# "Toxic Friend" or no?



## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

I have a question for the group.

My story is enormously long (most of it is still here on TAM, go look it up if you'd like) but the bottom line is that roughly five years ago my wife engaged in a couple extra-marital sexual relationships. My question regards the other people in her life during that time, her friends and family for example. If I were to try to group them according to how they responded to the knowledge of her indiscretions (meaning fully aware that she was cheating or willing to cheat, not simply deciding to divorce and open to meeting new people), I would categorize them as such:

*1. Fully Supportive (even excited):* In a "Awesome! We can go clubbing together! My boyfriend has a friend who is super hot and I hear he is great in bed, I should set you up with him! We could go to their place so that you won't risk getting caught." Basically encouraging the adulterous behavior, regardless of the reasons or justifications.
*2. Emotionally Supportive:* Like, "Oh gosh... I'm so sorry to hear how rough your marriage has been, your husband sounds like a real A-hole. Don't worry, I won't say anything. Is there anything you need right now?" Just short of encouraging the adultery, but willing to be supportive of it. Including possibly meeting the affair partner, hanging out together with them, maybe even assisting with a "cover story" or alibi for the BS when called upon, because the sympathy she feels for her friend and the awful marriage she has been living. While this type is normally opposed to cheating, they might feel it is acceptable when a marriage has become this miserable or is otherwise "doomed to end soon anyway" so why wait?
*3. Begrudgingly Accomplice:* Like, "Wow I'm sorry to hear your marriage is on the rocks. How long have you been involved with this other guy?? I won't say anything to him about it, but I really believe you shouldn't be seeing anyone else until you've been up front and honest with your husband about how you feel about the marriage and make a decision about how to move forward." Basically opposed to the adultery but not wanting to ruin her friend's trust and still be supportive.
*4. Opposed: * Like, "Wow... Honestly I value you as a friend, and I'm sorry you're going through a rough time, but I really can't support your decision to cheat on your marriage. If you can't end that relationship or decide with your husband that the marriage is over, then you are putting me in a really difficult position and I'll probably have to tell your husband myself soon."


So my question now is, especially after a successful reconciliation, which of these types of friends should be considered "toxic" and disassociated with? Are there any degree's of "gray area" here that might involve some special considerations?


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## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

cdbaker said:


> I have a question for the group.
> 
> My story is enormously long (most of it is still here on TAM, go look it up if you'd like) but the bottom line is that roughly five years ago my wife engaged in a couple extra-marital sexual relationships. My question regards the other people in her life during that time, her friends and family for example. If I were to try to group them according to how they responded to the knowledge of her indiscretions (meaning fully aware that she was cheating or willing to cheat, not simply deciding to divorce and open to meeting new people), I would categorize them as such:
> 
> ...


#4 is awesome. The rest are really bad people and karma will take a dump on them.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

1, 2, 3

and nope.


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## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

On a related note, if she's a former cheater then she forfeits girl's nights out for the rest of her life. That's like taking a former crack addict to a crack house. No secrets. No private accounts or passwords you don't know. No opposite sex friends even at work. No girls night out. Once she cheated and wanted to redeem herself then she has to know that all these things are now out of bounds forever.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

1.2.3. are toxic. No gray area.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

#1 is obviously toxic, I think it would be clear to anyone that those type of friends are selfish and destructive, probably not just as it relates to this matter.

I agree that some variation of #4 is most ideal. 

#2 and #3 is where I think there might be the most disagreement... For #3, honestly I can understand their position. Sympathetic to her friend being in a miserable marriage, married to a crappy husband (especially from the one-sided version of the story they are inevitably told), etc., but also morally feeling that adultery is wrong so she advises her friend to either stop seeing the other person while the marriage issue is still uncertain, or quickly make a decision with her husband one way or the other, honestly. That type of friend is probably doing her best to reconcile her two values, one to support her friend in need, the other to respect her personal values. In my case, I was frustrated with these friends/family for not more strongly discouraging the adultery or threatening to out her, but I can understand their dilemma and I don't think I would consider them to be "toxic", or the type of people that my wife should disassociate with long term.

