# The "Dating Market" is getting worse



## Lila

_The old but newly popular notion that one’s love life can be analyzed like an economy is flawed—and it’s ruining romance._

Great article in the Atlantic that goes into great detail into the use of economic theory to the "Dating Market". 

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/...-dating-odds-economy-apps-tinder-math/606982/



> (snip)It’s understandable that someone like Liz might internalize the idea that dating is a game of probabilities or ratios, or a marketplace in which single people just have to keep shopping until they find “the one.”*





> The unfortunate coincidence is that the fine-tuned analysis of dating’s numbers game and the streamlining of its trial-and-error process of shopping around have taken place as dating’s definition has expanded from “the search for a suitable marriage partner” into something decidedly more ambiguous. Meanwhile, technologies have emerged that make the market more visible than ever to the average person, encouraging a ruthless mind-set of assigning “objective” values to potential partners and to ourselves—with little regard for the ways that framework might be weaponized. The idea that a population of single people can be analyzed like a market might be useful to some extent to sociologists or economists, but the widespread adoption of it by single people themselves can result in a warped outlook on love.


I think much of what they say is true. I know I've internalized the idea that dating is a game of probabilities and ratios. And I absolutely have fallen into the trap of doing OLD because I'm lonely only to become more lonely afterwards. 

The marketplace is a mess but then again there is no alternative. 

Question:. How does one make the best of a very fault, but normalized, system.


----------



## arbitrator

*Unlike you, I gave up a long time ago, and don't even browse OLD much anymore!

The difference between us, @Lila is that you apparently still have it within your heart to trust ~ while I lost that and just don't know how to effectively get it back!*


----------



## lifeistooshort

Well OLD is a marketplace by nature. There's no way you can make a human connection this way and the temptation is to always wonder if you can do better. Buffett lines are the least intimate type of restaurant out there.

Get off OLD and join some meetup groups where you can make a human connection. I'm honestly not sure if I would've clicked my guy's profile, but since we met in a bike club and spent time riding and chatting he really grew on me and a connection developed.

I have a male running friend in his early 50's that met his longtime gf in a meetup group, which he mainly joined for some social interactions after his divorce. He says it saved his life. And she's a couple of years older...he wasn't interested in someone much younger.

Either find an activity you like or join a social group.


----------



## ConanHub

Honestly, it scares the crap out of me and I'm not sure I would participate if I found myself single in these times.

If I didn't meet someone another way, I would probably prefer to stay single anyway.


----------



## Middle of Everything

lifeistooshort said:


> Well OLD is a marketplace by nature. There's no way you can make a human connection this way and the temptation is to always wonder if you can do better. Buffett lines are the least intimate type of restaurant out there.
> 
> Get off OLD and join some meetup groups where you can make a human connection. I'm honestly not sure if I would've clicked my guy's profile, but since we met in a bike club and spent time riding and chatting he really grew on me and a connection developed.
> 
> I have a male running friend in his early 50's that met his longtime gf in a meetup group, which he mainly joined for some social interactions after his divorce. He says it saved his life. And she's a couple of years older...he wasn't interested in someone much younger.
> 
> Either find an activity you like or join a social group.


None of this applies to me, but this sounds like very sound advice. If you want it more natural then shopping for a guy on a computer just isnt going to work.


----------



## Married but Happy

I will use all means available if I ever reenter the dating game. I found OLD extraordinarily useful and had great success using it to find some wonderfully compatible women including my wife. I am very aware of the market and shopping mentality of many who use it, however, so I have no illusions about it being easy - patience and experience are needed.


----------



## Sfort

What is "OLD"?

EDIT: Oh, never mind. I just figured it out.


----------



## attheend02

In my opinion, its tough to judge the whole dating scene as a 50+ single.

I think many people are jaded by their history and that sets a predefined outcome to many experiences.

I try to not look for "red flags" on initial dates and instead look for opportunities. So far I have had fun meeting new people.

I just started a new relationship that was a non-virtual meet, though.


----------



## jlg07

I think one of the key lines in the article is this:
“People are seen as commodities, as opposed to individuals.”

I think this is the case in our modern society for WAY more than just dating, and it's a shame.


