# False Reconciliation without all the Facts



## MAJDEATH

Can you truly and completely R without all the pertinent facts, so you can make an informed decision? I get the impression that it is common for a FWS to leave out lots of relationship info with their AP. And how would you know for sure that you had it all, short of a lie detector test? In my case, I wouldn't have even thought to add questions about things I had no clue about, like multiple OM, activities in the house, substance abuse, not using protection, etc.


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## GusPolinski

MAJDEATH said:


> *Can you truly and completely R without all the pertinent facts, so you can make an informed decision?* I get the impression that it is common for a FWS to leave out lots of relationship info with their APs. And how would you know for sure that you had it all, short of a lie detector test? In my case, I wouldn't have even thought to add questions about things I had no clue about, like other APs, activities in the house, substance abuse, not using protection, etc.


Nope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ripper

GusPolinski said:


> Nope.


/end thread.


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## TAMAT

Majdeath,

You can recover without all the trivial facts, if your spouse is willing to tell you them as they recall them, for example if you are about to go into a restaurant where WW dined with OM she needs to let you know. 

The major facts being concealed would prevent complete recovery, including but not exhaustive, 

* people who knew or aided the affair.

* sexual details if they were asked for

* how much money was spent on the affair.

* the length of the affair

* number of affair partners

* identity of the affair partner

Frankly in your case the polygraph is called for just so you can move forward, I think you will get a few parking lot confessions. Although it will not be everything, it will relieve your W of the details which still weigh heavily on her conscience.

Tamat


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## ConanHub

GusPolinski said:


> Nope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ditto.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH

TAMAT said:


> Majdeath,
> 
> You can recover without all the trivial facts, if your spouse is willing to tell you them as they recall them, for example if you are about to go into a restaurant where WW dined with OM she needs to let you know.
> 
> The major facts being concealed would prevent complete recovery, including but not exhaustive,
> 
> * people who knew or aided the affair.
> 
> * sexual details if they were asked for
> 
> * how much money was spent on the affair.
> 
> * the length of the affair
> 
> * number of affair partners
> 
> * identity of the affair partner
> 
> Frankly in your case the polygraph is called for just so you can move forward, I think you will get a few parking lot confessions. Although it will not be everything, it will relieve your W of the details which still weigh heavily on her conscience.
> 
> Tamat


Without knowing for sure, I believe I have received all of the basic A information you have on your list. There may be a few people who knew or aided that have moved out of the area. And amazingly, many of the bars/restaurants that they frequented have been torn down or changed into a different business altogether. Perhaps some divine intervention? 
I drove past the old house the other day and when I got home, I asked the W how she feels about seeing it, because now I have mixed emotions: partly positive for all of the good times and fun when my family was young, and negative knowing all of the AP activities that went down in there while I was gone. She says she feels the same way now that I do, which was both surprising but appreciated because before she always spoke so fondly of the old house.


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## MAJDEATH

Now that I have all (or most) of the facts surrounding the relationships with the OM, should she be surprised if I decide that filing for D is the correct next step for me? 
Of course she would internalize this and believe that she should not have told me about all of the OM and the details of each, instead of blaming herself for the immense extent of her infidelity.


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## ConanHub

MAJDEATH said:


> Now that I have all (or most) of the facts surrounding the relationships with her APs, should she be surprised if I decide that filing for D is the correct next step for me?
> Of course she would internalize this and believe that she should not have told me about all of the APs and the details of each, instead of blaming herself for the immense extent of her infidelity.


If that is her attitude then she is unchanged, unremorseful and has wasted an opportunity to become a better person while you gave her more than a second chance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

Ya one needs all the fact...everything....and you know it's all out there and the complete truth has been laid out cuz the crap the wayward is telling you is so painful and so horribly graphic that telling the betrayed is a risk the wayward knows will break them and face the consequences of losing their marriage by owning the shame in telling their betrayed spouse everything.

BTW...Feb. 12th dday +6yrs....today I can't think of any better reason to pull my old ladies panties down and spank her!


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## lexis

MAJDEATH said:


> Now that I have all (or most) of the facts surrounding the relationships with her APs, should she be surprised if I decide that filing for D is the correct next step for me?
> Of course she would internalize this and believe that she should not have told me about all of the APs and the details of each, instead of blaming herself for the immense extent of her infidelity.


If you decided to file for divorce then it doesn't matter what she thinks anymore.


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## the guy

TAMAT said:


> Majdeath,
> 
> You can recover without all the trivial facts, if your spouse is willing to tell you them as they recall them, for example if you are about to go into a restaurant where WW dined with OM she needs to let you know.
> 
> The major facts being concealed would prevent complete recovery, including but not exhaustive,
> 
> * people who knew or aided the affair.
> 
> * sexual details if they were asked for
> 
> * how much money was spent on the affair.
> 
> * the length of the affair
> 
> * number of affair partners
> 
> * identity of the affair partner
> 
> Frankly in your case the polygraph is called for just so you can move forward, I think you will get a few parking lot confessions. Although it will not be everything, it will relieve your W of the details which still weigh heavily on her conscience.
> 
> Tamat


That's it in a nut shell.
Some folk here are so in the dark ...hell they may never know the full extent of their wayward's affair.

From were I'm sitting,me and OP know a hell of a lot more about our old ladies A's then some betrayed here at TAM....IDK if thats a good thing or a bad thing.


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## MAJDEATH

the guy said:


> TAMAT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Majdeath,
> 
> You can recover without all the trivial facts, if your spouse is willing to tell you them as they recall them, for example if you are about to go into a restaurant where WW dined with OM she needs to let you know.
> 
> The major facts being concealed would prevent complete recovery, including but not exhaustive,
> 
> * people who knew or aided the affair.
> 
> * sexual details if they were asked for
> 
> * how much money was spent on the affair.
> 
> * the length of the affair
> 
> * number of affair partners
> 
> * identity of the affair partner
> 
> Frankly in your case the polygraph is called for just so you can move forward, I think you will get a few parking lot confessions. Although it will not be everything, it will relieve your W of the details which still weigh heavily on her conscience.
> 
> Tamat
> 
> 
> 
> That's it in a nut shell.
> Some folk here are so in the dark ...hell they may never know the full extent of their wayward's affair.
> 
> From were I'm sitting,me and OP know a hell of a lot more about our old ladies A's then some betrayed here at TAM....IDK if thats a good thing or a bad thing.
Click to expand...

I may have more information about my W's relationships than 99% of all BS. I am very analytical and asked lots of both initial and follow-up questions. I recorded notes and log books, with histories and timelines running concurrent to where I was and my activities. I then compared my case studies to interviews with others to remove incorrect dates/places/facts based on faulty memory or other legitimate reasons.
I think for her it was cathartic to finally get it off her chest, but for me it might make a good nonfiction novel on advice for betrayed husbands.


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## the guy

Thats the thing...your case study consists of one experience and one variable ...your old lady!

I'm thinking one could make a nonfictional novel about TAM's CWI section and make some money. LOL

This infidelity bullshyt has so many variables that a newbie comes here and really has sift through the replies to figure out what will work for them.

