# On the fence



## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Sorry for the length - just trying to get some thoughts out.

Abridged version of my story: Wife had a month-long EA via FB/text/email back in November, DD#1 was in mid-December. Did the whole typical "I can fix it!" thing and tried to nice my way out of the situation, despite seeing it not work for other people (Side note: For those of you reading this, learn from my mistakes - you WILL not get out of this type of situation by being nice or by sweeping it under the rug, it will only get worse or go further underground).

Anyways, after DD#1, wife appeared remorseful about what she had done, and sent a NC email to the OM and deleted him on Facebook. She was open about passwords and lock screen patterns, but there was friction about me actually looking at those things. My suspicions were raised, but I (stupidly) agreed to tell her when I was feeling "triggery" about her electronic devices instead of just looking at them. Unbeknownst to her, I installed a keylogger on her laptop so that I could sleep at night and not have to wonder at all times what she was doing when I wasn't around. A few days later, I installed a different one because I was having trouble with the initial one. I never uninstalled the first one, though (this will be important later). With the new keylogger in place, I discovered that she was logging into a very old Hotmail account of hers, which I thought odd. I logged into it to check it out - completely devoid of any mail whatsoever. Hmm....very suspicious. So, I configured the account to forward all mail to an anonymous mail service and leave a copy in the Inbox. Couple days went by, and nothing. Decided to confront her about it (using the excuse that I saw the account in a Recently Closed tab, didn't want to give up my source) - her excuse was that she was using it to have an order confirmation for a gift sent to it for Valentine's Day. Didn't sit quite right with me, but I didn't have any concrete evidence one way or the other, so I dropped the issue with her and remained suspicious. 

After a couple of weeks, we got into another argument about my snooping and I decided that the long road to trusting her again needed to start somewhere so I uninstalled one of the keyloggers (I had honestly forgotten about the other one). I thought things were going pretty well at this point - we had a lot of heart-to-heart talks about our marriage, our communication, etc. We read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass, the works. I also read No More Mr. Nice Guy and the Married Man Sex Life Primer by myself and began implementing some of those concepts as well - great resources, by the way.

Then, a couple days ago, I got home before she did and my suspicion got the better of me again. I went to go see if any of her saved Chrome passwords were similar to the one she had used for her old Hotmail account - they weren't. But then, I remembered that I had never uninstalled the old keylogger that I was having issues with! Popped it open, and sure as ****, there are messages to the OM again. I left the keylogger window open on the screen and waited for her to come home - when she got home I told her to go look at the screen - the look on her face was priceless.

At this point, Mr. Nice Guy was nowhere to be found - I didn't even have an emotional reaction (beyond the relief of knowing that my concerns that I was in False R were correct). I just calmly told her to pack her **** and get the **** out of my house (important note here: we have two children, 3.5 and 1 year). I then told her that I hoped she had a great life with the OM (who is married) and that I didn't deserve to be subjected to this sort of blatant disrespect.

To my surprise, she FLIPPED out and started sobbing and telling me that I was the only one she wanted to be with, and the only reason that she sent him messages again is because she wanted to "end it on her terms" and not feel "forced into something" (referring to the NC email I insisted she send to him) and that it was a response to a "couple of rough days" that we had. My keylogger did not capture this email message, so I have no way of proving that it was ever actually sent. We ended up having a two-hour long discussion where I talked very little other than to say "All of these words are bull****, I have no reason to believe anything you're saying". In fact, much of what she said was similar to the things she had told me on DD#1 (I want to work on us, you're the only one I want, etc.). During this time, she is full-on SOBBING, snot everywhere - she tries to touch me several times and I pull away, which makes her cry harder. After a while, I get tired of the discussion as I feel it's not going anywhere and I am just repeating the same thing (I deserve to be happy with someone that will not cheat on me). Then I went into the bathroom to take my contacts out and go to bed in our guest room. I leave my wedding ring on the bathroom sink (two days later and I am still not wearing it). The next day there were literally walls of text from her (we chat on Skype sometimes when I'm at work) telling me that she refuses to give up on us and that she needs me in her life. My response, of course, was "You gave up on us when you decided to talk to him again".

If you've made it this far, THANK YOU for taking the time to read my sad little story, random Internet person. I had to tell the preceding story to provide some context for my dilemma (and the basis for the thread title). I feel like I have grown a lot emotionally since mid-December - part of that growth involved the realization that while I, generally speaking, prefer reconciliation, I would survive and eventually thrive on my own. I told her this point-blank and she knows that I am teetering on the edge of ending the relationship, and she is scared.

So that's where I'm at right now - I am unsure as to whether or not I can forgive this transgression on top of the original one, if I can live the rest of my life not knowing if the person I'm married to is 100% truthful and honest. I have also already told her that I would much rather go through the divorce despite the kids than stay in a marriage that I'm not happy with. Every time I say something like this, she is reduced to a sobbing mess again.

The truth is, I *want* to reconcile, but honestly, it's been a nice couple of days not having to worry about what she's doing when I'm not there to keep an eye on her (I started doing the 180 and it is working like crazy). I'm also worried that if I forgive her a 2nd time, it will further enable the type of behavior that got me here in the first place and just seem weak. Right now, I feel like I have the power in the situation because I'm the one that is responsible for the decision to stay or go. (She has told me over and over and over and over that she is willing to do *ANYTHING* to make it work) She pushed for MC and I agreed to one session (she was against MC the first time around after one session, saying that she felt "uncomfortable"). She has also offered to send a certified letter to both the OM and the OMW to expose the affair. I told her that it may be too little too late, but that it was a good gesture. 

So after all of my rambling, I guess my question boils down to this: How did other folks out there decide to either reconcile or divorce after multiple DDays? Every situation is different, obviously, and I can see pros and cons for both situations. Just looking for an outside perspective, I guess.

Thanks again for reading this rambling mess.


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## lewmin (Nov 5, 2012)

You are going to get great advice here, but I'll jump the gun. The first thing you must do is for you (not your wife) to bring the proof immediately to the other wife's place/house...now!! This is STEP 1. (Don't believe anything your wife tells you know about her sending a certified letter to expose). You do it and don't tell your wife you are going to do it and make sure the other wife gets the info.

Then look for your wife under a bus. Because that's where she will be thrown by the other man.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

you do not have to rush to any decision you seemed to be in control, which is good.
I guess it would maybe depend on what the content of the email she sent had in it, at least that is what i would want to see to help me decide.

yes lewmin above is right you do the exposure not her and don't tell her. I would blow the OM even if you decide to D


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

At the very minimum you have to let the OM's wife know.
It's not right for her to be in the dark.
Did you like being in the dark?


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Definitely contact posoms wife. She may have information that you do not. 

Do not believe anything coming from your wife's mouth. Cheaters are liars and your wife is no exception. Pay attention to actions. 

Get your wife to write a complete timeline with all details. 

Tell her you will insist on a polygraph to make sure it is accurate. Check where you can have this done locally and be prepared to follow thru. Also be prepared for more revelations than you now know. 

Everyone is different. For me I would have to know what I am forgiving. 

Your wife sounds very sorry that she got busted. Do not back down. Now is not the time for weakness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Yeah, as far as the certified letter goes, I would never in a million years trust her to send it without actually seeing the letter itself. She offered to write two, actually - one to the OM, and one to the OMW and we could mail them together.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

convert said:


> I guess it would maybe depend on what the content of the email she sent had in it, at least that is what i would want to see to help me decide.


As far as the actual messages go, there was the standard thinly veiled sexual innuendos and flirting. I have a copy of the keylogger log. She also told me that she sent him a message when I confronted her about the email account telling OM that she realized that what she was doing was inappropriate. I didn't believe that line of bull**** for one second though.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

If she wants R, time is on your side. Take all the time you want to watch her actions, not words. Then decide. Give your self a time period, say 6, 9 months or so. Let her prove herself.

