# 12 year old out of control...



## moogvo

So my wife's daughter has been a problem child ever since I have known her. When my wife and I met, she was 4. She is 12 now. 

She does have ADD.

She has always been defiant in the extreme. She is disrespectful, she steals and she is a compulsive liar.

Since she was young, she has been sneaking food into her room and hiding the wrappers under the bed, in drawers, etc. over the years, she has graduated to eating a dozen ice cream pops in an afternoon, a 2 pound block of cheese, 3 pounds of gummy bears and anything and everything she can get her hands on.

She gets caught every time she does it because she doesn't have the intelligence to get rid of the wrappers and now, she leaves them on the floor next to the toilet because she is too lazy to pick them up and throw them out.

Now, I know... Kids eat all the time, and I am no stranger to kids and their eating habits. BELIEVE ME when I tell you that THIS goes WAY beyond anything you are imagining. She climbs as far into the refrigerator as she can eating cake icing out of the tub with a spoon. When someone comes around the corner, she hurries up and slams the refrigerator, pretending to be putting something back. You go open the refrigerator and find a spoon laying on the shelf with icing all over it and the container left open. You ask her about it and she blames it on her 4 year old sister.

It has become so bad that we have had to padlock the refrigerator and install motion detecting alarms so that we know when she is in the kitchen... STILL doesn't stop her.

Speaking of little sisters, I understand sibling rivalry, but our situation goes WAY beyond that. We can't ride to the end of the driveway with the both of them in the back seat without the 4 year old screaming for her sister to leave her alone, get out of her face, stop pinching her, stop taking her things away, etc. You say something to the 12 year old and you have a quiet vehicle for about 38 seconds before it all starts over again.

She also has extremely sticky fingers. She will steal anything that is not nailed down! Her mother cleaned her room out this weekend while she is a daddy's house. (We have to do this every 3 months to keep up with what she is stealing)

This time, she has netted herself a cell phone, TWO MP3 players, a digital camera, wal mart gift cards, assorted other junk and an Aeropostale sweat shirt.

She also lifted some of my wife's cosmetics and had them hidden in her room. I removed them and put them on my desk. Within 10 minutes of arriving home from school, she was able to re-steal it out of my office.

When we asked her where she got the make up, she said that she "found" it on the counter in the kitchen. She has been told over and over that anything in this house is not lost for her to find!

She steals her sister's toys (4 years old) and then claims them to be hers. She goes out of her way to make the 4 year old angry and frustrated. She has also thrown fits of rage with her over a 2 dollar "Dollar General" 3 year old's toy.

To top all of this off, last week, she took a swing at me for telling her to do her chores, then later in the evening, she wrestled Grandma down to the floor over a tube of zit cream. Her attitude is horrible, she is ALWAYS angry and she is just generally miserable.

We have had her to counselors who have told us that we have to "reward" her good behavior. My wife laughed in her face and told her that if there WAS and good behavior, she would GLEEFULLY reward her.

Now, when I am here with her and Mom is gone, she ABSOLUTELY will not mind anything I say. She will defy me. She will NOT go to bed on time, she will NOT do ANYTHING. She knows full well that when Mom comes home, the fur is going to fly, yet she STILL does NOT CARE!

I could go on and on for DAYS and still not have given the entire picture of what we are dealing with here, but these are the highlights.

ANYONE have ANY ideas?

~Moog


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## GAsoccerman

Moog, I know this is your step-daughter, what is she like around her father? Does she have the same issues when she stays with him? What is her father like and do you guys get along or does your wife interact with her Ex? 

To me sounds like she is "screaming" for attention, wanting to get caught so she has your attention.

alot of kids "eat" their way out of emotional pronblems, especially females. 

Does the daughetr talk to counselor at all? I wonder if there are issues with the father.


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## justean

i'll be honest, my brother tore my family apart.
it all started when he was 10 . blames everyone else for his life.
but the only person is himself to blame . he is 32 this yr and stil doesnt accept any responsibilites, although he does work when there is work in the building industry.
trouble is my mum and dad i promise did their best.
took him to the police. he stole hundreds from mum.
and unfortunately in later life did time in prison and drugs.
i had my own home issues, but left home at 13 to choose a stricter life with my dad, mum and i just didnt get on.
personally i think you need a break , as you have the option of her father having his own place, id ask him to help you. 
you need a get together , whether you want to or not.
you and your W and her ex and their daughter.


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## moogvo

Well... Ok. About Daddy...

Long ago and far away, we decided that we needed to encourage daddy to take part in her life. We don't say anything negative about him.

A small bit of history...

When my wife and I first met, Daddy was coming to get her every other Friday. We went to get her on Sundays. Now understand that the judgment was that HE was supposed to provide 100% transportation for his visitation, but we knew that it was difficult on him (he lives 2 hours away), so without question, we did the RIGHT thing and helped out.

Then, Daddy lost his job. Daddy lives in a town that is very poor and has virtually zero chance to better his situation. At the time, I had a four bedroom mobile home that I hadn't lived in for about a year. I hadn't lived there since the relationship turned serious and we moved into a new house together.

To help dear old dad, I volunteered to let him live in that house (about 5 miles away from where we were living and in a fast-paced and very quickly growing city where he could have made mondo bux rather quickly)

He declined the offer. Then he filed suit for sole custody of her for no reason other than that he was paying his $42.00 weekly child support. My wife went to court with him, retained custody and then ceased helping him with the transportation.

