# I hate being a Housewife



## EnigmaGirl

Interesting article:

Stay-at-home mom: I hate being a housewife

I found this very true:



> What I found interesting were the countless responses from stay-at-home moms who claimed their employed partners didn’t care how hard they worked and how it’s the hardest job in the world (for the record, I don’t think it is).


I think there are some stay-at-home parents who have it difficult. For instance, you've got 5 small kids at home or disabled children. But I roll my eyes every time I hear some mom with a couple kids saying that staying home is harder than working everyday. Uhhh....no its not...not even close.

I think traditional women's roles are generally unappreciated...which is unfortunate because they're very valuable to family life but they aren't harder than working at a job everyday and having the entire financial burden with zero help from your spouse. I'm glad this article discussed working spouses standing up for themselves. The propaganda about staying home being the most difficult job in the world is total nonsense. Working women raise children, earn a living and take care of their homes too. They often do it all while not leaving their spouse with the entire financial responsibility. 

I stayed at home for a very brief period after my 1st child was born and it was a vacation compared to what I deal with at work. The hardest part was that it was repetitive and boring and when my husband would get home, I had nothing much to talk about and I found myself jealous of him being able to interact with the world. But it wasn't "hard"....there was no comparison with what I did early in my career to juggle working, home and kids. I, like most working women, had to do it all.

These days I'm grateful everyday for the path I took. With my 2nd child, I had worked hard enough at my career to earn the privilege of bringing my newborn to work with me and work a flex schedule. It was the best of both worlds...I earned a paycheck and nursed my newborn every feeding. 

The proudest moments of my life these days are watching my oldest daughter work hard at her new career and knowing that she learned her work ethic from me.


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## staarz21

I am a SAHM. *I don't think it's the hardest or even the most important job out there. *I actually took a long time to get to where I am about the way I do things around the house. My children are 10, 4, and almost 2. It's definitely easier now that it was a couple of years ago. I used to stress about how the house looked - like I had to clean everything all of the time. From the ceilings to the baseboards - it all had to be spotless. 

Living like that was hard for me. I did think it was difficult, because to ME...it was. I had a hard time keeping up with that level of cleaning and running errands for my H as well as taking time to teach my kids. There was no time to play with them. I never thought it was more important than what my H did. Even if he came home and said he was tired after telling me earlier in the day how many rounds of Call of Duty he played on the Xbox because they had nothing going on at work. 

I had to learn to let that stuff go though before I learned how easy and joyful it could be. I don't complain about my staying at home. I don't talk about how hard it is - because it's not hard anymore. To ME, it's not difficult anymore. 

But I am NOT going to sit there and dog some other woman who is clearly having a hard time with adjusting to staying at home with small children. Yes. Some women complain that it's hard. That it's difficult. To THEM, it is. 

You don't get to control other people's stress levels and what they can handle. Sometimes, it takes time to learn the job - just like if you got up and went to work everyday, you have to learn how to get your job done efficiently, completely, and do it with a smile on your face. You don't walk in the first day knowing everything (typically). It's stressful to start something new - whatever it may be.

I now hold a group for other stay at home moms in my community. We are military, so there are PLENTY of stay at home moms here. We get together and we talk about what's going on. We share our experiences. I wanted to do this for other moms like me who are feeling stressed and hopeless. A lot of the times we are alone with our children while our H's are deployed. We stress everyday if they are coming home or not. 

Some of the new moms just can't handle it sometimes. They are like I was....scared, alone, in a new place, and they have no idea how to deal with their new roles. 

So, My moral of the story is - instead of starting the "SAHMS are lazy and have it soooooo easy" debate...take time to realize that not everyone handles stress in the same way. Depending on what's going on in the family - being a SAHM can completely SUCK at times. 

I think everyone should mind their own business. Unless you know the person that's complaining, you don't have a right to judge their situation. At all.

The same can be said about working moms. The debate over who is right/wrong is so old. We do what is best for our families. Some people get up and go to work and complain about it in every single way possible. But it's ok because they make money? The SAHM better not EVER say she is tired or stressed because she doesn't bring in a paycheck? How is that remotely ok?


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## Anonymous07

staarz21 said:


> So, My moral of the story is - instead of starting the "SAHMS are lazy and have it soooooo easy" debate...take time to realize that not everyone handles stress in the same way. Depending on what's going on in the family - being a SAHM can completely SUCK at times.
> 
> I think everyone should mind their own business. Unless you know the person that's complaining, you don't have a right to judge their situation. At all.
> 
> The same can be said about working moms. The debate over who is right/wrong is so old. We do what is best for our families. Some people get up and go to work and complain about it in every single way possible. But it's ok because they make money? The SAHM better not EVER say she is tired or stressed because she doesn't bring in a paycheck? How is that remotely ok?


:iagree::iagree:

Leave the judgments out because you don't know what other moms are dealing with. Every child is different and every situation is different. You don't know what it's like to be in their shoes. 

I find it sad that some people need to put down others in order to feel good about themselves. If it works for your family, awesome. You don't need to call others lazy or judge how they live their lives differently.


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## bandit.45

In this day and age it takes a very special kind of gal to be a homemaker.


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## Ms. GP

People are the most judgemental in the areas of their life where they carry the most shame. Some working moms feel shame for having others do some of the childcare duties, and some sahm feel shame for not contributing to the family finances. I've done both. I loved being home with my kids. Especially in the summer, but the financial stress was tough. Now I am working and I get homesick, but I feel better about myself for being able to contribute to the family finances. It's a trade off. Nothing is perfect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnigmaGirl

> So, My moral of the story is - instead of starting the "SAHMS are lazy and have it soooooo easy" debate...take time to realize that not everyone handles stress in the same way. Depending on what's going on in the family - being a SAHM can completely SUCK at times.


I don't think nor ever stated that I think SAHMs are lazy but I do think too many of them are short-sighted.

Kids grow up, marriages can end, living expenses go up as kid's age, etc. If I had a buck for every woman on this forum who whined about not being able to leave a crappy marriage because she isn't earning an income...or every woman who couldn't support herself and her kids after her husband left her...I could retire a year early.

I also get tired of hearing SAHP say how hard their role is. Staying at home may come with some level of stress but its nothing like what most working women deal with. Overall though, the investment in working is empowering and is a wonderful safety net for women and their children...so its all worth it.



> I've done both. I loved being home with my kids. Especially in the summer, but the financial stress was tough.


The financial burden it puts on the other partner is very stressful. Also, for the brief period that I stayed home, I found that I didn't have much to talk about with my then husband. My new husband and I both have careers and we enjoy talking about work and helping each other with strategies on projects. Its actually led us to starting a new business together. For me, working is about being a role model for my kids and an equal partner to my husband.


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## EnigmaGirl

> You don't need to call others lazy or judge how they live their lives differently.


LOL...second time someone mentioned the word "lazy" which was never part of anything I said.

Projection much?


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## sisters359

My job--which I love--is an escape from what *I* saw as the boredom and thankless routine of housework. I'm sure there are many ways to make housework intellectually appealing--but none of them appealed to me! I always knew I was lucky to have time with my kids for their first few years, but I was also sooooooooo thankful to go back to working outside the home! One woman's "job" is another's "calling." My current job is intellectually and physically challenging--but doesn't seem hard; it feels satisfying! So it doesn't matter what others think; if you are doing work that doesn't appeal to you, it "feels" harder than doing work you find engaging.


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## Ms. GP

I don't think stay at home parents are any less of a role model to their children. Working may ease some of the financial stress but the other parent then has the stress of picking up the extra domestic and child care duties when the non working patent enters the work force. Every path has difficulties. You just do what works for you and your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anonymous07

EnigmaGirl said:


> think there are *some* stay-at-home parents who have it difficult. For instance, you've got 5 small kids at home or disabled children. But I *roll my eyes* every time I hear some mom with a couple kids saying that staying home is harder than working everyday. Uhhh....no its not...not even close.
> 
> But it wasn't "hard"....there was no comparison with what I did early in my career to juggle working, home and kids. I, like most working women, had to do it all.
> 
> The proudest moments of my life these days are watching my oldest daughter work hard at her new career and knowing that she learned her *work ethic* from me.





EnigmaGirl said:


> LOL...second time someone mentioned the word "lazy" which was never part of anything I said.
> 
> Projection much?


I took it from what you wrote. You talk about only certain mothers having it tough, as the rest have it like you did, a "vacation". The working women "do it all" and the SAHMs don't do as much. Do stay at home parent's not have a work ethic? I was raised by a SAHM and have a great work ethic. I worked my way through high school and college. I put away a lot of money, which makes things easier for my family now with me staying at home. I also currently work part-time and I find my actual job is easier, but I don't claim to know how it is for everyone. There are struggles with each side. Putting down one side doesn't help anyone.


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## staarz21

EnigmaGirl said:


> I don't think nor ever stated that I think SAHMs are lazy but I do think too many of them are short-sighted.
> 
> Kids grow up, marriages can end, living expenses go up as kid's age, etc. If I had a buck for every woman on this forum who whined about not being able to leave a crappy marriage because she isn't earning an income...or every woman who couldn't support herself and her kids after her husband left her...I could retire a year early.
> 
> I also get tired of hearing SAHP say how hard their role is. Staying at home may come with some level of stress but its nothing like what most working women deal with. Overall though, the investment in working is empowering and is a wonderful safety net for women and their children...so its all worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> The financial burden it puts on the other partner is very stressful. Also, for the brief period that I stayed home, I found that I didn't have much to talk about with my then husband. My new husband and I both have careers and we enjoy talking about work and helping each other with strategies on projects. Its actually led us to starting a new business together. For me, working is about being a role model for my kids and an equal partner to my husband.


Why is your way the only right way? I'm not a role model because I stay at home with my children? I worked, I made more than my H. I don't think that made me a better role model then. Now, I handle all of the finances - we have more in the bank now than either of us had when we were growing up. We have no debt - and we are well off. I can teach my kids how to handle their finances in such a way that they have a good future. I have much to offer my kids. Just because I don't leave my house at 530 am anymore to drive to work doesn't mean I cannot be a role model. 

It works for you and your husband. That's great! It doesn't work for me and my husband because he is deployed 6 months of every single year. 7 deployments in his 10 year career - I need to be at home with my children. 

So, see situations are not equal. Who are you to judge which way is right?

I don't judge you for working and not staying at home with your kids. I think you do what is best for your family. You do what makes you happy. In the end, that is really all that matters - you're happy which leads to others being happy in your home. I don't really see a need to put you down for that.


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## Pooh Bear

EnigmaGirl said:


> Interesting article:
> 
> Stay-at-home mom: I hate being a housewife
> 
> I found this very true:
> 
> 
> 
> I think there are some stay-at-home parents who have it difficult. For instance, you've got 5 small kids at home or disabled children. But I roll my eyes every time I hear some mom with a couple kids saying that staying home is harder than working everyday. Uhhh....no its not...not even close.
> 
> I think traditional women's roles are generally unappreciated...which is unfortunate because they're very valuable to family life but they aren't harder than working at a job everyday and having the entire financial burden with zero help from your spouse. I'm glad this article discussed working spouses standing up for themselves. The propaganda about staying home being the most difficult job in the world is total nonsense. Working women raise children, earn a living and take care of their homes too. They often do it all while not leaving their spouse with the entire financial responsibility.
> 
> I stayed at home for a very brief period after my 1st child was born and it was a vacation compared to what I deal with at work. The hardest part was that it was repetitive and boring and when my husband would get home, I had nothing much to talk about and I found myself jealous of him being able to interact with the world. But it wasn't "hard"....there was no comparison with what I did early in my career to juggle working, home and kids. I, like most working women, had to do it all.
> 
> These days I'm grateful everyday for the path I took. With my 2nd child, I had worked hard enough at my career to earn the privilege of bringing my newborn to work with me and work a flex schedule. It was the best of both worlds...I earned a paycheck and nursed my newborn every feeding.
> 
> The proudest moments of my life these days are watching my oldest daughter work hard at her new career and knowing that she learned her work ethic from me.


