# Can people with cheater mentality ever be good parents?



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

I’ve been pondering lately, since I’ve had ample time to do so being on my own...my life and family ruined by a cheater (albeit temporarily as I will recover and build anew), I have come to ponder two really important questions relevant to my life: Does a person who finds the ability to cheat, who lacks the morals and self control to stay faithful, have the ability to be a great parent? Is a person who allows themselves to become so morally bankrupt--to pervert themselves and their values with an affair--able to be a great parent without serious intervention? So far I know the answer to my own question, but I think it’s important to discuss. And I’m interested in others viewpoints.


Notice that I don’t even mention the impossible option that a person who is a cheater can concurrently be a great parent. Not even entertaining this argument. Subpar parenting is not in my book GREAT parenting. GREAT parenting cannot coexist with a person who lies, betrays and deceives one's family and self and diverts their attention and resources outside the family.

If you are in denial about the damage affairs cause to children and families, perhaps you should consider that many studies show how damaging it is EVEN when the people being betrayed don’t know what’s being done. Additionally, children who are too young to understand almost always eventually do know. And it’s not pretty. This means even unborn children reap consequences far, far into the future because along the way, they find out mommy or daddy was a cheater, assuming serious, consistent changes in the cheater have not occured. (This means taking 100% responsibility for the infidelity, separate from any issues in the marriage, and focusing on personal responsibility instead of trying to attack any real or perceived flaws in the betrayed spouse.) Also, we don’t give kids enough credit for intuiting dynamics, body language and learning to question authority. They see and feel everything. They KNOW..


Food for thought: I ran across this article, children intuit affairs and feel the sweeping repercussions.


How to ruin your child's chance of a happy love life: Have an affair - and the damage is WORSE the older they are when you stray


Then let’s discuss the following that indicates children of cheaters are more likely to be cheaters. Can I also refer back to the fact that kids are more intelligent and intuitive than people give them credit for? I’d say the majority of children coming from cheating parents know their parent is a cheater by the time they are 18, without being told. Given that my WH came from two cheating parents, it resonates with me. His brother also cheated, though much earlier on in his marriage. Are they trying to resolve conflicts they see in their parents, or are they just completely screwed up and have their compass set to some faulty “affair” point for life? I can’t tell you how many times I heard my (kind of) H say how disgusted he was by specifically his mother’s serial cheating.


Children of cheaters twice as likely to be unfaithful: Study


And for those of you statistically inclined, there is some pretty good evidence that having an affair is a really great way to destroy your kids, regardless of what stage of life they are in. The echo of betrayal, selfishness and perversion of the mind, soul and being resonate with children for life (these are my own words of course):


Feature: Children of Infidelity – Family Mantra

This leads me to my next point, and really the point of this post, can kids recover and build a real, loving relationship with a person willing to destroy a marriage, family and themselves all for the highest degree of self satisfaction? Did they ever have it? Can a child have a meaningful and healthy relationship with a person who doesn’t have the ability to consider others before themselves? NO, I don’t think so.


I would argue that the cheater has to completely reinvent themselves and change the essence of who they are and what they’re willing to do to be the sacrificing, selfless parent every child MUST have to engage in a healthy relationship, before that can happen. Otherwise, a broken person is a broken parent. And thus, affairs destroy generations of people, not just a marriage to one person. 


I guess I am hoping that I can intercept the damage done by educating my children over time on how to avoid the deception of being self satisfying, attention seeking, and focused on “feeling good” through any means possible. Especially AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS. I see these as the core deficiencies of cheaters, and I hope I can address them before they happen. I highly doubt a person still plainly exhibiting these deficiencies could possibly do the same… therefore more cheaters are born and bred.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Monkey see, monkey do. Kids watch their parents and learn how to be an adult. That's why poor parents usually have poor kids, and addict parents birth children who go on to be addicts. Maybe part of it is genetic but I think a lot of it has to do with copying their parents behavior.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> Does a person who finds the ability to cheat, who lacks the morals and self control to stay faithful, have the ability to be a great parent? Is a person who allows themselves to become so morally bankrupt--to pervert themselves and their values with an affair--able to be a great parent without serious intervention? So far I know the answer to my own question, but I think it’s important to discuss. And I’m interested in others viewpoints.


I think they can still be good parents, I also think morality is a product of location. Where I live marriage is a business arrangement between a man and a woman, to accumulate land and property and to raise children. Sex is viewed purely as entertainment.
Sometimes guys will set up a second household with another woman, and have more kids, with both women knowing about the other.

My current wife (of 12 years) has certainly had boyfriends (not so much now she's 40), and I've also had other girlfriends (not so much now I'm 65) but last year I was seeing a girl on the side every week. I don't feel my wife or I are bad parents, our 10 year old son seems happy enough.

But then again is it cheating if you're both OK with it?
It's just sex.


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Mine were **** parents. Serious neglect and abuse, and still miserable. Lost contact years ago, they were strange people. And their parents too (only 1 out of 4 grandparents didn’t cheat, she was a good mum and grandmother)


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Most people arent all bad and can be a loving parent while doing bad things elsewhere.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I think they can still be good parents, I also think morality is a product of location. Where I live marriage is a business arrangement between a man and a woman, to accumulate land and property and to raise children. Sex is viewed purely as entertainment.
> Sometimes guys will set up a second household with another woman, and have more kids, with both women knowing about the other.
> 
> My current wife (of 12 years) has certainly had boyfriends (not so much now she's 40), and I've also had other girlfriends (not so much now I'm 65) but last year I was seeing a girl on the side every week. I don't feel my wife or I are bad parents, our 10 year old son seems happy enough.
> ...


Not cheating but adultery and unfaithfullness.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Not cheating but adultery and unfaithfullness.


That's really a concept of Abrahamic Religions.
My wedding vow was to provide for her, and her wedding vow was to serve me.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Good topic. I certainly agree. The cheater doesn't just cheat on the spouse, they cheat on the family. That's been the thing bugging me as of late when reading these infidelity stories. Every second a cheater spends planning their next tryst or being with their AP is another second they could be spending on their spouse or their kids. Every time the cheater leaves their house to be with their AP, They are telling their kids, "Sorry, I'd rather go get my rocks off than spend time with you.". I can't imagine ever telling my kids they are worthless - but that is exactly what the cheater is saying to their children. Their value is lower than the AP. Horrible.


Same goes for future kids. The marriage between two people where infidelity has shown its ugly face will never be the same. I don't subscribe to "The marriage will be rebuilt, better than before" mantra. There might be enough time that passes that its sorta put in the back of the mind of the betrayed and wayward, but it is always going to be an underlying situation in the background. How many stories of infidelity have we come across where a parent of an adulterer is a little too over-zealous of their support? Oh, I see, the parent themselves was also an adulterer. Greaaaaaaaaaat. Besides that, I could imagine some arguments between mommy and daddy as the kids grow up. Maybe a lot more than what would probably be there if there was no adultery. Maybe one day the truth slips out in an argument so the growing kids know why mommy and daddy argue all the time. Yeah, I don't think the adulterer parent could ever be "all there" for the kids.


And this also fits into the "No one gets hurt if no one knows" category that so many waywards think is true..... which is laughable. Remember, every second away from the house screwing an AP is a second they could be spending with their kids. So the kids have to sit there wondering why mommy or daddy is leaving the house again tonight. Why are the spending so much time away from the house? What a great way to make the children feel unloved. So the adulterer spends quality time with the kids when they get home. Who cares? The next time they need an orgasm, they'll toss their children aside to go get it. It's very clear who is the top priority in the adulterer's eyes.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Remember, every second away from the house screwing an AP is a second they could be spending with their kids.


You think people can't meet for sex when the kids are at school?


----------



## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

As with most things, this isn't a binary "can they" or "can't they." 

Some cheaters have a remarkable ability to compartmentalize aspects of their life and one piece rarely bleeds over into another. For others, it's all intertwined into every single thing they do.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And some faithful people are awful parents.


----------



## Cici1990 (Feb 22, 2021)

...


----------



## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

There may be exceptions of a good parent who can commit adultery but I think in general, if you’re putting the stability of your kids family at risk, you’re not a good parent. Then there’s the hurting your kids other parent. Do I really love my kids if I betray their mom in such a foundational way. Especially if I’m giving my heart to another woman? The answer is no. If I’m putting my desire for some hot new vag ahead of my family’s stability, I am not a good father. I would consider such a person to be a POS.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I think they can still be good parents, I also think morality is a product of location. Where I live marriage is a business arrangement between a man and a woman, to accumulate land and property and to raise children. Sex is viewed purely as entertainment.
> Sometimes guys will set up a second household with another woman, and have more kids, with both women knowing about the other.
> 
> My current wife (of 12 years) has certainly had boyfriends (not so much now she's 40), and I've also had other girlfriends (not so much now I'm 65) but last year I was seeing a girl on the side every week. I don't feel my wife or I are bad parents, our 10 year old son seems happy enough.
> ...


Your situation doesn't fit what @QuietRiot is talking about. You and your wife are not lying and sneaking around behind each other's back.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> I’ve been pondering lately, since I’ve had ample time to do so being on my own...my life and family ruined by a cheater (albeit temporarily as I will recover and build anew), I have come to ponder two really important questions relevant to my life: Does a person who finds the ability to cheat, who lacks the morals and self control to stay faithful, have the ability to be a great parent? Is a person who allows themselves to become so morally bankrupt--to pervert themselves and their values with an affair--able to be a great parent without serious intervention? So far I know the answer to my own question, but I think it’s important to discuss. And I’m interested in others viewpoints.
> 
> 
> Notice that I don’t even mention the impossible option that a person who is a cheater can concurrently be a great parent. Not even entertaining this argument. Subpar parenting is not in my book GREAT parenting. GREAT parenting cannot coexist with a person who lies, betrays and deceives one's family and self and diverts their attention and resources outside the family.
> ...


On one hand I think a cheater could be a great parent. We see it in leaders all the time. They may suck at one aspect of their life, but they are incredibly good and effective leaders. I think the same could be true for a person that cheats. However, their parenting skills would have to be astronomical to overcome the damage caused by their lying, sneaking around and total disregard for the feelings of a person they are supposedly in love with.


----------



## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Another major characteristic of what takes place in an affair is the emotional distance it causes. I think WWs tend to suffer from this even more than do WHs. Usually the WW becomes completely emotionally consumed with the OM. 

I’ve read threads of WW who admit they are in the same room with the kids but their mind and heart are with the OM. Sometimes the kids are picking up on it but most times, they just accept that mommy’s just not as much fun anymore and they make an adjustment. The kids sometimes do not adjust well and you see the results in them acting out or performing poorly in school, or if they’re older, becoming involved in drugs, crime , or promiscuity. 

Sadly with all of the negative evidence, we still have quite a few people who will make excuses because of course, all that matters is that a person be happy.


----------



## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> The cheater doesn't just cheat on the spouse, they cheat on the family.


