# Communication with my wife is driving me bonkers



## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

I just googled the differences between men and women communicating styles. 

Here is the most relevant part for this discussion. 

Men are direct. Women drop hints. 

What my wife is doing is taking what I say and adding a bunch of stuff that I did not say because she thinks I am hinting like she does. 

No amount of explaining that I say exactly what I mean and there is no more to it so stop adding all that bull$hit is penetrating her fortress of suspicion. :scratchhead:

For example, I say ...

"I am going to make dinner" translates to, "I am disappointed she did not make dinner" 

"I think it is lovely that you are going to such an admirable extent organizing the kids dance" translates to "she is spending too much time working on the dance" 

"Would it be helpful if I knocked out the laundry today?" translates to "she is a horrible wife" 

"You look amazing today" translates to "I think she is a piece of meat"

"I did not realize you are working tomorrow" translates to "I need her to do something for me"

WTF? :lol:

I noticed recently that we are going round and round with me saying EXACTLY what I mean and her taking that to some other meaning adding all kinds of nonsense to it. GRRRRRRRR!

We are also working on dumping mind reading and covert contracts in favor of asking for and saying what we want or expect. 

Guess who is having issues with that?

Uh huh.


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

It could be worse. She could translate "I want a blow-job" into "I am gay"


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Methuselah said:


> It could be worse. She could translate "I want a blow-job" into "I am gay"


:lol: Good point


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I have one word to say;
'Women'


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

thread the needle said:


> We are also working on dumping mind reading and covert contracts in favor of asking for and saying what we want or expect.


Same here, though I admit that I am or at least was guilty of trying to read between the lines, too, and usually being kind of uncharitable about what I thought she meant.

Still working on it, but it's much better now.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

On a serious note, I agree with the Op entirely.

A couple of months ago I asked my wife to make a sour cream/chive dip - she makes a fantastic one...divine.

Barbecue, baked potatoes...out comes the dip...yuk. Shop bought.

All I said was 'yours is so much better than this'. And that was exactly what I meant.
She took it as an insult, that I was accusing her of being lazy etc.
Actually, I was complimenting her but still got ma butt chewed.

Also, if a man is horny he will tell his partner directly...'Hey honey' - as he comes up behind her, erection clearly visible - 'I'm feeling really horny...'

Wife to husband 'I'm going upstairs to bed, join me if you like'. Thats her idea of saying 'I'm horny, come and take me now. I WANT you'.

But thats not what we hear....we hear what she actually said!

Women!!!!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Hahaha! Same here.

I have had to stop everything, several times, to get her to ask me to do what she is hinting that she would like me to do, or she is saying something indirectly and it causes confusion.

If she really wants me to do something, instead of asking me, she will remark "You could do x,y or z if you want to" or some strange variation.

It is like asking me to do something would be insulting so she has to approach the issue from the blindside, or sneak up on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Omg this brings me back to my last relationship. WTF everything was taken wrong...EXhausitng

So glad my GF is not like this. She does claim that she still spins things in her head but she improved her communication style in relationships by doing two simple things I will share and maybe you can pass along to your wife

1) if your going to make a wild assumption about something he says assume he means it it a positive way not a negative one. 
2) take a second, and a breath, before responding. What was actually said ? Guys are literal so likely not the hidden meaning that I was thinking in my head.

She should write a book.

Course if you bring this up to your wife good luck lol


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

I am so thankful my SO doesn't play "hint-eeze" with me. Hearing "flip me over and take me hard" is music to my ears!


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Is this the good and young looking woman you posted a picture of some time ago?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
I thought you were talking about my wife. 

I think all or most women are like this. 
If you find a solution, please let us know. I think it is a defect in the female brain design.

My wife is beautiful and slim/trim in her late 30s after 2 kids. Sometimes I sneak up from the back and run my hands on her awesome hips because i think it's just so sexy... the way it curves up. Sometimes her response is that she is a mere "object" for me.

At least I am not the only one who thinks that many women have comprehension issues.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Is this the good and young looking woman you posted a picture of some time ago?
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
> I thought you were talking about my wife.
> ...


I can see why you are having problems with your wife. You hate women.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I can see why you are having problems with your wife. You hate women.


Another fine example :lol:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I actually speak very directly. Luckily for me I am not "defective".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nirvana,
The post below is a violation of the rules and spirit of TAM. 