I don't know enigmagirl. I think this contributes to "mommy wars" and I don't think it's helpful. Let's just appreciate each other for all that we do. I think raising children is difficult period. I heard from someone that in Sweden women get paid for being SAHMs because they are working raising their kids. Some of us are SAHMs and some are working moms. That's ok. I think being a stay at home mom is hard because it is boring. And it is hard raising kids. And I think a lot of SAHMs feel unappreciated. Probably justifiably.


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## techmom

It is bad enough when we have some men who don't appreciate the role their SAHM has, and in countless threads here on TAM where they are belittled with" she's not giving up the sex? Then don't give her money and see how she likes that!" and other such statements. As if she doesn't do ANYTHING. 

Women, we don't need to do this to each other. I hear both working moms and SAHMS complain, all I do is give a shoulder to cry on. We get enough bs from society telling us this and that and for guilt tripping us on whatever we do, for whatever decision we make, and for whatever role we play in our families.

I was a SAHM and now I'm a working mom. I personally like to be working, gives me independence and leverage in a marriage where the only respect given is to who brings home the money.


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## Pooh Bear

techmom said:


> It is bad enough when we have some men who don't appreciate the role their SAHM has, and in countless threads here on TAM where they are belittled with" she's not giving up the sex? Then don't give her money and see how she likes that!" and other such statements. As if she doesn't do ANYTHING.
> 
> Women, we don't need to do this to each other. I hear both working moms and SAHMS complain, all I do is give a shoulder to cry on. We get enough bs from society telling us this and that and for guilt tripping us on whatever we do, for whatever decision we make, and for whatever role we play in our families.
> 
> I was a SAHM and now I'm a working mom. I personally like to be working, gives me independence and leverage in a marriage where the only respect given is to who brings home the money.


Exactly. So much guilt. No matter what you do. If you are a SAHM you feel guilty, insecure or unappreciated for not working. If you are a working mom you feel guilty for putting the kids in daycare. If you are not breastfeeding you feel guilty for feeding the kids formula. The list of things moms can feel guilty of bad about is endless.


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## Pooh Bear

*I don't think nor ever stated that I think SAHMs are lazy but I do think too many of them are short-sighted.*

I think there is that assumption by some people, including men on TAM. They are complaining about their good for nothing SAHMs but then there are other guys telling you that you have to stay home with your kids because they will be eternally damaged if you don't. I'm not sure why you are picking a fight with other women. We really need to have each other's back.


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## LonelyinLove

I am a working outside the home mother. I hate staying home too. 

People need to do what works for their families. 

Now, for the story...my two children go to private Christian School...most of the moms are SAH, and they tell everyone and God how biblical they are for doing so and I get the evil eye for not showing up at school functions during the day because I am working.

Two things about that....the SAH moms send their children to school in uniforms that need ironed, with snackables instead of the 5 course packed lunch mine take, and their houses....OMG....one big giant mess. If they are going to brag about being "homemakers" how about making the home clean? 

And the other thing....Me and my paycheck are just fine when they need a donation.


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## Pooh Bear

I'm sorry about your experience lonelyinlove. That's not right.


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## SimplyAmorous

EnigmaGirl.. I think you might appreciate this comedy skit.. 

Bill Burr On Motherhood The Most Difficult Job on the Planet 

I can :rofl: with this comedian...I can't say this offends me ....and I say this for the most part being "just a stay at home Mom" (I only contribute about 6 % of our income) 

This guy mentions mining/ black lung ...made me think of my H's fathers side...he came from a long line of coal miners, one of his uncles was pulled unrecognizable from a Mine collapse many yrs ago.... very dangerous job...... I have compared what my H does -(thankfully not coal mining but working in adverse weather conditions, below zero , sweltering heat, heavy labor icy roads to get to work, Boss that's been to Anger management twice.. co-workers who complain all the time...(and what other women have to endure on their jobs)...in comparison to myself... and I am well aware and can admit outright ...*I live a "cake walk"*... 

But I am one who enjoys staying home ..I've never found it drudgery... I have complained about a # of things in my life (one was wanting MORE kids so I would have more chaos- crazily)... I was thankful for the freedom I had & obviously I have time to waste on this forum...I really don't care if it's a thank less Job so much...it still gives me purpose -even if it would be a lessor purpose over what many others do and have lived.. 

What does sting though ...if I feel others find my choices stupid, careless , no forethought... then I want to point out just how we have prepared financially -in case the worst does happen... even if I am not a career woman with a qualified skill outside the home, we have planned.. and I will survive financially if he croaks on me. 

Emotionally will be the harder part for me.. I know this..

As for the comedy skit.. I don't , however, think it would be so easy in certain situations... if a woman has experienced postpartum, colicy babies -- this would cause man or woman to pull their hair out.. health issues to slow her down (had a friend with multiple sclerosis that flared after her son)... it's so true, ALL of our situations are just *not* created equal.. 

For me.. I took the easy Bottle feeding route, some Moms may judge that - I also used play pens, gates to make my life easier ..many Moms have been more "hands on" over me.. and that's commendable.. I think we need to give ourselves a break in some areas - and try not to compare too much.. and we all need some time , working or non... for this.....








..










This was a beautiful article done in pictures to illustrate -to how we should give each other some grace with those differences ..I plan to use this on every thread this subject comes up..







>>>Stop the Mommy Wars: Empowering Photo Series


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## soccermom2three

I have been a SAHM and WOHM. Both have their pros and cons. 

To be honest, I don't understand why anyone cares anymore about which one is better.


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## EleGirl

Pooh Bear said:


> I think being a stay at home mom is hard because it is boring. And it is hard raising kids. And I think a lot of SAHMs feel unappreciated. Probably justifiably.


I was a SAHM for a short two years when my son was in 1st and 2nd grade. It took a bit for me to get used to. But it was not boring.

I spent most of my time doing things with my son and his friends. We went to museums, shows, gardened, and on and on. 

He has always been into science. So Edmunds was our favorite store. We used to go get things to do experiments and then spend days doing them. 

I was also on the school board at my son's Catholic School. So that way I was able to meet other people, socialize and be involved in the school

Yes I did house work and cooked and shopped. He helped with most of that. but I did it chores as quickly as I could. I do not live for housework. Nope.

To me being a SAHM is like having your own business. You decide what it will be like and you then make it happen.. or you don't. There is no boss telling you what to do.

If I could have afforded it, I would have loved to be a SAHM... it was fun. Money was tight but that did not mater.


ETA: But the rest of my son's growing up years I worked because someone had to pay the bills. I have had a good career. I'm proud of what I have done at work. But when I was not a work... I did exactly the same stuff I did when I was a SAHM ... all the activities with my son, all the reading to him, teaching him to read, science, etc etc.


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## EleGirl

soccermom2three said:


> I have been a SAHM and WOHM. Both have their pros and cons.
> 
> To be honest, I don't understand why anyone cares anymore about which one is better.


:iagree: Neither is better. Both have pros and cons. And both will exactly what the woman makes them to be.


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## RandomDude

Heh, ex was a SAHM, she complained about one kid, ONE... sheez

And hell she wasn't 'stay-at-home' either, she always took our daughter out (which I did appreciate)... well most of the time anyway, and she lived life and spent and spent and spent. And she thought her life was hard lol


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## *LittleDeer*

I I find this to be a divisive and insulting thread. 

I have been both a SAHM and a working mum. Both are tough, both of them you cop the eye role from someone or insinuations that you have it easier, or should be doing something different. 

If things weren't hard for you as SAHM maybe your circumstances were different to others. 

Saying things are definitely one way and that's that- that is what I call projection.


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## SimplyAmorous

LonelyinLove said:


> I am a working outside the home mother. I hate staying home too.
> 
> People need to do what works for their families.
> 
> Now, for the story...*my two children go to private Christian School...most of the moms are SAH, and they tell everyone and God how biblical they are for doing so and I get the evil eye for not showing up at school functions during the day because I am working.
> 
> Two things about that....the SAH moms send their children to school in uniforms that need ironed, with snackables instead of the 5 course packed lunch mine take, and their houses....OMG....one big giant mess. If they are going to brag about being "homemakers" how about making the home clean?
> 
> And the other thing....Me and my paycheck are just fine when they need a donation*.


I just want to say something...your experience here is VERY UGLY BEHAVIOR from these women....anyone with any understanding would not think down on you for not making it to these daytime functions..

I can tell you..If I was among a group of women LIKE THIS, having time for these things but hearing the snide remarks ....I would look them in the eye and point out how UNFAIR they are being, that I did not agree or would engage with their DOWN TALK.. and I would uplift the working parent(s) not in our presence.... 

Using the Bible (scripture) to make themselves look superior in some way....can't they see how mean spirited this is.....and 2nd .... where would that even BE....there is a scripture that speaks... "if you don't work, you don't eat"...

I would also point out how well they have it-that their husbands can afford them to go to these functions.... and should be of a more thankful spirit in regards to others..

We may all have a different AIM in our wanting to work.. boredom at home, work is fulfilling... working to save for a house, working to pay off debt.. working to pay the bills, working because H is laid off/ disabled.. working because we are single & have to...working to put kids through college..it's endless.. 

Whatever it is... it's all viable and for a purpose in our marriages.. 

Sounds you are very organized & on top of things greatly.. with the homemade meals yet for their lunches.. working every day....even making that time for ironing ! 

Stay at Home Moms like this.. I read stories like this here by other posters.. I can't say anyone I have known acted like this though.. but really.. they make the rest of us look like whiny entitled bi*ches......It's something I sure don't want associated with ..


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## frusdil

Some SAHMs are lazy and entitled. Some working mums are lazy and entitled - the type that sit on FB all day for example, I used to work with one.

There's good and bad in everyone, and I too find this thread very divisive and insulting.

I make a difference in the life of my husband and daughter every day. They are the only ones who matter to me, so I don't feel the need to defend anything I do or don't do.

I must say though, that this is the first time that I have seen a thread on this topic, with sisters coming out swinging, in full support of each other and our choices - awesome


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## Basic"FairyDust"Love

soccermom2three said:


> I have been a SAHM and WOHM. Both have their pros and cons.
> 
> To be honest, I don't understand why anyone cares anymore about which one is better.


I don't understand why people care about what other families are doing if it doesn't directly affect them and no one is being harmed. 

If anything the competitive spirit is harmful with the constant comparing and putting one against another.


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## EnigmaGirl

I absolutely do not care what anyone does in their own families. People can make their own choices. However, I can also say, I have no sympathy for women who find themselves destitute after divorce or death due to poor planning either. Choices have consequences.

My reasons for posting the article were simple. I get tired of hearing the nonsensical propaganda that stay-at-home parents have the hardest job in the world. I hear it constantly and its absolutely ridiculous. And I'm glad this article countered that.

That being said, I never said that stay-at-home parents are lazy. If you create a strawman and argue with yourself...that's simple intellectual dishonesty and says more about you and how you feel than about me. I said that *MY* stay-at-home experience seemed like a vacation as compared to my then normal days of balancing my career and home responsibilities. 

I always find it amusing that when you challenge the "hardest job in the world" argument that there's such backlash.