Tell the OMW now. That mistake allowed them to keep their addiction fueled. It will help burst the fantasy too.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> Yeah, as far as the certified letter goes, I would never in a million years trust her to send it without actually seeing the letter itself. She offered to write two, actually - one to the OM, and one to the OMW and we could mail them together.


Only to have the other guy intercept both? No, do it on your own without any advance warning.

As for reconciling again, if that is what you want she will have to understand that you may NEVER trust her again so complete openness (passwords, media, etc...) will be required and you will NOT feel bad snooping on her.

I would strongly suggest marriage counseling but you need to be ready to address issues she has with you. An affair is a result of something missing in the relationship. That's not a justification, just reality. You may hear things that you won't like but if you want the marriage to work you need to work on ALL the issues in the marriage.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Chris Taylor said:


> Only to have the other guy intercept both? No, do it on your own without any advance warning.
> 
> As for reconciling again, if that is what you want she will have to understand that you may NEVER trust her again so complete openness (passwords, media, etc...) will be required and you will NOT feel bad snooping on her.
> 
> I would strongly suggest marriage counseling but you need to be ready to address issues she has with you. An affair is a result of something missing in the relationship. That's not a justification, just reality. You may hear things that you won't like but if you want the marriage to work you need to work on ALL the issues in the marriage.



Good point - the one to the OMW should probably come from me anyways - I guess there is still a possibility that OM could intercept it since it'll be sent to his house, but that is a risk I'm going to have to take.

As far as MC goes, I have tentatively agreed to one session, so we'll see where that takes us. 

Trust me, I understand that I am 50% responsible for the problems in the marriage that created the environment for the affair.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

As far as marriage counseling goes, only go if you truly want to reconcile. When we went to marriage counseling she asked what we wanted out of it. Our answer was to see if we wanted to stay together. Her response was that was a waste of time. Either you come with the intention of working to stay together or just split. You need to be dedicated.

If you go in with anything less than full dedication (and agreeing to one session seems like less than full dedication), you give the impression you aren't all in. And if you aren't all in, neither will your wife.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

If your marriage had an environment for an affair to take place. Keep in mind you didn't have one. She chose that path. Not you. 

She faked r not you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lewmin (Nov 5, 2012)

Again..you may only get one chance to expose, so you must do it right. It sounds like you know where they live....so get the proof in her hands!! Is she a stay-at-hiome-mom? Now is your chance. Hand-deliver the letter have the proof attached and explain to her what you know. Most importantly, do not chance an interception, because an interception will just make it easier for the affair to continue and go underground.

By getting it in her hands, now you will have 2 sets of eyes watching out for continued contact. 

You are new to this game. Collectively the TAM members on here are guiding you to make sure you get the best results.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Do not decide right away, take your time on deciding R or D. Going to MC is a good first step but what ever you do, do not let her blame shift. She will want to tell the MC that if you were more or less she would have never done what she did.

She has to own her EA and then you can move forward.

Yes you need to expose to the OM's wife, do it quickly and do not let your wife know you are going to do it.

Are you sure that this did not go PA?


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

The best way to get the message across is to deliver it yourself to the OM wife. That way you know that she knows about the affair. 

She had her first warning shot and dismissed it as a empty threat and now she knows that she's in trouble plenty.

I guess it comes down to if you can ever trust her again and if she showed true remorse the first time around, maybe you could have patched things up but when there is a second go around when she was told no further contact and went ahead with it and in a underhanded way, then IMO I wouldn't trust her again. 

She was against seeing a MC the first time around and now when she knows that the door of the marriage is about to close on her all of a sudden she's all for a MC.

Honestly, it seems that she's only remorseful because she got caught the second time and finally pushed you over the edge. Maybe she should have thought about that the first time around. I would be very wary about her being sorry.

I understand your concern about the children but you can still be a great father if you decide to divorce. Lots of guys have gone through it including me and as long as the kids know you love them and will be there for them, you'll be OK.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

lewmin said:


> Again..you may only get one chance to expose, so you must do it right. It sounds like you know where they live....so get the proof in her hands!! Is she a stay-at-hiome-mom? Now is your chance. Hand-deliver the letter have the proof attached and explain to her what you know. Most importantly, do not chance an interception, because an interception will just make it easier for the affair to continue and go underground.
> 
> By getting it in her hands, now you will have 2 sets of eyes watching out for continued contact.
> 
> You are new to this game. Collectively the TAM members on here are guiding you to make sure you get the best results.


They live 7+ hours away in a different state, so hand-delivering the letter isn't a very viable option.

Thank you for your advice so far though - it's a big help.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

mahike said:


> Do not decide right away, take your time on deciding R or D. Going to MC is a good first step but what ever you do, do not let her blame shift. She will want to tell the MC that if you were more or less she would have never done what she did.
> 
> She has to own her EA and then you can move forward.
> 
> ...


It looks like I caught it before it had a chance to go PA - I believe that it definitely would have if I had not intervened in December.



6301 said:


> The best way to get the message across is to deliver it yourself to the OM wife. That way you know that she knows about the affair.
> 
> She had her first warning shot and dismissed it as a empty threat and now she knows that she's in trouble plenty.
> 
> ...


This is my thought/fear as well - that the only reason that she is showing remorse now is that she got caught and is afraid of losing the stability that I provide. Cake eating, basically. But then I have moments where I think that it's all real too. 

I am concerned about the kids, but I wouldn't let them influence my decision to R or D - like you said, they'll be fine.

FYI, finally learned how to quote multiple posts.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: On the fence*



Nom_De_Guerre said:


> They live 7+ hours away in a different state, so hand-delivering the letter isn't a very viable option.
> 
> Thank you for your advice so far though - it's a big help.


You can use a process service or PI.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

You could address the envelope to the OM's wife. Put both letters in the same envelope and have his and hers exposure letters once she opens it. Send it certified post so that she has to sign for it.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Can you find her online or on Facebook, assuming you know the OM name can you find the wife? I'd be afraid of the letter being hidden/taken by the husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> You can use a process service or PI.


Real solid idea, actually. Thanks for this. 



PhillyGuy13 said:


> Can you find her online or on Facebook, assuming you know the OM name can you find the wife? I'd be afraid of the letter being hidden/taken by the husband.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WW gave up POSOM's wife's name. Only a quick Google search to find their home address. I am worried that the letter will get intercepted, so I will try social media as well.

EDIT: Found her on FB - message will be sent to her shortly
EDIT2: FB message sent to her with description of affair, offer to show proof, and my contact info should she want to contact me. Feels good.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> *Wife had a month-long EA via FB/text/email back in November, DD#1 was in mid-December.*
> 
> You are very early in your relationship for her to be messing around. I would think that this would more unusual due to the fact that she is a young mother.
> 
> ...


This is the $64 question. We all have different takes and views on the decision. It is a cost/benefit thing. Can you afford to let her destroy your trust, ego, and family by cheating again? Can you afford to divorce (D) and move on?

You are still only a few weeks out from your last d-day. Considering the short time, I think that waiting to chose might benefit you in knowing you made the right decision. It sounds like you have pushed it to the point that she is willing to take some steps in a positve direction.

How would it affect you if you found out it was a PA? It really might have more depth than you know. I am sure these things are in your head.

My one time MC told me that when you decide it is time to D, don't offer false hopes to the WS. It is hurtful to both of you.

When you do feel you have made a choice, stick to it.

Listen to your gut. Listen to those that are objective and trusted. They often can see the bigger picture, and have less bias toward R or D.

Good luck. So sorry you are here. Very glad you are finding good information and some direction.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Lovemytruck said:


> This is the $64 question. We all have different takes and views on the decision. It is a cost/benefit thing. Can you afford to let her destroy your trust, ego, and family by cheating again? Can you afford to divorce (D) and move on?
> 
> You are still only a few weeks out from your last d-day. Considering the short time, I think that waiting to chose might benefit you in knowing you made the right decision. It sounds like you have pushed it to the point that she is willing to take some steps in a positve direction.
> 
> ...


