# Is the AP free from accountability when the wayward Green Lights the Affair?



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I have heard this time and time again.. including on this forum.

There is a silly assumption that floats around suggesting the following : 

the third party interloper is not in any way accountable for the affair's happening because they were willingly invited by the wayward spouse into the affair. The wayward gave me permission...

Basically "the devil made me do it", or "he started it"

I hear this all the time.

I don't buy this argument one bit.

To begin with, accepting something that is not yours to use, that is offered in secret, that is offered only if someone else does not know about it is a pretty big red light that you are crossing a line.

I really don't care if someone gave you permission, you are still interloping into someone's marriage in secret, bringing violation and toxicity baggage along with you as soon as you walk in the door.

No one has the right to do this to someone else's marriage. I really don't care if a wayward "gave you" permission...

It's time to grow up and realize just because someone said it's OK does not mean it's OK.

Willfully choosing to buy and use stolen goods, goods you know to be stolen does not make you an innocent victim, it makes you an accomplice...


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> I have heard this time and time again.. including on this forum.
> 
> There is a silly assumption that floats around suggesting the following :
> 
> ...


They are equally as guilty.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

cantthinkstraight said:


> They are equally as guilty.


Yup, I think so too.. I hear excuses all the time like...

_I didn't take any vows... 

You can't poach what is given to you...

It's not home-wrecking if the home is already wrecked.
_

There are dozens of versions of this argument, they all bear the same flaw...

_No one, single or married has the right to trespass into someone else's marriage in secret... 
_

It does not matter if you didn't make vows, it does not matter if you are single.. you dont' have the right to interfere with another couple in secret...


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I agree with OP.

There was a wild and wooly discussion on this subject awhile back in the Men's Clubhouse: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/123593-why-do-men-hit-married-women.html

My bottom line, after sorting through all the arguments about culpability, morality etc., is that involvement with a married person means there is a good chance that someone (including children) will be hurt. Either you care about this or you don't, and you act accordingly.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I agree with you fully that the AP is accountable as well, but the WS is responsible for the affair. Sorry to say this, especially to those of you in "R", but too many BS's don't hold their WS's accountable enough and there is a lot of getting away scott free in the name of reconciling. THIS IS NOT TRUE IN ALL CASES, but I think it's true in most. Too much anger at the AP is misdirected because the BS can't get even with the WS.


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## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> I agree with you fully that the AP is accountable as well, but the WS is responsible for the affair. Sorry to say this, especially to those of you in "R", but too many BS's don't hold their WS's accountable enough and there is a lot of getting away scott free in the name of reconciling. THIS IS NOT TRUE IN ALL CASES, but I think it's true in most. Too much anger at the AP is misdirected because the BS can't get even with the WS.


Agreed,

I noticed when I was in R a while back, I was placing a lot of blame on OM instead of her. I wanted to get even with him more than her and Im still not sure why.

At the time, I wanted to nuke everything in sight and didnt care about who was accountable, everyone was going to pay for my hurt feelings, etc.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

if you want to reconcile with your spouse, you need to hold OP accountable to a significant degree... probably more accountable than your spouse.

This may not be factually accurate, but that's the best to way to get to point B in repairing the mess

And to be honest, the AP (if they are single) has no mess to clean up...

I always think the person that is exploiting is the person who dodges accountability, and the person that's getting used is the person(s) cleaning up the mess.

When the affair is ended and a couple decides to work on the marriage, the AP doesnt' have to do any of that clean up... they just find another home to violate and terrorize... they dont' have to earn back trust, apologize, or spend however many months in the penalty box... they just find someone else to have sex with.. I put more accountability on the people that aren't there cleaning up the mess...

If your wife cheats on you, and then reconciles with you and works to clean up the mess.. to my mind the OM is just a POS and is mostly to blame... he' does zero work to clean the whole thing up.. just enjoys using someone's wife and then moves on...

Typical predator, eat till you are full and then move on to the next kill...

Seriously, I dont' suggest that waywards are innocents here, but women and men prey on marriages with zero remorse... and I keep hearing the same "we didn't take any vows" arguments from them... It's beyond ridiculous.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Janky said:


> Agreed,
> 
> I noticed when I was in R a while back, I was placing a lot of blame on OM instead of her. I wanted to get even with him more than her and Im still not sure why.
> 
> At the time, I wanted to nuke everything in sight and didnt care about who was accountable, everyone was going to pay for my hurt feelings, etc.


I hope you were able to correct that situation, for your own sake.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

The AP is not to blame if they are mislead by the wayward spouse.

For example, and I've been in this situation.. A guy meets a girl on a dating site who lists her status as "separated but not divorced".

So we go on a first date, she tells me they're living apart, and they're getting divorced but it's taking a long time due to legal issues, but the marriage is essentially dead and buried. I decide to pursue the relationship. 

If it's all a big lie how the heck should I know? I mean, eventually the truth would come out, it has to, but early on? 

There's really no way to know. Lots of separating/getting divorced people out there who aren't going to put their dating life on hold because the courts are slow.

My divorce took 3 years. I was out there dating and getting involved with women from within a month from when the papers were filed and I moved out. There were many women who had no problem dating me even though I was married. They took my word for it that I was really getting divorced. They wouldn't have been culpable if I was lying and my loyal, faithful wife was waiting for me at home during that time.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> The AP is not to blame if they are mislead by the wayward spouse.
> 
> For example, and I've been in this situation.. A guy meets a girl on a dating site who lists her status as "separated but not divorced".
> 
> ...


ok,

1. I am married, but we are getting a divorce - this is beyond cliche.. grown adult women and men ought to know better than to believe that
2. fact check - the potential impact to yourself and to others is far too great to just take one spouse at their word - i know women who dated a married guy for three years and didn't bother to find out of he was actually married
3. consider the fact that this person may not be telling you the whole truth, after all you only are getting one side of things

I dont' know how many times I have heard a wayward tell people the marriage is dead, but you ask their spouse and the spouse has no freaking idea there is even a problem.

Seriously.. the AP is accountable if they

a. get involved with someone they know is married - sorry, until the paperwork is signed, you have no business starting anything with them
b. don't fact check - there are warning signs you are dating a married man just like there are warning signs of infidelity - do your research and follow up before you climb into bed with someone
c. don't care
d. believe obvious lies - my wife is crazy, my husband is abusive, I am sleeping on the couch, I just havent' signed the paperwork yet

sorry, people can be mislead to a degree, but at a point they are just lying to themselves.

I knew one woman who dated a guy for three years and never saw his home. THREE YEARS.

He never invited her to his place, she never asked about it or even asked for his address.

And she finds out he's married and is devastated? Seriously?

Yes, waywards will mislead women (usually women) into a grooming situation. I totally get that. But a lot of women fall for all the hold tricks that are so cliche they are laughable.

In my opinion even if a person IS divorced they should have a buffer of three months or so... especially if there are children involved.

This is a divorce taking place here, you are baking rice crispy squares!

You sign a paper and suddenly all your emotional issues are resolved?
You sign a paper and suddenly you are a changed person, reformed?
You sign a paper and suddenly you understand all the crap you brought into the marriage and wont' ever do that again?

People need time to process... and if they have'nt even signed paperwork yet I seriously seriously seriously doubt they have done any of that work yet...

If you are on a dating site, and you see a guy there who has his status posted as married but separated there is only one answer to that in my opinion.. PASS

Unless you plan on having a detailed interview with his wife to confirm everything he's posted here you have no business relying to his messages at all.

Steer clear.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Many people use age-old instincts/beliefs to assign blame for infidelity. It's common to believe that it's in a man's nature to take what is offered and he can't really be castigated for just doing what comes naturally. By the same token, a woman AP is seen by many as a homewrecker, i.e., she is the agent who is willfully attacking a family.

I personally give no moral passes based on gender. I believe that anyone engaged in an adulterous relationship is dishonorable. For me the only exceptions are extreme circumstances, like being a prisoner for life with an AWOL spouse.....


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> if you want to reconcile with your spouse, you need to hold OP accountable to a significant degree... probably more accountable than your spouse.


Sorry I disagree. While the OP is obviously accountable and should be ruined, in the end the spouse should be held mostly to blame. They are the ones who were supposed to love, honor and cherish you. Yes, the OP is a POS but I wasn't in a relationship with the OP. The reason I am hurting is cause my spouse threw me under the bus not the OP. There would not even be an OP if my spouse didn't green light the affair in the first place. The OP is simply the instrument of my spouse's infidelity. The spouse should assume most of the blame because they were supposed to be the one person we could trust. There will ALWAYS be POSOP's in society. If your spouse can't resist temptation then they are the problem, not the OP. If you have a moral spouse then the OP will simply prey on someone else.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> I was out there dating and getting involved with women from within a month from when the papers were filed and I moved out.


That may not be enough time, i really can't say...



> There were many women who had no problem dating me even though I was married.


And you think those are quality women worth your time?

Pass.



> They took my word for it that I was really getting divorced.


And they are fools then. Sorry. Either that or they are too disrespectful towards a woman they dont' know to care ...



> They wouldn't have been culpable if I was lying and my loyal, faithful wife was waiting for me at home during that time.


Unless they actually meet your wife and respect her enough to get her OK on this yes they are accountable. Just because you are comfortable with it does not mean your wife is.

Some people would like to be respected untlil the paper work is signed. And anyone choosing to disrespect that is being hurtful in my opinion.

Heck, even if your wife cheats on you I don't reccomend you go out and start dating... 

Be the better person and wait til the marriage is closed and resolved first. And you have a better chance of getting quality women that way.

If a woman will cheat with you while you are separated, they will cheat on you when you marry them.

I saw an episode of Dr phil the other day where a woman had been dating a married man for years.

She had no idea he was married. She was devastated when she hired a private investigator and found out...

She had been victimized, no doubt, but she was still in contact with him!

She found out he was married, living with his wife and his wife had no idea he was involved outside the marriage.. this woman kept emailing him. McGraw actually had to tell her to stop!


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I think almost every claim you made I would challenge as false.



BetrayedDad said:


> They are the ones who were supposed to love, honor and cherish you.


Really? Sorry, I expect perfect strangers to pay me enough respect not to violate my home, my marriage, and mount my wife. I expect any grown adult to stay away from a married woman.



BetrayedDad said:


> Yes, the OP is a POS but I wasn't in a relationship with the OP.


You have to be in a relationship with a man in order to expect him to leave your wife alone? Really?

Is that the ethic you advocate to single men? As long as you don't know the husband, the wife is a green light to violate?



BetrayedDad said:


> The reason I am hurting is cause my spouse threw me under the bus not the OP.


Sorry, they both throw you under the bus.



BetrayedDad said:


> There would not even be an OP if my spouse didn't green light the affair in the first place.


And there would not have been a spousal betrayal if the OP did not green light the affair int he first place.

If you know someone is married, thats a red light.. period, whether they say "yes" or not.

We are grown adults here.. dont' tell me a married wayward has to explicitly tell a grown adult to stay clear. These OP aren't children that need detailed instructions for goodness sakes. What's next.. classes for OP to teach them how to behave in public?



BetrayedDad said:


> The OP is simply the instrument of my spouse's infidelity.


That's crap... i know lots of women who were married and got seduced/manipulated/exploited too... 

You can assert one is an instrument of the other all you want, both OP and wayward are grown adults. Both know they are doing something hurtful, and both chose to do it anyways. Once is not the instrument of the other, that's ridiculous...



BetrayedDad said:


> The spouse should assume most of the blame because they were supposed to be the one person we could trust.


Sorry, I expect every grown adult to behave like a grown adult. And if they don't I hold them accountable for their choice to behave like a selfish adolescent.



BetrayedDad said:


> There will ALWAYS be POSOP's in society.


So that makes it OK to act like one? This point does not in any way remove accountability.



BetrayedDad said:


> If your spouse can't resist temptation then they are the problem, not the OP.


They are both a problem.

Men and women that don't respect their commitments when their spouse's back is turned is a problem.

Men and women who don't respect a marriage when the wayward's spouse's back is turned is a problem.

You seem to think OP are just innocent children here picking candy that someone dropped on the ground.

Sorry, these people are just as selfish, hurtful, and reckless as the wayward is in most cases.



BetrayedDad said:


> If you have a moral spouse then the OP will simply prey on someone else.


So that makes it ok? As long as it's some other poor shmuck? Again this point does not remove any accountability from the shoulders of the OP here...


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> The AP, many times has been said to be someone who understands. Well, he probably does and that's why they can get away with it much more easily. Even if he doesn't truly understand her, he makes her believe he does.


All these guys do is act like teenagers.

They smile and nod, ignoring everything your wife is saying, they are just looking at their watch and wondering how long it's gonna take to get into her pants.

They don't listen, they don't understand, and these guys do not care.

She just foolishly believes he does, not unlike any naive teenager would.

What I do'nt get is how women in their fourties, with children and a mortage can just decide to start acting like teenagers with zero awareness that they are being used.

Most of these guys that are sleeping with married women are indeed sleeping with multiple women.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Really? Sorry, I expect perfect strangers to pay me enough respect not to violate my home, my marriage, and mount my wife. I expect any grown adult to stay away from a married woman.


If you expect that then you're niave. There will ALWAYS be bad people out there who will shamelessly disrespect you. You will never be able to control or stop that. 




Allen_A said:


> You have to be in a relationship with a man in order to expect him to leave your wife alone? Really?


No, I just don't expect them to leave my spouse alone because they don't give a f*** about me. I do expect my spouse to keep her legs closed though.




Allen_A said:


> Is that the ethic you advocate to single men? As long as you don't know the husband, the wife is a green light to violate??


Why would I waste my time advocating behavior to anyone. They should of figured out right from wrong when they were boys. Good luck with that.




Allen_A said:


> And there would not have been a spousal betrayal if the OP did not green light the affair int he first place.
> 
> If you know someone is married, thats a red light.. period, whether they say "yes" or not.


You don't seem to get that there are people out there who DON'T CARE if a woman is married and will NEVER care. You want to assign more blame to the proud POS OM then to the cheating spouse who lies and pretends not to be a POS but secretly yearns to be one. What's worse?




Allen_A said:


> That's crap... i know lots of women who were married and got seduced/manipulated/exploited too...


No you don't. You just buy into a lot of sob stories. No one coerced them. They WANTED to f*** around because having illicit sex is a thrill for them... More niavety on your part.




Allen_A said:


> You can assert one is an instrument of the other all you want, both OP and wayward are grown adults. Both know they are doing something hurtful, and both chose to do it anyways. Once is not the instrument of the other, that's ridiculous...


