# Husband ruined whole weekend over sex



## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

Been with him since 15 (21 years together, married 8) 

Last week, he tells me he isnt happy about how he always has to ask for it... wants me to initiate more. Thats a whole other subject... but want to make the point about timing... that he brought up this issue last week. 

Saturday morning I go to wake him up because its 7:30 and we need to get moving to get on the lake by 9 (been planning trip since previous weekend) He wants sex.. I dont want to... trying to leave, don't want daughter to wake up and having gross unusual female issues. He just gives me this disgusted pissed look and I respond with saying "I hate my life" Wrong thing to say I know., and FYI, I don't go throwing that statement around. I'll explain that in a minute.

So I go downstairs... 3 hours later he comes down.. dressed to work at our shop.. He leaves.. doesn't come home till 9pm. Spent day working on our bronco. Ruined the day. Next day we spent the day doing chores and taking turns with our daughter... we ignored eachother pretty much. Our fights almost never go more than one day.... and without speaking!

My feelings: I said I hated my life because any freaking time I ASK for something (going on the boat... whatever) I will not get it. Or if I get what I want, he is sure to complain. It also seems like he asked for sex knowing I wanted something (to go to the lake) and then because he didnt get it, he penalized me by not going to the lake... planned for a whole week. Its not always sex manipulation either... I never get things I specifically ask for. I only get things HE wants to give me, but never what I specifically ask for..., and the idea that the weekend got wrecked over sex (which he just asked for work on.. but asked for at a really bad time) really pisses me off because I dared to plan a trip and look forward to it, but of course, theres got to be something that screws me out of my plan... I ASKED for it you see. Sure, I could have shut the door and had sex and all would have been merry and we would have gone to the lake, but I just didnt want to and there were some girl problems I was really embarrassed about, and he made me feel so gross and mad when he stared angrily at me for saying no I really got upset. I just said in my head to myself forget the dang lake, Im not going to beg to go there.. not going to service him just to get to do what I want... with that attitude, it was ruined anyway.

Couldnt he just pick a better freaking time to ask for sex... like later that night... Did he really have to cancel the whole freaking weekend!

And now, I really cant imagine ever wanting to have sex with him again. Really feels like the last straw. Work on initiating! Seriously! 

I am so depressed... I am taking the day off. Yes, I do work for myself, but I never take the day off.. 

All comments welcome.. What do you really thinK? I can't stand fights lasting this long. I could initate, we could have sex and make up, but it wouldnt be better for me... I feel like that was the last straw. I am so sick of getting screwed out of doing "fun stuff" that was my idea. I half expected him to come home and decide we would go to the lake (that day or the next) Control issue I guess.

Help?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Is this your usual dynamic of relating to each other?

Because, one way to handle it, is to first acknowledge his need for sex and then have a willingness to meet that at a more opportune time.

How would it have played out if you would have leaned over, kissed him, and said with sexy smile "Honey, we don't have time right now and I've got <some weird female issue> that is making me uncomfortable right now. Can we take a raincheck for tonite? We've got these things to do today and later maybe we can go <do what you wanted>." and wink at him.

While I think that marriage is about giving and taking, it's not about keeping score on who does what for whom when.

And I think that his wanting you to initiate may be a yearning on his part to know that you actually do desire him. DO you desire him? Do you kiss him, touch him throughout the day, flirt with him? Do you tell him that you appreciate him?

God Bless.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Enchantment said:


> Is this your usual dynamic of relating to each other?
> 
> Because, one way to handle it, is to first acknowledge his need for sex and then have a willingness to meet that at a more opportune time.
> 
> ...


Very well put. :iagree:


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> Couldnt he just pick a better freaking time to ask for sex... like later that night... Did he really have to cancel the whole freaking weekend!


As Enchantment mentioned. . .could you have suggested to him another time? Personally, if I get offered one more friggin 'raincheck' it might be the end for me. I just hate that term now.

He does sound like he's being manipulative. If it's a trip you planned for a week and he tosses the 'let's have sex' line at the start, this does seem a little unfair. I also have to wonder if there is manipulation and /or control issues for each of you. It would be interesting to hear his view of this whole scenario. I am not trying to negate your feelings at all, just proposing a different perspective (his) to understand the situation.

Also, could you have gone on the lake trip on your own? Perhaps you really wanted to have your husband with you, but saying he ruined the whole weekend is giving him a lot of control. I used to do the same thing with my wife - she would do something (or some series of things) and I would blame her for everything. I came to the realization that I needed to have more accountability for myself and my own happiness. again, not trying to preach to you, just sharing my own perspectives in case it may help.

Good luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

"Rainchecks" work great - but they HAVE TO BE specific. For us - a raincheck means tomorrow. And tomorrow really MEANS tomorrow. 

If there is some reason tomorrow is simply not possible then it is the day after tomorrow. But we don't ever say "raincheck" we say "can I rock your world tomorrow"?




jayde said:


> As Enchantment mentioned. . .could you have suggested to him another time? Personally, if I get offered one more friggin 'raincheck' it might be the end for me. I just hate that term now.
> 
> He does sound like he's being manipulative. If it's a trip you planned for a week and he tosses the 'let's have sex' line at the start, this does seem a little unfair. I also have to wonder if there is manipulation and /or control issues for each of you. It would be interesting to hear his view of this whole scenario. I am not trying to negate your feelings at all, just proposing a different perspective (his) to understand the situation.
> 
> ...


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

Thank you for the reply... It has to get pretty bad for me to seek out a forum for help....

Yes, I did just sort of just lay out the "excuses" "reasons" not to have sex. I guess I felt he was manipulating me (its last minute here.....no lake unless I get sex) and didn't feel like playing understanding sweet wife, with promise of sex later. I totally get how I could have handled that WAY better. What you said to do...I have used that approach before.. and sometimes it works. I guess I just didn't have it in me to work at it so hard... when I felt manipulated...Maybe all he saw in that was how I basically disregarded him. I can understand the anger. But I have a problem with his behavior too... 

I do desire him, though not always at the same time as him. 

Our intamicy has almost disappeared. And not because of the weight... I could lose a few pounds too. We rarely kiss touch or anything. We can have great talks, sometimes, but holding hands, never, hugs, when I come up and give him one... Neither of us is initiating anything intimate.

He wants to buy a motorcycle so we could take rides together... we both ride, but not for years. Took a loaned bike on a poker run with friends about 10 months ago, was great. We are rediculously in debt and need to pay it off but considering letting him get the bike because we never do anything together,,, just the 2 of us (we have a 6 year old) and we really need that.

I want to bring the argument to an end.... which would require sex... but I want him to know how I feel too. It isn't just him who got shot down. The problem is not only me.

suggestions for getting made up.. without feeling bitter over it?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

jayde said:


> As Enchantment mentioned. . .could you have suggested to him another time? Personally, if I get offered one more friggin 'raincheck' it might be the end for me. I just hate that term now.
> 
> He does sound like he's being manipulative. If it's a trip you planned for a week and he tosses the 'let's have sex' line at the start, this does seem a little unfair. I also have to wonder if there is manipulation and /or control issues for each of you. It would be interesting to hear his view of this whole scenario. I am not trying to negate your feelings at all, just proposing a different perspective (his) to understand the situation.
> 
> ...


Not that you'll be likely to appreciate my perspective, but here it is:

If you turn the whole thing around and view it from his perspective (and I admit I don't know him or your specific situation) I can see him waking up and thinking, _"you know what would get my weekend trip to the lake off to a great start? Getting some sexual appreciation from my wife." _ Now, he might not have handled the situation with the greatest of tact and diplomacy, but hearing "I hate my life" in response isn't just going to invoke the feelings of rejection that all men struggle with, it's going to undermine everything that he feels he's contributed to your health, safety and well-being for weeks, months, or years.

As a dude, I would react very strongly and very negatively to that. I might not cancel my plans for the lake, but I can bet that those four words coming out of my wife's mouth would throw me into a spiral of resentment and frustration that would, indeed, manifest itself by avoiding the woman who just threw all of my work back in my face with one dismissive phrase. Now, did you mention your female problems as a reason? Did you let him know, explicitly, why you were frustrated and depressed?

I wouldn't say he was being manipulative at all -- he had an emotion, he reacted to what you said, and it wasn't the way you wanted him to, but being pissed off isn't exactly manipulation. He's mad at you. He has a good reason to be. Sure, you don't want to "service" him, and you don't want to take the initiative with sex . . . I understand that. But "I hate my life"? That's an indictment not just of his immediate behavior, but of your marriage as a whole. I'd be pissed too. I'd certainly agree that Enchantment's method would have had far, far better results. 

But I also wouldn't be surprised if I saw _his_ post on this board, _"Wife ruined whole weekend over sex,"_ and be completely justified.


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

jayde.... he really did ruin the trip. It was a family trip (him, me and our daughter) although we dont tell her about trips until they happen.. No letdowns. I am capable of going myself, but it would have been really hard to launch the boat/retrieve it with my 6 year old... And the only vehicle we had available at the time was his service truck (bronco needed repairs... which ironically are done... by his leaving for the whole day and working on it) So, he really did ruin the day.... I was just so depressed sunday and we werent talking that sunday was ruined as well. 

Hubby doesnt know yet, but we are going to Apache lake next weekend with my mom... it will be the only chance we have to go to this lake.. I have already decided I am taking my daughter there next weekend. I even told her dangit. We are going. Period. BECAUSE _*I*_ WANT TO! Haven't told hubby because I got the invite via text an hour or so after our fight. Haven't talked to husband since.

I do offer rainchecks sometimes and follow up with them.. feel I have to produce when I do the put off... 

I guess it boils down to I am mad he screwed me out of something I wanted to do .... again... His bad timing... didnt he realize we needed to get going. I mentined the time... and we both know how long it takes to get there by 9.. He definitely knew that... and asked anyway.. I don't like that. Guess that is why I couldnt bring myself to offer a rain check.

Keep the suggestions coming.... this really helps me work thorough things, and how to get us back on track... THank you all for all your words so far...keem em coming!


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

ian- some powerful words there! THank you.


> "you know what would get my weekend trip to the lake off to a great start? Getting some sexual appreciation from my wife."


 is exactly what he probably thought. He probably does think I ruined his weekend. You could be him in disguise..... really... you pegged it DEAD ON....

But there was that female problem (very unusual) and I mentioned it. I felt gross and embarrassed at having to mention it and getting a look of disgust/anger???? probably more anger than anything. And I was mad for him not caring about that... he probably thought it was another excuse. 

Yeah, the I hate my life thing just came out... summed up all the resentment I have felt... totally inappropriate... I jsut felt so vulnerable admitting to the female problem... and when he glared back at me, I just wanted to shrink into a shell/die/scream/yeall at him/run away/nothing good.

Going on these boards when things are at their worst really helps me to see his perspective better, and how much effort I need to start putting into our marriage.

working on what to do next... 

could invite him home when he has a chance... we both work for ourselves in our shared business... so unless he is slammed... maybe he can come home.. maybe I will have him read this post. It is personal... but anonymous.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> jayde.... he really did ruin the trip. It was a family trip (him, me and our daughter) although we dont tell her about trips until they happen.. No letdowns. I am capable of going myself, but it would have been really hard to launch the boat/retrieve it with my 6 year old... And the only vehicle we had available at the time was his service truck (bronco needed repairs... which ironically are done... by his leaving for the whole day and working on it) So, he really did ruin the day.... I was just so depressed sunday and we werent talking that sunday was ruined as well.
> 
> Hubby doesnt know yet, but we are going to Apache lake next weekend with my mom... it will be the only chance we have to go to this lake.. I have already decided I am taking my daughter there next weekend. I even told her dangit. We are going. Period. BECAUSE _*I*_ WANT TO! Haven't told hubby because I got the invite via text an hour or so after our fight. Haven't talked to husband since.
> 
> ...


 I keep hearing "he knew" and "he didn't realize" and "we both know" and "he definitely knew" . . . but I don't hear anything about "We talked about it openly, honestly, and clearly, so that there would be no misinterpretations, no miscommunications, and no need for telepathy." It sounds to me like you got mad, stomped off, and when you didn't return to even explain yourself to him -- figuring that he should just somehow _know_ what you were feeling and thinking without any actual verbal communication going on -- that you had abandoned not just the argument, but any further interaction with him at all. 

In that case, getting dressed and going to work without your wife even _trying_ to stop you and talk to you about it would be the appropriate thing to do. I mean, if you _really_ wanted to go, you wouldn't let a little misunderstanding or argument get in the way, would you? Or was being pissed off at him more important than going to the lake? Just curious.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

my wife tends to reject me in ways that i get offended somewhat. i would have absolutely no problem with her just leaning in (like Enchantment suggested) and at least acknowledging that she would also like to and suggest when she would be receptive (tonight, tomorrow, work at home monday, whatever) than to just throw up a wall. but i usually get a wall or an eye roll, and its very very demeaning. i am not usually receptive to her needs much after that, its the chicken/egg syndrome, or keeping score as someone stated.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

If I went to wake up my wife and she wanted sex. I would have given it to her. Especially if we were getting ready to spend the day together. A 'connection' is a great start to a together day.

If my 'equipment' wasn't working (like your female issue), then I would have still ensured she was looked after some way (orally and/or manually). 

You could have spent 5 or 10 minutes looking after his needs and he would have felt like you cared about him. And you would have had a great day.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> ian- some powerful words there! THank you. is exactly what he probably thought. He probably does think I ruined his weekend. You could be him in disguise..... really... you pegged it DEAD ON....


Male sexual psychology . . . I know my business.




bettertimes said:


> But there was that female problem (very unusual) and I mentioned it. I felt gross and embarrassed at having to mention it and getting a look of disgust/anger???? probably more anger than anything. And I was mad for him not caring about that... he probably thought it was another excuse.


From his perspective, this probably sounded like a lame excuse, not a legitimate complaint. Not saying it wasn't legitimate, but I think you might be misinterpreting his look. While I'm sure there was some anger/resentment there, the fact is that there isn't a husband alive who hasn't felt resentful of the inconvenient female reproductive cycle and all of its attendant problems. That being said, how involved is he with your female issues? Nothing beyond buying you an emergency box of tampons? Or does he go to your OB-GYN visits with you? That could be part of the issue. Some men are just too uncomfortable knowing to much of what goes on "down there" -- which is stupid, but culturally accurate. 

Sorry you felt gross/embarrassed about it, but if it was gross and embarrassing for you, it likely made him feel a little squiky as well. That being said, he asked for a compelling reason why you wouldn't, you gave him one. That doesn't mean that his feelings about the subject were going to go away, or the sex buzz he was feeling . . . it just meant that Nature was getting in the way once again. The fact is, if you had spoken with him at length you probably would have discovered that while he was sympathetic about your issue, he was also feeling highly frustrated and unappreciated, and that had more to do with his reaction than your female problems.




bettertimes said:


> Yeah, the I hate my life thing just came out... summed up all the resentment I have felt... totally inappropriate... I jsut felt so vulnerable admitting to the female problem... and when he glared back at me, I just wanted to shrink into a shell/die/scream/yeall at him/run away/nothing good.


So it summed up all of your resentment . . . for you. For him, it was a blanket condemnation on everything he does for you and the kid, ON TOP of being rejected firmly and somewhat rudely for sex. If I were you I would make a point of apologizing for that comment, acknowledging that it was completely inappropriate and entirely out of line, and then . . . stop. Wait. Listen to hear what he has to say in response to that BEFORE YOU SAY ANYTHING ELSE. Let him react to the issue of your apology before you continue in with the other problems. More than likely he'll be a little unsettled, but he'll grudgingly accept your apology. That little thing alone is worth half a BJ to a dude. OK, maybe a quarter.

THEN, after you have admitted that what you said was not only unfair but untrue, _and_ he has accepted your apology, THEN you discuss how his bailing on the trip made you feel. Tell him that it hurt your feelings that he subverted your plans and that it made you miserable all weekend. Tell him that it hurt your feelings when he got angry over your female problems, something that you couldn't do anything about, and while you admit that you could have -- should have -- handled the situation better, he should have been more sensitive to you. 

Tell him that you can appreciate his desire for more intimacy, and more intimacy that you initiate, and that you're willing to work on that . . . but he should acknowledge in turn that his timing was unfortunate and that his reaction, while understandable, was unproductive. And if I were you I would admit that you made the mistake of assuming what he thought and felt instead of asking him point-blank and dealing with the problem.

Don't get into why you never get your way. Don't get into why things always seem to run in his favor (I guarantee he will dispute that they do). Don't get into _anything other_ than this weekend and how it made you both feel. Heck, be daring and ASK HIM how the conversation made him feel -- and then shut up and let him talk until he doesn't have anything else to say. 

I'm not saying it will solve the problem. But if you're gonna be pissed at him for being pissed at you for being pissed at him for him wanting sex when you didn't feel well, then you at least owe each other the courtesy of spelling out exactly why you were pissed, instead of all the silent glaring and muttering under your breath.




bettertimes said:


> Going on these boards when things are at their worst really helps me to see his perspective better, and how much effort I need to start putting into our marriage.
> 
> working on what to do next...
> 
> could invite him home when he has a chance... we both work for ourselves in our shared business... so unless he is slammed... maybe he can come home.. maybe I will have him read this post. It is personal... but anonymous.


Heck. Why not wait until the kid is in bed, unexpectedly crack open a bottle of wine, pour two glasses, and drag him out on the back porch for an honest adult discussion? Don't force the issue too soon (while he's at work) else he'll be more irritated with your desire to finish the argument on your terms than he will the actual argument. 

Don't make him read the post. TALK TO HIM. Really. Men can talk, when invited, and when they are given permission to do so. But if you don't invite his honest communication, in an environment free from snap judgements and blame, then he's not going to volunteer the information. Dudes generally don't work that way.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

You sound like two people who have fallen into the common marital trap of keeping score rather than meeting each others' needs. Truthfully, you each acted badly.

Unless you have sex infrequently (such as Sat morning is the only opportunity and if he misses it, better luck next weekend), he shouldn't have initiated. Or, he should have known that sex was a long shot. And when you turned him down, he should have shrugged it off as being expected.

However, you telling him you hate your life was basically going nuclear. I'm not at all surprised that he blew off your trip after that. There's no way in hell I'm taking my wife anywhere after a statement like that.

You have a choice to make. You can continue to keep score and try to manipulate your husband into behaving better, while he does the same thing, or you can break the cycle and talk it out.

I think you should accept responsibility for your share of the problems at the same time you ask him for what you need. First, you apologize for telling him you hate your life. There's just no excuse for that. Then, you tell your side of why you declined sex. Then, offer some concessions for whatever he's wanting (usually more sex). Only then do you ask for concessions from him.

You can't frame this conversation as, "I only act badly because you force me to." It has to be, "I think I can give you what you want if you just help me out by doing X."


