# How I Saved My Marriage



## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Pretty touching article. Good food for introspection. Link at bottom.
Borrowed from a reddit post.

<snip>
Finally, hoarse and broken, I sat down in the shower and began to cry. In the depths of my despair powerful inspiration came to me. You can’t change her, Rick. You can only change yourself. At that moment I began to pray. If I can’t change her, God, then change me. I prayed late into the night. I prayed the next day on the flight home. I prayed as I walked in the door to a cold wife who barely even acknowledged me. That night, as we lay in our bed, inches from each other yet miles apart, the inspiration came. I knew what I had to do.

The next morning I rolled over in bed next to Keri and asked, “How can I make your day better?”

Keri looked at me angrily. “What?”

“How can I make your day better?”

“You can’t,” she said. “Why are you asking that?”

“Because I mean it,” I said. “I just want to know what I can do to make your day better.”

She looked at me cynically. “You want to do something? Go clean the kitchen.”

She likely expected me to get mad. Instead I just nodded. “Okay.” I got up and cleaned the kitchen.

The next day I asked the same thing. “What can I do to make your day better?”

Her eyes narrowed. “Clean the garage.”

I took a deep breath. I already had a busy day and I knew she had made the request in spite. I was tempted to blow up at her. Instead I said, “Okay.” I got up and for the next two hours cleaned the garage. Keri wasn’t sure what to think.

The next morning came. “What can I do to make your day better?”

“Nothing!” she said. “You can’t do anything. Please stop saying that.”

“I’m sorry,” I said. “But I can’t. I made a commitment to myself. What can I do to make your day better?”

“Why are you doing this?”

“Because I care about you,” I said. “And our marriage.”

The next morning I asked again. And the next. And the next. Then, during the second week, a miracle occurred. As I asked the question Keri’s eyes welled up with tears. Then she broke down crying. When she could speak she said, “Please stop asking me that. You’re not the problem. I am. I’m hard to live with. I don’t know why you stay with me.”

I gently lifted her chin until she was looking in my eyes. “It’s because I love you,” I said. “What can I do to make your day better?”

“I should be asking you that.”

“You should,” I said. “But not now. Right now, I need to be the change. You need to know how much you mean to me.”

She put her head against my chest. “I’m sorry I’ve been so mean.”

“I love you,” I said.

“I love you,” she replied.

“What can I do to make your day better?”

She looked at me sweetly. “Can we maybe just spend some time together?”

I smiled. “I’d like that.”

I continued asking for more than a month. And things did change. The fighting stopped. Then Keri began asking, “What do you need from me? How can I be a better wife?”

The walls between us fell. We began having meaningful discussions on what we wanted from life and how we could make each other happier. No, we didn’t solve all our problems. I can’t even say that we never fought again. But the nature of our fights changed. Not only were they becoming more and more rare, they lacked the energy they’d once had. We’d deprived them of oxygen. We just didn’t have it in us to hurt each other anymore.

Keri and I have now been married for more than thirty years. I not only love my wife, I like her. I like being with her. I crave her. I need her. Many of our differences have become strengths and the others don’t really matter. We’ve learned how to take care of each other and, more importantly, we’ve gained the desire to do so.

<snip>









How I Saved My Marriage - Richard Paul Evans


Richard Paul Evans is the #1 New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of more than forty novels. There are currently more than thirty-five million copies of his books in print worldwide, translated into more than twenty-four languages. Richard has won the American Mothers Book Award, two...



www.richardpaulevans.com


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

In all honesty, this is a sad and broken man who is terrified of being alone..... If you are in the shower crying and later begging God to change you. Then it sounds like you are just in a bad marriage and need to find someone who is compatible with you.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I love this. God is so wise and if we turn to Him in our desperation He will give inspiration as to the way forward. 
Many marriages have been saved this way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> In all honesty, this is a sad and broken man who is terrified of being alone..... If you are in the shower crying and later begging God to change you. Then it sounds like you are just in a bad marriage and need to find someone who is compatible with you.


Surely it's better that the marriage was saved and both people were much happier?


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

If you choose to read this without the God references, it still is a important view.

