# Ending an EA that never went physical -- better to come clean or not?



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

This is water under the bridge for me, but years ago I had an EA. When I realized I needed to end it, I told my wife about it. A close family member of mine who I told about the situation thought I had done the wrong thing, that I should have never told -- she even said it was "selfish" of me to tell her, and that I was just hurting her. But for me it seemed like the necessary thing to do to make a complete break in the EA and to restore a sense of honesty and trust between me and my spouse. Of course the OW also tried to convince me I did the wrong thing by telling (when I gave her the "it's over" talk), but I can hardly trust her motives on that.

Anyway, I just wonder what people think about this -- better to tell or not?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

IMO , Your family member has never been cheated on or is a rug sweeper.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

mablenc said:


> IMO , Your family member has never been cheated on or is a rug sweeper.


Come to think of it "rug-sweeping" kind of describes this person's way of dealing with a lot of things.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Most here will say that you did the right thing.

Some counselors will say tell, other will say not.

I do not pretend to know what it right. Sometimes I wish that I had not found out and spared the pain (for PAs).

Only about half of all affairs are ever found out by the BS.


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

I think you did the right thing.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

mablenc said:


> IMO , Your family member has never been cheated on or is a rug sweeper.


Ugh, actually the more I think about this, the more it makes sense. The relative is my mom. This fits so much with everything I've come to understand about her.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Always better to tell, IMO. If the BS finds out later it makes it that much worse. It was certainly not "selfish" of you to do so. Being honest about it shows respect for your BS.


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## Mylife1234 (Oct 8, 2013)

Im divorcing my husband because he had a 4 week EA (from the timeline ive come up with). If he would have come clean and cut it on his own, I would have forgiven. Its the lies after lies after lies I cant forgive.

Please note mine was also a possible PA, I will never know the truth.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

There's nothing "selfish" in being honest with your spouse so that they are free to make their own decisions about the marriage with all the facts at hand.

By telling her you made yourself accountable for your affair. The right decision without question.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> This is water under the bridge for me, but years ago I had an EA. When I realized I needed to end it, I told my wife about it. A close family member of mine who I told about the situation thought I had done the wrong thing, that I should have never told -- she even said it was "selfish" of me to tell her, and that I was just hurting her. But for me it seemed like the necessary thing to do to make a complete break in the EA and to restore a sense of honesty and trust between me and my spouse. Of course the OW also tried to convince me I did the wrong thing by telling (when I gave her the "it's over" talk), but I can hardly trust her motives on that.
> 
> Anyway, I just wonder what people think about this -- better to tell or not?


You did the right thing. Better to tell and "man up" - your wife was probably not thrilled... But I'm sure she eventually came around to see you ended it on your own, because you respected your marriage, told her, which I'm certain was a little bit of excruciating.
How DID she take it? Are you asking this question because it still comes up when you have a disagreement?

Are there any reasons you wish you didn't tell her? Can only speak for myself, but if my H had come to me and told me about his long distance EA, it would almost be a non issue..(almost!)
But since I discovered it on my own and got TT for two years, it has filled me with resentment, a lack of respect for him, and anger although I am on a better path now.
As I said in another post,
I am evolving. 
Better an ugly truth, than a beautiful lie.

You did the right thing 100%!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

She took it hard, but I do think it was better in the end that I told her, and we did restore trust in our marriage. I guess I know in my heart that I did the right thing -- it's only the fact that my own mother suggested I didn't that has left any lingering doubts. The real mistake, obviously, was telling my mother -- that I regret. I also stopped telling my mother about my marriage issues years ago, and that, too, was the right decision.

I also needed her "help" I think understanding boundaries. For example, months after I ended it, I met the OW for coffee, just to "catch up." I told my wife afterwards, but not before, and she went ballistic, understandably. But at the time I was still slightly under the delusion, thinking "no big deal, I'll just meet her for coffee, see how she's doing." The OW was somewhat persistent after I cut her off -- e-mails, gchat messages, and it took me a little time to realize that I had to stop taking the bait. I was "susceptible." The fact that I had told my wife, and that I agreed to tell her about all subsequent contact, meant that my wife could actually "help" me break the spell. She is a wonderful and patient woman and I love her more for her willingness to do that in spite of how much I hurt her.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> She took it hard, but I do think it was better in the end that I told her, and we did restore trust in our marriage. I guess I know in my heart that I did the right thing -- it's only the fact that my own mother suggested I didn't that has left any lingering doubts. The real mistake, obviously, was telling my mother -- that I regret. I also stopped telling my mother about my marriage issues years ago, and that, too, was the right decision.
> 
> I also needed her "help" I think understanding boundaries. For example, months after I ended it, I met the OW for coffee, just to "catch up." I told my wife afterwards, but not before, and she went ballistic, understandably. But at the time I was still slightly under the delusion, thinking "no big deal, I'll just meet her for coffee, see how she's doing." The OW was somewhat persistent after I cut her off -- e-mails, gchat messages, and it took me a little time to realize that I had to stop taking the bait. I was "susceptible." The fact that I had told my wife, and that I agreed to tell her about all subsequent contact, meant that my wife could actually "help" me break the spell. She is a wonderful and patient woman and I love her more for her willingness to do that in spite of how much I hurt her.


It is very good to read all this! I am happy for you both that you came through it and that you wrote such kind things about your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

Looking back on it now, what do you think the "spell" was exactly? 
When did it shift from friendship, to an EA? Do you see the warning signs now, that were t clear back then?'
And how long did it take your wife to come back emotionally? 
Sorry for the barrage of questions ... Just interested in the perspective of the H on the other side of an EA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrsmartian (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanks John Lee, for posting this.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Looking back on it now, what do you think the "spell" was exactly?
> When did it shift from friendship, to an EA? Do you see the warning signs now, that were t clear back then?'
> And how long did it take your wife to come back emotionally?
> Sorry for the barrage of questions ... Just interested in the perspective of the H on the other side of an EA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


These are hard questions to answer -- I mean that's the thing about an EA. When you have a PA, there's a clear line -- if not sex then it's the moment you kiss or hold hands or do something that clearly shows physical affectionl 

When I say "the spell," here's what I think happened to me -- I found a woman who gave me a lot of attention, who thought all my jokes were funny, who bantered with me, who was always around when I wanted to hang out and who wanted to hang out with me. I think she adored me, and I liked the adoration. And she was a smart and interesting person, and I was flattered that a smart and interesting and attractive person thought I was so interesting and attractive. Meanwhile, my wife, who had been with me a long time, (1) was working a stressful job and was tired and stressed out a lot and (2) obviously wasn't in the "adoring" stage anymore, because no wife can be forever. So the spell was the escape and the attention. Affairs, both emotional and physical, are fantasy or idealized relationships -- you get all the good stuff, the adoration and fun, without all the hardships that naturally come with a real relationship. 