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> I keep hearing "he knew" and "he didn't realize" and "we both know" and "he definitely knew" . . . but I don't hear anything about "We talked about it openly, honestly, and clearly, so that there would be no misinterpretations, no miscommunications, and no need for telepathy."
> We both had plans to go... we even talked about where to get the sandwiches/lake pass the night before... and about the time.
> 
> 
> ...


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> i usually get a wall or an eye roll, and its very very demeaning. i am not usually receptive to her needs much after that, its the chicken/egg syndrome, or keeping score as someone stated.


very insightful.. It can be hard to see it from the other persons point of view when we are so caught up in being mad/right


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> my wife tends to reject me in ways that i get offended somewhat. i would have absolutely no problem with her just leaning in (like Enchantment suggested) and at least acknowledging that she would also like to and suggest when she would be receptive (tonight, tomorrow, work at home monday, whatever) than to just throw up a wall. but i usually get a wall or an eye roll, and its very very demeaning. i am not usually receptive to her needs much after that, its the chicken/egg syndrome, or keeping score as someone stated.


Dude -- so been there. I got her to stop it when she gave me that kind of cursory rejection, and then suddenly her life got REAL chilly, if you know what I mean. We talked about it, and she didn't even realize that she was rejecting me, she just thought I got pissed off for no good reason. I'm not saying she came around overnight, but once I was able to articulate to her just how profound a wound sexual rejection can be for a man, she's begun to choose her words and emotional responses a lot more carefully.

Ladies, if you haven't figured this out already, consider every half-serious proposition from your dude as a COMPLETELY SERIOUS proposal worthy of consideration. That doesn't mean you have to accept every proposal, but when we're dismissed out of hand, and it's truly important to us, it can be damaging. 

And yes, sometimes it is truly important to us. Enough to get pissed off and ruin an entire lake trip. If you at least agree that you seriously considered the idea, and communicate that while the offer is tempting you have good and compelling reasons why, unfortunately, it's just not practical right now and you would prefer to pursue it at a more appropriate time and place, your dudes will probably be more understanding than when we get the eye-roll. The eye-roll just pisses us off. It's dismissive, demeaning, and insulting.


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> You could have spent 5 or 10 minutes looking after his needs and he would have felt like you cared about him. And you would have had a great day.


 You're right. It just goes to a deeper issue that makes me not want to service him... when it is "service or your day sucks" I guess I just said F it. Sometimes I feel that way... but I do see the need to TRY harder especially when I dont want to...not fair to him to have reacted that way.,.... because I assumed manipulative intentions.. he was probably just horny and trying to squeeze it in before hand... Wow..


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

Be upset, ok. Be mad, ok. Be angry, ok. Sure you have a lot to be negative about and I get that though there appears to be a lot of scorekeeping involved. Yes the husband has issues and will have to come across on those, but you have some ground to make up here as well. Saying "I hate my life" really pushed everything off the track. I got something similar from my ex and it was one of the things that turned her into an ex.

I know from experience that when people blurt something out like that in the heat of the moment, they've let their guard down to betray their true feelings. Then the conscious brain takes over and goes into lockdown mode. So my take is you really truly feel this. Now you're planning a trip without him. Do you see the spiral you and he are heading down here?

You'll have to decide if you want to fight for this marriage, no one can decide for you. I am not a counselor, but saying "I hate my life" is not helping your marriage.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> You're right. It just goes to a deeper issue that makes me not want to service him... when it is "service or your day sucks" I guess I just said F it. Sometimes I feel that way... but I do see the need to TRY harder especially when I dont want to...not fair to him to have reacted that way.,.... because I assumed manipulative intentions.. he was probably just horny and trying to squeeze it in before hand... Wow..


Well, from his POV, it was probably "I'd like some appreciation, and if I don't get it then I am going to be feeling very unappreciated". And when you feel unappreciated, then you withdraw to the Man Cave, lift heavy objects, build things and spit. You don't treat your wife and child to a fun-filled weekend at the lake and enjoy every moment. Not unless you want to advance your reputation as a doormat.

Look, most men see sex in a _very_ different way than women do. What you're seeing as a _quid pro quo_ is to him more cause-and-effect. He wasn't saying, "Put out or I'll be hateful" -- indeed, he actually shifted the discussion away from immediate gratification and discussed something that he would like to see happen in your marriage, albeit something overtly sexual. Some husbands can't even do that. No, he was probably saying, "Hey, I'm feeling randy, it's Saturday, we're going to the lake, my wife is right here, the kid is out of the way . . . Opportune time to press my case."

Just to let you know, emotional distance and objectification are natural male responses to sexual rejection, and while ordinarily a man can take it and shrug it off, there are times when HE just wants to say F it, too. Perhaps he's been making allusions to sex all week and you haven't been paying attention. Maybe he's desperate for acknowledgement for his hard work and craves the visceral fulfillment and feelings of appreciation that only sex can bring. And maybe he's got a bit of a temper, clammed up when he saw things weren't going his way, and is going to wait until you're in a much better mood before he discusses things.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

bettertimes said:


> so to everyone... do I call him and talk it over... ask him to come home.. or wait until tonight (after daughter is in bed) to hash this out....I think I will text or call him and see what he is doing..
> 
> I am feeling a little less pissed, a little less manipulated, and much more responsible for my parts in the whole disaster.


I think you call or text him to give him a heads up on an impending apology/make-up session. You don't want him purposely staying late at work to avoid you or coming in the door with his defenses up.

I think a brief call saying, "Sorry about this weekend. I want to talk to you about it after the kid's in bed" would get him in a better mood and set you both up for a very good night.


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

Zzyzx said:


> Be upset, ok. Be mad, ok. Be angry, ok. Sure you have a lot to be negative about and I get that though there appears to be a lot of scorekeeping involved. Yes the husband has issues and will have to come across on those, but you have some ground to make up here as well. Saying "I hate my life" really pushed everything off the track. I got something similar from my ex and it was one of the things that turned her into an ex.
> I really did take the top prize for worst thing said in the argument... most out of line. dangit! I hate being most at fault... especially when I thought people would agree with me.... well, some did agree it was bad timing of his and he should not have asked, but I was waaaaaay out of line.
> 
> 
> ...


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks everybody... that really helped me see clearly


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> I am feeling a little less pissed, a little less manipulated, and much more responsible for my parts in the whole disaster.


Good for you! Being willing to acknowledge your part in a disagreement is a big step to improving your situation. 

Now, you need to work on setting some new dynamics in to place.

As someone else mentioned - talk with each other. Think about how you can approach this is a calm manner - take responsibility for your own actions and reactions, e.g., "This weekend when you approached me for sex, and I flew off the handle, I was feeling ....".

Use "I" sentences in your discussion - take responsibility for your part of it. Apologize for the way you acted and the things you said, ask for him to forgive you, attentively listen to his side of things. Kiss and make-up. 

If there are other issues and resentments in your marriage swirling around, start to look at them forth-rightly. Acknowledge and address the parts that are yours to own. Communicate with your husband. Let him know that you appreciate and care for him (and not just always in words, but in the love language he needs it in.  )

Best wishes.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Better - your attitude is so wonderful and I think you will be able to reconnect with your husband because you are open to seeing the world from his point of view. 

I can say nothing more elegantly than the men and women who have posted have said only to encourage you to understand the way he sees things. My relationship with my husband is so much better now than when I was ignorant of the way men think. 

Men feel love and emotional connection when they have sex with the woman they love. His day would have been full of energy and manly pride - he might have thought "I'm with the two most important people in my life, out for a beautiful day on the lake with my wife who loves and desires me" if you started the day with intimacy. 

He was asking you to top off the day he was planning to enjoy with the show of love and connection in the only way he could feel that connection. 

I don't think it was bad timing - it was the best time to start a day you both looked forward to. Nor do I think it was an attempt at manipulation or trading anything. 

Just a request to make him feel an emotional connection that only you the woman he loves can give him, to make his day. If it happened, you would have been a few hrs late but still would have had the best day. 

I think you are on your way to understanding him as a man and you will be less apt to think he is being manipulative. You two seem have to gotten in to misreading and misunderstanding each other and I think you can get on the right track. 

You start the ball rolling by being the first to acknowledge that you did not understand and you want to do so.Also tell him you need him to understand you as a woman and show you he loves you in the way that you need.

Without his reciprocal understanding, you will not be able to met his needs without resentment and eventual shut down. Don't let that happen.

The very best to you and have fun on the journey of discovery!!


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

bettertimes said:


> Thanks everybody... that really helped me see clearly


Fact is, he wouldn't have blown up the whole weekend if you had not said "I hate my life." 

He's been doing you a favor by communicating exactly what he wants. In a non-charged atmosphere, he asked you to be more sexually involved in your relationship. So, in what looks like the first opportunity to see how you would respond to his request, you not only turn him down, you essentially communicate that everything he's been trying to do, everything he has worked for in your relationship is basically hated by you. 

Your responsbility it to communicate what you want / need from him. And you have to do what you can to meet his needs (within reason, of course.)

You're basically lucky that he did something productive with his anger/disappointment in you and went to work on the cars in the garage. I would have been tempted to go to the lawyers and get the papers rolling. Seriously. With the "I hate my life" statement spoken in that context, you kicked him in the emotional balls. 

If you have resentment, fine. You got to get your grievances on the table. But he took the chance of opening his heart to you and you basically stomped on it in the worst way possible. I know it's a reflection of the hurt you are feeling in the relationship. But you inflicted a major, major wound on your relationship and will have to have an extended talk to walk back the damage you have done. 

Your gameplan tonight should be a major mea culpa followed by straight shooting on how he needs to treat you so that you can feel better about trying to be the wife he deserves.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't agree about him doing you a favor or that you are lucky - I am certain you have been favoring him with communication about the affection you need. 

You are both lucky to have each other try to appreciate that. There are lots of lonely men and women out there in the world. But don't make it adversarial, your are mates on the same ship team up and go forward.

Otherwise I agree with Tex. 

One more thing, don't think of it as opportunist - sounds negative when it isn't at all. He was probably thinking about the day and the possibility for sex from the time you planned the trip. 

That's because your plans included a day with him which meant that part of your joy was to be with him. He just needed to feel that the way he is capable of feeling. I don't think it was a desire to just get himself off and you happened to be there.

Can you see it in that light?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

bettertimes said:


> Thanks everybody... that really helped me see clearly


BRAVO ... I wish my wife was as thoughtful and understanding as you.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> Thanks everybody... that really helped me see clearly


Impressive.

You don`t often see such a quick willingness to see ones own fault/responsibility.

Keep that up and you`ll be fine bettertimes.

Maybe some of that will rub off on your H and make it easy for everyone.

Good luck!!


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Impressive.
> 
> You don`t often see such a quick willingness to see ones own fault/responsibility.
> 
> ...


I am trying... I have been that way for SO long... have sex issues from long ago... before him. Tend to think "men only want one thing" which they do want lots more sex than most women I think... There is a lot wrapped up in that... but I think this is the first time I could really see the whole situation from his point of view. And how I attacked him and walked away... I am willing to and wanting to see reality.. but It is so the way I have been for so long... I keep wanting to find an angle where he is at fault... really, all I can convict him of us is bad timing (in my eyes) Yes, I know in his eyes it was the best time, I get that, and I see how the day could have gone... these are long seeded issues here... things that take work, not just one post on a board... but why not.. maybe one post on the board could be enough insight.... yet... can't we find some fault with him!  Come on, it would be so much easier for me to be mad at him..... cant we assign him some blame? do I really have to change the title to Wife ruined whole weekend over sex. Just seeing the other side doesn't necessarily mean I will see it everytime.... and that he doesnt need to see my side.... think that I will tell him about something somebody said in another post about "filling the love tank" that is what I need ..... a full tank before takeoff (sex) Clock is ticking down.... I keep replaying it in my head.... am I really wrong.... I want to blame someone else.... but I know the I hate my life thing totally tipped the scales way far...ok, I know... I am actually the one that ruined the weekend. That sucks.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I think it's pretty safe to say you both had fault in what happened. Unfortunately for you, you're the one posting in here, and you can only control your own behavior.

Good luck!

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NURSE51 (Sep 22, 2011)

You are in big trouble in your marriage. You are both so mad that both of you are doing "Tit for Tat". Hostility destroys a marriage. Go asap to a marriage counselor now so you can have a peaceful marriage for the remaining years. Please go. My husband and I had the same kind of hateful interactions. We did not realize it was destroying the marriage until just now. One fight too many and he wants out after 30 years together. Sad but true is the fact that I was really in love with him but we were always holding grudges and getting even or punishing the other for perceived slights. And right now, give your husband what he wants in sex . Soon you will see a softening in him. Men need sex to feel the intimacy with there wives and to relieve tensions or insecurities


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

No no - it is not all your fault and you are right the post do seem skewed in favor of your husband. I think since you posted and was in distress the post were geared towards helping you see his request in a different light. Your effort to do that has been wonderful. 

Your reaction was due to your misinterpretation of his desire for you. Sounds like you have had good reason to feel that way. 

You are not totally responsible. He has his 50% responsibility. But with all your willingness to understand him, his reaction was immature and will not get him what either of you need. Be has a lot of work to do along with you. You mentioned that he is not intimate in the way you need and you have asked him for what you need. 

You are at an impasse, he is not giving you what you need therefore you are not giving to him. So you are both equally at fault. In such cases it talks one person to break through the logjam and I think you are doing that. But if he has to be willing to close the gap in order to keep the momentum going. 

So it wont happen with just your work. You may need a third party to help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> ok, I know... I am actually the one that ruined the weekend. That sucks.


No way! It'd suck if you were unable to see the part you played in this. Maybe the events that happened and posting here is a blessing in disguise to help your self-awareness for future happenings, not just in your marriage but life in general. The fact that you can think beyond your own mindset to view this more objectively and read the perspectives given here is commendable. I think the ruined weekend has provided you with a lot more than the trip on the lake could have given.

I'm proud of you.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> In such cases it talks one person to break through the logjam and I think you are doing that. But if he has to be willing to close the gap in order to keep the momentum going.
> 
> So it wont happen with just your work. You may need a third party to help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Co-sign.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't agree you should just give him sex and hope that he sofens. That is not fair to you - that makes his needs more important than yours and they are not. I don't see sex as the central
problem in your marriage and so the solution can not start with sex. I don't think that will get you anywhere because he will be under the impression that behaving badly will get him what he wants. 

The first thing is to communicate your new understanding and at the same time be explicite about what you need so that you both can recover. If his response does not indicate a willingness to change with you then take it up in therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Your posts hit a nerve with me, thus I take to virtual pen and paper. Here are my thoughts and conjectures, take them for what they are worth. - perhaps (probably) nothing. They are strongly worded and based on very limited information. However, some of them may actually apply to your situation.


NURSE51 hits it on the head - You ARE in big trouble in your marriage. As you said, this pattern of behavior isn't really something new. (This is the last straw, etc). This indecent is just thrusting it into the spotlight.

I suspect Catherine602 is on to something. I don't think sex is the core of your problems. I'll bet he feels that you've lost respect for him some time ago. It probably shows in the way you interact with and treat him on all sorts of things and situations, as well as making him feel that the things that are important to him don't matter to you much.

My random advice (based on the above suppositions).

0) if you really want to be married to him 10 years from now, make a serious change in the course of your life. That is, make improving your marriage a goal in the way diet and exercise would be to a person who had a near-fatal heart attack out of the blue. It's not something you can just do and be done with, but something that will have to be ongoing for a long time if you want it to work. Work at half-heatedly or part time, and you'll get the same results as a diet treated that way.

1) Accept him for who he IS, not resenting him for who/what is he not. You seem to hold it against him for having wants and needs. If so, I'm pretty sure he's gotten the impression from you that you wish he was nearly sexless. You might as well tell him he is a bad person because his skin isn't green. He can't help being who and what he is, but if you make him feel bad for just being himself, he's going to privately think to himself (but never tell you) 'the biggest f*ng mistake I ever made was getting married'

I'm not saying to give him free pass on honestly bad behavior, but I suspect your power dynamic is such that you get away declaring him as 'uncaring', 'irresponsible' or all sorts of other things when it's really him not doing exactly what you want him to. (I've seen this several different times once children have come along)

2) Let go of the need to blame and always be the one who is 'right' or 'the victim' or the need to not possibly look bad in the eyes of others or whatever it is. A little ways back you were saying you were desperate to assign him some blame. It didn't matter if it was deserved or valid (how about making 'bad timing in your eyes' a crime?). If you have to always win, or win at all costs, the price of winning will be losing him and the marriage. 

3) Don't shoot the messenger. He tells you directly what he wants. You shoot him down (and shoot back at him) for telling you something you didn't want to hear. The message to him is clear. Telling you the truth about his feelings and wants is going to be more painful to him than ignoring you, or lying to you ('everything is fine dear.')... He'll wise up, clam up, and you'll be blindsided when it all blows up. I would bet he feels pressured by you to always agree with you (or say what he thinks you want to hear).

That behavior is often a difficult obstacle to getting started to turning around the marriage, because he's likely going be reluctant to open up and be truthful about the things he sees negatively. After all, he's been beaten (metaphorically) so many times before for going down THAT road.

4) Don't expect him to read your mind, body-language, etc. You have to communicate by talking - and laying it all out there clearly, and redundantly, and making sure there you both agree on definitions. I'll bet if asked by a close friend or counselor he would say that you hold him responsible for/penalize him for things he had no idea about (because you didn't actually tell him - you just expected him to notice or figure it out).

Think of it this way - you have a job you go to each day. It's a decent job and you think you are doing it pretty well. And after a while, you get you annual review. And in it, you are dinged for not doing 'x' 'y' and 'z' and told that if you don't shape up, you will be fired. But... nobody, especially your boss or manager, ever bother to tell you that 'x', 'y' and 'z' were in your job description and you were expected to do them. Would you still be going to work the next day? In this economy, and needing to pay the bills and support your family, you probably would soldier on (maybe while looking for a new job). But would you continue to trust your boss and respect your employer the way you did before? Or would you be angry, scared, and un-trusting on the inside, while maintaining an exterior facade of 'all is well' while at work each day?

5) Don't 'cry wolf'. Remember the discussion about 'Rain Checks' Earlier in the thread? You HAVE to be specific and not vague about the when/where/how you are going to make it up, and you MUST follow through. That means making it a priority.. obviously more of a priority than at the moment the rain check was issued. Every time you fail to follow through as promised, it's a huge slap in the face telling him that you never really meant what you said, and that he is worth so little that it is ok to 'lie' to him just to get him to shut up and go away. 

You might say 'but something came up' ... well SOMETHING ALWAYS COMES UP. That's life. After about age 13, NOBODY ever completely empties their 'to-do' list, and stuff always happens. But honestly, we all know deep down inside that 98% of the time, if you really wanted to, you could have kept you word. So what you're really saying is that you didn't want it. You have to build a track record of coming though for that 2% of the time life really does throw you the unavoidable curve ball. 

* I'm making the assumption here that when you issue the rain check you are making an honest attempt at being realistic about time and logistics in scheduling.