Too often in marriage (or life really) the problem with the marriage is the other person. He did this or that, she can’t be who am need her to be, etc. Try taking a look at yourself. Try looking at what you’re bringing to the marriage.

That is the message of the article. Stop having a self-centered, oh woe is me, view of your marriage. Start being what other other person needs. He/she might just be more than you think.

In this article, the power to have that introspection and take those actions came from divine inspiration. But you can choose to ignore that part and this still is a worthy perspective.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Understanding that you can only control yourself is the key to fixing a lot. It's the serenity prayer in different words: 

_God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference _

Thanks for sharing.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

D0nnivain said:


> Understanding that you can only control yourself is the key to fixing a lot.


This times a thousand. Take some personal accountability for life and the results will come much faster. 
With that said I do like happy endings for marriages but I’ll never be the guy broken down in the shower. Letting anyone have that much influence over you is unhealthy.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

A bit cringe...


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> A bit cringe...


Ha ha. Yea, I know a perspective like this goes against the grain of many.
It doesn’t mean it’s wrong. But I understand opposing views who won’t go there. The author himself says this approach is not for everyone.

Also important is the spouse.
Behaving in the way this gentleman did would be super-risky with the wrong spouse.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> If you choose to read this without the God references, it still is a important view.
> 
> Too often in marriage (or life really) the problem with the marriage is the other person. He did this or that, she can’t be who am need her to be, etc. Try taking a look at yourself. Try looking at what you’re bringing to the marriage.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. Be unselfish instead of selfish.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Also important is the spouse.
> Behaving in the way this gentleman did would be super-risky with the wrong spouse.


I don't think so because if someone does what he did & those kinder, selfless behaviors did not bring about change in the spouse, they still brought positive changes to the original actor & presumably peace. I would also feel better about any divorce because I would know I tried. That's part of the wisdom to know the difference.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Ha ha. Yea, I know a perspective like this goes against the grain of many.


No, it's fine. I couldn't do it because my wife would have moved out of the bedroom...  It really does depend on the other spouse.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

D0nnivain said:


> I don't think so because if someone does what he did & those kinder, selfless behaviors did not bring about change in the spouse, they still brought positive changes to the original actor & presumably peace. I would also feel better about any divorce because I would know I tried. That's part of the wisdom to know the difference.


For sure I agree with you. My point about the spouse was that there are some real train wrecks out there and some terribly abusive spouses. Trying this in some situations, a good hearted person trying to repair their marriage could be feeding the ego of a terrible narcissistic type person who would turn them into a slave or something.

So yes, it’s good for a person always to know they tried and did everything possible.
But it might not always save the marriage.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> For sure I agree with you. My point about the spouse was that there are some real train wrecks out there and some terribly abusive spouses. Trying this in some situations, a good hearted person trying to repair their marriage could be feeding the ego of a terrible narcissistic type person who would turn them into a slave or something.
> 
> So yes, it’s good for a person always to know they tried and did everything possible.
> But it might not always save the marriage.


It might not save it but it may allow a person to see it for what it is.

So if the narcissist doesn't respond and just takes advantage then you know. Right? Still worth a try.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

I have a feeling most as just looking at this as an ahhh feel good happy ending type of situation, and that is a possibility. But is he really happy? Or is he just a useful idiot to his wife?

He seems like a people pleaser type who will do and say anything to try and keep everyone happy no matter the cost to him. I find it hard to believe that someone who is that cold to their spouse suddenly changed.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I have a feeling most as just looking at this as an ahhh feel good happy ending type of situation, and that is a possibility. But is he really happy? Or is he just a useful idiot to his wife?
> 
> He seems like a people pleaser type who will do and say anything to try and keep everyone happy no matter the cost to him. I find it hard to believe that someone who is that cold to their spouse suddenly changed.


If that were true he would’ve been bending over backwards the whole time, he wasn’t. He was cold towards her too. That is what happens when both people build resentments. When it got really bad he realized he needed to give to receive. Someone has to be the first to start. That is the hard part, nobody wants to be the chump.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Bluesclues said:


> If that were true he would’ve been bending over backwards the whole time, he wasn’t. He was cold towards her too. That is what happens when both people build resentments. When it got really bad he realized he needed to give to receive. Someone has to be the first to start. That is the hard part, nobody wants to be the chump.