I can't say exactly when it became an "EA," but I can think of a few things -- one would be when I started telling her about problems in my marriage. That's a line in retrospect I've realized I should never have crossed and never will again. Another is when I started feeling like I was sneaking around to hang out with her, it was just this feeling in my gut. Another was a time I remember grabbing lunch with her -- just at a little cheap place, and I suddenly had this feeling like I was on a date with her, like it was romantic, even though there was nothing romantic about getting a couple tacos at a little hole in the wall nearby. 

Then eventually she started more and more dropping hints about us being together, about leaving her spouse, about being together -- it was always sly and indirect, but it would keep showing up in our conversations, and I started to feel weird about it, but at the same time I couldn't stop seeing her. Once she made a bizarre suggestion that "if we just go away together for a weekend, it will probably help us end this whole thing." Like as though a weekend of passion would douse the flame or something. And of course I said I couldn't do that. But I didn't realize just how dishonest a suggestion it was. It might sound twisted, but at times I was even under this illusion that I owed HER something, like I had another girlfriend or wife to please. I even felt guilty toward the OW, which seems really absurd now. She tried to use this against me too, for example once after we ended things and I ran into her, she started telling me about how her divorce was going, and that she was "afraid no one else would marry her" or something. It was only then that I saw she had been trying to manipulate my emotions all along. 

It's hard to say exactly when she "came back to me." I think about a year after, we decided to try to have kids. That was obviously a big step of trust. I don't believe in having kids "to fix a relationship," but the pregnancy and the child did kind of recenter our focus to each other and our child. I feel like now because she sees that I still love her, and that I'm devoting myself to work and family, that she trusts me again. I also made an agreement with her that I wouldn't have any opposite sex "friends" anymore (and she wouldn't either), and I take this very seriously. I keep things very polite with women at work, and I avoid non-professional one-on-one time with them (at least the ones that are not elderly or completely unattractive). 

I was pretty immature when I first met my wife and had to kind of "grow up" during our marriage. I was also raised pretty liberal and I think maybe I didn't understand certain things about boundaries before this happened - I didn't understand why intersex friendships could be any big deal. I had female friends and even roommates in college (of course I was secretly attracted to some of them), and I had a lax attitude about all of it. 

Anyway, that's my story. I'm sure EA's aren't all the same and I can't tell any of you whether your husbands' experiences are like mine.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> These are hard questions to answer -- I mean that's the thing about an EA. When you have a PA, there's a clear line -- if not sex then it's the moment you kiss or hold hands or do something that clearly shows physical affectionl
> 
> When I say "the spell," here's what I think happened to me -- I found a woman who gave me a lot of attention, who thought all my jokes were funny, who bantered with me, who was always around when I wanted to hang out and who wanted to hang out with me. I think she adored me, and I liked the adoration. And she was a smart and interesting person, and I was flattered that a smart and interesting and attractive person thought I was so interesting and attractive. Meanwhile, my wife, who had been with me a long time, (1) was working a stressful job and was tired and stressed out a lot and (2) obviously wasn't in the "adoring" stage anymore, because no wife can be forever. So the spell was the escape and the attention. Affairs, both emotional and physical, are fantasy or idealized relationships -- you get all the good stuff, the adoration and fun, without all the hardships that naturally come with a real relationship.
> 
> ...


I thank you for taking the time to explain your story. It has helped me a great deal. 
EA's seem to follow a pattern- my H wasn't able to communicate as clearly as you, but I see a similarity in your experiences. In fact, it could have been written by him, if he was able to be as clear about it as you are. 
Interesting to me is that the OW also asked my H to meet up with her for a weekend before he and I married to see if their connection was "real" - she sensed my H's not being on board with that idea and she said, " oh, come on, we might not even like each other!" Hmmmm- sneaky, huh?!

Anyway, thank you John Lee - you have helped me more than I can express.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oldrandwisr (Jun 22, 2013)

In a committed relationship between two mature people, it is the right thing to reveal it. Imagine now if you hadn't, what a burden it would be to pack around since you have a conscience. In addition, the constant feeling of being "on the lam", worrying if the truth will come out later from another source could torment you.

As a BS, I would look at it as an opportunity for serious analysis and introspection in our relationship. It would also make me feel respected and improve trust to know he could feel confident to divulge a deep conviction to me instead of being cowardly by rug sweeping. 

It shows maturity.


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## Mzflower (Aug 3, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I do not pretend to know what it right. Sometimes I wish that I had not found out and spared the pain (for PAs).


Boy do I know what you mean. Ugh!


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

An EA is a strange thing -- on one hand, you're preventing yourself from crossing a certain line, and that says something I think -- that some part of you still wants to be loyal and do the right thing and something is holding you back from having a PA. On the other hand, the level of deception and self-deception can be extreme in an EA, because you convince yourself that it's just a "friendship," or that, when it gets beyond that, you can just "step back" a level so it becomes a friendship again. I convinced myself a lot of ridiculous things and concealed a lot from my wife because the fact that we weren't "actually doing anything" made it seem ok in my mind. But of course it wasn't.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

By the way, don't take any of this as a reason to go easy on your spouse if they have an EA. Be hard on them, hold firm. Be angry. Show them how much they hurt you and don't forgive them too easily.


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## Oldrandwisr (Jun 22, 2013)

John Lee said:


> By the way, don't take any of this as a reason to go easy on your spouse if they have an EA. Be hard on them, hold firm. Be angry. Show them how much they hurt you and don't forgive them too easily.


