# Emotional Extortion



## Single Malt (May 2, 2013)

I have read some stories here, and other sites, where there are problems in the marriage, one spouse cheats, both decide to reconcile, and some WS's will say that their BS now acts how they want and is the person they want them to be.

At another site a few have said/insinuated that their affair was the best thing that happened to them to basically force their spouse to behave as they wish. To me thats basically emotional extortion.

I can't imagine if I were to have stayed with my x-wife, worked on, if any, things I needed to work on in the marriage, then come to a site and find her telling the forum that I now act as she wants because of her infidelity.

At this site I don't think there are many BS's that wouldn't admit that there are problems in a marriage that both spouses needed to tend to, but the responsibility for the cheating solely rests on the cheater. 

So BS's, what would you do if you reconciled and worked on the marriage, then came to a site where your WS is basically saying that because they cheated, you are now the person they want you to be? Don't know about anyone else, but that would set me back in reconciliation efforts if I read that.

I just think that if both are truly reconciling that the cheating spouse shouldn't be holding the view that this is something "good" that came out of their affair.

Thoughts?


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

Im afraid to post anything. The showers of condescending people like to cite the latest author, and evidently none of us stand a chance when it comes to the best seller lists...

A WS saying something like that on a website would be making something good out of a situation that has no honor or respect to it. I agree that it would be a crummy thing and I would resent it.

My ex had no intention of ever unlocking her cellphone or giving up passwords. To her, that was an invasion, and I should "trust" her, even after her proving no trust could be given.
A marriage can be bad, and can be worked on as both people always share some blame, but "cheating" and not working out the issues or even trying? How does one keep from causing that?


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

Single Malt said:


> I have read some stories here, and other sites, where there are problems in the marriage, one spouse cheats, both decide to reconcile, and some WS's will say that their BS now acts how they want and is the person they want them to be.
> 
> At another site a few have said/insinuated that their affair was the best thing that happened to them to basically force their spouse to behave as they wish. To me thats basically emotional extortion.
> 
> ...


I'd be angry, yes. But mostly because it'd be a lie. Though we went to MC I didn't have anything really to work on.. I'll never really know why he cheated.. As explained in another thread my MC told us my hubby needs to feel challeng and I'd ceased being a challenge.. I had sex with him 20+ times a month, was physically attracted to him even though he's 50+lbs overweight, did his hobbies with him so we'd have things in common, had weekly dinners, made him my num 1 priority, I did little stuff galore (such as getting him a coffee drink while I'm put cause I know he'd love one, etc) and always talked about where I was emotionally.. If anything he ruined me.. All that stuff changed when he cheated.. Do if anything I think he'd come here an say how cheating ruined the best thing he had going..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If my WS was deluded enough to give himself all the credit for the positive changes I've made in myself since we've been reconciling, the door could not hit him fast enough as I kicked his ass out of it. Not a single thing I've done was because he cheated. They're because I realized I needed to make changes in order to be a better person. It has fvck all to even do with him.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

KimatraAKM said:


> I'd be angry, yes. But mostly because it'd be a lie. Though we went to MC I didn't have anything really to work on.. I'll never really know why he cheated.. As explained in another thread my MC told us my hubby needs to feel challeng and I'd ceased being a challenge.. I had sex with him 20+ times a month, was physically attracted to him even though he's 50+lbs overweight, did his hobbies with him so we'd have things in common, had weekly dinners, made him my num 1 priority, I did little stuff galore (such as getting him a coffee drink while I'm put cause I know he'd love one, etc) and always talked about where I was emotionally.. If anything he ruined me.. All that stuff changed when he cheated.. Do if anything I think he'd come here an say how cheating ruined the best thing he had going..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely. I'm in the middle of all this right now, dday was barely two weeks ago and everything is up in the air. I've thought about what life will be for me if we divorce, and I know I won't be the same. I was generous, caring and attentive as a husband. What did that get me? Heart broken, trust shattered. Why hold onto some fictitious moral code anymore? The world is full of takers and users. To try to be different leaves you vulnerable, makes you a target. The wounds on my heart are bleeding, but I know they will scar over. And when they do, I intend to crack open life's bones and suck the marrow out. 

