# Impatience w/ Wife & MC



## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Wife & I agree we have a lot of issues that need fixing. She has not been at all affectionate and had no sex drive for years. During this time I adopted the "Nice Guy" syndrome, which of course made things worse. There are other issues as well. Some mine. Some hers. Some ours.

Anyway, lately I've been working hard on fixing my own stuff. She's been saying give her time, and wait until marriage counseling (which we finally just started yesterday). Meanwhile I've been growing increasingly anxious and impatient. Although really trying hard not to be.

I finally figured out where the impatience comes from. There is a time constraint here. The longer she drags things out, the worse it hurts. Yes, getting no affection from your wife (and I don't just mean sex) HURTS! It's emotionally painful. And it's been so long that my emotional strength (whatever the right term is for that) is getting thinner and thinner. 

While I'm trying to cut out the "nice guy" stuff, and doing fairly well at it, the longer this draws on, the harder it is to do that. And the harder it gets to do that, the harder it is to get myself back to being the man she needs, and the man I want to be again.

Awhile back I just shut down. That was a reaction to the emotional pain of a disconnected marriage. I shut down emotionally as an emotional defense. I sincerely believe if I do that again, it's over for us and I don;t want that. And I don't want to shut down. It's not healthy, and it's weak.

So I feel like I'm in some kind of race to get the marriage to some kind of tolerable footing before I shut down just to alleviate the emotional pain.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Condescensions? Blast Away.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Here's what I went through.

Basically had to force my wife to marriage counseling. We explained that we wanted counseling to see what to do with our marriage. The MC explained that wasn't the reason to be there. Either you are there to make the marriage work or you're just wasting your time.

We decided that we wanted to make the marriage work and continued for a while in MC.

I've had the ups and downs in our marriage, too and the last down was incredibly hard to recover from. I had shut down and didn't want to re-engage in the relationship because I felt that didn't want to build up my hopes of a good relationship with my wife.

After about two months of disengaging and my wife seeing it was slowly ending, she made overtures that she was committed to the marriage and I re-engaged. It's working out, but it's a work in progress.

You either have to be in the marriage, committed to making it work, or planning your exit. You can't just bump along with frustration and resentment building. Use marriage counseling to get everythingout on the table to discuss so that everyone knows where everyone stands.


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## C123 (Jun 20, 2012)

I feel for you. I've read a lot of posts on here about the Nice Guy syndrome and all of that, and I have to say I think there's some truth to it, but a lot of it is BS.

There are plenty of women who are truly looking for a nice guy. They want someone to share their life and interests with. Sadly, I think most of us get married pretty young and we don't really know what it is we truly want in a partner. That goes both ways...for men and women. We also intentionally or subconsciously overlook glaring issues early because the glow of love is so bright and we just hope those issues will clear up. Sadly, they rarely do.

I'm a nice guy and try to make my wife happy, but not at my own expense. I control how happy I am, not her. I'm nice because I want to be nice and I'm not going to be **** to her because a book tells me that will get me laid more. It's just not who I am.

There's a balancing scale for everyone. It's difficult to keep it balanced. I live in a marriage with little sex, but a good amount of other affection. I definitely want more sex and I've taken steps to address that. Even without the plentiful sex, I'm far happier with my wife than without her. Sure I'd like to get laid a little more often (ok, a lot more often) but there are so many other good things that outweigh that one bad, that I've never thought about leaving. I'm positive the grass isn't greener. If I left, I may end up with someone who likes to have sex a lot, but I'm sure she would have her mountain of issues as well. Plus, I wouldn't get to see my little girl every single day, which is the best thing in my life!

It's just a fact that men and women are two totally different emotional creatures. If the balancing scale is not working for you, and she's not willing to help the scale get to where you need it to be, then you have a tough decision to make. Only you can determine when things are right, but if they're not right, you need to do what makes you happy. Life is too short to be miserable. Good for you for seeing an MC. At least it's a start, but if it doesn't end up working for you, and you feel like the scale is not in the position you need it to be, then you have to do what you have to do for your emotional well-being and hers.

