# Is it over?



## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

hello everyone.
what a fantastic website this is, so glad i found it.

i am in a massive dilemma at the minute and will give you a very brief synopsis so i dont bore you.

Me and my partner have been together 19 years and spent the first 15 years knowing we couldnt have kids as my partner had fallopian tube problems.
i accepted this and stayed despite my fathering urges.
however 5 years ago my partner started paid ivf treatment and successfully gave birth to our daughter .
during the 9 months of pregnancy we abstained from sexual activitys , due to risks. absolutley nothing was given.
After she was born the abstinence stopped for 3 months as the doctors said that after pregnancy she was liable
to concieve again to . which was her catalyst (kids).

Then 6 months after the birth of our daughter she went straight back into ivf upon agreement that there would not be a sex/affection ban during this course as it had taken its toll on us with no contact.
The abstinence continued throughout this pregnancy ( which ended prematurely and badly twins came early at 26 weeks and didnt survive.
as u can imagine there were hard times after that and it took months before we even tried any sexual contact).
sex then was once a month at best and was a chore for her.
Then she decided to try ivf again upon agreement that she would look after us in the bedroom to keep us connected.

we had sex i think 2 times in that pregnancy maximum.
and since our new daughter was born 12 months ago i bet you could count on 2 hands how many times we have had sex or contact.
in the last pregnancy i got myself into trouble by texting twice yes just twice a female off a forum .i know i was wrong to do it but the frustration levels in me were running at way above my suggested levels.

my partner was in bed at 9pm with our daughter who at nearly 4yrs old is still in our bed.

THE LAST 3 TIMES WE HAVE HAD SEX SHE HAS JUST LAY THERE AND NOT PARTICIPATED. more of a get it over with position.

i have constantly over the years tried to talk to her and explain that how can we be a couple if there is no connection/sexual contact and her reply is always that i am sex mad and cant try and make her something she is not?????????

last week she said she had had enough and wanted out , as we dont get on and its not fair on kids.
i asked to talk about it and she went to bed...
next morning she says she is going away to our caravan for a break with kids and i wasnt invited as she needs a break.

ive phoned her today and text her to phone me so i can talk my daughter she phoned an hour later passed phone to my daughter 4 to spk to me and didnt want to talk to me.

she is 90% time a stay at home ( self employed but employs so she doesnt have to go)
i am self employed and currently growing a decent sized business so my times at home and not in office are small.

i really think its over , is there anything i could do to get us back on track or am i flogging a dead horse.


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

100 views and no opinions?

i know its a bit different but would really really appreciate some help


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## ItMatters (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm just trying to figure out how many times you are going to set a boundary and let her just walk all over it.

You told her during preg #2 there would be no abstinence ban yet there was (terrribly sorry for your loss though- how devastating).

Preg #3 you again had the abstinence ban despite her agreeing to NOT do that.

And now in the last year you have had sex less than 10x and the last 3x she lay there like a limp rag?

Why did you keep having kids? Do you love her or just want to have regular sex because you made no mention of love.

I'm guessing that if all my spouse wanted to do was bang me, I wouldn't be too interested in reciprocating either.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So...she's stressed and going through IVF, and STRESSING through pregnancies that something will go wrong, and then lost 2 children to premature birth...and had MORE IVF treatments and stress with pregnancy, but this time the stress was WAY MORE because of the death of the twins.

And you want her to have sex.

Ok, well, I guess you could ignore her feelings and stuff, but it won't get you very far. Maybe talk to her --- not in a demanding/ultimatum way, but a way to help her understand that you desire her, etc.

And perhaps she's a bit upset about the death of the twins. Have you two talked about that!?


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

ItMatters said:


> I'm just trying to figure out how many times you are going to set a boundary and let her just walk all over it.
> 
> You told her during preg #2 there would be no abstinence ban yet there was (terrribly sorry for your loss though- how devastating).
> 
> ...


