# Looking on in Disbelief



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You guys ever fight over a misunderstanding? How about those times your spouse/partner escalated that fight over a simple misunderstanding into a deal breaker and announced that it was/is over?

Yet, if your spouse/partner was capable of conflict resolution in a healthy manner, they wouldn't be asking for things you can do to "make them happy"

And, if you still weren't battling codependence yourself, you certainly wouldn't be agreeing to things that will "make them happy" because when they are "not happy" (even though you are doing things to the best of your ability), there will be THE NEXT THING that will "make them happy"


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Oh dear. I've been afraid to even post myself. This has been happening to me, over and over, for the past year. 

I'm also reading Awareness by Anthony deMello to try and keep myself OUT of the drama.

Fear. And more fear. Theirs. 
Afraid they won't be able to do what is needed, unsure of their own abilities to do what is necessary.

I have no idea how to show someone to rip up the list and throw it away and just trust today. Instead, the old habits remain.

On both sides.
I'm sorry. I wish things were better.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I keep a countdown in my head. Not sure where zero is but it's there and when I reach it it's over. Counting down corrections and criticisms. One by one.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

we didn't fight
it wasn't even a contest, he could always win because he could be a cold, nasty bastard and I would always give in
but he made a hole in the fence and I jumped right through it


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

deejov said:


> Oh dear. I've been afraid to even post myself. This has been happening to me, over and over, for the past year.
> 
> I'm also reading Awareness by Anthony deMello to try and keep myself OUT of the drama.
> 
> ...


deej,

We've been kindred spirits the entire time.

You know this.

She's coming over - again - to talk.

Talk is cheap.

She wants "no strings attached"

I've been ready for "no strings attached" for a long time.

I'm not the one ending it because of strings.

Sheesh


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I should add.

Would anyone ever really be rational over a controlling "agreement".

Of course not.

If they were rational, they wouldn't insist on controlling agreements - and they wouldn't flaw pick them.

Will I ever get it?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

And... before you ask.

I DO love her.

Like I've never loved anything/anyone.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Sick and tired of being sick and tired yet?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnOver said:


> Sick and tired of being sick and tired yet?


Not quite

We still connect.

I'm sure you understand.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Not quite
> 
> We still connect.
> 
> *I'm sure you understand*.


No.

I do not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnOver said:


> No.
> 
> I do not.


I know you don't.


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I know you don't.


I kinda like it that way.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

Oh Conrad....this sounds exhausting.

So exhausting.

...and it makes me thankful that I am out of this type of cycle.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jpr said:


> Oh Conrad....this sounds exhausting.
> 
> So exhausting.
> 
> ...and it makes me thankful that I am out of this type of cycle.


jpr,

But, the chase is so invigorating.

Especially when you know the score.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't know, Conrad.

...it just seems likes a like of drama.

...and a score?...who wins when you are battling this way?

I don't know. I guess I am at a place in my life when I just appreciate peace. upfrontness. straightforward purity.

More power to you, Conrad. It seems like you know what you are doing....but, I can tell you that I have definitely had enough of these types of games.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

So what's she asking you to do to make her happy? What controlling things?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> So what's she asking you to do to make her happy? What controlling things?


She asked me to "give up" this forum.

I even got a new phone so it would not look like I was logging on.

She researched my browser history to see I was reading.

I am sorry, I actually care about the people here - and I was checking up on them.

She said that was a dealbreaker.

She can kiss my ass.

Is it not "controlling" enough to ask me not to participate and post?

Apparently not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes, I care.

Shoot me.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

Sorry, Conrad.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jpr said:


> Sorry, Conrad.


I care about you too.

Embrace DeMello and you'll be halfway home


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I won't be giving up TAM again

And, no dual accounts.

It's about control.

Yes, I get it.


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## Too Little Too Late? (Sep 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I won't be giving up TAM again
> 
> And, no dual accounts.
> 
> ...


