# Emotional judo - works both ways



## MEM2020

Judo is simple in concept. Use your opponents strength against them. They push and instead of pushing back, you grab their arm and pull hard - they land on their face. 

Saturday night we had an incident. My fault, my fault, my fault. 

It had to do with sex and me being a "nice guy" in how I handled the situation - how do you say "passive aggressive". 

We resolved it on Sunday or so I thought. Not really though. My W has decided that I don't "really" understand what it is like when your partner lets you know they are disappointed in sexual frequency. Disclaimer: Most of the reason this is a sore subject with her is because I was a jerk about frequency for the first 15 years of our marriage. So the occasional mis-step on my part brings up an Encyclopedia Britannica sized set of similar memories for her. 

Sunday night we connected - as usual it was great. Monday morning she wakes me up and we connect again (this is rare - lately we have been in a 3-4 times a week mode which is awesome). And THAT is a big part of the reason she was so aggravated Saturday night. Her comment was - no matter what I do you always (always is a gross exaggeration) seem to be unsatisfied. Did I mention that I was a dik Saturday night? I was.

So Monday morning right afterward she looks at me and says. "Darling the idea of disappointing you sexually is very upsetting to me. So starting today we are on a 3 a day schedule." 
I tried to back pedal. I told her there is no way I can keep that type pace. She replied "stop underestimating yourself, you'll be fine". 

Luckily I had lunch plans yesterday so I was able to escape what she is now referring to as our "daily nooner", but last night I told her I wasn't sure I would be able to perform. 

So She just started mimicking my tiresome behavior when SHE is not inclined for one reason or the other. And yes it is rare - but apparently not as rare as I think. So last night I am literally faced with my behavioral mirror. And I am not liking it. 

Afterwards she says to me: "You did fine - you didn't really start out in the mood - but I got you there. See how that works"?

This morning - 6 AM - *** - I want to be asleep at 6 - she wakes me up. "Morning" she says brightly sliding her hands down my stomach. "Aren't you tired"? I ask. "No" she says and then adds with a little edge "Are YOU too tired". "No of course not" I reply. 

Jesus - dealing with my mirror at 6 AM SUKS. So afterwards I say to her "Babe you made your point I am sorry". She looks at me deadpan and says "Sorry about what"? 

I try to explain that I am now getting anxious about this "pace". She says firmly "Don't worry, you'll get used to it". Today I asked for mercy on the nooner. Got a dose of "simulated" thing is it isn't totally simulated - anger/disappointment. "I don't like it when I EXPECT it to happen and it doesn't". 

*** *** ***. I HAVE said that now and again in the past. I am starting to sweat. Then she says "maybe 2 times a day on days you are tired". I reply weakly "I was thinking maybe to avoid a sudden "shock" to our systems we could slowly build up the frequency. How about we start at once a day"? 

She comes right back with "Once a day. That just won't do. Below twice a day perhaps I will need to begin considering other options. That won't be a problem will it"? 

I am "praying" that after a week or so of making the point, she will relent. In the meantime I need to get a script for xanax. 

It is frightening how perfectly she is able to "mimic" me. Sure she is caricaturing me a little bit. But not that much. 

And in case you are wondering. While this might be very funny for an observer, it is painfully educational for the recipient.


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## bill2011

Mem,

This is funny (for all of us, not you) and I'm sorry but you can't have any sympathy for too much sex - LOL. Your W is very sharp and you should give credit where it's due.

Good luck


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## Trenton

Oh so funny! Your wife reminds me of myself. I would absolutely do that to make my point. I was actually laughing while reading this.

My husband and I don't have the same dynamic since he's never approached me about how often we have sex so I'd have no reason to do what your wife is doing here...but if in your situation I'm fairly certain that what she has done is exactly what I would do.


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## MEM2020

I have always said you remind me of her.



Trenton said:


> Oh so funny! Your wife reminds me of myself. I would absolutely do that to make my point. I was actually laughing while reading this.
> 
> My husband and I don't have the same dynamic since he's never approached me about how often we have sex so I'd have no reason to do what your wife is doing here...but if in your situation I'm fairly certain that what she has done is exactly what I would do.


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## Trenton

MEM11363 said:


> I have always said you remind me of her.


Good luck with her then, you will need it!


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## MEM2020

Fuukk me. I am in a completely defenseless position here. She is following variant 2 of the golden rule:

Do unto others as they have been doing unto you. 

I am going to suukk it up and take my punishment. Get this - last night I was acting kind of lukewarm just before bed. 3 times in 24 hours is the outer edge of endurance for me. She gets fully in "character" as me and says "You don't seem to WANT to do it tonight, how do you think that makes me feel"? 

This of course forces me into character as her and I responded with "So sorry - I am good to go - really I promise". 

Oh - and part of my mis-step on Saturday involved a comment about another couple and an 18 month time duration. So she is pretending (or I really am screwed beyond belief) that this new 2/day or 3/day schedule will last for 18 months. 

If you wear out your pnis, or break it from overuse, can you get a transplant? I guess the giver has to die in an accident. Not quite like giving a kidney eh?





Trenton said:


> Good luck with her then, you will need it!


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## Conrad

MEM,

This is a pharmacist to patient post:

If you really want to turn the tables, I can give you some leads on some reputable international websites that will fill your medicine cabinet with just what you need.

She will eventually beg for mercy and you will die with a smile on your face.


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## MEM2020

Thanks Man. 

I will PM you. She knows she can crush me in terms of endurance. And at risk of grossly TMI there is no "I will just give her oral". Nope. She just says "you know that isn't what I NEED". So this is a "hard on" or bust situation. 

I WILL beg for mercy via body language starting in a few days. This just needs to run its course. 

And Conrad - buddy - I am near certain you have a higher drive than I do. 





Conrad said:


> MEM,
> 
> This is a pharmacist to patient post:
> 
> If you really want to turn the tables, I can give you some leads on some reputable international websites that will fill your medicine cabinet with just what you need.
> 
> She will eventually beg for mercy and you will die with a smile on your face.


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## Trenton

I am guessing what your wife actually wants is recognition from you that at times you are less than understanding and selfish of her perceptions (aren't we all). 

The question is, how can you give her that without having to admit you're wrong in a way that gives up the intensity and strength she admires in you?

You'll figure it out. I have no doubt and I am also guessing that she is enjoying watching you squirm and curious to see your next move.


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## Runs like Dog

We should all have such a dilemma.


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## MEM2020

Yeah she is loving making me squirm. She expects me to take it like a man. So I will do the best I can. 




Trenton said:


> I am guessing what your wife actually wants is recognition from you that at times you are less than understanding and selfish of her perceptions (aren't we all).
> 
> The question is, how can you give her that without having to admit you're wrong in a way that gives up the intensity and strength she admires in you?
> 
> You'll figure it out. I have no doubt and I am also guessing that she is enjoying watching you squirm and curious to see your next move.


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## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> TAnd Conrad - buddy - I am near certain you have a higher drive than I do.


Pent up demand from 20 years of lethargic hell.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Exactly why are you gripin' MEM. To quote Chandler Bing from Friends "My wallet's too small for my fifties AND MY DIAMOND SHOES ARE TOO TIGHT." 

**Wink**


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## tobio

MEM

These things your W is saying to you... Are these things you have said previously that have upset her (when you say you were being a jerk about frequency) or are these things you have said more recently?


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## MEM2020

*The Golden Question*

Tobio,
This is recent behavior - like in the last year. She isn't a saint, and I'm not a demon. That said I am more the guilty party than she is. 



tobio said:


> MEM
> 
> These things your W is saying to you... Are these things you have said previously that have upset her (when you say you were being a jerk about frequency) or are these things you have said more recently?


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## MEM2020

Brennan,
How about this. Lets say you had 21 years that was on occasion below (but not much below) your target frequency and quality was outstanding. So you don't really have a pent up demand - or if so - it is really minor. 

Now - think of your target frequency. Whatever is perfect for you. 

Now multiply it by AT LEAST 4 and maybe 6. Oh - and then remember I am a MAN. I have a hydraulic system needs to function. If I just needed to get wet - I could get a bottle of KY. That is not the case. At some level this is "funny" to her. But she is very intent on making a point and I am guessing she is going to do this until certain that I have "gotten the message". She is succeeding so far - I haven't felt this much guilt in a loooonnnnngggg time.






Brennan said:


> Exactly why are you gripin' MEM. To quote Chandler Bing from Friends "My wallet's too small for my fifties AND MY DIAMOND SHOES ARE TOO TIGHT."
> 
> **Wink**


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## SimplyAmorous

Ok, I am just curious here.

HOW do you know -for absolute certainty - she doesn't REALLY TRULY want it 2-3 times a day? You know it is very possible at her age to come into this. 

Is this all about having you finally realize how she used to feel?


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## WhereAmI

I love your wife.

That's all.


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## MEM2020

My "guess" she isn't angry. Not really. She is simply determined to break this pattern. And I believe that she thinks this is the best way to break "my" pattern. I actually think she is right. I am NOT enjoying being the LD spouse. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok, I am just curious here.
> 
> HOW do you know -for absolute certainty - she doesn't REALLY TRULY want it 2-3 times a day? You know it is very possible at her age to come into this.
> 
> Is this all about having you finally realize how she used to feel?


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Brennan,
> How about this. Lets say you had 21 years that was on occasion below (but not much below) your target frequency and quality was outstanding. So you don't really have a pent up demand - or if so - it is really minor.
> 
> Now - think of your target frequency. Whatever is perfect for you.
> 
> Now multiply it by AT LEAST 4 and maybe 6. Oh - and then remember I am a MAN. I have a hydraulic system needs to function. If I just needed to get wet - I could get a bottle of KY. That is not the case. At some level this is "funny" to her. But she is very intent on making a point and I am guessing she is going to do this until certain that I have "gotten the message". She is succeeding so far - I haven't felt this much guilt in a loooonnnnngggg time.


MEM,
I hope you know I was joking around. It was more a nod to Runs like Dog when he said "we should all have such troubles".
Ok, now I will never think of hydraulics quite the same way again. 
Didn't mean to offend at all. Thought I would interject some light hearted humor.


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## bill2011

MEM, suck it up , pop some pills and enjoy the ride. If you could pull it off you can tell her you are beginning to enjoy this level of activity (you'd really have to sell it).


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## MEM2020

Brennan,
No offence at all. Your humor is definitely welcome. Sorry if I sound defensive. This has an entertaining aspect to it which is easier to appreciate after a couple xanax.




Brennan said:


> MEM,
> I hope you know I was joking around. It was more a nod to Runs like Dog when he said "we should all have such troubles".
> Ok, now I will never think of hydraulics quite the same way again.
> Didn't mean to offend at all. Thought I would interject some light hearted humor.


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## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> My "guess" she isn't angry. Not really. She is simply determined to break this pattern. And I believe that she thinks this is the best way to break "my" pattern. I actually think she is right. I am NOT enjoying being the LD spouse.


Ha ha -that is funny then. I guess I thought you 2 was on a even keel these days, I guess she feels you have something to learn. I think you should take Conrads advice & hammer her good. 

THANK GOD me & my husband are finally in a similar place. Although he won't say it outright, I KNOW I was over doing it -pushing him.


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## MEM2020

Bill,
I wish. She will stop when she is convinced I "get it" and also that she has inflicted a "fair" amount of anxiety. 




bill2011 said:


> MEM, suck it up , pop some pills and enjoy the ride. If you could pull it off you can tell her you are beginning to enjoy this level of activity (you'd really have to sell it).


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## bill2011

A woman who is out to prove a point will stop at nothing. You better make it a good run or your alpha status will be in jeopardy - LOL


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Bill,
> I wish. She will stop when she is convinced I "get it" and also that she has inflicted a "fair" amount of anxiety.


Okay, I will gently tip toe here. You did post not too long ago that you in essence suggested that you seek gratification elsewhere if she is not willing/able to do so. No doubt that inflicted a GREAT deal of anxiety on her. Isn't turnaround fair play? :scratchhead:


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## LonelyNLost

WhereAmI said:


> I love your wife.
> 
> That's all.


:iagree:


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## Catherine602

Hold it, I'm still clearing the water out of my nose. I could not resist posting. 

WHAT!!! Someone who can nearly out-MEM ..... MEM himself and she living with him. You must have done something very good or very bad in a past life. 

You wife is so perfect for you. She is deep and she knows how to kick your aaazzzz. Keep her under surveillance from now on MEM, I don't think this is the only earth shaking move she has for you. 

Do you remember that conversation you guys had during a long walk you posted about awhile back? She may have been planning her move all that time and she may be a few moves ahead of you. 

I don't think she is going to let you off the hook in a week. You guys are only in the middle game of the match and she just checked you. You have a long way to go. Good luck, I places a $2 dollar bet on you so you better win.


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## MEM2020

And THAT was exactly the interaction she was mimicking this morning with her comment about seeking gratification elsewhere. Yes Brennan - karma is indeed a beetch. Still - that actually is oddly enough not her main issue. She KNOWS she provoked a strong reaction with her comments prior to me reacting that way. 

Still - there is an element of theater here. I have NEVER said to her "your quota is X" fill it or else. We have a soft understanding that gaps of 5 days or more are not good. And she is good about making sure those are very rare and when we are clicking we connect 2-3-4 times a week. 

Her thing in summary is: "I am a REALLY good W in and out of bed, when we have the occasional hiccup, be NICE about it". And ultimately that is fair. 

Going forward I am resolved to simply smile and say "I miss you" or "I really would like to connect soon" when there is a hiccup. 




Brennan said:


> Okay, I will gently tip toe here. You did post not too long ago that you in essence suggested that you seek gratification elsewhere if she is not willing/able to do so. No doubt that inflicted a GREAT deal of anxiety on her. Isn't turnaround fair play? :scratchhead:


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> Hold it, I'm still clearing the water out of my nose. I could not resist posting.
> 
> WHAT!!! Someone who can nearly out-MEM ..... MEM himself and she living with him. You must have done something very good or very bad in a past life.
> 
> You wife is so perfect for you. She is deep and she knows how to kick your aaazzzz. Keep her under surveillance from now on MEM, I don't think this is the only earth shaking move she has for you.
> 
> Do you remember that conversation you guys had during a long walk you posted about awhile back? She may have been planning her move all that time.
> 
> I don't think she is going to let you off the hook in a week. You guys are only in the middle game of the match and she just checked you. You have a long way to go. Good luck, I places a $2 dollar bet on you so you better win.


"Someone who can out-Mem himself?" Stranger things have happened. A person managed to post a shorter response than Conrad. Didn't even think that was possible. 

Yes, Catherine! The convo during the walk is exactly what I just mentioned. She's been planning this for awhile. Women don't tend to let words like those slide. 
Mem, you might need something blue, a padded headboard, some Doan's back pills, ace bandage wraps, Icy Hot, benadryl for swelling and above all....a heating pad. I don't see this ending in a week either.


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## MEM2020

Brennan and Catherine,
My hands are literally sweating now. More than a week. 

One year - out of the blue - she went into 2/day mode. Stayed there for most of that year. But I was THIRTY SIX back then. It was great. NOW - come on. 




Brennan said:


> "Someone who can out-Mem himself?" Stranger things have happened. A person managed to post a shorter response than Conrad. Didn't even think that was possible.
> 
> Yes, Catherine! The convo during the walk is exactly what I just mentioned. She's been planning this for awhile. Women don't tend to let words like those slide.
> Mem, you might need something blue, a padded headboard, some Doan's back pills, ace bandage wraps, Icy Hot, benadryl for swelling and above all....a heating pad. I don't see this ending in a week either.


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## MEM2020

SA,
I pray - PRAY you are wrong. The day after a conflict in which 18 months features - she mentions we are going 3/days for 18 months. 

I actually WILL let her take the pool boy on if she really needs that much action. I will just look the other way. I will not survive 18 months at that ummmm activity level. 

To quote WC Fields:
I don't believe in coincidences. They are too coincidental. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok, I am just curious here.
> 
> HOW do you know -for absolute certainty - she doesn't REALLY TRULY want it 2-3 times a day? You know it is very possible at her age to come into this.
> 
> Is this all about having you finally realize how she used to feel?


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Brennan and Catherine,
> My hands are literally sweating now. More than a week.
> 
> One year - out of the blue - she went into 2/day mode. Stayed there for most of that year. But I was THIRTY SIX back then. It was great. NOW - come on.


She won't see it that way, my dear. Afterall, you didn't give her the same consideration. The whole "just use lube" is quite a bit different than "I'm wet". She has a point to prove and she WILL prove it.

Go hit up Walgreens. I'll buy stock in it tomorrow when the trading market opens. I have a feeling you will be a regular there. Quarterly dividends will probably be stellar.


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## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> "Someone who can out-Mem himself?" Stranger things have happened. A person managed to post a shorter response than Conrad. Didn't even think that was possible.
> 
> Yes, Catherine! The convo during the walk is exactly what I just mentioned. She's been planning this for awhile. Women don't tend to let words like those slide.
> Mem, you might need something blue, a padded headboard, some Doan's back pills, ace bandage wraps, Icy Hot, benadryl for swelling and above all....a heating pad. I don't see this ending in a week either.


Stop it I'm drowning over here. :nono: 

Who wrote a shorter post then Conrad, how can you write less than one letter. :scratchhead: What was it??