Black death luxuriates in the raw, wailing agonies of Thebes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

Good grief did I marry wrong. I had gotten to the point that I was tired of there NEVER being "those little things", and even "big" things that meant the different between a good solid future, and one continuously mired in debt and the depression that goes with debt. She thought of herself only, and anything beyond her needs was too much of a sacrifice that no one had the right to ask for, it wasnt "fair".


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

It depends.

All of us try to find the silver lining, or the family heirloom salvaged from the ashes when the house burns down - if it's that kinda statement I'd be irked, but I'd understand the spirit of it (trying to find that positive among the loss).

If it was now I get what I want, I'd give give her the foot to butt boost out the front door.


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

Brokenshadow said:


> Absolutely. I'm in the middle of all this right now, dday was barely two weeks ago and everything is up in the air. I've thought about what life will be for me if we divorce, and I know I won't be the same. I was generous, caring and attentive as a husband. What did that get me? Heart broken, trust shattered. Why hold onto some fictitious moral code anymore? The world is full of takers and users. To try to be different leaves you vulnerable, makes you a target. The wounds on my heart are bleeding, but I know they will scar over. And when they do, I intend to crack open life's bones and suck the marrow out.
> 
> Black death luxuriates in the raw, wailing agonies of Thebes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So sorry to hear of your pain Brokenshadow.  it really makes you feel worthless and ugly for a while doesn't it? It makes you think about EVERY sweet memory you have of you spouse and wonder if he/she was thinking about OW/OM during it.. It makes you worry that new sexual position was something they got the idea to do from the "other".. 

Don't let it ruin who you are though.. Be stronger than you use to be.. Come out of it like a phoenix
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

It's just another part of the cheater's entitlement attitude. There are one or two posters here now that you can tell feel that way.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

KimatraAKM said:


> So sorry to hear of your pain Brokenshadow.  it really makes you feel worthless and ugly for a while doesn't it? It makes you think about EVERY sweet memory you have of you spouse and wonder if he/she was thinking about OW/OM during it.. It makes you worry that new sexual position was something they got the idea to do from the "other"..
> 
> Don't let it ruin who you are though.. Be stronger than you use to be.. Come out of it like a phoenix
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It makes me feel many things, but I'm not sure about worthless. I was in the deepest pit of depression for months, and she pulls this. This was her doing, her dumbass fault. I know many things about this man, and suspect it was more than just the EA she claims. He's 48, withgrown kids, she's 35 and I'm 30. No matter what, I can't think for a second that they would ever have what we had. She betrayed me when I was at my weakest, and unless she's real goddamn lucky she won't be around to see me at my best. What went into this relationship was a man, what is coming out is a Monster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Single Malt said:


> I have read some stories here, and other sites, where there are problems in the marriage, one spouse cheats, both decide to reconcile, and some WS's will say that their BS now acts how they want and is the person they want them to be.
> 
> At another site a few have said/insinuated that their affair was the best thing that happened to them to basically force their spouse to behave as they wish. To me thats basically emotional extortion.
> 
> ...


It depends on the reason for the cheating. Was the affair started with the intention of changing the marriage (it sure does end up that way)? If it was the WS's intent to change the marriage by use of emotional extortion, then that would be a really fvcked up way of going through life. I would leave the WS in a second if I found that out. 

However, if the affair has the unintended effect of changing the BS "for the better," there may be something to it. Remember the posts by beta males that say "oh I wish this" and "oh I wish that"? Ridiculous, right? But if you as a woman, for example, were married to a wimp and he went alpha on you afterwards, wouldn't you feel that was better? 

You have to know the motive I suppose, for any of the above to be valid arguments.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

There is no excuse for cheating. You took someone who you thought you would be with till the end of your days and violated everything you vowed to uphold.

If there are things wrong in your marriage, you could have talked about them, threatened to leave, given ultimatums etc... In no way is adultery ever an option. If you don't respect your spouse maybe you need to D but cheating can never be condoned. If you think it's ok then you are delusional too and have no real self respect. IMHO


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## LoveMouse (Apr 22, 2012)

No matter what happens in life you should always learn from the mistakes.
I'm sure my X would have loved for me to be transformed into the man she was looking for and then brag about it to her friend, BUT lets face it, that's just sick, wrong, and disfunctional.
Her "new" husband was cheated on by his X, he didn't learn from his mistakes  but I'm sure he'll live to regret it. LMAO!!
Mouse


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## Paladin's Pride (May 7, 2013)

As a FWS, I hope you don't mind if I chime in here.
MovingAhead, you are absolutely right in stating that anyone who thinks that cheating should be condoned, for whatever reason, is delusional. I was suffering from a case of major depression at the time of my affair, and was literally experiencing delusions as a result. Coupled with being in the fog, which I learned about from this forum and from my husband, marriage counseling, reading, etc., I know now how absolutely WRONG I was to choose to engage in an affair in the first place. A marriage is forever, vows are binding and made for a reason. I should never have done what I did. 