If I found out it was a PA, she would be on the curb before the day was over. Plain and simple. I wouldn't even be able to trust the paternity of my kids at that point.

Thank you for your advice and kind words - they mean a lot to me.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I may have missed it. If he lives 7 hours away, what was the connection between them?


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> I may have missed it. If he lives 7 hours away, what was the connection between them?


Old boyfriend from before WW and I met. She broke up with him to start dating me 8 years ago.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> They live 7+ hours away in a different state, so hand-delivering the letter isn't a very viable option.
> 
> Thank you for your advice so far though - it's a big help.


You can send a registered letter, signature required, and only her signature designated. Even if he intercepts she will be suspect of such a letter arriving and why the necessary regulations of signature, etc.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> You can send a registered letter, signature required, and only her signature designated. Even if he intercepts she will be suspect of such a letter arriving and why the necessary regulations of signature, etc.


Yup - hand-writing the letter now, will be going out today without WW's knowledge. 

FB message was just sent 5 minutes ago to her Inbox.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Just loving how well f-book, and the rest of social media reinvented ways for distant old flames reach out and touch each other. NOT!!!

You're not friends with her. Did you have to pay for the f-book msg, to the OMW acct?


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> Just loving how well f-book, and the rest of social media reinvented ways for distant old flames reach out and touch each other. NOT!!!
> 
> You're not friends with her. Did you have to pay for the f-book msg, to the OMW acct?


Yes, $1.00 well spent.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

Im new here. This is my first ever post - Lucky you!
What I didnt get out of this thread so far is what the second contact content consisted of (say that 3 times fast). So she had a an EA, got caught, remorsed, then made contact again. If the second contact had those thinly veiled sexual innuendos, then you have a huge concern. If she really was just trying to close it out, then you may have more wiggle room in what you consider grounds for R or D.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

happi_g_more2 said:


> Im new here. This is my first ever post - Lucky you!
> What I didnt get out of this thread so far is what the second contact content consisted of (say that 3 times fast). So she had a an EA, got caught, remorsed, then made contact again. If the second contact had those thinly veiled sexual innuendos, then you have a huge concern. If she really was just trying to close it out, then you may have more wiggle room in what you consider grounds for R or D.


I don't have anything but her word to go on as far as "closing it out", so I'm just assuming that she lied about it in a misguided attempt to make me feel better.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I would advise four things, and relatively quickly:

*1. Go to the doctor and get an STD test. * Yes, you *think* it wasn't a PA but this day and age you do not want to play with your life because you've been lied to. Tell your doctor you caught your wife cheating and need to be sure--the doc will understand.

*2. Take care of yourself.* Having two D-Day's can be tough on a person mentally, emotionally, and physically, so you may need to remind yourself to eat (I found that soup and stew is nutritious and you can swallow it past the lump in your throat). Take time to sleep, and if you can't fall asleep drink tea or read a textbook or maybe try Melatonin. Please do not drink or get high to try to remove the pain--you don't sound like you're in that kind of frame of mind, but I'm just saying... You have two pretty young kids who are depending on you, so you need your strength and you will need to be able to think clearly. 

*3. Expose the affair*. This one ALWAYS gets an argument and hesitation, but you will learn more about your WW's state of mind if you expose the affair than anything else! Expose does not mean "seek vengeance by telling everyone the dirty stuff your wife has been doing." Expose means "bring the truth to the light of day to those who MAY be affected by her choices and to those who MAY be able to help influence her." In your instance it was not a work affair where business resources were used to facilitate the affair...so no point in blabbing to her co-workers or boss. BUT I would absolutely tell her parents, your parents, any siblings of hers who are pro-marriage and close to her, and siblings of yours, your pastor or spiritual leader, etc. Here's why: in short time she could start spinning a web of lies to build her case that you're "abusive" or that you treat her badly etc. and THAT is why she *HAS TO* leave you--and oh! she just met this wonderful new man!! No. Tell the family the TRUTH so they know why you are being weepy or emotional when you are not that kind of guy...or why you lash out or act harshly.

Little side story on this one so you get the idea. Male person came here to TAM and his wife was having an affair with one of the patients in the clinic where she was a nurse. The Doc who ran the clinic was like a mentor to her, and she looked up to him, but Doc had no idea of the affair. EVERYONE told the guy to expose to the Doc but wifey convinced him it would be airing dirty laundry and dragging her name through the mud (NO--it was her ACTIONS that put her name in the mud, not him telling the truth!). BUT he didn't listen. Sure enough, wifey did agree to talk to Doc about it and to the guy's surprise, the she said the Doc told her to leave him!! WHAT???? So the guy went to talk to Doc, and found out his wifey had told Doc: "Last night he screamed at me for 3 hours. The night before that, he hit the wall! What do you think I should do?" Yeah--hadn't bothered to mention that 2 nights ago was D-Day and last night he was screaming is own pain for what she had done to him with her affair! 

So exposure is KEY, and like I said you'll find out more about your wife's true "remorse" with exposure than with any other action. If she's TRULY remorseful, she will feel dirty and low as a bug, but it's the truth and she'll want to start living honestly. If she's just sorry she got caught, she'll want to cover it up. 

*4. Make an appointment with a Lawyer.* This isn't to file papers or finalize anything. This is an appointment to go over what the legal options ARE in your state, find out what you can and can not do, and get a feel for what it may cost you. The price for divorce is a LOT higher than just the cash it will cost you, but the more informed you are, the better decision you can make. I will say this: adultery does not make ONE BIT OF DIFFERENCE in court, so if you're thinking "I'll make her pay by getting sole custody of our children and the judge will yell at her for committing adultery"....think again. No crime was committed--it was mean and hurtful but not a crime--and thus the court's view will be that people are allowed to be jerks. If you can get your head around the fact that at best you'll lose half your stuff and probably half the time with your kids, and no judge will give you more, then you're thinking clearly about divorce.

Finally, look at the two links in my signature. They are just good, helpful starting places.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

I am thinking that you are very sharp on detecting her email activity. She probably is going to shift gears and go with game chat features, messenger, or trusty old phone calls.

You might benefit by going into stealth mode and back off of the confrontation for a few weeks. Read Weighlifter's threads and posts about VARs. If she is serious about ending it, you can confirm it by using a VAR to make sure she is not talking to him via a different method.

She knows what your boundries are now, and there really is not further justification for her to talk to him. If it was physical, I am sure there will be more communications in the near future.

Hang tough and quietly learn the truth.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Hi NDG

you have managed the situation in the proper way so far (taking a strong stand regarding her attitude)

as many user say, contacting OMW is essential, besides the NC letters, I advice you not to let know your wife when you are going to contact OMW, many times AP warn each other and this gives times to OM/OW to prepare and manipulate their partners when the BS contact them.

if the woman is not the "denial type" she can become yout best ally having him checked and monitoring his attemps to contact your wife.

many times NC fails because even if the WW don't restarts the contact, OM does it, as long as OM don't have consequences he have no reason to stop, so exposure to his wife is 100& neccesary.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> I would advise four things, and relatively quickly:
> 
> *1. Go to the doctor and get an STD test. * Yes, you *think* it wasn't a PA but this day and age you do not want to play with your life because you've been lied to. Tell your doctor you caught your wife cheating and need to be sure--the doc will understand.
> 
> ...





Lovemytruck said:


> I am thinking that you are very sharp on detecting her email activity. She probably is going to shift gears and go with game chat features, messenger, or trusty old phone calls.
> 
> *I have access to her phone records - I don't think she is that stupid, but if she is, I will know about it eventually.*
> 
> ...


