# Married, with out love.



## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

I met my husband online 8 or 9 years ago. He decided to come meet me 7 years ago. We both lived on opposite sides of the country. I looked for a place to live and he moved in with me and my son from a previous relationship who at the time was 2. He was 18, I was 23. He did the best he could do for us. He went against his family wishes and came to be with me. 

Shortly after he moved in we got pregnant. Through the course of getting to know him better I realized I didn't feel for him the same way that he said he felt for me. I wanted to, I just didn't. He was overly needy. He needed a lot more attention than I was wanting to give him, even over the smallest things. He was very dramatic. I was really kind of turned off by it. He's handsome but I wasn't attracted to him. 

When his first child arrived (my second) the baby passed away shortly after he was born. There was a lot of stress and we were fighting all of the time. He eventually lost his job which just strained our relationship even more. He wasn't finding another one and he was on the phone with his family on the west coast talking to them all the time telling them lies about me and setting himself up to be welcomed back home. 

I knew at this point that I did not love him. I also recognized that he would be a good father and provider and that if I didn't fight for him and try my hardest I'd be letting the best thing that ever happened to me walk out the door. I very much wanted to love him and was just confused altogether about what love was and what I should and shouldn't be feeling. 

I fought for him. His initial plan was to leave me and go back home. I went from friend to family member begging everyone for advice. I knew that if I wanted to stay with him I'd have to give up everything and move to the west coast with him. It would be a chance to start over fresh. With out the stress of family and the painful "I'm sorry for your loss." Being that I had a son already I had to have a bit of security so I told him as long as he secures a job and a place for us to live I will quit my job and move to be with him on the west coast. In about 3 weeks this all went through. When he found his job and a place for us to live I gave away everything I owned and shipped what I could and purchased plane tickets and with the support of my father, brother, and friends moved to be with him. 

Shortly after living here we had quite a few problems and we got pregnant again. I was really stressed out about it because I was afraid I was going to lose this baby too. Still wasn't loving him though. I was reluctant to have sex with him because it just didn't do anything for me and because I didn't love him. When kissing him I'd pull away. When ever we had fights and he get mad he'd say things intentionally to hurt me. He is malicious and vindictive when he is mad. He denies me sleep. If I fall asleep he pushes me or yells and refuses to let me sleep. Many fights we had and many mornings he wouldn't let me go to sleep until I was weeping and it was 5 am. There are many things that happened like this that was keeping me from loving him as well. 

I have been on the west coast here now for 5 years. Three years ago we got married. We have 3 kids (2 of them are his, 1 from previous relationship). After 7 years and knowing that I do not love him and the struggles we have been having we've been talking. I have told him he's more of a friend to me than anything at this point. He is extremely selfish and self centered from what we watch on tv, to taking the kids out to play to not allowing me to doze off on the couch even when there's something boring on tv and I need a little rest because he says he's jealous of my time and loves me very much and wants me to be awake with him and always giving him attention. 

I care about him. I like him as a person. I don't like how he treats people. I don't like that he won't help me with anything around the house. I don't like that I am responsible for everything in the house including mowing the lawn and keeping the car kept up. I am a stay at home mom. I do not shop for anything, anytime. I rarely even buy groceries. He stresses about money all the time. I get told no about anything I want to buy in the store. He puts his hand on my back and "jokingly" pushes me along when I see something that I like in the store and would like to have. He says he loves me. 

After our recent conversations he has cried and says he doesn't feel the same way that he used to about me and it breaks his heart but that he does still love me. As time goes on I begin to like him less and less. I am now 31 he is now 25. My kids are 2, 3 and 9. I will say he has been an excellent provider and a good father, as good as he can be. I am not the best parent and I am not the best wife. I have no job, no money, no car.

Should I stay in this relationship for my children? Should I get out and find someone I love and can share my life with unconditionally? I feel I owe it to him as well so he can find someone who will love him. He deserves that. To throw another thing into the problem.... I have found someone whom I have fallen in love with recently. Butterflies and racing heart and pacing and constant smiling... all the things I have never felt before... I have now experienced and want more of. Should it matter that I met this person online? Most people will think so. I know it's possible to fall in love with someone using a computer. It's harder to make it work but it's definitely possible. Does that mean that we will get together? I don't know... maybe not. And that's not even what I am focused on at this point. I just know that there is something incredible that I have now felt that I have never in my life experienced before and like a drug I want it all the time. Should I stay and be thankful that I have someone now who is a good provider and cares about his children and me. Or should I take this one life I have and go find the happiness my heart desires most?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Nice to meet you

I'm not going to focus on the abuse by sleep deprivation for now, because, I was fascinated by something else:



wheresthelove said:


> I just know that there is something incredible that I have now felt that I have never in my life experienced before and like a drug I want it all the time. Should I stay and be thankful that I have someone now who is a good provider and cares about his children and me. Or should I take this one life I have and go find the happiness my heart desires most?


You need to meditate on these questions over and over until you get clarity. 

One thing to bear in mind is that in all encounters, but especially via a computer, the whole thing is taking place in your own mind. Although the man on the other keyboard is providing unique input, the feelings triggered in you, are just that - your feelings created by you. What this shows is that you are capable of having very intense feelings. Believe it or not, you could have this with your husband. And I can prove it:

Imagine your husband tricked you - imagine it was him on that computer pretending to be someone else. (Now I know you're going to say, that your hubby's writing style is different from Mr. X, but just humour me for a moment). Imagine the elation you felt. Now imagine the comedown you would feel when you find out that it is really your husband. 

You would go from high to low in 5 seconds.

This is our life. Most of it is going on in our heads. Master the head - master life.


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## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

You should move on. You can get a job and you can support your kids. He will still need to continue supporting his kids, so it won't be just you doing it. You'll feel good to not be pimping yourself out for a roof over your head. I'm married without love too, but money is not the issue for me. Money couldn't keep me in an unhappy situation. I know it's more complicated for you also, though.

From what you've written, there are many unlikable and even abusive things about your husband. I don't imagine anyone staying or falling in love with someone who's treating them like that (not letting you buy anything, not letting you sleep, not doing anything around the house). So, can you try counseling first so he can get a wake up call on the things he could be doing that MIGHT help you start liking him again. You can't love someone you don't even like. But if counseling is not in the cards, I say call a lawyer.

As for the new guy ... have you made the connection that you met your husband online also. That you "fell in love" with him through a computer and got involved too fast, married too fast, etc. Then you got to live with him and see who he really is.

The lesson? The way people are through a computer is not what they are in real life. And if you meet them in person for a few minutes here and there, they can maintain the facade of their online persona, but you won't really know them until you spend lots and lots of time with them. Especially given the fact that you have three children, I would NOT get involved with another man until you are fully divorced and 100% independent financially. Then you won't be tempted to end up with another a-hole just so you could have someone to pay your bills. You also can't afford to bring a man into your children's life that could harm them physically or emotionally. Or that will abandon them once things don't work out between you.

My "rule of thumb" when it comes to little kids is that you can date, but THEY should be your main focus. And that you should date someone for at least a year (and not having them around the kids during that time) before you even introduce them to the kids. I'm serious. Dating and early relationships are very unstable and kids coming out of a divorce don't need the additional stress and potential loss.

So, forget about this online guy. Get the divorce. Get a job. Get a car. Strengthen your self-esteem and your faith that you CAN take care of you!


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## Sprite (Nov 3, 2008)

I totally agree with MsLady.

There is no point in staying in a relationship with someone that you don't even like all that much. If you feel that way now...how will you feel in 5 years from now? Do you thnk it will change? I don't!

If you stay with this man who does not sound like too much of a good anything(husband or father) you will regret it later in life.

If you get counceling and he can change..great...but how long will it be before he is back to his old ways?

You deserve better!


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

Please allow me to explain this a little further I guess. I am a gamer. I have been a gamer since I was 15 years old. That has stuck with me and that is what I do. Aside from being a stay at home mom and taking care of my kids that is what I do to pass the hours away. I moved from one coast to the other. I have no real life social life, or friends. I don't know any adults my age and am not close with anyone. My husband is also a gamer. He plays games on his computer as well. The person I refer to when I say that I have fallen for someone on the computer is a gamer as well. What this means is that I do not know this person on just a text based level. I know this persons voice. I know this persons heart and I know the way this person thinks when we play together. I have seen pictures and the like. It isn't just merely something in my head. I have also confessed the feelings I have for this person to this person. I did this because I don't want to live a life of regrets. Right now there's no harm done. I have these feelings and there's nothing I can do about them. Whether I say anything or not they are still going to be there. I decided I didn't want to regret him not knowing how I feel and be hiding it. Funny thing is he already knew by the way I talked to him. It's like being on the phone with him all the time except it's free and I'm with him and all of my other friends online because I have none in real life. 

I just recently got into it with my husband again. Last night we stayed up til 2 am playing our games... then when we went to bed he wanted to be intimate with me. I must say I get no results out of being intimate with him at all. He makes me feel nothing. I don't even get a little bit excited about intimacy. That being said when he tried to do things for me and tried to be intimate with me I just wasn't into it. He handed me the remote and wanted me to find something for him to watch on tv. When this happens that means he wants me to find him some nudity/porn. He knows it would not be well received with me if he just puts it on. So he hands the remote to me and expects me to find it for him. I knew that is what he wanted.. and I wasn't going to have it.... instead I put it on some award show. He got very aggravated about this. 

My hands are really dry and cracked due to the weather and I had just put some lotion on them and covered them so they could heal over night and he expects that I want to be with him and get into it. He wanted me to be kinky with him basically. I have a hard time being anything at all with him because I do not love him. I do not want to be intimate with him. I only do it because it is my wifely duty. I am to honor my husband and I try to do this to the best of my ability but there are things that I can not bring myself to do simply because I need the love to be there and it's just not. That night after I put it on the award show and started to doze off he got really mad at me again and started waking me up. Every time I dozed off he'd wake me up because he was sexually frustrated. I am so sick of him doing this to me. I made a point of telling him to leave me a lone and stop waking me up and he eventually stopped. In the morning when I woke up I was really bitter at him still for waking me up and trying to deny me sleep because he was mad at me. I said a few snappy things at him which started a whole day of arguing. I was honest with him and pointed out that he denies me sleep all the time and it has to stop. That I very much dislike how he treats people and that his own brother is beginning to resent him and dislike him because of how he treats him. I pointed out that they both are competing for the spot light and they don't care who they have to step on to get it. 