#2... I would lean more towards these type of people as being toxic. I can respect their desire to be sympathetic towards someone who is expressing to them the pain/struggles they are dealing with, someone who is emotionally in a very tough place. While not encouraging the affair, showing a willingness to support it, help cover it up, even be involved with it such as meeting the other man, hanging out with him together, provide a "cover story" for her when called upon, etc., is WAY across the "toxic" line in my view.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

cdbaker said:


> I have a question for the group.
> 
> My story is enormously long (most of it is still here on TAM, go look it up if you'd like) but the bottom line is that roughly five years ago my wife engaged in a couple extra-marital sexual relationships. My question regards the other people in her life during that time, her friends and family for example. If I were to try to group them according to how they responded to the knowledge of her indiscretions (meaning fully aware that she was cheating or willing to cheat, not simply deciding to divorce and open to meeting new people), I would categorize them as such:
> 
> ...


#1 for sure, and probably #2 as well.

Maybe #3 also... sort of depends on the circumstances, who #2 is to you (the BS), etc.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

1, 2, and 3 nned to go. 4 is the type of friend that supports the marriage and has appropriate values.

The problem with 3 is that once they have taken this position the next time that the WS strays then precedence is set and they will have history and will support them even the more. Once they have taken this position there is only downhill from there. You can't trust them and it will only get worse, so 3 needs to go as well.

Toxic friends are those that don't support a marriage and correct boundaries and 4 is that only one that shows such correct values.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> 1, 2, and 3 nned to go. 4 is the type of friend that supports the marriage and has appropriate values.
> 
> The problem with 3 is that once they have taken this position the next time that the WS strays then precedence is set and they will have history and will support them even the more. Once they have taken this position there is only downhill from there. You can't trust them and it will only get worse, so 3 needs to go as well.
> 
> Toxic friends are those that don't support a marriage and correct boundaries and 4 is that only one that shows such correct values.


Fair points for sure, though I could also see #3 going the opposite direction. They established a clear precedent of being opposed to adultery under any circumstance the first time around, only they were hesitant to "betray" their friend with that information and instead simply tried to be supportive by encouraging her to do the right thing, for everyone's betterment, to end the affair and work with her husband to make a decision regarding the marriage first. If after reconciliation a similar situation developed in the future, then I think the original precedent would still hold true and this friend might be more likely to switch over to #4. Sort of like, "[Friend Name], I understand you are in a rough situation in your marriage, and I certainly have sympathy, but you've been down this road before and you know it's wrong and you know what the right thing to do here is." From there I could see them going the #4 route in threatening to out her if she doesn't do it herself quickly, or taking a middle road and simply saying that she can't be involved with her in any way while she continues to pursue these immoral paths, essentially walking away.

I would be fully supportive of that type of friend. So I agree with your last statement completely, but I think a #3 type friend usually wouldn't qualify.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

These kinds of "friends" make me have fantasies of an "Old Boy" (Original Korean movie version) form of revenge.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

cdbaker said:


> *1. Fully Supportive (even excited):* In a "Awesome! We can go clubbing together! My boyfriend has a friend who is super hot and I hear he is great in bed, I should set you up with him! We could go to their place so that you won't risk getting caught." Basically encouraging the adulterous behavior, regardless of the reasons or justifications.


Highly toxic and should be disassociated




> *2. Emotionally Supportive:* Like, "Oh gosh... I'm so sorry to hear how rough your marriage has been, your husband sounds like a real A-hole. Don't worry, I won't say anything. Is there anything you need right now?" Just short of encouraging the adultery, but willing to be supportive of it.



Highly toxic and should be disassociated




> *3. Begrudgingly Accomplice:* Like, "Wow I'm sorry to hear your marriage is on the rocks. How long have you been involved with this other guy?? I won't say anything to him about it, but I really believe you shouldn't be seeing anyone else until you've been up front and honest with your husband about how you feel about the marriage and make a decision about how to move forward." Basically opposed to the adultery but not wanting to ruin her friend's trust and still be supportive.