Good Luck!


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Drover said:


> Wife & I agree we have a lot of issues that need fixing. She has not been at all affectionate and had no sex drive for years. During this time I adopted the "Nice Guy" syndrome, which of course made things worse. There are other issues as well. Some mine. Some hers. Some ours.
> 
> Anyway, lately I've been working hard on fixing my own stuff. She's been saying give her time, and wait until marriage counseling (which we finally just started yesterday). Meanwhile I've been growing increasingly anxious and impatient. Although really trying hard not to be.
> 
> ...


i feel your pain... it's tough when, even making the changes you don't see any movement from the other side. as other people will say, mannign up isn't about changing your wife, it's about you. perhaps as you did, you realized that she wasn't the right person for you?? perhaps this is why you disengaged? 

i'm going to ask an off the wall question, though... 

is she by chance an only child?


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## GPR (Jan 3, 2009)

Not being a Nice-Guy isn't about being an *******. At least if you want it to be effective. 

A big part of it is just trying to concentrate a little on yourself. Make yourself better. Do some working out, clean yourself up, and most importantly, respect yourself. 

You can do some of this kind of stuff to try to keep you busy in the mean time. Think of it as working on your relationship by working on you.


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## Tigerman (Apr 5, 2012)

I've struggled to purge myself of the NG stuff, especially when it comes to unhooking the emotional hose. That's held me back the most in all of this. When the hose is detached, it seems much easier to deal with whatever comes my way. Wife is cranky? Hey, that's her problem. Relationship isn't where I want it to be? Well, either it will get better or I'll move on. Crappy last few days at home? Well, I can keep myself productively busy while I wait to see how things sort out.

When the hose gets re-attached and all sorts of external stuff starts affecting how I feel, my anxiety level goes through the roof, I get impatient, and my decision making becomes awful. The closest thing I have to advice, then, is to work on detaching the emotional hose, as that should make it both easier to get through this time and more likely that you won't end up inadvertently sabotaging the work you and your wife are doing.

Good luck.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

C123 said:


> I feel for you. I've read a lot of posts on here about the Nice Guy syndrome and all of that, and I have to say I think there's some truth to it, but a lot of it is BS.
> 
> There are plenty of women who are truly looking for a nice guy.


"Nice Guy" syndrome isn't really about being a nice guy. It would more accurately be called doormat syndrome. I don't think anyone would really think being a nice guy is the problem. The problem is that people with "Nice Guy Sundrome" think they're nice guys when really they're doormats.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> is she by chance an only child?


She has a half brother. But she has a lot of issues that go to childhood abandonment, neglect, etc.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

GPR said:


> A big part of it is just trying to concentrate a little on yourself. Make yourself better. Do some working out, clean yourself up, and most importantly, respect yourself.
> 
> You can do some of this kind of stuff to try to keep you busy in the mean time. Think of it as working on your relationship by working on you.


I actually look at it as that being ALL it is, not just a big part. That's what it's about. Whether the relationship succeeds or fails, I'll be stronger. But, yeah, I do want the relationship to work.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Drover said:


> She has a half brother. But she has a lot of issues that go to childhood abandonment, neglect, etc.


the reason why i ask... my wife is an only child, i have a coworker here, that is an only child and treats her boyfriend the same way my wife does me...

i wonder in some cases, that never learning to care about others, share, etc... makes people like that incapable of showing love and affection. maybe incapable isn't the right word... perhaps it's just unlearned or not taught. i'm not really a nice guy. i have some nice guy attributes, but i see some of our relationship issues revolving around my wifes challenges with interacting others. i have no doubt she loves me... i just don't ever feel it, which is what i really need. i assume you are in the same boat as I am there. knowledge is there, but it's completely without emotion. very unsatisfying indeed. 

this is all conjecture of course, and i could be drawing cause and effect from two very unrelated circumstances... but it pretty much makes sense to me.


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## GPR (Jan 3, 2009)

Drover said:


> "Nice Guy" syndrome isn't really about being a nice guy. It would more accurately be called doormat syndrome.


