# Violating Marriage Boundary?



## as34ns9 (Aug 21, 2016)

Good evening everyone. I've been a long time lurker and now, unfortunately, find myself in need of advice.

A little background information will help set the details in order. My wife and I were high school sweethearts and were married a couple of years after graduation. We've been married now for almost eleven years. We have three children together, all under the age of six. I would say - and I believe she agrees - we've had an excellent marriage. Sure, like all couples, there have been peaks and valleys but the overwhelmingly majority of our relationship has been good at worst.

A few weeks back we were rocked by the news of our best friends dealing with infidelity. I won't get into the details of that situation but, suffice it to say, it was a wake-up call for us to start focusing more on our marriage, each other, and less on our children and day-to-day lives. Over the past few weeks are relationship is close to the best it has ever been. It's like we're dating in high school again. It's great. One aspect of the changes was to re-open the lines of communication. That's not to say that communication was bad per se, it just was not good. We had grown comfortable in our relationship; we loved each other but were not "in love" so to speak. It was during one of our talks that my wife admitted something to me that I would have never guessed and I have to admit I'm struggling with it.

Around five years ago we had went through a really rough time. My wife lost a couple of relatives to death and we suffered through a miscarriage of our first child. The latter was admittedly the most devastating to both us as we had been struggling with infertility for a few years and had finally been blessed with a baby on the way. I'm sure many of you have been there before so you can relate to the soul-crushing loss it is for that to happen; especially when you mix in fertility struggles.

My wife and I were both emotionally and spiritually fractured. She did the natural thing that many women do and blamed herself. I did the best I could to support her and even suppressed my own emotions so that I could appear strong for her on the surface. Inside I was dying and went through some significant emotional issues over the following months.

At some point during our grieving, my wife made contact with a former love interest. They dated for a few months a while before we even met. She said they might have even loved each other. When I pressed her on the issue she said she wanted closure on that relationship and wanted to verify there were no residual feelings for him. She had a few phone calls with him and we even visited him one evening after visiting my wife's extended family. She explained the purpose of the calls as catching up and that he had experienced the loss of a baby also. He was no stranger to the family and I had met him quite a few times before; he was always introduced as a "cousin" (which is a story in and of itself). I was completely in the dark on the purpose of the meeting and it appeared - to me - to be nothing more than a catch up. We weren't there more than hour or so.

My wife went on to say that she confirmed she had no residual feelings for him and went on to completely break-off contact. She deleted him from her Facebook friends list, removed him from her contacts, and - to the best of my knowledge - had little to no contact with him soon after that visit. She absolutely swears that there was never any physical contact between them before or after we were married. She also swears to me that there was no emotional affair or even a build-up when she reinitiated contact.

I have no reason to suspect she isn't being completely honest with me now. It was very difficult to admit and upset her tremendously. I truly think she is regretful and it will never happen again. We've taken some extra steps to remove as many avenues of temptation as possible. Our social media pages have been deleted, we've gone through and removed contacts in our phone that aren't absolutely critical, and - while not a recent change by any means - made sure that we each know one another's log in credentials.

I'm really struggling with this. 

On one hand, I fully take on the guilt of probably not being emotionally supportive for her during that time. I was emotionally compromised during that time as well but I'm sure there is more that I could have done to support her. It took several hours of discussion to finally convince her that she did not kill our baby. I take that on completely because I should have not let her shoulder that burden. I should have done better to recognize what she was feeling and carrying despite, by her own admission, her ability to hide things emotionally well.

On the other hand, I can't help but feel as if she violated out marriage boundary. I am neither ready nor willing to categorize it as infidelity or an affair but I do admit it seems very similar in nature to me. "Testing the waters" in my mind is a hair's breadth away from it. When I asked her what she would have done if she discovered that her feelings for him were still intact, she had no answer. I asked if she would have had an affair or divorced me and her response was "I don't know". Her rationalization is that she was so emotionally distraught and wrapped in self-loathing that she thinks she was sub-consciously trying to sabotage our relationship; she "didn't deserve the good things her in life". 

I'm not sure what to think. I go between feeling completely violated to taking on a bulk of the responsibility for not being supportive enough and everything in between. I know that some - if not many - of you have been through worse. Am I making this into something it isn't? I want to chalk it up to amazingly dump decisions on her part and my failure to be the husband I should have been during that time but I'm having a hard time reconciling the situation.

I would appreciate any advice or perspective you're willing to provide.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

She's probably lying

Tagging in @Kivlor re: "closure".

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Very few people know with any degree of certainty what they will do when faced with such a traumatic event. It is troubling that she would look outside the marriage for comfort. I would assume that there were unresolved feelings that she has been dealing with and this event was merely the catalyst that spurred her to action. She may have also been subconsciously trying to divert some of her anguish and guilt by blaming you. This may have also caused thoughts of her ex to resurface, thoughts of being with someone in "good times" as an escape from the horribleness of recent events. It is hard to say for sure from just one post.

In any event, I would not consider her actions at all reassuring and would suggest that you discuss it, thoroughly, until some reasonable answer is forthcoming and then deal with that issue as warranted. It may simply be the result of severe emotional trauma and her inability to deal with it, as in a distraction.