Immediately, he decided that he was only going to come and take her for the weekend once a month. He blamed us for his actions saying that "Mommy and (Moog) were taking away all of his money and using it to make their car payments, make home improvements, etc." He even told her that our Pontiac Aztek in the driveway SHOULD be his because HE is the one making the payments on it.

mentally, daddy is still about 15. He has 3 motor vehicles, two of which are financed and are rather spendy. He also has a fetish for subwoofers, stereo systems and other pricey hobbies. Once every couple of months, I have to tell him to go back outside and turn his stereo off. He disrespectfully leaves it "bumpin'" while he comes in to talk to my wife and to pick up the child... like the people at teh gas station in the big SUVs that have their stereos going while they are inside shopliftin'.

While she is at daddy's house, she gets pawned of to his live-in girlfriend's boss, because he would rather go hang out with friends and send her to work with his girlfriend.

The 12 year old pushes the girlfriend around and she acts just as out of control at their house as she does in ours, but daddy is not dealing with it. He is shifting it over to his girlfriend and making her deal with it. Any time there is an extended stay (over a holiday or at Christmas, they call us up after a week begging us to let her come home.

The 12 year old tells us that she would rather live at daddy's house because she can do whatever she wants and that he won't discipline her. This is a MAJOR problem.

Every time it gets bad, we have re-evaluated her punishments. I feel like that she is a little old to be spanking, so that stopped a couple of years ago (from me, anyway... mom might still whack dat ass)

We also have stopped grounding her for a particular length of time. NOW, we have given HER control of how long she stays grounded. She has to copy pages of the dictionary for things she does wrong. Bad action equals an additional page. At the moment, she is up to about 140 pages, 70 of which she has completed. (and we give them to he one at a time).

Last week, while mom was at school, she took a swing at me and wrestled grandma to the floor... She is turning violent. We found an arsenal of stolen goodies in her room totaling up to more than $500.00... Things that she ripped off from her friends at school. We also found a lighter... This bothers me as she could inadvertently set the house on fire.

She has NO fear of consequence, she could care less about ANYTHING, and she has no ability to foresee the damages caused later by her actions... Even ONE hour into the future.

She tells lies in an attempt to get out of trouble after having been caught... FANTASTIC lies that even the FOUR YEAR OLD can see through. She lives in this fantasy world where She is the queen and ruler of all, and the adults are all there to scrub her feet. She will stick to the lies to the bitter end, too. Lemme tell ya!

My wife invented this game called "The lickin' stick". Here's how you play... You are asked a question. If you lie, you get a warning that the lickin' stick is coming out. If you lie again, you get it across the fanny with the lickin' stick. (The lickin' stick is a plastic/rubbery spatula).

As often as she playe "The Lickin' Stick", you would think that she would learn the rules by now, but she will walk away without any skin left on her rear before she will fess up to ANYTHING. The point of the lickin' stick is to show that there is a ZERO-TOLERANCE policy for lies in our home. LIES earn PUNISHMENT.

Now, if she were to just come out and admit what she had done, there would (in most cases) NOT EVEN BE A PUNISHMENT! But she chooses to make it hard by being as stubborn as she can possibly be.

We have taken away the computer, TV, and almost every single freedom she has... All to no avail. She just flat out doesn't care.

Today, I am going to go get a charger for the cell phone she stole and charge it up. I am going to attempt to find out who it belongs to, and if I do, I will march her right up to that child's front door and have her hand the phone to that child's mother with an apology.

I HAVE to break this behavior. I have known kids in JUVIE who acted better than this child!

~Moog


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## justean

ok sounds like you got a lot on your plate, but no need to be sarcastic on here with the daddy bit. were adults on here and yep your P***** off. 
trouble is you get to a point passed no return.
what can you do , because you have done al you can do.
my parents were the same.
also the other children could get easily drawn in by her and follow the same pattern.
i can only say that with my children, take each issue at a time.
check your daughters room everyday. 
i wouldnt give in. 
no matter what her future plans out to be. 
atleast you know you did your best for her.
my 2 children took money last week , one from me and the eldest from my brother.
ok it wasnt much, but i had to put a stop to it and i was 5 mins from the police station.
i know what my brother put my folks through.
my sons are 12 and 9 in may.
the negative influence is the father. maybe start your efforts again there. but you wil no doubt have lots of his attitude for quite some duration.
again i wouldnt back down. just show your not fearful. bring the daughter back in line with household boundaries and chores around the house.


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## Leahdorus

Remove the door from her room. She's not earning any trust to keep any privacy in the house. 

Seriously, I don't have any other suggestions. It sounds like you are doing the right things but they have no effect. Somehow, you have to find the one thing that she cares about, and go after that. Everyone has something, it's just a matter of figuring out what it is. I wish you guys all the luck in the world. The girl seems to have some serious issues.


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## GAsoccerman

Sorry to hear this Moog, If I were your wife I would file for Sole Custody.

While she may have ADD and/or other mental issues,

This game you "adults" are playing is not healthy for the young girl and is driving her nuts, screaming for attention, doing things that will get all of you to focus on her.

is she seeing a Psycho-therapist yet? 

It's unfortunate that her dad uses his daughters visit to still have some power over your wife, basically to "stick it to her"

I would get her as much professional help as possible.


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## marina72

Moog, if you like, I can ask my husband, who is an educator, and knows a wealth of info about not only education law, as he's an administrator and has to know these things, but also knows about laws applying to kids, and their parents, and how to go about getting a child this troubled some help. Unfortunately, I don't know these things till I ask him. I will ask if he has any suggestions if you want me to. My suggestion is to keep working with her, don't let her stay at her Dad's anymore, if that is possible, that will deter any efforts you make to change her behavior, since he is such a bad influence. She sounds very disturbed, I'm sorry to be so blunt.

But, she might still be in there, hiding, waiting for someone to bring out the good child that she might be able to be.