You said the OP was more to blame. In my opinion, THAT is ridiculous. 




Allen_A said:


> Sorry, I expect every grown adult to behave like a grown adult. And if they don't I hold them accountable for their choice to behave like a selfish adolescent.


So do I but I hold my spouse to a HIGHER standard than some stranger. Therefore, I find them MORE accountable when they betray me because of that standard. Maybe you should too.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> What I don't get is how women in their fourties, with children and a mortage can just decide to start acting like teenagers with zero awareness that they are being used.


You don't get it because you're in a fog of disbelief. That woman KNOWS that the OP is using her for sex and gladly gives it to him in exchange for attention. What makes you think she is so foolish. She's not. You are if you believe otherwise...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> If you know someone is married, thats a red light.. period, whether they say "yes" or not.
> 
> We are grown adults here.. dont' tell me a married wayward has to explicitly tell a grown adult to stay clear.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Allen, I "liked" your entire post, but I wanted to highlight what struck me as most important.

What I *bolded* is what I believe to be the crux: The WS and the AP are BOTH accountable. The AP isn't an "accomplice"; he or she was a PARTNER. The 'crime' couldn't have been committed without the AP. Both the WS and the AP KNEW that they were doing something hurtful, because they also knew how THEY would have felt if THEY were a BS. 

Had they each followed the Golden Rule in the first place, NEITHER ONE OF THEM would have engaged in such hurtful behavior. 

Great post, Allen! :smthumbup:

Vega


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> 1. I am married, but we are getting a divorce - this is beyond cliche.. grown adult women and men ought to know better than to believe that


No, it's not cliche. There are a lot of people out there who are for all practical purposes, single and available. They're living separate and apart from their soon to be exspouse, they have little to nothing to do with them except dealing with children or financial matters. They're just waiting, like I did, for the long and slow court process to complete so they can get the judge's stamp on the paper and make it official. That does not mean they have to wait years to restart their lives over again. 



Allen_A said:


> 2. fact check - the potential impact to yourself and to others is far too great to just take one spouse at their word - i know women who dated a married guy for three years and didn't bother to find out of he was actually married


Right. "Trust, yet verify". Sure they could be lying when they say they're separated amd divorcing. Heck a married person with an innocent spouse at home doesn't even have to say they're separated. They could say anything. The key is not to take their word for it for too long. If things get serious with a woman, I'm going to be inside her house within a month or two, that's for damn sure. Anyone who goes out with someone for years and doesn't pick up on the fact that they have a spouse and children is.. rather foolish to say the least. 



Allen_A said:


> 3. consider the fact that this person may not be telling you the whole truth, after all you only are getting one side of things


Got it. Agree with you there. 



Allen_A said:


> a. get involved with someone they know is married - sorry, until the paperwork is signed, you have no business starting anything with them


Your choice, not mine. I've been through a painfully slow divorce, I've met many women who have been through painfully slow divorces. They weren't about to wait around, and neither would I. 



Allen_A said:


> People need time to process... and if they have'nt even signed paperwork yet I seriously seriously seriously doubt they have done any of that work yet...


That's true. Looking back, I started dating way too soon. My first girlfriend after my marriage was put through an emotional meatgrinder thanks to me jumping in with both feet when I really should have taken months or more to heal. But that's not really the topic of this thread. 



Allen_A said:


> Heck, even if your wife cheats on you I don't reccomend you go out and start dating...


Your choice. I don't think you'll find many who would agree with you there. You owe a cheater nothing. 



Allen_A said:


> Be the better person and wait til the marriage is closed and resolved first. And you have a better chance of getting quality women that way.


You're somewhat repetitive in your posts, but ok I'll bite again. I don't think a person who is willing to date a person who is separated - after verifying the facts- is any less quality than someone who waits for the divorce paperwork to be signed and sealed. Besides, who really checks divorce paperwork? Anyone that doesn't is leaving it up to trust anyway.



Allen_A said:


> If a woman will cheat with you while you are separated, they will cheat on you when you marry them.


That's a very nice statement Allen. It comes from "If she'll cheat with you she'll cheat on you" and you went and arbitrarily added the separated part to fit your post. Doesn't make it the least bit true.



Allen_A said:


> Really? Sorry, I expect perfect strangers to pay me enough respect not to violate my home, my marriage, and mount my wife. I expect any grown adult to stay away from a married woman.


You expect way too much from perfect strangers. You sir, are going to be very disappointed. 



Allen_A said:


> If you know someone is married, thats a red light.. period, whether they say "yes" or not.


I see it as a yellow light, not a red one. Proceed, with caution.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Vega said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Allen, I "liked" your entire post, but I wanted to highlight what struck me as most important.
> 
> ...


 I agree,you DO NOT mess with a married spouse or even a bf or gf.Ever!
Its wrong and that's why the AP tries to keep it under wraps.
My wifes didn't A didn't go physical and it would take a lot for her to get to that point but
the AP did lie,manipulate,con and kept working on her to find a crack in her armor.
He got frustraited when he could'nt get in her pants,so he kept it up.
I found out and exposed big time,my wife was shocked to see what a a-hole he really was,just another
Jerk trying to get laid,he messed with my family but did not like it at all when I re-paid the favor.
He was an old hs bf who didn't have sex with her back then and still didn't get to,
I feel it would have been a trophy in his mind for him.
Yes,my wife did find him on fb but he was the one to really push it and she stupidly
fell for it,thank God she came out of it and realized what he was trying to do.
Who's fault?....50/50 in my mind.
I can,could have gotten away with this if I wanted to.
I know if someone is married they are off LIMITS no matter what they say or do.
You're just asking for it.......and he got it and them some.
There are preditors out there who have paractice at this crap.
They know what they are doing but they don't care....at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I agree with you fully that the AP is accountable as well, but the WS is responsible for the affair. Sorry to say this, especially to those of you in "R", but too many BS's don't hold their WS's accountable enough and there is a lot of getting away scott free in the name of reconciling. THIS IS NOT TRUE IN ALL CASES, but I think it's true in most. Too much anger at the AP is misdirected because the BS can't get even with the WS.


This all depends. Do you want reconciliation or revenge?

I know which R I'd prefer.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Where did you get that idea? I've only ever heard the opposite on this forum.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> This all depends. Do you want reconciliation or revenge?
> 
> I know which R I'd prefer.


I prefer the Revenge "R" before I would even consider the "R" you prefer, otherwise I couldn't live with myself. (But that's just me)


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Sorry I disagree. While the OP is obviously accountable and should be ruined, in the end the spouse should be held mostly to blame. They are the ones who were supposed to love, honor and cherish you. Yes, the OP is a POS but I wasn't in a relationship with the OP. The reason I am hurting is cause my spouse threw me under the bus not the OP. There would not even be an OP if my spouse didn't green light the affair in the first place. The OP is simply the instrument of my spouse's infidelity. The spouse should assume most of the blame because they were supposed to be the one person we could trust. There will ALWAYS be POSOP's in society. If your spouse can't resist temptation then they are the problem, not the OP. If you have a moral spouse then the OP will simply prey on someone else.


Yep.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> If you expect that then you're niave. There will ALWAYS be bad people out there who will shamelessly disrespect you. You will never be able to control or stop that.


I think we just have different ideas of what the word expect means. I am not naive. I most certainly understand there are hurtful selfish people out there.

As far as controlling or stopping them, that's a straw man, I never said I could.

But I do expect people to respect me, my family, and my marriage. If they don't, I will hold them accountable and act accordingly when they don't.

I am not simply going to let some third party interloper off the moral hook simply because there are bad people out there.




BetrayedDad said:


> No, I just don't expect them to leave my spouse alone because they don't give a f*** about me. I do expect my spouse to keep her legs closed though.


I expect them both to act like adults. The fact that people don't always act like an adult is no reason to let them off the hook. We try and convict people because we have expectations that they ought to meet. When they don't meet these expectations, we put them away, we don't just let them off the hook.



BetrayedDad said:


> Why would I waste my time advocating behavior to anyone. They should of figured out right from wrong when they were boys. Good luck with that.


Then why waste your time posting here? If there's no point in advocating anything, why post?



BetrayedDad said:


> You don't seem to get that there are people out there who DON'T CARE if a woman is married and will NEVER care. You want to assign more blame to the proud POS OM then to the cheating spouse who lies and pretends not to be a POS but secretly yearns to be one. What's worse?


Yes I get that. Both OM and wayward wives lie, they are both lying. Both cheat, and both pretend.

What's worse? That's my question...



BetrayedDad said:


> No you don't. You just buy into a lot of sob stories. No one coerced them. They WANTED to f*** around because having illicit sex is a thrill for them... More niavety on your part.


I don't buy sob stories. I however don't mind read either. I realize that sometimes people make mistakes and do sincerely regret them.



BetrayedDad said:


> You said the OP was more to blame. In my opinion, THAT is ridiculous.


I think it depends on the circumstances. In almost every circumstance there is accountability to be shared by both of them. But to what degree varies considerably given the circumstances.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument that lets an OW or OM off the hook, despite the pathetic attempts to argue a case for just that.



BetrayedDad said:


> So do I but I hold my spouse to a HIGHER standard than some stranger. Therefore, I find them MORE accountable when they betray me because of that standard. Maybe you should too.


That's a better argument to make yes.

Then again... To what degree is what I expect from a spouse consistent with their degree of accountability?

My expectations and their accountability levels may differ.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> You don't get it because you're in a fog of disbelief. That woman KNOWS that the OP is using her for sex and gladly gives it to him in exchange for attention. What makes you think she is so foolish. She's not. You are if you believe otherwise...


I am in a fog?

No, I don't think so. I think infatuation can make people do stupid things they sometimes regret.

Sometimes they don't.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Vega said:


> What I *bolded* is what I believe to be the crux: The WS and the AP are BOTH accountable. The AP isn't an "accomplice"; he or she was a PARTNER. The 'crime' couldn't have been committed without the AP. Both the WS and the AP KNEW that they were doing something hurtful, because they also knew how THEY would have felt if THEY were a BS.



_accomplice
  Use Accomplice in a sentence
ac·com·plice
[uh-kom-plis] Show IPA
noun
a person who knowingly helps another in a crime or wrongdoing, often as a subordinate.
_

That is the question of this thread really.. to what degree is the AP accountable rather than a subordinate or as some here have said.. an instrument.

Myself i don't buy these "sob stories" of the AP being some innocent dupe who is simply blindly being used.

I think AP know what they are doing and ought to be held accountable.



Vega said:


> Had they each followed the Golden Rule in the first place, NEITHER ONE OF THEM would have engaged in such hurtful behavior.


Yup, it only takes one of them to say no and walk away. Only one.



Vega said:


> Great post, Allen! :smthumbup:
> 
> Vega


Thanks!


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> No, it's not cliche. There are a lot of people out there who are for all practical purposes, single and available. They're living separate and apart from their soon to be exspouse, they have little to nothing to do with them except dealing with children or financial matters. They're just waiting, like I did, for the long and slow court process to complete so they can get the judge's stamp on the paper and make it official. That does not mean they have to wait years to restart their lives over again.



_
cliche
cli·ché
[klee-shey, kli-] Show IPA
noun
1.
a trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence or phrase, usually expressing a popular or common thought or idea, that has lost originality, ingenuity, and impact by long overuse, as sadder but wiser, or strong as an ox.
2.
(in art, literature, drama, etc.) a trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of color, musical expression, etc.
3.
anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse. 
_

Yes I'm afraid it is very much a cliche. You seem to have the idea that cliche means it's false each and every time.

No, I don't doubt there are spouses out there who are indeed divorcing and will not remarry. But there are far too many out there who exploit that situation (either falsely or in all honesty) to get into a relationship before their existing marriage is really and completely finished.

The selfish as usual ruin it for those who are honest. It's just an unfortunate fact of life.

However starting your life does not have to be put on hold, just dating. You seem to think until you are dating and with someone else regularly that your life is on hold, it's not.



lenzi said:


> Right. "Trust, yet verify". Sure they could be lying when they say they're separated amd divorcing. Heck a married person with an innocent spouse at home doesn't even have to say they're separated. They could say anything. The key is not to take their word for it for too long. If things get serious with a woman, I'm going to be inside her house within a month or two, that's for damn sure. Anyone who goes out with someone for years and doesn't pick up on the fact that they have a spouse and children is.. rather foolish to say the least.


I would suggest at the very least verify facts before having sex.

And yes, we do seem to agree that people can be willfully blind... waiting years before even going into someone's home.



lenzi said:


> Your choice, not mine. I've been through a painfully slow divorce, I've met many women who have been through painfully slow divorces. They weren't about to wait around, and neither would I.


I would have to think about it...



lenzi said:


> That's true. Looking back, I started dating way too soon. My first girlfriend after my marriage was put through an emotional meatgrinder thanks to me jumping in with both feet when I really should have taken months or more to heal. But that's not really the topic of this thread.


Yes, that's my concern for those who are indeed divorcing.. that the paperwork has nothing to do with emotions. My thinking is that the emotions are usually not ready until well after the paperwork is signed. I honestly don't think it's fair to date anyone until your marriage is over in your head.

case in point from this forum : 



Rugs said:


> Well, the ink is dry on my divorce papers and we both have moved on.
> 
> I have a potential date but he (I think) is still hurting from his divorce. I don't think I want to be a transitional person because it seems depressing.
> 
> ...


Some people use others to push their head to that point. They think if they have sex with someone else, that will clean up the mess and get them to move on. I find this a rather sick use of another human being.



lenzi said:


> Your choice. I don't think you'll find many who would agree with you there. You owe a cheater nothing.


It has nothing to do with owing the cheater. I owe myself better than that. If my wife starts cheating, I owe myself better than to become a person who will unfairly drag someone else into our issues, and I owe the potential third party more respect than that as well.



lenzi said:


> You're somewhat repetitive in your posts, but ok I'll bite again. I don't think a person who is willing to date a person who is separated - after verifying the facts- is any less quality than someone who waits for the divorce paperwork to be signed and sealed. Besides, who really checks divorce paperwork? Anyone that doesn't is leaving it up to trust anyway.


I will have to think on it. I think that there are just way too many people who are not hesitant enough to get involved in a married person's life, or a divording person's life... there are a lot of emotional issues that the divorcee needs to resolve. I find it hard to believe that can all be sorted out before the paper work is actually done.

It takes a very long time.



lenzi said:


> That's a very nice statement Allen. It comes from "If she'll cheat with you she'll cheat on you" and you went and arbitrarily added the separated part to fit your post. Doesn't make it the least bit true.