He did bend over backwards just to please her. He got to the point where he mentally broke down in the shower begging God to change him into a person she liked.

People in general don't really truly change as a person like this. They often conform to what the other person wants or desires in an attempt to keep them happy. I think that this is the case with this guy. He as himself was not good enough for her to keep her happy. So he starts doing whatever it takes to fit what she desires to keep her happy.

I am not saying either of them are bad people. But we see this kind of behavior all the time on this forum where either a husband or wife complains that I do everything they want and I thought I was happy, but I am not and can't take it anymore .


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> He did bend over backwards just to please her. He got to the point where he mentally broke down in the shower begging God to change him into a person she liked.
> 
> People in general don't really truly change as a person like this. They often conform to what the other person wants or desires in an attempt to keep them happy. I think that this is the case with this guy. He as himself was not good enough for her to keep her happy. So he starts doing whatever it takes to fit what she desires to keep her happy.
> 
> I am not saying either of them are bad people. But we see this kind of behavior all the time on this forum where either a husband or wife complains that I do everything they want and I thought I was happy, but I am not and can't take it anymore .


Did you read the article or just the snippet? He was not bending over backwards. He was just as defensive as her. Neither actively cared for the other and were resentful that the other didn’t care. He didn’t conform to anything. He started to actively show his wife he cared for her. Not just cleaning the kitchen and hoping she would notice and be nicer. He told her he cared and wanted to make her day better. Day after day. After her defensives came down ( I would be defensive too if someone who acted like they could give two ****s suddenly started caring) she started to do the same. Cleaning the kitchen didn’t make her happy, him caring about her made her happy. And then he got to be happy because she actively started caring for him too. One of them had to start it and if she didn’t respond in kind the marriage wouldn’t have been saved. 

I know what you are saying but the article and this story are not about that at all. Not about being someone you aren’t, not about covert contracts. It is stepping toward, not away, from your partner and communicating and actively caring for them. I wish I had been able to that.


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## Skookaroo (Jul 12, 2021)

Anyone who actually cares about their partner and their commitment to them would easily find themselves having a breakdown in the shower over such mutual resentment and seeming failure.

He took a humble step forward and led his wife and his marriage to greener pastures. This is a story of a man’s strength, not his weakness.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

If you back away from the religion and some of the other things in the OP post, I see a lot of common advice.

Do a 180. Change yourself. Don't initiate covert contracts. Make your spouse feel loved and cherished.

What I didn't see was "Get a Life." Become an integrated, self-confident man. Look to your own accomplishments for happiness and not define yourself by the affection you get from your wife.

Still an interesting story.


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> He did bend over backwards just to please her. He got to the point where he mentally broke down in the shower begging God to change him into a person she liked.
> 
> People in general don't really truly change as a person like this. They often conform to what the other person wants or desires in an attempt to keep them happy. I think that this is the case with this guy. He as himself was not good enough for her to keep her happy. So he starts doing whatever it takes to fit what she desires to keep her happy.
> 
> I am not saying either of them are bad people. But we see this kind of behavior all the time on this forum where either a husband or wife complains that I do everything they want and I thought I was happy, but I am not and can't take it anymore .


I only read the snippet but I think the point was reminding us that we can only change ourselves and someone has to be the one to extend the olive branch first. I think many marriages could use check ins with their spouse and maybe this tactic just got them back to neutral? I can see this as being a good short term way to put out fires and somewhat reunite. 

Marriage requires a "what can I do for my spouse" attitude from time to time and its easy to get stuck in the "what more can my spouse do for me" rut.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

Yes, the point is no body wants to.put their ego aside and be selfless. So be the first! Go all in! Maybe you persist and break through the barrier, or maybe you don't. That's the point. If you get no response after a time, then at least you tried. 

Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

I think if the author of this article had come to TAM asking for advice, he would not have received advice to do what he wrote about. I would be as guilty as anyone there.