As for your lack of support, I would not condemn myself excessively as you were suffering the same trauma and you did not seek out some old girlfriend. Again, it may simply be that the event overloaded her ability to cope and she behaved irrationally. If she has given you no other cause for concern then I would, again, discuss it in depth and if that is unproductive then you should probably chalk it up to that and put that horrible time behind you and get on with your "good at worst" marriage. Good fortune to you.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Um, she did violate your marriage boundary.

Exes are the ultimate coward's way to cheat, you don't even have to put in any effort to meet someone. 

Do not take any responsibility for her cowardly decision to contact an ex, and tell her if she speaks to him again or you find out about any other inappropriate male contact she can gtfo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## as34ns9 (Aug 21, 2016)

My apologies if I didn't make this clear in the OP. This all took place around five years ago. She swears that nothing of the sort has ever take place since then and I have had no reason to think otherwise. I wouldn't have suspected that either had she not admitted it in the effort of being completely open and honest with me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think what some are saying is it's a red flag that she went to a man to vent rather than her mother, sister(s), female friends, etc. Yeah, he may have lost a child, but so did the woman he was with at the time. Why not talk with her? 

On top of that, it's quite a different experience for a man and a woman. After all, the woman is carrying a growing child inside her body. It's her body that rejected the child. That's got to be really tough to handle. It is impossible for a man to understand.

Women don't usually go to men to talk about their issues. They may include a man along with other women in a group, allowing him to voice his opinions, but they usually rally among themselves. 

I'm not saying she did something. I'm just listing some reasons it all seems odd. 

Best of luck to you. Seems like you are a kind husband. Keep working on communicating and making your marriage the best it can be.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

as34ns9 said:


> On the other hand, I can't help but feel as if she violated out marriage boundary. I am neither ready nor willing to categorize it as infidelity or an affair but I do admit it seems very similar in nature to me. "Testing the waters" in my mind is a hair's breadth away from it. When I asked her what she would have done if she discovered that her feelings for him were still intact, she had no answer. I asked if she would have had an affair or divorced me and her response was "I don't know". Her rationalization is that she was so emotionally distraught and wrapped in self-loathing that she thinks she was sub-consciously trying to sabotage our relationship; she "didn't deserve the good things her in life".
> 
> I'm not sure what to think. I go between feeling completely violated to taking on a bulk of the responsibility for not being supportive enough and everything in between. I know that some - if not many - of you have been through worse. Am I making this into something it isn't? I want to chalk it up to amazingly dump decisions on her part and my failure to be the husband I should have been during that time but I'm having a hard time reconciling the situation.
> 
> I would appreciate any advice or perspective you're willing to provide.



_*SHE*_ made the decision to go looking for him
_*SHE*_ made the decision to call him
_*SHE*_ made the decision to go visit him
_*SHE*_ made the decision to act and behave inappropriately.

Here's the problem with your situation.

Did _*SHE*_do anything? 
Yes she did:
1) Sought out old flame
2) started talking to old flame
3) Visited old flame (not sure if it was in secrecy)

Most definitely there was some emotional energy given to him. Unknown if this was EA (although it sounds like it was) 

Meeting him - was there physical relations? That is something where you will probably never get a satisfactory answer. However, let's be real. You're just meeting up with him to determine if you still have feeling? Come on, you were born, you just weren't born yesterday.

The fact that she she had no answer or "didn't know" about divorce or having an affairs is a major issue.

The long and short, she knows, but she won't ever tell you

The fact that this was hidden makes it a lie. A lie she has kept for a long time.

I see boundary violation after boundary violation.

Im not sure how you couldn't call this some type of affair


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

You have every right to feel the way you do. She fessed up out of guilt, but you'll never know the true depth of her feelings or intentions towards this man, or if she truly did cut off all contact. She kept that from you for 5 years.If she lied for that long, odds are good you haven't got the whole story yet, and very well may never. Lies of omission are as bad or worse than blatant lies in the sense that you have no opportunity to determine the validity of the statement to begin with. Also quit beating yourself up about how much support you gave her. Sounds like to me you did all you could have done while emotionally doing yourself harm to appear strong. You shouldn't blame yourself AT ALL.
What's the story behind the "cousin" label? That sounds sketchy as hell to me.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't blame you for feeling violated OP - you have been, at the very least your wife broke your trust.

Regardless of what you could/should have done to better support her through the loss of your baby, that doesn't excuse what she did. She needs to own HER CHOICE to turn outside the marriage. And while we're on the subject - I'm sure there are things that SHE could have done to better support you during that time as well. You both suffered a loss, not just her, yet you didn't turn outside your marriage.

I lost two beautiful baby boys a few years back, twins. It was an incredibly traumatic, harrowing, life changing experience for me. It was also that for their father - in a different way to mine perhaps, but nonetheless, he suffered too, terribly.

You need to explain to your wife just how violated and gutted you are by this. That you need her to "get it"...how much she's hurt you, and that she needs to earn your trust again.


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

I agree with the others have a heart to heart talk with your wife, this happened 5 years ago and still tears you up inside. 

