# Alimony Question



## theguynextdoor (May 19, 2018)

Folks,

Need your advice. 11+ years marriage coming to an end. We are working through a mediator to craft out a separation agreement. Have 1 child 9 years old. Custody is going to be 50:50.

Question is this. Assume all other assets are being split 50:50. STBXW earns 2.5 times more than me. I am asking for both CS and Alimony (32.5%). STBXW is raising hell and doesn't want to pay the alimony. Ok to pay CS though.

What are the reasons where I can be denied any alimony. In conversations with 2 separate attorneys they are saying this is a open and shut case and given our disparity in incomes, I can easily claim alimony. 

What am I missing? Is STBXW getting bad financial advise from family, attorneys? Both of us want to avoid litigation and go through mediation.

Thanks!


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

theguynextdoor said:


> Folks,
> 
> Need your advice. 11+ years marriage coming to an end. We are working through a mediator to craft out a separation agreement. Have 1 child 9 years old. Custody is going to be 50:50.
> 
> ...


There are a couple of lawyers and an accountant who regularly post on this forum.All of them agree that when one partner is pushing for mediation rather than litigation then they have the most to lose.
Who’s idea was mediation?
Let your ex know your requirements and tell her to make an acceptable offer or you will let a judge decide.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

You are in Mass right? Alimony isn’t open and shut at all. What are your combined salaries? If it is under $250k and you have kids then it can be ruled CS only. I made 100% of the income and pay $0 in alimony and HE pays CS (it is pocket change but he was still order to pay it). Are these lawyers you had conversations with friends or people you were interviewing to hire?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Were you ever stay at home dad? Do you have a full time job? Are you disabled? Why would you need alimony?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

i guarantee if the shoe was on the other foot she would be screaming that she is entitled to alimony...i would go full ligation if she does not accept alimony. basically call her bluff.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

theguynextdoor said:


> Folks,
> 
> Need your advice. 11+ years marriage coming to an end. We are working through a mediator to craft out a separation agreement. Have 1 child 9 years old. Custody is going to be 50:50.
> 
> ...


The rules vary from state to state, but if two separate lawyers told you it was "open and shut", then I think that you should have the upper hand. (Unless the lawyers you have talked to were totally incompetent.) I assume these lawyers who advised you were formally advising you, right? I don't put much stock in an informal "cocktail party" analysis, or a "hey what do you think?" question to a friend or acquaintance. They need to have some skin in the game when they advise you. 

Assuming these were "official" opinions, then I suspect you are encountering the all-too-common double standard where people (predominantly women, but not always), are resistant to following the same alimony rules that would be applied if the sexes were reversed. Her attorney may not be as competent and so may be putting these ideas in her head. More commonly, though, it that it is your STBXW that is the unreasonable one, and her attorney is quite willing to support her in her stance---all for generous billing per hour charges, of course.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

theguynextdoor said:


> Folks,
> 
> Need your advice. 11+ years marriage coming to an end. We are working through a mediator to craft out a separation agreement. Have 1 child 9 years old. Custody is going to be 50:50.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of things that are taken into consideration. Since we don't know that details of your financial situation, it's hard for us to help you with this except to tell you to learn as much as you can about your divorce laws and consult an attorney.

There is most likely a distinction on whether or not you were a stay-at-home parent who now needs help to get training and get into a job.

https://www.apmillerlawgroup.com/blog/2018/january/how-long-can-alimony-payments-last-in-massachuse/

https://www.mass.gov/service-details/learn-about-the-types-of-alimony


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm no help, alimony isn't paid in Australia, nor should it be.

Why do you need it?


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

theguynextdoor said:


> Folks,
> 
> Need your advice. 11+ years marriage coming to an end. We are working through a mediator to craft out a separation agreement. Have 1 child 9 years old. Custody is going to be 50:50.
> 
> ...


If you don't need the alimony, or haven't made some huge sacrifice that allowed her to acquire the income she now has, then you'd be a tool to require it to be paid.

If you made 2.5 times more than her, would you want her to rake you over the coals for 30% of your income just because she could? What would that say about her? Or you, in this case.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

BioFury said:


> If you don't need the alimony, or haven't made some huge sacrifice that allowed her to acquire the income she now has, then you'd be a tool to require it to be paid.
> 
> If you made 2.5 times more than her, would you want her to rake you over the coals for 30% of your income just because she could? What would that say about her? Or you, in this case.