After all I had to say to him I don't fully think he absorbed any of it. We ended up having to go grocery shopping which he doesn't want to do because he is lazy. In the store he did nothing but grope me. He constantly was talking dirty to me and constantly would fondle and grab me. I hate it. There is nothing tender and loving about anything he does. He says he just wants to slam me or what ever. I am so turned off by this I don't know how to explain it. Is there something wrong with me?? Shouldn't I be happy that I have a husband who wants to show me affection? Shouldn't I like the fact that he wants to touch me and is turned on by me? Shouldn't I want to have sex with him all the time? I don't though. AT all. I am so confused. 

Again I am a stay at home mom. I have 3 kids. I have no money and no family or friends here on the west coast and at his point no way to support them. I have thought about trying to get a 2nd shift job and going back to work so I can save some money and figure out what to do but at this point I don't know that I want to stay in this for the rest of my life. I don't know what to do and I would like some more advice please if you have any more to give me. Thank you for your current suggestions and advice I really appreciate it. It has helped a lot with my thinking.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove said:


> Is there something wrong with me?? Shouldn't I be happy that I have a husband who wants to show me affection? Shouldn't I like the fact that he wants to touch me and is turned on by me? Shouldn't I want to have sex with him all the time? I don't though. AT all. I am so confused.


Given his treatment of you, it's not surprising you don't want sex. However, could this be a case of chicken and egg? What I mean is, did he start the sleep deprivation thing because you constantly denied him sex, or do you deny him sex because of his treatment of you?

How often do you have sex at the moment?


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

The sleep deprivation has always been there. It started out simply that he did not want to be alone and was jealous of my time and didn't want me sleeping while he was awake. Just recently I talked with him about this because I was tired the on Christmas day and we were expecting his family over and I asked if I could take a quick nap on the couch. I had been doing a lot of things. I was up til 2 am wrapping presents. He didn't want me to go to sleep. And in turn he laid down and tried to go to sleep. He said it was because he doesn't want to be awake while I'm sleeping and that if we both can't sleep than neither one of us should be able to. It's totally messed up thinking in my opinion. Anytime he needs sleep or falls asleep I let him with out interruption. Right now our sex life is very strained. I don't want to have sex with him at all. We have sex about 3 times a week maybe. If I can avoid him and go to bed after he has fallen asleep I will. He does nothing for me sexually. I am expected to have sex with it and want to have sex with him. He wants oral sex from me and I can't give it to him because I just don't like him. It is mainly because of this, him wanting what I am unwilling to give him that he keeps me up til 5 am and won't allow me to sleep. I have many legitimate reasons why I do not like giving him oral sex. 

Right now he is mad at me because he wanted me last night and I avoided him. He wants me to want him but I don't. I will give it to him with no questions asked and no complaints but that's not good enough and you know it shouldn't be. He should have a loving wife but he doesn't. I should go to him with a loving heart wanting to do this stuff for him but I don't. He is so mad and frustrated at everyone right now that he is yelling at everyone. He is sexually frustrated. I told him when we put our babies down for a nap I will make him feel better and take care of it. He told me he doesn't want to based on principal. Because I didn't come to bed last night. When I did come to bed he grabbed me here and there and fell back to sleep. He is mad at me because he was too sleepy to do anything at that point. The night before I had offered myself to him and he didn't take it and got mad at me. He's mad because things aren't going exactly as he has planned in his head. He wants me to be this fantasy porn star in his bedroom. One of which I admit might be fun to do .. but I just can't.... He barely touches me/rubs me for foreplay and I do the same for him. That's it. Then we have some extremely dry and in his mind boring sex. But in the end he gets the same result. He has his orgasm and he's good. I rarely ever have one.. and there is nothing he can do to bring me to one. I normally have to get myself there. Lately that has been impossible.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove-

So what do you want right now? Do you want a better marriage with him? Do you want to leave him? Do you want the other guy?

I'm not asking you about fantasy here. When I say *want*, I mean, what do you want to do next. In other words, what do you see yourself doing next? What are you most likely to do?

If you can write that down, you might get some clarity about how to achieve that.


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

Please allow me to update before answering the question. 

This afternoon after I put my babies down for a nap we had our little one on one time. During this time I realized what is really bothering me about sex and why it does nothing for me. First off as I've stated before I'm not that attracted to him/no love. Secondly he can only handle thrusting 3-4 times then having to stop because he's on the brink of losing it. This afternoon I just laid there, unable to move. I laid there completely still and he still lost it. I wouldn't say he's a minute man necessarily but he can not handle moving and keeping a good rythm/pace with out having to stop entirely so I can bring myself to the point on my own and he finishes it off. Sex is not that important to me especially because of these circumstances. We make it work somehow. I just don't know that it can work with out the love. 

This afternoon his brother called him out on the fact that he refuses to go anywhere on the weekend and take the family with him. He basically won't do it because it's too much work getting everyone ready and it makes his weekend feel short so we never leave the house. His brother said he is responsible for leading our family and by doing what he is doing he is being selfish and hurting us. I was kind of surprised that he said that to him. 

To answer your questions: Yes I want a better marriage. I would preferably like to have a better marriage with the man I married however I do not like this man. I don't think he's going to change all that much. I would like to possibly move on. However I do NOT want to hurt my children, or separate them or be an absentee parent myself. Of course I long to have the other guy. However I don't know how the other guy feels entirely. So my main focus isn't hoping from one relationship to the next, that will fall in place on it's own, but rather my focus is on securing a life for myself and my children. 

My New Years resolution is to work on making my life better. To do this I must acquire a second shift job as my husband works first shift. I must earn some money so I can save money and figure out how to possibly move on. I know that he will fight for his children for visitation and the whole 9 yards and the whole thing is gonna be a train wreck. I need to establish security before I can do anything.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove-

I don't have much time right now, and I want to go into the sleep deprivation thing more. However, I have written a lot about premature ejaculation. This is very easy to treat, especially in older men. Please see my forum:


Definition of premature ejaculation - The sexuality support group forum

Exercises for improving Premature Ejaculation - The sexuality support group forum


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

I read everything in both of the links. It's very intriguing. It is nice to know that there is a solution to this problem. I must confess however that this problem may even be entirely my own fault. The relationship I had before my husband the man was in love with his own hands. He enjoyed his self gratification far more than he enjoyed intercourse with me. It hurt. I had a huge problem with this. When I got together with my husband and saw that he had no self control in this department and had told him what my prior relationship had been like.... well I gave him hell about it. I thought it was crap to come home and find his pants around his ankles because he had no self control and couldn't wait for me and share the experience together. I don't understand why it's okay for a man to walk around with his penis in his hands all the time messing with himself. That's my own personal opinion. I just don't understand it. I don't think it's okay for a woman either. I went through this with him and after many fights and a couple of years he finally got to the point where he respected how I felt about it and would save himself for when we were together. We had a lot of honesty and trust issues because he would lie to me a lot and about doing that stuff. The reason he ejaculates permaturely is probably due to this. I've gotten to a point now where I don't care if he chooses to do that or not. He says he doesn't though.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove-

Are you saying he never used to have p.e. ?

P.E in men is caused mostly by an inability to relax. Whereas tension causes women to take ages, it causes men to "erupt" unexpectedly. Also, there is often a mindset of being in a rush. If you were to lovingly help him, the pair of you could tackle it in a few weeks.

Maybe you don't want to give him that much love right now. But guess who would be the chief beneficiary?

Even on his own, he could get somwhere with the exercises, but it would mean masturbating. However, it could still be a shared experience.

There is a lot you two could do to improve the relationship. You could have him eating out of the palm of your hand. Do you want some suggestions?


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

The P.E. has always been there. I just wondered if I was to blame for it staying there as he discontinued masturbating because I didn't like it. I mean he knows how to slow himself down and make himself last a while. It can go as long as 15 minutes or more sometimes with frequent breaks and him having to pull out. What I was saying is that he can not keep up any rhythm or pace with out constantly having to do this. Which never brings me to my peak. In which case I end up having to rub myself while he is taking his break to get me as close as I can or even all the way sometimes so he can go do his 3 or 4 more thrusts and be done. He says it feels really good and he has all he can do to stop himself. If I twitch just a tiny bit he'll lose it. 

However this is not my problem. As I have said we have figured out a way around this. I was just commenting that I have figured out one of the many reasons why I do not like having sex with him. One reason is I get punished if I don't. Not all the time but sometimes, by this I mean sleep deprivation. Another reason is the P.E. and inability to bring me to my peak, however I don't really care about this. The main reason is that I just don't love him. Which is the whole reason for this post. If it was just the sex I'd be searching for help to spice it up and fix it. It's my inability to go to him with a loving heart and give him what ever he desires unconditionally. He says he would do anything for me, no matter what it is. I have my reservations and can not stop myself from giving him a quick peck on the lips and then recoiling. I don't understand why it's like this. 

I came into this relationship meaning well and wanting to be in love with him. I am just not. I figured given time I could fall in love with him... but I haven't. I care about him. I even like him as a friend. Right now he is my only friend. In the bedroom it is I who am lacking more than he. I refuse to do things he asks me to do. I am very uncomfortable with most of it including things he wants to do for me out of love. I will not allow him to do them. Makes me extremely uncomfortable and it also begs for reciprocation which I feel like I'm being pressured into. 

I've pretty well made a mess of things and am just not sure what I should do with my life at this point. I don't know if I should continue to endure giving up dry uncomfortable sex that I am not wanting to have, even when it's clearly stated that I wish not to have it, if I should continue to reply in kind "I love you" when he tells me he loves me, if I should count my blessings and thank the Lord that I have a man who is attracted to me and is trying to do the best he can for us.... If I should be selfish and ungrateful and try to move on? I don't know what to do. I don't know what I will end up doing. I am confused and to a certain degree scared as well. The idea of turning our lives upside down is highly unappealing to me. My question still remains though. What should I do with this one life I have to live? Follow my heart? Seek my dreams? Or settle for the mess I have created. In the end I picked this life. I said "I do" even when I wasn't feeling it. It was my mistake. Live with it, or don't?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove-

You've got to understand that when two people treat each other as roughly as you two have, it can make one or both of you feel less love than when you started. If he had remorse for the sleep deprivation, and totally stopped doing it, you might be able to forgive him. But right now, I wonder if you realize just how resentful you are - and rightly so. If your heart is full of resentment, any love you may have had will be crowded out. before you decide it is time to start marriage #3... how about looking at these obvious things. It would not take as long to put right as you think. 