After sitting there and listening to experts tell/crush her dreams it is hard not to say yes go for it after she has proved them wrong.
her dream was kids bigtime!!
i played the abstinence game as i thought once she had fulfilled her dreams she would appreciate the sacrifices i had made.
can u imagine all that time , nearly 5 yrs of really no intimacy ,contact ?

i wanted kids also so was eager but not totally comfortable with the abstinence idea, i agreed to the treatments because i love her and want her to be happy
however over time this has crushed us in reality.

she knows i love her and i tell her regularly this.

she has absolutely no sexual desires and has told me she could go months without even thinking about it ????

i even took up online massage courses to try and light that fire but she says its only so i can can get my way, and i can spend a good 20/30 mins on just massaging her trying to relight her fire.

when i massage her it works big time she really responds.
but the sad fact is that the opportunities are so infrequent that i am so frustrated i could scream and spend my time like a bear with a sore head and the world on his shoulders.

which only endeavours me more to grow my business so i know that i will be financially sound on my own ( problem right there).
we are at a point where we share a bed with our daughter (nearly 4 yrs old)
have no intimacy or real contact due to this and the demands of kids/business etc
she has no sexual appetite.
i am constantly asking what the problem is regards our relationship as there is no intimacy.

No intimacy = resentment and distance from me.
Resentmant from me and distance from me = no communication between us,

HERE I AM?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I assume, before children, sex was good the first 15 years. Things do for a woman, during the years of pregnancy and child birth. She really went through a lot more than most women. I don't know how you interacted during that period, but there was a lot of abstinence. Sounds like a big divide between what you both think where marriage should be. What work have you done to resolve this? Any counseling yet?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, the child in the bed is not my cup of tea. Our 3.5 year old likes to come snuggle in the morning, but that's it. Children aren't allowed in our room, really. That's OUR space. Sex and sleep. Not even a TV.

Perhaps talk to your wife about weening your daughter out of the bed. Start with a mat on the floor near your bed and then in the hallway, then in her own bedroom (if she throws fits). She's too old and it does hinder romance/intimacy.

Also, do y'all go on dates? WITHOUT children? That may help...you guys need to connect again. 

But, have you and she grieved the loss of the babies? That's such a traumatic thing to go through. If it was rugswept, then she could just be depressed, and using her children as a lifeboat.


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

that_girl said:


> So...she's stressed and going through IVF, and STRESSING through pregnancies that something will go wrong, and then lost 2 children to premature birth...and had MORE IVF treatments and stress with pregnancy, but this time the stress was WAY MORE because of the death of the twins.
> 
> And you want her to have sex.
> 
> ...


we have talked about the twins and got past that i think.

the birth of our newest daughter (12months old now)

is surely a blessing and we cannot dwell on what wasnt with the twins .
we cannot change what happened but hopefully deal with it.

you have to realise that it was not just her who lost them kids, i was also the one shielding her face and trying to cuff her ears from the nightmare that i witnessed and heard.
dont be so presumptuous that women only experience birth and its wonders/fate.

we as a couple have made massive sacrifices for our kids and are now paying the price we paid,


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

anchorwatch said:


> I assume, before children, sex was good the first 15 years. Things do for a woman, during the years of pregnancy and child birth. She really went through a lot more than most women. I don't know how you interacted during that period, but there was a lot of abstinence. Sounds like a big divide between what you both think where marriage should be. What work have you done to resolve this? Any counseling yet?


no counciling yet as i try my hardest to try and talk about things.

this time though we relly have hit a major point.
she said we dont get on and need to sort it/split but being from a one parent family i am really eager to try and work out our issues.

i would hate to emulate my parents split andf divide the family.


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Yea, the child in the bed is not my cup of tea. Our 3.5 year old likes to come snuggle in the morning, but that's it. Children aren't allowed in our room, really. That's OUR space. Sex and sleep. Not even a TV.
> 
> Perhaps talk to your wife about weening your daughter out of the bed. Start with a mat on the floor near your bed and then in the hallway, then in her own bedroom (if she throws fits). She's too old and it does hinder romance/intimacy.
> 
> ...


i really really think that she is using the kids as a lifeboat.

she is totally inseperable from them , to the point its sickening.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I didn't say you didn't experience it. So don't call me presumptuous. Thanks.

I asked if you GRIEVED it. Just 'getting past it' isn't grieving.

She could be holding on to guilt, grief, etc. Have you talked to her about it? Sure you can't "dwell" on the past, but it happens. A woman will beat herself up over these things forever if not dealt with the right way. I've seen it happen with friends who lost children and never grieved. They just moved on and had more children and thought it would make it better. It never did until they addressed it and their guilt. 