----------



## arbitrator

jlg07 said:


> I think one of the key lines in the article is this:
> “People are seen as commodities, as opposed to individuals.”
> 
> I think this is the case in our modern society for WAY more than just dating, and it's a shame.


*Well Put!

And that's coming from a guy, who since uttering his very first wedding vows, has felt greatly like this "commodity" you speak of!

OLD is for the "contestants" and the judges, and although my profiles are ancient while of a positive nature, I'm seriously thinking about ditching the whole process!

Besides that, I'm just too damned old!*


----------



## SpinyNorman

lifeistooshort said:


> Well OLD is a marketplace by nature. There's no way you can make a human connection this way and the temptation is to always wonder if you can do better. Buffett lines are the least intimate type of restaurant out there.
> 
> Get off OLD and join some meetup groups where you can make a human connection. I'm honestly not sure if I would've clicked my guy's profile, but since we met in a bike club and spent time riding and chatting he really grew on me and a connection developed.
> 
> I have a male running friend in his early 50's that met his longtime gf in a meetup group, which he mainly joined for some social interactions after his divorce. He says it saved his life. And she's a couple of years older...he wasn't interested in someone much younger.
> 
> Either find an activity you like or join a social group.


My wife and I consider ourselves profoundly lucky to be together, while agreeing if we'd read each other's profiles we probably wouldn't have seen much potential. 

I think it is ok to try OLD, but that activities and volunteering are usually better. I remember in college one time the prof picked 5 students and told them to stand in front of the class. He made them wait there a while, then asked them to count the blocks in the top of the back wall. Then he asked them if they felt more awkward while counting or before, of course before. The point is, if you're hiking w/ people or cleaning up the park, you have built-in things to start a conversation.

Also, I'd rather meet people who put their phone down and do stuff.


----------



## Ursula

OLD is impersonal yes, but it has 1 big bonus that you don’t get through meeting people the old-fashioned way: it puts a person in contact with a large number of people that you may overlook in real life.

I do like the suggestion of @lifeistooshort: joining a meetup group. It’s a safer alternative to meet someone, and if it’s a themed meetup group, then you know that they share an interest with you. For me, OLD was a better option because between work and my side gigs, I don’t have a lot of free time to join a bunch of groups. It was by no means easy; it was still a lot of work, but it was the way to go for me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

lifeistooshort said:


> Well OLD is a marketplace by nature. There's no way you can make a human connection this way and the temptation is to always wonder if you can do better. Buffett lines are the least intimate type of restaurant out there.
> 
> Get off OLD and join some meetup groups where you can make a human connection. I'm honestly not sure if I would've clicked my guy's profile, but since we met in a bike club and spent time riding and chatting he really grew on me and a connection developed.
> 
> I have a male running friend in his early 50's that met his longtime gf in a meetup group, which he mainly joined for some social interactions after his divorce. He says it saved his life. And she's a couple of years older...he wasn't interested in someone much younger.
> 
> Either find an activity you like or join a social group.


I agree singles should explore all options to meet people, and in person meeting is usually best because the first impression is much more clear than a first impression on OLD.

But it’s simply untrue that a human connection can’t be made through OLD.

The online part is over as soon as you meet in person and then it’s the same as if you had met some other way.

My guy and I met on OLD and have an amazing human connection. Also he and I never would have crossed paths in any meet up or group. So I’m thankful for the way we met as it was the only possible way.


----------



## Andy1001

ConanHub said:


> Honestly, it scares the crap out of me and I'm not sure I would participate if I found myself single in these times.
> 
> If I didn't meet someone another way, I would probably prefer to stay single anyway.


I


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> My guy and I met on OLD and have an amazing human connection. Also he and I never would have crossed paths in any meet up or group. So I’m thankful for the way we met as it was the only possible way.


Wait, which guy is this?

Are you an "item?" "Going steady?" Or whatever it's called these days when you're doing it on the regular?

Happy for you, btw.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> My guy and I met on OLD and have an amazing human connection. Also he and I never would have crossed paths in any meet up or group. So I’m thankful for the way we met as it was the only possible way.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, which guy is this?
> 
> Are you an "item?" "Going steady?" Or whatever it's called these days when you're doing it on the regular?
> 
> Happy for you, btw.
Click to expand...

