# Is She Testing Me?



## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Or am I just over-thinking this and I just have a wife who is low-drive and thus our continual chicken and egg thing goes on.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/41767-how-find-his-her-needs-balance.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/40876-ladies-what-do-you-really-want.html

For lots of background can see those links. So anyway I finally just gave up a few weeks ago and started to do my own thing - stay out of house more and get some more exercise. I did not realize this was a whole MAP strategy until into it. Which is odd - or maybe this is all coming together. Anyway it is just as much for me. Well I am enjoying just pulling myself out of her need to talk the issues to death. It is as if she wants to win every argument - like I am going to concede or something. Been going on for years. If I give her an answer she does not like she asks 5 more to clarify and seemingly to correct. 

Due to the issues in our marriage she returned to our MC. I refused to go as last time I gave it all I had and she did nothing -- "just waiting to see if this is for real." she said. Well not going to MC was the best move ever I can see now I would have been sucked back into that web. And really this feels right. So anyhow we are doing some discussions at night and using questionnaires as she wants to "do something" for our marriage. And I don't want to avoid issues either. The discussions have been tough - she is not attracted to me, she does not look forward to me coming home. Stuff like that. If I make a single comment that upsets her like "Why did you order that?" anything she just gets so upset. I have really improved in this area -- but here is the kicker. This is life she makes little comments to me all the time that are not so cool. But I have always just said - "Well I ordered it because I wanted it." and let it go at that I mean who cares. Yes she did not need to say that but I am not going to be pissed about it. She in turn acts like this is some major attack on her. 

But I can tell she is liking my new clothes and wondering why I am wearing cologne again. But she is liking it all. Hell I needed some new clothes but being the good provider I always spend on her or kids. Anyway she likes it all but not saying much. But have caught a few comments from her about how I got a free drink because the bartender thinks you are cute. Or she is looking at you. This is coming from the woman who admits I am still in good shape but refuses to give me a compliment beyond "your shirt looks nice". Hell I have showered her with compliments for years cause I love her and she is beautiful. Only recently did I notice she never ever does this back. 

So anyhow I like the looks I am getting from her and others. So last night we had sex - after a usual two week dry spell. It was good and this morning things seemed nice. But then we get into this stupid argument. I casually let her know that I might not be able to get off early to get the kids next week as still had not heard back from a colleague. I added it should still work out but just in case can you do it? She gets all angry "Well why are you telling me this now?" etc. etc. just laying into me. At first I was like look it is probably going to work out anyway do you have a conflict helping. She says well not sure but you should have told me earlier etc etc. and her tone was like talking to one of our kids. Finally I just cut her off. "Don't talk to me like that." I could see her seething like here we go again - what is wrong with him. 

So if you are still hanging in and did not read my other threads you would say why is this is in sex section. Because we seldom haves sex cause she thinks I am not emotional connected. But I am beginning to think only a sister or another woman is going to connect with her on this level. And frankly she does not have close girlfriends or is close to her sister. 

So what do you all think? 

I told her we can talk about it later cause she always wants it all resolved. And she does seemed to have cooled off and is acting ok to me - even a bit nice. 

I love her like mad and i am now staring to think she does not respect me and maybe after reading some other stuff that her need for emotional connection is only part of the issue. 

I know I will never ever be this perfect husband she thinks she wants. Is this just a power struggle? How should I proceed? She seems to hold all the cards in the sex department as she just says no a lot because she is not connected. But it is chicken and egg --- on and on. Our MC even said this but wife did not listen to that part. HELP? I don't want to cave or drive her away.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

VCH:

You have been posting about this issue since August of 2010. Nothing you have done has worked: counseling, meeting her needs, improving yourself. Your wife has checked out of your marriage, and you are following her around like a puppy dog begging for scraps of her affection.

I would do as little as possible for her. Develop your own hobbies. Be calm around the house, but do not do any more than is necessary. Do not give her any words of affection. Create a life that does not include her. If she comes back to you, you can try to re-build your marriage. If not, I would divorce her and find someone who treats you with respect.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but you really need to look at your situation realistically. I hate to see someone who is being emotionally abused and ignored by their spouse.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Loveherman - This is a tough issue for me but I can't just leave. And while I try to be 100% truthful this is my point of view. Plus I really see some progress lately by focusing more on myself.

Dean - You are right. I really should avoid arguments but this is life and little stupid things come up and it seems she has to always be right. Plus I don't even care about arguments -- I forget them soon after but for her they build and build and she believes she is always right -- hell I concede 1/2 the time or so because hey good point. But I just can't cave all the time. I mean wtf - I can't be perfect. 

btw - later after that argument she texted me about how she saw an older couple she knew whose kids were older having a nice talk and cup of coffee and talking. She said that will be nice when we have that time together. This is the lady who was just pissed off at me and only stopped after I told her she was not to talk to me that way.