I'm sorry you are having to go through this. But, tough love, like calling the police when she steals again, and having her charged as a juvinile, might be your last option. But again, I will ask my husband what can be done to help a child like this one, if you like..
take care


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## moogvo

We really do try to encourage her to love her father. We know that first of all, it is not her fault that her dad is a schmoe, and we do not do anything to try to influence her feelings of him.

He definitely needs to have his nuts kicked in for trying to use her as a weapon in the mind games he tries to play with us. She is a child, not a pawn. We don't do that to him, we don't do that to her and she should NEVER be in the middle of a mind game or be used as a weapon against the other.

When she asks why he doesn't come to see her every time he is supposed to, we tell her that she will just have to ask him. We don't seize the opportunity to speak out about what a scum-baggy bottom feeder he is... She will eventually figure it out for herself.

I do have to say that it does tick me off that he has her convinced that "Mommy takes away all of daddy's money and he can't come to see you like he wants to", yet he shows up in a new Mustang, or his 3-year-old Dodge Truck. He has more toys than you can shake a stick at. 

The 12 year old will come home bragging about his latest toy. "Daddy has a new GPS in his Mustang". I only reply that it must be nice for him to be able to afford those sorts of things, and that they probably are nice to have. I use it as an opportunity to tell her that with hard work, that one day she will be able to buy things like that too.

I am SOOOO frustrated! You can offer her a piece of candy or some snackie-thing and she will decline... Once you have left the room, she goes and gets whatever it is that you offered her and binges on it until it is gone.

I just don't get it!

~Moog


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## marina72

The sneaking and binges are most likely a way of feeling in control on her part, what it sounds like she is doing, is using the candy and eating as a way of making herself feel good. And it feels good to steal, and reep the instant rewards, and it is something , that when her whole life seems out of control, it's the one thing she can control. 

Also she's just pain disobedient. But, it's a symptom of a much bigger problem I'm sure. Her self esteem is most likely in the toilet, as kids who act like this rarely have a good self image. I am guessing her grades aren't that great. 

Some of the things you've described are just outlandish, and she sounds totally out of control, so the only thing that might be effective with her, is tough love. No more lickin stick... that's just something that I think is beyond a 12 year old, like you said. But, the next time you see stolen goods in her bag, that she's taken from another student, or when she steals from your wife, or you.... You will have to call the police. This is not cruel, it's the best thing you could do for her, she's been getting away with theft, without any consequences of any real substance, and although I know you are your wife try, the lickin stick, or grounding, or spanking, or anything else, don't seem to be sinking in to her.

She needs a Serious wake up call. She will continue this behavior if it's not stopped right here and now. So, if she steals again, I'd call the police, at the very least, they'll arrive and scare the hell out of her, so she knows her actions, have serious consequences. She can also be charged as a juvenile. 

My hubby works in a 7-9 grade Junior High, and he has to have juveniles arrested quite frequently at his school, for drugs, occasional weapons. But mostly , they go with the police when they attack a teacher or administrator, or when they attack another student, I mean a serious fight. yes, my hubby has been attacked more times than he can count, in his education career, thank goodness he's an ex- green beret, with a black belt in judo and aikido,,, so , they are no match for him. 

But look, letting her know that there are serious consequences for stealing other's property, even yours or your wife's , is the only way you will ever get her to wake up. That is my take on it anyway.... Not wanting to call the law, because you're scared of what they'll do to her, or that she will think you don't love her, can't be a reason for not getting her help. 

She needs Serious counseling, or by 16 she'll be in deep deep trouble. There comes a point, at which you have to take drastic measures , to help a troubled teen or pre-teen. And if she's like this at 12, I shudder to think what she'll be doing in 3 or 4 years. There are probably also a lot of resources at her school, you could as the guidance counselors, for advice as to where to take her, or some kind of program for troubled teens that you could take her to in the summer, or on weekends that might help get her back under control. 

I would get tough with her, it's the most loving thing you can do. It's a hard one, and I feel for you, because it's hard to know what to do, or where to turn, when you have a child that is that out of control. When you've done all you can, it is then time to call in some help. Good luck


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## raising5boyz

Wow, oh wow, OH WOW!!! This sounds EXACTLY like my 12 year old step son! I mean to a T!!! I just wish I could give you some good advice! There have been people who thought I was crazy when I talked about him...at least till there were around him for a couple of hours! I have no idea how to deal with the problems. He has ADHD, and is on medication, and it helps with some of his issues, but what you described is how he acts on his meds. Without his meds he does things like scratching his arms till they bleed...flailing his arms around and constantly moving and wiggling, and he won't stop talking!!! 

We have tried everything to get through to him and help him, and nothing seems to work. We have taken him to counsling for years, and the counselors just say, "Sounds like your trying all the right things...keep it up...I don't have any other suggestions for you." The pyscologist and his pediatriacian are both leaning towards him having an anti-social disorder. You might want to look into it. 

Since Nov (when his father left me) he has been living with his mother. Before that he lived with his father and I for the past 4years. I know it's not in his best interest, but it sure has been a relief for me. With all the other things I am dealing with, I think it is best for me and my children for him to be out with his mom. He added so much stress to the house. And I think the other kids resented him for all the problems he caused. I was having to constantly deal with him and his issues, and it made it so I couldn't spend as much time and energy on the other kids. 

Sorry...I know I'm more rambling and venting, than helping...my point is...you're not alone...and I understand. Good luck....I'll let you know if I learn anything helpful...please do the same for me.


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## moogvo

Thank you so very much for these words. raising, I know exactly how you feel when talking to others about the problems. "What? She is SO SWEET! Not HER!"

She can mind her "Ps and Qs" for a while, but after a while, she acts out no matter where she is. Yesterday, we got a note from her teacher... Apparently she didn't have a pencil (Which I don't understand because the kid has stolen enough of them to open an office supply store). Rather than to ask for a pencil, she chose to sit there and do nothing. When the teacher asked her what the problem was, she shot off at the mouth at the teacher. The teacher felt compelled to write a note about it for us.

