# Is My Wife Cheating On Me



## JayPau

Hi! I'm a 45 years old, my wife is 42 and we have two kids, 14 and 12. We first met in the mid 90s and got married in 2003. Our time together has been quite good. We enjoyed being together and doing lots of activities with our kids and relatives on both sides of our families. My wife and I rarely fought, but when we did we were able to make up and settle things without any resentment.

Things have changed over the last several months and this is why I am here asking for feedback and advice. There has been a number of changes in my wife's behavior going back to about last September (2018). Here are the changes I have observed: distance from me except during sex, she seems very distracted, spends more time on her iphone messaging or texting, quickly puts her phone down when I come near her, spends a lot of time on Facebook, deletes browser history, spends more time grooming herself, bought a lot more new clothes (including Victoria's Secret undies), rarely looks me in the eyes anymore, sex has been more frequent and intense, lies about all sorts of mundane things. 

What has not changed: she still comes home at the same time after work, she still smiles at times, she does her usual things around the house that she's always done (likes to cook). I sense that something is very wrong and it's eating my guts. 

I have asked her several times if everything is okay. How is work and so forth. She keeps saying there is nothing wrong and it's all in my head. In fact, she becomes defensive without yelling at me. I'm convinced she's hiding something. Our cell bill shows very little activity on her phone as far as texts and calls go. It does not add up, she texts/messages a lot. I have not seen any messaging apps on her phone, so I'm not sure how she's messaging others. 

My wife has never gave me any reason to doubt her love for me, but her behavior is quite alarming. I want to know the truth then move on from there. Thank you for your insight!


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## Marc878

Red flags for sure. Put a voice activated recorder in her car. Stop any type of confrontation or questioning or you'll just send this deeper underground if she is cheating.

There has to be an app that bypasses your phone bill on her phone. Check sgain


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## Luminous

+1 for the Voice Activated Recorded. Get at least 2. One for her car and one for the house.

As for her messaging not showing up on the bill, most messaging apps use data instead of being an actual SMS.

I would also recommend getting a GPS tracker for your wife's car. Depending on the make of car you can get ones that plug straight into the OBD (On Board Diagnostics) port located normally underneath the steering column.

A disclaimer though. Doing this stuff will suck, you may question why you are doing it and be tempted to back out and believe it's all in your head. Keep going it will be the only thing that will eventually give you clarity.

Keep acting like everything is fine. Keep gathering evidence, do not confront her about anything until you have solid proof.


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## Tasorundo

What do you mean by grooming?

Most cell plans use data for texting and all apps would use data for texting.

See if you can get her phone sometime. Can you unlock it? I so, get it while she is in the shower or something and look through it, things like FB messenger, whatsapp, instagram, etc.


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## The Middleman

My advice, take a couple of days off from work and follow her. Most people say don’t do this or hire a PI. I see nothing wrong with doing it yourself. Also the voice activated recorder in the car and a GPS in the car. If you do all the above, you’ll have your answer in less than a week.


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## FalCod

It certainly doesn't sound good, but I've seen at least one case where someone destroyed a perfectly good marriage by going all paranoid for no reason and drove his wife away with excessively controlling behavior.

It seems like you have a couple of options. As others above said, you can go into detective mode. You can use recorders, hire a private investigator, install a tracker, etc. Does she leave her computer open? If so, you can look at her Google Timeline to see where her phone has been going. It keeps a lot of history.

The other option is to talk to her about it. Tell her what you've observed and what your concerns are. Tell her that letting her look through her phone with her would help you feel much better. If she's having an affair, she'll probably object. You'll know all that you need to know. On the other hand, if she's been fearing exactly this, she may have been covering her tracks on her phone and now she'll know that you are suspicious.

I'll add a couple of superfluous points. Couples should have access to each others phones, computers, etc. They shouldn't go around snooping on each other, but neither should they be hiding anything. In my house, my wife, the kids, and I are all trusted contacts in Google and can use Trusted Connections to see exactly where each other's phone is, BUT when you do this it tells the other person who is checking. It seems like a reasonable compromise and we've rarely used it.

Also, do you guys really get a log of who is calling and texting who on your phones? My bill doesn't break it down like that at all. I can just see how much data each person is using, but not what they are using it for.


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## FalCod

Oh, one other thing. You mentioned an increase in sexual frequency. Is she mentally and emotionally present with you during sex? Is there a lot of kissing and eye contact? That would be a very positive sign whereas physical only sex could imply that you're a stand-in while she's imagining someone else.

Also, does she talk to you about y'all's future dreams and desires? Does she talk about what she wants to do with you in a few years, in decades, etc? A common topic of conversation with my wife and I is our plans for our future together. I would imagine that if either of us checked out emotionally, that would change.


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## oldshirt

Something is absolutely amiss here and you have more than enough justification to go into detective mode and start digging into this with stone-cold seriousness. 

Stop asking her about it. If you ask, she will just say no and then know that you are getting suspicious and will go deeper underground and cover her tracks better. You want her to be confident and complacent. 

Hack into her computers, emails, social media etc. Look not only for conversations with other men but also check her convos with her girlfriends as most WWs have some GFs that they brag to and discuss their affairs with. Some GFs are even go-betweens that support the affair and act as messenger between the WW and the OM. 

Place a VAR in her car and anywhere in the house that she may be having private conversations. 

Place GPS tracker in her car. 

Hire a PI. 

You will have your answer in a week or so. 

I would also encourage you to see a lawyer now to determine your rights and responsibilities in a divorce and determine if proof of an affair would be any advantage to you in a divorce or not and what you should be doing now before you discover the truth of her activities. 

I'd place her having some sort of inappropriate contact with another at around 98% from what you have stated so far. 

The VAR should reveal the truth quite quickly.


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## Thound

1st. Stop asking questions. Act like everything is fine or else she will go even further underground if she is indeed having an affair. She may be going thru perimenopause to. Women tend to go thru some weird changes at around 40.


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## JayPau

Thank you for all of your replies. A little more to add. My wife always parks her car in front of her office before work and does not get back into her car until she picks our kids up before coming home with them. I know this because our car has a GPS in it and I can confirm this. I didn't start using the app for this GPS until I became suspicious. The mileage always checks out too.

If she is leaving after parking before work, it's to an office nearby, or she might be jumping into someone else's car. She can say she's at work, but she could be taking time off and meeting with someone. 

As for her iphone, I can get access to it. Our cell bill shows the date, time and cell number of texts as long as she's not texting another iPhone. Text convos she has with Androids show all of the above information on our bill. It just blows me away that our bill can show she only had 45 texts for a whole month, yet she's a texting machine. It's either she's mostly texting other iPhones, or she's using an app or website and deleting her browser history.


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## TDSC60

My wife and I have iPhones.

I set up Life360 on them. You have to download and install the app on both phones then send her phone a request which must be answered from her phone. I was able to do all that without her knowledge. Now I can see where the phone goes. If she is taking trips in someone else's car, this app will show you where she goes.

It also allows you to label locations, home, wife's work, etc. You get a ping on your phone each time she leaves or arrive at these locations.

Or just have a PI do it.

Did your wife model her new undies for you or did you just happen on them? 

The increase in sex can be good or bad. I had a friend whose wife was in an affair. When she was finally caught (by OM's wife) she told my friend that she intentionally increased the frequency of at-home-sex so he would not be suspicious of her being in an affair.

There are certainly enough red flags to warrant further investigation, but it could be nothing.

A good PI might be able to secure texts sent from and app. Talk to one about what can and cannot be done before you pay any money out.


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## Wolfman1968

You know, I can't remember when the last time that the answer was "No" in a thread with a title like "Is my wife cheating on me".


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## TJW

JayPau said:


> distance from me except during sex, she seems very distracted, spends more time on her iphone messaging or texting, quickly puts her phone down when I come near her, spends a lot of time on Facebook, deletes browser history, spends more time grooming herself, bought a lot more new clothes (including Victoria's Secret undies), rarely looks me in the eyes anymore, sex has been more frequent and intense, lies about all sorts of mundane things.
> 
> She keeps saying there is nothing wrong and it's all in my head.


All of these things can be found in the Cheater's Handbook. The "...all in your head..." is called "gaslighting".

Sorry to have to bear that news, but the sooner you start responding accordingly, the better off you'll be. 

Don't discount the possibility of a "burner" phone.


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## oldshirt

JayPau said:


> It just blows me away that our bill can show she only had 45 texts for a whole month, yet she's a texting machine. It's either she's mostly texting other iPhones, or she's using an app or website and deleting her browser history.


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...… it's probably not a flamingo.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

JayPau said:


> Thank you for all of your replies. A little more to add. My wife always parks her car in front of her office before work and does not get back into her car until she picks our kids up before coming home with them. I know this because our car has a GPS in it and I can confirm this. I didn't start using the app for this GPS until I became suspicious. The mileage always checks out too.
> 
> If she is leaving after parking before work, it's to an office nearby, or she might be jumping into someone else's car. She can say she's at work, but she could be taking time off and meeting with someone.
> 
> As for her iphone, I can get access to it. Our cell bill shows the date, time and cell number of texts as long as she's not texting another iPhone. Text convos she has with Androids show all of the above information on our bill. It just blows me away that our bill can show she only had 45 texts for a whole month, yet she's a texting machine. It's either she's mostly texting other iPhones, or she's using an app or website and deleting her browser history.


Same red flags over and over. 

She is clearly not using standard SMS/MMS to be texting all the time and only 45 texts show up. As you know the number of apps that support texts are countless. 

You have access to the phone, install Spyware. https://www.flexispy.com/en/cellular-spy-software-how-it-works.htm. FBI used it with ElChapo

For $40 they even install it for you. So consider paying in advance and using their hotline to get it installed in the least amount of time.


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## oldshirt

Let's go point by point and break down some of the red flags in your post. 

Responses in bold below. 




JayPau said:


> Things have changed over the last several months .
> 
> *A significant change in behavior is always at least a yellow flag requiring some further investigation.
> 
> 
> There has been a number of changes in my wife's behavior going back to about last September (2018).
> 
> A behavior change pinpointed to a specific time frame in a darker yellow flag. Think back - did anything occur around that time that you can think of? ie someone new at her work, a new neighbor, started a yoga class or going to a new gym etc etc?
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the changes I have observed: distance from me
> 
> Red flag and often a canary in the mine shaft. One of the first signs of developing an interest in a 3rd party.
> 
> except during sex,
> 
> 
> As others have mentioned, an active or even vigorous sex life does not rule out an A and often a ramped up libido or increased interest in sex can often be temporary sign of getting a hormonal surge from a sexual interest in someone else.
> 
> she seems very distracted, spends more time on her iphone messaging or texting, quickly puts her phone down when I come near her, spends a lot of time on Facebook, deletes browser history
> 
> These are very classic and almost universal signs of an A. This is blinding red flag too glaring to ignore.
> 
> 
> , spends more time grooming herself,
> 
> Another bright red sign.
> 
> 
> bought a lot more new clothes (including Victoria's Secret undies),
> 
> Very important question - has she worn them with you and did you know about them or did you find them on your own and she did not wear them with you? If it is the latter, there are test kits to test them for the presence of semen.
> 
> rarely looks me in the eyes anymore,
> 
> Red flag that may point towards a feeling of guilt or of loss of respect and attraction that often accompanies an affair.
> 
> 
> sex has been more frequent and intense,
> 
> As counterintuitive as it may seem, this is not an uncommon occurrence with affairs. Sometimes the sexual excitement and hormonal surge that occurs with someone else will bleed over into the marital sexual experience. And as others have said above, sometimes the cheater will intentionally or even subconsciously ratchet up the marital sex life to sooth over the BS and keep them fat and happy so they don't get suspicious and start snooping around.
> 
> 
> lies about all sorts of mundane things.
> 
> This is a bright red flag and a critical sign if it is out of character and a change in behavior for her.
> 
> What has not changed: she still comes home at the same time after work,
> 
> How about other activities such as any classes, going to the gym, any new friends or social groups etc? Any change of schedule or change of routine with that? Otherwise if the A is occur at work or during work hours she may be coming home all happy and content.
> 
> 
> I sense that something is very wrong and it's eating my guts.
> 
> This is probably the biggest red flag of them all. God gave you an instinctual intuition for a reason, don't ignore it.
> 
> I have asked her several times if everything is okay. How is work and so forth. She keeps saying there is nothing wrong and it's all in my head. In fact, she becomes defensive without yelling at me.
> 
> Look up the term DARVO. It is a universal tactic amongst cheaters. Rug sweeping and twisting it back onto the BS imagining things and being controlling and paranoid are right out of page #3 of the Cheater's Handbook.
> 
> 
> I'm convinced she's hiding something.
> 
> She is. People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.
> 
> Our cell bill shows very little activity on her phone as far as texts and calls go. It does not add up, she texts/messages a lot. I have not seen any messaging apps on her phone, so I'm not sure how she's messaging others.
> 
> 
> Another huge, bright red flag. She is using an app to communicate that doesn't show up on the phone or on the bill. This shows intent and shows that she is either looking into how conduct clandestine communication or is being coached on how to do it.
> 
> !*


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## sunsetmist

Burner phone, KIK, Words with Friends, you can google other apps....have message exchange.

What's App is the best. It also has end to end encryption. This means if you want to send some "special" photos/video that it is safe. 

TipCalc is an app where you can store the files under the disguise as a tip calculator. 

AdoreMe.com ..... it's the get home surprise or picture sharing fun.


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## Wolfman1968

OP, stop asking questions of her, it will only put her on guard. You want to get the evidence before you confront.

Look up Weightlifter's EVIDENCE POST. That's usually the best starting point.


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## Lostinthought61

are there days she comes home and showers right away? if that was to happen grab her undies and see if there is any semen discharge...also get a VAR voice Activate Recorder and see if it is possible to plant in her purse if it is large enough.


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## Wolfman1968

This is the link to Weightlifter's Evidence Post:

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


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## Spicy

Probably an affair at work, with a guy with an iphone.


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## michzz

OK, it is very possible that she is just socializing on facebook in various groups, and deletes her browser history, not to hide anything from you, but because it's nobody's business what she does on the computer.

I don't cheat, but I delete my browser history all the time. I even use private browsing.

Why? Because if my computer were stolen or if someone poked around in it, it would be an invasion of privacy.

What if she just has a set of girlfriends that shoot the breeze and sometimes say crap about their husbands?

What if she just has gotten to point in her life where she wants to hump her husband more than she used to?

What if what I suspect is true and she finds out what you are doing to investigate your fears?

Are you prepared for that?


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## TDSC60

What does your wife do for work?

Does she travel a lot?

Is she a member of a society or club or committee with regular meetings?

Does she go out with friends for girl's night out?

Did she start spending more time out of the house around the time you noticed the change in her behavior?


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## BruceBanner

michzz said:


> OK, it is very possible that she is just socializing on facebook in various groups, and deletes her browser history, not to hide anything from you, but because it's nobody's business what she does on the computer.
> 
> I don't cheat, but I delete my browser history all the time. I even use private browsing.
> 
> Why? Because if my computer were stolen or if someone poked around in it, it would be an invasion of privacy.
> 
> What if she just has a set of girlfriends that shoot the breeze and sometimes say crap about their husbands?
> 
> What if she just has gotten to point in her life where she wants to hump her husband more than she used to?
> 
> What if what I suspect is true and she finds out what you are doing to investigate your fears?
> 
> Are you prepared for that?


What are the odds of any of these being true? When have any of these ever been the case when a post such as OP's is posted here?


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## Taxman

I concur with going silent and NOT confronting in any way shape or form. When you have evidence, that is absolutely incontrovertible then and only then. To that end, use a PI. You doing the detective work yourself will generally lead to YOU being discovered. You will drive them deeper underground. I have had the best success with a private investigator. In this manner, the wayward spouse is caught with their pants down, and not a leg to stand on. I have had a meeting where the wayward spouse thought that she had really gotten away with it. She had asked for a separation, so she could clear her head. While she was in the meeting, our people were delivering our results to interested parties. (Her HR department, her selected family, and her OMW). About a half hour into the meeting, my client's solicitor's assistant interrupted, and told the solicitor that all parties were served. The solicitor stopped the discussion, and outlined what was happening. My client was silent and stone faced. First our evidence came out. Video, photographic, even a credit bureau report on the OM. The WW went from defiant and assured to a quivering mass of jelly. Her husband said to her, "Thanks for treating me like **** for the past few months. You have just lost your damn job, so has "joyboy". His wife was informed in the last half hour, she has assured her husband that he will find himself a eunuch if he ever sees her again. She launched herself on the floor, literally turned into a five year old. Caught her saying that men are pigs and she was justified. Her husband said that he had never done anything to her to warrant this. She has the nerve to say that she deserves her fun and that he should support her. I finally said, go have fun. Just, you get SFA out of your husband because of this.


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## OnTheFly

michzz said:


> What if what I suspect is true and she finds out what you are doing to investigate your fears?


She'll fall more deeply in love with him for caring?


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## faithfulman

michzz said:


> OK, it is very possible that she is just socializing on facebook in various groups, and deletes her browser history, not to hide anything from you, but because it's nobody's business what she does on the computer.
> 
> I don't cheat, but I delete my browser history all the time. I even use private browsing.
> 
> Why? Because if my computer were stolen or if someone poked around in it, it would be an invasion of privacy.
> 
> What if she just has a set of girlfriends that shoot the breeze and sometimes say crap about their husbands?
> 
> What if she just has gotten to point in her life where she wants to hump her husband more than she used to?
> 
> What if what I suspect is true and she finds out what you are doing to investigate your fears?
> 
> Are you prepared for that?


All of those individual things are possible. With each additional item, the likelihood decreases dramatically. 

The answer is JayPau should find out what is true, and he needs to do that without alerting his wife.


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## michzz

michzz said:


> What if what I suspect is true and she finds out what you are doing to investigate your fears?
> 
> Are you prepared for that?





BruceBanner said:


> What are the odds of any of these being true? When have any of these ever been the case when a post such as OP's is posted here?


Well, in my own case as an example of one. I chat with friends from high school on FB, and I do not keep a history of the conversations. None are terrible, none are flirty. I just don't like to share them. I love my wife and love to spend time with her. sometimes i step u my game and buy a new shirt and get a hair cut.

I put down my phone when interacting with my wife.

What is that evidence of?



OnTheFly said:


> She'll fall more deeply in love with him for caring?


That seems counter-intuitive to me. She'll be furious.


Look, I am the first person who says do not suffer cheaters. The betrayal I endured by my first wife will beat most of yours in a "top this" game.

That said, I do not think there is enough evidence here to warrant a full-scale, convinced of guilt sly investigation.

If there were? I'd pile on.


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## OnTheFly

michzz said:


> That said, I do not think there is enough evidence here to warrant a full-scale, convinced of guilt sly investigation.


I respectfully disagree.

Take away ALL the red flags, the simple fact that his gut instincts tells him something is wrong is more than enough. 

All investigations are ''sly''. If they turn up nothing, no harm, no foul. If they do turn up something, it'll better prepare him for whatever course he decides to follow. 

No one here is having a pissing contest with regards to whose story is worse. 

What a wonderful world if all red flags had innocent explanations, I would certainly prefer that to the endless stories of infidelity.


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## michzz

So, I'm not trying for a pissing contest. I'm expressing an opinion based on my experiences.

The OP can take it or leave it.

I just think that he should be prepared to find out that his fear is baseless and if so and his wife finds out the lengths he might go to test out his fears, it can have a negative impact on his marriage. 

If, however, she is cheating? he knows his path.


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## OnTheFly

michzz said:


> So, I'm not trying for a pissing contest. I'm expressing an opinion based on my experiences.
> 
> The OP can take it or leave it.
> 
> I just think that he should be prepared to find out that his fear is baseless and if so and his wife finds out the lengths he might go to test out his fears, it can have a negative impact on his marriage.
> 
> If, however, she is cheating? he knows his path.


I hope you don't think I'm angry or arguing for the sake of arguing, but I'm sincerely trying to figure out what you're trying to tell the OP.

According to the ''cheater's handbook'' she's exhibiting certain red flags. It is my hope, also, that they are all innocent. 

What are you suggesting he do?


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## Chuck71

The only way to predict present or future behavior is by past behavior.

Even if....she is text blasting g/fs all evening, what's that say about quality time with spouse and 

kids? When texts first came out, XW had a smartphone. She would text with her g/fs 

for hours in the evening. "Your g/fs have you from 8-5, I'd appreciate having your

attention afterwards." She stopped.....no arguing. When I spent too much time on my 

PhD studies, XW called me on it...... I cut back. No arguing. 

OP I HOPE that is what it is.....but 95% of the time, it isn't.


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## JayPau

I will try to answer many of the questions that have been asked.

I cannot recall a specific incident that has led me to be suspicious of my wife.

The lingerie she has bought has not been kept a secret from me. She was worn some of it to bed with me. She wears the lace undies to work these, she never did that before.

She has not joined any new social groups, or started a new gym membership. She has a girls night out about every 2 to 3 months.

She does not come home from work and shower right away. That said, she does not like me doing the laundry anymore.

My wife works for a mortgage broker. She does not travel for work.

Her schedule and activities outside of the house has not changed much. That said, there has been at least for occasions where she said she was at some location when in fact she was not. One time she said she was at her office, when her credit card said she was eating an early lunch 4 miles away from her office.

While our sex has been more frequent, there is not a lot of kissing. She talks a lot more dirty and and enjoys giving oral more now.

She seems completely consumed by something. When she gets caught in a lie, she quickly changes the subject. 

She spends hours on her phone surfing the net, yet there are only a few items in her browser history after she is done. I can now confirm she turns off mail, phone and text message notifications when she's not near her phone.

Just yesterday, she left me and our daughter in a grocery store while she went to another store so she could hide and message someone. My daughter found her in the other store texting away. She told me this. My wife told our daughter not to say anything about this to me. Now she's using our daughter to keep secrets. What is this middle school? hahaha


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## FalCod

Yeah, she's either planning the world's most elaborate surprise party for you or she's cheating.

Now you have to think about what you are going to do about it.


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## JayPau

I thought it was an online fling, until she started buying lots of new clothes and spending a lot of time in the morning making herself look great before she leaves for work. As far as I'm concerned, it does not matter if it's an emotional or physical affair. It's the fact that she's hiding something of this magnitude and she knows it's wrong. This is a complete betrayal, nothing more. If I can prove it, then I will need to take some time to figure out what is best for me and my kids.


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## OnTheFly

You've got some of TAMs finest commenting here (me, not included), such as Taxman, OldShirt, and others. Please follow their advice.

It's hard to tell because of your low post count how you'll response. I hope and pray it's not to rugsweep or to come here to just to complain without taking action. 

Many of us have ''cheater'' goggles on, but the info you've given so far is not looking good, and you have a right to feel suspicious.

So, please, feel free to keep posting, but also please take some action. (By action, I mean, measured, stoic)

EDIT: Your post above mine is reassuring!


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## Chuck71

Definitely cause for concern.....

IF this is an EA or PA, she is not good at trying to conceal it. 

Have you considered a keylogger on her phone?

Personally I would ask for her phone. If she refuses or lets you after she clears the browser,

she is hiding something. Something she does not want you to know.

There truly are no secrets in a M. Reason why your spouse can not testify against you.


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## JayPau

I plan to use a software to see the entire history of her phone. I will also look into a VAR in our car when she has it. I want to stop feeling like **** and get some answers.


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## JayPau

Is there a link for common abbreviations/acronyms used in these forums?


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## tech-novelist

I'll chime in only to agree with the old-timers here who have seen it all.
There is a 99% probability that she is cheating on you.
I don't make it 100% because I suppose there is always an exception.


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## Chuck71

JayPau said:


> I plan to use a software to see the entire history of her phone. I will also look into a VAR in our car when she has it. I want to stop feeling like **** and get some answers.


Right now...... what does your gut tell you?


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## Tasorundo

It cannot be stressed enough to not confront her or talk about this with her until you know. Anything you do now will keep you from ever finding out.


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## JayPau

Chuck71 said:


> Right now...... what does your gut tell you?


Obviously, I don't know all of the facts, but my gut says she's up to something. I have been feeling this way for MONTHS. The fact that these feelings have not gone away tells me a lot.


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## Tasorundo

You need to get into that phone and the VAR, it will very quickly answer all of your questions.

When you say she doesn't want you to do laundry, what does that look like? Like she just does it, or tells you not to?


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## JayPau

Tasorundo said:


> It cannot be stressed enough to not confront her or talk about this with her until you know. Anything you do now will keep you from ever finding out.


It's very hard to pretend like nothing is wrong, but I certainly understand what you're saying. At times, I feel like talking with her about it. I'm trying my best to not show my hand.


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## JayPau

Tasorundo said:


> You need to get into that phone and the VAR, it will very quickly answer all of your questions.
> 
> When you say she doesn't want you to do laundry, what does that look like? Like she just does it, or tells you not to?


She just says don't do the laundry, I'll (she'll) do it.


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## Tasorundo

So, this is gross and weird, but if she doing that so you don't look at her laundry, look at it when you get a chance. If she is hiding an affair, she would be concerned with her underwear, and I am sure you can fill in the blanks on that.


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## JayPau

Tasorundo said:


> So, this is gross and weird, but if she doing that so you don't look at her laundry, look at it when you get a chance. If she is hiding an affair, she would be concerned with her underwear, and I am sure you can fill in the blanks on that.


Lets just say I'm not just looking at her laundry. I'm paying close attention to what she says and does.


----------



## Tasorundo

I get it, I just mention that, because if you were investigating someone and they seemed to want to keep you away from something, it is a logical place to look.


----------



## Luminous

JayPau said:


> It's very hard to pretend like nothing is wrong, but I certainly understand what you're saying. At times, I feel like talking with her about it. I'm trying my best to not show my hand.


If possible, try to compartmentalise it. Easier said than done of course, but with the knowledge that at the end of it you will get an answer, and for your own sake/health I hope it's sooner rather than later.


----------



## sunsetmist

FYI:
AAMOF = as a matter of fact
AP = Affair Partner
ASAP = as soon as possible
b/c = because
BAK = back at keyboard
BBFN = bye bye for now
BBL = be back later
BBS = be back soon
BF = boyfriend or best friend
BFN = bye for now
BH = Betrayed Husband
BIL = brother-in-law
BK = back
BRB = be right back
BRBGGP = be right back gotta go potty
BS = Betrayed Spouse 
BSC = Bat sh*t crazy
BTDT = been there, done that
BTW = by the way
BW = Betrayed Wife
CBTB = can’t believe the bulls***
CRAFT = can't remember a fricking thing
CRS = can't remember stuff (or use your imagination for S)
CSA = Childhood Sexual Abuse
CU = see you
CUL8R = see you later
CWIM = see what I mean
CYA = see ya
DB = dear boyfriend
DC = dear child
DD = dear daughter
D-Day = divorce day -or- affair Discovery Day
DF = dear fiancée
DG = dear girlfriend
DH = dear husband
DS = dear son
DSD = dear stepdaughter
DSS = dear stepson
DW = dear wife
EA = emotional affair
exH = ex husband
exW = ex wife
FIL = father-in-law
FOO = Family of Origin
FTR = for the record
FWH = former wayward husband
FWIW = for what it's worth
FWW = former wayward wife
FYI = for your information
GF = girlfriend
GMTA = great minds think alike
GNO = Girls Night Out
GP = general practitioner
GTG = got to go
HD = High drive (sexual)
HTH = HTH hope this helps
IBRB = I’ll be right back
IC = Individual counseling 
IDK = I don't know
IIWY = if I were you
IIRC = if I recall correctly
ILYNILWYA = "I love you, not in love with you anymore." 
IMHO = in my humble opinion
IMNSHO = in my not so humble opinion
IMO = in my opinion
ISSF = I’m so sexually frustrated
J/J = just joking
J/K = just kidding
KISA = Knight in Shining Armor
KWIM = know what I mean
LD = low drive (sexual drive)
LMAO = laughing my ass off
LOL = laughing out loud
LOL = laughing out loud
LOLROF = laughing out load, rolling on floor
LTNS = long time no see
MC = marriage counseling
MIL = mother-in-law
MLC = mid-life crisis
MYOB = mind your own business
NC = No Contact
NDE = near death experience 
NE = any
NMS = not my style
NMSAA = not my style at all
NP = no problem
OM = other man
OMG = oh my gosh
ONS = one night stand
OP = original poster
OSF = opposite Sex Friends
OT = off topic
OTOH = on the other hand
OW = other woman
PA = physical affair
PA = (sometimes) passive aggressive
PIV = penis in vagina referring to "traditional" sex
PM = private message
POV = POV point of view
PP = previous poster
PUA = Pick Up Artist
ROF = rolling on floor
ROFL = rolling on floor laughing
ROFLMAO = rolling on floor laughing my a** off
ROFLOL = rolling on floor laughing out loud
ROTF = rolling on the floor
SAHD = stay-at-home dad
SAHM = stay-at-home mom
SAHP = stay-at-home parent
SEP = somebody else’s problem 
SIL = sister-in-law
SNAFU = situation normal all fouled up
SO = significant other
SOL = sh** out of luck
SOS = same old stuff (or use you imagination)
STBX = soon to be ex
SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed
TAM = Talk About Marriage
T/J = thread jack
TIA = thanks in advance
TMI = too much information
TOM = the other man
TOW = the other woman
TTFN = tata for now
TTYL = talk to you later
UR = your or you're
VAR = voice activated recorder
W/E = whatever
WAH = work at home
WAW = Walk Away Wife
WB = welcome back
WH = Wayward Husband
WOH = work out of the home
WS = Wayward Spouse
WTG = way to go
WW = Wayward Wife
YW = your welcome
YMMV = your mileage (opinion) may vary


----------



## oldtruck

There are semen testing kits. By some. Then keep checking the dirty
clothes. You find semen you then can have them tested to prove it was
not your semen. Then no way can WW claim that it was your semen.

Also does WW wear special panties on certain days? Make sure you
check that laundry every day.

If not told hide a digital VAR in WW's car. Also put a real time GPS on
WW's car as well.


----------



## Chuck71

JayPau said:


> Lets just say I'm not just looking at her laundry.* I'm paying close attention to what she says and does*.


Pay much more attention to what she DOES than what she SAYS. A WS (wayward spouse) will spew garbage

out of their mouth 98% of the time.


----------



## michzz

michzz said:


> So, I'm not trying for a pissing contest. I'm expressing an opinion based on my experiences.
> 
> The OP can take it or leave it.
> 
> I just think that he should be prepared to find out that his fear is baseless and if so and his wife finds out the lengths he might go to test out his fears, it can have a negative impact on his marriage.
> 
> If, however, she is cheating? he knows his path.





OnTheFly said:


> I hope you don't think I'm angry or arguing for the sake of arguing, but I'm sincerely trying to figure out what you're trying to tell the OP.
> 
> According to the ''cheater's handbook'' she's exhibiting certain red flags. It is my hope, also, that they are all innocent.
> 
> What are you suggesting he do?


Based on the information given, it was not enough.

Now, however, the OP has posted further far more significant details that originally written about. It surprises me that it was left off. 

Given those additional comments, I'm convinced of one of two things. But I'll withhold further comments.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

JayPau said:


> Hi! I'm a 45 years old, my wife is 42 and we have two kids, 14 and 12. We first met in the mid 90s and got married in 2003. Our time together has been quite good. We enjoyed being together and doing lots of activities with our kids and relatives on both sides of our families. My wife and I rarely fought, but when we did we were able to make up and settle things without any resentment.
> 
> Things have changed over the last several months and this is why I am here asking for feedback and advice. There has been a number of changes in my wife's behavior going back to about last September (2018). Here are the changes I have observed: distance from me except during sex, she seems very distracted, spends more time on her iphone messaging or texting, quickly puts her phone down when I come near her, spends a lot of time on Facebook, deletes browser history, spends more time grooming herself, bought a lot more new clothes (including Victoria's Secret undies), rarely looks me in the eyes anymore, sex has been more frequent and intense, lies about all sorts of mundane things.
> 
> What has not changed: she still comes home at the same time after work, she still smiles at times, she does her usual things around the house that she's always done (likes to cook). I sense that something is very wrong and it's eating my guts.
> 
> I have asked her several times if everything is okay. How is work and so forth. She keeps saying there is nothing wrong and it's all in my head. In fact, she becomes defensive without yelling at me. I'm convinced she's hiding something. Our cell bill shows very little activity on her phone as far as texts and calls go. It does not add up, she texts/messages a lot. I have not seen any messaging apps on her phone, so I'm not sure how she's messaging others.
> 
> My wife has never gave me any reason to doubt her love for me, but her behavior is quite alarming. I want to know the truth then move on from there. Thank you for your insight!


Your gut is telling you something is wrong or you would not be on this site. I have read your posts on this thread, and with your wife leaving to go to another store to text, definitely something is amiss. The secret lies in her phone. You know this.

Now, do not confront, you will have to be a good actor for a while as you gather intel. As you have been told..."EYES OPEN MOUTH SHUT". If you start asking too many questions or acting strange, she will take a most clandestine approach making it difficult for you to catch her. A VAR in the car would be a good start. Also, search your house for a burner phone.

After reading your posts from my own personal experience, she is likely in an some type of affair whether it be an EA or PA. Be vigilant.


----------



## Chuck71

JayPau said:


> Obviously, I don't know all of the facts, but my gut says she's up to something. I have been feeling this way for MONTHS. The fact that these feelings have not gone away tells me a lot.


Ever watched Star Wars? Remember when Luke discovered Vader was his father?

He wanted to know but "didn't want to know." When you find out the truth, whichever way it

goes, do NOT confront right then. You must search your feelings first. Is this a deal breaker?

Come here.... posters can give insight in varying ways. Know what you will do, BEFORE 

you confront. If not.... pain and anger with be the driving force of your actions.

Pain leads to anger
Anger leads to hate
Hate leads to the Dark Side

And.... if by the slim chance, there is no EA or PA..... there is a divide in your M. That still needs to be

addressed.... even if this turns out to be all a misunderstanding.


----------



## TJW

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Your gut is telling you something is wrong or you would not be on this site.


When it happened to me, there were no "sites" I could consult. My "gut" was right.



No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> After reading your posts from my own personal experience, she is likely in an some type of affair whether it be an EA or PA.


Echo. My own experience, if reduced to text, would read just like yours. I'm sure, at the time, professional PIs had things like VARs, but none of the computer-based things were around because personal computers had just been introduced. Not many people had one. I did, but I was a codie by trade.

There is an old adage which says "...Charity begins at home...."..... and, in the inimitable paraphrase of Lennie Briscoe "....adultery begins at work....".

Sniff there. It's where I found it.


----------



## JayPau

michzz said:


> Based on the information given, it was not enough.
> 
> Now, however, the OP has posted further far more significant details that originally written about. It surprises me that it was left off.
> 
> Given those additional comments, I'm convinced of one of two things. But I'll withhold further comments.


I'm interested in hearing more from you.


----------



## JayPau

Chuck71 said:


> Pay much more attention to what she DOES than what she SAYS. A WS (wayward spouse) will spew garbage
> 
> out of their mouth 98% of the time.



I agree, but sometimes when she talks I catch her in lies. I make note of that. Also, when she talks I'm hoping she'll slip up and give me a clue or some information.


----------



## skerzoid

I would proceed as if you know she is cheating on you.

1. *Visit a lawyer and find out you rights.* Prepare to have her served when you confront. The process will take a long time so you have time to halt it if she becomes remorseful.

2. *Have yourself tested for STDs.* When you confront, demand that she does this also.

3. _*Stop having sex with her.*_ A judge will view this as forgiveness if it goes to court.

4. *Look up the "180" technique and adhere to it.*

5. *Once you find out the Affair Partner, inform their spouse. * Do not tell your wife you are doing this before you do it.

6. *Be prepared to inform HR where they work.* This can either be used as a threat or a bargaining chip.

7. *Insist on a stern no contact message after the confrontation.* 

8. *Have her write out a timeline to be checked against a polygraph exam*. People denigrate them but the FBI & CIA still use them. Sometimes you get a "parking lot confession" before the test.

9. *Write out what you are going to say in order to stay less emotional when you confront.* 

10. *Expose to friends and family.* Not doing so encourages the affair to keep going.

11. *The people who come out of these things healed are ones who remain strong, courageous, and decisive.*

12. *Never beg or let her see you cry.* That is called the "pick me" dance. It never works. It really makes you unattractive and it is counter intuitive but makes the other man seem strong and attractive.

13. *Consider a private eye.* Expensive but cheaper than divorce or can lead to a cheaper divorce as you've got the goods on them.


----------



## personofinterest

OP, stop asking and start snooping.

As for privacy....no one deletes entire conversations unless they KNOW they are up to something.

No one. Anyine who claims to delete entire harmless conversations is insulting people's intelligence.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

sunsetmist said:


> FYI:
> AAMOF = as a matter of fact
> AP = Affair Partner
> ASAP = as soon as possible
> b/c = because
> BAK = back at keyboard
> BBFN = bye bye for now
> BBL = be back later
> BBS = be back soon
> BF = boyfriend or best friend
> BFN = bye for now
> BH = Betrayed Husband
> BIL = brother-in-law
> BK = back
> BRB = be right back
> BRBGGP = be right back gotta go potty
> BS = Betrayed Spouse
> BSC = Bat sh*t crazy
> BTDT = been there, done that
> BTW = by the way
> BW = Betrayed Wife
> CBTB = can’t believe the bulls***
> CRAFT = can't remember a fricking thing
> CRS = can't remember stuff (or use your imagination for S)
> CSA = Childhood Sexual Abuse
> CU = see you
> CUL8R = see you later
> CWIM = see what I mean
> CYA = see ya
> DB = dear boyfriend
> DC = dear child
> DD = dear daughter
> D-Day = divorce day -or- affair Discovery Day
> DF = dear fiancée
> DG = dear girlfriend
> DH = dear husband
> DS = dear son
> DSD = dear stepdaughter
> DSS = dear stepson
> DW = dear wife
> EA = emotional affair
> exH = ex husband
> exW = ex wife
> FIL = father-in-law
> FOO = Family of Origin
> FTR = for the record
> FWH = former wayward husband
> FWIW = for what it's worth
> FWW = former wayward wife
> FYI = for your information
> GF = girlfriend
> GMTA = great minds think alike
> GNO = Girls Night Out
> GP = general practitioner
> GTG = got to go
> HD = High drive (sexual)
> HTH = HTH hope this helps
> IBRB = I’ll be right back
> IC = Individual counseling
> IDK = I don't know
> IIWY = if I were you
> IIRC = if I recall correctly
> ILYNILWYA = "I love you, not in love with you anymore."
> IMHO = in my humble opinion
> IMNSHO = in my not so humble opinion
> IMO = in my opinion
> ISSF = I’m so sexually frustrated
> J/J = just joking
> J/K = just kidding
> KISA = Knight in Shining Armor
> KWIM = know what I mean
> LD = low drive (sexual drive)
> LMAO = laughing my ass off
> LOL = laughing out loud
> LOL = laughing out loud
> LOLROF = laughing out load, rolling on floor
> LTNS = long time no see
> MC = marriage counseling
> MIL = mother-in-law
> MLC = mid-life crisis
> MYOB = mind your own business
> NC = No Contact
> NDE = near death experience
> NE = any
> NMS = not my style
> NMSAA = not my style at all
> NP = no problem
> OM = other man
> OMG = oh my gosh
> ONS = one night stand
> OP = original poster
> OSF = opposite Sex Friends
> OT = off topic
> OTOH = on the other hand
> OW = other woman
> PA = physical affair
> PA = (sometimes) passive aggressive
> PIV = penis in vagina referring to "traditional" sex
> PM = private message
> POV = POV point of view
> PP = previous poster
> PUA = Pick Up Artist
> ROF = rolling on floor
> ROFL = rolling on floor laughing
> ROFLMAO = rolling on floor laughing my a** off
> ROFLOL = rolling on floor laughing out loud
> ROTF = rolling on the floor
> SAHD = stay-at-home dad
> SAHM = stay-at-home mom
> SAHP = stay-at-home parent
> SEP = somebody else’s problem
> SIL = sister-in-law
> SNAFU = situation normal all fouled up
> SO = significant other
> SOL = sh** out of luck
> SOS = same old stuff (or use you imagination)
> STBX = soon to be ex
> SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed
> TAM = Talk About Marriage
> T/J = thread jack
> TIA = thanks in advance
> TMI = too much information
> TOM = the other man
> TOW = the other woman
> TTFN = tata for now
> TTYL = talk to you later
> UR = your or you're
> VAR = voice activated recorder
> W/E = whatever
> WAH = work at home
> WAW = Walk Away Wife
> WB = welcome back
> WH = Wayward Husband
> WOH = work out of the home
> WS = Wayward Spouse
> WTG = way to go
> WW = Wayward Wife
> YW = your welcome
> YMMV = your mileage (opinion) may vary


 Comprehenseive, however, you left out FUBAR.....want to take a guess what that stands for? I know my military friends on here will get it.


----------



## [email protected]

JayPau, if you look at postings long enough, you'll see that a vast majority of flings are characterized by what your WW is doing. It's an affair, all right. Sorry!


----------



## MyRevelation

Sorry, but I concur with the others. With all these red flags waving, it would be a miracle for your gut to not be correct.

If you can afford it ... at least call for an estimate... follow Taxman’s advice and hire a PI.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

I'll say this again. being you have access to her phone which is the mother lode really. Installing recovery software is fine for what has already happened. 

Spyware though will tell you what is happening in real time. You can watch while her texting, email, phoning etc in real time on a PC or If you can stomach what we here are sure you will find, use it and plan your next steps accordingly.


----------



## Chuck71

JayPau said:


> I agree, but sometimes when she talks I catch her in lies. I make note of that. Also, when she talks I'm hoping she'll slip up and give me a clue or some information.


Then Luke....the answers you already know


----------



## re16

I'm going to reiterate how critical is that you don't get upset and confront now. It makes it so much harder to find answers, if you ever can. If she asks about you acting weird, you need to be ready to say you are stressed out etc, maybe it is work.

You can see percentage of usage of apps in the battery area on her phone, are you sure she doesn't have a burner phone. Check the bluetooth settings in her car to see if there are more phones on it than you are aware of.

Does she talk about any guys from work. Are there any she used to talk about that she doesn't anymore?

This seems like classic workplace affair.


----------



## michzz

personofinterest said:


> OP, stop asking and start snooping.
> 
> As for privacy....no one deletes entire conversations unless they KNOW they are up to something.
> 
> No one. Anyine who claims to delete entire harmless conversations is insulting people's intelligence.


Way too big of a generalization.

I'll delete a confidential conversation from start to finish and it has nothing to do with my spouse and most definitely has nothing to do with any poor behavior either.


----------



## TDSC60

Remember folks he has an on-board GPS in the car, so her phone is the key.

Telling him she was at work while her credit card listed her at a restaurant 4-5 miles away is an indication that she is not driving her car.

I urge you to talk to a PI to find out what they can do for you. For some PIs it can take no more than a day or two to recover deleted items from a phone. Most of the time all they need is the name and phone number plus what type of phone it is. If you have passwords that will help. I had a friend that went the PI route when he suspected his wife of something. The were able to recover deleted messages that confirmed secret texts and a close personal relationship. Then one week of following her confirmed who the other man was and that it was a physical affair.

This is sounding very much like a work place affair with a coworker or someone she met through work.

DO NOT CONFRONT WITHOUT PROOF. This is for your benefit and that of your kids.


----------



## GirlBetrayed

LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, even Pinterest have messaging capability. That’s how my husband got around me finding out about the calls on the phone bill. (If you have Verizon, it’s available online under Data usage.) I would show up to work to surprise her at lunchtime. Since she’s not spending time away from home, it sounds like IF she is having an affair, it’s during her lunch with a coworker. Maybe start by texting her while she’s at lunch to see how quick her reply is. If you have an iPhone, you can do find my friend- get her phone while she’s in the shower, through the app, “ask” permission to follow her, then when it comes up on her phone, accept and delete the message. You can locate her in seconds. Your last resort is to borrow or rent a car for the day and follow her. Or sounds like whatever is going on us at lunch or right on the office- my husband frequently had sec with his ***** in her car over lunch. I hope this isn’t the case, but if I have learned anything it’s to TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS !!!


----------



## turnera

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Your gut is telling you something is wrong or you would not be on this site. I have read your posts on this thread, and with your wife leaving to go to another store to text, definitely something is amiss. The secret lies in her phone. You know this.
> 
> Now, do not confront, you will have to be a good actor for a while as you gather intel. As you have been told..."EYES OPEN MOUTH SHUT". If you start asking too many questions or acting strange, she will take a most clandestine approach making it difficult for you to catch her. A VAR in the car would be a good start. Also, search your house for a burner phone.
> 
> After reading your posts from my own personal experience, she is likely in an some type of affair whether it be an EA or PA. Be vigilant.


J Pau, listen to him. He is one of our success stories. He knows what he's talking about and his wife did a COMPLETE turnaround.


----------



## AVR1962

Something doesn't add up like you mentioned. I think your wife's phone holds the answers you are looking for.


----------



## Jus260

FalCod said:


> Also, do you guys really get a log of who is calling and texting who on your phones? My bill doesn't break it down like that at all. I can just see how much data each person is using, but not what they are using it for.


I always have a hell of a time finding it but Verizon lists incoming and outgoing phone numbers for calls and texts somewhere if you log into your account.


----------



## TJW

It's also very good to have a concrete plan about how you are going to act when you receive the irrefutable information. And, believe me, you will. All criminals, sooner or later, make a dreadful mistake. Actually, their behavior is full of mistakes all along, it's just now that a detective has started looking. 

The reason PIs make good money is that they are disinterested in the outcome of their investigation. They look at FACTS, and they don't have "feelings" getting in the way. They are impartial. And, they have experience at "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc...." they have seen lots of ducks.

It's truly unfortunate and hurtful for you, but your "gut" is telling you the truth. It doesn't lie. And, it knows.

Following discovery, you want to act, not react. Within 2 hours, expose the affair. Tell everybody about it, everybody except children, they shouldn't be forced into an adult situation. Make sure it's known to her family-at-large, and yours. As soon as you find out who the POSOM is, make sure his wife knows.

The words of the Lord Jesus Christ from John 3:20 (KJV)

_For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved._

Make no mistake. Adulterers know they are doing evil. That's why they hide their actions. 

Most affairs come to a pretty quick end when exposed to the close sphere of family and friends. My wife's did, very quickly. She was forced to start another one


----------



## jlg07

Just for your own sake, you may want to start looking at Divorce laws, child custody, etc. laws where you live in case this DOES show that she is having an affair. I am NOT saying you need to D. I AM saying you need to get as much info you can to understand your options if it does come to light. You want to make sure YOUR plan is pretty much worked out if/when you confront because emotions will be running very high and you will be able to use the plan in a logical manner to help combat those so you don't get snowed/confused when she tries to gaslight you.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

You have gotten excellent advice from some of our best here. If she isnt cheating, I will eat my shoe. All the signs are there, sad to say. So head down, mouth shut... get that phone, and I echo those suggesting a PI. I think that would be the fastest way to the truth for you. I have no doubt that lunchtime at work is when this goes down.


----------



## FalCod

Jus260 said:


> I always have a hell of a time finding it but Verizon lists incoming and outgoing phone numbers for calls and texts somewhere if you log into your account.


I use Project Fi. I don't see it anywhere. It's not important to me, so I'm not going to fuss over it. I assumed that when everyone switched to free and unlimited calls and texts, they would drop the reporting of individual calls and texts.


----------



## StillSearching

I'll take within a week it will be "I found out my wife is a cheater."
I feel for you OP.
It's a big *** hammer to the Nuts.


----------



## TJW

3Xnocharm said:


> I have no doubt that lunchtime at work is when this goes down.


Yep. That fits the data. It's could be why you don't see media communication evidence, they don't need it. They have frequent contact. Frequent contact is where affairs start.

4 of her coworkers knew, but none of them ever told me. They were all "friends" of mine, and so were 2 of her POSOMs. I didn't need any PI, because I worked there, too. That's where I caught them. I was about 1 month between "gut" and seeing them together.



GirlBetrayed said:


> if I have learned anything it’s to TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS !!!


Yep. Many of us here who are members of the club none of us wanted to join learned this.
@jlg07 has got it. Lawyer. Like jlg says, you don't have to divorce, or begin any action. Just find out exactly where you stand, and where your kids stand.


----------



## re16

Is she salary or hourly. If hourly, any irregularities in pay or hours worked that doesn't match up to when she was there? Does she accrue vacation? If she does, you should look closely at her sick / vacation time to see if it adds up.

If salary though, I think they can leave for an appointment and unless it is significant, it doesn't count against sick or vacation.

Does she bring lunch?

Are you there in the morning when she gets ready? If there is a day that she is wearing sexy underwear to work, obviously that is a day to watch closely.


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

I'll give you some different advice.

Stop caring about what else she is doing. I mean she's an old end of middle aged woman. Is she really worth all this effort?

Why obsess about all this stuff?

Start checking out of this married life and starting checking into the life of a single man yourself. Stop giving your wife attention just because she is there. Is she earning your attention? What is she doing to earn your attention?

Get a gym membership stat. Use your family money to do it. Get one with personal trainers and have them teach you proper form for serious lifts. The squat, the deadlift, and the bench press. If you've chunked up get on a rowing machine and row until you can't think anymore. Don't tell your wife it's none of her business what you do. Don't come home go to the gym. Don't tell her squat that open communication is now GONE.

Stay out doing other things. Maybe go window shopping at the local mall. Look around at all the different people. Those are all people you could meet! Find some new clothes that make you look sharp. A man should look good. Get yourself some new cologne. Do not tell your wife **** about it. If she asks tell her to mind her own damn business. You sharing your life is something she has to earn.

Hey maybe one of these nights go check out the local bar. Meet some new people. Sounds much better to me than obsessing about tracking what my wife is doing. I mean if she wants to go meet a different man it's not like I can stop her. Women are free now they are not your property. Your wife is not your property she is only there by choice. And office affairs are super exciting! Especially if the hubby then dives deep into obsessing about her. I mean my gosh what women hasn't had some school girl fantasy about two men fighting over her? So don't fight. I mean if you want to fight over a girl can you at least pick a girl who isn't an old barren hag?