This is also the lady who says not sure of her attraction to me and not sure if the marriage is going to work out a few weeks ago and is in MC by herself. Huh? Either things are getting better or she is responding to being told to stop *****ing at me or she realizes I am actually a decent guy who is also a great dad to her kids.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Loveherman - This is a tough issue for me but I can't just leave. And while I try to be 100% truthful this is my point of view. Plus I really see some progress lately by focusing more on myself.


If you can't leave, then you're correct that she has all the power. Too bad for you. If you're getting progress, then keep it up.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> Dean - You are right. I really should avoid arguments but this is life and little stupid things come up and it seems she has to always be right. Plus I don't even care about arguments -- I forget them soon after but for her they build and build and she believes she is always right -- hell I concede 1/2 the time or so because hey good point. But I just can't cave all the time. I mean wtf - I can't be perfect.


Nobody is talking about caving. Dean is talking about not engaging. There is a difference. Imagine you're walking down the street and a homeless man walks up to you and starts yelling. Are you going to jump into the argument? Or are you going to cross the street and continue walking? That's what you should do.

When your wife jumps on your case about something stupid, just say, "Whatever," and walk away. You're not saying she's right, or you're right. You're just refusing to engage. If she follows you around the house trying to force you to engage, then you can either agree and amplify, "You're right I should have told you earlier I might be late. FWIW, I may be late on August 24, 2016." Or, you can just calmly tell her that you'll be happy to discuss the matter with her when she's adjusted her tone, and walk away again.

If she adjusts her tone, but wants to berate you into changing your opinion, just tell her that you've heard her out and stated your opinion, and walk away. See how walking away keeps coming up? It's very effective for unplugging from tense situations.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> btw - later after that argument she texted me about how she saw an older couple she knew whose kids were older having a nice talk and cup of coffee and talking. She said that will be nice when we have that time together. This is the lady who was just pissed off at me and only stopped after I told her she was not to talk to me that way.


Sounds like you passed her test. Women like it when you pass their tests.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> This is also the lady who says not sure of her attraction to me and not sure if the marriage is going to work out a few weeks ago and is in MC by herself. Huh? Either things are getting better or she is responding to being told to stop *****ing at me or she realizes I am actually a decent guy who is also a great dad to her kids.


Occam's Razor says that we should look for the simplest explanation. She has recently changed her behavior. Why? The simplest explanation is that she is responding to the changes in your behavior. You're pulling away from her and setting up some boundaries between the two of you.

I would be shocked if she suddenly realized that you're a nice guy who doesn't deserve the crap she's been shoveling onto you. She will likely only come to that conclusion when you have dragged her into it by refusing to accept any more crap.

Good luck.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

PHTLump - Thanks but I feel I have already tried the not engage bit and she says this is stonewalling or withdrawing. She is a psychologist and has read most of the marriage books. I read the book and yep that is what I am doing. Because my dam answer is my answer or like you advise just don't engage. I really don't want to win arguments I could care less - just can't keep losing them cause that has not worked out so well. So how do you not engage -- when she will want to discuss it later and ask 5 more clarifying questions? I am just going to hold my position. This is all I have to say. I think she knows it is BS to keep asking me stuff over and over but she does it anyway in clever ways. I am a smart guy but not in the ways that she is.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Vch,
I have no idea what you are like or what she is like. I want you to try an experiment.
Start carrying a small digital voice activated recorder and tape these interactions. 

As for deans suggestion I will add a bit of color:
- if my wife is telling menshe is upset about X, and she isn't attacking me or being disrespectful, I sincerely say "I am sorry I upset you" and I shut up. If she keeps going I give her a minute to et in the last word and then I nod. If she shows no sign of stopping I hold up my hand, smile and say "I said I was sorry and meant it, if you need some time to process that and forgive you may have it". And if she tries to continue I shake my head and say "we are done" and I walk away.
- if however she is attacking or using a disrespectful tone I tilt my head and give her a puzzled look. And when she asks why I ask "I can't focus on your message when your tone is so far from acceptable". If the tone continues, same deal, I walk away.
- as for the compliments - all those compliments have made her think that you think she is somehow better than you

The one other challenge you have is that she seems to try to make any issue a huge deal. If it was me,
I would give her a 10 scale, provide some examples:
Adultery: 10
You striking her: 10
You cursing at her: 7
You yelling at her without profanity: 5
You asking her to fill in on a kid pickup with no notice: 5
With a full weeks notice: 2

Anyway use real examples and tell her the scores go both ways.

And then ask what she thinks the level of aggression should be for each.

Btw this is a fair exercise. In our first year my w would go crazy over small stuff.

That all stopped the day I started to pack my bags. 