It makes me wonder a little bit about the culture here that we wouldn’t consider a suggestion like this. Or maybe we would and I’m off base. 

Mostly the advice I would anticipate seeing here would revolve around compatibility issues and running away quickly. She’s not into you anymore…while true is not helpful. The downside to following that advice is that you destroy a marriage and families. But the author instead is happier now than ever, with a strong family and a solid bond with his wife.

I think that’s worth taking a risk and humbling yourself (m or f) for. Maybe it works, maybe not. But isn't it worth the effort to find out?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I think if the author of this article had come to TAM asking for advice, he would not have received advice to do what he wrote about. I would be as guilty as anyone there.
> 
> It makes me wonder a little bit about the culture here that we wouldn’t consider a suggestion like this. Or maybe we would and I’m off base.
> 
> ...


I think you are correct. What he did does go against the typical advice here and in books like The Married Man Sex Life Primer. At least as it relates to sex. This was a little different situation though. This was two really unhappy people. I'm not sure what advice he would have gotten for that situation. 

He came to the conclusion that he was a part of the problem and the only part he had control over, which is completely true and that is often said here. You can only change yourself. He made the choice to change and to give selflessly. It was a good strategy in my opinion. If she never responded positively then he would know she wouldn't change and he could move on. In this case it hit home with her and they fixed their marriage. 

We were never that bad off, but years ago I made the conscious decision to do something similar. We were happy, but I wanted more. I made it a point to find out what my wife needed me to do to make her life better, and easier. I did those things and it in turn made her want to do things to make me happier too. It just improved the overall atmosphere of the marriage. I think even a good marriage can benefit from the actions described here.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Fake.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

He could have just been romantic and seductive and gotten the same results. Without the whole vagina drying side effect of being a servile man. 

Notice he didn't mention one word about sex? Cause behaving like that he hasn't gotten it since Yeltsin was in office


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

gaius said:


> He could have just been romantic and seductive and gotten the same results. Without the whole vagina drying side effect of being a servile man.
> 
> Notice he didn't mention one word about sex? Cause behaving like that he hasn't gotten it since Yeltsin was in office


Maybe he could have. Or with whips and chains, or by force, or by any number of things if it tripped her trigger.

But the message of this particular episode is one of selfless love.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Just in case there's some confusion....

Servile man : What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do?

Romantic man: Paying enough attention to her that you can plan something she'll enjoy and find romantic *without having to ask her. *It's really not that hard guys and it beats coming off like a bum looking for spare change.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Maybe he could have. Or with whips and chains, or by force, or by any number of things if it tripped her trigger.
> 
> But the message of this particular episode is one of selfless love.


Selfless love has no place in a romantic relationship. That's for pets and children.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

gaius said:


> Selfless love has no place in a romantic relationship. That's for pets and children.


Well thats pretty single minded as well as wrong. I guess the question I would ask is this:

Why does selfless love have no place in romantic relationships?

Granted there’s no caveman dragging his woman off to be had, but surely mutual emotional maturity and respect can have the same result. So why not?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Why does selfless love have no place in romantic relationships?


It does have a place in romantic relationships. It’s just that posts about relationships like that aren’t as interesting. And those relationships are generally pretty happy. I mean, none of us are perfect all the time, but I love seeing my husband happy and do things that I don’t always enjoy (life stuff, not sex stuff, I usually enjoy that stuff too) and his actions indicate he does the same for me. I mean, he’s seen Wicked 3 times. He’s seen Jersey Boys 5 times. You can’t tell me he didn’t do that for me.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It does have a place in romantic relationships. It’s just that posts about relationships like that aren’t as interesting. And those relationships are generally pretty happy. I mean, none of us are perfect all the time, but I love seeing my husband happy and do things that I don’t always enjoy (life stuff, not sex stuff, I usually enjoy that stuff too) and his actions indicate he does the same for me. I mean, he’s seen Wicked 3 times. He’s seen Jersey Boys 5 times. You can’t tell me he didn’t do that for me.


I like to think both my wife and I are in that category of selfless love, at least (as you said) in an imperfect way but striving to be better.