My happy update is on the singles thread. Woot!


----------



## ConanHub

Andy1001 said:


> I


It still works!:wink2::grin2:


----------



## Lila

arbitrator said:


> *Unlike you, I gave up a long time ago, and don't even browse OLD much anymore!
> 
> The difference between us, @Lila is that you apparently still have it within your heart to trust ~ while I lost that and just don't know how to effectively get it back!*


Arb I'm right there with you. As nice as it would be to find someone with whom to share my life, I have come to accept that this is the season in my life where I am responsible for others. I have to see my son off to adulthood and my parents are needing more of my help. Thankfully, I can look back on my life and say that I had a pretty good run. I experienced being in love and being loved. That's more than a lot of people get.


----------



## Lila

> In the modern era, it seems probable that the way people now shop online for goods—in virtual marketplaces, where they can easily filter out features they do and don’t want—has influenced the way people “shop” for partners, especially on dating apps, which often allow that same kind of filtering. The behavioral economics researcher and dating coach Logan Ury said in an interview that many single people she works with engage in what she calls “relationshopping.”


*Relationshopping*

Great description. 

I have done online dating in the past but not for long however I find this mentality of Relationshopping to be evident even 'in real life' interactions.


----------



## arbitrator

Lila said:


> *Arb I'm right there with you. As nice as it would be to find someone with whom to share my life, I have come to accept that this is the season in my life where I am responsible for others. I have to see my son off to adulthood and my parents are needing more of my help. Thankfully, I can look back on my life and say that I had a pretty good run. I experienced being in love and being loved. That's more than a lot of people get.*


*Other than for occasional bouts of loneliness, I feel the very same way you do! My oldest is about to "pop the question" to his STBFiance while in the midst of working on his masters, and trying to qualify to ref football in major college; my youngest has graduated college and is spreading his wings in his new job and I'm loving being a part of all of it!

At times, I really believe that the Heavenly Father, brought Mathias to me to help me combat that opposite sex loneliness! It's as if He is there trying to save me from not only myself, but something that I probably can no longer handle!

And after God so lovingly saw fit to have placed that puppy into my life, I absolutely wouldn't trade that lovable golden furry fleabag for anything in the world!*


----------



## Girl_power

I am a big believer of working for what you want, of creating your own life, of creating the person you want to be. Things don’t happen, you have to make them happen type of thing. Therefore, because one day I want to be married again, I will put effort into finding Mr. right.


----------



## Sfort

Exactly! I know two beautiful women who are doing this exact behavior.


----------



## Lila

Girl_power said:


> I am a big believer of working for what you want, of creating your own life, of creating the person you want to be. Things don’t happen, you have to make them happen type of thing. Therefore, because one day I want to be married again, I will put effort into finding Mr. right.



How do you line up what the article mentioned about the current "market" approach to dating with your search for Mr. Right?


----------



## Lila

Sfort said:


> Exactly! I know two beautiful women who are doing this exact behavior.


Is it working for them?


----------



## Sfort

Lila said:


> Is it working for them?


I don't think they've had a break in yet, but they're rather young, so there's time.


----------



## Sfort

Lila said:


> Is it working for them?


One of them complained to me once that all of the men she meets have drinking problems. 

"Where do you meet them?"

"Bars."

Duh.


----------



## Lila

Sfort said:


> I don't think they've had a break in yet, but they're rather young, so there's time.





Sfort said:


> One of them complained to me once that all of the men she meets have drinking problems.
> 
> "Where do you meet them?"
> 
> "Bars."
> 
> Duh.


Since they are younger, it would be interesting to get their thoughts on the article. 

I do hope they find someone special.


----------



## Girl_power

Lila said:


> How do you line up what the article mentioned about the current "market" approach to dating with your search for Mr. Right?




I agree that people “shop around” and the whole process becomes inhuman and very business like, itemizing people and being quick to move on because we are all just walking qualities/characteristics to people not actual people with feelings. 
However, I believe not everyone is like that. And I hope when you meet someone you really want/like and what your looking for, I hope that it just works for them. 

My thing is, if you want something bad enough you will go to great lengths to get it. Or at least try to get it. That doesn’t mean OLD. I’m saying putting effort into meeting people is a must if you want to find Someone. 