You are your reputation here. If you consistently deliver on your promises, you earn a lot of trust, and get passes for the times something truly snafus. If you don't, you get talked about, and not nicely, behind your back, and not taken seriously.

6) Don't EVER tell him what he is 'thinking' or 'feeling'. If he ever tells you 'I think ...' or 'I feel ...' or otherwise expresses how he sees things (feeling and perceptions here, not talking about the time the store opens or such), and you come back disagreeing with him, then you have just told him that 1) You claim to know more about what it is like to be him, live his life, think his thoughts and see the world through his eyes than he does, and 2) You've just informed him "this is the official party line" (and those not towing it will go to soviet-style 'reeducation' camps). Do this if you want to kill his respect for you.


Finally, If your marriage has truly devolved into a 'tit for tat' type of score keeping, and you are making serious efforts to change it, you are probably going to have a period of time where he is not yet responding/reciprocating and the things you do go unappreciated. It's ok -- That's because you are taking the lead in things, and it will take him time before he catches on. He has to believe this is a 'real' effort as opposed to previous efforts he may have experienced, AND he has to feel safe enough to take risks. If this happens, just let it go (for a while). The alternative is to suddenly complain to him that he's not 'doing his share'... and at that moment you have completely thrown away all your efforts, because you just told him he failed a test didn't know he was taking.

Now, all this said, I am not telling you to be a doormat, or to accept irresponsible behavior from him, or give things an infinite amount of time to resolve.

I'm also not saying that you don't legitimate issues with him, nor does he lack responsibility. If you've lost respect for him, there is the question of 'why'?. He may need to 'man up' and work hard to seriously change the dynamic between you two. But without hearing from him, I been focusing on the things you've said, and possible changes that could come from you.

I wish you well.
Your situation is not an easy one from any angle.

Regards
-A


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

Maybe you should tell him "If you got yourself a better attitude, I would be more inclined to want to have sex with you." That way, you get what you want and he gets what he wants. And it will stop those pending temper tantrums in their tracks too.


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## HappyWife40 (Aug 23, 2011)

HelloooNurse said:


> Maybe you should tell him "If you got yourself a better attitude, I would be more inclined to want to have sex with you." That way, you get what you want and he gets what he wants. And it will stop those pending temper tantrums in their tracks too.


The flip side of this is - if he had more sex, he would probably have a better attitude. With all the happy endorphins rushing around your brain, it is hard to get p!ssy. I tried this with my husband many years ago and watched him become more relaxed and content with life in general. Just my opinion.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

not trying to be disrespectful, but some of you ladies are making suggestions that are leaning into the realm of using sex to get what you want, or basically dont give him what he wants until you get what you want. this doesnt necessarily shock me by any means, but it seems to be in the subconscience of some of your thoughts. just an observation i ecpect to get roasted over


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> . yet... can't we find some fault with him!  Come on, it would be so much easier for me to be mad at him..... cant we assign him some blame? do I really have to change the title to Wife ruined whole weekend over sex. Just seeing the other side doesn't necessarily mean I will see it everytime.... and that he doesnt need to see my side.... think that I will tell him about something somebody said in another post about "filling the love tank" that is what I need ..... a full tank before takeoff (sex) Clock is ticking down.... I keep replaying it in my head.... am I really wrong.... I want to blame someone else.... but I know the I hate my life thing totally tipped the scales way far...ok, I know... I am actually the one that ruined the weekend. That sucks.





Well this time it`s on you BUT I said "Maybe some of that will rub off on him" because I know it takes two to make it work and two to screw it up.

He undoubtedly has some work to do as well.

How to get him to see it could be a problem, could be simple though.

You won`t know until you both try to talk it out while being able to see how you both have screwed things up at times.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

This sounds just like my wife and I. Same exact situation....only different vacations and weekends ruined.

Glad you came to this forum. My wife did not. Now I talk on the "coping with infidelity" forum here.

Time to get some serious communication going between the two of you....like now. Let down your guard and try your best to have him do the same. If you keep this up you will continue putting up walls and having silent arguments until something bad happens. And when really bad things happen, you cant take them back. You have to live with them for the rest of your life.


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## it-guy (Jan 6, 2011)

Time for both of you to work togeather. No walls....complete openness. You are married, and you are supposed to be able to talk about anything.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I see no reason why you couldn't have told him about your issues and why you can't have intercourse, but also told him how much you desire him regardless. You then could of used oral or manual to connect with him.

If you had that kind of mindset, and were more in the moment with him and expressing interest even when you can't follow through he wouldn't take it to heart. And if you backed those comments up by initiating at times - even if you just grab him first thing in the morning for a hand job he will see you mean what you say. Then on occassion when you can't, or time doesn't allow for it it won't be a big deal because you have already demonstrated you would LIKE to it's just a timing issue. 

If you start making your husband and your marriage your number one priority - you will be pleasently suprised how your happiness and needs will suddenly become his.

One other point is golden. Don't be loose with crappy comments. They will stay on the brain for along time and fester resentment. If in doubt, silence is safer on both sides.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> My feelings: I said I hated my life because any freaking time I ASK for something (going on the boat... whatever) I will not get it. Or if I get what I want, he is sure to complain.
> Help?


You hate your life because of this.

You have to know that he hates his life for the same reason. Simply substitute the word sex for "something".

You must know that sex is very important to your husband on a deep emotional level, and a lack of sex affects him exactly as much as the hurt you feel when he does not meet your needs.

So, here you are waiting for him to meet your needs to make you feel sexual, and he is waiting for you to meet his sexual needs before he will meet your emotional needs. Catch 22.

Is it solvable? Yes. But, the first thing is that you must know that the lack of sex is every bit as troubling to him, as the lack of "something" is to you.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

HappyWife40 said:


> The flip side of this is - if he had more sex, he would probably have a better attitude. With all the happy endorphins rushing around your brain, it is hard to get p!ssy. I tried this with my husband many years ago and watched him become more relaxed and content with life in general. Just my opinion.


:iagree:

its as simple as this for most men.

your a very wise woman.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

okeydokie said:


> not trying to be disrespectful, but some of you ladies are making suggestions that are leaning into the realm of using sex to get what you want, or basically dont give him what he wants until you get what you want. this doesnt necessarily shock me by any means, but it seems to be in the subconscience of some of your thoughts. just an observation i ecpect to get roasted over


No disrespect thanks for posting this it is helpful for me to keep in mind the male interpretation of my thinking. I want to understand why you feel this way and I don't want you to be or feel attacked because I for on want to deepen my understanding of men and that is not possible if you feel that there is a cabal of women. We do think differently and we can help each other if we can express ourselves without concerns about being cooked. 

I just wanted to repond to your post by asking what she should do given that, her misunderstanding of her husband is one issue but his attitude and unwillingness to give her the affection she needs is another. She said that she discussed this need with him and he has not changed. It appears that she continues to have sex with him. Maybe not exactly the way he wants but he still gets it. What should she do? Keep talking and giving him more of what he needs?

That is what I don't get. I don't understand why many men seem to think that sex should be exactly what they want while giving no importance to the average womens need for affection? I'll ask this - what would motivate the OP to initiate sex with a man who will not show her he is making love to her? I could ask what is she getting out of the sex? She is getting off hopefully and so is he, she is not feeling loved because he is not affectionate and romantic and he does not feel wanted because she will not initiate. Moreover, he is petulant and retaliatory when he does not get sex. 

Neither of them is happy with the present situation and neither is getting enough emotional satisfaction to give more. If my husband had tantrums I would lose respect for him and I would not give him a bj or hj to prevent them. The way to handle a 2 yr old is to ignore the tantrum. The way to handle aan is to do what you can to take care of him. I respect my husband and a similar situation i have given him a bj when we are short on time. I feel to give to him because practically my essential needs are met and then some. He gets the same. He is no where near perfect but he cuts me a lot of slack so I don't think twice about his faults. 

My point is when there are problems in the relationship and a woman with draws it is not an attempt to ca trip a man's behavior it is a consequence of the problems. When I was unhappy I avoided sex as much as possible because I did not feel the love I needed to be sexual. My behavior and my husbands behavior caused the problems and we both suffered. 

I think only immature men think that sexual withdrawal is an attempt by a women to control them. There is a lot more to it than that. Sometimes it is reasonable for a women to not have sex with her husband. Some things kill desire, poor hygiene, being childish, verbal and physical abuse are some.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Catherine602 said:


> No disrespect thanks for posting this it is helpful for me to keep in mind the male interpretation of my thinking. I want to understand why you feel this way and I don't want you to be or feel attacked because I for on want to deepen my understanding of men and that is not possible if you feel that there is a cabal of women. We do think differently and we can help each other if we can express ourselves without concerns about being cooked.
> 
> I just wanted to repond to your post by asking what she should do given that, her misunderstanding of her husband is one issue but his attitude and unwillingness to give her the affection she needs is another (which happened first?). She said that she discussed this need with him and he has not changed. It appears that she is stop having sex with him. Maybe not exactly the way he wants but he still gets it. What should she do? Keep talking and giving him more of what he needs (not more, but she should keep talking, as should he)?
> That is what I don't get. I don't understand why many men seem to think that sex should be exactly what they want while giving no importance to the average womens need for affection? I'll ask this - what would motivate the OP to initiate sex with a man who will not show her he is making love to her? I could ask what is she getting out of the sex (my wife moans like lassie during sex so she is getting something out of it, but it doesnt make her want it more often)? She is getting off hopefully and so is he, she is not feeling loved because he is not affectionate and romantic and he does not feel wanted because she will not initiate (initiate or reciprocate?). Moreover, he is petulant and retaliatory when he does not get sex (or fed up trying?).
> ...


i will continue to maintain my strong belief that an enthusiasticly intimate couple is normally a happy couple in all aspects of the marriage. there are too many "ifs" and "buts" to accurately diagnose every individual situation. there are many men and women on here who "get it", that is understand that marriage is give and take. when it gets bad and it feels like you are the giver and never get back, its trouble.

you speak of her husband's tantrum by withdrawing when he didnt get sex, wasnt her outburst of "i hate my life" also a tantrum? they need to have a serious talk and some people just have real problems doing that.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

OK your supposition that couples that enjoy intimacy are happy is very true. However, an association is not cause and effect nor temporality. It is more than likely that happy people are more passionate than unhappy people. Having sex does not make people happy, a mutually caring and loving relationship makes people happy. 

If you believe that having lots of enthusiastic sex will make you happy, you will not be happy. If your partner is not happy then having sex to make you happy is not sustainable. I can ask why she must comply with this. There is a subtle and sometimes not so subtle hostility to a woman's need for affection and romance. Men who think that being romantic and affectionate is a bother or silly are as dismissive and unloving as a woman who starves a loving man of sex because she thinks it is silly. 

Selfishness is at the root of the gulf between men and women. I also think that some men are stuck in a previous era where they were not challenged to consider a woman's needs as important to the success of the union. That was true when women had few choices but no longer. 

This is a transitional period of relationships where women expect a mutually satisfying relationship. Many men get it and that is Big Bad Wolfs beautiful message. I think the OPs husband does not get it. He expects her to comply with providing his sexual needs and then if he thinks it's important or feels like it he will provide for her. 

I think the people who are advising her to just have sex are in this mind set. I think his needs are no more important than her's and she does not need to ignore her needs to give to him. That would amount to servicing him and not having loving intimacy. The suggestion about giving him a bj is a prime example. It is not humanly possible to continue to give give give when the tanks are empty. If they had sex they would be getting something out of it. In these circumstances a bj would amount to servicing him. I doubt if she would continue sexual contact if she felt used for a service. 

Finally who cares what came first, they are where they are assigning blame will not make the person who started the mess any more likely to break the stalemate. Energy would be better expended in helping them to come together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Another thing you said "I get it" but you are not giving the man in this relationship credit! Why is that. It is a paradox that you talk about the importance of a mans needs. I wonder if you really feel that or that you are just giving lip service. Are you being resolute enough with your wife? Do you really believe that a man's sexual needs are normal? Just sayin' 

Believe me I would not "get it" if my husband did not. I have to say that he is the one who should get the props because he has had to be something that has been difficult for him. 

His father and mother were very traditional that was his model. He learned to communicate, show appreciation, be affectionate and help with chores. He is dominant and naturally playful loves caring for people. 

So give the guy some props. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> OK your supposition that couples that enjoy intimacy are happy is very true. However, an association is not cause and effect nor temporality. It is more than likely that happy people are more passionate than unhappy people. Having sex does not make people happy, a mutually caring and loving relationship makes people happy.


But sex is inextricable from a caring and loving relationship. You can't state, "No sex until we have a caring and loving relationship," because sex is a required component.



Catherine602 said:


> If you believe that having lots of enthusiastic sex will make you happy, you will not be happy.


That depends on why you are unhappy. I think many sexless couples, perhaps most, have other significant issues in play. However, many sexless couples are just sexless. Add sex to the marriage and you instantly get a good marriage.



Catherine602 said:


> If your partner is not happy then having sex to make you happy is not sustainable. I can ask why she must comply with this.


I honestly don't get this logic. I think we've been over this before, but I don't think that not being happy is an adequate reason for depriving you spouse of something he needs any more than not being hungry is an adequate reason for not feeding your children.



Catherine602 said:


> There is a subtle and sometimes not so subtle hostility to a woman's need for affection and romance. Men who think that being romantic and affectionate is a bother or silly are as dismissive and unloving as a woman who starves a loving man of sex because she thinks it is silly.


I don't think there's any more hostility to a woman's need for affection than there is to a man's need for sex. Both sexes are capable of selfish neglect of the other.



Catherine602 said:


> I think the people who are advising her to just have sex are in this mind set. I think his needs are no more important than her's and she does not need to ignore her needs to give to him. That would amount to servicing him and not having loving intimacy. The suggestion about giving him a bj is a prime example. It is not humanly possible to continue to give give give when the tanks are empty. If they had sex they would be getting something out of it. In these circumstances a bj would amount to servicing him. I doubt if she would continue sexual contact if she felt used for a service.


The people advising her to have sex are just being practical. When two people are engaged in keeping score in a marriage, each partner feels like they've been taken advantage of and given more than they've taken. The short-term solution to breaking that stalemate is for one partner to just put it aside and start giving to the other. That lowers the defenses and makes a long-term solution possible where each spouse is satisfied. Advising a woman to continue keeping score and not give in first just keeps the stalemate in place.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> But sex is inextricable from a caring and loving relationship. You can't state, "No sex until we have a caring and loving relationship," because sex is a required component.
> 
> 
> That depends on why you are unhappy. I think many sexless couples, perhaps most, have other significant issues in play. However, many sexless couples are just sexless. Add sex to the marriage and you instantly get a good marriage.
> ...


Hmmm... when I read Catherine's post it didn't come off as a recommendation of "keeping score" to me. Seemed rather just a commentary that both spouse's needs are important (she was giving you some good insight into the inside workings of a female mind, I think. ).

A relationship is not sustainable unless both partners are willing to give, condensed down to this:



> _"Success in marriage does not come merely through finding the right mate, but through *being* the right mate_.” ~ Barnett Brickner


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

wow, you guys and gals are awesome... so many responses! And such great insight, really thought out responses. Thank you all SO much for your help... It really has made a difference

ok, so we made up. I found out that day at 5pm that I had to get up at 3am. and it crossed my mind to back out. But I had told him I wanted to talk with him after kiddo was in bed. I went to sleep early (normal for early days) but this time I told him to wake me up when she was in bed (we take turns putting her to bed) So I heard him come in and I woke right up and told him I wanted to talk about the weekend. Told him I was sorry for saying I hate my life, that it was so wrong to say that, could have handled it much better... He said there still would have been a fight (even if I did the raincheck) but I said, yeah, but if I hadnt said that, maybe we still would have gone to the lake. That me saying I hate my life just made it worse. More things said, and he told me how he felt just killed every time I turned him down with this excuse or that excuse(granted there are real excuses and I need him to respect those) Really opened up to me. Thought it was a very good make up talk.. then he got some special from me (bj) Hate those... and that kind of later made me think I made up too much.... with the bj.... that I was more wrong than him. But whatever... I am going to go with that. I really want things to change, and the one thing he has ALWAYS asked for is more sex, different sex, etc... I am going to do my very best EVERY time he asks... and initiate more. If I made up "too much" with the bj, so be it... like somebody said, we are at an impasse... Guess I will be the logbreaker..BUT I will be communicating MY needs as well. 

I did talk with him about the lake.. he doesn't really want to go because of some of the people going, but I really do. He is willing to go.. Weather he sees that he needs to do things I want to do TOO, or is just willing to go along, I appreciate his going. I always do whatever HE suggests... but feel we rarely do what I want.. and if we do, he complains.... This is one of those things I need changed from him. I am going to stand up for getting to do some things I want to do... that is fair. In return, I will be giving him more of what he wants... more sex, more of me initiating it as well. And yes, I realize making our marriage stronger is more than the fun activities we do together. 

nurse - I do agree there is trouble.... kind of underground, unaddressed. Both of us have just kind of stopped fighting about the same ole fights. But I can see it in his mannerisms, body language... etc that there is resentment. Im sure he can see the same with me. ONE of problems is that we never do anything as a couple (besides working on the business or the house) We do fun things as a family, but never as a couple. I decided to let him buy that motorcycle bike this weekend.... It is something we both enjoy and we're going on a ride, just him and me on Sat. Will help us reconnect by having actual FUN with eachother instead of just the business, and the house (work).

Anubis - You're right about sex not being the core of the problems.. it is the result. I've got a LONG way to go on accepting his manly needs, but with the help of this thread, I DO realize them as NEEDS not just getting off. Quite the concept for myself but will have huge results if I just keep believing that until I really believe it... until the concept really sinks in..See, I can now actually see that, but I just need to hang onto it until it becomes a part of me (fake it till u make it) believe it until it becomes real belief. 
I do kind of have him trained to not make waves with me. And I had been wondering why he never opens up to me......DUH... DUH.... bells ringing here.. WAKE THE F UP>.. Need to figure out exactly what behaviors I am doing (as they happen or are about to happen) and cut it out. THat is tough. You are prolly right, keep the peace now and have complete blowup later. I have experienced those blowups.. unex[pected... but gotta say, there is now just mostly peace with that only sometimes noticeable underccurent.. mostly ignored by both of us...
I always honor my rainchecks.. and often put redemption times on them. (tonight... in the morning..etc)
When he says how it is, I do say no it isnt, its like this... We all think we're right. I think a simple rephrase (as suggested on here) of always making it I FEEL this, not just you're wrong, its like this, period. Good point...
I will also take your suggestion about giving it time before i start thinking... well s**t I am giving all this sex and initiating, where is MY return... I will give it a full day until I expect that..... KIDDING! But really, I will give him some time to "believe" the channges... I'm so scared.. nervous of the challenge... I just need to keep the idea that these are his manly NEEDS. nothing bad amoral or wrong, just simply his NEEDS as a male... not just wants but NEEDS. That helps.
I havent lost respect for him...just got hardned a bit...I feel I took on some of the behavior he has shown me for years... I feel unguilty in dishing it back out and saying... what, you do it to me! Really he does, but I need to get back to my nicer self...who I used to be,.and want to be again. I was always the peacemaker as a kid... I can do it again.

