# Date Night



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

We have attended our first night of marriage counseling and in addition to all the other homework, my wife and I are supposed to have a date night. The counselor suggested that we go out and spend the evening together, just the two of us. This includes an overnight in a motel. She wants us to try to reconnect and remember why we fell in love in the first place.

We go out as a family weekly, but we haven’t had but maybe four date nights in twenty years. We have no support close, and kids don’t seem to babysit anymore, so all through the child rearing years we were never able. Now that the kids are old enough to stay home, and we could do something just the two of us, C2 hasn't shown much interest in ditching the kids for a few hours. The nearest thing I have been able to get is for the last few years for us to have dinner on our anniversary, just the two of us, but that was just out for dinner, then right back home. 

So the problem that I have is, I don’t know what to do. We’ll have dinner, because I know C2 will enjoy that, but other than that, I’m stuck. Movies are out because she said there is nothing she wants to see. Anything with physical activity (including walking) is out because she says she can’t do it. We we’re not into the social scene or sports, so nightclubs and sporting events are out. I suggested a comedy club, but she doesn't want to do that because she is offended by the language. The local symphony would be fun, and I think she would have a good time, but they are't in session this weekend. 

She isn't giving me any help in planning the evening and everything I suggest she shoots down. What she wants to do is stay home and play her computer game. But that’s what she does every night, so I would like to try to break out of that routine if possible… not to mention the counselor said to leave all the computers and the like at home. 

A million years ago, when we were younger, we used to do dinner and sometimes a movie, but then we would just spend time together, often doing nothing. What do (older) couples do now for dates?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

You mentioned a hotel room


1) get room....bring some alcohol to drink
2) have sex
3) order food...eat
4) have sex again
5) maybe watch alittle TV.....stretch
6) have sex again
7) sleep

You two will be reconnected again in no time


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

any plays? local theater, college, or even high school?

any music venues? a bar with a band? not for the 'social scene' but for the entertainment. ever try karaoke?

can you rent a row boat somewhere? mini-golf too taxing for her? bowling?

carriage ride through the park?

any go cart places around? amusement parks?


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Try Care.com or AngiesList to find a sitter if your kids need one.

Tell C2 that she has to do what the therapist says. 

Otherwise take the excuses to the Therapist and have them suggest appropriate ways to deal with it.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> any plays? local theater, college, or even high school?


I can check on some of these. Play's aren't that big of a deal around here, but maybe I can find something. Thanks!





ReidWright said:


> any music venues? a bar with a band? not for the 'social scene' but for the entertainment. ever try karaoke?


No music venues near, but I might can find something. Most of the bars in the area are not well know for high class music and entertainment. 

Karaoke? I'm not sure that's a good idea. I want her to still like me after this is over! 





ReidWright said:


> can you rent a row boat somewhere? mini-golf too taxing for her? bowling?


Row boats? No. 
Mini-golf? Maybe. I'll ask. Good suggestion.
Bowling? No. She won't be up for that. 




ReidWright said:


> carriage ride through the park?


This would be super, but not available in the area.





ReidWright said:


> any go cart places around? amusement parks?


No. And she wouldn't do the karts anyway.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> You mentioned a hotel room
> 
> 
> 1) get room....bring some alcohol to drink
> ...


Yeah... 3 out of 7 (3, 5 & 7) isn't so bad I guess.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Yeah... 3 out of 7 (3, 5 & 7) isn't so bad I guess.


What are you saying you don't want to have sex with your wife? Or she doesn't want to have sex with you?

:scratchhead:


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Have you thought about asking people at work what they do for fun? They will tell you what is happening locally.

Check your local section of the paper. Every Thurs. mine publishes a "Go Guide" with all upcoming local events.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Why do you need her to help you plan? You do know men still plan dates and take women out. Aren't you capable? 

Stop wringing your hands about it. What does it matter what she rather do? The idea is to experience how other things could be more enjoyable. 

It doesn't matter what you do, just do it. Tell her to be ready. Lead! 

Of course it will be awkward at first, but it won't happen unless you start.


Go watch the submarine races, put a cd in the dash, just you two, alone... You get it.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> You mentioned a hotel room
> 
> 
> 1) get room....bring some alcohol to drink
> ...


Sounds like the perfect date night to me! Rofl!


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

CopperTop said:


> A million years ago, when we were younger, we used to do dinner and sometimes a movie, but then we would just spend time together, often doing nothing. What do (older) couples do now for dates?


Don't let her lack of initiative kill your plans and enthusiasm. Sometimes people need a bit of a push to go outside the comfortable and familiar.

The theater idea is a good one. You might want to try just setting something up instead of getting her buy in completely. On valentines day I took my wife to a play and arranged a dinner and the novelty of it was great. She really enjoyed it. 

Last weekend I took my wife to see a band with someone I know who plays in it. Again since we don't do that regularly she found it supper fun. I've taken my wife into the city and just shopped or toured. In my area dinner cruises are possible. I had one date night where we went to the town where we met and toured the university going to a old place where we used to eat. 

The other thing to do is to send the kids somewhere else and have fun at home. I did that once when our kids were away and we ended up building a fort in front of the fireplace and watching a movie. 

Dates can be adventures like classes such as dance, language or any hobby you both find enjoyable. Another thing is to pick Up a game she likes and play it with her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Look for junior high or high school musicals. This time of year is when they're usually performing. They're so much fun, and it's sweet, and you'll have stuff to talk about.

Also look at high school sporting events; I love going to high school basketball games, the people are so enthusiastic!

There might be some amateur theaters in your area; we've been to some and they're really interesting.

Museums. We have an outdoor theater here where we can sit on a hill and watch performances for free. The zoo. 

Do a solitaire competition where you each play solitaire and keep score. Find a bingo establishment. 

Find something to volunteer for and do it together.

A picnic, and bring a book to read together.