:iagree:

Good to point out. Completely mature couples will show the range of emotions and the offending party will be 100% accountable regardless of the issues in the marriage. The deficiencies, btw which should have been the topic of conversation way back prior to the EA, thus it never would have happened.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> By the way, don't take any of this as a reason to go easy on your spouse if they have an EA. Be hard on them, hold firm. Be angry. Show them how much they hurt you and don't forgive them too easily.


No worries there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BREATHE31 (Aug 31, 2013)

This reminds me of a time in my teens when my boyfriend and I had a few friends over. I was pregnant at the time so I was not drinking with everyone and I was tired. I went to sleep. One of my girlfriends decided to stay and wanted to stay up and keep drinking. The next morning we all got up and the day went on like normal. About two weeks later my friend and I went shopping. When eating lunch she said, " I have something to tell you." It did not sound good. I asked her "Is this going to ruin my day?" She said "yes, probably." I said, " I don't want to know." 

About a month passed and I had forgotten about it, when another friend of mine called and said, "I HAVE to tell you something." She preceded to refer to the night above and tell me that after I went to sleep my boyfriend (now my H, sad I know), tried to cheat on me with my friend, the one who had something to tell me when shopping. 

A part of me wishes it would of stayed at I don't want to know. Another part of me is happy that I was told. 

I am currently in a situation where I am having an affair. I have not told and I have not decided if I am going to. It sounds awful, I know. I try to ask myself if I would want to know. Sometimes I think what I don't know, don't hurt. But other times I think that is a cowardly way out.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

John Lee said:


> This is water under the bridge for me, but years ago I had an EA. When I realized I needed to end it, I told my wife about it. A close family member of mine who I told about the situation thought I had done the wrong thing, that I should have never told -- she even said it was "selfish" of me to tell her, and that I was just hurting her. But for me it seemed like the necessary thing to do to make a complete break in the EA and to restore a sense of honesty and trust between me and my spouse. Of course the OW also tried to convince me I did the wrong thing by telling (when I gave her the "it's over" talk), but I can hardly trust her motives on that.
> 
> Anyway, I just wonder what people think about this -- better to tell or not?


Your close family member is wrong. You are right. I did the same as you. Outed myself.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> An EA is a strange thing -- on one hand, you're preventing yourself from crossing a certain line, and that says something I think -- that some part of you still wants to be loyal and do the right thing and something is holding you back from having a PA. On the other hand, the level of deception and self-deception can be extreme in an EA, because you convince yourself that it's just a "friendship," or that, when it gets beyond that, you can just "step back" a level so it becomes a friendship again. I convinced myself a lot of ridiculous things and concealed a lot from my wife because the fact that we weren't "actually doing anything" made it seem ok in my mind. But of course it wasn't.


Okay, one last question, because you're like the Rosetta Stone for me - through you, I am gaining understanding of my H's behavior!
How did you reconcile coming home to your wife, being loving and seemingly happy ( I assume ) with keeping your friendship and so many of your feelings around this EA concealed from her?

So how did you do it, without feeling like a louse? How long did it last? We're you feeling like you might cross that line and is that what made you call it quits? 
Or... We're you just getting tired of her and starting to see/ feel you were being manipulated? 

My H's EA lived 3.000 miles away. Old school friend found him on FB. I often wonder what would have happened if she lived near by. that's a tough one for me...

Oh, I see I have asked more than one question ... Apologies!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Okay, one last question, because you're like the Rosetta Stone for me - through you, I am gaining understanding of my H's behavior!
> How did you reconcile coming home to your wife, being loving and seemingly happy ( I assume ) with keeping your friendship and so many of your feelings around this EA concealed from her?
> 
> So how did you do it, without feeling like a louse? How long did it last? We're you feeling like you might cross that line and is that what made you call it quits?
> ...


Well, as to the first question -- I didn't keep my "friendship" concealed, just the fact that it had become an EA. My wife met the woman a number of times. I would even say that at first it seemed like we were all friends. And as to how I could avoid feeling like a louse -- well I did sometimes, but I also was in a lot of denial. And I also went through rationalizations like "well I need an outlet because my wife isn't giving me enough attention, and she's so difficult, and that's all this is anyway, just an outlet." I don't think I exactly pretended to be happy during this time -- there was tension between me and my wife. There were also times when she suspected something before I came clean, for example once I told her I was getting a drink with the woman, and she said it was ok, but when I came back only 30 minutes later than I said I would, I found the door chained. Nothing had "happened," and yet my wife's intuition told her that the situation was not ok. 

As to what made me want to call it quits -- it's a combination of those things. But it was really the moment that the opportunity was staring me right in the face that was the turning point -- I was in her apartment, we had dinner, we drank a glass of wine, and she sitting there on the couch and suddenly it was like "Wait a minute, I can't pretend to myself that I'm not having an affair anymore. It's so obvious what this is." And then she actually told me that we only had so much time before her husband would be home. And that was it -- I didn't run out screaming or anything, I just said I couldn't do it, ran out the clock, so to speak, and left. I don't think I told my wife immediately after that, but it wasn't much longer after that -- it was the beginning of the end. And after that moment, I did also start to feel angrier at her for continuing to push things even when I told her "I don't want this to become an affair." But I pushed things too, I was just less clear-headed and deliberate about it than she was.

I wasn't "tired of her" though. I don't know if this makes it better or worse, but I really did enjoy her company and feel close to her, even at the end. I never 100% wanted to give up all contact with her, I just had to. Now I don't miss her at all, but it took time. I'm not like the cheater in the troll thread who said "Oh, the ******* won't leave his wife for me -- guess I'll go back to my husband and give him another chance." I did form a real connection with the OW, even though I don't think I would want to be married to her. 

