# Ladies what do you really want?



## veryconfusedhusband

Been looking around on here lately and it appears my wife and I are at a crossroads yet again. We love each other and have two small children. Yet it alway seems we have a conflict either a big one or something so small I do not know what it is. My wife is always wanting to "fix" our problem for good which she sees as communication. 
I don't think it is communication at all she just does not like some of my answers. Seriously when we have a serious talk she almost starts to cross examine my responses and almost get me to answer a certain way. The big problem we have is really just the classic one: I want and need more sex. She wants more communication and closeness. But here is the kicker I can give her all the closeness and communication to the moon and back but yet the sex life stays as a total back burner for her. 
We tried marriage counseling but in the end it seemed to make things worse. It was like she tested me in between each session. Now before anyone says well I need to help her more around the house etc. trust me I more than pull my share. On the flip side if you say I need to Man-up etc. I have tried that too. Once in counseling she even admitted that she does not know what gets her in the mood I even joked it is like Green Eggs and Ham. We all had a laugh and she agreed. 
Lately I have just kind of given up cause tired of being the one that in charge of getting her in the mood only to be shot down 90% of the time. She says she is still in love with me and finds me attractive but never ever says anything sexy to me. Never really compliments me much at -- I did not even notice this for like the first 10 years cause not that big of deal to me but now it makes me resentful to tell her how beautiful she is etc. when I never hear anything back. So anyway we are in a three week no sex slump and I have not said a word about sex nor flirted or anything. After kids go to bed she is happy to look at FB, Pinterest or watch TV. Feel like I have another sister. 

Not sure what I should do - she thinks we need to go back to counseling and work on communicating more as if she could just change me into the perfect clone of what she wants then life would be fine. For now I am just going to be that clone I guess but will not cannot show her any real husband type affection cause then I feel used. 

Any ideas?


----------



## Heavyhearted

Join the club....there is nothing you can do. When situations like this occur, men are basically helpless until the woman decides she wants to change and have a happier marriage. Right now she is only focused on what she needs and not what you need. When and if she ever decides to put her selfishness aside and consider you for once, she might discover that everything she has been wanting and desiring in the marriage will suddenly be fulfilled. Good luck!


----------



## GreenEyes

Ok...sometimes it's not about us being selfish believe it or not....It gets tiring being the one that does the bulk of the work around the house, even if you do help her out, how much more does she do(?), does she work a full time job? As mom's, especially to young children, it seems that we never have time to ourselves and sometimes that's all we want...If we aren't taking care of the kids, we're taking care of the house and after that we have to take care of "your" needs, where does the "me" time come in for us???

Luckily for my H, I want him most of the time just as much as he wants me, we average 4 times per week or so, but there are nights that I just want to be left alone to do what I want to do....Actually I went through a period one year where all I wanted was to be left alone...you get so tired, as the mom and wife, of running constantly doing what everyone else wants and needs you to do....

I'm not denying that there is a problem there and you guys need to work on it, but it's not just a matter of the wife being "selfish".....


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

We actually really agree on chores. I work full time she works part time but i do most of the grocery and cooking as well as at least half of kids laundry. We really get a long in this way and are very fair to each other - we never argue over chores. That is not it for us. She says she just is not the type to be overtly flirty or sexual but she is lots of fun in bed and is receptive to all kinds of stuff once we get going.


----------



## Heavyhearted

GreenEyes said:


> Ok...sometimes it's not about us being selfish believe it or not....It gets tiring being the one that does the bulk of the work around the house, even if you do help her out, how much more does she do(?), does she work a full time job? As mom's, especially to young children, it seems that we never have time to ourselves and sometimes that's all we want...If we aren't taking care of the kids, we're taking care of the house and after that we have to take care of "your" needs, where does the "me" time come in for us???
> 
> Luckily for my H, I want him most of the time just as much as he wants me, we average 4 times per week or so, but there are nights that I just want to be left alone to do what I want to do....Actually I went through a period one year where all I wanted was to be left alone...you get so tired, as the mom and wife, of running constantly doing what everyone else wants and needs you to do....
> 
> I'm not denying that there is a problem there and you guys need to work on it, but it's not just a matter of the wife being "selfish".....


Well, his post did say, "Now before anyone says well I need to help her more around the house etc. trust me I more than pull my share." So, I don't think she is just tired from housework. Besides that, how much longer are women going to use the housework/I need "me" time excuse? Men are tired and need "me" time too are they not? You will only get out of a relationship what you are willing to put into it. It sounds like this guy's wife wants to reap all the benefits without lifting a finger to keep the marriage alive and strong.


----------



## GreenEyes

Heavyhearted said:


> Well, his post did say, "Now before anyone says well I need to help her more around the house etc. trust me I more than pull my share." So, I don't think she is just tired from housework. Besides that, how much longer are women going to use the housework/I need "me" time excuse? Men are tired and need "me" time too are they not? You will only get out of a relationship what you are willing to put into it. It sounds like this guy's wife wants to reap all the benefits without lifting a finger to keep the marriage alive and strong.


Well a man's definition of "I pull my share" doesn't really say much. I mean that could mean, "hey I do the laundry, and that's not a "man's" job" when in reality laundry doesn't put that big of a dent in the work that needs to be done daily around the house...Yeah men need "me" time too, but I'm talking about "me" time that includes only "me".....And we will continue using the housework excuse until men equally split it right down the middle....

I never disputed the fact that you will only get out what you put in, that kinda goes without saying, but for you to jump right out and say that women are being selfish...that's crap


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

What does it matter what I want, shouldn't it matter what your wife wants? She has told you. What are you doing to fix that?


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Trust me that is not i do it all as does she we really are fair and she never complains about this nor do I.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## okeydokie

GreenEyes said:


> Well a man's definition of "I pull my share" doesn't really say much. I mean that could mean, "hey I do the laundry, and that's not a "man's" job" when in reality laundry doesn't put that big of a dent in the work that needs to be done daily around the house...Yeah men need "me" time too, but I'm talking about "me" time that includes only "me".....And we will continue using the housework excuse until men equally split it right down the middle....
> 
> I never disputed the fact that you will only get out what you put in, that kinda goes without saying, but for you to jump right out and say that women are being selfish...that's crap


is it ever concievable that a woman is being selfish? i know that men can be selfish, why does it never seem like a woman is capable of being selfish and spoiled and not contributing to the marriage?


----------



## Trying2figureitout

Dude you and I are in the same boat minus counseling with longer lapses.

I essentially gave up trying to "fix" our issue, one can only do so much. Then you are done.

I'll try when she tries... that's where I'm at.

Otherwise I just live my life and don't give her too much in return extra. I'm not mean, I do my share but I no longer go out of my way to try to impress her etc.

If she complains about anything I let it just roll off my back without saying anything.

She got us here... I tried really hard for two years. I'm done.

I won't leave her because i made a lifelong vow. One of these days I'm hoping she gets a clue and decides that sex is a way to have a better marriage. She is not deaf so I know she has heard over and over my main needs. Up to her now.

Good Luck.

PS... I feel better not feeling like I'm doing nice stuff that gets no response.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Women need to understand that you can only neglect a husband for so long.


----------



## GreenEyes

okeydokie said:


> is it ever concievable that a woman is being selfish? i know that men can be selfish, why does it never seem like a woman is capable of being selfish and spoiled and not contributing to the marriage?


Woman can be selfish, but it seems on this site that if a woman is not having sex with her H it's because she is being selfish or has something wrong with her....


----------



## Runs like Dog

Once we started 'communicating' was when the crockery started to fly. When people say 'we need to communicate more/better' often they mean 'you have to listen and obey a whole helluva lot more' which, to be frank, is often a good idea. I wouldn't stress the chores thing though unless and until you can agree on two things: 1) a compact list of what those are and 2) a clear understanding that once apportioned, WHOMEVER has that chore is free to do it however they wish w.o. the other person clucking and complaining about it. Related to this is the old passive aggressive caveat: "If you want me to do something, ask. But if you demand to do something yourself for the thrill of whining and complaining about it later, go do that somewhere else. I don't care."


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Every woman is different. For me, I want honesty, affection, respect, trust, love, ect... Affection is at the top of my list. I need flirting(from husband only), touch, holding time, sex, ect...

All of my needs are met. I'm very open with my communication and I make sure all my husbands needs are met as well. I tell him that I appreciate all the effort he puts in. I thank him constantly for the things he does for me.

My husband and I put equal effort into our marriage as far as our needs go. We don't have expectations of each other, but we both do what needs to be done with life in general. He obviously puts in more physical work then I since I'm disabled, I have a lot of down/resting time, but I do make sure the housework is done and the kids and pets are taken care of. He works(more then one job) to pay the bills and does all of the grocery/supply shopping.

Our marriage is very strong and we have a very deep bond. We are each others best friend. We found true love with each other. We support one another with our hobbies, dreams and goals.


----------



## okeydokie

GreenEyes said:


> Woman can be selfish, but it seems on this site that if a woman is not having sex with her H it's because she is being selfish or has something wrong with her....


i would have to disagree with you on that, no disrespect intended. i think there are an equal amount of responses that blame the husband for not meeting the wifes emotional needs. and there are responses that float in between. i have always said that if these types of posts were gender anonymous, they wouldnt last very long because there wouldnt be anyone to blame.


----------



## GreenEyes

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Every woman is different. For me, I want honesty, affection, respect, trust, love, ect... Affection is at the top of my list. I need flirting(from husband only), touch, holding time, sex, ect...
> 
> All of my needs are met. I'm very open with my communication and I make sure all my husbands needs are met as well. I tell him that I appreciate all the effort he puts in. I thank him constantly for the things he does for me.
> 
> My husband and I put equal effort into our marriage as far as our needs go. We don't have expectations of each other, but we both do what needs to be done with life in general. He obviously puts in more physical work then I since I'm disabled, I have a lot of down/resting time, but I do make sure the housework is done and the kids and pets are taken care of. He works(more then one job) to pay the bills and does all of the grocery/supply shopping.
> 
> Our marriage is very strong and we have a very deep bond. We are each others best friend. We found true love with each other. We support one another with our hobbies, dreams and goals.


I think that's a huge problem in marriages, you need to be each others best friend, you need to have fun together and work together. If a marriage is treated like a "you do for me because it's your obligation as my husband/wife, and you can only neglect me for so long before I'll find it elsewhere..." it doesn't make it fun for anyone involved...When my H is being fun, laughing with me and joking with me (which are some of my biggest needs from him) I am more attracted to him than ever.

It's awesome that you and your husband have such an awesome relationship


----------



## GreenEyes

okeydokie said:


> i would have to disagree with you on that, no disrespect intended. i think there are an equal amount of responses that blame the husband for not meeting the wifes emotional needs. and there are responses that float in between. i have always said that if these types of posts were gender anonymous, they wouldnt last very long because there wouldnt be anyone to blame.


True, and no disrespect taken  I just tend to get irritated when the auto-response from people is he/she is selfish, has a mental problem...I know that we can only go from what the OP tells us, but the truth of the matter is, there are probably a whole list of things that are factoring into her behavior that we don't know about, not saying anything he is doing/not doing, but I don't like when men say "she can only neglect me for so long" really? and then what? cheat? It's just irritating when men say that....and would be just as irritating if a woman says it...


----------



## okeydokie

GreenEyes said:


> True, and no disrespect taken  I just tend to get irritated when the auto-response from people is he/she is selfish, has a mental problem...I know that we can only go from what the OP tells us, but the truth of the matter is, there are probably a whole list of things that are factoring into her behavior that we don't know about, not saying anything he is doing/not doing, but I don't like when men say "she can only neglect me for so long" really? and then what? cheat? It's just irritating when men say that....and would be just as irritating if a woman says it...


i am a neglected husband (you'll have to take my word on that), and it would be easy for me to jump on the blame bandwagon. but i really try not to. by the same token, i know how frustrating it can be to be ignored by your spouse.

and i dont really see why that statement would bother you, "she can only neglect me for so long", take the she out of it and it makes sense. nobody should be negelcted in their marriage, it leads to ultimate disaster


----------



## norajane

> She says she is still in love with me and finds me attractive but never ever says anything sexy to me. Never really compliments me much at -- *I did not even notice this for like the first 10 years cause not that big of deal to me* but now it makes me resentful to tell her how beautiful she is etc. when I never hear anything back.


So you are expecting her to be different after 10 years of being who she is? Why?

I don't know what will help you, but I don't see how counseling can hurt. It should be able to help YOU communicate with your wife, and to help her learn to listen to you instead of trying to get you to say what she wants to hear, if that is what is going on based on your OP.

If she is saying that communication and closeness is a problem, it IS a problem whether you think so or not. Lots of sexual problems start outside the bedroom - they are marital problems that lead to lack of sex. A counselor is a good place to explore those problems and to express yourself and your frustrations.


----------



## GreenEyes

okeydokie said:


> i am a neglected husband (you'll have to take my word on that), and it would be easy for me to jump on the blame bandwagon. but i really try not to. by the same token, i know how frustrating it can be to be ignored by your spouse.
> 
> and i dont really see why that statement would bother you, "she can only neglect me for so long", take the she out of it and it makes sense. nobody should be negelcted in their marriage, it leads to ultimate disaster


Because that phrase, "she/he can only do _this_ for so long" sounds like a cheaters threat to me...If she is neglecting her H sexually, there is a reason, I"m sure she's not doing it for the fun of it...

I completely agree with you, nobody should be neglected in a marriage, been there done that, but the thing is you have to keep working on it, marriage is a never ending work in progress, I could have easily said oh you neglected me for so many years, now I will cheat on you and it's your fault...If I would have taken that attitude and stopped working my marriage wouldn't be progressing in the way that it is today...sure we still have some major downs, but they aren't the first and won't be the last.

Two people + a lifetime commitment does not equal a smooth road.


----------



## Goldmember357

i wonder that to


----------



## Goldmember357

GreenEyes said:


> Because that phrase, "she/he can only do _this_ for so long" sounds like a cheaters threat to me...If she is neglecting her H sexually, there is a reason, I"m sure she's not doing it for the fun of it...
> 
> I completely agree with you, nobody should be neglected in a marriage, been there done that, but the thing is you have to keep working on it, marriage is a never ending work in progress, I could have easily said oh you neglected me for so many years, now I will cheat on you and it's your fault...If I would have taken that attitude and stopped working my marriage wouldn't be progressing in the way that it is today...sure we still have some major downs, but they aren't the first and won't be the last.
> 
> Two people + a lifetime commitment does not equal a smooth road.


agreed


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trying2figureitout said:


> For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
> Women need to understand that you can only neglect a husband for so long.


You know what my very first post here at TAM was? A question about how to give my husband better oral sex after years of him being the refuser/non communicator. That was two years ago and he thought all was well because he was getting laid and I didn't mind since I am a very HD woman/part dude. Know what? None of my needs are being met, none. His idea of communication is letting me know who he traded on his fantasy football team, updating me on his career and sending me cartoon jokes via email. He will look you dead in the eye and tell you we "talk" all the time. When we do "talk" about us, it is me doing the talking while his eyes dart around the room or he plays with his phone. Eye contact doesn't exist with that man. 
You know that high drive I mentioned? Dead for him. Not for others, just for him.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Hey guy don't hIjack my thread. Really wanted opinions from females because I need help and the logical reaction is that she is selfish or I am but that is what is strange I really don't think either of those are true. I feel like she just does not get how important this is to me. And confusing cause she enjoys it when we do it but just will not realize I just need it more. For example never in our twelve years of marriage have we had sex two days in a row. She has only Initiated once or twice. For her the pattern seems to be that she wants sex like desert only on weekends only after a really nice day never right after her period never if tired or stressed the list goes on and on. So this means once every few weeks usually. And on these times I have to initiate and it is nice but we don't actually have sex until almost midnight and even then she is like slow down. But once we get going it is great she always orgasms etc plus we really go at it. So odd that this has to be such a rare occurrence. My idea now is to be as nice as I can but no more flirting at all mostly cause I am just tired of the rejection. But if course she wonders what is wrong etc cause I am not being so attentive. She says I am attractive but can't ever say something sexy or fun without me pushing the issues and she only occasionally bites. What gives?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Hey guy don't hIjack my thread. Really wanted opinions from females because I need help and the logical reaction is that she is selfish or I am but that is what is strange I really don't think either of those are true. I feel like she just does not get how important this is to me. And confusing cause she enjoys it when we do it but just will not realize I just need it more. For example never in our twelve years of marriage have we had sex two days in a row. She has only Initiated once or twice. For her the pattern seems to be that she wants sex like desert only on weekends only after a really nice day never right after her period never if tired or stressed the list goes on and on. So this means once every few weeks usually. And on these times I have to initiate and it is nice but we don't actually have sex until almost midnight and even then she is like slow down. But once we get going it is great she always orgasms etc plus we really go at it. So odd that this has to be such a rare occurrence. My idea now is to be as nice as I can but no more flirting at all mostly cause I am just tired of the rejection. But if course she wonders what is wrong etc cause I am not being so attentive. She says I am attractive but can't ever say something sexy or fun without me pushing the issues and she only occasionally bites. What gives?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well for starters you can start by calling us women and not "females".  Next up, what are you doing to make yourself emotionally available to her? In reading what you wrote, she has told you she needs more emotional intimacy, so what are you doing?


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Hey guy don't hIjack my thread. Really wanted opinions from females because I need help and the logical reaction is that she is selfish or I am but that is what is strange I really don't think either of those are true. I feel like she just does not get how important this is to me. And confusing cause she enjoys it when we do it but just will not realize I just need it more. For example never in our twelve years of marriage have we had sex two days in a row. She has only Initiated once or twice. For her the pattern seems to be that she wants sex like desert only on weekends only after a really nice day never right after her period never if tired or stressed the list goes on and on. So this means once every few weeks usually. And on these times I have to initiate and it is nice but we don't actually have sex until almost midnight and even then she is like slow down. But once we get going it is great she always orgasms etc plus we really go at it. So odd that this has to be such a rare occurrence. My idea now is to be as nice as I can but no more flirting at all mostly cause I am just tired of the rejection. But if course she wonders what is wrong etc cause I am not being so attentive. She says I am attractive but can't ever say something sexy or fun without me pushing the issues and she only occasionally bites. What gives?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It wasn't until my husband and I were fully emotionally connected before I really initiated sex. I mean, my husband is the nice guy type, he does everything in the world for me. He's always positive, never complains about anything. He's very patient also. I realized what he was doing and then I began researching how men think and what they need. That's what brought me here. I initiate everyday, which I don't want to be a burden on him, but I can't help it. I'm totally in love with my husband. I have such a great desire for him. Maybe it's because he's so patient, kind, has my back, protects me, is so affectionate towards me, looks me in the eye when we have conversations. My husband and I were defiantly made for each other. We compliment one another very well. After writing my first post, I emailed him another appreciation letter. He's a bit stressed out today and hopefully it will cheer him up. He never shows when he's in a bad mood, but I can feel it in my gut something's bugging him.

It wasn't always like this. After I broke my neck, it took me a long time to accept the pain and limitations. I went from running 36 miles a week to barely walking a few hundred feet at time. My husband always was by my side supporting me, even if we went months without any intimacy. I finally woke up and realized how much effort he put into our marriage day after day. I apologized to him for the past and I promised him this would never happen again. I think we sometimes take life and what we have for granted. It's best to always look at the bright/positive things in life instead of the negative.