^^^^This. 100% The cheater takes what was a stable family unit (not perfect, nothing is, but a family unit that at least has a hope of remaining intact) and blows it up. For what? Infidelity is a core wound to a monogamous marriage. And that makes it unique in how it affects the family unit, and thus, parenting. (Even in the case of mad hatters, I think the spouse who fires the first shot--cheats first--is the one who does the most damage. It gives their children a sense that the rug can be pulled out from under them by those they trust most, without provocation or warning.)

My own father did this. He stressed that personal happiness was what mattered most. Whose happiness? His at the expense of ours? Then he didn't even stay with his mistress. He eventually apologized, said all the correct things. (Yeah, some cheaters are really good at that.) My parents went on to have a rocky off and on marriage.

I do believe that if a cheater actually does the work, their kids can learn from their mistakes. But this takes tremendous growth, character, personal responsibility, and WORK. There are too many people that pretend to do the work, but it's surface-level deep.

The thing is, kids see your actions. You attitudes. They see if you have ACTUALLY changed or grown, or if you know the right things to say and do while remaining unchanged at your core. Like @QuietRiot said, they KNOW. And when cheaters don't have to suffer any real consequences, they don't tend to change. If they maintain ultimate control of whether or not the marriage continues....because usually, if the betrayed spouse is not willing to say, "This marriage is dead. You killed it," or AT LEAST hold the wayward accountable to actually demonstrate that change...the cheaters don't change at their core. Once in a great while you get a unicorn who is motivated to fix their mess all on their own, but that's not the norm. And you can identity those former waywards by their utter humility, their lack of casting blame, and their inner strength that stops needing validation for doing the kinds of things they should have been doing all along. Their understanding that when it comes to their betrayed spouse and children, they aren't owed any of their life back the way it was.

I think if my father had humbled himself (not done the lip service and the pretending he understood what he'd done) I would not have carried issues into my marriage as a result of his selfish choices. As an adult, it's my responsibility to fix any issues and heal wounds left by him, but that is a part of the legacy he left me. It has affected our relationship as I am an adult--his failure to deal with his issues--and it affects his relationship with his grandkids. (I shielded them from all of that for as long as possible. They eventually figured it out all on their own!) I know it has had a ripple effect even on the way I parent. My anxiety.

I'm in grad school, so I was curious about infidelity research. Benjamin Warrach et. al. state in their article _Are Cheaters Sexual Hypocrites? Sexual Hypocrisy, The Self-Serving Bias, and Personality Style, "we found that sexual infidelity perpetrators (a) blamed their primary dyadic partners (i.e., victims) for infidelities significantly more than those victims blamed themselves for such infidelities, (b) blamed the surrounding circumstances for infidelities significantly more than their victims did, and (c) rated the emotional impact of infidelities on their victims as significantly less than victims’ ratings of such impact. Moreover, we found that participants with prior experience as both sexual infidelity perpetrators and victims displayed “sexual hypocrisy” by judging others more harshly than themselves for sexually unfaithful behavior. Our findings demonstrate that personality variables associated with sexual infidelity (narcissism, sexual narcissism, avoidant attachment, and primary psychopathy) are also relevant to self-serving attributions in the sexual infidelity context." _

(That's from their abstract, so it's kosher for me to post.)

When these attitudes are still there, underlying, covered up but not truly eradicated, does it affect the children of said people? ABSOLUTELY. There are all manner of bad parents out there. But that's not the point of this post. A parent that loves themselves so much that they jeopardize their child's in-tact home for ego kibbles and sexual pleasure? Or who blows up their marriage instead of trying to fix it, by separating and going through all of the possible honorable channels to make it work, thus serving as an example to their children of how to deal with life's adversity?

No. That is NOT a great parent.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

MattMatt said:


> And some faithful people are awful parents.


Absolutely agree, just like many bad marriages have zero infidelity, even extremely absusive ones. I don’t think being a good parent is dependent on the state of the marriage, but I do believe the type of mentality and thinking in which a cheater immerses themselves can’t possibly leave their ability to parent unaffected.




Diana7 said:


> Most people arent all bad and can be a loving parent while doing bad things elsewhere.





ElwoodPDowd said:


> You think people can't meet for sex when the kids are at school?


This to me is faulty thinking. Here is why, this assumes people and families are pieces of a pie, all separate little pieces that add up to a whole. We can take a slice out and segment it from the others… the other slices are still there and unaffected. Same with sections of personality which we consider “compartmentalizing”, which unless you are a sociopath you cannot do very well. Maybe people think they can, but I don’t think it’s possible.

Families are not segmented pieces of themselves, they are not each piece, each emotion, each person of the equation makes a “whole”. No, people and family are synergistic. All the parts are integrated, affected and influenced by the others. The compilation of the whole working component is much greater than the sum of all the pieces. A well functioning family can overcome mountains. A person cannot separate their morality and mental construct from every other area of their life and be a healthy person. Hence my argument, yeah you can do it in your off time, but you’re affecting your children, your spouse, and yourself, perverting every relationship within, every emotion.

Now I’m going even further to say, if you stop cheating and still have the cheaters mentality, that still makes you a poor parent. Perhaps less overtly destructive than actively betraying your family, but damaging none the less. 

There are a 100 thousand reasons a person can be a poor parent, I’m working on my weak spots every single day. I’m getting help to overcome my weak spots because my children are more important than anything to me.







Cici1990 said:


> ...


I haven’t spoken in Morse Code since the 2nd World War. I don’t understand your sentiment here.


----------



## Cici1990 (Feb 22, 2021)

I guess it was the equivalent of 😶

I’m just not going to say a word lest I dig myself into a hole on this one. But I am interested in the responses for sure.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Those articles were an eye-opener, thank you, I have to say it explains a lot of my life.

I won't rehash what's already been said but give a personal reference. I grew up in a country where infidelity was and still is part of the acceptable culture. It is not uncommon for half-siblings to discover each other's existence at funerals. Traditionally, it was men who dominated this, but women are catching up real fast these days. Maybe they figure if they're going to get screwed over, might as well do it too, I don't know.

My father was a serial cheat, he was married at least 3 times I know of. We became estranged when he focused all his attentions on his new wife and family (she was pregnant when he asked my mom for a divorce). My mom did her best to shield me from what he did, she never spoke ill of him, never prevented me from seeing him. He prioritized his "new family" over me. I met my half-siblings once when I was about 14, he tried to drop them off for my mom to babysit (delusional, selfish )

I realized who he was right then, everything was always about him, for his comfort, his ease, his happiness. I never spoke to him again, I passed him straight when I saw him in public once, but my mom made me stop to say hello. The only time his family reached out to me afterward was when he was dying in the hospital later. They were looking for a kidney for him... I guess his 3 other children weren't a match. He never once apologized to me for his ****ty treatment over the years, much less my mother. So I never went to see him and he died without another word spoken between us.

I refused to marry within my own culture trying avoid infidelity, yet, I married an affair baby of two married APs. I didn't discover that gem until a few years later when his mother blurted it out at dinner. Over the years I pieced together bits here and there. My exH hated both of his parents, I actually helped repair their relationship, b/c I didn't want him to regret it later on. 

His mother is a lifelong alcoholic, very narcissistic, always worried about appearances, super vain. The woman has had all kinds of cosmetic surgery over the years. She has very good skin, but she ain't fooling anyone. I remember she threw a fit at a restaurant once, b/c a president she hated was on TV, and she couldn't just look away. No, everyone had to kowtow to what she wanted, it was so embarrassing to be there. I heard the comments from others nearby. We stopped going out in public with her after that. Honestly, I was surprised her husband wasn't an alcoholic, she's definitely the kind of person to drive people to drink if they have to be near her. Her own daughter told me to move far away from her, it's what she did to get away. 

Anyway, my exH started out vowing never to be like either of his parents. As far as I knew, he was a truly decent person, people thought well of him. Maybe I was blind and he just talked a good game, who knows? I had no idea he was a functional alcoholic, he did have strange rages, but he was never violent to me, we had unsecured guns in the house, but I was never afraid of him. He drank 2L of Vodka almost daily, before, during, after work. I felt sick to my stomach when I found out, especially since he could have killed someone! Anyway, you all know my story with him...

I tried to do everything "right", but history repeated itself anyway, I don't really know what else to think. Another poster on another thread coined a phrase "Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving".


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> ^^^^This. 100% The cheater takes what was a stable family unit (not perfect, nothing is, but a family unit that at least has a hope of remaining intact) and blows it up. For what? Infidelity is a core wound to a monogamous marriage. And that makes it unique in how it affects the family unit, and thus, parenting. (Even in the case of mad hatters, I think the spouse who fires the first shot--cheats first--is the one who does the most damage. It gives their children a sense that the rug can be pulled out from under them by those they trust most, without provocation or warning.)
> 
> My own father did this. He stressed that personal happiness was what mattered most. Whose happiness? His at the expense of ours? Then he didn't even stay with his mistress. He eventually apologized, said all the correct things. (Yeah, some cheaters are really good at that.) My parents went on to have a rocky off and on marriage.
> 
> ...


That abstract says a pretty mouthful. I read it and said yep, yep, yep…

It’s a mindset… deeply engrained. We have people here who have worked extremely hard over YEARS and really are, I believe the epitome of the unicorns of cheaters. Honestly they are now former cheaters in every sense of the word. It’s what we all wish our WS would aspire to be. (I still wish that, not for reconciliation but because I see a huge parenting issue every single day.) But most never get vulnerable and work hard or long enough to confront themselves to get there. Because deep down, they’d rather soothe the fragile ego than change and let themselves be less than in other peoples eyes, and work on being enough in their own eyes. That’s what I see.

And the mindset of “I need others to bring me happiness”, “I need attention and adoration at all times.” And “Why can’t I be happy, where is my happiness and why aren’t people giving me enough.”, creates a cascade of actions just like you’re indicating. It’s no secret that searching for attention and validation outside of themselves is a huge problem. A lot of people like this pass that need to their children and make it their kids job to provide it. Perhaps it’s narcissistic qualities engrained in the cheater? I don’t know.

Perhaps people are also hesitant to post on my thread to argue the points because people are afraid to trigger me, or offend me. I assure you all, I am not going to be offended or triggered, (unless you are my WH’s AP, you can’t possibly trigger me). I’m genuinely interested in others perspectives and I realize my opinion is just that… opinions are like butt holes, everyone’s got one - or however the saying goes.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> I’ve been pondering lately, since I’ve had ample time to do so being on my own...my life and family ruined by a cheater (albeit temporarily as I will recover and build anew), I have come to ponder two really important questions relevant to my life: Does a person who finds the ability to cheat, who lacks the morals and self control to stay faithful, have the ability to be a great parent? Is a person who allows themselves to become so morally bankrupt--to pervert themselves and their values with an affair--able to be a great parent without serious intervention? So far I know the answer to my own question, but I think it’s important to discuss. And I’m interested in others viewpoints.
> 
> 
> Notice that I don’t even mention the impossible option that a person who is a cheater can concurrently be a great parent. Not even entertaining this argument. Subpar parenting is not in my book GREAT parenting. GREAT parenting cannot coexist with a person who lies, betrays and deceives one's family and self and diverts their attention and resources outside the family.
> ...


From what I have witnessed, not just in my life, but in other friends and family members who dealt with infidelity, their children suffered.