Yes you do.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

Conrad said:


> I care about you too.
> 
> Embrace DeMello and you'll be halfway home


uhhhhh...no thanks. Not my style. 

I'm good. Thanks.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well if you care more about the people here than meeting her request... I guess she loses.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jpr said:


> uhhhhh...no thanks. Not my style.
> 
> I'm good. Thanks.


I'll stay with you until you do.

The "people are good" thing needs some work.

They're not.

Sasquatch surely isn't.

He has plenty of company.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

Sasquatch *wants* to be good. ...perhaps one day he will figure things out, and figure out what life is all about. This is hope---but, I will not be around to see it.

I wish him luck in his journey, but I won't be there to see him at the end of his finish line.

There is always hope, and those flickers of hope don't die....but, we also need to know "when to say when". .....I used to grab onto that hope and let it smother me and destroy me. I don't do that anymore....but, that also doesn't mean that I won't grab onto hope again. I just won't let it destroy me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jpr said:


> Sasquatch *wants* to be good. ...perhaps one day he will figure things out, and figure out what life is all about. This is hope---but, I will not be around to see it.
> 
> I wish him luck in his journey, but I won't be there to see him at the end of his finish line.
> 
> There is always hope, and those flickers of hope don't die....but, we also need to know "when to say when". .....I used to grab onto that hope and let it smother me and destroy me. I don't do that anymore....but, that also doesn't mean that I won't grab onto hope again. I just won't let it destroy me.


For your your internal "peace", you need an understanding of Sasquatch.

That's clear.

I will help you, if you let me.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

Conrad said:


> For your your internal "peace", you need an understanding of Sasquatch.
> 
> That's clear.
> 
> I will help you, if you let me.


I've thought about this a lot, actually, Conrad.

...and I am done trying to *understand* Sasquatch. I did that for the last 18 years. In some ways, I do think that I understand him....he actually told me a couple of weeks ago that I understand him better than anyone else. 

He is a lost soul. ...and when I see him about to jump off a cliff, I have been coming in and giving him little tidbits of advice--which he usually takes and appreciates.

But, I do this from a distance....and, while I don't want to see him completely self-distruct, I also don't want to be to one to "save his soul".

I don't really want to spend my time trying to understand him....analyze him. It is pointless, and maddening. 

I'm done. ...and that's that.

I've had enough.

Perhaps you'll understand if you ever reach this point.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

As long as you think people are "good", you need to understand Sasquatch.

He isn't "good"

Most people are not.


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## our vision shattered (May 25, 2012)

Missed you brother


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

our vision shattered said:


> Missed you brother


I have been watching you.

Don't think I haven't.


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## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm so sorry, Conrad. I really wanted things to work for you.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

I am sorry to hear thar Conrad. You know we all care about you too. Itbis good to have you back. I wish it was under different circumstances.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She asked me to "give up" this forum.
> 
> I even got a new phone so it would not look like I was logging on.
> 
> ...


Give up this forum? Why on earth why? I don't know ur story Conrad but somewhere I got the impression she was on here too? Or am I wrong? But this is a place of support....you offer so much here and we need you...I sure crap know I was bummed to just get to know u and read u were leaving...and glad to have seen u again! Give up the forum? Its a 'forum'...of 'support'...sigh....
Where are things as of now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Stella Moon said:


> Give up this forum? Why on earth why? I don't know ur story Conrad but somewhere I got the impression she was on here too? Or am I wrong? But this is a place of support....you offer so much here and we need you...I sure crap know I was bummed to just get to know u and read u were leaving...and glad to have seen u again! Give up the forum? Its a 'forum'...of 'support'...sigh....
> Where are things as of now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right.

Janie has access to this forum.

Even has an account on here.

The situation between them is exactly that.

Between them.

To each there own.

I suppose.


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

I think we all need a glass of red and some basil and cashew dip. 

welcome back mr c.

we appreciate you standing for yourself.