Hellonurse/happy wife... yeah, its pretty tought to just say do this and I will do this.... Been trying that for 20 years with him... still not working. I am willing to go totally freaking outside of my beliefs and adopt new ones here... hell, maybe I'll turn hornier than him...

eagleclaw - that's the thing... I DONT always want to. I want it, but I am happy with much less often than he is. I say I really want it to but for this problem I cant.. because I would be lying. I don;'t know how to want it more frequently....
eagleclaw / hicksI do think if I could satisfy him sexually better, he would be more relaxed (seen that) and wanting to satisfy me in other ways... I think I am going to have to be the one to make the change.. and wait for some response (and yes, spell out what I want in due time)

And I quote
"If your partner is not happy then having sex to make you happy is not sustainable. I can ask why she must comply with this.""
I honestly don't get this logic. I think we've been over this before, but I don't think that not being happy is an adequate reason for depriving you spouse of something he needs any more than not being hungry is an adequate reason for not feeding your children."
Being unhappy is not a reason to deny sex. Being unhappy is also not a reason to deny closeness. One party can give the other what they want (sex/closeness/whatever) because the other party needs it. BUT, it is not sustainable if only one half is doing all the giving. It only works like that for a while. 
The emotional part of it is that when I feel my husband has "wronged" me in some way, the last thing I want to do is get intimate/close with him (ie sex) And if this feeling of wronging continues, we hold onto that feeling and keep feeling it more and stronger, and want less and less sex. And guys become more distant and cranky and ungiving. Its that catch 22 situation

Bottom line for me... I have a little twinkle of understanding of men that I am excited about and want to make into a real belief. I can see the sex as a NEED for him now.. and peacefully know it as that rather than thinking he has got to get off and is being really uncaring. I am going to venture into uncharted territory and full on do it.. no pun intended  and let him have the wifey he has always wanted in me sexually (no I am not turning into a hooker... I do have some boundaries there... but I think he will be wildly happy with what he gets). I will give it time to sink in for him.. and for me... but will also make sure my needs do get met too. I think by taking that step to break the catch 22, we can move on to a much happier marriage. Only took 20 plus years and this forum to figure that out... and understand it.

Thanks All!


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

You go girl! It is amazing what a change of attitude can do. I wish more wives would understand their husband's sexuality. It is indeed all about meeting each other's needs. I think you will also find that the more you experiment with being sexual, the more you will enjoy it. When you meet your husband's needs, he will want to meet your needs, and you will have a happy marriage.


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## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Not that you'll be likely to appreciate my perspective, but here it is:
> 
> If you turn the whole thing around and view it from his perspective (and I admit I don't know him or your specific situation) I can see him waking up and thinking, _"you know what would get my weekend trip to the lake off to a great start? Getting some sexual appreciation from my wife." _ Now, he might not have handled the situation with the greatest of tact and diplomacy, but hearing "I hate my life" in response isn't just going to invoke the feelings of rejection that all men struggle with, it's going to undermine everything that he feels he's contributed to your health, safety and well-being for weeks, months, or years.
> 
> ...


Good post.
I wouldn't(in the position of the H) cancel the trip, but would have resentment as well. If this has been an ongoing issue maybe it's the build-up of a several rejections and he now has the question in his head if there is any love and passion left?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Hmmm... when I read Catherine's post it didn't come off as a recommendation of "keeping score" to me. Seemed rather just a commentary that both spouse's needs are important (she was giving you some good insight into the inside workings of a female mind, I think. ).


Honestly, the post didn't seem clear to me. She seemed to acknowledge that one spouse needs to break a stalemate. But she also seemed to excuse or validate the wife's position in a stalemate because her needs for affection aren't being met. Stalemates usually occur because neither spouse's needs are being met.

I fully acknowledge that men frequently share blame in the no sex/no affection stalemate that plagues many marriages. But the solution is not to insist that your position is perfectly valid. The solution is to recognize that your spouse's position is perfectly valid.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> Bottom line for me... *I have a little twinkle of understanding of men that I am excited about and want to make into a real belief*. I can see the sex as a NEED for him now.. and peacefully know it as that rather than thinking he has got to get off and is being really uncaring. I am going to venture into uncharted territory and full on do it.. no pun intended  and let him have the wifey he has always wanted in me sexually (no I am not turning into a hooker... I do have some boundaries there... but I think he will be wildly happy with what he gets). I will give it time to sink in for him.. and for me... but will also make sure my needs do get met too. I think by taking that step to break the catch 22, we can move on to a much happier marriage. Only took 20 plus years and this forum to figure that out... and understand it.
> 
> Thanks All!


:smthumbup:

Good for YOU!!!

Food for thought:



> _"The thing always happens that you really believe in; and the belief in a thing makes it happen_." ~ Frank Lloyd Wright


God Bless.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

bettertimes said:


> Being unhappy is not a reason to deny sex. Being unhappy is also not a reason to deny closeness. One party can give the other what they want (sex/closeness/whatever) because the other party needs it. BUT, it is not sustainable if only one half is doing all the giving. It only works like that for a while.


Right. My advise is not a long-term strategy of being unhappy, but sucking it up. My advise not to deny sex is a short-term fix to break a stalemate. As you've seen, when each spouse digs in and tallies up the wrongs done against him or her, the stalemate will not be broken by convincing the other spouse that the wrongs done to you are greater than the wrongs done to him. The stalemate is broken by one spouse acknowledging that the other has a legitimate complaint and trying to address that while being willing to delay, not necessarily forgo, reciprocity.



bettertimes said:


> The emotional part of it is that when I feel my husband has "wronged" me in some way, the last thing I want to do is get intimate/close with him (ie sex) And if this feeling of wronging continues, we hold onto that feeling and keep feeling it more and stronger, and want less and less sex. And guys become more distant and cranky and ungiving. Its that catch 22 situation


True again. It's sometimes cruel and unfair the way the sexes relate. But if you can continue to see your husband's side of the issue, you will feel wronged less. Perhaps misunderstood, which is a lot better than wronged. And that will help you feel closer to your husband. Which will help you have sex more. Which will help your husband be more motivated to do things for you. The cycle really can be reversed into a positive direction.



bettertimes said:


> Bottom line for me... I have a little twinkle of understanding of men that I am excited about and want to make into a real belief. I can see the sex as a NEED for him now.. and peacefully know it as that rather than thinking he has got to get off and is being really uncaring. I am going to venture into uncharted territory and full on do it.. no pun intended  and let him have the wifey he has always wanted in me sexually (no I am not turning into a hooker... I do have some boundaries there... but I think he will be wildly happy with what he gets). I will give it time to sink in for him.. and for me... but will also make sure my needs do get met too. I think by taking that step to break the catch 22, we can move on to a much happier marriage. Only took 20 plus years and this forum to figure that out... and understand it.
> 
> Thanks All!


Your attitude, plus the glimmer of understanding of the male psyche you've recently gained, put you ahead of probably 90% of wives out there. It really is a big, big step to happiness.

I suggest one more thing for your husband's benefit (and yours). Buy him The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 by Athol Kay. It's not a couple's book. He should be the one to read it. But it gives many insights into the female psyche and gives an effective MAP (marriage action plan) that men can put into effect to make their wives happier, and get more sex.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Wow, what a change of perception. Good on you. I think you will find your marriage will improve drastically. He will notice the change and wants he believes it I would imagine you will find he is much more driven to try and do for you as he will be absolutely in awe of the one he loves.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> Honestly, the post didn't seem clear to me. She seemed to acknowledge that one spouse needs to break a stalemate. But she also seemed to excuse or validate the wife's position in a stalemate because her needs for affection aren't being met. Stalemates usually occur because neither spouse's needs are being met.
> 
> I fully acknowledge that men frequently share blame in the no sex/no affection stalemate that plagues many marriages. But the solution is not to insist that your position is perfectly valid. The solution is to recognize that your spouse's position is perfectly valid.


You seem to come back to the man's need for sex being the most important need and women are always at fault when they starve there husband. This to me is garbage because it does not work in the real world. Sex is not like feeding children, if you think that then you don't understand the difference between sex and sexual intimacy. A parent feeding their child is giving the child a primal need for survival. The parents get the satisfaction of nurturing a being they brought into the world they don't expect anything from the child. Unconditional love - not adult love. 

Any relationship is an exchange of satisfactions - there is no unconditional love. It is an exchange of needs. What you are saying is that the woman acquires a child-man when she gets married and must feed it sex and expect nothing in return. If she gets something she should be eternally grateful because the child man is not required to give. 

As you can see by the post on this forum that is not working for men. The men who are successful at relationships get that it is not a a sexual feeding frenzy and it has nothing to do with how much sex he gets out of the relationship but how much they are able to give to each other. A giving man will get what he needs a man who is looking to be fed sex as a requirement to being nice to his wife will fail. These are the men who seem to be sex starved angry and insistent that if they could get sex everything would be hunky-dory. 

It should be obvious that it does not work if you have read at lest 20 post from men trying to get sex. I would venture to say the emotional connection that a man can muster is the biggest predictor of the amount of intimacy in the relationship. MEM gets it, Big Bad Wolf gets it. They are not too proud to say that they are careful to met their wives needs. They seem to be in touch with their feelings and seem to like women and understand them. They seem to accept like their softer emotional expressive part as much as their male. because they love both parts, they can love their wives. 

Conrad is the same. His post are a poetic script of a man in the process of integrating both parts of himself. I am saying that the change in the man from totally male or totally female to an integration of both parts is the key to success in the relationship. Why is it on the man, because he is the leader. He is the leader by nature and biology. Not all men are leaders in their public lives but they shuld be in their relationship with their partners. 

A man who thinks in terms of male the need to win in a relationship and then maybe grant the woman happiness seem to be angry and deprived. They don't seem like being positive emotional or communicative of positive nature with a woman which are female traits. There is much hostility and derision, and contempt for woman. They can't embrace those in themselves because they don't like this parts. 

Competition and one-up-manship is the way men succeed in society. They win the other guy loses, alpha all the way. It is the way they express masculinity. But to be pure alpha in a relationship does not work obviously because it is not working. In a relationship with a woman the is no win - lose. There is no defeating the adversary to remain king of the hill. A man has to give he has to let his wife win in key ares. What!! He has to communicate, yield gracefully, make her happy by being the type of man she needs, he has to be compassionate and have expressive and, avoid losing control when he does not get what he wants. In response, a woman usually responds by being a woman, vulnerable, loving, giving. He would never reveal these to a male adversary because he would be gutted.

This is not a man becoming a p***sy it is manning up. A man leads the relationship so that his partner can relax and trust him. Trust brings out the best in the average women. We don't compete like men, we don't have to destroy an adversary, negotiate, we don't retreat into silence when we have emotions we express them. When we come to a relationship tgats what we bring. Men have to take off their pure alpha hat and embrace the male and female parts. Women don't need alpha to be successful in a relationship.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

My husband is dominant and driven to win in his profession. He has been that way from the time we were kids in the neighborhood. He had to learn how to express himself, how to yield to me in the important ways. He communicates the way I need, he is affectionate, he does not withdraw when we have a disagreement. It has been hard for him to do these things because they do not come naturally. He learned from his father and mother- they have a loving relationship. He changed for me and I love him deeply for that. 

He loved me enough to do it. He has to be a archetypal man in his work and an integrated man in our relationship. I am naturally submissive. If he was like some men who think in terms of "they get what they want first", then we would not have survived more than a few years. . I had and still have much to learn about men but he is the one who changed first and taught me to trust, to grow from a sexually repressed girl to an adventurous lover. I trust that he will protect and care for me so I have no inhibitions to satisfying his needs. We hit a serious bump when we had kids because of my lack of understanding. We are back to being good now. 
it does not work in a relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Bettertimes there was a typo I meant - having sex to make your partner happy and not get what you need will not last in the long run. You will shut down If he does not make major permanent changes. You will feel used. 

I did not mean that you should change and hope for the best you need MC. - i think you will find bumps in the road ahead. you have it right you are giving to him with the expectation that he will not disengage from you when he is angry, that he stops being self - centered, and that he is as affectionate as you need. it will not be easy for him and he may slip back into former behaviors. 

It is up to you to set boundaries not give more than you get and to speak up about your needs and desires. It is difficult for a selfish person to change. They have to face the possibility of lost very often before they finally get it. Selfish people don't appreciate others but they do when they don't have the person anymore. 

You will need to be strong and I really don't think you will be able to do it without MC. It is unlikely that your change alone will get a concomitant lasting change in him. It is just a start and a strong indication of your love and willingness to meat him halfway. He may see it as a vindication of his right to get what he wants. You need MC to help him see this change in you in it's proper light. 

One other thing you apologized but did he? If he did not that does nit bode well and the bj was a little too much. You should have gotten a heart felt apology from him and then loving mutually satisfying sex. Mutuality is the key. If he did not apologize and you gave him the extra of a blow job you gave much more Than you got. In fact you did not get much. Be careful, you may get resentful if he does not change in major ways. The lack of an apology in response to your is natural in an empathetic person. An entitled person my see no reason to do so. 

If I understand, he talked about his feelings, was he equally as interested in yours. Did you tell him what touched off your statement and did he express understanding. If not, you are falling into a pattern of giving too much and not setting boundaries. You are destined to shut down again. The boundaries are that you expect him to recognize that the tantrum way not right and to tell you how he will make sure he does not do it again. Be careful, understand but expect to be understood too or call him on it. BTW you both messed up the W/E. If you took full responsibility, you did not really understand the advice. 

You are trading in one set of misconceptions for another. You got the male thing but you seem to still be placing your needs as secondary. If you did not think that you would have expected an apology, a commitment not to do it again and a discussion about your needs when he was opening up. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> You seem to come back to the man's need for sex being the most important need and women are always at fault when they starve there husband. This to me is garbage because it does not work in the real world.


I haven't written that anywhere. It's interesting that when I write that both spouses have can have legitimate complaints that you infer that a man's need for sex trumps a woman's need for intimacy.



Catherine602 said:


> Sex is not like feeding children, if you think that then you don't understand the difference between sex and sexual intimacy. A parent feeding their child is giving the child a primal need for survival. The parents get the satisfaction of nurturing a being they brought into the world they don't expect anything from the child. Unconditional love - not adult love.


It is true that sex is not necessary for survival. Neither is affection. My point was that sex is necessary for a happy marriage. But I'll grant you the point that a husband won't die from a lack of sex and a wife won't die from lack of affection.



Catherine602 said:


> Any relationship is an exchange of satisfactions - there is no unconditional love. It is an exchange of needs. What you are saying is that the woman acquires a child-man when she gets married and must feed it sex and expect nothing in return. If she gets something she should be eternally grateful because the child man is not required to give.


Again, it's interesting that you infer this point of view. I have given practical advise for how to break a stalemate. I suppose the OP could continue keeping score and adopt your point of view that she should not be the first to blink in their game of chicken on the way to divorce. But I don't think that's the way to happiness. I think the way to happiness is to swallow her pride, start providing for her husband in a loving manner, and then work on asking for him to better meet her needs.



Catherine602 said:


> As you can see by the post on this forum that is not working for men. The men who are successful at relationships get that it is not a a sexual feeding frenzy and it has nothing to do with how much sex he gets out of the relationship but how much they are able to give to each other. A giving man will get what he needs a man who is looking to be fed sex as a requirement to being nice to his wife will fail. These are the men who seem to be sex starved angry and insistent that if they could get sex everything would be hunky-dory.


I certainly agree that successful marriages are partnerships where each spouse's needs are being met. But I find it interesting that you insist that men should not withhold affection in order to get sex, but women are perfectly justified in withholding sex to get affection.



Catherine602 said:


> I am saying that the change in the man from totally male or totally female to an integration of both parts is the key to success in the relationship. Why is it on the man, because he is the leader. He is the leader by nature and biology. Not all men are leaders in their public lives but they shuld be in their relationship with their partners.


I actually agree with this. I think Athol Kay gets it better than almost anyone. That's why I advised the OP to buy his book for her husband. But we have to work with the facts at hand in this situation. The OP's husband is not on this forum. If he were, I would advise him to change his behavior. Since the wife is the poster here, I have to advise her to change her behavior. Because that is the way the stalemate will be broken. If I advised her that she is justified in keeping score and withholding sex, I would be contributing to harming her marriage. And I respect marriage too much to do that. I want to see her and her husband happy. That means the stalemate must be broken.



Catherine602 said:


> Competition and one-up-manship is the way men succeed in society. They win the other guy loses, alpha all the way. It is the way they express masculinity. But to be pure alpha in a relationship does not work obviously because it is not working. In a relationship with a woman the is no win - lose. There is no defeating the adversary to remain king of the hill. A man has to give he has to let his wife win in key ares. What!! He has to communicate, yield gracefully, make her happy by being the type of man she needs, he has to be compassionate and have expressive and, avoid losing control when he does not get what he wants. In response, a woman usually responds by being a woman, vulnerable, loving, giving. He would never reveal these to a male adversary because he would be gutted.


I agree with this. Pure alpha is a failing strategy in a long-term relationship. But I think this is where your ignorance of male and female psychology shows up. Primarily beta is just as bad a strategy. Men need a balance to be most effective. And most men in sexless marriages didn't end up that way by being too alpha. They were too beta. A pure alpha is actually pretty rare these days. Most men defer too much to the women in their lives, and thus kill any sexual attraction these women have for them.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

PHTlump and Catherine - you are both right. 

The issue, I think, is simply one of perspective. In this thread, we have a wife - bettertimes - who has been completely open to understanding the part she played in the particular weekend incident, and has been able to have her 'eyes opened', so to speak on a very important need of her husband's. It has been a refreshing thread, to say the least, from that perspective because we don't often see someone who is so willing to accept their own responsibility for their own faults and to be so willing to do what may need to be done to correct it. I salute her for this.

However, if this would have been her husband who had started the thread - different perspective entirely - different set of comments. We wouldn't be able to say to his wife - did you consider his needs? What would have happened if you would have tried to meet his need that morning? Nope, nothing would happen because we can only advise the person who comes here with the problem - even if the other parnter needs to be making changes or having an enlightenment too. Nothing we say compels the person's partner to do what would be beneficial. We can only try and enlighten the one who comes here for advice.

If Mr. bettertimes came on instead, trying to break the stalemate would have had to take a completely different tack. So, I see both of your points, and think that you are both correct as I think some of the discussion has devolved into generalities.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

bettertimes:

I don't think you made up too much with the bj. Sorry you hate them, but by doing that (most likely) you were saying to your husband:

1) I really AM sorry
2) I really did Listen to what you said
3) I really do love you and want you to be happy
4) I'm still your girlfriend.

That last one might need a little explanation, I suppose.