Hopefully she give you honest answers, and listens to your side of things.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You need counselling. Individually and as a couple.

You can work through the traumatic loss of your baby and what your wife did or nearly did.


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## as34ns9 (Aug 21, 2016)

First, thank you all for support and input. I took the advice that was suggested and my wife and I had a direct conversation this evening about this situation. After being able to discuss the situation with her calmly and collected I think our underlying issue is communication. Last night we were emotional and the situation was raw. I was not listening and she was not explaining as we should have. 

The key details that were missed last night make a difference. Additionally, here are some of the clarifications.

- She did not contact him initially; he randomly sent her a message on Facebook. We verified this by looking at her downloaded Facebook data as we were able to pull up the exact message. She explained that she felt completely alone dealing with our loss. When he contacted her, she thought he might be able to say something to help her cope with the situation as he had been through it as well.

- She did not meet him secretly. He, along with her extended family, live several hours away. I was with her the entire time of our visit and can confirm that it was neither possible for him nor her to be physically alone with one another. During our visit, it became abundantly clear that the only thing he was interested in was telling us his sob story so that we would feel inclined to help him monetarily. Everything from "if I could just buy a car" to "if I could just make a downpayment" to "if I just had a couple of thousand dollars" was dropped at some point. It was at that point that she stopped making any effort to contact him.

- She did not continue talking to him in an effort to "test the waters". This phrase was not used by her but rather supplied by me based on my misinterpretation from last night. It was only after retrospectively considering the situation a few months later that she began questioning why she did not break off the communication sooner. She said she picked up on him pumping us for money in their conversations - several short phone calls and a few Facebook messages (which have been recovered and reviewed) - but she was lost and looking for a way out. She was so desperate for help she overlooked it. The more she dwelt on the situation she began wondering and ultimately convinced herself that it was also an attempt at some level for closure relating their relationship; assessing whether anything residual remained. There was nothing absolutely nothing there and she took every effort to remove him completely from her life; e.g., de-friend and block on Facebook, remove contact information, and block communications. 

- This has not been an issue plaguing us for years. I just found out about it last night. We have been making a conscientious effort over the past few weeks to reinvest in our relationship. Part of that involves ensuring all lines of dialogue are open between the two of us and that we are completely open and honest with one another. This has involved a lot of extremely late night conversations and this bubbled to the top last night. We have dealt with the loss of the child as best as anyone can over the years and it is not nearly as raw as it once was.


After hashing everything out, I'm convinced - and hopefully not naive - that this boils down to a couple of things.

First, we both absolutely failed at communicating with one another. She did not adequately communicate with me how utterly lost she was and I was not as supportive as I should have been. I put on a facade of being "ok" or at least getting by for her and this ultimately turned her away. We both retreated into our own minds for a while as well which exacerbated the situation. We both failed to read one another correctly and I let her down by not saving her when she needed it the most.

Second, she made an amazingly bad decision by allowing the communication to happen and temporarily continue. When she realized that mistake she shut it down completely and permanently. She has had no further communication with him in over five years and swears she has absolutely no desire to ever speak with him again.

I would have never even suspected this had she not confessed it. I do feel better about the situation knowing that she did not pre-meditatively try to search for residual feelings. That was a construct of my understanding and she only came to that conclusion after some serious self-evaluation. I've never had any reason to doubt her before now but she appears to be completely honest with me about it now. Perhaps I'm being naive but I want to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Thoughts?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I think it is good she confessed it. 

The only thing that really bothers me, and would keep me up at night, would be this:

What if after meeting him, she actually did still have feelings for him? 

It was a significant enough question for her to have a budding emotional affair, so she clearly was doing the mental gymnastics in envisioning him being a potential replacement for you. 

Her story sounds plausible. Her reasoning does not. That is what you need to get to the bottom of, brother.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

She put on her best dress and the nice lipstick that she "saves" for special occasions. She had on that nervous pensive smile, the one that she uses to hide her fears.

She had you dress nicely too, plus the close shave, newly cut hair.

She hinted at where you were going but no whys. She was going to meet up with the Old Flame. She wanted to see if the fire for him was still warm.

You knew her heart grieved, as did yours. But your gut knew something was a-Mrs. 

For reasons close to your heart you walked those long steps to an uncertain future. Willingly.

Your heart and mind were racing....will the upcoming curve send our marriage off the cliff? 

Entering the room, she embraced the Old Flame, if only for a second.

She now had the two of you in one room. One Paramour knew the score and he was Fire. You were in the dark [place]. You two were being judged....eyed over by your wife.

She knew the winner. She had decided that before entering that room. You were there for moral support. She was in love with him and could not break it off without your shadow superimposing hers. 

He was married, She was married....She lost her baby...Old-Flame's wife lost hers........................... {Same genes at play? A mean thing to say, sorry}

The Moral High Ground won the day. This was a calculated decision on her part.

She grieved the loss of her baby...she grieved the loss of her Forever Love. Her strong feelings for him made her feel guilty. That is why she said that she did not deserve your love. Terribly conflicted was she.

"Cousin Flame" is tattooed on her heart. 