You remember that walk too. That is one of the stand outs of all of the post I have ever read on this forum. Women NEVER forget, ever.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> Stop it I'm drowning over here. :nono:
> 
> Who wrote a shorter post then Conrad, how can you write less than one letter. :scratchhead: What was it??
> 
> You remember that walk too. That is one of the stand outs of all of the post I have ever read on this forum. Women NEVER forget, ever.


When he wrote that and all the guys where high fiving him I was like "Ohhhh, you are sooooo getting paid back".

As for a post shorter than Conrad, it was literally a dude poking a stick.


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## MEM2020

In hindsight I am starting to think that it might have been a lower risk approach to simply rapidly drop the temperature to "very cold" when she made her nasty comment about sex. That would have worked. My father always taught me the value of the "minimal use of force" doctrine. I violated it. Now I am getting violated. It just seemed so "clever" at the time. Now that I am getting trussed up in my own "spidey" silk it seems WAY less clever. 




Brennan said:


> She won't see it that way, my dear. Afterall, you didn't give her the same consideration. The whole "just use lube" is quite a bit different than "I'm wet". She has a point to prove and she WILL prove it.
> 
> Go hit up Walgreens. I'll buy stock in it tomorrow when the trading market opens. I have a feeling you will be a regular there. Quarterly dividends will probably be stellar.


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## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> She won't see it that way, my dear. Afterall, you didn't give her the same consideration. The whole "just use lube" is quite a bit different than "I'm wet". She has a point to prove and she WILL prove it.
> 
> Go hit up Walgreens. I'll buy stock in it tomorrow when the trading market opens. I have a feeling you will be a regular there. Quarterly dividends will probably be stellar.



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'm going to buy 100 futures, right now. I'll give it 6 months. Pfizer too for that matter.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> I'm going to buy 100 futures, right now. I'll give it 6 months. Pfizer too for that matter.


Call options for the win!


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## notaname

MEM11363 said:


> Her thing in summary is: "I am a REALLY good W in and out of bed, when we have the occasional hiccup, be NICE about it". And ultimately that is fair.
> 
> Going forward I am resolved to simply smile and say "I miss you" or "I really would like to connect soon" when there is a hiccup.


That rocks.

Maybe you could bring in some ice packs after your next session and just smile as you hand her one.


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## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> When he wrote that and all the guys where high fiving him I was like "Ohhhh, you are sooooo getting paid back".
> 
> As for a post shorter than Conrad, it was literally a dude poking a stick.


I remember that but I didn't get the joke. 

How did you know she was going to do anything? I guess I am thinking like me, I would just do what he wanted and deal and I thought she would too. 

I remember thinking, poor lady, when MEM made that comment about getting his needs met elsewhere. I thought he had balls now she is milking those bad boys dry.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> I remember that but I didn't get the joke.
> 
> How did you know she was going to do anything? I guess I am thinking like me, I would just do what he wanted and deal and I thought she would too.
> 
> I remember thinking, poor lady, when MEM made that comment about getting his needs met elsewhere. I thought he had balls now she is milking those bad boys dry.


For the previous post somebody just typed "W" and then the next person used a dude poking a stick. Nice Guy comes on and says I guess he understands Conrad's "use fewer words" approach. Pretty funny.

As for what Mem said to his wife. Well, I admit, I gasped when he said it. I knew though that she is smart enough to understand turn around and she would bide her time. She played it BRILLIANTLY.

Hey Mem, under the "what would your porn name be" thread a guy came on and said Robbie Rawballs. I think that will be your "unofficial" new name.


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## Catherine602

I made some chicken soup for you MEN.

I was going to use crow but those things are a beach to catch. 

/Users/paulettetempro/Desktop/istockphoto_336034-funny-chicken-soup.jpg


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine,
Unless that chicken soup is laced with PCP, it ain't going to help what he is about to be put through.


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## Catherine602

Lets have a contest for the best porn name for MEM. i like Hardalong11312. The numbers refers to the date the name will be retired. I don't think I need to spell things out here.


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## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> I knew though that she is smart enough to understand turn around and she would bide her time. She played it BRILLIANTLY.


She plays chess, she must, if not she should.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> She plays chess, she must, if not she should.


I think MEM is throwing up lunch reading our banter. Porn name? I still stand by Robbie Rawballs....at least in 14 days he will be.

After that? John Wayne Bobbitt and won't be because somebody actually cut it off.


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## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> After that? John Wayne Bobbitt and won't be because somebody actually cut it off.


He will want to do that most likely.

NOT he's a man he will not part with his manhood, no matter how much agony he is in. Besides It will be better than ever, it got a chemical peel - very slowly and incrementally. What would you call a chemical peel for the P, 
He went away, poor baby. 

Well got to go but I will come back and see if he can use the keyboard in his dazed and weakened state. I n the meantime I will say a prayer........ for his wife.

This is good, real good. I cant wait to read what he thinks after he recovers, if his brain's not fried, after all, she is f**king them out. Perhaps I will say a prayer after all....... just less fervent than the one for his wife.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Mem's training like Rocky right now or he's at Walgreens. He won't be back for a while either.


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## Catherine602

What body part do you speculate he is using to weight-lift ???


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## Therealbrighteyes

His ego.


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## Trenton

Ladies...you are cracking me up!


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## greenpearl

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

MEM,

Your thread started me a happy day. 

I like your wife! 

Yes, that's what women should do when their husbands want a lot. Just give them, give them a lot, tire them out, worn their penises. 

Yeah,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:smthumbup:


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## reachingshore

MEM11363 said:


> My "guess" she isn't angry. Not really. She is simply determined to break this pattern. And I believe that she thinks this is the best way to break "my" pattern. I actually think she is right. I am NOT enjoying being the LD spouse.


MEM, if this situation continues for some time I'd be really interested in knowing how a man deals psychologically and emotionally with the tables turned. That is, him now being the LD spouse and if/whether this realization does or doesn't additionally influence a man's, uh, performance.


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## Therealbrighteyes

On second thought MEM, can you just PM me the name of your local hospital. I will see if they are part of a for profit conglomerate and therefore public. I need to diversify into healthcare a bit more. **Wink**


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## greenpearl

Reaching, 

It is easy for us to give, we just need to open our legs, but they have to thrust and pump, it is a lot of work for them! 

Just wish all women on TAM know about this and do what MEM's wife is doing, Yeah...........................awesome, tire them out........................


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## MEM2020

*compensation*

Reaching,
When I was in college folks would pay you to participate in their clinical drug trials. Looks like I may be forced to be an unpaid lab rat in this table turning HD/LD process. 

Normally if I have a "critical systems failure" during connection I feel like a loser. Luckily that has only happened a handful of times in our 21 years of play. 

In this case - I am being pushed way beyond my design tolerance so if that should happen I am just going to say "Sorry I am doing the best that I can and am more than happy to slide down and .....". As for how I will feel. Perfectly fine. It would be like you asking me to run a 5 minute mile - I EXPECT to fail. 

I NEVER expected her to design a tactic this devilishly clever. To do so and then blitz me with it. Brilliant. 

That said I have offered to surrender several times. I have asked for terms. I have offered unconditional surrender. She is having none of it. For now I will sweat. 



reachingshore said:


> MEM, if this situation continues for some time I'd be really interested in knowing how a man deals psychologically and emotionally with the tables turned. That is, him now being the LD spouse and if/whether this realization does or doesn't additionally influence a man's, uh, performance.


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## MEM2020

Brennan,
OK - so the performance anxiety is real. I think I am contradicting what I just posted a moment ago so I will clarify. If I have a performance "problem" in the near future I KNOW what that part of the mirror looks like. She is going to do some version of "Are you not attracted to me anymore"? Which is something that I may have said to her, here and there in the past. I was provoked though - so it was different. But context is not going to protect me. She just laughs and says "Oh lets not split hairs". And then she goes back to glaring at me. 

So if I fail "soon" I will get the 'not attracted question'. And then no matter what I say I am going to get: "Don't be silly, you aren't THAT old" and "you can be honest with me - really".

If however I can perform for at least a week - then I am going to come back with "You find me ONE couple we know who has connected 14 times in 7 days and we can talk about me and my performance problems/supposed lack of attraction". 

So that is my goal. To manage to avoid a ummm failure for a week. 




Brennan said:


> On second thought MEM, can you just PM me the name of your local hospital. I will see if they are part of a for profit conglomerate and therefore public. I need to diversify into healthcare a bit more. **Wink**


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

*Re: compensation*



MEM11363 said:


> Reaching,
> When I was in college folks would pay you to participate in their clinical drug trials. Looks like I may be forced to be an unpaid lab rat in this table turning HD/LD process.
> 
> Normally if I have a "critical systems failure" during connection I feel like a loser. Luckily that has only happened a handful of times in our 21 years of play.
> 
> In this case - I am being pushed way beyond my design tolerance so if that should happen I am just going to say "Sorry I am doing the best that I can and am more than happy to slide down and .....". As for how I will feel. Perfectly fine. It would be like you asking me to run a 5 minute mile - I EXPECT to fail.
> 
> I NEVER expected her to design a tactic this devilishly clever. To do so and then blitz me with it. Brilliant.
> 
> That said I have offered to surrender several times. I have asked for terms. I have offered unconditional surrender. She is having none of it. For now I will sweat.


Oh hey MEM. I thought you would be training PX90 style right about now. Where do I send Mrs. MEM her basket of fruit. She not only is brilliant but well yeah, BRILLIANT. If hubby would have said the same thing to me, I probably would have been very hurt. She turned it around to make it not only hilarious but a valuable lesson. Did ya stop at Walgreen's yet? Do you at least own a hottub or at least a bathtub you can fit in to soak in an Epson salt bath?


----------



## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> His ego.


He he he 
MEM Got a question - multiple choice which of the following tv shows will tonight session be described as?
a. Rin tin tin
b. Rawhide
c. Roy Rodgers and Trigger 
d. Masterpiece theate
e. Cops
f. All of the above

Anybody know a recipe for a road rash poultice for ?? 

Words of encouragement Ride Em Cowboy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## reachingshore

*Re: compensation*



MEM11363 said:


> Reaching,
> When I was in college folks would pay you to participate in their clinical drug trials. Looks like I may be forced to be an unpaid lab rat in this table turning HD/LD process.
> 
> Normally if I have a "critical systems failure" during connection I feel like a loser. Luckily that has only happened a handful of times in our 21 years of play.
> 
> In this case - I am being pushed way beyond my design tolerance so if that should happen I am just going to say "Sorry I am doing the best that I can and am more than happy to slide down and .....". As for how I will feel. Perfectly fine. It would be like you asking me to run a 5 minute mile - I EXPECT to fail.
> 
> I NEVER expected her to design a tactic this devilishly clever. To do so and then blitz me with it. Brilliant.
> 
> That said I have offered to surrender several times. I have asked for terms. I have offered unconditional surrender. She is having none of it. For now I will sweat.


Lab rat?  Well, anything towards the further discoveries and insights about male-female relationship dynamics  Your "sacrifice" is noted and appreciated 

The reason I am asking you this is because you are in a somewhat unique position. You know why what's happening is happening. And you know it for a fact. And you can see the humor of/in it. So you can kind of step back and look at the situation from a male LD perspective with a somewhat unbiased eye.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Brennan,
> OK - so the performance anxiety is real. I think I am contradicting what I just posted a moment ago so I will clarify. If I have a performance "problem" in the near future I KNOW what that part of the mirror looks like. She is going to do some version of "Are you not attracted to me anymore"? Which is something that I may have said to her, here and there in the past. I was provoked though - so it was different. But context is not going to protect me. She just laughs and says "Oh lets not split hairs". And then she goes back to glaring at me.
> 
> So if I fail "soon" I will get the 'not attracted question'. And then no matter what I say I am going to get: "Don't be silly, you aren't THAT old" and "you can be honest with me - really".
> 
> If however I can perform for at least a week - then I am going to come back with "You find me ONE couple we know who has connected 14 times in 7 days and we can talk about me and my performance problems/supposed lack of attraction".
> 
> So that is my goal. To manage to avoid a ummm failure for a week.


Ok, all kidding aside, performance anxiety is real for both men AND women. You were pretty dismissive when she was feeling it and from your previous post the message I got loud and clear was that regardless if she was in pain, not feeling it, whatever the reason you in essence implied that since she just has a hole, she really only has to lube up and lay there. Wrong. Then you had the audacity to say that you would find somebody else is she was unwilling. That's a pretty crappy thing to say to the woman you love. There is no doubt in my mind that this hurt her. She IS going to test you now. Let's face it....you did EXACTLY the same thing to her. I also agree with Catherine, this isn't a one week test.


----------



## MEM2020

LOL. 

Masterpiece Theater. Because there is going to be some subtle psychological terrorism before hand. I am going to go:
1. Lift weights
2. Take some ginko and ginseng
3. Pray for divine guidance
4. Prepare myself to project a happy and sexual vibe as anything less is going to be met with some nasty variation OF MY OWN PAST BAD BEHAVIOR. 

I am hoping that if I do everything RIGHT that she will be the "nice" me that I am when she does everything right. Then again I am fairly sure her response to me doing that will be "You seem so happy at 2/day, think how much happier you will be at 3/day". 

I am going to go stand in front of the bathroom mirror and practice some expressions that convey fear, anxiety and a silent plea for mercy all at once.....

I would swear on a stack o bibles NONE of this stuff seemed that bad when I was doing it to her. It sure feels VERY different being the recipient.  



Catherine602 said:


> He he he
> MEM Got a question - multiple choice which of the following tv shows will tonight session be described as?
> a. Rin tin tin
> b. Rawhide
> c. Roy Rodgers and Trigger
> d. Masterpiece theate
> e. Cops
> f. All of the above
> 
> Anybody know a recipe for a road rash poultice for ??
> 
> Words of encouragement Ride Em Cowboy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

Which of the following tunes will most closely resemble Mrs. MEN's state of mind tomorrow morn?
a. I fought the law and the law won
b. Pround Mary
c. Love is like a ball and chain
d. Bad to the bone
e. ain't too proud to beg
f. I put a spell on you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

A mashup of B,D and F. 



Catherine602 said:


> Which of the following tunes will most closely resemble Mrs. MEN's state of mind tomorrow morn?
> a. I fought the law and the law won
> b. Pround Mary
> c. Love is like a ball and chain
> d. Bad to the bone
> e. ain't too proud to beg
> f. I put a spell on you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> He he he
> MEM Got a question - multiple choice which of the following tv shows will tonight session be described as?
> a. Rin tin tin
> b. Rawhide
> c. Roy Rodgers and Trigger
> d. Masterpiece theate
> e. Cops
> f. All of the above
> 
> Anybody know a recipe for a road rash poultice for ??
> 
> Words of encouragement Ride Em Cowboy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tonight will be Hawaii Five-Oooooooo.
Tomorrow will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhh.
Next night will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhh, sh!t.
Night after will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhhh, help me.
Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhh, I need a doctor.
Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhh, call an ambulance.
Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhhh, call the undertaker.


----------



## michzz

Brennan said:


> Tonight will be Hawaii Five-Oooooooo.
> Tomorrow will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhh.
> Next night will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhh, sh!t.
> Night after will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhhh, help me.
> Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhh, I need a doctor.
> Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhh, call an ambulance.
> Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhhh, call the undertaker.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Draguna

DAMN, this thread is amazing... I know I could perform 1 week on 3x a day, but more than that.... damn... it would fall off and tell me it is not what he signed up for. Then take the sack with him as it is where he keeps all his valuables.


----------



## Catherine602

Brennen
I think this is life and we are lucky MEM is sharing this with us. He is quick to acknowledge that he wants to rethink things and the chance to grow from the experience. If he were a small person he would have reacted with anger maybe or some other negativity. But he did, not he is processing this experience. How many times in you life do you face yourself and are asked to reflect? If you never have then you did not recognize you, if you recognized you you may have rationalized and continued as you are you may have been angry at the unfairness of life. Or you can recognized accept you and honestly appraise. 

I don't think MEM is a bad man who has done anything bad. I think he is in the top 25 percentile of spouse if you rate goodness. In fact I feel this is not the first time his wife has given him a run for his money, sounds she has had a lot of practice. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> Tonight will be Hawaii Five-Oooooooo.
> Tomorrow will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhh.
> Next night will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhh, sh!t.
> Night after will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhhh, help me.
> Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhh, I need a doctor.
> Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhh, call an ambulance.
> Night after that will be Hawaii Five-Ohhhhhhhhh, call the undertaker.


Will you stop it ! now hot tea came out of my nose. Geeze
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> Brennen
> I think this is life and we are lucky MEM is sharing this with us. He is quick to acknowledge that he wants to rethink things and the chance to grow from the experience. If he were a small person he would have reacted with anger maybe or some other negativity. But he did, not he is processing this experience. How many times in you life do you face yourself and are asked to reflect? If you never have then you did not recognize you, if you recognized you you may have rationalized and continued as you are you may have been angry at the unfairness of life. Or you can recognized accept you and honestly appraise.
> 
> I don't think MEM is a bad man who has done anything bad. I think he is in the top 25 percentile of spouse if you rate goodness. In fact I feel this is not the first time his wife has given him a run for his money, sounds she has had a lot of practice. .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I *ADORE* Mem! I have listed him often in my posts of wise and sage men on this board. Please don't get me wrong! If I didn't like him, I wouldn't be teasing him about this. What was so shocking about what he posted a few months ago was his approach and I WAS disappointed in him....for the first time. It seemed cruel and out of his character. Now the shoe is on the other foot and yes, it IS a little humorous. His wife sounds amazing and they really sound like an awesome pair. She called him out (as did he to her) and she is putting him to task.