It's my position at the moment. I don't think people that are willing to endanger a marriage or play fast and loose with someone exiting a marriage has a lot of maturity. I find it a hallmark of maturity when a third party steps away and tells a wayward, divorcee that they aren't ready for anyone yet... 

It takes a lot of maturity to do that. And that's the kind of person worth dating.



lenzi said:


> You expect way too much from perfect strangers. You sir, are going to be very disappointed.


Again people don't seem to understand the word expect.

It just means I hold people to a standard. I will make them accountable and bring consequences to bear where they fall below that standard.

This does not make me naive or foolish.



lenzi said:


> I see it as a yellow light, not a red one. Proceed, with caution.


I will have to think on it... in most cases this is a red light presented as a yellow one.

That's my concern... and I will pose as a question...

How many people out there in percent are

a. divorced and ready emotionally to start a new relationship
b. divorced and not ready
c. divorcing and ready emotionally to start a new relationship
d. divorcing and not ready
e. wayward (confused, vulnerable, and self destructive)
f. married and just trolling

my thinking is that the % in the C range is rather small relative to the whole...

Think of A - F as a percent and try to break that down...


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

calvin said:


> I agree,you DO NOT mess with a married spouse or even a bf or gf.Ever!
> Its wrong and that's why the AP tries to keep it under wraps.


My thinking is that there are a lot more willing male poachers than there are female. My thinking is that a lot more females are groomed and duped into becoming OW.

I honestly have trouble imagining any guy being duped and groomed against his better judgement.



calvin said:


> My wife's didn't A didn't go physical and it would take a lot for her to get to that point but
> the AP did lie,manipulate,con and kept working on her to find a crack in her armor.
> He got frustrated when he couldn't get in her pants,so he kept it up.


Men can be persistent poachers yes.



calvin said:


> I found out and exposed big time,my wife was shocked to see what a a-hole he really was,just another
> Jerk trying to get laid,he messed with my family but did not like it at all when I re-paid the favor.


Exposure works well when the OM is married. It's rather pointless if he's just some single guy poaching at your wife.



calvin said:


> He was an old hs bf who didn't have sex with her back then and still didn't get to, I feel it would have been a trophy in his mind for him. Yes,my wife did find him on fb but he was the one to really push it and she stupidly fell for it,thank God she came out of it and realized what he was trying to do.


I still don't know how to convince a married female they are being used... they often just think they are "in love" and don't get it.. it would take a lot to wake them up.

But yes, I agree with you, almost every OM is just poaching and trying to get into a woman's pants. Less so with women, who I think can often want an honest relationship and a future.. they are just selfishly going about it the wrong way.



calvin said:


> Who's fault?....50/50 in my mind.


I think it depends on the situation. My main point is I can't imagine a single case where the OP is not to blame at all.



calvin said:


> I can,could have gotten away with this if I wanted to.
> I know if someone is married they are off LIMITS no matter what they say or do. You're just asking for it.......and he got it and them some.


Again, if they are single, there's not much you can do...



calvin said:


> There are predators out there who have practice at this crap.
> They know what they are doing but they don't care....at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup, these men just get an ego boost from violating marriages... And it's a rather sick and hurtful lifestyle to choose.

I just quietly hope they all get married one day and get cheated on.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> This all depends. Do you want reconciliation or revenge?
> 
> I know which R I'd prefer.


Well aid Matt.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> Where did you get that idea? I've only ever heard the opposite on this forum.


There are several on this forum, and on this thread who claim the OP is just an instrument, a willing dupe, etc...

I don't agree, but this idea is rampant in general, and even exists on this forum.

I can find you posts if you want...


----------



## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I am in a fog?
> 
> No, I don't think so. I think infatuation can make people do stupid things they sometimes regret.
> 
> Sometimes they don't.


Allen I'm sorry your in so much pain.. Trust me I've been through this 4 times with my STBXW.. 

There is no infatuation.. Infatuation is what teenagers have.. 

I will agree that the OP has their own percentage of fault. Personally for me and I mean for me only.. I classify it as 70% my Ex and 30% POS OM.. 

I remember when I was younger.. I was cutting out of class and doing all the wrong things.. A teacher/guidance counselor came up to me in the hallway in High School. He said this to me..

*"Bobby, What happen to you. You used to be such a nice guy and a good young man."*

I knew what I was doing was wrong.. It was that day I turned my life around.. He will never know that one sentence turned me around.. 

Yea OM is a POS because he came all the way from new orleans to hold my wifes hand through this divorce. Mind you he came here to be with her. She was going to leave me, I just caught her before her plans were set in motion.. 

He knew she was married.. 
He knew he was sneaking around behind my back with her.. 

But like you said numerous times.. They are adults.. He didn't cast any magic spell over my wife to take her cloths off and fvck him.. She did that willingly.. 

She could have said no a MILLION TIMES... At any point she could have just cut it off and just lived her life.. Heck when I caught her and we were in reconciliation she could have just fixed this with us.. 

BUT SHE DIDN'T.. 
SHE CHOSE TO LIE TO ME DURING OUR FAKE RECONCILIATION... 
SHE DECIDED TO BUY HIM A FVCKING CARHART JACKET FOR XMAS WITH MY CREDIT CARD DURING OUR FAKE RECONCILE..

I forgave her for the affair.. All she needed to do was have the willingness to work this out between us.. 

Instead SHE chose to lie, the OM had nothing to do with this.. This was all her.. 

You think the OM forced her to put a picture of them hugging during the affair as a contact picture on her cell phone just so he could call it while she was home with me ? 

You think the OM forced her to answer that phone and have her walking off into the bedroom giggling and then walking out of the house to meet him to fvck him and then come back home to me and the kids 3 or 4 hours later or the next morning ?

No that was all her.. 

Trust me Allen I know how you feel.. I know I didn't have it as bad as many here, but I know I had it worse than most here.. Many here are lucky.. Spouse had affair and moved out end of story.. My Ex decided to do a death dance on me for 4 months before she decided to leave.. 

Do you women who ask me and hear the story still think sometimes I had something to do with it.. Meaning I had to be sort of bad for her to treat me that way. That she just wouldn't be so cruel on her own for no reason.. 

Fortunately for me she hasn't spoken to our oldest son for 6 months.. So he must have done something bad to her as well.

In the end.. 

OP has their own faults and their own percentage of blame.. They don't get off easy.. Anyone who knows the true story and meets them will still look at him with a crooked eye.. Men will request their wives steer clear of him or not associate with them at all. 

I know I wouldn't be happy knowing them as a couple if I knew he was the other man and I knew the story.. 

My Ex will always have to make up some sort of bullsh1t story why her kids are not with her.. 

Everyone shares a blame here.. Fvck, even I have a part to blame.. Granted, it doesn't amount to an affair and leaving me and the kids.. But we all fvcked up somewhere along the line..


----------



## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> As far as controlling or stopping them, that's a straw man, I never said I could.
> 
> But I do expect people to respect me, my family, and my marriage. If they don't, I will hold them accountable and act accordingly when they don't.
> 
> I am not simply going to let some third party interloper off the moral hook simply because there are bad people out there.


As you said, there's little to nothing you can do about some immoral selfish third party interloper that your spouse allows into his or her bed. 

They don't give a rat's ass about what you think and about whether you will attempt to hold them morally accountable.

Truth is, they aren't the problem, they're only a symptom.

It's like mopping up the water all over the living room carpet while it continues to pour in through a hole in the roof.

You're not addressing the real problem.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> There is no infatuation.. Infatuation is what teenagers have..


Infatuation can happen to anyone at any age...

Your Brain in Love: Scientific American


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> There's little to nothing you can do about some immoral selfish third party interloper that your spouse allows into his or her bed.
> 
> They don't give a rat's ass about what you think and about whether you will attempt to hold them morally accountable.
> 
> ...


This is just an assertion, not an argument.

In my opinion both the AP and the WS both are adults, both make choices, and both are accountable.

The idea of subordinating one to the other is ridiculous and makes no sense.

Why on earth is the AP subordinate? Because they aren't married? Seriously?

What if it's a double affair and both cheaters are married?

Logically then neither are then subordinates... it makes no sense.. sorry.

Think it through, both are adults, both make choices, both are accountable. The degree may vary, but this idea that one is subordinate to the other makes no logical sense when you think it through.

And yes I have read Tupy. You do'nt need to quote her, though you misquoted her.

Infidelity is not a marital issue, it's an individual issue the cheaters have and share together.

This is a whole other argument actually and I should open another thread for it.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

This is not rocket science is it

Affair Partner is a responsible adult and understands the consequences of adultery 

Both make choices 

For me my wayward spouse is 100% to blame for all of it as it is ultimately her choice to engage to pull in any other man - to go outside of the marriage. However she needs a willing partner and whoever that is (and it could be anyone who wants to take up a desperate wayward spouse) they are then making their choice which is to go in and help destroy a marriage family etc etc so they are culpable and accountable as well

But lets face it if our wives weren't looking there would be nothing to discuss in any of this would there?


----------



## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> In my opinion both the AP and the WS both are adults, both make choices, and both are accountable.


In an ideal world, people are "held" accountable for their actions.

Unfortunately, reality is somewhat different. 

Allen, your opinion seems to be, that if your spouse cheats on you with another guy, you think he's "accountable".

It's possible that you could "hold him accountable" by perhaps slandering him, or beating him up, or posting him on cheaterville as is often advocated here, but will it really matter in the long run? Maybe he won't care, maybe you'll be put in jail for assault, maybe he'll just move on to his next prospect and not look back. 

People get away with all sorts of stuff. Screwing other peoples spouses, stealing, murdering, raping, littering, loitering, tax evasion, kicking the family dog.. 

Lots of people break the law and are not held accountable for their actions even though we'd really like to see justice. The jail population represents a very small percentage of the population that really deserves to be there. 



Allen_A said:


> The idea of subordinating one to the other is ridiculous and makes no sense.


I agree it makes no sense. It's not a matter of controlling another person. It's a matter of being in a relationship with someone with whom you have mutual trust and respect. Once that's gone, for all practical purposes, it's over. You can go around trying to hold all 3rd parties accountable but that won't fix what's really broken. 



Allen_A said:


> What if it's a double affair and both cheaters are married?


So let the two cheaters have each other. Odds are it won't work out, and ultimately they will be accountable for their actions. 



Allen_A said:


> Infidelity is not a marital issue, it's an individual issue the cheaters have and share together.


Not sure the point of classifying infidelity but I agree that it's not a marital issue, it's a relationship issue; although I'm of the opinion that cheating occurs more in marriages than in committed exclusive relationships because it's a lot tougher to get out of a marriage. And of course, it involves the two cheaters "sharing"- their body parts.

Not sure how that matters though.

Obviously I disagree with Allen's viewpoint, which to me is akin to saying that if someone speeds down the highway at 120mph and loses control and has a headon collision with another vehicle, that the car is as much to blame as the driver.

Not sure what else can be added to this argument that hasn't been said in one way or another.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Allen_A said:


> What I do'nt get is how women in their fourties, with children and a mortage can just decide to start acting like teenagers with zero awareness that they are being used.


There's an e-book out there called "Women's Infidelity" which explains it very well. Not all women or affairs are the same, so the book does not apply to all situations. Still, it answers your question well.

Try to find it at a discount somewhere online. The author wants a steep price for the two pdf files from her website.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Headspin said:


> But lets face it if our wives weren't looking there would be nothing to discuss in any of this would there?


There would still be an OM poaching, so yes... there would be something to discuss...


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

lenzi said:


> As you said, there's little to nothing you can do about some immoral selfish third party interloper that your spouse allows into his or her bed.
> 
> They don't give a rat's ass about what you think and about whether you will attempt to hold them morally accountable.
> 
> Truth is, they aren't the problem, they're only a symptom.


I agree with the first parts, but disagree that they are not a problem. OM/OW are indeed part of the problem, but not the whole problem. OM/OW are knowingly engaging in harmful behavior.

If a friend said he wanted to commit suicide by jumping off a bridge, it would be wrong to drive him out to the bridge!


----------



## confusedFather (Jul 15, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Infatuation can happen to anyone at any age...
> 
> Your Brain in Love: Scientific American


Sure it can happen at any age but usually only the young and dumb act upon it. By the time you're past the mid twenties you should be emotionally developed enough to resist those feelings. Some simply choose not to ignore them.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Not sure the point of classifying infidelity but I agree that it's not a marital issue, it's a relationship issue; although I'm of the opinion that cheating occurs more in marriages than in committed exclusive relationships because it's a lot tougher to get out of a marriage.


Not my point at all... my point is infidelty is not a marital or a relatioship issue, it's an issue that belongs to the cheater alone, like alcoholism or drug addiction.

If your souse has a drinking problem that's their problem, that's not a problem of the marriage itself.

You don't blame a marriage for someone choosing to drink to excess. Nor to you blame a marriage for someone choosing to step out of it.

Marital issues are issues of how people behave towards one another directly. How spouses choose to behave when the other's back is turned isn't the other spouses fault or the marriages' fault.

If we argue too much, neglect each others needs, or don't pick up after ourselves those are issues within the relationship.

Infidelity is a destructive individually chosen coping strategy that toxifies a household.

You don't blame that on a marriage, no matter how many people try to do so.. that's crap.



lenzi said:


> Obviously I disagree with Allen's viewpoint, which to me is akin to saying that if someone speeds down the highway at 120mph and loses control and has a headon collision with another vehicle, that the car is as much to blame as the driver.


Not a fair analogy, cars are inanimate objects.

Affair partners, interlopers are not mindless automatons, they are human beings that make choices just as much as the wayward spouse. In many cases the interloping party is married too.

Most people on this thread do seem to agree that AP aren't mindless automatons, naive instruments of your spouse's evil plan and equally make destructive choices. There are a few that do seem to cling to this idea sad to say...


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> There would still be an OM poaching, so yes... there would be something to discuss...


Well er... no 

You say "when the wayward gives the green light" 
If he/she doesn't then there's nothing to talk about - there is no affair partner - poaching or otherwise 

No affair partner is innocent but no green light from wayward = no affair partner

It's quite simple really

Do I hate despise OM for taking advantage of the situation? - of course I do 

Do I blame him for it 

Actually no I don't.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Do I hate despise OM for taking advantage of the situation? - of course I do
> 
> Do I blame him for it
> 
> Actually no I don't.


What's the point of hating him then? If he's not accountable in any way, then your hate is misplaced. He is just some mindless dupe, an automaton that was used and exploited.

Poor guy.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

confusedFather said:


> Sure it can happen at any age but usually only the young and dumb act upon it. By the time you're past the mid twenties you should be emotionally developed enough to resist those feelings. Some simply choose not to ignore them.