And hey maybe divorce her. You don't need proof of squat. We do no fault divorce now. You can divorce her because you think she's being a selfish ***** and that's it. It doesn't matter if you have proof of an affair, or you don't, in court. It makes no difference. The only reason to find out is for some sick twisted need in your head and who cares about that? Trust your gut. And your gut is busy telling you that this middle aged gal thinks she can treat you like crap and you just stand there and take it. So take your damn life back. Go get that gym membership and start lifting. It will only take a month or two before you're standing in front of the mirror with your shirt off, flexing, thinking, "my goodness I"m awesome". Start focusing on the only person you actually have control over. YOU. Stop this obsessing with your wife. You do not get to control her.


----------



## JayPau

Thank you to all of you who have shared your experiences, insights and advice. It means a lot to me. All of you are being very helpful at time I really need it. I have put a plan of action together and here it is:

I am going to purchase at least two voice activated recorders. Place one in our large living room where my wife texts away and the other in her purse if possible. Any recommendations on brands and model numbers?

A software to monitor her phone, everything on her phone. I'm concerned this might backfire if something goes wrong, but I feel it's a chance I have to take at this point in time. A second software to recover the entire history of her phone to see how long this nonsense has been going on. 

I have spoken with two separate PI's. I am meeting with one of them tomorrow to sign docs and hand over a retainer. I'm hoping to use the info from monitoring her phone to help the PI know of possible meeting times and places. 

If anything is revealed, I will then speak with divorce lawyers to protect me and my my kids. 

In all honesty, I hate having to do all of this, but I understand all of this is necessary to bring about the truth. I want the truth!


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

JayPau said:


> Thank you to all of you who have shared your experiences, insights and advice. It means a lot to me. All of you are being very helpful at time I really need it. I have put a plan of action together and here it is:
> 
> I am going to purchase at least two voice activated recorders. Place one in our large living room where my wife texts away and the other in her purse if possible. Any recommendations on brands and model numbers?
> 
> A software to monitor her phone, everything on her phone. I'm concerned this might backfire if something goes wrong, but I feel it's a chance I have to take at this point in time. A second software to recover the entire history of her phone to see how long this nonsense has been going on.
> 
> I have spoken with two separate PI's. I am meeting with one of them tomorrow to sign docs and hand over a retainer. I'm hoping to use the info from monitoring her phone to help the PI know of possible meeting times and places.
> 
> If anything is revealed, I will then speak with divorce lawyers to protect me and my my kids.
> 
> In all honesty, I hate having to do all of this, but I understand all of this is necessary to bring about the truth. I want the truth!


Well good luck with all of that. How about while you do all of this stuff you do some of the stuff I suggested? At least get a gym membership you can take your anger out on the iron.

And lets say they find nothing? What then? Do you ignore your gut? Stop trusting yourself?


----------



## JayPau

rustytheboyrobot said:


> Well good luck with all of that. How about while you do all of this stuff you do some of the stuff I suggested? At least get a gym membership you can take your anger out on the iron.
> 
> And lets say they find nothing? What then? Do you ignore your gut? Stop trusting yourself?


ership

I exercise a lot so I do not need a gym membership. Bars? Meh! If nothing is revealed, it does not prove my gut feeling is necessarily wrong. It only proves she has not been caught. I would not say I'm angry. If anything I feel rejected, I lost my lover and best friend. It's quite lonely right now.


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> Is she salary or hourly. If hourly, any irregularities in pay or hours worked that doesn't match up to when she was there? Does she accrue vacation? If she does, you should look closely at her sick / vacation time to see if it adds up.
> 
> If salary though, I think they can leave for an appointment and unless it is significant, it doesn't count against sick or vacation.
> 
> Does she bring lunch?
> 
> Are you there in the morning when she gets ready? If there is a day that she is wearing sexy underwear to work, obviously that is a day to watch closely.


She's on salary, and rarely brings a home lunch. Pretty soon I won't need to watch what she's wearing if I know exactly what she's planning on doing. This is where the phone monitoring comes into play


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

JayPau said:


> Thank you to all of you who have shared your experiences, insights and advice. It means a lot to me. All of you are being very helpful at time I really need it. I have put a plan of action together and here it is:
> 
> I am going to purchase at least two voice activated recorders. Place one in our large living room where my wife texts away and the other in her purse if possible. Any recommendations on brands and model numbers?
> 
> A software to monitor her phone, everything on her phone. I'm concerned this might backfire if something goes wrong, but I feel it's a chance I have to take at this point in time. A second software to recover the entire history of her phone to see how long this nonsense has been going on.
> 
> I have spoken with two separate PI's. I am meeting with one of them tomorrow to sign docs and hand over a retainer. I'm hoping to use the info from monitoring her phone to help the PI know of possible meeting times and places.
> 
> If anything is revealed, I will then speak with divorce lawyers to protect me and my my kids.
> 
> In all honesty, I hate having to do all of this, but I understand all of this is necessary to bring about the truth. I want the truth!


To be safe pay cash to the PI so if by some chance she looks at bank statements she won’t see the check image. Stealth is a must.


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

JayPau said:


> ership
> 
> I exercise a lot so I do not need a gym membership. Bars? Meh! If nothing is revealed, it does not prove my gut feeling is necessarily wrong. It only proves she has not been caught. I would not say I'm angry. If anything I feel rejected, I lost my lover and best friend. It's quite lonely right now.


One things I have realized and found over the years is that men tend to build their internal identity over what they do. The whole men are human-doings bit. And facing the end of what you have done, for so long, isn't a transition from one part of your life into another but the death of who you are, and hoping you can be reborn, to wake up again, somehow, as nothing. And have to build an entire new identity over doing an entire new thing.

It's not true. There is a lot more to you than what you do. There is what you enjoy. There is how you feel. There is happiness just at watching the sun rise. Happiness in running your toes in grass. If you can perhaps go be for awhile. You are still there, you are still who you always have been, you are still the same man that you have always loved. Do not let yourself define you, through her. You aren't a husband and a lover, you are a man who exists, who feels, who laughs and who cries, maybe sobs at times, who has been a husband and a lover.

I still suggest you try to focus on yourself. And that you never again stop.


----------



## JayPau

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> To be safe pay cash to the PI so if by some chance she looks at bank statements she won’t see the check image. Stealth is a must.


Yes! I have the cash for that very reason.


----------



## JayPau

rustytheboyrobot said:


> One things I have realized and found over the years is that men tend to build their internal identity over what they do. The whole men are human-doings bit. And facing the end of what you have done, for so long, isn't a transition from one part of your life into another but the death of who you are, and hoping you can be reborn, to wake up again, somehow, as nothing. And have to build an entire new identity over doing an entire new thing.
> 
> It's not true. There is a lot more to you than what you do. There is what you enjoy. There is how you feel. There is happiness just at watching the sun rise. Happiness in running your toes in grass. If you can perhaps go be for awhile. You are still there, you are still who you always have been, you are still the same man that you have always loved. Do not let yourself define you, through her. You aren't a husband and a lover, you are a man who exists, who feels, who laughs and who cries, maybe sobs at times, who has been a husband and a lover.
> 
> I still suggest you try to focus on yourself. And that you never again stop.


thank you for that! very encouraging


----------



## CantBelieveThis

JayPau said:


> Thank you to all of you who have shared your experiences, insights and advice. It means a lot to me. All of you are being very helpful at time I really need it. I have put a plan of action together and here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to purchase at least two voice activated recorders. Place one in our large living room where my wife texts away and the other in her purse if possible. Any recommendations on brands and model numbers?
> 
> 
> 
> A software to monitor her phone, everything on her phone. I'm concerned this might backfire if something goes wrong, but I feel it's a chance I have to take at this point in time. A second software to recover the entire history of her phone to see how long this nonsense has been going on.
> 
> 
> 
> I have spoken with two separate PI's. I am meeting with one of them tomorrow to sign docs and hand over a retainer. I'm hoping to use the info from monitoring her phone to help the PI know of possible meeting times and places.
> 
> 
> 
> If anything is revealed, I will then speak with divorce lawyers to protect me and my my kids.
> 
> 
> 
> In all honesty, I hate having to do all of this, but I understand all of this is necessary to bring about the truth. I want the truth!


What? A VAR on her purse? Not sure that's a good idea she might likely find it.
And yes careful w cell monitoring software, most require you to root the phone and also suck the hell out of the battery to where she might notice, it can also slow the phone down....is it Android or iPhone? 
I do a lot of infosec for a living, your better off getting her phone while she sleeps and use something like the link below, it will grab a ton of stuff even if erased...also if she uses Google/gmail get a hold of access to her account and go to myactivity.google.com and you can find a ton of app usage there that can tell you a lot.

https://www.mobiledit.com/forensic-express


----------



## re16

A sony VAR at bestbuy is good.

Easy to go in and buy one instead of order online and potentially have her know about it.

If you get some cheap headphones and plug it in and cut them off with just the jack in, it will stop any strange beeps or low battery warnings which could alert someone to its presence. I would put the VAR in her car, maybe one in the house if there is time she is home alone.

Watchout with the monitoring software, some of the bank apps are hip to this and logging in to say bank of america, will alert the phone user to potential unsafe software on her phone.

I've used the free version of dr fone with success, but you would need the phone for some amount of time. It can pull up deleted texts. You can see them on the software, but need to pay to pull them out, you can just print screen instead.


----------



## Cynthia

FalCod said:


> I use Project Fi. I don't see it anywhere. It's not important to me, so I'm not going to fuss over it. I assumed that when everyone switched to free and unlimited calls and texts, they would drop the reporting of individual calls and texts.


I have TMobile and can view a record of every call and text made on each line. We have unlimited talk/text/data.


----------



## TDSC60

JayPau said:


> Thank you to all of you who have shared your experiences, insights and advice. It means a lot to me. All of you are being very helpful at time I really need it. I have put a plan of action together and here it is:
> 
> I am going to purchase at least two voice activated recorders. Place one in our large living room where my wife texts away and *the other in her purse if possible*. Any recommendations on brands and model numbers?
> 
> A software to monitor her phone, everything on her phone. I'm concerned this might backfire if something goes wrong, but I feel it's a chance I have to take at this point in time. A second software to recover the entire history of her phone to see how long this nonsense has been going on.
> 
> *I have spoken with two separate PI's. I am meeting with one of them tomorrow to sign docs and hand over a retainer. I'm hoping to use the info from monitoring her phone to help the PI know of possible meeting times and places. *
> 
> If anything is revealed, I will then speak with divorce lawyers to protect me and my my kids.
> 
> In all honesty, I hate having to do all of this, but I understand all of this is necessary to bring about the truth. I want the truth!


Don't put a VAR in the purse. Better to put the second one in her car. Cheaters really like to call the affair partner and talk to them on the drive to and from work. Or she may talk to a girlfriend about her affair when she feels safe in the car. If nothing is caught in a week or so, then you might consider the purse, but that has a high chance of being found.

Ask the PI if he has someone to help with the phone. Most do. They can at least recommend what app or program you can install on her phone that they have experience with and will work.


----------



## lucy999

She will find the VAR in her purse. I know every pen, errant paper clip, and rubber band in the dark recesses of my purse. She will find it. Don't.


----------



## JayPau

CantBelieveThis said:


> What? A VAR on her purse? Not sure that's a good idea she might likely find it.
> And yes careful w cell monitoring software, most require you to root the phone and also suck the hell out of the battery to where she might notice, it can also slow the phone down....is it Android or iPhone?
> I do a lot of infosec for a living, your better off getting her phone while she sleeps and use something like the link below, it will grab a ton of stuff even if erased...also if she uses Google/gmail get a hold of access to her account and go to myactivity.google.com and you can find a ton of app usage there that can tell you a lot.
> 
> https://www.mobiledit.com/forensic-express


I know a VAR on the purse sounds crazy, but it would provide me with a lot of info. A VAR in my wife's car seems useless at this time. She has an iPhone. I suppose she might have a gmail/google account that I'm not aware of. In fact, I've been wondering if she has another or multiple email accounts that I don't know about. My router log is showing google stuff, but I know my daughter has a gmail account. I've also seen roadrunner and linkedin sites on my router.


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> A sony VAR at bestbuy is good.
> 
> Easy to go in and buy one instead of order online and potentially have her know about it.
> 
> If you get some cheap headphones and plug it in and cut them off with just the jack in, it will stop any strange beeps or low battery warnings which could alert someone to its presence. I would put the VAR in her car, maybe one in the house if there is time she is home alone.
> 
> Watchout with the monitoring software, some of the bank apps are hip to this and logging in to say bank of america, will alert the phone user to potential unsafe software on her phone.
> 
> I've used the free version of dr fone with success, but you would need the phone for some amount of time. It can pull up deleted texts. You can see them on the software, but need to pay to pull them out, you can just print screen instead.


Thanks!


----------



## Cynthia

JayPau said:


> I am going to purchase at least two voice activated recorders. Place one in our large living room where my wife texts away and* the other in her purse if possible*. Any recommendations on brands and model numbers?


What on earth! If you put it in her purse she will find it before she leaves the house. If someone put anything in my purse, I'd notice almost immediately and I don't think I'm alone in that. Do not put it in her purse.

Edit to add: This is the recorder that is most frequently recommended here. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BOXNSRY/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## faithfulman

For a VAR, I recommend the Sony ICD-PX470 - it sells for around $50 on Amazon and has one day delivery.

Make sure you purchase a ton of good triple-a batteries and 32GB SD cards for extra storage. You'll want to record to those cards, not the internal card.

Put the VARS where she talks privately, I don't think her texting spot in the living room is appropriate. Her purse is definitely no good. 

If you put the VAR in her car, turn on the "low cut" noise filter (I think that's the right one) to filter out some engine noise.

For phone recovery software, I recommend you use "Fonelab" - don't use "Dr. Fone" it sucks.

You can recover deleted texts, pics, and videos, and much more including deleted "cheater app" messages, like Whatsapp, Viber, Kik, etc.

Good luck brother.


----------



## JayPau

CynthiaDe said:


> I have TMobile and can view a record of every call and text made on each line. We have unlimited talk/text/data.


We have the same thing with TMoible. We have iPhones, but I can only see sent/received text messages if my wife is having a convo with a person who has an android phone. If she is texting another iPhone it goes to data and it is not listed under texts online or on the bills. Convos with Androids show the date, time and and cell number of texts. iPhone to iPhone convos, nothing is listed. It's almost as if a text convo never took place. Annoying!


----------



## JayPau

lucy999 said:


> She will find the VAR in her purse. I know every pen, errant paper clip, and rubber band in the dark recesses of my purse. She will find it. Don't.


Thanks, I won't do it


----------



## Cynthia

JayPau said:


> We have the same thing with TMoible. We have iPhones, but I can only see sent/received text messages if my wife is having a convo with a person who has an android phone. If she is texting another iPhone it goes to data and it is not listed under texts online or on the bills. Convos with Androids show the date, time and and cell number of texts. iPhone to iPhone convos, nothing is listed. It's almost as if a text convo never took place. Annoying!


Strange. I just went into my account to see if that's true for us and it's not. We have numerous lines with both android and iPhones. The call/text history shows up for all of them.


----------



## Tasorundo

It depends on if you are using imessage or not. It isn't just texting an iphone, both parties have to enable imessage for it to go via data.


----------



## JayPau

CynthiaDe said:


> Strange. I just went into my account to see if that's true for us and it's not. We have numerous lines with both android and iPhones. The call/text history shows up for all of them.


Where are you seeing that? My wife and I both have iPhones, when we text each other I don't see anything listed under the text usage at the TMobile site. What am I missing here? As I said earlier, a text convo between an iPhone and Android will show everything except the content of the texts at TMobile.


----------



## JayPau

Tasorundo said:


> It depends on if you are using imessage or not. It isn't just texting an iphone, both parties have to enable imessage for it to go via data.


Ok, now that makes sense.


----------



## Cynthia

JayPau said:


> Where are you seeing that? My wife and I both have iPhones, when we text each other I don't see anything listed under the text usage at the TMobile site. What am I missing here? As I said earlier, a text convo between an iPhone and Android will show everything except the content of the texts at TMobile.


In MyTMobile, there should be a list of the phones/people on your plan. Click the name, then click "check usage details." You'll see "Usage Overview." Scroll down and click the ^ at Messages. Click on the name and a list of messages will come up. It should include all messages. Not content, just: Date & Time, Destination, Number, Direction, and Type. 
Mine definitely shows android and iPhone messages.


----------



## jyotisharma2859

Yeah, I think she's hiding something. Talk to her daily at least for an hour to discuss her daily routine. Tell her how much you love her. Keep an eye on her without treating her badly.


----------



## dubsey

JayPau said:


> We have the same thing with TMoible. We have iPhones, but I can only see sent/received text messages if my wife is having a convo with a person who has an android phone. If she is texting another iPhone it goes to data and it is not listed under texts online or on the bills. Convos with Androids show the date, time and and cell number of texts. iPhone to iPhone convos, nothing is listed. It's almost as if a text convo never took place. Annoying!


Do you also have an iPad? You can set up the iPad to iMessage from and it'll get copies of all her iMessages. You just need access to her phone so you can delete the notification when it gets set up.


----------



## re16

faithfulman said:


> For phone recovery software, I recommend you use "Fonelab" - don't use "Dr. Fone" it sucks.


What happens when you use Dr. Fone? I have a version that is two years old, and have used it on iphone and it pulled up all kinds of lost / deleted information. It did take probably around two hours to fully scan the texts and photos of a 64bg iphone.


----------



## re16

dubsey said:


> Do you also have an iPad? You can set up the iPad to iMessage from and it'll get copies of all her iMessages. You just need access to her phone so you can delete the notification when it gets set up.


This is a good idea. Just be aware that the notification doesn't come immediately and sometimes sends an email. You would need to have her apple ID to do this.

It can also be on old iphone with no Tmobile account that you enable wifi on and put in her applie id into messaging.


----------



## TDSC60

Where is Gus when you need him? He is the phone guru.


----------



## Chuck71

Put the other VAR in the bathroom under towels or something similar. From what I have read from TAM,

cheaters love using the car....and the bathroom. Anytime a phone was open and unlocked for ages

but suddenly guarded and locked, that is a sure sign. They're most likely meeting during lunch.

That would explain the lace panties and her upward spike in giving oral.


----------



## Decorum

If you put it in the car, double velcro it under the driver seat.

The bathroom is tricky, if she does the laundry and goes for towels she may find it .

My Bathroom wall mirror cabinet is above head height, and has a nice lip on top. We dont store anything up there, (gets a bit dusty). That might be a good spot.

Somewhere she is unlikely to go month to month.

Also if you have two, you can swap it out with the one in the car, so the car is always ready, and you dont have to put it back after listening.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

If u want something solid for the car this is hard to beat, I have used it, has it's own sim card and line plus GPS, but most importantly it has a microsd card and can record like a VAR, and you can even call the number and it will answer letting you listen live whilst also recording....its all controlled via phone app or SMS messages, it plugs right into car OBD port which is usually hidden. Out sight, so no need to worry About batteries or anything 

Look it up Amazon sells them

ATian Plug & play OBDII Vehicle GPS Tracker


----------



## CantBelieveThis

now this little guy has a GPS, SIM card, microsd and USB powered, as well as microphone and can do live recording, listen live, very accurate GNSS location (multiple constellations) plus WAAS, Barometer, Temp , Humidity , gyroscope and accelerometer (so like if she is banging someone the ACCEL/GYRO can show you movement, direction, etc with predictable accuracy of what a sexual act would be like), pretty incredible for something slightly bigger than a quarter....
these you wont find easily and its something I have partly rigged and coded together, but you can find them out there from China...am working on adding BT and Wifi interface now. I am also working on an OBD wifi adapter piece that it will connect to over wifi and already prototyped it, and can tell when doors open and close, engine sensors, tons of data (so if someone gets in her car you can detect passenger door open and also the weight on the seat for the airbag trigger sensor)
This stuff is getting amazing, dont get me wrong am not using all this or doing all this to catch my W cheating, is just part of what I do for a living, an IoT is very hot right now and exploding with microdevices everywhere and the technology is growing incredibly, almost everything in my home is completely automated and controlled.


----------



## StillSearching

JayPau said:


> Thanks, I won't do it


When you find out don't be this guy.


----------



## Hoosier

OP.... sorry that you are here. I like everyone else here, do not know if she is having an affair. But it is not looking good. (Read my story under my original name "Hoosier") More than anything its the hair on the back of your neck I take as the biggest sign. Just to add. My wife left after 30 year marriage, and what I now know was at least the 2nd affair she had while we were married. During the one prior to the one I found out about (hope that makes sense) the sex we had was amazing! At home, in the car, in the shower..new positions, openings.wow! I remember telling a friend, "I dont know what happened, but hope it keeps on happening!" Found out, she was having great sex and either practicing for him, or just turned on by him and in overdrive. She was 51 at the time. 


Dont let your wifer know you are on to her. Put the device in her car, read weightlifers link for how to do it. Follow the advice of the people here. Best of luck.
Hoosier


----------



## WorkingWife

jyotisharma2859 said:


> Yeah, I think she's hiding something. Talk to her daily at least for an hour to discuss her daily routine. Tell her how much you love her. Keep an eye on her without treating her badly.


This is a good idea. OP should be sure to spend a lot of quality time with her. This should help if she is getting distant for *any *reason.


----------



## re16

One more thought, go to find my friends and add her, when you have her phone, because you have to ok it on her phone.

Now you have a GPS on her as well as her car in case she is leaving the office.

(she may have already done this to you so she can tell where you are - be careful).


----------



## 3Xnocharm

WorkingWife said:


> This is a good idea. OP should be sure to spend a lot of quality time with her. This should help if she is getting distant for *any *reason.


:lol:


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

dubsey said:


> Do you also have an iPad? You can set up the iPad to iMessage from and it'll get copies of all her iMessages. You just need access to her phone so you can delete the notification when it gets set up.


Careful... two factor authentication will notification nail you on every device tied to iCloud.

Especially if all your tech is tied to the Apple ecosystem.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

re16 said:


> One more thought, go to find my friends and add her, when you have her phone, because you have to ok it on her phone.
> 
> Now you have a GPS on her as well as her car in case she is leaving the office.
> 
> (she may have already done this to you so she can tell where you are - be careful).


FYI... this will also send an alert.


----------



## dubsey

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Careful... two factor authentication will notification nail you on every device tied to iCloud.
> 
> Especially if all your tech is tied to the Apple ecosystem.


its why I said he needs access to her phone. I'd test it out with his phone first, then swap it out to pick up her iMessages after she's gone to sleep, etc.

Also, turn off notifications on the old iPhone/iPad, etc.


----------



## Chaparral

Pen var

https://www.amazon.com/Recorder-Act...r&qid=1551221232&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1


----------



## JayPau

A lot great ideas and advice, thanks! 

Here's an update. 

I met with a PI, signed a contract and handed over a 1K retainer in cash. 

I'm heading over to Best Buy to purchase two Sony ICD-PX470 VAR. Thank you, faithful man! One for wife's car, the other probably in our master bath. I found a nice place to hide it and she cannot reach it.

I'm waiting for a window so I can use Mobiledit on my wife's phone. Thank you, CantBelieveThis! Based on the info given in this thread, I'm probably not going to go with any spyware on her phone. Things could certainly go bad. We have an older iPad, but it's not linked to her iCloud account. When I get her iphone for the Mobiledit, I will try to set up the iPad to her iCloud to head off any notifications. 

Finally, I have not had sex with my wife in more than two days. I plan on using excuses not to have anymore sex with her. While I'm not showing any signs of any STD, that does not mean I'm free and clear of any. I need to go to a clinic and get tested. I will not do this with my primary care doctor.


----------



## Marc878

Are there other people in the workplace other than her and her boss?

Workplace affairs are very hard to prove. The reason I ask is if there are other people there then they'd have to take it offsite which will make it a lot easier for the PI.

Get a semen detection kit. Low cost and you'll find out quickly.


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

There's no reason to "prove" an affair. We live in no fault divorce now. The only reason to "prove" an affair is for your own benefit so you don't feel crazy. If you already know what's going on, and you do, then the rest of this is a charade.

Why not confront her? With only your gut feeling? And let your gut feelings run? Why not just confront her? All this PI secret agent larping stuff just seems so ridiculous to me. Why don't you just sit her down, say, "my wife, I know that you are being unfaithful to me. I don't know to what extent, and I really do not want to know. But I know. You now have two choices and only two choices. You stop, immediately, no matter what that means, no matter if that means you quit your job tonight. Or I am no longer your husband. And even if you see me here at the end of the day you will not see a husband here. I will leave you, and I will meet a new woman, younger than you, better than you in every way sans one. We will have no memories together. So you now have to choose. You will choose our family, and choose to have me, without the passion of a new relationship, but with the steadiness of a life of memories, or you will choose to chase your dragon. And I will choose to chase a new life for myself as well."

Really why is everyone here so against confrontation? Because of gas lighting? Do you all really think yourselves so weak that you will fold into cuckoldry and cheating and being the second choice _of your own spouse_ that you can not say, no, I do not believe you?

Every day you do not confront her is another day she continues larping a romance novel in a fake life. I really just can't believe that a guy actually goes to this effort to spy on his own wife. You guys didn't actually spy on your own wife did you? I mean when I was confronted with my ex wife's affair I just took her phone right out of her hand while she was texting in the den, where she had "privacy", just walked in and took her phone away from her. Saw the truth. Left and divorced her.

It was still the worst thing that ever has happened in my life. But why do all this bizarre spying PI larp? Why not just wait until she's off in whatever room she thinks she has privacy in, walk in, take her phone from her hand, go into the bathroom, lock the door, and then just read it?

If by some magical coincidence she's just like chatting with the gals about playing words with friends and whose winning, or what baby shower going on for who, or whatever, right! Then who care? You could just walk out and say, "you are acting so bizarre, that I'm going to dump your ass to the curb, leave you with the children, give you some money, and go hook up with a thirty year old divorcee who actually appreciates me"

Seriously all these threads in CWI are just [so incredibly bizarre]

I don't want to be insulating as in my own very real thread all those many many years ago I had many men come accuse me of not being real, but I mean is this actually real?

You are actually going to go full on spy on your wife mode? Rather than just confront her directly and let her eyes tell you the truth? Or just walk in and take her phone right out of her hand, push her down, and lock yourself in the bathroom to know the truth?

And for what? What is the goal with this spy larping?


----------



## Marc878

For the most part almost all cheaters lie like hell. 

Just ask her? Naive thinking. 

I've seen this more times than I can remember. You'll normally get "we're just friends" probably the biggest lie told. Once you've tipped your hand it just goes deeper underground.

Most like OP want the truth. You'll only get what you can prove in most all cases. Nothing more.


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

Marc878 said:


> For the most part almost all cheaters lie like hell.
> 
> Just ask her? Naive thinking.
> 
> I've seen this more times than I can remember. You'll normally get "we're just friends" probably the biggest lie told. Once you've tipped your hand it just goes deeper underground.
> 
> Most like OP want the truth. You'll only get what you can prove in most all cases. Nothing more.


You don't think you can see the truth in her eyes? In her actions?

And who would she just be friends with? For our OP here? What's she going to say? "Oh my lovely husband I met this guy at work. He's like sriously uggo ugly, like elephant man ugly, oh and plus I never talk about him or let you meet him because uhhhhh oh he has a wife who is like crazy jealous and if she knew he was just making _friends_ she would freak out! You have nothing to worry about! Here let me suck your weewee"?

Then how about our hero here just say, "unacceptable"

Really in what world is it acceptable for your SPOUSE to have opposite sex friends? I don't think so. Tell her cooooool let's all hang out as families since we are families! Let's get that wife right on over here, with their kids, as well! And then just hit on his wife relentlessly?

Or just check out as I already described? For what reason is there for your OWN WIFE to stop chasing you?

Why not just call her out on all her shady behavior? Are you seriously claiming that we men are too stupid to see through the bull**** lies? When they are right in your fkin face?!! I don't think so!

And why not just take her phone when she's in some room hiding? Just walk right in, take her phone out of her hands, and walk out and lock yourself in the bathroom. The end.

You don't even need to do this at this point. What right does she have to make her own husband feel this way? This is divorce worthy behavior already. Just file divorce now. Tell her, "I don't feel loved by you anymore. I want a divorce"

This whole PI larp thing that's encouraged here? WHY? It's not necessary. Trust yourself men. *You already know the truth.*

Accept the truth.

And tell that woman, this was a great decade, a great two decades. But I agree things sometimes get boring, and there are fun times ahead. I always wanted to go see the grand canyon with a girl fifteen years younger than you. Don't worry babe, you'll get custody of the kids (THANK GOD) so I'll have time to go!

PEACE OUT


----------



## Cynthia

rustytheboyrobot said:


> You don't think you can see the truth in her eyes? In her actions?


No. If we could see the truth in another's eyes, there would be no need for lie detectors. If she is lying (and he isn't sure), she is hiding the truth from him and he can't determine that by looking in her eyes. Sorry. It's not that easy. Sometimes it is, but mostly it's not. Heck, I couldn't even tell when my kids lied to me, as children will do from time to time. They always seemed sincere to me unless I had incontrovertible evidence and knew for sure.

Most people do not want to blow up their marriages when they aren't sure what's going on. Taking a chance and accusing someone is going to make an innocent spouse furious and create a rift in the marriage that now the suspicious spouse created. That's why it's important to be careful. Yes, most of us here think she's cheating, but what if she's not! It's better to find out for sure before making a giant leap.

However, there is another path besides all the cloak and dagger. That is to lay out to a spouse what is creating a rift that would cause him to think she is cheating. Not telling her that he thinks she's cheating, but expressing dissatisfaction and making it clear that these things are a problem and need to be resolved. In a healthy marriage both partners are working to make the marriage the best it can be. If she is unwilling to do that, then something is obviously wrong and he should tell her that and tell her that's he's not going to tolerate it, but is going to make changes based on her unwillingness to take his needs seriously. I believe that kind of conversation should always come before spying. The outcome may tell you whether spying is even necessary if your spouse either apologizes and makes an effort to turn things around or comes unglued and you know that your gut was right.


----------



## re16

rustytheboyrobot said:


> There's no reason to "prove" an affair. We live in no fault divorce now. The only reason to "prove" an affair is for your own benefit so you don't feel crazy. If you already know what's going on, and you do, then the rest of this is a charade.
> 
> Why not confront her? With only your gut feeling? And let your gut feelings run? Why not just confront her? All this PI secret agent larping stuff just seems so ridiculous to me. Why don't you just sit her down, say, "my wife, I know that you are being unfaithful to me. I don't know to what extent, and I really do not want to know. But I know. You now have two choices and only two choices. You stop, immediately, no matter what that means, no matter if that means you quit your job tonight. Or I am no longer your husband. And even if you see me here at the end of the day you will not see a husband here. I will leave you, and I will meet a new woman, younger than you, better than you in every way sans one. We will have no memories together. So you now have to choose. You will choose our family, and choose to have me, without the passion of a new relationship, but with the steadiness of a life of memories, or you will choose to chase your dragon. And I will choose to chase a new life for myself as well."
> 
> Really why is everyone here so against confrontation? Because of gas lighting? Do you all really think yourselves so weak that you will fold into cuckoldry and cheating and being the second choice _of your own spouse_ that you can not say, no, I do not believe you?
> 
> Every day you do not confront her is another day she continues larping a romance novel in a fake life. I really just can't believe that a guy actually goes to this effort to spy on his own wife. You guys didn't actually spy on your own wife did you? I mean when I was confronted with my ex wife's affair I just took her phone right out of her hand while she was texting in the den, where she had "privacy", just walked in and took her phone away from her. Saw the truth. Left and divorced her.
> 
> It was still the worst thing that ever has happened in my life. But why do all this bizarre spying PI larp? Why not just wait until she's off in whatever room she thinks she has privacy in, walk in, take her phone from her hand, go into the bathroom, lock the door, and then just read it?
> 
> If by some magical coincidence she's just like chatting with the gals about playing words with friends and whose winning, or what baby shower going on for who, or whatever, right! Then who care? You could just walk out and say, "you are acting so bizarre, that I'm going to dump your ass to the curb, leave you with the children, give you some money, and go hook up with a thirty year old divorcee who actually appreciates me"
> 
> Seriously all these threads in CWI are just [so incredibly bizarre]
> 
> I don't want to be insulating as in my own very real thread all those many many years ago I had many men come accuse me of not being real, but I mean is this actually real?
> 
> You are actually going to go full on spy on your wife mode? Rather than just confront her directly and let her eyes tell you the truth? Or just walk in and take her phone right out of her hand, push her down, and lock yourself in the bathroom to know the truth?
> 
> And for what? What is the goal with this spy larping?



Cheaters lie. She will deny and gaslight. Then the affair will be more hidden or stopped and he may never know whether she was actually cheating and to what extent.

For most of us, it is not an option to accept that our spouse had a physical affair, so telling her to stop isn't helpful. If she is in affair, it is over. But why divorce if she isn't? We want to either confirm or deny the affair is happening.

Confronting early is a mistake, almost every time, unless the spouse admits it, which is very rare if you read all the stories here.


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

CynthiaDe said:


> No. If we could see the truth in another's eyes, there would be no need for lie detectors. If she is lying (and he isn't sure), she is hiding the truth from him and he can't determine that by looking in her eyes. Sorry. It's not that easy. Sometimes it is, but mostly it's not. Heck, I couldn't even tell when my kids lied to me, as children will do from time to time. They always seemed sincere to me unless I had incontrovertible evidence and knew for sure.
> 
> Most people do not want to blow up their marriages when they aren't sure what's going on. Taking a chance and accusing someone is going to make an innocent spouse furious and create a rift in the marriage that now the suspicious spouse created. That's why it's important to be careful. Yes, most of us here think she's cheating, but what if she's not! It's better to find out for sure before making a giant leap.
> 
> However, there is another path besides all the cloak and dagger. That is to lay out to a spouse what is creating a rift that would cause him to think she is cheating. Not telling her that he thinks she's cheating, but expressing dissatisfaction and making it clear that these things are a problem and need to be resolved. In a healthy marriage both partners are working to make the marriage the best it can be. If she is unwilling to do that, then something is obviously wrong and he should tell her that and tell her that's he's not going to tolerate it, but is going to make changes based on her unwillingness to take his needs seriously. I believe that kind of conversation should always come before spying. The outcome may tell you whether spying is even necessary if your spouse either apologizes and makes an effort to turn things around or comes unglued and you know that your gut was right.


I mean this guy is married to a woman who is basically his own age. So she's in her FORTIES! HER FORTIES! Why is this even a question at this point? Who care if she's actually cheating or not at this point? He feels like she is, he should have confronted her IMMEDIATELY. He should have had half a foot out the door the moment he felt like she was no longer into him. Really why not? He says he's already kept his body up with regular exercise. He can just replace her.

She's causing him to believe that she is not invested into the relationship. She's acting shady. That's enough. He should be heading out the door right now. He should be planning his new single life right now. Sure in a healthy marriage both parties work towards the end goal of the one, the only _one_ most of us will ever have. She's not though. Does it really matter if she's been inhaling more penis? She checked out clearly. Why larp as a PI? Why look for "proof"? His own feelings are the proof. HOW HE FEELS MATTERS. He FEELS like it's over already. That's enough. All this time spent larping as a secret agent is time he could be spending dating new women. If his "wife" wants him then she will start chasing him. She can't start chasing him while he's running after her.

What proof does he need? A picture of his "wife" with another guys **** in her mouth? I don't think so. Men's feelings matter. He FEELS like she is betraying him. That alone is enough. He should already have one foot out the door. He should do what I said many posts back, he should be assuming the life of a single man, ready to give her all the moneys he will be giving her anyway, as he builds his life as as a single man whose wife does not make him FEEL like he matters. That's it. HIS FEELINGS MATTER


----------



## Marc878

rustytheboyrobot said:


> You don't think you can see the truth in her eyes? In her actions?
> 
> I've managed as many as 750 people at a time. All kinds and all kinds of scenarios. People can look you square in the eye and lie like hell and unless you had the proof you could never tell
> 
> 
> Really in what world is it acceptable for your SPOUSE to have opposite sex friends? I don't think so. Tell her cooooool let's all hang out as families since we are families! Let's get that wife right on over here, with their kids, as well! And then just hit on his wife relentlessly?
> 
> Or just check out as I already described? For what reason is there for your OWN WIFE to stop chasing you?
> 
> Most want the truth. A lot even have trouble making a decision even with it.
> 
> Why not just call her out on all her shady behavior? Are you seriously claiming that we men are too stupid to see through the bull**** lies? When they are right in your fkin face?!! I don't think so!
> 
> Most often it won't get you a thing and most can't/won't pull that trigger
> 
> And why not just take her phone when she's in some room hiding? Just walk right in, take her phone out of her hands, and walk out and lock yourself in the bathroom. The end.
> 
> Most delete the obvious or end up with a restraining order for domestic violence.
> 
> You don't even need to do this at this point. What right does she have to make her own husband feel this way? This is divorce worthy behavior already. Just file divorce now. Tell her, "I don't feel loved by you anymore. I want a divorce"
> 
> This whole PI larp thing that's encouraged here? WHY? It's not necessary. Trust yourself men. *You already know the truth.*
> 
> Accept the truth.
> 
> Most are in denial until they see it in black and white
> 
> And tell that woman, this was a great decade, a great two decades. But I agree things sometimes get boring, and there are fun times ahead. I always wanted to go see the grand canyon with a girl fifteen years younger than you. Don't worry babe, you'll get custody of the kids (THANK GOD) so I'll have time to go!
> 
> Most don't just give up their children like you did. I read your threads.
> 
> PEACE OUT


There is the ideal world where the stars are in alignment with the heavens in harmony and then there's the real world that is never clear or transparent.


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## rustytheboyrobot

re16 said:


> Cheaters lie. She will deny and gaslight. Then the affair will be more hidden or stopped and he may never know whether she was actually cheating and to what extent.
> 
> For most of us, it is not an option to accept that our spouse had a physical affair, so telling her to stop isn't helpful. If she is in affair, it is over. But why divorce if she isn't? We want to either confirm or deny the affair is happening.
> 
> Confronting early is a mistake, almost every time, unless the spouse admits it, which is very rare if you read all the stories here.


So you are claiming that men are simply too stupid to know the truth from her eyes? From her REAL behavior? That his FEELINGS don't' matter? That he should discard his FEELINGS because he can't objectively prove to a jury trial that his wife has been unfaithful? He must act like a robot who only accepts picture proof? He can't just say, NO, NO NO NO, *MY FEELINGS MATTER*. No bro. His feelings matter. If he feels that his wife is no longer his devoted, then he is fully in the right to simply check out. There is NO NEED to 'PROVE' that his "wife" has been unfaithful. How he feels is enough. How a man feels is enough for a man to act. Men are NOT human doings, only by choice. He can indeed CHOOSE to act on his own feelings because HIS FEELINGS MATTER. She makes him feel very bad about himself. There is no reason any man should put up with a woman who makes him feel so badly, so poorly, that he will larp as a secret agent. It's over boys. By the time you are larping a secret agent? It's over.

He should confront her immediately. And he should know, JayPau you need to know, how you feel MATTERS.

How you feel when you watch a sunrise, how you feel when you hug your daughters (and nothing can take that away even divorce, TRUST ME I KNOW), how you feel when you sit on the porch in shorts as the snow falls, how you FEEL when your WIFE comes home and you don't even know who the f*ck is there, how you FEEL MATTERS!

He has no need to larp as some secret agent this is RIDICULOUS! THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY RIDICULOUS!

Confront her. Look her in the eyes. Be honest with yourself, be true to your own feelings, and confront her. You will see the truth. The truth you already know anyway.


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## farsidejunky

While I can't agree with everything that Rusty is saying, he does have a valid point.

How often do we see a betrayed spouse that has clear evidence of infidelity, yet insist it is still not enough...and grasping onto that excuse for dear life because they're scared to death that they'll actually have to do something with it.

OP, you've received some very good advice. That said, don't kill yourself finding proof. Figure out what exactly your deal-breakers are, and as soon as you even see a hint of it, pull the proverbial trigger.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## OutofRetirement

From what you've posted, IF she is cheating, she's doing it at work.

I personally would hold off on the VAR until the PI gets a crack at it for a week or two. Either that, or I'd use the VAR in your own car for a day or two to see if anything happens that would make your wife aware of it, like beeps or other sounds.

If you noticed it in September, it probably started a month or two or three before that. Think about any guy she talked about over the summer that she stopped talking about.

In my opinion, in a mortgage broker's office, she wouldn't be able to hide a workplace affair from her other coworkers. I've seen women who cheat at work with security guards, janitors, delivery people. The only way to do that is either (1) before work (2) after work or (3) during lunch. So, the PI has an easy job, in my opinion. Show up every morning, every lunch hour, and every night. Now if you know your wife's office hours, and she is coming in that time in the morning and leaving that time at night, then you know she's having the affair at lunch. Very easy for a PI to catch. The cheaters typically do it in the car (must be his) parked in an empty lot or a park, or his house, or yours, or a hotel.

That's why I say to let the PI just do it for a week or two. Why risk her finding your VAR or other snooping devices. It won't take more than a week (unless he is on vacation) if you use a PI, and you'll get nice pictures and videos to boot. If the PI strikes out after two weeks, then roll out your own devices and software and whatever.

The thing is, you can read the threads here in this forum, and you can read about 100 of guys who post just like you, same circumstances, and I can't remember it ever being a nice surprise. Let's hope yours will be the first.


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## rustytheboyrobot

Marc878 said:


> There is the ideal world where the stars are in alignment with the heavens in harmony and then there's the real world that is never clear or transparent.


I like how you say it like I didn't suffer through all of it.


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## Marc878

How often do you see someone pull the trigger on what they think is going on? 

Rarely.

Most want concrete proof. Even then a lot will wallow after.

While in these cases you don't need proof because it's not a court of law. I think it's human nature to want to hope it isn't what they think it is and hang onto the slightest thread of hope. Denial is strong.

The need to know is very strong.


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## Marc878

rustytheboyrobot said:


> I like how you say it like I didn't suffer through all of it.


Nope but your expectations around what others can/should do are unrealistic.


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## 3Xnocharm

I’m in agreement with OutofRetirement, let the PI do the job for a bit before planting your VARs. 

Great job so far sir. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3Xnocharm

Double post


----------



## Cynthia

rustytheboyrobot said:


> I mean this guy is married to a woman who is basically his own age. So she's in her FORTIES! HER FORTIES! Why is this even a question at this point?


Wow. This is super shallow. Many women past 40 have a lot to offer and are less encumbered than younger women are. But older women can be intimidating, because they know what they want and aren't as likely to kowtow to a man than their younger counterparts are, so I can see how that would be difficult for some men to handle.


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## rustytheboyrobot

.....


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## turnera

rustytheboyrobot said:


> I mean this guy is married to a woman who is basically his own age. So she's in her FORTIES! HER FORTIES! Why is this even a question at this point?


Excuse me?


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## turnera

CynthiaDe said:


> Wow. This is super shallow. Many women past 40 have a lot to offer and are less encumbered than younger women are. But older women can be intimidating, because they know what they want and aren't as likely to kowtow to a man than their younger counterparts are, so I can see how that would be difficult for some men to handle.


Reminder that after rusty immediately divorced his wife, he went out and married a girl half his age.


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## MattMatt

turnera said:


> Reminder that after rusty immediately divorced his wife, he went out and married a girl half his age.


Who he treats quite badly, IMO.


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## ConanHub

CynthiaDe said:


> Wow. This is super shallow. Many women past 40 have a lot to offer and are less encumbered than younger women are. But older women can be intimidating, because they know what they want and aren't as likely to kowtow to a man than their younger counterparts are, so I can see how that would be difficult for some men to handle.


I'm kinda confused as to his point.


----------



## Decorum

rustytheboyrobot said:


> I mean this guy is married to a woman who is basically his own age. So she's in her FORTIES! HER FORTIES! Why is this even a question at this point? Who care if she's actually cheating or not at this point?





turnera said:


> Excuse me?





turnera said:


> Reminder that after rusty immediately divorced his wife, he went out and married a girl half his age.


Oh I get it, lol, this is a chance for him to "trade up" according to Rustytheboyrobot.

A get out of marriage free as the "good guy" card.

Where people are concerned, one size does not always fit all, so to speak. Robots not withstanding.


----------



## Chuck71

RustyRobot.....funny you say that. When I was in my twenties, I did not date females in their twenties.

Too many games, drama, BS. Pop always said to date women over 35 if you're looking for a nice

relationship but not anything heavy. In my early-mid 20s, I did that. Had time of my life.

Much less BS, games, drama. Nothing like ringing her doorbell and she opens it up in lingerie 

saying she was just thinking about me. No strings attached, as in if I do this, I want him to do this.

There were a couple....if they could have kids......we just might have........


----------



## OnTheFly

CynthiaDe said:


> rustytheboyrobot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean this guy is married to a woman who is basically his own age. So she's in her FORTIES! HER FORTIES! Why is this even a question at this point?
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. This is super shallow. Many women past 40 have a lot to offer and are less encumbered than younger women are. But older women can be intimidating, because they know what they want and aren't as likely to kowtow to a man than their younger counterparts are, so I can see how that would be difficult for some men to handle.
Click to expand...

 A few short years ago a post like this would have me saying, “you go girl!”. Now, it’s laughable, sadly so. 

#EyesWideOpen


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## Chaparral

Thread jack wasting my time.


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## JayPau

What happened?


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## re16

JayPau said:


> What happened?


People bickering back and forth about things that don't have anything to do with helping you.

What happened should be a question we're asking you lol.


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## re16

When does PI check back in?


----------



## JayPau

I thought some more last night. Actually, I did not sleep much last night. I'm going with the PI and will hold off on the VAR until I know how well it works. I'm going to test it in my car and in our master bathroom. I have not been able to get enough time to snatch my wife's phone to place spyware on it. I also want to use Mobiledit on her iphone but again I need more time. The windows available right now are less than 15 minutes. 

The PI asked me when my wife eats lunch. I could not give him an exact time because she eats lunch anywhere from noon to 2:30p. I guess it depends on how busy she is, or it could be she's working around the schedule of the guy she's playing around with. I asked the PI to start surveilling her about a half hour before she starts work and again from 11:30a to 2:30p. This will begin tomorrow. The PI told me to make note of everything she is wearing and other things she might be carrying with her. The PI said he will be communicating with during the surveillance.


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## re16

Who leaves for work first in the AM and are you home when she gets home?


----------



## personofinterest

turnera said:


> Reminder that after rusty immediately divorced his wife, he went out and married a girl half his age.


Who is supposedly "dumb." Although the more I read out of him...the less.......intelligent HE seems.

OP, just stay the course. All the sane people on TAM are giving you the same advice.


----------



## oldshirt

JayPau said:


> The PI told me to make note of everything she is wearing and other things she might be carrying with her. The PI said he will be communicating with during the surveillance.


My guess is WWs are like teenage girls and walk out of the house wearing one thing but change into something completely different (and much more sexy and revealing) after they are out of the house.


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## TDSC60

Play around with the VAR to get the settings the way that works best, then get it in her car. Velcro it under the seat. Some say under the driver seat,

Cheaters love to make plans and talk when they feel secure in the car alone. Some also use a car as the site of physical encounters if the parking area is remote or uncrowded.


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## JayPau

re16 said:


> Who leaves for work first in the AM and are you home when she gets home?


My wife leaves for work about 15 to 20 minutes before me. I get home shortly before she does.


----------



## Robert22205

I agree with your plan to use a PI. It may take a while for the PI to obtain evidence of a PA.

A common mistake is to confront too soon before you have solid evidence. Otherwise she'll just say they're lunch friends or you're crazy.

I hope the PI can identify the name of the OM. If he's married, you'll need to inform is wife for her safety as well as to blow up his world. And/Or if he's a supervisor he's at risk of getting fired. 

Have you checked her credit cards or cash withdrawals for suspicious transactions that may be hotel related? 
Have you spoken with an attorney about how you would be impacted by divorce?
If you're having trouble with anxiety or sleeping, I suggest visiting your doctor and telling him exactly what you told us. 

Before you confront her make sure there's a VAR in her car. 
After the confrontation she will immediately call the OM (probably from the car).

You are not the first to walk this path and you are not alone.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

JayPau said:


> I thought some more last night. Actually, I did not sleep much last night. I'm going with the PI and will hold off on the VAR until I know how well it works. I'm going to test it in my car and in our master bathroom. I have not been able to get enough time to snatch my wife's phone to place spyware on it. I also want to use Mobiledit on her iphone but again I need more time. The windows available right now are less than 15 minutes.
> 
> The PI asked me when my wife eats lunch. I could not give him an exact time because she eats lunch anywhere from noon to 2:30p. I guess it depends on how busy she is, or it could be she's working around the schedule of the guy she's playing around with. I asked the PI to start surveilling her about a half hour before she starts work and again from 11:30a to 2:30p. This will begin tomorrow. The PI told me to make note of everything she is wearing and other things she might be carrying with her. The PI said he will be communicating with during the surveillance.


This is where a GPS on the car pays off.


----------



## OutofRetirement

JayPau said:


> I thought some more last night. Actually, I did not sleep much last night. I'm going with the PI and will hold off on the VAR until I know how well it works. I'm going to test it in my car and in our master bathroom. I have not been able to get enough time to snatch my wife's phone to place spyware on it. I also want to use Mobiledit on her iphone but again I need more time. The windows available right now are less than 15 minutes.
> 
> The PI asked me when my wife eats lunch. I could not give him an exact time because she eats lunch anywhere from noon to 2:30p. I guess it depends on how busy she is, or it could be she's working around the schedule of the guy she's playing around with. I asked the PI to start surveilling her about a half hour before she starts work and again from 11:30a to 2:30p. This will begin tomorrow. The PI told me to make note of everything she is wearing and other things she might be carrying with her. The PI said he will be communicating with during the surveillance.


Don't sweat it. You will get your evidence soon enough. Even if you did nothing, cheaters get reckless and sloppy. Love does that to people. Makes them take risks.

If you can see when your wife wears her newer sexier lingerie, that's when she'll be meeting up. I'm too lazy to look back, but didn't you say you caught her in a lie having lunch at 11 am? Lunch-time cheaters need longer lunch hours, so they go a little earlier and leave a little later. Is her boss a man? Because the boss man usually can have meetings outside the office and bring people with him for those meetings. And can have longer lunches without anyone caring about it. But no two ways about it, coworkers are going to know your wife is up to something. She will be flirtier, sexier, both in mannerisms, word, clothes, and grooming. One of my pet peeves is the cheater usually goes the extra mile, even so much as losing weight, exercising, on top of all the grooming and sexier clothes, for the affair partner. You will know the affair is over when she stops caring so much about her appearance.