When I asked her what that was about, I got "I DIDN'T have an attitude. I just told her I didn't have a pencil." So NOW I am to believe that she has had liars for teachers for SIX years now... Hmmm... If there are 20 kids in a class, and 1 of them doesn't get along with ANY of them, then it probably isn't EVERYONE ELSE, It is likely that kid.

This child believes that she is ALWAYS right (and I know, you are thinking "So what kid DOESN'T think that" - but this goes BEYOND all of that) She is mouthy, she has a horrible attitude and she KNOWS EVERYTHING! Of course, she gets it honestly...

My wife's father is like that... His theories are ALL TRUE, and he would stand and argue with JESUS HIMSELF about it. He also has the philosophy that one should NEVER admit that they are incorrect or wrong. you can grind the evidence into his nostrils and he will hold firm on his position that he is right and that you are wrong... and it doesn't have to even be important... it can be the most trivial thing and he will fight until a shouting match ensues.

My wife has inherited that trait, and apparently she has also passed it along to her daughter. They come from a long line of self=proclaimed experts on all things. They are the be-all and the end-all AUTHORITY on EVERYTHING!

Meanwhile, back to the ranch...

So during the "break-up period my wife and I went through a couple of months ago, the 12 year old came to me and apologized for not taking the time to bond with me... She knows that I have done everything I can to help her... blah blah blah... But she didn't understand WHY she felt like nobody cared about her.

I told her that I am sorry, but it is difficult to show loving emotions to a person who treats you like the "Mud" the dog makes along the back of the fence.

I told her that if she wanted to have people trust her again, then she was going to have to make a step and show the people she constantly defies and hurts that she is willing to change.

"Why should I have to be the one to take the first step? Why can't YOU take the first step" she asked me. I tell her that I take the first step every single day to help make life better for her, but then as soon as you see that I am "in a good mood", then you start doing things that get you into trouble. 

She doesn't know when to stop. You be nice to this child and she will walk all over you instantly. She confuses "Happy" with "Push over" and immediately begins to test until she finds herself in her room.

This is KILLING ME! I CAN'T TAKE IT! IS SHE 18 YET???

~Moog


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## JDPreacher

I can see why she always gets caught, eating that much I'm guessing it's hard for her to get away.

Sounds to me like there is a lot going on and if she has been professionally diagnosed and is not on meds, then that would be the first place to start.

Second place to to would be a counselor, she sounds depressed and possibly like she has been abused either emotinally or sexually but both avenues need to be explored. Acting out like this is a sure sign of something major going on with her.


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## queeny

I work in a hospital and review all the ER charts. I have seen parents bring there children in for much less than this kind of behavior. I don't mean to sound rude but it does sound like she has mental disorders. She needs to get help! And then your family should get help to deal with all of this. Make sure you find the proper physician to see her. You don't just want her medicated and get lost in an ugly system that will just progress her behavior. I fear that if you don't get this help ASAP she will be headed for diaster maybe jail or be put in a mental insitution without her consent its called 302 placement which will follow with her and show up on her records. IF you get her evaluated and you place her in a facility that can really help her it will not follow her in records that may matter to her later in life. 

But make sure where ever you bring her has good curdentals and not just a place where "bad kids get dumped" from an overful legal system.

Good luck to you. You sound like you have been through a nightmare and its just going to get worse if you don't stop it now.


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## preso

Hey, have you talked to your family doctor or a shrink about her? 
To help her from hurtingherself maybe they can give you some medication to slip into her food to mellow her out.
It sounds if she keeps going like this, it will end in disaster. 

Along with medication, counseling too, so she can work out why she has those problems and fix them before she ruins her life with seriously bad choices.


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## Corpuswife

I have a 20 year old with ADD and learning disabilities. He was a difficult child from the beginning. I have done extensive reading on the subject and some professional training regarding the disorder.

ADD often has comorbid disorders. That is, other disorders that often go along with it. Sort of like being morbid obese often comes with a cormorbid disorder of diabetes/high blood pressure/etc.

Anyway, there is another disorder called oppositional defiant disorder that is often comorbid with ADD. Do a search on it as it's pretty common.

Part of treatment is counseling (which you have done), medication, and behavior modification. I'm not making a diagnosis. Your school district may be able to test your daughter for this disorder among others. Bring it up to the school counselor that you would like to have her tested for this....If not get a recommendation, for someone who specializes in testing. 

It's is extremely difficult on the family to deal with difficult children. The squeaky wheel gets oiled and often guess who that is!!! The difficult child gets ALL of the attention.


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## momof399

I think you may have a misdiagnosis. I have an ADD child, and from my understanding, ADD is attenion difficulties, in fact it means attention deficet disorder, I can't spell, I think she may have ADHD. Attention Deficet Hyper Active Disorder. That would explain the irratic behaviors, and behavior issues. lack of self controll..ect. ADD is mostly having a short attention span, but not behavior issues. My neighbors son is ADHD he is on concerta and it helps him greatly with school, but he only takes it for school. As much as a child deserves both parents, if it is detramental to her health, which it appears he is, then he should not be around her. All he does it encourage her to act out, which makes your life harder, and hers.


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## preso

Moo, my stepson has Add of some sort and severe learning problems. He is 16 now and spells like a 3rd grader or worse.
How his peers taunt him about it too, calling him dumbass and worse.
I don't think he is going to do any better as he also lacks motivation to try.
ugh....
My husband and I have many conversations about trying to help him find work after high school that he can do and make some money at.
It's going to be very hard for him...
Maybe he can put up satelite dishes for a large company ?
or go in the service but the service may not want someone who can't read and write...
so he will have a very limited number of jobs open to him....