Well, if people were emotionally developed enough to resist we wouldn't need these forums.

Yes, I agree ultimately these are choices. Choices both spouse and interloper make in secret.


----------



## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Not my point at all... my point is infidelty is not a marital or a relatioship issue, it's an issue that belongs to the cheater alone, like alcoholism or drug addiction.


The cheating is an issue that must be addressed and dealt with by both relationship partners. 



Allen_A said:


> If your souse has a drinking problem that's their problem, that's not a problem of the marriage itself.


True.



Allen_A said:


> You don't blame a marriage for someone choosing to drink to excess. Nor to you blame a marriage for someone choosing to step out of it.


You use the term marriage as if it's some sort of entity. It's not the "marriage's fault". Right, it's not. All of these problems can exist whether it's a marriage or a committed relationship. And yes, I think you certainly CAN blame problems within a relationship for one person choosing to step out of it.



Allen_A said:


> Marital issues are issues of how people behave towards one another directly. How spouses choose to behave when the other's back is turned isn't the other spouses fault or the marriages' fault.


Sometimes people don't share with their spouse because there's a communication breakdown. That can be the fault of both parties not just one. And again, I agree it's not "the marriage's fault".



Allen_A said:


> Not a fair analogy, cars are inanimate objects.
> 
> Affair partners, interlopers are not mindless automatons, they are human beings that make choices just as much as the wayward spouse.


Ok I've made better analogies. Of course the AP is making a choice to bone your spouse, "if" they knew you were married and still "together".

Lots of times they don't know, and like I've said ad nauseum, if the OM/OW is led to believe the marriage is over for all practical purposes, I say they've got the green light to do as they please if they're given the ok by the spouse (or partner) in question. If they are fully aware that they are contributing to the breakup of an intact marriage, and/or the betrayed partner is being totally deceived, and they just don't care, well then sure they're being selfish, and irresponsible, and whatever else you care to label them, but so what? Your best interests are of no concern to them and like I said I doubt you'll ever be able to effectively hold them accountable for anything. 

Rinse and repeat


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> And yes, I think you certainly CAN blame problems within a relationship for one person choosing to step out of it.


And there aren't many books or experts that would agree with you on that point.

If it's gambling, drugs, or a bottle or vodka it's the spouse's problem, but if it's an affair it's the couples problem? What the heck is that?

If your spouse decides to drink to excess that's their problem, if they can't keep their relationships with others in check, that's their problem and they need to work to correct that.

I am not suggesting the spouse can't be supportive or influential, but the person with the problem must own it and commit to working on their problem.

Blaming the couple or the betrayed spouse for an affair makes no sense. Infidelity is an illegitimate response to what may very well have been legitimate complaints about a marriage.

Making the choice to take illegitimate actions is owned by the people that make those choices.. the wayward spouse and the AP.



lenzi said:


> Ok I've made better analogies. Of course the AP is making a choice to bone your spouse, "if" they knew you were married and still "together".


And many do know, or don't know at first, then find out and continue anyways.

The "dupes" I would be putting in another category.



lenzi said:


> Lots of times they don't know, and like I've said ad nauseum, if the OM/OW is led to believe the marriage is over for all practical purposes, I say they've got the green light to do as they please if they're given the ok by the spouse (or partner) in question.



And I have said "ad nauseum" that people dating married persons need to fact check. When you meet a married person who claims to be getting a divorce there is an extreemely high risk that they aren't telling you the whole truth.

If you don't fact check properly, and choose to get into a relationship with them you are equally accountable for the affair at that point.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Truth is, they aren't the problem, they're only a symptom.


Even Shirley Glass says in her book that 56% of married men have affairs while they characterized their marriages as "happy".

So, how on earth can you hold the betrayed spouse accountable?

Sorry, this is the problem of the two-timing spouse and the interloper that chooses to enter the marriage in secret to covertly toxify it.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> What's the point of hating him then? If he's not accountable in any way, then your hate is misplaced. He is just some mindless dupe, an automaton that was used and exploited.
> 
> Poor guy.


Yep poor guy exploited yep used of course 

But seriously he was a willing and motivated party so of course he's guilty as well but not in quite so deep a degree as my wife


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Yep poor guy exploited yep used of course
> 
> But seriously he was a willing and motivated party so of course he's guilty as well but not in quite so deep a degree as my wife


That sounds more appropriate.

Now you have to decide to what degree. And you ought to hate him to a matching level to that.


----------



## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen I have nothing else to add at this point. Every time I read one of your posts and start to formulate a reply I realize I've already said the same thing at least twice. 

Good luck holding those wayward spouses and their affair partners accountable for ruining what otherwise would have been a happy non toxic marriage.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Allen I have nothing else to add at this point. Every time I read one of your posts and start to formulate a reply I realize I've already said the same thing at least twice.
> 
> Good luck holding those wayward spouses and their affair partners accountable for ruining what otherwise would have been a happy non toxic marriage.


Your challenge is how to hold a third party accountable is noteworthy, but is not the subject of the thread.

What's the point in discussing how to hold the AP accountable if many people argue they aren't accountable to begin with?

I am merely hoping at this point to find out if most people here are in agreement that the AP is accountable.

Most appear to support the idea that the AP is accountable as a grown choice-making adult, not some mindless automaton. There are a few stragglers, but that's to be expected.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> I am merely hoping at this point to find out if most people here are in agreement that the AP is accountable.


How can someone be accountable if there's no practical way to hold them accountable?

I think what you're really saying, is that is the other party to blame, and if so how much are they to blame. 

I've already made it clear where I stand on the matter of blaming the other party. They're not the problem. If it wasn't them it would have been someone else. 

Besides, what does it matter whose to blame?

Saying the cheater is 72% guilty and the AP is 28% guilty or 50/50 or whatever doesn't get you any closer to fixing anything.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

The AP is almost a moot subject. His/her dance with a W/S is a completely consensual act...ought to be a given...regardless of which one will later get the blame of seducer. The sole job of the AP is to get the H.E. double-hockey sticks out of the way...and for his/her own BS to address and hold acountable...the AP is acountable to HIS spouse. Thus each WS is accountable to his/her own BS...for all their b.s.!
Once communication has been cut...and WS and AP severe all chances of starting it up again. It is not the requirement of party A to seek to hold party B accountable if they have all gone back to their respective corners...and we shouldn't CARE at this point. The only way in which you do need to hold them accountable is if a pregnancy is involved, if there were any laws were broken, or property damage needs restitution. Otherwise the AP and all his/her garbage needs to be passed over for what needs to be addressed in the busted marriage...'cos trust me...if all your WS does is bleat and cry how "He seduced me, it wasn't my fault!" is bogus!!! And talking about the AP will only take the attention from what the BS needs to be working on.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> How can someone be accountable if there's no practical way to hold them accountable?
> 
> I think what you're really saying, is that is the other party to blame, and if so how much are they to blame.
> 
> ...


You keep introducing different topics into the thread rather than simply addressing the topic at large. That not an argument, it's smoke and mirrors.

Accountable, blame? Semantics...

Now you want to introduce who is the problem?

More semantics.

Now you want to discuss how to get closer to fixing anything?

More topic shifting...


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> I've already made it clear where I stand on the matter of blaming the other party. They're not the problem. If it wasn't them it would have been someone else.


So, by your logic, if someone kidnaps my kid, i just let the kidnapper off the hook because if it wasn't them, it would have been someone else?

Ya, tell that to parents and see how well that flies...


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> So, by your logic, if someone kidnaps my kid, i just let the kidnapper off the hook because if it wasn't them, it would have been someone else?
> 
> Ya, tell that to parents and see how well that flies...


And you think I'm the one with bad analogies?

Kidnapping is a crime. It places the victim- an innocent person- in danger - someone who did nothing to contribute to the kidnapping- and if the criminal is not punished the odds are they'll do it again.

An affair partner is not breaking the law, at least not in most jurisdictions. The courts and the police don't care. They will not be punished if caught. At least, not by the authorities. The wayward partner- the "victim" is even more guilty than the perpetrator. 

There's really nothing you can do to stop them. Unless you resort to some sort of vigilante justice, which could earn you a trip to the slammer. 

Putting them on cheaterville, threatening them to stay away from your spouse, locking your wayward spouse in the attic, all those things may be "slightly" effective in removing the symptoms but they don't address the real problem which is the wayward partner who will never really be held accountable unless they become remorseful and truly want to fix things. 

Should the other man or woman be accountable as per the question and topic of your thread? Yes, in some situations when they are fully aware that they are contributing to the breakup of a marriage, then sure. In an ideal world. But it aint never gonna happen unless you take the law into your own hands, and I'm sure that some do. But it's not really a practical solution to the problem.


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## Lilly_daddy (Jul 4, 2009)

It always takes two IMO. How can someone possibly justify an EA/PA by telling their spouse that the OM/OW tempted them or possibly had a weak moment. It's a total cop-out for the Incident to even occur in the first place, like telling someone "I was drunk at the time" as an excuse to behave a certain way. Justification at it's finest by masking it as a mistake or lapse in judgment.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> it makes you an accomplice...


Yes, an accomplice. If you mess with someone else's spouse, you are messing with someone else's life. You mess with someone else's spouse at your own risk. Whether or not you agree with revenge, whether or not you believe revenge is right or wrong, you know that the possibility of revenge is real.

Being posted on cheaterville, being outed to your own spouse, being outed at your place of employment for unauthorized use of work equipment to carry on the affair, even having the betrayed spouse attack you physically - if you are the affair partner, you know these are real possibilities - either that or you are naïve or have lived a sheltered life.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Kidnapping is a crime.


Alienation of affection is also against the law in some states in the USA. Both are against the law depending on your location.



lenzi said:


> It places an innocent person in danger - someone who did nothing to contribute to the kidnapping- and if the criminal is not punished the odds are they'll do it again.


And infidelity does not put innocent persons in danger?

Friends, family, and spouses all made uncomfortable by two people who chose to create toxicity in secret and spread it throughout a household.

And people on this forum have said time and time again that if there are no consequences for cheaters they too will do it again too.

You are just arguing my case for me here... lol



lenzi said:


> An affair partner is not breaking the law, at least not in most jurisdictions. The courts and the police don't care. They will not be punished if caught. At least, not by the authorities.


An affair partner is indeed violating the law of alienation of affection. And the fact that police and courts "dont' care" or dont' "punish" has zero bearing on the merit of the law itself.

You are assuming the merit of the law is parallel with how much respect their is for enforcing it.. which is rather silly.

Respect comes first, and then people enforce it... It does not work the other way around. Someone has to start giving a damn first.



lenzi said:


> There's really nothing you can do to stop them. Unless you resort to some sort of vigilante justice, which could earn you a trip to the slammer.


Again you are changing the topic.

You don't seem to get that these are two separate topics of discussion :

a. the accountability of AP for an infidelity in a marriage
b. the likelihood of enforcing AP's to respect marriage

These are completely separate topics. I am only addressing the first here.



lenzi said:


> Putting them on cheaterville, threatening them to stay away from your spouse, locking your wayward spouse in the attic, all those things may be "slightly" effective in removing the symptoms but they don't address the real problem which is the wayward partner who will never really be held accountable.


That is a separate topic as well.

You seem to just want to dismiss discussions and change the topic rather than address the one that's posted in the thread.



lenzi said:


> Should they be accountable as per the question and topic of your thread? Yes, in some situations when they are fully aware that they are contributing to the breakup of a marriage, then sure


Finally



lenzi said:


> In an ideal world. But it aint never gonna happen unless you take the law into your own hands, and I'm sure that some do. But it's not really a practical solution to the problem.


And more topic shifting..


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I am in a fog?
> 
> No, I don't think so. I think infatuation can make people do stupid things they sometimes regret.
> 
> Sometimes they don't.


The underlying vibe I'm getting from this entire thread seems to be that someone's innocent spouse (not going to assume yours) was unwittingly seduced into cheating on her husband by an evil sharp-tongued OM and therefore he should be held mostly accountable. That the poor WS never would of done it but she was too overpowered by her own infatuation and lust for this specific OM to resist...


That's garbage. Here's the truth:

1) If it wasn't this OM it would of been someone else. There was nothing unique or special about him. He was just the first opportunity to come along that she was attracted to.

2) The wife in the above fairly tale wanted to cheat because she's a selfish person and was all to eager to do it. She pursued the OM just as much as he pursued her. She got horny with all his sweet talking and wanted to get f***ed. 

3) The BS was never to blame. The WS could of left the BS if it was SO bad. Almost everyone has marital problems. Cheater's always this as an excuse because it's easies their guilt.

4) The WS doesn't love her BS because you don't hurt people you love. Furthermore in almost all cases they only regret getting caught. They don't regret cheating because if they had any guilt they wouldn't of done it in the first place.


If anyone wants to reconcile with their spouse more power to them. As long as you can accept the following:

1) You can NEVER fully trust that person again. 

2) You meant absolutely nothing to the WS during the affair. They would of thrown you under a bus literally if they could to save their ass.

3) Your WS stopped loving you at best or never really loved you at worst. 

4) You have to accept they could do it again. In fact, once you cheat it's a very smooth transition into a serial cheater. 


If your trying to reconcile under some ridiculous notion that the WS was a victim who was poached by the OM well then I'm sorry you bought into the WS's lies yet again. Just THINK about the amount of evil a WS has to have to look into a BS's eyes, tell him she loves him, then go out and have pornstar sex with another man. 

No one is "tricked" or "seduced" into an affair. To believe otherwise is pure fantasy. They WANTED to do it. Period. BS be damned.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> Yes, an accomplice. If you mess with someone else's spouse, you are messing with someone else's life. You mess with someone else's spouse at your own risk. Whether or not you agree with revenge, whether or not you believe revenge is right or wrong, you know that the possibility of revenge is real.
> 
> Being posted on cheaterville, being outed to your own spouse, being outed at your place of employment for unauthorized use of work equipment to carry on the affair, even having the betrayed spouse attack you physically - if you are the affair partner, you know these are real possibilities - either that or you are naïve or have lived a sheltered life.


I think most AP are naive during the affair and don't expect all that to happen until it does indeed happen.

Some are more risk aware, but i think a lot of interlopers are too excited, selfish, and inconsiderate to think they will get caught or there will be any consequences... not unlike how most criminals think.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> The underlying vibe I'm getting from this entire thread seems to be that someone's innocent spouse (not going to assume yours) was unwittingly seduced into cheating on her husband by an evil sharp-tongued OM and therefore he should be held mostly accountable. That the poor WS never would of done it but she was too overpowered by her own infatuation and lust for this specific OM to resist...
> 
> 
> That's garbage. Here's the truth:
> ...