Listen, though, you really don't yet know for sure she is cheating. You have a lot of circumstantial evidence. Some of the things she's done, the lies you've caught her in, they're unacceptable regardless.

Try to stay calm and understand you only control you. Hope for the best. This will play out soon enough, one way or the other. You're a good guy, you're going to wind up in a good spot no matter what happens.


----------



## Robert22205

Your current situation is soul destroying due to the uncertainty. Often (when you least expect it) you may feel an overwhelming need to confront her.
Many (maybe most) do just that - and regret it. It just drags out the lying, minimizing and blame shifting for weeks/months. 

That's why we advise VAR in advance and/or confiscating her phone. 

I suggest speaking with your doctor about your situation and request something to help with anxiety and sleep.
To keep you strong and your mind clear.


----------



## re16

Does she use gmail? On a computer she would normally login from, go google.com/history , it will show all her browser search history for any searches while she was logged in (including private browsing). Go to google.com/maps/timeline and it will show her location history based on where she logs in from (including her phone). If either of these features are off, you can turn them on.


----------



## TJW

Robert22205 said:


> the lying, minimizing and blame shifting for weeks/months.


This continues even after your prima facie evidence becomes irrefutable fact. They will use ANYTHING. Anything you can't prove, they will "spin" to justify themselves blame you. Do yourself a favor. Don't believe any of it. It's all LIES......

Have prepared answers, for every possible thing you can think of, which place blame squarely upon her head. Adultery is a choice which is made unilaterally by the adulterer, and has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the betrayed spouse. Make her own it.

And, refuse to accept any consequences which come to her for her choices.


----------



## personofinterest

> Adultery is a choice which is made unilaterally by the adulterer, and has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the betrayed spouse.


This should be on a bronzed statue.


----------



## JayPau

Not much of an update here. The PI did surveillance for about an hour this morning. He watched my wife park her car, then powder her nose, then text away. He says she texted for at least 10 minutes and there was no indication she made or received a call. She then went into her office. She was wearing the same outfit as she was when she left the house this morning. Same purse, too. Something of note is that the PI did not see her boss entering or leaving the office. We are wondering if he didn't go to work or if he is coming in later. The PI will go back again at 11:15a today to do more surveillance.


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> Not much of an update here. The PI did surveillance for about an hour this morning. He watched my wife park her car, then powder her nose, then text away. He says she texted for at least 10 minutes and there was no indication she made or received a call. She then went into her office. She was wearing the same outfit as she was when she left the house this morning. Same purse, too. Something of note is that the PI did not see her boss entering or leaving the office. We are wondering if he didn't go to work or if he is coming in later. The PI will go back again at 11:15a today to do more surveillance.


Will those texts be there or will they be deleted if you look? Does she have any texting apps (whatsapp snapchat etc)


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> Will those texts be there or will they be deleted if you look? Does she have any texting apps (whatsapp snapchat etc)


Not sure. I need a window so I can link an older iPad to her iCloud account. This would let me know if she's deleting some of her text convos with her iPhone app. I cannot confirm if she has any texting apps either. There's a way she's doing all of the texting, tho. I cannot rule out a second SIM card.


----------



## TDSC60

JayPau said:


> Not sure. I need a window so I can link an older iPad to her iCloud account. This would let me know if she's deleting some of her text convos with her iPhone app. I cannot confirm if she has any texting apps either. There's a way she's doing all of the texting, tho. I cannot rule out a second SIM card.


Not sure...........but I don't think iPhones has an easily removable SIM card. Plus even if they do, the SIM card has to be active with a number assigned to it and hooked to a provider.

Much easier to get a burner phone.


----------



## JayPau

TDSC60 said:


> Not sure...........but I don't think iPhones has an easily removable SIM card. Plus even if they do, the SIM card has to be active with a number assigned to it and hooked to a provider.
> 
> Much easier to get a burner phone.


Perhaps, but I have not detected a burner phone linked to the bluetooth in her car. I also have not detected a burner phone on our router at home.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

JayPau said:


> Perhaps, but I have not detected a burner phone linked to the bluetooth in her car. I also have not detected a burner phone on our router at home.


A burner smart phone can easily go undetected... straight cell data only, BT and WiFi stays off.

No signature.


----------



## Ceegee

JayPau said:


> Not sure. I need a window so I can link an older iPad to her iCloud account. This would let me know if she's deleting some of her text convos with her iPhone app. I cannot confirm if she has any texting apps either. There's a way she's doing all of the texting, tho. I cannot rule out a second SIM card.




My WW and her POSOm created new gmail accounts. 

They emailed and used Google conversations. 

I guessed her password and accessed on her tablet. 

After I found out and contacted his wife, she and I communicated on words with friends. Don’t know why, just paranoid I guess. 

I was where you are now about 6 or 7 years ago. 

What is your wife’s family like? What’s her dating history? Can you give us details about how you met and how your relationship started?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cynthia

TJW said:


> This continues even after your prima facie evidence becomes irrefutable fact. They will use ANYTHING. Anything you can't prove, they will "spin" to justify themselves blame you. Do yourself a favor. Don't believe any of it. It's all LIES......
> 
> Have prepared answers, for every possible thing you can think of, which place blame squarely upon her head. Adultery is a choice which is made unilaterally by the adulterer, and has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the betrayed spouse. Make her own it.
> 
> And, refuse to accept any consequences which come to her for her choices.


If you know someone is a cheater, there is no point in trying to reason with that person about the situation.
Having prepared answers is a waste of time. You don't need to convince her of anything and any conversation needs to be about how the only one who needs convincing is you. What you need convincing of is that this behavior is not only going to stop, but be replaced with extreme contrition and serious work. Anything else is not worth listening to and results in instant consequences, such as leaving the room, filing divorce, or whatever else works for the betrayed spouse to help move in a forward and healthier direction.

For a lot of betrayed spouses, it doesn't matter if their spouse is contrite or not. They are done. In that case, no conversation is necessary except to tell the cheater to pack up her stuff and hit the road, which may actually work to eject the cheater. More likely the cheater will dig in because they don't want to give up the life they thought they had. Eventually the divorce will go through and separation will occur whether the cheater wants it or not.


----------



## Tasorundo

Anything happen in the lunch session?


----------



## JayPau

Yesterday did not turn anything up that screams an affair. It turns out her boss was out of the office yesterday. My wife ate lunch with a lady she knows well who works in an adjacent office. The texting was still constant and at one point the PI says she appeared upset while walking back to her office and texting more. The PI is going to confirm if the boss returns to the office today. If he does, we are back on with the surveillance.


----------



## Ceegee

JayPau said:


> Yesterday did not turn anything up that screams an affair. It turns out her boss was out of the office yesterday. My wife ate lunch with a lady she knows well who works in an adjacent office. The texting was still constant and at one point the PI says she appeared upset while walking back to her office and texting more. The PI is going to confirm if the boss returns to the office today. If he does, we are back on with the surveillance.




How do you know she’s texting?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt

I doubt if anyone gets it on every single day with their AP. it may take a number of days or even a few weeks for the definitive smoking gun or pictures of her coming out of a motel buttoning up her blouse. 

I think the VAR in her car will provide what you are looking for as quickly as anything.


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## oldshirt

If you insist on needing definitive photographic proof from the PI, then it is a common tactic to set up a little sting operation with the PI to where you are supposedly out of town or away for a very specified period of time.

For example if you were to tell your wife you have to go out of town for a meeting ___ night and you will be gone from 5 PM _____ until 9am _______ .

Then have all your VARs and everything set up before you tell her and be prepared to check her phones and emails and other devices starting within minutes of informing her you'll be out of town. The PI can help you crack into her accounts and have surveillance of her communications. 

Once you inform her of being out of town, she will be contacting the AP to see if they can hook up while youre gone. She will likely even talk to him so have VARs secured and ready to go immediately. 

The reason to give specific departure and return times is so that their is a specific window for the PI to watch her. 

If you can intercept a specific meeting time and place from the VAR that will help immensely. 

This kind of sting operation is part and parcel of the PI's business so the PI can help you set it up and have everything in place.


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## JayPau

the PI saw her texting a lot yesterday, even while she was eating with her lady friend. Of course, the lady could not see what she was texting. Maybe there's a way for the PI to get close enough to see who/what my wife is texting. I'm having trouble capturing audio loud enough to make out what is being said while testing the VAR. 

I'm trying my best to be patient about this whole crazy process. It's tough, really tough acting like nothing is wrong.


----------



## Chuck71

Ceegee said:


> My WW and her POSOm created new gmail accounts.
> 
> They emailed and used Google conversations.
> 
> I guessed her password and accessed on her tablet.
> 
> After I found out and contacted his wife, she and I communicated on words with friends. Don’t know why, just paranoid I guess.
> 
> I was where you are now about 6 or 7 years ago.
> 
> What is your wife’s family like? What’s her dating history? Can you give us details about how you met and how your relationship started?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Welcome back!


----------



## oldshirt

JayPau said:


> I'm trying my best to be patient about this whole crazy process. It's tough, really tough acting like nothing is wrong.


Your impatience is understandable but you acting oblivious and like business is usual is critical in getting her to keep her guard down. 

The moment you start asking questions or poking around in her business, she will cover her tracks better and take it underground. 

Cheaters usually have contingency plans and prefabricated cover stories and alternate means for communication for when a BS starts getting suspicious or is poking around. 

If you need definitive proof of her cheating from a PI before you see the light, then playing dumb and acting as usual is your most valuable tool at this point. 

If you are having serious trouble with patience and keeping up the act on your end, then see my previous post about setting up the sting operation and discuss setting that up with the PI so you get proof sooner rather than playing the long game.


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## re16

Do you not have access to her phone at all? Does she not give you the pin? Just act like you are on an important work conference call after hours when with her, tell her your phone died and you need to use hers to get back on the call. Have her unlock it and then you walk away with it.


----------



## sa58

Just another viewpoint here,

Since you really have no confirmed proof
and your wife has not been coming home 
late or working strange hours. Your gut tells
you something is wrong and several red flags
then maybe this is an Ea that has not gone PA.

She may be very strongly attracted to someone at 
work since change in attitude, her paying more attention
to how she looks etc. They may be attracted to her also 
but they both may be married and have a lot to lose. Her 
boss for instance. There may even be flirting,and some sort
of physical contact at work. No one at work is going to tell
you any of this either, but they may suspect. Office gossip 
runs wild sometimes.

Her texting a lot can be them wanting to but just haven't gotten
the chance yet. If your gut feeling keeps screaming and you need
solid proof you may have to give them that chance. Just as oldshirt 
said. I have seen people who are attracted to each other this way before.
They get attracted to each other but have a lot to lose and it can go on
for a long time. It can drive you crazy not really knowing but suspecting.
She may even think you have noticed something and become defensive.

I am not saying set someone up but give her the chance and see what happens.
Unless you can get the texts, even then it may show only an EA affair. Talk with 
your PI and see what he thinks. He probably has a lot of experience with this.
If it is someone high up in the company they have a tremendous amount to lose.
Probably married as well, and losing their job they will want to be sure not to get 
caught. May have something to do with her boss if she was upset and he didn't 
come in to work. She didn't get to see him that day. 

Just my viewpoint


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> It's tough, really tough acting like nothing is wrong.


You are doing good so far, stick with it. Even if you get some info, bring it here before confronting. She will gaslight and make you doubt until you have irrefutable proof.


----------



## oldshirt

@JayPau

As you go through this process, remember that you do not need to prove to her that she is cheating, she already knows what she's doing.

And you are not a criminal proscecutor that has to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

You only need enough so that you see the light yourself. 

In a way Robot is right, all you really need to do is walk into the room while she's texting away, grab the phone and you will know by what you see right in front of you as well as by her reaction.

You only need to know enough so that you know in your heart.

You do not need to prove it to her or anyone else.


----------



## oldshirt

.....and you do not need a confession or full disclosure from her.

Most cheaters go to their grave never confessing the full extent of their activies. 

You'll never know 100% of what has gone on behind closed doors. 

You just need enough so that you know enough to take definative action for yourself.


----------



## sa58

She is only going to confess to what you know 
and can prove and nothing else Then the rest is up to you
Stay, go, or what ever.


----------



## Copycat

I wonder: if it all comes down to being able to see her phone when she is texting, can you install a couple of high-resolution cameras or use a telescope to spy on her from your garden (I also thought that PIs might have one in their arsenal –*a telescope or a high-resolution camera). Also, I wonder why did you specifically mention her boss twice in your earlier comments? Do you have a reason to suspect him? Is he the only male in the office?

Earlier you have mentioned that you have an access to her phone for short intervals of time. Have you inspected the apps she has on her phone (e.g. calculator2 and other apps that mimic regular iPhone apps)?

If your VAR works fine and is in place, I would consider find a reason to "travel" during this weekend to give yourself some break from pretending and to give her a chance to slip by engaging in a phone conversation with her texting partner.


----------



## Ceegee

JayPau said:


> the PI saw her texting a lot yesterday, even while she was eating with her lady friend. Of course, the lady could not see what she was texting. Maybe there's a way for the PI to get close enough to see who/what my wife is texting. I'm having trouble capturing audio loud enough to make out what is being said while testing the VAR.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying my best to be patient about this whole crazy process. It's tough, really tough acting like nothing is wrong.




It may seem trivial but it sounds like you are assuming she’s texting because she is hammering away at a phone. 

Maybe she’s emailing work related messages. 

Maybe she’s messaging friends on Facebook. 

Hell, maybe she’s on TAM. 

I am more curious about your history with her. 

Her familial history. 

Past indicators of current behavior. 

Most WW’s have a tinge of personality disorder if not full blown. 

Also, what is it like in the home? Like right now? 

What is she doing? 

What are you doing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JayPau

oldshirt said:


> Your impatience is understandable but you acting oblivious and like business is usual is critical in getting her to keep her guard down.
> 
> The moment you start asking questions or poking around in her business, she will cover her tracks better and take it underground.
> 
> Cheaters usually have contingency plans and prefabricated cover stories and alternate means for communication for when a BS starts getting suspicious or is poking around.
> 
> If you need definitive proof of her cheating from a PI before you see the light, then playing dumb and acting as usual is your most valuable tool at this point.
> 
> If you are having serious trouble with patience and keeping up the act on your end, then see my previous post about setting up the sting operation and discuss setting that up with the PI so you get proof sooner rather than playing the long game.


I have decided to play dumb, it's just tough. I'm at a point where I just want to see what the PI unravels, if anything. I'm just nervous about taking any other action right now because I'm afraid I'll tip my wife off. I don't want to do that.


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> Do you not have access to her phone at all? Does she not give you the pin? Just act like you are on an important work conference call after hours when with her, tell her your phone died and you need to use hers to get back on the call. Have her unlock it and then you walk away with it.


I do have her pin. The problem with that idea is I rarely take conference calls after hours. I'm also good about charging my phone before it dies. She knows both of these things.


----------



## JayPau

sa58 said:


> Just another viewpoint here,
> 
> Since you really have no confirmed proof
> and your wife has not been coming home
> late or working strange hours. Your gut tells
> you something is wrong and several red flags
> then maybe this is an Ea that has not gone PA.
> 
> She may be very strongly attracted to someone at
> work since change in attitude, her paying more attention
> to how she looks etc. They may be attracted to her also
> but they both may be married and have a lot to lose. Her
> boss for instance. There may even be flirting,and some sort
> of physical contact at work. No one at work is going to tell
> you any of this either, but they may suspect. Office gossip
> runs wild sometimes.
> 
> Her texting a lot can be them wanting to but just haven't gotten
> the chance yet. If your gut feeling keeps screaming and you need
> solid proof you may have to give them that chance. Just as oldshirt
> said. I have seen people who are attracted to each other this way before.
> They get attracted to each other but have a lot to lose and it can go on
> for a long time. It can drive you crazy not really knowing but suspecting.
> She may even think you have noticed something and become defensive.
> 
> I am not saying set someone up but give her the chance and see what happens.
> Unless you can get the texts, even then it may show only an EA affair. Talk with
> your PI and see what he thinks. He probably has a lot of experience with this.
> If it is someone high up in the company they have a tremendous amount to lose.
> Probably married as well, and losing their job they will want to be sure not to get
> caught. May have something to do with her boss if she was upset and he didn't
> come in to work. She didn't get to see him that day.
> 
> Just my viewpoint


Very interesting! There's only one male in her office and he's the boss. In all honesty, I did/do not really think it's him. I suspect it's a guy at another branch with her company, or an employee at a similar business nearby. I originally thought this was an online affair of sorts, but now with the way she buys new clothes and spends so much time grooming herself it must be someone who is nearby her.


----------



## JayPau

Copycat said:


> I wonder: if it all comes down to being able to see her phone when she is texting, can you install a couple of high-resolution cameras or use a telescope to spy on her from your garden (I also thought that PIs might have one in their arsenal –*a telescope or a high-resolution camera). Also, I wonder why did you specifically mention her boss twice in your earlier comments? Do you have a reason to suspect him? Is he the only male in the office?
> 
> Earlier you have mentioned that you have an access to her phone for short intervals of time. Have you inspected the apps she has on her phone (e.g. calculator2 and other apps that mimic regular iPhone apps)?
> 
> If your VAR works fine and is in place, I would consider find a reason to "travel" during this weekend to give yourself some break from pretending and to give her a chance to slip by engaging in a phone conversation with her texting partner.


I have not seen any unusual apps on her phone, but maybe I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I'm not well-versed in hiding or changing the appearance of apps. Your idea with Var and traveling might happen if the PI doesn't turn up enough.


----------



## JayPau

Ceegee said:


> It may seem trivial but it sounds like you are assuming she’s texting because she is hammering away at a phone.
> 
> Maybe she’s emailing work related messages.
> 
> Maybe she’s messaging friends on Facebook.
> 
> Hell, maybe she’s on TAM.
> 
> I am more curious about your history with her.
> 
> Her familial history.
> 
> Past indicators of current behavior.
> 
> Most WW’s have a tinge of personality disorder if not full blown.
> 
> Also, what is it like in the home? Like right now?
> 
> What is she doing?
> 
> What are you doing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure she could be texting or emailing and it's work related. The difference now is she doesn't do that in front of me or our kids anymore. Its when we're not around , or in another room

Facebook, I never knew she had an account until all of this stuff started to happen. If she is messaging friends, that's fine. No reason to be secretive about it.

She is the youngest kid. She tells me she always had to sneak around and lie because she was so fearful of upsetting her parents and siblings. She is living the same way right now. It's almost like a defense mechanism. 

She was raised in a Christian household, though she does not consider herself one. She does nor drink, smoke, or use drugs. She's a bit introverted. Today, I actually think she's cunning. 

We met in the mid 90s in a college class. At first there was no physical attraction towards each other. Friends for a period of time and eventually we fell in love. Oddly, it was our differences that made us interested in each other. We began to do everything together: the beach, hiking, concerts, comedy clubs, cooking, movies, carnivals and sex. We could talk about anything. We were very open with each. 

I'm not an expert one mental health, but I don't see any indicators which suggests my wife might has a personality disorder.

Right now she spends most of her free time at home by herself, while I'm with our kids watching movies, grilling. She uses her phone, but when one of us comes around she almost always quickly sets it face side down.

We don't talk as much and we spend less time together. Sure we all eat together, but it's very awkward.


----------



## Jaded1

JayPau said:


> I have *not seen any unusual apps on her phone*, but maybe I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I'm not well-versed in hiding or changing the appearance of apps. Your idea with Var and traveling might happen if the PI doesn't turn up enough.



I know a couple of people that communicate covertly using Twitter DM's. Facebook, WhatsApp and many others can be used for illicit communications.

Do not be shocked if her means of communication is right there in plain sight.


----------



## JayPau

Jaded1 said:


> I know a couple of people that communicate covertly using Twitter DM's. Facebook, WhatsApp and many others can be used for illicit communications.
> 
> Do not be shocked if her means of communication is right there in plain sight.


Ok, thanks! Do you know if Linkedin or 365 Microsoft Office has private messaging, too?


----------



## JayPau

Jaded1 said:


> Do not be shocked if her means of communication is right there in plain sight.


Please tell me more. I have noticed my wife checking her "notifications center" page right before she quickly puts her iPhone down. Anything to that maybe?


----------



## Tasorundo

I think you can set aps to not pop up notifications on the lock screen, but they still show up on the notifications center. That way her phone would not light up when it was set down, but could be getting notifications from whatever ap she is using.

Thats the first thing that I think of.

I suggest the next time you can get to her phone and unlock it, check the notifications center and see what is there. Could be a clue to what ap she is using.


----------



## Marc878

JayPau said:


> Ok, thanks! Do you know if Linkedin or 365 Microsoft Office has private messaging, too?


Linkedin does.


----------



## Tobyboy

If she’s got an iPhone, and you can get into it, from the “home” page swipe right and you’ll see a *Siri apps suggestions* which will be her recently used apps. Try it on your phone.


----------



## OutofRetirement

Based on my personal experiences and reading, in workplace affairs, it's the boss about half the time. I personally think people don't think it's the boss because he's an old geezer, married, out of shape, etc., but power, even if the guy is a big fish in a little pond. There was a thread here from a guy I think called Scuba Steve, look at his thread, about a wife having an affair with an old boss. A situation like yours, not knowing who it is, I put the boss at the top of the suspect list.

*Why don't you think it's the boss?*

You're doing well. Keep ignoring her behavior. You'll get your evidence soon enough.

As far as apps, almost everything has a chat feature. Plus, a novice cheater could get tips from the affair partner who is practiced (though I doubt that in your case).

I knew a guy who caught his wife through chats on words with friends game. One woman was on some type of alternate "life" game, one where you can be someone else, marry another player, and this one actually met up with lover online. I'm just trying to show some of the wide variety of stuff you can do online, and cheat that way if that's what you want.

*Have you looked at your wife's browser history?* Some cheaters will search for affair-related info.

Do you see her Facebook? I'm sorry I've forgotten, but you not even knowing she had Facebook is really strange. *Do you know who her friends are on Facebook? How often she posts? Likes?*


----------



## Decorum

JayPau,
Dont think yourself into distraction, it will in all likelyhood pop pretty soon. 

They usually do once the betrayed spouse starts seriously looking.

Dont tip her off.

It will be worth it to be patient.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

JayPau said:


> Ok, thanks! Do you know if Linkedin or 365 Microsoft Office has private messaging, too?


LinkedIn has messaging . 365 Office includes Lync which I have seen as a corporate IM service. I have seen Lync integrated with Skype - another app which has messaging. 

Others: Hangouts, Instagram, Kik, IMO, SnapChat, Signal, WhatsApp, Messenger, Telegram - come to my mind.


There are a uncountable number of apps that have messaging. Games are a good example. People can message each other in real time with Words with Friend. There are so many more. 

Then all dating apps like Tinder, Bumble, OK Cupid, Match etc .

You need to look at every app she has ever installed via Apple Store and find out what it does. I am not a Apple person so I don't know how to get that.

I mention Apple store because it is not unheard of for straying partners to constantly uninstall/reinstall messaging apps or dating apps to keep their secrets from prying eyes.


----------



## MattMatt

JayPau said:


> Ok, thanks! Do you know if Linkedin or 365 Microsoft Office has private messaging, too?


You can communicate with LinkedIn. Don't know about 365


----------



## colingrant

JayPau said:


> Very interesting! There's only one male in her office and he's the boss. *In all honesty, I did/do not really think it's him.* I suspect it's a guy at another branch with her company, or an employee at a similar business nearby. I originally thought this was an online affair of sorts, but now with the way she buys new clothes and spends so much time grooming herself it must be someone who is nearby her.


I don't know your reason for eliminating the boss as an AP candidate, but don't sleep on him. Cheaters often affair down. Sometimes so far down, the actual AP is overlooked, just as you are doing. For as many women who affair with younger, handsome, wealthy or fit men, just as many or perhaps more, affair with men you would say after seeing them, "you've got to be f'n kidding me". Bosses in particular are frequent culprits, as they often have a working relationship or mentor/mentee situation going on with the WS where lots of communication and sometimes travel, is required. A savvy man knows when a woman is vulnerable and ripe. Those who aren't will work on them until they are. These people are called slime balls. 

A thread recently on this site, found a husband narrowing his wife's AP candidates to two people and was 90% certain it was candidate A, because of physical appearance, age and demeanor. BH had dismissed candidate B (his wife's boss) because of age being 25-30 years older than his wife, who according to him, was hot. I think it was through use of a VAR or his wife's confession, but candidate B, henceforth, affectionately referred to by BH and contributing posters, as 'grandpa', was the one nailing his wife, frequently. 

BH was incensed his x-wife (he divorced her) blew up a marriage and family for a man old enough to be her dad, or close to it. This is not out of the ordinary. I recall reading of two WW having affairs with janitors. Nothing shameful of being a janitor, but the husband couldn't get over the fact that the AP's in these cases had no redeeming qualities thought to be worthy of having a physical affair with their wives. I've read of prim and proper, conservative housewives affair-ing with drug users, former inmates and guys living in their parents basement. Consider any and every man of age as a possibility.


----------



## Decorum

colingrant said:


> I don't know your reason for eliminating the boss as an AP candidate, but don't sleep on him. Cheaters often affair down. Sometimes so far down, the actual AP is overlooked, just as you are doing. For as many women who affair with younger, handsome, wealthy or fit men, just as many or perhaps more, affair with men you would say after seeing them, "you've got to be f'n kidding me". Bosses in particular are frequent culprits, as they often have a working relationship or mentor/mentee situation going on with the WS where lots of communication and sometimes travel, is required. A savvy man knows when a woman is vulnerable and ripe. Those who aren't will work on them until they are. These people are called slime balls.
> 
> A thread recently on this site, found a husband narrowing his wife's AP candidates to two people and was 90% certain it was candidate A, because of physical appearance, age and demeanor. BH had dismissed candidate B (his wife's boss) because of age being 25-30 years older than his wife, who according to him, was hot. I think it was through use of a VAR or his wife's confession, but candidate B, henceforth, affectionately referred to by BH and contributing posters, as 'grandpa', was the one nailing his wife, frequently.
> 
> BH was incensed his x-wife (he divorced her) blew up a marriage and family for a man old enough to be her dad, or close to it. This is not out of the ordinary. I recall reading of two WW having affairs with janitors. Nothing shameful of being a janitor, but the husband couldn't get over the fact that the AP's in these cases had no redeeming qualities thought to be worthy of having a physical affair with their wives. I've read of prim and proper, conservative housewives affair-ing with drug users, former inmates and guys living in their parents basement. Consider any and every man of age as a possibility.


That might be a good thread for him to read. Anyone remember the name of the thread with grandpa in it?


----------



## OnTheFly

ScubaSteve?


----------



## Decorum

OnTheFly said:


> ScubaSteve?


Maybe so. That my be why I dont recognize it.


----------



## Talker67

JayPau said:


> Please tell me more. I have noticed my wife checking her "notifications center" page right before she quickly puts her iPhone down. Anything to that maybe?


its a clue.
you can get into her iphone settings, then notifications, and see which ones are turned on but the audio chime is turned off. That will give you a clue which messaging app she is using


----------



## oldshirt

colingrant said:


> . Consider any and every man of age as a possibility.


The rest of your post was spot-on, but read the newspaper for a couple days and there will be a news story about a young, pretty teacher with a handsome, ambitious husband, who gets caught screwing her 15 year old student.

Most notable is Pamela Smart who persuaded her 15 year old AP to kill her BH for her.

Point being, is you can't automatically assume that an AP is even of legal age.


----------



## JayPau

I have just detected a new Samsung device on my router. Could this be a TV or a Samsung phone? I ran a check on the device's MAC address but it does not specify which Samsung product. Any thoughts?


----------



## Andy1001

JayPau said:


> I have just detected a new Samsung device on my router. Could this be a TV or a Samsung phone? I ran a check on the device's MAC address but it does not specify which Samsung product. Any thoughts?


Try downloading an app called EMF Detector. 
If there is another phone in your house it may find it. 
It worked for me but another poster tried it and it didn’t work, but it’s free at least for one attempt.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

JayPau said:


> I have just detected a new Samsung device on my router. Could this be a TV or a Samsung phone? I ran a check on the device's MAC address but it does not specify which Samsung product. Any thoughts?


Install Wire shark and start watching traffic on the IP associated with that MAC. 

Google the Wire shark tutorials.


----------



## colingrant

Here's Scuba Steve's story and link. To save you time, listed below are his posts leading up to the AP being identified as the most unlikely person. The posts below are from around page 10-15 through page 50 of the 130 plus page thread.

Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating -
Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve 

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/413570-gut-feeling-my-wife-might-cheating.html
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
found out one of the numbers does belong to one of our bosses. I originally thought the number belonged to her direct boss. *It turns out the number belongs to one of the company execs. This guy is old, forget about being old enough to be her dad the guy is closer to her grandparents age. I can’t understand any of this. Part me can’t even believe it’s him. It just has to be someone else. This is ****ing crazy*
-------------------------------------
I’m done I can’t take this **** anymore. I just confronted her about everything. 

I’ve been searching our entire house looking for burner phone and trying to get ready for my trip. While searching our closet i looked inside her travel bag I found a box of condoms opened and with one missing. We haven’t used condoms since we been married. After finding the condoms I lost it and called her. I started to demand answer about what’s been going on. I know it wasn’t the smart move i just couldn’t keep it in anymore. She’s leaving work early so we can talk.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
Everything has turned to ****.

I never thought things would turn out this way. My wife came home, I demanded answer. First I asked her about the condoms. She claims she didn’t know who they belonged too and she didn’t know why or how an opened box of condoms got in her bag. I didn’t believe any of it started asking more questions about why was she gone for long periods of time, why is sleeping with her phone under pillow, who’s she talking to all the time. She kept talking but nothing she was saying was making in sense. We kept going around in circles, it wasn’t getting us anywhere. At point asked to see her phone. She refused so I went for her purse. She grabbed it and wouldn’t to let it go. We stared to scream at each other. She called me controlling, crazy and she couldn’t have a civil conversation with the way I was acting and she was leaving. I asked her where she was going but she brushed me off.
-------------------------------------
Trust me I didn't plan is out this way. I the plan was always to wait and have the P.I do his job, thats the reason why I hired him. I wasn't thinking straight and lost my head.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
The P.I is following her now. She at her moms with our daughter. The GPS also confirms this 

I’ve asked the P.I to send me the most recent call logs from my wife’s cell.

I can’t get the VAR it’s in her car still I won’t be able to get it out till tomorrow.

I will have to be careful about what I do at work. I don’t have any solid evidence to prove she having an affair with our boss. I'm going to do what I’ve should’ve done from the being and let the P.I do his job.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
Ok I originally believed her AP was her direct boss, we will call him OM 1. He’s the one she talked about constantly and knew all about his personal life. He’s a lot closer to our age and he’s a pretty good looking guy. He seemed like guy she would cheat with, it would make sense. The guys has always had a pretty open personality and likes to joke around. Maybe that’s how she came to know about all of his personal stuff. All evidence I currently have does not point to him as her AP. 

*OM2 is the grandpa. He’s head of her department. The evidence I have points to him as being the AP. Which is disgusting, I can’t comprehend it. Out of all guys she could have an affair with she picked him.* 

As for going to the HR or to his wife, that’s not a option right now. I don’t have to enough prove 1) who the other man is 2) prove that the affair took place. A call log and a box of condoms at best proves my wife is cheating but not with who. I have to carefully about how I play this. 

My wife is still at her mothers. She planned to come home this morning but given the weather I told her to stay. Which is fine I don’t want to see her right now.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
I've checked her credit card statements at least the cards that I know about. I've asked the P.I to check if she opened any new accounts.

My wife has sent a couple of text but I haven't read any.

I've checked and my wife hasn't been on any work related trips with OM2 but she did travel with OM1 last June.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
My wife and I have talked she’s on her way home with our daughter. It’s about a 30 min drive to our house. I’m not ready to talk to her yet, mostly because I don’t want to hear more of her lies. But the way I see it, it's better too get it over with now then wait and do it later.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
We’ve talked. She started off saying how much she loved me and our little family. Any problems we might have can be solved between us since our love is that strong. She spent a good 15 min saying BS like that. I cut her off and told her knew what was happening. After pressuring her for a minute she admitted to the affair and that condoms did belong to her. She claimed she was sorry and that it was a mistake. She promised it would never happen again. I made the mistake in thinking she was and would be honest. I asked her who the OM was. She declined to answer saying it didn’t matter anymore since the affair is over now. The only thing that matter was moving on together and reliving the past wouldn’t help us. She figured out that I didn't have as she I lead her to believe. We went back and forth I realized this conversation wasn’t get us nowhere. So I told her I was done. She looked upset by the fact I wasn’t playing her game. After awhile she tried to play it off as if everything was fine as if nothing had happened. Now she back to being angry because I refuse to sleep in the same room as her.

After she went to bed I snuck out to get the VAR. I haven’t listened to it yet I’m planning on doing it tomorrow
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
I haven’t been able to read all the updated posts. I just wanted to give you guys a quick update about what I found on the VAR. 

My wife didn’t call the OM directly but she did talk to a friend about me finding out. I’m sure who the friend was but I don’t really think that matters. Anyway during the conversation with her friend I was able confirm who the OM and it’s the grandpa. Which is sickening the guy has 30 plus years on her. I still can’t understand why him of all of all people. I’m also sure the affair is over maybe for a month or more going by the conversation. It would make sense given the phone calls stop showing up about month ago and the P.I also wasn’t able to find anything. That’s my next step is to figure when and why it end.

My wife stayed home today. She didn’t go work to day. I step VAR in our room and our home office I plan to check both before I go to sleep today.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
Kicking my wife out probably isn’t going to happen because I can’t force her to leave. As much as it sucks this technically still her house. 

When comes to grandpa I have to be careful how I deal with him. He is married for at least 20 plus years and makes good money, but he’s an ******* no one like him. Besides my wife apparently. As of now I won’t be doing anything woke at because I can’t prove anything, at least not in a court room. VAR won’t cut it, in NY has one party consent law. 

As for her friend I agree she’s toxic. I don’t who she is yet. I know it’s not one of her good friends because I know all of them. She could be a new Work friend I haven’t meet yet. Who ever she is, she toxic. She been helping and coaching my wife on what to say and act. My wife clearly doesn’t realize her friends advice is making things 10x worse.

Many might not agree but I do think this is her first affair and only time she has cheated. I can’t prove this but for most of our marriage she been a great wife it’s only recently she started to change up.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
I know guys want me to take some kind of action. I probably should do something. Normal I would do something but this isn’t a normal situation. I’m not in the right frame of mind to take any kind of action. My emotions are all over the place right now I’m numb. Is it even normal not to feel anything. For the last two days that’s what I’ve been feeling just numb to everything. I can’t really explain it. I’m not angry or sad I don’t feel anything. It scares me. At first this whole thing was heart breaking until the day I found out. It all turned to anger but I feel it’s passed. 

I’ve listened to part of recording from the VAR I left in her room. She hasn’t said anything that i didn’t already know. Although she has now told her sister. Listening to recording get a feeling that she knew but not everything. But unlike her friend my wife sister encouraged my wife to come clean. Going by the way my wife was talking I think she’s as confused as I am. 

I still haven’t listened to the whole recording so I still have to do that. I planning on doing it tonight.
-------------------------------------
I think she finally starting to realize how much she ****ed up. She’s started begging me to talk to her and she now say She willing to do anything to fix her mistakes. Most the part I’ve been ignoring her.
-------------------------------------

My wife and are both 32. 

She been a full time employee for about 10 years or so. She started interning since her junior year in college.

Right around mid level. 

I don’t think she protecting the grandpa OM its more her protecting herself. From what would happen if this gets out.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
As for asking her any more info about the affair, I’m not really interested in hearing what she has to say. Mostly because it’s probably more lies. Besides she should be forthcoming with that info on her own, I shouldn’t need to tell her that. 

I've given myself a due date if she hasn't done something by April 1st then I'm probably done. That's my due date I've given myself 4/1 and not a day later.
-------------------------------------
Re: Gut feeling, My wife might be cheating
Ok you guys win. I’m do this your way. I sent her a text asking her for a timeline with all the times, dates, places and length of the affair. Who the affair was with (we know who but if she lies then I’m done) and any emails or anything else she can show to prove what she’s telling me is true. I need all of this before I even consider talking to her.

I won’t expose the affair at work yet. I am thinking about telling the grandpa OM wife. I’m going to ask the P.I if he can provide me with her info. It shouldn’t be a problem for him. After that will decided how to best contact his wife and tell.
-------------------------------------
I’ve been ignoring her for the most part. I haven’t had a real conversation with her in person for almost a week. She has asked to talk but I usually shut that down unless it has something to do with our daughter. She seems sorry, says she wants to work this out. Most people her don’t believe that, I don’t really know if she’s being honest. She sends me a text every night asking to come to bed. I’ve been sleeping in the guest bedroom since she came back from her moms. That seems to have bothered her more than I thought it would. She hasn’t really done anything besides saying she sorry. She still does most of the things she usually does around the house. Maybe today that will change. 

I still feel numb. A part of me doesn’t care, It scares me. I’ve always been kind of laidback and nonchalant about about thing. But never when it came to stuff like this. Maybe she’s going through something similar.
-------------------------------------


----------



## sa58

Does your wife spend any extra amount of time 
going shopping. More than she should be ?

Any unexplained time away from her regular routine ?

Is her boss married ?

Any time she has come home from work or something
and went straight to take a shower ?

If you say anything slightly negative about her
boss does she seem to defend him ? She will most
likely defend the person she is interested in to you.

I am not saying it is her boss but it is probably someone
she has regular contact with at work. Could be her boss
or someone who she sees regularly. Her change in looks
means she is attracted to someone and wants their attention.
She may be getting it and will continue for as long as they are 
interested. It may or may not be physical yet but from what you
say that seems to be headed that way. Most PA at work start out
as EA. 

If you do get a chance to view her texts they will probably be things
about how her life is and maybe things you are or are not doing. Their 
reply will be similar. Maybe how I miss seeing you and things of that type.
How the other person makes her feel etc.This type of thing can be very 
hard to figure out however. With out knowing exactly what is going on.
If she has been home mostly and no change in her routine then my viewpoint 
is EA at present. Not ruling out contact at work but both EA and PA are wrong.

If your PI sees her and her boss eating lunch somewhere and she is not texting 
and laughing and seems happy then I would put him at the top of the list. He is 
probably the one she has most daily contact with. For some reason she did seem 
to be upset when he was not around. Maybe something or maybe not. 

If you do discover something I hope soon, then be prepared for BS like were just
friends, nothing happened ( an EA is something ) etc. As I and said you will
never know everything just what you can prove. Plus she will have to quit her 
job if it is at work, she may not want to do this. Rule out nobody however at present.

I understand how you feel, I cannot understand how people throw away a good 
relationship for something that will most likely never work out. Sorry to say it but
you may have to give her a chance to act on her impulse by being absent even if
your not. She may then try and set up a date night or something. Sorry that you 
are being betrayed but hope you find out what is going on soon. Then expose it to
everyone, that is sometimes the only way to end it. If it is just currently an EA then 
it will go PA soon however, seems by the way she is currently acting. 

Remember if she is cunning you need to be to.
Keep us updated many people here can help

Take care of yourself that is most important.


----------



## Adelais

Your wife is hiding something, and it is not that she bought an expensive handbag.

Have you checked her credit cards and bank account balances for unexplainable charges or withdrawals?

Keep that VAR in the car as that is a "safe place" for people to have illicit conversations.

Turning her phone face down every time you or your children enter the room is strange, unless you have previously complained about her phone usage, and she is just self conscious about it. But that doesn't seem to be the only problem.

Did you say she is sleeping with her phone under her pillow? Does she keep it on her person all the time? Those two things are indicators of at least a phone addiction, not necessarily an affair.

I would presume that your wife is having an affair, based on her behavior.


----------



## sa58

Just a suggestion but consider doing something like this.

If your wife is in another room and you go in there and she 
puts the phone down. Tell her boss has her working to hard 
and doesn't appreciate her. Watch for her reaction if she becomes
defensive and defends him then I would wonder why ? Who ever she 
is interested in she will defend them even to you her husband. Mention this 
slightly not to show you suspect anything.


----------



## TDSC60

If your router has a "map" function, pull that up and click on the Samsung device and it might show you if it is a TV or phone. If not, right click on the device and select "Properties". That may show it.

This works on the router that I use. It shows up all connected device and if they are TVs or phones. If it still shows no further info other than the brand, my bet is that it is a burner phone.


----------



## Sports Fan

Given the developments you state it would be a fair bet to assume that your wife is using an APP or perhaps multiple Apps to communicate to someone. 

I would start off by checking Facebook Messenger Whatts App Snap Chat or LinkedIn.

In regards to the newley detected Samsung Product on your router do you have a Samsung Smart TV? If not start looking for a burner phone.

Hang tight i feel its only a matter of days before the PI your hired finds something. I would be betting anything that might be going on is work related.

Use the time to see a Good Divorce Lawyer and plan your next steps. Its not a matter of if but when you finally unearth her infedelity. At the very least you will be prepared.

So sorry you are going through this.


----------



## Robert22205

How many Samsung devices do you own in your family?
I assume both your phones our already signed into your wifi. 

Is your wife home?

A burner phone can operate exclusively off your wifi for call, texts, and emails. .... thereby saving her subscribing to a cell phone plan.

Check her car and her home office or other room where she feels private.


----------



## JayPau

Andy1001 said:


> Try downloading an app called EMF Detector.
> If there is another phone in your house it may find it.
> It worked for me but another poster tried it and it didn’t work, but it’s free at least for one attempt.


Thank you! I just downloaded the app and tested it. The app went nuts when I came across a blow dryer.


----------



## JayPau

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Install Wire shark and start watching traffic on the IP associated with that MAC.
> 
> Google the Wire shark tutorials.


I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking at. I need some more tutorials.


----------



## JayPau

Update:

Here is what I do know. My wife and kids left the house to grab lunch. I unplugged all TV's in our house. We have two Samsung's. I waited about 15 minutes and the same Samsung device was showing up on my Netgear router. I started using the EFM detector App around the house but I haven't turned up anything. The app does work, I do know that.

Was able to get a few minutes to look over my wife's iPhone. No unusual apps or strange notifications. Very little in her browser history, tho. She was online last night for quite sometime. My best guess right now is that she's messaging using actual websites and not apps. Easy to delete the history. One other thing, she does not have that many apps. Instead she has several shortcuts that look like apps on her phone. SIRI suggestions is showing mostly Safari, Apple mail, health app and the calculator. This was all done at about 6:00am this morning.

I'm really hoping the PI can reveal something soon. I'm tired of playing this game and I'm miserable. I hoping once something is revealed I will feel some sense of relief.


----------



## JayPau

Robert22205 said:


> How many Samsung devices do you own in your family?
> I assume both your phones our already signed into your wifi.
> 
> Is your wife home?
> 
> A burner phone can operate exclusively off your wifi for call, texts, and emails. .... thereby saving her subscribing to a cell phone plan.
> 
> Check her car and her home office or other room where she feels private.


We have two Samsung TV's.


----------



## Robert22205

Sometimes I've had to sign my tv set into my home wifi network a second time or third etc.

Maybe due to a software update?

Check to see if the tvs need to be signed in again. Otherwise, check for a phone.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

JayPau; said:


> Instead she has several shortcuts that look like apps on her phone. SIRI suggestions is showing mostly Safari, Apple mail, health app and the calculator. This was all done at about 6:00am this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really hoping the PI can reveal something soon. I'm tired of playing this game and I'm miserable. I hoping once something is revealed I will feel some sense of relief.



There is a Calculator app that looks just like a regular calculator app but stores photos. I think you have to punch in a series of numbers or an equation in order to access the photos. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cp3o

I seem to recall someone, somewhere, some months ago reporting that some comms apps hide behind an innocuous title - such as clock, weather or calculator.


----------



## Copycat

Was it "calculator" or "calculator %"? The calculator % was specifically designed for cheaters to mimic the actual calculator app.

PS: Also, just to clarify your post about a hair dryer –*does it mean you found something hidden inside the dryer or nearby? When you install you VARs in the apartment, you might be not the only person hiding devices here and there.

I am sending you strength. If you want to feel relief then don't wait but act on your next possible steps. First, see an attorney to learn your options. Also, try to find a trusted friend who could support you at this emotionally draining stage of your life. You will need a lot of energy for decisive actions when the truth comes out, and you already know that the chances your wife is cheating are really very high. Therefore, don't wait but act. Ask yourself "what if" and "what is next" and prepare for it. Because there is a chance that after finding out the truth you will not have the relief you are hoping for. Again, please try to find someone close and mentally strong who could support you now. 

I admire your ability to keep your knowledge and suspicions hidden from your spouse. It is a sign of your emotional intelligence. Good luck!


----------



## jlg07

I'm thinking that the "other" samsung is a burner phone.
When she is OUT, do a complete search in your house -- all of her drawers, her closet, etc. However , is she is out, she PROBABLY had the phone with her.


----------



## TDSC60

jlg07 said:


> I'm thinking that the "other" samsung is a burner phone.
> When she is OUT, do a complete search in your house -- all of her drawers, her closet, etc. However , is she is out, she PROBABLY had the phone with her.


If not in the house.......then it is in her car.

Especially if she wanted to talk to and from work and not have the phone call show up on your bill. Time to VAR the car.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

My Samsung phone shows up as Android on my CISCO. 

In the search field try ip.addr == suspect IP to start. 

A device up and online will have much less chatter than one actively being used. 

But she is on the regular phone all the time. Why a burner then? 

Anyway, perhaps consider blocking the device via the router and see if that stirs anything up. If she asks if internet is ok quickly unblock and tell her seems ok to you.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

If the device is out of WIFI bounds the device will say 'offline' in the router device list. 

JayPau, was device online while she was away? 

Do both your Samsungs have Wifi or Ethernet connection ? If Wifi ready they might be sending out messages looking for a network to connect to.


----------



## TDSC60

JayPau said:


> Update:
> 
> Here is what I do know. My wife and kids left the house to grab lunch. I unplugged all TV's in our house. We have two Samsung's. I waited about 15 minutes and the same Samsung device was showing up on my Netgear router. I started using the EFM detector App around the house but I haven't turned up anything. The app does work, I do know that.
> 
> Was able to get a few minutes to look over my wife's iPhone. No unusual apps or strange notifications. Very little in her browser history, tho. She was online last night for quite sometime. My best guess right now is that she's messaging using actual websites and not apps. Easy to delete the history. One other thing, she does not have that many apps. Instead she has several shortcuts that look like apps on her phone. SIRI suggestions is showing mostly Safari, Apple mail, health app and the calculator. This was all done at about 6:00am this morning.
> 
> I'm really hoping the PI can reveal something soon. I'm tired of playing this game and I'm miserable. I hoping once something is revealed I will feel some sense of relief.


If the Samsung device is a burner phone, if it is simply turned on it will not give off too much EMF radiation while in the sleep mode. Going nuts around a hair dryer is not an indication that the app can detect a phone not in use. EMF is given off by any live electrical wires. 

It may work if you get close enough to the phone. Like opening all her drawers and moving the detector over the top of the contents. It might be easier just to search the drawers.

I found a couple of things my wife was hiding in her underwear drawer. She knew I did not rummage through it (until I started actively looking). Is there a room where she goes to be alone?


----------



## Goose54

My Samsung smart TVs are both (different gens) wireless so it probably is your TV showing up on the router.


----------



## jlg07

Hopefully your PI will find something tomorrow to either affirm or deny the affair. I'm sure this limbo is killing you.
Just stay firm and not let on -- let the PI do his work.


----------



## Marc878

VAR the car


----------



## Marc878

You're close. Try and stay as cool, calm and collected as you can.


----------



## MattMatt

jlg07 said:


> I'm thinking that the "other" samsung is a burner phone.
> When she is OUT, do a complete search in your house -- all of her drawers, her closet, etc. However , is she is out, she PROBABLY had the phone with her.


Or a printer, maybe?

Or a neighbour hacking your wifi?


----------



## Luminous

jlg07 said:


> I'm thinking that the "other" samsung is a burner phone.
> When she is OUT, do a complete search in your house -- all of her drawers, her closet, etc. However , is she is out, she PROBABLY had the phone with her.


A small thing to remember. As much as this is draining the absolute life out of you, if you go looking through things at home that normally don't involve you (i.e. her drawers, cupboards of her stuff etc.) make sure you leave EVERYTHING as you found it.

I feel for you mate, but hang in there, salvation will come.


----------



## StillSearching

Guilty people plead and cry, innocent people get angry and stay that way throughout the questioning.
If she swears to God that she didn't do anything. 
She's guilty.
If she says "In all honesty" the next thing out of her mouth is a lie.


----------



## personofinterest

StillSearching said:


> Guilty people plead and cry, innocent people get angry and stay that way throughout the questioning.
> If she swears to God that she didn't do anything.
> She's guilty.
> If she says "In all honesty" the next thing out of her mouth is a lie.


See, and I have heard that innocent people will wig out, freak out, etc. and guilty people get angry and defensive. Bottom line, a good liar will be hard to spot, so EVIDENCE is the best way to go rather than confrontation. You're right about "in all honesty" though. A liar usually OVER answers.


----------



## StillSearching

personofinterest said:


> See, and I have heard that innocent people will wig out, freak out, etc. and *guilty people get angry* and defensive. Bottom line, a good liar will be hard to spot, so EVIDENCE is the best way to go rather than confrontation. You're right about "in all honesty" though. A liar usually OVER answers.


Not over time.
Innocent people stay angry.
Agree that evidence helps. 
But all the evidence in the world could not convince me at the time.


----------



## michzz

Save your wifi logs somewhere and then clear them off the router. And then scan again.

Only what is connected now will then show up.


----------



## re16

Her secretive phone behavior makes me think there is not a burner, and she is doing this right in the open on her main phone.

VAR in the car is critical.

You've got to go with the percentages. It is likely workplace, and likely the boss... if he is the only male there, bingo.


----------



## faithfulman

The real way to spot a liar is to keep on asking questions and poke at stuff that doesn't make sense.

The vast majority of liars can't keep their stories straight and also will tell tales that make no sense.


----------



## MarriedTex

On the Samsung issue, it could just as easily be the phone of a kid's friend coming over to hang out at your place and logging into the WiFi.