----------



## GreenEyes

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Hey guy don't hIjack my thread. Really wanted opinions from females because I need help and the logical reaction is that she is selfish or I am but that is what is strange I really don't think either of those are true. I feel like she just does not get how important this is to me. And confusing cause she enjoys it when we do it but just will not realize I just need it more. For example never in our twelve years of marriage have we had sex two days in a row. She has only Initiated once or twice. For her the pattern seems to be that she wants sex like desert only on weekends only after a really nice day never right after her period never if tired or stressed the list goes on and on. So this means once every few weeks usually. And on these times I have to initiate and it is nice but we don't actually have sex until almost midnight and even then she is like slow down. But once we get going it is great she always orgasms etc plus we really go at it. So odd that this has to be such a rare occurrence. My idea now is to be as nice as I can but no more flirting at all mostly cause I am just tired of the rejection. But if course she wonders what is wrong etc cause I am not being so attentive. She says I am attractive but can't ever say something sexy or fun without me pushing the issues and she only occasionally bites. What gives?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know, if you guys have mutual respect for each other and neither of you is selfish I think the only logical answer is _Life_, Life is happening, you have 2 small children, jobs, etc. There are many nights that my H initiates sex and I do not want to do it at all because I"m tired or something, but then it ends up being awesome, it's not that I don't want him, I'm tired and at the moment until I get going I can't imagine being able to get into it at all, therefore, I do not initiate a whole lot....


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> First, I think you need to understand that just because she thinks you're attractive does not mean she will want to have sex with you or feel the desire to please you sexually. I find plenty of men very attractive but have no desire to be anywhere near them and never think about having sex with them.
> 
> So, sex for me is more about connection and passion than it is simple attraction. Perhaps your wife is similar and although she finds you attractive she feels no desire or emotional stirring that prompts her to want to have sex with you?
> 
> If she is then I can tell you that the only thing that will motivate her to want to have sex with you is to feel passionately moved to do so or a desire to connect with you.
> 
> While you may be aroused by simple visual (say if she wears tight pants or her nipples show through her top or just because it's been a week or so and you're horny), she won't be the same. So first you have to understand that she is not at all like you (of course this is only if she is more like me than you).
> 
> Then you have to understand that, like you, she can't truly understand you or your needs because she literally is ignorant and even when you spell it out for her, she has trouble empathizing.
> 
> This is why I think fear of losing your husband when they "man up" or 180 work temporarily because it stirs the woman's desire to connect. I don't think it will work permanently.
> 
> So the question is...what will work?
> 
> The answer is not simple otherwise all men would find it and then implement it to get what they want...which is regular sex.
> 
> In my opinion, in relationships where sex is not the problem (although there may be a host of other problems of course), the two spouses are in sync for sexual chemistry. The man is physically attracted to the woman and this is maintained and the woman is passionately moved by the husband.
> 
> In the case where the man isn't getting sex I think the best advice is to begin to understand your wife's passions, what makes her swoon, get excited, feel moved to great joy or sadness?
> 
> I think the love languages touch upon this accidentally. You need to understand your wife's love languages because even though you may have a pretty good foundation in your marriage, you are not successfully moving your wife to feel passionately for you on a day in/day out basis.
> 
> Asking her directly may not help either because she may not have any idea, or she have shut this part of herself down completely and won't give herself permission to feel it as a result of taking care of others and what she feels are her life/family obligations.
> 
> So I would ask you to figure out what makes your wife excited? What does she love to do for herself as herself? What are the things about her that make her who she is or who she was if she no longer indulges in them?
> 
> You give her the outlet to feel comfortable, even entitled, to be her passionate self and I think you will discover she will want to connect with you more sexually.
> 
> It's not an easy solution though and there are no guarantees, but really wouldn't any husband who loved his wife want his wife to be able to be her passionate self within the relationship and their family anyway?


And Trenton sails in Dennis Connor style for the win. Listen to this master yachtswoman.


----------



## that_girl

I want a slap on the ass and a smile.

Make me laugh.

Chill with me.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Ok thanks females! Funny know offense meant. But seriously l appreciate the feedback and think lots if it is accurate. But my hurdle seems to be that the emotional connection she seeks is so elusive. For example that connection often occurs on weekends and sometimes in weekends we have sex. She has very long cycle so at least one weekend of the month it more there is no sex. She does not even consider fooling around at all when on her period or just after. I have never pushed this but does make me scratch my head sometimes in that even if I had to keep my pants on I would happily kiss her and play around anyway I enjoy giving her pleasure. So anyway back to my main point that connection is tough to reach sometimes and even when it is there it often does not mean we will have sex and sadly it has never translated into her initiating. Seriously sick of doing it myself and the thing is I am really into her I am thinking about her almost always when I finally relieve myself. But as I get older I find I really don't like to do that so much makes me sad cannot have the real thing. So should I stick with my current strategy of no physical affection or giving compliments, flirting etc? This last weekend was typical we were all together as a family I had some alone time to work out she had several hours to go shopping while I had kids it was a nice weekend. But at nIght it was like I was with my sister I guess she might have responded if I flirted some but who knows and if we had done it some mysterious clock would have started that says we cannot have sex for at least another week or more. Just tired of not beIng wanted physically. I bet she will rediscover herself sexually right about when I get ED!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GreenEyes

Well doing things like that when on your period is a person by person thing...some women are cool with it, others aren't and I think that is something best left to someone's personal preference....Nothing says sexy like a visit from Aunt Flo!!! And the smell is simply intoxicating!!! lol sorry


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Yeah I have never pushed that as I stated but see then I am left with three possible weekends. It really is like a puzzle that cannot be solved she has basically admitted to that and said I am just not into flirting or initating and oh by the way I want you to focus in our marriage but that never ever helps me with my issue. Seriously even during the very best periods of our marriage I have struggled openly and quietly with this lack of sexual intimacy. I think part of it is that she does not understand what it means to think about sex all the time and the other part us that I should just accept her for how she is..... Which makes a lot if sense but I can't go have sex with anyone else so I am stuck. If we did not have kids I would just be gone a lot and hopefully she would desire me. I look at other pretty women and think us this how they are too? She is such a great woman seriously I love her so much but I just can't show it much anymore until she starts by telling me nice things and being sweet to me in a way that is different than her brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Toffer

Have only read a little bit of this post so far but I have to disagree with Green Eyes a little (at least in my situation)
Our children are mostly older now (13, 18 and 20) and the oldest is away at school. My wife of 26 years works part time during the week (less than 4 hours per day) and yet I am still in the same boat as Veryconfudedhusband and like him, I do help around the house too, everything from washes dishes after dinner (the only meal I am consistently home for) to laundry as well as the typical manly things (yard work, repairs etc.)

We have talked about this many times over the years and went to counseling too. Things would improve for a few weeks or a month and then just backslide despite my efforts of spending more time with her (for God's sake I even sit and watch Dr. Phil with her at night and some other shows I'm too embarrassed to acknowledge). Don't get me wrong, she's actually a great wife except in this one respect. I love spending time with her and talking, she is my most trusted friend.

I too have done the Alpha dog approach with limited success and most of the time I just feel like checking out. She RARELY initiates and I know that this and the low frequency makes me feel like less of a man since it seems (after numerous rejections) that my wife does not want me in that way. No, I have't let myself go at all and she in the last year has lost 30 lbs and look great (but I always thought and told her she looked beautiful to me).

i know she loves and cares for me but after 26 years of marriage it's not always enough.


----------



## Toffer

As I believe Rhett Butler the comedienne on said "A man is like a linoliem floor. Lay him well and you can walk on him for 40 years!"

I know that for myself when we have one of those weeks where we have actually had sex two times in 7 days, I am very complient and my wife knows this!


----------



## GreenEyes

Toffer said:


> Have only read a little bit of this post so far but I have to disagree with Green Eyes a little (at least in my situation)
> Our children are mostly older now (13, 18 and 20) and the oldest is away at school. My wife of 26 years works part time during the week (less than 4 hours per day) and yet I am still in the same boat as Veryconfudedhusband and like him, I do help around the house too, everything from washes dishes after dinner (the only meal I am consistently home for) to laundry as well as the typical manly things (yard work, repairs etc.)
> 
> We have talked about this many times over the years and went to counseling too. Things would improve for a few weeks or a month and then just backslide despite my efforts of spending more time with her (for God's sake I even sit and watch Dr. Phil with her at night and some other shows I'm too embarrassed to acknowledge). Don't get me wrong, she's actually a great wife except in this one respect. I love spending time with her and talking, she is my most trusted friend.
> 
> I too have done the Alpha dog approach with limited success and most of the time I just feel like checking out. She RARELY initiates and I know that this and the low frequency makes me feel like less of a man since it seems (after numerous rejections) that my wife does not want me in that way. No, I have't let myself go at all and she in the last year has lost 30 lbs and look great (but I always thought and told her she looked beautiful to me).
> 
> *i know she loves and cares for me but after 26 years of marriage it's not always enough.*


I think this explains why the divorce rates are so huge....forget the fact that she is a wonderful wife, does a lot for you, is your most trusted friend, that's not enough...so in other words a wife that doesn't do sh*t, is not trustworthy and does not care about you, but had sex with you a couple times a week would be better?

The thing about marriage, as I posted before, it's not always going to be perfect, you are not going to be happy as a little clam 100% of the time and neither is she, it's how you come through these times together that makes it what it is, and people just aren't willing. I understand that sex is a necessity, I love it, couldn't live without it (well unless my H had a medical reason he couldn't, then I would manage) my point is that sex is now looked at as top priority, marriage is perfect in every way, but not quite up to your expectations sexually, chuck it! .....JMO


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Toffer that does sound similar and bit good for my future. Sometimes I wish she was the type to go out more with girlfriends etc and maybe they would gossip or something cause this can't be how most women perceive normal. I have tried this approach many years ago and she just said well I dont care about what other people do. But I would hope a good girlfriend or someone would change her perspective about this.....this complete lack of initiation and desire is this normal or ok? Women? Wish I could find a way to flirt without flirting and please don't tell me help with kids and all that cause I do lots and most cooking and cleaning etc too or at least half this is not an issue seriously I wish I was one of those guys who could just be more attentive and helpful and have a better sex life but trust me it has zero effect. So ideas? I really appreciate a woman's idea cause I am stuck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GreenEyes

Has she EVER been the type to initiate? Or are you just now getting tired of who she is??? Just asking...


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Never been one to intimate much but much more suggestive when dating and then less after married and now even less. Chuck it? Are u kidding? This is like basic thing eating, sleeping, sex. I cannot turn it off just because other areas are good in our marriage. I guess that is what she wants? Who knows?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Toffer

GreenEyes, this explains why divorce rates are high?? I have been with my wife (married) for over 26 years now! If I had wanted out over this issue ALONE (and BTW, I didn't say I wanted out NOW but I see how you may have gotten that idea by my choice of wording) I would have been gone years ago.

We went through the same issues many folks here are experiencing now and especially the issues of my wife's lack of desire when the children were younger. I knew she was tired and needed me time as well as some richly deserved sleep and I used to help her get that by yaking the kids to visit their grandparents on the weekends so she could sleep-in, go to the mall, hang with friends etc.

From what I've read here, it seems that someone like Inlovewithmyhusband (who has a physical disability) has a very strong (and more frequent) love life than I do (and that's great for her). I just want to move myself in that direction more and I think that both my wife and I would enjoy.

I'll also ask if you've read up on what a man thinks about the bond that sex forms between him and his spouse. Sounds like Inlovewithmyhusband has. I just read about it myself a few months back and it really opened my eyes. Before that I often questioned myself thinking that it was just the physical aspect of the act that was lacking but there is a much deeper bond that men form with sex than women realize.

May I ask about your relationship? How long have you been married? How many kids (and what ages)?. How often do you and your spouse have sex? How often do you initiate?


----------



## GreenEyes

^^^ Been together 9 years, married 4, 2 kids (4 and 8)....sex varies from 3 to 5 times a week, and sometimes, but rarely, once or twice a week depending on his work schedule, he works midnights sometimes...Sometimes twice a day, ex. this weekend kids were gone for the night and the next day, he got oral (initiated by me) and regular (also initiated by me) He initiates more than I do, but I do when I want to, only turn him down if I am exhausted, sick or uber p*ssed at him for something....even when I'm mad though I rarely turn him down cuz I still have needs lol....When he's sick, tired or mad he turns me down too though so that one works both ways for us....


----------



## Toffer

That's great for you. Sounds a little more like our sex life was too many years ago and therein lies my issue. 

While I know I am not perfect I do know that I do more around the house than I was able to do earlier in our marriage. I chalk that up to the kids being older and more responsible now and two out of three have their own cars (and one is away in college) Currently, my wife works 3.5 hours a day (M - F) and I commute 1.5 hours each way to work (leave house at 6 AM and typically home just before 7 PM). ife's commute is 7 mins one way

I could only wish for sex 3 - 5 times a week! I know that we have had sex a total of 9 times since January 1st. I'm not even expecting or hoping for anything close to what you have. Hell, If I was having sex 5 times in a two week period I'd be much happier! 

Also, I have NEVER turned my wife away when she intiated except for one time years ago where I was uber p*ssed and she knew how mad I was and tried to make me get over it with sex. Like you have needs, I have needs. My wife does too but again not as hish a drive as I have.

I hope you never have to live with the feelings of rejection that I and other members of this board (both male and female) have had when they've been turned down time and time again. It is soul crushing regardless of gender and for a man it is a blow to our often too tender egos and gives us pause to start questioning our self worth. If your husband rebuffed you 80% of the times you intiated, don't you think that you'd start to wonder if you were attractive enough for him or a good enough lover? These are the kinds of thoughts that will go through your mind after YEARS of rejection with no good reason other than I'm tired, it's that time of the month, etc. As it stands now, most of our intimacy (when it does happen) is on the weekends so it's not like we have to get up early for work


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Toffer said:


> As I believe Rhett Butler the comedienne on said "A man is like a linoliem floor. Lay him well and you can walk on him for 40 years!"
> 
> I know that for myself when we have one of those weeks where we have actually had sex two times in 7 days, I am very complient and my wife knows this!


Ahem, that was drunk comic Brett Butler, not Rhett Butler played by Clark Gable. He would have said "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!".


----------



## Toffer

Veryconfusedhusband, sorry for jacking your thread.

I just thought it necessary to try and give GreenEyes a little more perspective of what I am going through after her last response to me. I also felt that you're going down the same road I did and I hope my 26 year perspective will keep you from making the same mistakes that I did. I let my wife convince me earlier in our marriage (when we were dealing with a very young family) that sex wasn't as important as the kids and there needs so she/we needed to pretty much put it aside at times and focus on them. MISTAKE

GreenEyes, I mean no offense. We are both just coming from different places and I was just trying to illustrate that point because I thought you were starting to paint this issue with a slightly broad brush. You are obviously a more sexual woman than my wife ever was. That's a good thing and you have a very lucky husband! Don't ever lose that aspect of your personality!


----------



## Toffer

Thanks for the correction TherealBrighteyes! Guess once I hit 50 the memory is starting to go! Also, I was never a real Gone With The Wind fan!


----------



## GreenEyes

Toffer said:


> Veryconfusedhusband, sorry for jacking your thread.
> 
> I just thought it necessary to try and give GreenEyes a little more perspective of what I am going through after her last response to me. I also felt that you're going down the same road I did and I hope my 26 year perspective will keep you from making the same mistakes that I did. I let my wife convince me earlier in our marriage (when we were dealing with a very young family) that sex wasn't as important as the kids and there needs so she/we needed to pretty much put it aside at times and focus on them. MISTAKE
> 
> GreenEyes, I mean no offense. We are both just coming from different places and I was just trying to illustrate that point because I thought you were starting to paint this issue with a slightly broad brush. You are obviously a more sexual woman than my wife ever was. That's a good thing and you have a very lucky husband! Don't ever lose that aspect of your personality!


Absolutely no offense taken  And I truly meant none either. I really hope that for both you and the OP things turn themselves around because you are absolutely right, nobody wants to be rejected and feel unloved or unattractive to their SO I agree with you on that 100%.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Toffer said:


> Thanks for the correction TherealBrighteyes! Guess once I hit 50 the memory is starting to go! Also, I was never a real Gone With The Wind fan!


You should. Strong man, strong woman. Sexual energy.


----------



## Halien

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Ok thanks females! Funny know offense meant. But seriously l appreciate the feedback and think lots if it is accurate. But my hurdle seems to be that the emotional connection she seeks is so elusive. For example that connection often occurs on weekends and sometimes in weekends we have sex. She has very long cycle so at least one weekend of the month it more there is no sex. She does not even consider fooling around at all when on her period or just after. I have never pushed this but does make me scratch my head sometimes in that even if I had to keep my pants on I would happily kiss her and play around anyway I enjoy giving her pleasure. So anyway back to my main point that connection is tough to reach sometimes and even when it is there it often does not mean we will have sex and sadly it has never translated into her initiating. Seriously sick of doing it myself and the thing is I am really into her I am thinking about her almost always when I finally relieve myself. But as I get older I find I really don't like to do that so much makes me sad cannot have the real thing. So should I stick with my current strategy of no physical affection or giving compliments, flirting etc? This last weekend was typical we were all together as a family I had some alone time to work out she had several hours to go shopping while I had kids it was a nice weekend. But at nIght it was like I was with my sister I guess she might have responded if I flirted some but who knows and if we had done it some mysterious clock would have started that says we cannot have sex for at least another week or more. Just tired of not beIng wanted physically. I bet she will rediscover herself sexually right about when I get ED!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry to intrude in the Ladies Lounge, but some of the replies in this post really remind me of a debate on another web site long ago, which became really eye opening about the differences between men and women describing a subject like this.

On this other site, I noticed what I thought to be some interesting differences in how the men and women interpreted intimacy. They were using the same terms, but I got the impression that the men understood the words to mean something completely different than the women. I had never participated in forums outside my career fields, but my wife and I did seem to really understand each other well when it comes to a positive sex life, so I replied. Biggest mistake ever. Learned not to touch certain paradigms.

Regardless, there are a couple of areas where I personally think some men miss a subtle, but very important point in these discussions.

First, when we put alot of effort into trying to understand her needs, we often make the assumption that asking or observing her alone will not only enlighten us, but be enough to maintain a strong sex life. Maybe we mimic the things she likes, such as watching certain types of shows or movies. The problem is, most women have a really good handle on what they like, but how can a younger wife automatically know what she will eventually come to like in the masculine traits that her husband will bring to the relationship? We should expect her needs to change over time.

It is far too easy, in my opinion, for us guys to stop at just mirroring her interest in what she already knows of herself early in the relationship. My dad used to jokingly say that too many men try to become more like a woman in their desire to make her happy, but lose the masculine part of us in the process. We forget that a younger woman may not have the experience to know what to tell us when it comes to our masculine identity and how it can really affect her. You see men who say that their wife was happy with them at first, but began to be less interested in them and actually make comments about other men's traits. In our response to such posts, we can't always assume that she no longer appreciates the nice things he does, or even assume that he isn't working hard to maintain intimacy. Sometimes, she's just grown, and may appreciate the masculine confidence more. For example, if she's never been comfortable with the role of the initiator, expecting her to keep initiating is pretty pointless if she responds to a strong initiator.