When you and your husband met, and started dating, you became his Girlfriend. A guy has certain expectations of his Girlfriend: you like him, you respect him, you admire him, you want to be with him, you enjoy spending time with him. In many (most?) cases, you probably did your utmost to impress him, up to and including oral. This made him very happy, because it made him feel admired, liked, respected, and very, very well-disposed to you.

Then you got engaged. Not because he analytically did the math and saw that you were the right girl for him, but because he figured that if you were that good as a Girlfriend, you'd probably be that much better as a Wife. Or something like that. In any case, he didn't EXPECT to get less sex and less imaginative sex, because married guys don't tell unmarried guys what married sex is like (because no one told us so SCREW HIM!) or there wouldn't be any married guys. But during your engagement, you probably kept him pretty happy until the wedding. You were his fiance -- that is, a kind of Super Girlfriend, who looked at your relationship with optimism and anticipation. 

Then you got married. You know what happened from there. Kids, house, jobs, etc. etc., and less sex, less imaginative sex, less time spent together, less happiness, less communication, less affection, and even if you work well together as a couple in most ways, there's always that underlying tension that tells you that something isn't quite right with the relationship. "Good Times" suddenly is any 24 hour period where you aren't pissed off at each other for some stupid reason.

I'd have a hard time telling you how things seem from the female perspective, and you'd be better equipped than I to understand that. But from the MALE perspective, a WHOLE LOT of the post-wedding marriage blues stems from our perception (sometimes shockingly) that we have a WIFE. That, in and of itself, isn't bad . . . wives are generally good things . . . but it doesn't stop there. See, you have to ask yourself, "when I became his Wife, did I also stop being his Girlfriend?" because that's damn sure what HE'S asking himself, even if he doesn't realize it.

Men are simple creatures, really. At least unsophisticated about some things. When we get married, we don't think our Girlfriend is going away (particularly if we had a nice Super-Girlfriend engagement) but all-too-often that is exactly what happens. The dynamic changes between the two of you, and he doesn't understand why you don't want to do all that stuff that kept him interested you in the first place anymore -- the Girlfriend stuff. Over time, that question (consciously or sub-consciously) starts to nag at him, and eventually he tries to reclaim your Girlfriend status that made him feel so good way back when.

So he tries pushing you for sex, because that, to him, signifies your girlfriendhood more than anything else (plus it feels really good and allows us to process our emotions). Of course, you've been devoting your energy to being a wife and mother, so when he tries to put you back in the girlfriend box you resent it, reject him, and come up with a Darn Good Reason why you can't have sex -- and if you're really on a roll, you'll blame him for being over-sexed, only want one thing, using you for his selfish pleasure, not respecting your feelings, etc. 

And after a couple of times doing this, he gets that icy cold feeling of dread in his heart when he thinks of you -- his Wife -- because you look just like his old girlfriend, but you aren't acting like it. Which means . . . 

_He realizes that he has committed to living with his ex-girlfriend for the rest of his life._

Now . . . that might seem overly simplistic, but as I said, men are simple creatures. We really _do_ think in terms like that. Sure, there's a complicated ocean of feeling and emotion under that, but when it comes to how we view relationships, that's often how we see things, especially when we're feeling rejected, not admired, not respected, nagged at, not loved, not cherished, and not appreciated. 

So . . . if you want to help things get back to happy time, then I suggest you ask yourself: a_re you a girlfriend or an ex-girlfriend?_ 

Because a man will open up and be himself with and do things for his girlfriend _far_ more happily and willingly than he will with his wife. That's why older couples with happy marriages have *date nights* -- not so they can discuss household business without the kids interrupting, but because they need to re-establish that they are each other's paramours before anything else. 

Now, I can hear you saying, "But Ian, I'm a grown woman with children, a wife and a mother, a home, cars, a respectable life, and a schedule that's far, far too busy to mess with that kind of silliness! How can you expect me to turn away from maturity and embrace that silliness again? Shouldn't he be the one to grow up, discard these stupid ideas about 'girlfriends', and just do what I want him to?" -- or something like that. I'll tell you what my favorite MC told my wife:

"Honey, anyone can be a wife. A man can have a wife or not. But if a man doesn't have a girlfriend . . . well, you can bet that he will, before too long. Just make sure it's you."

So the BJ wasn't a bad move -- far from it. I'm sure he was in a lot better mood and was more affectionate afterwards, too. (tell me if I'm wrong). Sucks that you don't like to do it (pun intended), but the fact is, that kind of selfless act pretty much programs our tiny little sex-crazed brains that we have a girlfriend . . . and we have to protect and support our girlfriend, cherish and love her, and give her nice things. If I were you, despite your distaste, I'd cultivate that skill and practice it frequently. Because, as my fave MC said once again, "In 30 years of practice I've never once had a couple come to me and say 'yes, she gives me oral sex every week and I still want a divorce.' That's right up there with a State Trooper urging seat belts by saying "I never unbuckled a dead man."

Now for the follow-up. No, not another BJ -- while that was great for him (and you, emotionally speaking), I can assure you that when he says he wants more variety and stuff in your sex life, he's not talking about just adding another position to his repetoire. He's talking about _reclaiming the spirit of sexual adventure_ you had when you were a Girlfriend. A man loves a girlfriend who is willing and eager to get freaky, and while you're a respectable wife and mother now, that does not preclude you from expanding your sexuality at all. 

So try this (Mrs. Ironwood used it on me recently, and after 20 years together it was still a hit): buy or borrow a cheap pop-up tent (Wal-mart usually has them for $20-$25) without his knowledge. When he's not looking, set it up in the backyard, in some unobtrusive corner, and put a couple of sleeping bags, some quality booze, and whatever other _accouterment_ you prefer, a whole sex-fest-in-a-tent. But don't tell him about it.

Then, when he suggests sex, tell him to wake you up after the kid goes to sleep again (he'll be thinking "Great! Remember what happened _last_ time I did that!). When he does, start making out, then suddenly stop, silently grab his hand, and start dragging him towards the door. If he's smart, he'll follow. If he acts confused, whisper in his ear "shut up and follow me! It'll be worth your while!" and keep dragging. Take him outside, crawl in the tent, and pretend you really, _really _want to impress your boyfriend. 

The next day, you can talk about what you damn well please, and he'll be more than happy to do . . . well, pretty much whatever. 

(N.B.: Don't forget to strike the tent the next morning . . . not a place where you want your kids playing . . . )


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

DUDE!!!!

Holy crap you nailed it. Never a truer word spoken. I think you put into words what every guy including me has tried to explain and felt but could never really articulate. I'm sorry, but I'm cutting and pasting this for my wife.

WOW.






IanIronwood said:


> bettertimes:
> 
> I don't think you made up too much with the bj. Sorry you hate them, but by doing that (most likely) you were saying to your husband:
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bettertimes said:


> Bottom line for me... I have a little twinkle of understanding of men that I am excited about and want to make into a real belief. I can see the sex as a NEED for him now.. and peacefully know it as that rather than thinking he has got to get off and is being really uncaring. I am going to venture into uncharted territory and full on do it.. no pun intended  and let him have the wifey he has always wanted in me sexually (no I am not turning into a hooker... I do have some boundaries there... but I think he will be wildly happy with what he gets). I will give it time to sink in for him.. and for me... but will also make sure my needs do get met too. I think by taking that step to break the catch 22, we can move on to a much happier marriage. Only took 20 plus years and this forum to figure that out... and understand it.



Oh honey, you have NO idea !! You do this, you won't regret it, and when he starts getting more vulnerable emotionally with you, you will be freaking AMAZED where this takes your relationship, took me 19 yrs to realize how I was hurting my dear husband. I had the opposite situation of you...he was the passive silent sufferer, took it all internally, and felt LESS LOVED -because I just wasn't getting it. This is NO GOOD either. 

When sex is highly desired -- People will either take it silently like my husband did --or be like your husband...and cause a FIGHT. I'm going to be real honest with you.... I am the woman and I am more like YOUR husband. I would have reacted the same way -to your comments. I know what it is like to feel that RAGING desire for sex . Had my own crazy experience (and you are right, as you age, your drive may surpass his.... I say to you now, ENJOY the hell out of this, cause I cried many tears wishing like mad that I could go back in time and recapture when he had that raging drive FOR ME, that bothered me more than I care to admit, for a time, I felt needy, a burden). It is a blessing when your man WANTS YOU...and NOW. Don't take it for granted. Gain a new mindset here. 

Some of us just ain't into masterbating all the time, it is lonely, it is hollow and it causes resentment to why our partner is not into us. Sexual rejection is of the DEEPEST hurts of any form on this planet. 

One of my greatest desires on this forum is ... because of my own mistakes in the past (not getting it, I wish my husband would have faught with me, I might have gotten it sooner), is to see women WAKE UP , and see how much POWER they have in keeping their men happy, on a HIGH every day of their lives, became that enthusistic seductress , bring him to his knees , this will do more than you can possibly imagine, even in your wildest dreams. 

I LOVE your attitude in dealing with these responses on this thead, also a joy to read. And seeing you have a real DESIRE to shake things up - starting with yourself to give the man you love what he has been craving. Oh good things are in store for you honey!!  

Read this, BE inspired... compliments of another woman poster who WOKE up later in life to the beauty of Giving to her man..ThreeTimesaLady


> Sex is desiring him every time you look at him. Needing him to fill that wonderful yearning deep inside you that needs filling & to die for. Sex is having breasts that ached to be touched & loved & you can not live without it. Sex is waking him up in the middle of the night as you need him & want him & then you find that he wants you just as much & you make love for an hour & get up & have coffee & wonder where the years have gone. Sex is finding the thrill after years of a man that can still make you scream & turn you to mush. Sex is turning him into a crazy man who wants you more than his own life.
> 
> Now. Love is being able to see some fault in your lover but shutting your mouth for the good of a marriage. Love is having to give & take in a marriage. Learning where to stop an argument when it is not important to win. Winning sometimes can be losing. Love is being able to find in that precious other the boy in the man that you fell in love when you 1st married. Love is being able to go to the sexiest side of you & turn that man into mush after all these years. Love is being able to hear from your lover that if you die first he will follow you as he cannot live without you . Love is the sunshine in the morning when it is cloudy out but seeing him next to you makes your world. Love is being able to say screwing & not being embarrassed plus any other really dirty word in the bedroom as he loves it. The dirtier the better as we all know that ladies do not talk dirty with those wonderful words but we also know as ladies that when we enter our bedroom to our precious that we leave the lady at the door. We then turn into his sex siren. As hot & as sensual as can be. And then we all know that when we leave that bedroom we again pick up the lady. All us ladies must have the two faces of Eve. This makes for a very very fullfilling marriage, full of intimacy and Love. A man would never stray if he had this.


 
I did a Vulnerability thread on how SEX - when I became "EASY" (so my husband termed it ) ...this is when he started opening up to me in ways he never did before in all of our years together, he was hiding a part of his sensitive emotional self . It was our healing balm---Yes.. SEX, more sex, enthusiatic sex, me showing great desire and need for him. It was his greatest desire or GIFT from me. Nothing could compare. And this could be true for you as well in your marriage. It has to start with one partner, and you are here, listening. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html


Pick up a book or two like this as well, gives you some new spicing ideas to work on, while you are tramsforming into his sex siren. 

Amazon.com: Passionista: The Empowered Woman's Guide to Pleasuring a Man (9780060834395): Ian Kerner: Books

Amazon.com: What Men Really Want In Bed: The Surprising Secrets Men Wish Women Knew About Sex (9781592332052): Cynthia W. Gentry: Books


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

^^^^ sounds like she has to dance around her husband to keep him from having a tantrum, withdrawing, playing power games and cheating or leaving. 
No wonder you said you hate your life. Boundreies OP, don't allow yourself to be taken for granted by giving too much. mature men emotional states are robust not labile like small children. If she needs to dance around at his feet to make him feel good, may he is not worth the trouble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> bettertimes:
> 
> I don't think you made up too much with the bj. Sorry you hate them, but by doing that (most likely) you were saying to your husband:
> 
> ...


I like your tent example. I may have to try that - although sneaking outside without anyone knowing when one kid is a teen up until 2 am can be
tough. 

I do hope that mr. bettertimes or any other man reading the thread also realizes the importance of maintaining and being a 'boyfriend' too. You see so often so many guys that get married and just quit doing the things that they did when they were dating. They go into 'auto-pilot' or 'cruise control' mode and their wives are left wondering what happened. So, it works both ways, I think. Key: Pay Attention to Your Spouse.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I do hope that mr. bettertimes or any other man reading the thread also realizes the importance of maintaining and being a 'boyfriend' too. You see so often so many guys that get married and just quit doing the things that they did when they were dating. They go into 'auto-pilot' or 'cruise control' mode and their wives are left wondering what happened. So, it works both ways, I think. Key: Pay Attention to Your Spouse.


:iagree:

A while back someone started a thread along the lines of what they wished they had known or advice they wanted when they got marreid. Mine were:

1) Make sure that my wife understood my need for sex and why I needed; and
2) Keep dating each other.

I did a poor job with both until recently. Where I really fell down was not driving things in the dating area. In my experience, men generally are "in charge" in dating. We ask, provide the initial suggestions on where to go and what to do, we pick our girl friend up, drop them off, etc. I got feed back and input from her, but I was generally the one moving the dates forward. I needed to do that while we were married as well. For example, we had a great time a bit ago when I gave her two weeks notice to get a sitter for the kids for a particular night. Surprised her by taking her to a grown-up arcade and bar. Just us having silly fun as adults. She loved it and is talking about what we can do next month. She is also for the first time talking about us getting a weekend away (in the past, I am the one who has suggested that). Treating her like my gf (even if only for an evening) is getting her to think like my gf.


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

I've realized some other bad things I am doing in our relationship... I tend to cut him off when he tries to talk to me.. DUH.. STOP IT... and I had been wondering why he doesnt talk to me.... DUH... really! So there have been improvements there... I can see a little bit of surprise in him on how I am acting. Nothing spoken, but he notices. I feel calmer too. I even kept calm when he was really pissing me off on how he was addressing our daughter over her being rude to him.. I was able to calmly explain to hubby and daughter how they were both at fault.. without either becoming defensive (a freaking tightrope thing to do) 

Even if the bj was too much apology, I said F**k it... oh well.. So I went overboard.. so what. So he got extra extra so what, and we didnt break even... so what.. I am going to continue on this way and see what comes of it. I think good things will happen. And we are getting that bike tomorrow... oh crap I have to go to the bank!!! That is something (bike) we have done together since before kiddo (but not after) We definitely need to do more things just the two of us. More happy, fun times to remember.. It has kind of become... build the business.... raise the kid, work work work!!! and now... fix up the freaking house we bought....

I get what you are saying about being the girlfriend.... I actually did a VERY girlfriend thing with him about a month ago (sex in wierd place) and hadnt done that in what, 15 years? I see strange sex locations in the future...wiith the motorcycle and all... heehhe. I am getting your idea of being the girlfriend pretty much just means to keep it exciting, fun like well, when you were his girlfriend... keep doing those same things... after all, that is what led to you being wife in the first place. Yeah ok. Going to log that one in my mind...

Lake is off for the weekend.... rain expected... hope we can still go for the ride.... probably.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

bettertimes said:


> I've realized some other bad things I am doing in our relationship... I tend to cut him off when he tries to talk to me.. DUH.. STOP IT... and I had been wondering why he doesnt talk to me.... DUH... really! So there have been improvements there... I can see a little bit of surprise in him on how I am acting. Nothing spoken, but he notices. I feel calmer too. I even kept calm when he was really pissing me off on how he was addressing our daughter over her being rude to him.. I was able to calmly explain to hubby and daughter how they were both at fault.. without either becoming defensive (a freaking tightrope thing to do)
> 
> Even if the bj was too much apology, I said F**k it... oh well.. So I went overboard.. so what. So he got extra extra so what, and we didnt break even... so what.. I am going to continue on this way and see what comes of it. I think good things will happen. And we are getting that bike tomorrow... oh crap I have to go to the bank!!! That is something (bike) we have done together since before kiddo (but not after) We definitely need to do more things just the two of us. More happy, fun times to remember.. It has kind of become... build the business.... raise the kid, work work work!!! and now... fix up the freaking house we bought....
> 
> ...



Remember to keep the lake and other priorities of yours in the mix, as well. If you continue on your great path of giving and improvement, I hope you will benefit from better treamtment from your husband as well. If he doesn't step up, it's his own da*n fault. You are on a great path, keep it up and invite him into your world along the way. It's not just about him, it's about sharing the things you love.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Congrats on taking some big steps toward a better marriage. You've discovered that, if you improve yourself, you improve your marriage.

If you find that you still need to approach your husband to request changes, I guarantee he will be more receptive to the new you (excited and loving) than he was to the old you (resentful and angry). People tend to mirror the emotions they are approached with. Yell at someone and they will likely yell back. Even if they don't know why they're yelling.

Have fun on the ride.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

bettertimes said:


> ... and hadnt done that in what, 15 years? I see strange sex locations in the future...wiith the motorcycle and all... heehhe.


So YOU'RE the couple I saw ****ing on the side of the road at night on their motorcycle 15 years ago?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

eagleclaw said:


> DUDE!!!!
> 
> Holy crap you nailed it. Never a truer word spoken. I think you put into words what every guy including me has tried to explain and felt but could never really articulate. I'm sorry, but I'm cutting and pasting this for my wife.
> 
> WOW.


I'm honored! It's what I do . . .


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

This is a timely thread for me, and I will need to digest it. Someone suggested this thread in one I started yesterday, and so much of it has twigged with me, yet part of me is still resisting on one level. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I have a question about ending the stalemate. In my marriage, the stalemate is a result of my husband becoming depressed and lashing out as a result which caused me to build up walls and resentments. This decreased the sex frequency and while I understand the reasons behind the advice to just suck it up and give him what he needs, I am struggling. Sure, my husband hasn't gotten the enthusiastic sex or as much as he wants, but he's still getting something, while my emotional tanks haven't been filled in literally years. I have put off being clear about my needs because I am understanding that he's been unable to cope. But...my tanks are empty. 

I understand that scorekeeping has been our downfall. On both of our parts. I am trying to stop and do what has been suggested in this and other threads...give him what he wants/needs and you'll get it back. So...my question is what can I expect in terms of how long to wait to have it returned? A week? A month? A year? And how am I supposed to feel in the meantime? I totally get it that it's unreasonable for me to say to my husband as in the case of this weekend, "you got sex 3 times in 1 day. Now give me what I need". Yet, I can't help but feeling that way with the history in our marriage.