----------



## jlg07

I just checked my own router, and my samsung phone shows up as "android" and not samsung, so....
I would guess then a smart tv or similar.


----------



## re16

If you have access to her iphone, did you look at the boss' contact in imessage? When you click on a conversation thread, click the "i" (info) in the upper right corner and it will show any message attachments that have been sent. Even if the imessage was deleted, the message attachments (photos) still show up on the info page unless you specifically go in and delete them, you essentially have to delete them in two places to get rid of them. You could also see if "hide alerts" was on for any contacts in imessage on the info page.


----------



## aRock

MarriedTex said:


> On the Samsung issue, it could just as easily be the phone of a kid's friend coming over to hang out at your place and logging into the WiFi.


It could be any device that has been given the login credentials.

If you hit 'refresh' on the connected devices tab on a NetGear router. Any devices not presently in range will drop off and and devices newly in-range (and logged in) will reappear. (This refresh happens from time to time on its own, too. Hitting the button just makes it happen right now) Most portable devices will remember the network and log back in automatically.

You can confirm that the device is present by 'pinging' it from the command line. 

I just checked an old Motorola Android phone I had laying around. It shows up as Android-a51728...(some long number) Maybe someone can do the same check on a Samsung phone for you


----------



## michzz

aRock said:


> It could be any device that has been given the login credentials.
> 
> If you hit 'refresh' on the connected devices tab on a NetGear router. Any devices not presently in range will drop off and and devices newly in-range (and logged in) will reappear. (This refresh happens from time to time on its own, too. Hitting the button just makes it happen right now) Most portable devices will remember the network and log back in automatically.
> 
> You can confirm that the device is present by 'pinging' it from the command line.
> 
> I just checked an old Motorola Android phone I had laying around. It shows up as Android-a51728...(some long number) Maybe someone can do the same check on a Samsung phone for you


Then definitely change the router wifi password. And only update your own stuff and the things like the tv or a bluray player. Then check the logs.

After that? Let wife know you updated the password. Please no not make it sound like a suspicious thing. Just say you read that you're supposed to do that from time to time to keep the risk of hacking down on your network.

Then check the logs again after she has accessed the network.

Compare with earlier log


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> If you have access to her iphone, did you look at the boss' contact in imessage? When you click on a conversation thread, click the "i" (info) in the upper right corner and it will show any message attachments that have been sent. Even if the imessage was deleted, the message attachments (photos) still show up on the info page unless you specifically go in and delete them, you essentially have to delete them in two places to get rid of them. You could also see if "hide alerts" was on for any contacts in imessage on the info page.


This is VERY helpful! iOS 12 made some changes, but google helped me. Once I have the iPad synced to her iCloud, this might show something nefarious.


----------



## JayPau

michzz said:


> Then definitely change the router wifi password. And only update your own stuff and the things like the tv or a bluray player. Then check the logs.
> 
> After that? Let wife know you updated the password. Please no not make it sound like a suspicious thing. Just say you read that you're supposed to do that from time to time to keep the risk of hacking down on your network.
> 
> Then check the logs again after she has accessed the network.
> 
> Compare with earlier log


Thanks! I will start working on this when I get home soon. I'm only working another 10 minutes today.


----------



## JayPau

Update!

I have the PI doing surveillance today, but with some changes. Last night my wife told me her boss will be away for this entire work week. Or, so she says. I thought about not doing the surveillance today because of this, but it still might be helpful. We don't know who the guy is, so with the boss gone (or supposedly), it might be interesting to see if anything happens. We might learn something.

I'm going to change the password on my router and see if anything comes of it. I'm also going to search our house with an EMF detector and see if I can get lucky.

Thanks for all of your continued support!


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> This is VERY helpful! iOS 12 made some changes, but google helped me. Once I have the iPad synced to her iCloud, this might show something nefarious.


Just be sure you have her phone when you connect an extra device like the ipad because it will send a notification.


----------



## ShatteredKat

JayPau

I think the previous poster intended for you to change the "wireless" access password.

Also, you can limit who can access by mac address - and also the number of IP addresses or by IP address if you want to hardcode IP address per device. Use the excuse you are seeing hacking attempts on your Netgear router.

Also #2: the mysterious "Samsung" device could be a neighbor - I can pick up wireless from 3 neighbors that are several hundred yards away from me (live in wood with about 40 acres around me)

Put a VAR in wifes car and set to use sd card - get a 2nd and when you get the chance swap SD card and BATTERIES (Lithium) and listen on 2nd VAR. Note sounds in the background and also the car noise. For example, stop/go driving will sound different from a cruise on a parkway/highway. Remember (if you have seen) the Fugitive where the EL sounds in the background gave away the Doctor was in town?

Smells on her clothes/car? Odd stuff - maybe a white hair (gawd-hope she isn't doing a grxxxxx)

Look on Google for "Checkmate" (dna test) and consider the possibility of using that too.
"Don't do my laundry" is really suspicious! (Unless you are bleaching her bluejeans white)

EMF detector "goes nutz" around blow dryer? Carbon Brush type electric motors generate a lot of "radio frequency noise" and not knowing "EMF detector" - this sounds
like what you experience - unless the blow dryer is off. AC only motors (like your refrigerator or bath vent) don't generated RF noise. (maybe for a millisecond when starting up)

I hope, for you, that this turns into something weird but not infidelity - but it sure smells so far.


----------



## StillSearching

JayPau said:


> Update!
> 
> I have the PI doing surveillance today, but with some changes. Last night my wife told me her boss will be away for this entire work week. Or, so she says. I thought about not doing the surveillance today because of this, but it still might be helpful. We don't know who the guy is, so with the boss gone (or supposedly), it might be interesting to see if anything happens. We might learn something.
> 
> I'm going to change the password on my router and see if anything comes of it. I'm also going to search our house with an EMF detector and see if I can get lucky.
> 
> Thanks for all of your continued support!


This brings back anxiety.


----------



## aRock

michzz said:


> Then definitely change the router wifi password. And only update your own stuff and the things like the tv or a bluray player. Then check the logs.
> 
> After that? Let wife know you updated the password. Please no not make it sound like a suspicious thing. Just say you read that you're supposed to do that from time to time to keep the risk of hacking down on your network.
> 
> Then check the logs again after she has accessed the network.
> 
> Compare with earlier log


I don't think I'd update the password. I don't see any downside to staying quiet about it to not draw any attention, and just keep an eye on that suspicious device. You may actually lose access to information for a while. Unless you're hoping to can observe her behavior with restoring her connection - your call. With the right network sniffer tools, you should be able to capture and log any communication to it.

Here's a start: Google "how-to-tap-your-network-and-see-everything-that-happens"

Maybe another member has ideas, too.


----------



## Copycat

It seems very probable to me that your wife was upset on Friday and texted for 10 minutes before her work because she learned about the boss not getting back to work up until the next week.

Do you remember how and why did you wife mentioned her boss to you yesterday? Did she sound upset?

PS: I wonder if you can delegate your IT research to a professional? You could easily do it by granting this person remote access via TeamViewer and assisting him/her when he/she needs your physical presence at home. 

Also, I might be wrong, but I have an impression is that your PI is somewhat weak. He could certainly help you more with your IT search and do better job at monitoring/assisting with VARs, installing web cameras in your house, etc.


----------



## re16

How long has she been working for this boss guy?

If you didn't know she was on facebook, you should look through the comments and likes to any your wife's posts, especially to see if any are him. You would need to be a facebook friend of hers to do this if her account is private, but a lot are not.

Usually there would be some evidence that the affair partner is involved with her personal life.

Did you look through her Facebook Messenger app on her phone?


----------



## michzz

michzz said:


> Then definitely change the router wifi password. And only update your own stuff and the things like the tv or a bluray player. Then check the logs.
> 
> After that? Let wife know you updated the password. Please no not make it sound like a suspicious thing. Just say you read that you're supposed to do that from time to time to keep the risk of hacking down on your network.
> 
> Then check the logs again after she has accessed the network.
> 
> Compare with earlier log





aRock said:


> I don't think I'd update the password. I don't see any downside to staying quiet about it to not draw any attention, and just keep an eye on that suspicious device. You may actually lose access to information for a while. Unless you're hoping to can observe her behavior with restoring her connection - your call. With the right network sniffer tools, you should be able to capture and log any communication to it.
> 
> Here's a start: Google "how-to-tap-your-network-and-see-everything-that-happens"
> 
> Maybe another member has ideas, too.


The rationale is to find out what the Samsung device is by eliminating variables. AND to head off suspicion by the wife since if you change the password she will want to know why. Unless paranoid, changing the password periodically is normal to most of us.

If it is not important to find out what devices are getting logged, then don't change the password.


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry you're still in this ongoing mess. Speak to your doctor about PTSD and getting meds for anxiety and sleeplessness.

If the OM is her boss, then for sure they will meet face to face in private either this coming weekend or next week on Monday (or Tues at the latest).
So reserve some PI time for next week.

I think you still have to monitor her with the PI this week just in case it's someone else. 

Question: Is there a reduction in the amount of texting while the Boss is out of town?
Is he on vacation or a business trip. If he was the OM and away on business, then she'd be traveling on business with him.


----------



## Marc878

If she's texting at home you have a good view of her phone. If it's her original then she's using and app.

Unless she has two phones that are identical which would require a separate account. Maybe purchased thru her business?


----------



## re16

Marc878 said:


> If she's texting at home you have a good view of her phone. If it's her original then she's using and app.
> 
> Unless she has two phones that are identical which would require a separate account. Maybe purchased thru her business?


Bringing out an identical burner 2nd phone while at home seems unlikely. He could always just call her number and see if it rings.

Her communication is on her phone, he just needs to find it. Sneak up behind her, catch it in a mirror, to see what app she is using.


----------



## re16

One other thought, are we sure we are looking for OM and not an OW?

There have been a handful of times on here the wife was caught in a relationship with a woman, and this same sex desire was a surprise to the husband.


----------



## MattMatt

Samsung products that might be found in the home with wifi capability:-

Laptops, Chromebooks, computers, watches, printers, phones, washer/dryers, fridges, freezers, air con, robotic vacuums, doorbell systems, cameras, thermostats, air con, sensors, security systems, etc.


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> My wife ate lunch with a lady she knows well who works in an adjacent office.


Is this woman married? Is she at the same company or different?


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> How long has she been working for this boss guy?
> 
> If you didn't know she was on facebook, you should look through the comments and likes to any your wife's posts, especially to see if any are him. You would need to be a facebook friend of hers to do this if her account is private, but a lot are not.
> 
> Usually there would be some evidence that the affair partner is involved with her personal life.
> 
> Did you look through her Facebook Messenger app on her phone?


She's been working for him for about 10 years. Her FB account looks bare. Not many friends, no signs of private messaging going on. I did not see any messaging apps on her iPhone. I'm guessing she uses the web version of FB on her phone. Unless of course she has FB messenger and/or other messaging apps hidden on her iPhone and she deletes/reinstalls them when it's convenient for her.


----------



## JayPau

Copycat said:


> It seems very probable to me that your wife was upset on Friday and texted for 10 minutes before her work because she learned about the boss not getting back to work up until the next week.
> 
> Do you remember how and why did you wife mentioned her boss to you yesterday? Did she sound upset?
> 
> PS: I wonder if you can delegate your IT research to a professional? You could easily do it by granting this person remote access via TeamViewer and assisting him/her when he/she needs your physical presence at home.
> 
> Also, I might be wrong, but I have an impression is that your PI is somewhat weak. He could certainly help you more with your IT search and do better job at monitoring/assisting with VARs, installing web cameras in your house, etc.


Might be true about Friday. 

Last night she said this week was going to be busy w/o the boss in town. She's not happy with the workload that's going to be piled on her. She really did not seem upset about him being gone and missing him. As if she only cares about being overworked, nothing else.

The PI told me he doesn't dab into hacking e-devices. In fact, he did tell me if it turns out there's an affair going on and it's just online, there's not much he can do.


----------



## JayPau

Robert22205 said:


> I'm sorry you're still in this ongoing mess. Speak to your doctor about PTSD and getting meds for anxiety and sleeplessness.
> 
> If the OM is her boss, then for sure they will meet face to face in private either this coming weekend or next week on Monday (or Tues at the latest).
> So reserve some PI time for next week.
> 
> I think you still have to monitor her with the PI this week just in case it's someone else.
> 
> Question: Is there a reduction in the amount of texting while the Boss is out of town?
> Is he on vacation or a business trip. If he was the OM and away on business, then she'd be traveling on business with him.


She's still a texting/messaging machine today.


----------



## JayPau

This "Samsung Device" is no longer showing as an attached device on my router. Keep in mind I did not change a thing. Not sure what to do now. Maybe just change the password to allow internet access?


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> This "Samsung Device" is no longer showing as an attached device on my router. Keep in mind I did not change a thing. Not sure what to do now. Maybe just change the password to allow internet access?


Maybe don't change anything yet and see if it reappears.


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> Is this woman married? Is she at the same company or different?


Yes, she's married with kids. She works for a different company, a realty company.


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> She's still a texting/messaging machine today.


You've got to be able to get a glimpse of her phone....


----------



## JayPau

This is interesting, she's eating a late lunch again. It's with the same lady. The PI says there's no texting going on now.


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> You've got to be able to get a glimpse of her phone....


I asked the PI if he/they can get close enough to do that


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> This is interesting, she's eating a late lunch again. It's with the same lady. The PI says there's no texting going on now.


Does she talk much about this lady? You said your wife knew her well earlier. Do they ever get together post work hours?


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> Does she talk much about this lady? You said your wife knew her well earlier. Do they ever get together post work hours?


She comes up in conversations sometimes. I did not know they eat lunch together. This is two times in what 4 or 5 days. I'm not aware of the two of them getting together post work hours. My wife has been pretty consistent with coming home from work before 6pm. Even after all of this nonsense started months ago.


----------



## re16

It seems the physical proximity works for both the boss and this woman. If it is the boss, it seems weird it would start after she's been there almost 10 years.

Check out your wife's imessage history with both. You would think the coordinating of lunch etc would be in messaging, if you don't see it, she is probably deleting all correspondence.


----------



## cp3o

Your wife knows this woman well.

How well do you know this woman - is what you "know" because your wife has told you or more directly?

If your wife has not mentioned lunching with her it may indicate that there is something to hide - that you might start asking awkward questions if she mentioned it. On the other hand she may merely regard the meet ups as so trivial and innocent that she forgets them once she's back at work.

Is this woman a similar age to your wife? Could she be someone who is influencing your wife, someone she might be unburdening herself to, someone who is an enabler. Can you find out if she is a cheater - now or past? My experience is that cheaters like to encourage others as a way to ease their own conscience (I know - it's daft, but that's how they see it - if everyone is at it they are no worse than everyone else aren't they).

Can your PI find out a little more about your wife's co-luncher? If only to remove her from any involvement with your concerns.


----------



## turnera

Maybe she's decided she'd rather be with a woman.


----------



## Marc878

Maybe it's just because the main man is away


----------



## Copycat

Jay, don't forget about the big picture:

- have you seen an attorney to learn your divorce rights, mechanics and potential outcomes?
- have you seen a doctor for an STIs test?
- have you at least thought about (if not already arranged) who and what can be your support system in case your gut feeling is right that your wife is cheating (which is very likely given everything you have said)?
- have you thought where you can go or your wife can go in case you need separation? 

I understand how important it is for you to find out what is going on, but please don't forget about making rights steps apart from your gadget hunt.


----------



## Tobyboy

JayPau said:


> She comes up in conversations sometimes. I did not know they eat lunch together. This is two times in what 4 or 5 days. I'm not aware of the two of them getting together post work hours. My wife has been pretty consistent with coming home from work before 6pm. Even after all of this nonsense started months ago.


This is where you figure out what the *common denominator* is between your wife and her lunch friend.


----------



## TDSC60

JayPau said:


> This "Samsung Device" is no longer showing as an attached device on my router. Keep in mind I did not change a thing. Not sure what to do now. Maybe just change the password to allow internet access?


If it is a phone, then she took it to the office or left it in the car.


----------



## JayPau

Update!

I had the PI surveil my wife about 45 minutes before she started work. Guess what? She was having breakfast with her same lady friend again. For the sake of this conversation, I will call her Mia. The PI told me he has a lady working with him. She was able to get close enough to hear some of their conversation. Apparently, Mia is having some serious marital problems. It sounds as if it has been going on for many months. Her husband thinks she's fooling around and he has told her he does not trust her. I know the husband, but not real well. Does he know something? I don't know. He never struck me as the jealous type. Just a mellow easygoing guy. A hard worker, too. 

As for Mia, like her husband, I don't know her real well. Any contact I have had with her or her husband in the past involved some sort of gathering with my wife, her coworkers and others in their line of business. Lending, realty, maybe title people, too. Christmas gatherings, award banquets, stuff like that. 

This could simply be my wife being a good friend and helping out her friend by talking and listening to her. I could certainly understand that. The fact that she never told me about this is strange, tho. I checked our cell usage online and it showed a call from Mia's cellphone to my wife's about 30 minutes after she started work. A 37 minute call! They just had breakfast. I'm not sure what to make of this. My wife does not talk a lot on her cell, she texts/messages a lot. I'm going to have the PI surveil her again for a few hours later today to see if they meet up again for lunch.


----------



## Tasorundo

I would think that if Mia was the potential affair partner, that during 3 meals together they would have had some obvious signs of affection.


----------



## Tobyboy

Interesting. So the common denominator between your wife and her friend is they both have suspicious husbands!! 

Mouth shut, eyes open. Do not reach out to the husband. Hell, he might be the one cheating.


----------



## sa58

Just my viewpoint again

First thing 

Your wife knows you suspect something. She sits in a different 
room texting away ( sad and disrespectful to you ) then takes 
the kids to lunch and leaves her cell phone behind. In today society
not many people leave their cell phone like that. Especially when 
leaving with the kids. No way to call home if needed ? Sure he sees me
texting someone ( turns her phone face down then ) so let him check.
He will not find anything ( proof ) about what I am doing!! Same thing 
with all of her social media. She let you see her cell phone on purpose
denial on her part. I am not doing anything see I told you type thing.

Your wife knows what ever she is doing is hurting you and is wrong.
Guilty but she may not really care at this point about you or how she
makes you feel. Sad but true probably. Was she still texting away 
when she had lunch last time with the same lady friend. Yes !!

Your wife is doing something hiding it from you. That is noway for
a relationship to be. Causing you hurt and grief also. She knows 
that and continues doing it. You are not going to find any texts 
or digital information. She is covering her tracks. Your best bet 
is PI. If it is her boss then he is out of town so nothing but texts
will happen. You will not see them anyway correct. I suspect the 
boss, top of the list. Is he married ? If it turns out that way tell
his wife quickly. Tell everybody quickly !! 

How long are you willing to endure this and hurt is entirely up to you.
If your PI comes up with nothing then what. You deserve a loving wife
and family. If she appears to not want to be part of that let her go. You deserve 
to be happy in your marriage free from cheating and lies. If she is just helping 
a friend out then she should have told you something. Again she sees what you
are going through and continues doing it. Apparently she doesn't care to me.

If you do find out who she is seeing do not confront them. Worse for you.
If you confront her have a secret recording device handy. Protection for you
from false claims and you can replay what she says. Do not play her blame 
game either. You are not at fault she is cheating and hiding something from 
you. Not your fault hers period

You may reach a point in this where you need to decide if the marriage is worth 
continuing. Staying and going through this or telling her you have had enough.
Think about moving out for a while is so. She may see this as a way to do what
ever more or she may wake up and realize what she is about to lose You her family etc.
She may not really care to. Right now she seems to be blinded by who ever she is 
texting constantly. 

Most affair relationships do not last. They are based on lies and cheating and fall apart
So does a marriage with lies and cheating.


----------



## JayPau

Tasorundo said:


> I would think that if Mia was the potential affair partner, that during 3 meals together they would have had some obvious signs of affection.


That's my thinking, too. I'm still going to go back and look at all of the cell phone records going back at least 6 months. I need to see if there's any sort of pattern with Mia.


----------



## turnera

Or else her affair partner is out of town so she's busy helping a friend.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> Or else her affair partner is out of town so she's busy helping a friend.


This was my thought as well.


----------



## JayPau

I'm in a state of disbelief, loneliness and fear. I know something is going on and I have felt this way for months and months. The fact that these feelings have never gone away tells me I right. I'm not angry, I already know something bad is going to be revealed. I'm just hurting like hell. I have never felt this empty. At times I still want to see my wife, kiss her, hug her and tell her how much I love her. But when she's around me now, I'm miserable and I don't want to go near her. I'm beginning to look at my wife as a pathetic person inside and out. A fake women without feelings or a conscious. I'm worried about our kids. I'm trying to keep things together and as normal as possible for them, but I feel like I'm failing them.


----------



## sa58

To many things present here 
Red flags and his screaming gut feeling.
She is cheating and even if she was helping 
Mia, look what it is doing to her husband and 
marriage. Not a healthy relationship hiding things
and everything else. 
I hope your PI finds something soon, maybe not 
until next week. The AP boss will be back, but her texting 
will continue I bet. If he comes back and she has lunch with 
him and doesn't text, that will be because she is with the person 
she talks to and texts him.

Sorry to say that


----------



## ButtPunch

Sorry Man

I know this doesn't help now but

this can be the worst best thing to ever happen to you

One thing i learned being here 8 years is that no matter
what is happening you will recover and be stronger than ever

Things always work out in the end

Seen it time and time again


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> I'm in a state of disbelief, loneliness and fear. I know something is going on and I have felt this way for months and months. The fact that these feelings have never gone away tells me I right. I'm not angry, I already know something bad is going to be revealed. I'm just hurting like hell. I have never felt this empty. At times I still want to see my wife, kiss her, hug her and tell her how much I love her. But when she's around me now, I'm miserable and I don't want to go near her. I'm beginning to look at my wife as a pathetic person inside and out. A fake women without feelings or a conscious. I'm worried about our kids. I'm trying to keep things together and as normal as possible for them, but I feel like I'm failing them.


Sorry this is happening. This is one of the toughest parts to keep it together and act normal. Lots of exercise helps (plus gets you in even better shape if you are possibly heading back on the market)

If Mia is talking about the husband not trusting her, could be the two of them scheming. I hate to say it, but all signs so far point to the AP being Mia.

Has your wife ever said anything about being interested in women?


----------



## re16

Am I right that they had lunch together Friday and Monday and now breakfast today (Tuesday)? So she has spent at least an hour with this woman every workday she has been tailed?


----------



## Jaded1

JayPau said:


> I'm in a state of disbelief, loneliness and fear. I know something is going on and I have felt this way for months and months. The fact that these feelings have never gone away tells me I right. I'm not angry, I already know something bad is going to be revealed. I'm just hurting like hell. I have never felt this empty. At times I still want to see my wife, kiss her, hug her and tell her how much I love her. *But when she's around me now, I'm miserable and I don't want to go near her. I'm beginning to look at my wife as a pathetic person inside and out. A fake women without feelings or a conscious.* I'm worried about our kids. I'm trying to keep things together and as normal as possible for them, but I feel like I'm failing them.



Jay, I hope you get an answer either way very soon. Keeping my fingers crossed that her actions prove to innocent.. for once in my years on these forums, I'd like to see this to turn out positive for you.

Another reason I hope you get a quick answer, is that you are suffering with the feelings highlighted above. Despite your best effort to maintain a good poker face, she may start to pickup on your vibes, and may go deeper underground. 

Then there is also the toll on your health and well-being.

Hang in there.


----------



## sa58

You are right to feel the way you feel about your wife.
Sitting in a room texting to someone who may just be using
her is pathetic. Especially with her loving husband and kids in
another room. If her boss is her AP and married then he doesn't 
care, sad she may not be able to see that now. You can not control
what she does, just yourself. Taking care of yourself is the most important 
thing now. She is not the person you know and care about. The minute she 
started doing this that person was gone. Concentrate on yourself and your kids
now. You are still a young man and successful, she may turn out to be a cheating
single ex who threw a good relationship away. You may not see this now because of
her lies and what else she is doing but you deserve better. 

I am truly sorry this has happened to you we all here are.
Do not listen to her lies and BS you know something is going on.
Finding out may be hard, dealing with what to do next harder.
If you do find out it is her boss, then I hope she loses her job 
also. The pain you are feeling is why I hate loathsome cheaters
They never seem to care or see the pain they are causing until
exposed for who they truly are. If you have some close friends 
or family lean on them for support. 

Remember you did not cause or do this she did. Not you !!


----------



## AttaBoy

When I was trying to gather evidence I just played my symptoms as being sick. Nauseous and dizzy and out of sorts. Damn those shopping cart handles and point of sale keypads are full of germs.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

OP, you mentioned Office265? I assume she has that installed. That has Lync which is a corporate IM service. 

Have you tried launching it? 

I


----------



## oldshirt

The chances of this Mia being th AP is about 0.0000001% and is probably the stuff of overactive imagination and watching too much lesbian porn.

(Although over the years I have lost a serious LTR and a FWB to other women so it does happen)

But what is very common is WW's tend to hang out together, encourage and support each other and give each other guidence and advice. They also tend to brag to each other about how hot their AP is and can be very frank and graphic in their descriptions of the sex they have with the AP. They often share a lot with each other because a fellow cheater is often the only one they can have these conversations with. 

It may be well worth your time to try to hack into her txts and emails with this Mia. There may be some smoking guns if their communications can be intercepted.

The PI staking out their lunches and getting within earshot of their convo may be very fruitful.


----------



## Robert22205

I think it's worth continuing to try to ID the OM because if he's married he'll most likely dump your wife when exposed (i.e., when you inform his wife). With the OM out of the picture, you can then decide whether to R or D. In addition, identifying the OM gives you concrete proof to expose your wife to all your friends and family in an effort to bring social/family pressure on her to discontinue the affair.

I agree she's intentionally leaving her 'clean' cell phone at home to create a false sense of security for you. She may sense you're not acting normal ... or she may just be a highly skilled cheater - or both. I also think it's a red flag that there're no texts after she's asleep (and not monitoring her phone) that you might read. Just friends text at all hours. 

However, I strongly suggest you see your doctor tomorrow. Tell him what's going on with your wife, the texting, the PI ... and get a prescription for meds to help you sleep and control anxiety. This is a long distance endurance challenge ... you need to stay strong, calm and focused.

I believe in planning for the worst while hoping for the best. Speak with your lawyer to find out what D looks like - and what the process and timeline is in your state. A plan will give you a sense of control and can be modified as needed.

I'm not suggesting that you D her (that's for you decide much later). However, she has to believe you will divorce her before she takes you seriously. Therefore, when you're ready to confront (even if only on the basis of the secretive high volume texting & deleted texts) you must act decisively. 

As your wife she has an obligation to avoid behaving in a manner that makes you feel unsafe. First VAR her car. Take control and serve her divorce papers at work. She'll then call the OM or OW from her car. Never (and I mean never) reveal your source of info - or how much you know. The fact that you serve her sends a strong message that you have all the proof you need - and you are serious. And you can withdraw the paperwork if you later decide to R.


----------



## Cynthia

I know I'm in the minority here, but I am not convinced she's cheating. She could be, but this could simply be a rough spot in your marriage that needs to be worked through. Perhaps your wife is upset about something and is connecting more with her friends. If something is wrong, a lot of times people who have good friends will reach out to them more. I don't find it odd that your wife spoke to her friend again after breakfast.

I think something is definitely going on, but your money may be better spend on couples therapy rather than a PI. Obviously you're not happy. If she's not cheating, that might be something you two can correct together.

I am a believer that we should always check our gut, because it is often right, but sometimes it's not. Gut feelings can be misinterpreted.


----------



## oldshirt

CynthiaDe said:


> I know I'm in the minority here, but I am not convinced she's cheating. She could be, but this could simply be a rough spot in your marriage that needs to be worked through. Perhaps your wife is upset about something and is connecting more with her friends. If something is wrong, a lot of times people who have good friends will reach out to them more. I don't find it odd that your wife spoke to her friend again after breakfast.
> 
> I think something is definitely going on, but your money may be better spend on couples therapy rather than a PI. Obviously you're not happy. If she's not cheating, that might be something you two can correct together.
> 
> I am a believer that we should always check our gut, because it is often right, but sometimes it's not. Gut feelings can be misinterpreted.


I agree that she may not be cheating.

But the thing is that a diligent, full-faith effort into looking into that possibility is necessary because if she is cheating then all of the therapy and MC and conversations and date nights and stuff like that will not mean a hill of beans.

If a WW is being lived up and stimulated by an OM, then nothing a BS does will mean a thing. It will all be spitting in the wind. 

She is showing concerning red flags and probable cause here, so prudence would dictate ruling out a another man/men before seeking therapy etc.


----------



## JayPau

The PI just informed me that Mia picked up my wife moments ago. It's interesting that she picked up my wife around the corner from their offices. They are going to follow them and see what they do and where they go.


----------



## re16

oldshirt said:


> The chances of this Mia being th AP is about 0.0000001% and is probably the stuff of overactive imagination and watching too much lesbian porn.
> 
> .



I think the chances just got a lot higher than that....


----------



## Robert22205

Where or who is your wife supposed to be with tonight??

Did she text you that she was going to be late?


----------



## oldshirt

re16 said:


> I think the chances just got a lot higher than that....


Hmmmmm, That is an interesting development isn't it. :-O

But the chances of it being two coworkers going out for a latte and carrot cake after work is still much higher that heading somewhere for carpet munching and donut bumping. 

And the chances of tem being each other's coconspirator and confidant is still higher as well. 

But I do think that having the PI close on their tails is a good idea either way.


----------



## Resik2

OP Iknow what she’s doing is disrepectful by her behavior , but do you have a single shred of evidence she is cheating on you? And just because she’s behaving this way does not mean you should! Engage, ask questions about what is going on, tell her you feel like things are going bad between “us” sometime you have to be the bigger person and communicate. It does not mean you don’t keep the PI on call, but good God man, ask! She is your wife, talk to her!


----------



## re16

My assumption is this is during work, and JPs wife's car is at work still. Getting picked up around the corner tells me they don't want to be seen leaving the parking lot together and they are trying to hide the fact that they are together.

Maybe Pacific time zone?

JP said she gets home around 6pm.

And they are not technically co workers since they work at different companies...


----------



## JayPau

Robert22205 said:


> Where or who is your wife supposed to be with tonight??
> 
> Did she text you that she was going to be late?


At home. I haven't talked or texted with her.


----------



## JayPau

Resik2 said:


> OP Iknow what she’s doing is disrepectful by her behavior , but do you have a single shred of evidence she is cheating on you? And just because she’s behaving this way does not mean you should! Engage, ask questions about what is going on, tell her you feel like things are going bad between “us” sometime you have to be the bigger person and communicate. It does not mean you don’t keep the PI on call, but good God man, ask! She is your wife, talk to her!


Sir, I have to ask if you've read all of my posts in this thread. I have tried to reach out to my wife several teams without being accusatory. Her replies are that nothing is wrong and that's all in my head. As if all of changes I've seen right in front of my eyes are imaginary. She's proving each and every day that she's a very sneaky lady and a compulsive liar.


----------



## JayPau

The PI has confirmed they're at Mia's house. He asked what street she lives on and I answered him. Only her car is parked there. Can't they have lunch closer to their offices. I mean there's dozens of restaurants to choose from.


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> At home. I haven't talked or texted with her.


This is why you need GPS on her phone location - got to turn on the find my friends for you next time you have hers.

This is not invasive like monitoring software at all - its built into iphone.


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> The PI has confirmed they're at Mia's house. He asked what street she lives on and I answered him. Only her car is parked there. Can't they have lunch closer to their offices. I mean there's dozens of restaurants to choose from.


Maybe lunch is the next stop. If you text her now about something unrelated, will she respond right away?


----------



## Robert22205

Oh...this is lunch? Don't know what time zone you're in.


----------



## Robert22205

How long is the drive to Mia's house? Is it out of the way?
Does Mia have kids living at home?


----------



## JayPau

re16 said:


> Maybe lunch is the next stop. If you text her now about something unrelated, will she respond right away?


probably, but given the circumstances, who knows


----------



## JayPau

Robert22205 said:


> Oh...this is lunch? Don't know what time zone you're in.


We're in Hawaii, so it's 2pm our time


----------



## re16

So when she gets home tonight, its going to hard to keep your cool, but you should.

I would start with asking what she did today to see if she lies. She was supposed to be very busy with the boss out of town, but she has spent hours talking to and with Mia.

It would be a little risky to confront if the PI only knows that they went to her house.

It is not rock solid proof of anything, except for maybe lying.


----------



## JayPau

Robert22205 said:


> How long is the drive to Mia's house? Is it out of the way?
> Does Mia have kids living at home?


I would say maybe 15 minutes. It's about 4 to 5 miles away from their offices. She has two kids and they're about the same age as mine. I'm not sure when her kids get home, tho.


----------



## JayPau

So much for the boss being out of town and being overworked while he's gone. She has plenty of time to take a trip to her friend's house miles away from work. For what? I don't know.


----------



## Luminous

JayPau said:


> So much for the boss being out of town and being overworked while he's gone. She has plenty of time to take a trip to her friend's house miles away from work. For what? I don't know.


I echo others comments here, that when she gets home just casually ask how her day was. The more information you get the better you become at seeing patterns.

One foot after the other mate, this will NOT be forever


----------



## Marc878

Resik2 said:


> OP Iknow what she’s doing is disrepectful by her behavior , but do you have a single shred of evidence she is cheating on you? And just because she’s behaving this way does not mean you should! Engage, ask questions about what is going on, tell her you feel like things are going bad between “us” sometime you have to be the bigger person and communicate. It does not mean you don’t keep the PI on call, but good God man, ask! She is your wife, talk to her!


If you've seen many of these situations the truth is hard to come by. Talking for the most part gets you nothing.


----------



## Marc878

Keep calm, cool and collected. It might be a good idea to ask about her day or nonchalantly ask her where she's been if she's late.


----------



## Luminous

Resik2 said:


> OP Iknow what she’s doing is disrepectful by her behavior , but do you have a single shred of evidence she is cheating on you? And just because she’s behaving this way does not mean you should! Engage, ask questions about what is going on, tell her you feel like things are going bad between “us” sometime you have to be the bigger person and communicate. It does not mean you don’t keep the PI on call, but good God man, ask! She is your wife, talk to her!


I'm going to make a guess that you have not been in the OP's position.

Someone in his position needs to walk a very fine line between communicating, and 'showing his hand' out on the table for her to see (and abuse if up to no good).

People who cheat are generally master manipulators and if you give an inch they will take a mile. I wish it weren't the case, but there is far too much evidence in the world to support this.


----------



## Robert22205

Among other things, one of the casual daily topics in my house is what I did for lunch.

Would it be out of place or suspicious for you to ask her something like: "Did you go anywhere special for lunch? (...where?)"
And then see if she lies about going to Mia's house.


----------



## JayPau

It's been more than an hour and she's still at her house. I'm going to wait and see where this goes, if anything. Then I'll think about how I'll approach this with input from you guys.


----------



## Marc878

If the PI is there they should be able to get their interaction after. 

It could be an innocent playing hooky from work while the boss is away.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions yet.


----------



## re16

Do you ever call her office? Maybe call over there and ask to speak to her and see if they tell you where she went, at least whatever she told them - like I'm going to the doctor or some other excuse.

Seems odd to be out of the office for over an hour at 2pm.


----------



## oldshirt

Resik2 said:


> OP Iknow what she’s doing is disrepectful by her behavior , but do you have a single shred of evidence she is cheating on you? And just because she’s behaving this way does not mean you should! Engage, ask questions about what is going on, tell her you feel like things are going bad between “us” sometime you have to be the bigger person and communicate. It does not mean you don’t keep the PI on call, but good God man, ask! She is your wife, talk to her!


You are presuming that she is a good person of good character and a sincere concern for protecting and preserving the sanctity of the marriage and will cooperate fully and honestly with his questions and expressions of concern. 

There are several fundamental flaws with that assumption in this scenario. One is that this has been a fairly sudden change in behavior the last several months and during that time she has shown a pattern of deceptive and dishonest behavior and she has stonewalled and gaslighted him and shown clear DARVO responses to the times he has questioned her about things. (if you are not family with the term DARVO look it up. It is an almost universal tactic used by cheaters when asked about their behavior) 

The other fundamental flaw with simply asking is cheaters lie. About everything. All the time. 

They lie, they deceive, the deflect and they manipulate. 

These are not good people and they are not invested in protecting and preserving the sanctity of the marriage and they do not care about their BS's feelings. 

They are self-serving and self-centered and concerned only with their own fun and enjoyment at the expense of those that would be hurt by their actions. 

All asking does is give them the head's up that the BS is suspicious and that will result in them going deeper underground and covering their tracks better making it harder to discover their activities. 

If these were open and honest people, they would simply say they had sex on the boss' desk that day when their BS asked them how work was that day.


----------



## oldshirt

JayPau said:


> It's been more than an hour and she's still at her house. I'm going to wait and see where this goes, if anything. Then I'll think about how I'll approach this with input from you guys.


As much as I would love to say, "do this and do that....." the best course of action is probably to stay the course and do nothing and trust in the process and let the professional investigators to the detective work. 


You are paying big money for a professional that knows more about infidelity and the tactics of cheaters than all of us put together so don't screw things up by jumping the gun and trying to freelance and let the PI gather the evidence. 

That is probably the hardest thing to do but probably the most prudent.


----------



## Marc878

^^^^^ good advice don't blow it now


----------



## cp3o

Probably not possible but is there any way you can contact Mia's H without raising suspicion, a question about a social event maybe - it might be interesting to know where he is.


----------



## JayPau

oldshirt said:


> As much as I would love to say, "do this and do that....." the best course of action is probably to stay the course and do nothing and trust in the process and let the professional investigators to the detective work.
> 
> 
> You are paying big money for a professional that knows more about infidelity and the tactics of cheaters than all of us put together so don't screw things up by jumping the gun and trying to freelance and let the PI gather the evidence.
> 
> That is probably the hardest thing to do but probably the most prudent.


I don't have any intention of doing something stupid. I will wait and see what transpires.


----------



## oldshirt

JayPau said:


> I don't have any intention of doing something stupid. I will wait and see what transpires.


I'm sure it's torture but its the best thing to do.


----------



## JayPau

cp3o said:


> Probably not possible but is there any way you can contact Mia's H without raising suspicion, a question about a social event maybe - it might be interesting to know where he is.



Very risky! I'm not going there. His car is not at their house. What might be interesting to find out is if Mia and her hubby have split up.


----------



## JayPau

They have left Mia's house. Let's see if they head back to their offices.


----------



## cp3o

misread your post - or read before you edited.


----------



## Marc878

Did the PI notice any type of interaction?


----------



## Goose54

If Mia is the OW, in all the time you’ve had her survaied, I would think there would be some form of PDA. Especially in the car to and from Mia’s house, that is a “safe place”, but the fact she went around the corner to be picked up screams...


----------



## JayPau

Ok, this is what I know. My wife was dropped off in a different spot from where she was picked up. This "spot" has covered parking and it's a bit dark. The PI's did see them kiss several times before my wife existed Mia's car. These kisses were not ones you would expect between even close friends. This was photographed. Another interesting observation was that my wife was not wearing her ring when she walked back to her office.

At this point, it's quite clear they are involved in a relationship. I think they didn't embrace or kiss in previous encounters because there were a lot of people around. It would have been very easy for someone they know professionally to see them doing such. I'm shocked she's with a woman. She has never been one to say supportive things about gays or lesbians in the past. 

It's hard for me to know exactly how long this has been going on. The PI's don't feel this is a new relationship. Based on how careful they planned things today, they have done this before. Or, they have been doing this for sometime.

I have a lot to sort through. This is going to be rough


----------



## Marc878

Geese Sorry man. It didn't take long before you got it.

You should inform her husband right before you do any confrontation. He's obviously in the dark wondering what the hell is going on like you were.


----------



## TDSC60

JayPau said:


> Ok, this is what I know. My wife was dropped off in a different spot from where she was picked up. This "spot" has covered parking and it's a bit dark. The PI's did see them kiss several times before my wife existed Mia's car. These kisses were not ones you would expect between even close friends. This was photographed. Another interesting observation was that my wife was not wearing her ring when she walked back to her office.
> 
> At this point, it's quite clear they are involved in a relationship. I think they didn't embrace or kiss in previous encounters because there were a lot of people around. It would have been very easy for someone they know professionally to see them doing such. I'm shocked she's with a woman. She has never been one to say supportive things about gays or lesbians in the past.
> 
> It's hard for me to know exactly how long this has been going on. The PI's don't feel this is a new relationship. Based on how careful they planned things today, they have done this before. Or, they have been doing this for sometime.
> 
> I have a lot to sort through. This is going to be rough


They spent about 2 hours alone at Mia's house? Then making out in the car?

You have your answer.

If you have not done so, talk to a lawyer about how divorce will look. I know nothing of the laws there.

I bet the relationship started a few months before you noticed her acting weird at home. Definitely not a new thing.

Make sure to check for her ring when she gets home. Then call Mia's husband and get him to look for her ring in the bathroom of their house (or in the bedroom).


----------



## Marc878

JayPau said:


> Ok, this is what I know. My wife was dropped off in a different spot from where she was picked up. This "spot" has covered parking and it's a bit dark. The PI's did see them kiss several times before my wife existed Mia's car. These kisses were not ones you would expect between even close friends. This was photographed. Another interesting observation was that my wife was not wearing her ring when she walked back to her office.
> 
> At this point, it's quite clear they are involved in a relationship. I think they didn't embrace or kiss in previous encounters because there were a lot of people around. It would have been very easy for someone they know professionally to see them doing such. I'm shocked she's with a woman. She has never been one to say supportive things about gays or lesbians in the past.
> 
> It's hard for me to know exactly how long this has been going on. The PI's don't feel this is a new relationship. Based on how careful they planned things today, they have done this before. Or, they have been doing this for sometime.
> 
> I have a lot to sort through. *This is going to be rough*


Not as rough as your gut screaming at you not knowing what was going on.

Plan your confrontation carefully. Strength is key. You will probably get blameshifting that you caused her affair. That's BS. She's made a very willing conscious decision to have the affair. It's all on her.

If you think back and now check your phone records you can probably determine the length of it.

Don't give up your sources. Do not back off because now you know the truth.

I'm sorry to say if she's a lesbian your marriage is probably gone. Take into consideration there may be no way to save this.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

When you confront make sure you have a VAR on you to document her version 1 of the story You can listen later to pick up details you may have missed while shocked or astounded.


----------



## Robert22205

Do you need more evidence?

I think you should step back and catch your breath. See a doctor or 24 hour emergency clinic for meds to control anxiety. Tell your wife you have the flu to stall for time.

It's too soon to consider R or D .... give yourself at least 90 days to decide. 

VAR the car before you confront. Maybe VAR the confrontation too.

None of this mess is your fault and you don't deserve this. Whatever her reason for cheating. Her decision to cheat is a 100% on her. If possible, I suggest serving her with divorce papers tomorrow at work. And simultaneously prepare to expose her to friends and family. Move her stuff to the spare bedroom.

First she'll be angry and try to call you insane, then she'll cry and beg (hoping to get your sympathy) and ask for another chance etc. You can't believe a word she says at this time. Treat her as if she's addicted to drugs and no longer in control of herself.


----------



## Marc878

Do not put yourself in the position of letting her decide your fate.

Unless you're going to file for D it should be a quick her or me and have a list ready of requirements for you to consider Reconcilliation. 

If she's not willing to do what you need at this time I'd file. If not you will get strung along and played badly.

Plan this wisely. You'll know if she's R material or not. If she's not you'll just be wasting your time.

Good luck and keep posting you'll get the advice you need to handle this. Sorry it turned out this way

Take care


----------



## Resik2

Man I am sorry. This does suck.


----------



## Marc878

For gods sake don't offer R or jump into MC upfront.


----------



## Marc878

Resik2 said:


> Man I am sorry. This does suck.


Yes and no amount of talking would have gotten him anything except a longer stay in infidelity limbo hell. 

I'll say one thing for her she's exceptionally good at deception, cheating and covering her tracks.

Which one wonders where'd she learn all that? This may not be her first rodeo


----------



## Cynthia

Well, I'll have to say this is an unusual case. I'm sorry that you're in this place.



JayPau said:


> The lingerie she has bought has not been kept a secret from me. She was worn some of it to bed with me. She wears the lace undies to work these, she never did that before.





JayPau said:


> While our sex has been more frequent, there is not a lot of kissing. She talks a lot more dirty and and enjoys giving oral more now.


It appears that your wife is bisexual. This doesn't sounds like lesbian behavior. Why would she be wearing sexy lingerie only for you and enjoying oral sex with you more? Because she's not getting the sexual satisfaction from her girlfriend that she gets from you, but she gets worked up with her girlfriend and has her emotional needs met by the girlfriend. That is my guess from observing bi-sexual women.

I don't know what you want to do. Is it over for you or would you consider working things out if she stops and works through this with you? I seriously doubt she wants to leave you based on what you've told us.


Marc878 said:


> Yes and no amount of talking would have gotten him anything except a longer stay in infidelity limbo hell.
> 
> I'll say one thing for her she's exceptionally good at deception, cheating and covering her tracks.
> 
> Which one wonders where'd she learn all that? This may not be her first rodeo


 Your wife is obviously a closeted bisexual. It's possible she's been doing this all along. Have you had other jags where she was distant from you and you wondered what was wrong?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Wow, I am honestly shocked, I was not expecting this! JP do you have photos as evidence? I think evidence is going to be important when you confront. I’m so sorry this is happening, good for you for following your gut. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FieryHairedLady

So sorry to hear the update. Glad you know now what’s up.

What are your plans?


----------



## faithfulman

Wow, this is a rough turn.of events.

I am a mountain of evidence type of guy.

Have you run Fonelab on her phone? I think we discussed it earlier, but I forget if you tried.

At this point, I would just nab her phone in the middle of the night or maybe if she just leaves it on a table where can grab it and do a recovery in a locked.room or somewhere out of the house.

Or if she has synced her phone to her computer, run Fonelab on those, you'll find some stuff.


----------



## Kamstel

Cheating is cheating, whether it is with a man or another woman!

Stay strong, accept ZERO blame, and move forward confident in what you know and what you know you have to do


----------



## Decorum

JP you can never be a woman. 

On some level this puts her desires and needs out of reach for you.

There is likely a strong emotional connection as well.

How can she deny herself after this without becoming frustrated and resentful. I don't see how reconciling could be successful after this no matter how sincerely she wants it. 

Be aware she may not want it.

Also be aware that this may have started as a MFM threesome with Mia's husband and progressed into a relationship between the two of them.


----------



## JustWavingNotDrowning

Decorum said:


> On some level this puts her desires and needs out of reach for you.


JP so sorry to see you in this mess. Please start looking at IC for you and then your kids. Decorum hits a key point. In my twenties I watched one of my mother's lovely friends unravel as she slowly came to realise her 2nd husband was gay (not even bisexual) and that his "friends" who she would cook for and entertain were lovers. She had 2 sons roughly the same age as yours. This lady always said the sense of utter frustration that she could never be what he needed and that her life with him was essentially to provide "cover" drove her to drink and eventually treatment through the help of friends and her, by-then, adult sons. Please don't try to do this on your own.

My thoughts will be with you and your kids.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Decorum said:


> JP you can never be a woman.
> 
> On some level this puts her desires and needs out of reach for you.
> 
> There is likely a strong emotional connection as well.
> 
> How can she deny herself after this without becoming frustrated and resentful. I don't see how reconciling could be successful after this no matter how sincerely she wants it.
> 
> Be aware she may not want it.
> 
> Also be aware that *this may have started as a MFM threesome* with Mia's husband and progressed into a relationship between the two of them.



I assume you mean FMF threesome?

OP, you will need to think this through very carefully. If your wife is indeed bisexual (or perhaps even lesbian in transition to a new lifestyle?), this would potentially be a risk for future conflict even if you ever did reconcile. Her unmet desires for another woman would be a thorn in your marriage's side.


----------



## cp3o

Bugg**.

Please discuss the situation with a lawyer you trust and seriously consider any advice given. 

Perhaps you should act as though R is not an option, protecting your finances etc. as though D is inevitable? As an ex (part-time) debt collector I can assure you that it is always possible to soften one's approach if subsequent information justifies doing so - the opposite, starting nice and getting tough, almost never works.

As to why - sometimes such behaviour has its roots in school/college relationships and subsequent heterosexual behaviour may be an honest attempt to "grow out of it". As a society we mess with kids minds about sexuality and gender - then wonder why, when they become adults, they have difficulties fitting into the artificial constructs we, often via control systems such as religion, have decided suit our simplistic stereotypes. 

I guess I'm saying she may, or may not, be as confused and fearful as you have a right to be.


----------



## OutofRetirement

The lack of texting while they are together is another fairly big clue.

Based on the few instances you know, it is an extremely emotional affair. They go out together and spend a lot of time together and are in constant communication without sex. In a male-female affair, the guy almost always presses for sex in the car or a hotel every single encounter. In female-female affairs who are conventionally married, the two women almost always claim they are just really, really close friends and the making out and even sex is not an affair,, just how really close friends act. Heck, that even happens sometimes when it's a female-male affair.

Have you thought about a plan yet? Do you want to keep using the PI to see if there is anythingse going on? I'd say to see the pictures before deciding to continue or not with the PI.


----------



## Kamstel

Is cheating a dealbreaker?

If so, why not just have her served at work asap?


----------



## oldshirt

@JayPau honest question for you - if it does turn out that she and Mia are in a romantic/sexual affair, does the fact it is another woman make any difference for you and is it a deal-breaker for you or are you somewhat OK if it is another woman?

For some people an affair is an affair and cheating is cheating and the gender of the AP makes no difference. 

For others, a woman-woman thang on the side is no big deal as long as things are still going ok at home and things stay within certain boundaries. 

What is YOUR take on this?


----------



## manwithnoname

oldshirt said:


> @JayPau honest question for you - if it does turn out that she and Mia are in a romantic/sexual affair, does the fact it is another woman make any difference for you and is it a deal-breaker for you or are you somewhat OK if it is another woman?
> 
> For some people an affair is an affair and cheating is cheating and the gender of the AP makes no difference.
> 
> For others, a woman-woman thang on the side is no big deal as long as things are still going ok at home and things stay within certain boundaries.
> 
> What is YOUR take on this?