Listen to TED Talks and talk about the subjects.

Rent a dvd of a tv series and get some blankets and pillows and popcorn and soda (or something stronger), and lie down on the floor and watch it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

frusdil said:


> Sounds like the perfect date night to me! Rofl!


It is 

The Gf and I do this couple times a year :smthumbup:


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Okay... I have booked the Saturday.

We have two tickets to a local theater where they are performing _Affairs of the Heart_, and I booked a Romance Package at a local resort, complete with dinner, a suite with Champagne and chocolate truffles, a fifty minute spa treatment, and breakfast the next morning. 

I'm also breaking out the antique Lincoln so we can arrive in style. 

Thank you all for the suggestions.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Jeez, CopperTop, your wife sounds like a complete killjoy 

What kinds of things did she enjoy when you first started dating? it might be fun to re-create some of your favorite dates from early in your relationship.

But the computer game thing? I think you need to bring this up with the counselor, if you haven't already. At some point you may need to ask her which is more important to her--her marriage, or her computer games.

ETA: Sorry, I missed the later posts in the thread while I was writing... I think what you have planned sounds really fantastic


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Just keep your hopes in check. This might be awkward as you both are not used to it, and she will be trying to kill the fun to avoid sex.But do not give up


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> Jeez, CopperTop, your wife sounds like a complete killjoy
> 
> What kinds of things did she enjoy when you first started dating? it might be fun to re-create some of your favorite dates from early in your relationship.


We had a non-traditional courtship and early marriage. I was on the road... a lot... something like 200-250 days a year. I would see her for one or two days a month at most. Then it was easy to fill the time. 

A lot of the time we did nothing... dinner, movie, then quiet time. It was very nice.

After I changed jobs to get away from all the travel, we used to do house projects together (landscaping, improvements etc) but that all stopped with the arrival of C3. 





FeministInPink said:


> But the computer game thing? I think you need to bring this up with the counselor, if you haven't already. At some point you may need to ask her which is more important to her--her marriage, or her computer games.


It's not the game as much as it's her. Before she discovered games, she was deep, deep, deep into genealogy, and she acted the same way. She would spend hours each night working on her family tree, then once every few months she would leave the kids with me, drive down to Georgia where her family is from, and spend the weekend researching.

I have pointed out to her already that she spend a LOT of time on the games (about 4 hours a night and 12+ hours a day on Saturday and Sunday) but she doesn't see a problem and thinks I just don't want her to have a life of her own. 

We had that same discussion on genealogy and it went nowhere. I haven't brought it up because it was just our first session and it was mostly a meet and greet type of thing. 





FeministInPink said:


> ETA: Sorry, I missed the later posts in the thread while I was writing... I think what you have planned sounds really fantastic


Thanks! I haven't told her what I have planned yet, but I am already getting some pushback. She is actually getting two spa sessions. The package offers two spa sessions, two rounds of golf or one of each. Since I don't golf, I am giving her both spa sessions.

I told her to be ready to leave just after lunch. But that is interfering with her plans on the game, and she is fretting about C4 staying home alone for five hours until C3 arrives home from work... never mind he is 15. 

We'll see how it all works out.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

turnera said:


> Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet?


Yes... among others. The problem we have is she is very happy with the status quo. Or was before I "started making trouble."


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Just keep your hopes in check. This might be awkward as you both are not used to it, and she will be trying to kill the fun to avoid sex.But do not give up


I have no expectations other than we go.

I know that if I even mention the possibility of intimacy that will bring the entire event crashing down around me and ruin any progress I might make.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Okay... *I have booked the Saturday.*
> 
> We have two tickets to a local theater where they are performing _Affairs of the Heart_, and I booked a Romance Package at a local resort, complete with dinner, a suite with Champagne and chocolate truffles, a fifty minute spa treatment, and breakfast the next morning.
> 
> ...





CopperTop said:


> *I have no expectations other than we go.*
> 
> I know that if I even mention the possibility of intimacy that will bring the entire event crashing down around me and ruin any progress I might make.


Good plan, now enact it...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> Good plan, now enact it...


Difficult. 

I am already running into resistance... and she doesn't even know what I have planned yet. She only knows that I want to start our "date" too early in the day.

This is why I wanted her input and buy in.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You may want to start with a less intensive date at first.

So did SHE read HNHN? There needs to be a discussion about how her gaming is an LB for you.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Depending on her love language, she may not care WHAT you do as long as you're together. For me, I'm all about physical touch and quality time. Some of the best bonding times we have is cuddling on the couch watching a movie or even sitting in bed watching goofy Youtube videos. Laughing like teenagers really bonds us. Put the kids in bed, lock your bedroom door and turn off your phones. Be together. Sexy time will follow and you save money.

Since he's big into recreational compatibility, I enjoy going to sporting events with him. Not that I'm the biggest sports nut, but again, I don't care so much about WHAT I'm doing...just being WITH him. We eat crappy food and curse when our teams lose (we live in a loser team city). I think your goal with dating at this point is to just figure each other out. The rebonding doesn't happen overnight.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Wow. How did you (and WHY) stick around so long?

She can't walk? I could see why sex is off the table if all she wants to do is eat and be on the computer. 12 hours a day is EXCESSIVE. 4 hours a day is EXCESSIVE. Ask the counselor what is a reasonable amount and have her commit to that. Set a timer if you have to. I'd insist on walks after dinner and just hold hands. Make it nightly. It can be a very leisurely stroll at first, brisker later.

What about a museum? That's very slow walking, talking, comparing perspectives on things. Gives you something to talk about, too.

I realize you have plans (fabulous ones at that - I'd do all of that, a walk AND sex several times!) but maybe for next time or for a date night?

Good luck. Your post makes me sad.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

turnera said:


> You may want to start with a less intensive date at first.


Then she should have spoken up. I tried to get her input on what she would have liked to do, but she didn't want to do anything. 

