# Faithful Guy, Pressured Woman



## Rememberist (May 26, 2015)

Looking for advice on separation -- ie, should I move out or not?

My wife (41) and I (43) have been married for 14 years and have three kids (13, 11, 9). We're a military family and have moved many times over the course of our marriage, along with my being gone for days, weeks, or months at a time. She is very capable and independent, but also has felt separated from her family and on her own many times. I've tried to see to her needs by encouraging her to travel, and when the opportunity arose, we've moved where possible to be close to her family. We have very different interests and personality (she's an extrovert, I'm an introvert) but we made it work and we used to have a passion for each other that made us the envy of our friends. Privately, after having kids, sex and intimacy became more and more infrequent, which has been a point of frustration for both of us.

Two years ago, she sat me down and told me that she loved me, but had no desire to ever have sex again, and my being there put pressure on her. She had begun looking forward to me having duty away from her. Every time I kissed her, or touched her, she felt strings were attached and I expected sex (which we were only having about once a month at that point). She said she doesn't blame me, and that I tried to engage her romantically with flowers, and gifts, candles, date nights, movies, etc., but there was always an undercurrent that I expected sex. She wondered if she might feel desire with someone else in the future, and that it was unfair to me to cut out that whole section of our marriage, stating that divorcing might be best. I talked with a chaplain who said I needed to give her space and time. On his advice, I took sex off the table so she would not feel pressured. I've continued to show her affection, tell her I love her, and make small romantic gestures, but without actions toward being intimate.

A month or two after that discussion, she was diagnosed with Stage IIB breast cancer on her right side. She has had a number of body issues over the years. She was heavier when we met, and had gastric bypass surgery to lose weight about 7 years ago. She also had to have a hysterectomy after our third child, and went into early medical menopause. She took estrogen and other drugs to deal with that, and to address her loss of libido after having kids. That may have led to her breast cancer, for which she had a double mastectomy, chemo, radiation, and reconstruction (ongoing). Her mom moved in to assist me as caregiver, but now that she's mostly recovered, her mom is on the way out again.

While this went on, neither of us mentioned the issue of separation, and I hoped my support and patience would re-open her heart, but she took me aside again this week and told me nothing had changed. It's now been almost two years since we last had sex. Again, she stressed it was not me, and that I'd done all and more that anyone could ask. She loves me, but wants to separate after the kids finish school for the year, with me probably moving out and putting the house up for sale. There is no infidelity, emotional or physical abuse, and we seem to get along well. She just says that she has no passion for anything, and that even though I've taken the pressure off her to have sex, my presence still makes her feel pressured. She's apparently been saving money for a lawyer this whole time. 

I love her. I only want her, but this whole thing just confuses the hell out of me. And I don't want to destroy or lose the life we've made for ourselves, not to mention the affect divorce would have on our kids, our finances, and everything else. I'm talking to the chaplains again and she's agreed to see one. This new chaplain told me that feelings follow action, so he says we should try to be intimate so she can rediscover that part of our lives together, but her mind seems made up. Is this a lost cause? What else can I do to win her back? Is this just a mid-life crisis I should ride out? Should I resist her desire to have me move out?

Sincerely, 
The Rememberist


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Sad story.

I would first try counseling. But not your generic mamby-pamby marriage counselor, but a PhD super shrink. This is heavy duty stuff and the breast cancer adds a serious twist. 

If counseling isn't an option for her, I think it best to separate in accordance with her wishes. Stay in close touch, dedicate yourself to parenting well... You can't force yourself on her to stay.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Sorry, for the situation that brought you here. My wife had BC at forty, then a hysterectomy. It puts a lot of stress on a woman's life and relationship, let alone libido and intimacy. Did she avail herself of counseling? 

You do realize what you've been doing doesn't work. That's because it's not what she wants in a relationship. Don't you think it's past time for a change in you? Remember you can't change her, you can only change you.

How about you? Has it all been about her? 
Do you think about what you want or deserve in a relationship, whether it's with her or anyone else? 
Have you had any counseling? I don't mean the Chaplain. 