----------



## MEM2020

Read my prior posts. I felt absolutely sick about it when she told me she had been in pain. When your partner likes things on the rougher side it is very hard to discern real pain. 

Most of her performance anxiety came from a lack of desire, and she was definitely afraid to discuss it with me. And that "fear" is on me because I created it over a long period of time. So she had to reach true fury to express it because it took a lot of anger to overcome that fear. Sadly the way she communicated in that very angry state produced an extremely aggressive response from me. 

But that was at the tail end of a year where I knew her desire was low and basically let her initiate. I wasn't getting her to the rapture hardly at all - yes I felt bad about that - and I knew her desire level was low. In hindsight I should have raised the whole topic and let her feel safe being honest with me. Hindsight and all that. But DURING that year I let her initiate because I could tell her desire wasn't there. I did NOT like our frequency of just over once a week but I never complained. On the contrary I was extra nice as I knew she was operating purely out of love - what with the lust having gone absent. 

Wow. I so do not think of her as a hole. That is very far from the mark. 



Brennan said:


> Ok, all kidding aside, performance anxiety is real for both men AND women. You were pretty dismissive when she was feeling it and from your previous post the message I got loud and clear was that regardless if she was in pain, not feeling it, whatever the reason you in essence implied that since she just has a hole, she really only has to lube up and lay there. Wrong. Then you had the audacity to say that you would find somebody else is she was unwilling. That's a pretty crappy thing to say to the woman you love. There is no doubt in my mind that this hurt her. She IS going to test you now. Let's face it....you did EXACTLY the same thing to her. I also agree with Catherine, this isn't a one week test.


----------



## Catherine602

MEM11363 said:


> LOL.
> 
> Masterpiece Theater. Because there is going to be some subtle psychological terrorism before hand. I am going to go:
> vibe as anything less is going to be met with some nasty variation OF MY OWN PAST BAD BEHAVIOR.
> .  [/OUOTE]
> 
> oh no the sleeping lion is waking up, it there any way to worn Mrs MEM??? she is aware I am sure of you devious ways MEM. Like the Japanese after Pearl Habor, she knew if you did not cry uncle in a week she would lose the war.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Draguna

Mem, seems I missed it. Which post exactly? I try to keep up with you, but I do forget things.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Read my prior posts. I felt absolutely sick about it when she told me she had been in pain. When your partner likes things on the rougher side it is very hard to discern real pain.
> 
> Most of her performance anxiety came from a lack of desire, and she was definitely afraid to discuss it with me. And that "fear" is on me because I created it over a long period of time. So she had to reach true fury to express it because it took a lot of anger to overcome that fear. Sadly the way she communicated in that very angry state produced an extremely aggressive response from me.
> 
> But that was at the tail end of a year where I knew her desire was low and basically let her initiate. I wasn't getting her to the rapture hardly at all - yes I felt bad about that - and I knew her desire level was low. In hindsight I should have raised the whole topic and let her feel safe being honest with me. Hindsight and all that. But DURING that year I let her initiate because I could tell her desire wasn't there. I did NOT like our frequency of just over once a week but I never complained. On the contrary I was extra nice as I knew she was operating purely out of love - what with the lust having gone absent.
> 
> Wow. I so do not think of her as a hole. That is very far from the mark.


I was wrong then MEM and I sincerely apologize. Your post was misinterpreted by me. It sounded like it was "sex at all costs" and if you don't or are not willing I will find somebody else, hence my disappointment. *Clearly* I did not get the jist of what you were trying to convey. You are a very loving husband, I know that and never doubted it. I took your post the wrong way. 
You do have to admit that what is happening now is pretty funny, right or are you really anxious and if so, I will completely lay off the humor! :scratchhead:


----------



## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> I was wrong then MEM and I sincerely apologize. Your post was misinterpreted by me. It sounded like it was "sex at all costs" and if you don't or are not willing I will find somebody else, hence my disappointment. *Clearly* I did not get the jist of what you were trying to convey. You are a very loving husband, I know that and never doubted it. I took your post the wrong way.
> You do have to admit that what is happening now is pretty funny, right or are you really anxious and if so, I will completely lay off the humor! :scratchhead:


It's all good Brennen , what you said needed to be said I think probably expressed what others were to fearful of saying. Taking on MEM is like writing Conrad a 5 page PM, bold stroke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> It's all good Brennen , what you said needed to be said I think probably expressed what others were to fearful of saying. Taking on MEM is like writing Conrad a 5 page PM, bold stroke.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Conrad and Ian Ironwood need to have a baby. The perfect wordsmith.


----------



## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> Conrad and Ian Ironwood need to have a baby. The perfect wordsmith.


Haaaaaaaaaaa no adopt
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Brennan,
We are cool. It is hard to compress real life into a thread and do it justice. I really have worked VERY hard to turn myself from Porcine to Humanoid. My W would say I have mostly succeeded.




Brennan said:


> I was wrong then MEM and I sincerely apologize. Your post was misinterpreted by me. It sounded like it was "sex at all costs" and if you don't or are not willing I will find somebody else, hence my disappointment. *Clearly* I did not get the jist of what you were trying to convey. You are a very loving husband, I know that and never doubted it. I took your post the wrong way.
> You do have to admit that what is happening now is pretty funny, right or are you really anxious and if so, I will completely lay off the humor! :scratchhead:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Brennan,
> We are cool. It is hard to compress real life into a thread and do it justice. I really have worked VERY hard to turn myself from Porcine to Humanoid. My W would say I have mostly succeeded.


Well, tonight will tell. Hawaii Five-OOOOOOOOOOOO. 

Hopefully you can stand up tomorrow and move your fingers. We DO love your input here.


----------



## MEM2020

She seems to have almost perfect recall of that little talk we had while out walking several months ago. She doesn't "directly" mention the talk as she is aware of her role in precipitating it. 

I was rather fond of the little script I used on our walk as I had spent a full day constructing a mere 60 seconds of "talk time". I believed the finished product was wrapped in multiple layers of kevlar. And indeed it truly proved impervious to any logical argument. The thing is "core" to the script was the idea of taking the pressure off "her". While true, and wholly effective it was also only half true. 

Tonight driving to racquetball she mentioned that our new "routine" was based on her awareness that I desired a higher frequency. Totally straight faced she says to me "so really this is all about me doing a better job of taking care of YOUR needs". Fuukk me. She stole my kevlar and proceeded to tie me up in it. 
I just nodded. How do you argue with your own argument without seeming like a total hypocrite?




Brennan said:


> Well, tonight will tell. Hawaii Five-OOOOOOOOOOOO.
> 
> Hopefully you can stand up tomorrow and move your fingers. We DO love your input here.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

You're screwed MEM, literally and figuratively.


----------



## MEM2020

I will do this for one week. Full stop. After that I will offer any type counseling she wants. I am agreeable to being put in the reverse position long enough to achieve a permanent "etch" of the sensation. A week is long enough for that. 





Brennan said:


> You're screwed MEM, literally and figuratively.


----------



## Neil

MEM11363 said:


> I will do this for one week. Full stop. After that I will offer any type counseling she wants. I am agreeable to being put in the reverse position long enough to achieve a permanent "etch" of the sensation. A week is long enough for that.


:rofl:

Looks like your planning a fight back


----------



## nice777guy

MEM,

I remember when you posted about your "talk" with your wife. I didn't reply because I was very conflicted. It seemed over the top, passive aggressive, and even a bit childish, but you also got RESULTS.

But at this point, you guys seem to just be playing little games with each other. And since you started this "game", it would be hard for you to say "Hey, let's stop doing this and just TALK about what's going on here."

Seems like maybe you need to stop practicing your Mental Judo so much, and learn to just talk through some of these issues in a simple, straightforward manner.

Judo is a contest. Marriage is a partnership.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> I will do this for one week. Full stop. After that I will offer any type counseling she wants. I am agreeable to being put in the reverse position long enough to achieve a permanent "etch" of the sensation. A week is long enough for that.


I don't know if you are joking here or not. 

If it is true that your wife is using this to fight back against you, I feel sorry for you. 

I have lost my respect for you! Sorry! 

I feel that you have been pushing her too much!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> I will do this for one week. Full stop. After that I will offer any type counseling she wants. I am agreeable to being put in the reverse position long enough to achieve a permanent "etch" of the sensation. A week is long enough for that.


Uh, yeah. It ain't gonna be for a week. :rofl::rofl: Like I said, hit up Walgreen's. I need a hefty ROI.


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> MEM,
> 
> I remember when you posted about your "talk" with your wife. I didn't reply because I was very conflicted. It seemed over the top, passive aggressive, and even a bit childish, but you also got RESULTS.
> 
> But at this point, you guys seem to just be playing little games with each other. And since you started this "game", it would be hard for you to say "Hey, let's stop doing this and just TALK about what's going on here."
> 
> Seems like maybe you need to stop practicing your Mental Judo so much, and learn to just talk through some of these issues in a simple, straightforward manner.


NG,

They are at their late 40's, and they still need to use this kind of game to play against each other, we see problems here! 

If it is true that his wife is doing this, I can feel his wife's frustration! 

A man who doesn't understand his wife's pain and just wants his own satisfaction, I fail to see the sweetness in this relationship!


----------



## reachingshore

Thanks Star 

I'd be more worried about MEM's wife losing respect for MEM if he vetoes the whole thing.


----------



## MEM2020

Star,
And that is exactly why - at the end of a week I am going to gently, but firmly "reset" the system. Because in way, way less than 18 months - this pace will do damage to all that complex desire circuitry in ME. I will be a sport for a week though since I need to live on the other side of this fence long enough to grasp just how difficult relentless pressure is. 




Star said:


> Reachingshore, I’m speaking from personal experience here (my situation is very different to that of Mem, my H is a VLD spouse and we are looking into causes/treatment ect so this may have a big influence in what I’m about to write) but what I can say is that for some time my drive hiked right up and I was like a machine and good to go a couple of times a day easily (still can)
> 
> My H tried his best to accommodate but in all honesty at the time I had no idea of the psychological damage I was doing and how he was really feeling, Hell I was enjoying myself and having a blast and just assumed he was too as he didn’t say otherwise, sure I could see/feel he was struggling physically sometimes (trouble reaching O sometimes, taking much longer to recover ect) but the mental side of things? I never gave a second thought to really.
> 
> It was only when we had a talk one evening and he confessed that he felt pressured and anxious about performance, worried about letting me down ect now call me selfish/stupid but it never really crossed my mind that he would feel this way, so I realised it was becoming almost like a job and an endurance rather than enjoyment for him, take my word for it having sex with someone when they are doing it out of duty or feel they have to is a horrible thing and I actually feel really sh!tty when I wonder how many times he may of felt this way in the past.
> 
> Sure, I know we all sometimes may joke about a man being given a run for his money in the bedroom, hell I even chuckled a little when I read this thread (sorry Mem) but sometimes the reality if it continues on at an unrealistic pace for long enough sex can go from being something that is enjoyable and fun into something far from that......... it then has the potential to backfire and actually create anxieties which can then be difficult to overcome (for both spouses) trust me it can get ugly.
> But of course men are all different and I don’t doubt that there are men out there that would and could go umpteen times a day, every day but my guess is most in that category are half Mem’s age (I mean no disrespect there Mem or anyone else, I’m just being a realist)
> 
> All I would say is never underestimate the negative psychological effects of putting too much pressure on a man to have sex or perform, they are after all just like us women and have feelings and physical limits (something that I feel us ladies can overlook sometimes)
> 
> Anyway that’s just my two cents (as the American’s say!) sorry if I’ve rambled.


----------



## nice777guy

greenpearl said:


> NG,
> 
> They are at their late 40's, and they still need to use this kind of game to play against each other, we see problems here!
> 
> If it is true that his wife is doing this, I can feel his wife's frustration!
> 
> A man who doesn't understand his wife's pain and just wants his own satisfaction, I fail to see the sweetness in this relationship!


Like I said - I didn't comment on the original post because it was hard to argue with the "short term" results.

I do often wonder how many people post their "won the battle" stories but then don't follow up when the "war" is over. The methods discussed in the Men's Clubhouse can certainly produce short-term results, but can they sustain a marriage for years and years?


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> Like I said - I didn't comment on the original post because it was hard to argue with the "short term" results.
> 
> I do often wonder how many people post their "won the battle" stories but then don't follow up when the "war" is over. The methods discussed in the Men's Clubhouse can certainly produce short-term results, but can they sustain a marriage for years and years?


A marriage is about understanding, giving, and receiving. 

One always puts the other one's happiness the first place. 

If he only thinks about his pleasure and ignores her pain, we see a big problem here. Vice versa. 

If she is happily and willingly giving, then it is a different story. 

A man can be strong, but he also needs to be loving. 

We all have different relationships, but the main key doesn't change. Mutual respect, trust, and love! 

When the wife is in pain, the husband is supposed to be loving and understanding instead of pushing for more sex!


----------



## Neil

nice777guy said:


> Like I said - I didn't comment on the original post because it was hard to argue with the "short term" results.
> 
> I do often wonder how many people post their "won the battle" stories but then don't follow up when the "war" is over. The methods discussed in the Men's Clubhouse can certainly produce short-term results, but can they sustain a marriage for years and years?


Yes,

You see, in my situation, I consistently failed to perform (ie be Alpha) over the years to where I was losing respect. I was doing all the things I thought she wanted and it wasn't what she actually needed.

I have gained my respect following their advice, but I am willing to wager the ones that don't continue to keep it up (ie always be looking out) and disappear from here straight away will be the ones that re-appear in a few months because they return to what they were doing.

I on the other hand have learned so much, that is now etched into my brain. Never will I ever let this situation return and never will I drop my guard.

the ones that drop their guard, are the ones that will be "repeating the past".


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
I was conflicted as well. You seem convinced that I am more alpha than I am. All I know is that when someone gets very aggressive with me - unfortunately my kneejerk is to be even more aggressive back. Not the best thing to do most of the time. 

Do you really think we haven't "talked" calmly about this many, many times? Do you really believe I ever "start" trying to resolve anything important without a sincere conversation.

Do you think SHE hasn't talked to me about what she wants (which changes a bit over time  )?






nice777guy said:


> MEM,
> 
> I remember when you posted about your "talk" with your wife. I didn't reply because I was very conflicted. It seemed over the top, passive aggressive, and even a bit childish, but you also got RESULTS.
> 
> But at this point, you guys seem to just be playing little games with each other. And since you started this "game", it would be hard for you to say "Hey, let's stop doing this and just TALK about what's going on here."
> 
> Seems like maybe you need to stop practicing your Mental Judo so much, and learn to just talk through some of these issues in a simple, straightforward manner.
> 
> Judo is a contest. Marriage is a partnership.


----------



## nice777guy

Neil said:


> Yes,
> 
> You see, in my situation, I consistently failed to perform (ie be Alpha) over the years to where I was losing respect. I was doing all the things I thought she wanted and it wasn't what she actually needed.
> 
> I have gained my respect following their advice, but I am willing to wager the ones that don't continue to keep it up (ie always be looking out) and disappear from here straight away will be the ones that re-appear in a few months because they return to what they were doing.
> 
> I on the other hand have learned so much, that is now etched into my brain. Never will I ever let this situation return and never will I drop my guard.
> 
> the ones that drop their guard, are the ones that will be "repeating the past".


So, are you in a marraige, or a contest now? Do you have a real partnership or are you always trying to stay a step ahead?

I've been on this board for over a year now and I still go back and forth on a lot of this stuff.

Is it better to be loved and respected for who you are - or is it better to hold your marriage together with smoke and mirrors while trying to live up to some "Alpha" label?

(steps down from soapbox - perplexed look still firmly planted on face...)


----------



## okeydokie

Brennan said:


> Robbie Rawballs


you rang?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> you rang?


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Nope, sorry Okey....that's MEM's new name. Errrr, at least in 7 days it is.


----------



## Neil

nice777guy said:


> So, are you in a marraige, or a contest now? Do you have a real partnership or are you always trying to stay a step ahead?
> 
> I've been on this board for over a year now and I still go back and forth on a lot of this stuff.
> 
> Is it better to be loved and respected for who you are - or is it better to hold your marriage together with smoke and mirrors while trying to live up to some "Alpha" label?
> 
> (steps down from soapbox - perplexed look still firmly planted on face...)


If I was in a "contest", the opponent would be flat out on their back right now. 

My partnership was always based on being happy together and doing things to make the other happy, whilst always remaining happy yourself.

Over the years, I was drawn to losing me, forgetting who I was. This has (no wonder) left my partner wondering who the hell I was too. So if you want to call it a contest whilst you re-establish boundries, self respect, and yourself, then call it a contest.

I simply regained me (And manning up is all about yourself).

Staying one step ahead, yes, because I was always that. 