This particular story may not even be true at all, but it’s the point that matters.
I agree, you don’t see too many posts on TAM saying “my marriage is wonderful somebody please help!!” 
And I didn’t notice on the news today “well, nothing happened in Nebraska. On to the weather”


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I agree, you don’t see too many posts on TAM saying “my marriage is wonderful somebody please help!!”
> And I didn’t notice on the news today “well, nothing happened in Nebraska. On to the weather”


Yeah but I bet it was a nice day in Nebraska today.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Well thats pretty single minded as well as wrong. I guess the question I would ask is this:
> 
> Why does selfless love have no place in romantic relationships?
> 
> Granted there’s no caveman dragging his woman off to be had, but surely mutual emotional maturity and respect can have the same result. So why not?


Because a good romantic relationship is a back and forth meeting of each other's needs. It's not one where one person just blindly serves the other and hopes for the best.

The thing I think people are missing about the author, if the story is even true, is that he should have known she was resentful about the garage being dirty. You don't think she said something about it 10 times? All that anger and meanness he had to cry in the shower about, that was all him not paying attention. Then instead of fixing that mistake, figuring it out on his own, he annoyed his wife with servile questions everyday.

I'm glad that like Joe Biden with Afghanistan, he was a total dummy more than once and still came out OK, but I wouldn't exactly call it admirable or something other men should emulate.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

gaius said:


> Because a good romantic relationship is a back and forth meeting of each other's needs. It's not one where one person just blindly serves the other and hopes for the best.
> 
> The thing I think people are missing about the author, if the story is even true, is that he should have known she was resentful about the garage being dirty. You don't think she said something about it 10 times? All that anger and meanness he had to cry in the shower about, that was all him not paying attention. Then instead of fixing that mistake, figuring it out on his own, he annoyed his wife with servile questions everyday.
> 
> I'm glad that like Joe Biden with Afghanistan, he was a total dummy more than once and still came out OK, but I wouldn't exactly call it admirable or something other men should emulate.


In a roundabout way I think we might be saying similar things but the words are misaligned.

Leave out the story in the OP, if you want to talk about methods then thats a different subject.

But the point of “selfless” is exactly what you described “back and forth meeting each other’s needs”. Same thing. Communicate well enough to understand each other’s needs and then fill them. The ‘selfless’ part comes in because I might not always _want_ to do the dishes (for example) but if I see that as a nice thing that my wife would like, then I do it anyway. Simply to make her happy, no other ulterior motive. No contracts.

Are we saying the same things?


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I think it's a wonderful tactic. Maybe I should have done this early on in my marriage before things went haywire. It probably would work with most partners.

Unless you are with a narcissist in which case they cannot be pressured into contributing to the marriage by you reaching out.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

gaius said:


> Because a good romantic relationship is a back and forth meeting of each other's needs. It's not one where one person just blindly serves the other and hopes for the best.
> 
> The thing I think people are missing about the author, if the story is even true, is that he should have known she was resentful about the garage being dirty. You don't think she said something about it 10 times? All that anger and meanness he had to cry in the shower about, that was all him not paying attention. Then instead of fixing that mistake, figuring it out on his own, he annoyed his wife with servile questions everyday.
> 
> I'm glad that like Joe Biden with Afghanistan, he was a total dummy more than once and still came out OK, but I wouldn't exactly call it admirable or something other men should emulate.


I think a good romantic relationship is a back and forth of selfless love. So long as there is reciprocity, what is wrong with asking what can I do to make your day better?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think a good romantic relationship is a back and forth of selfless love. So long as there is reciprocity, what is wrong with asking what can I do to make your day better?


If you do it frequently like this person (if true) it makes you sound like the platinum account lady at the bank who keeps calling you at home to discuss if there is anything she can do for you.

I blocked her number.

Good service is when you don’t ask and make the other person think about it. You know what they want and you do it without asking,


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

What is key to all of this is whether your efforts are being reciprocated or exploited. 