The main problem is we are discussing generic hypotheticals rather than a specific case which is why I made the question an absolute.

A lot of replies are well managed and keep on point. Some get bogged down into details or shift the topic instead.

Your post again is assuming a specific case in point and addressing that alone as if it applies to all cases.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> It seems like there is some defense of the AP here.


Ya think?

I am pretty shocked at how many people want to vilify their spouse and let the OP off the hook.

Most don't, but far too many just make excuses for the OP by my read thus far...

Shocked.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I joined in because I believe the AP needs to be held accountable. Some of the blame is on the AP
> 
> ... He does need to be held accountable. All AP's need held accountable.
> 
> ...


I just read other threads and specific posts were alluding to the AP having no accountability.. some people were vilifying their spouses left and right... so I just thought I'd ask straight out...

A solution would be nice, but that's getting ahead of things.. I really am not interesting in this thread becoming a discussion for solutions.. I wanted to read how many were actually acvocating holding the AP accountable to begin with...

And it looks like most do... not enough, but most.

And I am actually shocked at how some posters just let he AP off scott free...that just floors me.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

lenzi said:


> Kidnapping is a crime. It places the victim- an innocent person- in danger - someone who did nothing to contribute to the kidnapping- and if the criminal is not punished the odds are they'll do it again.


AIDS, Hepatitis, HPV (the virus which causes cervical cancer), Herpes, Trichomoniasis. All of these diseases can be passed onto an unsuspecting spouse. The carrier can have no symptoms at all.

Children can be exposed to some of these diseases by an infected parent.

Families break up, putting children at a higher risk of bad outcomes as adults.

Family dissolution can dramatically affect the financial situation for the children, harming their futures.

Any one of the adults can become homicidal, suicidal, depressed, or otherwise create a hostile environment at home.

The OM/OW can indeed be placing a lot of people in danger by participating in an affair.



lenzi said:


> An affair partner is not breaking the law, at least not in most jurisdictions. The courts and the police don't care. They will not be punished if caught. At least, not by the authorities. The wayward partner- the "victim" is even more guilty than the perpetrator.


Whether or not something is against the law has no relevance to moral right or wrong. Being able to prosecute in court has nothing to do with holding someone morally responsible.

Of course the WS is more guilty than the AP. The AP is still a knowing accomplice to events which harm non-consenting people, so the AP does deserve some blame and some consequences.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Ya think?
> 
> I am pretty shocked at how many people want to vilify their spouse and let the OP off the hook.
> 
> ...



So what if there were two OMs? or five? or twelve? How many do you blame before you take a long hard look at your spouse? 

No one here is saying the AP is not accountable. You should do everything in your power to expose the AP to make sure he gets his.

But as far as I'm concerned, the buck stops with my spouse. She's the gatekeeper of the marriage and she's the one who let the burglar in to steal my trust away. She's the betrayor, he's just the guy she betrayed me with. They are both scum but I hold her to a higher standard because she's supposed to be my partner.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Ultimately, the WS must be held accountable. You can't do much to hold them accountable, though. It's not something physical that needs done. I don't think you are getting the point. It's about making it easier to let go of any unnecessary personal blame. There is definitely blame to go all around.


Not worried about what can be done right now.



2ntnuf said:


> Many times, folks like to say it's the BS's fault for the affair because they weren't meeting some needs or listening or some excuse. Those are valid reasons that the marriage was crap.


Yes, this is the slipperly slope you end up on when you put all the blame on the wayward.. they eventually point at the betrayed spouse to protect themselves.



2ntnuf said:


> They are not valid reasons to have an affair. That decision was the WS's.


And the AP's.. they both make that decision together.



2ntnuf said:


> The WS could not have the PA if there was not at least one other person involved. So, ultimately, who's fault is the affair? It's the fault of the two involved.


Yes, thank you.



2ntnuf said:


> Somehow, everyone forgets that there are other options to getting out of, over, around, under, or through a bad situation, besides an affair. This only happens when the word accountability rears it's, "ugly", head.


Someone has to pay the bill for the mess eventually. And yes, a lot of people assume infidelity is a natural reaction or causally connected response to marital problems rather than a choice.

The AP is not some mindless automaton.

The thing is, yes your spouse had an affair with AP, but how many people do you think turned your spouse down?

Has anyone ever asked their spouse that? Has anyone ever questioned that?

My point is eventually the AP says "yes" and then things happen. Mutually consenting betrayal by two willing people making a choice.

I actually find it an interesting test... since most waywards will not point the finger at the AP. Some do, most don't.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Thor said:


> AIDS, Hepatitis, HPV (the virus which causes cervical cancer), Herpes, Trichomoniasis. All of these diseases can be passed onto an unsuspecting spouse. The carrier can have no symptoms at all.
> 
> Children can be exposed to some of these diseases by an infected parent.
> 
> ...


All excellent points for the shared accountability argument, thank you. :iagree:


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

If the AP knows the person is married, of COURSE they bear some responsibility!

Let's put it this way. Your spouse leaves your house unlocked, with a sign that says "Everything free - help yourself". YOU have NO CLUE they have done this, and most certainly did NOT give permission for your things to be taken. Regardless of the fact that your spouse "gave" permission, anyone who takes your stuff will be regarded as a thief. Period. Now, there might be those who did not know and are honestly remorseful and give you back your stuff, in which case, there is no criminal act. But those who KNEW the stuff was not your spouses to give away, and not only knew but when confronted DID NOT RETURN IT can be prosecuted for theft! The courts won't say "Oh, well, you didn't know. You can keep the stuff." The courts WILL hold that person responsible for doing the right thing.

Maybe my analogy is crappy, but I think it holds true. In an affair, your WS opens the door for some a-hole to come on in. 

JUST BECAUSE THE DOOR IS OPEN DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO WALK INTO IT!

When I see a car running with keys in it, do I then say to myself "Hey, they just left this car unlocked and running! Clearly, they mean for me to take it, otherwise they would lock their car and make sure it was secure, right?" 

Um, NO! THAT would be the type of excuse/justification an AP would use! 

I am in NO way making excuses for my WH. Not. At. All. But these b!tches KNEW he was married with a kid. In fact (and this makes me want to vomit) OW1, in her vigorous denials, was telling me how she would "never do such a thing" and that she was the one who picked out the office gift for my newborn baby. (Needless to say it's sitting in the garage gathering dust - I really should just take a hammer to it and throw it away, but not before sending her a pic of it to say "Thanks".) OW2 had the audacity to feign concern about the well being of my child when I busted them. Yeah, sure, b!tch! I'm sure you reeeeeallly give a crap about my kid. Just because you have 2 failed marriages, doesn't mean it's your duty to be party to the destruction of someone else's.

Sorry, no passes for the knowing AP. None.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

ScorchedEarth said:


> When I see a car running with keys in it, do I then say to myself "Hey, they just left this car unlocked and running! Clearly, they mean for me to take it, otherwise they would lock their car and make sure it was secure, right?"


..."and if I don't take it someone else will, so it might as well be me!"


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

ScorchedEarth said:


> If the AP knows the person is married, of COURSE they bear some responsibility!
> 
> Let's put it this way. Your spouse leaves your house unlocked, with a sign that says "Everything free - help yourself". YOU have NO CLUE they have done this, and most certainly did NOT give permission for your things to be taken. Regardless of the fact that your spouse "gave" permission, anyone who takes your stuff will be regarded as a thief. Period. Now, there might be those who did not know and are honestly remorseful and give you back your stuff, in which case, there is no criminal act. But those who KNEW the stuff was not your spouses to give away, and not only knew but when confronted DID NOT RETURN IT can be prosecuted for theft! The courts won't say "Oh, well, you didn't know. You can keep the stuff." The courts WILL hold that person responsible for doing the right thing.
> 
> ...


uuurgh why I ask?

In comes Allen_A dissects your post into 20 bits and basically tries to present some intellectual spurious arguments about AP accountability or not !?

So your point A_A is what ? What is it ? because it seems no matter what anybody's view on this you will counter it come what may! Are you going to endlessly analyze every dot and i in every counter posting ?

Ultimately as we ALL know both WS and OM are accountable - only a fool would argue otherwise. You can argue till kingdom come about the percentages but it's clear as the nose on your face they are both in varying degrees and perspectives responsible for the infidelity. 

Whether you call it blame responsibility culpability consensual......


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Allen A---this is real simple-----BUT FOR----what your wife did you WOULD NOT BE HERE

Yes the AP---is a POS/slime/lowlife/deserve to be run over by the karma bus-----BUT ---he owes you and your kids nothing

You keep putting down the vows---but they were put there to protect THE TWO THAT TOOK THEM, the lowlife AP---had nothing to do with that

The AP does get to walk away---unless you go after them legally and you can do that---they are various lawsuits that can be brought---depending on the state you live in--

--but when all is said and done---it is your spouse that is part of the mge---and it is your spouse ---THAT IS SUPPOSED TO PROTECT THE MGE---and IT IS THE SPOUSE THAT IS SPOSE TO PROTECT THE KIDS-----the AP---whether you like it or not---gets a free pass----and IT IS YOUR SPOUSE THAT GAVE IT TO THEM!!!!!!!!!


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Not only was the door open, but your spouse told them where the the treasure is. And acted as the lookout, as well as driving the getaway car. Most cheaters are simply cheaters. And would always find someone to bang anyway. 

And you likely dont know if this was even the first time. Meaning the ap could just happen to be who they were caught with.

Many people simply must blame the ap to keep their self respect, for taking the wayward back.

I destroyed my wife's om. But it was nothing compared to what i rained down on my wife. As it should be.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Yes, I agree with that, too, Middle. I think it is an equal share of blame. It takes at least, two for the PA to take place.


Yes true. But I really can't see spending any energy on getting back at the OM/OW. I really think all the getting even should be directed at the WS. they are the party responsible for the B S humiliation.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

> Someone has to pay the bill for the mess eventually. And yes, a lot of people assume infidelity is a natural reaction or causally connected response to marital problems rather than a choice.
> 
> The AP is not some mindless automaton.
> 
> ...


What is your angle AA? Are you a BS who's having a difficult time processing the hurt and pain of infidelity? If so, I'm sorry you're going thru a mess right now. The bottom line is sure, both the WS and the AP are responsible for having an affair. It takes 2 to tango, right? But I think you are trying to put too much blame on a stranger and not on the WS. The WS gets the lions share of the blame from the BS - or that's the way it should be. While the POS OM or OW was sleeping with a married person, it's the WS that is the root of the pain of the BS. Trying to equate the AP to a thief or someone who abused your property is a silly analogy to make. It only works if your wallet has the ability to beg the thief to take it away from the "brutish" AA for being such a crappy owner. Since your property has no feelings or the ability to express itself, it can never betray you. Your spouse is not your property. Your spouse can speak for his/herself and can decide if it wants to cast you aside or not. 

It's silly for a BS to put so much effort into an AP when the real culprit of your pain is the WS who betrayed you. Would you be pulling your hair out in frustration if the AP was sleeping with someone else and not your spouse? Would you still be feeling all this rage if this OM was having an affair with someone you don't know? Of course not. Even if he's sleeping with married woman you don't know, he's still acting heinously but you wouldn't know about him and his actions - unless it was your wife that betrayed you by being with him. If your WS doesn't betray you, then the OM is nothing to you even if he slept with a bus full of nuns...


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

There's a lot of talk about 'poaching' and 'stealing' in these threads which I think is a bit dramatic.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> *I just read other threads and specific posts were alluding to the AP having no accountability*.. some people were vilifying their spouses left and right... so I just thought I'd ask straight out...


I have almost never seen the sentiment that the AP bears zero responsibility. Most BS's hate the AP or at least believe that they are a dirtbag.

The reason most people don't focus on the the AP is because the betrayal of the WS is the real source of their pain. And yes, a willing AP was a necessary condition for the betrayal, but it is the WS's willingness that burns.

And impotently raging at the AP is just kinda pointless. You can obsess about people who sleep with married people all you like. They are out there. They aren't going away. And they rarely face any real consequences for what they do. I fully support creating consequences if you can: exposing to AP's spouse, exposing to HR, exposing to mutual friends, etc. But the sad truth is that the majority of the time - at least based upon TAM threads - the AP suffers little to no consequences. 

It is your spouse who will determine whether your life is damaged by one of these people. If you want to protect yourself from these people, here are my suggestions:

1.	Choose your spouse wisely. 
2.	Establish and maintain boundaries from the start. 
3.	Dump a cheater the first time and don't look back.

And yes, I am completely anti-R. I am from the "fool me once..." school. I don't fault other people for choosing R, but I do question the validity of R when the only way you can manage it is by placing a disproportionate amount of blame on the AP. You need to fully acknowledge that your spouse is someone who was willing to risk your marriage for sex with someone else. They probably lied to this person about you and about the horrible state of your marriage. They probably told you they loved you over the phone in front of this person and then chuckled about it after they hung up. This is what the person you married is capable of. If you don't deal with that reality and instead focus on the AP... Well, good luck with that.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

illwill said:


> Many people simply must blame the ap to keep their self respect, for taking the wayward back.


This pretty much sums up this entire thread.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

You want to rationalize that your little sweetums is a great gal, and hey, even if she took off her ring and told them she was single it is still totally their fault for not asking for ID and then running a background check, am I right?

If my wife cheated on me I would face the fact that I had married trash and dump her. If my wife tried to cheat on me, but all possible AP's turned her down I would still face the fact that I married trash and dump her. The AP is, in many ways, irrelevant to the betrayal itself.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Does, would, or should the attitude and outcomes change towards the AP if the BS was also in a relationship (as a friendship or family connection are also relationships, as relationships are not defined by romantic connections solely) with the AP? It seems that most are predicated on the fact that the BS is a stranger to the AP and therefor the AP should just be overlooked as "if not them then someone else." Does anything change when the AP "WAS" a good friend to the BS prior to the A?

I also hate the ideal that "if not them then someone else" theory. Then to say that it is the marriages fault as a reason the WS "stepped out". If that is so true then we might as well say it is the BS's fault because they had a hand in this as well. If they had acted differently in the marriage then it wouldn't have happened, so why hold the WS accountable as "if not this particular person that you married and trusted, it would have been a different person you married and trusted" as you were part of the problem and would have had the same issues with anyone, right? I know that sounds ridiculous, but to me it sounds just as ridiculous that the WS just happened to perchance hook up with this person and that they were already out there trolling for someone new (granted that does happen in some cases, but most cases are where the AP was "supposedly" giving the WS something they felt they were missing at the time and woo'd them for quite sometime prior to the A, and not that they were just out trolling for a good lay).