Ending it wasn't easy -- we were in a grad program together, and I couldn't just leave the program. We shared a lot of friends (none of whom knew, I don't think), and I had to basically pretend like nothing had happened, being as polite and civil but cold and standoffish as I could. I lost most of my school friends because I couldn't keep up relationships with them while also avoiding her. I felt like a ghost for my last year of school. That was part of the price I realized I had to pay for what I did.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> Well, as to the first question -- I didn't keep my "friendship" concealed, just the fact that it had become an EA. My wife met the woman a number of times. I would even say that at first it seemed like we were all friends. And as to how I could avoid feeling like a louse -- well I did sometimes, but I also was in a lot of denial. And I also went through rationalizations like "well I need an outlet because my wife isn't giving me enough attention, and she's so difficult, and that's all this is anyway, just an outlet." I don't think I exactly pretended to be happy during this time -- there was tension between me and my wife. There were also times when she suspected something before I came clean, for example once I told her I was getting a drink with the woman, and she said it was ok, but when I came back only 30 minutes later than I said I would, I found the door chained. Nothing had "happened," and yet my wife's intuition told her that the situation was not ok.
> 
> As to what made me want to call it quits -- it's a combination of those things. But it was really the moment that the opportunity was staring me right in the face that was the turning point -- I was in her apartment, we had dinner, we drank a glass of wine, and she sitting there on the couch and suddenly it was like "Wait a minute, I can't pretend to myself that I'm not having an affair anymore. It's so obvious what this is." And then she actually told me that we only had so much time before her husband would be home. And that was it -- I didn't run out screaming or anything, I just said I couldn't do it, ran out the clock, so to speak, and left. I don't think I told my wife immediately after that, but it wasn't much longer after that -- it was the beginning of the end. And after that moment, I did also start to feel angrier at her for continuing to push things even when I told her "I don't want this to become an affair." But I pushed things too, I was just less clear-headed and deliberate about it than she was.
> 
> ...


Well, I think you handled everything extremely well, and you're very honest which is refreshing. Thank you for sharing your story. I feel like I finally understand what happened with my H. And I feel as close to total forgiveness than I ever have in these last two years. The way you explained it makes it seem so... human.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

brokenhearted2 said:


> Well, I think you handled everything extremely well, and you're very honest which is refreshing. Thank you for sharing your story. I feel like I finally understand what happened with my H. And I feel as close to total forgiveness than I ever have in these last two years. The way you explained it makes it seem so... human.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that's nice of you to say. Truth be told I handled everything extremely poorly for a long time before I started to handle it well, so I don't think I deserve too much credit -- for example, as I mentioned above, even after I came clean it took me time to stop responding to her contacts. There was the "meet for coffee" incident, etc. 

Glad you find it helpful. You know your husband better than anyone else probably. You know better if he's overall a man with the potential of being good and loyal or not. I do think most people are capable of doing the wrong thing at least sometimes, but the question now is whether he can take full responsibility for doing the wrong thing and take steps to make sure he doesn't wind up in the same place again.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I mean, it's really my wife who made sure I snapped out of it completely, who made sure the relationship didn't get rekindled at all by me carelessly thinking "oh no big deal if I just catch up with her."


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

And thanks for listening, too. I've never really laid all this out in writing before. I feel like I understand the whole episode better now too.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> And thanks for listening, too. I've never really laid all this out in writing before. I feel like I understand the whole episode better now too.


Yes, I have found it so eye opening. I've been in MC on and off with my H since the discovery of his EA in Dec. 2011 and I honestly feel like your post has helped me progress to a new level of understanding, where as in MC i just felt like we went round and round. 
I made us both crazy, asking, "why? Why? " non stop. 
I hated hearing him say he enjoyed the friendship, and yet, when you wrote the same thing, I "got" it. 
So many similarities, except he never met up with her. But they emailed and texted daily for 2.5 years before I found out.

If he had come to me and told me like you did with your wife, I do think I would have handled it much better. Since I discovered it, I always had to wonder if he would have stopped on his own. He told me he was slowly backing away from the constant communication which I could see from the phone records. 
Like your situation, she was in an unhappy marriage and hinted that she'd "rearrange" her life for him. She had a lot more intent on going for a PA. 
I do believe my H. I do think he is aware of boundaries now and I am starting to trust again. But it came at a high price- just last week I was convinced we could move forward but I told him I no longer had much invested in the marriage- 

He also paid a price like you mentioned, he lost a person that he grew up with, who should have just been a friend, and he lost the whole group of old friends that were connected to her for the same reasons you explained. And he's off FB, which he really enjoyed... And he proceeds cautiously around all women now because he's aware of the potential for things to get out of hand, where as before, neither of us gave it much thought. 
Well, good night! It's been a lot to process and I haven't felt such clarity in so long. Wow. Thanks again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

John Lee said:


> Then eventually she started more and more dropping hints about us being together, about leaving her spouse, about being together -- it was always sly and indirect, but it would keep showing up in our conversations, and I started to feel weird about it, but at the same time I couldn't stop seeing her. Once she made a bizarre suggestion that "if we just go away together for a weekend, it will probably help us end this whole thing." Like as though a weekend of passion would douse the flame or something. And of course I said I couldn't do that. But I didn't realize just how dishonest a suggestion it was. *It might sound twisted, but at times I was even under this illusion that I owed HER something, like I had another girlfriend or wife to please. I even felt guilty toward the OW, which seems really absurd now.* She tried to use this against me too, for example once after we ended things and I ran into her, she started telling me about how her divorce was going, and that she was "afraid no one else would marry her" or something. It was only then that I saw she had been trying to manipulate my emotions all along.


This has happened to me in a couple of situations. With both my fiancé and my exH, they feel some sort of obligation to other people and in conflict with me, even though I am the one dedicating my life to them.

I have also encountered this with my parents and older sister who, when they get a chance to know the guy I am dating, they want to be their advocate when ever I have an argument or otherwise I have a conflict with.

the only way that I can explain it is with the concept of triangulation. something I found explained in Robert Greene books (ie the Art of Seduction; 48 Laws of Power.) that is, needlessly pitting two people against one another. It shows, IMO, a need for drama, even if subconsciously which is just as bad as consciously looking for drama.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Hey, John Lee: Your story is very well expressed, and is a blueprint for how EA's happen (and how the WS can do the right thing at the right time to end it). One question, if you don't mind: Did you know your AP's husband? How did he figure into your thoughts about the EA as it developed, if at all? Thanks.


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## Writer (Aug 3, 2012)

You're right; your relative is wrong. I believe that you should always tell your partner about an EA and, of course, a PA. Just as someone chooses to cheat, it will allow the BS the chance to decide if they want to R, separate, or divorce.