If you are running around like a dancing monkey and jumping through all the hoops and hurdles and your partner is an entitled diva that just wants you to dance harder while doing nothing in return, then it's time to stick a fork in it.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> What is key to all of this is whether your efforts are being reciprocated or exploited.
> 
> If you are running around like a dancing monkey and jumping through all the hoops and hurdles and your partner is an entitled diva that just wants you to dance harder while doing nothing in return, then it's time to stick a fork in it.


100% agree. The quality of the spouse is imperative for this approach to have impact, as opposed to you ending up in chains.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> If you do it frequently like this person (if true) it makes you sound like the platinum account lady at the bank who keeps calling you at home to discuss if there is anything she can do for you.
> 
> I blocked her number.
> 
> Good service is when you don’t ask and make the other person think about it. You know what they want and you do it without asking,


I agree it does sound a bit made up. And I also agree that you shouldn't have to keep asking. It should happen somewhat naturally. In this story I think it needed to be forced for at least a little while with the hope it just becomes natural behavior.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree it does sound a bit made up. And I also agree that you shouldn't have to keep asking. It should happen somewhat naturally. In this story I think it needed to be forced for at least a little while with the hope it just becomes natural behavior.


Spot on.
And also to demonstrate the right behavior, the right thinking that is expected of both mates.
The ‘he’s a simp’ crowd thinks this is not leading a marriage. I would disagree. It’s leading by example, and if the mate doesn’t respond then the 2x4 comes.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> The ‘he’s a simp’ crowd thinks this is not leading a marriage.


The “leading” crowd on here are bullying their wives and calling it “leading.” That whole MGTOW/submissive wife crowd are for bullying women, they’d never actually do anything for a woman to be nice, they might do something to be sure she groveled in subjugated gratitude but it’s for their egos, not out of love. “Crush her spirit with verbal abuse so she’s afraid to stand up for herself” isn’t leadership.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> The “leading” crowd on here are bullying their wives and calling it “leading.” That whole MGTOW/submissive wife crowd are for bullying women, they’d never actually do anything for a woman to be nice, they might do something to be sure she groveled in subjugated gratitude but it’s for their egos, not out of love. “Crush her spirit with verbal abuse so she’s afraid to stand up for herself” isn’t leadership.


Leading…submissive

Words that are really easy to become anything a person wants them to mean.
As a Christian man, I do fully agree with the ideas of male leadership and submissive wife. However, the details of what that means are really really important. And the word “wife” is important because my view only applies to a _healthy_ Christian marriage. The rest of the world can do what they want.

And the realistic point of view is that women are strong leaders unto themselves. That is not to be overlooked or diminished. It’s not a threat to men and should be celebrated.

By the same token, many Christian men I’ve met couldn’t lead their way out of snowstorm in the desert. Some of those guys are probably on TAM.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Leading…submissive
> 
> Words that are really easy to become anything a person wants them to mean.
> As a Christian man, I do fully agree with the ideas of male leadership and submissive wife. However, the details of what that means are really really important. And the word “wife” is important because my view only applies to a _healthy_ Christian marriage. The rest of the world can do what they want.
> ...


😬. You and I aren’t going to talk about that. We’re not ever going to agree that the subjugation and humiliation of women is a necessary part of marriage, and I was really enjoying our conversations otherwise. It makes me sad, I thought we were friends and didn’t realize you thought I was dim witted. 🥺. Let’s don’t discuss this any more, and I’ll not be so frank with my opinions with you in the future. 😔


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> 😬. You and I aren’t going to talk about that. We’re not ever going to agree that the subjugation and humiliation of women as a necessary part of marriage, and I really enjoy our conversations otherwise. It makes me a little a sad, I thought we were friends and didn’t realize you thought I was dim witted. 🥺. Let’s don’t discuss this any more, and I’ll not be so frank with my opinions with you any more. 😔


No disrespect intended. I always appreciate your candor and honesty, truly.
As I said, details are super important here. It’s not what you think.
I won’t bring this up again, per your request. Also sad. 😢


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> 100% agree. The quality of the spouse is imperative for this approach to have impact, as opposed to you ending up in chains.


I think the key distinction is whether you are in a partnership or are you a servant. 

