# No desire or passion - Do you still stay?



## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

I need help. I'm so lost, or maybe I am just too chicken to cut the cord. I don't know any of you, so I am hoping you can give me real honest unbiased (unlike my friends or family) advice.

Background - 
We've been together 7.5 years, married for 4 and half of those. Around six months into our relationship, I suspected my husband had an addiction to, or at least an unhealthy relationship with, Porn. I never had really taken issue with Porn before this, because it had never hindered my relationships. I noticed though that I was always the initiator in our intimacy, and it almost always involved watching Porn together. After just over a year together, I discovered he had an account on Adultfriendfinder. I left, and broke up with him, but took him back because I think I am codependent but that's a whole other thread. I thought he would change, I thought I could fix him. Fast forward 6 months, and we are still dealing with the Porn issue, and at this point, I lay down an ultimatum that says we go to a s*x therapist or we break up. He goes, we stay together.

Looking back at this time, I realize now that I spent more time agonizing over this relationship than I did actually enjoying it. We never really had passion, or romance, he just isn't that guy. He is sort of emotionally distant, and a bit of a jerk at times. For reasons, that I now see probably weren't the best, I married him. We'd spent 2.5 years together, I was in my early 30's, I knew he'd be a good provider and father etc. 

I would never classify our marriage as happy. I remember at the end of the first year, crying to my friends about how terrible he made me feel. We almost never had s*x, and I always initiated it when we did. He couldn't finish without self stimulation and my esteem and worth were at an all time low, but I got pregnant. That was actually the best time in our relationship. He was attentive, caring, and nice most of the time, but the first year after our son was born things went down hill rapidly. The porn use continued and I felt like we were roommates, and one I didn't want to live with. I was tired of asking for what I needed, tired of wanting a man who desired me, so I shut down, and I think I just stopped loving him. I didn't respect him, how could I love him? 

I craved attention, affection, and romance, and I am weak, and rather than leaving him, I had an affair. It was easy for me to justify it, and put the blame on him. If you weren't a porn addict, and didn't criticize everything I did, I wouldn't have had an affair, but it isn't fair to put that on him. Yes, should he have been a better husband, but I should have left, and not had an affair.

So here we are, 7 months separated, he wants to make it work, and I just don't think I do, but I can't seem to pull the plug. What if he does change? What if SA helps? What if he can be more affectionate? What if? I don't want to waste my life with what ifs. Right now, when I look at him the thought of ever kissing or being intimate with him again is just stomach churning.

Can you get it back? How long do you wait? I don't want to be divorced, but I am too scared to get off the pot. 

Otherwise we get along fine, we live in a great neighborhood, with the best schools, I just want more...or maybe I want too much.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Perhaps your codependency issues shouldn't be the subject of another thread. Maybe they're the reason why you can't make the decision that you think you need to make?

Does he know about the affair? Are either of you in counseling/therapy now? Why would you believe he'll change this time?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

Yes, he knows about the affair. We have been going to couples therapy, doing date nights, and family nights throughout the week. He has been sporadically going to SA meetings trying to keep sober from the Porn, and we have both been to individual counseling. 

I have seen two counselors, and they both say that once you have disconnected from someone to the point I have, you just can't get those feelings back, but then our marriage counselors says you can, if you really want it. 

I think I am just fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, and I feel like I have been fooled more than twice. Every time I think I could be open to trying to love him again, he says something that just reinforces that he is still ultimately kind of a jerk. None of my friends like him at all. But I think maybe he'll change because this is rock bottom. He blames himself and his addiction for driving me away, and so maybe that is enough. He never sought help before. 

I am sure the codependency factors into this. I want to help him, fix him, and every available oppty since we have been separated I have surrounded myself with friends. I am never alone. Maybe I am afraid of being alone.


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

As a follow up. He had been pressuring me to let him move back in when his lease was up. I told him I wasn't ready, but he asked if I would ever be ready, so I said he could move back in. Our therapist said if we wanted to see if our marriage could really work, we should live like a married couple. But he cautioned we should ease into it, weekends first etc.

So we've been spending the weekends together at the house, and we get along fine, but I don't want to be physical with him. This past Monday we got in a big fight because I was starting to feel claustrophobic about him moving back in and I told him I want a divorce.

