet YOU get rejected. Uh huh.

The person who cares less about the relationship controls the relationship.

If I were you, I'd re-direct my attention to internet porn. You're getting crappy starfish sex, or helping hands as it is. Which is to say, you're getting just enough sex to make you miserable.

Stop giving her that power over you. Go buy a case of Kleenex at Costco and take matters into your own hands. Heh, heh. I can't believe I just typed that.


3) Well, it depends. If you want to put your baby down in the crib for a nap, try "not asking!" Yes, now you, too, can make small decisions on your own without consulting with your wife. Eventually, you can work your way up to changing diapers without permission, and getting the kid a bottle that you warm to a temperature YOU find acceptable. 


4) Yeah, it sucks to be replaced by a more manly man. That kind of nicely explains why everyone recommends that you divorce. And unfortunately, it also explains why you don't want to hear any of that kind of crazy talk.

You probably haven't actually put much thought into this. A bikini wax is a kind of uncomfortable procedure. It involves having hairs ripped out of a sensitive section of a woman's body. It is painful. And it's not really something that women do when their magic box is not being used.

So if she's getting this done, it's not just because she likes to feel the breeze. It's because she likes other sensations down there. Sensations that are NOT being provided by you.

In REAL LIFE, REAL MEN do not accept their wife emotionally bonding with other men, and getting their privates waxed when they are not having sex with their husbands.




Yes, Chunder, being a nice guy can be a bad thing. It makes women think less of you. Being a nice guy is easy. That's why you have done it, and that's why you're where you're at in your marriage.

So. You got lots of "divorce her" advice, and you don't much like that because it scares you really a lot, so you want to see what other advice is out there.

I advise you to stay put. Lots of advantages to that course of action. You have a roof over your head, and you get to hang around your child, and maybe a couple of other kids your wife will have, down the road. You don't have to change much- you can stay just like you are. Until your wife gets tired of it. But maybe she won't! You get to keep adoring your in-laws. You get to stay comfortable. You can probably sell, cover, or otherwise dispose of any mirrors in the house, so you won't have to look at yourself. You've been in this for 10 years, almost 5 of them good, and the Sunk-Cost Fallacy is so damned attractive.


5) Yeah, you didn't actually pose 5 REAL LIFE scenarios. I'm just adding this in because you need it.

Shut. Up. Stop talking to her. Stop asking her how her day was. Stop asking her if she thinks it's okay for you to put the baby in the crib. Stop asking her if she REALLY needs all those carbs. Stop talking to her. Resist the urge. LISTEN to what she SAYS. WATCH what she DOES.

You're a grown man. God gave you a brain. If you start using it, instead of wallowing in your feelings, there is a good chance that you can figure out what is going on, and how to improve your situation. 

The only person who should be able to make you feel soft, weak, and inadequate, is YOU. Your wife is treating you like dirt because YOU let her. YOU do not respect yourself, so why should she respect you?

There is dignity in silence. So start doing something different by not talking to her. In fact, start doing the 180 and reclaiming your testicles (figuratively speaking).


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> Wow. 4 pages of responses, im shocked. i think a little bit of sidetracking with the argument about emotions, but nevertheless, appreciate those of who who are trying to provide advice and assistance to me. It seems that there are 2 camps of people here:
> 
> 1. Those who just say "divorce her"
> 2. Those who say I need to change the way I am, the way I react, act, etc.


These are basically the only options you have, since you can't change her. But! There is always cause and effect or action and reaction. She will change if you change, she may not change into the wife you want but she will definitely change. Your behavior affects her behavior and this is true in all relationships. You have to have dealbreakers in relationships or your partner will know they can treat you like sh!t and you wont do anything about it. It's hard to change yourself once you're in a long term relationship because we start to think 'i should be able to be myself' or 'they know me by now' or 'it's game-playing'. These are all true, but it doesn't matter!  She has to learn to respect you or you will be setting yourself up for failure or a miserable marriage. Games are only games until the reasons behind them become sincere and they will after time. 



chunderbunder said:


> Im shocked by he consistency of a lot of the comments. I never knew that being a "nice guy" could be a bad thing. Maybe not a bad thing, but a self-destructive thing. I am getting a lot of criticism, saying that I have read NMMNG but I am not practicing it, but you have to give me a break because the truth is, I WANT to learn and grow and change....I just dont really know HOW. Reading a book and translating it into real life scenarios, when every cell in my body is saying to do the opposite, is very hard to do. Give me a break, please. Give me real world advice.


There's nothing wrong with being a nice person, there _is_ something wrong with being a doormat. If you are avoiding having a talk with her because you are afraid of her reaction, that's a problem. If you let her belittle you, that's a problem. If you allow her to maintain a close relationship with a male outside the marriage that troubles you, that's a problem. It's very simple but it seems hard, if she does something that you are not ok with, tell her and don't be afraid of her reaction. But don't be weak when you are confronting her! Don't be aggressive, either! Be assertive, calm and confident in yourself. If she gets out of hand, say I'm not going to talk to you when you are being unreasonable and walk away.



chunderbunder said:


> 1. Her recent poor diet and lack of exercise - It makes me cringe every time she eats carbs and sugar for meals. Slices of bread, cereal, chips, etc. And then eats really unhealthy sugary foods too. It wouldnt bother me if she were fit like she always was, but she has put on like 20 pounds and has a big belly and its hard to find her attractive like this. Her mom is obese and gross and she is starting to look like her. How do I ACTUALLY handle this?? The next time she grabs a slice of bread instead of something healthy, do I say "honey eat something healthy instead". Because I have tried that and it just made her snap and say "IM HUNGRY I JUST WANT SOME BREAD!" or whatever and ignore me. Or do I try the nice approach and say "honey, you seem to be eating unhealthy stuff....is there a reason why? Do you have something on your mind?". I honestly dont know WTF im supposed to do. And how do I bring up her weight gain? Shes in denial, saying "I think Im 5 pounds overweight" when she gained about 20. How do I bring this up???


Who does the shopping and cooking? If it's you, start buying healthy stuff and try to get her to do activities with you. Go for a walk, take the baby to a park, make a bet with her about who would win a marathon and train together.



chunderbunder said:


> 2. The lack of intimacy. She never initiates sex. Ever. But I can deal with that. But getting rejected 9/10 tries is getting frustrating. She has no understanding that I, as a man, NEED to ejaculate once or twice a day, at least once before bed. If I dont before bed, I will lay there and not sleep from frustration all night. She doesnt seem to understand that its a physical requirement...not just "im in the mood for sex". If I dont do it, it messes with my mind and my focus. This on top of the fact that I love her and enjoy it, and WANT to enjoy it with her as much as possible. I want to be closer to her in that way. She comes homw and the first thing she puts on are these ass ugly pajamas and pulls them up to her chin. Ive even asked her to not wear the pants in bed so i can feel her skin, but she refuses, despite the fact that its warm and we live in Cali, and that she kicks the blankets off every night from the heat anyways. She just wont seem to give in to anything that I try. And when we finally DO have sex, she isnt into it at all. Shes just there. She doesnt even make any sounds any more. And when I try to ask for a BJ, she has always refused so I dont even ask anymore. So I will usually happily settle for an HJ. At least its something, but even then thats only about 3/10 attempts that she complies. Most of the time I try to be playful and might grab her butt and kiss her and say "lets have a quickie" and she will laugh and say "no honey, not right now". Im getting tired of it, and its causing me to resent her and fantasize about a different and more fulfilling life with a woman who actually cares for me and wants to make me happy. I dont want to think like that. I want my soul-mate back. What do I do??? Please...actual examples.


Are you ever romantic or touchy without it being 'sex contingent'? If you have a kid, she's probably be pawed at a lot and might want a break. Do you give her a hug in the morning without grabbing her ass? Sometimes men think they are being affectionate but women just feel like the men are doing it in an attempt to get sex. Maybe you could try nonsexual touch with her to get some close feeling and she wont think you are just after sex. Hold her hand when you're walking, give her a hug when she gets home or is going somewhere. 



chunderbunder said:


> 3. She can often be dismissive to me. Especially with idea I have for our child. I will say, lets put her in the crib for a nap, or whatever, and she will just steamroll me and say "no". I dont really know how to deal with this. She is really used to getting her way and being the final say at her office, but I am not going to deal with that but dont know the best way to approach it. The next time I have an idea and she doesnt want to have a conversation about it and just says "no", how do I deal with it??


This is where you grow a pair and demand respect. It's your child too isn't it? Maybe you should put a specific example and it may be easier to help offer advice on this.



chunderbunder said:


> 4. Her business partner. This is a big one. She has crossed the line of what is considered an appropriate relationship with her partner. She tells him EVERYTHING and i mean everything. I hear them on the phone after work every day and he knows every detail of our daughter and her life. It makes me very uncomfortable. Its like he is her husband. She will tell him the most tiny detail and he knows everything that is going on. She should be sharing things with me, but most things she doesnt. Lately I am closed off, but rightfully so, but I dont think that I caused this. But maybe I am making it worse? What do I do about this? Also, there is a very small fear that she may be unfaithful but honestly I dont think its a high percentage. The ONLY reason I have an inkling of doubt is because she recently starting getting a bikini wax, and I have no clue why, as we arent intimate, and she doesnt wear bikinis or even swim. So WTF??? Anyways, what do you think on this one too??


Have you told her you don't like her sharing your personal life with a professional associate? You two are disconnected and she is substituting him into your role. Regardless of the cause, it needs to stop. I think you need to have a serious discussion with her and tell her your marriage is in serious trouble and things need to change. Make her understand the utter direness of the situation. Then stop talking and start acting.


----------



## cinnabomb

exactly why I am asking for examples....because I dont genuinely KNOW how to act in these situations. If you cant understand that, then so be it. yelling BE A MAN doesnt help because my perception of what a man is supposed to be is obviously different than yours, glovers, etc. 




EVG39 said:


> Look, you asked for specific things to do and both Tunera and I referred you right back to Glover's book and the exercises therein. You thanked Tunera and accused me of being hostile. Do you know why you had that perception? Because Tunera spoke to you like a woman and I spoke to you in the language of men. Both ways of communicating are equally valid yet you were receptive to one and rejected the other. Want to know why? open up NMMMG and reread it. Read how Glover talks about how nice guys are detached from their masculinity, how they are uncomfortable relating to men and the world of men and instead seek to live for the approval of women. Then reflect not just on this thread but on your life in general and see if Glover isn't describing you to a "T". You don't hear me or the other men on this thread because you deny the masculinity in your own soul. And sadly thats primarily why your wife thinks she can treat you like a chamber maid and not a husband.


----------



## cinnabomb

the really hard part is that I now have to retrain myself, each time i talk, ask a question, make a statement, make a decision, etc. Im so used to be the "nice guy" that I lost myself in there somewhere, thinking I was doing the right thing. 

So now, before I say "what are you in the mood for dinner" now, I just make the reservation. Or instead of wimping out and not saying something I disapprove of, im trying to vocalize myself. its not easy. it really isnt. her anger issues and hostility make those conversations awkward and hard. Im also focusing time on the betterment of myself....working out, joining a basketball league, making new friends, etc. 

I just miss her and hope this is all for something. Or Do we not have a chance at all? The one really wierd thing I forgot to mention is that when she is around her family, she is much nicer and more pleasant and nurturing. Is this all women? Whats up with that???



turnera said:


> Great. So you have pulled out your NMMNG book and have outlined the exercises, and you are starting to put them in action? Give us specifics on how you are doing this.


----------



## cinnabomb

thanks. so yes when it comes to sexual needs, i gladly take care of myself. she doesnt "have" that over me....but sex...connecting....isnt the same as self-pleasure. you know what I mean. Also, I already barely talk to her. Its been this way awhile now. Sometimes she ignores me....most of the time, actually, and sometimes she seems oblivious and will still talk to me as if everything is fine. like "oh look honey what our baby did!". a lot of that, actually. she will even say the words i love you to me, multiple times a day on IM or in person. Im just not sure its sincere. I dont know. 



NotLikeYou said:


> Oh, Jesus Christ.
> 
> Put me firmly beside EVG in being concerned about your masculinity.
> 
> Okay, since you have posed REAL SCENARIOS, I will give you REAL advice on how to handle these situations in REAL LIFE.
> 
> 1) Stop "cringing." Men "cringe" when they witness tragedies. "OMG, she just put BUTTER on her TOAST" is NOT something to cringe about.
> 
> You should be having trouble finding her to be attractive because she treats you like a dog and yells at you. Finding her unattractive because she has put on 20 pounds is just an excuse for all the sex you're not getting (Oops, no skipping ahead to point 2).
> 
> How do you ACTUALLY handle it? Throw away all the unhealthy food? Jump up behind her, jiggle her love handles, say "And Leon's getting Larger," a la Airplane the Movie, and jump away before she punches you? Ask her what size she's wearing now that she's committed to being a bigger gal? Lose weight yourself, then laugh at her for being the heaviest person in her office? Slap her on the a$$ and tell her that you like the new look, there's more butt for you to slap?
> 
> 
> Ways you should NOT handle it in real life include, uh, yep. Saying (and make sure you have a whine in your voice, here) "honey, please eat something healthy instead," is pretty much NOT the way to handle it.
> 
> The best thing to do is ignore it because you are focused on YOU. But since you can't do that, you bring it up like a man. When she says she's only 5 pounds overweight, you tell her to go get on the scale in front of you, because you think she's 40 pounds too heavy. A fight will ensue. But by overstating the weight gain, you will attack her self image and actually make her think about it.
> 
> 
> 2) Wait, I thought she was 20 pounds heavy and unattractive. Yet YOU get rejected. Uh huh.
> 
> The person who cares less about the relationship controls the relationship.
> 
> If I were you, I'd re-direct my attention to internet porn. You're getting crappy starfish sex, or helping hands as it is. Which is to say, you're getting just enough sex to make you miserable.
> 
> Stop giving her that power over you. Go buy a case of Kleenex at Costco and take matters into your own hands. Heh, heh. I can't believe I just typed that.
> 
> 
> 3) Well, it depends. If you want to put your baby down in the crib for a nap, try "not asking!" Yes, now you, too, can make small decisions on your own without consulting with your wife. Eventually, you can work your way up to changing diapers without permission, and getting the kid a bottle that you warm to a temperature YOU find acceptable.
> 
> 
> 4) Yeah, it sucks to be replaced by a more manly man. That kind of nicely explains why everyone recommends that you divorce. And unfortunately, it also explains why you don't want to hear any of that kind of crazy talk.
> 
> You probably haven't actually put much thought into this. A bikini wax is a kind of uncomfortable procedure. It involves having hairs ripped out of a sensitive section of a woman's body. It is painful. And it's not really something that women do when their magic box is not being used.
> 
> So if she's getting this done, it's not just because she likes to feel the breeze. It's because she likes other sensations down there. Sensations that are NOT being provided by you.
> 
> In REAL LIFE, REAL MEN do not accept their wife emotionally bonding with other men, and getting their privates waxed when they are not having sex with their husbands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Chunder, being a nice guy can be a bad thing. It makes women think less of you. Being a nice guy is easy. That's why you have done it, and that's why you're where you're at in your marriage.
> 
> So. You got lots of "divorce her" advice, and you don't much like that because it scares you really a lot, so you want to see what other advice is out there.
> 
> I advise you to stay put. Lots of advantages to that course of action. You have a roof over your head, and you get to hang around your child, and maybe a couple of other kids your wife will have, down the road. You don't have to change much- you can stay just like you are. Until your wife gets tired of it. But maybe she won't! You get to keep adoring your in-laws. You get to stay comfortable. You can probably sell, cover, or otherwise dispose of any mirrors in the house, so you won't have to look at yourself. You've been in this for 10 years, almost 5 of them good, and the Sunk-Cost Fallacy is so damned attractive.
> 
> 
> 5) Yeah, you didn't actually pose 5 REAL LIFE scenarios. I'm just adding this in because you need it.
> 
> Shut. Up. Stop talking to her. Stop asking her how her day was. Stop asking her if she thinks it's okay for you to put the baby in the crib. Stop asking her if she REALLY needs all those carbs. Stop talking to her. Resist the urge. LISTEN to what she SAYS. WATCH what she DOES.
> 
> You're a grown man. God gave you a brain. If you start using it, instead of wallowing in your feelings, there is a good chance that you can figure out what is going on, and how to improve your situation.
> 
> The only person who should be able to make you feel soft, weak, and inadequate, is YOU. Your wife is treating you like dirt because YOU let her. YOU do not respect yourself, so why should she respect you?
> 
> There is dignity in silence. So start doing something different by not talking to her. In fact, start doing the 180 and reclaiming your testicles (figuratively speaking).


----------



## cinnabomb

one of the things im struggling with right now is how to be, around her, in general. the therapist says to be loving and open and honest blah blah, but you guys say to be more independent and dont talk to her and ignore her. im just confused. typically im an affectionate person who llikes to be close to her, cuddle, hold hands, talk a lot, etc, but im become numb over the years after all the neglect, so now im withdrawn, dont initiate much conversation with her, dont initiate as much affection, etc. this doesnt seem to work either. it seems like neither option works. if im too generous with love, i spoil her and im taken for granted. if I am withdrawn, she sees me as depressed, cold, etc, and doesnt want anything to do with me. im confused.


----------



## Thor

Be independent of her. Don't be cold or depressed. Be happy and enthused, but about stuff in your own separate life. Go out and do stuff you like to do. Ride your bicycle, go for a hike in the hills. Put the baby in a backpack and take her for that hike. Go to an open mic Thursday night. Look on meetup dot com for interest groups. There is likely to be a No More Mr. Nice Guy group nearby. If you're in a church, join a men's group or start one up there. My wife's church had a men's beer night. If you play an instrument, or want to sing, there are innumerable music get togethers on meetup. If you're near the beach, take up beach volleyball. Presumably you two have enough money to hire some domestic help. Hire someone to clean the house once or twice per week. Husbands who do all the housework frequently lose the respect of their wife. You can cook some, and you can do your laundry and the child's laundry. But don't be your wife's maid and housekeeper. That can be death to her ability to find you sexually attractive. Use the extra time to go do stuff you want to do.

Take the baby with you when you can. Don't tell your wife what you're doing all the time, and don't come home telling her all about it.

The thing is to be seen by her as busy and happy with your own life. You're not doing this to get her to notice you, you're doing it to have the best life you can on your own. If she is into you, she'll notice you're finding a fun elsewhere, and that will worry her. She'll make an effort to get back into your life. If she doesn't get scared and try to get back into your life, you will know by her behavior that she isn't into you.

This is hard because you have to be as detached emotionally as you can from her. Not rude or ugly, but detached. She's no longer your best buddy, so you don't come home and tell her all about what you did. You naturally want to be close to her, and for you it likely means spending time with her and having conversations about things. For a while you have to cut that out. And don't approach her for sex.

I recommend the forums over on nomoremrniceguy.com/forums as a good place to get ideas on specific situations that come up.


----------



## Thor

Does your wife have any trauma history? I can't remember if I've asked this already, sorry if it is a repeat. Any child sex abuse, physically or emotionally abusive parent, parent with substance abuse, extremely strict parent? Was she raised in a very high achieving family with little warmth? Workaholic parents?


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> the really hard part is that I now have to retrain myself, each time i talk, ask a question, make a statement, make a decision, etc. Im so used to be the "nice guy" that I lost myself in there somewhere, thinking I was doing the right thing.
> 
> So now, before I say "what are you in the mood for dinner" now, I just make the reservation. Or instead of wimping out and not saying something I disapprove of, im trying to vocalize myself. its not easy. it really isnt. her anger issues and hostility make those conversations awkward and hard. Im also focusing time on the betterment of myself....working out, joining a basketball league, making new friends, etc.
> 
> I just miss her and hope this is all for something. Or Do we not have a chance at all? The one really wierd thing I forgot to mention is that when she is around her family, she is much nicer and more pleasant and nurturing. Is this all women? Whats up with that???


So it's not about just doing whatever the hell you want. It's about doing what you want but including her in the process - without ASKING her permission. Ask her what she thinks about something, but don't be afraid to do what YOU want anyway, if she's not being realistic or fair.

If you go back and reread NMMNG, you'll see that the changes are to be made because they're the right thing to do, not 'to get her back.' As long as you do things 'to get something' - i.e. make your woman want you more, YOU WILL FAIL. Because that makes you desperate and it makes you do things not because it's the right thing to do, but because you get a result.

Your goal should be to just become a strong, confident, happy man, with or without her. And you don't seem to know what that looks like, so I'd suggest you seek out other men in your life to be around and learn to be strong from.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> one of the things im struggling with right now is how to be, around her, in general. the therapist says to be loving and open and honest blah blah, but you guys say to be more independent and dont talk to her and ignore her.


You are misreading. We do NOT say to not talk to her or ignore her. Read the book again. NON-Nice Guys are confident, open to talk but NOT to ask permission. They say what they feel without fear of her reaction. They do what they want (without being rude) without fear of her reaction. They include her in their plans, but if she says no, they shrug and say 'ok, have fun with whatever you're doing; I'll be back later.'

Do you see the difference? We ARE telling you to do the same thing as your therapist. Why don't you print this thread out and give it to him?


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## TheTruthHurts

If it's any consolation, OP, I see this behavior in all aspects of life.

I live in the suburbs, and there are specific vehicles people drive, specific clothes people wear, specific styles of houses people live in.

My wife has to clue me in on this because otherwise I don't see it. I am a VP and we make a few hundred k as a couple but I drive a shi77y car because I don't value wasting my money on a capital asset that will depreciate only to take me a mile to the train station.

I do what I want and I am pretty content. Some around me also do what they want. Many / most live their lives in fear - fear of not fitting in or of not having a big enough house or the right car

They don't realize they live in this fear as you probably don't either. They don't realize they can drive a crappy car and still respect themselves fully and demand respect from others. They don't know how to say no to a boss and leave a meeting saying "I'm going to go see my son play water polo" while the rest of the team works late but do it with self assurance that they've done their work for the day so family is a higher priority now.

Happens in all aspects of life.

I think your REAL first step is to just visualize what you might even want. Really want. Maybe not that nice new car that you've seen - maybe you just want to get around and think - "hey, come to think of it I really would kind of like to have a '68 Nova and an Indian motorcycle for the same money". IDK - but maybe you would really enjoy something like that. Even if you've never ridden - why not?

What we're saying is figure it out for today. Then really think about it and do it. Then when you tell W don't let her response have ANY impact on YOUR part of the decision. It's just you inviting her into your enjoyable task. She can hate it - you can still respect that and politely say that - but stick to your idea anyway.

It's about being a whole integrated man and inviting your wife to participate in your life. And when she does things you have the option of saying "hey I'll join you" or "have a good time; I think I'll pass" without fanfare or apologizing. It also means reconsidering if one or the other asks you to reconsider, out of mutual respect.

I haven't read these books but this is what I've gathered and how I live my life.


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## pink_lady

This is what I was thinking when I was reading the OP's post as well.


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## cinnabomb

she has some pretty severe issues with her parents, mom specifically. she always felt her mom was never around for her and that she was always alone. so now she has a lot of resentment. 



Thor said:


> Does your wife have any trauma history? I can't remember if I've asked this already, sorry if it is a repeat. Any child sex abuse, physically or emotionally abusive parent, parent with substance abuse, extremely strict parent? Was she raised in a very high achieving family with little warmth? Workaholic parents?


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## Thor

So she probably has some issues related to her upbringing. This is only interesting to you from the standpoint of informing you it is not your fault nor is it your problem to fix. At least her part of it isn't yours to fix. You can use this information to try to wake her up and get her into MC and/or IC to deal with her side of the marital problems.

Workaholics and very high achievers frequently do have psych issues they are running from in some way. I bet your wife has abandonment issues and is making herself an island to avoid people abandoning her. Though in reality her actions are causing exactly what she fears! Imho your wife has some pretty significant psych issues which is causing this behavior from her. She has a template for what she thinks life, marriage, and family are, and that template is screwed up.

Your wife has some warped ideas of what is desirable in life, and what constitutes a successful life. At least to our understanding she is a bit off kilter. She may view money as a measure of achievement rather than, for example, having a happy vibrant family as a measure of achievement. Or, she may view being professionally successful as a substitute for real friendships. She may not know how to have real friendships. Being successful makes her popular and in demand within a group of people she admires.

There are deep issues which she has to look at before she will change. It won't be easy for her to do. You can't Nice her into doing it either. You can't lead by example in terms of you going to IC or MC and hoping she gets the hint. At some point she has to be challenged on what her priorities and goals are in life.

And she may decide she likes being professionally successful and not being emotionally close to her husband. Just because that is what you want of her doesn't mean she will ever want it. Maybe she used to, or maybe not. But right now she is caught up in her professional world. You're just a stage prop or the hired help.

The answer is for you to detach the emotional hose from her and build your own life.


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## TheTruthHurts

Thor QFT without the quotes (mobile app doesn't have the nice "I agree" emojis so I have to do  )


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## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> the really hard part is that I now have to retrain myself, each time i talk, ask a question, make a statement, make a decision, etc. Im so used to be the "nice guy" that I lost myself in there somewhere, thinking I was doing the right thing.


Exactly! You need to retrain yourself! 



chunderbunder said:


> So now, before I say "what are you in the mood for dinner" now, I just make the reservation.


Or you say 'I am in the mood for Chinese'. I think you are mistaking being confident and self assured for being a d!ck. They are very different things. 



chunderbunder said:


> Or instead of wimping out and not saying something I disapprove of, im trying to vocalize myself. its not easy. it really isnt. her anger issues and hostility make those conversations awkward and hard.


Ignoring it and rolling over isn't going to make those conversations get any easier.



chunderbunder said:


> Im also focusing time on the betterment of myself....working out, joining a basketball league, making new friends, etc.


Good!



chunderbunder said:


> The one really wierd thing I forgot to mention is that when she is around her family, she is much nicer and more pleasant and nurturing. Is this all women? Whats up with that???


It's called putting on a facade. One of my sisters is constantly on the outs with the family because she's kind of...well...a b!tch and has a temper more explosive than an atom bomb. She recently spent the first Christmas with us in years and was very nice and loving the entire time, also getting elaborate gifts for everyone. Sweet, right? Maybe she has finally changed!!! However! She also brought along her new boyfriend...so is the answer that she has finally changed and realized that you need to treat your family well? Or is it more likely that she is putting a show of 'happy family' for her boyfriend? This is kind of like your wife in reverse. 




chunderbunder said:


> I just miss her and hope this is all for something. Or Do we not have a chance at all?


You can whine all you want about it not being fair that you just thought you were making her happy and causing less waves by becoming a yes man. The truth is more likely that it became easier for _you_ to be a yes man. It can be hard to stand up for yourself in a relationship and it makes things flow more easily when you give up your identity and opinions so that your partner doesn't get mad or emotional. In the long run it doesn't work out so well, though. I cannot stress enough that _you teach people how to treat you!_ You have taught her through the last 10+ that you will accept disrespectful treatment from her and do nothing about it. You need to own your part in this situation and accept that for anything to change, _you_ must change.

I don't intend for this to be hurtful, but from a woman's perspective, you come off as kind of whiny, quite passive, fearful, indecisive and hesitant. If your wife has been getting these same feelings from you for years, is it possible she felt she had to become the leader in the relationship? A huge complaint in many of the women I know is that their husband is not the leader of the family. They ignore issues instead of handling them head-on, they just wait to be told where to go and when. We want a man who is strong and determined, not who we can steamroll over every time we raise our voices or implement a silent treatment. To be a port in the storm, a place of safety, to be strong _for _us. If you can become this, it will change your marriage, I'd bet money that your sex issues would be a thing of the past too. After all, what woman wants to [email protected] a whiny little b!tch?


----------



## turnera

Lilac23 said:


> A huge complaint in many of the women I know is that their husband is not the leader of the family.


This is SO true, and THE major problem in all the marriages I know where the woman is not happy. If you read His Needs Her Needs, you'll learn that a woman's top Emotional Need is usually security - which translates to physical safety, financial stability, domestic maintenance (doing the things women often can't), protecting them from mean people or bad situations...things we CAN do ourselves, but one of the main reasons we seek out a husband. And if that husband doesn't step up...we get resentful, and may not even know why; we just start to feel...unsettled. And sometimes angry. 

I'm mad as hell at my husband for getting us $100,000 in debt and then not accepting responsibility for it. And for having a car that hasn't been working right for a YEAR now, and instead of just finding the money to get it fixed, or doing it himself, he's been sharing my car, putting ME out. I didn't marry a man so I would have to be the one holding the whole family together. I was looking forward to feeling safe and secure.

That's probably what your wife is feeling.


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## jld

chunderbunder said:


> 4. Her business partner. This is a big one. She has crossed the line of what is considered an appropriate relationship with her partner. She tells him EVERYTHING and i mean everything. I hear them on the phone after work every day and he knows every detail of our daughter and her life. It makes me very uncomfortable. Its like he is her husband. She will tell him the most tiny detail and he knows everything that is going on. She should be sharing things with me, but most things she doesnt. Lately I am closed off, but rightfully so, but I dont think that I caused this. But maybe I am making it worse? What do I do about this? Also, there is a very small fear that she may be unfaithful but honestly I dont think its a high percentage. The ONLY reason I have an inkling of doubt is because she recently starting getting a bikini wax, and I have no clue why, as we arent intimate, and she doesnt wear bikinis or even swim. So WTF??? Anyways, what do you think on this one too??


That is the man she trusts. That is why she tells him everything.

OP, you need to become the man she trusts. 

What a woman trusts in a man might be individual to each woman. I personally do not trust men who are reactive, such as a man who would leave the room if I were angry. To me, that says I am too strong for him. He has to protect himself in some way from me by fleeing. 

How could I trust a man who has to protect himself from me? I am clearly not safe with him. Best to let him not only leave the room, but walk right out of my life. I would be better off alone.

A strong man, to me, stays in the room when his wife is angry. He is not threatened by her anger, and does not seek to control her. He seeks to understand her. Why is she upset? What is the root? 

To be able to seek this, he cannot take her anger personally. If it is about him, he acknowledges that, and thinks about how he can change to avoid provoking her in the future. He is open to her input.

If her anger is not about him, he simply seeks to understand. He helps her verbalize what she is fearing or hurt by. He listens, with empathy. He holds her, if appropriate. 

She soon comes to feel that she can tell him anything, and he will be understanding. He will neither be defensive nor reactive. His demeanor calms her. When she is ready to listen, he offers wise counsel.

Have you read _Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, _ OP? Great book for developing inner strength. The more inner strength you have, the more respect you will have for yourself, and the more respect your wife will have for you.


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## jld

turnera said:


> This is SO true, and THE major problem in all the marriages I know where the woman is not happy. If you read His Needs Her Needs, you'll learn that a woman's top Emotional Need is usually security - which translates to physical safety, financial stability, domestic maintenance (doing the things women often can't), protecting them from mean people or bad situations...things we CAN do ourselves, but one of the main reasons we seek out a husband. And if that husband doesn't step up...we get resentful, and may not even know why; we just start to feel...unsettled. And sometimes angry.
> 
> I'm mad as hell at my husband for getting us $100,000 in debt and then not accepting responsibility for it. And for having a car that hasn't been working right for a YEAR now, and instead of just finding the money to get it fixed, or doing it himself, he's been sharing my car, putting ME out. I didn't marry a man so I would have to be the one holding the whole family together. I was looking forward to feeling safe and secure.
> 
> That's probably what your wife is feeling.


I think this would make for a great thread, Turnera.


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## Thor

Lilac23 said:


> I don't intend for this to be hurtful, but from a woman's perspective, you come off as kind of whiny, quite passive, fearful, indecisive and hesitant. If your wife has been getting these same feelings from you for years, is it possible she felt she had to become the leader in the relationship? A huge complaint in many of the women I know is that their husband is not the leader of the family. They ignore issues instead of handling them head-on, they just wait to be told where to go and when. *We want a man who is strong and determined, not who we can steamroll over every time we raise our voices or implement a silent treatment.* To be a port in the storm, a place of safety, to be strong _for _us. If you can become this, it will change your marriage, I'd bet money that your sex issues would be a thing of the past too. After all, what woman wants to [email protected] a whiny little b!tch?


Aka the Sh1t Test.

Nice Guys are typically raised by their mom, not their father. Dad may be in the home but he doesn't raise his son with masculine traits. Mom does the vast majority of parenting. Dad doesn't lead by example. Dad doesn't take Jr. out to rough house in the back yard. Jr. doesn't have a bunch of adult male role models as he is growing up who show healthy masculine behaviors.

Junior never learns what a Sh1T Test is, nor how to handle it.

He does learn from Mom, his sisters, his friends' moms, his female school teachers, and pop culture tv shows that it is bad to make a female angry or hurt. And if a female is crying or in distress, it was his fault and he had better do something right now to fix it.

He is taught to fail the Sh1t Test. He is taught to cater to the females' every request or demand.

And then his wife complains he isn't the leader of the family, and that he isn't her rock in a storm.


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## Relationship Teacher

Thor said:


> Aka the Sh1t Test.
> 
> Nice Guys are typically raised by their mom, not their father. Dad may be in the home but he doesn't raise his son with masculine traits. Mom does the vast majority of parenting. Dad doesn't lead by example. Dad doesn't take Jr. out to rough house in the back yard. Jr. doesn't have a bunch of adult male role models as he is growing up who show healthy masculine behaviors.
> 
> Junior never learns what a Sh1T Test is, nor how to handle it.
> 
> He does learn from Mom, his sisters, his friends' moms, his female school teachers, and pop culture tv shows that it is bad to make a female angry or hurt. And if a female is crying or in distress, it was his fault and he had better do something right now to fix it.
> 
> He is taught to fail the Sh1t Test. He is taught to cater to the females' every request or demand.
> 
> And then his wife complains he isn't the leader of the family, and that he isn't her rock in a storm.


Many of the aforementioned traits are due to individuals being raised on conditional love. They learn that they have to please others in order to build their esteem. They can only be happy if others have a positive view of them. What is lost in all of this is that they have negative emotional reactions when they don't get what they (think) they need (affirmations from others).

Step 1 is to stop seeing everything through crap lenses. If you see crap, you feel it. Saying that one is no longer going to take their wife's crap is still missing the mark. If you see crap, you react to crap. 

Step 2 is acting in the same manner, regardless. Healthy relationships are characteristic of healthy interactions. Each individual is responsible for acting in a healthy manner. Participating in conflict, for any reason, only makes the relationship unhealthy. Reacting in a negative manner only gives justification for the defendant (alleged perpetrator) to commit further offenses. We disarm individuals with love and acceptance.

Step 3: welcome to a conflict free relationship

Why did I outline these steps? Look back at my first paragraph. Conditional love didn't work in childhood behavioral and emotional development and it sure doesn't work in romantic relationships.


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## Relationship Teacher

jld said:


> I like a lot of this, RT. I am not sure about not participating in conflict, though. I would agree that not returning fire for fire is wise. But I think that reacting with empathy is the way to start resolving conflict.
> 
> Maybe that is what you are saying?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Empathy is critical to step 1. To elaborate a bit, I would say that an individual that is reacting negatively is doing so for personal reasons, it just feels as if it is personal to us. Empathy helps to disassociate the string from their reaction to our unhappy lever.

How to react to an unhappy partner is really relationship dependent. Some individuals do want to talk things out and some don't. Regardless, the lines of communication have to remain open. Optimally, the relationship would be immediately back to full health when the unhappy partner got over their momentary distress. Seeing "crap", as I put it, keeps this from happening.

So, yes, we don't act as if nothing is wrong, we just don't take it personally. In place of taking it personally, we can see what they are taking personally. They are our partners, our favorite person on the planet. Should we not understand that they are suffering and need some compassion? Most of the typical negative emotional reactions that one will show is due to them expecting a conflicting reception from their partner. When they expect conflict, they gear up for battle.


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## TheTruthHurts

I disagree to some extent relationship teacher, unless I misunderstand you.

I believe healthy conflict is vital and necessary to promote honest feedback and expression versus repression of anger and issues.

If W is being manipulative by avoiding conflict by mplying I should be reacting a certain way to something, it's my JOB to call BS and let her know I own my own reactions, and if I react negatively because I feel a certain way, that's my right and obligation. I should be allowed to both feel and express.

Easier said than done I know because it's hard to say tough things to your spouse sometimes. But it's unfair to think something, keep it in, and build resentment.

It is far better to express it and then deal with the underlying issue.

I get that you prefer a zenlike state of goodbess and warmth in your life and relationships, but I believe that appearance can be false if we are suppressing our anger.

Ideally, if we are open to expressing things as they arise, they won't build and we won't be exploding - but we may have a bit of force, hurt, anger, whatever in our communication if that's what we feel.

The ideal response - IMO - is to be able to objectively listen and demonstrate understanding. Again - life doesn't work that way usually, but it's ok to vent back too.

Again - there is the concept of degree. Don't let things build so you don't explode. Don't try to own the others response so you don't internalize their anger and overreact.

This healthy expression should always be driven to a solution IMO - sometimes you might say "I can't deal with this now" but you have to come back and resolve it shortly (same day IMO). So a healthy expression and response should be followed by reflection, empathy, realignment of thinking based on the content of the discussion, and a hug with agreement or agreeing to respectfully disagree.

At least this is my zen state in my marriage - still working on it though (we're too "nice" sometimes to be honest).


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## TheTruthHurts

IDK maybe we are agreeing. I can't tell because this communication is to ethereal and indirect for my brain.


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## Relationship Teacher

TheTruthHurts said:


> I disagree to some extent relationship teacher, unless I misunderstand you.
> 
> 
> I believe healthy conflict is vital and necessary to promote honest feedback and expression versus repression of anger and issues.


Most believe in this, and I certainly understand where you come from. What most don't understand is that my mindset, that I embody and promote, eliminates almost all of the negative emotional reactions. Belief in conflict engenders conflict.




> If W is being manipulative by avoiding conflict by mplying I should be reacting a certain way to something, it's my JOB to call BS and let her know I own my own reactions, and if I react negatively because I feel a certain way, that's my right and obligation. I should be allowed to both feel and express.


Right, yes. Obligation, no.

This very common conflict resolution method is analogous to forcibly removing W's weapon. My advice is more analogous to them realizing that they should drop their own weapon.





> Easier said than done I know because it's hard to say tough things to your spouse sometimes. But it's unfair to think something, keep it in, and build resentment.


Absolutely. What I outlined is very dangerous if an individual is only keeping their reaction in. The most important thing is to master step 1. If anything is taken personally due to W's actions, then there must be a way to process the emotions. I promote processing the negativity by empowering one's logical mind. It WILL come out eventually if it remains bottled up.



> It is far better to express it and then deal with the underlying issue.
> 
> I get that you prefer a zenlike state of goodbess and warmth in your life and relationships, but I believe that appearance can be false if we are suppressing our anger.


I don't want to give the impression that I am this guy:










I do experience negativity. I just have methods of proactively eliminating it from occurring in the future and how to manage it once it is felt.




> Ideally, if we are open to expressing things as they arise, they won't build and we won't be exploding - but we may have a bit of force, hurt, anger, whatever in our communication if that's what we feel.


I agree, somewhat, in theory, I just can't promote this due to the very real pitfalls. The advice that I proffer is fully accepting of one that operates in your ideal mindset.






> Again - there is the concept of degree. Don't let things build so you don't explode. Don't try to own the others response so you don't internalize their anger and overreact.
> 
> This healthy expression should always be driven to a solution IMO - sometimes you might say "I can't deal with this now" but you have to come back and resolve it shortly (same day IMO). So a healthy expression and response should be followed by reflection, empathy, realignment of thinking based on the content of the discussion, and a hug with agreement or agreeing to respectfully disagree.
> 
> At least this is my zen state in my marriage - still working on it though (we're too "nice" sometimes to be honest).


It is hard to respond to this message because it is not "wrong" or "bad". My zen, as you put it, requires heavy self-reflection. Why? To eliminate as many unnecessary emotional reactions as possible. Something that is not inherently wrong should not ruin the day for a couple. As a result, both individuals just focus on bringing their 100% to the relationship. They might trip, but their partner is there to lend a hand, so they may stand back up. Too often a partner trips and they are criticized for it.


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## Blossom Leigh

Are there times RT when you see "crap" and call it what it is?


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## jld

Relationship Teacher said:


> Empathy is critical to step 1. To elaborate a bit, I would say that an individual that is reacting negatively is doing so for personal reasons, it just feels as if it is personal to us. It has a lot more to do with them than it does with us. Not that we cannot look at our own contribution to their upset. Empathy helps to disassociate the string from their reaction to our unhappy lever. Agree.
> 
> How to react to an unhappy partner is really relationship dependent. Some individuals do want to talk things out and some don't. Would you like to elaborate on those who don't? That is hard for me to understand. Regardless, the lines of communication have to remain open. Optimally, the relationship would be immediately back to full health when the unhappy partner got over their momentary distress. Seeing "crap", as I put it, keeps this from happening. I am concerned when I hear this kind of language used, too. It says hurt or fear to me. The language we use says something about our own internal state.
> 
> So, yes, we don't act as if nothing is wrong, we just don't take it personally. In place of taking it personally, we can see what they are taking personally. Agree. They are our partners, our favorite person on the planet. Should we not understand that they are suffering and need some compassion? Definitely Most of the typical negative emotional reactions that one will show is due to them expecting a conflicting reception from their partner. Likely because that is what they have experienced. When they expect conflict, they gear up for battle. They really want to feel understood. I truly believe that is ultimately what they want.


Totally agree we cannot take other people's emotions personally. Seek to understand, but do not take their anger personally.


RT, have you seen this?


_One of the core beliefs you must have if you want to succeed in both relationships and life is to be comfortable in your own skin.

This also means that you must have 10 inches of thick, steel skin. Words and insults should bounce right off you and over your shoulder. You can’t be affected by the opinions and words of others.

When you begin to understand this mindset, you’ll see how powerful it really is. All of the most powerful people who have ever lived have had thick skin.

The opinions of others, even their romantic partners, just doesn’t change who they are. It doesn’t throw them off course._


It is from the reignitethefire.com website.


----------



## jld

RT--_"This very common conflict resolution method is analogous to forcibly removing W's weapon. *My advice is more analogous to them realizing that they should drop their own weapon.*"_

When they feel understood, and fairly treated, they realize they don't need a weapon.


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## Thor

jld said:


> When they feel understood, and fairly treated, they realize they don't need a weapon.


Not if they're not healthy. Not if they are manipulative by nature, if they operate based on power, if they lack empathy, or if they don't care about the other person.

All this zen based non-conflict is useless unless the other person is in on the same mindset.


----------



## jld

Thor said:


> Not if they're not healthy. Not if they are manipulative by nature, if they operate based on power, if they lack empathy, or if they don't care about the other person.
> 
> All this zen based non-conflict is useless unless the other person is in on the same mindset.


Has that been your experience, Thor?

It is pretty hard to override our experience. Unless we look at it from a different angle.

And that is not to say that some people are not indeed truly mentally ill.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

jld said:


> RT--_"This very common conflict resolution method is analogous to forcibly removing W's weapon. *My advice is more analogous to them realizing that they should drop their own weapon.*"_
> 
> When they feel understood, and fairly treated, they realize they don't need a weapon.


Usually :wink2:




> Would you like to elaborate on those who don't? That is hard for me to understand.


Regarding relationship specific advice as it pertains to conflict resolution and mitigation:

This applies:
_
"The greatest gift you can give to somebody is your own personal development. I used to say, "If you will take care of me, I will take care of you." Now I say, "I will take care of me for you if you will take care of you for me"" -- Jim Rohn_

There are things that I get over by processing the negativity and some things that I require additional information for. What we must understand is that if we react negatively to our partners being upset, they see it as an attack or disapproval of their emotional state. This places a tremendous barrier to communication. Any talking that does take place is forced, only leading to more conflict.

I give all of this information as if it applies to normal relational conflicts. It goes back to what you just said (quoting you again)



> When they feel understood, and fairly treated, they realize they don't need a weapon


My advice seems as if it is for conflict resolution. It is not. It is for conflict pre-emption. It is an entire mindset that applies inside and outside of conflict. When partners get rid of their weapons, they realize they no longer need to show up to the battlefield.

From this:









to this:


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## jld

Would you like to elaborate on conflict pre-emption, RT?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Relationship Teacher said:


> Most believe in this, and I certainly understand where you come from. What most don't understand is that my mindset, that I embody and promote, eliminates almost all of the negative emotional reactions. Belief in conflict engenders conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> Right, yes. Obligation, no.
> 
> This very common conflict resolution method is analogous to forcibly removing W's weapon. My advice is more analogous to them realizing that they should drop their own weapon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. What I outlined is very dangerous if an individual is only keeping their reaction in. The most important thing is to master step 1. If anything is taken personally due to W's actions, then there must be a way to process the emotions. I promote processing the negativity by empowering one's logical mind. It WILL come out eventually if it remains bottled up.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to give the impression that I am this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do experience negativity. I just have methods of proactively eliminating it from occurring in the future and how to manage it once it is felt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, somewhat, in theory, I just can't promote this due to the very real pitfalls. The advice that I proffer is fully accepting of one that operates in your ideal mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is hard to respond to this message because it is not "wrong" or "bad". My zen, as you put it, requires heavy self-reflection. Why? To eliminate as many unnecessary emotional reactions as possible. Something that is not inherently wrong should not ruin the day for a couple. As a result, both individuals just focus on bringing their 100% to the relationship. They might trip, but their partner is there to lend a hand, so they may stand back up. Too often a partner trips and they are criticized for it.






Blossom Leigh said:


> Are there times RT when you see "crap" and call it what it is?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Well RT except I value honesty and honestly people have emotions. I own my own emotions and am unashamed of them though they are few and far between. 

I respect my W as an independent individual and do not try to control or contain her emotions. I do try to listen to them when they are expressed because they convey some sort of distress.

I believe your philosophy is wrong-headed in that it puts a negative value judgement on emotion over rational thought.

Emotion and rational thought are independent constructs. Emotion and the expression of emotion are not related to conflict - that is an independent process and variable. I believe you conflate unrelated constructs in an attempt to manipulate a series of independent "things" in order to direct an outcome. In this way I see it as manipulation.

Observe, act, emote, reflect, interact, think, respond... These are all independent "things". Whether you choose to see "conflict" in them or not doesn't impact whether or not they exist. If you attempt to restrain them in the others around you, you are manipulating then. If you choose to not engage and not emote, that may or may not further your goals of conflict avoidance with the other.

I don't see failure to emote or success suppression of emotion as a virtue.

I'm confused about why avoiding conflict is objectively "good" in your mind. It's not in mine.


----------



## Thor

jld said:


> Has that been your experience, Thor?
> 
> It is pretty hard to override our experience. Unless we look at it from a different angle.
> 
> And that is not to say that some people are not indeed truly mentally ill.


Not everybody is difficult to have a discussion with. But some people are. For whatever reason, they don't respond to calm dispassionate attempts at discussing the issue. They don't have to be mentally ill to be difficult, it can just be the way they learned to operate in the world. Those people can be dealt with by either escalating the level of conflict or walking away. 

One doesn't have to be all riled up into emotional turmoil when escalating the level of conflict. On the outside it looks more intense but it doesn't mean one has lost control or is all upset.

Walking away can mean capitulation. It can also make one look weak. In many arenas this means a loss of authority, respect, or effectiveness.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Blossom Leigh said:


> Are there times RT when you see "crap" *and call it what it is*?


In my relationship, no. I do become mildly upset on occasion, but easily process it without a visible negative reaction. There are, however, instances that I still have not put the same emotional development energy towards (like traffic, etc.).


----------



## cinnabomb

You hit it RIGHT on the head. she doesnt really have many or any friends, loves work because she is admired by all the many people who work for her, and she DOES measure success by money, power, influence, and rolodex, not by family, etc. in fact she doesnt even talk to her own parents, ever. i talk to mine almost daily (not to say i dont have issues with them either, but not like her). She already is in IC for anger management, something i demanded that she do when we went to see this MC. I told her its a deal breaker. she is doing it, but not sure if its working yet. not even sure if she is still going. its so hard to have any kind of conversation with her. she gets awkward, angry, and then distant and ignores me. 

i know you are saying to build a life without her. but do you know how hard this is? I cant picture a life without her and dont want a love-less life. im really struggling. im trying. i really am. but i need her as well. ive been severely neglected and abused like some ****ing stray dog for 5 years now. I crave touch so bad that if she even puts her hand on mine randomly it shakes my world and can make my entire day. It's sad that its come to that. But thats how neglected I've been. So build a life without her and learn to not need love and affection is the key? Or do I have that wrong? seems brutal....




Thor said:


> So she probably has some issues related to her upbringing. This is only interesting to you from the standpoint of informing you it is not your fault nor is it your problem to fix. At least her part of it isn't yours to fix. You can use this information to try to wake her up and get her into MC and/or IC to deal with her side of the marital problems.
> 
> Workaholics and very high achievers frequently do have psych issues they are running from in some way. I bet your wife has abandonment issues and is making herself an island to avoid people abandoning her. Though in reality her actions are causing exactly what she fears! Imho your wife has some pretty significant psych issues which is causing this behavior from her. She has a template for what she thinks life, marriage, and family are, and that template is screwed up.
> 
> Your wife has some warped ideas of what is desirable in life, and what constitutes a successful life. At least to our understanding she is a bit off kilter. She may view money as a measure of achievement rather than, for example, having a happy vibrant family as a measure of achievement. Or, she may view being professionally successful as a substitute for real friendships. She may not know how to have real friendships. Being successful makes her popular and in demand within a group of people she admires.
> 
> There are deep issues which she has to look at before she will change. It won't be easy for her to do. You can't Nice her into doing it either. You can't lead by example in terms of you going to IC or MC and hoping she gets the hint. At some point she has to be challenged on what her priorities and goals are in life.
> 
> And she may decide she likes being professionally successful and not being emotionally close to her husband. Just because that is what you want of her doesn't mean she will ever want it. Maybe she used to, or maybe not. But right now she is caught up in her professional world. You're just a stage prop or the hired help.
> 
> The answer is for you to detach the emotional hose from her and build your own life.


----------



## turnera

Good grief, chunder. Just get the hell out of that house. Go for walks. Then start running. Then start martial arts. Then start playing soccer. Then learn to play poker and join a poker club. 

You weren't born with a woman on your arm. You won't take one with you to heaven. YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING and as such you deserve to find things that make you happy FOR YOURSELF.

Not from a woman. Not to have a woman look at you. Or choose you. Or give you sex. 

You're a man. Start being one. Do man stuff.


----------



## cinnabomb

as ive mentioned, I already am doing those things. I go out with guys for happy hour and poker, i play ball, i work out, I run, etc. Those are all nice things but at the end I still want to come home to a WIFE, to the women I married. I just dont recognize her anymore. 

I think the absolute biggest issue is that she doesnt get criticized in any way in her life anymore, isnt used to it, HATED her mom for judging her and is sensitive to it, and that creates a big issue for me. When she does something rude, or annoying, or whatever, if I bring it up she loses her shyit. 

Someone else said to not walk out of the room and calmly try to understand her. I DO that, everytime. But you are assuming I am dealing with a normal person. She loses total control of herself when feeling judged, yelling, calling names, interrupting, not letting me get a word in, and then leaving. Calmly trying to understand her point of view doesnt work with someone who is in a state of crazy. 

Can you guys give me a specific test to try out on her? Knowing what the primary issues are? We are supposed to see MC tomorrow, so I guess we will see how that goes, but the MC talks a lot about our upbringing but doesnt focus on the primary issues. I can literally boil down the entire issue in two lines:

*5 years ago my wife, who was always kind, humble, and impressionable, starting working in an awful, hostile, and aggressive new industry (hollywood), and began working under a egotistical, bipolar, money-obsessed sociopath. He abused her for a year and eventually she changed, hardened herself to survive, and became the protege he always wanted, a reflection of himself, bringing home this totally new person, now unable to compromise, be generous, nurturing, or giving, and sees everything as an adversary and tries to steamroll them with anger, aggression, and hostility. *

This is what I'm dealing with. I truly believe that as long as he is in the picture, there is no way she will ever morph back into the wonderful core person that she always was. It was a shocking and confusing change to witness, and truly destroyed my world and broke my heart. I had no idea a person could change so much so fast and not be aware of it. So now I am here trying to get advice on what to do. In addition to MC and IC. 

OK, lets say I do everything you guys say. I find more of my own life outside of the home. CHECK. I workout and get in better shape. CHECK. I begin claiming my manhood back by being more assertive, and address issues when they arise, and walk out of the room when she is yelling, etc. CHECK. I dont go out of my way to nurture her or be so "nice" all the time. CHECK. 

Now what? Knowing what you know, do you honestly believe and have seen examples of similar women, that she will change and start:
1. Being kinder, thoughtful, and nurturing to me
2. Being humble and less ego-centric again
3. Start caring about her health and weight and start dieting and exercising again
4. Start wanting sex, and being affectionate with love
5. Being able to handle criticism, such as "honey, please eat something healthy instead of that cereal", or whatever it is. 

Do you honestly believe this? If so and you have seen examples of such a hug change, I am willing to try. But knowing that she wont quit her job or working with that psycho, I am having a hard time believing it. Thoughts?





turnera said:


> Good grief, chunder. Just get the hell out of that house. Go for walks. Then start running. Then start martial arts. Then start playing soccer. Then learn to play poker and join a poker club.
> 
> You weren't born with a woman on your arm. You won't take one with you to heaven. YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING and as such you deserve to find things that make you happy FOR YOURSELF.
> 
> Not from a woman. Not to have a woman look at you. Or choose you. Or give you sex.
> 
> You're a man. Start being one. Do man stuff.


----------



## jld

She seems to really be under a lot of stress. She needs your understanding. If she feels judged in any way by you, she is going to feel rejected, and will reject you in return.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> Now what? Knowing what you know, do you honestly believe and have seen examples of similar women, that she will change and start:
> 1. Being kinder, thoughtful, and nurturing to me
> 2. Being humble and less ego-centric again
> 3. Start caring about her health and weight and start dieting and exercising again
> 4. Start wanting sex, and being affectionate with love
> 5. Being able to handle criticism, such as "honey, please eat something healthy instead of that cereal", or whatever it is.
> 
> Do you honestly believe this? If so and you have seen examples of such a hug change, I am willing to try. But knowing that she wont quit her job or working with that psycho, I am having a hard time believing it. Thoughts?


You aren't getting it. 

YOU CAN'T CHANGE HER.

You keep trying this way and that way, can I try this, should I do that...to MAKE HER WANT ME.

We're telling you to do the changes so that YOU matter to you. So that YOU like yourself and you can survive with or without her. 

It will be that magical moment, once you have dived into IC and learned that you DO matter, you ARE a great person, you ARE lovable...and if she won't see that, well, then you don't need her. You'll find someone better.

THAT is what we're looking for from you. Knowing that you WANT her, but you don't NEED her. 

Once you reach that point, you'll stop obsessing over how many times she looks at you, how often she criticizes you, how much sex you aren't getting.

Because it won't matter.

And guess what? Once you stop obsessing about her? You start looking attractive to her.

Just go into MC tomorrow and say "My wife doesn't care about me, she barely tolerates me, my life revolves around her and I'm getting NOTHING in return. What do I do to make her change?"

Maybe you'll listen to the MC if you won't listen to us.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Do those things. Watch her behavior. If she still has no regard for you and shows you no respect then you've done what you can.

And you'll be ready for the next step which is to be independent, have self respect, teach your children to respect themselves and others, and be ready to meet someone who will love and respect you. Maybe even like your W used to.

If she doesn't change AND she KNOWS you're leaving, you're better off gone.

Am I missing something? I don't think so. Well except the pain of leaving, but it sounds like the same amount of pain just for a different reason, and pain that ends at some point.

Sorry but that's all I see


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> as ive mentioned, I already am doing those things. I go out with guys for happy hour and poker


Do you do it even when she tells you not to?



> i play ball, i work out, I run, etc.


Would you give all this up in a second if she wiggled her finger at you?



> Someone else said to not walk out of the room and calmly try to understand her. I DO that, everytime. But you are assuming I am dealing with a normal person. She loses total control of herself when feeling judged, yelling, calling names, interrupting, not letting me get a word in, and then leaving. Calmly trying to understand her point of view doesnt work with someone who is in a state of crazy.


Who told you that? jld? Nobody else here would have told you to stand there and let her tear you a new a**hole. We have all told you to WALK AWAY when she disrespects you. THAT is how you get her to be nicer to you, not standing there like a whipping boy.



> OK, lets say I do everything you guys say. I find more of my own life outside of the home. CHECK. I workout and get in better shape. CHECK. I begin claiming my manhood back by being more assertive, and address issues when they arise, and walk out of the room when she is yelling, etc. CHECK. I dont go out of my way to nurture her or be so "nice" all the time. CHECK.
> 
> Now what? Knowing what you know, do you honestly believe and have seen examples of similar women, that she will change and start:
> 1. Being kinder, thoughtful, and nurturing to me
> 2. Being humble and less ego-centric again
> 3. Start caring about her health and weight and start dieting and exercising again
> 4. Start wanting sex, and being affectionate with love
> 5. Being able to handle criticism, such as "honey, please eat something healthy instead of that cereal", or whatever it is.
> 
> Do you honestly believe this? If so and you have seen examples of such a hug change, I am willing to try. But knowing that she wont quit her job or working with that psycho, I am having a hard time believing it. Thoughts?


Yes, it's basic psychology. If you respect yourself, she will have no choice but to respect you. 

When you do man stuff, are you hanging out and talking about man stuff? Getting their perspective on your wife treating you that way? Watching them to see how THEY handle controversy? That's the point of doing man stuff. You never learned to be a 'guy' given your FOO. You need to learn it. Spend that time bonding with other men. IMO, you need that more than anything else.

When you go out with the guys, does she even know you're gone? Or is she so wrapped up in work she doesn't remember you live there?

Or are you hurrying up to get it over with so you can run home to see if she notices you?


----------



## Lilac23

jld said:


> That is the man she trusts. That is why she tells him everything.
> 
> OP, you need to become the man she trusts.
> 
> What a woman trusts in a man might be individual to each woman. I personally do not trust men who are reactive, such as a man who would leave the room if I were angry. To me, that says I am too strong for him. He has to protect himself in some way from me by fleeing.
> 
> How could I trust a man who has to protect himself from me? I am clearly not safe with him. Best to let him not only leave the room, but walk right out of my life. I would be better off alone.
> 
> A strong man, to me, stays in the room when his wife is angry. He is not threatened by her anger, and does not seek to control her. He seeks to understand her. Why is she upset? What is the root?
> 
> To be able to seek this, he cannot take her anger personally. If it is about him, he acknowledges that, and thinks about how he can change to avoid provoking her in the future. He is open to her input.
> 
> If her anger is not about him, he simply seeks to understand. He helps her verbalize what she is fearing or hurt by. He listens, with empathy. He holds her, if appropriate.
> 
> She soon comes to feel that she can tell him anything, and he will be understanding. He will neither be defensive nor reactive. His demeanor calms her. When she is ready to listen, he offers wise counsel.


Totally! i remember one of the hottest things my ex ever did one time, I was being completely unreasonable (I admit it) and he just stayed calm and light hearted. He didn't denigrate anything I was doing, saying or feeling but was there and strong.


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> as ive mentioned, I already am doing those things. I go out with guys for happy hour and poker, i play ball, i work out, I run, etc. Those are all nice things but at the end I still want to come home to a WIFE, to the women I married. I just dont recognize her anymore.
> 
> I think the absolute biggest issue is that she doesnt get criticized in any way in her life anymore, isnt used to it, HATED her mom for judging her and is sensitive to it, and that creates a big issue for me. When she does something rude, or annoying, or whatever, if I bring it up she loses her shyit.
> 
> Someone else said to not walk out of the room and calmly try to understand her. I DO that, everytime. But you are assuming I am dealing with a normal person. She loses total control of herself when feeling judged, yelling, calling names, interrupting, not letting me get a word in, and then leaving. Calmly trying to understand her point of view doesnt work with someone who is in a state of crazy.
> 
> Can you guys give me a specific test to try out on her? Knowing what the primary issues are? We are supposed to see MC tomorrow, so I guess we will see how that goes, but the MC talks a lot about our upbringing but doesnt focus on the primary issues. I can literally boil down the entire issue in two lines:
> 
> *5 years ago my wife, who was always kind, humble, and impressionable, starting working in an awful, hostile, and aggressive new industry (hollywood), and began working under a egotistical, bipolar, money-obsessed sociopath. He abused her for a year and eventually she changed, hardened herself to survive, and became the protege he always wanted, a reflection of himself, bringing home this totally new person, now unable to compromise, be generous, nurturing, or giving, and sees everything as an adversary and tries to steamroll them with anger, aggression, and hostility. *
> 
> This is what I'm dealing with. I truly believe that as long as he is in the picture, there is no way she will ever morph back into the wonderful core person that she always was. It was a shocking and confusing change to witness, and truly destroyed my world and broke my heart. I had no idea a person could change so much so fast and not be aware of it. So now I am here trying to get advice on what to do. In addition to MC and IC.
> 
> OK, lets say I do everything you guys say. I find more of my own life outside of the home. CHECK. I workout and get in better shape. CHECK. I begin claiming my manhood back by being more assertive, and address issues when they arise, and walk out of the room when she is yelling, etc. CHECK. I dont go out of my way to nurture her or be so "nice" all the time. CHECK.
> 
> Now what? Knowing what you know, do you honestly believe and have seen examples of similar women, that she will change and start:
> 1. Being kinder, thoughtful, and nurturing to me
> 2. Being humble and less ego-centric again
> 3. Start caring about her health and weight and start dieting and exercising again
> 4. Start wanting sex, and being affectionate with love
> 5. Being able to handle criticism, such as "honey, please eat something healthy instead of that cereal", or whatever it is.
> 
> Do you honestly believe this? If so and you have seen examples of such a hug change, I am willing to try. But knowing that she wont quit her job or working with that psycho, I am having a hard time believing it. Thoughts?


I'm going to go through and break this down in a little while but I feel you are again being indecisive, hesitant, weak and only willing to try to get respect for yourself from your wife if a bunch of internet strangers guarantee she will become everything you've ever dreamed of, why do you need to be talked into improving your life? This is not hot, my friend! 

Maybe we should focus on why _you_ are the way you are? What are your parents like? Was your dad a pleaser, as well? The gist of your problem is that you are not happy, you cannot _make_ her change, only _you_ can change and see how she responds to that. Maybe you should try taking charge in one small area first as kind of a tester? Plan an evening out of the two of you, lay out the dress you want her to wear, arrange for the babysitter, take her phone away at the beginning of the date and shut it off, put yours on silent and check it every once in a while in case the babysitter has a problem, open the car door for her, pull out her chair, focus all your attention on her (but not in a needy looking for approval sort of way).


----------



## Relationship Teacher

jld said:


> Would you like to elaborate on conflict pre-emption, RT?


There are a lot of concepts that build the mindset. The main idea is that when you release your grasp on the relationship, you gain control. It sounds counter-intuitive. How do you _increase_ the likelihood that partners will cheat on each other? You treat them as they need to be monitored and control their behavior. By accepting one's partner, we are not enabling or rewarding bad behavior. The acceptance, without condition, is the aforementioned realization that no weapons of war are needed.

Embodying this mindset causes conflict to evaporate. This is because conflict engenders conflict. So we break the cycle.


----------



## Thor

chunderbunder said:


> OK, lets say I do everything you guys say. I find more of my own life outside of the home. CHECK. I workout and get in better shape. CHECK. I begin claiming my manhood back by being more assertive, and address issues when they arise, and walk out of the room when she is yelling, etc. CHECK. I dont go out of my way to nurture her or be so "nice" all the time. CHECK.
> 
> Now what? Knowing what you know, do you honestly believe and have seen examples of similar women, that she will change and start:
> 1. Being kinder, thoughtful, and nurturing to me
> 2. Being humble and less ego-centric again
> 3. Start caring about her health and weight and start dieting and exercising again
> 4. Start wanting sex, and being affectionate with love
> 5. Being able to handle criticism, such as "honey, please eat something healthy instead of that cereal", or whatever it is.


The things you do are for you, not for her. Your entire list reads like a covert contract or an attachment to outcome. You work on your own attitudes, behavior, and quality of life. Those are the only things you have control over. You have zero control over what she does.

You become an Integrated Man. Aside from romance you build the best you and the best life you can.

Will she make those changes? Probably not, but I have seen cases where the wife made enough change to keep the marriage alive satisfactorily. I've seen more cases where the marriage went to a long overdue grave (as per Dr. R. Glover's comments on the outcome of men becoming Integrated).

If she comes around, you win! You have the great wife you want, and your life is very full.

If she doesn't come around, you can choose to stay in an unfulfilling marriage for whatever reasons (kids, money, status, etc). I don't recommend this, but it is an option. Integrated men probably won't stick around, though, because they don't put up with the unacceptable. Instead, you will be best poised to go be single. You'll be a great dad to your kids. You'll have a satisfying quality of life. And you'll attract high quality women for the romance side of your life.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Thor OP is hoping the truth isn't as bleak as it really is, so he is holding on to his angst.

As a kid my parents told me a Russian saying "they can take away everything but they can't take my misery". IDK - Cold War propaganda? But apropos


----------



## jld

Relationship Teacher said:


> There are a lot of concepts that build the mindset. The main idea is that when you release your grasp on the relationship, you gain control. It sounds counter-intuitive. How do you _increase_ the likelihood that partners will cheat on each other? You treat them as they need to be monitored and control their behavior. By accepting one's partner, we are not enabling or rewarding bad behavior. * The acceptance, without condition, is the aforementioned realization that no weapons of war are needed.*
> 
> Embodying this mindset causes conflict to evaporate. This is because conflict engenders conflict. So we break the cycle.


I definitely agree that monitoring and trying to control a partner is unhealthy. 

Could you elaborate on the bolded, please?


----------



## tech-novelist

turnera said:


> This is SO true, and THE major problem in all the marriages I know where the woman is not happy. If you read His Needs Her Needs, you'll learn that a woman's top Emotional Need is usually security - which translates to physical safety, financial stability, domestic maintenance (doing the things women often can't), protecting them from mean people or bad situations...things we CAN do ourselves, but one of the main reasons we seek out a husband. And if that husband doesn't step up...we get resentful, and may not even know why; we just start to feel...unsettled. And sometimes angry.
> 
> I'm mad as hell at my husband for getting us $100,000 in debt and then not accepting responsibility for it. And for having a car that hasn't been working right for a YEAR now, and instead of just finding the money to get it fixed, or doing it himself, he's been sharing my car, putting ME out. I didn't marry a man so I would have to be the one holding the whole family together. I was looking forward to feeling safe and secure.
> 
> That's probably what your wife is feeling.


I'm glad you are writing this, instead of a man... who would undoubtedly be called a bitter loser who lives in his mommy's basement. >


----------



## Relationship Teacher

jld said:


> I definitely agree that monitoring and trying to control a partner is unhealthy.
> 
> Could you elaborate on the bolded, please?


Unconditional acceptance is taking any relationship into completely uncharted territory (for many). Typically, relationships are characteristic of clearly defined expectations, which are criteria that the partner must meet in order to gain our approval or love. We often hook them with unconditional acceptance during the courtship and then add all of our demands when they can no longer leave (or so the thought goes).

-Acceptance is letting another bring their 100% to the table. 
-Conditions force them to do so.

Conflict exists because of the faith in the traditional relationship model. Partners define what is right and wrong and expect strict adherence or consequences are faced. As a result, it is one's partner's actions that receive all of the attention, instead of one's own actions.

As seen in the two chess pictures, we can either believe in looking for flaws in our partner or flaws that the relationship (two individuals) need to fix. Acceptance is focusing on the individual, as a whole, and not on the individual "flaws".

Relationship challenges are only characterized with elevated emotions because there is a perceived need to use anger or other emotions as bargaining tools. There is a problem, though. The stress response literally makes us stupid. As a result, individuals react instinctively, unable to tap into logic or facts. If one is accepted, they realize that they don't "need" to beat sense into their partner. A dialogue can be opened and the issue can be approached as a couple.

With acceptance, a partner can drop their weapon, take off their armor and focus (instead) on bringing their positive effort into the relationship.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Relationship Teacher said:


> In my relationship, no. I do become mildly upset on occasion, but easily process it without a visible negative reaction. There are, however, instances that I still have not put the same emotional development energy towards (like traffic, etc.).


Its great that you have a relationship where mildly upset is the norm. Is that because your significant other doesnt do things that are that bad or because you have conditioned yourself to a degree that you can weather any form of abuse?How far do you take self conditioning before you've crossed a line into accepting chronic abuse as a norm?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunder, I've been pondering your situation before adding my comments to you because I hear you when you say you are doing everything mentioned here In regards to working out, having a social life, approaching her with empathy, respect, etc.. My thoughts are she has you shut out to the degree that no matter what you do she will treat you with contempt because what I see is a woman who has developed an addiction to the fast pumping adrenaline with her job, power, prestige as well as this man she is confiding in. Therefore my approach if I were in your shoes would be to detach to the degree of pausing all effort to salvage until I researched, studied and understood what to do in an addict situation. It would be different if she had had the ability to hang onto her priorities and protect her family from her job intruding to this degree, but she didn't. Now it has destroyed your marriage because she is so far in she is addicted. The addiction is running the show. You didnt cause that, you can't control it and you can't cure it. She was not equipped to keep her boundaries straight. 

Situations like these are quite the challenge because its not an external substance by which she is addicted, but an internal one, adrenaline. You can still love her accepting her limitations, but having reciprocity expectations at this point are delusion and self inflicted wounds. So, my second step would be to suspend all expectations of reciprocity for now since she is not capable of emotional presence. My third step would be looking within to assess whether or not I have what it takes in skill and desire to proceed to right a ship with this relationally incapacitated person. 

In my situation it took me about six months to decide that I had the skill and desire, plus had done enough study to figure out HOW to right the ship. In my situation my H was chronically angry, scaring both me and our son. So, I studied on Boundaries, found my truth drum on whatkind of home environment I was willing to accept, then informed him I was no longer willing to accept status quo. I made it very clear he had a very short amount of time to get himself into anger management with a professional because we were already well past my skill set to manage his anger. As a result he spent the bulk of 2014 in professional counsel as well as faith counsel. He gave his heart to Christ by May of that year, surrounded himself with men of faith and today our home is peaceful, loving and fun. 

So you see, its a progression, but it started with me deciding that the status quo was unsustainable, redrawing my perspective on his capacity (dangerous addiction to anger), suspending reciprocity expectations and asking him to see a professional. I remained consistent on beating my truth drum of needing a safe, fun and loving home for our family, that nothing less was acceptable. We've achieved it. I had the skill and desire. He had the capacity and became willing. These are crucuial.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

OP said that his wife needed to be in anger management. That it was a deal breaker.

He then said he doesn't even know if she's going.

No accountability for crossing boundaries.

Blossom is correct. We have a cluster B wife/codependent husband dynamic. Very similar to addict/codependent.

OP is pining for his wife from 5 years ago. 

Wake up, fella. She's left the building and isn't coming back.

Why would she? Why should she?

For you?

She's acting out of self-interest. Just like you.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Blossom Leigh said:


> Its great that you have a relationship where mildly upset is the norm. Is that because your significant other doesnt do things that are that bad or because you have conditioned yourself to a degree that you can weather any form of abuse?


Good questions.

Does my partner do things that are "bad" in my eyes or the eyes of others? There are things that are done that would have bothered (to varying degrees) the old me. The issue is that they are not objectively "bad" or inherently so. The old me would have falsely attributed those actions with negativity due to my character flaws. Am I just a doormat? Of course not. I don't live all day long feeling like a victim or that I am being taken advantage of. I have no bottled up resentment. Instead of arguing, we talk. My personal and professional emphasis is on living in accordance with *facts*. Almost every negative reaction is invalidated by them. Incredible peace of mind is the result.

_I can not overstate _how much my promoted mindset eliminates the need for conflict. True acceptance enables each of us to focus on ourselves and bring our best to the relationship. Otherwise, we would have to be on defense much of the time. Those on defense still fight back.



> How far do you take self conditioning before you've crossed a line into accepting chronic abuse as a norm?


I don't pre-define what is and is not emotional abuse, as it pertains to my reception of it. My goal, and the one I promote, is to see individuals for what their intentions are. And when they trip, I am there to be there for them. I leave myself fully open to experiencing the moment, without past commitments to emotional reactions (if she does this, I'll react this way). With each moment that comes, I live and experience it. If I am abused, I want the future me to be the one that reacts to it, not this one.

I wish I could explain how it feels to be unconditionally accepted.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Relationship Teacher said:


> Good questions.
> 
> Does my partner do things that are "bad" in my eyes or the eyes of others? There are things that are done that would have bothered (to varying degrees) the old me. The issue is that they are not objectively "bad" or inherently so. The old me would have falsely attributed those actions with negativity due to my character flaws. Am I just a doormat? Of course not. I don't live all day long feeling like a victim or that I am being taken advantage of. I have no bottled up resentment. Instead of arguing, we talk. My personal and professional emphasis is on living in accordance with *facts*. Almost every negative reaction is invalidated by them. Incredible peace of mind is the result.
> 
> _I can not overstate _how much my promoted mindset eliminates the need for conflict. True acceptance enables each of us to focus on ourselves and bring our best to the relationship. Otherwise, we would have to be on defense much of the time. Those on defense still fight back.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't pre-define what is and is not emotional abuse, as it pertains to my reception of it. My goal, and the one I promote, is to see individuals for what their intentions are. And when they trip, I am there to be there for them. I leave myself fully open to experiencing the moment, without past commitments to emotional reactions (if she does this, I'll react this way). With each moment that comes, I live and experience it. If I am abused, I want the future me to be the one that reacts to it, not this one.
> 
> I wish I could explain how it feels to be unconditionally accepted.


Do you believe verbal or emotional abuse exists?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

RT the bulk of what you talk about I would refer to as normal interactions.

Perhaps you work with people like OP's wife who don't know how to interact normally.

I find you long explanations of what I would consider obvious and normal behavior interesting - it seems you have wrapped this into a theory in order to convey it to others?

Normal interactions shouldn't result in defensive responses, regardless of the way they are presented. An angry statement conveys additional information of distress which should be received not in a defensive manner, but with heightened listening and even probing to determine the "real" issues, which at times the angry person hasn't really surfaced.

By the same token, knowing your S can receive emotional discussions without being defensive allows one to express what they feel and to an extent rely on their partner to help decide the issues.

Any emotional discussions with my W are immediately resolved this way.

Perhaps this is consistent with your thinking?

With regard to OP I think there are few responses other than get to 50k feet, become independent, and try to show W a future without him.


----------



## jld

Relationship Teacher said:


> Unconditional acceptance is taking any relationship into completely uncharted territory (for many). Typically, relationships are characteristic of clearly defined expectations, which are criteria that the partner must meet in order to gain our approval or love. We often hook them with unconditional acceptance during the courtship and then add all of our demands when they can no longer leave (or so the thought goes).
> 
> -Acceptance is letting another bring their 100% to the table.
> -Conditions force them to do so.
> 
> Conflict exists because of the faith in the traditional relationship model. Partners define what is right and wrong and expect strict adherence or consequences are faced. As a result, it is one's partner's actions that receive all of the attention, instead of one's own actions.


I think we see this in CWI. So much emphasis on controlling the wayward, instead of trying to understand him/her. And very little on looking at the hand of the betrayed in the troubles. A real resistance to it, in fact.



> As seen in the two chess pictures, we can either believe in looking for flaws in our partner or flaws that the relationship (two individuals) need to fix. Acceptance is focusing on the individual, as a whole, and not on the individual "flaws".
> 
> Relationship challenges are only characterized with elevated emotions because there is a perceived need to use anger or other emotions as bargaining tools. There is a problem, though. The stress response literally makes us stupid. As a result, individuals react instinctively, unable to tap into logic or facts.


People feel fear and want to protect themselves. But instead of doing it the healthy way, by trying to understand what went wrong and how to fix it, they try to control the other person. They think the other person has the obligation to make them feel safe.

This is what is happening with chunder, I think. He wants his wife to make him feel safe, instead of first making her feel safe.



> If one is accepted, they realize that they don't "need" to beat sense into their partner. A dialogue can be opened and the issue can be approached as a couple.
> 
> With acceptance, a partner can drop their weapon, take off their armor and focus (instead) on bringing their positive effort into the relationship.


Chunder would first need to make himself feel safe. He needs to look at his fears and resolve them. He needs to become stronger in himself. 

As he learns to love and care for himself, he will become less needy and more emotionally available to give to his wife. She will feel his ability to emotionally nurture her and not make her feel judged, which is what is pushing her away right now. 

But it is hard when we feel so deprived. It is like we are starved for love, with an empty cupboard, and someone is asking us to make a feast.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

TheTruthHurts said:


> RT the bulk of what you talk about I would refer to as normal interactions.
> 
> Perhaps you work with people like OP's wife who don't know how to interact normally.
> 
> I find you long explanations of what I would consider obvious and normal behavior interesting - it seems you have wrapped this into a theory in order to convey it to others?
> 
> Normal interactions shouldn't result in defensive responses, regardless of the way they are presented. An angry statement conveys additional information of distress which should be received not in a defensive manner, but with heightened listening and even probing to determine the "real" issues, which at times the angry person hasn't really surfaced.
> By the same token, knowing your S can receive emotional discussions without being defensive allows one to express what they feel and to an extent rely on their partner to help decide the issues.
> 
> Any emotional discussions with my W are immediately resolved this way.
> 
> Perhaps this is consistent with your thinking?
> 
> With regard to OP I think there are few responses other than get to 50k feet, become independent, and try to show W a future without him.


Precisely.... there does come a time when the behavior is so extreme that to condition yourself to receive it and not react to it would be personally detrimental. I walked that road. 

For the record... I know what unconditional acceptance feels like I walked that road with my H after his affair.

What I refused to walk with him was chronic verbal and emotional abuse of myself and our son. He is a 6'3" man who at one point had both of us terrified of him.

Therefore... I realized that if I continued to just work on me and be that neutral non reactive, always dignified compassionate being, then I was training myself to accept horrible abuse. When it spilled over to our son... The fight in me surfaced and put an end to what SHOULD have been stopped. There are behaviors that are TOTALLY unacceptable and to accept them as an "outburst" is unwise. For everyone involved. So, FOR myself, our son AND my husband.... I called his crap what it was, crap and held him accountable for his behavior. It changed his life. Now I have a husband and my son has a father. And I didn't have to change men to get it.

I just STOOD up for what is right and decent and said NO MORE.

This is where I see the OP.... needing to make the decision of where his cut off line is and asking for the change that needs to happen and if he has already done that... making good on the consequence.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

... Stand up ... And consequences


----------



## ThreeStrikes

The majority of what RT is describing, in a particularly long-winded way, is the Drama/Victim Triangle.

It's nothing new.

When one grasps the fundamentals of the drama triangle, it will quickly become apparent that it is impossible to have a fulfilling, healthy relationship with a personality-disordered person. Or addict. Because they live on the corners. They like it. It's their comfort zone.

If someone is coming at you with a baseball bat, day after day, _your mindset_ doesn't matter. You're in immediate survival mode. A so-called "promoted mindset" isn't going to keep them from bashing your head in.

The only thing you can do is establish healthy boundaries. If those boundaries are crossed (or bulldozed, as is often the case), you end that relationship.

"The next time you pick up that bat, I'm ending our relationship."

I'm always wary of folks who don't believe in bad or good. That's a cop out.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ThreeStrikes said:


> The majority of what RT is describing, in a particularly long-winded way, is the Drama/Victim Triangle.
> 
> It's nothing new.
> 
> When one grasps the fundamentals of the drama triangle, it will quickly become apparent that it is impossible to have a fulfilling, healthy relationship with a personality-disordered person. Or addict. Because they live on the corners. They like it. It's their comfort zone.
> 
> If someone is coming at you with a baseball bat, day after day, _your mindset_ doesn't matter. You're in immediate survival mode. A so-called "promoted mindset" isn't going to keep them from bashing your head in.
> 
> The only thing you can do is establish healthy boundaries. If those boundaries are crossed (or bulldozed, as is often the case), you end that relationship.
> 
> "The next time you pick up that bat, I'm ending our relationship."
> 
> I'm always wary of folks who don't believe in bad or good. That's a cop out.


Hallefrickalleuja


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do you believe verbal or emotional abuse exists?


Of course it does. I just think we should have a choice. There are many reactions that are only due to our subconscious programming. Build emotional intelligence and eliminate useless emotional reactions.





ThreeStrikes said:


> If someone is coming at you with a baseball bat, day after day, _your mindset_ doesn't matter. You're in immediate survival mode. A so-called "promoted mindset" isn't going to keep them from bashing your head in.


The mindset works pro-actively, not retroactively. You are criticizing the mindset from the wrong standpoint. They no longer have the need to pick up the bat. Things that would cause serious emotional trauma in a relationship no longer happen when individuals live this manner, like it or not. Again, my mindset is not *for* conflict resolution. Partners no longer need to go onto the battlefield.

Do you make a relationship affair-proof by enforcing the healthy boundaries? Of course not. It isn't the boundary, but the individual turning into a detective and presuming there is trouble when there isn't. It degrades the relationship. Degraded relationships are reliable causes for affairs.



> The only thing you can do is establish healthy boundaries. If those boundaries are crossed (or bulldozed, as is often the case), you end that relationship.
> 
> "The next time you pick up that bat, I'm ending our relationship."
> 
> I'm always wary of folks who don't believe in bad or good. That's a cop out.


Do you want to react to a future work situation with your current knowledge or the knowledge you will have at that moment? The answer is obvious.

To say my relationship has no established boundaries is absurd. There is just the respect to allow each individual to come to the table voluntarily. The problem is that individuals feel the need to *enforce* the "boundaries". You become a police officer instead of a lover. It isn't that boundaries are bad, inherently, it is the fixation upon them. It is looking for offenses, instead of looking for ways to enjoy every moment.





TheTruthHurts said:


> Any emotional discussions with my W are immediately resolved this way.
> 
> Perhaps this is consistent with your thinking?


Yes, to a large degree.




jld said:


> I think we see this in CWI. So much emphasis on controlling the wayward, instead of trying to understand him/her. And very little on looking at the hand of the betrayed in the troubles. A real resistance to it, in fact.
> 
> People feel fear and want to protect themselves. But instead of doing it the healthy way, by trying to understand what went wrong and how to fix it, they try to control the other person. They think the other person has the obligation to make them feel safe.
> 
> This is what is happening with chunder, I think. He wants his wife to make him feel safe, instead of first making her feel safe.
> 
> Chunder would first need to make himself feel safe. He needs to look at his fears and resolve them. He needs to become stronger in himself.
> 
> As he learns to love and care for himself, he will become less needy and more emotionally available to give to his wife. She will feel his ability to emotionally nurture her and not make her feel judged, which is what is pushing her away right now.
> 
> But it is hard when we feel so deprived. It is like we are starved for love, with an empty cupboard, and someone is asking us to make a feast.


Exactly.

Feeling healthy engenders healthy actions. Healthy relationships are characterized by healthy interactions. Being on defense is not healthy. Being a victim is not healthy. It does not work in relationships, because it takes individuals out of the role of lover.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

@Relationship Teacher

Do you believe victims exist?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Relationship Teacher said:


> Of course it does. I just think we should have a choice. There are many reactions that are only due to our subconscious programming. Build emotional intelligence and eliminate useless emotional reactions.


Ok. What would you do in the face of chronic excessive emotional, psychological and verbal abuse? AFTER you already built emotional intelligence?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Clearly RT'S experience with abusive individuals is limited. 

He has yet to experience a good whack to the head by the old Louisville Slugger.

Waking up will be painfull


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Relationship Teacher said:


> Feeling healthy engenders healthy actions. Healthy relationships are characterized by healthy interactions. Being on defense is not healthy. Being a victim is not healthy. It does not work in relationships, because it takes individuals out of the role of lover.


I do agree with this, though.

Let's get OP to a healthy status.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ThreeStrikes said:


> Clearly RT'S experience with abusive individuals is limited.
> 
> He has yet to experience a good whack to the head by the old Louisville Slugger.
> 
> Waking up will be painfull


Totally agree. I'm grateful he says he hasn't experienced it. I don't wish it on anyone, but the reality is.... abuse exists, victims exist and therefore education about it must exist. And those who have had limited exposure to it need to be VERY careful teaching others how to handle it.


----------



## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> Precisely.... there does come a time when the behavior is so extreme that to condition yourself to receive it and not react to it would be personally detrimental. I walked that road.
> 
> For the record... I know what unconditional acceptance feels like I walked that road with my H after his affair.
> 
> What I refused to walk with him was chronic verbal and emotional abuse of myself and our son. He is a 6'3" man who at one point had both of us terrified of him.
> 
> Therefore... I realized that if I continued to just work on me and be that neutral non reactive, always dignified compassionate being, then I was training myself to accept horrible abuse. When it spilled over to our son... The fight in me surfaced and put an end to what SHOULD have been stopped. There are behaviors that are TOTALLY unacceptable and to accept them as an "outburst" is unwise. For everyone involved. So, FOR myself, our son AND my husband.... I called his crap what it was, crap and held him accountable for his behavior. It changed his life. Now I have a husband and my son has a father. And I didn't have to change men to get it.
> 
> I just STOOD up for what is right and decent and said NO MORE.
> 
> This is where I see the OP.... needing to make the decision of where his cut off line is and asking for the change that needs to happen and if he has already done that... making good on the consequence.


This deserves more likes!


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## Blossom Leigh

Thanks bfree...


----------



## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> Totally agree. I'm grateful he says he hasn't experienced it. I don't wish it on anyone, but the reality is.... abuse exists, victims exist and therefore education about it must exist. And those who have had limited exposure to it need to be VERY careful teaching others how to handle it.


Another one that needs to be multi liked!


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## bfree

Hey RT, did you ever start that thread so we can debate and discuss your ideas? It sure would help keep these threads more on target.


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## Relationship Teacher

ThreeStrikes said:


> I do agree with this, though.
> 
> Let's get OP to a healthy status.


This should help.

Which one would a bully target?



















Having self-esteem instructs others on how to interact with us. As it relates to the OP, the minute he is no longer a victim, he will no longer receive emotional violence. Only he can choose to make that change.


----------



## bfree

Relationship Teacher said:


> This should help.
> 
> Which one would a bully target?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having self-esteem instructs others on how to interact with us. As it relates to the OP, the minute he is no longer a victim, he will no longer receive emotional violence. Only he can choose to make that change.


All of them can be targets.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Relationship Teacher said:


> This should help.
> 
> Which one would a bully target?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Having self-esteem instructs others on how to interact with us*. As it relates to the OP, the minute he is no longer a victim, he will no longer receive emotional violence. Only he can choose to make that change.


No it doesn't. Opening our mouths and educating them on what we will and will not tolerate does. My H was clueless and I am a strong personality. Didn't stop him from unloading his garbage on me.

Reducing this down to "pat" answers is dangerous for those who come here in an uneducated state RT. Because it takes WAY more than just being self esteemed. Its more complex than that.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Blossom Leigh said:


> No it doesn't. Opening our mouths and educating them on what we will and will not tolerate does. My H was clueless and I am a strong personality. Didn't stop him from unloading his garbage on me.


You still saw and received garbage. Mastering emotional intelligence results in true self-esteem. Do we build our level of happiness on the actions and perceptions of others? No. That will never work. The "garbage", as you put it, is a tool. Individuals use it to bargain with. So stop letting them bargain with it. The victim's negative emotional reaction is the bully's proof of concept.



> Reducing this down to "pat" answers is dangerous for those who come here in an uneducated state RT. Because it takes WAY more than just being self esteemed. Its more complex than that.


OP will no longer receive that same "garbage" when his mindset changes. Specifically, OP should show his W that they are not on a battlefield. His W will be forced to match his energy level, instead of him matching her energy level. The first step is agreeing to no longer be a victim.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Relationship Teacher said:


> You still saw and received garbage. Mastering emotional intelligence results in true self-esteem. Do we build our level of happiness on the actions and perceptions of others? No. That will never work. The "garbage", as you put it, is a tool. Individuals use it to bargain with. So stop letting them bargain with it. The victim's negative emotional reaction is the bully's proof of concept.
> 
> 
> 
> OP will no longer receive that same "garbage" when his mindset changes. Specifically, OP should show his W that they are not on a battlefield. His W will be forced to match his energy level, instead of him matching her energy level. The first step is agreeing to no longer be a victim.


Again, this is victim triangle stuff. 

It's nothing new:

The Three Faces of Victim ? An Overview of the Drama Triangle

When the OP wakes up and starts practicing these principles, he will end the relationship. It's the healthy thing to do.

He can only control himself. If his wife wants to live on the corners, there's nothing he can do about it.

People who grasp and understand the triangle steer away from those who live on the corners.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Relationship Teacher said:


> Specifically, OP should show his W that they are not on a battlefield.


By reporting one of my posts (??), you showed me that we are on a battlefield. Because I shared an opposing viewpoint?

Passive aggressive much?


Welcome to my blocked list.:smile2:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Relationship Teacher said:


> You still saw and received garbage. Mastering emotional intelligence results in true self-esteem. Do we build our level of happiness on the actions and perceptions of others? No. That will never work. The "garbage", as you put it, is a tool. Individuals use it to bargain with. So stop letting them bargain with it. The victim's negative emotional reaction is the bully's proof of concept.
> 
> 
> 
> OP will no longer receive that same "garbage" when his mindset changes. Specifically, OP should show his W that they are not on a battlefield. His W will be forced to match his energy level, instead of him matching her energy level. The first step is agreeing to no longer be a victim.



Yep, it was a tool. A tool I no longer would tolerate around me or my child and he could either choose to stop bringing it around or hit the door... his choice.

But it was my WORDS that made that clear.

"Your choice of behavior is no longer welcome around me. Make better choices or get the hell out." Very simple. Be very direct.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok. What would you do in the face of chronic excessive emotional, psychological and verbal abuse? AFTER you already built emotional intelligence?


So, I would still love to hear your personal approach to this if you found yourself facing this situation. You never answered the question.


----------



## bfree

ThreeStrikes said:


> By reporting one of my posts (??), you showed me that we are on a battlefield. Because I shared an opposing viewpoint?
> 
> Passive aggressive much?
> 
> 
> Welcome to my blocked list.:smile2:


Now that's interesting.


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok. What would you do in the face of chronic excessive emotional, psychological and verbal abuse? AFTER you already built emotional intelligence?


Are you asking how one should act/react if *words* pierce the armor? In other words, one has put tremendous effort to eliminate negative reactions but faces incidents that continually cause emotional trauma. Is this correct?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Relationship Teacher said:


> Are you asking how one should act/react if *words* pierce the armor? In other words, one has put tremendous effort to eliminate negative reactions but faces incidents that continually cause emotional trauma. Is this correct?


I'm asking what would YOU do if your significant other chronically emotionally, psychologically and verbally abused YOU every single day, at times all day for several days in row. You couldn't make it a week before heading into another wave of it and yes, after significant emotional intelligence work. 

By the way.... how old are you?


----------



## Relationship Teacher

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm asking what would YOU do if your significant other chronically emotionally, psychologically and verbally abused YOU every single day, at times all day for several days in row. You couldn't make it a week before heading into another wave of it and yes, after significant emotional intelligence work.


Continue doing what I advise. If it is too much of a challenge, then one should speak with SO (fact only). It is hard to answer this question, because it is hypothetical. If one fails to disarm SO on day one, make the same attempt on day two, and so on. It is such a simple process, it is only hard to convince one that they should act/react in this manner in the face of traditionally defined negativity.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Relationship Teacher said:


> Continue doing what I advise. If it is too much of a challenge, then one should speak with SO (fact only). It is hard to answer this question, because it is hypothetical. If one fails to disarm SO on day one, make the same attempt on day two, and so on. It is such a simple process, it is only hard to convince one that they should act/react in this manner in the face of traditionally defined negativity.


It wasn't hypothetical for me... and at times it sounds like it is not hypothetical for the OP. OP, I would like to know how often she is raking you over the coals.

I lived it, RT.

I find it so interesting that you don't use I or me. You default to "one" should do this and one should do that" That is a detached way of answering. 

So lets change the dynamic. 

If you were in the face of daily onslaught and you found it outside of your skills, what would YOU do specifically to handle your personal situation? Following your advice how? Where is your limit? If no amount of "emotional intelligence" work you had done on yourself dealt with the situation, what's your go to at that point? THAT is where this OP is.


----------



## turnera

I feel like jld is here.


----------



## bfree

turnera said:


> I feel like jld is here.


Or Dug


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hmmm... Crickets. I hope you come around to give an example of how you would handle an abusive partner after reaching a personal limit RT.

Chunder, how are things?


----------



## Chuck71

This appeared to be a very informative thread.... until.....

As soon as Grid's calm down... yeah. Same stuff, different thread.

OP .... overall you are getting A-1 advice. 

For those who can not stand others disagreeing with them....

if everyone agreed with everyone, you wouldn't need but 12 people

on TAM giving advice. 

RT.... welcome to TAM.... where we like bare boned straight

to the point advice. Try not to get your feathers ruffled if others 

disagree with you. I have disagreed with Three Strikes and Turnera 

on threads before (not this one) but I still highly regard and respect 

their thoughts / input.


----------



## Lilac23

Blossom Leigh said:


> Chunder, how are things?


He can't come to the internet right now because he's doing dishes then massaging the wife's feet. Then he has long night of scrubbing the toilet and basement floor with his toothbrush ahead of him.


----------



## Chuck71

Omfg ...... Lol


----------



## EVG39

And he thought I was hostile! ?


----------



## EVG39

Meant to add a smiley Lilac. You are too darn funny! You probably could also make some money writing certain kind of ..... Ahem.... Stories


----------



## Lilac23

EVG39 said:


> Meant to add a smiley Lilac. You are too darn funny! You probably could also make some money writing certain kind of ..... Ahem.... Stories


I'm beginning to think CB CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! He appears to have gone AWOL...


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Lilac23 said:


> I'm beginning to think CB CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! He appears to have gone AWOL...


Refer to MEM's post on page 1. Post #9

I think he nailed it.


----------



## cinnabomb

she doesnt tell me not to do anything. i dont think she even cares. and no i wouldnt stop doing the things i love even if she told me to. im not the whipping boy that you have pictured in your head. just because i dont yell back at her and am a calm and level headed person, that doesnt mean im weak. i just choose to be mature and not lose control. but that doesnt seem to work when she is flooded with anger and emotions. 

as for friends i dont drag our personal issues into many friends lives, but a couple close friends know about my struggle. i dont rush home but i still try to be there at least for my baby and be supportive. 



turnera said:


> Do you do it even when she tells you not to?
> 
> Would you give all this up in a second if she wiggled her finger at you?
> 
> Who told you that? jld? Nobody else here would have told you to stand there and let her tear you a new a**hole. We have all told you to WALK AWAY when she disrespects you. THAT is how you get her to be nicer to you, not standing there like a whipping boy.
> 
> Yes, it's basic psychology. If you respect yourself, she will have no choice but to respect you.
> 
> When you do man stuff, are you hanging out and talking about man stuff? Getting their perspective on your wife treating you that way? Watching them to see how THEY handle controversy? That's the point of doing man stuff. You never learned to be a 'guy' given your FOO. You need to learn it. Spend that time bonding with other men. IMO, you need that more than anything else.
> 
> When you go out with the guys, does she even know you're gone? Or is she so wrapped up in work she doesn't remember you live there?
> 
> Or are you hurrying up to get it over with so you can run home to see if she notices you?


----------



## cinnabomb

you hit it on the head, but what does this really mean? demand she get into adrenaline anonymous???



Blossom Leigh said:


> chunder, I've been pondering your situation before adding my comments to you because I hear you when you say you are doing everything mentioned here In regards to working out, having a social life, approaching her with empathy, respect, etc.. My thoughts are she has you shut out to the degree that no matter what you do she will treat you with contempt because what I see is a woman who has developed an addiction to the fast pumping adrenaline with her job, power, prestige as well as this man she is confiding in. Therefore my approach if I were in your shoes would be to detach to the degree of pausing all effort to salvage until I researched, studied and understood what to do in an addict situation. It would be different if she had had the ability to hang onto her priorities and protect her family from her job intruding to this degree, but she didn't. Now it has destroyed your marriage because she is so far in she is addicted. The addiction is running the show. You didnt cause that, you can't control it and you can't cure it. She was not equipped to keep her boundaries straight.
> 
> Situations like these are quite the challenge because its not an external substance by which she is addicted, but an internal one, adrenaline. You can still love her accepting her limitations, but having reciprocity expectations at this point are delusion and self inflicted wounds. So, my second step would be to suspend all expectations of reciprocity for now since she is not capable of emotional presence. My third step would be looking within to assess whether or not I have what it takes in skill and desire to proceed to right a ship with this relationally incapacitated person.
> 
> In my situation it took me about six months to decide that I had the skill and desire, plus had done enough study to figure out HOW to right the ship. In my situation my H was chronically angry, scaring both me and our son. So, I studied on Boundaries, found my truth drum on whatkind of home environment I was willing to accept, then informed him I was no longer willing to accept status quo. I made it very clear he had a very short amount of time to get himself into anger management with a professional because we were already well past my skill set to manage his anger. As a result he spent the bulk of 2014 in professional counsel as well as faith counsel. He gave his heart to Christ by May of that year, surrounded himself with men of faith and today our home is peaceful, loving and fun.
> 
> So you see, its a progression, but it started with me deciding that the status quo was unsustainable, redrawing my perspective on his capacity (dangerous addiction to anger), suspending reciprocity expectations and asking him to see a professional. I remained consistent on beating my truth drum of needing a safe, fun and loving home for our family, that nothing less was acceptable. We've achieved it. I had the skill and desire. He had the capacity and became willing. These are crucuial.


----------



## cinnabomb

im glad you find so much entertainment and joy in another persons sheer misery and pain. I cant imagine you know what it feels like to suddenly go from a wonderful and loving marriage to a surreal and confusing nightmare in an instance, or what it feels like to cry every night for 5 years, or how it feels to pray to god for an answer every day and feel like you no longer believe in him because the pain is so deep that you cant make sense of it. I wouldnt wish the kind of deep emotional and psychological pain that I have endured on ANYONE, even those I dont like. Kind and good people dont deserve it. 

To answer the question of how am I doing....well, I have sort of retracted from her. I cant really bear to be positive and helpful and giving any more. I am still taking care of myself, doing what i need and enjoy, but its still hard. I am used to a lot of affection and miss it. You guys say I need to respect and love myself. I thought I did. Maybe I dont enough. How do you deal with being happy if you arent having sex? This is a big one for me....I am so sex deprived that it becomes really consuming for me at times. sexually frustrated.....cant sleep because of it. The truth is, I probably could get sex if I kept trying but I dont want it with her. I dont want the act of sex with a person who is so hostile and egocentric. so what do I do??




Lilac23 said:


> He can't come to the internet right now because he's doing dishes then massaging the wife's feet. Then he has long night of scrubbing the toilet and basement floor with his toothbrush ahead of him.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> you hit it on the head, but what does this really mean? demand she get into adrenaline anonymous???


A couple of very tricky areas in this situation is you have no personal leverage to enact to affect change in her. The second extremely tricky area is her ego.

What Faith are you?


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## farsidejunky

Stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

That is figurative, BTW.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

What would it cost you to walk away from the marriage? You act like you are a prisoner. I don't get it. Yeah I could see some financial hardship, but at the end of the day, isn't your self respect and self worth more valuable to you than anything you might be getting out of this so-called marriage?


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## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> you hit it on the head, but what does this really mean? demand she get into adrenaline anonymous???


And what does it mean? That the current path is unsustainable and unless something rattles her out of this addiction you will need to begin the process of accepting that you may have to end this or at least separate. If she always has access to you she is taking it for granted. Her access has to become limited.

How would it affect her right now if you limited her access to you?

If it wouldn't at all you have no leverage.

If it WILL affect her you need to ask yourself why and THAT reason is the leverage that may affect her to the degree to rattle her enough, but if it isn't a strong enough impact it won't rattle her and in this situation you are looking for an EFFECTIVE rattle. Fear of loss... Is there a reason that you can think of that she would fear losing you?


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## bandit.45

I would not want to live in a marriage where "leverage" has to exist. I don't want to "leverage" my partner or be "leveraged"....thank you very much. 

If I don't like a movie, I get up and walk out of the theater. OP should be willing to do the same with this sham of a relationship.


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## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> What would it cost you to walk away from the marriage? You act like you are a prisoner. I don't get it. Yeah I could see some financial hardship, but at the end of the day, isn't your self respect and self worth more valuable to you than anything you might be getting out of this so-called marriage?


I don't think he thought he would find himself in this position of losing his wife to this job. Its possible he has already lost all effective leverage to affect her. I think his prison is a state of disbelief and the belief that surely there is some way to save this marriage. He is having a hard time finding his power in this situation. I agree with your self respect and self worth... It will be part of his power and has to as a starting point and anchor.


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## bandit.45

I dunno Blossum. 

I think I would rather lose everything and have to live in a nasty studio apartment above a tattoo parlor in Camden, than spend one more day living with an ungrateful, mean, greedy woman who has no respect for me and treats me like a toilet bowl brush. 

Why do people devalue themselves so much and allow themselves to be treated this way?


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## farsidejunky

bandit.45 said:


> I dunno Blossum.
> 
> I think I would rather lose everything and have to live in a nasty studio apartment above a tattoo parlor in Camden, than spend one more day living with an ungrateful, mean, greedy woman who has no respect for me and treats me like a toilet bowl brush.
> 
> Why do people devalue themselves so much and allow themselves to be treated this way?


QFT.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> I dunno Blossum.
> 
> I think I would rather lose everything and have to live in a nasty studio apartment above a tattoo parlor in Camden, than spend one more day living with an ungrateful, mean, greedy woman who has no respect for me and treats me like a toilet bowl brush.
> 
> Why do people devalue themselves so much and allow themselves to be treated this way?


Totally get that. I just think this one blindsided him and it will take time to get him there. For now he has to find his center to operate from.


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## Blossom Leigh

chunder...


If you will, take time to list to me what you bring to this marriage.


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## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> chunder...
> 
> 
> If you will, take time to list to me what you bring to this marriage.


I wonder what his wife's list would look like?


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## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> I wonder what his wife's list would look like?


Me too and that will part of this process, but because she has effectively rendered herself emotionally unavailable, its the lesser issue at the moment. Unfortunately.


----------



## Thor

chunderbunder said:


> How do you deal with being happy if you arent having sex? This is a big one for me....I am so sex deprived that it becomes really consuming for me at times. sexually frustrated.....cant sleep because of it. The truth is, I probably could get sex if I kept trying but I dont want it with her. I dont want the act of sex with a person who is so hostile and egocentric.


You're not sex deprived. You can take care of yourself privately. But that doesn't fix it, does it? What you need is love, passion, connection, romance, and human touch. Sex with an enthusiastic partner provides all of those things which you can't get from solo sex.

If you were to find a fvck buddy, a friend with benefits, would you be happy? If you were to utilize prostitutes would you be happy? I really doubt it. You'd get the sex but it wouldn't fill the needs you have. You need someone you can feel emotionally connected to. You need someone who is your partner in life, a team mate. You need someone who respects you and wants to be with you.

If you were to write down a list of what is missing in your life, I bet it would be way more than just sex.


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## Blossom Leigh

Exactly Thor. Addiction cuts off emotional availabiliy, so you are spot on. He is in an emotional vaccuum. She has abandoned him emotionally


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## Celes

I'm going to go against the grain here. OP, you sound completely emotionally unstable as well as extremely needy and clingy. That's what's turning off your wife. Crying every day for 5 years? Not sexy and not healthy. So your wife gets upset every time you criticize her eating habits? Um... that's generally how most women would react. But instead of being understanding, you take it as a personal attack and victimize yourself. I don't think the issue is her job, I think she's tired of putting up with your emotional instability and whining. Are you in IC?


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## jld

Celes said:


> I'm going to go against the grain here. OP, you sound completely emotionally unstable as well as extremely needy and clingy. That's what's turning off your wife. Crying every day for 5 years? Not sexy and not healthy. So your wife gets upset every time you criticize her eating habits? Um... that's generally how most women would react. But instead of being understanding, you take it as a personal attack and victimize yourself. I don't think the issue is her job, I think she's tired of putting up with your emotional instability and whining. Are you in IC?


Great post, Celes.


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## TheTruthHurts

Celes said:


> I'm going to go against the grain here. OP, you sound completely emotionally unstable as well as extremely needy and clingy. That's what's turning off your wife. Crying every day for 5 years? Not sexy and not healthy. So your wife gets upset every time you criticize her eating habits? Um... that's generally how most women would react. But instead of being understanding, you take it as a personal attack and victimize yourself. I don't think the issue is her job, I think she's tired of putting up with your emotional instability and whining. Are you in IC?


Both need work.

It's unreasonable and unhealthy to cry at night over your marriage. I would end it - the marriage that is. But I know you wont


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## turnera

Celes said:


> I'm going to go against the grain here. OP, you sound completely emotionally unstable as well as extremely needy and clingy. That's what's turning off your wife. Crying every day for 5 years? Not sexy and not healthy. So your wife gets upset every time you criticize her eating habits? Um... that's generally how most women would react. But instead of being understanding, you take it as a personal attack and victimize yourself. I don't think the issue is her job, I think she's tired of putting up with your emotional instability and whining. Are you in IC?


This is exactly what I'm talking about, cb. You TELL us you're a great guy, strong, don't take crap from her, just don't get riled up. But in reality, you are weak. I'm sorry, but you are. Strong men don't cry every day for five years. Not even TWO days a year for five years, unless some sort of tragedy has occurred like a death. They FIX what's wrong. They DO something about it. You are SO set on saving this marriage at all costs that your wife now sees you as pathetic and weak. It doesn't matter what WE see. What should matter to YOU is how your wife sees you. And if she saw a strong man, she would be attracted to him. 

We can't make you figure out what a strong man looks like. But I guarantee it's not a man who just stands there and lets her rage on him, while he is simultaneously getting none of HIS needs met by her.


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## TheTruthHurts

I think my wife has yelled at me twice in 33 years.


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## Marc878

chunderbunder said:


> im glad you find so much entertainment and joy in another persons sheer misery and pain. I cant imagine you know what it feels like to suddenly go from a wonderful and loving marriage to a surreal and confusing nightmare in an instance, or what it feels like to cry every night for 5 years, or how it feels to pray to god for an answer every day and feel like you no longer believe in him because the pain is so deep that you cant make sense of it. I wouldnt wish the kind of deep emotional and psychological pain that I have endured on ANYONE, even those I dont like. Kind and good people dont deserve it.
> 
> To answer the question of how am I doing....well, I have sort of retracted from her. I cant really bear to be positive and helpful and giving any more. I am still taking care of myself, doing what i need and enjoy, but its still hard. I am used to a lot of affection and miss it. You guys say I need to respect and love myself. I thought I did. Maybe I dont enough. How do you deal with being happy if you arent having sex? This is a big one for me....I am so sex deprived that it becomes really consuming for me at times. sexually frustrated.....cant sleep because of it. The truth is, I probably could get sex if I kept trying but I dont want it with her. I dont want the act of sex with a person who is so hostile and egocentric. so what do I do??


The real problem is you. You allow/enable her treat you like sh!t.

AND only you can fix it. The Calvary isn't coming you're all on your own.

Obviously the only thing you can do at this time is talk about it but whining will get you nothing. 

Do you even have a plan? If not why not try manning up and make one. 

I have a hard time understanding you because I don't take any sh!t from anyone. 

If you could ever get to that point in life you would see how simple it becomes. People then know if they do this you're going to give them these consequences so they don't cross that line and you don't have to worry about it. A lot of problems just don't happen then.


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## jld

Marc878 said:


> The real problem is you. You allow/enable her treat you like sh!t.
> 
> AND only you can fix it. The Calvary isn't coming you're all on your own.
> 
> Obviously the only thing you can do at this time is talk about it but whining will get you nothing.
> 
> Do you even have a plan? If not why not try manning up and make one.
> 
> I have a hard time understanding you because I don't take any sh!t from anyone.
> 
> If you could ever get to that point in life you would see how simple it becomes. People then know if they do this you're going to give them these consequences so they don't cross that line and you don't have to worry about it. A lot of problems just don't happen then.


Marc, this is a financially successful woman we are talking about. She has options.

I doubt she will respond to anything other than true emotional strength in a man. That means seeking to understand her before seeking to be understood, and developing inner security.

"Giving her a consequence" is unlikely to invite anything other than rolled eyes in that sort of woman. Trying to control people is not strength; approaching them with empathy and compassion is.


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## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> im glad you find so much entertainment and joy in another persons sheer misery and pain. I cant imagine you know what it feels like to suddenly go from a wonderful and loving marriage to a surreal and confusing nightmare in an instance, or what it feels like to cry every night for 5 years, or how it feels to pray to god for an answer every day and feel like you no longer believe in him because the pain is so deep that you cant make sense of it. I wouldnt wish the kind of deep emotional and psychological pain that I have endured on ANYONE, even those I dont like. Kind and good people dont deserve it.


I know what it's like to have a relationship that I thought would be forever fall apart in front of my eyes and be helpless to stop it. I know what's like to not be able to sleep and have a pan next my bed because I'd couldn't stop crying and throwing up. I know what's like to drive to work to crying and have to dry my eyes and wipe my face so 'hopefully' no one would know. 

The difference here is that HE didn't see me cry or lose control. I kept my self respect and did not give up myself in order to keep him. I understood that weakness was not the way to get what I wanted. I understood that if I gave up the things that were important to me, I might keep him for a while but the relationship would be utter sh!t and I'd rather lose him than lower myself to accept that.




chunderbunder said:


> To answer the question of how am I doing....well, I have sort of retracted from her. I cant really bear to be positive and helpful and giving any more. I am still taking care of myself, doing what i need and enjoy, but its still hard. I am used to a lot of affection and miss it. You guys say I need to respect and love myself. I thought I did. Maybe I dont enough. How do you deal with being happy if you arent having sex? This is a big one for me....I am so sex deprived that it becomes really consuming for me at times. sexually frustrated.....cant sleep because of it. The truth is, I probably could get sex if I kept trying but I dont want it with her. I dont want the act of sex with a person who is so hostile and egocentric. so what do I do??


Do what men have done for centuries, watch some porn or jack-off in the shower.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Marc, this is a financially successful woman we are talking about. She has options.
> 
> I doubt she will respond to anything other than true emotional strength in a man. That means seeking to understand her before seeking to be understood, and developing inner security.
> 
> "Giving her a consequence" is unlikely to invite anything other than rolled eyes in that sort of woman. Trying to control people is not strength; approaching them with empathy and compassion is.


The OP's job is to reduce that by one.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> The OP's job is to reduce that by one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


?


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> ?


To remove himself as an option.

She will either try to do something about it or not.

Either way, he has his amswer.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> To remove himself as an option.
> 
> She will either try to do something about it or not.
> 
> Either way, he has his amswer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If he cannot change, that is likely what will happen.


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## cinnabomb

not financial in any way. we both have made and saved money and the truth is i dont give a $hit, she can have it all. it would mean the last 13 years of my life, our memories, our pictures, our experiences are all for nothing. it would mean not seeing my angel child as much who i love more than anything. it would mean losing her family, who i also love, and vice versa. losing all of our new friends who are couples with kids. it would mean starting over from scratch. and im not the type of guy to go clubbing and try to hit on women. its just not me. im a romantic. it would mean losing it all. 



bandit.45 said:


> What would it cost you to walk away from the marriage? You act like you are a prisoner. I don't get it. Yeah I could see some financial hardship, but at the end of the day, isn't your self respect and self worth more valuable to you than anything you might be getting out of this so-called marriage?


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## cinnabomb

im a wonderful and loving father and she wants me in our childs life. that is her only fear of loss that i can think of....



Blossom Leigh said:


> And what does it mean? That the current path is unsustainable and unless something rattles her out of this addiction you will need to begin the process of accepting that you may have to end this or at least separate. If she always has access to you she is taking it for granted. Her access has to become limited.
> 
> How would it affect her right now if you limited her access to you?
> 
> If it wouldn't at all you have no leverage.
> 
> If it WILL affect her you need to ask yourself why and THAT reason is the leverage that may affect her to the degree to rattle her enough, but if it isn't a strong enough impact it won't rattle her and in this situation you are looking for an EFFECTIVE rattle. Fear of loss... Is there a reason that you can think of that she would fear losing you?


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## cinnabomb

yes youre right but its way more complicated than that. we are talking about a decade+ of wonderful memories. and its not like every minute of every day is brutal. if it were, id be gone. there are still some nice moments. where we laugh with our baby. or maybe a random hug or kind gesture. its fewer and farther in between of course, but there is still hope. like today she exercised and ate healthy the last couple days. it gave me hope. its complicated. if you built an entire house and then something seemed off about the roof, you wouldnt burn the house down and start over without first trying everything you can to fix it. right???



Blossom Leigh said:


> Totally get that. I just think this one blindsided him and it will take time to get him there. For now he has to find his center to operate from.


----------



## cinnabomb

Spot on. 



jld said:


> marc, this is a financially successful woman we are talking about. She has options.
> 
> I doubt she will respond to anything other than true emotional strength in a man. That means seeking to understand her before seeking to be understood, and developing inner security.
> 
> "giving her a consequence" is unlikely to invite anything other than rolled eyes in that sort of woman. Trying to control people is not strength; approaching them with empathy and compassion is.


----------



## cinnabomb

she didnt see me crying 99% of the time either. its just how I grieved, at losing something so wonderful. 



Lilac23 said:


> I know what it's like to have a relationship that I thought would be forever fall apart in front of my eyes and be helpless to stop it. I know what's like to not be able to sleep and have a pan next my bed because I'd couldn't stop crying and throwing up. I know what's like to drive to work to crying and have to dry my eyes and wipe my face so 'hopefully' no one would know.
> 
> The difference here is that HE didn't see me cry or lose control. I kept my self respect and did not give up myself in order to keep him. I understood that weakness was not the way to get what I wanted. I understood that if I gave up the things that were important to me, I might keep him for a while but the relationship would be utter sh!t and I'd rather lose him than lower myself to accept that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do what men have done for centuries, watch some porn or jack-off in the shower.


----------



## cinnabomb

OK a list of what we each bring:

Me:
10+ years of financial success and stability to our lives. very thrifty, saved plenty of money so we never had to live in fear of tomorrow. 

Bought, maintained, furnished, a beautiful home with a yard for us, as well as other investment commercial property. 

Take care of literally everything in our lives: mail, bills, insurance, cars, getting groceries every week, cooking dinners, getting home supplies, home maintenance, all social planning with friends, dinners, vacations, travel, home organizing (this is a full time job in itself as we dont have a huge space and Im a big believer in clutter-free living and she isnt as much so I am organizing things daily), charity, goodwill, selling old things online, hiring managing and paying the people who work for us, helping wherever i can with baby, etc. Ive done all this for 10+ years, leaving her to focus solely on her career. I wanted to give her the chance to chase her dreams and spread her wings so I took a lot on. 

She told me that I was responsible for bringing her entire family closet together. before me they never saw each other but since i plan trips for all of us, they are all closer. 

Initiating a healthy lifestyle by cooking healthy foods, encouraging exercise and setting up workouts and even massages. 

Planning our lives out well, always thinking about the future, and giving her freedom to focus on her work and shine. 

Buying everything for us and the baby except clothes, finding he best deals etc. 

all major decisions are my domain. my thinking process is much more pragmatic than hers. she gets emotional, and i leave that part out of it and am better at long term planning. getting our baby on the wait list at a great daycare over 1 year in advance is an example. 

planning all date nights, movies, dinners, and initiating sex 100% of the time. 

And then the small stuff. when she is sick, i make her soup from scratch and bring her a blanket. when she coughs late at night i will give her a water or a vitamin C. when she is in the shower and calls out my name because she ran out of conditioner, I will go get it from the closet for her. when she used to come home late from work i would have a little plate of food waiting for her. when her car was vandalized i took care of everything, down to vacuuming each shard of glass out so our baby is safe. 

im sure there are a lot more. im tired of writing all this. 

Her:
she is now the bigger breadwinner of the family. although im proud, to be honest, we dont need the money and id rather have her stay at home and take care of the family than work at all, so this isnt as much for US as it is something for HER. 

she is the primary baby caretaker and a wonderful mother. again, not as much for US as it is for baby. 

honestly, for me and us, I cant think of much. she is more positive than me and at times can be very uplifting, which i appreciate. she sings and dances with baby which i adore. she smiles more than me which i appreciate. i dont know. sometimes lately she makes the bed. thats about it.


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## TheTruthHurts

You keep desperately trying to convince everyone it makes no sense to leave.

We're not buying it.

Why in the world would an action today "undo" the past or affect it at all? Do you have a time machine?

If you had 10 good years then you had 10 good years. If you divorce you still had those years.

You just get early release from this prison you've constructed for yourself

But I suspect you like the drama and misery. That's the only reason to stay now.


----------



## bandit.45

chunderbunder said:


> not financial in any way. we both have made and saved money and the truth is i dont give a $hit, she can have it all. it would mean the last 13 years of my life, our memories, our pictures, our experiences are all for nothing. it would mean not seeing my angel child as much who i love more than anything. it would mean losing her family, who i also love, and vice versa. losing all of our new friends who are couples with kids. it would mean starting over from scratch. and im not the type of guy to go clubbing and try to hit on women. its just not me. im a romantic. it would mean losing it all.


Okay, well....good luck to ya.


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> she didnt see me crying 99% of the time either. its just how I grieved, at losing something so wonderful.


You are being premature in grieving something that is not yet dead. It might be on life support but there is still a chance of resuscitation. I feel like an oncologist screaming at a lung cancer patient to quit smoking, smdh. I have no doubt that you handle many 'man' things in your relationship but you are not 'the man' emotionally in the relationship. Do you come at your wife this way in arguments? Passive aggressively, blaming, trying to induce guilt? Is it possible you are the drama queen in the relationship? You have been getting lots of advice from many people and you either find a way to not take it or just ignore it. How do you expect to be able to advise your wife on things if you cannot handle criticism yourself?


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> OK a list of what we each bring:
> 
> Me:
> 10+ years of financial success and stability to our lives. very thrifty, saved plenty of money so we never had to live in fear of tomorrow.
> 
> Bought, maintained, furnished, a beautiful home with a yard for us, as well as other investment commercial property.
> 
> Take care of literally everything in our lives: mail, bills, insurance, cars, getting groceries every week, cooking dinners, getting home supplies, home maintenance, all social planning with friends, dinners, vacations, travel, home organizing (this is a full time job in itself as we dont have a huge space and Im a big believer in clutter-free living and she isnt as much so I am organizing things daily), charity, goodwill, selling old things online, hiring managing and paying the people who work for us, helping wherever i can with baby, etc. Ive done all this for 10+ years, leaving her to focus solely on her career. I wanted to give her the chance to chase her dreams and spread her wings so I took a lot on.
> 
> She told me that I was responsible for bringing her entire family closet together. before me they never saw each other but since i plan trips for all of us, they are all closer.
> 
> Initiating a healthy lifestyle by cooking healthy foods, encouraging exercise and setting up workouts and even massages.
> 
> Planning our lives out well, always thinking about the future, and giving her freedom to focus on her work and shine.
> 
> Buying everything for us and the baby except clothes, finding he best deals etc.
> 
> all major decisions are my domain. my thinking process is much more pragmatic than hers. she gets emotional, and i leave that part out of it and am better at long term planning. getting our baby on the wait list at a great daycare over 1 year in advance is an example.
> 
> planning all date nights, movies, dinners, and initiating sex 100% of the time.
> 
> And then the small stuff. when she is sick, i make her soup from scratch and bring her a blanket. when she coughs late at night i will give her a water or a vitamin C. when she is in the shower and calls out my name because she ran out of conditioner, I will go get it from the closet for her. when she used to come home late from work i would have a little plate of food waiting for her. when her car was vandalized i took care of everything, down to vacuuming each shard of glass out so our baby is safe.
> 
> im sure there are a lot more. im tired of writing all this.
> 
> Her:
> she is now the bigger breadwinner of the family. although im proud, to be honest, we dont need the money and id rather have her stay at home and take care of the family than work at all, so this isnt as much for US as it is something for HER.
> 
> she is the primary baby caretaker and a wonderful mother. again, not as much for US as it is for baby.
> 
> honestly, for me and us, I cant think of much. she is more positive than me and at times can be very uplifting, which i appreciate. she sings and dances with baby which i adore. she smiles more than me which i appreciate. i dont know. sometimes lately she makes the bed. thats about it.


You sound like a prince of a man! You're going to make someone a wonderful wife someday!


----------



## Marc878

jld said:


> Marc, this is a financially successful woman we are talking about. She has options.
> 
> I doubt she will respond to anything other than true emotional strength in a man. That means seeking to understand her before seeking to be understood, and developing inner security.
> 
> "Giving her a consequence" is unlikely to invite anything other than rolled eyes in that sort of woman. Trying to control people is not strength; approaching them with empathy and compassion is.


You misunderstand completely. It's not about her. It's about him.

His life is and should be what he makes it. The only control he needs is over his own life. I would walk away rather than live this.

You can't control anyone else. Approaching some one with empathy and compassion who has zero respect for you is futile. You'll just get more of the same or worse. 

I'm not sure what book you got this out of but whoever wrote it is a total moron.

I deal and live in the real world where life lessons and common sense come into play. Much more practical and it actually works.


----------



## Marc878

jld said:


> If he cannot change, that is likely what will happen.


You mean become more of a doormat????

I'm not sure that's possible.


----------



## Marc878

farsidejunky said:


> To remove himself as an option.
> 
> She will either try to do something about it or not.
> 
> Either way, he has his amswer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Excellent analogy.


----------



## kristin2349

chunderbunder said:


> OK a list of what we each bring:
> 
> Me:
> 10+ years of financial success and stability to our lives. very thrifty, saved plenty of money so we never had to live in fear of tomorrow.
> 
> Bought, maintained, furnished, a beautiful home with a yard for us, as well as other investment commercial property.
> 
> Take care of literally everything in our lives: mail, bills, insurance, cars, getting groceries every week, cooking dinners, getting home supplies, home maintenance, all social planning with friends, dinners, vacations, travel, home organizing (this is a full time job in itself as we dont have a huge space and Im a big believer in clutter-free living and she isnt as much so I am organizing things daily), charity, goodwill, selling old things online, hiring managing and paying the people who work for us, helping wherever i can with baby, etc. Ive done all this for 10+ years, leaving her to focus solely on her career. I wanted to give her the chance to chase her dreams and spread her wings so I took a lot on.
> 
> She told me that I was responsible for bringing her entire family closet together. before me they never saw each other but since i plan trips for all of us, they are all closer.
> 
> Initiating a healthy lifestyle by cooking healthy foods, encouraging exercise and *setting up workouts and even massages. *
> 
> Planning our lives out well, always thinking about the future, and giving her freedom to focus on her work and shine.
> 
> Buying everything for us and the baby except clothes, finding he best deals etc.
> 
> all major decisions are my domain. my thinking process is much more pragmatic than hers. she gets emotional, and i leave that part out of it and am better at long term planning. getting our baby on the wait list at a great daycare over 1 year in advance is an example.
> 
> planning all date nights, movies, dinners, and initiating sex 100% of the time.
> 
> *And then the small stuff. when she is sick, i make her soup from scratch and bring her a blanket. when she coughs late at night i will give her a water or a vitamin C.*when she is in the shower and calls out my name because she ran out of conditioner, I will go get it from the closet for her. when she used to come home late from work i would have a little plate of food waiting for her. when her car was vandalized i took care of everything, down to vacuuming each shard of glass out so our baby is safe.
> 
> im sure there are a lot more. im tired of writing all this.
> 
> Her:
> *she is now the bigger breadwinner of the family. although im proud, to be honest, we dont need the money and id rather have her stay at home and take care of the family than work at all, so this isnt as much for US as it is something for HER. *
> 
> she is the primary baby caretaker and a wonderful mother. again, not as much for US as it is for baby.
> 
> honestly, for me and us, I cant think of much. she is more positive than me and at times can be very uplifting, which i appreciate. she sings and dances with baby which i adore. she smiles more than me which i appreciate. i dont know. sometimes lately she makes the bed. thats about it.


Stay home and do what to take care of the family? You are doing it all and sound like you think you do it better than she could. She is married to Marth Stewart and Mary Poppins! Your description of your household duties make you sound a bit neurotic and smothering.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What is it that you want chunder...

How long has it been since yall have been intimate?


----------



## Lilac23

kristin2349 said:


> Stay home and do what to take care of the family? You are doing it all and sound like you think you do it better than she could. She is married to Marth Stewart and Mary Poppins! Your description of your household duties make you sound a bit neurotic and smothering.


I feel that is some part of the story we aren't getting, Mr. Stewart Poppins hasn't really pointed out any of his flaws yet and continually whines about how he can't make or implement a decision. It's so hard to find good help...*sigh*


----------



## MEM2020

Yes

The biggest issue here is that Chunder isnt quite willing to set aside the layer of "ego protection" blended into most of his posts. 

There is another fellow on TAM whose marriage is cratering. When asked what his core weaknesses were he replied with:
A list of 40 (I counted) strengths
Followed by 4 to 5 poorly thought out weaknesses. 

This thread feels a bit like that.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunder if you stopped doing all those things for her, what would you fear?


----------



## Lilac23

MEM11363 said:


> Yes
> 
> The biggest issue here is that Chunder isnt quite willing to set aside the layer of "ego protection" blended into most of his posts.
> 
> There is another fellow on TAM whose marriage is cratering. When asked what his core weaknesses were he replied with:
> A list of 40 (I counted) strengths
> Followed by 4 to 5 poorly thought out weaknesses.
> 
> This thread feels a bit like that.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


I am thinking he's Type A and a tad 'high maintenance and overemotional' himself. He is portraying his wife as similar to this lady https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-a-man-like-she-needs-a-good-meal-apparently/ but I have to wonder if she got fed up with his petulant, peevish, snappish, self-aggrandizing, passive aggressive, anal retentive ways. Perhaps she got sick of his whining about problems but offering no solutions. It's been my experience that unless it's a work related function, the wifey usually plans the social life. Does the OP planning strike anyone else as a little odd?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Lilac23 said:


> I am thinking he's Type A and a tad 'high maintenance and overemotional' himself. He is portraying his wife as similar to this lady https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-a-man-like-she-needs-a-good-meal-apparently/ but I have to wonder if she got fed up with his petulant, peevish, snappish, self-aggrandizing, passive aggressive, anal retentive ways. Perhaps she got sick of his whining about problems but offering no solutions. It's been my experience that unless it's a work related function, the wifey usually plans the social life. Does the OP planning strike anyone else as a little odd?


Not in her line of work... Many creative types need a C type as back up managers of the mundane tasks.


----------



## Lilac23

Blossom Leigh said:


> Not in her line of work... Many creative types need a C type as back up managers of the mundane tasks.


Could be possible! There might a dash of Type D in there too! Where are you in birth order, Chunder?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

OP you've heard some honest assessments of how you come across and it's nothing like how you describe yourself.

What do you think about that?

I agree BTW.

Do you see that you come off as whiny and self aggrandizing? There are other descriptors that are accurate.

What do you think?


----------



## MEM2020

It's easy to combine two completely separate traits into 1.

Aggression level and strength. Those two things truly are completely different. 

The ideal type A, type B pairing is with a type B who isn't aggressive but is strong. 

C2 would behave just fine with a strong, non aggressive partner. 





Lilac23 said:


> I am thinking he's Type A and a tad 'high maintenance and overemotional' himself. He is portraying his wife as similar to this lady https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-a-man-like-she-needs-a-good-meal-apparently/ but I have to wonder if she got fed up with his petulant, peevish, snappish, self-aggrandizing, passive aggressive, anal retentive ways. Perhaps she got sick of his whining about problems but offering no solutions. It's been my experience that unless it's a work related function, the wifey usually plans the social life. Does the OP planning strike anyone else as a little odd?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> C2 would behave just fine with a strong, non aggressive partner.


I think most women would.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes 

Provided we clarify that not being aggressive is wholly different than being passive. Passive is not good. 

Strong and assertive works well with just about every other combo. 




jld said:


> I think most women would.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

MEM11363 said:


> Yes
> 
> Provided we clarify that not being aggressive is wholly different than being passive. Passive is not good.
> 
> Strong and assertive works well with just about every other combo.


Calm, assertive, confident is attractive to both genders. I love watching the Bachelor/Bachelorette series because it is a great study in relationship dynamics and one thing I have noticed is when insecurity shows up its an attraction killer. Anytime we are too needy its suffocating. People do not enjoy carrying around THAT much emotional weight from someone else . The ability to be emotionally agile, resilient and fun is very attractive. I've seen both genders attracted to it consistently. And I've seen both genders run the other direction and the attraction die quick when insecurity shows up.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> Her:
> She is now the bigger breadwinner of the family. Although I'm proud, to be honest, we don't need the money and I'd rather have her stay at home and take care of the family than work at all, so this isn't as much for US as it is something for HER.
> 
> She is the primary baby caretaker and a wonderful mother. Again, not as much for US as it is for baby.
> 
> Honestly, for me and us, I can't think of much. She is more positive than me and at times can be very uplifting, which I appreciate. She sings and dances with baby which I adore. She smiles more than me which I appreciate. I don't know. sometimes lately she makes the bed. That's about it.


Fixed all the spelling/grammar (sorry, it's been bugging me).

So anyway, she does what she wants because it makes her happy. She cares for the baby because it makes her happy. She sings for the baby. She smiles cos she wants to. And if it's convenient, she makes the bed for you.