I know I sound whiny here, and I don't mean to be. I am definitely wanting to turn things around in my marriage, but as some of the advice seems to suggest, I feel like I'm being told to ignore my own needs and give him what he wants in hopes he'll at some point think about mine. I've ignored my own needs for a long time already while he's still been getting at least SOME sex. And yes, I too want more sex, but I don't want it in a vacuum. It has to connect to the emotional needs I have too.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Michelle27 said:


> This is a timely thread for me, and I will need to digest it. Someone suggested this thread in one I started yesterday, and so much of it has twigged with me, yet part of me is still resisting on one level. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I have a question about ending the stalemate. In my marriage, the stalemate is a result of my husband becoming depressed and lashing out as a result which caused me to build up walls and resentments. This decreased the sex frequency and while I understand the reasons behind the advice to just suck it up and give him what he needs, I am struggling. Sure, my husband hasn't gotten the enthusiastic sex or as much as he wants, but he's still getting something, while my emotional tanks haven't been filled in literally years. I have put off being clear about my needs because I am understanding that he's been unable to cope. But...my tanks are empty.
> 
> I understand that scorekeeping has been our downfall. On both of our parts. I am trying to stop and do what has been suggested in this and other threads...give him what he wants/needs and you'll get it back. So...my question is what can I expect in terms of how long to wait to have it returned? A week? A month? A year? And how am I supposed to feel in the meantime? I totally get it that it's unreasonable for me to say to my husband as in the case of this weekend, "you got sex 3 times in 1 day. Now give me what I need". Yet, I can't help but feeling that way with the history in our marriage.
> 
> I know I sound whiny here, and I don't mean to be. I am definitely wanting to turn things around in my marriage, but as some of the advice seems to suggest, I feel like I'm being told to ignore my own needs and give him what he wants in hopes he'll at some point think about mine. I've ignored my own needs for a long time already while he's still been getting at least SOME sex. And yes, I too want more sex, but I don't want it in a vacuum. It has to connect to the emotional needs I have too.


First off bravo for realizing about the scorecard thing! We both have it.

FIRST OFF your husband is a JERK... he's a BIG FAT WHINY baby. 
Are you sure you want to stay with him? Either divorce OR
Do the following...

I'm going to tell you what I would want to hear as a husband coming from the same situation I'm in with my wife. In my case two years of this sexless existence it is hard on a guy. Almost the worst thing you could ever do...it affects EVERYTHING we do. I think about it all the time and that detracts from what I need to do for the family. Women don't realize that.
Good thing guys don't hold resentment long. Women another story...mine goes back to our wedding day 18 years ago..move on! I's amazing what women hold on to... you forget all the good and remember the most minor bad. I'm so glad I'm not a woman you are crazy!

DO THIS (Trust me I'm basically your husband without the anger)...

Tell him that you realize this is all silly and both your faults. You are extending an olive branch to see if the marriage can be made stronger.
Tell him EXACTLY what you are missing in the marriage (Write it down and hand it to him)
Tell him he anger must subside immediately that you don't respond to anger.
Tell him that you understand what you have been withholding from him and that you are sorry and that you decided to better the marriage to see what happens. That the outcome entirely depends on his FUTURE actions ongoing. The slate is now CLEAN he starts with an A.
Tell him if your needs aren't met then things will go back to the way we were because it's a two-way street and both of you WANT to WIN and be happy. Tell him this is the only time you will do this ever. Tell him the new life starts the next time you have sex. To give him time to take it all in and plan his course of action. He needs some control this puts it in his court.
Replace the word NEED with WANT. I don't NEED to make love to my wife but I sure as hell WANT to. More powerful. NEED is a turn off.
Tell him you love him... and tell him whenever he wants we can start our new life.
Now suck it up until your decision time and re-asses. Do your part no matter what and watch how soon he will transform. You have the power to save you marriage. It'll be fun and a lot better than now...trust me. If he fails you expectations become the ice queen or divorce him he's not worth you.


Now follow through on your end of the bargain FIRST at a mutually satisfying level (ask him his optimum, you know yours and pick near the middle to be fair and sustainable) with the occasional instigation of relations as a bonus to reinforce his good behaviors (us guys love that) ...BE ENTHUSIASTIC and tell him you have a firm re-assessment decision point in the future (3-6mo BUT DON"T TELL HIM WHEN) and this is his ONLY chance to get it right so you can both move on. Rock his world for a while, he deserves it. He's literally gone through hell.
He needs to quit being a child so be firm with him and start loving him the way you should. Set him straight.

It'll be hard you will feel used.. but guys will go to the sun and stars for you if they think their sex life is dependent on it. My guess is it won't take very long.

Communicate if things go astray for the rest of your lives!

Guys just want it fixed... girls don't seem to get this and play these DESTRUCTIVE games!
Mine has gone on two years, I think I just turned a corner we'll see. But it took me steering my wife with the possibility of divorce if our new mandatory monthly discussions on our life together start to go in a backward direction it was a process. Save yourself that threat or worse his affair (I wouldn't do that but plenty of guys would). We want sex more than ANYTHING from the beautiful wives we married... it's SIMPLE! You all should be ecstatic we feel this way yet so many wives play this stupid game...including mine! Yet I still love her to death in spite of all the pain she has caused by withholding affections. She says her feelings haven't returned but she's trying... well show me I see no trying yet. Se is nicer though and I pretty much know we'll move forward now. She's going to want to stop the mandatory talks and avoid the divorce trail. Essentially do the right thing.

This is almost like me pulling out he divorce possibility and the mandatory talks but in reverse. I'm the one giving for the last two years (SHE SAID I CHANGED) and now I have my decision point in the future and she knows it. Yes I will divorce her if needed and won't look back... i'll do it because I love her (we simply can not go on any longer unhappy). It's that important and I LOVE my two boys and our house and family. I won't stand for sexless! Just like you shouldn't stand for a husband not fulfilling YOUR wants (whatever the hell you women want...tell us we aren't mind readers, we are easy SEX WITH OUR WIVES REGULARLY AND WITH ENTHUSIAM)

Again bravo for reaching out... now DO THIS! Good Luck.
You will both win and owe me BIG TIME!
Wish me luck.


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

I never saw my part of it as a destructive game. Interesting. I guess I've always seen my holding back (but not completely...remember, that he's actually HAD sex all of these years) as the natural response from the anger/abuse I've been the recipient of. I haven't felt emotionally safe for a long time, and there's no way that won't impact the bedroom from a woman's perspective. As everyone knows, sex for a woman is often a result of feeling emotionally safe. I am trying to switch up my perspective here, but I'm having a hard time grasping the idea that I have to ignore that feeling of being emotionally unsafe to give him what he wants in order to hopefully get what I want months down the road. I have been crystal clear with him about that feeling of emotional safety being my number one need, and that alone hasn't been enough for him to stop the behavior that causes me to feel unsafe. His response to that discussion has been to act as if I'm overreacting (rolling eyes, etc.) and that I'm doing the same thing to him by not giving him the physical affection he wants/needs. And I am sympathetic to his own pain...he is dealing with a lot of inner crap of his own. It's a cycle I'm trying to break, though. Funny you mentioned HIM having an affair...I've unfortunately allowed it to go on so long that he actually thinks I'm looking for an affair because, as he put it, "I've treated you like crap for a long time". His thinking that I am and the accusations, looking in my phone and computer and questioning everything has actually made me wonder if he in fact has something to hide and is acting in a typically "guilty" way. I'm not looking for or having an affair...I know what's under my husband's pain, I just want him to want to get to the bottom of it for his own benefit, not mine and get back to the loving caring guy I fell in love with and married.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Michelle27 said:


> I never saw my part of it as a destructive game. Interesting. I guess I've always seen my holding back (but not completely...remember, that he's actually HAD sex all of these years) as the natural response from the anger/abuse I've been the recipient of. I haven't felt emotionally safe for a long time, and there's no way that won't impact the bedroom from a woman's perspective. As everyone knows, sex for a woman is often a result of feeling emotionally safe. I am trying to switch up my perspective here, but I'm having a hard time grasping the idea that I have to ignore that feeling of being emotionally unsafe to give him what he wants in order to hopefully get what I want months down the road. I have been crystal clear with him about that feeling of emotional safety being my number one need, and that alone hasn't been enough for him to stop the behavior that causes me to feel unsafe. His response to that discussion has been to act as if I'm overreacting (rolling eyes, etc.) and that I'm doing the same thing to him by not giving him the physical affection he wants/needs. And I am sympathetic to his own pain...he is dealing with a lot of inner crap of his own. It's a cycle I'm trying to break, though. Funny you mentioned HIM having an affair...I've unfortunately allowed it to go on so long that he actually thinks I'm looking for an affair because, as he put it, "I've treated you like crap for a long time". His thinking that I am and the accusations, looking in my phone and computer and questioning everything has actually made me wonder if he in fact has something to hide and is acting in a typically "guilty" way. I'm not looking for or having an affair...I know what's under my husband's pain, I just want him to want to get to the bottom of it for his own benefit, not mine and get back to the loving caring guy I fell in love with and married.



Michelle,

Can I ask you a question?

From your perspective can you give me insight into what is going on in my wife's mind (I think you are very similar except I doubt she thinks about it like you I think she is just too busy and tired). 

Here's my story...

We have been married 18 years. Two years ago my wife says she turned off emotions for me. I was drinking a little much to remove stress job/lack of sex (we were only at 15 times per year or so) and probably being too rough on the kids verbally. I would watch porn still do but would give it up if I had a decent sex life (my only vice/outlet), she doesn't know I think. At times I may have been inattentive to her needs, a little self absorbed. One night after having an argument with one of the kids she gave me the "I love you but not sure if I'm in love with you always" speech.

I stopped drinking that night (been sober for two years straight, I was NOT an alcoholic I did it as a show that her love meant more to me) and then went on to address EVERY issue she brought up. I was already a great husband apart from the few flaws I exhibited. We hugged that night and she said it would just take some time! I'm good looking. I'm one of the good guys, I love my wife just as much as ever.

After a few months of drought I mentioned that I would like to have sex at least every 10 days (My max without going through withdrawals) all this got me is 7 times in two years. She felt lectured to... Talk about a punch in the gut.

I wanted to get to that elusive mutually acceptable level of at least twice a month (pretty much twice what led to problems)... that would make me happy. It's very workable only 24 times a year is all I want because I know her drive isn't very high. The three to four month stretches just for an "unenthusiastic session" are WAY beyond my limit of tolerance. I hide it but it hurts deep down. I'm nowhere near as happy as before and it affects me daily.

Fast forward two years...

She says I changed that it's HER, that she appreciates everything I do. She wants to stay married and wants to "strengthen" it (it's actually gotten worse only twice this year... it's OCTOBER!)
WE get along GREAT in just about every other way except for sex and non-sexual touch, hardly any hugs and kisses pretty much never.
She works hard and goes to the gym too (her stress relief). Shes social with friends, spends time on FACEBOOK and texts a lot (Partly due to her job). I don't restrict her she gets to do whatever.
She's an early riser and to bed person.
We were fairly low sex couple before at an almost workable 15-20 times per year but towards the revelation... things were declining. I think she probably went through a year or so of stress she reported sometimes crying in the bathroom. I had no idea.

We are sexless by definition 7 times for two years... sometimes 4 month stretches...currently @2.5 months. I try but always seem to get turned down (Tired etc)

I think it's a combination of factors...

Holding a grudge, things I said
Menopause coming up
Naturally early to bed 8-8:30, but only likes it at night on the rare occassion?
Busy
Tired

She has no problem if I see her naked or vice versa. 

I pretty much went with two six-month stretches of just going with the flow... I mentioned nothing. No changes. i wanted to give her space. So then recently....

I put my new plan into action (We agreed to talk every month until this gets resolved and I have a drop dead date in my mind that if things don't improve that's it)... so we'll see. So far so good but no sex yet. She still reports the feelings issue and that she is trying. She's been "trying" for two years! She suggested I find a hobby. She's been a lot nicer and more talkative. She even suggested (way out of character) that I spend money to do something I really would like (I declined nicely it'd be a waste of money IMO). I'm not sure if her switch is flipping I guess I'll know soon. My thought is she probably will want to have sex to have something to show when we talk next month... that's my hope.

I'm a firm believer WE NEED TO HAVE REGULAR GOOD SEX to bring back those elusive feelings. Sort of a use it or loose it deal. Am I right?

I'm hoping the monthly talks enhance our sex life. i think we should both be motivated not to head to divorce which I will do if i have to. I can't accept this. I think she realizes it now finally. I think it's going to cause change from the usual non-action on her part. I'm patient but everyone has their limits. There has to be fairness in a marriage. It's not fair she controls my sex life! She's lousy at that.

I'm the model husband... nothing like yours. I wasn't bad before apart from the yelling at the kids two boys! NEVER to her) when they screwed up (I know that was wrong) and maybe a little too much drinking.

My whole point was that she "blind sided" me and turned me off that totally upset my world. From that moment I fixed all her concerns. Yet still she seems to put our sex life way on the back burner. I get very disappointing. All outward appearances are that we are a fun perfect couple raising two boys. We both report "unhappy" so she's not happy even with sexless. Why? I would think she would be estatic! Is it because she's beating herself up on the inside because she knows I'm not happy? If so why not fix it? Why do women do this?

I need to know.... like I said I think I'm finally turning a corner but I'd like some insight from your perspective on whats going on. I KNOW she is not cheating but likely is peri-menopausal. She says shes too busy to see a dr. although I put the bug in her ear and got a non verbal maybe. I think she needs to go.

Help!

Everything else is GREAT... nice house, nice families, both employed, great friends. People used to tease we were the "Leave it to Beaver family" still do. I'm very disappointed to say the least. Not mad but disappointed in the time this is taking. Why can't women flip that switch back on? I as a guy can't fathom it... she can treat me like garbage yet I'd still love her. I don't get it. Are women crazy...she's hurting our marriage everyday. Is there hope?

Any good ideas from a woman's perspective? I'm fresh out after two years of trying myself. This new plan is my last hope! I'm going to give it my best efforts. Things will change one way or the other.


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

Wow! What a heartfelt post, Trying2figureitout! I feel for you, and while I'm certainly no expert, I don't mind looking at your situation from my perspective, but I hope you keep in mind that I'm coming at this from my own insecurities, resentments and pain. And therefore, I could be using my own biases here.

It sounds to me like you know exactly what your mistakes were early on (drinking, harsh on the kids, etc.) and that you have worked hard to change those things. But as a woman, and knowing I can't speak for ALL women, I have to say that I think most women (me included) have VERY long memories and tend to hold onto the feelings that were created. In my case, my resentments have taken over and although he's expressed the desire for me to have an attitude of "clean slate" after each of his explosions because it feels like there's a huge elephant in the room and that I'm constantly on the lookout for some sign that another blow up is coming. He's right. But after so many years of the same behavior, I think I can rightly state that the best predictor of future behavior is the past. 

So, I don't know your wife, but I would be willing to bet that although you changed those bad habits, she is holding onto the resentment that they bred in her. It's hard to let that stuff go. She is probably very thankful you did change things (and I have to say congratulations on that too...it must not have been easy) but she's scared that if she relaxes, you might revert to those bad habits again.

She very likely IS beating herself up over allowing things to get to this point, as I do all of the time. I KNOW my husband wants me to give him that clean slate and I want to, but I've not been able to. And the reason I'm struggling is because I'm still harboring the resentments built up over a long time. That beating up of herself (if that is what she's doing) is a hard cycle to break. Feeling guilty over holding the resentments and being unable to make the changes necessary because of those resentments is tough. I've been doing it for years. 

I don't know if opening the lines of communication more will help for you. But I do think that the approach might need to be a little gentler. While I totally understand that the frequency you're asking for (once every 10 days) isn't a tough thing to achieve, but I'm sure with her guilt/resentment cycle, it's hard to hear that request. I hate to recommend this, but I wonder if you approached it more as, "what do you need from me in order to maybe want to be more intimate with me?" and take it from there. She may need to figure out what she needs. Once resentments take hold and that guilt/resentment cycle sets in, it's hard to remember what you want, at least for me. I am working on clarifying that for myself so I can pass it onto my husband. But my one main need is to feel emotionally safe and that has been a struggle to get to. 

I am sure that my response here is heavily influenced by my own struggles, but I hope there is something in what I've said to help or at least give you a different perspective.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Michelle27 said:


> Wow! What a heartfelt post, Trying2figureitout! I feel for you, and while I'm certainly no expert, I don't mind looking at your situation from my perspective, but I hope you keep in mind that I'm coming at this from my own insecurities, resentments and pain. And therefore, I could be using my own biases here.
> 
> It sounds to me like you know exactly what your mistakes were early on (drinking, harsh on the kids, etc.) and that you have worked hard to change those things. But as a woman, and knowing I can't speak for ALL women, I have to say that I think most women (me included) have VERY long memories and tend to hold onto the feelings that were created. In my case, my resentments have taken over and although he's expressed the desire for me to have an attitude of "clean slate" after each of his explosions because it feels like there's a huge elephant in the room and that I'm constantly on the lookout for some sign that another blow up is coming. He's right. But after so many years of the same behavior, I think I can rightly state that the best predictor of future behavior is the past.
> 
> ...


Thanks Michelle... 

Actually I'm saying it harsher than actually portrayed to her. I read her a dated letter, gave it to her and she stored it away in her spot of keepsakes. I just expressed disappointment that all talks are re-hashes and pointless. i reaffirmed I tried everything except for this. I said this way we should be able to figure out if we have a solvable situation.

It consists of once a month, discussing only the previous month. I want to keep it light and simple. Pretty much just a family talk with everything on the table.

Saying what went well with each other?
What didn't? What caused stress or was missing?
A chance to say thanks for anything to try to reinforce those loving behaviors with each other. Find what works so we can both continue to do those things.
To discuss the upcoming month and any future dreams or ongoing family issues.

I did let her know let her know that we may find out it's unsolvable, and that I would only leave her when I felt she would be better without me out of love for her to make her happier. The decision point I have in my head is just to make sure by then things improve and are an upward trend. I can do without every 10 days like I said 14 would be fine and monthly for now acceptable. I just need to get rid of the super long lapses! Those are crazy. 

I think at the very least it keeps our biggest issue at the forefront open for discussion each month. If that gets sex going once per month great. That's about where we were before the sexless period ensued. At least 12 isn't sexless and for me that's a huge distinction. I'm willing to be patient, loving and flexible I just need to see some forward progress, some regularity. Some enthusiasm.

You did help. I like that last line you stated it's great. I may use it at some future point. Thanks (I saved it)

I think you are right about many things. I do feel for my wife the last thing I want is to push her to do something if she is not into it. On the flip side I think she NEEDS to do it to get better. I'm just trying to fix it, move positively so we both can be happy. I promise to be gentle and caring. I feel pretty good about it right now. I think I'm standing on firm ground since I really only talked about this twice over the past year. i gave her lots of space to breathe. I've had consistent good behaviors in place for two years (and even before). I'm a great husband. I adore my wife.

BTW what is your opinion on the porn? Should I stop or is it ok?

Again I think the talks will put some pressure on her "gently" to change. It's like anything if it's going to get measured then it's more likely to get done. The talks can absolutely go away when we both report marital happiness without stress. When things get to a better sustainable normal.