Then yesterday, I backed down again, because I felt bad, and he made me feel guilty for not trying, and then the hassle of divorcing and moving etc. Is this really what I want? If it was, wouldn't the decision be easier? OR is this my codependency again? Ugh. The fence splinters are getting old.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Hi Undecided,

I would agree with PBear that your co-dependency issues are a huge factor here.

I would recommend reading "Codependent No More".

One of the things that keep us co-dependents in toxic relationships is the FOG:

*F*ear, *O*bligation, *G*uilt

*Fear:* of being alone. of being a failure. 

*Obligation:* to fix our disordered partner.

*Guilt:* we feel guilty if we leave our disordered partner to their own devices. 

One thing that helped me immensely was understanding the Victim Triangle. All co-dependents need to become very familiar with this, if they want to break out of their co-dependent (rescuer) tendencies:

An Overview of the Drama Triangle

Please understand that it is not your job to fix your husband. It's all on him.

Work on fixing you. Let him work on fixing him. Then see if there's any spark betwixt you.

I would recommend staying separated until you are* both* ready to co-habitate again. Don't be pressured by your MC, IC, or him to do it sooner that you are ready to. That claustrophobic feeling you got means you're not ready yet.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Undecided,

Is your affair over?

Are you still in contact with your affair partner?


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Hi Undecided,
> 
> I would agree with PBear that your co-dependency issues are a huge factor here.


Not to hijack, but to thank you for the article reference. It is also one of the most insightful posts I have read.

It took me over 25 years to identify the codependent behaviors in myself and the passive aggressive behaviors of my wife. Now that I understand, the relationship dynamic has changed significantly. Maybe for the better, maybe not, but its so REAL now.


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

I can say that yes, it is fear, obligation and guilt keeping me in the relationship right now. Financial fear, even though I currently make more than him, he was always the planner for saving. Obligation to to my son, our families and society for sticking to vows that were said, and guilt of being the one to pull the plug and leaving him when this isn't what he wants. 

I'll check the book out and click the link. Thanks

The affair is over. It has been since December, and I am not in contact with the AP, haven't been since January when he sent a NC letter to me which I have honored. I came out of that fog in March, and really started working on myself.


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

ThreeStrikes - He says his apartment won't let him stay that they have already leased out his apartment, because I told him he could move back in. 

Basically, I have left him nowhere to go, but home. He asked me if I'll ever be ready for him to move in, and I said I don't know.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

UndecidedinATX said:


> ThreeStrikes - *He says his apartment won't let him stay that they have already leased out his apartment*, because I told him he could move back in.


Why is this your problem?

He's playing to your co-dependent tendencies.

"Rescue me, honey! I have nowhere to go! Woe is me!"

He wants his doormat back.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

UndecidedinATX said:


> *He asked me if I'll ever be ready for him to move in, and I said I don't know.*


First rule of breaking co-dependent tendencies: 

Stop saying "yes" when you mean "no".


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## hehasmyheart (Mar 11, 2010)

This sounds a lot like my story, although mine is an 18 yr marriage.

If he loved you, he wouldn't have wanted you to feel neglected and undesirable. You should never have sex with him again. He didn't want you. He would rather get off without having any emotion involved.

After years of reading on this and trying to figure my husband out, I believe these type of people are just not capable of real love.

These days, he likes to say it's ME who's not interested in sex. That's right, not after I had to beg for years, while he preferred porn. He only cares NOW because I was in an EA, and happily told him.

We haven't had sex in over 2 years, and I need to assert myself to find a way out of the marriage from hell. I might have a couple years of feeling sexy left. I've wasted MANY good years where I could've had a fulfilling love/sex life. My advice to you would be not to waste any more years.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Were you HAPPIER on your own without him? If your answer is yes, then its already decided that its over, you just need to come to terms with it. Life is too short for crap like this.


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

I know I shouldn't have agreed as I wasn't ready. But he was pressuring me, my mother was pressuring me, his mother was pressuring me. I wasn't ready, and it isn't my fault that his apt won't work with him, but I can't seem to break myself, mostly because I keep falling back on my son's future. That is the leverage everyone is using on me. I'll screw him up. And I know there are no certainties. 

