# At a crossroad...



## stamford

I have another thread with the ins and outs of seperation with my wife.

In summary, we where trying for a baby, it wasn't happening, she was having a tough time at work, causing financial problems, we where arguing a lot, and OM was there to listen.

We had a miscarriage, she moved out, and he was associated with all the positives and me with the negatives.

I can kind of get my head around what happened, if what I have been told is the truth.

We have been living together again for 2 months, and are getting on really well, infact better than we have I guess for a few years.

So whats my problem?

She has never admitted, and won't admit to having slept with him.

This is despite staying over at his place around 5 times, and having spent the weekend together at a hotel.

She claims she never needed to, but I really don't know if I can believe her.

When we first started reconciling, i wasn't that concerned, but the last week or so its plagued my mind, and is starting to damage our relationship.

I know, she is now remorsful for what happened, and wishes it didn't, I can tell by the way she is with me that she really wants our marriage to work.

But I can't seem to let it go. Its like, if she was, it allows me to know what I am forgiving her for fully, and if I don't know the truth, how can I ever really move forward, and how will I fully know we are back together for the right reasons.

Probably sounds strange.

But then what if she is telling the truth, and i end the relationship on a hunch.

Some of the reasons why I can't bring myself to believe her are:

The other night stays, for obvious reasons.

She wrote him a letter that said "it wasn't just about sex we both know it was more than that I wouldnt be fussed if we never had sex again", which she has said was in reverence to eskimo kisses that he jokingly said where there equivilant to sex.

She got contraceptive pills after there hotel weekend, only a handful where ever taken.

She keeps saying that people have sex before marriage so why would she not tell me if she had as its not that big of a deal. Although she was (aparrently lol) a virgin when we met. So to me it feels like justify not having just 1 partner.

When I first found out about them, she referenced a friend who is single having friends with benefits.

Some things that make me think she didnt:

She wrote him, that he never pinned her down.

She was still having issues from miscarriage when they went away and for most of the nights she would have stayed overnight, which would def make things unromantic for first time between them.

She has never had a really high sex drive.

Apart from the one reference there is no other mention in emails etc of a sexual relationship.

She still has the odd email from him, which she surely wouldnt if they had been having a pa that didn't work out?

I guess I have to reach a decision, otherwise we will go backwards.

My real issue is I would still be reconciling if she had been, but I don't want to be tricked into it, if that makes sense, I want the choice to say I forgive you. I want to be able to draw a line and move forward.


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## Conrad

You were not a virgin when you met her, correct?


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## workingatit

I feel for you - but if you want this to work...you need to LET IT GO! TRUST ME......

10 years ago my husband cheated - to this day I do not know if it was phsyical or not - I am guessing it was but have never learned the truth. I have spent 10 years angry - 10 years nagging him for the truth....and you know what it got me? SEPARATED. 

I have been in counseling for 6 weeks.....I have finally learned to forgive.....and move on from it all......

He has been out of the house for 3 weeks...I kicked him out.....so I can work on me. Now he is not sure when/if he is coming back because I tormented him for so long.

Long story short.....if you WANT to save your marriage...let it go....it sounds like you guys are hanging in there right...let the past lie in the past...unless she is a serial cheater - which it does not sound like she is based on her sex drive.....

And not for nothing...my husband had an affair when his dad died....it was the reason I was more forgiving than I may have otherwise been.....losing a baby is hard....just saying....

FORGIVE......AND MOVE ON!


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## tacoma

She's lying and no, you do not need to let it go/
She needs to tell you the truth or you're no better off than you were
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron

workingatit said:


> FORGIVE......AND MOVE ON!


Easier said than done.

Much easier and quicker if she owns up to everything and provides all the details you require. Those details will help you process what happened, forgive and move forward. Emphasize that this is part of your healing process and that you will accept it no matter how bad it sounds or gets. Right now, without giving you those details, she is essentially lying to you and keeping the affair alive your mind. Get all the details and kill it once and for all.


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## hibiscus

Tron said:


> Easier said than done.
> 
> Much easier and quicker if she owns up to everything and provides all the details you require. Those details will help you process what happened, forgive and move forward. Emphasize that this is part of your healing process and that you will accept it no matter how bad it sounds or gets. Right now, without giving you those details, she is essentially lying to you and keeping the affair alive your mind. Get all the details and kill it once and for all.