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## thefam

EnigmaGirl said:


> *I absolutely do not care what anyone does in their own families. * People can make their own choices. However, I can also say, I have no sympathy for women who find themselves destitute after divorce or death due to poor planning either. Choices have consequences.
> 
> My reasons for posting the article were simple. * I get tired of hearing the nonsensical propaganda that stay-at-home parents have the hardest job in the world. I hear it constantly and its absolutely ridiculous. * And I'm glad this article countered that.
> 
> That being said, I never said that stay-at-home parents are lazy. If you create a strawman and argue with yourself...that's simple intellectual dishonesty and says more about you and how you feel than about me. I said that *MY* stay-at-home experience seemed like a vacation as compared to my then normal days of balancing my career and home responsibilities.
> 
> I always find it amusing that when you challenge the "hardest job in the world" argument that there's such backlash.


Those bolded statements kind of contradict each other.

Anyway, I'm not buying your "I find it amusing" and your "lols" as if you have a carefree non-concern regarding SAHMs. For some reason you are a "hater" and you are not masking that at all. You spilled your venom some months ago on this same topic but a different user name (which I can't recall). But I do recall that you got banned (maybe not for your SAHM hatred but just your nastiness in general) and now you're back under another name. Not saying you didn't get permission or whatever, just saying new name, same old nastiness. Whatever.


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## EnigmaGirl

> EnigmaGirl.. I think you might appreciate this comedy skit..
> 
> Bill Burr On Motherhood The Most Difficult Job on the Planet


lol...thanks for posting this. Very funny!


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## Fitnessfan

I'm not sure how anyone could ever know if it's the hardest job in the world or not unless they've worked every single other job in the world for comparison.


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## staarz21

EnigmaGirl said:


> I absolutely do not care what anyone does in their own families. People can make their own choices. However, I can also say,* I have no sympathy for women who find themselves destitute after divorce or death due to poor planning either. Choices have consequences.*
> 
> My reasons for posting the article were simple. I get tired of hearing the nonsensical propaganda that stay-at-home parents have the hardest job in the world. *I hear it constantly and its absolutely ridiculous. * And I'm glad this article countered that.
> 
> That being said, I never said that stay-at-home parents are lazy. *If you create a strawman and argue with yourself...that's simple intellectual dishonesty and says more about you and how you feel than about me.* I said that *MY* stay-at-home experience seemed like a vacation as compared to my then normal days of balancing my career and home responsibilities.
> 
> *I always find it amusing that when you challenge the "hardest job in the world" argument that there's such backlash.*



But this is exactly what I was telling you...most of us DON'T think we have the hardest job in the world. Seems silly to think we do. So, because you encountered a few SAHMs in RL and maybe ONE or TWO on this forum (which I can't even recall there being one that's said anything remotely close to this), you think EVERY SINGLE SAHM has this mentality?

You said you were a good role model for your children right? How is spreading hate, being judgmental, and showing no compassion being a good role model? Seems my kids will have the better role model because I don't sit around saying how not sorry I am for women who didn't have the same upbringing and understandings of the future that I did. 

I have stuff squared away in case something happens to my H. Most SAHMs do. However, there are some who didn't grow up with a mother who taught them how to be prepared for the future. Newsflash, not everyone grows up with a mother who cares about them and prepares them for the world ahead like your mother did as you so eloquently pointed out. 

And let's get real....your first post reeks of SAHMs are lazy. You didn't have to say it at all, but you sure did point it out that being a sahm is like being on vacation. What do people do on vacation? They sit around being lazy and relaxing. 

Excuse me, you said YOUR experience was like being on vacation....so obviously, everyone's experience MUST be like that right? If not, why would you even post this article? You knew it would offend those of us who aren't even halfway like this, yet you still generalized anyway.


----------



## EleGirl

EnigmaGirl said:


> I absolutely do not care what anyone does in their own families. People can make their own choices.* However, I can also say, I have no sympathy for women who find themselves destitute after divorce or death due to poor planning either. Choices have consequences.*.


Do you also post about not having any sympathy for men who do not make good career choices?

Or how about men and women who work but do not save up enough for their retirement?

I have yet to see your posts on that topic. Though you have posted this same sentiment about SAHMs her on TAM before.



EnigmaGirl said:


> My reasons for posting the article were simple. I get tired of hearing the nonsensical propaganda that stay-at-home parents have the hardest job in the world. I hear it constantly and its absolutely ridiculous. And I'm glad this article countered that.
> 
> That being said, I never said that stay-at-home parents are lazy. If you create a strawman and argue with yourself...that's simple intellectual dishonesty and says more about you and how you feel than about me. I said that *MY* stay-at-home experience seemed like a vacation as compared to my then normal days of balancing my career and home responsibilities.
> 
> I always find it amusing that when you challenge the "hardest job in the world" argument that there's such backlash.


So what if a few people say that being a SAHM is the hardest job in the world? Why is this such a thorn in your side? For them it might be because they have never done anything harder. 

If you spend this much energy on everything people say that disagrees with your personal world view and person experience, you are going to get exhausted.


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## Pooh Bear

*So what if a few people say that being a SAHM is the hardest job in the world? *

I think that is something Oprah started. I haven't really heard anyone else say it. But yeah, so what? Maybe that's their experience.


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## Marriedwithdogs

If I had dollar for every time I heard a mom say that working outside the house is easier than staying at home all day with kids, I'd be rich. Listening to tantrums all day, changing diapers, breAking up fights, cleaning up messes,never getting a free moment to yourself unless they're sleeping, is mentally and physically exhausting!!! Nothing easy about it! I've done both and i will say that being away from my kids with my peers was 10 times easier. I sacrificed my desire to work until my youngest was in preK. I mean unless your kids are school age and in school all day, there is NOTHING easy about it, and yea, I'll even disagree with you and say that it IS the most important job in the world bc society has to deal with them if you royally screw up!!!


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## Angelou

I know someone who always wanted to be a SAHM. Now that she is..complain, complain. It could be her personality though. Idk if she doesn't have much to focus on (hard to believe when having three kids). Point is, having any job takes: time, patience, work, etc.


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## NextTimeAround

My mother, she of 6 children, said that being a SAHM was an easy job. After having worked in the corporate sphere, I could see why. She didn't have to make a budget, much less follow one; she had no targets to meet and no evaluation to sweat at the end of 6 months or whatever.

She could be rude, verbally abusive, when we were young she used corporal punishment. she was late, often. No docking of pay there.

As long as you are not encroaching upon someone else's life, you have the freedom to choose whatever is possible for you. I do not have sympathy for those who choose to have large families (>3), but then claim they cannot be the best parent to each child because they have too many. Well, whose choice was that.

These days, I would think that being a SAHP would be easier than before. The internet keeps all of us connected to the rest of the world. The hardware and software to have a home based office is much cheaper than it was before. There are more volunteer opportunities to stay connected to the community and, possibly, to keep skills up to find a job later on.


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## samyeagar

My ex wife was a stay at home mom by her choice, and I supported her decision. I was convinced that it was the best way for the kids and our family. It turned out to be the destruction of our marriage.

This certainly doesn't apply to all stay at home moms, but it is very easy to develop a martyr complex, and become unappreciative of the fact that the working spouse is the bedrock upon which the entire stay at home parent dynamic is built upon.

My ex wife insisted upon a certain standard of living, and living in a specific school district. I made the mistake of not challenging her, even though I saw how untenable our situation was. Instead, I just worked that much harder, was gone that much longer. My job was two hours away, and there was nothing closer that paid anywhere near what I was making. This gave her the ammunition to claim that she may as well have been a single parent. Patently false, but she began to believe it, especially with her tales of woe to our friends. She is diagnosed NPD, so I suspect it was all by design to maximize her fix.

So often in these discussion, we hear how much work, and how much of a sacrifice it is for the SAHP, and I don't deny that it is, but after my experiences, I will stick up for the working spouse because I know how much pressure it is on them, and how often their contribution is trivialized, because regardless of how much they do or don't do to help the SAHP, if they are the sole bread winner, the families entire way of life is dependent upon their contribution.

The funny thing is...now that we are divorced, my ex wife plays up the being a single parent, having to do it all now more than ever...she still does not have a full time job...part time free lance yoga instructor. One of our kids is living with me, I pay for her vehicle, and give her enough in child support and alimony to pay all of her bills, and then some. Disgusting...


----------



## *LittleDeer*

There were times when working at home was the hardest because My husband worked long days, I had little support and my son was a sick baby. Those days were long and hard for both of us, little sleep and it was very frustrating and difficult. 

There are times now when I'm working or studying and they feel like the hardest jobs, because I have less time and I feel bad for spending less time with my son, and I have a long list of things at home to tackle that never ends and I don't have time for. 

Everything is contextual. It's much nicer to have empathy instead of put women down.


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## vellocet

EnigmaGirl said:


> I stayed at home for a very brief period after my 1st child was born and it was a vacation compared to what I deal with at work. The hardest part was that it was repetitive and boring and when my husband would get home, I had nothing much to talk about and I found myself jealous of him being able to interact with the world.


I think that is the main complaint, lack of adult interaction during the day. And its understandable.

I took some vacation when I was married because my wife had to go out of town. I too found it a vacation compared to my job.

She would often complain about the amount of work it took to keep up the house and run after them. I didn't see it. I was able to easily keep the house clean, laundry done, and take them somewhere to play. 

The house was never cleaner than when I took those few days off. And I still got to watch TV quite a bit during the day.


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## samyeagar

vellocet said:


> I think that is the main complaint, lack of adult interaction during the day. And its understandable.
> 
> I took some vacation when I was married because my wife had to go out of town. I too found it a vacation compared to my job.
> 
> She would often complain about the amount of work it took to keep up the house and run after them. I didn't see it. I was able to easily keep the house clean, laundry done, and take them somewhere to play.
> 
> The house was never cleaner than when I took those few days off.


Part of me wonders how much of the "most difficult job in the world", "most thankless job in the world" mindset is because the SAHP actually feel like it is, or that they feel that they are supposed to feel that it is? Or that they have convinced themselves that it is to assuage feeling of guilt that their partner works harder?


----------



## Cletus

samyeagar said:


> Part of me wonders how much of the "most difficult job in the world", "most thankless job in the world" mindset is because the SAHP actually feel like it is, or that they feel that they are supposed to feel that it is? Or that they have convinced themselves that it is to assuage feeling of guilt that their partner works harder?


Most of me doubts that "MDJITW" mindset is real for most. It's a rhetorical device created to raise awareness of how taken for granted may SAHMs feel.

Everyone, SAHMs included, know that it isn't literally the most difficult job in the world.


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## EnjoliWoman

I try to remain pretty objective. I've done both and prefer to work, but not because it's easier or harder - because MY personal situation was mine alone.

I loved being with my daughter for her first two years but was exhausted by a non-supportive and demanding husband. I had no support network around me (i.e. a neighborhood with no other moms) and my husband did not encourage developing a close relationship with others. We sacrificed a car so we could afford for me to stay at home so I couldn't take off and meet an old friend for lunch or spend a day at the mall or even an hour at a playground in case he needed it.

I did not find the work to be overwhelming - I did the errands, kept the house clean (he pitched in some), did the cooking and laundry and was the primary parent 95% of the time. But instead of letting me nap while she napped, he insisted on sex or he would passive-aggressively interrupt my sleep if I declined. He would keep me up late, accusing me of not caring about what he was talking about or reacting angry if I fell asleep before him. I was a zombie.

Because of my location (no neighborhood environment) and travel limitations, I missed adult interaction and the intellectual challenge I found in a career outside the home. I could have found a lot of that as a SAHM in the right environment. I only had one child, no special needs. I can certainly see how more children of varying ages would make this a lot more challenging.