My mother, his mother, etc, keep telling me if I have loving feelings toward him, and think loving thoughts toward him, the desire etc will come back. If that is the case, couldn't you just fall in love with some random person from the street. I mean, at least there wouldn't be all the bad history.

See what I can't seem to make a decision....I think I'll get that book tonight.

I read the victim triangle, and I can't tell if I am the persecutor or the victim, maybe both....ugh.


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

Thank you hehasmyheart. 

Why do I let him make me feel guilty for me not trying hard enough. I tried for 5.5 years, and got nothing back.

I have thoroughly enjoyed our separation. I liked living alone, and doing things that he wouldn't do. I never really missed him. The guilt, and obligation is eating me up.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

UndecidedinATX said:


> I know I shouldn't have agreed as I wasn't ready. But he was pressuring me, my mother was pressuring me, his mother was pressuring me. I wasn't ready, and it isn't my fault that his apt won't work with him, but I can't seem to break myself, mostly because I keep falling back on my son's future. That is the leverage everyone is using on me. I'll screw him up. And I know there are no certainties.
> 
> My mother, his mother, etc, keep telling me if I have loving feelings toward him, and think loving thoughts toward him, the desire etc will come back. If that is the case, couldn't you just fall in love with some random person from the street. I mean, at least there wouldn't be all the bad history.
> 
> ...


The thing with the victim triangle. It's musical chairs. You enter the relationship on a corner, then change roles. Start off as a rescuer. When your partner doesn't react with enough appreciation? Morph into the persecutor. 

Ultimately, you will end up a victim.

Stay off the corners. Get centered.

Stop trying to please everyone. It's not possible.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Your mother, his mother, his landlord, blah blah blah!

Do they live with him? Do they tolerate his addiction? His abuse?

Why would you let them make your decision?

Whatever decision you make...make it *yours.*


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

I can see that. I probably did start as the rescuer. I researched all the different s*xual dysfunctions I thought he had, then suggested we get a therapist, worked as his police officer asking him every day if he had looked at (his request that i do that) and I became resentful, I didn't want to be a parent, and all the while his use of this stuff made me feel horrible about myself, but I let him continue to do it. I think I moved to persecutor because I started to really resent my needs not being met, and would do things out of spite to punish him. In my mind, I thought well he is being selfish and getting his needs met, why don't I get to have mine too. Because then he would make me feel badly, victim...hmm....I am starting to see what is going on here.

I think after years of that, you just don't care anymore, and how could you possibly love someone how did that to you, but the thing is I allowed him to treat me that way, because I didn't feel good enough about myself to demand more.

Can he change? Can he be affectionate, and tender, and romantic? He says he can. I just don't know. It's the unknown that keeps me hanging on.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Never listen to an addict's words. Observe their actions.

If you want to give him time and see if he'll change, then nobody will fault you.

However, I would recommend you stay separated while he works on himself and you work on you.

If he has moved back in, then perhaps you should recommend he find another place while he gets his counselling for his addiction.

In the meantime, get IC yourself with the focus on your co-dependency. If your current IC isn't addressing it already, then discuss it with him/her. Or find a new IC.

PS. I started as a rescuer as well. Now I try to stay centered, because I understand the triangle. Conquering your co-dependent tendencies will give you an entirely different outlook on your life.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

UndecidedinATX said:


> It's the unknown that keeps me hanging on.


I would posit that it's the hope for your "idealized family life" that keeps you hanging on. It's what keeps many co-dependents in dysfunctional relationships.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

He needs a serious wake-up call. I'm not sure if he has yet figured out how close you are to choosing divorce, regardless of the outside influences. At the very least, before he moves back in, I think you need to make it crystal clear where you stand. That you aren't happy, that his behaviors and approach to the relationship is unacceptable. That he is ONLY coming home because you feel sorry for his pathetic ass and to let him have this one FINAL chance to prove himself, for the sake of your son. I'd lay out exactly what behaviors are the issue and what you expect from him. No more excuses or leniency. Be direct, firm and maybe even put it in writing for him so there is no miscommunication. 