When I started to spend more time with the OM, feeling guilty when I spent any time with my husband, and I realised how selfish I was being, I sat my husband down. Across the table, I told him about the EA, gave him all the evidence, a "no contact letter" that I sent to the OM, and threw myself to his mercy. I didn't know that he was having his own EA with someone I called my friend at the time. It took him two years, after he established no contact with her, to tell me. I would have rather known about it two years earlier.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

abc

You showed your BS the ultimate disrespect by having the EA. . . 

. . . and the ultimate respect by confessing. 

Almost all EA/PA are discovered. Confessions are rare.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

I think mostly the betrayed have some level of gut feeling that something is off. It would be so much better if more waywards could truly appreciate that their spouse could (eventually) have a lot more respect for them if they owned up. 

A much better chance of a wayward being understood and/or forgiven. A hugely better chance of a happier outcome/ reconciliation. 

Being the last to know/finding out must be the worse thing ever. Surely it's never to late to face the music and have an opportunity to honestly heal, although of course it won't be easy. 



OP - you did wrong but I have respect for you in that you owned up and faced the music. You saved your wife the continued torture of wondering if her gut feelings were correct, or not. By best to both you and your wife/family.


A few questions if I may. 
The build up to actually initiating a conversation with your wife about the EA must have been very hard. Did you find you kept putting it off?

Is there anything a BS can do to make it easier for a WS to start and continue such a conversion? 

Can you explain in any detail how you actually went about telling your W about your EA and her initial reaction and if at any point thereafter (aside from your mother's opinion) you regretted telling her (even if only fleetingly).


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

the OP also saved his wife from the pain of hearing anything from the OW first.

thankfully with my fiancé, I learned from the details that he shared about our sex life with his EA among other things. 

I pointed out to him that she had actually signed up for a meetup activity that I attended. In other words, the probability that we could cross paths was very great and the prospect of some stranger (to me) cornering me with intimate knowledge about me was very real.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Thank you for your great post John Lee. Your recap of your EA is perfect, it fits my own WH's experience exactly, actually almost exactly. 

I see on TAM that many posters seem to think that everything is a PA, and that people are just rug sweeping the truth when they think it is an EA. 

The truth is that many many affairs never go physical and they are just as difficult to get over for the WS and for the BS.

Affairs need to meet the WS's needs. Any moment a spouse chooses to get any of their intimate needs met by somebody outside the marriage, then it has become an affair.


In an affair, needs are being met, it is just that different people have different needs, some need a PA, and others really need an EA for their own personal reasons.

Both are addictive and hard to stop. The EA is more easily justified since most people assume sex should be the deal breaker. 

Some people can learn from their mistakes and some can't or don't want to. Some marriages need to end in divorce and some need to reconcile. 

If couples want to reconcile, they must know that it will take time, as the real rug sweeper is the one who thinks that by demanding the WS to just stop the affair cold turkey with 'NC' means it is over. After NC has been established, the WS will continue to think about the AP for quite sometime. Over time the WS will think less and less of the AP, but it takes time and nothing can change that.

Thank you for sharing your story.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Philat said:


> Hey, John Lee: Your story is very well expressed, and is a blueprint for how EA's happen (and how the WS can do the right thing at the right time to end it). One question, if you don't mind: Did you know your AP's husband? How did he figure into your thoughts about the EA as it developed, if at all? Thanks.


I did know him -- as I mentioned in another post, we all hung out together at least a few times, we were at parties at each others homes, etc. In fact, this may shock some people, but we were at their wedding. Their marriage was kind of doomed from the start, and that was obvious to a lot of people who knew them. I actually liked him in certain ways -- I had some things in common with him and I certainly didn't have any ill will toward him, but I wasn't exactly placing his feelings very high either. I was aware that he knew I spent a lot of time with his wife and I knew (through her) that he wasn't totally comfortable with it. I guess if she knew that and it didn't stop her, it certainly wasn't going to stop me. 

When I got distance on the situation, it seemed to me that they were two people with no real willingness to commit to each other in any way.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Advocado said:


> A few questions if I may.
> The build up to actually initiating a conversation with your wife about the EA must have been very hard. Did you find you kept putting it off?
> 
> Is there anything a BS can do to make it easier for a WS to start and continue such a conversion?
> ...


I believe I had had "the talk" with the OW -- this has to end, no more spending time together, etc., and then within a week or so after that I was talking with my wife, and I think we were talking about who to invite to a party or something like that, and my wife asked if the OW should be on the list, and I said "no." And she said "did something happen?" and I said "sit down, I need to tell you something" and then I told her the whole story. It just happened that way - before that moment I don't know if I had a clear plan about whether or not to tell, when to tell, etc., I just had an instantaneous moment when I realized "I have to come clean now, I'm not going to make up a lie to cover this up."

I had moments of regret about telling, but not because I wanted to keep the EA going any longer, only because I wondered if I had done the right thing by telling. I don't remember ever regretting ending the EA -- I knew it had to be done, even though I felt a sense of loss from no longer seeing the OW.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

What was her reaction after you told her? Was she shocked?


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

John Lee said:


> I believe I had had "the talk" with the OW -- this has to end, no more spending time together, etc., and then within a week or so after that I was talking with my wife, and I think we were talking about who to invite to a party or something like that, and my wife asked if the OW should be on the list, and I said "no." And she said "did something happen?" and I said "sit down, I need to tell you something" and then I told her the whole story. It just happened that way - before that moment I don't know if I had a clear plan about whether or not to tell, when to tell, etc., I just had an instantaneous moment when I realized "I have to come clean now, I'm not going to make up a lie to cover this up."
> 
> I had moments of regret about telling, but not because I wanted to keep the EA going any longer, only because I wondered if I had done the right thing by telling. I don't remember ever regretting ending the EA -- I knew it had to be done, even though I felt a sense of loss from no longer seeing the OW.


Did you ever feel like your EA was about to turn into a PA?


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## Mrsmartian (Aug 21, 2013)

John Lee, your post has made me feel a thousand times better about what happened in my life, this past summer. Well...actually it was years and years my WH was doing this kind of thing for. I just didn't know.
Anyway,

It doesn't fix anything. He hasn't stopped. He hasn't become better in my eyes. I just feel much less kicked in the face about everything.

I'm glad your story can be water under the bridge for your marriage. Rather than the very thing that drowned it.