Play nice, or play elsewhere. 




nirvana said:


> Is this the good and young looking woman you posted a picture of some time ago?
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
> I thought you were talking about my wife.
> ...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually speak very directly. Luckily for me I am not "defective".


You totally misread his post. Maybe you are referring to another post?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Nirvana,
> The post below is a violation of the rules and spirit of TAM.
> 
> Play nice, or play elsewhere.


Ok. What did I miss?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

GTdad said:


> I was guilty of trying to read between the lines, too, and *usually being kind of uncharitable about what I thought she meant*





Wolf1974 said:


> she improved her communication style in relationships by doing two simple things
> 
> 1) if your going to make a wild assumption about something he says *assume he means it it a positive way *not a negative one


I like the admission and the advice. Thank you both. 

What is interesting is I don't try to translate her and should and she tries to translate me and should not. 

What a friggen waste of energy. Just say what the hell you mean and take each other at their word for crissakes. No translation required.

Grrrrrr!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

OP if it were me, I would try some limit setting. She sounds terribly insecure which you cannot do anything about. But you don't have to accept her interpretation of your words.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Oh. Saying there is a defect. I don't think he meant it in as harsh a manner as it is being taken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually speak very directly. Luckily for me I am not "defective".


I'm just foolin' with ya. Hence the laugher guy. No offense intended and thank you for your suggestion.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm female. I don't communicate in this manner at all.

I say exactly what I mean and I don't translate all things my husband says with a negative connotation....in fact, quite the opposite, I know he'd never try to be insensitive underhandedly.

I do agree, however, that there are too many of my gender that argue like this because women are creatures of socialization and rarely challenge those gender limitations.

My advice is to explain to her that you need clarity....that you can't read her mind and are tired of her arguing everything in a vague, underhanded way. I think if you stop her each time and explain your position and that you had no agenda for what you said...you guys can practice working on a clearer method for communication. Changing habits takes a lot of practice...it doesn't happen overnight.

But again, not all women are like this but this is the woman YOU chose so you have to work on it with her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SomebodyS,

Before concluding that she's insecure 'in general' we might ask a question.

Thread,
Does your wife engage in this activity of assuming a negative or critical subtext with other people? 

If she does it with everyone, than it is indeed about her. And maybe IC would help her. 

If however, she mainly limits this behavior to you, than it sounds like a trust issue. And should be addressed accordingly. 

I'd lay 50-50 odds that your wife is feeling anxious. You've rapidly switched gears from sort of neglecting her to implementing a full court press improving intimacy. 

That's likely a shock to her system. I think she's pushing you a way a little. 

Now this next bit, I believe deep down at a core level. 

If you have to choose between under doing and over doing intimacy. Far better to under do it a little. Because overdone - intimacy feels like smothering.....




NobodySpecial said:


> OP if it were me, I would try some limit setting. She sounds terribly insecure which you cannot do anything about. But you don't have to accept her interpretation of your words.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

The other day we agreed to go to the flea market. I start driving the scenic route instead of the expressway.

She says "Where are you going?" right after we agreed to go to the flea market and I turned the truck around to head that way

I say "I am taking the scenic route"

She says "The flea market closes at 4 on Sundays"

That means "she doesn't want to take the scenic route. She wants to take the expressway"

LOL


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thread the needle said:


> I'm just foolin' with ya. Hence the laugher guy. No offense intended and thank you for your suggestion.


I am not offended by you! All is well.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> SomebodyS,
> 
> Before concluding that she's insecure 'in general' we might ask a question.
> 
> ...


I agree with this.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Ok. What did I miss?


Nothing. Another example of a men's thread hijacked by a feminist who is "outraged" at a fundamental human truth: that men and women communicate differently, and this is likely bred into the human species because, as traditionally the more submissive/weaker of the two sexes, women have had to adapt their communication techniques to be more 'suggestive/hint-ive' rather than direct, which is often misinterpreted as combative.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I actually stopped being direct with my ex-husband. Early on it became clear that while he said he wanted me to be direct, when I was, it didn't go well. Anything direct was viewed as me being combative, he felt it as an attack. He was reading negativity and ill-intent where there was none. So I gradually stopped being direct in favor of hints and other indirect - read, in his mind, more feminine - speech. 

The advantage for him in this of course, is that was much easier to ignore indirect communication, while still appearing to be the good guy. He could claim not to have understood - because I wasn't being direct. The passive-aggressive was strong with that one. 