A lot of this sounds like the same story of my wife and I. I took her for granted, I demanded sex and abused porn in the meantime because I felt entitled to it and that her feelings of betrayal from it were wrong and she needed to get over it. (Yeah, I thought her FEELINGS were WRONG. Smart guy I was, right?) I left her feeling lonely, unloved, undesirable, and as you already know, it doesn't take much from another guy, even a scummy guy, for a woman in that situation to be lured into an affair. When she was desperate for affection, for anything she could get, she was lured into an affair that she never sought but when you are lost in a dessert starving of thirst, even toilet water would be pretty tough to turn down.

Was it wrong of her/you? Absolutely, no question. Do I/your husband share in the responsibility for it happening? Absolutely, no question. I think that him understanding that will need to be a key element for him if he is going to be able to do what he needs to do to save the marriage. He needs to forgive you, accept his share of the responsibility, and not ever hold it over you again.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

By the way, I had the porn problem as well. As part of his therapy, he needs an accountability partner, preferably a very close friend or perhaps another person who is also in therapy for porn. Next he needs accountability or filtering software (or both) on all of his internet connected devices of any kind. Computers, smart phones, tablets, even video game consoles or e-readers. Frankly, video game consoles can't be controlled so he should not be allowed access to them or at the very least you need to be shown how to check the histories on them. If they are ever blank, he's busted. There is software for smart phones and PC's, both free and paid that can either filter content or simply provide accountability. Any site that is accessed that is remotely questionable will send an e-mail to an accountability partner alerting them. For me it is my pastor. He once got an alert when my daughter accessed something like, "girlsgogames.com" which was some kind of an innocent girls game portal or something online, but it was still funny when he texted me about it.

Remember, porn is an addiction, he will be incredibly tempted to find any way possible to access it. As part of the therapy, he needs to lose access to ANY POSSIBLE access point for a minimum of six months.


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

CDBaker - I read your story on another thread, and thought our marriage problems mirrored each other pretty closely. 

I think my H does recognize his part in things, and to his credit I can see him making the efforts to change, but I fear it is just too little too late, and I do catch glimmers of the old H from frequently. But I think he knows that the guilt I carry about my A, and the potential impact of a D on our son, can keep me under his thumb and may be using that against me.

I told him I would give him 1 month after he moved in without doing anything just to see how things go. He said I shouldn't put a time table on it. I said, I don't want to waste too many more months feeling this way, I'm not getting any younger, and our son just keeps getting older and more aware.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Put a keylogger on the computer. Check his browsing history. 

In other words, snoop. Find out if he's living up to his promises, or just bamboozling you.

What do you mean by this?:

*"I told him I would give him 1 month after he moved in without doing anything just to see how things go."*

Without doing anything? Can you clarify that?:scratchhead:


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

The original plan was for him to move back in and we would try to work it out. But then I got claustrophobic and told him I wanted a divorce. Then we decided he would move back in until everything was finalized, because he had already given notice at his apt. He wants our home in the event of a divorce, and I told him he could have it, as it is way too much house and yard for me to be bothered with for just myself and my son. I had already contacted a realtor about finding a smaller town home. 

Then the codependency reared up, I got scared, and felt guilty and said that since he was already moving back in, I might as well give it a shot for 1 month. During that month I won't contact my attorney etc, or make moves to find another place to live,and try to remain open minded. 

He has removed safari from his phone, we don't have a home computer, but if he is going to look at it, I can't stop him. And he knows it is a deal breaker for me.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

UndecidedinATX said:


> Thank you hehasmyheart.
> 
> Why do I let him make me feel guilty for me not trying hard enough. I tried for 5.5 years, and got nothing back.
> 
> I have thoroughly enjoyed our separation. I liked living alone, and doing things that he wouldn't do. I never really missed him. The guilt, and obligation is eating me up.


See? You truly are NOT "UndecidedinATX". You are done, you just need to face that fact. I understand how hard it is when you dont want what it is that you really want....make sense? And its ok, really...you have given it more than many of us would have.


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> See? You truly are NOT "UndecidedinATX". You are done, you just need to face that fact. I understand how hard it is when you dont want what it is that you really want....make sense? And its ok, really...you have given it more than many of us would have.


Yes, It totally makes sense. I hate that I want a divorce, but I am pretty sure that is what I want, and that makes it so hard to choose it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

UndecidedinATX said:


> Yes, It totally makes sense. I hate that I want a divorce, but I am pretty sure that is what I want, and that makes it so hard to choose it.