I can see that everyone has very similar questions to mine. So I shall keep checking occasionally to learn a bit more.

Thanks.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

John Lee said:


> Ugh, actually the more I think about this, the more it makes sense. The relative is my mom. This fits so much with everything I've come to understand about her.


My parents are the type that would tell you to put up with even a physical abuser as long as you are not a "divorcee". Now that would be very bad


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> I believe I had had "the talk" with the OW -- this has to end, no more spending time together, etc., and then within a week or so after that I was talking with my wife, and I think we were talking about who to invite to a party or something like that, and my wife asked if the OW should be on the list, and I said "no." And she said "did something happen?" and I said "sit down, I need to tell you something" and then I told her the whole story. It just happened that way - before that moment I don't know if I had a clear plan about whether or not to tell, when to tell, etc., I just had an instantaneous moment when I realized "I have to come clean now, I'm not going to make up a lie to cover this up."
> 
> I had moments of regret about telling, but not because I wanted to keep the EA going any longer, only because I wondered if I had done the right thing by telling. I don't remember ever regretting ending the EA -- I knew it had to be done, even though I felt a sense of loss from no longer seeing the OW.


Hi John Lee... I have just been reading responses to your post, and wanted to write again to say that it has had a tremendous effect on my understanding and coping with my H's EA. 

I wonder if your wife was able to (after the initial shock) feel really good that even though the OW offered it up on a silver platter ( ugh, have to interject here... Hate home-wreckers!) and that even under the influence of wine... You turned it down. That says a lot about you. I hope your W could feel some sense of satisfaction over that. 

I've been thinking those thoughts this morning for myself, because I have been able to move past the hurt and now I've landed in this place where I am able to say, " Hey!! She (OW) begged my H to meet her numerous times, let him know she was available, then after being turned down, she planned to fly 3,000 miles to our hometown. Again he declined (and started his back pedaling)
So finally, I'm able to feel satisfaction in that it was offered... And declined. 

I wasn't able to see that for two years. But I am going to focus on it for a while. It feels good. 

The only thing that would have felt better was if he had sat me down and said, "I've got something to tell you..."

So, ya did good.
BH2
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

BREATHE31 said:


> This reminds me of a time in my teens when my boyfriend and I had a few friends over. I was pregnant at the time so I was not drinking with everyone and I was tired. I went to sleep. One of my girlfriends decided to stay and wanted to stay up and keep drinking. The next morning we all got up and the day went on like normal. About two weeks later my friend and I went shopping. When eating lunch she said, " I have something to tell you." It did not sound good. I asked her "Is this going to ruin my day?" She said "yes, probably." I said, " I don't want to know."
> 
> About a month passed and I had forgotten about it, when another friend of mine called and said, "I HAVE to tell you something." She preceded to refer to the night above and tell me that after I went to sleep my boyfriend (now my H, sad I know), tried to cheat on me with my friend, the one who had something to tell me when shopping.
> 
> ...


Do you need to start a thread about this? It might help you sort out what you are doing and what you should be doing.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

John Lee said:


> I believe I had had "the talk" with the OW -- this has to end, no more spending time together, etc., and then within a week or so after that* I was talking with my wife, and I think we were talking about who to invite to a party or something like that, and my wife asked if the OW should be on the list, and I said "no." And she said "did something happen?" and I said "sit down, I need to tell you something" and then I told her the whole story. It just happened that way - before that moment I don't know if I had a clear plan about whether or not to tell, when to tell, etc., I just had an instantaneous moment when I realized "I have to come clean now, I'm not going to make up a lie to cover this up."*
> 
> I had moments of regret about telling, but not because I wanted to keep the EA going any longer, only because I wondered if I had done the right thing by telling. I don't remember ever regretting ending the EA -- I knew it had to be done, even though I felt a sense of loss from no longer seeing the OW.




Thanks John Lee

Wow - so it wasn't that guilt was eating you up and consuming your every thought compelling you to tell! Still great that you had a conscience and took that opportunity to give your wife the honesty she deserved. You gave her the choice to stay or go based on honesty.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Do you need to start a thread about this? It might help you sort out what you are doing and what you should be doing.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/133786-after-you-choose.html


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

So a weird update -- the OW e-mailed me. Prior to that I think the last time I had seen her was maybe six months ago (at a friend's gathering, with my wife there), and before that I think she had e-mailed me maybe once about a year ago. Of course I told my wife about this (and the last time it happened as well). The OW said she is engaged now, and that things are going well. I almost wanted to say "well I hope you're not e-mailing me because you secretly want to screw things up for yourself." Seemed like it would fit her pattern. But I just gave a short, polite reply, congratulating her and telling her a couple things about my life. No subsequent response. I think she probably hopes I'm going to say "hey, let's be friends, let's get together" but that's not gonna happen.


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

Absolutely not. I am a guy, and do you think it would be productive if I told my wife every time I saw some nice a** walking down the street that made my thing move? Same thing here, in my opinion. I've never really understood what an EA is anyway, I have emotions for many females that are not my wife, but that doesn't mean I'd take the leap to f*ck them. I tend to think this was a passive aggressive move to tell your wife "see, I am a desirable male who could leave you in a heartbeat if you don't shape up".


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

John Lee said:


> So a weird update -- the OW e-mailed me. Prior to that I think the last time I had seen her was maybe six months ago (at a friend's gathering, with my wife there), and before that I think she had e-mailed me maybe once about a year ago. Of course I told my wife about this (and the last time it happened as well). The OW said she is engaged now, and that things are going well. I almost wanted to say "well I hope you're not e-mailing me because you secretly want to screw things up for yourself." Seemed like it would fit her pattern. But I just gave a short, polite reply, congratulating her and telling her a couple things about my life. No subsequent response. I think she probably hopes I'm going to say "hey, let's be friends, let's get together" but that's not gonna happen.


Wow. I imagine your wife was not thrilled to hear that! 

I think OW was: wanting to let you know she has moved on. Or,
Wanted to let you know someone else DID want to marry her, since she had told you previously," no one will ever want to marry me..." Or words to that effect
Or, she was fishing, and used the engagement as a safe way to contact you.

Personally, I don't know if you should have responded at all - given your history I would be afraid it would be like an alcoholic who has been sober for a long time just having a sip of wine...
Although its clear youre totally devoted to your marriage now. 