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

manticore said:


> Hi NDG
> 
> you have managed the situation in the proper way so far (taking a strong stand regarding her attitude)
> 
> ...


I exposed the affair to his wife via FB about half an hour ago, and there will be a certified letter on its way to their residence in about an hour or so. WW is not aware of either of these events.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> I don't have anything but her word to go on as far as "closing it out", so I'm just assuming that she lied about it in a misguided attempt to make me feel better.


See if you can catch her telling the truth a few times before you start believing any more lies. Let her know that all her lies have reduced the balance in the trust account to zero. Until she rebuilds it, she should keep proof of her communications if she expects you to believe it.

Too soon to make a decision on whether to reconcile or not. Go forward as if you will for the time being. Won't hurt to see a lawyer to see what divorce will look like, also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> I exposed the affair to his wife via FB about half an hour ago, and there will be a certified letter on its way to their residence in about an hour or so. WW is not aware of either of these events.


Was this a private message or did you post it for everyone to read. Just curious as I have often wondered about this approach and would curious how it turns out


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

happi_g_more2 said:


> Was this a private message or did you post it for everyone to read. Just curious as I have often wondered about this approach and would curious how it turns out


Private message in this case - paid $1.00 to have it delivered to OMW's Inbox since we are not Facebook friends. Here is the text of the message, if you or anyone else is interested:

OMW,

You don't know me at all, but I thought that you should know that OM has been cheating on you with my wife for the past couple of months. They've known each other for 10+ years, but recently reconnected on Facebook. On December 18th, I discovered a Facebook chat log between him and my wife, WW. There was a lot of interaction of an emotional and sexual nature - the initial relationship lasted about a month, give or take a few days. There were sexual pictures sent by my wife to OM and discussion of meeting at a hotel in A Midwest City the weekend of January 24-26th (was OM planning a trip/vacation that weekend? Now you know why). Communication continued in mid-January with emails from my wife's Hotmail account at [email protected] - if you have access to OM's email accounts, you may want to check to see if there are any messages from that address. These were also mostly sexual in nature.

I realize that you may not believe anything I have to say, especially if you talk to OM about this message. After all, I'm a random stranger and he's the man you married. However, I want you to know that this is all very real and I can provide proof in the form of logged keystrokes from my wife's computer as well as phone and text records if necessary. We are in the same situation - our significant others have been cheating on us with other people. I think that if I were in your shoes, I would want someone to reach out and clue me in to what was happening around me. 

Finally, I'd like to give you my cell phone number in case you want to talk in more detail about the timeline of events or specifics about things that WW said, or if you just want someone to talk to that understands how you might be feeling. It is xxx-xxx-xxxx - please feel free to call any time. If you'd prefer email, you can send me an email any time at [email protected]. I'm sorry that you have to be in this situation - believe me, I know how it feels.

Names and locations changed to protect the guilty.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I wouldn't have mentioned the key logger. If she wants the proof and he wants to push the issue, it could get ugly if you provide details gotten through it's use. Just an FYI.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> I wouldn't have mentioned the key logger. If she wants the proof and he wants to push the issue, it could get ugly if you provide details gotten through it's use. Just an FYI.


Not sure what you mean by "it could get ugly". Technically speaking, the laptop is in a shared area of the house, so I feel secure from any sort of legal repercussions if that's what you're getting at.


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## lewmin (Nov 5, 2012)

I think your note to OMW on Facebook is right on the money.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> Private message in this case - paid $1.00 to have it delivered to OMW's Inbox since we are not Facebook friends. Here is the text of the message, if you or anyone else is interested:
> 
> OMW,
> 
> ...


Just a couple of Q's. What did you put in the Subject. I only ask cause the first line sounds a little "spammy", so hopefully she doesnt just delete it while in a rush. Also, just trying to piece this together. She wasnt just talking/talking dirty to him, she was sending sexually graphic pictures to him on a laptop that is in a central part of the house? and you have kids? do the kids have access to this laptop? And they were planning a weekend away? Was your wife also making plans that weekend with a cover story?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> Not sure what you mean by "it could get ugly". Technically speaking, the laptop is in a shared area of the house, so I feel secure from any sort of legal repercussions if that's what you're getting at.


Doesn't matter. It is still violation of wire tapping laws if you "accessed" or "intercepted" her email without her explicit consent. Using the information gathered even on a shared computer is still a violation if consent is not there (which may be moot, as you have never said if she gave you any consent, I am just assuming since you said how you "discovered" it). That is what a key logger does is intercept, so it is a federal law violation and more than likely state laws as well. I was just reading about this early this morning (strange coincidence). 

The general consensus is that for a first offense, it is usually a slap on the wrist, and the vast majority of the time it is never even an issue, as nothing is ever said or brought out about it for a case to evolve. It is the small percentage of times where the issue is pushed that it gets ugly. I am no lawyer, so I only speak of what I read on law sites, like the one I was reading about today.

I don't think you will have any issues at all, but when you start throwing around you are using a key logger and she hasn't given consent, then things could turn if the issue is pushed (although I don't see this being the issue, but dependent on the state she could bring personal torts against you for invasion of privacy, wiretapping, etc.). In the future I would just say I have proof and can provide it if requested or necessary and not divulge how you came about it.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Doesn't matter. It is still violation of wire tapping laws if you "accessed" or "intercepted" her email without her explicit consent. Using the information gathered even on a shared computer is still a violation if consent is not there (which may be moot, as you have never said if she gave you any consent, I am just assuming since you said how you "discovered" it). That is what a key logger does is intercept, so it is a federal law violation and more than likely state laws as well. I was just reading about this early this morning (strange coincidence).
> 
> The general consensus is that for a first offense, it is usually a slap on the wrist, and the vast majority of the time it is never even an issue, as nothing is ever said or brought out about it for a case to evolve. It is the small percentage of times where the issue is pushed that it gets ugly. I am no lawyer, so I only speak of what I read on law sites, like the one I was reading about today.
> 
> I don't think you will have any issues at all, but when you start throwing around you are using a key logger and she hasn't given consent, then things could turn if the issue is pushed (although I don't see this being the issue, but dependent on the state she could bring personal torts against you for invasion of privacy, wiretapping, etc.). In the future I would just say I have proof and can provide it if requested or necessary and not divulge how you came about it.


Wow, great response. Thank you for typing that out - very interesting information and good to know. 

She gave retroactive consent, maybe that counts for something.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

I seem to be the DNA guy around here. Even if you are sure your kids are yours, it would be useful to tell your wife you are going to DNA test them.

It will rock her world and demonstrate how her actions have shaken the very foundation of your marriage. It’s a dramatic way of showing what even an EA did to your marriage and your trust of her. Look at her reaction. 

Your kids are too young to know what you are doing if you decide to go ahead and test. Buy a kit at WalMart or look for them online. The kit costs $30 and you just rub a Q-tip on the inside of the kid’s cheek and yours. You mail the kit to a lab and pay $130 more.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> Wow, great response. Thank you for typing that out - very interesting information and good to know.
> 
> She gave retroactive consent, maybe that counts for something.


No problem. Here is the website I was reading earlier today. It deals with North Carolina law a lot, but also covers the basics of federal as well. These are pretty much the standards that most states work off of in determining how they handle such issues though. You would want to read more about the specifics in your state. It is interesting how the laws apply to accessing information on smartphones as well and an eye opening read.

Spousal Spying: Wiretapping, Recording, Email Interception and GPS Tracking - Articles, Articles


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Graywolf2 said:


> I seem to be the DNA guy around here. Even if you are sure your kids are yours, it would be useful to tell your wife you are going to DNA test them.
> 
> It will rock her world and demonstrate how her actions have shaken the very foundation of your marriage. It’s a dramatic way of showing what even an EA did to your marriage and your trust of her. Look at her reaction.
> 
> Your kids are too young to know what you are doing if you decide to go ahead and test. Buy a kit at WalMart or look for them online. The kit costs $30 and you just rub a Q-tip on the inside of the kid’s cheek and yours. You mail the kit to a lab and pay $130 more.