So, when in doubt, go to impress.





turnera said:


> So did SHE read HNHN? There needs to be a discussion about how her gaming is an LB for you.


No. We don't talk about intimacy, we don't read about intimacy and we don't participate in intimacy. 

I'm not sure what an "LB" is. It's not in the acronym list.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You sure you read HNHN? It's not about intimacy. It's about a healthy relationship.

LB is a basic tenet of HNHN. You have Emotional Needs that your spouse should be meeting and you should be meeting your spouse's ENs. And there are things your spouse does that Love Bust you (make you unhappy) just as there are LBs that YOU do to her. 

The goal is to meet your spouse's top 5 ENs and eliminate the ways that you LB her; and for her to meet YOUR top 5 ENs and eliminate HER LBs against you. Which, in your case, would be the hours of gaming - it makes you unhappy. 

So there needs to be a discussion about ENs and LBs - hopefully in front of a MC, so that you two agree what you each need moving forward and both agree to DO something about it.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Okay... I have booked the Saturday.
> 
> We have two tickets to a local theater where they are performing _Affairs of the Heart_, and I booked a Romance Package at a local resort, complete with dinner, a suite with Champagne and chocolate truffles, a fifty minute spa treatment, and breakfast the next morning.
> 
> ...


Nice! Good job! For another time - take her to an arcade (since she likes video gamed) and play them together. 

The important part is to connect, laugh together, have fun and put no pressure on her. (including sexual pressure or expectations since that is the problem). Woo the girl, present your best side forward. Just like you did before you were married. Even if she is a killjoy - 
You can be charming and stay upbeat and enjoy yourself.

Have a fantastic time!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

yeah_right said:


> Depending on her love language, she may not care WHAT you do as long as you're together.


Words of affirmation and acts of service.




yeah_right said:


> For me, I'm all about physical touch and quality time. Some of the best bonding times we have is cuddling on the couch watching a movie or even sitting in bed watching goofy Youtube videos. Laughing like teenagers really bonds us. Put the kids in bed, lock your bedroom door and turn off your phones. Be together. Sexy time will follow and you save money.


To quote C2... "The only thing I want to do when I go to bed is to sleep."





yeah_right said:


> Since he's big into recreational compatibility, I enjoy going to sporting events with him. Not that I'm the biggest sports nut, but again, I don't care so much about WHAT I'm doing...just being WITH him. We eat crappy food and curse when our teams lose (we live in a loser team city). I think your goal with dating at this point is to just figure each other out. The rebonding doesn't happen overnight.


I understand. But she doesn't want to do anything like the stuff you mentioned. No movies. No snuggles. No being together. We share no common interests because her only interest is her game and I just can't get into them.

I'm more of a doer. I like to do things. Simple things. For example, there is a terrific city park within walking distance of our house. It's full of paved walking trails, many of which follow a little burbling stream. In the 10 years we have lived in this house, she has never been there with me. Not interested. 

I have some antique cars. I have offered time and again to take her with me to an event. I'm not fussy about my cars like some, so I let people sit in them and let them take pictures of their kids behind the wheels. I've met some great and friendly people. She can't be bothered. 

Movies? Maybe once or twice a year... and we take the kids. Movie night at home. "You guys (me and the kids) go ahead. Maybe I will join you later." She never does. 

I had to argue HARD to get her to stop inviting the kids out with us on your anniversary when they got old enough to stay home alone. 

She's a very tough nut to crack, which is why, after 20 years trying, I have FINALLY manged to get her into counseling to try to work on these issue. 

Since she wouldn't give many any guidance I went all out to impress.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Stick with it and impress! Good plan!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Date night? Well, if she won't go, tell her you're going alone or with whoever else will go with you. The therapist said! Did the therapist say you had to take your wife?

Seriously, though, she seems passive-aggressive about this idea. And you said she ruled out any physical activities. Is she disabled? That would be a legitimate excuse, perhaps, but otherwise doing something together that is outside BOTH your comfort zones is a very good idea to help connect and bond.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Why won't she do stuff simply because YOU want to? Don't you do things with or for her that you aren't that crazy about? Isn't marriage about compromise, not her way 'or else'? I understand being LD but she almost sounds depressed, withdrawn or maybe was abused as a child. Does she laugh? Does she find JOY in anything besides the kids?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: Date Night*



CopperTop said:


> Difficult.
> 
> I am already running into resistance... and she doesn't even know what I have planned yet. She only knows that I want to start our "date" too early in the day.
> 
> This is why I wanted her input and buy in.


Be assuring to her. Of course, there will be anxiety the first time. Let her know if she feels uncomfortable you can go slow, but you've gone over the situation and have confidence that whatever happens you both can handle it. 

Then be ready for her to fall apart and do her best to throw a wrench into it. If she does, stand tall, listen, tell her you understand her fears, then assure her the sky isn't going to fall.

Whatever happens, even in failure, don't show her despair. Move on to the next activity. 

Does that make sense?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Tell her sex is off the table. This is just about relaxing and having fun together. Nothing more is expected.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

What I'm saying here doesn't add a thing, so for that I'm sorry. Already complaining? How negative! I couldn't stand it. I'd be out. I'm not encouraging you to give up, I'm amazed at your tenacity. 

Ignore the complaints. Just tell her to be ready. This is what you planned. Yes that's when we're leaving. No negotiation. Same with the other events.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

turnera said:


> You sure you read HNHN? It's not about intimacy. It's about a healthy relationship.
> 
> LB is a basic tenet of HNHN. You have Emotional Needs that your spouse should be meeting and you should be meeting your spouse's ENs. And there are things your spouse does that Love Bust you (make you unhappy) just as there are LBs that YOU do to her.
> 
> ...


Not to hijack my own thread... but yes, I have read the book, but it was a long time ago. The problem I have is that if I behave (no seduction attempts) she thinks we have the perfect marriage. She gets everything she wants. 