Perfect point right there.


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

My wife was not an only child, but her parents heaped all of their attention and affection on her brother, so she felt like she might as well have been an only child.

She worked through a good deal of her childhood issues in our last round of MC. She is still going through some IC to help her deal with her childhood and lingering ill feelings towards her parents.

When children don't get the affection/attention/love/support/encouragement they need, more often than not they grow up into adults who in turn have problems trying to give affection/attention/love/support/encouragement to their loved ones.

As parents, we role model the behaviors that our children will likely follow when they are adults.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Drover said:


> getting no affection from your wife (and I don't just mean sex) HURTS! It's emotionally painful. And it's been so long that my emotional strength (whatever the right term is for that) is getting thinner and thinner.


Don't forget, you are playing a part in letting this hurt you. That said, people are wired to give and receive love and affection. In your wife's case, something is getting in the way of this and I'm willing to bet that it's not you. You need to find out what it is because understanding your wife is a basic requirement to your getting your relationship on the track you want. What was her childhood like? What was her parent's relationship like? Is she angry? Is she mistrustful? Is she fearful? You need to find these things out

Btw, her drive (or lack thereof) is almost completely dependent on her self image. Although you can have an effect on her perception of herself, the are a large number of other factors involved


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Btw, her drive (or lack thereof) is almost completely dependent on her self image.


interesting... true? not sure...


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

This is the conclusion of recent psychiatric research. It explains why so many partners of good men fall off the wagon, the reason being outside media interference with a woman's self perception, especially stay at home moms.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think one of the very big things I see with NGs is that they let their wives dominate them. In my marriage there were a couple of power struggles over the years but I am not a person who will be dominated. Most people around me just “know” that.

An example that may seem trivial but is illustrative. I was at a get together drinking coke from a can. A friend’s new wife came up to me and said I should put the drink in a glass with some ice and drink it that way. She more or less gave me an order. I couldn’t believe it. I felt my back go straight and adrenaline start pumping and walked away to calm myself down. She got my back for the rest of the time.

I’m by myself and I’m exactly the same with any woman who’s company I’m in. As soon as they try and dominate, decide for me, give me an order or whatever my shutters just go up, in figurative way. I don’t show it but the woman is immediately crossed off my list.

I don’t know if it’s a fear I have, if it’s to do with my childhood or what it is. But I will not be told what to do and most certainly will not be dominated by anyone. I’m a pretty big guy who hasn’t had to hit anybody since my teens. I don’t create trouble and I will steer clear of it.

But I think a lot of NGs wives turn into aggressive (covert and/or overt) bullies. But instead of the NGs back going straight, their head up in the air they seem to somehow cave in. It’s that caving in to “keep the peace” that erodes the essence of a man.

Boundaries are the thing in these situations. Boundaries of intolerance. Take a look at Relationship Book, Self Help Relationship Book For a Man, Best Manual for Men. And take a look at some of the reviews Amazon.com: Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men (9780979054402): Wayne M. Levine: Books. There’s one there where a guy compares the book with NMMG.

Your N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms.

They are your “line in the sand”. The point over which you will not cross and the point which you do not allow others to cross. Most of these things are like an evolution, we learn and evolve over time. Say from the Doormat NMMG to the man we want to be.

With boundaries though once you assert them such that the person whose crossed them knows you will not tolerate their abusive, dysfunctional behaviour, change happens in a relative instant of time.

I’ve been thinking for a while to ask the authors if they’ll spend some time here. I’ll get on and do that.

I think NGs need to feel something such that its effect is their head going up and their back going straight almost of their own accord. Even thinking about defining your N.U.T.s. much less asserting them can have that affect.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Don't forget, you are playing a part in letting this hurt you.


Sure, but how do you have an emotional investment in a relationship w/o allowing yourself to be vulnerable to getting hurt? 