I agree. You are not going to be able to move forward if you have unanswered questions. 

You need to sit down with your wife and have a proper talk with her. Explain to her why its so important that she is telling you the truth. You no longer want a relationship with her based on lies. She owes you the truth and nothing more.

If she still says that she didn't have sex then you will need to accept this.


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## tacoma

hibiscus said:


> I agree. You are not going to be able to move forward if you have unanswered questions.
> 
> You need to sit down with your wife and have a proper talk with her. Explain to her why its so important that she is telling you the truth. You no longer want a relationship with her based on lies. She owes you the truth and nothing more.
> 
> If she still says that she didn't have sex then you will need to accept this.


Has everyone lost their minds?
Did anyone else read this?



> This is despite staying over at his place around 5 times, and having spent the weekend together at a hotel.
> 
> She wrote him a letter that said "it wasn't just about sex we both know it was more than that I wouldnt be fussed if we never had sex again", which she has said was in reverence to eskimo kisses that he jokingly said where there equivilant to sex.
> 
> She got contraceptive pills after there hotel weekend, only a handful where ever taken.


She's already stated she had sex with him.
"Eskimo kisses"? WTF"

She's lying and her own words provide the evidence of her lie.

Why does he "need to accept" what he knows is a lie?


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## workingatit

I noted that he should move on based on the fact that he said they have reconciled and are doing better than ever.....if that is true...then either he needs to accept it and move on - or the alternative is to end it because he cannot do that.....this is from personal experience from an "unknown level" of affair and what I am going through.

If he does not think she is cheating now and is sure that it is over - then he has a choice to make....to me if she is done....and he loves her and wants it to work - then forgiving is the only option if she is not willing to talk....

My husband will not talk about his affair either.....never has....for 10 years I let it eat at me......instead of working on making our marriage better...I made it worse.....it did NOT have to be this way, I made it this way.......

They were separated.....(not that that is an excuse for being with someone else) --- stuff happened.....either he can accept it or he cannot....

Chances of her being honest about the relationship are slim to none....

He also stated he was OK with it when they initially reconciled......

I know I am on the odd end here.....but I have been there....and to me it is not losing a marriage for --- especially if there was a separation and you truly believe your marriage can be saved.....

For the last 10 years I have badgered this man about this very issue....all I did was alienate him....and in these last 10 years he SHOULD have cheated on me for the b**** I was being and he did not...he made a mistake..he knew it and was ashamed about it.....so he did not want to talk about it....

I wish I understood that 10 years ago - because then my marriage would be wonderful instead of heading towards divorce.....


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## Alpha

Sorry to hear your situation, it hurts. If you want to move on, you will need to put the past behind, but I don't think you ever can until you have CLOSURE. 

The signs point towards her having an affair. This guy is still sending her emails? That cannot continue. Trust your instinct. What does it tell you?


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## hibiscus

tacoma said:


> Has everyone lost their minds?
> Did anyone else read this?
> 
> 
> 
> She's already stated she had sex with him.
> "Eskimo kisses"? WTF"
> 
> She's lying and her own words provide the evidence of her lie.
> 
> Why does he "need to accept" what he knows is a lie?


He doesn't need to accept it if its a lie. But if she refuses to tell him what he wants to hear... What then? Does he leave her? I doubt this is what the OP wants to do.


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## Isuck

Well, I think if it's eating away at you, you have your answer. In these matters it's typically best to go with your gut. I ignored mine for a long time and it cost me dearly. Now I listen to it. You should listen to yours. 

Sit her down and say the issues you're having. Tell her that you need to hear the truth so that you can close that chapter and move onto a new one. From what I've gathered in these matters, people are always seeking "the way it was". Well the "way it was" does not and cannot exist anymore. You have to lay everything out for her and tell her that it will never be like it was before. 

That doesn't mean you can't have a healthy NEW relationship, it just means that all the things going through your head have to be resolved BEFORE you can start that new and hopefully BETTER relationship. IF you can't get there, then getting back is useless, you're just biding time until the next big split happens with her.

Just my two cents.


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## stamford

Just to be clear, the first overnight stays would have happened prior to us seperating.

I was not a virgin when we met, although we where young 18-19, so I never had what I would consider an adult relationship.