I have never gone to any of those sites that talk about how to deceive your partner while having an affair, so I cannot speak to that. But I will never go online, or even discuss in person, that I think that my completely inappropriate relationship with a man other than my husband resulted in my husband changing for the better. It didn't, and I sure as heck don't think that way. To do so would be to demean the kind of work and effort that my husband has chosen to undertake toward our marriage. In other words, my husband (honey, chime in if you'd like) has stated that the issues our marriage was suffering from (before I ever spoke with the OM) could be considered the fault of each of us equally. 50-50, if you will. The decision to engage in an affair? 100% my fault. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. No excuses. I take full responsibility for that fact and am forever grateful that my husband has chosen to forgive me, that he took me back, and that he still wants to continue being married to me.

Since then, we have decided to seek out the silver lining, as carolinadreams mentioned, not of the affair, but of the work we have had to do since then. We do our best to meet each other half way. Instead of accepting certain things as fact, like believing that our relationship was infallible, we make sure to question everything, keep things completely transparent, and never rest on our laurels. 

For all the BS here, I am so sorry that you have experienced this kind of betrayal. If I could go back and change what I did, I would. There are no words for the kind of regret I feel. I will forever consider myself lucky that my husband chose to take me back.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

So, you have a marriage in difficulties. One partner decides to address these difficulties by improving themselves. The other decides that the way to deal with these difficulties is to have an A. 

In what deluded universe is the second partner responsible for the improvements in the first? 

Any WS who says that they got a win/win - the excitement of an affair and a brand new spouse - is still in the fog. they are thinking entirely selfishly and have not yet come to terms with the suffering that they have caused.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Paladin's Pride said:


> As a FWS, I hope you don't mind if I chime in here.
> MovingAhead, you are absolutely right in stating that anyone who thinks that cheating should be condoned, for whatever reason, is delusional. I was suffering from a case of major depression at the time of my affair, and was literally experiencing delusions as a result. Coupled with being in the fog, which I learned about from this forum and from my husband, marriage counseling, reading, etc., I know now how absolutely WRONG I was to choose to engage in an affair in the first place. A marriage is forever, vows are binding and made for a reason. I should never have done what I did.
> 
> I have never gone to any of those sites that talk about how to deceive your partner while having an affair, so I cannot speak to that. But I will never go online, or even discuss in person, that I think that my completely inappropriate relationship with a man other than my husband resulted in my husband changing for the better. It didn't, and I sure as heck don't think that way. To do so would be to demean the kind of work and effort that my husband has chosen to undertake toward our marriage. In other words, my husband (honey, chime in if you'd like) has stated that the issues our marriage was suffering from (before I ever spoke with the OM) could be considered the fault of each of us equally. 50-50, if you will. The decision to engage in an affair? 100% my fault. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. No excuses. I take full responsibility for that fact and am forever grateful that my husband has chosen to forgive me, that he took me back, and that he still wants to continue being married to me.
> ...


Thank you for your post Paladin's Pride. It is good to see a former wayward spouse post showing that they feel remorse for what they've done wrong. I don't know if you have started a thread or not, but maybe think about doing so to give your point of view on what happened. I promise you it won't be easy, but I can say there are a lot of betrayed spouses who can possibly benefit from dialogue with you.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Single Malt said:


> I have read some stories here, and other sites, where there are problems in the marriage, one spouse cheats, both decide to reconcile, and some WS's will say that their BS now acts how they want and is the person they want them to be.
> 
> At another site a few have said/insinuated that their affair was the best thing that happened to them to basically force their spouse to behave as they wish. To me thats basically emotional extortion.
> 
> ...


I've seen posts like that in some other forums, where the WS posts that the affair was a wake up call for their BH and now the marriage is better than ever...for the WS. Almost as if it was a reward for them. This shows no remorse for the affair and that the affair was justified. No lesson learned, and they will cheat again if their BH doesn't toe the line or gets boring again.