Do yourself a favor and read the sticky thread at the top of this men's forum. Get a different view... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-better-man-better-partner.html


PS, Please stick to one thread, it's easier for the members to follow you and reply to your questions.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

There's really no answer to this, as it could be any number of things as far as she's concerned. Only she actually knows what it is, and even then, she may not.

She could be asexual. She may not be attracted to you sexually. She may be clinically depressed. She may have guilt or shame that has caused walls to be built around sex. She may be sexually repressed. There may be someone else. And on, and on, and on.

The bottom line is that if you don't want to give up without a fight, you need to, as said above, make an appointment with somebody who specializes in this area - not some counsellor you pick out of the phonebook. Like a bonafide, honest-to-god Phd-owning super-shrink.

Look, I'm not a "sky is falling" type of guy, but my previous marriage followed a similar script as yours (minus the breast cancer. My ex wife was anorexic/bulemic, though, so there were health issues). I got the "I don't want sex any more" thing, too, as well as the "feeling pressured" (even though there wasn't any pressure on my part). Most other aspects of our marriage were good, or better, and she did love me. Just not in the way she should have.

I'm not at all saying this is the case with you, but it's a possibility. My ex wife did have somebody else, who she married in short order, I might add, but she did spend the bulk of the last couple years of our marriage feeling sorry for herself, blaming this and that on her issues, and generally feeling bad. But then again, she was also living a bit of a double life at that point and struggling with how to extricate herself from our marriage which she no longer wanted to be in. She knew I loved her, and she did love me, but not the "right" way, so she wasn't able to just pick up and leave. Until she couldn't take it any more, and did.

It may be as simple as this, to be honest. Your wife may love and respect you and wants to avoid hurting you at all costs. You also have children, which complicates things. My ex wife explained it to me once in this way: she felt like she was waking up every morning next to her best friend, not her husband. Eventually this turned into "brother", instead of "friend", and this is when she lost any and all attraction to me. She kept up appearances for far too long, and continued to do things like have sex with me, but it repulsed her, which in turn made her feel awful about herself. And then she couldn't take it any more and we ended in a fiery blaze of confusion and anger and hatred.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

That's a raw deal, man. Like Alex said it could be anything.

My take is that you have two options:

1. "Wife, I want to stay married to you but have sex/romance with other women. This would take the pressure off both of us, and we'd get to stay in each other's life and raise our kids together."

2. "Wife, I respect the fact that you don't want to be around me and don't want to have sex with me. Let's split as amicably, cleanly, and quickly as we can for the sake of our kids and so I can move on to find someone that wants to share my life with me."

I really don't see a third option since she's so apathetic.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

marduk said:


> That's a raw deal, man. Like Alex said it could be anything.
> 
> My take is that you have two options:
> 
> ...


Well, option #1 isn't really an option, especially if this is anything like my first marriage, and even if it's something else entirely (asexuality, et al) it's generally not something most spouses would go for. It's funny, right? One partner could theoretically live without sex the rest of their lives and/or doesn't give a damn about it at all, yet good luck getting permission to go outside the marriage.

Option 2 is totally legit and likely the smartest one, anyway.

However, there is an option 3, and that's a high level of therapy for both partners, with an emphasis on her.

Even just talking about possible therapy may make OP's wife realize she has nowhere to go. It took me a good two years to broach that subject with my ex wife, to the point where I had actually made an appointment for the both of us. And that's when she came clean, as it were, about it not being something that's fixable.

So if (IF) this is a situation like I had with my ex wife, something will make her crack at some point, where she'll realize she has to spill the beans on the hows and whats and the whys.

If it's anything else (depression, asexuality, simple non sexual attraction to OP) then seeing somebody could make a huge difference and possibly even get things back on track.

I'm biased, but I'm usually not in the camp that believes somebody who loves, and who has married, somebody else can't bring themselves to have sex with them. Especially when sex was present beforehand. It's usually an indicator of no attraction. But that's just my opinion, and as both wives have told me - I'm often wrong! :laugh:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Why is her need to avoid Intimacy more important than your need for it?