> That said, people are wired to give and receive love and affection. In your wife's case, something is getting in the way of this and I'm willing to bet that it's not you. You need to find out what it is because understanding your wife is a basic requirement to your getting your relationship on the track you want. What was her childhood like? What was her parent's relationship like? Is she angry? Is she mistrustful? Is she fearful? You need to find these things out


Yeah, that's exactly it. All of the above. She admits that. The problem I'm having is how freaking long it's taking to figure this stuff out. 



> Btw, her drive (or lack thereof) is almost completely dependent on her self image. Although you can have an effect on her perception of herself, the are a large number of other factors involved


This is a good point. Something I need to think about.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

AFEH, 

I read the NUTs book. Not sure it was nearly as helpful as NMMNG and a couple of others I've read recently. Yeah, it's very clear I let her take a dominant role the last 10 years or so. And that's definitely changing pretty quickly around here. I'm taking charge much more. And the sexual moratorium I announced seems to be helping me take back some of that control too. Anyway, I'm working on things. It's just hard to hold to the straight & narrow with so much emotional pain.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Somebody’s inflicting the pain. It may well be your wife by way of passive aggression. Ignore the passive bit, aggression is designed to hurt and dominate as to whether it’s overt or covert.

Passive aggressives are exceedingly cunning, you don’t even know what they are doing.

But you do feel it’s affects emotionally and psychologically. You’ve got the emotional pain, if you feel you’re going a little crazy in the head it’s a sure sign of a passive aggressive at work on you.


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## Beelzebub (Jun 26, 2012)

an advice, if you guys have no kids. then leave and never look back.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

With everything thats been stated here.. 

How did the MC go? 
Did posting here help relieve some of the stress your feeling? 
How are you feeling now? Any weights lifted off your shoulders or no?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Beelzebub said:


> an advice, if you guys have no kids. then leave and never look back.


^^I know people say this alot.. but i personally feel that kids shouldn't keep someone in a relationship if it's bad enough to leave. It shouldn't be the only reason one has to "work things out" ... at least not imo anyway.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Beelzebub said:


> an advice, if you guys have no kids. then leave and never look back.


We do have kids but that's only partly what's keeping me here. It's largely that she has stated a desire to change and make things work.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Gaia said:


> With everything thats been stated here..
> 
> How did the MC go?
> Did posting here help relieve some of the stress your feeling?
> How are you feeling now? Any weights lifted off your shoulders or no?


Yeah, venting was part of the reason for posting this. Partly it was also that I just recognized the reason for my anxiety about things not moving quickly enough, and I've seen posts by people in similar situations who were feeling similar anxieties and didn't seem to understand why.

The MC was just a first visit, assessment type thing. Obviously it will take time. I'm cautiously optimistic about the MC. 

One thing I've done is stop my soft 180. I don't think it will help while we're actively trying to work things out. But I am committed to my MMSL and NMMNG changes. Those will continue regardless. She has to understand she'll be married to a much stronger man, regardless of the MC.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Force yourself to be patient, Drover. If it works and she does try to change, you will be so glad that you resurrected your marriage. Remember that you are trying to reverse years of dysfunction. 

If it doesn't work, you can divorce in peace knowing that you gave it your all.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

She is trying. Last night she said ILY first at bedtime. And this morning she got up and made breakfast for me before I was even up. And really trying is all I need to see. When she does something nice like that all the impatience and anxiety disappears.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

C123,
What part of nmmng is it that you think requires being a jerk?


QUOTE=C123;857417]I feel for you. I've read a lot of posts on here about the Nice Guy syndrome and all of that, and I have to say I think there's some truth to it, but a lot of it is BS.

There are plenty of women who are truly looking for a nice guy. They want someone to share their life and interests with. Sadly, I think most of us get married pretty young and we don't really know what it is we truly want in a partner. That goes both ways...for men and women. We also intentionally or subconsciously overlook glaring issues early because the glow of love is so bright and we just hope those issues will clear up. Sadly, they rarely do.

I'm a nice guy and try to make my wife happy, but not at my own expense. I control how happy I am, not her. I'm nice because I want to be nice and I'm not going to be **** to her because a book tells me that will get me laid more. It's just not who I am.