If I found that out there would only be one sentence from me:

GTFO I'm done.


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## Single Malt (May 2, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> It depends on the reason for the cheating. Was the affair started with the intention of changing the marriage (it sure does end up that way)? If it was the WS's intent to change the marriage by use of emotional extortion, then that would be a really fvcked up way of going through life. I would leave the WS in a second if I found that out.
> 
> However, if the affair has the unintended effect of changing the BS "for the better," there may be something to it.


Intended or not, if someone I decided to give a 2nd chance to said they were glad they had the affair because things are "better", it would still piss me off.

I can see the conversation:

Me: "So you are kind of glad you had the affair because now things are better? Well then, I guess I get to go out and have an affair in the hopes that it makes you into the person I expect to be with."

When reversed, no matter the intent, I don't think it would be well received.

Not trying to invalidate your thoughts on it because I can see what you are getting at. For me it just really wouldn't matter.


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## Single Malt (May 2, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Thank you for your post Paladin's Pride. It is good to see a former wayward spouse post showing that they feel remorse for what they've done wrong. I don't know if you have started a thread or not, but maybe think about doing so to give your point of view on what happened. I promise you it won't be easy, but I can say there are *a lot of betrayed spouses who can possibly benefit from dialogue with you*.


I completely agree, unless the dialogue content is that of blameshifting or thinking the affair was good because it brought about changes in the BS.

But we aren't getting that from Paladin. No blameshifting or thinking the affair was good.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I think in "most" cases, this so called emotional extortion by the WS is not intentional, or at least that wasn't the intention of the affair. 

But this perception of the WS can be a mental conundrum for the BS. If the WS perceives a healthier marriage has resulted in the wake of their infidelity, how should the BS feel about that? I don't know, but I'm sure my WW feels this way. Though she is so careful not to offend me, she would never say it. 

So, I have two thoughts on this.

If the WS has otherwise received all due consequences (you know the list) and is doing the heavy lifting, those "she's getting rewarded for her cheating" thoughts should be lessened. Unfortunately in my situation, I wasn't educated enough at the time to deal all of them out the way I should have. Thus, I have those "she's getting rewarded for her cheating" thoughts from time to time. It sucks.

But I also try to realize that if R is to be successful, and the marriage is to improve, the BS has to do their share of working on the marriage. As I've mentioned before, I believe there are two separate phases in this process. 

Getting to the point of agreeing and committing to R.

Then once there, trying to meet each others needs and affair proof the marriage.

Just one other thing a BS had to deal with in R.


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## Single Malt (May 2, 2013)

badmemory, that makes sense.

Thats why I always say, especially in the case of a WS thinking the affair was a good in the sense the marriage is supposedly "better", that a WS should lose some of the privileges of a trusting spouse. Make the marriage better(I don't believe that is truly possible, but to each their own), don't make mention that they think the affair helped, and don't expect a BS to be as understanding of things the WS liked to do that provided a more conducive environment for cheating.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Single Malt said:


> badmemory, that makes sense.
> 
> Thats why I always say, especially in the case of a WS thinking the affair was a good in the sense the marriage is supposedly "better", that a WS should lose some of the privileges of a trusting spouse. Make the marriage better(I don't believe that is truly possible, but to each their own), don't make mention that they think the affair helped, and don't expect a BS to be as understanding of things the WS liked to do that provided a more conducive environment for cheating.


Yeah Single Malt,

That's part of the heavy lifting required by the CS. I'm not trying to say the BS should be saintly or ignore their own feelings as part of "working on the marriage". 

In fact, I think the BS should start an ongoing discussion about the A, from time to time - just to keep the CS grounded in reality. Perhaps less and less as time passes.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

badmemory said:


> If the WS has otherwise received all due consequences (you know the list) and is doing the heavy lifting, those "she's getting rewarded for her cheating" thoughts should be lessened. Unfortunately in my situation, I wasn't educated enough at the time to deal all of them out the way I should have. Thus, I have those "she's getting rewarded for her cheating" thoughts from time to time. It sucks.