Even without infidelity, splitting kids between 2 households is rough, the ball gets dropped somewhere, especially when one or both parents form another family unit with a 3rd party. I didn't know why my parents split at first, they tried to shield me and I internalized it. Well, my mom did anyway, my father tried to push his AP on me as my stepmother. 

My mom never remarried, and like MGTOW, went her own way. She had no use for men after my father, so the only close marriage that influenced me was my grandparents'. They were each other's one and only and loved each other their entire lives, they were a real team. 

I grew up withdrawn, ragey, to the point of being destructive. It took me years to get my anger under control, I used to be something of a pyromaniac. Somehow it didn't affect my ability to socialize, I had as many friends as I wanted, even though I was a loner and still am but a social chameleon when I want to be. However, I am self-aware enough to recognize my damage and chose never to have children to break the cycle. I don't think emotionally damaged people should have children. No matter how much you try, it seeps out. 

While my mom never volunteered information, she answered me honestly and age-appropriately when I asked questions, no bullshitting. Have you taken the kids for therapy? Maybe that might help. In my day, that was not available and I had to DIY unfuck myself as well as I could.

This is totally me...

88.4% felt angry toward the cheating parent.
62.5% felt ashamed or embarrassed.
80.2% felt that it influenced their attitudes toward love and relationships.
70.5% said their ability to trust others had been affected.
83% stated that they feel people regularly lie.
86% reported they still believe in monogamy.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> Now I’m going even further to say, if you stop cheating and still have the cheaters mentality, that still makes you a poor parent. Perhaps less overtly destructive than actively betraying your family, but damaging none the less.


This is a good point, QR. The overall extreme selfishness and "I am #1 priority" mindset would have to go. Cheap thrills and orgasms aren't more important than the kids. They have to become the #1 priority in the parents' lives. This doesn't mean you have to throw away things you enjoy doing, that doesn't mean you don't deserve a break, that doesn't mean you have to be perfect every day, but there is a priority shift that happens. The center of attention has to shift off of one's self to the kids. I can only imagine what it felt like for TXTrini growing up in that situation and feel like second best. That's not fair to the child. I don't know if my mother or father ever cheated on each other, but I do know that my mother put herself first A LOT, yelled a lot at me as kid and then would direct that towards my dad when he got home from work every day. I don't know what was going on in their marriage at the time, but it wasn't good. It deeply affected me to the point that I only see them once or twice a year - and that's only because I have children of my own and I want them to know their grandchildren. They are fine now and those fights don't happen anymore, but I find it laughable that my mother wants to be involved in my life. I don't speak with her unless I have to. I don't tell her anything about my life. She thinks she can waltz in and enjoy my life now but failed miserably for my first 21 years. Sorry. That's not how this works. She's asked me in the past if I will punish her for her remaining years due to her inability to parent when I was younger. Yep. Probably. 

If I ever discovered one of my parents cheated on the other, that would be immediate no contact with the cheater. That'd be it for me. No forgiveness for said offending parent. Wouldn't matter if it happened 30-40 years ago or not. I don't care how good of compartmentalizing some cheaters can accomplish (and amittedly, some can get to a scary level of caring so little about their spouse and kids that they don't bring home too much), they still bring home at least some of that baggage. Maybe the spouse doesn't feel like there is something "off", but I bet the kids do.


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

jsmart said:


> Another major characteristic of what takes place in an affair is the emotional distance it causes. I think WWs tend to suffer from this even more than do WHs. Usually the WW becomes completely emotionally consumed with the OM.
> 
> I’ve read threads of WW who admit they are in the same room with the kids but their mind and heart are with the OM. Sometimes the kids are picking up on it but most times, they just accept that mommy’s just not as much fun anymore and they make an adjustment. The kids sometimes do not adjust well and you see the results in them acting out or performing poorly in school, or if they’re older, becoming involved in drugs, crime , or promiscuity.
> 
> Sadly with all of the negative evidence, we still have quite a few people who will make excuses because of course, all that matters is that a person be happy.


When my dad had the hots for some side piece… we had to spend school holidays every day at her house, where she lived with her mum. Imagine 3 active primary school children, sitting for hours in a lounge room with an old lady, her daughter and creepy father. So there were no fun times at the park or going to the movies or even doing normal things kids do on school holidays. This happened while my mum was at work.

Then sometimes my mum would take me to work with her and I’d get to see this man staring at her a lot and she was extra rude and angry to us at home and especially at work - she would almost act like I wasn’t there when said man was around. Then on Saturday night, my auntie would come over while my dad was out, and I’d get to hear my mum talk all about him for hours. Juicy gossip for a 10-year old 😕


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Luckylucky said:


> When my dad had the hots for some side piece… we had to spend school holidays every day at her house, where she lived with her mum. Imagine 3 active primary school children, sitting for hours in a lounge room with an old lady, her daughter and creepy father. So there were no fun times at the park or going to the movies or even doing normal things kids do on school holidays. This happened while my mum was at work.
> 
> Then sometimes my mum would take me to work with her and I’d get to see this man staring at her a lot and she was extra rude and angry to us at home and especially at work - she would almost act like I wasn’t there when said man was around. Then on Saturday night, my auntie would come over while my dad was out, and I’d get to hear my mum talk all about him for hours. Juicy gossip for a 10-year old 😕


Oh Lucky, your posts made me very sad. Please feel free to not answer this question, but I wondered after reading your comments on other threads... I don't remember all the details, so forgive me if I'm off here, but, do you think this may have influenced you a bit when you ended up being the OW at times? I can't remember if you knew/not, or how quickly it ended/didn't when you found out.


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

I would like to say it didn’t influence me, but it must have, I don’t want to make excuses but I was young.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Luckylucky said:


> I would like to say it didn’t influence me, but it must have, I don’t want to make excuses but I was young. One was a best friend in a relationship, and in the other situation I didn’t know he was at the end of a marriage but also seeing his future wife. (I found out about this years later but my reasons for ending it were different). I will definitely say that on some level I was avoiding real intimacy by picking men who were not going to commit to me, or felt safe - they have someone at home, but they’re putting me first! That was my mindset, isn’t that terrible and horrible?
> 
> And I’m going to say that I did also attract a lot of married mens’ attention and it was an ego boost. It was pathetic ‘I’m so special that they go home and all they think about it me’. That shocks me still that I felt this way. All about me, and no regard for anyone else. I used the men in a way too, no regard for them except for what I was getting. It’s a selfish and nasty way of being.
> 
> ...


Wow, this is so insightful. Hello unicorn.

How long did it take you to fully realize the patterns and behaviors and then put in the work to change?


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I love this.

_This Be The Verse _(_Philip Larkin_)

_They **** you up, your mum and dad
They may not mean to but they do
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra just for you

But they were ****ed up in their turn
By fools in old style hats and coats
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at each other’s throats

Man hands on misery to man
It deepens like a coastal shelf
Get out as early as you can
And don’t have any kids yourself_


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> Wow, this is so insightful. Hello unicorn.
> 
> How long did it take you to fully realize the patterns and behaviors and then put in the work to change?



.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Luckylucky said:


> I would like to say it didn’t influence me, but it must have, I don’t want to make excuses but I was young. One was a best friend in a relationship, and in the other situation I didn’t know he was at the end of a marriage but also seeing his future wife. (I found out about this years later but my reasons for ending it were different). I will definitely say that on some level I was avoiding real intimacy by picking men who were not going to commit to me, or felt safe - they have someone at home, but they’re putting me first! That was my mindset, isn’t that terrible and horrible?
> 
> And I’m going to say that I did also attract a lot of married mens’ attention and it was an ego boost. It was pathetic ‘I’m so special that they go home and all they think about it me’. That shocks me still that I felt this way. All about me, and no regard for anyone else. I used the men in a way too, no regard for them except for what I was getting. It’s a selfish and nasty way of being.
> 
> ...


Your reasoning is another perspective I hadn't considered, thank you for sharing. I've spent a lot of time reading the OW/OM Forum on Loveshack out of curiosity. The level of moaning and groaning over MM not leaving their BS for them and how long they took to get over a MM was rather interesting considering they chose it, BSs don't. 

For the record, I was never angry at the OW, she didn't make vows to me. Plus, who knows what lines of BS he fed her, he certainly did to me. It's wonderful that you were self-aware and determined not to let that destroy your life by continuing the cycle your parents started. 

I noticed most cheaters I knew had a few things in common... a need for external validation not from their SO, and some degree of self-hatred and insecurity. And yes, all the cheaters I knew of ended up dying alone estranged from their families once their past sins were uncovered. People avoided them like the plague, broke friendships, generally scurried away before the taint could spread. 

My father's boss demoted him to some obscure position, b/c he was an embarrassment to the company. They didn't fire him outright, b/c he helped build the business. My exFIL and MIL were terrified someone would report them to the medical board, they'd have both been fired. My exMIL actually left her eldest daughter with her Bipolar bio-dad to nab her doctor AP and promptly had 3 children to force his hand. 

So, this is why I laugh at people who say a cheater can be a great parent, b/c they compartmentalize a lot, or that prominent people are great leaders but ****ty parents. That sounds like shame and cover your ass talk, completely disingenuous. If cheating is not a mirror of one's true nature and character, why then is it always done in the dark and covered up by lies upon lies?


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I love this.
> 
> _This Be The Verse _(_Philip Larkin_)
> 
> ...


Ha! My therapist summed that up by saying our parents are the first ones who **** us up. Hmm, I wonder if this is where he got that turn of phrase from, it was rather startling hearing that from a late 70's man


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

One of our most respected prime Ministers, Bob Hawke, left his wife and three kids for his mistress. Openly. He died recently, but during his time, his kids were a mess, his ex wife very quietly lived out her life with dignity until her death. He was a raging alcoholic and a horrible husband and father. But he was the best Prime Minister, and all of this was overlooked.

The poor daughter was a heroin addict during his term, and after his death was only able to come forward and say she was raped by a politician, went to her father, and was told he wasn’t going to help her, he couldn’t.

It’s only now that we’re able to say what a bad man he was. So while a cheater may excel and achieve great things, they are the greatest losers in the end. Be nice to your family indoors when nobody’s watching, and let everyone else spit on your grave and say what a bad person you were. That’s my two cents.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> Ha! My therapist summed that up by saying our parents are the first ones who **** us up. Hmm, I wonder if this is where he got that turn of phrase from, it was rather startling hearing that from a late 70's man


I think that UK poem was written around the 1970’s so maybe your therapist read it too. I love it. It always makes me laugh (in a cynical way) at the truth in it. That’s certainly where my problems started.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Luckylucky said:


> One of our most respected prime Ministers, Bob Hawke, left his wife and three kids for his mistress. Openly. He died recently, but during his time, his kids were a mess, his ex wife very quietly lived out her life with dignity until her death. *He was a raging alcoholic and a horrible husband and father. But he was the best Prime Minister, and all of this was overlooked.*
> 
> The poor daughter was a heroin addict during his term, and after his death was only able to come forward and say she was raped by a politician, went to her father, and was told he wasn’t going to help her, he couldn’t.
> 
> ...