I have been EXACTLY there.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

I think it is a good idea to set a timetable for yourself where you will commit to NOT reaching out to an attorney, realtor, other men, etc. If you aren't 100% on divorce, then be 100% on your marriage, until such time that it is impossible. If you split yourself somehow, it is probably inevitable that you'll go the D route.

"But I think he knows that the guilt I carry about my A" This part here is HUGE. One problem my wife and I faced was the fact that my awful behavior/attitude as a husband for years ultimately led her to engaging in adultery with a few guys before our separation. She was desperate for affection and craved any attention she could get. The biggest affair was over three months long and it blew up publicly, every one found out despite even I trying to keep a lid on it. This created many problems:

1. She felt awful. Her already poor self esteem and depression from our marriage got even worse as she felt the shame and guilt of her actions.
2. I already had a problem with thinking and acting as though I was superior to her. I always ensured I was perceived as a GREAT husband and father. (I was probably a C father and a D- husband. D- only because I never committed any "cardinal husband sins" like physical/sexual abuse, didn't drink/do drugs, gamble, etc.) Before her A, if she shared her unhappiness with friends/family, they wouldn't understand her because everyone viewed me as a wonderful husband/father and would try to convince her of that. After the A and the fact that I didn't kick her out, I went from being "GREAT" to downright saintly. Now everyone would praise me for being willing to take back my poor adulterous wife. So while she felt alone and worthless before the A, now she had no hope socially/publicly. Her friends/family were firmly in "my camp", not hers.
3. As mentioned, I already had an inflated ego. The praise from everyone around me for standing by her after the A could have EASILY blown it up and ensured that I would never be able to see my many areas of fault. It's really hard to see the ugliness below when your head is being lofted into the clouds every day right? She knew that as well, and realized that her A coming out probably meant I would never be able to even recognize that I needed to change, let alone commit to it. When she left or indicated that she was considering it, I could have easily walked away and still been viewed as a saint by everyone, including future single women. (Imagine going out on a date with a divorced man. Wouldn't it make you feel a lot better about him if you knew you could boil down the failure of his marriage to his wife cheating on him and leaving, vs. him being responsible? Yep)

These elements, in addition to the obvious pain, resentment, distrust it built between us both, really ensured that we were headed for divorce or (as it miraculously turned out, and I really mean a miracle) a very long separation that began as a divorce filing. So he really has to accept that he shares an enormous degree of the responsibility that led to your A. That he cannot put it all on your. Naturally that isn't all on him either, but he has to own that responsibility and forgive you completely. It would be VERY easy for him to use that to expect that you somehow owe him and the marriage more than you should. After all, who hasn't heard others say things like, "Dude she cheated on you, she should be groveling at your feet begging for you to take her back." or some similar version of that. The perception is that a struggling marriage might involve each spouse being 30-70% responsible for the breakdown, but once one of them is a cheater, suddenly it's 90+% that spouses fault.

Ultimatums are always a bad thing in a relationship, but you haven't really given him an ultimatum as much as you have set up a personal boundary for yourself. You need to see improvement within a certain time frame. Just again, make sure you are genuinely open to it and are actively helping him to see and achieve the changes he needs to make. If you aren't fully committed to it, then you are just wasting time.

Lastly, relating to the porn again, he really really has to agree to more drastic changes than getting rid of safari on his phone and promising to stop. He is an addict and that will lead him to FINDING ways. I'm not saying he's a lying ******* or anything, I'm just saying he won't be able to help it on his own. He won't want to hurt you, but I'm willing to bed it'll happen. In general, if they can't have their smart phone locked down completely with filtering/accountability software that automatically sends out alerts to others when tampered with, then they need to lose their smart phone and switch to a generic "dumb phone" for a while. If he has access to video game consoles, tablets, computers, "smart TV devices", etc. then he might need to lose access to those or at the very least ensure that you know your way around all of them and can check for cleared histories or install accountability/filtering software. He also aught to get a friend/fellow addict to be an accountability partner as well. Typically speaking, we were expected to reach out to our accountability partner at least once every single day when I started recovery. We'd discuss our day, different ways in which we were tempted or felt urges to find porn that day, and ways to avoid it or eliminate it going forward. I know all of this sounds pretty serious/demanding, but I'm really not kidding about this, you have to realize that porn reprograms the brain over time and can cause cravings no different than those experienced by drug addicts and alcoholics, and we'll be just as motivated as they are to satiate those cravings.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