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

The monthly meetings sound like a good idea, honestly. I sort of wish that my husband and I could do something like that because the way things are now, airing anything we're frustrated about is difficult because it often turns into one of his blow ups. So we both sit on our frustrations and then it gets ugly when a crack in that foundation appears. I think as long as both of you feel like you're getting something out of it, it's definitely something to continue. 

Porn is a difficult thing for me to address as it really only matters whether it's a problem in your marriage. I struggle with my husband's use of porn greatly, but most of the time I believe it's perfectly normal. At times, my own insecurities take hold because I know he's looking at different body types of women and I'm only one type. Also, (and this brings up a current resentment of my own) he is, I think, terrified that I'm looking for an affair because, as he actually said, he knows he's treated me badly. I'm not, but he is convinced I must be...and yet, I know he's looking at real people with his porn and getting off on it. I'm more angry about it because of that than because of the porn itself. I know that if I "put my food down", he'd probably just do it in secret, so whatever....I have bigger fish to fry. LOL 

I think as long as it isn't a problem for you...that you "need" it to even become interested in sex with your wife, or that you choose it over the possibility of intimacy with your wife, then it's not a problem. But that's just my opinion. This board is filled with women for whom the porn is a dealbreaker.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Trying2figureitout,

I know you asked michelle27, but your story is not that uncommon of one. So if you don't mind, I'm going give it my interpretation, coming from the viewpoint that you just described a good chunk of my 16-year marriage.

(and I'm such a slow typist, a conversation broke out while I wrote this.. oh well)

* disclaimer - all of this is my opinion, based on my life experiences

Your wife has "flipped the bit" on you as my co-workers might say. Basically, she lost respect for you some time ago, and has effectively decided (unconsciously more than consciously) that you're not worth looking up to (and getting wet over) anymore. If she had it her way, you would have gotten even less sex these past few years.

She knows she's bound to you because of the kids, the house, and the fact that she's married, and she'll tell you and everyone else that she want's to stay married. She even tries to tell herself that she believes it. But the reasons she "wants" to stay married don't include having a close intimate life with you. She's mostly comfortable with her life, and needs someone to do a lot of child rearing, maintain the house, and help pay the bills. Not to mention that she has this idea of how she is supposed to appear to everyone else (the "leave it to beaver family"). As you mentioned, she reports being "unhappy" being sexless, yet lifting a finger towards getting it on with you is to her a less desirable option that putting up with the monthly talks and your complaining about it. Now why does she see things that way?

I really don't think "pre-menopausal" has anything to do with it. She doesn't care (very much) about you and your needs. Now she's not going to tell you that - she knows better because that would just rock the boat and make you blow up. She's happier when you know your place and stay in it. I'm sure she considers you a something "to be managed", like a problem underling at work. 

Now you say that you "KNOW" she isn't cheating. Maybe she isn't, maybe she is. But I can be pretty sure that she's open to the idea if some new guy was to come along and appear exciting and show interest in her. Would she actually do it if that happened? Can't say, but I can GUARANTEE that she would give it serious consideration. That not saying she is running around, I am just say that is where she is at these days. Sadly I've seen this from both sides too may times.


BTW - if you read the infidelity forums here, the high levels of texting and going out with friends are big red flags. Is she protective of her phone/email, or doesn't mind if you go through it?

I can see that Michelle27 just replied, and like her my response here is heavily influenced by my own experiences.

So to sum it up, Sex isn't your core issue. She needs to starting thinking of you again in a "That's the man I want to be with way", because she hasn't been thinking that. If she's beating herself up on inside, it could be because she feels trapped - she doesn't want you, but want's needs the boy's father and a good provider. (as opposed to her feeling like she's failing you). She's also aware that you are somewhat trapped (i.e. she thinks divorce is a price too high for you to want to pay).

When you "fast-forwarded it two years" in your post, you described a Gilligan's Island scenario. Every week/month/etc you put in the effort, yet nothing changes. Every day you start over in the same place. If both of you really wanted change lie you say you do, it would have happened. So who is lying about really wanting it? The "I love you but not sure if I'm in love with you always" bit was a telling slip. 

Love and respect have been lost, and she's loathe to admit to that (for now). You say how you have been such a good guy, and how you fixed every issues that she raised. Yet, in the past I'm sure you had your issues and perhaps still some that she hasn't told directly to you. I'm not going knock you, but please be aware that there had to have been reasons that she saw for her to flip the bit on you. Still, that's in the past. You can only be the best you can going forward. I hope that change is visible enough to her.

I don't have a good answer for you. I suspect the thing that would most get her to pay attention to the need to change would be a serious threat of divorce, yet you can not fake that. (once you back down from the threat she'll respect you even less). Otherwise, she thinks she's in control of things, including you.


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

Great answer, Anubis. I know for sure that my own biases are showing and I'm probably more sympathetic to what she's feeling than someone with a different bias is feeling. You're probably 100% right on the loss of respect. I know that figures into my own situation and goes both ways. It's always far easier to hold onto the idea that the other person needs to make changes than it is to make changes in ourselves. I am guilty of this too. For the first few years of my husband's depression and resulting blow ups, my response was an equal amount of anger in order to just be heard. It was wrong, and in looking for help in various online boards and my own individual counseling, I learned about validation and had to swallow the bitter pill that what I was doing was invalidating the kernel of truth in each of his blow ups. He always had legitimate beefs, but he blew up way out of proportion, probably partly because of his depression and partly because I stopped hearing even that kernel of truth and validating it. But in learning about and practicing validation, I have also discovered the painful truth that he is also unable to validate much of my concerns. 

I'm sorry...once again I'm going off on my own problems. I hope at some point to be able to "give back" to these forums in a better way once things are better in my own marriage. I am feeling hopeful..things are getting better, I can see that he's trying harder than he ever has, and so am I, but I'm scared to be let down again.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Michelle,

There is nothing to be sorry about. He asked you specifically, and conversation ensued. I don't know that my responses are any more "correct" than you responses.. after all, we don't personally know them. But with multiple responses, we shine more light on things from different angles and perspectives, and have a higher chance of illuminating something that could help trying2figureitout.

And that to me is giving back. 

We are all humans here, with flaws and imperfections. (some moreso than others - I don't respect blatant cheaters much).


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Anubis said:


> Trying2figureitout,
> 
> I know you asked michelle27, but your story is not that uncommon of one. So if you don't mind, I'm going give it my interpretation, coming from the viewpoint that you just described a good chunk of my 16-year marriage.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insight...

I think a lot of what you say may be true. I think the getting wet part may be true for now. My wife has a bad habit of holding grudges.... I knew all along that I should never get on her bad side because I can see what happens. She disowned her sister and best friend. She pretty much just gives you one shot. The things I did were relatively small and not necessarily out of normal... I had to control the kids and some drinking to relieve stress. Perhaps I was in my world and didn't have enough focus on her. Hard to believe because she has always been on my mind but it's her perspective. Like I said... totally blindsided.

I even mentioned that I thought that she could probably find NO ONE that totally met up to her standards... she said that might be really be true. Yet she decided to marry.

She talks highly of me and writes notes of thanks. She seems to respect me. I just think she sort of built her life to be busier and found ways to deal with stress in any form. I think she wants to get back to normal but is having a hard time doing it. She really is very busy and doesn't seem to have the time to work on this from her end. It's easier to live her life and just go to sleep. She doesn't seem to realize it was both our faults pretty much 50/50.

But little by little I think we are making progress. We'll see. She's very type A. I relly think shes just stubborn and is punishing me like others she has before. I think one day she'll realize it. We don't fight we are good friends, we are in every way a great couple except for THIS.

I think if she really checked out completely we would be seeing other cracks. Not so it's just THIS. So I'm not sure if she totally fits your description. We'll see, I think after a few months of discussion we'll know where we stand... I just need to find out.

She started this and she needs to end it. She needs to change her mind plain and simple.


.


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## skip76 (Aug 30, 2011)

Couldn't get past page two with all your excuses. So if you changed your attitude since then I apologize. You so not get it. I am sure he doesn't want you to service him or else as you put it. That would be a pity ****. Maybe he actually wants his wife to desire him. He has already mentioned to you that there is a problem. He talked to you about it like an adult and you showed him how much you care about him by ignoring his cry for help and then you do this. Be prepared to do some major soul searching because you need to change and quick. Get this entitlement attitude out of your head because he will not be forgetting this anytime soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skip76 (Aug 30, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> But sex is inextricable from a caring and loving relationship. You can't state, "No sex until we have a caring and loving relationship," because sex is a required component.
> 
> 
> That depends on why you are unhappy. I think many sexless couples, perhaps most, have other significant issues in play. However, many sexless couples are just sexless. Add sex to the marriage and you instantly get a good marriage.
> ...




Do you expect a man to continuously romance you even though he does not feel loved. In my opinion that would be fake manipulation to get some. That would then go on, with nothing changing but now the husband is smothering and a doormat. Now she will have a new complaint to post about. You women do not see how much control you have. If he felt that overwhelming desire from you, I assure you he would be affectionate and could not get you out of his head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

skip76 said:


> Couldn't get past page two with all your excuses. So if you changed your attitude since then I apologize.


This is one of the dangers of posting without knowing the current state of a thread. The OP has recognized her contributions to her marital problems and has offered the olive branch to her husband (more sex and more couple activities like motorcycling).

The OP has stated that her mood has improved and the sex has picked up. It's still early days, so no word yet on how this has affected her husband's attitude and willingness to change his ways.


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

wow, its been hellish since I was here last..... Im out on this mission to "give more" and the day after we make up we discover our daughter caught lice!! AHHH!!! And at the same time, I developed a really screwed up problem... (dermographism... a form of hives) I have hives all over, major pain in arms (that has subsided) super itchy skin and now swelling over my whole body. Thankfully, with enough drugs (Zantac, Ibuprofin, Allegra) I am now itching less but the swelling!!!! This is really f**king up my d**m plan and I am greatly annoyed. Need to go to more doctors to figure out what the heck is wrong with me!!!

SO....I was just in too much pain and itching to have sex. Wonderful huubby didnt even want to do it with me in that condition. That is thoughtful of him...or hes just grossed out...GREAT FRIGGING TIMING you stupid body!!! So I did a bj because it is all I could manage and we finally had sex the other day (it was GREAT!) I still don't know what is wrong with me, but I can have sex once again.... though not on top with my swollen knees (and that is something he wants more of...grrr!!) Well, we can do other things, Im sure he understands. The swelling is obvious. 

Well, ok, just wanted to check in.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

sorry to hear about your physical issues, seems unfair timing eh?

but it sounds like H is being patient and understanding, thats good too. keep plugging


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sorry for the rotten luck. On a positive note, it sounds like you and your husband are being more considerate of each other and enjoying each other more. That's good.

Keep things moving in a positive direction and you'll have a lot of fun once those lice and hives are gone.
:smthumbup:


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## gonefishin (Oct 7, 2011)

Better Times

My wife and I have the same problem. She does not initiate. I would never say this to her, but. If she reached out once and a while I would be so happy I would be at her beck and call.

We do have sex, but I am always the one to initiate.

Try turning things around. Your husband is the one that always initiates therefore he is the one that is always rejected. Correct?

You can't be rejected because you do not initiate. You have so much time invested with this man. Try something new. You have nothing to loose. Who knows, you may enjoy it and turn your husbands attitude around.


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## bettertimes (Sep 26, 2011)

you all know my change of perspective, well I dont know if I want to bother. I just want to die. If I didnt have a kid maybe I could. I am so upset. Havent felt so bad ina long time. 

so this is a little detailed sorry....tonight, after another predictible pre sex me stroking him, him rubbing my back with his free hand we were going to start. I rarely do this but thought it might stimulate/relax me... I asked him to rub my sciatic nerve... sends tingles everywhere, very relaxing... but he wanted to stick it in. Any time I ASK for something in our marriage I am sure NOT to get it.. he does nice things once in a while, but only if it is his idea. Anyway what he wanted is what we tried but it wsa one of those days it hurt! just feels like a cut is being rubbed on.. searing burning pain....hurts! so I moved to another position that he likes hoping it would be ok... no... hurt so bad I actually yelped (he said ...you could of given me a little warning.. WTF, warning...uh if I didnt know it would hurt, how the F do I WARN you I am going to yelp! really!) I know my body and know when it jsut isnt going to work any way but him on top (so I can relax those muscles) so I sheepishly asked him to get on top. he got all pissed off (wants me to get on top more... damnit I am trying but when it hurts like that F**K I just cant) then there was the fight over it. him: saying I couldn't even try being on top, doesnt know what is different about him on top or me on top same position (YES, but not same in function, my muscles are all tight and angles wrong) ... he was saying he is always on top (no ****) ...saying he rubs my back all night and then this! (ok, that is the only physical attention I get that isnt actual sex, so I take it... no it does not turn me on) 

Really how in the hell do I continue on with meeting his needs, and being more adventurous / being on top more / initiating more when he is very clear that he couldnt give a crap about me wanting him on top yet again.... but because it is PAINFUL!!!! Not to mention, both frigging KNEES and WRISTS are f**king swollen... Its da*n hard to be on top with that. What a great flipping time for him to refuse to be on top....oh, I know... its the freaking weekend coming... been planning for a week to take thurs/fri off and go somewhere or jsut do something fun as a family.. he couldnt get off work today and I spent the day looking for doctors to fix me... so yippie freaking yay, the weekend is tomorrow sat and sun and oooh ooh do I not want to be with him. Its almost like he subconciously sees good times coming and wants to sabotage them.

My daughter mentioned putting up halloween decorations... shes been waiting.. Hes not into halloween but suggested that we do do that tomorrow. I thought maybe with us all doing it, we might have fun and make it a family tradition like I had when I was a kid (and had so much fun with) Yeah, how much fun witll that be now. yeah right.

so what am I supposed to do? I feel SOOOOOOO mad with him, the words hate, and there might not be anything left crossed my mind. How do I put in this big change when he was so cold and uncaring. I get it, he needs his sex yeah yeah, but this is bull. Am I just supposed to carry on and continue with the plan. It is just rediculous to me for a husband to choose the time where wife is all f***ed up to decide that is the time you are sick of being on top, da*n it, sick of it, and it needs to end right now wife, get on top da**nit. Can his timing be any stupider, worse, more selfish, meaner, what the hell is wrong with him

I get that he is still feeling all those issues with our sex life and I cant exactly say "but look at what I am workingon" for that (havent delivered much yet) 

is there even a point anymore

I need your help


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

You need to think this through. Your "change" is new to him. In fact with the problems you have had with swelling, and intercourse pain, and girl thing he probably really hasn't seen "much" of a change. So basically he has possibly heard some of your words, but all he is seeing is one excuse after another, after another. Don't get me wrong, I get that these are valid excuses. But he's not thinking, oh wow this is unusual something must be wrong. He's thinking wow, ANOTHER excuse.

That being said he needs to be more empethetic. But you can't expect this dynamic to change over night. He is not going to be more understanding, and more affectionate, and a changed man overnight. He hasn't even had a chance to really even SEE your changes yet. Words are words, action is all I go by.

I have a really bad back. At times sex hurts like hell. When my wife is right in her groove I don't stop, or break her mood by talking about it. If it's bad enough and I can't do it or continue, I'll forcefully transition quickly to providing oral or something that comes across as exciting for her, but comfortable for me.

I don't remember if you have ever spoke of the oral side of things, or alternatives to intercourse. But start using all the tools in your toolbox. Do something different that's hot and exciting for him if your uncomfortable. Give him enthusiastic oral, or ask him to C$M on your breasts etc. Whatever. But don't start having a discussion about pain while he's in the mode just transition to something else.

And expect the transistion on both your parts to take some time......


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## Loveher (Oct 15, 2011)

I think you hubby needs to learn some skills, sounds like he just rolled over and said how bout it honey. He sounds like a manipulator to me. It would be nice if he wanted to be intimate and close to you, but sounds like he just wanted to relieve himself on you. You will and probably have become very resentful of him, and would love him to be an attentive thoughtful lover, not a selfish one.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It does not sound like your husband is capable of being loving and connected on a consistent basis and it is not you, it is him. He may find close emotional relationships uncomfortable so he does things to keep people at a distance. Only the people who are closeast to him can see it not people who don't need to depend on him for a consistent show of love and connectedness. 

People who distance themselves seldom change and they usually find people like you for relationships. You want to connect and when he does something that pushes you away you run after him. Does he get really nice when you seem to be withdrawing but when you draw near does he do something that is emotionally abusive? Has he ever had close stable relationships? 

You can do a number of things, accept him the way he is, enjoy what he can do to make you happy and let the rest go. This strategy allows you to stay but you stay on his terms not your's. Or you can get out and find someone who wants to be as close to you as you are to them. 

Either way, if he is a person who cannot tolerate emotional closeness, you will not be able to change him no matter what you do. He may change but it will be in response to something in him. If you feel as if you have given him enough time to return your kindness and he seems to be immovable or to behave even worse, you need to change up. The oringinal problem may not have been you at all.

It may have been that you married a man who draws you close, just to push you away. Can you accept him as he is and provide him what he wants with no expectation of reciprocation? Is there enough good in the relationship for you to make it worth the effort? 

Do you think that although it would hurt at first to leave, you would eventually be happier? It seems that you have gone way above the call of duty to understand and reconnect with him. Is he capable of a sustained intimate relationship? Maybe not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Loveher (Oct 15, 2011)

Sounds like narcissistic personality disorder to me, although I'm no expert. He lacks empathy.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Has this been the general course of your married life together? Or have there been times when you two were more simpatico?

Look at the following statements:

1 - I want my spouse to do things to make me feel loved, cherished, and gratified.

2 - I want to do things that make my spouse feel loved, cherished, and gratified.

Which statement are you and your husband at?

Statement 1 is where most spouses usually are - kind of a selfish, "this is what I want dammit!" mode.

Statement 2 is where both spouses really need to be in a marriage.

Go back and look at your first post and your last post. Are they indicative of statement 1?

Go look at your other posts in the body of the thread - where you decided to try and meet your husband's needs? They are indicative of statement 2.

Now, I'm not saying that you should forever be doing the second statement if your husband never, ever does anything except statement 1. That would be a gross imbalance within your marriage, and if that is what happens, then Catherine had some good advice just above.

But, have you given this enough time?

And, what would have happened if there had been more a spirit of openness and giving from you? What if you had been able to say "Oh, baby - wait. I'm not quite ready for that yet. Can we try to spoon instead?"

Your husband's actions and reactions feed off of yours, just like yours do off of his. But, YOU can control your actions and reactions. You can control not getting ticked off. You can control not letting it bubble to the surface and lashing out if you truly want to.

God Bless.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Did you specifically tell your husband that you were in pain and needed to switch? Your post makes it sound like you were in pain, but didn't tell your husband. Or at least, you didn't tell him the full extent of your pain and how it was affecting you.

If that's the case, then your husband may have dismissed your pain because he didn't know about it.