There's a balancing scale for everyone. It's difficult to keep it balanced. I live in a marriage with little sex, but a good amount of other affection. I definitely want more sex and I've taken steps to address that. Even without the plentiful sex, I'm far happier with my wife than without her. Sure I'd like to get laid a little more often (ok, a lot more often) but there are so many other good things that outweigh that one bad, that I've never thought about leaving. I'm positive the grass isn't greener. If I left, I may end up with someone who likes to have sex a lot, but I'm sure she would have her mountain of issues as well. Plus, I wouldn't get to see my little girl every single day, which is the best thing in my life!

It's just a fact that men and women are two totally different emotional creatures. If the balancing scale is not working for you, and she's not willing to help the scale get to where you need it to be, then you have a tough decision to make. Only you can determine when things are right, but if they're not right, you need to do what makes you happy. Life is too short to be miserable. Good for you for seeing an MC. At least it's a start, but if it doesn't end up working for you, and you feel like the scale is not in the position you need it to be, then you have to do what you have to do for your emotional well-being and hers.

Good Luck![/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bob,
I 100 percent agree with the concept - but Deejo has the optimal response pattern to this:
You are absolutely right "he says with a smile" why don't you fetch me a glass of ice?

Way better for your blood pressure and quality of life. And you might find that the woman laughs - with you - at herself - and conversation starts.




AFEH said:


> I think one of the very big things I see with NGs is that they let their wives dominate them. In my marriage there were a couple of power struggles over the years but I am not a person who will be dominated. Most people around me just “know” that.
> 
> An example that may seem trivial but is illustrative. I was at a get together drinking coke from a can. A friend’s new wife came up to me and said I should put the drink in a glass with some ice and drink it that way. She more or less gave me an order. I couldn’t believe it. I felt my back go straight and adrenaline start pumping and walked away to calm myself down. She got my back for the rest of the time.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

C123 said:


> I'm a nice guy and try to make my wife happy, but not at my own expense. I control how happy I am, not her. I'm nice because I want to be nice and I'm not going to be **** to her because a book tells me that will get me laid more. It's just not who I am.


You and the OP are not speaking the same language in regard to being a "Nice Guy". Being a "Nice Guy" means doing things with an ulterior motive, not having the courage to stand up for yourself and refuse mistreatment, not having the courage to stand up for what you want.

What the OP seems to be saying is that when his wife started refusing sex he started acting in a manner that was superficially nice but really designed to get sex. He would hold in complaints and grievances until he exploded, perhaps. Perhaps he would whine about the lack of sex. Perhaps he engaged in some sort of revenge for not getting sex. And so on.

You are nice simply because that's the way you are, not putting up some facade. By being genuine you are, by definition, not a "Nice Guy".

NMMNG is not a way to get laid. It, strictly speaking, is not even relationship advice. It is a philosophy that a man is inherently valuable and is worthy of a life that brings him joy and contentment. It also stresses that a man is responsible for his own happiness and cannot rely on someone else to provide that for him spontaneously (in direct contradiction to the PC way that says the woman deserves to go first). And, it also stresses the importance of having self-confidence, because he needs to have the courage to seek his own happiness (since no one will just provide it for him), deal with obstacles calmly but firmly, and move on to a new relationship if needed. 

HTH.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Drover said:


> She is trying. Last night she said ILY first at bedtime. And this morning she got up and made breakfast for me before I was even up. And really trying is all I need to see. When she does something nice like that all the impatience and anxiety disappears.


Glad to hear things are improving and definitely glad to hear venting here has helped you as well. It certainly helps me and I've vented here a few times before.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> I 100 percent agree with the concept - but Deejo has the optimal response pattern to this:
> You are absolutely right "he says with a smile" why don't you fetch me a glass of ice?
> 
> ...


I prefer to run MEM and just keep running, figuratively speaking of course. The friend married to the woman I mentioned is a very successful guy who obviously likes very dominant women. I went out with his first wife before he’d met her, she was dominant as well, she’d chased me and actually asked me out. It’s just not for me. I don’t like it one little bit.