Me too. WAW had an affair (not sure if EA or PA) 8 or 9 years ago now. We argued about it but at the end of the day I didn;t do too much about it as, like you, I didn't know what to do. So although I was fully prepared to do what was necessary I effectively rug swept through ignorance. I eventually forgave her. I know she enjoyed the attention from OM briefly, but I don;t think it went on for more than a few weeks and I'm not sure how much she got out of it. But now I'm wondering whether there was a circuit formed in her brain that said "affair = good" that made it inevitable that she would cheat again. 


But I also try to realize that if R is to be successful, and the marriage is to improve, the BS has to do their share of working on the marriage. As I've mentioned before, I believe there are two separate phases in this process. 



badmemory said:


> In fact, I think the BS should start an ongoing discussion about the A, from time to time - just to keep the CS grounded in reality. Perhaps less and less as time passes.


I'm just wondering whether the WS has to be punished forever (and they will see uncomfortable talk of the A as punishment) or whether there comes a time when they are fully forgiven and the A completely consigned to the past.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> I'm just wondering whether the WS has to be punished forever (and they will see uncomfortable talk of the A as punishment) or whether there comes a time when they are fully forgiven and the A completely consigned to the past.


Perhaps one day I'll feel differently; but I don't ever foresee a time when the A is consigned to the past. It doesn't define who I am, but I'll never forget about it. 

Forgiveness? Not there yet. It's been 18 months, but this was a particularly brutal betrayal.

I don't see it as punishment if I just want to talk about it in a calm, non-threatening manner. What's the alternative? Shut the hell up and internalize it? Just like the BS, the CS has their cross to bare.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I don't see it as punishment if I just want to talk about it in a calm, non-threatening manner. What's the alternative? Shut the hell up and internalize it? Just like the BS, the CS has their cross to bare.


If it's to work through the issues then it is not only appropriate but necessary. If it is just to make the WS feel uncomfortable then it's punishment.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

HAHA
Love this thread, my WS said the same thing to me a couple of times once was the night right before I confronted her we were talking about another couple that were starting the divorce process due to the wife cheating about an hour later I confronted her, the other time was a few days after the first.
Let me comment for all you WS that may be here and read this stuff
It's like hitting some one in the head with a baseball bat because they have a bee on their head and you don't want it to sting them

It's like burning down your house with all your stuff inside because you don't like the color it's painted, you can get the house rebuilt and get new stuff and on the surface everything will be all shiny and new but you will have lost many of the things you cared about in the first place

It's like tearing someone's heart out thinking you can fix it even though you have no medical training and then handing it back when you find out you can't

It's like you pushing Humpty Dumpty off a 40 story building and then thinking he can be put back together again you may get his shell back together but all his insides will be scrambled for the rest of his life

It's like---- well you get my point, if you wanted a better marriage there are many other ways to go about fixing it or just leave and find someone who better suits your needs

In reality it's just another lame A*s excuse by a cheater to cover up the fact they are selfish, have lost all respect for you and don't care about you your marriage, or your children if you have any.

And finally it's just another sick way for them to rationalize their behavior when deep down they know they are on the same level as murderers, rapists, child molesters, and anyone who physically abuses someone weaker than they are, a c*ck roach has more value in this world then they do.

To answer everyone's question yes we are working on reconciling but I have finally decided the rules need changed one way or another, only took me a year.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> If it's to work through the issues then it is not only appropriate but necessary. If it is just to make the WS feel uncomfortable then it's punishment.


I agree, but those issues would include the BS needing to discuss things - even if only to help him/her cope. To me there shouldn't be an expiration date on the CS's willingness to discuss it. Part of showing that they're remorseful is their willingness to have these discussions and not pull the "you need to get over this" card.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

IMHO, there is no way that the marriage can ever be better because of one issue: Trust.

The unconditional, and in some cases, blind trust that you had for your WS is gone. Sure, trust can be rebuilt, perhaps even to 99% even, but it will never be back at that 100%....in many cases. Just the fact that you *now* know that your spouse is capable of cheating and crossing that line, will be in the back of your mind. That is the tough part of R. Its no different than when a person kills someone in anger in the heat of the moment and is convicted of manslaughter. Sure, the person may not be a sociopathic killer and can be reintegrated into society. But just the fact that the person has taken another human life but he can never be trusted like a person with a clean record will be. 