In this type of case, where it isn't a case of a wife deliberately pulling away from the intimacy, I don't think that refusing to initiate, or spend time with her, or any other 180 tactic will really accomplish anything. Its like asking her to be someone she isn't. And then it seems like the goal for many men at this time just becomes sex. What she perceives to be a mechanical act. In my opinion, this is the time that a husband really needs to focus more on confidence, initiating intimacy more confidently, but doing so in a way that makes it obvious that she is the goal, and not that the sex act itself is the goal. The sex part of it comes naturally in most cases, if we really understand how her needs mature or change through the years.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Not refusing to be with her just done asking, trying, and flirting. Done. Not cause it is going to help its for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Toffer said:


> From what I've read here, it seems that someone like Inlovewithmyhusband (who has a physical disability) has a very strong (and more frequent) love life than I do (and that's great for her). I just want to move myself in that direction more and I think that both my wife and I would enjoy.
> 
> I'll also ask if you've read up on what a man thinks about the bond that sex forms between him and his spouse. Sounds like Inlovewithmyhusband has. I just read about it myself a few months back and it really opened my eyes. Before that I often questioned myself thinking that it was just the physical aspect of the act that was lacking but there is a much deeper bond that men form with sex than women realize.


Your absolutely right, it's a bond that is very deep. It's so beautiful it's hard to describe with words.

It took me 3 years to accept my disability/neck(spine) injury and I'm grateful for life and I don't take anything for granted. We were headed for a sexless marriage because of my neck pain until I woke up and realized how much my husband was supporting/doing for me. We can't get wild and crazy like I'd like to, but the passion is there.

You can't have sex without passion either. It's a very disconnected feeling. I pray my drive continues on this path.

My husband and I both put a lot of effort into our marriage to make it this successful.


----------



## norajane

Halien said:


> And then it seems like the goal for many men at this time just becomes sex. What she perceives to be a mechanical act.


This, yes. Intimacy is a combination of emotional, intellectual and physical intimacy. For some, there is also a shared spiritual intimacy. 

If we lose the emotional and intellectual connection, sex becomes only about relieving a physical need (mechanical, physical only). And then when a man only notices the bad sex life and focus on having sex sex sex, a woman can become resentful because it seems that's the only kind of intimacy her man "cares" about...that's the kind he wants to "fix". 

How many threads are started with "my wife won't have sex with me"? How many are started by men with "my wife and I have drifted apart and are not connecting on an emotional level" or "we don't seem to have much to talk about anymore" or "we don't seem to share excitement about our future together?" or "we have not learned how to argue productively and are constantly bickering and nagging each other"?

That speaks volumes to me - it says men only see a problem if they aren't having sex as often as they want to. Everything else can go to hell in the relationship, but dammit, sex is the only thing they care enough to put effort into fixing it.

I don't feel long-term physical passion for a man unless he and I are in sync emotionally and intellectually, too. If that's broken, he can call me LD or whatever, but the truth is, I'm not into him in other ways and am not connecting with him in other ways LONG BEFORE I lose interest in having sex with him. He just never noticed or listened to me saying so before - not until the sex dried up. THEN, we have a "problem", by his definition.

My two cents.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Should have saved your two cents!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## norajane

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Should have saved your two cents!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If that is how you speak to your wife, and how well you listen to her, then yeah, I'm not surprised you are veryconfusedhusband.

Good luck getting the answers you want to hear.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

No I just thInk you took a lot of effort into a post that blames men completely. I came to this forum cause I see in men's forum it is often turned into a man up thing or she is spoiled etc. was hoping to avoid that kind if knee jerk reaction here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## okeydokie

to me its all about control, whether its a man or a woman that doesnt want sex (there are plenty of examples of both on TAM). "i have something you want and im gonna get what i want first"


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

veryconfusedhusband said:


> No I just thInk you took a lot of effort into a post that blames men completely. I came to this forum cause I see in men's forum it is often turned into a man up thing or she is spoiled etc. was hoping to avoid that kind if knee jerk reaction here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You came here in the Ladies Lounge asking questions. Do you want to hear answers or do you want to attack those of us who answer you? I don't give a rat's butt about you but I will answer if your question is sincere and not a method to toss barbs at women. So what shall it be?


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Answers are great but to just go on some rant about men in journal is a waste of time. All I said was that she should have saved her two cents and all of a sudden you are in here talking about rat's butts. Who is attacking?


----------



## GreenEyes

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Answers are great but to just go on some rant about men in journal is a waste of time. All I said was that she should have saved her two cents and all of a sudden you are in here talking about rat's butts. Who is attacking?


I think norajane's comment was well presented, it didn't sound accusatory or mean toward men, rather she was trying to give it to you from what could be your wife's perspective....


----------



## that_girl

I just said I wanted a crack on the ass.

And a smile.

Maybe a sammich.


----------



## SprucHub

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You came here in the Ladies Lounge asking questions. Do you want to hear answers or do you want to attack those of us who answer you? I don't give a rat's butt about you but I will answer if your question is sincere and not a method to toss barbs at women. So what shall it be?


Nora's answer was a general rant against what "men" complain about and see. (E.g., "it says men only see a problem if they aren't having sex as often as they want to"). There are plently of women who complain about being in a sexless marriage and their complaints sound very similar to the male complaints. It can be offensive when someone says men are suffering from a terrible sex life because " he never noticed or listened to me".

I, for one, absolutly am attuned to my wife, her feelings, moods, sentiments. I can order for her better than she can for herself. I anticipate her needs and wants. I listen to her problems; I try to make her laugh; I gave her 2 years of not asking for anything after our last baby. 

She will say I do as much as anyone can ask for from a husband, as will any of her friends or family that are around. And no, I am not whipped, I like being helpful and simply love her.

She was perfectly happy and not thinking anything was wrong with me or our relationship. Her problem was that she did not understand sex as an emotional connection - it is just sex, which is exhausting. She took a long time and 3rd party verification (she read sex starved marriage, she wouldn't take my word for it because I was just trying to get sex). She finally understands there is an emotional aspect. She is "trying" to be better. 

This is not a she/he thing, it is a her/me thing. Gender stereotyping is not 2 cents, it is worthless and offensive to those to whom it does not apply. 

The personal aspects of Nora's comment was very helpful though - hey make sure your wife is happy (amazing how many people miss this aspect of their sex life).


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Are you kidding me? Norajane has basically lumped all men in one group and then further simplifies it further by suggesting us simple men only care about sex. My wife would not mind a smack on the ass as long as not hard and especially with a nice smile. But I am done with that until she wakes up and realizes I need to be wanted too. I remember what it is like to be wanted and I miss it. I am human.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrsOldNews

norajane said:


> This, yes. Intimacy is a combination of emotional, intellectual and physical intimacy. For some, there is also a shared spiritual intimacy.
> 
> If we lose the emotional and intellectual connection, sex becomes only about relieving a physical need (mechanical, physical only). And then when a man only notices the bad sex life and focus on having sex sex sex, a woman can become resentful because it seems that's the only kind of intimacy her man "cares" about...that's the kind he wants to "fix".
> 
> How many threads are started with "my wife won't have sex with me"? How many are started by men with "my wife and I have drifted apart and are not connecting on an emotional level" or "we don't seem to have much to talk about anymore" or "we don't seem to share excitement about our future together?" or "we have not learned how to argue productively and are constantly bickering and nagging each other"?
> 
> That speaks volumes to me - it says men only see a problem if they aren't having sex as often as they want to. Everything else can go to hell in the relationship, but dammit, sex is the only thing they care enough to put effort into fixing it.
> 
> I don't feel long-term physical passion for a man unless he and I are in sync emotionally and intellectually, too. If that's broken, he can call me LD or whatever, but the truth is, I'm not into him in other ways and am not connecting with him in other ways LONG BEFORE I lose interest in having sex with him. He just never noticed or listened to me saying so before - not until the sex dried up. THEN, we have a "problem", by his definition.
> 
> My two cents.


I couldn't agree more with this entire statement


----------



## Enchantment

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Been looking around on here lately and it appears my wife and I are at a crossroads yet again. We love each other and have two small children. Yet it alway seems we have a conflict either a big one or something so small I do not know what it is. My wife is always wanting to "fix" our problem for good which she sees as communication.
> I don't think it is communication at all she just does not like some of my answers. Seriously when we have a serious talk she almost starts to cross examine my responses and almost get me to answer a certain way. The big problem we have is really just the classic one: I want and need more sex. She wants more communication and closeness. But here is the kicker I can give her all the closeness and communication to the moon and back but yet the sex life stays as a total back burner for her.
> We tried marriage counseling but in the end it seemed to make things worse. It was like she tested me in between each session. Now before anyone says well I need to help her more around the house etc. trust me I more than pull my share. On the flip side if you say I need to Man-up etc. I have tried that too. Once in counseling she even admitted that she does not know what gets her in the mood I even joked it is like Green Eggs and Ham. We all had a laugh and she agreed.
> Lately I have just kind of given up cause tired of being the one that in charge of getting her in the mood only to be shot down 90% of the time. She says she is still in love with me and finds me attractive but never ever says anything sexy to me. Never really compliments me much at -- I did not even notice this for like the first 10 years cause not that big of deal to me but now it makes me resentful to tell her how beautiful she is etc. when I never hear anything back. So anyway we are in a three week no sex slump and I have not said a word about sex nor flirted or anything. After kids go to bed she is happy to look at FB, Pinterest or watch TV. Feel like I have another sister.
> 
> Not sure what I should do - she thinks we need to go back to counseling and work on communicating more as if she could just change me into the perfect clone of what she wants then life would be fine. For now I am just going to be that clone I guess but will not cannot show her any real husband type affection cause then I feel used.
> 
> Any ideas?


Hi veryconfused ~

I think you are asking the wrong ladies the question. By that I mean, none of us can tell you what it is that your wife really wants - only she can. I can tell you what I want, but that's totally irrelevant to you because not all women are the same. 

And, you have already been given the answer by your wife, but it may not be the one you wanted to hear or to work at. And like all things that are worthwhile in life, it often requires a lot of work and effort to get where we would like to be.

I think that is what is so hard for so many. We want things to be easy and tidy. We want our spouse to feel just like us and not have to work through the issues. If you've (both of you) let the marriage just skate along without trying to attend to it and each other, it becomes overcome with ferocious weeds choking out your bountiful harvest.

How willing are you to work at your marriage, veryconfused? From your responses I cannot tell - you come asking for advice but admit that you aren't willing to accommodate your wife with affection.

If you've truly given up, then you need to go talk to your wife and be very honest with her and let her know.

Otherwise, you need to "gird your loins and screw your courage to the sticking point" - bite the bullet and make a last ditch effort to work through your issues. And that may mean returning to MC with a different spirit and attitude, that may mean being willing to forgive and let go of your resentments, it may mean that you need to work more consistently at not only communicating with your wife by listening to her, but to also communicate with your wife about what is important to YOU.

Communication is a two-way street...you can learn to speak her language and let her know what is important to you. If you really want to.

Best wishes.


----------



## that_girl

^^^ Dude. Werd.up.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Enchantment -

I agree with your comments. But the reason I came here was because it seems like my wife and I have gone round and round with this. And MC was really not helpful at all. Oh we worked on her issues a lot -- but we just could not improve in this area. And while in counseling it felt like I was constantly on the 2nd date and being tested all the time. And she was flat out refusing to be affectionate at all. It was so very frustrating and strange. 

The MC said this is a classic chicken and egg thing for us who knows what came first but we would work on her issues etc. but somehow this rooster never got to the hen. Oh well thanks to you all. Even NoraJane and her measly two cents:smthumbup:


----------



## Enchantment

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Enchantment -
> 
> I agree with your comments. But the reason I came here was because it seems like my wife and I have gone round and round with this. And MC was really not helpful at all. Oh we worked on her issues a lot -- but we just could not improve in this area. And while in counseling it felt like I was constantly on the 2nd date and being tested all the time. And she was flat out refusing to be affectionate at all. It was so very frustrating and strange.
> 
> The MC said this is a classic chicken and egg thing for us who knows what came first but we would work on her issues etc. but somehow this rooster never got to the hen. Oh well thanks to you all. Even NoraJane and her measly two cents:smthumbup:


So, can you give us more of your history and story?

Was she really sexual at one point, like in the beginning when the hormones are a-swinging, and then it deterioriated?

What is her general demeanour llike with you overall? Is she happy/cheerful/grumpy/sneezy/dopey? ( just seeing if you're awake!)

Does she have any history of abuse? What was her previous sexual experience like?

What kind of a household did she grow up in?

The thing with the chicken and egg that you mention (and I think the chicken came first btw ) is that someone has to be willing to break the stalemate.

Now, with that said, your wife must also be willing to reciprocate to work at things as well. You BOTH have to be willing to give. If she is not, then yes - you may have to be willing to draw the line in the sand, and you'll have to think about what that line really is for you and how far you are willing to go.

You ever considered IC for yourself? I just think it's hard on people when they feel like they are constantly rejected by their spouse - takes a blow to their self-esteem. Might be beneficial to work with someone that you could vent freely to who could help you work through those kinds of feelings and you might be able to see a very clear path ahead of things that you need to do.

Best wishes.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Well we are in late 30s I am a few years older. Been married for almost 14 years. We had ok sex before marriage but it was not a concern because I thought once we had our own place it would get better. Guess it did slightly but then declined. She tells me she needs to feel more connected to what sex but also admits that does not ways work either. I see how important that is to her and worked in it but then nothing this was during MC a few years ago. It was so odd it was like we were stuck on a date and she was just not feeling into it I guess. Man that just made me try harder and MC finally said well what is he supposed to do and then used chicken egg metaphor. Lately when we talked she said that she is just not the flirtatious type but that If she is in the mood she will respond to me. That has led to too much rejection. But when we do have sex it is great we really have fun. I think in her mind that is what she wants. Me always in a good mood and engaged with her. And then maybe we will have more sex. But it has never worked out that way. Here are a list of normal husband type things I do but she has never ever done. A flirtatious text, flowers for no reason and often, little presents, big presents, telling her she is beautiful etc. She has never ever given me a compliment about my appearance unless prodded. I did not notice that for the first ten years cause I don't care about that too much until I reflected that she never ever does it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Toffer

"She was perfectly happy and not thinking anything was wrong with me or our relationship. Her problem was that she did not understand sex as an emotional connection - it is just sex, which is exhausting. She took a long time and 3rd party verification (she read sex starved marriage, she wouldn't take my word for it because I was just trying to get sex). She finally understands there is an emotional aspect. She is "trying" to be better"

This hit the nail right on the head as far as I'm concerned in my relationship. I also want to echo Veryconfusedhusband's comment about wanting to be wanted. 

Norajanes comments are stilted from a women's point of view (as I know mine are from a man's point of view) but nonetheless, they do come off a bit biased.

I have done many of the things here others suggest with no more permanent solution. I've talked and even said I desired to be with her at an increased level and she also told me that (as a number of ladies here have said) she needs to feel connected to me to do that. I said fine, what do you need me to do to make you feel we are more connected? I did what she told me and she agreed I was doing them and ...back to the norm!

I often get mixed signals from her too. Case in point, on Valentines day (we had gone out and celebrated the weekend before at a nice resturant) she presented me with an envelope with the words "For your eyes only" on it. Inside was a very sexy pair of undies! Needless to say, I was thrilled. So, you may ask what happened that night? Nothing. And nothing for the next ten nights (and nothing happened over the weekend we went out for dinner either)

This type of event isn't completely uncommon. She's thrown comments at me like "You're going get lucky tonight because you did X for me this week" and then....Nothing. Can you see how this all adds up over 26+ years?


----------



## GreenEyes

Well Veryconfused has known from the beginning that his wife wasn't very sexual, it's not like she was wanting to do it all the time then stopped all of a sudden, so basically she is being who she's always been, but it's just now bothering him.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Maybe it's a matter of power and control. Women, or perhaps American women are more or less trained from birth to hold all the power in a relationship and this is largely the case until they're 25 or so when the power starts to swing in the other direction. It's the dark side of the fairy tale myth - that everything will always be wonderful with Prince Charming....because Cinderella will keep his balls in a jar on the mantle and sex is more of an abstraction. But who wants to give that power up? Who wants to get demoted? So the wife decides the only way she can regain her place, maintain her power is in a negative way. Say "NO". Better to be an unloved tyrant with all the power and none of the accountability than it is to be a peer, or worse, second fiddle to a mere man. 

All the chatter about feelings and communication and the 10 million ineffable things we sort of are programmed to accept is the foundation of women's sexuality are a strategic negotiation around that urge to keep the power and keep the status while giving up as little as possible in exchange while at the same time having as little actual responsibility and accountability for any outcome. So you have a few options. You can stall for time, which won't work because your mate is already doing that. You can barter in bad faith and hope for the best. Or you can completely give in because as we intuit, the last thing a control freak wants is actual control. They want power w.o. any of the attendant responsibilities. So if you dump it 100% back in their lap they don't know what to do with it.


----------



## GreenEyes

Runs like Dog said:


> Maybe it's a matter of power and control. Women, or perhaps American women are more or less trained from birth to hold all the power in a relationship and this is largely the case until they're 25 or so when the power starts to swing in the other direction. It's the dark side of the fairy tale myth - that everything will always be wonderful with Prince Charming....because Cinderella will keep his balls in a jar on the mantle and sex is more of an abstraction. But who wants to give that power up? Who wants to get demoted? So the wife decides the only way she can regain her place, maintain her power is in a negative way. Say "NO". Better to be an unloved tyrant with all the power and none of the accountability than it is to be a peer, or worse, second fiddle to a mere man.
> 
> All the chatter about feelings and communication and the 10 million ineffable things we sort of are programmed to accept is the foundation of women's sexuality are a strategic negotiation around that urge to keep the power and keep the status while giving up as little as possible in exchange while at the same time having as little actual responsibility and accountability for any outcome. So you have a few options. You can stall for time, which won't work because your mate is already doing that. You can barter in bad faith and hope for the best. Or you can completely give in because as we intuit, the last thing a control freak wants is actual control. They want power w.o. any of the attendant responsibilities. So if you dump it 100% back in their lap they don't know what to do with it.


That's not women bashing at all....of course I'm sure the men on this thread will find this to be a very acceptable answer....


----------



## Runs like Dog

I didn't say all women are this or that. I'm pointing out that if your individual relationship is in fact dysfunctional then this might be one reason why. There's usually some reason why a woman (or a man) is deeply, pathologically withholding that has little or nothing at all to do with their endless interior monologues we assume have something to do with self doubt. Maybe it's not self doubt, maybe it's greed or fear or something far darker than the quick Dr. Phil view of it. After all, being a martyr is what we call having a martyr complex. It's a series of behaviors where the person consciously acts against their own interest and against the interest of their relationship for some vague gain that's hard to explain. So how do you explain it?