Once you have cleared out all the crap from your marriage, then you can decide more clearly if it's divorce or reconciliation.


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

Thank you for all of your advice MarkTwain I really appreciate it. It has given me a lot to think about. 

I'd just like to clarify that this is my first and only marriage. Not that it matters but I just don't like the idea of sounding like I hop from one relationship to the next like that. I do have a child from a previous relationship when I was 21 years old and made yet another mistake as we sometimes do when we are young. We were not married however. Okay totally off topic though and I apologize. 

I don't like being made a fool of. I don't like getting hurt due to my being gullible and naive. I worked really hard on figuring him out. In the beginning of our relationship he exploited these things about me. I didn't like it. I figured him out. I observed him and I found out how his mind works. I know what he is thinking before he thinks it. This was my defense mechanism. I can not read his mind, of course not, but typically by facial expressions and body movements I know what mood he is in and what kind of thoughts he is likely having and I can tell him what he is thinking before he says it and begrudgingly he admits that I am right. I had to stop him from making me feel like a fool. I now know when he is lying to me. He can't lie I will catch him every time. I also have this gut feeling when something is right or wrong. If I trust my instincts they are usually dead on right. If I give him the benefit of the doubt and ignore my instincts I end up getting hurt out of it and made the fool of. He considers this stuff as "joking around" and not a big deal. Now that I know what he is thinking and his general motive behind things I say no to a lot of little stupid things he wants me to do for his entertainment that makes me feel rediculous. I guess the reason I explained this is because he always has expectations from me. And really the main things he thinks about is himself and his penis. I could go into this more... but I backspaced it... it's like a whole other topic I guess. 

I appreciate that you are suggesting that we can fix our relationship. It seems to me impossible to rekindle something that was never there to begin with. The love hasn't gone away and gotten crowded out with resentment. However I won't deny that resentment is there on both of our parts. I have LOTS of resentment for tons of different things honestly. His only resentment of me is that I will not give him oral sex and I don't like that he thinks he should be able to go out to bars drinking and leave me at home alone with the children all the time. Every fight we ever have... are based upon those two feelings for him right there.... the really big fights we have... where he denies me sleep til the wee hours of the morning is bubbling up to those two things right there. Sure I could fix this by giving him the blow jobs he desires most. Sure I could say go ahead go out with your friends I don't care. The reality of it though is that I won't give him oral sex because that's all he cares about, his penis and himself, and because I don't love him, and because his hygiene isn't even moderately good. Because he says he loves me but he wants me to do for him what he knows I wish not to do. 

Just recently he has gone out with his brother and his brother's friend. I was furious. They were gone for 6 hours. When they came home my husband wasn't drunk. He had a couple of beers. He wanted to be though and couldn't because someone had to be responsible. The other two got so drunk he had to carry one around the streets and the other disappeared and took a cab home. His brother has a ton of health problems and shouldn't be drinking at all. Let alone drunk to the point of not being able to stand. My husband is the big brother and he allowed him to do this to himself instead of cutting him off. After this point though.... I've just decided that I don't care anymore. I've told him as much. I don't care if he goes out drinking. 

I think it sucks that he leaves me at home to do the wifely thing and I never get to go out anywhere. That is not my life style though. I don't care about drinking. If he goes to the store and wants someone to go with him he always invites his brother, who lives with us, instead of me. I've talked with him about this. He'd rather hang out with his brother all the time but can't stand him in the same breath. I don't completely understand it. He puts his brother down all the time. When either one of them leave the house they have to have someone go with them. They don't like leaving and being by themselves. His brother lives with us because he doesn't like being by himself. If he comes home and we're not here he goes to his mom's house because he hates to be alone. 

I dunno they're the same person I guess. I have been in this relationship for 7 years now. The majority of them I have felt this way. As time goes by the worse I feel about things. I've put up with it this long... What's a couple more decades? 

What I'll say for my husband is that he has tried to change things for me. He resents me because he thinks I am unwilling to try to change things. I have tried changing things with the oral sex and giving it to him more and when I slowed down doing it all he could say is that I never did it for him. There is so much resentment built up around that, that I shake with rage while doing it and have all I can do to keep from biting it. This last time when he fought with me til 5:30 in the morning and kept denying me sleep was simply because he wanted one and I didn't want to give it to him. Because of this all these nasty little things come out. When he is mad at me he is cruel and wants to hurt me with words and denying me sleep. I got so damn fed up with him that I threw him on his back ripped his underwear off pinned him down and against his objections because he didn't want it like this... gave him what he wanted so he'd leave me the hell alone... and it wasn't nice or gentle at all. I seethed and spat at him that I hated him the whole time. I was crying.... and shaking with rage. In the end he reached his point. Then after the fact felt guilty about pushing me so far. Had the nerve to come out to the living room where I decided I was going to sleep so I could be away from him, to beg me to come lay next to him in bed. To hell with him. He got what he wanted and that's all he cares about. I am sorry.. I have a lot of resentment. Guess I'll stop here for now and await your reply.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Your relationship is unhealthy in that you are abusing each other, but you still sound like you have something there that could be developed. You said he has said he "would do anything for you".

Well, you could ask him if he is interested in working on having a better relationship. You could tell him everything is up for discussion, but it's going to be all about negotiation - ask him that and let it sink in. If he asks what your list of demands are, tell him you are have not even got round to asking yourself that yet because you need his answer first.

If he says yes, tell him you will get back to him. Never ever make policy on the hoof. 

On the other hand, I am not saying you should stay with him, just that if you do, you might as well make it the best you can.

I like that you give as good as you get, but I don't think I would want to upset you


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

Thank you once again for some more sound advice MarkTwain. I really do appreciate it. You have given me much to think about and have broadened my options far more than what I had been thinking of. It is true that our relationship is unhealthy. I can only hope that things will work out no matter which path I choose. 

Thank you very much for your time and effort I have been very satisfied with your advice and the lengths you have gone to in order to help. Happy Holidays to you.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove-

Well, if you decide to make him the offer I suggested, let us know his reaction. Interesting stuff!


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

Well I'm back, I hope you're still out there somewhere MarkTwain. 

I was going to update sooner but felt I couldn't so I am going to anyway. My last post was on New Years eve. That night we fought. He was mad and mopey because he was sitting at home with his family and not out doing anything fun. He was upset because anyone he could have hung out with at our house already had plans and he never asked them or set up a party or anything. The last few years that I can remember we celebrated it the same way. I told him he could have gone out with one of his friends. His family went to church that evening. He wasn't interested in spending NYE at church. He wanted it to be in a bar drinking. My husband once had faith in God but no longer does. So any offer he has to go to church he turns down. When we had gone to bed that night I fought to stay awake. He wanted to talk about everything. He was in an awful mood and was taking it out on me. So really he just wanted me to know he was moody which was evident. After a few hours of going in circles he got up and went to have a cigarette. I fell asleep on the bed. He came back in and was just livid that I had fallen asleep and from this point on he started the sleep deprivation. He kept waking me up. He did this until I couldn't sleep anymore. We fought about the only two things we ever fight about. His lack of a social life and not going out to bars and the fact that he never gets oral sex. I got everything off my chest though. Everything I had been holding back for fear of hurting him. He knows that I am not in love with him. I have been honest about everything. I have pointed out the fact that he punishes me if he doesn't get what he wants and that he's needy and childish. He was horny that night and he wasn't going to quit til he got what he wanted. Yet again... I gave it to him. He finally fell asleep right after that. I was now free to go to sleep. He said since he kept me up til 6a.m. that he'd get up with the children who'd be waking up in about an hour and a half. When they awoke it was I who threw myself out of bed to get up with them. He wouldn't. He slept until noon. 

The next few days after this were total hell. He did nothing but mope around the house in a complete depressed state. He has pushed me away from him and he knows this. I avoid going to bed with him at the same time he does because I don't like the stress and pressure he puts on me regarding sex so I stay on my computer. I usually go to bed around 3 in the morning. I play games and socialize with my online friends (the only friends I have). He is mad that I choose the computer over him. He doesn't feel wanted. He isn't wanted. We've had many arguments ending in the same manner. It's always that he has these dirty thoughts of me and when they don't come through he gets extremely disappointed and can't help how he acts. Two nights ago he was very horny again. The night before that I pursued him. I gave him what I thought he wanted. The next night he told me he wished I hadn't because it made him even hornier. We argued and argued about it but in a calm way. More like talked about it I guess. But I told him he's beating a dead horse with a stick. It's the same thing over and over again. That there's so much more to marriage than just sex. I stayed upstairs with him away from my computer for the entire day. He did nothing but mope. Kept saying he wanted to do something but he didn't know what. I gave suggestions of things we could do together and he said no to all of it. He said he was miserable and was glad he was because it'd give him a reason for just slunking around on the couch. By around 8pm or so I had enough of it again. We had been in our room talking and he went outside again to smoke. I got my blanket and went downstairs. I was sick of him bringing me down. I don't want to feel like I have to give him my undivided attention at all times while I'm awake. This totally pissed him off and he stayed upstairs for a while. He eventually came downstairs and joined a game I was playing. He proceeded to make the game not fun for everyone. He changed his name to reflect that he hated the name of the game and continued to do things he shouldn't repeatedly. I ended up quitting the game so the other people could go on enjoying it. I just sat here at my computer. I was looking for marriage counselors under our insurance. He agreed to go to one with me. I told him if he didn't we were done. He was aggravated still that I wanted to be downstairs so he set a program up on his computer that, when launched, disconnects us from the internet momentarily because we have a router issue. He turned this program on to continually reconnect and then changed his password on his desktop and walked away so no one could use the internet. This plan didn't work and his computer was not locked so we were able to turn it off. While upstairs he used his phone to access our router and disconnect us as well. When I say us I mean there are 4 of us using the computers at this house. All of us are gamers. My brother in law and his friend both have to put up with this as well. He came back downstairs eventually with a snide malicious voice telling me that I was just mad because he was messing with my game earlier. And then started bragging that he could turn off the internet when ever and doesn't care. At about this point I had enough. I put my shoes on, went upstairs. Grabbed the keys. He came up the stairs knowing what I was about to do. He asked me where I was going. I said I was going for a walk. He asked if I wanted him to come with me I said no. I got my purse and he asked where I was going at 2 oclock in the morning. I just kept walking. Got in the car and took off. I hung out in a parking lot at 24 hour store for 3 hours in 44 degree temperatures. I knew I could have rented a hotel if I wanted to. I thought about it. I wanted him to see what it would be like if I wasn't there. I wasn't going to go home until the afternoon after he had to take care of the kids by himself. He kept calling me and messaging me and leaving voice mails telling me that he was sorry and worried and for me to please come home. I messaged him back after 2 and a half hours to let him know that I was not at a hotel but that I was okay. From that point on we talked. He had been talking with his brother for a few hours I guess about our problems. What he had told him had everything to do with the computer and how much I use it. I'll admit I am on it all the time. I also have nothing else to do. It is my choice to be on it. He chooses to use his computer over taking his kids to a park and playing and will not go outside to watch them play with me or instead of me. When I am outside mowing the lawn he is in here playing his game. He is upset because I don't go to bed at a "decent hour." Who is he to decide what a decent hour is? I came home that night and he said he understands where I am coming from now. I told him he demands my attention more than the children do. That between the 4 of them my attention is being demanded all the time. I don't want to give him the attention he demands from me because it's always sexual... always. I do not love him. 