ETA: While the culture of the military is rife with infidelity, being caught committing it can actually get one in major hot water. So for those advocating for an open marriage, that's not really an option if he wants to maintain his career.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Here's the thing.

And it's a really ****ty thing.

If I could no longer have any kind of sex with my wife -- let's say I was paralyzed from the neck down. Because I love my wife I'd probably offer to let her have sex on the side even though I would hate it. But I'd rather have her in my life, and because I love her I wouldn't try to deny her a lifetime of sex just to be with me.

That's love, man. Her willingness (even if it's biologically induced willingness) to live a life of celibacy doesn't mean a sexual prison sentence for you. For me, if it were reversed, I'd ask my wife for that. And if she said no, I'd probably feel that she didn't actually love me, she just wanted to have me around for convenience or comfort.

Far - didn't know that. Thanks for that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

IMHO women do not know what they really want, and actually need a man to show them what it is that is best of them. Unfortunately the fact that you backed down and did not stand up for yourself sexually the past few years probably makes her feel unprotected. 

Sometimes when women say they do not want sex because they want to see their man be strong emotionally fight for the relationship to reconnect. In your case, you took another man's advice (your wife is not married to the chaplain) and likely quoted this other man's advice to your wife instead of fighting to find the true answers to help solve your problems from within. 

It is never too late, but you need to be prepared to stand up for yourself, get knocked down, stand back up, get knocked down, and keep standing back up with patience until you have a breakthrough and find out what is really going on. 

Best wishes,
Badsanta


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## Rememberist (May 26, 2015)

badsanta said:


> IMHO women do not know what they really want, and actually need a man to show them what it is that is best of them. Unfortunately the fact that you backed down and did not stand up for yourself sexually the past few years probably makes her feel unprotected.
> 
> Sometimes when women say they do not want sex because they want to see their man be strong emotionally fight for the relationship to reconnect. In your case, you took another man's advice (your wife is not married to the chaplain) and likely quoted this other man's advice to your wife instead of fighting to find the true answers to help solve your problems from within.
> 
> ...


Badsanta, I appreciate the advice, but I don't believe it pertains. My wife should have no doubt that I want her and will protect her, but it sounds like you're advocating forcing myself on her or not taking "no" for an answer. I'm not gonna do that. She's not playing hard-to-get. Hopefully, I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but this is not some alpha vs beta vs gamma dominance male issue where I'm comfortable crossing the line into marital rape. We took vows to have and to hold. I'm not looking for an excuse to "stand up for myself sexually" and either force myself on her or use it as carte blanch to cheat.

If I'm misreading what you're advising, my apologies.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It is indeed a dominance thing, but not in the way you indicated to BS. You are accepting the unacceptable from her without putting your foot down. 

As long as you continue to meet her needs while accepting her not meeting yours, you will continue to get more of the same. 

Here is the 2x4. Effectively what you are asking for is a silver bullet that will make her change, while you want to continue to do the same things that have led to this situation to begin with. Do you see a problem?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rememberist said:


> Badsanta, I appreciate the advice, but I don't believe it pertains. My wife should have no doubt that I want her and will protect her, but it sounds like you're advocating forcing myself on her or not taking "no" for an answer. I'm not gonna do that. She's not playing hard-to-get. Hopefully, I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but this is not some alpha vs beta vs gamma dominance male issue where I'm comfortable crossing the line into marital rape. We took vows to have and to hold. I'm not looking for an excuse to "stand up for myself sexually" and either force myself on her or use it as carte blanch to cheat.
> 
> If I'm misreading what you're advising, my apologies.


I do not mean for you to force yourself onto her for sex, but to forcefully find out and address "whatever it is" that is causing her to not want to be intimate with you. Some examples might be finding out that there has been infidelity and she has broken her ability to maintain trust. Or another example might be that something has her traumatized and she is not allowing you to address it as a couple and instead she is keeping it to herself. Instead of finding out "what" is causing the problem, you backed off and likely left her too vulnerable. 