I had considered this already - at this point, I don't know that I can be 100% sure of anything where she is concerned.


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## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

You may wish to offer your cell number if requested (and confirmed by the OMW).
Hate to think your letter gets intercepted and you get harassed by someone 7 hours away.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

CASE_Sensitive said:


> You may wish to offer your cell number if requested (and confirmed by the OMW).
> Hate to think your letter gets intercepted and you get harassed by someone 7 hours away.


I included it in both the letter and the Facebook message.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

So, when I got home from work today, there was a note waiting for me that WW had written. It moved me, so I wanted to share it with the people that are kind enough to read this thread:

_Nom_De_Guerre, my love,

I fell in love with you on a cold rainy night in [insert city we met] in November 2005. The second you took me in your arms and pulled me in to kiss me, that was it for me. I will never regret falling so hard and fast for you. To me, you were amazing - a seemingly rough and tough exterior, but an extremely loving and gentle personality. 

I knew from our very first all-night talk that there was something different about you. I never imagined how right I was. It may be cliche, but you really do make me want to be a better person. For myself, for you, and for our two amazing daughters. Watching you talk to them and play with them brings tears to my eyes all the time. They absolutely adore you, and so do I. We need you in our lives. Every single day. Please let me show you how much I love you and need you. I will spend every day of the rest of my life doing that. It is going to take time for me to forgive myself and stop hating myself for what I did and for causing you so much pain. You deserve for me to be a better wife. I wrongly had the expectation for you to constantly shower me with affection and attention. In reality, I need to do that for you. Please don't ever doubt my love or attraction for/to you. It has only grown over the years. Watching you really start to care and take care of yourself has attracted me to you even more. Aside from your personality, it was your eyes and your strong arms that did it for me. 

You are the most amazing man I know. You've worked so hard to get where you are and I am more in love with you today than ever. Right here by your side is where I need to be. It's exactly where I want to be. Please let me have that honor. I am so proud to be your wife and the mother of your children. I love you so much.

Yours always,

Mrs. Nom_De_Guerre_


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> So, when I got home from work today, there was a note waiting for me that WW had written. It moved me, so I wanted to share it with the people that are kind enough to read this thread:
> 
> _Nom_De_Guerre, my love,
> 
> ...


Nice words.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

verpin zal said:


> Nice words.


My thoughts exactly. Let's see how she matches that with some actions.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

No word on OMW exposure from them or your W then?


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> No word on OMW exposure from them or your W then?


Nothing from OMW as of yet via FB. Certified letter went out earlier today, should be delivered in a couple days.

WW does not know about either thing. She did write a nice NC which I will mail at random.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> Not sure what you mean by "it could get ugly". Technically speaking, the laptop is in a shared area of the house, so I feel secure from any sort of legal repercussions if that's what you're getting at.


You are secure, unless you live in Wayne County, MI. Some states specifically exempt husband and wife and the rest ignore it in domestic situations. Besides, the government is too busy wiretapping everyone to prosecute anyone for wiretapping. The only thing is, you just can't use this evidence in court in most states.


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## Stressedandsad (Jan 29, 2014)

Can I ask which keylogger you used. Was the one you originally installed not working correctly?


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## lewmin (Nov 5, 2012)

Because of your wife's remorse thus far via the note she left you, I think you have a good chance at a reconciliation. She is not blame-shifting, etc. Now, if the other woman contacts you because of the exposure tactic you rightfully used, and all hell breaks out, it will be up to your wife to fully support you, and not be mad at you that you exposed without her knowing. She has to understand that you did this to protect your own marriage and how the OM/OW marriage goes is no concern or interest to her. If she is with you on this, there is hope for you two. Good luck.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

lewmin said:


> Because of your wife's remorse thus far via the note she left you, I think you have a good chance at a reconciliation. She is not blame-shifting, etc. Now, if the other woman contacts you because of the exposure tactic you rightfully used, and all hell breaks out, it will be up to your wife to fully support you, and not be mad at you that you exposed without her knowing. She has to understand that you did this to protect your own marriage and how the OM/OW marriage goes is no concern or interest to her. If she is with you on this, there is hope for you two. Good luck.


I told her about the FB message last night (ended up being about 8 hours after I actually sent it). She was 100% understanding and said "I can't and don't care about their marriage, it isn't important to me".

Thank you for the hopeful words.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> So, when I got home from work today, there was a note waiting for me that WW had written. It moved me, so I wanted to share it with the people that are kind enough to read this thread:
> 
> _Nom_De_Guerre, my love,
> 
> ...


Very pretty, but remember words are just that. Words.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Jasel said:


> Very pretty, but remember words are just that. Words.


This lesson is not lost on me. It will mean a lot more when those words are backed up with actions.


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## MrHappyHat (Oct 24, 2012)

Edit: comment removed


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> I told her about the FB message last night (ended up being about 8 hours after I actually sent it). She was 100% understanding and said "I can't and don't care about their marriage, it isn't important to me".
> 
> Thank you for the hopeful words.


Its very encouraging that she didn't get mad about the FB message. IF you smelled even a hit of dissatisfaction, it could point to a false R. 

Also, please let us know if/when you get a response from POSOMW. Id really like to see how this plays out on FB.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

happi_g_more2 said:


> Its very encouraging that she didn't get mad about the FB message. IF you smelled even a hit of dissatisfaction, it could point to a false R.
> 
> Also, please let us know if/when you get a response from POSOMW. Id really like to see how this plays out on FB.


Yes, I certainly will keep the thread up to date. Especially so if she replies to me. 

An interesting question: have any of you guys ever experienced and or/heard of any threats of violence (or actual violence) from the OM that come about as a result of exposing the affair to the OMW? WW brought up that point when I told her about the FB message and I had never really considered it before. Not super worried per se, just never really crossed my mind.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> Yes, I certainly will keep the thread up to date. Especially so if she replies to me.
> 
> An interesting question: have any of you guys ever experienced and or/heard of any threats of violence (or actual violence) from the OM that come about as a result of exposing the affair to the OMW? WW brought up that point when I told her about the FB message and I had never really considered it before. Not super worried per se, just never really crossed my mind.


Ive heard of people getting killed for cutting in line, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was violent reaction. As for a specific example, no I have not heard/seen that. Fact is, you cant worry yourself with that kind of stuff, you have too much on your plate. If, however, you have a credible reason to think that violence could occur and you fear for your safety, find some legal form of self defense weapon to carry. Tazer, collapsible night stick, roll of quarters in your pocket. The only thing more satisfying than watching POSOMs marriage dissolve as a result of you exposing, is to than beat the piss out of him in self defense. Just my opinion though, others Im sure will disagree.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

He knew what he was getting in to. Your wife will be the likely target of his displeasure, since she got them both caught. Most OM are cowards, that's why they carry on in secret. They don't want to deal with you, they want an easy lay. OM will have his hands full with his own W soon.

BTW, If he breaks NC, get an RO against him.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Yes there were some posts here where the OM threatened the BS, but it is rare. I threatened the OM and I think that is more the case.

Since she said she will do anything I would ask her for all internet accounts and have her write them down. Ask her if she has a burner phone. Ask her how long can you check on her?

That will give you a partial answer. If she says for ever or when ever, you are well on your way.

By the way. A NC letter means little if they take it further underground. Mine did a letter and she continued the A.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Thorburn said:


> Yes there were some posts here where the OM threatened the BS, but it is rare. I threatened the OM and I think that is more the case.
> 
> Since she said she will do anything I would ask her for all internet accounts and have her write them down. Ask her if she has a burner phone. Ask her how long can you check on her?
> 
> ...