Not really toxic, but still nothing the BS should be thrilled about.
Disassociated? Tough one here. I'd say no, but the BS has the right to not want to be around the friend that helps the WS keep secrets.




> *4. Opposed: * Like, "Wow... Honestly I value you as a friend, and I'm sorry you're going through a rough time, but I really can't support your decision to cheat on your marriage. If you can't end that relationship or decide with your husband that the marriage is over, then you are putting me in a really difficult position and I'll probably have to tell your husband myself soon."



A BS's dream!!!! And honestly, for the WS too IF they are wanting to reconcile. This is a friend of the marriage.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

1 and 2 would be definitely toxic, in my opinion. 3 is sadly the norm, I believe. These are generally upstanding people who disapprove, but don't think it's 'their business.' You can say that this is toxic - and I think I could agree to some extent - but when you do, you indict much of the population. 

For me, 3 is more a misguided or conflicted morality, i.e., do you 'stick your nose in' and 'rat a friend out,' or do you stay out of it? I'm not arguing that this is correct. My friends know that I am in category 4 & have been loath to confide in me about these things for that reason. (I'm always the last to know....)


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## Joe Cool (Feb 24, 2015)

5. I found out and already told your spouse. 

The rest are toxic. I don't play around with this sneaky, vow breaking, dishonest, dirt bag behavior. 

Not sorry about it either. 

I find out any so called friend kept a secret from me like my wife ****ing another man they are DONE. NO DISCUSSION. 

She wants to spend time with them after that then SHE AND I ARE DONE.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

cdbaker said:


> Fair points for sure, though I could also see #3 going the opposite direction. They established a clear precedent of being opposed to adultery under any circumstance the first time around, only they were hesitant to "betray" their friend with that information and instead simply tried to be supportive by encouraging her to do the right thing, for everyone's betterment, to end the affair and work with her husband to make a decision regarding the marriage first. If after reconciliation a similar situation developed in the future, then I think the original precedent would still hold true and this friend might be more likely to switch over to #4. Sort of like, "[Friend Name], I understand you are in a rough situation in your marriage, and I certainly have sympathy, but you've been down this road before and you know it's wrong and you know what the right thing to do here is." From there I could see them going the #4 route in threatening to out her if she doesn't do it herself quickly, or taking a middle road and simply saying that she can't be involved with her in any way while she continues to pursue these immoral paths, essentially walking away.
> 
> I would be fully supportive of that type of friend. So I agree with your last statement completely, but I think a #3 type friend usually wouldn't qualify.


You might be true and correct in your thoughts (and then again this might be your kinder side looking at the better side of humanity). I know that from my personal experience with this the type 3's originally that had the neutrality stance of wanting to be a good friend and not abandon and yet not fully support the marriage by cutting ties that didn't meet their own acceptability and morality never became type 4's when the cheating was repeated. 

When the offense was repeated (yes my WS is a serial cheater, only I had never found out about the movement onto other APs until all was revealed on D-Day), the type 3's that had felt pity for the WS as they had this notion that I was a bad spouse and the cause of all the issues, when they saw that the WS was willing to do this again they further believed the stories about me and willingly jumped into being type 2's (and a few went right to type 1's). None of the type 3's in this case that supported the WS became type 4's. Not ONE! 

The precedent having been set, they now saw as a truth and therefor became cheerleaders for the WS freedoms and mistreatment and abandoned their own morality in the process. Many would hang out at my house and accept my hospitality all the while denigrating me behind my back and furthering the support of the WS's actions. In fact I think some started to live vicariously as they saw lots of their own wants and desires in the WS's actions and became an armchair quarterback in the maneuvers as a way to get the thrill without affecting and upsetting their own situations.

I hope your WW's friends are different, but I would be willing to bet they are not and thus should be removed from your lives in order to help in your R.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

How about this alternative real-life scenario. My wife disassociated from all of the #1's all but two #2's and a few #3's. I've also been happy to see her reconnect with a few #4's whom she previously disassociated with after they refused to approve of her actions back then and eventually told me what was going on. Renewing her friendship with them since has helped show me that she no longer feels betrayed by what they did, and agrees that they did the right thing. The two #2's that she hasn't fully disassociated with (but still interacts with far less frequently) were/are a very close friend of hers, and that friend's mother whom she is also close to because they also worked together for a couple of years.