One thing is for sure....d-day is a gut tearing experience that all us betrayed have felt!


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## MJJEAN

MAJDEATH said:


> *Can you truly and completely R without all the pertinent facts, so you can make an informed decision? *I get the impression that it is common for a FWS to leave out lots of relationship info with their APs. And how would you know for sure that you had it all, short of a lie detector test? In my case, I wouldn't have even thought to add questions about things I had no clue about, like other APs, activities in the house, substance abuse, not using protection, etc.


I think the BS needs what s/he considers all of the pertinent information in order to make an informed decision. What is pertinent is different for everybody. Some people want all the details. Some only want to know the bare minimum.


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## the guy

I'm curious to hear from folks that are still in the dark but their wayward spouse has made the changes.

I mean my old lady changed her way of life...but if i didn't hear the timeline, who they were, were they did it, and what they did...it would not matter how submissive she was to save the marriage....I'd bail.


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## WasDecimated

My thought is you can't R without all the facts. The amount of detail will be up to the individual.

I didn't get the answers I needed so I filed for D. I knew that I couldn't move forward without them and she seemed to want to take some of her secrets to her grave. Unfortunately, these were the ones that I needed answered. Apparently XWW thought me divorcing her was easier then having to tell me the truth. All I can think is that it must have been some nasty stuff.

If I had decided to continue to R, eventually I would have to forgive her. Without knowing the extent of her cheating and lies, I could not. 

Like you said...you need all the facts to make an informed decision. I don't know why anyone would stick around and attempt to R without all the facts. A new beginning needs to start with openness and honesty. Without that, nothing has changed.


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## MAJDEATH

lexis said:


> If you decided to file for divorce then it doesn't matter what she thinks anymore.


If you have kids together then it always matters what she thinks/believes.


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## MAJDEATH

MJJEAN said:


> I think the BS needs what s/he considers all of the pertinent information in order to make an informed decision. What is pertinent is different for everybody. Some people want all the details. Some only want to know the bare minimum.


My W and I are way different on what pertinent information was required/requested. I wanted nearly everything, while she was satisfied with general information.


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## MAJDEATH

Smarter people than I have suggested making a list of all questions that you need answers to, prior to even considering a R. Then set a reasonable time line for completion of the Q&A sessions, with additional time for follow up and/or clarifications.
I wish I would have done this the first time (in 2006).


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## MAJDEATH

touba said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> My W and I are way different on what pertinent information was required/requested. I wanted nearly everything, while she was satisfied with general information.
> 
> 
> 
> She's the one who cheated, right?
> 
> It's not up to her what information is provided.
> 
> Not if she expects you to stick around.
Click to expand...

We both had post-separation relationships.


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## ManiacalMama

I'm pretty sure I don't have all the facts/details. I'm pretty sure he withholds info because he thinks it will hurt me more. And it probably would. He has only admitted to what he knows I know (I'm a really good sleuth though). R has been going on for a little over 3 years. We backslid a few times over some very questionable behaviors. I decided to leave it alone for a while and stop micromanaging. He's gonna do what he's gonna do. I haven't had the balls to leave yet, and honestly don't know if I will.

True reconciliation can't happen unless complete transparency is there. Unless the betrayed doesn't want the transparency. If they are willing to overlook it, I suppose it is within the realm of possibility.


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## DoneWithHurting

I didn't get much info. I knew who AP was and he got repercussions.
Kids, Business, family... all so intertwined. 
I was on the fence for a few years.
She doesn't have to tell me everything.
I have a vivid imagination and believe what i imagine is what happened. (vomit emoji)

I took my revenge. Bulked up my masculinity and moved forward in my life, which she is still part of.
Total trust? no. but i learned that you really cant trust anyone 100%.

Her own family has recently betrayed her so she is getting a taste now of what it feels like.


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## MAJDEATH

I talked to my W about this last night. She is adamant that based on what she has studied/analyzed/learned, the WS should never provide details of the A, that it cannot help and will only hurt the chances of a successful R. She regrets that she ever told me.


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## ConanHub

MAJDEATH said:


> I talked to my W about this last night. She is adamant that based on what she has studied/analyzed/learned, the WS should never provide details of the A, that it cannot help and will only hurt the chances of a successful R. She regrets that she ever told me.


You're wife has shown herself a tremendous fool on far more than one occasion.

I would never take advice from her about infidelity or marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH

ConanHub said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> I talked to my W about this last night. She is adamant that based on what she has studied/analyzed/learned, the WS should never provide details of the A, that it cannot help and will only hurt the chances of a successful R. She regrets that she ever told me.
> 
> 
> 
> You're wife has shown herself a tremendous fool on far more than one occasion.
> 
> I would never take advice from her about infidelity or marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

I disagree with her on this issue. I understand that the level of facts/details required may be different for each person, but there should be a basic level of admitting to infidelity, demonstrating remorse, providing a genuine apology, agreeing to write a mutual no-contact letter, etc. 
My point being-how can you write a no-contact letter for the BS to approve before sending, without admitting to and naming an AP?


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## ConanHub

MAJDEATH said:


> I disagree with her on this issue. I understand that the level of facts/details required may be different for each person, but there should be a basic level of admitting to infidelity, demonstrating remorse, providing a genuine apology, agreeing to write a mutual no-contact letter, etc.
> My point being-how can you write a no-contact letter for the BS to approve before sending, without admitting to and naming an AP?


Well you can't. Your wife is still trying to rationalize things from a cheaters mindset. Selfish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## memorylanee12ln

To Decimated, thanks for simply telling it like it is. I am a BW and my WH thought it is ridiculous of me to know everything before we reconcile. I told him to come clean if he wants us to start over again. But, in his words, he can't tell me everything to save me from the pain. I am not looking for that R anytime soon.


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## memorylanee12ln

To Decimated, thanks for simply telling it like it is. I am a BW and my WH thought it is ridiculous of me to know everything before we reconcile. I told him to come clean if he wants us to start over again. But, in his words, he can't tell me everything to save me from the pain. I am not looking for an R anytime soon.


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## ConanHub

DoneWithHurting said:


> I didn't get much info. I knew who AP was and he got repercussions.
> Kids, Business, family... all so intertwined.
> I was on the fence for a few years.
> She doesn't have to tell me everything.
> I have a vivid imagination and believe what i imagine is what happened. (vomit emoji)
> 
> I took my revenge. Bulked up my masculinity and moved forward in my life, which she is still part of.
> Total trust? no. but i learned that you really cant trust anyone 100%.
> 
> Her own family has recently betrayed her so she is getting a taste now of what it feels like.