Other than her being secretive.... 

OP says sex was more intense, but she was distant at other times.

If she was a woodworker, you could argue that she prefers tongue and groove (or tongue _in_ groove) and also dowels for joinery.


----------



## Chaparral

Assuming the PI is sure she is in an affair with this woman, it’s odd that your wife actually told you the OW was suspected of having an affair. Of course that may have been a huge red herring to convince you she could not possibly be in an affair with her.

I would consider having your PI notify the other husband about what is going on and then see what the fallout is and go from there.


----------



## oldshirt

manwithnoname said:


> Other than her being secretive....
> 
> OP says sex was more intense, but she was distant at other times.
> 
> If she was a woodworker, you could argue that she prefers tongue and groove (or tongue _in_ groove) and also dowels for joinery.


It comes down to his own temperments and values etc, For some people the gender of the AP does not mean a hill of beans and cheating is cheating and is a deal breaker regardless of gender and orientation. 

For others gender makes a fundamental difference. 

In this case his complaints were that she was on the phone all the time and was acting deceptive around her phone and lying about mundane things. However she was otherwise maintaining all normal home and family functions and the sex between them had become more frequent and intense and she was a lot more oral. 

If he considers cheating as cheating without regard to gender, then this could be a deal breaker on principle alone. 

But if he considers woman/woman contact as a fundamentally different concept and could institute some boundaries and guidelines such as not spending all her free time on the phone and being more engaged with him and the family on family time in exchange for her being able to get with Mia at certain times, it may be a workable thing. 

Some people don't consider woman/woman as cheating at all and are ok with it. Others see it as just as bad if not even worse than a male/female affair. 

That is why I am asking him what his own personal beliefs and temperments and values are if it does turn out that this Mia is the AP.


----------



## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> if it does turn out that this Mia is the AP.


And we need to keep in mind there are still some unanswered questions. 

Is Mia truly an AP and they are having actual sex when they get the chance or are they just somewhat bad employees that sneak out of work on a Friday afternoon for a bottle of Moscato while the boss is out of town?

The PI said their kiss was not like with a regular friend. Does that mean they were making out with tongue for 10 minutes or does it mean they are more affectionate than typical adult women and held a good by smack an extra 1/2 second after having an afternoon getaway and a shared bottle of Moscato on company time?

Are they both cheating with male AP's and Mia's house is the designated "safe house" where they commiserate with each and maybe even meet with their real APs? Someone even brought up if this is a 3way type thing with Mia and her H. that is a long shot but I am the one that said the chances of Mia being the AP was 0.0000001%.
I guess sometimes when you hear clippity clop clippity clop coming down the street, it can be zebras. 

But my point is, we have a lot of thick, dark smoke in the air and know something is afoot, but we don't have the actual smoking gun quite yet.


----------



## Decorum

Wolfman1968 said:


> I assume you mean FMF threesome?
> 
> OP, you will need to think this through very carefully. If your wife is indeed bisexual (or perhaps even lesbian in transition to a new lifestyle?), this would potentially be a risk for future conflict even if you ever did reconcile. Her unmet desires for another woman would be a thorn in your marriage's side.


You would assume correctly, lol.


----------



## OnTheFly

oldshirt said:


> ....but we don't have the actual smoking gun quite yet.


If what he knows is NOT a smoking gun, then what is??


----------



## oldshirt

OnTheFly said:


> If what he knows is NOT a smoking gun, then what is??


what we have is she went to a female coworkers house in the afternoon and then they had a kiss that was "not like normal friends".

Does that mean they made out passionately for 10 minutes or did the good by smack linger an extra 1/2 second? 

Something fishy is definitely going on here and this Mia is probably one of players if not the actual AP. 

But the way it's been worded thus far is not proof positive to me that she and Mia are having a lesbian affair. 

Were they making out or was their good by smack a little longer than the PI thought was normal?


----------



## StillSearching

I don't want to get banned. So I won't say what I'm thinking. This tread has turned very colorful as of late. 
OP, I think it's time to talk to a IC or a lawyer.


----------



## jorgegene

the gut is right again.

the gut is almost always right. 90% of the time or more.

very sorry.


----------



## sa58

If my views bother you I am sorry let me know
You are a good man and I hate to see you treated 
this way. 

Do not confront or tell anyone anything yet.
You know about her and Mia and what your PI
has told you and can show you. What about Mia
husband? He may or may not know something is going
on ? You know she is not the person you thought she was
and is cheating. She is manipulating you into thinking everything
is your imagination. Now you know it is not, sorry. 

Have your PI continue to watch and consider watching Mia husband.
Proceed with caution going forward, protect yourself first. Since your wife is 
behaving the way she is, you do not know everything that is going on yet.
I would suggest you find someway to record every interaction with your wife
and especially MIa. Sorry to say it but this may be a sign of something deeper.
As your PI told you this appears to have been planned and probably has happened 
before. 

Some betrayed spouse suffer from false accusations made against them. You never 
thought your wife would do this and do not know what else she is capable of now. 
You are a good man, husband , and father. Your concern was first for your kids, not yourself.
You deserve better than this and are at no fault. Your wife is a cheater and manipulator and
her only concern now is for herself, and her image. Not you or her family right now.

She may or may not even intend on leaving you. Only she knows he intentions. This is still 
cheating and disrespectful the way she is and has been treating you, and her family. Have enough 
evidence to prevent her from denial anymore. How long this has been going on you will never know.
Everything that has been going on you will never know. She will only confess to what you can prove.
She will still deny and blame you or something else. Do not get into a back and forth over this with her.
Not worth you time or energy, better spent with your kids, 

If you decide to divorce or stay that is up to you. Your life live it as you want.
Right now this is only about you and your safety, future, and the kids. You love 
your wife but now you see who she is. Not the person you thought she was.


Sorry you have to realize this heartbreak, take care of yourself and stay safe.
When you get enough proof I urge you to tell everybody, family work friends
etc. If you decide to try and stay she will have to quit work since she does this 
there. Exposure, to sunlight works wonders. 

Be healthy and safe sir .


----------



## re16

oldshirt said:


> what we have is she went to a female coworkers house in the afternoon and then they had a kiss that was "not like normal friends".
> 
> Does that mean they made out passionately for 10 minutes or did the good by smack linger an extra 1/2 second?
> 
> Something fishy is definitely going on here and this Mia is probably one of players if not the actual AP.
> 
> But the way it's been worded thus far is not proof positive to me that she and Mia are having a lesbian affair.
> 
> Were they making out or was their good by smack a little longer than the PI thought was normal?


Mia is obviously the AP. Massive time spent together, meals, phone calls, sneaking around to see each other at her house, not wanting others to see them together, kissing.

Seriously, if this was a male it wouldn't even be a question.

The thing to keep in mind here is the deception and emotional commitment that is happening is the same.

The questions that JP will need to answer for us to give him advice are:

Is this enough info to confront or will you dig deeper for catch them in the act / hard written evidence etc.?

Is this a reconciliation or divorce situation for him?


----------



## oldshirt

re16 said:


> Mia is obviously the AP. Massive time spent together, meals, phone calls, sneaking around to see each other at her house, not wanting others to see them together, kissing.
> 
> Seriously, if this was a male it wouldn't even be a question.
> 
> The thing to keep in mind here is the deception and emotional commitment that is happening is the same.
> 
> The questions that JP will need to answer for us to give him advice are:
> 
> Is this enough info to confront or will you dig deeper for catch them in the act / hard written evidence etc.?
> 
> Is this a reconciliation or divorce situation for him?



There is obviously something going on with Mia and she is a player in what is happening. But whether she is an actual AP or the one and only AP remains to be seen IMHO. 

Other that, everything else you said is what I have said as well.


----------



## michzz

I am not convinced that the female friend is an affair partner. Female friendships where they endlessly go over every detail of their lives is WAY different than the typical male friendships.

That said, it is a reasonable assumption that one or the other is using their friendship to support some aspect of their lives that they do not share with the OP. The secretive nature of it is troubling.

BTW, my wife has a female friend that she met when they both were toddlers. They are STILL best friends more than 50 years later. They have long, drawn out telephone calls every friggin day. I would hate to be the PI that listens to those calls. 

Just how many ways can two women discuss their grandkids clothes?

Unless of course what I hear is designed to throw me off the chase?


----------



## OnTheFly

Jay, consider keeping a VAR on you at all times. Not knowing her level of lesbian militancy, you could easily be falsely accused of something. Protect yourself, always be recording (ABR).


----------



## personofinterest

michzz said:


> I am not convinced that the female friend is an affair partner. Female friendships where they endlessly go over every detail of their lives is WAY different than the typical male friendships.
> 
> That said, it is a reasonable assumption that one or the other is using their friendship to support some aspect of their lives that they do not share with the OP. The secretive nature of it is troubling.
> 
> BTW, my wife has a female friend that she met when they both were toddlers. They are STILL best friends more than 50 years later. They have long, drawn out telephone calls every friggin day. I would hate to be the PI that listens to those calls.
> 
> Just how many ways can two women discuss their grandkids clothes?
> 
> Unless of course what I hear is designed to throw me off the chase?


Do they tongue kiss in the car?


----------



## OnTheFly

Why is it assumed Jay’s P.I. can’t decipher human interaction? Is he infallible, no, did he get his P.I. license in a Cracker Jack box, no.


----------



## oldshirt

OnTheFly said:


> Why is it assumed Jay’s P.I. can’t decipher human interaction? Is he infallible, no, did he get his P.I. license in a Cracker Jack box, no.


depending on individual state requirements, some self-proclaimed PIs don't even need a Cracker Jack box license. 

And even the places that do require some form of registry can vary widely on what requirements one needs to call themselves a PI. 

Some PIs are former police detectives and professional licensed insurance investigators and such. But there are also a lot of simple Joe Blows that filled out the state application and got some kind of certificate printed out of the back of magazine and have virtually no training or background in investigative work at all.


----------



## Stillasamountain

personofinterest said:


> Do they tongue kiss in the car?



And do they scurry around, hiding their interactions?


----------



## re16

@CouldItBeSo had a thread a ways back that was kinda similar. Wife eventually left him for her female physical trainer.

He didn't get hard proof and the wife denied and denied until the bitter end. The lack of hard proof turned into a massive problem.

Similar situation in that a lot of the posters denied the possibility of a female AP.

This thread shows how important it is to get hard evidence or just simply file to end the affair.

I think the other husband is an asset, JP knows other husband is suspicious based on what PI heard Mia say, I would make contact with him.

Other husband coming down on Mia might just end the affair.


----------



## OnTheFly

oldshirt said:


> OnTheFly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it assumed Jay’s P.I. can’t decipher human interaction? Is he infallible, no, did he get his P.I. license in a Cracker Jack box, no.
> 
> 
> 
> depending on individual state requirements, some self-proclaimed PIs don't even need a Cracker Jack box license.
> 
> And even the places that do require some form of registry can vary widely on what requirements one needs to call themselves a PI.
> 
> Some PIs are former police detectives and professional licensed insurance investigators and such. But there are also a lot of simple Joe Blows that filled out the state application and got some kind of certificate printed out of the back of magazine and have virtually no training or background in investigative work at all.
Click to expand...

You have unassailable optimism!

Not sure if it’s naïveté or everyone else is just missing something obvious?

(But, please don’t tell me you think OJ Simpson is still looking for the real killers!!)


----------



## GusPolinski

JayPau said:


> Hi! I'm a 45 years old, my wife is 42 and we have two kids, 14 and 12. We first met in the mid 90s and got married in 2003. Our time together has been quite good. We enjoyed being together and doing lots of activities with our kids and relatives on both sides of our families. My wife and I rarely fought, but when we did we were able to make up and settle things without any resentment.
> 
> Things have changed over the last several months and this is why I am here asking for feedback and advice. There has been a number of changes in my wife's behavior going back to about last September (2018). Here are the changes I have observed: distance from me except during sex, she seems very distracted, spends more time on her iphone messaging or texting, quickly puts her phone down when I come near her, spends a lot of time on Facebook, deletes browser history, spends more time grooming herself, bought a lot more new clothes (including Victoria's Secret undies), rarely looks me in the eyes anymore, sex has been more frequent and intense, lies about all sorts of mundane things.
> 
> What has not changed: she still comes home at the same time after work, she still smiles at times, she does her usual things around the house that she's always done (likes to cook). I sense that something is very wrong and it's eating my guts.
> 
> I have asked her several times if everything is okay. How is work and so forth. She keeps saying there is nothing wrong and it's all in my head. In fact, she becomes defensive without yelling at me. I'm convinced she's hiding something. Our cell bill shows very little activity on her phone as far as texts and calls go. It does not add up, she texts/messages a lot. I have not seen any messaging apps on her phone, so I'm not sure how she's messaging others.
> 
> My wife has never gave me any reason to doubt her love for me, but her behavior is quite alarming. I want to know the truth then move on from there. Thank you for your insight!


Having read just the initial post, I’m going to say yes, she’s cheating.


----------



## cp3o

_Do not confront or tell anyone anything yet.
You know about her and Mia and what your PI
has told you and can show you. What about Mia
husband? He may or may not know something is going
on ? _

I'd go along with finding out as much as possible - you haven't excluded her boss yet.

It's easy to overthink the knowledge you have until it can be placed in a solid context - for your future mental condition I'd recommend you do nothing to reveal what has been found out until you have some confidence that you know there is unlikely to be further ramifications - otherwise you may find closure more elusive.


----------



## JayPau

It's been a tough 16 hours. My head and heart are a mess. I do feel some relief knowing I'm not crazy. I know what I have been seeing for several months has been "real". I did not sleep much. So much crap spinning in my head. I will start with what I have not done so far:

I did not confront my wife, I have not told Mia's husband, I have not contacted a therapist, I have not been tested for STD's

Last night my wife did not seem all that tired. She was acting the same way she has been for months. She tried kissing me and I let her, but I had ZERO interest. Again, she was privately messaging quite a bit last night. Of course, her ring was back on her finger. Then comes another clue, the wife of the boss will be in their office today to help out. WTH? Apparently, she does this from time to time. I didn't know this. Does this mean my wife is planning another date with Mia in the a.m. or p.m.?

Getting another sneaky suspicion, I quietly contact the PI again. While the pictures tell a lot, and I mean a lot, I need to be 100% sure. If these pictures were of a man and a women, everyone would be saying cheaters! So, the surveillance started again at 7:30 am my time and will go on today as long as needed.

Then this morning, my wife did something strange. She took the same undies she wore yesterday out of the hamper and wore them to work (on her date) today. Why? Of course, she thinks I didn't notice this as I walked out of our bedroom right before she hit the shower.

I want 100% proof this is indeed an affair and it's the only one. I feel the PI can prove this. Some of you questioned his credentials and experience. He has been doing it for 30 years and he's caught a lot cheaters. 

I plan on finding out where Mia's husband is the next time my wife and her are together. Which I expect to happen today. I can do this by using No Caller ID to his office. If he answers, I'll hang up. Once I feel I have 100% proof, I will do the following:

Confront my wife while using a VAR, tell Mia's husband, seek out the best divorce attorney, get tested for STD's and make sure our money does not disappear.

As crappy as these last several months have been, I feel some relief. I was fully expecting something, just not another woman. It doesn't matter if it's another woman. My wife lied to me for months and months. She went to great lengths to hide this. At this time I do not see us staying married. This is just too much to overcome. If it's a divorce, I want it done as quickly as possible. I'm not interested in embarrasing my wife or Mia. I want the best exist plan for me and my kids. I guess damage control is the name of the game.


----------



## oldshirt

OnTheFly said:


> You have unassailable optimism!
> 
> Not sure if it’s naïveté or everyone else is just missing something obvious?
> 
> (But, please don’t tell me you think OJ Simpson is still looking for the real killers!!)


I'm not sure where any of that is coming from. 

I am just saying that in many areas there are very little or even no professional requirements or standards of licensing private investigators. 

In some places literally anyone can hang a shingle over the door and call themselves a PI. 

It could be just some guy that is otherwise unemployed that has time on his hands to drive around following married women and then reporting back to their husbands. 

Now that all being said, there are some professional PIs that are probably the best experts in the world on cheating spouses and can sniff a WW from 10 blocks away upwind. 

I'm not saying that JP's PI is or is not a competent, professional PI that knows what he/she sees. 

I'm just saying that the world of private investigations is very unregulated with very little in the way of professional standards or requirements and that some PIs out there are following married men and women snapping photos because they couldn't hold a job with a conventional employer.


----------



## Kamstel

Glad that you have come to a decision of what the future holds for you.

Have you started to reach out to lawyers yet? If not, you may want to do that before you confront her. The earlier the lawyer is brought into the process, the better protected you (and kids) will be.

Start carrying a VAR with you whenever there is a chance you will be in the vicinity of her.

Good luck and stay strong


----------



## oldshirt

JayPau said:


> It's been a tough 16 hours. My head and heart are a mess. I do feel some relief knowing I'm not crazy. I know what I have been seeing for several months has been "real". I did not sleep much. So much crap spinning in my head. I will start with what I have not done so far:
> 
> I did not confront my wife, I have not told Mia's husband, I have not contacted a therapist, I have not been tested for STD's
> 
> Last night my wife did not seem all that tired. She was acting the same way she has been for months. She tried kissing me and I let her, but I had ZERO interest. Again, she was privately messaging quite a bit last night. Of course, her ring was back on her finger. Then comes another clue, the wife of the boss will be in their office today to help out. WTH? Apparently, she does this from time to time. I didn't know this. Does this mean my wife is planning another date with Mia in the a.m. or p.m.?
> 
> Getting another sneaky suspicion, I quietly contact the PI again. While the pictures tell a lot, and I mean a lot, I need to be 100% sure. If these pictures were of a man and a women, everyone would be saying cheaters! So, the surveillance started again at 7:30 am my time and will go on today as long as needed.
> 
> Then this morning, my wife did something strange. She took the same undies she wore yesterday out of the hamper and wore them to work (on her date) today. Why? Of course, she thinks I didn't notice this as I walked out of our bedroom right before she hit the shower.
> 
> I want 100% proof this is indeed an affair and it's the only one. I feel the PI can prove this. Some of you questioned his credentials and experience. He has been doing it for 30 years and he's caught a lot cheaters.
> 
> I plan on finding out where Mia's husband is the next time my wife and her are together. Which I expect to happen today. I can do this by using No Caller ID to his office. If he answers, I'll hang up. Once I feel I have 100% proof, I will do the following:
> 
> Confront my wife while using a VAR, tell Mia's husband, seek out the best divorce attorney, get tested for STD's and make sure our money does not disappear.
> 
> As crappy as these last several months have been, I feel some relief. I was fully expecting something, just not another woman. It doesn't matter if it's another woman. My wife lied to me for months and months. She went to great lengths to hide this. At this time I do not see us staying married. This is just too much to overcome. If it's a divorce, I want it done as quickly as possible. I'm not interested in embarrasing my wife or Mia. I want the best exist plan for me and my kids. I guess damage control is the name of the game.


OK that answers my question. 

In regards to your plan going forward, my suggestion is start with the lawyer and get all the facts and get your game plan in place and ducks in a row and protect your assets first so when Dday comes she doesn't empty the accounts and take off for the Bahamas or something.

Start with the lawyer and get professional legal advice first so you are doing everything by the book and have your bases covered before the **** hits the fan.


----------



## sa58

Can your PI get video not just pictures ?
That would show a lot more of their interaction
I think. When you confront her more undeniable 
proof. Remember she appears to be very good at 
manipulation, and cunning. She will use every excuse
she can, were are really close friends,I was just talking 
and trying to comfort her because of her relationship 
problems etc. I would maybe wait until the end of the 
week just to be sure thou. More evidence and to be 
extra certain. It will most likely be your fault somehow
that is what she will try and say.

When you tell Mia husband this may blow up on your wife
and depending on how he acts affect her work. Maybe plan 
on being away with the kids if needed. Do not want to run the risk of
him coming by your house in front of the kids. Tell him but plan how 
carefully. The kids don;t need any more crap. They probably feel 
something is wrong at home all ready. Mom not around and in another 
room. Most kids sense things like that.

Glad you are feeling some relief now. 
Your wife has thrown away a good life and loving 
family. Nothing will come of her AP relationship, they 
rarely survive after discovery. Sad, very very sad.
You are the kids best option a loving and caring father
wins over a cheating, manipulating person every time.

Take care sir


----------



## SnowToArmPits

JP - sorry man.

If you knew Mia's husband better, you could enlist him to surprise the two women at their home. Maybe even include you on the surprise. Seeing as how you don't know him though, this is probably a long shot to make it work. Just informing him, his reaction might be to confront his wife right away about 'the crazy story your friend's husband just told me'. 

You might be stuck with evidence of them 'only' deep kissing in Mia's car. Along with your wife's behaviour the last few months I'd don't know why you'd need more to confront and end your marriage. As others have said you could well need more evidence to get your wife to confess, she would probably string together some BS to explain kissing her friend, and stick with it.


----------



## personofinterest

here's something to remember:

The only person you need to prove the affair to is YOU. You do not have to prove to your wife she is having an affair - she already knows.

There is this almost thriller novel NEED some people have to have so much proof it will supposedly guarantee some sort of reaction from the cheater.

Even if you confront her and she denies and spins the best story ever created.....the fact remains that she is sneaking around making out with some woman.

I have to wonder sometimes if the push for more and more proof is really because it's needed or because the "audience" needs more juicy stuff. And by that I do not mean YOU, OP. I mean I think onlookers sometimes forget that this is a hurting person's life, not a movie of the week.


----------



## JayPau

personofinterest said:


> here's something to remember:
> 
> The only person you need to prove the affair to is YOU. You do not have to prove to your wife she is having an affair - she already knows.
> 
> There is this almost thriller novel NEED some people have to have so much proof it will supposedly guarantee some sort of reaction from the cheater.
> 
> Even if you confront her and she denies and spins the best story ever created.....the fact remains that she is sneaking around making out with some woman.
> 
> I have to wonder sometimes if the push for more and more proof is really because it's needed or because the "audience" needs more juicy stuff. And by that I do not mean YOU, OP. I mean I think onlookers sometimes forget that this is a hurting person's life, not a movie of the week.


I want to know as much as possible, and want to be prepared. I'm on the verge of confronting my wife. I feel having irrefutable evidence is best. It's also best I have this before I tell another man our wives are together. It's quite simple, if what happened yesterday happens again today and so on, then I'll be convinced it's a full-fledged emotional and sexual affair.


----------



## niceguy47460

The APs husband may know . she may be having sex with both of them . that does happen . i would gauge his response when you tell him . 

Let us know what pi finds out today .


----------



## personofinterest

JayPau said:


> I want to know as much as possible, and want to be prepared. I'm on the verge of confronting my wife. I feel having irrefutable evidence is best. It's also best I have this before I tell another man our wives are together. It's quite simple, if what happened yesterday happens again today and so on, then I'll be convinced it's a full-fledged emotional and sexual affair.


I can understand wanting to know for YOU. Just saying you do not need it to prove it to her or to "entertain" us with more salacious details.


----------



## JayPau

personofinterest said:


> I can understand wanting to know for YOU. Just saying you do not need it to prove it to her or to "entertain" us with more salacious details.


I thought I made it clear, I'm making sure I KNOW. I'm not trying to entertain you or the other members of this forum.


----------



## JayPau

niceguy47460 said:


> The APs husband may know . she may be having sex with both of them . that does happen . i would gauge his response when you tell him .
> 
> Let us know what pi finds out today .


I'm hoping I can rule out that possibility real soon.


----------



## PM1

Wow, sorry for your situation. I'm with you that an affair is an affair, regardless of gender. Just wanted to wish you the best as you wade through all of this. Sad, two marriages potentially ruined by these two.


----------



## personofinterest

JayPau said:


> I thought I made it clear, I'm making sure I KNOW. I'm not trying to entertain you or the other members of this forum.


I didn't mean to offend. It wasn't a slam at you at all. It's just sometimes it seems advisors want more and more detail, and well, I mean, this is your life, not their gossip column.

I apologize for not expressing myself well.


----------



## JayPau

personofinterest said:


> I didn't mean to offend. It wasn't a slam at you at all. It's just sometimes it seems advisors want more and more detail, and well, I mean, this is your life, not their gossip column.
> 
> I apologize for not expressing myself well.


It's ok! I get what you're saying now.


----------



## sa58

Jp 

Talk with your PI when confronting your wife and 
telling Mia husband, He probably has experience.
Best to know where everybody is when you do so.
This is two peoples life's and kids are involved. Your 
wife knows this also and anything could happen. After
all and sorry to say it she thinks she has you confused.
I have probably said this before and will again but my concern
is you and the kids. 

Other than this mess how are you holding up right now sir ?

Sorry this happened to you and if he is not aware sorry it happened 
to Mia husband also. Plan everything carefully PI can help, don;t go it 
alone if you can avoid it, PI has probably seen this many times just like
many of us here on TAM Lives are going to change dramatically or everyone
Protect yourself never know what could happen. 

I don;t feel sorry for your wife or Mia however just you and all of the kids involved.
Hang in there so it will be exposed and your months of torment will be over. And then 
concentrate on yourself and healing and where to go from here.

This is why I hate cheaters they cause so much pain. She could have told you she 
was not happy or wanted to be free. Then found someone else, she did not. Just 
remember that and you are not crazy or at fault, to blame or anything else.
She is !!


----------



## Marc878

niceguy47460 said:


> The APs husband may know . she may be having sex with both of them . that does happen . i would gauge his response when you tell him .
> 
> Let us know what pi finds out today .


That doesn't correlate with a previous post where the female PI over heard them talking about OW's husband suspecting her of having an affair.


----------



## Marc878

JayPau said:


> I want to know as much as possible, and want to be prepared. I'm on the verge of confronting my wife. I feel having irrefutable evidence is best. It's also best I have this before I tell another man our wives are together. It's quite simple, if what happened yesterday happens again today and so on, then I'll be convinced it's a full-fledged emotional and sexual affair.


Smart move. 

You don't have that much longer. Good job on keeping a level head when most could not.

Keep one thing in mind. You will come out of this fine. It'll suck but you will be ok. Of course you can't see that now. I get that.


----------



## re16

Great job staying calm and collected.

I think that if you want to avoid embarrassing them, and want to D, then keeping the threat of exposure will work wonders in helping you negotiate a fair divorce. I think Hawaii is a no fault state anyway so the rest of the evidence is just so you get a fuller picture of what is actually happening.

If you can do it....get all your ducks in order to be able to do the following at basically the same time:

1. Confront to see what she says.
2. Inform other husband at almost the same time you confront her so there isn't time for them to work on stories.
3. Have D papers ready to drop on her.
4. Have separate bank accounts etc ready so you can transfer half of the funds and savings etc immediately.

It will probably take a week or so to get this together if you haven't talked to an attorney yet.


----------



## oldshirt

Marc878 said:


> That doesn't correlate with a previous post where the female PI over heard them talking about OW's husband suspecting her of having an affair.


you are correct, that does not correlate. 

What it does correlate to though is that her husband has been getting suspicious as well which has caused them to have a talk about covering their tracks better. 

Once JP has the info he needs and has his ducks in a row, a meeting with Mia's H is in order.


----------



## cp3o

Not your most pressing concern I appreciate but - _Then this morning, my wife did something strange. She took the same undies she wore yesterday out of the hamper and wore them to work (on her date) today. Why?_


Maybe someone has a fetish to do with inhaling concentrated odours (a trophy maybe?). 

Perhaps they are to be given/mailed to someone as a memento - more personal but less identifiable than a photograph?

Weird thought just entered my mind - if other women are doing the same will someone will be trying to identifying whose underwear they are sniffing out of more than one odorous offering - not my scene but there is little so odd that someone doesn't do it.

It might be interesting to know if she wears them still when getting home again. 

Presumably when you find out the reason, whatever it be, it will explain her reluctance about you doing the laundry.


----------



## skerzoid

JP

1. When you confront, have everything written out so as you get emotional, which you will, it helps to keep you calm and to get your points in.

2. As this will be VARed, it will help for your lawyer to hear her responses to you inquiries.

3. As they were concerned about their husbands finding out, I would imagine that they will try to get back to their spouses. Be ready for this. It doesn't look as though they were planning to dump you for this. She will try to weasel her way back. Just sayin'. Be ready.

4. Do not expose your sources.

5. If you are planning on divorce. do not sleep with her as the judge will view this as forgiveness.

6. Stay strong, courageous, and decisive. It is the people who act decisively in these things who heal the fastest.


----------



## TDSC60

One more thing you should take care of that is often forgotten.

Remove her as beneficiary on any and all life insurance policies. Don't overlook a long term care policy that has a cash payout in event of death. 

I have several investments such as annuities that have death benefits if I pass before I can start collecting.

Create a trust for your kids and have that trust be the beneficiary.


----------



## sokillme

When you do confront her don't let her use her sexuality as an excuse. Cheating is cheating she could have told you she was a lesbian and divorced and moved on, that would have been brutal but it wouldn't have been the same demoralizing affect as her complete disregarding you as a fellow human being. 

Also don't cover for her, if you decide to divorce or if you are fighting if your kids see it don't take the blame to cover her actions, and one day when they are old enough you should tell them in an age appropriate way. You have nothing to be ashamed of. Your wife gay or not is an *******, plain and simple.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

JayPau said:


> It's been a tough 16 hours. My head and heart are a mess. I do feel some relief knowing I'm not crazy. I know what I have been seeing for several months has been "real". I did not sleep much. So much crap spinning in my head. I will start with what I have not done so far:
> 
> I did not confront my wife, I have not told Mia's husband, I have not contacted a therapist, I have not been tested for STD's
> 
> Last night my wife did not seem all that tired. She was acting the same way she has been for months. She tried kissing me and I let her, but I had ZERO interest. Again, she was privately messaging quite a bit last night. Of course, her ring was back on her finger. Then comes another clue, the wife of the boss will be in their office today to help out. WTH? Apparently, she does this from time to time. I didn't know this. Does this mean my wife is planning another date with Mia in the a.m. or p.m.?
> 
> Getting another sneaky suspicion, I quietly contact the PI again. While the pictures tell a lot, and I mean a lot, I need to be 100% sure. If these pictures were of a man and a women, everyone would be saying cheaters! So, the surveillance started again at 7:30 am my time and will go on today as long as needed.
> 
> Then this morning, my wife did something strange. She took the same undies she wore yesterday out of the hamper and wore them to work (on her date) today. Why? Of course, she thinks I didn't notice this as I walked out of our bedroom right before she hit the shower.
> 
> I want 100% proof this is indeed an affair and it's the only one. I feel the PI can prove this. Some of you questioned his credentials and experience. He has been doing it for 30 years and he's caught a lot cheaters.
> 
> I plan on finding out where Mia's husband is the next time my wife and her are together. Which I expect to happen today. I can do this by using No Caller ID to his office. If he answers, I'll hang up. Once I feel I have 100% proof, I will do the following:
> 
> _Confront my wife while using a VAR, tell Mia's husband, seek out the best divorce attorney, get tested for STD's and make sure our money does not disappear_.
> 
> As crappy as these last several months have been, I feel some relief. I was fully expecting something, just not another woman. It doesn't matter if it's another woman. My wife lied to me for months and months. She went to great lengths to hide this. At this time I do not see us staying married. This is just too much to overcome. If it's a divorce, I want it done as quickly as possible. I'm not interested in embarrasing my wife or Mia. I want the best exist plan for me and my kids. I guess damage control is the name of the game.



I think it would prudent to exercise these steps in the opposite order that you listed here plus some more steps. 

Separate accounts -> STD -> Attorney - > File for Divorce, tell Mia's husband the moment you wife is served. I suggest having your wife served while she is in her Sapphic cuddle with Mia. 

She absolutely deserves that type pf awakening after all the deceit and agony she has pit you through. She deserves to feel shame. 

You may think you can keep this quite but Hawaii is a alienation of affection state. Mia's husband could conceivably sue your wife for alienation of affection possibly putting you on the hook. 

See a lawyer first before you tell anyone and start protecting yourself from this type of action.


----------



## oldshirt

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> I think it would prudent to exercise these steps in the opposite order that you listed here plus some more steps.
> 
> Separate accounts -> STD -> Attorney - > File for Divorce, tell Mia's husband the moment you wife is served. I suggest having your wife served while she is in her Sapphic cuddle with Mia.
> 
> She absolutely deserves that type pf awakening after all the deceit and agony she has pit you through. She deserves to feel shame.
> 
> You may think you can keep this quite but Hawaii is a alienation of affection state. Mia's husband could conceivably sue your wife for alienation of affection possibly putting you on the hook.
> 
> See a lawyer first before you tell anyone and start protecting yourself from this type of action.


See a lawyer first. Period.

Divorce is a legal proceeding. Therefor get legal guidence first before taking any kind of action.


----------



## Chaparral

Your attorney can also subpoena all her social media and messages. Be surnto ask him/her. Be aware that yours can also be subpoenaed so be careful what you write.


----------



## OutofRetirement

JayPau said:


> Then this morning, my wife did something strange. She took the same undies she wore yesterday out of the hamper and wore them to work (on her date) today. Why? Of course, she thinks I didn't notice this as I walked out of our bedroom right before she hit the shower.
> 
> I want 100% proof this is indeed an affair and it's the only one. I feel the PI can prove this.
> 
> Once I feel I have 100% proof, I will do the following:
> 
> Confront my wife while using a VAR, tell Mia's husband, seek out the best divorce attorney, get tested for STD's and make sure our money does not disappear.
> 
> At this time I do not see us staying married. This is just too much to overcome. If it's a divorce, I want it done as quickly as possible. I'm not interested in embarrasing my wife or Mia. I want the best exist plan for me and my kids. I guess damage control is the name of the game.


A few considerations to think about:

1. You basically said you want to keep damage to the minimum to have an amicable divorce. If that's true, your plan is best. If you want to reconcile, or leave that option available to you, I believe it's best to play hard ball and drop a nuclear bomb on her. It's called shock and awe. Cheaters come out of their puppy-love teenage sappiness very quickly when the bomb drops on them. Not so much, sometimes not at all, when you confront and have a civilized discussion. There are some times in life where being civilized and understanding is wrong.

2. Confronting cheaters gives very little satisfaction. All they do is continue to lie, minimize, and admit only what you prove to them. Consider not confronting your wife at all. Tell the other woman's husband, give him enough evidence or assurance to believe him, let him confront his wife, then let your wife find out that way. If possible, be away from work/home and be out of touch for at least a few hours. Filing for divorce and having her served at work is even more of a shock. Telling her parents and yours takes it to another level.

3. When you confront, don't say how you found the evidence. Tell her a friend/coworker/relative saw it instead of the PI. Don't give up your source. I wouldn't tell the other woman's husband your source, either.

4. If you are fairly sure you want to divorce, don't do any of that stuff. Just tell her you're divorcing, she can have the other woman, you're not going to keep her from her one true love. Still don't give up your source, never tell about the PI, most cheaters get extremely angry being spied or snooped on, never mind having a PI follow them. It won't help the divorce, that's for sure. The divorce usually goes much better if the cheater is still in la-la fantasy land of the affair.

5. In the end, it's your marriage, your divorce, your reconciliation, and your life - and you have to be comfortable with the way you handle it. Just be aware, cheaters usually are not fair-minded people, especially with their betrayed spouse.


----------



## niceguy47460

Marc878 said:


> niceguy47460 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The APs husband may know . she may be having sex with both of them . that does happen . i would gauge his response when you tell him .
> 
> Let us know what pi finds out today .[/quot
> That doesn't correlate with a previous post where the female PI over heard them talking about OW's husband suspecting her of having an affair.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh sorry i must have missed that one . well in that case i would say blow the hole thing up . as soon as you can
Click to expand...


----------



## Wolfman1968

JayPau--

One thing I would suggest. When you confront, don't let her know what you know and do not know. Don't let her know how you found out. 

Once you have enough evidence to your satisfaction, have your wife served with divorce papers. Then, when she asks for an explanation, you tell her that you have all the evidence. She has ONE chance to come clean right now. She can tell you EVERYTHING. If anything is held back, tell her that shows you that she isn't committed to the marriage. If she tries to quiz you first, tell her NOTHING, just say that her questioning proves she is not committed to the marriage. 

If she spills all and tells all, then you can take that under advisement. To be honest, I still think it would be an insurmountable challenge to reconcile, because of the same-sex aspect; you'd never be sure she still doesn't fell that draw towards women. You'd feel like a jailer watching everything for the rest of your marriage. 

If she still tries to limit her admission to what she thinks you know, then you know she's not committed to the marriage. If she refuses to say anything, then you know that protecting herself and her affair partner is more important to her than the marriage.

You will see on this board, in many threads, that cheaters only admit to the deeds that their betrayed spouse knows about, and even then will try to minimize/explain away the information. Don't fall for that. If she doesn't know how much you know, then she doesn't know how much to limit her admission. 

Force her to decide to commit to the marriage or not. And even then, you get to decide whether you want to reconcile. 

(And in this case, I'd advise not to reconcile, for the reasons I stated above---the same-sex element introduces a need you will never be able to fulfill.)


----------



## asgdf

I am a lawyer and licensed in Hawaii. I am not looking for your business. But I just want to encourage you to talk to a lawyer before you confront your wife. 

There are a ton of benefits to getting legal advice and a good plan that your lawyer can help you develop. There are virtually no drawbacks to getting legal advice first. 

Your wife is a liar. She will almost certainly tell people lies about you once you expose her. She may lie to a judge or police to make you look bad. A lawyer can help you minimize the harm that come. Your wife already has a plan for getting caught. She has been planning it for a while. The lawyer has dealt with this before and you haven’t so please get legal advice.


----------



## oldshirt

asgdf said:


> i am a lawyer and licensed in hawaii. I am not looking for your business. But i just want to encourage you to talk to a lawyer before you confront your wife.
> 
> There are a ton of benefits to getting legal advice and a good plan that your lawyer can help you develop. There are virtually no drawbacks to getting legal advice first.
> 
> Your wife is a liar. She will almost certainly tell people lies about you once you expose her. She may lie to a judge or police to make you look bad. A lawyer can help you minimize the harm that come. Your wife already has a plan for getting caught. She has been planning it for a while. The lawyer has dealt with this before and you haven’t so please get legal advice.


this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## Chuck71

JayPau said:


> I want to know as much as possible, and want to be prepared. I'm on the verge of confronting my wife. I feel having irrefutable evidence is best. It's also best I have this before I tell another man our wives are together. It's quite simple, if what happened yesterday happens again today and so on, then I'll be convinced it's a full-fledged emotional and sexual affair.


JP...... so sorry to hear about your discovery. My gut tells me it did go sexual. But even if it hadn't "yet"

she broke your trust. You can't have love without trust....well you can but it is a very unhealthy love.

Your W is giving her emotions to another adult...... 99% of people can only be truly emotionally

invested with one person at a time. So "Mia" is more important to her than...her H and her children.

Tell her what she won.....Mia. Then tell her what she lost..... you and the kids.

Get attorney lined up, assets split, anything joint....cancel. If a person's spouse in passionately

kissing someone else....forget EA, that is a full on PA. The only people who kiss like that......are the ones

who are having intercourse as well. Expose to everyone.....before she twists it.

If you don't want to tell OWH out of fear he may be involved, blow it up but not with him.

Have the PI watch Mia's residence and if your W is there when he is.....for many hours, it is a FMF.

If Mia doesn't show there while he is home or does for brief visit....that guy is in the dark.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

I don't think Mia's hubby is in on this illicit relationship.

He is wondering WTH is going on too.


----------



## Talker67

Chuck71 said:


> JP...... so sorry to hear about your discovery. My gut tells me it did go sexual. But even if it hadn't "yet"
> 
> she broke your trust. You can't have love without trust....well you can but it is a very unhealthy love.
> 
> Your W is giving her emotions to another adult...... 99% of people can only be truly emotionally
> 
> invested with one person at a time. So "Mia" is more important to her than...her H and her children.



alright, let me jump in here and say that for me, it would make a big difference if these two women were sexual partners or not. A lot of women are BFFs....that is the way the roll. 

Also a lot of women are bisexual.

For me my decision on the whole thing would def factor in if she was bisexual vs. lesbian now, and if it were a physical relationship or not. 

I would get the PI to figure out the later....before any confronting.

If she were now lesbian...then the marriage is over. If bisexual...well a lot of people live with that....just need to establish the right boundaries.


----------



## Luminous

Talker67 said:


> If she were now lesbian...then the marriage is over. If bisexual...well a lot of people live with that....just need to establish the right boundaries.


Nope, boundaries were established when they made vows to each other.

I find it interesting how many people will excuse women being bisexual when they are supposedly in a committed heterosexual relationship/marriage.


----------



## cp3o

Luminous said:


> Nope, boundaries were established when they made vows to each other.
> 
> I find it interesting how many people will excuse women being bisexual when they are supposedly in a committed heterosexual relationship/marriage.


Boundaries are limits within which individuals operate; there is, IMO, no reason why those boundaries cannot be moved - provided all parties freely and with equal power agree the new limits. If you couldn't make any adjustment that's OK for you but others must be free to decide their own position. We are all a unique mix of nature (our inherited DNA) and nurture (our life experience). As with shoes - one fit does not suit everyone and insisting you wore my shoes might be to impose similar consequences - real and unnecessary harm.

As to excusing anyone's sexuality - we know that sexuality exists within spectra. Various degrees of male and female heterosexuality are common; they are places on a spectrum - not goals. People are what they are as much in terms of sexuality as in height or eye colour/ taste in music or drama. I don't get to complain if others don't have my blue eyes or like Marmite sarnies do I?

I don't have to excuse your religious belief or lack thereof, I don't have to excuse your preference, or otherwise, for modern art or brutalist architecture. Why should anyone feel a need for natural sexuality to be excused?

Surely it is not for us to excuse someone's differences to us - it is for us to accept them without condemnation or aggression - subject to a single rule - and, for me, that rule is pretty simple. 
If expressing one's natural character (including one's sexuality) causes no harm (physical or psychological) to others it's none of anyone else's business. Being offended is not, IMO, the same as being harmed. Feeling uncomfortable about something or being under pressure from a peer group is not, IMO, being harmed. 

We should restrict our intolerance to that which is harmful rather than that which we find (or are told to find) discomforting.


----------



## Luminous

cp3o said:


> Boundaries are limits within which individuals operate; there is, IMO, no reason why those boundaries cannot be moved - provided all parties freely and with equal power agree the new limits. If you couldn't make any adjustment that's OK for you but others must be free to decide their own position. We are all a unique mix of nature (our inherited DNA) and nurture (our life experience). As with shoes - one fit does not suit everyone and insisting you wore my shoes might be to impose similar consequences - real and unnecessary harm.
> 
> As to excusing anyone's sexuality - we know that sexuality exists within spectra. Various degrees of male and female heterosexuality are common; they are places on a spectrum - not goals. People are what they are as much in terms of sexuality as in height or eye colour/ taste in music or drama. I don't get to complain if others don't have my blue eyes or like Marmite sarnies do I?
> 
> I don't have to excuse your religious belief or lack thereof, I don't have to excuse your preference, or otherwise, for modern art or brutalist architecture. Why should anyone feel a need for natural sexuality to be excused?
> 
> Surely it is not for us to excuse someone's differences to us - it is for us to accept them without condemnation or aggression - subject to a single rule - and, for me, that rule is pretty simple.
> If expressing one's natural character (including one's sexuality) causes no harm (physical or psychological) to others it's none of anyone else's business. Being offended is not, IMO, the same as being harmed. Feeling uncomfortable about something or being under pressure from a peer group is not, IMO, being harmed.
> 
> We should restrict our intolerance to that which is harmful rather than that which we find (or are told to find) discomforting.


One little problem with your explanation there...

Your points whilst valid for the most part, do not take into account that they made vows to each other, to forsake all others. If those goal posts are to be moved, the one wanting to move them should have the decency to say so, BEFORE 'exploring'.

Saying 'everyone is different' is all good and dandy, but when those same people lack a sense of honour, transparency, and ethics, then Houston we have a problem.


----------



## Decorum

cp3o said:


> Boundaries are limits within which individuals operate; there is, IMO, no reason why those boundaries cannot be moved - provided all parties freely and with equal power agree the new limits. If you couldn't make any adjustment that's OK for you but others must be free to decide their own position. We are all a unique mix of nature (our inherited DNA) and nurture (our life experience). As with shoes - one fit does not suit everyone and insisting you wore my shoes might be to impose similar consequences - real and unnecessary harm.
> 
> As to excusing anyone's sexuality - we know that sexuality exists within spectra. Various degrees of male and female heterosexuality are common; they are places on a spectrum - not goals. People are what they are as much in terms of sexuality as in height or eye colour/ taste in music or drama. I don't get to complain if others don't have my blue eyes or like Marmite sarnies do I?
> 
> I don't have to excuse your religious belief or lack thereof, I don't have to excuse your preference, or otherwise, for modern art or brutalist architecture. Why should anyone feel a need for natural sexuality to be excused?
> 
> Surely it is not for us to excuse someone's differences to us - it is for us to accept them without condemnation or aggression - subject to a single rule - and, for me, that rule is pretty simple.
> If expressing one's natural character (including one's sexuality) causes no harm (physical or psychological) to others it's none of anyone else's business. Being offended is not, IMO, the same as being harmed. Feeling uncomfortable about something or being under pressure from a peer group is not, IMO, being harmed.
> 
> We should restrict our intolerance to that which is harmful rather than that which we find (or are told to find) discomforting.


Seems like a mighty big chip on your shoulder there friend!

Ha ha ha I had a neighbor who felt that way once (i.e. moving a boundary before agreeing upon it). He wanted part of my property to be his so he moved a boundary. He stubbornly refused to honor the surveyed boundary. Maybe had he approached me upfront to legally move the boundary we could have worked it out. 

As it was, my lawyer recommended I assert my domain, so I dug up his fence posts and tossed them into his yard. Ha ha ha I never heard a peep out of him. A threat from my lawyer got the rest done as he paid his landscapers to restore my property to the way it was before he had it sculpted.

Religion had nothing to do with it.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

@JayPau, has there been anything new?


----------



## Jus260

cp3o said:


> Boundaries are limits within which individuals operate; there is, IMO, no reason why those boundaries cannot be moved - provided all parties freely and with equal power agree the new limits. If you couldn't make any adjustment that's OK for you but others must be free to decide their own position. We are all a unique mix of nature (our inherited DNA) and nurture (our life experience). As with shoes - one fit does not suit everyone and insisting you wore my shoes might be to impose similar consequences - real and unnecessary harm.



I didn't want to quote the entire post. All of that theory is great except for the fact that she has been hiding an affair for who knows how long. That means she can't be trusted. As awesome as you may think lesbian porn is, she is obviously bisexual if she has a woman on the side and is still having sex with her husband. 

If JP were to allow her to have a girlfriend, what happens when she decides to find a new boyfriend as well? She obviously has lots of experience hiding affairs. All of this would happen after this is all exposed. She won't make the same mistakes next time she decides to hide an affair.

You can't let a porn fantasy override the fact that he is with a cheater who can't be trusted. If you want to divorce and have the XWW be a FWB with no strings attached, then go for it.


----------



## Jus260

3Xnocharm said:


> @JayPau, has there been anything new?



You know how it is. When you have a cheater dead to rights, it's almost impossible to keep it to yourself while you settle your affairs. I know I can't hide emotion.


----------



## jlg07

I just hope that he got more definitive proof from the PI -- a picture of them kissing could be explained away by his wife.


----------



## sa58

I hope it was just this one person. She was texting a lot
lots of things out there online. He has enough proof however
to confront her. Possibly two marriages and families destroyed.

I did notice he said the boss wife was coming into help at the 
office. Maybe someone has been spending extra time away from
her work also. The boss wife coming into her husbands office to
help is kinda strange.Somebody not doing there job while the boss is 
away. Doesn't care about much other than herself probably. 

I hope you are doing well JayPau this is very hard to deal with but
at least now you know something. Regardless of what anyone thinks including 
her she should of told you if this was something she had felt like doing,
whatever it is. Then you could have decided what to do, she lied, cheated,
manipulated , and had you in a great deal of pain. I know she saw that pain!!

Just like I said earlier she had her phone out so you could check it, knowing 
there would be nothing.Just like the GPS system on her car. Never moved !!
She seems to have learned a lot about covering her tracks somewhere or from
someone. Don't trust anything she says or does.

Sick little mind games she has played IMO, now you 
know.

It is still cheating even if you take your ring off also !!

I hope you are doing well sir live and be happy moving forward, your life live 
it how you want. Just be happy and free.

Our thoughts are with you. and your kids


----------



## TDSC60

jlg07 said:


> I just hope that he got more definitive proof from the PI -- a picture of them kissing could be explained away by his wife.


A quick kiss on the cheek or lips could be explained away. (No hands or arms involved)

A romantic embrace with one or the other holding on to the other, arms around the shoulders or body or holding the face is not something that can be explained away as a friendly goodbye peck. 

JayPau, what is your next move?


----------



## Chuck71

Talker67 said:


> alright, let me jump in here and say that for me, it would make a big difference if these two women were sexual partners or not. A lot of women are BFFs....that is the way the roll.
> 
> Also a lot of women are bisexual.
> 
> For me my decision on the whole thing would def factor in if she was bisexual vs. lesbian now, and if it were a physical relationship or not.
> 
> *I would get the PI to figure out the later....before any confronting.*
> 
> *If she were now lesbian...then the marriage is over. If bisexual...well a lot of people live with that....just need to establish the right boundarie*s.


1-I agree 110%

2-Lots of guys say -if you ever want to be with another woman, that's cool! can I watch?- Hell....I've said that. But when it comes down to my W or g/f giving her emotions and body to anyone else, I would not allow it.

If she did......."there's the door" As my g/f said when it was brought up (casual not where she

or I desired to) -When you give something to someone else, which you should be giving to me....that is a deal breaker-


----------



## TDSC60

Chuck71 said:


> 1-I agree 110%
> 
> 2-Lots of guys say -if you ever want to be with another woman, that's cool! can I watch?- Hell....I've said that. But when it comes down to my W or g/f giving her emotions and body to anyone else, I would not allow it.
> 
> If she did......."there's the door" As my g/f said when it was brought up (casual not where she
> 
> or I desired to) -When you give something to someone else, which you should be giving to me....that is a deal breaker-


The physical betrayal is a deal breaker for some. 