Yeah, she has said that she has no problem letting me look whenever I want for as long as I want, no questions asked. I asked about the burner phone previously and she said no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

Excellent work. You are dictating the situation rather than having the situation dictate you. :thumbup:


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## Mrs._Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 31, 2014)

I want to begin by saying that I did not come here to defend my actions. That is something that I cannot and will not do, because it isn't possible. I apologize in advance for the length of this as well.

In all of this, I am not blaming my husband at all for what I did. Prior to my EA (he was 100% correct in that it was not a PA), we were having communication issues. I completely take responsibility for my part in that. OM was simply there at the right time and said all the right things (which I've found out since then is extremely common). I made the decision to let things go too far and it was very inappropriate.

We attended one MC session a week after the original DDay, and I felt uncomfortable because we went to see a young male therapist. OM is a young male therapist (including MC), and I would sometimes talk to him in between client sessions. It was simply too soon after the discovery for me, because I hadn't been able to grieve/process everything at that point. I was also very angry (not at my husband or because I got caught) at myself for what I'd allowed to happen. In general, I am completely open to the idea of MC, and reconciliation is the only thing I've ever wanted. I am willing to do anything and everything I can to make things work.

As Nom_De_Guerre stated, I sent OM a NC email (and did close the account), and wrote him a NC letter. The letter was given to my husband, and my wish is for him to at some point send it along with his letter to OM's wife (with her being the recipient).

The only thing I want at this point is to move forward and recommit to my husband, whom I only have love and respect for. The choices I made showed him nothing but a lack of respect, and that is something I'm going to work every day at repairing.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

Mrs._Nom_De_Guerre said:


> I want to begin by saying that I did not come here to defend my actions. That is something that I cannot and will not do, because it isn't possible. I apologize in advance for the length of this as well.
> 
> In all of this, I am not blaming my husband at all for what I did. Prior to my EA (he was 100% correct in that it was not a PA), we were having communication issues. I completely take responsibility for my part in that. OM was simply there at the right time and said all the right things (which I've found out since then is extremely common). I made the decision to let things go too far and it was very inappropriate.
> 
> ...


100% Transparency goes a long long way. As does confirmation that SSDPOSOMW is well aware of his actions. (SSD = Super Super Duper since this A hole is a counselor and knew exactly what kind of evil he was perpetrating).


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> An interesting question: have any of you guys ever experienced and or/heard of any threats of violence (or actual violence) from the OM that come about as a result of exposing the affair to the OMW? WW brought up that point when I told her about the FB message and I had never really considered it before. Not super worried per se, just never really crossed my mind.


No...but you never know...it really depends on the OM's obession level with the relationship...if it was just a thing on the side: no...but if he really started idealizing life with you wife...you never know. Hope he is emotionally stable, cos you know what they say...the sickest people work in mental health.

In the OM's case, depending on how the wide responds, more than likely will be be in damage control mode, throwing your wife under the bus. In a very common scenario, if wife chooses to bail...(and I know this 'cos my wife worked mental health crisis)...husband may be suicidal...yet this usually applies to men blindsided by wife insisting on D, not necessarily nabbed WH.


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> So, when I got home from work today, there was a note waiting for me that WW had written. It moved me, so I wanted to share it with the people that are kind enough to read this thread:
> 
> _Nom_De_Guerre, my love,
> 
> ...


If she is so in love with you and have been from the start and her love has just grown through your M, then why would she have an A and why would she try to book a weekend with POS?

To me this message just reeks of manipulation and a bad try at that as well...


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

This guy should have his license taken away. This is the last person on earth that I would want as a marriage counselor. Where are his ethics? Reminds me of Corbin Bernsen from LA Law. I'm probably dating myself here.

Good luck to both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrs._Nom_De_Guerre said:


> I want to begin by saying that I did not come here to defend my actions. That is something that I cannot and will not do, because it isn't possible. I apologize in advance for the length of this as well.
> 
> In all of this, I am not blaming my husband at all for what I did. Prior to my EA (he was 100% correct in that it was not a PA), we were having communication issues. I completely take responsibility for my part in that. OM was simply there at the right time and said all the right things (which I've found out since then is extremely common). I made the decision to let things go too far and it was very inappropriate.
> 
> ...


From a man that has heard those words 3x before my wife cheated a 4th and final time *( at least the 4 I know of )*. Its hard to swallow.. 

You getting caught is the ONLY reason you feel the way you do. 
Only because your man is strong enough *( which I wasn't )* to kick you to the curb and show you he had no issues cutting you loose that you came crawling back.. 

*YOU LOVE HIM SO MUCH NOW ???* 

Sign a post nup stating that you will forego all assets and custody of the children if you ever cheat in any way shape or form again on him.. 

Lets face it if he is abusing you, then you can just leave and not cheat.. 

But if you LOVE him like you do.. Then signing that legal document should be a no brainer..

Forcing my Ex to sign a post nup was one of the things that help push her on going affair and fake reconciliation to light. She delayed it and delayed it until found other things out.

I know I loved my wife.. In many sad ways I still do.. Granted nothing that would make me want to be with her today or ever again. But I still do nonetheless. 

But I would have signed anything and done anything to keep my wife at the time. I would have eaten sh1t off the floor during those times to keep my wife and I was the betrayed spouse.. 

If I was the one cheating I would have sold my soul to keep her..

OP, Please, I know its hard.. But try to step back a bit and try to see with some clear eyes.. 

They pour on the love like your newly weds.. You're the best thing since slice bread today.. Sexually they do things for you the never did before in an attempt to show you how much they love you.. Even the moaning is louder.. and privates are now 3 inches bigger than 2 days ago.. 

Its all a scam.... 

My wifes honest complaint, I was on the computer too much.. She never told me to get off or griped about it. But low and behold come an affair that was the gripe at therapy.. 

My Ex made that complaint Sept 28, 2012.. Since that day I only go on the computer for TAM, some VERY LIGHT Facebook. That is IT.. 

My Ex left me and the kids ( yes my boys live with me ) to live with this POSOM April 2013...


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Hardtohandle said:


> From a man that has heard those words 3x before my wife cheated a 4th and final time *( at least the 4 I know of )*. Its hard to swallow..
> 
> You getting caught is the ONLY reason you feel the way you do.
> Only because your man is strong enough *( which I wasn't )* to kick you to the curb and show you he had no issues cutting you loose that you came crawling back..
> ...


The title of the thread wouldn't be "On the fence" if part of me didn't think that you were 100% spot-on with your analysis of the situation. That's what makes the concept of reconciliation a hard pill to swallow - the idea that I'll never be able to be *ABSOLUTELY* sure I can trust the things that Mrs. Nom_De_Guerre says possibly for the rest of my life is a painful one.

I will say that the "newlyweds" portion of your comment is right on though - that is how I've been feeling lately - like she's been pulling out all the stops to "win" me back. Again, I am of two minds. On one hand, I like the attention and it makes me feel good. But on the other, same as above, a little voice in the back of my head whispers "What if she's just doing it because she's sorry she got caught?" and "Am I going to be here again in another month or in a year, or 5 years?".


Also, I want to say that I read your story - it is heartbreaking. I am truly sorry that you had to go through what you did.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Nom,

Your WW seems to be doing the right things now, but her remorse will be a test of time.

If she is willing to accept all the consequences; if she consistently demonstrates love, affection, transparency, patience, sexual openness; if she is willing to discuss the A with you at any time - then you have a starting point for beginning R.

But you should be especially weary, because this is essentially a "third" chance for her. If you decide to R, let her know this is a trial. Take it day by day, week by week, month by month. Watch how she acts to see if she is consistent. Take your time to decide if you can go forward. No matter how much remorse she demonstrates, or for how long - she shouldn't blame you for changing your mind down the road. No one should blame you. I have been in R with my wife for 2 and a half years and that's the mindset I keep.