You apparently got what you wanted. If you wanted all the information, she needed to supply it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAMAT

MAJDEATH,

You wrote, *I talked to my W about this last night. She is adamant that based on what she has studied/analyzed/learned, the WS should never provide details of the A, that it cannot help and will only hurt the chances of a successful R. She regrets that she ever told me. *

From what I believe I understand about your recovery, you would have gotten a divorce had there not been relatively full disclosure. So does your wife feel that *Given the choice of divorce or disclosure, she would choose divorce. *

Tamat


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## MAJDEATH

TAMAT said:


> MAJDEATH,
> 
> You wrote, *I talked to my W about this last night. She is adamant that based on what she has studied/analyzed/learned, the WS should never provide details of the A, that it cannot help and will only hurt the chances of a successful R. She regrets that she ever told me. *
> 
> From what I believe I understand about your recovery, you would have gotten a divorce had there not been relatively full disclosure. So does your wife feel that *Given the choice of divorce or disclosure, she would choose divorce. *
> 
> Tamat


I believe she would say that it's not that simple. Full disclosure would most likely end in D, say 90%, especially if done soon after the A. If a BS asks for full disclosure, and you don't provide it (or wait several years/TT), there is a moderate chance of D, say 50%. 
So based on this analogy, if you cheated but want to try save your marriage, besides admitting to the A, asking for forgiveness, and demonstrating genuine remorse, you should not disclose full details for a greater chance at avoiding D.


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## MAJDEATH

ConanHub said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> I talked to my W about this last night. She is adamant that based on what she has studied/analyzed/learned, the WS should never provide details of the A, that it cannot help and will only hurt the chances of a successful R. She regrets that she ever told me.
> 
> 
> 
> You're wife has shown herself a tremendous fool on far more than one occasion.
> 
> I would never take advice from her about infidelity or marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

5 other couples (dealing with infidelity) within our extended family have received counseling from her, and all were able to successfully R. 2 of them were in divorce court when they initially contacted her. Granted, this is a small sample. 
She believes that it is imperative to "give back" the knowledge and experience she has gained in these matters, with the goal of saving marriages. She asks them up front, "do you want to save your marriage?". If the answer is no, she cannot help them.


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## ConanHub

MAJDEATH said:


> 5 other couples (dealing with infidelity) within our extended family have received counseling from her, and all were able to successfully R. 2 of them were in divorce court when they initially contacted her. Granted, this is a small sample.
> She believes that it is imperative to "give back" the knowledge and experience she has gained in these matters, with the goal of saving marriages. She asks them up front, "do you want to save your marriage?". If the answer is no, she cannot help them.


I have been doing this for nearly twenty years.

Your wife has more than one screw loose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH

ConanHub said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 5 other couples (dealing with infidelity) within our extended family have received counseling from her, and all were able to successfully R. 2 of them were in divorce court when they initially contacted her. Granted, this is a small sample.
> She believes that it is imperative to "give back" the knowledge and experience she has gained in these matters, with the goal of saving marriages. She asks them up front, "do you want to save your marriage?". If the answer is no, she cannot help them.
> 
> 
> 
> I have been doing this for nearly twenty years.
> 
> Your wife has more than one screw loose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

ConanHub I don't remember, but aren't you a divorced man? I guess you needed more help than just your experience/knowledge.


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## TAMAT

MAJDEATH,

You wrote, *5 other couples (dealing with infidelity) within our extended family have received counseling from her*

And did she advise them not to disclose details? 

I guess that's an issue with me, because I had a very serious illness about 10 years ago. It looked like I would die soon, my W broke down and another woman comforted her. 

My W told me that, the OW confessed that when her own husband was also sick she had an affair. What do you think the probability is that she told my W to NEVER confess or tell any details.? I find it very difficult to believe that this woman confessed to my W without my W confessing to her. For my W this was an enormous revelation btw, it is a family trait.

There is also the problem of someone else knowing more about your marriage than you do. 

Tamat


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## MAJDEATH

MAJDEATH said:


> TAMAT said:
> 
> 
> 
> MAJDEATH,
> 
> You wrote, *I talked to my W about this last night. She is adamant that based on what she has studied/analyzed/learned, the WS should never provide details of the A, that it cannot help and will only hurt the chances of a successful R. She regrets that she ever told me. *
> 
> From what I believe I understand about your recovery, you would have gotten a divorce had there not been relatively full disclosure. So does your wife feel that *Given the choice of divorce or disclosure, she would choose divorce. *
> 
> Tamat
> 
> 
> 
> I believe she would say that it's not that simple. Full disclosure would most likely end in D, say 90%, especially if done soon after the A. If a BS asks for full disclosure, and you don't provide it (or wait several years/TT), there is a moderate chance of D, say 50%.
> So based on this analogy, if you cheated but want to try save your marriage, besides admitting to the A, asking for forgiveness, and demonstrating genuine remorse, you should not disclose full details for a greater chance at avoiding D.
Click to expand...

She advised all 5 to not reveal details of infidelity if they were truly seeking R. If they didn't care or were seeking a D, she could neither assist them nor tell them to keep the details to themselves. In fact, she would say that if you want to drive your spouse to D faster, tell them all the details about your infidelities, especially the sexual comparisons!


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## MAJDEATH

TAMAT said:


> MAJDEATH,
> 
> You wrote, *5 other couples (dealing with infidelity) within our extended family have received counseling from her*
> 
> And did she advise them not to disclose details?
> 
> I guess that's an issue with me, because I had a very serious illness about 10 years ago. It looked like I would die soon, my W broke down and another woman comforted her.
> 
> My W told me that, the OW confessed that when her own husband was also sick she had an affair. What do you think the probability is that she told my W to NEVER confess or tell any details.? I find it very difficult to believe that this woman confessed to my W without my W confessing to her. For my W this was an enormous revelation btw, it is a family trait.
> 
> There is also the problem of someone else knowing more about your marriage than you do.
> 
> Tamat


Personally, I hate it when someone else knows more about my personal business than I do, and my W knows this. We don't talk about finances, kids, sexual practices, etc. with others. That's what trusted, long-term counselors and covenant spouses are for.


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## ConanHub

MAJDEATH said:


> She advised all 5 to not reveal details of infidelity if they were truly seeking R. If they didn't care or were seeking a D, she could neither assist them nor tell them to keep the details to themselves. In fact, she would say that if you want to drive your spouse to D faster, tell them all the details about your infidelities, especially the sexual comparisons!


If a BS wants details a WS gives details or is not remorseful and still trying to manipulate the situation and their BS for an outcome desirable to them. Unhealthy in the extreme to start a new foundation on more bvllshyt.

I've seen near miraculous results with the exact opposite applied.

Your wife believes lying, manipulation and deceit to keep a marriage is a desirable outcome and that speaks worlds about her extremely unhealthy thought process about what a marriage even is.