Maybe just a "Great news! " reply would have been adequate, but I wouldn't have told her anything about your life...

The OW could easily take that as a green light. What will you do if she contacts you again? 
How did your wife react to seeing her at the friends party.

I'm lucky? That my H''s EA lives 3.000 miles away. If I had to run into her at a party, I don't know what I'd do/feel. Probably just awful. 
Anyway, good luck! I hope she really is just wanting you to know she's moved on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Yeah my wife handled it ok but definitely did not like to have the old memories stirred up. Perhaps I shouldn't have replied at all. I feel like a short, polite reply is kind of a defuser, and maybe a way of saying "ok thx bye now." Maybe I said a little too much. Anyway, she didn't write back so no harm done.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Great thread. Your history shows that a normal intelligent decent person can slide into an affair without starting out a relationship with bad intentions.

At some point if you had kissed OW it might have catapulted you into a PA, don't you think?

Should a WS always tell? If the BS was struggling with news of cancer, job loss or death in family, I would consider waiting. And waiting might end up meaning never. However, as general policy honesty is good. 

Can a cheater with a secret become a better person? Can the guilt, shame and remorse spark change without the light of day revealing the lies?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Great thread. Your history shows that a normal intelligent decent person can slide into an affair without starting out a relationship with bad intentions.
> 
> At some point if you had kissed OW it might have catapulted you into a PA, don't you think?
> 
> ...


yes, I think there are times when it is better for the WS to bear the burden.


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## onestepatatime (Oct 23, 2013)

My hubby also had an EA with his ex girlfriend from high school after she found him on facebook, and she too lives a long way away from us (similar story to Brokenhearted2). My husband told me and while it was painful and destroyed trust, I am so glad he told me. Our marriage, 1 year on is the strongest it has ever been. I respected him for being honest with me. I believe that even if one partner is carrying a secret, it somewhat taints the relationship anyway. It is something they have to live with and the relationship is somewhat of a lie. You absolutely did the right thing. It is best to lay it all out on the table and rebuild from there. 
We both believed we were happy before this happened but we did identify a couple of minor areas in our marriage we needed to work on. So some good did come out of it. 
Also, in regards to you answering the email from OW, I would not have been happy about it at all. Though, hubby has agreed to never contact her again, so that would be a major trust breaker for me. He also has her blocked on facebook.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

onestepatatime said:


> ... I believe that even if one partner is carrying a secret, it somewhat *taints the relationship* anyway. It is something they have to live with and the relationship is somewhat of a lie.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Working1 said:


> yes, I think there are times when it is better for the WS to bear the burden.


Can you give some examples?


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Working1 said:


> yes, I think there are times when it is better for the WS to bear the burden.


Disagree, because over time this burden will become increasingly unbearable, will require more lying, and will hinder the WS's ability to contribute to an honest and open relationship.

IMO, if the passage of time actually decreases guilt and makes it easier for the WS to keep the secret, then the WS will be more likely to repeat the betrayal.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Funny thing about burdens. It must depend on the person because it was no problem at all for my xw to carry the burden. In fact, I do not believe she would have ever told me squat and her burden factor was zero.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

John Lee said:


> This is water under the bridge for me, but years ago I had an EA. When I realized I needed to end it, I told my wife about it. A close family member of mine who I told about the situation thought I had done the wrong thing, that I should have never told -- she even said it was "selfish" of me to tell her, and that I was just hurting her. But for me it seemed like the necessary thing to do to make a complete break in the EA and to restore a sense of honesty and trust between me and my spouse. Of course the OW also tried to convince me I did the wrong thing by telling (when I gave her the "it's over" talk), but I can hardly trust her motives on that.
> 
> Anyway, I just wonder what people think about this -- better to tell or not?



Did telling her bring her more happiness in the marriage or sadness? 

What about family or friends did it make the bond between you and them better?

If the answer is NO then you shouldn't have said a thing. Principle vs Reality and the reality more often than not is you should just squash it, zip it, move on, and focus on being the best spouse you can be.

I think EA's are stupid and no different than a guy who is addicted to video games and plays all day, gambling, or any other destructive behavior.

Just because it happened to someone on the end of a computer doesn't make it any different. Because it is all made up in your head it's not real regardless of how much you think it is. They have people that are duped all the time with "online gf/bf" that turn out to be people just playing games with them ultimately asking for money or help and may not even be the sex they say they are.

Of course normally that isn't the case. Usually it's a ex highschool flame, college sweetheart, or whatever, but still usually a made up concoction in the person's head, regardless of source.

Me personally I would not want to know nor would I say a thing. Just move on, cut ties, and refocus.


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

OhGeesh said:


> Did telling her bring her more happiness in the marriage or sadness?
> 
> What about family or friends did it make the bond between you and them better?
> 
> ...


So, you're saying if it didn't make things instantly better he shouldn't have said anything? obviously telling the truth is going to cause problems, because a problem exists for an EA to happen in the first place. You need to expose it to get to the root and deal with it instead of pretending it didn't happen and hope it gets better.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

John Lee said:


> This is water under the bridge for me, but years ago I had an EA. When I realized I needed to end it, I told my wife about it. A close family member of mine who I told about the situation thought I had done the wrong thing, that I should have never told -- she even said it was "selfish" of me to tell her, and that I was just hurting her. But for me it seemed like the necessary thing to do to make a complete break in the EA and to restore a sense of honesty and trust between me and my spouse. Of course the OW also tried to convince me I did the wrong thing by telling (when I gave her the "it's over" talk), but I can hardly trust her motives on that.
> 
> Anyway, I just wonder what people think about this -- better to tell or not?


This whole "don't tell if you can fix yourself" is bogus.

Here are my arm chair psychologist reasons why telling is important. These are for if you're trying to save the marriage. (I think you should tell if the marriage is ending as well, but that's a different list)

1. We're adults who are set in our ways. If we have a problem, it usually takes something substantial for us to be able to change, and we usually need support. By telling your spouse, you're making the situation important enough to force change and, in a way, giving yourself a support person in your spouse.

2. Things were a certain way in the marriage which prompted you to cheat, without exposing, your spouses side of the marriage won't change. Only through exposure can you put everything on the table in the marriage to fix it.