Last night when I went to bed I tried to make sure it was a "decent hour" So I went to bed at 11:30. It was still after he had gone to bed and he was sleeping. My gripe is what the hell does he care what time I go to bed if he is sleeping anyway? He says he just wants me there to be next to him. He says that he totally loves me in every way. His stomach has the warm fuzzies and his heart races and all he can think about is being inside me. He wants to consume me. I have never had these feelings for him ever. I just recently experienced these kinds of feelings. If you recall from my first post. I didn't know they existed until just recently and they are not for him. Last night when I went to bed I had to wake him up and move him over. He lays across the bed so I have to wake him up so he can look at the clock. I made a point in telling him it was 11:30 and the fun was just about to begin but I was there with him like he wants me to be. I laid there watching tv for a long time. He laid there groping me and rubbing me the whole time. He started telling me that he couldn't help it and that I was just so sexy and he loves me so much. I told him that I was sad that I can never lay in bed next to him and just cuddle and not watch tv with out it having to end in sex. He kept kissing me and said he couldn't sleep. He had to get up for work at 6 in the morning and it was already past 1 am. I was feeling pressured again. I felt expected to do this for him. In the end I gave it to him again. Even though I very much didn't want to. He took it. It lasted a very long long time with him savoring the slightest movement. Which is the way it always is. He barely moves and it's this fantastic thing for him. I have to wonder if I am incapable of enjoying sex at all? With anybody? Or is it that he and I just are not compatible? Anyway he finished and then told me he was sorry. And was hoping that he didn't push me away any further and make me hate him anymore. He also said that I should just come to bed late so I can come to him when I actually want it from him and give me some time to heal. I dunno this is such a messed up relationship in my opinion. I feel so empty inside. I don't feel anything he feels at all. He wants to be up in my face constantly kissing me and I just want him to leave me alone. 

I don't know what to do.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I am thinking over you last post, all very interesting. 



wheresthelove said:


> Two nights ago he was very horny again. The night before that I pursued him. I gave him what I thought he wanted.


For now can you explain the above, are you saying that on this occasion you actually wanted sex?


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

No I didn't.. but I wanted to be giving and pleasing to him. I wanted to make him happy. So I offered myself. Got undressed infront of him which I don't like doing because I am self conscious. Got in bed and just let things go where they were gonna.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove said:


> No I didn't.. but I wanted to be giving and pleasing to him. I wanted to make him happy.


Why? Do you actually love him?


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

I have a lot of resentment and contempt for him. I care about him... I am not in love with him though? I know this for a fact. I do want to see him happy though. I am not a cruel person. I care about his happiness. I don't want him angry and upset or depressed.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove-

OK, I have slept on your post now, I have some ideas.

I believe that under all the chaos, you actually love your husband. The reason you don't feel the love is that he treats you like a dog. Your resentment towards him is huge, and quite understandable. You can't expect to have warm fuzzy feelings when he treats you this way. However, as we have seen, you can give as good as you get, so it's not a one way street.

Instead of getting into another situation with your online fancyman, you should probably give this marriage your best shot first. If you took charge, you could have him behaving like a gentleman, and I believe you could fall in love. Your online fancyman might be no better than your husband. I bet hubby was exciting when you first met him online. It's the things you don't know that get you in the end with online liaisons. You did not know hubby would deprive you of sleep. What secrets is the new guy waiting to let loose on you?

Your whole relationship and life style could benefit form a tune-up. So if you are interested, I can give you my view of how you could achieve this. But you must decide what you want first.


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

Some good advice. You're probably right in saying that under all the chaos there's still love. I will still honestly tell you before my husband treated me this way including when we were separated by computers I never felt for him the same way I feel for my online "fancyman". I can tell you right now that my lifestyle is nothing like the fancyman's and I don't see that ever coming to be. However I can not help the feelings I have for him. We are two entirely differently people. 

It has been a long journey with my husband and I have been thinking about how fortunate I have been to find someone with similar interests as I have and the same sort of morals and standards as I have. I believe with a lot of hard work we might be able to salvage it. My husband is willing to. He feels really upset that he has pushed me so far. I am willing to work on this relationship. 

I really feel like you can't help who you fall in love with. And I believe it's possible to have feelings for more than one person. However they shouldn't necessarily be shared. It's kind of like having a secret crush on someone but not being in a position to reveal it to them. With that being said I cherish these feelings I have felt for my "fancyman" but will do my best not to compare and make my husband live up to them. By the way my "fancyman" has been giving me advice regarding this as well. He is putting me and my marriage first. Never once has he tried to get me to leave him. Rather he finds links to hook me up with advice and he gives me really sound advice himself. He is a caring man. I appreciate him. 

Please tell me how do I go on?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

These days, I am against telling people what they should do, but as you have asked 3 times...

This is my plan. If you execute it, you must do it all, you can't pick and choose!

First some observations:

1) His sleep deprivation tactics are a total abuse, it has to stop. No ifs buts or ands.

2) My wife read your thread and noticed that in waiting up to 3am to avoid him, you are depriving yourself of sleep. So these two things are two sides of the same coin.

3) He can't expect BJs if he is not clean.

4) Your lifestyle could be a little healthier... 

Fortunately as he is sex mad, you can have him eating out of the palm of your hand if you want. I am also sex mad, so in writing this I am thinking about what would motivate me.

Tell him that you want to improve the relationship, and in particular have better sex. That should get his attention. If it does not, simply wait for another time and say it again.

When he is all ears... you can proceed.

Tell him you will do him a deal. If he treats you better, you will be delighted to have more and better sex.

If you still have his attention, tell him this:

You will stop going to bed late to avoid him, and have more sex, but he is never to do the sleep deprivation thing again, or it's no sex that night, or for two nights, maybe longer if he persists.

I'm not sure if you are going to allow him the occasional BJ, but if you do, he needs to shower first, no excuses.

You should think of a few things he can do to make you feel cherished, and tell him clearly what they are. I know it would be nicer if he used telepathy, but it ain't going to happen.

Ask him what makes him feel loved - but I think I can guess 

I think you both need to discuss how much time you spend online, and agree to cut it back if needs be.

*If you are going to execute this plan, you must be firm with the consequences. Getting your sleep back on track will make you feel like a new woman.
*

Get his full agreement to everything. Maybe even write down some bullet points.

I'm sorry this idea is so sex based, but sex does seem to figure a lot in your relationship. I think if he made you feel like a princess you would fancy him a lot more.

Let me know what you decide to do.

By the way, does he know about the online guy?


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

This seems like a good plan. The more he craves and wants attention the less I want to give it to him. He's very immature in the way he approaches me and what not. I have no desire to have sex with him. Aside from it not doing anything for me I am also never turned on. Hopefully we can work on this. Honestly the thought of bj makes me feel rage. I don't know that I could ever do this for fear of losing my own self control. That one needs time to heal for sure. 

No he doesn't know about the online guy. I am not out to hurt him or ruin our relationship. I have no plans of meeting this man. As it stands I have deep feelings for him because he was there for me to help me and he made me feel incredibly good about myself which is an extreme rarity. He also radiates masculinity and sexiness without even knowing it. My husband is really feminine and needy. I almost can't help my attraction to this other guy. I know that I need to refocus myself though and start working on my real life. I understand I am depriving myself of sleep to a degree but it's the only me time I get. I get about six hours of sleep.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove said:


> The more he craves and wants attention the less I want to give it to him. He's very immature in the way he approaches me and what not.


The trouble is you have a chicken and egg here. You avoid him, he gets frustrated, he comes on too strong, so you avoid him. Plus he keeps you awake because you avoid him.



wheresthelove said:


> I have no desire to have sex with him. Aside from it not doing anything for me I am also never turned on.


Is that absolutly true? I get the feeling there is a spark buried deep down... You come across as a very powerful and sexy woman. The fact that you lost a baby and you're still fighting fit impresses me no end.

You need to train your man up. Others would disagree, but I see no harm in you fantasising about x,y and z while you have sex if it gets you hot.

My wife fantasises that I am different people, or that I am not even me! I used to want to know the details, but now I only want to know if she is enjoying herself. How could I possibly understand what goes on in a woman's head anyhow - it's far too complicated 

I just wanted to touch on the sleep deprivation thing. You must be firm on not giving him sex if he does this. This is not using sex as a weapon, it refusing to reward bad behaviour with his "little bag of sweets". Having said that, you must make plenty of occasions when he *can* have sex, or he is going to be grumpy.