She is still a cheater at heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH

ConanHub said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> She advised all 5 to not reveal details of infidelity if they were truly seeking R. If they didn't care or were seeking a D, she could neither assist them nor tell them to keep the details to themselves. In fact, she would say that if you want to drive your spouse to D faster, tell them all the details about your infidelities, especially the sexual comparisons!
> 
> 
> 
> If a BS wants details a WS gives details or is not remorseful and still trying to manipulate the situation and their BS for an outcome desirable to them. Unhealthy in the extreme to start a new foundation on more bvllshyt.
> 
> I've seen near miraculous results with the exact opposite applied.
> 
> Your wife believes lying, manipulation and deceit to keep a marriage is a desirable outcome and that speaks worlds about her extremely unhealthy thought process about what a marriage even is.
> 
> She is still a cheater at heart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

A counselor friend of mine suggested that the WS should only provide answers that will lead to the desired outcome of R, and they will know what information will be too detrimental for the BS to recover from. Is it deceit, yes. But for a positive purpose. Or they could simply say they had an A, but now it's over. The WS knows the level of deceit with the AP, and knows what it takes to get over it.
Isn't a marriage a desirable outcome for both parties, especially when children are involved?


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## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> A counselor friend of mine suggested that the WS should only provide answers that will lead to the desired outcome of R, and they will know what information will be too detrimental for the BS to recover from. Is it deceit, yes. But for a positive purpose. Or they could simply say they had an A, but now it's over. The WS knows the level of deceit with the AP, and knows what it takes to get over it.
> Isn't a marriage a desirable outcome for both parties, especially when children are involved?


Bull****.

A reconciliation based on lies is no reconciliation. 

Tell your counsellor he's full of **** and should stop 'helping' people. Seriously. I have a great MC, and she says the exact opposite of your 'friend.'


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## Pluto2

Are you honestly suggesting that a spouse should lie for the good of a marriage? What do you think will happen if (and it has been shown it is much more likely to be when) the BS discovers the truth. What kind of marriage do you think will be the result then? Would it not be better and healthier to trust your spouse with the truth?


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## Steve1000

GusPolinski said:


> Nope.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Virtually no one will ever have all the facts. If your point is that no one can ever have a true happy reconciliation, I might agree. I'm still undecided.


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## Marduk

Steve1000 said:


> Virtually no one will ever have all the facts. If your point is that no one can ever have a true happy reconciliation, I might agree. I'm still undecided.


No-one can have all the facts. But you can have _enough_ facts.

For some it's knowing when, how, and what kind of sex they had while cheating. In minute details. For others, it's just knowing that they had sex. Or not. Everybody has their own amount of detail that will suffice.

Saying it wasn't physical when it was, or lying about any of it when asked... Or saying that they won't tell you...

All takes reconciliation off the table. Don't ask a betrayed spouse to do all the work to reconcile after your affair, and then not give them the facts. Or do what happens to some -- have it come out months or years later, and then have to go through it all over again.


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## Steve1000

MAJDEATH said:


> Smarter people than I have suggested making a list of all questions that you need answers to, prior to even considering a R. Then set a reasonable time line for completion of the Q&A sessions, with additional time for follow up and/or clarifications.
> I wish I would have done this the first time (in 2006).


I did manage to do this, but the results still weren't that helpful. I found out much later that while most of her answers were truthful, it wasn't 100%. Also, as you can imagine, her answers lead to multiple more questions. The other big problem is that I didn't have enough information to know everything that I should be asking about.


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## Marduk

Steve1000 said:


> I did manage to do this, but the results still weren't that helpful. I found out much later that while most of her answers were truthful, it wasn't 100%. Also, as you can imagine, her answers lead to multiple more questions. The other big problem is that I didn't have enough information to know everything that I should be asking about.


Then you should leave her and not look back.


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## michzz

To me, the ultimate goal of disclosure is to allow the betrayed spouse to live in the truth of their life. It is respectful. The ultimate goal is NOT reconciliation. Sure, a cheating spouse can want reconciliation. the betrayed spouse can want that too.

But without the truth? True reconciliation, a partnership of equals is impossible.

I know this from hard personal experience. My ex-wife dodged the truth, misleading me, refusing to name the jerk she cheated with, insisting it was a one-time thing. Minimizing all the time, even as she kind of apologized.

in reality? it took me 8 more years to finally stop the charade by lying to hre, bluffing that i knew who it was and how long it was happening, but i wanted it out of her own mouth or we divorce.

She bought the bluff and named him and admitted to many years of cheating. I was floored, i was sure it was a matter of weeks or a month or two tops. It took me several more years to divorce her (unemployment and son's health and flat out shock on my part slowed me down a lot).

Could we have reconciled with the truth at an earlier time? Possibly, but she was trying to convince me it was long over when she was still cheating.

She was using me economically and for reputation. Since our divorce I have remarried and have a wonderful wife now. The ex is still living down the loss of her reputation as a "good" woman. She isn't one, but wants to be seen as one. so she has run away to an area where she can be a "crystal healer" and nobody knows her true life story.

She doesn't need alimony but the courts gave it to her anyway so she spends it on trips to Brazil or whatnot attending new age crap.

I grumble about the economic unfairness of the support for an evil person. But I have not had to run away to hide from the truth. I live it every day. And that started with knowing the name of the guy and the severity of the offence.


----------



## Steve1000

marduk said:


> Or do what happens to some -- have it come out months or years later, and then have to go through it all over again.


That's a difficult part to deal with. For example, in my case, she cheated during the early part of our relationship (first four months) with a guy that she clearly liked more than me at the time. She told me that she would only date me if I agreed to try to have kids if we got married as we were both early 40s. 

One year after we reconciled, I found out the the OM had had a vasectomy before she ever met him and she knew it. The news was another gut punch, but not much for me to say about it. I already knew by that time that she had stopped dating him because he was not interested in a real relationship with her. 

I decided after that that I will make the best of our relationship and enjoy it as much as possible, but the only way to avoid dealing with it internally everyday is to someday end the relationship.


----------



## Marduk

Steve1000 said:


> That's a difficult part to deal with. For example, in my case, she cheated during the early part of our relationship (first four months) with a guy that she clearly liked more than me at the time. She told me that she would only date me if I agreed to try to have kids if we got married as we were both early 40s.
> 
> One year after we reconciled, I found out the the OM had had a vasectomy before she ever met him and she knew it. The news was another gut punch, but not much for me to say about it. I already knew by that time that she had stopped dating him because he was not interested in a real relationship with her.
> 
> I decided after that that I will make the best of our relationship and enjoy it as much as possible, but the only way to avoid dealing with it internally everyday is to someday end the relationship.


No time like the present.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Steve1000

marduk said:


> Then you should leave her and not look back.


D-day was over two years ago. We have since married so I only have myself to blame. I must say that after D-day, she has been 100% transparent and a nice, warm and stable wife.


----------



## Marduk

Bull****. 

If she were transparent she'd tell you the truth without hesitation. 

If she were a nice warm stable wife, it wouldn't have happened to begin with. 

The time you're wasting is your own. 

You get one life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MAJDEATH

Pluto2 said:


> Are you honestly suggesting that a spouse should lie for the good of a marriage? What do you think will happen if (and it has been shown it is much more likely to be when) the BS discovers the truth. What kind of marriage do you think will be the result then? Would it not be better and healthier to trust your spouse with the truth?