In other words, you are irrelevant. You could disappear and she'd never even notice.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> Fixed all the spelling/grammar (sorry, it's been bugging me).
> 
> So anyway, she does what she wants because it makes her happy. She cares for the baby because it makes her happy. She sings for the baby. She smiles cos she wants to. And if it's convenient, she makes the bed for you.
> 
> In other words, you are irrelevant. You could disappear and she'd never even notice.


Actually I disagree. I think he does SO much, she would be knocked so hard off center she would beg him to come back, he is literally her wife, BUT I'm afraid it will be because of what you said, his relation to her as husband is irrelevant, he is her maidservant and she would want his services back as maidservant and not husband. He could use his level of activity as leverage to rattle her but I don't feel he would have authentic reconciliation.

Honestly I believe the only reach to her heart is through Christ. 

I'm still pondering this one. OP do you work a job outside of the home?


----------



## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> Actually I disagree. I think he does SO much, she would be knocked so hard off center she would beg him to come back, he is literally her wife, BUT I'm afraid it will be because of what you said, his relation to her as husband is irrelevant, he is her maidservant and she would want his services back as maidservant and not husband. He could use his level of activity as leverage to rattle her but I don't feel he would have authentic reconciliation.


The point I was making is that she seems to do everything in her life because SHE matters to her, HE doesn't matter one bit. If she's that successful, and he's saved up that much money, she can easily divorce him and hire a full-time, live-in nanny/housekeeper. Maybe both. And still live the same life. 

She stopped remembering he was around years ago. And THIS is why we tell men to not do everything for a woman.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> The point I was making is that she seems to do everything in her life because SHE matters to her, HE doesn't matter one bit. If she's that successful, and he's saved up that much money, she can easily divorce him and hire a full-time, live-in nanny/housekeeper. Maybe both. And still live the same life.
> 
> She stopped remembering he was around years ago. And THIS is why we tell men to not do everything for a woman.


I agree, because she is seriously taking him for granted and he shiuld have nipped that in the bud A LONG time ago. Because he didn't, he took doing for her to such a degree that he is her maidservant and believe that if he stopped it all suddenly, she would be rattled. It quite possibly would be his one shot at waking her up, BUT he needs to ask himself if he wants a woman who would abandon him like that. Is she worth that one shot. If she is, he better make it count.


----------



## Lilac23

Blossom Leigh said:


> Calm, assertive, confident is attractive to both genders. I love watching the Bachelor/Bachelorette series because it is a great study in relationship dynamics and one thing I have noticed is when insecurity shows up its an attraction killer. Anytime we are too needy its suffocating. People do not enjoy carrying around THAT much emotional weight from someone else . The ability to be emotionally agile, resilient and fun is very attractive. I've seen both genders attracted to it consistently. And I've seen both genders run the other direction and the attraction die quick when insecurity shows up.


Crazy Lace come to mind?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Lilac23 said:


> Crazy Lace come to mind?


Haha!!! Omg... She seriously creeps me out. As does Olivia. Ugh.


----------



## bandit.45

This guy's wife is the reason Harley Davidsons were invented.


----------



## MEM2020

Turneras post is right. 

Let's separate the 'mechanical contributions' to the marriage and the 'emotion contributions' to it. 

From his posts so far, Chunder is mechanically skilled. Good at managing resources and schedules. 

If you carefully read his posts, his emotional contribution to the marriage is not good. 

And the mechanics are easily purchased. It's your emotional footprint in the marriage - that determines how replaceable you are. 

I'm not saying the mechanics are unimportant. I'm saying they are easy to replace. 

If we did a Venn diagram there is overlap. You can give someone gifts and perform acts of service for them - and that makes them feel important. But if you overdo it, you go from loving partner to loyal servant - which was I believe, Turnera's point. 

But remove acts of service and gifts, and now you're dealing with core stuff. Simple questions show the health of the marriage:
- When your partner is in emotional distress are you the person they seek for comfort? Are you their rock?
- When feeling happy/playful, are you the person they seek to play with? Are you their playmate?
- And when they're feeling normal - do they generally seek your company - or avoid it? Are you a good companion for them?

A great marriage is yes to all 3. A good marriage is 2 out of 3. 





turnera said:


> The point I was making is that she seems to do everything in her life because SHE matters to her, HE doesn't matter one bit. If she's that successful, and he's saved up that much money, she can easily divorce him and hire a full-time, live-in nanny/housekeeper. Maybe both. And still live the same life.
> 
> She stopped remembering he was around years ago. And THIS is why we tell men to not do everything for a woman.


----------



## Lilac23

bandit.45 said:


> This guy's wife is the reason Harley Davidsons were invented.


Possibly...but imagine a whiny, clingy wife in reverse (as a male) and she may have felt she needed to become the 'stronger' partner' in the relationship. It's so annoying to be with someone who can't make a decision that she may have gotten used to handling things herself. It's also a big downer on the physical attraction factor, too. She may be totally bossy and b!tchy, but OP needs to figure out what he's doing that has contributed to the current problem.


----------



## MEM2020

A big YES to this

The most consistent themes in this thread are:
- My situation svcks
- I'm totally trapped due to .....
- I'm the innocent victim of a partner who's gone off the rails

So - this is followed by a magic little rationalization

I can't divorce her due to child, love, etc. And she steamrolls me whenever I try to critique her behavior. So there is absolutely NOTHING I can do. 

And the OP has shown a marked allergy to applying constructive suggestions other than book recommendations. 





Lilac23 said:


> Possibly...but imagine a whiny, clingy wife in reverse (as a male) and she may have felt she needed to become the 'stronger' partner' in the relationship. It's so annoying to be with someone who can't make a decision that she may have gotten used to handling things herself. It's also a big downer on the physical attraction factor, too. She may be totally bossy and b!tchy, but OP needs to figure out what he's doing that has contributed to the current problem.


----------



## Lilac23

MEM11363 said:


> A big YES to this
> 
> The most consistent themes in this thread are:
> - My situation svcks
> - I'm totally trapped due to .....
> - I'm the innocent victim of a partner who's gone off the rails
> 
> So - this is followed by a magic little rationalization
> 
> I can't divorce her due to child, love, etc. And she steamrolls me whenever I try to critique her behavior. So there is absolutely NOTHING I can do.
> 
> And the OP has shown a marked allergy to applying constructive suggestions other than book recommendations.


I don't know what to do, tell me what to do, I don't want to do that, I already do that, if I do that do you promise it will work, etc.


----------



## cinnabomb

stop posting in my thread lilac. youre just rude and not helpful at all. i came here for advice and help not to be ridiculed by a bitter person. 



Lilac23 said:


> You sound like a prince of a man! You're going to make someone a wonderful wife someday!


----------



## cinnabomb

yes i work a full time job. i also manage our commercial properties. as for religion, neither of us really believe in organized religion....just more agnostic. 



Blossom Leigh said:


> Actually I disagree. I think he does SO much, she would be knocked so hard off center she would beg him to come back, he is literally her wife, BUT I'm afraid it will be because of what you said, his relation to her as husband is irrelevant, he is her maidservant and she would want his services back as maidservant and not husband. He could use his level of activity as leverage to rattle her but I don't feel he would have authentic reconciliation.
> 
> Honestly I believe the only reach to her heart is through Christ.
> 
> I'm still pondering this one. OP do you work a job outside of the home?


----------



## cinnabomb

to answer you:

- When your partner is in emotional distress are you the person they seek for comfort? Are you their rock?
Yes. She still leans on me when she is down, sad, scared, stressed etc. 
- When feeling happy/playful, are you the person they seek to play with? Are you their playmate?
This has really become our baby, not me anymore. 
- And when they're feeling normal - do they generally seek your company - or avoid it? Are you a good companion for them?
An example of something that bothers me is that she has being coming home and putting on headphones and binge watching shows on her laptop. its like a clear message that she doesnt want to interact with me. if i say "honey do you want to hang out, watch tv, etc" she will always comply, but i find it wierd that her default is to come home and bury herself in those shows. 




MEM11363 said:


> Turneras post is right.
> 
> Let's separate the 'mechanical contributions' to the marriage and the 'emotion contributions' to it.
> 
> From his posts so far, Chunder is mechanically skilled. Good at managing resources and schedules.
> 
> If you carefully read his posts, his emotional contribution to the marriage is not good.
> 
> And the mechanics are easily purchased. It's your emotional footprint in the marriage - that determines how replaceable you are.
> 
> I'm not saying the mechanics are unimportant. I'm saying they are easy to replace.
> 
> If we did a Venn diagram there is overlap. You can give someone gifts and perform acts of service for them - and that makes them feel important. But if you overdo it, you go from loving partner to loyal servant - which was I believe, Turnera's point.
> 
> But remove acts of service and gifts, and now you're dealing with core stuff. Simple questions show the health of the marriage:
> - When your partner is in emotional distress are you the person they seek for comfort? Are you their rock?
> - When feeling happy/playful, are you the person they seek to play with? Are you their playmate?
> - And when they're feeling normal - do they generally seek your company - or avoid it? Are you a good companion for them?
> 
> A great marriage is yes to all 3. A good marriage is 2 out of 3.


----------



## cinnabomb

how so???? give me an example that i am allergic to advice. im here, trying to GET advice. thats why im asking all these questions. 




MEM11363 said:


> A big YES to this
> 
> The most consistent themes in this thread are:
> - My situation svcks
> - I'm totally trapped due to .....
> - I'm the innocent victim of a partner who's gone off the rails
> 
> So - this is followed by a magic little rationalization
> 
> I can't divorce her due to child, love, etc. And she steamrolls me whenever I try to critique her behavior. So there is absolutely NOTHING I can do.
> 
> And the OP has shown a marked allergy to applying constructive suggestions other than book recommendations.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> to answer you:
> 
> - When your partner is in emotional distress are you the person they seek for comfort? Are you their rock?
> Yes. She still leans on me when she is down, sad, scared, stressed etc.
> - When feeling happy/playful, are you the person they seek to play with? Are you their playmate?
> This has really become our baby, not me anymore.
> - And when they're feeling normal - do they generally seek your company - or avoid it? Are you a good companion for them?
> An example of something that bothers me is that she has being coming home and putting on headphones and binge watching shows on her laptop. its like a clear message that she doesnt want to interact with me. if i say "honey do you want to hang out, watch tv, etc" she will always comply, but i find it wierd that her default is to come home and bury herself in those shows.


What shows are they?

How much do you know about this guy she's talking to? Is there a link between something about him and those shows?

OR, because she is in the biz, is it part of her preparing for her job?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Have you read ...


Boundaries
You Don't Have To Take it Anymore
Betrayal Bonds
Codependency No More
Not Just Friends


----------



## farsidejunky

CB:

You need to have a very simple conversation with your wife.

"When you are ready to make our marriage a priority again, please let me know."

Then be out of the house at least three days a week. Find something fun to do like BJJ or martial arts, or a dancing class, or as Turnera likes to suggest go volunteer somewhere. No bars and no women.

Do not tell her what you are doing unless she asks. Just tell her you will be out. Be home at a reasonable hour, say shortly before bed time.

You must...MUST...stop feeding the dynamic of you chasing and pining over her. She likely sees you as needy.

It sucks at first, but one of the best things I did in the rekindling of my relationship was giving my wife the space to miss me. But that is the side effect, not the primary effect, which is to rediscover who you are alone. Unless you get a grasp on that, you will never get a grasp on you as a relationship partner.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> CB:
> 
> You need to have a very simple conversation with your wife.
> 
> "When you are ready to make our marriage a priority again, please let me know."
> 
> Then be out of the house at least three days a week. Find something fun to do like BJJ or martial arts, or a dancing class, or as Turnera likes to suggest go volunteer somewhere. No bars and no women.
> 
> Do not tell her what you are doing unless she asks. Just tell her you will be out. Be home at a reasonable hour, say shortly before bed time.
> 
> You must...MUST...stop feeding the dynamic of you chasing and pining over her. She likely sees you as needy.
> 
> It sucks at first, but one of the best things I did in the rekindling of my relationship was giving my wife the space to miss me. But that is the side effect, not the primary effect, which is to rediscover who you are alone. Unless you get a grasp on that, you will never get a grasp on you as a relationship partner.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Agree 1000%.


----------



## farsidejunky

I will add that Mem was the one advocating for giving her space. CB, be defensive if you want, but he normally sees things with great clarity. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> An example of something that bothers me is that she has being coming home and putting on headphones and binge watching shows on her laptop. its like a clear message that she doesnt want to interact with me. if i say "*honey do you want to* hang out, watch tv, etc" she will always comply, but i find it wierd that her default is to come home and bury herself in those shows.


chunder, if you'd really been reading the material, you would have already spotted the problem. You don't ASK your wife to do something with you. That's beta, that's whiny, that's weak. You go over to her, take her by her hands, grin at her, pull her over to you, plant a big kiss on her mouth, and pull her into the bathroom where you have a bath ready and waiting for the two of you. 

Or something similar.

That's the kind of person we have been trying to teach you to be. The kind of person you'd read about in NMMNG or MMSLP or Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. The real man, the strong man, takes what he wants, rarely ASKS for anything, is confident enough to expect her to do things with him and, if she refuses, he shrugs and says 'your loss' and he goes and does it anyway. THAT man, she'd be attracted to and would rather spend time with than watching her shows.


----------



## MEM2020

CB,
Well let's start at the beginning, and roll forward. 

Step one is accepting that there really are only two play books to choose from. The first play book is titled: (self) - changing me
The second: (chymp) changing my partner

First question is, which playbook are you focused on? Self or chymp? 





chunderbunder said:


> how so???? give me an example that i am allergic to advice. im here, trying to GET advice. thats why im asking all these questions.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> chunder, if you'd really been reading the material, you would have already spotted the problem. You don't ASK your wife to do something with you. That's beta, that's whiny, that's weak. You go over to her, take her by her hands, grin at her, pull her over to you, plant a big kiss on her mouth, and pull her into the bathroom where you have a bath ready and waiting for the two of you.
> 
> Or something similar.
> 
> That's the kind of person we have been trying to teach you to be. The kind of person you'd read about in NMMNG or MMSLP or Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. The real man, the strong man, takes what he wants, rarely ASKS for anything, is confident enough to expect her to do things with him and,* if she refuses, he shrugs and says 'your loss' and he goes and does it anyway. * THAT man, she'd be attracted to and would rather spend time with than watching her shows.


I would never want to be with a man that would care so little about my feelings as to treat me that way. 

I would want us to talk about how we each felt, and then work something out that we each could live with.

Just wanted to offer another pov, chunder.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> CB,
> Well let's start at the beginning, and roll forward.
> 
> Step one is accepting that there really are only two play books to choose from. The first play book is titled: (self) - changing me
> The second: (chymp) *changing my partner*
> 
> First question is, which playbook are you focused on? Self or chymp?


And MEM, when does the bolded ever work anyway?


----------



## cinnabomb

well the truth is, i started off only hoping that therapy would change her. ive since learned that i too need to change. So I have been trying for months, but we are talking about undoing decades of behavior here and I am struggling with HOW to make even little changes. for those of you who have no patience, understanding, or sympathy for a tough situation like this, please dont bother posting here. It doesnt help. Venting your frustrations with me, yelling "WE ALREADY TOLD YOU TO CHANGE. JUST CHANGE!" isnt helping. Post elsewhere please. 

Im trying to change, but still struggling with the "how". Which is why I posted here in the first place. For example...with the situation with her watching shows on her headphones every day. Any alternate advice on how to deal with that, OTHER than drag her the bathroom to a bath which she has no interest in as she doesnt like baths? Is it something that we need to talk about? My guess is that she isnt aware she is blocking me out....its just her way of comforting herself after a stressful day...tuning the world out and immersing in a show, an altered reality. 

What about sex? I am severely sexually frustrated for many years. I have a strong libido but she doenst initiate sex. I initiate but there are two issues:
1. She often rejects my attempt at sex, because shes tired. She is tired a lot. She works hard, breastfeeds baby all day, and also doesnt have great eating habits or exercises, so she lacks enough energy for her lifestyle. So I am sympathetic, I understand shes tired. 
2. The other big issue is that because of our marital issues, I often just dont want to even try to initiate. Half, because I fear rejection, and half, because I am bitter about the situation and just dont feel as loving to her anymore. When we have a good day, and she matches my affection, then its much easier. 
Should we talk about it with MC? Alone? Should we NOT talk about it and I just DO something about it? But what?? (And yes I understand what some of you are saying about "starting to respect myself and she will find me more attractive, which I am working on. No need to repeat. But Im talking about more of a micro level here, not macro). 

thanks




MEM11363 said:


> CB,
> Well let's start at the beginning, and roll forward.
> 
> Step one is accepting that there really are only two play books to choose from. The first play book is titled: (self) - changing me
> The second: (chymp) changing my partner
> 
> First question is, which playbook are you focused on? Self or chymp?


----------



## cinnabomb

OK good advice. Is MC a hinderance, though? She often doesnt want to talk about ANYTHING relationship related without the MC. I might bring up something and she will say "lets just wait and talk to the MC". She gets VERY flooded and angry very easily when feeling any sort of criticism. MC has discovered that she has severe mother issues of feeling judged and its become heightened in her new job environment, which has made my life much more difficult. Anything I say deemed as slightly critical is instantly met with pure anger and agression. An example might be "Honey I thought it was rude how you reacted to me earlier when I asked for your help with something. You were dissmisive, etc". She will instantly react with "I FEEL JUDGED" and turn to anger. 

How do you recommend I deal with this?



farsidejunky said:


> CB:
> 
> You need to have a very simple conversation with your wife.
> 
> "When you are ready to make our marriage a priority again, please let me know."
> 
> Then be out of the house at least three days a week. Find something fun to do like BJJ or martial arts, or a dancing class, or as Turnera likes to suggest go volunteer somewhere. No bars and no women.
> 
> Do not tell her what you are doing unless she asks. Just tell her you will be out. Be home at a reasonable hour, say shortly before bed time.
> 
> You must...MUST...stop feeding the dynamic of you chasing and pining over her. She likely sees you as needy.
> 
> It sucks at first, but one of the best things I did in the rekindling of my relationship was giving my wife the space to miss me. But that is the side effect, not the primary effect, which is to rediscover who you are alone. Unless you get a grasp on that, you will never get a grasp on you as a relationship partner.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## cinnabomb

Oh I want to mention 1 more thing. 2 days ago was the first time we had been intimate in a long time. I was super hrny and we had had a pretty positive day so far, so I initiated when baby was napping, 1 of only 2 possible times when it could happen. At first she resisted saying lets nap instead, but after a little prodding she agreed and we did. it was enjoyable, she actually made some sounds of enjoyment, which she hasnt done in a long time. 

I bring this up because I firmly believe that more sex will bring us closer in many ways, and I have to say that after this, the rest of the day was a joy. She was different...more playful, kind, energetic. We have talked about this in MC yet, but I just cant go on in a marriage having sex 1 time per 1 or 2 months. I need it a LOT. ideally every night. It affects my mood, my ability to sleep, my stress, etc. We had not had sex in months before the other day. 

How do you recommend we broach this subject, knowing that this is super important to me to do it more often and that I truly believe and have seen that it improves our relationship?


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> stop posting in my thread lilac. youre just rude and not helpful at all. i came here for advice and help not to be ridiculed by a bitter person.


I've tried giving you lots of advice, chunder, but you ignore it or try to find reasons to take any one's advice. You have to face the fact that you have some responsibility for where things are in your marriage and if you can't accept an honest assessment of how you come across then your wife isn't the only one with problems in the marriage. Ciao!


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> An example might be "Honey I thought it was rude how you reacted to me earlier when I asked for your help with something. You were dissmisive, etc". She will instantly react with "I FEEL JUDGED" and turn to anger.


And your response to THAT should be "I'm sorry you feel that way. Let me know when you can talk without getting angry. Until then, I'm off to go do something that's rewarding to ME." And then you leave.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> well the truth is, i started off only hoping that therapy would change her. ive since learned that i too need to change. So I have been trying for months, but we are talking about undoing decades of behavior here and I am struggling with HOW to make even little changes. for those of you who have no patience, understanding, or sympathy for a tough situation like this, please dont bother posting here. It doesnt help. Venting your frustrations with me, yelling "WE ALREADY TOLD YOU TO CHANGE. JUST CHANGE!" isnt helping. Post elsewhere please.
> 
> Im trying to change, but still struggling with the "how". Which is why I posted here in the first place. For example...with the situation with her watching shows on her headphones every day. Any alternate advice on how to deal with that, OTHER than drag her the bathroom to a bath which she has no interest in as she doesnt like baths? Is it something that we need to talk about? My guess is that she isnt aware she is blocking me out....its just her way of comforting herself after a stressful day...tuning the world out and immersing in a show, an altered reality.
> 
> What about sex? I am severely sexually frustrated for many years. I have a strong libido but she doenst initiate sex. I initiate but there are two issues:
> 1. She often rejects my attempt at sex, because shes tired. She is tired a lot. She works hard, breastfeeds baby all day, and also doesnt have great eating habits or exercises, so she lacks enough energy for her lifestyle. So I am sympathetic, I understand shes tired.
> 2. The other big issue is that because of our marital issues, I often just dont want to even try to initiate. Half, because I fear rejection, and half, because I am bitter about the situation and just dont feel as loving to her anymore. When we have a good day, and she matches my affection, then its much easier.
> Should we talk about it with MC? Alone? Should we NOT talk about it and I just DO something about it? But what?? (And yes I understand what some of you are saying about "starting to respect myself and she will find me more attractive, which I am working on. No need to repeat. But Im talking about more of a micro level here, not macro).
> 
> thanks


Your preoccupation with sex is most likely making you a porcupine (moody). She is escaping into the shows so she doesn't have to experience that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> OK good advice. Is MC a hinderance, though? She often doesnt want to talk about ANYTHING relationship related without the MC. I might bring up something and she will say "lets just wait and talk to the MC". She gets VERY flooded and angry very easily when feeling any sort of criticism. MC has discovered that she has severe mother issues of feeling judged and its become heightened in her new job environment, which has made my life much more difficult. Anything I say deemed as slightly critical is instantly met with pure anger and agression. An example might be "Honey I thought it was rude how you reacted to me earlier when I asked for your help with something. You were dissmisive, etc". She will instantly react with "I FEEL JUDGED" and turn to anger.
> 
> How do you recommend I deal with this?


Get very familiar with Complex PTSD. There is a book on Amazon that will help you understand what she experiences and create a reasonable approach that facilitates progress. And help with your counseling sessions.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> Oh I want to mention 1 more thing. 2 days ago was the first time we had been intimate in a long time. I was super hrny and we had had a pretty positive day so far, so I initiated when baby was napping, 1 of only 2 possible times when it could happen. At first she resisted saying lets nap instead, but after a little prodding she agreed and we did. it was enjoyable, she actually made some sounds of enjoyment, which she hasnt done in a long time.
> 
> I bring this up because I firmly believe that more sex will bring us closer in many ways, and I have to say that after this, the rest of the day was a joy. She was different...more playful, kind, energetic. We have talked about this in MC yet, but I just cant go on in a marriage having sex 1 time per 1 or 2 months. I need it a LOT. ideally every night. It affects my mood, my ability to sleep, my stress, etc. We had not had sex in months before the other day.
> 
> How do you recommend we broach this subject, knowing that this is super important to me to do it more often and that I truly believe and have seen that it improves our relationship?


What are her views of your sex drive?


----------



## MEM2020

CB,
You've actually started to come along pretty well - since starting here. 

If you stick with it, this will be the hardest thing you've ever done. And if you succeed by far the most fulfilling. 

And you've already made the first big step. Which is accepting that, hard as it is, you're going to have to change yourself. 

And from a tactical perspective, that means answering tough questions, in a clear direct and non defensive manner. You've already begun doing so, which is great. 

So you asked me a question, and in the spirit of reciprocity I'm going to try to answer it. You asked - why is C2 coming home and avoiding interaction with me - by plugging in headphones?

Let's revisit that little triage of: 1. seeking comfort, seeking 2. playfulness and 3. seeking companionship. 

She's not seeking your companionship. In fact, she's kind of avoiding it. 

So now let's acknowledge the elephant in the room. This is a sincere observation, not a personal attack. She's avoiding you because overall, she often finds your interactions to be: overall emotionally negative. I'm not saying there isn't any positive aspect to them. I'm saying that the overall, the net experience for her, is negative. 

And the causes of that are not a lack of charm, wit and personality. I'm being totally serious here. If that were the case, she wouldn't have fallen in love with you, and married you. 

The most likely causes are - that over time you've become:
- Unhappy
- Kind of negative in general
- Quick to complain either verbally or non verbally about life in general.

This is descriptive, not critical. It sometimes happens in a marriage. 

If I'm wrong - tell me. My goal isn't to be right, it's to be helpful. But if I'm wrong, you need to tell me/us why she is avoiding you? 

Make sense? 













chunderbunder said:


> well the truth is, i started off only hoping that therapy would change her. ive since learned that i too need to change. So I have been trying for months, but we are talking about undoing decades of behavior here and I am struggling with HOW to make even little changes. for those of you who have no patience, understanding, or sympathy for a tough situation like this, please dont bother posting here. It doesnt help. Venting your frustrations with me, yelling "WE ALREADY TOLD YOU TO CHANGE. JUST CHANGE!" isnt helping. Post elsewhere please.
> 
> Im trying to change, but still struggling with the "how". Which is why I posted here in the first place. For example...with the situation with her watching shows on her headphones every day. Any alternate advice on how to deal with that, OTHER than drag her the bathroom to a bath which she has no interest in as she doesnt like baths? Is it something that we need to talk about? My guess is that she isnt aware she is blocking me out....its just her way of comforting herself after a stressful day...tuning the world out and immersing in a show, an altered reality.
> 
> What about sex? I am severely sexually frustrated for many years. I have a strong libido but she doenst initiate sex. I initiate but there are two issues:
> 1. She often rejects my attempt at sex, because shes tired. She is tired a lot. She works hard, breastfeeds baby all day, and also doesnt have great eating habits or exercises, so she lacks enough energy for her lifestyle. So I am sympathetic, I understand shes tired.
> 2. The other big issue is that because of our marital issues, I often just dont want to even try to initiate. Half, because I fear rejection, and half, because I am bitter about the situation and just dont feel as loving to her anymore. When we have a good day, and she matches my affection, then its much easier.
> Should we talk about it with MC? Alone? Should we NOT talk about it and I just DO something about it? But what?? (And yes I understand what some of you are saying about "starting to respect myself and she will find me more attractive, which I am working on. No need to repeat. But Im talking about more of a micro level here, not macro).
> 
> thanks


----------



## jld

chunderbunder said:


> OK good advice. Is MC a hinderance, though? She often doesnt want to talk about ANYTHING relationship related without the MC. I might bring up something and she will say "lets just wait and talk to the MC". She gets VERY flooded and angry very easily when feeling any sort of criticism. MC has discovered that she has severe mother issues of feeling judged and its become heightened in her new job environment, which has made my life much more difficult. Anything I say deemed as slightly critical is instantly met with pure anger and agression. An example might be "Honey I thought it was rude how you reacted to me earlier when I asked for your help with something. You were dissmisive, etc". She will instantly react with "I FEEL JUDGED" and turn to anger.
> 
> How do you recommend I deal with this?


Stop judging her.

But show appreciation when you can do it sincerely.

She is too fragile right now for any sort of completely honest feedback.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> I need it a LOT. ideally every night. It affects my mood, my ability to sleep, my stress, etc.


And as a woman, I would tell YOU that the thought of having to have it every night would affect MY mood, reduce MY ability to sleep, and increase MY stress. The thought of sex every single day with a man who is a Nice Guy and won't stand up for himself makes my skin crawl. The only reason I do it as often as I do is that my husband doesn't ASK me to do it, he just makes it happen. Like you did that time.

Your posts are ALL ABOUT making her change, cb. You say you want to change but you don't seem to have the mental capacity - or maybe the desire? - to look at this in the BIG picture. Do you even understand what a Nice Guy IS? Can you envision what a NON-Nice Guy would look like? What he would do?

Until you can put that much thought into it, until you can come up with the complex thinking needed to even understand what a NON-Nice Guy is and does, how can you even hope to become one?

You keep asking for a specific example for a specific case. That's ludicrous; that's putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. You could do a dozen 'specific reactions' and if you don't address the CORE PERSON you are inside - the man WILLING to let his wife ignore him or criticize him or direct him - you will wake up every single day, still a Nice Guy.

You don't need MC. In your case MC is just a weak man hoping yet ANOTHER person can make his wife change to be what he wants, without him having to change. 

You need IC. For you and you alone. To rewire YOUR brain so that you stop being weak, reactive instead of proactive, and willing to walk away when you're disrespected. Until you can figure out how to BE THAT PERSON, nothing is ever going to improve.

Print out this thread, take it to your IC, and ask for help.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> And your response to THAT should be "I'm sorry you feel that way. Let me know when you can talk without getting angry. Until then, I'm off to go do something that's rewarding to ME." And then you leave.


She might like that.

I would try connecting with her instead, chunder. Try to validate her when you can do it sincerely.


----------



## cinnabomb

theres no doubt about it. im human. i havent had sex in 4 months. i have a strong libido. it makes me resentful and certainly moody. thats a normal thing for guys to go through. when we arent having sex, we feel imasculated, like something is missing from our lives. we are hard wired to want it....all the time, sometimes haha. so yes...its important to me. i also dont like that when i dont get it, it affects my mood, it distances me and my wife, and it makes me question ourr future. when we are intimate, everything is better. 

to answer the Q about her thoughts on it..honestly, we havent even really had that talk. its at the point where every conversation is uncomfortable to broach with her. we barely talk. in any given day we probably only have 5 minutes of actual non-baby related interaction. its really sad. i think that she has no clue about how much i need sex. i think to her its different, like if she is in the mood she might want it, but its not something that will keep her up, night after night. if you arent a guy, im not sure its easy to explain what its like laying in bed with a bone and needing to release it but cant. its brutal. no sleep the whole night. 



Blossom Leigh said:


> Your preoccupation with sex is most likely making you a porcupine (moody). She is escaping into the shows so she doesn't have to experience that.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

You have been given great advice actually, but I can understand why you can't see it as clearly as we do.

We read tons of threads and surprisingly, people react the same way over and over again.

The trick is for us to really see objectively what your interactions are like. Then maybe 2 or 3 different reasons or responses probably address the vast majority of cases.

You wouldn't believe it - frankly almost no one believes it.

Then your issues will run their course, and after a while we grab you by the hand, pull you over, and you join us in telling the next guy what you've learned. And it either worked or didn't for you - and think of all the emotion you have now - well you will have the same passion warning the next guy.

So keep that in mind and try not to be defensive around the TAM members with the harshest replies. I suspect you will be similar when you're on our side giving advice.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Just a thought... If you read His Needs Her Needs, if explains to women that most men want to come home to calm and be allowed to unwind before being bombarded with the litany of issues the typical W accrues before the H's arrival.

That need is a harsh one for a lot of women because they feel bottled up anyway and have a lot to express.

But the book points out this is a very high priority for many men.

So given the high powered role your W has, could it have nothing to do with you? Maybe she just needs to decompress from a stressful day.

I've asked my W to stop bombarding me. Instead I ask her to set up a time to discuss things - ahead of time - and get my concurrence. I need time to transition from decompressing to solving household issues.

So - when she gets home, tell her you'll like to (... Something specific...) at (...some specific time...). E.g. "Hi Hun welcome home - busy day here - I'm sure yours was busy too" (note: friendly hello - inform her about your day in a positive and brief way with no problems, and don't ask about hers but let her know you considered her day). Then "in an hour at 8:00 I'm going to watch dddddd on Netflix and I'd like to relax with you on the couch during the show." (Have media you can control the content and time of - like Netflix - and have a show you like that she doesn't hate picked out. INFORM her you're watching it - you are planning on relaxing and enjoying yourself. Inform her YOU want her by your side because you want her company. Don't ask what she wants.)

She will say:

- sure - WIN - move on

- something negative - "I hate that show" or "I'm too tired" or "we always watch what you want", etc. - WIN - you do a gentle smile and tip your head a bit and say "I'm sorry you're having a bad day" or "that's a shame" or "maybe you'll enjoy it if you watch it". Do not argue. Do not seek clarification. Do not try to absorb her negativity or worry about making her feel better. Remember - you're going to watch a show - that's the topic so stay on topic. You showed her you are considerate enough to be a little empathic but you are not her savior. Now say "I hope you feel better after to unwind and join me at 8:00 on the couch. I haven't watched ddddd before but I've heard good things." You are firmly focused on your plan to have a good time; you are clearly in a positive mood; you let her have her own emotions but you haven't mirrored her mood. Smile and walk away. It's important to have something specific you are doing now.

- she argues actively with you "why are you ffffff!" or "you haven't done xxxxxx and you're supposed to help with xxxxx!" - WIN - you react like scenario 2 above. "In sorry you're so upset" with a little concern on your face. Then "hope you are calm at 8:00 and can join me..." Gentle smile and walk away to do that pre planned task

These are all WIN situations because you were calm, happy, fun, a little empathetic, didn't react or overreact, didn't get your feelings hurt, and it is clear the only one bringing drama is her. She's not a dope and she'll be struck in the forehead with a brick when you walk away, knowing she was played and you had all the power in the exchange. And since it was all positive energy on your part, she can't really complain about the power switch.

The worse case scenario is she ignores you. She might. Then it is critically important to keep up the whole positive front. If you act like I described - even if she's ignoring you - she WILL notice.

If she ignores you from now on and you do this for a week, then you're in a position to suggest separation and divorce, saying "you don't seem to like spending time with me. That's kind of a requirement for a good wife. So I suspect you want out of this marriage".

But we'll be here to steer you if it comes to that


----------



## MEM2020

CB,

Your sex life is amplifying your issues, but it didn't cause them. 

There's a pyramid looks like this. Base, middle, top. 

Base - Craves your company - this comes from having a pattern of interactions that are 'overall positive'.
Middle - Craves your touch (non sexual affection) - This is often about trust. Is the affection a 'give', from me to you. Or the beginning of an 'ask' for sex?
Top - Craves the intense connection of sex? 

Can't fix the higher levels til the lower ones are humming along....







chunderbunder said:


> theres no doubt about it. im human. i havent had sex in 4 months. i have a strong libido. it makes me resentful and certainly moody. thats a normal thing for guys to go through. when we arent having sex, we feel imasculated, like something is missing from our lives. we are hard wired to want it....all the time, sometimes haha. so yes...its important to me. i also dont like that when i dont get it, it affects my mood, it distances me and my wife, and it makes me question ourr future. when we are intimate, everything is better.
> 
> to answer the Q about her thoughts on it..honestly, we havent even really had that talk. its at the point where every conversation is uncomfortable to broach with her. we barely talk. in any given day we probably only have 5 minutes of actual non-baby related interaction. its really sad. i think that she has no clue about how much i need sex. i think to her its different, like if she is in the mood she might want it, but its not something that will keep her up, night after night. if you arent a guy, im not sure its easy to explain what its like laying in bed with a bone and needing to release it but cant. its brutal. no sleep the whole night.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, I said that so that he would be aware of when he is prickly and work to create a different environment around his wife... not sure you got that from what I said chunder, but that was the intent.


----------



## cinnabomb

youre 100% right. honestly if i built a simple timeline, it would go
1. marriage is great, both working, making money, things are good
2. wife makes major change in career, takes on a huge challenge in a tough environment with an a$$hole partner
3. wife struggles to survive and adjust, adopts survival skill of aggression to survive, but isnt sure how to control it yet. 
4. wife brings home aggression and a sudden sensitivity to many things, treats husband disrespectfully and neglectfully. 
5. husband tries and tries to make sense of it and fix it, but no to avail. husband begins shutting down, emotionally, physically, etc, to protect himself from further pain. 
6. we have a child. things get 100x worse between us, as the baby that we both adore is the cause for arguments between two people with strong opinions. 
7. husband is left feeling despair, depressed even, and starting to question if there is any future here. We seek MC and IC help. 

Thats where we are at. yes, you are right. I can be a downer around the home at times. I take on a ton of our responsibilities and as a result, I can often complain about all the $hit i deal with. its probably not fun to be around. im certainly struggling with it and trying to learn about how to deal with it. I even started meditation this week. Im not good at faking it. this is the hard part. If I am upset at her, for being rude, or disrespectful, or for gaining weight recently, or lack of sex...it consumes me. How do I put those aside and try to be "joyful" or "positive" around her??? This is what I am struggling with. 



MEM11363 said:


> CB,
> You've actually started to come along pretty well - since starting here.
> 
> If you stick with it, this will be the hardest thing you've ever done. And if you succeed by far the most fulfilling.
> 
> And you've already made the first big step. Which is accepting that, hard as it is, you're going to have to change yourself.
> 
> And from a tactical perspective, that means answering tough questions, in a clear direct and non defensive manner. You've already begun doing so, which is great.
> 
> So you asked me a question, and in the spirit of reciprocity I'm going to try to answer it. You asked - why is C2 coming home and avoiding interaction with me - by plugging in headphones?
> 
> Let's revisit that little triage of: 1. seeking comfort, seeking 2. playfulness and 3. seeking companionship.
> 
> She's not seeking your companionship. In fact, she's kind of avoiding it.
> 
> So now let's acknowledge the elephant in the room. This is a sincere observation, not a personal attack. She's avoiding you because overall, she often finds your interactions to be: overall emotionally negative. I'm not saying there isn't any positive aspect to them. I'm saying that the overall, the net experience for her, is negative.
> 
> And the causes of that are not a lack of charm, wit and personality. I'm being totally serious here. If that were the case, she wouldn't have fallen in love with you, and married you.
> 
> The most likely causes are - that over time you've become:
> - Unhappy
> - Kind of negative in general
> - Quick to complain either verbally or non verbally about life in general.
> 
> This is descriptive, not critical. It sometimes happens in a marriage.
> 
> If I'm wrong - tell me. My goal isn't to be right, it's to be helpful. But if I'm wrong, you need to tell me/us why she is avoiding you?
> 
> Make sense?


----------



## cinnabomb

totally understand, but there is constructive criticism, and then there is "I'm gong to write something funny at OP's expense in order to try and get a couple likes because I'm fat and bitter and divorced and need the validation." Not going to tolerate that...hope you understand that. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> You have been given great advice actually, but I can understand why you can't see it as clearly as we do.
> 
> We read tons of threads and surprisingly, people react the same way over and over again.
> 
> The trick is for us to really see objectively what your interactions are like. Then maybe 2 or 3 different reasons or responses probably address the vast majority of cases.
> 
> You wouldn't believe it - frankly almost no one believes it.
> 
> Then your issues will run their course, and after a while we grab you by the hand, pull you over, and you join us in telling the next guy what you've learned. And it either worked or didn't for you - and think of all the emotion you have now - well you will have the same passion warning the next guy.
> 
> So keep that in mind and try not to be defensive around the TAM members with the harshest replies. I suspect you will be similar when you're on our side giving advice.


----------



## cinnabomb

interesting...thanks for the specific, this really helps to hear the role playing out loud. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> Just a thought... If you read His Needs Her Needs, if explains to women that most men want to come home to calm and be allowed to unwind before being bombarded with the litany of issues the typical W accrues before the H's arrival.
> 
> That need is a harsh one for a lot of women because they feel bottled up anyway and have a lot to express.
> 
> But the book points out this is a very high priority for many men.
> 
> So given the high powered role your W has, could it have nothing to do with you? Maybe she just needs to decompress from a stressful day.
> 
> I've asked my W to stop bombarding me. Instead I ask her to set up a time to discuss things - ahead of time - and get my concurrence. I need time to transition from decompressing to solving household issues.
> 
> So - when she gets home, tell her you'll like to (... Something specific...) at (...some specific time...). E.g. "Hi Hun welcome home - busy day here - I'm sure yours was busy too" (note: friendly hello - inform her about your day in a positive and brief way with no problems, and don't ask about hers but let her know you considered her day). Then "in an hour at 8:00 I'm going to watch dddddd on Netflix and I'd like to relax with you on the couch during the show." (Have media you can control the content and time of - like Netflix - and have a show you like that she doesn't hate picked out. INFORM her you're watching it - you are planning on relaxing and enjoying yourself. Inform her YOU want her by your side because you want her company. Don't ask what she wants.)
> 
> She will say:
> 
> - sure - WIN - move on
> 
> - something negative - "I hate that show" or "I'm too tired" or "we always watch what you want", etc. - WIN - you do a gentle smile and tip your head a bit and say "I'm sorry you're having a bad day" or "that's a shame" or "maybe you'll enjoy it if you watch it". Do not argue. Do not seek clarification. Do not try to absorb her negativity or worry about making her feel better. Remember - you're going to watch a show - that's the topic so stay on topic. You showed her you are considerate enough to be a little empathic but you are not her savior. Now say "I hope you feel better after to unwind and join me at 8:00 on the couch. I haven't watched ddddd before but I've heard good things." You are firmly focused on your plan to have a good time; you are clearly in a positive mood; you let her have her own emotions but you haven't mirrored her mood. Smile and walk away. It's important to have something specific you are doing now.
> 
> - she argues actively with you "why are you ffffff!" or "you haven't done xxxxxx and you're supposed to help with xxxxx!" - WIN - you react like scenario 2 above. "In sorry you're so upset" with a little concern on your face. Then "hope you are calm at 8:00 and can join me..." Gentle smile and walk away to do that pre planned task
> 
> These are all WIN situations because you were calm, happy, fun, a little empathetic, didn't react or overreact, didn't get your feelings hurt, and it is clear the only one bringing drama is her. She's not a dope and she'll be struck in the forehead with a brick when you walk away, knowing she was played and you had all the power in the exchange. And since it was all positive energy on your part, she can't really complain about the power switch.
> 
> The worse case scenario is she ignores you. She might. Then it is critically important to keep up the whole positive front. If you act like I described - even if she's ignoring you - she WILL notice.
> 
> If she ignores you from now on and you do this for a week, then you're in a position to suggest separation and divorce, saying "you don't seem to like spending time with me. That's kind of a requirement for a good wife. So I suspect you want out of this marriage".
> 
> But we'll be here to steer you if it comes to that


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunder, do you feel you obsess about those things to the degree that it is deeply consuming?


----------



## cinnabomb

Ok heres one more thought. Unless I am hearing things wrong, what MC wants from us sounds quite different than what you are recommending to me. MC wants us to focus on feelings, and be compassionate, sympathetic, understanding, blah blah. You know the routine.

But many of you are telling me, that as a "nice guy", I need to be more assertive, self-contained, strong, less needy, etc. One has me being even more emotional than I already am, talking about how "It made me feel hurt and sad when you did blah blah", and the other has me saying "Hey I'm havign a great time, even without you, and the hurtful thing you did doesnt even affect how much fun Im having!". 

Obviously Im exaggerating a bit, but the point I'm trying to make is....im confused. Who do I listen to? Do I do both? If so...how?? We arent going to stop MC anytime soon because from my wife's perspective, it helps a lot, and if we didn't do it I think she would give up on even trying to self-improve. I want to acknowledge that in some aspects my wife HAS made some great efforts (not always successful, but still a great effort) to make changes in her normal routine of "getting furious at everything that sounds like criticism", or "being too self-involved to provide any form of nurturing to my husband". baby steps, for sure. So we arent stopping that. I really like the MC in that he is very easy to talk to, really "gets it", and is very intelligent about human behavior, but I am still torn about how to behave. 

Let me pose a specific scenario. How does one not be a "nice guy", but STILL so what the MC is asking in a tough situation. Like the other day wife asked me to help with a project to sell and donate some of her clothes/shoes. So I was working on that for an hour or so, and needed her help to finish something so I can mail them out the nex day and said "honey can you help me for 1 minute just picking which jeans you want donated and put in that bag". It was literally a 60 second task, if that. She sort of snapped "I cant right now maybe ill look at it this weekend." OK. Im here, helping her, and she wants me to wait 5 days for her to do a 60 second task??? WTF. thats what im telling myself. My reaction was "honey im trying to help you and need to mail them tomorrow....its a 1 minute task." She finally complied, but in a rude and resentful way. 

Afterwards she thought nothing of it, but later that night in bed i brought it up and said "honey i want to let you know i felt hurt by your reaction to my simple request. I thought you spoke rudely and dismissively." (Im trying to use the language that MC taught us). At first, of course she raised her voice and began being defensive and hostile. I finally said "ok" and starting using my laptop and she didnt say anything for an hour. Eventually she said she was sorry. Please critique....what was right what was wrong?

One other scenario. I told her I would get us some food and cook it for dinner and spent a fair amount of time making some good grub, but when she got home she goes "oh that looks good, but im full. ill try it another day." i was instantly hurt and angry, because she has done this 100 times before. she knows im making us dinner, but still overeats lunch or has lunch at like 4pm. I asked her to even try a few bites and she refused so I got upset and closed myself down. I didnt even want to talk or be around her. I felt hurt. Please advise.....thanks


----------



## cinnabomb

lately, yes I do. I am assuming you are asking about obsessing over the state of our marriage?? I mean a big part of that is also how many people in this forum have told me to get divorced. its shocking really. i think about it constantly, everyday. its my biggest fear and worry in life...




Blossom Leigh said:


> chunder, do you feel you obsess about those things to the degree that it is deeply consuming?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> lately, yes I do. I am assuming you are asking about obsessing over the state of our marriage?? I mean a big part of that is also how many people in this forum have told me to get divorced. its shocking really. i think about it constantly, everyday. its my biggest fear and worry in life...


What has to happen to get you to stop obsessing about it. 

Can you find a way to chill through the storm?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

So my feedback to you comes from a guy who is not emotive like you. I'm not a feelings guy and my W prefers that, she's the emoter.

My read on the MC is to reflect on, understand, and communicate your emotions.

I think that's vastly different from feeling and expressing your emotions.

In the case of cooking all day, first I just wouldn't do it for her at all. problem solved. You said she's screwed up her appetite 100 times so frankly it's foolish to cook for her like that without specific commitments that she wants that and cares about it. The fact that YOU value a nice, home made meal doesn't mean SHE has to. She probably enjoys the food if she's hungry but otherwise it isn't important.

Why did you get angry? Were you angry? No you were probably hurt. Why? Because you did something you thought she SHOULD like and value but she didn't.

Then ask - why do I need her to value this? The answer is not obvious to you but it is to an outsider. You want something from her. Your motivations weren't pure or you wouldn't have been hurt.

So if YOU enjoy cooking and YOU enjoy a good meal and YOU want to share that with W - with no strings attached - then you would cook and eat it but if she didn't, you would feel "oh well what a shame her loss". That's a healthy relation and a good reason to cook.

You had a covert contract - I do this amazing thing for you, and you (love me more OR have sex with me OR appreciate and respect me OR ...).

I think that's what the MC wants you to work through. Also to understand and be honest. "You know, I really loved cooking dinner, and it turned out great! I really loved it. But to be honest, I was hoping you would like it too and maybe realize that I put a lot of effort into our relationship and am disappointed and a bit hurt that you didn't show me the respect to even try it or acknowledge my efforts"

I think that's the truth. However I also think it's unhealthy as I said above.


----------



## LongWalk

Hello CB,

I cannot write "Chunderbunder". It's not masculine or strong. So, practical advice step one. Refer to yourself in the third person as CB when you don't know how to cope.

"Okay, CB, wife is on the rag as usual. Not going to let it hurt us, CB, are we." 

Laugh inside. Smile.

Your going to be a winner not matter what, CB. One alternative is that you divorce. Heal. Change your nice guy attitude for a tougher suit of clothes. You don't become an A hole. You just have to respect yourself.

There are other women. You should become happy. Then mate. Don't make your happiness dependent on your mate.

The other alternative is that you man up and over time set your wife in her place. The is your partner, not your manager.

Stop looking for the crumbs of affection that occasionally fall off the cake of life that she eats but will not share. Stop having sex with her if it's complete duty sex.

Go to the gym and take up Brazilian jiu jitsu or CrossFit. Change your body so that you are desirable to women.

Stop taking care of the household and all the duties, as if you were a stay at home dad.

Go back out and get a job.

Most important – stop thinking about these issues in your relationship. See bold in quote below:





chunderbunder said:


> Ok heres one more thought. Unless I am hearing things wrong, what MC wants from us sounds quite different than what you are recommending to me.* MC wants us to focus on feelings*, and be compassionate, sympathetic, understanding, blah blah. You know the routine.


Why go to MC that tells you to feel. You have felt plenty for several years now and where has it gotten you?



> But many of you are telling me, that as a "nice guy", I need to be more assertive, self-contained, strong, less needy, etc. One has me being even more emotional than I already am, talking about how "It made me feel hurt and sad when you did blah blah", and the other has me saying "Hey I'm havign a great time, even without you, and the hurtful thing you did doesnt even affect how much fun Im having!".
> 
> Obviously Im exaggerating a bit, but the point I'm trying to make is....im confused. Who do I listen to? Do I do both? If so...how?? We arent going to stop MC anytime soon because from my wife's perspective, it helps a lot, and if we didn't do it I think she would give up on even trying to self-improve. I want to acknowledge that in some aspects my wife HAS made some great efforts (not always successful, but still a great effort) to make changes in her normal routine of "getting furious at everything that sounds like criticism", or "being too self-involved to provide any form of nurturing to my husband". baby steps, for sure. So we arent stopping that. I really like the MC in that he is very easy to talk to, really "gets it", and is very intelligent about human behavior, but I am still torn about how to behave.


Your wife will never be attracted to you because MC nods her head and gets.



> Let me pose a specific scenario. How does one not be a "nice guy", but STILL so what the MC is asking in a tough situation. Like the other day wife asked me to help with a project to sell and donate some of her clothes/shoes. So I was working on that for an hour or so, and needed her help to finish something so I can mail them out the nex day and said "honey can you help me for 1 minute just picking which jeans you want donated and put in that bag". It was literally a 60 second task, if that. She sort of snapped "I cant right now maybe ill look at it this weekend." OK. Im here, helping her, and she wants me to wait 5 days for her to do a 60 second task??? WTF. thats what im telling myself. My reaction was "honey im trying to help you and need to mail them tomorrow....its a 1 minute task." She finally complied, but in a rude and resentful way.


Why did you agree to get involved in such feminine beta project. Your wife is psychologically castrating you. What woman is going to be attracted to a man who spends his time a charity project, cleaning her wardrobe in the name of sustainability. 



> Afterwards she thought nothing of it, but later that night in bed i brought it up and said "honey i want to let you know i felt hurt by your reaction to my simple request. I thought you spoke rudely and dismissively." (Im trying to use the language that MC taught us). At first, of course she raised her voice and began being defensive and hostile. I finally said "ok" and starting using my laptop and she didnt say anything for an hour. Eventually she said she was sorry. Please critique....what was right what was wrong?


Why on earth would you demean yourself by getting involved in a discussion about the jeans she can no longer fit into.



> One other scenario. I told her I would get us some food and cook it for dinner and spent a fair amount of time making some good grub, but when she got home she goes "oh that looks good, but im full. ill try it another day." i was instantly hurt and angry, because she has done this 100 times before. she knows im making us dinner, but still overeats lunch or has lunch at like 4pm. I asked her to even try a few bites and she refused so I got upset and closed myself down. I didnt even want to talk or be around her. I felt hurt. Please advise.....thanks


You sound so domestic. Uggh. 

Go to the f"cking gym and learn to punch people!

Read neuklas's thread. Bagdon. Road Scholar.

Come on CB.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> Ok heres one more thought. Unless I am hearing things wrong, what MC wants from us sounds quite different than what you are recommending to me. MC wants us to focus on feelings, and be compassionate, sympathetic, understanding, blah blah. You know the routine.
> 
> But many of you are telling me, that as a "nice guy", I need to be more assertive, self-contained, strong, less needy, etc. One has me being even more emotional than I already am, talking about how "It made me feel hurt and sad when you did blah blah", and the other has me saying "Hey I'm havign a great time, even without you, and the hurtful thing you did doesnt even affect how much fun Im having!".


That's because you haven't TOLD the MC all the ways in which she blatantly skewers you, is willing to decimate you with no thought, and frankly couldn't care less if you unhappy except as to how it hurts her.

Haven't I told you to print out this thread and give it to the MC? A few times? THAT would help her understand what's really going on, and it would help her urge your WIFE to start changing her tune. But you won't tell the truth there, because your wife is sitting there.


----------



## MEM2020

Overall I like this a lot. 

Except for the end. Pushing food is a bad idea. Pushing food on someone who is saying they are not hungry - doubly so. 

With a non hungry person who is already gaining weight.....

Stop it. 

There's a reason that the cartoon named: Peanuts 
Got so much mileage out of the scene where Lucy would promise to hold the football for Charlie Brown (another CB) to kick it. 

So we have a couple - situations reflecting that dynamic. And I'll tell you - we have a lot of fun with them. I already KNOW how it's gonna turn out. I know M2 is gonna pull the football out before I go to kick it. And therefore it's a game. And we BOTH have a good laugh. 

If I do X, expecting Y a hundred times. And very, very often I don't actually get Y, I stop expecting it. 








TheTruthHurts said:


> So my feedback to you comes from a guy who is not emotive like you. I'm not a feelings guy and my W prefers that, she's the emoter.
> 
> My read on the MC is to reflect on, understand, and communicate your emotions.
> 
> I think that's vastly different from feeling and expressing your emotions.
> 
> In the case of cooking all day, first I just wouldn't do it for her at all. problem solved. You said she's screwed up her appetite 100 times so frankly it's foolish to cook for her like that without specific commitments that she wants that and cares about it. The fact that YOU value a nice, home made meal doesn't mean SHE has to. She probably enjoys the food if she's hungry but otherwise it isn't important.
> 
> Why did you get angry? Were you angry? No you were probably hurt. Why? Because you did something you thought she SHOULD like and value but she didn't.
> 
> Then ask - why do I need her to value this? The answer is not obvious to you but it is to an outsider. You want something from her. Your motivations weren't pure or you wouldn't have been hurt.
> 
> So if YOU enjoy cooking and YOU enjoy a good meal and YOU want to share that with W - with no strings attached - then you would cook and eat it but if she didn't, you would feel "oh well what a shame her loss". That's a healthy relation and a good reason to cook.
> 
> You had a covert contract - I do this amazing thing for you, and you (love me more OR have sex with me OR appreciate and respect me OR ...).
> 
> I think that's what the MC wants you to work through. Also to understand and be honest. "You know, I really loved cooking dinner, and it turned out great! I really loved it. But to be honest, I was hoping you would like it too and maybe realize that I put a lot of effort into our relationship and am disappointed and a bit hurt that you didn't show me the respect to even try it or acknowledge my efforts"
> 
> I think that's the truth. However I also think it's unhealthy as I said above.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> Like the other day wife asked me to help with a project to sell and donate some of her clothes/shoes. So I was working on that for an hour or so, and needed her help to finish something so I can mail them out the nex day and said "honey can you help me for 1 minute just picking which jeans you want donated and put in that bag". It was literally a 60 second task, if that. She sort of snapped "I cant right now maybe ill look at it this weekend." OK. Im here, helping her, and she wants me to wait 5 days for her to do a 60 second task??? WTF. thats what im telling myself. My reaction was "honey im trying to help you and need to mail them tomorrow....its a 1 minute task." She finally complied, but in a rude and resentful way.


I deal with this all.the.time. My H's time is 'too valuable' to deal with me, even when I'm helping HIM. So here's what my IC told me to do. Agree to help him but as soon as he gets negative, to wash my hands of him and tell him WHY. She told me to do that. Start every day enthusiastic to be on his side, but as soon as he gives me attitude - walk away. Leave HIM to deal with whatever it was he expected me to do for him. 

That's how you teach a person to respect you. By respecting yourself first.

As soon as she gave you attitude, you should have said 'Wow. I guess you don't really need my help then' and walked away to another room. Would the stuff get done? Obviously not. That's called a consequence. HER consequence. And I promise you, she'll remember WHY it didn't get done. And maybe, just maybe, she would adjust her treatment of you the next time.



> Afterwards she thought nothing of it, but later that night in bed i brought it up and said "honey i want to let you know i felt hurt by your reaction to my simple request. I thought you spoke rudely and dismissively.


And so you understand - this? ABSOLUTELY the WORST way you could have handled it. It makes you look weak, sad, whiny, beta, Nice Guy, and totally unworthy of respect. I bet you can find an example in NMMNG of why you DON'T go to her in bed, at night, and say 'you made me feel bad.'


----------



## MEM2020

Turnera,

I vehemently disagree with this strategy. CB has a lot of big issues that he needs to fix. BIG issues. 

Simple example. Giving clothing for charity - isn't urgent. It's important - but not urgent. 

Having a blowout over it - is just one more unnecessary negative interaction. 

When she said she was too busy, I'd shrug and say - when you pick that stuff out, I'll pack it up and send it. 

Or wait until she asks you to do something - and then playfully - soon as you pick out the jeans for charity I'll do that for you. 

And he says a lot of toxic stuff. For instance: He routinely questions the viability of the marriage - but then loudly insists he would never divorce his wife. 

I'm not suggesting she's easy. She isn't. I'm suggesting that trying to apply pressure on her, to demand improvement is actually counterproductive when the marriage is so bad that she's actively avoiding him. 

1. He has no real leverage - because he's emotionally draining her
2. He's not willing to leave 

AFTER he fixes himself - which I'd guess is going to take a good year - only then will he be in a position to have a very direct conversation about her behavior. 




turnera said:


> That's because you haven't TOLD the MC all the ways in which she blatantly skewers you, is willing to decimate you with no thought, and frankly couldn't care less if you unhappy except as to how it hurts her.
> 
> Haven't I told you to print out this thread and give it to the MC? A few times? THAT would help her understand what's really going on, and it would help her urge your WIFE to start changing her tune. But you won't tell the truth there, because your wife is sitting there.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Turnera,
> 
> I vehemently disagree with this strategy. CB has a lot of big issues that he needs to fix. BIG issues.
> 
> Simple example. Giving clothing for charity - isn't urgent. It's important - but not urgent.
> 
> Having a blowout over it - is just one more unnecessary negative interaction.
> 
> When she said she was too busy, I'd shrug and say - when you pick that stuff out, I'll pack it up and send it.
> 
> Or wait until she asks you to do something - and then playfully - soon as you pick out the jeans for charity I'll do that for you.
> 
> And he says a lot of toxic stuff. For instance: He routinely questions the viability of the marriage - but then loudly insists he would never divorce his wife.
> 
> I'm not suggesting she's easy. She isn't. I'm suggesting that trying to apply pressure on her, to demand improvement is actually counterproductive when the marriage is so bad that she's actively avoiding him.
> 
> 1. He has no real leverage - because he's emotionally draining her
> 2. He's not willing to leave
> 
> AFTER he fixes himself - which I'd guess is going to take a good year - only then will he be in a position to have a very direct conversation about her behavior.


I am hoping that as he fixes himself, her behavior will fix itself.


----------



## cinnabomb

MC knows everything. ive had private sessions with him and he knows everything. 



turnera said:


> That's because you haven't TOLD the MC all the ways in which she blatantly skewers you, is willing to decimate you with no thought, and frankly couldn't care less if you unhappy except as to how it hurts her.
> 
> Haven't I told you to print out this thread and give it to the MC? A few times? THAT would help her understand what's really going on, and it would help her urge your WIFE to start changing her tune. But you won't tell the truth there, because your wife is sitting there.


----------



## turnera

Then I would give the MC a copy of NMMNG and ask him to read it. AND print out the thread and hand it to him.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Overall I like this a lot.
> 
> Except for the end. Pushing food is a bad idea. Pushing food on someone who is saying they are not hungry - doubly so.
> 
> With a non hungry person who is already gaining weight.....
> 
> Stop it.
> 
> There's a reason that the cartoon named: Peanuts
> Got so much mileage out of the scene where Lucy would promise to hold the football for Charlie Brown (another CB) to kick it.
> 
> So we have a couple - situations reflecting that dynamic. And I'll tell you - we have a lot of fun with them. I already KNOW how it's gonna turn out. I know M2 is gonna pull the football out before I go to kick it. And therefore it's a game. And we BOTH have a good laugh.
> 
> If I do X, expecting Y a hundred times. And very, very often I don't actually get Y, I stop expecting it.


Mem, in fairness, how does that game look when X is a need, and your partner knows it, and still pulls the ball?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

Far,
Teasing or leading someone on about a genuine need they have, is cruel, and needs to be directly addressed. The stuff I'm talking about is M2 tells me she wants me to pick a paint color or something like that. It's never gonna happen. Ever. 

I might play along for laughs. At the end, she's gonna pick the color. 

But - my need can't be to feed you. My need can be taking care of you - but that has to be done in a manner that you're agreeable with. 

So this whole cooking thing. Why's she avoiding it? 

Because if she's making a real effort to avoid what he's cooking, there's a reason. She either thinks it's a covert contract. And he expects some reciprocity. Or she doesn't like what he's cooking. 

Or this whole weight loss theme has become apparent to her, and she's passive aggressively refusing to cooperate. 

No way to know because communication is totally broken down. 




farsidejunky said:


> Mem, in fairness, how does that game look when X is a need, and your partner knows it, and still pulls the ball?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> totally understand, but there is constructive criticism, and then there is "I'm gong to write something funny at OP's expense in order to try and get a couple likes because I'm fat and bitter and divorced and need the validation." Not going to tolerate that...hope you understand that.


Oh dear! Someone sounds bitter! FYI, I'm not fat, bitter or divorced and I get lots of non-web-based validation everyday. I haven't begun to insult you, you would know if I did. :biggrinangelA:


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> Let me pose a specific scenario. How does one not be a "nice guy", but STILL so what the MC is asking in a tough situation. Like the other day wife asked me to help with a project to sell and donate some of her clothes/shoes. So I was working on that for an hour or so, and needed her help to finish something so I can mail them out the nex day and said "honey can you help me for 1 minute just picking which jeans you want donated and put in that bag". It was literally a 60 second task, if that. She sort of snapped "I cant right now maybe ill look at it this weekend." OK. Im here, helping her, and she wants me to wait 5 days for her to do a 60 second task??? WTF. thats what im telling myself. My reaction was "honey im trying to help you and need to mail them tomorrow....its a 1 minute task." She finally complied, but in a rude and resentful way.


You don't do her jobs for her, did you take over the task? Why? You can help her but if she stops, you stop too. 



chunderbunder said:


> Afterwards she thought nothing of it, but later that night in bed i brought it up and said "honey i want to let you know i felt hurt by your reaction to my simple request. I thought you spoke rudely and dismissively."


Weak.



chunderbunder said:


> One other scenario. I told her I would get us some food and cook it for dinner and spent a fair amount of time making some good grub, but when she got home she goes "oh that looks good, but im full. ill try it another day." i was instantly hurt and angry, because she has done this 100 times before. she knows im making us dinner, but still overeats lunch or has lunch at like 4pm. I asked her to even try a few bites and she refused so I got upset and closed myself down. I didnt even want to talk or be around her. I felt hurt. Please advise.....thanks


She wasn't hungry, let it go. Might have been insensitive but if you close down, you are choosing to respond negatively to something that she may not have intended to hurt you. Say ok, I'll put a plate in the fridge for you and move on.


----------



## Lilac23

chunderbunder said:


> 4. wife brings home aggression and a sudden sensitivity to many things, treats husband disrespectfully and neglectfully.


It appears to be all her fault.



chunderbunder said:


> 5. *husband tries and tries to make sense of it and fix it, but no to avail. husband begins shutting down, emotionally, physically, etc, to protect himself from further pain. *


This is classic victim speak, perhaps you don't understand it yourself and cannot see it but I have worked professionally with many people who cannot take responsibility for their actions (convicts, child abusers, wife beaters, survivors of abuse) and at some point you have to change from victim to survivor. It's not because you are a man that people are telling you to grow a spine, it's what we would tell anyone who was allowing them-self to be verbally or emotionally abused. You are allowing it, do you understand that? You are not a victim, you have choice. 




chunderbunder said:


> Thats where we are at. yes, you are right. I can be a downer around the home at times. _I take on a ton of our responsibilities and as a result, I can often complain about all the $hit i deal with. its probably not fun to be around. im certainly struggling with it and trying to learn about how to deal with it._


So give her back some of the responsibility, sometimes we take on things we don't want to and no one asked us to, then expect to feel like a martyr when they don't fall to their knees and begin singing our praises. Why? Maybe they never wanted us to take on the job in the first place! 



chunderbunder said:


> I even started meditation this week. Im not good at faking it. this is the hard part. If I am upset at her, for being rude, or disrespectful, or for gaining weight recently, or lack of sex...it consumes me. How do I put those aside and try to be "joyful" or "positive" around her??? This is what I am struggling with


You don't have to be joyful, you have to be unemotional, nonreactive, to assert the boundaries by which you expect to be treated and to keep those boundaries. You teach people how to treat and what you will accept, you simply need to retrain her but you do this by changing yourself.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

MEM11363 said:


> 1. He has no real leverage - because he's emotionally draining her
> *2. He's not willing to leave
> *
> AFTER he fixes himself - which I'd guess is going to take a good year - only then will he be in a position to have a very direct conversation about her behavior.


Until he is ready to leave, any effective advice given to CB will be received defensively by him. And objected to.

He hasn't suffered enough to change. He's suffering, but not quite enough. He's at the stage where he's looking for that magic wand to change his wife's behavior.

Her behavior_ might_ change when she realizes he's going to leave. That's if she gives a damn.

She may not.

Establish boundaries regarding what types of behavior you are not OK with. When she displays those behaviors, tell her "I'm not OK with that. I will not take your abuse. If it happens again, I'm ending this relationship."

And mean it.

(I just had that exact conversation with my SO of 2.5 years, who verbally snapped at me the other night. It was borderline abusive. I gave her the I'm not OK with it line, told her if it happened again our relationship was over. I was calm and dispassionate. And deadly serious. She apologized. That was the first, and last, time it will happen.

Do you think she respects me more, or less, now?)


----------



## LongWalk

CB,

You cannot negotiate your way to attraction via the mediation of MC. That is a complete misunderstanding of communication. 

You want your wife to love you for acting like a caring sensitive guy. She is not attracted. 

Go wall climbing. Challenge yourself mentally and physically so that you know you are man.


----------



## cinnabomb

Lilac, i politely asked you to stop posting in my thread. Now you''re still creeping around here. please provide your sage advice elsewhere. 



Lilac23 said:


> Oh dear! Someone sounds bitter! FYI, I'm not fat, bitter or divorced and I get lots of non-web-based validation everyday. I haven't begun to insult you, you would know if I did. :biggrinangelA:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunder.... quick questions. 

If you were to stop doing all you are doing for your wife, do you fear she would stop loving you?

Do you view yourself as having value to a degree that you know she would love you whether you did anything for her or not?


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> Until he is ready to leave, any effective advice given to CB will be received defensively by him. And objected to.
> 
> *He hasn't suffered enough to change. He's suffering, but not quite enough. He's at the stage where he's looking for that magic wand to change his wife's behavior.*
> 
> Her behavior_ might_ change when she realizes he's going to leave. That's if she gives a damn.
> 
> She may not.
> 
> Establish boundaries regarding what types of behavior you are not OK with. When she displays those behaviors, tell her "I'm not OK with that. I will not take your abuse. If it happens again, I'm ending this relationship."
> 
> And mean it.
> 
> (I just had that exact conversation with my SO of 2.5 years, who verbally snapped at me the other night. It was borderline abusive. I gave her the I'm not OK with it line, told her if it happened again our relationship was over. I was calm and dispassionate. And deadly serious. She apologized. That was the first, and last, time it will happen.
> 
> Do you think she respects me more, or less, now?)


Just had a Gridcom flashback.....


----------



## cinnabomb

WTF, im confused. this is EXACTLY what my MC told me to do. This is my point....im getting totally different info from MC and from you guys. If you think this was wrong, then what was the RIGHT way to tell wife that what she did was not acceptable?

Also, MC has NMMNG and has already told me about it. 




turnera said:


> I deal with this all.the.time. My H's time is 'too valuable' to deal with me, even when I'm helping HIM. So here's what my IC told me to do. Agree to help him but as soon as he gets negative, to wash my hands of him and tell him WHY. She told me to do that. Start every day enthusiastic to be on his side, but as soon as he gives me attitude - walk away. Leave HIM to deal with whatever it was he expected me to do for him.
> 
> That's how you teach a person to respect you. By respecting yourself first.
> 
> As soon as she gave you attitude, you should have said 'Wow. I guess you don't really need my help then' and walked away to another room. Would the stuff get done? Obviously not. That's called a consequence. HER consequence. And I promise you, she'll remember WHY it didn't get done. And maybe, just maybe, she would adjust her treatment of you the next time.
> 
> And so you understand - this? ABSOLUTELY the WORST way you could have handled it. It makes you look weak, sad, whiny, beta, Nice Guy, and totally unworthy of respect. I bet you can find an example in NMMNG of why you DON'T go to her in bed, at night, and say 'you made me feel bad.'


----------



## turnera

Waiting until you are lying in bed, hours after the event occurred, appears weak. You could have called her out on it right there and said "I don't deserve this" and walked away. Not "YOU make me feel bad," but "I don't deserve bad treatment."

And NOT finished doing HER work for her after she disrespects you.

Yes, you inform her how her actions are hurting you. But it's all in the WAY you do it.


----------



## cinnabomb

Im not really sure. most of the stuff I do for us, I do because I am just more organized than her and it they were left to her they would get done and things would turn really messy really fast. 

But if you mean things for her, like making her dinner, etc....I dont know. I was raised to be loving and nurturing to some extent and cooking is one way I like to share my affection for someone. Im good at it, so its easy for me. And yes she loves my cooking and no I wasnt forcing food on her the other day....we already talked earlier in the day that I was picking up stuff for dinner and she agreed but then ate late lunch anyways and wasnt hungry. this has happened a lot. I felt it was inconsiderate, considering she knew I was making us dinner, especially foods she liked. 

Anyways, to answer you, I dont think she would stop loving me if I didnt cook or whatever. I dont do it for that. I enjoy cooking. I value having a clean organized home more than her, so I take care of it. If I didnt do those things, they simply wouldnt get done and we would be living in a pig stye. 




Blossom Leigh said:


> chunder.... quick questions.
> 
> If you were to stop doing all you are doing for your wife, do you fear she would stop loving you?
> 
> Do you view yourself as having value to a degree that you know she would love you whether you did anything for her or not?


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> Anyways, to answer you, I dont think she would stop loving me if I didnt cook or whatever. I dont do it for that. I enjoy cooking. I value having a clean organized home more than her, so I take care of it. If I didnt do those things, they simply wouldnt get done and we would be living in a pig stye.


But you have turned it into a Covert Contract (in the book). You say you do them because you want to, but then you VERY carefully watch her reactions to see if she will appreciate you for it or if she will disrespect you. 

The detachment is so that you stop doing that, stop hurting yourself by putting YOUR happiness in the hands of another person. That's madness - as you are experiencing - to let someone else determine if you feel good or not. Because you can't control them.

Do you see the difference?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> Im not really sure. most of the stuff I do for us, I do because I am just more organized than her and it they were left to her they would get done and things would turn really messy really fast.
> 
> But if you mean things for her, like making her dinner, etc....I dont know. I was raised to be loving and nurturing to some extent and cooking is one way I like to share my affection for someone. Im good at it, so its easy for me. And yes she loves my cooking and no I wasnt forcing food on her the other day....we already talked earlier in the day that I was picking up stuff for dinner and she agreed but then ate late lunch anyways and wasnt hungry. this has happened a lot. I felt it was inconsiderate, considering she knew I was making us dinner, especially foods she liked.
> 
> Anyways, to answer you, I dont think she would stop loving me if I didnt cook or whatever. I dont do it for that. I enjoy cooking. I value having a clean organized home more than her, so I take care of it. If I didnt do those things, they simply wouldnt get done and we would be living in a pig stye.


Ok, just checkin' 

Just wanted to make sure you aren't putting her on an "emotional hook." Those tend to cause people to shut down.


----------



## MEM2020

CB,
A gentle reminder. 

'This will be the hardest thing you've ever done'

Now we need to revisit the theme below. The bolded part. And I suggest you first go for a long run. A long hard run. And then read it again.

-------
One other scenario. I told her I would get us some food and cook it for dinner and spent a fair amount of time making some good grub, but when she got home she goes "oh that looks good, but im full. ill try it another day." *i was instantly hurt and angry, because she has done this 100 times before.* she knows im making us dinner, but still overeats lunch or has lunch at like 4pm. I asked her to even try a few bites and she refused so I got upset and closed myself down. I didnt even want to talk or be around her. I felt hurt. Please advise.....thanks
-------



turnera said:


> But you have turned it into a Covert Contract (in the book). You say you do them because you want to, but then you VERY carefully watch her reactions to see if she will appreciate you for it or if she will disrespect you.
> 
> The detachment is so that you stop doing that, stop hurting yourself by putting YOUR happiness in the hands of another person. That's madness - as you are experiencing - to let someone else determine if you feel good or not. Because you can't control them.
> 
> Do you see the difference?


----------



## cinnabomb

please elaborate...



MEM11363 said:


> CB,
> A gentle reminder.
> 
> 'This will be the hardest thing you've ever done'
> 
> Now we need to revisit the theme below. The bolded part. And I suggest you first go for a long run. A long hard run. And then read it again.
> 
> -------
> One other scenario. I told her I would get us some food and cook it for dinner and spent a fair amount of time making some good grub, but when she got home she goes "oh that looks good, but im full. ill try it another day." *i was instantly hurt and angry, because she has done this 100 times before.* she knows im making us dinner, but still overeats lunch or has lunch at like 4pm. I asked her to even try a few bites and she refused so I got upset and closed myself down. I didnt even want to talk or be around her. I felt hurt. Please advise.....thanks
> -------


----------



## cinnabomb

what is an emotional hook? do you mean that on some level I am expecting something in return? Is it wrong to want to feel appreciated in a relationship for all that you do?? how would a stay at home mother feel if she handled two babies all day but her husband never told her she was doing great and how much she is appreciated? im confused...




Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok, just checkin'
> 
> Just wanted to make sure you aren't putting her on an "emotional hook." Those tend to cause people to shut down.


----------



## jld

chunderbunder said:


> what is an emotional hook? do you mean that on some level I am expecting something in return? Is it wrong to want to feel appreciated in a relationship for all that you do?? how would a stay at home mother feel if she handled two babies all day but her husband never told her she was doing great and how much she is appreciated? im confused...


The more you can do the right thing, without needing something in return, the more likely you are to get something in return.

Emotional independence is attractive.


----------



## bfree

CB, you've been getting great responses from many different points of view. I'd just like to make one quick point if it hasn't already been made. Your story about how you cooked something for your wife and how you were hurt when she'd already eaten is a classic covert contract situation. You made her food. You didn't ask her. She didn't ask you. But you felt she should appreciate it anyway. That's textbook covert contract behavior directly from the book No More Mr Nice Guy. You said earlier how you wanted specifics. Well there you go. I suggest you take a look again and do some of the exercises and suggestions in the book. It would make your life and your wife's life a lot more stable.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> what is an emotional hook? do you mean that on some level I am expecting something in return? Is it wrong to want to feel appreciated in a relationship for all that you do?? how would a stay at home mother feel if she handled two babies all day but her husband never told her she was doing great and how much she is appreciated? im confused...


Ok, let me see if I can paint the picture of an emotional hook clearly...

Scenario #1: You LOVE to cook. It makes you happy. You love sharing you talents with those you love. On a Thursday night you cook a fantastic meal, you call your wife to let her know she has fantastic food waiting for this evening. She shares she cannot make it. You say, no worries Babe, I'll package it for you for latter, be safe, I love you. You hang up still feeling like a million bucks because you swam in your own awesome sauce and no one can take that from you.


Scenario#2 You LOVE to cook. It makes you happy. You love sharing you talents with those you love. On a Thursday night you cook a fantastic meal, you call your wife to let her know she has fantastic food waiting for this evening. She shares she cannot make it. But this time you think "I went to all this trouble for you and you can't eat with me?" You are short on the phone, brood in resentment. She knows she upset you by your reaction, so next time she tells you she *might* make it. She sees you are sensitive about it but doesnt know how to make you not attach you efforts to her schedule, so she starts walking on eggshells. She's been put on an emotional hook and doesn't know how to get herself off of it, so she *hides* in TV shows when she gets home so she doesnt upset you.



See the difference?

If it resonates, great!! If it doesn't... No worries


----------



## cinnabomb

I get what you are saying, but to clarify, actually we DID talk about it earlier that day. we were discussing dinner, I said I am going to the grocery anyways I can pickup a fish and veg, etc for dinner tonight and she said ok sounds goods. i didnt surprise her out of the blue about it. nevertheless, this incident was probably just a typical miscommunication, but even still it feels inconsiderate to me. 



bfree said:


> CB, you've been getting great responses from many different points of view. I'd just like to make one quick point if it hasn't already been made. Your story about how you cooked something for your wife and how you were hurt when she'd already eaten is a classic covert contract situation. You made her food. You didn't ask her. She didn't ask you. But you felt she should appreciate it anyway. That's textbook covert contract behavior directly from the book No More Mr Nice Guy. You said earlier how you wanted specifics. Well there you go. I suggest you take a look again and do some of the exercises and suggestions in the book. It would make your life and your wife's life a lot more stable.


----------



## cinnabomb

100% get it. totally get it and will fully admit I have been guilty of this in the past. Help me with this though....a LOT of times I do these nice things, gestures, whatever, and dont mention it in any way or wait for any appreciation, etc, but I noticed that she doesnt seem aware at all of them. Like if I dont mention "oh by the way I cleaned the whole closet today" or whatever she never notices or appreciates anything. I hate having to state stuff like that, but it sucks not being noticed or appreciated also. Is she just conditioned so that she takes it all for granted now???




Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok, let me see if I can paint the picture of an emotional hook clearly...
> 
> Scenario #1: You LOVE to cook. It makes you happy. You love sharing you talents with those you love. On a Thursday night you cook a fantastic meal, you call your wife to let her know she has fantastic food waiting for this evening. She shares she cannot make it. You say, no worries Babe, I'll package it for you for latter, be safe, I love you. You hang up still feeling like a million bucks because you swam in your own awesome sauce and no one can take that from you.
> 
> 
> Scenario#2 You LOVE to cook. It makes you happy. You love sharing you talents with those you love. On a Thursday night you cook a fantastic meal, you call your wife to let her know she has fantastic food waiting for this evening. She shares she cannot make it. But this time you think "I went to all this trouble for you and you can't eat with me?" You are short on the phone, brood in resentment. She knows she upset you by your reaction, so next time she tells you she *might* make it. She sees you are sensitive about it but doesnt know how to make you not attach you efforts to her schedule, so she starts walking on eggshells. She's been put on an emotional hook and doesn't know how to get herself off of it, so she *hides* in TV shows when she gets home so she doesnt upset you.
> 
> 
> 
> See the difference?
> 
> If it resonates, great!! If it doesn't... No worries


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> 100% get it. totally get it and will fully admit I have been guilty of this in the past. Help me with this though....a LOT of times I do these nice things, gestures, whatever, and dont mention it in any way or wait for any appreciation, etc, but I noticed that she doesnt seem aware at all of them. Like if I dont mention "oh by the way I cleaned the whole closet today" or whatever she never notices or appreciates anything. I hate having to state stuff like that, but it sucks not being noticed or appreciated also. Is she just conditioned so that she takes it all for granted now???


Sometimes life presents us with situations that are addressed well with the right or best question. So instead of asking Why doesn't she notice? 

If it were me, I would begin asking myself Why is it so important to me that she notices? Why do I experience pain when she doesn't? Is it a reasonable reason or unreasonable and why?

This is also a good area to get someone else local to give you feedback on this personal accountability. Check yourself with someone who is versed in this. Either someone who has been through it or someone who is trained especially in codependency and emotional traumas.

I will tell you I hear the pulse of unresolved trauma in you and I've had a HARD time trying to figure out how to tap it. This one has not been a clear path, but I hope enough resonates to get you on a healing path. Because I know the path you've been on HURTS. It's time to figure out how to stop that pain and I don't think all of that answer comes from your wife. And I know I for one would love to see you not hurting like this anymore.


----------



## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sometimes life presents us with situations that are addressed well with the right or best question. So instead of asking Why doesn't she notice?
> 
> If it were me, I would begin asking myself Why is it so important to me that she notices? Why do I experience pain when she doesn't? Is it a reasonable reason or unreasonable and why?
> 
> This is also a good area to get someone else local to give you feedback on this personal accountability. Check yourself with someone who is versed in this. Either someone who has been through it or someone who is trained especially in codependency and emotional traumas.
> 
> I will tell you I hear the pulse of unresolved trauma in you and I've had a HARD time trying to figure out how to tap it. This one has not been a clear path, but I hope enough resonates to get you on a healing path. Because I know the path you've been on HURTS. It's time to figure out how to stop that pain and I don't think all of that answer comes from your wife. And I know I for one would love to see you not hurting like this anymore.


Nailed it! Do you do these things because you want to or to earn her appreciation? If you do them because you want to then her appreciation isn't necessary. If you do these things to make her notice you then why do you crave her acceptance/validation.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

CB you sound exactly like my wife. She does everything for everyone - completely dotes on me and my 5 kids and works full time.

I don't value much of it and I've told her that. I would prefer to live in a messy relaxed house where I can sit and talk to my wife sometimes.

She likes doing what she does and is codependent like you. But she's working on it. And I'm working on being honest and saying "I don't value that".

So the answer is if you do it it HAS to be fir YOU only. And if she doesn't appreciate it then you should be completely fine with that.


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## Chaparral

What have you done to see what may be going on with her and the guys she works with and shares everything with? To me there is a gaping hole in this story.


----------



## farsidejunky

chunderbunder said:


> 100% get it. totally get it and will fully admit I have been guilty of this in the past. Help me with this though....a LOT of times I do these nice things, gestures, whatever, and dont mention it in any way or wait for any appreciation, etc, but I noticed that she doesnt seem aware at all of them. Like if I dont mention "oh by the way I cleaned the whole closet today" or whatever she never notices or appreciates anything. I hate having to state stuff like that, but it sucks not being noticed or appreciated also. Is she just conditioned so that she takes it all for granted now???


CB:

The hardest thing to remember about needs is loving somebody the way they want to be loved, not how you want to be loved.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> I get what you are saying, but to clarify, actually we DID talk about it earlier that day. we were discussing dinner, I said I am going to the grocery anyways I can pickup a fish and veg, etc for dinner tonight and she said ok sounds goods. i didnt surprise her out of the blue about it. nevertheless, this incident was *probably just a typical miscommunication*, but even still it feels inconsiderate to me.


But you just said she's done it a 100 times. Right? So you KNOW she's very likely to bail on you. 

So...knowing she'll likely bail on you, you WAIT for her to get home to see if she DOES. In other words, you are setting her up to disappoint you so that you can blame your unhappiness on her. That way, it's all her fault and you don't have to change.

Right out of the book, btw.

Anyway, you've already been given instructions on what to do - cook and not CARE if she eats it or not. And reread what Blossom said in Scenario #2 - she possibly has learned to walk on eggshells around you, because you aren't discussing this in a forthright way.


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## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> 100% get it. totally get it and will fully admit I have been guilty of this in the past. Help me with this though....a LOT of times I do these nice things, gestures, whatever, and dont mention it in any way or wait for any appreciation, etc, but I noticed that she doesnt seem aware at all of them. Like if I dont mention "oh by the way I cleaned the whole closet today" or whatever she never notices or appreciates anything. I hate having to state stuff like that, but it sucks not being noticed or appreciated also. Is she just conditioned so that she takes it all for granted now???


More likely, she has different Love Languages. You most likely are an Acts of Service person - you feel love when someone does things for you, to show you they care. 

So that's what YOU do to show love for the other person. But she isn't wired like you, so an act of service doesn't mean anything to her. 

My H is like you. He'll go out of his way to cook this elaborate dinner (that I usually have to clean up) that I never asked for. I'd just as soon eat some rice and gravy. And if I don't say something about it after I eat it he'll say 'well? was it good? Wasn't it good?'

Do you know how infuriating that is? To be told I should be grateful to him for something I never asked for in the first place?

Another example:
For years, he would buy me clothes and perfume and jewelry for gifts. Because that's what HE likes. HE wanted nice clothes and jewelry and cologne. So I'd get tons of stuff I didn't want. I wanted things to make my house nicer. So I'd buy HIM tools and stuff to fix things. Which he'd never use.

Until I learned about Love Languages and figured out what his were, and started giving him what he wanted. He became much happier and much more likely to reciprocate or try to make me happy. The last few years, he's actually bought me a weedeater, and a barbecue pit, things I actually care about.

What are your wife's Love Languages?
The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts by Gary Chapman | 9780802412706 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


----------



## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> But you just said she's done it a 100 times. Right? So you KNOW she's very likely to bail on you.
> 
> So...knowing she'll likely bail on you, you WAIT for her to get home to see if she DOES. In other words, you are setting her up to disappoint you so that you can blame your unhappiness on her. That way, it's all her fault and you don't have to change.
> 
> Right out of the book, btw.
> 
> Anyway, you've already been given instructions on what to do - cook and not CARE if she eats it or not. And reread what Blossom said in Scenario #2 - she possibly has learned to walk on eggshells around you, because you aren't discussing this in a forthright way.


Nailed it. CB, soak this in.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

Turnera,

Yes. Exactly. I suggested he go for a run and revisit this because, it's not really a cognitive issue. CB is certainly a bright fellow. 

It's an orientation. He feels highly responsible for her, and therefore believes she ought be equally responsible for him. 

But she doesn't - and likely never will. 




turnera said:


> But you just said she's done it a 100 times. Right? So you KNOW she's very likely to bail on you.
> 
> So...knowing she'll likely bail on you, you WAIT for her to get home to see if she DOES. In other words, you are setting her up to disappoint you so that you can blame your unhappiness on her. That way, it's all her fault and you don't have to change.
> 
> Right out of the book, btw.
> 
> Anyway, you've already been given instructions on what to do - cook and not CARE if she eats it or not. And reread what Blossom said in Scenario #2 - she possibly has learned to walk on eggshells around you, because you aren't discussing this in a forthright way.


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## Chaparral

Hire a pretty maid in a nice skimpy uniform. Quit wasting your time and go do man things.


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## Blossom Leigh

Chaparral said:


> Hire a pretty maid in a nice skimpy uniform. Quit wasting your time and go do man things.


Now that gave me a chuckle. LOL


----------



## cinnabomb

***. Relationships are confusing. 

Well, as to the question about wanting to be appreciated....I dont know why. People always say I take care of everyone but myself. I didnt realize it until we started going to MC. I guess somewhere along the line I became wired like that. I didnt know that it was wrong to be like that. Or maybe not wrong, but maybe not healthy. I enjoy being kind to people and knowing that I improved someones experience of life in some small way. 

But youre right. Why do I have such a hard time and feelings of guilt when I want something for myself? I just dont know. It doesnt even feel right to be selfish in any way if my wife feels a different way. I dont mean everything....like last night I went out for drinks with a friend. I told my wife Im thinking of meeting a friend and asked if she will be ok without me with baby. she said sure. no problem. Didnt feel guilty or selfish or whatever. But with other things, like with intimacy, I dont even ask most of the time because I fear the rejection. Or like with baby, I will say I was thinking we should do this....but she will dismiss it without conversation. And I wont fight it because I dont really care THAT much and im just trying to keep the peace. know what i mean?


----------



## cinnabomb

any other books you guys recommend, aside from NMMNG? I see chaparral has the sex primer book in his signature line. Anything else that has practical info on how to recapture my "manhood", and deal with both relearning and retraining in a situation like this? thanks


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There are several in my signature link you may find helpful.


----------



## MEM2020

A book isn't going to help you make the choice below. You either will or you won't. 

And my last piece of advice is to start and end your day with the exact same question. Every day. In the morning it is: 

Today WILL I? 
And as you go to sleep: Today DID I?

(1) Act like the captain of my own ship, navigating my life as if it is MY LIFE. 

(2) Act like my wife's cabin boy - hoping to get a tip now and then for cleaning her closets, mailing her old clothes out, making her dinner? And radiate a lot of unhappiness at her for not meeting my various needs.

--------






chunderbunder said:


> any other books you guys recommend, aside from NMMNG? I see chaparral has the sex primer book in his signature line. Anything else that has practical info on how to recapture my "manhood", and deal with both relearning and retraining in a situation like this? thanks


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> any other books you guys recommend, aside from NMMNG? I see chaparral has the sex primer book in his signature line. Anything else that has practical info on how to recapture my "manhood", and deal with both relearning and retraining in a situation like this? thanks


Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.


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## jld

You might consider "_Hold Me Tight_," by Sue Johnson

http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Me-Tight-Conversations-Lifetime/dp/1491513810


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## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> ***. Relationships are confusing.
> 
> Well, as to the question about wanting to be appreciated....I dont know why. People always say I take care of everyone but myself. I didnt realize it until we started going to MC. I guess somewhere along the line I became wired like that. I didnt know that it was wrong to be like that. Or maybe not wrong, but maybe not healthy. I enjoy being kind to people and knowing that I improved someones experience of life in some small way.
> 
> But youre right. Why do I have such a hard time and feelings of guilt when I want something for myself? I just dont know. It doesnt even feel right to be selfish in any way if my wife feels a different way. I dont mean everything....like last night I went out for drinks with a friend. I told my wife Im thinking of meeting a friend and asked if she will be ok without me with baby. she said sure. no problem. Didnt feel guilty or selfish or whatever. But with other things, like with intimacy, I dont even ask most of the time because I fear the rejection. Or like with baby, I will say I was thinking we should do this....but she will dismiss it without conversation. And I wont fight it because I dont really care THAT much and im just trying to keep the peace. know what i mean?


That's called a Giver, cb. Givers always Give to everyone around them, with the unspoken agreement that the persons will validate them. Most people don't, validate that is, because they never asked for the help in the first place. And sometimes the person the Giver latches onto is a full-blooded User, the kind of person who seeks OUT a Giver, to basically suck them dry.

That fear you describe though - that's 100% your own low self esteem. If you believed you were a valuable worthy person, you would not FEAR other people's opinion of you, you wouldn't fear them leaving you for someone better, you wouldn't fear criticism because you wouldn't BELIEVE the criticism. But you DO. Believe it. And until you fix YOU, until you believe YOU are a great person people would line up to be with, no book will help, no advice will help, because deep down you'll still 'know' you're unworthy, not as good as others, not deserving of love.

So what are you doing to fix your belief in yourself?


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## Chaparral

chunderbunder said:


> any other books you guys recommend, aside from NMMNG? I see chaparral has the sex primer book in his signature line. Anything else that has practical info on how to recapture my "manhood", and deal with both relearning and retraining in a situation like this? thanks


HOLD ON TO YOUR N.U.T.S comes very highly recomended.


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## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.


The title initially turned me away from this book. @turnera was on me for the better part of 6 months to read it.

I should have read it at month one. 

Get it. Seriously.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Sports Fan

Your wife has lost all respect for you. Stop doing anything for her and look after number 1. The fact that she answers to no one at work in her high powered role means she has projected this way of living in her home life.

She sees you as being clearly beneath her. Unless you man up you will be resigned to this sort of life long term.


----------



## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> The title initially turned me away from this book. @turnera was on me for the better part of 6 months to read it.
> 
> I should have read it at month one.
> 
> Get it. Seriously.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yeah, I bought it so I could give it to my H, thinking it would help him learn to be a better husband to me (e.g., do what I wanted him to do). But I read it first, lol. It is SO spot on about what a man's responsibilities are - twofold: support your family and be there when they need you; BUT never forget what YOUR needs and wants are and never give them up for a woman.


----------



## LongWalk

CB,

The reason you keep looking for some intellectual breakthrough in the form of concrete advice about interaction with your wife is because you are not yet completely able to toss the paradigm of male – female relations that is not working for you – out. Your be nice in little ways approach is wrong. If you hold the door open for someone and they don't acknowledge it in any way, you cannot stew over it. If it happens over and over, the correct response is not to slam the door in their face, but you sure shouldn't spend any extra time being courteous. You don't start covert contracts that are always loss makers.

Go to study martial arts or rock climbing. You need to feel physical discomfort while overcoming existential challenges. Succeeding at that will give you self confidence.

Right now you are still wondering what recipe will lead to a successful dinner – that mindset is grinding you down.

When are you going to work?


----------



## Chuck71

DeMello's Awareness ..... it is coined as a spiritual book.

He speaks of doing #1s-buying / doing something for you. Buy an old car to restore, buy yourself a shirt. As for

Chuck... it could be buying an old Warren Spahn baseball card from the 1940s.

A #2-buy something / do something for someone with no expectations of appreciation. Maybe volunteering

at a homeless shelter, a food kitchen, donating as volunteer at St. Jude's or children's hospital. Chuck gives

time at the Food Bank boxing food for the poor / elderly.

Now a #3..... ahhh.... is where you do something for (in your case) your W and expect a response. When you do

not get the desired response, you get angry. For instance... when you cook for her or... help her donate things

and she does not acknowledge / appreciate... you get angry. These #3s are poisonous. 

A guy from TAM... I took under my wing. He bought his gf a sweater for Christmas. It was one size too

small. She bemoaned it was his way of telling her she is fat and should lose weight. He began apologizing

immediately. When he should have stated... take it back for correct size or .... throw it away.

#3s are lethal because you gauge your happiness from others. 

Co-D is like drinking, binge eating, smoking.... everyone has a vice... EVERYONE. It's can you hold it

in moderation. 


http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf

CB.... ReGroup's thread is three years old but it is filled with sage advice. Conrad and Mavish were 

spectacular. It is a timeless teaching thread. Yes 400+ pages... but it's worth the read.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

CB I just bought myself speakers on eBay - $180 to buy $200 to ship. They're from about 1980 and I already have an identical pair. They're pretty unusual - were $1200 a pair in 1980. I don't need them and newer cheaper technology is probably better. I have 2 boys going to college next year and 3 more after that. I don't have the money for all that

But I wanted them, I dont want all that much, I didn't mention it to my wife. She may not like it but she won't say a thing (probably) but I don't care if she does.

I really like these speakers and maybe I'll use them in another room or use them for parts or give them to one of my kids. IDK and I don't care.

I'm very considerate of my wife and treat her with kid gloves. I randomly bought her a dozen yellow roses and arranged then this week; some red roses I recently bought were old. I don't always buy flowers but felt lie if when I felt like it.

I am independent and confident. W adores me and I adore her. I don't rely on her for happiness but I soak in what she offers.

It's not that hard. Stop trying so hard. Don't try to please her. Do a few things every once in a while - unexpectedly - to show your appreciation. Offer love and respect and demand it back (not whiney)

If you are a complete and independent man and she won't give you the time of day that's your clue to move on


----------



## Chuck71

Can't miss what you still have.

Don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. Think Cinderella 1988

One month pre-D final.... STBXW couldn't stand being around me (setting boundaries may have been why)

One month post-D.... daily e-mails, wanted me to stay at her apt. all weekend, cook one of my fav homemade

dishes. I don't think she intended for us to watch Burns & Allen.

TTH-I bought a 1965 Topps set back in 2007. Was year she was born. Jokingly said I got it for her....

she gladly said no thanks! She knew my intention. I fixed a toy of hers, had it since childhood.

That meant more to her.

I would sit through quite a few "chic" movies for her but she would help me with sorting and packaging / mailing

baseball cards. Doesn't sound like much but.... it meant a lot to me.... and it saved me 20-25 hours a week.....

hours we spent doing things we BOTH enjoyed.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

If you are given filet mignon every single night, eventually you get tired of it for sure. 

Time to starve her... plain and simple.

Only risk..... is someone else giving her filet mignon too.

If so, the impact is muted.


----------



## cinnabomb

starve her of the attention and other things that I do for her? I can do that. I have already started trying. yesterday there was a basketball game on that i wanted to watch so i stayed engrossed in it the entire game, cheering and enjoying myself, even though at times i felt the urge to sort of check in on her. like "am i allowed to really watch a whole game without doing anything responsible?". when i say allowed, i mean am i allowing myself...she doesnt really care or demand much of me. well, i had a great time and she worked next to me and was laughing at our baby imitating me cheering, etc. felt nice to just enjoy something for me. baby steps i guess. im going to get some of those books you guys recommended. 

thanks for all the other advice too, i need to reread this whole thread and just keep trying. I will update you as we go along!



Blossom Leigh said:


> If you are given filet mignon every single night, eventually you get tired of it for sure.
> 
> Time to starve her... plain and simple.
> 
> Only risk..... is someone else giving her filet mignon too.
> 
> If so, the impact is muted.


----------



## turnera

How many times a week do you hang out with other men? In what ways?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> starve her of the attention and other things that I do for her? I can do that. I have already started trying. yesterday there was a basketball game on that i wanted to watch so i stayed engrossed in it the entire game, cheering and enjoying myself, even though at times i felt the urge to sort of check in on her. like "am i allowed to really watch a whole game without doing anything responsible?". when i say allowed, i mean am i allowing myself...she doesnt really care or demand much of me. well, i had a great time and she worked next to me and was laughing at our baby imitating me cheering, etc. felt nice to just enjoy something for me. baby steps i guess. im going to get some of those books you guys recommended.
> 
> thanks for all the other advice too, i need to reread this whole thread and just keep trying. I will update you as we go along!


Excellent!!!!!!!


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> starve her of the attention and other things that I do for her? I can do that. I have already started trying. yesterday there was a basketball game on that i wanted to watch so i stayed engrossed in it the entire game, cheering and enjoying myself, even though at times i felt the urge to sort of check in on her. like "am i allowed to really watch a whole game without doing anything responsible?". when i say allowed, i mean am i allowing myself...she doesnt really care or demand much of me. well, i had a great time and she worked next to me and was laughing at our baby imitating me cheering, etc. felt nice to just enjoy something for me. baby steps i guess. im going to get some of those books you guys recommended.


Remember something important. When you pull back, do the 180, 'starve' her of doing things (don't starve her of attention), do it in a healthy way. Not in a 'I'm upset with you' way, but in a 'I'm not gonna let this bother me' way. In a 'I love you, but I have better things to do than kiss your butt today if you won't reciprocate' way. 

This isn't about hurting her or punishing her. It's about reestablishing WHO YOU ARE, as a separate entity, who deserves his own happiness, deserves to do what he wants, and if she wants to go along for the ride with you, great, but if she doesn't, you're too busy staying happy to let it bother you.

Do you understand?


----------



## bfree

Remember CB, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making sure your needs get fulfilled. Think about it this way. You have needs. We all do. Those needs have to be met one way or another. It's inevitable. If you aren't making sure those needs are taken care of then you are relying on someone else to take care of them for you. That doesn't sound healthy or even fair does it? So when you start feeling selfish for taking care of your needs just remember that you are actually saving someone else from having to do it for you. It's not selfishness it's self reliance and not only is it healthy it's attractive to others.


----------



## cinnabomb

I go to the gym 2-3 times a week, sometimes with a trainer, sometimes with a friend. I play ball once a week with guys. I meet a friend for drinks about 2x per week as well. sometimes at a local bar, sometimes just at their place or mine. thats about all the free time i really have. 



turnera said:


> How many times a week do you hang out with other men? In what ways?


----------



## cinnabomb

i 100% understand but just being honest its really hard. i miss her. and shes right there. and the whole time i am doing something else i am wishing i was doing it with her. we were VERY close for many years. very codependent. its a lonely feeling. im trying not to break but its hard. sometimes lately i think that she is feeling similarly also. like she wants to hug me also but the distance has kept her from doing much of it also. 



turnera said:


> Remember something important. When you pull back, do the 180, 'starve' her of doing things (don't starve her of attention), do it in a healthy way. Not in a 'I'm upset with you' way, but in a 'I'm not gonna let this bother me' way. In a 'I love you, but I have better things to do than kiss your butt today if you won't reciprocate' way.
> 
> This isn't about hurting her or punishing her. It's about reestablishing WHO YOU ARE, as a separate entity, who deserves his own happiness, deserves to do what he wants, and if she wants to go along for the ride with you, great, but if she doesn't, you're too busy staying happy to let it bother you.
> 
> Do you understand?


----------



## turnera

Think of this as your 'study period.' I like to tell people to envision getting a Masters Degree. It's a hell of a lot of work, really shakes up your life for a short period, but it gives you the payoff of a lifetime.


----------



## AliceA

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. When she starts noticing you aren't there for her anymore, she'll start to realise what she is missing. Better to pull back now while you are together, giving her a chance to figure this out and take the necessary steps to win you back than to leave it until there's no choice but to get a divorce. Good luck OP.


----------



## cinnabomb

right. i get it. im just a bit confused still about how to "be" around the house. like today I wouldnt say i was aloof, but I was definitely not giving her the usual attention. for awhile I sat and watched a bit of tv, played with baby, worked on laptop, etc, but not initiating any conversation with her at all. It sucks. I miss having conversations with her. but nowadays she is so rarely ever engaged with me anyways that i end up feeling hurt if I get excited and try to talk to her about something and she is caught up in her show or work or whatever. 

so i just sort of ignore her. not really ignore but just not really putting effort into initiating anything with her. she asked me a couple things here or there and I answer but not really investing in it. am I being neglectful?? trying to figure all this out. 

also like once or twice a day the last week or so she might give me a hug, but i dont really feel like hugging back. not fully anyways. i still feel upset with her...angry, resentful, whatever. so then she says....can you hug me to.with both hands? so then i do. im just afraid of investing in her again right now, getting optimistic, being generous with love, and then getting hurt again. hope you understand. 

advice is always appreciated....




turnera said:


> Think of this as your 'study period.' I like to tell people to envision getting a Masters Degree. It's a hell of a lot of work, really shakes up your life for a short period, but it gives you the payoff of a lifetime.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> but i dont really feel like hugging back. not fully anyways. i still feel upset with her...angry, resentful, whatever. so then she says....can you hug me to.with both hands? so then i do.


You want to improve? The next time she says 'can you hug me with both hands,' you reply with "I don't want to hug you with both hands when you aren't meeting MY needs."

Can you do that?


----------



## Chuck71

CB...... will you be watching the game Sunday?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I think taking the time to just say to yourself, "you know what, we got sideways, I don't fully understand how it happened yet and I don't know how to fix it yet, but today I'm alive, I'm breathing, I have a beautiful child and the ability to try again. She can have her space to be all she can be, I'm going to explore my awesomeness today. I will practice kindness towards her, but will have no expectations nor will I hover, cling, or read anything into her behavior, positive or negative. We both contributed to this mess and somehow we'll get it figured out, but today I'm going to have a good day and create some fun today for me and our child. If she ends up getting curious and joining me, she's welcome to. And if she doesn't, well thats ok too. Its going to be a great day. I'm shaking off the yuck today."


----------



## AliceA

I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet, but the book "Getting the Love You Want" by H. Hendrix is a very positive book and will possibly give you a greater understanding of yourself and your relationship. The exercises in the back, if you can get your wife to do them with you, are very helpful.


----------



## LongWalk

turnera said:


> How many times a week do you hang out with other men? In what ways?


This is essential.

Men and women need outside references to make sense of their status. You are measuring everything in terms of the feedback coming from you wife. The amount of power she has over your wellbeing is unhealthy.

Once again go to the gym and find some other way of measuring yourself. If you take up triathlons, for example, everybody is trying add what is missing from their competitive profile. They are comparing themselves to other swimmers, runners and cyclists. What their coaches say matters. What times do they get? Are they improving?

All you have is your wife's rejections.

Create goals in your physical training. But remember sports are largely mental. If you overcome the challenges there, your self confidence will rise. Your wife will be attracted to you.

Let me give you an example. One of the only sports I was good at was skiing. When I was 18 I went into a nature reserve with woman dorm mate who had her skiis, too. There was no lift. We climbed to the top of a hill. I wanted to show off and went to highest point. There was only a narrow path that dipped horizontally. I thought I would do a few elegant turns, go over the lip and ski down, but when I began I discovered it was too narrow and suddenly I was doing to hurtle myself off into the air in the most risky jump I had ever made.

It was totally unintentional, but I was flying through a very long distance and managed to land. I never would have tried it. It was just a beta male miscalculation that worked out.

The girl was so turned on. She admired the **** out of me. If I had been smooth I would have kissed her and slept with her that afternoon. But I was shy. By the time I did try to make a move on her, the moment had passed. Women want to see masculinity in the here and now to feel sexual attraction.

If you earn a belt in some marital art, maybe your wife will want to get fvcked by the strange and potential violent man that you have become. You will never change things with a better dinner recipe. 

Don't sit and watch basketball. Watching sports is enormous beta industry. How can all the beta guys sit and cheer for men who look like gods and warriors play football and basketball and expect their wives to feel horny for them?

How many women watch the NFL or NBA with their husbands and fantasize about having sex with a professional athlete?

Why is CrossFit cult like?

If a woman is into CrossFit and her husband is at home watching TV and drinking beer, there is a good chance she will cheat or leave him.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Long walk - you make a good point about watching sports. I've never seen the attraction - and I've never really felt any affinity for any player or team. I do go to games when my little brother gives me tickets and I have fun - but it's the event and company.

I've never expressed it like you did because I see no need to insult all the people around me who are completely wrapped up in sports. But it seems so beta and strange for a guy to idolize other men who they have no connection with and who are often just young guys playing a sport for a few years. Oh well...


----------



## cinnabomb

honestly? no I dont think I can. it would result in a big fight, she will ignore and hold resentment until our next session with MC, then bring it up there, and I will probably look like the a$$ because I didnt communicate in the way the MC wants us to. saying that sounds like blame, which the MC is asking us to avoid and it could spiral into something bad. 

I want to say that at times my wife IS trying, but she is SO used to being taken care of and being the boss and having all her assistants and etc, that I dont think she genuinely remembers what its like to GIVE to me, care for me, etc. Everyday, she still gets home and starts watching shows on her laptop. One of these days I am hoping she wont and will ask me how my day was or initiate a dialogue, or ask if I want to hang out or whatever, but hasnt happened yet. Cant remember the last time it did. 




turnera said:


> You want to improve? The next time she says 'can you hug me with both hands,' you reply with "I don't want to hug you with both hands when you aren't meeting MY needs."
> 
> Can you do that?


----------



## cinnabomb

definitely, we are going to a friends house to watch and let our kids play. go bulls!



Chuck71 said:


> CB...... will you be watching the game Sunday?


----------



## cinnabomb

this is an awesome post. really well written and relatable, and somehow positive in a $hitty situation. thank you. 



Blossom Leigh said:


> I think taking the time to just say to yourself, "you know what, we got sideways, I don't fully understand how it happened yet and I don't know how to fix it yet, but today I'm alive, I'm breathing, I have a beautiful child and the ability to try again. She can have her space to be all she can be, I'm going to explore my awesomeness today. I will practice kindness towards her, but will have no expectations nor will I hover, cling, or read anything into her behavior, positive or negative. We both contributed to this mess and somehow we'll get it figured out, but today I'm going to have a good day and create some fun today for me and our child. If she ends up getting curious and joining me, she's welcome to. And if she doesn't, well thats ok too. Its going to be a great day. I'm shaking off the yuck today."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

chunderbunder said:


> this is an awesome post. really well written and relatable, and somehow positive in a $hitty situation. thank you.


VERY welcome.

I just think in situations where new behaviors are being tried it's good to be able to shake off the days that were less than perfect and try again the next day without bringing yesterday's failure forward. That's part of how my H and I survived one hell of a mess. :grin2:


----------



## cinnabomb

thank you. I want to mention that last night I said *** it and bought 4 of the books you mentioned on kindle. NMMNG (i read a pdf of this but want to reread it), married man primer, NUTS, and when i say no i feel guilty. I plan to read all 4 in the next month and try and implement what I can. 



breeze said:


> I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet, but the book "Getting the Love You Want" by H. Hendrix is a very positive book and will possibly give you a greater understanding of yourself and your relationship. The exercises in the back, if you can get your wife to do them with you, are very helpful.


----------



## cinnabomb

I will throw this into the mix...i dont watch a LOT of sports, but I do love basketball because ive been a lifetime bball player. Im good at the sport, and she knows it, so watching it for me is about learning the game, NOT sitting and getting drunk and saying "wow i wish i was them!!!". I also just joined an adult league and will be playing in that very soon. hopefully she will come and watch, but who knows. 

but that aside, I get what you are saying. But its 7pm on a weekday. we are all tired. what else is left? I suppose I could endlessly do pushups in the middle of the living room for no apparent reason :wink2:, but aside from having dinner, and then playing with the baby and watching a tv....thats all there is....right???



TheTruthHurts said:


> Long walk - you make a good point about watching sports. I've never seen the attraction - and I've never really felt any affinity for any player or team. I do go to games when my little brother gives me tickets and I have fun - but it's the event and company.
> 
> I've never expressed it like you did because I see no need to insult all the people around me who are completely wrapped up in sports. But it seems so beta and strange for a guy to idolize other men who they have no connection with and who are often just young guys playing a sport for a few years. Oh well...


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I watch Dexter with my DD14 and DD12 and other Netflix series. My wife hates it and thinks I am corrupting their minds, but we chuckle. It's a morality play with a vulnerable guy the girls can relate to and has drama and murder for me - WIN!

What shows does W watch? Maybe you should watch something you both like.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sorry misread - we go walking sometimes. Watch stupid YouTube videos like ones with people after their wisdom teeth are pulled - they're very funny. Theyre short and give us a laugh. I think it's important to laugh, listen to music


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Agree  We watch a lot of funny stuff at our house.


----------



## cinnabomb

anyone know how to change your user name here? i emailed the mods a couple times with no response.


----------



## Chaparral

chunderbunder said:


> honestly? no I dont think I can. it would result in a big fight, she will ignore and hold resentment until our next session with MC, then bring it up there, and I will probably look like the a$$ because I didnt communicate in the way the MC wants us to. saying that sounds like blame, which the MC is asking us to avoid and it could spiral into something bad.
> 
> I want to say that at times my wife IS trying, but she is SO used to being taken care of and being the boss and having all her assistants and etc, that I dont think she genuinely remembers what its like to GIVE to me, care for me, etc. Everyday, she still gets home and starts watching shows on her laptop. One of these days I am hoping she wont and will ask me how my day was or initiate a dialogue, or ask if I want to hang out or whatever, but hasnt happened yet. Cant remember the last time it did.


Make her come find you. Watch yourself are you hovering around her like a lap dog wanting a pat on the head cause that's what this sounds like. Be more like a cat.


----------



## cinnabomb

got it, hide and seek. ill hide in the kitchen cabinet. jk. i get it. 

we only really watch something together when baby is finally down and we get into bed. then we watch different things but she always falls asleep within 15 minutes so then i watch something by myself. 



Chaparral said:


> Make her come find you. Watch yourself are you hovering around her like a lap dog wanting a pat on the head cause that's what this sounds like. Be more like a cat.


----------



## Chaparral

chunderbunder said:


> anyone know how to change your user name here? i emailed the mods a couple times with no response.


Go to the first thread in this section and message the guy that wrote the sticky, Chris H.


----------



## jld

CB, does she ever say something simple like it is stressful to have both a big job and a baby? Because those two things sound very stressful to me.


----------



## cinnabomb

not very often, but i know its hard. we both take on a ton and its hard on both of us. baby is her absolute joy in this world though, so even though its hard, she has SO much fun with baby. she spends a lot of time with the little one, in morning, after daycare, etc. she really adores her to the point where 99% of my wifes conversations with me are about baby. i adore baby too but sometimes it would be nice to talk about other things you know?



jld said:


> CB, does she ever say something simple like it is stressful to have both a big job and a baby? Because those two things sound very stressful to me.


----------



## jld

chunderbunder said:


> not very often, but i know its hard. we both take on a ton and its hard on both of us. baby is her absolute joy in this world though, so even though its hard, she has SO much fun with baby. she spends a lot of time with the little one, in morning, after daycare, etc. she really adores her to the point where 99% of my wifes conversations with me are about baby. i adore baby too but sometimes it would be nice to talk about other things you know?


Sure. But you two are in a hard time. That first year is tough.

I think it is good for you to consider all the suggestions you are getting. But be patient, too. Some of this may resolve in time, as the baby gets older and your wife's career evolves.

She still reaches out to you sometimes, you've said. Still says she loves you. That shows caring.


----------



## LongWalk

Jld,

Stay at home dad's are not sexy.

CB,

There is an old thread that might help you. Chuck will remember the name..... A guy was a skilled tool and die machinist with a good paying job but his wife was a business executive. He became a stay at home dad. He noticed her tune in to a neighbor. He never was able to discover if she consummated her attraction to the neighbor, but he was absolutely certain that his wife disrespected him. 

He became more masculine and that included being sexually dominate. He stopped being a push over and he corrected the situation.

Maybe his name is Jerry123


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> Jld,
> 
> Stay at home dad's are not sexy.
> 
> CB,
> 
> There is an old thread that might help you. Chuck will remember the name..... A guy was a skilled tool and die machinist with a good paying job but his wife was a business executive. He became a stay at home dad. He noticed her tune in to a neighbor. He never was able to discover if she consummated her attraction to the neighbor, but he was absolutely certain that his wife disrespected him.
> 
> He became more masculine and that included being sexually dominate. He stopped being a push over and he corrected the situation.
> 
> Maybe his name is Jerry123


You are right, it is @jerry123

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Are you a SAHD, CB? I thought you were working, too.


----------



## cinnabomb

ive made it abundantly clear that I am not a SAHD. I work MULTIPLE jobs. a 9-5, then managing properties, and a published author. I am transitioning out of finance to focus on writing full time. Ive had a successful career, made and saved plenty of $, and now want to pursue my passion. she makes more than me, but I still have made more than most people need. 



jld said:


> Are you a SAHD, CB? I thought you were working, too.


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> I think we see this in CWI. So much emphasis on controlling the wayward, instead of trying to understand him/her. And very little on looking at the hand of the betrayed in the troubles. A real resistance to it, in fact.
> 
> 
> 
> People feel fear and want to protect themselves. But instead of doing it the healthy way, by trying to understand what went wrong and how to fix it, they try to control the other person. They think the other person has the obligation to make them feel safe.
> 
> This is what is happening with chunder, I think. He wants his wife to make him feel safe, instead of first making her feel safe.
> 
> 
> 
> Chunder would first need to make himself feel safe. He needs to look at his fears and resolve them. He needs to become stronger in himself.
> 
> As he learns to love and care for himself, he will become less needy and more emotionally available to give to his wife. She will feel his ability to emotionally nurture her and not make her feel judged, which is what is pushing her away right now.
> 
> But it is hard when we feel so deprived. It is like we are starved for love, with an empty cupboard, and someone is asking us to make a feast.



the only thing that 'needs to be understood' about the wayward is that they are causing more damage and violating the marital vows. Everything else is off the table. Noone should be there trying to coddle the wayward while they are out sexing it up with another man/woman. CWI is effective because it tries to force the betrayed to get the wayward to own their $hit. 

Also, you ignore how often someone is 'emotionally available' but the wayward lies and manipulates that person into believing that they aren't.

Doing it your way is teaching someone how to end up as a cuckold. Not good or effective


----------



## AliceA

I read the part about putting children to bed, going to bed and watching TV and was a bit surprised. Is it normal for people to have TVs in their bedrooms now? Seems like a bad idea imo. Anyway, DH and I will watch a movie/tv show together or play a game, then go to bed. We're not in our own house right now, but we used to grab a glass of wine and cook something new together occasionally to spend time together.

I don't necessarily think you should hide from her. Actively avoiding her would be a bit ridiculous. You are married and you're trying to stay that way after all. People take the whole 180 way too far I think. It's about not being reliant on her for everything and I don't see that you do that anyway. You have plenty of your own activities. At this stage I'm surprised you have any time with her at all.

This is all a moot point if she's investing too much in her business partner though. I read the part where she's rarely having sex with you, treats him like he's her husband and has started getting bikini waxes. Nothing you do will matter if that's the case.


----------



## turnera

It's not about hiding. It's not about an attitude. It's about being secure in your own person and being able to sit next to a person who's shooting daggers at you or ignoring you - AND NOT GETTING UPSET. Don't wanna talk to me? That's cool, I got a good show to watch. That kind of thing. Always try to share time with her, but when she shoots you down, SHRUG and say 'ok, cool, I'll see ya later.'


----------



## cinnabomb

just an update. ive started reading sex life primer, but not far in yet. also been trying to do as you say...not hiding, but not giving too much attention. i feel like I dont know the line so I am definitely erring on the side of probably TOO distant, if that makes sense. I am not initiating much conversation, or anything physical. Went out for drinks with a friend last night. worked out today. Playing with baby a lot but not really having any kind of relationship with wife. its awkward. I know she senses it because a few times when she gave me a goodbye hug and i sort of didnt hug back she said can you hug too? and when i left for the gym today, she said "are you going to give me a kiss, or no?" I did, but was still awkward. I sort of feel like the more distant i become, the more she "mirrors" me. 

Am i doing something wrong?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

No you are just struggling. Keep in mind "what would I do if she didn't exist". You're niot avoiding her or reacting to her - you're becoming independent.

As you get more comfortable with that it will be easier.

You can still hug when she initiated, give her a peck on the way out, etc. 

She's mirroring you trying to figure out what's going on. So she's noticing something


----------



## jld

chunderbunder said:


> just an update. ive started reading sex life primer, but not far in yet. also been trying to do as you say...not hiding, but not giving too much attention. i feel like I dont know the line so I am definitely erring on the side of probably TOO distant, if that makes sense. I am not initiating much conversation, or anything physical. Went out for drinks with a friend last night. worked out today. Playing with baby a lot but not really having any kind of relationship with wife. its awkward. I know she senses it because a few times when she gave me a goodbye hug and i sort of didnt hug back she said can you hug too? and when i left for the gym today, she said "are you going to give me a kiss, or no?" I did, but was still awkward. I sort of feel like the more distant i become, the more she "mirrors" me.
> 
> Am i doing something wrong?


You're not being yourself. She sees the disconnect.

It is fine to hear the full spectrum of advice. But ultimately, you need to sort out what will work for you, what can be authentic from you, and leave the rest. Lack of authenticity is not going to build trust.

And remember, nobody knows you and your wife here. We are all just giving our best guesses. Your therapist not only knows you IRL, but has done professional study and has professional experience. You pay for that advice for a reason.


----------



## cinnabomb

one thing that annoys me is when I DO try and make convo, or even just say something like "check this out," or "I was thinking about this for dinner," or just telling her anything, she is often engrossed in her laptop (she is literally staring at her laptop every waking minute of the day), and doesnt respond. its beyond annoying to be standing there and not get a response, and then i have to be like "honey? did you hear me?". sometimes multiple times. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she probably just gets engrossed and isnt paying attention, but i feel disrespected when she does it. 

any advice how to handle it?


----------



## jld

chunderbunder said:


> one thing that annoys me is when I DO try and make convo, or even just say something like "check this out," or "I was thinking about this for dinner," or just telling her anything, she is often engrossed in her laptop (she is literally staring at her laptop every waking minute of the day), and doesnt respond. its beyond annoying to be standing there and not get a response, and then i have to be like "honey? did you hear me?". sometimes multiple times. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she probably just gets engrossed and isnt paying attention, but i feel disrespected when she does it.
> 
> any advice how to handle it?


"Honey, are you listening?" Don't proceed until you make eye contact, ideally smiling at her. 

SimplyAmorous said that when she is not listening, her husband will say something totally out of character, like, "I'm heading out to the bar now." (He never goes to bars.) That always gets her attention!


----------



## Marc878

chunderbunder said:


> one thing that annoys me is when I DO try and make convo, or even just say something like "check this out," or "I was thinking about this for dinner," or just telling her anything, she is often engrossed in her laptop (she is literally staring at her laptop every waking minute of the day), and doesnt respond. its beyond annoying to be standing there and not get a response, and then i have to be like "honey? did you hear me?". sometimes multiple times. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she probably just gets engrossed and isnt paying attention, but i feel disrespected when she does it.
> 
> any advice how to handle it?


You've given her way to much "benefit of the doubt". Concentrate on working on the new you. Your actions will speak a lot louder than words.

Her actions or innatention seem to be that you just don't matter. You're an afterthought.

You can communicate this to her but......


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yes. Stop. Don't compete with her electronics.

If you want to tell her something get her attention first not after the fact. That's kind of whiney

Say - put that down a second I want to show you something. If she doesn't then drop it


----------



## jld

You might want to take a look at this, chunder:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/articles/69152-6-ways-get-more-respect-your-wife.html


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## turnera

My mind's drawn a blank - does she work? 

If not, you might consider just cancelling the internet. Tell her it's become too much of a distraction for the whole family, and you want the family to learn to interact again without it. See what happens.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> My mind's drawn a blank - does she work?
> 
> If not, you might consider just cancelling the internet. Tell her it's become too much of a distraction for the whole family, and you want the family to learn to interact again without it. See what happens.


She has a big job in Hollywood.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yep, many suggestions for various pattern interupts. Your goal is to interrupt the patterns. It can be from light hearted to serious. The "going to the bars" in gest is light hearted, swinging all the way to cutting off internet and if it were me I would no longer do the cooking... I would pull back hard, but thats just me. 

I don't tolerate that level of distraction/disrespect. When I speak in our home TV's are muted or turned off and eyes are on me. I would feel no guilt whatsoever closing her laptop at this degree of disrespect. I would have her attention without question.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yep, many suggestions for various pattern interupts. Your goal is to interrupt the patterns. It can be from light hearted to serious. The "going to the bars" in gest is light hearted, swinging all the way to cutting off internet and if it were me I would no longer do the cooking... I would pull back hard, but thats just me.
> 
> I don't tolerate that level of distraction/disrespect. When I speak in our home TV's are muted or turned off and eyes are on me. I would feel no guilt whatsoever closing her laptop at this degree of disrespect. I would have her attention without question.


Blossom, I am guessing that you would feel comfortable with your husband closing your laptop if he did not feel heard by you, correct?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Blossom, I am guessing that you would feel comfortable with your husband closing your laptop if he did not feel heard by you, correct?


He would never have to do that with me because I give a lot of respect. But, if I had gotten THIS disrespectful, yes, I would want him to shut it down. I would respect him for it.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Blossom, I am guessing that you would feel comfortable with your husband closing your laptop if he did not feel heard by you, correct?


My wife does something similar to me when I'm not listening. I actually appreciate the prodding. I feel free to do the same. Last week she was engrossed with something on her phone. After a couple of attempts to get her attention I grabbed her phone and asked her what was do darned interesting. She didn't get angry, she giggled and apologized. Insisting on simple respect doesn't have to be hostile.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> He would never have to do that with me because I give a lot of respect. But, if I had gotten THIS disrespectful, yes, I would want him to shut it down. I would respect him for it.


And you feel like chunder's wife would be similarly grateful?


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> My wife does something similar to me when I'm not listening. I actually appreciate the prodding. I feel free to do the same. Last week she was engrossed with something on her phone. After a couple of attempts to get her attention I grabbed her phone and asked her what was do darned interesting. She didn't get angry, she giggled and apologized. Insisting on simple respect doesn't have to be hostile.


You mean it does not have to be interpreted as hostile, or aggressive?

What if it feels aggressive, nonetheless? 

I ask because we are not sure how chunder's wife would respond. I know I would feel aggressed by that. Not only would I feel disrespected, I would feel frightened by the aggression. It would not build the relationship.

It could be that his wife would giggle like yours did, or feel grateful like Blossom. But she might feel aggressed and frightened, like I would.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> And you feel like chunder's wife would be similarly grateful?


Possibly. This other guy has got her attention for some reason. If she is operating in an aggressive world, she may be seeking protection in a stronger male.

Chunder can choose his style of pattern interrupt. As long as it is effective.

"As soft as possible, but firm as necessary."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> You mean it does not have to be interpreted as hostile, or aggressive?
> 
> What if it feels aggressive, nonetheless?
> 
> I ask because we are not sure how chunder's wife would respond. I know I would feel aggressed by that. Not only would I feel disrespected, I would feel frightened by the aggression. It would not build the relationship.
> 
> It could be that his wife would giggle like yours did, or feel grateful like Blossom. But she might feel aggressed and frightened, like I would.


And he would need to assess that for sure.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Possibly. This other guy has got her attention for some reason. If she is operating in an aggressive world, she may be seeking protection in a stronger male.
> 
> Chunder can choose his style of pattern interrupt. As long as it is effective.
> 
> "As soft as possible, but firm as necessary."


I really wish she would leave this job. I think it is an unnecessary stress in her life.

Totally agree he would need to use discernment in deciding how to approach her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I really wish she would leave this job. I think it is an unnecessary stress in her life.
> 
> Totally agree he would need to use discernment in deciding how to approach her.


Yep, the job is a big problem.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> You mean it does not have to be interpreted as hostile, or aggressive?
> 
> What if it feels aggressive, nonetheless?
> 
> I ask because we are not sure how chunder's wife would respond. I know I would feel aggressed by that. Not only would I feel disrespected, I would feel frightened by the aggression. It would not build the relationship.
> 
> It could be that his wife would giggle like yours did, or feel grateful like Blossom. But she might feel aggressed and frightened, like I would.


Based on the OP's description of his wife she doesn't seem like a submissive. So I don't feel it's appropriate to compare her feelings to yours. If anything she seems more like a Dom but even if she is more centered like my wife I doubt insisting on being heard would be interpreted as aggressive. In any case what he's been doing isn't working so it seems a change is certainly in order.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Based on the OP's description of his wife she doesn't seem like a submissive. So I don't feel it's appropriate to compare her feelings to yours. If anything she seems more like a Dom but even if she is more centered like my wife I doubt insisting on being heard would be interpreted as aggressive. In any case what he's been doing isn't working so it seems a change is certainly in order.


He knows his wife best. He can certainly try the various advice he is getting and gauge her reaction.

He does seem to have a great need for affirmation from her. I do think it is a need on his part. Most advice to him seems to be sensitive to that.

My own advice, to not judge her and provide validation to the extent he conscientiously can, seems to be falling on deaf ears.

The impression I have gotten is that *both* he and his wife are looking for leadership in the other.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> He knows his wife best. He can certainly try the various advice he is getting and gauge her reaction.
> 
> He does seem to have a great need for affirmation from her. I do think it is a need on his part. Most advice to him seems to be sensitive to that.
> 
> My own advice, to not judge her and provide validation to the extent he conscientiously can, seems to be falling on deaf ears.
> 
> The impression I have gotten is that *both* he and his wife are looking for leadership in the other.


I can relate a great deal to his need for affirmation (admiration) as it is certainly one of my top needs, along with honesty and touch (affection.) He does need to make sure that his desire for affirmation is just a normal need and not something that exists on an unhealthy level. A but of introspection on his part will be very valuable. I do agree with you to a great extent that he shouldn't judge her but he does need to take on the role of leadership more consistently. I think by insisting on respect, by doing his own thing more, and by being less "available" he is moving more toward that leadership role. If nothing else he will appear less needy and that is always more attractive. Now if he can add genuine confidence to that mix his wife might see the change and gravitate more toward him. Then he'll (hopefully) start to receive that affirmation that he needs. Of course if his wife has transitioned to a more Dom role due to her job then nothing he does will work and the relationship will just disintegrate organically.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> I can relate a great deal to his need for affirmation (admiration) as it is certainly one of my top needs, along with honesty and touch (affection.) He does need to make sure that his desire for affirmation is just a normal need and not something that exists on an unhealthy level. A but of introspection on his part will be very valuable. I do agree with you to a great extent that he shouldn't judge her but he does need to take on the role of leadership more consistently. I think by insisting on respect, by doing his own thing more, and by being less "available" he is moving more toward that leadership role. If nothing else he will appear less needy and that is always more attractive. Now if he can add genuine confidence to that mix his wife might see the change and gravitate more toward him. Then he'll (hopefully) start to receive that affirmation that he needs. Of course if his wife has transitioned to a more Dom role due to her job then nothing he does will work and the relationship will just disintegrate organically.


Do you think asking him to do all this is asking him to be someone he is not, bfree? That is what I wonder sometimes.

Just a comment on "insisting" on respect. It is definitely possible to intimidate someone into speaking to you or treating you with deference. 

But I do not think that is true respect. I think true respect is always earned.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Do you think asking him to do all this is asking him to be someone he is not, bfree? That is what I wonder sometimes.
> 
> Just a comment on "insisting" on respect. It is definitely possible to intimidate someone into speaking to you or treating you with deference.
> 
> But I do not think that is true respect. I think true respect is always earned.


I think that by insisting on a certain level of common courtesy the OP is going to earn his wife's respect. He's certainly not going to earn it by allowing her to disrespect him. Respect is a funny thing. It's meaning is different to everyone but it seems everyone needs it to some degree. If you are in a relationship it is a necessary component because love without respect is inadequate. I think in this case the OP's need for affirmation most probably ties into the respect issue. It is why I suggested that he should do some self exploration to see whether his need is a healthy one because it could also signify a lack of self respect. And if he doesn't respect himself first he's not going to receive respect from others.

As for what I'm asking him to do, I'm actually not asking him to do anything. I'm suggesting that he change directions since what has been transpiring so far has put his marriage into a pretty bad place. Sometimes when you find yourself in a hole the best thing to do first is to stop digging.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> I think that by insisting on a certain level of common courtesy the OP is going to earn his wife's respect. He's certainly not going to earn it by allowing her to disrespect him. Respect is a funny thing. It's meaning is different to everyone but it seems everyone needs it to some degree. If you are in a relationship it is a necessary component because love without respect is inadequate. I think in this case the OP's need for affirmation most probably ties into the respect issue. It is why I suggested that he should do some self exploration to see whether his need is a healthy one because it could also signify a lack of self respect. And if he doesn't respect himself first he's not going to receive respect from others.
> 
> As for what I'm asking him to do, I'm actually not asking him to do anything. I'm suggesting that he change directions since what has been transpiring so far has put his marriage into a pretty bad place. Sometimes when you find yourself in a hole the best thing to do first is to stop digging.