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## lostinspaces (Oct 22, 2012)

Noticed that you were back Conrad and went looking to see if there was a post as to why. I hate this for you man, but am glad that you are still working on it. Relationships do take work and only you can decide how much work you're willing to put into it. 

At some point you just don't get a return on the investment though. I'm realizing the same (with help from friends on here)


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Conrad said:


> She asked me to "give up" this forum.
> 
> I even got a new phone so it would not look like I was logging on.
> 
> ...


Conrad, is it an issue where she wants your attention more and this website takes away from it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> Conrad, is it an issue where she wants your attention more and this website takes away from it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not at all.

She has my full attention whenever she is available.

She thinks the people and advice I've received here are "bad for us" as a couple.

I can see why she would think it's been "bad for her"

Yet, I can tell she's never been more attracted to me.

And, there's an easy way to measure that.

Yet, her cushy pedestal life is gone.

And, it isn't coming back - no matter what.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> Conrad, is it an issue where she wants your attention more and this website takes away from it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do know I feel kind of a brotherhood with you.

I remember how we disagreed strongly, but in a civil tone.

What I didn't realize is that BOTH of us were wrong. We were trying different methods to manipulate our partners into doing what we wanted them to do.

The solution was ALWAYS to get right with ourselves, and the rest takes care of itself.

People simply will do that which they wish to do.

And, what they don't wish to do, they won't do.

We make it so complicated.


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## lostinspaces (Oct 22, 2012)

Oh, I totally believe you can influence them though. My stbxw sent an email the other day that was purely social (even sending a link to a joke I used to tease her about), if I wanted to win her back I would have replied with the standard joke and I'm sure the convo would have continued from there. I instead chose to continue the NC. right decision? who knows?

Point is there are things you can do to influence what they do ... The question is "why would you"? If you win by coercion you'll just be in the same position in the future I believe.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

lostinspaces said:


> Oh, I totally believe you can influence them though. My stbxw sent an email the other day that was purely social (even sending a link to a joke I used to tease her about), if I wanted to win her back I would have replied with the standard joke and I'm sure the convo would have continued from there. I instead chose to continue the NC. right decision? who knows?
> 
> Point is there are things you can do to influence what they do ... The question is "why would you"? If you win by coercion you'll just be in the same position in the future I believe.


Yet, it's all about working on you - and self regulating your neediness.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yet, it's all about working on you - and self regulating your neediness.


Agreed. Self regulation is key. It is also very hard. But in the end, it is worth it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Agreed. Self regulation is key. It is also very hard. But in the end, it is worth it.


It is so completely unattractive.

And, since about 80% of life occurs in the subconscious, you have to manage stuff like that.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> What I didn't realize is that BOTH of us were wrong. We were trying different methods to manipulate our partners into doing what we wanted them to do.
> 
> The solution was ALWAYS to get right with ourselves, and the rest takes care of itself.


And if we could get this point across to so many, there would be a lot more happier, satisfied people in this world.

Good to hear from you Conrad.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

Conrad said:


> You do know I feel kind of a brotherhood with you.
> 
> I remember how we disagreed strongly, but in a civil tone.
> 
> ...


I know, man. We agreed to disagree quite a bit in the past. Full circle......it's nice to finally be a healthy version of me, and I can tell you have gotten to a real good place for you. I like it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Dedicated2Her said:


> I know, man. We agreed to disagree quite a bit in the past. Full circle......it's nice to finally be a healthy version of me, and I can tell you have gotten to a real good place for you. I like it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still have my moments


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I still have my moments


How'd that talk go?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnOver said:


> How'd that talk go?


Well, the objective is cool, firm dispassionate.

The result?

Heated

Volatile

Passionate

Like I said, I have my moments.

Another round @2pm today.

Apparently, me saying I loaned my car to my daughter wasn't enough to indicate I expected face-to-face.

She had more important matters to attend to.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Everytime I lose my temper I "feel" like I lose 2000 feet that I gained. Seriously. 

I have to share something with you, Conrad. It might seem "evil" and game playing to others, but it's what works for me and my situation.