I would wait 3x the length of the A, before even beginning to go down that road toward R. The WS needs time to demonstrate their commitment towards honest recovery, and they must pay a penenance for their wicked ways. 6 month affair, 18 months before even attempting R, assuming they will even entertain that notion.


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> I would wait 3x the length of the A, before even beginning to go down that road toward R. The WS needs time to demonstrate their commitment towards honest recovery, and they must pay a penenance for their wicked ways. 6 month affair, 18 months before even attempting R, assuming they will even entertain that notion.


That makes zero sense.


----------



## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> No-one can have all the facts. But you can have _enough_ facts.
> 
> For some it's knowing when, how, and what kind of sex they had while cheating. In minute details. For others, it's just knowing that they had sex. Or not. Everybody has their own amount of detail that will suffice.
> 
> Saying it wasn't physical when it was, or lying about any of it when asked... Or saying that they won't tell you...
> 
> All takes reconciliation off the table. Don't ask a betrayed spouse to do all the work to reconcile after your affair, and then not give them the facts. Or do what happens to some -- have it come out months or years later, and then have to go through it all over again.


Word.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MAJDEATH

I was so young and naive, I didn't even know what questions to ask before considering R. That fault kept me from following thru with D before my W could demonstrate genuine remorse.


----------



## MAJDEATH

marduk said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would wait 3x the length of the A, before even beginning to go down that road toward R. The WS needs time to demonstrate their commitment towards honest recovery, and they must pay a penenance for their wicked ways. 6 month affair, 18 months before even attempting R, assuming they will even entertain that notion.
> 
> 
> 
> That makes zero sense.
Click to expand...

The WS needs to work on themselves during that time, what's not to understand? Fully end the A, get into IC/MC, do some soul searching to get at the root problems, etc. This takes time.


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> The WS needs to work on themselves during that time, what's not to understand? Fully end the A, get into IC/MC, do some soul searching to get at the root problems, etc. This takes time.


Waiting 18 months to begin a reconciliation so the wayward can pay penance?

The time they're wasting isn't their own to waste.

Reconciliation can begin the day that everybody lays the facts on the table and after that, deciding that they want to try.


----------



## MAJDEATH

marduk said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> The WS needs to work on themselves during that time, what's not to understand? Fully end the A, get into IC/MC, do some soul searching to get at the root problems, etc. This takes time.
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting 18 months to begin a reconciliation so the wayward can pay penance?
> 
> The time they're wasting isn't their own to waste.
> 
> Reconciliation can begin the day that everybody lays the facts on the table and after that, deciding that they want to try.
Click to expand...

Most often, negative behaviors by both parties have happening for years in a marriage before a spouse will begin to be open up to the possibility of having an affair. That dynamic cannot be fixed quickly, just by relaying the facts of the affair. The underlying issues that led to the affair must be addressed first, prior to any R attempts. This takes time and effort.


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> Most often, negative behaviors by both parties have happening for years in a marriage before a spouse will begin to be open up to the possibility of having an affair. That dynamic cannot be fixed quickly, just by relaying the facts of the affair. The underlying issues that led to the affair must be addressed first, prior to any R attempts. This takes time and effort.


I agree with that, I just can't connect it to spending months/years as penance.

What happens to the betrayed spouse? Do they sit around wasting their life just to see if the cheater really means that they've realized the error of their ways?

Man, there's no way I'd wait around 18 months 'just to see' after my wife cheated on me. She either sees the error of her ways right away, and I believe she's going to try... Or I don't.

It doesn't mean that you aren't watchful, or cautious, or need them to prove themselves.

I guess I would just need for us both to be all in, or all out.


----------



## ReturntoZero

marduk said:


> I agree with that, I just can't connect it to spending months/years as penance.
> 
> What happens to the betrayed spouse? Do they sit around wasting their life just to see if the cheater really means that they've realized the error of their ways?
> 
> Man, there's no way I'd wait around 18 months 'just to see' after my wife cheated on me. She either sees the error of her ways right away, and I believe she's going to try... Or I don't.
> 
> It doesn't mean that you aren't watchful, or cautious, or need them to prove themselves.
> 
> I guess I would just need for us both to be all in, or all out.


My wife and I had a 3 year separation. Some of it was really nice. Getting to date her again and have regular hot sex was something to look forward to every other day.

I wouldn't have waited without the physical aspect of our relationship being sustained.


----------



## matrixx

MAJDEATH said:


> 5 other couples (dealing with infidelity) within our extended family.


Either you've got a HUGE extended family, or you've got a disproportionate amount of cheating. Makes me wonder if there's a genetic component to it.


----------



## MarriedDude

MAJDEATH said:


> A counselor friend of mine suggested that the *WS should only provide answers that will lead to the desired outcome of R*, and they will know what information will be too detrimental for the BS to recover from. *Is it deceit, yes. But for a positive purpose.* Or they could simply say they had an A, but now it's over. The WS knows the level of deceit with the AP, and knows what it takes to get over it.
> Isn't a marriage a desirable outcome for both parties, especially when children are involved?


Awesome. 

"I only Lie/Deceive/embellish/hide to protect the ones I love" 

But of course.


----------



## MAJDEATH

MarriedDude said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> A counselor friend of mine suggested that the *WS should only provide answers that will lead to the desired outcome of R*, and they will know what information will be too detrimental for the BS to recover from. *Is it deceit, yes. But for a positive purpose.* Or they could simply say they had an A, but now it's over. The WS knows the level of deceit with the AP, and knows what it takes to get over it.
> Isn't a marriage a desirable outcome for both parties, especially when children are involved?
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome.
> 
> "I only Lie/Deceive/embellish/hide to protect the ones I love"
> 
> But of course.
Click to expand...

Someone once said "being told you have been cheated on is worse than being told your spouse has died". We often keep bad news from children, the elderly, and those in poor health. Why? Because we know how devastating extremely troubling news is and we decide it is better for the person not to know, at least for the time being.


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> Someone once said "being told you have been cheated on is worse than being told your spouse has died". We often keep bad news from children, the elderly, and those in poor health. Why? Because we know how devastating extremely troubling news is and we decide it is better for the person not to know, at least for the time being.


And I told my children that Santa Claus was real. 

I don't try to tell adults that Santa Claus was real, and make life decisions around him being real.

Do you see the difference?

The difference -- and I'm frankly surprised by your disturbing stance -- is that _I don't get to decide for you what's real._


----------



## MAJDEATH

Is it alright for the wife to say to the husband at the friday night dinner table "So how was your day (wait for him to finish his answer).... Do you remember Mike from work, well we used to do it doggystyle, bareback, on old grandma edith's tombstone at the cemetery every Thursday night after work, but now we've stopped and I want to reconcile. Would you like more gravy?"


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> Is it alright for the wife to say to the husband at the friday night dinner table "So how was your day (wait for him to finish his answer).... Do you remember Mike from work, well we used to do it doggystyle, bareback, on old grandma edith's tombstone at the cemetery every Thursday night after work, but now we've stopped and I want to reconcile. Would you like more gravy?"