If all you are doing is serving a master and getting little in return, that is servitude and not a partnership.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I think the key distinction is whether you are in a partnership or are you a servant.
> 
> If all you are doing is serving a master and getting little in return, that is servitude and not a partnership.


Partnership, mutual respect and devotion to the well-being of the other is crucial. 

The caveat/problem is this:
If my marriage deteriorated similar to the author‘s marriage… a lot of dislike and resentment toward each other, it would be hard to tell if the needed spousal qualities were there or not. The spouse may never come back.

So my thought is that it’s worth the risk to find out as long as the marriage before was reasonable. People, and marriages, are worth it.

But like you said. There’s an expiration date on that trial.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

We need to keep in mind the author is a novelist and member of the LDS. He makes his living writing fiction that appeals to the female perspective.

That doesn't mean that there is not an element of truth to the article he wrote and it doesn't mean that his approach was wrong. 

But we need to keep in mind there was probably quite a bit of embellishment and a lot of flowery words and verbiage that appeals more towards the emotion than nuts and bolts. 

Again, I'm not saying that he is outright lying or that what he did was wrong per se. 

But like Scientology coming from a science fiction writer, we need to take into account the source.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> We need to keep in mind the author is a novelist and member of the LDS. He makes his living writing fiction that appeals to the female perspective.
> 
> That doesn't mean that there is not an element of truth to the article he wrote and it doesn't mean that his approach was wrong.
> 
> ...


You could be right, probably are, but it doesn’t matter. The concept is what’s important here I think. The details could be total bs for all we know. But the concept is worthy of consideration. Maybe or maybe not the specific actions. 

YMMV


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> If you do it frequently like this person (if true) it makes you sound like the platinum account lady at the bank who keeps calling you at home to discuss if there is anything she can do for you.
> 
> I blocked her number.
> 
> Good service is when you don’t ask and make the other person think about it. You know what they want and you do it without asking,


I agree that the article is likely a work of fiction, and that the constant asking is repulsive, but on the other hand, I kinda get it. 

If he just DID the tasks, he wouldn't be clearly pointing out his objective to her. It forced the wife in the story to consider what was happening more openly, and more quickly. It's an interesting strategy - but was at minimum likely exaggerated by the author.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> In a roundabout way I think we might be saying similar things but the words are misaligned.
> 
> Leave out the story in the OP, if you want to talk about methods then thats a different subject.
> 
> ...


No, we're not. I'm talking more tit for tat. Not in a way where you keep a physical list or spreadsheet but just energy levels in general.

Ok, that's great you do the dishes for your wife. If it's part of the overall package of what you do for her and your two overall packages mostly match up, great. But if you just decide to assign yourself an extra chore to be nice that's a good way to start breeding disrespect and/or resentment from your partner.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think a good romantic relationship is a back and forth of selfless love. So long as there is reciprocity, what is wrong with asking what can I do to make your day better?


Because it's weak and weakness is not valued by women.

Why not offer her something of value instead? Charm, attention, strength. "I noticed what could make your day better and took care of it".


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

gaius said:


> But if you just decide to assign yourself an extra chore to be nice that's a good way to start breeding disrespect and/or resentment from your partner.


I respectfully disagree.

If my normal job is taking out the trash and my wife jumps in and does it for me, my selfless love for her wouldn’t let me suddenly assign that task to her. And I certainly wouldn’t disrespect or resent her for it.

I would (because we do this kind of thing now) thank her for the extra effort. That’s it. No further expectations. She was being nice to me and and appreciate it.

This exact scenario played out this past week when I had some extra time and did laundry that my wife had planned for later that day.

She said thank you and I could tell she appreciated it. No further commitments about it.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I respectfully disagree.
> 
> If my normal job is taking out the trash and my wife jumps in and does it for me, my selfless love for her wouldn’t let me suddenly assign that task to her. And I certainly wouldn’t disrespect or resent her for it.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's really about whether one partner would just assign a task all the time to the other. It's something else. I don't really know what to call it.