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## 20yrs

I will not make a lot of words here either but we have had a similar experience - just not as severe.

Here are a few things that worked for us.

1) Try as hard as you can to focus on *anything positive* and good in her and compliment her for it. (_there IS good there, you just need to find it _)

2) Ignore some of the stuff she does... especially if it is the candy eating thing, etc....things that don't involve others or lying etc...*It goes against everything within us to ignore something,* but she is SCREAMING for attention and you need to find more positive ways to give it to her.

3) Go out of your way to spend *quality time* with her - _no, it is not easy at first_.....she does not know how to respond to something positive as most of what she has heard all her life is negative...

4) Talk with here as adult to adult whenever you can... instead of as adult to child....

5) Try to find ways to reward positive actions as much as you can 

In short, here is what we have learned - *what we focus on is what will keep manifesting...* 

The more we focus on the positive stuff, the more it starts to manifest....

I don't know where you are with your faith, but praying helps a lot!

Hope that helps a little! I feel for ya!


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## sionarah

I completely understand the frenzy and rage you are speaking of, as my daughter has ADHD with disruptive behavior disorder. Her eating and binging sounds the same as your stepdaughters. Our daughter takes ritalin which helped with the eating problems. She has cravings for anything sugar or chocolate. We had to stop buying all food that had any sugar in it along with chips, snacks that are not healthy, virtually anything we aren't supposed to eat anyway. She craved it like some type of animal and left a mess of wrappers and plates, cups etc around like your daughter. She still gets up in the middle of the night and ravages the kitchen like some type of animal. It has resorted to a choice of apples or juice in small quantities. We stopped buying sweets. It was like anything we bought, ice cream , cookies, chips - she was like an animal looking to eat it until it was all gone, sneaking and screaming for food like a starving animal - every chance she got. She has a new thing now "lying" among other problems and she is ten.

We take her to counseling twice weekly to go along with all the other complications that happen with a child like this. We tried the non medication route and all that did was make things worse.

Counseling and medication truly help, but she is still more than a handful. Sometimes children are diagnosed wrong and ADD or ADHD could be other disorders. My daughter continues to be a challenge to her doctors and therapists and they know it is a "mood disorder" and now question bipolar disorder. The wrong diagnosis can lead you through years of troubled times. 

If the eating binges don't stop it could end up into bulimia or another eating disorder as she gets older.You are doing all you can to be a good parent and she is manipulating both you and your wife. She has to have her way or no way. She thinks she deserves all these things she is stealing and doesn't care how she gets them. Is she a brilliant child? That usually goes with children like this.


I would talk to your wife and a counselor with your stepdaughter and explain that there will be consequenses if she throws one of these tantrums or steals again. Tell her you will be calling 911 because she is a threat to herself - same goes for stealing. Follow through with it, maybe it is what she needs. (just make sure you have mutual agreement with your wife or all heck could break lose. Actually your wife should be the one who calls). Discuss this with others too. 
Any child psychologist will tell the same thing. If the child is putting herself or others in any type of danger - call the police immediately. It sounds really harsh, but at this point you have no choice.


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## mugglemom

I too have a son with ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiance disorder) along with a mild conduct disorder. He was diagnosed at 6 and we were able to take him off his meds this year at 15. We were very lucky that he was caught at a young age, properly tested and placed in proper programming. He's been in behavioural classrooms and then learning disorder classes once his behaviour was under control. The ODD was worse than the ADHD and harder to control, the child would argue over whether it was partly cloudy or partly sunny just to argue. It was described as an addiction and apparently gives them a chemical hit, like a drug would, and they need that fix. No matter how angry or frustrated your are inside maintain a calm matter of fact appearance on the outside. 

Consistancy is the key with these kids, it takes the patience of a saint some days but they can get better or more accurately learn to control their own symptoms. We always had our son medicated to the lowest dose possible to only assist him in controlling himself but never so drugged up so as to be zombie-like. They will build up an immunity to the meds over time so maybe a change is in order if she's been on the same meds for a while, we've been through 3-4 kinds over the years. 

Please seek out assistance from the school and your doctor and there is hope and help for these children and their families.


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## Meriter

moogvo said:


> This time, she has netted herself a cell phone, TWO MP3 players, a digital camera, wal mart gift cards, assorted other junk and an Aeropostale sweat shirt.
> 
> 
> ~Moog



Hey! I AM missing an mp3 player......:scratchhead:


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## dixieliebz

I think that our kids are twins I swear that they are one in the same i have been dealing with the same thing and there is no hope till they do something that you have no control over. The police tell me until he is old enough for them to do some thing that warrants the state to step in there is nothing that will be done I have spent countless hours in the dr's office he has been on every medication there is out there and he has been institutionalized 4 times and put under a micro scope to find out what is wrong with him they say he has conduct disorder and that it is the hares thing to treat it sounds to me like she is all so misdiagnosed with add it sounds more like conduct disorder to me. unfortunately there is no cure and it will get worse . start calling the police force them to do a face to face with the social services office make them do the paper work the more you drowned them in paper work the more apt they are to help you that way if she does do something bad you wont be blamed ether protect your family from the state if she is that bad now she will snap one day and there will be no turning back im sorry that you are going through this my husband and i have been going through this for the last 9 years he has threatened to leave me a doosen times if i don't do something but there is nothing i can do other then just put him up for adaption and i dread having to do that


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## Affaircare

This is easy. She is not a home owner in your and your wife's home, and as a parent you owe her shelter and nutrition. So take the door off the hinges to her bedroom, remove every item from her room (put it in storage if you so desire...like in the garage, a shed, or a storage unit), she has a mattress on the floor in her room, soap in the bathroom and a towel...and that's all. For breakfast she gets toast and peanut butter, lunch peanut butter sandwich, dinner soup. DONE. You are legally obligated to provide NO MORE. 