QUOTE=veryconfusedhusband;646238]PHTLump - Thanks but I feel I have already tried the not engage bit and she says this is stonewalling or withdrawing. She is a psychologist and has read most of the marriage books. I read the book and yep that is what I am doing. Because my dam answer is my answer or like you advise just don't engage. I really don't want to win arguments I could care less - just can't keep losing them cause that has not worked out so well. So how do you not engage -- when she will want to discuss it later and ask 5 more clarifying questions? I am just going to hold my position. This is all I have to say. I think she knows it is BS to keep asking me stuff over and over but she does it anyway in clever ways. I am a smart guy but not in the ways that she is.[/QUOTE]
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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Well I do think she has responded better this go around then last time when I just fell all over her. I have tried repeatedly to point out how we argue about petty things but I think it is really about power. She does not feel heard etc so she overdoes it in compensation. MEMS - funny thing I think you gave me some decent advice a long time back but I was not ready to listen. Conditioned to just give more love and time to meeting her needs that somehow that was going to get her to meet mine. Well that did not work out and si glad I did not agree to go back to MC.
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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> PHTLump - Thanks but I feel I have already tried the not engage bit and she says this is stonewalling or withdrawing.


Of course that's what it is. That doesn't mean it's an inappropriate strategy. Wouldn't you withdraw from a crazy homeless man who wanted to argue with you? I know I would.

If your wife wants to have a discussion, or even an argument, and she can have it in a respectful manner, then you should absolutely accommodate her. But you've said she isn't interested in discussing or arguing anything respectfully. She wants to badger you until she wins. If that's the case, then the only winning move is not to play (life lesson from War Games).



veryconfusedhusband said:


> I really don't want to win arguments I could care less - just can't keep losing them cause that has not worked out so well.


If you're arguing correctly (i.e. respectfully), then it doesn't matter whether you win or lose. If you lose, then your wife has convinced you that her choice of action is better than yours. So she saved you from making the wrong choice. Good for you. It's a big man who can admit that he was wrong and change his course of action. Women like that.

If you're arguing incorrectly, such as you seem to be doing now, then your wife doesn't even care whether the two of you make the best choice. She just wants it to be her choice. And the best way to deal with that situation is to withdraw until she can forget about winning and focus on making the best decision as a couple.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> So how do you not engage -- when she will want to discuss it later and ask 5 more clarifying questions? I am just going to hold my position. This is all I have to say. I think she knows it is BS to keep asking me stuff over and over but she does it anyway in clever ways. I am a smart guy but not in the ways that she is.


It seems simple to say, but you don't engage by not engaging. Walk away. If she follows you, keep walking. If she keeps hounding you, tell her bluntly that you're finished with the discussion until she can be more respectful. If she refuses to adjust her behavior, you keep withdrawing.

You have to keep it up until she changes. That's important. You can't refuse to engage immediately, yet engage her after she's yelled at you for 10 minutes. That's probably worse than immediately caving. You have to refuse to engage for hours, or days, or weeks, until she changes her behavior.

So let her know what you're doing. Let her know that, if she wants you to engage, she has the power to bring you back into a discussion. And she has the power to keep you disengaged. You're just reacting to her behavior.

Good luck.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Usually she argues respectively and carefully. It is a thorough pyschological cross exam I get a lot of. Well what do you mean by that? Huh I mean what just said. Well then can you explain that further? It seems to go on and on until she gets her answer or I refuse to talk anymore. Sometimes she will even say "well I hear what you are saying but I don't believe that to be true" this is reference to an original thought so I get so frustrated as that is BS cause that is reallyy answer. I accept her answers and don't challenge them. You see she is not the classic nagging or mean angry wife. She is calm collected and very careful with her words. She even used to say stuff like I don't think you heard me tell me what I just said....keep in mind I am so bored with these mental gymnastics I often start to tune some of it out and if I miss one nuance she is pissed. Well I don't play that anymore I just remind her that my English is quite good I understand it all. Example she often asks me to defIne words for her when she is reading but she almost always kills me at scrabble.
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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

She is playing intellectual games with you. This is not a psychological debate, this is your marriage. I don't know why she disconnected from you, but you need to take action to get her attention. She knows you will not leave her, and she is perfectly comfortable ignoring your needs.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Sounds like she likes to bounce around from topic to topic, and change the focus of a conversation every few sentences. Sounds like she almost enjoys verbal jousting, but I could be wrong.

I try and keep my wife on topic. I've let her know I prefer to take a single issue and drive it to solution or at least to a point where we can both agree to disagree.

When my wife brings up another topic, I try and tell her that I'd love to get back to that later (oh and I try and do my best to get back to that topic later), but for now we are talking about X. I just keep steering the conversation back to the main point.