Idk, bfree. "Allowing her to disrespect him" sounds open to interpretation.

I think using humor the way SA's husband did to get her attention seems like a non-threatening approach.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> I think that by insisting on a certain level of common courtesy the OP is going to earn his wife's respect. He's certainly not going to earn it by allowing her to disrespect him. Respect is a funny thing. It's meaning is different to everyone but it seems everyone needs it to some degree. If you are in a relationship it is a necessary component because love without respect is inadequate. I think in this case the OP's need for affirmation most probably ties into the respect issue. It is why I suggested that he should do some self exploration to see whether his need is a healthy one because it could also signify a lack of self respect. And if he doesn't respect himself first he's not going to receive respect from others.
> 
> As for what I'm asking him to do, I'm actually not asking him to do anything. I'm suggesting that he change directions since what has been transpiring so far has put his marriage into a pretty bad place. Sometimes when you find yourself in a hole the best thing to do first is to stop digging.


Chunder, on the respect front. My horse, Sherman, is alpha in his pasture with 14 other horses. He is one of the most effective alphas I've ever seen. What stands out to me is he can be half way across a 30 acre pasture and horses standing up at the barn will part the seas when he's still that far out. He *expects* to be respected and maintains a presence about him. He's benevolent, but *as soon as* another horse is non responsive to his leadership he is *swift* to bite, kick or ram that non responsive horse. Timing is everything. And no, we are not horses, but I find the concepts crossover to a high degree.


----------



## cinnabomb

BINGO. this job in that environment and with that partner is what ruined our marriage. however, she loves her job. its not stress to her. because she is good at it, is paid a lot there, is well respected, rubs elbows with A-list celebrities everyday, and is totally validated for being aggressive, demanding, even hostile. sort of hard to compete with that, seeing that she is in THAT environment up to 10 hours a day and she is with me barely 2 waking hours of the day. 

In the last month we havent even had a single conversation. not one. not one conversation of how was your day, blah blah. the only communication at all is about our baby...or maybe..."what plans do we have this weekend?". but when we are with friend, she hangs with the other moms and me with the dads. we literally have no interaction or relationship. it sucks. and im trying to read those books and listen to you guys but I dont feel like I am doing this right, because all I am doing is basically just ignoring her, or rather not inititiating anything with her. 

I just do my own thing and she does hers....every single day. this isnt a marriage. the worst part is she doesnt even seem to care. like the way she is behaving is as if this is what she wants. a husband who stays out of her way? its confusing actually. on one hand, she doesnt seem to care when im not around. she never utters the words i missed you or anything like that. but then on the other hand she will be like "are you to give me a kiss too?". the truth is I dont even want to. im still full of resentment of how much she has hurt me. and I am confused about how to act around her. 

trying to find a balance but not sure what it is. im getting really tired of seeing her bury herself in shows with her headphones on, and watching her eat unhealthy and get fatter, and then watching her be dissmissive to me....like an example was valentines day. i am traveling this week so v day would have been hard to do, but I said I think we can can do it on the night of the 11th. she goes "lets just postpone it a week." i say, that doesnt feel right to wait a week, i think i can make it work. she is dissmissive and says "lets just wait a week so you can focus on your work." i just gave in. the truth is I didnt care THAT much when we do it...if I did I would voice it, but it annoyed me that she just makes a decision and thinks she is the final say on everything. this is how it is at her job but im tired of it at home. maybe she was trying to be helpful....i think she was...she knew i would be burdened by stress....but she never asked "what do you think?" like she used to...or "whatever you decide" which she used to. shes so bossy now its a huge turnoff. 

what do you guys think?





jld said:


> I really wish she would leave this job. I think it is an unnecessary stress in her life.
> 
> Totally agree he would need to use discernment in deciding how to approach her.


----------



## turnera

chunderbunder said:


> BINGO. this job in that environment and with that partner is what ruined our marriage.
> 
> what do you guys think?


And....here you go again.

As SOON as you can find something ELSE to blame on your sh*tty marriage, you jump on it. Of COURSE it must be her job that turned her into an alpha male. It couldn't be that YOU don't know how to be an alpha male.

And you may want to try just forgetting Valentines Day is even a thing. She sure doesn't care, unless it's so she can show off whatever present you buy her. That's all you are any more - a beard so she can pretend to be a normal person. 

You have no marriage, cb. She couldn't care LESS that you aren't interacting anymore, most likely, she is GLAD you're finally just leaving her alone. As soon as you realize that, you can start acting with some semblance of strength, as soon as you realize you CAN walk away, you can start interacting from a position of strength instead of neediness.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

When it comes to boss mare's you have to match her bossiness and trump it to gain her respect. ONLY *then* will she choose to submit her powers to yours.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Look CB you are probably doing this right.

Think of it this way - the old CB's approach didn't work, right? The new approach isn't working any worse, is it? Maybe you had a few more conversations but those good things were outweighed by the constant disrespect where you ended up looking like a whiney b*tch just because you wanted her attention.

The next step is this. You do this some more, and you get angry. Not resentful which is too enmeshed in hurt and self pity. You get mad. 

You think "hey I'm a decent guy - I deserve a wife that respects me!" NOT "please, please HELP me get her to RESPECT me!". See the difference? The latter is a desperate plea from a broken-hearted guy who is longing to see his old wife come back. The former is a "complete" man who - internally - KNOWS he deserves respect! He - internally - KNOWS he is a worthy man.

See the transition? BE that guy. Fake it till you make it. Think John Wayne, Vic Morrow, Clint Eastwood. NOT Allen Alda, Woody Allen. Old school guys that were - just guys. They NEVER sought external validation - BUT they would dump any woman who disrespected them. "Frankly my dear - I don't give a damm!"

Make sure you have a safe place at least daily and probably more - like the bathroom - and regroup and gather your thoughts and center yourself. Disentangle those negative emotions from your image of yourself. Picture those men - what would they do?

Btw they were always the heros, right? Even when they were killing people and breaking rules. They conveyed honor, conviction, strength. That's who you should be.


----------



## cinnabomb

so this is my question to you. its not like she just comes home and starts yelling at me. nothing like that. but her temper can be set off by little things so in her mind its always justified. like an example....one morning i was sick, exhausted from lack of sleep etc, and she always handles morning baby duties. but instead of letting me sleep and rest, she brought the baby right into the bed with me at 6am and was talking loudly with baby and letting baby slam the door, bang on things etc. it was incredibly inconsiderate....like do you not know im right fkin here??? or do you not even care???

so i said calmly...why did you let baby make so much noise like that? im sick and im exhausted. (i sort of deferred it to baby, although she was being loud too). so she then loses her temper loudly saying "YOU KNOW, IM HERE, TAKING CARE OF BABY, EVERY MORNING AT 6AM, AND BREASFEEDING AND CHANGING, AND FEEDING, ETC). just completely losing it. this is a VERY typical example of what goes on in this house. she will do something really inconsiderate, like leave a mess for me to clean up, etc, and when I say something about it, she loses her temper and throws it in my face how much she does for our baby. meanwhile i have done EVERYTHING else for us for 10+ years, and still do. 

so in a situation like this, where SHE is the one who actually feels criticized, or attacked, loses her temper, but justifies it in her mind....how do I deal with that? I try to be rational with her, not raising my voice, etc. I try to explain to her in the way that MC taught us...like "honey I felt hurt when you left that mess for me to clean". blah blah. but this doesnt sound like what you guys are all recommending....please tell me how you would specifically handle this. 




TheTruthHurts said:


> Look CB you are probably doing this right.
> 
> Think of it this way - the old CB's approach didn't work, right? The new approach isn't working any worse, is it? Maybe you had a few more conversations but those good things were outweighed by the constant disrespect where you ended up looking like a whiney b*tch just because you wanted her attention.
> 
> The next step is this. You do this some more, and you get angry. Not resentful which is too enmeshed in hurt and self pity. You get mad.
> 
> You think "hey I'm a decent guy - I deserve a wife that respects me!" NOT "please, please HELP me get her to RESPECT me!". See the difference? The latter is a desperate plea from a broken-hearted guy who is longing to see his old wife come back. The former is a "complete" man who - internally - KNOWS he deserves respect! He - internally - KNOWS he is a worthy man.
> 
> See the transition? BE that guy. Fake it till you make it. Think John Wayne, Vic Morrow, Clint Eastwood. NOT Allen Alda, Woody Allen. Old school guys that were - just guys. They NEVER sought external validation - BUT they would dump any woman who disrespected them. "Frankly my dear - I don't give a damm!"
> 
> Make sure you have a safe place at least daily and probably more - like the bathroom - and regroup and gather your thoughts and center yourself. Disentangle those negative emotions from your image of yourself. Picture those men - what would they do?
> 
> Btw they were always the heros, right? Even when they were killing people and breaking rules. They conveyed honor, conviction, strength. That's who you should be.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I would stop doing all that stuff that over the past ten years I feel resentful over. 

Hire it out.


----------



## jld

She has a baby. She is stressed. 

Maybe phrase it differently? "I would really appreciate if I could sleep alone in the room right now. I think I could get back to helping sooner that way."

I am sorry she is not more considerate. I think she is just very stressed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cinnabomb

see, this is why im confused. you guys are all telling me to be more of a man and not take any more $hit, but then you say phrase it nicer, which is what our MC advises. But based on what most of you have been recommending, I would think you would advise me to say "Wife, you are being inconsiderate. I wont tolerate this. Leave this room or Ill divorce you."

or something like that. im exaggerating a bit to make a point....but im confused as hell now. I thought you all told me to stand up for myself, be strong, firm, assertive, when she loses her temper at me????




jld said:


> She has a baby. She is stressed.
> 
> Maybe phrase it differently? "I would really appreciate if I could sleep alone in the room right now. I think I could get back to helping sooner that way."
> 
> I am sorry she is not more considerate. I think she is just very stressed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> see, this is why im confused. you guys are all telling me to be more of a man and not take any more $hit, but then you say phrase it nicer, which is what our MC advises. But based on what most of you have been recommending, I would think you would advise me to say "Wife, you are being inconsiderate. I wont tolerate this. Leave this room or Ill divorce you."
> 
> or something like that. im exaggerating a bit to make a point....but im confused as hell now. I thought you all told me to stand up for myself, be strong, firm, assertive, when she loses her temper at me????


I am not saying what the others are saying. I am more along the lines of what your counselor is saying.

And I think the Leave the room advice is terrible.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> Chunder, on the respect front. My horse, Sherman, is alpha in his pasture with 14 other horses. He is one of the most effective alphas I've ever seen. What stands out to me is he can be half way across a 30 acre pasture and horses standing up at the barn will part the seas when he's still that far out. He *expects* to be respected and maintains a presence about him. He's benevolent, but *as soon as* another horse is non responsive to his leadership he is *swift* to bite, kick or ram that non responsive horse. Timing is everything. And no, we are not horses, but I find the concepts crossover to a high degree.


I had a stud reach over a corral rail and take a chunk out to of my shoulder when I was 17. After I got back from the doctor with twelve stitches, I solved his Alpha attitude with a rake handle. My dad got pissed when he saw his fave stallion sporting big goose-eggs on his forehead, and I lost my truck for a month. 

But that stallion never bit me again. He feared me from that day on.

I'm not saying OP should beat his wife, but sometimes it takes going out on a limb and taking extreme measures to show her he will not be abused or taken advantage of.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> I had a stud reach over a corral rail and take a chunk out to of my shoulder when I was 17. After I got back from the doctor with twelve stitches, I solved his Alpha attitude with a rake handle. My dad got pissed when he saw his fave stallion sporting big goose-eggs on his forehead, and I lost my truck for a month.
> 
> But that stallion never bit me again. He feared me from that day on.


And if you had allowed him to be that disrespectful going forward he could have killed you. And yet by you holding that line... he probably loved you for it.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> And if you had allowed him to be that disrespectful going forward he could have killed you. And yet by you holding that line... he probably loved you for it.


Maybe. He was actually a well mannered riding horse, but we had a filly in season across the way and he was charged up. I made the mistake of not paying attention. You always stay vigilant around studs. I broke that rule and I paid for it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Maybe. He was actually a well mannered riding horse, but we had a filly in season across the way and he was charged up. I made the mistake of not paying attention. You always stay vigilant around studs. I broke that rule and I paid for it.


I've seen my Sherman react to a heavy hand of correction with fascination and affection.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> I've seen my Sherman react to a heavy hand of correction with fascination and affection.


Heh heh...:laugh:

Horses are odd creatures. OP's wife is definitely a lead mare. A lead mare will torment a lead stallion to no end if he's not making the grade.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Heh heh...:laugh:
> 
> Horses are odd creatures. OP's wife is definitely a lead mare. A lead mare will torment a lead stallion to no end if he's not making the grade.


I don't think she is trying to torment him. I think she is trying to survive.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Heh heh...:laugh:
> 
> Horses are odd creatures. OP's wife is definitely a lead mare. A lead mare will torment a lead stallion to no end if he's not making the grade.


That's what I'm seeing. She moved up in the pecking order and the only way he will gain the respect he once had with her is to change his approach in a way that places him at the top of the heap.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I don't think she is trying to torment him. I think she is trying to survive.


Well, if she keeps it up she will be surviving on her own pretty soon. 

He can share raising the kids without being married to her. She doesn't need a husband. She needs an Alice.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> That's what I'm seeing. She moved up in the pecking order and the only way he will gain the respect he once had with her is to change his approach in a way that places him at the top of the heap.


Or he gets chased off by a stronger stud...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Or he gets chased off by a stronger stud...


Exactly.


----------



## jld

But he would not be the father of her child. I think that has value to her.

Poor woman. The things that are said about her here, where she has no way of defending herself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> But he would not be the father of her child. I think that has value to her.
> 
> Poor woman. The things that are said about her here, where she has no way of defending herself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She can value his fatherhood from a distance. According to him the high goddess no longer values him as a husband. I don't think he is exaggerating about that. 

And yeah....every thread on TAM is one sided. Every single one. It is what it is. I'm sure if she came on here and posted, OP would look like a doosh....


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> She can value his fatherhood from a distance. According to him the high goddess no longer values him as a husband. I don't think he is exaggerating about that.
> 
> And yeah....every thread on TAM is one sided. Every single one. It is what it is. I'm sure if she came on here and posted, OP would look like a doosh....


OP, have you asked her to come on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RoseAglow

Hi Cinnabomb, you're getting a ton of great advice about the need to develop emotional strength. I'm going to throw a few thoughts out based on this post:



cinnabomb said:


> BINGO. this job in that environment and with that partner is what ruined our marriage. however, she loves her job. its not stress to her. because she is good at it, is paid a lot there, is well respected, rubs elbows with A-list celebrities everyday, and is totally validated for being aggressive, demanding, even hostile. sort of hard to compete with that, seeing that she is in THAT environment up to 10 hours a day and she is with me barely 2 waking hours of the day.


I agree with you that it is going to be extremely, if not outright impossible, for you to compete with her job. 

She loves her job. She probably feels very good- competent and powerful- at work. She likely gets a lot of self-identification from her work. 

It's given her a new life, yes? It's a lucrative, glamorous life. 

The challenge is that she is getting an enormous dose of "Feels Good" from her job (and probably also from the guy.) Its very hard to compete against a flow of external validation and positivity in the face of real life marital stuff. It means the marriage has to be very good, or else the person tends to hide off in work and avoid the family. Historically it's the man who does this, but now women have the opportunity as well...



> In the last month we havent even had a single conversation. not one. not one conversation of how was your day, blah blah. the only communication at all is about our baby...or maybe..."what plans do we have this weekend?". but when we are with friend, she hangs with the other moms and me with the dads. we literally have no interaction or relationship. it sucks.


I am really sorry- that does suck, and it sounds very lonely. 

I suspect that on her end, you are just not really part of her new, interesting, challenging life. You're not (currently) in her mind, her thoughts are elsewhere. 



> and im trying to read those books and listen to you guys but I dont feel like I am doing this right, because all I am doing is basically just ignoring her, or rather not inititiating anything with her.
> 
> I just do my own thing and she does hers....every single day. this isnt a marriage. the worst part is she doesnt even seem to care. like the way she is behaving is as if this is what she wants. a husband who stays out of her way?


I think people are trying to encourage you to do the things that make you feel good, and to release any expectations you have for her. Get emotional independence, so that your feelings and happiness aren't based on what she does or doesn't do. 

Another way of saying the same thing is, don't take her actions (or lack thereof) personally. 

It's easier said than done, but it's important for your own mental health.



> its confusing actually. on one hand, she doesnt seem to care when im not around. she never utters the words i missed you or anything like that. but then on the other hand she will be like "are you to give me a kiss too?". the truth is I dont even want to. im still full of resentment of how much she has hurt me. and I am confused about how to act around her.


It's understandable that you are hurt and resentful. You've basically become persona non grata in your relationship. 

However, staying hurt and resentful is hurtful to you. If you believe that she hurt you, you are the victim. 

If you change your thinking to, "I don't like this", you can make changes to your life to improve your well-being. You don't have to depend on your wife. You can't change your wife or make her pay attention to you, but you can look at your life and decide to add things in that you enjoy. Invite her to do things that you will both enjoy, and if she goes, great! If not, do it own your own. 

Its sounds like semantics, but it's more an issue of ownership. Let her own her bad behavior, and you remove any assumed intent on her end. Just decide if it's ok with you or not, and if not, make a change. (Easier said than done, but important for your mental health.)



> I'm trying to find a balance but not sure what it is. im getting really tired of seeing her bury herself in shows with her headphones on, and watching her eat unhealthy and get fatter, and then watching her be dissmissive to me....


Try to catch her before she puts her headphones on- ask if she wants to watch something together. Find things you will both like and invite her to watch, listen, dance, play. 

If she says no, and she probably will, smile and say ok, i miss having fun with you, but it's up to you of course, and go do something else with a smile. Don't make it personal. Don't pout, say it hurts you, etc. just accept that she doesn't want to do it and go do something else.

It is very important that you are positive and pleasant. I think you should drop the weight issue, at least for the time being. She is never going to want to do anything with you if she just gets a litany of complaints when she does put down the headphones and listens to you. 



> like an example was valentines day. i am traveling this week so v day would have been hard to do, but I said I think we can can do it on the night of the 11th. she goes "lets just postpone it a week." i say, that doesnt feel right to wait a week, i think i can make it work. she is dissmissive and says "lets just wait a week so you can focus on your work." i just gave in. the truth is I didnt care THAT much when we do it...if I did I would voice it, but it annoyed me that she just makes a decision and thinks she is the final say on everything. this is how it is at her job but im tired of it at home. maybe she was trying to be helpful....i think she was...she knew i would be burdened by stress....but she never asked "what do you think?" like she used to...or "whatever you decide" which she used to. shes so bossy now its a huge turnoff.


This paragraph is the reason I wrote this post.

The blue text : in my world, this isn't her being bossy. She is assertive. My husband and I have these kinds of conversations all the time. I don't consider her being dismissive, she simply offered up a different solution. It's negotiation. 

However, you didn't want to negotiate. You actually didn't care which day you celebrated, it's not important to you. 

What you seem to care about is that she didn't just go with YOUR suggestion. Then you blame HER for YOUR decision to just go with it. You acknowledge that she was being thoughtful, thinking it would be less stressful for you, if you celebrated after work. She was basically problem-solving, but you didn't add anything after her suggestion. She had the last word because you let it lie. Yet you are cranky with her for "being bossy" which is just blaming it on her.

The reason I believe this is the case is because you followed it up with the green text . She used to just let you decide. She's not willing to just let decide anymore. She uses her voice now and has a say. You call it her being "bossy" and "dismissive."

It's no wonder she puts her headphones on and tunes you out. Not too many modern women would take that kind of behavior seriously. 



> ,what do you guys think?


I think if we asked her for her opinion, she'd say that she's outgrown you. (Not saying I agree, just guessing at her perspective.) You are easily upset, and one of your primary complaints is that she's getting too fat for you to be attracted to her. Meanwhile, she is moving up and out into world. I think it's irrelevant to her whether or not you think she is too fat, and she's shown you in several ways that she doesn't care what you think about her diet. It might annoy her. I really doubt it creates any positive feelings for you. 

She has become a mover and a shaker. She gets a ton of validation from others in her new working world, and doesn't seek or need it from you. But you are trying with all your might to get validation from her. It's normal for us to get validation from our spouse, but she has changed things up. 

You desperately wish you could have your old life back, but it can't happen. The past doesn't return for any of us. She might come to treat you more kindly and respectfully, but I doubt she'll ever just follow your lead again. She's unlikely to ever want to go back to being dependent and not having her own power, her own career. She'll want to use her talents out in the world, now that she's developed and has been recognized for them. 

I think you need to ditch your MC if you're bring directed to tell her that you're chronically getting hurt emotionally. Big things hurt: infidelity, infertility, disease. Being ignored or dismissed is hurtful, sure, but i don't think it helps you to communicate in those words. Rather, being ignored or dismissed is disrespectful, disappointing, unfortunate. Lose the Victim Thinking where she does things to you, and get into Empowered where you observe her behavior, and make decisions accordingly. 

I'd ditch mc and go for IC. You have a long list of reading, but if you haven't yet, I recommend reading Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs. They will give you a map for removing your behaviors that shut your wife down and adding behaviors that could open her back up. If you are able to show a big overall improvement, hopefully she'll get on-board to improve her behavior as well!

I realize that I'm putting all the onus on you in my posts. There's a lot your wife could do to make things better! But, you're the one posting. And, she sounds significantly checked out. I'm surprised that people haven't jumped all over her male work confident- maybe I missed some sort of resolution, like he's not into girls, somewhere in the thread. 

I do feel for you. You're in a terrible spot and it's easy to see how your self-esteem could get way knocked down. It's often said in TAM that you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it, and I think you might get to that spot in yours. But I strongly suggest that you work on getting yourself together emotionally so that you can show her that you're a strong, attractive spouse before making that play.


----------



## JohnA

Bear in my her job is very here today gone tomorrow. A lot of people just disappear overnight in this type of environment. Think publishing, sports, media, etc. A lot of her focus on the job is based on fear. You need to carve out a life for yourself and child without her. 

RoseAlgow has a good point of about her being assertive. Consider it.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I agree with roseaglow.

We never told you to voice your hurt feelings. I have one poster blocked who may have though - but from my perspective no one did.

Your MC is trying to help you communicate more directly and is probably a woman. That is a worthwhile objective but the content (your victim feelings) is not appropriate in your circumstances.

You continue to set her up to disappoint you by not thinking and feeling the way you do. Instead accept that you two value different things and that's ok. Why make her like what you like or be hurt when she doesn't? Covert contracts all over - reread about them.

My W and I have a 30+ year relationship and we are absolute opposites. It's good because we challenge ourselves all the time. Note that I didn't say we challenge each other. We both think it's our job to look out for the other and watch for new needs and desires, and since we're both very considerate of each other it works. If one of us got too resentful and started to lash out we would be in the same place you are. Then we'd each have to decide if we want to accommodate the other - if either shows (note I didn't say "says") they don't, then I suppose we'd be done. You can't make anyone love or respect you. You have to want to make a marriage work - always. If this sounds clinical that's because this is the attitude you have at 40,000 feet - a clear view of the total relationship. It's healthy.


----------



## rachaelm

cinnabomb said:


> so this is my question to you. its not like she just comes home and starts yelling at me. nothing like that. but her temper can be set off by little things so in her mind its always justified. like an example....one morning i was sick, exhausted from lack of sleep etc, and she always handles morning baby duties. but instead of letting me sleep and rest, she brought the baby right into the bed with me at 6am and was talking loudly with baby and letting baby slam the door, bang on things etc. it was incredibly inconsiderate....like do you not know im right fkin here??? or do you not even care???
> 
> so i said calmly...why did you let baby make so much noise like that? im sick and im exhausted. (i sort of deferred it to baby, although she was being loud too). so she then loses her temper loudly saying "YOU KNOW, IM HERE, TAKING CARE OF BABY, EVERY MORNING AT 6AM, AND BREASFEEDING AND CHANGING, AND FEEDING, ETC). just completely losing it. this is a VERY typical example of what goes on in this house. she will do something really inconsiderate, like leave a mess for me to clean up, etc, and when I say something about it, she loses her temper and throws it in my face how much she does for our baby. meanwhile i have done EVERYTHING else for us for 10+ years, and still do.
> 
> so in a situation like this, where SHE is the one who actually feels criticized, or attacked, loses her temper, but justifies it in her mind....how do I deal with that? I try to be rational with her, not raising my voice, etc. I try to explain to her in the way that MC taught us...like "honey I felt hurt when you left that mess for me to clean". blah blah. but this doesnt sound like what you guys are all recommending....please tell me how you would specifically handle this.


Is she always the one up in the morning with the baby? Are you just assuming that she wants to be one with the baby in the morning? Why don't you try surprising her and start taking over kid duty some mornings?


----------



## bfree

CB, jld has her own core advice and perspective. It's not very similar to what myself and others have suggested but it's a valuable perspective to listen to. Jld will probably be able to capture much of what your wife is thinking. She's very good at tapping into those feelings. She's the "wife-whisperer." If I were you I would listen to what she is saying. However, just because she is able to empathize with your wife that doesn't mean her advice to you is gospel. Let me give you a quick example. Sometimes my wife can get a little over exuberant. Oh, who am I kidding, she occasionally gets worked up about even the smallest things. Just because I know that I have a better perspective. That doesn't mean I follow her down the rabbit hole. When she gets worked up I have to stay grounded and usually call her out on her over exuberance. If I were to sympathize with her or placate her by being more understanding she'd spiral up even more. So listen to jld to understand your wife's thought process but your interactions with her should reflect your own strength and confidence. That's what she'll (hopefully) respond to.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I have JLD blocked because her advice to men isn't what they need to DO. It is what the W might be thinking.

Two VERY different things. I'm a goal oriented guy. When I encounter someone I disagree with at work I want to know how they think. Then I use that knowledge to get them out of my way.

I suggest you do the same. Understand your wife but don't act like a weak or moody woman. Act like a strong man with firm boundaries and a strong sense of self. 

If your W is disrespectful it's good to understand why. But there is no need to put up with it or even "fix" her.


----------



## jld

Whenever I see people say they have me blocked, I have this overwhelming urge to post, "BOO!" to them.


----------



## RoseAglow

I love jld being "the wife whisperer"! That's great and I think it's true!


----------



## jld

RoseAglow said:


> I love jld being "the wife whisperer"! That's great and I think it's true!


Thanks, Rose. I actually disagree, myself, but I take it as a compliment, just the same.


----------



## RoseAglow

jld said:


> Thanks, Rose. I actually disagree, myself, but I take it as a compliment, just the same.


I think you are able to convey what many of the women who are being discussed on these boards (as opposed to those of us who are posting) are likely feeling. I've seen quite a number of times where the OP said "That is what my wife told me!"


----------



## jld

RoseAglow said:


> I think you are able to convey what many of the women who are being discussed on these boards (as opposed to those of us who are posting) are likely feeling. I've seen quite a number of times where the OP said "That is what my wife told me!"


Lol, good enough then! Happy to be of service!


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Thanks, Rose. I actually disagree, myself, but I take it as a compliment, just the same.


It was totally meant as a compliment. As much as you sometimes drive me crazy your posts are invaluable on TAM.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> It was totally meant as a compliment. As much as you sometimes drive me crazy your posts are invaluable on TAM.


Thanks, bfree.


----------



## Celes

jld said:


> I don't think she is trying to torment him. I think she is trying to survive.


I agree. It's obvious to me OP deeply lacks appreciation of anything his wife does. Instead, he's hyper sensitive and makes everything about him and picks at his wife for everything. No wonder she can't take his criticism anymore. If my husband kept "honey this" and "honey that" to me (what is usually referred to as nagging), while I worked a hard job and still took care of all baby duties, I'd lose it too. 

Getting upset he can't criticize her for her weight? Getting upset she woke him up at 6 am when she is the one up every morning taking care of a baby with no help from him? Getting upset she leaves a mess? She works a hard full time job and takes care of the baby when she gets home, poor woman must be exhausted.


----------



## Chaparral

Do you have access to her computer, texts, phone etc.?

She wants a hug and kiss? Tell her to hug her phone.

I still think her relationship to her partner is getting short shrift here.


----------



## cinnabomb

thank you for the advice. i really appreciate your thoughts. the only thing i want to mention is that the valentines example was not a great one but just the most recent i could think of. most examples are more baby related and even though i believe strongly about something, she is very dismissive and if i push back she gets very angry and will start being harsh and abrasive, even loud and aggressive. so usually, i dont fight for my point. keeping the peace is just easier....




RoseAglow said:


> Hi Cinnabomb, you're getting a ton of great advice about the need to develop emotional strength. I'm going to throw a few thoughts out based on this post:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you that it is going to be extremely, if not outright impossible, for you to compete with her job.
> 
> She loves her job. She probably feels very good- competent and powerful- at work. She likely gets a lot of self-identification from her work.
> 
> It's given her a new life, yes? It's a lucrative, glamorous life.
> 
> The challenge is that she is getting an enormous dose of "Feels Good" from her job (and probably also from the guy.) Its very hard to compete against a flow of external validation and positivity in the face of real life marital stuff. It means the marriage has to be very good, or else the person tends to hide off in work and avoid the family. Historically it's the man who does this, but now women have the opportunity as well...
> 
> 
> 
> I am really sorry- that does suck, and it sounds very lonely.
> 
> I suspect that on her end, you are just not really part of her new, interesting, challenging life. You're not (currently) in her mind, her thoughts are elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> I think people are trying to encourage you to do the things that make you feel good, and to release any expectations you have for her. Get emotional independence, so that your feelings and happiness aren't based on what she does or doesn't do.
> 
> Another way of saying the same thing is, don't take her actions (or lack thereof) personally.
> 
> It's easier said than done, but it's important for your own mental health.
> 
> 
> 
> It's understandable that you are hurt and resentful. You've basically become persona non grata in your relationship.
> 
> However, staying hurt and resentful is hurtful to you. If you believe that she hurt you, you are the victim.
> 
> If you change your thinking to, "I don't like this", you can make changes to your life to improve your well-being. You don't have to depend on your wife. You can't change your wife or make her pay attention to you, but you can look at your life and decide to add things in that you enjoy. Invite her to do things that you will both enjoy, and if she goes, great! If not, do it own your own.
> 
> Its sounds like semantics, but it's more an issue of ownership. Let her own her bad behavior, and you remove any assumed intent on her end. Just decide if it's ok with you or not, and if not, make a change. (Easier said than done, but important for your mental health.)
> 
> 
> 
> Try to catch her before she puts her headphones on- ask if she wants to watch something together. Find things you will both like and invite her to watch, listen, dance, play.
> 
> If she says no, and she probably will, smile and say ok, i miss having fun with you, but it's up to you of course, and go do something else with a smile. Don't make it personal. Don't pout, say it hurts you, etc. just accept that she doesn't want to do it and go do something else.
> 
> It is very important that you are positive and pleasant. I think you should drop the weight issue, at least for the time being. She is never going to want to do anything with you if she just gets a litany of complaints when she does put down the headphones and listens to you.
> 
> 
> 
> This paragraph is the reason I wrote this post.
> 
> The blue text : in my world, this isn't her being bossy. She is assertive. My husband and I have these kinds of conversations all the time. I don't consider her being dismissive, she simply offered up a different solution. It's negotiation.
> 
> However, you didn't want to negotiate. You actually didn't care which day you celebrated, it's not important to you.
> 
> What you seem to care about is that she didn't just go with YOUR suggestion. Then you blame HER for YOUR decision to just go with it. You acknowledge that she was being thoughtful, thinking it would be less stressful for you, if you celebrated after work. She was basically problem-solving, but you didn't add anything after her suggestion. She had the last word because you let it lie. Yet you are cranky with her for "being bossy" which is just blaming it on her.
> 
> The reason I believe this is the case is because you followed it up with the green text . She used to just let you decide. She's not willing to just let decide anymore. She uses her voice now and has a say. You call it her being "bossy" and "dismissive."
> 
> It's no wonder she puts her headphones on and tunes you out. Not too many modern women would take that kind of behavior seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> I think if we asked her for her opinion, she'd say that she's outgrown you. (Not saying I agree, just guessing at her perspective.) You are easily upset, and one of your primary complaints is that she's getting too fat for you to be attracted to her. Meanwhile, she is moving up and out into world. I think it's irrelevant to her whether or not you think she is too fat, and she's shown you in several ways that she doesn't care what you think about her diet. It might annoy her. I really doubt it creates any positive feelings for you.
> 
> She has become a mover and a shaker. She gets a ton of validation from others in her new working world, and doesn't seek or need it from you. But you are trying with all your might to get validation from her. It's normal for us to get validation from our spouse, but she has changed things up.
> 
> You desperately wish you could have your old life back, but it can't happen. The past doesn't return for any of us. She might come to treat you more kindly and respectfully, but I doubt she'll ever just follow your lead again. She's unlikely to ever want to go back to being dependent and not having her own power, her own career. She'll want to use her talents out in the world, now that she's developed and has been recognized for them.
> 
> I think you need to ditch your MC if you're bring directed to tell her that you're chronically getting hurt emotionally. Big things hurt: infidelity, infertility, disease. Being ignored or dismissed is hurtful, sure, but i don't think it helps you to communicate in those words. Rather, being ignored or dismissed is disrespectful, disappointing, unfortunate. Lose the Victim Thinking where she does things to you, and get into Empowered where you observe her behavior, and make decisions accordingly.
> 
> I'd ditch mc and go for IC. You have a long list of reading, but if you haven't yet, I recommend reading Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs. They will give you a map for removing your behaviors that shut your wife down and adding behaviors that could open her back up. If you are able to show a big overall improvement, hopefully she'll get on-board to improve her behavior as well!
> 
> I realize that I'm putting all the onus on you in my posts. There's a lot your wife could do to make things better! But, you're the one posting. And, she sounds significantly checked out. I'm surprised that people haven't jumped all over her male work confident- maybe I missed some sort of resolution, like he's not into girls, somewhere in the thread.
> 
> I do feel for you. You're in a terrible spot and it's easy to see how your self-esteem could get way knocked down. It's often said in TAM that you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it, and I think you might get to that spot in yours. But I strongly suggest that you work on getting yourself together emotionally so that you can show her that you're a strong, attractive spouse before making that play.


----------



## cinnabomb

yes she is. shes breastfeeding. i dont mind it sometimes and always try to help. but she really does love it. 



rachaelm said:


> Is she always the one up in the morning with the baby? Are you just assuming that she wants to be one with the baby in the morning? Why don't you try surprising her and start taking over kid duty some mornings?


----------



## cinnabomb

youre an idiot. read the whole thread. i have done 99% of the work in our relationship, life, house, etc. MY hard work and prudent savings put HER through school, gave her the $ and freedom to start her own company. and ive given nothing but unconditional love up until a few years ago. you dont have a goddamn clue what that is or what that means. i did EVERYTHING to make her life better ad make her smile. you can never understand this. leave this thread...seriously. 



Celes said:


> I agree. It's obvious to me OP deeply lacks appreciation of anything his wife does. Instead, he's hyper sensitive and makes everything about him and picks at his wife for everything. No wonder she can't take his criticism anymore. If my husband kept "honey this" and "honey that" to me (what is usually referred to as nagging), while I worked a hard job and still took care of all baby duties, I'd lose it too.
> 
> Getting upset he can't criticize her for her weight? Getting upset she woke him up at 6 am when she is the one up every morning taking care of a baby with no help from him? Getting upset she leaves a mess? She works a hard full time job and takes care of the baby when she gets home, poor woman must be exhausted.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

CB, have you seen my ACOA thread? I see patterns in your words that I see described in some of the articles I've posted. I'm digging back into it for myself and started a thread on it.

Read the article on I want to be treated well and see if you spot some patterns in yourself.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

cinnabomb said:


> youre an idiot. read the whole thread. i have done 99% of the work in our relationship, life, house, etc. MY hard work and prudent savings put HER through school, gave her the $ and freedom to start her own company. and ive given nothing but unconditional love up until a few years ago. you dont have a goddamn clue what that is or what that means. i did EVERYTHING to make her life better ad make her smile. you can never understand this. leave this thread...seriously.


Wow.

Do you talk to her that way when she is critical of you?

And you wonder why she's not into you.

I suggest you re-acquaint yourself with the victim triangle. You went from rescuer to persecutor to victim, all in a few sentences.


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> yes she is. shes breastfeeding. i dont mind it sometimes and always try to help. but she really does love it.


Breastfeeding is a wonderful investment in a child's future. I think it is great that you are supportive of it.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> *even though i believe strongly about something*, she is very dismissive and if i push back she gets very angry and will start being harsh and abrasive, even loud and aggressive. so usually, i dont fight for my point. *keeping the peace is just easier..*..


And THAT is why you're in the mess you're in.

What kind of woman wants a man who just gives up on what he wants just to shut her up?

None.


----------



## 2ntnuf

What is your reason for staying with her? I think it's because you have invested so much, you thought you would receive a return for it that you haven't yet realized. 

You started out loving her and now just feel like she is an income source and provider. From what I have read at TAM, most women don't like being a provider, but a partner and equal. 

Your wife feels this and knows it. She is also likely doing too much at work and needs a strong man at home to be able to kick back and not feel like she has to take charge. That's a tall order because you have to be as good at or better than she believes she is at taking charge and getting things done.

This would also likely transfer into sex. She needs a man to take charge in and out of the bedroom, know what he wants, expect he will get it, and take responsibility for doing the proper things to get what he wants. He will not settle, but knows he is worth more to others and will without question, seek out what he knows he needs, leaving what will not bring reward for his hard work. 

You don't value yourself enough, in my opinion. At least, you don't value yourself and expect reward in the proper areas. I think you need to speak with a counselor to help you get a handle on what you want. It may well be way too late to make your current marriage work and the counselor knows this. The counselor may also know you aren't ready to accept that truth. 

You have been given good advice. I just don't think you are able to grasp it, because you want what you thought your covert contract was going to get you.


----------



## bandit.45

Hoooooooooooo! Wow!


There are some righteous people on this thread. Man, I thought I was harsh?!

I think you have it in you to stand up to her Cinnabomb, but you don't want to because you love her. I get it. You married a sweet thang and she turned into a shrew. Maybe the two of you have grown to the point where you are just no longer compatible. But I can tell you this, once a woman loses respect for her husband, there is no getting it back completely....ever. You can be Mr. Macho and stand toe to toe with her and not take her crap like Turnera says. That might work. But in the long run I don't think it will. I think your wife wrote you off long ago. 

And all that stuff you did for her at the beginning of the marriage? Doesn't mean squat to her. Women only remember the bad things their husbands do. She is the breadwinner now and in her mind that is all that matters. Add squealing kids to the mix and it just makes a bad situation worse. She is the queen bee and you are nothing but a drone. Your place in her life is roughly equal to the receptionist who answers the phone up front at her office. No....maybe she doesn't even regard you that much. 

Listen bro, I'm on your side, I really am. You are not going to get good advice on TAM for this situation, not with all these feminist harpies here dive-bombing you. Go to the No More Mister Nice Guy website, read the book and join the forum. Many of the members there have gone through very similar experience to yours and they can give you some good advice on how to stop making covert contracts and lead an emotionally independent life without your wife. It's a hairy forum loaded with testosterone. The guys there are not nice. Even I can't stick around for long there, but I like to visit every once in a while.


----------



## Celes

cinnabomb said:


> youre an idiot. read the whole thread. i have done 99% of the work in our relationship, life, house, etc. MY hard work and prudent savings put HER through school, gave her the $ and freedom to start her own company. and ive given nothing but unconditional love up until a few years ago. you dont have a goddamn clue what that is or what that means. i did EVERYTHING to make her life better ad make her smile. you can never understand this. leave this thread...seriously.


Do you always resort to insults when you don't like what you hear? In any case, I'm not an idiot. I can read between the lines. And your outburst just proved my point. Thanks for that.


----------



## bandit.45

Celes said:


> Do you always resort to insults when you don't like what you hear? In any case, I'm not an idiot. I can read between the lines. And your outburst just proved my point. Thanks for that.


Don't be so self righteous. You baited him. He was just too emotional to dodge your goad. 

It's bad enough his wife has to sh!t test him, it's really pathetic when the people on this board resort to it.


----------



## Celes

bandit.45 said:


> Don't be so self righteous. You baited him. He was just too emotional to dodge your goad.
> 
> It's bad enough his wife has to sh!t test him, it's really pathetic when the people on this board resort to it.


I offered my opinion, how is that **** testing? In my opinion, he's emotionally unstable and looking to take out frustration on his wife. He does 99% of the work? So going to school, starting your own company, being the breadwinner and taking care of all baby duties counts for nothing? She didn't do any work at all to make their lives better, seriously? His biggest complaint in the thread has been that his wife can't take his criticism. Who wants to be criticized all the time?

So is this how this forum works? Let's attack any posters who don't agree with the majority? Sorry, I live in the adult world. I don't believe that being "too emotional" is an excuse to insult people. But I can see why there might be so many marital problems for the people who do.


----------



## bandit.45

Celes said:


> So is this how this forum works? Let's attack any posters who don't agree with the majority? Sorry, I live in the adult world. I don't believe that being "too emotional" is an excuse to insult people. But I can see why there might be so many marital problems for the people who do.


Um.....actually I'm the one in the minority. Most of the posters here have been echoing what you are saying. Im one of the few who is siding with OP. 

I'm trying to figure out how you all came to conclusion that the OP is emotionally unstable. His posts to me seem quite lucid. If he has done anything wrong is that he has been too damn needy. I will agree on that. That is why I recommended he go to the NMMNG site and hang there for a while. He will get a lot more out of that site than he will here.


----------



## turnera

bandit.45 said:


> Women only remember the bad things their husbands do.


I'd just like to point out that, while I agree with the rest of your post, this just isn't true. The only reason I'm still WITH my husband is that I remember the good things he's done, and I keep waiting to see those again.


----------



## AliceA

It's very telling when someone gets on this forum and says they've done 99% of the work in their relationship, after telling everyone how their spouse is extremely sensitive to criticism. IMO, those things are usually linked. I've heard someone say straight out that they don't argue with people who argue with them, then watched them in action as they spoke to another person with such incredible malice that I was in shock, then went on to claim they had asked a 'simple question' and that the other person became angry for no reason...

Don't believe everything you read. Don't even believe everything you write necessarily. People fool themselves constantly.


----------



## Celes

bandit.45 said:


> Um.....actually I'm the one in the minority. Most of the posters here have been echoing what you are saying. Im one of the few who is siding with OP.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how you all came to conclusion that the OP is emotionally unstable. His posts to me seem quite lucid. If he has done anything wrong is that he has been too damn needy. I will agree on that. That is why I recommended he go to the NMMNG site and hang there for a while. He will get a lot more out of that site than he will here.


Hmm I guess it's a matter of perception, I've seen a lot of posts siding with OP and making his wife sound like a giant B. 

Why do I think he's emotionally unstable? For starters, he mentioned he was crying every day for 5 years. Second is his reaction to posters here who don't offer the kind of advice he wants. Third is the way he takes his wife's hate for criticism so personally. No one likes criticism all the time. He is upset he cannot make comments about his wife's weight. Most men would understand why their wife would be upset at that kind of criticism. They try to find ways to encourage their wife to lose weight without hurting their feelings. He takes it as some kind of personal attack though. And cries about it (apparently, literally).


----------



## AliceA

One thing people tell others on this forum constantly is that when you take on the responsibility of everything you possibly can in your relationship and deny your spouse the chance to take on some of that responsibility, you are making a rod of your own back. Most people with complaints on here about their spouse not contributing as much as they do have created their own problems. I'm not innocent of that myself, but it's all a learning curve.

It also shows arrogance in the spouse who "does it all". People do it because they don't think the other person is as good at those tasks as they are, then they say they did it all out of love because that sounds a lot better than, "I do it all because I think you're incompetent".

You say you did all of this so she could focus on her career, but now she has her career you don't want her to work so much. Well, what else is there really? You've groomed her to do nothing but work.


----------



## rachaelm

cinnabomb said:


> yes she is. shes breastfeeding. i dont mind it sometimes and always try to help. but she really does love it.


How old is the baby? Maybe some of this is just from the adjustment of motherhood. Was she this critical before the baby?


----------



## 2ntnuf

breeze said:


> One thing people tell others on this forum constantly is that when you take on the responsibility of everything you possibly can in your relationship and deny your spouse the chance to take on some of that responsibility, you are making a rod of your own back. Most people with complaints on here about their spouse not contributing as much as they do have created their own problems. I'm not innocent of that myself, but it's all a learning curve.
> 
> It also shows arrogance in the spouse who "does it all". People do it because they don't think the other person is as good at those tasks as they are, then they say they did it all out of love because that sounds a lot better than, "I do it all because I think you're incompetent".
> 
> You say you did all of this so she could focus on her career, but now she has her career you don't want her to work so much. Well, what else is there really? You've groomed her to do nothing but work.


Tend to agree with this.

That last paragraph sort of bugs me. I think he got himself into this by taking on all of the things he has, so that she could get her education and career going. I think he just figured he was going to reap the benefits with her and did not realize that she was changing fundamentally, or would change, until it was too late and he didn't know how to cope. 

I do see how you get he groomed her, but without further input from both sides, I don't think we can assess what she is feeling. She is obviously intelligent, if what he says is true. She is educated and knows she has power, intelligence, money, and the freedom backed by enforceable laws to do as she pleases. 

My guess is he didn't realize what he was getting himself into. I think his personal growth was stunted due to his promises to help her get her education, while her's grew by leaps and bounds with that education. 

I don't think it's one spouse's fault, but both and it doesn't read as intentional, though the frustration is very high and the amount of ground he has lost may never be regained. 

I wonder if that is truly the reality he is struggling with? Also, only dropping most or all of those chores and taking back his life and manhood, releasing himself from the promise's comfortable place and living again as a man who is also important, no matter what happens to his marriage, I think, is of the utmost importance.

Though he may lose all he worked for, I think it's just a formality. I think he's slowly lost it all over the time she was being educated and making a life for herself.

And, kudos to her for what she has done. I'm not saying either of them is wrong. They just grew apart and didn't realize it was this serious, until it was.


----------



## Celes

Here's my advice OP. First, get yourself to IC if you aren't already. You may be dealing with depression. Second, next time your wife does something that makes you want to say something, don't. Walk away and think about it. Go for a walk, go to another room, whatever. Then ask yourself, "Is this the hill I want to die on?". If you think hard on it and really believe it's a problem that should be addressed, then do so. If you figure it's something minor and not the hill you want to die on, let it go. And I mean for real, no resentment. 

Example, I mentioned in another thread my husband is former military and super efficient at everything. He's also picking at me for everything, from the way I drive to my cooking methods (PS he can't cook). Last week, he made an appointment for our very sick cat and asked me to take him. It was at 3:30 and I usually finish work at 5 or 6. I went to work extra early, worked through lunch, took the cat, got bit (poor guy hates the vet), drove 40 minutes in traffic only to be told it was the wrong day. Then drove 40 minutes back. When I called my husband, he didn't even apologize. I knew if I did that to him, I would never hear the end of it and I would have gotten a massive lecture about how I should have double checked. 

I was pissed and ready to fight. But on the drive home, forced myself to think on it. Was this the hill I wanted to die on? After everything he had been doing for the cat (that I brought into the relationship btw), taking him to the pet hospital when I had bronchitis and couldn't move, driving around getting different foods to get him to eat, going to 3 different Targets to find him a humidifier because he read it could help his respitory infection... I decided that no it wasn't the hill I wanted to die on and let it go. No he never apologized, but it's just not worth make a big deal over in the grand scheme of things. Now I just make a joke about it and poke fun at him about the time he sent me to the vet for no reason. 

What I'm saying is, try to think hard about the things that bother you first before you make problems about them. What your counselor said about how to bring up issues is fine, but try not to bring up every little thing and try not to get so offended when your partner makes mistakes (like leaving a mess or waking you up).


----------



## giddiot

breeze said:


> It's very telling when someone gets on this forum and says they've done 99% of the work in their relationship, after telling everyone how their spouse is extremely sensitive to criticism. IMO, those things are usually linked. I've heard someone say straight out that they don't argue with people who argue with them, then watched them in action as they spoke to another person with such incredible malice that I was in shock, then went on to claim they had asked a 'simple question' and that the other person became angry for no reason...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't believe everything you read. Don't even believe everything you write necessarily. People fool themselves constantly.



Don't believe everything you think.


----------



## AliceA

giddiot said:


> Don't believe everything you think.


Yeah, thought that was implied already because we write what we think.


----------



## AliceA

2ntnuf said:


> I do see how you get he groomed her, but without further input from both sides, I don't think we can assess what she is feeling. She is obviously intelligent, if what he says is true. She is educated and knows she has power, intelligence, money, and the freedom backed by enforceable laws to do as she pleases.
> 
> My guess is he didn't realize what he was getting himself into. I think his personal growth was stunted due to his promises to help her get her education, while her's grew by leaps and bounds with that education.


Just in response to the last, I think we can sort of see a little about how she is feeling. My take on it may be wrong, but here it is anyway. He took over everything, controlled everything from the get go. He even prides himself on taking over her family's interactions. People may think she grew by leaps and bounds because she studied but I don't think that's necessarily true. Sure, she might've become a higher earner, got a chance at a better job, but is she a better person? IMO, the biggest growth is stimulated by the people closest to you, not through your profession.

This might be her finally standing up to him controlling every aspect of her life. Maybe she's becoming so egocentric over her work because he's told her that's all she's good at for the entire marriage. "Go to work, that's all you can do, don't worry your pretty little head over anything else because I'm superman and we don't actually need you".



cinnabomb said:


> 3. She can often be dismissive to me. Especially with idea I have for our child. I will say, lets put her in the crib for a nap, or whatever, and she will just steamroll me and say "no". I dont really know how to deal with this. She is really used to getting her way and being the final say at her office, but I am not going to deal with that but dont know the best way to approach it. The next time I have an idea and she doesnt want to have a conversation about it and just says "no", how do I deal with it??


Now they have a child and when he tries to have input she is dismissive. Maybe it's protective. Maybe she's putting her foot down because she knows if she gives him an inch he will take a mile and then suddenly she would have no input into raising her own child. He would completely take over.

What most people see as loving I see as controlling. He hasn't treated her like an equal, not by a long shot.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinnabomb View Post 

3. She can often be dismissive to me. Especially with idea I have for our child. I will say, lets put her in the crib for a nap, or whatever, and she will just steamroll me and say "no". I dont really know how to deal with this. She is really used to getting her way and being the final say at her office, but I am not going to deal with that but dont know the best way to approach it. The next time I have an idea and she doesnt want to have a conversation about it and just says "no", how do I deal with it??
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you ask? If it's time for the baby to go to bed, you just take the baby there and make him/her comfortable. Take some responsibility for being the father. I'm sure you do, but this post of your's seems like you have to have permission from your wife to put the child to bed.


----------



## AliceA

2ntnuf said:


> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by cinnabomb View Post
> 
> 3. She can often be dismissive to me. Especially with idea I have for our child. I will say, lets put her in the crib for a nap, or whatever, and she will just steamroll me and say "no". I dont really know how to deal with this. She is really used to getting her way and being the final say at her office, but I am not going to deal with that but dont know the best way to approach it. The next time I have an idea and she doesnt want to have a conversation about it and just says "no", how do I deal with it??
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Why do you ask? If it's time for the baby to go to bed, you just take the baby there and make him/her comfortable. Take some responsibility for being the father. I'm sure you do, but this post of your's seems like you have to have permission from your wife to put the child to bed.


When you're dealing with a breastfeeding mother who's trying to sort out some type of schedule, you don't just waltz in and take over.


----------



## 2ntnuf

breeze said:


> When you're dealing with a breastfeeding mother who's trying to sort out some type of schedule, you don't just waltz in and take over.


breeze, I realize you are upset with my posts. I haven't tried to disparage you. 

What can I do to get you to allow me to have an opinion that might be different from your own?

I would like to see the post where he said she is breastfeeding when he asks her if he may take the baby for a nap. Do you know where it is? The one I quoted doesn't mention breastfeeding. Thanks.


----------



## AliceA

2ntnuf said:


> breeze, I realize you are upset with my posts. I haven't tried to disparage you.
> 
> What can I do to get you to allow me to have an opinion that might be different from your own?
> 
> I would like to see the post where he said she is breastfeeding when he asks her if he may take the baby for a nap. Do you know where it is? The one I quoted doesn't mention breastfeeding. Thanks.


I'm not upset by your posts, just offering my own opinion in response. I don't fluff about because I'm short on time, not because I'm narky. Feel free to have an opinion.

I didn't say she was breastfeeding specifically when he wants to put a baby down for a nap, just saying, as a woman who has breastfed two children, schedules are important.


----------



## 2ntnuf

breeze said:


> I'm not upset by your posts, just offering my own opinion in response. I don't fluff about because I'm short on time, not because I'm narky. Feel free to have an opinion.
> 
> I didn't say she was breastfeeding specifically when he wants to put a baby down for a nap, just saying, as a woman who has breastfed two children, schedules are important.


Thanks.


----------



## cinnabomb

how do you block someone?



TheTruthHurts said:


> I have JLD blocked because her advice to men isn't what they need to DO. It is what the W might be thinking.
> 
> Two VERY different things. I'm a goal oriented guy. When I encounter someone I disagree with at work I want to know how they think. Then I use that knowledge to get them out of my way.
> 
> I suggest you do the same. Understand your wife but don't act like a weak or moody woman. Act like a strong man with firm boundaries and a strong sense of self.
> 
> If your W is disrespectful it's good to understand why. But there is no need to put up with it or even "fix" her.


----------



## cinnabomb

i appreciate this input, and yes you are right on. someone asked why do I stay? i stay because i love her. i love my family. i love those moments where me her and our baby are in bed and giggling and having fun. I stay because sometimes out of the blue my wife will do something kind...like even a simple gesture like reaching out to put her hand on mine. it doesnt happen often anymore....but when it does, i feel like there is hope. 

on a side note, for V-day, she really sort of went all out. i found this confusing and wierd, because last v-day and anniversary she did nothing for me at all and i was really hurt because i put a lot of thoughts into those things. well, thisyear she went all out with a huge dinner spread, gifts, etc. honestly, it was super confusing, because it was actually TOO much, and I was standing there like "where the F did all this come from? why is she doing it". she was very proud of herself, taking pics of the food, etc that she made, and it really was wonderful, but i just didnt understand why she was doing it, considering I ask myself if she even loves me at all. Im so freaking confused. she says the words I love you to me all the time, but then again, in her hollywood world, she says "OMG love you" to almost every person she talks to. I would never use those words in that way. what do you think it all means?

BTW people keep saying go get IC. I already am. ive read NMMNG and its really me 100%. Im working on it slowly. I really am. And to the person who said "do you talk to your wife like that?", i have NEVER insulted my wife like that...I have never so much as called her dumb or stupid or a B or anything. Im patient and kind with her, even when she loses it. I called that person an idiot because she clearly is an idiot. 

Bandit...you say you dont know if I will ever get the respect back. Then why even try? Why even try to make this work? I'm not ready to cut ties and move on. Not even close. It would take something big for that to happen, like I found out she was not faithful. I dont think thats the case. She just has a lot of issues that are only rising to the surface now. I never even knew how deep her mother issues were until MC. And she told me her IC says she has intimacy issues too. Liek for her, it doesnt even cross her mind to want to hug or touch another human being. WTF is that? What I dont get is that it was never like that for 10 YEARS. We snuggled constantly. it was wonderful. How the F can suddenly after a decade someone get all messed up and change so drastically??? Is it possible? Im so confused. 




bandit.45 said:


> Hoooooooooooo! Wow!
> 
> 
> There are some righteous people on this thread. Man, I thought I was harsh?!
> 
> I think you have it in you to stand up to her Cinnabomb, but you don't want to because you love her. I get it. You married a sweet thang and she turned into a shrew. Maybe the two of you have grown to the point where you are just no longer compatible. But I can tell you this, once a woman loses respect for her husband, there is no getting it back completely....ever. You can be Mr. Macho and stand toe to toe with her and not take her crap like Turnera says. That might work. But in the long run I don't think it will. I think your wife wrote you off long ago.
> 
> And all that stuff you did for her at the beginning of the marriage? Doesn't mean squat to her. Women only remember the bad things their husbands do. She is the breadwinner now and in her mind that is all that matters. Add squealing kids to the mix and it just makes a bad situation worse. She is the queen bee and you are nothing but a drone. Your place in her life is roughly equal to the receptionist who answers the phone up front at her office. No....maybe she doesn't even regard you that much.
> 
> Listen bro, I'm on your side, I really am. You are not going to get good advice on TAM for this situation, not with all these feminist harpies here dive-bombing you. Go to the No More Mister Nice Guy website, read the book and join the forum. Many of the members there have gone through very similar experience to yours and they can give you some good advice on how to stop making covert contracts and lead an emotionally independent life without your wife. It's a hairy forum loaded with testosterone. The guys there are not nice. Even I can't stick around for long there, but I like to visit every once in a while.


----------



## cinnabomb

youre an idiot. thanks for proving MY point.


Celes said:


> Do you always resort to insults when you don't like what you hear? In any case, I'm not an idiot. I can read between the lines. And your outburst just proved my point. Thanks for that.


----------



## cinnabomb

almost 2. she isnt "critical", she is just dissmissive and has changed so drastically. its a long list, but it boils down to pretty severe neglect and then often verbal abuse. I cant count how many times I planned a date night so we could spend one single evening together, and the entire dinner (at a restaurant), she is checking and writing emails on her phone, or even leaves me alone in the restaurant to make and take calls. 

yes the baby changed things x100. because now we have something really important in our lives that is worth arguing about. in the past, arguments werent as often because who really cares about what to have for dinner, etc. but when it comes to a baby, we are both opiniated....and really wasnt willing to compromise or listen 95% of the time, which has caused a lot of resentment for me. 



rachaelm said:


> How old is the baby? Maybe some of this is just from the adjustment of motherhood. Was she this critical before the baby?


----------



## cinnabomb

its about respect and domains. the baby is honestly her domain. i help where i can but she does the heavy lifting with baby. so if i have a different opinion on how to raise the baby, i wouldnt just "DO IT", i would want to talk about it in a respectful and constructive way. I dont think "just grabbing the baby and DOING it" is going to end well and dont see how that is being a man. 



2ntnuf said:


> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by cinnabomb View Post
> 
> 3. She can often be dismissive to me. Especially with idea I have for our child. I will say, lets put her in the crib for a nap, or whatever, and she will just steamroll me and say "no". I dont really know how to deal with this. She is really used to getting her way and being the final say at her office, but I am not going to deal with that but dont know the best way to approach it. The next time I have an idea and she doesnt want to have a conversation about it and just says "no", how do I deal with it??
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Why do you ask? If it's time for the baby to go to bed, you just take the baby there and make him/her comfortable. Take some responsibility for being the father. I'm sure you do, but this post of your's seems like you have to have permission from your wife to put the child to bed.


----------



## 2ntnuf

cinnabomb said:


> its about respect and domains. the baby is honestly her domain. i help where i can but she does the heavy lifting with baby. so if i have a different opinion on how to raise the baby, i wouldnt just "DO IT", i would want to talk about it in a respectful and constructive way. I dont think "just grabbing the baby and DOING it" is going to end well and dont see how that is being a man.


What do you mean by grabbing the baby? I don't understand. Are you asking her while she's holding the baby, if she'd like you to take the baby to bed? What's going on? Is your wife falling asleep with the baby in her arms? Is she breastfeeding and both are falling asleep or just what exactly is going on? 

If the baby is sitting in a chair and you turn around and she is lying there asleep, you take her to bed, you don't ask. Lying her down for a nap at that time isn't or doesn't seem like an issue to discuss. 

What aren't you saying?


----------



## cinnabomb

I want to mention something that came out of MC that might shed light on some of this. MC believes that wife went through some enormous "metamorphosis" as a result of this tough new work environment. Having to toughen up to survive and working with an A-hole partner was just the beginning. Now there is pressure, people depend on her, she is successful, paid well, respected, and around a lot of nutty hollywood fatcats and A-listers. It's a very overwhelming thing, for anyone to go through. Think about it like Kanye West....guy from humble beginnings who saw huge success really fast and now look at him. He wasnt prepared for it (as most people are not), and went bat**** crazy. he surrounded himself with "yes men" and is probably not used to anyone close to him criticizing him or saying no. well im not saying wife is exactly like that, but its a very similar thing...taking someone who was shy and humble and giving them all of that nearly overnight and hoping that they somehow stay grounded...

so now you have this person going through major changes, and MC brought to light the horrible relationship wife had with mom growing up. she felt mom was never around for her at all. she felt judged and not loved. she felt pressure to succeed but not supported. when she met me, she found someone who loved her unconditionally, saving her from the pain of her youth. And I really did love her unconditionally, until about 5 years ago when things started to go haywire and she started being really abusive to me. Being busy at work is one thing, but never being reliable, showing up late to everything, not acknowledging me, ignoring anniversaries, birthdays, etc, and spending date nights on the phone while I wait inside the restaurant, and then rejecting most of my attempts at intimacy...well thats a whole nother thing. And things changed. overall we were still ok, but things were not the same. i was seeing changes in her that i disliked, like her sudden obsession with materialism. she had to have all the expensive crap that she never cared about. suddenly our home wasnt nice enough for her. she wanted a big expensive one. she said she wont drive my car because her clients might see it. its a very nice $40k car btw, not a $hitbox. but most of these i could forgive because all i wanted was her love, but she wasnt giving it. i dont know why. MC thinks she was having a really hard time coping with these drastic changes all at once and just not prepared for it. wife even admits to MC to being neglectful in the affection department. 

When we are with MC, wife genuinely seems like she wants to make it work. she says she loves me. however, i dont think she understands she also needs to make some changes to make it work. She keeps saying "I want him to accept me". This is the messed up part. I have always accepted her. But I am not going to accept someone who neglects and abuses me, saying "oh thats just how she is, i should love her unconditionally anyways." Thats BS. I think she wants that. If I say, "honey we havent spent any time together, do you want to hang out" in the past she would flip out. like "you KNOW HOW BUSY I AM NAD NOW YOUR ATTACKING ME YOU JERK." I dealt with that for years. Now, after MC, she is genuinely trying to make an effort. I really believe that. But its still super hard because she isnt the same person. she doesnt seem to need MY affection anymore because she gets 100% of it from baby, who she adores. So I am just there, like an android living in the house. 

And to the people who say that I dont allow her to do things, thats not true at all. I have asked her for help many times...in the past she wasnt as willing to help, but now she is. She asks what she can do to help because she knows how much I do and has said to MC many times how appreciative she is, even though she doesnt say it to me. But its not the big things...its the little things. like last night I was sick and said i feel feverish. she didnt seem concerned at all, didnt bother to check the temp. so i struggled up to get thermometer and checked it, and said "yep 101 fever." her response was "oh yea i had the same thing last week." no other concern. meanwhile last week when she was sick i took care of her in any way i could. i even had a friend drive her to urgent care because i couldnt make it. and here i am next to her with a fever and she doesnt even care??? how would you feel?

So yea, its confusing to me. because she says the words i love you, bu rarely asks how I am, how my day was, can I get you anything, touches me, kisses me, asks to do ANYthing with me, or nurtures or cares for me. So bottom line is that I think she wants to be unconditionally accepted as she is, right now, and for me to be positive all the time, never say anything critical. By the way, to those people who think I am walking around criticizing her all the time, thats complete BS. Her version of "critical" is me saying something like "honey you forgot to give me a hug goodnight", or "im feeling lonely, can we spend some time together." Im not walking around going "youre fat. youre a lousy cook. youre a bad mother" or anything horrible like that. she really thinks ANYthing I say is criticism because of her relationship with her mother (this is what MC thinks). so this is where I am at....with a person i love who doesnt seem to (or maybe just cant) make changes to undo some of the hurt she is causing and provide some of the love and things that I need. Where do I go from here? Will "not being a Mr. Nice Guy" fix this????

I feel really sad and so alone. Really really alone. What do you guys think?


----------



## cinnabomb

its not about taking the baby to bed. its about our opinions on things like "i think the baby should nap in her crib vs you think the baby should just nap in the bed with us", etc. 



2ntnuf said:


> What do you mean by grabbing the baby? I don't understand. Are you asking her while she's holding the baby, if she'd like you to take the baby to bed? What's going on? Is your wife falling asleep with the baby in her arms? Is she breastfeeding and both are falling asleep or just what exactly is going on?
> 
> If the baby is sitting in a chair and you turn around and she is lying there asleep, you take her to bed, you don't ask. Lying her down for a nap at that time isn't or doesn't seem like an issue to discuss.
> 
> What aren't you saying?


----------



## 2ntnuf

cinnabomb said:


> its not about taking the baby to bed. its about our opinions on things like "i think the baby should nap in her crib vs you think the baby should just nap in the bed with us", etc.


Okay, thanks for that. This post and the previous explain quite a bit. I think you are in for some time with counseling. Keep going and work on yourselves. Hang in there. Good luck. I mean it.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I hear what you're saying but I don't think you'll get what you're after.

I think she believes she's changed for the better and left the weak, indecisive, dependent girl behind.

Sorry but that's the way it reads to me. And she wants you to act more like her, with fewer needs and a stronger, more independent streak.

What you see as neglect she sees as independence. What you see as closeness and affection she sees as weak and needy and clingy.

I wonder if you truly let go of the old her - could you see any good in a strong, independent, self sufficient, while, complete woman? Because that might be the new ideal for her.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> And to the person who said "do you talk to your wife like that?", i have NEVER insulted my wife like that...I have never so much as called her dumb or stupid or a B or anything. I'm patient and kind with her, even when she loses it. *I called that person an idiot *because she clearly is an idiot.


cb, that person is NOT an idiot, but they ARE asking you to question your actions and motives, and you don't like that.

But you don't like what your WIFE does, either, do you? 

Why do YOU think you don't call your WIFE an idiot?

I'll tell you: because you are afraid she will leave you if you do.

Nice Guys can be mean as hell to people - OTHER people, just never their spouse. Because they ARE AFRAID.

Until you can get over your fear of her leaving you, you will get nowhere.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> I dont think "just grabbing the baby and DOING it" is going to end well and dont see how that is being a man.


Again, you're afraid. You are avoiding 'pain' in the form of her harsh words or judgment. What's she gonna do, kick you out of the house for putting the baby for a nap?

What ARE you afraid of?


----------



## cinnabomb

bingo! shes talking BS without even reading the full thread or having any understanding of the situation. just bringing her own emotional baggage into my life. with all the absolutely awful spouses out there that are abusive, unfaithful, irresponsible, dont take care of kids, lazy, dont work, etc, then I can live with my biggest flaws being that I was "too needy" or "too nice", or whatever. "God forbid1 hes too nice! personally id rather have my weed smoking adulterer unemployed angry-drunk husband cuz a real MANS man!"

granted my flaws may still be flaws but I'm not going to be attacked by bitter, lonely people here, when I am just here to learn and have SOMEONE to talk to. 



bandit.45 said:


> Don't be so self righteous. You baited him. He was just too emotional to dodge your goad.
> 
> It's bad enough his wife has to sh!t test him, it's really pathetic when the people on this board resort to it.


----------



## cinnabomb

i see plenty of good in her. ive been her NUMBER ONE cheerleeder with all the success she has had. all my friends know of her successes. But to change so drastically where I literally go days at a time, sometimes a full week without ONE interaction with my wife...not one conversation...not one hug....no concern about my well being like making a meal or even picking up food or even asking me how I am...NOTHING. 

Does that sound like a healthy life to you??? Being a strong independent woman doesnt override the responsibilities of being in a relationship/marriage, which is to care for the person you are with. I dont recieve any of that. literally none, and I feel like I am dying insied because of it. I'm willing to try almost anything. thats why I am here. I'm trying to separate the biased noise from the real deal solid knowledge with the hopes that I can make it work for me. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> I hear what you're saying but I don't think you'll get what you're after.
> 
> I think she believes she's changed for the better and left the weak, indecisive, dependent girl behind.
> 
> Sorry but that's the way it reads to me. And she wants you to act more like her, with fewer needs and a stronger, more independent streak.
> 
> What you see as neglect she sees as independence. What you see as closeness and affection she sees as weak and needy and clingy.
> 
> I wonder if you truly let go of the old her - could you see any good in a strong, independent, self sufficient, while, complete woman? Because that might be the new ideal for her.


----------



## Celes

cinnabomb said:


> youre an idiot. thanks for proving MY point.


Wow, this post is new and original. You win, you are clearly my intellectual superior. How can your wife possibly not wet her panties every time you walk into a room? I am shocked and appalled, shocked and appalled I say.


----------



## Celes

cinnabomb said:


> bingo! shes talking BS without even reading the full thread or having any understanding of the situation. just bringing her own emotional baggage into my life. with all the absolutely awful spouses out there that are abusive, unfaithful, irresponsible, dont take care of kids, lazy, dont work, etc, then I can live with my biggest flaws being that I was "too needy" or "too nice", or whatever. "God forbid1 hes too nice! personally id rather have my weed smoking adulterer unemployed angry-drunk husband cuz a real MANS man!"
> 
> granted my flaws may still be flaws but I'm not going to be attacked by bitter, lonely people here, when I am just here to learn and have SOMEONE to talk to.


Nice assumptions you have going on there. Guess that's what you need to tell yourself to feel better about yourself. I have a great marriage to a great man, sorry to disappoint. Oh and I never said you're too nice. You're no where near being a nice guy. But it's quite entertaining to see you lose your **** over my posts, insult me and then play the victim. All in one post. Very telling.


----------



## poida

Hi cinnabomb,

I have read most of your thread and feel I can offer you some guidance as someone who has been in a similarly emotionally submissive position as a Mister Nice Guy, and then cheated on, then divorced, then having found myself and learnt to meet my needs, then meeting a new woman who I am about to propose to.

The first thing I would say is that having read the thread is that I'm not sure you understand your own emotions and needs clearly.

Secondly, you should read and analyse Turnera's comments. You have no idea how spot on they are. Don't get defensive, just read and use them.

I would also warn you that your current approach to your relationship is very likely to cause it to end. You need to change your thinking so that your relationship is not the entire focus of your life. You need to learn about yourself, what your needs and wants are and what makes you happy.

Being very similar to you in the past, my advice to you would be the FORGET about how what you do affects your wife. That would be to miss the point. It has to be about YOU. You need to find out what it is that YOU want, what makes YOU happy. ONLY THEN can you function in a healthy way, earn the respect of your partner and be truly happy in a balanced relationship.

Stop stressing out about your wife and your marriage. You need to STOP going to MC. It isn't helping you right now because you aren't ready for it. It is only putting you in an even more powerless position. It's a bit like going into a meeting to sell something to someone and not knowing what it is you are selling. You are just saying "buy it! buy it! buy it!" 

Stop MC and start PERSONAL counselling. Explain to your wife that you aren't happy with how MC is going and you are going to PC to understand what it is you want and need for yourself before you can properly engage in MC. You may be very surprised. It may be something unrelated to your relationship. In fact it almost certainly is. I was amazed as to how much my work (that I hated) affected my relationship.

It is up to you to find out, but I would suggest that you are highly reliant on your wife for emotional approval, and that this is something you were highly reliant on as a child. Many women find this type of approval seeking tolerable and even adorable early in a relationship, but it becomes very onerous and demanding on them emotionally later in life. To the point that they can no longer offer the emotional approval you seek. I would suggest THIS is why your wife has disconnected. The next step is finding a man who DOES meet her needs rather than her having to meet YOUR emotional needs. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Start working on yourself and in daily life start by levelling the playing field in terms of work in the relationship and work around the house. Do half of everything and no more. This will reduce your spite and earn respect in your wife (despite what she says and complains).

Stop seeking emotional approval from your wife. Understand why it is you need that emotional approval. Find out how to give yourself approval. I did and it changed my life. I am now a man who stands on his own two feet and I have so much more to offer my new partner.

I can't tell you more as you will find out what you need to do once you start to learn about YOURSELF in PC.

Good luck and keep posting.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Listen to poida and don't be baited by celes.


----------



## jdawg2015

LOL. 

She's abrasive and my guess is in real life she doesn't get along well with others.



TheTruthHurts said:


> Listen to poida and don't be baited by celes.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

OP, I liked your long post. Good thinking sorting through these issues. As a woman with very difficult mother issues, from personal experience, I can vouch, it definitely impacts for a long time and I can see where something suppressed can come forward later in life. I'm glad to hear she is willing and you are seeing some movement in some areas though I hear the holes still left. Take time to celebrate this recent success. 

Going forward I would begin to put voice to "wife I have always accepted you in the past, but the past didn't include abuse and neglect."

The tricky part then will be sorting through your definitions of abuse and neglect which could take a while. But it sounds like she is softening a bit to your position. This is good.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

TheTruthHurts said:


> Listen to poida and don't be baited by celes.


They are basically saying the same thing, no?

Cinna's relationship issues are of his own construction. And now his wife isn't attracted to him. Because of* his *behavior.

He's so focused on how to change his wife's behavior..

BUT

It's *his* problem. Like so many here have been saying, if he wants to improve his relationship with his wife, he needs to own his POS tendencies. And work through them. Because his POS tendencies are why his wife has lost her attraction for him. It has very little to do with her job. That's smoke and mirrors.

90% of his posts are focused on her. Her, Her, Her. 

Ideally, the focus will shift to me, me, me. "I've learned this about myself" or "my FOO issue are this", "or "I've been hitting the gym and I'm looking like a beast now!" or "I'm so needy because of my relationship with my mother", etc.

BTW, I am neither lonely nor bitter. Just sayin...


----------



## bfree

I have one simple comment. Your wife has changed. People usually do. Sometimes it's a slow change, sometimes it's sudden due to an epiphany, sometimes it's related to some external stimuli. When you're in a relationship with someone you have to adapt, the relationship needs to evolve along with the people. Your wife seems to like who she is now. She also seems to be making an effort to reassure you that she understands your concerns and is trying. She's craving acceptance from you. Yes you say you've always accepted her. But you really haven't accepted this new person who stands in front of you. You wish things would go back to the way things were. They won't. You need to find a way to evolve. You need to see this new woman as someone who is personally more healthy. Have patience as she tries to integrate her personal and professional lives together. This is just as hard for her as it is for you. Try to take a positive viewpoint on this. Instead of looking at it negatively try seeing it as a new exciting challenge. It may not work out. Maybe what you and she are expecting are now too different. Maybe your respective needs are too misaligned. But a positive outlook might just tip the scales and offer you both a new direction.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> I have one simple comment. Your wife has changed. People usually do. Sometimes it's a slow change, sometimes it's sudden due to an epiphany, sometimes it's related to some external stimuli. When you're in a relationship with someone you have to adapt, the relationship needs to evolve along with the people. Your wife seems to like who she is now. She also seems to be making an effort to reassure you that she understands your concerns and is trying. She's craving acceptance from you. Yes you say you've always accepted her. But you really haven't accepted this new person who stands in front of you. You wish things would go back to the way things were. They won't. You need to find a way to evolve. You need to see this new woman as someone who is personally more healthy. Have patience as she tries to integrate her personal and professional lives together. This is just as hard for her as it is for you. Try to take a positive viewpoint on this. Instead of looking at it negatively try seeing it as a new exciting challenge. It may not work out. Maybe what you and she are expecting are now too different. Maybe your respective needs are too misaligned. But a positive outlook might just tip the scales and offer you both a new direction.


I agree with this and will add, but not to the degree that abuse and neglect are prevalent. That part needs to be addressed.


----------



## bandit.45

I agree with bfree's post too. 

I think OP needs some IC to deal with his codependent tendencies and hot temper. Couple this with learning and applying the NMMNG tenants, and I think OP can become the emotionally. independent man his wife needs him to be. I think this whole situation is completely solvable. I really think he needs to concentrate on himself than trying to change his wife. And once she sees his changes, she will come around. 

She has too much to deal with on top of being responsible for his emotional health.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> I agree with bfree's post too.
> 
> I think OP needs some IC to deal with his codependent tendencies and hot temper. Couple this with learning and applying the NMMNG tenants, and I think OP can become the emotionally. independent man his wife needs him to be. I think this whole situation is completely solvable. I really think he needs to concentrate on himself than trying to change his wife. And once she sees his changes, she will come around.
> 
> *She has too much to deal with on top of being responsible for his emotional health*.


Truth. Before she didn't need him to be emotionally independent. Now she does because her plate is so full. Its become a necessity. She doesn't possess the capacity to do both. Great post.


----------



## cinnabomb

After a short ban...im BACK! Plus I learned about the "ignore" feature. Bye bye to some of you lol. 

Poida, thanks for this. really insightful and worded well. I am already in IC BTW. As for "finding my happiness", ive been doing a lot of that, like playing sports, meeting my friends for happy hour, whatever, but heres my Q to you: some of my happiness comes from a desire to be with my wife. she was my best friend for a decade. I WANT to watch tv with her and talk about the episode and get excited for the next one and cuddle. I WANT to have sex with her. I WANT to go to a nice dinner with her and enjoy great food and talk about our life and dreams and everything. I could do all of those myself (sort of), but its not going to bring me the same level of happiness. Not sure if I am missing something here. 

My guess is that you mean dont let ALL my happiness be derived from one person, because putting all my eggs in one basket is risky and unhealthy. I get that 100%. I did that for years and now am paying the price. But I still want us to have a relationship. I still want to hug and have sex and cuddle and talk etc. But she has become like a robot around me. Like literally no desire or even detectable NEED to want to hug me. Like last night she said good night and gave me a tiny peck on the cheek. We had not touched each other in 24 hours before that. I wanted so bad to hug her and feel her cheek against mine but I resisted because of everything people here and on NMMNG forum are telling me. But I'm like....wait, why am I denying myself what I want?? If hugging her makes me happy, then why am I denying myself?? 

So...yea...im confused. Right now I am basically doing what people call the 180. Just not really initiating anything with her and barely interacting. Why am I doing it?? To what end? I honestly am not freakin sure. If any one you could advise me, that would be great. 

I wish I had a video of what healthy normal interaction between a couple is like because its just getting wierd over here. Its like we each play with our baby individually, but have little to no crossover interaction. I wonder whats going on in my wifes head. I wonder if she has even noticed. I wonder if this is how she wants her husband, actually....totally distant, not asking a thing from her, and she doesnt need to do a thing for me. Seems like a perfect setup for her. So then how does this help me?

thanks




poida said:


> Hi cinnabomb,
> 
> I have read most of your thread and feel I can offer you some guidance as someone who has been in a similarly emotionally submissive position as a Mister Nice Guy, and then cheated on, then divorced, then having found myself and learnt to meet my needs, then meeting a new woman who I am about to propose to.
> 
> The first thing I would say is that having read the thread is that I'm not sure you understand your own emotions and needs clearly.
> 
> Secondly, you should read and analyse Turnera's comments. You have no idea how spot on they are. Don't get defensive, just read and use them.
> 
> I would also warn you that your current approach to your relationship is very likely to cause it to end. You need to change your thinking so that your relationship is not the entire focus of your life. You need to learn about yourself, what your needs and wants are and what makes you happy.
> 
> Being very similar to you in the past, my advice to you would be the FORGET about how what you do affects your wife. That would be to miss the point. It has to be about YOU. You need to find out what it is that YOU want, what makes YOU happy. ONLY THEN can you function in a healthy way, earn the respect of your partner and be truly happy in a balanced relationship.
> 
> Stop stressing out about your wife and your marriage. You need to STOP going to MC. It isn't helping you right now because you aren't ready for it. It is only putting you in an even more powerless position. It's a bit like going into a meeting to sell something to someone and not knowing what it is you are selling. You are just saying "buy it! buy it! buy it!"
> 
> Stop MC and start PERSONAL counselling. Explain to your wife that you aren't happy with how MC is going and you are going to PC to understand what it is you want and need for yourself before you can properly engage in MC. You may be very surprised. It may be something unrelated to your relationship. In fact it almost certainly is. I was amazed as to how much my work (that I hated) affected my relationship.
> 
> It is up to you to find out, but I would suggest that you are highly reliant on your wife for emotional approval, and that this is something you were highly reliant on as a child. Many women find this type of approval seeking tolerable and even adorable early in a relationship, but it becomes very onerous and demanding on them emotionally later in life. To the point that they can no longer offer the emotional approval you seek. I would suggest THIS is why your wife has disconnected. The next step is finding a man who DOES meet her needs rather than her having to meet YOUR emotional needs. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
> 
> Start working on yourself and in daily life start by levelling the playing field in terms of work in the relationship and work around the house. Do half of everything and no more. This will reduce your spite and earn respect in your wife (despite what she says and complains).
> 
> Stop seeking emotional approval from your wife. Understand why it is you need that emotional approval. Find out how to give yourself approval. I did and it changed my life. I am now a man who stands on his own two feet and I have so much more to offer my new partner.
> 
> I can't tell you more as you will find out what you need to do once you start to learn about YOURSELF in PC.
> 
> Good luck and keep posting.


----------



## cinnabomb

I just want to respond to this. Ive never had a temper...ever. I dont raise my voice, lose my cool, call people names, etc. I was taught at a very (too young) young age to learn extreme patience, and have a zen-like approach to hostile/inciting situations. How I responded to you-know-who was just me getting fed up with people using this forum to vent their own dissatisfaction with their own lives by trying to bait/incite me. Its a waste of time. 

That out of the way, when you say she will "come around", what is it that you think she will respond to? My current state of distance? How long do I 180 her? Should I never say anything nice to her then? I mean honestly, when I give her positive feedback or say something nice (because she did something nice), she responds very favorably to it. She will smile and say "thank you honey that means a lot". And my guess is that she will then be more inclined to do those things more. So then why arent I doing that? thanks for the info




bandit.45 said:


> I agree with bfree's post too.
> 
> I think OP needs some IC to deal with his codependent tendencies and hot temper. Couple this with learning and applying the NMMNG tenants, and I think OP can become the emotionally. independent man his wife needs him to be. I think this whole situation is completely solvable. I really think he needs to concentrate on himself than trying to change his wife. And once she sees his changes, she will come around.
> 
> She has too much to deal with on top of being responsible for his emotional health.


----------



## turnera

See, you are still 'doing things' just to GET something from someone else. That what Nice Guys do. It's called Covert Contracts.

Until you can do whatever you do BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU HAPPY, you will continue to be at the mercy of EVERYONE ELSE.

That's what the 180 is for - to teach you that you CAN just do things for yourself and NOT depend on someone else being happy or giving you sex or being upbeat or meeting your needs.

You need to learn to BE OK BY YOURSELF.

Until then, until you learn to love yourself no matter WHO loves you back, you will continue to chase other people's feelings.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> I just want to respond to this. Ive never had a temper...ever. I dont raise my voice, lose my cool, call people names, etc. I was taught at a very (too young) young age to learn extreme patience, and have a zen-like approach to hostile/inciting situations. How I responded to you-know-who was just me getting fed up with people using this forum to vent their own dissatisfaction with their own lives by trying to bait/incite me. Its a waste of time.


The 'you know who' (calling her that is actually RUDE on YOUR part, btw) was completely logical in what she asked you, was NOT venting ANY dissatisfaction with her own life. She WAS taking you to task for YOUR actions.

And you didn't like it.

And you did what all Nice Guys do - act out in a rude, condescending way. It was NOT attractive, nor mature.

Take this thread and have someone in your life read it, and ask them to tell you what THEY think. I think you'll be surprised.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I've thought about you and your posts and responses to the TAM people who are trying so hard to explain to you what you can't see NP5

I don't know if this makes sense, but maybe from your perspective we're saying you should stop feeling and having emotions when you do things that might involve your wife.

I really think that's what it would feel like to you. And I think that scares you and you think that will push you further apart. Instead you have more intense feelings including hurt.

But if you stop feeling, what would that be like? Actually it wouldn't be as bad as you think.

So you want to watch a tv. Show and pick one that you think both you and W would enjoy. If you don't build up an emotional expectation - but are emotionless regarding Ws enjoyment with you, what would that feel like? To me, I would be smiling and looking forward to the show. And I would be receptive to enjoying it with W. But if she did something else I'd be totally ok with that. I wouldn't build it up first then be disappointed and mad later. Instead I'd be fine. If she joined me - that would be great!

Make sense?


----------



## cinnabomb

right, of course youd back her. BTW 3 people PMed me saying how annoying and rude she is. bye, turnera, leave my post please. 



turnera said:


> The 'you know who' (calling her that is actually RUDE on YOUR part, btw) was completely logical in what she asked you, was NOT venting ANY dissatisfaction with her own life. She WAS taking you to task for YOUR actions.
> 
> And you didn't like it.
> 
> And you did what all Nice Guys do - act out in a rude, condescending way. It was NOT attractive, nor mature.
> 
> Take this thread and have someone in your life read it, and ask them to tell you what THEY think. I think you'll be surprised.


----------



## rachaelm

cinnabomb said:


> I want to mention something that came out of MC that might shed light on some of this. MC believes that wife went through some enormous "metamorphosis" as a result of this tough new work environment. Having to toughen up to survive and working with an A-hole partner was just the beginning. Now there is pressure, people depend on her, she is successful, paid well, respected, and around a lot of nutty hollywood fatcats and A-listers. It's a very overwhelming thing, for anyone to go through. Think about it like Kanye West....guy from humble beginnings who saw huge success really fast and now look at him. He wasnt prepared for it (as most people are not), and went bat**** crazy. he surrounded himself with "yes men" and is probably not used to anyone close to him criticizing him or saying no. well im not saying wife is exactly like that, but its a very similar thing...taking someone who was shy and humble and giving them all of that nearly overnight and hoping that they somehow stay grounded...
> 
> so now you have this person going through major changes, and MC brought to light the horrible relationship wife had with mom growing up. she felt mom was never around for her at all. she felt judged and not loved. she felt pressure to succeed but not supported. when she met me, she found someone who loved her unconditionally, saving her from the pain of her youth. And I really did love her unconditionally, until about 5 years ago when things started to go haywire and she started being really abusive to me. Being busy at work is one thing, but never being reliable, showing up late to everything, not acknowledging me, ignoring anniversaries, birthdays, etc, and spending date nights on the phone while I wait inside the restaurant, and then rejecting most of my attempts at intimacy...well thats a whole nother thing. And things changed. overall we were still ok, but things were not the same. i was seeing changes in her that i disliked, like her sudden obsession with materialism. she had to have all the expensive crap that she never cared about. suddenly our home wasnt nice enough for her. she wanted a big expensive one. she said she wont drive my car because her clients might see it. its a very nice $40k car btw, not a $hitbox. but most of these i could forgive because all i wanted was her love, but she wasnt giving it. i dont know why. MC thinks she was having a really hard time coping with these drastic changes all at once and just not prepared for it. wife even admits to MC to being neglectful in the affection department.
> 
> When we are with MC, wife genuinely seems like she wants to make it work. she says she loves me. however, i dont think she understands she also needs to make some changes to make it work. She keeps saying "I want him to accept me". This is the messed up part. I have always accepted her. But I am not going to accept someone who neglects and abuses me, saying "oh thats just how she is, i should love her unconditionally anyways." Thats BS. I think she wants that. If I say, "honey we havent spent any time together, do you want to hang out" in the past she would flip out. like "you KNOW HOW BUSY I AM NAD NOW YOUR ATTACKING ME YOU JERK." I dealt with that for years. Now, after MC, she is genuinely trying to make an effort. I really believe that. But its still super hard because she isnt the same person. she doesnt seem to need MY affection anymore because she gets 100% of it from baby, who she adores. So I am just there, like an android living in the house.
> 
> And to the people who say that I dont allow her to do things, thats not true at all. I have asked her for help many times...in the past she wasnt as willing to help, but now she is. She asks what she can do to help because she knows how much I do and has said to MC many times how appreciative she is, even though she doesnt say it to me. But its not the big things...its the little things. like last night I was sick and said i feel feverish. she didnt seem concerned at all, didnt bother to check the temp. so i struggled up to get thermometer and checked it, and said "yep 101 fever." her response was "oh yea i had the same thing last week." no other concern. meanwhile last week when she was sick i took care of her in any way i could. i even had a friend drive her to urgent care because i couldnt make it. and here i am next to her with a fever and she doesnt even care??? how would you feel?
> 
> So yea, its confusing to me. because she says the words i love you, bu rarely asks how I am, how my day was, can I get you anything, touches me, kisses me, asks to do ANYthing with me, or nurtures or cares for me. So bottom line is that I think she wants to be unconditionally accepted as she is, right now, and for me to be positive all the time, never say anything critical. By the way, to those people who think I am walking around criticizing her all the time, thats complete BS. Her version of "critical" is me saying something like "honey you forgot to give me a hug goodnight", or "im feeling lonely, can we spend some time together." Im not walking around going "youre fat. youre a lousy cook. youre a bad mother" or anything horrible like that. she really thinks ANYthing I say is criticism because of her relationship with her mother (this is what MC thinks). so this is where I am at....with a person i love who doesnt seem to (or maybe just cant) make changes to undo some of the hurt she is causing and provide some of the love and things that I need. Where do I go from here? Will "not being a Mr. Nice Guy" fix this????
> 
> I feel really sad and so alone. Really really alone. What do you guys think?


What can you acknowledge is your fault in the relationship? Where have you made mistakes and what were they? What have you done to change these things?


----------



## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> right, of course youd back her. BTW 3 people PMed me saying how annoying and rude she is. bye, turnera, leave my post please.


Huh?
@turnera has you pegged.

Good luck, dude. Maybe one day you will get over yourself long enough to realize you are the problem.

I'm out.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## ThreeStrikes

cinnabomb said:


> right, of course youd back her. BTW 3 people PMed me saying how annoying and rude she is. bye, turnera, leave my post please.


Zen-like, eh?

Defensive people aren't here to learn. They're here for attention and ego kibbles.

Good luck, Cinna.

When you've suffered enough, you'll look in the mirror and see the problem. Maybe then you'll get it.

I'm out.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Wow CB. I don't buy a lot of what some TAM women espouse here... But turnera is one of the good ones. Calm down and reconsider blocking her - you are reacting emotionally and lashing out. This is probably one thing your W sees and I'll tell you this - to a woman THIS behavior is really, really bad. It will undo 20 times the "good stuff" you offer in a relationship.

The irony is that the longer this goes on, the more you trigger, the less you will listen to before immediately going to the dark places, and the faster you'll rage out. Only you can take a step back and let go of all that baggage and try to be objective and listen. No one here can make that happen for you.


----------



## turnera

TheTruthHurts said:


> Wow CB. I don't buy a lot of what some TAM women espouse here... But turnera is one of the good ones. Calm down and reconsider blocking her - you are reacting emotionally and lashing out. This is probably one thing your W sees and I'll tell you this - to a woman THIS behavior is really, really bad. *It will undo 20 times the "good stuff" you offer in a relationship*.


Two thoughts: A woman's top Emotional Need is almost always safety. Physical, mental, and/or financial. Lashing out teaches a woman you can't handle your own emotions and that she might become the victim or target of those emotions. NOT safe. So we retreat from you.

Second, my favorite analogy is the Love Bucket. It's that metaphorical bucket into which the loving things you do for your partner are stored, i.e. meeting their Emotional Needs. Each loving thing you do, each EN you meet, is a drop in that bucket. Be loving enough (and note I am NOT talking about being a Nice Guy and being nice to get something in return), and that bucket stays full of love for you. Overflowing love and all that. Your partner will trip all over himself/herself to be nice and loving to YOU in return because you make him/her so happy.

But...

Each time you Love Bust - each time you do something that irritates your spouse, angers them, makes them feel bad, do a Covert Contract, make them feel used, annoys them (clingy, whiny, etc.)...it pokes a hole in that bucket. Makes their feelings about you just a little less beautiful and shiny. Tarnished. 

And that love starts to drip out of that hole, just a little. The love level goes down just a bit. 

Now, if you're amazing in every other way, so what? One or two little irritations, anyone will overlook.

The problem comes when you continue to LB them. Multiple ways, or the same way each time, after they've asked you to stop. My example is dirty Q tips. My H leaves them lying all over the house. Expects me to clean up after him, pick up his disgusting dirty Q tips. I've told him over and over and over that it upsets me that he (1) is such a slob about it (just throws it AT the trash can and if they fall on the floor instead, well, Turnera will pick it up) and (2) EXPECTS me to be his f'ing maid.

On its own, not that big a deal. But when I continue to tell him it upsets me, and he continues to apparently just figure so what, THAT is a major LB to me. And every time I see another Q tip on the floor or the counter or the bedstand or the bed, it's ANOTHER hole in that bucket. Because I'm being ignored AND taken for granted.

Think about how well a bucket works if it's got 10 or 20 - or 100 - holes in it. Not very well, eh? 

You pride yourself on being SO loving and doing SO much for her...but you continue to LB her in ways you aren't willing to consider, and thus you continue to poke holes in her Love Bucket. 

And once you poke TOO many holes...well, there's no turning back. No getting back the love you lost.

The moral of that story is to love SMART. Be loving, yes, but become AWARE of the ways in which you LB your partner, so you can REMOVE those actions you do that poke all those holes in her love for you.

ETA: I wanted to add that in the last couple years, my H has FINALLY taken me seriously and now, more times than not, he actually does throw his Q tips away. And every time I see that, I have a warm fuzzy for him. That's him filling the Love Bucket back up.


----------



## cinnabomb

yup i get this metaphor. its accurate. but dont forget the basics of what I am talking about here. Im not talking about my nice guy tendencies. im talking about a wife who has been SEVERELY abusive and neglectful for 5+ years. I have never even so much called her a nem in our 10+ years together. EVER. She has called me names 1000 times. She has slammed doors in my face, yelled so loud our neighbors can hear, ignored me for weeks at a time, even slept in different rooms, all when I am telling her that she did something wrong (like showing up an hour late to my birthday), or hurtful or whatever. She simply cant handle it. SHe is not emotionally stable enough to handle any form of criticism or being asked for something. She has become incredibly egocentric and selfish in this relationship. 

So, you guys tell me I can only change myself. fair enough. Im going to keep working on that regardless. But i could do without the unnecessarily hostility. ive been through a ton of pain and still stuck through it after all these years because I wanted to "do the right thing". I wanted to be the "perfect" husband, father, son, that my parents always wanted me to be....of course an impossible order. But yes I AM sensitive right now. Yes my wounds ARE open. Im LOSING my family before my eyes. Im losing my WIFE, my sweetheart of many years, together since college. I look at my wonderful baby and fear that I wont see her as much if this doesnt work out. I think about baby calling out for "papa" and im not there and it breaks my heart. Its freaking hard. I feel depressed and desperate and really lonely and alone in my endeavor. So give me a break. 

Im unblocking you because I know you have some good knowledge, but I'm asking you one time to temper your harsh criticisms and release it elsewhere. Ive been through enough of it. thanks. 



turnera said:


> Two thoughts: A woman's top Emotional Need is almost always safety. Physical, mental, and/or financial. Lashing out teaches a woman you can't handle your own emotions and that she might become the victim or target of those emotions. NOT safe. So we retreat from you.
> 
> Second, my favorite analogy is the Love Bucket. It's that metaphorical bucket into which the loving things you do for your partner are stored, i.e. meeting their Emotional Needs. Each loving thing you do, each EN you meet, is a drop in that bucket. Be loving enough (and note I am NOT talking about being a Nice Guy and being nice to get something in return), and that bucket stays full of love for you. Overflowing love and all that. Your partner will trip all over himself/herself to be nice and loving to YOU in return because you make him/her so happy.
> 
> But...
> 
> Each time you Love Bust - each time you do something that irritates your spouse, angers them, makes them feel bad, do a Covert Contract, make them feel used, annoys them (clingy, whiny, etc.)...it pokes a hole in that bucket. Makes their feelings about you just a little less beautiful and shiny. Tarnished.
> 
> And that love starts to drip out of that hole, just a little. The love level goes down just a bit.
> 
> Now, if you're amazing in every other way, so what? One or two little irritations, anyone will overlook.
> 
> The problem comes when you continue to LB them. Multiple ways, or the same way each time, after they've asked you to stop. My example is dirty Q tips. My H leaves them lying all over the house. Expects me to clean up after him, pick up his disgusting dirty Q tips. I've told him over and over and over that it upsets me that he (1) is such a slob about it (just throws it AT the trash can and if they fall on the floor instead, well, Turnera will pick it up) and (2) EXPECTS me to be his f'ing maid.
> 
> On its own, not that big a deal. But when I continue to tell him it upsets me, and he continues to apparently just figure so what, THAT is a major LB to me. And every time I see another Q tip on the floor or the counter or the bedstand or the bed, it's ANOTHER hole in that bucket. Because I'm being ignored AND taken for granted.
> 
> Think about how well a bucket works if it's got 10 or 20 - or 100 - holes in it. Not very well, eh?
> 
> You pride yourself on being SO loving and doing SO much for her...but you continue to LB her in ways you aren't willing to consider, and thus you continue to poke holes in her Love Bucket.
> 
> And once you poke TOO many holes...well, there's no turning back. No getting back the love you lost.
> 
> The moral of that story is to love SMART. Be loving, yes, but become AWARE of the ways in which you LB your partner, so you can REMOVE those actions you do that poke all those holes in her love for you.
> 
> ETA: I wanted to add that in the last couple years, my H has FINALLY taken me seriously and now, more times than not, he actually does throw his Q tips away. And every time I see that, I have a warm fuzzy for him. That's him filling the Love Bucket back up.


----------



## turnera

When someone calls you names and you accept it, do nothing, and come back for more, whose fault is it when you get called names the next time? Hint: not hers.

You have control over this, cb. You just aren't using it.


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> When someone calls you names and you accept it, do nothing, and come back for more, whose fault is it when you get called names the next time? Hint: not hers.
> 
> You have control over this, cb. You just aren't using it.


really though? is it really MY fault that she calls me names? I mean at what point do you also ask that a person take responsibilities for their own actions? it is the fault of the police that a serial killers continues to kill, simply because they havent caught or reprimanded him yet? is it the fault of a society that hasnt scolded the guy who serial masturbates on the metro? Is it the fault of the liquor store for selling the alcoholic his drink of choice? do you not believe that people are in control and responsible for their own behavior? i certainly do. 

im not saying that me me not standing up for myself has helped the situation....it hasnt. but at the end of the day, mental illness, in all its forms, is mental illness. If someone is a bully, abusive, an addict, etc, that's THEIR fault. thats their demons that they are dealing with. I understand that I can only change myself and hope that changes the situation....but when you are talking about FAULT....well I disagree. What she chooses to do, how to treat me, is not my FAULT.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Abuse is never your fault Cinna. Your wife's choice of behavior is 100% on her. I think its wise to separate accurate feedback out of it, but if she is destructive, she's destructive. 

What is your part is deciding how to proceed, which you've been focused on for quite some time. I wish I had strong internal boundaries earlier on in my life, paired with courage to act on abuse that was around me. Its just one of those things that takes the time it takes. Once I was aware of the abuse, I began to realize that if I chose to put myself in the abusers space, I was choosing to abuse myself. I also realized I was choosing to leave myself at risk of further damage, something I couldn't afford. Its hard when these issues involve children because you tend to stay more readily, so how do you not leave yourself at risk while trying to remain close to your child. Its a tough one, but a needed one. I think it takes accurate boundaries withoit leaving empathy in the dust. How is counseling going?


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> really though? is it really MY fault that she calls me names? I mean at what point do you also ask that a person take responsibilities for their own actions?


You simply aren't understanding the concept of boundaries and consequences, cb. It's not your fault that she calls you names - THE FIRST TIME. Maybe not even the second time, as I always give everyone a second chance.

But the third time? It is ABSOLUTELY your fault that you were IN HER PRESENCE enough to ALLOW her to call you names. On that third event, the instant she started to criticize you, YOU were supposed to stop her, say "I don't deserve to be talked to like this" and leave the room. She can't criticize you if you're not in the room. I mean, she CAN, but you won't be there to hear it. That is you having a boundary (I don't let people call me names), and you enacting a consequence to protect yourself from another person crossing your boundary (leaving the event).

Since you can't MAKE another person do ANYTHING, your responsibility - and any and all therapists will tell you this; it's in every self help book - is to stop ENABLING her to treat you poorly. She's free to go treat some OTHER poor guy poorly if she wants, but you won't accept it.

Therefore, if you DO stand there and accept it, it IS your fault that you continue to accept it.

You're trying REALLY hard to make sure everyone agrees with you that she's the bad guy and you're the victim (cough *Nice Guy* cough) - so you don't have to DO anything. Until you accept that YOU have to make changes in YOU in order to see any changes in HER, you'll continue to wallow in unhappiness and self pity - and achieve nothing.

Try looking up the Stages of Grief. Ask your therapist about it. Go through the stages and accept, then grieve, that you got a sh&tty marriage, and then move forward. That should get all the 'why me' stuff out of the way; once you accept you got a raw deal, then you can choose to make changes.


----------



## cinnabomb

thanks BL. good info. we agree about fault and abuse. we skipped a week of MC because we were all really sick. we go again tomorrow. overall, I am grateful for MC, because truth is we are at a much healthier and better place now than 6 months ago. actually, edit that....I am at a batter place. 6 months ago I was severely depressed and desperate and sick to my stomach. Now I am just trying to understand it all and move forward. I thank MC for that. She has been a very understanding and fair mediator and teacher. 

MC focuses a lot of our past, parents, etc. While I think there is a lot of merit there, I dont think MC is addressing the biggest influence in wifes life, which is her job and devil-partner of 5+ years. She spends 10 hours a day with him, and then 2 more hours talking/emailing with him from home. Ive made it very clear that all of these changes came about after he entered the picture, but she just hasnt really broached that with wife yet and its getting frustrating. Its a factor....a big one. Maybe one that I can never compete with, and if so, I want to know that now. 

yesterday my wife was nicer than usual...im still focsed on myself, doing 180, etc, and been working a lot on laptop, also played sports etc. but yesterday she offered to make me tea since she was making it for herself, something she rarely ever does (offering me anything), and came over twice during the day and gave me a hug and said "hows that?". i said "good", but didnt "give back" much, as in getting giddy or anything. I wanted to, but I think im not supposed to. I dunno. 

Nightime she put her hand on my arm, also something that is rare these days, and we watched a show together. she was sort of being goofy and i teased her one time about something she said. it reminded me off how we used to be. but even when days like this happen, I cant shake the deep fear that she will lose her temper the next day, when I say "honey that was inconsiderate of you to let baby jump on me when I was sleeping and you know im sick" or whatever. BTW....its not as simple as her coming home and just berating me. she doesnt do that. its usually her losing her temper to me saying something like the example I just gave, or her leaving a mess for me to clean and when i politely say that she left a mess behind and could she not do that, she loses her temper. stuff like that. it would be a lot easier to say "i dont deserve to be talked to like that" and walk out if she were berating me out of the blue like that, but its stuff that I am usually asking of HER. so thats the frustrating part. even still, next time she loses her temper I will say "i dont deserve to be talked to like this. Either lower your voice or we can talk once youve calmed down."



Blossom Leigh said:


> Abuse is never your fault cinna. Your wife's choice of behavior is 100% on her. I think its wise to separate accurate feedback out of it, but if she is destructive, she's destructive.
> 
> What is your part is deciding how to proceed, which you've been focused on for quite some time. I wish I had strong internal boundaries earlier on in my life, paired with courage to act on abuse that was around me. Its just one of those things that takes the time it takes. Once I was aware of the abuse, I began to realize that if I chose to put myself in the abusers space, I was choosing to abuse myself. I also realized I was choosing to leave myself at risk of further damage, something I couldn't afford. Its hard when these issues involve children because you tend to stay more readily, so how do you not leave yourself at risk while trying to remain close to your child. Its a tough one, but a needed one. I think it takes accurate boundaries withoit leaving empathy in the dust. How is counseling going?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

"BTW....its not as simple as her coming home and just berating me. she doesnt do that. its usually her losing her temper to me saying something like the example I just gave, or her leaving a mess for me to clean and when i politely say that she left a mess behind and could she not do that, she loses her temper. stuff like that. it would be a lot easier to say "i dont deserve to be talked to like that" and walk out if she were berating me out of the blue like that, but its stuff that I am usually asking of HER. so thats the frustrating part. even still, next time she loses her temper I will say "i dont deserve to be talked to like this. Either lower your voice or we can talk once youve calmed down."

Her anger issues are either legit or they aren't. If you haven't separated legit from unreasonable, lets dig in that spot for a moment. So lets say you have just cleaned up an area in your home and she leaves a new mess in that spot, you say _____________ and she says _________________.

Fill in the blank.


----------



## turnera

Give us an example of how it comes to her losing her temper, so we can see the dynamics.

And she is 'coming over' to your side - touching you, getting you tea - now that you are doing the 180. She probably doesn't even know she's doing it, but you doing the 180 is making you more manly, more strong-appearing, more attractive, so she's being drawn to you. It sounds counterintuitive, but it's clear she now recognizes strength as an asset and, for a long while, you paled in comparison to her work guy. Now that you're respecting yourself via the 180, you look worth respecting to HER.


----------



## cinnabomb

sure - its a bit harder to give any recent one because ever since MC, she has not really blown up at me. maybe only a couple times lost her temper and raised her voice. im stepping way out of my comfort zone recently and asking things of her that I would normally just do (and then become resentful about), like asking her to pickup her dirty kleenexes off the nightstand or floor. sometimes when i ask something like that, she will sort of still give a tinge of attitude, as if deep down she is saying "how dare you ask me to do something", but maybe im over-reading it. even still im trying to keep doing it because the resent track has not worked for me obiously, and either is spoiling her by doing it all myself. 

ok the last time she blew up at me, i was sick, in bed, and its early morning. she does the morning shift with baby, breastfeeding etc. normally she doesnt come in the bedroom because she knows im a terrible insomniac and barely sleep as it is, and usually the morning is the only deep sleep i get. plus im sick. well she brought baby in and loudly talked with baby right next to me as if I werent there. even let baby repeatedly bang on the wall, door, etc and didnt tell baby to stop. it was beyond inconsiderate, and its hard enough knowing the when I am sick I am totally on my own (she doesnt ever offer to help me, cook, tea, anything). so I was upset and said "why did you let baby make all that noise I was asleep." I didnt even attack HER i sort of deflected it onto the baby a bit, trying to phrase it nicer (MC told me to do this). 

Wife lost temper and began berating me loudly about unrelated things like "you know im up every morning taking care of baby, etc". I said "i do a ton of stuff for us too but Im not bringing that up, its not related to this." she just left angry, no goodbye, didnt even let me kiss baby bye which is a ritual and super hurtful. typical behavior. theres a million more examples from the past, but like I said, no huge recent blowups. recently the behavior has just been more distancing and ignoring/neglecting. which is sometimes even harder. 

Lets see how today goes. I think the sample pool is a bit too small to say "the 180 is working". yesterday might have been just a coincidence. who knows. maybe she had a good day at work. maybe she fit into some pants she hasnt worn in awhile. I dont know. lets see how it goes. Any advice for how to continue to act? Keep doing 180 I am assuming, but should I ask about how her day was or should I not? She enjoys talking about her day and that usually improves her mood....one of her complaints to MC was that we stopped talking about our work and she felt that distanced us. I agree with her on that. I think she wanted to come home and tell me about her day every day, but because she knows how how I hate her partner and how resentful I was for what happened to her (her behavior changes), that she knew I didnt want to hear about her work anymore. It just made me madder. Thoughts?



Blossom Leigh said:


> "BTW....its not as simple as her coming home and just berating me. she doesnt do that. its usually her losing her temper to me saying something like the example I just gave, or her leaving a mess for me to clean and when i politely say that she left a mess behind and could she not do that, she loses her temper. stuff like that. it would be a lot easier to say "i dont deserve to be talked to like that" and walk out if she were berating me out of the blue like that, but its stuff that I am usually asking of HER. so thats the frustrating part. even still, next time she loses her temper I will say "i dont deserve to be talked to like this. Either lower your voice or we can talk once youve calmed down."
> 
> Her anger issues are either legit or they aren't. If you haven't separated legit from unreasonable, lets dig in that spot for a moment. So lets say you have just cleaned up an area in your home and she leaves a new mess in that spot, you say _____________ and she says _________________.
> 
> Fill in the blank.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> sure - its a bit harder to give any recent one because ever since MC, she has not really blown up at me. maybe only a couple times lost her temper and raised her voice. im stepping way out of my comfort zone recently and asking things of her that I would normally just do (and then become resentful about), like asking her to pickup her dirty kleenexes off the nightstand or floor. sometimes when i ask something like that, she will sort of still give a tinge of attitude, as if deep down she is saying "how dare you ask me to do something", but maybe im over-reading it. even still im trying to keep doing it because the resent track has not worked for me obiously, and either is spoiling her by doing it all myself.
> 
> ok the last time she blew up at me, i was sick, in bed, and its early morning. she does the morning shift with baby, breastfeeding etc. normally she doesnt come in the bedroom because she knows im a terrible insomniac and barely sleep as it is, and usually the morning is the only deep sleep i get. plus im sick. well she brought baby in and loudly talked with baby right next to me as if I werent there. even let baby repeatedly bang on the wall, door, etc and didnt tell baby to stop. it was beyond inconsiderate, and its hard enough knowing the when I am sick I am totally on my own (she doesnt ever offer to help me, cook, tea, anything). so I was upset and said "why did you let baby make all that noise I was asleep." I didnt even attack HER i sort of deflected it onto the baby a bit, trying to phrase it nicer (MC told me to do this).
> 
> Wife lost temper and began berating me loudly about unrelated things like "you know im up every morning taking care of baby, etc". I said "i do a ton of stuff for us too but Im not bringing that up, its not related to this." she just left angry, no goodbye, didnt even let me kiss baby bye which is a ritual and super hurtful. typical behavior. theres a million more examples from the past, but like I said, no huge recent blowups. recently the behavior has just been more distancing and ignoring/neglecting. which is sometimes even harder.
> 
> Lets see how today goes. I think the sample pool is a bit too small to say "the 180 is working". yesterday might have been just a coincidence. who knows. maybe she had a good day at work. maybe she fit into some pants she hasnt worn in awhile. I dont know. lets see how it goes. Any advice for how to continue to act? Keep doing 180 I am assuming, but should I ask about how her day was or should I not? She enjoys talking about her day and that usually improves her mood....one of her complaints to MC was that we stopped talking about our work and she felt that distanced us. I agree with her on that. I think she wanted to come home and tell me about her day every day, but because she knows how how I hate her partner and how resentful I was for what happened to her (her behavior changes), that she knew I didnt want to hear about her work anymore. It just made me madder. Thoughts?


Did you feel anger writing this just now?


----------



## cinnabomb

no, not at all. just sadness that I had to endure so many years of that kind of stuff. wish I had the knowleage and help I am getting now, back then. 



Blossom Leigh said:


> Did you feel anger writing this just now?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> no, not at all. just sadness that I had to endure so many years of that kind of stuff. wish I had the knowleage and help I am getting now, back then.


It wouldn't surprise me if you are on a grieving cycle. Familiarize yourself with the grief cycle by googling it. I think knowing what it looks like will help you navigate grieving what you had and transitioning to what you will have. Be kind to yourself. You two have had a significant shift in your relationship and it's ok to grieve the way it was. 

As for the regret over past skills... You know at least you are getting it now. Some people never get it. Count the blessing that you do have now. Let go of the one's you "should" have had in the past. 

I hope you find some comfort in these things.


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## turnera

Stages Of Grief

Come up with an example from a couple months ago.


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## cinnabomb

yea spot on.denial, depression, anger. all that. i went through it. praying to god to make it all stop. im now sort of at acceptance, even though its hard. im now just trying to deal with it all. but yea, i mourned like a loved one passed away. i felt sad all the time for about a year. it was brutal. 





Blossom Leigh said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if you are on a grieving cycle. Familiarize yourself with the grief cycle by googling it. I think knowing what it looks like will help you navigate grieving what you had and transitioning to what you will have. Be kind to yourself. You two have had a significant shift in your relationship and it's ok to grieve the way it was.
> 
> As for the regret over past skills... You know at least you are getting it now. Some people never get it. Count the blessing that you do have now. Let go of the one's you "should" have had in the past.
> 
> I hope you find some comfort in these things.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> yea spot on.denial, depression, anger. all that. i went through it. praying to god to make it all stop. im now sort of at acceptance, even though its hard. im now just trying to deal with it all. but yea, i mourned like a loved one passed away. i felt sad all the time for about a year. it was brutal.


I have no doubt. I know exactly how it feels to grieve a very close loved one while still alive. I grieved my mother. She's very much alive, but I grieved the very obvious fact that any hope of her laying down her abusive ways was gone. Brutal is very accurate. So sorry Cinna


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## turnera

My IC had me grieve for the POS dad I 'got' as opposed to what I wished I had gotten. It really helped me get to the acceptance phase so I could lose the emotion about him.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> My IC had me grieve for the POS dad I 'got' as opposed to what I wished I had gotten. It really helped me get to the acceptance phase so I could lose the emotion about him.


Yea, a lot of us get stuck right there for a long time not realizing that grieving and letting it go will open doors for new perspective and a fresh start in many ways. Create something new.


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## cinnabomb

interesting MC session today. ive come to the realization that I need to set some boundaries and also need to pull back the reigns on "giving" so much, as it causes resentment when I give too much and dont get anything in return. in MC today i made that pretty clear. I said im going to start taking care of myself a bit, and even being a bit "selfish" (not in a bad way), because all I have ever done is take care of everyone and try to please everyone but myself. 

i also said i can only give what i get. im not going to try and initiate romance, date nights, sex, etc as much anymore. i said if wife doesnt want those things then im not going to bother. if she wants them, she can initiate and i would love that, but im not going to force the issue. i feel like I am really growing. MC was very impressed and said this is a huge moment for me, and surprisingly, wife said she feels relieved to hear me say those things. although im pretty skeptical about wife, because she is very lazy about giving anything at all to this relationship, and i think what she is hearing is "now i have to give even less and he has no expectations of me anymore". she used the word "acceptance" a couple times. I dunno. i think she is misinterpreting a bit and hearing what she wants....but time will tell i guess.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> I have no doubt. I know exactly how it feels to grieve a very close loved one while still alive. I grieved my mother. She's very much alive, but I grieved the very obvious fact that any hope of her laying down her abusive ways was gone. Brutal is very accurate. So sorry Cinna


sorry you went through that. i wouldnt wish that feeling on my worst enemies. the inner conflict, feelings of depression and desperation, and constant sadness and despair are awful.


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## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> i also said i can only give what i get. im not going to try and initiate romance, date nights, sex, etc as much anymore. i said if wife doesnt want those things then im not going to bother. if she wants them, she can initiate and i would love that, but im not going to force the issue. i feel like I am really growing. MC was very impressed and said this is a huge moment for me, and surprisingly, wife said she feels relieved to hear me say those things. although im pretty skeptical about wife, because she is very lazy about giving anything at all to this relationship, and i think what she is hearing is "now i have to give even less and he has no expectations of me anymore". she used the word "acceptance" a couple times. I dunno. i think she is misinterpreting a bit and hearing what she wants....but time will tell i guess.


I'm glad you're saying this. Be warned, though, that this still reeks of Nice Guy mentality. It's possible that you really mean it and you'll be fine if she then does nothing. 

But it's also a fair bet that you declared this and are now sitting back to watch and observe to see if she will now 'step up' and 'give' you what you feel you need from her. 

And when she doesn't, you'll return to MC, all butt-hurt, bent out of shape, whining that she's not being affectionate.

In other words, in Nice Guy terms, you just created a Covert Contract: I'm backing off (giving you what you want) so that you, in turn, will/can now give ME what I need. In other words, taking a step IN ORDER TO get a payoff from her. In other words, just another form of control.

Which will turn out just as poorly as groveling.

Hopefully, in the meantime, you'll spend enough time thinking about yourself that you'll realize you don't really NEED her, and you can shed the Nice Guy robe.


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## TheTruthHurts

I think you're right on your assessment of W so do this and if she doesn't give you what you need after 4-5 months, consider your options. By then it will be clear to you what you want and it will be clear to all what she wants to provide.

TBH - sometimes a spouse just doesn't want to provide what their spouse needs. Then it's up to you to decide whether the relationship benefits outweigh the negatives.

Time will tell - and I agree don't set this up as a covert contract. You do your thing and let W do hers and then look objectively.


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## anchorwatch

cinnabomb said:


> interesting MC session today. ive come to the realization that I need to set some boundaries and also need to pull back the reigns on "giving" so much, as it causes resentment when I give too much and dont get anything in return. in MC today i made that pretty clear. I said im going to start taking care of myself a bit, and even being a bit "selfish" (not in a bad way), because all I have ever done is take care of everyone and try to please everyone but myself.
> 
> i also said i can only give what i get. im not going to try and initiate romance, date nights, sex, etc as much anymore. i said if wife doesnt want those things then im not going to bother. if she wants them, she can initiate and i would love that, but im not going to force the issue. i feel like I am really growing. MC was very impressed and said this is a huge moment for me, and surprisingly, wife said she feels relieved to hear me say those things. although im pretty skeptical about wife, because she is very lazy about giving anything at all to this relationship, and i think what she is hearing is "now i have to give even less and he has no expectations of me anymore". she used the word "acceptance" a couple times. I dunno. i think she is misinterpreting a bit and hearing what she wants....but time will tell i guess.


You're learning, CB. The hotter/LD partner has taken the pressure off and isn't smothering or overbearing the cooler/LD partner. Of course, she's relieved, the pressure was too much to handle. Here's a link to a thread about the interaction between the hot and the cool partner in relationships, with suggestions about what it takes to get to a middle ground. One you both can live with. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html 

Your MC is on to something. Pulling back will allow her and you to calm enough to start feeling out where that middle ground is. Keep at it. Don't be rude, just turn the temperature down.

Best


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## Blossom Leigh

Great progress. Be encouraged, many times when the pressure comes off and there is room to breathe, it opens up space to come to you. Her want to has room to come back.


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## cinnabomb

Im just really torn. Its a daily battle for me. 

definitely been doing a lot of soul searching and racking my brain about the situation. there are days (or hours) where i feel hope....i see her laughing and singing songs with baby, and she might be a little nice to me out of the blue, and I think....this is what I want. we could make it. 

Then there are times when she is neglectful, or hostile, or just does something that I really dislike (a big one is that she has let go of eating healthy and exercise the last couple years and has gained probably 15-20 pounds, which for a petite person is a lot. Her mother is fat and not attractive at all and I fear she will become like her), and I'm like WTF why am I dealing with this? I deserve happiness. I dont need this anymore. What does she even offer me? Literally nothing. She doesnt do ONE thing for me...not one. no cooking, no nurturing, no emotional support, no sex, etc. So what am I doing? What kind of a wife literally thinks she doesnt need to do ONE thing for her husband? I dunno....when I think about it I get angry like, does she think this is how normal relationships are? 

I dunno. Im just really torn....I want to give it a chance and hope she WILL start offering something to this relationship, but if Im being honest...I dont see it. I think she likes being the "boss" at work and having everyone cater to her, and I think she thinks home life is like that too. I can't ever see her being nurturing or supportive to me. And yea, thats a deal breaker....thats not a marriage. Thoughts?


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## Lionelhutz

cinnabomb said:


> Im just really torn. Its a daily battle for me.
> 
> definitely been doing a lot of soul searching and racking my brain about the situation. there are days (or hours) where i feel hope....i see her laughing and singing songs with baby, and she might be a little nice to me out of the blue, and I think....this is what I want. we could make it.
> 
> Then there are times when she is neglectful, or hostile, or just does something that I really dislike (a big one is that she has let go of eating healthy and exercise the last couple years and has gained probably 15-20 pounds, which for a petite person is a lot. Her mother is fat and not attractive at all and I fear she will become like her), and I'm like WTF why am I dealing with this? I deserve happiness. I dont need this anymore. What does she even offer me? Literally nothing. She doesnt do ONE thing for me...not one. no cooking, no nurturing, no emotional support, no sex, etc. So what am I doing? What kind of a wife literally thinks she doesnt need to do ONE thing for her husband? I dunno....when I think about it I get angry like, does she think this is how normal relationships are?
> 
> I dunno. Im just really torn....I want to give it a chance and hope she WILL start offering something to this relationship, but if Im being honest...I dont see it. I think she likes being the "boss" at work and having everyone cater to her, and I think she thinks home life is like that too. I can't ever see her being nurturing or supportive to me. And yea, thats a deal breaker....thats not a marriage. Thoughts?


When you are in a calm state (not angry but also not happy because of a recent passing sign of affection) decide how long you will wait until you have given meaningful change a fair chance. 

Personally, given the history I am doubtful that the kind of behavior patterns you have described will change in a permanent or meaningful way, but there are no absolutes and I would be happy to be wrong.


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## cinnabomb

i dont know. we came this far, and Im not the type to walk away from anything without giving it all ive got. But now that I am starting to understand what it means to be an "integrated male", and not a "nice guy", and be ok with taking care of me once in awhile, I started to realize that I was unhappy, unfairly treated, and that I had dealt with it for so fking long because I thought I had no options or maybe thought that all people live like this...like maybe NO ONE who is married is totally happy??? I dont know. 

But I think back to how it was when my wife was humble, working at a normal job, making decent money but not tons, not anyones boss....she was so freaking sweet. she had good days, bad days, normal range of emotions. somedays came home excited about something at work, other days came home crying cuz someone was hard on her. it was normal. she would offer a lot of affection and love, give me attention and I wold reciprocate it all. she would help plan adorable little vacations and find cheap but cute boutique hotels. we werent rich, but we had a great life because we were in it together and would get super excited by even a dinner date meal at a little italian hole in the wall. wed cuddle all night. we had sex at a more normal level and she would offer handjobs to at least keep me satiated. 

the combination of an ******* partner + a harsh industry + a new boss role + lots more money = total disaster for us. Suddenly the sweet humble girl who understood the balance of life was becoming a narcissist, ruthless, uncompromising, and materialistic and image conscious. She started obsessing about stupid overpriced brands and spending lots of money without talking to me. suddenly our home and cars werent nice enough. I get that this happens to a lot of people but I never thought her....Ive always made good money but never changed my thrifty attitude and never believed in materialism as a way to happiness. 

A friend of mine said..."look thats a lot of changes all at once, and for most people, not even just weak-willed, that would be more than most could wrap their brains around and still stay grounded." I relate it to what happens when celebrities, actors, musicians make a lot of money and fame at once. they go nuts. maybe somewhere down the line she will find balance again. I have definitely noticed improvement since seeing this new MC. And I believe there has been some improvement since starting to 180 her. But Im impatient, and everyday I torment myself with "is this going to last???".

It just really annoys me how she is so self-absorbed. Like when she comes home, if Im in the bedroom, she will stay in the living room for the last 3 hours of the evening. She will say hello to me when she comes in, but still stay away. If im in the living room, then vice versa. The only interaction is the obligatory hello and goodnight. thats IT. no talking. no "tell me about your day". And now, after telling her in MC that I am tired of giving so much unconditionally to her, I sort of feel like she is mimicking me....like the 180 isnt working since then because now she is just copying me (she is very impressionable and has a tendency to copy those in her surroundings). is that normal??

sigh. I wish she had some girlfriends or other wives to talk to so she could get a clue about how a wife treats her husband. she doesnt seem to have a clue. she once told me "a marriage shouldnt be work". i dont think she gets it. she thinks you come home and do whatever you want and dont have to give an inch. her mom is VERY lazy, so its not a good role model, and ironically, my wife is super hard working at work, but similarly lazy at home. Once she is at home (aside from taking care of baby), she barely lifts a finger. I often wonder if she didnt have such a high pressure job if she would be a much better wife. I think so. But i cant change that. In desperation I almost write a threatening email to her partner once, telling him how he ruined my marriage. Guess that wouldnt have done anything either. 

feeling discouraged....


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## turnera

Liking your post because I'm happy that you are learning and growing, not because you're in pain. 

Couple thoughts. Almost ALL our choices are based on (1) FOO and (2) our fears. Whatever her fears are, it would behoove you to learn them. Because they, and her FOO, are WHY she has turned into this person.

That, and her interaction with YOU. Now that you are hopefully on your path to end your Nice Guy temperament, you have a future, with or without her. 

Your BEST bet at keeping her is shedding your Nice Guy persona. And even if she doesn't stay in your life, shedding your Nice Guy persona is important for YOUR happiness. 

So chin up. You're getting there, no matter how it turns out.

PS: If you want to know what your wife will be...look at her mom. I have yet to meet a woman who didn't turn out to be a spitting image of her mom (me included - AND my DD25). Whatever influence her mom has, it CAN be tempered by YOUR actions - YOUR refusal to be her doormat. You just might help rescue her with your newfound strength.


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## farsidejunky

Getting your wife to long for your presence, from where you are now, is not an overnight process, brother, as you have eloquently put in your last post.

It took me over a year to get my wife from resentful and avoiding me to wanting to be near me.

Be patient, stay your current course, read read and read some more, give your wife the space and distance to miss your presence, and find your joy in other sources than her.

I agree with Turnera. Your last post shows a promising trajectory, even if it hurts to be on it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

"Is that normal?"



Outside of Hollywood probably for the most part no, but in Hollywood probably for the most part yes. The question is, is it healthy for "her." If she is an ACOA it might not be. ACOA's lookoutside themselves for their identity, so if she is an ACOA being in a Hollywood environment where that is seriously encouraged would make healing ACOA quite difficult. Thats the equivalent of an alcoholic working in a bar. 

I'm still hearing grieving, and that is normal and just takes a while. I'm also hearing fear of who she will be and what this relationship will look like in the future. Will she end up being someone who you can accept I'm sure is part of your thoughts now that progress is happening. But like turnera and farsidejunky suggest, there IS progress. So to help yourself on these rough days through this valley to the other side, it may help to go ahead and settle that question in your mind. "If we get to the other side of this valley and she is not someone I can accept then I will reserve the right to divorce." OR "I resolve, that no matter what she becomes, when we are on the other side of this valley, I will accept my wife, and do my best to let go of who she used to be.". But mind you, not at the hands of an abuser. That is never something you have to accept.

Some of your tension, grief about who she used to be is probably having some affect on your interactions to a degree, so it would be interesting to see how the relationship settles once your grieving is settled, but no one can know how long that will take and shouldn't be rushed. Its very sad she has changed to such a large degree. There is another poster here @john117 who's wife changed to a very large degree after a horrible tragedy in her family. The stress of it cause a part of her to snap and she never fully recovered. Will that be the same story here.. only time will tell.

Be kind to yourself when you can, be patient with your journey. You are just in the valley. Accept this season for what it is, it will pass.


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## cinnabomb

thanks for the support guys. dunno what id do without these forums. sigh....what you said about her ending up like her mom. thats not a good image for me. the crazy thing is she resents her mom but I see her being a lot like her...more and more lately. its terrifying. her mom is overweight, takes 10 pills a day for diabetes and every other health issue, but still sits and plows through fatty pastries and chocolates all day long every day. its beyond disgusting. and beyond that, I find her to be aloof and materialistic and just plain lazy. her mom has never done laundry, never cooked a single meal, doesnt lift a finger. I pictured my life so different...a family cooking together with our child, going to fun places and having adventures, etc. my wife never wants to do anything. all she wants to do is sit on her laptop, binge watch shows, and eat unhealthy crap. 

but if youre right, that means ill become my dad too, and i have striven to NOT be like him my whole life. its the primary reason i am a "nice guy". he was very tough on me as a kid, had a bad temper, yelling at me and my mom all the time. i vowed to never yell at anyone ever again. so i didnt. i never stood up for myself, never raised my voice at my wife, etc. i became the opposite of my dad, aka the nice guy. but i am also seeing myself become resentful and bitter, like my dad. he pushed away his family in a different way. I dont want to do the same thing. the difference is he refused to look at himself, try to change, and I am self aware and open to being a better person. 

if my wife is destined to be her mom, then why even bother at all anymore? I dont want to be with that. is there a chance she can be better than her mom? or is it too ingrained in my wifes head, watching her mom never cook, never clean, be totally selfish and an absent wife and mother, and plow through sweets all day long....is it in her subconscious that that is how she is supposed to live? this is the question thats killing me everyday.


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## cinnabomb

I guess one thing ive been wanting to ask you guys is this:
At what point, if ever, would I sit her down and have a serious talk with her, and say "honey im not happy. there are certain things i need from this relationship and you if we are going to have a future. I want to put it out there. if you think you can change and provide these things, then great. but if you honestly cant, i need to know now."?


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## turnera

How about today? Or the next time you're in MC?


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## Blossom Leigh

I think it's perfectly reasonable. Ilike direct.


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## anchorwatch

cinnabomb said:


> I guess one thing ive been wanting to ask you guys is this:
> At what point, if ever, would I sit her down and have a serious talk with her, and say "honey im not happy. there are certain things i need from this relationship and you if we are going to have a future. I want to put it out there. if you think you can change and provide these things, then great. but if you honestly cant, i need to know now."?


You just started the process to take the pressure off her. This is designed to allow her time and space to decide if your worth following or not. If you're continually asking 'are we there yet', you aren't ready for her to catch up. That's why we say get busy with yourself while she does. 

You just started. This is a long journey that continues through life, not an end. You have a good MC that understands this process. Ask the MC?


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## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> How about today? Or the next time you're in MC?


is it too soon? I mean...wasnt the point to FIRST become more integrated, detach my emotional hose, learn more about myself, and all those things....and THEN get to the more serious stuff involving her? What I mean is....at this point in time I dont think she cares about me, so I dont know if her answer would be honest. Do I first take care of myself so that she realizes what a wonderful husband I am before asking her such a serious question?