UndecidedinATX said:


> Thank you hehasmyheart.
> 
> Why do I let him make me feel guilty for me not trying hard enough. I tried for 5.5 years, and got nothing back.
> 
> I have thoroughly enjoyed our separation. I liked living alone, and doing things that he wouldn't do. I never really missed him. *The guilt, and obligation is eating me up*.


You have an obligations to yourself and your son BEFORE your obligations to your mother, MIL, society at large, et al. 

To yourself: To be happy, healthy (physically, emotionally, mentally, sexually, spiritually), productive, living in a way that honors the precious few years you've been given! Someday your son will be an adult and will no longer need a "mommy"; you need to insure that YOU will be happy and vibrant in a life that is of YOUR choosing because - although at times you'll be someone's wife/daughter/mother...it won't be for your WHOLE life so - you'd better be happy with UndecidedInATX at ALL times!

To your son: To show him what a good, healthy, productive, mature, equal, caring, sharing PARTNERSHIP looks like so he will expect/demand such a relationship for himself! If you show him dysfunction, he will come to expect dysfunction...it will feel normal to him and he'll seek to recreate a pattern that is predictable (maybe not comfortable, but predictable). 

The adult males in his life will be teaching by example how adults live, how men live, how married men live....is your h the kind of example you would want your son to emulate? Your h SAYS he can change, well he's had 7.5 years to change and hasn't made the effort. Why? Because you & son were NOT WORTH THE EFFORT! Now that you're threatening him with divorce, NOW he wants you to believe that he'll change! Talk is cheap! Manipulators LIE, cheaters LIE, liars LIE...it's easy.

If he's REALLY willing to change, then LET HIM DO IT. Not TALK about it, DO IT. NOW. There is NO LAW that says you guys can't stop the divorce at any point if you have seen real, honest, substantive change. There is NO LAW that says that you two cannot remarry if you have seen real, honest, substantive change. But, the change must come BEFORE the reconciliation. And how can you reconcile with someone for whom you have no respect? It's not possible.

Please get Co-Dependent No More, answer (in writing) EVERY question at the end of EVERY chapter. Use it like a workbook! 

I know whereof I speak; just finished the book earlier this year with the help of a TAM buddy (we PM'd/emailed our responses to each other and helped each other by asking questions to prod the other to think more deeply about our individual problems). I left a 19 year marriage with a man whom I had not respected in years; leaving him was THE BEST THING I've done in at least 10 years! I have not regretted it for one single hour/minute. I have my self-respect back and now I enjoy life EVERY DAY (was very depressed around STBXH and our crappy relationship).

Work the book thoroughly; it will be the best few hours you have invested in yourself in YEARS! Once you finish the book and understand YOURSELF better, I think you will have a clearer understanding of what is in both you and your son's best interest! No-one will know what *that* is better than YOU (not your mom, h, MIL, siblings, etc.)

You have my heartfelt best wishes! (Sorry this is so long.)


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

CD- The accountability and effort involved in his recovery has been a sticking point for me. As of yet, I still don't think he has a sponsor for SA. He uses the fact that he travels as an excuse not to attend the meetings, but knows that they have online and phone meeting resources. Plus he travels to the same city every week, so he could find a meeting there if he was really committed (in my opinion). He has already fallen off the wagon several times in the last few months, and said that living alone it is easy for him to do it. He got rid of safari, but figured out a way to do web searches using his Facebook account, which he has now removed off his smart phone as well. However, most of his viewing was done at work on his work computer, and over that I have no control as to whether he is doing it anymore.

And yes, all of his friends and family have made me out to be the devil because I had the A. He says that he tells them that they don't really know what I had to put up with from him, so they can't blame me completely. 