I have a guy friend who is 32, has a 6 figure salary, in amazing shape, and he has stopped OLD, he refuses to join clubs with me to meet new people. And he recently told me that he is getting lonely, that it is palpable. And I told him that he needs to do something bc soon he will be a bitter angry man. And he admitted that he is becoming bitter. But imo he isn’t helping himself by “giving up”. 
And I think it’s a sad double standard that the man has to be the one to ask a girl out and hit on a girl. Because he doesn’t even try anymore, and not many women will be bold enough to do it.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Girl_power said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you line up what the article mentioned about the current "market" approach to dating with your search for Mr. Right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that people “shop around” and the whole process becomes inhuman and very business like, itemizing people and being quick to move on because we are all just walking qualities/characteristics to people not actual people with feelings.
> However, I believe not everyone is like that. And I hope when you meet someone you really want/like and what your looking for, I hope that it just works for them.
> 
> My thing is, if you want something bad enough you will go to great lengths to get it. Or at least try to get it. That doesn’t mean OLD. I’m saying putting effort into meeting people is a must if you want to find Someone.
> 
> 
> I have a guy friend who is 32, has a 6 figure salary, in amazing shape, and he has stopped OLD, he refuses to join clubs with me to meet new people. And he recently told me that he is getting lonely, that it is palpable. And I told him that he needs to do something bc soon he will be a bitter angry man. And he admitted that he is becoming bitter. But imo he isn’t helping himself by “giving up”.
> And I think it’s a sad double standard that the man has to be the one to ask a girl out and hit on a girl. Because he doesn’t even try anymore, and not many women will be bold enough to do it.
Click to expand...

Maybe he is MGTOW


----------



## Girl_power

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Maybe he is MGTOW




He’s not. He’s the nicest man and one is my best friends. He’s a born again Christian, dying to have a wife and kids. He’s one of those people who you know God made specifically to be a husband and a father. He is very much a relationship type of man.


----------



## Girl_power

I’m not trying to judge, just giving my opinion. I know many people have been through tough times. Way tougher than I know. But there is something sad about becoming bitter, and hardened by the world. It’s Like drinking poison, and no one wants to be around that type of energy and spirit. And these people are usually really good people also which makes it more sad. They are self-fulfilling prophecies.

There is something about always being hopeful, and expecting something great to happen. To dust yourself off and jump back on that horse. To know your worth and know your destined for good things. There is a light there if you know what I mean.


----------



## Lila

Girl_power said:


> I’m not trying to judge, just giving my opinion. I know many people have been through tough times. Way tougher than I know. But there is something sad about becoming bitter, and hardened by the world. It’s Like drinking poison, and no one wants to be around that type of energy and spirit. And these people are usually really good people also which makes it more sad. They are self-fulfilling prophecies.
> 
> There is something about always being hopeful, and expecting something great to happen. To dust yourself off and jump back on that horse. To know your worth and know your destined for good things. There is a light there if you know what I mean.


I'm not sure what you mean. Do you disagree with the article's position then?


----------



## Sfort

Girl_power said:


> I’m not trying to judge, just giving my opinion. I know many people have been through tough times. Way tougher than I know. But there is something sad about becoming bitter, and hardened by the world. It’s like drinking poison, and no one wants to be around that type of energy and spirit. And these people are usually really good people also which makes it more sad. They are self-fulfilling prophecies.
> 
> There is something about always being hopeful and expecting something great to happen. To dust yourself off and jump back on that horse. To know your worth and know you're destined for good things. There is a light there if you know what I mean.


Wow. Nerve hit. You've shown a lot of insight and wisdom in that post. Unfortunately, I'm becoming one of these bitter and hardened people. But that's another very long post. 

I think I needed to hear this.


----------



## Girl_power

Lila said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. Do you disagree with the article's position then?




Its not anything imo to agree or disagree about. I think that it gives an overview on how dating has changed and what the current market looks like now. I agree that many people use OLD like someone looking through a catalog. And I believe that’s what this article is saying. We are more In control then we have ever been. Although we think we know what we want and we go looking through dating profiles like we know what is best for us.