It may not work for everyone, but it is/has for me

If you have never been alpha, then you can call it smoke and mirrors

(Kicks Soapbox into ditch) LOL


----------



## nice777guy

MEM11363 said:


> NG,
> I was conflicted as well. You seem convinced that I am more alpha than I am. All I know is that when someone gets very aggressive with me - unfortunately my kneejerk is to be even more aggressive back. Not the best thing to do most of the time.
> 
> Do you really think we haven't "talked" calmly about this many, many times? Do you really believe I ever "start" trying to resolve anything important without a sincere conversation.
> 
> Do you think SHE hasn't talked to me about what she wants (which changes a bit over time  )?


I know you tend to post more about your experiences as an Alpha - so that's probably how a lot of people here see you.

So...in this case - you talked about it. Guessing you got no results. So you DID something - still all psychological - but definitely a notch above talking. You got good short-term results. And now your wife has figured out the rules to the game and is turning the tables.

I guess we all just have to stay tuned to see if ALL of this works or not...

Btw - I AM rooting for you. I know you aren't just some Alpha beating his chest...


----------



## okeydokie

Brennan said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Nope, sorry Okey....that's MEM's new name. Errrr, at least in 7 days it is.


i patented that name is high school, he cant have it


----------



## nice777guy

Neil said:


> So if you want to call it a contest whilst you re-establish boundries, self respect, and yourself, then call it a contest.
> 
> I simply regained me (And manning up is all about yourself).


That's a contest within your own self.

Boundaries shouldn't be trip wires to be triggered unknowingly by your spouse.

MEM at some point unknowingly tripped a wire. Or maybe his wife is establishing some new boundaries and letting him figure out where they are on his own.

There may have been some straightforward communication initially, but now it sounds more like a game or a competition. 

And not just MEM competing with himself to be a better man - but now its between MEM and his wife.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

okeydokie said:


> i patented that name is high school, he cant have it


Unless it's trademarked like Deejo's Blitz Whitman, MEM can have it.


----------



## Neil

nice777guy said:


> That's a contest within your own self.
> 
> Boundaries shouldn't be trip wires to be triggered unknowingly by your spouse.
> 
> MEM at some point unknowingly tripped a wire. Or maybe his wife is establishing some new boundaries and letting him figure out where they are on his own.
> 
> There may have been some straightforward communication initially, but now it sounds more like a game or a competition.
> 
> And not just MEM competing with himself to be a better man - but now its between MEM and his wife.


ok I see where your contest comment is aimed at.

MEM openly admits him and his wife compete, and in most part it is healthy competition, it seems to keep them both on their toes.

Yes his original comments have come back to haunt him, but I don't think his wife (reading everything he puts) will actually hold him to 18 months of making him raw and blead.

She his making her point when he didn't expect it, but I suspect after a while she will back down, and MEM will take control of it to ensure it backs down.

If not, he just swallows his pride and gives it his best shot (literally) :rofl:


----------



## okeydokie

Brennan said:


> Unless it's trademarked like Deejo's Blitz Whitman, MEM can have it.


actually, yeah he can, i dont need it anymore


----------



## reachingshore

MEM, why won't you try weathering the storm?

a) if her libido is really that high now - that's one thing.
b) if she's doing that mainly to teach you a lesson, by essentially reversing the situation and "logic" you taught her, I don't see a (good) way out for you by vetoing. Even if it's physically impossible for a man to continuously have a go at it multiple times a day.

If it's option b, she is going to go at it, till she sees results. Well then give her _a result_. Get Viagra, practice tantric sex or those semen retention techniques. Go for a trip together to a sex-shop. Make sure she knows all that you are doing. At this point it's not going to be about sex anymore. It's going to be "I am doing this for you, and as a result I am doing this for our relationship". 

If it's option b, she's going to let it go pretty soon (but not in a week's time ). The whole objective would be to prove to her that what you were doing to her before she turned the tables had nothing to do about your, uh, "selfish need for sex". It was for both of you, for your relationship.

If you veto it prematurely, not only you'd probably lose her respect ("you demanded that from me and it was OK for you to do it, but now when I demand the same thing back from you..."), but also you'd give her a message that you don't care.

I really don't think she doesn't know that it would be physically impossible for you to keep up.


----------



## Deejo

I for one, despite askance views and chuckles from the gallery, really appreciate and admire your posting this.

Your wife is insidiously brilliant. Seriously. Can you possibly imagine a more effective, and less confrontational way to change _your_ perspective on the sexual dynamic of your relationship?

I am completely reserving judgment on whether or not it is warranted, a good thing, or a bad thing. I simply see it as an utterly brilliant testament to the fact that the two of you are without question, very engaged, invested in, aware of, and in tune with your marriage.

She's like an evil genius, MEM. That should fill you with dread, and desire.

And yet again, different strokes for different folks. I for one, think that competition and game playing can make for passion and excitement - rather than control or uncertainty. The relationship will seek out it's 'emotional equilibrium' based upon the participants.

I suspect that both MEM and his wife each have the others number. They enjoy it. Maybe one more so than the other times, eh MEM?


----------



## okeydokie

Deejo said:


> Your wife is insidiously brilliant.


so i guess mine is......the opposite


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I for one, despite askance views and chuckles from the gallery, really appreciate and admire your posting this.
> 
> Your wife is insidiously brilliant. Seriously. Can you possibly imagine a more effective, and less confrontational way to change _your_ perspective on the sexual dynamic of your relationship?
> 
> I am completely reserving judgment on whether or not it is warranted, a good thing, or a bad thing. I simply see it as an utterly brilliant testament to the fact that the two of you are without question, very engaged, invested in, aware of, and in tune with your marriage.
> 
> She's like an evil genius, MEM. That should fill you with dread, and desire.
> 
> And yet again, different strokes for different folks. I for one, think that competition and game playing can make for passion and excitement - rather than control or uncertainty. The relationship will seek out it's 'emotional equilibrium' based upon the participants.
> 
> I suspect that both MEM and his wife each have the others number. They enjoy it. Maybe one more so than the other times, eh MEM?


She IS brilliant. The only thing that would knock her in to the stratosphere is if she dressed up like a dominatrix and "punished" him.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> I for one, despite askance views and chuckles from the gallery, really appreciate and admire your posting this.
> 
> Your wife is insidiously brilliant. Seriously. Can you possibly imagine a more effective, and less confrontational way to change _your_ perspective on the sexual dynamic of your relationship?
> 
> I am completely reserving judgment on whether or not it is warranted, a good thing, or a bad thing. I simply see it as an utterly brilliant testament to the fact that the two of you are without question, very engaged, invested in, aware of, and in tune with your marriage.
> 
> She's like an evil genius, MEM. That should fill you with dread, and desire.
> 
> And yet again, different strokes for different folks. I for one, think that competition and game playing can make for passion and excitement - rather than control or uncertainty. The relationship will seek out it's 'emotional equilibrium' based upon the participants.
> 
> I suspect that both MEM and his wife each have the others number. They enjoy it. Maybe one more so than the other times, eh MEM?


First of all - yes - a big *thank you *MEM for giving us all a ringside seat to something so personal. Even though none of us really know you, it still takes a lot of guts to share this stuff.

And just to clarify - I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong - just hoping you guys get through this with minimal collateral damage!


----------



## BlackMedicine357

Catherine602 said:


> Which of the following tunes will most closely resemble Mrs. MEN's state of mind tomorrow morn?
> a. I fought the law and the law won
> b. Pround Mary
> c. Love is like a ball and chain
> d. Bad to the bone
> e. ain't too proud to beg
> f. I put a spell on you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm late to the game here, but I couldn't help contributing a title for MEM's video taped session tonight (should they choose to do so.)

*Crouching MEM, Hidden Wifey!*

Black


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM,
You still alive? Hydration is the key.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> MEM,
> You still alive? Hydration is the key.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Catherine602

I wonder if Mrs MEM can find the directions on how to reconstitute a MEM. I suppose she can google it the manual must be online. I am worried, should we send out the virtual troops or just wait and pray. What if she decides to tie him up and have her way with him. I can picture it, although I don't want to but I can't help it, MEM, spread eagle being force fed the little blue pills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

In her evil genious mind, Mrs. Mem is force feeding him Viagra and having him chug it down with Gatorade. She ain't stupid, ya know!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Anybody heard from MEM? Is he chained in a basement somewhere or perhaps getting an MRI?


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> I for one, despite askance views and chuckles from the gallery, really appreciate and admire your posting this.
> 
> Your wife is insidiously brilliant. Seriously. Can you possibly imagine a more effective, and less confrontational way to change _your_ perspective on the sexual dynamic of your relationship?
> 
> I am completely reserving judgment on whether or not it is warranted, a good thing, or a bad thing. I simply see it as an utterly brilliant testament to the fact that the two of you are without question, very engaged, invested in, aware of, and in tune with your marriage.
> 
> She's like an evil genius, MEM. That should fill you with dread, and desire.
> 
> And yet again, different strokes for different folks. I for one, think that competition and game playing can make for passion and excitement - rather than control or uncertainty. The relationship will seek out it's 'emotional equilibrium' based upon the participants.
> 
> I suspect that both MEM and his wife each have the others number. They enjoy it. Maybe one more so than the other times, eh MEM?


It really sounds like my house.


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
Do you really believe that is what "I" advocate? Smoke and mirrors alpha games? Ugh.... I must suck as a communicator. 

I kind of thought enforcing your boundaries was just being assertive. Seem to recall you would be at dinner and your W would be busily texting folks and totally ignoring you. How come using a mix of mostly non-verbal (but very clear) communication to get her to stop doing that is "smoke and mirrors"?





nice777guy said:


> So, are you in a marraige, or a contest now? Do you have a real partnership or are you always trying to stay a step ahead?
> 
> I've been on this board for over a year now and I still go back and forth on a lot of this stuff.
> 
> Is it better to be loved and respected for who you are - or is it better to hold your marriage together with smoke and mirrors while trying to live up to some "Alpha" label?
> 
> (steps down from soapbox - perplexed look still firmly planted on face...)


----------



## MEM2020

Hmmmmm.

Okey - I am now going to unleash my Asperger beta persona on you partly in the hopes that NG will lower my ALPHA smoke and mirror quotient. 

1. You can have that name as I don't want it - nor do I wish to experience what it implies
2. If you wish to "own" it, you need to register a "trademark". You cannot "patent" a name. No matter how clever - a name is not considered an "invention"






okeydokie said:


> i patented that name is high school, he cant have it


----------



## Conrad

MEM11363 said:


> NG,
> Do you really believe that is what "I" advocate? Smoke and mirrors alpha games? Ugh.... I must suck as a communicator.
> 
> I kind of thought enforcing your boundaries was just being assertive. Seem to recall you would be at dinner and your W would be busily texting folks and totally ignoring you. How come using a mix of mostly non-verbal (but very clear) communication to get her to stop doing that is "smoke and mirrors"?


Wow.....

And here I thought Nice777Guy was the poster child for advancing his attractiveness, winning back his wife, and then wondering why he did it.

Smoke and mirrors?

Sheesh


----------



## MEM2020

*The short step from boundary defense to competition*

NG,
I actually wouldn't mind this being a competition if she wasn't wiping the floor with me. And/or if I had some hope of at least battling to a draw. Three days in and I am fatigued. This will be a long week. 




nice777guy said:


> That's a contest within your own self.
> 
> Boundaries shouldn't be trip wires to be triggered unknowingly by your spouse.
> 
> MEM at some point unknowingly tripped a wire. Or maybe his wife is establishing some new boundaries and letting him figure out where they are on his own.
> 
> There may have been some straightforward communication initially, but now it sounds more like a game or a competition.
> 
> And not just MEM competing with himself to be a better man - but now its between MEM and his wife.


----------



## MEM2020

*An exceptional post*

Reaching,
You have grasped this dynamic perfectly. Thank you. I am near 100 percent certain this started out as "B". 

Because her libido isn't really that high BUT - damn - fuukk - can you fuukkiinngg believe that somehow this "game" is exciting her. She really is mildly sadistic. I actually have no problem with all the scratch marks on my arms - but I can't allow a situation where pushing me to the edge on stamina INCREASES her desire level. 

I am going to follow your advice below. It is excellent. I will do this out of love and commitment. But I really can't keep going that long at 2/day. I just can't. I am hoping to last long enough that she will feel like I showed genuine commitment and determination. 




reachingshore said:


> MEM, why won't you try weathering the storm?
> 
> a) if her libido is really that high now - that's one thing.
> b) if she's doing that mainly to teach you a lesson, by essentially reversing the situation and "logic" you taught her, I don't see a (good) way out for you by vetoing. Even if it's physically impossible for a man to continuously have a go at it multiple times a day.
> 
> If it's option b, she is going to go at it, till she sees results. Well then give her _a result_. Get Viagra, practice tantric sex or those semen retention techniques. Go for a trip together to a sex-shop. Make sure she knows all that you are doing. At this point it's not going to be about sex anymore. It's going to be "I am doing this for you, and as a result I am doing this for our relationship".
> 
> If it's option b, she's going to let it go pretty soon (but not in a week's time ). The whole objective would be to prove to her that what you were doing to her before she turned the tables had nothing to do about your, uh, "selfish need for sex". It was for both of you, for your relationship.
> 
> If you veto it prematurely, not only you'd probably lose her respect ("you demanded that from me and it was OK for you to do it, but now when I demand the same thing back from you..."), but also you'd give her a message that you don't care.
> 
> I really don't think she doesn't know that it would be physically impossible for you to keep up.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Wow.....
> 
> And here I thought Nice777Guy was the poster child for advancing his attractiveness, winning back his wife, and then wondering why he did it.
> 
> Smoke and mirrors?
> 
> Sheesh


Hold on, Conrad. NG is NOT smoke and mirrors. He does have a few mountains to climb to figure himself and his marriage out but he is above all honest and truthful. He viewed what Mem said as a threat and so did many of us. He was wise enough to see that this would not be taken lightly. He was right! He is trying to be his true self and I applaud him for that. He now knows his line in the sand and he is defending it. What NG did was call out manipulation, pure and simple. He apparently IS the Oracle or clitoris and saw what would be the result.


----------



## MEM2020

Deejo,
You describe it well. Of course I love my W - she is a good person and has many great qualities. But as for being "in love" with her - that has more to do with her biittcchhyy humor (which induces full body laughter), her edgy competitive drive and so forth. She is like an emotional "sparring partner", we are not trying to "damage" each other, but when we spar it can be a little rough. What is more fun than fighting (playfully) and fuukkiinngg?

I will say that on the whole our "normal" fighting tends to be a lot of wrestling seeking to gain sufficient advantage to strike. With my W sometimes deliberately making me laugh so hard that I am "combat" impaired - at which point she pummels me, but eventually I usually pin her on her stomach so I can....

It never, ever occurred to me that she would do this. 

"Just because I know I deserve my punishment, doesn't mean I am happy about getting it"



Deejo said:


> I for one, despite askance views and chuckles from the gallery, really appreciate and admire your posting this.
> 
> Your wife is insidiously brilliant. Seriously. Can you possibly imagine a more effective, and less confrontational way to change _your_ perspective on the sexual dynamic of your relationship?
> 
> I am completely reserving judgment on whether or not it is warranted, a good thing, or a bad thing. I simply see it as an utterly brilliant testament to the fact that the two of you are without question, very engaged, invested in, aware of, and in tune with your marriage.
> 
> She's like an evil genius, MEM. That should fill you with dread, and desire.
> 
> And yet again, different strokes for different folks. I for one, think that competition and game playing can make for passion and excitement - rather than control or uncertainty. The relationship will seek out it's 'emotional equilibrium' based upon the participants.
> 
> I suspect that both MEM and his wife each have the others number. They enjoy it. Maybe one more so than the other times, eh MEM?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

As for Mem,
Did ya buy the padded headboard yet and the Ben Gay? You will need it. She is out to prove her point and revenge is a dish served up cold. Enjoy your just rewards. **Wink**


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Hold on, Conrad. NG is NOT smoke and mirrors. He does have a few mountains to climb to figure himself and his marriage out but he is above all honest and truthful. He viewed what Mem said as a threat and so did many of us. He was wise enough to see that this would not be taken lightly. He was right! He is trying to be his true self and I applaud him for that. He now knows his line in the sand and he is defending it. What NG did was call out manipulation, pure and simple. He apparently IS the Oracle or clitoris and saw what would be the result.


Brennan,

That's not how I read the following - I see it as a very general broadside:
_

Originally Posted by nice777guy View Post
So, are you in a marraige, or a contest now? Do you have a real partnership or are you always trying to stay a step ahead?

I've been on this board for over a year now and I still go back and forth on a lot of this stuff.

Is it better to be loved and respected for who you are - or is it better to hold your marriage together with smoke and mirrors while trying to live up to some "Alpha" label?

(steps down from soapbox - perplexed look still firmly planted on face...)_


----------



## MEM2020

I am SO NOT a morning person. So this morning - 6:30 AM - jeesh I would so rather be sleeping. And then right afterwards she starts rubbing my thigh - and I put BOTH HANDS over my equipment and say "I can't - we just did - I can't". And she give me this mischevious little grin and says "Oh honey - I think you are underestimating yourself - just relax". I just kept saying "tonight baby - I promise". 

Very funny. Very freakin funny. 