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## cinnabomb

anchorwatch said:


> You just started the process to take the pressure off her. This is designed to allow her time and space to decide if your worth following or not. If you're continually asking 'are we there yet', you aren't ready for her to catch up. That's why we say get busy with yourself while she does.
> 
> You just started. This is a long journey that continues through life, not an end. You have a good MC that understands this process. Ask the MC?


this is exactly what i meant...seems like waiting a bit until things are more clear for both of seems best...but it's tormenting me everyday. i am quite sure if i asked her today, her answer might be "i dont know" or "no", or "maybe, i can try" (which means not really). because i dont think that she cares enough to. at this point shes looking at me and saying "I dont need him. i have money. i have fame. i have rich fabulous celebs. i have a wonderful baby. he just annoys me by asking thing of me, like hugs, or kisses, or date nights, or quality time, or sex." i think thats the truth. she doesnt even understand how much I do for her and us. and im flat out tired of that feeling of not being appreciated or having no worth. 

so anyways, where was i?


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## anchorwatch

You were venting to us, and not to her. As you should. 

Did you read MEM's thread about the temperature in the relationship? 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

The sooner the better, brother, because that means y'all are starting to actually communicate. 

That not only gives you the opportunity to say your piece, but for her to as well. And steel yourself...she may tell you some uncomfortable truths. You need to be able to hear her without being defensive.

This is crucial, because if you expect more from her, she should be able to do the same.


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## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> The sooner the better, brother, because that means y'all are starting to actually communicate.
> 
> That not only gives you the opportunity to say your piece, but for her to as well. And steel yourself...she may tell you some uncomfortable truths. You need to be able to hear her without being defensive.
> 
> This is crucial, because if you expect more from her, she should be able to do the same.


totally understand and get this. she deserves to be happy too. im not sure if our needs will align though. some might cancel each other out. like one of mine is that she adopts a healthier lifestyle again, eating better and us exercising, but I think one of hers is that I "accept her" and let her eat whatever the F she wants to....in other words, let her get fat like her mom because thats what she wants. her parents are both super obese and in bad health and I dont want that for me.


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## jld

Do you think maybe you two have just outgrown each other, cinnabomb?


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## farsidejunky

How can your need be for her to eat better and exercise? That is going beyond a need and into the realm of control. This will never change unless she wants it to. 

She is right. You do need to accept her. Or do not, and let her go to find someone who will accept her. All you can do is communicate how it makes you feel. It is up to her to do something about it.

In all likelihood, much of the distance you have is probably related to your lack of acceptance of her. This would explain why she is avoiding you.

But do not fall into the trap of thinking your needs can involve changing someone. That is a fools errand, and will NEVER happen.

The more you post, the more I see that you don't particularly like your wife.

Are you wanting to save the marriage simply to save it, or because you actually love your wife? It certainly does not sound like the latter.


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## cinnabomb

anchorwatch said:


> You were venting to us, and not to her. As you should.
> 
> Did you read MEM's thread about the temperature in the relationship?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


yes i did and it hits home. ive been totally doing 180 recently. i dont know if it is doing much. guess im not sure what i expect either. she has, a couple time, done something like make me tea or give me a fruit, something she never has done before....but nothing much else is changed. I think she genuinely enjoys not talking to me or having me "pester" her with trying to have a conversation or relationship. she seems perfectly content in her own world, with baby and with her shows. 

but then again, in MC she said that she wishes we could talk and laugh again....have that close relationship. but she hasnt done a single thing to initiate that with me. do I keep waiting? do i try to initiate it myself? a couple times I was leaving to go somewhere and I said ok im leaving, and she expected me to not hug her bye (because of what I said in MC about not giving too much to her anymore), but I actually DID give her a little hug and she got very happy and smiled and said "thank you!". So maybe she too is just hiding from her desire to ant to be close...because of fear, or confusion, or whatever. do i continue to pull back? Do i try and set by example?

I will definitely ask MC about my question first.


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## farsidejunky

"Wife, what is stopping us from laughing together more?"

Then shut up and listen. 

Also, notice I said "us" rather than "you" in that sentence. Sometimes all it takes is a subtle change in wording to prevent and mitigate defensiveness.


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## anchorwatch

She can only decide those things for herself. You can want those things for her, but you can't decide for her. 

There is nothing wrong with communicating your needs. There is something wrong with pressuring someone to do as you see they should. Do you think she doesn't know she's overweight? Telling her she needs to lose weight doesn't make her think you care, it says you think she's fat, or worse, she's worthless. 

I believe a cool off period is in order for her to think clearly enough to take care of her well being. If she can't take care of her own needs how could she take care of yours?


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## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> How can your need be for her to eat better and exercise? That is going beyond a need and into the realm of control. This will never change unless she wants it to.
> 
> She is right. You do need to accept her. Or do not, and let her go to find someone who will accept her. All you can do is communicate how it makes you feel. It is up to her to do something about it.
> 
> In all likelihood, much of the distance you have is probably related to your lack of acceptance of her. This would explain why she is avoiding you.
> 
> But do not fall into the trap of thinking your needs can involve changing someone. That is a fools errand, and will NEVER happen.
> 
> The more you post, the more I see that you don't particularly like your wife.
> 
> Are you wanting to save the marriage simply to save it, or because you actually love your wife? It certainly does not sound like the latter.


its complicated, like all relationships. I LOVED her more than anything in the world, for 10+ years. I loved her as much as anyone has ever loved anything or anyone on this planet. If I could show you....the romantic things I've done, the letters and emails, the pictures, the effort, the way I looked at her every night while she slept peacefully and the way I spooned her every single night because it would make her snore and I knew that meant she was enjoying it....if I could show you, I would. I loved her for everything she was. 

Yes, things have changed. and now its complicated. I still love her. there are moments where she warms my heart, something for me, or in general, or for baby. I miss her so much and would truly give anything in the world to fix this. how things got so derailed is beyond me....looking at us now, versus 6 years ago. ***, it breaks every part of my heart. but yes, there are things about her that scare me, terrify me, and that I dont love. There is pain so deep that I am not ready to forgive her for because she has not given me a reason to forgive. she has barely acknowledged it....she has said "i know I was emotionally distant" but thats like calling the holocaust an "unfortunate incident". the neglect and abuse were horrific and ill admit to holding on to that pain. 

and yes there are the other things, like her sudden selfish and egocentric behavior, materialism, and adopting a new unhealthy lifestyle. i dont like those things. they were never part of her. I am battling a huge sphere of influence (her job, partner, hollywood), and I am losing....I realize now that part of me losing was that I stopped saying anything at all to her...stopped "checking" her. stopped saying...."honey we arent like those people, buying fancy crap and trying to keep up with the jones's. we are humble and thrifty." but maybe im wrong and she just changed. maybe this is who she really is. maybe the job actualized her true self which was laying dormant for 30 years. i dont know. 

i dont dislike her. i love her. but yes, i dislike a number of the things she has adopted and become. how can I be accepting of selfish and egocentric behavior? how can I be accepting of neglectful and even abusive behavior? how can I be accepting of watching my wife go down a guaranteed path of disease and illness and obesity, if she continues to eat so poorly and not exercise? would you? i genuinely want to know your thoughts, im not trying to sass you.


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## farsidejunky

I know you are not sassing. You are frustrated.

If you are going to salvage your relationship, you will HAVE to accept her.

I don't know how you can do that, other than to give up on trying to change her and understand that she, like all people, will never be everything you want or need them to be.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> yes i did and it hits home. ive been totally doing 180 recently. i dont know if it is doing much. guess im not sure what i expect either. she has, a couple time, done something like make me tea or give me a fruit, something she never has done before....


Did she not act in loving ways even BEFORE she took this job?

Have you ALWAYS been the only one showing love?

How many women did you date before her? Before she gained weight, was she exceptionally attractive?


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## turnera

farsidejunky said:


> I know you are not sassing. You are frustrated.
> 
> If you are going to salvage your relationship, you will HAVE to accept her.
> 
> I don't know how you can do that, other than to give up on trying to change her and understand that she, like all people, will never be everything you want or need them to be.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I agree, but also disagree. It sounds like you're telling him to just accept being her doormat times 10.

If he's unwilling to leave her at ANY cost, I'd agree with you. But it's becoming clear that he's finally reaching his tipping point. He wants more than to be her servant/slave/toady/everything else. He wants to be her PARTNER.

And he wants HIS Emotional Needs to be met, and Harley makes it clear that one of men's top Emotional Needs - and a legitimate one - is often an attractive wife.

cb, you have to do some heavy thinking. No, you can't tell her to lose weight. You CAN tell her that her weight is causing you to lose love for her. And then leave it in her hands whether she's willing to lose you over it.


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## Blossom Leigh

Yea, it will be interesting to see if her "laughing and talking" translates over to partnership.

I think it is safe to say, due to all the relational changes, that the relationship needs redefining in order to become functional again. The only way to do that is dialogue. So, I'm all for talking and agree, the sooner the better, since old definitions are no longer working.


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## TheTruthHurts

I've held off in weighing in for a while because you've been doing well, doing the 180, distancing, understanding the negatives of being a nice guy, etc

These are your things to work on - keep it up! You're doing amazing.

Don't go back and whine about your needs yet. That's what she'll hear - whining. Sorry brother but that's the truth.

So.. I think you should think about this. Take some object - a picture, trinket from the past... and make it your vision of your wife from the past. Put it someplace close that you can see. When you get those feelings, think if the thing. Maybe put it in a keyring.

Go someplace private and grieve. Let it out. It's ok - but let yourself mourn that loss. It was real and it was awesome. But you can't have it now.

After a while you'll feel better. Once you put that in the past you will be able to let those hopes and expectations die. It's ok. All things die.

If you keep up the 180 and mourn your loss and work through your grief, you'll come out stronger than you can imagine.

That strength and completeness in you will be a powerful change. She may notice - if she does, she will build something new and good with you. If not, you will be strong enough to know what to do


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## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> I agree, but also disagree. It sounds like you're telling him to just accept being her doormat times 10.
> 
> If he's unwilling to leave her at ANY cost, I'd agree with you. But it's becoming clear that he's finally reaching his tipping point. He wants more than to be her servant/slave/toady/everything else. He wants to be her PARTNER.
> 
> And he wants HIS Emotional Needs to be met, and Harley makes it clear that one of men's top Emotional Needs - and a legitimate one - is often an attractive wife.
> 
> cb, you have to do some heavy thinking. No, you can't tell her to lose weight. You CAN tell her that her weight is causing you to lose love for her. And then leave it in her hands whether she's willing to lose you over it.


I agree with you, T, and I am not suggesting he become a doormat, and he should pursue getting his needs met or let her go. But he is going to have to accept that she will have aspects of her personality that may be less than desirable.

Cinnabomb, my wife is also heavier than I would prefer. She is just under a size 14. She never works out. She is still attractive, but not what I would consider ideal. I work out 4+ times per week and maintain a very high fitness level. I wish she would work out. Right at 2 years ago, she and I were struggling. I honed in on her weight and not working out like a laser, similar to you right now. The single largest reason? She was neglecting my emotional needs in the relationship. Now that we are healthier, her weight still bothers me, but to a much smaller degree. Why? Because we are healthy. She shows an interest in pleasing me. Also, I had to let go of my ideal and accept her for both her strengths AND her flaws.


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## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> Did she not act in loving ways even BEFORE she took this job?
> 
> Have you ALWAYS been the only one showing love?
> 
> How many women did you date before her? Before she gained weight, was she exceptionally attractive?


actually i should edit this....something she has not done in 5 or 6 years. before this job she was much more loving and sweet. it just feels like it was a lifetime ago. i dated a few before her but nothing serious until her. she was and still is beautiful. she isnt fat by american standards, its just that after our babys birth, she has put on probably 15-20 pounds, which is a lot for someone who weighed 105. its all in the belly too so it shows a lot....ive even been asked multiple times if she was pregnant. but its not the belly that bothers me that much....its where this is heading. she has completely lost control of willpower with healthy eating and has not exercised in 3+ years. she used to eat healthy and only allow herself a little bit of indulgence. now she eats carbs non stop (a typical meal for her would be like 2 slices of bread, some chips, and some cereal), and the worst part is we always have healthy food in the fridge, like a fresh roasted turkey i made. she is taking the path of her mom which terrifies me....just a gluttonous, lazy, and obese person. her mom cant figure out why she is always tired, and all she does is eat chips and chocolate all day. its so gross.


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## bandit.45

Give it a year. Work on becoming a better man, begin detaching emotionally, and let it play out. Continue on the 180 and see where thins go. If she has not started to respond in any meaningful way, hire a lawyer and stick a fork in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> I've held off in weighing in for a while because you've been doing well, doing the 180, distancing, understanding the negatives of being a nice guy, etc
> 
> These are your things to work on - keep it up! You're doing amazing.
> 
> Don't go back and whine about your needs yet. That's what she'll hear - whining. Sorry brother but that's the truth.
> 
> So.. I think you should think about this. Take some object - a picture, trinket from the past... and make it your vision of your wife from the past. Put it someplace close that you can see. When you get those feelings, think if the thing. Maybe put it in a keyring.
> 
> Go someplace private and grieve. Let it out. It's ok - but let yourself mourn that loss. It was real and it was awesome. But you can't have it now.
> 
> After a while you'll feel better. Once you put that in the past you will be able to let those hopes and expectations die. It's ok. All things die.
> 
> If you keep up the 180 and mourn your loss and work through your grief, you'll come out stronger than you can imagine.
> 
> That strength and completeness in you will be a powerful change. She may notice - if she does, she will build something new and good with you. If not, you will be strong enough to know what to do


really appreciate this post. im a bit confused if im even doing the 180 right. can anyone weigh in here? I mean here is what im currently doing. not really initiating dialogue with her, except the bare minimum. not initiating physical touch. trying not to be needy in any way, whiney, or critical. being direct about something that needs to get done, asking for it straightforward, not begging. taking care of myself. keeping busy with outside things. doing the things I enjoy. not following her around the house. im also not being rude in any way, but i sort of feel like I am sometimes. like maybe not rude, but maybe a bit cold. im not like "having the time of my life" because honestly, im not. im sad. trying my best to remain uplifted, and my baby is a huge source of that....baby brings me SO much joy and happiness, so playtime is so fun. im also not really asking wife or inviting her to join me in anything. not initiating dates or dinner or anything. sort of leaving that to her. am i missing something? am i supposed to be doing something im not? should i be talking to her more? should i be hugging her more? or am i doing this right???


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## Blossom Leigh

Keep working on finding your contentment and happiness regardless of her. Thats what becomes the magnet. I think TheTruthHurts is right. Finish grieving, find your contentment, happiness regardless of her, THEN choose what your willing to live with, THEN tell her IF she cares to know.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Keep working on finding your contentment and happiness regardless of her. Thats what becomes the magnet. I think TheTruthHurts is right. Finish grieving, find your contentment, happiness regardless of her, THEN choose what your willing to live with, THEN tell her IF she cares to know.



i get that, thanks. im just confused about if im supposed to be talking to her, initiating hugs, etc. or to just be totally independant of her, as if she barely exists (sort of how i have been treated for years).


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## cinnabomb

like an exaple...last night i was watching the nba game (one of the greatest games ive ever seen BTW), and baby was with me and we were cheering and screaming with joy every time steph curry hit another one. on one hand it was fun, but then i would get flashes of lonliness at times, because of course as usual, wife was in the bedroom, always displacing herself from the room I am in. it would have been really nice to share that experience together, cheer together, etc. i miss that. but i didnt invite her to join of course. 

afterwards in bed she asked if i wanted to watch something together and we did. i dont feel like she has been cold....because when she DOES talk to me its been pretty nice overall....but i feel like she has been intentionally physically distant. i dont know if its because she think she is giving me the space i want or what. even though in MC i clearly stated that I am not going to be clingy anymore, but i still appreciate when wife reaches out to me. and MC reiterated to wife to make sure she understood....MC said "so what he is saying is that dont misinterpret him finding his independance as he doesnt want to be around you.". who knows if she gets it. 

torn about asking MC all of these things. the hard part about MC is that there are all of these things I want to say, but I dont because some of them will sound "critical", which the MC doesnt like and wife definitely reacts horribly to.


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## TheTruthHurts

Get IC then you can talk about this. Be forewarned - many counsellors svck and won't understand the 180 - if you get one of them dump them. You don't need to hear advice on conflicting approaches at this point. 

When interviewing them on the phone about their approach, summarize what you're doing - trying to get to 50k feet, detach, be less needy and more emotionally independent and strong. Tell them you are looking for IC to help with that. If they don't like that they're not right for you.

This is all about you - nothing to do with W. So this is your program - you own it. The IC can be all yours - if you do decide to tell her then let her know it's private and to help you personally.

You did great during the game! You being content, happy, playing with the baby, expressing your happiness - that's what this is all about. 

When you get pangs of neediness - and that's all that was - rub your keychain item or trinket (I still think that's a good idea to personify your feelings), reflect positively about those memories, then push them aside and be independently happy.

I would be willing to get its working completely! You were such a mess that any change will be noticeable. I bet she was really happy that you could be independent and happy watching your game, but she felt a pull to draw you back to her in bed watching something, that's how it works. And then you can give her the affection when she draws you in - watching to be sure it's not smothering but positive and rewarding.

I bet she is very closely watching you and trying not to show it.


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## TheTruthHurts

I want to be very careful how I talk to you though... When I say "that's how it works" I DID NOT mean you are doing this to manipulate her! Because that is a nice guy covert contract thing and is totally transparent and DOOMED to failure.

I meant if you REALLY do the 180 and if she REALLY has feelings for you she will NATURALLY be drawn toward you to "get a piece" if whatever awesomeness is in you that is happy, content and positive and uplifting.

Confidence is attractive. Neediness is a repulsing force. Primative but true I bet.

This will take a long time but the more you let go of the past the easier it gets.


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## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> Get IC then you can talk about this. Be forewarned - many counsellors svck and won't understand the 180 - if you get one of them dump them. You don't need to hear advice on conflicting approaches at this point.
> 
> When interviewing them on the phone about their approach, summarize what you're doing - trying to get to 50k feet, detach, be less needy and more emotionally independent and strong. Tell them you are looking for IC to help with that. If they don't like that they're not right for you.
> 
> This is all about you - nothing to do with W. So this is your program - you own it. The IC can be all yours - if you do decide to tell her then let her know it's private and to help you personally.
> 
> You did great during the game! You being content, happy, playing with the baby, expressing your happiness - that's what this is all about.
> 
> When you get pangs of neediness - and that's all that was - rub your keychain item or trinket (I still think that's a good idea to personify your feelings), reflect positively about those memories, then push them aside and be independently happy.
> 
> I would be willing to get its working completely! You were such a mess that any change will be noticeable. I bet she was really happy that you could be independent and happy watching your game, but she felt a pull to draw you back to her in bed watching something, that's how it works. And then you can give her the affection when she draws you in - watching to be sure it's not smothering but positive and rewarding.
> 
> I bet she is very closely watching you and trying not to show it.


youre probably right, in that it might be having effects that I dont notice. on the positive side, I actually AM getting more used to being secure with myself. i used to never want to go anywhere alone, or sit and eat alone, etc, but now i take my laptop and work at the coffee shops all the time and get a lot done! its actually really nice. 

also I am in IC with a good guy, but his price is high so im trying to figure out a way to make it work consistently.


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## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> i get that, thanks. im just confused about if im supposed to be talking to her, initiating hugs, etc. or to just be totally independant of her, as if she barely exists (sort of how i have been treated for years).


She is now the mailman. Treat her with the same respect as you would a mailman.


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## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> torn about asking MC all of these things. the hard part about MC is that there are all of these things I want to say, but I dont because some of them will sound "critical", which the MC doesnt like and wife definitely reacts horribly to.


Seriously? Why are you so afraid of what the MC thinks of you?

Do you have a fear of authority figures?


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## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> Seriously? Why are you so afraid of what the MC thinks of you?
> 
> Do you have a fear of authority figures?


not a fear of MC at all. but moreso just trying not to rush things and derail them before they are ready. i feel like me saying these things is almost like an ultimatum...like "here is what i need, either you do them or we are done". and i dont know that the timing is right for that yet. i feel like we are still trying to find our way a bit. i think the 180 is helping. i think MC is helping my wife see things with a better perspective. i think i am growing and learning as a person. so to give that sort of ultimatum too soon is probably not going to end well. im just guessing here...i dont know.


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## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> not a fear of MC at all. but moreso just trying not to rush things and derail them before they are ready. i feel like me saying these things is almost like an ultimatum...like "here is what i need, either you do them or we are done". and i dont know that the timing is right for that yet. i feel like we are still trying to find our way a bit. i think the 180 is helping. i think MC is helping my wife see things with a better perspective. i think i am growing and learning as a person. so to give that sort of ultimatum too soon is probably not going to end well. im just guessing here...i dont know.


It is not time for that because you are not ready for that yet.

Never, ever, EVER play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> It is not time for that because you are not ready for that yet.
> 
> Never, ever, EVER play brinkmanship unless you are willing to go over the brink.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Agree. There is a time and place for ultimatims and they should be reserved for things that are highly destructive in relationships.


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## turnera

But that's not what he said. He said there are things he wants to say but won't because they'll be taken as 'critical.' Meaning, at least to me, he's saying he can't say what about his wife makes him unhappy. I didn't hear anything about ultimatums.


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## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> i feel like me saying these things is almost like an ultimatum...like "here is what i need, either you do them or we are done".


This.

Cinna, it is always okay to communicate your needs. You just need to do it cool, firm and dispassionate, not whiny and angry.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## anchorwatch

I'm sure CB has already stated his needs and wants six ways to Sunday. The problem has been how he's been delivering those messages. He's working on that delivery now.


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## cinnabomb

to be honest, i really have not stated all my needs, because the truth is, it wasnt until i started having some respect for myself and even ALLOWING myself to realize that I had unfulfilled needs, when I even realized what my needs are. i just went along with the doomed ship, hoping that it would turn around or regain course by itself. it didnt of course, it got worse. now I realize that I am completely unfulfilled in so many detrimental ways that unless something changes, there is no hope that we will last. there just isnt. 

I need all of the things that most people need...i need love, affection, attention, sex, companionship, conversation, playfullness, support, collaboration, a friend, a lover, a teammate. i need a wife. I dont have any of those and Im just now realizing it. I dont want to be my parents, and stay together in a bitter and unhappy marriage. we get one life on this planet...why shouldnt we get to experience love and those other things??? am I wrong about this?

as far as my comment on an ultimatum....what I was trying to say was that to HER it would sound like that, because she deems everything as an attack on her...as critical. you are right in that, in thee past, I have not stated things properly....I HAVE been whiney and complaining, and not been strong in my resolution of what I need. I know now the difference. 

However, I'm scared. Im not afraid to say that. I'm scared to put it out there. Im afraid because I know the truth....that there is no way she can change who she is and who she is becoming, nor would she want to, for me. Because the "me" that she sees now is just a guy who does things for her, like an assistant. Not someone she truly cares for. Not someone she would follow to the ends of the earth, or sacrifice everything for. She used to be that person, and the truth is, I still am. Id quit my job tomorrow and move anywhere if it meant saving us. She wouldnt. 

So, Im left in this limbo, it feels like. Taking these tiny steps forward, but barely moving or changing. I guess I feel hopeless right now, thinking about all this. There is a lot I have not said. other things that she has done to hurt me deeply. things I completely justified in my head as "acceptable", but are really hurtful. The more I think about it, the more I realize she is becoming a copy of her mom. her mom severely neglected her growing up. she is doing the same to me and doesnt even realize it. 

I have a fantasy in my head that I will put it all on the line and tell her what I need, and give her the option to move towards those things or lose me forever, and she accepts, wanting to keep me in her life. But Im scared that the answer is no....but each day I am realizing that "no" might be what is needed anyways. It's really hard to cope with. I'm having a rough time, Ill admit it. 

There is something else I havent said because I thought it was too personal. Something that has brought to light some of these things, but also made this process 100x more difficult. I lost my only sibling a few months back, tragically. It has been everything I can muster to keep it together, move on, stay busy, etc. But I break down sometimes. This week was especially hard. Last night I sat, looking at pics of my younger sib on my laptop and began crying, deep heartache and pain. wife sat 10 feet away watching tv and didnt get up to console me for almost 30 minutes, just letting me cry. This is who she is now....just cold and emotionless. Its not what I need.


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## Blossom Leigh

What did she do after 30 minutes?


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## anchorwatch

CB, doesn't she knows you're unhappy. Do you mean you haven't shown your unhappiness with the situation constructively? 

...and her unhappiness, where would you say that comes from?


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> What did she do after 30 minutes?


she finally came over and put her arm around me and sort of sighed and said its ok, do you want to come watch tv. 

this kind of thing has happened a number of times in the last few months. she knows how much pain I am in but doesnt seem emotionally connected at all (ive said this about her in the past that she started to become emotionally closed off about 5 years ago). 

she doesnt seem to even understand or get that I lost my only sibling and that I am dealing with deep pain from it.


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## cinnabomb

anchorwatch said:


> CB, doesn't she knows you're unhappy. Do you mean you haven't shown your unhappiness with the situation constructively?
> 
> ...and her unhappiness, where would you say that comes from?


I think she is blissfully and ignorantly unaware of the depth of my unhappiness, or in complete and utter denial. Lately she has been saying things that lead me to believe she thinks things are vastly improved and there is nothing majorly wrong with this marriage. 

she talks about buying a bigger home and sends me emails for homes all the time. she picked out a 10 year anniversary gift (for herself) and asked me to buy it for her. she doesnt get it, because she isnt the one who has been so severely neglected and abused. 

her biggest complaint or source of unhappiness would be that she feels I have become negative and a downer in the last few years. I dont deny it...obviously....there are 40 pages of notes as to why that happened right here. 

to answer you...no I have not been as clear as I could about the depths of my unhappiness. I put my faith in MC, knowing that this would be a slow process, and let MC take the reigns of guiding us back to safety first, if that makes sense. I put up with this neglect and pain for 5+ years, what another year or so I suppose, to give it a legit chance? 

But I will be honest...im getting to a point where these things need to be said. Im getting to a point where I dont see a future, as is, and need to put it out there. there are just too many hurtful and neglectful things happening every day. I cant live like that.


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## Blossom Leigh

You will have to reveal the depths of your pain... ONLY there will this move in the right direction. I would do it in the safety of the MC office and I would ask them both to be silent while you pour your heart out about the level of pain you are in. 

If you don't it would be like asking someone trying to tug a large ship to shore, but the captain of that ship never told the tug boat captain that the ship is deeply anchored below. 

Your anchor you need to reveal to them is the depth of your unhappiness.

But know... not all of that unhappiness belongs on your wife. FYI It needs expressing, but you will have to sort through the parts that don't belong on her, but she deserves to hear ALL of it.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> You will have to reveal the depths of your pain... ONLY there will this move in the right direction. I would do it in the safety of the MC office and I would ask them both to be silent while you pour your heart out about the level of pain you are in.
> 
> If you don't it would be like asking someone trying to tug a large ship to shore, but the captain of that ship never told the tug boat captain that the ship is deeply anchored below.
> 
> Your anchor you need to reveal to them is the depth of your unhappiness.
> 
> But know... not all of that unhappiness belongs on your wife. FYI It needs expressing, but you will have to sort through the parts that don't belong on her, but she deserves to hear ALL of it.


you know, I sort of have done this, but the second I say anything that sounds like "blame", MC steps in and interrupts. Its sort of hard to explain all of this pain without SOME of it sounding like blame. I also have done a coupel individual sessions with MC and I was able to be very honest about my issues, but I dont know how much of that mattered, as MC is still very slow and methodical about her approach in therapy, and not really saying to wife, "listen...your husband is sad. he needs certain things. how can we move forward and get you to give him some of those things?". All MC is really doing is focusing on our feelings and our parents and history and so on....feels more like putting a bandaid on a bulletwound. like, sure we feel a bit better about us when we leave the session (usually), but the core of what is wrong isnt being fixed and will only get worse.


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## Decorum

"You were only a bird in a gilded cage..."

So sad, sorry cb. Its anybody's guess what level her fear of loss will rise to when she finally hears, "if things dont change you are going to lose me!", from you.

I mean really hears and believes because you take action.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> you know, I sort of have done this, but the second* I say anything that sounds like "blame", MC steps in and interrupts.* Its sort of hard to explain all of this pain without SOME of it sounding like blame. I also have done a coupel individual sessions with MC and I was able to be very honest about my issues, but I dont know how much of that mattered, as MC is still very slow and methodical about her approach in therapy, and not really saying to wife, "listen...your husband is sad. he needs certain things. how can we move forward and get you to give him some of those things?". All MC is really doing is focusing on our feelings and our parents and history and so on....feels more like putting a bandaid on a bulletwound. like, sure we feel a bit better about us when we leave the session (usually), but the core of what is wrong isnt being fixed and will only get worse.


Ask her to not do that. That just for one session, allow you to get it ALL out. The both need to see the rawness of your pain.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ask her to not do that. That just for one session, allow you to get it ALL out. The both need to see the rawness of your pain.


ok let me think about this. i would have to write it all out because I dont think I would clearly communicate everything that needed to be said in that setting.


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> ok let me think about this. i would have to write it all out because I dont think I would clearly communicate everything that needed to be said in that setting.


Don't be too methodical ok? They need to see the emotion upfront center no interruptions.


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## JohnA

I understand why your therapist choses the course of action she has. The past is the future unless we change it. To move forward you need to go though the past. You mentioned an individual session with the MC, did it happened or you are thinking about it? Decades ago when I got married I learned the divorce rates for couples that ever lived together vs couples who had was very small. The why ? Hidden assumptions leading to unfilled expectation. Hence your therapists concern for the past. 

There are other reasons for a marriage breaking down. You have shared many reasons why your's have. Try walking in her shoes, try writing a post/journal on what she is thinking and doing. If you know what a person is thinking and feeling you will be able to better communicate in terms they understand.


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## bandit.45

CB I think you are doing well with the 180 as far as the way you interact with her, but are you following the other tenants that deal with self-improvement and independence? I think you are still focusing too much on her and what she thinks of you or is not thinking of you. 

1) Are you getting out and hanging with friends? Doing "guy stuff" like playing poker, golf, boy's night at the sports bar...that kind of stuff? 

2) Are you getting back to enjoying old hobbies that you gave up when you got married? 

3) Are you working out, getting in shape, lifting weights, and dressing nicer? 

4) Are you exuding a happy, contented air, even when you are miserable? 

The 180 is more than just dealing with a contentions spouse, it is about becoming a better person for yourself. You need to shift the focus on you, because you have been waaaaaaay too focused on her. 

And just my opinion, you and your wife should not be in marriage counseling. Frankly, only a married couple who are honestly committed to improving their marriage should spend the money for MC. Your wife doesn't care enough about the marriage to be getting anything out of it. You are pissing money down the drain. Get into some heavy duty IC and work on yourself. She won't change unless she wants to, and the only way she will want t o is if she thinks she's about to lose you.


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## Blossom Leigh

I like bandit's post and if I were you I would be deciding between the heavy duty IC where you can REALLY let out the pain, you have got to get to the depths of this grieving/pain process and get that stuff out.

or 

Grieving in the presence of your wife and MC.

I'm torn on which you should do because I see benefits to both... BUT, I am *not* torn on the fact that you need to grieve and grieve deep and have an advocate to help you through it to the other side.


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## bandit.45

I don't think he needs to show his wife anything that she will perceive as weakness. This woman has become a tough nut. I think she has just outgrown him. It happens all the time to married men. I don't think she meant to, nor did she want to switch on to a different track from him...but it happened and it is what it is. She is not the same woman he married and she cannot go back. 

Some men can't change fast enough when their wives start to outgrow them. I know I couldn't. I don't think it makes a man less of a man, but many of us just cannot not find a way to fit into a woman's new life when she evolves that quickly. 

If he gets in IC and gets to the root of his pain and issues, then his day-to-day activities and behavior will reflect the positive changes he is making. Maybe she will see these changes (if she is looking), and maybe (if she has not written him off) she may start to soften towards him. 

But like I said before, he should not hold out hope. It is almost impossible to win back a woman's respect once a man has lost it. That's why he needs to keep moving forwards and improving himself, in case he has to walk away from the relationship and end the marriage. He will be whole and strong and able to put her behind him.


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## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> I don't think he needs to show his wife anything that she will perceive as weakness. This woman has become a tough nut. I think she has just outgrown him. It happens all the time to married men. I don't think she meant to, nor did she want to switch on to a different track from him...but it happened and it is what it is. She is not the same woman he married and she cannot go back.
> 
> Some men can't change fast enough when their wives start to outgrow them. I know I couldn't. I don't think it makes a man less of a man, but many of us just cannot not find a way to fit into a woman's new life when she evolves that quickly.
> 
> If he gets in IC and gets to the root of his pain and issues, then his day-to-day activities and behavior will reflect the positive changes he is making. Maybe she will see these changes (if she is looking), and maybe (if she has not written him off) she may start to soften towards him.
> 
> But like I said before, he should not hold out hope. It is almost impossible to win back a woman's respect once a man has lost it. That's why he needs to keep moving forwards and improving himself, in case he has to walk away from the relationship and end the marriage. He will be whole and strong and able to put her behind him.


I agree with most of this. It happened between me and my ex. I outgrew him and he was stuck. I told my current H that whoever was with me would have to be aware that I could outgrow them and they would do best to keep pace with me. I never let my laurels rest in that regard. So I always run the risk of outgrowing my relationships. I'm ill as hell when I feel myself stagnating. 

There are just other thoughts here that make me wonder. 

1.When I read these last posts I can tell he has got some deep wounds from his FOO. And until he faces those and grieves the relationships he thought he had or thought he would have, this pain will remain static. He needs to let this out big time.. Maybe even take a weekend, get alone and just grieve until he has no tears left. I did that once and it was one of the best gifts my H gave me at the time. 

2. When my H had an affair, him seeing my raw pain really affected him and helped him make the right decisions. Sometimes I think we short circuit decision making when the pain is hidden even partially. Sometimes it just needs to be raw. This one is starting to feel that way to me. My gut is telling me he needs to let the damn burst and not worry about what she thinks or the MC thinks. This is about his pain... if they engage well afterwards, great, if not... not his bag to carry.


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## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree with most of this. It happened between me and my ex. I outgrew him and he was stuck. * I told my current H that whoever was with me would have to be aware that I could outgrow them and they would do best to keep pace with me. I never let my laurels rest in that regard. So I always run the risk of outgrowing my relationships. * I'm ill as hell when I feel myself stagnating.
> 
> There are just other thoughts here that make me wonder.
> 
> .


Well...then...why get married? 

I mean, marriage is supposed to be a lifelong promise right?

I'm not saying that your husband doesn't have some responsibility to keep up with you...but what if the roles were reversed and he did a 180 change all of a sudden, and steered his life in a direction you were not comfortable with. Would you end the marriage, or do what you could to adjust your own needs, compromise, and help him reach his goals?

I'm asking this question of all the women on TAM. I'm not meaning to single you out. Because if all women think this way, then the very construct of what constitutes marriage in the future needs to be changed.


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## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Well...then...why get married?
> 
> I mean, marriage is supposed to be a lifelong promise right?
> 
> I'm not saying that your husband doesn't have some responsibility to keep up with you...but what if the roles were reversed and he did a 180 change all of a sudden, and steered his life in a direction you were not comfortable with. Would you end the marriage, or do what you could to adjust your own needs, compromise, and help him reach his goals?
> 
> I'm asking this question of all the women on TAM. I'm not meaning to single you out. Because if all women think this way, then the very construct of what constitutes marriage in the future needs to be changed.


lol... understood. When I marry I marry for life. I didn't leave him because I outgrew him. I realized in the process of leaving that I outgrew his neglect. I outgrew willing to tolerate that. Sorry I didn't make it very clear. In realizing it though I did tell my current H to keep up with personal growth. I saw it as a potential threat to a happiness. I want someone always open to exploring things and himself. That's what I mean by that.


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## Chaparral

In your first post you mentioned how her partner had replaced you in several ways if I remember correctly. What have you done to verify they do not also have a sexual relationship. This thread has many redflags for that.

Other than that she has lost respect for you one way or another. Her pre success behavior shows that. It may simply be because she has out performed you financially. Is she just keeping you because you have become the maid, cook and butler? Why have t you hired domestic help?


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## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> CB I think you are doing well with the 180 as far as the way you interact with her, but are you following the other tenants that deal with self-improvement and independence? I think you are still focusing too much on her and what she thinks of you or is not thinking of you.
> 
> 1) Are you getting out and hanging with friends? Doing "guy stuff" like playing poker, golf, boy's night at the sports bar...that kind of stuff?
> 
> 2) Are you getting back to enjoying old hobbies that you gave up when you got married?
> 
> 3) Are you working out, getting in shape, lifting weights, and dressing nicer?
> 
> 4) Are you exuding a happy, contented air, even when you are miserable?
> 
> The 180 is more than just dealing with a contentions spouse, it is about becoming a better person for yourself. You need to shift the focus on you, because you have been waaaaaaay too focused on her.
> 
> And just my opinion, you and your wife should not be in marriage counseling. Frankly, only a married couple who are honestly committed to improving their marriage should spend the money for MC. Your wife doesn't care enough about the marriage to be getting anything out of it. You are pissing money down the drain. Get into some heavy duty IC and work on yourself. She won't change unless she wants to, and the only way she will want t o is if she thinks she's about to lose you.


1. totally - I hang out with friends probably 2-3 time a week, play sports, plus a joined a bball league, all that. 

2. I would say so - I am playing the sports I love more, and also making a huge career shift to focus on something I am much more passionate about

3. I was making great progress on beingin the gym 3x a week until I got sick and lost 3 weeks. baby gave me a really bad virus. but yes I am doing these things overall, and also decided not to shave regularly anymore. i was sick of doing it everyday and i like having a little stubble (i groom it though). 

4. this is the one I am having the hardest time with. If you read above, you can see that I went through an awful family traume a few months back. add that on top of the state of my marriage and its really a bad combination. I try my best, but I break down into a sad spiral from time to time. im trying. but its hard because im honestly lonely and want so bad to hold my wife in my arms again and feel like its going to all work out. honestly. 

about your MC comment, i actually do feel that wife is committed. I just think she thinks that the main issue is MY acceptance of HER, and MY happiness, and not the fact that she needs to make some pretty major changes. She has not shows signs that she is not committed at all. she has continually said things in session like "im so glad my husband is such a reliable and consistent man, because i know that he will always be there for our baby, and will always be there when we need him." Stuff like that.


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## cinnabomb

Chaparral said:


> In your first post you mentioned how her partner had replaced you in several ways if I remember correctly. What have you done to verify they do not also have a sexual relationship. This thread has many redflags for that.
> 
> Other than that she has lost respect for you one way or another. Her pre success behavior shows that. It may simply be because she has out performed you financially. Is she just keeping you because you have become the maid, cook and butler? Why have t you hired domestic help?


Couple things...what is FOO??

So to answer you Chap, yes her relationship with her partner is inappropriately over the line. they talk about everything personal. he knows every aspect of her life, our babys life, etc. I have told MC about it, but MC has not yet brought it up in session because we are still dealing with so many other issues. As far as it being an affair I highly doubt it....hes much older and fugly, married with kids. But I dont know....

Yep she definitely stopped respecting me along the way. Partly because of her financial success, partly because of her pseodo-fame, partly because I stopped standing up to her and took her $hit, who knows. 

she still wants me around, and not because i do all those things. we actually DO have help, anyways. I think she genuinely does see how much I do for us, not just domestic stuff, and she has said many times what a good father I am and how much that means to her. i adore my baby like nothing else and always take care of that little one when I have to. 

lastly, i feel that I have already REALLY grieved. I have mourned the loss of something wonderful. I have cried and cried many nights. Now, I am past it, but still confused about which direction to go. Perhaps I havent grieved as I should in front of MC and her though. I have certainly cried and voiced my pain....but wife has become so cold and robotic, its like nothing affects her anymore. its sad. she used to cry during sappy commercials and movies. every day. I think ive seen her cry twice in the last 5 years. I dont know WTF happened to the girl I married.


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## bandit.45

cinnabomb said:


> about your MC comment, i actually do feel that wife is committed. I just think she thinks that the main issue is MY acceptance of HER, and MY happiness, and not the fact that she needs to make some pretty major changes. *She has not shows signs that she is not committed at all. she has continually said things in session like "im so glad my husband is such a reliable and consistent man, because i know that he will always be there for our baby, and will always be there when we need him.*" Stuff like that.


This is troubling. Its sounds like she thinks of you more as her employee than her husband and lover. Its sounds to me like she wants to maintain the status quo and not have to worry about the state of the marriage.

And I get it. It is a situation where she is so overwhelmed by her responsibilities at work, having to deal with everyone's sh!t, and then she has to come home to an infant who needs her...

But then, your MC is ignoring your info about about the OM and what you perceive to be her inappropriate friendship with him. That is not right, and one more reason I do not think you need MC. It just seems to me like you are getting shortchanged and sandbagged by this MC. 

I dunno. I think you have some very tough choices to make. You can either learn to live your own emotionally independent life, live with the possibility your wife is carrying on a clandestine affair, concentrating on you and your child, and letting go of the idea that you are going to have a normal life with this woman, at least until your child turns 18.... 

Or you can divorce now now and share custody. 

I mean, I don't see that you have many options here. I feel bad for you because either way you are going to get hurt. The question you have to ask yourself is whether you will be able to live a very lonely life for the next 17 years or so, if you choose to die on your sword and stick it out for your child...


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## bandit.45

CB, try this. Tell the MC and your wife that you are going to take a break from MC for a while. Then sit back and really observe. If there are no notable changes after NOT going to MC for a few weeks, then you will know it has been a waste of money.


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Couple things...what is FOO??
> 
> So to answer you Chap, yes her relationship with her partner is inappropriately over the line. they talk about everything personal. he knows every aspect of her life, our babys life, etc. I have told MC about it, but MC has not yet brought it up in session because we are still dealing with so many other issues. As far as it being an affair I highly doubt it....hes much older and fugly, married with kids. But I dont know....
> 
> Yep she definitely stopped respecting me along the way. Partly because of her financial success, partly because of her pseodo-fame, partly because I stopped standing up to her and took her $hit, who knows.
> 
> she still wants me around, and not because i do all those things. we actually DO have help, anyways. I think she genuinely does see how much I do for us, not just domestic stuff, and she has said many times what a good father I am and how much that means to her. i adore my baby like nothing else and always take care of that little one when I have to.
> 
> lastly, i feel that I have already REALLY grieved. I have mourned the loss of something wonderful. I have cried and cried many nights. Now, I am past it, but still confused about which direction to go. Perhaps I havent grieved as I should in front of MC and her though. I have certainly cried and voiced my pain....but wife has become so cold and robotic, its like nothing affects her anymore. its sad. she used to cry during sappy commercials and movies. every day. I think ive seen her cry twice in the last 5 years. I dont know WTF happened to the girl I married.


FOO = Family of Origin

Just seems like there is "something" to grieve there cinna... I don't think its busted open yet. Could be totally wrong... just my gut talking to me.


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## bandit.45

Listen to Blossom. She's a horsewoman.


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## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> FOO = Family of Origin
> 
> Just seems like there is "something" to grieve there cinna... I don't think its busted open yet. Could be totally wrong... just my gut talking to me.


From him or her?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Listen to Blossom. She's a horsewoman.


LOL!


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## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> From him or her?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Him...


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## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> CB, try this. Tell the MC and your wife that you are going to take a break from MC for a while. Then sit back and really observe. If there are no notable changes after NOT going to MC for a few weeks, then you will know it has been a waste of money.


what do you mean by this? Do you mean if we dont go to MC then she would likely revert back to her old behavior? if that's what you are saying, then I can probably already confirm that's what sort of happened when we missed a few weeks of MC. 

I always notice my wife is a bit nicer after MC sessions, but the longer the time between sessions, the more my wife gets distant and begins the neglect process again. Its like the only reason she even tries at ALL is because she knows we are seeing MC soon so she can put on a good face for MC and say "look what I did!", when in fact its not about impressing the MC, its about being a good partner. 

I feel sad, and guilty. I think about leaving her and it makes me sad not just for me, but I feel genuinely sad for her. I dont think this persona she has adopted is truly her. Deep down, she is very shy, insecure even, and kind. She just adopted this crazy hollywood persona. And the thought of her being out in the world alone, without me, with our baby, feeling sad, lonely, shy....its breaks my heart. Because there are happy moments. There are good days (or at least hours). and those days give me hope...and they make me say..."am I being too hard on her, hard on myself? Should i just accept this and move forward, knowing we will have good and bad days? am I being too demanding for happiness in my life?" I know that im not, of course, but these are honest thoughts. 

but i ask if divorce is the easy way out. or what if divorce didnt exist. we would probably figure out a way to make it work, rather than say "if you arent making me happy anymore im out of here". so these are all on my mind....


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## bandit.45

cinnabomb said:


> what do you mean by this? Do you mean if we dont go to MC then she would likely revert back to her old behavior? if that's what you are saying, then I can probably already confirm that's what sort of happened when we missed a few weeks of MC.
> 
> I always notice my wife is a bit nicer after MC sessions, but the longer the time between sessions, the more my wife gets distant and begins the neglect process again. Its like the only reason she even tries at ALL is because she knows we are seeing MC soon so she can put on a good face for MC and say "look what I did!", when in fact its not about impressing the MC, its about being a good partner.
> 
> I feel sad, and guilty. I think about leaving her and it makes me sad not just for me, but I feel genuinely sad for her. I dont think this persona she has adopted is truly her. Deep down, she is very shy, insecure even, and kind. She just adopted this crazy hollywood persona. And the thought of her being out in the world alone, without me, with our baby, feeling sad, lonely, shy....its breaks my heart. Because there are happy moments. There are good days (or at least hours). and those days give me hope...and they make me say..."am I being too hard on her, hard on myself? Should i just accept this and move forward, knowing we will have good and bad days? am I being too demanding for happiness in my life?" I know that im not, of course, but these are honest thoughts.
> 
> but i ask if divorce is the easy way out. or what if divorce didnt exist. we would probably figure out a way to make it work, rather than say "if you arent making me happy anymore im out of here". so these are all on my mind....



Sounds like you have already done that experiment. 

Sounds like MC is not having any lasting influence on her. People only invest as much of themselves as they are willing to lose, and it does not sound like your wife has invested much. If she was interested in making lasting changes she would have. 

By the way, is that baby yours? Have you done a DNA test?


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## bandit.45

cinnabomb said:


> but i ask if divorce is the easy way out. or what if divorce didnt exist. we would probably figure out a way to make it work, rather than say "if you arent making me happy anymore im out of here". so these are all on my mind....


No it is not the "easy" way out. Divorce sucks. It sucks the bone. It will be the hardest thing you will ever go through, especially if your wife decides to be vindictive, which women tend to do. 

But again I ask you, what is worse. Going through the pain of divorce now, getting through it and moving on towards a healthier life..

...or continuing wallowing in this dysfunctional world you live in, uncertain about everything, anxiety your constant companion, wondering every day if she is cheating on you with this coworker?

What life do you want to live? I know you want your wife back... but you can't have her back. The woman you married is gone.


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## Blossom Leigh

And here is a thought too cinna... That job may not last forever or she could burn out on it. She's bumping up against that seven year time frame that a lot of job area say is when people typically switch.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> And here is a thought too cinna... That job may not last forever or she could burn out on it. She's bumping up against that seven year time frame that a lot of job area say is when people typically switch.


that one is really doubtful, considering its her company (with her partner), and they are doing really well...and even if something happened, 100% she would do something else with him or follow him to another company. hes the issue, more than the job. he literally abused her until she became totally hardened.


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## bandit.45

...her partner....


Do you realize what you wrote? Brother you have been so badly brainwashed by her and neglected that you do not know which way is up. This is a clusterfvck to end all clusterfvcks.....


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## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> ...her partner....
> 
> 
> Do you realize what you wrote? Brother you have been so badly brainwashed by her and neglected that you do not know which way is up. This is a clusterfvck to end all clusterfvcks.....


im not following - she has a business partner, they own the company 50/50


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## bandit.45

cinnabomb said:


> im not following - she has a business partner, they own the company 50/50


I'm confused. Is this the guy you think she is cheating with or is it someone else?


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## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> I'm confused. Is this the guy you think she is cheating with or is it someone else?


i do not think she is cheating, despite that one strange thing about the waxing. yes this is the guy who really ***ed things up. total sociopath psycho. she is with him at office all day, talks to him when she home, etc. hes old and fugly and married. but i hate the guy.


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## bandit.45

cinnabomb said:


> i do not think she is cheating, despite that one strange thing about the waxing. yes this is the guy who really ***ed things up. total sociopath psycho. she is with him at office all day, talks to him when she home, etc. hes old and fugly and married. but i hate the guy.


Well, then...

Oh, I dunno man. 

Sounds to me like she has married her job. Between her job and the baby you got tossed to the wayside.


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## bandit.45

Forget what I wrote before. 

If you begin working on your issues with your childhood, continue making the positive changes that you are doing, do you see yourself being able to fake it for the next 17 years just to be around for your kid?


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## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> Forget what I wrote before.
> 
> If you begin working on your issues with your childhood, continue making the positive changes that you are doing, do you see yourself being able to fake it for the next 17 years just to be around for your kid?


no, i cant fake it. but i still see hope. but im so confused. i cant sleep, i feel sick all the time. im so confused. this would be so easy if my wife was behaving how she was like a year ago or more. but shes trying. she makes an effort here and there to be nicer, reach out, etc.what her motives are for trying...THAT part i dont know. 

but then there are things like the other night when im crying my heart out and dying inside and she isnt there for me....and im like wtf who is this person??? how can someone be so cold. its nnot like we had an argument or something so she is mad. we had NOTHING at all between us that night. 

i know ive cried a lot in the past. mostly because of her. maybe she is so used to seeing me crying she is desensitized. but i think a lot of it is the emotional wall she put up with her job. she stopped getting emotional in general. she never cried during movies anymore. aside from with our baby she never seems to feel anything anymore. but maybe thats not her fault. this was her way of surviving, to put up that wall. she has said in MC that her parents didnt give her love and so she learned to live without it. isnt that sad? it breaks my heart that she had to evolve like that, and the worst part is that its a repeating cycle (on me now, and maybe one day, our baby).

i want to give her a chance. i really do. i want to give her a chance to save this too (if she wants). but im so torn. everyday is a roller coaster ride of emotions. the more i actually think about what she is becoming, what she has done, who she is becoming, the angrier it makes me....the less I want to stick around to see it. if she becomes like her mom (and she already is), i dont want to be around for that. her mother is super neglectful and i see her doing the same to me. i dont want that. it will cause too much resent and bitterness and sadness and anger and thats not healthy. 

but i think about being without her... being alone...or trying to start all over....thats a brutal proposition too. i dont do that well alone. i thin about trying to start all over and meet someone who doesnt know me and im at a restaurant trying to impress them with dumb conversation and im like wtf i dont want that. i dont know. i just feel awful inside, my guts are being torn out.


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## farsidejunky

You feel trapped.

Yet, you hold the key to unlock it. But fear is preventing you.

Your fear is keeping you trapped.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## cinnabomb

im also super confused about how to be in session. some of you are telling me to pour my heart out and grieve, but some of you are saying stick with the 180 ive been doing. pouring my heart out will come accross as complaining or needy or weak. but then again I have so much to say that hasnt been said. im confused.


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> im also super confused about how to be in session. some of you are telling me to pour my heart out and grieve, but some of you are saying stick with the 180 ive been doing. pouring my heart out will come accross as complaining or needy or weak. but then again I have so much to say that hasnt been said. im confused.


Ok... you mentioned the other day that you felt the counselor kept cutting you off and redirecting your session when your emotions were intense. IF you feel like you are stuffing your feelings, stop doing that. Let it out SOMEWHERE.

You HAVE to have an emotional outlet, otherwise those intense emotions are going to come out sideways and in my southern vernacular "It ain't gonna be pretty" It doesn't HAVE to be TO her, you can pick what works for YOU, BUT I do see value in letting her see how deeply you are hurting, so how you let them out is up to you, but bottom line is,* let them out*. Quit walking on eggshells with yourself. Its ok to quit caring about every reaction she has to you. 

The 180 is about finding emotional independence from her. I see these as too different things. Its being able to detach in a healthy way. You have an emotional state and she has an emotional state and right now yours is intertwined with hers and her's is not intertwined with yours.

Are you indecisive in other areas of your life? It appears you struggle keeping these things clear and separate so that you can make decisions. This is why I think you have an FOO issue. "SOMETHING" is keeping you cycling through indecision. I think every time you say "I don't know what to do" you need a pattern interrupt of some sort. Staying stuck in this cycle is probably taking a pretty hard toll on you emotionally and for your own sake, break the cycle.


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## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> i know ive cried a lot in the past. mostly because of her. maybe she is so used to seeing me crying she is desensitized.


Absolutely. Women typically can't STAND to see men cry unless it's for a valid reason like death. And the more you cry, the more she secretly despises you for being so weak.

cb, please start using capitalization and punctuation. Doesn't take that much work, makes it easier for us to read.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok... you mentioned the other day that you felt the counselor kept cutting you off and redirecting your session when your emotions were intense. IF you feel like you are stuffing your feelings, stop doing that. Let it out SOMEWHERE.
> 
> You HAVE to have an emotional outlet, otherwise those intense emotions are going to come out sideways and in my southern vernacular "It ain't gonna be pretty" It doesn't HAVE to be TO her, you can pick what works for YOU, BUT I do see value in letting her see how deeply you are hurting, so how you let them out is up to you, but bottom line is,* let them out*. Quit walking on eggshells with yourself. Its ok to quit caring about every reaction she has to you.
> 
> The 180 is about finding emotional independence from her. I see these as too different things. Its being able to detach in a healthy way. You have an emotional state and she has an emotional state and right now yours is intertwined with hers and her's is not intertwined with yours.
> 
> Are you indecisive in other areas of your life? It appears you struggle keeping these things clear and separate so that you can make decisions. This is why I think you have an FOO issue. "SOMETHING" is keeping you cycling through indecision. I think every time you say "I don't know what to do" you need a pattern interrupt of some sort. Staying stuck in this cycle is probably taking a pretty hard toll on you emotionally and for your own sake, break the cycle.


Ironically I am VERY decisive in regular life. It's just that this process has been super confusing for me. But I think we are finally getting some clarity on the main issues of our relationship. I sent the doc a long email about my thoughts about all of this yesterday and today she brought up a lot of the things I mentioned, in a constructive way, which I really appreciate. 

I will sum them up the best I can:
1. My wife had a distant and neglectful mother and critical and tough parents. She didnt get much love growing up. Somewhere along the line this caused her to learn to not want or need love as much as other people (form of protection/survival). 

2. I grew up with a tough dad who I never got have an opinion with, but a loving and nurturing mom. I longed for a girlfriend/wife who I could share my love with and wanted to get away from my dad, who was too harsh and never happy. 

3. Wife met me, I gave love unconditionally and she too reciprocated. We both sort of "saved" each other from the baggage of our parents. It was a blissful time, many years together, got married etc. 

4. Wife changed job to a brutal industry, got demeaned, yelled at, etc. For awhile she couldnt handle it, but somewhere along the line, something snapped and she became a new person, tougher and emotionally unavailable. She completely neglected me after this happened. Years of eating alone, date nights she was on her phone and email the whole time, vacations same thing. 

5. I tried to vocalize my unhappiness, and she would blow up at me, saying how much work pressure she has and cant just not email. She set no boundaries for work, and never understood the concept of prioritizing us and our relationship over career. 

6. I began retracting, withdrawing, didnt communicate my needs to her, didnt stand up for myself. (Nice guy stuff). I tried being even nicer and more loving. Things got even worse. 

7. We had a baby. This made the situation much worse as we now had a legit reason to have daily conflict and argument. The most brutal 2 years followed, up until now. 

8. Now, she is completely emotionally disconnected and unavailable. She has changed as a person. I am still in pain and holding onto resentment from all the hurt. I am withdrawn. She lives almost independently from me, but she will occasionally make small efforts (since MC, she has tried more), and sometimes I am open and reciprocating, but somtimes (with all of the pain I have been through plus the family tragedy), I am now emotionally unavailable, unable or unwilling to give back. 

9. So its a vicious cycle now. I am in IC, willing and able to improve myself and change, but I said to MC today...."my honest fear is that she is simply not able to change how emotionally available she is. She is not able to start to understand that she needs to put an effort in and "give" to a relationship. It's not really her fault. I get it. It's her history. But the honest truth that I have realized is, that doesnt work for me. It simply doesnt. I need a wife, a partner, a lover...someone who is emotionally open and available and wants to share in a life with me."

10. So here we are. Wife says she wants to make this work. She says she is willing to try. I get the sense that she WANTS it to work, but doesnt fully understand that means she needs to make some actual changes, but time will tell. Wife is open to finding a new IC, and we are both working on things. She says she will work on becoming emotionally available and I need to work on jumping to conclusions when she is not like "shes a monster, shes a cold person, she doesnt care about me, etc". Its more complicated than all that. 

So, now you know everything from a better and more clear perspective, what do you think? I will continue the 180 and my IC and all that I guess, right?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I truly hope she does choose to be all in on learning to be emotionally available. This list is great work. Now just let it soak. Get some rest. Now that she is acknowledging she needs to work as well, this is good. Give her time to wrap her brain around what it means. Right now be patient.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> I truly hope she does choose to be all in on learning to be emotionally available. This list is great work. Now just let it soak. Get some rest. Now that she is acknowledging she needs to work as well, this is good. Give her time to wrap her brain around what it means. Right now be patient.


thank you - yea its pretty nuts that it took more than 6 months of MC and all of this brain racking to get to a point where I finally feel like I have an ACTUAL understanding of the true root of the problems. FOr the first time I think I get it. It was night after night of racking my brain, talking to you guys, talking to IC and MC, and it finally started to make sense. 

Whether or not we have hope is another story, but at the very least, I am grateful that we have an understanding of the issues. It's a tangible starting place. I am learning so much. I asked my wife if she was still seeing IC and she was open about it and said "well I want to find a new one because the one I was seeing was saying negative things about your culture and I felt like it was going in the wrong direction." Very strange that a therapist would do that, but whatever, at least she sounds like she wants to try. 

Im trying to stay tough. Its really hard. Im so needy sometimes. I mean....people need love...and I guess I need more than most. I look at wife sleeping sometimes and want so bad to embrace her. But I dont. Is there a way to embrace without looking needy? Perhaps a quick hug but be the first to pull away, type of thing?


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## Blossom Leigh

Yes, inside your own heart. I hug my H and son many times without ever touching them.


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## TheTruthHurts

Hmmm "your culture"? Thinly veiled racism? Are you two of different ethnic origins? If so, are you 1st generation, 2nd generation, etc? I suppose there could be cultural norms working against you in the background...


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## bandit.45

cinnabomb said:


> im also super confused about how to be in session. some of you are telling me to pour my heart out and grieve, but some of you are saying stick with the 180 ive been doing. pouring my heart out will come accross as complaining or needy or weak. but then again I have so much to say that hasnt been said. im confused.


Pour your heart out....TO US! Not her.

Grieve....cry a river....cry the Amazon....somewhere alone. Not around her!

Say what you need to say....TO US! She's no longer listening.


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## bandit.45

What is your culture?


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## Blossom Leigh

Pondering on your list cinna, its like she started out resembling your Mom and then in a distinct shift has end up resembling your Dad, setting off a spiral of pain left over from your relationship with him. My H and I both have walked that road. The only difference is ours wasn't such a distinct shift, but mixed around certain issues. We both had so much pain left over from him with his Dad and me mainly with my Mom, but also abandonment by my birth Dad and violence from my Mom and Step Dad, that you can imagine we had a LOT to work through. It will take you a good long while to work through where the triggers are and what do do with them. Its great you have a good counselor. One thing I wanted to share is, remember when I said yesterday it felt like you struggle with decisions? I think what I was seeing was you "spiraling." Typically when you spiral into an old trigger like that your old experiences have come forward to your new experiences and they spiral, making thought processes very clouded in a fog of that dynamic. You will catch yourself doing it now and be able to develop techniques to handle it when it happens. The key is recognizing that your wife didn't put the original old stuff there, but she *has* laid new trauma on top of it. As you grieve and work through the old stuff about your Dad, this is the part I suspected was fueling such intense pain for you, you will begin to see the areas of yoir wifes behavior you can live with and those that are absolute deal breakers with more clarity and peace of mind about decisions to be made. Just dont be in a hurry. Be very kind to yourself during this process. It can be brutal.

Yesterday was a big break through for you. Celebrate that success because that was a big one.

You may find over time, that to keep from hurting you so deeply your wife chooses to make good adjustments. Give it time. (without tolerating abuse).


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## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Pour your heart out....TO US! Not her.
> 
> Grieve....cry a river....cry the Amazon....somewhere alone. Not around her!
> 
> Say what you need to say....TO US! She's no longer listening.


I'm trying to sort out my thoughts on this concept of a man not showing emotion to his woman as a bad thing. Are you saying don't because she is seemingly "shut off?". I see her coming around, but is it a timing thing being advocated for or never showing emotions around her at all? I am are confused. Lol.


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## turnera

I think what we're saying is, yeah, show your emotion. But don't go around crying around her, especially about the relationship not being what you want. DO something, don't cry about it.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I think what we're saying is, yeah, show your emotion. But don't go around crying around her, especially about the relationship not being what you want. DO something, don't cry about it.


Yea, I'm trying to resolve these two in my head, because I don't advocate stuffing feelings, nor being a whiny butt, but I do like openness about pain.... just noodling on it and looking at what I've experienced as well. I don't like whiny, nor stuffing feelings, but I have had my H get emotional on occasion and it not make me lose anything for him. So, I don't know... not sure what to think about the difference yet on that one.

ETA: And I also have experienced the pain so large no one person can handle it, so it's best to have a large support group so as not to weigh down your spouse. My H and I both did that and changed to include wider support and it helped tremendously. But we are still transparent without expecting the other to solve the issue. So maybe its being open without expecting her to solve it. 

I don't know... off to ponder


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## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm trying to sort out my thoughts on this concept of a man not showing emotion to his woman as a bad thing. Are you saying don't because she is seemingly "shut off?". I see her coming around, but is it a timing thing being advocated for or never showing emotions around her at all? I am are confused. Lol.


Well, the crying has to stop. He needs to stop whimpering like a baby every time he's around her. I'm not a chick, but if I were, seeing a man cry at the drop of a hat would make me think he has serious mental/emotional problems. 

He needs to go Spock for a while at least and get control of himself, more for his own sake than hers, because if his emotional state is fragile, his objectivity is going to be skewed.


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## bandit.45

turnera said:


> I think what we're saying is, yeah, show your emotion. But don't go around crying around her, especially about the relationship not being what you want. DO something, don't cry about it.


Thank you.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I'm trying to resolve these two in my head, because I don't advocate stuffing feelings, nor being a whiny butt, but I do like openness about pain.... just noodling on it and looking at what I've experienced as well. I don't like whiny, nor stuffing feelings, but I have had my H get emotional on occasion and it not make me lose anything for him. So, I don't know... not sure what to think about the difference yet on that one.
> 
> ETA: And I also have experienced the pain so large no one person can handle it, so it's best to have a large support group so as not to weigh down your spouse. My H and I both did that and changed to include wider support and it helped tremendously. But we are still transparent without expecting the other to solve the issue. So maybe its being open without expecting her to solve it.
> 
> I don't know... off to ponder


But from what OP describes, it sounds to me like he is dumping his pain on her. Not just the pain she causes him with her coldness, but all the unresolved detritus from his fvcked up childhood. He needs to deal with his FOO issues before he can fix his marriage.


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## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Well, the crying has to stop. He needs to stop whimpering like a baby every time he's around her. I'm not a chick, but if I were, seeing a man cry at the drop of a hat would make me think he has serious mental/emotional problems.
> 
> He needs to go Spock for a while at least and get control of himself, more for his own sake than hers, because if his emotional state is fragile, his objectivity is going to be skewed.


agree, frequency would be an issue 

I think where we differ is I don't think the crying has to "stop" 

I think he needs to be strategic about it.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Pondering on your list cinna, its like she started out resembling your Mom and then in a distinct shift has end up resembling your Dad, setting off a spiral of pain left over from your relationship with him. My H and I both have walked that road. The only difference is ours wasn't such a distinct shift, but mixed around certain issues. We both had so much pain left over from him with his Dad and me mainly with my Mom, but also abandonment by my birth Dad and violence from my Mom and Step Dad, that you can imagine we had a LOT to work through. It will take you a good long while to work through where the triggers are and what do do with them. Its great you have a good counselor. One thing I wanted to share is, remember when I said yesterday it felt like you struggle with decisions? I think what I was seeing was you "spiraling." Typically when you spiral into an old trigger like that your old experiences have come forward to your new experiences and they spiral, making thought processes very clouded in a fog of that dynamic. You will catch yourself doing it now and be able to develop techniques to handle it when it happens. The key is recognizing that your wife didn't put the original old stuff there, but she *has* laid new trauma on top of it. As you grieve and work through the old stuff about your Dad, this is the part I suspected was fueling such intense pain for you, you will begin to see the areas of yoir wifes behavior you can live with and those that are absolute deal breakers with more clarity and peace of mind about decisions to be made. Just dont be in a hurry. Be very kind to yourself during this process. It can be brutal.
> 
> Yesterday was a big break through for you. Celebrate that success because that was a big one.
> 
> You may find over time, that to keep from hurting you so deeply your wife chooses to make good adjustments. Give it time. (without tolerating abuse).


blossom you hit it right on the head. I honestly dont know how to stop "spiraling". My wife will do one thing that is upsetting, and suddenly I am beating myself up all day, thinking about divorce....and not just the concept of divorce, but the actual logistics and details of what my life would be like without her. It's awful. I wish I could stop. Any advice on how to stop this type of negative mental process? 

I mean, I know WHY I do it....I have experienced a lot of pain. Years of it. And I have reached a breaking point of sorts, so it's like I am just trying to save myself from any more pain by saying "if she does any of things that are deal breakers, we are done"....but is that giving our relationship a fair chance? I think it isn't. But then again, I am the one who found our MC, all of them, and I am the one who is desperately trying to change myself, give her a chance, etc. So I feel like I HAVE given us a chance. 

I still feel hopeful...somedays. Today, I feel hopeful because we had a really productive session yesterday. A lot came out of it. My wife did say one thing that was a little unnerving. When I said "I get why she is this way. I'm not even blaming her anymore, completely. But my point is that her being emotionally walled up and distant just simply doesnt work for me. Thats the honest truth." When I said that she reiterated it and said "So if he is right and this is how I am and there is no way for me to give him what he needs, then why are we even trying? Why don't we just call it quits?". It's that attitude that makes me think "she doesnt even care to try." Maybe I'm wrong, but I dont know. 

I noticed she is in a better mood when she gets to talk about her day. It's something she really needs and enjoys and I take some responsibility for cutting communication with her (you know why I did it), but I am going to try to open dialogue more and see if the domino effect is positive. Perhaps talking about her day with me brings her closer to me in her mind, and that releases a more positive vibe and association with me, and that makes her want to be a better partner. Its a fantasy, I know, but it's worth trying, no?

I want to comment on the crying thing. In the past, I have cried a lot, and although I tried to hide it from her, sometimes I didn't. It was a mistake. I was in severe pain and didn't know how to cope. I guess a part of me wanted her to see the pain she was causing me, hoping that a visual cue like that might give her a reality check about her behavior. I was wrong. But I very rarely cry in front of her any more. In session we both cry from time to time, but that's normal. And about me crying the other night, well, I'm not going to defend that and hope that none of you ever have to go through that either. It's a tough time.


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## Blossom Leigh

Will respond in a little while.. there is a way to stop the spiral and I will share it when I get back from getting my son.


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> blossom you hit it right on the head. I honestly dont know how to stop "spiraling". *It's ok  You'll get it over time.*
> 
> My wife will do one thing that is upsetting, and suddenly I am beating myself up all day, thinking about divorce....and not just the concept of divorce, but the actual logistics and details of what my life would be like without her. It's awful. *I know, it feels miserable to experience these triggers and then spiral for a long time* I wish I could stop. *Totally understand, because it's miserable* Any advice on how to stop this type of negative mental process? *Yes, and it has many layers which I will get to below.*
> 
> I mean, I know WHY I do it....I have experienced a lot of pain. Years of it. And I have reached a breaking point of sorts, so it's like I am just trying to save myself from any more pain by saying "if she does any of things that are deal breakers, we are done"....but is that giving our relationship a fair chance? *Not a full chance, no.* I think it isn't. But then again, I am the one who found our MC, all of them, and I am the one who is desperately trying to change myself, give her a chance, etc. So I feel like I HAVE given us a chance. *Yes, when one person heals many times the other one chooses to as well, so consider it a gift for you both*
> 
> I still feel hopeful...somedays. Today, I feel hopeful because we had a really productive session yesterday. *Agree!!* A lot came out of it. My wife did say one thing that was a little unnerving. When I said "I get why she is this way. I'm not even blaming her anymore, completely. But my point is that her being emotionally walled up and distant just simply doesnt work for me. Thats the honest truth." When I said that she reiterated it and said "So if he is right and this is how I am and there is no way for me to give him what he needs, then why are we even trying? Why don't we just call it quits?".*because right now she doesn't see a way forward, but given the work that is being done here it gives the opportunity for one to rise to the surface to happen, then she can choose to accept the path or not at that point, but for now don't fret too hard over that statement* It's that attitude that makes me think "she doesnt even care to try." Maybe I'm wrong, but I dont know. *pause opinion on that until more time has passed*
> 
> I noticed she is in a better mood when she gets to talk about her day. It's something she really needs and enjoys and I take some responsibility for cutting communication with her (you know why I did it), but I am going to try to open dialogue more and see if the domino effect is positive. Perhaps talking about her day with me brings her closer to me in her mind, and that releases a more positive vibe and association with me, and that makes her want to be a better partner. Its a fantasy, I know, but it's worth trying, no? *I don't see a problem with diving into the nuances of her day.*
> 
> I want to comment on the crying thing. In the past, I have cried a lot, and although I tried to hide it from her, sometimes I didn't. It was a mistake. I was in severe pain and didn't know how to cope. I guess a part of me wanted her to see the pain she was causing me, hoping that a visual cue like that might give her a reality check about her behavior. I was wrong. But I very rarely cry in front of her any more. In session we both cry from time to time, but that's normal. And about me crying the other night, well, I'm not going to defend that and hope that none of you ever have to go through that either. It's a tough time.*Yea, I think there is a different between sharing pain and laying those emotions on someone, I think that is the dynamic we are all chit chatting about. One is suffocating and the other isn't.*


Ok.. triggers and spiraling... 

First of all this is just my experience and how I handled it and it was a blend of past work and current work. It is very important to begin to tell the difference between old trauma and new trauma.

First of all when old trauma is present it can be triggered in a current event whether that current event is abusive or not. And this is the tricky part about it. There have been times that I felt triggered with my H, and as my brain was screaming at me in a trigger from my past, I developed the ability to look at him and tell when he was intentionally abusive or whether that was ONLY MY trigger screaming at me. During those times that my trigger was running I would tell myself, "I know he loves me" and I would try to isolate the trigger and I would not lay that on my H and I would tell him... it's ok, it's not you it's a trigger I've got to work through. Now... that led to me having to work through the issues with my Mom. I had to accept her limited abilities to have a relationship and to grieve the Mother I wish I had had. I also had to let go of the hope that it would ever change. So the old work is grieving, acceptance and choosing not to lay that on my H.

Then the next phase of handling triggers and spiraling... over time I realized there were behaviors my H was choosing that WAS adding to the trauma. See there are two ways in which old trauma can be triggered, when it looks like that old behavior and when it IS that old behavior. For instance, with your wife, it's more neglectful and harsh like your Dad if I am remembering correctly. This may be where your deal breakers are, but working through your Dad issues first will help you isolate more accurately IF these things in her are truly deal breakers, allow you time to voice them accurately to her and allow her the choice of what to do about it.

But as far as the spiraling... self awareness, allowing yourself the time to work through the trigger and letting other's know "it's not you, let me go work on this trigger and then we can talk some more," putting voice to it in other words, accepting, grieving and letting go of false hope where your Dad is concerned, and then begin isolating when someone is causing new legitimate trauma, choosing to navigate that differently going forward are all ways to deal with it. In a moment to moment, I would tell myself "I am loved, I am safe, I am deeply unique." Breathing, being good and kind to yourself, cultivating a deeper level of patience and flexibility. Like I said... many layers and it will take some experimentation to find what is effective with you. Your counselor will be a big help in this area 

Hope what I've shared helps in some way


----------



## Chaparral

I think until you find out whats going on with her partner you have no foundation to work from. From your description, he is your polar opposite. You say he was abusive to her and she basically had to change to defend herself. He presents strong will and alpha traits. You are displaying a male thats weak and needy. Your description of him being old and ugly mean nothing, he's powerful and rich. Women love that. You would not believe the number of men that come here in disbelief of how much better they are than the jerk their wife is having an affair with.

He has trained your wife to be the person he wants her to be.

You have to get into detective mode to confirm that this is or is not your problem. Has your sex life changed since she started this partnership? Do they have to travel together for the job?

Why did you mention a difference in your culture?


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok.. triggers and spiraling...
> 
> First of all this is just my experience and how I handled it and it was a blend of past work and current work. It is very important to begin to tell the difference between old trauma and new trauma.
> 
> First of all when old trauma is present it can be triggered in a current event whether that current event is abusive or not. And this is the tricky part about it. There have been times that I felt triggered with my H, and as my brain was screaming at me in a trigger from my past, I developed the ability to look at him and tell when he was intentionally abusive or whether that was ONLY MY trigger screaming at me. During those times that my trigger was running I would tell myself, "I know he loves me" and I would try to isolate the trigger and I would not lay that on my H and I would tell him... it's ok, it's not you it's a trigger I've got to work through. Now... that led to me having to work through the issues with my Mom. I had to accept her limited abilities to have a relationship and to grieve the Mother I wish I had had. I also had to let go of the hope that it would ever change. So the old work is grieving, acceptance and choosing not to lay that on my H.
> 
> Then the next phase of handling triggers and spiraling... over time I realized there were behaviors my H was choosing that WAS adding to the trauma. See there are two ways in which old trauma can be triggered, when it looks like that old behavior and when it IS that old behavior. For instance, with your wife, it's more neglectful and harsh like your Dad if I am remembering correctly. This may be where your deal breakers are, but working through your Dad issues first will help you isolate more accurately IF these things in her are truly deal breakers, allow you time to voice them accurately to her and allow her the choice of what to do about it.
> 
> But as far as the spiraling... self awareness, allowing yourself the time to work through the trigger and letting other's know "it's not you, let me go work on this trigger and then we can talk some more," putting voice to it in other words, accepting, grieving and letting go of false hope where your Dad is concerned, and then begin isolating when someone is causing new legitimate trauma, choosing to navigate that differently going forward are all ways to deal with it. In a moment to moment, I would tell myself "I am loved, I am safe, I am deeply unique." Breathing, being good and kind to yourself, cultivating a deeper level of patience and flexibility. Like I said... many layers and it will take some experimentation to find what is effective with you. Your counselor will be a big help in this area
> 
> Hope what I've shared helps in some way


this is amazing stuff, thank you BL. My dillemma right now is whether to continue the 180 that I was doing, or to do more of the "connecting" that MC wanted us to do. It's really hard to understand what to do. People here and on my Nice Guy forum are saying to do the 180, not give much to this right now, and focus on me, etc. But after our last session wife made it clear that when I am distant like I have been, that it makes it harder for her to give and want to give anything to the relationship. When I am distant it only provokes her "defense mechanism" of putting up walls and distance. Apparently 180 doesnt seem to work well on her. Or perhaps Im not doing it right. Im very confused. 

Wife wants me to be in a more open and happy mood when she gets home, ask her about her day, etc. But many of the forum people are telling me to 180 her and not give much or initiate much at all. This is my dilemma.


----------



## cinnabomb

Chaparral said:


> I think until you find out whats going on with her partner you have no foundation to work from. From your description, he is your polar opposite. You say he was abusive to her and she basically had to change to defend herself. He presents strong will and alpha traits. You are displaying a male thats weak and needy. Your description of him being old and ugly mean nothing, he's powerful and rich. Women love that. You would not believe the number of men that come here in disbelief of how much better they are than the jerk their wife is having an affair with.
> 
> He has trained your wife to be the person he wants her to be.
> 
> You have to get into detective mode to confirm that this is or is not your problem. Has your sex life changed since she started this partnership? Do they have to travel together for the job?
> 
> Why did you mention a difference in your culture?


youre right about him - I dont know how she truly feels about him and doubt any attraction, but there is CERTAINLY a deep respect for him, admiration even. 

the culture thing isnt important. we have different cultures, thats all, and her IC said something she didnt like that was negative about my culture (SE asian).


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## EVG39

CB, as someone who posted on your thread early on I wanted to jump in now and tell you that I find your progress over the past few week nothing short of amazing. In particular your implementation of a very limited 180 and beginning to put Doc Glover's ideas into practice has pushed both your wife and your MC out of their comfort zone. They need to put you back in the box because your push toward autonomy is scary to them. If you keep on like this you are not going to be a man who accepts being marginalized in his own marriage. You'll be a tough nut to crack. That should tell all you need to know about the rightness of your path. As they said when I was a wee lad, keep on a-truck in'!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> this is amazing stuff, thank you BL. My dillemma right now is whether to continue the 180 that I was doing, or to do more of the "connecting" that MC wanted us to do. It's really hard to understand what to do. People here and on my Nice Guy forum are saying to do the 180, not give much to this right now, and focus on me, etc. But after our last session wife made it clear that when I am distant like I have been, that it makes it harder for her to give and want to give anything to the relationship. When I am distant it only provokes her "defense mechanism" of putting up walls and distance. Apparently 180 doesnt seem to work well on her. Or perhaps Im not doing it right. Im very confused.
> 
> Wife wants me to be in a more open and happy mood when she gets home, ask her about her day, etc. But many of the forum people are telling me to 180 her and not give much or initiate much at all. This is my dilemma.


Very welcome. If the 180 is making her wall off, stop doing it. Thats heading in the opposite direction you want to head. I can understand wanting a lighter atmosphere at home. Dont fake it, but definitely do a "working perspective" in order to facilitate that. What I mean by that is, there were sometimes we would "pause" trying to resolve our issues in order to create new, fun, healthy, connected memories and I would literally say to myself "Rome wasn't built in a day, today lets just focus on the fun." We would play board games, get out and go to our favorite spots or pick favorite shows. These problems dont have to be hammered on daily and you will find you will want to pace yourself and take breaks. Reconcilliation is exhausting AND time consuming, So, its ok to choose a time frame to just relax, enjoy each other and connect. Intentional play if you will


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## cinnabomb

EVG39 said:


> CB, as someone who posted on your thread early on I wanted to jump in now and tell you that I find your progress over the past few week nothing short of amazing. In particular your implementation of a very limited 180 and beginning to put Doc Glover's ideas into practice has pushed both your wife and your MC out of their comfort zone. They need to put you back in the box because your push toward autonomy is scary to them. If you keep on like this you are not going to be a man who accepts being marginalized in his own marriage. You'll be a tough nut to crack. That should tell all you need to know about the rightness of your path. As they said when I was a wee lad, keep on a-truck in'!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


wow thanks for this. I gotta be honest, sometimes I feel like I haven't made any GD progress at all. Any advice on 180 vs opening up the lines with wife more?


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Very welcome. If the 180 is making her wall off, stop doing it. Thats heading in the opposite direction you want to head. I can understand wanting a lighter atmosphere at home. Dont fake it, but definitely do a "working perspective" in order to facilitate that. What I mean by that is, there were sometimes we would "pause" trying to resolve our issues in order to create new, fun, healthy, connected memories and I would literally say to myself "Rome wasn't built in a day, today lets just focus on the fun." We would play board games, get out and go to our favorite spots or pick favorite shows. These problems dont have to be hammered on daily and you will find you will want to pace yourself and take breaks. Reconcilliation is exhausting AND time consuming, So, its ok to choose a time frame to just relax, enjoy each other and connect. Intentional play if you will


Right, right. I think the key (correct me if I'm wrong), for my situation might be: Finding the healthy balance between being my own man, less needy and dependent, and being an "integrated male", and also being positive and supportive of wife and the things that she needs to be more positive and happy. 

But this is definitely a tall order, as I'm not sure if this is even right or how to do this. Doing just the 180 is more polarizing and easier. Doing the "be super nice to wife" is much easier as well (though as I have learned, not really effective). 

It's wierd isnt it? Wife is telling me she wants me to be more positive and nicer, but then everyone says "you being too nice made these issues worse and pushed wife away." Then WTF is going on? Perhaps wife doesnt even know what she wants (or at least know what she is attracted to, deep down). 

Great. Now I'm confused all over again :surprise:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Right, right. I think the key (correct me if I'm wrong), for my situation might be: Finding the healthy balance between being my own man, less needy and dependent, and being an "integrated male", and also being positive and supportive of wife and the things that she needs to be more positive and happy.
> 
> But this is definitely a tall order, as I'm not sure if this is even right or how to do this. Doing just the 180 is more polarizing and easier. Doing the "be super nice to wife" is much easier as well (though as I have learned, not really effective).
> 
> It's wierd isnt it? Wife is telling me she wants me to be more positive and nicer, but then everyone says "you being too nice made these issues worse and pushed wife away." Then WTF is going on? Perhaps wife doesnt even know what she wants (or at least know what she is attracted to, deep down).
> 
> Great. Now I'm confused all over again :surprise:


Lol... Sorry. No, you've got it cinna... Own your manhood without being needy. You do have a need right now, in that you need to process things about your Dad, but you can't get that from her. You can still be kind and fun without being a suck up. Its absolutely a balance.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And there were times I 180'd my H. I just didnt keep it full on all the time. I would modulate it. Everyone finds their own rhythm with it.


----------



## anchorwatch

Are you her husband? Is she your wife? Shouldn't you be there for her? 

I don't mean when she's fit testing you for control. I mean when you both need to connect. Use to 180 as it fits your situation. It's balance of caring and boundaries. It's very hard to get your footing when the seas of resentments are high. Keep improving, keep using your MC, you will find calmer seas. 

@Blossom Leigh is right, you'll find your own rhythm over time.

Here's some reading that incorporates both the ideas of boundaries and intimacy. 

Hold on to Your NUTs

Boundaries in Marriage


The Way of the Superior Man


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> I think until you find out whats going on with her partner you have no foundation to work from. From your description, he is your polar opposite. You say he was abusive to her and she basically had to change to defend herself. He presents strong will and alpha traits. You are displaying a male thats weak and needy. Your description of him being old and ugly mean nothing, he's powerful and rich. Women love that. You would not believe the number of men that come here in disbelief of how much better they are than the jerk their wife is having an affair with.
> 
> He has trained your wife to be the person he wants her to be.


This is vital information. She is his ... slave? Mentee? Student? 

There's a connection there that you maybe haven't explored. 

At least bring it up with the MC.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> It's wierd isnt it? Wife is telling me she wants me to be more positive and nicer, but then everyone says "you being too nice made these issues worse and pushed wife away." Then WTF is going on? Perhaps wife doesnt even know what she wants (or at least know what she is attracted to, deep down).
> 
> Great. Now I'm confused all over again :surprise:


You're confusing her being positive and nice with OUR being nice - aka being a Nice Guy.

Everyone can be nice. 

It is COMPLETELY different from being a Nice Guy. A Nice Guy does 'things' for his wife SO THAT she will then do things for him.

Being nice means that you're just a person who is kind to people. Who makes being around you an enjoyable thing.

Do you see the difference?


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> You're confusing her being positive and nice with OUR being nice - aka being a Nice Guy.
> 
> Everyone can be nice.
> 
> It is COMPLETELY different from being a Nice Guy. A Nice Guy does 'things' for his wife SO THAT she will then do things for him.
> 
> Being nice means that you're just a person who is kind to people. Who makes being around you an enjoyable thing.
> 
> Do you see the difference?


yup i get it.


----------



## cinnabomb

anchorwatch said:


> Are you her husband? Is she your wife? Shouldn't you be there for her?
> 
> I don't mean when she's fit testing you for control. I mean when you both need to connect. Use to 180 as it fits your situation. It's balance of caring and boundaries. It's very hard to get your footing when the seas of resentments are high. Keep improving, keep using your MC, you will find calmer seas.
> 
> @Blossom Leigh is right, you'll find your own rhythm over time.
> 
> Here's some reading that incorporates both the ideas of boundaries and intimacy.
> 
> Hold on to Your NUTs
> 
> Boundaries in Marriage
> 
> 
> The Way of the Superior Man


thanks for the book references, and this info helps. I was just confused about this whole 180 thing. That's why I am here...to learn.


----------



## EVG39

cinnabomb said:


> wow thanks for this. I gotta be honest, sometimes I feel like I haven't made any GD progress at all. Any advice on 180 vs opening up the lines with wife more?


CB, I would keep mining Glover including talking to guys on the NMMNG message board but I also can vouch for anchorwatch's recommendation of Deida's _Way ot the Superior Man_

Deida isn't for everybody by a long shot and I sure didn't take everything he said as gospel but what he gets right he gets really right and especially one thing he gets right is his concept of the masculine/female polarity and that if you wish to draw the feminine from your lover you must do it from your masculine. 
Deida's very much a new ager and not a Christian so its kind of surprising when he starts making this argument but its probably more effective since you know he is not beholden to any tradition. I told you early on that getting more in touch with your masculinity was critical fro you as I really believe your wife has usurped the masculine role in your marriage and it is making both of your very unhappy. 
And while know Glover is big on getting back in touch with your masculinity as well I bet if you hear it again from Deida even more explicitly it would clarify the message a bit more. I need that kind of thing a lot myself. Read Deida and see. All you have to lose is some time and a few bucks, but you might gain a lot. I know I did. 
Good Luck


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> is it too soon? I mean...wasnt the point to FIRST become more integrated, detach my emotional hose, learn more about myself, and all those things....and THEN get to the more serious stuff involving her? What I mean is....at this point in time I dont think she cares about me, so I dont know if her answer would be honest. Do I first take care of myself so that she realizes what a wonderful husband I am before asking her such a serious question?


When your wife and your marriage is not taking up the main space in your thinking. Right now, it is always in the forefront of your mind. Get to a place where you are stabilized in yourself. Learn to set healthy boundaries and know what is and is not acceptable. At this point, you are very new to the process of learning healthy boundaries. It has to be about you learning and growing as a person, not about your marriage. Once you are in a better place and you aren't adding to the problems, you can take the next step in seeing how your wife fits into you being healthy - or not.

Part of this is doing things within your own realm of responsibility. For example, she leaves a mess. Don't touch it. Let her deal with her mess. Yes, there comes a point where it infringes on you, so maybe it would be wise to hire a housekeeping to come in once or twice a week to do laundry, do the floors, clean up tissues, clean the bathrooms, take out the garbage, etc. Don't take on her responsibilities until it impacts you. This may mean learning to live in a less than pristine environment. That takes getting used to.



cinnabomb said:


> totally understand and get this. she deserves to be happy too. im not sure if our needs will align though. some might cancel each other out. like one of mine is that she adopts a healthier lifestyle again, eating better and us exercising, but I think one of hers is that I "accept her" and let her eat whatever the F she wants to....in other words, let her get fat like her mom because thats what she wants. her parents are both super obese and in bad health and I dont want that for me.


You already know you cannot control her. If she wants to be fat, that is up to her. You decide whether you are willing to accept that or not. Maybe you are. Maybe you aren't. But don't think you can make her into what you want her to be or make her go back to how she was when you fell in love with her. She isn't that person anymore. You decide if you want her or not.

You also asked a questions somewhere about hugs. Should you initiate hugs? I would say that since her response has been positive and if you want a hug, then yes, hug her. Pleasant interaction is not against the 180 as long as it is mutual. Part of the idea is that the relationship is mutual, rather than you giving and asking and constantly pursuing without connecting. If you are not connecting, then don’t continue with a behavior that isn’t bringing about connection. Only do those things which you can see are building and bring connection.



cinnabomb said:


> as far as my comment on an ultimatum....what I was trying to say was that to HER it would sound like that, because she deems everything as an attack on her...as critical. you are right in that, in thee past, I have not stated things properly....I HAVE been whiney and complaining, and not been strong in my resolution of what I need. I know now the difference.


When you get to the point where you are ready to decide, you simply tell her what is going on. You tell her that your needs are not being met and you are considering divorce. You ask her how she feels about that and that you would like to discuss your needs in counseling and begin to work on them, if she wants to continue in the marriage, otherwise it would be good to work together and plan for how the marriage will end as amicably as possible and what is best for baby under the circumstances. No pressure. Just this is where I am and what I need. Are you on board or not?


cinnabomb said:


> There is something else I havent said because I thought it was too personal. Something that has brought to light some of these things, but also made this process 100x more difficult. I lost my only sibling a few months back, tragically. It has been everything I can muster to keep it together, move on, stay busy, etc. But I break down sometimes. This week was especially hard. Last night I sat, looking at pics of my younger sib on my laptop and began crying, deep heartache and pain. wife sat 10 feet away watching tv and didnt get up to console me for almost 30 minutes, just letting me cry. This is who she is now....just cold and emotionless. Its not what I need.


This does seem heartless, but you two are so disconnected that she may have no idea what an appropriate response might be, especially since you have been doing the 180. Don’t assume that her response means she doesn’t care. It might, but you don’t know.


Chaparral said:


> In your first post you mentioned how her partner had replaced you in several ways if I remember correctly. What have you done to verify they do not also have a sexual relationship. This thread has many redflags for that.
> 
> Other than that she has lost respect for you one way or another. Her pre success behavior shows that. It may simply be because she has out performed you financially. Is she just keeping you because you have become the maid, cook and butler? Why have t you hired domestic help?


Agreed. If she is as rich as you say, it makes sense to get more help.

Also I think she very well may be having an affair with her business partner. I thought that from the beginning of this thread.


cinnabomb said:


> So to answer you Chap, yes her relationship with her partner is inappropriately over the line. they talk about everything personal. he knows every aspect of her life, our babys life, etc. I have told MC about it, but MC has not yet brought it up in session because we are still dealing with so many other issues. As far as it being an affair I highly doubt it....hes much older and fugly, married with kids. But I dont know....


If she is having an affair, nothing you do in marriage counseling will help, because her attention and affection is with another man. You cannot work on a relationship that isn’t important to her or when she has already given herself to another man.

You keep saying that you have cried and cried over the loss of your wife, but you have to let her go. That woman is gone. You now have a new version of her. What are you going to do about that? I think your whole question and this point of this thread is how to get your wife back. She is not coming back. She has changed and there is no going back to how she was. Can she be a better version of herself? You started with 1.0. Now you have 2.0. You aren’t going back to 1.0, that operating system is no longer supported. She would have to become 3.0 with a new framework to support it.


cinnabomb said:


> i do not think she is cheating, despite that one strange thing about the waxing.


Waxing? I totally missed this. What happened?



cinnabomb said:


> im also super confused about how to be in session. some of you are telling me to pour my heart out and grieve, but some of you are saying stick with the 180 ive been doing. pouring my heart out will come accross as complaining or needy or weak. but then again I have so much to say that hasnt been said. im confused.


Don’t pour your heart out to her. It would only make matters worse. You are pouring your heart out here and in IC. Keep that up. Do you journal? Journaling can be extremely helpful. You can put everything down. I keep a journal on my password protected computer. I make a new file every three months, because I write so much.

At this point, sharing your emotions with her is unhealthy for you unless it is saying that you are happy about something. Keep it light. Your relationship is not deep right now, so she cannot handle anything deep. If she is not having an affair, I would suspect this has something to do with the changes she has made in her personality in order to cope with her job.



cinnabomb said:


> Wife wants me to be in a more open and happy mood when she gets home, ask her about her day, etc. But many of the forum people are telling me to 180 her and not give much or initiate much at all. This is my dilemma.


This is great as long as it is mutual. You should each be sharing. Perhaps pick a time when you can both talk about your day together. Say she tends to the baby in the room off the kitchen while you are cooking and you talk about your days. But keep your comments to events and thoughts, not feelings. She can talk about her feelings, that’s fine, but not you. If things improve and she is safe person in the future, great, but not now. She is not a safe person to share feelings with, but if she is sharing her feelings with you, it can get her to connect with you and let down her walls.


----------



## cinnabomb

CynthiaDe said:


> When your wife and your marriage is not taking up the main space in your thinking. Right now, it is always in the forefront of your mind. Get to a place where you are stabilized in yourself. Learn to set healthy boundaries and know what is and is not acceptable. At this point, you are very new to the process of learning healthy boundaries. It has to be about you learning and growing as a person, not about your marriage. Once you are in a better place and you aren't adding to the problems, you can take the next step in seeing how your wife fits into you being healthy - or not.
> 
> Part of this is doing things within your own realm of responsibility. For example, she leaves a mess. Don't touch it. Let her deal with her mess. Yes, there comes a point where it infringes on you, so maybe it would be wise to hire a housekeeping to come in once or twice a week to do laundry, do the floors, clean up tissues, clean the bathrooms, take out the garbage, etc. Don't take on her responsibilities until it impacts you. This may mean learning to live in a less than pristine environment. That takes getting used to.
> 
> 
> You already know you cannot control her. If she wants to be fat, that is up to her. You decide whether you are willing to accept that or not. Maybe you are. Maybe you aren't. But don't think you can make her into what you want her to be or make her go back to how she was when you fell in love with her. She isn't that person anymore. You decide if you want her or not.
> 
> You also asked a questions somewhere about hugs. Should you initiate hugs? I would say that since her response has been positive and if you want a hug, then yes, hug her. Pleasant interaction is not against the 180 as long as it is mutual. Part of the idea is that the relationship is mutual, rather than you giving and asking and constantly pursuing without connecting. If you are not connecting, then don’t continue with a behavior that isn’t bringing about connection. Only do those things which you can see are building and bring connection.
> 
> 
> When you get to the point where you are ready to decide, you simply tell her what is going on. You tell her that your needs are not being met and you are considering divorce. You ask her how she feels about that and that you would like to discuss your needs in counseling and begin to work on them, if she wants to continue in the marriage, otherwise it would be good to work together and plan for how the marriage will end as amicably as possible and what is best for baby under the circumstances. No pressure. Just this is where I am and what I need. Are you on board or not?
> 
> This does seem heartless, but you two are so disconnected that she may have no idea what an appropriate response might be, especially since you have been doing the 180. Don’t assume that her response means she doesn’t care. It might, but you don’t know.
> 
> Agreed. If she is as rich as you say, it makes sense to get more help.
> 
> Also I think she very well may be having an affair with her business partner. I thought that from the beginning of this thread.
> 
> If she is having an affair, nothing you do in marriage counseling will help, because her attention and affection is with another man. You cannot work on a relationship that isn’t important to her or when she has already given herself to another man.
> 
> You keep saying that you have cried and cried over the loss of your wife, but you have to let her go. That woman is gone. You now have a new version of her. What are you going to do about that? I think your whole question and this point of this thread is how to get your wife back. She is not coming back. She has changed and there is no going back to how she was. Can she be a better version of herself? You started with 1.0. Now you have 2.0. You aren’t going back to 1.0, that operating system is no longer supported. She would have to become 3.0 with a new framework to support it.
> 
> Waxing? I totally missed this. What happened?
> 
> 
> Don’t pour your heart out to her. It would only make matters worse. You are pouring your heart out here and in IC. Keep that up. Do you journal? Journaling can be extremely helpful. You can put everything down. I keep a journal on my password protected computer. I make a new file every three months, because I write so much.
> 
> At this point, sharing your emotions with her is unhealthy for you unless it is saying that you are happy about something. Keep it light. Your relationship is not deep right now, so she cannot handle anything deep. If she is not having an affair, I would suspect this has something to do with the changes she has made in her personality in order to cope with her job.
> 
> 
> This is great as long as it is mutual. You should each be sharing. Perhaps pick a time when you can both talk about your day together. Say she tends to the baby in the room off the kitchen while you are cooking and you talk about your days. But keep your comments to events and thoughts, not feelings. She can talk about her feelings, that’s fine, but not you. If things improve and she is safe person in the future, great, but not now. She is not a safe person to share feelings with, but if she is sharing her feelings with you, it can get her to connect with you and let down her walls.


wow, cynthia, you took the time to respond to a lot. really appreciate that. some people on this forum are such a wonderful resource and we are lucky to get to learn from others experiences. 

this is super helpful actually because i thought the 180 was all about basically just never initiating anything, including conversation, and being abrupt and un-invested in anything, and jsut focusing on my own thing and so on. No I get that its not that. Its more about making sure that the REASON I am doing things is for me, not because I expect something in return. 

If you read the post with the 9 or 10 items I wrote the other day, that will sum up a lot for you about how much we have learned about ourselves. Its remarkable. Wish I knew where we are going from here. Wish I had a Delorean and could go back to 2008 and warn myself so many things to avoid all this pain. But I dont so I cant. :|

As for infidelity, again, I dont know. I dont think so. But I dont know. I will bring it up with MC again at some point because it IS in the back of my mind. I am developing some kind of carpal tunnel from all this writing lately. Need to take a break!


----------



## cinnabomb

EVG39 said:


> CB, I would keep mining Glover including talking to guys on the NMMNG message board but I also can vouch for anchorwatch's recommendation of Deida's _Way ot the Superior Man_
> 
> Deida isn't for everybody by a long shot and I sure didn't take everything he said as gospel but what he gets right he gets really right and especially one thing he gets right is his concept of the masculine/female polarity and that if you wish to draw the feminine from your lover you must do it from your masculine.
> Deida's very much a new ager and not a Christian so its kind of surprising when he starts making this argument but its probably more effective since you know he is not beholden to any tradition. I told you early on that getting more in touch with your masculinity was critical fro you as I really believe your wife has usurped the masculine role in your marriage and it is making both of your very unhappy.
> And while know Glover is big on getting back in touch with your masculinity as well I bet if you hear it again from Deida even more explicitly it would clarify the message a bit more. I need that kind of thing a lot myself. Read Deida and see. All you have to lose is some time and a few bucks, but you might gain a lot. I know I did.
> Good Luck


thanks, bought it! Now have to find time to read the 5 or 6 books I have bought!!!


----------



## cinnabomb

Lately I will say there has been improvements on some fronts. I still havent put out the specific things I need from her, but in the last session I made it clear that the neglect and coldness doesnt work for me, and I simply wont live my life like that, so something has to change. I was direct in asking wife if she was going to IC and she said she is actually searching for a new IC to help her. 

This morning she came with baby and gave me a long embrace in bed. We have been talking a bit more the last couple days, about our days, etc. I think she enjoys that and it seems to stimulate some kind of positive release of chemicals or something in her brain, so I am trying to make a point each night in bed to ask how her day was. Someone in this forum actually said that when women (and men I'm sure) talk about themselves it makes them feel good and then they feel more positive or something like that. I think she had held on to anger towards me because I stopped wanting to talk to her or hear about her day for years, because I associated her work with my pain (in large parts, rightfully so). 

I feel bad that a F-ed up mother and F-ed up business partner and work environment really screwed her up. I think she is struggling to find her way and she too is lost in many ways. Perhaps she thinks she has happiness or fulfillment with the material things and bull**** hollywood stuff, but I think deep down, she is confused and lost also. For a long time I pointed the finger directly at her. "Its all her fault." But the truth is, it's not all on her. She had a rough childhood, with a fat lazy, emotional barren and apathetic mother. And now an abusive manipulative psychotic business partner. Trust me I still hold her accountable for her actions, but I am just saying I know have a deeper understanding of how this all happened and that understanding makes it easier for me to separate my emotions from all of this. I try not to sit and say "why did this happen, god, what did I do to deserve this?" any longer, and deal with it the best I can. 

Hope that all makes sense.


----------



## Cynthia

This is really sweet. I hope that you asking her about her day and her feeling heard will make all the difference for you both. It seems that some things are so complicated when they really aren't. Of course this isn't always true, but sometimes it is. Please keep us updated on how things are going.


----------



## cinnabomb

thanks to those of you providing knowledge and input. Something happened yesterday that was a little upsetting. Ever since my wife started making more money than me, she started spending more and more on material crap (chick stuff, purses, clothes, etc). Her mother is a shopaholic and I think she has similar tendencies, because when she isnt working, she is online shopping for clothes 100% of the time. Keep in mind that I made the majority of the money for 8 years, saved it tirelessly, which allowed her to take off 2 years and go to an expensive grad school and even start her own business (knowing it could fail and we would lose money). I supported all of that and we were always in things together, financially, meaning we would discuss anything that was above the standard amount (lets say $100+). Somewhere along the lines this stopped. 

I didn't know how much was being spent because I don't have her credit cards and dont have a clue what is business related or personal, but I noticed more and more clothes coming in and nice clothes being tossed out/given away etc. Yesterday she has a brand purse that looked very expensive. Super upsetting that she didnt discuss this with me. So in the past I probably wouldnt have even said anything at all because she would have blown up and yelled "I dont have to ask permission" if I did. It's happened many times. But this time I nicely said "is that a new purse?" She got immediately awkward and said "Yea I traded my old one for it." First off that doesnt even make sense. I think she thinks I'm stupid, or that I believe her BS lies. 

I'm like "I dont understand. How much was it?" She got even more awkward and said "not much i traded my old one." She just refused to answer and it made me really upset. She has adopted a really shady behavior since being with this partner and when she acts like that, it distances us further and further and pushes me away. I didn't press because there was someone in the elevator with us at the time and then when we got home, she was noticeably distant and awkward the rest of the evening and morning. 

I wanted to bring it up again and try to let her understand that this isnt about asking permission. It's about being a single unified unit that talks these things out. I ALWAYS get her input when we have an expensive purchase to consider. Isn't that what a marriage is??? I dont think she has the emotional stability to hear anything but criticism though. In her mind she is single tracked, like "I make the money, I can spend what I want." But if that's the relationship she wants, well that's not for me. Thoughts?


----------



## turnera

"Wife, I've noticed that we are no longer working in unison regarding income and expenses. I'd like to get back to us working as a team, since we have a common long-term goal. When's a good time for you to sit down and go over things?"


----------



## nirvana

cinnabomb said:


> thanks to those of you providing knowledge and input. Something happened yesterday that was a little upsetting. Ever since my wife started making more money than me, she started spending more and more on material crap (chick stuff, purses, clothes, etc). Her mother is a shopaholic and I think she has similar tendencies, because when she isnt working, she is online shopping for clothes 100% of the time. Keep in mind that I made the majority of the money for 8 years, saved it tirelessly, which allowed her to take off 2 years and go to an expensive grad school and even start her own business (knowing it could fail and we would lose money). I supported all of that and we were always in things together, financially, meaning we would discuss anything that was above the standard amount (lets say $100+). Somewhere along the lines this stopped.
> 
> I didn't know how much was being spent because I don't have her credit cards and dont have a clue what is business related or personal, but I noticed more and more clothes coming in and nice clothes being tossed out/given away etc. Yesterday she has a brand purse that looked very expensive. Super upsetting that she didnt discuss this with me. So in the past I probably wouldnt have even said anything at all because she would have blown up and yelled "I dont have to ask permission" if I did. It's happened many times. But this time I nicely said "is that a new purse?" She got immediately awkward and said "Yea I traded my old one for it." First off that doesnt even make sense. I think she thinks I'm stupid, or that I believe her BS lies.
> 
> I'm like "I dont understand. How much was it?" She got even more awkward and said "not much i traded my old one." She just refused to answer and it made me really upset. She has adopted a really shady behavior since being with this partner and when she acts like that, it distances us further and further and pushes me away. I didn't press because there was someone in the elevator with us at the time and then when we got home, she was noticeably distant and awkward the rest of the evening and morning.
> 
> I wanted to bring it up again and try to let her understand that this isnt about asking permission. It's about being a single unified unit that talks these things out. I ALWAYS get her input when we have an expensive purchase to consider. Isn't that what a marriage is??? I dont think she has the emotional stability to hear anything but criticism though. In her mind she is single tracked, like "I make the money, I can spend what I want." But if that's the relationship she wants, well that's not for me. Thoughts?


I agree. A lot of SAHMs start working and then get arrogant about their money.


----------



## bandit.45

Yo are so wrapped up in your wife's life... Obsessed actually. Codependent doesn't even begin to describe your behavior. 

You have no identity or life of your own. That is why you are so anguished. Your soul has no anchor. 

My take is that you need to submit to some psychological evaluations. Seriously my friend. There is something going on deeper than just your wife being a self centered autocrat.


----------



## bandit.45

nirvana said:


> I agree. A lot of SAHMs start working and then get arrogant about their money.


This isn't the problem. The problem is he has no life outside his wife and kids.


----------



## LongWalk

CB,

To echo Bandit, I find your measurement of what is going on in terms of your child to be a form of disorientation. Your wife's interaction with your child and your parenting simply don't warrant daily introspection.

1. Be a great father when you are parenting.
2. What you wife does is on her. You can observe. But if she unengaged, that is just sign that she is troubled.

Take up a hobby. Go do martial arts, kick boxing or bowling, anything to get your mind off this unhappy marriage. Make yourself happy without her.

Once you end the codependency, your path will be clear.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

In your shoes I would have been much more direct. "I don't think you and I are on the same page with our spending and saving. That new purse looks very expensive, and since you won't be honest with me about what it costs I'll assume it was several hundred dollars. I don't have a problem buying nice things once in a while, but I do have a problem having secrets from each other and hiding things. Why don't you just tell me what the purse costs?"

I wouldn't care if she didn't like my question - it wouldn't bother me on the least if she yelled and screamed. I would just repeat my questions, and add "I'm not going to let your browbeating and abusive behavior derail my questions."

Money is one area that a married couple HAS to come to terms with. You don't have to agree - but you have to be honest and create a way for both to get what they need. For example - maybe you set aside the same amount as each other - she buys clothes, etc and you save or spend yours on a motorcycle or some big asset every once in a while. If you want to save and she wants to spend - get a separate investment account and I would have an attorney write up an agreement that this is your money regardless of any marital issues that come up later.

I do think the way you asked set you two up for a fight. It sounded indirect and accusatory and wasn't about the purse. It was about the spending. So I think you should rethink your approach and be more direct and less emotional if that makes sense.

Just put all the finances out there - bring it up in MC that you need a common financial plan with fair financial allocations. Maybe even an accountant to do a monthly reallocation after collecting all the receipts and statements.


----------



## alte Dame

Traded a handbag? If this isn't a lie, then it was with a friend or at a consignment store? If it's a lie, designer handbags these days often cost in the thousands, not the hundreds:

Designer Hobo Bags : Leather & Canvas at Neiman Marcus


----------



## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> This isn't the problem. The problem is he has no life outside his wife and kids.


youre so wrong about this. re-read the thread.


----------



## AliceA

Just a reminder to people that this is where he comes to vent about his relationship, so though it may seem like it's all he thinks about or cares about, you're making assumptions based on incomplete data.

It probably is taking up more of his time than it would if he was happy of course, but that doesn't mean it's taking up all of his time.

Understand where you are in this picture.


----------



## cinnabomb

breeze said:


> Just a reminder to people that this is where he comes to vent about his relationship, so though it may seem like it's all he thinks about or cares about, you're making assumptions based on incomplete data.
> 
> It probably is taking up more of his time than it would if he was happy of course, but that doesn't mean it's taking up all of his time.
> 
> Understand where you are in this picture.


thats it right there. im here to get rid of my bad thoughts and learn from you guys. im not here telling you i worked out 3 times this week, played basketball, or went to 3 happy hours with my boys this week. im trying to give you as much info as possible to let you know the truth about the situation. 

anyways, I take it all with a grain of salt. Some of you are awesome, great advice, and some of you sound angry and bitter and I get that, but it doesn't help much. "Tough love" isnt exactly the way to get things to work for me, I prefer logic, reasoning, and intelligent thought, not "be a man you fkin ***** whipped *****!"

Ok so I called my wife in just now and asked her to sit down and talk. She was immedietely awkward, sitting as far from me on the bed as possible. I asked why she was awkward about the purse when I asked her about it and she claimed I ignored her at dinner earlier and that she felt upset about that. I said "ok I honestly didnt know what happened at dinner, I wasnt trying to." But I still wanted to know about the purse so I asked how much was it, she said "like nothing I traded for it." I said "what do you mean, that doesnt make sense." She said "its like when you sell something and buy something same thing." 

Ok so I know she is lying because she has never sold a single thing ever, but thats actually aside the point. When I calmly tried to talk to her about how that secretive behavior distances us and pushes me away, she began getting very hostile and says what she always says which is "I dont want to talk about this controlling stuff. lets just talk to MC." Her default is always talk to MC, she cant bring herself to just talk to me. She got pretty instantly flooded and started to lose her cool. 

I said "how is this controlling? I'm not asking you to come to me for permission. I'm asking you to include me in the same way that I include you in big purchases so that we are connected and can give opinions to each other. If you dont like my opinion, well you can decide for yourself, but we need to stay connected. This secrecy is bad for our relationship."

I thought I did a great job and was very level headed and logical, and I was actually surprised at how completely distraught and upset she was. She couldn't even control her anger to see that what I was talking about was a way to connect us more, rather than add to the distrust and distance in our relationship. She doesnt get it. 

So it ended with "I dont want to talk anymore without MC." I just said ok and she left. Pretty typical argument, except in the past I would push and push and she'd get more upset and yell. This time I just said fine.


----------



## turnera

You're getting there. That was better than in the past.


----------



## farsidejunky

You did good. You kept your cool, stated your truth, and did not try to control.

You can do everything right and still have a lousy outcome if she chooses not to engage without emotion.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> You did good. You kept your cool, stated your truth, and did not try to control.
> 
> You can do everything right and still have a lousy outcome if she chooses not to engage without emotion.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Agree and keep that calm position, let her find her own emotional release.

When you are standing on truth, no capitulation is required to ease her of her self induced fit. Let her figure out how to be dignified.

You can state how you want to be treated, that's more truth, but then leave her with that truth. She has to find her own center with it.

You are not wrong for asking to be treated with care, respect, reason and connectedness.


----------



## kristin2349

alte Dame said:


> Traded a handbag? If this isn't a lie, then it was with a friend or at a consignment store? If it's a lie, designer handbags these days often cost in the thousands, not the hundreds:
> 
> Designer Hobo Bags : Leather & Canvas at Neiman Marcus



Trading a handbag is really common, there are a number of ways to do it. You can sell them outright (the RealReal, Yogi's Closet) or trade up, there are even private Facebook groups for this not to mention a ton of websites. 

I buy and sell my designer bags and the going rate for an "average" bag is about 3K and goes up from there. Most women in the position he is describing would carry Celine, Botega Venetta or Chanel (3-6K) The "holy grail" of designer bags is the Hermes Birkin Bag it has a waiting list of 2 years and starts at 9K and goes up to 250K. This bag is part of the LA/Hollywood uniform. It seems way out of whack to someone not working and living in such an image conscious environment. I'm not saying it is right, I'm just saying that if you aren't in it you can't wrap your head around what becomes a necessity.


----------



## bfree

kristin2349 said:


> Trading a handbag is really common, there are a number of ways to do it. You can sell them outright (the RealReal, Yogi's Closet) or trade up, there are even private Facebook groups for this not to mention a ton of websites.
> 
> I buy and sell my designer bags and the going rate for an "average" bag is about 3K and goes up from there. Most women in the position he is describing would carry Celine, Botega Venetta or Chanel (3-6K) The "holy grail" of designer bags is the Hermes Birkin Bag it has a waiting list of 2 years and starts at 9K and goes up to 250K. This bag is part of the LA/Hollywood uniform. It seems way out of whack to someone not working and living in such an image conscious environment. I'm not saying it is right, I'm just saying that if you aren't in it you can't wrap your head around what becomes a necessity.


From what I understand everything you say here is correct. I find it sad that cb and his wife cannot discuss this issue as simply and as succinctly as you just did here. I'm finding that much of their issues are communication based but those won't be corrected until they both learn to listen openly when the other speaks.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> From what I understand everything you say here is correct. I find it sad that cb and his wife cannot discuss this issue as simply and as succinctly as you just did here. I'm finding that much of their issues are communication based but those won't be corrected until they both learn to listen openly when the other speaks.


He could start.


----------



## jld

kristin2349 said:


> Trading a handbag is really common, there are a number of ways to do it. You can sell them outright (the RealReal, Yogi's Closet) or trade up, there are even private Facebook groups for this not to mention a ton of websites.
> 
> I buy and sell my designer bags and the going rate for an "average" bag is about 3K and goes up from there. Most women in the position he is describing would carry Celine, Botega Venetta or Chanel (3-6K) The "holy grail" of designer bags is the Hermes Birkin Bag it has a waiting list of 2 years and starts at 9K and goes up to 250K. This bag is part of the LA/Hollywood uniform. It seems way out of whack to someone not working and living in such an image conscious environment. I'm not saying it is right, I'm just saying that if you aren't in it you can't wrap your head around what becomes a necessity.


I can't wrap my head around any of this. And it sounds like OP cannot, either.

But maybe with some more education from people like you, Kristin, he will be able to start. Otherwise they will likely continue to outgrow each other.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> He could start.


He's already started.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> He's already started.


It may not feel like that to her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> It may not feel like that to her.


Thats not his problem. His own progress is independent of her unhealthy reactions.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Thats not his problem. His own progress is independent of her unhealthy reactions.


Well, considering he is trying to preserve this marriage, I think her feelings about all of this matter, too.

OP, your counselor is there in Hollywood, right? He/she surely understands the class/cultural dynamics there affecting your relationship. 

You have said that you are encouraged to share your feelings honestly and openly. It is probably seen as the only hope for the relationship.

Idk. I think you two are just outgrowing each other. She feels judged. You feel left behind. 

I think the only way forward is for you to adapt to her. Be humble and let her teach you. 

I think she has been pretty patient with you, actually. Must be because of the history, and the baby.

She has got to feel conflicted, though. Hard place to be.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Well, considering he is trying to preserve this marriage, I think her feelings about all of this matter, too.
> 
> OP, your counselor is there in Hollywood, right? He/she surely understands the class/cultural dynamics there affecting your relationship.
> 
> You have said that you are encouraged to share your feelings honestly and openly. It is probably seen as the only hope for the relationship.
> 
> Idk. I think you two are just outgrowing each other. She feels judged. You feel left behind.
> 
> I think the only way forward is for you to adapt to her. Be humble and let her teach you.
> 
> I think she has been pretty patient with you, actually. Must be because of the history, and the baby.
> 
> She has got to feel conflicted, though. Hard place to be.


He cannot facilitate all of her growth for her. He has to focus on his own first and his own first includes treating her with dignity, but does not require him to own her entire reaction. All of her reaction is not based solely on his behavior alone. Therefore he is wise to choose not to carry all of it especially when he' learning to carry himself fully.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> He cannot facilitate all of her growth for her. He has to focus on his own first and his own first includes treating her with dignity, but does not require him to own her entire reaction. All of her reaction is not based solely on his behavior alone. Therefore he is wise to choose not to carry all of it especially when he' learning to carry himself fully.


I don't think he is facilitating any growth in her. I think he has his hands full just trying to hang on to her.

It seems like the marriage is slipping away. OP knows it, grieves it, but cannot either accept it or adapt to stay in it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I don't think he is facilitating any growth in her. I think he has his hands full just trying to hang on to her.
> 
> It seems like the marriage is slipping away. OP knows it, grieves it, but cannot either accept it or adapt to stay in it.


Last time I checked, she is of age to own big girl panties. She needs to pull them out and put them on.


----------



## cinnabomb

I woke up this morning feeling F-ed up in the head. See the thing is, when we arent having any serious conversations and things are ok, then at times they are really nice. Like a normal family. But when stuff like this happens, and I need to have a serious talk with her, to tell her about something that she did that was hurtful, or anything that isnt working, or even something that my opinion with baby is different on, things go absolutely haywire and it makes me lose hope for the future. I just cant imagine that a person can become so egocentric and narcissistic that they cannot see past themselves to be able to understand a different perspective. I have always been really good at putting myself in other peoples shoes, so maybe Im on the far end of the spectrum, but still, that's messed up isnt it?

I mean it's like she thinks that she doesn't make mistakes. And that arrogance/narcissism has really developed the last 5 years from this job. It's really difficult to get along with. The other thing that is really bothering me lately (aside from the usual neglect), is that she seems two-faced a lot of the times. Like she goes OUT of her way to be overly nice to our friends wives, buying them flowers and sweets for literally every occasion possible, to the point that it's over the top. I'm like WTF she is buying flowers like 2x a week for no reasons. And these other women are like "oh youre soooo sweet" and it upsets me because im like, here I am, your husband, who has protected and taken care of you for 15 years, and I am completely unfulfilled and you dont do a single thing for me. I havent said that to her like that I am just talking out loud here. 

Someone asked if I met her today what would I think of her. Well, thats a great question. Truth is, I would still think she is beautiful, has some amazing qualities like a great smile and is funny at times, etc, but I would be severely turned off by the way she is now very "hollywood". She talks with an air of self importance (its subtle, but there, and never was before), and also talks like a man now. When I say that I mean she has lost her "softness", like even her tone is very monotone and even abrasive at times now. I dont know how else to describe it, but if you have ever been around hollywood agent who are always "on" (like they sound like they are always performing and trying so hard to be charming), its like that. Huge turnoff for me. Im attracted to kind and humble people, salt of the earth types, who are firmly grounded and unjaded by the materialism and BS, and can enjoy the simple things in life like a sunny day or great song. She used to be all of that 100% and just isnt anymore. 

But this also brings up a huge question of "what would she be today if I wasnt in the picture?" She wouldnt be this, at all, for so many reasons. I actually helped in so many ways get to where she is today. The job and success I mean. As for her personality changes, well I am sure that my weakness also allowed her to go overboard. Not blaming myself, just giving facts, but I do take SOME responsibility. But then I ask myself, well, if I had the power to cause some of this behavior to continue, then perhaps I have the power to undo it as well. So thats where I am today. I will be honest, I am tormented by the lingering thought that she is too far gone. It breaks my heart.


----------



## cinnabomb

I was thinking about this. It's funny how big of a role sex plays in a relationship, especially with men. Truth is, if I was having sex regularly, I would probably be totally fine with most of this other crap. But not having sex (maybe 1x per 3 months), is making me ****ing insane. Perhaps it's making me over analyze everything to death. What's your thoughts on this? Should I figure out a way to start having more sex and see if that helps us out? 

And the truth is, I COULD get more sex if I tried. I just dont try anymore because I am so used to rejection from her and also, I honestly am not attracted to her right now because of my pain. But sometimes....like a lot of times....Im so so freaking >


----------



## Celes

jld said:


> Well, considering he is trying to preserve this marriage, I think her feelings about all of this matter, too.
> 
> OP, your counselor is there in Hollywood, right? He/she surely understands the class/cultural dynamics there affecting your relationship.
> 
> You have said that you are encouraged to share your feelings honestly and openly. It is probably seen as the only hope for the relationship.
> 
> Idk. I think you two are just outgrowing each other. She feels judged. You feel left behind.
> 
> I think the only way forward is for you to adapt to her. Be humble and let her teach you.
> 
> I think she has been pretty patient with you, actually. Must be because of the history, and the baby.
> 
> She has got to feel conflicted, though. Hard place to be.


I agree that they've out grown each other. It sounds like they met at a young age. Truth is, we grow exponentially between the ages of 20-30. It is a crucial time. Who we are at 30 is rarely even close to who we were at 20. OP is desperately trying to to hold on to the 20 year old version of his wife, weight and all. It's not a realistic expectation, and he will continue to be frustrated and depressed until he understands that.


----------



## bandit.45

Cinnabomb do you live in Hollywood?


----------



## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> Cinnabomb do you live in Hollywood?


no


----------



## bandit.45

I didn't think so.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> I woke up this morning feeling F-ed up in the head. See the thing is, when we arent having any serious conversations and things are ok, then at times they are really nice. Like a normal family. But when stuff like this happens, and I need to have a serious talk with her, to tell her about something that she did that was hurtful, or anything that isnt working, or even something that my opinion with baby is different on, things go absolutely haywire and it makes me lose hope for the future. I just cant imagine that a person can become so egocentric and narcissistic that they cannot see past themselves to be able to understand a different perspective. I have always been really good at putting myself in other peoples shoes, so maybe Im on the far end of the spectrum, but still, that's messed up isnt it?
> 
> I mean it's like she thinks that she doesn't make mistakes. And that arrogance/narcissism has really developed the last 5 years from this job. It's really difficult to get along with. The other thing that is really bothering me lately (aside from the usual neglect), is that she seems two-faced a lot of the times. Like she goes OUT of her way to be overly nice to our friends wives, buying them flowers and sweets for literally every occasion possible, to the point that it's over the top. I'm like WTF she is buying flowers like 2x a week for no reasons. And these other women are like "oh youre soooo sweet" and it upsets me because im like, here I am, your husband, who has protected and taken care of you for 15 years, and I am completely unfulfilled and you dont do a single thing for me. I havent said that to her like that I am just talking out loud here.
> 
> Someone asked if I met her today what would I think of her. Well, thats a great question. Truth is, I would still think she is beautiful, has some amazing qualities like a great smile and is funny at times, etc, but I would be severely turned off by the way she is now very "hollywood". She talks with an air of self importance (its subtle, but there, and never was before), and also talks like a man now. When I say that I mean she has lost her "softness", like even her tone is very monotone and even abrasive at times now. I dont know how else to describe it, but if you have ever been around hollywood agent who are always "on" (like they sound like they are always performing and trying so hard to be charming), its like that. Huge turnoff for me. Im attracted to kind and humble people, salt of the earth types, who are firmly grounded and unjaded by the materialism and BS, and can enjoy the simple things in life like a sunny day or great song. She used to be all of that 100% and just isnt anymore.
> 
> But this also brings up a huge question of "what would she be today if I wasnt in the picture?" She wouldnt be this, at all, for so many reasons. I actually helped in so many ways get to where she is today. The job and success I mean. As for her personality changes, well I am sure that my weakness also allowed her to go overboard. Not blaming myself, just giving facts, but I do take SOME responsibility. But then I ask myself, well, if I had the power to cause some of this behavior to continue, then perhaps I have the power to undo it as well. So thats where I am today. I will be honest, I am tormented by the lingering thought that she is too far gone. It breaks my heart.


I'm just glad you are starting to see that you arent responsible for all of it.


----------



## nirvana

bandit.45 said:


> This isn't the problem. The problem is he has no life outside his wife and kids.


Yes, I agree. I have not read the subsequent posts, but I think he needs to make friends and show her that she is not all he has.


----------



## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> I woke up this morning feeling F-ed up in the head. See the thing is, when we arent having any serious conversations and things are ok, then at times they are really nice. Like a normal family. But when stuff like this happens, and I need to have a serious talk with her, to tell her about something that she did that was hurtful, or anything that isnt working, or even something that my opinion with baby is different on, things go absolutely haywire and it makes me lose hope for the future. I just cant imagine that a person can become so egocentric and narcissistic that they cannot see past themselves to be able to understand a different perspective. I have always been really good at putting myself in other peoples shoes, so maybe Im on the far end of the spectrum, but still, that's messed up isnt it?
> 
> *She is obviously getting a payoff from it. She is sucessful in an area where it is very hard to succeed. I work in the entertainment industry it is a fickle business.*
> 
> I mean it's like she thinks that she doesn't make mistakes. And that arrogance/narcissism has really developed the last 5 years from this job. It's really difficult to get along with. The other thing that is really bothering me lately (aside from the usual neglect), is that she seems two-faced a lot of the times. Like she goes OUT of her way to be overly nice to our friends wives, buying them flowers and sweets for literally every occasion possible, to the point that it's over the top. I'm like WTF she is buying flowers like 2x a week for no reasons. And these other women are like "oh youre soooo sweet" and it upsets me because im like, here I am, your husband, who has protected and taken care of you for 15 years, and I am completely unfulfilled and you dont do a single thing for me. I havent said that to her like that I am just talking out loud here.
> 
> *Being "nice" to people and schmoozing with them and giving them gifts is part of her job. It is now second nature to her, the entertainment industry is notorious for the amount of swag they give away. I have not paid for concert tickets, movies, music, books magazines, or even nights out a club with bottle service in about 20 years. It is all "gratis" and I reciprocate, it is the cost of doing business. Yes, most days I was "nicer" to associates than I was my now Ex, but he isn't in the entertainment industry and I know he was nicer to coworkers and employees than he was me most days. Notice I said he is now my Ex. This is not a good thing that is happening. *
> 
> Someone asked if I met her today what would I think of her. Well, thats a great question. Truth is, I would still think she is beautiful, has some amazing qualities like a great smile and is funny at times, etc, but I would be severely turned off by the way she is now very "hollywood". She talks with an air of self importance (its subtle, but there, and never was before), and also talks like a man now. When I say that I mean she has lost her "softness", like even her tone is very monotone and even abrasive at times now. I dont know how else to describe it, but if you have ever been around hollywood agent who are always "on" (like they sound like they are always performing and trying so hard to be charming), its like that. Huge turnoff for me. Im attracted to kind and humble people, salt of the earth types, who are firmly grounded and unjaded by the materialism and BS, and can enjoy the simple things in life like a sunny day or great song. She used to be all of that 100% and just isnt anymore.
> 
> *There is no such animal as a kind and humble "Hollywood agent", they don't exist. There are stories of legendary Hollywood agents and the best are always ruthless, that is the nature of the business. From your description she is happy with her career. It doesn't sound like she will give it up.*
> 
> But this also brings up a huge question of "what would she be today if I wasnt in the picture?" She wouldnt be this, at all, for so many reasons. I actually helped in so many ways get to where she is today. The job and success I mean. As for her personality changes, well I am sure that my weakness also allowed her to go overboard. Not blaming myself, just giving facts, but I do take SOME responsibility. But then I ask myself, well, if I had the power to cause some of this behavior to continue, then perhaps I have the power to undo it as well. So thats where I am today. I will be honest, I am tormented by the lingering thought that she is too far gone. It breaks my heart.


*She is where she is, you did contribute to part of it the good and the bad. I think her getting to this point was a whole lot easier than turning it around. 

It sounds like the disconnect may be too much to overcome. The handbag is a symptom of that. In her business this stuff is not "optional" it is part of the image she needs to maintain. I'm surprised this issue hasn't come up sooner. Hollywood is a small town, actors want "the best" agent they can get to represent them. To be perceived as the "best" you have to project an image of success. To do that you have to have several designer bags, plus the designer wardrobe and accessories AND the car and home. The spouse needs to "complete" the image or you are a liability. You need to project success in order to be "of value" to her as a partner. This is the business she is in, she is in an industry that places a high value on people based on image and she collects a commision off of that value.*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Problem is.. if she places career above her marriage, there will be a natural consequence. I believe that is a sad state of affairs to choose bright lights and fame over your husband and father of your child. They had a financial agreement, she broke it. Now they need to broker a new one and he is well within bounds to be upset and express it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> "Wife, I've noticed that we are no longer working in unison regarding income and expenses. I'd like to get back to us working as a team, since we have a common long-term goal. When's a good time for you to sit down and go over things?"


This is my favorite post on this latest issue. It acknowledges the previous agreement and asks her to revisit this topic like a big girl and in a very direct non whiney way from you, cinna.


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Problem is.. if she places career above her marriage, there will be a natural consequence. I believe that is a sad state of affairs to choose bright lights and fame over your husband and father of your child. They had a financial agreement, she broke it. Now they need to broker a new one and he is well within bounds to be upset and express it.


unfortunately, BL, she has ALWAYS placed career over marriage. Its the sad truth and the root of my main issues with her over the last 6 or 7 years or so. I thought about it long and hard and realized that 90% of our fights were caused by this:

1. She would relentlessly neglect me. She is on her laptop or phone 100% of the time she is home. I was sad and lonely. I would plan date nights for us to try and connect. She would be emailing on phone the entire date night and even leave me in the restaurant alone to make and take "urgent" calls. I'd plan vacations....same story. She would come home late, and I would stay up, hoping to bond, watch tv, anything, and she'd go straight to bed. I got very lonely and resentful. 

2. I would then complain. "You keep checking your phone while we are on a date", or "we dont spend any time together anymore", or "dont you know how lonely I am". Instead of undertanding me, all she heard was "you arent good enough" or "I need your time, even though you barely have any to give". All she heard were attacks, not understanding that the very essence of our marriage was falling apart. She couldnt understand because we aren't the same. I place love above anything in the world and she doesn't. She just thought I should support her efforts to the ends of the earth without giving me anything back. 

3. So when I complained, she would go ape$hit and lose her cool, yelling that I am not supportive or whatever. Then she would slam doors, ignore me for days at a time, etc. It got worse and worse. 

4. Eventually, I got so sick of her outbursts that I stopped complaining or even trying. I just swallowed it and it began to eat me alive from the inside. I got to a breaking point and we ended up in MC. That's where we are now. 

The truth is, no matter what I want or say, she will never choose love over her career (and ESPECIALLY not now that she is so successful and rich and respected). She will never leave that cancerous business partner. So I am left with that burden. Thoughts?


----------



## farsidejunky

I am wondering if she has ever really been the version of her former self that you idealize so heavily.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## cinnabomb

Also, I want to clarify something. I'm not stupid and I completely understand the image requirements of her job. I have no issues with that, and the sad truth is that if she talked to me and said "honey I'm thinking about this purse. It's expensive but I work hard and really want it and have thought about it for awhile. what do you think?" I would have 100% said "Get it." because I totally get it. 