SGW - Thank you. I will purchase the book this weekend and really start to work on it.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yep I told all of our family and friends to not judge my wife, that they had no idea of the what our relationship was like and how I led her to that moment. Naturally they didn't really believe me, so ultimately I ended up revealing all of my own dirty laundry to "even the playing field" which helped for a lot of them. I didn't like them thinking of my wife as some kind of a dirty ***** because of the situation that I basically walked her into, so I didn't mind becoming that "dirty *****" myself. For some, like my mom of course, it didn't make a difference.

Yeah the thing with the phone is that is takes all of 30 seconds to install and uninstall an app, and you can never fully remove every browser anyway. Seriously I used to go through a ten minute or so process most nights to get my fix of setting up apps/settings to access porn and then erase the evidence. If he is reasonably tech savvy, he'll probably find ways to get around anything, which is why he really needs to be barred from technology altogether for a while unless his job absolutely demands it. Even then, he really should get some filtering software and a key logger on his work computer. His addiction is at another level too if he is willing to risk his job by using his work equipment to access porn.


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## soulconnection (Jul 10, 2013)

To the poster who mentioned the free smart phone watchers-please share.

My H has a porn addiction as well, though he won't admit to it. I'm the type of person who is extremely monogamous, however...I had chemistry with another man last week. Nothing happened but what a wake-up call. My situation is really getting low. My husband seems to really be trying but after years of a lack of connection and affection and then finding that his porn addiction crossed a line, I wonder if its too late, too. I use to be crazy affectionate...but now the lame wife who doesn't want to be touched : / I feel for your situation....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Soulconnection, there are a lot of apps out there that CAN help. The problem with them is that most of them (well, all of them really) aren't perfect, they aren't tamper proof, and can't catch everything. On smartphones, the two I'm familiar with is x3watch and Covenant Eyes. Both are accountability apps that monitor web use on certain browsers and the installation/deletion of apps. Any apps that are deemed questionable are reported to the user's accountability partners via e-mail.

The idea here is that there are three legs to the system that allows porn addicts to get their fix. The first is Affordability (usually free), the second is it's accessibility (it's virtually everywhere on every device) and the third that it's use can be completely anonymous. (Very easy to hide, no obvious external indicators of porn addiction) Accountability software is designed to cripple that last leg, which can break down the whole system. If an addict can't get his fix without alerting others to his activity, then should help motivate him to avoid it.

I use x3watch myself on my android phone and have two guys from my church as my accountability partner. (The wife should never be the accountability partner, I can't emphasize that enough! He will crash from time to time and it'll break her heart to find out, and with her likely not being able to relate to what causes it, she'll be a very poor support person for this) If I access sites or apps that are questionable, or install/delete apps that can access questionable content, then they are informed and can question me about it.

The problem with these apps is that they tend to only work on certain browsers, and there are usually ways to avoid them. For instance, there are tons of free browsers available on Android, but X3Watch only works with three of them., and at least one of those even offers an "incognito" mode that prevents history info from being saved/checked. So on my phone, I don't allow myself to use other browsers, and if I install any, my accountability partners will know about it. I also avoid the browser that offers the incognito mode. An addict could uninstall the app, but that too will usually cause an alert message to their partners letting them know.

This software is also available on computers and tablets as well. Video game consoles are out of luck however. The best scenario with a newly admitted addict is to remove as many of these devices from their reach as possible. Switch to a dumb phone for a while, get rid of the internet connected game consoles or at least let your wife secure the wireless internet password so that they can't go online. Install tough software on the computers in use and require all passwords on it be known by her, etc.

It's a tough process, believe me.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

cdbaker said:


> .... Do I/your husband share in the responsibility for it happening? Absolutely, no question.


No way ... Both partners contributed to the marriage failing, but the WS owns the betrayal 100%. Anything other than that implies the WS didn't have other choices: IC, uncoupling etc.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yeah I get that the affair was her choice alone. She bears responsibility for crossing that line. But if you've beaten down your spouse over the years to such an incredible extent in so many different ways that she is left in such a vulnerable position as to be susceptible to the kind words of another man, any man, then don't you share in the responsibility? Didn't I swear to my wife that I would love and honor and protect her, not just physically either, and fail in that commitment? Could I really point at her and justifiably put all the blame on her? If you beat a dog relentlessly for years, when it eventually bites you can you really blame the dog?