Brennan said:


> As for Mem,
> Did ya buy the padded headboard yet and the Ben Gay? You will need it. She is out to prove her point and revenge is a dish served up cold. Enjoy your just rewards. **Wink**


----------



## reachingshore

MEM11363 said:


> I am SO NOT a morning person. So this morning - 6:30 AM - jeesh I would so rather be sleeping. And then right afterwards she starts rubbing my thigh - and I put BOTH HANDS over my equipment and say "I can't - we just did - I can't". And she give me this mischevious little grin and says "Oh honey - I think you are underestimating yourself - just relax". I just kept saying "tonight baby - I promise".
> 
> Very funny. Very freakin funny.


   
Why does this sound like a twisted version of "just the tip"?

:rofl:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> That's not how I read the following - I see it as a very general broadside:
> _
> 
> Originally Posted by nice777guy View Post
> So, are you in a marraige, or a contest now? Do you have a real partnership or are you always trying to stay a step ahead?
> 
> I've been on this board for over a year now and I still go back and forth on a lot of this stuff.
> 
> Is it better to be loved and respected for who you are - or is it better to hold your marriage together with smoke and mirrors while trying to live up to some "Alpha" label?
> 
> (steps down from soapbox - perplexed look still firmly planted on face...)_


How was NG wrong? He said that MEM in essence viewed his marriage as a series of challenges and games being the man. He put his wife to the test and said he would seek sex elsewhere. How did that not strike you as a challenge? Mem set the bar and NG called him out on it. It was a wrong thing to do from day one but he did it and you cannot unring a bell. NG simply said that his actions will have payback and he was right. No woman in her right mind will hear what Mem had to say and think "oh well". We do not forget and his wife is in payback mode. She is out to prove that sometimes having sex when you do not want to SHOULD be okay. She will not give up her fight until Mem realizes this. NG was trying to point out that in a marriage it is a give and take, that is all. Mem IS in for his just rewards and that is why I find humor in this.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> I am SO NOT a morning person. So this morning - 6:30 AM - jeesh I would so rather be sleeping. And then right afterwards she starts rubbing my thigh - and I put BOTH HANDS over my equipment and say "I can't - we just did - I can't". And she give me this mischevious little grin and says "Oh honey - I think you are underestimating yourself - just relax". I just kept saying "tonight baby - I promise".
> 
> Very funny. Very freakin funny.


You DESERVE it in every sense of the word. Keep at the Gatorade and take some Ginseng. Perhaps get some heating pad, you will need it.


----------



## greenpearl

I find this totally funny toooooooooooooooooooooo! 

Can't help laughing......................................................

I am going to the sex section and start a thread telling all women to do what MEM's wife is doing......................(or Bennan, you do it, I am tired of starting new threads now!)

Tire all these men out and they have no energy for anything.............................

Actually that's what Chinese women do when they are suspicious that their husbands are cheating..............................


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> How was NG wrong? He said that MEM in essence viewed his marriage as a series of challenges and games being the man. He put his wife to the test and said he would seek sex elsewhere. How did that not strike you as a challenge? Mem set the bar and NG called him out on it. It was a wrong thing to do from day one but he did it and you cannot unring a bell. NG simply said that his actions will have payback and he was right. No woman in her right mind will hear what Mem had to say and think "oh well". We do not forget and his wife is in payback mode. She is out to prove that sometimes having sex when you do not want to SHOULD be okay. She will not give up her fight until Mem realizes this. NG was trying to point out that in a marriage it is a give and take, that is all. Mem IS in for his just rewards and that is why I find humor in this.


I see him making a general comment about MEM. Nowhere does he state this is specific criticism to one particular situation.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> I am SO NOT a morning person. So this morning - 6:30 AM - jeesh I would so rather be sleeping. And then right afterwards she starts rubbing my thigh - and I put BOTH HANDS over my equipment and say "I can't - we just did - I can't". And she give me this mischevious little grin and says "Oh honey - I think you are underestimating yourself - just relax". I just kept saying "tonight baby - I promise".
> 
> Very funny. Very freakin funny.


Then she do what I did to my poor husband, schedule an appointment with the Encronologist cause she thinks something is wrong with you - cause you can't keep up! :rofl::rofl: 

I really did do this by the way- looking back it is rather amusing. I didn't waste any time, He had zero symptoms other than not being able to keep up with the wife. I tried to downplay this when we visited her, cause It might make ME look kinda bad. But I was determined to get answers. Ha ha 

Not once in our marraige did he have an issue until THEN. I just didn't realize guys slow down as they get older, that is how uneducated I was!


----------



## Draguna

OMG... the women here are having a blast with all this. I do feel your pain MEM. She is proving a point and nothing will stop her until she has proven it. Hell hath not fury eh... 

But somehow, I can't help but think just deserts as well. Wish I could give any advice on going on, but yeah, don't know anything. You have my moral support.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> That's not how I read the following - I see it as a very general broadside:
> _
> 
> Originally Posted by nice777guy View Post
> So, are you in a marraige, or a contest now? Do you have a real partnership or are you always trying to stay a step ahead?
> 
> I've been on this board for over a year now and I still go back and forth on a lot of this stuff.
> 
> Is it better to be loved and respected for who you are - or is it better to hold your marriage together with smoke and mirrors while trying to live up to some "Alpha" label?
> 
> (steps down from soapbox - perplexed look still firmly planted on face...)_


Clitroracle, can you expand a bit? :scratchhead::scratchhead:


----------



## Conrad

Conrad said:


> I see him making a general comment about MEM. Nowhere does he state this is specific criticism to one particular situation.


Ibid


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> I am SO NOT a morning person. So this morning - 6:30 AM - jeesh I would so rather be sleeping. And then right afterwards she starts rubbing my thigh - and I put BOTH HANDS over my equipment and say "I can't - we just did - I can't". And she give me this mischevious little grin and says "Oh honey - I think you are underestimating yourself - just relax". I just kept saying "tonight baby - I promise".
> 
> Very funny. Very freakin funny.


Can a man go blind from too much sex? She is going to test that theory. :rofl::rofl:
Again, where should I send my fruit basket? Carbs can help you, Mem.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> I see him making a general comment about MEM. Nowhere does he state this is specific criticism to one particular situation.


My post that's being quote so often in my absence was actually directed at Neil.

I understand that MEM has had a long and successful marriage, which is why I did NOT post any criticisms when this issue first came up with the threat / ultimatum. I was curious as to how this would play out - and it seems that it isn't over yet...

When someone has a miracle two week turnaround, I tend to be a bit more pessimistic.


----------



## MEM2020

It was a threat. Jeesh. She said she didn't want to have sex with me any more. 

Do you not the the irony here:
W (without any obvious reason, and without any warning): I don't want to have sex with you any more

MEM (knee jerk reaction): Fine I'll go get happy endings at the local massage parlor

W (knee knee jerk reaction): Ok we can have sex - like we always do - great sex a bit less frequently than you would like

MEM: (happy - feeling victorious and yes ALPHA): Sounds good honey

W (delayed reaction): I am going to fuukk you into total and absolute submission. I am going to fuukk you until you pray for celibacy. 

MEM: (waiting for W to get out of shower so he can "service" her for the second time today) How the fuukk did I end up in this situation?




Brennan said:


> Hold on, Conrad. NG is NOT smoke and mirrors. He does have a few mountains to climb to figure himself and his marriage out but he is above all honest and truthful. He viewed what Mem said as a threat and so did many of us. He was wise enough to see that this would not be taken lightly. He was right! He is trying to be his true self and I applaud him for that. He now knows his line in the sand and he is defending it. What NG did was call out manipulation, pure and simple. He apparently IS the Oracle or clitoris and saw what would be the result.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> Wow.....
> 
> And here I thought Nice777Guy was the poster child for advancing his attractiveness, winning back his wife, and then wondering why he did it.
> 
> Smoke and mirrors?
> 
> Sheesh


No smoke and mirrors here - don't need them. That's me being an open book.

Guess you (and others) glanced over my post THANKING MEM for sharing this interesting and personal "experiment" with us all.

MEM - Kind of surprised you mis-read me - wishing you luck buddy...


----------



## MEM2020

Reaching,
I am taking your advice. Tonight I "tried" to weasel out of tomorrow morning. No dice. It was a very "soft" request I made. Of course she is being totally sweet in her delivery style - not the slightest bit of edge or biotch factor. She just firmly shook her head when I asked as if I were a retarded person trying to do calculus. 

Then about a half hour later she comes up to me - and all sweet and nice asks me "Do you really want the morning off"?

I said "NO - then I paused and added - because I love you and want to make you happy". She processed that for a moment and just nodded. 

And I spoke the truth because I am sure as hell not doing it because I have physical desire. 






reachingshore said:


> Why does this sound like a twisted version of "just the tip"?
> 
> :rofl:


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
My bad. Sorry. Someone has clearly fuukked my brains out.



nice777guy said:


> No smoke and mirrors here - don't need them. That's me being an open book.
> 
> Guess you (and others) glanced over my post THANKING MEM for sharing this interesting and personal "experiment" with us all.
> 
> MEM - Kind of surprised you mis-read me - wishing you luck buddy...


----------



## Draguna

MEM11363 said:


> And I spoke the truth because I am sure as hell not doing it because I have physical desire.


You sir, are my hero. Period. Pair of brass balls you have there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nice777guy

nice777guy said:


> First of all - yes - a big *thank you *MEM for giving us all a ringside seat to something so personal. Even though none of us really know you, it still takes a lot of guts to share this stuff.
> 
> And just to clarify - *I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong* - just hoping you guys get through this with minimal collateral damage!


bold added for emphasis...for Mr. Conrad...who at least appreciated my advances in attractiveness...


----------



## reachingshore

Morning isn't there yet.



MEM11363 said:


> I said "NO - then I paused and added - because I love you and want to make you happy". She *processed that for a moment and just nodded*.


This is encouraging. Wondering what's gonna happen in the morning. 

Practice makes perfect, BTW, in either instance


----------



## Catherine602

Draguna said:


> OMG... the women here are having a blast with all this. I do feel your pain MEM. She is proving a point and nothing will stop her until she has proven it. Hell hath not fury eh...
> 
> But somehow, I can't help but think just deserts as well. Wish I could give any advice on going on, but yeah, don't know anything. You have my moral support.


D not having any chuckles with Mrs MEM out meming MEM gidy with shock and awe. If some humor leaked out it was inadvertent. Somehow MEM will get out of this.

MEM is this a severe form of testing. Perhaps you must stop playing the game, it dosen't matter if you demanded that she not wiggle out of your taxing her on issues. You don't appear to think that anymore. So how do you gracefully let a partner know that it is time for compromise? She does not want to crush you utterly I think she is asking you to think of another way to accomplish the goal of keeping both happy and satisfied. 

I keep harping on that but I think The comment about a substitute sex partner is what got her on this test of you. She knows you are a problem-solver, and she asked in a gentle way to solve a potencial problem when she said something to the affect of - she did not think she could keep up having sex for the next 20 years- a common concern, Meaning, "supose something happens to me that results in a change will you hang with me and find another way to accomplish the same goals of happiness for us". I think you went to a zero sum attitude you answered if i remember that - "sexlessness was not an option". now she has stepped it up and getting hard core with the request. 

Maybe she was asking you for reassurence that you would at lest work on a solution that kept her in the loop of your life. You took it to mean that she was dictating terms and trying to control you, I think. You did not seem to ask what she was concerned about and reassure her that you would try to find a solution that did not include humiliating and hurting her. Maybe she wants you to change your approach to a more nuanced one that has the elements of fuzzy logic, not a hard all or none one. 

Think about it, can you find a nuanced way to get out of this where no one wins and no one loses and vow to not play a zero sum game with her. i don't think it would decrese the proportion of alpha - beta that is necessary to keep the relationship dynamic. Finding solutions and changing actually gives you more power. You do something that she cannot find a way to reassure her of your love and that you are committed to treating her in a way that takes into account that you can hurt her easily but you will not do that so easily. I don't think you need to say I will stay no matter what but that you will try you best to treat her heart gently. 

I think that's the missing element of the manning up thing - it requires a spouse to keep the other off balance to gain an advantage. In my opinion, it is a contrived, undignified bull -in- a -china -shop approach. it a gareenteed way to back someone into a conner and make them plan to give back what the have gotten, it human nature, when you operate from fear and intimidation the victory is short-lived there is always a revolt. It make take a while and it is often subtle designed to unsettle the oppressor but not in a way to invite retaliation. Not worthy of smart people, not empathetic enough and there has to be a was to refine the massage. 

What do you think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

MEM11363 said:


> MEM: (waiting for W to get out of shower so he can "service" her for the second time today) How the fuukk did I end up in this situation?


I don't know but play some Eminem real load while she fuuuks you to the floor boards - slim shady - not making comments about size here just the inspirational refrain " please stand up" is good dont you think. he he
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
Sorry - I completely missed that. Your kindness is fully appreciated. 



nice777guy said:


> bold added for emphasis...for Mr. Conrad...who at least appreciated my advances in attractiveness...


----------



## Atholk

I'm not sure this is a game either of you can win.

I think you've stopped making love, and started making hate.

Please stop before your feelings for each other start to change.


----------



## Trenton

Hey Mem, I know your relationship works for the two of you and find the game playing mind boggling but I want to weigh in on a 'this isn't my relationship and this is why I don't relate to what's going on' kind of way.

There is a certain amount of dishonesty that is building up behind the game. If at one point, neither of you call a truce there is no end to the game play.

In theory this is fine if your ideal relationship revolves around game play but in reality this wouldn't work for me. I'd dislike always waiting for the next game to start or end. Correct me if I'm wrong...you've been married longer and perhaps know your ebb and flow better than me.

I am personally both compulsively relentless and passionately honest. If both in the relationship have gotten to a point where empathy has been reached it might be time for a check mate.

Sometimes when we win we lose, and in this case, if you both are winning it might be time to cop to the reality of the situation.


----------



## MEM2020

YES

Time travel permitting my response to her comment would have been to hug her, and hold her and just ask if she was more afraid or more angry or both. And then let her TELL ME what prompted that remark. Instead I acted EXACTLY as she feared I would and in so doing completely "jammed" the comms channel with fear. 

About a month later when I tried to gently probe, with sensors on "full", I got short, unhelpful responses and deceptive body language. She basically refused to respond to my questions.

Some little stuff - looking back. On day 5 I would routinely say "Babe I am dying" in a plaintive voice. And she would respond with "I am all over it". And we would connect that night. Far better for me to have said "I miss you". Same message, more loving tone. Likely the same or very similar response within a day or two. 



Catherine602 said:


> D not having any chuckles with Mrs MEM out meming MEM gidy with shock and awe. If some humor leaked out it was inadvertent. Somehow MEM will get out of this.
> 
> MEM is this a severe form of testing. Perhaps you must stop playing the game, it dosen't matter if you demanded that she not wiggle out of your taxing her on issues. You don't appear to think that anymore. So how do you gracefully let a partner know that it is time for compromise? She does not want to crush you utterly I think she is asking you to think of another way to accomplish the goal of keeping both happy and satisfied.
> 
> I keep harping on that but I think The comment about a substitute sex partner is what got her on this test of you. She knows you are a problem-solver, and she asked in a gentle way to solve a potencial problem when she said something to the affect of - she did not think she could keep up having sex for the next 20 years- a common concern, Meaning, "supose something happens to me that results in a change will you hang with me and find another way to accomplish the same goals of happiness for us". I think you went to a zero sum attitude you answered if i remember that - "sexlessness was not an option". now she has stepped it up and getting hard core with the request.
> 
> Maybe she was asking you for reassurence that you would at lest work on a solution that kept her in the loop of your life. You took it to mean that she was dictating terms and trying to control you, I think. You did not seem to ask what she was concerned about and reassure her that you would try to find a solution that did not include humiliating and hurting her. Maybe she wants you to change your approach to a more nuanced one that has the elements of fuzzy logic, not a hard all or none one.
> 
> Think about it, can you find a nuanced way to get out of this where no one wins and no one loses and vow to not play a zero sum game with her. i don't think it would decrese the proportion of alpha - beta that is necessary to keep the relationship dynamic. Finding solutions and changing actually gives you more power. You do something that she cannot find a way to reassure her of your love and that you are committed to treating her in a way that takes into account that you can hurt her easily but you will not do that so easily. I don't think you need to say I will stay no matter what but that you will try you best to treat her heart gently.
> 
> I think that's the missing element of the manning up thing - it requires a spouse to keep the other off balance to gain an advantage. In my opinion, it is a contrived, undignified bull -in- a -china -shop approach. it a gareenteed way to back someone into a conner and make them plan to give back what the have gotten, it human nature, when you operate from fear and intimidation the victory is short-lived there is always a revolt. It make take a while and it is often subtle designed to unsettle the oppressor but not in a way to invite retaliation. Not worthy of smart people, not empathetic enough and there has to be a was to refine the massage.
> 
> What do you think?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Tonight, after I 'barely' finished she said "well I think you have earned the morning off". I reflexively let out a deep sigh of relief which was met with "you don't have to seem THAT relieved about it". And that was followed with - I don't mind if you don't "finish" every time. After I cum I just like the closeness, so whatever happens, happens. 