As far as my wants? She meets a lot of them, but the big one that we're missing is intimacy. And she sees that as MY problem so she doesn't care to address it. My asking for intimacy is "love buster" issue for her.

Sorry about the LB. There are so many acronyms on Talk About Marriage I have a hard time keeping up sometimes.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Date night? Well, if she won't go, tell her you're going alone or with whoever else will go with you. The therapist said! Did the therapist say you had to take your wife?


No, the therapist didn't say I had to take C2. But... can I sleep in your garage? 





Married but Happy said:


> Seriously, though, she seems passive-aggressive about this idea. And you said she ruled out any physical activities. Is she disabled?


She is very passive-aggressive when she doesn't want to do something. 

Overweight with brewing heart troubles. 





Married but Happy said:


> That would be a legitimate excuse, perhaps, but otherwise doing something together that is outside BOTH your comfort zones is a very good idea to help connect and bond.


I'm game for just about anything at this point to try to get us back on track. But for us to find that something, I require a little input.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Why won't she do stuff simply because YOU want to?


She will, but only to a point. 




EnjoliWoman said:


> Don't you do things with or for her that you aren't that crazy about?


All the time, but mine are very simple. Like shopping with her so I can tote packages. Mostly she asks very little from me because she doesn't really want to do anything. 





EnjoliWoman said:


> Isn't marriage about compromise, not her way 'or else'? I understand being LD but she almost sounds depressed, withdrawn or maybe was abused as a child. Does she laugh?


I don't want to paint her in a bad light. It isn't "my way or the highway" with her. But she has no interests other than the game. And before that, genealogy. 

And yes, she laughs easily. 




EnjoliWoman said:


> Does she find JOY in anything besides the kids?


The game. Her family (mother, sister, aunts, uncles etc). She likes to eat out once a week since she cooks all the meals (my job is house cleaning, laundry, cars & outside). 

She's not a bad person... she just more interested in her friends and the game than she is in me most of the time.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow, your wife is a total drag! She is going to HAVE to step out of her comfort zone if she wants to make this work. If she refuses to do it, then that tells you where she really is with things, that she doesnt care to save it. 

Personally, I think you should do a few date nights that are JUST dates, and skip the overnights for now. Take the sex off the table for a little bit to help her feel more comfortable, she probably feels pressured by that. I certainly would. Get comfortable just being one on one for a little while first.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

anchorwatch said:


> Be assuring to her. Of course, there will be anxiety the first time. Let her know if she feels uncomfortable you can go slow, but you've gone over the situation and have confidence that whatever happens you both can handle it.
> 
> Then be ready for her to fall apart and do her best to throw a wrench into it. If she does, stand tall, listen, tell her you understand her fears, then assure her the sky isn't going to fall.
> 
> ...


It does, but that's not what will happen. It's not like she will have some kind of panic attack. 

She will go to each thing (probably) but if she doesn't like it for some reason I will get a regular kicking the gentleman sausage for setting it up without consulting with her first. After all, she TOLD me what she wanted to do and I ignored her.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> No, the therapist didn't say I had to take C2. But... can I sleep in your garage?


Yes, but only for a week, then you're on your own.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, your wife is a total drag! She is going to HAVE to step out of her comfort zone if she wants to make this work. If she refuses to do it, then that tells you where she really is with things, that she doesnt care to save it.
> 
> Personally, I think you should do a few date nights that are JUST dates, and skip the overnights for now. Take the sex off the table for a little bit to help her feel more comfortable, she probably feels pressured by that. I certainly would. Get comfortable just being one on one for a little while first.


I think what the counselor is thinking is that she doesn't want to do "date nights." If we go out, the kids tag along because she feels bad leaving them behind. 

I don't know why she would feel pressured for sex. We have been intimate once in 13 months and it was her idea. I have backed completely off from initiating because it was driving us ever farther apart. 

This weekend will be the same thing. I won't even try.


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## RobQ (Mar 1, 2015)

What "game" does she play on the computer?

Must be some game to keep her occupied for 30 hours/week!!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

RobQ said:


> What "game" does she play on the computer?
> 
> Must be some game to keep her occupied for 30 hours/week!!


Wizards and Pirates.

They are related games by the same company.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> We have attended our first night of marriage counseling and in addition to all the other homework, my wife and I are supposed to have a date night. The counselor suggested that we go out and spend the evening together, just the two of us. This includes an overnight in a motel. She wants us to try to reconnect and remember why we fell in love in the first place.
> 
> We go out as a family weekly, but we haven’t had but maybe four date nights in twenty years. We have no support close, and kids don’t seem to babysit anymore, so all through the child rearing years we were never able. Now that the kids are old enough to stay home, and we could do something just the two of us, C2 hasn't shown much interest in ditching the kids for a few hours. The nearest thing I have been able to get is for the last few years for us to have dinner on our anniversary, just the two of us, but that was just out for dinner, then right back home.
> 
> ...



It will be hard to break the computer that she apparently likes a lot. Without the walking or the walking is an issue there is not much you can do. Museums, nope. Go to a historical spot for the day, nope. So what gives that she can not walk? 

It appears she is making up excuses to stay home on the computer?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> As far as my wants? She meets a lot of them, but the big one that we're missing is intimacy. And she sees that as MY problem so she doesn't care to address it. My asking for intimacy is "love buster" issue for her.


I see two options: Taking this to the MC and getting the MC to get her to see intimacy is expected in a marriage and you'll stay in MC until you drill down to figure out WHY she is not wanting it (it probably has something to do with you). 

Or flat out telling her if she won't consider that part of marriage you will (1) stop meeting HER needs (financial, etc.) and (2) start making plans to end the marriage.