The problem I have is we have had these conversations, I have explained that in my head none of what she has said makes sense to me, and the only conclusion I can reach is that she is lying about it, and she agree's it all sounds messed up but says at the time she was. 

I have said I need to understand what went on in order to move on, even said that by not telling me she was stealing my choices & my ability to truly forgive as I don't know what I am forgiving her for.

I even got the point of packing my bags.

But she adamently denies it, tells me she wished she had so she could admit to it.

I just can't figure out why she would keep denying it, there doesn't seem to be anything to gain anymore.

To add some more context about the written "confession", she says that shortly before writing the letter, they had an eskimo kiss that resulted in a real kiss, that freaked them both out, and thats why she wrote it.

But that confession just keeps popping back up, its black and white to me.

I know keeping on about it will ruin the relationship, but I'm struggling to get it out of my head, I can't process the story she has given as I find it so unbelievable.

It's not really that I was ok with it at the start of our reconciliation, its just it was never on my mind, even though I knew about it, now it doesn't seem to want to leave lol. At the time all I was focused on was rebuilding.

I can see she is very happy at the minute, she has written me lots of letters explaining how ashamed she is & how grateful she is that I stayed to listen and work things out etc, she even thanks me for turning into a bit of stalker & scaring off the OM. I know the miscarriage affected her a lot more than she let on at the time, she cries now when she see's babies, and talks about them all the time.

Maybe it is just pride and I need to swallow.

I guess my options are.

Accept it and move on.
Leave.

Oh and not sure it makes a difference but she had a small op last month and was knocked out with drugs, the did when she came round and saw me was to burst into tears saying over and over that she didn't sleep with him.

Lastly, and perhaps scariest news of all, when things all kicked off last year I sold our house, well I put it up for sale and it went within a week, the sale is due to complete in the next few weeks. So back end of Nov I booked a sebatical from work, and planned to go walk abouts for 6 months to clear my head, this was before we reconciled properly, anyway, I leave monday and she has quit her job to come with me. I can't help feeling this is now a huge mistake, sure 6 months away might gloss over the cracks, but its 6 months that could be spent on moving forward.


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## hibiscus

tacoma said:


> Has everyone lost their minds?
> Did anyone else read this?
> 
> 
> 
> She's already stated she had sex with him.
> "Eskimo kisses"? WTF"
> 
> She's lying and her own words provide the evidence of her lie.
> 
> Why does he "need to accept" what he knows is a lie?


Yes you are right. After rereading the post she has clearly had sex with the OM. The letter clearly states this.

Its nagging at you so she needs to give you the whole truth. It would be impossible to trust her if she doesnt confess now. A fresh start with her has to be be a clean start. Its the only way you can both heal together.


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## stamford

So, do you guys think these thoughts will stay forever? Or if I accept I will never know for certain, will they subside at some point?

I'm trying not to make the mistake of walking away, guess I am damned if I do and damned if I don't, I may never know if she wasnt and I walked for no reason, or if she was and I made the right call.


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## hibiscus

"it wasn't just about sex we both know it was more than that I wouldnt be fussed if we never had sex again"

Since when is eskimo kisses described as sex? She also said the kisses turned into a deep kiss. That definitely led to sex.

I just dont understand why she wont admit the truth to you? She is probably so ashamed of sleeping with another man ( as you said she was a virgin when you met?). But have you told her she would still be forgiven if she confessed? She is clearly scared that you will leave her it seems.

When my partner told me of his affair I was too much in shock to be interested in details. But he did tell me straight away that it was a PA and that it was over. He was immediately remorseful too.

After the shock came anger...and I needed more details about his affair. How did they meet, who chased who, was the sex planned, how did it end etc. I tried to brush them off thinking that they were not relevant to my healing. But the questions were eating me up.

Anyway he answered them reluctantly...some of his answers were vague...but I believe that he was telling me the truth because it made sense.

Stay or go?This will really depend on you. Can you live with her not admittiing the truth? Will this relationship become too toxic for you if you stay without her confession? 

Maybe you dont have the answer to this now but eventuelly you will find out whether this works for you or not. 

Call her bluff. Ask her if she is willing to take a polygraph


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## stamford

I have told her I still want to work on things even if she was sleeping with him.

She has offered to do a polyograph, i wont have time to arrange one before we are set to leave.