Well, that's a case for ending ALL alimony for either sex (which I overall agree with). But if the laws haven't changed yet to prevent alimony, then I think he should follow the rules as they currently stand. Even if that is to his advantage.

If a basketball player thinks the 3-point shot rule out to be changed, that doesn't mean he is a hypocrite to shoot a 3-point shot while the rule still stands. He has to play with the rules as they are.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

frusdil said:


> I'm no help, alimony isn't paid in Australia, nor should it be.
> 
> Why do you need it?



"To keep him in the style of life to which he has been accustomed."

Isn't that the rationale given usually?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

BioFury said:


> If you don't need the alimony, or haven't made some huge sacrifice that allowed her to acquire the income she now has, then you'd be a tool to require it to be paid.
> 
> If you made 2.5 times more than her, would you want her to rake you over the coals for 30% of your income just because she could? What would that say about her? Or you, in this case.


sadly that has ALWAYS been the approach women have have over their husband for decades...they want to maintain the lifestyle they have been accustomed too, and it has historically been the men that have been the major breadwinner and the wives who has made less of an income...but now that the trend is changing suddenly women are up in arms...what a much hypocrites....and maybe he has helped her get where she is....i know men who helped their wives through medical and law school only to get dump after.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

theguynextdoor said:


> Question is this. Assume all other assets are being split 50:50. STBXW earns 2.5 times more than me. I am asking for both CS and Alimony (32.5%). STBXW is raising hell and doesn't want to pay the alimony. Ok to pay CS though.


Why the hell should she have to pay *you *alimony just because she's worked hard to get where she's at in her career? Like someone else said, unless you chose to be a stay at home dad, ethically, you aren't entitled to SQUAT.

So you think that just because your marriage is ending, she should *continue *handing you money solely because she makes more than you do? Seriously?

Well, if you *do* get one of those liberal judges up in Mass to actually award you alimony, I'll bet you'll be beating the chicks off with a stick when they find out that your ex wife STILL has to partially support you with monthly alimony because she had the fortitude to make something of herself professionally while you chose not to.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Lostinthought61 said:


> sadly that has ALWAYS been the approach women have have over their husband for decades...they want to maintain the lifestyle they have been accustomed too, and it has historically been the men that have been the major breadwinner and the wives who has made less of an income...but now that the trend is changing suddenly women are up in arms...what a much hypocrites....and maybe he has helped her get where she is....i know men who helped their wives through medical and law school only to get dump after.


And there are tons of women who make all kinds of sacrifices in order for their husbands to advance in their careers.

We all *know *that historically, it's pretty much always been the woman to sacrifice building herself any kind of a career when they decide she'll be the one to stay home with the kids - whether it's 7 or 8 years or 20 years. It's HER career (or lack thereof) that's always going to take the hit. Not HIS.

And it's reality that while hubby is busy climbing the corporate ladder and gaining knowledge, experience, skills, stature and EARNING POTENTIAL, the wife is in limbo changing diapers and scrubbing toilets while she's *LOSING* marketability every day/month/year she's home.

Most women can't support themselves on the crappy paying jobs they're forced to take after having been home for 7 or 10 or 14 years raising their kids! And unless the OP is in the same exact position - he forfeited the chance to have a career to stay home and change diapers and scrub toilets for 7+ years - then he's not *entitled* to part of her salary simply because she got the education and put in the hard work to EARN it.

Don't misunderstand - women who milk their husbands dry with alimony *just* because they can get it are a different story. I'm not talking about those types who somehow managed to get themselves a shark lawyer who took their husbands to the cleaners and who now live off _his_ sweat doing nothing all day but spending *his* money. I'm talking about the *majority* of women who are forced back out into the workplace with a resume that says 'homemaker' for the last 10 years or so. Last time I looked, high paying jobs requiring _that _particular skill set are very far and few between.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

BioFury said:


> If you don't need the alimony, or haven't made some huge sacrifice that allowed her to acquire the income she now has, then you'd be a tool to require it to be paid.
> 
> If you made 2.5 times more than her, would you want her to rake you over the coals for 30% of your income just because she could? What would that say about her? Or you, in this case.


I disagree. Laws are passed and those are the rules that we live by.



Lostinthought61 said:


> sadly that has ALWAYS been the approach women have have over their husband for decades...they want to maintain the lifestyle they have been accustomed too, and it has historically been the men that have been the major breadwinner and the wives who has made less of an income...but now that the trend is changing suddenly women are up in arms...what a much hypocrites....and maybe he has helped her get where she is....i know men who helped their wives through medical and law school only to get dump after.