You will not know the answer unless you fight for it!


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## Rememberist (May 26, 2015)

Well, believe me, I haven't been sanguine about our problems. We've had the blow-ups where I demanded to know what it was that kept her cold to me even though she said she loved me, why she dropped off interest. I've demanded to know if there was someone else. So she's either lying to me, or she doesn't even know herself. I honestly think there's a lot of mid-life **** tied up into this, as well as her hormonal/menopausal issues, and the whole changes wrought on her by the cancer and hysterectomy and facing her own mortality. I think she's pretty damned confused about what she wants, and is looking at the big reset button as the easiest way to fix things. Maybe it's too late. Maybe I'm naive. But I just don't see her cheating, and I have no idea how to force an answer out of her, especially if she doesn't know herself. If I pull an ultimatum and leave or ask her to go, I'm justifying this new course she has in her head, and perhaps endangering my eventual custody. 

I dunno what to do.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Rememberist, you haven't answered the questions concerning counseling. Has it been explored?


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## Rememberist (May 26, 2015)

anchorwatch said:


> Rememberist, you haven't answered the questions concerning counseling. Has it been explored?


We're both seeing the same chaplain individually (just started since this had all been backburnered while she dealt with the mastectomy, cancer treatments, & reconstruction) . At some point, we'll try couples counseling with him or someone else. He's pretty good: a Protestant chaplain who went through a divorce he now regrets, so he's kind of on my side (I hope).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd approach this differently. This is the 'all about you theme'. 

However we arrived at this point, you clearly no longer want to be married to me. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to accept that. I'd prefer to do a collaborative divorce as it's cheaper and hopefully friendlier. 

When would you like to start the process?

It's ok to fight for your marriage up to a point. Past that point, you're simply trying to achieve an outcome that you want at the expense of someone you supposedly love. 






Rememberist said:


> We're both seeing the same chaplain individually (just started since this had all been backburnered while she dealt with the mastectomy, cancer treatments, & reconstruction) . At some point, we'll try couples counseling with him or someone else. He's pretty good: a Protestant chaplain who went through a divorce he now regrets, so he's kind of on my side (I hope).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rememberist, 

Let me give you an example of how to handle a woman forcefully, but not force yourself upon her...

Today (yes this happened today) my wife told me she was in no mood to be intimate and that she would rather sit on the couch and talk instead of my idea that we get naked and cuddle. She started whining about me wanting too much and that I need to respect her when she is not in the mood. Then I physically tossed her on the bed, got her naked, snuggled up to her, started rubbing her back, and then asked "if you want, I'll put your cloths back on and we can go to the couch?" She then admitted my idea was much better! 

OR I could have withdrawn and gone to complain to my priest, came back home, and said to my wife that the priest feels that being more intimate and cuddling would help us connect better.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Rememberist,
> 
> Let me give you an example of how to handle a woman forcefully, but not force yourself upon her...
> 
> Today (yes this happened today) my wife told me she was in no mood to be intimate and that she would rather sit on the couch and talk instead of my idea that we get naked and cuddle. She started whining about me wanting too much and that I need to respect her when she is not in the mood. Then I physically tossed her on the bed, got her naked, snuggled up to her, started rubbing her back, and then asked "if you want, I'll put your cloths back on and we can go to the couch?" She then admitted my idea was much better!


That is literally forcing yourself on her. Holy sh*t dude.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

BadS,

In an overall healthy marriage you can do a lot of stuff that's a total no go in a marriage that has crashed. 

And no offense intended but you left a giant blank space in your narrative - which was the part where you undressed her. 

This type advice, without a mor specific narrative is a bit - reckless. 

And a wife saying - not right now - is in a far different place than a wife who has said and meant: I never want to do that with you again. 








badsanta said:


> Rememberist,
> 
> Let me give you an example of how to handle a woman forcefully, but not force yourself upon her...
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bat,

Being playfully, physically aggressive is a healthy sexual dynamic that is often present in couples who have a high level of mutual trust. 