Of course she later had a field day with me over the concept of pressure. With her saying in a sincere voice "I don't want you to feel any pressure". Just like I have said to her so many, many times. Totally mirroring me. SURE there isn't any pressure, as long as you don't reach day 5. Or in this case fall below 2/day. She is better at being me, than I am. 




reachingshore said:


> Morning isn't there yet.
> 
> 
> 
> This is encouraging. Wondering what's gonna happen in the morning.
> 
> Practice makes perfect, BTW, in either instance


----------



## Draguna

Any possibility that speaking to her, while admitting you see where this is going, how you've been a douche and discussing what went wrong will make her a bit happier? It might not make her stop, but I think that what she wants to hear most, is a true, heartfelt sorry an that you now have felt the tip of what you put her through. Sure, then you could say that if she wants to go on, you will let her continue the punishment, as it is only fair that she wants revenge, but ask if you can do anything in the meantime to help her feelings. 

Then again, I don't know the dynamic between the two of you and saying this might be seen as a weakness. It may or may not be what she wants to hear though. Gah, really doesn't feel right to give you advice. Especially since I am but a newbie. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Neil

nice777guy said:


> My post that's being quote so often in my absence was actually directed at Neil.
> 
> I understand that MEM has had a long and successful marriage, which is why I did NOT post any criticisms when this issue first came up with the threat / ultimatum. I was curious as to how this would play out - and it seems that it isn't over yet...
> 
> When someone has a miracle two week turnaround, I tend to be a bit more pessimistic.


I wasn't aware that you could put just over 2 months into two weeks...

If you went through my scenario, you would see that it was painful for well over 12 months, and a cycle that kept re-occuring over the years every 6 months, but the last 12 months was just plain awful.

This site has help me understand whats been happening over the years.

I have implemented things that over the last 2 months, have got me out of the hole, that previously only her parents ever could. And I did it this time without their help.

I now understand what has been happening, the cause etc.

And it certainly continues, their are things she is now doing what she has never done apart from in our first year or 2 together.

Thats the reason why I can be so sure that this time the cycle has been broken.

Everyone has different time scales, but please don't belittle me by saying its some sort of high school thing that can be sorted out in 2 weeks. It clearly hasn't


----------



## Neil

PS,

sorry MEM, by hijacking your excellent story...

Well, you know what I mean, maybe excellent is not the word you want to hear right now


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Reaching,
> I am taking your advice. Tonight I "tried" to weasel out of tomorrow morning. No dice. It was a very "soft" request I made. Of course she is being totally sweet in her delivery style - not the slightest bit of edge or biotch factor. She just firmly shook her head when I asked as if I were a retarded person trying to do calculus.
> 
> Then about a half hour later she comes up to me - and all sweet and nice asks me "Do you really want the morning off"?
> 
> I said "NO - then I paused and added - because I love you and want to make you happy". She processed that for a moment and just nodded.
> 
> And I spoke the truth because I am sure as hell not doing it because I have physical desire.


Haven't you got a headache? (top one).


----------



## nice777guy

MEM - you do realize that Judo includes a ground/submission aspect, right? Tapping out IS an option...especially if it helps you live to fight another day.


----------



## MEM2020

D,
That is/would be a totally rational thing to do. I have tried twice so far. She shuts it down without a thought. 

The thing is she actually isn't "angry" in the classic sense. Just utterly determined to alter my behavior by creating the "identical" sexual environment for me, that I have created for her. The training "simulation" will end when the instructor concludes the student has become totally "fluent" with all aspects of the dynamic. 

Outside the sexual aspect of life her behavior is the same as always, save for generally being even happier than usual (the thrill of victory). 

This morning I couldn't ummm finish. Fine with her. Totally consistent with MY behavior. When she "can't" finish she can't. She gets no negative feedback at all and never has. So I get none from her. 

When we reach the point where I can't "start" I think she will quickly wrap up the "training program". 





Draguna said:


> Any possibility that speaking to her, while admitting you see where this is going, how you've been a douche and discussing what went wrong will make her a bit happier? It might not make her stop, but I think that what she wants to hear most, is a true, heartfelt sorry an that you now have felt the tip of what you put her through. Sure, then you could say that if she wants to go on, you will let her continue the punishment, as it is only fair that she wants revenge, but ask if you can do anything in the meantime to help her feelings.
> 
> Then again, I don't know the dynamic between the two of you and saying this might be seen as a weakness. It may or may not be what she wants to hear though. Gah, really doesn't feel right to give you advice. Especially since I am but a newbie.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Neil,
I have to admit that she has increased my "self awareness" in this area more in 4-5 days (losing track of time here) than she was able to accomplish in 20 years of "conversation". 

As for your story - I find it uplifting. And at this point I can use all the uplift I can get. 



Neil said:


> PS,
> 
> sorry MEM, by hijacking your excellent story...
> 
> Well, you know what I mean, maybe excellent is not the word you want to hear right now


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
You read my mind. I thought about going there last night. 

The tough thing is that - to the best of my memory - she just didn't use the "headache, ...., " tactic with me. If she really had a headache it was typically a migraine and she took these migraine meds. She hates taking pills - and the migraines were often during the day so....

If I get a real headache I will get real sympathy. Anything else will likely just "extend" the training program. 




AFEH said:


> Haven't you got a headache? (top one).


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,
LOL. As for the way she raised the subject of our future sex life, leading to my unfortunate response, it didn't feel gentle to me. 

1. What I got: "I can't imagine have to have sex with you for another 15-20 years" (and at that moment, her desire was low to zero so it was a sincere comment - but it came with no warning)

2. What I think of as gentle delivery style: "Lately - my desire is just gone. I am struggling. I feel bad for you, and worse for me and don't know what to do".

Of course I was never anything but binary and strident about the connection between marital sex and fidelity. So I created an environment where this type of discussion was deeply frightening to her. 

In "theory" - "I won't be celibate" is a statement of personal boundaries. But if you say it in a certain way it sure sounds like a threat to the LD (or in this case - temporarily no drive) spouse. 

When asserting your boundaries is done in a manner indistinguishable from a "garden variety" threat, it raises the question of whether you have crossed the bright line separating assertiveness and aggression. 





Catherine602 said:


> I don't know but play some Eminem real load while she fuuuks you to the floor boards - slim shady - not making comments about size here just the inspirational refrain " please stand up" is good dont you think. he he
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Draguna

Ah, I think I get your situation better now. Pffff... This thread has taught me a lot of small things. Especially on phrasing stuff and accidentally creating a somewhat hostile environment. It might not be what you wanted to hear, or even last thing on your mind, but maybe you might find solace in this.


----------



## nice777guy

Neil said:


> I wasn't aware that you could put just over 2 months into two weeks...
> 
> If you went through my scenario, you would see that it was painful for well over 12 months, and a cycle that kept re-occuring over the years every 6 months, but the last 12 months was just plain awful.
> 
> This site has help me understand whats been happening over the years.
> 
> I have implemented things that over the last 2 months, have got me out of the hole, that previously only her parents ever could. And I did it this time without their help.
> 
> I now understand what has been happening, the cause etc.
> 
> And it certainly continues, their are things she is now doing what she has never done apart from in our first year or 2 together.
> 
> Thats the reason why I can be so sure that this time the cycle has been broken.
> 
> Everyone has different time scales, but please don't belittle me by saying its some sort of high school thing that can be sorted out in 2 weeks. It clearly hasn't


Neil - sorry - didn't mean to belittle (just now saw that word).

MEM's adventure here just reminds me that victory is a very temporary thing in a long term relationship. Just when you think you've "won," something else is bound to come your way. From within the marriage, from within yourself, or from the outside. Its a constant and never ending challenge to keep it all together.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Its a constant and never ending challenge to keep it all together.


Out of curiousity, and again, I don't think there is a right or a wrong; but do you embrace this notion or find it overwhelming?

My opinion? Taking that very concept for granted, and simply turning your relationship on auto-pilot is what lands so many marriages right here on these boards.

I don't think I'll ever settle for anything other than a constant and never ending challenge to keep it all together.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Out of curiousity, and again, I don't think there is a right or a wrong; but do you embrace this notion or find it overwhelming?
> 
> My opinion? Taking that very concept for granted, and simply turning your relationship on auto-pilot is what lands so many marriages right here on these boards.
> 
> I don't think I'll ever settle for anything other than a constant and never ending challenge to keep it all together.


Just kind of is what it is. At times its overwhelming (lets ask MEM right now!). But yes - cruise control is probably just as dangerous as playing head games or sneaking around.


----------



## reachingshore

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> You read my mind. I thought about going there last night.
> 
> The tough thing is that - to the best of my memory - she just didn't use the "headache, ...., " tactic with me. If she really had a headache it was typically a migraine and she took these migraine meds. She hates taking pills - and the migraines were often during the day so....
> 
> If I get a real headache I will get real sympathy. Anything else will likely just "extend" the training program.


Competition it might be. But there is an _honorable _code of conduct 

MEM's Wife doesn't go: "NOW I can get back at his a$$ for it!! "

MEM's Wife goes: "Haaaa  See?  See?  See?"

Quite frankly, judging by that reaction I'd say she didn't take MEM's "other options" response seriously. A.k.a She wasn't hurt by it.


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
If she pushes it to the point my "body" taps out via hydraulic systems failure, she will stop. I know her. If I tap out because I don't "feel" like it, we have a vastly different outcome that sort of looks like this. 

Her: For 21 years I have been here for you whether or not I wanted to me. Why is it that after a (insert very short duration here) time period you think it is ok to shut me down?
Me: Completely at a loss of how to respond to that. No clue. 

That said - equipment failure will produce immediate and genuine sympathy. And that WILL happen at this pace. She continues to say this is our "new" schedule for the next 18 months. 





nice777guy said:


> MEM - you do realize that Judo includes a ground/submission aspect, right? Tapping out IS an option...especially if it helps you live to fight another day.


----------



## MEM2020

One thing helped limit the damage of the "other options" conversation. She knows I do not WANT to go that route. In essence that is a door she would have to "push" me through. Most of her anger has to do with my sense of entitlement. 

I get that. This isn't easy. My sense of "entitlement" truly has steadily decreased over 21 years. It will never go to zero. Nor should it. We are "married" not BFF's. That said, I sure am going to express my needs WAY WAY WAY WAY more kindly than I used to. 




reachingshore said:


> Competition it might be. But there is an _honorable _code of conduct
> 
> MEM's Wife doesn't go: "NOW I can get back at his a$$ for it!! "
> 
> MEM's Wife goes: "Haaaa  See?  See?  See?"
> 
> Quite frankly, judging by that reaction I'd say she didn't take MEM's "other options" response seriously. A.k.a She wasn't hurt by it.


----------



## MEM2020

Deejo,
I agree with your point here. I guess maybe it seems like my W and I are constantly playing "games". But the "games" are intended as a source of entertainment, not a means to screw your partner over. 

As for our genuine power struggles. They are not malicious. They are just the result of an often irresistable force (her) colliding with a sometimes immovable object (me). 

If you watch "The blind side" my W is kind of like the W in the movie. And me - I am 90 percent like the husband and 10 percent like the W. Meaning 10 percent of the time I become rather determined. 

But watch the two of them. They are happy. We are happy. 

I escaped my quota this morning due to a schedule conflict. 



Deejo said:


> Out of curiousity, and again, I don't think there is a right or a wrong; but do you embrace this notion or find it overwhelming?
> 
> My opinion? Taking that very concept for granted, and simply turning your relationship on auto-pilot is what lands so many marriages right here on these boards.
> 
> I don't think I'll ever settle for anything other than a constant and never ending challenge to keep it all together.


----------



## MEM2020

*Honorable conduct produced a positive result*

I sucked it up and stayed the course. The mini-marathon ended last night. She gave me the nicest, kindest look and told me if I was tired i could have the night off. I declined and responded with 

"In the last week you have educated me more than you did during 21 years of "conversation". Thank you for doing that and I am sorry for being so - slow." I got an unexpected response. She said "I am sorry this has been a difficult part of our marriage for you".

WTF? In this part of the marriage I give her WAY higher marks than I give myself. I just told her that was "nonsense" and that I loved her. And then we connected and it was great. 

This lesson plan is however now "deeply etched" in my head. 




reachingshore said:


> Competition it might be. But there is an _honorable _code of conduct
> 
> MEM's Wife doesn't go: "NOW I can get back at his a$$ for it!! "
> 
> MEM's Wife goes: "Haaaa  See?  See?  See?"
> 
> Quite frankly, judging by that reaction I'd say she didn't take MEM's "other options" response seriously. A.k.a She wasn't hurt by it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

*Re: Honorable conduct produced a positive result*



MEM11363 said:


> I sucked it up and stayed the course. The mini-marathon ended last night. She gave me the nicest, kindest look and told me if I was tired i could have the night off. I declined and responded with
> 
> "In the last week you have educated me more than you did during 21 years of "conversation". Thank you for doing that and I am sorry for being so - slow." I got an unexpected response. She said "I am sorry this has been a difficult part of our marriage for you".
> 
> WTF? In this part of the marriage I give her WAY higher marks than I give myself. I just told her that was "nonsense" and that I loved her. And then we connected and it was great.
> 
> This lesson plan is however now "deeply etched" in my head.


Mem,
I do hope you have a vast takeaway from all this. I know you love your wife deeply and the two of you seem to have a bond that is unbreakable. Having said that, I hope you understand that you being the HD person does not make it okay to use threats or forms of intimidation to get your wife to have sex with you. Honestly, when you posted what you did, I lost a bit of respect for you and I could completely feel what hurt your wife must have felt. Add to that her physical pain (which granted you were not aware of) and I can imagine your words were crushing to her.
I think she hatched a plan and it was a brilliant one. She could have gone the other way and built up resentment and bitterness but she did not. Her approach was fantastic and hilarious all at the same time and I have nothing but respect for Mrs. Mem and her ability to seek a funny solution to what must have been a very emotionally painful time in her life, in an effort to save her marriage. 
I think the reason she said it must be difficult for you is because she saw your anxiety, hell we all saw it yet she wanted to prove a very valuable point. She has felt anxious too, yet you gave her little pass. When the tables were turned she was compassionate yet still pressed on with her agenda. She handled this situation (in my opinion) with grace, class and style and you should treasure a woman like that for the rest of your life.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Honorable conduct produced a positive result*

Amen.



Brennan said:


> Mem,
> I do hope you have a vast takeaway from all this. I know you love your wife deeply and the two of you seem to have a bond that is unbreakable. Having said that, I hope you understand that you being the HD person does not make it okay to use threats or forms of intimidation to get your wife to have sex with you. Honestly, when you posted what you did, I lost a bit of respect for you and I could completely feel what hurt your wife must have felt. Add to that her physical pain (which granted you were not aware of) and I can imagine your words were crushing to her.
> I think she hatched a plan and it was a brilliant one. She could have gone the other way and built up resentment and bitterness but she did not. Her approach was fantastic and hilarious all at the same time and I have nothing but respect for Mrs. Mem and her ability to seek a funny solution to what must have been a very emotionally painful time in her life, in an effort to save her marriage.
> I think the reason she said it must be difficult for you is because she saw your anxiety, hell we all saw it yet she wanted to prove a very valuable point. She has felt anxious too, yet you gave her little pass. When the tables were turned she was compassionate yet still pressed on with her agenda. She handled this situation (in my opinion) with grace, class and style and you should treasure a woman like that for the rest of your life.


----------



## reachingshore

*Re: Honorable conduct produced a positive result*



MEM11363 said:


> She said "I am sorry this has been a difficult part of our marriage for you".


Hmm.. I can think of 3 options:

a. At the time she didn't feel like needing much of sex, you had to kinda force her to it - I am sure on certain level it wasn't pleasant to you either thus in a way it took away from the quality of experience. 

At the time she decided to turn the tables on you, when technically you should be in heaven.. uh, "technical" difficulties.

b. She talked about your difficulties with "education". Proper education according to MEM's Wife: "Now you finally learned that in the end it's never really about sex, but about love and devotion"

c. _(since I have no clue what her body language/tone of voice was)_ **poke**  **poke**  **poke** in regards to, uh, "technical" difficulties, and your enforced and somewhat painful realization thereof 



So.. can we all start celebrating the victory in this particular (stage of) "conflict"/friction/battle?


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Out of curiousity, and again, I don't think there is a right or a wrong; but do you embrace this notion or find it overwhelming?
> 
> My opinion? Taking that very concept for granted, and simply turning your relationship on auto-pilot is what lands so many marriages right here on these boards.
> 
> I don't think I'll ever settle for anything other than a constant and never ending challenge to keep it all together.


Once you realize that's what it's about, it becomes - at the same time - a glorious and breathtaking test.

I'm actually speaking from the "other side" now. But, that doesn't mean I've "relaxed" - not for a minute.

Deej - I truly wish you could experience what MEM and I apparently have. I think it's in your future - somehow, some way.

You deserve it.


----------



## Catherine602

MEM I appreciate your relationship advice which is is clear and at times brilliant but I think you have not figured out your own relationship. I can't believe your wife said she was sorry. WOW. MEM how did you luck out to have so wonderful a wife that you have put her through so much? I now see something she does not see apparently but I bet you do. You need her much more than she needs you. She should have called you bluff with your boundaries stuff. she may yet do that she is smart enough she just has not been pushed far enough. 

She is the one with the real value, too bad she does not know. But it is typical of woman to think that men have all of the options due to the low value pop culture tries to inflict on women. I guess some finally realize their value, maybe that's why 75% of divorces are initiated by women after the children are out of the home. You would never find anyone like her ever again if you cheated on her. You will manage to find a sex partner, they are a dime a dozen but never a woman that comes anywhere close to the woman you have now. But I think you know that. If I were you, i would treat her according her value in your life, lest she be pushed the point of reflection and have an epiphany and realize her value and call your bluff next time you said or did anything to indicate she had no value. 