Sadly, I also think that this is standard protocol for the typical female. But when the shoe is on the other foot... 

IMO, what's good for the goose is good for the gander and vice versa.

Consult with your attorneys on the local rules and what the family court judges are awarding in your jurisdiction. Go for that, and if you feel like it, you can always cut her a break. 

Keep in mind that if she intends on fighting you the whole way, then you also need to weigh what you think it is going to cost you both in attorney's fees, aggravation and stress to get it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Anytime someone uses the word "always" to describe what the other gender does, I know they've been reading too much Reddit lol


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

I think this varies by state. In CA where I got divorced the LAW was that the breadwinner had to keep their spouse in the lifestyle to which he or she had grown accustomed and if the marriage was over 10 years, you could be ordered that for the rest of your life. 

Regardless, attorneys told me the reality was the court would take one look at him and say "why are you not working?" and order him to go find a job ASAP and any alimony that was awarded would be reduced once he got the job.

As for your ex raising holy hell over this, it probably depends on WHY she was the main breadwinner. If it was because you simply weren't ambitious and were happy to take a smaller paycheck while she worked harder and longer and took more risks, then I see her point from an emotional standpoint (but it's probably moot legally). On the other hand, if you sacrificed your career opportunities to put her through college and training and/or took a back seat financially so you could help take care of the household, children, family, live where she wanted, etc. - or even just because she said "Hey, I'm making a boat load, do whatever you want work-wise." then she has no legitimate reason getting bent because that's what alimony is for. To help the partner who put their career on hold to participate in other ways get back on their feet.

Regardless, if your attorneys are telling you she doesn't have a leg to stand on legally, they are probably right.



theguynextdoor said:


> Folks,
> 
> Need your advice. 11+ years marriage coming to an end. We are working through a mediator to craft out a separation agreement. Have 1 child 9 years old. Custody is going to be 50:50.
> 
> ...


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

One reason I can see for alimony when there are kids is to ensure that the two houses are comparable for the child. If one house is a mansion and the other is a run-down apartment, it will affect the child's relationship to that parent. So towards that goal, instead of alimony, try to get more in CS. In addition, have her contribute to a 529 college plan so that college funding is taken care of (perhaps up to some max like $100k).


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Tron said:


> I disagree. Laws are passed and those are the rules that we live by.


You're essentially saying "If you can, you should". Which is ludicrous.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Get whatever you are entitled to by law. If some people don’t like that, petition for fairer laws!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

BioFury said:


> You're essentially saying "If you can, you should". Which is ludicrous.


No, but taking the position that, just because the STBXW is upset about it, that the OP should bend over while she takes him to the cleaners isn't a good bargaining position to start from.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Wow - you sound angry. 

ALL women don't ALWAYS make the same choices.

Personally, I think each individual situation should be taken into account. Who's asking for the divorce? What are the circumstances? 

I don't know what the laws were in my state, but I am the one who asked for the divorce, and I didn't ask for anything from my ex-husband.

The house we were living in was paid for 100% with my inheritance. I voluntarily gave him half, yet by law, I could've reclaimed that. I also set up prepaid college funds and 529 accounts for each child. He didn't contribute anything to those either.

Still, he managed to see himself as a victim who was being taken advantage of.

I could be totally wrong, but I don't think the law requires anyone to _accept/take_ alimony. 




Lostinthought61 said:


> sadly that has ALWAYS been the approach women have have over their husband for decades...they want to maintain the lifestyle they have been accustomed too, and it has historically been the men that have been the major breadwinner and the wives who has made less of an income...but now that the trend is changing suddenly women are up in arms...what a much hypocrites....and maybe he has helped her get where she is....i know men who helped their wives through medical and law school only to get dump after.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

If OP was a female, I guarantee we'd be hearing different responses. I think Alimony is mostly ludicrous, but without knowing their situatuon and in the spirit of sexual equality, I'd say go for it. Milk her dry.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If OP was a female, I guarantee we'd be hearing different responses. I think Alimony is mostly ludicrous, but without knowing their situatuon and in the spirit of sexual equality, I'd say go for it. Milk her dry.


Yup.