----------



## okeydokie

GreenEyes said:


> That's not women bashing at all....of course I'm sure the men on this thread will find this to be a very acceptable answer....


some of it i do agree with, but isnt there man bashing in your post? i mean really, cant you resist


----------



## GreenEyes

Runs like Dog said:


> I didn't say all women are this or that. I'm pointing out that if your individual relationship is in fact dysfunctional then this might be one reason why. There's usually some reason why a woman (or a man) is deeply, pathologically withholding that has little or nothing at all to do with their endless interior monologues we assume have something to do with self doubt. Maybe it's not self doubt, maybe it's greed or fear or something far darker than the quick Dr. Phil view of it. After all, being a martyr is what we call having a martyr complex. It's a series of behaviors where the person consciously acts against their own interest and against the interest of their relationship for some vague gain that's hard to explain. So how do you explain it?


Well considering she was never a very sexual person, in OP's description, I would say that's just who she is.....some people are raring to go all the time, some a few times a week and some hardly ever, and there's no reason for it except that's who they are, that's their personal drive...I am thinking that there is no big reason here behind it except that...

And I just pointed yours out because it sounded like the flip side of norajane's comment and the guys jumped on her for hers....sorry nothing personal


----------



## GreenEyes

okeydokie said:


> some of it i do agree with, but isnt there man bashing in your post? i mean really, cant you resist


Where do I man bash??? LOL ***Oh yeah in the beginning lol, the only reason that I posted that comment about Runs like Dogs comment is because the OP and another dude jumped all over norajane for her comment and I really didn't think hers was horrible or anything, just an opinion, which is what all this is right?


----------



## okeydokie

"of course I'm sure the men on this thread will find this to be a very acceptable answer"

hello?


----------



## GreenEyes

okeydokie said:


> "of course I'm sure the men on this thread will find this to be a very acceptable answer"
> 
> hello?


Yeah that's not man bashing, that's the truth, I don't see the OP or that other guy jumping all over Run like Dogs comment and telling him to "keep his two cents" like they did to norajane....


----------



## okeydokie

his comments are 10 minutes old


----------



## GreenEyes

okeydokie said:


> his comments are 10 minutes old


They still wouldn't have said anything about his comment like they did norajane's i guarantee it....his comments were sticking up for men putting the blame on women, and the way those two answer the women's advice/critiques I know they would not have disagreed with Runs like Dogs take on it....


----------



## Runs like Dog

GreenEyes said:


> Well considering she was never a very sexual person, in OP's description, I would say that's just who she is.....some people are raring to go all the time, some a few times a week and some hardly ever,...


I have to wonder about that dynamic though. Not very sexual or not ever sexual or not generally something or other is a behavior. I have learned to seriously question the motives of people who ignore their own behavior fake it for a while in order to pull someone in and embark on a lifelong relationship with another person where they must know on some level that they're being fundamentally deceitful. To me it's evidence of a kind of monstrous self interest where they truly do not consider anyone else's feelings let alone the consequences of their own actions. The defense of "Pity poor me, I'm complicated!!!" doesn't wash.


----------



## okeydokie

GreenEyes said:


> They still wouldn't have said anything about his comment like they did norajane's i guarantee it....his comments were sticking up for men putting the blame on women, and the way those two answer the women's advice/critiques I know they would not have disagreed with Runs like Dogs take on it....


your ability to anticipate all of the male posters feelings is amazing.


----------



## GreenEyes

Runs like Dog said:


> I have to wonder about that dynamic though. Not very sexual or not ever sexual or not generally something or other is a behavior. I have learned to seriously question the motives of people who ignore their own behavior fake it for a while in order to pull someone in and embark on a lifelong relationship with another person where they must know on some level that they're being fundamentally deceitful. To me it's evidence of a kind of monstrous self interest where they truly do not consider anyone else's feelings let alone the consequences of their own actions. The defense of "Pity poor me, I'm complicated!!!" doesn't wash.


But he said she never really was like that and he thought it would change after they got married, or moved in together, I forget, anyway so before he progressed the relationship to moving in together/getting married, he already knew that she wasn't a rabbit in the sack....she didn't do anything to pull him in according to him, he knew it and it just didn't bother him til now...


----------



## GreenEyes

okeydokie said:


> your ability to anticipate all of the male posters feelings is amazing.


Call it as I see it  Men aren't that hard to figure out...


----------



## okeydokie

GreenEyes said:


> Call it as I see it  Men aren't that hard to figure out...


you simply cant resist can you


----------



## Kricket

Toffer said:


> " I often get mixed signals from her too. Case in point, on Valentines day (we had gone out and celebrated the weekend before at a nice resturant) she presented me with an envelope with the words "For your eyes only" on it. Inside was a very sexy pair of undies! Needless to say, I was thrilled. So, you may ask what happened that night? Nothing. And nothing for the next ten nights (and nothing happened over the weekend we went out for dinner either)
> 
> This type of event isn't completely uncommon. She's thrown comments at me like "You're going get lucky tonight because you did X for me this week" and then....Nothing. Can you see how this all adds up over 26+ years?


Wow, I just have to say, that is not right! 

I have on occasion given my hubby the excuse: "I don't feel like it tonight, but I promise tomorrow" and have broken that promise. I haven't done that in a few years and I hope to god that I will never do it again, because I realize just how horrible that was to him.

You really need to address what is happening between the time she makes these comments and promises to when it is time to go to bed. Maybe you need to see if there are ways to keep the momemtum going. Is it possible that something happens in between to turn her back off? Either way, it is still wrong of her to make those comments and not follow through.


----------



## Runs like Dog

GreenEyes said:


> But he said she never really was like that and he thought it would change after they got married, or moved in together, I forget, anyway so before he progressed the relationship to moving in together/getting married, he already knew that she wasn't a rabbit in the sack....she didn't do anything to pull him in according to him, he knew it and it just didn't bother him til now...


He is sailing in his little boat on her river Nile. Been there done that. Chalk it up to immaturity and a lack of experience with women.


----------



## GreenEyes

okeydokie said:


> you simply cant resist can you


I can't lol It's all in fun no offense meant


----------



## SprucHub

Sorry to hijack the thread, but the OP is so similar to me, I may as well have written it (except for the MC).

Toffer - that V'Day story is crazy. How long has it been since you've explained to your wife it is an emotional thing, not just sex, but wanting to be intimate and desired? 

For us, it has only been 3-4 months (after a 10 year marriage - I finally woke up to her neglect about a year ago - 4 pregnancies and children break up the picture, so it wasn't quite clear). She says, she is "trying" and takes offense and becomes defensive if I indicate in any way that her effort is not enough (me hoping that she would stay up for about an hour to wait until I got home from work, the day after I won V-Day with a romantic surprise, was an "unreasonable expectation"). Her "trying" basically comprises hugging and kissing occasionally (which is more than the never that I was living with). Her effort re the marriage is maybe 10% of my effort (we are 60/40 on effort for the family). Her trying, includes waking up and not saying good morning and running to her computer or going for a run. 

I hate reading simplyamorous's posts, I do not know if she is giving me false hope that something will click. Worst part is, I know there are women out there (specific women) who would kill to be in her shoes.


----------



## GreenEyes

Toffer said:


> "She was perfectly happy and not thinking anything was wrong with me or our relationship. Her problem was that she did not understand sex as an emotional connection - it is just sex, which is exhausting. She took a long time and 3rd party verification (she read sex starved marriage, she wouldn't take my word for it because I was just trying to get sex). She finally understands there is an emotional aspect. She is "trying" to be better"
> 
> This hit the nail right on the head as far as I'm concerned in my relationship. I also want to echo Veryconfusedhusband's comment about wanting to be wanted.
> 
> Norajanes comments are stilted from a women's point of view (as I know mine are from a man's point of view) but nonetheless, they do come off a bit biased.
> 
> I have done many of the things here others suggest with no more permanent solution. I've talked and even said I desired to be with her at an increased level and she also told me that (as a number of ladies here have said) she needs to feel connected to me to do that. I said fine, what do you need me to do to make you feel we are more connected? I did what she told me and she agreed I was doing them and ...back to the norm!
> 
> *I often get mixed signals from her too. Case in point, on Valentines day (we had gone out and celebrated the weekend before at a nice resturant) she presented me with an envelope with the words "For your eyes only" on it. Inside was a very sexy pair of undies! Needless to say, I was thrilled. So, you may ask what happened that night? Nothing. And nothing for the next ten nights (and nothing happened over the weekend we went out for dinner either)*
> 
> This type of event isn't completely uncommon. She's thrown comments at me like "You're going get lucky tonight because you did X for me this week" and then....Nothing. Can you see how this all adds up over 26+ years?


I gotta admit that's pretty messed up....there is no way that I would do that to my H cuz that's just mean....There have been occasions where I tell him you'll get this tonight because you did this and then by the time we get to bed I pass out haha, but I make it up to him...


----------



## Toffer

OK, I will weigh in from a man's perspective on Runs Like Dogs comment.

Yes, I too felt it was along the same lines as normajanes (seemed to come off a bit as a bashing but as in the case of normajanes, it did also contain some very good points and thoughts.

SprucHub, my wife and I have talked about this last probably around the beginning of the year. Things markedly improved for a week or two (actually had a week where we had sex a whopping (hold on to your hats) 3 times! I've also given her articles to read that i have found but I think she see's all of this as a bit humorous and a simple attempt just to get more of the physical aspect of sex and ignoring the emotional part of the act.

However, I find her almost perfect in every other way. She cares for me and our kids deeply and does so much for us. I try to recipricate as much as possible (remember we usually only see each other for about 3 hours a day in the evening) because I like to make her feel appreciated because she is. 

GreenEyes, I don't think she really does these things intentionally where she basically promises and then nothing. On occasion, the mood continues to go on and then she decides to have a glass of wine or two (usually no more than 2) and the next thing you know, she's drifting off on the couch with me. If I made the effort to rouse her, she would respond and enjoy the activities as much as I do but again, it gets a little old after a while and it doesn't make me feel like she wants me. It makes me feel like I'm simply reaching out to her for a source of an outlet. Hell, I can turn on the PC and get porn for that!

So Kricket, nothing changes to turn her off or dampen the momentun. I just think it's simply an issue of what is important to her and what's important to me even though I've told her this is an important issue for me.


----------



## SprucHub

I think Toffer is not a real person, but rather someone who is spying on my life and reading my mind, then relaying my story as his own. How rude!

On a serious note, the books/articles I've read indicate many women do not get turned on until after things have started - which seems to be what Toffer and I and others notice. Actually, my W enjoys sex more than I do when we do it - it seems. But this dynamic of not being turned on until it starts, makes it difficult for me to appreciate that there is desire for me there - as opposed to her being turned on because I am playing with her (if she was blindfolded and a neighbor touched her the same way, she'd likely be equally as turned on). Is this a break through? Maybe my wife really doesn't have the emotional connection and views sex as just sex. In that case, she'd really need to be in the mood for it rather than wanting it for emotional fulfillment; like foie gras or gardening.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

SprucHub said:


> I think Toffer is not a real person, but rather someone who is spying on my life and reading my mind, then relaying my story as his own. How rude!
> 
> On a serious note, the books/articles I've read indicate many women do not get turned on until after things have started - which seems to be what Toffer and I and others notice. Actually, my W enjoys sex more than I do when we do it - it seems. But this dynamic of not being turned on until it starts, makes it difficult for me to appreciate that there is desire for me there - as opposed to her being turned on because I am playing with her (if she was blindfolded and a neighbor touched her the same way, she'd likely be equally as turned on). Is this a break through? Maybe my wife really doesn't have the emotional connection and views sex as just sex. In that case, she'd really need to be in the mood for it rather than wanting it for emotional fulfillment; like foie gras or gardening.


As I understand it (and I am sure that the women will correct me if I am wrong), a woman often needs to feel that emotional connection before she will put herself in a position to be turned on. That is, if there is not connection, she won't allow you to get close enough to do things necessary to turn her on. 

My wife is usually agnositic to having sex on a given day. But she is usually open to letting me getting her going. A good part of that is being connected in other ways, so that she feels good about where we are as a couple and about me in general. So while she may not look at me and immediately want to jump me, she is willing to let me work her up to get there.


----------



## Toffer

SprucHub, maybe we're twins seperated at birth? Noticed you're from NY. I work in NYC and live in NJ. A bit too weird. maybe it's the region (nature vs nuture?)

I know my wife has told me that there are different things that "turn her on" and "get her in the mood" and they include such mundane tasks as me cleaning up the dinner dishes, making coffee for her on the weekends and bringing it to her and things like that.

We also try and spend some time together each night holding hands and sitting next to each other even if it's only for an hour or two in front of the TV. It's all good but I need more! 

Just for laughs, I'll site one more example. She wanted us to get a new fridge fro the kitchen just after the holidays and move the old one to the garage for "over flow". Finally found the one we wanted and bought it. She was very happy about this since she new spending this type of money just after Christmas was a liitle bit of a budget stretcher and said something to the affect that I was going to get "new fridge sex" that night (it was a Friday night) during the card ride home from buying it. 

However, before we got home, a friend of hers called inviting us to meet them for dinner. I guess I foolishly left the answer up to her and she even mentioned we shouldn't because of the money we just spent but she agreed. Guess I was hoping she'd just want to get me home and jump my bones!

Regardless, we had a good time with this other couple and I had one margrita (wanted to keep my wits about me because this place makes em strong) and she had two.....guess you see where this is going.

By the time we got home a little after 9, she was falling asleep on the couch again and the whole thought of "fridge sex" somehow went away. I just told her to go to bed and I'd be in shortly. I didn't even try to get her going because while I wasn't rejected outright, I wasn't feeling like she really wanted me. It almost felt like that by telling me she'd have sex with me for buying her the new fridge (romantic gift, right?) she was "paying" me for it. That's not the way the original comment was made though. It was truly made in a very loving and sexy way but as it all falls apart in front of you, your mind does crazy stuff.

It's like you said, it's all about wanting to be desired by the person you've pledged to be with your entire life. Don't get me wrong, there are times when just the act feels like it's enough but that only lasts for so long.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

So anyhow we did have a talk last night and I guess it helped to open the dialogue more. As I stated earlier it is the classic not feeling connected emotionally thus not attracted. I do indersrand that and respect it but still leaves us stuck because when I do not get that physical connection I am not as tuned into how I act or speak. I am not a jerk but it just feels like friends which is so tough for me. Of course the clearest path appears to be working in that emotional connection and then the physical should improve but as I stated before that has not really played out that way before. So she feels frustrated with me as she is seeing the MC without me. I just can't go because it proved so poorly last time. If I thought would help I would go. You see last time I really focused on things and even the counselor pointed out how thus was clearly a change but my wife never warmed up. She told me well it is great but I dont trust it. That went in for several months and I never got more of the physical connection.....yes sex and all that goes with that. You see where I am stuck? Of course I will do my best to be a good husband and partner but dam it is hard when I know she does not think of me the same way I think of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Toffer

Veryconfused, I know what you mean.

However, by not going to MC with her, you are adding fuel to her fire about. You said "She told me well it is great but I dont trust it."

Perhaps a comprise might be to try a different counselor you both agree on? If one of you is not comfortable with the counselor, you should keep looking until you find someoen you both like.

You may want to explore IC on your own too. At least that way your wife can see that you're serious about trying to be a better person and in the end of all of this, the only one you can truly change is yourself.

I've come to this realization too but at 50 years old, seeing as how my wife is pretty perfect in all other ways, I am not yet ready to call it quits! Every now and then there's a spark, a glimmer of hope that keeps me holding on. Perhaps I'm grasping at straws and eventually this issue will come to a crashing thunderhead and will result in hurt feelings but I know that it will have to work itself out one way or another


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

No the MC was fine. My wife said our improvement was great but she did not trust it. That went In for months it really felt like I was on a constant 2nd date. She never came around I felt like a fool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Toffer

I understand but being where you are now, after trying for a few months haven't you proven to your wife that she was right not to trust the changes?

Don't get me wrong, I've been on the same side of broken promises when it comes to affection so I know what you mean but again, the only person you can improve is you.

Perhaps you might want to consider where you'll be in a year or two if this keeps up. Would you see yourself possibly divorcing over this issue? If so, the best course of action for you would be to improve yourself for your next relation(s).


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

That was almost two years ago and my point was she never came around. And since then yes I suppose I have regressed some but what can a guy do? We are stuck but I love her. Just not sure what is the best path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Halien

veryconfusedhusband said:


> So anyhow we did have a talk last night and I guess it helped to open the dialogue more. As I stated earlier it is the classic not feeling connected emotionally thus not attracted. I do indersrand that and respect it but still leaves us stuck because when I do not get that physical connection I am not as tuned into how I act or speak. I am not a jerk but it just feels like friends which is so tough for me. Of course the clearest path appears to be working in that emotional connection and then the physical should improve but as I stated before that has not really played out that way before. So she feels frustrated with me as she is seeing the MC without me. I just can't go because it proved so poorly last time. If I thought would help I would go. You see last time I really focused on things and even the counselor pointed out how thus was clearly a change but my wife never warmed up. She told me well it is great but I dont trust it. That went in for several months and I never got more of the physical connection.....yes sex and all that goes with that. You see where I am stuck? Of course I will do my best to be a good husband and partner but dam it is hard when I know she does not think of me the same way I think of her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From the outset, I'd like to say that my comments are not aimed at the men on this thread, but are aimed instead on some basic paradigms that seem to exist on this site.

Prior to last year, I had never seen a site that discussed marital issues. Culturally, since both of my grandmothers were from a native american people who were loosely aligned to the Cherokee, and I lived with one grandmother off and on through childhood, most of my healthy views of marriage came through this culture. Among her people, your beliefs shaped your heritage, and it wasn't shaped by the percentage of her tribe's blood in your veins. The difference, maybe subtle, was that sexuality was a natural part of a person from the early days, and not just something that decended on you in the middle teenage years. Just saying that differences in the way a person perceived sexuality was as naturally different as other parts of your personality. And the way that it was expressed in a relationship was different.

My point is that when we encounter problems like the men go through in a thread like this, it may not be as simple as some of the arguments back and forth try to make it. Its not fair to lump certain women in a low sex drive category, because it may include a category where women haven't really understood their sexuality well enough to convey it to their partner. Maybe it can be helpful to really look into the paradigms we brought into in marriage instead, at least to try to understand each other's point of view without all the frustration.

Commonly on this site, I see men who are hurt because their wife doesn't initiate sex often enough. We put it into words that declare that it should be her responsibility to make the same effort we do. Somewhere along the line, we link this to something like a cultural expectation that a woman is right if she complies to this norm, and wrong if she doesn't. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems like if I ask my wife and her friends what the cultural norm is, they will describe a completely different set of expectations. And then everyone piles a load of pride and self-respect upon making it fit into these cultural norms. So, if a wife says that she needs an emotional connection, in a sense we add that item to this checklist and try to squeeze it into the program on a daily basis.

I don't mean to demean the way that people describe the problem. We all know that a complex idea gets lost or watered down when we try to put it into words. Really, the whole point of trying to focus on this paradigm is to only bring up the point that there is a very complex set of traits that make up individual sexuality that tends to be standardized through this whole discussion. 

My grandmother's people talked about individual sexuality using spiritual terms that don't really have meaning outside of their culture. One story told is about how a warrior tried to win a woman's heart with gifts, bringing simple items, but the one who captured her heart showed her a colorful scene within a forest, because he understood that her needs were very complex, and well beyond his own. But once he showed her this, her heart was always his. The point was that her sexuality was complex, and it is only won through respecting the uniqueness of it. Maybe this part sounds like an extreme oversimplification, but when my wife and I went through marriage counseling with a native american counselor, she had no background with my beliefs, and was surprised by the frank nature of the discussions about the need to throw away assumptions about paradigms and start over with just a focus on understanding each other's sexuality. Instead of focusing completely on the sex act itself, the counselor would jokingly say that this would work itself out in a few years, but we had to understand the spirit within first. He was talking about understanding that complex combination of feelings like enticement, boldness, passion and security within our spouse that makes them really look forward to sex.