Old Flame was part of your marriage...right up to Saturn's Square, the seven year mark... now a non-itchy scar. Saturn's discarded, were an Infant and a Cad..two jettisoned souls...one innocent....one A-Flame no more.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

as34ns9 said:


> During our visit, it became abundantly clear that the only thing he was interested in was telling us his sob story so that we would feel inclined to help him monetarily. Everything from "if I could just buy a car" to "if I could just make a downpayment" to "if I just had a couple of thousand dollars" was dropped at some point. It was at that point that she stopped making any effort to contact him.


Here's the good news. Even if she was remotely interested in this cat initially, she discovered quickly that he's a looser and she is superior to him. Women are generally not attracted to guys they are superior to. Hence, the reason she lost interest and cut off contact when she found out he was panhandling for money.
The bad news is her wishy washy answer, "I don't know" when asked if she'd pushed the envelope if she did still have feelings. My conclusion is you might have a problem if this cat were a U.S. Senator, CEO, or the like.
You seem to be overselling on what a wonderful marriage you have. Seems if it were that great her answer to your question would have been, "not just no but hell no". Makes me wonder if she feels the same or are we just hearing your version.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I agree, what she did was wrong. It should never have happened.

If I understand you right OP, she told you about this voluntarily, correct? Otherwise you would never have known it had happened. I give her credit for that. I'm glad she came clean, it was the right thing to do.

When my father suddenly died in front of me while he was still young, I did things in the year after that I shouldn't have done. Grief and anguish let me allow things to happen in my life that would never have happened if I hadn't went through a terrible loss. Still didn't make it right, but it was a real factor.

Losing and child? I can't even imagine. Everyone reacts so differently to tragedy. Some people are so numb, they do stupid things almost to test and see that they still can feel, yet others harbor so much guilt because of the loss, that they self sabotage. Personally, in hindsight, I did both.

I'm in the camp that she wasn't having an affair, emotional or otherwise...but that she made some really bad choices and she regrets it. When she says she doesn't know what would have happened if she would have had feelings for him, perhaps instead of us all thinking that is a horrifying answer, maybe the "I don't know" is the truth? Since she didn't have those feelings, she simply doesn't know what would have happened if she had? Maybe she was trying to give you full disclosure, and that was her honest answer.

I understand that I am saying the polar opposite of the other posters here, whom I really do normally agree with (and I respect them too). I could very well be completely wrong, but I thought I should at least reply.

I am sorry for your loss and your challenge to deal with this right now. I wish you the best.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Hello OP, 

Sorry to hear about the miscarriage - having gone through this with my wife, I can confirm that it is truly heartbreaking.

With regards to your wife, here are my thoughts:




The guy was/is a financial predator so you are best rid of him.


While I do not think your wife cheated, it is concerning that she would speak to a man about her feelings - while you can chalk this up to the miscarriage, it is worth her exploring why she would do this (as in being OK with going to another man when in need of emotional support). IC might help.


All her actions (as has been said already) were deliberate and down to her i.e. not a mistake - a deliberate choice of action.


The real bad thing about all this is the reason for reaching out - *"to see if there were residual feelings" !!!!!!* Why on earth would she decide to do that? Seeking out emotional support is one thing but this is completely different!!!! A big red flag no doubt and definitely one that needs to be resolved asap.


However, IMO, the worst thing is her reply to beings asked about had there been residual feelings what would she have done. When asked about leaving you and then carrying on with him or having an affair behind your back, *SHE SAID I DON'T KNOW!!!! WTF!!!!! * This is the worst blow I would say because it means that she entertained this right at the start. This definitely needs looking into and help from counsellors to get down to what is bothering her about your relationship that she would even entertain such actions - you see, you think that your relationship is good (apart from some communication problems which you are addressing) but clearly she doesn't!!! And it is worth remembering that (as others have said) the only reason she didn't continue with her feelings (and yes she had feelings for him, else she would not have pursued this) is because he came across as a real loser. Had he been successful, who knows what would have happened. I cannot help but think that "I don't know" is not the truth which is probably more like "I might have or I would have explored the possibility further in every way to make up my mind".



If this is still festering away in some of deep, dark recesses of her mind, it is a time bomb.

So in summary, while it is understandable for her to have been upset and seek out emotional support, the three issues as far as I can see are:




Seeking support from another man.


Investigating a possible relationship with another man outside of her marriage.


Not knowing what she would have done if there was still a spark there.


Be careful and don't ignore these.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

manfromlamancha said:


> However, IMO, the worst thing is her reply to beings asked about had there been residual feelings what would she have done. When asked about leaving you and then carrying on with him or having an affair behind your back, *SHE SAID I DON'T KNOW!!!! WTF!!!!! * This is the worst blow I would say because it means that she entertained this right at the start. This definitely needs looking into and help from counsellors to get down to what is bothering her about your relationship that she would even entertain such actions - you see, you think that your relationship is good (apart from some communication problems which you are addressing) but clearly she doesn't!!! And it is worth remembering that (as others have said) the only reason she didn't continue with her feelings (and yes she had feelings for him, else she would not have pursued this) is because he came across as a real loser. Had he been successful, who knows what would have happened. I cannot help but think that "I don't know" is not the truth which is probably more like "I might have or I would have explored the possibility further in every way to make up my mind".