So can a marriage recover from infidelity? Most definitely. But it will be different but not better I think.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Meh. I can't see how an affair would make a marriage better. Seems like if things did improve it would be despite the affair. I'd say the only good thing to come out of my EA is that I am learning to speak up and be honest about what I need. Quite frankly, I was terrified to tell my husband how lonely and sad I was. And that was soooooo unfair to him.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

The affair didn't make the marriage better it nearly destroyed mine

The fact we both focused and spent energy on saving it was what made it better

The affair wasn't needed for us to do that


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

love=pain said:


> In reality it's just another lame A*s excuse by a cheater to cover up the fact they are selfish, have lost all respect for you and don't care about you your marriage, or your children if you have any.
> 
> And finally it's just another sick way for them to rationalize their behavior when deep down they *know* they are on the same level as murderers, rapists, child molesters, and anyone who physically abuses someone weaker than they are, a c*ck roach has more value in this world then they do.


*NO*.......... That is wrong on so many levels I don't have the time, energy or desire to respond. Except to say that it is quite possible to lose all respect for your spouse and not care about your marriage, but to love your children with every ounce of your being. 




love=pain said:


> To answer everyone's question yes we are working on reconciling.........


If you truly believe what you wrote above then WHY would YOU want to reconcile with HER. And, if you truly believe what you wrote above, WHY would SHE want to reconcile with YOU.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> The affair didn't make the marriage better it nearly destroyed mine
> 
> The fact we both focused and spent energy on saving it was what made it better
> 
> The affair wasn't needed for us to do that


Exactly. 

Just because the marriage is better after the affair doesn't mean the affair made it better.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

EI said:


> Except to say that it is quite possible to lose all respect for your spouse and not care about your marriage, but to love your children with every ounce of your being.


The children are a product of the marriage. How is it possible to dishonour the marriage by cheating without dishonouring the children?

Also, if you love the children with every ounce of your being you put them first, right? Above anything else. The inevitable emotional fall out from an A ALWAYS affects children. How is that putting them first or loving them with every ounce of your being?

Sorry to be so blunt, but my STBXW is currently breaking the hearts of the children she claims she loves by choosing to spend the bulk of her spare time with POSOM, pretending to be single and without family responsibilities. 

An A is the ultimate in selfishness and hurts EVERYONE around you.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

EI said:


> *NO*
> If you truly believe what you wrote above then WHY would YOU want to reconcile with HER. And, if you truly believe what you wrote above, WHY would SHE want to reconcile with YOU.


Because I do love her, because I have maybe a far fetched dream that we will come out of this ok not better but we will figure out a new way to exist that is good for us that satisfies our needs.

But I am not silly enough to gloss over exactly who she was who she is now and who she can be, everything I wrote about her and any other cheater is true(at least to me). Just because I see her faults doesn't mean I can't love her and we can't have a relationship it means I must make sure that the boundaries are in place and to demand the respect and love that I deserve.

I might have a lion as a pet but I better never forget that it has sharp claws and teeth


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> IMHO, there is no way that the marriage can ever be better because of one issue: Trust.
> 
> The unconditional, and in some cases, blind trust that you had for your WS is gone. Sure, trust can be rebuilt, perhaps even to 99% even, but it will never be back at that 100%....in many cases. Just the fact that you *now* know that your spouse is capable of cheating and crossing that line, will be in the back of your mind. That is the tough part of R. Its no different than when a person kills someone in anger in the heat of the moment and is convicted of manslaughter. Sure, the person may not be a sociopathic killer and can be reintegrated into society. But just the fact that the person has taken another human life but he can never be trusted like a person with a clean record will be.
> 
> So can a marriage recover from infidelity? Most definitely. But it will be different but not better I think.


One of the biggest problems for me before the A *was* the unconditional love/trust I had for my partner. Through lots of IC and MC I was able to recognize that healthy adult love and trust _*has *_to be conditional. One has to have expectations of their partner in order to assign proper value to the relationship. Unconditional love should be reserved for young children, and as someone on TAM pointed out, pets. Also, most people have their hearts broken on one or more occasions during dating, helping them establish a healthy set of self preserving boundaries. In our case, since I met my partner when I was 15 (she was 14) I never had the chance to experience heartbreak, until her A, and never had the chance to learn how to have those self preserving boundaries that dictate that love and trust should be conditional. 

I will take 99% conditional adult love/trust. over 100% unconditional love/trust any day of the week.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Paladin said:


> I will take 99% conditional adult love/trust. over 100% unconditional love/trust any day of the week.