It's not about the money, it's about the continual secrecy that I have a big issue with. It breaks trust, and trust is a real sensitive point for me. I despise liars, always have, and I can't be with someone I don't trust, and do be honest, I have lost trust in her years ago. I started to see a lot of shadiness and moral compromise from her and it scared me because I don't compromise my morals for anyone.


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## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> I am wondering if she has ever really been the version of her former self that you idealize so heavily.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


she totally was and I stand by that and trust me, I've looked at it without love goggles on. I'll tell you what made the difference. In life, we require balance. She had that. When she was working a normal job she had a boss, she had interns under her, it was balanced. We did well but we werent "rich" but not poor, but had enough money to take one thrifty vacation every year, or go to a nice restaurant once a month or so. We had balance. 

When she became the boss it was like the equivalent of what happened to Kanye West, with a ton of money and yes-men around him all day long. He lost balance and understanding of the world and became ego-centric. This happened to her. 

But yes, she used to be wonderful. Really and truly wonderful.


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## Nucking Futs

cinnabomb said:


> unfortunately, BL, she has ALWAYS placed career over marriage. Its the sad truth and the root of my main issues with her over the last 6 or 7 years or so. I thought about it long and hard and realized that 90% of our fights were caused by this:
> 
> 1. She would relentlessly neglect me. She is on her laptop or phone 100% of the time she is home. I was sad and lonely. I would plan date nights for us to try and connect. She would be emailing on phone the entire date night and even leave me in the restaurant alone to make and take "urgent" calls. I'd plan vacations....same story. She would come home late, and I would stay up, hoping to bond, watch tv, anything, and she'd go straight to bed. I got very lonely and resentful.
> 
> 2. I would then complain. "You keep checking your phone while we are on a date", or "we dont spend any time together anymore", or "dont you know how lonely I am". Instead of undertanding me, all she heard was "you arent good enough" or "I need your time, even though you barely have any to give". All she heard were attacks, not understanding that the very essence of our marriage was falling apart. She couldnt understand because we aren't the same. I place love above anything in the world and she doesn't. She just thought I should support her efforts to the ends of the earth without giving me anything back.
> 
> 3. So when I complained, she would go ape$hit and lose her cool, yelling that I am not supportive or whatever. Then she would slam doors, ignore me for days at a time, etc. It got worse and worse.
> 
> 4. Eventually, I got so sick of her outbursts that I stopped complaining or even trying. I just swallowed it and it began to eat me alive from the inside. I got to a breaking point and we ended up in MC. That's where we are now.
> 
> The truth is, no matter what I want or say, *she will never choose love over her career* (and ESPECIALLY not now that she is so successful and rich and respected). *She will never leave that cancerous business partner. So I am left with that burden.* Thoughts?





cinnabomb said:


> i have other posts in the "considering seperation" forum, but i noticed I was getting *really biased responses* there, all saying "leave her", "divorce her", etc. so i thought id try here and see what you think.


Those weren't biased responses, they were good advice. This is not the woman you're going to grow old with. It's past time to cut your losses.


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Also, I want to clarify something. I'm not stupid and I completely understand the image requirements of her job. I have no issues with that, and the sad truth is that if she talked to me and said "honey I'm thinking about this purse. It's expensive but I work hard and really want it and have thought about it for awhile. what do you think?" I would have 100% said "Get it." because I totally get it.
> 
> It's not about the money, it's about the continual secrecy that I have a big issue with. It breaks trust, and trust is a real sensitive point for me. I despise liars, always have, and I can't be with someone I don't trust, and do be honest, I have lost trust in her years ago. I started to see a lot of shadiness and moral compromise from her and it scared me because I don't compromise my morals for anyone.


I was logging in to say hey, cinna, I think whats at the core of all this is she has broken trust big time, but you beat me to it.

She needs to fix the damage she caused. Have there been times you've added damage to her damage, yep. But there is no question she has damaged trust and if you did too in trying to navigate this thing , then fix your part, but you can't fix her part. That's for her to remedy.


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## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> Also, I want to clarify something. I'm not stupid and I completely understand the image requirements of her job. I have no issues with that, and the sad truth is that if she talked to me and said "honey I'm thinking about this purse. It's expensive but I work hard and really want it and have thought about it for awhile. what do you think?" I would have 100% said "Get it." because I totally get it.
> 
> It's not about the money, it's about the continual secrecy that I have a big issue with. It breaks trust, and trust is a real sensitive point for me. I despise liars, always have, and I can't be with someone I don't trust, and do be honest, I have lost trust in her years ago. I started to see a lot of shadiness and moral compromise from her and it scared me because I don't compromise my morals for anyone.



This part of your situation doesn't make a ton of sense to me. She has to be spending a lot of money on her wardrobe. The handbag can't be the first thing. You'd probably have sticker shock if you looked at what she spends on clothes and bags and she knows it and avoids the topic.

You said you used to have a "rule" about spending over a certain amount. Perhaps she just assumed that since you are "rich" by your description that rule no longer applies. She probably feels entitled to spend what she wants on whatever she wants at this point. Does she have reason to believe you will be judgmental or angry about it?

When I was married, early in my marriage my Ex and I had the same rule. The line was $250, but after we reached a certain level financially we stopped. We had our home paid off and zero debt we just stopped consulting each other unless it was a "couple purchase". My Ex did trust my judgement and never ever questioned my spending. 

The other thing that doesn't seem to fit about Hollywood and image is her weight issue. The worst thing you can be in Hollywood is overweight. This standard pretty much applies to everyone in LA.


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## cinnabomb

kristin2349 said:


> This part of your situation doesn't make a ton of sense to me. She has to be spending a lot of money on her wardrobe. The handbag can't be the first thing. You'd probably have sticker shock if you looked at what she spends on clothes and bags and she knows it and avoids the topic.
> 
> You said you used to have a "rule" about spending over a certain amount. Perhaps she just assumed that since you are "rich" by your description that rule no longer applies. She probably feels entitled to spend what she wants on whatever she wants at this point. Does she have reason to believe you will be judgmental or angry about it?
> 
> When I was married, early in my marriage my Ex and I had the same rule. The line was $250, but after we reached a certain level financially we stopped. We had our home paid off and zero debt we just stopped consulting each other unless it was a "couple purchase". My Ex did trust my judgement and never ever questioned my spending.
> 
> The other thing that doesn't seem to fit about Hollywood and image is her weight issue. The worst thing you can be in Hollywood is overweight. This standard pretty much applies to everyone in LA.


yes she has a lot of clothes and stuff and usually she does try to find a good deal, but this purse looked very expensive and was brand new. and she just got the exact one in a different color about a year ago so it was a bit of a shock to me. (we also never even talked about that first one because we were in such a bad place around that time). i dont regulate her on clothes and stuff, although i do think she is a little bit overspending, I dont think its horrific. But yea I have issues with her not even wanting to talk to me about any of it. 

As for the weight, she is not fat by any means. shes thin by american standards. but she has put on a significant amount of belly weight since giving birth because of her poor choices and lack of exercise and its getting worse because I dont ever say anything anymore. If I do she completely loses it. Also, she is not an actress, she is a successful business person so the image thing isnt necessarily as harsh, but yes I agree it is still there. But her success says volumes more than her image and I think she knows that. I think its also why she doesnt even seem to care that all of her friends (who are moms) have all shed baby weight and are fit again but she isnt, because she knows she makes more than any of them. Its like a superiority thing. She doesnt even seem to care about it. Seems to go in hand with the narcissism, like total lack of ability to see herself accurately. 

Im just tired of her blowing up to ANYthing she doesnt like or ANY form of advice, request for change, etc. Like here is a simple example. She doesnt ever cook for me, but she does for baby, and she will go to the grocery store and come back with a ton of pricey stuff without checking prices, and half the stuff we usually have. Or she will spend $40 on flowers every week for our friends for random stuff, when #1 you can get flowers for way less and #2 most of the friends are really nice and say thanks but would honestly rather have something like a bottle of wine or something that doesnt die in 2 days. Ive talked to her about it, but again she just loses it. She literally cannot be told what to do or asked to change, or any form of requests without thinking its an opposing force and getting furious and trying to destroy them. Im trying but I'm a bit lost with all off this recent analysis. I am also starting to think that MC isnt really getting to the core of the issues, just prolonging the process. I think MC is very good and fair, but I'm tired of also being told i'm 50% responsible for this when i truly am not.


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## techmom

cinnabomb said:


> she totally was and I stand by that and trust me, I've looked at it without love goggles on. I'll tell you what made the difference. In life, we require balance. She had that. When she was working a normal job she had a boss, she had interns under her, it was balanced. We did well but we werent "rich" but not poor, but had enough money to take one thrifty vacation every year, or go to a nice restaurant once a month or so. We had balance.
> 
> When she became the boss it was like the equivalent of what happened to Kanye West, with a ton of money and yes-men around him all day long. He lost balance and understanding of the world and became ego-centric. This happened to her.
> 
> But yes, she used to be wonderful. Really and truly wonderful.


If she desired to advance in her career from where she was, then she was not truly satisfied with the simpler lifestyle or else she would have stayed in that position. She outgrew that job, she desired more even though all you saw was the humble, down to earth girl. She wanted more.

Questioning her about her spending is not because you are genuinely concerned about her spending, it is because you are witnessing her change into a person you don't relate to. She wants to be rich and experience this Hollywood lifestyle, she wants power and wants to flaunt wealth. If she didn't then she would have never advanced in her career. End result is that you want the girl from the past, not who she is now.

She knows this, but a part of her loves you and another part of her sees you as an albatross around her neck. Constant questioning, wanting her to be thrifty, in shape and humble. When she is at her job, she feels powerful, and that is addicting. I've seen people change who they were for power. 

Regardless of why you want her to change back, all she sees is that you don't love her for who she is, and that tends to make a person withdraw into themselves away from their spouse.


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## cinnabomb

techmom said:


> If she desired to advance in her career from where she was, then she was not truly satisfied with the simpler lifestyle or else she would have stayed in that position. She outgrew that job, she desired more even though all you saw was the humble, down to earth girl. She wanted more.
> 
> Questioning her about her spending is not because you are genuinely concerned about her spending, it is because you are witnessing her change into a person you don't relate to. She wants to be rich and experience this Hollywood lifestyle, she wants power and wants to flaunt wealth. If she didn't then she would have never advanced in her career. End result is that you want the girl from the past, not who she is now.
> 
> She knows this, but a part of her loves you and another part of her sees you as an albatross around her neck. Constant questioning, wanting her to be thrifty, in shape and humble. When she is at her job, she feels powerful, and that is addicting. I've seen people change who they were for power.
> 
> Regardless of why you want her to change back, all she sees is that you don't love her for who she is, and that tends to make a person withdraw into themselves away from their spouse.


Yep. almost all of this is right on. still leaves me with the big question, which is WTf do I do and can it be saved? She is going to have to WANT to save it, but honestly I'm not giving her much reason right now because I'm not being really warm to her or anything. The only reason she has ever brought up for saving the relationship is that I am a good father and she doesnt want a broken home for our baby, but it saddens me that she has never once said that she wants to save it because she wants me. :frown2:


----------



## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> yes she has a lot of clothes and stuff and usually she does try to find a good deal, but this purse looked very expensive and was brand new. and she just got the exact one in a different color about a year ago so it was a bit of a shock to me. (we also never even talked about that first one because we were in such a bad place around that time). i dont regulate her on clothes and stuff, although i do think she is a little bit overspending, I dont think its horrific. But yea I have issues with her not even wanting to talk to me about any of it.
> 
> *I can understand things from her perspective because it would have never occured to me to consult with my Ex when we were married about my spending. We were "rich" and we are both adults. BUT we did have a plan for financial goals and those were always met before anything else, we always paid ourselves first. There has to be open communication about that. This should be worked out in MC between the two of you.*
> 
> 
> As for the weight, she is not fat by any means. shes thin by american standards. but she has put on a significant amount of belly weight since giving birth because of her poor choices and lack of exercise and its getting worse because I dont ever say anything anymore. If I do she completely loses it. Also, she is not an actress, she is a successful business person so the image thing isnt necessarily as harsh, but yes I agree it is still there. But her success says volumes more than her image and I think she knows that. I think its also why she doesnt even seem to care that all of her friends (who are moms) have all shed baby weight and are fit again but she isnt, because she knows she makes more than any of them. Its like a superiority thing. She doesnt even seem to care about it. Seems to go in hand with the narcissism, like total lack of ability to see herself accurately.
> 
> *I understand she is not an actress, I think I relate to where she is career wise. I manage musicians own my own company with a male partner, I've had several well known multi platinum level clients over the years. My Ex is the COO and VP of a Fortune 100. For me appearance is very important and being 5 lbs overweight is not OK. She must not have a hang up about it and that is OK for her, you seem to have an issue with it. She can't and shouldn't lose weight solely for you, it has to be for her or she'll resent you.*
> 
> Im just tired of her blowing up to ANYthing she doesnt like or ANY form of advice, request for change, etc. Like here is a simple example. She doesnt ever cook for me, but she does for baby, and she will go to the grocery store and come back with a ton of pricey stuff without checking prices, and half the stuff we usually have. Or she will spend $40 on flowers every week for our friends for random stuff, when #1 you can get flowers for way less and #2 most of the friends are really nice and say thanks but would honestly rather have something like a bottle of wine or something that doesnt die in 2 days. Ive talked to her about it, but again she just loses it. She literally cannot be told what to do or asked to change, or any form of requests without thinking its an opposing force and getting furious and trying to destroy them. Im trying but I'm a bit lost with all off this recent analysis. I am also starting to think that MC isnt really getting to the core of the issues, just prolonging the process. I think MC is very good and fair, but I'm tired of also being told i'm 50% responsible for this when i truly am not.
> 
> *It sounds like many of your issues go back to money, yet you say she/you are rich. If you are rich why on earth would you expect her to check prices at the grocery store? Is $40 a week that big a deal? It is a kind and generous thing to give gifts to your friends. Why do you know better than she what her friends would like? This one seems like you are projecting, because anyone who gets a "gift" of flowers and says to the giver or their spouse "I'd have rather had wine" is f'ing rude. I'd blow up at someone telling me how to give a gift too.
> 
> I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm just sensing that things perhaps things really are too far gone with your wife. It sounds like she can't do anything right in your eyes. It sounds like micro managing and nit picky. You also seem to be in a much different place with totally different priorities and expectations. You seem to be living like you are middle class when you've repeatedly said you are rich. Your wife is successful rich and living her life accordingly. *


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## TheTruthHurts

Kristen you bring up good points. "Rich" isn't really a dollar amount - it's an attitude and lifestyle.

I've known many people who clearly live beyond their means and drive cars and have houses that make me wonder what their future holds. Others I've know who are millionaires many many times over (doesn't really matter the amount) but live modest lifestyles. Look at warren buffet.

Perhaps OP is more comfortable living a more modest lifestyle whereas his W wants to display trappings of wealth to try to fit in with a group or an internal model of wealth.

In any event - if this is the underlying issue, then I don't think there is a viable long term solution.


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## turnera

The only way this can be 'saved' is for her to see you walking out the door and her POSSIBLY to decide she doesn't want to lose you. And as a result, the big talk and CHANGES. 

But that will NEVER happen as long as you stay there and are unwilling to walk out the door.

Basic psychology. Why should she? She has EVERYTHING now.


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## Cynthia

It is probable that you are legally responsible for your wife’s credit card debt. If you are supposed to be handling the finances, but your wife has credit card debt on the side, you really do not know what your financial situation is. Since you are also responsible for it, you should know what is going on.

That being said, it would be better if the two of you had a budget and an agreement regarding credit card debt. It is important to be in unity over finances.

I agree with kristin2349. Your wife is in an industry where appearances are important. They may not seem important to you, but they are to her and her career. The fact that you would bristle at the purchase of a purse that is “several hundred dollars” seems unrealistic. To maintain an image in the environment she is in, she is going to be spending a lot of money on outward appearances and that should be okay. She needs a budget, so she can do this without feeling under a microscope. It will be necessary for you to learn and understand how much it truly costs to maintain her “look.” Most likely she wants to be on level with these people, rather than looking like a Walmart shopper.


cinnabomb said:


> Also, I want to clarify something. I'm not stupid and I completely understand the image requirements of her job. I have no issues with that, and the sad truth is that if she talked to me and said "honey I'm thinking about this purse. It's expensive but I work hard and really want it and have thought about it for awhile. what do you think?" I would have 100% said "Get it." because I totally get it.
> 
> It's not about the money, it's about the continual secrecy that I have a big issue with. It breaks trust, and trust is a real sensitive point for me. I despise liars, always have, and I can't be with someone I don't trust, and do be honest, I have lost trust in her years ago. I started to see a lot of shadiness and moral compromise from her and it scared me because I don't compromise my morals for anyone.


Based on your description of how you handle her purchases, she would have no way to know this. If you have no agreement and no budget there is a complete disconnect. If you want this to change you are going to have to step up and talk to her about it, not in a controlling or irritated manner, but truly wanting to come together on this issue and make it work for the family.

Your attitude towards her seems to be getting worse and it could be due to have what is considered a sexless marriage. It sounds like marriage counseling is not really addressing the marriage issues or bringing you closer together.

I think one of the reasons she may have gotten to the point of blowing up at you has nothing to do with her job. I understand that you are frustrated, but at this point, the only nice things you have to say about your wife are about her in the past and her with the baby. Other than that, it is clear that you don’t like her anymore. You don’t want her to be like she is. You want the old wife back. While that is understandable in many areas, it is not realistic in others.

Who has her back? Who can she really trust? Anyone? You should have each other’s back and somehow that got lost along the way. If this is to change, you are the only one you can control to make a change. My suggestion is that you go to a place in your mind where you are totally committed to having her back, but you are also not reliant upon her for your happiness. Continue to disengage where it is hurtful and to engage where engagement is mutual.


----------



## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> Kristen you bring up good points. "Rich" isn't really a dollar amount - it's an attitude and lifestyle.
> 
> I've known many people who clearly live beyond their means and drive cars and have houses that make me wonder what their future holds. Others I've know who are millionaires many many times over (doesn't really matter the amount) but live modest lifestyles. Look at warren buffet.
> 
> Perhaps OP is more comfortable living a more modest lifestyle whereas his W wants to display trappings of wealth to try to fit in with a group or an internal model of wealth.
> 
> In any event - if this is the underlying issue, then I don't think there is a viable long term solution.


BINGO. A little background about me. I worked in financial services for over a decade and I was appalled at how overleveraged about 90% of the people in LA were (yes, all of my clients are high net worth people). The "keeping up with the Joneses" attitude in LA is out of control and people have NO understanding of how much savings you need if the $hit hits the fan (as we saw in 2008 with the mortgage meltdown). So , I dont know what everyones tolerance is, but I can tell you that mine is for a moderate, safe, and protected lifestyle. Warren Buffet is my hero, no doubt. I came from fairly humble roots (in terms of family values), and its very important for me to pass those on to my baby one day and have it a part of my family. 

I dont know where wife stands anymore on this stuff. She has become more jaded. Yes, you are right, I AM nitpicking a bit, because when you add ALL of the stuff up that is going on, its messed up. And I dont really care and can certainly compromise if she said "buying flowers 2x a week for friends is really important to me", but the issue is that she is completely incapable of ANY kind of constructive conversation about ANYTHING that she does, and this makes me totally fear for our future. 

Like one thing she would do a lot is pee on the floor. And every single morning I would get up, go in there, and step on pee (sometimes wet, sometimes sticky, etc). It was F-in gross and was a horrible way to start my day every morning. And so I would politely tell her it happened again, and again, and again, and again, and she would just get anoyed and angry and even snap at me. I asked her how she would feel if she stepped in my pee every morning and she just said "I dont know." She cant even understand how that is inconsiderate to me. And I bring this up as a point because its something so inconsiderate in my eyes, and not really a "matter of perspective" like the flowers or whatever, but even still she wouldnt listen to me or stop doing it. 

Do you know how I dealt with it? I took the bulb out above the toilet so I didnt have to see it anymore. Does that sound fair or right to you?


----------



## cinnabomb

CynthiaDe said:


> It is probable that you are legally responsible for your wife’s credit card debt. If you are supposed to be handling the finances, but your wife has credit card debt on the side, you really do not know what your financial situation is. Since you are also responsible for it, you should know what is going on.
> 
> That being said, it would be better if the two of you had a budget and an agreement regarding credit card debt. It is important to be in unity over finances.
> 
> I agree with kristin2349. Your wife is in an industry where appearances are important. They may not seem important to you, but they are to her and her career. The fact that you would bristle at the purchase of a purse that is “several hundred dollars” seems unrealistic. To maintain an image in the environment she is in, she is going to be spending a lot of money on outward appearances and that should be okay. She needs a budget, so she can do this without feeling under a microscope. It will be necessary for you to learn and understand how much it truly costs to maintain her “look.” Most likely she wants to be on level with these people, rather than looking like a Walmart shopper.
> 
> Based on your description of how you handle her purchases, she would have no way to know this. If you have no agreement and no budget there is a complete disconnect. If you want this to change you are going to have to step up and talk to her about it, not in a controlling or irritated manner, but truly wanting to come together on this issue and make it work for the family.
> 
> Your attitude towards her seems to be getting worse and it could be due to have what is considered a sexless marriage. It sounds like marriage counseling is not really addressing the marriage issues or bringing you closer together.
> 
> I think one of the reasons she may have gotten to the point of blowing up at you has nothing to do with her job. I understand that you are frustrated, but at this point, the only nice things you have to say about your wife are about her in the past and her with the baby. Other than that, it is clear that you don’t like her anymore. You don’t want her to be like she is. You want the old wife back. While that is understandable in many areas, it is not realistic in others.
> 
> Who has her back? Who can she really trust? Anyone? You should have each other’s back and somehow that got lost along the way. If this is to change, you are the only one you can control to make a change. My suggestion is that you go to a place in your mind where you are totally committed to having her back, but you are also not reliant upon her for your happiness. Continue to disengage where it is hurtful and to engage where engagement is mutual.


Dont forget that I am a "nice guy", and part of that was being unbelievably nice to her even throughout the very painful last 5 years. I can't even describe the level of egregious behavior from her, usually completely unprovoked. If you had seen it, you would have thought she was 100% certifiable. Im talking waiting up for her, cooked dinner for her, clap when she comes in the door and yell "yay" because I wanted her to feel loved when she walked in, and 5 minutes later she was completely losing her shyit over nothing, berating me, etc. You dont know but try and take my word. 

Yes you here a lot of negative here because that's what I'm doing...im complaining about the bad and hoping to gain insight. There is still good. She is a WONDERFUL mother and Ive said that many times. She is beautiful and has a wonderful smile and sometimes when she tries and is silly, she makes me laugh. She has a wonderful singing voice and is a great dancer. The list goes on and on. But I am totally neglected, ignored, and yes, SEXLESS, and I have to say that last one is really affecting me deeply. 

Would having more sex fix some of these issues??? thoughts?


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## TheTruthHurts

Pee on the floor???? How does that even happen? I'm sooooo confused!


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## TheTruthHurts

BTW CB my W and I are very fiscally conservative. I too work in financial services - and years ago was a CPA - so I get the idea of building net worth vs "showing" your money. To me, a rich person is someone who is fiscally sound and has a "rich" family.

I was very lucky. I walked away from money 15 years ago, taking a serious cut in pay to be around my growing family every day. I say lucky, because I was diagnosed with cancer, and didn't have to look back at years away from my family working. My cancer is very slow - with medical advances I could possibly live a normal lifespan - but I definitely know the value if a dollar versus a minute with my kids! And I still have a nice fat retirement for my W to enjoy - I'd love it to be with me 

But I don't see this working out for you - I think this divide in values is too great. Sorry.


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## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> Dont forget that I am a "nice guy", and part of that was being unbelievably nice to her even throughout the very painful last 5 years. I can't even describe the level of egregious behavior from her, usually completely unprovoked. If you had seen it, you would have thought she was 100% certifiable. Im talking waiting up for her, cooked dinner for her, clap when she comes in the door and yell "yay" because I wanted her to feel loved when she walked in, and 5 minutes later she was completely losing her shyit over nothing, berating me, etc. You dont know but try and take my word.


Yes, you have a frustrating situation here. But either you want to stay with the woman that you and work through things or you don't. 
Clapping for her and things like that are just weird and seem super needy. She was probably annoyed as hell to come home to a man acting like that. I cannot even imagine how I would feel if my man did that. That is trying way too hard. Just be your own man and work together with her. Right now you come across as thinking that you know best and she needs to tow your line.


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## bandit.45

This is a vinyl record that keeps skipping and repeating....


----------



## Chaparral

cinnabomb said:


> I was thinking about this. It's funny how big of a role sex plays in a relationship, especially with men. Truth is, if I was having sex regularly, I would probably be totally fine with most of this other crap. But not having sex (maybe 1x per 3 months), is making me ****ing insane. Perhaps it's making me over analyze everything to death. What's your thoughts on this? Should I figure out a way to start having more sex and see if that helps us out?
> 
> And the truth is, I COULD get more sex if I tried. I just dont try anymore because I am so used to rejection from her and also, I honestly am not attracted to her right now because of my pain. But sometimes....like a lot of times....Im so so freaking >


Cutting back on sex is another huge redflag for cheating. Is this only AFTER the baby was born?

How long has this been giung on? Less than three times per month is a sexless marriage. Ask your MC that.

However, DO NOT BRING UP YOU HAVE WONDERED IF SHE IS CHEATING. Do nothing that makes her doubt her faithfulness. That is a separate investigation.

When she got waxed, did she show it off to you and use it to turn you on?


----------



## Decorum

CynthiaDe said:


> That is trying way too hard.


Ha ha ha ha ha, ya think?

Nice smile, great voice, beautiful, funny, wounderful dancer.

Not necessarily wife material in and of themselves, but a great candidate for one of the nationally televised talent type shows. 

No sex? Yep thats where you should start. She has lost interest in you. I wonder why?

I dont think adding a pair of pam-pams to your cheerleading ensemble will make any difference.

Of all that you have tried that has not worked, what else could be done to raise her wanning or perhaps absent interest level?

Your wife sounds like the kind of woman that many men would love to ravage sexually, she might not give many of them a second look, she hardly gives you that now, but under the right circumstances, wow!

I coached HS Basketball for a number of years. There was a young man on the freshman team who had all the tools, skilled beyond his years, but he wouldn't shoot the ball. His insecurities keeped him from reaching his potential and eventually drained away the respect of his peers, and his opportunities.

He is paying his own way through school now.

If because of your insecurities you refuse to accept the rules of the game and the purpose of execution, then all you have left is rants and regrets, and the pity of anyone who has the stomach to listen to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Its odd I just started watching a show on HBO on demand that has an agent in it. Its called ENTOURAGE. The agent is a main character and he sounds exactly like your wife. He says his job is 24/7. He is constantly playing his family too.


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## bfree

Pee on the floor? Are we talking about your wife or a Pomeranian?


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## techmom

cinnabomb said:


> Yep. almost all of this is right on. still leaves me with the big question, which is WTf do I do and can it be saved? She is going to have to WANT to save it, but honestly I'm not giving her much reason right now because I'm not being really warm to her or anything. The only reason she has ever brought up for saving the relationship is that I am a good father and she doesnt want a broken home for our baby, but it saddens me that she has never once said that she wants to save it because she wants me. :frown2:


Sorry to say, but she is not going to want to save this relationship for the reasons you would prefer her to. She sees you as a convenience right now, because of the baby, but you still want to change her back to the other person she was, while she is done being that person. This doesn't add up to great marriage saving potential here.

I'm going to be blunt and not sugar coat it, your cheerleading routine was annoying her, especially when she had a full day dealing with men who wield the power she wants to wield. She probably saw it as needy, which probably triggered the response you received. Women in general who are in high power positions don't want neediness from their man, they need someone to lean on for support. Not a person who wants them to be their former powerless self. And make no mistake, she sees you dissatisfied because you want her to be powerless, she feels as she grew from that.

This colors her perception of the entire relationship. She doesn't want someone who wants to pull her back to her former self, because her former self had to be abandoned in order to become powerful and gain the lifestyle she wants. You have to decide if this is what you want, and it is evident that you do not. She is not going to fully engage in becoming the wife you knew, she may show glimpses but then she will remain her present self.

Question is not what she will do, but what YOU will do with all of this evidence?


----------



## cinnabomb

OK let me answer some Q's. the pee on the floor is always in front of the toilet. it happens when you piddle on the seat a bit and it splashes onto the floor and you dont care enough to wipe it up. 

When she got the bikini wax she didnt not tell me she was doing it or show me or anything like that. This is a SEXLESS marriage, why would she do that? We have sex maybe once every 3 months right now. I barely even see her naked these days. 

Ok seems like people are latched onto the "cheering" thing. It was really sort of a funny joke that we starting doing, and the truth is she actually loved it. She would have a really tough day, and would walk in with a grimace, and when I gave her a couple claps it boosted her good-feeling and she would beam and say "thank you honey". Dont obsess over a stupid small detail, honestly It was a jokey kind of thing and it's not relevant. 

The issue wasn't there, it was with the deep personality changes going on. As for sex, it started to diminish during these hard transition years, but totally disappeared when she was pregnant (she was scared to do it), and then after baby was born. The baby highlighted and brought forward all of the issues we truly had because it gave us a reason to have a difference of opinions about a serious subject almost daily, and my wife doesnt deal well with a different opinion than hers and her only way to deal with it it with aggression and hostility to try and destroy that person. It's what she learned in Hollywood 101 from her partner.


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> When she got the bikini wax she didnt not tell me she was doing it or show me or anything like that. This is a SEXLESS marriage, why would she do that? We have sex maybe once every 3 months right now. I barely even see her naked these days.


Your wife has another man. Do not tell her you think she is cheating. Time to gather evidence, see an attorney, and prepare for the next steps.

Women do not get a wax job for themselves.


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## techmom

Whether or not she is having an affair, there is a major disconnect and they are growing apart. The new powerful and ambitious wife is probably desiring something that the op is not giving her, usually if there is an affair it occurs as a result of existing problems.


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## Blossom Leigh

Hold up yall... We need some time frames.

When did she get the wax job, before or after baby? Was it only once? Or is it frequent now?

Also... How frequent was sex before the baby?

Since your child is under two it is very common for the female body to produce a hormone that suppresses sex drive while an infant is breast feeding. So her lowered sex drive could have nothing to do with you or even the state of your marriage and everything to do with something very common and normal. Yet, its triggering all these emotional issues in you. Slow down, look it up and you will see what I'm referring to. You do not want to tank all the progress with inaccurate perspectives. 

Your wife took on a high powered career that brought a lot of changes and then yall had a baby. Babies change everything in a big way. Don't tank this marriage by not being able to adjust. If you are going to divorce you want it to be with accurate information, accurate perspectives, reasonable opinion and knowing everything you could do was done. If not, I'm afraid your personal regret could eat you up.

Lets compare pre and post baby sex and go from there... And look closer at waxing time frame.

Also for the whole not seeing her naked issue, that also happens post pregnancy to a lot of women not liking their post pregnancy bodies. If you have made comments about her body not measuring up to her, it could be even worse. So she hides it from herself and you potentially.


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## Blossom Leigh

And fwiw... I wondered if you were spiraling at times yesterday.


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## bandit.45

Weird. This whole thing comes across to me as a weird, toxic....I dunno....it's not a marriage.. Whether or not she's cheating or not. The relationship itself is bizarre and weird and not remotely resembling what any of us would recognize as a warm, close, loving relationship. It strikes me as a brother sister competitive thing going on. A brother and sister who barely tolerate each other. Except for the baby, what is worth fighting for here?

Pee on the floor? What? What the fvck is going on?


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## Decorum

Back and forth, back and forth, back and...



cinnabomb said:


> I can't even describe the level of egregious behavior from her, usually completely unprovoked. If you had seen it, you would have thought she was 100% certifiable. Im talking waiting up for her, cooked dinner for her, clap when she comes in the door and yell "yay" because I wanted her to feel loved when she walked in, and 5 minutes later she was completely losing her shyit over nothing, berating me, etc. You dont know but try and take my word.
> .






cinnabomb said:


> Ok seems like people are latched onto the "cheering" thing. It was really sort of a funny joke that we starting doing, and the truth is she actually loved it. She would have a really tough day, and would walk in with a grimace, and when I gave her a couple claps it boosted her good-feeling and she would beam and say "thank you honey". Dont obsess over a stupid small detail, honestly It was a jokey kind of thing and it's not relevant.



If there is any obsessive behavior hapening cinnabomb it is not on the part of the oh so patient posters who have stuck with you here, ha ha, take another look.

You seem incapable of focused self reflection and are in denial and dismissive when your behaviors are shown to be unmanly and consequently unattractive in the larger scheme of things.

This is called equivocation, you do it constantly, it's usually a fear based defense mechanism, and is a common sign of persistent denial.

It is unlikely you can extricate yourself from it without professional help, that is barring the helpful intervention of a traumatizing life experience that forces you to rebuild from the bottom up. Thankfully, judging by the big headlight headed toward you down the middle of those train tracks, helpful intervention is on its way.




cinnabomb said:


> I woke up this morning feeling F-ed up in the head. See the thing is, when we arent having any serious conversations and things are ok, then at times they are really nice. Like a normal family. But when stuff like this happens, and I need to have a serious talk with her, to tell her about something that she did that was hurtful, or anything that isnt working, or even something that my opinion with baby is different on, things go absolutely haywire and it makes me lose hope for the future. I just cant imagine that a person can become so egocentric and narcissistic that they cannot see past themselves to be able to understand a different perspective. I have always been really good at putting myself in other peoples shoes, so maybe Im on the far end of the spectrum, but still, that's messed up isnt it?
> 
> I mean it's like she thinks that she doesn't make mistakes. And that arrogance/narcissism has really developed the last 5 years from this job. It's really difficult to get along with. The other thing that is really bothering me lately (aside from the usual neglect), is that she seems two-faced a lot of the times. Like she goes OUT of her way to be overly nice to our friends wives, buying them flowers and sweets for literally every occasion possible, to the point that it's over the top. I'm like WTF she is buying flowers like 2x a week for no reasons. And these other women are like "oh youre soooo sweet" and it upsets me because im like, here I am, your husband, who has protected and taken care of you for 15 years, and I am completely unfulfilled and you dont do a single thing for me. I havent said that to her like that I am just talking out loud here.


You have every right to feel f-ed up in the head.
Get yourself some help.

Good luck, I'm out.

_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Cinnabomb you need to get yourself into some deep PTSD and psychological counseling. Your poor marriage is only a symptom of a much deeper problem, a problem that has most likely affected every facet of your life. Childhood abuse and neglect destroyed your sense of self. You had some stability for the first few years of your marriage when your wife was dependent on you. It gave you a sense of normalcy and stability. 

Now that she is living her own life, that stability is gone. IMO the problem is, because your childhood was so whacked, you never developed the ability to self soothe and take care of your own emotional needs. That's what I think we are seeing here. You see your wife as your anchor and refuge. Well she has changed and that refuge is gone. So now all you have is yourself. 

You need to take the focus off of her and put it back on yourself and exploring the root issues of your codependency and lack of self confidence. You need to confront the demons of your childhood and purge them....without your wife. She cannot help you, even if she wanted to, which it appears she could care less. So you have to start taking care of you and quit waiting for her to come to your rescue.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Hold up yall... We need some time frames.
> 
> When did she get the wax job, before or after baby? Was it only once? Or is it frequent now?
> 
> Also... How frequent was sex before the baby?
> 
> Since your child is under two it is very common for the female body to produce a hormone that suppresses sex drive while an infant is breast feeding. So her lowered sex drive could have nothing to do with you or even the state of your marriage and everything to do with something very common and normal. Yet, its triggering all these emotional issues in you. Slow down, look it up and you will see what I'm referring to. You do not want to tank all the progress with inaccurate perspectives.
> 
> Your wife took on a high powered career that brought a lot of changes and then yall had a baby. Babies change everything in a big way. Don't tank this marriage by not being able to adjust. If you are going to divorce you want it to be with accurate information, accurate perspectives, reasonable opinion and knowing everything you could do was done. If not, I'm afraid your personal regret could eat you up.
> 
> Lets compare pre and post baby sex and go from there... And look closer at waxing time frame.
> 
> Also for the whole not seeing her naked issue, that also happens post pregnancy to a lot of women not liking their post pregnancy bodies. If you have made comments about her body not measuring up to her, it could be even worse. So she hides it from herself and you potentially.


BL, you said exactly what I have been thinking and trying to figure out myself. On my other forum NMMNG, everyone just says "get out, get divorced!", but I keep telling them that I want to be sure I gave it my all first and that I'm not clouding my thoughts because I am emotional, etc. And I'm sure I am. 

Ok so sex before pregnancy was about 1x per week, sometimes less. She never initiated. I always did and sometimes she would reject me like "now, im tired how about in the morning", or whatever, but it wasnt too bad. I will admit that sex got worse and less frequent slowly with her new job. Not sure if its all connected with her becoming more "manly" and aggressive, etc, and pushing me away at the same time. But then there were also periods where she would work out and feel sexier and I could tell, and we had more sex. It still wasnt nearly enough for me, but I didnt complain because she also gave me HJs to at least give me release. 

After birth, we didnt even do it for about 6 months or so, and when we finally did it was like 1x per 3 months. very very rare. She also stopped giving HJs for the most part, or rather I stopped asking because I was just in a lot of pain and didnt even want to be around her. The baby changed everything. She sort of went insane for those first 6 months. Her family would stay with us and she would yell at everyone and no one but her could have an opinion on anything about baby. It was very very tough. We did our best to support her because she was barely sleeping, breastfeeding, etc. It was tough for everyone. 

Here's the kicker. She is still breastfeeding, 2 years later. So I dont know if that hormone you mention is still in action. Also, regarding waxing, I found a receipt for a bikini wax 4 pack last july. We had been to the pool a few times with baby prior to that but had not gone in awhile, but I'm sure it was something innocent like she thought we might go again and wanted to try it. I dont know. I have not noticed her do it again since then. But I will try and check...next time I see her naked.


----------



## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> Cinnabomb you need to get yourself into some deep PTSD and psychological counseling. Your poor marriage is only a symptom of a much deeper problem, a problem that has most likely affected every facet of your life. Childhood abuse and neglect destroyed your sense of self. You had some stability for the first few years of your marriage when your wife was dependent on you. It gave you a sense of normalcy and stability.
> 
> Now that she is living her own life, that stability is gone. IMO the problem is, because your childhood was so whacked, you never developed the ability to self soothe and take care of your own emotional needs. That's what I think we are seeing here. You see your wife as your anchor and refuge. Well she has changed and that refuge is gone. So now all you have is yourself.
> 
> You need to take the focus off of her and put it back on yourself and exploring the root issues of your codependency and lack of self confidence. You need to confront the demons of your childhood and purge them....without your wife. She cannot help you, even if she wanted to, which it appears she could care less. So you have to start taking care of you and quit waiting for her to come to your rescue.


well there is some truth in what you said, I definitely have some issues with codependancy. Ive been with wife for 15 years in a relationship that was literally like we were joined together for most of it. I loved it, but yea it made whats happening now much harder. 

As for my childhood you are quite wrong. I was loved a lot. mom was wonderful and nurturing and dad was loving but also very tough on me too, as he had high expectations. Their marriage was not great though. But I never felt neglected at all. I think it was more a factor of a tough father with really high expectations of me, and me being a total romantic and fantasizing about my dream girl as a way to relieve the pressure...and then one day I found her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> BL, you said exactly what I have been thinking and trying to figure out myself. On my other forum NMMNG, everyone just says "get out, get divorced!", but I keep telling them that I want to be sure I gave it my all first and that I'm not clouding my thoughts because I am emotional, etc. And I'm sure I am.
> 
> Ok so sex before pregnancy was about 1x per week, sometimes less. She never initiated. I always did and sometimes she would reject me like "now, im tired how about in the morning", or whatever, but it wasnt too bad. I will admit that sex got worse and less frequent slowly with her new job. Not sure if its all connected with her becoming more "manly" and aggressive, etc, and pushing me away at the same time. But then there were also periods where she would work out and feel sexier and I could tell, and we had more sex. It still wasnt nearly enough for me, but I didnt complain because she also gave me HJs to at least give me release.
> 
> After birth, we didnt even do it for about 6 months or so, and when we finally did it was like 1x per 3 months. very very rare. She also stopped giving HJs for the most part, or rather I stopped asking because I was just in a lot of pain and didnt even want to be around her. The baby changed everything. She sort of went insane for those first 6 months. Her family would stay with us and she would yell at everyone and no one but her could have an opinion on anything about baby. It was very very tough. We did our best to support her because she was barely sleeping, breastfeeding, etc. It was tough for everyone.
> 
> Here's the kicker. She is still breastfeeding, 2 years later. So I dont know if that hormone you mention is still in action. Also, regarding waxing, I found a receipt for a bikini wax 4 pack last july. We had been to the pool a few times with baby prior to that but had not gone in awhile, but I'm sure it was something innocent like she thought we might go again and wanted to try it. I dont know. I have not noticed her do it again since then. But I will try and check...next time I see her naked.




Yea, that hormone can stick around a really long time and especially if she is still breast feeding. And it sounds like the wax job was just a summer of post baby pick me up for pool weather. Sounds innocent to me. These are the things its important to separate reality from your triggers. Yesterday sounded triggery to me. When you arent triggering your thoughts are super clear and reasonable. When you are triggering I see some catastrophizing. Aim for accurate. It will help you clear the fog and make decisions rooted in truth.


----------



## bandit.45

Sorry I guess I misinterpreted your story. I thought there had been abuse.

Well, I guess I just don't know what to tell you Cinnabomb.


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> Here's the kicker. She is still breastfeeding, 2 years later. So I dont know if that hormone you mention is still in action. Also, regarding waxing, I found a receipt for a bikini wax 4 pack last july. We had been to the pool a few times with baby prior to that but had not gone in awhile, but I'm sure it was something innocent like she thought we might go again and wanted to try it. I dont know. I have not noticed her do it again since then. But I will try and check...next time I see her naked.


Okay, that's a different story. If she was waxing her bikini line, because she was in a swim suit, that is pretty normal. I got the impression that she had her whole private region waxed for no apparent reason.


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, that hormone can stick around a really long time and especially if she is still bteast feeding. And it sounds like the wax job was just a summer of post baby pick me up for pool weather. Sounds innocent to me. These are the things its imporyant to separate reality from your triggers. Yesterday sounded triggery to me. When you arent triggering your thoughts are super clear and reasonable. When you are triggering I see some catastrophizing. Aim for accurate. It will help you clear the fog and make decisions rooted in truth.


Yea, youre right, yesterday was a tough day for me. It's just that she runs so hot and cold that it's like a roller coaster ride sometimes and it has me all over the place. Somedays she seems to be in a good mood, sometimes even a little affectionate or bubbly or whatever, and other days she will flat out stay in a different room than me and ignore me from sunup to sundown. Like WTF is going on? And since we are still coming off that whole unresolved "purse issue", she has been super awkward since then. 

Tomorrow we see MC again. I wrote MC an email and put a lot of this stuff out there that I think my wife seriously needs some real therapy and help for her narcissism and anger issues if we have a fighting chance. I can tell MC has to try and play an "even field" and never takes sides and says "yes you both have work to do" etc. Meanwhile I have bought and started reading 6 books AND working with an IC on trying to better myself, but it doesnt seem like she wants to change in any way. The biggest thing she keeps maintaining in MC session is that she wants to "be accepted", and to her I think that means "accept me how I am now, dont ever ask me for anything or tell me hat to do or criticize me". Am I the only one who thinks that is absolutely insane? That's like how a true narcissist wants to live their life. I don't think she understands that that is not reality and that a marriage requires work and some GIVING and some flexibility. I don't think she even knows what a true marriage is because her mom is the worlds laziest wife, never doing anything for anyone. Just sitting on her fat butt and chain-swallowing chocolates and playing candy crush from morning till night. 

I dunno. I think if she is open to change we have a shot. Im open to changing myself and Im trying. But I cant go at this alone.


----------



## cinnabomb

bandit.45 said:


> Sorry I guess I misinterpreted your story. I thought there had been abuse.
> 
> Well, I guess I just don't know what to tell you Cinnabomb.


not as a child. abuse from my wife (verbal, emotional, psychological), yes absolutely. was a really tough string of years. I still can't say a SINGLE thing to her that is even remotely "critical" or she will abuse me again. Like even small things make her lose her temper. 

For example, she struggles with some severe issues with overeating and impulse control with unhealthy foods (blame her mom, again) and I know she has been trying to lose some of the baby weight. the other day she was going to a toddler b-day party, and I knew it would be a bunch of unhealthy crap and wife has 0 willpower. We are texting back and forth and i say "ok have fun and try to eat healthy, it's probably a lot of junk food there". Of course, she gets angry and sort of snaps and then ignores me for the rest of the day. Then tells MC later that week how I was "so critical" of her. Granted, I understand that weight can be a trigger for women especially, but she tells me the same thing at times when I go out with friends "ok honey try not to drink too much" or whatever and I dont get mad.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Just don't forget that marriage is also about acceptance as well. Y'all just have to figure out what is acceptable, what's not and weed out the triggery stuff.


----------



## anchorwatch

CB, how about you? You seem to still be putting too much of your progress on what your W is doing. Are you stalled? How's your IC going? Your 180? Are you doing any of Dr. Glover's BFEs. Did you stop the readings?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I think you crossed the line nagging W about what she should eat at the party. THIS is what she is talking about - accept her body and accept her decisions about eating. It's HER body - you've made your point and she doesn't agree that it's important. So STFU about it - I'm pretty positive that's what she's saying. And I agree.


----------



## bandit.45

TheTruthHurts said:


> I think you crossed the line nagging W about what she should eat at the party. THIS is what she is talking about - accept her body and accept her decisions about eating. It's HER body - you've made your point and she doesn't agree that it's important. So STFU about it - I'm pretty positive that's what she's saying. And I agree.


This is just part of codependency. You project yourself onto your spouse, and what you dislike or like, approve or don't approve, they must agree with.


----------



## anchorwatch

cinnabomb said:


> For example, she struggles with some severe issues with overeating and impulse control with unhealthy foods (blame her mom, again) and I know she has been trying to lose some of the baby weight. the other day she was going to a toddler b-day party, and I knew it would be a bunch of unhealthy crap and wife has 0 willpower. We are texting back and forth and* i say "ok have fun and try to eat healthy, it's probably a lot of junk food there"*. Of course, she gets angry and sort of snaps and then ignores me for the rest of the day. Then tells MC later that week how I was "so critical" of her. Granted, I understand that weight can be a trigger for women especially, but she tells me the same thing at times when I go out with friends "ok honey try not to drink too much" or whatever and I dont get mad.


Boy, you really know how to put your foot in it. You really do have a problem with STFU, don't you. You really don't get it. She thinks it's you disapproving of her, attacking her, putting her down, on and on... HINT----> It's not helping!!! It doesn't matter how right your are or how you justify the scales of equality. She doesn't perceive you caring about her well-being. Until she does and not until then, will you make any headway. Keep it up CB, see how much intimacy that kind of caring remark gets you. 

BTW, did you really think that convo about her purse was going to be taken as anything more than admonishment? People lie because they're embarrassed and they don't want to feel diminished in the eyes of others.


----------



## kristin2349

anchorwatch said:


> Boy, you really know how to put your foot in it. You really do have a problem with STFU, don't you. You really don't get it. She thinks it's you disapproving of her, attacking her, putting her down, on and on... It's not helping!!! It doesn't matter how right your are or how you justify the scales of equality. She doesn't perceive you caring about her well-being. Until she does and not until then, you'll never make headway. Keep it up CB, see how much intimacy that kind of caring remark gets you.
> 
> BTW, did you really think that convo about her purse was going to be taken as anything more than admonishment? People lie because they're embarrassed and they don't want to feel diminished in the eyes of others.


I agree^^^ 

That comment about "try to eat healthy" is way out of line. It is controlling and belittling. "Don't drink too much" is different because eating a cupcake won't get you a DUI but having an extra bourbon will. If she is overweight she knows it, and she knows how to resolve it if she wants to, you reminding her does nothing but annoy the the living sh!t out of her. It isn't making her feel cared for, it is making her feel picked on and belittled. That is something you don't like in her yet you do it to her.

You post a lot of these gripes against her and then follow them up with excuses. Like her mother is to blame for her lack of self control and impulse control, or minimizing the fact that she apparently can't pee without getting it on the floor (which for a woman is quite confusing and almost impossible but whatever). Then you back track and minimize it when someone here posts questions for clarification. You'll then say it isn't the issue, when YOU were the one who brought it up.

You are painting the picture of a smothering man, IMO. You can't "fix" her, you can't make her change. You can only change you.

ETA: About the "smothering" behavior OP...She is never going to want to have sex with you if you keep that up. Women don't respond sexually to men who mother and smother them.


----------



## cinnabomb

EVG39 said:


> CB, look everybody here may be coming at you from different angles but one thing we all agree on is you absolutely have to get your focus off her and on to your own growth. Otherwise there won't be any marriage to save. I know you are a young guy and you like sports. So here's a model from the sports world for you. As of tonight you're a DGAF. She wants to eat a waffle and bacon sandwich for dinner you DGAF. She wants to veg out on Netflix watching shows about misunderstood serial killers, you DGAF. She's a grown up let her be responsible for her own choices. No this is not a forever plan it's merely a coping strategy for the next several months so you can pull yourself together and establish yourself as an autonomous human being. You have only so much emotional and mental energy. If you keep squandering it on her you are never going to get where you need to be if you have any hope of saving your marriage. If you keep on you are going to drive her right out the door and yourself crazy. Or both. Come on you can do it, we have seen you flash it. Just commit to it. DGAF.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I get it, you're right, and if I am being honest, me saying "try to eat healthy" is rooted in my deep fear that she is becoming her mother (which I really see happening right before my eyes), and the gods honest truth is that her mother represents the most repulsive form of a partner to me, and I know that deep down I cant love someone so fat and lazy and apathetic. Frankly it scares the piss out of me. She also will say something like "I want to lose a few baby pounds" so I also thought I was keeping it front of her mind. But either way, I get it and I wont bring it up. Its actually the first time I brought it up in a very long time because she used to get so mad that I stopped saying anything. 

As for the other stuff people said well lets agree to disagree. If I peed on the ground every day and she stepped in it every day and I selflessly stopped to think about how that started off every day badly for her, well then I would wipe it up. Thats just plain rude. The same way she told me "can you light a match after you take a dump" 7 years ago and I never once took a dump without lighting a match after, because I was being courteous to her. Same as she asked me to "please burp with my mouth closed" many years ago and now I do that too. I would expect some courtesy back from her on some of these too. 

So DGAF. Sure I can do that. I sort of have been with most other things. I guess partly because I am starting to lose hope in us and starting to not GAF, but at the same time I'm scared too. I mean, if she is destined to be her mom then why are we even trying? What's your experience on this?

Also, I actually did all the BFEs today and wrote down shorthand answers. It was good stuff. im going to re-read NMMNG again. Also, Im not that young, 35+.


----------



## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> I get it, you're right, and if I am being honest, me saying "try to eat healthy" is rooted in my deep fear that she is becoming her mother (which I really see happening right before my eyes), and the gods honest truth is that her mother represents the most repulsive form of a partner to me, and I know that deep down I cant love someone so fat and lazy and apathetic. Frankly it scares the piss out of me. She also will say something like "I want to lose a few baby pounds" so I also thought I was keeping it front of her mind. But either way, I get it and I wont bring it up. Its actually the first time I brought it up in a very long time because she used to get so mad that I stopped saying anything.
> 
> *I think @Turnera has said most women do become their mothers. She might want to chime in on that.*
> 
> As for the other stuff people said well lets agree to disagree. If I peed on the ground every day and she stepped in it every day and I selflessly stopped to think about how that started off every day badly for her, well then I would wipe it up. Thats just plain rude. The same way she told me "can you light a match after you take a dump" 7 years ago and I never once took a dump without lighting a match after, because I was being courteous to her. Same as she asked me to "please burp with my mouth closed" many years ago and now I do that too. I would expect some courtesy back from her on some of these too.
> 
> *I don't think one person here thinks this is OK. It is f'ing gross TBH and I'd flip my sh!t if I stepped in someone's pee with bare feet. I don't know how a woman does that. Women pee sitting down so peeing on the floor or the seat is not a common occurrence but if you bring it up to her and she keeps doing  I have no clue how you "should" handle that. If it was happening to me I'd wipe it up with that persons pillow or toothbrush, I'm sure that isn't the recommended method but it would get their attention.*
> 
> So DGAF. Sure I can do that. I sort of have been with most other things. I guess partly because I am starting to lose hope in us and starting to not GAF, but at the same time I'm scared too. I mean, if she is destined to be her mom then why are we even trying? What's your experience on this?
> 
> Also, I actually did all the BFEs today and wrote down shorthand answers. It was good stuff. im going to re-read NMMNG again. Also, Im not that young, 35+.


----------



## Celes

kristin2349 said:


> I agree^^^
> 
> That comment about "try to eat healthy" is way out of line. It is controlling and belittling. "Don't drink too much" is different because eating a cupcake won't get you a DUI but having an extra bourbon will. *If she is overweight she knows it*, and she knows how to resolve it if she wants to, you reminding her does nothing but annoy the the living sh!t out of her. It isn't making her feel cared for, it is making her feel picked on and belittled. That is something you don't like in her yet you do it to her.
> 
> You post a lot of these gripes against her and then follow them up with excuses. Like her mother is to blame for her lack of self control and impulse control, or minimizing the fact that she apparently can't pee without getting it on the floor (which for a woman is quite confusing and almost impossible but whatever). Then you back track and minimize it when someone here posts questions for clarification. You'll then say it isn't the issue, when YOU were the one who brought it up.
> 
> You are painting the picture of a smothering man, IMO. You can't "fix" her, you can't make her change. You can only change you.
> 
> ETA: About the "smothering" behavior OP...She is never going to want to have sex with you if you keep that up. Women don't respond sexually to men who mother and smother them.


She's not even overweight. He said her starting weight was 105 lbs and she gained 15-20 lbs... Unless she's under 5' tall, she's perfectly healthy. She's in her mid 30s and had a baby. No wonder she is feeling so judged and unaccepted. 

She's the breadwinner, makes $200k+, while being a great mom. But she is somehow "destined" to be fat and lazy like her mom, eating bonbons and doing nothing all day 

Edit: I will say the pee thing is nasty and has me totally puzzled. Like how is that even possible lol


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## jld

Not sure what becoming our mothers is supposed to mean?

I have six older sisters. Not one of us is just like our mother, nor identical to each other. My daughter is not just like me, either. 

Your fear may be unfounded, OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh

Yea, you are going to have to stop obsessing about her mom. My Mom and I are POLAR opposites.


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## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> I get it, you're right, and if I am being honest, me saying "try to eat healthy" is rooted in my deep fear that she is becoming her mother (which I really see happening right before my eyes), and the gods honest truth is that her mother represents the most repulsive form of a partner to me, and I know that deep down I cant love someone so fat and lazy and apathetic.


I guarantee you she knows that. So anything you say about eating or weight - you are insulting her.

And the sad thing is, you're too chicken to just tell her this truth of yours.


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## cinnabomb

Celes said:


> She's not even overweight. He said her starting weight was 105 lbs and she gained 15-20 lbs... Unless she's under 5' tall, she's perfectly healthy. She's in her mid 30s and had a baby. No wonder she is feeling so judged and unaccepted.
> 
> She's the breadwinner, makes $200k+, while being a great mom. But she is somehow "destined" to be fat and lazy like her mom, eating bonbons and doing nothing all day
> 
> Edit: I will say the pee thing is nasty and has me totally puzzled. Like how is that even possible lol


celes, you're back? please leave.


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## cinnabomb

well its not a random fear that I'm having. She is actually copying a lot of the traits about her mom that she despises herself and it scares me. The emotional distance, and severe neglect, the addictive behaviors, the lack of effort in a relationship etc. I didnt see it until after she gave birth....thats when things started to go really haywire. 

My wifes mom was VERY selfish when my wife was young, and hurtful to my wife in a very deep and profound way. wife said that she truly felt alone and without a mother growing up. her mom was off partying and whatnot and let the nanny handle everything to the point where my wife thought her nanny was her best friend and even surrogate mom. 

As she grew up she really learned to put up this emotional wall and stay numb, not allowing herself to give love or receive it very well. I was one of the first people that was able to break that down when we met and it was wonderful, really open and honest love for many years. 

Anyways, when a couple people here, as well as MC, and others have said that people often become just like their parents, it got me thinking and got me really scared. I never thought about this before, but then I started to open my eyes and saw the patterns and it all clicked and scared the F out of me. I can try to ignore it, but its not coincidence. I mean, I will be the first to admit that that I too struggle with trying to NOT be my dad, and at times I fall into that trap as well. Its hard to avoid sometimes.


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## Cynthia

Your wife is not her mother. 
Keep in mind that people respond to stimulus, either negatively or positively. You can't live your life on eggshells, but you can learn how to behave in a manner that is not generally annoying by micromanaging her eating for example.
It doesn't work and makes matters much worse.


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## 3kgtmitsu

Im calling B.S. on the whole alpha vs beta topic. That's high school romance logic.

You can be confident without being an *******, and have a genuinely good heart. It has nothing to do with Alpha vs Beta, it has to do with just being confident with yourself and honestly realizing you need no one for validation. Any woman who respects men who are just the arrogant over confident type are immature in their choices anyways and really are not worth your while. And as a husband, unless your off being a fool, and not putting effort into your marriage you DESERVE respect. If she doesn't give it, that's HER bad. Not yours.

The sad thing, is in a marriage it should be ok to not have to put on and act, and allow yourself to be venerable, and it should never be held against you.

But yes, be less of a doormat, I believe its a 2 way street, if your not getting anything out of the relationship and its always you giving and never receiving, then its time to shake things up.



Idun said:


> She has lost respect for you, that's why she is treating you this way.
> 
> Whether we like it or not, we (women) are kind of programmed to desire Alpha type males that are powerful, good providers, and garner the respect of others. The Beta males get used and disrespected (and no sex or appreciation).
> 
> Men (it seems) generally don't seem to know how to stand up for themselves to their women/wives, when they're being disrespected. And every time we get away with disrespecting you, we lose a little more respect _for you_. A man can seem Alpha at the start of the relationship when both people are on their best behaviour (the woman acts ultra feminine because of hormones and to seduce, and the man more masculine). The man can end up Beta after a few years when the whirlwind dies down - mundane stressors weigh on the relationship and each person stops being on their 'best behaviour'.
> 
> Not only does she have more power than you, and more money than you, but you're taking up all the nurturing duties at home. She's become more masculine and you've become (it sounds) feminized to balance things out. I personally really believe in balance, it seems the more masculine one partner is the more feminine the other becomes, to always have a balance. This can change very quickly, several times in a day.
> 
> It's good for her to be assertive, determined, 'no bull$hit' at work - depending on that environment. But no matter how much of a lioness a woman is out in the world (and when it comes to her kids  ) - when it comes to her husband she should know how to be a kitten and switch off the domineering side (there's nothing better!).
> 
> But something has to trigger this. You - in your current doormat state - keep her in her high powered state. There's nothing to trigger her to switch out of that mode.
> 
> If you don't want to abandon things, I would consider the Married Man Sex Life resources Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.
> 
> Also this book and similar types of books No More Mr Nice Guy: Robert A. Glover: 9780762415335: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Reinvent yourself to be the pure masculine man she desires and will respect and admire, instead of a whinging servant. NO amount of talking or counselling will make a difference until she respects you again. Unless you man up. You are being way too NICE to her, and taking every hit with your eyes to the floor. Just hoping she will start looking your way or show any interest (turn off, much?).
> 
> You work full time? She works too, making plenty of money you say - well you can afford to pay for a cleaner, other in-house help - if she's too busy to lift a finger. This is HUGE. She sees you - willing to do all the cooking, cleaning, (laundry? shopping? ) as well as work full time, AND put up with her behaviour - she sees someone who doesn't respect HIMSELF. So why should she respect you? And don't ask about getting a maid/cook, just bloody do it. If she has anything to say, just state matter of factly that you're not prepared to do more than half the housework anymore as you work enough (or maybe you should do less than half - depending on how many hours a week she works??? If she does half the hours you do, she should do 75% of the chores... if my maths is right).
> 
> Do you see where I'm coming from??


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## cinnabomb

3kgtmitsu said:


> Im calling B.S. on the whole alpha vs beta topic. That's high school romance logic.
> 
> You can be confident without being an *******, and have a genuinely good heart. It has nothing to do with Alpha vs Beta, it has to do with just being confident with yourself and honestly realizing you need no one for validation. Any woman who respects men who are just the arrogant over confident type are immature in their choices anyways and really are not worth your while. And as a husband, unless your off being a fool, and not putting effort into your marriage you DESERVE respect. If she doesn't give it, that's HER bad. Not yours.
> 
> The sad thing, is in a marriage it should be ok to not have to put on and act, and allow yourself to be venerable, and it should never be held against you.
> 
> But yes, be less of a doormat, I believe its a 2 way street, if your not getting anything out of the relationship and its always you giving and never receiving, then its time to shake things up.


having a hard time with this. ive been doing the 180, which is basically just not really engaging with her, and for the most part she is mimicking me and ignoring me too. doesnt seem to be doing anything at all. so what exactly does "shake things up" mean? what exactly does it mean to be "alpha"? should I mark my territory by farting in her face and pissing on the ground? im joking, but for real....I just dont know WTF this all means.


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## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> having a hard time with this. ive been doing the 180, which is basically just not really engaging with her, and for the most part she is mimicking me and ignoring me too. doesnt seem to be doing anything at all. so what exactly does "shake things up" mean? what exactly does it mean to be "alpha"? should I mark my territory by farting in her face and pissing on the ground? im joking, but for real....I just dont know WTF this all means.


Newbies always misunderstand the Nice Guy stuff. They think a Nice Guy is a healthy person and to NOT be a Nice Guy means beating your chest and hitting your woman.

Women not respecting weak men is basic psychology and you'll see it in tons of textbooks. Just the other day I listened to a news story about all the men becoming SAHDs and how the mental capacity to deal with this is not catching up and it's affecting marriages big time.

cb, have you TOLD your wife of your very real fear? In MC?


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## farsidejunky

anchorwatch said:


> CB, how about you? You seem to still be putting too much of your progress on what your W is doing. Are you stalled? How's your IC going? Your 180? Are you doing any of Dr. Glover's BFEs. Did you stop the readings?


QFT.

CB, your wife's actions have nothing to do with you trying to become a better man.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> I get it, you're right, and if I am being honest, me saying "try to eat healthy" is rooted in my deep fear that she is becoming her mother (which I really see happening right before my eyes), and the gods honest truth is that her mother represents the most repulsive form of a partner to me, and I know that deep down I cant love someone so fat and lazy and apathetic. Frankly it scares the piss out of me. She also will say something like "I want to lose a few baby pounds" so I also thought I was keeping it front of her mind. But either way, I get it and I wont bring it up. Its actually the first time I brought it up in a very long time because she used to get so mad that I stopped saying anything.
> 
> As for the other stuff people said well lets agree to disagree. If I peed on the ground every day and she stepped in it every day and I selflessly stopped to think about how that started off every day badly for her, well then I would wipe it up. Thats just plain rude. The same way she told me "can you light a match after you take a dump" 7 years ago and I never once took a dump without lighting a match after, because I was being courteous to her. Same as she asked me to "please burp with my mouth closed" many years ago and now I do that too. I would expect some courtesy back from her on some of these too.
> 
> So DGAF. Sure I can do that. I sort of have been with most other things. I guess partly because I am starting to lose hope in us and starting to not GAF, but at the same time I'm scared too. I mean, if she is destined to be her mom then why are we even trying? What's your experience on this?
> 
> Also, I actually did all the BFEs today and wrote down shorthand answers. It was good stuff. im going to re-read NMMNG again. Also, Im not that young, 35+.


So you are hanging on that one thing to somehow justify your behavior?

I thought you were growing a week ago, CB. I thought wrong.

I also thought your wife was a significant part of the problem. Her issues in this marriage PALE in comparison to yours.

You are toxic, CB. Many quality posters are trying to point that out. Your response? 

DARVO 

If you continue as you are, you are legitimately earning losing your marriage.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> well its not a random fear that I'm having. She is actually copying a lot of the traits about her mom that she despises herself and it scares me. The emotional distance, and severe neglect, the addictive behaviors, the lack of effort in a relationship etc. I didnt see it until after she gave birth....thats when things started to go really haywire.
> 
> My wifes mom was VERY selfish when my wife was young, and hurtful to my wife in a very deep and profound way. wife said that she truly felt alone and without a mother growing up. her mom was off partying and whatnot and let the nanny handle everything to the point where my wife thought her nanny was her best friend and even surrogate mom.
> 
> As she grew up she really learned to put up this emotional wall and stay numb, not allowing herself to give love or receive it very well. I was one of the first people that was able to break that down when we met and it was wonderful, really open and honest love for many years.
> 
> Anyways, when a couple people here, as well as MC, and others have said that people often become just like their parents, it got me thinking and got me really scared. I never thought about this before, but then I started to open my eyes and saw the patterns and it all clicked and scared the F out of me. I can try to ignore it, but its not coincidence. I mean, I will be the first to admit that that I too struggle with trying to NOT be my dad, and at times I fall into that trap as well. Its hard to avoid sometimes.


Then do her a favor and set her free to find someone who WILL accept her and love her for who she is, not what someone else wants her to be.

Toxic.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> *So you are hanging on that one thing to somehow justify your behavior?
> *
> I thought you were growing a week ago, CB. I thought wrong.
> 
> I also thought your wife was a significant part of the problem. Her issues in this marriage PALE in comparison to yours.
> 
> You are toxic, CB. Many quality posters are trying to point that out. Your response?
> 
> DARVO
> 
> *If you continue as you are, you are legitimately earning losing your marriage.
> *
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Agree, when you spiral, lock in on your wife's issues obsessively to fix your own pain, you in turn pour out toxicity. It is why fixing those things in healthy ways, with counsel, self awareness, personal self study, paying attention to the difference between constructive and destructive and cultivating skill sets on the constructive side is so important. Day before yesterday, you were constructive. Yesterday, you flipped to destructive. It's up to you to figure out why and fix it.


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## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Then do her a favor and set her free to find someone who WILL accept her and love her for who she is, not what someone else wants her to be.
> 
> Toxic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yes, he has toxicity, but I too would not accept someone who pee's in the floor and is secretive with money, OR friends of the opposite sex and has the toxic outburst she has. I think it is safe to say there are major issues on both sides. They have a LOT of work ahead of them.


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## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, he has toxicity, but I too would not accept someone who pee's in the floor and is secretive with money, OR friends of the opposite sex and has the toxic outburst she has. I think it is safe to say there are major issues on both sides. They have a LOT of work ahead of them.


I don't disagree. But recognize the pattern.

CB wants change from his wife. So he hovers on a few specific problems that range from significant to menial, and he leverages these problems over his wife to try to get her to change.

Then when he gets challenged, he gives a great, big, "I know I need work, but...". Insert finger pointing, DARVO, justifying, minimizing, and rationalizing. CLASSIC NICE GUY STUFF.

If he put half as much effort into changing himself as he has into trying to get her to change, their marriage would likely be in a much better place.

For the second time I will tell you to reread NMMNG (third time in total). Your problems are rooted in that.

Hurt people hurt people, CB. That is you in a nutshell.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I said that so that he would be aware of when he is prickly and work to create a different environment around his wife... not sure you got that from what I said chunder, but that was the intent.




Yep, agree Far... He has to interrupt the patterns that cause him to flip into toxicity. He is further down the road of recognizing them, but not near where he needs to be. Great advice. He can do that totally independent of her. He is just not the cause of all of her problems and that is where you will see me split off. Yes, independency, but don't receive misplaced blame. imo, it takes balanced perspective on what lies on his shoulders and what lies on hers.


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## turnera

cb, what exactly are you covering in IC?


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I don't disagree. But recognize the pattern.
> 
> CB wants change from his wife. So he hovers on a few specific problems that range from significant to menial, and he leverages these problems over his wife to try to get her to change.
> 
> Then when he gets challenged, he gives a great, big, "I know I need work, but...". Insert finger pointing, DARVO, justifying, minimizing, and rationalizing. CLASSIC NICE GUY STUFF.
> 
> If he put half as much effort into changing himself as he has into trying to get her to change, their marriage would likely be in a much better place.
> 
> For the second time I will tell you to reread NMMNG (third time in total). Your problems are rooted in that.
> 
> Hurt people hurt people, CB. That is you in a nutshell.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Far, do you see yourself in him?


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## Celes

cinnabomb said:


> celes, you're back? please leave.


You're free to put me ignore anytime you wish.

I will still stick to my opinion that your comparison of your wife to her mother is pretty far fetched. You claim your MIL is "fat and lazy" and doesn't do anything all day, and left her daughter at home while she partied. Meanwhile, your wife brings in the bacon, takes care of the baby, and only gained 15-20 lbs over a 15 year period while having a baby. I don't see the correlation at all and I think you're being pretty unfair about it. 

The lack of affection you're seeing has nothing to do with your MIL. You're just looking to blame shift because it's easy. Just like you like to blame her partner for everything instead of accepting that your wife has grown into a different woman and is no longer the 20 year old you married.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Far, do you see yourself in him?


Who I used to be? Yep.

But with a much higher level of resistance to scrutiny.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, he has toxicity, but I too would not accept someone who pee's in the floor and is secretive with money, OR friends of the opposite sex and has the toxic outburst she has. I think it is safe to say there are major issues on both sides. They have a LOT of work ahead of them.


THIS. I'm just fed up of the neglect and sbuse. Its going on 7 years now and after a year of MC, almost nothing has changed from her. She hasn't put a single ounce of effort into the marriage and still continues to ignore and neglect me every single day. 

As for the recent "toxicity" you are talking about, I get what you all are saying, but there is more to it that you need to know as well. I am working with a Doc in IC who specializes in NMMNG. And one of the biggest issues he has me working on is finally have the strength in voicing my disatisfactions with her. Perhaps the eating thing is more sensitive (though I see no difference in her saying "try not to drink too much" and it has nothing to do with a DUI because Im taking an Uber), but there is nothing out of line with the whole purse thing. Her secrecy has destroyed a lot of our trust and there is a level of shadiness that still makes me think "how much more dont I know about?"

I'm not going to do this right every time, but I'm not going to bury my pain anymore either. Saying that "its impossible for a woman to not pee on the floor" is just plain ignorant, because maybe its impossible to not pee on it, but its certainly not impossible to have the courtesy to wipe it. Now multiply this level of inconsiderate behavior x10 because thats what a day in my house is like. 

And being the primary caregiver for our baby is a wonderful thing, but that doesnt do anything for ME. I took care of her for more than 12 years and have always played second fiddle to something else, school, career, etc. I wish I new this stuff earlier as I could have talked about it with her and if I realized she truly wasnt capable of putting my in the forefront of her thoughts, well then at least I would have known before investing 15 years. 

Honestly, I am struggling with being "positive" around her when every SINGLE day begins and ends with her brash cold shoulder behavior. I dont know if you guys have ever been through it, but having a spouse literally not say a single word beyond "im leaving" when they leave in the morning and "goodnight". Not ONE other word. You guys talk about creating a better environment. I tried that for years. I was the nice guy. I was upbeat and always trying to bond and have fun and it got me nowhere. So now I have been instructed to do the 180 and I am struggling with how to do that well also. 

But I'm not seeing any difference in her, other than she is just imitating me and closing herself off ever MORE. Every person in my NMMNG forum is convinced that she is BPD, and I am trying to learn what that entails and how to deal with that. Every article I have read about BPD is EXACTLY what she is like and what my experience has been like for many years. So give me a break, I'm going to make mistakes, but if I am truly dealing with a person with legitimate deep mental issues, then I'm fighting a really uphill battle here. I honestly don't see any end in sight and its pretty terrifying. 

In the meantime, I am still working on myself, doing the BFEs, and yes I've read NMMNG 2x, and working on the other books as well. I'm just really tired of always being the one to initiate any conversation or any interaction, you know? So now I just feel like, "well why should I always do it." So I've stopped. But she hasnt stepped up and said "ok ill try then." This is what I mean when I say she "becomes" her mom, and binge watches tv and ignores me. Suddenly I'm not treating her like shes on a pedestal and I think that angers her because shes so used to it.


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## Blossom Leigh

@cinnabomb "I'm not going to do this right every time, but I'm not going to bury my pain anymore either."

It does take time to exercise those voice muscles. When you screw up its a great idea to apologize to her and then let it go and try again. It is like learning to walk all over again. I am a BIG advocate of learning to use your voice when speaking in the past is almost non existant. Incredibly important to have a voice in relationships. When I first found mine, it was rough trying to learn to use it well. At first, I was over zealous with it and it has taken me time to learn to be accurate, but kind. Preserve your dignity when you can. 

And when you are ready to stick a fork in this relationship.. it's not going to surprise me.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> @cinnabomb "I'm not going to do this right every time, but I'm not going to bury my pain anymore either."
> 
> It does take time to exercise those voice muscles. When you screw up its a great idea to apologize to her and then let it go and try again. It is like learning to walk all over again. I am a BIG advocate of learning to use your voice when speaking in the past is almost non existant. Incredibly important to have a voice in relationships. When I first found mine, it was rough trying to learn to use it well. At first, I was over zealous with it and it has taken me time to learn to be accurate, but kind. Preserve your dignity when you can.
> 
> And when you are ready to stick a fork in this relationship.. it's not going to surprise me.


sigh I hear you and you're right. Sometimes I am so overzealous in trying to stand up for myself, I will catch myself saying "no" to something that I might have wanted to do, just to be able to hear the words "no" out of my mouth. It's a process. 

as for sticking a fork in it, i'm not ready to lose it all. I still love her deeply. I look at her every night when she sleeps and I see that same girl I fell in love with. I know she isn't the same, but a part of me is in denial. There are moments, you know? Moments when she shines. But when I think back, there are very little moments of "giving" to me. It saddens me. 

I ask myself if I am asking too much? Are all marriages like this, with issues and ups and downs? Should I just shut up and accept what I have and make the best of it? I then realize thats probably my nice guy side trying to justify it all. I mean, why shouldnt I deserve some happiness too? Do you know what taking sex away from a virile man does? It turns him into a toxic and bitter person who then scrambles to try and make sense of it all, spiraling and then focusing in on stupid little things that really arent the heart of the problem (case in point, weight, etc). 

I cant remember even one moment when she said to me in the last 7 years, "you look handsome." Never happened. Not one times in 10 years has she ever touched me intimately or kissed me intimately. Not ONCE. Even when we do have sex 1x per 3 months or so, she is so unbelievably self-centered and awkward, that I have to put HER hand on my junk. Does that sound even remotely normal? And during sex, she doesnt make a sound, barely moves, nothing. When i asked her after why she was so quiet, she will make up something like "the baby is sleeping", which is total BS. Baby is 3 rooms over with a sound machine and its been this way for 7 years or so, long before baby. 

And even despite all this, I love her. I love her for the things she IS, not the things she ISN'T. Doesnt mean I'm not in pain, because I am. But I want to save this and don't know how and feel like I'm the only one trying here. She always takes her cues from who is around her, very impressionable, so she will copy what I do usually. What do you think?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

duplicate


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> sigh I hear you and you're right. Sometimes I am so overzealous in trying to stand up for myself, I will catch myself saying "no" to something that I might have wanted to do, just to be able to hear the words "no" out of my mouth. It's a process.
> 
> as for sticking a fork in it, i'm not ready to lose it all. I still love her deeply. I look at her every night when she sleeps and I see that same girl I fell in love with. I know she isn't the same, but a part of me is in denial. There are moments, you know? Moments when she shines. But when I think back, there are very little moments of "giving" to me. It saddens me.
> 
> I ask myself if I am asking too much? Are all marriages like this, with issues and ups and downs? Should I just shut up and accept what I have and make the best of it? I then realize thats probably my nice guy side trying to justify it all. I mean, why shouldnt I deserve some happiness too? Do you know what taking sex away from a virile man does? It turns him into a toxic and bitter person who then scrambles to try and make sense of it all, spiraling and then focusing in on stupid little things that really arent the heart of the problem (case in point, weight, etc).
> 
> I cant remember even one moment when she said to me in the last 7 years, "you look handsome." Never happened. Not one times in 10 years has she ever touched me intimately or kissed me intimately. Not ONCE. Even when we do have sex 1x per 3 months or so, she is so unbelievably self-centered and awkward, that I have to put HER hand on my junk. Does that sound even remotely normal? And during sex, she doesnt make a sound, barely moves, nothing. When i asked her after why she was so quiet, she will make up something like "the baby is sleeping", which is total BS. Baby is 3 rooms over with a sound machine and its been this way for 7 years or so, long before baby.
> 
> And even despite all this, I love her. I love her for the things she IS, not the things she ISN'T. Doesnt mean I'm not in pain, because I am. But I want to save this and don't know how and feel like I'm the only one trying here. She always takes her cues from who is around her, very impressionable, so she will copy what I do usually. What do you think?


I personally could not live with lack of affection/sex. I am a highly affectionate person. So, this kind of stuff does not compute with me. I was highly affectionate even when we were having marital problems. I don't envy you.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> THIS. I'm just fed up of the neglect and abuse. Its going on 7 years now and after a year of MC, almost nothing has changed from her. She hasn't put a single ounce of effort into the marriage and still continues to ignore and neglect me every single day.


Why should she? You're not going anywhere.



> Honestly, I am struggling with being "positive" around her when every SINGLE day begins and ends with her brash cold shoulder behavior. I don't know if you guys have ever been through it, but having a spouse literally not say a single word beyond "I'm leaving" when they leave in the morning and "goodnight". Not ONE other word. You guys talk about creating a better environment. I tried that for years. I was the nice guy. I was upbeat and always trying to bond and have fun and it got me nowhere. So now I have been instructed to do the 180 and I am struggling with how to do that well also.


cb, how would you treat someone ELSE who doesn't say more than five words to you a day? Who holds you in contempt? Who uses and abuses you?

Would you be nice to THEM? Would you be making food for them? Kissing up?

No? Of course not.

So why can't you do that with her?


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## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> Why should she? You're not going anywhere.
> 
> cb, how would you treat someone ELSE who doesn't say more than five words to you a day? Who holds you in contempt? Who uses and abuses you?
> 
> Would you be nice to THEM? Would you be making food for them? Kissing up?
> 
> No? Of course not.
> 
> So why can't you do that with her?


I have been. This is what the "180" was all about. Ive been doing it for weeks now. I havent made her a single meal in that time or initiating anything with her and havent said yes to a single thing I didnt want to do, etc. All she has been is even MORE distant and neglectful. I guess maybe this is who she really is, I dont know. She has always been really insecure and sort of mirrors who is around her, so perhaps she is doing that now too. I dont know. Or maybe she is so used to being taken care of (at home, at work), that now she is looking at me going "how dare he ignore me, fine screw him I'll ignore him even worse." And she is MORE than capable of doing that because the truth is, I'm a highly affectionate person and she can easily close her walls off emotionally. 

Am I doing the 180 wrong?


----------



## turnera

Nope. Not unless you cave and start kissing her ass again.


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## cinnabomb

We had another MC session and it was about the same as most, but I am continuing to put myself out there more. I'm tired of being in there and not saying what's on my mind, so the last few sessions I am just doing it. I think the MC is getting a bit frustrated because she has to maintain this 50/50 approach to us, but I think thats BS. I wasnt the one who started all this shyit by changing my personality overnight and going nuts 5 years ago. I was still the same guy and wife was the one who started coming home angry and neglectful everyday after fighting with her partner all day long and then I reacted (and didnt react), and then it got WAY worse. So I am a bit tired of MC saying "youre both equally to blame" blah blah. 

I'm not saying I'm not taking responsibility, you know? I totally am. My behavior and weakness prolonged all this pain and made it worse. But I wasnt the unstable one who started it. I dont know. My wife just has so many anger issues, she snaps and gets "triggered" about ANYTHING. Like an example....in the MC I said "Im not even blaming her anymore. I just think we have totally different concepts of what a marriage is. Her concept of a marriage is something that is 'easy', that requires no work or effort, and if she wants to binge watch tv on her laptop every day and not lift a single finger for her husband, that's what she thinks a marriage is. Mine is different. I believe in being close and giving to each other and increasing the happiness and adding value to each other's lives."

I have thought long and hard about it and I think that sums up a lot of our issues. I think MC understood what I meant. Wife's big complaint is "I want him to accept me as I am" and I keep saying "how can I accept someone that does NOTHING for me. NOTHING. That's not a marriage." 

And today, after all this talk yesterday about how this will take a LOT of work to repair the marriage, she asks what I think about her going to back to school (online), for 4 more years, on top of her job, our baby, and us trying to work on our marriage. Of course I am thinking, "I still dont think she gets it, that she needs to start viewing our marriage as a priority and put some effort in", but i just said simply "decide what things in life you want to prioritize and put effort into and see if you can make this work without sacrificing the others." 

I have to commend myself for saying it like that. I have learned a lot. There was no "why would you even think that? What are you thinking? So you dont want to put work into the marriage? How will you have time for me??". I just said it to her plain and simple that its in her hands. 

Guess what? She still lost her cool, was snappy at me, and then went MIA. She simply cant handle ANYBODY saying ANYTHING she doesnt like. She has a severe anger management problem and needs help and I just dont see her changing that.


----------



## anchorwatch

Maybe she won't. That's up to her. ...Another point you're starting to understand.


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## cinnabomb

anchorwatch said:


> Maybe she won't. That's up to her. ...Another point you're starting to understand.


Yea. it is what it is. It's terrifying and I am admittedly trying my hardest here, but I am also starting to realize that I can't control everything. I can do what I can do and the rest is up to her, the world, god, whatever. 

Here we are, in MC for a year now, and I still see very little progress from her. At the very least, I can say that I have learned a ton about myself, and that's worth the price of admission. But it's sad. Today I wrote a long email to MC, saying I will no longer put up with being blamed for every one of her actions. She needs serious help for BPD and narcissism. etc. Let's see what she says.


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## EVG39

CB, here might be a useful exercise for you going forward to help you concentrate on your growth and get the focus off your wife. Every other post forbid yourself from mentioning your wife in any way, shape or form. Just focus on getting feedback on the work you are doing on yourself. Remember there is only so much emotional energy to go around. Think how the flight attendants tell a parent to put the oxygen mask on themselves first. Same reason you should be conserving your resources. Like I said only a suggestion but you might find it helpful. Or not. I certainly don't speak for other posters but I think there is some things I can offer that will help you move forward. But there is not much I can offer you now regarding your wife. Sorry she's just too wrapped up in her own world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

EVG39 said:


> CB, here might be a useful exercise for you going forward to help you concentrate on your growth and get the focus off your wife. Every other post forbid yourself from mentioning your wife in any way, shape or form. Just focus on getting feedback on the work you are doing on yourself. Remember there is only so much emotional energy to go around. Think how the flight attendants tell a parent to put the oxygen mask on themselves first. Same reason you should be conserving your resources. Like I said only a suggestion but you might find it helpful. Or not. I certainly don't speak for other posters but I think there is some things I can offer that will help you move forward. But there is not much I can offer you now regarding your wife. Sorry she's just too wrapped up in her own world.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I REALLY like that idea.


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## cinnabomb

EVG39 said:


> CB, here might be a useful exercise for you going forward to help you concentrate on your growth and get the focus off your wife. Every other post forbid yourself from mentioning your wife in any way, shape or form. Just focus on getting feedback on the work you are doing on yourself. Remember there is only so much emotional energy to go around. Think how the flight attendants tell a parent to put the oxygen mask on themselves first. Same reason you should be conserving your resources. Like I said only a suggestion but you might find it helpful. Or not. I certainly don't speak for other posters but I think there is some things I can offer that will help you move forward. But there is not much I can offer you now regarding your wife. Sorry she's just too wrapped up in her own world.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


in theory I like this idea, but I dont know how to do it. Honestly. I feel like this is the eye of the storm, and honestly I feel like I am about to lose it t times. I already have almost given MC an ultimatum, because Im sick of all this BS "mitigation technique" that she does, which seems to just be prolonging the suffering. I told MC that I believe wife need serious help and may have BPD and I'm sick of all this back and forth and getting nowhere. She is being cold, emotionally barren, and manipulative (especially in session), and nothing is working with her. I am sick of sitting at home and she sits there on her laptop literally not saying a word to me for hours on end like some sociopath. She has been doing that for more than 7 years now. I'm finally man enough to say im SICK of it and not going to put up with it anymore. 

I mean...I'm having a severe marriage issue. How do I NOT talk about it?


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## AliceA

I'm not sure what you expect from your marriage counsellor, but I don't think you're going to get it. You want someone to tell your wife to change and for her to listen and do it. The problem with that is that your MC probably sees how incredibly pointless and futile that is. The MC is there to try and assist you in talking to each other, but talking is getting you nowhere.

Your marriage is what it is. Stop expecting other people to come in and save you from it. No one is going to save you. You have to stop treading water and start making some decisions.


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> in theory I like this idea, but I dont know how to do it. Honestly. I feel like this is the eye of the storm, and honestly I feel like I am about to lose it t times. I already have almost given MC an ultimatum, because Im sick of all this BS "mitigation technique" that she does, which seems to just be prolonging the suffering. I told MC that I believe wife need serious help and may have BPD and I'm sick of all this back and forth and getting nowhere. She is being cold, emotionally barren, and manipulative (especially in session), and nothing is working with her. I am sick of sitting at home and she sits there on her laptop literally not saying a word to me for hours on end like some sociopath. She has been doing that for more than 7 years now. I'm finally man enough to say im SICK of it and not going to put up with it anymore.
> 
> I mean...I'm having a severe marriage issue. How do I NOT talk about it?


Then it sounds like its time for IC and not MC. I had to do that because MC was not picking up on manipulation. So, I told my H he needed to get professional help with his anger issues because I had reached my limit. It took him four months to committ to doing so. I gave him an ultimatum because me and our son were no longer safe at home. Once he committed, he wanted to keep our MC as his IC even though she was my IC before she was our MC, so I got a new one and let him have her. He abandoned her too when he got better results in IC for himself from our church. We did IC for six months or so before attempting MC again.


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## turnera

Why can't you just move out? See what happens?


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## cinnabomb

Moving out is not an option, this is my house, I bought it, and I love where I live. But something really interesting happened in MC:

I put a lot out there with MC and she actually said something similar, that she believes we might be doing MC too early, and that we both need to focus on our IC first. She is going to talk to wife about it as well. MC is very good, and very understanding. She cares enough to try and make it work with us, and I trust her. I think wife manipulates her with the crying and stuff, but I told MC that as well. 

I put a lot of stuff out there, how I honestly dont think my wife truly loves me in the way "love' is defined. An example I gave is that wife says "I love you" to me all the time, but her actions show NOTHING about love, and then she also says "I love you' to literally every single client and business person she works with. I hear it on the phone every day. She doesn't get it...what being a wife means, what being married means. She just wants the marriage to be 100% easy and accepting of ANYTHING she does. 

Someone else brought up an interesting point...her thing is being neglectful, selfish, inconsiderate, and putting no effort into our marriage. Well what if MY thing was going to strip clubs every day or some other hurtful thing like that? And when wife said "I dont like that", I simply mirrored her and said "marriage is about acceptance, dont criticize me, accept me for who I am." It's a really interesting point because she does hurtful things but wants acceptance for them, and I never do things like that (really egregious things), so she doesnt really have a frame of reference for what that would feel like. Perhaps I SHOULD start leaving huge messes and other things for her to deal with, and NOT be so reliable all the time, so she knows what it feels like. Maybe I SHOULD piddle on the floor too! Anyways, just spitballing here, obviously I'm not a strip club or piddle-on-the-floor guy. 

Anyways I am going to IC today, focusing on reading all these books, working out, and focusing on my career change. Here is the one thing I still need some help with:

The question I had before that didnt really get answered....if I FEEL like being affectionate or talking to my wife, do I, or is the 180 mean you just ignore her completely? Im a bit confused. The ignoring feels awkward and a bit unhealthy and doesnt have any impact on her anyways....she just mimicks me. She can easily emotionally block herself off from the world because of her childhood issues. People have no idea how cold she be. Im not as good at that, I like to interact with the world. Last night I sort of broke the silence a bit and chatted about something for a minute before bed, and suddenly shes in a way better mood today. I'm not saying anything is "fixed", and I am no longer naive enough to think that anything is "improved" on a core level, but I am saying that the atmosphere is healthier and more tolerable for me to focus on my other stuff, you know? Thoughts?


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## ButtPunch

Don't use the 180 if you are trying to stay married.

You should be running the "MAP"


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## Blossom Leigh

Abandon the 180.


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## kristin2349

ButtPunch said:


> Don't use the 180 if you are trying to stay married.
> 
> You should be running the "MAP"



I agree I'm not sure where you got the idea to use the 180. I usually see it recommended in cases of infidelity.


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## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Don't use the 180 if you are trying to stay married.
> 
> You should be running the "MAP"


Not sure what the MAP is, but definitely agree the 180 sounds like the shortcut to divorce.


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## jld

Btw, didn't you say she actually seemed to *like* it when you did the 180? Did you mention that to the therapist?


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## EVG39

CB, you and your wife are locked into what is known as a "pursuer distancer dance. The best remedy at hand for that is a thread MEM created located as a sticky in the men's clubhouse called "lowering the thermostat". It's quite good and just what you need. The Author maybe even might wander by and give you his insight. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cinnabomb

thanks guys, yea the 180 was recommended to me by almost everyone on the NMMNG forum. But It created an unhealthy environment for ME to focus on ME. So as of yesterday I stopped it. Im still not being needy, clingy, whiney, etc, but I AM engaging with wife a bit here and there and it is creating a more positive environment for me at least, to be able to focus on my efforts. 

For example, last night in bed we were ignoring each other, literally not a single word exchanged for about 2 hours. very awkward. Finally I got fed up and said, wanna watch a show with me? she perked up said ok, and then I said, wanna come closer together? perked up again ad she came close and we sort of held each other and watched a show. early morning she put her arm around me, something NEVER done around here. 

Im not naive anymore. I dont believe that these little things are fixing anything anymore. Not our core problems anyways. But its gives me a better chance of working on myself by creating a less hostile environment. Today, same thing. I wasnt needy. But I also didnt ignore her. I reached out and initiated a hug on my way out. she perked up again, surprised. hung out with my friend, went to dinner with him. 

anyways, lets see what happens. its all a learning process.


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## Blossom Leigh

Perfect


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## TheTruthHurts

Soooooo I haven't read the 180 I detail - heard about it and get it. It's about doing the opposite from what a needy, clingy, dependent person would do.

It doesn't mean ignore.

I get that it takes a while to get your bearings. You had to interpret it the way you did because you were so non-180. And your W noticed. And your "ignore" implementation worked to shake up the marriage.

BUT .... at this point, don't give up the 180. Instead implement it as you did today. Be an independent, healthy, fun,not clingy, not needy person. BUT you can also show affection if it's recropricated. That's ok. Don't be clingy. Don't be needy. And if she doesn't recrooricate, withdraw your arm (and affection) and don't be angry, nerdy or cling.

If you were these things (not needy, etc) then you're actually still doing the 180


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## bandit.45

Another good man gets pvssywhipped into submission by the Grrrrls.....

You can't even stand up to two or three posts by the women on here without caving. 

Brother you need to stay on the 180 and seek intensive psychological counseling! 

And as for not divorcing, you are telling me you are hanging on to this because of your house? Your house? I thought your wife was this successful mogul.... Kick her out and let her buy her own house if that's the only reason. 

I can find nothing remotely attractive about this woman you describe. She's mean, getting fat, a slob, and she pisses on the floor.....


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## jld

Just be yourself, cinna. You don't need micro instruction. You need to trust yourself more.

Can you benefit from some advice? Sure. But you don't have to remake your personality. It is unlikely to work anyway. 

It sounds like she responds to leadership from you. It does not have to be grand leadership. But reaching out to her in caring ways but without neediness worked. Expecting her to lead you doesn't.


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## EVG39

Just being himself is what got him into this predicament. His Nice Guy persona coupled with his overly romanticized view of women and relationships has resulted in this hotel hell he is imprisoned in. If he doesn't change who he is he is destined to live in this place of pain forever. Telling him to just be himself and be satisfied with the breadcrumbs of affections his hussy of a wife throws his way upon her imperial whim is short changing him as a human being. It's frankly verging on cruelty. He deserves better than that,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

EVG39 said:


> Just being himself is what got him into this predicament. His Nice Guy persona coupled with his overly romanticized view of women and relationships has resulted in this hotel hell he is imprisoned in. If he doesn't change who he is he is destined to live in this place of pain forever. Telling him to just be himself and be satisfied with the breadcrumbs of affections his hussy of a wife throws his way upon her imperial whim is short changing him as a human being. It's frankly verging on cruelty. He deserves better than that,
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He absolutely deserves better. In this case I dont think the 180 is that productive with her. Honestly I would have already rocked her world with hard consequences for being so disrespectful. But it wouldnt be 180 form. >


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## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> He absolutely deserves better. In this case I dont think the 180 is that productive with her. Honestly I would have already rocked her world with hard consequences for being so disrespectful. But it wouldnt be 180 form. >


I just don't understand what his end game is here. 

There is not a court on this planet that will keep him from having shared, joint custody of their child. 

Apart from the child she bore, what positive things has she brought to his life in the past five years? 

I'm a construction manager. When running a project I have to look for those things that are either moving my projects along or bogging them down. If some aspect of the work is not an asset to the job then it is a liability, and I have to make a choice of allowing it to continue or nixing it before I lose more money. 

OP needs to really step back and ask himself if his wife is an asset or a liability to his life. From the picture he has painted of her...I'm not seeing much on the positive side. So then he needs to ask himself if continued investment in this person is going to have a future payoff. I know that sounds calculated and cruel, but at some point, in all our lives, we have to look at the business side of our existence and make tough decisions based on facts. 


Fact: She all but ignores him

Fact: She dismisses his needs. 

Fact: She values her needs over his. 

Fact: She withholds sex and intimacy. 

Fact: She invests more in her career than her marriage. 

Fact: She mocks him and belittles him.

Fact: She manipulates her marriage counselor and will not take MC seriously. 

Fact: She gets defensive and shuts down when her shortcomings are displayed to her. 

Fact: She has poor aim when she pisses and won't clean up....

And on, and on, and on.....


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## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> I just don't understand what his end game is here.
> 
> There is not a court on this planet that will keep him from having shared, joint custody of their child.
> 
> Apart from the child she bore, what positive things has she brought to his life in the past five years?
> 
> I'm a construction manager. When running a project I have to look for those things that are either moving my projects along or bogging them down. If some aspect of the work is not an asset to the job then it is a liability, and I have to make a choice of allowing it to continue or nixing it before I lose more money.
> 
> OP needs to really step back and ask himself if his wife is an asset or a liability to his life. From the picture he has painted of her...I'm not seeing much on the positive side. So then he needs to ask himself if continued investment in this person is going to have a future payoff. I know that sounds calculated and cruel, but at some point, in all our lives, we have to look at the business side of our existence and make tough decisions based on facts.
> 
> 
> Fact: She all but ignores him
> 
> Fact: She dismisses his needs.
> 
> Fact: She values her needs over his.
> 
> Fact: She withholds sex and intimacy.
> 
> Fact: She invests more in her career than her marriage.
> 
> Fact: She mocks him and belittles him.
> 
> Fact: She manipulates her marriage counselor and will not take MC seriously.
> 
> Fact: She gets defensive and shuts down when her shortcomings are displayed to her.
> 
> Fact: She has poor aim when she pisses and won't clean up....
> 
> And on, and on, and on.....


100% agree


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## farsidejunky

I agree with all of that, Bandit.

I would also bet that her list would have an incredibly similar theme. 

They are not good for each other any more. Or as BL put it, they have grown and changed to incompatible people.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

EVG39 said:


> Just being himself is what got him into this predicament. His Nice Guy persona coupled with his overly romanticized view of women and relationships has resulted in this hotel hell he is imprisoned in. If he doesn't change who he is he is destined to live in this place of pain forever. Telling him to just be himself and be satisfied with the breadcrumbs of affections his hussy of a wife throws his way upon her imperial whim is short changing him as a human being. It's frankly verging on cruelty. He deserves better than that,
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought his last post sounded good. He seemed genuine. I am not surprised at all that she responded warmly. She has been craving authentic leadership from him and got it. Why would she not respond to it?


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I agree with all of that, Bandit.
> 
> I would also bet that her list would have an incredibly similar theme.
> 
> They are not good for each other any more. Or as BL put it, they have grown and changed to incompatible people.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Far. They had a great night last night in comparison to how it has been for a long time. And she reached out to him this morning. If he can continue to relax and be calm, but genuine, things should get better.


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## jld

Huh. I am finally hopeful, and you guys are not.


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## farsidejunky

The problem is whether or not he is capable.

The relationship will never be what it once was. It is dead and gone, and he is so mad at her that it died that he won't perform CPR.

I don't know if CB has the wherewithal to get out of his own way. He shows promise for a day, followed by two weeks of blaming his wife for the marriage, while being defensive over those who point out to him the many ways he is being an @$$.

So can it be salvaged? I give it slim odds, mostly based on CB. Until he stops needing her validation, there really is no hope. If CB pulls his head out of his @$$, then I give it 50/50 because I still don't have a real good read on just who Mrs. CB is.

CB, up until about a October of last year I was you. I still needed that validation from my wife. 

Think for a moment about the amount of pressure to perform she has in her job. Then she comes home to someone who pressures her to perform for him. That is why she avoids you. If she engages, you are so desperate for her validation that you seize that as an opportunity to meet your needs and expectations. So she hides in movies, social media and your child.

Give her the space to miss you. Not a 180, but a lowering of the thermostat. What does a cat do when yo uh chase it? Conversely, what does a cat do when you occasionally scratch it's head, then give it space? It ends up spending the evening in your lap.

I can't tell you how similar you are to who I used to be, CB. Maybe, just maybe, you will listen.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

Cat....


You know I had a cat once that pissed on the floor whenever it got mad at me....


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## Blossom Leigh

EVG39 said:


> They are incompatible no doubt and there is probably no way that they have a long term future. But if he doesn't fix his issues now he is going to hook up with the same kind of woman in the future. I guarantee it. And if she is half the hard nose he paints her out to be she'll clobber him in a divorce. She'll look at it dispassionately like the winding up of a business relationship and he'll be emoting all over the place. No as bad as this is, and it's bad, he needs to use his limited resources to change and fix himself first. Then he can divorce from a place of strength and hopefully go on to attract a quality woman as he would be a quality man. But leaving now without changing he would I'm afraid just be leaping from the frying pan into the fire.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is much truth to this. This was one of the facets of why I chose to stay in my relationship. To really get the skills down to stand straight in any relationship AS LONG AS I was putting that effort into a partner who not only possessed the capacity to change but also the willingness. I would not advise cinna to invest that kind of heavy effort into anyone lacking capacity or willingness. AND I would give them ONE shot to demonstrate both and be willing to turn it lose the moment I see that I'm wasting my time.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Blossom Leigh said:


> He absolutely deserves better. In this case I dont think the 180 is that productive with her. Honestly I would have already rocked her world with hard consequences for being so disrespectful. But it wouldnt be 180 form. >


The 180 was for him. To help him detach, and focus on himself.

The 180 was never intended to be a method to manipulate his partner's feelings and actions.


----------



## jld

He was smart enough to drop the 180. I cannot believe the way that advice is given out, right in the middle of a marriage.

I think he needs to remember last night. He was a leader last night. He was genuine. He went with his gut and not a thousand voices from TAM. And it went well.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Well, if he hangs in there long enough to get to the 10 year mark he'll get permanent alimony.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ThreeStrikes said:


> The 180 was for him. To help him detach, and focus on himself.
> 
> The 180 was never intended to be a method to manipulate his partner's feelings and actions.


Yea, I know.

I would have already moved past that into hard core decisions.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Well, if he hangs in there long enough to get to the 10 year mark he'll get permanent alimony.


MEM suggested earlier in the thread that that may be part of his thinking.

Cinna, any truth to that?

I think you just love her, myself. I did not get the vibe that it was about the money for you.


----------



## bandit.45

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I know.
> 
> I would have already moved past that into hard core decisions.


....Or maintained it while making those decisions.....


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> MEM suggested earlier in the thread that that may be part of his thinking.
> 
> Cinna, any truth to that?
> 
> I think you just love her, myself. I did not get the vibe that it was about the money for you.


Well, if he isn't going to get her love, he might as well stick around for the money.....


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Well, if he isn't going to get her love, he might as well stick around for the money.....


Says you.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Huh. I am finally hopeful, and you guys are not.


Is he capable, and does he have the endurance to keep up with this, not knowing whether or not her reactions are sincere.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Says you.


Hey, women do it all the time without a second thought....

Why can't a man do the same?


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Is he capable, and does he have the endurance to keep up with this, not knowing whether or not her reactions are sincere.


They're sincere. She has just been waiting for some authenticity and leadership from him. And last night she got it.

I think he finally got outside voices out of his head and just followed his instinct. I think he should keep doing that.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> Hey, women do it all the time without a second thought....
> 
> Why can't a man do the same?


I think women have survival instincts, honed over millennia. Men have theirs, too, but perhaps different from women's.

I don't think these two are headed for divorce. He just had to relax instead of getting all wound up. And being here contributed to that winding up.

I hope he learns from last night and listens to his own voice.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> I think women have survival instincts, honed over millennia. Men have theirs, too, but perhaps different from women's.
> 
> I don't think these two are headed for divorce. He just had to relax instead of getting all wound up. And being here contributed to that winding up.
> 
> I hope he learns from last night and listens to his own voice.


He needs to heal himself jld. If I wound him up then good. Nothing good will come of this situation unless he detaches from her a bit, gets the help he needs for his codependency and other issues, and heals himself. He's worthless as a husband to any woman at this point. He is very unhealthy mentally.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> He needs to heal himself jld. If I wound him up then good. Nothing good will come of this situation unless he detaches from her a bit, gets the help he needs for his codependency and other issues, and heals himself. He's worthless as a husband to any woman at this point. He is very unhealthy mentally.


Last night gives me hope for him, and them, bandit.


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> Last night gives me hope for him, and them, bandit.


It's okay to hope. But do not trust to hope. 

It has forsaken these lands.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> It's okay to hope. But do not trust to hope.
> 
> It has forsaken these lands.


It was reborn for me on this thread since this morning.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Cinna, its a balance between finding your own contentment, happiness, soul center and choosing to engage her from that space. That takes personal detachment to discover. You can exist with her, engage her, but from that personal center. You have to be able to connect and disconnect keeping your contentment in tact without depending on her to give it to you. 

And when your center is in tact, you will recognize when she is abusive to it and let her know, thats not how you choose to live. 

My H needed to choose different. He coped with our issues in VERY toxic ways. I was myself and when I was centered enough and took no responsibility for his toxic choices, I made a stand against it, all the way to being ready to walk. 

Today, he no longer chooses toxic responses to me. 

I was kind to the good stuff in a very natural way.

When he was toxic, I developed zero tolerance, communicated that precisely and didn't waste my time spiraling on it. I developed trust in my own opinion of what I was seeing. I studied a lot and implemented what I learned.

It worked with my capable and willing husband.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> He was smart enough to drop the 180. I cannot believe the way that advice is given out, right in the middle of a marriage.
> 
> I think he needs to remember last night. He was a leader last night. He was genuine. He went with his gut and not a thousand voices from TAM. And it went well.


I can't believe I'm saying this but if saving the marriage is his goal I totally agree with you jld. The others are right, he's been mistreated for a long time. But he doesn't have a time machine. He's not going to get any do-overs. If he wants this marriage to continue he's going to have to assume the leadership mantle. He's also going to have to bite his tongue and have a thick skin because I'm sure there are going to be more "incidents" he'll have to deal with. This truly might be a case of choosing to be right or choosing to be happy.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> They're sincere. She has just been waiting for some authenticity and leadership from him. And last night she got it.
> 
> I think he finally got outside voices out of his head and just followed his instinct. I think he should keep doing that.


It's also possible that by following the 180 for a while he might have taken the pressure off and allowed them both to take a breath and reset.


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> It's also possible that by following the 180 for a while he might have taken the pressure off and allowed them both to take a breath and reset.


He has been doing it for a while, no? And he said his wife was doing it right back to him.

I think they were both tired of it.


----------



## bandit.45

bfree said:


> I can't believe I'm saying this but if saving the marriage is his goal I totally agree with you jld. The others are right, he's been mistreated for a long time. But he doesn't have a time machine. He's not going to get any do-overs. If he wants this marriage to continue he's going to have to assume the leadership mantle. He's also going to have to bite his tongue and have a thick skin because I'm sure there are going to be more "incidents" he'll have to deal with. This truly might be a case of choosing to be right or choosing to be happy.


I'll say it. I agree with jld more often than she thinks I do.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> I'll say it. I agree with jld more often than she thinks I do.


You hide it very well.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> He has been doing it for a while, no? And he said his wife was doing it right back to him.
> 
> I think they were both tired of it.


I think I read that she said in MC that she felt trapped at times and unable to decompress. Maybe the 180 changed that dynamic?


----------



## bandit.45

jld said:


> You hide it very well.


You think I'd let you know? 

I have my pride....:grin2:


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> I think I read that she said in MC that she felt trapped at times and unable to decompress. Maybe the 180 changed that dynamic?


For sure, a 180 from being needy and whiny and suffocating is okay. I do not really think of that as *the* 180, though.


----------



## jld

bandit.45 said:


> You think I'd let you know?
> 
> I have my pride....:grin2:




_Don't we all . . ._


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bandit.45 said:


> Cat....
> 
> 
> You know I had a cat once that pissed on the floor whenever it got mad at me....


LOL! I didn't see this earlier... Definitely gave me a chuckle.


----------



## cinnabomb

OK, WOW - 4 pages of comments since my last post. I read everything before responding so that I can try to put all my thoughts and responses into a single post. 

Well let me answer the one Q off the bat. I could give a F about money. I dont know a thing about what 10 years means and am not even sure what alimony is. I could give a flying F. I choose love and happiness over money any day, and for those of you who either dont believe me or dont get it, well then you dont get it. I have a lot of money. 99% of it in savings, because I hate materialism. And I would give all that up for a chance at a happy marriage again. I would gladly eat canned tuna and splurge on 2 buck chuck forever if I had to do that again. I actually enjoy being thrifty and dont care for decadence. Hope that clears that up. 

So let's talk about the "180". I still am not 100% sure what it is, but I THINK it means, stop doing everything for her, stop being clingy, needy, whiney, and outwardly critical/negative. However, what I did NOT understand was this doesnt mean to just flat out ignore the other person and give them the cold shoulder, which I WAS doing. I tried that, and it didnt resonate, and created a really negative vibe. This relationship needs a little oxygen to survive and ignoring each other is suffocating. So I want to clarify that I am not stopping the 180, I am simply tweaking my understanding of it, and still focusing on me, being independent, being kind to her, but not overly so, and only when I feel like it. I am no longer following her around like a lap dog or making her the center of everything I do. 

Look, I'm not going to lie and say I dont want or need things from her. I do. But for the time being, I think that I need to be very careful about imposing a ton of needs on her, otherwise we dont really stand a chance of even SEEING if this marriage still has some life in it. That's where I am at. Im not running for the hills yet, but I am cautiously proceeding as if we are working on things (mostly each of us working on ourselves). We will see what happens. 

I am also not going to be naive anymore, and think that "because she hugged me once, everything is all better." It's not. The core issues are still really F-ed up and need to be fixed for us to have a chance. I know that now. I'm not settling for table scraps anymore, as my sole sustenance in this relationship. For now, step by step. I'm not going to pretend like, at this juncture, she is suddenly going to want to have sex with me. She doesn't. She needs to see a strong man again. I need to be that again, for me and my life, not just for her. And yes you guys are right, that I need to be that for the future as well, if this doesnt work out. I refuse to repeat history. 

Yesterday I had an IC session. I had not had one in awhile because of hiatus after my siblings passing. He said that he was surprised at my major change in my thinking and understanding of everything, and that I had come a long way. He said he doesnt think I was ready for the personal growth when I first started with him, but he thinks I am at a place now where I am not mourning or in denial, but more "to terms" with the reality of the situation, and I can start the real work now. I feel hopeful. Without all of the self-reflection I have gone through, I don't think I would ever have gotten to the point where I am today, which is a man slowly gaining his self-respect back, and able to say "I am no longer trying to change her. Only myself. And I deserve to be happy and want that for myself." This is progress.

My wife is a bit of a "mimick". She really conforms and copies whatever her surroundings are. So this is one of the reasons why ignoring her doesn't really work well for us, and also one of the reasons why, if I am positive and upbeat, she is as well. I get what some of you are saying. I dont for a second forget the hurt and pain and what she has done to me. It's all there. But my IC also said, look you need to live in today and cant keep dwelling on it. It hurts, it really does, and I have not forgiven, but I also think that, to give this a fair shot, I can't carry so much of that baggage around daily. Wife senses it and it pushes her away. 

Whether or not we make it, only time will tell. Im aware of that now. I deserve happiness. It feels good to say that out loud. I hope we make it, but only if its true and authentic and what I need, not what I am willing to settle for. In the meantime, I will keep posting my progress and daily events and lets see where it goes. This morning she brought baby in the bed like always but actually gave a group hug. I can tell there is still this sort of hesitance, cuz when she got up to leave, she sort of opened her arms to hug but didnt actually do it. Like "Im opening them for a hug, is that something you want?" I gave her one. Still being careful. Her anger is really the biggest thing that brings this whole thing tumbling down. And it will come....we will just have to see what happens. 

OK, its saturday, a bit hungover from dinner with my buddy last night, but its sunny and warm and gotta meet her and baby for brunch. talk soon.


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## Blossom Leigh

Awesome update cinna...


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## jld

She is reaching out to you. She needs your love and leadership. And you are starting to sound like a man. Good work.


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## kristin2349

Cinnabomb:

The "180" comes from the Michelle Weiner-Davis book "Divorce Busting" here is a link: The 180 | AFFAIRCARE


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## bandit.45

You inadvertently stumbled onto what we here call a "180 Lite".

Keep concentrating on self improvement. Rediscover your inner caveman. Start doing things for yourself and looking for your own joy in life. 

You sound like you are on the right track. Keep it up.


----------



## cinnabomb

kristin2349 said:


> Cinnabomb:
> 
> The "180" comes from the Michelle Weiner-Davis book "Divorce Busting" here is a link: The 180 | AFFAIRCARE


thanks, wish I saw this list earlier!


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> She is reaching out to you. She needs your love and leadership. And you are starting to sound like a man. Good work.


So, she wants to be the strong, empowered woman at work and the demure wife at home. 

I could see this based on the mimicking comment.

CB, what happens when you get irritated at something and outwardly show anger around her?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> thanks, wish I saw this list earlier!


You might want to read the book.


----------



## AliceA

farsidejunky said:


> So, she wants to be the strong, empowered woman at work and the demure wife at home.
> 
> I could see this based on the mimicking comment.
> 
> CB, what happens when you get irritated at something and outwardly show anger around her?


It's not mimicking, it's responding.

When your spouse is exuding the "don't talk to me, don't come near me, don't even try" vibe, then a person who is capable of picking up on that will be keeping their distance. When he's feeling more approachable, more open to interaction with her, she picks up on that and is more open as well.

What I get out of this is that she is walking on eggshells at home, very sensitive to all his moods. He has been the same way. Any negative feelings on either side and they are feeding off each other, making the mood in the household more likely to be negative than positive.

If he were to become angry, it would be extremely likely she would respond with anger. Same when it's the other way around.

I don't think it's a healthy mindset to think your spouse is mimicking you. Is is healthy to recognise when they are responding to your signals/moods? YES. Is it healthy to recognise when you are responding to theirs? YES. Is it healthy to think of them as a mirror? NO.


----------



## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> So, she wants to be the strong, empowered woman at work and the demure wife at home.
> 
> I could see this based on the mimicking comment.
> 
> CB, what happens when you get irritated at something and outwardly show anger around her?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


to answer you, you need to understand that I rarely EVER "outwardly show anger". I default more to hurt than to anger to be honest. I'm not really an angry person in general. I never raise my voice, I have never "punched a wall", etc. I prefer to just process the emotions mentally than let them burst out. I DO however, get frustrated, hurt, annoyed when she does something really inconsiderate, rude, etc. I tend to shut down and close the world out and she senses it and immediately "mimics" it. 

Someone here said she isnt mimicking, she is responding. I disagree in some ways. She is like a sponge and always copies whoever she is around. For example, she believes in giving our baby good quality organic food, but the second she is around a mom who says "I dont really believe the whole organic thing", she copies them and says "yea me too, whatever!" It's an insecurity thing obviously. She wants so bad to be accepted by everyone that she doesnt really stand up for her beliefs.


----------



## farsidejunky

How accepted does she feel by her husband? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bfree

CB, know that women are excellent at picking up non verbal communication. There was a study I saw one that said a man typically sees less than 5% of the facial cues and body movements that women pick up on. You may not outwardly show anger, disgust, disappointment, etc. but your wife is probably subconsciously registering these non verbal signals coming from you. I agree with far, you are more than likely dictating the overall atmosphere in the home whether you realize it or not.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> CB, know that women are excellent at picking up non verbal communication. There was a study I saw one that said a man typically sees less than 5% of the facial cues and body movements that women pick up on. You may not outwardly show anger, disgust, disappointment, etc. but your wife is probably subconsciously registering these non verbal signals coming from you. I agree with far, you are more than likely dictating the overall atmosphere in the home whether you realize it or not.


Definitely something to guard against CB. My H was the master at filling the room with a pyst myst.

Not any more.

Makes a huge difference.


----------



## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> How accepted does she feel by her husband?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


well I've been over this a lot. It's been really hard to be "accepting" of severely neglectful and abusive behavior. Me accepting that behavior as my reality and a "normal" way of life for many years only made the problem worse. So it's not as simple as me just saying, "you know what? I accept you! we're having fun!". It's certainly a daily struggle, and I am trying not to fill my head with thoughts of hurt, resent, etc everyday anymore. Doesn't mean those thoughts aren't still there though. It's a struggle. The more she shows some effort on her side, the easier it is for me to also give her more of a chance and put my shields down. 

Last night she was really awkward. We drove to dinner and she sat in her seat next to me, arms crossed, and not a single word the entire time. Who knows. Could be something unrelated, like work, etc. She has a tendency to shut down like that a lot and it can be difficult to interact with. I suppose I could have inquired, but in that moment, I felt annoyed because I have been making an effort to reach out more, and didn't feel like initiating yet again, so I didn't. Advice on that?


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Definitely something to guard against CB. My H was the master at filling the room with a pyst myst.
> 
> Not any more.
> 
> Makes a huge difference.


Yup I don't deny this. My default face often looks like I might even be intensely focused or even upset at something, but it's very rarely the case that I am actually angry. At times, I certainly am feeling annoyed, hurt, whatever, and I could see how that can be a turnoff. I dont have a default "smile face". Sometimes people are intimated by that, but the truth is, I am a really nice and easygoing guy. Facial reconstructive surgery maybe? :laugh:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Yup I don't deny this. My default face often looks like I might even be intensely focused or even upset at something, but it's very rarely the case that I am actually angry. At times, I certainly am feeling annoyed, hurt, whatever, and I could see how that can be a turnoff. I dont have a default "smile face". Sometimes people are intimated by that, but the truth is, I am a really nice and easygoing guy. Facial reconstructive surgery maybe? :laugh:


Its a balance between rooting out poor perspectives and giving voice to the remaining legitimate things. So that those negative emotions get released in one form or another.


----------



## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> well I've been over this a lot. It's been really hard to be "accepting" of severely neglectful and abusive behavior. Me accepting that behavior as my reality and a "normal" way of life for many years only made the problem worse. So it's not as simple as me just saying, "you know what? I accept you! we're having fun!". It's certainly a daily struggle, and I am trying not to fill my head with thoughts of hurt, resent, etc everyday anymore. Doesn't mean those thoughts aren't still there though. It's a struggle. The more she shows some effort on her side, the easier it is for me to also give her more of a chance and put my shields down.
> 
> Last night she was really awkward. We drove to dinner and she sat in her seat next to me, arms crossed, and not a single word the entire time. Who knows. Could be something unrelated, like work, etc. She has a tendency to shut down like that a lot and it can be difficult to interact with. I suppose I could have inquired, but in that moment, I felt annoyed because I have been making an effort to reach out more, and didn't feel like initiating yet again, so I didn't. Advice on that?


Answer the question without sitting in the victim chair.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> Answer the question without sitting in the victim chair.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


huh?


----------



## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> It's been really hard to be "accepting" of severely neglectful and abusive behavior. Me accepting that behavior as my reality and a "normal" way of life for many years only made the problem worse. So it's not as simple as me just saying, "you know what? I accept you! we're having fun!". It's certainly a daily struggle, and I am trying not to fill my head with thoughts of hurt, resent, etc everyday anymore.


This is pure victim speak.

A simple "no" would have been okay. But then you would have missed an opportunity to sit in the victim chair, which is entirely too comfortable for you.

CB, maybe one day you will get it. But I simply don't have the patience to walk you through these things when you are so fiercely resistant to actually hear them. I am bowing out. 

I hope for your family's sake you get it soon.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> This is pure victim speak.
> 
> A simple "no" would have been okay. But then you would have missed an opportunity to sit in the victim chair, which is entirely too comfortable for you.
> 
> CB, maybe one day you will get it. But I simply don't have the patience to walk you through these things when you are so fiercely resistant to actually hear them. I am bowing out.
> 
> I hope for your family's sake you get it soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


uhm. ok. bye then. you asked me a question and I am trying to answer it in honest detail. I dont care. bye.


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## jld

I did not understand your question, either, @farsidejunky.


----------



## AliceA

“A victim evokes sympathy, right? Victims are not responsible, right? Victims have the moral high ground… someone else is causing the misery, right? Victims can easily justify why they are right. Victims allow themselves to be stuck in the status quo and they excel at seeing the faults in others, ignoring their own responsibility. They love to take others’ inventory of faults and are excellent at blaming. Victims become hypersensitive to real and perceived injustice, where any slight becomes a reason to reject. Victimization is the toxic wind blowing through families, fanning the fires of dysfunction.” 
― David W. Earle


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> well I've been over this a lot. It's been really hard to be "accepting" of severely neglectful and abusive behavior. Me accepting that behavior as my reality and a "normal" way of life for many years only made the problem worse. So it's not as simple as me just saying, "you know what? I accept you! we're having fun!". It's certainly a daily struggle, and I am trying not to fill my head with thoughts of hurt, resent, etc everyday anymore. Doesn't mean those thoughts aren't still there though. It's a struggle. The more she shows some effort on her side, the easier it is for me to also give her more of a chance and put my shields down.
> 
> Last night she was really awkward. We drove to dinner and she sat in her seat next to me, arms crossed, and not a single word the entire time. Who knows. Could be something unrelated, like work, etc. She has a tendency to shut down like that a lot and it can be difficult to interact with. I suppose I could have inquired, but in that moment, I felt annoyed because I have been making an effort to reach out more, and didn't feel like initiating yet again, so I didn't. Advice on that?


You don't seem to have boundaries/consequences in your vocabulary. Which is odd, because it's the first line of defense when it comes to angry and/or abusive people. 

A good one to start with is "I will not accept being yelled at." That's your boundary. "I will leave your vicinity if you yell at me" is your consequence that YOU enact to protect YOU if she yells anyway. "I'll be back later, and we can see if we can continue this subject without raised voices at that time." 

Doesn't require anything from her. It's just what YOU do. If you stick to that boundary + consequence steadfastly, each and every time she tries to raise her voice, she will eventually 'get it.' She'll get that she doesn't get to yell at you anymore because you will respect yourself too much to allow it, and that will happen by you leaving the room.

Another great boundary is that you won't waste your money on an evening out with a person - ANY person - who sits there and pouts and says not a single word and crosses their arms. Why would you? "I really did not enjoy that dinner last night. It was a total waste of time. So if we end up going out again and it turns out that you're feeling the need to stonewall, I'm just going to excuse myself and call a cab and head home." Of course, you have to have the balls to actually CALL the cab and actually LEAVE. But you can't ask for a better way to politely get your point across and stop taking abuse.

And fwiw, doing either of the two above things would get you OUT of that victim chair and put you firmly in charge of your own happiness.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> well I've been over this a lot. It's been really hard to be "accepting" of severely neglectful and abusive behavior. Me accepting that behavior as my reality and a "normal" way of life for many years only made the problem worse. So it's not as simple as me just saying, "you know what? I accept you! we're having fun!". It's certainly a daily struggle, and I am trying not to fill my head with thoughts of hurt, resent, etc everyday anymore. Doesn't mean those thoughts aren't still there though. It's a struggle. The more she shows some effort on her side, the easier it is for me to also give her more of a chance and put my shields down.
> 
> Last night she was really awkward. We drove to dinner and she sat in her seat next to me, arms crossed, and not a single word the entire time. Who knows. Could be something unrelated, like work, etc. She has a tendency to shut down like that a lot and it can be difficult to interact with. I suppose I could have inquired, but in that moment, I felt annoyed because I have been making an effort to reach out more, and didn't feel like initiating yet again, so I didn't. Advice on that?




I like T's suggestions a lot. I think I would have driven her right back to the house, put her out on the curb and told her that you no longer tolerate "b!tchy attitudes" and that you can paint the town without her and driven off. I believe she was trying to "hook" you into an argument with the pyst myst. I have zero tolerance for manipulation like that. I shut it down immediately. She can either learn to speak up in dignified adult speech or go be a bratty little girl with someone else.


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> uhm. ok. bye then. you asked me a question and I am trying to answer it in honest detail. I dont care. bye.


farsidejunky is an excellent poster. He takes the time to really think about your issues and to answer you fully and honestly. You don't understand, you tell him, he explains, then you are rude to him. If this is how you respond to your wife, no wonder she's distant. farsidejunky was in no way rude or dismissive of you. He is obviously trying to offer some serious help, but you blow him off.


----------



## turnera

Well, that's what Nice Guys do.


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> Well, that's what Nice Guys do.


:lol: True. And then they wonder why they have relationship issues. Then someone tells them, then they get angry, and it starts all over again. Then they look around and find themselves alone - again.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

CynthiaDe said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's what Nice Guys do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True. And then they wonder why they have relationship issues. Then someone tells them, then they get angry, and it starts all over again. Then they look around and find themselves alone - again.
Click to expand...

I honestly think CB really, really doesn't understand that he sees things as a victim. Yes it is obvious to us... but I don't think he sees it.


----------



## turnera

No, I don't either. And I do think, cb, that you are starting to become aware. It's a progression. Some dash through, some go in fits and starts. But you'll get there. It took me about five years to understand what everyone was telling me. And another five years to implement change.


----------



## cinnabomb

CynthiaDe said:


> farsidejunky is an excellent poster. He takes the time to really think about your issues and to answer you fully and honestly. You don't understand, you tell him, he explains, then you are rude to him. If this is how you respond to your wife, no wonder she's distant. farsidejunky was in no way rude or dismissive of you. He is obviously trying to offer some serious help, but you blow him off.


I didnt blow him off. He asked me a question and I gave an honest answer of what the past has been like and he said "Im done". He blew me off. So I said fine, whatever I dont care. And I dont. those of you who are helping me, are so unbelievably appreciated. And those of you who are just filled with anger that you arent getting immediate and instant gratification by me saying "HEY I DID IT, I FILED FOR DIVORCE TODAY!", well then no one is forcing you to help me. Oh well, that's your choice. 

As far as "victim speak", yes I have said it in the past and I will say it again, in the past, this is all I was doing. That's how I was answering farside's question too. I DID feel like a victim. I really did. Now, I don't want to dwell on that anymore. I want to just move forward, knowing that I could not control everything that happened with my wife. I COULD have improved the situation if I stood up for myself all these years, but I didnt. I was weak. I didnt know any better. I now know better. 

What happened the other night with her being weird and distant....in the past I would have given in and been super nice to her to try and break her out of her shell. But I didnt. I didnt do a damn thing. And for me, that IS progress. I stood strong even though I wanted to say "whats up?" or hold her hand. Im testing my own limits daily to see how strong I am. It was hard, but I stayed strong. In the future, perhaps I WILL be even stronger and can say "if you are going to be distant, then lets skip dinner." I'm working on it. This is NOT instant gratification. It takes time. My IC will vouch for my progress during this difficult time, I'm sure.

Anyways, I've been keeping busy, working, etc. Last night she sort of snuggled me again in bed (not overly, just sort of layed on me). We watched some tv, and then she said im tired, kissed on cheek, and bed. Whatever. at the very least, the environment is healthier and gives me the positivity to focus on my work. Went to happy hour with my friend today after a long day. and tonight I held my baby in my hands and was talking and explaining what love is and baby looked at me and kissed me on the lips and smiled. sigh. nearly broke my heart how sweet baby was tonight. It was just us two tonight. 

I have not said a single word about anything critical. wife is going to decide for herself what she wants, in terms of health, weight, etc. I'm over it. It's such a small piece of the issues to be honest. The core of our issues is far deeper than how unhealthy she is. It goes back to her pattern of neglect and abuse and I wont put up with it anymore. I dont honestly think it will matter. My wife is one of those people who it doesnt matter how composed you are, how methodical and logical your argument is, she will just maniacally yell and lose her mind until she gets her way when it goes down. Typical insane hollywood agent stuff. But this time around I wont bend or break. Ill walk the F out if I have to.

Oh, one thing I forgot to ask. Earlier someone said "it sounds like she is looking for your leadership." Did you mean that she is sort of waiting around for me to set the tone? Thats what it feels like, actually. If I am positive, fun, happy, playful, she often mimics, and if I am distant, hurt, etc, then she mimics that too. Is that what you meant?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

CB, over time, I developed zero tolerance for abuse and manipulation in our home. If my son comes at me trying to manipulate to get his way, I will flat out call him on it saying "don't manipulate me, speak it straight." When he speaks straight, I thank him and make him feel safe and proud.

Thats another way to deal with the silent treatment. "Don't manipulate me. If you've got something upsetting you, use your words, but I will no longer tolerate you using your emotions like weapons."If she needs processing time to form the words be gracious and give her that, but call that stuff what it is, total manipulation. From my experience it shuts it down in one of two ways. They realize what an immature putz move that is and stop OR they flee. Either way, that poor behavior leaves.

That kind of stuff ticks me off if you can't tell  It is royal putzery.

And just so you know... Standing up to this stuff pays off. I've been getting repeated feedback from my husband. He is deeply content. Views me as quality and told me repeatedly why he loves me lately. One of them surprisingly being that I dont run with packs of destructive women and the attitude of respect I maintain with him. He said, you have your own strength but you default to my leadership. It has cultivated a trust in me. We'll be watching a show, see highly destructive women with crappy distespectful attitudes and he will look at me and say, I am so glad you are not like these women. And last night we were watching the Bachelor finale and he stopped in the middle of it and said in a very thoughtful touching way "I *really* have a winner in you." Its the highest level of contentment I've seen in him since we've been together. 

He has really been considering who I am to him and who I am not. At first he railed against my corrective attitude against manipulation and abuse. Today, he thanks me for kicking his a$$. He's a better man today because I didn't back down. And even though I always kept a high level of respect for him, regardless of his behavior, since thats the wife I choose to be because of my relationship with Christ, today my respect for him fits like a glove because he rounded out to fit the respect that was already there.

See I dont agree with the premise that respect has to be earned by my husband. From my perview it was already earned on the cross by Christ, therefore I am free to choose to give respect to honor Christ. My respect for my husband has nothing to do with my H's behavior. It has everything to do with my choice and my relationship to Christ. And because of that relationship I called my H's putzery on the carpet. He was behaving less than the respect he is called by Christ to own. My job was to maintain the respect, period. Its his is to be a respectable man. But one does not preclude the other.

Its why disrespectful, entitled women tick me off sending these men through unending hoop jumping to "earn" love, respect, sex, trinkets, etc from them. Or women who need to grow up and stop using their emotions like weapons. Both get under my skin. I see both as a lack in the womans understanding about Christs call for her to respect her husband.

And bank it on I will be hammered on TAM for that position.


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> Anyways, I've been keeping busy, working, etc. Last night she sort of snuggled me again in bed (not overly, just sort of layed on me). We watched some tv, and then she said im tired, kissed on cheek, and bed. Whatever. at the very least, the environment is healthier and gives me the positivity to focus on my work. Went to happy hour with my friend today after a long day. and tonight I held my baby in my hands and was talking and explaining what love is and baby looked at me and kissed me on the lips and smiled. sigh. nearly broke my heart how sweet baby was tonight. It was just us two tonight.
> 
> I have not said a single word about anything critical. wife is going to decide for herself what she wants, in terms of health, weight, etc. I'm over it. It's such a small piece of the issues to be honest. The core of our issues is far deeper than how unhealthy she is. It goes back to her pattern of neglect and abuse and I wont put up with it anymore. I dont honestly think it will matter. My wife is one of those people who it doesnt matter how composed you are, how methodical and logical your argument is, she will just maniacally yell and lose her mind until she gets her way when it goes down. Typical insane hollywood agent stuff. But this time around I wont bend or break. Ill walk the F out if I have to.
> 
> Oh, one thing I forgot to ask. Earlier someone said "it sounds like she is looking for your leadership." Did you mean that she is sort of waiting around for me to set the tone? Thats what it feels like, actually. If I am positive, fun, happy, playful, she often mimics, and if I am distant, hurt, etc, then she mimics that too. Is that what you meant?