Of course, I have not so far found being direct to be all that welcome in the dating world either. There are plenty of men around who expect at least a moderate level of clairvoyance from their partners, refuse to communicate, and are nearly pathologically conflict-avoidant. Playing "read my mind" isn't a gender-specific game.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Thread,
> Does your wife engage in this activity of assuming a negative or critical subtext with other people?


I have not noticed. I need to examine that. I also don't want to give the impression it is always negative either because those were the first examples that popped into my head. 

I just posted another example above that isn't negative. Here is another. 

I say "does the supermarket sell clams this time of year?" 

She says she isn't sure. Three hours later, she comes back with clams. 

I was asking because I saw the neighbor had clams on his grill and I was curious if he got them from the supermarket where they are fairly expensive or the place he and I went to get them at a specialty place so I could tag along next time or offer to take turns with my fellow clam lover. LOL

I said "oh ok thank you"

She says "What? I thought you wanted clams"

LOL She is very sweet and thoughtful like that while she is adding and assuming much IMO because if I wanted them, I would be clear about it unlike a hint.

This isn't making my world end, it's just that much gets added in and it has me wondering what is added in that I do not know about. Since we have had issues in the past where I didn't pay attention and now I am, I am trying to learn here what the hell that is about and if there is a more accurate way to communicate



MEM11363 said:


> If you have to choose between under doing and over doing intimacy. Far better to under do it a little. Because overdone - intimacy feels like smothering.....


Understood

-------------------------

Another communication issue we are working on with my daughter is...

I have noticed though that my wife never acknowledges my daughter's feelings as legitimate when she is upset. My wife launches right into all that my daughter failed to consider and why she should not have those feelings. My daughter states her mom always claims my daughter is wrong and my wife is right. It never goes well for the past several years because my daughter does not feel heard.

I always acknowledge my daughter's feelings, and tell her I understand what she is saying. Then we have a discussion including lots of give and take. Works well. 

Hmm. I have to see where that fits and how the genders effect it. I have given it no thought so far but I do interrupt the pattern when I am pat of the discussion so my daughter can speak and get some comforting. My wife seems hell bent on just telling her where she is wrong. I get there too but in way that does not foster forceful resistance from my daughter so she doesn't miss the lesson trying to win at all cost.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

thread the needle said:


> I have not noticed. I need to examine that. I also don't want to give the impression it is always negative either because those were the first examples that popped into my head.
> 
> I just posted another example above that isn't negative. Here is another.
> 
> ...


In the above example, she could have asked if you wanted her to pick up some clams when she went to the store. At the same time, _you_ could have stated upfront that you were just wondering if they were available, and if so would it be cheaper to get them from the supermarket or a specialty place. Your wife assumed it was a request for clams. You assumed she would know you were just curious. Both of you are attributing your own communication style to the other. The lack of clarity isn't entirely on her. 

For your part, you can improve communication by verbally expressing a more complete segment of your thought process. You can also talk to your wife about both of you asking for clarification if you're unsure or think the other is being vague. It's not that one of you is right and the other wrong, or that one of you needs to change. It's that _together_ you need to work out a method of communication that feels safe and works well for both of you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thread,

Just a few thoughts for you to consider. 

Recently you asked your wife to be more subtle when she wants to have sex. I see that as a completely normal and healthy request. Many folks find the direct statement: let's have sex - to be rather unsexy. 

That said, I'm confused. I am now getting the impression you want a totally direct and unambiguous communication style in all things non sexual. 

That will not work. Will not work. Will fail. 

A good sex life is a natural extension of the rest of the relationship. 

So gradually get good at this subtext thing - or accept that you will be frustrated. 

As for specific examples. Wife saying: flea market closes at 4
Was her nicely suggesting you take the highway. She was making a request in a rational manner. I'm not sure what it was you think is odd or off about what she did. 

Her getting you clams - was purely an act of kindness on her part. 

If you look askance on that act of kindness because she could have gotten them cheaper elsewhere - than I believe you need to read my favorite short story: The gift of the magi

One last observation. Having read a number of your threads, they have a tone that reminds me of a certain 'mindset'

In a way, you seem to view your marriage as a type of puzzle that can be optimized. 

The biggest issue with that is your W is likely to sometimes feel that you have confused fixing the marriage with fixing her. 