This kind of acceptance is why infidelity will always exist. We trade our principles and humanity for security and comfort.

I came across an article once I thought was hyperbolic, the gist was civilizations are built on blood. It got me to thinking about everything we make allowances for to justify the benefits, this is no different. It got to the point where I don't want to study history much, b/c pretty much every great man turns out to be an asshole


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> This is a good point, QR. The overall extreme selfishness and "I am #1 priority" mindset would have to go. Cheap thrills and orgasms aren't more important than the kids. They have to become the #1 priority in the parents' lives. This doesn't mean you have to throw away things you enjoy doing, that doesn't mean you don't deserve a break, that doesn't mean you have to be perfect every day, but there is a priority shift that happens. The center of attention has to shift off of one's self to the kids. I can only imagine what it felt like for TXTrini growing up in that situation and feel like second best. That's not fair to the child. I don't know if my mother or father ever cheated on each other, but I do know that my mother put herself first A LOT, yelled a lot at me as kid and then would direct that towards my dad when he got home from work every day. I don't know what was going on in their marriage at the time, but it wasn't good. It deeply affected me to the point that I only see them once or twice a year - and that's only because I have children of my own and I want them to know their grandchildren. They are fine now and those fights don't happen anymore, but I find it laughable that my mother wants to be involved in my life. I don't speak with her unless I have to. I don't tell her anything about my life. She thinks she can waltz in and enjoy my life now but failed miserably for my first 21 years. Sorry. That's not how this works. She's asked me in the past if I will punish her for her remaining years due to her inability to parent when I was younger. Yep. Probably.
> 
> If I ever discovered one of my parents cheated on the other, that would be immediate no contact with the cheater. That'd be it for me. No forgiveness for said offending parent. Wouldn't matter if it happened 30-40 years ago or not. I don't care how good of compartmentalizing some cheaters can accomplish (and amittedly, some can get to a scary level of caring so little about their spouse and kids that they don't bring home too much), they still bring home at least some of that baggage. Maybe the spouse doesn't feel like there is something "off", but I bet the kids do.


It wasn't all bad, despite the challenges. My grandparents treated me like their youngest child, so I didn't miss out on love and care at all. My mom worked very hard and traveled a lot (apparently my father was too busy raising his new family, he couldn't pay child support), so our relationship is more sisters than mother and daughter. 

Although it was hard to not exist in his world, I became ok with it once I saw him clearly and realized my anger was not only pointless but only hurting me. I think I got the better end of the deal, actually, I had a loving, stable family. His kids didn't, their mother dumped all of them and ran off pregnant for another man. 

I understand perfectly how you feel. Some people might view that as unforgiving, but you know what? When do YOU get peace? Why do you have to sacrifice yours because your distance makes people uncomfortable, even though it's a direct result of what THEY did. You reap what you sow.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Luckylucky said:


> Flattery is really very useless you know? How do you parent when you lose your head over some feels? Especially parents of teens; really imagine a mother with teen girls out at a wedding, say, and she’s competing for looks? Enjoying being called their sister? 🙄


I find flattery useless, and even more, suspect. Much like the way I feel about door to door sales people. They’re both selling something.

It’s funny you say this. I have met soooo many middle aged moms that find a way to bring this up at every possible time they can. “Oh I get complimented ALL the time about how I look like her sister not her mom! Giggle giggle.” As the teenager looks grossed out because she has to hear the story for the 80th time.


----------



## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Why would you let your children know you have sex outside (or even inside) the marriage?
Sex is private and between the two people having the sex.
Your children don't need to know what you do in the bedroom.

Although you should always DNA test your children, just to be sure.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Why would you let your children know you have sex outside (or even inside) the marriage?
> Sex is private and between the two people having the sex.
> Your children don't need to know what you do in the bedroom.
> 
> Although you should always DNA test your children, just to be sure.


I can see why you needed to buy a poor village girl from Thailand.


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

In a family unit, the love and trust of spouses are paramount to the stability and functioning of that family. Cheating utterly annihilates the trust and love in the family unit.

Adulterers are not stable themselves, but their callous actions causes lasting damage to the faithful spouse which in turn causes that spouse to invariably and involuntarily disinvest from the family. 

Not only do cheaters directly cause harm to children, but the damage they wreak on their spouse and the annihilation of the stability of the family unit causes irreparable harm to the children. No person in an active affair can be considered a parent at all, since they are motivated purely by selfishness and parenting by it's nature is a selfless act.

Even years after an affair has ceased, the damage to children can be severe as they have the dubious honor of having a cheater as a parent. The social stigma is real and persists. The children, innocent as they are can not escape this stigma.

Then there is the question of character. Be it genetic or environmental, children of an adulterer has those influences which gives them a higher than average predilection to become adulterous themselves, but this trait could be mitigated if removed from the influence of the adulterous person and shown that adultery has real consequences. Children of an adulterous parent who are taught by example that adultery wrecks lives and futures for generations may indeed be done a favor by having ties severed to the adulterous parent because this could very well break the link in the chain that could have lead to their own future adultery.


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Here is the thing......

Kids are inherently selfish,,,They have to be and that's what they need to be.....All animals are the same...Their only concern is survival and what's best for them, as they lack the tools to do it on their own...The ability to reason and understand how all of these things work won't happen until much later on....

I'd go out on a limb and say that infidelity wouldn't fall that high on the list of what can _really _ruin a child's life....Abuse, neglect, malnourishment, violence, alcohol and substance abuse, etc.. are all way higher...

My parents never cheated on another, but my dad barely worked and we were so poor, that every day brought another challenge,....What services were going to be cut off this day? Electric? Gas??....No food in the refrigerator or merely scraps...Do you think any one of us kids would have cared if one of our parents was out getting it from someone else, if all those other aspects were in order?? Nope...

Or let's flip the script here...

Let's say that one spouse withheld sex from the other.....But no one cheated....The resentment so huge you can cut it with a knife...You think kids want to see parents in that situation??

Or let's say there was no infidelity, but the parents divorced and one or both are now screwing someone else...You think kids process it any differently, because the end result is exactly the same...they are now effing someone else...

Soo....please, I think some need to not let personal pain cloud their realities.....Getting cheated on sucks, but so does a lot of other things...including a lot of what i mentioned...ALL kids surely would love to have a Shangri La household with two loving and devoted parents, but its more likely than not, that it wont happen...The truth is a parent could in fact be a pretty good parent and still be unfaithful to their spouse....just like a parent could be faithful and be an absolutely horrible parent....Normally, the feeling and sense of duty or responsibility a parent has for a child has absolutely nothing to do with any feeling or loss of interest(sexual or otherwise)...in a spouse...


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

“…but she’s such a good mom.”

Sure, except that the behavior she’s engaged in has a very high probability to irrevocably nuke her children’s family unit.

And she _knows_ it.

Suuuuure…


----------



## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> *Can people with cheater mentality ever be good parents?*


Well, tough question. There are 2 parts to this answer, IMO.

1) Yes, they can be, at least on the surface as far as the kids see and they can commit to being good parents.

BUT

2) If they were good parents in the first place, they wouldn't have done something to risk the kids happiness. I fully believe when you cheat on the other parent, you cheat on the kids.
And if you cheat then you risk uprooting their lives and happiness.

So for me the answer is yes and no......but I lean more towards no.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

My ex-husband was/is a serial cheater. He can be a very fun dad. However, he entirely lacks the capacity to be a strong, stable, self-sacrificing, parent. The wee-hour feedings, the sitting up with a sick kid, the taking time out of your schedule for doctors' appointments or little-league games, the having to pay attention when you'd rather be doing something else, the missing out on something fun you want to do in favor of attending your child's awards night at school, the offering of empathy or sympathy when your child reacts to something that maybe you'd react to differently, the disciplining of your child even if that child sulks because you're "being mean"? Those things just aren't in him. He wants to interact with his son when he wants to, on his terms, and only for so long as nothing more to his liking comes along, and always as the "fun" one. He is so self-focused that it honestly just doesn't really occur to him to think of other people's needs, and certainly not to consider anyone else's needs before his own wants. 

That's not a recipe for great parenting. And he hasn't been a great parent. He's been mostly an absent parent, even when he's physically present, interspersed with periods of hyper-focused engagement in "fun" or "family focused" activities that on closer inspection are mostly based on personal image-building for him. Great parenting requires a degree of giving and self-sacrifice that he just doesn't have in him. 

But, the poor parenting isn't a product of his cheating mindset. The cheating mindset _and_ the poor parenting are both the_ result_ of his incredible self-centeredness.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Rowan said:


> But, the poor parenting isn't a product of his cheating mindset. The cheating mindset _and_ the poor parenting are both the_ result_ of his* incredible self-centeredness.*


I think this is what QR was trying to get at with her original post on this subject (assuming I understood her correctly). I think you make a good point, Rowan. I think you are saying the same thing but just in a different way. I think the cheating mindset IS the incredible self-centeredness. If one stays in that mindset, then being a good parent is not high on the priority list of things to do.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Here is the thing......
> 
> Kids are inherently selfish,,,They have to be and that's what they need to be.....All animals are the same...Their only concern is survival and what's best for them, as they lack the tools to do it on their own...The ability to reason and understand how all of these things work won't happen until much later on....
> 
> ...


That’s one viewpoint, I guess I can see where you’re coming from. I will argue that personal pain is not clouding my judgement, actions of a cheater have reaped consequences on all of us that I see in action. There is very little cloudy judgement going on here.

I don’t see how saying that because beating a kid is “more” damaging, that betrayal and infidelity which is proven to damage children is then not so bad… that doesn’t really seem like a reasonable argument to me.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

QuietRiot said:


> That’s one viewpoint, I guess I can see where you’re coming from. I will argue that personal pain is not clouding my judgement, actions of a cheater have reaped consequences on all of us that I see in action. There is very little cloudy judgement going on here.
> 
> I don’t see how saying that because beating a kid is “more” damaging, that betrayal and infidelity which is proven to damage children is then not so bad… that doesn’t really seem like a reasonable argument to me.











What Research Tells Us About the Effect of Divorce on Children


Statistics about children of divorce reveal the serious impact it can have even when it's the right choice for the family. Learn what research reveals.




www.verywellfamily.com


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

GusPolinski said:


> What Research Tells Us About the Effect of Divorce on Children
> 
> 
> Statistics about children of divorce reveal the serious impact it can have even when it's the right choice for the family. Learn what research reveals.
> ...


This was pretty informative, thank you. I think it’s interesting that it clearly states if your home was filled with constant acrimony, divorce is actually better. But also much greater outcomes form divorce happen when there is peaceful cooperation and coparenting. Lol, most people get even nastier when divorcing.

I am glad that in my case there is no fighting or speaking badly of or to one another, but I’m also very committed to not making this any more dysfunctional than it already is. It’s still a rough spot to navigate with the kids and have the hard discussions numberous times. Especially when the other parent is a feeling stuffer, so I get to have all the hard conversations on my own. I see a lot of similarities with @Rowan situation.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

NO......I the have...present tense cheater mentality. To me it is in same boat as a sex offender or robbery suspect. What are they teaching their children with their actions.