You say he initiates in an immature way. Perhaps you could give him some tips in a positive way. "Honey, I much prefer it when you..."

As for BJs... It's your resentment of him that makes you feel that way. He needs to earn your respect.

He can do it, but you need to lay out the ground rules.

Is he intelligent?


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

He is very intelligent and has a good career. He often uses that to belittle people sometimes. I have told him how I don't like him making me feel stupid and inferior. This is one thing he worked on and changed. 

I honestly think with the advice you have given me and his willingness to work on it we're going to be ok. Thank you. Will keep you informed.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove said:


> I honestly think with the advice you have given me and his willingness to work on it we're going to be ok. Thank you. Will keep you informed.


Wow, I'm impressed. 

If you imagine your enjoyment of him as a graph, that line is low right now. Don't expect it to go straight to "high" in one go. There are going to be peaks and troughs. For instance, the sleep deprivation may not stop all at once - you have both got into a crazy dynamic - but you can still move in the right direction, and little by little, it will get better. With your can-do personality, I can't see how you can fail.

Phase one starts with simply talking to him and getting his agreement. Let us know how that goes. His reaction is crucial. If you don't get the "right" feedback, you might have to spend longer on the pre-agreement stage.


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

*Calling Mr. MarkTwain*

It has been a very long time sir, but I am back. I don't know if you're still out there helping countless relationships as they pop up or not so I am posting hoping you, in particular MarkTwain, might read it. I appreciate any advice I get from anyone though. 

I have tried your suggestions you have given me. It has been a very long time since my last post I can't remember all the details from back then. All I know is that things have remained the same and progressively gotten worse. 

There was another instance where he was trying to force me into giving him oral. I did and spat it back at him... this was a while after our last post. After many fights regarding this he says that he understands why I can't do it and he feels like such an a-hole for making me do these things. He just wants me to know how important it is to him and that while he has to go with out it he wants to make sure that I never forget it's what he desires most. 

That aside this is much, much bigger of a problem now. I continually avoid him like the plague. We have talked about everything. I had said before that he knows I don't love him. I have threatened him and put the stops to the sleep deprivation or so I thought. He will still do it to me if he is sexually frustrated and not getting what he wants. Our entire problem to our whole relationship is his aggressive need for sex and the punishment he puts me through for not giving it to him. To kind of illustrate how badly this problem is for him... the best example I can give is one night my children were sick and I was cleaning up their vomit.... I too felt like i was going to vomit. He had this uncontrollable need to have sex with me and I snapped at him that I didn't feel good and just finished cleaning up puke and that he needs to leave me alone and the night didn't end til he got what he wanted. 

He's been going out to bars with his friends by himself. His mother helped us to realize that I wasn't mad that he was going out to bars necessarily, more than I was mad that he was always leaving me behind and never taking me out. He changed this. He started including me and inviting me to go out with his friends/co-workers and got a babysitter for the kids. We went out a couple of times. Every time we went out it was to the same bar with the same people. My gripe now (I guess I am never satisfied) is that he doesn't take just ME out to an environment that I would actually enjoy. He's tried taking me out one time and again ... it was just him and I at the same bar.. the same place. We had a terrible time. We sat there with nothing to say to each other. Nothing in common. I can not drink alcoholic beverages. I really don't have that much desire to anyway. I take blood thinners for a blood clotting disorder that I have so there is really no desire for me to be in an environment like that. He says he likes to take me to places like that. He sees the woman he loves, I am happy and smiling. I told him why doesn't he try taking me to a place where he can actually see me? Possibly hear me? Where we can enjoy each other rather than me staring at the back of his head for an hour while he socializes with his friends and I sit there people watching. This particular night ended up with him and all of his friends drunk and I was babysitting all of them. They picked up some stray drunk guy on the street and was wanting me to bring him with us in our van. I absolutely wouldn't do it. I got bad vibes from this guy. One minute he acted completely fine and the next minute he seemed dramatically sloshed! 

I've always thought that I just don't love him but you were able to bring to light that because of his treatment of me is the reason why any feelings I could possibly have for him are very well done and buried somewhere at some unknown depth. The main problem I have with him is the sexual frustration, the sleep deprivation, the punishment I get if I am not able or willing to have sex with him. It should come to no surprise that I want nothing to do with him now. 

I have brought up divorce with him. I am very much there. As close to it as I can be with out actually pursuing it but it's right there. I am not threatening this. I am actually a few steps away from it. He's been going out on the town with his friends and staying out for 8 and a half hours after work doing who knows what. He doesn't see his children for the entire day. He thinks that it's once in a while and it's no big deal. That I have no reason to be as upset as I am. That I sit downstairs on the computer playing with my friends so he should be able to go out and hang out with his friends and that it very much is the same scenario. He leaves me here with no car.... when he does this. I have barely enough food in my freezer for 2 meals. I am fortunate to have any food. 

I had started to talk to his mom a little bit. I didn't go into deep detail about what our major problems were but that we were struggling and stressed and I wasn't sure we were going to make it. She was giving me tidbits of advice with out knowing what the problem was. This past weekend my husband was feeling sexually frustrated again... Basically I had started my period and he expects me to do things for him while I am having my periods. Things that probably wouldn't be a problem if I actually loved him. He wants to have sex with me regardless of my period. I will not do it. I take blood thinners. I am completely uncomfortable with the whole thing and well I am sorry but he will just have to wait. He knows that. He counts my period. He knows when I am going to start it and he tries to get it in as many times as he can before I have my period. So as we laid in bed this past weekend he was moving my hand so I could rub him but I didn't want to. So I moved my hand back. He moved it again and asked me to do this for him and I guess I was kind of like *sigh fine*. I gave him what he wanted but now he is mad because he knows it's against my will. He was hoping to have sex with me again when I didn't want to have it. The kids were up and running around the house. My 10 year old is special needs, and I have a 3 and 4 year old. It was time to get up and take care of the kids. 

He is now sexually frustrated. He's mopey and mad. He came in and laid on the bed while I was gathering laundry in the baskets to take downstairs and wash. He laid there watching me the whole time. Didn't help and didn't offer to bring the baskets down for me especially because I wouldn't give him what he wanted. I went downstairs to start the laundry. In between the couple of loads I was doing I sat down at my computer and played a game. Put the clothes in the dryer and heard him freaking out on the kids. I went upstairs to find out why he was so angry and he said he was just frustrated. I was like okay fine. So I stayed upstairs and sat on the couch. The whole time I sat there he stared at me seething almost as if to burn a hole through me. I told him to knock it off. He kept doing it. I told him I wasn't about to just sit there and let him stare at me and be all moody with me. I got looking at the toys all over my living room and the toy bucket that was practically empty but there were too many toys to fit in it anyway. I've been wanting to do this for a long while so I went through and weeded out the broken toys and the ones they don't play with to make room for the ones they do and the less I have to clean up. He doesn't want me to clean in anyway when he is at home because he doesn't want to help me. He tries talking me out of doing any cleaning when he's around which makes me fall behind. He said he was mad at me for doing that. I was like why are you mad at me for cleaning out the toys? It needs to be done. You're sitting there doing what you want to do and I currently have the ambition to you so why does it matter to you if I am cleaning out the toys? Well it just did apparently. He was mad about not having sex and he wanted me to know it. Once I took the old toys downstairs and put them in the garage I went into the laundry room and started folding laundry. Kids were running and playing upstairs and screaming and having a grand old time. Next thing I know he screamed at them at the top of his lungs to stop focusing almost all of his anger and frustration at my 4 year old daughter. She was terribly upset crying uncontrollably so I had her come downstairs with me. She felt really bad and kept apologizing and saying that she was just... just.... I tried soothing her and calming her down. While I was very angry with him I knew he was upset and frustrated and that's why he did it. So I told her to stay downstairs with me and it wasn't her fault. A little later goes by. I'm upstairs. On the couch. By this time he is apologizing to me and apologized to her and said that he shouldn't be acting that way. Well I guess I did something wrong by agreeing with him. He went from being fine and playing with his iPhone to being frustrated and moody again. I had told the children to pick up the toys and put them in the bucket. My 10 year old was the only one doing it. My toddlers wanted to sit down on my lap and hang out. I would have made them get down and do what I asked them to do but I was kind of trailed off and lost in my own world of thoughts. He got up off the couch and once again screamed at the top of his lungs to pick up the toys and once again directed ALL of his anger and rage at my daughter. I was done. 

He stormed off to go outside and smoke. I locked the door while he was out there and proceeded to make lunch. He saw me do it so he came running to the door to demand why. I wouldn't speak to him. He was kind of like what ever. He sat down on the deck and smoked. When he was done he came over to the glass sliding door knocking on it continually apparently thinking I wouldn't let him back in the house. I had every intention of letting him back in. I walked over and unlocked the door. He came in and demanded to know why I locked the door. I wouldn't speak to him. He started saying mean things to me trying to provoke me into speaking to him. I just ignored him. This angered him even more. He started to pace. He opened the refrigerator door and slammed it closed as hard as he could and stormed off to the bedroom. I stood there finishing up making lunch. I got out just enough plates and forks for me and the children. I served them an sat them up. I sat down with my plate. He comes over and says can I eat this too?? Really snotty and snide. I didn't reply to him. He opened the fridge to get a drink and he goes "uhh I broke your fridge." I broke my silence long enough to tell him "Not my fridge you broke, it's the land ladies." We are renting a 5 bedroom house. He sat there trying to fix the refrigerator. When he was done with that he walked to the table and demanded to know if I was going to speak to him. I said nothing. He grabbed his lunch and stormed off to the bedroom to eat it and shut and locked the door. This was good for me. Gave me the time with out him watching for me to gather up clothes and get my kids dressed and ready and grab the car keys. He panics when I do this and tries to stop me. Once he came out of the bedroom and found out that I was going to be leaving the panic started and he was hunting for the car keys and took my money and was doing anything he could think of to stop me. I had to go downstairs and get a few more clothes. He sat on the stairs not allowing me to pass. I tried pushing by him and he was trying to stop me. I walked right over him and forced my way over him. I went up the stairs and as I got to the second landing he screamed and started coming up behind me like a freight train. I turned around waiting for impact that wasn't going to happen. I stared him down and dared him to do something to me that would give me some good reason to injure his man junk so he could never feel anything there ever again. No physical contact was made by either of us and I continued up the stairs gathering what I needed to leave. He demanded to know if he was invited and if he could come along too? He went and got dressed and ready. Takes me much longer dealing with 3 kids. I would have liked to have left with out him. The children were scared and wanted him to come with us. I would speak to them but not him. I was like fine. So he got in the car as I was driving off and I had no idea where I was going to go. I didn't know what I was going to do. I just knew I had to get away. 