And that is not a good feeling. And it won't work. 






thread the needle said:


> I have not noticed. I need to examine that. I also don't want to give the impression it is always negative either because those were the first examples that popped into my head.
> 
> I just posted another example above that isn't negative. Here is another.
> 
> ...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> In a way, you seem to view your marriage as a type of puzzle that can be optimized.
> 
> The biggest issue with that is your W is likely to sometimes feel that you have confused fixing the marriage with fixing her.
> 
> And that is not a good feeling. And it won't work.


:iagree:

The urge to optimize performance is a big "Yay!" in engineering. _Really_ not so much in relationships.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Recently you asked your wife to be more subtle when she wants to have sex. I see that as a completely normal and healthy request. Many folks find the direct statement: let's have sex - to be rather unsexy


Agreed 



MEM11363 said:


> That said, I'm confused. I am now getting the impression you want a totally direct and unambiguous communication style in all things non sexual.


To clarify 

1. She adds to what I am saying instead of taking what I say literally as if I am hinting which I do not believe I ever do and have stated that to her when she "adds" things that take what I say off the rails a bit

2. She hints and I try to translate except for the intimacy requests. I am not looking to change her other than for her to understand what is going on at times with my not getting a hint lobbed at me because of common differences in the styles of communication

3. She is very direct in the bedroom to avoid being hurt with my missing her seductive moves that I had missed in the past. For example, Her "I am headed up to bed, are you coming?" Me "Duh no I have some work to finish" then I worked until three in the morning like a dumb a$$ duh duh duh. Grrr



MEM11363 said:


> That will not work. Will not work. Will fail. A good sex life is a natural extension of the rest of the relationship


Agreed. We will have to sort it out together as we move along. I am looking for her to stop adding to my statements, continue being her while I tune in my radar and be more seductive in the intimacy area but I can deal with the current set up which has the most vital ingredients without changing. 



MEM11363 said:


> So gradually get good at this subtext thing - or accept that you will be frustrated.


That is the goal I guess. Paying attention is new and when I do, holy smokes the WTF meter goes berserk. :rofl:



MEM11363 said:


> As for specific examples. Wife saying: flea market closes at 4
> Was her nicely suggesting you take the highway. She was making a request in a rational manner. I'm not sure what it was you think is odd or off about what she did.
> 
> Her getting you clams - was purely an act of kindness on her part.
> ...


No harm. It's just different than me and my male friends would say it. "Hey moron. Hit the highway. It's faster" and "Are you saying you want some clams fatso? LOL. 

I'm not suggesting that would be helpful for my wife or I to talk like that to each other. I'm foolin' to make some fun.



MEM11363 said:


> One last observation. Having read a number of your threads, they have a tone that reminds me of a certain 'mindset'
> 
> In a way, you seem to view your marriage as a type of puzzle that can be optimized.
> 
> ...


Agreed and thank you for the insights. Very helpful. :smthumbup:


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually speak very directly. Luckily for me I am not "defective".


hehe just kidding of course. 
Pushing some buttons


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK, just a suggestion here...

If women like to over analyze everything and create alternate meanings as if you were dropping hints, we should be smart enough at this game to outsmart them and reverse this in our favor. For example:

Complain about the way your wife dresses, saying that she is going to draw too much attention to herself, but do not explain why.

Complain that none of your other friends understand you like she does and it gets you very frustrated. 

Buy some shoes saying that you think they match her favorite pants and ask her if she likes them....

I could go on...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thread,

Most great marriages incorporate some level of 'telepathy-lite'. 

And that type communication is predicated on a level of spousal fluency that you currently lack. 

I think you are showing tremendous commitment to the marriage which is great. Now you need to focus on comprehension. 

Guys who have good/great marriages understand their wives. 

Guys who declare 'women' incomprehensible, tend to not get on so well with them. 

And more than half what your wife says, is said via non verbal communication. Verbal in this case means: only the actual words spoken. 

Not tone, or pacing or volume or facial expression or body posture. Because those things are giving you a steady stream of information. 

Watch episode 1 of season 1 of the series 'Lie to me'. 

It's a 40 minute investment in time. 






thread the needle said:


> Agreed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

I am just concerned that guys are expected to figure out what the gals mean, but gals are not expected to care what the guys want.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

My wife and I have _always_ had communication issues.

And here's the thing that dawned on me in the past week or so: we always will.

But as long as we can acknowledge that, and understand that, from both sides, it will all work itself out.

When I'm continually trying to figure her out and get twisted up in knots and she does the "you just don't hear it the way I meant it..."