If it was past and they have seen the error of their ways...yes.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

QuietRiot said:


> This was pretty informative, thank you. I think it’s interesting that it clearly states if your home was filled with constant acrimony, divorce is actually better. But also much greater outcomes form divorce happen when there is peaceful cooperation and coparenting. Lol, most people get even nastier when divorcing.
> 
> I am glad that in my case there is no fighting or speaking badly of or to one another, but *I’m also very committed to not making this any more dysfunctional than it already is. It’s still a rough spot to navigate with the kids and have the hard discussions numberous times. Especially when the other parent is a feeling stuffer, so I get to have all the hard conversations on my own.* I see a lot of similarities with @Rowan situation.


It’s great to have these stats in hand, but you have to stop and think about WHY things turn out the way that they do — it’s because people don’t talk about this stuff with their kids. They don’t talk them through the process, help them to work through and navigate their emotions, work to make them understand why it’s happening, etc.

Kids aren’t stupid — they know when something’s off, even if they don’t understand WHY. They don’t get that Mom is standing up for herself because Dad has repeatedly done some ****ty, inconsiderate things and has shown no interest in either stopping or at least being honest about it. They don’t understand that there HAVE to be consequences when Dad has been given multiple opportunities to change and has instead chosen to spit on all of them. They don’t understand that a big part of the reason that Mom is standing up for herself is because she’s attempting to show them that they shouldn’t accept ****ty behavior from ****ty people.

…all of which is to say —

Good job, Mom. 👍🏻


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

GusPolinski said:


> It’s great to have these stats in hand, but you have to stop and think about WHY things turn out the way that they do — it’s because people don’t talk about this stuff with their kids. They don’t talk them through the process, help them to work through and navigate their emotions, work to make them understand why it’s happening, etc.
> 
> Kids aren’t stupid — they know when something’s off, even if they don’t understand WHY. They don’t get that Mom is standing up for herself because Dad has repeatedly done some ****ty, inconsiderate things and has shown no interest in either stopping or at least being honest about it. They don’t understand that there HAVE to be consequences when Dad has been given multiple opportunities to change and has instead chosen to spit on all of them. They don’t understand that a big part of the reason that Mom is standing up for herself is because she’s attempting to show them that they shouldn’t accept ****ty behavior from ****ty people.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it better myself. Spot on, sir.


----------



## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Rowan said:


> But, the poor parenting isn't a product of his cheating mindset. The cheating mindset _and_ the poor parenting are both the_ result_ of his incredible self-centeredness.


Yes, and ironically, that self-centeredness is the thing that keeps them from doing the deep digging within themselves to figure out what's broken and fix it. Instead, they look for quick fixes, external validation, places to lay blame, and often ego kibbles for their physical appearance or sex appeal. (That last one @Luckylucky alluded to. I can't tell you how refreshing is to read how you were able to recognize this and break that cycle for your children, LL.) 

A big sign that a cheater is truly turning a corner is when they stop looking for this external validation and quit finding the faults in their betrayed partner, imagined and even real. They take responsibility for themselves and what they have control over. Often, this doesn't happen unless they lose the position of power when it comes to the future of the relationship. It almost never seems to happen when the betrayed partner wants them back and is willing to rugsweep.

And yep, lots of people are broken, but doing something that completely ruins the marriage and family unit creates a turning point from which everything devolves. It destroys the potential for the individuals and family to improve.

I hope if anyone out there reading this is on the cusp of an affair that they'll carefully think through everything that's been said. The idea that "my infidelity has nothing to do with my children" is pure and dangerous fiction.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

They could be an overall good parent, but who is tainted by being too sex-centric, which can over sexualize a child, or by the child finding out and having to rationalize why that type of cheating, lying, and betrayal is ok. Which they usually do by imitating at some point. Kids aren't stupid. And they're sponges.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Then there is the question of character. Be it genetic or environmental, children of an adulterer has those influences which gives them a higher than average predilection to become adulterous themselves, but this trait could be mitigated if removed from the influence of the adulterous person and shown that adultery has real consequences. Children of an adulterous parent who are taught by example that adultery wrecks lives and futures for generations may indeed be done a favor by having ties severed to the adulterous parent because this could very well break the link in the chain that could have lead to their own future adultery.


^^^
I wish I'd know this, and known the gory details of my exH's family, I would NEVER have married him. He knew my story from the getgo, that cheating was the worst thing he could do to me b/c my father nearly destroyed me.

The pain wasn't the dangerous part, for me, it's the anger. When I was a child, the anger nearly forged me into a bitter, unforgiving little **** who kept lashing out against everyone and myself. Severing contact from him and not seeing him give everyone else but me his best efforts and charm and the gentle patience and care from my mom and grandparents helped me through some of the most difficult times of my life.


hamadryad said:


> Here is the thing......
> 
> Kids are inherently selfish,,,They have to be and that's what they need to be.....All animals are the same...Their only concern is survival and what's best for them, as they lack the tools to do it on their own...The ability to reason and understand how all of these things work won't happen until much later on....
> 
> ...


Personal pain clouds everyone's realities, but that's part of the human experience. Yours is certainly coming through, but I'm not questioning your impartiality. It's not about the act of screwing someone else, if that's all it is, then the cheater can go their way and do whatever the heck they want. 

Divorce is already bad enough regardless of the reason, but in other situations, the cause for divorce is usually very obvious and the destruction of the family unit is not sudden. It's even worse if reconciliation happens, then on top of all the usual problems, you have to deal with very complicated feelings for your parents. I don't even think it's only about the cheater, but also how the betrayed parent handles it. I know for me, my mom's strength and determination were an inspiration and shaped my attitudes about life in general. So did my father's, but more in things I never wanted for myself or to do to others. There's NO way I wanted to be involved in any way hurting another person the way his actions did. 

I agree that kids are selfish and prize the stability of their little world, but consider this, kids do not remain kids forever. We grow up and are a product of our environment. It takes a strong act of will of intervention from others to change the trajectory of an emotionally damaged child's path, regardless of how the damage occurs. A parent's ONE job is to raise their children to be decent human beings. If survival is your benchmark of a successful family, then we can never rise above our animal instinct and quite frankly don't deserve to survive as a species.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> I find flattery useless, and even more, suspect. Much like the way I feel about door to door sales people. They’re both selling something.
> 
> It’s funny you say this. I have met soooo many middle aged moms that find a way to bring this up at every possible time they can. “Oh I get complimented ALL the time about how I look like her sister not her mom! Giggle giggle.” As the teenager looks grossed out because she has to hear the story for the 80th time.


Ha, flattery rubs me the wrong way, especially if it's about something completely superficial. I'd automatically think, "What do you want?" and prepare myself to hear something unpleasant. I've been propositioned by a lot of married men, since I was a frigging teenager, including older family friends.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> It’s great to have these stats in hand, but you have to stop and think about WHY things turn out the way that they do — it’s because people don’t talk about this stuff with their kids. They don’t talk them through the process, help them to work through and navigate their emotions, work to make them understand why it’s happening, etc.
> 
> Kids aren’t stupid — they know when something’s off, even if they don’t understand WHY. They don’t get that Mom is standing up for herself because Dad has repeatedly done some ****ty, inconsiderate things and has shown no interest in either stopping or at least being honest about it. They don’t understand that there HAVE to be consequences when Dad has been given multiple opportunities to change and has instead chosen to spit on all of them. They don’t understand that a big part of the reason that Mom is standing up for herself is because she’s attempting to show them that they shouldn’t accept ****ty behavior from ****ty people.
> 
> ...


This! People forget sometimes that children are tiny humans in training. It's the same principle as exposing them to languages and sciences and music, because that helps accelerate learning. Why then is talking about real issues, things they will face daily so hard?

I will always be grateful for my mom for telling me hard truths in an age-appropriate way, she never tried to shield me from the realities of life, whether it was from my father's crap or daily existence. I learned about responsibility, bills, budgets, what it takes to making a living and care for others at a very young age. 

The only thing I can think of is maybe it's too hard to keep a brave front while trying to explain things to a child appropriately when you are still reeling with trying to accept and recover yourself.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> Yes, and ironically, that self-centeredness is the thing that keeps them from doing the deep digging within themselves to figure out what's broken and fix it. Instead, they look for quick fixes, external validation, places to lay blame, and often ego kibbles for their physical appearance or sex appeal. (That last one @Luckylucky alluded to. I can't tell you how refreshing is to read how you were able to recognize this and break that cycle for your children, LL.)
> 
> *A big sign that a cheater is truly turning a corner is when they stop looking for this external validation and quit finding the faults in their betrayed partner, imagined and even real. They take responsibility for themselves and what they have control over. Often, this doesn't happen unless they lose the position of power when it comes to the future of the relationship. It almost never seems to happen when the betrayed partner wants them back and is willing to rugsweep.*
> 
> ...


^^^
The only reformed cheater I've ever met and respected thus far is @ Affaircare (that I know of! I'm not the affair police, so don't get butthurt if I don't pat you on the back), she GETS this. 

Other cheaters I've seen on here still exhibit the need for approval or extreme self-centeredness when they apparently have more pressing things to worry about. You just know, they don't really want to change deep down and will keep on keeping on and repeat the cycle with their kids because it's all they've known. I think that's sad.

So far, I've never heard someone say their childhood or life was perfect, so I don't know that any person escapes this world unbroken to some degree. I do know for a fact that some people with seemingly perfect lives are only pretending, outsiders see what they want them to see. I've also seen people who had very hard lives become the brightest, most loving compassionate people instead of being just like their family, it's a true inspiration.


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Here is the thing......
> 
> Kids are inherently selfish,,,They have to be and that's what they need to be.....All animals are the same...Their only concern is survival and what's best for them, as they lack the tools to do it on their own...The ability to reason and understand how all of these things work won't happen until much later on....
> 
> ...


Did you/are you cheating? Have kids?


----------



## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

TXTrini said:


> Divorce is already bad enough regardless of the reason, but in other situations, the cause for divorce is usually very obvious and the destruction of the family unit is not sudden. It's even worse if reconciliation happens, then on top of all the usual problems, you have to deal with very complicated feelings for your parents. I don't even think it's only about the cheater, but also how the betrayed parent handles it. I know for me, my mom's strength and determination were an inspiration and shaped my attitudes about life in general. So did my father's, but more in things I never wanted for myself or to do to others. There's NO way I wanted to be involved in any way hurting another person the way his actions did.


Your talking about your mom and how she handled it moved me. I was one of the BS who handled it very poorly. Sure my XH was not a good parent for putting his family at risk for his own validation, but I feel I was a worse parent by my reactions. My anger and sadness were on display for my children to see in explosive and unpredictable ways. I put my pain above their emotional security and it is my biggest regret in life. They are now teens and will say that their father’s infidelity has no impact on them, but my reaction to it left long-lasting scars. They didn't trust me with their own failures. That really hurts. And I can’t even say “well if your father hadn’t done…” because plenty of people go through the same thing and control their emotions for their children’s sake. I have to own that I didn’t.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Bluesclues said:


> Your talking about your mom and how she handled it moved me. I was one of the BS who handled it very poorly. Sure my XH was not a good parent for putting his family at risk for his own validation, but I feel I was a worse parent by my reactions. My anger and sadness were on display for my children to see in explosive and unpredictable ways. I put my pain above their emotional security and it is my biggest regret in life. They are now teens and will say that their father’s infidelity has no impact on them, but my reaction to it left long-lasting scars. They didn't trust me with their own failures. That really hurts. And I can’t even say “well if your father hadn’t done…” because plenty of people go through the same thing and control their emotions for their children’s sake. I have to own that I didn’t.