I also find it interesting about the counter claims being that society has eased the laws regarding this, so it seems to be considered a victimless offense and not a crime. Would the prevailing thoughts be changed/ different if we were still enforcing the laws that existed before, considering the act of infidelity a crime, and prosecuting for these offenses still today?

I feel that the AP is just as much to blame as the WS, and this should be the norm, just as by others claims I am considered responsible for the issues in my marriage (whether told/ aware of them or not, it is expected I should be held accountable to a degree) and the same for the insurance company holding me responsible for damage to my car when I I have parked it legally and am not around (the insurance company says that since I own it, I am a percentage responsible). This should hold true for the AP.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> You want to rationalize that your little sweetums is a great gal, and hey, even if she took off her ring and told them she was single it is still totally their fault for not asking for ID and then running a background check, am I right?
> 
> If my wife cheated on me I would face the fact that I had married trash and dump her. If my wife tried to cheat on me, but all possible AP's turned her down I would still face the fact that I married trash and dump her. The AP is, in many ways, irrelevant to the betrayal itself.


I don't think this is at all true. I think the questions posed is why some feel that the AP is not responsible in any way. That your poor sweetum is solely the one to blame here. The OP never has insinuated or stated that the WS is not to blame, just that the blame is to be shared. Some feel that it is "if not them then someone else" sums it up, like it seems you are saying here as well.


----------



## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> I don't think this is at all true. I think the questions posed is why some feel that the AP is not responsible in any way.


Can you find a single poster in this thread who claims that an AP who knowingly sleeps with a married person is not responsible for their choice. Please, just link that post - otherwise I am calling strawman.

The "if not that AP, then someone else" argument isn't meant to exonerate the AP. It really has nothing to do with the AP's relative level of guilt - which is a silly concept anyway. It is meant to focus attention on the WS's actions because that is what really matters.

You *must* deal with the reality of your WS's behavior. You must acknowledge what they did and make decisions regarding R or D. This is true if the AP is your best friend. It is true if the AP is a random dude from another country your wife met and seduced at a hotel bar while not wearing her ring. It is true if the AP totally rejected her advances and came straight to you to inform you that she was hitting on him.

There will always be potential AP's out there. You can focus on them if you choose. I even fully support creating consequences when possible. However, what is going to drive your pain is that your spouse wanted it to happen and probably did all sorts of things to conceal and facilitate it. And what is going to determine whether you go through this again - should you decide to R - is your WS's behavior in the future, not how you handle the AP.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

well, there are AP that are (were) the best friend of the BS and/or WS.

That is double betrayal and it really sucks.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> This is so true and would cause much less damage to the BS and family. Do you not agree? It is much easier to reconcile, for a man, if the WS was only in an EA.


I don't reconcile. I move on. So, to me, no, it would make no difference. That is the point I was making. It is what cheating reveals about the character of my spouse that is damning to the relationship for me. 

Now, obviously I think an EA is easier on some levels because there is no concern regagrding STD's, pregnancy, etc. I can also acknowledge that for some it would be easier to deal with psychologically, but I take this with a grain of salt. God knows how many are laboring in R under the belief that it was just an EA. Based upon how many we see in TAM who believe they are only dealing with an EA only to find the truth out later... Well, let us just say that I am a man of little faith and when I find one lie I just assume there are more awaiting me.

That is why I just wash my hands of the whole sad game.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

amr1977 said:


> Now, obviously I think an EA is easier on some levels


For women, I think an EA can be worse than just a PA because if a woman goes PA, it is very possible she has fallen in love. And that, in the heart, is way worse than just some quick sex.

My 2 cents.

And if it's an EA & PA = molotov c0cktail.

Now for the thread question: Is the AP innocent? IMO, no. Just as the person who was married isn't. It was their marriage after all they betrayed. The AP assisted with the betrayal (well, if they were aware of it). Some APs aren't aware that the MM or MW is married at all.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> In my mind, 50% of the blame for a bad marriage can be placed on the BS. 50% of the affair can be blamed on the WS and 50% on the AP.


How about this: 

As adults, we are each 100% responsible for our own actions and decisions. This standard works really well and simplifies everything. Knowingly bang a married person? 100% responsible for doing so. Cheat on your spouse? 100% responsible.

Seriously, my spouse cheated, but she was only 50% responsible... Lolz.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> How about this:
> 
> As adults, we are each 100% responsible for our own actions and decisions. This standard works really well and simplifies everything. Knowingly bang a married person? 100% responsible for doing so. Cheat on your spouse? 100% responsible.
> 
> Seriously, my spouse cheated, but she was only 50% responsible... Lolz.


..and the BS should only take 20% blame for the relationship issues, because obviously the person that cheated had bigger issues that were unknown to the BS due to the deception, so I say 80% WS 20% BS for the blame pie for the relationship issues leading up to the affair also.. If the BS was a wife beater or substance abuser, then I'll go 70% 30%...


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> This is so true and would cause much less damage to the BS and family. Do you not agree? It is much easier to reconcile, for a man, if the WS was only in an EA.
> 
> On the other hand, it seems an EA is much more difficult for many, if not all women. This is from what I have read here from women's posts.
> 
> *I think, we must all take into account, the culpability of the AP. What do we do about that? I don't know*.


but similar to my earlier post and those of others, my point is that the AP's culpability is not something the BS should worry about or obsess over. BS already has a full plate of worries regarding what to do about their WS. The BS cannot afford to take their "eye off the ball" IMO, otherwise it will be too easy to not ask themslves the hard questions about just what kind of person they are married to.

and BTW, especially regarding cheating wives, all the talk and analysis surrounding guys who are "players" - i.e. believing how they can suppossedly charm the free will out of perfectly decent women. That's another myth the BH might try to buy into. but it is rubbish IMO. Even a _good looking_ married woman has little trouble deflecting 'overtures' of most any type, whether these crop up at work or elsewhere - IF she is committed to her husband and marriage.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

AMR said:


> Can you find a single poster in this thread who claims that an AP who knowingly sleeps with a married person is not responsible for their choice. Please, just link that post - otherwise I am calling straw man.


Here you go, as this reads exactly that way to me (as what can you add to 100% to make 100%, you got it 0%, which equates to no responsibility):



Headspin said:


> This is not rocket science is it
> 
> Affair Partner is a responsible adult and understands the consequences of adultery
> 
> ...


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> Here you go, as this reads exactly that way to me (as what can you add to 100% to make 100%, you got it 0%, which equates to no responsibility):


From the text you quoted:

However she needs a willing partner and whoever that is (and it could be anyone who wants to take up a desperate wayward spouse) they are then making their choice which is to go in and help destroy a marriage family etc etc* so they are culpable and accountable as well*

For many of us the betrayal of our spouse is such an enormity that the AP's willingness to take the bait is simply insignificant by comparison.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> From the text you quoted:
> For many of us the betrayal of our spouse is such an enormity that the AP's willingness to take the bait is simply insignificant by comparison.


The thread's question is one of accountability though, not the source of the betrayed's pain.

And more to the point... in what world is pain used to assess accountability in the first place. That ought to be a careful assessment of the degree of damage that's done.

A person is accountable for offenses to the degree they have done damage aren't they?

Trust is damaged, respect is damaged, years of work to build a home is damaged.

All of that is both parties doing. These offenses may be more upsetting coming from your spouse, but the end result is the same either way.

If someone burns my home down and i lose 500k worth of goods it really doesn't matter if my spouse did that or if a perfect stranger did it.. that's still 500K worth of goods that need repaired or restored.

I don't understand why people are attributing pain as the decision making strategy here for how accountable the affair partner is in these messes.

This damage is created by both parties.

How much more damage does the spouse actually do than the affair partner?

Not much really to my mind. They are both choosing to do this.

The disrespect, distrust, anxiety, and years of investment is lost due to the choices they both made.

When someone robs a bank, we don't hold them accountable based on how upsetting that is to the bank manager.

But more to the point.. where on earth did anyone say it was the spouse that put out the "bait?" We are making a lot of assumptions about a hypothetical here.

The fact is these two cheaters (and I consider both of them cheaters, not just the married one) are leaving bait for each other when they flirt and play well beyond boundaries.

They tease and entice each other!

So, lets not do this "the AP just took the bait" thing.. they both do it.

The idea that one person is just some mindless automaton following the other around like a puppy does not work for grown adults. Sorry.

These are both adults and they both know better than to behave the way they choose to behave.

That's it. Poking around to figure out what hurts us more, or who baited who?

Seriously? This just sounds like some silly childs game of "who started it.."

It doesn't matter who started it - *neither of them finished it when it was started, so they both own it*.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Both the Married and the AP are accountable (if the AP is aware the Married is in fact, married).


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> The thread's question is one of accountability though, not the source of the betrayed's pain.


Because people respond emotionally rather than intellectually for the most part. In cases where the AP is a stranger to the BS - anger devoted to the AP is often a way to displace it from the WW in order to lessen the pain involved in reconciliation. If you think people making these assessments are doing so rationally, well, no, just no...

For myself, I would feel the exact same irreparable damage had been done to my relationship if my spouse attempted an affair and was turned down by the AP. No difference to me whatsoever. I honestly would not feel that I was betrayed by an AP unless I considered them a friend.



Allen_A said:


> If someone burns my home down and i lose 500k worth of goods it really doesn't matter if my spouse did that or if a perfect stranger did it.. that's still 500K worth of goods that need repaired or restored.


I very much doubt this is the case. If someone who you love and ostensibly loves you burns down your home it should cause a vastly different sort of trauma than having your home burned down by an unknown arsonist. If it is does not you may suffer from some form of psychopathology.

That the financial consequences are the same is of little relevance.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> You fight to hard to minimize and justify the AP's behavior. Let them deal with their guilt and betrayal.


I don't see myself minimizing anything. An AP who knowingly sleeps with a married person is a dirtbag IMO and a BS is fully justified in creating consequences for them. This has been my position throughout the thread; I have never once defended an AP's behavior.

Since I have dealt with this in a concrete sense, let me clarify. My ex-wife cheated with a co-worker. She told me and I divorced her. I didn't ask about the AP because I didn't care. I didn't care who pursued. I didn't care how it started, how it progressed, how many times they had sex or in what positions. These things were not important to me.

I never felt that the AP did anything to me. He had consensual sex with a willing woman. I didn't own my ex-wife or her vagina; he didn't sully my property. I never felt that he destroyed anything. In fact, I simply feel that he revealed something about my wife's character.

We had no kids, no joint assets, and she made considerably more than me - and no, I did not ask for spousal support - so D was far easier for me than for most. Because D was my immediate and obvious choice I felt no need to know who the OM was or to engage in the torturous sort of fact-finding sessions which are so common on TAM. 





2ntnuf said:


> Have you ever been the AP? How does it feel to know you've destroyed someone's love for your own reasons? How does it feel to be the interloper? Does it make you feel powerful? Does it make you feel more attractive? What gratification do you get from being the AP? I ask this because, you probably can get sex from a single woman if you try. So, why not do that?


Nope, never been an AP. Maybe direct the rest of your questions at someone who has. 



2ntnuf said:


> There is some greater gratification in taking another man's wife.


"Taking" is a misnomer unless the sex was non-consensual. I certainly didn't feel that anything was taken from me when my ex-wife cheated. I was simply acquainted with the reality of who I had decided to marry.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> So, what is the difference between these, 'innocent', flirtations and an affair? The decisions of the two people, at minimum, who are involved in the affair, whether it be an EA or a PA.


As I have said repeatedly, I do not require the actions of two people to experience betrayal. Maybe you would be ecstatic to live in a world where the only reason your spouse wasn't having extramarital sex is because every potential AP has the moral fiber to reject them. 

If I were to see texts from my wife to another man begging him for sex I would divorce her regardless of whether the man had said yes or no. The AP is irrelevant to my wife's willingness.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I said this on another post, but it belongs here : 

_When any person (single or married) moves a conversation into impropriety both people in the conversation are accountable to behave like an adult and finish it.

Both.

It does not matter who started it, it does not matter who is married and who is single, it does not matter if neither of them are single.

If someone pushes a conversation into a dark place you finish it. If that conversation continues, after that both are equally accountable.
_

It really is that cut and dry.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> As I have said repeatedly, I do not require the actions of two people to experience betrayal.


You don't consider someone hitting on your wife offensive, even if she rejects them?

If i were single, I would not hit on a married or committed female. I just find that distasteful to even think about being that kind of person.

How many times does he do it before you get fed up and drive the creep away?

How many guys hit on your wife how many times before you decide enough is enough and you take action?

You really think having men sniffing around your spouse day in and day out is ok as long as your spouse rejects it?



amr1977 said:


> Maybe you would be ecstatic to live in a world where the only reason your spouse wasn't having extramarital sex is because every potential AP has the moral fiber to reject them.


Moral fiber or just good sense.

I don't think anyone would be satisfied with that. But it would be comforting to know that the rest of the world is leaving your spouse alone when you turn your back on them.



amr1977 said:


> If I were to see texts from my wife to another man begging him for sex I would divorce her regardless of whether the man had said yes or no. The AP is irrelevant to my wife's willingness.


And if your wife isn't sending texts, it's just a lot of men hitting on her a lot of times and she keeps rejecting them?

You think that's a healthy situation?


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen you're changing the game to try to prove your point. 

This thread is about a partner knowingly and willingly having an affair.

The poster amr1977 specifically said he's talking about a situation where his wife or significant other is knowingly and willingly participating in an affair.

Here you go drumming up a totally different scenario- one where the wife or significant other isn't interested in the other man's advances. That's not the topic, the point, or anything even close to what the other poster was referring to.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Allen you're changing the game to try to prove your point.
> 
> This thread is about a partner knowingly and willingly having an affair.


Really... I never would have known what this thread is about... I was just the guy who started it.



lenzi said:


> The poster amr1977 specifically said he's talking about a situation where his wife or significant other is knowingly and willingly participating in an affair.


And I am using a hypothetical to illustrate a point. I guess you didn't get that...



lenzi said:


> Here you go drumming up a totally different scenario- one where the wife or significant other isn't interested in the other man's advances. That's not the topic, the point, or anything even close to what the other poster was referring to.


I am not "drumming up". I am invoking a hypothetical to make a point.

Do you not understand the purposes of introducing a hypothetical into a discussion?


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Really... I never would have known what this thread is about... I was just the guy who started it.