Dis-engaging in a manner that your erractic spouse understands. You'd have to know what her trigger is. 

Hard to explain in a short space, but I'll try.

You know, in your mind, what defines a relationship for you. Your list of what is required. You HAVE to be willing to stick up for it. 

I'm NOT talking about whether or not she wants you on this forum.
(this site could shut down tomorrow, you could find another one) 

I'm talking about NSA arrangements, serious things that would break trust and the very foundation. Things from the love busters list. 

Breaches? You don't get mad. You get smart. You realise that actions speak louder than words. Your partner is telling you that they don't want a relationship. So you don't give them one. 

You read Awareness, and you learn how to disengage from the fuzziness. Does it even freakin matter to you if she loves you back? It shouldn't. It matters whether you are being TRUE to your life plan. It matters if you love HER, most definately. Feel free to do that. Give and show her love. But NOT in the context of a relationship if she isn't willing to be a partner. 

You can be nice. You can do nice things for her. Because that's just what a caring person would do. But you don't initiate sex with her, or do things that equate to an emotional bond between the two of you. You don't participate in the arguements. It is what it is. You are what you are, because you have boundaries.

Sure, she loves you. I'm sure immensely doesn't even describe it. But maybe not as much as she likes the game. It takes one tenth of the energy to sit back and re-direct the game as it does to cause it (like she does). Herd the cows.


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## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Not quite
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do. Its that connection that keeps me strong in my separation. Sorry you hit another bump in the road.



Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You guys ever fight over a misunderstanding? How about those times your spouse/partner escalated that fight over a simple misunderstanding into a deal breaker and announced that it was/is over?


I know this feeling way more than I'd like to! The histrionics and drama are so frustrating. I imagine they must feel self-defeating for the person doing the escalating, too. I'm sorry that you're having to go through that!



Conrad said:


> Yet, if your spouse/partner was capable of conflict resolution in a healthy manner, they wouldn't be asking for things you can do to "make them happy"


If only doing things to make the other person happy could solve a problem! That's gotta be unpleasant. I suspect that conflict resolution is somehow tied to emotional logic and love languages, too. Have you read the Languages of Apology stuff? I don't know how helpful it would be in solving real deep conflict, but I found the ideas a little comforting, as if eventually one can learn how to communicate through conflict if only the right framework was available.



Conrad said:


> And, if you still weren't battling codependence yourself, you certainly wouldn't be agreeing to things that will "make them happy" because when they are "not happy" (even though you are doing things to the best of your ability), there will be THE NEXT THING that will "make them happy"


Oh, this is so tough. It's like a downward spiral and it's so easy to get caught in it because...making those we care about happy kinda does feel good for ourselves, too, and so we don't see the harm as we are slipping.

I'm sorry to hear that the conflict resolution isn't going more smoothly. Hoping you have things to keep your spirits up!


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She asked me to "give up" this forum.
> ...
> She said that was a dealbreaker.


Is she willing to talk about why this is a dealbreaker for her? I understand that wanting to work things out between the two of you without any third party involvement makes sense, but, at the same time, things done entirely in isolation can tempt people back into bad habits that brought them the trouble in the first place. Is there some concern that one or both of you are being swayed to the opinions of others that you wouldn't normally hold?

Did you call her on the escalating and ask her to talk about why this was a deal-breaker, why she felt that this was something on which she had to make a stand, why she felt so strongly about this? 

You mention that there's an element of control here, too. Does she understand that her behavior is coming across as controlling to you? I don't think that we can push people into giving us what we want because ultimately neither person will be satisfied. Controlling tactics are very hard habits to break, I think.



EleGirl said:


> Well if you care more about the people here than meeting her request... I guess she loses.