From there, you can easily tell if she stole anything because she has nothing. If she wants ANYTHING (including makeup, etc.) she can earn it back by behaving properly. If she goes back to her bad attitude--the thing she earned is removed. 

A family is not a democracy, and a child does not make the rules. So stop feeding her entitlement. She's not dumb so she has the ability to learn quickly...or do without. HER CHOICE. Let her face the consequences of behaving like this and stop preventing it.


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## LeahKoenig

Wow! That is so much for one family to handle. Be compassionate with yourself you have been taking some very thoughtful steps. I can understand why you want to broaden this out to a larger community. This is bigger than just one family.

First, Rule Out Physical Causes. Talk with your physician about exactly what is going on.

Second: Get a complete and accurate diagnosis. ADHD often comes along with co-existing conditions such as Bipolar Disorder, Anxiety Disorders, Depression, Learning Disabilities, Conduct Disorder, and Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Family physicians are a great start but you do want a referral to a mental health professional that specializes in working with children with ADHD. You will want to have a complete evaluation done to determine an accurate diagnosis. This is a huge area of misdiagnosis so keep going until you are satisfied with the help you are getting. Without a diagnosis it can feel like you are blowihng in the wind, just dealing with each crisis as it comes along rather than knowing the underlying issues and working on the root cause. 

Then do your research and figure out the best course for your step daughter and your family. Usually a three prong approach: counseling (family), medication (if that fits with your family) and separate support groups for parents and for your daughter. Often these supports offer you insight into your step daughter's behavior so it doesn't seem so confusing and irrational. People continue to do a behavior because ultimately it gives them something in return. They get something valuable from it. Figuring this out gives both you and your stepdaughter power back.

Finally, take care of your marriage and yourselves. This is hugely energy draining and must sap all your creativity and compassion. Put yourself and your marriage as priority one. Typically this sort of thing pushes people apart so lean in and support one another.


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## major misfit

There are some really big red flags jumping out at me here. You need to take her to a child behaviorist. She is exhibiting classic signs of Borderline Personality Disorder. IFIFIF this is the case, you're going to need a licensed therapist who specializes in BPD. And it is a long, tough road. I would jump on this ASAP before she turns 18, and there is nothing you can do. 

Please, have her evaluated. Even the binge eating is a common characteristic of borderlines. I know one mother who has her14yo in a residential treatment center. They are JUST NOW starting to see a tiny bit of hope after 7 months of treatment. And this is an *excellent* place. EXCELLENT. That they're just now seeing a glimmer tells you how difficult this is to deal with. Please have her evaluated...yesterday.


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## Mom6547

As the mother of two children, it is my opinion that when my children misbehave it is an indicator that my discipline strategy is flawed. I have one difficult child and one reasonably easy one. The difficult one has taught me that some children need near perfect discipline. Winging it doesn't cut it! He was a challenge and set me on a self study of what people think of discipline. Here is what I think....

Your child's defiance, particularly lying to get out of trouble, indicates to me that your discipline is ineffective and shooting at the wrong goals. You want her to behave. That is a SUB goal of tru discipline, in my opinion. The REAL goals is for her to understand real life values, the first of which is "I am responsible for my actions and the result and consequence therein." This is a lesson that she will need in her job, her relationships... This is a lesson that she is not learning.

It sounds like your discipline approach has been entirely punitive. Misbehavior yields punishment (call it consequence if you want, but a consequence has to be related to the offense to be something other than a punishment). A discipline strategy that is entirely punitive yields resistance and rebellion as well as a focus on the injustice of the punishment NOT the desired goal of owning actions. The correct consequences are a necessary component of a good discipline strategy. But so too is soliciting cooperation, not raising barriers to cooperation, problem solving learning, respect for the other PoV...

I had to move from an ineffective discipline strategy to a more effective one when my child was 4. It was hard. For your daughter, at 12, it will be harder. For that reason, I would strongly suggest a family counselor. All three of you; mom, you and daughter, need to learn new skills for discipline. How to handle the father... I don't know. But I would bet the counselor would have insight.

My favorite reads on effective discipline are:

Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

Amazon.com: Setting Limits: How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (Revised and Expanded Second Edition) (0086874512122): Robert J. Mackenzie: Books

Amazon.com: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk (9780380811960): Adele Faber, Elaine Mazlish: Books

Good luck to you! Sounds challenging.


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## unbelievable

You've described your stepdaughter as lazy, dishonest, violent, and stupid. I wonder what would make her seek comfort through food? Whatever she is now was largely formed between ages 1-4, so not even mostly her own fault. The inability to conform to basic rules (to accept the word "no") is formed between ages 1-3. She apparently didn't get that part of her development. What was going on in her life when she was that age? I had no control over my own life when I was 1-3 and I doubt you did, either. This isn't a bad kid but one damaged through no fault of her own. She needs professional help, IMO. If she steals food and comforts herself by indulging in junk food, just don't bring junk food into the house. I doubt she has a job so she isn't buying the groceries.


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## mypeaceclock

Have you considered in talking to a minister to receive *spiritual counseling*?


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## Freak On a Leash

Holy Crap!  There is more to this than ADHD! My 13 year old son is diagnosed with ADHD and goes to a special school as a result. He's in the honors program there and is doing extremely well. He couldn't attend" regular" school because he can't sit still in class and would just get up and wander around. Plus he has a hard time staying focused on tasks that he doesn't want to do. The school is a good environment because it isn't as structured and they do a of interesting things like cooking, art therapy, creative writing, computer games, many class strips, not to mention counseling sessions as well. 