I really wish I had never read this letter now.

I slightly missqouted it, it doesn't say "It wasn't just about sex", it says, "Not talking about sex", though I don't see that it makes much difference to the context.

We talk about it a couple of times a day, I really would have thought she would have confessed by now if she was sleeping with him.

She got him to call me the other day, he said she had called him in floods of tears shouting at him to sort things out, and show me his hotel reciept. He refused, said things like "I get on better with women than men and regularly take them out", "she loves you and wants to be with you, try to move forward, she's really happy", but then he also made some weird comments like, just because a man and woman share a room doesn't mean there having sex.

I don't know why she would risk asking him, or why he would call.

Things are so confusing, all I really want to do is move forward with my wife. 

But I cannot believe that she wrote that about Eskimo kisses, I mean even if I believe they referred to Eskimo kisses as sex, why on earth would there whole relationship be built on them, and why would they need to stop them if they where together as a couple.

The context just doesn't fit.

I feel like by accepting the lie, I am somehow, reducing my self worth.

But then, what if it isn't a lie, she was in a very strange place.

Maybe I should try to park it, and set myself a date at which point if I still feel I need the answer and its not the one I have been given then I walk.


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## stamford

In all other area's she is I guess doing what you would expect.

For example, she panics if her train is late and calls up all worried I will angry or upset.

She met a girlfriend for coffee yesterday, called me from the girlfriends phone and gave it to her to prove where she was.

She got rid of her mobile phone.

She's been trying to talk to my parents and improve things there

When I apologies for asking questions, she tells me I don't need to it's her fault and she is really sorry.

I haven't asked her to do these kind of things.


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## stamford

Rambling a bit today lol.

The other thing I can't work out, is as she is clearly making an effort to help me through this, and I can tell when we are together she wants to be with me.

Why would she let this pull us apart as its clear over the last week our relationship is starting to deteriorate, well on my part anyway.

Why can't life be straight forward.

I'm over analyzing everything.


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## hibiscus

Its clear that she is truely remorseful and is desparate to rebuild the relationship. But the words in the letter doesnt make sense?!

"I wouldnt be fussed if we never had sex again"

To me that indicates that they did have sex. Eskimo kisses is rediculous. And I believe the OM is denying it because he has been told by her to warp the truth.

They went to a hotel...for a romantic getaway. Perfect set up for sex. Right?

If she is willing to take a polygraph then you should try and go ahead with it asap. If she knows you are serious she will either still be willing or she will suddenly confess. 

Sorry to say this but this is going to haunt you. A proper R works if there is honesty and nothing less. You cannot be lied to and I think she is lying.


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## hibiscus

I cannot believe that she was with him for 5 nights, sharing the same bed and they did nothing. 

Do you know the OM? Is he single? Is he an attractive man?


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## stamford

She denies they shared the same bed, and it wasn't consequtive nights.

OM seperated a few months before we did, apparently has a new girlfriend. He has cheated on his wife before.

Currently he lives on his own, in a 2/3 bed flat.

According to him and her, he has lots of female friends, which I find odd, she says she does now as well. She has always said she is unsure of his sexuality, but to be honest I think thats a bit of a smoke screen, his brother bats for the other team, so I don't see why he wouldnt be open about it if he did as well.

As for attactivness, he is very confident, and is in good shape, comes across as a bit of a metro man (eyebrows waxed that kind of thing), so I think he would be.


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## tacoma

If you can live the rest of your life "knowing" this lie is between you by all means reconcile.

But don't buy into the delusion she's selling you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hibiscus

The letter still indicates that they had sex so its still doesnt gell. No matter how much she denys it


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## workingatit

I wrote earlier...and I know people do not agree with what I said. But I have BEEN IN YOUR EXACT POSITION. And to this day I still do not know the truth - and have come to terms only recently that I will never know the truth.

My husband was TRYING to put things back together with me....for years.....he tried to be a good husband after the affair....he quit his job for me.....he bought us a new house....he funded a business for me....and you know what I did...gave him 10 years of hell for cheating....

He did everything in his power to try and make it up to me....and I did not forgive him.....

We are now separated....because I could not let it die.....

Then it dawned on me after several counseling sessions how horrible I was to him......

I do not know if I will get him back or not - he is mad at me for holding on to this for so long....

If I had LET IT GO...we would be happy now......