What she should say is "We need to talk. I had an inappropriate relationship with Mike from work. I'll tell you as much or as little as you need to know, but you do need to know that we had sex, I thought I loved him, and now it's over and I want to try to make the marriage work but only if you are willing to. I'm sorry this happened, and my decisions were my accountability."

You know, like a grown up.

Listen man. I don't quite know what you're getting after here. But there's no way you can withhold details of an affair while trying to maintain the moral high ground.

All that is is intellectual and ethical weakness and rationalization.


----------



## TAMAT

Majdeath,

I do have to agree there is a time element to recovery from affairs, how long it went unconfessed or undiscovered, how long the affair was, etc. Perhaps, depending on the equation, a 5 year long affair undiscovered for 5 years will never be recovered from. Two years for most betrayed spouses is only a minimum.

Tamat


----------



## MAJDEATH

marduk said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it alright for the wife to say to the husband at the friday night dinner table "So how was your day (wait for him to finish his answer).... Do you remember Mike from work, well we used to do it doggystyle, bareback, on old grandma edith's tombstone at the cemetery every Thursday night after work, but now we've stopped and I want to reconcile. Would you like more gravy?"
> 
> 
> 
> What she should say is "We need to talk. I had an inappropriate relationship with Mike from work. I'll tell you as much or as little as you need to know, but you do need to know that we had sex, I thought I loved him, and now it's over and I want to try to make the marriage work but only if you are willing to. I'm sorry this happened, and my decisions were my accountability."
> 
> You know, like a grown up.
> 
> Listen man. I don't quite know what you're getting after here. But there's no way you can withhold details of an affair while trying to maintain the moral high ground.
> 
> All that is is intellectual and ethical weakness and rationalization.
Click to expand...

This in no way gets at the heart of the matter-why she cheated? What was the underlying reason for infidelity? The blame for her behavior in the affair is 100% hers, but the blame for the underlying problem in the marriage is 50/50 hers and his. I don't believe you can add the sting of a confessed affair to the equation, before you work on the underlying problem. This should be a 4 step process:
1 End the affair and cut all ties - you cannot work on the underlying issues while still in the fog (your head/emotions are all scrambled up), not to mention it is flat out wrong
2 Get to work on addressing the underlying issues in the relationship, if the partners cannot, will not, or don't want to, then it's time to start the D process
3 Recommit to making the positive changes in your relationship, to begin "phase II" of your marriage, and enjoy the new you and her dynamic
4 Once you can understand the underlying reasons for problems you used to have in the M (but no longer have and you can see the difference with time), then you can show the clear connection to why 1 party would want to have an affair, and it will make sense. Details about the A can then be shared, and the sting will be greatly reduced because the BS understands the why, but also has benefited from a positive turn to the M and wants to continue


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> This in no way gets at the heart of the matter-why she cheated? What was the underlying reason for infidelity? The blame for her behavior in the affair is 100% hers, but the blame for the underlying problem in the marriage is 50/50 hers and his. I don't believe you can add the sting of a confessed affair to the equation, before you work on the underlying problem. This should be a 4 step process:
> 1 End the affair and cut all ties - you cannot work on the underlying issues while still in the fog (your head/emotions are all scrambled up), not to mention it is flat out wrong


Correct.


> 2 Get to work on addressing the underlying issues in the relationship, if the partners cannot, will not, or don't want to, then it's time to start the D process


Non sequitur. You cannot resolve issues in a past -> present sequence, you must work your way backward. You do not start with the first problem in the relationship, you start with the most recent critical one.

Starting with the elephant in the room -- the affair.

Plus, you have to give back what you've taken away -- the ability to make a fully informed decision about the rest of their life. Affairs have an element of informational fraud about them -- you don't start fixing fraud by talking about what led up to it. You start fixing fraud by giving back what you took.

And you missed the whole "maybe we both need to get STD tests thing."



> 3 Recommit to making the positive changes in your relationship, to begin "phase II" of your marriage, and enjoy the new you and her dynamic


Which can't begin with a lie. Because it all will be a lie.



> 4 Once you can understand the underlying reasons for problems you used to have in the M (but no longer have and you can see the difference with time), then you can show the clear connection to why 1 party would want to have an affair, and it will make sense. Details about the A can then be shared, and the sting will be greatly reduced because the BS understands the why, but also has benefited from a positive turn to the M and wants to continue


BS. The sting will be 1000x worse, because you will have just drug them through the mud, and cleaned off, and you just threw them back in it.

You seem to get a sense that the person having the affair gets to make all the decisions for both parties. Why is that? Especially given the power asymmetry involved?


----------



## MAJDEATH

marduk said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone once said "being told you have been cheated on is worse than being told your spouse has died". We often keep bad news from children, the elderly, and those in poor health. Why? Because we know how devastating extremely troubling news is and we decide it is better for the person not to know, at least for the time being.
> 
> 
> 
> And I told my children that Santa Claus was real.
> 
> I don't try to tell adults that Santa Claus was real, and make life decisions around him being real.
> 
> Do you see the difference?
> 
> The difference -- and I'm frankly surprised by your disturbing stance -- is that _I don't get to decide for you what's real._
Click to expand...

It is only real if you know about it. I did things while I was deployed overseas in the military that my W will never know about. But if I walk into a room full of soldiers (and a few of them knew of me from my time overseas) and without saying a word, they are super respectful (bordering on scared sh_tl ess) because they know the real me, and what I am capable of. Other soldiers are nonchalant around me.


----------



## ConanHub

marduk said:


> What she should say is "We need to talk. I had an inappropriate relationship with Mike from work. I'll tell you as much or as little as you need to know, but you do need to know that we had sex, I thought I loved him, and now it's over and I want to try to make the marriage work but only if you are willing to. I'm sorry this happened, and my decisions were my accountability."
> 
> You know, like a grown up.
> 
> Listen man. I don't quite know what you're getting after here. But there's no way you can withhold details of an affair while trying to maintain the moral high ground.
> 
> All that is is intellectual and ethical weakness and rationalization.


He is probably gathering research for his WW to write her book or "he" actually is his wife gathering research.

She should call her book "The Cheaters Handbook" how to fvck around on your spouse and then lie and manipulate them into staying if you are found out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MAJDEATH

ConanHub said:


> marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> What she should say is "We need to talk. I had an inappropriate relationship with Mike from work. I'll tell you as much or as little as you need to know, but you do need to know that we had sex, I thought I loved him, and now it's over and I want to try to make the marriage work but only if you are willing to. I'm sorry this happened, and my decisions were my accountability."
> 
> You know, like a grown up.
> 
> Listen man. I don't quite know what you're getting after here. But there's no way you can withhold details of an affair while trying to maintain the moral high ground.
> 
> All that is is intellectual and ethical weakness and rationalization.
> 
> 
> 
> He is probably gathering research for his WW to write her book or "he" actually is his wife gathering research.
> 
> She should call her book "The Cheaters Handbook" how to fvck around on your spouse and then lie and manipulate them into staying if you are found out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

ConanHub, at least you are consistent.