For us, though, since I was mixed heritage, I would say that the practical way that we helped my wife overcome some of her reservations about sex was through reading about the tantric principles behind tantric sex. It helped us express needs and interests more clearly, and build a good connection as a couple.

Not sure if this helps much, because I'm far from an expert. Still I think we can all benefit from examining the paradigms that we take for granted.


----------



## SprucHub

Toffer - I work in NYC too, just take the train east to get home, not west. Yeah, my W needs time together to get in the mood. And, she cannot be too tired. Sometimes we do not have that time. I always have time for her, even when she's sleeping.


----------



## dubbizle

What you do is LEAVE,if you have tried every thing and she is not really putting in then you have two choices,just put up with it or file the papers show them to her and tell her you are done.Do you think if something happens to you she will act this way towards a new man,a new guy would not put up with it so she would change real quick.

You said she is like your sister ,so just make her your friend not your wife.The big problem is people just stay in these kind of relationships and the other person knows they will not make a more,so I say make a move and if she wants you she will change quickly.


----------



## Jessie13

Don't have a clue how to tell you to fix it! Don't know how to fix it myself....I have an absolutely wonderful husband who has always done his fair share and more! I'm a nurse and he's a paramedic. We have 2 grown children and have been married for almost 28 years. Sometimes I don't know how he has put up with me over the years. I have told him in the past that if I could have ordered him from a catalog he is exactly what I would have ordered. However we have gone for extended periods of time without having sex. Not that I don't think he's one of the sexiest men alive but I just seem to be so tired and just don't care. There have been many times that I have iniated sex just to be shot down because he didn't want "charity" sex. I hate that I have made the man that I love more than my next breath fell this way. I have damaged his ego...there have been many times when I really was in the mood that he said "you better go to sleep - I'm on my side of the bed" ...there have also been many times that I have iniated things just because I love him and want to please him. It has caused hard feelings to both of us. What I would say is don't think that she doesn't love you with all that she is and don't think that she dosen't think your the sexiest man alive...some of us females are just wired a little different and sex isn't so important to us all the time. Good luck...just remember no matter who your with it's alot of work! Even if you love them more than anything in the world


----------



## Beowulf

I think the problem is that women in general seem to think that having sex should result in fireworks every time. There are different levels of sex just like there are different levels of everything. In another thread someone equated sex to food. Sometimes you get the full five course dinner complete with prime rib, scalloped potatoes, perfectly aged and chilled wine and cherries jubilee for desert. Sometimes you are too tired to go to all that trouble so you just throw together a cheese sandwich. Believe me, while most men would love the five course dinner every night, the cheese sandwich is ok too. Women need to remember that for a man sex is closeness. We can't demonstrate affection and tenderness when we constantly feel rejected. So if the OPs wife finds him attractive and is pleased with him as a husband why can't she throw a couple of cheese sandwiches his way so he doesn't starve. Maybe the closeness she's looking for will magically materialize for her if she does.


----------



## Toffer

Halien, speaking for myself, "I see men who are hurt because their wife doesn't initiate sex often enough. We put it into words that declare that it should be her responsibility to make the same effort we do." this isn't my issue. Sure, if my wife intiated more I'd be thrilled.

I think the issue for some of us is a multi-layered one. I do know that my wife needs a connection and I do what I can to foster that. However, from what I've read in recent months men need the physical aspect of sex to make the same emotional connection with our wives that they need before they want to have sex with us. Sounds a bit like the ole chicken and the egg. Good can be cruel like that sometimes!

I think the issue for a lot of us stems with not just the lack of intiation but also the rejection experienced when our advances are turned away, either directly (I have a headache) or (which seems to be the case more often in my case) indirectly (wife falls asleep after a glass of wine).

Your example of the warrior and his target of desire is interesting and does have some great points. What it doesn't illustrate is that I think that a women's complexity changes over time so it's not as simple as figuring out the complexities of a woman just once but on an ongoing basis. It seems that some men, after battling this puzzle take the direct route and ask their wives what is it they need. They are told, they do what they've been asked and yet there is either a temporary change or none at all, hence an increasing level of frustration.

SprucHub, I try to make time for my wife too, especially on the weekends. I genuinely enjoy being with her and spending time with her and she tells me the same. We'll often run errands together not because we have to but because we want to be with each other. Sounds great right? You'd think so.

Dubbizle, I was starting to go in your direction too with the OP. Since he is younger than I am and has less time invested in this marriage, he may want to consider moving on. I am not a huge believer in either divorce or staying together.

Jessie, you seem closer to my circumstances (we've been married 26 years, 3 kids (13, 18, 20)) and there have been times where I have felt the same as it sounds like your husband has (charity sex). I have to tell you it is a definite ego crusher for men. Like women, I feel that every now and then, we want to be pursued and felt like we are truly desired. I know my wife loves me and thinks I'm pretty great in many aspects and like you, she doesn't think sex is as important "all the time". It's the "all the time" comment that I take issue with. If you don't mind me asking, how often do you two manage to have sex weekly/monthly? 

I know being in a maariage is a lot of constant work and I'm more than willing to do the work but I think the issue is What the Hell is the Work we're Supposed to Be Doing???

Beowulf, while I enjoyed your point of view (and now I want a grilled cheese sandwich for lunch today!) it's not completely applicable to my case but I don't disagree with it!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Toffer said:


> I think the issue for a lot of us stems with not just the lack of intiation but also the rejection experienced when our advances are turned away, either directly (I have a headache) or (which seems to be the case more often in my case) indirectly (wife falls asleep after a glass of wine).


Why do you assume that she intentionally rejects you when she falls asleep after a glass of wine or a couple of margaritas? 



> Jessie, you seem closer to my circumstances (we've been married 26 years, 3 kids (13, 18, 20)) and there have been times where I have felt the same as it sounds like your husband has (charity sex). I have to tell you it is a definite ego crusher for men. Like women, I feel that every now and then, we want to be pursued and felt like we are truly desired. I know my wife loves me and thinks I'm pretty great in many aspects and like you, she doesn't think sex is as important "all the time". It's the "all the time" comment that I take issue with. If you don't mind me asking, how often do you two manage to have sex weekly/monthly?


I want to give a different perspective on the "charity sex". I am in a different place, as our sex life is pretty good, but I do get it a 3-4 times a month. My wife is not really feeling it, but she knows it is important to me and to us. To me, that is a gift from her to show her love for me. She is giving me something when, at least physically, she is not getting much from it. Think of it like the time you skipped the big game to do something important with your wife. It is a sign of love. 

I will also say that about half time she offers the "charity sex" she ends up getting into it as much or more than I am. That will also often lead to her initiating in the next couple of days. Her making herself available is a chance for me to turn her on.

Things were not always great with my wife, and I do understand how the pity sex can wreck havoc on the desire. I just want you to remember that once you get things going, don't automatically rejected those offers if you see them coming from a good place in her.


----------



## Halien

Toffer said:


> Halien, speaking for myself, "I see men who are hurt because their wife doesn't initiate sex often enough. We put it into words that declare that it should be her responsibility to make the same effort we do." this isn't my issue. Sure, if my wife intiated more I'd be thrilled.
> 
> I think the issue for some of us is a multi-layered one. I do know that my wife needs a connection and I do what I can to foster that. However, from what I've read in recent months men need the physical aspect of sex to make the same emotional connection with our wives that they need before they want to have sex with us. Sounds a bit like the ole chicken and the egg. Good can be cruel like that sometimes!
> 
> I think the issue for a lot of us stems with not just the lack of intiation but also the rejection experienced when our advances are turned away, either directly (I have a headache) or (which seems to be the case more often in my case) indirectly (wife falls asleep after a glass of wine).
> 
> Your example of the warrior and his target of desire is interesting and does have some great points. What it doesn't illustrate is that I think that a women's complexity changes over time so it's not as simple as figuring out the complexities of a woman just once but on an ongoing basis. It seems that some men, after battling this puzzle take the direct route and ask their wives what is it they need. They are told, they do what they've been asked and yet there is either a temporary change or none at all, hence an increasing level of frustration.


I certainly understand your points, Toffer. What I was really trying to get at is saying yes, the situation is very troubling, and can make a guy very angry, but how does this paradigm actually fix the problem in the case where a man is not ready to divorce over it? 

Understand that I mean this with much respect for the men in this thread, but is it really likely that she wouldn't want an intimacy that makes her feel the same as she did when she was dating you? Or, if she no longer wants it, is it possible that she just lost hope that she could make it happen within herself?

When she was dating, there was this hard to describe feeling that made her want to have her husband's hands all over her. When she felt this feeling, sex was natural, because it was the fuel of her desire. We westerners tend to try to conceptualize it in terms like the ingredients of making a great meal. "I'll give her more time out of my schedule, and she will want sex." What it really is, however, is trying to understand her sexuality, and what triggers those feelings within her. 

What I'm saying is that the sex shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be this complex, hard to describe feeling within her. With my wife, what triggers that feeling is that she perceives that everything else in my life becomes invisible to me when she enters the room. That I can't get enough of her. It took time for her to learn to search for that same thing within me, since it is much simpler to evoke in a man. When it comes to something that actually fixes the problem, does anger and resentment guilt her into experiencing this feeling?

Its just an opinion, but I think that through whatever means that impact her, she begins to lose this connection to her desire, and can't seem to recover it. Eventually, maybe she even becomes jaded, thinking that real intimacy is not even possible. My only point was to suggest throwing out the paradigms of blame and responsibility, and look at it differently. I couldn't stand the fact that my dad was the type of character who enjoyed awakening this in married women, so he broke quite a few relationships.

SimplyAmorous has mentioned an example of how she overcame certain assumptions and paradigms that she once believed, and freed herself from them. In these cases, continuing to try to bring in hurt, anger and her sense of responsibility practically isn't solving anything. Maybe I'm naive, but I think that if a man becomes passionate about helping her unlock this hard to describe feeling, making it the goal, she'll be smart enough to see that the physical act of sex is no longer his main goal. He wants her to reach a place where she feels something that is larger than life. If you put aside the paradigms and make her happiness the goal for a significant time, by making it clear that this is what is changing, you've done all you can do. 

Again, its just food for thought. I admit that I tend to be the alpha sort, so the fact that I'm usually pursuing my wife, in a sense, just doesn't bother me because we both are getting what we want. We usually are at about two to three times a week, not counting weekends.


----------



## Enchantment

veryconfusedhusband said:


> That was almost two years ago and my point was she never came around. And since then yes I suppose I have regressed some but what can a guy do? We are stuck but I love her. Just not sure what is the best path.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi veryconfused ~

I went out and read through your other threads. Your thread on your counseling from a couple years ago was very informative and helped to give a better picture of your marital situation.

You admitted in the other thread that you have had a habit with your wife of becoming uncommunicative and sulking when she would refuse you. And that you both went to MC a couple of years ago, but you didn't see the change you wanted to see, you dropped the counseling and you admit that you have regressed in to some of your old patterns. I think you mentioned here that she is continuing with the counseling on her own?

Have you considered going to a counselor on your own? If not, why not?

I know that you may see the issue of lack of sex as being her issue. But a marriage is a dynamic - it is both people's issue. But we have to take responsibility for the part that we may be bringing to it. Are you willing to take responsibility for the part that you are bringing? If not, why not?

And when you said that you have regressed, what patterns and behaviours have you reverted back to? I know that you are discouraged because you did not see what you felt was positive progress fast enough on your wife's part, but it is also possible that she is discouraged because she also has not seen positive sustainable progress on yours. Just something to consider.

Best wishes.


----------



## Complexity

On the point of giving out compliments, I completely agree with the OP. Why do wives almost never say anything complimentary other than " I love you" to their men?


----------



## GreenEyes

Complexity said:


> On the point of giving out compliments, I completely agree with the OP. Why do wives almost never say anything complimentary other than " I love you" to their men?


I tell my man how hot he is every single day...I can't look at him and not think it or say it....or grab his butt . But on the flip side he is not a person that gives compliments so it's rare that I get one from him...doesn't stop me from letting him know what I think though...

** As for why women may not as often as men...I think it's another one of those things that is "gender specific" (even though it shouldn't be) I think the way that women are raised, and see all over TV and movies, is that men are the complimentary ones, trying to "win" the woman....


----------



## Runs like Dog

Complexity said:


> On the point of giving out compliments, I completely agree with the OP. Why do wives almost never say anything complimentary other than " I love you" to their men?



Dunno, how do YOU treat the hired help?


----------



## Complexity

GreenEyes said:


> I tell my man how hot he is every single day...I can't look at him and not think it or say it....or grab his butt . But on the flip side he is not a person that gives compliments so it's rare that I get one from him...doesn't stop me from letting him know what I think though...
> 
> ** As for why women may not as often as men...I think it's another one of those things that is "gender specific" (even though it shouldn't be) I think the way that women are raised, and see all over TV and movies, is that men are the complimentary ones, trying to "win" the woman....


Well your husband is very lucky. For some reason she would tell everyone expect for me how supposedly attractive I am.  
Not that I think I'm all that, but guys like their egos to be stroked from time to time 

Meh, take what you can get I suppose 



Runs like Dog said:


> Dunno, how do YOU treat the hired help?


lol, good, maybe _too_ good


----------



## GreenEyes

Complexity said:


> Well your husband is very lucky. For some reason she would tell everyone expect for me how supposedly attractive I am.
> Not that I think I'm all that, but guys like their egos to be stroked from time to time


Yeah I don't know I"m very vocal anyway about everything, so complimenting him just happens haha I look at him and still see that hot guy I started dating 9 years ago and it gives me butterflies :butterfly:, I'm a sappy romantic at heart lol


----------



## Toffer

Halien, good points again. You pose some real puzzlers with what my wife may or may not want. Again, the biggest issue is that not only is she possibly wrestling with these questions, SO AM I! As I've said before, I would do almost anything for her (and not just to get more sex) because of how I feel for her. That's a seperate issue. I agree it's about understanding her sexuality and she's often told me (without prodding) what I'm doing right and what I've done wrong in the past. So you would think through observation and listening and making corrections and amplifying good behaviors that there'd be a more positive result right?

I really identified with this part of your post: "With my wife, what triggers that feeling is that she perceives that everything else in my life becomes invisible to me when she enters the room. That I can't get enough of her. It took time for her to learn to search for that same thing within me, since it is much simpler to evoke in a man"

I think that my wife and I feel very similar. We have often said we feel sorry for those couples (and we know a few) who cringe when their spouse gets home from work or has a day off when the other is at home. We've heard stories that one would think "Oh crap, he/she is home" as they pulled into their driveway and saw their spouse's car. That's not us although I do know the other family dynamics (kids, chores) do prevent us from getting to that level that you're at now.

I think if you asked my wife if she thinks I am angry or resentful over this issue, I'm pretty certain she'd say no. I don't believe I carry it with me at all (of course I could be wrong). Actually, if anything does manifest itself at times I would not call it anger or resent. More of a hurt that I can't get from her the type of response I'd like more often. It's that whole "Am I not good enough, stong enough" self doubting crap that creeps into your mind after some time. 

I can't tell you that while I may not persue it to the farthest degree you do, I have often said to my wife (in a kidding manner but completely serious) when we have a day off together and she asks waht is it I want to do, I tell her "Today is your day baby. It's all about you. What did you want to do?" I know that actually saying those words could be construed as me trying to get my way later but that has never been my intention. I truly just want her to be happy.

My wife is complimentary to me and will grab my butt (and other parts) sometimes too. Sometimes I read this as just the passing gesture it is. Other times it seems that she's in the mood and sometimes she is and sometimes she isn't. It's just very hard for me to know which case I'm dealing with at any time!


----------



## Enchantment

Complexity said:


> On the point of giving out compliments, I completely agree with the OP. Why do wives almost never say anything complimentary other than " I love you" to their men?


I think it really depends on the wife...and on the husband. If a wife never finds out that her husband needs words of affirmation from her, then what would prompt her to give out these words - especially if she herself is not a words of affirmation person?

This was a sticking point in my marriage for quite some time. I am the words of affirmation person, but my H would never say anything complimentary to me at all. 

I finally realized that since this type of expression was not intrinsic to him, he simply did not know how much it meant to me. Since enlightening him to my desires, he has made valiant efforts to be better. Initially, I think it was difficult and unnatural to him. But with time and practice, and seeing the effect it has on me, it has become much more natural to him.

Because I am a words of affirmation person, I always gave him the compliments because that is what I wanted from him. But we were missing each other for a long time until we both understood what the other truly needed and desired - and that took some honest communication with each other.

If you are a man desiring these words from your wife, why don't you let her know? There is nothing in the manufacturing spec of a woman or a wife that says "always use words to affirm and compliment your spouse". 

And as far as the OP, after reading through his threads, it seems that he could be falling into the category we refer to as 'nice guy' whereby he doesn't affirm himself (he is not self-validated) but he requires his wife to affirm him (he is other validated.) That is not a healthy dynamic to have in a relationship, and if OP can learn to validate himself, live his life the best he can, respect himself, not allow himself and his moods to be buoyed by what his wife does or does not do, lets go of the passive aggressive tendencies by quitting the silent treatments when he doesn't get what he wants, he may find himself in a much better position.


----------



## Halien

Toffer said:


> Halien, good points again. You pose some real puzzlers with what my wife may or may not want. Again, the biggest issue is that not only is she possibly wrestling with these questions, SO AM I! As I've said before, I would do almost anything for her (and not just to get more sex) because of how I feel for her. That's a seperate issue. I agree it's about understanding her sexuality and she's often told me (without prodding) what I'm doing right and what I've done wrong in the past. So you would think through observation and listening and making corrections and amplifying good behaviors that there'd be a more positive result right?


Thanks, Toffer. I hope I'm not derailing the intent of the thread here.

To me, what's really sad in relationship problems like yours is to see the heart you put into the relationship, and how your words seem to suggest that your wife is aware and saddened that the connection isn't as strong as you would both like it to be. 

Others on this site are really knowledgeable about understanding some of these relationship dynamics, so thanks for accepting my advice in the nature that it was intended - as just another guy.

To be honest, even though we seemed to have a continuously strong sex life, I felt that my wife was like some women who think that men are far more simplistic than we usually are. Very few simplistic guys, however, can sustain a strong intimate relationship through the long haul. I've been fortunate that my wife began to ask the right questions over time, even though we are still learning after 25 years.

I understand the feeling of wishing that she would be more visible in initiating, or complimenting me, or the things that speak to my love language. But then again, I'm afraid that I'm also one of those alpha guys who doesn't spend alot of time caring what other people think about me. Wow ... sounds shallow. For me, at least the questions were there, sometimes. We once had a small argument about something that I don't really even remember. During the course of it, she asked, "when have I ever even once not responded to you?" Holy crap!! - as for me, I could now care less is she isn't technically the initiator. She has her own way of initiating. Its become a part of her sexuality.