As other posters have said, exhibiting changes in your behavior, which your spouse sees and responds to by changing his behavior, usually takes months. And you've been set back by medical issues. So I think you still have time for it to work.

In the meantime, I think the best thing to do for sex when you're in pain is to tell your husband how much pain you're in and that positions A, B, and C must be ruled out. But you should offer positions D, E, and F, or a hard commitment for a rescheduled A, B, or C on another day. And don't accept b!tching and moaning about the situation from him. In this case, you're being very reasonable and you should require him to be accommodating as well.

Good luck.


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## tryjezus (Aug 14, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> First off bravo for realizing about the scorecard thing! We both have it.
> 
> FIRST OFF your husband is a JERK... he's a BIG FAT WHINY baby.
> Are you sure you want to stay with him? Either divorce OR
> ...


I know its been a long time since this message was wrote but I hope that this advice wasn't followed through with. I suspect that this fellow who wrote this is probably divorced unless he learned to stop making ultimatums.


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## tryjezus (Aug 14, 2012)

I agree with you. I spent several hours reading through this entire post. What I see hear primarily is a failure to follow through. After the initial effort was made, a challenge presented itself, and instead of recognizing the challenge and moving on "bettertimes" seems to have reverted to her old self. This is understandable, since by her own confession she hasn't made much of an effort to change herself yet and these things take time.
Let me make this personal. The "only" thing about my marriage that I don't like is our sex life. As the guy I fill many of the traditional wife roles in the household, cooking, cleaning, etc. along with all of the normal male roles. I work full time and she is a full time student currently. For the previous 8 years I was the full time student and she worked full time. In the past her primary complaint was being too tired. I was the opposite of your husband "bettertimes" emotionally. I gave her almost everything she wanted and went and did whatever she liked to do. The more I did the more I resented her for neglecting me. For me the greatest struggle is that we only have sex when it is her idea. And... Because I get it so infrequently I have not managed to have the will power to turn her down (even when I'm angry). 
I said all this to say this.....
I stopped trying several times (because of rejection). My wife doesn't even realize she'd doing it most often when I casually touch her or make a pass at her. I can't count on all my digits the number of times the first words I've heard from her in the morning is what is wrong with her body (stomach hurts, vagina problem, headache, gotta go to work soon (several hours before), etc.) It got so bad once that I confronted her about it and pointed out to her that every time I even "hinted" about sex, whether I wanted it at that moment or not she was armed with an excuse why we couldn't have any that day. 

I'm still married because I forgive. I forgive because I have been forgiven. I still hurt and feel rejection regularly. I haven't seen anyone giving any advice from the author of marriage (God) in this forum yet. Paul the apostle warns that if we withhold ourselves from our spouse we "set them up to be tempted" by the devil himself. I suspect that your husband looks at porn. I used to really struggle with that. I'd go to it because IT didn't reject me. Was it wrong? yes. But I suspect that many of the ideas your husband has about wild sex are from outside sources. Let me be straight. My wife once turned into the woman I wanted and wanted sex and was genuinely hot and bothered for about three weeks once. I later was devastated to find out that she had been sexting her ex from 11 years ago during this exact same time. She confessed to me me one night because God convicted her. I know she didn't actually touch him, but the betrayal is the same. It has been over two years since then and the trust lost is still being built and is fragile. 
Gosh, I ramble too much. 
Here's the deal. Guys don't really want it everyday. Every other day maybe. Scientifically they need a release every 3 days. But more importantly than getting sex from their wife they want to be DESIRED. How do you think he feels about being wanted by you if when he approaches you and initiates sex he already EXPECTS to be turned down. Even on the occasions when you do give him sex he can easily tell if you are only doing it to get it over with, to "service him" as you called it before. It's insulting! It's degrading! and you can be sure that unless you husband loves God there will be a girl eventually who genuinely desires him. Who builds him up for the things HE IS DOING, instead of putting him down for what he isn't. What he wants is to be desired, wanted, valuable and the center of your affections. I would suspect that both of you are overweight because of the pent up stress and resentment in your lives (stress causes 80% of all sickness). Me and my wife have been married the same amount of time you and your husband have. Our son is 12. We lost a daughter of 12yrs old to cancer two years ago. We have had kids since the beginning. If the kids are a reason to not have sex, you need to stop that excuse now. The kids need a father more than you need to feel safe that they won't walk in. Buy a lock and train your child to knock if something is wrong. 

Do you really want your husband to come alive. Die to yourself, to your desires, to your needs, and be the spouse to him you want him to be to you. I guarantee that is you do that people will one day ask you why your marriage is so strong. 

I heard this story. A wife came to the pastor of her church and told him she wanted to divorce her husband. He asked her to only do one thing. He asked her to love her husband and to do for him the way she wanted to be treated for 30 days. He told her that if she did this and still wanted to divorce her husband that he'd understand. He didn't see her for a while. When he did see her he asked her, "Do you still want to divorce your husband?" She replied, "Are you out of your mind, I'm married to the most wonderful man alive."

It's easier to quit. It's easier to cast blame. I say, lay down your life as a sacrifice and give him what you know he NEEDS and do it with enthusiasm. Do it the way you want him to do things with you. How can you expect him to be enthusiastic about doing things you like if you are apathetic about things that you important to him. 

You reap what you sow. 
Sex vs. Emotional Need
It's a perfect standoff.
A Man feels loved when his wife makes love to him and gives him sex. This opens the door to his heart. This is what gets him to open up and be emotional the way you want.
A Woman feels loved through emotional connections (conversation, courting, etc.) and when a man does these things the wife opens up to him for sex.

If you withhold sex, HE DOESN'T FEEL LOVED, and HE DOESN'T BELIEVE you when you say you do. 
In the Same way if he withholds the emotional needs you have, YOU DON'T FEEL LOVED and YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIM.

Do you see the standoff. 
I promise you this. IF YOU MAKE HIM FEEL LOVED. HE WILL RECIPROCATE IT when HE BELIEVES you. It will take time. It took time to get into the place you are in. It took numerous silent glares, silent treatments, and other things to dig into the hole you in now. 

Your in a hole. To get out you have to fill the hole. I hope you fill it with love. If you do, I'm sure it won't be long before you feel like you have a great husband. A Happy husband gives sacrificially to his wife, he does things he doesn't want to because it pleases her. I do plenty of things I hate doing with my wife. I do this because I want her to feel loved. To be honest I'm on the opposite side of your delimma. I'm trying to get my wife to love me (sex) by giving her what she needs first. There are many times where I feel resentful and very angry. But, I purpose to forgive. Sometimes I'm more successful than others. 

Don't give up.


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## tryjezus (Aug 14, 2012)

eagleclaw said:


> You need to think this through. Your "change" is new to him. In fact with the problems you have had with swelling, and intercourse pain, and girl thing he probably really hasn't seen "much" of a change. So basically he has possibly heard some of your words, but all he is seeing is one excuse after another, after another. Don't get me wrong, I get that these are valid excuses. But he's not thinking, oh wow this is unusual something must be wrong. He's thinking wow, ANOTHER excuse.
> 
> That being said he needs to be more empethetic. But you can't expect this dynamic to change over night. He is not going to be more understanding, and more affectionate, and a changed man overnight. He hasn't even had a chance to really even SEE your changes yet. Words are words, action is all I go by.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I spent several hours reading through this entire post. What I see hear primarily is a failure to follow through. After the initial effort was made, a challenge presented itself, and instead of recognizing the challenge and moving on "bettertimes" seems to have reverted to her old self. This is understandable, since by her own confession she hasn't made much of an effort to change herself yet and these things take time.
Let me make this personal. The "only" thing about my marriage that I don't like is our sex life. As the guy I fill many of the traditional wife roles in the household, cooking, cleaning, etc. along with all of the normal male roles. I work full time and she is a full time student currently. For the previous 8 years I was the full time student and she worked full time. In the past her primary complaint was being too tired. I was the opposite of your husband "bettertimes" emotionally. I gave her almost everything she wanted and went and did whatever she liked to do. The more I did the more I resented her for neglecting me. For me the greatest struggle is that we only have sex when it is her idea. And... Because I get it so infrequently I have not managed to have the will power to turn her down (even when I'm angry). 
I said all this to say this.....
I stopped trying several times (because of rejection). My wife doesn't even realize she'd doing it most often when I casually touch her or make a pass at her. I can't count on all my digits the number of times the first words I've heard from her in the morning is what is wrong with her body (stomach hurts, vagina problem, headache, gotta go to work soon (several hours before), etc.) It got so bad once that I confronted her about it and pointed out to her that every time I even "hinted" about sex, whether I wanted it at that moment or not she was armed with an excuse why we couldn't have any that day. 

I'm still married because I forgive. I forgive because I have been forgiven. I still hurt and feel rejection regularly. I haven't seen anyone giving any advice from the author of marriage (God) in this forum yet. Paul the apostle warns that if we withhold ourselves from our spouse we "set them up to be tempted" by the devil himself. I suspect that your husband looks at porn. I used to really struggle with that. I'd go to it because IT didn't reject me. Was it wrong? yes. But I suspect that many of the ideas your husband has about wild sex are from outside sources. Let me be straight. My wife once turned into the woman I wanted and wanted sex and was genuinely hot and bothered for about three weeks once. I later was devastated to find out that she had been sexting her ex from 11 years ago during this exact same time. She confessed to me me one night because God convicted her. I know she didn't actually touch him, but the betrayal is the same. It has been over two years since then and the trust lost is still being built and is fragile. 
Gosh, I ramble too much. 
Here's the deal. Guys don't really want it everyday. Every other day maybe. Scientifically they need a release every 3 days. But more importantly than getting sex from their wife they want to be DESIRED. How do you think he feels about being wanted by you if when he approaches you and initiates sex he already EXPECTS to be turned down. Even on the occasions when you do give him sex he can easily tell if you are only doing it to get it over with, to "service him" as you called it before. It's insulting! It's degrading! and you can be sure that unless you husband loves God there will be a girl eventually who genuinely desires him. Who builds him up for the things HE IS DOING, instead of putting him down for what he isn't. What he wants is to be desired, wanted, valuable and the center of your affections. I would suspect that both of you are overweight because of the pent up stress and resentment in your lives (stress causes 80% of all sickness). Me and my wife have been married the same amount of time you and your husband have. Our son is 12. We lost a daughter of 12yrs old to cancer two years ago. We have had kids since the beginning. If the kids are a reason to not have sex, you need to stop that excuse now. The kids need a father more than you need to feel safe that they won't walk in. Buy a lock and train your child to knock if something is wrong. 

Do you really want your husband to come alive. Die to yourself, to your desires, to your needs, and be the spouse to him you want him to be to you. I guarantee that is you do that people will one day ask you why your marriage is so strong. 

I heard this story. A wife came to the pastor of her church and told him she wanted to divorce her husband. He asked her to only do one thing. He asked her to love her husband and to do for him the way she wanted to be treated for 30 days. He told her that if she did this and still wanted to divorce her husband that he'd understand. He didn't see her for a while. When he did see her he asked her, "Do you still want to divorce your husband?" She replied, "Are you out of your mind, I'm married to the most wonderful man alive."

It's easier to quit. It's easier to cast blame. I say, lay down your life as a sacrifice and give him what you know he NEEDS and do it with enthusiasm. Do it the way you want him to do things with you. How can you expect him to be enthusiastic about doing things you like if you are apathetic about things that you important to him. 

You reap what you sow. 
Sex vs. Emotional Need
It's a perfect standoff.
A Man feels loved when his wife makes love to him and gives him sex. This opens the door to his heart. This is what gets him to open up and be emotional the way you want.
A Woman feels loved through emotional connections (conversation, courting, etc.) and when a man does these things the wife opens up to him for sex.

If you withhold sex, HE DOESN'T FEEL LOVED, and HE DOESN'T BELIEVE you when you say you do. 
In the Same way if he withholds the emotional needs you have, YOU DON'T FEEL LOVED and YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIM.

Do you see the standoff. 
I promise you this. IF YOU MAKE HIM FEEL LOVED. HE WILL RECIPROCATE IT when HE BELIEVES you. It will take time. It took time to get into the place you are in. It took numerous silent glares, silent treatments, and other things to dig into the hole you in now. 

Your in a hole. To get out you have to fill the hole. I hope you fill it with love. If you do, I'm sure it won't be long before you feel like you have a great husband. A Happy husband gives sacrificially to his wife, he does things he doesn't want to because it pleases her. I do plenty of things I hate doing with my wife. I do this because I want her to feel loved. To be honest I'm on the opposite side of your delimma. I'm trying to get my wife to love me (sex) by giving her what she needs first. There are many times where I feel resentful and very angry. But, I purpose to forgive. Sometimes I'm more successful than others. 

Don't give up.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)




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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Read a little bit... Why can't husband be more understanding? Why can't wife just do oral?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I read the thread too. Bottom line is that the OP made an active effort to change herself for the better with the idea that her husband would notice the changes that she made and would automatically work on himself. Unfortunately, this only works if the husband has a high level of empathy and is self aware. Most of us men are not that in touch with our feelings. What she should have done was to work on communication first and foremost and then they could have developed a plan for how the BOTH of them TOGETHER would work to improve themselves and their marriage. 

Unfortunately, what I suspected happened was the OP threw herself into the marriage, the husband felt lucky that he started to get more sex, he began to take her for granted because she made these changes for him and he didn't have to do anything in return. Of course we all know what happens next, right? She blows her stack because she is sick and F'n tired of the only one giving in the marriage while he takes, take and takes some more. My guess is they are now in a worse place today than they were around the time of the beginning of this thread.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Not that you'll be likely to appreciate my perspective, but here it is:
> 
> If you turn the whole thing around and view it from his perspective (and I admit I don't know him or your specific situation) I can see him waking up and thinking, _"you know what would get my weekend trip to the lake off to a great start? Getting some sexual appreciation from my wife." _ Now, he might not have handled the situation with the greatest of tact and diplomacy, but hearing "I hate my life" in response isn't just going to invoke the feelings of rejection that all men struggle with, it's going to undermine everything that he feels he's contributed to your health, safety and well-being for weeks, months, or years.
> 
> ...


This post was brilliantly written. I agree with this, and also have my own thoughts coming.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> No disrespect thanks for posting this it is helpful for me to keep in mind the male interpretation of my thinking. I want to understand why you feel this way and I don't want you to be or feel attacked because I for on want to deepen my understanding of men and that is not possible if you feel that there is a cabal of women. We do think differently and we can help each other if we can express ourselves without concerns about being cooked.
> 
> I just wanted to repond to your post by asking what she should do given that, her misunderstanding of her husband is one issue but his attitude and unwillingness to give her the affection she needs is another. She said that she discussed this need with him and he has not changed. It appears that she continues to have sex with him. Maybe not exactly the way he wants but he still gets it. What should she do? Keep talking and giving him more of what he needs?
> 
> ...


I know this was said a while ago in the thread, but I have to reply. Just my two cents...this has probably already been said, but sex should not be something that a spouse gets _only_ when they have met the other needs of the other spouse. My husband comes hom from a day of work, hasn't been home all day, we likely haven't spoken all day...if he wants sex, he gets it. And not because sex is important to him, and effects him, but because sex is _mutual_. It's important to both of us and not having sex effects both of us. I made up my mind a long time ago, before we married, to make sex a top priority in our marriage. Right up there with communication and honesty. I think too many people see sex as "a man's thing", and that mentality deprived me of some much needed sex with my husband during our second year of marriage. Almost destroyed our relationship at one point. 

Sex _can be_, and in my opinion, _should_ be at least somewhat emotionally gratifying to both spouses, not just the men. I have worked hard each day to try and improve my own attitudes and thoughts about sex. If I deny sex to my husband, I am also denying myself an intimacy that can not be duplicated. If I waited to have sex with my husband until I got a bouquet of roses, it would be months between our sexual interludes. And, when I have been at fault in a situation before, I _did_ go and make love to my husband. When a vicious cycle is place where both spouses are keeping score on what is or is not done for each other, _someone_ has to break the cycle. The breaking of the cycle isn't cimplete, in my opinion, until one spouse does something to meet the needs of the other. For her, this would mean having sex. I think that this is a healthy action that will show her husband that she does love him and wants him to be happy. 

For me at least, words are only a small part of the equation. Doing what you say you will, or proving that you mean what you say through actions, is most important. Good intentions are simply not enough.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Should have looked at the date...lol.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

You should leave him. He'd probably be better off in the long run. Maybe he'll meet a woman that will find him desireable enough to have sex with him because you clearly don't.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

bettertimes said:


> You're right. It just goes to a deeper issue that makes me not want to service him... when it is "service or your day sucks" I guess I just said F it. Sometimes I feel that way... but I do see the need to TRY harder especially when I dont want to...not fair to him to have reacted that way.,.... because I assumed manipulative intentions.. he was probably just horny and trying to squeeze it in before hand... Wow..


I haven't read through the many pages of posts, so maybe someone has made this point...

You have a knee jerk reaction to, "Honey, I need to have sex this morning." 

What would your reaction be to, "Honey, I need to feel loved this morning." 

Add on your response to that request, 'I don't have time for that right now...don't you know how much we have to do this morning?! Beside, I have this and this and this going on with my body this morning, because of all of that, I can't possible give you any token of affection or appreciation. You have ruined my day, I hate my life.'

You are not 'servicing' your husband...to look at it that way it just awful. How would you feel if your husband tried to pull a guilt trip on you for providing for you and your child, or for doing the 'to do' list, or worse yet, for having to say 'I love you'? If you said, "I love you" to your husband, and instead of recognizing, he told you all the ways he didn't have time for that kind of stuff, and told you that he resented the fact that you even needed to hear him say it...you would be deeply hurt. 

I know what it's like to be in your shoes though...for a great many years, I told my husband, to his face, that his needs were not as important as mine. I didn't realize that was what I was doing until it was almost too late. It's taken a year to heal the intense damage we caused one another, all because neither of us wanted to admit our own parts in it.

I wish you the best of luck. The hardest thing you will ever, ever do in your life; living with someone else. But it can also be the most rewarding thing.



Dagnabit! Fell victim to an old thread!!!


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> You should leave him. He'd probably be better off in the long run. Maybe he'll meet a woman that will find him desireable enough to have sex with him because you clearly don't.


Agreed, you should definitely leave him, for a man. And men don't throw temper tantrums because they couldn't get any nookie in the morning. Horny teenagers do that and its very unappealing. No wonder you dont desire to have sex with him, women enjoy sex with men, not teenage boys. You should have left him there, and enjoyed your day anyway, and maybe even invited someone else to enjoy it with you. And then he would be free to spend his day making fart noises with his armpits, spitballs or whatever else teenage boys do. A man, my man anyway, would have attempted to seduce me if he was really craving some morning play time, kisses on my neck etc. But if he could tell I wasn't getting into it, he would have backed of and helped me prepare for our day ad tried again later in the evening. He doesn't like obligaory sex from me, seems like your teeage husband doesn't mind it from you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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