But some find the emotional betrayal hurts more. The lies, the deception, the secrets, the broken trust, basically having a second elicit relationship outside of the marriage that the betrayed is not aware of and the wayward goes to extraordinary lengths to hide.


----------



## Cynthia

cp3o said:


> We should restrict our intolerance to that which is harmful rather than that which we find (or are told to find) discomforting.


hahaha Wow. The OP is finding that this relationship has negatively impacted the marital relationship. He also did not agree to this. They made vows to each other and she has broken them. That is damage right there.


----------



## cp3o

Luminous said:


> One little problem with your explanation there...
> 
> Your points whilst valid for the most part, do not take into account that they made vows to each other, to forsake all others. If those goal posts are to be moved, the one wanting to move them should have the decency to say so, BEFORE 'exploring'.
> 
> Saying 'everyone is different' is all good and dandy, but when those same people lack a sense of honour, transparency, and ethics, then Houston we have a problem.


I absolutely agree that it is morally wrong to move the goalposts unilaterally - I never suggested that it was anything but.

However - when the situation changes the injured party has the moral right to come, if they are amenable, to an agreement which supersedes the original. That agreement may include modifying the original vows to reflect a new perception of reality - but only if all parties give informed consent.


----------



## personofinterest

cp3o said:


> I absolutely agree that it is morally wrong to move the goalposts unilaterally - I never suggested that it was anything but.
> 
> However - when the situation changes the injured party has the moral right to come, if they are amenable, to an agreement which supersedes the original. That agreement may include modifying the original vows to reflect a new perception of reality - but only if all parties give informed consent.


Yeah...nice pretzeling. But it's pretty clear. 

She cheated, she betrayed him, and the politically correct nature of blahblahsexuality is irrelevant.

This isn't a parade; it's his life, and she betrayed him.


----------



## cp3o

Decorum said:


> Seems like a mighty big chip on your shoulder there friend!
> 
> Ha ha ha I had a neighbor who felt that way once (i.e. moving a boundary before agreeing upon it). He wanted part of my property to be his so he moved a boundary. He stubbornly refused to honor the surveyed boundary. Maybe had he approached me upfront to legally move the boundary we could have worked it out.
> 
> As it was, my lawyer recommended I assert my domain, so I dug up his fence posts and tossed them into his yard. Ha ha ha I never heard a peep out of him. A threat from my lawyer got the rest done as he paid his landscapers to restore my property to the way it was before he had it sculpted.
> 
> Religion had nothing to do with it.


Please read, and understand, the first sentence you quoted.
I'll make it easy for you

_Boundaries are limits within which individuals operate; there is, IMO, no reason why those boundaries cannot be moved - *provided all parties freely and with equal power agree the new limits*._


----------



## cp3o

Jus260 said:


> I didn't want to quote the entire post. All of that theory is great except for the fact that she has been hiding an affair for who knows how long. That means she can't be trusted. As awesome as you may think lesbian porn is, she is obviously bisexual if she has a woman on the side and is still having sex with her husband.
> 
> If JP were to allow her to have a girlfriend, what happens when she decides to find a new boyfriend as well? She obviously has lots of experience hiding affairs. All of this would happen after this is all exposed. She won't make the same mistakes next time she decides to hide an affair.
> 
> You can't let a porn fantasy override the fact that he is with a cheater who can't be trusted. If you want to divorce and have the XWW be a FWB with no strings attached, then go for it.


Clearly you are not alone in having difficulty understanding what I wrote - that may, of course, be my fault. 

I haven't made any recommendation to JP - I would not be so arrogant. I'm sure he is aware that trust is going to be a major problem in future - it is for him to weigh the situation and make whatever decision he needs - not for me to issue commands.

I cannot follow your "reasoning" in the following areas - Can you enlighten me please?

1 - She is not "obviously bisexual" - based on what I've read the options include bisexuality, lesbian and faking in the marriage, pan-sexual and even being the victim of blackmail etc.. - I suspect bisexuality is the most probable of these - it is not, however, "obvious".

2 - We do not even know that " she has been hiding an affair for who knows how long". From what we have been told it seems probable - but "obvious" it isn't.

3 - "She obviously has lots of experience hiding affairs." - "obvious" does not mean "in my imagination possibly". Please explain what you have read from OP that suggests any evidence of previous affairs.

4 - "She won't make the same mistakes next time she decides to hide an affair." You do not know for certain that she has an affair to hide - though I tend to agree that it's very likely - you do not know for certain that there will/would be future hiding of an affair. My personal experience suggest you may be right - but there is sufficient uncertainty to render your conviction unsafe and therefore, IMO, unwise to post.

5 - Your introduction of lesbian porn is disturbing - but not my problem. You imagine a fictitious trait of mine " As awesome as you may think lesbian porn is" and then tell me what I can't do "let a porn fantasy override the fact that he is with a cheater"
a) I can do anything (in my mind) that I wish - it has no bearing on the OP's situation.
b) The OP is the person with the cheater - it is up to him to "let" or not his fantasies (if he has any) override whatever he wishes.

Please go back and read my post until you understand it


----------



## oldshirt

A few pages back JP said he considered it cheating and unacceptable and that it didn't matter if the AP is a woman or a man.

That is his boundary and his stand on it so it doesn't matter if other people excuse female/female interaction or think that it is ok.


----------



## cp3o

CynthiaDe said:


> hahaha Wow. The OP is finding that this relationship has negatively impacted the marital relationship. He also did not agree to this. They made vows to each other and she has broken them. That is damage right there.


And........................?

This seems to be an odd (irrelevant?) response to "We should restrict our intolerance to that which is harmful rather than that which we find (or are told to find) discomforting."

Look - it's for the OP to decide if there's damage - I'm sure he does but it is not for me or any other poster to decide for him. It is for the OP to decide what he will tolerate or not.

The context to my comment was the use of the word "excuse" when I considered "tolerate" to be more appropriate. We should, within limits, tolerate difference - perhaps even glory in it rather than feel a need to excuse it. Excuse implies a superiority on the part of the excuser which the natural and unchosen variation in our characters does not warrant.

*Excuse* - Seek to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offence); try to justify.
Forgive (someone) for a fault or offence.
Overlook or make allowances for
(of a fact) serve to mitigate (a person or act)


----------



## cp3o

JP - I apologise for the unwitting t/j

Everyone else - Several of us were pretty heavy on JP talking with a lawyer. If, as we hope, he has done so he may well have been advised to keep away from participation in boards such as this - at least _pro tem._ It follows that we would encourage him to value the advice we hammered him to obtain; would we not?

If JP is able to return and advise us of what transpires it will serve three purposes

1 - it will facilitate the enhancement of advice offered to others in a similar situation as and when they appear here confused, scared and sad.

2 - we will have our natural curiosity, at least in part, slaked.

3 - It will, hopefully, vindicate any feelings that decency and "right" are valid and valued, at least by some.


----------



## sa58

Jp is probably dealing with a lot right now in his life.

If you go back and read his posts he was hurting, and 
she had him searching for an answer. He said he felt this 
was going to lead to something bad and now he knows.
Maybe more than he posted about.

Imagine how hard this is for him to talk to Mia husband 
and tell him why his marriage is in trouble. Because of his own 
wife. Not one family but two families torn apart because of this.
Kids and everything else turned upside down because of his wife
cheating.



What he does now is his decision. If he posts more or not.


----------



## notmyjamie

@JayPau,

I'm very sorry this is happening to you. I can relate better than most as I caught my husband cheating on me with men. It's a very different type of betrayal and it calls into question your entire relationship in an entirely different way than if she were cheating with a man. In a word, it's devastating. If in fact, you have found that your wife is having an affair with a women, you might be interested in this website that provides support to straight spouses. 

Straight Spouse Network

There are local support groups as well as a forum to join for online support. You can also private message me here if you would like. 

Sending you lots of strength and support.


----------



## TDSC60

cp3o said:


> Please read, and understand, the first sentence you quoted.
> I'll make it easy for you
> 
> _Boundaries are limits within which individuals operate; there is, IMO, no reason why those boundaries cannot be moved - *provided all parties freely and with equal power agree the new limits*._


I'll make it easy for you. Nothing wrong with moving boundaries as long as both parties agree.

The problem here is that the cheating wife moved the boundaries in secret without any prior discussion, prior knowledge, nor prior consent of the betrayed. There was no free agreement involved. And certainly not equal power since she actively hid the affair.

She has proven that she cannot be trusted. That makes any agreement to new boundaries on her part a moot point.


----------



## JayPau

A lot has happened in the last couple days. On Tuesday, Wednesday and yesterday both them were away from work quite a bit. I already shared what happened on Tuesday. On Wednesday, it was similar to Tuesday, only they had almost a 3 hour head start. Had an early lunch together, then it was off to Mia's house again for about three hours. Yesterday, both of them took the entire day off. They ate out for breakfast and had food delivered to Mia's House for lunch. The pics and video are quite damning. There is no doubt they are in a physical relationship. It seems their PDA's are frequent when they know they're in a safe place and won't be seen by people who know them. 

On Wednesday, I got confirmation that Mia's husband was off island from to Tuesday morning to sometime Thursday evening. I called his office while Mia and my wife were together at their house on Wednesday afternoon. I fully expected him to answer and I was going to hang up on him. Instead his voicemail said he would be out of the office from Tues to Thurs while on assignment on Maui. Just to make sure, I called the main line in his office where a secretary answered and told me he was on Maui and would not return to the office until today.

Through all of this surveillance, there was no sign of the husband, kids, or his car. I decided on Wednesday after the calls to his office to see if his car was parked there, and it was. At this time there is no reason to suspect the husband has any knowledge or involvement with the affair my wife is having with Mia.

Yesterday morning I was able to look through my wife's iPhone while she was still sleeping. Let's just say I hit the jackpot. All of this time I was looking in the wrong place. I went through her iMessages and saw an old and very lengthy convo with Mia. The constant texting began in late July and lasted to late October. These texts alone prove an affair was going on. I never thought about looking for texts with Mia, so I did not. I was thinking all along look for other messaging apps. And, I was thinking it's a guy, not a gal. Big mistake on my wife's part not to have at least erase the damn messages. Sloppy! I guess cheaters can get sloppy. The two of them are using another way to privately message since late October, I just don't which app, site, or service they're using.

I can safely say my wife is having an affair Mia, not anyone else. This is not to say she might not have had an affair with a man or another women in the past. I just cannot prove it. It some ways I don't want to know. I already have more than enough proof that my wife is a cheater. She's also a terrific liar. I love my wife, but our marriage is over. I cannot continue on in such an unhealthy marriage. It's toxic! 

I went to get tested for STD's yesterday. Should know all of the results next week. I have a consultation with an attorney this Monday. In the meantime, I was advised not to do anything until that consultation. So, I will not do the following yet: confront my wife, tell the other hubby, move money around, or scare my kids with what's coming soon.


----------



## Marc878

Sorry man. Just know this. Even though it doesn't seem like it now you'll be fine long term but it will be painfull getting there.

You did the right thing with the PI. Many linger in this hell for way too long not getting the info you've gotten.

Take care.


----------



## re16

That's awful JP. You've played it all perfectly so far.

It seems like you somehow timed the PI just right to when they had an opportunity with the other husband being gone.

You'd think all that time off work would have led to either smaller paychecks or her running out of time off.

Shockingly selfish of her that she could throw away the marriage and damage the kids so significantly with this.

Late July to now is 8 months, that is a serious relationship.

Continue to keep a cool head and you'll come out of this fine.


----------



## Marc878

Once you get everything lined up I'd inform Mia's husband right before your confrontation.

However, if you are going to divorce you don't have to confront at all. You just file. IMO I wouldn't waste all that time or energy. Just file and let her figure it out like you had too.

Good luck


----------



## wilson

If you really want to make an impact, have her served with divorce papers when she's at Mia's house.


----------



## re16

wilson said:


> If you really want to make an impact, have her served with divorce papers when she's at Mia's house.


Or coordinate with other husband and let both your wife and Mia get served while together at the same time.


----------



## oldshirt

Ii think it very wise to seek professional legal and financial counsel before dropping the bomb or doing anything.

Bu no one here including myself would blame you if you just can't hold it in until then. It would seem like torture to me to carry on business as usual knowing what you now know.....but I still think it is the wisest option.

That being said, I do agree with Mark above that if your mind is completely made up, there really is no reason or benefit to "confronting" her. She already knows she's cheating, what is telling her you know going to actually accomplish?

She'll find out you know when she gets served. 

And by that time you could have all your ducks in a row and game plan in place.

From there you just do what your lawyer says.

I do think you should infor Mia's BH when your lawyer gives you the green light to do so. 

But until then, there really is no benefit to doing anything until advised by your lawyer.


----------



## Decorum

.


----------



## sokillme

If you want to do this right. Get someone to watch your kids. Serve your wife with papers and then ghost for at least a week before you talk to her. Let her suffer. It may brake her out of her spell but if it doesn't then you will at least know.

Frankly I could not live with someone who could treat me with such disregard. Or someone whom I would never trust again, whom I would never truly feel safe with. I just know there is a better life out there then that.

There is not just one person out there who can bring you joy, and truthfully it's going to be a long time before your wife will bring you true joy again, if ever. 

Life is short, you only get one.


----------



## JayPau

All I can say is thank you! To all of you! You steered me in the right direction and helped me make good decisions. Without your help, I surely would have lost it by now. I know what is going on and I hate it, but at least I KNOW. The part that worries me the most going forward are my kids. I think my daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. My daughter is closer to me, while my son in closer to my wife. I have to find a way to make things right for them. I love my kids so much and I know this is really going to hurt them. I can overcome the breakup with my wife at some point, but I cannot imagine losing time with my kids. I need them near me.


----------



## OutofRetirement

Any possible alienation of affection lawsuit could be a bargaining chip. It may involve refraining from sex with your wife after finding out about the affair. Talk to your attorney about if it applies in your situation and if you can leverage a better settlement or custody.


----------



## JayPau

Unless the lawyer says no, I have every intention of telling Mia's hubby about everything.


----------



## faithfulman

JayPau, please tell me you documented her texts to Mia.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

JayPau said:


> A lot has happened in the last couple days. On Tuesday, Wednesday and yesterday both them were away from work quite a bit. I already shared what happened on Tuesday. On Wednesday, it was similar to Tuesday, only they had almost a 3 hour head start. Had an early lunch together, then it was off to Mia's house again for about three hours. Yesterday, both of them took the entire day off. They ate out for breakfast and had food delivered to Mia's House for lunch. The pics and video are quite damning. There is no doubt they are in a physical relationship. It seems their PDA's are frequent when they know they're in a safe place and won't be seen by people who know them.
> 
> On Wednesday, I got confirmation that Mia's husband was off island from to Tuesday morning to sometime Thursday evening. I called his office while Mia and my wife were together at their house on Wednesday afternoon. I fully expected him to answer and I was going to hang up on him. Instead his voicemail said he would be out of the office from Tues to Thurs while on assignment on Maui. Just to make sure, I called the main line in his office where a secretary answered and told me he was on Maui and would not return to the office until today.
> 
> Through all of this surveillance, there was no sign of the husband, kids, or his car. I decided on Wednesday after the calls to his office to see if his car was parked there, and it was. At this time there is no reason to suspect the husband has any knowledge or involvement with the affair my wife is having with Mia.
> 
> Yesterday morning I was able to look through my wife's iPhone while she was still sleeping. Let's just say I hit the jackpot. All of this time I was looking in the wrong place. I went through her iMessages and saw an old and very lengthy convo with Mia. The constant texting began in late July and lasted to late October. These texts alone prove an affair was going on. I never thought about looking for texts with Mia, so I did not. I was thinking all along look for other messaging apps. And, I was thinking it's a guy, not a gal. Big mistake on my wife's part not to have at least erase the damn messages. Sloppy! I guess cheaters can get sloppy. The two of them are using another way to privately message since late October, I just don't which app, site, or service they're using.
> 
> I can safely say my wife is having an affair Mia, not anyone else. This is not to say she might not have had an affair with a man or another women in the past. I just cannot prove it. It some ways I don't want to know. I already have more than enough proof that my wife is a cheater. She's also a terrific liar. I love my wife, but our marriage is over. I cannot continue on in such an unhealthy marriage. It's toxic!
> 
> I went to get tested for STD's yesterday. Should know all of the results next week. I have a consultation with an attorney this Monday. In the meantime, I was advised not to do anything until that consultation. So, I will not do the following yet: confront my wife, tell the other hubby, move money around, or scare my kids with what's coming soon.


The evidence is glaringly obvious now. I hope you took pics of the damning test messages. Because she will deny, deny, deny. 

The advice you are getting is sound. I would add seeing 3 attorneys before picking the one that best suits your temperament and your goals. We know it will be hard to do that and keep all this mess bottled up. 

As hard as it will be this weekend stay silent. Many in your shoes lose their resolve to keep quiet until they line their cards up and let it all out in fury. Weekends especially as just being around each other can be a time bomb.

Is there any way you can stay out of the house doing things without her getting suspicious?


----------



## SnowToArmPits

JP - your plan sounds solid. Man you've got a looonnnggg weekend ahead of you. Maybe this weekend be more absent than you normally are on weekends - invent a work emergency, or something like shopping for a new car could take up a whole day easily.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

faithfulman said:


> JayPau, please tell me you documented her texts to Mia.


Some lawyers always so no. Less thinking for them to do on their side. Seriously, see a few before deciding. They come on all shapes and sizes in terms of confidence and courage.


----------



## re16

faithfulman said:


> JayPau, please tell me you documented her texts to Mia.


If you didn't, get the phone again and screen shot them all and forward them to yourself and then delete the forwards, photos, and image attachments.


----------



## JayPau

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Some lawyers always so no. Less thinking for them to do on their side. Seriously, see a few before deciding. They come on all shapes and sizes in terms of confidence and courage.


Seeing a few attorneys sounds like a good idea. Of course, I took tons of pics of the messages.


----------



## JayPau

I want to take my kids out to dinner tonight. Tomorrow I want to see if they want to go to the beach. Heck, let each bring a friend or two with us. It's not like my wife is interested in coming with us. Kids with their dad having fun. What's better than that?


----------



## re16

JayPau said:


> All I can say is thank you! To all of you! You steered me in the right direction and helped me make good decisions. Without your help, I surely would have lost it by now. I know what is going on and I hate it, but at least I KNOW. The part that worries me the most going forward are my kids. I think my daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. My daughter is closer to me, while my son in closer to my wife. I have to find a way to make things right for them. I love my kids so much and I know this is really going to hurt them. I can overcome the breakup with my wife at some point, but I cannot imagine losing time with my kids. I need them near me.


It will be tough, at least the kids will learn the importance of being faithful.

Maybe you should have a counselor qued up and prepped for them to talk to right away (like appointment already made when you file).

At the age they are, do they get a say in who they stay with?


----------



## faithfulman

> *Originally Posted by faithfulman*
> JayPau, please tell me you documented her texts to Mia.
> Some lawyers always so no. Less thinking for them to do on their side. Seriously, see a few before deciding. They come on all shapes and sizes in terms of confidence and courage.






Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Some lawyers always so no. Less thinking for them to do on their side. Seriously, see a few before deciding. They come on all shapes and sizes in terms of confidence and courage.


Come again?


----------



## OutofRetirement

If you've read the texts for a few months, did they talk about the future of their affair relationship or the future of their marriages?

I believe a few months into the affair - started late July and you read up to October - the lovebirds have agreed on what their relationship is. For example, soulmates who will be together one day, soulmates who will be together when the kids turn 18, soulmates who will never leave their marriages and sacrifice for those who they love (i.e., you and the kids). Any indications from your wife or Mia in the texts?


----------



## faithfulman

JayPau said:


> Of course, I took tons of pics of the messages.


Way to keep your head in the game.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Seeing multiple attorneys in various offices also can stop her from using them in terms of conflict of interest. 

Look for attorneys who specialize in contentious divorces. They are the most skilled and confident. It is a unique niche. They are usually hated by other attorneys because they handle divorces involving married attorneys. 

If your local bar does not have that type of business in general then attorneys who 'mostly' do divorces in their firms or partnerships. 

It is worth spending a little time researching, One way is to visit the dive bar and steakhouse or other fancy place closest to the courthouse. Dive bar low, steak house high. Ask the bartenders at these places at happy hour. You might just hear same names popping up from the drinking legals hanging around.


----------



## Tobyboy

What are the chances that Mia’s husband hired a PI himself, since he suspected Mia and would be off island for a few days? 

Jay, sorry this is happening to you. You’re going to be fine.


----------



## Chuck71

TDSC60 said:


> The physical betrayal is a deal breaker for some.
> 
> But some find the emotional betrayal hurts more. The lies, the deception, the secrets, the broken trust, basically having a second elicit relationship outside of the marriage that the betrayed is not aware of and the wayward goes to extraordinary lengths to hide.


As I stated since I came here....I don't know if my XW had a PA or even an EA. Her walking out on the M

was enough for me. Oh.... she was on four paid dating sites before we filed for D.

To me.... that's an attempted EA. So that would have been it there as well.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Jaypau, i would make duplicates f the evidence and keep a set with the lawyer you go with. also i would refrain from tell the husband at this point. If you do end up divorcing that information is leverage against your wife, she will crumble to save Mia i suspect. she will give you anything to keep it just between you too.


----------



## the guy

You now have the chance to get a few steps ahead of this...instead of being a few steps behind.

It will be tough to keep your cool....but trust me... getting a few steps ahead of your WW before you confront will be well worth it.


Having an effective confrontation means every thing.


----------



## KanDo

I have read your story with sadness. If you are around here long enough, you will see your tale is not unique but tragic nonetheless. I think you have done well. Be careful this weekend and wait to confront you wayward spouse until you have discussed with the lawyers and have had time to map out your next steps. Good luck


----------



## Marc878

Hawaii is a no fault state so adultry won't matter. 

It may get you some play if alimony comes up but only your attorney would know that.


----------



## Marc878

Now is time to start thinking ahead.

Almost all will give the spiel "let's be friends" that's all for them not you. It helps to relive guilt etc. all it does for you is keep your head in the mess and prohibit you from moving on like you should.

Definition of friend = honest, loyal and trustworthy. 

Your only good path is no or limited contact. No matter what she will get 50/50 custody if she wants it.
Keep everything separate. Holidays, birthdays, etc. be civil but keep your distance. If not you'll linger in this a lot longer than you need to.

It'll be hard upfront but you'll find your time with the kids will be more focused. Quality over quantity.

I have 3 friends who use this method and it works well after an adjustment period. It is awkward upfront but will normalize over time. How awkward is her affair?

One of them tried holidays together and he said it was a huge mistake and stopped after the first one.

You have your time and she has hers unless she doesn't want them.

Put some thought into it. You have a lot of great resources here so keep posting. Get what you need.

I would not lie to your kids or keep them in the dark. That just creates more anxiety. They aren't stupid.
You can tell them in a very sanitized way. 

Sorry you're here. Stay strong. You will get through this.


----------



## Ceegee

JayPau said:


> All I can say is thank you! To all of you! You steered me in the right direction and helped me make good decisions. Without your help, I surely would have lost it by now. I know what is going on and I hate it, but at least I KNOW. The part that worries me the most going forward are my kids. I think my daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. My daughter is closer to me, while my son in closer to my wife. I have to find a way to make things right for them. I love my kids so much and I know this is really going to hurt them. I can overcome the breakup with my wife at some point, but I cannot imagine losing time with my kids. I need them near me.




I don’t remember how old your kids are but, yes, dealing with the loss of time with your kids is the worst part of divorce. 

Find an attorney that advocates for you getting primary. It is more common nowadays for a dad to get given your situation. 

Start keeping a log of what you do with and for them. 

Check out family law for your state. 

Your son is close with her now but as he grows older he will identify with you more and will have a desire to spend more time with you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wolfman1968

Wolfman1968 said:


> You know, I can't remember when the last time that the answer was "No" in a thread with a title like "Is my wife cheating on me".


JayPau-- sorry it ended up being like this. I guess you knew something was up. 

So, it seems I still can't remember the last time the answer to a Thread Title containing a question like yours was "No.".

It appears the very fact that someone is asking the question is a sign that something is probably up.


----------



## Hoosier

Wolfman1968 said:


> JayPau-- sorry it ended up being like this. I guess you knew something was up.
> 
> So, it seems I still can't remember the last time the answer to a Thread Title containing a question like yours was "No.".
> 
> It appears the very fact that someone is asking the question is a sign that something is probably up.


 And the old hair on the back of your neck standing up is once again proven to be very accurate.


----------



## TDSC60

I am sorry that your marriage has been trashed by your wife, but I am glad you have the truth and now have a plan.

It may be hard to stay silent while your plans are put into action, but you should do so at least until you have a chance to consult an attorney.

Your wife may notice a change in your mood and ask questions to see if she can get an idea if you suspect anything, so be prepared for that. On the other hand, she may be so far into her fantasy with Mia that she does not care.

Your description of how sex with your wife had changed struck a note with me. A friend of mine, whose wife had a 2 year affair, told me that his wife acted the exact same way during the affair. When it all blew and her affair partner cut her off, my friend said she told him that she made an effort to keep him happy sexually so he would not suspect she had another man. It seemed that your wife had the same idea, only the affair partner is a woman. I think she knows her affair with Mia has to end sooner or latter and she is trying to keep you in the dark and happy so she can keep the life you have while she has her fun. 

But the trust you had is now forever damaged. It is crazy how waywards spouses don't understand that. Or maybe they do, but think they can never be caught.

Good luck.


----------



## Chuck71

JayPau said:


> All I can say is thank you! To all of you! You steered me in the right direction and helped me make good decisions. Without your help, I surely would have lost it by now. I know what is going on and I hate it, but at least I KNOW. The part that worries me the most going forward are my kids. I think my daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. My daughter is closer to me, while my son in closer to my wife. I have to find a way to make things right for them. I love my kids so much and I know this is really going to hurt them. I can overcome the breakup with my wife at some point, but I cannot imagine losing time with my kids. I need them near me.


So sad you are devastated but glad you uncovered the truth. Be prepared for her to try and woo

you back after the A has been exposed. Those words she will spew are lies. She will want you

back temporarily......until she can explore her options. Try and set something up where your 

kids can talk to someone after everything is set in motion.


----------



## Chaparral

The age of a child doesn't preclude them from stating their wishes as far as custody is concerned. You need a really competent attorney.

Check this website out.

https://dadsdivorce.com/

Its my guess your wife has not considered getting a divorce. I do think she is in the glow of young love for the other woman. The thing is she has kept up her sex life with you and even intensified it. Normally what we see here is a big reduction in your sex life and usually cutting the betrayed spouse off altogether to stay faithful to the new partner. 

In your case, your wife's guilt resulted in her many odd behaviors leading to her downfall. If she had become a lesbian I doubt she would still be having good sex with you. 

Many answers will come out after you confront her. If it were me, I would have her served and have the server say she was being divorced for adultery with (other womans name). And then just wait for her reaction. While she is being served I would also notify her husband and let him take care of his side of the street.

Hopefully, you can get yourself and kids with competent counseling. Also, see your MD for temporary medical assistance. Keeping an even keel can benefit and protect you and your kids at this life changing time.

Also, this has been eating at your wife for a long time so be prepared for her coming apart.


----------



## oldshirt

responses in bold below




Chaparral said:


> Its my guess your wife has not considered getting a divorce.
> 
> *I'm willing to be a shiny nickel she has no interest in divorce at all and will cry and slobber and fight tooth and nail to remain marriage to JP.
> IMHO people that are dissatisfied with their marriages and find someone else they believe to be better, often pack their bags and are gone in days,weeks or maybe a few months. Ongoing affairs with little disruption at home with tight security (which is called "OPSEC" for 'operational security' on cheater forums, are all about caking eating and the WS does not want a divorce at all. They want to remain married and maintain the home life and have wild, monkey sex with the AP on the side. I'll bet dollars to donuts that when JP drops the bomb she will have a major freak out and fight tooth and nail to stay in the marriage. *
> 
> 
> I do think she is in the glow of young love for the other woman. The thing is she has kept up her sex life with you and even intensified it. Normally what we see here is a big reduction in your sex life and usually cutting the betrayed spouse off altogether to stay faithful to the new partner.
> 
> In your case, your wife's guilt resulted in her many odd behaviors leading to her downfall.
> 
> *I don't think it's guilt. Most cheaters actually feel little to no guilt while they are in the affair and are getting away with it. Most feel they are entitled to have their fun on the side. They only feel fear and regret when caught.
> 
> I think her sexual reenergizing was from getting a pumped up dose of hormones and her NRE was basically reigniting her libido.
> 
> She may even have herself fooled into thinking that since it is a woman, that she is not cheating. She obviously knows JP would not be down with it or she would not have worked so hard on keeping it a secret. But I betcha at some point after the bomb drops that she will claiming the "orientation defense" in that it was just a part of her nature and it wasn't really cheating since it was with another woman and she had bumped up the sex and the BJs with him.
> 
> She's going to ask for a free-pass and get-of-jail-free card since this is with a chick. *
> 
> 
> If she had become a lesbian I doubt she would still be having good sex with you.
> 
> *This is a myth in my experience. I have had one long term, serious GF and one established FWB jump the fence and start batting for the other team. In both of those relationships the sex was very high-energy and very active and both of them later said that the sex was great but that they eventually came to the realization that they needed the emotional connection and closeness that they got with women. Both had had previous BFs and relationships with men and had active and healthy sex lives with men. They just ultimately preferred to be relationships with women. *


----------



## cp3o

JP - my commiserations, you must be experiencing a plethora of discordant emotions. Please ensure you look after yourself, eat well and above all keep hydrated. Assistance with sleeping is available if needed - I managed with the occasional, over-the-counter, not-safe-to-drive-or-operate-machinery anti-hayfever tablet but your doctor will be used to helping people in your situation.

I think you are very wise to hold fire on any action until you have a lawyer advising you.

Regarding the switch from text to an alternative comms method. From what you write the texts were explicit - the change was therefore not to hide the relationship escalating from friendship to affair. I wonder if the reason is that someone (Mia's H/you/kids?) became suspicious, found out, frightened them by getting close without realising that something was going on.

FWIW - you, and your kids, are in many people's thoughts.


----------



## TDSC60

Of course you worry about how your kids will react, that is normal for a good parent. Too bad your wife never considered them when she started her affair.

You should look into finding a good councilor for them to help them deal with it.

I have seen many couples divorce and a few stay together for the kids. The ones that stay for the kids are always miserable and the kids sense that. Get a councilor for yourself and advice on how to help the kids deal with what is coming.


----------



## niceguy47460

Jp can't wait to hear how she takes it when you drop the bomb and blow this whole thing up . really sorry you are having to go through this . i know it hurts .

Keep us updated


----------



## sa58

Just my viewpoint again.

Sorry very very sorry that this has happened to you and your kids.
When you do confront your wife as everyone will tell you be ready
for just about anything. I say this because your wife is getting ready
to lose you , her kids, and possible her home depending on divorce laws
there. Maybe even when you expose her Mia will end the relationship also.

Your wife to me is showing what cheaters often do. She is manipulating you
in to thinking nothing is going on and probably is telling Mia that your marriage 
is messed up to. Mia marriage has problems and your wife may be taking full
advantage of them. Your wife currently has things the way she wants them. 
You at home and Mia at work. Cake eating!!
You are going to destroy that for her. I would 

Why if Mia knows that your wife is married then does your wife need to take off her wedding 
ring when they are together ? Cheating is cheating!! Ring or no ring!! When she comes home to 
you she puts her ring back on and pretends nothing is going on. She even kissed you correct ?
Your wife did not move her car because of the GPS and as I already said left her phone out for 
you to see. Mind games is what she is playing to me. She may lying to Mia about things also.
Cheaters tell their AP lies about their current relationship. Do not listen to her lies when you 
confront her. Even if she says she will stop seeing Mia and work on your marriage. She has tried to
cover her tracks so her cake eating world will not fall apart. She is very cunning and manipulative 
because her behavior clearly show this. Beware of things she says and does even after exposed.

I am not trying to say Mia is innocent in anyway. Just that your wife seems to be manipulating and 
trying to control this entire situation. In reality she probably doesn't care about either one of you. Just
her own self. They are both wrong and they know it. Even if she tries to lie and beg do not listen to her.

Do not be shocked about anything she may have told Mia or anybody else about you.
She will be just trying to cover her self and justify her actions. Cheaters do that always.


----------



## sa58

As I said in one of my earlier post it was strange 
that the bosses wife had to come in and help

Now that question has been answered your wife !!.
Raises the questions of how many days your wife
has taken off and is her job in trouble ? If she has 
done this several times then it maybe or close to it ?

Talk with your lawyer and protect your assets carefully.
You are probably the largest income anyways. 

She is not just manipulative but trouble for everyone.
Destroying peoples lives and families but causing people
to have to do her work also. It is only about her anyways!!

Not worth your time you can do better glad you are divorcing
her. Hang in there her day of Karma is coming.

Karma says you reap what you sow.


----------



## Decorum

sa58 said:


> Why if Mia knows that your wife is married then does your wife need to take off her wedding
> ring when they are together ?


Ooo that's a good question!


----------



## oldshirt

Get the paper work filed before she gets canned for donut bumping on company time.

If she gets canned you may get stuck with some kind if spousal support.


----------



## faithfulman

sa58 said:


> Just my viewpoint again.
> 
> 
> 
> Why if Mia knows that your wife is married then does your wife need to take off her wedding
> ring when they are together ?


Come on. Mia knows.

Mia was confiding in JayPau's STBXW that her husband suspects her of cheating.

They are sneaking around together.

Has Mia ever been to JayPau's STBXW's home? Probably not, but if she has, did STBXC hide all the evidence of a family, all the pictures, re-did all the rooms?

STBXW is texting with her all the time, sometime's she abruptly has to stop communication.

Okay, anything is possible I guess, but 99.99999999999999999999999999999% Mia knows.


----------



## Marc878

Taking the ring off is a sign that she belongs to Mia during affair time and she's not married to OP.

Mia doesn't want a reminder that she's married to OP. Part of the secret affair fantasy I suspect.

And the wayward wife willingly complies maybe even initiates it.


----------



## JustWavingNotDrowning

I didn't think there was any question that the two women know the other's relationship status. I understood from JP's post at #287 that he and his wife knew Mia and her husband slightly socially so I assumed Mia would know quite clearly who JP's wife is married to. Have I missed something ?

I am sorry for TMI but don't lovers remove rings when they indulge in certain types of sexual play? We don't know if the wedding ring is the only hand jewellery JP's wife wears. It may simply be she didn't hurry to put it back on. I apologise if I have sown a lewd but incorrect or inappropriate thought.
@JayPau I admire your strength and resolve. If anyone I've ever read about has the character to steer himself and his children to a better place, you do. Best wishes and hope from another bloke across the world (we share a flag)


----------



## MattMatt

cp3o said:


> Not your most pressing concern I appreciate but - _Then this morning, my wife did something strange. She took the same undies she wore yesterday out of the hamper and wore them to work (on her date) today. Why?_
> 
> 
> Maybe someone has a fetish to do with inhaling concentrated odours (a trophy maybe?).
> 
> Perhaps they are to be given/mailed to someone as a memento - more personal but less identifiable than a photograph?
> 
> Weird thought just entered my mind - if other women are doing the same will someone will be trying to identifying whose underwear they are sniffing out of more than one odorous offering - not my scene but there is little so odd that someone doesn't do it.
> 
> It might be interesting to know if she wears them still when getting home again.
> 
> Presumably when you find out the reason, whatever it be, it will explain her reluctance about you doing the laundry.


Or maybe Mia likes her to wear THAT pair of panties?


----------



## cp3o

MattMatt said:


> Or maybe Mia likes her to wear THAT pair of panties?


JP's recent posts indicate that you may well be right.

Perhaps because I'm male and old. and the underwear I buy tends to be part of a multipack, I hadn't thought of a unique "special" pair. 

I always liked my girlfriends to be wearing clean undies even if they were identical to those they wore previously - but why should anyone else be like me? 

Perhaps these were a one-off gift?

Probably not important - it just struck me and JP as odd.


----------



## TDSC60

JP,

I hope you a great time with your kids this weekend.

Did your wife go with you?


----------



## OutofRetirement

Rings have symbolism beyond the wedding. But within the boundaries of wedding symbolism the circle means eternity and unity. It represents the unending state of matrimony — a “forever until death do us part” association. The ring has traditionally stood for a covenant or agreement, or the seal of a binding contract. More specifically, the ring represents the marriage vow. Two rings joined together are a symbol of joint covenant, unity, and united love or life.

There are legitimate reasons to take a wedding ring off (not an inclusive list): Doing dirty work (cleaning with chemicals) or doing sensitive things where the ring might catch onto somethng), some jobs require taking off all jewelry, allergy or irritating the hand, losing the ring. You know your wife a long time and you know if any of those apply. She works in an office, she wasn't wearing them at lunch, you haven't noticed any skin irritation, and the ring came back on that night without a word.

Reasons to take the wedding ring off: Well, the wedding ring is extremely symbolic of the commitment to your marriage. Taking the ring off is symbolic of lack of commitment to your marriage. In a cheating situation, the affair partner may ask your wife to take the wedding ring off because he/she is bothered by your wife's symbolic commitment to you. Or your wife may do that on her own. For as long as I've been alive, I know of men who would take off their ring if they wanted to pretend single. That is not the case for your wife, because the person she had lunch with would know well that your wife is still married. I am aware of wives who have taken their wedding rings off when very angry with their husbands - kind of a passive/aggressive behavior rather than face the issue head on. A juvenile way of looking at it (and much of cheating is juvenile - very teenage puppy love stuff) is that it's like you can lie as long as you keep your fingers crossed behind your back (i.e., it's not cheating if you kept your wedding ring off - you weren't truly married at that time). Another mindset, a very irrational one (but cheating frequently involves a lot of irrationality - thoughts-behaviors don't make sense and/or conflict with other thoughts-behaviors, which doesn't make sense to non-cheaters, but makes perfect sense for the cheaters) might be that the cheater is guilty about cheating, and thinks by taking off the wedding ring, it's a way to respect the marriage (nevermind having sex with the other person, lying to the spouse is the height of disrespect).

I banged out a few sentences about the wedding ring. Others here have too. Trust me, your wife gave it very little thought, way less then I did or others did. With cheaters, it's all about "feelings" and "desire," so whatever she did, it "felt" "right" to her. She is not reflecting deeply about the rights and wrongs, whys, consequences, etc., and especially not about the ring. If it feels right to her, she will do it. The affair is a fantasy world, the cheater is motivated 100% by the feelings they feel, they disregard any morals, ethics, wedding vows, spouses, children, parents, in-laws, etc. - they override those things and feel their feelings.


----------



## sunsetmist

Are you wondering how did this woman whom I loved and created a family with turn into an unknown entity? What did I do wrong? Nothing, you did nothing wrong. Do you feel like you are watching a soap opera? She is living the soap and has left her integrity/character on the curb.

Glad for your wisdom in pursuing evidence of her affair. Glad for your focus on kids now. Glad for you decisiveness to proceed. Don't waver.


----------



## VFW

This is super messed up man, but you have done well and kept your head in the game. Time at the beach with the kids would be great for all of you. I recommend maybe going to Hanauma Bay and do some snorkeling.


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## sa58

Consider the following JP

For months your wife has been cheating
You knew something was wrong
You asked your wife and she denied it
She saw you hurting and kept cheating
You now know you were right
You now have proof of it
You are seeing a lawyer
You are going to confront her
You are going to expose/divorce her
You are going to inform Mia husband
Your wife still thinks you don't know
You are really going to surprise and shock her !!
Reality/ Karma time for her and Mia !!

They both know they are wrong.
They both know they are married
Cheating is cheating with another woman
or man. Ring or no ring cheating is cheating.
You asked your wife about things and she led.
She had many chances to tell you if she was unhappy
or anything else. She didn't she lied and cheated.
Regardless of anything she made her choice.
She now has to deal with the results of it.
She may try many excuses or blame many things
Don't listen to any of it, she did this on her own.


If you confront her at home consider maybe having 
a camera around for your protection. Your PI may be 
able to help with that. If your proof is digital on your 
phone consider printing out some of it. She will be upset
and maybe angry aty being caught. Maybe even try and 
smash your phone or something.


----------



## sa58

When you confront your wife try and arrange 
for Mia husband to do it at the same time.
That way they cannot get together and try and cover 
their tracks. More lies !!


----------



## sa58

Jp 

You are going to have a hard week, harder than 
the last few months of not knowing have been.
If Mia husband is back and you have to tell him.
Then both of you have to confront your wives.
Just explaining things to him will be very hard.
But now you both will know and they will be exposed.

You and him have done nothing but love and provide 
for your families. Exposure and confronting is hard
step but needed to ease your pain. Often exposure 
ends the affair quickly. The sick sneaking around and 
thrill of it then ends. Everybody knows and the reality
of cheating, lies, and guilt at what they have done
and what they could be facing stares them in the face.

I have had friends and my son go through this. The affair never
lasted after exposure. Any relationship based on cheating and lies
fails. My sons wife cheated and lied and they divorced. He now
works for a great company, has a younger and better looking girlfriend 
than his wife. They don't even discuss marriage, and his new girlfriend 
adores his daughter. His ex now lives in a house owned by her father and 
has not had a lasting relationship or anything since then. She is lonely and
miserable. Even his daughter prefers to be with her father, " Mom does nothing
but fuss " she says. At first seeing someone who he loved and trusted like that
bothered him. Not now she made her choice she has to live with it. 

In this situation thinking about or seeing your wife in a similar way will bother you.
You love her and thought you could trust her. Now you know the truth you were 
searching for. You have your kids and your life to live, she decided not to be part 
of that great life. This is her not you. 

I hope you are not still trying to find more proof on her phone. You probably have enough
and it really is not worth the time and energy. Sadly your wife probably isn't either. Since she 
takes her ring off to do this tell her you want it back. Sell it and get your kids something, it 
doesn't mean to her what it means to you. Sorry I hate cheaters because of the pain they cause.

Just take care of yourself and remember this is her betraying you nothing you did.
Many thoughts and prayers are with you sir


----------



## Goose54

The next time your WW goes to their house, spoof call him and tell him to get his a$$ home. Then wait to see the fall-out.


----------



## Decorum

Goose54 said:


> The next time your WW goes to their house, spoof call him and tell him to get his a$$ home. Then wait to see the fall-out.


Or pick him up from work, "I hired a PI, and our wives are having a sex party at your house right now, you need to come with me I want you to see this with your own eyes."

Have your phone recording just like a episode of cheaters.


----------



## cp3o

JP - I'm confident that you are sensible enough to do so but, just in case the blood is pounding (as it may reasonably be doing), please, please run any and all options you are contemplating past your lawyer before committing to any particular course of action


----------



## TDSC60

I'm sure that you feel (or will feel) the following shortly;

the need to punish
the need to expose
the need to confront her
the need to have her experience your pain
the need to be told why
the need need to be done with her
possibly the need to see them both lose everything they have ignore (marriages, spouse, children)

But don't take ANY action without a lawyer's approval.
Just protect and love your kids.


----------



## TDSC60

Really I would not confront her at all.

Just have her served with divorce papers and have a few PI pictures in the packet.

If you can have her served at work that would be good. Just be prepared for her to blow up your phone. Don't answer or respond.

That kinda says it all.


----------



## re16

TDSC60 said:


> Really I would not confront her at all.
> 
> Just have her served with divorce papers and have a few PI pictures in the packet.
> 
> If you can have her served at work that would be good. Just be prepared for her to blow up your phone. Don't answer or respond.
> 
> That kinda says it all.


I like the idea of having her served at work or while with Mia, but I think I would fully hold all evidence.

When she blows him up, I think he should demand a timeline, and compare that to evidence he has. I would not at all hint about what information I had, only that he fully knows what is going on and has evidence. That way, she won't know what to lie about or how much to confess to. Perhaps he wants to divorce and run, but I think I would want to find out what she has to say and if she comes clean or lies.

If he gives specific evidence, she will minimize it and make up specific stories about that evidence.

Speaking of that, I know JP got a bunch of pictures of her older text messages, he should make sure these are not kept on his phone where she will likely be looking to see what he has. I would secure the phone also with a different pin and new icloud password.


----------



## Marc878

TDSC60 said:


> Really I would not confront her at all.
> 
> Just have her served with divorce papers and have a few PI pictures in the packet.
> 
> If you can have her served at work that would be good. Just be prepared for her to blow up your phone. Don't answer or respond.
> 
> That kinda says it all.


This ^^^^^, why waste time and effort on confrontation if you're going to divorce her anyway. I wouldn't show her what I had. She's not stupid. She'll know.

I would inform the other husband right before or after I had her served.


----------



## Tobyboy

I wouldn’t let her off that easy.
Face to face confrontation would be my choice.
I’d want to look my enemy in the eye and see their reaction. 
Shining the light of reality to their faces. 
Watch them squirm as they try to lie or justify their actions. 
Beg for forgiveness.....as I hand divorce papers myself!


----------



## Marc878

Everyone is different. Silence is one of the best weapons you can have.

It's extremely tough for most people to use though.


----------



## TDSC60

Tobyboy said:


> I wouldn’t let her off that easy.
> Face to face confrontation would be my choice.
> I’d want to look my enemy in the eye and see their reaction.
> Shining the light of reality to their faces.
> Watch them squirm as they try to lie or justify their actions.
> Beg for forgiveness.....as I hand divorce papers myself!


Some places require divorce papers to be served by a law enforcement office, a registered process server, an officer of the court, or other official person who must get her signature of receipt to make it official.

Talk to the lawyer.


----------



## cp3o

Tobyboy said:


> I wouldn’t let her off that easy.
> Face to face confrontation would be my choice.
> I’d want to look my enemy in the eye and see their reaction.
> Shining the light of reality to their faces.
> Watch them squirm as they try to lie or justify their actions.
> Beg for forgiveness.....as I hand divorce papers myself!


Have you ever done so?


----------



## sa58

Confronting her is not about punishing her.
It is more about relief for him and telling her 
he knows what she has been doing and that
he shows her he was not crazy after all. It is
not about her but him taking his life back. I have
had friends who have gone through this. It helps
with the healing for them, not the liar and cheater.
She been trying to convince him that nothing has 
been going on now he gets to tell her he knows.

He doesn't have to tell her everything he knows or how 
just that he knows and wants out. This is someone who 
he loves and thought he could trust. Emotional and physical
trust, heart mind and possible STD. Broken and betrayed now.
Seeing a lawyer is protecting himself and his kids future. 
Telling her and informing Mia husband is a step in ending the 
affair. 

Child custody spousal support and that can be done legally. 
He is doing that the rest healing and moving forward is up to him 
and Mia husband. What happens between Mia and her husband is 
not his fault but his wife and Mia. Mia husband has a right to know 
why his relationship is in trouble also. If they divorce or what ever 
not JP fault but their own fault.

Cheating relationships fail once exposed for many reasons. Once the thrill
is gone because everyone now knows and reality sets in. The hurt and pain 
they have caused now become real. The problems they thought they had in 
their marriage are still there and now in their affair relationship. No more having your
cake and eating to. In this situation they may be faced with being divorced, shared 
custody and having to do everything alone. Something they have not probably even 
thought about. Jp and Mia husband will not be there for them just their kids.

They made their choice to do this they made their choice to lie and cheat. 
Expose them both and take back your life JP. Time to start healing and take back 
your life.


----------



## TDSC60

sa58 said:


> Confronting her is not about punishing her.
> It is more about relief for him and telling her
> he knows what she has been doing and that
> he shows her he was not crazy after all. It is
> not about her but him taking his life back. I have
> had friends who have gone through this. It helps
> with the healing for them, not the liar and cheater.
> She been trying to convince him that nothing has
> been going on now he gets to tell her he knows.
> 
> He doesn't have to tell her everything he knows or how
> just that he knows and wants out. This is someone who
> he loves and thought he could trust. Emotional and physical
> trust, heart mind and possible STD. Broken and betrayed now.
> Seeing a lawyer is protecting himself and his kids future.
> Telling her and informing Mia husband is a step in ending the
> affair.
> 
> Child custody spousal support and that can be done legally.
> He is doing that the rest healing and moving forward is up to him
> and Mia husband. What happens between Mia and her husband is
> not his fault but his wife and Mia. Mia husband has a right to know
> why his relationship is in trouble also. If they divorce or what ever
> not JP fault but their own fault.
> 
> Cheating relationships fail once exposed for many reasons. Once the thrill
> is gone because everyone now knows and reality sets in. The hurt and pain
> they have caused now become real. The problems they thought they had in
> their marriage are still there and now in their affair relationship. No more having your
> cake and eating to. In this situation they may be faced with being divorced, shared
> custody and having to do everything alone. Something they have not probably even
> thought about. Jp and Mia husband will not be there for them just their kids.
> 
> They made their choice to do this they made their choice to lie and cheat.
> Expose them both and take back your life JP. Time to start healing and take back
> your life.


I would not say don't ever confront her.....just wait until after the divorce paper are served to do it.

He already knows she is a cheating liar who will manipulate him and blame shift.

Confronting before the divorce papers are served is only good if the betrayed is considering reconciliation and wants to stop the affair.

I know most want to see the cheater on their knees begging for another chance, but that does not always happen.

She may be OK with a divorce or even expecting it.


----------



## sa58

How you confront her is up to you.
I would try and do it the same time 
as Mia husband does. Without your kids 
around. That way they cannot 
get together with Mia husband and tell
him you are crazy or a liar. Cheaters lie 
your wife or Mia may be telling each other
that they want out of their marriage and 
will but not right now. " I would tell him
but because of the kids " " Now is not the time "
those type of things. Why because they only care 
about themselves and like things the way they are.

When you confront your wife she may tell you it was 
nothing just sex. It meant nothing, and even say it wasn't really 
cheating since it was with a woman etc. More lies and manipulation. 
because she now is facing single life with out your support. She was 
not there to support you now she may want to try and fix things.Not 
for you but for herself. Single life with two kids can be hard for a cheater
who has been exposed.

Cheaters lie and try and manipulate things for themselves. Her marriage
and even Mia probably mean nothing to her. Just her and her alone is 
only what matters to her. Probably the same for Mia. Right now they 
both think they have their husbands and everyone else fooled and 
confused. 

How Jp and Mia husband live their lives is up to them. Right now they 
are both hurting and being cheated on and lied to. Even their physical 
health is being put at risk. Not a life they chose to live. Expose them both
and take back your life JP. Time to start living happy and free from lies 
and infidelity. You deserve better.