But as a parting thought, keep in mind that most of what I've posted about was only from one side of a man's interraction with our wife. Figuratively speaking, we relate to people in two ways. We have those actions where we are like a supplicant, or looking up to understand and meet her needs. I believe that over time, some women repond to the other side, though. The side where we are the pursuer, or aggressor. I'm not talking about the young guys who say, "Wanna' do it?". I'm not suggesting that you don't do this, but my wife has said that it is when I am more dominant sexually that she begins to become the initiator, too. Its the reason behind suggesting that we examine the paradigms behind the problems.

Our marriage therapist asked quite a while ago about how often she turns me down when I ask for sex. She was puzzled, because there is never any asking. We usually initiate intimacy much earlier in the day, and it just happens. It became a bit of a joke, though, where she would ask, "how come you never ask?" Funny thing was that this is her way of initiating. She's daring me to tell her that I wouldn't stoop to asking for something that was mine. In more recent years, she has learned ways of flirting, creating tension, etc, that are so different than she ever thought she would be. That sense of conflict, or me being the agressor is a very big deal for kindling the feeling of desire in my wife. I'm convinced that it only works for me because she knows that I try to set her needs above mine.


----------



## Complexity

Enchantment said:


> I think it really depends on the wife...and on the husband. If a wife never finds out that her husband needs words of affirmation from her, then what would prompt her to give out these words - especially if she herself is not a words of affirmation person?
> 
> This was a sticking point in my marriage for quite some time. I am the words of affirmation person, but my H would never say anything complimentary to me at all.
> 
> I finally realized that since this type of expression was not intrinsic to him, he simply did not know how much it meant to me. Since enlightening him to my desires, he has made valiant efforts to be better. Initially, I think it was difficult and unnatural to him. But with time and practice, and seeing the effect it has on me, it has become much more natural to him.
> 
> Because I am a words of affirmation person, I always gave him the compliments because that is what I wanted from him. But we were missing each other for a long time until we both understood what the other truly needed and desired - and that took some honest communication with each other.
> 
> If you are a man desiring these words from your wife, why don't you let her know? There is nothing in the manufacturing spec of a woman or a wife that says "always use words to affirm and compliment your spouse".
> 
> And as far as the OP, after reading through his threads, it seems that he could be falling into the category we refer to as 'nice guy' whereby he doesn't affirm himself (he is not self-validated) but he requires his wife to affirm him (he is other validated.) That is not a healthy dynamic to have in a relationship, and if OP can learn to validate himself, live his life the best he can, respect himself, not allow himself and his moods to be buoyed by what his wife does or does not do, lets go of the passive aggressive tendencies by quitting the silent treatments when he doesn't get what he wants, he may find himself in a much better position.


I think she has a lot of insecurities from previous relationships. She's a gentle soul that's been burnt a lot. I think she believes if she constantly showers me with compliments it will inflate my ego and make me think I can do better than her and so I will eventually leave her.


----------



## deejov

veryconfusedhusband said:


> So anyhow we did have a talk last night and I guess it helped to open the dialogue more. As I stated earlier it is the classic not feeling connected emotionally thus not attracted. I do indersrand that and respect it but still leaves us stuck because when I do not get that physical connection I am not as tuned into how I act or speak. I am not a jerk but it just feels like friends which is so tough for me. Of course the clearest path appears to be working in that emotional connection and then the physical should improve but as I stated before that has not really played out that way before. So she feels frustrated with me as she is seeing the MC without me. I just can't go because it proved so poorly last time. If I thought would help I would go. You see last time I really focused on things and even the counselor pointed out how thus was clearly a change but my wife never warmed up. She told me well it is great but I dont trust it. That went in for several months and I never got more of the physical connection.....yes sex and all that goes with that. You see where I am stuck? Of course I will do my best to be a good husband and partner but dam it is hard when I know she does not think of me the same way I think of her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you guys do the Emotional Needs Quiz, or read His Needs her Needs or even the Five Love Languages?

I just get an impression that you are trying hard... but not speaking the same language. Like giving her 10 blue crayons when she wants red ones, but doesn't know how to ask for it. 

women do have a need for trust before intimacy. Yeah, she could do some soul searching on her own and learn what makes her tick, so you are not guessing in the dark. Hopefully she does that.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

No I am not a Nice Guy that needs affirmation in fact I did not even notice it for years that she was not givIng me much. I am not a needy guy but if we have not had sex in weeks I do withdraw out of frustration because I just get tired if being shot down it gets so old. I don't want to go to MC because it seemed to actually make it worse like affirmation for her cause I was changing we were in counseling but I never got what I needed. My wife is wicked smart when it comes to social dynamics she is a psychologist herself and she will break down analyze and cross examine me on a three minute conversation we had earlier in the day. She remembers every last word I myself have many degrees but in the moment I don't proccesss that way. So we have a minor argument and then try to discuss it later after kids go to bed. Usually in this time it is discovered that I did not clearly hear her exact words and while my actions an words were not intentionally meant to annoy her or whatever it led to an arguement. Sometimes when I tell her well I did not realize you told him to do that she will say well I explained it to you but you ignored me. Which occurred because my focus was on my conversation with my son. So I am not really listening to her because I am feeling undermined trying to be a parent and she feels undermined because I am not following through properly with her prior instruction to my son. See we were both right in our intent but if I had listened to her words exactly I would have known that but for her she says I believe you but intent us just not enough anymore you need to listen to me. Yeah but my son was talking frantically and quickly I was focused on him. I will never ever leave and she is not giving up either after our argument last night we cuddled and watched tv. Right now it seems to that she just wants an improved me and who can blame her that is I guess what I want from her but I don't thnk it is gonna happen. Jesse I reallly appreciated your perspective but the part guys don't get us why? You say he is sexy and you love him in 30 minutes or less you could just tell him please take your time pleasure me. Yeah we want to just feel you and touch you while we listen it helps us feel good to. Oh yeah we want our cookies too but really when we have had our best sex if she orgasms first sometimes we will stop cause she can't take it anymore and I am often ok with that and will not even ask her to help me finish any other ways. I am crazy in love with her she is beautiful and smart and a great mother to our children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jessie13

Toffer I would estimate that we average about 6-8 times a month.


----------



## Jessie13

Tall Average Guy...my husband has said he wants it 2 or 3 times a day...so in his opinion or 6-8 times a month is pretty pitiful! He never says anything though and doesn't want me to feel bad. But by not telling me his feeling and me not telling him mine we just keep hurting each other. We are very good at acting as if nothing happened. I think thats why we are at the point we are now and I want to do whatever it takes to fix it...even if I have to go way outside my comfort zone and discuss problems as the occur.


----------



## Toffer

Veryconfused, your words " I do withdraw out of frustration because I just get tired if being shot down it gets so old" rang very true to me. I've gone through this myself in the past and in the end it changes nothing

It seems that you and your wife seem to ocer-analyze everything. Again, I will say that you need to find some way of coping if you want to stay in this relationship. Have you done any IC?

Sorry to disagree with you but I think that you definitely fall more into the Mr Nice Guy category (I know I do for the most part) and your wife is the more dominanat partner, especially in the bedroom.


----------



## Toffer

Jessie, sounds like your husband is still in a better position (no pun intended!) than I am. So far this year we are averaging 4 times a month.

Your husband wants it 2 - 3 times a day? I'd kill for 3 or 4 times a week! And that may even tire me out! 

Now you know how hw feels and you want to improve things, are you comfortable enough to go out of your comfort zone and maybe be with him on an increased frequency when neither of you have to worry about work or kids (like over a weekend)?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Jessie13 said:


> Tall Average Guy...my husband has said he wants it 2 or 3 times a day...so in his opinion or 6-8 times a month is pretty pitiful! He never says anything though and doesn't want me to feel bad. But by not telling me his feeling and me not telling him mine we just keep hurting each other. We are very good at acting as if nothing happened. I think thats why we are at the point we are now and I want to do whatever it takes to fix it...even if I have to go way outside my comfort zone and discuss problems as the occur.


Remember it is all relative. A couple of years ago I would have traded anything to get up to 6-8 times a month, but now I think that sounds too low. I will also note that as a man, when I feel I am not having enough sex, it is all I can think about and I image having it with my wife 2-3 times a day. So while he may say he wants that, it is unlikely he really does. He does want it more often.

One thought on raising that amount a bit is for you to start sending signals earlier in the day. I had a lot of success with raising the level of intimacy with my wife by “making my moves” earlier in the day, or even the day before. Kissing her in the kitchen in the morning while I grab her butt, flirty texts, snuggling on the couch in the evening, and then initiating when we go to bed. As I did more of this, I was careful to read my wife’s signals – she had been giving me the go ahead a lot more than I realized, but I was too dumb to see it. As I got better, I would react accordingly. 

So what may help is to send the signal earlier than 11 pm at night. I don’t know what would work for you, but think back to when you were sex life was good. It may be snuggling on the couch with your hand lightly rubbing his chest, or pulling yourself into him when you are standing at the counter doing something, or giving him a deep kiss in the morning when he leaves. What ever you used to do to tell him you wanted him. 

And then, absolutely make sure you follow through that evening.


----------



## AbsolutelyFree

I think that men have to accept that a lot of women just aren't into this as much as they are.

Imagine if you replaced the word 'sex' with some hobby like baseball or stamp collecting. You feel disappointed and resentful that your wife doesn't show as much interest in this hobby as you. When she makes an effort expresses interest that is obviously forced, you feel frustration with her because it's 'charity' interest. 

She might be making a sincere attempt to show interest in stamp collecting, but she just doesn't have the same passion for it as you. Can a she _make_ herself enjoy stamp collecting and feel the same excitement over it as you? Is it bad if she can't? 

I think that a lot of men unrealistically believe that there's a course of action which will somehow change their wife into a person who feels the same way about sex as they do. I think it's an unreasonable expectation. After a certain point, I think you have to stop obsessing and stressing out over it and be happy with what you have.


----------



## Toffer

AbsolutelyFree, I think the main issue for most of the men who complain here is that they sometimes feel like they may have been the victims of a "bait and switch" scam.

Their spouses seemed to really enjoy and be into sex when they were dating and engaged and then at some point in the marriage, that all changed.

I don't think most of us are trying to " change their wife into a person who feels the same way about sex as they do", I think we are just hoping they'll be at least somewhat more into the intimacy part of the releationship.

Now I realize that things like having children cause a fundemental shift in the relationship and the energy leves of those involved but what I think adds to the frustration of the men here is that most of the proposed "cures" to the issue involve the men changing what they do and how they do it.

While I often accompany my wife to the mall for example, it's not the going to mall part I like. I do it to spend time with her and to make her happy.

Hell, I know that after 26 years of marriage to my wife, I can't perform at the same level I did when we dated or for the first 5 years of our marriage. As you age and mature, the physical aspect of the marriage naturally slows down on the part of both partners. Hell, if I expected my wife to "perform" at the same frequency we did in the first decade of our marriage, it would probably kill me (but with a smile on my face).

You seem to advocate settling. While I think that is necessary some times, is it also OK for your husband to say "OK, since I am settling for less sex with you, I am going to take a demotion at work, earn less money so we'll have to sell the house. You OK with that honey? Are you happy with what you now have (as opposed to what you used to have?)

My true point is that there has to be some kind of middle ground. Take it or leave it is not a loving comprise by any stretch of the imagination!


----------



## Beowulf

Sex is a need. Just like affection, financial security, honesty, communication, etc. Barring a legitimate reason like a medical condition, if a spouse's needs are not being met then there is a problem that threatens the very foundation of the marriage.

Sex is a basic biological need for most men just like most women choose a man at least partially based on his ability to provide for her and her children. So when Toffer says that if sex is taken off the table the man should be able to reduce or quit his job, there is a logical consequence of each decision.

The problem is that women generally do not understand how much men need sex and many times men do not understand how much women need affection and communication. It takes both parties trying to understand and accommodate the other to make a marriage work. When only one party is really making the effort the relationship breaks down.


----------



## Toffer

Beowulf, that's a pretty succint version of waht I said, thanks1

God knows even when both people in a relationship are trying, it's still hard!


----------



## Toshiba2020

> Asking her directly may not help either because she may not have any idea, or she have shut this part of herself down completely and won't give herself permission to feel it as a result of taking care of others and what she feels are her life/family obligations.


I feel like this is a common cause, women get so wrapped up with everything else that they forget about their marriage, as a result things like sex, flirting, etc...get pushed aside for more "important" or urgent things and then the man feels neglected or unimportant and then he withdraws emotional, which then kills any and all chances for intimacy as the women now feels neglected as well. Its a vicious cycle to break out of for sure.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Or perhaps to some people marriage is a means to an end. Cynical I know but that's how I see it.


----------



## canttrustu

confused, Have you told your wife that you NEED sex. Not that you just want it but that you NEED it?


----------



## Entropy3000

canttrustu said:


> confused, Have you told your wife that you NEED sex. Not that you just want it but that you NEED it?


Have not read all the posts. Most men's #1 need is sexual fullfillment. 

I found His Needs Her Needs to be very eye opening. It is an essential read for both spouses. I was totally amazed that some women do not understand how importnat that sex is to many men. It is not the only thing but the rest does not mean a whole lot without this one.

For most men ... no sex equals no marriage. We connect with women via sex. Some say women connect and then can have sex.


----------



## canttrustu

Entropy3000 said:


> Have not read all the posts. Most men's #1 need is sexual fullfillment.
> 
> I found His Needs Her Needs to be very eye opening. It is an essential read for both spouses. I was totally amazed that some women do not understand how importnat that sex is to many men. It is not the only thing but the rest does not mean a whole lot without this one.
> 
> For most men ... no sex equals no marriage. We connect with women via sex. Some say women connect and then can have sex.


Its true. But I will tell you that if my H and I aren't having sex, my world is not good. I mean for me. I need to be with him. For me no sex = no marriage. But with that said I think alot of women dont feel that way and feel like that is ALL he wants. I think men dont do a good job of explaining that yes sex is a physical need for them but it is also what connects him to her. That he needs to be wanted by her. Its more than just the big O.


----------



## Toshiba2020

Entropy3000 said:


> Have not read all the posts. Most men's #1 need is sexual fullfillment.
> 
> I found His Needs Her Needs to be very eye opening. It is an essential read for both spouses. I was totally amazed that some women do not understand how importnat that sex is to many men. It is not the only thing but the rest does not mean a whole lot without this one.
> 
> For most men ... no sex equals no marriage. We connect with women via sex. Some say women connect and then can have sex.


Men need the physical connection, that will cause them to connect with a women emotionally. Women need the emotional connection and that causes them to connect physically. If either member fails to provide what the other needs it will never work


----------



## Entropy3000

AbsolutelyFree said:


> I think that men have to accept that a lot of women just aren't into this as much as they are.
> 
> Imagine if you replaced the word 'sex' with some hobby like baseball or stamp collecting. You feel disappointed and resentful that your wife doesn't show as much interest in this hobby as you. When she makes an effort expresses interest that is obviously forced, you feel frustration with her because it's 'charity' interest.
> 
> She might be making a sincere attempt to show interest in stamp collecting, but she just doesn't have the same passion for it as you. Can a she _make_ herself enjoy stamp collecting and feel the same excitement over it as you? Is it bad if she can't?
> 
> I think that a lot of men unrealistically believe that there's a course of action which will somehow change their wife into a person who feels the same way about sex as they do. I think it's an unreasonable expectation. After a certain point, I think you have to stop obsessing and stressing out over it and be happy with what you have.


I guess sex is a hobby for some men but they are having it with many different women.

Sex is not a hobby. It is a reall need.

When we say that the wife is not into sex as much as a man, I read the wife is not into the marriage as much as her husband.

I got married to have an exclusive ongoing active sexual relationship with my wife. Part of that is living together and sharing ourselves with each other in many ways including sex. I married a woman because she is a woman who I fell in love with. She provides me with Dopamine and Oxytocin.
I chose my wife. As she did me.

This is how I choose to define my relationship with my wife.

1) Her Exclusive Lover
2) Her Best Male Friend
3) Her Husband

In that order. 

No Sex = No Marriage ( this is true for me )

Now if for some reason there were medical / health issues I am not talking about "for better or for worse" situations. I am saying that by its definition marriage for me is having that exclusive and active sex life with my wife. Not going to see the Mavs play or going to the mall. I enjoy doing all sorts of things with my wife. None of them matter if we are not having good and frequent sex.

I guess we can say that when we take sex out of the equation wives just have to realize that guys are just not that much into their wives as much as the wives are into themselves.


----------



## Entropy3000

canttrustu said:


> Its true. But I will tell you that if my H and I aren't having sex, my world is not good. I mean for me. I need to be with him. For me no sex = no marriage. But with that said I think alot of women dont feel that way and feel like that is ALL he wants. I think men dont do a good job of explaining that yes sex is a physical need for them but it is also what connects him to her. That he needs to be wanted by her. Its more than just the big O.


No argument. Some of us men are just idiots. Most are just clueless. But if I am gasping for breath all I want is to breathe. If I am thirsty I need to drink. If I am in a sexless marriage all I want is sex.

Some men have to just run the MAP -> Married Man Sex Life

I think His Needs Her Needs is essential reading.


----------



## canttrustu

Complexity said:


> On the point of giving out compliments, I completely agree with the OP. Why do wives almost never say anything complimentary other than " I love you" to their men?


I tell my husband that he is handsome and hot all the time!


----------



## Entropy3000

Toshiba2020 said:


> I feel like this is a common cause, women get so wrapped up with everything else that they forget about their marriage, as a result things like sex, flirting, etc...get pushed aside for more "important" or urgent things and then the man feels neglected or unimportant and then he withdraws emotional, which then kills any and all chances for intimacy as the women now feels neglected as well. Its a vicious cycle to break out of for sure.


Having children puts a real strain on a marriage. It is a double edged sword.


----------



## canttrustu

veryconfusedhusband said:


> No I am not a Nice Guy that needs affirmation in fact I did not even notice it for years that she was not givIng me much. I am not a needy guy but if we have not had sex in weeks I do withdraw out of frustration because I just get tired if being shot down it gets so old. I don't want to go to MC because it seemed to actually make it worse like affirmation for her cause I was changing we were in counseling but I never got what I needed. My wife is wicked smart when it comes to social dynamics she is a psychologist herself and she will break down analyze and cross examine me on a three minute conversation we had earlier in the day. She remembers every last word I myself have many degrees but in the moment I don't proccesss that way. So we have a minor argument and then try to discuss it later after kids go to bed. Usually in this time it is discovered that I did not clearly hear her exact words and while my actions an words were not intentionally meant to annoy her or whatever it led to an arguement. Sometimes when I tell her well I did not realize you told him to do that she will say well I explained it to you but you ignored me. Which occurred because my focus was on my conversation with my son. So I am not really listening to her because I am feeling undermined trying to be a parent and she feels undermined because I am not following through properly with her prior instruction to my son. See we were both right in our intent but if I had listened to her words exactly I would have known that but for her she says I believe you but intent us just not enough anymore you need to listen to me. Yeah but my son was talking frantically and quickly I was focused on him. I will never ever leave and she is not giving up either after our argument last night we cuddled and watched tv. Right now it seems to that she just wants an improved me and who can blame her that is I guess what I want from her but I don't thnk it is gonna happen. Jesse I reallly appreciated your perspective but the part guys don't get us why? You say he is sexy and you love him in 30 minutes or less you could just tell him please take your time pleasure me. Yeah we want to just feel you and touch you while we listen it helps us feel good to. Oh yeah we want our cookies too but really when we have had our best sex if she orgasms first sometimes we will stop cause she can't take it anymore and I am often ok with that and will not even ask her to help me finish any other ways. I am crazy in love with her she is beautiful and smart and a great mother to our children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


confused, have you said exactly what you just said to us about her TO her? the part about her being beautiful, smart and an awesome mother?