Point is, everyone's reality is their own. I can't walk in anyone else's shoes. Appearances can be deceiving. There are working mother's who would give anything to be able to stay at home spending every extra moment with their children and SAHMs who feel trapped and stunted by the duties of a homemaker. We are all different, none better or worse.


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## vellocet

I'd say its one of the most "important" jobs in the world.

Certainly not the hardest and not all SAHM/SAHD's do what is expected.

When I got home from work the house needed to be cleaned. Who did it?........me.


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## ocotillo

EnigmaGirl said:


> I stayed at home for a very brief period after my 1st child was born and it was a vacation compared to what I deal with at work.


I took an entire year off so my wife could finish an advanced degree. 

I wouldn't exactly call taking care of three children a vacation, but it was paradise compared to working for a first generation disciple of the Steve Jobs school of management.

--Happiest damn year of my life.


----------



## staarz21

samyeagar said:


> My ex wife was a stay at home mom by her choice, and I supported her decision. I was convinced that it was the best way for the kids and our family. It turned out to be the destruction of our marriage.
> 
> This certainly doesn't apply to all stay at home moms, but it is very easy to develop a martyr complex, and become unappreciative of the fact that the working spouse is the bedrock upon which the entire stay at home parent dynamic is built upon.
> 
> My ex wife insisted upon a certain standard of living, and living in a specific school district. I made the mistake of not challenging her, even though I saw how untenable our situation was. Instead, I just worked that much harder, was gone that much longer. My job was two hours away, and there was nothing closer that paid anywhere near what I was making. This gave her the ammunition to claim that she may as well have been a single parent. Patently false, but she began to believe it, especially with her tales of woe to our friends. She is diagnosed NPD, so I suspect it was all by design to maximize her fix.
> 
> So often in these discussion, we hear how much work, and how much of a sacrifice it is for the SAHP, and I don't deny that it is, but after my experiences, I will stick up for the working spouse because I know how much pressure it is on them, and how often their contribution is trivialized, because regardless of how much they do or don't do to help the SAHP, if they are the sole bread winner, the families entire way of life is dependent upon their contribution.
> 
> The funny thing is...now that we are divorced, my ex wife plays up the being a single parent, having to do it all now more than ever...she still does not have a full time job...part time free lance yoga instructor. One of our kids is living with me, I pay for her vehicle, and give her enough in child support and alimony to pay all of her bills, and then some. Disgusting...



See, I am sorry for your situation. I don't think like that at all. If I am staying at home and not bringing in a second income - I am not going to complain or have high standards on specifics neighborhoods, schools, etc. I will live where we can afford to live. I am okay with all of that.

I know my husband is the one we rely on to survive right now. I have that understanding with him. I make sure his house is clean, his uniforms are ironed, dinner is on the table, kids are taken care of....anything he would ask me to do - it's done. 

I don't feel like I am sacrificing anything. Sometimes, I do get lonely, but I don't ever complain about that to my H. 

I really do feel bad for those that have had the unfortunate luck of being with someone so demanding. I grew up extremely poor - so I appreciate every single thing I have. I don't throw money away on trivial material things and I am ok not living up to the Jones standards. 

But with everything, there are a few bad apples in every bunch.


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## vellocet

Pooh Bear said:


> So what if a few people say that being a SAHM is the hardest job in the world?
> *I think that is something Oprah started*.


Well that doesn't bode well for the statement then


----------



## yeah_right

Women need to support each other more. Period. There is too much judging going on with this issue. I see it in my neighborhood too.

I live in a nice "planned community" filled with McMansions and bike paths. I would say most of the women are SAHM's. I've had positive and negative experiences with them.

On the negative side, as soon as I moved in, they reached out to me and first question was "Do you work outside the home?". When they found I worked full-time, they didn't come around much or include my kids in activities. The one other "working" mom on my street had the same reaction. Why? Yes, I work outside the home, but I work inside it too. Ugh. Another negative experience was having my kids on the waitlist for after-school care (because I worked past 3pm, right?). The school's program was much cheaper than the private care I was paying for. I had to wait a year. I learned that the lady in front of me on the list signed up so she could keep her son for cheap two days a week while she had tennis lessons. She was a SAHM. Seriously?

Now for the good...while the SAHM's didn't invite me to Moms Day Out or day trips, they often included my kids in the summer. It was nice to have that. Who knows, they probably felt my kids were neglected and eating from the trash, but that's ok. One mom on the street babysat (for free) the other working mom's kids when her husband passed away. As a working mom, I couldn't have offerred that.

I can't say that I never wished I'd been home for my kids. Of course I did. But with two incomes, we were able to provide them with a safe place to grow up and a great education, along with love. And honestly, I have an independence in my marriage. At any point, I knew that I could walk away and be fine. It's nice to know that I stay with my H because I WANT to, not because I NEED to.

Let's just respect and support each other.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> I think that is the main complaint, lack of adult interaction during the day. And its understandable.
> 
> I took some vacation when I was married because my wife had to go out of town. I too found it a vacation compared to my job.
> 
> She would often complain about the amount of work it took to keep up the house and run after them. I didn't see it. I was able to easily keep the house clean, laundry done, and take them somewhere to play.
> 
> The house was never cleaner than when I took those few days off. And I still got to watch TV quite a bit during the day.


My experience was the same. And funny enough, my house was clean because I had a baby around but not nearly as organized as it is when I'm working because there was no real time table for getting projects done.

I have to keep my house very clean when I'm working because I have to get me and the fam out of the house efficiently in the morning and I'm always running late when I can't find something.

I also found that housework started to become drudgery which surprised me because I love housework and cooking after work...its a nice relaxing change that lets me clear my mind and de-stress.



> Part of me wonders how much of the "most difficult job in the world", "most thankless job in the world" mindset is because the SAHP actually feel like it is, or that they feel that they are supposed to feel that it is? Or that they have convinced themselves that it is to assuage feeling of guilt that their partner works harder?


I can't say that in my experience of staying home that I felt guilty about my husband working harder but I would have felt guilty about leaving him with the entire financial burden after my maternity benefits ran out if I hadn't gone back to work. 

Its just the way I was raised. My role models in life were people like my mom and other women in my family who believed in being self-sufficient. I still remember even my grandmother telling me to never be dependent on any man.


----------



## Marriedwithdogs

yeah_right said:


> Women need to support each other more. Period. There is too much judging going on with this issue. I see it in my neighborhood too.
> 
> I live in a nice "planned community" filled with McMansions and bike paths. I would say most of the women are SAHM's. I've had positive and negative experiences with them.
> 
> On the negative side, as soon as I moved in, they reached out to me and first question was "Do you work outside the home?". When they found I worked full-time, they didn't come around much or include my kids in activities. The one other "working" mom on my street had the same reaction. Why? Yes, I work outside the home, but I work inside it too. Ugh. Another negative experience was having my kids on the waitlist for after-school care (because I worked past 3pm, right?). The school's program was much cheaper than the private care I was paying for. I had to wait a year. I learned that the lady in front of me on the list signed up so she could keep her son for cheap two days a week while she had tennis lessons. She was a SAHM. Seriously?
> 
> Now for the good...while the SAHM's didn't invite me to Moms Day Out or day trips, they often included my kids in the summer. It was nice to have that. Who knows, they probably felt my kids were neglected and eating from the trash, but that's ok. One mom on the street babysat (for free) the other working mom's kids when her husband passed away. As a working mom, I couldn't have offerred that.
> 
> I can't say that I never wished I'd been home for my kids. Of course I did. But with two incomes, we were able to provide them with a safe place to grow up and a great education, along with love. And honestly, I have an independence in my marriage. At any point, I knew that I could walk away and be fine. It's nice to know that I stay with my H because I WANT to, not because I NEED to.
> 
> Let's just respect and support each other.


There are some snotty uppity SAHM's But I'll offer up why they may have kept you at arms length;

They probably figured you wouldn't be interested or have time for a friendship. When I was a SAHM, and met working moms, I subconciously told myself to move along. Not bc I was being judgmental, but bc I knew working moms wouldn't be up for play dates, or chatting on the phone. They had less flexibility to be spontaneous in a friendship. I also felt that they may secretly judge or look down on me. I think there's a lot of assumimg on both parts. I'm sure I have misread others and others have misread me.


----------



## Anonymous07

Marriedwithdogs said:


> There are some snotty uppity SAHM's But I'll offer up why they may have kept you at arms length;
> 
> They probably figured you wouldn't be interested or have time for a friendship. When I was a SAHM, and met working moms, I subconciously told myself to move along. Not bc I was being judgmental, but bc I knew working moms wouldn't be up for play dates, or chatting on the phone. They had less flexibility to be spontaneous in a friendship. I also felt that they may secretly judge or look down on me. I think there's a lot of assumimg on both parts. I'm sure I have misread others and others have misread me.


:iagree:

I had the same thought. I am a SAHM and there is a working mom in my neighborhood with a daughter who is the same age as my son, but I kind of wrote her off in my head because our schedules are so different that I doubt we'd ever see her. She gets home at 7 pm on week days and my weekends are usually packed, so I just don't see it working out for playdates or anything. I think she's a great lady, but I don't see us doing a whole lot together, at least for now.


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## yeah_right

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I had the same thought. I am a SAHM and there is a working mom in my neighborhood with a daughter who is the same age as my son, but I kind of wrote her off in my head because our schedules are so different that I doubt we'd ever see her. She gets home at 7 pm on week days and my weekends are usually packed, so I just don't see it working out for playdates or anything. I think she's a great lady, but I don't see us doing a whole lot together, at least for now.


If your neighborhood has an online group, invite her to join that. Mine does and it gives me a tiny bit of connection to the SAHM's. It's for women only and they give each other advice on local businesses, discuss school issues and even gossip a little. Of course, my kids are all in college now so playdates are a thing of my past. But I'd like to be invited to a Scentsy or Passion party occasionally. LOL.

The working moms often feel judged as "bad moms" by their SAH counterparts. I'm sure SAHM's feel judged too. Unfortunate.


----------



## yeah_right

I don't know if I can post videos from FB, but here is one that's been floating around my timeline from Boys Germs

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=891588640861740

It fits a bit into this discussion.


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## WandaJ

I do not thin it is hardest job, but it is not for me. I did five years of this, first three probably in depression. I am much happier now working. It is different type of stress.


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## WandaJ

vellocet said:


> I think that is the main complaint, lack of adult interaction during the day. And its understandable.
> 
> I took some vacation when I was married because my wife had to go out of town. I too found it a vacation compared to my job.
> 
> She would often complain about the amount of work it took to keep up the house and run after them. I didn't see it. I was able to easily keep the house clean, laundry done, and take them somewhere to play.
> 
> The house was never cleaner than when I took those few days off. And I still got to watch TV quite a bit during the day.


But for how long would you find it satisfying?


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## vellocet

WandaJ said:


> But for how long would you find it satisfying?


As long as someone was paying the bills, pretty much indefinitely. I loved it. Had time to myself above what I did at work.

Besides, I got tired of the house not being cleaned and when I had to do it for those few days, I realized, it didn't take much and I still had time to myself during the day. I like a clean house and I not only had to work all day, I had to come home and clean the house because she didn't.

As far as not being satisfying for my x-wife, being a SAHM is what she wanted...and hate to say it, because she was lazy. Didn't want to work an 8 hour a day job. She wanted the freedom to decide what to do and when. She decided to do very little.

So she brought up the issue of lacking adult conversation and such, which I addressed when I got home (after I picked the house up because she didn't), and even watched the kids so she could have some fun time with her friends, which she in turn used to cheat. Go figure.