Her intelligence and guile may yet bring her to realize her value against some random sexual partner you might humiliate her with. 

Funny I just now saw that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Honorable conduct produced a positive result*

Reaching,
She didn't push it to failure. Just to the point where - one morning I couldn't finish. I stayed ummm - up - just could not reach the rapture....

Still - I DID have anxiety. 



reachingshore said:


> Hmm.. I can think of 3 options:
> 
> a. At the time she didn't feel like needing much of sex, you had to kinda force her to it - I am sure on certain level it wasn't pleasant to you either thus in a way it took away from the quality of experience.
> 
> At the time she decided to turn the tables on you, when technically you should be in heaven.. uh, "technical" difficulties.
> 
> b. She talked about your difficulties with "education". Proper education according to MEM's Wife: "Now you finally learned that in the end it's never really about sex, but about love and devotion"
> 
> c. _(since I have no clue what her body language/tone of voice was)_ **poke**  **poke**  **poke** in regards to, uh, "technical" difficulties, and your enforced and somewhat painful realization thereof
> 
> 
> 
> So.. can we all start celebrating the victory in this particular (stage of) "conflict"/friction/battle?


----------



## reachingshore

My take on the sorry is slightly different, Catherine.

Not this -> "I am sorry for putting you through this" (apology)

But this -> "I am sorry (matter-of-factly). It had to be done for you to get the point" (with a tinge of empathy and sympathy)

BUT.. her actual wording was perfect! Allows for either-or, or both at once. It all actually depends only on how MEM interprets it. 

Very smart 

MEM: I never said "failure". I said "technical difficulties".


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,
Think about this for a moment. The person best able to perceive the "gestalt" of this situation - and it is not a simple situation by any stretch - is my W. If you think about the context in which she apologized for her part in this - she did so without ANY pressure from me. In fact I was frankly shocked. I had just acknowledged my piece of this - and apologized. 

Even though INITIALLY this was ENTIRELY an exercise in education/training, something about this situation did cause her drive to explode. Regardless of WHY it did, we had a week where she became almost crazed with desire. THAT part I can tell you was real. And I think that suddenly for the very first time she saw what it was like to be the HD partner. And it was a lightbulb moment. 

We have spent almost 8,000 days together. And I think suddenly she realized that there have been a couple thousand nights where I WANTED to, she didn't and I was 100 percent supportive, kind and understanding. That recognition on her part - was purely a happy accident for BOTH of us. At some level she has always "known" it, but last night she "felt" it. 

It isn't a small thing she routinely says "you treat me like gold". So while I freely acknowledge that I got off "light" here, this situation is no where near as one sided as it might seem at first glance. 



Catherine602 said:


> MEM I appreciate your relationship advice which is is clear and at times brilliant but I think you have not figured out your own relationship. I can't believe your wife said she was sorry. WOW. MEM how did you luck out to have so wonderful a wife that you have put her through so much? I now see something she does not see apparently but I bet you do. You need her much more than she needs you. She should have called you bluff with your boundaries stuff. she may yet do that she is smart enough she just has not been pushed far enough.
> 
> She is the one with the real value, too bad she does not know. But it is typical of woman to think that men have all of the options due to the low value pop culture tries to inflict on women. I guess some finally realize their value, maybe that's why 75% of divorces are initiated by women after the children are out of the home. You would never find anyone like her ever again if you cheated on her. You will manage to find a sex partner, they are a dime a dozen but never a woman that comes anywhere close to the woman you have now. But I think you know that. If I were you, i would treat her according her value in your life, lest she be pushed the point of reflection and have an epiphany and realize her value and call your bluff next time you said or did anything to indicate she had no value.
> 
> Her intelligence and guile may yet bring her to realize her value against some random sexual partner you might humiliate her with.
> 
> Funny I just now saw that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Honorable conduct produced a positive result*

Actually last year was our "low water" mark. I just let her initiate as I could tell she was so not feeling it. 

After our confrontation 2-3 months ago frequency and quality increased for both of us. 

As for last night - hah - I 'thought' the test was over. She totally gaslighted me. I got "out" of this morning because I had to leave for a very unusual Sunday morning work thing. NOT golf. Real work. Up at 6 am. I TRIED to gently extricate from tonight. I am TIRED. Genuinely TIRED. Not of sex - it was a looonnnngggg day. I was a total stud today. I did the work thing this morning - which was physical. Closed a decent sized sale right afterwards. Did 6 load of laundry. Cooked a kick ass dinner. Played 1.5 hours of racquetball with her. I think I EARNED the night off. Apparently I didn't. Jeesh - today was SUNDAY. Oh - and did I mention I installed a new shower head this afternoon. FCS - what do you have to do around here to get a ONE NIGHT reprieve? She just smiled and said - relax I will do ALL the work if need be. And then in perfect mimicry of the "jerky me" said "but we talked about it earlier and I have been looking forward to IT all day". Why did I EVER get in the habit of saying that? 







reachingshore said:


> Hmm.. I can think of 3 options:
> 
> a. At the time she didn't feel like needing much of sex, you had to kinda force her to it - I am sure on certain level it wasn't pleasant to you either thus in a way it took away from the quality of experience.
> 
> At the time she decided to turn the tables on you, when technically you should be in heaven.. uh, "technical" difficulties.
> 
> b. She talked about your difficulties with "education". Proper education according to MEM's Wife: "Now you finally learned that in the end it's never really about sex, but about love and devotion"
> 
> c. _(since I have no clue what her body language/tone of voice was)_ **poke**  **poke**  **poke** in regards to, uh, "technical" difficulties, and your enforced and somewhat painful realization thereof
> 
> 
> 
> So.. can we all start celebrating the victory in this particular (stage of) "conflict"/friction/battle?


----------



## LonelyNLost

MEM, your wife is a perfect match for you. This somewhat humorous but very real experiment by your brilliant wife hopefully taught you something. I know I won't forget it! She's a mastermind and it sounds like she pulled it all off perfectly.


----------



## Kobo

MEM11363 said:


> Actually last year was our "low water" mark. I just let her initiate as I could tell she was so not feeling it.
> 
> After our confrontation 2-3 months ago frequency and quality increased for both of us.
> 
> As for last night - hah - I 'thought' the test was over. She totally gaslighted me. I got "out" of this morning because I had to leave for a very unusual Sunday morning work thing. NOT golf. Real work. Up at 6 am. I TRIED to gently extricate from tonight. I am TIRED. Genuinely TIRED. Not of sex - it was a looonnnngggg day. I was a total stud today. I did the work thing this morning - which was physical. Closed a decent sized sale right afterwards. Did 6 load of laundry. Cooked a kick ass dinner. Played 1.5 hours of racquetball with her. I think I EARNED the night off. Apparently I didn't. Jeesh - today was SUNDAY. Oh - and did I mention I installed a new shower head this afternoon. FCS - what do you have to do around here to get a ONE NIGHT reprieve? She just smiled and said - relax I will do ALL the work if need be. And then in perfect mimicry of the "jerky me" said "but we talked about it earlier and I have been looking forward to IT all day". Why did I EVER get in the habit of saying that?


Haven't read all the post but I fail to see a problem here  IMO you need to look at This a challenge. let the alpha take over for the beta . See what you still got. If she can get it up then you put it down. Good luck. Sounds like a good time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## reachingshore

MEM, at this point I would say she might be really really enjoying herself physically. She mentally developed a taste for it?

Let me explain. Right in the beginning of our relationship it became clear to me that my husband (once he gets to it) will not leave me be after I've had 1, 2 or 3 orgasms. I remember we were in the middle of doing it and I felt I couldn't take it anymore, that's it for me, I can't anymore. But he kept going. I thought "Damn, he is still enjoying himself. Why can't I? Why shouldn't I?". Right at THAT moment, BAM, enter another orgasm. But.. but.. but.. I thought I couldn't anymore!!??

I view it as up until that time, he'd had to kinda coax those orgasms out of me. Since then I _just have them_. It's mental, not physical. It completely changed my perception.

Your Wife might be reeeeeeeally into it right now. If that's the case, You are screwed.


----------



## Conrad

reachingshore said:


> MEM, at this point I would say she might be really really enjoying herself physically. She mentally developed a taste for it?
> 
> Let me explain. Right in the beginning of our relationship it became clear to me that my husband (once he gets to it) will not leave me be after I've had 1, 2 or 3 orgasms. I remember we were in the middle of doing it and I felt I couldn't take it anymore, that's it for me, I can't anymore. But he kept going. I thought "Damn, he is still enjoying himself. Why can't I? Why shouldn't I?". Right at THAT moment, BAM, enter another orgasm. But.. but.. but.. I thought I couldn't anymore!!??
> 
> I view it as up until that time, he'd had to kinda coax those orgasms out of me. Since then I _just have them_. It's mental, not physical. It completely changed my perception.
> 
> Your Wife might be reeeeeeeally into it right now. If that's the case, You are screwed.


Those who live by the gun.....


----------



## reachingshore

The sword, Conrad.. the SWORD


----------



## Blue Moon

I feel kinda like Superman died. Entertaining stuff though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Please stand by - we are experiencing technical difficulties*

Last night - I was able to perform. 

This morning however:
- Hydraulic system required 15 minutes to activate. Fortunately once it came online it worked properly
- Orgasmic ignition system repeatedly failed to fire, ejaculatory release did not occur. After extended attempts to achieve ignition the effort was aborted and the system shut down

She however reached the rapture and was happy.




reachingshore said:


> MEM, at this point I would say she might be really really enjoying herself physically. She mentally developed a taste for it?
> 
> Let me explain. Right in the beginning of our relationship it became clear to me that my husband (once he gets to it) will not leave me be after I've had 1, 2 or 3 orgasms. I remember we were in the middle of doing it and I felt I couldn't take it anymore, that's it for me, I can't anymore. But he kept going. I thought "Damn, he is still enjoying himself. Why can't I? Why shouldn't I?". Right at THAT moment, BAM, enter another orgasm. But.. but.. but.. I thought I couldn't anymore!!??
> 
> I view it as up until that time, he'd had to kinda coax those orgasms out of me. Since then I _just have them_. It's mental, not physical. It completely changed my perception.
> 
> Your Wife might be reeeeeeeally into it right now. If that's the case, You are screwed.


----------



## Conrad

*Re: Please stand by - we are experiencing technical difficulties*



MEM11363 said:


> Last night - I was able to perform.
> 
> This morning however:
> - Hydraulic system required 15 minutes to activate. Fortunately once it came online it worked properly
> - Orgasmic ignition system repeatedly failed to fire, ejaculatory release did not occur. After extended attempts to achieve ignition the effort was aborted and the system shut down
> 
> She however reached the rapture and was happy.


In all seriousness, your good humor throughout this - not to mention your openness - reinforces your bonafides.


----------



## reachingshore

*Re: Please stand by - we are experiencing technical difficulties*



MEM11363 said:


> Last night - I was able to perform.
> 
> This morning however:
> - Hydraulic system required 15 minutes to activate. Fortunately once it came online it worked properly
> - Orgasmic ignition system repeatedly failed to fire, ejaculatory release did not occur. After extended attempts to achieve ignition the effort was aborted and the system shut down
> 
> She however reached the rapture and was happy.


When you talk about it in those terms I really have a difficulty resisting bursting with laughter because I immediately think of Houston :rofl:


----------



## Affaircare

MEM~

I am stepping out on a limb here. First things first though, I believe you should know that we also have reached that age in life where occasionally the launch sequence will not fire thrusters. That is to say...there is ignition! There just is no (ahem) launch. Thus, we have a code: "Houston, we have a problem"  And just so you know...it is funny but that is not a joke! That's actually our code for ... those little moments. 

Now, here's the limb part. As a lady, I have to somewhat giggle with the other ladies on this thread at your wife's ingenuity. She is clearly your match, and I admire her already just because she is! But there is something here that seems to be escaping you or is at least not being mentioned. You tend to be a fella who is pretty "alpha in control" and she tends to sound like a lady who can be your fellow competitor...and for the most part the friction from that competition makes you two an excellent match. However, what has occurred here is that for the past couple/several days you have experienced the way that your lovely bride has felt probably for years. 

Part of the problem is that YOU want to have Power Over her in your sex life, and she has now clearly demonstrated that she can have Power Over you in your sex life. All the weariness that you feel now for a few days...she has felt long term. All the concern that all she wants you for is your "launch capabilities"...she has felt long term. Your threats to go elsewhere if she won't meet your need was possibly (probably?) meant by you as an assertion of your boundary...and it was felt by her as a threat to get rid of her if she didn't "perform to par." Yet you have felt this for really a relatively short period of time and now you're thinking/hoping that "the test is over" or "okay...she got me...now let's go back to normal." 

I think not. 

The dynamic you have got to realize is that just around the time men begin to occasionally misfire on all thrusters, women suddenly discover hyperfuel. At our age of life, we know what pleases us (no longer young and naive) and the kids are growing/grown so we kick into what feels like overdrive. I know in my mid-forties it felt a lot like a "second honeymoon" stage, and this time it was 1000 times better because I know me better and have done enough to know that I like A and not B. Know what I mean?

Sooooo...I believe it may be time to have a chat with your wife, and the two of you (meaning her...but also YOU) take two cards off the table: Power Over and Threats. Power struggles have no place in a sex life. I agree that as a married couple, it is as ridiculous to say "I've decided to not have sex with you anymore" as it is to say "I've decided to not financially support you anymore" as it is to say "I've decided to stop being affectionate with you anymore." Part of the RESPONSIBILITY of marriage is meeting your spouse's need for sexual expression. BUT!!!!!!!! (big 'but' here) meeting that need to avoid a THREAT is not really meeting that need willingly and out of love. For a long time now, you basically said to her "...do this thing (that you should be doing out of love for me willingly) or I will do that one thing that is a foundational threat..." That is not a happy place from which to have sex! 

This is why I suggest removing the Power Over and Threats. Talk instead about you not having Power Over her to force her to have sex she doesn't absolutely want...and her not having Power Over just removing the sex card. Talk about you not Threatening her security and her not Threatening yours. Because let's face it, part of the issue you're having now is "If the launch sequence does not get past countdown several days in a row...will she leave me for someone who can hit the launch schedule?"


----------



## MEM2020

*Lmao*

Blue,
Thats a howler



Blue Moon said:


> I feel kinda like Superman died. Entertaining stuff though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Please stand by - we are experiencing technical difficulties*

Conrad,
Thank you. 

It was a long day yesterday. Driving home I am thinking - quick dinner, finish up a proposal that is almost done, race off to racquetball, back to house at 10:15 to 10:30. Shower and in bed at 11:15 or so. I know I will be worthless by then. So I call her from the car and try - diplomatically to get her to agree to waive her marital privilege. She puts me off with:
"lets talk about it later, but I think you are VASTLY underestimating your stamina." 

Last night she says to me: Thanks for handling all these sales (we have a small construction company she runs) lately. 

Sure thing I say smiling. (I have had a good run the last month)

And then she says this: "I know sales can be stressful at times", I look up suspiciously wondering where this is going. She says: 
"I want you to know that when you win deals, we will make love to celebrate, and when you lose to console you. Win or lose, we will make love."

Very funny. Very freakin funny. Where does she come up with this stuff? 

She says this while she is giving me a back/neck massage. I just mutter some mild imprecation under my breath. She adds "tonight though, since your neck hurts, you are tired and you have a history of being gracious when I ask for the night off, you may have the night off"

I look up entirely too hopeful, and she smiles and says in that soft reassuring voice the queen uses just before she gives Snow White the poison apple: 
"I don't want you to think our new "routine" is over though. It isn't. No one could learn in a week what they steadfastly refused to acknowledge for 21 years. 

And that is just how bad you feel when you are doing the absolute best you can to please your partner, and they manage to let you know it just isn't quite good enough. My original plan was for 18 months. Given how much fun it is, you can't possibly expect me to give it up after only a week." 

I just nodded and asked what time she had set our wakeup alarm for. She told me 5 am and I just smiled. And this morning we were "all systems go" on both sides. 




Conrad said:


> In all seriousness, your good humor throughout this - not to mention your openness - reinforces your bonafides.


----------



## Affaircare

Just thought I'd send a clue your way. The way to take the wind out of her sails (if at all) is not going to be to try to "beg out of it." Exactly how did YOU like it when she tried to beg out of it? On one hand part of you may not have minded if she said "Not this moment dear but how about (in the morning....this evening)?" so that she wasn't putting it off endlessly but perhaps to give her some time to catch her breath...right? So you trying to "beg out of it" will likely go over as a wet washcloth! 

I would say, if you really want to try to end this frequency, set your OWN alarm for 4:45am, splash your face, be ready as can be, and have some new toy or outfit or something with that "heh heh" devilish grin on your face. The midday one--YOU come home and tackle HER! Evening one, you can not WAIT for it--bring it on! Let's get this party started! WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!

THEN after a couple days like that say: "Well...shall we talk about this now?"


----------



## Trenton

Purchase a Superman costume and go to bed in that. Yes, that would work very, very well!