For example, I have a family member I've given money to a few times lately. They're doing a good job and are fulfilling all their responsibilities to get themselves to a point where I don't have to, but they are at the tail end of a situation where they don't really have any other option. It's gotten to the point where the last time I didn't even get a thank you, just a silent, sour look on their face. And rather than be offended I understand. We are developing a relationship that is extremely unbalanced. They are in a place where I am giving to them but they can't reciprocate and it's building a great deal of resentment. 

Romantic relationships are similar. You think you are doing her a great favor by doing the dishes but often when you do something nice for a partner you put them in an awkward position. Forcing them to either make the effort to reciprocate or to build resentment toward you because they didn't. Which is why it's of such dire importance to maintain a balance. And I'm glad your marriage seems to be in good overall balance but if one of you was consistently giving more than they got then yes, resentment would start growing. Like for example, if you started nagging her with servile, selfless, annoying questions every day.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

gaius said:


> I don't think it's really about whether one partner would just assign a task all the time to the other. It's something else. I don't really know what to call it.
> 
> For example, I have a family member I've given money to a few times lately. They're doing a good job and are fulfilling all their responsibilities to get themselves to a point where I don't have to, but they are at the tail end of a situation where they don't really have any other option. It's gotten to the point where the last time I didn't even get a thank you, just a silent, sour look on their face. And rather than be offended I understand. We are developing a relationship that is extremely unbalanced. They are in a place where I am giving to them but they can't reciprocate and it's building a great deal of resentment.
> 
> Romantic relationships are similar. You think you are doing her a great favor by doing the dishes but often when you do something nice for a partner you put them in an awkward position. Forcing them to either make the effort to reciprocate or to build resentment toward you because they didn't. Which is why it's of such dire importance to maintain a balance. And I'm glad your marriage seems to be in good overall balance but if one of you was consistently giving more than they got then yes, resentment would start growing. Like for example, if you started nagging her with servile, selfless, annoying questions every day.


Completely agree with you on this comment.

If one partner begins to take advantage, or abuse the giving, selfless nature of the other, then we’re talking about a different thing and selfless love doesn’t work. It’s been mentioned a number of times in this thread…. the spouse is super important if the authors post has any chance at all of working. Otherwise, one could become a slave pretty quick.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

gaius said:


> No, we're not. I'm talking more tit for tat. Not in a way where you keep a physical list or spreadsheet but just energy levels in general.
> 
> Ok, that's great you do the dishes for your wife. If it's part of the overall package of what you do for her and your two overall packages mostly match up, great. But if you just decide to assign yourself an extra chore to be nice that's a good way to start breeding disrespect and/or resentment from your partner.


This seems rather backwards to me. I think you are saying that my spouse will resent me because I chose to do something for her. I can't imagine a wife coming home to all the dishes being done and saying, "I can't believe you would disrespect me by cleaning the dishes."


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This seems rather backwards to me. I think you are saying that my spouse will resent me because I chose to do something for her. I can't imagine a wife coming home to all the dishes being done and saying, "I can't believe you would disrespect me by cleaning the dishes."


Like I said before, if it's part of the overall balance of you two occasionally doing nice things for each other, great. 

But if it's part of you just chosing to selflessly serve her, well then I'll see you in a few years when you can't figure out why she's resentful and doesn't want to have sex with you anymore.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

gaius said:


> I don't think it's really about whether one partner would just assign a task all the time to the other. It's something else. I don't really know what to call it.
> 
> For example, I have a family member I've given money to a few times lately. They're doing a good job and are fulfilling all their responsibilities to get themselves to a point where I don't have to, but they are at the tail end of a situation where they don't really have any other option. It's gotten to the point where the last time I didn't even get a thank you, just a silent, sour look on their face. And rather than be offended I understand. We are developing a relationship that is extremely unbalanced. They are in a place where I am giving to them but they can't reciprocate and it's building a great deal of resentment.
> 
> ...



You had me up until that last paragraph. 
I mean, that was part of the story writer's point; to frustrate her into making a move. 




BeyondRepair007 said:


> “What can I do to make your day better?”
> 
> “Nothing!” she said. “You can’t do anything. Please stop saying that.”
> 
> ...


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