So imo you two should tackle just one issue at a time, and not get into semantic/syntactic arguments (they are often times a waste of energy).


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

OK. So, it's not necessarily about nagging. I think the pertinent question is, why does she feel compelled to argue about trivial things? That may be a test right there.

As to her style of argument, well I guess that's just her professional life coming through in her personal life. Psychologists/counselors are taught to talk things up one side and down the other. I understand that it's annoying. But, that's not necessarily a test.

I suppose what you need to do is limit the time you spend arguing with her. First, make sure she's arguing in a proper manner with respect to you. Second, make sure she's arguing about a topic that's legitimate. And third, just make sure that it doesn't go on too long.

You could either come up with an external reason to cut the argument short, such as running late for the gym, or you could just state that you've argued long enough, you've each expressed your opinions, and now it's over.

Good luck.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Thanks to all who have commented. And I am seeing progress so we shall see if these holds.
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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Well there goes that 3 day run where I thought things getting better. Yesterday something big cane through financially and I texted her hey guess what looks like will be getting x thousands soon let's celebrate tonight. She comments yeah that's great news about the money but nothing about celebrating. I specifically did not send an explicit text and even left celebrate a bit vague but I guess this made her uncomfortable. We had nice night Saturday with sex and talking into the evening and it had been three nights so I thought perfect need to break out of this three Saturday nights a month only which is our default pattern. So I get home and she is a bit distant but I just stayed positive and gave her a nice playful hug and peck. I took one I our kids on a errand. Anyway after dinner she is I. The tub so u go in and shave. I know he likes to chat when in tub so anyway she says well why you shaving. I said well I thought I might kiss you tonight. She smiles but does not say much which I took for ok. Anyway after kids go to sleep we talk for awhile watch a silly show and then she says "ok I want to know if it is ok not to have sex." I want to say sure maybe tomorrow night but I get this is just more pressure and I felt let down again. I paused and said well yes I am disappointed I thought you wanted to and what is wrong it seems I always get rejected. She said well I just feel pressure and then goes into how I have been doing my own thing lately and why didn't you ask me I I wanted go shopping too. I am a such a loss he went into her whole bit about connection etc but I told her it has never worked out that way. I also blurted out I really just wish I didn't want you so much and let her know that I have needs to but she does not get it eants more MC.
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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi veryconfused ~

Sorry you had a bit of a downer last night after some progress. That is disappointing (but congrats on the financial success!) 

Changing the dynamic between you two will be a process - keep working on the positive changes that you have been making. 

And work on responses you can give when she tries to pull the 'get out of sex free card'. What would she do if instead of saying "but I just want you so much" you said "I'm going to hold you to it tomorrow night, baby! Count on it!" winked, got up and went about your business cheerfully?

Don't hinge your happiness on what she does or doesn't do - hinge it on yourself.

Best wishes.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Oh that is a no no I can't say lets just do it tomorrow night because to her that is to much pressure as maybe she will not want to the next night either. That is why it is so tough and why I was like really again? last night because this pattern of rejection is so old. 

Yes I thought we had made progress but I was so annoyed. It is like she needs every single emotional need met before she can consider my needs. It seems MC is to convince me of her needs or something cause unless something happens to me I am always going to desire sex more than a few times per month. And I am absolutely sick of it always being on her terms. 

I am a good man, a good father, good job, and more than decent locking. I told her last night if she does not want me she needs to let me go. Did i pack my bags no...I love her and she loves me and I know there is nobody else she is interested in. 

I love her but my resentment is building. I want to wake up with my kids every morning I do not want to separate but she is so block headed -- I keep telling her this is just not fair or normal and she insists well I don't care about other people. 

I just don't know how to act. Do I go on and try to enjoy my life? She says it seems you are always gone and busy -- duh I am tired of being sucked into your web. She says if we had a closer emotional connection this area of our lives would be easier. I point out it has never ever worked out that way and the more I try to meet these needs of hers the more disappointed I become when she does not meet mine. 

I feel stuck in not wanting to go to MC with her. For what? to be tested between each appt? This is pretty simple to me. I wish I never met her....sucks to even think that but I do now. How can you say that about someone you really love? I guess it is because I don't like her anymore. I find myself muttering obscenities under my breath ---- I have never ever called her a name before and don't intend to start but man I am running out of rope.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That isnt quite right confused. Even if you had invited her shopping she would have said no. When you did 3 months of that nothing changes.
That is simply her excuse - her way of saying it is your fault as well.

She likely either dislikes sex or isn't that attracted to you.

I think she is afraid to tell you the truth, doesn't want you angry or leaving. So she says it's partly yor fault to give you hope that if you just found a way to be perfect bit would all work out well in bed.

That said - no woman is going to felons well to a man saying "but I just want you so much, right after she rejects him. It is begging and pitiful. And a giant turn off.