Why on earth a man wants to be with a woman who wants to dominate him and then he gets into a battle of wills and all its subsequent maladjusted behaviour is waaaay beyond me. I have an exceedingly strong preference for estrogen filled women as opposed to testosterone filled women.

I know for a fact some women will very quickly check you out to see if they can dominate you. The coke in a can thing was a test, absolutely no doubt about it. She failed. I didn’t. And I most certainly had no interest at all in playing any mind games with her. As a single guy I’m exceedingly aware of the women’s behaviour around me know. I see their dominance tests coming from a mile away and I can see the point they’ve realised I’m not a man that will be dominated under any circumstances. Even the most trivial of circumstances because that is where the dominance begins and takes a hold.

I just don’t go there and for me it feels like a deeply primal, instinctual thing.

I for one feel (and think) that a lot of the Nice Guys are trying to regenerate their primal masculine instincts but don’t know how to do it within a civilised culture and environment (outside of the Neanderthal Cave). And of course there’s been massive changes since my young days to which modern, contemporary man is trying to adjust to and evolve within.

For me it all comes down to boundaries. What the man will tolerate and what the man wont tolerate. Both from other people and from himself. Clothes certainly do not the man make. Boundaries do. A leopard cannot change it spots, the way it looks, but it can most certainly change its behaviour.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Drover, our marriage will be as good, or as bad, as what the husband and wife bring to the table. What each brings to the table are their experiences, values and beliefs. It is these three things that determine the husband and wife’s behaviour within the marriage and the quality of that behaviour will determine the quality of the marriage.

But unfortunately marriages can be very unhappy places at times and within them we can even get sad and that sadness can lead to depression. I am totally in opposition to those who say our happiness is totally dependent on the person we are and has nothing to do with those around us. And this is never more true than within a marriage.

Yes. Our wives can make us happy and they can make us sad. They can make us angry and they can fill us with joy. They can get right under our skin and fill us with rage. And they know it. They've know it since a very young age.

Believe me. Your wife knows without question what makes you a happy man and what makes you a sad man.

The thing is the husband and/or wife could well have come from a problem filled childhood and a parent’s marriage that was dysfunctional and maladjusted. And they take that experience into their own marriage.

At the end of the day neither the husband and/or wife has experienced a model (complete with all its values and beliefs and its healthy dynamics) of a happy and healthy marriage that they can take into their own marriage.

That’s why I recommend programs like The Marriage Course - Explore Alpha Marriage Course | Alpha USA. 

Look at the session topics:
Session Topics

_1. Building Strong Foundations – This session helps couples to look at their lifestyle and its effect upon their marriage, and to discover more about each other’s needs and desires – particularly on an emotional level.

2. The Art of Communication – Listening is a vital skill for a strong marriage. In this session couples practise communicating their feelings and listening effectively to one another.

3. Resolving Conflict – In this session we look at how couples can increase their intimacy by expressing appreciation to each other, recognising their differences, learning to negotiate disagreements and praying for each other (if they feel comfortable doing so).

4. The Power of Forgiveness – This session addresses the ways we will inevitably have hurt each other and how to resolve these so we don’t create a backlog of anger and resentment. We look at the process of healing through identifying the hurt, saying sorry and forgiving.

5. The Impact of Family – Past and Present – This session focuses on helping couples to recognise how their family background affects the way they relate to each other. They also consider how to build a good and healthy relationship with their parents, in-laws and wider family, and how hurt from childhood can be healed.

6. Good Sex – Sexual intimacy needs to be worked at and developed. It isn’t just the icing on the cake; it’s a vital ingredient of the cake itself. In this session couples are encouraged to talk about their sexual relationship and to recognise where they need to make changes.

7. Love in Action – This session looks at five ways of expressing love – through words, time, touch, presents and actions. Couples discover which expression of love is most important for their partner and how to put this into practice._



You are absolutely correct that your wife must step-up to the marriage table with you in a fully committed way to make your marriage a happy and healthy one.