I actually think her answer is the best part.

Your wife is acknowledging a weakness. She had {or may have had} feelings that often arise in many persons whenever they see or speak to someone they've previously had a relationship with. Those feelings were or would have been terrible BUT SHE SHARED THEM WITH YOU ANYWAY.

Adultery involves much more than just inappropriate feelings. Most people go much further before they even recognize such things {the first steps towards infidelity} are even wrong. 

She was at a vulnerable time in her life. I'm not saying cut her a break or that the whole thing doesn't sound a bit fishy {but we are a very suspicious group so our bias and experience has us fearful for you and presuming there's a lot more to this story} but I think she's being honest with you here and the fact she could share this with you is a testament to your relationship and NOT a knock on your relationship. You two are opening up communications and she's sharing some very scary intimate thoughts she's had long ago. That's good, not bad.

Unless there is more to this story {which you won't discover by punishing/jackhammering her for what she's already said}, I think you're good. Secrets kill marriages much more than errors in judgment and some poor choices.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Spicy said:


> If I understand you right OP, she told you about this voluntarily, correct? Otherwise you would never have known it had happened. I give her credit for that. I'm glad she came clean, it was the right thing to do.
> 
> When she says she doesn't know what would have happened if she would have had feelings for him, perhaps instead of us all thinking that is a horrifying answer, maybe the "I don't know" is the truth? Since she didn't have those feelings, she simply doesn't know what would have happened if she had? Maybe she was trying to give you full disclosure, and that was her honest answer.


There is a lot of validity to this post...OP I am not condoning what your wife did in any way, please understand that. I completely get how hurt and shaken you are by what she's told you, and I understand why that is - I would be too.

The thing is though, at the time that this happened, your wife was out of her mind with grief. Desperate to find a distraction from the pain. She wasn't in her right mind. She was vulnerable and a predator took advantage of that.

Again - that in NO WAY minimises your grief or your suffering at that time. 

As for whether she would have had an affair had a spark been there, and her answer of "I don't know", I agree with Spicy - she simply may not know, and that was her honest, truthful answer to you. If you asked her what she would do now, if her answer was "I don't know" that would be a HUGE red flag, but at the time she wasn't thinking clearly.

How do you feel after your talk with her? Do you feel that she really "gets it", really understands how this has shaken you and why? If the answer is yes, then I really hope that the two of you can move forward together...I hope that she's learned a valuable lesson from that tragic time, but I am truly sorry that you have to pay the price for her to learn that lesson x


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

as34ns9 said:


> ...Second, she made an amazingly bad decision by allowing the communication to happen and temporarily continue. When she realized that mistake she shut it down completely and permanently. She has had no further communication with him in over five years and swears she has absolutely no desire to ever speak with him again....


I would give her the benefit of the doubt.

This makes sense to me personally. I am not saying it is "ok" to be emotionally intimate with an ex, but I can see her not understanding the danger/risk in it at the time. She was hurt and vulnerable and not feeling close to you and an old friend magically appeared in her inbox. She confided in him, then saw he was taking things somewhere else and shut it down.

I would suggest that moving forward you come up with some ground rules for Opposite Sex interactions, and you are always open with each other with all passwords for phones, computers, email, etc. and check each other's stuff from time to time so this can't happen again.

And also learn how you can better meet her emotional needs. I can't imagine how painful that time must have been for both of you, and you were trying to be strong, but you also want to be the one she *wants *to turn to, and feels safe turning to, when she needs to share her feelings.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

VladDracul said:


> Here's the good news. Even if she was remotely interested in this cat initially, *she discovered quickly that he's a looser and she is superior to him. Women are generally not attracted to guys they are superior to. Hence, the reason she lost interest *and cut off contact when she found out he was panhandling for money.
> *The bad news is her wishy washy answer, "I don't know"* when asked if she'd pushed the envelope if she did still have feelings. My conclusion is you might have a problem if this cat were a U.S. Senator, CEO, or the like.
> You seem to be overselling on what a wonderful marriage you have. * Seems if it were that great her answer to your question would have been, "not just no but hell no". * Makes me wonder if she feels the same or are we just hearing your version.


Agree 100%. She saw that this guy wasn't really into her but fishing to scheme for money and most importantly was a step down compared to her husband and lost interest.

Her answer that she doesn't know if he would have been such a loser and would have poured on the charm to get into her pants instead her husband's wallet, things would have been different.

Sounds like she was looking for an emotional connection with another man. Very common. We have countless threads on TAM, LS, and SI where an affair started during an emotionally tough time.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I tend to go for scorching the cheater as there is no excuse but there are alot of things in this that suggests you move on:

1. She told you voluntarily - if she had really cheated, there is no way she would open that can of worms
2. you are in a good place now and are trying to be honest and real with each other
3. a woman after miscarriage has all the grief, raging hormones of a menopausal or post natal woman, it can mess with the head and emotions
4. she was seeking emotional support from you, you were not available, she sought elsewhere (not right at all but she probably was not thinking straight)
6 it will put you on notice, no-one is perfect and no marriage is immune to such events, hopefully this will help both of you to be watchful of your marriage and not take it for granted in the future


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm going to bat for the wife here. 