You show some frightening amount of weakness to her.




TE=veryconfusedhusband;653358]Oh that is a no no I can't say lets just do it tomorrow night because to her that is to much pressure as maybe she will not want to the next night either. That is why it is so tough and why I was like really again? last night because this pattern of rejection is so old. 

Yes I thought we had made progress but I was so annoyed. It is like she needs every single emotional need met before she can consider my needs. It seems MC is to convince me of her needs or something cause unless something happens to me I am always going to desire sex more than a few times per month. And I am absolutely sick of it always being on her terms. 

I am a good man, a good father, good job, and more than decent locking. I told her last night if she does not want me she needs to let me go. Did i pack my bags no...I love her and she loves me and I know there is nobody else she is interested in. 

I love her but my resentment is building. I want to wake up with my kids every morning I do not want to separate but she is so block headed -- I keep telling her this is just not fair or normal and she insists well I don't care about other people. 

I just don't know how to act. Do I go on and try to enjoy my life? She says it seems you are always gone and busy -- duh I am tired of being sucked into your web. She says if we had a closer emotional connection this area of our lives would be easier. I point out it has never ever worked out that way and the more I try to meet these needs of hers the more disappointed I become when she does not meet mine. 

I feel stuck in not wanting to go to MC with her. For what? to be tested between each appt? This is pretty simple to me. I wish I never met her....sucks to even think that but I do now. How can you say that about someone you really love? I guess it is because I don't like her anymore. I find myself muttering obscenities under my breath ---- I have never ever called her a name before and don't intend to start but man I am running out of rope.[/QUOTE]
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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Yes I am weak for my love of her. I actually believe she is weak to me as well and this is why she does this to me she fears failure and abandonment. I want the home run and believe if I leave I will be batting singles the rest of my life - she will crack and then be so angry if I leave her and our two small children. Our marriage will not be able to recover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Yes I am weak for my love of her. I actually believe she is weak to me as well and this is why she does this to me she fears failure and abandonment.


She fears you will leave her, so she refuses to meet your needs? That makes no sense.

You have Stockholm syndrome. Your wife has mistreated you for so long that you assume she must have a good reason. It can't be because she doesn't care about you. It must be that she cares too much, right? Get real.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> I want the home run and believe if I leave I will be batting singles the rest of my life - she will crack and then be so angry if I leave her and our two small children. Our marriage will not be able to recover.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you leave, your marriage may end. That is true.

However, there is a third option, besides leaving and the status quo. You can consistently follow the advice of the people on this board. Stop listening to her words. She is a liar. Pay attention to her actions.

You turned down the thermostat for a few days and she turned up the sex. At the same time, she told you that she didn't like you turning down the thermostat. So, her words tell you that she isn't attracted to you, but her actions say that she is. And you're such a dope that you disregard her actions and listen to her words.

And to make matters worse, you start whining about it. That sets you right back to square one.

You're a parent, so I'll phrase this in terms you can easily understand. Wives are like children. They will test you and the way to pass their tests is to be consistent with them. If you tell your kids that they're not allowed to eat cookies before dinner, and then you never punish them, you can bet that they will always eat cookies before dinner. Test failed. If you punish them only occasionally, they will usually eat cookies before dinner. Test failed. If you punish them every time, most children will eventually stop eating cookies before dinner. Test passed.

Right now, you're transitioning from the never punish your wife phase to the occasionally punishing your wife. You need to keep improving. Don't go from usually whining to sometimes whining. Go all the way to never whining. That's what your wife wants.

Good luck.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

I do enjoy coming here but it is impossible to really understand someones situation. So she turned up sex -- no she followed normal pattern of sex on Saturday night only. It would have been turned up if the last failed effort had worked out.

I believe she is so worried about us failing she is afraid that we are not doing everything to save our marriage. For her this is reading tons of marriage books and returning to MC. 

Yes I do feel like this marriage is totally unfair but she fails to get it. Yes it would have been better the other night to just blow it off and it did set me back but hey I am not a robot. The whole 180 thing seems to be only partially effective with her. If she does not feel me close to her she feels abandoned I think there is a larger issue of her father basically taking off from the family when she was young. So she constantly prepares herself for that disappointment --- she has never forgiven him. Feels like she has lumped me in with him. 

She resents that she loves me. She resents that I can let her down. Yeah its messed up but this is what I am dealing with. Time will tell. Real time. Not the time separated by a few posts on here which give the impression of time.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

You are on the right path. Keep working on yourself.

Go buy No More Mr. Nice Guy and read it. This sounds like a salvageable situation, but you need to quit with the pestering, whiny "I want sex" thing.