As it is, she has no reason to change because you continue to meet her ENs and you're accepting no intimacy. Give her a reason.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: Date Night*



CopperTop said:


> It does, but that's not what will happen. It's not like she will have some kind of panic attack.
> 
> She will go to each thing (probably) but if she doesn't like it for some reason I will get a regular kicking the gentleman sausage for setting it up without consulting with her first. After all, she TOLD me what she wanted to do and I ignored her.


Oh, believe me. I understand. I really didn't mean a panic attack, I meant resistance. 

My retort is, I'm taking you out this time, our next date will be your turn to take me out.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Maybe baby steps will help. If she's overweight with brewing heart trouble she NEEDS exercise and walking is the perfect way to start. And it can be perfect couple time as well. Just 30 minutes after dinner while the kids clean up the kitchen.

Maybe she could compromise on that as a 'homework' item? Get some very mild exercise, give you both alone time and it's not a LOT of time away from her game so it's a small concession.

I'm glad she still laughs and finds joy in things. It sounds like she escapes into the game to avoid dealing with the marital issues and her weight/health issues and general unhappiness. IMO


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> It will be hard to break the computer that she apparently likes a lot. Without the walking or the walking is an issue there is not much you can do. Museums, nope. Go to a historical spot for the day, nope. So what gives that she can not walk?
> 
> It appears she is making up excuses to stay home on the computer?


She had a heart attack scare a few weeks back and the doctors discovered an enlarged heart (probably because of her weight problem). 

When she walks very far she says her chest hurts. The doctors said light exercise. She is to start out slow and work up on her exercise. 

We are walking, slowly, a few nights a week for about a half-mile. Those are kind of nice. We hold hands and chat. At least she is getting out of the house.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

turnera said:


> I see two options: Taking this to the MC and getting the MC to get her to see intimacy is expected in a marriage and you'll stay in MC until you drill down to figure out WHY she is not wanting it (it probably has something to do with you).
> 
> Or flat out telling her if she won't consider that part of marriage you will (1) stop meeting HER needs (financial, etc.) and (2) start making plans to end the marriage.
> 
> As it is, she has no reason to change because you continue to meet her ENs and you're accepting no intimacy. Give her a reason.


I know. This is why we are in counseling. I have been trying for about 15 years to get us here, and I have finally managed to do it... but I fear I have wrecked our marriage in the attempt by doing number 1.

Things are very tense in the coppertop household at the moment.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Maybe baby steps will help. If she's overweight with brewing heart trouble she NEEDS exercise and walking is the perfect way to start. And it can be perfect couple time as well. Just 30 minutes after dinner while the kids clean up the kitchen.
> 
> Maybe she could compromise on that as a 'homework' item? Get some very mild exercise, give you both alone time and it's not a LOT of time away from her game so it's a small concession.
> 
> I'm glad she still laughs and finds joy in things. It sounds like she escapes into the game to avoid dealing with the marital issues and her weight/health issues and general unhappiness. IMO


She has been ignoring her weight for a very long time. But, maybe, this scare has gotten her attention. 

For the first time in a very long time, she appears to be trying to manage her weight, and is succeeding. 

I hope that is a sign that better times are around the corner. We've had plenty of the "or for worse..." now I ready for some "for better."


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## optimalprimus (Feb 4, 2015)

imho, the games have to stop and there is no softly softly approach - cold turkey and a lifestyle change.

I speak as someone susceptible to game addiction with a mother who is also a game addict. Its very pervasive and ruins lives. 

I have been able to manage my addiction (not to say it hasn't had negative effects on my life) but she clearly cannot, and should seek professional help. I wish you the best, you may have to risk losing her to save her (and yourself)


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She had a heart attack scare a few weeks back and the doctors discovered an enlarged heart (probably because of her weight problem).
> 
> When she walks very far she says her chest hurts. The doctors said light exercise. She is to start out slow and work up on her exercise.
> 
> We are walking, slowly, a few nights a week for about a half-mile. Those are kind of nice. We hold hands and chat. At least she is getting out of the house.


 Ok, you date night for the moment is walking slowly a few nights a week. Hold hands and chat. If your W does not recognize you care for her well being with these walks and supporting her to get healthy/enjoy life away from the computer I don't know what to tell you. In your case, you really are taking baby steps.

Do everything you can to get her away from the computer. It is hard but it can happen.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Ok, you date night for the moment is walking slowly a few nights a week. Hold hands and chat. If your W does not recognize you care for her well being with these walks and supporting her to get healthy/enjoy life away from the computer I don't know what to tell you. In your case, you really are taking baby steps.


If those count as date nights, then we have had a number of them over the last few weeks. They have been nice, I have enjoyed the heck out of them, and I have told her so. 

I just never really considered them a date night... more me being supportive as she tried to reach a goal.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> If those count as date nights, then we have had a number of them over the last few weeks. They have been nice, I have enjoyed the heck out of them, and I have told her so.
> 
> I just never really considered them a date night... more me being supportive as she tried to reach a goal.


What you need to accomplish is 15 hours per week of just you and your W doing something. You connect spending time together. The more time the better off you will be. Walking, talking, coffee on the porch or simply cooking together makes a world of difference. Add in your unwavering concern for her health she will fully understand you commitment to the marriage and her. 

Time together=connecting. Date is a relative term. In my world, time together doing anything is a plus. So yes, your walks is time well spent. 

You appear to have great resolve in making this work. God Bless.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Difficult.
> 
> I am already running into resistance... and she doesn't even know what I have planned yet. She only knows that I want to start our "date" too early in the day.
> 
> This is why I wanted her input and buy in.


I think your plans were terrific and I'm so sorry that she is already trying to screw it all up for you. This is familiar territory, whenever I try to do something nice for JB2 she always manages to have some kind of time conflict or doesn't want to do anything. That's why I'm so against MC, they give you all these well intentioned assignments that always allow an escape clause for wives and harsh penalties for husbands. 