You completely changed the subject. 

Originally it was "are both partners accountable in an affair" and then you do something that you called "using a hypothetical" which is really nothing more than "introducing a completely different set of variables in a poor attempt to ineffectively discredit someone else's post". 

You started a thread about a wayward partner, and in your post in question, your "hypothetical" is about 2 people where one of them is not a wayward partner at all. 

It would be like me arguing the earth is flat and saying "in a hypothetical universe where all the planets are flat, I would be correct". 



Allen_A said:


> Do you not understand the purposes of introducing a hypothetical into a discussion?


I do, thanks for asking. 

In your case the purpose seems to be because you've got nothing else to work with so you do something that reminds me of my ex during our divorce. It's called "throwing a whole bunch of S**T against a wall and hoping something will stick".


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> How many guys hit on your wife how many times before you decide enough is enough and you take action?


These hypotheticals are really pointless. What context are we talking about? She and I obviously together at a bar? Her alone at work? Her ex contacting her on Facebook?

I'm not going to waste my time covering every possibility. If you want to ask what I would do in a specific scenario then I will be happy to answer.



Allen_A said:


> You really think having men sniffing around your spouse day in and day out is ok as long as your spouse rejects it?


Well, if your wife is attractive and works around men or goes out in public at all this is probably going to be your reality. My wife has had guys hitting on her since junior high; she can handle herself.



Allen_A said:


> I don't think anyone would be satisfied with that. But it would be comforting to know that the rest of the world is leaving your spouse alone when you turn your back on them.


Well, unless you have a special doorway to Monogamy-Narnia, you can go ahead and let go of this fantasy.



Allen_A said:


> And if your wife isn't sending texts, it's just a lot of men hitting on her a lot of times and she keeps rejecting them?


You seem to think that quantity is going to somehow impact what I feel is an appropriate response to a situation. OK, one AP didn't bother you, but what if like 20 dudes were totally hitting on your wife every day!?!?!

Seriously, I have clearly articulated my stance that a WS bears the full responsibility for the decision to commit adultery. I am not saying a knowing AP bears no guilt, simply that I don't really care about their guilt or innocence. If you want to blame your WS's infidelity on all the willing AP's out there, go for it. Want to impotently obsess over the AP's bad behavior? All you.

Just remember, however terribly you view the AP, your spouse thought some good times with them were worth more than your marriage. There is really no way to villify the AP without further lowering your view of your own spouse unless you just outright lie to yourself.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> Seriously, I have clearly articulated my stance that a WS bears the full responsibility for the decision to commit adultery. I am not saying a knowing AP bears no guilt, simply that I don't really care about their guilt or innocence.


OK, so now we have a contradiction. Which is it

a. the WS bears full responsibility
b. the AP bears guilt 

Seriously, you can't have both. One cannot be fully responsible if the other is bears guilt.



amr1977 said:


> I am not saying a knowing AP bears no guilt, simply that I don't really care about their guilt or innocence.


You don't care? Seriously? That's your choice then.

You are choosing not to care, which is a whole other world from a logical discussion about accountability. Choosing to care or not has nothing to do with making sensible decisions.



amr1977 said:


> If you want to blame your WS's infidelity on all the willing AP's out there, go for it. Want to impotently obsess over the AP's bad behavior? All you.


Straw man.



amr1977 said:


> Just remember, however terribly you view the AP, your spouse thought some good times with them were worth more than your marriage. There is really no way to villify the AP without further lowering your view of your own spouse unless you just outright lie to yourself.


And the AP thought some good times with him were worth more than respecting a marriage.

I am most certainly not holding the AP accountable to offset the WS being so. That again would be another straw man.

And yes, I can most certainly criticize the AP while maintaining my view of my spouse.

Marriages do have troubles, they do have bad times. The AP is not there to witness my mistakes. The AP is attacking a marriage that from their direct experience is innocent. Cheating spouses attack a marriage they perceive to have failed them.

I am not saying either attack is OK, I am suggesting the attacks are motivated differently. As such, yes I can criticize the AP's choices, as they are different choices and from different perspectives than the wayward.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> OK, so now we have a contradiction. Which is it
> 
> a. the WS bears full responsibility
> b. the AP bears guilt
> ...


Sure you can. Lots of people feel guilty for things that are in reality, not their fault. How many times do people say "You have done nothing to make you feel guilty".

Guilt is in a person's own mind. Or not. I'm sure most AP's harbor no guilt. There might be a few who think "I feel sort of bad about banging this dude's wife" but I bet they are few and far between.




Allen_A said:


> You don't care? Seriously? That's your choice then.


If I was a betrayed partner I wouldn't give a rat's ass about what the AP thought. 



Allen_A said:


> You are choosing not to care, which is a whole other world from a logical discussion about accountability. Choosing to care or not has nothing to do with making sensible decisions.


Allen you're entire thread is about "accountability". I'm not even sure what that actually means. The term is "held accountable", and if an affair partner can boing a person's spouse and suffer no consequences and feel no guilt about it, then they're not accountable, no matter what anyone else might think about their "percentage of blame".



Allen_A said:


> I am most certainly not holding the AP accountable to offset the WS being so. That again would be another straw man.


Again, so what? No one cares whether or not you hold the AP accountable. The AP sure as heck doesn't care. What you think won't change anything. 




Allen_A said:


> And yes, I can most certainly criticize the AP while maintaining my view of my spouse.


Criticize all you want. The AP doesn't care. Odds are neither does your wayward spouse. Odds are the two of them are laughing at you or doing their best to simply ignore your ranting and raving about how much blame they should be sharing. 

It's like saying "some drunk guy ran me over, completely paralyzed me, and they're 100% accountable!". Meanwhile the courts give them a slap on the wrist, maybe no jail time at all, and they go on and live their lives without thinking about you for a single minute.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> OK, so now we have a contradiction. Which is it
> 
> a. the WS bears full responsibility
> b. the AP bears guilt
> ...


I have already stated this clearly. We are each 100% responsible for our own decisions and actions. My WS is completely responsible for her choice to cheat. Her AP is fully responsible for his decision to sleep with a married person. There is no contradiction.

If two men get caught robbing a bank, is the sentence divided between them? No, they both get charged and sentenced for the robbery. This is really not a hard concept to understand.



Allen_A said:


> You are choosing not to care, which is a whole other world from a logical discussion about accountability. Choosing to care or not has nothing to do with making sensible decisions.


I am not sure we can choose what we care about. Certainly if I could have simply chosen to stop caring about my first ex when she cheated I would have done so. I don't recall my brain giving me the option.

And what we care about drives our decisions and influences our perceptions. Do you think it is a coincidence that people like me - straight to D, no second chances - never make threads about AP's guilt? I assure, it is not. I have the luxury of never thinking about the AP because my only link - my spouse - is severed from my life. 

Any pretense to pure objectivity and rationality in the face of an affair is rather silly. It is an intensely emotional experience and your thoughts and actions will be driven by these actions.




Allen_A said:


> And the AP thought some good times with him were worth more than respecting a marriage.
> 
> I am most certainly not holding the AP accountable to offset the WS being so. That again would be another straw man.


Actually all throughout this thread there have been BS's openly admitting that they are actively blaming the AP in order to lessen their anger at their WS. I can quote them if you like. You may not fall into that category, but I suspect with your appeals to logic it is more likely that you really dislike the notion that your current state of affairs might be glued together with rationalization.



Allen_A said:


> And yes, I can most certainly criticize the AP while maintaining my view of my spouse.


And what view of your spouse would that be?



Allen_A said:


> Marriages do have troubles, they do have bad times. The AP is not there to witness my mistakes. The AP is attacking a marriage that from their direct experience is innocent. Cheating spouses attack a marriage they perceive to have failed them.


Those are some huge blanket statements which obviously don't apply to a great many betrayals. My first ex was young and really liked the attention, validation, and even the taboo aspect of having an AP. Her actions had zero to do with anything happening in the relationship.

And how many AP's are told that the married spouse in a miserable, loveless, abusive relationship? Very few people have direct experience of what goes on between a couple behind closed doors so it is not really a viable standard.



Allen_A said:


> I am not saying either attack is OK, I am suggesting the attacks are motivated differently. As such, yes I can criticize the AP's choices, as they are different choices and from different perspectives than the wayward.


Let's say the AP is the biggest dirtbag in the universe. That makes your spouse the guy who is so attracted to the biggest dirtbag in the universe that he was willing to sacrifice his marriage to sleep with her.

You can criticize the AP all you like. I would probably even agree with your assessment of them. I am just saying that doing so honestly means acknowledging the implications for your WS.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> How many times does he do it before you get fed up and drive the creep away?


Maybe she should call the police if she's being harassed?



Allen_A said:


> How many guys hit on your wife how many times before you decide enough is enough and you take action?


What action are you going to take if your smoking hot wife is hit on 15-20 times a day? Find them all and beat them up? Why doesn't SHE take some action and tell them to piss off? It's really not that hard.



Allen_A said:


> You really think having men sniffing around your spouse day in and day out is ok as long as your spouse rejects it?


No but I'd like to know WHY all these men think my wife smells so wonderful? That's the red flag you should be worried about.


Why can't you understand that "men" aren't going to waste time trying to hit on a girl they have no chance with. That if your spouse is getting hit on this much then she's inviting them to. That she didn't just cave in because the AP used Jedi mind tricks on her. That the TRUTH is she probably pursued him as much as he pursued her. Your spouse didn't reject anything. She invited it.




lenzi said:


> Criticize all you want. The AP doesn't care. Odds are neither does your wayward spouse. Odds are the two of them are laughing at you or doing their best to simply ignore your ranting and raving about how much blame they should be sharing.


The odds are 1,000,000:1 in favor of this scenario. You continue to paint your spouse as a victim of the immoral OM in these ridiculous scenarios. All the while she laughs at you and humiliates you behind your back and gives the OM pornstar sex probably in your bed. They are partners in crime. She wasn't dragged into this. She not only eagerly participated but certainly helped facilitate it and many times initiated it. 

There's no such thing as a cheater with a conscious. The wayward spouse is as big a POS as the AP. Accept that then decide if you still want to be with them or you are just in a fake R.


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I think you two both need to work on overcoming your bitterness for the sake of your own health.


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## sedona (Oct 10, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> What action are you going to take if your smoking hot wife is hit on 15-20 times a day? Find them all and beat them up? Why doesn't SHE take some action and tell them to piss off? It's really not that hard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will speak as an attractive female, I'm 40 now but in my youth I was even called gorgeous by a few. I do not like saying this or sounding vain, so please know that I say this with humility, and also as someone who was an ugly duckling kid and was told by my own horrible family I was ugly, and then blossomed into my teens into a swan. So I have some very complicated views on beauty. Unlike some women who were told they were beautiful their whole lives, I was so mentally abused concerning this that I am to this day incredibly shy around men and it came as a shock to me when I was teen that men found me beautiful. So perhaps I am not the norm.

But you do not even need to tell men to piss off. Even that is something that, speaking for myself, I rarely have had to do. When I walk in a room especially with my man, thru body language I make it clear I'm his. Not clingy to him, but the way I walk proud beside him, touch him, look him in the eye when he speaks. Other men notice this stuff, and it is a rare d-bag whom will make a move on a woman like myself. If they do, again, body language. Polite, but formal. No giggles, no lingering eye contact. That s all it would take to give a green light, and my husband would not even notice. It would be easy for me then to act like I had done nothing and sit by and watch as my husband "had" to fight off the other guy from poor little me (sarcasm). 

If I'm alone, same thing. I get a little more hit on than when I'm with my husband, but again, same concept of using body language, pride, tone of voice to politely let it be known you are a friendly, warm person but not for the taking. 

And most women are programmed to be wary around unknown men anyway. It's primal.

I'm not talking about men looking. My husband says when I walk in a room sometimes men notice me. Idk, like I said my radar is off sometimes and admittedly at the same time I'm probably a little bit used to it. He likes it he says. Probably because he knows I'm not gonna lap it up and take advantage of it. 

I don't know if I've ever been as beautiful as the wives being discussed here in this thread. Maybe not so maybe I'm not even qualified to speak on this. Maybe these wives are so stunningly gorgeous that I have no idea what I'm talking about. 

But men, please. You do not deserve to constantly be in situations with your wife where you feel like when you walk in a room with her you are a cat carrying a mouse into a room full of lions. You are the lion and she should behave like your lioness!It might happen a time or two, here and there, occasionally. But if it's happening frequently and enough where it is threatening your marriage, then she is putting out the vibes. It doesn't have to be obvious vibes either. Subtle, but deliberate.

I hope some other women on here will out themselves as beautiful and lend some opinions too lol


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> I think you two both need to work on overcoming your bitterness for the sake of your own health.


That is what's known as an ad hominem personal attack. It's done when the person using it has no way to support their line of reasoning so they attack the person and not the argument.

_An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Ad hominem reasoning is normally categorized as an informal fallacy, more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance. _

"You (my adversary) is bitter therefore you are right and I am wrong."

Example usage:

_"I cheated on you and it's ok, because you are a loser"._


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> That is what's known as an ad hominem personal attack. It's done when the person using it has no way to support their line of reasoning so they attack the person and not the argument.
> 
> _An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Ad hominem reasoning is normally categorized as an informal fallacy, more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance. _
> 
> ...


I can support further argument, I just choose not to. You two both read as rather bitter, so having a logical discussion struck me as rather pointless.

when I read posts like this : 



> There's no such thing as a cheater with a conscious. The wayward spouse is as big a POS as the AP.


My motivation isn't about how to extract logic from this to challenge. My thinking is that this person is way too hurt to engage a discussion with on this matter.

My motivation isn't' about attacking, I just feel for you both. You both read as rather bitter and hurt, so hurt that arguing with either of you further would be rather pointless.


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> if you want to reconcile with your spouse, you need to hold OP accountable to a significant degree... probably more accountable than your spouse.
> 
> This may not be factually accurate, but that's the best to way to get to point B in repairing the mess
> 
> ...


I don't know why you are trying to clean up WSs.... but some views on the situation... 

First, You have a choice - either to clean the mess or to walk away from the mess... 

I disagree they prey on marriages, they prey on husbands or wives...

Of course they are equally responsible... the difference you have to deal with your spouse - not with APs...


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> My motivation isn't' about attacking, I just feel for you both. You both read as rather bitter and hurt, so hurt that arguing with either of you further would be rather pointless.


I'm divorced but it was mutual. We both basically forgot how to get along with each other, different parenting styles, financial disparities led to our downfall.