I was the person who said she was looking for your leadership. I think she is. And when you are not reactive, you provide it.

She is clearly a responder, as indicated by what you have said about how she mimics you. 

Are you familiar with the work of John Gottman? He is America's foremost researcher on marriage. He said that women allow men great influence over them, and do so from a young age. This influence is what you are seeing in your wife. In many ways, she takes her cues from you. You are indeed setting the tone.

Gottman says that a wife may approach her husband harshly, with anger towards him. But if a husband responds with empathy, and makes her feel respected and understood, she will soften. He also said that a wife's anger will not hurt a marriage, but a husband's anger will. I think this goes back to what he discovered about how women from an early age allow men to influence them, something that he did not find, or not nearly to the same degree, in reverse.

I am going to post a summary of his research. I think taking a look at it could help you understand your wife better, as well as how to work with her more effectively.


----------



## jld

_12 Amazing Relationship Truths (as discovered by John Gottman, a marriage researcher at U of WA)


1. Fighting doesn't break up marriages. Losing your friendship does. If you focus on feeding your connection in the good times, you will have the "emotional bank account" in place to make it through the difficult times. Do you have positive sentiment override or negative sentiment override? It's not the fight that counts, but the repair attempt and how it is received. The strength of your friendship will determine how successful repair attempt are.

2. Arguments don't hurt your relationship, it's how you argue. Harsh set-up, followed by criticism, contempt, defensiveness, or stonewalling (ignoring, shutting the other person out) can lead to flooding (becoming shell-shocked and overwhelmed and disengaging emotionally).

3. Successful repair attempts are the key. These are more successful if the couple are intimately familiar with each other's lives on a daily basis. They have a richly detailed "love map" of the other person (where you store all the relevant info about your partner's life).

They remember major events in each other's history, keep updating the information as their partners world changes, know each other's goals in life, worries, hopes, and fears. From this knowledge springs not only love, but the fortitude to weather stressful events and conflict.

They are in touch, not just with the outlines of each other's lives but with each other's deepest longings, beliefs and fears and no matter how busy they are, they make each other their priority. (Even over family of origin. He puts her first before his mom and makes it clear to all involved.)

4. Two of the most crucial elements for lasting love are fondness and admiration. You have to remain aware of how crucial fondness and admiration are to the friendship that is at the core of a good marriage. Fondness and admiration are the antidotes to what Gottman calls "The Four Horses of the Apocolypse": contempt, criticism, defensiveness, and stonewalling.

5. Real life romance is fueled by hundreds of small ways that you turn toward each other rather than away. Daily small connections keep the couple emotionally engaged and build up an "emotional savings account" that can be drawn from in times of stress. Turning toward your mate in the little things is the key to long lasting romance.

In a couple, partners make "bids" for their partner's attention, affection, humor, or support. People either turn toward one another after these "bids", or turn away. Turning toward is the basis for emotional connection, romance and passion. Turning away (ignoring) a bid kills intimacy. The relationship won't survive. Often, a partner's protest is simply a bid for more connection. When the other partner ignores it, anger increases and distance is created.

The first step in turning toward each other more is simply to be aware of how crucial these mundane moments are, not just to the stability of your relationship, but to it's ongoing sense of romance. Often, a person in the couple turns away, not out of malice but out of mindlessness. They must realize the importance of little moments and gestures and pay attention to doing them.

6. Things that fill the emotional bank account (things that say, "I love you and I want more of you")

exercising together
playing board games
celebrating milestones
traveling together
cooking together
eating meals and each talking about your day to keep updated
talking by open fire
reading together out loud

7. Men who allow their wives to influence them have happier marriages and are less likely to divorce than men who resist their wives' influence. The happiest, most stable marriages were the ones in which the husband treated his wife with respect and didn't resist power sharing and decision making with her but actively searched for common ground with her. (Stonewalling and refusing to plan things out with her is a power play. The one who says the least has the most power. When a man ignores her influence, it creates instability in the relationship and the marriage will be damaged).

*Women tend to allow their husbands to influence them. The research bears out that she can, in anger, escalate into negativity and it won't harm the marriage but if the husband does it (through stonewalling or bullying) it does harm their marriage. *If the husband accepts her influence, the wife is less likely to be harsh when something causes stress. If she feels hopeless about being able to influence him, she will be "triggered" and her negativity will escalate.

When a husband accepts his wifes influence, his open attitude heightens the positive in his relationship by strengthening his friendship with his wife. It makes it easier for him to deepen his love map of her, bolster fondness and admiraton and turn toward his wife. This helps him learn from his wife many of the emotional skills that she learned growing up and he didn't. *Studies show that from a very young age (1 1/2 years), boys will accept influence only from boys when they play and girls accept influence from boys and girls equally.*

8. The emotionally intelligent husband:

Learns how to connect with his wife
Chooses "us" over "me"
Makes his career less of a priority than his marriage
Makes a detailed map of his wife's world
Keeps in daily touch with his admiration and fondness of her
Communicates his admiration and fondness of her by turning toward her in a myriad of daily actions
This leads to a meaningful and rich life
Having this happy home base makes it possible for him to create and work effectively
*Because he is so connected to his mate, she will not only come to him when she is troubled but also when she is delighted*

9. More than 80% of the time, it is the wife who brings up sticky marital issues, while the husband tries to avoid discussing them. This isn't a symptom of a troubled marriage- it's true in most happy marriages as well.

10. Marital conflicts fall into two categories: Perpetual (unsolvable) and Resolvable. Couples can get gridlocked over perpetual problems until they realize that unrequited dreams are at the core of every gridlocked conflict. The endless arguement symbolizes some profound difference between them that needs to be addressed before the problem can be put in it's place (and a compromise reached).

In gridlock:
Conflict makes you feel rejected by your partner
You talk but make no headway
You become entrenched in your position and unwilling to budge
When you do discuss it, you end up more frustrated and hurt
You start to villify each other
Humor and amusement and affection disappear
Become less and less willing to compromise
Finally, disengage emotionally
11. The basis for coping effectively is communicating a basic acceptance of your partner's personality. People can only change if they feel they are basically liked and accepted as they are. To be able to repair what's already happened, you have to forgive each other for past differences and give up past resentments.

12. To resolve conflict:

Soften your start up approach *(women are usually responsible for harsh start-up but husband can make sure she is feeling known, respected, and loved and that he accepts her influence and her stance will soften)*
Learn to make and receive repair attempts
Soothe yourself and each other when emotions get high
Compromise
Be tolerant of each other's faults
Build "we-ness", make sure your partner comes before anyone else
Work as a team on financial issues
Keep working on your unresolvable conflicts. Couples who are demanding of their marriage are more likely to have deeply satisfying unions thatn those who lower their expectations._

Condensed from The Seven Principles of Making a Marriage Work by John Gottman. A recommended read!!! Based on lots of meticulous research with actual couples.


----------



## jld

Cinna, the other day, when you reached out to her and watched a movie with her, and held her, those were repair attempts. And she responded to them. Your repair attempts were leadership. The stonewalling that Gottman describes (ignoring her or shutting her out) is not.

What is hard is that you feel filled with resentment. You feel she has been disrespectful to you and you are looking to her to repair that. It is hard to forgive that and choose a repair attempt, instead of the natural desire to stonewall her in return. And some here seemed to be supporting that stonewalling.

I think it would be good to study Gottman's research and share it with your wife. But more than waiting for her to put what is taught there into practice, I would encourage you to lead the way with that. She has already shown that she will respond to your positive example.


----------



## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> CB, over time, I developed zero tolerance for abuse and manipulation in our home. If my son comes at me trying to manipulate to get his way, I will flat out call him on it saying "don't manipulate me, speak it straight." When he speaks straight, I thank him and make him feel safe and proud.
> 
> Thats another way to deal with the silent treatment. "Don't manipulate me. If you've got something upsetting you, use your words, but I will no longer tolerate you using your emotions like weapons."If she needs processing time to form the words be gracious and give her that, but call that stuff what it is, total manipulation. From my experience it shuts it down in one of two ways. They realize what an immature putz move that is and stop OR they flee. Either way, that poor behavior leaves.
> 
> That kind of stuff ticks me off if you can't tell  It is royal putzery.
> 
> And just so you know... Standing up to this stuff pays off. I've been getting repeated feedback from my husband. He is deeply content. Views me as quality and told me repeatedly why he loves me lately. One of them surprisingly being that I dont run with packs of destructive women and the attitude of respect I maintain with him. He said, you have your own strength but you default to my leadership. It has cultivated a trust in me. We'll be watching a show, see highly destructive women with crappy distespectful attitudes and he will look at me and say, I am so glad you are not like these women. And last night we were watching the Bachelor finale and he stopped in the middle of it and said in a very thoughtful touching way "I *really* have a winner in you." Its the highest level of contentment I've seen in him since we've been together.
> 
> He has really been considering who I am to him and who I am not. At first he railed against my corrective attitude against manipulation and abuse. Today, he thanks me for kicking his a$$. He's a better man today because I didn't back down. And even though I always kept a high level of respect for him, regardless of his behavior, since thats the wife I choose to be because of my relationship with Christ, today my respect for him fits like a glove because he rounded out to fit the respect that was already there.
> 
> See I dont agree with the premise that respect has to be earned by my husband. From my perview it was already earned on the cross by Christ, therefore I am free to choose to give respect to honor Christ. My respect for my husband has nothing to do with my H's behavior. It has everything to do with my choice and my relationship to Christ. And because of that relationship I called my H's putzery on the carpet. He was behaving less than the respect he is called by Christ to own. My job was to maintain the respect, period. Its his is to be a respectable man. But one does not preclude the other.
> 
> Its why disrespectful, entitled women tick me off sending these men through unending hoop jumping to "earn" love, respect, sex, trinkets, etc from them. Or women who need to grow up and stop using their emotions like weapons. Both get under my skin. I see both as a lack in the womans understanding about Christs call for her to respect her husband.
> 
> And bank it on I will be hammered on TAM for that position.


No hammers from me Blossom. You and my wife sound like you were cut from the same cloth.


----------



## bfree

Jld and I disagree a lot of times. But in this case I'm echoing her advice. Just because your wife has to scratch claw and take charge at work doesn't mean she wants to do the same at home.

Where there is no vision, the people perish. —Proverbs 29:18

A leader is one who knows the way, goes the way, and shows the way. —John Maxwell


----------



## jld

bfree said:


> Jld and I disagree a lot of times. But in this case I'm echoing her advice.


Better be careful, bfree. You have been doing more and more of this lately . . .


----------



## cinnabomb

jld said:


> Cinna, the other day, when you reached out to her and watched a movie with her, and held her, those were repair attempts. And she responded to them. Your repair attempts were leadership. The stonewalling that Gottman describes (ignoring her or shutting her out) is not.
> 
> What is hard is that you feel filled with resentment. You feel she has been disrespectful to you and you are looking to her to repair that. It is hard to forgive that and choose a repair attempt, instead of the natural desire to stonewall her in return. And some here seemed to be supporting that stonewalling.
> 
> I think it would be good to study Gottman's research and share it with your wife. But more than waiting for her to put what is taught there into practice, I would encourage you to lead the way with that. She has already shown that she will respond to your positive example.


Thanks for all this. I am familiar with gottman actually, because our last therapist (a nightmare) gave us 2 copies of the book. There is a TON of truth to the stuff you pasted here, and it's pretty well known to me and our therapist that our biggest issue is that arguments are not productive or healthy. This is mostly due to my wife and therapist agrees. Her anger issues and inability to stay under control turn any argument into a nightmare for us. I dont raise my voice or call names or any of that stuff. I just focus on trying to hear her out and also trying to express my hurt too, but wife wont have it. She thinks 100% of the time, I started the fight. It's an immature way of thinking. Truth is, the majority of our fights are started from misunderstandings in communication but wife cant see that and wants to inflict blame and not hear out my side. 

So I told therapist, "if we cannot have constructive arguments, there is no future for us." She agreed with me. Its a MAJOR problem and I have tried changing MY side a myriad of ways, to little or no avail. The only thing I havent done is yell back at her. I used to do that MANY years ago and that would fuel the fire even more also, and then she would yell louder, throw things, slam the door and leave. She has a really bad temper and needs to work on that. 

In a case like this, what do you recommend from me, when we are arguing and she simply isnt listening to my side or willing to take any responsibility for her hurtful actions?

On a side note, when I read that list you pasted of activities, I felt a bit sad because I am always asking wife to join me in all those types of things (for 10+ years), but she never wants to because always has her head in her laptop. The only one she WILL do it talk about her day when we are in bed. I think it has definitely contributes to the erosion of our relationship:

exercising together
playing board games
celebrating milestones
traveling together
cooking together
eating meals and each talking about your day to keep updated
talking by open fire
reading together out loud


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> No hammers from me Blossom. You and my wife sound like you were cut from the same cloth.


I am honored Sir. Tell her this Girl has got her back.


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> Thanks for all this. I am familiar with gottman actually, because our last therapist (a nightmare) gave us 2 copies of the book. There is a TON of truth to the stuff you pasted here, and it's pretty well known to me and our therapist that our biggest issue is that arguments are not productive or healthy. This is mostly due to my wife and therapist agrees. Her anger issues and inability to stay under control turn any argument into a nightmare for us. I dont raise my voice or call names or any of that stuff. I just focus on trying to hear her out and also trying to express my hurt too, but wife wont have it. She thinks 100% of the time, I started the fight. It's an immature way of thinking. Truth is, the majority of our fights are started from misunderstandings in communication but wife cant see that and wants to inflict blame and not hear out my side.
> 
> So I told therapist, "if we cannot have constructive arguments, there is no future for us." She agreed with me. Its a MAJOR problem and I have tried changing MY side a myriad of ways, to little or no avail. The only thing I havent done is yell back at her. I used to do that MANY years ago and that would fuel the fire even more also, and then she would yell louder, throw things, slam the door and leave. She has a really bad temper and needs to work on that.
> 
> In a case like this, what do you recommend from me, when we are arguing and she simply isnt listening to my side or willing to take any responsibility for her hurtful actions?
> 
> On a side note, when I read that list you pasted of activities, I felt a bit sad because I am always asking wife to join me in all those types of things (for 10+ years), but she never wants to because always has her head in her laptop. The only one she WILL do it talk about her day when we are in bed. I think it has definitely contributes to the erosion of our relationship:
> 
> exercising together
> playing board games
> celebrating milestones
> traveling together
> cooking together
> eating meals and each talking about your day to keep updated
> talking by open fire
> reading together out loud


Active listening. I think it could help you in a big way. Are you familiar with it?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Mutual respect in a relationship is an absolute requirement. My W and I never bad mouth each other in front of anyone - if we disagree we talk about it privately. 

My parents never bad mouthed each other, though they humorously bicker from time to time. They're in their 80s so after decades together that's just fine 

My W's parents divorced in grade school when FIL was established in AA - perhaps some familial learned shame or learned secrecy patterns also influenced her. No matter - it is a very positive character trait regardless of how it is cultivated.

Personally - I believe any spouse who builds resentment or allows respect for their S to wain is the offending party in the relationship. It's on you to rectify that if you allow your views of your S to become negative.

That's why I naturally gravitated to the TAM mantra that you can't nice your way back or win back a spouse who is straying or moving emotionally away from you. It goes against my beliefs - I agree with Blossom that no one should have to earn respect after a couple has judged the character of the other and chosen to accept it. 

If you were deceived about the character of your S - or if it changes - then articulate your expectations and leave if they're not met.

This is why this whole thread is disturbing and not likely to end well - I think it goes against human nature to expect someone else to change and become someone you want - unless they really want it and basically plead with you to help them change. That ALMOST never happens. Wishes and Lonely Husbands W come to mind plus a few other WW if TAM.


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## TheTruthHurts

BTW CB don't take my post above as saying you don't have things to work on - you really do - but W isn't coming back and don't expect her to until she begs you to help her change - and I don't see that happening.


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## EVG39

Yep Gottman should know all about how marriages work by now. He's on his third one.


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## cinnabomb

Looking for advice this time around before I do anything. If you have been following this forum, you know that wifes mom is obese with a myriad of health issues (diabetes, etc), and wife is following exactly in her footsteps: eating chocolates and sweet constantly and not in moderation, hasnt exercised in 3+ years, etc. She has gained more weight these last 1.5 years than in our 15 years together. 

Today I was cleaning out some stuff and opened her desk drawer to find a huge epty bag of chocolates. I felt instantly sickened and I know that at work she does the same, just eating chocolates all day long. I have noticed a pretty significant drop in her energy also when she is home, and I am sure the huge sugar intake has a lot to do with that. Her lack of ability to get up when she is home is also affecting our marriage in that she doesnt want to do anything with me (see previous post). 

I am really concerned here. Not just about the weight, but I dont want to be with someone like her mom, who is gluttonous and has all those health issues. Its happening right before my eyes and wife doesnt seem to care or have any willpower to check herself. What should I do here? Should I bring up the bag I found? Im sure she will just get mad as usual but I dont think she has any idea the impact all this sugar is having on her, AND us.


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## bfree

jld said:


> Better be careful, bfree. You have been doing more and more of this lately . . .


I know huh? Hope I don't lose my mancard.


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## jld

bfree said:


> I know huh? Hope I don't lose my mancard.


You might actually get one. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Celes

I dunno if you blocked me or not CB but I suggest watching the documentary "Fed Up" with your wife. It's an eye opener. I've personally given up sugar the last couple of weeks and already feel great. I wouldn't bring up anything with her. Just put it on and watch it together.


----------



## jld

I'm joking with you, Bfree. I hope that's clear. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Looking for advice this time around before I do anything. If you have been following this forum, you know that wifes mom is obese with a myriad of health issues (diabetes, etc), and wife is following exactly in her footsteps: eating chocolates and sweet constantly and not in moderation, hasnt exercised in 3+ years, etc. She has gained more weight these last 1.5 years than in our 15 years together.
> 
> Today I was cleaning out some stuff and opened her desk drawer to find a huge epty bag of chocolates. I felt instantly sickened and I know that at work she does the same, just eating chocolates all day long. I have noticed a pretty significant drop in her energy also when she is home, and I am sure the huge sugar intake has a lot to do with that. Her lack of ability to get up when she is home is also affecting our marriage in that she doesnt want to do anything with me (see previous post).
> 
> I am really concerned here. Not just about the weight, but I dont want to be with someone like her mom, who is gluttonous and has all those health issues. Its happening right before my eyes and wife doesnt seem to care or have any willpower to check herself. What should I do here? Should I bring up the bag I found? Im sure she will just get mad as usual but I dont think she has any idea the impact all this sugar is having on her, AND us.


I think it may be time to very honestly tell her how you feel, but my recommendation is to do it with the marriage counselor.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> she will just maniacally yell and lose her mind until she gets her way
> 
> If I am positive, fun, happy, playful, she often mimics, and if I am distant, hurt, etc, then she mimics that too.


Unless she wants what she wants and she tears you a new arsehole until you give in.


----------



## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> I think it may be time to very honestly tell her how you feel, but my recommendation is to do it with the marriage counselor.


I agree.


----------



## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> I think it may be time to very honestly tell her how you feel, but my recommendation is to do it with the marriage counselor.


And try doing it in a non judgmental way.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Absolutely don't confront her. She's a grown woman. Either express your thoughts and needs in MC, forget about it, or divorce her. Those are your only 3 options. Anything else won't change her, but will make her resent you more for nagging and judging her and basically calling her a fat pig.


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> I am really concerned here. Not just about the weight, but I dont want to be with someone like her mom, who is gluttonous and has all those health issues. Its happening right before my eyes and wife doesnt seem to care or have any willpower to check herself. What should I do here? Should I bring up the bag I found? Im sure she will just get mad as usual but I dont think she has any idea the impact all this sugar is having on her, AND us.


You are not concerned for your wife or her health. You are only concerned about how it impacts you if she gets fat. Don't say a word to her or things will only get worse. You will come across very badly. This is why your wife doesn't feel accepted by you. You do not seem at all concerned about her well being or her as a person, only about what she does for you and how she treats you. I think that may be at the root of a lot of your marriage issues.


----------



## cinnabomb

CynthiaDe said:


> You are not concerned for your wife or her health. You are only concerned about how it impacts you if she gets fat. Don't say a word to her or things will only get worse. You will come across very badly. This is why your wife doesn't feel accepted by you. You do not seem at all concerned about her well being or her as a person, only about what she does for you and how she treats you. I think that may be at the root of a lot of your marriage issues.


very untrue. You dont know how much her parents health issues have caused grief for their children and I have seen it firsthand. Also, EVERY time my wife has ever gotten sick in any way, I was there taking care of her in every way possible. It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Both issues are important to me.


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> very untrue. You dont know how much her parents health issues have caused grief for their children and I have seen it firsthand. Also, EVERY time my wife has ever gotten sick in any way, I was there taking care of her in every way possible. It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Both issues are important to me.


I should have phrased that better. Your comments showed only a concern for yourself and no concern for your wife. If that's how you come across to her, she probably thinks you don't really love her and aren't attracted to her anymore.


----------



## sparrow555

CynthiaDe said:


> You are not concerned for your wife or her health. You are only concerned about how it impacts you if she gets fat. Don't say a word to her or things will only get worse. You will come across very badly. This is why your wife doesn't feel accepted by you. You do not seem at all concerned about her well being or her as a person, only about what she does for you and how she treats you. I think that may be at the root of a lot of your marriage issues.


Are you fat ? I can't see how you turned this back on him. He shouldn't be worried about her looks except for how it effects on her health?


----------



## Cynthia

sparrow555 said:


> Are you fat ? I can't see how you turned this back on him. He shouldn't be worried about her looks except for how it effects on her health?


No. I'm not fat at all. I am in better shape than at least 90% of women my age. I often have trouble finding clothes in my small size.

What I am saying is that he comes across as only being concerned about her looks.

I also think he's a bit obsessed with her weight and concern over her getting fat.

I understand that people want an attractive spouse and some people are really turned off by fat, but the more one obsesses over it, the more contempt is built for the person it is directed at. Contempt is death to a marriage.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> No. I'm not fat at all. I am in better shape than at least 90% of women my age. I often have trouble finding clothes in my small size.
> 
> What I am saying is that he comes across as only being concerned about her looks.
> 
> I also think he's a bit obsessed with her weight and concern over her getting fat.
> 
> I understand that people want an attractive spouse and some people are really turned off by fat, but the more one obsesses over it, the more contempt is built for the person it is directed at. Contempt is death to a marriage.


It needs to be reasonable concern, not contemptuous concern... I would agree CynthiaDe.


----------



## turnera

I believe he's described her mom as gross or some such, so I took it that if his wife gets that fat, he'll think she's gross, too.

Which is fine. Attractiveness is a valid emotional need. He just needs to be smart about how he brings it up.


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## Cynthia

If my husband gave me the impression that he was concerned that I was getting fat and gross, it would extremely hurt my feelings.
A little background on me. I was skinny as a child and into my young adulthood. I had my first baby around 30. It changed my body for the better, but I was still very thin. After having my last child at 35, I put on a few pounds, but was still thin until after 40, then my weight began to climb. I couldn't figure it out. My doctor told me I was eating properly, but the weight continued to slowly creep up. I was frustrated - extremely. I passed my highest pregnancy weight. I got frantic. I started to study what could be causing me to gain weight and made radical changes to my diet. I lost 30-35 lbs. and got back down to a comfortable weight for me. I am thin and fit.
So I do understand the concern about weight gain, but if my husband would have treated me like I was no longer attractive and told me so, I would have been devastated.


----------



## Jeffyboy

She needs masculine energy to do her job well and she's rewarded for it so it's hard for her to turn that off when she gets home. It's a bit of a pickle. A catch 22. I wish I could think of something. Maybe you could convince her to get a more simple job, live the simple life, have less stress?


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## cinnabomb

Jeffyboy said:


> She needs masculine energy to do her job well and she's rewarded for it so it's hard for her to turn that off when she gets home. It's a bit of a pickle. A catch 22. I wish I could think of something. Maybe you could convince her to get a more simple job, live the simple life, have less stress?


no sorry. she isnt interested. she loves her job more than she loves me. thats jut the plain truth. Ive taken second to her career for more than 10 years. Its very hard. and guess what? after all this MC, she now took on yet ANOTHER responsibility that she didnt need to, so spending another 1 hour+ on her laptop per day than she needed to. She just doesnt get that a marriage requires time. a typical day is he giving me maybe 5 minutes of time between morning until bed. 5 MINUTES. Im sick of it. I shouldnt have to live like this.


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## bandit.45

Then why do you?


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> Im sick of it. I shouldnt have to live like this.


But you do.

So why should she change?

(PS, please use apostrophes)


----------



## TheTruthHurts

cinnabomb said:


> CynthiaDe said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are not concerned for your wife or her health. You are only concerned about how it impacts you if she gets fat. Don't say a word to her or things will only get worse. You will come across very badly. This is why your wife doesn't feel accepted by you. You do not seem at all concerned about her well being or her as a person, only about what she does for you and how she treats you. I think that may be at the root of a lot of your marriage issues.
> 
> 
> 
> very untrue. You dont know how much her parents health issues have caused grief FOR THEIR CHILDREN and I have seen it firsthand. Also, EVERY time my wife has ever gotten sick in any way, I WAS TAKING CARE of her in every way possible. It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. Both issues are important TO ME.
Click to expand...

please reread what you wrote. Can't bold on mobile app so I used capital letters.

None of you concerns expressed were about your wife. Can you see how this sounds to her?

You say her weight will affect you and the kids. You say you are her care giver.

Nothing in there about her.

The words you use convey anger and contempt and concern about others but not your wife.

BTW she sounds like a piece of work and I'm in no way defending her. But I do believe you need to read our posts less defensively so you can accept criticism and accept how you actually come across.


----------



## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> please reread what you wrote. Can't bold on mobile app so I used capital letters.
> 
> None of you concerns expressed were about your wife. Can you see how this sounds to her?
> 
> You say her weight will affect you and the kids. You say you are her care giver.
> 
> Nothing in there about her.
> 
> The words you use convey anger and contempt and concern about others but not your wife.
> 
> BTW she sounds like a piece of work and I'm in no way defending her. But I do believe you need to read our posts less defensively so you can accept criticism and accept how you actually come across.


I was trying to make a point that her parents caused their children a lot of grief because of their poor health choices, and she is repeating that same pattern. Maybe I wasn't clear. 

As for why I stay....I dont know. Hope, I guess. Somedays I don't know. Lately I've been trying to be a bit more upbeat like we talked about, but it's hard, because she is terribly self-absorbed, and it drains the energy out of me. I'm lonely. I need a hug. Maybe some conversation. I am starting a brand new career, starting from the bottom, and it's hard not having someone by my side to talk about it and have some support. I'm working with IC on the emotional hose thing, but I'm not gonna lie...I'm having a hard time. 

Yesterday I had a dream and someone was asking me what I want in a woman....I think it was MC or IC. I said something to the effect "I want someone I can love, someone who loves me. I want someone who takes joy in the little things in life, gets inspired and moved by music, art, nature, little things in life, even a movie, etc. Someone passionate about life." When i woke up I felt wierd because she used to be alike that, but over the years became really emotionally disconnected from things, me included. I don't think I can change any of those things, so it's a harsh reality for me....do I want to live like this forever? Am I courageous enough to leave, risk being alone, at the chance of a happier life? 

I dont know, but for now, just keep trying IC and MC.


----------



## turnera

cb, how could you NOT have a happier life away from her?

In all the years I've done these forums, I have not yet had a man come back after divorcing and say 'God, I wish I would have stayed; staying with a cold fish was MUCH better than being single and meeting new people and doing things with fun people who enjoy being around me.'

In fact, most of them have come back and said they found a new, improved wife, and they can't believe they stuck around for such a selfish POS wife for so many years, when there are REALLY NICE women out there.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> cb, how could you NOT have a happier life away from her?
> 
> In all the years I've done these forums, I have not yet had a man come back after divorcing and say 'God, I wish I would have stayed; staying with a cold fish was MUCH better than being single and meeting new people and doing things with fun people who enjoy being around me.'
> 
> In fact, most of them have come back and said they found a new, improved wife, and they can't believe they stuck around for such a selfish POS wife for so many years, when there are REALLY NICE women out there.


I'm glad you said that because I was thinking after this last post "he needs to give himself permission to leave."


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm glad you said that because I was thinking after this last post "he needs to give himself permission to leave."


Sigh. I guess I'm not sure I believe that. Sometimes I feel like...."am I just asking for too much?". I mean, she is a good person, I think, overall. Very likeable. She's just not a good wife. She is a great mother. And she never bad talks me to our baby. She knows I am a great father and wants me in babys life. She even has a strong relationship with my parents. I even love her family (well most of them, anyways). 

I dont know. I'm so confused. I am not ready to give all that up, for the chance of a better life. I don't even want to hurt her. I know that sounds weak, but I don't want to cause her pain, because I don't think the pain she is causing me is intentional. I just think she is a messed up person in some ways. Her mother did a real number on her. Her business partner did a real number on her. Her industry F-ed her up. I know this all sounds like justification, but it's not. I just want you to know my honest mental struggle. I don't think she woke up one day and decided to be neglectful. I don't think she has a clue she is being that way. 

I feel sad. I am burdened by this horrible limbo that I'm in, not knowing which way I'm going. I said this earlier and it's awful, but I sort of feel like if she HAD cheated on me, it would be so easy for me to be done with it because i have 0 tolerance for infidelity. But I doubt she has. It's more just years of neglect and sort of abusive behavior. But right now its not SO egregious that it's as clear as day. It's like...sometimes there are nice moments, and sometimes not. It's very confusing. 

Sometimes I look forward to seeing her. Other times, I actually physically get a knot in my stomach when I know I am about to see her. That's not normal. I feel ill because of the hurt and pain that I associate with seeing her, and KNOWING that when i see her, she will just ignore me and treat me like I don't exist, is more painful than not seeing her. 

I know what you're all going to say. "It's clear that I should move on." But I too am learning a lot about the mistakes that I made and I want to give this a fair shot. I just dont know where to begin. What book to start with? What "method" to implement. I'm having a bit of a hard time reaching out to her to be honest. We talked about this earlier. Doing the "180" but still hugging when I want a hug etc. Although she WILL smile when I do it, she rarely ever initiates it, and that hurts. Also, it's hard for me to initiate because I'm still in pain and in doubt of our future, and I feel like "am I sending the wrong message???"

I'm so freaking confused. Any guidance on how to proceed?


----------



## Cynthia

In this order:
Codependent No More http://www.amazon.com/Codependent-N...eywords=codependent+no+more+by+melody+beattie

This book explains what is a normal, healthy family and relationship. It is also about codependency, but it clearly shows that is and is not healthy in relationships. Excellent book. Facing Codependence: What It Is, Where It Comes from, How It Sabotages Our Lives. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/00...ody&qid=1458336222&ref_=sr_1_1&s=books&sr=1-1

Once you get the basics on what is healthy, what is no, and where are in the mix, start reading about relationships and boundaries. There are a ton of books out there and others will share what they have found most helpful.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Its not easy cinna... We've all been there.


----------



## cinnabomb

thanks for the recommendations. things have not been great lately and my IC says I should put myself out there a bit, be kind and caring, not keep score or expect things in return, but I'm struggling with that for sure. And sometimes I try it, and it hurts when I get rejected. 

Like an example, our babys bday is coming up soon, and wife comes in and says "im doing this and this and this and cooking this and making this, etc", and already went out and bought all the stuff without talking to me. She literally planned all this stuff out without even thinking I would want to be a part of it, and in the past we always collaborated on things. 

I felt hurt to be left out. In the past I might not have even said anything. But today she said "do you want to help with this stuff?", and I said "no go ahead, this is your thing". She said "no its OUR thing." I said "It feels more like your thing because I am only finding out about all this right now and you already made those decisions. I feel a bit left out." She started talking in a really rude tone and said "OKAYYYYYY, well I'm doing all this so that she can have a great birthday because I love her", as if my issue has anything to do with preventing my baby from having fun. She doesnt get it that I am her partner, and she can't keep making decisions without including me. This is the exact same basis for that purse argument a couple weeks ago. She acts as if she is totally independent. I tried to voice my hurt, but it didn't do anything but make her rage come out. She got up and just left in mid conversation. I did not raise my voice, say anything in a harsh way, etc...just focused on my feelings. 

Meanwhile, the day before I drove us 2.5 hours to take baby to celebrate her bday at a theme park (even though I didnt want to go), and was a total sport and carried baby around all day and not even a thank you, despite my exhaustion. And suddenly shes acting like I DONT want my baby to have fun. I just dont think her thought process is a normal or healthy one. Everything is taken as an attack. 

This is every conversation between us. Her default is anger at being told that she did something hurtful, and she can't seem to ever understand that she might have done something that caused hurt. All she seems to respond with is "you dare to criticize me?? How dare you."


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> thanks for the recommendations. things have not been great lately and my IC says I should put myself out there a bit, be kind and caring, not keep score or expect things in return, but I'm struggling with that for sure. And sometimes I try it, and it hurts when I get rejected.
> 
> Like an example, our babys bday is coming up soon, and wife comes in and says "im doing this and this and this and cooking this and making this, etc", and already went out and bought all the stuff without talking to me. She literally planned all this stuff out without even thinking I would want to be a part of it, and in the past we always collaborated on things.
> 
> I felt hurt to be left out. In the past I might not have even said anything. But today she said "do you want to help with this stuff?", and I said "no go ahead, this is your thing". She said "no its OUR thing." I said "It feels more like your thing because I am only finding out about all this right now and you already made those decisions. I feel a bit left out." She started talking in a really rude tone and said "OKAYYYYYY, well I'm doing all this so that she can have a great birthday because I love her", as if my issue has anything to do with preventing my baby from having fun. She doesnt get it that I am her partner, and she can't keep making decisions without including me. This is the exact same basis for that purse argument a couple weeks ago. She acts as if she is totally independent. I tried to voice my hurt, but it didn't do anything but make her rage come out. She got up and just left in mid conversation. I did not raise my voice, say anything in a harsh way, etc...just focused on my feelings.
> 
> Meanwhile, the day before I drove us 2.5 hours to take baby to celebrate her bday at a theme park (even though I didnt want to go), and was a total sport and carried baby around all day and not even a thank you, despite my exhaustion. And suddenly shes acting like I DONT want my baby to have fun. I just dont think her thought process is a normal or healthy one. Everything is taken as an attack.
> 
> This is every conversation between us. Her default is anger at being told that she did something hurtful, and she can't seem to ever understand that she might have done something that caused hurt. All she seems to respond with is "you dare to criticize me?? How dare you."


You feel hurt and left out. You want to feel considered, like your voice matters. You want your wife to nurture you in this way, make you feel warm and loved and included.

Instead, she gets defensive if you share your hurt feelings, as though she were being attacked. It is like she feels you were telling her she was bad in some way, and she is too emotionally fragile to hear it and make you feel better. Instead she wants you to make her feel good. And that just does not feel fair.

Why do you think the IC suggests not keeping score or expecting things in return? Why do you think he or she stresses being loving and kind to your wife instead?


----------



## cinnabomb

jld said:


> You feel hurt and left out. You want to feel considered, like your voice matters. You want your wife to nurture you in this way, make you feel warm and loved and included.
> 
> Instead, she gets defensive if you share your hurt feelings, as though she were being attacked. It is like she feels you were telling her she was bad in some way, and she is too emotionally fragile to hear it and make you feel better. Instead she wants you to make her feel good. And that just does not feel fair.
> 
> Why do you think the IC suggests not keeping score or expecting things in return? Why do you think he or she stresses being loving and kind to your wife instead?


you hit it on the head. it IS very one-sided. That's such BS. 

I don't know for sure why IC feels I should do this, except that he says "regardless of the marriage, its healthier to give without expectations of return." I agree with him on that. But I also feel like this particular circumstance is complicated. I'm so tired of giving and getting NOTHING in returns. And when I voice my feelings, I get even worse treatment, verbal abuse, rudeness, neglect, and the inevitable "ignoring for the next few days". Just tired of it. 

I really think she needs some pretty serious IC work to help her neurotic behavior and temper but I doubt she will ever change at this point. She doesn't even admit she has these issues or have any desire to want to change, and she can easily fool an IC. They won't see these issues in her because she puts on a great show for them. 

Not sure what to do....do I keep putting myself out there and keep trying??? Do I try and foster a more positive environment with the hopes that somewhere, things will change and she will start to become more positive and nurturing as well??? Is that realistic??


----------



## TheTruthHurts

While I think you should definitely listen to blossom and the others here you should realize that you are "broken" by this. By that I mean you are so fatigued by the status quo that you don't know up from down and can't see normal from f'd up.

It also means you're super easy to trigger - the slightest elbow movement by W "confirms" your belief that she doesn't respect you. Then you react to that. But be aware that this means you are OVERreacting - because those slights are very subtle - and at the slightest hint (like she opens her ipad) and you'll probably assume she's going to ignore you and you're hurt and pissed off. AND the key is she is a woman and still is emotionally intelligent so she sees your negative reaction - and she in turn shuts down to protect herself.

I think that has to be going on. I did that - maybe at 10% if you're level because I'm more john Wayne than I am a more modern sensitive guy like you . But my wife is still scarred by my emotional responses a while ago. She jokes - only half jokingly - that I'm only allowed one emotional moment a year from now on . The point is I upset her emotional "space" by having my own crises - she couldn't help but react - and her reaction was to pull away EXASERBATING my response. We're past it now but you should know that you sound like you're at your wits end and I know W is responding to that.


----------



## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> While I think you should definitely listen to blossom and the others here you should realize that you are "broken" by this. By that I mean you are so fatigued by the status quo that you don't know up from down and can't see normal from f'd up.
> 
> It also means you're super easy to trigger - the slightest elbow movement by W "confirms" your belief that she doesn't respect you. Then you react to that. But be aware that this means you are OVERreacting - because those slights are very subtle - and at the slightest hint (like she opens her ipad) and you'll probably assume she's going to ignore you and you're hurt and pissed off. AND the key is she is a woman and still is emotionally intelligent so she sees your negative reaction - and she in turn shuts down to protect herself.
> 
> I think that has to be going on. I did that - maybe at 10% if you're level because I'm more john Wayne than I am a more modern sensitive guy like you . But my wife is still scarred by my emotional responses a while ago. She jokes - only half jokingly - that I'm only allowed one emotional moment a year from now on . The point is I upset her emotional "space" by having my own crises - she couldn't help but react - and her reaction was to pull away EXASERBATING my response. We're past it now but you should know that you sound like you're at your wits end and I know W is responding to that.


Fair enough. So what's your advice to me to fix it?? Or are we beyond repair....


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> you hit it on the head. it IS very one-sided. That's such BS.
> 
> I don't know for sure why IC feels I should do this, except that he says "regardless of the marriage, its healthier to give without expectations of return." I agree with him on that. But I also feel like this particular circumstance is complicated. I'm so tired of giving and getting NOTHING in returns. And when I voice my feelings, I get even worse treatment, verbal abuse, rudeness, neglect, and the inevitable "ignoring for the next few days". Just tired of it.
> 
> I really think she needs some pretty serious IC work to help her neurotic behavior and temper but I doubt she will ever change at this point. She doesn't even admit she has these issues or have any desire to want to change, and she can easily fool an IC. They won't see these issues in her because she puts on a great show for them.
> 
> Not sure what to do....do I keep putting myself out there and keep trying??? Do I try and foster a more positive environment with the hopes that somewhere, things will change and she will start to become more positive and nurturing as well??? Is that realistic??


What you did last week seemed to work well. She seems like a responder more than a leader. She responded well to your leadership.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Btw I am not sexist but I do believe most women expect their men to be emotionally stronger than them. That's JLD's party line and she extends it to the belief that the man is emotionally responsible for the W which I think is horsesh*t. But I do believe foundationally that the man should "appear" the strongest. Your marriage is fvcked up because W fills that role in her job and you're not taking control when she comes home (you don't want to and she probably won't let you the way you are now wearing your emotions on your sleeve).

Kind of like dating - put forth the guy you want her to think you are - as opposed to the guy you really are (I.e. Show her her you want to be) - that's what she wants to see and she'll play along too IMO


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Btw I am not sexist but I do believe most women expect their men to be emotionally stronger than them. That's JLD's party line and she extends it to the belief that the man is emotionally responsible for the W which I think is horsesh*t. But I do believe foundationally that the man should "appear" the strongest. Your marriage is fvcked up because W fills that role in her job and you're not taking control when she comes home (you don't want to and she probably won't let you the way you are now wearing your emotions on your sleeve).
> 
> Kind of like dating - put forth the guy you want her to think you are - as opposed to the guy you really are (I.e. Show her her you want to be) - that's what she wants to see and she'll play along too IMO


I don't think you should "appear" to be anything you are not, cinna. But you showed last week that there *is* genuine leadership in you, that there is a masculine core. When you trust yourself and reach inside for it, it is there. You just get confused when you ask her for something that you can find inside yourself, if you look for it.


----------



## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> Btw I am not sexist but I do believe most women expect their men to be emotionally stronger than them. That's JLD's party line and she extends it to the belief that the man is emotionally responsible for the W which I think is horsesh*t. But I do believe foundationally that the man should "appear" the strongest. Your marriage is fvcked up because W fills that role in her job and you're not taking control when she comes home (you don't want to and she probably won't let you the way you are now wearing your emotions on your sleeve).
> 
> Kind of like dating - put forth the guy you want her to think you are - as opposed to the guy you really are (I.e. Show her her you want to be) - that's what she wants to see and she'll play along too IMO


I get this and I'm trying, but it's hard. And when things like this happen, it pushes me further away. Was I wrong to express that I felt left out by her independent decision-making?

How to repair it now? She is ignoring me as usual. Do I bring it up? Do I try to explain that I feel hurt that she didn't take me seriously earlier? She isn't going to break the silence and doesn't care to and isn't emotionally stable enough to even understand her actions. So once again it's up to me to fix everything, even though I don't feel like a did anything wrong. 

What do you think?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Ok let's get to solutions.

What if - she came home and you said "honey I've been upset with iur relationship and I know you have sensed this. I want to move forward. I need - I REQUIRE - a W who respects be. And I don't think you do. I sense you want a H that is emotionally strong - which I haven't been. How do we fix this? Can you be more loving, emotionally available, more hugs and loving words? If you can I will work on being less judgemental, more accepting and stronger emotionally. Is that what you want? If so, can you help me figure out how to get from where we are today to that content place?"

IDK - I'm a direct person. Hope this helps


----------



## cinnabomb

jld said:


> I don't think you should "appear" to be anything you are not, cinna. But you showed last week that there *is* genuine leadership in you, that there is a masculine core. When you trust yourself and reach inside for it, it is there. You just get confused when you ask her for something that you can find inside yourself, if you look for it.


Sorry what do you mean I ask for something I can find in myself? Are you talking about in general or with this specific example of the bday party? Just need clarification.


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> Sorry what do you mean I ask for something I can find in myself? Are you talking about in general or with this specific example of the bday party? Just need clarification.


You showed strength last week when you reached out and asked her to watch a movie, and then held her while doing so. You did not ask her to nurture you, though her response was probably nurturing anyway, to some degree. 

She needs your strength. Her energy is going to her job and the baby. If you can give her your masculine energy, she will respond with her feminine energy--nurturing you back. But it has to start with you. And last week, it did.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ok let's get to solutions.
> 
> What if - she came home and you said "honey I've been upset with iur relationship and I know you have sensed this. I want to move forward. I need - I REQUIRE - a W who respects be. And I don't think you do. I sense you want a H that is emotionally strong - which I haven't been. How do we fix this? * Can you be more loving, emotionally available, more hugs and loving words? If you can I will work on being less judgemental, more accepting and stronger emotionally.* Is that what you want? If so, can you help me figure out how to get from where we are today to that content place?"
> 
> IDK - I'm a direct person. Hope this helps


You are asking her to give first. I think it is wiser for cinna to go first, and let her respond. She has shown she is a responder, not a leader. Work within her capabilities.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

cinnabomb said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you should "appear" to be anything you are not, cinna. But you showed last week that there *is* genuine leadership in you, that there is a masculine core. When you trust yourself and reach inside for it, it is there. You just get confused when you ask her for something that you can find inside yourself, if you look for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry what do you mean I ask for something I can find in myself? Are you talking about in general or with this specific example of the bday party? Just need clarification.
Click to expand...

Blah blah blah - I'm sorry but I guess JLD speaks to you new age guys that don't have your sh*t together. Sorry but that's how I read this. YES BE SOMEONE YOU'RE NOT!!! W doesn't respect who you ACTUALLY are - JLD doesn't get this part which is her main failing. She assumes your W thinks like she does - AND YOUR W DOESN'T! So yes - seriously - watch a few movies with Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, Vic Morrow in them. I'm serious. This is JLDs model of a man. And it may be what your W NEEDS. I think your generation was Fvcked when Allen Alda became a star bigger that those "real role models"


----------



## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> Ok let's get to solutions.
> 
> What if - she came home and you said "honey I've been upset with iur relationship and I know you have sensed this. I want to move forward. I need - I REQUIRE - a W who respects be. And I don't think you do. I sense you want a H that is emotionally strong - which I haven't been. How do we fix this? Can you be more loving, emotionally available, more hugs and loving words? If you can I will work on being less judgemental, more accepting and stronger emotionally. Is that what you want? If so, can you help me figure out how to get from where we are today to that content place?"
> 
> IDK - I'm a direct person. Hope this helps


Well I love this, but I'm hesitant because I just am not sure if she is stable enough to handle ANY kind of serious talk, especially when it involves her making changes that she likely doesn't want to make. I am 90% sure that the convo won't end well because all she keeps saying is that she wants to be accepted "as is", and I think to her that means "dont judge me or ask me to change." She seems to have a really skewed perspective of marriage. 

But you're right...this needs to happen. I'm not sure if the timing is right though. Also, here's another big issue....she refuses to talk about anything serious without our MC present. It's beyond frustrating. She literally can't stop herself from losing her cool 5 seconds into any convo if MC isnt present to explain to her that my feelings are valid and that I'm not attacking her at all, just explaining my experience.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

BTW I'm not joking - watch a few episodes of "combat"with Vic Morrow - you'll immediately understand the make role models I saw growing up and finally get what you should do


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sorry my train station approaches and I have a W and 5 kids so I will drop off soon..,

I'm not seeing your posts because you're responding immediately and my feed isn't refreshing. So I'm not ignoring you.

Don't confront right now. Get your sh*t together. Watch those guys I mentioned. Then reflect. That's all I'm saying. K? Gotta go check in tomorrow sorry


----------



## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> BTW I'm not joking - watch a few episodes of "combat"with Vic Morrow - you'll immediately understand the make role models I saw growing up and finally get what you should do


I think what JLD is saying is that there is no point in being inauthentic to myself, because the truth is, if it's not authentic then it wont last. I'm not an actor and can't put on an act forever. 

I CAN make changes that are true to me, and the truth is that I AM a masculine guy deep down, but that guy has been absolutely annihilated by her rage over the last 8 years. I am so pissed at myself that I didn't yell back at her and walk the F out all those years ago when she lost it on me. I hate that I was so scared. I wish I knew better.


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> I think what JLD is saying is that there is no point in being inauthentic to myself, because the truth is, if it's not authentic then it wont last. I'm not an actor and can't put on an act forever.
> 
> I CAN make changes that are true to me, and the truth is that I AM a masculine guy deep down, but that guy has been absolutely annihilated by her rage over the last 8 years. *I am so pissed at myself that I didn't yell back at her and walk the F out all those years ago when she lost it on me.* I hate that I was so scared. I wish I knew better.


Seek to understand and provide stability, cinna. Your wife needs your understanding and stability, not anger and abandonment.

Are you Christian? When Jesus's disciples were frightened by the storm, he calmed the sea. His reassurance and caring for them gave them great trust in him.

Treat your wife the way Jesus treated his disciples. Be strong where she is weak. You can do it. You did it last week.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Well I love this, but I'm hesitant because I just am not sure if she is stable enough to handle ANY kind of serious talk, especially when it involves her making changes that she likely doesn't want to make. I am 90% sure that the convo won't end well because all she keeps saying is that she wants to be accepted "as is", and I think to her that means "dont judge me or ask me to change." She seems to have a really skewed perspective of marriage.
> 
> But you're right...this needs to happen. I'm not sure if the timing is right though. Also, here's another big issue....she refuses to talk about anything serious without our MC present. It's beyond frustrating. She literally can't stop herself from losing her cool 5 seconds into any convo if MC isnt present to explain to her that my feelings are valid and that I'm not attacking her at all, just explaining my experience.



Classic Narcissistic responses by her.

You were not wrong in your pain.


----------



## cinnabomb

jld said:


> Seek to understand and provide stability, cinna. Your wife needs your understanding and stability, not anger and abandonment.
> 
> Are you Christian? When Jesus's disciples were frightened by the storm, he calmed the sea. His reassurance and caring for them gave them great trust in him.
> 
> Treat your wife the way Jesus treated his disciples. Be strong where she is weak. You can do it. You did it last week.


I hear what youre saying. I've tried the "calm" approach though for many years and it only seems to anger her more. The calmer and more logical I am in a situation like this, the more hostile and aggressive she becomes. That's why I said I should have stood up for myself all those years ago. Maybe a dose of her own medicine would have showed her how ridiculous she was being. Who knows. Maybe it wouldn't have done a thing. I just honestly can't believe someone can be so self absorbed and narcissistic. It's like my brain refuses to believe that it's true. If she came to me and said "honey I feel left out because you didnt include me..." I would immediately say "oh I'm sorry I honestly wasn't even trying to do that.". It's so strange to me that her response is with hostility and defense. 

I will try what you and my IC says, but in the meantime, what about this little argument? How to fix it?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> I hear what youre saying. I've tried the "calm" approach though for many years and it only seems to anger her more. The calmer and more logical I am in a situation like this, the more hostile and aggressive she becomes. That's why I said I should have stood up for myself all those years ago. Maybe a dose of her own medicine would have showed her how ridiculous she was being. Who knows. Maybe it wouldn't have done a thing. I just honestly can't believe someone can be so self absorbed and narcissistic. It's like my brain refuses to believe that it's true. If she came to me and said "honey I feel left out because you didnt include me..." I would immediately say *"oh I'm sorry I honestly wasn't even trying to do that.*". It's so strange to me that her response is with hostility and defense.
> 
> I will try what you and my IC says, but in the meantime, what about this little argument? How to fix it?


Correct, that is how a non-narcissist who is approached with reasonable concern reacts. ... With empathy and amends.


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Correct, that is how a non-narcissist who is approached with reasonable concern reacts. ... With empathy and amends.


what do you think BL? Should I attempt to break the silence after this bday party argument? And what to even say? She's not going to break the silence. This is what she does.


----------



## jld

I would use active listening. Are you familiar with it?

Approach her as if she were a scared little bunny--with gentleness, calmness, and patience. Do not go to her with your needs, but seek to understand hers.

You were so good at taking charge of the situation last weekend. Reflect on what you did, and how and why you were successful. Draw on that.


----------



## Cynthia

Asking for or demanding any change from your wife will be ineffective and, based on past responses, she will get angry. There is no point in asking, demanding, or expecting anything from her. It won't help. You will be more frustrated and angry than you are now. It will continue to build. Work only on yourself and how you behave. That is all you can do to make things better for you. I suggest you read the books on codependency that I recommended and linked to.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> what do you think BL? Should I attempt to break the silence after this bday party argument? And what to even say? She's not going to break the silence. This is what she does.


If it were me.. I would make it VERY clear that she was out of line and that her continued lack of respect and neglect is destroying this marriage. I would tell her that given the high level of chronic disrespect and neglect, that you will no longer live long term in this environment. That you are giving her one shot to make significant changes in her attitude and behavior by the end of April or you will be separating. And if by July 4th she hasn't fixed her severe lack of consideration and respect for you, then she will be choosing to risk divorce with you. 

Playtime would be over....


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> She literally can't stop herself from losing her cool 5 seconds into any convo if MC isnt present to explain to her that my feelings are valid and that I'm not attacking her at all, just explaining my experience.


So what are you doing in YOUR IC to learn how to counteract her ridiculous 'losing her cool' in 5 seconds?

Remember, she can't 'lose her cool' if you aren't still in the same room.

This is on YOU.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> I CAN make changes that are true to me, and the truth is that I AM a masculine guy deep down, but that guy has been absolutely annihilated by her rage over the last 8 years. I am so pissed at myself that I didn't yell back at her and walk the F out all those years ago when she lost it on me. I hate that I was so scared. I wish I knew better.


So what's stopping you from walking out now?


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> So what's stopping you from walking out now?


our little baby. and hope....hope that somewhere under all her anger and rage is the girl I fell in love with.


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> So what are you doing in YOUR IC to learn how to counteract her ridiculous 'losing her cool' in 5 seconds?
> 
> Remember, she can't 'lose her cool' if you aren't still in the same room.
> 
> This is on YOU.


Im learning not to let it get me as down as it used to. Tonight I went out with a friend after this stupid blowup. It was nice to get away. However, your point about leaving the room isn't easy when it's ME bringing up something that SHE did that was hurtful. I am initiating dialogue so she understands that she was hurtful. Leaving the room only gives her what she wants....avoidance of the topic.


----------



## cinnabomb

jld said:


> I would use active listening. Are you familiar with it?
> 
> Approach her as if she were a scared little bunny--with gentleness, calmness, and patience. Do not go to her with your needs, but seek to understand hers.
> 
> You were so good at taking charge of the situation last weekend. Reflect on what you did, and how and why you were successful. Draw on that.


Really tried this. Told her I felt hurt and didn't attack her. Told her I felt left out. She still lost her cool, snapped and left. Even THEN I tried to squash it and on my way out to meet a friend I looked at the decorations she made and said "these look nice" and she was super rude still, as if I did something wrong and said "k, whatever". So unbelievably self-absorbed and rude. No clue that SHE was the one who hurt ME and even still I give an olive branch.....and it din't work. So **** it. Why do I try?


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> If it were me.. I would make it VERY clear that she was out of line and that her continued lack of respect and neglect is destroying this marriage. I would tell her that given the high level of chronic disrespect and neglect, that you will no longer live long term in this environment. That you are giving her one shot to make significant changes in her attitude and behavior by the end of April or you will be separating. And if by July 4th she hasn't fixed her severe lack of consideration and respect for you, then she will be choosing to risk divorce with you.
> 
> Playtime would be over....


I respect that you would do this, but if I can be honest...it is to no avail. She is so unbelievably delusional and self-absorbed that none of this would have the slightest impact. She would sit there and berate me on how it is all ME and not her that is the problem and yell 'FINE THEN LEAVE SEE IF I CARE." Thats the type of person she is. She has killed the sweet girl inside her and become so cold its hard to put into words. Dont forget she is a very high paid hollywood executive...you cant imagine the narcissism and ego on a person like that. Its unfathomable to a normal person.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> I respect that you would do this, but if I can be honest...it is to no avail. She is so unbelievably delusional and self-absorbed that none of this would have the slightest impact. She would sit there and berate me on how it is all ME and not her that is the problem and yell 'FINE THEN LEAVE SEE IF I CARE." Thats the type of person she is. She has killed the sweet girl inside her and become so cold its hard to put into words. Dont forget she is a very high paid hollywood executive...you cant imagine the narcissism and ego on a person like that. Its unfathomable to a normal person.


Trust me... I've seen this kind of Narcissism up close and personal. I have seen the fits a full raging Narcissist can throw in an effort to control me. It can look like the world is ending, but frankly I wouldn't give a [email protected] I view them as a spoiled brat and they can pitch a fit all they want. It isn't about them anymore. Its about me now and that I am no longer accepting that behavior in my space. If she wants to remain in my space she can act accordingly, otherwise if she cannot refrain from her choice of abuse and neglect she will no longer be in my space. I wouldn't care if she pitches a fit, I would fully expect it and hold my ground. She would be put on notice that her days of abusing me are coming to an end. And she has a very short time left to decide what to do about it since you have been gracious enough to let her abuse you for the past five years. 

Thats just my style of dealing with abusive brats of this proportion. I'm fair and give them one shot to fix it, after that I'm done.

You'll be surprised how fast someone will lay down abusive behavior when they realize they truly love you.

And hey... No worries if you aren't ready to go that drastic. 

I would just already be done with this behavior if I were in your shoes. 

Up to you which path you want to be on. My choice would be out the door. But, I've gotten to that point in my life that abusers get put on an extremely short leash if they get put on one at all. . You'll get there. You might not ever be that hardlined about it, but typically after waking up to long term abuse, people tend to have MUCH lower tolerance for it going forward. My focus wouldn't be keeping her, my focus would be making HER decide which behavior she chooses, the kind that will kill the marriage or the kind that keeps it alive with me. And yes, she will pitch a hissy with you pitting your foot down. Too bad little girl. Its time to grow up and learn how to be a compassionate wife. Thats the priority, not this job.

Your style may end up being totally walking out without giving her a shot to fix it. I think you are still in the mode of thinking that her behavior is your responsibility and its just not. Its ok to lay that responsibility down. Your load is already heavy enough. Let her carry her own emotional weight and learn to be kind with it. My first step would be to put my foot down on the abusive behavior and if she chooses not to fix it, thats on her, not you.

Just my thoughts on it :nerd:

Her license to abuse me would get revolked.


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> Really tried this. Told her I felt hurt and didn't attack her. Told her I felt left out. She still lost her cool, snapped and left. Even THEN I tried to squash it and on my way out to meet a friend I looked at the decorations she made and said "these look nice" and she was super rude still, as if I did something wrong and said "k, whatever". So unbelievably self-absorbed and rude. No clue that SHE was the one who hurt ME and even still I give an olive branch.....and it din't work. So **** it. Why do I try?



Cinna, I hear your frustration. It must be very hard to be the calm, steady, non-reactive one in your situation. And yet I think it is the most reliable way to start healing the relationship.

For example . . . 

Do you go to a frightened little bunny and tell her how much she scared you? Or do you realize she is in no position to reassure you, and that you will need to be the one reassuring her?

You are looking through your own eyes, cinna. You need to look through hers if you are the leader. What if she would write the same paragraph you wrote above, but with her as the hurt one?

The "these look nice" comment was a start. I think following it up with, "You tried to do something nice for our daughter, and I responded with my own hurt about it. That must have felt like another attack to you," could be an opening.

An understanding, non-defensive response to her could be a repair attempt, what Gottman says is so important in restoring relationships.


----------



## bfree

Actions, not words. Let her talk. Let her know you're listening. But then you do....don't ask, do. She starts to plan the birthday party. Take over and take charge. She yells, walk out of the room. Stop being concerned with her emotional turmoil and concentrate on your emotional stability. Let her rage and shout and fuss and all of that. You realize that in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. All that matters is you being the rock. Don't let her instability destabilize you. In the end we all make our own choices. If you lead and she chooses not to follow then that's her choice and she'll get left behind. Choose your path, walk your ground and let nothing stop you.


----------



## bfree

Oh and stop telling her how hurt you are. She's not listening right now. If you are too hurt to be with her then leave. If you want to stay in this marriage then take the actions necessary to make it the best marriage you can make it. If your wife does not eventually follow you down this path then the marriage will end organically. Right now you're in a tug of war with your wife. You're pulling with all your might because you're afraid you both will fall if you lose. Let go of the rope. Walk away from the game and plot a new course for yourself and for your wife if she chooses to follow you. Understand that the tug of war game is really you trying to control her. And the rope represents codependency. You're not a child anymore. Walk away from the playground.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> Oh and stop telling her how hurt you are. She's not listening right now. If you are too hurt to be with her then leave. If you want to stay in this marriage then take the actions necessary to make it the best marriage you can make it. If your wife does not eventually follow you down this path then the marriage will end organically. Right now you're in a tug of war with your wife. You're pulling with all your might because you're afraid you both will fall if you lose. Let go of the rope. Walk away from the game and plot a new course for yourself and for your wife if she chooses to follow you. Understand that the tug of war game is really you trying to control her. And the rope represents codependency. You're not a child anymore. Walk away from the playground.


And if she follows you to your new playground and brings her abusive attitude with her, get her out of your new space. There just comes a time to tell people, you know what you cannot be in my space behaving that way. You cant jump from space to space to space continually running. You have to claim new ground and the make a stand on it.


----------



## bfree

Cinn, you mentioned in one of your earlier posts that it bothers you when your wife comes home from work, puts on headphones and listens to music ignoring everything else. Want to know how I'd handle that? I'd give her a few minutes to settle down. Then I'd go over to her and start rubbing her shoulders a bit. Touch is a bonding action that causes oxytocin to be released. Then after a few minutes I'd give her a little kiss on the top of her head (more oxytocin) and say "let's go watch tv together and cuddle on the couch." Notice I didn't ask. I suggested. If she chooses to join me then great. If not then I go to the couch without her. Don't sulk. Don't walk away in a huff. Remember she can sense your body language. And make sure you do exactly what you suggested. Don't change your plans because she said no. Then make sure to put on a show that you know she'd like and let her see you enjoying your time without her.


----------



## LongWalk

As you have explained from the very beginning, too much of your wife's social affirmation comes from work and others. She has not been receptive to your feelings. She doesn't need your affirmation. You are an inconvenience to whom she is tied by marriage and co-parenting.

The solution is for you to become independent for as long as she controls your happiness, you are in a dependent position.

Stop considering your child in the context of your relationship to your wife. She is not taking the best interests of your child into account. So don't allow the best interests of your child to become a blank check for her to control you.

Restoring your wife to whomever she once was is a futile pursuit. While it is possible that person can grow in their understanding of self – she can do this even if she has narcissistic characteristics – you cannot control this process. Ironically, as long as you express your hope to her, you affirm that she need not change.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> Cinn, you mentioned in one of your earlier posts that it bothers you when your wife comes home from work, puts on headphones and listens to music ignoring everything else. Want to know how I'd handle that? I'd give her a few minutes to settle down. Then I'd go over to her and start rubbing her shoulders a bit. Touch is a bonding action that causes oxytocin to be released. Then after a few minutes I'd give her a little kiss on the top of her head (more oxytocin) and say "let's go watch tv together and cuddle on the couch." Notice I didn't ask. I suggested. If she chooses to join me then great. If not then I go to the couch without her. Don't sulk. Don't walk away in a huff. Remember she can sense your body language. And make sure you do exactly what you suggested. Don't change your plans because she said no. Then make sure to put on a show that you know she'd like and let her see you enjoying your time without her.


In my situation, I did this being sweet and affectionate with healthy detachment until I came to the realization that the underlying attitudes were so severe that this had very limited effect. It works better now AFTER his hard attitude adjustment. This is a piece of the puzzle, just not the whole puzzle. Plus he has already done this. She needs to be rocked back on her heels. I think one of the problems is Cinn has no leverage and is why he is hesitant to ask for the attitude adjustment, but I think he'll find his voice and leverage soon. He's getting there.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

LongWalk said:


> As you have explained from the very beginning, too much of your wife's social affirmation comes from work and others. She has not been receptive to your feelings. She doesn't need your affirmation. You are an inconvenience to whom she is tied by marriage and co-parenting.
> 
> The solution is for you to become independent for as long as she controls your happiness, you are in a dependent position.
> 
> Stop considering your child in the context of your relationship to your wife. She is not taking the best interests of your child into account. So don't allow the best interests of your child to become a blank check for her to control you.
> 
> Restoring your wife to whomever she once was is a futile pursuit. While it is possible that person can grow in their understand of self – she can do this even if she has narcissistic characteristics – you cannot control this process. Ironcially, as long as you express your hope to her, you affirm that she need not change.


Very accurate. He can only control what he allows in his space and his own behavior. The rest is her choice. She can choose destruction or construction. He can't do that part for her, but he can let her no he is no longer interested in her destructiveness. And give her the timeframe by which he will remove himself from it if she continues to choose chronic destruction.


----------



## Cynthia

bfree said:


> Cinn, you mentioned in one of your earlier posts that it bothers you when your wife comes home from work, puts on headphones and listens to music ignoring everything else. Want to know how I'd handle that? I'd give her a few minutes to settle down. Then I'd go over to her and start rubbing her shoulders a bit. Touch is a bonding action that causes oxytocin to be released. Then after a few minutes I'd give her a little kiss on the top of her head (more oxytocin) and say "let's go watch tv together and cuddle on the couch." Notice I didn't ask. I suggested. If she chooses to join me then great. If not then I go to the couch without her. Don't sulk. Don't walk away in a huff. Remember she can sense your body language. And make sure you do exactly what you suggested. Don't change your plans because she said no. Then make sure to put on a show that you know she'd like and let her see you enjoying your time without her.





Blossom Leigh said:


> In my situation, I did this being sweet and affectionate with healthy detachment until I came to the realization that the underlying attitudes were so severe that this had very limited effect. It works better now AFTER his hard attitude adjustment. This is a piece of the puzzle, just not the whole puzzle. Plus he has already done this. She needs to be rocked back on her heels. I think one of the problems is Cinn has no leverage and is why he is hesitant to ask for the attitude adjustment, but I think he'll find his voice and leverage soon. He's getting there.


I think he needs to start with bfree's recommendation first, then try it until it either obvious that it's working or obvious that it's not working. If it's working, then great, problem solved, but if not, it's time to move onto a more radical move. Then I would recommend something more in this lines of this: 




Blossom Leigh said:


> Trust me... I've seen this kind of Narcissism up close and personal. I have seen the fits a full raging Narcissist can throw in an effort to control me. It can look like the world is ending, but frankly I wouldn't give a [email protected] I view them as a spoiled brat and they can pitch a fit all they want. It isn't about them anymore. Its about me now and that I am no longer accepting that behavior in my space. If she wants to remain in my space she can act accordingly, otherwise if she cannot refrain from her choice of abuse and neglect she will no longer be in my space. I wouldn't care if she pitches a fit, I would fully expect it and hold my ground. She would be put on notice that her days of abusing me are coming to an end. And she has a very short time left to decide what to do about it since you have been gracious enough to let her abuse you for the past five years.
> 
> Thats just my style of dealing with abusive brats of this proportion. I'm fair and give them one shot to fix it, after that I'm done.
> 
> You'll be surprised how fast someone will lay down abusive behavior when they realize they truly love you.
> 
> And hey... No worries if you aren't ready to go that drastic.
> 
> I would just already be done with this behavior if I were in your shoes.
> 
> Up to you which path you want to be on. My choice would be out the door. But, I've gotten to that point in my life that abusers get put on an extremely short leash if they get put on one at all. . You'll get there. You might not ever be that hardlined about it, but typically after waking up to long term abuse, people tend to have MUCH lower tolerance for it going forward. My focus wouldn't be keeping her, my focus would be making HER decide which behavior she chooses, the kind that will kill the marriage or the kind that keeps it alive with me. And yes, she will pitch a hissy with you pitting your foot down. Too bad little girl. Its time to grow up and learn how to be a compassionate wife. Thats the priority, not this job.
> 
> Your style may end up being totally walking out without giving her a shot to fix it. I think you are still in the mode of thinking that her behavior is your responsibility and its just not. Its ok to lay that responsibility down. Your load is already heavy enough. Let her carry her own emotional weight and learn to be kind with it. My first step would be to put my foot down on the abusive behavior and if she chooses not to fix it, thats on her, not you.
> 
> Just my thoughts on it :nerd:
> 
> Her license to abuse me would get revolked.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> Im learning not to let it get me as down as it used to. Tonight I went out with a friend after this stupid blowup. It was nice to get away. However, your point about leaving the room isn't easy when it's ME bringing up something that SHE did that was hurtful. I am initiating dialogue so she understands that she was hurtful. Leaving the room only gives her what she wants....avoidance of the topic.


Doesn't mean you have to stop bringing up topics. Bring them up and if she doesn't escalate, keep talking. If she does, leave. Then bring it up again later.


----------



## Cynthia

I don't think you should bring anything up at all. Change your behaviors, so she has something positive to respond to. If she treats you badly, tell her to stop, and if she doesn't leave the area. It's not terribly complicated. Read the books on codependency. They will help you.


----------



## cinnabomb

Thanks for all this constructive advice. Sometimes I'm not sure WTF I'm doing and if I'm making progress or spinning my wheels. 

BL, I appreciate your advice and wish that I had the strength to say that. Actually, I wish I knew that saying that would result in a change in her, because then I WOULD say it, but deep down, I think she has become so self sufficient (emotionally, etc), and is so convinced of her perfection, that she would respond with "Are you kidding, I'm not the problem, you're the problem. I'm not giving in to your demands. Go ahead and leave."

It's sad to write that down, knowing that my partner of 15 years wouldn't fight for me, but I think it might be true. I could be totally wrong. You might be right in that she might wake the F up and try to show me she cares. But there have been a few times where she coldly said in the last few months "well, then maybe we should just call this what it is (as in divorce, etc)". I couldn't believe how nonchalant and cold she was when she said it, as if it's just a parking ticket to write off. It gave me the feeling that she has already prepared and planned for it (mentally anyways). 

Do I want to be with someone like that, who doesn't love me? Of course not. I can't make her love me. I can be MORE lovable, likeable, etc, but I can't make her truly love me if she doesn't. I think a lot about what life would be like if we parted. I''d have to get another apartment. It would have to be in the same neighborhood so I can see baby a lot. I'd run into her a lot and that would be super awkward. I'd have to find some new friends. I'd be alone a lot, in my house, drinking wine, listening to 90s R&B and looking at old pictures and crying like a little baby. Sounds pretty awful. 

But then again, I wouldn't be living in so much pain, fear, torment, walking on eggshells, feeling neglected and ignored and unappreciated. And I wouldn't ever have to put up with abuse again, knowing I could walk away from anything in the future. (It's obviously much harder when you are vested in a marriage with a baby). All things I think about. 

But I'm getting ahead of myself. back to us. I agree with you guys about creating and generating some more positivity. And the truth is, most of the time when I reach out, she IS receptive. However, it's not really in a totally committed way. It feels really awkward and cold, as if she is just "checking it off the list", when she gives me a quick hug back. It's always like a 2 second hug and then like a pat like "ok there you go. I gotta go now." It's annoying and often more hurtful than just not interacting at all. I've even tried and said "let's cuddle a bit more", but she is super lazy about anything "giving." Her idea of cuddling is just laying on me and not moving. Literally not moving. Wasn't always like that. And if I complain like "can you hug me too, or snuggle, etc", when I sound needy and sometimes she snaps and gets mad like "What? I'm cuddling, what else do you want. Stop complaining, god.". 

It's hard to explain all the details of the neglect and abuse. Like I said, if it were her walking in the door and flying off the handle, I'd be out of here. It's more subtle stuff usually. Like ignoring me, putting zero effort into anything for me or us, and not showing any actions of care. I don't think she has asked me if I've eaten even once in 10 years. She just takes care of herself usually. And then there's sex. lack of anyways. Well, I have a strong libido and I am BEYOND tired of being sexually frustrated. But I don't know what to do about this either. The truth is, it's hard for me to be playful and fun and flirty right now because I am still hurt and she will do something hurtful almost daily. So I'm like WTF what's the point of trying???

Even after all this, this morning I called her in and said "do you wanna talk?" I explained that I was trying to express that I felt left out with her decisions and non-communication. Instantly she had a harsh tone and threw it back on me and said "I felt like I was being attacked and that you didn't want to get involved and you didn't even clearly tell me you felt left out." It's ALWAYS thrown back at me. But that's fine, this time because maybe there was some truth to it....more likely just a miscommunication. So I said "well then I guess we both have things to apologize for". And we both did. I sort of had to do it because she would go on ignoring me for days at a time over something so insanely small, and our babys bday is tomorrow and I don't want to live like this. This is why I ALWAYS apologized in the past...to just get it done and move on from the negative mood, because it affects me more than her. 

I'm rambling I think. Hope this is making more sense. I guess what it boils down to is this: I can reach out more, be more positive, etc, and it WILL result in more positivity from her as well. But without fail, there will be tons of little arguments, as most couples have (but even more so with someone who is really self-absorbed and bossy), and the truth is, she is incapable of talking through an argument in a calm and productive way. Her rage and aggression always gets the best of her. And I feel like that is the true test of whether a relationship has what it takes to last. If I am not allowed to say ANYTHING to her that is critical, or a request, or give an opinion that she doesn't like, or voice my hurt or frustration or needs and wants, well then we don't really have a freaking chance do we??? Thoughts?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

No, you dont have a chance because the authentic stuff is left in silence.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And you know what, I think you are right about how she would respond because your wife is just like my mother. The reason it took me SO long to stand up to her is because she had threatened to cut me out of the family ever since I was a preteen. I knew when the day came that I told her I had had enough, she would deliver on that promise. I didn't stand up to her until I was 39. And she did exactly that. Ruptured our entire family in 2009 of which we are still recovering. My mother did not respond to me having enough, but my H did. 

So I know exactly the path you are facing. I'm just sorry you are on it. It sucks.


----------



## bfree

Blossom, I've got a question, one that might spawn a valuable discussion for cinn. In another thread @EI said something that I've been thinking on quite a bit lately. She said that you have to meet people where they are, not where you'd like them to be. If you had to answer, where do you think cinn's wife is right now and how do you think cinn can meet her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> Blossom, I've got a question, one that might spawn a valuable discussion for cinn. In another thread @EI said something that I've been thinking on quite a bit lately. She said that you have to meet people where they are, not where you'd like them to be. If you had to answer, where do you think cinn's wife is right now and how do you think cinn can meet her.



I cannot advocate him meeting her in a chronic abusive state.

Thats where I believe she is.


----------



## bfree

I'm of the mind that her arguing and snapping at him is more a symptom of the imbalance that has developed in their marriage. The way I understand it cinn had more of a leadership role before his wife began her now career. I think she has necessarily had to become more aggressive and assertive in order to survive the day to day of her business. And I think she hasn't yet learned how to shut that mindset off when her work day ends. But I think she still wants and needs a husband to be the strength at home. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I get the distinct impression she doesn't want to be the decision maker outside of work but doesn't quite know how to turn that switch off. She wants cinn to still be that rock or as @jld put it, she wants cinn to be her leader. I agree with you that he should not tolerate her abusive behavior and @turnera's suggestion to walk away from her storms is a good one. But I think cinn can be that leader if he wants to be and in fact I think it pairs very nicely with no longer tolerating disrespect. To summarize, I think cinn's wife is having great difficulty in separating her work and personal lives. I think this is where she is. And I think if cinn meets her there he can work on being her strength and helping her rediscover her role as wife in their marriage.


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> I cannot advocate him meeting her in a chronic abusive state.
> 
> Thats where I believe she is.


youre probably right. Im just in denial about it. Tonight I needed a break from all the bossiness and went out with a fried to watch the game, and I came home to a house trashed. I mean trashed. And of course she isnnt going to clean it up, its on me because she could live in a pig stye and be fine. I dont believe in raising my baby in an unhealthy and dirty environment. And my parents and there as well and I said to them "OMG this place is a mess". My wife overhears and suddenly starts acting super awkward and talks rude to me and I say "why are you talking like that?" she says "you just criticized the home, like it's my fault." And talks rude and sort of snaps at me and then ignores me. 

I said "I was just talking about the state of the home, I have no idea who did what here."

She was rude again and I walked out. Honestly I'm so sick of her issues. I dont see how I put up with this for so long or how anyone would ever put up with her behavior, unless all they cared about was money, because they would have plenty of THAT. I guess there are a lot of people out there who care a lot about money but Im not one of them. So tired of all this.


----------



## turnera

cb, just so you know, you CAN have an amazing life with your daughter as a divorced dad. Millions of men do.


----------



## AliceA

cinnabomb said:


> youre probably right. Im just in denial about it. Tonight I needed a break from all the bossiness and went out with a fried to watch the game, and I came home to a house trashed. I mean trashed. And of course she isnnt going to clean it up, its on me because she could live in a pig stye and be fine. I dont believe in raising my baby in an unhealthy and dirty environment. And my parents and there as well and I said to them "OMG this place is a mess". My wife overhears and suddenly starts acting super awkward and talks rude to me and I say "why are you talking like that?" she says "you just criticized the home, like it's my fault." And talks rude and sort of snaps at me and then ignores me.
> 
> I said "I was just talking about the state of the home, I have no idea who did what here."
> 
> She was rude again and I walked out. Honestly I'm so sick of her issues. I dont see how I put up with this for so long or how anyone would ever put up with her behavior, unless all they cared about was money, because they would have plenty of THAT. I guess there are a lot of people out there who care a lot about money but Im not one of them. So tired of all this.


You did criticise her to your parents... you implied you were surprised by the mess and she's the only other person who lives there (let's not pretend the baby did it). You are surprised when she becomes embarrassed and lashes out?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> I'm of the mind that her arguing and snapping at him is more a symptom of the imbalance that has developed in their marriage. The way I understand it cinn had more of a leadership role before his wife began her now career. I think she has necessarily had to become more aggressive and assertive in order to survive the day to day of her business. And I think she hasn't yet learned how to shut that mindset off when her work day ends. But I think she still wants and needs a husband to be the strength at home. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I get the distinct impression she doesn't want to be the decision maker outside of work but doesn't quite know how to turn that switch off. She wants cinn to still be that rock or as @jld put it, she wants cinn to be her leader. I agree with you that he should not tolerate her abusive behavior and @turnera's suggestion to walk away from her storms is a good one. But I think cinn can be that leader if he wants to be and in fact I think it pairs very nicely with no longer tolerating disrespect. To summarize, I think cinn's wife is having great difficulty in separating her work and personal lives. I think this is where she is. And I think if cinn meets her there he can work on being her strength and helping her rediscover her role as wife in their marriage.


Sorry.. I didn't see this last night.

I would like to think this is where she is but I'm hearing something else. She wants to be accepted "as is." She is *only* sweet when he is appeasing her in that space and staying totally silent in expressing his needs. She sees no wrong in her own behavior as cinn is busting his a$$ trying to figure this thing out, bending himself into a pretzel to save this marriage. If he stopped trying to save it, she would be perfectly satisfied allowing him to occupy his butler role as she courts her new love, Hollywood. I agree she has not learned to balance her new love and her old one, I believe she doesn't want to. Cinn cannot live long term as merely an appeasing butler and yes man. She is delusional if she thinks he should and cruel to ask him to do that. His frustration about it is now spilling over so hard that I think its just a matter of time before he pulls the plug. Only then he might see some contriteness he can work with in her, but it may be too late by then. She's making a bed she doesn't think he'll ever let her lay in, but I think she's going to find out she's wrong. He didn't sign up to be the butler. He signed up to be her Beloved Husband and he should settle for no less.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Cinna, question... Was there ever a time when you could express your needs and her not blow up at you or has she always done that? I think she met more of your needs naturally in the early times of your marriage so this hearing your unmet needs may have never been tested until she took on this job. Was there ever a time she could hear an unmet need of yours, apologize and amend her behavior?


----------



## MyTurn

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sorry.. I didn't see this last night.
> 
> I would like to think this is where she is but I'm hearing something else. She wants to be accepted "as is." She is *only* sweet when he is appeasing her in that space and staying totally silent in expressing his needs. She sees no wrong in her own behavior as cinn is busting his a$$ trying to figure this thing out, bending himself into a pretzel to save this marriage. If he stopped trying to save it, she would be perfectly satisfied allowing him to occupy his butler role as she courts her new love, Hollywood. I agree she has not learned to balance her new love and her old one, I believe she doesn't want to. Cinn cannot live long term as merely an appeasing butler and yes man. She is delusional if she thinks he should and cruel to ask him to do that. His frustration about it is now spilling over so hard that I think its just a matter of time before he pulls the plug. Only then he might see some contriteness he can work with in her, but it may be too late by then. She's making a bed she doesn't think he'll ever let her lay in, but I think she's going to find out she's wrong. He didn't sign up to be the butler. He signed up to be her Beloved Husband and he should settle for no less.


I like this post 1000 x!!!Very well put Blossom.


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sorry.. I didn't see this last night.
> 
> I would like to think this is where she is but I'm hearing something else. She wants to be accepted "as is." She is *only* sweet when he is appeasing her in that space and staying totally silent in expressing his needs. She sees no wrong in her own behavior as cinn is busting his a$$ trying to figure this thing out, bending himself into a pretzel to save this marriage. If he stopped trying to save it, she would be perfectly satisfied allowing him to occupy his butler role as she courts her new love, Hollywood. I agree she has not learned to balance her new love and her old one, I believe she doesn't want to. Cinn cannot live long term as merely an appeasing butler and yes man. She is delusional if she thinks he should and cruel to ask him to do that. His frustration about it is now spilling over so hard that I think its just a matter of time before he pulls the plug. Only then he might see some contriteness he can work with in her, but it may be too late by then. She's making a bed she doesn't think he'll ever let her lay in, but I think she's going to find out she's wrong. He didn't sign up to be the butler. He signed up to be her Beloved Husband and he should settle for no less.


I'm very torn between this post and bfree's. There is truth to both, but which one is closer to the real truth??? I honestly don't know. I'm terrified that BL is right. I hope that Bfree is right. That's all I know. I think if we had started with IC and MC 5 years ago, we would stand a chance, but I am now competing with 7 years of the hollywood sociopath influence, so I don't know if she is "too far gone."

Both of you guys are really insightful and really seem to understand this situation, and it's not surprising that you have different ideas of what is going on, because as you all know, I'm confused as F too and really wish I knew. I don't know how much is manipulation and real, how much is authentic and a show, what is changeable and not. I guess none of us do and only MORE time will tell. 

So someone said I criticized her last night. No, I didn't. The place was a mess and it was either babys fault, wife's fault, parents fault, or a little of everyone. Wife was not in the room and I was actually complaining more to my parents for sitting around and not helping to tidy up, when they know better. 

So when wife snapped at me, I got up and left, aggravated yet again. She was cold and a bit rude actually when I left for dinner with my friend, but I am used to that (it still hurts), but when I came home to a mess and her attitude, I wasn't going to argue. I got up and went to bed. Well something interesting happened. She came in the room later on that night and sat down and said "I want to say I'm sorry that I snapped at you. I was being sensitive, thinking you were criticizing me and that's a trigger for me, etc". So she said sorry, I instantly forgave her and we watched tv. 

Now, if you have been following this thread, you already know that this NEVER happens, ever. I can count on one hand the times she has voluntarily said sorry in 15 years. I am being careful here, because I want to believe that this was some sign of progress, but I am torn because I also know she didn't want bad vibes for our babys bday today (and needed all my help to get everything done), and perhaps was just squashing the argument so that she could count on me to be there and do everything. 

It's a tricky thing, manipulation. In the past I would never even consider that I am being played, but now, I'm careful not to get too optimistic, so that I can see clearly what's going on. But even still it felt nice to hear her say that. The weird thing is, after saying it you would think she would sort of "make it up" to me, by at least cuddling in bed, but she layed 2 feet away from me. No touching. It was awkward. After awhile I said "want to hug" and she came over and laid on me and I tried to initiate a little kissing and snuggling, but she was being very weirdly distant, even pushing my hand away when I was trying to be playful and squeeze her butt. I was feeling a bit....amorous. But she rejected it, as usual. It's why I barely even try anymore. It's interesting though, that last night was one of the first nights in months I have wanted to be intimate with her, right after she shows some humility and sanity. Coincidence? I think not. 

I dunno, I just thought it was all a bit weird. Today we had our bday and me and her didnt meet or talk or touch one time during it. She schmoozed and I did the same with our friends. It just sucks that we are not connected in any way anymore. It's sad. 

Anyways, what do you guys think about all this?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Super interesting.

Let me first say, you have grown a lot. You are learning to be shrewed as a snake, but innocent as a dove. Keep your side of things rooted in authentic love and you will not go wrong. I'll share why in a moment.

You are dead on, she very well could be concerned that you wouldnt be the available butler for your Baby's birthday. Very wise of you to consider that possibility, which means her humility and affection was feigned to gain your cooperation. You are also correct that being observent over time will allow you time to discern this pattern if indeed it is her pattern.

If you remain rooted in love, that also means you know it does not serve her to allow her to remain in that condition, the chronic state of abusive manipulation. Her reaction tells me you may have more leverage than you thought you did to affect an ethical change to a non chronic abusive state. Question is... Is she pathological and you are just now seeing it or is this situational because of this job. If its situational, you've got a shot, if not, you don't. More homework for now...


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Super interesting.
> 
> Let me first say, you have grown a lot. You are learning to be shrewed as a snake, but innocent as a dove. Keep your side of things rooted in authentic love and you will not go wrong. I'll share why in a moment.
> 
> You are dead on, she very well could be concerned that you wouldnt be the available butler for your Baby's birthday. Very wise of you to consider that possibility, which means her humility and affection was feigned to gain your cooperation. You are also correct that being observent over time will allow you time to discern this pattern if indeed it is her pattern.
> 
> If you remain rooted in love, that also means you know it does not serve her to allow her to remain in that condition, the chronic state of abusive manipulation. Her reaction tells me you may have more leverage than you thought you did to affect an ethical change to a non chronic abusive state. Question is... Is she pathological and you are just now seeing it or is this situational because of this job. If its situational, you've got a shot, if not, you don't. More homework for now...


Thanks for the positive words and inut. I agree with you....I think we are in the "information gathering" phase right now....trying to discern what's real and isnt while trying not to spin out of control, and still try to be positive. By we I mean me and you guys lol. What's the phrase.... "cautiously optimistic". Something like that. Look, I'll take a positive atmosphere over a negative one for NOW, even if it ISN'T authentic, because at the very least it is better for my sanity and health and allows me to focus on the good things in my life, but that doesn't mean I am going to continue to live in a fake marriage with someone who doesn't truly love me or want to give me anything....I wont't. But for now, I don't know the truth so let's play it out and I will keep updating you. 

It's like a real life reality show. Not as exciting I guess. But it's real. Stay tuned.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Thanks for the positive words and inut. I agree with you....I think we are in the "information gathering" phase right now....trying to discern what's real and isnt while trying not to spin out of control, and still try to be positive. By we I mean me and you guys lol. What's the phrase.... "cautiously optimistic". Something like that. Look, I'll take a positive atmosphere over a negative one for NOW, even if it ISN'T authentic, because at the very least it is better for my sanity and health and allows me to focus on the good things in my life, but that doesn't mean I am going to continue to live in a fake marriage with someone who doesn't truly love me or want to give me anything....I wont't. But for now, I don't know the truth so let's play it out and I will keep updating you.
> 
> It's like a real life reality show. Not as exciting I guess. But it's real. Stay tuned.


Wise and reasonable. And I TOTALLY know how that feels. Hell in Summer 2013 I accepted six months of calm waters for my own sanity, THEN made my move for ethical change. Fuel your soul and prepare while you are observing and studying the best path. Take good care of yourself and detach from as much negativity as possible. Making these decisions from a good calm strong place is the best choice.


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Cinna, question... Was there ever a time when you could express your needs and her not blow up at you or has she always done that? I think she met more of your needs naturally in the early times of your marriage so this hearing your unmet needs may have never been tested until she took on this job. Was there ever a time she could hear an unmet need of yours, apologize and amend her behavior?


I forgot to answer this. Yes, in the past we had a normal and healthy relationship in that we could always express things to each other and we were both understanding, sympathetic, compassionate, and caring. I would tell her that I didn't like that she did ____, and she would say she is upset at me for ___, and we would talk it out and make up, always. She didn't want to lose me....I was her world, and she, mine. It was great, but that was a long time ago. 

Things fell off the rails when she began work in hollywood 7-8 years ago. She no longer cared about the consequence of her actions, and no longer took ANy responsibility for any of them. Everything was somehow my fault, even though I was the one who was hurting and trying to express that hurt to her the majority of the arguments we had. She didn't have much to hurt about, considering I did EVERYTHING for her and catered to her every need, always reliable, always upbeat, always taking what little scraps I got, rarely complaining until the pain of being alone became too unbearable. And When I expressed that....well the rage came out. 

Will we ever get back to that healthy state? I dont know. Truth is, she doesnt value me like she did back then. She NEEDED me. Now, she doesnt need or even want me. So why WOULD she check her attitude, behavior, or change? Right?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

There is no doubt in my mind she is at minimum behaving as an addict with this job.

If that is accurate, which us my stance from your first thread, it means she is situationally narcissistic.

Meaning the addiction has to be broken.

How? Good question, since a hardcore drug or alcohol aren't right in front on you to point to. Its HARD to point to behavior that causes internal adrenaline addiction and ask them to address it.But there are ways to do it and resources to tap into that raise awareness of these issues like Codepentents Anonymous, Celebrate Recovery, Adult Children of Alcoholics.

That would be a good place to focus your heart for a while. In the mean time tell her to stop disrespecting you in her tone and words. You don't deserve that kind of chronic treatment.


----------



## AliceA

cinnabomb said:


> I'm very torn between this post and bfree's. There is truth to both, but which one is closer to the real truth??? I honestly don't know. I'm terrified that BL is right. I hope that Bfree is right. That's all I know. I think if we had started with IC and MC 5 years ago, we would stand a chance, but I am now competing with 7 years of the hollywood sociopath influence, so I don't know if she is "too far gone."
> 
> Both of you guys are really insightful and really seem to understand this situation, and it's not surprising that you have different ideas of what is going on, because as you all know, I'm confused as F too and really wish I knew. I don't know how much is manipulation and real, how much is authentic and a show, what is changeable and not. I guess none of us do and only MORE time will tell.
> 
> So someone said I criticized her last night. No, I didn't. The place was a mess and it was either babys fault, wife's fault, parents fault, or a little of everyone. Wife was not in the room and I was actually complaining more to my parents for sitting around and not helping to tidy up, when they know better.
> 
> So when wife snapped at me, I got up and left, aggravated yet again. She was cold and a bit rude actually when I left for dinner with my friend, but I am used to that (it still hurts), but when I came home to a mess and her attitude, I wasn't going to argue. I got up and went to bed. Well something interesting happened. She came in the room later on that night and sat down and said "I want to say I'm sorry that I snapped at you. I was being sensitive, thinking you were criticizing me and that's a trigger for me, etc". So she said sorry, I instantly forgave her and we watched tv.
> 
> Now, if you have been following this thread, you already know that this NEVER happens, ever. I can count on one hand the times she has voluntarily said sorry in 15 years. I am being careful here, because I want to believe that this was some sign of progress, but I am torn because I also know she didn't want bad vibes for our babys bday today (and needed all my help to get everything done), and perhaps was just squashing the argument so that she could count on me to be there and do everything.
> 
> It's a tricky thing, manipulation. In the past I would never even consider that I am being played, but now, I'm careful not to get too optimistic, so that I can see clearly what's going on. But even still it felt nice to hear her say that. The weird thing is, after saying it you would think she would sort of "make it up" to me, by at least cuddling in bed, but she layed 2 feet away from me. No touching. It was awkward. After awhile I said "want to hug" and she came over and laid on me and I tried to initiate a little kissing and snuggling, but she was being very weirdly distant, even pushing my hand away when I was trying to be playful and squeeze her butt. I was feeling a bit....amorous. But she rejected it, as usual. It's why I barely even try anymore. It's interesting though, that last night was one of the first nights in months I have wanted to be intimate with her, right after she shows some humility and sanity. Coincidence? I think not.
> 
> I dunno, I just thought it was all a bit weird. Today we had our bday and me and her didnt meet or talk or touch one time during it. She schmoozed and I did the same with our friends. It just sucks that we are not connected in any way anymore. It's sad.
> 
> Anyways, what do you guys think about all this?


I get why she felt criticised. It's a sane response, not necessarily confined to only "narcissists" (since people have decided to label her). Lashing out is obviously not the answer, but it seems she figured that out on her own.

As for the rejection of you after the apology, she has signed the death warrant on your marriage if that's how it's going to continue. Neither of you will ever feel close or connected to each other when you're not having sex. Some people can see the link in their everyday interactions with their spouse, some cannot. I don't think she can see the link.


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## LongWalk

I don't understand what you meant by "trashed". Did she purposefully destroy things or simply make a mess?

You are still way too into trying to read your wife's moods at the micro level. 

Asking her to come and hug you is just needy. She needs to initiate for it to have significance.

You are just spinning your wheels IMO.

For you to change things you must be in another place. She must perceive you as masculine but I don't see this.


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## cinnabomb

breeze said:


> I get why she felt criticised. It's a sane response, not necessarily confined to only "narcissists" (since people have decided to label her). Lashing out is obviously not the answer, but it seems she figured that out on her own.
> 
> As for the rejection of you after the apology, she has signed the death warrant on your marriage if that's how it's going to continue. Neither of you will ever feel close or connected to each other when you're not having sex. Some people can see the link in their everyday interactions with their spouse, some cannot. I don't think she can see the link.


Not sure I would call it sane, but dont forget that this happens DAILY. It would be sane if it happened once in a blue moon, as a misinterpretation, and then we talked through it and went on with a normal relationship. It's not sane when she gets furious at anything and everyone who says anything she doesnt like. Every phone call she is on she is snapping and being very hostile, raising her voice, talking super rude and getting mad as well (usually talking to her biz partner). You add up this type of response to everything on a daily basis and it's pretty hard to live with to be honest. 

As for the place being "Trashed", there was junk, toys, trash (wrapping paper, boxes, etc), food, all over the floors, carpet. It's not worth rehashing again. I was talking to my parents at the time because my parents usually know to help me clean the place up (because wife rarely does). And you know what, I don't think it would be all that wrong to say to say, even to wife, "wow this place is a mess." There's nothing wrong with that. Why should I walk on eggshells? The place WAS a mess. That's a fact. If she walked in on me and it looked like that and said "wow this place is a mess", Id say "I know, its nuts. Want to help me clean it up?"

Not "WHAT THE HECK WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING ME JESUS!"

Anyways, I think you make a strong point about a sexless marriage. It doesnt work for me at ALL. I'm a man. I need sex. Maybe more than other men, even. Not getting it makes me really bitter and resentful and very very unhappy. getting it makes me happier and more positive, and yet when I have brought this up a number of times with MC, that "why can't we just try having regular sex for a week and see how it affects all the other parts of our marriage", she hasn't really taken it as an idea, saying that the lack of sex is just a symptom of our other issues. Perhaps she is right, but isn't it worth a damn shot, considering not much else has worked???

BTW I should add that 99% of the time even though I am hrny, I don't want to have sex with wife, because I am upset about yet another thing she did that was hurtful. I am finding it really hard to even be attracted to her because of these negative qualities. I'm sure that's why last night I suddenly wanted to be with her in that way, because she showed some sensitivity and sanity by apologizing. Really interesting....never thought my sexual desire for her would be driven so strongly by something like that....but it's been a long time and a lot of pain, so I guess it was a momentary reprieve from all the misery. Anyways, she claimed she was tired. That's usually what she says when I try. Sometimes she just says "oh honey, not now." And bear in mind I am only trying MAYBE once a month or 2. When the reality is I'd like to be having sex a LOT more, like nearly daily if I had my way


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## Blossom Leigh

I want to lay out why it is important to determine whether cinna is in a situational narcissist situation or a pathological narcissistic situation and how to do that... from my personal experience with the same choice... 

cinna is at the point where he is assessing whether or not this relationship is salvageable or if he should cut his losses and move on for his own sanity and well being. 

There are TWO areas that need to be considered to make that determination accurately. The first being do they both possess the *capacity* to do the work needed to salvage it. In other words, is there an presence of mental illness OR is there a missing aptitude needed for such work. The second area is whether or not both of them possess the *willingness* to do this work. 

When I was faced with this choice I had to pay close attention to what was reasonable and unreasonable and reactions to both. I really had to define what that looked like. I worked hard to make sure that I had reasonable requests/expectations presented in a reasonable manner to my H. If I didn't do one or the other, I was forgiving of less than stellar reactions from my H. If I was very reasonable in both and his reaction was off the charts unreasonable over a sustained period of time, then I knew the core of that problem was not in my camp. I took a long time to determine what I was dealing with and I had to clean up a lot on my side of the street to make SURE it wasn't me since it was very important to me to not unnecessarily end my family. What I was left with at the end of all that was truly realizing that my H needed professional help with what was left that was plaguing our relationship, his struggle to control his anger and negative attitudes.

For a while, I wasn't sure if he had the capacity because it was so intense/scary. I just don't know if I can ever fully describe what it was like here. But what I did know is it could not remain our status quo. It was seriously affecting me and our son. We were both scared to death. So, I acted, no matter how messy it was. I just made my move and went for it. Time was of the essence. That's when I told him we were no longer on a sustainable path, that professional help for his anger was required otherwise I would be forced to seek safety for me and our son. 

My H responded to that plea and really dug in, did the work, is still working with his men's support group now in its second year and we are doing great. omg... I cannot tell you how grateful I am he got help and our family is in tact and thriving. He gave his life to Christ in the middle of all of that

on the other hand... My mother.... The choice I faced with her had a twist to it. At it's core, the choice was the same... salvage the relationship or cut my losses. Her abuse was so long term and so devastating that multiple people, professional and non professional alike do not know how I ended up as sane and successful as I am. I for all intense purposes should be a druggie/prostitute/ on the streets and homeless... but alas... I'm not. the twist? I had to learn to stop giving hyper reasonable effort to hyper unreasonable requests. So, with her, about seven years ago, after becoming a mom myself, I knew I could no longer take her abuse in silence. She was a woman who could so severely cut you to the core with her words and play such sick psychological games, I cannot even describe it to you because it is just not in me. She was like that the entire time, since I was born. So I grew up in it and didn't know any different, until by the grace of God, He opened my eyes to it. 

I knew something was "off" with our relationship. My #1 question all those years was "why does she do me this way." I never understood her treatment of me. It was not normal mother daughter love, it was horrible and twisted and VERY hard to pinpoint. I was on a loop of asking "why" for years. But through a series of events I began to understand that what I grew up in was NOT normal and WAS *very* abusive. 

For my own sanity... I chose to put her on notice that I would no longer take it in silence, which was my standard M.O. given her propensity to make my world fall in around me with whatever leverage she could find to make my life a living hell. I KNEW what would happen when I did because the one thing she promised for decades was to cut me out of the family if I ever called her on the carpet. True to form, she did. 

I had no other choice. The sanity I did have, that my counselors marveled at, was now under threat given her behavior when I had my own child. I put her on notice of the coming change and invited her to join me in a new way of relating to each other... by her choice she walked away from me AND my four month old son. She refused to be held accountable for her treatment of me.

So, with one relationship I was in a situational narcissistic behavior pattern but the other one is pathological. One of my counselors labeled her a potential Malignant Narcissist in trying to help me make decisions surrounding that relationship. 

Is cinna's wife pathological narcissist... we cannot know that, but I do feel that label needs to be on his radar so that he can accurately assess his situation and either include it in his assessment or eliminate it. 

NO ONE has labeled her with something permanent. That is for cinna and their counselors to determine. Not every reaction she is going to have will be unreasonable or narcissistic, but there is enough of a pattern here to call that possibility into question.

Pay attention to when you are reasonable and whether she responds in kind or whether she responds at a chronically unreasonable manner. If you are unreasonable and she is reasonable, that's different. Eliminate anything on your side that is unreasonable. ONLY leave reasonable... then go from there.


----------



## turnera

I think she apologized for two reasons. First, you are getting fed up and she can sense it. You're finally starting to talk as though you may just up and leave, and I promise she can feel it.

Second, you're also reacting more like a man, not a mouse. Leaving to go to your friends'. Leaving to go to bed. Speaking up about the mess. These are things that FORMER Nice Guys do, because they're sensing their own worth and know what they're not willing to put up with, and they don't.

I've seen the same instantaneous reaction by women to former Nice Guys who finally stand up for themselves. That's why I say so often that women resent, even despise, weak men. We NEED you to act like a man, not a mouse.

Now that you are, she's responding. Like we've been telling you she would.

As for her laying away from you in bed, it's because your new persona is making her feel weird. She doesn't know who you are, you're not the butler she's turned you into in her mind, so she's wondering how she wants to be around you. YOUR actions are starting to change HERS. Plus, she apologized, and we all know how huge that is; so she was laying there, feeling humbled, yet pleased that you were man enough to require an apology, yet not used to that role at home...

And that's ok. She has a lot of processing to go through as you two continue to change and grow. Just role with it. And remember, the stronger you become, the more desirable you'll become, and the more likely you'll start getting sex. So don't take it personally when she rejects you; just shrug and go ok, maybe next time. And then try again.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I think she apologized for two reasons. First, you are getting fed up and she can sense it. You're finally starting to talk as though you may just up and leave, and I promise she can feel it.
> 
> Second, you're also reacting more like a man, not a mouse. Leaving to go to your friends'. Leaving to go to bed. Speaking up about the mess. These are things that FORMER Nice Guys do, because they're sensing their own worth and know what they're not willing to put up with, and they don't.
> 
> I've seen the same instantaneous reaction by women to former Nice Guys who finally stand up for themselves. That's why I say so often that women resent, even despise, weak men. We NEED you to act like a man, not a mouse.
> 
> Now that you are, she's responding. Like we've been telling you she would.
> 
> As for her laying away from you in bed, it's because your new persona is making her feel weird. She doesn't know who you are, you're not the butler she's turned you into in her mind, so she's wondering how she wants to be around you. YOUR actions are starting to change HERS. Plus, she apologized, and we all know how huge that is; so she was laying there, feeling humbled, yet pleased that you were man enough to require an apology, yet not used to that role at home...
> 
> And that's ok. She has a lot of processing to go through as you two continue to change and grow. Just role with it. And remember, the stronger you become, the more desirable you'll become, and the more likely you'll start getting sex. So don't take it personally when she rejects you; just shrug and go ok, maybe next time. And then try again.


I hope this is right. I HOPE her apology wasn't to keep her butler for the day. I'm glad he is being cautiously optimistic. Healthy perspective while he watches and waits. I HOPE you are right T!!


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## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> I think she apologized for two reasons. First, you are getting fed up and she can sense it. You're finally starting to talk as though you may just up and leave, and I promise she can feel it.
> 
> Second, you're also reacting more like a man, not a mouse. Leaving to go to your friends'. Leaving to go to bed. Speaking up about the mess. These are things that FORMER Nice Guys do, because they're sensing their own worth and know what they're not willing to put up with, and they don't.
> 
> I've seen the same instantaneous reaction by women to former Nice Guys who finally stand up for themselves. That's why I say so often that women resent, even despise, weak men. We NEED you to act like a man, not a mouse.
> 
> Now that you are, she's responding. Like we've been telling you she would.
> 
> As for her laying away from you in bed, it's because your new persona is making her feel weird. She doesn't know who you are, you're not the butler she's turned you into in her mind, so she's wondering how she wants to be around you. YOUR actions are starting to change HERS. Plus, she apologized, and we all know how huge that is; so she was laying there, feeling humbled, yet pleased that you were man enough to require an apology, yet not used to that role at home...
> 
> And that's ok. She has a lot of processing to go through as you two continue to change and grow. Just role with it. And remember, the stronger you become, the more desirable you'll become, and the more likely you'll start getting sex. So don't take it personally when she rejects you; just shrug and go ok, maybe next time. And then try again.


hmmm, really interesting stuff. VERY insightful. You may be right about some of this. Its hard to know for sure but yes I suppose in the past I would walk into the mess, look around with disdain, but not say anything. I dont know. Lets keep going and see. 

Well, heres an update. Had our party today. It was fine though we didnt interact at all, both busy schmoozing friends. She was very proud of all her decorations and stuff. It was nice but I often feel that she does it to appear like the "perfect mom" to other moms, to compete with them and their parties. Im more secure with myself in that I dont care, as long as everyone is having fun. But it doesnt matter much, if she enjoyed it. 

So later in the day, I was still feeling....amorous, and waited for the right moment and when we were laying in bed and finally had a break from baby, I said "We should have that quickie that we talked about yesterday". The night before she sort of said "im tired, but maybe another day". At first she was like, what, are you sure (my parents were playing with baby in the other room), and I was like yea Im sure. So we did. And it was nice overall though she was a bit awkward at first, I wont go into details. But its been awhile and was nice. 

After I noticed a big improvement in our dynamic, all the way until tonight. I felt closer to her and wanted to snuggle her, and I think she was a little nicer to me. I dunno....I think there is something to it. At least for me there is because sex is so important to me and really missing from my life. Still....Im being careful. The funny thing is, doing it once makes me want it a lot more. Perhaps part of it is physical, part is making up for lost time, but I think most is that I want to connect with her and nothing brings us closer than this. 

Im going to try to initiate sex again in the next couple days unless there is another blowup, and lets see what happens.


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## LongWalk

Read Bagdon's thread.

Read neuklas's thread.


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## turnera

Please don't get pushy about the sex. For now, only do it when the occasion presents itself. Two times in three days...I wouldn't do it. Let her see it's not all about the sex. Women are VERY wary of being used for sex.


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## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> Please don't get pushy about the sex. For now, only do it when the occasion presents itself. Two times in three days...I wouldn't do it. Let her see it's not all about the sex. Women are VERY wary of being used for sex.


You're probably right. I guess I am just so desperate to try and find a fix for all this that I thought this might help. It was the first nice day we have had in awhile, and admittedly, the first time I have felt loving to her in awhile. I dunno. It breaks my heart that I can't even say "I love you' to her anymore. I want to. I wish I could. But I can't lie. The way she has treated me doesn't really deserve that unconditional love I used to give her anymore. 

I'm dealing with a lot right now (marital issues, career change, the passing of my sibling, a baby), and sometimes I feel like I'm running and still can't keep up. Mail and bills haven't been touched in 2 weeks, the home is a mess, and I'm finally trying to pursue my passion in my career and life, and I keep losing steam with all of this other stuff. I wish I had the love and support that comes with a healthy and stable relationship. 

Today I'm feeling a bit off. I got in a heated argument with my parents about them being judgmental and stuff. They don't have a clue what's going on in my marriage, so it makes it so much tougher. They don't understand I'm already torn apart on the inside, and then to say something negative to me about my career change or whatever is just pushing me over the edge. I feel bad for raising my voice at them, but my dad is so stubborn and set in his ways he doesn't understand that my perspective and my opinion is as valid as his. It's frustrating, and then they were talking about moving here close to us, and I don't have a clue how to tell them that I can't handle their toxicity around me, PLUS the fact that my marriage is on the rocks. Worst part is they don't have a clue about the truth about my wife. They would blame me for the dissolution of the marriage. My dad is like that...always thinking I am some dumb foolish kid. Meanwhile I have always done the right thing and have worked my ass off for 15 years and saved more money than any one I grew up with. 

I'm also feeling a bit down about my relationship. Like, what are we really doing here? I guess I kind of DO want to put it out there to my wife, like 'this is what I need from you", so that at least she knows and its out there and we have a shot of moving in SOME direction. If she says "no", then at least I know. If she says "yes", well then we are moving in a real direction. Honestly, I'm scared. I'm terrified to put it out there. I guess because it feels like an ultimatum, and maybe I'm not ready for the answer that I feel is coming. 

If I were to guess, I'd say my wife is feeling a bit closer to me after yesterday, and that maybe we are in a better place, but I sometimes think that she is in total denial about our situation. Like she just thinks we are fine overall, that she doesn't need to change her behavior, and that I am the one who needs help. She talks about buying a new house together. I'm like, ok, WTF world is she living in right now?? Then again, I don't have a clue sometimes....sometimes her ability to be calculating and manipulative and cold at the same time is astounding and I'm in denial about that. I wish I knew who she really was under all this. I feel like she is hiding her true persona, or some parts of it. I feel like it's a side I would very much dislike....someone capable of heartlessness, lying, manipulation, etc. I hope that's not the case, but sometimes there are signs. 

What to do. What to do.


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## Blossom Leigh

Thats a LOT to deal with in one shot. 

Can you bring some people in to get the house caught up. Tell your parents to let you think on it and take some time to take a break. You've been working hard at this. It doesn't have to be constant effort.


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## turnera

Remember that every single one of us has one major agenda: to put ourself first. Even if that means subjecting ourselves to others to 'feel' we are putting ourselves first (by being a Giver). Whatever the situation, each person is unique. Has their own reasons and ways to feel they are protecting themselves, putting themselves first, caring about themselves. You know that your wife has used this new career as a way to 'feel good' about herself in a way she never expected. But it's addicting. And because you've been SO accommodating, SUCH a Nice Guy and just let her become the bull in the china shop, she's never had to stop her sprint to the top to question if it's the right thing.

But now you're doing it. I think that deep down, she knows she's being a *****. But you've gone along with it, you've made her life easy, you've enabled her, so she's never had to.

Now you're here, you're learning, you're voicing your concerns, you're dragging her to MC, and you're finally getting fed up enough that she can start to see it in your expressions, your words, and your actions - she's reaching the cliff. She didn't used to be this way, but you LET her get this way. And now it's your job to hold her feet to the fire and let her know it won't last. You are NOT her butler. You are her husband. And if she doesn't pull back and remember what it means to be a wife, she's going to find herself a divorcee. And that will entail a whole new ugly life with a full-time nanny, having to deal with an ex-husband, loss of prestige and income...

It's you who allowed this to happen. It's you who has to right the ship. But you didn't get here in a day. Or a week. And you aren't going to get your wife's head right, back the way it used to be, in a week, either. She will learn like all the rest of us, on our separate journeys to protect ourselves, take care of ourselves - by learning from consequences and from positive reinforcement. 

That's where you come in. GIVE her consequences for ****ty behavior. If she treats you like a butler, LEAVE. Go have fun with someone else, and leave her to bathe the baby, feed the baby, put the baby to bed, get up and feed the baby, dress the baby, take the baby to daycare...all because she treated you like sh*t. Come back the next day, rinse and repeat. If she treats you nice, she gets your help. If she acts like a b*tch, you leave again. Huh. Funny how that works. She will learn, eventually.


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## Blossom Leigh

LOVE it T!!


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## oneMOreguy

Yes.....tunera is providing excellant insight.


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## bfree

Turnera, great post and awesome explanation of consequences. Just one thought I'd like to share. You've offered a great description of "the stick." But what about the carrot? I'm somewhat concerned that there will be so much negativity. I feel like there needs to be times when she can feel good about their relationship. She has to see that there is a benefit to continuing the marriage doesn't she?


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## turnera

Well, he's already trying to provide the carrot, per previous comments, a la snuggling, smiling, good comments. It should be pretty obvious when things are going good vs. bad.


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## ThreeStrikes

The carrot comes when she demonstrates behavior that deserves positive reinforcement. 

People don't change until they are at the precipice. Suffering.

She's not even close.


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## bfree

I guess I'm once again thinking back to @EI and @B1. I realize that there was infidelity in their marriage but I recall that he had to become the leader in the marriage first, he had to set the tone and show her that their marriage was worth working for and once that foundation was laid it was only then that she emotionally reconnected with him. Yes the snuggling was very good but doesn't there have to be more. Can't he demonstrate loving support and guidance while also providing direction on how he needs to be treated and what her appropriate position in the marriage should be?

I recall years ago I had a very stressful job. I would come home and yell at my wife. But I really wasn't yelling at her, I just needed to vent and she was the one person in the world I trusted enough to open up like that to. After a while she and i talked and she said she knew my need to release that stress but it wore her out to be the focus of all that day after day. But she also didn't want me going to some bar or letting off steam somewhere away from her. So what we did was change the dynamic. I would start by saying "I'm going to yell but it's not at you. I love you enough to trust you with my feelings. Are you okay with me opening up?" We agreed that she could say no if she was having a bad day and I would find another outlet. But she never said no. All she needed from me was that little validation before I unloaded and she needed the choice to say no. That was enough. I'm just thinking that in addition to cinn demonstrating strength in showing her how he is to be treated he might also look for opportunities to give her in order to alleviate stress. Maybe once she's been able to unload that burden without guilt or judgement it might make the rest of the night go smoother. Just a thought.


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## turnera

Nothing wrong with providing loving support. As long as she's not being a b*tch.


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## Blossom Leigh

Was El's abuse the same as cinna's wife's abuse outside of the affair?


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## bfree

Blossom Leigh said:


> Was El's abuse the same as cinna's wife's abuse outside of the affair?


Outside of the infidelity I don't have any knowledge of abuse in the marriage except possibly for the neglect that B1 has admitted to. But infidelity is abuse taken to the extreme so I would say overall that there was more abuse related damage to overcome in their marriage as it pertains to cinn's.

Remember that we are only hearing cinn's version of events. And while I totally believe he is telling the truth as he sees it I'd suspect that if his wife were here we'd be getting an entirely different truth from her perspective. That's the one skill I found it hardest to learn. Not just empathy but truly being able to step outside the situation and see things from the other's perspective. I know that cinn says his wife tells and rages at him. But is she really raging at him or is it transference from the stress she faces before she comes home. If they can get to the root of that issue maybe all the other dominoes will fall into place.


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## Blossom Leigh

bfree said:


> Outside of the infidelity I don't have any knowledge of abuse in the marriage except possibly for the neglect that B1 has admitted to. But infidelity is abuse taken to the extreme so I would say overall that there was more abuse related damage to overcome in their marriage as it pertains to cinn's.
> 
> Remember that we are only hearing cinn's version of events. And while I totally believe he is telling the truth as he sees it I'd suspect that if his wife were here we'd be getting an entirely different truth from her perspective. That's the one skill I found it hardest to learn. Not just empathy but truly being able to step outside the situation and see things from the other's perspective. I know that cinn says his wife tells and rages at him. But is she really raging at him or is it transference from the stress she faces before she comes home. If they can get to the root of that issue maybe all the other dominoes will fall into place.


Yes, affair damage is horrendous, and so is long term chronic emotional abuse. But, I would not equate the two fully in how to handle them. You do have to get to the bottom of abusive attitudes for the greatest effect to happen on behavior. From my personal experience turneras idea of leaving when he gets butler treatment is spot on. Its a pattern interrupt and I love that she nailed it. One of her abusive attitudes is chronic lack of respect as well as entitlement to his butler services. Making a clear line in the sand that he will no longer accept that attitude towards him and the resulting behaviors is critical and just remove himself from that space when she engages him from that attitude. I did that a few times in my situation and it is highly effective. Other times I drove him out of my space for it.

He definitely needs to make sure to eradicate any abusive attitudes on his side. Sometimes abusive attitudes and deal breakers can actually be the same. He will really have to self assess well in that area. "Are my deal breakers really an abusive attitude?" It takes no longer accepting abusive attitudes from himself or from her to make the dominoes fall into place on behavior. That is precisely what we've done in our home that is working so well now that I really think about it. We have life stress now and life stress before, but the difference between now and before is abusive attitudes are gone. So I don't believe its stress transferrence in and of itself. If someone allows stress to spill over onto their spouse, I believe there is an abusive attitude lying underneath that. Fix that attitude and the stress transferrence stops.

Now he will have to be careful in determining when her reactions are normal, healthy and reasonable even if a little heated. Those are not abuse. She has a right to say what hurts her. Like when she expressed she felt criticized. If he never wants to hear that she is hurt by him, thats an abusive attitude. Its important to fix them on both sides. Question remains... Is it possible in this case.


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## turnera

Blossom Leigh said:


> From my personal experience turnera's idea of leaving when he gets butler treatment is spot on. Its a pattern interrupt and I love that she nailed it.


I am the butler in my house. My fault, I took on all roles lovingly at first and he just lapped it up, to the extreme. 

So removing myself when the butlering became dismissive is what my IC told me to do. She said it's fine to take care of him if that's what you want to do, but when he then treats me like crap when I do it, that's MY fault for staying. And that the only way he'll learn to respect me is by leaving. 

It's been shockingly effective. The rudeness has gone WAY down.

As my IC said, you teach people how to treat you.


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## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> I am the butler in my house. My fault, I took on all roles lovingly at first and he just lapped it up, to the extreme.
> 
> So removing myself when the butlering became dismissive is what my IC told me to do. She said it's fine to take care of him if that's what you want to do, but when he then treats me like crap when I do it, that's MY fault for staying. And that the only way he'll learn to respect me is by leaving.
> 
> It's been shockingly effective. The rudeness has gone WAY down.
> 
> As my IC said, you teach people how to treat you.


I had always done something focused on verbal lashing, but I also LOVE this idea of being absent if the ingratitude ramps up. Brilliant.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, affair damage is horrendous, and so is long term chronic emotional abuse. But, I would not equate the two fully in how to handle them. You do have to get to the bottom of abusive attitudes for the greatest effect to happen on behavior. From my personal experience turneras idea of leaving when he gets butler treatment is spot on. Its a pattern interrupt and I love that she nailed it. One of her abusive attitudes is chronic lack of respect as well as entitlement to his butler services. Making a clear line in the sand that he will no longer accept that attitude towards him and the resulting behaviors is critical and just remove himself from that space when she engages him from that attitude. I did that a few times in my situation and it is highly effective. Other times I drove him out of my space for it.
> 
> He definitely needs to make sure to eradicate any abusive attitudes on his side. Sometimes abusive attitudes and deal breakers can actually be the same. He will really have to self assess well in that area. "Are my deal breakers really an abusive attitude?" It takes no longer accepting abusive attitudes from himself or from her to make the dominoes fall into place on behavior. That is precisely what we've done in our home that is working so well now that I really think about it. We have life stress now and life stress before, but the difference between now and before is abusive attitudes are gone. So I don't believe its stress transferrence in and of itself. If someone allows stress to spill over onto their spouse, I believe there is an abusive attitude lying underneath that. Fix that attitude and the stress transferrence stops.
> 
> Now he will have to be careful in determining when her reactions are normal, healthy and reasonable even if a little heated. Those are not abuse. She has a right to say what hurts her. Like when she expressed she felt criticized. If he never wants to hear that she is hurt by him, thats an abusive attitude. Its important to fix them on both sides. Question remains... Is it possible in this case.


I dont know about the transference part for sure, but I think there is truth to it. She does get stressed at work, as it's not a great environment. I do think that she is bringing home a lot of that anger and frustration and then looking for a reason to unload it onto me. But she doesn't walk in the door and start yelling. It's not like that. It's more like she walks in and ignores me for a couple hours completely, and I'll be making dinner or whatever and try and talk to her and she ignores me 3x and I get annoyed at that behavior. So I'll call her out on it, and say "Honey, I keep trying to talk but you dont seem to be listening". And then she will flip her lid, "OKAYYYYYYYY IM BUSY, GOD, I HEARD YOU, ETC". That type of thing. Really rude tone and attitude for no reason. This is just one example. 

Another might be her doing something inconsiderate (like leaving a mess for me, pee on ground, etc). And when I bring it up she flips her lid. So the pattern is her doing something inconsiderate, me bringing it up, and her getting mad. She very rarely ever talks to me otherwise, so it's not like she is coming home belligerant. It's just this underlying level of anger, that comes out with nearly anything. She seems like she wants to live her life exactly how she likes, and not even talk or interact with me on any level sometimes. And if I call her out on it (not in a rude way, just saying ''I feel lonely lately, want to spend some time together", she gets defensive. 

Anyways, BL, to answer what I think you were saying, I actually love and appreciate when she shares her hurt with me, even if I am the cause. I am always gracious and listen, and really try my best to see her perspective and always make her feel ok after she shares. It makes me feel like she is human, and can have emotions too, because most of the time in the last 5-7 years she has been like a robot. I miss her coming home and crying a bit and saying "I had a bad day", or even "I felt hurt when you ignored me at the party when i was trying to talk to you that one time". I never get defensive. Honestly I miss that. She hasn't cried even one time in 7 years at home and she used to cry at everything...tv shows, commercials, etc. She just cut that part of her brain off. It's very weird. I miss seeing that sweet sensitive side of her. But she has cried in MC a bunch of times and I feel like it's a bit of manipulation, since she hasn't cried at home at all. When she does cry, I always come to her and comfort her (in the past).


----------



## turnera

Do you wash her clothes? Take her stuff to the dry cleaners?


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## bfree

I know I'm going against the grain a bit here but to me when she comes home and doesn't talk for a couple of hours, that sounds a lot like she's bottling up her stress. Then when you call her out on either that or something else that stress comes busting out at you. That's what I mean by transference. She needs to release that negative energy somehow. Maybe next MC you can discuss this with the counselor. Say that you believe a lot of her high intensity emotions are due to repressed stress. Ask what you can do to help her relax and purge that stress when she gets home. Ask the counselor to give your wife some suggestions on stress management. The second example you gave is a perfect opportunity to do what turnera and blossom are suggesting i.e teaching her how to treat you. Walk away until she can interact with you in a more composed manner. Imo if you demonstrate that you are not going to put up with disrespect while simultaneously are searching for ways to help her deal with stress, it shows that you're thinking of her well being in addition to your own. It demonstrates that there is a positive future ahead for the two of you.


----------



## turnera

I agree that you complaining is never going to get you anything good. You sound like a whiny baby based on what you said you say. ANY woman would snap at you for that. YOU can change how YOU respond.


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## ThreeStrikes

turnera said:


> I agree that you complaining is never going to get you anything good. You sound like a whiny baby based on what you said you say. ANY woman would snap at you for that. YOU can change how YOU respond.


So much so that she has developed one primary emotion towards CB:

Contempt

She's sick and tired of him.

Its a death knell for a relationship.

I have a feeling she has an endgame in mind, and is just biding her time. Sure, she'll go through the MC motions, give up some duty/pity sex, throw him a bone every now and them... but its all just part of her plan.

She has no reason to change. She likes herself. And she doesnt give a rat's a$$ about CB.


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## cinnabomb

ThreeStrikes said:


> So much so that she has developed one primary emotion towards CB:
> 
> Contempt
> 
> She's sick and tired of him.
> 
> Its a death knell for a relationship.
> 
> I have a feeling she has an endgame in mind, and is just biding her time. Sure, she'll go through the MC motions, give up some duty/pity sex, throw him a bone every now and them... but its all just part of her plan.
> 
> She has no reason to change. She likes herself. And she doesnt give a rat's a$$ about CB.


Im afraid you're right about this. But I'm hopeful that you aren't. BTW, I want to clarify that I am not "chronically complaining". My complaints are maybe 1x per 2 weeks or so, and even then they arent like "you did this wrong", they are usually just about me wanting time and intimacy with her and just being ignored. The rest of the time I am just going about with my life, taking care of things, working, playing with baby, etc. But the real connection is just missing. 

I am going to try the walk away thing again next time she snaps at me. Let's see what happens. 

We had MC today. MC is trying to get us both to see how we are "triggering' each other. And MC wants us to be able to talk through an argument in a healthy way. What MC doesnt seem to understand is that she is giving my wife way too much benefit of the doubt. She is totally incapable of taking responsibilty for her actions. (Which is why her saying sorry the other night was a shock....it's never happened, and makes me feel like it was manipulation). MC tells my wife, 'if you feel triggered, take a break and come back to it." But what she doesnt get is that she can take 500 breaks, but everytime she comes back to the conversation, she loses her shyit within seconds. EVERYTHING triggers her. My wife actually said "yea but when I take a break and come back to the conversation, he wants to continune to talk about the same thing and it makes me mad." WTF?? Of course I want to talk about the issue at hand. That's how we get past it.

I feel like this is a losing battle. Every argument I genuinely try to see my part in it, dont blame her and never say 'you started it", and try to apologize for what I have contributed to any hurt. She never does. In 7 years, she has not apologized first even ONCE or even given a sincere apology. She might say sorry, but in a sarcastic tone and rolling her eyes. This is narcissism at its core. She truly believes she did no wrong and always says 'you started it". How ridiculous is that to always say that?? 99% of the time, its started by a miscommunication that we both played a role in. But she wants to assocciate all blame to me. MC doesn't get it. Here is a typical argument:

Me: can we talk about something?
Her: (rolling eyes, sitting as far from me as possible, often with her back to me) okayyyyyyyy
Me: Could you sit a bit closer and look at me when we talk?
Her: NO NOT really, I dont feel like it. 
Me: Ok can you at least look at me. 
Her: FINE. 
Me: I didnt like how you snapped at me earlier. It was hurtful and not necessary. 
Her: Okayyyyyyyy. well, you started it. 
Me: How?
Her: Earlier in the day you had a tone when you asked me to help clean up babys toys
Me: Ok, I didnt know that I did that. I apologize for that tone. 
Her: K. 
Me: So....what about you?
Her: What about me??
Me: Well I told you that it was hurtful when you snapped at me. 
Her: Yea like I said, I was just responding to YOUR tone from earlier. You started it. 
Me: Ok. Well, that's not really fair to not take responsibility for your own actions and part in this. Maybe you did something before my tone earlier that was hurtful, but we can't keep blaming each other like that and not take responsibility. 
Her: Yea. Ok. Whatever. You're so perfect. 
Me: What?
Her: Im so sick of this. Im sick of you always criticizing me. 
Me: How is this criticising?? I am telling you that you did something hurtful and asking you to take some responsibilty. 
Her: YEA. WHATEVER. tssk. tsskk. 
Me: So......do you think you should apologize for that part?
Her: NO. (or occasionally 'K. sorry' while rolling her eyes and having her back to me)

Then she gets up and leaves in a huff, angrier than when we started and ignores me for the next day or two. And by the way, I talk in a calm and soft voice and the whole time she is loud and very abrasive. This is 99% of the arguments. You cannot get a narcissist to understand that she has a role in all this. Or that she is not "perfect". It's fking impossible and I'm so sick of trying. I am trying to get MC to see it, but I don't think she gets it, OR she is just trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. She is totally manipulated by my wife who is charming, and I don't think she believes me when i tell her that my wife has not apologized first in 7+ years, and always throws it back on me. 

So it this situational narcissism or permanent???


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> Do you wash her clothes? Take her stuff to the dry cleaners?


F no. We have a housekeeper. And to clarify, I'm not a "butler", but yes I do handle most of the family responsibilties, like buying things, occassionally cooking (much less nowadays), trying to keep home fairly tidy (she has been making the bed for about 2 months, which doesnt sound like much, but its a start, right?), mail, bills, cars, finances, etc.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> We had MC today. MC is trying to get us both to see how we are "triggering' each other. And MC wants us to be able to talk through an argument in a healthy way. What MC doesnt seem to understand is that she is giving my wife way too much benefit of the doubt. She is totally incapable of taking responsibilty for her actions. (Which is why her saying sorry the other night was a shock....it's never happened, and makes me feel like it was manipulation). MC tells my wife, 'if you feel triggered, take a break and come back to it." But what she doesnt get is that she can take 500 breaks, but *everytime she comes back to the conversation, she loses her shyit within seconds. EVERYTHING triggers her.* My wife actually said "yea but when I take a break and come back to the conversation, he wants to continune to talk about the same thing and it makes me mad." WTF?? Of course I want to talk about the issue at hand. That's how we get past it.
> 
> I feel like this is a losing battle. Every argument I genuinely try to see my part in it, dont blame her and never say 'you started it", and try to apologize for what I have contributed to any hurt. She never does. *In 7 years, she has not apologized first even ONCE or even given a sincere apology*. She might say sorry, but in a sarcastic tone and rolling her eyes.


Have you told the MC these two things? In front of your wife?

Why not?

And have you asked the MC for a separate session just for you?

btw, when we say butler, we mean the ATTITUDE of being the one who takes care of everything, does what she wants, makes her life comfortable. It's a mental thing.


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> Have you told the MC these two things? In front of your wife?
> 
> Why not?
> 
> And have you asked the MC for a separate session just for you?
> 
> btw, when we say butler, we mean the ATTITUDE of being the one who takes care of everything, does what she wants, makes her life comfortable. It's a mental thing.


I have told the MC these things multiple times and yes I have had private sessions with her. I have said it in front of wife as well, but MC jumps in when she senses anything being said thata will further "trigger" wife, which is literally ANYTHING. Wife simply can't handle hearing anything but "you are perfect." 

MC does not like to play favorites, and continues to treat us as "equally" responsible for everything. Its very frustrating. She just says "well its possible she is getting triggered by something from you, a tone, etc". I literally cannot talk any nicer than I already am doing in our arguments. And she is flying off the handle and snapping loudly and that's just fine? Its such BS. What if I resorted to yelling, eye rolling, and even name calling (as she has done to me so much in the past)???


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> Me: can we talk about something?
> Her: (rolling eyes, sitting as far from me as possible, often with her back to me) okayyyyyyyy
> Me: Could you sit a bit closer and look at me when we talk?
> Her: NO NOT really, I dont feel like it.
> Me: Ok can you at least look at me.
> Her: FINE.
> Me: I didnt like how you snapped at me earlier. It was hurtful and not necessary.
> Her: Okayyyyyyyy. well, you started it.
> Me: How?


This is where you lost it. When she said, "you started it," she blamed shifted and you took the bait. Any reasonable conversation was over right then and there. The problem is that she was rude to you. It doesn't matter who "started it." If she had a problem with you about something, she can talk to you about it, but right now you are discussing what she did that upset you. The conversation is not about what you may or may not have done to upset her. So she blame shifted, you took the bait, and she effectively changed the subject and put you on the defensive. Do you see how she did that?
For one thing, rather than waiting until later to talk to her about something that she did, deal with it on the spot. Call her on it immediately with something like, "Don't talk to me like that." If she then goes off on you, walk away. Do not engage in her blame shifting. That is how she is getting away with this. She puts you on the defensive.


----------



## turnera

> Its such BS. What if I resorted to yelling, eye rolling, and even name calling (as she has done to me so much in the past)???


She wouldn't keep you around because you wouldn't be the perfect patsy anymore.