You're not paying any price for having children. We have two children (ages 13 and almost 4) and we have sex regularly.

Have you talked to your wife about this? Have you sat her down and told her what you've told us? What did she say? what were her reasons for not wanting sex?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

The window cleaner said:


> i really really think that she is using the kids as a lifeboat.
> 
> she is totally inseperable from them , to the point its sickening.


This can happen in life...but what is the disconnect from you?

There could be some deep demons in there that keep her from connecting to you. Maybe she resents you, maybe she resents herself. TALK to her.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

You might be caught in that vicious circle. Husband needs sex for emotional needs, wife needs emotional needs met to desire sex. Break the circle. Be the first one to make a move. Do you meet your wife's emotional needs? If the answer is I don't know then you probably don't. Try reading His Needs Her Needs. Make sure you are meeting her emotional needs consistently then try for sex. 

And do try counseling. They can help you find a healthy way of communicating.


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

didnt mean to sound defensive sorry
but as u can imagine i am on defensive mode!

she ays she is too tired, no sex drive , not intersted in the sex side.

we ha e spoken many times about the twins and i quite rightly agree that she is holding on/ getting over the twins by keeping our 4 yr old in our bed as a comfort blanket.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

To me, she sounds like she needs some therapy to work through some things.

Marriage therapy would help too.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

The window cleaner said:


> No intimacy = resentment and distance from me.
> Resentmant from me and distance from me = no communication between us,


No communication between both of you = No intimacy.

You just described the circle game. And it just goes round and round, till one of you breaks out of the same behaviors. I played that game too. It doesn't work out well. All it does is add more resentment toward each other. You both have been under a lot of stress and your behaviors are adding more to it. If it doesn't stop, the resentment will continue to build and kill the relationship.

I broke out of it. Changed my behaviors towards her. My wife followed after the changes I made lowered the stress levels. I used a book for my guide. "His Needs, Her Needs" by W. Harley. 

But I do think you'll need professional counseling also. You both have been through a lot.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Same here. I played the circle game myself. I realized it and broke the circle. It has helped a lot. Things are not perfect between us but they're getting better. I also read the book His Needs Her Needs. That' what opened my eyes.

I'm a woman so I broke the cycle by being more aggressive in sex where before there wasn't any sex. It took a while of me only meeting his needs before he started trying to meet my emotional needs. At least he's trying.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

_Me and my partner have been together 19 years and spent the first 15 years knowing we couldnt have kids as my partner had fallopian tube problems.
i accepted this and stayed despite my fathering urges.
however 5 years ago my partner started paid ivf treatment and successfully gave birth to our daughter .
during the 9 months of pregnancy we abstained from sexual activitys , due to risks. absolutley nothing was given.
After she was born the abstinence stopped for 3 months as the doctors said that after pregnancy she was liable
to concieve again to . which was her catalyst (kids).

Then 6 months after the birth of our daughter she went straight back into ivf upon agreement that there would not be a sex/affection ban during this course as it had taken its toll on us with no contact.
The abstinence continued throughout this pregnancy ( *which ended prematurely and badly twins came early at 26 weeks and didnt survive.*as u can imagine there were hard times after that and it took months before we even tried any sexual contact).
sex then was once a month at best and was a chore for her.
Then she decided to try ivf again upon agreement that she would look after us in the bedroom to keep us connected.

we had sex i think 2 times in that pregnancy maximum.
and since our new daughter was born 12 months ago i bet you could count on 2 hands how many times we have had sex or contact._

Losing twins at 26 weeks sounds like an extremely traumatic experience for anyone, nevermind someone who has gone through 15 years of infertility followed by the stress and cost of infertility treatments. I think in general this type of tragedy affects the mother much more than the father and has a much longer-lasting effect on the mother. On top of the emotional pain, the physical procedure itself would be something that would be extremely difficult to get over. 

Did your wife get any type of grief counseling after this loss?