These two supported the affair, feeling that it was acceptable based on the following understandings: 1. I was an awful husband who treated her very poorly and 2. They were told that the marriage was effectively over and she would be filing for divorce in the near future. She eventually moved out about six weeks after the affair began, and I discovered the affair a few weeks later. Once the affair was public, my wife moved in with the other man and these two friends were more accepting/encouraging of their relationship. They went on group outings together, became friendly with the other man, along with others who HAVE been disassociated with since. On the flip side, after that relationship inevitably ended and my wife and I started talking more and spending time together, they were supportive of the notion of my wife giving our marriage another chance, and have continued to be supportive of us through today.

So I feel like there is some good and bad behavior in there. Does the good cancel out some of the bad? Is it just as wrong to be supportive of an affair relationship AFTER the relationship has gone public and been made "official?" (After all, I bet roughly 50% of the general public would say that its ok to date others while separated) Essentially, does any of this represent gray area?

My personal feeling has been... I think the bottom line is that anyone who feels that there is ever an acceptable reason to engage in adultery is ultimately a toxic friend. I can agree that there are varying degree's of "wrongness" as it relates to cheating and/or supporting a cheater. However I think there is a difference between someone who recognizes that adultery is always 100% wrong but just struggles with making the difficult choice to do the right thing, and someone who feels that cheating is USUALLY wrong, except for maybe in a few select circumstances. In my view, I feel like these two friends will more or less support anything based on which direction the wind is blowing, and therefore cannot be remotely trusted, regardless of the fact that they have been on the side of our marriage for about two and a half years now.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

These are all her friends to begin with, so your assessment of them supporting your marriage is based solely upon what they do to you and in front of you. Don't think that she and they are sharing their true feelings with you.

Also there is a difference between find and dating someone once a legal separation has been established and moving on with your life, versus continuing to date someone that you left your current marriage to be with that person. You can;t compare the two as one is a relationship started in secrecy that ended the other relationship and the second is normal moving on and healing, also dating doesn't mean sex is involved either (but with cheating it generally is and is partly the reason for the marriage dissolving). Not a fair comparison.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

cdbaker said:


> *1. Fully Supportive (even excited):* In a "Awesome! We can go clubbing together! My boyfriend has a friend who is super hot and I hear he is great in bed, I should set you up with him! We could go to their place so that you won't risk getting caught." Basically encouraging the adulterous behavior, regardless of the reasons or justifications.
> *2. Emotionally Supportive:* Like, "Oh gosh... I'm so sorry to hear how rough your marriage has been, your husband sounds like a real A-hole. Don't worry, I won't say anything. Is there anything you need right now?" Just short of encouraging the adultery, but willing to be supportive of it. Including possibly meeting the affair partner, hanging out together with them, maybe even assisting with a "cover story" or alibi for the BS when called upon, because the sympathy she feels for her friend and the awful marriage she has been living. While this type is normally opposed to cheating, they might feel it is acceptable when a marriage has become this miserable or is otherwise "doomed to end soon anyway" so why wait?
> *3. Begrudgingly Accomplice:* Like, "Wow I'm sorry to hear your marriage is on the rocks. How long have you been involved with this other guy?? I won't say anything to him about it, but I really believe you shouldn't be seeing anyone else until you've been up front and honest with your husband about how you feel about the marriage and make a decision about how to move forward." Basically opposed to the adultery but not wanting to ruin her friend's trust and still be supportive.
> *4. Opposed: * Like, "Wow... Honestly I value you as a friend, and I'm sorry you're going through a rough time, but I really can't support your decision to cheat on your marriage. If you can't end that relationship or decide with your husband that the marriage is over, then you are putting me in a really difficult position and I'll probably have to tell your husband myself soon."