The OM represented a safe, warm place in her past. A past where her parents were alive and she had not lost a baby. When all that loss went down, and this guy reached out to her, she ran back to that warm safe place in her mind. He took advantage of her pain and tried to start an affair. Luckily she woke up to what was going on and stopped herself. OP, give her some credit for coming to you and telling you the truth. That, to me, tells me that she still respects you and your feelings. She did not try to hide what she did. Many women would have in her position. Yeah, it was fvcked up thing to do, but at least she didn't try to take the secret to her grave. I think she deserves some credit for that. Maybe I'm wrong but she doesn't fit the entire architecture of the usual wayward wife we see on TAM.

My take is I don't think she is in love with him anymore, and I don't think she is carrying a torch for HIM per se, but for the safe memories he represents. She craved what he represented. He was a fantasy, as most burgeoning affairs are. 

I think your best way forwards is for you and her to get into marriage counseling and figure out the disconnect. Maybe she harbors some anger or frustration towards you for the way you handled the death of your child. Maybe she felt you weren't supportive enough. Women have this unreasonable idea the husband is there to save her from everything and to make everything alright. And when the husband cannot (no husband can) some women get irrational and resentful. It is not fair but it happens, and I think that is what may have happened in your case. So when Mr Ex BF came along she was ripe for exploitation. You need to point that out to her so she will recognize what a scum sucking opportunist he really is. 

But get yourselves into heavy-duty counseling and get this resolved or it will hamstring your marriage.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

frusdil said:


> As for whether she would have had an affair had a spark been there, and her answer of "I don't know", I agree with Spicy - she simply may not know, and that was her honest, truthful answer to you. If you asked her what she would do now, if her answer was "I don't know" that would be a HUGE red flag, but at the time she wasn't thinking clearly.


By as34's own admission, there were pockets of things weren't quite a lovey dovey as he tried make it out to be. (for example, "We had grown comfortable in our relationship; we loved each other but were not "in love" so to speak.") 
He may as well accept the fact that his wife, according to his perception of their conversation, "wanted closure on that relationship and wanted to verify there were no residual feelings for him". In his mind that meant she may have been carrying an ember for this cat that was fanned by the losses. That's likely the way it went down. 
Whether we like it or not, parts of previous relationships stay with you and your spouse and the good times and wondering what might have been often float to the surface. You ain't going to find a person that's immune to this. In this chicks case, the tragedies exacerbated this happening.
Now if all this went down as depicted five years ago and she's been "clean and sober" since, its best to drop it and view it as a past bad cold that didn't turn into pneumonia. Moreover, if old as34 is completely honest, he's like the rest of us guys and thought about some past loves or likely the girl he could have bedded and didn't while saying to himself, "I wished I'd nailed her when I had the chance".


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think this problem is solvable. Separation or divorce is waaaay premature for now, unless she confesses there was more to this.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

I think something happened. If this guy meant nothing then she wouldn't have implemented such a hardcore no contact policy all of a sudden. I think she had an "oh sh*t, what am I doing?" moment, wised up, and buried everything related to her indiscretion. Just my opinion.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

as34ns9 said:


> First, thank you all for support and input. I took the advice that was suggested and my wife and I had a direct conversation this evening about this situation. After being able to discuss the situation with her calmly and collected I think our underlying issue is communication. Last night we were emotional and the situation was raw. I was not listening and she was not explaining as we should have.
> 
> The key details that were missed last night make a difference. Additionally, here are some of the clarifications.
> 
> ...


I think you should be thankful that you have a wife that is willing to reinvest in your relationship and put forth honesty. She made a bad error in judgement after facing a horrific event, people have done much worse. Communicate more and worry less as you let this bad experience become a distant memory and focus on your family now.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Dead on!



aine said:


> I tend to go for scorching the cheater as there is no excuse but there are alot of things in this that suggests you move on:
> 
> 1. She told you voluntarily - if she had really cheated, there is no way she would open that can of worms
> 2. you are in a good place now and are trying to be honest and real with each other
> ...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I go with the one's thinking your wife did the right thing by being honest. 

I was thinking about this and came up with a thought. Did you being so unemotional(stoic) with her after the miscarriage somehow make her think you didn't really care? I mean, it sounds a bit goofy, but if she was in such a terrible state of mind, you don't know what she was thinking. 

Maybe something to explore with a counselor?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

@as34ns9 I think there's a lot to be concerned about here. I went through something a little similar a year ago. 

For purposes of empathy, I think it's good that you're willing to take some ownership in this, and try to understand where she's coming from. It's also bad that you are doing so, because you are minimizing her agency in this.

You know your situation better than any of us, but what I'm getting out of this is: (tell me if I'm misunderstanding something)

A) W was emotionally distraught and sought out attention from an old flame 5 years ago (It's irrelevant that he "initiated" contact, the fact that she pursued it is seeking his attention)
B) W was not honest about her previous relationship with OM, and went so far as to call him a "cousin" to cover it up.
C) W kept this all a secret for 5 years, until she finally disclosed, apparently as part of your discussions with her about a friend's issues with infidelity.