Why do you allow your wife to set the emotional tone? If you are in a good mood, be in a good mood. If she isn't, who cares? Not your problem to fix so get away. Go do something else, like exercise, hobby, whatever. You are like a little dog wandering lost around the table, waiting for a scrap of love or affection or even better, sex!

I have been there - doesn't work! 

Look what happens when you put your needs first - wife responds positively. Action, reaction. Learn, adjust. Don't go back to old behavior.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Oh that is a no no I can't say lets just do it tomorrow night because to her that is to much pressure as maybe she will not want to the next night either. That is why it is so tough and why I was like really again? last night because this pattern of rejection is so old.
> 
> Yes I thought we had made progress but I was so annoyed. It is like she needs every single emotional need met before she can consider my needs. It seems MC is to convince me of her needs or something cause unless something happens to me I am always going to desire sex more than a few times per month. And I am absolutely sick of it always being on her terms.
> 
> ...


Hi veryconfused ~

Frankling Roosevelt said "When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on."

So, tie your knot and keep plodding forward. 

Yes, your wife will test your mettle as a man. She will want to see what kind of stuff you are made of.

What is your concern about returning to MC? She may see that as obstructionist and coupled with you pulling back and being more aloof, maybe she is getting mixed messages - you want a better marriage and more intimacy, but you don't act like it. Maybe your words and actions are not aligning.

I do know that you will have to 'stand tall' when she tests you like she has been, so I agree with what MEM and PHT and FNG have said.

Hang in there, veryconfused. I'm rooting for you.

Best wishes.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> I do enjoy coming here but it is impossible to really understand someones situation. So she turned up sex -- no she followed normal pattern of sex on Saturday night only. It would have been turned up if the last failed effort had worked out.


I misunderstood your post. By you stating that it had been three nights, I thought you had sex the past three nights.

I get that your wife doesn't want sex. And I understand that it's hard to get around it. It may be impossible. But you have to change strategies.

There are three scenarios that I can think of that will lead to more sex and a happier relationship for you.

The first is that you understand what your wife wants you to do, you just haven't been able to do enough of it. So, you increase your efforts and finally get over the very high hurdle she has set. And she finally feels that you have passed her test and rewards you with sex. I don't think this scenario is very likely.

The second scenario is that you keep doing what you've been doing and your wife finally reads some book or talks to a counselor, or you, and it dawns on her that you need sex to be happy. So, she finally gets it and give you sex. I don't think this scenario is likely, either.

The third scenario is that your wife has told you what she wants, but she's either lying, or she doesn't understand what she wants. So you're doing what she says she wants, but she's not satisfied. So, you change your strategy and start doing things differently. Your wife is pleased by this in ways she doesn't even understand. And she gives you sex because she's happier with you. I think this is the most likely scenario.

Now, it's possible that none of these scenarios will work. Your wife may be so closed off that she would rather drive you away than be hurt when you leave her. That's crazy, but people do it all the time. But, it seems to me that you've tried scenarios 1 and 2 with no success. So I think you need to switch things up and go with number 3. Stop giving your wife so much power over you. It may, or may not work. But I've only seen two cases of women on these boards just spontaneously "getting it" and providing more sex to their husbands who were content to just sit around and wait. All the other success stories are comprised of HD spouses changing their approach to their LD spouse, and the LD spouse responding positively.

Good luck.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

First off I will never meet all of her emotional needs. She points out little things like a single comment or tone which seems to set back the whole day for her. I cannot be perfect she wants to train me and it ain't happening. Her overall points are valid and I have totally let go of some past issues - like I cone home after work he house would be a total mess she would have no idea what was for dinner and I used to get so annoyed that she would spend hours on little projects but not taking care of basics first. Now I just ignore it in fact it does not even bother me even though I will never understand how she thinks it it ok. That was two years ago. I told her I would return to MC but let her know I am concerned that this will be the disaster for me as it was last time with me making the effort and her just waiting forever for her to make a move. Plus I have addressed most of her earlier concerns. But she does not see that she wants a robot that is predictable. I think she fears uncertainty and loss of control more than anything else. I think MEM has made great comments but I do bristle when I hear his description of his marriage it sounds disconnected to me. But I bet I am just taking that out if context this board is helpful but sometimes illusory.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Well there goes that 3 day run where I thought things getting better. Yesterday something big cane through financially and I texted her hey guess what looks like will be getting x thousands soon let's celebrate tonight. She comments yeah that's great news about the money but nothing about celebrating. I specifically did not send an explicit text and even left celebrate a bit vague but I guess this made her uncomfortable. We had nice night Saturday with sex and talking into the evening and it had been three nights so I thought perfect need to break out of this three Saturday nights a month only which is our default pattern. So I get home and she is a bit distant but I just stayed positive and gave her a nice playful hug and peck. I took one I our kids on a errand. Anyway after dinner she is I. The tub so u go in and shave. I know he likes to chat when in tub so anyway she says well why you shaving. I said well I thought I might kiss you tonight. She smiles but does not say much which I took for ok. Anyway after kids go to sleep we talk for awhile watch a silly show and then she says "ok I want to know if it is ok not to have sex." I want to say sure maybe tomorrow night but I get this is just more pressure and I felt let down again. I paused and said well yes I am disappointed I thought you wanted to and what is wrong it seems I always get rejected. She said well I just feel pressure and then goes into how I have been doing my own thing lately and* why didn't you ask me I I wanted go shopping too. *I am a such a loss he went into her whole bit about connection etc but I told her it has never worked out that way. I also blurted out I really just wish I didn't want you so much and let her know that I have needs to but she does not get it eants more MC.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you missed a golden opportunity to turn this on her. When she asked this question, the response should have been "I did not ask you because I feel like you don't want me around or smoothering you. Because of that, I am giving you space to make you happy. Isn't that what you want?" Then keep coming back to this until you get some real answers. If she tries to move to a different topic (which is almost a certainty, get her right back to this) and hang on like a dog fighting for a bone.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