There’s still something they can learn from it —

“That’s the pain brought about by infidelity, kids.

PISD — look it up.”


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Bluesclues said:


> Your talking about your mom and how she handled it moved me. I was one of the BS who handled it very poorly. Sure my XH was not a good parent for putting his family at risk for his own validation, but I feel I was a worse parent by my reactions. My anger and sadness were on display for my children to see in explosive and unpredictable ways. I put my pain above their emotional security and it is my biggest regret in life. They are now teens and will say that their father’s infidelity has no impact on them, but my reaction to it left long-lasting scars. They didn't trust me with their own failures. That really hurts. And I can’t even say “well if your father hadn’t done…” because plenty of people go through the same thing and control their emotions for their children’s sake. I have to own that I didn’t.


Give this time. In all abusive situations (and infidelity is abusive) it is standard that children and teenagers, even young adults will side with the person who blew up the marriage and home life. It is simply too hard for the brain to face the loaded gun. There’s a science to it, it’s innate. Are the Cubs going to side with the Lion ripping apart animals and snarling at the lioness? Or feel sorry for her and challenge the louder, more dangerous person? It rarely happens.

Until much much later, when the perpetrator is in some way weakened, or elderly. Or dead even, then it’s safe. Until this happens, you will bear all the rage and blame and pain. It happens all the time. It’s not their fault. So nothing you do will make it ok! (But you at least take responsibility and feel bad for it, so you’re going to be ok).

My advice to you, would be to make a life for yourself and set your kids free on that path, they’ll be leaving home soon. Don’t hold your breath, but do love them. You will see how the tables will turn when their father is weakened, and when they have children of their own… and their maternal/paternal instincts kick in. If they do.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Bluesclues said:


> Your talking about your mom and how she handled it moved me. I was one of the BS who handled it very poorly. Sure my XH was not a good parent for putting his family at risk for his own validation, but I feel I was a worse parent by my reactions. My anger and sadness were on display for my children to see in explosive and unpredictable ways. I put my pain above their emotional security and it is my biggest regret in life. They are now teens and will say that their father’s infidelity has no impact on them, but my reaction to it left long-lasting scars. They didn't trust me with their own failures. That really hurts. And I can’t even say “well if your father hadn’t done…” because plenty of people go through the same thing and control their emotions for their children’s sake. I have to own that I didn’t.


Don't beat yourself up about it. We all handle things as best we can in any given moment. 

My mom had a lot of time to get used to the situation. She told me he cheated the entire marriage (6 years?) and started to get abusive until she pulled a knife and told him she'd skit his throat the minute he fell asleep if he ever hit her or me. She left him several times but went back. At the time, people didn't get divorced, and she didn't have family support until he asked for one to marry his pregnant wh0re. 

I think the greater the shock, the harder it is to hold yourself together. I was 4 or 5, so I didn't know much until a few years later when I noticed things and asked questions. I understand what you mean about your children, don't take it personally. They're trying to protect you, I grew up very fast and still do that now, it's a conditioned response. 

LIke Gus said, one day when they have to navigate tough times in relationships , especially if the have children, they'll understand.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

GusPolinski said:


> There’s still something they can learn from it —
> 
> “That’s the pain brought about by infidelity, kids.
> 
> PISD — look it up.”


I absolutely hate to try and compare my experiences to PTSD war veterans, because what they experience due to that trauma must be horrific. But I can honestly say, my experience with having my kids as premie babies in the NICU, and my H’s affair, I had/have many symptoms of PTSD. That is interesting that there is now PISD. I’m glad there is a designation honestly. Because they aren’t quite the same. Perhaps my NICU issues are even more similar to PTSD, but the only residual issue I have is hearing those heart monitor and O2 alarms. I just stay away from hospitals as much as I can.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

QuietRiot said:


> *I absolutely hate to try and compare my experiences to PTSD war veterans, because what they experience due to that trauma must be horrific.* But I can honestly say, my experience with having my kids as premie babies in the NICU, and my H’s affair, I had/have many symptoms of PTSD. That is interesting that there is now PISD. I’m glad there is a designation honestly. Because they aren’t quite the same. Perhaps my NICU issues are even more similar to PTSD, but the only residual issue I have is hearing those heart monitor and O2 alarms. I just stay away from hospitals as much as I can.


I get that. And, honestly, the trauma isn’t likely to be as deep or long-lasting.

That said, I’ve read more than a few accounts from combat veterans that came home to discover that their wives had cheated/were cheating, and many of them describe the resultant trauma as being worse than anything they’d experienced as a result of having been in combat.

It’s different for everyone.


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

GusPolinski said:


> I get that. And, honestly, the trauma isn’t likely to be as deep or long-lasting.
> 
> That said, I’ve read more than a few accounts from combat veterans that came home to discover that their wives had cheated/were cheating, and many of them describe the resultant trauma as being worse than anything they’d experienced as a result of having been in combat.
> 
> It’s different for everyone.


As a veteran of both combat and infidelity, I'd take the horror of combat again above the pain of adulterous betrayal. There is one simple truth, combat is indescribably brutal. You live in a fear that transforms into a numbness and see things no-one should ever see or experience, but it's not personal. It's ideologies horrifically clashing.

Infidelity is the most personal pain I have ever suffered. I was betrayed at a core and base animalistic level by the person I trusted the most. The visuals of them together (even if conjured by my mind) was worse than actual mutilation and death as to the trauma it caused. The destruction, by infidelity, of my world was absolute.

Granted, I might have felt differently if I had suffered a life-altering wound in combat, but I didn't; whereas infidelity has wounded me in a way that did alter the trajectory of the rest of my life.

I can respect an enemy combatant, see myself even shaking hands after the war has ended. There is no way I can ever have respect for an adulterous betrayer. They may not directly kill the body, but they kill the soul and rip the foundation of civilization (the family) apart. Above all they do it because they care for no-one but themselves, without any allegiance to a cause but selfishness and no thought to anything but immediate gratification.

They destroy their families, their spouses and by extension their children and the effects can span generations. Even in divorce, the damage they have done and the people they are will influence children from future marriages as people who have been close to infidelity will be forever tainted by it's ugly stench and will never be the easy going and loving people they could have been had they not been betrayed or in the case of the adulterous, simply by virtue of their character.

It's just my personal opinion, but, even knowing that I would most likely die, I'd rather face the horror of combat again than go through being betrayed by an adulterous spouse once more. I have weighed these words carefully and I don't make this statement lightly, because both options are exceedingly horrific.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Of course they can. Not sure how much the kids will appreciate that when they grow up. But there is forgiveness.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Of course they can. Not sure how much the kids will appreciate that when they grow up. But there is forgiveness.


Forgiveness does not mean continuing a relationship, though.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Dictum Veritas said:


> As a veteran of both combat and infidelity, I'd take the horror of combat again above the pain of adulterous betrayal. There is one simple truth, combat is indescribably brutal. You live in a fear that transforms into a numbness and see things no-one should ever see or experience, but it's not personal. It's ideologies horrifically clashing.
> 
> Infidelity is the most personal pain I have ever suffered. I was betrayed at a core and base animalistic level by the person I trusted the most. The visuals of them together (even if conjured by my mind) was worse than actual mutilation and death as to the trauma it caused. The destruction, by infidelity, of my world was absolute.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this DV. I am humbled by your experiences, you seem to have had a lot of pain and trauma in your past and you are still so kind in your advice and the sharing of your story. I appreciate your input so much.


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Dictum Veritas said:


> As a veteran of both combat and infidelity, I'd take the horror of combat again above the pain of adulterous betrayal. There is one simple truth, combat is indescribably brutal. You live in a fear that transforms into a numbness and see things no-one should ever see or experience, but it's not personal. It's ideologies horrifically clashing.
> 
> Infidelity is the most personal pain I have ever suffered. I was betrayed at a core and base animalistic level by the person I trusted the most. The visuals of them together (even if conjured by my mind) was worse than actual mutilation and death as to the trauma it caused. The destruction, by infidelity, of my world was absolute.
> 
> ...


It makes sense that PTSD has a component of the unexpected. (And of course, combat situations, refugees from war zones often fall apart later, when they’re safe) For instance, things like infidelity and even the scenario of someone being home during a robbery, or bank teller staff who have been working during a hold up. It doesn’t sound like something that can later incapacitate a person, does it? But months or years later, these people can become devastatingly unwell. It’s the unexpected shock that causes the damage. For kids too, you’re doing ok, just fine, and then your world, your mum or dad just aren’t what they were pretending to be.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Dictum Veritas said:


> It's just my personal opinion, but, even knowing that I would most likely die, I'd rather face the horror of combat again than go through being betrayed by an adulterous spouse once more. I have weighed these words carefully and I don't make this statement lightly, because both options are exceedingly horrific.


I think there is a reason many guys in combat hold on to pictures of their wives and girlfriends back home. The feelings they have there is what gets them through some horrific crap. So, to have those feelings betrayed....I get it man.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> Forgiveness does not mean continuing a relationship, though.


Relationship with whom?


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Relationship with whom?


With cheating parents.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> With cheating parents.


Of course not. I always try and see the good side in people.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Of course not. I always try and see the good side in people.


You say that like it's always a good thing. I've found accepting reality, however ugly keeps you from wasting your life in limbo hoping for things to change in your favor.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> You say that like it's always a good thing. I've found accepting reality, however ugly keeps you from wasting your life in limbo hoping for things to change in your favor.


I have to agree with this in most circumstances. Some of the biggest mistakes I've seen are people who deal with how they wished things and people were instead of how they really are and just perpetuate the use and abuse.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Of course not. I always try and see the good side in people.


That’s fine and all, but you’ll do a lot better seeing _the truth_ in people.

Hell, you don’t even have to try — you just have to accept what they show you.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> That’s fine and all, but you’ll do a lot better seeing _the truth_ in people.
> 
> Hell, you don’t even have to try — you just have to accept what they show you.


Sometimes it's the hardest thing you ever have to do, but it's either that or be condemned to living a half life.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

GusPolinski said:


> That’s fine and all, but you’ll do a lot better seeing _the truth_ in people.
> 
> Hell, you don’t even have to try — you just have to accept what they show you.


I often wonder just how differently my life would have turned out if I’d learned to make decisions based on actions, not words. I hope I learned for good this time!


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> You say that like it's always a good thing. I've found accepting reality, however ugly keeps you from wasting your life in limbo hoping for things to change in your favor.


Yes, it's a good thing. Who says you are stuck in limbo? This is a weird statement. You can see the good side in people and move on. In fact, seeing the good side in people helps you moving on, without bitterness and resentment. The two are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, it's a good thing. Who says you are stuck in limbo? This is a weird statement. You can see the good side in people and move on. In fact, seeing the good side in people helps you moving on, without bitterness and resentment. The two are not mutually exclusive.