Things go wrong. Because now the expectation is that I will always have my wife-O-tron translator running. And how I experience what she says gets repressed... which ends up as anger eventually for me and frustration for her.

Same, vice versa. She will want my acceptance for "what she meant" but then ask me to change my communication style because what I try to say comes off as wrong to her. Which ends up as frustration for me and anger for her.

So I stopped trying. I accept it, acknowledge it, and seek clarity if I think I may have got it wrong -- but always assume good intentions first. 

And I communicate with her the way I want. "Why can't we just be romantic without you being sexual" garnered a recent response "It's one of the ways I express romance. It's who I am." And then just, you know, own that.

It doesn't mean that you don't listen, reflect, or think about what you're saying and doing, or what she's saying and doing. It does mean, however, that you own your style, too.


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## bob1471 (Dec 27, 2013)

I go to work where everyone is normal and polite to each other then I come home and everything seems to be taken the wrong way and theres always misunderstanding. Sometimes I think my wife is not right in the head....

Last weekend. She took the baby out with her mother - I had some work to do at home. Beforehand I said Im going to work until 4pm then I've got to pop out to visit someone. If you come home by 4 then I'll take the baby with me to give you a rest. Up to you. 

She then sat around all morning and didnt leave until 1pm. I even text her at 3pm to say offer is still there if you want to come home and I'll take baby.

But her answer was I've not been gone long so no problem just go on your own.

Of course, I get home and its my fault for going to visit someone when she'd made an effort to take the baby out of the way so that I could work. And that she hadnt done this so I could waste time visiting someone! WTF!!!!!


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

bob1471 said:


> ...I get home and its my fault for going to visit someone when she'd made an effort to take the baby out of the way so that I could work. And that she hadnt done this so I could waste time visiting someone! WTF!!!!!


Sounds to me like a common-or-garden sh!t test.


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## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

Rowan said:


> .... There are plenty of men around who expect at least a moderate level of clairvoyance from their partners, refuse to communicate, and are nearly pathologically conflict-avoidant. Playing "read my mind" isn't a gender-specific game.


I think clairvoyance/ conflict-avoidant modes map onto Myers Briggs "F" Types. Two-thirds of women and one-third of men are "F" type.




thread the needle said:


> ... Since we have had issues in the past where I didn't pay attention and now I am, I am trying to learn here what the hell that is about and if there is a more accurate way to communicate





Rowan said:


> she could have asked if you wanted her to pick up some clams ... _you_ could have stated upfront that you were just wondering. Your wife assumed ... You assumed ... _together_ you need to work out a method of communication that feels safe and works well for both of you.


Google "speaker listener technique". Very powerful approach.



thread the needle said:


> ... my wife never acknowledges my daughter's feelings as legitimate when she is upset. My wife launches right into all that my daughter failed to consider and why she should not have those feelings ...my daughter does not feel heard.


Not surprising that your daughter doesn't feel heard by her mother. She isn't being heard! Your wife won't take at face value what is actually being said by you, but 'has to' embellish it and look for (non-existent) 'between the lines' content. Your wife won't take at face value the feelings that are being expressed by your daughter, but 'has to' invalidate them and switch the conversation from 'feeling' mode into 'thinking mode' ["My wife launches right into ... why she should not have those feelings"].

I suppose that, if one wanted to attempt to 'label' or 'analyse' what is going on between your wife and daughter, it may be that your wife is unconsciously 'exporting her Shadow' into her daughter ('Shadow' in the Jungian sense of repressed personal characteristics that the ego won't accept - in your wife's case, 'hardness', 'cold logic', unfeelingness and so on). It all gets rather complicated though. Having repressed these tendencies, only for them to emerge in her interactions with your daughter (no doubt rationalised as 'toughening her up for the modern world'), your wife does feel some awareness that she has a - let's call a spade a spade - nasty, if not downright sadistic, part to her - and then (subconscious apprehension, tit-for-tat), she can only 'expect' nastiness in return from a loved one and sees it in your innocuous compliments. Seriously. Do you find that your wife is more prickly with your compliments when things aren't going well between her and your daughter?

Anyway, what can you do about it? The thing about feelings is that they just 'are'. They don't need defending, justifying, explanation by the feeler, and they're not amenable to being logic-ed away by the hearer. Nor is invalidating them helpful, especially when validation is zero-cost to the listener (validation doesn't mean any of : I 'agree' / I would feel the same / You are 'right' to have those feelings / You should hold onto those feelings / etc etc). 