I hope you guys have fun.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The 15 hours a week can be doing anything together. Give her a reason to see that just being with you can be something she looks forward to so the gaming seems less appealing and she'll start to want YOU to meet her ENs instead of the game (and whoever she's playing against). Set up a jigsaw puzzle and just sit down now and then and work on it for a few minutes. Or a chess set. Do crossword puzzles together. Have a cup of coffee. Set up an herb garden. Take a cooking class (healthy cooking). Play solitaire against each other. Just start living life.

Have you also looked into whether you're a Nice Guy? She may have lost respect for you if you are, and you'll need to change that.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

> *Just start living life.*


Bingo. 

Sitting in front of a computer is not living life. It's my job but I do not go home and play on a computer. 

I was were you W is now. In front of a computer whenever I could. Play games and general waste of time on it. Cold turkey. Filled my time doing with with my W. I game when I have the time. I really don't have much time for it anymore. Busy with the W.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> We have attended our first night of marriage counseling and in addition to all the other homework, my wife and I are supposed to have a date night. The counselor suggested that we go out and spend the evening together, just the two of us. This includes an overnight in a motel. She wants us to try to reconnect and remember why we fell in love in the first place.
> 
> We go out as a family weekly, but we haven’t had but maybe four date nights in twenty years. We have no support close, and kids don’t seem to babysit anymore, so all through the child rearing years we were never able. Now that the kids are old enough to stay home, and we could do something just the two of us, C2 hasn't shown much interest in ditching the kids for a few hours. The nearest thing I have been able to get is for the last few years for us to have dinner on our anniversary, just the two of us, but that was just out for dinner, then right back home.
> 
> ...


Log into your router and redirect all of the inbound TCP and UDP ports to an IP that doesn't exist on your home network.

:smthumbup:


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## ToothFairy (May 19, 2013)

Based on the number of hours you say she is playing video games - the kids don't spend much time with their mom either. 

Maybe you and the kids should go on a date night. Do some of the fun things like games, shows, movies, hiking with them.

She sounds like a bore. You need to shake things up for your entire family.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

turnera said:


> Have you also looked into whether you're a Nice Guy? She may have lost respect for you if you are, and you'll need to change that.


NO! Not the dreaded nice guy! 

I've read No More Mr. Nice Guy and I'm not that guy. Never was. There was a huge row on another of my threads about this... how when I stand up to her and said, "Do, or do not, but I'm doing this without or without you," I was accused of rug-sweeping problems. 

So, to answer your question, no. I try to accommodate her as much as I can, but when we can't find a compromise, I go on with my life. I always ask her to join me, and she can choose to participate or not. So far, it's been mostly not.

To be fair, she has done the same thing to me. She asked me to join the gaming community with her. I tried it for about a week then decided I had better things to do. So she said, "Fine, I'm playing without you," and she took over my account for her own.

Hard for me to object when I do the same thing to her with antique car restoration and racing. 

On the up side, I had been teaching her to shoot (I finally convinced her to get her carry concealed weapon permit) but she she has sort of lost interest in doing it anymore and we haven't been shooting in several months. So now I'm going to the range by myself again.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Do you think she might have an agoraphobic streak? I'm wondering if she is simply resisting going out in public because of being self concious about her weight.

What about four-wheeling, or a nature drive? You both get out of the house--she doesn't have to deal with being in public--and you're both confined to a small place where all you have to do is talk with each other.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Log into your router and redirect all of the inbound TCP and UDP ports to an IP that doesn't exist on your home network.
> 
> :smthumbup:


That's not how it works. If I walk in the door and the internet/computer(s)/home network is down, it is the MOST critical thing in the world. 

I'm the alpha nerd at work and she knows I can fix almost anything computer related. In fact, she rents me out to friends to fix their computers. But that's another issue. At least she asks first now. 

So saying, "Sorry honey, it's broken," isn't going to fly. 

Not that I haven't thought of doing something like that.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> That's not how it works. If I walk in the door and the internet/computer(s)/home network is down, it is the MOST critical thing in the world.
> 
> I'm the alpha nerd at work and she knows I can fix almost anything computer related. In fact, she rents me out to friends to fix their computers. But that's another issue. At least she asks first now.
> 
> ...


I see. And I feel your pain.

Maybe drop your ISP for Comcast...?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ToothFairy said:


> Based on the number of hours you say she is playing video games - the kids don't spend much time with their mom either.


Nope. But the youngest is 15 now, so that isn't the issue it was.





ToothFairy said:


> Maybe you and the kids should go on a date night. Do some of the fun things like games, shows, movies, hiking with them.


We do. My son (the youngest) and I are very close. The daughter (the older of the two) is much like her mother. My son and I do lots of fun stuff together. He's my car buddy and I'm about to start teaching him how to drive "properly..." as in heel-toe, threshold braking, Rockford turns and drifting. I'm almost as excited about it as he is! I would like to teach, and have offered, C2 the same lessons... but... again... not interested. She views cars the same way as I look at toasters. 




ToothFairy said:


> She sounds like a bore. You need to shake things up for your entire family.


Been trying. This date night is another step in that direction.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Do you think she might have an agoraphobic streak? I'm wondering if she is simply resisting going out in public because of being self concious about her weight.


Hmmmm... I wonder. I would say no because she does the shopping and doesn't seem to mind that. But still, I hadn't thought of that.





Fozzy said:


> What about four-wheeling, or a nature drive? You both get out of the house--she doesn't have to deal with being in public--and you're both confined to a small place where all you have to do is talk with each other.


I had a motorcycle once and she refused to even touch it. Said it was dangerous (which they are) and she wanted to have nothing to do with it. I will see what she thinks of a quad-bike. If she is interested then maybe I can find someplace to rent a couple.

The nature drive... she only sleeps in a car. We can be on the road 5 minutes and she's OUT. Worth a try though. The NC mountains are only about 4 hours from here. Many beautiful roads to drive there. 