----------



## Anonymous07

yeah_right said:


> I don't know if I can post videos from FB, but here is one that's been floating around my timeline from Boys Germs
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=891588640861740
> 
> It fits a bit into this discussion.


I've seen the video floating around. I like that video, but you know people always have to pick something apart. Sad. Some moms were mad that it was done by a formula company and that the nursing babies were covered(they were mostly dolls!). I don't know if the "mom wars" will ever end. 

One of my best mom friends was a woman who did mostly opposite of what I did, but neither of us ever judged each other and we got along great. She formula fed, used the stroller often, used bought baby food, and so on while I breastfed, baby wore my son more often than used the stroller, did baby led weaning, etc. I really miss her since I moved away.


----------



## samyeagar

And then you throw this kind of stuff into the mix...

Salary.com's 14th Annual Mom Salary Survey - Salary.com


----------



## Anonymous07

samyeagar said:


> And then you throw this kind of stuff into the mix...
> 
> Salary.com's 14th Annual Mom Salary Survey - Salary.com


I don't see an issue with it. It talks about the work that doesn't get noticed(house cleaner, cook, referee between kids, tutor, etc.) and what that could "cost" if someone were actually hired to do it. The working mom would get "paid" for what she did at home in addition to what she made at her actual job. Many moms feel taken for granted for what they do at home and I know I have in the past, since my husband had treated me that way. It can give the moms a boost to see that what they do has more value than they might have thought.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> I don't see an issue with it. It talks about the work that doesn't get noticed(house cleaner, cook, referee between kids, tutor, etc.) and what that could "cost" if someone were actually hired to do it. The working mom would get "paid" for what she did at home in addition to what she made at her actual job. Many moms feel taken for granted for what they do at home and I know I have in the past, since my husband had treated me that way. It can give the moms a boost to see that what they do has more value than they might have thought.


I think its a very reasonable to have a budget or a wage for a SAHP so that they have a savings plan of their own in the event of a divorce, death, etc. Plus its demeaning to have to ask for money like a little kid. 

The problem always is getting back into the job market after a long absence from working. The job market isn't as easy to get into as it used to be...especially at certain ages in starting jobs.


----------



## Anonymous07

EnigmaGirl said:


> I think its a very reasonable to have a budget or a wage for a SAHP so that they have a savings plan of their own in the event of a divorce, death, etc. Plus its demeaning to have to ask for money like a little kid.
> 
> The problem always is getting back into the job market after a long absence from working. The job market isn't as easy to get into as it used to be...especially at certain ages in starting jobs.


I don't ask for money like a little kid and don't know anyone who does that. It's our money in our joint account, much of which was money I earned before having our son. I spend the money as needed for groceries, gas in the car, bills, etc. Big financial decisions are always talked about first, for both my husband and I. 

Yes, it's a risk, but it's always doable. If you don't want to take that risk, it's fine, but others want to. My mom was a SAHM for 9 years, then went back to work as a teacher. I know of a number of other women who also did similar, being a SAHM for a number of years and then going back to work as their kids got older. 

People do what works for their family.


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## staarz21

EnigmaGirl said:


> I think its a very reasonable to have a budget or a wage for a SAHP so that they have a savings plan of their own in the event of a divorce, death, etc. * Plus its demeaning to have to ask for money like a little kid. *
> 
> The problem always is getting back into the job market after a long absence from working. The job market isn't as easy to get into as it used to be...especially at certain ages in starting jobs.


I have never once asked my H for money. I have a debit card, I use it like my H does....when we need to. I am the one that sorts the finances out. I wouldn't even halfway ask for money like a little kid and if he expected me to - we wouldn't be together.


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## EnigmaGirl

I wasn't trying to suggest that all SAHP ask for money but some do ...some working people refuse to turn their paychecks over and it should never work that way. I actually have a friend that works, hands her paycheck over to her husband who manages the finances and has to justify even simple purchases. I would find that demeaning.

The point is both partners should ALWAYS have access to their own funds for emergency situations and its optimal to also have separate access to funds for discretionary spending.

I apologize for not considering the hyper-sensitivity of the SAHP crowd and not qualifying everything I type. I make ZERO apologies for having a fundamental lack of respect for people with no financial independence. Its my opinion, if you don't care for it, please feel free to disregard my comments....because I guarantee that my opinion on financially dependent, able-bodied adults will never change.


----------



## staarz21

EnigmaGirl said:


> I wasn't trying to suggest that all SAHP ask for money but some do ...some working people refuse to turn their paychecks over and it should never work that way. I actually have a friend that works, hands her paycheck over to her husband who manages the finances and has to justify even simple purchases. I would find that demeaning.
> 
> The point is both partners should ALWAYS have access to their own funds for emergency situations and its optimal to also have separate access to funds for discretionary spending.
> 
> I apologize for not considering the hyper-sensitivity of the SAHP crowd and not qualifying everything I type. I make ZERO apologies for having a fundamental lack of respect for people with no financial independence. Its my opinion, if you don't care for it, please feel free to disregard my comments....because I guarantee that my opinion on financially dependent, able-bodied adults will never change.


And there you go again. You came here with an article and proceeded to insult....ever so slightly a particular group of people. This group of people has already told you that they have set away funds for emergencies, have access to finances "just in case", and doesn't have the " I'm doing the hardest job in the world" mentaility. You are now proceeding to call us hyper sensitive now with your lame @ss, fake apology for offending us hyper sensitive folk. 


If you had presented your article and said "I agree with this article, in my experience............. Then went on to say that you believe it's best women be prepared for certain circumstances, any opinions? 

Then allowed us to give opinions as well....we could have maybe had a decent adult discussion about this. You would have realized that not everyone is the same. 

Instead I guess you like to call people names that disagree with you. That must be one of you excellent role model characteristics.


I never wanted you to apologize for what you believe in. But you believe it with such negativity that you spew it out when talking (typing) about it. Don't worry, I'm bowing out of your thread now. Have fun.


----------



## samyeagar

EnigmaGirl said:


> I wasn't trying to suggest that all SAHP ask for money but some do ...some working people refuse to turn their paychecks over and it should never work that way. I actually have a friend that works, hands her paycheck over to her husband who manages the finances and has to justify even simple purchases. I would find that demeaning.
> 
> The point is both partners should ALWAYS have access to their own funds for emergency situations and its optimal to also have separate access to funds for discretionary spending.
> 
> I apologize for not considering the hyper-sensitivity of the SAHP crowd and not qualifying everything I type. I make ZERO apologies for having a fundamental lack of respect for people with no financial independence. Its my opinion, if you don't care for it, please feel free to disregard my comments....because I guarantee that my opinion on financially dependent, able-bodied adults will never change.


Oh for sure. I was the working parent, handed my pay check over to my ex wife, the SAHM, and had to ask her for money.


----------



## chillymorn

staarz21 said:


> I have never once asked my H for money. I have a debit card, I use it like my H does....when we need to. I am the one that sorts the finances out. I wouldn't even halfway ask for money like a little kid and if he expected me to - we wouldn't be together.


I gave my check to my wife to manage for 20 years. Thought we were like minded she did the shopping and we discussed all big ticket items.

Then one day a bill collector called!!!!!!!!!! Found out she was hiding massive debt!

I would not advise anyone to trust their spouce 
If you earn it then you better be deciding what to do with it! 
If you don't work then well your at the mercy of the one who dose. 

That's how I roll now! 

If you want to sit down and do bills together as a team and budget that's cool but I always have the final say because I earned it!

If she or anybody else don't like it the door is that way don't let it hit you in the a$$ !

With that said I am the most responsible guy with money. I,m not selfish and all reasonable requests are met!


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> Don't worry, I'm bowing out of your thread now.


Cool



> I would not advise anyone to trust their spouce
> If you earn it then you better be deciding what to do with it!
> If you don't work then well your at the mercy of the one who dose.
> 
> That's how I roll now!
> 
> If you want to sit down and do bills together as a team and budget that's cool but I always have the final say because I earned it!
> 
> If she or anybody else don't like it the door is that way don't let it hit you in the a$$ !
> 
> With that said I am the most responsible guy with money. I,m not selfish and all reasonable requests are met!


I would never support any able-bodied adult so I get what you're saying but I can't imagine approving or having to get approval for smaller amounts of discretionary spending. Large purchases I understand you making the final say. 

I would say that about 20% of the purchases I make, my husband just doesn't understand...he's got different priorities for spending. 

I would agree with your point about not trusting your spouse to solely handle all financial matters in case of a marital breakdown.



> Oh for sure. I was the working parent, handed my pay check over to my ex wife, the SAHM, and had to ask her for money.


lol, yea that would never work for me.


----------



## jld

intheory said:


> Motherhood and homemaking as an occupation is totally devalued.
> 
> Be honest, in our culture, if it doesn't earn money; it doesn't count.
> 
> It's tied together with feminism. Women wanted to be free from the fear of depending on men for money. Money counts. Money is power. If you make money, you matter.
> 
> It is very sad to me.
> 
> "The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world"
> 
> "Give me the child until he is
> seven and I care not who has him thereafter."


I like and agree with most of this, but I feel compelled to defend feminism. 

If men had always valued women, and the rich had always respected the poor, we would not have feminism. There would be no need for it.

As long as there are men who do not value women, and rich, powerful people who are okay with taking advantage of the poor and middle class, there will be a need for feminism.

I think there are women who would love to be home, but they can give their families a more comfortable living by working. Money buys educational opportunities for children. Who does not want a better life for their children?

I think a more just economic system could go far towards straightening out a good bit of the tension between the sexes.


----------



## northernlights

EnigmaGirl said:


> I stayed at home for a very brief period after my 1st child was born and it was a vacation compared to what I deal with at work.


I found staying home with one newborn to be very easy as well. Doing so for just a very brief period gives you zero insight into what it's like to be a SAHP. None.

My first daughter was an easygoing kid, so I worked part-time from home until my second was born. Worked for me, worked for H, worked for baby. When my second was born, holy hell. I though for sure I'd keep working, but no way. Far more demanding child, physical therapy daily, no more time for work.

I didn't start working part-time again until she was 4 (well, a few hours per week starting when she was 1, but no more than 5 hrs/week), and then I was back to full-time, out of the house when she started K. 

Every balance was different. But I always took control of my work situation instead of complaining about how easy other people must have it. When SAH parenting left me extra time, I picked up part time work. Easy fix. Why put that energy into judging?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

yeah_right said:


> The working moms often feel judged as "bad moms" by their SAH counterparts. I'm sure SAHM's feel judged too. Unfortunate.


I went to a Mops group for 14 yrs and I swear... I never felt this Until I came to this forum...reading some of the threads here.. There were Moms who worked full time, didn't work at all and some part time, some who took time off, some were married to Doctors, others like me blue collar husbands.. none of it seemed to matter.. 










For me .. in getting along with anyone. .. it has so much MORE to do with personality ...is this person NICE.. is she Open, enjoys having a conversation... there is so much more to life....now if I got a feeling of Snobbery.. I probably wouldn't open my mouth to this sort of women... 

There were women in those groups who I gravitated more to, .... just because of their demeanor & how they approached ME.....but still it had absolutely NOTHING to do with their SAHM or Working status....like at all. 

We never had a conversation or even touched on "Mommy Wars" in those 14 yrs I went there.... some had marriage issues - we supported them...some spoke of trying to juggling it all.. and we all listened as a whole.. we primarily shared about being a Mom, the challenges, the rewards.... which we all could relate to.. I don't know.. I guess the Ladies in charge did an awesome job as I can look back & say I haven't experienced these things !