She trusts him to stop if she really wants him too. And notice - before moving his hands from her back - elsewhere - he asked for confirmation that they were now in synch. 




batsociety said:


> That is literally forcing yourself on her. Holy sh*t dude.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Bat,
> 
> Being playfully, physically aggressive is a healthy sexual dynamic that is often present in couples who have a high level of mutual trust.
> 
> She trusts him to stop if she really wants him too. And notice - before moving his hands from her back - elsewhere - he asked for confirmation that they were now in synch.


I'm fully aware of that and I recognize that I know nothing about badsanta's relationship with his wife.

But I also know that a lot of survivors of domestic violence sometimes go along with what their partner wants to create the illusion of consent/control and deny/minimize what is happening to them as a defense mechanism. And that for most people, if their partner "physically tossed her on the bed, got her naked" after they had told them to respect their boundaries because they were not in the mood, it would not be taken anywhere near as lightly. I mean, I don't know about other people here, but if my husband tried that it would scare the hell out of me. It's kinda irresponsible to suggest that kind of behavior _wouldn't_ be "forcing yourself upon her" when it definitely is on paper and in like, every other circumstance.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Yes, my last post leaves out a bit of narrative...

We do tend to be very playful with each other. I did not force her, as she did not resist any what so ever. What I was getting at, is that women don't always know what they want. If you do something in a loving way, even though it contradicts what may be said verbally you find yourself in sort of a romantic comedy so to speak. If you back down when love needs to be strong/playful, things can quickly spiral into a tragic drama...

Badsanta

PS: Can't tell you how many times we have had bad fights to where I would want to normally just walk away for a moment, but you pick yourself up and be playfully bold! Kinda like when you are a kid and you want to stay angry at something but if you hold out that extra moment, an uncontrolled smile and a laugh comes to the surface and often has the power to tear through tons of crap and reset everything back to normal.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

BatS,

I believe we agree that, as given this was reckless advice. 

I admit to not understanding the rest of your comments. This isn't a thread about domestic violence. I've never read anything by Bad Santa that leads me to think he has ever engaged in domestic violence. 

I say this next bit with all sincerity. If you've been on the receiving end of male violence we likely won't ever see eye to eye on this stuff. 

I'm certain that M2 isn't afraid of or intimidated by me. Not physically, not emotionally and not financially.. Never has been. Don't think she's ever been afraid of anybody. 

For just a moment I'll reverse the field. M2 has a thing about biting. Loves it. Always has. I let her bite me. Because 
I totally trust her not to break the skin. It's that simple. 

It would be sad if M2 didn't trust me enough to wrestle with me. 




batsociety said:


> I'm fully aware of that and I recognize that I know nothing about badsanta's relationship with his wife.
> 
> But I also know that a lot of survivors of domestic violence sometimes go along with what their partner wants to create the illusion of consent/control and deny/minimize what is happening to them as a defense mechanism. And that for most people, if their partner "physically tossed her on the bed, got her naked" after they had told them to respect their boundaries because they were not in the mood, it would not be taken anywhere near as lightly. I mean, I don't know about other people here, but if my husband tried that it would scare the hell out of me. It's kinda irresponsible to suggest that kind of behavior _wouldn't_ be "forcing yourself upon her" when it definitely is on paper and in like, every other circumstance.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Santa,

The statement: women don't always know what they want
Is a half truth 

The full truth is that *people* don't always know what they want....

There have been plenty of times where M2 does this thing - and I end up WANTING to do what she wants - and by then I am often full body laughing. 

*IME it is very hard to resist a playful and determined partner. *





badsanta said:


> Yes, my last post leaves out a bit of narrative...
> 
> We do tend to be very playful with each other. I did not force her, as she did not resist any what so ever. What I was getting at, is that women don't always know what they want. If you do something in a loving way, even though it contradicts what may be said verbally you find yourself in sort of a romantic comedy so to speak. If you back down when love needs to be strong/playful, things can quickly spiral into a tragic drama...
> 
> ...