veryconfusedhusband said:


> First off I will never meet all of her emotional needs. She points out little things like *a single comment or tone which seems to set back the whole day for her.* I cannot be perfect she wants to train me and it ain't happening. Her overall points are valid and I have totally let go of some past issues - like I cone home after work he house would be a total mess she would have no idea what was for dinner and I used to get so annoyed that she would spend hours on little projects but not taking care of basics first. Now I just ignore it in fact it does not even bother me even though I will never understand how she thinks it it ok. That was two years ago. I told her I would return to MC but let her know I am concerned that this will be the disaster for me as it was last time with me making the effort and her just waiting forever for her to make a move. Plus I have addressed most of her earlier concerns. *But she does not see that she wants a robot that is predictable.* I think she fears uncertainty and loss of control more than anything else. I think MEM has made great comments but I do bristle when I hear his description of his marriage it sounds disconnected to me. But I bet I am just taking that out if context this board is helpful but sometimes illusory.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She wants a robot she can control. You have likely let her do that for too long. She gets to be imperfect, yet is given free reign to point out your littlest flaw and dwell on them for as long as she needs. She has elevated her feelings and needs above all else, while ignoring yours. Read though some of MEM's posts, including those dealing with apologizing and the thermostat. You will get great advice for what is a very tough problem for you.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

PHTlump said:


> She fears you will leave her, so she refuses to meet your needs? That makes no sense.
> 
> You have Stockholm syndrome. Your wife has mistreated you for so long that you assume she must have a good reason. It can't be because she doesn't care about you. It must be that she cares too much, right? Get real.
> 
> ...


Excellent f*cking post


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## Mestupxtian (Mar 30, 2012)

It sounds like you two are completely disconnected. She seems to be nitpicking and you are tuning her out. When you do, she plays mrs. nice wife and you return and the cycle starts all over again. This is a very destructive way to live a marriage. I don't recommend leaving your spouse, physically or emotionally. Those that say that you should "do your own thing" or "just make yourself happy" totally miss the point of a marriage - oneness and mutual happiness.

Here's my suggestions and I am not a therapist or a counselor, so take it as advice from someone who has been happily married for 7+ years. Get her buy-in on the relationship. Tell her something like "I want this to work out and I want both of us to be happy, but I just feel there is something between us" or something like that. Once she says she wants things to work out, suggest a retreat together. I would get away, just the two of you - no life, no kids, no jobs - for at least a weekend if not a week (if you can manage it). I would plan a retreat that doesn't involve activities. Spend the time talking things out. This will be much easier if you get away to a marriage conference-type weekend.

My wife and I really like the Family Life "Weekend to Remember" conferences. They are about 1.5 days of discussion about common problems in marriages and would hit all the areas that you are indicating are problems in your marriage (conflict resolution, communication, sex and intimacy, etc.). Do this together so you can both point out things that you feel are inadequate from the other partner (and be open to what she has to say). Being a psychologist, she will probably soak it up. Google it, or another conference, and find one that is far enough away to make it a get away, but soon enough that you can strike while the iron is hot.

You stated that she doesn't have many female friends to talk to. Women need other women to talke to that can encourage them in a way that we men just can't. If you are part of a local church, see if there are any couples or marrieds groups that meet. If you aren't part of a church and are comfortable with it, you may try and find a local church to go to (I promise, they don't bite). If church or religion isn't your thing, find an organization that you both agree on that you can get involved with together and where you can meet other adults. You want her to meet other women who will be a positive influence on her, which is why I bring up churches first. Though you can find some bad apples in every bunch, churches are less likely to have a whole lot of the "Elizabeth Taylors" of the marriage world.