Sorry for the rants but I think about Jp Mia husband and the kids. The hurt
and pain these two people have and are going to cause. They are at present 
only engulfed in their little world and time for them to see others have feeling
also. Exposing them and showing them you know the truth is the start.

If either of them wanted out of their marriage they could have said so.
They decided to cheat and hurt people who love them and destroy families.
Not about revenge just JP and Mia husband moving forward. If both of them
become single parents with shared custody even if the live together with 
four kids that will be hard. Because the cloud of cheating will be there.
You did it with me you may do it to me. Then with all of this and what ever
reason they felt they had to cheat still there revenge or Karma sets in.

I have seen many people leave a good relationship then regret it.


----------



## SunCMars

The ending, this ending will be settled, first by JP, then chewed over and digested by the readership here.

All will be consumed, some spit out.

Every morsel will be ogled, sampled and graded using some personal measure of purity.

At the end of some day, most will be satisfied, and be sated.

Yes, the aftertaste will linger, and will do so until the next bitter and sour tragedy befalls all of us here.

JP?

Likely never.will be happy.





[The Helmsman]- Nemesis lets slip her thoughts on this.


----------



## StillSearching

SunCMars said:


> *The ending, this ending will be settled,* first by JP, then chewed over and digested by the readership here.
> 
> All will be consumed, some spit out.
> 
> Every morsel will be ogled, sampled and graded using some personal measure of purity.
> 
> At the end of some day, most will be satisfied, and be sated.
> 
> Yes, the aftertaste will linger, and will do so until the next bitter and sour tragedy befalls all of us here.
> 
> JP?
> 
> Likely never.will be happy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [The Helmsman]- Nemesis lets slip her thoughts on this.


Your right...It may already be settled. 
OP has not been back.


----------



## MattMatt

StillSearching said:


> Your right...It may already be settled.
> OP has not been back.


Hopefully he'll be back when he needs to.


----------



## TDSC60

MattMatt said:


> Hopefully he'll be back when he needs to.


Or IF he needs to. He seems a stable guy who will not second guess himself after seeing the evidence. He will chart his course and follow the plan.

I admit I am curious to find out what has happened.


----------



## personofinterest

Marc878 said:


> Everyone is different. Silence is one of the best weapons you can have.
> 
> It's extremely tough for most people to use though.


This is the mature, self-controlled, adult route.

You can tell a lot about a person by watching how they respond to being mistreated. Do they maintain THEIR class and integrity, or do they go middle school playground?


----------



## PreRaph

TDSC60 said:


> She may be OK with a divorce or even expecting it.


I suspect the same.


----------



## cp3o

SunCMars said:


> The ending, this ending will be settled, first by JP, then chewed over and digested by the readership here.
> 
> All will be consumed, some spit out.
> 
> Every morsel will be ogled, sampled and graded using some personal measure of purity.
> 
> At the end of some day, most will be satisfied, and be sated.
> 
> Yes, the aftertaste will linger, and will do so until the next bitter and sour tragedy befalls all of us here.
> 
> JP?
> 
> Likely never.will be happy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [The Helmsman]- Nemesis lets slip her thoughts on this.


Happy means different things to different people

There's a good chance that, in time, JP will be content and that is, IMO, rather more important.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

God!!!What a thread!!!
I am soo sorry for OP's situation. Hugs and prayers. I do hope he has a good physical and tangible outlet for therapy. Family or close friend. Feeling like the loser of the world with a crap sandwich in hand just kills....But, like many on here, IT will get better.


Geez, bi-sexual affair partner. And to think, the PI caught the OW complaining about her hubby cheating and getting suspicious? WOW.


----------



## sa58

If Mia is complaining about her husband then cheating is not 
a solution. She could be concerned about life alone if he finds 
out. Something she may not be ready for. Both of them may
still be trying to maintain their marriages. JP wife tries and acts like
nothing is wrong and he is crazy or imagining things. They may not
want a divorce once they realize they have to go it without their SO
That may be why so much lying and slipping around.
If they wanted out of their relationship they could have said so.
Reality and exposure will show JP more about her real intentions
leaving or just cheating. For Mia husband also.

If Mia husband is cheating then having sex with Mia and Jp has
sex with his wife maybe chance of STD. 

JP will be hurt for a while but in the end he will be free of infidelity and
this entire mess. It is only about JP and his kids and his life. How he wants 
to proceed not the cheaters. Again they did this not him.

Hope you are doing as well as can be expected JP


----------



## SunCMars

When they do not come back......

Maybe, because there is no suitable place.... to place or bury the ashes of their once happy marriage.
Maybe, because we are no longer seen as important. Our needs, our priorities are last in his presently downhill slide.
Maybe he is angry, just angry at everything.
Maybe his attorney advised him to cease and desist with him posting here.
Maybe his WW has found this blog.
Maybe he did something.....bad.


More maybe's.

The plot has arrived at the end.
The plot was purposely written with an ending held in suspense, the finale kept dangling, keeping its readership on the edges of their chairs.

......................................................................................................................................

Or, his strong facade has cracked, 

He is in shock and in mourning?
......................................................................................................................................

He has taken her back?

He has washed her soiled feet, kissed her forehead, placed his own lips on her soft lips, wiping dry her tears; with both hands, he has brushed aside her sweet smelling hair from her pretty face.
He has absolved her of all, her lust filled sins? 
He is holding her tight, after she pleaded with him, asking him for forgiveness, keeping still, her shaking body. Still keeping her as his own. 
He feels some shame for exposing her....her naked sins, to us virtual onlookers.
.....................................................................................................................................

She unloaded on him, broke his spirit.

.....................................................................................................................................

Other things, maybe dire, have happened, preventing his return to this forum.


----------



## oldshirt

SunCMars said:


> When they do not come back......
> 
> Maybe, because there is no suitable place.... to place or bury the ashes of their once happy marriage.
> Maybe, because we are no longer seen as important. Our needs, our priorities are last in his presently downhill slide.
> Maybe he is angry, just angry at everything.
> Maybe his attorney advised him to cease and desist with him posting here.
> Maybe his WW has found this blog.
> Maybe he did something.....bad.
> 
> 
> More maybe's.
> 
> The plot has arrived at the end.
> The plot was purposely written with an ending held in suspense, the finale kept dangling, keeping its readership on the edges of their chairs.
> 
> ......................................................................................................................................
> 
> Or, his strong facade has cracked,
> 
> He is in shock and in mourning?
> ......................................................................................................................................
> 
> He has taken her back?
> 
> He has washed her soiled feet, kissed her forehead, placed his own lips on her soft lips, wiping dry her tears; with both hands, he has brushed aside her sweet smelling hair from her pretty face.
> He has absolved her of all, her lust filled sins?
> He is holding her tight, after she pleaded with him, asking him for forgiveness, keeping still, her shaking body. Still keeping her as his own.
> He feels some shame for exposing her....her naked sins, to us virtual onlookers.
> .....................................................................................................................................
> 
> She unloaded on him, broke his spirit.
> 
> .....................................................................................................................................
> 
> Other things, maybe dire, have happened, preventing his return to this forum.


Or maybe he's just too busy consulting with lawyers, managing his finances and assets, dealing with fallout, angered WS and AP along with another livid BH and dealing with upset kids, to keep strangers on the internet updated with a play-by-play. 

To us, this is an entertaining cyber soap opera. To him it is real life with very serious real life ramifications. 

Maybe he has caved in and taken her back. Maybe this played out like some porn flick and when he busted them, they giggled and winked and invited him to join in. Maybe he went ballistic and assaulted people and is waiting for his bail to get posted. 

…. a million other possibilities. 

I do hope he comes back and at least lets us know how he is doing.


----------



## StillSearching

It's funny how many BS over the years come here on the precipice of a major decision and never come back to resolve.


----------



## re16

StillSearching said:


> It's funny how many BS over the years come here on the precipice of a major decision and never come back to resolve.


Its only been 5 or so days, hopefully we'll get an update soon that he's been busy serving her and moving her stuff out.


----------



## JayPau

Nothing has changed as far as my plans. I'm going to divorce my wife. I'm going to be seeing my third lawyer today. I was told by the other two lawyers that my wife will be served by a "process server". I have not confronted my wife and I have not told Mia's hubby anything. 

Once I choose my lawyer, I will have her served, probably at her workplace. I will also move out and have a place big enough for my kids. I'm not looking for revenge. I want all of this to end as quickly and quietly as possible. My kids don't need more drama. 

I'm just completely drained. I don't want to fight with my soon to be ex-wife. If it means I lose the house, so be it. So long as I remain very close to me kids, that's all that really matters. 

Lastly, I want to confront my wife and spill the beans to Mia's hubby, but it looks like I will have to wait on that. I need to see what this third lawyer has to say about it.


----------



## Resik2

Glad you’re moving on Jay. Best wishes


----------



## StillSearching

Your lawyer, if he's worth his salt, will tell you not to move out.
Tell her to leave.


----------



## Rob_1

StillSearching said:


> Your lawyer, if he's worth his salt, will tell you not to move out.
> Tell her to leave.


Absolutely. Do not move out. see if she would, because it's her residence also.


----------



## JustWavingNotDrowning

Glad to see you are functioning, JayPau, and as focused as ever. If you are determined to move out then please check with your lawyer that you are not creating a vacuum in the home your kids know into which Mia can slide. If in short time that setup becomes their new normal - you on the outside, Mia on the inside - could you face that emotionally for the next 10 years?

You are facing more than most. Drained is normal. Stay strong. Your self control is awesome. Vent here. Sound off here. You will get to where you need to be.

Best wishes.


----------



## sa58

Sorry to hear you are still having to wait.
Is your wife continuing to see Mia if so I 
can only imagine how hard it is for you.
I understand about the kids as I have said in 
many of my posts best to confront with out them
knowing about it. Confronting your wife and telling 
Mia husband is not about revenge just about relief 
for you. No more living in hell with this from day to
day. 

Do not move out of your house however. She is the one at fault
not you. For what ever reason or excuse she gives you she did this
not you. If she felt this way before or during your marriage she could 
have told you. She could have told you if she was not happy before she
cheated. She did not give you a choice she cheated. She decided to throw 
everything away for this not you! 

Glad you are waiting even thou it hurts I know because if given a chance then her 
and Mia may their and cover their tracks. Remember this also involves Mia and her 
husband. That is not your fault either what happens between them this is your wife and Mia fault.
I understand trying to keep the drama as little as possible but be prepared it may not work out 
that way. If things become unbearable then maybe depending on your lawyers advice confront her.

You are a better man than many I have know to continue to go through this knowing what you know 
and having to remain silent, and looking at her everyday. Your kids have a great father and dad, to bad 
your wife doesn't see that.


----------



## honcho

JayPau said:


> Nothing has changed as far as my plans. I'm going to divorce my wife. I'm going to be seeing my third lawyer today. I was told by the other two lawyers that my wife will be served by a "process server". I have not confronted my wife and I have not told Mia's hubby anything.
> 
> Once I choose my lawyer, I will have her served, probably at her workplace. I will also move out and have a place big enough for my kids. I'm not looking for revenge. I want all of this to end as quickly and quietly as possible. My kids don't need more drama.
> 
> I'm just completely drained. I don't want to fight with my soon to be ex-wife. If it means I lose the house, so be it. So long as I remain very close to me kids, that's all that really matters.
> 
> Lastly, I want to confront my wife and spill the beans to Mia's hubby, but it looks like I will have to wait on that. I need to see what this third lawyer has to say about it.


Skip the confronting your stbx, let the papers being served do that for you. Confronting rarely goes like you want, all you end up hearing is a bunch of lies or blameshifting. Have her served, coordinate to give info to other spouse at the same time and get out of the way and let the cheaters squirm. Silence bothers them much more than confrontation. 

You want to be done, show her your done.


----------



## re16

Moving could affect custody / how he is viewed by the court right? Do you own half the house or is it rented? If you own a part of it, why not tell her to leave? She is one that chose to destroy the marriage and family.

She should be getting the short end of the stick here.


----------



## sa58

Having her served may take some time .
If you get that process started and cannot 
give Mia husband the information then you 
will be stuck knowing and hurting. If the 
process of divorce is started you can 
decide to confront her. As I have said not 
for revenge but relief for you. You can tell 
Mia husband when he returns. You probably 
have enough proof they can not deny things.

Exposure and confronting can and often does 
give the betrayed some relief and may lead to an
end to the affair. Your wife and Mia have no idea that
they have been discovered. They have not made any plans 
for this or anything. Just planning how to sneak around and 
not get caught. If they know they have been caught then 
they may stop seeing each other. After all they have been 
caught and would not want anyone to get more proof. They
now have to concentrate on divorce and what they have been 
caught doing

Unless they are somehow fully intent on divorce and continuing 
their relationship afterwards then it may stop. The end result will 
however be the same. Being discovered and divorce but it is going 
that way anyways. I doubt they even think anyone knows. 

I am only saying this because you are with out a doubt in a lot
of pain and want this over even thou the thought is painful.


----------



## sa58

If you are worried about drama with your wife 
consider doing the following. 

Start the divorce process. It may take some time
If you know when your wife and Mia go to lunch
surprise them then. Tell her you know what is 
going on and present her with some proof.
Tell her you are filling for divorce and tell Mia
that you are informing her husband also. This 
is really all you need to say unless something 
else is needed. Then walk away go get your 
kids and spend some time away with them. 

Your Pi will be able to tell you their reactions 
later. Your wife may try and contact you or 
something. How you respond or when you return
home is then up to you. Unless they are completely 
stupid they will not risk a public confrontation.

Mia husband may have to be informed later


----------



## sokillme

You will set the tone for the rest of your life with how you take this. You should not passively let her take all your fanatical investment such as the house. You have a right to half of all your possessions that includes the house. Fight for what you earned. You can do it in a reasonable way but stand up for yourself. 

It is a universal truth that passive men get cheated on. 

You would be wise to never be passive ever again.


----------



## Decorum

honcho said:


> Skip the confronting your stbx, let the papers being served do that for you. Confronting rarely goes like you want, all you end up hearing is a bunch of lies or blameshifting. Have her served, coordinate to give info to other spouse at the same time and get out of the way and let the cheaters squirm. Silence bothers them much more than confrontation.
> 
> You want to be done, show her your done.


This is good advice, especially here since her reaction is so up in the air.

Serve, and coordinate, then wait, as if you accomplished all that you wanted to.


----------



## Chuck71

JayPau said:


> Nothing has changed as far as my plans. I'm going to divorce my wife. I'm going to be seeing my third lawyer today. I was told by the other two lawyers that my wife will be served by a "process server". I have not confronted my wife and I have not told Mia's hubby anything.
> 
> Once I choose my lawyer, I will have her served, probably at her workplace. I will also move out and have a place big enough for my kids. I'm not looking for revenge. I want all of this to end as quickly and quietly as possible. My kids don't need more drama.
> 
> I'm just completely drained. I don't want to fight with my soon to be ex-wife. If it means I lose the house, so be it. So long as I remain very close to me kids, that's all that really matters.
> 
> Lastly, I want to confront my wife and spill the beans to Mia's hubby, but it looks like I will have to wait on that. I need to see what this third lawyer has to say about it.


Wise man you are..... wise and honorable. Best of luck on your D outcome. You deserve better.

As for confronting, would you consider what @MThomas did?


----------



## jlg07

"If it means I lose the house, so be it"

PLEASE don't do this -- I know you feel down and defeated, but FIGHT for everything you deserve out of this -- SHE is the one who cheated. You need to make sure you get EVERY financial edge you can for you and your children.


----------



## Chuck71

jlg07 said:


> "If it means I lose the house, so be it"
> 
> PLEASE don't do this -- I know you feel down and defeated, but FIGHT for everything you deserve out of this -- SHE is the one who cheated. You need to make sure you get EVERY financial edge you can for you and your children.


I 2nd this.....last I checked real estate isn't cheap in Hawaii. Your kids want familiarity, meaning the

home they've grown up in. You stay at the house, let her ass leave and go shack up with Mia.

Maybe use leverage of mass exposure to force her to be the one to move out.
@JayPau what is the income difference in you and her? This is asked because of child support.


----------



## sa58

Her reaction is going to be the same before or 
after being served. You ruined her little world
she now knows you know the truth. How much 
pain you put yourself threw is up to you. Now 
later or in court same result.


----------



## sa58

Jp

I was in another room when my son confronted his wife.
He wanted me there for his own protection.So I know how
painful that can be. Afterwards we went to my house and he 
did not sleep or eat much for a few days. He told her he knew 
wanted out and joint custody of their child. Later when we went to pick 
up his things her parents were there and she did not say anything to
my son. Just stared at him. Her affair ended the next week.

I understand how hard it must be seeing your wife get up and go see
someone else everyday. Knowing what you know is going on. She still
thinks you have no idea. I urge you for yourself to hire a lawyer start
divorce and then expose and confront them or her. Friday breakfast 
would be good place to start. Unless they have discussed divorcing 
you and Mia husband (doubtful ) then they will have to face reality.
Neither one of them is probably ready for that. If the affair continues 
then you are going to divorce her anyways. I bet it will slow and then end.

Others may have different viewpoints but mine is for you to stop hurting
and let some of the pain out. Nor revenge just you starting to heal and 
move on. I hope you have a lawyer and proceed to heal.

The only things you need to tell her 
You know
You are filing 
and telling Mia husband

Everything else is up to her should she try and make 
excuses and tell you anything else . They will then be in
what some would call damage control. 

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your kids sir.
Start living again.


----------



## Robert22205

Sent you a PM. I wish you well. You are not alone. Check in with us as needed.


----------



## sa58

Jp

When you confront and expose your wife certain things 
may happen

They will no longer be able to sneak off to Mia house
Her husband will know and may show up.

They will not come to your house because you know

They may sneak off to a hotel or some place else
but that will cost money

They may meet up some place dark and low lit

They have not shown themselves in public so 
want to remain hidden

They may still text but you will know what she is doing 
if she does it at home.

They will still fear being watched by your Pi

My point is that their time together will probably become 
lees when exposed. They will not see each other as much
or have a chance to talk alot.

Unless they decide to show themselves in the open 
their afffair may end. Then you can decide how to
proceed with things.

I can not offer you any more advice the rest from here
is up to you.

They will be in covering their tracks mode.
They may even blame each other for their 
lives falling apart. 
Hope I have been some help


----------



## oldshirt

sa58 said:


> Jp
> 
> When you confront and expose your wife certain things
> may happen
> 
> They will no longer be able to sneak off to Mia house
> Her husband will know and may show up.
> 
> They will not come to your house because you know
> 
> They may sneak off to a hotel or some place else
> but that will cost money
> 
> They may meet up some place dark and low lit
> 
> They have not shown themselves in public so
> want to remain hidden
> 
> They may still text but you will know what she is doing
> if she does it at home.
> 
> They will still fear being watched by your Pi
> 
> My point is that their time together will probably become
> lees when exposed. They will not see each other as much
> or have a chance to talk alot.
> 
> Unless they decide to show themselves in the open
> their afffair may end. Then you can decide how to
> proceed with things.
> 
> I can not offer you any more advice the rest from here
> is up to you.
> 
> They will be in covering their tracks mode.
> They may even blame each other for their
> lives falling apart.
> Hope I have been some help


All of that may very we'll be true.

But if his mind is made up to divorce does any of it really matter?

Divorcing and going Gray Rock means you disinvest with your ex and carry on with your own life and leave them in the dust to do whatever they please. 

For all we know, she and Mia may ride off into the sunset living happily ever after traveling the country in a suburu going to Melissa Ethridge concerts. 

Not his circus, not his monkey.


----------



## sa58

Very true but at least exposing them and then 
deciding what to do is a start to taking his life
back and not living in limbo

What ever happens a lot of mess and he is faced with cleaning it up
. I could not blame him for divorcing
but not staying in limbo and hurting no way to live

At least he will know then

This is not about her or Mia they will get what they deserve
divorce or what ever. This is about the other people involved
Him Mia husband and the kids. His last post he was hurting
and knows what is going on. Not good for anyone to feel that way.


----------



## TDSC60

JP,

I've been off-line for a few days, but offer the following advice.

Don't just let her have the house. Follow the lawyer's advice on how joint assets should be divided.

DO NOT tell your STBXW what you plan to do, even when confronting her. Just tell Mia's husband when you are ready. Do not warn your wife that it is coming.

When divorce papers are served she will ask why you are doing this. Your only answer should be "you in an affair and I have proof". 

Do not tell her you are moving out. Do not tell her what your proof is. Do not even tell her you know who the affair partner is. She is the one who left the marriage. She has no right to know what you plan to do.


----------



## jlg07

@JayPau, just checking in to see if you are ok -- I know it has to be tough times for you right now, but you WILL get through it and be better off.


----------



## *Deidre*

Sorry to hear you that things didn't turn around. I didn't go through the entire thread, but I'm assuming she never came around to being sorrowful or apologetic? Keep going forward, you'll get through this. It's hard right now, but it won't always be like this.


----------



## sa58

jp

You are dealing with a lot right now. You knew something was going on
and sorry you found out the truth. I hope you are continuing with your plan.
Confronting her and exposing them to Mia husband. Then divorcing her, from
her actions she deserves nothing else. I hope you are safe and enjoying your kids.
You have all of or support should you need and want it. 

I understand about not wanting to display your entire life and the result of her lies
and deception here. If you read this and are doing well then let us know. You and 
your kids well being is all I am concerned with. 


Hope and pray you are doing well sir.


----------



## Talker67

Luminous said:


> Nope, boundaries were established when they made vows to each other.
> 
> I find it interesting how many people will excuse women being bisexual when they are supposedly in a committed heterosexual relationship/marriage.


i am not saying you need to excuse bad behavior. And doing intimate things with people outside of a marriage WITHOUT PERMISSION FIRST is evil. 

But lets look at some reality. People change over time. Maybe she was bi curious when young, got married, thought that was the end of it, then over many years found her lesbian side getting stronger and stronger. Probably started with her watching lesbian porn, and found it really turned her on.

I draw a very big distinction between her just going out and getting some female love, and her TELLING her husband first, discussing it all, and possibly getting a hall pass to try it out. 

IF your wife suddenly becomes a full lesbian...the marriage is over. period. 
If she is happy once a month, and the rest of the time being a loyal wife you you....for some that would be a acceptable compromise.

And the same holds if you reverse the sexes too.


----------



## personofinterest

TDSC60 said:


> JP,
> 
> I've been off-line for a few days, but offer the following advice.
> 
> Don't just let her have the house. Follow the lawyer's advice on how joint assets should be divided.
> 
> DO NOT tell your STBXW what you plan to do, even when confronting her. Just tell Mia's husband when you are ready. Do not warn your wife that it is coming.
> 
> When divorce papers are served she will ask why you are doing this. Your only answer should be "you in an affair and I have proof".
> 
> Do not tell her you are moving out. Do not tell her what your proof is. Do not even tell her you know who the affair partner is. She is the one who left the marriage. She has no right to know what you plan to do.


Actually, if you REALLY believe the Bible, permission doesn't make adultery okay.

Sorry....no


----------



## cp3o

personofinterest said:


> Actually, if you REALLY believe the Bible, permission doesn't make adultery okay.
> 
> Sorry....no


But then what the Bible says is only relevant if you choose to consider it so - most people don't.


----------



## TDSC60

personofinterest said:


> Actually, if you REALLY believe the Bible, permission doesn't make adultery okay.
> 
> Sorry....no


Say what now?

I have never, ever said adultery was OK in any context.


----------



## OnTheFly

TDSC60 said:


> Say what now?
> 
> I have never, ever said adultery was OK in any context.


I think PersonOfInterest meant to quote Talker67


----------



## personofinterest

OnTheFly said:


> TDSC60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Say what now?
> 
> I have never, ever said adultery was OK in any context.
> 
> 
> 
> I think PersonOfInterest meant to quote Talker67
Click to expand...

I did, sorry. I meant to quote the post that ERRONEOUSLY suggested it isn't adultery if you have permission.


----------



## Talker67

and how many wives did King David have again....?


----------



## OnTheFly

Talker67 said:


> and how many wives did King David have again....?


Polygamy was allowed, and David's child from his adulterous affair with Bathsheba was taken by God as judgment.


----------



## personofinterest

It's important to remember that just because something happened in The Bible S part of the narrative does not mean God was OK with it or that it was his best plan. People murdered in The Bible. That does not mean murder was allowed.


----------



## OnTheFly

personofinterest said:


> It's important to remember that just because something happened in The Bible S part of the narrative does not mean God was OK with it or that it was his best plan. People murdered in The Bible. That does not mean murder was allowed.


If there were two married brothers and one of them died, the other brother (or appropriate male relative) was obliged to marry and impregnate the widow. Read the story of Ruth and Boaz. Jesus is called our Kinsman Redeemer, it is a shadow or ''type'' from this OT concept. 

I agree, polygamy is NOT ideal, but I'm hard pressed to find an explicit condemnation of it in either the OT or NT. Just because kings and weaithy men ''abused'' the allowance doesn't equate it with murder which was ALWAYS wrong.

Also, the story of Onan is helpful.


----------



## gr8ful1

OnTheFly said:


> Polygamy was allowed


Oh really? Sadly most professing Christians don’t spend much time if any studying their Bible (heartbreaking)....

Let’s start with Jesus: Matthew 19:4-5, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and THE TWO shall become one flesh'?”

He’s quoting from Genesis, the clear pattern of God for 1 man, 1 woman marriage. But what about the Old Testament? Well there’s the clear pattern in Genesis 2 but then reinforcements like Deut 17:17 “The king...must not take many wives”. 

So David royally screwed over one of his most loyal warriors (Uriah) by stealing his wife in adultery and then having him murdered. Just because the Bible records what happened in no way means God condoned such behavior. 

If you were to do a careful study of every man who clearly went against the marriage pattern and command of God in polygamy you’ll see in every case it was a disaster long term (start with a study of how David’s kids treated one another from different mothers). Sometimes God speaks through the consequences of sin instead of immediate condemnation.


----------



## cp3o

gr8ful1 said:


> Sometimes God speaks through the consequences of sin instead of immediate condemnation.


You are making an assumption, indeed several assumptions, which you are quite entitled to make. They are, however, assumptions unsupported by valid evidence, logical argument or rational necessity.

I suggest that it is more important that we support an individual's reaction to infidelity which is rooted in their personal morality than arguing about the views of an overwhelmingly unlikely deity as perceived through dubious authorship, many copyings and multiple translations.

Everyone is entitled to their supernatural belief - we are not, IMO, entitled to present belief as certain knowledge in order to persuade others that our personal convictions are to be accepted, without explicit acceptance, as binding upon anyone other than ourselves.


----------



## oldshirt

since all the basketball brackets and office pools are winding down shall we start an office pool and see who comes closest to guessing what has happened to Jay?

Let me see how many possible outcomes I can think of to explain his absence and what he is up to -

- he is following through on his plan to divorce and has been tied up dealing with lawyers, paperwork, squaring away finances, dealing with nosey in-laws and pissed off OW and her OBH. (very possible scenario, but not as glamorous as some of the others) 

- She caught wind of him finding out and getting ready to blow the lid of the affair so she knocked him off before he could cancel his life insurance and now they are partying it up in the Bahamas.(the Saturday afternoon cable TV crime drama ending)

-He and OBH confronted them and told them to knock it off and instead they split town in a convertible and are on the lamb living it up across the country while the two BH's try to track them down. (the Thelma and Louise ending) 

- He confronted her about his suspicions and she winked at him and told him to come with her to Mia's house and as they walked in the door the '70s porn music started up in the background and when they get to the bedroom door Mia on the bed in stockings and a garter belt using a vibrator on herself and says, "it's about time he figured it out and decided to join in!!" (the porn ending)

- The WW has actually been faking the affair and setting things up to frame him into make it look like he was discovering an affair, putting him into a jealous rage and then she faked her own disappearance and possible death so that he is the person of suspicion and investigated as a wife killer while she takes off with the money and assumes a new identity as he fights to stay out of prison and the possible death penalty (The Gone Girl ending) 

- He followed them to Mia's house and hid in the bushes until they were in full stride and then he bursts into the room and as he is confronting them he sees something strange on the back of Mia's neck and he pulls on it which removes the Mia mask and reveals it is actually Mia's husband in disquise! And as the police are hauling him away, he shouts, "And I would've got away with it if it wasn't for these meddling TAM'ers!!" (the Scooby Doo ending) 

- He has the kids in the car and is driving recklessly to catch her in the act with Mia and as he is coming down the street he turns off the headlights and goes to pull into the driveway like a stunt car driver - but unbeknownst to him she and Mia are in the car getting down and she is sucking on Mia's boobs and as he swerves into the driveway he rams headlong into their car, killing one of the kids, the other looses an eye, he breaks his neck, Mia looses a tit and WW has her jaw wired shut and can't talk (The World According to Garp ending) 

-He quietly kills her, dismembers her body and disposes of the parts in a rural creek to be found by two boys out walking their dog. (the Stephen Falkenberg ending)

That's what I could think of. Does anyone want to place any bets on those or does anyone else have any other ideas what may be going down with this saga now?


----------



## [email protected]

In Juedeo-Christian theology, all sexual sin come under the heading of fornication. Whether people did it or not, justified it or not, adultery after Moses was sexual sin. Watch out for the rocks!


----------



## OnTheFly

gr8ful1 said:


> Oh really? Sadly most professing Christians don’t spend much time if any studying their Bible (heartbreaking)....
> 
> Let’s start with Jesus: Matthew 19:4-5, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and THE TWO shall become one flesh'?”
> 
> He’s quoting from Genesis, the clear pattern of God for 1 man, 1 woman marriage. But what about the Old Testament? Well there’s the clear pattern in Genesis 2 but then reinforcements like Deut 17:17 “The king...must not take many wives”.
> 
> So David royally screwed over one of his most loyal warriors (Uriah) by stealing his wife in adultery and then having him murdered. Just because the Bible records what happened in no way means God condoned such behavior.
> 
> If you were to do a careful study of every man who clearly went against the marriage pattern and command of God in polygamy you’ll see in every case it was a disaster long term (start with a study of how David’s kids treated one another from different mothers). Sometimes God speaks through the consequences of sin instead of immediate condemnation.



I thought this was the thread started by RedOak, I'll copy/paste this and respond there. Didn't mean to thread jack Jay's thread.

Edit: Nevermind, I've addressed all points there already in previous posts.


----------



## Goose54

I’m putting $5 on Scooby Doo, please.


----------



## skerzoid

JP

How about an update? These folks are going to thread jack us into oblivion. Save us from ourselves.


----------



## Nucking Futs

OP hasn't been here in almost 2 weeks, may be time to clean up the thread jacks and lock it until he comes back.


----------



## re16

oldshirt said:


> That's what I could think of. Does anyone want to place any bets on those or does anyone else have any other ideas what may be going down with this saga now?


Don't leave out the most common scenario... JP confronted, she denied and gaslighted so well that JP began to doubt the evidence, she then told JP how the whole thing was his fault and he decided to try to be a better husband so this wouldn't happen again... this version ends a painful year from now when he catches her again, realizes he was duped, and then finds out from all their mutual friends that they knew all along and there were other affairs.


----------



## just got it 55

oldshirt said:


> since all the basketball brackets and office pools are winding down shall we start an office pool and see who comes closest to guessing what has happened to Jay?
> 
> Let me see how many possible outcomes I can think of to explain his absence and what he is up to -
> 
> - he is following through on his plan to divorce and has been tied up dealing with lawyers, paperwork, squaring away finances, dealing with nosey in-laws and pissed off OW and her OBH. (very possible scenario, but not as glamorous as some of the others)
> 
> - She caught wind of him finding out and getting ready to blow the lid of the affair so she knocked him off before he could cancel his life insurance and now they are partying it up in the Bahamas.(the Saturday afternoon cable TV crime drama ending)
> 
> -He and OBH confronted them and told them to knock it off and instead they split town in a convertible and are on the lamb living it up across the country while the two BH's try to track them down. (the Thelma and Louise ending)
> 
> - He confronted her about his suspicions and she winked at him and told him to come with her to Mia's house and as they walked in the door the '70s porn music started up in the background and when they get to the bedroom door Mia on the bed in stockings and a garter belt using a vibrator on herself and says, "it's about time he figured it out and decided to join in!!" (the porn ending)
> 
> - The WW has actually been faking the affair and setting things up to frame him into make it look like he was discovering an affair, putting him into a jealous rage and then she faked her own disappearance and possible death so that he is the person of suspicion and investigated as a wife killer while she takes off with the money and assumes a new identity as he fights to stay out of prison and the possible death penalty (The Gone Girl ending)
> 
> - He followed them to Mia's house and hid in the bushes until they were in full stride and then he bursts into the room and as he is confronting them he sees something strange on the back of Mia's neck and he pulls on it which removes the Mia mask and reveals it is actually Mia's husband in disquise! And as the police are hauling him away, he shouts, "And I would've got away with it if it wasn't for these meddling TAM'ers!!" (the Scooby Doo ending)
> 
> - He has the kids in the car and is driving recklessly to catch her in the act with Mia and as he is coming down the street he turns off the headlights and goes to pull into the driveway like a stunt car driver - but unbeknownst to him she and Mia are in the car getting down and she is sucking on Mia's boobs and as he swerves into the driveway he rams headlong into their car, killing one of the kids, the other looses an eye, he breaks his neck, Mia looses a tit and WW has her jaw wired shut and can't talk (The World According to Garp ending)
> 
> -He quietly kills her, dismembers her body and disposes of the parts in a rural creek to be found by two boys out walking their dog. (the Stephen Falkenberg ending)
> 
> That's what I could think of. Does anyone want to place any bets on those or does anyone else have any other ideas what may be going down with this saga now?


Why speculate Just pick one and run with it

55


----------



## Decorum

Clean up the thread jacks? 

Don't delete this one I have a banana nut bread receipe I want to share.


----------



## Talker67

just got it 55 said:


> Why speculate Just pick one and run with it
> 
> 55



the porn ending sounds the best!
:smile2:


----------



## JayPau

A lot has happened in the last two weeks. I'm finally starting to sleep better and I'm starting to eat a bit more. I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I have lost a bit of weight throughout this prolonged nightmare. Okay, where to begin. I have retained a lawyer, and I filed for divorce more than a week ago. My wife has not been served yet. For some reason it takes time here. I do expect it to happen in the next two days, tho. She will be served at her office. 

I have not confronted her, not because she has not been served, but I do not see how it will help me in the long or short term. I did have a long lunch with Mia's husband two days ago. I shared EVERYTHING I had on our wives. He was not shocked there was an affair, only that our wives have been together. I told him he could do whatever he wants with the pics and videos I gave him. It turns out he confronted his wife yesterday and all she did was lie more and piss him off. She said he was a low life for watching her and taking the pics/videos. I'm certain my wife is well aware of all of this, but she's incredibly good at hiding things. Mia still does not know that I hired the PI and simply passed all of the info to her hubby.

Once my wife is served, I'm sure we'll have an unpleasant conversation. At that point I will let her know what I know and why I'm divorcing her without being confrontational. I'm not going to allow myself to get caught again in arguments where she lies, lies, lies. I'm finished with it. I want her to leave our house and have our kids stay with me. If things turn ugly, I can have my kids stay at my parents house. They have been incredible supportive of me the last two weeks.

I have to say the best advice I got from this forum was the following: keep your mouth shut and your eyes open, hire a PI, hire a lawyer. All of these things helped me immensely. Months ago I was angry, then I became horribly sad and lonely. Right now I'm trying to accept what's happening and where things might be heading. I'm hoping for an uncontested divorce, but I'm not counting on it happening. I'm still preparing for the worst. I'll fight if I have to.


----------



## GusPolinski

JayPau said:


> A lot has happened in the last two weeks. I'm finally starting to sleep better and I'm starting to eat a bit more. I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I have lost a bit of weight throughout this prolonged nightmare. Okay, where to begin. I have retained a lawyer, and I filed for divorce more than a week ago. My wife has not been served yet. For some reason it takes time here. I do expect it to happen in the next two days, tho. She will be served at her office.
> 
> I have not confronted her, not because she has not been served, but I do not see how it will help me in the long or short term. I did have a long lunch with Mia's husband two days ago. I shared EVERYTHING I had on our wives. He was not shocked there was an affair, only that our wives have been together. I told him he could do whatever he wants with the pics and videos I gave him. It turns out he confronted his wife yesterday and all she did was lie more and piss him off. She said he was a low life for watching her and taking the pics/videos. I'm certain my wife is well aware of all of this, but she's incredibly good at hiding things. Mia still does not know that I hired the PI and simply passed all of the info to her hubby.
> 
> Once my wife is served, I'm sure we'll have an unpleasant conversation. At that point I will let her know what I know and why I'm divorcing her without being confrontational. I'm not going to allow myself to get caught again in arguments where she lies, lies, lies. I'm finished with it. I want her to leave our house and have our kids stay with me. If things turn ugly, I can have my kids stay at my parents house. They have been incredible supportive of me the last two weeks.
> 
> I have to say the best advice I got from this forum was the following: keep your mouth shut and your eyes open, hire a PI, hire a lawyer. All of these things helped me immensely. Months ago I was angry, then I became horribly sad and lonely. Right now I'm trying to accept what's happening and where things might be heading. I'm hoping for an uncontested divorce, but I'm not counting on it happening. I'm still preparing for the worst. I'll fight if I have to.


It’s VAR time.


----------



## Marc878

You've handled this well. Confrontation gets you nothing if you just want divorce. 

You really don't need to talk much since it's over. You'll find it won't get you a thing except an extended stay in this mess.

Actions are all that really count.

Keep moving forward.


----------



## jlg07

JayPau, as Gus said -- KEEP a VAR on you at all times now, especially if/when you talk to her after she is served.
A) so that you can go back and review the conversation -- you will be emotional and forget half the stuff you spoke about, and B) so that she can't fabricate something against you.

Just keep to your plan.


----------



## wilson

Also get an app which will record your phone calls so you have a record of those. I believe Hawaii is a one-party state, so you should be legal to record without telling the other person.


----------



## Marc878

JayPau said:


> *Once my wife is served, I'm sure we'll have an unpleasant conversation.* At that point I will let her know what I know and why I'm divorcing her without being confrontational.


It's really up to you. You can just have her served and refuse to discuss anything except kids and business. 

IMO the less said the better. Man she knows she's a cheater you don't really have to tell her that.


----------



## colingrant

Your brilliance was simply listening and following good advice. Your emotional state helped tremendously though. After being here for a while, I've found the BS who are mad are the ones who act. The ones who are sad (and wallow in their sadness) are taken through the ringer. You chose to be the hammer and not the nail.

You've also displayed unusual poise, patience and tact. To refrain from confronting for over a week, while stealthily notifying the other BS was masterful. Again, few are able to pull this off. You nearly have a match though in your wife. Her ability to remain outwardly unfazed while her AP's transgressions were uncovered is in itself an impressive feat, although not in a good way, but in a cheaters way.


----------



## niceguy47460

You wife may think you don't know anything yet . if mia's husband may not have told mia that you know . how is she acting around you . i am very glad you are staying strong . i would say once she is served she will be very pissed and not know really what to do . do keep a VAR on you fof them conversations so she don't try and hang you with something .


----------



## MattMatt

Thanks for the update. Keep your wits about you.


----------



## syhoybenden

jlg07 said:


> JayPau, as Gus said -- KEEP a VAR on you at all times now, especially if/when you talk to her after she is served.
> A) so that you can go back and review the conversation -- you will be emotional and forget half the stuff you spoke about, and B) so that she can't fabricate something against you.
> 
> Just keep to your plan.


Not just on your person but also in her favourite location to make calls, be it bedroom, bathroom or in the car.



Forewarned is forearmed.


----------



## sa58

JayPau said:


> A lot has happened in the last two weeks. I'm finally starting to sleep better and I'm starting to eat a bit more. I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I have lost a bit of weight throughout this prolonged nightmare. Okay, where to begin. I have retained a lawyer, and I filed for divorce more than a week ago. My wife has not been served yet. For some reason it takes time here. I do expect it to happen in the next two days, tho. She will be served at her office.
> 
> I have not confronted her, not because she has not been served, but I do not see how it will help me in the long or short term. I did have a long lunch with Mia's husband two days ago. I shared EVERYTHING I had on our wives. He was not shocked there was an affair, only that our wives have been together. I told him he could do whatever he wants with the pics and videos I gave him. It turns out he confronted his wife yesterday and all she did was lie more and piss him off. She said he was a low life for watching her and taking the pics/videos. I'm certain my wife is well aware of all of this, but she's incredibly good at hiding things. Mia still does not know that I hired the PI and simply passed all of the info to her hubby.
> 
> Once my wife is served, I'm sure we'll have an unpleasant conversation. At that point I will let her know what I know and why I'm divorcing her without being confrontational. I'm not going to allow myself to get caught again in arguments where she lies, lies, lies. I'm finished with it. I want her to leave our house and have our kids stay with me. If things turn ugly, I can have my kids stay at my parents house. They have been incredible supportive of me the last two weeks.
> 
> I have to say the best advice I got from this forum was the following: keep your mouth shut and your eyes open, hire a PI, hire a lawyer. All of these things helped me immensely. Months ago I was angry, then I became horribly sad and lonely. Right now I'm trying to accept what's happening and where things might be heading. I'm hoping for an uncontested divorce, but I'm not counting on it happening. I'm still preparing for the worst. I'll fight if I have to.


Glad to hear you and your kids are doing well. What his wife did is something you may expect 
from your wife all so. He is a low life for watching her? She is a low life for cheating, guess she forgot that part. Your wife may or may not
think you are aware of what has been going on. When she is served she is probably going to be very upset 
because she will then realize you have know for a while. 
They have probably already talked and glad you are ready for her lies
and more lies. Don;t fall for the tears and I am sorry routine either, more lies. 
Glad you have a support network there Just a suggestion but if they know what is going on,
when she is served have one of them near ( another room in the 
house ) to avoid any false accusations. That is what my son did when he confronted his ex. I was there and it was hard seeing him go through that, but he needed me afterwards. Mia marriage was screwed up and your wife let her screw up hers. If Mia husband was not shocked about
an affair she may have done this before. Maybe your will want to keep this quiet and agree to a uncontested divorce, if needed suggest that to her!!
If not fight, fight, you deserve better. 

She has thrown away a good life for someone who probably has cheated before and will again.


----------



## Chaparral

Your wife is losing a hell of a good man. 

Wishing the best to you and your kids.


----------



## Robert22205

Thank you for the update. Your story (how you feel and what you do etc / every stage of it) will help all that follow this same path of betrayal. Your wife's reactions/strategy after being served and throughout the D proceeding is valuable to the next victims of adultery. Our strength is sharing our collective experiences/advice. 

Your wife is likely very worried that's it's just a matter of time before the OW's husband shares the pics/videos with you.

Therefore, assume your wife is formulating her strategy for dealing with exposure.

Prepare yourself mentally for a tearful confession throwing herself at your mercy saying: how much she loves you and will do anything to fix it.

Your response, among other things, should consider: the confession is not voluntary and that the affair would be ongoing if you didn't hire a PI.
As a cheater her personality profile (in spite of the tears) still consists of: selfishness, entitlement, lacking empathy and lying.

IMO the confrontation is not a debate contest - the strongest response is to say nothing and let your action (of filing for D) speak for you.


----------



## Hoosier

OP, you are doing great. But VAR up! I understand the weight loss, I lost 18 pounds in the first 9 days after finding out about my xw affair. Eat healthy, exercise and come back here to vent!


----------



## wilson

syhoybenden said:


> Not just on your person but also in her favourite location to make calls, be it bedroom, bathroom or in the car.


While I support doing this, keep in mind that it is illegal to record conversations to which you are not part of. In some states (like Hawaii) you can secretly record a conversation you are having with someone else. But no state allows recording of a conversation you are not part of. So keep that in mind if you go this route as to how much you reveal.


----------



## TDSC60

Thanks for the update. Sounds like you have a good plan.

I'm interested to hear how your wife reacts once she is served. She will probably assume that Mia's husband was the one who discovered the affair and told you. 

Watch her closely. How is she interacting with you now? More affectionate? Less affectionate? Nervous? 

If you have not opened a new band account, now is the time. If you have joint accounts, keep an eye on them.

And yes, get that VAR or the phone recording app. It is more common than you would think for a cheating wife to call the police and claim fear of domestic violence and the husband gets hauled off to jail.

Just remember to not raise your voice and stay calm.


----------



## sa58

JP

I sure someone has said this before.

When she is served

You do not have to tell her everything you know
How you know, just that you know, and she needs to
leave !!

Remember you have a lot of proof that she probably
does not want revealed to a lot of people. Keep
it safe and only use it if needed


----------



## re16

I find it amazing that your wife is not showing any signs. I would think she would be scared to death that she will be caught after Mia's husband confronted with evidence.

I would say to be careful with what she might be plotting.

You don't want to come home one day and realize you've been locked out and Mia has moved in.

All the VAR comments are good... be sure to do that.

You are doing great.

Maybe the threat of exposure will help you negotiate an advantageous uncontested divorce.


----------



## StillSearching

re16 said:


> *I find it amazing that your wife is not showing any signs. I would think she would be scared to death that she will be caught after Mia's husband's confronted with evidence.
> *
> I would say to be careful with what she might be plotting.
> 
> You don't want to come home one day and realize you've been locked out and Mia has moved in.
> 
> All the VAR comments are good... be sure to do that.
> 
> You are doing great.
> 
> Maybe the threat of exposure will help you negotiate an advantageous uncontested divorce.


This is unbelievable to me.
I mean that in every sense.


----------



## sa58

re16 said:


> I find it amazing that your wife is not showing any signs. I would think she would be scared to death that she will be caught after Mia's husband's confronted with evidence.
> 
> I would say to be careful with what she might be plotting.
> 
> You don't want to come home one day and realize you've been locked out and Mia has moved in.
> 
> All the VAR comments are good... be sure to do that.
> 
> You are doing great.
> 
> Maybe the threat of exposure will help you negotiate an advantageous uncontested divorce.


She may not really care, or think he doesn't know yet.
Mia thinks that her husband got the proof, not JP
She can't lock him out it is his residence to.
If she does file a police report, more for the divorce.

One thing for sure they can't go to either house now.


----------



## re16

sa58 said:


> One thing for sure they can't go to either house now.


Good point. If they think Mia's is under surveillance, they might need to find a new abode.

Watch the dollars, money she spends on the affair can be returned in the divorce, she might end up spending on hotels etc.


----------



## sa58

re16 said:


> Good point. If they think Mia's is under surveillance, they might need to find a new abode.
> 
> Watch the dollars, money she spends on the affair can be returned in the divorce, she might end up spending on hotels etc.


I think their time together will be less and less once Jp wife is served. 
They will both realize that their actions have been known for sometime.
They will only be concerned about themselves, not each other.
Divorce can be time consuming to fight and lawyers can cost.


----------



## colingrant

Your intel work will pay off for you, perhaps more than you know. It just occurred to me that she's playing coy while forming her own story line (lies) and corroborating it with what her AP told her husband. The incriminating parts are the one's she's spending the most time thinking about and form a plausible explanation. 

As you stated in a previous post, your fact finding will enable you to dismiss her lies and move forward with your plan. Textbook, betrayed spouse, post DD planning and execution on your part. Gas lighting, minimizing, blame shifting and history rewriting are griefs you don't have engage with her now. This alone will remove weeks or months of going back and forth, hoping, wondering and trying to get to the truth. Nice ass job!


----------



## syhoybenden

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlg07 View Post
JayPau, as Gus said -- KEEP a VAR on you at all times now, especially if/when you talk to her after she is served.
A) so that you can go back and review the conversation -- you will be emotional and forget half the stuff you spoke about, and B) so that she can't fabricate something against you.

Just keep to your plan.


I added:
Not just on your person but also in her favourite location to make calls, be it bedroom, bathroom or in the car.




wilson said:


> While I support doing this, keep in mind that it is illegal to record conversations to which you are not part of. In some states (like Hawaii) you can secretly record a conversation you are having with someone else. But no state allows recording of a conversation you are not part of. So keep that in mind if you go this route as to how much you reveal.



I never said that this information was to be used in court.

It is intelligence gathering and self defence..

He is to protect himself by having an insight into her thoughts, deceptions and plans.


----------



## niceguy47460

I would say mia is trying to do damage control with her husband because she is afriad to lose what she has . since jp has not confronted his wife yet she is probably thinking she has got away with it . i think that once she is served she is going to lose her mind .


----------



## SunCMars

@JayPau..... James Paul.

You lost so many things.

You lost a once loving wife.
You lost the mother of your children.
You lost inches off of your waist. 

The needle on your bathroom scale faltered, you fasted, it lost the desire to climb higher.

You lost not the anger, did lose the nagging agony of the wait. 
No more waiting to find out the truth.

You weighed her actions, and her true weight in your marriage.
You weighed her truth, her loving worth, it came up short, it having leaked into, past her lovers lips.

Her half, her side, her pan on Justice's Scale, lightened, ah, no darkened. 
Both.

She pissed away so much of her weighted value into her lover's bedpan. 
Did so as they writhed, wiggled and caressed.

The wait, is over, your weight has lessened.
The exposure is not over. That comes on the serving platter, her dried fruit entree'.

This lesson is now learned.

When your SO seemingly shares their love with another, one's doubt grows, the truth of the matter, the answer awaits.
Your' waist changes, one's weight follows, often downward, following they, your love, the love of your life.

What a terrible way to lose weight, to end the wait.


With the cheater exposed and outed, with they being dumped off the Justice Scale, their 'owned', weighted pan.
That marriage loses, not by half the weight, rather loses all, leaving none to tip, to teeter up and down either, both sides of the scale.

That marital scale is abandoned, left to rust in some dark corner, remaining some sad chapter in two lives, no, in many so lives that abut.
Those that did so touch the formerly married pair.

All for a kiss, a romp on a soft, a feathered bed.

Lust has no boundaries, the owner of such lust must let it run its course onto the wed-matched pair, not on some flighty feathered bird seen in life's mirror.

In the end, this pairs end, I wish for all to be happy, none to be weighted down with lust-less sadness.

Honesty would have prevented all this.
Honesty is usually set aside, is buried, is layered over with silt and sand, by shifting winds and desires.
Honestly, honesty seems to be ever made out of reach, it is feared and it is shoved aside.
Honesty given, guarantees future shame, allows the flames of deceit to burst outward, once given air. Given the air of truth. 