We were going to do that one time, in my Austin-Healey. One of my bucket list items was to drive the entire length of the Blue Ridge Parkway in that car. 

I asked her to go and spend four days in the mountains with me. She said yes, but two weeks before we were to leave, she changed her mind because she realized the car was too uncomfortable and she couldn't sleep in the car. So my son and I went instead. We had a BLAST!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Yeah... 3 out of 7 (3, 5 & 7) isn't so bad I guess.


*Let's just say that at my advanced age in life, not to even mention my rather advanced state of physical decomposition, anytime that I'm lucky enough to get No. 2, No. 4, and No. 6 ~ I'm definitely going to need a liberal dose of No. 7!*


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> That's not how it works. If I walk in the door and the internet/computer(s)/home network is down, it is the MOST critical thing in the world.
> 
> I'm the alpha nerd at work and she knows I can fix almost anything computer related. In fact, she rents me out to friends to fix their computers. But that's another issue. At least she asks first now.
> 
> ...


Oh man I feel your pain. You know what I finally said with all the broken this, virus that and this is not working? I said, "I can provide the technology to you but I cannot manage it for you as well." 

Like I said, it will be hard to pull her from the computer. I was one for playing the games all day and busy ignoring life. Cold turkey was the only answer.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Do you think she might have an agoraphobic streak? I'm wondering if she is simply resisting going out in public because of being self concious about her weight.


Very valid question.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Her gaming is at full blown addict level. She need a detox/taper program. This needs to be addressed in therapy.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Oh man I feel your pain. You know what I finally said with all the broken this, virus that and this is not working? I said, "I can provide the technology to you but I cannot manage it for you as well."


We have one standing rule at the Coppertop house... if you see ANYTHING on the computer you haven't seen before, you stop and call me. Don't touch anything!

It's worked pretty well as a last ditch defense against the boogyman. 





Yeswecan said:


> Like I said, it will be hard to pull her from the computer. I was one for playing the games all day and busy ignoring life. Cold turkey was the only answer.


Ah... but see... you recognized a problem. C2 doesn't think she has a problem and has stated same many time. When I question her time on the computer, I'm just being a troll, or clingy, or selfish.

The problem isn't the game, its her. She was the same way when she was interested in genealogy. Hours and hours spent researching her family tree. 

And really, I don't mind the game. What I mind is the game to the exclusion of all else.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

kristin2349 said:


> Her gaming is at full blown addict level. She need a detox/taper program. This needs to be addressed in therapy.


I'm sure it will come up sooner or later. But I'm not going into this with all guns blazing because that will just makes her defensive. Better to let the counselor draw it out of her a little at a time.

I've been patient for this long. Another few weeks isn't going to hurt me.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> We have one standing rule at the Coppertop house... if you see ANYTHING on the computer you haven't seen before, you stop and call me. Don't touch anything!
> 
> It's worked pretty well as a last ditch defense against the boogyman.
> 
> ...



I did not recognize the problem either. I played it off as my "hobby" and keeps me out of the bars, yadda yadda. Not until my W said MC and divorce did I see the computer is a major issue if one allows it to be. I was being neglectful. I had to drop it. The games for hours gone. I got over truthfully but have also made a balance. I still play games but only when there is time to do so. Maybe 2 hours a week. And truthfully my W lets me have my ME time. Could be car shows or taking a few hours to play games. I can say we spend well over 25 hours per week doing things together. Could be sipping a coffee on the deck, shopping, visiting small historical towns and gardening. It does not have to be a date night thing at all.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I'm sure it will come up sooner or later. But I'm not going into this with all guns blazing because that will just makes her defensive. Better to let the counselor draw it out of her a little at a time.
> 
> I've been patient for this long. Another few weeks isn't going to hurt me.


You do not need guns a-blazing. You do however need to express that the computer time your W is using leaves nothing to the imagination that it is neglectful to you and the family. You did not marry a IT professional who monitors the network 24/7. As a result, this is were you stand today. Lonely and looking in from the outside of what was a great relationship. In short, it is a fair warning that things are amiss as a result of the computer time. Things need to change. The change will better overall for your W health, the family and you. A change for good.


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## HHB (Nov 21, 2014)

So let me see. C2 is fat, obnoxious, disrespectful, ignores you and your legitimate needs, ignores the kids so she can play computer games and is a high maintenance drama queen. 

You are staying in this relationship because?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

HHB said:


> So let me see. C2 is fat, obnoxious, disrespectful, ignores you and your legitimate needs, ignores the kids so she can play computer games and is a high maintenance drama queen.
> 
> You are staying in this relationship because?


OMG, THANK YOU!! I was trying to figure out the same thing! :scratchhead:


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

HHB said:


> So let me see. C2 is fat, obnoxious, disrespectful, ignores you and your legitimate needs, ignores the kids so she can play computer games and is a high maintenance drama queen.
> 
> You are staying in this relationship because?



Because there was a time were C2 was anything but what you listed above? :scratchhead:


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

HHB said:


> So let me see. C2 is fat, obnoxious, disrespectful, ignores you and your legitimate needs, ignores the kids so she can play computer games and is a high maintenance drama queen.
> 
> You are staying in this relationship because?





3Xnocharm said:


> OMG, THANK YOU!! I was trying to figure out the same thing! :scratchhead:


I never said any of that. 

She is trying to address her weight now. She is not obnoxious or disrespectful, we don't agree on the level of intimacy but that doesn't make her wrong and me right, does not ignore the kids or me, and is not high maintenance or a drama queen. 




Yeswecan said:


> Because there was a time were C2 was anything but what you listed above? :scratchhead:


I stay because I remember how she can be and I still care for her. I'm not giving up on us until I have exhausted all possible solutions.