I might try invalidating my my wife's feelings once or twice, purely as a demonstration of what she is doing to our daughter. But then again, I might not. My mother has been exporting her Shadow into my sister for over sixty years and it ain't pretty. The latter suffers, and the former is oblivious. It's a tough nut to crack.



MEM11363 said:


> So gradually get good at this subtext thing - or accept that you will be frustrated.


And, in parallel, your wife needs to 

> get good at direct communication. 

> understand - and feel - that the 'dancing around each other' involved in subtext-mode tends to be experienced by the direct-mode-preference spouse not as an indicator of loving concern, but as an energy drain. I wouldn't want to overdramatise this aspect - it can be seen as a 'worthwhile' energy expenditure ("happy wife, happy life") but it IS an energy expenditure, and it's effectively forced on (question in passing - is that 'loving'?) the direct-mode spouse by the subtext-mode spouse not being clear upfront (see my comment on flea market below). I assume that, correspondingly, the subtext-mode spouse experiences having to be direct as an energy drain, even though I can't identify with that myself.

"Subtext" mode doesn't trump "direct" mode. It's not innately more 'preferable' or more 'civilised' or even more 'feeling' Both have their place. Importantly, when one spouse is highly stressed (for whatever reason), the other has a golden opportunity to bend over backwards to really make an effort to use the stressed spouse's preferred mode of communication.



MEM11363 said:


> As for specific examples. Wife saying: flea market closes at 4. Was her nicely suggesting you take the highway. She was making a request in a rational manner..I'm not sure what it was you think is odd or off about what she did.


What is odd or off about it is that she could have said:

"I'd really prefer that we take the highway. I'd like to spend a bit longer than usual at the flea market"; or

"I'd really prefer that we take the highway. Once or twice we've had big tail-backs on this route"; or

"I'd like to be at the market by [time T]. Do you think we'll be there going this route? If there's any doubt, could we take the highway".

Or if she wants to be 'nice':

"I know you really prefer this quiet route. But today, I'd like .. [add on one of the examples above]

It's pretty clear, of course, that there's a sub-text to "The flea market closes at 4". But the sub-text is really no more than:

"I'd like to initiate a discussion about whether this is the appropriate route to drive to the market today"

To which the only rational response is:

"I'm all ears to hear what you have to say".

So, why not initiate the discussion, meaningfully, upfront? Why offload onto your spouse the guessing game of what the opening statement really meant?

It occurs to me as I write that "flea market closes at 4" MIGHT have meant:

"I'd really appreciate it if you could work out that I would feel more comfortable if you volunteer now to go the highway"

or

"It would be really great if you mentioned that you do remember that I said last Thursday week (as you were rushing out the door late for work), that I need extra time at the market to get auntie a birthday present"

or

... I'll stop there.




MEM11363 said:


> Her getting you clams - was purely an act of kindness on her part.


IMHO it would have been kinder to have made some effort to sound out whether he wanted them, rather than dumping in his lap a load of clams that he didn't ask for and didn't want. Was he supposed to pretend that he'd wanted them when he got them? Serious question.




MEM11363 said:


> In a way, you seem to view your marriage as a type of puzzle that can be optimized. The biggest issue with that is your W is likely to sometimes feel that you have confused fixing the marriage with fixing her.
> And that is not a good feeling. And it won't work


I agree. I would add again that "subtext mode" doesn't trump "direct mode" and that both have their place.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mike,

Direct communication is a great thing. And in regard to the mechanics of life, generally the more direct we are the better.

But where love and romance are concerned, direct communication often makes the experience a lot less fun. 

That said, gift giving ranges from giving someone cash to giving someone a non returnable gift they need to use soon - like clams. 

I find it a bit ironic when a husband describes two situations:
- In one he chooses the quality of experience over efficiency (driving to the market)
- In the other his wife chooses the quality of the experience (surprise, generosity) over efficiency - asking him the cheapest place to but clams

In BOTH cases he describes her behavior as either confusing or irrational. 

He isn't mean spirited about it. Just judgmental. 

Here's the interesting thing. We've all got a limited number of good will points with a partner. 

How we use those points says a lot about us. Do we focus on helping our partner become a better parent, or instead to be a more efficient crustacean shopper?




Mike6211 said:


> I think clairvoyance/ conflict-avoidant modes map onto Myers Briggs "F" Types. Two-thirds of women and one-third of men are "F" type.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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