Do you think the issue is really about who he cares more about? Or, is this more about negotiating what is and isn't up for debate. It sounds more like Conrad is defending is position and that it is one that doesn't damage their relationship. If he's trying to break the habit of people-pleasing behavior, then, making a stand about something small might still matter to their recovery as well as his on his own. I doubt very much that he would care *more* about a forum than his partner...is it that she needs to see that she is valuable enough to him that he would make this sacrifice for her? Is it some kind of a test? I'm not challenging you, EleGirl, just wondering if there's another way of thinking about this issue. I do think that maybe if it's a deal breaker for Mrs Conrad, then perhaps she is interpreting it this way, that it somehow means he loves her less than a forum. I wonder if this could be qualified a bit more, like...is there something she feels you're giving to this avenue that you aren't giving to her? Is she feeling deprived about something specific that his forum use is representing?



Frostflower said:


> I'm so sorry, Conrad. I really wanted things to work for you.


Agreed. I'm sorry you guys are running into some potholes and hope things get better for you both!



Conrad said:


> She has my full attention whenever she is available.
> 
> She thinks the people and advice I've received here are "bad for us" as a couple.
> 
> ...


Oh, this makes sense. In many ways, the directions you're taking as a result of reflections here are making you less of what she wants you to be, a little. Can you guys try talking about the distinction between "bad for you both as a couple" and "bad for her"? I wonder if the issue of spending time on TAM is just standing in for the issue of directions that each of you would like the relationship to take....is that something you both can talk about? Is she feeling threatened by your connection to advice or conversations on the forum? Control is difficult to give up, whether one has it by choice or not.

I put my h on a pedestal for a long, long time and forgave him a lot of bad just because I love him and this gave him a lot of control; I don't think he liked being on a pedestal, but he likes having been knocked off far far less and he dislikes the lack of control enough to bring drama to fill in the control void. No one likes to let go of privilege, even if they understand the price of that privilege is being paid by someone else.

Tough things to talk about, I imagine, all of the issues that are now coming up to the surface. I wish you both strength and courage!


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## 06Daddio08 (Jul 26, 2012)

How are things Conrad?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

My STBXW would start disputes or fights over minute things, i. e., inadvertantly placing something in the dishwasher that she didn't want in there; an unexplained $5- charge on a credit card, household chores~ either by not doing them, or by doing them without her approval, simply to get the pump primed.

In retrospect, I feel that she greatly escalated all of this from a purely strategic standpoint as it was obviously going on during her dual affairs; and this was primarily because she had already effectively disconnected herself from me emotionally and the resulting mini-arguments that she started only served to further widen the chasm between us.

And theoretically, that's something that she greatly wanted, I might add!


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Strategic rift-making, instead of honest conversation is horrible.


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

Yoohooo? Mr C....we are wondering if you are ok?

So, are you ok?


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

hi miss stella want to hijack mr c's thread seeing he is having a nap and all?


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> My STBXW would start disputes or fights over minute things, i. e., inadvertantly placing something in the dishwasher that she didn't want in there; an unexplained $5- charge on a credit card, household chores~ either by not doing them, or by doing them without her approval, simply to get the pump primed.
> 
> In retrospect, I feel that she greatly escalated all of this from a purely strategic standpoint as it was obviously going on during her dual affairs; and this was primarily because she had already effectively disconnected herself from me emotionally and the resulting mini-arguments that she started only served to further widen the chasm between us.
> 
> And theoretically, that's something that she greatly wanted, I might add!


'Control' Famous quote from my soon to be XW:

"if you don't (fill in blank), we are through." Then I would ask, "How can you walk out of a relationship so easily." Her reply, "That's just the way I am, It's all about me."

She even used her quote when she said if I didn't marry her she we were through. NPD/BPD all the way baby. 

My uncontrolled codependance got the best of me everytime. She loved picking fights.. she told me she 'needs' the drama in her life. 

I wish I could turn back 3 yrs and have taken another road.


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## Stella Moon (Nov 22, 2012)

oncehisangel said:


> hi miss stella want to hijack mr c's thread seeing he is having a nap and all?


*he he he he....


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Yes, it's an old thread ....just wondering how Conrad is, if he happens to see this.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I am sure he's watching over all of us


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