Again, she takes responsibility for crossing that line, but my hands are anything but clean in the matter.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

cdbaker said:


> Yeah I get that the affair was her choice alone. She bears responsibility for crossing that line. But if you've beaten down your spouse over the years to such an incredible extent in so many different ways that she is left in such a vulnerable position as to be susceptible to the kind words of another man, any man, then don't you share in the responsibility? Didn't I swear to my wife that I would love and honor and protect her, not just physically either, and fail in that commitment? Could I really point at her and justifiably put all the blame on her? If you beat a dog relentlessly for years, when it eventually bites you can you really blame the dog?
> 
> Again, she takes responsibility for crossing that line, but my hands are anything but clean in the matter.


I am certainly not saying that you both are not responsible for the problems in the relationship. You for being abusive, and her for not standing her ground. I do understand your position, but my response is unchanged. You may have driven her to the fence, but she is the one who jumped over. Your abuse was open and dysfunctional, her betrayal was clandestine. You were forced to participate in a triangle without your consent. There is a world of difference between the two. 

Here on TAM, it would be suggested you are enabling her betrayal by not allowing her to take responsibility for her actions and receiving the consequences. You remain the victim in a morally superior position. I was there too. Kindest Regards


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yep, I see your point too. In my case, this was also over three years ago, during which she moved out, we were fully separated, she got a job and went back to school (graduates this December), etc.. So I don't know how much I really enabled anything in that timeframe, aside from not divorcing her. I think we're both victims.

Either way, back to UndecidedInATX's situation...


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

He moves back in on Friday, but to start in separate bedrooms. In addition, he'll be traveling the next two full weeks for work, so we'll have that time separated as well, only together on weekends. 

When we were discussing it last night, we also discussed custody issues, and all of our retirement and investment account situations, so I don't he is laboring under false pretenses. 

He said that since he is going to be gone, our month long "see how it goes" experiment will really only be two weeks, unless we "start the clock" when he comes back. I said, why don't we just take it one day at a time.

And I do accept full responsibility and blame for having the A. I came to that realization in March after emerging from the "fog" but really just realizing what an arse I had been to all involved, and that I didn't consider anyone else's feelings but my own. Not my child's, his children and wife, nor my husbands. I was a self entitled jerk. I own that, but the marriage was broken and I didn't have the coping skills at the time to figure a less cowardly way out.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

So my next question is, what are the terms of him moving back? I think you really have to have a "reconciliation plan", similar to a separation plan, that details quite specifically what the expectations are. 

1. What efforts or "homework" do each of you have to work on every day/week? 
2. What are the rules of interacting with each other while in the home? (Like knocking before walking into the bedroom, as I'm guessing the "You're allowed to see me naked" while changing and such rule is suspended. Or maybe identifying a kind/respectful way to ask for space from the other without offending?)
3. What will be the guidelines for parenting? With things so unstable between you right now, I think it's a terrible idea for him to move back in now as it will only hurt your/his kids even more if it doesn't work out, so make sure there is no fighting around them, no false expectations presented, etc.
4. What are each of your financial obligations to the household? Who will pay what and when?
5. Make a schedule of the days/times you will get together specifically to work on marital issues, either alone or with an MC.
6. Other special rules between the two of you.

Lastly, make sure he is really darn clear on WHY you are letting him come back. It's because you feel sorry for him and felt pressured by him and others to do so. Make sure he understands that he shouldn't misconstrue this to mean that you want him back yet, feel that he has redeemed himself, or feel remotely comfortable with him yet. When someone lets their estranged spouse return home, it really makes it look like their relationship has substantially improved and is on the mend, and often times the spouse will relax their efforts as a result. Don't let that perception exist.


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## UndecidedinATX (Jul 29, 2013)

CD - Those are great points. I had already mentioned writing down things that we need from each other, things that are absolute deal breakers etc. Our son is 2.5 so I am not sure how much he understands, but he will definitely be aware of the change. I think he too is aware that I'm really only letting him back because his lease was up, and if we divorce he wants the home anyway. At this point, if it doesn't work, I'll be the one moving out. 

I agree, I think watching his behavior these next few weeks will be really telling as to how much he has, or really can change.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Yep, just be CLEAR and DIRECT every step of the way. If he eases up on his efforts after being home, then what results will be his own fault and he'll have no excuse.


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