At home, he argues a bit and tends to be somewhat bossy..but he's sweet, loving and is eager to please and behaves very well. I wouldn't change a thing about him. He's on Strattera, which helps him sleep better and calms him down so he can focus. !


The child you describe is a nightmare! There's something SERIOUSLY wrong. You need to get her diagnosed, medicated, in therapy..I don't think just yelling and punishing this child will cut it. There is more to this than meets the eye. I'd hate to say, but you are almost at the point where it might be too late to change her and it maybe a matter of keeping the rest of your family sane. Good luck..sounds like you need it.


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## Atholk

mypeaceclock said:


> Have you considered in talking to a minister to receive *spiritual counseling*?


Because the girl is infested with demons?


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## Atholk

This is more than ADHD. It sounds like Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

Get a psych referral as soon as possible. Her behavior will only intensify as she becomes a teenager. If you are locking up food that is generally regarded as a serious act of neglect to a child unless you have psych/behavioral support that recommends it.

In the end it's likely that her behavior is so far gone that keeping her in the home may not be possible and treatment placement may be required. I would try psychiatry first but they may also recommend a contact with your state child agency.

Also it's possible that the local police may be willing to swing by and collect any stolen items / "lost property".


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## Mom6547

Atholk said:


> Because the girl is infested with demons?


LOL! That was the funniest thing I have ever read.


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## Mom6547

Freak On a Leash said:


> The child you describe is a nightmare! There's something SERIOUSLY wrong. You need to get her diagnosed, medicated,


MEDICATED?!? Just like that, drug her up. Don't help her. Dose her.



> in therapy..I don't think just yelling and punishing this child will cut it.


Cuz lemme tell you, yelling and punishing sure is effective discipline!


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## AWife

It sounds like she suffers from a personality disorder (or two). She probably also needs counseling to help her deal with her father. This counseling could help you and your wife learn how do deal with her better. It's hard when children have a smuck for a parent. You're not supposed to say anything bad about them because "they will figure it out for themselves." How is a child supposed to deal with all those conflicting feelings before they figure it out???

My oldest was a hard child. Nothing like you described but very hard. For a period of time his bedroom was a bed, dresser, and no door. He did not deserve anything more than that and he hadn't done half of what your girl is doing.... He did come around and is a wonderful person now. If he had been stealing I would have searched his room, backpack, EVERYTHING every day. Every few months is not often enough. It sounds like she needs immediate consequences. Grounding didn't work well with my son either. He cared but was too stuborn to show it. It got to the point that he was like, "Oh well. Why behave. I'm alwas grounded anyways."

Be strong and don't give up. She will grow up!!!!


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## Mom6547

AWife said:


> It sounds like she suffers from a personality disorder (or two).


I am going to be really un-PC and say something that sorry OP I run the risk of seriously offending you.

She MAY be suffering from ****ty parenting syndrome. (Why is it so hard to accept that we parents may be doing it wrong? That maybe WE are the ones who need to take a closer look at US?) It makes me a bit nuts that every time a kid has trouble or is out of control the assumption is that there is some bad disorder and medication is needed. How about learning how to do effective teaching discipline? I mean there is something of a case since Mom and Dad have been yelling and screaming at her. I would eat too. And rebel and in every way be the pain in the ass you think you see when you look at me.

Maybe all she NEEDS is mom and dad to learn some new skills. Of course a counselor at this late stage is going to be the best best to help them decide which is the case and help them find their course.



> She probably also needs counseling to help her deal with her father. This counseling could help you and your wife learn how do deal with her better.


THAT I agree with.


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## lanibelle

She probably doesn't have anything personal against you but her mom does and makes it seem as if you were the enemy. You have to be strong and smarter than her. And you have to sit down with your wife and tell her how you feel and whats up without fighting and maybe when she isn't around. This will require you to be gentle, yet firm, and most of all, patient. Your main task is to build rapport with your stepdaughter, to develop a loving and respectful relationship with her. Offer empathy when she faces adverse situations. This child has just been ousted from her mother's house into her father's. She is going through a difficult time in her young life. From you she needs understanding.

Lastly, I suggest putting your step daughter in a therapeutic boarding schools. They're not the usual boarding schools you know. Facilities that they have can provide the means to help your child change their troublesome behaviors. You might think it's cruel to put your child into these institutions but it'll be fulfilling to find that it can definitely improve your child's behavior in the end.


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## 827Aug

Let's not revive a two year old thread. The original poster has not been on TAM in a very long time. Thanks!


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## jimrich

moogvo said:


> So my wife's daughter has been a problem child ever since I have known her. When my wife and I met, she was 4. She is 12 now.
> >> So who FAILED to help her NOT BE a problem child before during he first 4 years. 4 years in kid's life is a very long and critical time as regards socialization, basic training, conditioning and many other teaching of good, respectful, loving behaviors and beliefs. SOMEONE MUST HAVE SCREWED UP WITH THIS KID! :scratchhead:
> 
> She does have ADD.
> >> SO??? Even an ADD child needs GOOD basic training!
> 
> She has always been defiant in the extreme. She is disrespectful, she steals and she is a compulsive liar.
> >> WOW, I'd say whoever was in charge of her first 4 years blew it to the EXTREME and now the kid is running around empty handed where correct social and personal skills are concerned. Your kid is either a victim of terrible parenting or has very serious genetic flaws! Either way, someone has failed her miserably to help her with all of this.
> 
> Since she was young, she has been sneaking food into her room and hiding the wrappers under the bed, in drawers, etc.
> >> Why didn't some responsible adult intervene in this pattern YEARS AGO??? :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> over the years, she has graduated to eating a dozen ice cream pops in an afternoon, a 2 pound block of cheese, 3 pounds of gummy bears and anything and everything she can get her hands on.
> >> And there is no adult in her vicinity who can or will HELP her change this OBVIOUSLY out of control behavior????
> 
> She gets caught every time she does it because she doesn't have the intelligence to get rid of the wrappers and now, she leaves them on the floor next to the toilet because she is too lazy to pick them up and throw them out.
> >> Gets caught by who? If it's a responsible adult or parent, why aren't they helping her with this bad behaviors???????
> 
> Now, I know... Kids eat all the time, and I am no stranger to kids and their eating habits.
> >> ARE YOU A STRANGER TO ADEQUATE AND CORRECT PARENTING??????????
> 
> BELIEVE ME when I tell you that THIS goes WAY beyond anything you are imagining.
> >> I am "imagining" just how crippled this kid is becoming with absolutely NO ADEQUATE PARENTING OR GUIDANCE!!!!!
> 
> She climbs as far into the refrigerator as she can eating cake icing out of the tub with a spoon. When someone comes around the corner, she hurries up and slams the refrigerator, pretending to be putting something back.
> >> And exactly what does that "someone" ever do about or for this out of control child???????
> 
> You go open the refrigerator and find a spoon laying on the shelf with icing all over it and the container left open. You ask her about it and she blames it on her 4 year old sister.
> >> And then "you" do what about it??? Has your counselor ever asked you both WHAT YOU DO TO ACTUALLY HELP YOUR CHILD????
> 
> It has become so bad that we have had to padlock the refrigerator and install motion detecting alarms so that we know when she is in the kitchen... STILL doesn't stop her.
> >> Your both grow adults. Why can't you figure out what WILL STOP HER???? Your story is beginning to look worse than weird!
> 
> Speaking of little sisters, I understand sibling rivalry, but our situation goes WAY beyond that.
> >> NO you don't. Sibling rivalry is ALWAYS ABOUT inadequate, faulty PARENTING!!!!
> 
> We can't ride to the end of the driveway with the both of them in the back seat without the 4 year old screaming for her sister to leave her alone, get out of her face, stop pinching her, stop taking her things away, etc. You say something to the 12 year old and you have a quiet vehicle for about 38 seconds before it all starts over again.
> >> And then you do what??? It is ALWAYS your DUTY as the parents to put a stop to sibling wars!!!!
> 
> She also has extremely sticky fingers. She will steal anything that is not nailed down! Her mother cleaned her room out this weekend while she is a daddy's house. (We have to do this every 3 months to keep up with what she is stealing)
> >>> AND ALL BECAUSE SHE IS NOT GETTING ANY ADEQUATE PARENTAL HELP!!!
> 
> This time, she has netted herself a cell phone, TWO MP3 players, a digital camera, wal mart gift cards, assorted other junk and an Aeropostale sweat shirt.
> >> Thanks to NO adequate parental GUIDANCE!!
> 
> She also lifted some of my wife's cosmetics and had them hidden in her room. I removed them and put them on my desk. Within 10 minutes of arriving home from school, she was able to re-steal it out of my office.
> >> Has your counselor asked you WHAT DO YOU DO TO STOP THIS?????
> 
> When we asked her where she got the make up, she said that she "found" it on the counter in the kitchen. She has been told over and over that anything in this house is not lost for her to find!
> >> And exactly how to ENFORCE your rules and standards???
> 
> She steals her sister's toys (4 years old) and then claims them to be hers. She goes out of her way to make the 4 year old angry and frustrated. She has also thrown fits of rage with her over a 2 dollar "Dollar General" 3 year old's toy.
> >> Why aren't either of you parents PROTECTING YOUR 4 year old?????
> 
> To top all of this off, last week, she took a swing at me for telling her to do her chores, then later in the evening, she wrestled Grandma down to the floor over a tube of zit cream. Her attitude is horrible, she is ALWAYS angry and she is just generally miserable.
> >> And all because she is NOT GETTING anything in the way of ADEQUATE PARENTAL CORRECTION, GUIDANCE, CONTROL, TRAINING and most of all = HELP!
> 
> We have had her to counselors who have told us that we have to "reward" her good behavior. My wife laughed in her face and told her that if there WAS and good behavior, she would GLEEFULLY reward her.
> >> Then did your counselor tell you both anything whatsoever that could possibly HELP both of your kids?? And if so, did you pathetic wife LAUGH IN HER FACE AT THAT???
> 
> Now, when I am here with her and Mom is gone, she ABSOLUTELY will not mind anything I say. [That's YOUR FAULT!] She will defy me. [That's YOUR FAULT!] She will NOT go to bed on time, she will NOT do ANYTHING. [That's YOUR FAULT!] She knows full well that when Mom comes home, the fur is going to fly, yet she STILL does NOT CARE!
> >> Why should she care? She knows nothing of any substance is going to happen!
> 
> I could go on and on for DAYS and still not have given the entire picture of what we are dealing with here, but these are the highlights.
> >> I wish you would give me a "picture" of what you are DOING about any of this to help both of the kids that you are RUINING with your utterly useless style of parenting (non-parenting). You are DESTROYING BOTH OF YOUR KIDS WITH THIS UTTER LACK OF GUIDANCE AND TRAINING!!!!!!!
> 
> ANYONE have ANY ideas?
> >> Yes, ask the counselor for a recommendation to counseling for you and your wife and/or Parenting classes, books, or anything you counselor can or will offer you to LEARN HOW to parent and save your kids...........and hope your wife does not LAUGH IN HER FACE!
> GOD, I FEEL SORRY FOR YOUR HELPLESS KIDS!!!!!!!!


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## jimrich

827Aug said:


> Let's not revive a two year old thread. The original poster has not been on TAM in a very long time. Thanks!


I have written my response for the benefit of others who might read this string and get something out of it for them self. :smthumbup:

Jim


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