I would be terribly concerned that she felt it was okay to have contact with him, and to go so far as to bring you into his home without disclosing the situation, so she could get a feel for how interested in him that she was. 

I would be trying to get to the bottom of the reason she felt the need to seek another man's attention / affection. I would definitely consider some counseling over this.

Yes, it's good she's being honest now. But it's tremendously concerning that she was okay with lying about this to you for 5 years. And I'd be all over that.

Make no mistake, she was testing the waters to decide whether or not to cheat on you with this guy. It sounds like you lucked out, because the OM was a complete loser.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

as34ns9 said:


> Thoughts?


After 11 years of marrying your high school sweetheart, I think that you have a very good wife. I guess she was around 25 years old when she had her miscarriage and then accepted the other guy's invitation to chat a few times. She was wrong at that time and shouldn't have done that, but in the grand scheme, it seems your marriage has been pretty free of stress. 

Your wife recently communicates with you about how both of you want to make your marriage stronger. I think that the majority of men and women could only dream of having such a partner. Keep the communication going and be thankful that you really have a good wife.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

@Kivlor

I could get passed that it wasn't mentioned for five years because she at least eventually came out and told him and it apparently was not a physical affair. However, I agree that referring to him in the beginning as the "cousin" is really strange.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Regarding the whole "closure" thing...

Your Wife needs "closure" with a boy she dated for a "couple months" before she dated you, when you've been married ~6 years? Let that thought sink in.

That just doesn't add up. And even if it did, what kind of trust can there be that she won't need "closure" with some other guy the next time she has some emotional crisis?

OP, I went through this whole closure thing, and it's bullshyte. I'd recommend you read my thread, but it's in the Private section. You might check it out once you've got enough posts.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I guess I would be a little more cautious than most on this thread. She went to someone she didn't know well for comfort, that's a real sign that she may be ripe for going further than she did next time. I think monitoring would be in order here, for awhile anyway. Who's to say she's had some other times that she's not telling you where she went to OM's for comfort. It's important that in some way you work toward going to each other for comfort this turns out to be a big problem. 

You probably aren't going to get much more information from her about this, so monitoring her might be the only way you'll get peace of mind about this.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Kivlor said:


> I would be terribly concerned that she felt it was okay to have contact with him, *and to go so far as to bring you into his home without disclosing the situation,* so she could get a feel for how interested in him that she was.


As bad as it seems, that's a damn sight better than her going alone to his place to find out. Besides, there's a reason some women may do this. I'll let some of the girls reveal why if they'll oblige.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

as34ns9 said:


> During our visit, it became abundantly clear that the only thing he was interested in was telling us his sob story so that we would feel inclined to help him monetarily. Everything from "if I could just buy a car" to "if I could just make a downpayment" to "if I just had a couple of thousand dollars" was dropped at some point. It was at that point that she stopped making any effort to contact him.





as34ns9 said:


> The more she dwelt on the situation she began wondering and ultimately convinced herself that it was also an attempt at some level for closure relating their relationship; assessing whether anything residual remained. There was nothing absolutely nothing there and she took every effort to remove him completely from her life; e.g., de-friend and block on Facebook, remove contact information, and block communications.


So only after she "assessing whether anything residual remained" with her ex, and it became "abundantly clear that the only thing he was interested in was telling us his sob story so that we would feel inclined to help him monetarily" did she cut off all contact with the ex. But what if her ex that she let you falsely believe was her cousin for so long (a lie by omission) was not such an obvious loser that was asking you for money? What would have instead happened between them in such a case? You will never know. This thought would trouble me greatly.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> As bad as it seems, that's a damn sight better than her going alone to his place to find out. Besides, *there's a reason some women may do this. I'll let some of the girls reveal why if they'll oblige*.


That's what he needs. I hope they do. Ladies, please??

I even asked nice and said, "please". You'll want to just come by and read this post. You won't believe it. >


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes, she violated a boundary. Now go get counseling if necessary, get your anger out and move on. This is not a ride you want to go on. Read enough posts and you'll be chasing your tail for the next year. With five years out, there is nothing to find or really discover. 

If you feel it is worked out move on.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, she violated a boundary. Now go get counseling if necessary, get your anger out and move on. This is not a ride you want to go on. Read enough posts and you'll be chasing your tail for the next year. With five years out, there is nothing to find or really discover.
> 
> If you feel it is worked out move on.


Working on acceptance, communication, forgiveness of yourself and her, and meeting each others needs while growing closer would seem like a worthwhile effort. It just isn't worth opening this can of worms. 

I think doing some things to "affair proof"(this really isn't possible, but it is what you want to use to do a search on literature) your marriage would be good, too. You can make it reasonably secure.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Assuming what you're saying is true, and an accurate record of what occurred.

First rule: She is today the same person as she was yesterday.

Did she break the boundary? yes. Now how you deal with that is up to you. Are you a forgiving person who cares for her, or are you more insecure and caught up on worries? Not a personal judgement here, it's what you honestly handle in yourself.