Plus, honesty dampens the lust of secret loves and liaisons. Trysts that thrust into the heart that of one's partners trust. 
For to many, it feels better to fuss and thrust about in the shade, in the dark, secretly done under the noses of close others, unknowing others.

Secrecy, adds the spice that honesty, honestly washes off.

Love feels good, feels better when the lovers have opened eyes, their loving others are kept in the dark.





[The Helmsman]- The Typist I 'ad hoc' opines.


----------



## Affaircare

wilson said:


> While I support doing this, keep in mind that it is illegal to record conversations to which you are not part of. In some states (like Hawaii) you can secretly record a conversation you are having with someone else. But no state allows recording of a conversation you are not part of. So keep that in mind if you go this route as to how much you reveal.


UGH--it always bothers me when this is put out there as a reason to "NOT" record. Just for the record, here is a link to the Federal and State laws regarding recording phone calls and conversations. Look up your own state's laws and follow them: 
https://www.justia.com/50-state-surveys/recording-phone-calls-and-conversations/

The basic idea, though, is for protection of both of you, so that no false abuse or domestic violence claims can be made by either party. No false claims of he said/she said can be made either..or "I didn't agree to that" etc. 

Even if your state is a two-party state, all you do is hold the VAR out in front of you in your hand (turned on) and say: "I am recording our conversation. I give my consent to record. If you speak to me, I will take that as your consent to record. If you do not want to be recorded, do not speak and walk away. Thank you." 

If she speaks, you have fulfilled the requirements for any one-party or two-party state and it would even be admissible in a court of law. If she does not speak, then there can be no claim of abuse or domestic violence AND she leaves you alone! Both parties are LEGALLY protected.


----------



## wilson

syhoybenden said:


> I never said that this information was to be used in court.
> 
> It is intelligence gathering and self defence..
> 
> He is to protect himself by having an insight into her thoughts, deceptions and plans.


Right. No problem with that. I just mentioned the legality of hiding VARs because otherwise he might blurt out to her or someone else that he was secretly recording her, which could get him to legal trouble. The recordings should just be for his personal benefit and he should never reveal to anyone how he got them.


----------



## personofinterest

Affaircare said:


> UGH--it always bothers me when this is put out there as a reason to "NOT" record. Just for the record, here is a link to the Federal and State laws regarding recording phone calls and conversations. Look up your own state's laws and follow them:
> https://www.justia.com/50-state-surveys/recording-phone-calls-and-conversations/
> 
> The basic idea, though, is for protection of both of you, so that no false abuse or domestic violence claims can be made by either party. No false claims of he said/she said can be made either..or "I didn't agree to that" etc.
> 
> Even if your state is a two-party state, all you do is hold the VAR out in front of you in your hand (turned on) and say: "I am recording our conversation. I give my consent to record. If you speak to me, I will take that as your consent to record. If you do not want to be recorded, do not speak and walk away. Thank you."
> 
> If she speaks, you have fulfilled the requirements for any one-party or two-party state and it would even be admissible in a court of law. If she does not speak, then there can be no claim of abuse or domestic violence AND she leaves you alone! Both parties are LEGALLY protected.


Okay....does this include the OP recording conversations he is not even part of that take place elsewhere? Because THAT is what was recommended.


----------



## wilson

personofinterest said:


> Okay....does this include the OP recording conversations he is not even part of that take place elsewhere? Because THAT is what was recommended.


Just to be clear: No, you are not allowed to secretly record conversations you are not a part of. That is illegal. Law enforcement have to get a court order in order to be able to tap phones, hide recorders, etc. But a person may make a personal decision to do so because the information gained is worth the risk, like a BS trying to find out what's going on. But if the BS tells the WS, "I hid a recorder in your car and heard you say ....", they have opened themselves up to legal trouble.


----------



## Affaircare

jlg07 said:


> JayPau, as Gus said -- KEEP a VAR on you at all times now, especially if/when you talk to her after she is served.
> A) so that you can go back and review the conversation -- you will be emotional and forget half the stuff you spoke about, and B) so that she can't fabricate something against you.
> 
> Just keep to your plan.





wilson said:


> Also get an app which will record your phone calls so you have a record of those. I believe Hawaii is a one-party state, so you should be legal to record without telling the other person.


 @JayPau, 

Just to be clear, here are the specific recording suggestions/recommendations. 1) Keep a VAR on you for any time you have a conversation with her. That would be a conversation which you are a part of, and if your state is a one-party state, then you giving your own consent as a party in the convo would suffice. It would be legal and usable in a court of law, if necessary. 

2) The app to record your phone calls would again be calls between YOU and HER...and if you're in a one-party state, then your own permission would be sufficient. It would be legal and usable in a court of law, if necessary (to prove she agreed, to prove you disagreed, to prove there was no abuse, etc.)

This is 100% NOT a suggestion for recording her calls to other parties, which would indeed be an illegal activity and not usable as evidence in a court of law.


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## Hoosier

i wouldnt be worried about the legality of the recording at all. I just see that if she were to say he said something, and he didnt, having a recording, while not admissable in court, could go a long way in backing up his story.


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## skerzoid

JayPau:

Since you are set on divorce, the use of recording devices should only be used as protection against untrue accusations. Letting her know that she is being recorded is necessary if she is being aggressive or trying to get a false RO.

If a confrontation takes place:

*1. Have your responses written out.* That way you get everything you want to say covered emotionally and legally. Don't say more than you have to.

*2. Have your strategy worked out with your lawyer before hand*. Have your responses to her possible accusations, excuses, and or lies covered.

*3. Never expose your sources.* If she wants to think Mia's husband is the source, let her think so. You may have more need of the PI before this is over.
*
4. Do not give in to her coming on to you for sex.* It is manipulation and will be considered forgiveness by a judge.

*5. You have shown admirable strength, courage, and decisiveness. Keep on keepin' on!*


----------



## JayPau

An interesting thing happened last night. I missed a call from Mia's husband a little after 7:30pm. I know my wife saw the missed call and voicemail notification on my phone. The expression on her face changed dramatically. She looked terrified. Has not said much, but did try to get me to go to sleep with her last night and I refused. I've been sleeping in my home office for about two weeks. We haven't had sex in more than a month. The way she kissed me on the cheek before she left for work this morning was different. Then when she arrived at work (or so she says) she texted me and told me to have a nice day with a bunch of kissy emoji's.

She knows that I know everything and she does not know what to do with herself. This makes it easier for me. Once she is served, that's it. I don't need to say a thing. Of course, I still have this need at times to just let it all out. It's been brutal keeping it to myself. She just does not realize how sad and lonely I am. Sure we've been in the same house, but I'm alone. I keep telling myself to just accept it and move on, but it's so ****ing hard to do. I still find myself breaking down when I'm alone, or even just around my kids. My daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. I still say to myself that I can handle this, I can get through this. But with kids, my emotions are at a whole different level. It's just so damn hard to keep it together when I'm around them. 

I'm going to talk with my lawyer about using a VAR.


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## TDSC60

Has anyone ever heard of someone being prosecuted for recording a person's voice when they were not aware of it? I haven't.

All he is really after at this point is to protect himself against a bogus domestic violence charge.

It really is very simple. He keeps a VAR on him while she is around him after she is served. If she tries to charge domestic violence, it will come down to he said/she said when the police arrive. If they ask him what was said he can suddenly remember the VAR he had in his pocket for a business meeting. If they say play it, he is home free. If they say it is illegal, he just tells them he did not know and he will erase it.

If it is a one party state, he is well within his legal rights.


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## Taxman

With respect to the VAR, it is only to be used as a defensive weapon. Jay has already gathered enough by the use of an investigator. The evidence is conclusive. A VAR and or hidden cameras are used to avoid false accusations.

Jay, I am going to echo what many have said here. Please have a VAR on you and ready to go at all times, but especially after she is served. A VAR will go a long way with the police if you are falsely accused. You are using it as a defensive weapon. Things that you would normally never consider, can and do happen. If she wants to have a discussion with you after service has been effected, I suggest that you use a public place, such as a restaurant or quiet lounge. You have approximately 24-48hrs before the cat is completely out of the bag. Right now, given the behavior described, she is not quite sure what you do or do not know. She may believe that Mia's husband independently discovered the affair, and that phone call that you missed could have been Mia's husband attempting to contact you. That is my hunch at the moment.

You are now in a chess game. Good luck.


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## TDSC60

JayPau said:


> An interesting thing happened last night. I missed a call from Mia's husband a little after 7:30pm. I know my wife saw the missed call and voicemail notification on my phone. The expression on her face changed dramatically. She looked terrified. Has not said much, but did try to get me to go to sleep with her last night and I refused. I've been sleeping in my home office for about two weeks. We haven't had sex in more than a month. The way she kissed me on the cheek before she left for work this morning was different. Then when she arrived at work (or so she says) she texted me and told me to have a nice day with a bunch of kissy emoji's.
> 
> She knows that I know everything and she does not know what to do with herself. This makes it easier for me. Once she is served, that's it. I don't need to say a thing. Of course, I still have this need at times to just let it all out. It's been brutal keeping it to myself. She just does not realize how sad and lonely I am. Sure we've been in the same house, but I'm alone. I keep telling myself to just accept it and move on, but it's so ****ing hard to do. I still find myself breaking down when I'm alone, or even just around my kids. My daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. I still say to myself that I can handle this, I can get through this. But with kids, my emotions are at a whole different level. It's just so damn hard to keep it together when I'm around them.
> 
> I'm going to talk with my lawyer about using a VAR.


Do not sleep with her. In some states a resumption of marital sex after learning of an affair is seen as evidence of forgiveness. 

I am not sure she knows that you know everything. But am certain she fears that you soon will. Get ready for snot nosed crying and begging - and more lies.

You are just beginning the process. You have not had time to mourn the death of your marriage and the loss of what you thought to be a faithful wife. Work through the grief process. You will feel better off in the end without all the deception and lies she has been feeding you.


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## Taxman

One thing I do know, especially in a case such as this, there will be a lot intolerance and accusations of intolerance flung about. I have had this a few times over the years. It is impossible to keep age old prejudices out of this. Bad enough that it is an infidelity situation, the added same sex component will make for some heated arguments in a number of quarters. I wish it were different, however, experience tells me that it is unavoidable.


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## 3Xnocharm

JP, thank you for updating us, you have amazing strength, sir. I hope she is served ASAP so you can let all this out.


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## notmyjamie

JayPau said:


> An interesting thing happened last night. I missed a call from Mia's husband a little after 7:30pm. I know my wife saw the missed call and voicemail notification on my phone. The expression on her face changed dramatically. She looked terrified. Has not said much, but did try to get me to go to sleep with her last night and I refused. I've been sleeping in my home office for about two weeks. We haven't had sex in more than a month. The way she kissed me on the cheek before she left for work this morning was different. Then when she arrived at work (or so she says) she texted me and told me to have a nice day with a bunch of kissy emoji's.
> 
> She knows that I know everything and she does not know what to do with herself. This makes it easier for me. Once she is served, that's it. I don't need to say a thing. Of course, I still have this need at times to just let it all out. It's been brutal keeping it to myself. She just does not realize how sad and lonely I am. Sure we've been in the same house, but I'm alone. I keep telling myself to just accept it and move on, but it's so ****ing hard to do. I still find myself breaking down when I'm alone, or even just around my kids. My daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. I still say to myself that I can handle this, I can get through this. But with kids, my emotions are at a whole different level. It's just so damn hard to keep it together when I'm around them.
> 
> I'm going to talk with my lawyer about using a VAR.


I remember the look of terror on my husband's face when I asked him what the **** was that website on our computer. It was a hook up site for men looking for men. He was stumbling over his words and shaking. 

And no, I bet she has NO idea how you're feeling and just how much she has damaged you. I know my husband has no idea. We are separated now, I live in a separate apartment in our house so I see him way more than I'd like. He acts like everything is totally normal. The other day he came home while I was in the kitchen with my daughter and he smiles and gives me a huge "Hallo!" just like he always did as if nothing has changed. I've said to him several times "I don't think you have any idea of what you've done to me" and he just stands there with nothing to say.

And yes, it is very hard to just accept it and move on. Having your spouse cheat with a same sex partner is completely different than regular cheating. At least it is for me. I question our entire relationship. Was it all just fake? Was he pretending the entire time? It haunts me sometimes. 

I hope things go okay once she gets served. I sincerely hope she doesn't have the nerve to ask why!!!! Good luck!!!


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## cp3o

JP - you are a decent human being. You have reacted to an unimaginable horror story with style, steadfastness and sympathy. Your kids will have a rare degree of post-disclosure care and support.

I suspect many here would join me in asking that, once your immediate situation is resolved, you continue to post as your experiences and your behaviour mean that you will be able to offer a level of insight to some future posters that most of us cannot match. 

In the meantime _Courage mon brave!_


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## niceguy47460

I know how you feel and if you don't let out soon it will eat away at you . what did the voicemail say from mia's husband . stay strong till she is served and then let it out my friend and you will feel a whole lot better .


----------



## Marc878

TDSC60 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of someone being prosecuted for recording a person's voice when they were not aware of it? I haven't.
> 
> All he is really after at this point is to protect himself against a bogus domestic violence charge.
> 
> It really is very simple. He keeps a VAR on him while she is around him after she is served. If she tries to charge domestic violence, it will come down to he said/she said when the police arrive. If they ask him what was said he can suddenly remember the VAR he had in his pocket for a business meeting. If they say play it, he is home free. If they say it is illegal, he just tells them he did not know and he will erase it.
> 
> If it is a one party state, he is well within his legal rights.


I agree. 

There are laws against adultery too. Do you ever see anyone prosecuted for it?


----------



## sokillme

JayPau said:


> An interesting thing happened last night. I missed a call from Mia's husband a little after 7:30pm. I know my wife saw the missed call and voicemail notification on my phone. The expression on her face changed dramatically. She looked terrified. Has not said much, but did try to get me to go to sleep with her last night and I refused. I've been sleeping in my home office for about two weeks. We haven't had sex in more than a month. The way she kissed me on the cheek before she left for work this morning was different. Then when she arrived at work (or so she says) she texted me and told me to have a nice day with a bunch of kissy emoji's.
> 
> She knows that I know everything and she does not know what to do with herself. This makes it easier for me. Once she is served, that's it. I don't need to say a thing. Of course, I still have this need at times to just let it all out. It's been brutal keeping it to myself. She just does not realize how sad and lonely I am. Sure we've been in the same house, but I'm alone. I keep telling myself to just accept it and move on, but it's so ****ing hard to do. I still find myself breaking down when I'm alone, or even just around my kids. My daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. I still say to myself that I can handle this, I can get through this. But with kids, my emotions are at a whole different level. It's just so damn hard to keep it together when I'm around them.
> 
> I'm going to talk with my lawyer about using a VAR.


You can handle this! Your wife has had an affair for a long time. You are right, there is better out there then that. Move on with your life to someone who respects you enough not to treat you that way. You will have a better life in the long run.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

JayPau said:


> An interesting thing happened last night. I missed a call from Mia's husband a little after 7:30pm. I know my wife saw the missed call and voicemail notification on my phone. The expression on her face changed dramatically. She looked terrified. Has not said much, but did try to get me to go to sleep with her last night and I refused. I've been sleeping in my home office for about two weeks. We haven't had sex in more than a month. The way she kissed me on the cheek before she left for work this morning was different. Then when she arrived at work (or so she says) she texted me and told me to have a nice day with a bunch of kissy emoji's.
> 
> She knows that I know everything and she does not know what to do with herself. This makes it easier for me. Once she is served, that's it. I don't need to say a thing. Of course, I still have this need at times to just let it all out. It's been brutal keeping it to myself. *She just does not realize how sad and lonely I am. Sure we've been in the same house, but I'm alone. *I keep telling myself to just accept it and move on, but it's so ****ing hard to do. I still find myself breaking down when I'm alone, or even just around my kids. My daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. I still say to myself that I can handle this, I can get through this. But with kids, my emotions are at a whole different level. It's just so damn hard to keep it together when I'm around them.
> 
> I'm going to talk with my lawyer about using a VAR.


She could care less how sad and lonely you are. She has proven that. You are irrelevant to her as compared to her secret life. She is simply in damage control mode. She knows you know something but she does not know what you know or what your reaction will be to the full spectrum of what what you might know.....

She is fishing....

Just ignore her like she has ignored you since last September. Let her sweat.


----------



## GusPolinski

To be clear, my recommendation re: VAR was for the inevitable confrontation. I’d also HIGHLY recommend that OP keep it on him from that point forward.

If there are two-party consent issues in his state, he can just hold it up, show it to her, and inform her that a) the conversation is being recorded and b) engaging him in further conversation will be taken as consent to being recorded.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Hawaii - one party consent state. Record away. You don't need a lawyer to ok that. Fly it by them anyway if it makes you fell better and you don't mind paying for that advice. Just show them US code and Hawaii states code. Don't assume they are on top of most recent statutes. 

I say never share with her you are recording. Just stick to what you are doing in terms of engagement level with her but protect yourself with constant recordings should she try funny stuff. Turn on device now and keep on as she is about to be served and the poop is about to hit the fan. 

You might think you know her but you really don't know what she is capable of to protect her cheating alter ego I am sorry to say. Her level of deception is pretty high coupled with stone cold hearted self control in not showing her true self. You know her better than anyone else and she has already surprised you with her steely resolve in gas lighting you and not breaking down yet. Assume the worse, she has yet to show her true colors in person. 

Stay strong and again, sorry you are here.


----------



## TDSC60

JP,

You are now on the roller coaster. Your emotions are up, down, all over the spectrum. One moment you are sad, the next you are angry. On moment you feel something akin to tenderness for the woman you married, the next moment you feel nothing but disgust toward her. This is normal and will eventually pass as you move on to acceptance of the fact that she betrayed your trust and your love and it is not your fault. She has lied to you, deceived you, and betrayed you without your knowledge. The trust you had in her to put the family first is gone forever and will never return.

Love is a hard emotion to kill. Even though you cannot accept what she has done and remain married, you probably still love her on some level. You may always love her as the mother of your children, but that does not mean you have to kick your morals and character out the window. 

What you are feeling now is nostalgia, remembering when you were in love with this woman, and trusted her completely. When she was your partner with whom you would raise your kids to responsible adults. Then grow old together. This dream is now in the past. She killed it along with your marriage. It is hard to accept and even harder to deal with.

Hang in there. I promise it gets better. Go see your doctor and tell them what is coming. They may be able to provide medication if needed for anxiety, stress, depression or just something to help you sleep.


----------



## Luminous

TDSC60 said:


> JP,
> 
> Hang in there. I promise it gets better. Go see your doctor and tell them what is coming. They may be able to provide medication if needed for anxiety, stress, depression or just something to help you sleep.


If possible, make getting medicated the last resort. 

Exercise, diet, sleep. This is the base to work from, and which generally the body responds best to.


----------



## sa58

JayPau said:


> An interesting thing happened last night. I missed a call from Mia's husband a little after 7:30pm. I know my wife saw the missed call and voicemail notification on my phone. The expression on her face changed dramatically. She looked terrified. Has not said much, but did try to get me to go to sleep with her last night and I refused. I've been sleeping in my home office for about two weeks. We haven't had sex in more than a month. The way she kissed me on the cheek before she left for work this morning was different. Then when she arrived at work (or so she says) she texted me and told me to have a nice day with a bunch of kissy emoji's.
> 
> She knows that I know everything and she does not know what to do with herself. This makes it easier for me. Once she is served, that's it. I don't need to say a thing. Of course, I still have this need at times to just let it all out. It's been brutal keeping it to myself. She just does not realize how sad and lonely I am. Sure we've been in the same house, but I'm alone. I keep telling myself to just accept it and move on, but it's so ****ing hard to do. I still find myself breaking down when I'm alone, or even just around my kids. My daughter knows what's coming, but my son doesn't. I still say to myself that I can handle this, I can get through this. But with kids, my emotions are at a whole different level. It's just so damn hard to keep it together when I'm around them.
> 
> I'm going to talk with my lawyer about using a VAR.


Reality has just slapped her in her face. She now realizes that everything is 
going to change. No more comfortable home life and no more Mia secret life.
Now she wants to try and act like she cares and loves you. Trying to manipulate 
you that is all she is doing. Now she texts you with a bunch of kissy emojis !!
Who has she been texting and trying to hide it for months ? When she is served
she will blame you and tell you she is sorry. The only thing she is really sorry
for is that she got caught !!

You can handle this but it will take time, this is the person that you thought 
you could trust. She lied and betrayed you, her choice now she will have to deal
with the results. My son broke down many times with me after he confronted 
his wife. If she saw the call she may try and talk to you this weekend and 
attempt at denial of everything. Not really worth your time to listen to her. You have 
asked her several times about everything. Her reply was it is in your imagination. 
Now she wants to talk because she got caught that is all!!

Reality is that she does not want or cannot go through life alone. Paying her own
bills without your support. Alone the way you feel now and have for a while, except 
for your kids. I know it is hard but I would suggest getting your kids and going away
with them for the weekend. Let her stay home alone, since she has been absent from 
your life and theirs for many months. If she asks about a divorce tell her YES !!

Hard to keep it together around her knowing what she has done but do not let it 
out now. She may try and use anything you say or do against you in the divorce.
After everything is done and she is on her own, then maybe if you feel like it go and 
tell her. Her relationship with Mia is ending and now she wants to come back to you.
Don't let her !!

You know you deserve better, you will, it just takes time.
She will be lonely and miserable, her choice not yours.

Take care of yourself and kids


----------



## SunCMars

@JayPau....

Some more levity.

You need some. 

Not the eerie levitation you feel now. 
That out of body feeling.

Insert the words below into the Jackson Jingle..

"I gotta feel like.... she is cheatin' on me!

-and- 

"Now, she feels like.... someone's watchin' her".

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvAYIJSSZY


----------



## Taxman

Given that it is Friday, and to my mind the perfect day to serve someone with divorce papers. (Gives them the weekend from hell, where regular life is suspended for the weekend. Shakes them up really well.) I think Jay will have some interesting conversations. She is not just fending off a massive life change arising from an affair. This is significantly more earth shattering. As much as we would like to think that we have progressed in the last decade or so, from a practical standpoint, there has not been much progress at all. People will still buzz and gossip about affairs, a same-sex affair leading to divorce is going to devastate her. She is just getting the ramifications sorted out in her head now that she is certain that her secret is about to become public knowledge.

Jay should prepare himself for her going completely to pieces. From her following him around, to her calling to tell him she is at work, the crash will likely be fairly hard. Jay should prepare for being followed. Begged to keep this out of the public realm. Begged to keep it from parents and friends. She is likely to promise the world and then some. This should be a very interesting weekend. I encourage Jay to also use the VAR to document promises she will make. If she agrees to the divorce, then she will promise the earth sun and sky to keep some of her reputation. RECORD IT ALL AND USE IT. (It will reduce his divorce costs both financially and emotionally)


----------



## Cynthia

Here's an article on recording. It includes an example of someone being fined for secretly recording.
https://www.charlesullman.com/wiretapping-cheating-spouse-carries-risks/

There is no reason to VAR her car. And yes, that can lead to prosecution and/or fines. It's more serious than people here realize.


----------



## personofinterest

Luminous said:


> If possible, make getting medicated the last resort.
> 
> Exercise, diet, sleep. This is the base to work from, and which generally the body responds best to.


EXACTLY

There is a particular relationship website that basically recommends right off the bat for EVERY BS to get medication. That is irresponsible, full stop.


----------



## Decorum

Is there anyone who can come over at times, a friend, Mia's husband, etc, probably a non relative would be best, at key times to "hang" as a witness. Maybe the day she is served, or when move out time comes, etc.
They don't have to necessarily be there the whole time, just the initial Hello meeting then when things seem under control they can leave. Just a thought.


----------



## StillSearching

She's got to feel like Rockwell. Awesome. 
Wax that WW!


----------



## Kamstel

I believe she is being served today??? If so, I just want to wish you luck and strength.

Hang in there, be strong, and remember that you goal is to escape from this Hell that your wife has put you into, and to protect your kids


----------



## sa58

I can just imagine the conversation her and Mia had
today. Mia husband confronted her and now calls JP
house. Both of them are probably 100 % confused right
now. They don't know who knows what.Texting up a storm to.

If she gets served today JP remember ^^^ this.
She doesn't know how much you know. Works better
for you she may even confess to more.

Not as smart or sneaky as they thought they were.

Good for them not knowing what comes next !!

She is going to be shocked if she gets served today.
Mia husband just called how did he file so quick ?
Wonder if she will realize how long he has known then ?

If she isn't served she will want to talk and probably will
beg, and cry for forgiveness.


----------



## re16

This seems like its been way too calm and quiet with her essentially knowing she has been busted. Something tells me there is something major brewing behind the scenes. She is going to put some sort of plan into action. Be ready.


----------



## oldshirt

re16 said:


> This seems like its been way too calm and quiet with her essentially knowing she has been busted. Something tells me there is something major brewing behind the scenes. She is going to put some sort of plan into action. Be ready.


She may be thinking he may be a little miffed, but some women really do think they should get a free pass if it's another chick and she may not be all that concerned at the moment. 

She may pooh pooh this for awhile and think it will blow over until the judge starts divvying up the furniture and the bank accounts.


----------



## sa58

re16 said:


> This seems like its been way too calm and quiet with her essentially knowing she has been busted. Something tells me there is something major brewing behind the scenes. She is going to put some sort of plan into action. Be ready.


She probably thinks he just found out, when Mia husband called.
Maybe just dazed and confused about what to do. I do agree she 
is probably trying to come up with a plan, to talk her way out of this.

Maybe she will tell JP that Mia husband is lying, " Honestly honey
he is lying just ask Mia "

His response " Get out "


----------



## Beach123

Move money! 

If you don’t the money will be gone before you move your portion!


----------



## Taxman

No, I think she is in shock. Everything that he described in that short blurb tells me that she thought that this would never be caught. That, of course always floors me. They forget all of the other information that has been telegraphed over the last few months. The guarding of the phone, the sketchy behavior, the disappearances, the half assed excuses. All of that seems to get lost in the ether, and they have the nerve to be surprised when it all comes crashing down. I have had one or two in my office wondering what caused their spouse to monitor their behavior to this extent. They all think that they were covering their tracks. SMH. SMH. SMH.

Jay's wife thinks that she was being really clever. They all do. It is a constant of the universe. When she gets the divorce filing, I predict a bowel emptying episode, hopefully not in the reception area at work (although I had one particular WW who had this exact reaction. The divorce filing had a handwritten sheet attached to the top, and it read: You have been caught. You are the last to know. I have informed everyone that needs to be informed. Your friend's wife has been informed of this. She is dealing with him at present. I will deal with him later, she is coming to deal with you. I suggest body armor.)


----------



## Beach123

Move the money now!!! Before the weekend... and banks are closed!

Move any assets into your name only! Move at least half of what’s there. 

I can’t stress this enough!


----------



## GusPolinski

It’s likely that OP’s WW thinks he’s still in the dark. After all, the AP thought it was her BH that took the pics, and unless he told her differently, neither of the waywards has any reason — aside from the way that he’s been acting, which is likely starkly different than before getting hard evidence — to believe that OP had anything to do with it or even knows anything.

Unless, of course, she was served today.


----------



## Taxman

Given that he has not been back today, I would wager that service has been effected, and shall we say, the rug has been pulled out from under Mrs JayPau. Confrontation day usually entails some radio silence, especially given this situation.


----------



## skerzoid

She is staring into the abyss. Loss of husband, mistress, reputation, finances, everything that matters to her. I would expect a breakdown of massive proportions. If she was served today, it will be a day or two before we hear much as the **** is seriously hitting the fan. Stay strong buddy. What ever you do, do it from a position of strength. You hold all the cards.


----------



## Marc878

She'll demand a second chance. After all she's worth it? All she did was have a little sex on the side at your expense.

All entitled cheaters think you owe them. 

Nope, you sure don't.


----------



## Beach123

She can demand and beg all she wants - but this will be your chance to call the shots.

I would have her leave the house immediately. Give her 30 minutes to pack her things - then leave.

Oh she gets emotional and throws a fit? Well now... she should have considered those consequences when she was cheating.

I hope you move money - if you didn’t she will swipe every penny available to her as soon as she is served.

Make sure your home is peaceful (that’s why she needs to go!)


----------



## sokillme

Just follow through with the divorce as emotionless as possible. Be clinical about it and move forward with your life. In the end you will be better off. Why waste any more time or emotional investment with this treacherous person. Seriously it just keeps you stuck in their bile. Get yourself out and far away so you don't waste any more of your life. 

I wouldn't be emotional about it but I wouldn't hide it from anyone either. Let your kids know so they can learn from this and also so they don't blame you. Let your wife deal with her consequences. 

You will get over her, you will heal, you will love again. Just like cancer though the sooner you cut it out and deal with the sickness the sooner you will recover.


----------



## SunCMars

I blame society for @JayPau's situation.

A society where anything goes as long as it feels good.

It is one thing to admit that there are different lifestyles, it is another thing to flat-out encourage it.

Especially to young and still forming minds.

I think everyone gets my drift.

Hollywood is flat-out evil.

They are driving us to ruin, at a pedal-to-the-metal pace!

Yes.





[THM]-


----------



## Jaded1

SunCMars said:


> I blame society for @JayPau's situation.
> 
> A society where anything goes as long as it feels good.
> 
> It is one thing to admit that there are different lifestyles, it is another thing to flat-out encourage it.
> 
> Especially to young and still forming minds.
> 
> I think everyone gets my drift.
> 
> Hollywood is flat-out evil.
> 
> They are driving us to ruin, at a pedal-to-the-metal pace!
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]-



:surprise:


----------



## sokillme

sa58 said:


> She probably thinks he just found out, when Mia husband called.
> Maybe just dazed and confused about what to do. I do agree she
> is probably trying to come up with a plan, to talk her way out of this.
> 
> Maybe she will tell JP that Mia husband is lying, " Honestly honey
> he is lying just ask Mia "
> 
> His response " Get out "


She could be just as upset that Mia's husband found out and maybe their affair is now over, or at least it will be a lot harder to continue. Everyone always assumes the tears or for the loss of the marriage, but I am not sure why when they have shown that priority has been the affair and the other partner for a long time.


----------



## sokillme

SunCMars said:


> I blame society for @JayPau's situation.
> 
> A society where anything goes as long as it feels good.
> 
> It is one thing to admit that there are different lifestyles, it is another thing to flat-out encourage it.
> 
> Especially to young and still forming minds.
> 
> I think everyone gets my drift.
> 
> Hollywood is flat-out evil.
> 
> They are driving us to ruin, at a pedal-to-the-metal pace!
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]-


I don't know, 60% of people on earth are influenced by the same media, not everyone cheats. Personally if the media didn't exist I think these people would still cheat, and I rather I know and not be married to someone like that. In my mind it always comes down to character.


----------



## sokillme

Personally I blame the quick to forgive and it's not a big deal culture that exist in our society more. Not so much on this site but on others there are many people who believe in marriage at all cost. There are whole religions who believe that, when the scriptures their faith is based on don't. 

It's wrong and it cheapens marriage and fidelity in general. These two women because of their abuse of their husbands don't deserve to be married to anyone. Just like a person convicted of drunk driving doesn't deserve to get behind a wheel. It would be better for all of us we we start acknowledging that and at least say it out loud.


----------



## Zodiac

sokillme said:


> Personally I blame the quick to forgive and it's not a big deal culture that exist in our society more. Not so much on this site but on others there are many people who believe in marriage at all cost. There are whole religions who believe that, when the scriptures their faith is based on don't.
> 
> It's wrong and it cheapens marriage and fidelity in general. These two women because of their abuse of their husbands don't deserve to be married to anyone. Just like a person convicted of drunk driving doesn't deserve to get behind a wheel. It would be better for all of us we we start acknowledging that and at least say it out loud.


I agree, and if the culture/media is reinforcing anything it's about how men have to put women on a pedestal and how women believe they belong on a pedestal. When really we all belong on the path of life next to each other. Where we share our hopes, dreams and fears on an equal level. I see all the signs now, in my old relationship. There are just certain things you don't say to people and their are things you do not tolerate. She wouldn't get married because gay people couldn't in our 20's i looked at her as my wife. I dealt with so much garbage because internally i had bonded with this person, so i would forgive and try and teach her. I now realize i raised a teenager as she left both times her life got better, first her GED then Management at a grocery store.


----------



## oldshirt

sokillme said:


> I don't know, 60% of people on earth are influenced by the same media, not everyone cheats. Personally if the media didn't exist I think these people would still cheat, and I rather I know and not be married to someone like that. In my mind it always comes down to character.


There earliest form of media was cave drawings. And there are cave drawings of sex and orgies and all sorts of pervertedness so one must assume there was cheating then too.


----------



## sokillme

Zodiac said:


> She wouldn't get married because gay people couldn't in our 20's i looked at her as my wife.


Which is one of the reasons we should all be happy the most of the societal stigma has gone away. Today there is no excuse for bearding. 

Over all I don't think this is a male or female problem, or even a media problem. I think it's a cultural one. We live in a society where "Me" is supposed to be the most important thing. And where how you feel determines how successful your life is, when it should be who you character and actions says you are.


----------



## Edmund

I could be wrong, but I think that JP is not that much in to his wife any more, and this gives him an easy excuse to exit. He's moving at jet speed to serve her D papers before he even confronts her (or maybe he isn't going to confront her). His wife has discovered she has bisexual tendancy and it is up to JP to determine whether that is something he can tolerate. I guess I am assuming that the extramarital affair is just based on sex play and is not based on love. Maybe JP thinks he can get someone better. It is his life, his decision.


----------



## sokillme

Edmund said:


> I could be wrong, but I think that JP is not that much in to his wife any more, and this gives him an easy excuse to exit. He's moving at jet speed to serve her D papers before he even confronts her (or maybe he isn't going to confront her). His wife has discovered she has bisexual tendancy and it is up to JP to determine whether that is something he can tolerate. I guess I am assuming that the extramarital affair is just based on sex play and is not based on love. Maybe JP thinks he can get someone better. It is his life, his decision.


I don't know I jetted on the girl I proposed to about 2 months after I proposed, and about a month after I found out she was cheating. I can guarantee you I was very into her at that point. I just knew what I could and would tolerate. 

If staying with someone who cheats on you goes against your core principles, then being into or not into has nothing to do with it. I have a promise to myself I would do the same if my wife ever did this, whatever the gender of the other person was. I probably would never talk to her again unless besides dispassionately separating everything. I am just not putting up with that.


----------



## oldshirt

edit


----------



## faithfulman

oldshirt said:


> The same thoughts have been going through my mind as well.
> 
> I dunno, I can see both sides.
> 
> Some times people are so disgusted and so angered and disillusioned by infidelity that they do loose all love and tolerance and acceptance of their partner in a moment and they just want out in an instant even though they may have been content before. that is the risk that WS's take when they cheat.
> 
> But yeah, it kinda makes you wonder if he has been waiting for the right moment to bail and sees this as his opportunity to pull the ejection handle.
> 
> Even though the chorus here has been singing to see lawyers and draw up paperwork and shuffle funds and make plans on the downlow (and I probably advised such myself) it does seem kinda odd that this has been going on for weeks and he hasn't even casually mentioned anything to her or asked her anything about it. That is definitely not the norm. (not that the norm is always the right thing to do)
> 
> Cheating is definitely a valid reason to leave so I'm not pointing fingers or saying it is wrong. But yeah, I also can't help but wonder if he was just waiting for a Mother-Approved excuse and when this dropped in his lap, he went for it.


I think this type of speculation is a stretch. 

Any type of normal relationship issues notwithstanding, it appears JayPau's wife has been distancing herself from their union for quite a while, effectively killing their relationship. 

Now add in infidelity with this other woman and a marriage that was effectively on life support is destroyed.

He may have no longer had the emotional investment that many betrayed spouses do, but that is a far cry from "looking for an excuse".


----------



## personofinterest

The idea that divorcing a cheater means you weren't that into them is RIDICULOUS to me.

People divorce a cheater because they CHEATED.

Good grief.


----------



## oldshirt

edit


----------



## Graywolf2

JayPau said:


> We enjoyed being together and doing lots of activities with our kids and relatives on both sides of our families.


You expose an affair to end it and work on the marriage. Since you’re 100% going to divorce do not expose more than you already have.

She cares about her reputation. If you don’t expose to your families or others you can use that as leverage to get good divorce terms. You don’t overtly say “Give me X or I will expose” because that’s blackmail.

You just don’t want to expose. She will want to keep you happy. If you don’t get something you might become unhappy.
After the divorce is final you can tell anyone you want.


----------



## sa58

Hope you are doing well as can be expected 
this weekend JP. enjoying time with your kids.
They see and know who is there for them.


----------



## Edmund

personofinterest said:


> The idea that divorcing a cheater means you weren't that into them is RIDICULOUS to me.
> 
> People divorce a cheater because they CHEATED.
> 
> Good grief.


You obviously did not understand what I meant, or maybe didn't want or try to understand what I meant.
It's OK, I don't care.


----------



## sa58

Just my viewpoint but I don't think
she is really as smart as she thinks.

She thought she was hiding things
well but JP noticed quickly. JP just needed
eyes (PI) to find out exactly what she was 
doing. Texting a lot, change in her looks.
He even knows she tries to hide things.


Now that she has been caught and exposed 
she is doing what a lot of cheaters do. Kissy
kissy sweet texts, kissing him,wanting to have 
sex, acting like she loves him again. Next will be
more lies, excuse and things. Trying to save her 
own skin and good life that she has not cared about
for many months.

JP If the office that you are currently sleeping in
does not have a keyed lock, get one ASAP
Keep her at arms length and out of your room
at night. Spend as much time away from her 
go out with the kids, see family etc. 

Unless you need to avoid her .
She will try and get you back
Because she only cares about herself.
Her world has began to crumble now


----------



## jlg07

@JayPau, if you had her served, please be aware in the coming weeks of her trying to sex you back into a relationship.
I am SO SORRY that you are in this situation but you have your plan -- stick to it. Expose her BS and please be careful around her.


----------



## JustWavingNotDrowning

JayPau, I just wanted to say how glad I am to see you posting again and to thank you for the update. Your story touched a nerve so you have been on my mind a lot the last couple of weeks. You show remarkable fortitude and self control. In the not so distant future your kids will really appreciate your efforts to ensure the impact of your wife's actions on them is minimised. 

Your wife has shown zero consideration for you and your children so leaving her to sort herself out while you move on is a sound goal. You are right you don't need her drama. Please do look after yourself physically and don't be hard on yourself. You ARE dealing with something quite beyond what most of us have encountered. Having written that, you already know that the people who will know how it feels are already on these boards.

Sending you strength and every best wishes.


----------



## TDSC60

JP, have divorce papers been served?


----------



## sa58

Jp

If she has been served she is probably shocked and confused
about how everything happened so fast. Mia husband confronted 
her. Your wife thought she might be in safe, saw the missed call
then tried to play nice and sweet. Now served with divorce papers.

Keep her in the dark as much as possible. She doesn't know how much
you know, or who really knows. Shocked and confused and not knowing
what comes next. You are in charge of the situation now not her !!

Hope you are taking care of yourself sir.
Thought and prayers still with you and your kids.


----------



## Cynthia

Cheaters do not give their betrayed spouses the truth about what is going on, but leave them in the dark, so why should the betrayed show all their cards to someone who is only going to use it against them?


----------



## Beach123

My fear is that JP is being manipulated after his wife was served.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I'm sure if it finally went down that he has been way too busy with craziness to come here and update us...


----------



## StillSearching

Beach123 said:


> My fear is that JP is being manipulated after his wife was served.


I don't think so.
I have faith, he's too focused.
Much more than I was...


----------



## Taxman

Lots of conjecture here. Obviously, Jay is taking a break. The filing and confrontation likely blew up the world as they both knew it. If it went the way I think, then they are talking, and not letting the rest of the world into those conversations. If Jay were back almost immediately, it would mean they have separated, and this thing is going the way of D. This silence speaks volumes. I believe they will be gone for a while yet. And I will not speculate as to where this has gone.


----------



## personofinterest

jlg07 said:


> @JayPau, if you had her served, please be aware in the coming weeks of her trying to sex you back into a relationship.
> I am SO SORRY that you are in this situation but you have your plan -- stick to it. Expose her BS and please be careful around her.


THIS

Do NOT have sex with her. It's manipulation.


----------



## sa58

JP

Regardless of what has or is happening,
Take care of yourself.


----------



## StillSearching

Taxman said:


> Lots of conjecture here. Obviously, Jay is taking a break. *The filing and confrontation likely blew up the world as they both knew it. If it went the way I think*, then they are talking, and not letting the rest of the world into those conversations. If Jay were back almost immediately, it would mean they have separated, and this thing is going the way of D. This silence speaks volumes. I believe they will be gone for a while yet. And *I will not speculate as to where this has gone*.


The filing and confrontation likely blew up the world as they both knew it. If it went the way I think..
I will not speculate as to where this has gone.

LOL my head just exploded...


----------



## sa58

Maybe she signed the divorce papers
Maybe he has helped her find a new place to move 
Hiring someone to help her move.
Paying her first months rent, security deposit
Changing the locks on his house

That could take time, or maybe he is just
trying to clean up her mess that she has 
created. 

Probably the mess she has created thou.

As long as he is doing well , considering the crap
she has put him through. Then the pain of finding
out what was going on.


----------



## Taxman

StillSearching said:


> The filing and confrontation likely blew up the world as they both knew it. If it went the way I think..
> I will not speculate as to where this has gone.
> 
> LOL my head just exploded...


OK so I speculated when I shouldn't have!:grin2:


----------



## TDSC60

Probably JP's wife has been struggling with bi-sexual tendencies her whole life. This may be the first time she has allowed them to surface since marriage, or it may not have been the first time. She may feel that she cannot be in a marriage where she has to hide a large part of who she is and will not fight the divorce.

Regardless, she has lied and hid the whole affair from JP.

Only he can decide how he wants to proceed. I hope he comes back.


----------



## Jus260

Beach123 said:


> Or he just took her back...when she lied.


Some people who come to this board immediately become addicted to posting here. I've noticed that when they dont, the board has a tendency to freak out especially when someone posts an interesting story. 

Every board I have every visited, regardless of topic always has people who can't step away from the board to enjoy the rest of the world. That does include me. I have spent way too much of my life being a ****ing freak show on message boards.

The OP will update his story when he gets ready. Some people won't need to be here constantly. The speculation on this board gets out of hand for no reason.


----------



## sa58

JayPau said:


> A lot has happened in the last two weeks. I'm finally starting to sleep better and I'm starting to eat a bit more. I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I have lost a bit of weight throughout this prolonged nightmare. Okay, where to begin. I have retained a lawyer, and I filed for divorce more than a week ago. My wife has not been served yet. For some reason it takes time here. I do expect it to happen in the next two days, tho. She will be served at her office.
> 
> I have not confronted her, not because she has not been served, but I do not see how it will help me in the long or short term. I did have a long lunch with Mia's husband two days ago. I shared EVERYTHING I had on our wives. He was not shocked there was an affair, only that our wives have been together. I told him he could do whatever he wants with the pics and videos I gave him. It turns out he confronted his wife yesterday and all she did was lie more and piss him off. She said he was a low life for watching her and taking the pics/videos. I'm certain my wife is well aware of all of this, but she's incredibly good at hiding things. Mia still does not know that I hired the PI and simply passed all of the info to her hubby.
> 
> Once my wife is served, I'm sure we'll have an unpleasant conversation. At that point I will let her know what I know and why I'm divorcing her without being confrontational. I'm not going to allow myself to get caught again in arguments where she lies, lies, lies. I'm finished with it. I want her to leave our house and have our kids stay with me. If things turn ugly, I can have my kids stay at my parents house. They have been incredible supportive of me the last two weeks.
> 
> I have to say the best advice I got from this forum was the following: keep your mouth shut and your eyes open, hire a PI, hire a lawyer. All of these things helped me immensely. Months ago I was angry, then I became horribly sad and lonely. Right now I'm trying to accept what's happening and where things might be heading. I'm hoping for an uncontested divorce, but I'm not counting on it happening. I'm still preparing for the worst. I'll fight if I have to.


This says everything that he is going through right now. 
He was waiting for his wife to be served and confronting her.
He knows she lies, lies, and lies. He has a support network 
there. His parents support him which means they probably 
know. He just wants her gone and will fight if needed. This 
is his life and his kids. If he wants to post then ok if not
then ok. 

This is why I say he is cleaning up the mess she made!!
My only concern is that he and his kids are doing well.
No concern for his wife, she made her choice !!
Now she must deal with the results !!
She has no excuses he asked her many, many 
times about things. She said it was in his mind.
He knows she lies !!

Let him deal with his life, and what she has done
to him and his family. 


Hope and pray you are doing well JP, my prayers
are with you.


----------



## niceguy47460

Jp must be going through alot right now .


----------



## notmyjamie

Edmund said:


> I could be wrong, but I think that JP is not that much in to his wife any more, and this gives him an easy excuse to exit. He's moving at jet speed to serve her D papers before he even confronts her (or maybe he isn't going to confront her). His wife has discovered she has bisexual tendancy and it is up to JP to determine whether that is something he can tolerate. I guess I am assuming that the extramarital affair is just based on sex play and is not based on love. Maybe JP thinks he can get someone better. It is his life, his decision.



Wow...you have no clue what it’s like to find out your spouse is having a same sex affair on you. It brings the entire relationship into question in a way that regular cheating just doesn’t. You’re dealing with the fact that your spouse has hidden a fundamental part of themselves from you. No marriage vows should ever be taken with such a secret between the couple. I can imagine that OP is wondering if she ever loved him, ever enjoyed sex with him, and mostly how he could have missed this about her for all these years. Thinking that every intimate moment with your spouse was a lie is devastating. It’s soul crushing. He’s not using as an excuse to bolt from the marriage. I’d bet if she says she’s “only bi “ or “just curious” he is wondering if his marriage can survive that. He’s wondering what affect this will have on his kids, his future relationships, his own mental health. 

And he has every right to feel ALL of that!!!!!


----------



## MattMatt

*Moderator note:-*

Please! No more threadjacking!


----------



## TDSC60

JP - how are you doing?


----------



## SunCMars

TDSC60 said:


> JP - how are you doing?


Hey!

Read the prior post.
..................................................................................................

Some old posts never die, they fade away, they rot away and tilt over...and over...and over.

Some are beaten to death by diehards.

Diehard, the battery the EverReady Bunny fears the most.

The rabbit loses in the end to daddies selling our TAM Toddlers that endless supply of Triple A bald faced.... battery of lies, innuendoes, and rumors.


----------



## just got it 55

JayPau JayPau is offline
Member
Send Message User Lists 
Last Activity: 03-28-2019 05:12 PM


This thread should be euthanized

just sayin

55


----------



## Graywolf2

Be careful JayPau.

You have the facts but she will say and promise what you want to hear to save her reputation and way of life. Plus she will sex you up. That's a hard combination for any man to resist.


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## OnTheFly

Jay Pau had his **** together.

He followed sound advice and took appropriate action.

I do not fall into the camp that thinks he buckled.

When he returns, and he will, to update us, it will be good news.

.........or I'll eat my hat!



(BTW, my hat is a ribeye steak, salted and peppered and cooked to perfection.)


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## niceguy47460

He is probably dealing with alot from her trying to save her marriage .


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## Chaparral

What’s the old saying about the battle plan after the battle starts?


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## OnTheFly

Chaparral said:


> What’s the old saying about the battle plan after the battle starts?


That everything goes perfectly in every single way?


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## FloridaITguy

No battle plan survives the first engagement 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jus260

Chaparral said:


> What’s the old saying about the battle plan after the battle starts?


Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Mike Tyson


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## ABHale

JayPau, how have things been for you and your kids.


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## lancaster

rustytheboyrobot said:


> I'll give you some different advice.
> 
> Stop caring about what else she is doing. I mean she's an old end of middle aged woman. Is she really worth all this effort?
> 
> Why obsess about all this stuff?
> 
> Start checking out of this married life and starting checking into the life of a single man yourself. Stop giving your wife attention just because she is there. Is she earning your attention? What is she doing to earn your attention?
> 
> Get a gym membership stat. Use your family money to do it. Get one with personal trainers and have them teach you proper form for serious lifts. The squat, the deadlift, and the bench press. If you've chunked up get on a rowing machine and row until you can't think anymore. Don't tell your wife it's none of her business what you do. Don't come home go to the gym. Don't tell her squat that open communication is now GONE.
> 
> Stay out doing other things. Maybe go window shopping at the local mall. Look around at all the different people. Those are all people you could meet! Find some new clothes that make you look sharp. A man should look good. Get yourself some new cologne. Do not tell your wife **** about it. If she asks tell her to mind her own damn business. You sharing your life is something she has to earn.
> 
> Hey maybe one of these nights go check out the local bar. Meet some new people. Sounds much better to me than obsessing about tracking what my wife is doing. I mean if she wants to go meet a different man it's not like I can stop her. Women are free now they are not your property. Your wife is not your property she is only there by choice. And office affairs are super exciting! Especially if the hubby then dives deep into obsessing about her. I mean my gosh what women hasn't had some school girl fantasy about two men fighting over her? So don't fight. I mean if you want to fight over a girl can you at least pick a girl who isn't an old barren hag?
> 
> And hey maybe divorce her. You don't need proof of squat. We do no fault divorce now. You can divorce her because you think she's being a selfish ***** and that's it. It doesn't matter if you have proof of an affair, or you don't, in court. It makes no difference. The only reason to find out is for some sick twisted need in your head and who cares about that? Trust your gut. And your gut is busy telling you that this middle aged gal thinks she can treat you like crap and you just stand there and take it. So take your damn life back. Go get that gym membership and start lifting. It will only take a month or two before you're standing in front of the mirror with your shirt off, flexing, thinking, "my goodness I"m awesome". Start focusing on the only person you actually have control over. YOU. Stop this obsessing with your wife. You do not get to control her.


What a great post. Thanks for this.


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## Buffer

Brother, how has it been?
Buffer


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## willistrong

Yess, I agree with you


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## breska

Cheating is super bad situation. I'm sorry...


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## Openminded

Zombie


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## OnTheFly

Odd.....why am I getting alerts for the last two posts in this thread. 

Must be techno-glitch?


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## MattMatt

It's because you have alerts for some posts, including this one.


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## MattMatt

@JayPau how is it going?


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