But she might not know the ingredients (as may not you). The program shows you the ingredients, the mixture of a good marriage so you both know the behaviour and beliefs that you will get you there.

You have to have a target, a goal (happy and healthy marriage) that you BOTH work towards as fully committed partners and you have to know how to attain that goal. The programme will show you the way. Believe me I know. Your wife is an active participant and that’s gold dust, diamonds. But she needs to be shown the way as well.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

If you ask your wife to go on the program and she refuses, then you might want to consider that she is not a fit woman to be married to you. That is, she will have failed your fitness test as a woman worthy of your love.


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## C123 (Jun 20, 2012)

Perhaps I oversimplified NMMNG and I didn't mean to do that. I read a lot of posts about guys who are trying to implement that system and a lot of them complain that they're wives are reacting poorly to it because it's an abrupt change in their behavior. I think everything has to be done in moderation but ultimately, I don't think you should have to change who you are in order to be happily married.

If your wife is a ***** to you, then she's a *****. I don't care if she's sweet to others. This should be the most important relationship of her life. Even more important that the relationship with her children. If she's not willing to make you a priority and treats you like crap, then she's not worth being married to. I've been through a time like this and I made it known that I am who I am and if that's not good enough for her, then it's time for us to go our separate ways. I didn't feel the need to change who I am (and I have many of the trademarks of a nice guy). I'm happy with who C123 is and I'm confident that there are other women in this world who would be thrilled to have C123 in their lives. I don't say this with any ego but if I'm not good enough for my wife, and she treats me like crap, that's not about me, it's about her.

I didn't mean to demean the NMMNG program. I also read a lot of posts from guys who benefit from the book. I guess my main point was that when your wife treats you worse than you deserve to be treated, that's on her, not you and you shouldn't have change who you are to combat that. This is where I think MC is helpful. If a husband tells a wife that she's not giving him what he needs, often the wife (at least a lot of wives of husbands who post here, including mine to a degree) get defensive and annoyed. However, when an objective third party tells them the same thing, their reaction is much better.

Drover, I'm glad things seem to be getting better. I really hope it works out for you, but the fact is, I don't think you need to change who you are and how you act in order to save a marriage that is in trouble because of her bad and insensitive behavior.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

C123 said:


> If your wife is a ***** to you, then she's a *****. I don't care if she's sweet to others. This should be the most important relationship of her life. Even more important that the relationship with her children. If she's not willing to make you a priority and treats you like crap, then she's not worth being married to. I've been through a time like this and I made it known that I am who I am and if that's not good enough for her, then it's time for us to go our separate ways. I didn't feel the need to change who I am (and I have many of the trademarks of a nice guy). I'm happy with who C123 is and I'm confident that there are other women in this world who would be thrilled to have C123 in their lives. I don't say this with any ego but if I'm not good enough for my wife, and she treats me like crap, that's not about me, it's about her.


This is not entirely true. Often she's a ***** because a "nice guy" has trained her to be one. 

If you cave every time she wants something different than what you want just to avoid her anger or an argument, and your reaction is to get moody and sulk every time instead of standing up for what you want, then you're training her to be a *****. Not only does being a ***** get her what she wants, but then you act like a sullen jerk because you're mad at her for being a ***** and mad at yourself for caving to her, which makes her even *****ier in response. So now you're being a jerk, which makes you unattractive to her. And she stops being affectionate and/or stops wanting sex so you whine about it and chase her around being needy with more sulking and moodiness, and other passive-aggressive crap.

The fact is, if that's your MO, finding a woman who will enjoy that man long-term is going to be pretty difficult because it's just plain not attractive. It's obviously not, but it plays out over and over this way.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

^ You will only ever move forward big time when you accept 100% responsibility of your own behaviour and put 100% of your wife’s behaviour on her.

You are both adults and beyond the age of consent. You are not responsibility for one another’s behaviour no matter what sort of guy you are!

Never accept the blame for anyone else’s behaviour and never blame your behaviour on anyone else. Do that and you’ll start seeing your world and the other people in it very differently.


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