 1 and 2 are toxic. 3 and 4 are not. Some here are saying that number 3 is toxic, but I disagree. Number 3 will be the only person that stays in the cheater's life, that the cheater trusts as a friend, that will be telling the cheater to do the right thing ("I really believe you shouldn't be seeing anyone else until you've been up front and honest with your husband about how you feel about the marriage ").


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Joe Cool said:


> 5. I found out and already told your spouse.


How about:

5. I found out and already told your spouse. And we can no longer be friends. I don't want to be seen as guilty by association and lumped in the same category as you.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> These are all her friends to being with, so your assessment of them supporting your marriage is based solely upon what they do to you and in front of you. Don't think that she and they are sharing their true feelings with you.
> 
> Also there is a difference between find and dating someone once a legal separation has been established and moving on with your life, versus continuing to date someone that you left your current marriage to be with that person. You can;t compare the two as one is a relationship started in secrecy that ended the other relationship and the second is normal moving on and healing, also dating doesn't mean sex is involved either (but with cheating it generally is and is partly the reason for the marriage dissolving). Not a fair comparison.


I totally agree with both positions you make here. All I can say is that I feel very confident that they have been very supportive of us for the most part for two and a half years. All the evidence I have seen, both directly meant for me and what I have observed or discovered via other means, points in that direction, but at the same time I can't know that with 100% accuracy. And I also agree that there is a difference between starting a relationship with someone new after separated, vs. an affair relationship gone public and continued after separation. I personally feel that both are still wrong, even though I myself eventually started seeing other women during my separation, but like I mentioned before, I think there are "degrees of wrongness" involved.

Like as an example, on a scale from 100% wrong to "kinda sorta wrong", I might list these in the following order:
1. Extramarital Affair - 100% wrong.
2. Extramarital Affair that goes public/official after separation - Still really wrong, but less so.
3. Extramarital Affair that goes public/official after divorce - The way it came about is still really wrong, but now it can be considered "fair play".
4. "Affair" relationship that starts after separation - Still sort of wrong in my view, especially if the couple hasn't mutually agreed that seeing others is allowable.

From that, I think the "degree of wrongness" of friends supporting these kinds of relationships is very similar. It's 100% wrong to support an extramarital affair, but perhaps slightly less so if that relationship has since gone public during a separation, less so still if it's after a divorce. That sort of thing. See what I'm saying?

In any case, wrong is still wrong right? So maybe the "degree" to which something is wrong is meaningless?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I see your point, but if you will see I specifically stated "legal separation". As this makes it known total parties involved, that the intentions are to not remain in the marriage. There should therefor be no expectation of remaining celibate or not dating during said time period. Even in states that Adultery is still illegal, their laws state that once legal separation is obtained then dating is legal and not considered against the marriage contract laws (notice I said dating and not sleeping around). The purpose of a legal separation is to be considered as single in the eyes of the law. This means that an affair is not possible as the parties would both be considered single and able to act and carry on as single people are allowed to interact.

Also your percentage assessments are flawed. By logic standards, if something is 100% wrong adding to it would ini no way every make it ever possible to be less than 100%, as that base is already obtained and the level set. So anything that had an Extramarital Affair in it, would by default have already obtained 100% and couldn't be reduced (just making it public doesn't lessen the level of wrongness assigned to it). People may be more accepting of it, and I agree with that fact, but it doesn't make it any less wrong. 

It is akin to saying Speeding in a school zone is always 100 % wrong, but it is less wrong if you are speeding through a school zone, but maintaining that speed and are within the posted speed limits once you get outside of the school zone. Sorry still 100% wrong. Changing the level of wrongness based on something after the fact doesn't make it less wrong, and is nothing more than justification/validation/ and blame shifting by showing it is not so wrong now, so it must not have been as wrong then. Doesn't work that way logically.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Lol, forgive me for my rudimentary ranking system. I wasn't trying to be scientific about it. The "100%" really just mean "unequivocally" wrong. Like, wrong, period. Wrong in the highest degree. The next one could have been "medium wrong" or "Medium Well" or whatever, haha. The others were just lesser degrees of wrong. I know I'm being confusing here.