----------



## Girl_power

Sfort said:


> Wow. Nerve hit. You've shown a lot of insight and wisdom in that post. Unfortunately, I'm becoming one of these bitter and hardened people. But that's another very long post.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I needed to hear this.




I think it’s good to recognize that your becoming bitter. But don’t let the world turn you into that. Life is great. There are great amazing things all around us we just need to stop and smell the roses. Our minds control our actions and our actions form our life. Think positive, speak positive, and start making positive choices. 
I want everyone to be happy


----------



## wilson

Girl_power said:


> He’s not. He’s the nicest man and one is my best friends. He’s a born again Christian, dying to have a wife and kids. He’s one of those people who you know God made specifically to be a husband and a father. He is very much a relationship type of man.


Maybe he should switch churches. I would think a guy like that in church would be attracting women like they were a horde of locusts.


----------



## Girl_power

wilson said:


> Maybe he should switch churches. I would think a guy like that in church would be attracting women like they were a horde of locusts.




I tried telling him that. But he goes to his childhood church with his whole family and refuses to change. 

Basically he tried OLD for a few months and gave up. And he isnt willing to try anything new. 

Where there is a will there is a way, and some people find problems with every solution. I cough it up to... he is making the decision to give up, and that’s on him and only him.


----------



## Wolf1974

Lila said:


> _The old but newly popular notion that one’s love life can be analyzed like an economy is flawed—and it’s ruining romance._
> 
> Great article in the Atlantic that goes into great detail into the use of economic theory to the "Dating Market".
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/family/...-dating-odds-economy-apps-tinder-math/606982/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think much of what they say is true. I know I've internalized the idea that dating is a game of probabilities and ratios. And I absolutely have fallen into the trap of doing OLD because I'm lonely only to become more lonely afterwards.
> 
> The marketplace is a mess but then again there is no alternative.
> 
> Question:. How does one make the best of a very fault, but normalized, system.


Simple. You have to lower your expectations on the experience. Honesty and truly all my frustrations about OLD went out the window when I stopped looking as dating as a goal and a objective and just a casual thing to do. It makes the process of “weeding through hundreds to find the one” tolerable and actually fun. I loved OLD. Met my STBW on Match


----------



## frusdil

I hate dating in general, I'm a relationship person.

That said, I met my husband on OLD. A few of us joined in support of a friend who had come out of a long relationship and was wanting to date again but was too chicken on her own. I had a couple of dates, they were ok, one guy clearly just wanted a booty call, so I nexted him. Then I saw my husbands profile and liked what I read so I 'liked' it, he responded and the rest is history! Lol!

I got really REALLY lucky


----------



## NextTimeAround

I was getting too old for OLD as I was in the UK that time. 

I will give the same advice that I followed:
1. Build up your social circles. 
2. Identify 2 or 3 activities that bring you satisfaction; find clubs / networking groups that is built around those acitivities.
3. Make sure the group is of the type of people you want to continue meeting
4. and then Bob's your uncle. Or in my case, Vince. (my husband's uncle)

I lived in London where there was a lot going on: people marrying later or not at all; more interracial dating; 

Meetup exploded in London, so many themed clubs , activities, people to meet. I did worry about how to meet new people and circulate as I was completing my divorce.


----------



## AVR1962

Online dating is tough, no doubt!! I have however, met several real nice men this way. Not all are as I thought they would be just talking on the phone and those went no further. I have been to meet-up groups with no luck, been approached while eating in a restaurant but those never went past the conversation. I personally don't have the opportunity to meet anyone with my work. I have been approached at the gym but that also has not gone beyond the short conversation. I have had more luck online but it has been like weeding thru acres of thorns. You find someone you might be attracted to and contact them, if they respond the chances of you meeting are slim and if it gets to that point seeing each other for any length of time is ever trickier. So those I feel I have "clicked" with I feel fortunate. Dating is alot of work!


----------



## EleGirl

Last week a woman I know in another state called me about a guy she met online. He has told her all this time that he's an FBI agent and he lives in NYC. She'd been emailing and texting him for 3 months. The had never talked on the phone or any type of video chat. She said she was going slow because this time she wanted to be smart about getting into a relationship. 