----------



## MEM2020

AC,
I agree with this. To add some color - last year was a tough year for her all around. She seemed depressed a certain amount and she was certainly fatigued from running the business we own. I actually let her initiate most of our encounters during that time. If I had to guess we connected maybe 70 times give or take a little. The funny thing is the reason I didn't push it was I KNEW she wasn't feeling it. And I felt bad for her. And I knew with just a little pressure she would up the frequency but that just seemed wrong. And on all those nights we DIDN'T I tried to make sure she knew I was fine with it even though overall I was getting slowly more concerned that her desire for me was going, going - and soon to be gone. 

The thing is - during the first 18 or 19 of our 21 years together I DID control our sex life which was not healthy. And control is the right word. So now - even the slightest bad behavior - provokes an outsize reaction. 

As for talking. I think she thinks that the only means of communicating how this "feels" for her - is for me to "feel" it as opposed to hearing about it. 





Affaircare said:


> MEM~
> 
> I am stepping out on a limb here. First things first though, I believe you should know that we also have reached that age in life where occasionally the launch sequence will not fire thrusters. That is to say...there is ignition! There just is no (ahem) launch. Thus, we have a code: "Houston, we have a problem"  And just so you know...it is funny but that is not a joke! That's actually our code for ... those little moments.
> 
> Now, here's the limb part. As a lady, I have to somewhat giggle with the other ladies on this thread at your wife's ingenuity. She is clearly your match, and I admire her already just because she is! But there is something here that seems to be escaping you or is at least not being mentioned. You tend to be a fella who is pretty "alpha in control" and she tends to sound like a lady who can be your fellow competitor...and for the most part the friction from that competition makes you two an excellent match. However, what has occurred here is that for the past couple/several days you have experienced the way that your lovely bride has felt probably for years.
> 
> Part of the problem is that YOU want to have Power Over her in your sex life, and she has now clearly demonstrated that she can have Power Over you in your sex life. All the weariness that you feel now for a few days...she has felt long term. All the concern that all she wants you for is your "launch capabilities"...she has felt long term. Your threats to go elsewhere if she won't meet your need was possibly (probably?) meant by you as an assertion of your boundary...and it was felt by her as a threat to get rid of her if she didn't "perform to par." Yet you have felt this for really a relatively short period of time and now you're thinking/hoping that "the test is over" or "okay...she got me...now let's go back to normal."
> 
> I think not.
> 
> The dynamic you have got to realize is that just around the time men begin to occasionally misfire on all thrusters, women suddenly discover hyperfuel. At our age of life, we know what pleases us (no longer young and naive) and the kids are growing/grown so we kick into what feels like overdrive. I know in my mid-forties it felt a lot like a "second honeymoon" stage, and this time it was 1000 times better because I know me better and have done enough to know that I like A and not B. Know what I mean?
> 
> Sooooo...I believe it may be time to have a chat with your wife, and the two of you (meaning her...but also YOU) take two cards off the table: Power Over and Threats. Power struggles have no place in a sex life. I agree that as a married couple, it is as ridiculous to say "I've decided to not have sex with you anymore" as it is to say "I've decided to not financially support you anymore" as it is to say "I've decided to stop being affectionate with you anymore." Part of the RESPONSIBILITY of marriage is meeting your spouse's need for sexual expression. BUT!!!!!!!! (big 'but' here) meeting that need to avoid a THREAT is not really meeting that need willingly and out of love. For a long time now, you basically said to her "...do this thing (that you should be doing out of love for me willingly) or I will do that one thing that is a foundational threat..." That is not a happy place from which to have sex!
> 
> This is why I suggest removing the Power Over and Threats. Talk instead about you not having Power Over her to force her to have sex she doesn't absolutely want...and her not having Power Over just removing the sex card. Talk about you not Threatening her security and her not Threatening yours. Because let's face it, part of the issue you're having now is "If the launch sequence does not get past countdown several days in a row...will she leave me for someone who can hit the launch schedule?"


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Purchase a Superman costume and go to bed in that. Yes, that would work very, very well!


Screw the costume, just wear the red briefs and boots.


----------



## Affaircare

MEM11363 said:


> AC,
> I agree with this. To add some color - last year was a tough year for her all around. She seemed depressed a certain amount and she was certainly fatigued from running the business we own. I actually let her initiate most of our encounters during that time. If I had to guess we connected maybe 70 times give or take a little. The funny thing is the reason I didn't push it was I KNEW she wasn't feeling it. And I felt bad for her. And I knew with just a little pressure she would up the frequency but that just seemed wrong. And on all those nights we DIDN'T I tried to make sure she knew I was fine with it even though overall I was getting slowly more concerned that her desire for me was going, going - and soon to be gone.


And so in your mind the solution to desire that is going..is to force more frequent sex? Force may be a harsher than what really occurred, but what I mean is that desire is linked to other things as well, and NO I do not mean "Do the dishes and we'll have more sex"  I can honestly say I've never felt STEAMY desire for a man who just did the dishes! :rofl: 

Maybe rather than a conversation about sex what about a conversation about intimacy? There are plenty of physical ups and downs as a couple goes through life (babies, schedules, hormones, etc.) but the intimacy of DEEPLY knowing, deeply revealing, and deeply connecting with each other can really re-invigorate desire. 

Just a thought--stab in the dark really. 



> The thing is - during the first 18 or 19 of our 21 years together I DID control our sex life which was not healthy. And control is the right word. So now - even the slightest bad behavior - provokes an outsize reaction.
> 
> As for talking. I think she thinks that the only means of communicating how this "feels" for her - is for me to "feel" it as opposed to hearing about it.


Ah! Well that does shed a little more light. And I'll be honest...my guess is that by hearing about it, perhaps you comprehended it in your mind but did not communicate or demonstrate empathy. I will say that just by what you wrote it sounds like you had some "head knowledge" that it might feel "this way" or "that way" for her but didn't truly have *understanding* until began this judo maneuver and really brought that mirror right up in front of your face. Thus, it's educated but my guess is that she may have reason to believe that you have to "feel" it as opposed to hearing about it because when you heard about it, the actions you chose did not demonstrate understanding what it would feel like or empathy for what she was going through. If nothing else, you could increase the non-sexual intimacy by sharing with her what you've learned about yourself by going through this little exercise.


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## MEM2020

AC,
Thank you for taking the time to help me. Your points are as always well made. Lets start where you began, with desire.

Last year her lack of desire was at least half on me. At least. I was overall less helpful than I should be and that took a toll over time. I have fixed that piece. 

The other part was me failing to do things that do create desire. There are a short list of specific activities that get her "lit up" in general and that makes her much more likely to feel desire. I am making sure we do a good mix of those - plus a random activity here and there for variety. 

As for deeply knowing. We do - and that makes the strong bond that brings her to our bed with a loving and giving heart when she lacks desire. It does not however seem to generate desire. And that is ok. I do it because I like being in her head and am good with her being in mine. 

Saturday - the "catalyst" - UGH. I was not sufficiently in her head enough to know she was very stressed about a work situation. So we finish racquetball and it is 10 pm. Hey it is saturday night. I just gave her 2 hours of racquet sex. Yes - that IS how I think of it. She physically gets the same anticipatory rush from playing rball I do from regular sex. But we get home and I am getting the "we can if you want" vibe. 

And I didn't handle it nicely. Without being tiresomely detailed, I made some comments that conveyed my irritation. That was just plain wrong. There were only 2 right paths. Either ask her to play - she would have said yes. Or be nice about her lack of desire. Oh yeah - and ask her if she was ok. Because I would have found out what she was worried about - cash flow at work. Just coming out of the slow season. Work is ramping up fast. But she hates tight cash flow. 

So she has made her intentions clear. She wants me to live the life of the "LD" partner for a while. As for trying to beat her at her game by upping my game. ROTFL. Think about it. She started off asking for 3 a days. Did so with a straight face. She knows I can't do 3 a days. I have told her that before when she temporarily went hypersexual. She got the flu within days of that burst of crazy lust she had - which saved my azz. When she recovered from the flu - the hypersexuality had vanished - thank God. 

So if I try and up the ante she will just keep doubling down. Remember she has been "playing" (mostly but not always in fun) alpha dominance games with me for 21 years. She will see through this tactic faster than you can say "ha". 

My W is capable of being mean. It doesn't happen very often but I recognize it when I see or experience it first hand. That does not seem to be her motivation here. Rather this feels very, very intentional. Don't get me wrong, she is having the time of her life mirroring my behavior back at me. But while she can't help but be entertained by my anxiety the goal itself is not "anxiety", that is purely a side benefit. She wants empathy. Sincere, genuine empathy. 

She plans to ensure I am the LD spouse until I really truly get how it feels. 

Right now I am feeling a bit of "self empathy". Or wait - is that just "self pity". 





Affaircare said:


> And so in your mind the solution to desire that is going..is to force more frequent sex? Force may be a harsher than what really occurred, but what I mean is that desire is linked to other things as well, and NO I do not mean "Do the dishes and we'll have more sex"  I can honestly say I've never felt STEAMY desire for a man who just did the dishes! :rofl:
> 
> Maybe rather than a conversation about sex what about a conversation about intimacy? There are plenty of physical ups and downs as a couple goes through life (babies, schedules, hormones, etc.) but the intimacy of DEEPLY knowing, deeply revealing, and deeply connecting with each other can really re-invigorate desire.
> 
> Just a thought--stab in the dark really.
> 
> 
> Ah! Well that does shed a little more light. And I'll be honest...my guess is that by hearing about it, perhaps you comprehended it in your mind but did not communicate or demonstrate empathy. I will say that just by what you wrote it sounds like you had some "head knowledge" that it might feel "this way" or "that way" for her but didn't truly have *understanding* until began this judo maneuver and really brought that mirror right up in front of your face. Thus, it's educated but my guess is that she may have reason to believe that you have to "feel" it as opposed to hearing about it because when you heard about it, the actions you chose did not demonstrate understanding what it would feel like or empathy for what she was going through. If nothing else, you could increase the non-sexual intimacy by sharing with her what you've learned about yourself by going through this little exercise.


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## ctct

So your wife will have sex a lot because she is diabolical and wishes to prove a point

But she won't have sex even a moderate amount out of love or attraction?



I always felt like it wasn't as much the lack of sex, but the lack of love to be willing to care about maintaining a (sexual) relationship.

Some women are frustrated that I prefer one-night stands, non-monogamy, and short relationships, but I just cut it short before they cut it short


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## Affaircare

No that's not the way I read that Mem's W plays. I kind of get her I think because I have a fairly decent playful streak too and competition sort of turns my crank. Any day I play a game, even when it's purely CEREBRAL, and my opponent actually tries to beat me and I best them...OH YEAH!!

From what I can see, there's been one side of him doing his best to set boundaries and not let them be trampled (which is cool); there's been recognition that they are competitive lovers (which is also cool); but when a situation is tiring or more than she'd personally care to initiate...over the years some bit of resentment or at least lack of understanding has built, and from what I can see it seems like she thought this would be a good way to have you experience what she could not communicate via just talking to Mem about it. 

Is that about right, Mem? 

And FYI...when I suggest stepping up the game I don't mean suggesting 4 a days (which would eventually kill even 18yo's) but more taking some of the wind out of the sails rather than begging out, embrace that this is how it's going to be for a little and what the heck--have some fun with it! 

I do think it's vital to communicate that prior to this, you heard but having never experienced it, you really did not understand what it feels like. Now that you have EXPERIENCED it, you realize that looking in the mirror is pretty rough.


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## Conrad

It may eventually kill 18 year olds....

But, what a way to go!


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## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Screw the costume, just wear the red briefs and boots.


I don't know. I'm a fan of the cape. It indicates he can fly except in the case of kryptonite and it seems as if his wife is his kryptonite. So...adorn the cape, admit defeat while still being a super hero. The humor, coupled with the underlining meaning is oh so very poignant.


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## Affaircare

Conrad said:


> It may eventually kill 18 year olds....
> 
> But, what a way to go!












Amen! For the good of fellow man, I'm willing to volunteer.....
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Grayson

Conrad said:


> MEM,
> 
> This is a pharmacist to patient post:
> 
> If you really want to turn the tables, I can give you some leads on some reputable international websites that will fill your medicine cabinet with just what you need.
> 
> She will eventually beg for mercy and you will die with a smile on your face.


Sure, it's a week ago, but I'm just now checking out the thread... ;-)

Mind if I get some of those leads too, Conrad?

To risk thread drift and my own TMI, doc prescribed me daily dose Cialis, but insurance won't cover the whole thing. He'll gladly write me a 3 month Rx to go Canadian mail order, but in all the price comparison I've done, the lowest price still comes out just being about a total of 20 bucks less than buying them a month at a time without going through insurance.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

I have "begged out" as little as possible. I am convinced that casually "begging out" just because I didn't feel like it, would seem like a refusal to "participate" in this exercise. And I know that would produce a nuclear winter the likes of which I have no interest in experiencing. 

So I have been doing my best to - umm - keep up - the pace. When we play and I cannot finish I believe she correctly perceives that result as being a byproduct of me pushing my body to its limit in an attempt to keep the pace she is setting. 

I am confident she sees that result as a "very good faith effort" to understand what life is like for the LD spouse. And in fact she is correct. 

Holy crap - last night I had a "headache". A real one. Not a pretend one. I worked a 15 hour day (which is very, very rare for me) and missed dinner. Blood sugar crashed - headache kicked in. So last night I tell her I have a headache, profusely apologize and ask if there is any way we can connect "tomorrow". I say "I really am sorry - I feel bad for disappointing you. 

So she is finding this whole reversal thing rather funny. A bit of time passes and she says to me:
"You ever read about those "guard / prisoner" studies. I just look at her. I already know where this is going. She continues "take a group of college students - make some of them guards and the others prisoners". They quickly "fall into" their roles. After a week you suddenly switch them. Amazing how quickly they adopt their "new" roles." She smiles at me.

So here I am. Submitting to my "new" role as the LD partner. 




Affaircare said:


> No that's not the way I read that Mem's W plays. I kind of get her I think because I have a fairly decent playful streak too and competition sort of turns my crank. Any day I play a game, even when it's purely CEREBRAL, and my opponent actually tries to beat me and I best them...OH YEAH!!
> 
> From what I can see, there's been one side of him doing his best to set boundaries and not let them be trampled (which is cool); there's been recognition that they are competitive lovers (which is also cool); but when a situation is tiring or more than she'd personally care to initiate...over the years some bit of resentment or at least lack of understanding has built, and from what I can see it seems like she thought this would be a good way to have you experience what she could not communicate via just talking to Mem about it.
> 
> Is that about right, Mem?
> 
> And FYI...when I suggest stepping up the game I don't mean suggesting 4 a days (which would eventually kill even 18yo's) but more taking some of the wind out of the sails rather than begging out, embrace that this is how it's going to be for a little and what the heck--have some fun with it!
> 
> I do think it's vital to communicate that prior to this, you heard but having never experienced it, you really did not understand what it feels like. Now that you have EXPERIENCED it, you realize that looking in the mirror is pretty rough.


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## nice777guy

Have to ask - since you are having problems finishing (as most men would) - have you faked any???


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## Draguna

Ooh, good question NG, would like to know as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

CTCT,
From which of my posts did you draw the conclusion she won't have even a "moderate" amount of sex out of love/attraction?

We have always had a high to moderate amount of sex. Half out of desire on her part - the other half out of love. 




ctct said:


> So your wife will have sex a lot because she is diabolical and wishes to prove a point
> 
> But she won't have sex even a moderate amount out of love or attraction?
> 
> 
> 
> I always felt like it wasn't as much the lack of sex, but the lack of love to be willing to care about maintaining a (sexual) relationship.
> 
> Some women are frustrated that I prefer one-night stands, non-monogamy, and short relationships, but I just cut it short before they cut it short


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## MEM2020

NG,
Fair question. I got a vasectomy 13 years ago. So we connect skin to skin. Hard to fake in that situation. No I have't tried. But the V doesn't change the quantity of ejaculate in a measurable way so there is no way to fake it.





nice777guy said:


> Have to ask - since you are having problems finishing (as most men would) - have you faked any???


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## nice777guy

MEM11363 said:


> NG,
> Fair question. I got a vasectomy 13 years ago. So we connect skin to skin. Hard to fake in that situation. No I have't tried. But the V doesn't change the quantity of ejaculate in a measurable way so there is no way to fake it.


The V doesn't, but I know that I see "diminishing returns" on anything past the first big one.


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## Deejo

So what are the odds that beloved wife derived her mad scheme by reading YOUR threads here?


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## Kobo

Still don't see the problem here. Buck up


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## reachingshore

How's it going in the land of Superman with no cape?


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## MEM2020

RS,
She has gradually shifted to a "manageable" pace.    

I didn't like my "stint" as the LD spouse. I definitely do like being the "equal" drive spouse. If forced to choose though, I would take 2 times a week over 14 times a week in a half a heartbeat. 




reachingshore said:


> How's it going in the land of Superman with no cape?


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## Deejo

What I find most frightening is that in a week's time, you have equaled or exceeded the sexual quota that many others here share ... annually.


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## Blue Moon

Deejo said:


> What I find most frightening is that in a week's time, you have equaled or exceeded the sexual quota that many others here share ... annually.



Scary indeed, lol. It's kind of like the NFL lockout, fans miss football but no one feels sorry for multimillionaires losing their health insurance. Based on the posts I see around TAM, I don't think MEM will be getting much sympathy on this "problem."


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