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## cinnabomb

CynthiaDe said:


> This is where you lost it. When she said, "you started it," she blamed shifted and you took the bait. Any reasonable conversation was over right then and there. The problem is that she was rude to you. It doesn't matter who "started it." If she had a problem with you about something, she can talk to you about it, but right now you are discussing what she did that upset you. The conversation is not about what you may or may not have done to upset her. So she blame shifted, you took the bait, and she effectively changed the subject and put you on the defensive. Do you see how she did that?
> For one thing, rather than waiting until later to talk to her about something that she did, deal with it on the spot. Call her on it immediately with something like, "Don't talk to me like that." If she then goes off on you, walk away. Do not engage in her blame shifting. That is how she is getting away with this. She puts you on the defensive.


you are spot on and I will do that next time. She always resorts to blame shifting, even in MC. very frustating.


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> you are spot on and I will do that next time. She always resorts to blame shifting, even in MC. very frustating.


I'm sure she does. It works for her and no one catches it. Now that you can see what she's doing, she has lost that tactic. Does the marriage counselor let her get away with it?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> This is where you lost it. When she said, "you started it," she blamed shifted and you took the bait. Any reasonable conversation was over right then and there. The problem is that she was rude to you. It doesn't matter who "started it." If she had a problem with you about something, she can talk to you about it, but right now you are discussing what she did that upset you. The conversation is not about what you may or may not have done to upset her. So she blame shifted, you took the bait, and she effectively changed the subject and put you on the defensive. Do you see how she did that?
> For one thing, rather than waiting until later to talk to her about something that she did, deal with it on the spot. Call her on it immediately with something like, "Don't talk to me like that." If she then goes off on you, walk away. Do not engage in her blame shifting. That is how she is getting away with this. She puts you on the defensive.


Yep.


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## Blossom Leigh

Extremely disrespectful brat.


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## Cynthia

lol @Blossom Leigh

She is doing what works for her. The point is to stop falling into her traps and create a healthy environment, at least for yourself. She doesn't have to join you, but it sure would make things better for both of you. Keep working on healthy responses and see if she comes around over time. I also like @bfree comments about how she is probably filled with stress from work and comes home like a pressure cooker ready to explode. She needs to blow off steam somehow in a healthy manner. Do you know what works for her to do that or can you ask her what she does when she's stressed that helps her get it out and to feel better?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Lol... She wouldn't want to do that in front of me I'd eat her friggen lunch... Whew, there's nothing that gets under my skin faster than that bratty stuff right there.

Glad I could make you giggle @CynthiaDe


----------



## Celes

cinnabomb said:


> Me: can we talk about something?
> Her: (rolling eyes, sitting as far from me as possible, often with her back to me) okayyyyyyyy
> Me: Could you sit a bit closer and look at me when we talk?
> Her: NO NOT really, I dont feel like it.
> Me: Ok can you at least look at me.
> Her: FINE.
> Me: I didnt like how you snapped at me earlier. It was hurtful and not necessary.
> Her: Okayyyyyyyy. well, you started it.
> Me: How?
> Her: Earlier in the day you had a tone when you asked me to help clean up babys toys
> Me: Ok, I didnt know that I did that. I apologize for that tone.
> Her: K.
> Me: So....what about you?
> Her: What about me??
> Me: Well I told you that it was hurtful when you snapped at me.
> Her: Yea like I said, I was just responding to YOUR tone from earlier. You started it.
> Me: Ok. Well, that's not really fair to not take responsibility for your own actions and part in this. Maybe you did something before my tone earlier that was hurtful, but we can't keep blaming each other like that and not take responsibility.
> Her: Yea. Ok. Whatever. You're so perfect.
> Me: What?
> Her: Im so sick of this. Im sick of you always criticizing me.
> Me: How is this criticising?? I am telling you that you did something hurtful and asking you to take some responsibilty.
> Her: YEA. WHATEVER. tssk. tsskk.
> Me: So......do you think you should apologize for that part?
> Her: NO. (or occasionally 'K. sorry' while rolling her eyes and having her back to me)


Sorry, you're not going to like what I have to say but hey, feel free to ignore me. 

You come across as really whiny in this exchange. All over a harsh tone from her. If you make issues about every little small thing, I can see how your wife gets annoyed by it. It's not attractive for a man to complain so much. And it's not attractive to keep talking about how hurt you are, even if you are. I'll be blunt, most women aren't attracted to men who whine like that. Call it unfair, a double standard, whatever you want. It doesn't change that it's true. 

It goes back to my post about not sweating the small stuff so much. You both snapped at each other. It happens. No need for an entire discussion over it. If you make an issue out of every little thing that bothers you, your wife will lose patience whether your concerns are valid or not. 

I thought her sarcasm about you being so perfect also has a lot of meaning. You do try very hard to come across as if you're the perfect husband. Every post is about how great you are and how horrible she is. I haven't seen you take any accountability for any of your actions at all. Page after page, all you post about is how great and wonderful and patient you are and all the nice stuff you do, on and on. You are trying very hard to portray yourself as a saint and martyr. No one is perfect and I doubt very much your wife is as bad as you make her out to be without you also contributing in some way. 

You can go ahead and call me an idiot now. It doesn't change the fact that your actions are also pushing your wife away and causing her to lose attraction to you. If you want her to be closer to you, learn to let the little things go. 

I'm feeling like your need to be a victim is so great, your wife doesn't really have a chance at making you happy. She sounds like she's making some efforts and responding to you. Even had sex with you and apologized to you. And yet you're still trying to portray her poorly and make it out to be just manipulation. 

It's like how some women complain about a lack of romance. And then when their husbands start trying harder, they get mad at them because they had to spell it out and say it's only because they told them to do it. Instead of just appreciating that their husband loves them enough to try.


----------



## cinnabomb

CynthiaDe said:


> lol @Blossom Leigh
> 
> She is doing what works for her. The point is to stop falling into her traps and create a healthy environment, at least for yourself. She doesn't have to join you, but it sure would make things better for both of you. Keep working on healthy responses and see if she comes around over time. I also like @bfree comments about how she is probably filled with stress from work and comes home like a pressure cooker ready to explode. She needs to blow off steam somehow in a healthy manner. Do you know what works for her to do that or can you ask her what she does when she's stressed that helps her get it out and to feel better?


I'm trying, but still learning how and dont know everything. BTW this was just a typical "example" of an argument. I made up the part about the baby toys cleaning, usually, the argument is over much more hurtful stuff and there have been HUNDREDS of arguments like this. Repeatedly peeing on the floor and I keep stepping in it, showing up late to an important event where I needed her, repeated ignoring me, being on her phone the entire night on a date night, disrespecting me by name calling etc, yelling or being bossy, even tonight: My mother had made a big pot of food for us and left it on the stove.....I get home and shower and she gets home while I am in the shower, never says hello or asks if I ate, and ate the entire thing herself (and some to baby)! I said "you ate all of it? There was a lot in there and I wanted some." She was like "Oh there wasnt much, here do you want the last bite." 

Im just like WTF, I ALWAYS make sure she gets fed and half of everything in the house. I dunno....hard to get used to selfish behavior. I guess we are just different. She takes care of herself and baby, with zero concern about me. she does selfish stuff like this everyday and doesnt even cross her mind that I'm a living human being in this house. This happens daily. 

I've been doing some research on narcissistic personality disorder and I am convinced she has some of these traits. It's shocking actually, when I read down the list of "symptoms", probably 90% of them are her to a T. Its shocking. Both MC and IC also have repeatedly said how they can see how much changes I have made to try and make this work, but MC has not really said that to her. I mean....1 apology in 7+ years....that's barely progress and I'm still not sure it was sincere. I sent this sample argument to MC and she seemed a bit concerned about it, but then asked if wife would agree on the verbiage, and I said "highly doubtful." I have an excellent memory and wife has an admittedly poor one, and when she is raging she can literally forget and deny something she said 5 seconds ago. So without proof, I guess its my word vs hers all over again. 

Going to get a VAR and see if I can get some proof. But its like....what's the point? To try and prove to the MC the truth about what is going on? And then what??? Our MC is not the type who would ever say to her "honey I think you have some BPD and really need some therapy for it".


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, I prefer counselors who have a moral compass. The ones who make every last detail 50/50 are highly ineffective.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Who are Pathological Narcissists? Knowing about…: http://youtu.be/o7j2axIRja4

I think this guys work will help you assess fairly accurately what you are facing. 

My personal opinion... She is situationally narcissistic as a result of her addiction to her high powered job. That's why prior to seven years ago, she could take responsibility and apologize. But since the addiction to the high powered job that started seven years ago, she no longer takes responsibility for her behavior or apologizes except to manipulate, us all the maltreatment driving you nuts.

I'll leave it to you and your professionals to confirm or deny.

There is a book called Navigating Narcissistic predicaments that may help.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, I prefer counselors who have a moral compass. The ones who make every last detail 50/50 are highly ineffective.


Co-pay collectors.

Counselors are reluctant to diagnose someone with a cluster B disorder, because they are *behavioral* disorders and insurance won't cover it. Additionally, labeling a client in such a way usually results in losing that client, and their $. Because nearly all cluster B's insist there is nothing wrong with them. They blame others for their problems (victim mentality).


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ThreeStrikes said:


> Co-pay collectors.
> 
> Counselors are reluctant to diagnose someone with a cluster B disorder, because they are *behavioral* disorders and insurance won't cover it. Additionally, labeling a client in such a way usually results in losing that client, and their $. Because nearly all cluster B's insist there is nothing wrong with them. They blame others for their problems (victim mentality).


Well, there ya have it.


----------



## Chaparral

cinnabomb said:


> youre probably right. Im just in denial about it. Tonight I needed a break from all the bossiness and went out with a fried to watch the game, and I came home to a house trashed. I mean trashed. And of course she isnnt going to clean it up, its on me because she could live in a pig stye and be fine. I dont believe in raising my baby in an unhealthy and dirty environment. And my parents and there as well and I said to them "OMG this place is a mess". My wife overhears and suddenly starts acting super awkward and talks rude to me and I say "why are you talking like that?" she says "you just criticized the home, like it's my fault." And talks rude and sort of snaps at me and then ignores me.
> 
> I said "I was just talking about the state of the home, I have no idea who did what here."
> 
> She was rude again and I walked out. Honestly I'm so sick of her issues. I dont see how I put up with this for so long or how anyone would ever put up with her behavior, unless all they cared about was money, because they would have plenty of THAT. I guess there are a lot of people out there who care a lot about money but Im not one of them. So tired of all this.


You're wife doesn't like girly men. You lost your marriage when you lost your ba lls . She treats you like sh it because that's what her partner trained her to do to underlings.

Have you ever told her to go fu ck herself?


----------



## Joe75

bfree said:


> I guess I'm once again thinking back to @EI and @B1 ...


Hi cinnabomb

For your consideration. Reading bfree’s recent comment concerning EI, led me to the following. 

EI strikes me as woman with an enormous capacity to love. When EI and B1 started posting about the very serious crisis in which their marriage found itself in, she was, as the WS, an angry and defiant woman. However, what struck me was that she is a woman with a big heart. Notwithstanding EI’s responsibility for her affair, it quickly seemed to me that if B1 started dealing positively with his pre-affair issues that the odds were very high that EI would eventually fall ‘in love’ with him again in part due to her considerable capacity to love.

In regards to your wife, is it possible that the underlining fundamental issue in your marriage is that she has only so much of love to give. When it was the just the two of you, you were the main recipient. However, with the arrival of the baby, gradually this little person became the main beneficiary. Also, noting her feelings for her work - not so much love left for you. I have known women who had “only so much of love to give “. Not so bad, if it encompasses the entire immediate family. Not so good, if only certain family member/members is/are the recipient(s).

Cinnabomb, it is challenging enough trying to resolve serious marriage issues when spouses are in love with each other. If the above rings true, then you may have a nearly impassable road for your marriage to travel down. 

Respectively

Joe75


----------



## cinnabomb

Joe75 said:


> Hi cinnabomb
> 
> For your consideration. Reading bfree’s recent comment concerning EI, led me to the following.
> 
> EI strikes me as woman with an enormous capacity to love. When EI and B1 started posting about the very serious crisis in which their marriage found itself in, she was, as the WS, an angry and defiant woman. However, what struck me was that she is a woman with a big heart. Notwithstanding EI’s responsibility for her affair, it quickly seemed to me that if B1 started dealing positively with his pre-affair issues that the odds were very high that EI would eventually fall ‘in love’ with him again in part due to her considerable capacity to love.
> 
> In regards to your wife, is it possible that the underlining fundamental issue in your marriage is that she has only so much of love to give. When it was the just the two of you, you were the main recipient. However, with the arrival of the baby, gradually this little person became the main beneficiary. Also, noting her feelings for her work - not so much love left for you. I have known women who had “only so much of love to give “. Not so bad, if it encompasses the entire immediate family. Not so good, if only certain family member/members is/are the recipient(s).
> 
> Cinnabomb, it is challenging enough trying to resolve serious marriage issues when spouses are in love with each other. If the above rings true, then you may have a nearly impassable road for your marriage to travel down.
> 
> Respectively
> 
> Joe75


regarding copay, we dont use insurance we pay cash. Joe, to answer your question, yes I think there is truth to this. She gives a TON of love to baby, and I am invisible. However, the love was sparse for 7 years now. She slowly and methodically removed me from the equation and fell in "love" with herself and her career and job, status, pseudo-fame, etc. Literally every minute she is home from 5 or 6pm until bed, she is on her laptop or the phone. I'm not exaggerating. I have tried to engage with ehr for years, saying lets watch a show together, etc, and she will sit next to me on the couch, but with her laptop, and it isn't really like we are engaging or doing something together at all because she isnt watching the show, so we arent experiencing anything together. If I complain, she gets furious. Now I dont even try anymore. 

It's weird to me this concept....Why wouldnt you give love to everyone you love??? I guess maybe thats the answer. I dont think she truly loves me anymore. She says the words, but nothing in her actions says love. Anyways, that isnt the FUNDAMENTAL issue. I believe (and have said so from the beginning to our therapists), that the fundamental issue is this narcissistic personality disorder that came about with this new job and sociopath partner 7-8 years ago. she literally did a 180 in personality. It was terrifying beyond belief. I SO regret not taking audio ad video of her during these years. I actually DID take audio a few times and during a positive period, feeling guilty I deleted them. I'm a fking putz, I know. I just didnt want to believe that it was true. 

Now, her blowups arent as bad because she knows we are seeing MC and so she stays within SOME control, because she doesnt want me to bring it up and then she gets "scolded". But they are still typical to what I posted here the other day, except she now defaults to 'I wont talk without MC" within 5 seconds.


----------



## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> regarding copay, we dont use insurance we pay cash. Joe, to answer your question, yes I think there is truth to this. She gives a TON of love to baby, and I am invisible. However, the love was sparse for 7 years now. She slowly and methodically removed me from the equation and fell in "love" with herself and her career and job, status, pseudo-fame, etc. Literally every minute she is home from 5 or 6pm until bed, she is on her laptop or the phone. I'm not exaggerating. I have tried to engage with ehr for years, saying lets watch a show together, etc, and she will sit next to me on the couch, but with her laptop, and it isn't really like we are engaging or doing something together at all because she isnt watching the show, so we arent experiencing anything together. If I complain, she gets furious. Now I dont even try anymore.
> 
> It's weird to me this concept....Why wouldnt you give love to everyone you love??? I guess maybe thats the answer. I dont think she truly loves me anymore. She says the words, but nothing in her actions says love. Anyways, that isnt the FUNDAMENTAL issue. I believe (and have said so from the beginning to our therapists), that the fundamental issue is this narcissistic personality disorder that came about with this new job and sociopath partner 7-8 years ago. she literally did a 180 in personality. It was terrifying beyond belief. I SO regret not taking audio ad video of her during these years. I actually DID take audio a few times and during a positive period, feeling guilty I deleted them. I'm a fking putz, I know. I just didnt want to believe that it was true.
> 
> Now, her blowups arent as bad because she knows we are seeing MC and so she stays within SOME control, because she doesnt want me to bring it up and then she gets "scolded". But they are still typical to what I posted here the other day, except she now defaults to 'I wont talk without MC" within 5 seconds.



Cinnabomb:

If this is you feel and how you think she is acting, why do you need a recording?

Do you think her hearing it will make her want to change? I think if she found out you recorded her to play it for a MC or anyone she'd flip. 

I also think that it might actually backfire with the MC. I'm not sure a MC would listen to a secret recording. That is just my opinion I'm not sure what yours would decided if presented with a recording.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I truly believe her addiction to this job is consuming all of her energy, love and fueling her outburst, just like someone who reacts when you try to take the drug out of their hand. That's what caused the shift... Now could she learn to balance it like bfree suggests... maybe, but not in her current state of mind.


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> I truly believe her addiction to this job is consuming all of her energy, love and fueling her outburst, just like someone who reacts when you try to take the drug out of their hand. That's what caused the shift... Now could she learn to balance it like bfree suggests... maybe, but not in her current state of mind.


Been out of touch for a bit, friend visiting from out of town. Things have been ok at home overall, but not spending much time together, since we had family in town last week and my friend this week. I think you are right BL. This is what it is. It is clearly some narcissism and other things....but how can it change? She doesnt want it to. She isnt even aware of the term "narcissistic personality disorder". That was my hope with the recording to show MC this and hope she can influence my wife in some way. I doubt its realistic. 

It was my hope though. That she might listen to someone like an MC that she respects, saying "you are showing some traits of narcissism, but there is hope with training and learning about it...."

What do you think?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Been out of touch for a bit, friend visiting from out of town. Things have been ok at home overall, but not spending much time together, since we had family in town last week and my friend this week. I think you are right BL. This is what it is. It is clearly some narcissism and other things....but how can it change? She doesnt want it to. She isnt even aware of the term "narcissistic personality disorder". That was my hope with the recording to show MC this and hope she can influence my wife in some way. I doubt its realistic.
> 
> It was my hope though. That she might listen to someone like an MC that she respects, saying "you are showing some traits of narcissism, but there is hope with training and learning about it...."
> 
> What do you think?


I don't think she I pathological which would mean she doesn't have the capacity, but her unwillingness has you dead in the water until she becomes willing. What does your IC say?


----------



## turnera

I think she will never change or question her actions until YOU MOVE OUT and she loses her butler.


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## Cynthia

turnera said:


> I think she will never change or question her actions until YOU MOVE OUT and she loses her butler.


Oh no! 
Rule #1: Do not move out. That can create all sorts of trouble in a divorce.


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## turnera

In this case, I recommend it. This is no different from a woman relying on the man's income - the courts will require the care provider to remain the care provider, at the expense of the money earner.


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## cinnabomb

well I'm just sort of checking in, though nothing much new to report. I've been focused on my work and things I want to do, liek spending time with friends, baby, watching sports, etc, without being all dependent on wife and needy or clingy. I have not initiated a date with her in months and she has not either. It seems she prefers this totally seperated marriage. Maybe she doesn't but she seems content enough. It hurts. 

Some days are fine and I stay busy and it is what it is, and other days, like last night, I cried a bit (no she did not see), looking at old pics. She was really so sweet I just miss her. I know there is no going back. Maybe there is a middle ground. I dont know. Some days I think I can do it if I need to...seperate, and be ok. Other days I am like WTF am I thinking that would be a nightmare. I dont want to be single again, trying to awkwardly hit on girls at Target or whatever! But by far the biggest thing holding me back is my sweet little baby who I adore more every day. I literally cannot go a day without holding and smelling and snuggling and kissing that wonderful thing. 

You get my point. Anyways, that's about it.....thinking a lot about it all.


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## turnera

Then your only choice is to give up dreams of having a wife. Just be a roommate until your daughter turns 18.


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## TheTruthHurts

turnera said:


> Then your only choice is to give up dreams of having a wife. Just be a roommate until your daughter turns 18.


Or maybe 16 when she's old enough to run away and "find love". If she's brought up in a family where mom and dad ignore each other and mom would rather be at work or on her computer, your daughter could very well run off with the first exploitative dirt bag who tells her what she wants to hear and shows her "love".

Man if I knew then what I know now, I could have been quite the player with those girls who lacked a loving home, but alas I was pretty "nice" back then.


----------



## Divinely Favored

cinnabomb said:


> CynthiaDe said:
> 
> 
> 
> lol @Blossom Leigh
> 
> She is doing what works for her. The point is to stop falling into her traps and create a healthy environment, at least for yourself. She doesn't have to join you, but it sure would make things better for both of you. Keep working on healthy responses and see if she comes around over time. I also like @bfree comments about how she is probably filled with stress from work and comes home like a pressure cooker ready to explode. She needs to blow off steam somehow in a healthy manner. Do you know what works for her to do that or can you ask her what she does when she's stressed that helps her get it out and to feel better?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying, but still learning how and dont know everything. BTW this was just a typical "example" of an argument. I made up the part about the baby toys cleaning, usually, the argument is over much more hurtful stuff and there have been HUNDREDS of arguments like this. Repeatedly peeing on the floor and I keep stepping in it, showing up late to an important event where I needed her, repeated ignoring me, being on her phone the entire night on a date night, disrespecting me by name calling etc, yelling or being bossy, even tonight: My mother had made a big pot of food for us and left it on the stove.....I get home and shower and she gets home while I am in the shower, never says hello or asks if I ate, and ate the entire thing herself (and some to baby)! I said "you ate all of it? There was a lot in there and I wanted some." She was like "Oh there wasnt much, here do you want the last bite."
> 
> Im just like WTF, I ALWAYS make sure she gets fed and half of everything in the house. I dunno....hard to get used to selfish behavior. I guess we are just different. She takes care of herself and baby, with zero concern about me. she does selfish stuff like this everyday and doesnt even cross her mind that I'm a living human being in this house. This happens daily.
> 
> I've been doing some research on narcissistic personality disorder and I am convinced she has some of these traits. It's shocking actually, when I read down the list of "symptoms", probably 90% of them are her to a T. Its shocking. Both MC and IC also have repeatedly said how they can see how much changes I have made to try and make this work, but MC has not really said that to her. I mean....1 apology in 7+ years....that's barely progress and I'm still not sure it was sincere. I sent this sample argument to MC and she seemed a bit concerned about it, but then asked if wife would agree on the verbiage, and I said "highly doubtful." I have an excellent memory and wife has an admittedly poor one, and when she is raging she can literally forget and deny something she said 5 seconds ago. So without proof, I guess its my word vs hers all over again.
> 
> Going to get a VAR and see if I can get some proof. But its like....what's the point? To try and prove to the MC the truth about what is going on? And then what??? Our MC is not the type who would ever say to her "honey I think you have some BPD and really need some therapy for it".
Click to expand...

That's when you go to bedroom get dressed and go eat a T-bone at the local steak house or go to Red Lobster. 

When my wife gets cross tone I tell her directly to "lower your tone", if she says " I don't have to" I say "Then this conversation is over" and walk away. If she says where are you going, I tell her When you can speak in a respectable manner we can continue with the conversation.


----------



## GTdad

cinnabomb said:


> What do you think?


I think it's well past time to look into how much alimony you may get.


----------



## cinnabomb

GTdad said:


> I think it's well past time to look into how much alimony you may get.


I've said many times in here that I dont give a F about money. I'd rather be happy, in love, and loved.


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## GTdad

cinnabomb said:


> I've said many times in here that I dont give a F about money. I'd rather be happy, in love, and loved.


Most if not all of us want that, too. The question becomes whether that's a reasonable expectation in your marriage. I'm thinking at this point that it's not.

At least not if you stay on your present course.


----------



## cinnabomb

Trying not to look at old pictures but everytime I drink I cant help it and then I feel awful looking at how sweet she was and then I cry. Im going through the motions, keeping busy, etc. But there's still a bit of denial in me....wanting her to be what she was. Or even something close. Overall the heat is way down at home, like she isnt snapping at me or has not in weeks, and the one time she did I got up and left like you gusy said and she apologized (which she never does). There were other times she was bossy or dissmissive and sometimes I didnt voice my opinion because it wasnt worth the conflict (wasnt something I cared enough about). Trying to choose battles here....

But you know the messed up part? In some ways, think we were better BEFORE MC therapy. Like, it wasnt so awkward all the time because we hadnt put everything all out there like we do in therapy. And now its like every single action is second guessed and we are both in this wierd heightened state of awareness of our actions and scared to just ****ing LIVE and LOVE or do whatever the **** we want, even if it means grabbing the other person and giving them a hug. 

Dunno if that makes sense, but its like now, we dont interact barely at all. Its BEYOND awkward. I mean, she says goodbye in the morning with a little hug and then sometimes hello after work and then goodnight with a small cheek kiss, and we chat on instant message during the day, but when we are actually TOGETHER, like for the 4 hours a day after work, or all day on weekends, we dont talk, interact, touch, etc. I feel like we are so much in our own heads now that nothing is organic, normal, everything is questioned and we are reserved and holding back and its hurting us. I've been spending more and more time out of the house, even weekends, because I dont like that awkwardness, and I'd rather go work at a coffee shop, but it would be nice to not have that. 

Any advice on getting this back on track?


----------



## Cynthia

So you are saying there isn't any spontaneity in your relationship, because everything is over analyzed? Then stop analyzing and do what you want to. If you want to give her a hug, give her a hug. You have had plenty of advice to the effect of showing your wife affection, but not putting up with rude treatment. They are not mutually exclusive; meaning you can still be affectionate to your wife and not put up with being mistreated.


----------



## tech-novelist

cinnabomb said:


> Trying not to look at old pictures but everytime I drink I cant help it and then I feel awful looking at how sweet she was and then I cry.
> 
> Any advice on getting this back on track?


The first step is to stop drinking! :surprise:


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yeah sure. Say this in MC. Say you don't think it's working because you guys are just roommates and strangers.

But maybe that's the point. Maybe there's nothing left and it's time to move on.


----------



## jld

Cinna, how about just taking a breather from expecting change from your wife? Just relax and enjoy your baby and the other pleasurable elements of your life, like your job, your hobbies, where you live, etc. 

If you knew you could not divorce, and you simply had to accept her the way she is, you would probably find a lot of peace in that acceptance. Not trying to change anyone anymore, not fighting against reality, but just accepting life on life's terms, can offer some peace.


----------



## jld

tech-novelist said:


> The first step is to stop drinking! :surprise:


I agree. Drinking, smoking, looking at porn/having an affair, eating rich food, etc., are all unhealthy for us. They are misdirections of our energy.

Seek wisdom, cinna. Seek to live a wholesome life. Do you read inspirational books or listen to inspirational speakers?


----------



## AliceA

I'm not an overly affectionate person. The reason I make sure to kiss DH goodbye each and every time I head off somewhere is because he expects it and he says something if I don't, like 'aren't you forgetting something?'. Start making an effort and you'll start seeing a return. Don't bother making excuses for why you can't be more affectionate because at the end of the day the excuses are just excuses. Actions matter more.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> Trying not to look at old pictures but everytime I drink I cant help it and then I feel awful looking at how sweet she was and then I cry. Im going through the motions, keeping busy, etc. But there's still a bit of denial in me....wanting her to be what she was. Or even something close. Overall the heat is way down at home, like she isnt snapping at me or has not in weeks, and the one time she did I got up and left like you gusy said and she apologized (which she never does). There were other times she was bossy or dissmissive and sometimes I didnt voice my opinion because it wasnt worth the conflict (wasnt something I cared enough about). Trying to choose battles here....
> 
> But you know the messed up part? In some ways, think we were better BEFORE MC therapy. Like, it wasnt so awkward all the time because we hadnt put everything all out there like we do in therapy. And now its like every single action is second guessed and we are both in this wierd heightened state of awareness of our actions and scared to just ****ing LIVE and LOVE or do whatever the **** we want, even if it means grabbing the other person and giving them a hug.
> 
> Dunno if that makes sense, but its like now, we dont interact barely at all. Its BEYOND awkward. I mean, she says goodbye in the morning with a little hug and then sometimes hello after work and then goodnight with a small cheek kiss, and we chat on instant message during the day, but when we are actually TOGETHER, like for the 4 hours a day after work, or all day on weekends, we dont talk, interact, touch, etc. I feel like we are so much in our own heads now that nothing is organic, normal, everything is questioned and we are reserved and holding back and its hurting us. I've been spending more and more time out of the house, even weekends, because I dont like that awkwardness, and I'd rather go work at a coffee shop, but it would be nice to not have that.
> 
> Any advice on getting this back on track?


That is a normal season in MC. It passes as you guys settle into new, healthier behaviors. Just be patient, it takes time. Also, I agree with others that consciously choosing to relax is wise. I am VERY glad to hear she is apologizing when you are not tolerating her rudeness that is HUGE. Great progress. The rest will come if she is coming around in that one area. As you guys are working through these issues the rest of the toxicity will work its way out. What you are experiencing is the time of MC when there is still enough toxicity mixed in with the healthy behaviors and it DOES make it awkward, but the longer you practice healthy and build new memories around healthy... the toxic stuff dies naturally and before you know it you will hardly recognize this timeframe looking back on it. My H and I started MC in Spring of 2013. We didn't end it until early to mid 2015. It took until the last half of 2015 for us to emerge out of that "mixed" behavior stage. We used to fight weekly for several days at a stretch. Now we haven't had an argument since May of last year. That is MASSIVE progress. But it took time, acceptance of the messiness during that progress and nurturing ourselves and each other. Don't forget to build new memories and REST. Approach and retreat


----------



## cinnabomb

We were doing ok for the last week or so, and a large part of that is me just leaving her be, not really initiating much with her. she seems fine with that. but then today something happened that was ridiculous and upsetting. A couple times a week I have to video chat for work, only about 10 minutes each call, and I politely asked her if she can take baby into the bedroom for those 10 minutes, because the lighting and everything is better in living room. Otherwise Im on the bed, its not as professional and it throws me off. Simple request, considering she spends hours a day in the bed with baby anyways, right?

She keeps making excuses as to why she couldnt, none of which made any sense. I feel like I am dealing with a psychopath sometimes. She knows how important this is to me, and kept saying stuff like, can you just do it in the bedroom, or "why dont you move a desk in the bedroom" (which is stupid, we dont have room, the lighting is still bad, and for 20 minutes a week???). So I did them in the bed, and they went badly. After I came out and said they didnt go great, I really need to do them out here, but she wont relent for some insane reason, saying those things again. I coudlnt believe how unreasonable she was being over something like that. And THIS is indicative of her in general...not concerned for anyone else but herself or our baby, WONT be asked or told to do anything at all, and totally myopic in her perspective and unsupportive of me. 
So halfway through her saying these stupid things I said "forget it" and walked away. 

I dunno. What do you think should have been done here?


----------



## turnera

I think you should have gone to the library and had your meetings there.


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> I think you should have gone to the library and had your meetings there.


Yes, or some other place. You cannot make her do what is reasonable, so you have to do what will work for you. The question is, how long ware you going to put up with being treated like that? Sometimes it takes being willing to let go of a marriage to save it, but that doesn't mean it will be saved. It means that if there is any possibility, that's it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What was her reason for refusing?


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> What was her reason for refusing?


nothing. "i dont really feel like going in there". and "oh but i need to cook baby food" (it couldnt wait 8 minutes, and she didnt do it during that time anyways), etc. just BS. I dont know WTF is wrong with her.

I legitimately think she has become a sociopath like all the hollywood people she works with, and you cannot convince a sociopath that they are one. its so ****ing sad it breaks my heart. like, doe she even undersstand how hard this is as it is, trying to start a whole new career from the bottom, and needing 8 minutes to do a videochat to help me out, and all she has to do is lay in bed with baby which she already does all the ****ing time? how does a person justify this in their head?????


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> I think you should have gone to the library and had your meetings there.


are you for real? I need to leave MY house to do an 8 minute video chat??? we have 3 rooms and all I ask was that she occupy the bedroom with baby for 8 minutes. BTW I am starting a new career from the bottom and this is hard enough as it is....she knows that....sad thing is when she was at the bottom and didnt know what her career was, i literally did EVERYTHING to help her. and reverse roles and she wont take baby to the other room for 8 minutes. Im sorry but if you dont see how psychotic that is, then theres no point of arguing.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Face it, Cinna.

If you are going to remain in this marriage, it will be on her terms.

She doesn't respect you. In fact, she feels mostly contempt for you.

Stop clinging to who she used to be, and see her as she is. She's not going to change, because she likes who she is.

Accept it, or leave her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> nothing. "i dont really feel like going in there". and "oh but i need to cook baby food" (it couldnt wait 8 minutes, and she didnt do it during that time anyways), etc. just BS. I dont know WTF is wrong with her.
> 
> I legitimately think she has become a sociopath like all the hollywood people she works with, and you cannot convince a sociopath that they are one. its so ****ing sad it breaks my heart. like, doe she even undersstand how hard this is as it is, trying to start a whole new career from the bottom, and needing 8 minutes to do a videochat to help me out, and all she has to do is lay in bed with baby which she already does all the ****ing time? how does a person justify this in their head?????


There was no reason whatsoever for her to refuse that. She does not have your back. That was a perfectly reasonable request. When I read that to my H he was totally perplexed as to why she would refuse such a simple request. Its not right Cinna and I also would not leave my house. That was reasonable and should have been done. End of story and she failed you. A spouse who chronically fails you is no way to have a marriage. I'm sorry she failed you. I know it hurts and is frustrating. I would be taking myself off that train and putting myself into a space of peace and consistent support to begin healing from the damage. If it were me I would legally separate already to gain emotional safety and file for divorce. I would be making it very clear that I refuse to live long term in such an unsupported way in my own home. You've already gain support outside the home. Outside support cannot totally fix the inside support at home. It just can't. It can help balance it, but it cannot substitute it. She HAS to engage in a loving supportive way to ensure the best chances of a successful marriage and she just doesn't. What a waste. Sorry..


----------



## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> are you for real? I need to leave MY house to do an 8 minute video chat??? we have 3 rooms and all I ask was that she occupy the bedroom with baby for 8 minutes. BTW I am starting a new career from the bottom and this is hard enough as it is....she knows that....sad thing is when she was at the bottom and didnt know what her career was, i literally did EVERYTHING to help her. and reverse roles and she wont take baby to the other room for 8 minutes. Im sorry but if you dont see how psychotic that is, then theres no point of arguing.


Of course you shouldn't have to go to the library or anywhere else. Of course, she should take the baby into the bedroom until you have completed your task. Of course, we all know what she should have done, but you cannot make her do it. She refused. So where does that leave you? That puts you in your bedroom.

Be thankful she didn't interrupt your meeting, as that is probably coming next. She is toxic. Time to make a decision on what you are going to do, as she is not making any changes.

Marriage counseling is a crock as well. She is going there to placate and control you; nothing more. Time to decide what you are going to do, as it is obvious at this point that she is not going to do anything to make your marriage or your life better. I agree that she does not have your back, except to stab you in it.


----------



## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> There was no reason whatsoever for her to refuse that. She does not have your back. That was a perfectly reasonable request. When I read that to my H he was totally perplexed as to why she would refuse such a simple request. Its not right Cinna and I also would not leave my house. That was reasonable and should have been done. End of story and she failed you. A spouse who chronically fails you is no way to have a marriage. I'm sorry she failed you. I know it hurts and is frustrating.  I would be taking myself off that train and putting myself into a space of peace and consistent support to begin healing from the damage. If it were me I would legally separate already to gain emotional safety and file for divorce. I would be making it very clear that I refuse to live long term in such an unsupported way in my own home. You've already gain support outside the home. Outside support cannot totally fix the inside support at home. It just can't. It can help balance it, but it cannot substitute it. She HAS to engage in a loving supportive way to ensure the best chances of a successful marriage and she just doesn't. What a waste. Sorry..


I feel really ****ty and down today. Had a terrible night of sleep thinking about all this. And the worse part is she is goiing to spin it in MC tomorrow like some sociopath like she always does. She literally cannot see how clearly wrong she was in such a simple request, and if she isnt able to do even THIS, then what hope do we have for ANYTHING at all??? 

I feel horrible inside, like my guts are being torn out. Trying to think about like "was there a miscommunication? Did I not clearly state before and after the video chat that I wanted to do it in the living room? was I not clear enough??" Maybee I wasnt. I mean if she asked me a simple thing like that I would get up and do it...whats the big freaking deal??? Why argue over something so inane?

I dont have the strength to just leave. I dont. I see my baby and I cant go a day without hugging and kissing and seeing babys photos. I dont want to start over. And we had a decent week until this stupid little thing. The worse thing is she has not even had the awareness to recognize she did something wrong (she never has), and say sorrry or even try to initiate dioalogue. she just does what she always does....has ignored me since I walked away yesterday....and she will continue to do so until MC tomorrow. I seriously think she is becoming a sociopath or something. It's worse than this too...she has been doing these weirdly calculating things like going over the top with our friends lately, always giving flowers and gifts for absolutely nothing...like WAY over the top. And the last few dinners at friends house she was in the kitchen doing DISHES after the dinner every time.....guess what? In 10 years she never helped me with dishes even ONCE! Am I wrong to think that that is really messed up???

Feeling really down. Much harder to go through this after a decent week together, you know?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

cinnabomb said:


> I dont have the strength to just leave.


You'll get there.


----------



## Cynthia

If she is unwilling to admit to any errors and is not willing to make any changes, marriage counseling will not work. She will use it against you. Personally, I'd bring up the issue of her refusing to let you have your meeting in the place that works for you and if she was unwilling to budge, I'd say, "That's it. If you cannot see this is a problem and are unwilling to recognize my needs and have my back, this marriage counseling is going nowhere and I will not longer participate." Then walk out. You have to set some boundaries if you are going to survive.

Then you could purchase a book on divorce in your state. Do not discount alimony. You are a major reason why your wife is where she is today financially. She needs a little shake up.


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## cinnabomb

so what now? she wont budge or initiate dialogue. should i jsut send her a message and tell her how it made me feel? tired of this BS ignoring stuff I really am. Its affecting my health negatively. Id rather put it out there, but knowing her, she will just justify her actions anyways. I sort of want to just send her a message and tell her how I feel. thoughts?


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## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> so what now? she wont budge or initiate dialogue. should i jsut send her a message and tell her how it made me feel? tired of this BS ignoring stuff I really am. Its affecting my health negatively. Id rather put it out there, but knowing her, she will just justify her actions anyways. I sort of want to just send her a message and tell her how I feel. thoughts?


You are still trying to change her. You will get nowhere and will feel increasingly frustrated as you try. Have you read anything on codependency? I recommend "Codependent No More," by Melody Beattie. http://www.amazon.com/Codependent-N...460397780&sr=1-1&keywords=codependent+no+more

The only thing that is going to help you is to make your own life without expecting her to care, because she clearly does not care. She doesn't care about what matters to you. She doesn't care about your career. She only cares about what you can do for her.

Again, marriage counseling is a waste of time and money. She is not going to improve herself in relation to your marriage. Stop trying to get her to see things your way. That is not going to happen by talking to her. The only possible way would be for you to set some healthy boundaries and to let go of your idolization of your marriage. If you are unwilling to let your marriage go, it is highly unlikely that she will ever be willing to change for you. She will need to see that you are not going to put up with her crap and that you are willing to divorce her. Only then might she possibly have a change of heart. At this point, I wouldn't count on it.

Do you want your child growing up with this unhealthy model of marriage? Think about that.


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## Cynthia

If you aren't going to leave her, readjust your finances and move into a place where you have a study or studio for yourself. Then work on learning how to enjoy your life without a loving, engaged wife and how to do that in the healthiest manner possible.


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## cinnabomb

Isnt it worth trying? I guess Im asking what the best way to let her know what she did was wrong. Lets start there.


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## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> Isnt it worth trying? I guess Im asking what the best way to let her know what she did was wrong. Lets start there.


Then tell her that her disregarding your career needs is not acceptable to you and ask her what she's going to do about it. Likely she will turn it back around on your or make dumb excuses. I don't think it's worth bringing up.

The time for talk is over. It is time for you to take action for yourself. Not to try to manipulate her into doing what you want, but for you to build a life that isn't based on her input or her cooperation. She does not care and you cannot make her care.

I'm sorry. I know this is hard. I know it's especially hard to wrap your mind around her lack of concern for your wellbeing, but it is clear that is what is going on. The only way for you to feel better is to stop letting her have so much control over your life, including your feelings.


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## Nucking Futs

cinnabomb said:


> Isnt it worth trying? I guess Im asking what the best way to let her know what she did was wrong. Lets start there.


The best way to let her know that what she did was wrong is to have a process server deliver divorce papers to her. Anything less will just be ignored.


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## Cynthia

If you are going to say anything to her, tell her in therapy like I suggested above. Either she faces her issue and does something about it or you are done with marriage counseling. Walking out makes a statement. Action.


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## cinnabomb

I totally hear you guys...but here's the messed up thing. I am quite sure she does NOT know that she did ANYTHING wrong. This is sort of her MO, and seems typical of people with narcissistic personality disorder. They truly believe they are always in the right. They honestly believe they can do no wrong. And there is almost nothing I can do to get to her to step outside of her world for one second, step into my shoes, and see why what she did was so hurtful. But, that being said....I still want to give her a chance to see if she steps up or not. So that's why I'm asking....what is the best way to try? Can I send her an email with my thoughts? Instant message? wait until tonight in person??? Or wait till MC tomorrow like CD said?


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## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> I totally hear you guys...but here's the messed up thing. I am quite sure she does NOT know that she did ANYTHING wrong. This is sort of her MO, and seems typical of people with narcissistic personality disorder. They truly believe they are always in the right. They honestly believe they can do no wrong. And there is almost nothing I can do to get to her to step outside of her world for one second, step into my shoes, and see why what she did was so hurtful. But, that being said....I still want to give her a chance to see if she steps up or not. So that's why I'm asking....what is the best way to try? Can I send her an email with my thoughts? Instant message? wait until tonight in person??? Or wait till MC tomorrow like CD said?


Talking will not work unless followed by decisive action. The only thing that might possibly have an impact on her is action. And it's not about making her see that what she did was wrong. That doesn't even matter. What matters is that she is now having to deal with your boundaries. She is using you to meet her needs. If she feels that is threatened, you might get somewhere.


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> I totally hear you guys...but here's the messed up thing. I am quite sure she does NOT know that she did ANYTHING wrong. This is sort of her MO, and seems typical of people with narcissistic personality disorder. They truly believe they are always in the right. They honestly believe they can do no wrong. And there is almost nothing I can do to get to her to step outside of her world for one second, step into my shoes, and see why what she did was so hurtful. But, that being said....I still want to give her a chance to see if she steps up or not. So that's why I'm asking....what is the best way to try? Can I send her an email with my thoughts? Instant message? wait until tonight in person??? Or wait till MC tomorrow like CD said?


My vote is for tomorrow in MC


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## cinnabomb

UPDATE: Well I jumped the gun and went ahead and chatted with her on instantmessage. At first she seemed receptive, even saying "I get what you mean and i was not trying to be unsupportive, and I'm sorry for making you feel that way". She should have left it at that. I had hope. But then she sort of went on this weird diatribe, saying that I need to be empathetic and understand I am asking for a "big favor" and make some statement regarding that. Asking her to take baby in another room for 8 minutes is a big favor??? WTF. I've done everything for her career without any complaint. 

Honestly, this all goes hand in hand with this narcissism....this is all just a powerplay for her. She doesnt like to feel humbled in any way and she wants to leave the conversation with me being demeaned and lowly. That's ALL this is, and it's been like that for years. This is why I cannot even ask for a glass of water in our house because she has this insane sensitivity to anyone asking something of her, as if it makes her a servant or something. It stems from severe insecurity obviously. So we are talking and she is almost berating me saying I am not empathizing, which is total bull****, because I even said "sure I can work with you on this. we can set up the bedroom for when I have a video chat, make sure baby has toys, you have food, whatever". (keep in mind this is 8 minutes we are talking about. 8 F-ing minutes). And even still she wouldnt relent, acting like this was some huge imposition. 

I sent MC a long email about it, saying I am just fed up. She has narcissistic personality disorder and its clear as ****ing day, and if MC wont help with it, well then I dont know. Let's see where it all goes. Messed up right? Anyone else have experience with NPD?


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## Cynthia

You cannot make your wife change and neither can the marriage counselor. The only person you can change is yourself. 

Our primary moral responsibility is to take of oneself and one's children. You got married, which is an agreement to work together in life for the best of the family. Your wife is no longer living according to that agreement. You cannot make her see the light or change her ways.

In order to be happy, you are responsible for meeting your needs. If you have a wife that won't share the house with you and won't leave the room and keep baby quiet for 8 minutes, it is your personal responsibility to get that need for a professional space met some other way. Trying to force reasonableness on someone who is not reasonable is impossible.


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## ThreeStrikes

Sometimes it helps to re-read your thread.


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## Blossom Leigh

Whats her justification for it being a huge favor?


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## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> Whats her justification for it being a huge favor?


It doesn't even matter. She is making things up. She said it was inconvenient for her basically. Yes, it probably is, but that doesn't matter. Cleaning the bathroom is inconvenient, but we do it. She does not have his back, nor does she care about his career. I think it's important to let that sink in, then go from there.


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## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> It doesn't even matter. She is making things up. She said it was inconvenient for her basically. Yes, it probably is, but that doesn't matter. Cleaning the bathroom is inconvenient, but we do it. She does not have his back, nor does she care about his career. I think it's important to let that sink in, then go from there.


Totally agree. I was curious about her thought process.


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## TheTruthHurts

Her thought process is: "cinna is annoying me with his stupid selfish requests for his pityful job. Any minute is he'll whine to me about it but I will try to be nice. But I bet he'll rant on and I'll have to shut him down again. What a weenie."


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Totally agree. I was curious about her thought process.


Its what I said earlier, honestly. There is none, but in HER mind, ANYTHING I ask is a huge favor because she doesnt do a damn thing for me. In 10 years I dont think she has brought me a glass of water once. In 10 years maybe cooked me 5 meals. She has this elitist attitude backed by severe insecurity of looking or feeling like an "assistant", so she refuses to "lower" herself at all to anyone, especially me. So me asking her for a simple favor is often met with "No, not right now, can you just do it, etc". Theres no rhyme or reason. Meanwhile she had a meeting tonight, I took care of baby with no complaint, another meeting tomorrow I said ill handle baby. no complaint. next week she is traveling i said ive got it, no complaint. And I ask her to take baby to one of the other rooms for 8 minutes, and its too much to ask. Insane.

But the kicker is that people with warped sense of reality cant listen to any of this logic. in her mind I am wrong and thats that. My dad always told me not to try and reason with crazy, and I guess I have been doing just that.


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## Cynthia

cinnabomb said:


> But the kicker is that people with warped sense of reality cant listen to any of this logic. in her mind I am wrong and thats that. My dad always told me not to try and reason with crazy, and I guess I have been doing just that.


It's not a positive conclusion to come to, but the truth can be brutal. It's much better to know what you are dealing with them to constantly be trying to reason with an unreasonable person. It's like trying to argue with a drunk. It only makes matters worse and can be dangerous. I'm sorry this is so hard, but I am glad that you are beginning to understand your situation. Once you get a handle on it, you will do better in deciding where to go from there.


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## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> UPDATE: Well I jumped the gun and went ahead and chatted with her on instantmessage. At first she seemed receptive, even saying "I get what you mean and i was not trying to be unsupportive, and I'm sorry for making you feel that way". She should have left it at that. I had hope. But then she sort of went on this weird diatribe, saying that I need to be empathetic and understand I am asking for a "big favor" and make some statement regarding that. *Asking her to take baby in another room for 8 minutes is a big favor??? WTF. I've done everything for her career without any complaint. *


Did you tell her that?

No, of course not. Because you're scared to death of her and because you've basically laid down on the ground so she can wipe her feet on you just so she can excel in HER job; that's your role. She's the man and you're the girl in your marriage. Why should she think you matter? YOU don't act like you matter.


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## ThreeStrikes

Blossom Leigh said:


> Totally agree. I was curious about her thought process.


That's easy.

"Me first"


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## ThreeStrikes

Sounds like the earlier years of your marriage weren't quite as wonderful as you've painted them for us in earlier posts.

That's a sign you're removing her from that pedestal. Good.

She wasn't so nice to you then, either.

Money and "success" tends to make someone more of what they already are. You are a first-hand witness to that process.

Get off the corners of the drama triangle. Stop persecuting her, stop trying to prove she is wrong and you're right. Stop being a victim. Stop coming to her rescue by being a compliant little maid so she can bring home the bacon.

Accept her for what and who she is, and decide if she is relationship material for you. Then act accordingly.


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## Blossom Leigh

Cinna... I think you are going to have to start being VERY plain spoken to her about what you are seeing and feeling. 

"Wife, I think your choice to not support my work the other day was a very poor choice. My request was reasonable and should have been met with a willing attitude as my wife. I am very disappointed and expect better support in the future. This has become a chronic issue and I am no longer willing to accept status quo. If continue on the current path of being an unsupportive wife I will be making other arrangements for my life by the end of this Summer."

And then just leave her there to process what you just said. DO NOT engage her in discussing it.


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## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> Cinna... I think you are going to have to start being VERY plain spoken to her about what you are seeing and feeling.
> 
> "Wife, I think your choice to not support my work the other day was a very poor choice. My request was reasonable and should have been met with a willing attitude as my wife. I am very disappointed and expect better support in the future. This has become a chronic issue and I am no longer willing to accept status quo. If continue on the current path of being an unsupportive wife I will be making other arrangements for my life by the end of this Summer."
> 
> And then just leave her there to process what you just said. DO NOT engage her in discussing it.


Yes. This is what I've been talking about. No discussion. Just stating the facts, then walking away. It's the action of leaving without having to convince her or to talk it over endlessly that makes it different. You have to have action or your words mean nothing. Trying to convince her of anything is an exercise in futility.


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## cinnabomb

Yea you guys are right, because everytime I try to say something like that, I stick around and then she brow beats me into submission and ends up making it all about her, making me apologize, and she feels all good like she "won" the argument and is still "on top". she has this weird psychotic issue with trying to always feel like the elite or powerful person in everything. 

The thing that happened this week was moreso upsetting because we came off what felt like a good week together, and it felt like progress. But Im starting to think that this is how it is with her....shes an angry person with some serious personality disorders, and just because we can have a decent week, doesnt mean that everything is alright. This morning sort of confirmed that...every morning we have a routine where she bring baby in to "wake" me with a kiss. well today she didnt and so I sent her a text like always and she doesnt respond. sent another, no response for 30 min. Guess she was on the phone. So i peek my head out the door and she sees me and I motion "where is baby?" and she gives me a really ugly look and thrusts her hand in the air in a rude gesture, like "im on the ****in phone leave me alone." hard to describe but you all know the look and behavior Im talking about. just rude. 

So I step out, grab baby, go back into the room and slam the door LOUDLY. In the past I would have not done that, and then I would have wanted to talk about why she was rude earlier, which would only have result in her brow beating me until I somehow apologized to HER. Amazing how that happens. Is that called gaslighting? Whatever its called, she is the master of spinning things to make them seem like she was wronged, always getting her out of taking responsibilty. Its very immature. So anyways, slam and played with baby. Then I hear a slam from the other side of the apartment. She does that a lot...shes like a baby who imitates everything around her. 

Anyways, I just couldnt believe that ****. last night I took care of baby cuz she had a late meeting, and still this morning im met with this toxic behavior. F that. I dont deserve that. The hard part is that we have this life built and I dont know what to do or if I even want or am strong enough to change it. we have this wonderful neighborhood, friends with babies all the same age, a community, events, trips to the zoo, blah blah etc. Every week we have 1-2 events with these friends we have made with similar aged babies. Id be lying if I said I wanted to give that up. I mean I love it, Ive made some nice friends. 

But why do I put up with such hostility and neglect at home? Because I think this is what a marriage is? This is what its supposed to be? I mean....is it better out there? It's not like marriages dont all have issues right? What's it like out there???


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## farsidejunky

Until you are okay with losing her, you will always feel like she comes out on top.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> I dont deserve that.


:yay:

You are getting there!!

Now, I would have picked a different time than when she was on the phone, but..... you DON'T deserve an severely unbalanced relationship topped off with a healthy dose of toxic reactions. 

Start calling it out....

Oh.... and the other is called Blameshifting...


You can find it on Out of the FOG in their glossary.


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## Cynthia

Blame shifting is exactly what it sounds like. She turns it back on you.

Gaslighting is when she tries to make your perception of reality seem wrong. It is crazy making, because it makes you doubt your own perceptions.


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## Cynthia

While I understand that you are angry right now, which is understandable, be careful about how you express your anger. Slamming doors and arguing around your baby is unhealthy. That child needs a peaceful, nurturing environment. There is no reason for engaging in arguments with you wife where the baby will hear. I don't think you need to argue with her at all, really. If she doesn't want to carry on a decent conversation, then you tell her what the problem is without further discussion. Then you act on your boundary.

It is important to work through your anger and do what is healthy to resolve the situation for yourself. You aren't going to get cooperation from your wife, so you have to find a way to live without relying on her to have your back. She doesn't and she's not going to. You are on your own. Accepting that, forgiving her, and moving forward with your life will help you to be strong and happy. Do not rely on her for anything, but don't put up with being mistreated either.


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## turnera

Of course marriages 'out there' are not like that. Why do you think we keep pushing you to expect better? Because people DO have better! A marriage is a partnership where both respect the other and want good for them. You've been abused so long you no longer see what that looks like

Are you in therapy?


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## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> While I understand that you are angry right now, which is understandable, be careful about how you express your anger. Slamming doors and arguing around your baby is unhealthy. That child needs a peaceful, nurturing environment. There is no reason for engaging in arguments with you wife where the baby will hear. I don't think you need to argue with her at all, really. If she doesn't want to carry on a decent conversation, then you tell her what the problem is without further discussion. Then you act on your boundary.
> 
> It is important to work through your anger and do what is healthy to resolve the situation for yourself. You aren't going to get cooperation from your wife, so you have to find a way to live without relying on her to have your back. She doesn't and she's not going to. You are on your own. Accepting that, forgiving her, and moving forward with your life will help you to be strong and happy. Do not rely on her for anything, but don't put up with being mistreated either.


1000% agree


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## TheTruthHurts

Cinna - you have exactly the life you've made for yourself and want. Embrace it.

If you don't want it, change it.

If you won't change it, at least be honest enough with yourself to admit it's YOU who doesn't want to change it and it therefore means you want things the way they are.

You can't make anyone else behave a certain way any more than you can change the orbit of the moon. Pretending like things would be better "if she'd only change" is simply you deluding yourself and blaming her for your dissatisfaction with the life you've built.

Hope you eventually realize this and accept your own fault in staying in this prison you've built for yourself.


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## turnera

TheTruthHurts said:


> You can't make anyone else behave a certain way any more than you can change the orbit of the moon. Pretending like things would be better "if she'd only change" is simply you deluding yourself and blaming her for your dissatisfaction with the life you've built.


And, fwiw, this is the BASIS for the book No More Mr Nice Guy, which I believe you've said you've read - but haven't seemed to understand.


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## cinnabomb

Yea Ill admit slamming the door was not the best move but after what she did with my work stuff the day before I was just SO upset and fed up of being treated like I was beneath her. I suppose I could have handled it better but not sure how anything else would have had much impact. It was especially shocking because it came after a night when she had a meeting so I stepped up and handled all baby duties and did a solid job, put baby down etc, and everything seemed fine and she even said thank you that night. Who knows WTF caused her rage to come out in the morning again, because nearly EVERYTHING causes it to come out. 

ANyways we had MC and I told her about all this and MC doesnt pick sides, she focuses more on the post-incident communication, and she said I did a great job but wife turned the conversation too quickly to be all about her, when it should have been about me and why what she did was so hurtfuul to me. This is also wife's MO....if I say "I felt hurt when you did this", she MIGHT say sorry, but then she will make it all justified by saying how she "too was hurt by blah blah" and will brow beat me down and badger me until I have apologized 5x the level that she had. It's how she justifies everything in her head and "keeps the power". Something is just not right in her head. It's a reality I am slowly learning and its really sad. 

Even MC yesterday said that wife lacks some necessary "empathy". In a sense she has become this walled off robot since working in hollywood, the only emotion she is capable of is rage (except with baby), and I have told MC this from the start but I think she is only seeing it now. I dont blame her, my wife is an expert at hiding her true self. No one has a clue about her...not one of ourr friends. They are all distracted by the lavish gifts she brings them and the performance she puts on. 

I told MC that she can help us with communication all she wants, but that if the fundamentals arent changed, then I dont see hope for us. I said 2 things are the key: 1. Her anger and aggression issues. 2. Her lack of giving ANYTHING to me or this marriage. MC understood and said "well only you can decide what you can tolerate on those fronts." She believes we are slowly making progress annd that in timee, with work, we MIGHT be able to get to a much better place, where wife has better handle on her rage and maybe is happy enough to WANT to give something back to this marriage, but no one knows for sure. 

So thats where I am....


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## Cynthia

Do you think your wife is making progress at all?


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## cinnabomb

CynthiaDe said:


> Do you think your wife is making progress at all?


Yes. Before MC she literally had NO awareness of her anger issues, temper, etc. She would be yelling like a banshee at least 1-2 times per week. Now she rarely raises her voice. She still has a ton of serious issues, but at least she now has some accountability with attempting to communicate in a healthier way, and have some understanding of her own actions, reactions, "triggers", etc. I thank MC for that. It's a start. 

But my fear is that the things fundamentally screwed up with my wife are way beyond repair, and that I dont have the tolerance to deal with them any longer. But I am giving it a chance for now.


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## Cynthia

Since you are staying, it is imperative that you learn healthy ways to respond to her, rather than reacting, and that you learn to make your own life, rather than expecting anything from her. Make a plan and implement it.

An example is to find a suitable place for your meetings. Look into renting a studio and look into moving to a different home with more space so you have a home studio. Tell her that you must have private, quiet, professional space for your meetings and either she keeps the baby quiet in your room during those times or you are renting a studio, or the whole family is moving, which option does she like best, because you are not going through that nonsense anymore. She has choices, but all of those choices support your ability to be healthy in your life.


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## cinnabomb

Been a couple weeks since I have checked in here. I sort of intentionally stayed off the boards for some time because at times it can have an adverse affect, making me feel hopeless and staying in a mental rut, so I tried for the last two weeks to focus on being positive, initiating conversation, interaction, etc. It's been very hard and I have to say, I am surprised at how stoic and emotionally walled off she still is. Even after me attempting every day to make an effort, ask her how her day is, ask her if shes like to watch a show together or hug or anything, she still is just this emotionless robot, ignoring me, never talking to me, touching me, etc. 

Been really hard to go through this, honestly. I just keep asking myself, "does she know she is being like a total sociopath? Is she doing this knowingly and intentionally, or is she honestly becoming a sociopath and doesnt even know how awkward this is???" I wish I knew the answer to that. If she was doing it intentionally, for some reason, then at least I would think we had a chance. But if this is who she is, well then there is no chance. 

Feel really down about it all. I've been sick for two days and she has not once asked how I am or if I need anything. It's always this way. I am totally on my own in life, even when I am sick, to take care of myself. It sad because when she is sick I always take care of her.


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## farsidejunky

Yes, brother, it sucks.

What do you intend to do about it?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> Yes, brother, it sucks.
> 
> What do you intend to do about it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I dont know, sigh. But if I am pressed to answer then it would be: Try and try and try until I reach my breaking point and there is no progress or forseeable future, and then move on.


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## farsidejunky

Conrad used to ask people if they were sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Do yourself a favor. Your definition of being at the breaking point can be subjective. Set a deadline. Communicate it to your wife. That way you are not still here 5 years from now because you have not reached your breaking point.

One more thing. Nothing will change until you change, brother. Not for her, nor your children. But for you. Live like the person you always wanted to be. If she responds, great. If not, leave her behind.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> Conrad used to ask people if they were sick and tired of being sick and tired.
> 
> Do yourself a favor. Your definition of being at the breaking point can be subjective. Set a deadline. Communicate it to your wife. That way you are not still here 5 years from now because you have not reached your breaking point.
> 
> One more thing. Nothing will change until you change, brother. Not for her, nor your children. But for you. Live like the person you always wanted to be. If she responds, great. If not, leave her behind.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I am not even sure what this means? Live like how I want to be? Well for one thing, I finally decided to get out of the corporate world and chase my passion, which is such a huge change for me but really exciting too. But what else does this really mean?


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## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> I am not even sure what this means? Live like how I want to be? Well for one thing, I finally decided to get out of the corporate world and chase my passion, which is such a huge change for me but really exciting too. But what else does this really mean?


This will take a lengthy explanation, and I will write it out once I get back to my office in a few minutes. 

Let me just ask you this, because it will pertain to how I answer your previous question. How do you communicate to your wife when something bothers you? Do you communicate it? Or do you let it go and suffer in silence?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> This will take a lengthy explanation, and I will write it out once I get back to my office in a few minutes.
> 
> Let me just ask you this, because it will pertain to how I answer your previous question. How do you communicate to your wife when something bothers you? Do you communicate it? Or do you let it go and suffer in silence?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I suffer in silence. She has become really difficult because:
1. She does a lot of things that are hurtful/neglectful/selfish
2. If I say anything, she blows up, neglects/hurts me even more, retaliates, and then uses it against me in MC. 

So I literally rarely say anything anymore, except for when she does something that like's really egregious or hurtful. But all little things I just let them go now (or rather I swallow them). I'll give you an example of a single day in my life:

I wake up, she no longer says good morning, touches me, or even talks to me. The only time she talks around me at all is if baby is with us and then she is sort of talking to me "through baby" if that makes any sense. She doesnt interact in any way, no "how are you" ,"have a nice day", etc. She gets ready, takes baby and leaves for work, and only then will give the ceremonial "ok see you later." During the day, she does her thing at work, I do mine, we usually check in with each other on instant message. Ironically, on IM, our conversations seem sort of normal. Quite strange right? 

She gets baby and they come home. She often doesnt even acknowledge me when coming home but will use baby again and say "go say hi to papa". She doesnt cook or clean or anything like that, just takes care of herself and baby. typically, she is on her laptop from the second she walks in until falling asleep, interspersed with baby time. She is working or relaxing, shopping, watching shows. She will often do things that are either irritating (like talk with a mouthful of food), or disrespectful (like teach baby something that is counter to what I believe and sometimes even counter to what we both agreed on, like letting baby watch cartoons), or dissmissive (like when I have an idea about something about baby she will just say NO), or even hurtful (like leave a mess for me to clean up like let baby crayon the sofa or leave out dishes for me), or even sometimes other things like ask for my help in a demanding tone. But mostly, the days are filled with just absolutely excessive neglect and disrespect. For me this is especially hurtful because of all I do for her. If I am sick or I get hurt (burn myself cooking, hurt myself playing sports), she literally couldnt care less. Doesnt show any emotion or concern or any sort of nurturing qualities to me. And forget about any form of intimacy, sex, etc. In fact, as strong as my libido is, I am so turned off by her neglect that I dont even want it with her right now. 

So I dont say anything. BUT, when I voice myself about ANY of this, she then loses her cool, blows up, turns into a total monster, raises her voice, and gets furious within seconds and then defaults every single conversation to "lets just talk about this with MC", which we never do. It's so unhealthy I cant even express it in words, to live like this and not be able to talk about it with a healthy and mentally stable individual. She just literally isnt capable of hearing ANYTHING that sounds like criticism, and ANY of these would. She loses her mind and then goes into attack mode. She cant hear "honey you left a mess for me to clean up again", or "why are you letting baby watch cartoons, I thought we decided together not to do that", or "I felt hurt that you didnt care when I burned myself" or "I didnt like that you ignored me all day", "how come you didnt ask if I wanted anything to eat for dinner when you picked up food" or to be more general "this is not working....the way you have been in general, neglectful and self-absorbed, un-nurturing, ignoring me, never talking or interacting with me...it's not working for me and is making me unhappy, hurt, and resentful". 

Well I hope that helps....


----------



## turnera

Why do you even come here? You ask for advice and then use NONE of it.


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> Why do you even come here? You ask for advice and then use NONE of it.


uhm, ok? Bad day at the office?

I come here because this is a forum to support and help people in desperate and incredibly painful situations. People who are in abusive, neglectful, and hurtful relationships. And I have gained a TON of knowledge from this forum and put a ton of it to use, but I don't have all the answers and this is a dynamic and evolving process.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> Why do you even come here? You ask for advice and then use NONE of it.


Yeah but the seeds have been planted. Hopefully they will grow with a little watering. When Cinnabomb comes to the end of his rope and figures out that what he is doing has not worked, is not working and will not work in the future, then he might go back and re-read and actually put to use some of the advice he's been given. 

He will get sick and tired of being sick and tired. 

Look, the way I see it, better he come here than MB or SI!


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## Cynthia

You give, give, and give some more, but get nothing in return. But you are hoping that by giving you are going to get something. That is called a covert contract. It does not work. It is unrealistic and unhealthy. People give because they care. She is not giving because she doesn't care.
Things have become much worse since you last posted and yet you have spent that time focused on your wife and giving her as much as possible. That is obviously not working. It is pointless.
The only reason for you to give is if you are getting something out of it or because you care and do not expect anything in return. If you are giving in hopes of getting something, that is really pointless, especially when the other person clearly does not care about you.
I'm really sorry that your wife is treating you like this. The breakdown of a marriage can be very painful.
Unfortunately I think that your wife is very likely cheating on you. All the signs are there. Even if she isn't, her heart is turned cold towards you. You cannot make her do anything, including care about you. The sooner you get that into your soul, the sooner you will be able to move into a healthier place in your life. I know it's awful to be in your position, but you choose how long you want to stay in it. If you choose to leave, please do not play the martyr and not taking anything. You have invested into the marriage and into her career and you deserve to take out of it your part of what has been invested.
If you choose to stay so you can develop your career, then do not expect anything from your wife, except the financial support to get you where you need to go. Don't expect anything from her. Develop your relationship with your child and build a joyful independent life apart from your wife. Get yourself a studio so you can work freely without interference from your wife. Take care of yourself. That is your primary responsibility alongside caring for your child.


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## turnera

Ok, so what HAVE you learned since you came here?


----------



## Betrayedone

CynthiaDe said:


> You give, give, and give some more, but get nothing in return. But you are hoping that by giving you are going to get something. That is called a covert contract. It does not work. It is unrealistic and unhealthy. People give because they care. She is not giving because she doesn't care.
> Things have become much worse since you last posted and yet you have spent that time focused on your wife and giving her as much as possible. That is obviously not working. It is pointless.
> The only reason for you to give is if you are getting something out of it or because you care and do not expect anything in return. If you are giving in hopes of getting something, that is really pointless, especially when the other person clearly does not care about you.
> I'm really sorry that your wife is treating you like this. The breakdown of a marriage can be very painful.
> Unfortunately I think that your wife is very likely cheating on you. All the signs are there. Even if she isn't, her heart is turned cold towards you. You cannot make her do anything, including care about you. The sooner you get that into your soul, the sooner you will be able to move into a healthier place in your life. I know it's awful to be in your position, but you choose how long you want to stay in it. If you choose to leave, please do not play the martyr and not taking anything. You have invested into the marriage and into her career and you deserve to take out of it your part of what has been invested.
> If you choose to stay so you can develop your career, then do not expect anything from your wife, except the financial support to get you where you need to go. Don't expect anything from her. Develop your relationship with your child and build a joyful independent life apart from your wife. Get yourself a studio so you can work freely without interference from your wife. Take care of yourself. That is your primary responsibility alongside caring for your child.


Here we go again........things aren't going right so she must be cheating on him......Where do you get that from? I don't necessarily see that at all! I was married to the ice queen of all ice queens and in no way was she cheating. This is exactly what I was talking about when I made the point of making sure we offered quality support to people in need and not the knee jerk standard drivel that EVERYONE must be cheating on their sig other. ON THE OTHER HAND, OP.....you need to pay attention and start considering some of the advice that is being offered to you. Unless you grow a pair and confront her and make a stand for yourself you are going to be trampled upon for a very long time. Do something even if it is wrong, Lieutenant!


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## Cynthia

Betrayedone said:


> Here we go again........things aren't going right so she must be cheating on him......Where do you get that from? I don't necessarily see that at all! I was married to the ice queen of all ice queens and in no way was she cheating. This is exactly what I was talking about when I made the point of making sure we offered quality support to people in need and not the knee jerk standard drivel that EVERYONE must be cheating on their sig other. ON THE OTHER HAND, OP.....you need to pay attention and start considering some of the advice that is being offered to you. Unless you grow a pair and confront her and make a stand for yourself you are going to be trampled upon for a very long time. Do something even if it is wrong, Lieutenant!


We have covered that extensively earlier in the thread. I don't think everyone is cheating. I think she probably is cheating with her "business" partner. The signs point in that direction.


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## cinnabomb

CynthiaDe said:


> We have covered that extensively earlier in the thread. I don't think everyone is cheating. I think she probably is cheating with her "business" partner. The signs point in that direction.


I HIGHLY doubt she is cheating, she doesnt even have any desire for sex and she has intimacy issues, according to her therapist. But that doesnt even matter. the issues at hand are what matter. I'm getting closer and stronger every day. It's hard but I am and I have come a LONG way from what I was 6 months ago...no more of that clingy crap, following her around, planning date nights, etc. Havent had a single date night in 3 months.


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## Cynthia

I hope you are right. I hope she is not cheating. But if she is, it would be common for her to stop showing interest in sex with you. Just because she is not interested in sex with you doesn't mean she is not interested in sex.


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## TheTruthHurts

CynthiaDe said:


> I hope you are right. I hope she is not cheating. But if she is, it would be common for her to stop showing interest in sex with you. Just because she is not interested in sex with you doesn't mean she is not interested in sex.


Yep. You never cease to amaze me cinebomb. No matter what anyone says, you continue to believe your W sees the world through your eyes. It could be that you lack empathy but think you have empathy just because you're emotional and play victim so well.

Your W sees the world through HER eyes. Do you get that? If she sees A and you see B, you assume she just doesn't get it and therefore you'll just keep fighting until she sees things correctly and sees "b".

But guess what? Maybe her vision is fine and she's happy with things? Maybe "a" is exactly what she sees and is all she'll ever see? What if "a" is completely valid and in fact right?

You'll never know because you only see things one way and are upset W won't be someone she isnt and doesn't want to be.


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## jld

Well, by staying you get to see your daughter every day. I think that is worth a lot. You also have the opportunity to learn to become more emotionally self-sufficient. There is always a silver lining, cinna!

Have you thought about going to Al Anon? Alcohol issues aside, I think they teach a lot about ways of dealing with challenging people. Just a thought.


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## Blossom Leigh

You HAVE come a long way cinna. You see things clearer that you did when you first started here. You are at least making decisions eyes wide open. Before they were slammed shut.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> You HAVE come a long way cinna. You see things clearer that you did when you first started here. You are at least making decisions eyes wide open. Before they were slammed shut.


thanks BL, and I know it doesnt matter what someone else here thinks. i know the truth. And Ill admit none of this has been easy. Hardest thing I have ever been through, and throw in losing my sibling 3 months ago. 

I'm coming to terms with this:
I think she wants the marriage to work out, but on her terms ONLY, but truly doesnt care for me in the way she used to, or even needs me. It hurts to even write that but it's true. She works with alpha males all day long and she likely sees me as this beaten, bruised, broken, weak guy - and the truth is, I HAVE become all that. I'm admitting it. I didn't know it for years, but each time she blew up at me, and each time I let is slide, I became weaker. And weaker. And weaker. To the point where I don't even know who the F I am anymore. I used to be confident and funny and strong and now I'm crying all the time because of what was. It's sad. Really struggling with the daily mood fluctuations within myself...maybe mood isnt the right word....I fluctuate a lot between "motivated and ready for progress" and "defeated and depressed". Have you guys dealt with this?


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## turnera

This is why YOU need to be in therapy.


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## farsidejunky

cinnabomb said:


> thanks BL, and I know it doesnt matter what someone else here thinks. i know the truth. And Ill admit none of this has been easy. Hardest thing I have ever been through, and throw in losing my sibling 3 months ago.
> 
> I'm coming to terms with this:
> I think she wants the marriage to work out, but on her terms ONLY, but truly doesnt care for me in the way she used to, or even needs me. It hurts to even write that but it's true. She works with alpha males all day long and she likely sees me as this beaten, bruised, broken, weak guy - and the truth is, I HAVE become all that. I'm admitting it. I didn't know it for years, but each time she blew up at me, and each time I let is slide, I became weaker. And weaker. And weaker. To the point where I don't even know who the F I am anymore. I used to be confident and funny and strong and now I'm crying all the time because of what was. It's sad. Really struggling with the daily mood fluctuations within myself...maybe mood isnt the right word....I fluctuate a lot between "motivated and ready for progress" and "defeated and depressed". Have you guys dealt with this?


I have, and came out the other side.

Cinna, I pm'd you my thread link. There is a ton of good advice in there from Turnera, Mem, JLD, Anchorwatch, and many others.

Our situations were similar.

The biggest thing that led to her changing how she treated me was me believing in and needing only myself.

When that happened, it changed the entire dynamic.

The problem is you are still waiting for her to change. Focus on you. Make you better. Put her on notice that the relationship gets better or it will end, and mean it. Then watch what she does.

Earlier, you asked what I meant by being your best. It starts with living the life you want. Yes, we all know you want a loving partner. Too bad, you don't have that right now. So you engage in the things that make you happy; hobbies, time with your kid...the career change is a prime example. 

Cinna, the idea is that whether it works with your wife or not, you want to be an emotionally strong man. So take steps now to make that happen. Be loving, be kind, be transparent. She hurts you? Be honest. 

"Wife, when you do x, it hurts."

She gets mad?

"Wife, when I try to communicate that you did something to hurt me, and you make it out to be my fault, it causes me to love you less."

Direct, bold. And not needy or whiny.

Either she will benefit from that, or the next Mrs. Cinna will. But be the man you always wanted to be before you were worried about the approval of your wife.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> thanks BL, and I know it doesnt matter what someone else here thinks. i know the truth. And Ill admit none of this has been easy. Hardest thing I have ever been through, and throw in losing my sibling 3 months ago.
> 
> I'm coming to terms with this:
> I think she wants the marriage to work out, but on her terms ONLY, but truly doesnt care for me in the way she used to, or even needs me. It hurts to even write that but it's true. She works with alpha males all day long and she likely sees me as this beaten, bruised, broken, weak guy - and the truth is, I HAVE become all that. I'm admitting it. I didn't know it for years, but each time she blew up at me, and each time I let is slide, I became weaker. And weaker. And weaker. To the point where I don't even know who the F I am anymore. I used to be confident and funny and strong and now I'm crying all the time because of what was. It's sad. Really struggling with the daily mood fluctuations within myself...maybe mood isnt the right word....I fluctuate a lot between "motivated and ready for progress" and "defeated and depressed". Have you guys dealt with this?


Yes, I've been through it twice. Its the effects of long term abuse. Its why its important to stay different or leave. Remaining in this will only destry you further. Putting her on notice like farside said is exactly the path I would take. I did that with my mother and my H. My mother walked. My H totally embraced having a better home life with me. The only way you are going to know which way she's going to go is to put her on FINAL notice. I truly believe she will follow my mother's path, so be prepared to be on your own. Expect it and dont let it knock your legs out from under you. She is free to make that choice. At least you will have your answer and can move forward to healing the damage that has been done.


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## cinnabomb

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, I've been through it twice. Its the effects of long term abuse. Its why its important to stay different or leave. Remaining in this will only destry you further. Putting her on notice like farside said is exactly the path I would take. I did that with my mother and my H. My mother walked. My H totally embraced having a better home life with me. The only way you are going to know which way she's going to go is to put her on FINAL notice. I truly believe she will follow my mother's path, so be prepared to be on your own. Expect it and dont let it knock your legs out from under you. She is free to make that choice. At least you will have your answer and can move forward to healing the damage that has been done.


I want to mention one thing that came out of session. She said she is no longer scared if it doesnt work out. I was shocked. How cold and indifferent she has become. It actually explains a lot, because if her mindset is that I am the problem and she doesnt have to change and there is a better life for her out there, then that explains why her behavior has been so completely effortless and "checked out". I was just floored when she said that. I mean this really is a totally delusion human being who has become so jaded by this hollywood BS that she doenst even understand what it means to treat people right anymore. 

I feel sad, for me, this situation, and even for her. I feel sad that a once amazing girl was ruined by a bipolar sociopath (her business partner). That kind and sweet and humble girl became a ruthless, unyielding, hyper-sensitive monster in a single year. WTF. I wish I could change it all, but I am starting to realize I can only change me. Wish it was different. 

I bring this up though, because a couple of you said to "put her on notice". Im not against this, but I can tell you with 100% conviction that she doesn't CARE anymore. She doesnt care enough about me or enough to try and save what we have, and if I said "either make some changes or I'm out", she would pick up the phone and call one of her fancy high powered lawyers. Guess that makes you think, then doesnt it....then why even fight for her? The only thing keeping me in it right now is our baby. I want so bad to be a family for baby, and I will admit that after all the years of abuse, I became unlovable as well, and maybe that is a big factor in wife not wanting to "fight" to make it work. 

So I am trying to work on me for now. That's it. Really rough week though.


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> I want to mention one thing that came out of session. She said she is no longer scared if it doesnt work out. I was shocked. How cold and indifferent she has become. It actually explains a lot, because if her mindset is that I am the problem and she doesnt have to change and there is a better life for her out there, then that explains why her behavior has been so completely effortless and "checked out". I was just floored when she said that. I mean this really is a totally delusion human being who has become so jaded by this hollywood BS that she doenst even understand what it means to treat people right anymore.
> 
> I feel sad, for me, this situation, and even for her. I feel sad that a once amazing girl was ruined by a bipolar sociopath (her business partner). That kind and sweet and humble girl became a ruthless, unyielding, hyper-sensitive monster in a single year. WTF. I wish I could change it all, but I am starting to realize I can only change me. Wish it was different.
> 
> I bring this up though, because a couple of you said to "put her on notice". Im not against this, but I can tell you with 100% conviction that she doesn't CARE anymore. She doesnt care enough about me or enough to try and save what we have, and if I said "either make some changes or I'm out", she would pick up the phone and call one of her fancy high powered lawyers. Guess that makes you think, then doesnt it....then why even fight for her? The only thing keeping me in it right now is our baby. I want so bad to be a family for baby, and I will admit that after all the years of abuse, I became unlovable as well, and maybe that is a big factor in wife not wanting to "fight" to make it work.
> 
> So I am trying to work on me for now. That's it. Really rough week though.


Have you thought about taking some time and rereading the thread, start to finish? Things might look different in light of your new vulnerability in the marriage.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

cinnabomb said:


> I want to mention one thing that came out of session. She said she is no longer scared if it doesnt work out. I was shocked. How cold and indifferent she has become. It actually explains a lot, because if her mindset is that I am the problem and she doesnt have to change and there is a better life for her out there, then that explains why her behavior has been so completely effortless and "checked out". I was just floored when she said that. I mean this really is a totally delusion human being who has become so jaded by this hollywood BS that she doenst even understand what it means to treat people right anymore.
> 
> I feel sad, for me, this situation, and even for her. I feel sad that a once amazing girl was ruined by a bipolar sociopath (her business partner). That kind and sweet and humble girl became a ruthless, unyielding, hyper-sensitive monster in a single year. WTF. I wish I could change it all, but I am starting to realize I can only change me. Wish it was different.
> 
> I bring this up though, because a couple of you said to "put her on notice". Im not against this, but I can tell you with 100% conviction that she doesn't CARE anymore. She doesnt care enough about me or enough to try and save what we have, and if I said "either make some changes or I'm out", she would pick up the phone and call one of her fancy high powered lawyers. Guess that makes you think, then doesnt it....then why even fight for her? The only thing keeping me in it right now is our baby. I want so bad to be a family for baby, and I will admit that after all the years of abuse, I became unlovable as well, and maybe that is a big factor in wife not wanting to "fight" to make it work.
> 
> So I am trying to work on me for now. That's it. Really rough week though.


Really pour yourself into time with your child and good buddies that can help you start healing now. I would stop all MC and just prepare to eventually leave when you are ready. Then just serve her with papers and be done with it.


----------



## RideofmyLife

Cinna, 

I've been following your thread since the beginning. 

You say you want a family for your baby (how old is she now?). Stop a minute and think about what you want that family to look like. Parents pass on a lot of information to their children on how to be a proper family by sometimes never saying a word. They show by example. 

For me, family is joking around the breakfast table and teasing each other about their messy syrup face.

Family is my daughter smiling a delighted smile when she sees her dad and I smooching in the kitchen. 

Family is talking about my day with my husband and him telling me about his day. 

Family is my husband pitching in when I've been sick and he can see I need help with household chores. And the kids pitching in, as well. 

Family is sitting and planning out our vacations and futures together. Where we want to go, the fun we'll have going, the time we get to spend with each other. Listening to each others input because we're in it together. 

Family is about being able to go to my husband and tell him I'm having a hard day and him hugging me and telling me it's all going to be okay. 

Cinna, 

I just want you to take a minute and think about what your family "picture" will be like. What will it look like to your daughter as she grows? Will she learn good coping skills because she's watched you and your wife work together to resolve issues over the years?

Will she learn how to love deeply and unconditionally because you and her mom have set a good example for her?

Will she know she can communicate candidly to you and not have her issues dismissed because she see's that mom and dad don't dismiss each others issues? And, will she learn the art of a good conversation because mom and dad converse so well with each other? Or won't she? Because they don't talk anymore since mom stopped talking "through" her to her dad? 

Will she learn how to compromise in future relationships? Or will she always either give in and never speak up for her needs (like dad) or mow her partner under (like her mom). 

Will she cry herself to sleep wishing her parents were like her friend Sally Sunshines parents down the road who are obviously so happy together?

Sometimes the big picture can take a while to come into focus. I'm glad you're trying to heal yourself, but I think your motivation for change needs to now lie in your daughter. You need to do the best thing you can for her, and right now you think that's staying. But is it? Her future is not set. She's a lump or clay waiting on mom and dad to help shape her into the beautiful creation she can become. 

Think about the family picture you want to present your daughter. Please do that. Think of it as a gift to her, and then take a hard look at what you and her mother can provide by staying together.


----------



## cinnabomb

RideofmyLife said:


> Cinna,
> 
> I've been following your thread since the beginning.
> 
> You say you want a family for your baby (how old is she now?). Stop a minute and think about what you want that family to look like. Parents pass on a lot of information to their children on how to be a proper family by sometimes never saying a word. They show by example.
> 
> For me, family is joking around the breakfast table and teasing each other about their messy syrup face.
> 
> Family is my daughter smiling a delighted smile when she sees her dad and I smooching in the kitchen.
> 
> Family is talking about my day with my husband and him telling me about his day.
> 
> Family is my husband pitching in when I've been sick and he can see I need help with household chores. And the kids pitching in, as well.
> 
> Family is sitting and planning out our vacations and futures together. Where we want to go, the fun we'll have going, the time we get to spend with each other. Listening to each others input because we're in it together.
> 
> Family is about being able to go to my husband and tell him I'm having a hard day and him hugging me and telling me it's all going to be okay.
> 
> Cinna,
> 
> I just want you to take a minute and think about what your family "picture" will be like. What will it look like to your daughter as she grows? Will she learn good coping skills because she's watched you and your wife work together to resolve issues over the years?
> 
> Will she learn how to love deeply and unconditionally because you and her mom have set a good example for her?
> 
> Will she know she can communicate candidly to you and not have her issues dismissed because she see's that mom and dad don't dismiss each others issues? And, will she learn the art of a good conversation because mom and dad converse so well with each other? Or won't she? Because they don't talk anymore since mom stopped talking "through" her to her dad?
> 
> Will she learn how to compromise in future relationships? Or will she always either give in and never speak up for her needs (like dad) or mow her partner under (like her mom).
> 
> Will she cry herself to sleep wishing her parents were like her friend Sally Sunshines parents down the road who are obviously so happy together?
> 
> Sometimes the big picture can take a while to come into focus. I'm glad you're trying to heal yourself, but I think your motivation for change needs to now lie in your daughter. You need to do the best thing you can for her, and right now you think that's staying. But is it? Her future is not set. She's a lump or clay waiting on mom and dad to help shape her into the beautiful creation she can become.
> 
> Think about the family picture you want to present your daughter. Please do that. Think of it as a gift to her, and then take a hard look at what you and her mother can provide by staying together.


wow, that was insightful. sort of brought a tear to my eye too, thinking about my sweet baby (2), growing up in a broken household. But you're right about a lot. The truth is, when we play with baby, it's nice as a family. we will sing songs, dance, cuddle, etc. But there is NO interaction between wife and I. And there is NO collaboration on anything. I long for that. We used to have that. If I say anything which bothers wife (which is nearly anything that is a different opinion that hers or anything I ask of her, etc), she gets very upset and begins to take in this VERY harsh, abrasive tone, raising her voice and going into full on attack mode. It's so unhealthy and borderline insane and I dont want it around me OR baby. 

Those things you wrote....I want all that. It's what I always dreamed I would have, and we were damn close to having it for awhile (long before baby of course). I dreamed of cooking together where the whole family helps out (not just me cooking by myself while wife is on her laptop and not helping in any way). I dream of having a family dinner where we all sit down together and eat something and talk. No joke in the last 5 years, I think my wife and I have maybe sat down and had 10 dinner together in the house, and after baby was born, maybe 2. She often will just eat late lunch so then wont eat whatever I made for all of us, or is on her laptop or whatever ad we cant make it a "family tradition" to sit and have a nice dinner together. Or watch a movie together or travel the world together or go camping or hiking or swimming. But all of those are nightmarish with wife. She refuses to do anything that isnt "luxurious", and even then ignores me and is aggressive and unloving and not fun. All she wants to do is play with baby, eat unhealthy crap, and nap. I want to see the world and LIVE and experience everything life has to offer. 

But how will baby be well adjusted without a father in the house, keeping the balance? Wife tends to completely spoil and overprotect baby, and I want baby to learn and grow. How will this work? Does anyone have any idea how custody works also?

thanks, all.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> But how will baby be well adjusted without a father in the house, keeping the balance? Wife tends to completely spoil and overprotect baby, and I want baby to learn and grow. How will this work? Does anyone have any idea how custody works also?
> 
> thanks, all.


You're the baby's caretaker, aren't you? If so, you'll be the one likely awarded custody and she'll be paying you custody.

And even if you got only 50/50 custody, your child will STILL have a father in the house; during your time. What really matters is HOW you are when you're with your child. All they want and need is to know you love them and want them. And to not have dysfunction in the household.


----------



## bandit.45

I wish Jerry123 would chime in.


----------



## cinnabomb

turnera said:


> You're the baby's caretaker, aren't you? If so, you'll be the one likely awarded custody and she'll be paying you custody.
> 
> And even if you got only 50/50 custody, your child will STILL have a father in the house; during your time. What really matters is HOW you are when you're with your child. All they want and need is to know you love them and want them. And to not have dysfunction in the household.


no, wife is the primary caretaker


----------



## jld

cinnabomb said:


> no, wife is the primary caretaker


How that? Doesn't she work full-time?


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> How that? Doesn't she work full-time?


You guys need to read a little more carefully. When she goes to work she drops the baby off at day care. He's said repeatedly that she takes care of the baby when she's home.


----------



## cinnabomb

Feel like Im falling apart today. Thinking about what she said about not afraid to lose me and its hurting more than I expected. Im really hurting and struggling with losing her. I dont know what to do right now in this moment and need someone to talk to.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cinna, this is going to be tough for you. Your codependency level is high. I know that doesn't help you right now, but it is the largest thing you must address.

What will help now reminding yourself than no mater what happens, no matter the outcome, it may hurt, but you will be okay.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## cinnabomb

farsidejunky said:


> Cinna, this is going to be tough for you. Your codependency level is high. I know that doesn't help you right now, but it is the largest thing you must address.
> 
> What will help now reminding yourself than no mater what happens, no matter the outcome, it may hurt, but you will be okay.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


thank you. it just hurts, feeling like we are inching ccloser towards seperation. it feels all too real and i feel sick about it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Its ok to hurt. I've been in those shoes before, twice. The hardest one was my Mom. I will never forget the day I lost all hope that she would treat me different. I had held onto that hope for a very long time. Its one of the hardest times I've ever had. So, I get it cinna, it was brutal on me too. Just know you aren't alone in this experience.


----------



## turnera

Do you work? I thought that you stayed at home.


----------



## MEM2020

For 75 pages you have said wife is sole breadwinner and you are stay at home dad. 

Now - you post the opposite and ignore questions about it. 

I am now requesting in my capacity as a mod that you clarify this point. 





cinnabomb said:


> no, wife is the primary caretaker


----------



## Nucking Futs

MEM11363 said:


> *For 75 pages you have said wife is sole breadwinner and you are stay at home dad.*
> 
> Now - you post the opposite and ignore questions about it.
> 
> I am now requesting in my capacity as a mod that you clarify this point.


Are you in the right thread? This is his first post in this thread:



cinnabomb said:


> i have other posts in the "considering seperation" forum, but i noticed I was getting really biased responses there, all saying "leave her", "divorce her", etc. so i thought id try here and see what you think.
> 
> i dont want to make this too long, but bottom line in my wife became rich and powerful in a very cuttthroat and insane hollywood industry. she has a whole staff of people that work for her and she is the final say on everything. no one checks her in any way. she began bringing this aggressive and dominant attitude home about 5 years ago.
> 
> its been a brutal ride. im a good and honest and hard working husband that devoted my life to her and giving her everything. we had some wonderful years together. but she changed...drastically. she can no longer handle ANYTHING deemed as "criticism" and i dont mean something like "you look fat", as i would never say that....i mean something like "i feel neglected lately". she loses her temper and yells if you say ANYTHING to her that she doesnt like. she has also started eating poorly, doesnt exercise, and I cant say anything because then she loses it.
> 
> we are seeing a therapist who keeps focusing on our history and parents, etc, and although i think there is value in this, she is never asking the basic question to my wife, which is "do you even love him and care about him." *i should mention that i do EVERYTHING for us, work full time,* handle finances, bills, house stuff, cleaning, and even cooking dinners. she does not give ONE thing to our relationship. NOT ONE thing to me. she ignores me most days, only talking when she needs something or feels like it, and plays with our baby or puts on her headphones and watches netflix (when she isnt working). she is a good and loving mother, which is wierd, as she has so much compassion for our son, but none for me.
> 
> i dont get it. im tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return. i want to make this work and am trying but she isnt reciprocating. ive told the therapist this but she still focuses on broader and deeper things, rather than saying "hey, what you did when you ignored your husband 10x in one day...that was rude. you have to try to acknowledge him more." I dunno.
> 
> i miss her terribly. i pull up old photos of how humble and sweet and kind and loving and respectful she was and i cry. i cry daily. id give every dollar i have to get back to how she was and how we were. she was so sweet and this awful industry changed her. made her crave power and money and fame and all the fake hollywood BS. she no longer seems to understand that she too must GIVE something to a relationship.
> 
> any advice??


This is his second post in this thread:



cinnabomb said:


> im sorry but you are off by a lot. first off i dont care about money. she can take it all i dont give a ****.* ive made 6 figures for 15 years and still dont care about it.* i live extremely frugaly and would take love and happiness over material things. secondly iv given nothing but unconditional love since we met 10+ years ago. we waited to marry because we met in school. im trying to get advice to make it work not simply walk away from the woman of my dreams and my beautiful baby and all our decade+ long memories. i miss her terrible. so much my heart physically aches. i see her in my visions, in my dreams, smiling, dancing, laughing, and looking at me with pure love and saying "will you always love me like this?" i miss her terribly. the woman i see today is a different human and it breaks my heart. i still believe she is in there somewhere. i know it. but something drastic has to change. can i give an ultimatum to leave her business and partner? he is the devil and he turned her into this person. i hate him.


----------



## MEM2020

Confused.

Yes.

Turns out she does nothing for the relationship other than work as the primary breadwinner and is the PRIMARY caretaker to the baby. 

I'll leave you to sorting out the cryptography here. It's clearly beyond me. 

And it is true that I skipped/skimmed a big chunk in the middle of the thread as it seemed - to be the exact same thing repeated in different words. 

Funny how several other folks had the exact same misinterpretation.







Nucking Futs said:


> Are you in the right thread? This is his first post in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> This is his second post in this thread:


----------



## jld

Cinna, do you have a son or a daughter?


----------



## Chaparral

cinnabomb said:


> I HIGHLY doubt she is cheating, she doesnt even have any desire for sex and she has intimacy issues, according to her therapist. But that doesnt even matter. the issues at hand are what matter. I'm getting closer and stronger every day. It's hard but I am and I have come a LONG way from what I was 6 months ago...no more of that clingy crap, following her around, planning date nights, etc. Havent had a single date night in 3 months.


Don't you see how illogical you are.
She doesn't want sex ........with you!

You have been advised over and over to rule infidelity out by investigating .

There are thousands of threads here just like yours and in over ninety percent of them adultery was involved.

Your simply the worst denier i have seen. Great housekeeper though.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you ever read the mmslp book and HOLD ON TO YOUR N.U.T.S.?


----------



## cinnabomb

had a really rough day after our last session, when wife said something to the effect of "im not afraid of this marriage not working out anymore." I was shocked to hear it, but I guess it sort of connected the dots of why she seemed so completely "checked out" lately, not putting any effort into the relationship anymore. If she has already mentally told herself that she doesnt want to change or put effort in, truly believes in her narcissism that she is perfect, and isnt afraid of losing me, well then it looks like I am without hope. It's devastating and heartbreaking. Had a really rough day after that session, felt like the floor was crumbling and I was falling. Talked to my own IC about it and that helped a lot. 

He sort of laid out the 4 options:
1. (what I am currently doing) - hope that somewhere in there, the side of her that I love is still there, but only a drastic change would make the difference in saving the marriage (for example quitting her job and stop working with that toxic business partner). It's probably a longshot but because of how much I have invested in this marriage, it's still where I am. In the meantime, continue my own personal growth. 

2. Stay married, stop giving a crap about trying to change her in any way, be happy with my own life, but live knowing that this is what it is and I will get very little love, affection, appreciation, support, and sex. This is not doable for me for long term.....not anymore. 

3. Stay married, put on a front like our marriage is fine to friends so that at least we still live in our home with our baby together, have an affair on the side. This also is not how I roll. I was taught to be honest in life and adultery isnt my thing. 

4. Leave. Separate, divorce, whatever. I'm not the type to separate and then consider coming back or any BS like that. If im gone then im gone and moving on with my life. This is the worst case scenario in ways, but if you see that 2 and 3 are clearly not for me, then that leaves us with 1 or 4. Really opposites.....pretty rough reality to handle. 

Yesterday and today are better days. It just is what it is I guess and I cant really change her. I can just be what I want, live how I want, and let the chips fall. For now, I'm trying. I told therapist if it wasnt for our sweet baby, i'd be gone already. Its baby that I love so dearly and can barely go a day without snuggling and kissing and playing and tickling and talking to. She's wonderful. That would be my biggest challenge, not falling into depression if I miss baby and cant see her.


----------



## farsidejunky

You are in the exact same position you were in weeks ago. 

Stay or go. Emoting. Indecisive. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

I disagree. There's more meat on the bones of his decision. He is putting voice to not wanting to compromise his morals and realizing he deserves more. He is just being thorough. Nothing wrong with that.

Now that you have gotten your counselors input, I think its time to consult an attorney to explore what the likely custody outcome would be. Inform yourself how much you would have or would not have baby time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Opt for the red pill.

Waking up is painful. Don't think you are the first to do so.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> 4. Leave. Separate, divorce, whatever. I'm not the type to separate and then consider coming back or any BS like that. If I'm gone then I'm gone and moving on with my life.


I call bullshyte.

You are nowhere NEAR being capable of pursuing divorce and moving on with your life and not giving her another chance.

You're a weak, codependent, needy, beta male who can't even conceive his life without his wife.


----------



## farsidejunky

turnera said:


> I call bullshyte.
> 
> You are nowhere NEAR being capable of pursuing divorce and moving on with your life and not giving her another chance.
> 
> You're a weak, codependent, needy, beta male who can't even conceive his life without his wife.


Cinna, I wish I could find something in this post with which I disagree.

Until you truly realize that you are better off without what she has become, your situation will not change.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Chaparral

Has your counselor said anything about her possibly cheating?

From what you have described, I think she gets her needs filled elsewhere a la Hollywood. I'm also guessing, the reason you're still around is so she doesn't have to give up 50/50 custody and pay you alimony.

Cheater or not, she left you and is living in a different world that you do not fit in.


----------



## Chaparral

You should at least talk to a great attorney to see what the likely out come of divorce would be. They could also check her out to see if she is cheating.


----------



## bfree

So cinn, let me ask you this. From your wife's perspective, what good are you? What do you offer her? And I'm not talking about how things used to be. She's not that woman anymore, you're not that man anymore, your marriage isn't the way it was. What do you bring to the table other than being her child's father. And don't mention good qualities you have that she doesn't appreciate. If she doesn't value your affectionate nature then don't say you are affectionate. If she doesn't care that you are neat and tidy don't offer it up as a good quality. What will she miss about you...really? What needs do you fill for her?


----------



## Cynthia

I know it's not about the money and I know you don't want alimony, but you have managed the family finances and you have made it possible for her to get to the level of earning that she is currently at. It would be morally right for you to take alimony and continue to pursue your dream career. This is how marriage works. You work together to build your lives, if one person changes their mind, they are still responsible for properly tying up the business end.


----------



## cinnabomb

bfree said:


> So cinn, let me ask you this. From your wife's perspective, what good are you? What do you offer her? And I'm not talking about how things used to be. She's not that woman anymore, you're not that man anymore, your marriage isn't the way it was. What do you bring to the table other than being her child's father. And don't mention good qualities you have that she doesn't appreciate. If she doesn't value your affectionate nature then don't say you are affectionate. If she doesn't care that you are neat and tidy don't offer it up as a good quality. What will she miss about you...really? What needs do you fill for her?


Well, I offer her a LOT of support. Her job has a lot of ups and downs and she uses me as a "sounding board" and the voice of reason quite often. She will explain something that happened at work and why it upset her and I will put it in perspective for her, to which she will usually say "yea you're right" or "thanks i needed to hear that", or "that's a good idea", whatever. When she is having a bad day, I can help make it better, and when I try (which isn't as often as it used to be), I can easily make her laugh. I'd say we both use each other for these types of "emotional" support. 

Anything that needs to get done, I get it done. Not to say some of this cannot be replaced by some help, but it would be taxing for her because she has a lot on her plate already. I take care of the cars, our properties, our groceries, buying home supplies, cooking most meals, keeping the house organized and clean, all the mail and our tons of bills, even paying all of our taxes and her company's taxes, in addition to any kind of social planning, events, etc. I handle all of the tech in our life as well, which is a lot, and fix anything in the house that needs it (or hire good help and make sure it gets done properly). I manage and pay the multiple people that work for us as well. And when $hit hits the fan (like someone breaking a window of her car), I handle it. She doesn't know how to get things done as well as me so this would certainly be a void from the more "physical" aspect. 

I don't know what else I fill for her anymore. It certainly isn't her "love cup". I believe that is filled by our baby and maybe even in a weird way by her business partner and their "emotional affair". 

As for being too weak to move on, I don't think that's accurate. If she were coming home angry like she used to and using me as a punching bag like she used to, I would have walked right out by now, knowing and learning all that I have from NMMNG and my IC in the last 6 months. But she isn't. It's a LOT more confusing because it's not as awful as it was, the heat in the home is way down, and we are both TRYING to make some progress. And she will sometimes be nice, call it giving "scraps" if you will, and so yes, i still have hope. Just because she says she isnt afraid of losing me, that doesn't mean she wants to lose me. It just means she has accepted one option or the other. Still hurts to hear it, and it tells me a lot, but it isn't an ultimatum or something where I need to stand up and make an emotionally-charged decision that will affect the rest of my life. 

As BL stated, I want to make a well-informed decision when it's time. It's been a 15 year investment, and even 6mo-1yr is not a lot in my mind to be working on trying to repair what has gone wrong. If it isn't meant to be, then it isn't and I will move on. In a weird way I sort of think MC is hindering us though. I feel like we cant even talk without MC because wife knows we will see MC every week so she wont have difficult discussions with me. And also I feel like part of the "good behavior" is because she knows that if she doesn't try, then I will report to MC, and vice versa. So in that way, I don't think MC is great for us, because what would it be like if we didnt have MC right now???


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Heat down is good, but calm environment with no heart connection isnt quite where you want to be. Do you think a heart connection can happen?


----------



## bfree

cinnabomb said:


> Well, I offer her a LOT of support. Her job has a lot of ups and downs and she uses me as a "sounding board" and the voice of reason quite often. She will explain something that happened at work and why it upset her and I will put it in perspective for her, to which she will usually say "yea you're right" or "thanks i needed to hear that", or "that's a good idea", whatever. When she is having a bad day, I can help make it better, and when I try (which isn't as often as it used to be), I can easily make her laugh. I'd say we both use each other for these types of "emotional" support.
> 
> Anything that needs to get done, I get it done. Not to say some of this cannot be replaced by some help, but it would be taxing for her because she has a lot on her plate already. I take care of the cars, our properties, our groceries, buying home supplies, cooking most meals, keeping the house organized and clean, all the mail and our tons of bills, even paying all of our taxes and her company's taxes, in addition to any kind of social planning, events, etc. I handle all of the tech in our life as well, which is a lot, and fix anything in the house that needs it (or hire good help and make sure it gets done properly). I manage and pay the multiple people that work for us as well. And when $hit hits the fan (like someone breaking a window of her car), I handle it. She doesn't know how to get things done as well as me so this would certainly be a void from the more "physical" aspect.
> 
> I don't know what else I fill for her anymore. It certainly isn't her "love cup". I believe that is filled by our baby and maybe even in a weird way by her business partner and their "emotional affair".
> 
> As for being too weak to move on, I don't think that's accurate. If she were coming home angry like she used to and using me as a punching bag like she used to, I would have walked right out by now, knowing and learning all that I have from NMMNG and my IC in the last 6 months. But she isn't. It's a LOT more confusing because it's not as awful as it was, the heat in the home is way down, and we are both TRYING to make some progress. And she will sometimes be nice, call it giving "scraps" if you will, and so yes, i still have hope. Just because she says she isnt afraid of losing me, that doesn't mean she wants to lose me. It just means she has accepted one option or the other. Still hurts to hear it, and it tells me a lot, but it isn't an ultimatum or something where I need to stand up and make an emotionally-charged decision that will affect the rest of my life.
> 
> As BL stated, I want to make a well-informed decision when it's time. It's been a 15 year investment, and even 6mo-1yr is not a lot in my mind to be working on trying to repair what has gone wrong. If it isn't meant to be, then it isn't and I will move on. In a weird way I sort of think MC is hindering us though. I feel like we cant even talk without MC because wife knows we will see MC every week so she wont have difficult discussions with me. And also I feel like part of the "good behavior" is because she knows that if she doesn't try, then I will report to MC, and vice versa. So in that way, I don't think MC is great for us, because what would it be like if we didnt have MC right now???


So you're her at home secretary? Because that's what it sounds like to me. Maybe personal assistant would be a better title.


----------



## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> i have other posts in the "considering seperation" forum, but i noticed I was getting really biased responses there, all saying "leave her", "divorce her", etc. so i thought id try here and see what you think.
> 
> i dont want to make this too long, but bottom line in my wife became rich and powerful in a very cuttthroat and insane hollywood industry. she has a whole staff of people that work for her and she is the final say on everything. no one checks her in any way. she began bringing this aggressive and dominant attitude home about 5 years ago.
> 
> its been a brutal ride. im a good and honest and hard working husband that devoted my life to her and giving her everything. we had some wonderful years together. but she changed...drastically. she can no longer handle ANYTHING deemed as "criticism" and i dont mean something like "you look fat", as i would never say that....i mean something like "i feel neglected lately". she loses her temper and yells if you say ANYTHING to her that she doesnt like. she has also started eating poorly, doesnt exercise, and I cant say anything because then she loses it.
> 
> we are seeing a therapist who keeps focusing on our history and parents, etc, and although i think there is value in this, she is never asking the basic question to my wife, which is "do you even love him and care about him." i should mention that i do EVERYTHING for us, work full time, handle finances, bills, house stuff, cleaning, and even cooking dinners. she does not give ONE thing to our relationship. NOT ONE thing to me. she ignores me most days, only talking when she needs something or feels like it, and plays with our baby or puts on her headphones and watches netflix (when she isnt working). she is a good and loving mother, which is wierd, as *she has so much compassion for our son, but none for me. *
> 
> i dont get it. im tired of giving and giving and getting nothing in return. i want to make this work and am trying but she isnt reciprocating. ive told the therapist this but she still focuses on broader and deeper things, rather than saying "hey, what you did when you ignored your husband 10x in one day...that was rude. you have to try to acknowledge him more." I dunno.
> 
> i miss her terribly. i pull up old photos of how humble and sweet and kind and loving and respectful she was and i cry. i cry daily. id give every dollar i have to get back to how she was and how we were. she was so sweet and this awful industry changed her. made her crave power and money and fame and all the fake hollywood BS. she no longer seems to understand that she too must GIVE something to a relationship.
> 
> any advice??






cinnabomb said:


> had a really rough day after our last session, when wife said something to the effect of "im not afraid of this marriage not working out anymore." I was shocked to hear it, but I guess it sort of connected the dots of why she seemed so completely "checked out" lately, not putting any effort into the relationship anymore. If she has already mentally told herself that she doesnt want to change or put effort in, truly believes in her narcissism that she is perfect, and isnt afraid of losing me, well then it looks like I am without hope. It's devastating and heartbreaking. Had a really rough day after that session, felt like the floor was crumbling and I was falling. Talked to my own IC about it and that helped a lot.
> 
> He sort of laid out the 4 options:
> 1. (what I am currently doing) - hope that somewhere in there, the side of her that I love is still there, but only a drastic change would make the difference in saving the marriage (for example quitting her job and stop working with that toxic business partner). It's probably a longshot but because of how much I have invested in this marriage, it's still where I am. In the meantime, continue my own personal growth.
> 
> 2. Stay married, stop giving a crap about trying to change her in any way, be happy with my own life, but live knowing that this is what it is and I will get very little love, affection, appreciation, support, and sex. This is not doable for me for long term.....not anymore.
> 
> 3. Stay married, put on a front like our marriage is fine to friends so that at least we still live in our home with our baby together, have an affair on the side. This also is not how I roll. I was taught to be honest in life and adultery isnt my thing.
> 
> 4. Leave. Separate, divorce, whatever. I'm not the type to separate and then consider coming back or any BS like that. If im gone then im gone and moving on with my life. This is the worst case scenario in ways, but if you see that 2 and 3 are clearly not for me, then that leaves us with 1 or 4. Really opposites.....pretty rough reality to handle.
> 
> Yesterday and today are better days. It just is what it is I guess and I cant really change her. I can just be what I want, live how I want, and let the chips fall. For now, I'm trying. I told therapist if it wasnt for our sweet baby, i'd be gone already. *Its baby that I love so dearly and can barely go a day without snuggling and kissing and playing and tickling and talking to. She's wonderful. That would be my biggest challenge, not falling into depression if I miss baby and cant see her.*



So which do you have Cinna??? Is it a son or a daughter? Usually you just say "baby" but in post one it was a son, now it is a daughter:scratchhead:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

kristin2349 said:


> So which do you have Cinna??? Is it a son or a daughter? Usually you just say "baby" but in post one it was a son, now it is a daughter:scratchhead:


:wtf:


----------



## Nucking Futs

kristin2349 said:


> So which do you have Cinna??? Is it a son or a daughter? Usually you just say "baby" but in post one it was a son, now it is a daughter:scratchhead:


----------



## bankshot1993

oh oh did we just bust a troll? how do you forget the sex of your two year old child.


----------



## Chaparral

A lot of people change major details so they can avoid being recognized.


----------



## kristin2349

Chaparral said:


> A lot of people change major details so they can avoid being recognized.


Not the only thing that doesn't add up IMO. He had admitted in earlier posts that he is a "writer" we get a lot of those here and their threads always go nowhere.. @CopperTop is the last "writer" I could think of that was a prisoner of a doomed marriage that he refused to leave. Both writers either can't arc their story, or just want to see how long they can keep a reader hanging on. 

If you look back at OP's earlier posts he has been whining about the same things for a year. This has gone nowhere yet he keeps whining. The mods shut CopperTop's thread down for lack of any progress. 

Somehow his wife is "rich and powerful" yet they live in a 3 room (not 3 bedroom) home or apt.. He posted that she wouldn't vacate the living room so he could do a work video chat there, instead he had to do it in the BR. Yet he has to hire all these people to take care of 3 rooms and "properties". They have a "full time housekeeper" and a "full time nanny" but the house is a mess and the "baby" goes to daycare...OP pays all the bills and does her business taxes (um I wouldn't let my business partner's wife do our taxes and her so called "toxic" partner should be smarter than that). Also "rich, powerful wife" bought a handbag and he has no clue how much it costs? And he gets his knickers in a twist about it...I'm "well off" I spend a ton of cash on handbags (avg. 3 to 10K) It is what many women do, especially "rich" women that must maintain an image in Hollywood. I've only half paid attention and this is what I can rattle off from memory. It smells dank and mossy is all I'm sayin'.


----------



## MEM2020

Kristin,
Excellent points. 


Useful advice is predicated on accurate info. 

Smart people typically just shift dates / durations enough to ensure anonymity. 

The level of distortion you have identified - is a bit worrisome. 






kristin2349 said:


> Not the only thing that doesn't add up IMO. He had admitted in earlier posts that he is a "writer" we get a lot of those here and their threads always go nowhere.. @CopperTop is the last "writer" I could think of that was a prisoner of a doomed marriage that he refused to leave. Both writers either can't arc their story, or just want to see how long they can keep a reader hanging on.
> 
> If you look back at OP's earlier posts he has been whining about the same things for a year. This has gone nowhere yet he keeps whining. The mods shut CopperTop's thread down for lack of any progress.
> 
> Somehow his wife is "rich and powerful" yet they live in a 3 room (not 3 bedroom) home or apt.. He posted that she wouldn't vacate the living room so he could do a work video chat there, instead he had to do it in the BR. Yet he has to hire all these people to take care of 3 rooms and "properties". They have a "full time housekeeper" and a "full time nanny" but the house is a mess and the "baby" goes to daycare...OP pays all the bills and does her business taxes (um I wouldn't let my business partner's wife do our taxes and her so called "toxic" partner should be smarter than that). Also "rich, powerful wife" bought a handbag and he has no clue how much it costs? And he gets his knickers in a twist about it...I'm "well off" I spend a ton of cash on handbags (avg. 3 to 10K) It is what many women do, especially "rich" women that must maintain an image in Hollywood. I've only half paid attention and this is what I can rattle off from memory. It smells dank and mossy is all I'm sayin'.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

@kristin2349 you are one astute/sharp cookie.


----------



## cinnabomb

kristin2349 said:


> So which do you have Cinna??? Is it a son or a daughter? Usually you just say "baby" but in post one it was a son, now it is a daughter:scratchhead:


baby girl. I said son earlier because I was afraid wife might be on the same forum and wanted to be discreet, but now I don't even care if she was. I have a baby girl and she's swweter and more hilarious than anything I've ever known.


----------



## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> baby girl. I said son earlier because I was afraid wife might be on the same forum and wanted to be discreet, but now I don't even care if she was. I have a baby girl and she's swweter and more hilarious than anything I've ever known.



Don't you think contually outing her profession is a LOT more obvious than the sex of your child? Trust me if your wife is on this forum you've dropped enough bread crumbs for her.


----------



## cinnabomb

kristin2349 said:


> Not the only thing that doesn't add up IMO. He had admitted in earlier posts that he is a "writer" we get a lot of those here and their threads always go nowhere.. @CopperTop is the last "writer" I could think of that was a prisoner of a doomed marriage that he refused to leave. Both writers either can't arc their story, or just want to see how long they can keep a reader hanging on.
> 
> If you look back at OP's earlier posts he has been whining about the same things for a year. This has gone nowhere yet he keeps whining. The mods shut CopperTop's thread down for lack of any progress.
> 
> Somehow his wife is "rich and powerful" yet they live in a 3 room (not 3 bedroom) home or apt.. He posted that she wouldn't vacate the living room so he could do a work video chat there, instead he had to do it in the BR. Yet he has to hire all these people to take care of 3 rooms and "properties". They have a "full time housekeeper" and a "full time nanny" but the house is a mess and the "baby" goes to daycare...OP pays all the bills and does her business taxes (um I wouldn't let my business partner's wife do our taxes and her so called "toxic" partner should be smarter than that). Also "rich, powerful wife" bought a handbag and he has no clue how much it costs? And he gets his knickers in a twist about it...I'm "well off" I spend a ton of cash on handbags (avg. 3 to 10K) It is what many women do, especially "rich" women that must maintain an image in Hollywood. I've only half paid attention and this is what I can rattle off from memory. It smells dank and mossy is all I'm sayin'.


Can't really make sense of all this, but I certainly have better things to do than go to a marriage help forum and post a fictional story. I'm here for real help. What do you want to know kristin? First off, I grew up to be very thrifty and careful with money. Doesn't matter how rich we are, I would never spend 3-10k on anything materialistic and the fact that you do that is a little shocking, but I hope for your sake that you make a ton and save a ton. I worked in finance for many years and can attest to the fact that the average american has SO little savings (and most of my clients are high income earners), that they would not survive unemployment for more than 6 months. This is appalling. 

Yep we live in a 2 bedroom condo. We are rich because I maintain thriftiness and keeps most our money in savings. If it were up to my wife, who has become extremely materialistic and image-conscious the last 7 years, we'd have a giant house and 2 teslas in the garage. But we don't and thank god for that because our life wouldn't be improved by 1% and we'd have no money for a rainy day. If you equate "richness" to material things, then you obviously don't have a clue about what wealth means. 

Yep we have a full time nanny to help my wife with baby after her daycare hours. Yep we have a house cleaner 2x a week. Place still gets trashed the other 5 days. A 2 year old and a mom who doesnt care about cleanliness will do that. 

Also, I don't "do" the taxes, I said I PAY them. Big difference. We have a corporate CPA for my wife's company. I just make the federal and state distributions each quarter. 

Lastly, when we have ALWAYS agreed to be thrifty (something I can guess who you can't even IMAGINE what that means), and wife suddenly comes home with her second VERY expensive brand purse in the same year, then yes we need to have a talk about it. I wouldn't go out and spend thousands on ANYTHING without talking to her about it first. That's how you build wealth. 

But aside from all that, great job with your investigation. Have you considered a side job as a P.I.?


----------



## cinnabomb

kristin2349 said:


> Don't you think contually outing her profession is a LOT more obvious than the sex of your child? Trust me if your wife is on this forum you've dropped enough bread crumbs for her.


No, I don't.


----------



## cinnabomb

ENough wasting time with meaningless arguing. I've been MIA for a bit because we have family staying with us and it's been hectic between them and my career change. 

With wife, I'm not exactly sure if I would call her current behavior "bad", because she isn't snapping at me or raising her voice like she used to, however, as I am doing the 180, we are barely talking at all, so there isn't anything to snap about. I am barely initiating conversation with her, not saying a single critical thing. So from her perspective, things are probably right where she wants them. 

She is, however, continuing to be very ego-centric, self-centered, and neglectful. She takes care of herself and baby and really doesnt give a crap about me, if I have eaten or hungry, if I am physically ill or body hurts from sports, etc. She will also barely talk to me or touch or interact. This neglect is the #1 reason I am unhappy in this marriage. It has gone on for 7 years and gotten worse each year and much worse after baby was born. 

Honestly she seems checked out for the most part, just going through the motions. Maybe I'm wrong. But I know in my heart that I don't want to be with a person who doesnt give a **** about me. I deserve to be loved and appreciated and to be with someone who is excited to be with me. 

What are your guys thoughts? Continue the 180, my IC, myself, and see where it goes? Give it a timeline and see if there is improvement? Have "the talk" and tell her about how serious this is and how I feel? Right now it just feels like limbo.


----------



## kristin2349

cinnabomb said:


> Can't really make sense of all this, but I certainly have better things to do than go to a marriage help forum and post a fictional story. I'm here for real help. What do you want to know kristin? First off, I grew up to be very thrifty and careful with money. Doesn't matter how rich we are, I would never spend 3-10k on anything materialistic and the fact that you do that is a little shocking, but I hope for your sake that you make a ton and save a ton. I worked in finance for many years and can attest to the fact that the average american has SO little savings (and most of my clients are high income earners), that they would not survive unemployment for more than 6 months. This is appalling.
> 
> *I have more than enough savings to carry me through an eternity of rainy days. I'm in my mid 40's and retired with zero debt, not a mortgage or a car payment. There is only so much cash you can stuff in a coffin. If an Hermes bag makes me happy, who are you to judge. I don't judge "thrifty" people.*
> 
> Yep we live in a 2 bedroom condo. We are rich because I maintain thriftiness and keeps most our money in savings. If it were up to my wife, who has become extremely materialistic and image-conscious the last 7 years, we'd have a giant house and 2 teslas in the garage. But we don't and thank god for that because our life wouldn't be improved by 1% and we'd have no money for a rainy day. If you equate "richness" to material things, then you obviously don't have a clue about what wealth means.
> 
> *I'm from CT, I have a good idea what "wealth means"...It doesn't have to repeatedly use the word "rich" for starters.*
> 
> Yep we have a full time nanny to help my wife with baby after her daycare hours. Yep we have a house cleaner 2x a week. Place still gets trashed the other 5 days. A 2 year old and a mom who doesnt care about cleanliness will do that.
> 
> Also, I don't "do" the taxes, I said I PAY them. Big difference. We have a corporate CPA for my wife's company. I just make the federal and state distributions each quarter.
> 
> Lastly, when we have ALWAYS agreed to be thrifty (something I can guess who you can't even IMAGINE what that means), and wife suddenly comes home with her second VERY expensive brand purse in the same year, then yes we need to have a talk about it. I wouldn't go out and spend thousands on ANYTHING without talking to her about it first. That's how you build wealth.
> 
> But aside from all that, great job with your investigation. Have you considered a side job as a P.I.?
> 
> *As I said before I am retired, a PI job could be fun thanks for the idea.
> 
> Your story still seems off to me, I'm out.*


----------



## cinnabomb

I'm having good days and bad ones. Or even moments. Good ones look like this:

I deserve better. I can do this. There is a whole world out there for me to explore and I have a lot to offer, and should be with someone who loves and appreciates me, is sound of mind and reasonable, and passionate and present. I WILL be strong enough to be okay. I will get healthier. I will explore more, work harder, be better, improve my social insecurities, be more integrated. 

And then I have bad days that look like this:
I love her still (which I do). I miss her terribly, and today she was sort of kind to me, even laughed a bit. I love these family moments in bed, her me and our baby cuddling. I don't want to know that the last 15 years, memories, friends, trips, pictures, were all for nothing. I can't handle knowing that I will be a disappointment to my parents if this doesn't work. I don't want my friends and her friends to think of me as some awful person. I'm too weak to let go of her, I don't want to start all over again. I'm too old and don't have "game" and don't want to kick it to girls at the grocery store and be publicly rejected. ****, how did I end up here? Maybe she will change, improve. I know she can, but how long would that take? And would it even be enough? And in a weird way, I actually feel bad for her. Deep down she is sensitive and I feel horrible thinking she would be alone in the world. She used to be so sweet and dependent on me for her security and I just feel bad about it, even though she is probably stronger now than I know. Maybe she isnt. I dunno. Plus I can't go a day without seeing my beautiful baby. I don't want to be alone forever. 

I'm sure many of you can relate to this. It's really hard, being in this limbo, going on this roller coaster ride. I mean, I know what I want. But I also know that a lot of what I want cannot be fulfilled in this marriage. But does that mean that a 16 year commitment should so easily be written off? I mean we all have to sacrifice somethings in life, does anyone ever get everything they want? I dont know. Just talking out loud. The truth is, if I was at the very least getting regular sex (or any), then some of my complaints would be more tolerable. But it's not just sex. Its total neglect, and dealing with someone who is hyper-involved in her own life and our baby, and has very little left for me. And then a super-sensitivity to criticism and a temper, which makes talking about issues impossible. Its a bad combination.


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## Blossom Leigh

She is no longer who she used to be. She is less dependent on you. Stop pushing for old things. Work on connecting with her in her new independent style. Maybe the sex will come, but I would put a time limit on this focus or approach. If you can't get it figured out in 6 months to 18 month timeframe, I would pull the plug, especially if the abuse doesn't stop.


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## turnera

And that whole passage is why you should be seeing a psychologist twice a week, until you get your sh*t back.


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## TheTruthHurts

16 years is nothing. I have dirty socks under my bed longer than that. With this thinking you'll get 16 more horrible years and then be saying "32 years isn't something I want to waste"

Frankly it's ridiculous to think that the mere passage of time is a reason to stay in any situation that makes you miserable.

Guess what? In 2 more years, 2 more years will have passed. It means nothing.

What matters is now and if your now sucks - which it does - you have absolute and complete power to change it - EASILY. Seriously - you literally do something different when you wake up. You get divorce forms or see an attorney.

Frankly it's much easier than stewing in misery.


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## TheTruthHurts

The key is NOT to think of all the possibilities and potential consequences of any action. Just pick an action and do it without deep thought. Wake up and devise to search for phone numbers for lawyers, randomly pick one, and call. Nothing to it. Seriously. If you don't like them you're only out the call and maybe 1 appointment. It's nothing.

Simply don't let your anxiety and insecurity paralyze you.


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## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> The key is NOT to think of all the possibilities and potential consequences of any action. Just pick an action and do it without deep thought. Wake up and devise to search for phone numbers for lawyers, randomly pick one, and call. Nothing to it. Seriously. If you don't like them you're only out the call and maybe 1 appointment. It's nothing.
> 
> Simply don't let your anxiety and insecurity paralyze you.


Damn, easily the best advice Ive heard in awhile. I am notorious for overthinking things, and often seeing the worst case scenarios play out in my head. ill make that call.


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## Blossom Leigh

YAY!!! Advice that stuck the first time!!

Excellent move TTH

I'm hearing peace in you cinna... Let it grow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

TheTruthHurts said:


> 16 years is nothing. I have dirty socks under my bed longer than that. With this thinking you'll get 16 more horrible years and then be saying "32 years isn't something I want to waste"
> 
> Frankly it's ridiculous to think that the mere passage of time is a reason to stay in any situation that makes you miserable.
> 
> Guess what? In 2 more years, 2 more years will have passed. It means nothing.
> 
> What matters is now and if your now sucks - which it does - you have absolute and complete power to change it - EASILY. Seriously - you literally do something different when you wake up. You get divorce forms or see an attorney.
> 
> Frankly it's much easier than stewing in misery.


The sunk cost fallacy.


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## cinnabomb

It's been nearly a month since my last post so I thought I'd check in with an update. It's been a better last few weeks, mostly because I have sort of resided to the perspective of "I'm not going to live in anger anymore about my wife changing her behavior so drastically. I'm not even going to sit and blame her for not being able to give me affection, love, sympathy, sex, whatever. It may be possible that she isn't even capable of those things anymore, being the different person she is today."

It's sad, but not something I want to dwell about anymore. So I have gone about with my life, trying to find my own happiness wherever possible, not being angry or bitter or needy or depressed anymore (for the most part...I have slip-ups like any other human). I have mentally begun preparing myself for the possibility of a life without her. Again, really hard to do, have had slip-ups (especially when looking at old photos late at night), but overall I am doing FAR better. I have even taken your advice and talked to a lawyer, just to see how custody would work, because at this point, my baby is my priority and I can't go without seeing her and being a part of her life. 

I am opening my eyes up to a world where I can find my own happiness...explore the world, be myself more, chase what I want, and hopefully even find the love and intimacy and appreciation that I deserve and desire. I have not made any decisions officially, but am just trying to be positive and "see where this goes". 

There is one major thing I need your help with, one major issue I'm dealing with. Although my wife is a "power-player" in the hollywood world, and has become more aggressive and abrasive and assertive, the "old her" is still this very sensitive and even childish person, insecure at times, and in the past relied heavily on me for support. There are times when I see this old side of her (not as often of course), and it breaks my heart. I feel incredibly overwhelmed with guilt at the thought of leaving her, thinking how sad it might be for her to feel lonely without me. It tears me up from within and I am having trouble dealing with those moments. Anyone go through this? Any advice? Is this normal?


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## farsidejunky

Perfectly normal. Consequences suck for all involved. You can't save her from herself. Only she can do that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts

My oldest boys are off to college in a few months. Realistically this is my last summer with them. Then they're on their way to manhood. I imagine they'll be in touch every time they need something, but I also hope they'll reach out for advice and just to touch base.

Things change. Change us good. Look back only when you have the time to take a little sentimental journey. Otherwise it's ok to look forward.


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## cinnabomb

So since our last big MC session, wife has been significantly nicer to me, making more attempts to be aware of my presence, engage with me, and touch/be affectionate. Still no sex, but she has never initiated and the truth is, I don't feel comfortable doing it right now either, because I don't want to send the wrong signals and still do not trust these changes, as it's only been a week. 

And as far as my progress, I have continued to be stronger, stand up for myself when I feel wronged or dismissed, and try to focus on positivity and happiness in my life. Not always easy but I am making a lot of progress and it's been a healthier environment for me. 

But there are some bigger issues I need your advice on. 

Let's say she truly can change in some aspects, and stop neglecting me as she has done for so many years. Let's say she continues to work on her anger management and improves in that field as well. My issues are that there are some things that make it VERY hard for me to picture a continuing life with her, and I'm not sure how to broach them or talk to her about them:

1. Sex. I have a strong libido and am sick and tired of a sexless marriage. Not only do we almost never have it, even when we have it, she is prudish in the bed, barely engaged. Is it too much to ask to have her go down on me for 1 minute before sex, to make me feel like a man??? My ideal scenario would be sex nightly, and instead of coming home and immediately putting on gross giant baggy pajamas and pulling them up to her neck, she could put something on that actually showed a little....skin. 

2. Her recent decision to stop eating healthy and stop exercising and taking care of herself. Since we had the baby something snapped and she starting to act just like her mother....eating horribly and not exercising once in the last 3 years. I see more of her mother in her every day and it's brutal to watch because I know where it will lead....to obesity, disease, laziness, and apathy. And I don't want to be with someone like that. (There is another huge factor here, which is that her parents are moving from the east coast to our city soon, and that means her parents and their 100 bags of potato chips, chocolates, and candies will be 1 mile from my home. This is an enormous stress for me because of how impressionable my wife is around that lifestyle). 

So these are two huge things for me. I really want to still try to make this work. I have made huge progress on my end, and I think she is genuinely trying in some aspects, but we haven't really talked about these two issues much in therapy. And they are HUGE issues for me. Dealbreakers. Any advice?


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## turnera

Therapy is the place TO discuss your most important issues. Those are the dealbreakers, after all. She has to know you can't stay if those don't get resolved.

That said, if her weight/lack of exercise is a dealbreaker, what are YOU doing to make that happen? Are you setting up picnics or hikes or bike rides or something? Are you getting babysitter so the two of you can go to the gym together?


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## sapientia

One of the wisest quotes (I like quotes) I kept in mind during my divorce after 20 years:

Remember, you aren't running away from something horrible. You are running towards something beautiful.

Peace and good luck.


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## cinnabomb

turnera2 said:


> Therapy is the place TO discuss your most important issues. Those are the dealbreakers, after all. She has to know you can't stay if those don't get resolved.
> 
> That said, if her weight/lack of exercise is a dealbreaker, what are YOU doing to make that happen? Are you setting up picnics or hikes or bike rides or something? Are you getting babysitter so the two of you can go to the gym together?


Absolutely everything. I grocery shop for us and cook all the meals, because I'm a good cook and know how to cook healthy but good food. She often eats at her office before coming home (delivery food, probably not healthy), and then comes home and doesnt eat my dinner. 

I go to the gym 3x a week and ask her to come all the time. she refuses. I bought her a bunch of passes to spinning class and dance class because she used to do it. she never went. We have a full time nanny every single day after work (plus very expensive daycare for baby during the day), so she has the ability to work out. she wont. I've bought her workout gear. Ive tried everything that I know. She simply doesnt want to, and it seems like her mother's awful influence has just set in. My wife has gained a pretty significant amount of belly weight in 2 years and is now wearing these hideous mumu's everyday to hide the belly, the exact outfit choice of her mother. Its terrifying beyond belief to see my wife looking just like her mother. I cant even describe that fear because of how much I dislike her mother and all that she stands for.


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## MEM2020

The two issues below - sexual disengagement AND unhealthy lifestyle choices - are driven by the same underlying - terribly sad - change in her mindset. 

Which is the change from seeing herself as a sexy and sexual partner, to seeing herself as a mother INSTEAD. 

As she continues to gain weight, she will see herself as more and more a 'mother' as opposed to being the female half of a sexual relationship. 

I don't think she doesn't love you. 

I DO think she gets her excitement (dopamine) boost from work and her comfort (endorphines) from the baby. And that you my man - are no longer viewed as 'essential' personnel in this family. 