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## Rememberist (May 26, 2015)

Well, an update. I'm the sailor with a breast cancer stricken wife who said she felt we had grown apart and wanted to maybe separate.

We both saw the same chaplain separately and things were getting better. No intimacy, but more affection and upbeat friendliness. I went on a couple of work trips alone, and I had no problem with her taking a couple of trips home for breast cancer walks and to be at her friend's daughter's graduation. 

This last week we celebrated our 15 year wedding anniversary with a harbor wine cruise. Had a lot of fun, slow danced, etc. It looked like things were finally turning around. But she had too much to drink and passed out at home, so no anniversary/make-up nookie (our first in two years). The next day, we're alone at home, content, and I say how about we finish what we were starting yesterday. 

Nope. Her feelings have not changed. In fact, she said counseling was not helping, and she did not see a need in couples counseling. She wanted to move forward with a separation and divorce. But still she loved me, it was unfair for neither of us to have a life of no intimacy, but she no longer felt that way. She said we had grown apart. I told her I haven't, she shut down on me. I try to engage her in companionship, romance, and intimacy regularly.

My plan was to separate, and let her learn that life is better together. I'd be sweet and supportive through the whole thing until it was over or she woke up.

Then someone anonymous messages me. They had seen all our happy pics from the anniversary and they couldn't stand her continuing to lie to me. This person who must know her from back home said she was having an affair with a lover in her home state and that they could no longer stand the disgusting way she was keeping me in the dark. Said she was planning to divorce me no matter what.

I confront the wife. She denies it, but she's very cagey. I pressure and question and probe. Finally she admits she has "reconnected" with the guy she was with before me, the guy that dumped her and broke her heart the year before we met. She had always had lingering feelings for him, could not explain why she was withdrawing from me, and the cancer put it all in perspective for her. She "emotionally reconnected" with him, but insisted they had not kissed or done anything during her trips home.

Yet, someone thought their "reconnection" was blatant enough to call it an affair and send me an anonymous message.

I'm done. I'm not going to fight her or fight for her. She's thrown away our lives. I tell my best friend and family, and they insist they always saw this flighty/mean streak, but never said anything because I was marrying the girl I loved. Thanks for that.

My brother says that she was a big gal when we met, then my insurance paid for her gastric bypass, breast cancer treatments, and breast reconstruction, she's now better looking than she's ever been. Rather than share that bounty with the guy who supported her through 5 years of waning action and two years of no sex, she turned to the one who got away. He says she's a spoiled child and it's not my fault, but I blame myself anyway.

Why wasn't I good enough for her? Do I hide her burgeoning infidelity from my kids? Do I go the mutual amicable divorce route or the expensive, vindictive one?

- Rememberist


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

All for the best man. It wasn't that you weren't good enough for her, it's that you didn't fit. Hell, it could have been that she felt like she didn't deserve you, who the hell knows? She probably doesn't even understand it.

And you have to realize that she just threw everything in her life away chasing a dream... that didn't work out. It explains why she withdrew attraction... it explains everything.

You're a good guy who waited a long time. You need to realize that you need to stop throwing time away on this person you thought was your wife who used you for support while having sex with some other guy. And don't kid a kidder, she was having sex with him.

You now exist in an ocean of better women with integrity. Go and find one.

Dump this one and run, man. I know that sucks to hear... but it's what you have to do. Don't look back, even for a second.

And go public with this whole deal once you get her to sign the papers. Use the threat of which to ensure you get a fair settlement.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I can't imagine a woman could be any clearer to a man that she wants to leave him. And "I don;t love you and want to leave you" doesn't count. They rarely say that. It's usually, "It's not you, it's me". Sound familiar.

Save yourself sooner than later. It will NOT get better. I have rarely been more sure of anything in my life.

It's over, man. 180 time. Sorry.


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