There was no infidelity, in fact I have never been cheated on, therefore I have no dog in this fight. I simply disagree with your logic and reasoning. Nothing more.

When people resort to statements like you do, which attack the person and not the argument, they're basically waving the white flag, and I accept your unconditional surrender and wish you the best of luck in trying to hold all cheaters and APs accountable. 

Go forth and prosper Allen!

Your forum friend,

lenzi


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> I'm divorced but it was mutual....
> There was no infidelity, in fact I have never been cheated on, therefore I have no dog in this fight. I simply disagree with your logic and reasoning. Nothing more.


And no direct experience with this then either.. interesting...



lenzi said:


> When people resort to statements like you do, which attack the person and not the argument, they're basically waving the white flag


I am not resorting to anything. I am choosing to do something better with my time. lol



lenzi said:


> and I accept your unconditional surrender and wish you the best of luck in trying to hold all cheaters and APs accountable.
> 
> Go forth and prosper Allen!
> 
> ...


I have surrendered nothing. Ad hominem attacks are under-handed and not constructive, but they most certainly do not suggest surrender. Not that I would consider my concern for someone's health an ad hominem attack anyways.

Other than an admission that I have a life outside this forum that needs tending to and that the two posters I referred to earlier do appear to need time to overcome some of their bitterness anyways.

Do you seriously consider this forum to be the most important part of a person's day? That stepping out of an argument must mean the person has no argument left?

That's rather narcissistic to say the least.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Do you seriously consider this forum to be the most important part of a person's day?


No, I don't, and I don't believe I posted anything even remotely supporting that concept, but it does fill in the down time at work, no doubt about it. 



Allen_A said:


> That stepping out of an argument must mean the person has no argument left?


Allen the way you've been pushing this thing for days, and then suddenly going off topic by calling other posters bitter, does suggest you're at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to supporting your argument. 



Allen_A said:


> That's rather narcissistic to say the least.


It is?

I'm a narcissist because I suggest you stepped out of the argument (more like a spirited debate) and resorted to an ad hominem attack by calling other posters bitter?

I didn't know that.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> No, I don't, and I don't believe I posted anything even remotely supporting that concept, but it does fill in the down time at work, no doubt about it.


Yup, it does.. but my work day is over now.



lenzi said:


> Allen the way you've been pushing this thing for days, and then suddenly going off topic by calling other posters bitter, does suggest you're at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to supporting your argument.


When I read people resorting to calling their former spouses Pieces of shyte that's when I recognize there's so much bitterness in there that argument is just irritating the problem. That's when I back away is when the cursing about one's spouse starts.




lenzi said:


> I'm a narcissist because I suggest you stepped out of the argument (more like a spirited debate) and resorted to an ad hominem attack by calling other posters bitter?
> 
> I didn't know that.


That's not what I said. I said assuming that if people decide to step back out of n argument with you despite other obligations and the apparent pain opponents are in would be narcissistic.

There are more important things in life than arguing. Some times you just need to recognize people are in pain and to back off and leave it alone.

Continuing would be narcissistic, as would suggesting someone has reached the bottom of the barrel yes.

Just because someone backs out of an argument with you, does not mean they have no argument. It means arguing with you isn't the most important thing in the universe.

Is that how you argued with your wife? Brow beat them until they are just sick of arguing anymore? Give it a rest and recognize some people are in pain.

I just recognize that it's not worth it to continue upsetting these people who have been through enough.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Yup, it does.. but my work day is over now.


Mine too.

See ya!


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Mine too.
> 
> See ya!


Leaving the argument? You must be at the bottom of the barrel. lol

:rofl:


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> When I read people resorting to calling their former spouses Pieces of shyte that's when I recognize there's so much bitterness in there that argument is just irritating the problem. That's when I back away is when the cursing about one's spouse starts.


The point I'm trying to make is that the WS and the AP are cut from the same cloth. You can't think one is a bad person without thinking the other is equally as bad. They both did the same thing. Hence why I said they are both POSs. You only seem to want to demonize the AP. That's just a form of rug sweeping to justify a reconciliation rather than really facing what your spouse did to you and accepting it....or not.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I am not trying to dismiss what the wayward does when infidelity happens no.

My apologies if that's how that's coming across.

My interest is to gauge to what degree if at all people hold the AP accountable.

Most seem to hold them equally accountable. Some refer to the AP as only a symptom. Others actually don't hold them accountable at all.

They aren't doing the same thing actually, that's a simplification.

IF you want to get into the details no... they aren't doing the same thing.

But it is easier to simply hold them both accountable and deal with it at that level and I would agree with that.

As far as reconciliation I don't think it's productive to refer to your reconciliation partner as a piece of shyte no.

I don't think it's even healthy to refer to your spouse that cheats on you and leaves you as a piece of shyte.

There must have been some great times during the marriage and i would respect those after exit and do what I can to not let bitterness take over.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

I don't know, seems like a shyte move to me to f*** another man while you're married. We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose.

I prescribe to the "if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." school of thought.


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## javawave (Apr 7, 2013)

while I agree they are shameless POS. the only two people I can expect to do the right thing is myself and my wife. I hate the OM but I knew he was a POS to begin with.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> Since I have dealt with this in a concrete sense, let me clarify. My ex-wife cheated with a co-worker. She told me and I divorced her. I didn't ask about the AP because I didn't care. I didn't care who pursued. I didn't care how it started, how it progressed, how many times they had sex or in what positions. These things were not important to me.
> 
> I never felt that the AP did anything to me. He had consensual sex with a willing woman. I didn't own my ex-wife or her vagina; he didn't sully my property. I never felt that he destroyed anything. In fact, I simply feel that he revealed something about my wife's character.
> 
> We had no kids, no joint assets, and she made considerably more than me - and no, I did not ask for spousal support - so D was far easier for me than for most. Because D was my immediate and obvious choice I felt no need to know who the OM was or to engage in the torturous sort of fact-finding sessions which are so common on TAM.



I agree with 2ntnuf... Thank you for the alternative perspective. It was refreshing. 

I will admit I did everything you said you didn't do but in hindsight now I wish I had handled it EXACTLY the way you did. That torturous fact-finding urge I think comes from the pain and the raw emotion involved. That somehow knowing what went wrong will help make things right. But in the end it does not. 

The who, what, when, where is really inconsequential and as to the why... Well the why is in almost all cases because she is a selfish person in her soul and just wanted to. That is her true self. There's really not much more you need to know. Either accept it and R or D.


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

amr1977 said:


> I never felt that the AP did anything to me. He had consensual sex with a willing woman. I didn't own my ex-wife or her vagina; he didn't sully my property. I never felt that he destroyed anything. In fact, I simply feel that he revealed something about my wife's character.


AMR,

Thanks - finally I found a statement that women are not property :smthumbup:

There is a very different approach to WHs and WWs here... However, any affair is always a 2-way street...


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I have to think about this some. Thanks. There is some interesting thought behind this. If you saw this same man in a group somewhere. Let's say for example that he dumped your x and you and he were at a party, for whatever reason. If you saw him chatting up some married woman, would you let her husband know what happened between him and your wife?


A lot would depend on what was socially appropriate. I ran into my first ex's AP on campus one day after we split up and he turned milk-white and refused to look up from his book as I ridiculed him for being a coward. I would probably confront in some fashion, but I might not if I were with a date and didn't really know the people there.

I am sure some tool is going to jump up and say, "you DO care about the AP, hah!!!" To clarify, I have always maintained that the AP is a dirtbag and I have no issue with people who pursue creating consequences. I am just not the type to go hunt someone down as I view it as throwing away more of time. Now if the AP walks his happy *ss into my presence then he is likely to have an unpleasant time.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> I agree with 2ntnuf... Thank you for the alternative perspective. It was refreshing.
> 
> I will admit I did everything you said you didn't do but in hindsight now I wish I had handled it EXACTLY the way you did. That torturous fact-finding urge I think comes from the pain and the raw emotion involved. That somehow knowing what went wrong will help make things right. But in the end it does not.


Believe me, I wasted my time with all the painful questions crap my first time around. Six years together, each others' first everything, etc. I probably put myself through three months of torture before I finally dumped her. I promised myself I would never go through that again.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> I think you two both need to work on overcoming your bitterness for the sake of your own health.


Christ, you do across as rather ridiculous, you trying to bend your way through this thread is laughable as you realize you don't have any argument at all 

Enough people have shot any of your ideas about the WS being a victim to pieces, that you are now trying to amend your 'points'

A wayward CHOOSES - and that's the end of the argument right there. 

She/He makes the 'open invitation' and AP responds earning them the title of conjoined posom/ow 

You can try making some 50 page thread on some quasi intellectual spurious nonsense but ultimately it's still 

....spurious nonsense


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

sedona said:


> .........
> 
> But you do not even need to tell men to piss off. Even that is something that, speaking for myself, I rarely have had to do. When I walk in a room especially with my man, thru body language I make it clear I'm his. Not clingy to him, but the way I walk proud beside him, touch him, look him in the eye when he speaks. Other men notice this stuff, and it is a rare d-bag whom will make a move on a woman like myself. If they do, again, body language. Polite, but formal. No giggles, no lingering eye contact. That s all it would take to give a green light, and my husband would not even notice. It would be easy for me then to act like I had done nothing and sit by and watch as my husband "had" to fight off the other guy from poor little me (sarcasm).
> .........
> where it is threatening your marriage, then she is putting out the vibes. It doesn't have to be obvious vibes either. Subtle, but deliberate.


Thanks for that 

It's bloody obvious - affairs only happen upon 'invitation' there's no 'mistakes' or 'misunderstandings' 

People 'put out' in the most obvious ways.

We've all been there at that crossroads 

'Whooa she just touched me there - was that an accident shall I respond with ....

Ohh she's texted me with a 'x' at the and of the text shall I respond with the same or two or 'X' with the caps 

"That's terrible, her husband really doesn't appreciate such a clever (but admittedly rather gorgeous woman!)"
........."I would if she were mine!" 

Shall I shall I etc etc 

To each one of those scenarios there's a 30 second response that would kill any affair thoughts stone dead 

I've done it, I've been there in that situation and killed it stone dead within a minute or so 



It was easy - Truth is it's always easy.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Aerith said:


> I disagree they prey on marriages, they prey on husbands or wives...


Disagree. Though it is a bit based in how one views it. At least with some men, they get a big kick out of fvcking another man's wife. Especially if it is someone within their social circle, such as a friend or neighbor or coworker. In such a case they have social contact with the BS, and frequently it is with the WS there at the same time.

In these cases the thrill of stabbing the BS in the back is a significant part of the thrill of the affair. Even better if some other mutual buddies know about it, too. The AP is getting a high off of the harm he is intentionally inflicting on the unsuspecting BS.

Sure there are times the AP finds an easier target in a married person, and that is all they are looking for. But other times there is a specific desire to harm the BS.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Aerith said:


> Thanks - finally I found a statement that women are not property :smthumbup:


I believe that spouses belong to each other. Based on the wedding vows, we agree to be exclusive. Which means I, as a man, have no right to give my body to another woman. In that sense my wife owns exclusive use of my body.

Though I am an Athiest, I think the 1 Corinthians 7 philosophy of marriage does apply. For a Christian it is in fact a Biblical statement that the spouse owns the others' sex. This is not a legal thing but it is a religious belief which a religious person should take as even higher than a law.

On a basic philosophical level I believe our wedding vows amount to the same thing, and is a verbal contract. Just as I have no legal right to give away property which belongs solely to my wife, I have no right to give away my body for sex to another woman because my wife has sole ownership of my sex. I gave her ownership via my vows.

The AP is indeed taking something which he/she not only have no right to, the WS has no right to give it to him/her.


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

Thor said:


> I believe that spouses belong to each other. Based on the wedding vows, we agree to be exclusive. Which means I, as a man, have no right to give my body to another woman. In that sense my wife owns exclusive use of my body.
> 
> Though I am an Athiest, I think the 1 Corinthians 7 philosophy of marriage does apply. For a Christian it is in fact a Biblical statement that the spouse owns the others' sex. This is not a legal thing but it is a religious belief which a religious person should take as even higher than a law.
> 
> ...


Isn't there generally "til death do us part" bit in there somewhere? I think we all know how much that is worth.

The vows are nothing more than promises. You are free to say "I own my spouse because she took these vows." However, those vows mean nothing if your spouse decides they no longer like "belonging to you."


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## outNabout (Mar 2, 2013)

Sometimes we may make the mistake of assuming that the wrongdoer's have a sense of morality, virtue or give a care. 

They may say things to justify their actions, but typically their pattern of behaviour is that they just do whatever they want usually. It's a matter of statistics. If you take all the people who are typically liars, self-centered, manipulative, mentally ill, well sad to say that doesn't leave many people left who have a sense of right and wrong. Even less will regularly act by a code of ethics. 

So we can argue all we want about who is right and who is wrong semantically. But can you even manage to hold the jerks accountable in the end? 

Maybe some of us have been clinging to dear life to our sense of morality as a refuge from the pain? Maybe the reality is that we live in a harsh world where people take what they can get and that's that. Sometimes I wonder about the saying " if you can't beat them... join them" 


But maybe I'm just too bitter about things and can't see straight right now...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*IMHO, anyone who either willing or even unwillingly participates in the physical or emotional act; and/or in any way holds it in abeyance from the jilted or the betrayed partner, whether or not they emotionally or physically participated, is certainly deemed to be a willing co-conspirator and would be guilty as such, in that they would have some innate duty or obligation to inform the betrayed of such an act being perpetrated against them!*


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

amr1977 said:


> Isn't there generally "til death do us part" bit in there somewhere? I think we all know how much that is worth.
> 
> The vows are nothing more than promises. You are free to say "I own my spouse because she took these vows." However, those vows mean nothing if your spouse decides they no longer like "belonging to you."


True, yet not relevant to the fact that the AP is knowingly engaging in a morally wrong activity. Just like if you drove a criminal to the bank so he could rob it, or you drove someone to the middle of the Golden Gate bridge so he could jump off.

The AP is indeed complicit in doing harm. And I assert that though anyone can break a promise, vow, or contract just because they want to, it doesn't make it right when they do.

Which all circles back to the AP is complicit in a wrong doing.

Now what can we do to apply some consequences to the AP? In this 'civilized' time we live in there isn't much. We can do a few things to at least make their behavior known widely, which may have some negative impacts on their future.

Mostly my point is I really disagree with the view that a small minority here have, which is that the AP is in no way doing something wrong because the WS is freely giving away sex. The WS does not have the right to do so, yet as with any activity a person can physically do anything despite any rules, laws, moral code, promises, or vows to the contrary.


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