So what do you do with the bad side? The horrible things people do to their kids?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

QuietRiot said:


> So what do you do with the bad side? The horrible things people do to their kids?


You forgive and move on.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> You forgive and move on.


Alrighty. I guess that’s one way to view destructive and terrible relationships, simplified to the point of obscurity. Forgiveness, even the word means many different things to different people. But hey if it works for you, cool.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

QuietRiot said:


> But hey if it works for you, cool.


It does. There is a lot of negativity in this world. Now, I'm not advocating ignoring or rewarding bad behaviour, but people have many different qualities. I try and find them in people. It's not always possible. In this case, I forgive, forget and move on. What's the alternative? Constantly living in resentment and rage?


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> It does. There is a lot of negativity in this world. Now, I'm not advocating ignoring or rewarding bad behaviour, but people have many different qualities. I try and find them in people. It's not always possible. In this case, I forgive, forget and move on. What's the alternative? Constantly living in resentment and rage?


This sounds so reasonable. Like a cog in a machine that squeals a little when it runs dry of oil and then again goes silent the moment it is plied with a little lubricant, no matter how much of itself has been ground away, as long as it's not to the point of failure.

This is certainly the words and attitude of a reasonable man. The rub is that no reasonable man has ever made a revolutionary change in history and man has known this for ages:

_“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”_

*― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman*

_"History is rarely made by reasonable men."_

― Terry Goodkind

I guess I cannot be this reasonable man, to me I would lose my reflection in the mirror and indeed just see in its stead an object, a doormat.

What is the alternative to this great forgiveness? To stand tall and cut the cancer from ones life, cauterize the bleeding wound and walk into life free of the malignancy as is befitting of the valiant.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> You forgive and move on.


i like the move on part, but not the forgiveness part. Also, I prefer moving on once justice or punishment is dished out first. At that point, then I can move on without bitterness and resentment. As for forgiveness? They can ask for that from God.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Dictum Veritas said:


> This sounds so reasonable. Like a cog in a machine that squeals a little when it runs dry of oil and then again goes silent the moment it is plied with a little lubricant, no matter how much of itself has been ground away, as long as it's not to the point of failure.
> 
> This is certainly the words and attitude of a reasonable man. The rub is that no reasonable man has ever made a revolutionary change in history and man has known this for ages:
> 
> ...


it's not matter of being reasonable. I'm the least reasonable man in the world. I see it as being understanding and compassionate. Which doesn't translate into no action.


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> i like the move on part, but not the forgiveness part. Also, I prefer moving on once justice or punishment is dished out first. At that point, then I can move on without bitterness and resentment. As for forgiveness? They can ask for that from God.


A poster here, @Taxman , has a way of regaling one with tales from the deep font of his experience he has acquired by dealing with infidelity on a professional level. He once made a very profound statement on a thread by @Cromer . He said (and I am paraphrasing) that (as it pertains to infidelity) he is an accountant and that the books must be balanced (justice must be served).

Well, I spent most of my adult life as a programmer and all equations must be balanced as well. The attitude of forgiveness, letting the perpetrator off Scott-free has lead to a disproportionate amount of wrongdoers continuing their evil since they see very little in terms of consequence. The scales are out of balance, but luckily nature does not allow this. Nature balances the scales. Now the caveat, nature cares not for justice in balancing the scales, only that equilibrium is achieved. Sins of the fathers... comes to mind because someone will face the retributions for acts of evil (which slots in with the theme of this thread).

I prefer to help nature where I can, steer retribution to where it's deserved if at all possible. That way the scales balance with the unjust (in larger proportion) finding themselves at the sharp end of the prongs when justice is metered out.


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> it's not matter of being reasonable. I'm the least reasonable man in the world. I see it as being understanding and compassionate. Which doesn't translate into no action.


Compassion is a great gift, but like all gifts if given too freely can spoil those who receive it to the determent of the world at large. See my previous post as to explanation.


----------



## Cici1990 (Feb 22, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> i like the move on part, but not the forgiveness part. Also, I prefer moving on once justice or punishment is dished out first. At that point, then I can move on without bitterness and resentment. As for forgiveness? They can ask for that from God.


You’ve got issues.


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

Cici1990 said:


> You’ve got issues.


Having issues is a part of being alive. I have long observed that those with the greater issues will often highlight what they disagree with in another as an issue, without explanation and as a means to use that person's perceived issues as a shield to hide their own fragility as caused by their much greater issues from the sight of that portion of the world that do not boost their esteem.

This is a trap we should best avoid in life.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Compassion is a great gift, but like all gifts if given too freely can spoil those who receive it to the determent of the world at large. See my previous post as to explanation.


thanks... but I don't think I ever said to give it too freely.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, it's a good thing. Who says you are stuck in limbo? This is a weird statement. You can see the good side in people and move on. In fact, seeing the good side in people helps you moving on, without bitterness and resentment. The two are not mutually exclusive.


I wasn't referring to the religious definition of limbo, but the more anecdotal one of never making a decision one way or the other and getting stuck. 

Anyway, when I look at people too positively, it leaves me open to being gullible and surprised at their actions later on. I'd rather be as realistic as I possibly can, it's helped me survive a lot of pain, move on, and be happy again.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Cici1990 said:


> You’ve got issues.


Pot calling kettle...


----------



## Cici1990 (Feb 22, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Pot calling kettle...


Oh I have issues too, just not the same ones.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> I wasn't referring to the religious definition of limbo, but the more anecdotal one of never making a decision one way or the other and getting stuck.
> 
> Anyway, when I look at people too positively, it leaves me open to being gullible and surprised at their actions later on. I'd rather be as realistic as I possibly can, it's helped me survive a lot of pain, move on, and be happy again.


I know you weren't talking about the religious limbo... anyway... I've been called a reasonable man, when I try to be a "rational man". Also, I don't look at things "too positively". What I learnt from my failed marriage is that you need to analyse, rationalise and move on. And forgive, if at all possible. There is no point in being resentful, bitter, angry. You only end up destroying yourself. With this, I don't mean to "cancel" other people's faults. You act to heal, not to live in hell (not the religious meaning... 🙂)...


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

A good way to deal with the terrible things people do is to remove yourself. Let them be terrible without you. You gave them your past, don’t give them your future.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> I know you weren't talking about the religious limbo... anyway... I've been called a reasonable man, when I try to be a "rational man". Also, I don't look at things "too positively". What I learnt from my failed marriage is that you need to analyse, rationalise and move on. And forgive, if at all possible. There is no point in being resentful, bitter, angry. You only end up destroying yourself. With this, I don't mean to "cancel" other people's faults. You act to heal, not to live in hell (not the religious meaning... 🙂)...


I appreciate you sharing your viewpoints. I just feel that for me, it’s just not that easy. I feel I have to confront the terrible things and really understand them before I can work to let them go. I struggle to make sense of the why, to untangle all the complicated feelings surrounding the traumas… unfortunately I can’t do it on my own. I have therapy that is helping… but it’s a long process.

Acceptance I feel, has to come before forgiveness. It’s very difficult to accept the people who are supposed to love you the most purposefully stab you in the back for their own wants. I can’t concentrate on how great they were at helping their friend in need, or baking a killer lasagna or whatever good parts of them there is when my heart aches from what was done.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I know you weren't talking about the religious limbo... anyway... I've been called a reasonable man, when I try to be a "rational man". Also, I don't look at things "too positively". What I learnt from my failed marriage is that you need to analyse, rationalise and move on. And forgive, if at all possible. There is no point in being resentful, bitter, angry. You only end up destroying yourself. With this, I don't mean to "cancel" other people's faults. You act to heal, not to live in hell (not the religious meaning... 🙂)...


Gotcha. I had to google the dictionary meaning when I saw your reply, to confirm what I was trying to convey.

One observation I've noted, people call you "reasonable" when they mean "favorable to their way of thinking". At the end of the day, it's about knowing you've done your very best and being able to look closely at yourself in the mirror.

I suppose my idea of forgiveness is not only letting go of the pain and resentment, but also the person so they have no power to **** anything up for me anymore or cause me to doubt myself, much like @Luckylucky mentioned. One life lesson my grandfather taught me, which I've discovered was a saying "You are the sum of the people you spend the most time with, so choose your company closely", which goes hand in hand with "Birds of a feather flock together".

It's not about being better than anyone else, but about being the best you can be and not falling down just because other people find lower standards of conduct acceptable. Have you ever noticed some people just drag you down?

Part of my healing was looking at myself critically and accepting that I can't grow if I don't remove myself from toxic situations. It was and is so hard, but I've been reaping the benefits. I used to be on anti-anxiety medicine, my doctor actually gave my anti-depressants on the down-low because I refused to accept I was depressed.

I don't hate my exH, not even his AP, I feel sorry for them. They'll always know what they did if they grow as people morally to want to do better while I go on to living my best life.



Luckylucky said:


> A good way to deal with the terrible things people do is to remove yourself. Let them be terrible without you. You gave them your past, don’t give them your future.


Exactly!


QuietRiot said:


> I appreciate you sharing your viewpoints. I just feel that for me, it’s just not that easy. I feel I have to confront the terrible things and really understand them before I can work to let them go. I struggle to make sense of the why, to untangle all the complicated feelings surrounding the traumas… unfortunately I can’t do it on my own. I have therapy that is helping… but it’s a long process.
> 
> Acceptance I feel, has to come before forgiveness. It’s very difficult to accept the people who are supposed to love you the most purposefully stab you in the back for their own wants. I can’t concentrate on how great they were at helping their friend in need, or baking a killer lasagna or whatever good parts of them there is when my heart aches from what was done.


Ok, halt right there, Missy! You are never going to know 100% of the truth or someone else's motivations, so no point going down that rabbit hole. Besides, his actions are his to own, not yours.

Once you accept, that the only person you can control is you, you'll be able to focus 100% of your efforts on yourself. Stop letting that vampire suck you dry of our light and joy. Therapy was so hard but absolutely worthwhile, definitely keep going!


----------



## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Cici1990 said:


> You’ve got issues.


Huh. Interesting. And yet he didn't have to wonder if he created children outside of his marriage or cheat on his wife when he didn't get his needs met.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Ok, halt right there, Missy! You are never going to know 100% of the truth or someone else's motivations, so no point going down that rabbit hole. Besides, his actions are his to own, not yours.
> 
> Once you accept, that the only person you can control is you, you'll be able to focus 100% of your efforts on yourself. Stop letting that vampire suck you dry of our light and joy. Therapy was so hard but absolutely worthwhile, definitely keep going!


Well that’s the part of the “why”. It wasn’t about me. Workin on it!


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Luckylucky said:


> A good way to deal with the terrible things people do is to remove yourself. Let them be terrible without you. You gave them your past, don’t give them your future.


This is a fair point, Luckylucky. I've had to do this many times in my life, unfortunately.