I think I could argue that my wife's betrayal was much worse than your wife's. A 2 year PA, planned as an exit affair. POSOM threw my wife under the bus after exposure. But she has not broken no-contact like your wife did; so to me, that puts your WW as high up on the severity scale.

That said, if you decide to R - try your best, to improve your own issues in the marriage. Be kind. Don't let the reason your R didn't succeed be - because your wife gave up hope on you.

Good luck to you no matter what your choice.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Nom_De_Guerre said:


> The title of the thread wouldn't be "On the fence" if part of me didn't think that you were 100% spot-on with your analysis of the situation. That's what makes the concept of reconciliation a hard pill to swallow - the idea that I'll never be able to be *ABSOLUTELY* sure I can trust the things that Mrs. Nom_De_Guerre says possibly for the rest of my life is a painful one.
> 
> I will say that the "newlyweds" portion of your comment is right on though - that is how I've been feeling lately - like she's been pulling out all the stops to "win" me back. Again, I am of two minds. On one hand, I like the attention and it makes me feel good. But on the other, same as above, a little voice in the back of my head whispers "What if she's just doing it because she's sorry she got caught?" and "Am I going to be here again in another month or in a year, or 5 years?".
> 
> ...


I'm just happy you have the common sense I didn't.. 

It did happen every 5 years and every time around our wedding anniversary of Sept.. 

I know people want to reconcile and even your wife might want this as well.. Who knows it could even be the shame of getting caught.. To be labeled that person in the end.. some people don't want that label.. So they fake it and then 12 months later they just say hey I'm just leaving you.. I am not cheating.. But I honestly realized this isn't for me.. 

They leave on the premise of having it working it out and being of clear thought and just realizing that they never wanted this marriage.. So at least everyone see's *"Hey she tried. That affair was long ago."*

Mind you I'm not a bitter man looking to have everyone get divorced and every woman is evil..

I am dating and what I consider a serious relationship with a wonderful woman.. I have issues, issues my Ex imposed on me by what she did and how she did this.. 

I do therapy every week. I had a lot of support beyond that.

I realize and completely understand parts of me are broken.. 

But I also come to realize that I can meet women and have met women who are in the same boat as me but honestly offer me much more then my Ex did.. 

And guess what, they never cheated on me. 

I'm sorry but at 46 heading towards 47, my eyes are wide open.. 

Like they say you can love a rich man as much as you love a poor man.. That goes both ways.. 

A friend of mine is with a woman 10 years younger after his divorce and she makes twice his money with a home and she is head over heels for him.. 

My friend had 3 cars, 2 homes on the way to buy a third.. He now lives in his mothers basement.. 

If you truly decide to reconcile.. Remember MC and IC are forever.. I truly believe if we continued MC and therapy even if on a quarterly basis, my Ex might have had an outlet to express something that she couldn't openly tell me and maybe we could have addressed the real issues before it went this way..

I could imagine your wife is reading my post and freaking out thinking here is this a$$hole trying to ruin my relationship and break us up.. 

Trust me when I say I want you two be happy forever.. I want you both to tell your kids, when they grow up and have these issues to be able to say Hey me and mom went through this.. This is what we did.. This is what we learned..

On incident number 3 with my Ex that is exactly what we discussed.. We sat there saying we will learn from this.. We will be stronger from this.. We will teach our kids what to do for their sake and the sake of their family in the future.. 

One day when we are older and at our kids wedding we will be able to laugh about this moment in our lives.. 

I remember these bonding moments with my Ex like they were yesterday.. 

ALL FVCKING LIES and false promises..


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## Mrs._Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 31, 2014)

Hardtohandle said:


> From a man that has heard those words 3x before my wife cheated a 4th and final time *( at least the 4 I know of )*. Its hard to swallow..
> 
> You getting caught is the ONLY reason you feel the way you do.
> Only because your man is strong enough *( which I wasn't )* to kick you to the curb and show you he had no issues cutting you loose that you came crawling back..
> ...



My efforts to show my husband how much he means to me have been out of nothing but love. I LOVE giving him the attention he deserves, and should have been doing so from the beginning instead of taking him for granted.

I actually did offer to sign something for him (he declined at the time), but I have absolutely no problem doing so. As I said, I am willing to do *anything* to let him know just how serious I am about making things work.

I am in this for the long haul. Working on our communication, going to MC (and probably IC), 100% transparency.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think the word 'inappropriate' doesn't begin to describe your WW's actions here. The selfishness and need for ego validation that drives the sort of thing that she has done doesn't just fix itself overnight. If it were me, the lying, cheating, and lying again would push me off the fence and into D territory. You are getting what looks like a full court press from her to convince you that she now sees the light. These are words, though. Her words haven't been reliable lately, have they?

If you want to try, take your time to decide. And watch the actions. Words are important, but they are cheap.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Mrs._Nom_De_Guerre said:


> My efforts to show my husband how much he means to me have been out of nothing but love. I LOVE giving him the attention he deserves, and should have been doing so from the beginning instead of taking him for granted.
> 
> I actually did offer to sign something for him (he declined at the time), but I have absolutely no problem doing so. As I said, I am willing to do *anything* to let him know just how serious I am about making things work.
> 
> I am in this for the long haul. Working on our communication, going to MC (and probably IC), 100% transparency.


I hope so.. 

I hope so for the sake of you both.. 

Remember Mrs. NDG, you are in your own fog as well. 

Lets face some facts.. Its not like this guy is right around the corner that you could just run off with him at a moments notice.. 

You got caught and are smart enough to understand that as well. Maybe..

Because your husband is a strong man that you had to make a split second decision.. Lets not kid each other.. He told you to GTFO.. He would have blown you up to everyone if you gave him issues.. No one wants this embarrassment, my Ex didn't.. 

You think my Ex didn't learn from her past experiences ? 
2 secret phones so when I caught her with the 1st one she had a backup.. 

If your husband started crying why, please no.. Right then and there you would have seen you had some wiggle room. 
But not when you get pack your sh1t and GTFO... Thats pretty crystal clear.. 

So now you're scrambling to *"FIX"* this.. It still doesn't mean you are thinking clearly..

That letter you wrote, though nice mentions nothing of what you did and how wrong you were.. 

It is obvious you were not thinking of that long night talk with your loving and faithful husband when you were chatting it up with this other Piece of Sh1t.. 

I cannot tell you how many people I have arrested that have told me I should go after the *"Real criminals"*

But I will say this..

Yes work this out if you both can.. But I would not emotionally invest anything further into this relationship until a year or so has passed.. A point where your head might be clear or more clear and then where maybe a honest discussion about the future of you two being together can be honest.. 

I can tell you I went to therapy with my Ex learned how to handle this emotional issues and then learned to suck up the triggers to make my marriage work.. 

Years later I would panic and I would just tell myself to STFU and suck it up.. What a fool I was the day my wife was in a hotel with his Other man I was freaking out due to my past insecurities and of course it was Sept. and my youngest son was wondering where mommy was as well, which was stressing me out.. 

I had to tell my son don't worry mommy will be home soon she is out with friends.. The reality is I was also telling myself that as well. How fvcking wrong I was.. 

Sadly my Ex forgot all about that stuff.. Her mentality is I should get over it..

LOL

It kills me and makes me cry at the same time.. 

But I care more about your husband then I do for you and that is straight and simple.. I can be 1000 miles away from but I feel his pain.. No matter how calm and cool and collected he might be.. 

But part of me is rooting for you both.. I do want someone to win when it comes to this Sh1t.. I want to believe that this just can't be it for so many people.. 

Knowing what I know today.. I would have had her move out.. I would have kept her at arms length and acted like we were separated and then a year later I would have seen if she really wanted to work this out again. 

At least then after being apart for a year, then if she really wanted to get back I can say she really wanted to be together with me. 

And if she didn't then I saved myself future heartache..