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Yes I have told her that but lately trying to chill those type of comments after I noticed they were not coming back. I think the perspective that some women share expressed here that sex and physical affection is just not important to some and then comparing to a hobby or something is really so off to men. But really glad that was posted thank you because in some ways I think this is what my wife thinks. But it is not a hobby I mean I love sports but I can go without no problem. If I was promised good sex on the evening and I had to give up all food for that whole day I would be as skinny as Gandhi. Seriously we can't help it and I feel lucky that my wife is truly attractive to me. I do wonder about the His Needs Her Needs Book. My wife is currently reading and trying to get me to read the Gottman books 6 Essential Steps or something. I read through it and it was all common sense stuff and the examples were so extreme. I did download an audio presentation by him that was decent but really all the communication has not really worked out and my wife things we need to fix this issue. Well I don't have a masters degree in psychology but his main point appears to be that we are who we are and while we have this problem with current partner we would be having a different problem with another partner. But of course my wife harps in all the negative examples and warning signs in the book instead and I think it causes more problems. I need her to understand I will do my best but I will never communicate exactly how she wants me to and I see that I need to understand that sex is not as important to her. I feel like she does not get that I have already accepted way less sexuality in our marriage than I would prefer. But anyhow things appear to be better lately no sex but it seems we are talking a bit more and I am having some success in getting her to understand that sometimes when I don't want to talk about that I really just don't want to talk about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Enchantment

You should consider reading His Needs, Her Needs - together. It's quite a good book. And the marriagebuilders.com website has worksheets for helping identify the love busters you do (things that turn off your spouse) and their (and your) emotional needs (things they need you to do to feel closer to you and vice versa). The best thing ... you can write the stuff down.

You know when I was reading your original thread from some time ago, I was struck with how well you wrote about your feelings. You used it as a type of journal then and were quite expressive in how you felt as you went through counseling and especially expressive about how you felt about your wife. Have you ever considered keeping some kind of a journal - where you could write thoughts and feelings down that your wife could read when you were ready to let her? It would still be a form of communication - doesn't involve talking at all - and it might open a door for your wife to be able to see into you a bit more, which is what I sense she may want - especially in light of the tendency you have had to become uncommunicative at times. Might be worth a try. 

Best wishes.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Thank you Enchanted those both sound like good ideas. I think I will get the book this weekend and the worksheets sounds perfect as it is something we could "do". Yeah last time I did sort if write for myself as it seemed I was losing my sanity a bit an it did help. Those posts were certainly bettter written then these ones typed out on my phone. I am not so sure if that would be a good idea to share with her though as afraid she would counterpoint me on lots of things or try to explain how I got my facts wrong of course not on purpose but again I just don't understand what age really said etc. I think one thing I have learned is I am not can't play by her rules cause it never works out so well. So I we can together go through worksheets like you described or a book that includes both male and female perspectives I think that would be a good place to start from. Ladies let's be honest most relationship books are written for the female perspective because that is the target demographic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jessie13

Toffer said:


> Jessie, sounds like your husband is still in a better position (no pun intended!) than I am. So far this year we are averaging 4 times a month.
> 
> Your husband wants it 2 - 3 times a day? I'd kill for 3 or 4 times a week! And that may even tire me out!
> 
> Now you know how hw feels and you want to improve things, are you comfortable enough to go out of your comfort zone and maybe be with him on an increased frequency when neither of you have to worry about work or kids (like over a weekend)?


Toffer he says he wants it that often...but thats rare! I am definately willing to increase the frequency..especially if he would iniate it! We went out of town for new years and lack of sex was not a problem. We had an amazing time being by ourselves. For the last 4 years we have had a daughter and granddaughter living with us and for the last 8 months our other daughter her husband and 2 daughters have been with us. We both have high stress jobs and then coming home to a house full is stressful also. We just need so alone time to reconnect I think!


----------



## Toffer

Jessie, You and your husband should definitely get away for at least a wek somewhere and use that entire week to re-connect on a physical level. 

You could also tell him to call me and I'll let him compare my story to his!

Have adult children and grand children around has got to be tough!


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Well anyhow just wanted to update as we appear to be making some progress. After a decent day Friday we had a nice talk followed by sex. It is still a bit awkward cause she saId something like "well I know you want to and we can but if we don't does that mean you are going to be ........." Ok don't remembe the rest but I just smiled kissed her and said well ok then I want too she smiled. Anyway it was surprisingly lame but nice just the same. I seriously cannot remember the last time or ever neither if us got their cookies. Oh well. Then last night we went through the worksheets a bit from marriagebuilders. She had an issue at how questions were framed. I understood her point but I could have done it. We then both did the quick lovelanguages quiz which was fun but did not show much we did not know we both came out high in words of affirmatiion and lowest in gifts or whatever. I told her I would rather buy gifts but she laughed and said you would have never liked me if I was that way....true. The wierdest part of it all is how the marriagebusters forms showed me what my problems are in that she said things like well this is going to be too hurtful etc if I answer all of this I guess basically how she feels disconnected etc and is just not into me I guess? She still sticks to idea that my actions lead her to not feel romantically connected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## memyselfandi

I'm not sure what the marriage counselor is telling you but women are soo much different than men when it comes to sex..especially after you're married.

I know guys tend to talk and say, "Yeah..once you're married..the sex just gets less and less" but that's not really what it's about for most of us women.

What it's about for us is the romance. Why is it that when two people are dating, guys are willing to wear their hearts on their sleeves..tell us all their hopes and dreams..get sappy..send us flowers, etc. but once they marry us..all the sap goes out the window??

Sex isn't all about "doing it". Foreplay consists not only of kissing and hugging..but more about giving your woman a compliment everyday and making her feel beautiful even without makeup while she'd doing the laundry wearing sweats. Take her out for dinner and make it a "date night". Leave her a "lovegram" somewhere whether writing I love you on the windshield of her car or on the mirror in the bathroom for her to see when she comes out of the shower.

Leave her a "candygram" writing I love you out of peanuts..or M&M's....or whatever else you can find, on the kitchen table when she comes home from work or on her way to work.

Kiss her on the neck while she's making dinner or doing homework with the kids (the kids will laugh but they'll think it's cute as hell!!)

Tell her she's beautiful in the morning when she crawls out of bed at 6 am to get the kids ready for school. Don't ever forget to tell her she's beautiful even when she's at her worst as she'll appreciate it more than you realize.

Tell her she smells good. Tell her you love her cooking even if she makes the same thing over and over again because she thinks it's your favorite. Watch HER movies with her even though they bore you to tears.

That's foreplay. I could make a list a mile long but if you do the little things that truely make your wife feel appreciated and beautiful..I promise you..you'll have the best sex you'll ever dream of!!

All in all..use your imagination. You know your wife better than anyone else and if you're the most romantic thug on the face of the earth...she's going to tell all her friends about it and again..you're going to get lucky soo often..you may have to cut HER off...lol!!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

memyselfandi said:


> What it's about for us is the romance. Why is it that when two people are dating, guys are willing to wear their hearts on their sleeves..tell us all their hopes and dreams..get sappy..send us flowers, etc. but once they marry us..all the sap goes out the window??


I believe the best advice to give to newlyweds is to keep dating your spouse. This goes both ways. Men need to continue the mushy stuff like you mention - surprise gifts, neck kisses, compliments, etc. Women need to keep dressing up for the dates, flirting with their man, and pursuing in their own way.
This is especially important when kids come around, as it is far to easy to slip into the role of mom and dad. 

A couple needs to make time to date each other.


----------



## SprucHub

memyselfandi said:


> I'm not sure what the marriage counselor is telling you but women are soo much different than men when it comes to sex..especially after you're married.
> 
> I know guys tend to talk and say, "Yeah..once you're married..the sex just gets less and less" but that's not really what it's about for most of us women.
> 
> What it's about for us is the romance. Why is it that when two people are dating, guys are willing to wear their hearts on their sleeves..tell us all their hopes and dreams..get sappy..send us flowers, etc. but once they marry us..all the sap goes out the window??
> 
> Sex isn't all about "doing it". Foreplay consists not only of kissing and hugging..but more about giving your woman a compliment everyday and making her feel beautiful even without makeup while she'd doing the laundry wearing sweats. Take her out for dinner and make it a "date night". Leave her a "lovegram" somewhere whether writing I love you on the windshield of her car or on the mirror in the bathroom for her to see when she comes out of the shower.
> 
> Leave her a "candygram" writing I love you out of peanuts..or M&M's....or whatever else you can find, on the kitchen table when she comes home from work or on her way to work.
> 
> Kiss her on the neck while she's making dinner or doing homework with the kids (the kids will laugh but they'll think it's cute as hell!!)
> 
> Tell her she's beautiful in the morning when she crawls out of bed at 6 am to get the kids ready for school. Don't ever forget to tell her she's beautiful even when she's at her worst as she'll appreciate it more than you realize.
> 
> Tell her she smells good. Tell her you love her cooking even if she makes the same thing over and over again because she thinks it's your favorite. Watch HER movies with her even though they bore you to tears.
> 
> That's foreplay. I could make a list a mile long but if you do the little things that truely make your wife feel appreciated and beautiful..I promise you..you'll have the best sex you'll ever dream of!!
> 
> All in all..use your imagination. You know your wife better than anyone else and if you're the most romantic thug on the face of the earth...she's going to tell all her friends about it and again..you're going to get lucky soo often..you may have to cut HER off...lol!!


Great advice - all true - even telling the friends part. Up until the "you're going to get lucky so often". That is just not true, at least in my case. My wife would be the first to tell you I do everything she could want (that my schedule allows). She'd prefer to read, or visit pinterest, or sleep. She enjoys sex, just doesn't think about it. This was true before the kids came.


----------



## Enchantment

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Well anyhow just wanted to update as we appear to be making some progress. After a decent day Friday we had a nice talk followed by sex. It is still a bit awkward cause she saId something like "well I know you want to and we can but if we don't does that mean you are going to be ........." Ok don't remembe the rest but I just smiled kissed her and said well ok then I want too she smiled. Anyway it was surprisingly lame but nice just the same. I seriously cannot remember the last time or ever neither if us got their cookies. Oh well. Then last night we went through the worksheets a bit from marriagebuilders. She had an issue at how questions were framed. I understood her point but I could have done it. We then both did the quick lovelanguages quiz which was fun but did not show much we did not know we both came out high in words of affirmatiion and lowest in gifts or whatever. I told her I would rather buy gifts but she laughed and said you would have never liked me if I was that way....true. The wierdest part of it all is how the marriagebusters forms showed me what my problems are in that she said things like well this is going to be too hurtful etc if I answer all of this I guess basically how she feels disconnected etc and is just not into me I guess? *She still sticks to idea that my actions lead her to not feel romantically connected*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Were specific actions listed from her? If not, then have her state the specific actions or give more detail.

If specific actions were listed, then you can develop a plan as to how those can be addressed.

The other thing, and you may have to hold her feet to the fire on this one, is that if she is holding on to issues and resentments about things from the past and you are making a sustained, concerted effort to improve on those actions that she did not like, then she is responsible for forgiving you and letting her resentments go and must make an honest attempt to move forward - instead of constantly staying in this holding pattern.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Thank you Enchanted I agree 100% MemyselfandI thank you for your input but that is not my problem at all. I love doing romantic things throughout the day but this has zero or little effect as my wife is focused on any negative interaction and a zillion positives will not have any effect. Don't want to go through it all again but if you want to read my first few posts to this thread you mIght better understand. So we had another talk last night focused on making marriage work from John Gottman. I read a few chapters and we discussed it. Did not go great cause she got all defensive and almost started seeming like an arguement. After I called her on it she cooled off and acknowledged that the reason I shut down or stonewall is cause she goes on the verbal attack. Anyway I really need some input regarding an issue that seems to be festering. I have told you all how I think she is beautiful and I am honestly more deeply in live and attracted now then when we first met. But I am struggling with that because i cannot be the romantic compliment giving guy suggested by MemyselfandI. She was getting ready to go out for the day and asked me how she looked and I was actually blown away she looked so perfectly stunning. But I just shrugged my shoulders and told her yeah that looks ok. You see the day before I had given her a warm hug the day after we finally had sex again and told her how beautiful she was and she sort of pushed me off like that's too much please don't. This is also an issue because her greatest compliment to me is something like you look nice today. We talked again about that last night and she said I know you want something more explicit or sexual but that is not me. I told her well I just want to be wanted and that is pretty normal I think. Not sure what I can do without all that but I am trying to make it clear to her that it will be impossible for me to communicate in the way she wants when I am not getting my needs met. I will not cheat but to me marriage is boring without sexual energy and clear attraction. Thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Toffer

Veryconfused, have you thought about a modified 180? You know, work out, improve yourself, go out with friends on your own, develop your own life etc. Maybe if she sees that other women become interested in you (purely innocent on your part of course) she realize that to keep you she'll have to try harder to change.

In the meantime as many have already said, the only one you can change is you!


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

That stuff has zero effect and just means I miss out being around my kids. I am in good shape but when I work out more and look better she says nothing nor if I gain a few pounds in the winter. I think a part of this is just her low libido. But it kills me how she seems so disinterested in sex most of the time but when we get going she can really enjoy it all even the dirty talk. Seriously the solution is to leave and let her find a man that wants to put up with all of this but I love her too much and my kids too. I bet she would be the same way with the next guy. And I would have some of the same communication issues I am sure but if I was with a woman that wanted me physically I would be much more tuned into my communication. Not on purpose just because sex has a bonding and connecting nature for me. Why doesn't she get this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

Maybe you should stop communicating with your wife. Stop doing things for her. Stop trying to please her. Spend time with your kids. Do things for yourself. Go to the gym. Take up a hobby. You said this stuff has zero effect on her. Why are you doing it for her? You are letting her control the relationship...and you.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

She gets all pissed off when I shut down communication. I guess in some ways I have done this a bit even lately but if I ignore her too much she is annoyed. For her a perfectly harmonious and mostly platonic relationship appears to be what she is striving for but when I point this out to her she just does not see it that way. I do agree she is certainly gaining control by emphasizing her emotional needs must be met first before she feels more sexually connected. But apparently a majority of women feel that way. I suppose if she knew another woman was intested in me or that I was willing to leave over this might light a spark. But again I am not going there..... to even bring that up I think would be traumatic for her as in her view she is the one whose needs have not been met in a long time because we don't have the harmonious relationship she envisions. Just now is she acknowledging that she plays a role in our problems before it was all my fault and she was merely using coping strategies to deal with me. Again thank you all for the comments this helps keep my sanity. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

veryconfusedhusband said:


> She gets all pissed off when I shut down communication. I guess in some ways I have done this a bit even lately but if I ignore her too much she is annoyed. For her a perfectly harmonious and mostly platonic relationship appears to be what she is striving for but when I point this out to her she just does not see it that way. I do agree she is certainly gaining control by emphasizing her emotional needs must be met first before she feels more sexually connected. But apparently a majority of women feel that way. I suppose if she knew another woman was intested in me or that I was willing to leave over this might light a spark. But again I am not going there..... to even bring that up I think would be traumatic for her as in her view she is the one whose needs have not been met in a long time because we don't have the harmonious relationship she envisions. Just now is she acknowledging that she plays a role in our problems before it was all my fault and she was merely using coping strategies to deal with me. Again thank you all for the comments this helps keep my sanity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe she needs to get annoyed...a lot. Aren't you annoyed? Why are you meeting all her needs when she obviously doesn't seem to care to meet yours. If you aren't happy with the status quo maybe you need to change it. When she gets so annoyed that she comes to you and complains tell her you are giving her the relationship she wants and created. If she'd like to work *WITH* you to improve the relationship she has to make some commitments and actually follow through. It certainly seems from your description that she has a very unrealistic expectation of relationships and marriage.


----------



## okeydokie

Beowulf said:


> Maybe she needs to get annoyed...a lot. Aren't you annoyed? Why are you meeting all her needs when she obviously doesn't seem to care to meet yours. If you aren't happy with the status quo maybe you need to change it. When she gets so annoyed that she comes to you and complains tell her you are giving her the relationship she wants and created. If she'd like to work *WITH* you to improve the relationship she has to make some commitments and actually follow through. It certainly seems from your description that she has a very unrealistic expectation of relationships and marriage.


yup, took me awhile to realize that annoying my wife in this manner wasnt always a bad thing. i was way too conscious of her feelings sometimes. take her out of her comfort zone,


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Yeah I agree but she just tells me that when it comes to sex she can't just become turned on that it will take time. I pointed out that we have been dealing with this issue since we were married and before kids. I am starting to think that she is just low libido and is one of those women who really prefer things like Pinterest and FB as well as raising kids to things like sex. She has the guy, the kids, nice house, part-time job and we are not broke so she is done. She is really happy today - nice to see I mean I love her but that has zero chance of translating to sex tonight. She even came up behind me and gave me a nice long hug. It was nice but that was it --- see for her that was her showing affection. Yes it was great and I like it but thats it or maybe she is finally defrosting. Somewhere in our discussions later I am going to just put a number out there -- I need sex twice a week. Otherwise it is like once every week to week and half then i get grumpy and we argue about other stuff. So what you think? Sucks cause too me that is so unromantic but if your partner never initiates and shoots you down lots it might be the best alternative.


----------



## Toffer

veryconfused, I have to agree with okeydokey. If you develop other outside interests and focus less on meeting all of her needs, she may see you growing in other directions and this could have a positive effect.

What do you think will happen with this relationship as the kids get older? Do you see yourself staying around after they hit 18 or 21? 

One of the talks I had with my wife was that now that the kids are older, I would expect things to change since the demands were less now. Again, it's a bit of a roller coaster for me because it gets better for a while and then goes back to normal.

I told her that I can see why men are vulnerable (and women too I guess) when a charmer comes along and expresses a physical attraction to them. Think this was a bit of an eye opener to her.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Yeah it is always good to work in yourself and honestly I am going to do this simply out of boredom. I just get bored at home a lot lately and I even look forward to go to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

I don't know if a man can win at this game, if he pulls back and concentrates on himself he'll be accused of "not meeting her needs", if he continues to be "supportive" and "give her space" he'll be viewed as a "doormat" and "Beta". 

A lot of guys that go through this eventually find their wives "needs" are being met by some guy they met on Facebook and have been sexting for the last two years ;~)

I think you need to sit down with her and talk, get it out in the open. Chances are if she's over 40 she might be getting ready to give you the speech......