I started driving and I ended up driving towards his mom's house. With out any thought and not knowing how anything was going to happen I pulled up in front of his mom's house while they were outside painting and I got out of the car and slammed the door and walked up to his mom right in front of him while he sat in the car with his window rolled down and very clearly stated that I wanted a divorce or a separation and I needed her help to make it happen. His instant reaction was shock and hurt that I did this to him in front of his mom. I went inside her house and I cried and cried and had my little breakdown. The kids went off with their aunt to go play. I spilled my guts out to them. Told them everything. The sleep deprivation. The constant demand for sex. The fact that I don't love him or even like him anymore. 

I don't know what is wrong with me but I am still holding on to this failed marriage. I don't require a lot of things and I don't know what it takes to fix this if it is even possible. He has actually contacted marriage/sex counselors to get us set up with counseling and repairing our marriage. I can't give up with out saying I tried. His mom has pointed out that through all of the times that I have been saying no.. that no means no whether we have a wedding band or not. He has basically turned me into a rape victim. While I don't know that I would go to the length of calling it rape because I was giving in so he'd leave me alone? I definitely feel like a victim. I feel violated. 

His mom has suggested that the sex has got to stop. He has to stop throwing his tantrums and he has to go with out and connect with me and realize that it isn't about the sex that it's about us. That we need to focus on reconnecting and starting over and getting to know each other again and learn to love each other before there can be any sex. So that is what we've done. We've cut sex out and worked on being able to be near each other and appreciate each other. It's not working though. Because he can't keep his hands off my boobs. When I fall asleep he's rubbing where he shouldn't be causing me to wake up and yell at him to not touch me there. The night after this huge revelation he was pushing towards rubbing me there. It's like why the hell don't you get it?! 

Last night............. He had some pot luck off site work field trip thing. Instead of working they all went and had fun. It's like a required every few months thing or something like that. At 6 pm he told me he was sorry that he didn't have his car and that he had gotten a ride with his boss to where ever he was and he'd be home soon. I replied to him that I didn't even know he was out doing that because I had forgotten about it. That there wasn't much food here for the kids to eat but that I'd find something. I needed to go to the store. I felt upset that he was out and I had dinner planned and now it seemed much harder to scrounge something up that wasn't as much as a full dinner would have been and wasteful because it would have been thrown away. I wanted to make dinner for him. 8pm rolls around. I was putting my toddlers to bed. I get a phone call from him.. he's laughing and snickering and says that he's at his friends house and that he'd be home many hours later. I knew at that point that he sounded high possibly been drinking. At that very moment I felt instantly hurt and told him not to bother coming home. 

I felt so much hurt inside and I didn't know what to do. I just needed someone to talk to. I called his mom. Why not? She now knew everything that was going on. I needed advice and wanted to know if I was in the wrong? I was shocked when she said that she wanted to call him and go get him. NO NO NO he would hate me for that. He's a man and doesn't need his mom to come retrieve him from a party like a teenager. I tried talking her out of it. She talked with me on the phone for an hour and a half and was giving me advice and telling me how she thinks we can fix this and that we both love each other and that he's being stupid and shouldn't be acting like this and needs to grow up. 

The end result is 5 of his family members went to go pick him up, then go find his car, and drive him and his car home. All the while his mom was talking to him about all of this. It was a work night. He wanted to sit down and talk to me. I wanted him to be completely sober. He insisted that he was. We talked for a long time. He apologized AGAIN for everything that he was doing and he never meant for me to receive what he perceived as showing me love as something that was terrible to me. He said that he basically turned me into a rape victim and he's sorry. We went and laid down in bed finally and there was his hand on my boob. I said to him "You're hand probably shouldn't be there" and he didn't remove it. He kept trying to pull my shirt up so he could see me. I wouldn't let him. He started rubbing my lower belly saying he liked the way my undies felt. Every time he'd rub back and forth his hand would dip lower touching me down there. I made him stop. He says that it makes him feel good inside to make me feel good and that all he wanted to do or was trying to do was make me feel good. That no reciprocation was necessary at all. 

This no sex thing isn't going to work out for him and he is going to continually screw it up. I don't know if it's the right thing to do or not. All I know is that I don't know anything anymore and the only one thing I am completely and absolutely certain of is that I absolutely will NOT live like this anymore! I am still 100% willing to try to fix it but if it doesn't get fixed I'm checking out. 

While reading this over and correcting typos and what not his mom called me. She wanted to know if things were any better today. All the while she was talking to me she was driving over to his work. She is taking him out to lunch. She wants to talk to him about all of this. She is trying to dig to the root of our problem and recognizes that I don't even like him anymore. She is trying to find out from the both of us if we are still in this or if we are just done. She says that she wants to sit down one day this week for lunch with me also. So we can talk about it. She has pointed out my options. She wants to know if I would move back to the east coast to be with my parents. I said no. She wants to know if I would move in with my brother who is now living in the same state as I am. I said no. So she says I can stay with family or a friend of the family who needs a room mate. I am now regretting involving her because while she means well and she is very much trying to help us with our problem she is NOT a professional counselor and she is very much trying to take on that roll it seems. 

I don't know maybe it coming to an end once and for all is for the best but I'm scared and I don't know that it's the right thing to do or if there is a tiny thread still salvageable. My husband is a very good speaker. I feel like we are nearing the end now.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Why do you want to continue to subject yourself to this? What more do you need to try -- YOU have been mistreated and abused and IMO, sexually assaulted.

Run from this man and take your children. His mother may be on your side but so what? She doesn't live with him. She doesn't take care of you, either.

He's a really sick, mean and nasty person. 

Move on. You don't need to prove anything to anyone. And if anyone thinks you're wrong for leaving, just have them read your last post.


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## alwaysalone (Nov 17, 2007)

WOW! I thought I had it bad, my husband has certain qualities that your husband has. And it hurts like hell. We can't change them, we have to either ignore, fight them, or leave them. 

I have no advise in this situation due to having my own problematic husband but I wish us both the best of luck!


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## mae (Aug 17, 2009)

There is nothing left to salvage, this man is crazy and needs serious help. It's probably only going to get worse and will probably go into physical abuse. This isn't a safe environment for your children. I know it's scary but you know what's best for you and your children.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove-

OK, I only just read your last post. Are you still around?


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> wheresthelove-
> 
> OK, I only just read your last post. Are you still around?


Yes I am still here MarkTwain. I am aware that you have been in contact with my husband and that he in fact sought you out and gave you links to both of our threads. He and I are also both fully aware of each others threads and know how each other feel about everything. We are currently seeking counseling as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Brilliant reply Sir. You nailed life in 500 words or less, congratulations Mr. Twain. "This is our life. Most of it is going on in our heads. Master the head - master life." Well said indeed!


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

wheresthelove said:


> Yes I am still here MarkTwain. I am aware that you have been in contact with my husband and that he in fact sought you out and gave you links to both of our threads. He and I are also both fully aware of each others threads and know how each other feel about everything. We are currently seeking counseling as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi,

I replied to your husband. I must say I always wondered what happened to you. I gave you some detailed suggestions, but you never wrote back to say if you tried them, or what effect they had.

I think the pair of you could come out of this very much stronger as individuals, with broader horizons and more compassion for your fellow human beings.

You both could, if you choose, use this energy to re-invest in your own marriage. On the other hand, you could just decide it's too much water under the bridge. To me, that would be an illusion - someone who has erred but has learned his lesson is worth 10 of someone who has never sinned, and never repented.

You must also refrain form milking the role of the victim too much. It true that your husband's behaviour was outrageous, but your seeking solace in another man did not make the situation any better.

I have to tell you, I am not on your husband's side, but neither am I on yours. I am only interested in the truth. The truth is that you and your husband could make each other very happy indeed - spiritually, emotionally, sexually. But only when you have both quite being silly.

Don't let him do all the work making amends. The most successful couples are the ones that trip over each other to be the most loving. If my wife makes me a cup of tea, I make her two cups.

My signature on here used to say, "Never give in to mediocrity, Never". If you can't throw yourself into life, and into marriage, you are wasting your time and your life.

If you catch your husband spending one minute thinking about your welfare and happiness, you should outdo him, by spending two minutes. And visa-versa. Then when you go to bed at night you can both sleep the sleep of the righteous, knowing that you did everything you could to save your marriage, and each other, and yourselves. 

For that reason, I must ask you to drop the other guy. He has served his purpose. I'm not judging you, I'm only telling you what will work and what won't work.


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> I replied to your husband. I must say I always wondered what happened to you. I gave you some detailed suggestions, but you never wrote back to say if you tried them, or what effect they had.


Yes you did give me detailed suggestions/instructions and I was there desperately seeking your advice and help needing SOMETHING that could fix the misery I was stuck in. The problem with your advice MarkTwain, which after having left this forum to come back later I realized, was that all of your suggestions were focusing on making deals and bargains with my husband to give him what he wanted and have him eating out of the palm of my hand. I have not now, nor have I ever been a controlling wife and I do not NOW nor will I ever want my husband eating out of the palm of my hand and figuratively speaking where we are in our lives at this very moment I could pretty much say that he is there right now and I will not take advantage of that. 

The advice you were giving me was to train up my man and make him act like a gentlemen but that I'd have to be willing to give in and give him the oral sex or sex in general that he was seeking. The advice you gave me would have been fine if it were tailored to a couple who were in love with each other and not in an abusive relationship. Your advice would have been executable if my husband wasn't so unaware of his short comings that he would have taken everything for granted and expected more and continued to throw tantrums and deny me sleep or spend the day making life total hell for everyone if he didn't get what he wanted. Your advice would have fed my husbands sexual need and NOT taught him or shown him how to SHOW me love and affection and learn how to give it out of love freely with zero expectations of any reciprocation of a sexual nature or even loving nature. 