----------



## MAJDEATH

marduk said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> This in no way gets at the heart of the matter-why she cheated? What was the underlying reason for infidelity? The blame for her behavior in the affair is 100% hers, but the blame for the underlying problem in the marriage is 50/50 hers and his. I don't believe you can add the sting of a confessed affair to the equation, before you work on the underlying problem. This should be a 4 step process:
> 1 End the affair and cut all ties - you cannot work on the underlying issues while still in the fog (your head/emotions are all scrambled up), not to mention it is flat out wrong
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Get to work on addressing the underlying issues in the relationship, if the partners cannot, will not, or don't want to, then it's time to start the D process
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Non sequitur. You cannot resolve issues in a past -> present sequence, you must work your way backward. You do not start with the first problem in the relationship, you start with the most recent critical one.
> 
> Starting with the elephant in the room -- the affair.
> 
> Plus, you have to give back what you've taken away -- the ability to make a fully informed decision about the rest of their life. Affairs have an element of informational fraud about them -- you don't start fixing fraud by talking about what led up to it. You start fixing fraud by giving back what you took.
> 
> And you missed the whole "maybe we both need to get STD tests thing."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3 Recommit to making the positive changes in your relationship, to begin "phase II" of your marriage, and enjoy the new you and her dynamic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which can't begin with a lie. Because it all will be a lie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 Once you can understand the underlying reasons for problems you used to have in the M (but no longer have and you can see the difference with time), then you can show the clear connection to why 1 party would want to have an affair, and it will make sense. Details about the A can then be shared, and the sting will be greatly reduced because the BS understands the why, but also has benefited from a positive turn to the M and wants to continue
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> BS. The sting will be 1000x worse, because you will have just drug them through the mud, and cleaned off, and you just threw them back in it.
> 
> You seem to get a sense that the person having the affair gets to make all the decisions for both parties. Why is that? Especially given the power asymmetry involved?
Click to expand...

If you start off with an Affair confession, the BS will never see past it, to address the underlying problems. The mind movies and speculation are a killer to R. It's addressing a symptom of the relationship, not the problems in the relationship. I guess if your goal is to never try to R and you want a quick D, then follow Marduk's method and lead with a full confession with details. If R is your intent, follow my recommended path. Do you want to save your marriage or not?


----------



## ConanHub

MAJDEATH said:


> ConanHub, at least you are consistent.


Yup. I pretty much promote honesty in marriage.

I promote taking an honest look at infidelity without blowing rainbows up your butt to make you feel better about eating a pile of steaming bvllshyt.

You, via your WW, apparently advocate deceit upon deceit for a good marriage.

You have such a great track record and so does she. Why wouldn't anyone agree that lying your ass off, by omission or otherwise, to your spouse, is a great idea?

Why even come clean? Why not just cheat without getting caught?

As long as your spouse doesn't know, you have a good marriage right?

You advocate building a marriage on a foundation of lies after it was already damaged by a foundation of lies.

Pure brilliance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

MAJDEATH said:


> If you start off with an Affair confession, the BS will never see past it, to address the underlying problems. The mind movies and speculation are a killer to R. It's addressing a symptom of the relationship, not the problems in the relationship. I guess if your goal is to never try to R and you want a quick D, then follow Marduk's method and lead with a full confession with details. If R is your intent, follow my recommended path. Do you want to save your marriage or not?


You are seriously ill. I have helped fully restore marriages with absolute honesty as the foundation.

It is up to the BS, not the WS, to determine what they need to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TAMAT

MAJDEATH,

I think I have rarely read of a full confession right at the moment of discovery, it often takes months, years or even decades for the full truth or adequate truth to come out. I would define full truth here as the wayward spouse telling everything they remember at the detail level requested. 

Tamat


----------



## MarriedDude

MAJDEATH said:


> *It is only real if you know about it.* I did things while I was deployed overseas in the military that my W will never know about. But if I walk into a room full of soldiers (and a few of them knew of me from my time overseas) and without saying a word, they are super respectful (bordering on scared sh_tl ess) because they know the real me, and what I am capable of. Other soldiers are nonchalant around me.


Unfortunately, just because you don't know about it it is still real and has an affect. 

Even taking your example (which I understand very well)...it doesn't work. The things we do...do things to us. These experiences change us and our view of the world and those around us. The experiences of a WS and a BS change them and their view of themselves and each other...It's through this changed perception that they now have to relate to one another. Without the truth -it's nearly impossible to rectify these new lives. 

I believe you know that. But the truth has an ability to both help and give insight while hurting and shattering our understanding...


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> If you start off with an Affair confession, the BS will never see past it, to address the underlying problems. The mind movies and speculation are a killer to R. It's addressing a symptom of the relationship, not the problems in the relationship. I guess if your goal is to never try to R and you want a quick D, then follow Marduk's method and lead with a full confession with details. If R is your intent, follow my recommended path. Do you want to save your marriage or not?


If you're having an affair, it's not your initial decision to reconcile or not.

Let me repeat this:
*If you're the one having an affair, it's not your initial decision to reconcile or not.*

It's the betrayed spouse's initial decision. Why? Because at the end of the day, the betraying spouse deceived the betrayed spouse with the express result to take away their ability to make a full and complete decision about their future.

Then the affair partner gets to decide if they want to reconcile.

Because it's fraud, pure and simple. 

The game you're playing is simply this: I get to commit marital fraud by pretending to have fidelity when I don't, and then take away your ability to make decisions about their own future so I can simultaneously reap the rewards of being married and being single, while taking that abilility away from you, and then not deal with the consequence of that because you might leave me.

In other words, the person lies to get what they want while still reaping the rewards of pretending they didn't. And your position is to maintain that.

Your stance has zero ethical grounding.

I seriously question your thinking and hope that you reconsider it.


----------



## matrixx

MAJDEATH said:


> It is only real if you know about it.


Are you suggesting that an affair is not real if it's kept from the betrayed spouse?

Sounds like you're burying your head in the sand. "If I don't see it, then it's not there!".

It's real. Even if you don't know about it. It affects the way she is with you, it affects your entire relationship, and as one example I can think of, if you catch an STD from her, you'll suffer real pain and consequences and health issues from it, even if you never know where you got it from.


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> It is only real if you know about it. I did things while I was deployed overseas in the military that my W will never know about. But if I walk into a room full of soldiers (and a few of them knew of me from my time overseas) and without saying a word, they are super respectful (bordering on scared sh_tl ess) because they know the real me, and what I am capable of. Other soldiers are nonchalant around me.


I finally understand now. 

You're better than everyone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MAJDEATH

marduk said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is only real if you know about it. I did things while I was deployed overseas in the military that my W will never know about. But if I walk into a room full of soldiers (and a few of them knew of me from my time overseas) and without saying a word, they are super respectful (bordering on scared sh_tl ess) because they know the real me, and what I am capable of. Other soldiers are nonchalant around me.
> 
> 
> 
> I finally understand now.
> 
> You're better than everyone else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

Better than some, worse than others.