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

The speech? She is 34 and I can promise you she is not sexting anyone including me cause she "just doesn't like to do that". For a long time I almost wished that was the case that she had some crush on someone cause then at least I would know those playful sexual emotions were not dead. I do think she is falling hard for Pinterest though! Like I said earlier it's just getting old and I don't want to be around her as much cause I am starting to find her boring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Well here we are one more day gone and same old. Kids go to bed I do my thing and she does hers. She shows no interest in anything physical or romantic and I am really done flirting or initiating anything. We have not argued in a few days but she has said a few times that I seem kinda different. She does not like that I am not enthusiastically sharing thoughts but just don't feel like it. Coming home later from work and leaving earlier in the morning as just happier when I not at home. Hope things improve but she needs to take the next step. Still love her and want her hope she can figure out what she really wants cause this marriage is getting strange.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## allthegoodnamesaregone

veryconfusedhusband said:


> The speech? She is 34 and I can promise you she is not sexting anyone including me cause she "just doesn't like to do that". For a long time I almost wished that was the case that she had some crush on someone cause then at least I would know those playful sexual emotions were not dead. I do think she is falling hard for Pinterest though! Like I said earlier it's just getting old and I don't want to be around her as much cause I am starting to find her boring.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The old "I love you, but I'm not in love with you speech". When they say they "just doesn't like to do that" only means they don't want to do that with you ;~). These forums are full of men who said their wife wasn't interested in sex, only to find later they were playing ' Ride em cowboy' with some OM for a couple of months.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

GreenEyes said:


> Woman can be selfish, but it seems on this site that if a woman is not having sex with her H it's because she is being selfish or has something wrong with her....


That's funny, my reading of this forum is that men should take the blame and women are largely blameless. lol

Its always his fault. He needs to "man-up". He needs to communicate. He needs to do more housework.

Sitting here thinking of a common theme women receive blame for... and... I got nothin'. Awesome.


----------



## Toffer

Very Confused, I hear ya!
Last night we sat on the couch, held hands, she intiated some nice little gestures (grabbed my butt when I got up, sorta tweeked me you know where) so I thought Hmmmmm, maybe something will happen tonight.

She gets in bed and cuddles up a little with me and .....falls asleep after I try to get things going. ;(

Earlier today we had an email exchange where she told me how she had trouble sleeping last night because of an issue with someone. I wrote back "Really? It was hard to tell because of your snoring!"

Didn't here back on that!


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Well again I doubt it are there any other women who don't like sexting or explicit flirting? Please don't tell me I married the only one!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Runs like Dog

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Well again I doubt it are there any other women who don't like sexting or explicit flirting? Please don't tell me I married the only one!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You're not serious. They're one in 10 thousand.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Toffer I hear you and sometimes I think my wife fails to be playful or touch me anywhere in the evening as she has said well I don't want you to misinterpret that as wanting sex. Or why can't we just lay and cuddle without sex comIng up? Well if I had not eaten for many days I want food and think of boy that and it is the same thing with sex. But I am afraid I am way passed hoping she will have sex with me I plan on waiting until she can step up and show me she wants it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Thanks Run Like Dog you have to be wring though? Really?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Runs like Dog

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Thanks Run Like Dog you have to be wring though? Really?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


eh?


----------



## GTdad

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Thanks Run Like Dog you have to be wring though? Really?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Wrong"? 

He's not. My wife doesn't have much use for flirting, explicit or otherwise, and would rather eat broken glass than do any sexting.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Yes wrong sorry. This is funny and as you can see my wife is not the only one. And again I really doubt she is cheating. If she was why would she bother with marriage counselor? And yes she is going I know this for sure. I think she just has decided that she cannot share her love for me until I am the absolute perfect non confrontational never say anything wrong husband. And even then I guess she believes that it is her body and sex is just not as interesting as Pinterest or FB or any of her other very normal and feminine craft type interests.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Chimp

GTdad said:


> "Wrong"?
> 
> He's not. My wife doesn't have much use for flirting, explicit or otherwise, and would rather eat broken glass than do any sexting.


Mine as well.


----------



## Toffer

VeryConfused,
Here's another illustration to show you that you're not alone and we feel your pain.
Last night was sitting on couch watching some TV as we always do most week nights. I had my hand on the inside of her left thigh (no funny business or groping!) while her left hand remained stationary on top of her left thigh. At the same time, our small dog was on the couch to the right of her. The dog was getting her head scratched and her belly rubbed the whole time!

I made a half kidding (trying to keep it light) comment and pointed this out to see if there'd be any tupe of change. You guessed it....nothing.

I now am also suspicious of the "spend 15 hours a week with your wife doing non-sexual touch things". We probably get close to that with most of it happening on the weekends yet little else happens beyond.

Our love love averages about once a week ONLY because I ALWAYS intiate and don't let things slide. But, like you I am getting tired (after 26+ years of this) of this.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Toffer said:


> I now am also suspicious of the "spend 15 hours a week with your wife doing non-sexual touch things". We probably get close to that with most of it happening on the weekends yet little else happens beyond.


I understand that the 15 hours is quality time with your spouse, not just sitting next to each other slack jawed while the TV drones on in front of you.

To me, that is washing and drying dishes or folding clothes together while just the two of us talk, or playing a game, or even watching and discussing the news (I love being able to pause the TV to talk about it). My wife and I need time to interact with each other as adults, not as mom and dad.

I also think that you should add non-initiating sexual touch to non-sexual touch. Things like coming up behind her and kissing her neck while she is making dinner, or getting a nice grinding hug before work. These touches are sexual (and show that she is desired by you) but are non-initiating, in that there is no immediate plans for sex. I think these sort of touches are just as critical as the hand on the back or holding hands that have no sexual overtones.


----------



## Toffer

TAG, I do these things constantly. We run errands together, spending time in the car talking and holding hands. We clean-up after dinner together almost every night. I kiss her when I leave for work in the morning (usually on the forehead whiles she's still in bed since I leave at 6 AM).

Some nights she'll wait for me to get home before having her dinner (kids can't usually wait for me to walk through the door at 7 PM and her mother is usually at our house 5 -6 days a week so she feeds her too (that's a whole different post!)) and we will often talk during that time too.

We spend maybe 60 mins on the couch watching TV a night (after all the dinner dishes are done and away). We'll typically enjoy a cup of tea at this time too with either she makes or I do.

I do not think any of these touches are intiating touches especially based on our history. I see them more as loving gestures and expressions of love, not sex.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Yes as far as sex goes I do think many guys are dealing with women that have low to no drive and have no comprehension of how this can affect their relationship. While I am very concerned about improving our sex life I am at the point that my main concern is losing my wife. I have been reading about walkaway wives who just decide its over. Recent discussions with my wife in my attempt to actively work on our marriage - this is what she tells me she needs "work on the marriage". As I have stated here before this work has never worked for me as the focus is always on her concerns and then her ensuing judgement as to if I am meeting these standards which she cannot clearly define. But at any rate I have been jumping in with the Gottman book she likes and I find it reasonable. 

Well this has been tough but I have been biting my tongue a lot and trying to point out the imbalance in how she is treating me and how she wants to be treated. Plus I am human I can't be perfect so when getting negative comments from a woman he says she is not sure of her attraction to me because of our issues has been brutal. 

BUT I think maybe she is finally waking up? I had a confrontation with one of our children and I had to raise my voice as he went into the street which led to a big blowup as this kid always flips out when disciplined and tries to blame the parent. Well at any rate she did not support me very well at all and afterword we argued a bit. 

After she said "are you mad at me?" I said "No are you made at me", I was thinking to myself great we are finally having a normal argument and moving on from it. But then she says "No I am not mad but I think it is sad", implying I was in the wrong for how I spoke to our child like some mean dad. 

We were all on a long walk away from the house - I just said "Ok later I will see you at home". I was just fed up and I texted her a note reminding her how a few nights prior she had a blow up with this same child and I refused to intervene or judge her afterwards even though I did not like how she handled it. Because in the big picture she was right and I believe kids need to accept discipline. 

She never replied to my text and as I walked home and I almost expected her and the kids to be gone and for some bizarre text or call from her saying she just can't put up with me anymore. 

BUT instead after I got home she was pleasant and after a bit we hugged and when I told her I love you she said, "I love you too even though I have not been showing it lately". 

Finally!!!! From here we can build. This is the first acknowledgement of her role in our problems......EVER!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LemonLime

Watch porn together. Trust me.


----------



## MEM2020

Confused,
I think you had it right earlier. It goes like this:

I need to have sex twice a week to feel emotionally connected to you. If you cannot manage that I accept that we aren't going to be emotionally connected.

And then shut up. Seriously. Do not get pulled into a discussion. Let her talk - and when she is finished telling you why you are wrong, just shrug and go do something else. Do NOT debate this point. 

Because your W had her shot. She had months and months of you doing everything "her way" and it changed nothing. In fact a whole lot of your marital dynamic seems to be that you try to "get it right" and she sits there in judgement and tells you how you failed. That is a miserable way to go through life. Far better to focus on work and the kids and your friends and a hobby. And let her decide if she wants to be your partner in this marriage as opposed to your superior officer. 

I would say that with my W I have about a 10 to 1 ratio. I do 10 good things for every mistake. And you know that is plenty good for her. Her ratio with me is about the same. Honestly if she focused hard on each little thing I got wrong, I would detach emotionally and leave her to her own devices. 







veryconfusedhusband said:


> Well here we are one more day gone and same old. Kids go to bed I do my thing and she does hers. She shows no interest in anything physical or romantic and I am really done flirting or initiating anything. We have not argued in a few days but she has said a few times that I seem kinda different. She does not like that I am not enthusiastically sharing thoughts but just don't feel like it. Coming home later from work and leaving earlier in the morning as just happier when I not at home. Hope things improve but she needs to take the next step. Still love her and want her hope she can figure out what she really wants cause this marriage is getting strange.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

The statement below is only true if the HD partner is willing to let themselves be deprioritized to zero and remain committed to the marriage. 

It is absolutely not true in our marriage. 




airplane888 said:


> Just remember the low desire partner will always control when, why, what kind and how much sex you have
> 
> 
> airplane


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Confused,
> I think you had it right earlier. It goes like this:
> 
> I need to have sex twice a week to feel emotionally connected to you. If you cannot manage that I accept that we aren't going to be emotionally connected.
> 
> And then shut up. Seriously. Do not get pulled into a discussion. Let her talk - and when she is finished telling you why you are wrong, just shrug and go do something else. Do NOT debate this point.
> 
> Because your W had her shot. She had months and months of you doing everything "her way" and it changed nothing. In fact a whole lot of your marital dynamic seems to be that you try to "get it right" and she sits there in judgement and tells you how you failed. That is a miserable way to go through life. Far better to focus on work and the kids and your friends and a hobby. And let her decide if she wants to be your partner in this marriage as opposed to your superior officer.
> 
> I would say that with my W I have about a 10 to 1 ratio. I do 10 good things for every mistake. And you know that is plenty good for her. Her ratio with me is about the same. Honestly if she focused hard on each little thing I got wrong, I would detach emotionally and leave her to her own devices.


Yes. When emotions are involved to debate anything with a woman is to lose. Not the least “Just because!”.


----------



## panda1965

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if I repeat something.
Veryconfusedhusband - I think you should send her some flowers at her work, where her friends can see it. Don't expect anything, just let her think back to the beginning of your relationship.
BTW, was it hot back then?
Anyway, wooing would be what I would want. Flirt with me, make me laugh, leave a chocolate on my pillow. Look me in the eye with that sexy smouldering look, kiss my forehead. I'd do just about anything, as long as I wasn't too tired, lol.
Good luck!


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

*UPDATE: Ladies what do you really want?*

So in the end I bit the bullet and we went back to MC. But this time I picked the counselor he is trained in cognitive behavior therapy which means more focused on improving current behavior as opposed to droning on and on about the past.
We are about 5-6 weeks into it and it has gone pretty well. I think at this point he understands our situation pretty clear but has not really suggest to much. I think and hope that is coming. He asked my wife to list the areas she would like me to improve. Guess what she had nothing to say. He asked her several questions about what gets her upset angry. On our first meeting she started off saying how she was pissed off and someone and then a few minutes later pissed off at someone else. Oh he grabbed that and said you sound like you get pissed off a lot? btw she is not a super angry woman it is just little things annoy her and she lets them conflict with the big picture. 
By the second session she admitted that this MC was going better and that our last MC was not right for us. MC also asked well why do you get angry with him and she said she is not sure but that she does not like how I seem distant sometimes. I interrupted a bit and said well when she is telling me she is unhappy and cannot tell me why and then constantly cuts of intimacy at all levels I just don't want to be around so much. The MC said sounds like you want him close but not too close? 
Then MC said the lets try no sex for a month. I was like really because to me that is the only time she opens up and seems to become alive again. But anyway thought would be good idea too as she has been shutting off all flirting as for fear it would lead to sex. Seems crazy as she rejects me 90% of the time anyway. Well that worked ok at first but then I noticed hey she is not really kissing me or anything I am the one initiating all of this too. Think counselor caught this as well. Her big defense seems to be "I don't know" or "You can't make me want you". No but I can't stay in this marriage if you don't so you can't play that card anymore.


----------



## mina

Have you tried taking the Red Pill? What is the Red Pill? | Married Man Sex Life


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

I resisted at first but it has helped some. Our most recent arguments have almost always come from me calling her on unacceptable behavior. For example I noticed she never gives me a decent compliment about anything especially something physical. So anyway she tells me how a friend of mine looks good with his shirt off. I was like what? Are you kidding me? This is not ok for the women who struggles to give compliments. This went to argument but then she is like great you ruined our day. My ruining of days has lately been on calling her on crap I will not tolerate anymore. However, later in the day she was affectionate and even gave me several compliments. This from the same woman who in the am said "I don't know" when I asked why is this so hard for you.


----------



## mina

I am no expert but sounds like she needs a man to show her / tell her what's what. 

I'd not be a doormat and put up with her bad treatment of you. She loses respect for you when you do. She might not like you standing up for yourself but she will regain her respect for you, which will put you on a good path. 

At the very least you will get your own self respect back and have your head in a good place if you need to move on. 

Again I am no expert. I am a female but I think a lot like a guy. I love the Red Pill stuff and am using it to some degree in my world. Very helpful.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Well she does but she doesn't. For her sex and the thought of looming intimacy is too much pressure. So odd for me we always have a nice time and she will admit as much when we get going. When she rejects me she is also mad at me for ruining the night. Of course I get distant then and also feel unwanted and shoved off as she has also said she is unsure of her attraction to me. This is clearly a defense mechanism she just wants space and will avoid sexy flirting and now the big weapon i.e. not attracted in order to ensure she does not have to respond. I have told her this is unacceptable and it has also really messed with my head. She says I get all weird and sad and describes to MC how she hates this behavior. I ask him is this really that abnormal and he said no this what is expected in this situation. You see the very behaviors that bother her the most are those that deal with her essentially rejecting me as a partner. But she hates to hear this as she wants a complicated answer that falls mostly on me I guess and she hates the pressure of having to be the one to take a step toward me. Nevermind I am always the one to try to reconcile as she does not want to make up usually "I am still angry" she says.


----------



## mina

The Red Pill is not about being insistent about having sex. You need to, generally, act like a man. Not saying that you're not, you're the best judge there. But generally from your description of her behavior towards you and your response to it, you are being a little bit of a doormat. Chicks don't dig that. :-(


----------



## turnera

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Our most recent arguments have almost always come from me calling her on unacceptable behavior.


IMO, this should be a KEY ingredient of your talks with MC. If a person cannot accept criticism, it will keep you from reaching ANY progress. Please ask him to address it next time - nothing else, just that.



veryconfusedhusband said:


> For example I noticed she never gives me a decent compliment about anything especially something physical. So anyway she tells me how a friend of mine looks good with his shirt off. I was like what? Are you kidding me? This is not ok for the women who struggles to give compliments. This went to argument but then she is like great you ruined our day. My ruining of days has lately been on calling her on crap I will not tolerate anymore.


Many people have skated through life without ever having to face their bad points, to ever have to apologize, or to speak to someone with true humility. And many of these people accomplish it with passive aggressive deflections such as saying 'you' ruined our day. That puts you on the defensive, because YOU don't want to be seen as the bad guy, either! And then you stop looking at HER behavior. It will do you good to learn how to not get sucked into that. I've seen where people will have a ready response, such as 'You can say all day long that I ruined our day, but you still haven't addressed my comment: why is it ok for you to compliment Joe when you aren't willing to compliment me? I just want to understand why you think that's ok.'

And keep at it, today or the next day or the next MC - don't let her keep deflecting all looks at her actions.


----------



## turnera

veryconfusedhusband said:


> You see the very behaviors that bother her the most are those that deal with her essentially rejecting me as a partner. But she hates to hear this as she wants a complicated answer that falls mostly on me I guess and she hates the pressure of having to be the one to take a step toward me. Nevermind _*I am always the one to try to reconcile*_ as she does not want to make up usually "I am still angry" she says.


 And you do this...why?

Try NOT doing it. Tell MC that this is what you are going to do, and tell him that if he can't get her to accept her share of responsbility, then you are ready to move on; that you're done shouldering all the weight.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Mina - I understand red pill and I understand it is not just about sex but this has been a tough issue throughout our marriage. We can go two weeks and then if I start kissing her it coming up to her she will often get defensive. She wants me to not want it and not care if she says no and never ever initiates. Well that is never going to work out I expect marriage to include sex. She admits that she wants this too but is acting like she does not know how to get there. See she is responsive to me at times but is passive in that it is hard for her to initiate. I think the MC could help us in this area. Tunera - yes I have learned to stay on issue but usually I am not as good at not saying something like "do you think most men would really put up with this?". She knows it is not fair as I would never leave her or my children so lately i have even said I won't leave you can go if you don't want to be married. This talk is not helpful she loves me but struggles to be in love as if giving of herself is giving up control. She is just that way has lots of boundaries and I think it stems from a total deadbeat dad who let her down over and over. So she is never quite sure if I am worthy of her love. Buy she does not want me to leave she wants it safe. Also the idea that she should never have sex unless she wants it - I get that but she needs help getting aroused so I hope to address that with MC as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

veryconfusedhusband said:


> Tunera - yes I have learned to stay on issue but usually I am not as good at not saying something like "do you think most men would really put up with this?".


Ouch! Great way to get her wall up, for sure!


----------



## turnera

veryconfusedhusband said:


> This talk is not helpful she loves me but struggles to be in love as if giving of herself is giving up control. She is just that way has lots of boundaries and I think it stems from a total deadbeat dad who let her down over and over. So she is never quite sure if I am worthy of her love.


I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure if she had such a dad, she's not going around thinking you have to DESERVE her; pretty sure it's the other way around.


----------



## veryconfusedhusband

Ouch is right. Not trying to be mean but I don't want a marriage one step closer than brother/sister. 

As far as her dad I think the lesson she learned was not to count on people and to build walls around her so she could not be hurt. Now this is a bit extreme but it does seem to be why I have trouble truly connecting. The MC has pointed out carefully how she is a bit closed off and detached at times. It is even apparent in our sessions. 

The good things is we are in MC and she is coming to recognize all of our problems do not stem from me as she had tried to insist for years. I am just hoping that after we get through this that she really opens up with her ability to love and to forgive so we can move forward together. She told MC laughingly that she could not understand the concept of makeup sex as she just stays angry. Think it would be a big deal if we could get past the tension, which she feels way more than me, so that we can deal with problems as they come up.


----------



## turnera

Closed off and detached = protecting one's self. It doesn't mean you think you're better. And a deadbeat dad will almost always result in low self esteem and major man issues.


----------