Reading here has surely opened my eyes to how some THINK though..


----------



## GTdad

I've tried to avoid weighing in on this thread but ... can't ... resist ....

My wife has been a SAHM since our third child was born, 20 years ago. It's something she wanted to do, and we were/are in a position where we could. We also agreed to have a bunch of kids, eight in all. She wanted more, actually, but jeez, its was getting kind of iffy as to whether I'd live long enough to retire as it was. We still have four minor kids living at home. We homeschool.

I work in a stressful job. I'm legal counsel for a number of universities, and something is always catching on fire. Sometimes I think of myself as more of a janitor than a lawyer. And you know what? I wouldn't trade jobs with my wife any day of the week. That woman absolutely loves what she does, but it is damn hard work. I pinch hit when my wife is sick or whatever, and I look foward to getting back to the relatively low-stress world of batsh*t-crazy faculty members, homicidal students, and coaches who think NCAA rules are more like suggestions.

I have nothing but props for her efforts.


----------



## jld

We homeschool, too. I think it's hard to explain all the advantages of this lifestyle. It is a sacrifice on the part of the parents, but I think it pays off in the long term.


----------



## GTdad

jld said:


> We homeschool, too. I think it's hard to explain all the advantages of this lifestyle. It is a sacrifice on the part of the parents, but I think it pays off in the long term.


I agree, and it's been gratifying to see their success both academically and as people in general. I had concerns and a few reservations, and it was a relief to have those largely dispelled.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I could absolutely NEVER "HOME SCHOOL".... I don't have the patience, I would rather cook for an army..and clean a Barn... 

but don't ask me to teach toddlers.. some women are great at this.. I can't stand it !!...I start yawning.. when they get bored & start whining, I am ready to pull my hair out.. .... God Bless our Teachers ! 

I really enjoy the teens years however.. but by then they *know* more than I do...


----------



## jld

GTdad said:


> I agree, and it's been gratifying to see their success both academically and as people in general. I had concerns and a few reservations, and it was a relief to have those largely dispelled.


What were your concerns and reservations?

For us, homeschooling was Dug's idea. He told me the first week we were dating that he wanted us to breast-feed and homeschool our children. 

Within the first few months he told me he wanted a lot of children, at least three but no more than eight. He said he didn't think we could give enough attention to more than eight. We have five.


----------



## northernlights

We haven't homeschooled, but when I was a SAHP we lived abroad with the kids (H is European, so are the kids, and H works from home so it worked for us). There is NOTHING like the flexibility and opportunities you can access by being free to go where you want, when you want. I'm happy I'm working full-time again (my kids have expressed their dissatisfaction!), but we're in that tricky financial place that without my salary and benefits, we can't keep living like that, and with my job, we can't keep living like that. Oh well though, it was fantastic while it lasted!


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I could absolutely NEVER "HOME SCHOOL".... I don't have the patience, I would rather cook for an army..and clean a Barn...
> 
> but don't ask me to teach toddlers.. some women are great at this.. I can't stand it !!...I start yawning.. when they get bored & start whining, I am ready to pull my hair out.. .... God Bless our Teachers !
> 
> I really enjoy the teens years however.. but by then they *know* more than I do...


I love the teen years too. But we have to get through all those little kid years to get to the fun years.


----------



## jld

I have to say, I'm feeling pretty thankful for the last few posts. Sometimes I feel frustrated by being at home. I love my children, but I know I would enjoy the challenge (and recognition) of paid employment, too. 

It is nice to feel affirmed and encouraged. Thank you.


----------



## yeah_right

intheory said:


> Motherhood and homemaking as an occupation is totally devalued.
> 
> Be honest, in our culture, if it doesn't earn money; it doesn't count.
> 
> It's tied together with feminism. *Women wanted to be free from the fear of depending on men for money*. Money counts. Money is power. If you make money, you matter.
> 
> It is very sad to me.
> 
> "The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world"
> 
> "Give me the child until he is
> seven and I care not who has him thereafter."




As someone in their middle age who nearly divorced two years ago, I need to say this is a real fear. If I had been a SAHM and divorced, I would get by, but it would not be a cake-walk. Someone from my grandmother's generation would be devastated. Feminism has given us a choice...the ability to even have this discussion. Feminism is not the problem. Women are not the bulk of politicians (both parties!) and corporate leaders who have led this country to where it is now.


----------



## GTdad

jld said:


> What were your concerns and reservations?


I was confident that we could provide them a quality education. My concerns were the common ones you see as to socialization and classroom ability once they hit higher education. Neither have arisen. In our area there is a large and active homeschool community. Many classes are taught on a cooperative basis. For example, my wife teaches biology to a number of kids, and I have taught on the Constitution as well as debate. Plenty of opportunities for social interaction.

And once they've hit higher ed, they've done quite well.

There's some push-and-pull in the homeschool community between what you might call the hard-core religious fundamentalists and those, like us, of a little more secular bent, but that dynamic can be educational as well.


----------



## jld

We are secular, too. And I'm very relaxed about the studies in the early years. When they get to be between 10 and 12 the schoolwork really starts. And they manage it themselves. That is a big part of their learning to take responsibility for their education.

Our oldest, our daughter, is a sophomore in chemical engineering at a state school. She was in a national research competition last fall, and she placed first, beating kids from Yale and Berkeley. We were so proud of her.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> What were your concerns and reservations?
> 
> For us, homeschooling was Dug's idea. He told me the first week we were dating that he wanted us to breast-feed and homeschool our children.


My wife was a SAHM for 15 years as well. 

I married a teacher, and I have always looked at the homeschool movement a little askance. Mostly because, at least where I live, it's largely rooted in a desire to keep children from learning things of which the parents disapprove - mostly around the sciences. If someone is keeping his child out of school to avoid exposure to evolution, I'm not going to be very sympathetic to that position. 

The other issue I've had is in the ability of the average American to teach complex subject matter. I know how well many people understand math, science, and grammar. I would never want my child educated to that standard. Conversations I've had with homeschoolers tells me that they usually farm out the more difficult subject matter when their children exceed their abilities, which is a good thing. 

So I'm certainly not against it. We homeschooled my son for one year ourself for other reasons, but I also don't have that distrust of the public school system that seems to permeate the homeschool movement.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> My wife was a SAHM for 15 years as well.
> 
> I married a teacher, and I have always looked at the homeschool movement a little askance. Mostly because, at least where I live, it's largely rooted in a desire to keep children from learning things of which the parents disapprove - mostly around the sciences. If someone is keeping his child out of school to avoid exposure to evolution, I'm not going to be very sympathetic to that position.
> 
> The other issue I've had is in the ability of the average American to teach complex subject matter. I know how well many people understand math, science, and grammar. I would never want my child educated to that standard. Conversations I've had with homeschoolers tells me that they usually farm out the more difficult subject matter when their children exceed their abilities, which is a good thing.
> 
> So I'm certainly not against it. We homeschooled my son for one year ourself for other reasons, but I also don't have that distrust of the public school system that seems to permeate the homeschool movement.


Yeah, our family does not have much in common with those folks. 

You did read that my kids educate themselves though, right? I give them a general outline and they do the work. They take care of all their own grading, making their own transcripts, preparing for standardized tests, etc. It really helps them become responsible.

When my daughter first started college, she was surprised at how teacher-dependent the other students were, even other homeschooled students. She has really seen the benefit to having schooled herself.

I was a teacher, by the way, for three years before I had children. That's why I was open to homeschooling when my husband brought it up. I saw how schools were, and wanted something that would let our kids learn at their own pace and according to their interests.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Yeah, our family does not have much in common with those folks.
> 
> You did read that my kids educate themselves though, right? I give them a general outline and they do the work. They take care of all their own grading, making their own transcripts, preparing for standardized tests, etc. It really helps them become responsible.
> 
> When my daughter first started college, she was surprised at how teacher-dependent the other students were, even other homeschooled students. She has really seen the benefit to having schooled herself.
> 
> I was a teacher, by the way, for three years before I had children. That's why I was open to homeschooling when my husband brought it up. I saw how schools were, and wanted something that would let our kids learn at their own pace and according to their interests.


IMHO, that's the right motivation for homeschooling - to improve your child's education, not to censor it. As a teacher, you were also trained at least nominally in helping people to learn.

Any time a child has a well prepared teacher all to himself, there's almost no way he can't maximize his potential. No distractions, no disruptive classmates, no slowing down for the rest of the class to catch up, no speeding through the material before it's properly grasped. It sounds like it's worked out very well for you.


----------



## jld

Thanks, Cletus. I think homeschooling is one of the best choices we ever made. 

Tbh, I was feeling kind of discouraged this morning. My husband is gone most of the time, and it's just the kids and me. I hear about the interesting jobs that people here have, and my life just seems so boring in comparison. And yet I know that what I am doing with my children has its own value.

It's so important to be connected with our deepest values, and to make sure that the way we are spending our lives reflects those deepest values. I was a little disconnected this morning, but now I'm feeling back on track. So thanks again to everyone who's participated in the past few pages of this thread.


----------



## northernlights

When I was home full-time, my sister was working (3 kids, toddler to teen). It was reassuring to both of us that we each feel, at some points, like we're making the wrong choice, our work has no real value, and we've done everything wrong. Grass is always greener stuff. Everyone has those days.


----------



## jld

northernlights said:


> When I was home full-time, my sister was working (3 kids, toddler to teen). It was reassuring to both of us that we each feel, at some points, like we're making the wrong choice, our work has no real value, and we've done everything wrong. Grass is always greener stuff. Everyone has those days.


I totally relate to that. I know it's not true, but I totally relate to feeling that way.

Thanks for sharing that, northern.


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Tbh, I was feeling kind of discouraged this morning. My husband is gone most of the time, and it's just the kids and me. I hear about the interesting jobs that people here have, and my life just seems so boring in comparison. And yet I know that what I am doing with my children has its own value.
> 
> It's so important to be connected with our deepest values, and to make sure that the way we are spending our lives reflects those deepest values. I was a little disconnected this morning, but now I'm feeling back on track. So thanks again to everyone who's participated in the past few pages of this thread.


to paragraph 1 - I love my job, really love it, but would prefer to play baseball with my boys all day or take them fishing or just to the park.... They pay me to work for a reason, LOL.

Your 2nd paragraph is spot on to me.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

yeah_right said:


> As someone in their middle age who nearly divorced two years ago, I need to say this is a real fear. If I had been a SAHM and divorced, I would get by, but it would not be a cake-walk. Someone from my grandmother's generation would be devastated. Feminism has given us a choice...the ability to even have this discussion. Feminism is not the problem. Women are not the bulk of politicians (both parties!) and corporate leaders who have led this country to where it is now.


With feminism I feel that at times the baby is thrown out with the bath water. I completely understand the dislike for the existence extremist feminism and the fact that also moderate feminism has not been able to deal with large questions of sexism for women and men. However, I cannot forget that this ideology did allow for women to gain the right to vote and brought up important human rights questions. 

It would be like asking for us to disdain the Civil Rights movement because of the extremists during this time such as the Black Panthers. It was also a positive movement that tackled difficult issues, had its extremists, and had a moderate side that has now stalled with truly overcoming racism.

I actually tend to shy away from the feminist label due to what I see as large flaws in its ideology and more of an equalist. Though as an equalist I would like to see individual groups. Such as the set up of one nation with several different political groups. One equalist/human rights movement with women/male/black/white/brown/yellow/purple movements all in it bringing out different problems. I just think the feminist movement is a bit too limited to do that. Human rights is a better banner for me.

But neither do I want to disparage what the feminist movement has done either.