I guess the main question is: would you be more upset about the betrayal of an affair, or the betrayal of not telling you about an affair?


----------



## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> Better than some, worse than others.
> 
> I guess the main question is: would you be more upset about the betrayal of an affair, or the betrayal of not telling you about an affair?


I'm actually genuinely more upset that there's people like you running around who think they get to define reality for other humans.


----------



## ConanHub

All I know is I have a radically different philosophy and a way better marital track record.

I do appreciate your service to our country.

I have a lot of close friends and relatives that are veterans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MAJDEATH

marduk said:


> I'm actually genuinely more upset that there's people like you running around who think they get to define reality for other humans.


The question wasn't directed at you Marduk, but this one is: How many times have you been divorced (is that real enough for your standards)?


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## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> The question wasn't directed at you Marduk, but this one is: How many times have you been divorced (is that real enough for your standards)?


Once.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

I can't imagine wasting this much of my life on a cheater. At the end of the day, if you were cheated on, and feel that your WS hasn't fully come clean...leave. If you were cheated on, and can't get past it...leave. To stay with someone, and torment yourself every single day over the affair, is just no way to live.  This is why it's a deal breaker for many (for me)...I would never trust the guy again, nor feel the same about the relationship. I could forgive, but it'd be over. To each their own, but to let an affair rob you of your own life and happiness seems like such a shame.


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## *Deidre*

opuss said:


> Last night MAJDEATH finally had enough of his doubts and he confronted his wife and said "I want the truth, are you having another affair?"
> 
> She started to reply but he couldn't hear what she was saying so he then said "Take that guys D!ck out of your mouth I can't understand what you're saying."


lol you're silly


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## happy as a clam

Thirty-three threads...

Why do you continue to torment yourself with this??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH

"The power to question is the basis of all human progress" - Indira Gandhi


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## MAJDEATH

opuss said:


> "The power to suck a lot of penis is the basis of my progress"
> 
> -MAJDEATH's wife


Goodbye, you'll be banned again! I wonder what username you'll use next time? Bandit? Bandwagon?


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## MAJDEATH

Everybody is an tough guy....behind a keyboard. E-thugs of the world unite!


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## MAJDEATH

*Deidre* said:


> I can't imagine wasting this much of my life on a cheater. At the end of the day, if you were cheated on, and feel that your WS hasn't fully come clean...leave. If you were cheated on, and can't get past it...leave. To stay with someone, and torment yourself every single day over the affair, is just no way to live.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is why it's a deal breaker for many (for me)...I would never trust the guy again, nor feel the same about the relationship. I could forgive, but it'd be over. To each their own, but to let an affair rob you of your own life and happiness seems like such a shame.


She won't be cheating, and I won't be leaving this relationship. Previously, we had post-separation relationships while we were "virtually divorced".


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## Marduk

MAJDEATH said:


> Everybody is an tough guy....behind a keyboard. E-thugs of the world unite!


You're the one claiming to be a badass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

@MAJDEATH:

Are you seriously in the Army?

Some of the drivel that comes out of your mouth really paints a poor picture of those of us who either are or have been in uniform.

Tighten up your damn shot group.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MAJDEATH

farsidejunky said:


> @MAJDEATH:
> 
> Are you seriously in the Army?
> 
> Some of the drivel that comes out of your mouth really paints a poor picture of those of us who either are or have been in uniform.
> 
> Tighten up your damn shot group.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If you have been in the military, then you know that some things that soldiers do at the tactical level (the hammer) are never shared with senior leadership, because they don't want to know the how, just the results (plausible deniability). 
And I always qualify 40/40 in BRM.


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## MAJDEATH

I edited this after some afterthought:

I started this thread to discuss the issue of coming clean about an affair before R can be attempted. And based on the opinions posted, I tend to agree that the repair of the marital relationship must be grounded in honesty. But you should never do or say anything to intentionally hurt your spouse, especially just for selfish reasons to "clear your conscious". So, a basic admission of "I was disrespectful and was not a good spouse to you" should suffice, in addition to ending the affair, becoming transparent, expressing remorse, apologizing, etc.


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## ConanHub

MAJDEATH said:


> Everybody is an tough guy....behind a keyboard. E-thugs of the world unite!


I'm far worse in person.

If you ever want a good workout and a beer later, pm me.

I often have opportunities to travel.

A few rounds in the ring are well worth a few thousand words and good for the soul, I'm convinced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAJDEATH

ConanHub said:


> I'm far worse in person.
> 
> If you ever want a good workout and a beer later, pm me.
> 
> I often have opportunities to travel.
> 
> A few rounds in the ring are well worth a few thousand words and good for the soul, I'm convinced.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I appreciate the offer, but I don't think the board of directors would allow the risk of me "working out" with you in the ring.


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## *Deidre*

MAJDEATH said:


> She won't be cheating, and I won't be leaving this relationship. Previously, we had post-separation relationships while we were "virtually divorced".


I don't mean to be confused, just trying to gain clarity - so, there were no affairs? But, you refer to affairs in your posts. If you both had relationships during a time when you were seeking to divorce, then that is different than 'cheating.' 

Either way, you seem to love your wife, and I hope you find peace about everything.


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## MAJDEATH

*Deidre* said:


> I don't mean to be confused, just trying to gain clarity - so, there were no affairs? But, you refer to affairs in your posts. If you both had relationships during a time when you were seeking to divorce, then that is different than 'cheating.'
> 
> Either way, you seem to love your wife, and I hope you find peace about everything.


Thanks Deidre for the kind and understanding words. It is a long and complicated story, but basically we were borderline divorced and she was seeing someone else when 9/11 hit and I left to fight the wars for several years. We argued because she did not want me to go: patriotism is great until you have to live without a husband. She said if I choose to go she couldn't say whether she would be there when I got back. I told her she could do whatever she wanted but I was going, and apparently she did. 
So I understand some of the similar dynamics of infidelity, but we were separated pending D most of those years. However, during some of those "dark" times when I was back briefly I think she redefined monogamy to mean one guy at a time, and just last year I was made aware of 99% of what really went down then, including some additional players in the game. 
I try to use the word "relationships" instead of "affairs" because I think it is more accurate, in our situation.


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## *Deidre*

MAJDEATH said:


> Thanks Deidre for the kind and understanding words. It is a long and complicated story, but basically we were borderline divorced and she was seeing someone else when 9/11 hit and I left to fight the wars for several years. We argued because she did not want me to go: patriotism is great until you have to live without a husband. She said if I choose to go she couldn't say whether she would be there when I got back. I told her she could do whatever she wanted but I was going, and apparently she did.
> So I understand some of the similar dynamics of infidelity, but we were separated pending D most of those years. However, during some of those "dark" times when I was back briefly I think she redefined monogamy to mean one guy at a time, and just last year I was made aware of 99% of what really went down then, including some additional players in the game.
> I try to use the word "relationships" instead of "affairs" because I think it is more accurate, in our situation.


I see, now it makes more sense.  Well, hopefully those dark years are behind you both, and your marriage will be purely one another, now.


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