I’d be willing to join any female led organization willing to advocate for true equality. That’s what they wanted, right?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

minimalME said:


> Wow - you sound angry.
> 
> ALL women don't ALWAYS make the same choices.
> 
> ...


I'm not angry, and i have never been divorced, but i have had several friends and colleagues that have gotten divorced...i am just pointing to how their divorce decree ended up...it seems as though my statement hit a nerve close to home and i sincerely apologize for your strife. now if you live in ca. and you are married more than 10 years...alimony is almost automatic.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

OnTheFly said:


> Get whatever you are entitled to by law. If some people don’t like that, *petition for fairer laws*!


I agree with this, I pay Alimony to my X 3 years worth and it was completely unneeded as she has a Job she can support herself with, hold a degree, very generous child support despite 50/50 and received over 6 figures cash while moving right in with her affair partner in a much larger/nicer house than we shared. they live a much more expensive lifestyle than i do but it would have cost me more to fight it than to just suck it up and pay. 

You need to just get the best settlement you can get and run with it in order to move on best in your life, plenty of woman have taken alimony in similar situations and not been judged or felt guilty so i say go for it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think alimony is ridiculous. MAYBE if the couple agreed that the woman was a SAHM she should get TEMPORARY support until she can find a job/career that is full time. But "just because" or "so she can have the big house too"?? Nope.

Life changes when people divorce. And one of those changes is often that the woman needs to get a full time job. Especially if kids are at least school age, that shouldn't be a problem.

I think unless there is some VERIFIABLE issue, custody should be 50/50 in every divorce. Men get screwed out of parenthood in our court system.

That said.....the generalizations about women by the usual suspects are laughable and expected.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> .....the generalizations about women by the usual suspects .....


please tell me I'm one of the 'usual suspects'.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Spousal support was originally put into law based on the assumption that a certain lifestyle was achieved during the marriage, and a subsequent divorce would result in the partner at the financial disadvantage having a step down in lifestyle. I have heard both sexes feel put upon having to support the other spouse after divorce. Spousal support, can be a forever thing, based on the length of the marriage. AND this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Most, however, have a formula to follow in calculating spousal support. It is ALWAYS in your best interest to take this matter up with your attorney. Given that you are in the negotiation stage of the divorce, and I note that you are using a mediator in negotiating this. I therefore urge you to consult an attorney. You may need to spend a few dollars, however, this is not sitting well with me. Mediated divorces are wonderful if both parties are pretty much equals. I have seen more disastrous results as the more financially advantaged spouse forces mediation, and circumvents the rights of the spouse with less advantage. Sorry, but I believe that in this circumstance with a gigantic difference in earnings, you absolutely need the protection that proper legal representation can provide. Yup, they cost money, because they are worth it, if they keep you from being hamstrung for the next 20 years.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Tron said:


> I disagree. Laws are passed and those are the rules that we live by.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually it's not "standard protocol for the typical female".

Alimony is awarded in only 15% of divorces. The average alimony is about $300 a month and lasts for 6 months or less. Very few divorces end up with big alimony payments for years.

Today most married women work. About half of all married women earn as much or more than their husbands.

In most divorces today, the wife is able to support herself. She's not given up a career as was once the norm in marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lostinthought61 said:


> I'm not angry, and i have never been divorced, but i have had several friends and colleagues that have gotten divorced...i am just pointing to how their divorce decree ended up...it seems as though my statement hit a nerve close to home and i sincerely apologize for your strife. now if you live in ca. and you are married more than 10 years...alimony is almost automatic.


California is moving towards having a requirement for the recipient of alimony having to become self-sufficient in a reason amount of time. The Role of the "Self-Support Goal" in Awarding and Modifying Alimony Awards

One way to establish his precedent in a divorce is to add what is called a "Gavron warning" in the divorce. 

It's called that after a man named Gavron who won a case ending his ex-wife's alimony because she did not take adequate steps to become self supporting in a reasonable time after their divorce.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > .....the generalizations about women by the usual suspects .....
> ...


 If you are a suspect, does that mean I can interrogate you under harsh lighting and beat you with a rubber hose lol?


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> OnTheFly said:
> 
> 
> > personofinterest said:
> ...


Um, of course!


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Actually it's not "standard protocol for the typical female".
> 
> Alimony is awarded in only 15% of divorces. The average alimony is about $300 a month and lasts for 6 months or less. Very few divorces end up with big alimony payments for years.
> 
> ...


I Wish I had been average at this :crying:


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