/end threadjack


----------



## Cletus

Maria Canosa Gargano said:


> But neither do I want to disparage what the feminist movement has done either.


Like everything in life, it comes with a little good and a little bad. Congratulations on being above absolute black-and-white thinking that rarely holds any answers.


----------



## scatty

I loved, loved, loved being a SAHM. Technically, I still am, but since my "baby" is 13 now, I consider myself a housewife now. 

I enjoyed almost everything about being home with my kids. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was (am) a very organized person. I ran a tight ship. The kids weren't just running wild, tearing apart the house, like some would assume.

When my last came along, I was dx'ed with a mental illness and I wasn't able to do the same with him. At that time my now-hubby got hurt at work and took over some of my duties. I still feel guilty. I think every parent has guilt, no matter what they do or don't do. I joke that parenthood is love-worry-guilt-repeat until you die, because being a parent never ends.


----------



## Cletus

intheory said:


> So let me try to explain: No man menstruates, gestates,"parturates", or lactates. Honoring and elevating those natural abilities of women, to me, would be the purest form of feminism.


As a man, you lost me here.

Why should we honor or elevate natural biological processes? And of course the corollary, why would we debase them (which, FWIW, is what I think of as the obvious target for feminism)? I can't gestate a baby, but you can't make one on your own either.

Surely you've seen the book "Everybody Poops". I much prefer to elevate people for what they do, not what they are.


----------



## jld

I think intheory is trying to say that we all have value, male and female. I agree.


----------



## ocotillo

intheory said:


> So let me try to explain....


--Musing along with you. 

There was a book published in 1953 entitled _The Natural Superiority of Women_ which outlined a number of strengths women have that men lack. (e.g. The redundancy of two X chromosomes protects women from things like color blindness, hemophilia and its first cousin, Christmas disease, etc.) 

You would think a book like this would have been popular in feminist circles. But it wasn't. They saw it as an apostasy from the idea that we are essentially the same under the skin.

It's not that I disagree in any way with equality, but I think the underlying ideology can be taken to an unhealthy extreme where men and women both lose empathy for each other.


----------



## jld

_If we could recognize and value the differences . . ._


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano

Cletus said:


> Like everything in life, it comes with a little good and a little bad. Congratulations on being above absolute black-and-white thinking that rarely holds any answers.


Aww shucks  thanks!


----------



## vellocet

I'm a "housewife" now, and I love it. Well, I am one after I get off work.


----------



## skype

vellocet said:


> I'm a "housewife" now, and I love it. Well, I am one after I get off work.


Get me a sammich! Waiting for a pic of you in a French maid outfit.


----------



## vellocet

skype said:


> Get me a sammich! Waiting for a pic of you in a French maid outfit.


Coming right up!!!


----------



## Maricha75

Pink is definitely your color, vellocet. :rofl:


----------



## GTdad

Maricha75 said:


> Pink is definitely your color, vellocet. :rofl:


He's got pretty nice legs. :thumbup:


----------



## Cletus

There's a fantasy all shot to hell.


----------



## Dogbert

"Vel, you sure look perty. Will ya be mah wife?"


----------



## batsociety

I took two and a half years off when my youngest daughters were born and it almost killed me. I was SO bored. 

I was really looking forward to it because up until then it had been like, 12 years of non-stop working and studying and I had some residual guilt about not spending as much time with my older kids as I should have. Plus, doing nothing has always been my favorite past time. Sitting all day just making sure the babes were alive sounded fantastic.

But it wasn't. After about a month I was going stir crazy. The housework that needed to be done was done in about an hour. I couldn't really go anywhere that I might have wanted to go because it was too difficult to shove a twin stroller into little stores and cafes. All of my friends/family worked during the day for most of the week, and I never really clicked with the other parents at my kids' school (private school, most of the parents I have met are unbearably pompous). 

I even went to mommy and me classes when the girls were old enough. That was a whole new breed of hell. The kids hated it, too. They were cool to just run around and play with toys that weren't theirs, but as soon as we started with the bonding activities it was tantrum city. And, of course, I was the only dad there so it's like "ha ha, look at that guy trying to wrangle his kids" (excuse me if my kids are too smart to give a sh*t about what the wheels on the bus are doing). Luckily I did find a friend in one of the moms, but she worked, too. That day was the only day she had off so we couldn't really hang out.

I was so happy to go back to work. I told my husband straight up that if we managed to have any more accidents, HE was going to be the one who sat around and did nothing all day. And now we are having two more and that's exactly what he's going to be doing, I'll maybe take a month off when they're born (or when I get too fat to function). Don't get me wrong, I have endless respect for SAHPs (I mean, the fact that people can do this for years and years without chewing their own limbs off is incredible) but it's definitely not for me.


Also,



intheory said:


> So let me try to explain: No man menstruates, gestates, "parturates", or lactates.


Friendly reminder that trans, non-binary and intersex people exist


----------



## aine

I did both the stay at home mum and full time career and to be honest found the SAHM role much more difficult. The mindless chores, the multitasking, organising everyone's time tables, the driving here and there, tutoring, baking, etc. The kids loved having me at home but initially I thought I had become brain dead. The most mental or intellectual stimulation I got was from reading recipes and making art and craft. Whilst I appreciated the opportunity to be with my kids I was losing myself for no pay or recognition. So to those women who find it difficult to be SAHM, kudos to you, you will reap the benefits later when the kids grow up (they will appreciate it) but never give up on your own self, try and continue to grow, attend classes, read, etc.


----------



## batsociety

intheory said:


> I hope that makes my meaning clear. I meant no offense.


Oh no, it's fine, no offense taken  Sometimes I'm just a little quick to jump on opportunities to tackle erasure.


----------



## Anon Pink

batsociety said:


> And, of course, I was the only dad there...
> 
> I told my husband straight up that if *we managed to have any more accidents*, HE was going to be the one who sat around and did nothing all day.
> 
> 
> Friendly reminder that trans, non-binary and intersex people exist



Forgive me if I seem insensitive but I'm very confused. How do two men have pregnancy accidents?


----------



## ConanHub

Anon Pink said:


> Forgive me if I seem insensitive but I'm very confused. How do two men have pregnancy accidents?


I thought I had missed something. Maybe they have some breeding stock laying around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> The mindless chores, the multitasking, organising everyone's time tables, the driving here and there, tutoring, baking, etc.


I still do this (except for the tutoring...I only occasionally help with homework) and I work full-time. I also take work home with me on Saturdays because I take a half-day on Fridays to volunteer at the school.

I make dinner every night although sometimes I use a crock pot or pressure cooker to make it easier. I clean...I run kids to lessons...I manage the schedules using a spreadsheet every day.

I find it interesting that the assumption is that working women simply don't take care of kids and home everyday. We do...we simply do it while contributing to the financial obligations of the family.

Granted, I only have 2 kids...I'm sure it would be a lot harder to do it all if I had more children or if I had children with challenges.


----------



## batsociety

Anon Pink said:


> Forgive me if I seem insensitive but I'm very confused. How do two men have pregnancy accidents?


I'm intersex, externally male but with a functional female reproductive system. Folk like me are usually infertile, but I'm one of the "lucky" ones who isn't. To top it off I have a congenital rectovaginal fistula (apologies to squeamish folk, this means a tear/opening in the rectovaginal septum) which may be related to my condition or completely unrelated. It's a perfect storm kind of situation; there are a number of things that are "wrong" with me that would not usually coincide, but again, I'm "lucky". It's kind of hard to explain in short and without extensive diagrams but that's the brunt of it.


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## ocotillo

batsociety said:


> It's kind of hard to explain in short and without extensive diagrams but that's the brunt of it.


Klinefelter syndrome? --Please accept my humble apologies if this is too nosy a question.


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## batsociety

ocotillo said:


> Klinefelter syndrome? --Please accept my humble apologies if this is too nosy a question.


No, Klienfelter syndrome is different again. I'm 46, XX while they're 47, XXY.

None of the doctors/scientists who have poked and prodded at me have managed to put a name to it. I've heard "congenital adrenal hyperplasia", I've heard "sex reversal syndrome", a handful of other things. It just doesn't _quite_ meet the criteria to be classed as any existing condition they know of. Yet. Maybe when I die and my body is at their disposal we'll finally get a definitive answer.


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## Cletus

batsociety said:


> Oh no, it's fine, no offense taken  Sometimes I'm just a little quick to jump on opportunities to tackle erasure.


I certainly hope you're understanding of how we might not always be inclusive in every post about something so exceedingly rare as well.


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## batsociety

Cletus said:


> I certainly hope you're understanding of how we might not always be inclusive in every post about something so exceedingly rare as well.


Of course, especially in my case. I usually wouldn't even call someone out on a forum (unless it was specifically a feminist/gender/whatever forum or thread) over something like intheory's comment. I just read it too much like "your reproductive set-up is crucial to/determines your gender" and it rubbed me the wrong way.

But anyway, all this junk is off topic.


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## WandaJ

EnigmaGirl said:


> I
> 
> I find it interesting that the assumption is that working women simply don't take care of kids and home everyday. We do...we simply do it while contributing to the financial obligations of the family.
> 
> .


I don't think she was making this kind of assumption. When you are SAHM your life revolves around it, and that might be numbing to some of us. When you are working mother, you still have your own life, besides all that crap. More work too, but it's a trade off. 
I've been both, and I do prefer to be working mother. For me it was too boring, to depressing. I had pefect partnership before kids in my marriage, and now all of the sudden all the most boring, least rewarding house chores were on me. I hated it.


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## Anon Pink

batsociety said:


> I'm intersex, externally male but with a functional female reproductive system. Folk like me are usually infertile, but I'm one of the "lucky" ones who isn't. To top it off I have a congenital rectovaginal fistula (apologies to squeamish folk, this means a tear/opening in the rectovaginal septum) which may be related to my condition or completely unrelated. It's a perfect storm kind of situation; there are a number of things that are "wrong" with me that would not usually coincide, but again, I'm "lucky". It's kind of hard to explain in short and without extensive diagrams but that's the brunt of it.


Oh wow, thank you so much for answering. This is fascinating to me. And now I have many many more questions!

This stuff is SOOOO complicated!

You identify as a male though your secondary sex characteristics function as female. So that would make you neurologically trans, right? Because if you identified as a male while your ovaries remained undeveloped or non functioning, you would be straight up intersexed. Neurologically male with functioning secondary sex characteristics to match the neurological identity. Do I understand that right? 

It is medical cases like yours that help researchers better understand sexual identity and how it is based in genetic expression.

Years ago the medical community would have surgically removed your penis and scrotum and raised you as a girl thinking sex assignment was the way to deal with ambiguous infant genitalia. Thank goodness that did not happen to you! At least I hope that didn't happen to you!

The rectovaginal fistula, wouldn't this be surgically closed? I can't imagine the infections you would have to deal with?

Apologies if my discussion above it out of line or too intrusive. I will not take offense if you ignore this post entirely.


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## Anon Pink

EnigmaGirl said:


> I still do this (except for the tutoring...I only occasionally help with homework) and I work full-time. I also take work home with me on Saturdays because I take a half-day on Fridays to volunteer at the school.
> 
> I make dinner every night although sometimes I use a crock pot or pressure cooker to make it easier. I clean...I run kids to lessons...I manage the schedules using a spreadsheet every day.
> 
> I find it interesting that the assumption is that working women simply don't take care of kids and home everyday. We do...we simply do it while contributing to the financial obligations of the family.
> 
> Granted, I only have 2 kids...I'm sure it would be a lot harder to do it all if I had more children or if I had children with challenges.