By not exposing, your ignoring and hiding. Infidelity is a cancer to a marriage. It lies there under the surface and slowly destroys and kills the marriage from the inside. Just like you wouldn't hide and ignore a cancer diagnosis (it's not going to cure itself) you shouldn't do it with infidelity.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Can you give some examples?


I have a very old and close friend, she was younger when this happened, she was physical, no actual sex, with a married guy, somebody we both know, one night when they were out with friends and they were drinking a bit, not drunk and after everybody went home. He was so embarrassed the next day, he didn't know what to say as was she. They were both so ashamed and regretful of their actions, it took them about a year before they could even say hi to each other again when they bumped into each other at events in our circles, and since then they are polite but have never spoken about it again. Their regretfulness on both sides was authentic and I have never seen or heard of either of them doing anything of this nature again and it has been 20 years. It was a one time mistake and they both learned something from it. He is happily married and a good friend to many people. SHe never married, but has a boyfriend who she is happy with. I am the only person who knows outside of them, and would not see the point of telling anyone. I have never seen either of them drunk or even tipsy in the 20 years since this happened. I think it was a lesson learned in their early twenties for both of them.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

I have another friend, 15 years, she drank too much regularly. Her boyfriend, now husband said one morning, why do you do that, you always drink too much and embarrass yourself? She looked at him,(they had spent the night at our house since they drank and couldn't drive), she looked at him and never got drunk again. It has been 15 years.
She was just out of college, and was used to partying. She would sometimes drink too much and throw up, say things that she regretted to others and such. 
Some people can change the behavior in a blink of an eye. Others can not. If you can't, then that is why meetings and therapy work so well for many, and when you need that kind of support to change, you need to tell your partner. 

Of course there are a whole other group of people that simply don't want to change, they are not ready to make that step in their lives and they are habitual, dysfunctional and compulsive. I am guessing that these people have overall issues with intimacy in their lives not just with their partners.

Just what I have seen in my life.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Working1, it is not just about whether someone can stop bad behaviour. It is also about openness and trust. If those things are unimportant, why do we have relationships in the firat place?


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Working1, it is not just about whether someone can stop bad behaviour. It is also about openness and trust. If those things are unimportant, why do we have relationships in the firat place?


I understand, and of course trust is so important. Ideally nobody cheats, but i think in certain circumstances, it is ok to not put everyone through the awful misery. I think if somebody is involved in an ongoing affair, or ongoing one night stands, totally different. Tell everybody and demand NC, expose and all the rest. If kids are involved try to repair the marriage, otherwise seriously consider divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Working1, it is not just about whether someone can stop bad behaviour. It is also about openness and trust. If those things are unimportant, why do we have relationships in the firat place?


I can't stand sneaky cheating people. Selfish and manipulative. I think the question was should you tell or not, and I do think there are good people out there that make mistakes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PappyJack (Nov 1, 2013)

Working1 said:


> I can't stand sneaky cheating people. Selfish and manipulative. I think the question was should you tell or not, and I do think there are good people out there that make mistakes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Um, yes. 
And you can tell they're good people because they come clean about it, face the consequences and either move on, or fix the problem or themselves.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Working1 said:


> I can't stand sneaky cheating people. Selfish and manipulative. I think the question was should you tell or not, and I do think there are good people out there that make mistakes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree there are good people who make mistakes. Married to one. She tried to withhold details of her mistake to hose things down, all it did was create enormous trust issues when she got caught. 23 years later, the affair is long ago but the trust issues remain. Probably always will.

Selfish and manipulative. Isn't that a fair description of someone who cheats, then because they want the relationship (selfish) they withhold information, denying their partner the right to make relationship decisions based on the full facts (manipulative)?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Working1 said:


> I understand, and of course trust is so important. Ideally nobody cheats, but i think in certain circumstances, it is ok to not put everyone through the awful misery. I think if somebody is involved in an ongoing affair, or ongoing one night stands, totally different. Tell everybody and demand NC, expose and all the rest. If kids are involved try to repair the marriage, otherwise seriously consider divorce.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mmm however your examples are all with 'young' 'youngish' people teens twenties. People who we are all aware and to a large extent accept they are on the first rungs, emotionally, of life

Lets say those people you speak of were each of them 36 and married with two or three kids each which is often a scenario with cheats.

What would you have done about that then? Would you have held your tongue in those situations?


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Mmm however your examples are all with 'young' 'youngish' people teens twenties. People who we are all aware and to a large extent accept they are on the first rungs, emotionally, of life
> 
> Lets say those people you speak of were each of them 36 and married with two or three kids each which is often a scenario with cheats.
> 
> What would you have done about that then? Would you have held your tongue in those situations?


Good point, my examples definitely seem show that I make room for young and inexperienced people to learn from their mistakes…


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Working1 said:


> Good point, my examples definitely seem show that I make room for young and inexperienced people to learn from their mistakes…


If you teach them to solve their problems by lying, what are they learning?

I can point you to a number of threads here where people did that, and it can out later (for various reasons..including that sometimes the person who made the mistake cannot live the guilt of deception) and all sorts of problems ensued.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Wazza said:


> If you teach them to solve their problems by lying, what are they learning?
> 
> I can point you to a number of threads here where people did that, and it can out later (for various reasons..including that sometimes the person who made the mistake cannot live the guilt of deception) and all sorts of problems ensued.


I agree with you, you can't let people get away with lying to you, wether it si personal or otherwise. It can be a sticky situation, such as a situation where a client tells you they aren't sending you their contracts anymore because they don't have the work, when in reality they don't and will not say that while they loved working with, you are dated and no longer have an edge etc. and we are ending or working relationship. Clients will not tell you that in case they want to come back later. You can apply this to interpersonal and professional relationships. Sometimes good people will lie, and sometimes they know they need to come clean.

But if you are in an relationship with somebody with issues it is going to always be a rough ride. If you are in a relationship with somebody who is emotionally healthy then a mistake can be overcome, sometimes without mention.

I want to add that usually people of emotional immaturity end up with people that fit them.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

What is KISA?


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## Oldrandwisr (Jun 22, 2013)

Advocado said:


> What is KISA?


Knight In Shining Armour


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