My husband knows who he is and where he is at and recognizes that what he did was wrong. My husband is thankful because he realizes in himself (we have talked about this a few times now) that if this all hadn't happened as it had and I wasn't ready to divorce him that if I had just given in to him on that Saturday morning and gave him what he wanted we'd still be in the same spot. More importantly though our problems weren't just SEX. Our problems were his enormously self centered nature. His selfishness. His being used to getting what he wanted and knowing how to obtain it. Throwing tantrums if he didn't get what he wanted. He was used to getting what he wanted when he wanted it. Our problems were through out our entire marriage, not JUST in the bedroom. I explained that in my earlier posts. I explained why I didn't love him. He recognizes that in 7 years he wasn't showing me affection and love. He meant everything he told me he just never showed me. I did not just sit around and let all this sh*t happen to me. I very verbally in DETAIL through out the entire time of our relationship communicated what the problems were. For some reason he could hear it, acknowledge it but never change it, until it was too late. He is left here telling me that I tried to tell him but he just didn't get it, didn't listen. Regretting not hearing it when I'd tell him earlier on. 



MarkTwain said:


> someone who has erred but has learned his lesson is worth 10 of someone who has never sinned, and never repented.


Once again we already know what our options are. We have openly communicated about absolutely everything. I agree with your statement above. I see the immense value in my husbands character to be able to admit that he was wrong and be willing to face the judgments and reprimands head on and swallow that lump in his throat and keep pushing forward determined to make amends and fight for what he wants in a way that is foreign to him: Selflessly. 

As far as I am concerned most men would have possibly, sighed, shrugged, admitted failure and defeat and limped away licking their wounds unable and unwilling to face the music. 
My husband is genuinely remorseful and sticking through it to prove to me that he loves me the way he SAYS he does and is willing to show me by his ACTIONS instead of his empty words. 




MarkTwain said:


> *You must also refrain form milking the role of the victim too much*. It true that your husband's behaviour was outrageous, but your seeking solace in another man did not make the situation any better.


I take great offense to this Mr. MarkTwain. I am not milking the role of the victim, I AM THE VICTIM. I did not worsen my situation by SEEKING SOLACE in another man. I found a shoulder to cry on. Man or woman I needed help. I did not go out LOOKING for a MAN to replace my husband and have an emotional affair with. I found a friend. A friend who I confided in and who lifted my spirits and made me laugh in a time of desperation in my life. I found a friend who was the VERY first person to bring to my attention that what was happening to me can only be described as RAPE. I found a friend who was willing to put me before anything else and help me through some of the toughest times. A friend who put ME and my MARRIAGE first, who was willing to find links and websites for help, support and counseling. A FRIEND who I came to care about very deeply. Someone who I experienced intense feelings for that I didn't even know I possessed, someone who I came to love and admire and CHERISH for his selflessness, encouragement, reassurance and capacity to care about other people. 

What my husband did was "outrageous". My husband sexually abused me. My husband abused me with sleep deprivation. My husband manipulated me in every way to get what he wanted/needed. My husband was trying to control how I felt and when I felt it. My husband mentally and emotionally abused me. My husband was completely UNAWARE that he was doing this. My husband ADMITS to having DONE all of this! His OWN parents who love him dearly recognized and didn't dismiss the abuse and rescued me from a life that I can no longer deal with. I am mad as hell that this happened to me. I am mad at myself for being so STUPID to allow it to happen for SO LONG!!

What could I possibly be milking? I understand you're not accusing me of doing so and that you are merely throwing caution to the wind but I suppose you have riled me pretty well at this point so I feel the need to tell you that I CRY quite often completely ASHAMED of myself for having EMBARRASSED and as far as I am concerned HUMILIATED my husband publicly. I am ASHAMED and GUILTY for not loving my husband. I can not help how I feel. There is nothing I can do about it. 



MarkTwain said:


> I have to tell you, I am not on your husband's side, but neither am I on yours. I am only interested in the truth. The truth is that you and your husband could make each other very happy indeed - spiritually, emotionally, sexually. But only when you have both quite being silly.
> 
> Don't let him do all the work making amends. The most successful couples are the ones that trip over each other to be the most loving. If my wife makes me a cup of tea, I make her two cups.


Good advice once again for a loving couple. Unfortunately I have to say once again that this advice doesn't really sit well with our situation. Why? Because I believe I have nothing to work on and work towards? No! I don't just sit around letting him do all the work. I go out of my way to do something that I know is pleasing to him because I know he likes it. Whether or not I am necessarily comfortable with it really doesn't matter to me. I have spent a long time doing things I wasn't comfortable with. It is my way of life. I will do things for him because I know he wants them and it makes him happy. I am trying. However, he is the one who has the most work to do to make amends. He is the one who has to win me back. He is the one who has to show that he has changed as a person, not for me, but for himself. He has to show me that he can use actions to show me love and affection and not demand that I show him love by giving him sex when he wants it. Not demand of me what he knows I wish most not to do. He is courting me. We are starting over from the beginning and he has to earn my respect and my trust back and learn what it takes to make my heart rev up.



MarkTwain said:


> My signature on here used to say, "Never give in to mediocrity, Never". If you can't throw yourself into life, and into marriage, you are wasting your time and your life.


I spent 7 years throwing myself into this life and into this marriage. One of the things I said to his parents as they sat there on my couch trying to convince me that I wouldn't be crying as much as I was about all of this if there wasn't some love there for him somewhere and that it's going to take a hell of a lot of work to put back into this marriage if we are going to save it, was that I have spent a lot of time putting into this marriage trying to make it work. Why should I have to sit around and wait to see if it's going to work out? Why should I have to sit around and give him another chance and wait to see if he can earn my love back? Why do I have to wait on him instead of going out to find what I feel like I deserved since the beginning? I care about him and I'm giving him that 4th chance. Why? Because he FINALLY gets it. He FINALLY understands that he needs help and he has not only hurt me but he has hurt himself. 




MarkTwain said:


> For that reason, I must ask you to drop the other guy. He has served his purpose. I'm not judging you, I'm only telling you what will work and what won't work.


When this all came out, the DAY of revealing this openly to his parents, I dropped him. I decided I had to work on my marriage and put all of me into it. I hadn't spoken to him for 2 straight weeks. I didn't use my computer at all. He never had an effect on my marriage. My marriage wasn't falling apart BECAUSE of him. My husband didn't even know how I felt about him. He knew we were friends and that was it. He very much was my friend indeed. 

My last post on here was out of straight desperation. I'm sure that is evident in reading it. NO WHERE in that post do I have ANYTHING to say about the other guy. As far as you are aware from the last things I had told you, I had resolved back THEN to give up on that and face my marriage head on and work on it. I did. It wasn't until a few months ago that he revealed his true feelings for me anyway. So as far as I knew there was no way I was even entertaining any slight notion of being whisked and romanced away. Considering you brought him up a few times in your most recent post to me tells me that my husband is not only to YOU but to someone else as well and possibly anyone else he is speaking to regarding our problems putting most of his focus on that. I understand why. It is the ONLY thing I have done to hurt him. Did I do it intentionally to hurt him? No. Is he hurt by it? Yes. Why? Because he is a person with feelings whom I was trying to protect from hurting so I never told him about it. The other guy had NOTHING to do with how terrible my marriage was. I didn't want my husband to know about it, ONLY because I didn't want him to pull the control switch and threaten to turn off my computer and my telephone and point the finger and place the blame on me and this other guy for the reason our marriage is so crappy. I have known the OTHER man for ONE YEAR. In that ONE YEAR that man has done more for me emotionally than my husband ever has in 7 years. 

I am not in elementary school. My friend isn't telling me that I have to choose him or my husband. My husband isn't telling me I have to choose him or my friend. My friend is my friend. He has never done anything to hurt me. There is no reason for me to turn my back on him and forget his existence and the fact that he genuinely cares about my well being and about me for the sake of my marriage that I am not emotionally connected to. 

We saw a counselor recently. The moment my husband brought up what he wished from me. The fact that all he wants is for me to be more assertive and that there's this other guy etc., the counselors response to him was "Why? You can't ask anything of her. She doesn't owe you anything. You have taken so much from her and hurt her so much. You have to earn the right to request anything of her back. You have to regain her trust." 

I realize I have hurt my husband very deeply by not loving him and for being honest with him and upfront with him telling him everything. It hurts me that I have hurt him. We talked about it yet again last night. I cried. I am sorry. My husband says he forgives me for hurting him. He is forgiving me for feeling love for the other guy. 

I didn't want my husband to know how I felt about my friend because I didn't want it to be his scape goat and something that he was going to turn into our problem when our problem had nothing to do with that. Since his finding out about it, and since I was open and honest with him, practically every day since then he has talked about it. Told me his feelings about it. How much it hurts him. My friend is my friend and I am only treating him and speaking to him like my friend and that is all. I went from using my computer every single day for the last 15 YEARS playing games and hanging out with GUYS having a fun time and creating a life around my HOBBY (never once getting emotionally involved with ANYONE except for my husband) to turning my back on my online friends. Not logging on for a week or more on end. Only coming downstairs when he initiates it because he feels bad knowing it was what I loved to do and am no longer doing out of respect and caring for him. I gave it up. I can not change how I feel. I am not going to act as though they never existed and I am not going to tell him "I am sorry but you can't be my friend anymore because my other friend here says I can't" (a situation my 4th grade son has recently found himself in). 

When I posted here the time before this specifically requesting your help MarkTwain, I was once again in desperation. Needing help. There you were through all of it the ONLY one who replied to every one of my posts taking great strides to care about us and help us through this. I appreciate all that you have done for me sir. I do. I don't think you fully understand just how bad it has gotten. Please forgive me for publicly ranting and back talking you. These are my feelings. This is me in the NOW. I don't think I require your help any further. You are of the select few people I have spoken to and who has replied to me on this whole situation with your view point. The majority of people recognize that my husband is the problem and are appalled and wondering why I am still here. 

We go to marriage counseling again tonight. 

We are getting help.

I have much healing and forgiving to do.

I am a victim.

Thank you.