I tried to manage and balance all of this when I worked full time. I discovered I could not. While plenty of women were fantastic balancing all of this, I absolutely sucked at it. I thought I could develop the necessary skills. I discovered I was fooling myself! 

Many many working mothers are brilliant with balance and time management skills, not to mention an extra supply of energy. I saw them, I envied them, I tried to be like them. It did not take, and I made a choice to stay at home. Because I could handle thinking of myself as not contributing financially, I could not handle thinking of myself as a sub par mom and that is what I was when I worked full time.


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## batsociety

Anon Pink said:


> Oh wow, thank you so much for answering. This is fascinating to me. And now I have many many more questions!
> 
> This stuff is SOOOO complicated!
> 
> You identify as a male though your secondary sex characteristics function as female. So that would make you neurologically trans, right? Because if you identified as a male while your ovaries remained undeveloped or non functioning, you would be straight up intersexed. Neurologically male with functioning secondary sex characteristics to match the neurological identity. Do I understand that right?


Honestly, I've never really thought about it like that. But to an extent I suppose you're right? To be specific about my gender identity I pretty much only identify as male because it's what I'm used to. I was assigned male at birth, I was always been referred to as a "he", I've never felt any dysphoria or any deep ties to my gender, I don't really feel masculine or feminine. I suppose I'm agender or gender-neutral at the core, which at face value is pretty consistent with my condition.



> Years ago the medical community would have surgically removed your penis and scrotum and raised you as a girl thinking sex assignment was the way to deal with ambiguous infant genitalia. Thank goodness that did not happen to you! At least I hope that didn't happen to you!
> 
> The rectovaginal fistula, wouldn't this be surgically closed? I can't imagine the infections you would have to deal with?
> 
> Apologies if my discussion above it out of line or too intrusive. I will not take offense if you ignore this post entirely.


That might well have happened to me if I had ambiguous genitalia, but thankfully it's not. It's always been pretty obviously, and normally, male and I was assigned male at birth without issue. And surprisingly, I've never had any issues with the fistula. No one had any idea it was even there until I was 17. No one had any idea that I was intersex until I was 17, either (other than having fairly feminine features and somewhat of an hourglass figure, there were NO clues). That's when sh*t hit the fan. I got sick and my doctor was thinking along the lines of testicular cancer because my HCG levels were so high but I had no other signs, so she sent me off for an MRI and "Guess what! You're intersex! Also you're pregnant! With twins!!!" Back then, I would have preferred the cancer option.


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## Anon Pink

batsociety said:


> That's when sh*t hit the fan. I got sick and my doctor was thinking along the lines of testicular cancer because my HCG levels were so high but I had no other signs, so she sent me off for an MRI and "Guess what! You're intersex! Also you're pregnant! With twins!!!" Back then, I would have preferred the cancer option.




Holy Sh!t! 

Go in thinking you're male and might have testicular cancer and come out being pregnant with twins!!!!

Cannot imagine the shock.


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## batsociety

intheory said:


> But you must have known you had a vaginal opening. Since you had sex to get pregnant? Right? * Sorry*. I am exhibiting my ignorance. But I am truly a bit confused.
> 
> I am not so ignorant about recto-vaginal fistulas though. That can be corrected with surgery. I have worked in medical offices where patients have had to be referred to surgeons to have that done. I'm sure you know all this. But take care of yourself. Don't put it off thinking you have to live with it, or anything like that.


Nope. I got pregnant via anal sex and the fistula. There is no vaginal opening (unless you count the fistula _as_ a vaginal opening). It's too high up for my husband or myself to have found it... on our own.

Yes, I am aware that surgery is an option (although it's a little more complicated for me while I'm fertile). My plans for surgery have never gotten past the "oh, there's an idea" phase. I've always been too busy with the kids, or college, or work to really think about it. By this point my line of thought is more like, I've had this thing for 37 years without a single issue, I think I'll just leave it be until it starts being a problem. None of my doctors have even brought it up since my first daughter was born in '99.


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## Anon Pink

batsociety said:


> Nope. I got pregnant via anal sex and the fistula. There is no vaginal opening (unless you count the fistula _as_ a vaginal opening). It's too high up for my husband or myself to have found it... on our own.
> .


Before you could have conceived you had to have ovulated. When the eggs were not fertilized. You had to have bled out the unused uterine lining. So did that blood exit your body through your anus?

With no vagina, you had cesarean sections?

I apologize for my curiosity but I find this absolutely fascinating! Your doctor must have thought he won the lottery when you walked in.

Considering the sheer complexity of the human body and how it develops from a single cell to a sentient being... It's amazing it ever goes as predicted when millions and billions of things at any given point in time could get mixed up and cause unexpected results in development. From 2 cells to 4 to a billion... How does any cell know to morph into a finger nail, a hair follicle, spinal cord... Just fascinating!


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## Maricha75

Not necessarily, Anon. He could have gotten pregnant the first time before any menstruation at all. We usually think about it happening after menstruatijng, at least. But really, it can happen before getting the first period.


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## Anon Pink

Maricha75 said:


> Not necessarily, Anon. He could have gotten pregnant the first time before any menstruation at all. We usually think about it happening after menstruatijng, at least. But really, it can happen before getting the first period.


Obviously.

But it's unlikely his first ovulation was at age 17. However, BatSociety defies definition so anything is possible. And I mean that in a good way Batman.

My FtM nephew is just starting out. 6 months into his transition and we've noticed some things. It's one thing for a young woman to be mouthy, loud and obnoxious. But for a man...he risks getting a serious beat down. Also, now that he is a man, his lack of manners, (holding the door open for the person behind you) is rather glaring.

Fascinating!


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## Maricha75

Lol well, yea, I agree, very interesting subject, for sure! As for the late onset for ovulation/menses... still very possible. Unusual, but not impossible. Hence the range average being 9-17 (last I knew, at least). Both extremes are unusual, even unlikely... but not impossible.

Agree again... Fascinating.


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## EnigmaGirl

> You must be exhausted. Well, I would be. But I tip my hat to you.


My youngest is a teen so I can't say that that I'm exhausted. Definitely when the kids were little, it was more juggling but its completely doable. These days, my life is extremely enjoyable and I can retire anytime I want which is nice situation to be in.

I'm definitely not an anomaly, I socialize with women who have more kids than I do and demanding careers and seem to do fine and enjoy life.


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## Maricha75

I love being at home. I didn't set out to be a stay-at-home mom/homemaker. It wasn't my aspiration in life. But I am glad things worked out the way they did. I don't believe my job is harder than that of a parent who works outside the home... but I also don't consider it a vacation. There is ALWAYS something to do. Even if I have days when I feel bored out of my mind, I wouldn't change it for anything.


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## batsociety

Anon Pink said:


> Before you could have conceived you had to have ovulated. When the eggs were not fertilized. You had to have bled out the unused uterine lining. So did that blood exit your body through your anus?
> 
> With no vagina, you had cesarean sections?


At that point it hadn't happened. I had primary amenorrhea due to my hormones being all funky and I managed to conceive before I had a period. This is how lucky I am (did I mention that I managed to get pregnant the first _ever_ time we had penetrative sex, too? I must have broken a mirror or walked under a ladder or something). 

And yes. Natural birth is not an option for me at all (thank god).


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## Anon Pink

batsociety said:


> At that point it hadn't happened. I had primary amenorrhea due to my hormones being all funky and I managed to conceive before I had a period. This is how lucky I am (did I mention that I managed to get pregnant the first _ever_ time we had penetrative sex, too? I must have broken a mirror or walked under a ladder or something).
> 
> And yes. Natural birth is not an option for me at all (thank god).



Please tell me you had to go through labor! Finally! A man who knows what labor is like, even if you got the skip the really horrendous part.

So...here you are 17, pregnant young man with working female parts...who did your daddy beat up? You or your boyfriend? Did your parents know you were gay at that point? Damn..triple surprise eh? "You think your upset your son didn't make the team? Lemme tell you about MY day!"


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## batsociety

Anon Pink said:


> Please tell me you had to go through labor! Finally! A man who knows what labor is like, even if you got the skip the really horrendous part.
> 
> So...here you are 17, pregnant young man with working female parts...who did your daddy beat up? You or your boyfriend? Did your parents know you were gay at that point? Damn..triple surprise eh? "You think your upset your son didn't make the team? Lemme tell you about MY day!"


Unfortunately I did! I wasn't really supposed to. The plan was for us to set a date for my c-section and then I'd just go and have the procedure, but then my sons decided they wanted to arrive two weeks early, in the middle of the night. That is the only time, though. My other two pregnancies have gone as planned. I hope my current one will, too.

My parents knew I was gay, it had never been a secret. They were weirdly calm about the whole thing. My mom just chewed me out for not being safe and my dad tried to threaten my husband with violence if he messed up, but he's the least threatening person in the world so it didn't really work out.


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## Anon Pink

batsociety said:


> Unfortunately I did! I wasn't really supposed to. The plan was for us to set a date for my c-section and then I'd just go and have the procedure, but then my sons decided they wanted to arrive two weeks early, in the middle of the night. That is the only time, though. My other two pregnancies have gone as planned. I hope my current one will, too.
> 
> My parents knew I was gay, it had never been a secret. They were weirdly calm about the whole thing. My mom just chewed me out for not being safe and my dad tried to threaten my husband with violence if he messed up, but he's the least threatening person in the world so it didn't really work out.


I'm so glad to hear your parents were supportive. But you were coming of age right during the AIDs scare, when HIV meant death. Of course your parents were rightfully terrified. If you'd have been my son I would have smacked the Sh!t out of both of you! 

How does that work for maternity clothes? Or do you just pretend to have a giant beer belly? What about breast feeding? How do the pregnancies affect your maleness? I take it you don't take any hormones to suppress female physical expressions? 

Thanks for answering my intrusive questions. It is helping me come to term with my niece/nephew. I miss the niece and though I welcome the nephew...it's so hard to adapt to such a huge change.


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## batsociety

Anon Pink said:


> I'm so glad to hear your parents were supportive. But you were coming of age right during the AIDs scare, when HIV meant death. Of course your parents were rightfully terrified. If you'd have been my son I would have smacked the Sh!t out of both of you!


And I would do the same to my kids, now! But at the time my husband and I _thought_ we were still being responsible. We were both complete and utter virgins when we met and STDs don't just spawn out of nowhere. And of course, pregnancy wasn't something we even considered at all.



> How does that work for maternity clothes? Or do you just pretend to have a giant beer belly? What about breast feeding? How do the pregnancies affect your maleness? I take it you don't take any hormones to suppress female physical expressions?


I tend to just wear those jeans with the elastic waistband and huge t-shirts. I'm kind of worried this time around because I'm not planning on stopping work until the very last minute, I'm going to have to start looking for masculine-business-y maternity clothes. No idea how that's going to work out.

But at this point, the people who need to know about my condition know. Anyone else can speculate whatever they want. I'm mainly mistaken for a woman in public, I'm pretty sure others just think I'm fat. I can live with that.

I can't breast feed. I tried in the beginning, I took medication to encourage it, but it just didn't work. I never really wanted to because it was a bit too much for me, but I still felt guilty about it for a while because all the books I read basically said "if you don't breastfeed your baby will die" or something similarly horrible (of course that was BS and they're all completely fine). 

The pregnancies don't really have any affect on my maleness. I experience all of the usual bodily changes but I don't have breasts and they've never tried to develop (thankfully, that would have made things slightly more awkward). And no, I don't take hormones. I'm happy enough with how things are going - I can live with the feminine fat distribution and the lack of facial/body hair (I hate it so this is extremely convenient). If things spontaneously start to change (which, with my body and what has happened it nothing is out of the question) I'll think about it.


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