Lastly, find a new MC. Tell her that you don't feel like you are getting anywhere with the one that you are with now and you would like a fresh face and new ideas for how to work things out. Find one that will hold you BOTH accountable for making the marriage work. If you can see an issue with your wife's committment to the MC's plan and your MC can't, then it is time for someone new.


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

Thank you all for the feedback. We have had some good discussions and offered again to go to a new MC. She is stuck on this concept of our problems in the bedroom are related to her lack of attraction due to past behaviors. She sees that in the past few years I have made major improvements but states that because of this history it is hard to overlook a comment now even if accidental or misunderstood. I am trying to convey some understanding yet pointing out that she too can be critical and difficult at times and that I will never be perfect. I also have explained that during those years our lack of a sexual connection is in some ways responsible as I need that part. The funny thing is the next day I pointed out to her that one of the cupboards came off the hinges again and was stuck. She knows this is nobodys fault but she still gave me a bad look and shook her head. Haha I got my example so easily and of course I let her know. "hey that is the kind of stuff you get so angry when I do it". She smiled. Later that day she came up out of nowhere and gave me a nice kiss and that night we had sex. No asking no talking about it and it was good. But it was Saturday night so this that has not changed. Enchantment I like your quote and no I will not let go. Life is getting better and I can't expect her to change overnight. I am still certain that standing up and saying no to MC was the best move I made. Yes I am agreeing to go back but you see she has not said a word since it is just a test I think and if she sets it up I will go but I am not playing the go slow while on therapy thing ever again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

VCH,
Your perception is getting better and better. You are refusing to allow extremely one sided exchanges. You are also refusing to let her play "hunt the Unicorn". 

Since the Unicorn doesn't exist, you can waste your entire life looking for him. Your W claims that you must create the mythical perfect environment for her if you want sex more than 3 times a month. As you have realized that will never happen. Even if you agreed with everything she said, she would see you as a doormat, be repulsed and want even less sex with you. 






veryconfusedhusband said:


> First off I will never meet all of her emotional needs. She points out little things like a single comment or tone which seems to set back the whole day for her. I cannot be perfect she wants to train me and it ain't happening. Her overall points are valid and I have totally let go of some past issues - like I cone home after work he house would be a total mess she would have no idea what was for dinner and I used to get so annoyed that she would spend hours on little projects but not taking care of basics first. Now I just ignore it in fact it does not even bother me even though I will never understand how she thinks it it ok. That was two years ago. I told her I would return to MC but let her know I am concerned that this will be the disaster for me as it was last time with me making the effort and her just waiting forever for her to make a move. Plus I have addressed most of her earlier concerns. But she does not see that she wants a robot that is predictable. I think she fears uncertainty and loss of control more than anything else. I think MEM has made great comments but I do bristle when I hear his description of his marriage it sounds disconnected to me. But I bet I am just taking that out if context this board is helpful but sometimes illusory.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Vch,
Why do you think my w and I are disconnected?

UOTE=veryconfusedhusband;657262]Thank you all for the feedback. We have had some good discussions and offered again to go to a new MC. She is stuck on this concept of our problems in the bedroom are related to her lack of attraction due to past behaviors. She sees that in the past few years I have made major improvements but states that because of this history it is hard to overlook a comment now even if accidental or misunderstood. I am trying to convey some understanding yet pointing out that she too can be critical and difficult at times and that I will never be perfect. I also have explained that during those years our lack of a sexual connection is in some ways responsible as I need that part. The funny thing is the next day I pointed out to her that one of the cupboards came off the hinges again and was stuck. She knows this is nobodys fault but she still gave me a bad look and shook her head. Haha I got my example so easily and of course I let her know. "hey that is the kind of stuff you get so angry when I do it". She smiled. Later that day she came up out of nowhere and gave me a nice kiss and that night we had sex. No asking no talking about it and it was good. But it was Saturday night so this that has not changed. Enchantment I like your quote and no I will not let go. Life is getting better and I can't expect her to change overnight. I am still certain that standing up and saying no to MC was the best move I made. Yes I am agreeing to go back but you see she has not said a word since it is just a test I think and if she sets it up I will go but I am not playing the go slow while on therapy thing ever again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## veryconfusedhusband (Jul 3, 2010)

MEM first off I probably have very little understanding of your marriage and I think the vast majority if your comments are good. But the way in which you described how you have this whole system down when your wife is unpleasant in which you explained how you would first raise your hand and then you explained two more steps you use. It just struck a chord with me in a negative way but as I stated when I said that I probably don't really understand your marriage as our understanding iod each other in here is illusory. For example I do not believe my wife thinks I am a doormat at all. She is just clinging to this belief that she can change me or train me and it is not going to work. It has never worked for her as she is in more discomfort than I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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