And yes in those rare moments of self doubt - she likes having you around. But they sound rare.




cinnabomb said:


> So since our last big MC session, wife has been significantly nicer to me, making more attempts to be aware of my presence, engage with me, and touch/be affectionate. Still no sex, but she has never initiated and the truth is, I don't feel comfortable doing it right now either, because I don't want to send the wrong signals and still do not trust these changes, as it's only been a week.
> 
> And as far as my progress, I have continued to be stronger, stand up for myself when I feel wronged or dismissed, and try to focus on positivity and happiness in my life. Not always easy but I am making a lot of progress and it's been a healthier environment for me.
> 
> But there are some bigger issues I need your advice on.
> 
> Let's say she truly can change in some aspects, and stop neglecting me as she has done for so many years. Let's say she continues to work on her anger management and improves in that field as well. My issues are that there are some things that make it VERY hard for me to picture a continuing life with her, and I'm not sure how to broach them or talk to her about them:
> 
> 1. Sex. I have a strong libido and am sick and tired of a sexless marriage. Not only do we almost never have it, even when we have it, she is prudish in the bed, barely engaged. Is it too much to ask to have her go down on me for 1 minute before sex, to make me feel like a man??? My ideal scenario would be sex nightly, and instead of coming home and immediately putting on gross giant baggy pajamas and pulling them up to her neck, she could put something on that actually showed a little....skin.
> 
> 2. Her recent decision to stop eating healthy and stop exercising and taking care of herself. Since we had the baby something snapped and she starting to act just like her mother....eating horribly and not exercising once in the last 3 years. I see more of her mother in her every day and it's brutal to watch because I know where it will lead....to obesity, disease, laziness, and apathy. And I don't want to be with someone like that. (There is another huge factor here, which is that her parents are moving from the east coast to our city soon, and that means her parents and their 100 bags of potato chips, chocolates, and candies will be 1 mile from my home. This is an enormous stress for me because of how impressionable my wife is around that lifestyle).
> 
> So these are two huge things for me. I really want to still try to make this work. I have made huge progress on my end, and I think she is genuinely trying in some aspects, but we haven't really talked about these two issues much in therapy. And they are HUGE issues for me. Dealbreakers. Any advice?


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## turnera

cinna, what you are describing is YOU trying to CONTROL your wife.


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## MEM2020

Yes



turnera2 said:


> cinna, what you are describing is YOU trying to CONTROL your wife.


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## cinnabomb

MEM11363 said:


> The two issues below - sexual disengagement AND unhealthy lifestyle choices - are driven by the same underlying - terribly sad - change in her mindset.
> 
> Which is the change from seeing herself as a sexy and sexual partner, to seeing herself as a mother INSTEAD.
> 
> As she continues to gain weight, she will see herself as more and more a 'mother' as opposed to being the female half of a sexual relationship.
> 
> I don't think she doesn't love you.
> 
> I DO think she gets her excitement (dopamine) boost from work and her comfort (endorphines) from the baby. And that you my man - are no longer viewed as 'essential' personnel in this family.
> 
> And yes in those rare moments of self doubt - she likes having you around. But they sound rare.


this is spot on. so whats the answer?


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## Palodyne

turnera2 said:


> cinna, what you are describing is YOU trying to CONTROL your wife.



NO. I'm going to push back on this. He is not trying to control her, he is offering her healthy alternatives to better her health and make their relationship stronger, because he loves her. How in the hell, do you call it controlling for him to prepare healthy meals for her, and offer her time at the gym for programs she used to enjoy?

MEM11363, tells cinnabomb that," I DO think she gets her excitement (dopamine) boost from work and her comfort (endorphines) from the baby. And that you my man - are no longer viewed as 'essential' personnel in this family."

So, he is no longer essential? From both your posts, that puts him in a catch 22 situation, doesn't it? Unless!!! He moves on, files for divorce and primary custody, and child support. Then she must depend on her job for (dopamine), and the (endorphins) will be available on her visitation weekends.

OP you have been more than generous to your wife. If she continues to disrespect you and ignore you, and deny you sex. File for divorce, take your kids, and find a better partner. You do not have to settle.


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## syhoybenden

Cripes! 
What a joyless union.
Why bother anymore?


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## TheTruthHurts

Daily sex with an engaged, exciting, loving spouse is a reasonable request and a valid need. In a union, there is room for compromise, but while that compromise may impact frequency (countering with 2-3 times per week and negotiating from there) it should not include compromise on the engaged, exciting and living part. I think you have a problem there.

More in a bit


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## turnera

Palodyne said:


> NO. I'm going to push back on this. He is not trying to control her, he is offering her healthy alternatives to better her health and make their relationship stronger, because he loves her. How in the hell, do you call it controlling for him to prepare healthy meals for her, and offer her time at the gym for programs she used to enjoy?


Because he wants her to be HIS vision of a wife. And she has changed and is no longer that person, so he is pushing - HARD - to turn her back into what he wants. Cooking with the intention of slimming her down. Buying her thing after thing after thing that, if she were to use it, she would slim down. 

That is an attempt to control another person, when he can only control himself. He asks for solutions, and we keep telling him what the solutions are - to change HIMSELF - and he refuses to hear us. He keeps coming back over and over to ask us how to make HER into what he wants. For a magic bean that will turn her back into what he married. 

Notice how it's never about himself? We tell him women are attracted to strong men, he's being weak, and his response is, well, she gets strong men at work. Huh?

I gave suggestions for how he could try to get her to do things with HIM, and thus get exercise, and remember that she liked it, and his response is "I bought her this to use. I bought her that to use." No, that's not what I said. I said for YOU to arrange things to do together that are not blatant attempts to control her. But, once again, he ignored anything that requires HIM to do anything differently, and asks how to make her want him.

That is an attempt to control.


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## TheTruthHurts

@turnera2 is right.

You are responding emotionally with your demands. If your objective is to say "I completely disapprove of your attitude toward weight and diet" then you have communicated clearly. You have also communicated "fat slobs eat garbage and don't work out".

Congratulations.

You seem to be able to string together highly complex rationalization so I'll assume you can also separate your thoughts into simple statements of: needs, desired, worries and judgements,

I suggest you separate these things so you can make reasonable statements about them, and so your W can respond individually with her thoughts and values.

Let me give you a couple of examples of what I mean. My DS18 is 175 lbs of lean muscle and sinus at 6'2". He walked on to gymnastics senior year in HS and almost made state in floor exercises (flipping and jumping and all sorts of crazy things). He has a 6 pack and can work out for 5-10 minutes and do 300 moves and stay fit. He eats sporadically, and binges on junk food, particularly at night. He'll eat a candy bar because he's starved right before dinner than not be hungry at dinner then binge on junk.

So what is the problem? NOTHING!!!! I don't like the junk food and his mothers efforts at dinner unappreciated - but that on ME. He is objectively healthy and fit, and the pure, refined sugar provides the caloric needs without causing any ill effects. I get that you won't believe it, but it's true. He doesn't store any as fat, converts it to glucose without causing insulin spikes, and does fine.

My displeasure with his BEHAVIOR can be addressed by me as his PARENT. Frankly on the basis of manners and consideration if others alone. You are NOT your wife's parent. So your judgement about her behavior is toxic if you use it to shame her.

More in a second


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## farsidejunky

Cinna, there is nothing I can contribute beyond what Turnera has said. She is exactly right.

Your problem is that your wife has become someone you are no longer capable of loving. That ship has sailed, never to return. So now you are asking what can help return your marriage to what it was, when that is simply not possible.

Your response to that is to manipulate her. Notice I said manipulate her, not influence her. Do you know what the difference is between the two? The difference is you are doing it for you, then lying to yourself in saying it is for you or the marriage.

Her ideal of marriage has changed. Yours has not. What you need to do at this point is accept that reality and then make a decision based upon what is, not what you want to be.

Is there room to change the dynamic by changing yourself? Yes, but not to the degree that it will ever return your marriage to what it once was. However, you do have an opportunity to create a new marriage from the ashes of the old one. But first, you have to let go of this idealized, romanticized version of what your marriage once was. 

Sorry, brother.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

... continued. DS18 b - his twin - is 6' (2 inches shorter) and 210 out of season / 180-190 in season.

He gets up early, is a hard worker, eats healthy (but has a sweet tooth), and is disciplined. He gains weight out if sports season but was water polo captain and his team went to state. He's string and barrel chested.

Son1 has horrible eating habits but is lean and healthy. Son 2 has great habits and is disciplined, but doesn't enjoy working out as much, and has a tendency to gain weight (thanks to my genetics).

So you have to separate out habits, behavior, attitudes, and values. But your W does not value working out or eating the way you do. That's her prerogative.

If you only want to be married to someone who values working out, state it and divorce your wife. Otherwise shut up, make work out an option (as you do) and accept her.

If you only want to be married to someone who eats a certain way - be very specific about what you mean - and I do mean specify the foods to eat and not eat. Then show her the menu, let her tell you that you are crazy. Then - make a decision to divorce or accept and DROP IT. One of the other.

Regarding weight, if you abhor fat as much as you indicate, then write down an acceptable weight range for her - and do the same - divorce or accept.

I am not making light of this or being sarcastic or extreme. You have voiced this repeatedly - now be clear and decide.

In fact, I think you are using this as an impossible hurdle for your W. She currently can not meet your standards because they aren't clear and measurable. And when you make them clear and measurable, they kind of sound d0uchy, don't they? Aren't you just disgusted by your W? If you're honest, isn't that just it?

It's a hard thing to accept but I think that's it.

BTW you hide behind your fear of the future. You state yours concerned she'll turn out like her mother. Guess what? That's totally on YOU. That's your fear to own and keep to yourself. If she's not that way now, so be it. You have to judge her based in now - as I spelled out above.

I am concerned about twin a's junk food binging - he could get fat and unhealthy in the future. I can't expect him to have the same belief. It's on me. If he starts to actually get fat and unhealthy - to the point that it concerns HIM - then I can be there to help. Until then it's MY concern. Just like your concern about your wife's future.

Good luck tth


----------



## cinnabomb

please clarify how asking her to JOIN ME at the gym or beach or bike ride, etc, cooking healthy meals so good food is always available, and trying to make it easier for her to work out by gifting passes or getting a nanny is manipulating? I'm trying to make it easier for her to adopt a healthy lifestyle. her parents struggle with diabetes, high blood pressure, gout, and a ton of other health issues and it's always been a huge stress for her and I know she doesnt want our daughter to have those same stresses when we are older. 

And in the past we always adopted healthy living, but something really changed when she got pregnant and gave birth. I don't want her to have to follow her mother's path and live a horrible life of disease and obesity, and yes I will admit that it is a huge turnoff for me to be with someone who is fat and apathetic and lazy and indulgent. 

Are you saying I should communicate this all more clearly to her? I was only waiting because MC told me to be patient about these things and do them in session.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

cinnabomb said:


> please clarify how asking her to JOIN ME at the gym or beach or bike ride, etc, cooking healthy meals so good food is always available, and trying to make it easier for her to work out by gifting passes or getting a nanny is manipulating? I'm trying to make it easier for her to adopt a healthy lifestyle. her parents struggle with diabetes, high blood pressure, gout, and a ton of other health issues and it's always been a huge stress for her and I know she doesnt want our daughter to have those same stresses when we are older.
> 
> And in the past we always adopted healthy living, but something really changed when she got pregnant and gave birth. I don't want her to have to follow her mother's path and live a horrible life of disease and obesity, and yes I will admit that it is a huge turnoff for me to be with someone who is fat and apathetic and lazy and indulgent.
> 
> Are you saying I should communicate this all more clearly to her? I was only waiting because MC told me to be patient about these things and do them in session.


If you're asking me, I think I made it clear. Saying words like "fat and apathetic and lazy" are hardly objective statements of your needs. They are expressions of disgust.

Do you not see that?

The answer is you don't express to your W that she disgusts you if you are seeking to build a better marriage.

If you want to remain married to someone who disgusts you, they actually don't have to do Anything.

So either YOU have to get past the disgust or leave.

BTW the past isn't really relevant, is it? How does she feel about your values now? Does she value exercise and your version of healthy eating? Doesn't sound like it to me.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> please clarify how asking her to JOIN ME at the gym or beach or bike ride, etc, cooking healthy meals so good food is always available, and trying to make it easier for her to work out by gifting passes or getting a nanny is manipulating? I'm trying to make it easier for her to adopt a healthy lifestyle. her parents struggle with diabetes, high blood pressure, gout, and a ton of other health issues and it's always been a huge stress for her and I know she doesnt want our daughter to have those same stresses when we are older.
> 
> And in the past we always adopted healthy living, but something really changed when she got pregnant and gave birth. I don't want her to have to follow her mother's path and live a horrible life of disease and obesity, and yes I will admit that it is a huge turnoff for me to be with someone who is fat and apathetic and lazy and indulgent.
> 
> Are you saying I should communicate this all more clearly to her? I was only waiting because MC told me to be patient about these things and do them in session.


It's completely because you are doing it for a fake reason and because she doesn't know that. You WANT it to happen because it's what YOU want. Because she ignores you and grosses you out. And because you're not willing to leave, for whatever reason; you say it's because you don't want to be away from your child, but who knows if that's the only reason and it's not fear of being alone?

So, in your mind, you are stuck and to avoid being unhappy, you want HER to change to be what YOU want. So you take step after step to make that happen. That's manipulation.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Miserable with her and miserable without her.... one of those has to gain ground as the lesser of two evils

cinna.... are there other women catching your eye feeding your feelings of disgust over your wifes looks?


----------



## JohnA

There is a huge difference between offering and nagging. Nagging is controlling, offered is not. Notice I used offered not offering? 

Your life is becoming a sad rewrite of "the sound and fury". Time to toss this script and start a new one.


----------



## Palodyne

JohnA said:


> There is a huge difference between offering and nagging. Nagging is controlling, offered is not. Notice I used offered not offering?
> 
> Your life is becoming a sad rewrite of "the sound and fury". Time to toss this script and start a new one.


I think this is what I was thinking in my earlier post. Offered is what I felt he was doing. Preparing her healthy lunches, and offering free gym memberships.


----------



## JohnA

Hi @Palodyne 

I thought you had, and was supporting your assertion.


----------



## MEM2020

Cinna,

4 quadrants to every relationship:

1. How you feel about them - independent of how they treat you
2. How you feel about the way they treat you
3. How they feel about you - independent of how they treat you
4. How you feel about the way they treat you






cinnabomb said:


> this is spot on. so whats the answer?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

"In the past she was" this....

"In the past she did" this....

"In the past she liked" this....

Stop living in the past! Holy crap. People change. Why do you think the D rate is so high?

Accept her as she is, now. Or don't. 

Good grief, Cinna. You and this thread walk the same circular path. Break the cycle and stop living in limbo.


----------



## sapientia

MEM11363 said:


> Cinna,
> 
> 4 quadrants to every relationship:
> 
> 1. How you feel about them - independent of how they treat you
> 2. How you feel about the way they treat you
> 3. How they feel about you - independent of how they treat you
> 4. How you feel about the way they treat you


Not poking holes in your excellent framework, I just notice that 2 & 4 are the same.

Perhaps 4 should read "How they feel about the way you treat them."?


----------



## MEM2020

Sapientia,
You are absolutely right. Thank you for pointing that out. 

And as penance for my clumsy writing - I'll try and clarify a point that Turnera made about controlling behavior. 

And Cinnabon - it's important you know that we are all guilty of this from time to time. 

The difference between inspiration and control lies in polarity and frequency. 

Polarity means: Is it about me or is it really about you?
And frequency is easy. If I keep inviting you to do something you've made it clear you don't want to do - that is more about pressure than invitation.




sapientia said:


> Not poking holes in your excellent framework, I just notice that 2 & 4 are the same.
> 
> Perhaps 4 should read "How they feel about the way you treat them."?


----------



## cinnabomb

TheTruthHurts said:


> If you're asking me, I think I made it clear. Saying words like "fat and apathetic and lazy" are hardly objective statements of your needs. They are expressions of disgust.
> 
> Do you not see that?
> 
> The answer is you don't express to your W that she disgusts you if you are seeking to build a better marriage.
> 
> If you want to remain married to someone who disgusts you, they actually don't have to do Anything.
> 
> So either YOU have to get past the disgust or leave.
> 
> BTW the past isn't really relevant, is it? How does she feel about your values now? Does she value exercise and your version of healthy eating? Doesn't sound like it to me.


to clarify, im talking about her mother as "fat, lazy" etc. My wife isnt those things. she HAS gained weight and shirked exercise for some year, but its more of my FEAR that she will turn into her mother.


----------



## cinnabomb

well anyway, we are still doing MC and I am in IC. Both are going well, I feel that progress is being made, even if it means that one day this relationship wont make it, we both have a MUCH deeper understanding of ourselves and each other, and WHY we have had trouble in the last 7 or so years. The MC has said she was shocked at how far I have come to be able to say to wife that I dont think she is a "bad person" because of the years of neglect and even abuse. It's that I know she is different than me, she had different life experiences, and yes she certainly has made mistakes, but I dont think she knowingly hurt me all those years. This was apparently very important for wife to hear. 

MC has also been talking to wife about her default to isolation-type behavior, and how it causes neglect and pain on those around her, as well as trying to work with her on her hair-trigger anger temperment. I think MC has really finally gotten a good understanding of everything happening here. It's taken time but I think it's less about trying to prove things in session, and more about trying to learn and understand. That in itself has had great value to me, not only in this marriage, but in understanding other relationships in my life as well. 

For those of you who say "good grief, just leave her" or whatever, well it's not that simple because the truth is that today isn't horrible. It WAS horrible for some years. But today is vastly improved because of our counseling. So I choose to stay for now and work through it and see where this road goes. But I ask you guys advice for things that plague my mind, like my last quuestions about "what if I am not getting the sex I need or will never get that?". Just looking for your wisdom...doesnt mean that today I am miserable. I am not as happy as I could be, certainly, but I can't walk away from a 15 year relationship without knowing I tried my heart out. Hope that helps to clear things up.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Then work on the doom and gloom language when asking those questions because the language you use to describe your situation makes it sound like the world is crashing around you. Thus the reaction..,, end your misery.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Blossom Leigh said:


> Then work on the doom and gloom language when asking those questions because the language you use to describe your situation makes it sound like the world is crashing around you. Thus the reaction..,, end your misery.


QFT. This has been the downfall on this thread. You build things up in your mind until they are going to explode, and extreme descriptions go into your posts.

Of course we're going to say divorce or change because you can't stay 5 feet into the doors of hell forever.

If your really only projecting your concerns, than that raises another issue to address. If that's the case, you need to learn to contain your triggers and emotions so you don't spin out if control.

Thinking about what might happen is useful only to broadly steer your life. its a soundness check on your direction. It should never be something that you focus on and directly act upon.

Take weight and diet. We hear your base message: MIL disgusts you as a fat, lazy person. You don't want your W to end there.

BUT I wouldn't take any actions TO PREVENT that. You can't influence that which hasn't happened. 

You can talk about it and express your concerns. Then drop it. If W BECOMES fat and lazy, then talk about it and address it as a need you have.

In between you must let it go. It's controlling your thoughts and influencing your actions, mental state and marriage.

The fact is W may chose to let herself gain 30-40 more lbs. it's her choice and her body. Your choices are to stay and support and love her, leave, or ???? The ????? Choice really has no options in it. Continued talking Is nagging, yelling, pouting and berating are control methods. None are good for a marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

C,
If you act towards her - the way you write about her - she likely sees you as very up and down.

Your best case scenario from everything I've read so far is going to be a low conflict, sexless marriage. She will be pure mommy and expects you to accept being pure daddy. 

And I say this next bit as a third party who hopes you succeed: You are a much bigger part of this puzzle than you have been willing to acknowledge. 

Perhaps it's more concisely stated as this: You are WAY more focused on changing her - than changing yourself. I don't expect you to even acknowledge this post - but if you want examples of that - focus issue - I will provide them. 




cinnabomb said:


> well anyway, we are still doing MC and I am in IC. Both are going well, I feel that progress is being made, even if it means that one day this relationship wont make it, we both have a MUCH deeper understanding of ourselves and each other, and WHY we have had trouble in the last 7 or so years. The MC has said she was shocked at how far I have come to be able to say to wife that I dont think she is a "bad person" because of the years of neglect and even abuse. It's that I know she is different than me, she had different life experiences, and yes she certainly has made mistakes, but I dont think she knowingly hurt me all those years. This was apparently very important for wife to hear.
> 
> MC has also been talking to wife about her default to isolation-type behavior, and how it causes neglect and pain on those around her, as well as trying to work with her on her hair-trigger anger temperment. I think MC has really finally gotten a good understanding of everything happening here. It's taken time but I think it's less about trying to prove things in session, and more about trying to learn and understand. That in itself has had great value to me, not only in this marriage, but in understanding other relationships in my life as well.
> 
> For those of you who say "good grief, just leave her" or whatever, well it's not that simple because the truth is that today isn't horrible. It WAS horrible for some years. But today is vastly improved because of our counseling. So I choose to stay for now and work through it and see where this road goes. But I ask you guys advice for things that plague my mind, like my last quuestions about "what if I am not getting the sex I need or will never get that?". Just looking for your wisdom...doesnt mean that today I am miserable. I am not as happy as I could be, certainly, but I can't walk away from a 15 year relationship without knowing I tried my heart out. Hope that helps to clear things up.


----------



## cinnabomb

While I hear what you are saying and totally admit that I AM an emotional person who CAN mentally spin out of control, and I DO have some work to do with those things....to say that I am not working on myself, you dont the first thing about this then. Both the MC and IC have said they are astounded at how much work I have done and progress I have made, and both say it is far more than wife has done and that she has a long way to come to overcome her issues. I have not said even ONE critical word to wife in over 4 months, even though at times it pains me not to say something when she is being dismissive or hurtful or whatever. She has sensitivity to criticism so I told MC I wouldnt say a word and see what happens. Unfortunately, it didnt seem to have much impact on my wife, but the benefit is that it has made it vastly easier for me to deal with some situations that would eat me up in the past. 

I have become more positive and initiating conversation and interaction multiple times a day with her, trying to let my guard down from all the hurt. I am not doing things with covert contracts anymore, only if I truly feel like doing them without expectation of outcomes. The list goes on and on. But yes the bottom line is that although things are improved in that I am not being verbally abused on a daily level, and she is making more effort not to totally ignore and neglect me, there are still major issues in the foundation. I am a person that has always looked far into the future and can usually, with some reasonable probabilty, predict where something is going to end up. It's what made me so financially successful in my past career and business endeavors. 

Sometimes I genuinely wish I was a little more ignorant, and a little more happy-go-lucky, and didn't worry so much about the future, and could just find pure happiness in today. It's really hard for me, because to be honest, if I honestly think this wont work, then why continue to invest in it? The older I get, the less chance I have of finding love in the world, right? That's what goes through my head, and it's a lot to deal with. I'm a person who has an endless amount of love to give...more than maybe most men out there, and I don't hide the fact that I AM an emotionally in tune man. I will cry when I hear a beautiful song that reminds me of a special time or see a precious video of some baby doing something sweet. It's just who I am. I kiss my baby no less than 200 times a day. So imagine for a moment having so much love, putting it all out there, and suddenly, 7 years ago, the reciprocation of it stopped. Just stopped. And nothing I did or tried made it come back. Yes I cant change her. But it's still gets to my soul from time to time....the reality of what has happened. And it hurts, and I bleed. The really messed up part is that I keep feeling bad for HER. I keep thinking that she is a victim in a way to her own flaws and upbringing....that this isn't truly her FAULT and this isnt intentional. She's just different....she's dealing with it and struggling herself. And I feel horrible for her when I think about a life without her. I feel so bad it pains my heart...like am a bad person? She needs me. What if she needs me and I'm not there? Sigh. I don't want to abandon her...despite all this pain. 

But I'm still here and still trying, every day to be a better man and a better person. That's it. 





MEM11363 said:


> C,
> If you act towards her - the way you write about her - she likely sees you as very up and down.
> 
> Your best case scenario from everything I've read so far is going to be a low conflict, sexless marriage. She will be pure mommy and expects you to accept being pure daddy.
> 
> And I say this next bit as a third party who hopes you succeed: You are a much bigger part of this puzzle than you have been willing to acknowledge.
> 
> Perhaps it's more concisely stated as this: You are WAY more focused on changing her - than changing yourself. I don't expect you to even acknowledge this post - but if you want examples of that - focus issue - I will provide them.


----------



## MEM2020

C,

It's a very difficulty situation, no doubt. I don't question your - commitment or engagement at all. 

That said - you would benefit from a 'less is more' situation. 

From what you describe - your wife seems more to tolerate your time together - as opposed to seeking it. I'm not blaming you - just telling you that her unkind behavior is how women act towards husbands they aren't super fond of. 

You often seem angry - when you post. Maybe you aren't - but it seems that way. 

Or at minimum very frustrated. 

If you are mainly here to vent - I'll leave you be. If you want a suggestion I'll make one. 




cinnabomb said:


> While I hear what you are saying and totally admit that I AM an emotional person who CAN mentally spin out of control, and I DO have some work to do with those things....to say that I am not working on myself, you dont the first thing about this then. Both the MC and IC have said they are astounded at how much work I have done and progress I have made, and both say it is far more than wife has done and that she has a long way to come to overcome her issues. I have not said even ONE critical word to wife in over 4 months, even though at times it pains me not to say something when she is being dismissive or hurtful or whatever. She has sensitivity to criticism so I told MC I wouldnt say a word and see what happens. Unfortunately, it didnt seem to have much impact on my wife, but the benefit is that it has made it vastly easier for me to deal with some situations that would eat me up in the past.
> 
> I have become more positive and initiating conversation and interaction multiple times a day with her, trying to let my guard down from all the hurt. I am not doing things with covert contracts anymore, only if I truly feel like doing them without expectation of outcomes. The list goes on and on. But yes the bottom line is that although things are improved in that I am not being verbally abused on a daily level, and she is making more effort not to totally ignore and neglect me, there are still major issues in the foundation. I am a person that has always looked far into the future and can usually, with some reasonable probabilty, predict where something is going to end up. It's what made me so financially successful in my past career and business endeavors.
> 
> Sometimes I genuinely wish I was a little more ignorant, and a little more happy-go-lucky, and didn't worry so much about the future, and could just find pure happiness in today. It's really hard for me, because to be honest, if I honestly think this wont work, then why continue to invest in it? The older I get, the less chance I have of finding love in the world, right? That's what goes through my head, and it's a lot to deal with. I'm a person who has an endless amount of love to give...more than maybe most men out there, and I don't hide the fact that I AM an emotionally in tune man. I will cry when I hear a beautiful song that reminds me of a special time or see a precious video of some baby doing something sweet. It's just who I am. I kiss my baby no less than 200 times a day. So imagine for a moment having so much love, putting it all out there, and suddenly, 7 years ago, the reciprocation of it stopped. Just stopped. And nothing I did or tried made it come back. Yes I cant change her. But it's still gets to my soul from time to time....the reality of what has happened. And it hurts, and I bleed. The really messed up part is that I keep feeling bad for HER. I keep thinking that she is a victim in a way to her own flaws and upbringing....that this isn't truly her FAULT and this isnt intentional. She's just different....she's dealing with it and struggling herself. And I feel horrible for her when I think about a life without her. I feel so bad it pains my heart...like am a bad person? She needs me. What if she needs me and I'm not there? Sigh. I don't want to abandon her...despite all this pain.
> 
> But I'm still here and still trying, every day to be a better man and a better person. That's it.


----------



## cinnabomb

MEM11363 said:


> C,
> 
> It's a very difficulty situation, no doubt. I don't question your - commitment or engagement at all.
> 
> That said - you would benefit from a 'less is more' situation.
> 
> From what you describe - your wife seems more to tolerate your time together - as opposed to seeking it. I'm not blaming you - just telling you that her unkind behavior is how women act towards husbands they aren't super fond of.
> 
> You often seem angry - when you post. Maybe you aren't - but it seems that way.
> 
> Or at minimum very frustrated.
> 
> If you are mainly here to vent - I'll leave you be. If you want a suggestion I'll make one.


Sometimes I am here to vent, but mostly for advice, but often people's advice on these forums are drastic. I cant imagine there is a single person on these forums that has NOT been hurt or doesnt have their own baggage, so they are coming to the table with that. So if I post something like "my wife did ____ today", then undoubtedly I will get a fair amount of "Just serve her with divorce papers already" type of responses. I get it because people have been hurt and dont want to see someone else get hurt in that same way. 

My regret now is that I wish I had known more about counseling and No More Mr Nice Guy and so on 7 years ago when this all started happening. I wish I had stood up for myself THEN. But walking away NOW, when we are in the middle of trying to make some real progress, doesnt seem to make much sense. The daily life is bearable. It isnt wonderful, but it isnt awful either, and I get to see my baby and play with her every morning and evening and I live for that. 

But sure, what advice would you give me, knowing that I am still trying to make it work, but that I am also very unfulfilled and not truly happy, and quite concerned for where this is heading? I don't want to live in denial anymore. I dont want to live with being given "scraps". I want to truly be loved, missed, appreciated, nurtured. But you should also know I am dealing with severe amounts of guilt at the thought of a life without my wife. She was my baby for so many years. She was my girl, always by my side, and I took care of her as if she were even a child. I loved her more than anyone has every loved anything, making every aspect of my life about trying to make her smile, for 15 years. It's hard to walk away from that, even if I'm not happy, because there is so much history there, and it's like saying to myself "was that all for nothing???"

Thanks


----------



## MEM2020

C,

Smiling - you have come a long way from when you first posted.

So there are a couple of distinct but related factors at play here and I will try and help you address them separately. 

1. Everyone likes to feel needed AND desired. It's a beautiful combo in the right proportions. Part of your unhappiness is the huge reduction in both those things. 
2. Guilt - more specifically the fear of feeling abandonment guilt if you leave.

One drawback to being as stressed out as you are - is you tend to see everything in absolutes. Let me splash a gray rainbow on the page for you.

1. Move out of the bedroom (if you'll let me - I can help you here. Do NOT announce this via a long emotional speech. Low affect delivery: We stopped living as husband and wife quite a while ago - our sleeping arrangments should reflect that.

If she argues - stick with: When you want to resume a normal sex life we can revisit this.

And then no matter what she says including threats of divorce: calmly: I'm sorry your upset. 

Nothing else. If you engage in debate - which is your normal pattern - she will find a way to make YOU the bad guy. If you stick to the script she cannot do that.

2. After one month in separate bedrooms, suggest a trial separation. 

3. After three months of separation you will BOTH either want to recon. Or not.

Each time you step back, she can step forward or not. Her choice. 

Being around you creates some bad feelings that you cannot fix. Your lifestyle is healthy. Hers is terrible. She is embarrassed but unmotivated. It is a toxic combo. And you can't fix it. 





cinnabomb said:


> Sometimes I am here to vent, but mostly for advice, but often people's advice on these forums are drastic. I cant imagine there is a single person on these forums that has NOT been hurt or doesnt have their own baggage, so they are coming to the table with that. So if I post something like "my wife did ____ today", then undoubtedly I will get a fair amount of "Just serve her with divorce papers already" type of responses. I get it because people have been hurt and dont want to see someone else get hurt in that same way.
> 
> My regret now is that I wish I had known more about counseling and No More Mr Nice Guy and so on 7 years ago when this all started happening. I wish I had stood up for myself THEN. But walking away NOW, when we are in the middle of trying to make some real progress, doesnt seem to make much sense. The daily life is bearable. It isnt wonderful, but it isnt awful either, and I get to see my baby and play with her every morning and evening and I live for that.
> 
> But sure, what advice would you give me, knowing that I am still trying to make it work, but that I am also very unfulfilled and not truly happy, and quite concerned for where this is heading? I don't want to live in denial anymore. I dont want to live with being given "scraps". I want to truly be loved, missed, appreciated, nurtured. But you should also know I am dealing with severe amounts of guilt at the thought of a life without my wife. She was my baby for so many years. She was my girl, always by my side, and I took care of her as if she were even a child. I loved her more than anyone has every loved anything, making every aspect of my life about trying to make her smile, for 15 years. It's hard to walk away from that, even if I'm not happy, because there is so much history there, and it's like saying to myself "was that all for nothing???"
> 
> Thanks


----------



## cinnabomb

MEM11363 said:


> C,
> 
> Smiling - you have come a long way from when you first posted.
> 
> So there are a couple of distinct but related factors at play here and I will try and help you address them separately.
> 
> 1. Everyone likes to feel needed AND desired. It's a beautiful combo in the right proportions. Part of your unhappiness is the huge reduction in both those things.
> 2. Guilt - more specifically the fear of feeling abandonment guilt if you leave.
> 
> One drawback to being as stressed out as you are - is you tend to see everything in absolutes. Let me splash a gray rainbow on the page for you.
> 
> 1. Move out of the bedroom (if you'll let me - I can help you here. Do NOT announce this via a long emotional speech. Low affect delivery: We stopped living as husband and wife quite a while ago - our sleeping arrangments should reflect that.
> 
> If she argues - stick with: When you want to resume a normal sex life we can revisit this.
> 
> And then no matter what she says including threats of divorce: calmly: I'm sorry your upset.
> 
> Nothing else. If you engage in debate - which is your normal pattern - she will find a way to make YOU the bad guy. If you stick to the script she cannot do that.
> 
> 2. After one month in separate bedrooms, suggest a trial separation.
> 
> 3. After three months of separation you will BOTH either want to recon. Or not.
> 
> Each time you step back, she can step forward or not. Her choice.
> 
> Being around you creates some bad feelings that you cannot fix. Your lifestyle is healthy. Hers is terrible. She is embarrassed but unmotivated. It is a toxic combo. And you can't fix it.


MEM I really appreciate the input but this would be really hard to do for a number of reasons. First off we live in a small condo and dont have the room. Secondly, I dont think that things are THAT bad today where I should do this. I mean, to be honest, there is far less snapping and rudeness and yelling than there has been in years. That doesnt mean its all good, it just means progress has been made in at least reducing the highly toxic environment. 

Let me see if I can explain it better. It used to be super toxic. I mean being snapped at multiple times daily, and when I would voice myself, then a huge yelling (her not me) argument would start, which turned into abandonment (her again) for days at a time until I said sorry. All of that has stopped for the most part. I credit the work of our MC, as well as the fact that wife is probably on better "behavior" knowing that we see MC every week and she wouldnt want to act out, knowing I would bring it up in session. Sometimes I wonder about that actually....like if we stopped MC right now, would wife revert back to her old self, knowing she had no one to check her??? That would be a scary thing to discover. 

So now, the environment in the house is mostly just calm. It's not super loving. Its very boring. Its not a satisfying lifestyle for me. But not super unhealthy or toxic. its like this....wife comes home with baby, I am usually home first since I work my own hours these days. They say hello, I kiss and play with baby, wife says hello to me, usually a hug, and then she goes to bedroom to get on her laptop or sits in living room with her laptop. She is on her laptop from the moment she is home until bed. Sometimes working, sometimes watching shows, etc. Like I said...its very boring. We take turns playing with baby. I cook and eat dinner. Wife often eats a late lunch at work so doesnt eat with me either. I dislike this. I would love us to be a real family, cook together, eat together. She is clueless about things and says "I dont want to eat late, I'm trying to lose weight", but eats horribly during the day and tons of chocolates and sweets, and of course zero exercise. She cant understand why she isnt losing weight. BTW I only cook healthy food and rarely ever carbs and I am a great cook. 

But I fee like I am in the prime of my life in some ways, and I am living like a freaking 80 year old and she seems fine with that. Her parents have been like that for years. I want excitement, and passion, and spontaneity, and adventure, and sex, and fun family togetherness, and all we do is sit around on laptops and binge watch tv. Anyways I think I got off the track a bit. But what I am trying to say is that she really is putting in effort to be a better person, less rude and dismissive and toxic, so I dont think a move now would help. In fact, knowing how she is, if I said "I'm leaving" she wouldnt EVER fight or argue. She'd simply say "ok" and that would be the end of us. She just isnt in the place where she would fight for me in any way. A hard pill to swallow, but the truth. Her mentality is probably "if he doesnt want to be with me then Im not going to fight over him" and the truth is, I would be the same today if she did that. 

Any thoughts about all this? Thanks again.


----------



## MEM2020

C,
This is - hands down - your best post to date. By far your best post.

She is determined to put ALL her energy into career and motherhood - full stop. That's it. She doesn't even care enough for herself - to engage in a healthy lifestyle. 

There won't be any future conflict AS LONG AS you don't push her to engage with you - conversationally - activity wise (sports/exercise) - or sexually. 

As she gets heavier and more out of shape - she gets emotionally further from you - because the barrier to reconnecting with you gets larger and larger. 

So yes - you can have peace - but only if you remain agreeable to the current level of interaction. 





cinnabomb said:


> MEM I really appreciate the input but this would be really hard to do for a number of reasons. First off we live in a small condo and dont have the room. Secondly, I dont think that things are THAT bad today where I should do this. I mean, to be honest, there is far less snapping and rudeness and yelling than there has been in years. That doesnt mean its all good, it just means progress has been made in at least reducing the highly toxic environment.
> 
> Let me see if I can explain it better. It used to be super toxic. I mean being snapped at multiple times daily, and when I would voice myself, then a huge yelling (her not me) argument would start, which turned into abandonment (her again) for days at a time until I said sorry. All of that has stopped for the most part. I credit the work of our MC, as well as the fact that wife is probably on better "behavior" knowing that we see MC every week and she wouldnt want to act out, knowing I would bring it up in session. Sometimes I wonder about that actually....like if we stopped MC right now, would wife revert back to her old self, knowing she had no one to check her??? That would be a scary thing to discover.
> 
> So now, the environment in the house is mostly just calm. It's not super loving. Its very boring. Its not a satisfying lifestyle for me. But not super unhealthy or toxic. its like this....wife comes home with baby, I am usually home first since I work my own hours these days. They say hello, I kiss and play with baby, wife says hello to me, usually a hug, and then she goes to bedroom to get on her laptop or sits in living room with her laptop. She is on her laptop from the moment she is home until bed. Sometimes working, sometimes watching shows, etc. Like I said...its very boring. We take turns playing with baby. I cook and eat dinner. Wife often eats a late lunch at work so doesnt eat with me either. I dislike this. I would love us to be a real family, cook together, eat together. She is clueless about things and says "I dont want to eat late, I'm trying to lose weight", but eats horribly during the day and tons of chocolates and sweets, and of course zero exercise. She cant understand why she isnt losing weight. BTW I only cook healthy food and rarely ever carbs and I am a great cook.
> 
> But I fee like I am in the prime of my life in some ways, and I am living like a freaking 80 year old and she seems fine with that. Her parents have been like that for years. I want excitement, and passion, and spontaneity, and adventure, and sex, and fun family togetherness, and all we do is sit around on laptops and binge watch tv. Anyways I think I got off the track a bit. But what I am trying to say is that she really is putting in effort to be a better person, less rude and dismissive and toxic, so I dont think a move now would help. In fact, knowing how she is, if I said "I'm leaving" she wouldnt EVER fight or argue. She'd simply say "ok" and that would be the end of us. She just isnt in the place where she would fight for me in any way. A hard pill to swallow, but the truth. Her mentality is probably "if he doesnt want to be with me then Im not going to fight over him" and the truth is, I would be the same today if she did that.
> 
> Any thoughts about all this? Thanks again.


----------



## turnera

Honestly, the ONLY way I see that she will ever desire you again is if you become willing to file for legal separation AND file for custody. Because I think she frankly couldn't care less if you're in her life or not. You've given her what she wanted - stability to further her career and a baby. Now that she's successful, she can PAY someone to do whatever it is you do for her.

But if you were to file and let her start seeing the very real possibility that she might not get main custody, a few things might happen. She'll FINALLY gain a little respect for you, maybe. She'll realize you AREN'T just in her life to make her life easy. She'll miss her daughter. And she might take her illusions about what she is owed back down a step or two.


----------



## cinnabomb

MEM11363 said:


> C,
> This is - hands down - your best post to date. By far your best post.
> 
> She is determined to put ALL her energy into career and motherhood - full stop. That's it. She doesn't even care enough for herself - to engage in a healthy lifestyle.
> 
> There won't be any future conflict AS LONG AS you don't push her to engage with you - conversationally - activity wise (sports/exercise) - or sexually.
> 
> As she gets heavier and more out of shape - she gets emotionally further from you - because the barrier to reconnecting with you gets larger and larger.
> 
> So yes - you can have peace - but only if you remain agreeable to the current level of interaction.


You're right. The order is Baby, Career, Herself (indulgence, not really health), and then if there is 1% leftover, Me. So is your advice that I SHOULD start pushing more for things, like spontaneity, sex, etc? It's so hard. I am honestly so scarred and so hurt from the 7 or so years of abuse, being called names, being yelled at and abandoned days at a time, that it's is PHYSICALLY painful for me to even attempt to talk to her at times. Sometimes I forget the past and I try anyways, but then she does this thing a lot where I try to talk and engage with her and she doesn't even respond. This happens multiple times a day and we are barely even together on a daily basis, and it's a huge trigger for me. It makes me feel invisible and unimportant. 

In fact, just this last Sunday she did it like 5 times in the span of a few hours, and on top of that I was really sick with a cold so it was hard enough to take care of myself and try to engage with her, and the last time it happened I would have normally shut myself off, but I voiced my frustration and said "I keep trying to engage with you and you arent even responding so I dont even know if youre listening." At first she was very defensive, raising her voice and snapping saying "I WAS listening" and "I DID respond" and "OK so what do you want??" and I said "to be acknowledged when I am making an effort to connect with you." She said "okay" in a rude way and I left the room and about 20 minutes later she came and gave me a hug and said "Sorry if you felt like I wasnt listening." 

Now I will say this is something that has not happened in YEARS, an unsolicited apology. I dont honestly know if its progress, truly (like she actually FELT remorse), or if its just her not wanting to get in trouble with the MC for her behavior. But at least its something, right? If its not genuine, how would I know?

So back to the subject...should I push for the things I want? I don't know how to break that wall I have because when I let me guard down, I often get hurt like this example above, when she reverts back to her dismissive or "narcissistic" behavior. And as for sex....even though I WANT sex, I don't really want it with her right now, because I dont feel close to her and loving right now. I still feel hurt, deeply. I'm just a bit confused about what I should be pushing for, if anything? 

Oh and Turnera, again, she is powerful and makes a lot of money, and a great mother, and would have the best lawyer in town. I would not get primary custody. She would. And me leaving wouldnt spark anything in her right now, as I mentioned before because she is only recently starting to see what a catch I am, because of all of MC's amazing work. Before, she was caught in her own self-important world, the fame, fortune, power, celebrities, not seeing what an amazingly loving and nurturing husband she had. Only recently she has started to say things like she used to like "that was a funny joke you made" and "that's really nice of you to make that table for our baby girl" or "thank you for cooking dinner for all of us." It's a bit sad that simple words like that have ENORMOUS impact on me, after so many years of nothing. Sometimes I feel like Reek from Game of Thrones. :-(


----------



## MEM2020

C,
You are at the halfway point in your self improvement journey. Halfway. 

When you get close to - fully improved - it will be obvious what to do.

If I actually explained why you are still 50% from completion - you wouldn't accept it. If you keep seeing an IC, eventually you will get it. 

That said - you will KNOW you have arrived when: 
1. You don't feel angry at C2 because you see the giant role you played in this situation. 
2. You no longer look at divorce in a competitive manner.

You will ONLY see the truth - when you WANT to see the truth. And right now - you mostly want to see her half of the marriage.

And this last bit - is a gentle - a friendly heads up. The stronger your desire to tell me how much you've improved - the more certain you ought to be of the accuracy of my assessment. 





cinnabomb said:


> tYou're right. The order is Baby, Career, Herself (indulgence, not really health), and then if there is 1% leftover, Me. So is your advice that I SHOULD start pushing more for things, like spontaneity, sex, etc? It's so hard. I am honestly so scarred and so hurt from the 7 or so years of abuse, being called names, being yelled at and abandoned days at a time, that it's is PHYSICALLY painful for me to even attempt to talk to her at times. Sometimes I forget the past and I try anyways, but then she does this thing a lot where I try to talk and engage with her and she doesn't even respond. This happens multiple times a day and we are barely even together on a daily basis, and it's a huge trigger for me. It makes me feel invisible and unimportant.
> 
> In fact, just this last Sunday she did it like 5 times in the span of a few hours, and on top of that I was really sick with a cold so it was hard enough to take care of myself and try to engage with her, and the last time it happened I would have normally shut myself off, but I voiced my frustration and said "I keep trying to engage with you and you arent even responding so I dont even know if youre listening." At first she was very defensive, raising her voice and snapping saying "I WAS listening" and "I DID respond" and "OK so what do you want??" and I said "to be acknowledged when I am making an effort to connect with you." She said "okay" in a rude way and I left the room and about 20 minutes later she came and gave me a hug and said "Sorry if you felt like I wasnt listening."
> 
> Now I will say this is something that has not happened in YEARS, an unsolicited apology. I dont honestly know if its progress, truly (like she actually FELT remorse), or if its just her not wanting to get in trouble with the MC for her behavior. But at least its something, right? If its not genuine, how would I know?
> 
> So back to the subject...should I push for the things I want? I don't know how to break that wall I have because when I let me guard down, I often get hurt like this example above, when she reverts back to her dismissive or "narcissistic" behavior. And as for sex....even though I WANT sex, I don't really want it with her right now, because I dont feel close to her and loving right now. I still feel hurt, deeply. I'm just a bit confused about what I should be pushing for, if anything?
> 
> Oh and Turnera, again, she is powerful and makes a lot of money, and a great mother, and would have the best lawyer in town. I would not get primary custody. She would. And me leaving wouldnt spark anything in her right now, as I mentioned before because she is only recently starting to see what a catch I am, because of all of MC's amazing work. Before, she was caught in her own self-important world, the fame, fortune, power, celebrities, not seeing what an amazingly loving and nurturing husband she had. Only recently she has started to say things like she used to like "that was a funny joke you made" and "that's really nice of you to make that table for our baby girl" or "thank you for cooking dinner for all of us." It's a bit sad that simple words like that have ENORMOUS impact on me, after so many years of nothing. Sometimes I feel like Reek from Game of Thrones. :-(


----------



## cinnabomb

that sounds about right...halfway point. I mean even where im at now I never thought Id be if you asked me 6 months ago. Have you heard that song Way Down We Go by Kaleo? That's about how I feel all the time these days. There are good days and bad days (or times of the day) and I often find myself asking myself....am I just in denial about my pain? Am I blocking my hurt and anguish by trying to keep super busy all day? And then when I am finally in bed and with my thoughts, I break down and cry, realizing that I devoted every aspect of my life to a woman that no longer seems to care about me or acknowledge me at all? Yes, I know I played some role in this, but I gues you had to be there to understand it. You'd have been shocked too, it was like jekyll and hyde. Ive never seen anything like it. I wish I HAD been stronger back then to have boundaries. I was trying to be nice. Thats all I ever do. 

The crazy **** is that I still love her so much and actually feel bad for HER, something I havent felt before. Before I was just angry at her. "It's all her fault". Now I realize that she too is a victim to her her own faults and insecurities and upbringing and family issues. And It's possible she doesnt even know WTF she is even doing. she toughened up to survive at her job. She became ruthless and numb because thats what she had to do to swim. She didnt say to herself "Im going to neglect and abuse my husband every day for 7 years". I know that now. This was a major poit for me to finally understand this. Doesnt mean I give her a pass or what she did was ok. It wasnt. It was neglectful and abusive. It still is in many ways. But it just means that I now am able to understand it more...that it wasnt just about me...or maybe even barely about me. 

So here we go. what does it mean to me? I dont know. Im lost. I look at her and weep. I love her so much and miss my girl. She was my girl my everything and I long for the past even though I know it's gone. I cant seem to let that go. I want the past so bad it hurts. I would literally write a check for every dollar I have to have that girl back again. And if you knew how thrifty I am and how much money that is, you would understand how strong of a statement that is. But thats not real. So what do i do, stay or go? I dont know. I'm trying. There are times I want to reach out and put my hand on her cheek and tell her I love her, but I dont because Im still too hurt and truth is, I know that the girl she is today is not the same....she's not going to "snap out of it" and suddenly be my girl. If I did that, she'd be sweet to e for an hour but sooner or later it would dissipate. She isnt that person anymore. 

I wish someone could tell me WTF to do to make her love me in that way again. But no one has so I guess that means its not possible. What are your thoughts? Should I be as loving as possible? Put it all out there and see what happens? Or do I save myself the anguish and toughen up and be distant? Ive thought about writing her a lengthy email with my feelings but havent done it because I thought she would just take it as an attack. 

Thanks in advance and goodnight.


----------



## MattMatt

Can't recall if this has been covered before, but is there a possibility of mental illness, hormonal problems, etc?


----------



## jld

Some people can carry a spouse fully, some partially, and some not at all. Your wife seems to be in the last category. 

If you cannot accept that, and develop your own strength to carry her (which is what I think she really needs), then I think you would be doing both of you a favor by divorcing her. You are not doing either of you a favor by wishing her to be something she is not, and seemingly writhing in resentment because of it.

Are you still in IC? What is your therapist currently advising you?


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> Some people can carry a spouse fully, some partially, and some not at all. Your wife seems to be in the last category.
> 
> If you cannot accept that, and develop your own strength to carry her (which is what I think she really needs), then I think you would be doing both of you a favor by divorcing her. You are not doing either of you a favor by wishing her to be something she is not, and seemingly writhing in resentment because of it.
> 
> Are you still in IC? What is your therapist currently advising you?


This sounds awfully like it is all HIS fault. 

HE should...

HE needs to...

HE must...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> This sounds awfully like it is all HIS fault.
> 
> HE should...
> 
> HE needs to...
> 
> HE must...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is the one here asking for advice.


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> He is the one here asking for advice.


I am fully aware of that fact.

I sm questioning the wisdom of telling the abused partner in a relationship to learn to "Suck it up." Which was the first part of your advice.

You then modified it to "Well, Suck it up or divorce her."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> I am fully aware of that fact.
> 
> I sm questioning the wisdom of telling the abused partner in a relationship to learn to "Suck it up." Which was the first part of your advice.
> 
> You then modified it to "Well, Suck it up or divorce her."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think abuse is a misuse of power by a person with greater power. His wife does not have greater power. 

She is definitely not treating him with the care he would like. But that does not mean she is abusing him.

I am not telling him to "suck it up." I do think that by not taking everything personally, and becoming stronger in himself, he could turn the relationship around.

But divorce is certainly an option, too.


----------



## BobSimmons

cinnabomb said:


> I look at her and weep.


You seem to weep, sob or cry very easily.

Your wife seems hardcore, a boss..

Weeping, crying..not very endearing.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I think abuse is a misuse of power by a person with greater power. His wife does not have greater power.
> 
> She is definitely not treating him with the care he would like. But that does not mean she is abusing him.
> 
> I am not telling him to "suck it up." I do think that by not taking everything personally, and becoming stronger in himself, he could turn the relationship around.
> 
> But divorce is certainly an option, too.


Power in a relationship is not necessarily tied to physical strength. Usually the power rests in the person who cares the least about the relationship. In this case, her.

Or are you suggesting that it's not possible for a woman to abuse a man?


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Power in a relationship is not necessarily tied to physical strength. Usually the power rests in the person who cares the least about the relationship. In this case, her.
> 
> Or are you suggesting that it's not possible for a woman to abuse a man?


If the woman has greater power, yes it is possible for her to abuse him.

I do not think she has greater power. I think he is simply choosing not to access his own power. That does not make him a victim.

She is justifiably unimpressed. I am actually surprised she is still with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> If the woman has greater power, yes it is possible for her to abuse him.
> 
> I do not think she has greater power. I think he is simply choosing not to access his own power. That does not make him a victim.
> 
> She is justifiably unimpressed. I am actually surprised she is still with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


7 years of emotional abandonment and neglect topped off with a nice helping of verbal insults and put-downs doesn't constitute abuse in your mind jld? I'm kind of wondering now what does. 

Either way, she's overweight, overbearing and a real b*tch, he's fit, makes good money, babysits regularly and allows her to treat him like $hit. Why would she want to get rid of him? Her options seem more limited than his.

I'm not sure any of your 'real men' out there would want to have much to do with her TBH.


----------



## jld

Tron said:


> 7 years of emotional abandonment and neglect topped off with a nice helping of verbal insults and put-downs doesn't constitute abuse in your mind jld? I'm kind of wondering now what does.
> 
> Either way, she's overweight, overbearing and a real b*tch, he's fit, makes good money, babysits regularly and allows her to treat him like $hit. Why would she want to get rid of him? Her options seem more limited than his.
> 
> I'm not sure any of your 'real men' out there would want to have much to do with her TBH.


That is his feeling about it, Tron. Not necessarily hers. And it comes out of a victim framework, which I do not think is helpful to him.

I do not believe he has less power than she does. I believe he has more. He is simply choosing not to access it.

He needs to change how he sees himself vis a vis her. He is not a victim. He is not abused. He is simply not receiving the treatment he wants, and I believe he has the potential to change that, by first changing himself.

I think she would be okay with his leaving. Other than not seeing her baby, it might be less stressful for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> That is his feeling about it, Tron. Not necessarily hers. And it comes out of a victim framework, which I do not think is helpful to him.
> 
> *I do not believe he has less power than she does. I believe he has more. He is simply choosing not to access it.*
> 
> He needs to change how he sees himself vis a vis her. He is not a victim. He is not abused. He is simply not receiving the treatment he wants, and I believe he has the potential to change that, by first changing himself.
> 
> I think she would be okay with his leaving. Other than not seeing her baby, it might be less stressful for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What are you basing this on?


----------



## MattMatt

Nucking Futs said:


> What are you basing this on?


The concept that men are always stronger, wiser, smarter and better than women. That they are the leaders in a relationship. Well, that *is* right, isn't it? 

Yeah, for sure. Of course it is.

Or maybe not...



















Oh, so maybe not, huh?

The problem with some people is that they have *no* concept of what it is like for someone who finds themselves trapped within an abusive relationship.

None whatsoever. 

It creeps up on you, insidiously. The man who was your gorgeous, handsome, kind lover? When did he turn into the monster you now, suddenly, see before you?

Or the woman who was your gorgeous, handsome, kind lover? When did she turn into the monster you now, suddenly, see before you?


----------



## MattMatt

MattMatt said:


> The concept that men are always stronger, wiser, smarter and better than women. That they are the leaders in a relationship. Well, that *is* right, isn't it?
> 
> Yeah, for sure. Of course it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! So maybe not, huh?
> 
> The problem with some people is that they have *no* concept of what it is like for someone who finds themselves trapped within an abusive relationship.
> 
> None whatsoever.
> 
> It creeps up on you, insidiously. The man who was your gorgeous, handsome, kind lover? When did he turn into the monster you now, suddenly, see before you?
> 
> Or the woman who was your gorgeous, handsome, kind lover? When did she turn into the monster you now, suddenly, see before you?


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> What are you basing this on?


According to Gottman's research, women tend to accept influence from men. Men tend not to accept influence from women. That gives men power over women.

If you have that power, why not use it wisely?


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> According to Gottman's research, women tend to accept influence from men. Men tend not to accept influence from women. That gives men power over women.
> 
> If you have that power, why not use it wisely?


I am unsure that influence always equals power.


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> I am unsure that influence always equals power.


If that influence results in their getting what they want, then I think we could call that power.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> According to Gottman's research, women tend to accept influence from men. Men tend not to accept influence from women. That gives men power over women.
> 
> If you have that power, why not use it wisely?


So because one guy says that women in general are more inclined to accept influence from men than men in general are to accept influence from women you believe that this particular woman is following the lead of this particular man despite the fact that nothing he has posted in this thread would lead any rational person to that conclusion? Is that what you're telling me?


----------



## sokillme

cinnabomb said:


> Sometimes I feel like Reek from Game of Thrones. :-(


Go get some help for your deep seeded insecurity, and separate from this toxic abuser. Or accept there will never be anything better with her. This is your life, it isn't going to change unless you change it. And it isn't going to change with her. 

What exactly do you even get from this relationship? There must be something. Why would anyone stay?


----------



## sokillme

Tron said:


> 7 years of emotional abandonment and neglect topped off with a nice helping of verbal insults and put-downs doesn't constitute abuse in your mind jld? I'm kind of wondering now what does.
> 
> Either way, she's overweight, overbearing and a real b*tch, he's fit, makes good money, babysits regularly and allows her to treat him like $hit. Why would she want to get rid of him? Her options seem more limited than his.
> 
> I'm not sure any of your 'real men' out there would want to have much to do with her TBH.


Never argue with a bigot. jld is bigoted against men, it's not worth it to try to argue with her just see her advice for what it is.


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> So because one guy says that women in general are more inclined to accept influence from men than men in general are to accept influence from women you believe that this particular woman is following the lead of this particular man despite the fact that nothing he has posted in this thread would lead any rational person to that conclusion? Is that what you're telling me?


She is waiting to follow his lead. One time when he showed leadership, a few months back, they had a nice evening together.

And that "one guy" is the most acclaimed marriage researcher of our time.


----------



## cinnabomb

MattMatt said:


> Can't recall if this has been covered before, but is there a possibility of mental illness, hormonal problems, etc?


Wow, a lot of discussion and some of it was really on point and some not so much. Ok I want to try an address a bunch of points and provide some clarity.

I dont have a clue about mental illness, although if you read the list off from "narcissistic personality disorder" that was almost exactly my experience for the last 7 years. Yes it was shocking and yes it came out of nowhere. Im talking total 180 in personality. Not justifying it, just explaining that it coincided with a HUGE change in her career, going from a mid level corporate position to a salary of 4x that amount working in the shark infested waters of a hollywood talent agency of all brutally agressive men, and then leaving and starting her own company with her partner and being the boss with 20 people under her and nearly doubling her salary again, also rubbing elbows with A listers. Its akin to taking some guy off the street and giving him Kanye West money in a few short years and then seeing if that person can still remain "grounded" and "sane". 

She wasnt equipped to handle it, but that wasnt the part that caused so much hurt. JLD, you dont have a clue what youre saying and honestly sound bitter and angry and Im not going to even argue with you. My wife came home to a clean home with dinner cooked every night (BTW I work full time and also own and manage properties on the side and also make 6 figures) and Id have a smile on my face, staying up as late as it took until she got home, and she would literally go straight to bed, ignore me, and if I said anything about how I missed her and wanted quality time, she would literally lose control, yell, call me names and curse, slam doors, and use me as a metaphoric punching bag, never even allowing me to speak or have a conversation. This was a few times a week every week. I never raised my voice, called her names, or ever even walked away from an argument. I always apologized even when I felt she was wrong (she never apologized first, not once in 7 years). So for you to think that's not abuse, then you dont know a thing because I wouldnt wish that experience on my worst enemy. (and yes I know now that always being calm and always apologizing was not the answer either, but I'm making a point that I always tried to be the "good guy" and never add fuel to her anger). 

Matt yes she has some history of anger management issues. she had neglectful and self-involved parents and it caused her some deep wounds that only surfaced later in life. she is seeing IC and I am as well for my own "nice guy" tendencies. My IC says to continue on the path but to also try to find some happiness for myself, and that being a little selfish is ok. Something it took my whole life to learn and I am really coming along.

Nucking, you're right. I adored her in the later years more than she did to me. And I dont want you guys to think I'm some whiney weak guy walking around and not being lovable. Im a man. I'm great at the things I choose to do. I've made 6 figures for 15 years and completely maintained 4 properties, and found the time to write and publish a novel, change my entire career to screenwriting, and take care of my family (close and extended on both sides), and when tough decisions need to get made, everyone turns to me to make the best and logical one. My friends and family all have deep respect for me, and consider me in many ways to be their "leader". I played varsity ball in high school, shot in the 70s when I used to golf, and workout 3x a week, and yes Bob, I am still a sensitive guy, but the abuse from the last 7 years have really F-ed me up bad. I never cried this much because there is nothing in the world I cared about more than her and to see this happening before my eyes was devastating. 

However, you talk about power....youre right. She DOES have more than me. Because she is lost in herself and her world. Im just a guy at home who used to be her excitement and her rock and her world. Now she has fame and fortune and money and power. She answers to no one. And she doesnt see me as essential because she can pay anybody to do anything she wants. She lost herself along the way, simple as that. When I was making a quarter mill a year, I still never spent a dollar more than I did the year before. I still buy clothes at costco and sell stuff on ebay. Yes wed have some nice dinners and some vacations, but I remained grounded and humble because thats how I was raised. My wife wasnt able to maintain that....it's like she had something to prove to the world and when she finally got that successful, she wanted the purses and cars and 2M house to show everyone "look at me". Me....I'm perfectly content living in our 2 bedroom condo and with a fat stack in the bank for my daughter or a rainy day. 

Last thing I want to answer is Sokillme. What do I get? We have 15 years together and 10 of them or so were pretty amazing. I have saved and compiled over 100k photos of our life until now, our vacations and birthdays and holidays and dinners and there is so much history there. I love some of her family and she mine. We have a baby together. And the biggest thing is this: TODAY's atmosphere is not like what it was before our marriage counseling. Back then, if I had known what I know now, I would have walked out the f-kin door. But she has definitely made some improvement, and working on her temper and anger and bossiness and rudeness. And I am working on my sensitivity and codependency. So everyday is not miserable anymore. We have beautiful moments, mostly with the baby, in the morning, in the evening, and playing with our daughter. I wish we still had some great moments with just the two of us, but my wife doesnt seem connected to me anymore. Literally she will not touch me for days at a time. It's hard for me, being an affectionate person. It's strange though because with our baby she is SUPER affectionate. 

So what is there to lose? A lot. Like I said...I still love her so much and feel bad for her. She isn't always known for making the best decisions in life, often choosing to "learn the hard way". It's tough to see someone you love do this. And I don't think she even knows how much it actually WOULD change her world if I wasn't around. I'm taken for granted. All I do for her and this family, when sh-t goes down I step up and handle it....she doesnt realize that would be gone. She wouldn't be able to handle it in tough times is my guess and I don't think she gets that. Me? I'm so used to being on my own for 7 years that I could certainly handle it, but being away from my baby...that's a whole nother thing. I dont think I could handle that well. I'm very involved and adore her, making her custom toys and baby furniture and artwork all the time. Also, I dont want to look back and think "the last 15 years were a waste" if I leave. So that's the dillemma...because I need love. I want love. I want to be liked and adored and make a woman excited to be with me. It's funny....I have a lot of friends, all of whom like me and consider me the hilarious one in the group. All of the wives of my friends all say how wonderful of a person I am and a great father and think I'm fun to hang out with. And of course my baby thinks I'm hilarious. It's like they all appreciate me for me and my wife is the only one who doesn't care, not ever laughing at my jokes and often not even answering me when i'm talking to her. It's strange. 

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to be detailed. Feel like im at a crossroads, but you tell me?


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> I love her so much and miss my girl. She was my girl my everything and I long for the past even though I know it's gone. I cant seem to let that go. I want the past so bad it hurts.


That's what therapy is for? How often are you going?


----------



## turnera

turnera said:


> That's what therapy is for? How often are you going?


And you're not at a crossroads until you're seriously considering leaving her.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

Why is it you believe that his wife isn't more powerful than C?

Let's break it down: 
The mechanics of life are a mix of factors. First and foremost is money. She's the main breadwinner. 

Emotionally - she doesn't appear to need C. 

What is the source of his power in the marriage? 

And just to be clear - even though there IS a clear power imbalance:
1. C is fully capable of supporting himself. 
And
2. C knows that if he leaves, their child will continue to be well cared for

That means C is free to leave at any time. As he was free to leave before they started trying to have a baby. 

It is - very sad - when someone says: I've been abused for many years. And 5 (or so) years into being abused I chose to have a child with my abuser. 

When C is able to own his contribution to the marriage - he might be able to improve it. Until that happens - it's hard to see how he can improve it. 

This marriage is an excellent example of what happens when you have love without compatibility. 





jld said:


> I think abuse is a misuse of power by a person with greater power. His wife does not have greater power.
> 
> She is definitely not treating him with the care he would like. But that does not mean she is abusing him.
> 
> I am not telling him to "suck it up." I do think that by not taking everything personally, and becoming stronger in himself, he could turn the relationship around.
> 
> But divorce is certainly an option, too.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Cinna,

For some reason you seem to think that relationships are like investments.

They aren't.

Putting 'time in' does not guarantee that you'll reap benefits in the future.

And, ending a relationship doesn't mean it was 'a waste'. Some relationships just run their course, you know? Because people change.

If things are bad NOW, in the present, and it doesn't look like the relationship will improve because one partner refuses to grow...WALK AWAY. Learn from it, cherish the good memories, and go live YOUR life.


----------



## MEM2020

C,
You aren't really at a cross road - yet. Not even close. You've stopped fighting by accepting a low engagement marriage. 

You are much less unhappy. But you aren't at all happy. 

Let me take you through my learning curve here on TAM. In the beginning I used to ask folks to rate themselves - as partners. 

That my man - is a pointless exercise that I no longer employ. 

Now I ask the following questions. How much does your partner crave:
- Your company and conversation
- Your non sexual affection
- Sex

That's it. The answers to those questions - determine - the strength of your marital bond. 





cinnabomb said:


> Wow, a lot of discussion and some of it was really on point and some not so much. Ok I want to try an address a bunch of points and provide some clarity.
> 
> I dont have a clue about mental illness, although if you read the list off from "narcissistic personality disorder" that was almost exactly my experience for the last 7 years. Yes it was shocking and yes it came out of nowhere. Im talking total 180 in personality. Not justifying it, just explaining that it coincided with a HUGE change in her career, going from a mid level corporate position to a salary of 4x that amount working in the shark infested waters of a hollywood talent agency of all brutally agressive men, and then leaving and starting her own company with her partner and being the boss with 20 people under her and nearly doubling her salary again, also rubbing elbows with A listers. Its akin to taking some guy off the street and giving him Kanye West money in a few short years and then seeing if that person can still remain "grounded" and "sane".
> 
> She wasnt equipped to handle it, but that wasnt the part that caused so much hurt. JLD, you dont have a clue what youre saying and honestly sound bitter and angry and Im not going to even argue with you. My wife came home to a clean home with dinner cooked every night (BTW I work full time and also own and manage properties on the side and also make 6 figures) and Id have a smile on my face, staying up as late as it took until she got home, and she would literally go straight to bed, ignore me, and if I said anything about how I missed her and wanted quality time, she would literally lose control, yell, call me names and curse, slam doors, and use me as a metaphoric punching bag, never even allowing me to speak or have a conversation. This was a few times a week every week. I never raised my voice, called her names, or ever even walked away from an argument. I always apologized even when I felt she was wrong (she never apologized first, not once in 7 years). So for you to think that's not abuse, then you dont know a thing because I wouldnt wish that experience on my worst enemy. (and yes I know now that always being calm and always apologizing was not the answer either, but I'm making a point that I always tried to be the "good guy" and never add fuel to her anger).
> 
> Matt yes she has some history of anger management issues. she had neglectful and self-involved parents and it caused her some deep wounds that only surfaced later in life. she is seeing IC and I am as well for my own "nice guy" tendencies. My IC says to continue on the path but to also try to find some happiness for myself, and that being a little selfish is ok. Something it took my whole life to learn and I am really coming along.
> 
> Nucking, you're right. I adored her in the later years more than she did to me. And I dont want you guys to think I'm some whiney weak guy walking around and not being lovable. Im a man. I'm great at the things I choose to do. I've made 6 figures for 15 years and completely maintained 4 properties, and found the time to write and publish a novel, change my entire career to screenwriting, and take care of my family (close and extended on both sides), and when tough decisions need to get made, everyone turns to me to make the best and logical one. My friends and family all have deep respect for me, and consider me in many ways to be their "leader". I played varsity ball in high school, shot in the 70s when I used to golf, and workout 3x a week, and yes Bob, I am still a sensitive guy, but the abuse from the last 7 years have really F-ed me up bad. I never cried this much because there is nothing in the world I cared about more than her and to see this happening before my eyes was devastating.
> 
> However, you talk about power....youre right. She DOES have more than me. Because she is lost in herself and her world. Im just a guy at home who used to be her excitement and her rock and her world. Now she has fame and fortune and money and power. She answers to no one. And she doesnt see me as essential because she can pay anybody to do anything she wants. She lost herself along the way, simple as that. When I was making a quarter mill a year, I still never spent a dollar more than I did the year before. I still buy clothes at costco and sell stuff on ebay. Yes wed have some nice dinners and some vacations, but I remained grounded and humble because thats how I was raised. My wife wasnt able to maintain that....it's like she had something to prove to the world and when she finally got that successful, she wanted the purses and cars and 2M house to show everyone "look at me". Me....I'm perfectly content living in our 2 bedroom condo and with a fat stack in the bank for my daughter or a rainy day.
> 
> Last thing I want to answer is Sokillme. What do I get? We have 15 years together and 10 of them or so were pretty amazing. I have saved and compiled over 100k photos of our life until now, our vacations and birthdays and holidays and dinners and there is so much history there. I love some of her family and she mine. We have a baby together. And the biggest thing is this: TODAY's atmosphere is not like what it was before our marriage counseling. Back then, if I had known what I know now, I would have walked out the f-kin door. But she has definitely made some improvement, and working on her temper and anger and bossiness and rudeness. And I am working on my sensitivity and codependency. So everyday is not miserable anymore. We have beautiful moments, mostly with the baby, in the morning, in the evening, and playing with our daughter. I wish we still had some great moments with just the two of us, but my wife doesnt seem connected to me anymore. Literally she will not touch me for days at a time. It's hard for me, being an affectionate person. It's strange though because with our baby she is SUPER affectionate.
> 
> So what is there to lose? A lot. Like I said...I still love her so much and feel bad for her. She isn't always known for making the best decisions in life, often choosing to "learn the hard way". It's tough to see someone you love do this. And I don't think she even knows how much it actually WOULD change her world if I wasn't around. I'm taken for granted. All I do for her and this family, when sh-t goes down I step up and handle it....she doesnt realize that would be gone. She wouldn't be able to handle it in tough times is my guess and I don't think she gets that. Me? I'm so used to being on my own for 7 years that I could certainly handle it, but being away from my baby...that's a whole nother thing. I dont think I could handle that well. I'm very involved and adore her, making her custom toys and baby furniture and artwork all the time. Also, I dont want to look back and think "the last 15 years were a waste" if I leave. So that's the dillemma...because I need love. I want love. I want to be liked and adored and make a woman excited to be with me. It's funny....I have a lot of friends, all of whom like me and consider me the hilarious one in the group. All of the wives of my friends all say how wonderful of a person I am and a great father and think I'm fun to hang out with. And of course my baby thinks I'm hilarious. It's like they all appreciate me for me and my wife is the only one who doesn't care, not ever laughing at my jokes and often not even answering me when i'm talking to her. It's strange.
> 
> Sorry for the long post, just wanted to be detailed. Feel like im at a crossroads, but you tell me?


----------



## Tron

I think that your W is simply one of those people that won't know what she had until you say you've had enough of her s*** and walk out the door. 

Then and only then will she realize what a f****** c*** she has been. 

And even then she's more than likely to get super pi$$ed at you because she will then also realize she is going to lose half of everything she has worked for and pay you a small fortune in alimony. 

And that's really kind of sad.

You're getting to where you need to be Cinnabomb. It has been slow but MEM's right, it is noticeable.


----------



## cinnabomb

MEM11363 said:


> C,
> You aren't really at a cross road - yet. Not even close. You've stopped fighting by accepting a low engagement marriage.
> 
> You are much less unhappy. But you aren't at all happy.
> 
> Let me take you through my learning curve here on TAM. In the beginning I used to ask folks to rate themselves - as partners.
> 
> That my man - is a pointless exercise that I no longer employ.
> 
> Now I ask the following questions. How much does your partner crave:
> - Your company and conversation
> - Your non sexual affection
> - Sex
> 
> That's it. The answers to those questions - determine - the strength of your marital bond.



- Your company and conversation - Well, it's complicated. We chat multiple times a day on instant messenger, and she likes to tell me about her day and update me about her work and our baby, etc. She likes knowing I'm proud of her and that I am there when she needs me. We dont talk as much in person, but we are working on this. But I dont know...sometimes she doesnt seem to need my company at all. She rarely, if ever, asks to go out with JUST me for dinner or anything else. With baby, all the time, but never just me. We used to date night every weekend and shed be super excited about them. Now if we try, its forced and awkward and I have stopped initiating them altogether. 

- Your non sexual affection - She knows from therapy that she is the neglectful and less affectionate one, and our MC has told her multiple times that she needs to be more giving with the things that I need, mainly attention, affection, and acknowledgment that I am talking to her or making an effort to connect with her. So when she does kiss me on the cheek before leaving the house in the morning, she always says "me too", wanting one as well. Similarly with a hug, so its unusual and confusing to me and I dont really know the answer to this. If I were to guess, because she is breastfeeding baby 20 times a day and snuggling her 20 times a day, I think she gets the majority of that closeness and affection from her and doesnt need much or any from me. 

- Sex - non existent. She has never initiated sex, at least not in the last 7 years, and I stopped in the last couple years for the most part because I got so tired of her rejections. She would reject me like 90% of the time I tried to be intimate and even when we would have sex, she was barely even alive during it which was not enjoyable at all. Now I'm still so hurt and its so awkward that I dont even want it from her (even though I need it bad as I have a very strong libido).


----------



## cinnabomb

Tron said:


> I think that your W is simply one of those people that won't know what she had until you say you've had enough of her s*** and walk out the door.
> 
> Then and only then will she realize what a f****** c*** she has been.
> 
> And even then she's more than likely to get super pi$$ed at you because she will then also realize she is going to lose half of everything she has worked for and pay you a small fortune in alimony.
> 
> And that's really kind of sad.
> 
> You're getting to where you need to be Cinnabomb. It has been slow but MEM's right, it is noticeable.


tron youre new to this thread so you probably havent read everything about me, but I could give a flying F-ck about money. Id choose love over money any day of the week and I'm not exaggerating that I'd give up everything to have it again. Also, roughly half of our savings are mine because I was working and making a lot at least 6 years before she started doing well so we have both contributed pretty equally over the 15 years to our savings. So she wouldnt care to give me what I earned and saved either. Unless she's delusional and her psychotic business partner gets in her ear and even then I dont give a f_ck, take it all.


----------



## MattMatt

cinnabomb said:


> Wow, a lot of discussion and some of it was really on point and some not so much. Ok I want to try an address a bunch of points and provide some clarity.
> 
> I dont have a clue about mental illness, although if you read the list off from "narcissistic personality disorder" that was almost exactly my experience for the last 7 years. Yes it was shocking and yes it came out of nowhere. Im talking total 180 in personality. Not justifying it, just explaining that it coincided with a HUGE change in her career, going from a mid level corporate position to a salary of 4x that amount working in the shark infested waters of a hollywood talent agency of all brutally agressive men, and then leaving and starting her own company with her partner and being the boss with 20 people under her and nearly doubling her salary again, also rubbing elbows with A listers. Its akin to taking some guy off the street and giving him Kanye West money in a few short years and then seeing if that person can still remain "grounded" and "sane".
> 
> She wasnt equipped to handle it, but that wasnt the part that caused so much hurt.* JLD, you dont have a clue what youre saying* and honestly sound bitter and angry and Im not going to even argue with you. My wife came home to a clean home with dinner cooked every night (BTW I work full time and also own and manage properties on the side and also make 6 figures) and Id have a smile on my face, staying up as late as it took until she got home, and she would literally go straight to bed, ignore me, and if I said anything about how I missed her and wanted quality time, she would literally lose control, yell, call me names and curse, slam doors, and use me as a metaphoric punching bag, never even allowing me to speak or have a conversation. This was a few times a week every week. I never raised my voice, called her names, or ever even walked away from an argument. I always apologized even when I felt she was wrong (she never apologized first, not once in 7 years). So for you to think that's not abuse, then you dont know a thing because I wouldnt wish that experience on my worst enemy. (and yes I know now that always being calm and always apologizing was not the answer either, but I'm making a point that I always tried to be the "good guy" and never add fuel to her anger).
> 
> Matt yes she has some history of anger management issues. she had neglectful and self-involved parents and it caused her some deep wounds that only surfaced later in life. she is seeing IC and I am as well for my own "nice guy" tendencies. My IC says to continue on the path but to also try to find some happiness for myself, and that being a little selfish is ok. Something it took my whole life to learn and I am really coming along.
> 
> Nucking, you're right. I adored her in the later years more than she did to me. And I dont want you guys to think I'm some whiney weak guy walking around and not being lovable. Im a man. I'm great at the things I choose to do. I've made 6 figures for 15 years and completely maintained 4 properties, and found the time to write and publish a novel, change my entire career to screenwriting, and take care of my family (close and extended on both sides), and when tough decisions need to get made, everyone turns to me to make the best and logical one. My friends and family all have deep respect for me, and consider me in many ways to be their "leader". I played varsity ball in high school, shot in the 70s when I used to golf, and workout 3x a week, and yes Bob, I am still a sensitive guy, but the abuse from the last 7 years have really F-ed me up bad. I never cried this much because there is nothing in the world I cared about more than her and to see this happening before my eyes was devastating.
> 
> However, you talk about power....youre right. She DOES have more than me. Because she is lost in herself and her world. Im just a guy at home who used to be her excitement and her rock and her world. Now she has fame and fortune and money and power. She answers to no one. And she doesnt see me as essential because she can pay anybody to do anything she wants. She lost herself along the way, simple as that. When I was making a quarter mill a year, I still never spent a dollar more than I did the year before. I still buy clothes at costco and sell stuff on ebay. Yes wed have some nice dinners and some vacations, but I remained grounded and humble because thats how I was raised. My wife wasnt able to maintain that....it's like she had something to prove to the world and when she finally got that successful, she wanted the purses and cars and 2M house to show everyone "look at me". Me....I'm perfectly content living in our 2 bedroom condo and with a fat stack in the bank for my daughter or a rainy day.
> 
> Last thing I want to answer is Sokillme. What do I get? We have 15 years together and 10 of them or so were pretty amazing. I have saved and compiled over 100k photos of our life until now, our vacations and birthdays and holidays and dinners and there is so much history there. I love some of her family and she mine. We have a baby together. And the biggest thing is this: TODAY's atmosphere is not like what it was before our marriage counseling. Back then, if I had known what I know now, I would have walked out the f-kin door. But she has definitely made some improvement, and working on her temper and anger and bossiness and rudeness. And I am working on my sensitivity and codependency. So everyday is not miserable anymore. We have beautiful moments, mostly with the baby, in the morning, in the evening, and playing with our daughter. I wish we still had some great moments with just the two of us, but my wife doesnt seem connected to me anymore. Literally she will not touch me for days at a time. It's hard for me, being an affectionate person. It's strange though because with our baby she is SUPER affectionate.
> 
> So what is there to lose? A lot. Like I said...I still love her so much and feel bad for her. She isn't always known for making the best decisions in life, often choosing to "learn the hard way". It's tough to see someone you love do this. And I don't think she even knows how much it actually WOULD change her world if I wasn't around. I'm taken for granted. All I do for her and this family, when sh-t goes down I step up and handle it....she doesnt realize that would be gone. She wouldn't be able to handle it in tough times is my guess and I don't think she gets that. Me? I'm so used to being on my own for 7 years that I could certainly handle it, but being away from my baby...that's a whole nother thing. I dont think I could handle that well. I'm very involved and adore her, making her custom toys and baby furniture and artwork all the time. Also, I dont want to look back and think "the last 15 years were a waste" if I leave. So that's the dillemma...because I need love. I want love. I want to be liked and adored and make a woman excited to be with me. It's funny....I have a lot of friends, all of whom like me and consider me the hilarious one in the group. All of the wives of my friends all say how wonderful of a person I am and a great father and think I'm fun to hang out with. And of course my baby thinks I'm hilarious. It's like they all appreciate me for me and my wife is the only one who doesn't care, not ever laughing at my jokes and often not even answering me when i'm talking to her. It's strange.
> 
> Sorry for the long post, just wanted to be detailed. Feel like im at a crossroads, but you tell me?


JLD means well. And she has done a good deal of reading. And she has several theories about how marriages *will* work. Not how they _should_ work, but how they *will* work.

I think she becomes nonplussed when she is faced with a marriage that does not comply with her pre-set paradigm for marriage.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Why is it you believe that his wife isn't more powerful than C?
> 
> Let's break it down:
> The mechanics of life are a mix of factors. First and foremost is money. She's the main breadwinner.
> 
> Emotionally - she doesn't appear to need C.
> 
> What is the source of his power in the marriage?
> 
> And just to be clear - even though there IS a clear power imbalance:
> 1. C is fully capable of supporting himself.
> And
> 2. C knows that if he leaves, their child will continue to be well cared for
> 
> That means C is free to leave at any time. As he was free to leave before they started trying to have a baby.
> 
> It is - very sad - when someone says: I've been abused for many years. And 5 (or so) years into being abused I chose to have a child with my abuser.
> 
> When C is able to own his contribution to the marriage - he might be able to improve it. Until that happens - it's hard to see how he can improve it.
> 
> This marriage is an excellent example of what happens when you have love without compatibility.


When he is able to own his power to turn it around, it will get better. And Gottman's advice could help him.

She is not the leader in the relationship, MEM. Look at what he has said--she never initiates sex, needs his approval, is fully emotive with him. She looks to him to guide the relationship. 

Do you ever see her calming him, first reaching out to soothe and comfort him? Is there any indication she is willing or even able to take that kind of responsibility in the relationship?

He is the more emotionally stable partner here. And I realize how crazy that may sound, considering how volatile his posts can read. But he is the best shot they have at leadership in the relationship.

But do you remember, a few months ago, when, during a tense time, he put his arm around her, put in a movie they both liked, and just lay close to her on the bed? She relaxed, and they had a good evening. He needs to show that kind of leadership, that kind of confidence, more often. That will rekindle their emotional connection.

Money does not mean anything to someone who can live happily on little of it. And that describes cinna. So his wife has no power over him that way.

Where she does have power is in his love for her, and his desire to be with their baby every day. 

I think she loves him, too, and definitely wants to be with her baby everyday. But she is not going to meet his needs first. She needs to have her trust earned--his meeting her needs first, not in the ways he thinks should meet them, but in the ways that actually do--before that is going to happen in any more than a "the counselor told me I have to do this" way. She acts through emotional responsive desire. 

She has gone through an incredibly difficult transition in her job, and he is still going on about how she is not meeting his needs. Her job, and then her baby, take up all her energy. 

He is going to have to adapt. Things are not going back to the way they were before. He needs to either forge a new, effective path, or give up on the relationship.

If he does not inspire her to meet his needs, through first meeting hers, they are not going to get met. And no amount of whining and crying and defensiveness and resentment on his part is going to change that.

But pulling himself together, getting stronger in himself, and following Gottman's advice (his latest book is quite good!) could.

Cinna, if you are reading this, Gottman says in the first chapter of _A Man's Guide to Women_ that women want trustworthiness in men. He says trust is built through emotional connection, and emotional connection is created through attunement. He says that emotional attunement equals trustworthiness. Those are almost direct quotes, btw.

You want her to attune to you, cinna. But Gottman says that is not how it works. You must first attune to *her*.

Here is a passage to reflect on:

_"If you are in a close relationship with a woman, you are going to get to see all of her emotions (and all of your own emotions) in their raw, ugly beauty. Don't let them scare you. Don't think you can give her logical reasons why they should not be present. Acceptance is the key. As you learn to accept her emotions, you may learn to accept your own."_


----------



## oneMOreguy

There is a good measure of truth in what jld is saying here. I just think that many are bothered by some of the phrases that she uses while providing her thoughts. But jld certainly has a good analytical mind, and for the right situations, her approach may very well work. OP......look for the truth in her comments that resonate with you as possibilities. Your wife certainly does not hate you. .....you have a better starting point than many here. 

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


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## turnera

You'd choose love over money. But you wife has chosen money over love. Now what?


----------



## sokillme

cinnabomb said:


> tron youre new to this thread so you probably havent read everything about me, but I could give a flying F-ck about money. Id choose love over money any day of the week


This is what everyone is trying to tell you, what you have right now is not love, it is an extreme form of codependency. I am not sure why you even trust her to stay with you.


----------



## sokillme

MattMatt said:


> JLD means well. And she has done a good deal of reading. And she has several theories about how marriages *will* work. Not how they _should_ work, but how they *will* work.
> 
> I think she becomes nonplussed when she is faced with a marriage that does not comply with her pre-set paradigm for marriage.


Nope she is really just a misandrist. May not even realize it but there are tones of prejudice people who don't think they are. 

Matt you really always like to believe the best in everyone. Hopeful is your default huh?


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## cinnabomb

JLD, you talk about meeting her needs? For 15 years I made every single day of my life about her. Every day of my life my thoughts were "how can I make her day better, her life easier, and make her smile?". Even after all this pain, I still do it, but not as much as not with attachment to outcome, as it causes resentment in me, I have learned. I dont think you have a clue about what kind of man I am, perhaps jaded by the men in your life. I can make a list of 20 things I do for her on a consistent basis that make her life better, easier, and happier. 

Know what she does for me? guess. Nothing. Not ONE single thing. Cook for me? nope. Take care of me when im sick. nope. care about my conversations? nope. any sort of fulfillment of affection, intimacy, or sex? nope. If I even ask her for a glass of water, I will get back a snippy "can you just get it yourself." You have no clue what my life is like. I am 100% on my own out here, totally self-sufficient. 

I go to grocery store 2x a week ad EVERY time text her and ask what she needs. I pick up things I think she will like. I cook good healthy meals for the family almost daily. I clean the home, fix everything, her car, her laptop, everything is taken care of. When she gets sick, the first sign I start giving her vitamins and I gladly make her soup and tea and take care of her and baby so she can rest. I deal with the tough things everytime. She doesnt like some food she ordered? I talk to the waiter and handle it. I save the money I handle finances and investment. I interview, hired, manage, and pay the 4 people that work for us. Which also means I go to the bank for cash every single week. I pay every bill and believe me we have a lot, between our finances and 4 properties. I initiated and planned every single vacation, social night, dinner, outings, or just hanging with friends for all these years. Ive rented houses so that my family and her family can all stay together for the holidays and Ive planned everything. When we have a party at our house, I handle all the food, all the ****tails, and I usually do all the dishes by myself. Im the one taking the photos at every event and uploading them online for everyone to see. When she has a bad day or needs to talk, I IMMEDIATELY pause whatever Im doing and listen and tell her it will be alright. I ask her how her day is, every day during the day. I tell her to have a nice day. And in her own words "you brought my family together." The list goes on and on and on. And I dont even get a glass of water. 

Tell me JLD, you're so wise....do you know of any man who does all this and more? Do you want the rest of the list? And I dont ***** and complain about her TO her. Thats why Im HERE obviously. I suck it up, obviously, and try to deal with it. Why do you think I would stay in an abusive relationship for 7 years. In fifteen years, even after all this pain, I have never flirted with another woman. Not once. I was raised with morals and ethics and so I sucked it up and trudged through...for her. So tell me....what exactly did you have in mind????


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## MattMatt

@cinnabomb What would she do if you went on a "love strike" and stopped doing anything for her and instead concentrated on baby and you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

You could start by learning how these four things can destroy a marriage:

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-the-antidotes/

Cinna, make no mistake: these elements are being communicated to your wife whether you realize it or not. Our attitudes spill over into our interactions with our spouse. She knows you disapprove of her diet, her job, her spending. She feels it in how many ways. That disapproval is not helping you two emotionally connect. Without that connection, sex will remain non-existent. (And if the disconnect goes on long enough, and she develops enough self-confidence, she may eventually leave you.)

Another thought: your love language is Acts of Service. It is how you give love, and how you want to receive it. But that is likely not your wife's love language. So you keep doing things that, in your language communicate love, but she may not be receiving them as love. 

Oh, I am sure she likes some of them, and would notice if they were gone. But they are not the things that really warm her heart and make her feel close to you. You need to find out what would make that big impact on your wife. It sounds like Words of Affirmation or Physical Touch (she likes your hugs and kisses, right?) might be it.

But watch out with physical touch. You have to make it about her, not you. Iow, trying to get sex out of her is not what I am encouraging here. Just non-physical affection that is truly nurturing to her seems to be the order of the day.

Also, if you truly think she is abusive, why do you stay? If you truly feel threatened, because you feel her power is greater than yours and she misuses that power to hurt you (my understanding of abuse), why do you say you love her and do not want to leave her? 

Surely you see the incongruity between what you claim and what is real, cinna. You are not being threatened by her. You are just hurt/fearful that she is not doing exactly what you want, exactly the way you want it. Control issues.

You could leave at any time. You are choosing to stay. By changing your attitude, you could turn this marriage around. Own it, or leave it. 

But do yourself a favor and stop blaming her, and expecting her to make it all better for you. It is not going to happen. If this marriage is going to get better, it is you that will make it happen. And Gottman's advice, found in his many books, could go a long way towards helping you do it.


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## MattMatt

The song of marriage, if it is to be a sweet, harmonious melody, must be a duet.

But it must be damnably hard to sing a duet if the only thing your partner can sing is Mi! Mi! Mi" 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV4vHpqrj6E


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> @cinnabomb What would she do if you went on a "love strike" and stopped doing anything for her and instead concentrated on baby and you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she has enough self-confidence, I think his doing that would just end the marriage faster. Didn't he say she is ultimately okay if he leaves?

She does not need his "services," Matt. She would quickly realize she can pay for all of that.

What she needs is for him to attune to her, to connect emotionally with her. That is what will make her feel close to him. That is what is not easily replaced. That is what could heal their marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

C,

This post - is a huge step back for you.




cinnabomb said:


> JLD, you talk about meeting her needs? For 15 years I made every single day of my life about her. Every day of my life my thoughts were "how can I make her day better, her life easier, and make her smile?". Even after all this pain, I still do it, but not as much as not with attachment to outcome, as it causes resentment in me, I have learned. I dont think you have a clue about what kind of man I am, perhaps jaded by the men in your life. I can make a list of 20 things I do for her on a consistent basis that make her life better, easier, and happier.
> 
> Know what she does for me? guess. Nothing. Not ONE single thing. Cook for me? nope. Take care of me when im sick. nope. care about my conversations? nope. any sort of fulfillment of affection, intimacy, or sex? nope. If I even ask her for a glass of water, I will get back a snippy "can you just get it yourself." You have no clue what my life is like. I am 100% on my own out here, totally self-sufficient.
> 
> I go to grocery store 2x a week ad EVERY time text her and ask what she needs. I pick up things I think she will like. I cook good healthy meals for the family almost daily. I clean the home, fix everything, her car, her laptop, everything is taken care of. When she gets sick, the first sign I start giving her vitamins and I gladly make her soup and tea and take care of her and baby so she can rest. I deal with the tough things everytime. She doesnt like some food she ordered? I talk to the waiter and handle it. I save the money I handle finances and investment. I interview, hired, manage, and pay the 4 people that work for us. Which also means I go to the bank for cash every single week. I pay every bill and believe me we have a lot, between our finances and 4 properties. I initiated and planned every single vacation, social night, dinner, outings, or just hanging with friends for all these years. Ive rented houses so that my family and her family can all stay together for the holidays and Ive planned everything. When we have a party at our house, I handle all the food, all the ****tails, and I usually do all the dishes by myself. Im the one taking the photos at every event and uploading them online for everyone to see. When she has a bad day or needs to talk, I IMMEDIATELY pause whatever Im doing and listen and tell her it will be alright. I ask her how her day is, every day during the day. I tell her to have a nice day. And in her own words "you brought my family together." The list goes on and on and on. And I dont even get a glass of water.
> 
> Tell me JLD, you're so wise....do you know of any man who does all this and more? Do you want the rest of the list? And I dont ***** and complain about her TO her. Thats why Im HERE obviously. I suck it up, obviously, and try to deal with it. Why do you think I would stay in an abusive relationship for 7 years. In fifteen years, even after all this pain, I have never flirted with another woman. Not once. I was raised with morals and ethics and so I sucked it up and trudged through...for her. So tell me....what exactly did you have in mind????


----------



## Tron

Just cause I didn't post on it, doesn't mean I haven't been following your thread. I think its been close to 6 months now. 

Sadly your last vent just screams out that you are her little b!tch. No more, no less. And the more you do for her without reciprocation the more resentful you get. This is simple "Nice Guy" covert contract stuff. Sorry, but you aren't doing yourself any favors here.

And on the flip side of it, the more you suck it up and do these things for her where she thanks you by treating you like dirt, the less respect she has for you. It is subliminal.

A step back indeed.


----------



## Begin again

I'm sorry to read this, especially since she used to be such a different person who you loved very much. Deep down she knows she's doing wrong, but it seems like she can't admit it to herself let alone you. She's going to wake up one day and hate herself for how she's behaving. The thing is, you can't wake her up and you can't know when she will... It could be on her death bed.

The only thing that may rattle her is if something devastating happens so that she's forced to stop focusing on her career and look at her life. Divorce may do that, but don't count on it and don't do anything to get her to see the error of her ways... Only she can see that. Maybe someone without a vested interest could get though, but obviously that rules you out.

Do what your gut and experience tell you... That's my only real advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cinnabomb

Let me clarify something. I clearly got defensive when called out by JLD when she implied I wasnt "taking care of" my wife. So I put a list of the type of things I have done for the majority of our relationship. JLD I think you are projecting your own experiences on me. Im not your ex or whoever hurt you. And not only did I do a lot of "acts of service", I also provided a shoulder for her to cry on, listening when she talk, gave her encouragement when she wanted to go back to school or start a company, telling her "chase your dreams I can handle making the money for us for a few years". You have no idea what I did and how hard I tried and at some point you need to ask yourself if that other person simply isnt capable of the kind of reciprocal relationship that I want. 

Trust me, anything you can think of, I have tried, to little or no avail. Not just service....REAL meaningful support, love, acknowledgment, and encouragement. You have no idea. 

To the rest of you I want to say that the big list of things I was doing has been cut down a lot since we started both MC and IC, about a year ago. MATT I wouldnt call it a love strike, but at first I cut a LOT of it out. I have learned how detrimental it can be to ME to do so much for people and not take care of myself. So now when I am thinking about doing something from that list, I ask myself if I'm doing it because I just want to (with no expectation of some gratitude), or if I'm trying to get something back. It's a tough habit to break but I am definitely not in the same place as I was a year ago. However, cutting a lot of those down or out hasnt had any real significant change in us, but for her, she has learned to do some things for herself, which is a plus for me. 

Also, I would say she "treats me like dirt" anymore. Now it's just sort of ambivalence which is more confusing. She talks in a fairly normal way for the most part, not snapping as much or losing her temper as much (maybe once a week), and it's nothing compared to what it was with the yelling and door slamming. Also, I now know when she gets triggered, not to even engage, just walk away. I used to try and talk it out and she couldnt control herself. But the days are fairly regular, it's just that she has become like a robot. She rarely ever talks to me if it's not about baby. She touches me almost exactly 3x a day. Once in the morning when saying goodbye, once when she gets home, and once before bed. And many times its only 1 or 2 of those instances, but rarely deviates from the "program". Its awkward. She is on her laptop from the second she gets home until bed time. I cant remember the last time she sat down with no phone or laptop next to me and said "whats up". And yes JLD I have tried doing all of those myself many times. 

So sometimes I will just initiate and say "hey want to sit down and watch a show and cuddle" or whatever. Usually she will comply, but it feels forced and awkward, and she almost never "gives". Meaning, she isnt cuddling or hugging or caressing. She will come and lay down on me. I dont mind this, but sometimes it would be nice to be on the receiving end of SOMETHING. Overall it just feels like shes going through the motions, but doesnt truly love me. I'm trying because I'm telling myself, "well, MC has helped her a lot at least in terms of her anger and constant aggression, maybe this is just the next step and there is something better coming". That's why I'm still working at it.


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## turnera

Never tell a woman you want to cuddle. Absolutely never ASK a woman to cuddle. JUST DO IT!


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## MattMatt

turnera said:


> Never tell a woman you want to cuddle. Absolutely never ASK a woman to cuddle. JUST DO IT!


But careful if you -male or female- are married to someone who has Asperger's Syndrome and who has a propensity to jump off the ground when unexpectedly grabbed. (I speak from personal experience...)


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## Marc878

MattMatt said:


> But careful if you -male or female- are married to someone who has Asperger's Syndrome and who has a propensity to jump off the ground when unexpectedly grabbed. (I speak from personal experience...)



Matt you should goose her in the shower >


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## MattMatt

Marc878 said:


> Matt you should goose her in the shower >


I'll just amplify my original remark by saying "Never goose your wife in the shower if she was trained in unarmed combat by her father who was a Royal Marine SBS unarmed combat instructor!" 

Ouch for real...


----------



## alte Dame

It sounds to me like she feels contempt for you and spends a lot of time trying to mask it. She barely succeeds much of the time.

Marriage experts say that contempt is a death knell for a relationship.

I don't think I would want to continue to live intimately with a spouse like your W. The power dynamic between you means that you spend all your time agonizing over your marriage & she just tolerates it.


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## cinnabomb

Begin again said:


> I'm sorry to read this, especially since she used to be such a different person who you loved very much. Deep down she knows she's doing wrong, but it seems like she can't admit it to herself let alone you. She's going to wake up one day and hate herself for how she's behaving. The thing is, you can't wake her up and you can't know when she will... It could be on her death bed.
> 
> The only thing that may rattle her is if something devastating happens so that she's forced to stop focusing on her career and look at her life. Divorce may do that, but don't count on it and don't do anything to get her to see the error of her ways... Only she can see that. Maybe someone without a vested interest could get though, but obviously that rules you out.
> 
> Do what your gut and experience tell you... That's my only real advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks I dont think Ive ever seen you post here but I actually really appreciate the way you phrased that. And it helps more than you know. How you say to dont count on it....thats a big downfall of mine. I always am hoping so hard that something I do will fix all this. Its hard to live like that.


----------



## Mr The Other

cinnabomb said:


> thanks I dont think Ive ever seen you post here but I actually really appreciate the way you phrased that. And it helps more than you know. How you say to dont count on it....thats a big downfall of mine. I always am hoping so hard that something I do will fix all this. Its hard to live like that.


There was a time when the only way to stay with your wife was to bend off backwards for her. Had you put your foot down, she was as off the scale that it would have killed the marriage. Now, she has changed and is no longer off the scale. The problem is that as you capitulated, it is hard for her deep down to give you respect, even though logically she thinks she should. From your part, you have had so much stuff thrown at you that you struggle to be the normal, strong, confident guy you were. 

One thing that keeps this dynamic the way it is is your determination to make the marriage work. You are taking the responsibility. The truth is, if you were willing to let the marriage fail, first you would relax and second of all she would see a different side to you. 

You hoping hard is like trying to protect a butterfly by holding it tight in your fist. You have to be willing to let the marriage die in order for it to live.

I am just repeating something similar to many others. Excuse me if it does not add much.

PS: I also reacted negatively to Jld. You are right that all she does is project her own previous experience onto every poster. However, it is also true that the men who react most defensively are the ones who deep down feel that all the responsibility for the marriage is theirs. It is not.


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## GuyInColorado

Ask yourself... Is the fcking you're getting worth the fcking you're taking?

We all know the answer is no. Hell, the only fcking you're getting is with Ms. Righty. Jeezus, just leave and find someone that actually desires you. We only get one life, don't live it with regrets. 

I've been out of my miserable marriage for 7 months now and I feel so sorry for people who don't have the courage to leave. I can't get over how happy I am and the awesome sex that I have on a daily basis. I was in a 100% sexless marriage for the last 5 years of my 8 year marriage, so I know first hand how a crappy relationship affects a person.


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## Duguesclin

Cinna, what does your wife like to talk about? What is her interest?

If it is only work, can you engage her in talking about what she does? Can you ask her what frustrates her at work or what she likes there?

It may not be what interests you, but it can go a long way to get her closer to you.


----------



## Chaparral

Tron said:


> Just cause I didn't post on it, doesn't mean I haven't been following your thread. I think its been close to 6 months now.
> 
> Sadly your last vent just screams out that you are her little b!tch. No more, no less. And the more you do for her without reciprocation the more resentful you get. This is simple "Nice Guy" covert contract stuff. Sorry, but you aren't doing yourself any favors here.
> 
> And on the flip side of it, the more you suck it up and do these things for her where she thanks you by treating you like dirt, the less respect she has for you. It is subliminal.
> 
> A step back indeed.


This has often been pointed out to him. Unfortunately, he's so smart he doesn't see the obvious. He disgusts her. No woman wants to bang the butler, maid, bookkeeper,doormat etc. She got a real man to look up to, her partner.


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## cinnabomb

Mr The Other said:


> There was a time when the only way to stay with your wife was to bend off backwards for her. Had you put your foot down, she was as off the scale that it would have killed the marriage. Now, she has changed and is no longer off the scale. The problem is that as you capitulated, it is hard for her deep down to give you respect, even though logically she thinks she should. From your part, you have had so much stuff thrown at you that you struggle to be the normal, strong, confident guy you were.
> 
> One thing that keeps this dynamic the way it is is your determination to make the marriage work. You are taking the responsibility. The truth is, if you were willing to let the marriage fail, first you would relax and second of all she would see a different side to you.
> 
> You hoping hard is like trying to protect a butterfly by holding it tight in your fist. You have to be willing to let the marriage die in order for it to live.
> 
> I am just repeating something similar to many others. Excuse me if it does not add much.
> 
> PS: I also reacted negatively to Jld. You are right that all she does is project her own previous experience onto every poster. However, it is also true that the men who react most defensively are the ones who deep down feel that all the responsibility for the marriage is theirs. It is not.


This is pretty spot on, and you're right...I didnt think about it, but I AM the one doing the heavy lifting here, trying to keep us alive. I think deep down she just doesn't see herself as the bigger problem, or even HALF the problem, and doesnt truly want to change for anyone. The more I think about it, the angrier I get. I definitely have relaxed in the relationship a lot, but it doesnt change the fact that my needs arent being met. This is a sexless marriage and although I'm being patient NOW, if that doessnt change then it's going to be over. I'm giving this therapy process a chance for now. 

@Dug, yes she mostly only talks about two things. Our baby and work. There is very little else to her life. And when I do ask her about work (something I didnt do for years after all the hurt), she does get excited to share about it and I can sense she feels good talking to me about it. I'm trying. It's hard sometimes because I mentally relate her work as a big part of our downfall. But I'm trying.


----------



## turnera

cinnabomb said:


> I AM the one doing the heavy lifting here, trying to keep us alive. I think deep down she just doesn't see herself as the bigger problem, or even HALF the problem, and doesnt truly want to change for anyone.


Why should she? You're her butler, nanny, housekeeper, beard, and whipping boy. And she doesn't even have to give you sex.


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## Mr The Other

cinnabomb said:


> This is pretty spot on, and you're right...I didnt think about it, but I AM the one doing the heavy lifting here, trying to keep us alive. I think deep down she just doesn't see herself as the bigger problem, or even HALF the problem, and doesnt truly want to change for anyone. The more I think about it, the angrier I get. I definitely have relaxed in the relationship a lot, but it doesnt change the fact that my needs arent being met. This is a sexless marriage and although I'm being patient NOW, if that doessnt change then it's going to be over. I'm giving this therapy process a chance for now.
> 
> @Dug, yes she mostly only talks about two things. Our baby and work. There is very little else to her life. And when I do ask her about work (something I didnt do for years after all the hurt), she does get excited to share about it and I can sense she feels good talking to me about it. I'm trying. It's hard sometimes because I mentally relate her work as a big part of our downfall. But I'm trying.


You are not being patient, you are forbearing. Enduring suffering is forbearing, growing resentful while enduring is forbearing. Patience would either not mind or happily leave, so there would be no room for anger.

So, what makes you forbear? The answer is that you cannot stand the alternative, which is giving up, accepting it probably will never work and realizing everything you had worked so hard for will be for nothing. Most partners would struggle with that and not be able to cope, to accept it is probably for nothing and shrug is very difficult. This puts you in the position of having emotional weakness exposed - not being snooty, I have been there.


----------



## MattMatt

alte Dame said:


> It sounds to me like she feels contempt for you and spends a lot of time trying to mask it. She barely succeeds much of the time.
> 
> Marriage experts say that contempt is a death knell for a relationship.
> 
> I don't think I would want to continue to live intimately with a spouse like your W. The power dynamic between you means that you spend all your time agonizing over your marriage & she just tolerates it.


Contempt? It's possibly not even that.

She somehow doesn't seem to see him. Like that weird condition people get when they can no longer see a part of their own body that is, in reality, still there.

Is it possible she is as mad as a box of frogs?


----------



## Duguesclin

cinnabomb said:


> @Dug, yes she mostly only talks about two things. Our baby and work. There is very little else to her life. And when I do ask her about work (something I didnt do for years after all the hurt), she does get excited to share about it and I can sense she feels good talking to me about it. I'm trying. It's hard sometimes because I mentally relate her work as a big part of our downfall. But I'm trying.


Why don't you ask about her work? 

Talking with her about her work does not have to be boring. You can find some genuine common interests:

Ask her what stresses her out. Offer ideas on how to deal with it. 

Ask her about her successes. How does she feel when she is successful?

You can always steer the conversation towards something that does interest you.

When your daughter will be a teenager, how do you plan to interact with her? 

I doubt she will have your interests top in her mind or care about what you think. Learning how to engage in conversations that are meaningful to your wife now will be good training for talking to your daughter later. Do not think your daughter will be any different than your wife.

It's only your parents and your employees that are really interested in what you are saying. Everyone else wants to talk about their interests.


----------



## Mr The Other

Duguesclin said:


> Why don't you ask about her work?
> 
> Talking with her about her work does not have to be boring. You can find some genuine common interests:
> 
> Ask her what stresses her out. Offer ideas on how to deal with it.
> 
> Ask her about her successes. How does she feel when she is successful?
> 
> You can always steer the conversation towards something that does interest you.
> 
> When your daughter will be a teenager, how do you plan to interact with her?
> 
> I doubt she will have your interests top in her mind or care about what you think. Learning how to engage in conversations that are meaningful to your wife now will be good training for talking to your daughter later. Do not think your daughter will be any different than your wife.
> 
> It's only your parents and your employees that are really interested in what you are saying. Everyone else wants to talk about their interests.


I agree that the very obvious things should be tried first. The assumption is that this is obvious to normal people, but worth confirming.


----------



## MEM2020

Dug,

Notice how C2 prefers to interact with C via text. I'm pretty sure that's because - their emotional interaction 'in person' isn't so good. 

I'll put this differently. I don't think their issue is what they talk about. It's more that - when she's anxious - C isn't effective at soothing her. 

She gets hm anxious - instead of him making her calm.




Duguesclin said:


> Why don't you ask about her work?
> 
> Talking with her about her work does not have to be boring. You can find some genuine common interests:
> 
> Ask her what stresses her out. Offer ideas on how to deal with it.
> 
> Ask her about her successes. How does she feel when she is successful?
> 
> You can always steer the conversation towards something that does interest you.
> 
> When your daughter will be a teenager, how do you plan to interact with her?
> 
> I doubt she will have your interests top in her mind or care about what you think. Learning how to engage in conversations that are meaningful to your wife now will be good training for talking to your daughter later. Do not think your daughter will be any different than your wife.
> 
> It's only your parents and your employees that are really interested in what you are saying. Everyone else wants to talk about their interests.


----------



## bandit.45

He just doesn't want to do the hard work of becoming his own emotionally independent man. If he were to disengage form her, go back to work, keep all the money he makes and only pay for his keep, starts pursuing his own interests outside the marriage, learns to tell her to shove it up her ass whenever she berates him, gets in primo shape, and starts getting other women to notice him, (i.e. upping his sex rank), then things may start to really change for him fundementally. 

But he's smarter than the rest of us. He's going to keep doing it his way...

...his way...(skip)

...his way...(skip)

...his way...(skip)

...his way...(skip)


----------



## MEM2020

Bandit,
Mostly - when I see folks behaving badly - it's because they feel bad. And they are trying to feel less bad - perhaps in a low functioning manner. 

An emotionally independent man - doesn't get agitated/angry when faced with a distressed partner. Instead - they help them. 

Telling a distressed partner to shove it - simply means they are powerful enough to synchronize you to their emotional state. 

Whole different deal when instead you are powerful enough to synchronize them to YOUR emotional state. 






Banned-It.45 said:


> He just doesn't want to do the hard work of becoming his own emotionally independent man. If he were to disengage form her, go back to work, keep all the money he makes and only pay for his keep, starts pursuing his own interests outside the marriage, learns to tell her to shove it up her ass whenever she berates him, gets in primo shape, and starts getting other women to notice him, (i.e. upping his sex rank), then things may start to really change for him fundementally.
> 
> But he's smarter than the rest of us. He's going to keep doing it his way...
> 
> ...his way...(skip)
> 
> ...his way...(skip)
> 
> ...his way...(skip)
> 
> ...his way...(skip)


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> Bandit,
> Mostly - when I see folks behaving badly - it's because they feel bad. And they are trying to feel less bad - perhaps in a low functioning manner.
> 
> An emotionally independent man - doesn't get agitated/angry when faced with a distressed partner. Instead - they help them.
> 
> Telling a distressed partner to shove it - simply means they are powerful enough to synchronize you to their emotional state.
> 
> Whole different deal when instead you are powerful enough to synchronize them to YOUR emotional state.


I agree with this whole heartedly...until my crap meter gets pegged. Selfishness will do that to me faster than nearly anything else.

At that point, synchronization doesn't matter anymore, and it is time to calmly tell her there are other people in the family besides her.

There is a fine line between support and enabling.

My wife and I dealt with this for 48 hours prior to going to Gatlinburg last weekend. 48 hours out...$hit testing and general rudeness over little things...starting fights. 24 hours out, the same. The day of the trip we were delayed 4 hours due to her not being able to say no to her father or the business. Then she proceeded to complain nearly the entire 5.5 hour trip, to include complaints about how late we were arriving. On Saturday, she was sweet to everyone but me. Sunday, she had a blast. We returned late Sunday night to her being cranky and nasty with me again. 

At that point, I told her that whatever was bothering her (which was being overwhelmed due to leaving her business behind for 48 hours) was not my fault, and if the best she could do was to be so retchid, ungrateful, and self centered that our son even commented that she made the trip worse, then it would be the last weekend trip that we would take her on, and that he and I would go have fun without her.

There always must be a line, and it must be clearly communicated when crossed.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I agree with this whole heartedly...until my crap meter gets pegged. Selfishness will do that to me faster than nearly anything else.
> 
> At that point, synchronization doesn't matter anymore, and it is time to calmly tell her there are other people in the family besides her.
> 
> There is a fine line between support and enabling.
> 
> My wife and I dealt with this for 48 hours prior to going to Gatlinburg last weekend. 48 hours out...$hit testing and general rudeness over little things...starting fights. 24 hours out, the same. The day of the trip we were delayed 4 hours due to her not being able to say no to her father or the business. Then she proceeded to complain nearly the entire 5.5 hour trip, to include complaints about how late we were arriving. On Saturday, she was sweet to everyone but me. Sunday, she had a blast. We returned late Sunday night to her being cranky and nasty with me again.
> 
> At that point, I told her that whatever was bothering her (which was being overwhelmed due to leaving her business behind for 48 hours) was not my fault, and if the best she could do was to be so retchid, ungrateful, and self centered that our son even commented that she made the trip worse, then it would be the last weekend trip that we would take her on, and that he and I would go have fun without her.
> 
> There always must be a line, and it must be clearly communicated when crossed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I do not think you handled this well, far. I am disappointed.


----------



## bandit.45

MEM11363 said:


> Bandit,
> Mostly - when I see folks behaving badly - it's because they feel bad. And they are trying to feel less bad - perhaps in a low functioning manner.
> 
> An emotionally independent man - doesn't get agitated/angry when faced with a *distressed partner*. Instead - they help them.
> 
> Telling a distressed partner to shove it - simply means they are powerful enough to synchronize you to their emotional state.
> 
> Whole different deal when instead you are powerful enough to synchronize them to YOUR emotional state.


I'm talking about an abusive partner...which she is.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I do not think you handled this well, far. I am disappointed.


After four days of support, listening to her concerns, and reassuring her, I reached my limit.

It was not okay.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> After four days of support, listening to her concerns, and reassuring her, I reached my limit.
> 
> It was not okay.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Honest question, far: Are you in over your head with her?


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## MEM2020

Far,
The 4 days prior to M2's sisters weekend - were a bit like that. 

Sometimes a very concise question is helpful. 

Are you upset with me or just generally anxious? 

I've mentioned this before - but M2 has a strong near obsessive desire to be synchronized. Both in the mechanics and emotions of life. 

So if she is feeling bad - she - goes into Pokemon mode. Poke poke poke. 

Thing is - I don't just know (in my head) it's not about me - I believe (in my heart it's not about me). 

That said - the universal skeleton key - is gentle humor + empathy.

Far: Are you going to be banging on me the whole car ride or can we maybe budget it to the first 50 miles? 

Followed by: I know you're worried about work - if there's anything I can do to help you when we return, I will. I'm sorry your feeling bad/anxious about work.










farsidejunky said:


> I agree with this whole heartedly...until my crap meter gets pegged. Selfishness will do that to me faster than nearly anything else.
> 
> At that point, synchronization doesn't matter anymore, and it is time to calmly tell her there are other people in the family besides her.
> 
> There is a fine line between support and enabling.
> 
> My wife and I dealt with this for 48 hours prior to going to Gatlinburg last weekend. 48 hours out...$hit testing and general rudeness over little things...starting fights. 24 hours out, the same. The day of the trip we were delayed 4 hours due to her not being able to say no to her father or the business. Then she proceeded to complain nearly the entire 5.5 hour trip, to include complaints about how late we were arriving. On Saturday, she was sweet to everyone but me. Sunday, she had a blast. We returned late Sunday night to her being cranky and nasty with me again.
> 
> At that point, I told her that whatever was bothering her (which was being overwhelmed due to leaving her business behind for 48 hours) was not my fault, and if the best she could do was to be so retchid and self centered that our son even commented that she made the trip worse, then it would be the last weekend trip that we would take her on, and that he and I would go have fun without her.
> 
> There always must be a line, and it must be clearly communicated when crossed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

Is FAR's comment about telling F2 that this type behavior may result in future vacations without her - triggering your abandonment - reflex?

Because - it seems to me - FAR is in the 90-95 percent positive with F2. 





jld said:


> Honest question, far: Are you in over your head with her?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Is FAR's comment about telling F2 that this type behavior may result in future vacations without her - triggering your abandonment - reflex?
> 
> Because - it seems to me - FAR is in the 90-95 percent positive with F2.


No, MEM. It is a question. To far. Are you being triggered in some way?


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Honest question, far: Are you in over your head with her?


Maybe. Emotionally she is a handful. 

I have my weak moments too. 

However, I disagree with the premise of your question that what I said to her was particularly wrong.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> No, MEM. It is a question. To far. Are you being triggered in some way?


Are you asking me if I am triggering, or Mem?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Maybe. Emotionally she is a handful.
> 
> I have my weak moments too.
> 
> However, I disagree with the premise of your question that what I said to her was particularly wrong.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I am not saying it was "wrong." But I do not think you handled it well. And I think you are capable of handling it better.

I know my questions are sometimes hard. It shows maturity and courage on your part that you reflect on your answers.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Are you asking me if I am triggering, or Mem?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


MEM.


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## MEM2020

Bandit,
Looks to me like the following: 

C has spent almost a decade trying to get C2 to do what he wants. Her pushback, while harsh and low functioning, is sincere. 

His behavior strikes me as obsessive and controlling. 

These comments he makes - for example: being at a cross road - are simply not sincere. 

Why do you think she avoids eating with him? 




Banned-It.45 said:


> I'm talking about an abusive partner...which she is.


----------



## bandit.45

MEM11363 said:


> Bandit,
> Looks to me like the following:
> 
> C has spent almost a decade trying to get C2 to do what he wants. Her pushback, while harsh and low functioning, is sincere.
> 
> His behavior strikes me as obsessive and controlling.
> 
> These comments he makes - for example: being at a cross road - are simply not sincere.
> 
> Why do you think she avoids eating with him?


Oh I have no doubt he's annoying...

I get annoyed just reading his posts. That doesn't excuse her returning the favor by being a b!tch. She needs to divorce him if she can no longer stand him. 

I have no sympathy for either of them.


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## MEM2020

JLD,
My pulse is slow and steady - at 60 bpm.

I only asked because this has historically been your trigger. Abandonment. 

What Far said to F2 is the type thing that tends to rile you up. 

When riled - you tend to black and white thinking. 

I'll splash some gray on you by way of example. 

Far,
How often do you reach a breaking point with F2? How does it play out with F2 when that happens? Is there a trend line?





jld said:


> No, MEM. It is a question. To far. Are you being triggered in some way?


----------



## MEM2020

He's the one claiming abuse AND neglect. 

I'd have to say that puts the responsibility for action in his court. Not hers. 





Banned-It.45 said:


> Oh I have no doubt he's annoying...
> 
> I get annoyed just reading his posts. That doesn't excuse her returning the favor by being a b!tch. She needs to divorce him if she can no longer stand him.
> 
> I have no sympathy for either of them.


----------



## farsidejunky

A few times per year, maybe.

She used to respond with anger. The last couple of times she has shown remorse quickly.

I don't think frequency is trending either way, but response is trending more positive.

In fairness, my b.s. tolerance is lower when things are tense for me, which they have been of late. As alluded to in the dominance thread, this aggravates things for her as well.

Sorry for the t/j, Cinna.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

What would she have done if you had given her the option of staying home and working?





farsidejunky said:


> A few times per year, maybe.
> 
> She used to respond with anger. The last couple of times she has shown remorse quickly.
> 
> I don't think frequency is trending either way, but response is trending more positive.
> 
> In fairness, my b.s. tolerance is lower when things are tense for me, which they have been of late. As alluded to in the dominance thread, this aggravates things for her as well.
> 
> Sorry for the t/j, Cinna.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

MEM11363 said:


> He's the one claiming abuse AND neglect.
> 
> I'd have to say that puts the responsibility for action in his court. Not hers.


Meh....after a time it doesn't matter, if both of them choose to stay in the same quagmire what does it matter who is responsible for what? It is about a shared dysfunction. 

There comes a point when I stop feeling sorry for such people.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> What would she have done if you had given her the option of staying home and working?


She initially was going to do that as we were struggling to find someone to take care of the farm until last minute.

I told her that I wanted her to go. That was part of her problem as well. However, after the trip, she was glad she went, and said she wanted to go.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

Far,

No easy answer on that. Sometimes couples fight.




farsidejunky said:


> She initially was going to do that as we were struggling to find someone to take care of the farm until last minute.
> 
> I told her that I wanted her to go. That was part of her problem as well. However, after the trip, she was glad she went, and said she wanted to go.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> My pulse is slow and steady - at 60 bpm.
> 
> I only asked because this has historically been your trigger. Abandonment.
> 
> What Far said to F2 is the type thing that tends to rile you up.
> 
> When riled - you tend to black and white thinking.
> 
> I'll splash some gray on you by way of example.
> 
> Far,
> How often do you reach a breaking point with F2? How does it play out with F2 when that happens? Is there a trend line?


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, MEM. I do feel you trigger with me, though. And I am not sure why.

No, I am not worried that far will abandon his wife. I do not think she will abandon him, either.

I am concerned that he may be in over his head with her, though. This is not the first time she has been upset and he has not been able to soothe her. 

I absolutely believe in Gottman's advice to men. And I believe him when he says that men make or break heterosexual relationships. 

But I do not want men to be in a position where they cannot succeed, either. Or where they have to make too many fundamental compromises just to stay married. That is not fair to them, and it is not fair to their wives. The more natural compatibility a couple has, the easier the whole relationship will be.

Far, looking back, what do you think you could have done differently, if anything? What could you do now?


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## MEM2020

JLD,
You aren't triggering me at all. To 'trigger' me you have to do two things:
1. Surprise me
2. Do something that causes me to seriously question my frame of reference

You are nothing if not highly patterned in your responses. And while our views overlap - they don't fully overlap. 

I do believe that you struggle with a profound paradox. You wish to have the latitude to say and do whatever you wish with Dug. And as you get older your desire for him to take you more seriously grows. 

Those two goals conflict. 


I think they are topped out at a good marriage. And yes - that's a compatibility issue. They are somewhat incompatible. 

I don't believe she would be happier with someone else. I do think he would be. She's lucky he is so committed. 






jld said:


> Thanks for sharing your thoughts, MEM. I do feel you trigger with me, though. And I am not sure why.
> 
> No, I am not worried that far will abandon his wife. I do not think she will abandon him, either.
> 
> I am concerned that he may be in over his head with her, though. This is not the first time she has been upset and he has not been able to soothe her.
> 
> I absolutely believe in Gottman's advice to men. And I believe him when he says that men make or break heterosexual relationships.
> 
> But I do not want men to be in a position where they cannot succeed, either. Or where they have to make too many fundamental compromises just to stay married. That is not fair to them, and it is not fair to their wives. The more natural compatibility a couple has, the easier the whole relationship will be.
> 
> Far, looking back, what do you think you could have done differently, if anything? What could you do now?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> You aren't triggering me at all. To 'trigger' me you have to do two things:
> 1. Surprise me
> 2. Do something that causes me to seriously question my frame of reference
> 
> You are nothing if not highly patterned in your responses. And while our views overlap - they don't fully overlap.


No, they definitely do not fully overlap. 

Sorry, I can't shake the feeling you do trigger with me. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not that is the case.



> I do believe that you struggle with a profound paradox. You wish to have the latitude to say and do whatever you wish with Dug. And as you get older your desire for him to take you more seriously grows.
> 
> Those two goals conflict.


Dug is okay with transparency from me. He does not need it any particular way.

The way to get a spouse's attention is to be willing to live without them. And while I would be sad to do that, if my fundamental principles were violated, that is exactly what I would be doing.




> I think they are topped out at a good marriage. And yes - that's a compatibility issue. They are somewhat incompatible.
> 
> I don't believe she would be happier with someone else. I do think he would be. She's lucky he is so committed.


I am sure she brings her own gifts to the relationship. And I think she has only been married once. If far were ever to divorce, that would make two for him.


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## MEM2020

I think you just called me a liar. 

Sort of confirms my initial premise. Your behavior takes a pronounced turn for the worse when anything related to abandonment / perceived mistreatment of a wife gets discussed.

It's ok - I can tell when I'm dealing with (adult) JLD, vs child JLD. I take the former seriously, the latter not so much.






jld said:


> No, they definitely do not fully overlap.
> 
> Sorry, I can't shake the feeling you do trigger with me. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not that is the case.
> 
> 
> 
> Dug is okay with transparency from me. He does not need it any particular way.
> 
> The way to get a spouse's attention is to be willing to live without them. And while I would be sad to do that, if my fundamental principles were violated, that is exactly what I would be doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure she brings her own gifts to the relationship. And I think she has only been married once. If far were ever to divorce, that would make two for him.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> I think you just called me a liar.
> 
> Sort of confirms my initial premise. Your behavior takes a pronounced turn for the worse when anything related to abandonment / perceived mistreatment of a wife gets discussed.
> 
> It's ok - I can tell when I'm dealing with (adult) JLD, vs child JLD. I take the former seriously, the latter not so much.


Where do you think I am calling you a liar?


----------



## bandit.45

Does anyone else know what these two are babbling on about?


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## jld

Banned-It.45 said:


> Does anyone else know what these two are babbling on about?


Yeah. Let's get back to Cinna.

MEM, feel free to pm me if you want to discuss further.


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## Duguesclin

MEM11363 said:


> Dug,
> 
> Notice how C2 prefers to interact with C via text. I'm pretty sure that's because - their emotional interaction 'in person' isn't so good.
> 
> I'll put this differently. I don't think their issue is what they talk about. It's more that - when she's anxious - C isn't effective at soothing her.
> 
> She gets hm anxious - instead of him making her calm.


I 100% agree with you MEM. Cinna should be soothing her. Instead he would like her to help him. 

She does not need him in the long run if he is unwilling to change. 

On the other hand, I think he needs her.


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## GTdad

Banned-It.45 said:


> Does anyone else know what these two are babbling on about?


JLD's picking fights again, but it's hard to tell over what.


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## Nucking Futs

Banned-It.45 said:


> Does anyone else know what these two are babbling on about?


It's a thread jack with a moderator participating rather than stopping it.


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## cinnabomb

lot of chatter since my last post!

@banned, thats harsh but youre opinion. honestly you dont have a clue what ive done for that women. I made EVERY minute of every day for 15 years about trying to make her smile. Im HERE to vent so obviously you are hearing the bad stuff. That's commonly understood for most people. Again, your opinion but I doubt you have ever done the type of things for a woman that I have, and it wasnt until the last few years when she started to come home angry every day when things really went haywire. I tried every thing I could to listen to her, help her, appease her, give guidance, be nicer, give more love, hire people to help her....ANYTHING, and nothing worked. I tried being more loving, and it didnt help. I tried giving her more space and it didnt work. Honestly I wouldnt wish this type of confusion and pain and abuse on anyone. Not even blaming her because I know it wasnt intentional...she was in over her head and probably confsed and treading water and I was the easy target to take it out on. 

The others who say I should be soothing her...not exactly sure what you mean, can you clarify? Because I have tried nearly everything. When she comes home I pause the tv or laptop or whatever Im doing and ask her about her day, and at times it DOES help her. But today's home life is vastly different than a year ago when the abuse was in its worst phase. I think a big part of that is the MC. C has really been wonderful in helping my wife see herself from a calm and outside perspective. Wife has even been able to admit to her shortcomings, anger issues, and isolation behavior. Things she was in total denial about for years. MC also said she is astounded at how far Ive come in terms of understanding that there are so many other factors at play, that often rear their heads many years later. For example, my wife had a childhood where her parents were not really present or loving to her, and it didnt even seem to be an issue until many years after we started dating. But suddenly, it seemed to be affecting her. I dont understand the psychology of this, but I guess it's common?


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## MEM2020

C,

After this post - I'm going to do something I have never done before on TAM. I'm going to block you. 

I have never seen anyone who has more tightly seat belted themselves into the victim chair. There are reasons - valid reasons - that your wife won't sleep with you. That she minimizes her emotional interaction with you. 

I'm blocking you because I simply can't read anymore sequenced posts following the pattern below:
1. I'm great
2. She's awful
3. I'm at a decision point 
4. I refuse to do anything substantive 
Go to (1)





cinnabomb said:


> lot of chatter since my last post!
> 
> @banned, thats harsh but youre opinion. honestly you dont have a clue what ive done for that women. I made EVERY minute of every day for 15 years about trying to make her smile. Im HERE to vent so obviously you are hearing the bad stuff. That's commonly understood for most people. Again, your opinion but I doubt you have ever done the type of things for a woman that I have, and it wasnt until the last few years when she started to come home angry every day when things really went haywire. I tried every thing I could to listen to her, help her, appease her, give guidance, be nicer, give more love, hire people to help her....ANYTHING, and nothing worked. I tried being more loving, and it didnt help. I tried giving her more space and it didnt work. Honestly I wouldnt wish this type of confusion and pain and abuse on anyone. Not even blaming her because I know it wasnt intentional...she was in over her head and probably confsed and treading water and I was the easy target to take it out on.
> 
> The others who say I should be soothing her...not exactly sure what you mean, can you clarify? Because I have tried nearly everything. When she comes home I pause the tv or laptop or whatever Im doing and ask her about her day, and at times it DOES help her. But today's home life is vastly different than a year ago when the abuse was in its worst phase. I think a big part of that is the MC. C has really been wonderful in helping my wife see herself from a calm and outside perspective. Wife has even been able to admit to her shortcomings, anger issues, and isolation behavior. Things she was in total denial about for years. MC also said she is astounded at how far Ive come in terms of understanding that there are so many other factors at play, that often rear their heads many years later. For example, my wife had a childhood where her parents were not really present or loving to her, and it didnt even seem to be an issue until many years after we started dating. But suddenly, it seemed to be affecting her. I dont understand the psychology of this, but I guess it's common?


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## ThreeStrikes

Yep Mem, this thread is nothing but one circle after another. Round and round we go.

I'll say what I said at the beginning. Maybe it will sink in this time.


Cinna. Your wife isn't into you anymore. Get it? Can you handle it?


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## sokillme

cinnabomb you are in a classic codependent relationship. You are exactly where you want to be, this thread is more about you getting some sort of emotional charge out of everyone telling you how sad they are for you then you really wanting to change anything. You want to be the helpless victim husband. It is how you see yourself, you feel all this sacrificial love makes you the ultimate romantic or whatever. 

There comes a point when the pain that someone suffers is there own responsibility. If someone hurts themselves by sticking their hand in the fire people should feel sorry for them, but if they continue to stick it in over and over, then no one should really care anymore. I would advice everyone here to stop wasting their time. This relationship is obviously exactly what you want, I for one am not going to give you the pity you are so desperately craving. 

Far well, enjoy your relationship.


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## cinnabomb

this thread was about me trying to gain some understanding and advice and help about a very confusing change to my relationship. and change that happened nearly overnight and with no change in me at the start of this process. and if you dont understand the definition of "abuse" then maybe you shouldnt be commenting here, because logging in with your own emotional baggage and screaming "divorce her or shut up!" is just plain ignorant. my situation is complex. its not black and white. 

mem, 3 strikes, banned, and anyone else that simply "cant handle" this thread, just leave. seriously. your words are nothing more than wasted breath. i'm here for advice from people who care. this is a "talk about marriage" forum, not a place for you guys to channel your own anger and frustrations. if my wife were coming home and hitting me everyday, or had cheated on me, I WOULD leave in a heartbeat. but thats not the case. its complicated. 

Starting a new thread this one is too long anyways.


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## MattMatt

@cinnabomb you are not getting the help you need, here.

You are not getting the wife you need.

Your daughter is not getting the parents that she needs.

Is your wife getting what she needs? She seems to be getting what she wants but that is not the same as what she needs.

I think the time is coming when you will need to take some firm action over your wife.

Seek legal advice on what you can do to prepare for this re financial arrangements custody of your daughter and the like.

Not sure if starting a new thread is a good idea. But this thread does need some tidying up as there are posts that are very unhelpful with people rambling off topic and the like.

Might be worth reaching out to a moderator for help in cutting out some of the more extreme examples.

@EleGirl or Dejo are two who spring to mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes

Probably the first thread in TAM history where the OP has told both JLD and Bandit to take a hike.


----------