She called me and said something seemed off. He was texting her claiming that he was in London on FBI business. She suggested by text that he call her so they could finally talk. He told her that he cannot use his official FBI cell phone to call her and suggested that she buy a cell phone and send it to him. Now keep in mind that he's texting her on what he claimed to be his "official FBI cell phone". When she texted back that this made no sense. He could just go buy a cheap throw away. He got very angry in text. She stopped texting him and called me.

I asked her to send me the photos from her dating account and the name he was using. The photos were of a very clean cut guy. There was even one of him with an old lady, presumably his mom. How sweet.

I did a photo search online on all 5 photos. It took a little while but the head-shot photo was found. Yep, I found his face book account, his business website, his LinkedIn account, and lot more. Oh I also found his wife's facebook account, the Facebook page for the class she teaches, and on and on. It really did not take all that long to find all this.

So I sent her his real name and links to all his web accounts and websites. Turns out the guy is a married guy who lives in the San Francisco area. He's a well to do real estate developer.. and fairly young. His phone number was on his business sites. 

I told her to not call him. It could be that come scammer just use the guy's photos so this guy would not know anything about it. Or if he is the guy she's been in contact with for months, the guy is not a good person and she really should not open herself up to contact with him. So we said good bye. She promised to not call him.

But of course as soon as she hung up from me she called the number for the real-estate guy. He answered the phone. He claimed to not know anything about some guy who she was in contact with. She told him that she thought she would contact the police or FBI to report the same. To that he told her not to do that because no crime was committed.... Uh Hu... someone is using your identity online and there is not problem? You know for a fact that there is no problem? 😅😂🤣

After she told me about this, she said that she would not contact him again. I'm waiting to see if she does contact him again. LOL


----------



## jlg07

What the HELL is wrong with people that they do this sort of crap? Just because you CAN doesn't mean you should.
Ugh, I hope that guy get caught and gets what he deserves.
I'm glad your friend found this out before getting too "into" him and didn't get hurt.


----------



## EleGirl

jlg07 said:


> What the HELL is wrong with people that they do this sort of crap? Just because you CAN doesn't mean you should.
> Ugh, I hope that guy get caught and gets what he deserves.
> I'm glad your friend found this out before getting too "into" him and didn't get hurt.


While she did not get so into a relationship with him that she's broken hearted, she feels pretty stupid and is beating herself up over it.

I suggested that in the future she investigates the guy first and then sets up a face to face very soon. This usually means only going online to meet people who are local and a few non-local who travel to your location often.


----------



## TomNebraska

Lila said:


> ...
> Question:. How does one make the best of a very fault, but normalized, system.


this part of the article you posted rang true for me:



> Last year, researchers at ... examined the link between loneliness and compulsive use of dating apps—interviewing college students who spent above-average time swiping—and found a terrible feedback loop: The lonelier you are, the more doggedly you will seek out a partner, and the more negative outcomes you’re likely to be faced with, and the more alienated from other people you will feel. This happens to men and women in the same way.


I _would _find myself getting dejected over bad outcomes here and there. It seemed like (at least on Bumble) matches would come in waves: I'd get 3 or 4 promising ones, a couple wouldn't respond, or we wouldn't really seem to connect, but 1 or 2 would turn into dates. Sometimes I'd go a couple weeks without any. I would get annoyed and frustrated, but I'd remind myself to chill out and be patient, since it _IS _just a numbers game.

these apps are all just algorithms that feed you potential likes. I didn't view this as a negative thing. I looked at it this way: If I went to a city of a 1,000,000 people, and was told names of eligble singles would be randomly drawn out of a hat until I found someone I liked, how long would it take? it could be tomorrow, or it could be in 6 months, but I wasn't in any hurry. And in the meantime, if I met someone a more traditional way, so much the better. But being 40, divorced with kids, and in a city I moved to for work, later in life, & where I had no friends, meeting people through my social circle or through the bar scene wasn't happening, so I knew OLD was a necessity, unless I wanted to sit home alone on the weekends. 

So long story short, what helped me was to keep all this in perspective: I'd remind myself that what happened on the dating app didn't change who I am, and it didn't say anything about women (or I suppose men) in general, or our society; it's just an algorithm programmed by some geek that matches sets of data.


----------