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

happi_g_more2 said:


> 100% Transparency goes a long long way. As does confirmation that SSDPOSOMW is well aware of his actions. (SSD = Super Super Duper since this A hole is a counselor and knew exactly what kind of evil he was perpetrating).



Any update on the FB post. Im guessing this is really not the right way to communicate this kind of thing. Paying a service to hand deliver the letter is probably a more secure approach. Anyway, just wanted to see if there was an update on this portion of the thread


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

No reply to my FB message as of yet, although it was marked as "seen" about 40 minutes after I sent it.

Yeah, certified mail is the way to go. Just figured reaching out and exposing via social media too wouldn't hurt.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The note you left your husband was very nice. But I saw no eplanation why you sought out an affair while you were married to the most wonderful man in the world...............twice.

Don't get me wrong, almost every reconcilliation here has two DDays. What's incomprehensible, is how you do this in the first place to your family, see his pain, and do it again.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

If your wife had the crying snot-blowing hysterical begging-you-to-stay reaction the FIRST time you caught her, I would believe her. But since she didn't care at all about it the first time, kept cheating, and there was a second d-day, I don't believe any of her reaction being sincere. The only thing that changed is YOUR REACTION in being done with her. If you had been "soft" again the second time, she would now be underground cheating on you for a third time.

Hardtohandle makes many very valid points.

Don't ignore the voice of experience.

I'm not saying to divorce, or not to divorce - I am saying GO SLOW and make herself prove it to you over a very long period of time. By cheating a second time, she has earned an extremely healthy dose of your skepticism.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> The note you left your husband was very nice. But I saw no eplanation why you sought out an affair while you were married to the most wonderful man in the world...............twice.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, almost every reconcilliation here has two DDays. What's incomprehensible, is how you do this in the first place to your family, see his pain, and do it again.


She has told me that during our many conversations that it was due to her emotional needs not being met in the marriage. Not that it makes it excusable, but that's the reason.



Will_Kane said:


> If your wife had the crying snot-blowing hysterical begging-you-to-stay reaction the FIRST time you caught her, I would believe her. But since she didn't care at all about it the first time, kept cheating, and there was a second d-day, I don't believe any of her reaction being sincere. The only thing that changed is YOUR REACTION in being done with her. If you had been "soft" again the second time, she would now be underground cheating on you for a third time.
> 
> Hardtohandle makes many very valid points.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree with this - my suspicion meter is in the red (and trust meter at or very near 0) at this point - despite the many words, letters, and other things she has done to show me that she is sincere. It will take a lot of time and effort to rebuild the trust.


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## Nom_De_Guerre (Jan 3, 2014)

Mrs. Nom_De_Guerre gave me a new ring tonight to replace my scratched and battered one (already my 4th ring in almost 6 years due to either me losing it or because of weight loss). This letter accompanied it:

_Nom_De_Guerre,

Nearly six years ago, I promised to love and cherish you forever. Through the years, we have had great times and, most recently, some very, very tough times. Through everything, you are still the man I want to spend the rest of my life with. In giving you this ring, it is a symbol of my unending love for you, and of my recommitment to us. You are my rock, my partner, my soul mate, best friend, and my true love. I love you more than anything and promise to spend every day of the rest of my life showing you just how much you mean to me. You are the best husband a woman could ever ask for, and I promise to never take you for granted again. The day I became your wife - Mrs. Nom_De_Guerre - was the happiest day of my life. I want to do all I can to make you as happy as I was that day. I love you._

At this point, I have taken badmemory's advice to heart and said that we can take R day by day with absolutely no expectations on a timeline for recovery. That being said, she is aware that there is very little room for error and I will be expecting her to do a lot of the heavy lifting in repairing our broken relationship.

We will be attending MC as well as part of the recovery process.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

NDG - It is going to be HARD. It will take time, and it will get easier, but it probably won't ever be easy. 

With regard to the "heavy lifting", you're absolutely correct in that much of it should be squarely placed on Mrs. NDG's shoulders, but you're going to have to help her. It's not an easy thing for a BS to admit but, as it's been quoted in numerous threads across TAM, I'll share it here: Your spouse is 100% accountable for her affair. You are, however, 50% accountable for creating an environment -- whether passively or actively -- in which the potential for your spouse to stray came about. (Obviously this is a very broad statement and doesn't apply to every single situation involving marital infidelity, so take it/leave it as appropriate.) Based on this, you may have some things to work on yourself.

You will trigger. You will have bad days. Some of them will be harder than others. On some days you may not be able to function at all. Learn to deal with your triggers as constructively as you can. Take note of any lingering questions that come about as a result, and communicate them openly -- and calmly -- w/ your spouse.

Cast aside anything that is purely punitive. It won't help either of you.

100% transparency will be critical in the days/weeks/months (and even years) ahead. Passwords to EVERYTHING should be freely shared. There are also other measures that can be taken (GPS in vehicle(s), elimination of "girls' night out" type gatherings, etc.) -- whether or not you feel that these things should apply here is really up to you. Having said that, reluctance on the part of your spouse to entertain what you feel to be reasonable requests should be met w/ nothing less than suspicion on your part.

She is going to hate herself. Don't let her. We all make mistakes. It just happens that infidelity is one of the most soul-crushingly painful mistakes that a spouse can make.

Best of luck to you both.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs._Nom_De_Guerre said:


> OM is a young male therapist (including MC), and I would sometimes talk to him in between client sessions.


Oh wow, what a gem this guy must be. I guess that, since he wasn't being paid, there was no need to exercise ethics...?!?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs. NDG - This is going to be HARD, especially for your spouse. It will take time, and it will get easier for him, but it won't ever be easy. 

I’m sort of new here, so maybe it doesn’t say as much to some of the veterans that it does to me, but I applaud your presence here. Don’t get me wrong — you’re going to take a beating. Steel yourself for this. You may not feel obligated to provide an answer to every question that everyone throws at you but you better believe this — if someone here poses a question that your husband hadn’t previously considered, you WILL have to provide an answer to HIM.

Own what you did. Don’t shirk from it, deny any part of it, or attempt to downplay any of it. Answer any and all questions that your husband has. He will have many, some of them may seem trivial on the surface, and sometimes the answers will be hard, but your honesty will be crucial. “Trickle-truthing” will only make things worse. Much, much worse.

Do not — under any circumstances — defend the OM or his actions. He willfully engaged in an inappropriate relationship w/ a married woman. This is made all the worse by the fact that he himself is a marriage counselor. Now, it’s true that this doesn’t matter within the context of your marriage. After all, OM didn’t betray your husband, you did. OM betrayed his own spouse/SO. Still, he’s a morally reprehensible mound of feces.

You husband will trigger. He will have bad days. Some of them will be harder than others. On some days he may not be able to function at all. Help him with this. If he needs space, give it to him. Likewise, if he wants your companionship, give it to him.

100% transparency will be critical in the days/weeks/months (and even years) ahead. Passwords to EVERYTHING should be freely shared. (Sorry, threads seem to all run together after a while, it seems like you have addressed/are addressing this.) Your husband may also make other requests of you (i.e. GPS in vehicle(s), elimination of "girls' night out" type gatherings, etc.); any reluctance on your part to comply with what your husband feels to be reasonable requests will likely be met w/ suspicion — or even a trigger — on his part.

Understand this — you have absolutely destroyed the trust on which your relationship w/ your husband was based. Because of this, he doesn’t know how much of what you’re now saying that he can believe. If you are truly committed to reconciliation, you are going to have to be very, Very, VERY patient w/ him. That trust didn’t happen overnight, and it won’t be rebuilt overnight. It may even take longer to rebuild than it took to initially establish. BE PATIENT.

You will hate herself. Try not to. You’re going to have to forgive yourself at some point. We all make mistakes, it just happens that infidelity is one of the most soul-crushingly painful mistakes that a spouse can make.

Again, best of luck to you both.


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