I am hopeful that now that we are in marriage counseling, this is our first step on the road to recovery. I also hope the upcoming date night is the second.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I never said any of that.
> 
> She is trying to address her weight now. She is not obnoxious or disrespectful, we don't agree on the level of intimacy but that doesn't make her wrong and me right, does not ignore the kids or me, and is not high maintenance or a drama queen.
> 
> ...


You don't have to explain yourself. You are doing what is right in your mind. That is all that matters.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

HHB said:


> So let me see. C2 is fat, obnoxious, disrespectful, ignores you and your legitimate needs, ignores the kids so she can play computer games and is a high maintenance drama queen.
> 
> You are staying in this relationship because?





CopperTop said:


> I never said any of that.


You're right, you never said any of that... but it's what many of us here are seeing in the situation. Much of her behavior does sound petulant, childish, disrespectful, and negligent.

Most importantly, disrespectful to and negligent of you and your marriage. Not to mention negligent of her own well-being!

You're being very sensitive to and accepting of her shortcomings, and that's generous. But don't make excuses for her; be objective as you can. The line between shortcomings and excuses is a very fine line, and my guess is that some of the peanut gallery here sees you toeing, or even crossing, that line.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Why won't she do stuff simply because YOU want to? Don't you do things with or for her that you aren't that crazy about? Isn't marriage about compromise, not her way 'or else'? I understand being LD but she almost sounds depressed, withdrawn or maybe was abused as a child. Does she laugh? Does she find JOY in anything besides the kids?



TV.... 

Some people are killjoys...

My personal recs... Out of town for a couple days in the nearest million people city... Art gazing, shopping, plenty of things to do, etc.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> You're right, you never said any of that... but it's what many of us here are seeing in the situation. Much of her behavior does sound petulant, childish, disrespectful, and negligent.
> 
> Most importantly, disrespectful to and negligent of you and your marriage. Not to mention negligent of her own well-being!
> 
> You're being very sensitive to and accepting of her shortcomings, and that's generous. But don't make excuses for her; be objective as you can. The line between shortcomings and excuses is a very fine line, and my guess is that some of the peanut gallery here sees you toeing, or even crossing, that line.


This thread is beginning to diverge from the original intent. But let me say this... she doesn't disrespect me as much as I think she takes me for granted. In other words, she knows I will always be there for her and she has stopped trying. That and her sex drive is non-existant.

I'm trying to fix that with these counseling sessions.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> This thread is beginning to diverge from the original intent. But let me say this... she doesn't disrespect me as much as I think she takes me for granted. In other words, she knows I will always be there for her and she has stopped trying. I'm hoping to fix that with these counseling sessions.


Threads have a way of doing that 

Taking a loved one for granted is, in a way, quite disrespectful. I sincerely hope that the two of you will be able to fix these problems, but both of you need to be willing to put in the effort. We see a lot of effort and care coming from your side. I only hope she is willing to do the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

That post she made on his other thread said a lot. In so many ways. Shaking my head. 

As to this thread, I think your idea was a good one but maybe a little over the top right now. I hope all goes well.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> Taking a loved one for granted is, in a way, quite disrespectful.


Perhaps... but I don't think it's an intentional disrespect. She respects me in most ways that are important. But we have such wildly different desires for physical intimacy, I don't believe she understands what she is doing.





FeministInPink said:


> I sincerely hope that the two of you will be able to fix these problems, but both of you need to be willing to put in the effort. We see a lot of effort and care coming from your side. I only hope she is willing to do the same.


Thank you... I do too. The proof of the pudding will come when she is asked to change some of her beliefs. This weekend should be easy for her because she likes to eat out, likes to sleep and likes to be pampered. I assume she will like the theater since she likes movies. So this should be a weekend she really enjoys.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> CopperTop
> 
> I can't read this thread without thinking about your other ones.
> 
> ...


No. I actually think she will balk ever step of the way, and if pressed, will become quite adamant in her objections. But this weekend I'm not asking her to change. We go out to eat now. We go to the movies occasionally now. We sleep in the same bed now. 

This weekend will be mostly the same as always. Dinner will be just the two of us, as will the theater, but the rest of the weekend will be pretty normal for us. 

I'm not asking for anything from her... so she has no reason to balk or otherwise get upset. I've been a good boy for 13 months in the seduction department. So she has relaxed a lot about that. 

Now I'm trying to recover from the rather more harsh treatment I gave her over the last month or so to move us to where we are. 





intheory said:


> She's gonna shut you down every step of the way.
> 
> How I hope I am wrong.
> 
> Good Luck.


When she has to start examining some of her long held beliefs, I think she is going to become problematic and difficult to manage. So in that area I agree with you. So I hope we are both wrong.

Thanks for the best wishes.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Openminded said:


> That post she made on his other thread said a lot. In so many ways. Shaking my head.
> 
> As to this thread, I think your idea was a good one but maybe a little over the top right now. I hope all goes well.


Maybe so... but she should have given me some direction on what she wanted if she didn't want me plan it all out for her. As I said before... when in doubt, try to be impressive.

If I'm going to fail, at least I can say I failed spectacularly.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Careful about going over the top. Lest you reward her bad behavior. Keep it simple. And stop asking her permission or opinion. Just plan it and take her out.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Another day, another Coppertop thread. SSDD.

Listen people, before this becomes another magnum opus in utter frustration you need to look at this person's other threads.

Assuming for a moment this isn't the most epic troll in TAM history, Coppertop isn't going to change and neither is his wife. She's one of the worst spouses to ever be posted about here, and he's one of the most enabling, kowtowing, "nice guys" you've ever met. All of these threads end exactly the same way: the Coopertop martyr show on repeat. He refuses to divorce his "wife", she knows this and refuses to do much in the way of change, and he comes here looking for advice he doesn't take, for fresh sympathy and attention he doesn't get at home. Each new thread is a call for new readers, making his avatar extraordinarily appropriate.

Do yourself a favor. Run.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

CT, how well did the get-away go?


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