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## brenz (Jan 21, 2009)

Dear Whereisthelove:

I would recommend you and your husband both read The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. You will be blown away at what you are doing to yourselves.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

To reply or not to reply, I am wherestheloves husband for those of you who may not know. I do not reply to defend myself or my actions. What she has written has been the truth. I know I don't deserve her and she for sure doesn't deserve me.

I am working on being different, I do see and understand things that I did without knowing and have changed them. I can swear to her that I will never ever do those things to her again.

I have forgiven her for the only thing she has done to wrong me. Embarrassing me or hurting my feelings with the truth are not things she has done wrong so I do not feel like I need to forgive for them, there is nothing to forgive.

In regards to the other man, I know he is a friend, it hurts me to know the feelings she has but I also feel guilty that she needed a friend to turn to and that I wasn't there. I pushed her without knowing it towards him. I accept the consequences of my actions, in all areas. 

I will continue to be the person that I should have been. I hope that she finds love for me again. I feel like most advice for both of us has been lacking. I get emails from Mort (The Marriage Fitness Guy, his ads are on this site) and often I feel they don't apply not because I don't think there are problems I obviously do, and not because I think that we are beyond the situation but because there is only my love. Most advice is for people who still love each other and want to make it work. In our case I am the one that is hanging on, asking for another chance. I am the one that needs to change. Rarely are these situations a one way street and I don't feel like ours is the exception but its going to take a while and a lot of work on my part before we can even talk about reopening our marriage as a two way street. I have taken and taken and taken without giving much a long the way. I know that our life can not go down that road any longer, its time to change. Its been almost 6 weeks if my math is correct and I have made some major changes, but I also realize that there is no fast track, its taken us nearly 8 years to get here and it will take time if its even possible to get out of it. If we do make it out I feel that we will be much stronger, more refined. 

While it hurts me to know that she feels nothing for me, I will work for as long and as hard as I can. I can't just fix it.

I hope that my efforts pay off in the end but even if they don't I understand a lot more about myself from this hell we have both been living.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

OTOH, the other man needs to go. Period. You don't get to have another man when you are married, and you are still married.

And I don't believe for a minute that you have no feelings for your husband. You are crazy in love with him as you have always been. It is just blocked by so much of his bad behavior toward you. The part of the abuse that you hold yourself responsible for needs to be worked out with your therapist. But the part where you really want to give him a chance but are afraid to also needs to be dealt with. I don't blame you for making him work for it. OTOH, don't give him mixed messages.

Don't be afraid to allow him his own expression. Don't be afraid about what it says about you. This is about both of you. This is about what you've both allowed, tolerated and not done anything about. But now you both have the power to make your lives into what you want them to be. Take that power and build together.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Too much on the other guy, he was a friend, they share a hobby a the same friends. I have zero issues with them being friends.

Dobo you along with someone else pointed out to me that control is an illusion. I have been using control as security. I will not let my insecurities lead to a need for more control. The feelings someone can develop are not of their fault. How they choose to act on them is something else entirely. I feel hurt about it but also understanding in part because I caused it.

I don't have any problems with friends both male or female. The reality is that I can feel secure that she is still with me, she hasn't left.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Sorry, but he's not just a friend. He's getting your emotional attention. Control may be an illusion. But you aren't asking for control. She has control over this and she has to make the decision as to who gets her attention.

Feelings can develop without fault. But they cannot continue to live on without nurturing. If they could, every marriage where one party has left the building would continue on without issue. So don't diminish this. It is what is is. And what it is is incompatible with marriage.


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

I will put all of my focus on my FRIEND and NOTHING on my f'd up marriage tonight at counseling and I will get professional help for the reasons why I developed other feelings for someone other than the person who was HURTING me practically on a daily basis. Thank you dobo for insisting that I CHOOSE between a friend and the man who has hurt me that I am married to. 

He is not getting my emotional attention. I have made great strides to separate romantic feelings for a genuinely caring friendship. 

I was pretty well feeling finished with your advice in the matter as soon as you implied that if I were accepting of my husbands selfish need to please himself all the time, I would have saved myself many years of hurt and abuse. That is no excuse to treat me like that and not recognize or shut down every selfless attempt that I made at loving him. You also took my feelings of not wanting to further seek your advice as fear for being called on, or having done something wrong and shoulder some blame. Am I angelic? No. Was I right there fighting and arguing with my husband all those nights? Yes. I know I have a hand in this. 

I made the decision that my husband is getting EVERY single OUNCE of my attention (which is something that always used to bother me because he always was so needy, that I have no time for myself). I spend every waking moment with him when he is home. He craves my attention and my affection. I can not sit on the opposite couch and read a book while he's watching a football game with out his constant demand of my attention. Sure he's just joking around and trying to be cute and loving but it's simply out of need for my attention. A lot of our problems developed because of his constant need for my attention. Waking me up while I'm dozed off on the couch because he wants my attention. How does that make us individuals? 

I am not choosing to have a man on the side while I'm still married. I am not choosing to have an emotional affair while I have vowed and pledged to love, honor and cherish another man whom I share a wedding band with, children, life and home. I am choosing to give my husband all of my attention as much as he needs, as much as I need to give him. I am choosing to PICK MY OWN FRIENDS and hold them at bay. Seeing or talking to them ONLY occasionally as most friends do. 

"And I don't believe for a minute that you have no feelings for your husband. You are crazy in love with him as you have always been."
How could I possibly be crazy in love with someone who has hurt me like he has. I am empty inside and as hard as it is for him to hear it (I just got off the phone with him and spoke about this with him myself) it is true. I'm not giving him mixed messages. I myself don't even know what I want. I'm not leading him this way or that. I am the one who keeps putting the focus back on reality. He wants to move past this as if it never happened. At least he wishes he could. He knows it can not be forgotten but wished that we were moving forward at a rapid pace being romantic and loving with each other. I told him in order for us to have a romantic and loving relationship and move forward like that we BOTH have to be in LOVE. Sure I can fake it but that's sending him mixed signals isn't it? How is that helping us? It's not. We are building together, we are working together. We are dealing with it in our own ways. I want to be supportive of him and see him through this. I want to recover and heal and find what should have always been there stronger than anything else in our life. 

The counselor also told him that if he forces me to do things or makes me choose this or that, he's more likely to lose me that much quicker. I believe this to be true. 

We are both going to go through emotional turmoil having to relive everything and talk about things that are highly uncomfortable and no where near happy or fun while going through counseling and it takes as much emotional strength as we have to deal with it and each other. I don't need your absolutes. I feel that if it was absolute and necessary that the counselor would have jumped that train as well and would have been the first thing she expected of me as well.

I will continue to listen but I don't have to take everything said as absolute and let you live my life for me and insist I do this or that. I have done plenty. I will continue to keep trying.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Well, your therapist and I disagree on the other man. I think she is wrong.

I also think you were wrong to deprive your husband of the outlet of masturbation. Do I think his constant needs were positive? No. Of course not. But I do think it would have lowered some of his energy and that would have been positive. 

Your other fears, etc. are what they are whether you wish to recognize them or not.

But don't tell me you don't give your husband mixed signals. You are selfish in your behavior toward him these days. Whatever he did to you doesn't give you the right to do this now. Being abused doesn't earn you the right to anything. The only thing you have the right to is to not be abused.

(I was abused while growing up. I have some understanding here.)

You have done things to minimize your husband's hurt. But you haven't done enough to remove this other guy from your life. You KNOW he isn't just a friend. He has no place here.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Dobo, I have to disagree about the masturbation, I don't think it would have solved anything or limited hurt. I can say this more as a fact because we have been together nearly 8 years, I only truly stopped about 3 or 4 years ago. So a lot of the crap that was going on still went on. I was sneaky about it and it wasn't often after she had initially expressed her dislike and disdain for it but I didn't stop. It took finally realizing how it was hurting her to make me change.

It was never about release in my opinion. It was about being with her, bottom line. I was selfish and disrespectful.

Sex has been a major piece of our trouble and our fights seemed to almost always be about it and we would go around in circles for hours just to end up in the same place. Me not wanting to admit that it was about sex but it was. But it wasn't sex itself, it was my selfishness in all aspects that have brought us to this point.

I do not feel cheated out of anything at this point. She says she does not love me, sometimes I think I feel it or at least I want to feel it so I'll hold on to it if for nothing more than strength. We have been sexual yes but we have not had sex. Probably shouldn't have gone down that road yet but we both have desires and feelings. She isn't created mixed signals because of those times. I do sometimes feel excited and hopeful that things are getting better and the fact that we can have those times together sometimes still means a lot to me.

I in no way view those times as "we're over the hump". I can say with 100% certainty that I will NEVER do the things I have done to her again. If she and I met for the first time tomorrow she would never experience the pain I have put her through. To some level this makes the courting process harder because those hurts are still fresh, they do exist, I'm sure she has to wonder if I am just being manipulative again. I am not but it takes time to see that. 

Its easy to talk the talk but much harder to walk the talk.


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## wheresthelove (Dec 21, 2008)

I have admitted and accepting responsibility and regret for expressing his constant need of that out let made me feel bad. 

You are not in our house or in my shoes and know nothing about my "selfish behavior" towards him. I DO NOT think that he owes me anything or that I deserve special treatment as a result of abuse. I haven't earned any special treatment and certainly DO NOT feel like I deserve anything. How dare you insinuate that I am of the mind that I have a RIGHT to this, that, or anything else in the name of "abuse". 

Go on continue to help my husband in private or public as well. How ever he needs it. He needs support and guideance. I hope he gets something useful from you. 

I have nothing left to say to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Interesting response. But I strongly suggest you look in the mirror and ask yourself about your own role in where you are AT THIS MINUTE. Believe it or not, he can leave you, too if you don't play this right... that is, if you love him. The next woman can get this great guy who unfortunately, learned to be a great guy on your nickel. So if you want him to be a great guy for you, you're going to have to help him out. You're going to have to change, too.


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## brenz (Jan 21, 2009)

Please read the Power of Now....everything will make sense.


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## sjm1983 (Sep 18, 2009)

Brenz: I have looked at the book online and honestly I don't think this is for us. Thanks for the suggestion anyways tho. Honestly the writer comes off as a little bit of a crack pot to me. 

Thanks again.



brenz said:


> Please read the Power of Now....everything will make sense.


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