An excellent point and one that should be taken quite seriously for those that try the route of reconciliation.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I've said a similar sentiment as well


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Paladin said:


> Through lots of IC and MC I was able to recognize that *healthy adult love and trust has to be conditiona*l. One has to have expectations of their partner in order to assign proper value to the relationship. *Unconditional love should be reserved for young children, and as someone on TAM pointed out, pets.
> *
> *........ In our case, since I met my partner when I was 15 (she was 14) *I never had the chance to experience heartbreak, until her A, and never had the chance to learn how to have those self preserving boundaries that dictate that love and trust should be conditional.
> 
> *I will take 99% conditional adult love/trust. over 100% unconditional love/trust any day of the week.*


That is a tremendous amount of insight, Paladin. I might add that we all have certain physical and emotional needs. Within a marriage, there is an expectation that your spouse will try to meet the _reasonable_ physical and emotional needs that only a spouse should be meeting. When one partner systematically disregards their spouses _communicated_ needs for a prolonged period of time, the results can be devastating. This is about so much more than just sex, but sex is a vital part of a healthy marriage. If it is to one partner and not the other, there is going to be a problem. But, there are also needs for companionship, sharing of responsibilities, shared goals, etc. Healthy communication is essential. But, what happens when one partner is communicating and the other is simply not listening..... or worse, choosing to disregard their spouse's needs? I know, I know, the honorable choice...... DIVORCE..... Sometimes, no matter what the TAMers insist, that is simply not a viable option for some people. With all of that having been said, there is absolutely NO justification for infidelity. But, by the same token, there is no justification for disregarding your spousal obligations and then clinging to the the ideal of unconditional love and commitment to hold the relationship together. This does not describe ALL marriages or ALL infidelities. Obviously, I can only speak from personal experience.

B1 and I have been together since we were 16 and 17, so I can relate.

Yes, 99% conditional love/trust works better than the ideal of 100% unconditional love/trust. Because the 99% conditional love....... is real..... the 100% unconditional love is simply an untested, untried ideal. Unconditional love, to some degree, can be translated into a license to disregard your spouse's feelings and needs in favor of your own. WS's are not the only ones guilty of doing that.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Single Malt said:


> Intended or not, if someone I decided to give a 2nd chance to said they were glad they had the affair because things are "better", it would still piss me off.
> 
> I can see the conversation:
> 
> ...


Good point... I was sort of playing devil's advocate there. There's never a "good" reason for cheating. If I was on a desert island with a good looking woman and the whole rest of the world, as far as we knew, was gone (nuclear warr, whatever weird sci-fi scenario), I still wouldn't get it on with her because I couldn't. 

I. Love. My. Wife. 

There's no room for anything less than 150% effort towards our relationship. Nothing good comes from an affair -- ever. Everyone involved gets screwed over in one way or another, and obviously to different degrees. The spiritual debt alone would cause you to have to come back and make it up in another life. Who wants to do THAT?


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Paladin said:


> Through lots of IC and MC I was able to recognize that healthy adult love and trust _*has *_to be conditional. One has to have expectations of their partner in order to assign proper value to the relationship. Unconditional love should be reserved for young children, and as someone on TAM pointed out, pets.


:iagree: I had the hardest time with this until I realized that unconditional love in adult relationships = dangerous. There has to be that buffer. It has to be conditional for the sake of safety and self-preservation. Unconditional love leaves no room for such things.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Because I do love her, because I have maybe a far fetched dream that we will come out of this ok not better but we will figure out a new way to exist that is good for us that satisfies our needs.
> 
> But I am not silly enough to gloss over exactly who she was who she is now and who she can be, everything I wrote about her and any other cheater is true(at least to me). Just because I see her faults doesn't mean I can't love her and we can't have a relationship it means I must make sure that the boundaries are in place and to demand the respect and love that I deserve.
> 
> I might have a lion as a pet but I better never forget that it has sharp claws and teeth


Big difference between saying this and saying that you feel she has less value than a c*ckroach and is on the same level as murderers and child molesters. It sounds like you outright hate and despise her, not like you love her and think she's worth anything, so I was seriously shocked to read that you were trying to R. I'm not sure how that's going to work until you resolve this major conflict you have going on with how you feel about her.


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