And I do get that wrong is wrong, I even acknowledged that at the bottom of my last post I think, but most societies recognize different degrees or severity of "wrong". Look at our justice system as one example. If you kill someone, the circumstances surrounding that are incredibly important as you could face a wide range of punishment, or even no punishment at all. (1st Degree murder, 2nd Degree, Manslaughter, pre-meditated murder, self defense, etc.) If you are speeding in your car, most police officers won't bother to pull you over if you're only going (example) 48 in a 45. Or if you get a ticket for going 52 in a 45, often times judges will go easy on you if you ask and maybe make you pay a lesser fee. If you go 90 in a 45 though, you'll be charged with a felony in most states instead of a misdemeanor and probably won't receive as much mercy. My point being, that most societies recognize different degree's or severity of "wrongness" and and treat those crimes or individuals accordingly.

In your school zone example, school zone infractions typically don't come with a lot of leniency, but if the school zone speed was 15 and the street's normal limit is 35, and you're caught going 35 in the zone, I could see a Judge considering your driving history and maybe granting some leniency because it could just mean that you didn't realize what time it was when you went through the zone or didn't see the sign because a big truck was in the way or who knows what. It's still wrong, it's still a violation of the law, but we're human beings and we can recognize that there are often special circumstances. Now if you were going 55 in that school zone, then the judge likely wouldn't give you a break at all, because even if you didn't realize the time or see the sign, you were still way over even the normal limit.

Of course, as human beings, we can also individually choose to see the world purely in terms of black and white with absolutely no gray area. That's a personal choice however, and probably one that most people don't live by I suspect.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Agreed on the levels of wrong. It is just it never occurs in society where you say something is of the highest degree and then something that includes that level and then some would be a lower degree or wrongness and that is the way your scale works. Number 1 occurs in the other two plus added so there is no way that number one could be worse. People knowing about it doesn't lessen the degree but instead makes it worse. That is why exposure is a big deal.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

cdbaker said:


> I have a question for the group.
> 
> My story is enormously long (most of it is still here on TAM, go look it up if you'd like) but the bottom line is that roughly five years ago my wife engaged in a couple extra-marital sexual relationships. My question regards the other people in her life during that time, her friends and family for example. If I were to try to group them according to how they responded to the knowledge of her indiscretions (meaning fully aware that she was cheating or willing to cheat, not simply deciding to divorce and open to meeting new people), I would categorize them as such:
> 
> ...


If your fWW never broke it off with everybody in categories 1 and 2 (or wants to reconnect with someone in one of those categories), or if she's had any reluctance about reconnecting with people in category 4, then I would question just how successful your _"reconciliation"_ really has been.

And if she has refused or is refusing to break it off with someone in one of the first two categories, then I would conclude that it has not been successful. A remorseful and repentant wayward wife does not insist on hanging out with people who supported her affair and threw her husband under the proverbial bus.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

You know, I'm wondering if you fully understand what happened with your wife. Here it is cut and dry. She cheated on you. Made a fool out of you. Her friends that knew and supported and encouraged her made a fool out of you and laughed behind you back and for some reason I don't think you have grasped that.

If you didn't know and had to ask about the people in category 1, 2 and 3, then you better be prepared for this to happen again.

Boils down to this. The people in the first three groups should be gone and not by you. It should be by her choice if she really wants to prove that she's remorseful. You can't pick and choose her friends and if any of the people she's friends with are in those three groups then IMO she's not worried about you going anywhere and sooner or later she's going to do it again so you better wise up and make sure that she's the one doing the heavy lifting.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

My problem is I have no idea which is which, my WW kept her affair hid pretty good but I'm pretty sure a few of her friends knew and I know one was for sure a # 2, she's banned for life, and one of them was a #1+++ (she let my WW use her apartment at lunch to bang the POSOM), her name isn't even allowed to be mentioned around me and in fact I consider contact with her the same as contact with the POSOM. 

The rest I just assume are #3s at best and they don't come around me very often, if at all because they know how I feel about the lot of them.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Highly toxic and should be disassociated
> 
> 
> 
> ...


agreed


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