In the 10 years of grief I gave him, he SHOULD HAVE cheated...and he did not.....the guy loved me and I abused that....

DO NOT DO WHAT I DID...

No one can tell you how to feel...but if you WANT your marriage to work you need to let it go whether she comes clean or not.....

Only you can answer that question though.....

If you cannot let it go..then let her go so she does not live in misery for 10 years like my husband did.....

....if you do not firgive her and move on.....you will be where I am in a few years.......and this is jsut as worse as the cheating.....


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## deejov

A partial quote..
all I want to do is move forward with my wife

And you are leaving for walkabout soon? That sounds like a good opportunity, IMO, to move forward. 

In your heart, if you will stay with her regardless of the answer, then the "moving forward" part would be ? Forgiving her, starting over? Learning to trust her again? Allowing yourself to get to know her again?

What does moving forward mean to you?

If it includes revelation about the cheating, it's more likely to come out during your 6 month trip together. Give it some time. Put it on the back burner. Don't let it ruin your awesome opportunity you are about to embark on. Then she wins, doesn't she?


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## Malcolm38

When your wife was hanging out with her new BFF for 5 nights, you can consider it cheating. To what degree? Who knows. 

If you can forgive and move on, then more power to you. But don't let yourself get snowballed into thinking nothing happened.


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## Jonesey

stamford said:


> I have told her I still want to work on things even if she was sleeping with him.
> 
> She has offered to do a polyograph, i wont have time to arrange one before we are set to leave.
> 
> I really wish I had never read this letter now.
> 
> I slightly missqouted it, it doesn't say "It wasn't just about sex", it says, "Not talking about sex", though I don't see that it makes much difference to the context.
> 
> We talk about it a couple of times a day, I really would have thought she would have confessed by now if she was sleeping with him.
> 
> She got him to call me the other day, he said she had called him in floods of tears shouting at him to sort things out,* and show me his hotel reciept. He refused,* said things like "I get on better with women than men and regularly take them out", "she loves you and wants to be with you, try to move forward, she's really happy", but then he also made some weird comments like, Here is your answer *just because a man and woman share a room doesn't mean there having sex*. Your wife said *She denies they shared the same bed..* Still any confusion?
> 
> I don't know why she would risk asking him, or why he would call.
> 
> Things are so confusing, all I really want to do is move forward with my wife.
> 
> But I cannot believe that she wrote that about Eskimo kisses, I mean even if I believe they referred to Eskimo kisses as sex, why on earth would there whole relationship be built on them, and why would they need to stop them if they where together as a couple.
> 
> The context just doesn't fit.
> 
> I feel like by accepting the lie, I am somehow, reducing my self worth.
> 
> But then, what if it isn't a lie, she was in a very strange place.
> 
> Maybe I should try to park it, and set myself a date at which point if I still feel I need the answer and its not the one I have been given then I walk.


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## Entropy3000

He called you because while he enjoys having sex with her he does not want to be with her all of the time and does not want to support her. After all why would he want a woman who is a cheater. He likes woman and likes dating them and taking them to bed but he does not weant to be tied down. Married woman are a good deal for him. He knows how to work the ones with issues and feels he is safe becuase they are married. Sometimes the women separate and then want a commitment from him. So then he has to help patch things up so he can go back to the status quo.

So it is much better for him to convince you to take back this woman. That way he can have sex with her from time to time. She may have told him flat out no more sex unless you call my husband.

Whether there was PIV sex or not is not the issue. She has been sharing herself in a way that should have been with her husband. The rest is just needless drama and kibitzing. She is not a faithful woman for whatever reason.

This is the R forum. So all I will add is that you cannot forgive someone unless you have the truth of what you are forgiving. You do not have the truth and likely never will.


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## Jonesey

Sorry for the T/J

But what does PIV stand for?


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## keko

Penis in vagina.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jameskimp

She definitely had sex. No guy will go after a married woman (or any woman for that matter) without that intent in mind. After he grasps her emotionally, the sex becomes that much easier to do for the woman.

For a lot of guys, sex is the deal breaker and that is why she will not admit this to you.

Lies and deceit and trickle truth all the cheater's MO. They don't reveal stuff that can't be proven and you will most likely never get the full story.


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## Jonesey

keko said:


> Penis in vagina.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks!


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