----------



## Cuobs (Apr 1, 2021)

.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Dictum Veritas said:


> A poster here, @Taxman , has a way of regaling one with tales from the deep font of his experience he has acquired by dealing with infidelity on a professional level. He once made a very profound statement on a thread by @Cromer . He said (and I am paraphrasing) that (as it pertains to infidelity) he is an accountant and that the books must be balanced (justice must be served).
> 
> Well, I spent most of my adult life as a programmer and all equations must be balanced as well. The attitude of forgiveness, letting the perpetrator off Scott-free has lead to a disproportionate amount of wrongdoers continuing their evil since they see very little in terms of consequence. The scales are out of balance, but luckily nature does not allow this. Nature balances the scales. Now the caveat, nature cares not for justice in balancing the scales, only that equilibrium is achieved. Sins of the fathers... comes to mind because someone will face the retributions for acts of evil (which slots in with the theme of this thread).
> 
> I prefer to help nature where I can, steer retribution to where it's deserved if at all possible. That way the scales balance with the unjust (in larger proportion) finding themselves at the sharp end of the prongs when justice is metered out.


just saw this, DV. I swear, you are smooth as silk. 🙂 I couldn’t agree more. We live in an age where morally corrupt people just assume they don’t have to face consequences in life. Everything will work out. Too many people think they somehow deserve a second chance simply for existing. It’s laughable. Unfortunately, these folks are quite loud and fool others into giving second chances because “it’s the right thing to do”. Living a life with no consequences…. It automatically means that nothing is learned.Repeat actions (or worse) will take place and then we just end up with more dysfunctional people. It’s sad, really. You are right, this does slot in well with this thread.
Oh, I’m well aware of the @Taxman! If he speaks, I’m pulling up a chair with some popcorn. Clearly you haven’t heard of the book I want him to write. It’s called “So I have this client…” 😂


----------



## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Most of them are half-crazy by 40 anyway, and get funnier as they age. Really, you have to laugh at stupid people thinking they’re really hot after a certain age, trying to parent while their kids are miles ahead of them mentally & emotionally.

They are entertaining! Sit back and enjoy the Turkish-soap-opera they’re acting in for free.


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Cuobs said:


> So I repeat, to be qualified as a good parent in my opinion depends a lot on how demanding the environment is and how well parents can assume the formative role that corresponds to them. A great parent will not only think about the current environment, but also the future environment and how to help their children live in it. If you have a particular environment where infidelity *will put a burden or strain on the nuclear family, you certainly do not qualify as a good parent at that time and it will depend on your past and future actions coupled with the judgment of your children as to whether they will qualify as one.*



With that logic, though, then divorce(even without infidelity) would certainly disqualify any parent as "good" then..(if I am interpreting what you are stating).....Not only does a divorce put a strain on, but just completely disintegrates the "nuclear family"....


----------



## Cuobs (Apr 1, 2021)

.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Cuobs said:


> Your Honor I am innocent I swear the translator did it.... Family nucleus I meant
> 
> 
> The source of the pressure on the family environment makes a difference, as well as how you can justify it to your children. There are pressures that are unavoidable within the marriage, being the children themselves a generous source of them (healthy children are manipulators by excellence).
> ...


I think your arguments make a lot of sense. What’s difficult is that often times being the person betrayed in the relationship is pulled into a kind of warped place. It made ME a worse person, and worse parent when I didn’t even know. I haven’t parented so crappy until his affair was in full swing…and then the months after I found out, when I was barely keeping it together. People who think the affair is so well hidden and affects nobody completely discount the malignancy it’s causes, that runs deep below the surface.

Having kids is probably the most humbling experience I can think of. You constantly have to pick at your own faults, gauge your shortcomings, try to make up for issues in so many areas to do right by your kids. And then you don’t even know half the ways you’re screwing them up! Some of the best parents I have ever met have told me, “I feel like a failure as a parent.” It’s the most difficult job I’ve ever had. And I hope one day my kids reflect these sacrifices not with gratitude, or accolades to me, but just by becoming really good people. That’s all I want for them.


----------



## Cuobs (Apr 1, 2021)

.


----------



## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

*Can people with cheater mentality ever be good parents?*
cheater mentality in which way ,
cheating in the way that you have sex behind the back of the children's father or mother , i think not 

cheater mentality in the way that you pretended to be something your not to get a husband or wife , I think not 

cheater mentality in any way is been dishonest and unless your lucky and good at it will be found out and this gives bad example to the children and their life will be impacted by you


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

QuietRiot said:


> I appreciate you sharing your viewpoints. I just feel that for me, it’s just not that easy. I feel I have to confront the terrible things and really understand them before I can work to let them go. I struggle to make sense of the why, to untangle all the complicated feelings surrounding the traumas… unfortunately I can’t do it on my own. I have therapy that is helping… but it’s a long process.
> 
> Acceptance I feel, has to come before forgiveness. It’s very difficult to accept the people who are supposed to love you the most purposefully stab you in the back for their own wants. I can’t concentrate on how great they were at helping their friend in need, or baking a killer lasagna or whatever good parts of them there is when my heart aches from what was done.


It's a long process and therapy helps a lot. You will get there.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> Gotcha. I had to google the dictionary meaning when I saw your reply, to confirm what I was trying to convey.
> 
> One observation I've noted, people call you "reasonable" when they mean "favorable to their way of thinking". At the end of the day, it's about knowing you've done your very best and being able to look closely at yourself in the mirror.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you. As I said before, it's a long process and we need to understand before we can accept and forgive.


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Most people arent all bad and can be a loving parent while doing bad things elsewhere.


No-one so self centered as to destroy the person they swore not to betray can ever be altruistic enough to be considered a good parent at all.

All this grey line blurring has caused us to loose sight of white being white and black being black. Wrong attracts wrong and right attracts right and nuances are for people who think they are smarter than the dictates of the natural order.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> I’ve been pondering lately, since I’ve had ample time to do so being on my own...my life and family ruined by a cheater (albeit temporarily as I will recover and build anew), I have come to ponder two really important questions relevant to my life: Does a person who finds the ability to cheat, who lacks the morals and self control to stay faithful, have the ability to be a great parent? Is a person who allows themselves to become so morally bankrupt--to pervert themselves and their values with an affair--able to be a great parent without serious intervention? So far I know the answer to my own question, but I think it’s important to discuss. And I’m interested in others viewpoints.
> 
> 
> Notice that I don’t even mention the impossible option that a person who is a cheater can concurrently be a great parent. Not even entertaining this argument. Subpar parenting is not in my book GREAT parenting. GREAT parenting cannot coexist with a person who lies, betrays and deceives one's family and self and diverts their attention and resources outside the family.
> ...


Well, no one is perfect.


----------



## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Most people arent all bad and can be a loving parent while doing bad things elsewhere.


Because I love my children, I would NEVER have done something that would risk upsetting their happy life, like cheating and resulting in divorce. I divorced, but that's because their lousy mother was a cheater and didn't give them one iota of thought when she was getting hers.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

However, the irony is that some parents who would never even dream of having an affair are also absolutely ****ing ****ty parents.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MattMatt said:


> However, the irony is that some parents who would never even dream of having an affair are also absolutely ****ing ****ty parents.


That's the point I was going for. Thanks Matt!


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

MattMatt said:


> However, the irony is that some parents who would never even dream of having an affair are also absolutely ****ing ****ty parents.


True, but the adulterous does it in a particular Faustian style.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

I have a story about this.

My uncle has never been faithful to my aunt. She is hardly a victim, she met him when she went to work for him and started sleeping with her married boss. 🙄 He has always been unfaithful and has that entitled mentality of cheaters: "Why shouldn't I always get whatever I want with no consequences?"

I always was impressed at how much he loved his children and thought he was a great dad. Truth be told, he was there for me when I needed a father figure in my early twenties. I love him, I really do, I just don't love his cheating behavior. But my aunt took him back, time after time, and if there are no consequences to cheating, it will continue. I'm not thrilled with her behavior either.

Now that I'm an old lady with a child of my own, though, I see he wasn't a great dad. He never held his kids to account, never made them behave, never made them try. He never held them to a standard of behavior, and even today, when they're adults, he bails them out after bad decisions and gives advice like "follow your heart." (We're not the Care Bears, gang, sometimes you have to get up and go to work.)

That cheater mentality bled into his parenting. He raised his kids to believe that they should always get whatever they want in the moment and there are no consequences to bad choices. They're all four dysfunctional, multiple marriages, tons of infidelity, wrecked finances, no one has actually completed anything they've ever started. 

Cheaters believe the world revolves around them. That isn't a great lesson in parenting.


----------



## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

MattMatt said:


> However, the irony is that some parents who would never even dream of having an affair are also absolutely ****ing ****ty parents.


Im not sure I find the irony, I was musing for the sake of musing. But really the pondering had to do with… can a person with that selfish and entitled mentality be anything more than an “okay” parent at best? (Thinking of that bumper sticker “Worlds okay-est Mom!”)

As for the rest of the **** parents in the world, that’s musing for another day, likely after a visit to the nearest Walmart. 

I actually forgot I even wrote this post, but this is fun. Seems I am still not cured of talking smack about cheaters (or the people of Walmart, which obviously I am one if I’m shopping there. Now THAT’S irony. 🤣 )


----------



## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> However, the irony is that some parents who would never even dream of having an affair are also absolutely ****ing ****ty parents.


This is true yes.

However, and this is just my opinion, some parents that don't have a cheater mentality can be bad parents, but *ALL* people with the cheater mentality are not good parents.


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

drencrom said:


> This is true yes.
> 
> However, and this is just my opinion, some parents that don't have a cheater mentality can be bad parents, but *ALL* people with the cheater mentality are not good parents.


And I will second this!


----------



## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

monkey see monkey do

do as I say not as I do

makes it hard for a WS to be a good parent. no different than any parent
to say do not drink smoke or do drugs to their kids yet they do these same
things to themselves.

kids are going to play or be tempted to play the hypocrite card.


----------



## christine29 (Nov 30, 2021)

There is no effect on the parent-child relationship as long as the affair does not interfere with time spent with the children. In fact, if an affair helps a spouse stay married and happy in an otherwise sexless marriage, it can help you be a better parent. But it actually depends because sometimes what you reap is what you sow.


----------



## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

christine29 said:


> There is no effect on the parent-child relationship as long as the affair does not interfere with time spent with the children.


One parent not caring enough to not f*** over the other parent and throw the child's life into divorce turmoil IS affecting the child and changes the interaction and relationship, good or bad, with one or both the parents. I can tell you first hand how my x-wife's cheating destroyed my kids. They eventually recovered, but now the oldest hates his mother for what she did.



> In fact, if an affair helps a spouse stay married and happy in an otherwise sexless marriage, it can help you be a better parent.


Ya, ok, back off to Tinder and Ashley Madison you go.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

christine29 said:


> There is no effect on the parent-child relationship as long as the affair does not interfere with time spent with the children. In fact, if an affair helps a spouse stay married and happy in an otherwise sexless marriage, it can help you be a better parent. But it actually depends because sometimes what you reap is what you sow.


Agreed with @drencom. You're looking for a hook-up site, this isn't it. You want Ashley Madison, this isn't a site for married people who like cheating.


----------