As for her:
That PA was around the 7year mark, which is always a troubling time of marriages. Almost all marriages suffer distances, habits, and humdrum at this point.

Also add in a miscarriage; Men don't understand just how troubling that is to a woman, or how unprepared for it modern living makes people. Historically few families would have all their children grow to adulthood, so child death was common and while sad it was an expectation, miscarriages even more so. Also men (and many women) don't comprehend how both socially and psychologically important fertility is to a womans' psyche, while a man may appreciate a lover who is barren it is a massive blow to someone who seeks social position, when such a thing can make them feel inadequate, incomplete,and broken - I put this to the idea that the Father fulfils a provider and guardian role and while he may upset or frightened of danger to his children, for the Mother they are still an extension of her. In some cases, the Father may have a child or children that are an extension of his ego and his measure of worth in the world so he would take such things more personally but there is still a degree of separation. Also we see it post-partum-depression, and also with Mothers who won't bond with their children, that it isn't the same as a male depression but is something far deeper as there is an inability to connect with themselves internally, a feeling of something missing or lost (which isn't helped by the social hype of how wonder it is supposed to be).

Her comments about needing closure etc. Lies, but lies she's telling herself after-the-fact. After a miscarriage, she would have been feeling very lost and rejected in her life, almost as if the horror was just a really bad dream. The ex- is emergence of the past before the miscarriage, before the 7yr crash and comes at a time when she is very vulnerable. He gave sympathy and good feelings from old and could exist in a moment where the bad things weren't there. He took advantage of the moment - which if you're dealing with people in such a state often takes a deliberate effort not to take advantage (and some men deliberately prey on others' in that state) which to her is acceptance of who she is, as the person she was then.
And that would like be when the guilt stepped in - or when he said something that reminded her of why they broke up. Either way that is likely a large factor in what caused her to pick her life back up with you, her real life.

Personally, I'd ask her if she felt guilty about not telling you for all this time. (not that she could, or else it would be one more bad thing on top of a bunch of others)

Depending on her answer and the type of person you honestly are, you can decide whether this is a mistake that someone you care about has made and help you both past it, or whether it is a betrayal of your confidence, trust, and openness that you can't live with without it eating away at you.

If she sees him again, if its in secret that's not on - but if openly ask to be taken along, not to make things bad or to keep an eye on her, but to tell him he's an a...hol. for treating a woman like that when she's clearly emotionally vulnerable. (ie defend your more alpha position and territory from ursurpers, but not abuse your partner who has made a mistake - by blaming him not her, 'cause she's your people, and he is not)


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

She will never admit her intentions especially if they would appear less favourable to you.

Safely assume she is lying


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> Make no mistake, she was testing the waters to decide whether or not to cheat on you with this guy. It sounds like *you lucked out, because the OM was a complete loser*.


Yea, no doubt he was a loser but more importantly appears that he was not really into her. More into her husband's wallet. 

If he were into her, you know that a guy being a loser, abusive, or an around complete waste, never stopped a WW from throwing a marriage or even a family under the bus for her new soul mate. How many times have we seen women affair down?


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Call me paranoid or anything you like but I think there is more to this story.

Your wife lied to you for five years. Why tell you now after all this time ? Maybe some of your friends or family knows a little bit more!

She introduce you to OM saying he was cousin and she never told you he was old boyfriend. No respect for you at all my friend.
She refused to talk with you about your loss but she open her heart to him seeking for "something". 

If he didnt talk about money then you would have a different story.

Her saying "I dont know" is another big lie and I see a problem here in the future.
She knows my friend and she planned it so perfect.

Talking with him and wanting to introduce him to you,your family and friends is not a "Violating Marriage Boundary". I called it Cheating. 

It is up to you from now on my friend. I really want to belive she never contacted him but it is hard.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

@as34ns9

I hope you come back to this thread. I also wanted to add to my previous thoughts... I don't believe that going into spy mode is appropriate; nor are any other snooping or damage control methods. But I agree with @spotthedeaddog in that my concern, if I were in your shoes, would be whether or not she feels guilt or remorse over breaching your trust, and lying to you about all this; whether or not you think this is a one-time mistake from someone you love; and whether or not it is something you can personally move on from. That's a personal decision, and based on your own capacities for forgiveness and compassion, and isn't for me or anyone else to decide.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Kivlor said:


> I don't believe that going into spy mode is appropriate; nor are any other snooping or damage control methods.


 Other than when you are going to the bathroom, there should be no expectation of privacy between spouses in a marriage. Thus, the use of terms with negative connotations such as "snooping" is not appropriate. If the OP feels the need, he should feel free to keep a watchful eye on the situation until he feels comfortable. Remember that while this is 5 years old to her, the OP just heard about it so it is new to him.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

If he wasn't a money grubbing loser your wife would be with him right now, don't think for a single minute that wasn't on her mind. 

She cannot be trusted, she can never BE trusted.

Know this. If you can live with it, then you're a better man than me.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Worth keeping your eyes open for.

Nothing more needed ATM. No spy stuff etc.

Just NEVER say she could NEVER do it again.


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