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> _Me and my partner have been together 19 years and spent the first 15 years knowing we couldnt have kids as my partner had fallopian tube problems.
> i accepted this and stayed despite my fathering urges.
> however 5 years ago my partner started paid ivf treatment and successfully gave birth to our daughter .
> during the 9 months of pregnancy we abstained from sexual activitys , due to risks. absolutley nothing was given.
> ...


no she did not get any counselling, she was offered it but declined it.

i would totally agree that the mother is going to have the hardest time dealing with a loss of pregnancy.

and i fully appreciate this ,


i really think that we are completely stuck in the never-ending circle here.

i am going to wait till she gets back and see what she has to say, if anything!
odds are she will return late and go almost straight to bed to avoid us talking!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I honestly think she is struggling with grieving. My auntie died at age 52 and my gramma said it was the hardest thing she's ever had to go through...even the death of my grandfather (married over 60 years) was nothing like she said it was when losing her child. 

I hope you two can talk. Maybe ask her to sit with you just to listen to what you want to say and be loving and say how you feel without placing any blame on her.


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I honestly think she is struggling with grieving. My auntie died at age 52 and my gramma said it was the hardest thing she's ever had to go through...even the death of my grandfather (married over 60 years) was nothing like she said it was when losing her child.
> 
> I hope you two can talk. Maybe ask her to sit with you just to listen to what you want to say and be loving and say how you feel without placing any blame on her.


your comments really really are hitting home , she is definitely still using our kids as a comfort blanket to deal with the twins.

only last week ( and i missed this until now, i am weeping at the min so excuse me) she said that the girl twin really looked like our eldest daughter


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. A few of my dearest friends have lost a child...one was 34 weeks, one had a 4 month old lost to SIDS and another lost her son at birth. All of these happened over 3 years ago, all the women have since had other children, but none of them are healed. 

My friend who lost her baby at 34 weeks beats herself up for not being "good enough" to support her baby to term. Something SO out of her control! But she still relives the day she lost her child.

You wife has been through a lot. Infertility alone can stress a person to horrible levels. My friend B couldn't conceive for 5 years (she had a 5 year old already) and the crap she talked about herself was heartbreaking. She's now 30 weeks pregnant...such a blessing.

But to go through all of that, mentally, really takes its toll. I can only imagine why your wife uses your child as a 'security blanket' or rather just wants to have them close to protect them, since she couldn't protect the twins.

I can't imagine the devastation your wife must feel, not only about losing the twins, but disappointing you. That guilt, while unwarranted, is VERY real and very damaging.

Try to talk to her. Tell her this has been on your mind and you want her to know its safe to grieve with you. Sometimes, like with a couple of my friends' husbands, the man just shuts down. He doesn't really want to talk about it. He just wants to 'move on'. While this seems logical, it's not always practical and can leave a grieving mother in a pool of resentment and abandonment during her time of anguish.

Again, I hope you two can really get to the root of the problem...and it's not about sex. There is a wall there that the both of you are scared to put down, I'm thinking. You're both scared of what may be on the other side. she may not want to talk about the twins beacuse she thinks you're "over it" and you may not want to upset her by talking about it. But the twins were real. They existed. She needs to grieve.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Did you both have any real closure? A memorial service? Anything?

My friend who lost her baby at 34 weeks had a memorial a year later with just her husband and some friends/family. They released balloons and put the baby's name on a plaque which they hung on a tree they planted in the backyard for their baby.

Let her see you cry. Let her see you grieve. I know men like to be the strong ones for their families, and that's wonderful, but sometimes, crying together shows strength too.


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Yea. A few of my dearest friends have lost a child...one was 34 weeks, one had a 4 month old lost to SIDS and another lost her son at birth. All of these happened over 3 years ago, all the women have since had other children, but none of them are healed.
> 
> My friend who lost her baby at 34 weeks beats herself up for not being "good enough" to support her baby to term. Something SO out of her control! But she still relives the day she lost her child.
> 
> ...


i think you are right on the money there.

i know my initial post seems like im only interested in the sex part but i am not at all. i think i was just venting my frustrations at what seemed like i was being played.
it still is a massive issue with us as a couple cannot survive without a connection/intimacy.

but i really need to deal with the massive issue that could be the twins loss to see what is stopping us from firstly being friends


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So to answer your question...No, i don't think it's over.

I think it can be healed. You focused on sex because that is how you feel loved and accepted and fulfilled. It gives you a sense of security and fills the void of loss.

She, on the other hand, withdrew. She may need non-physical reassurances of your love and devotion. 

Both of you are hurting. Both of you are trying to fill a void. She's filling it with your children, you'd like to fill it with sex. 

But that's only a bandaid. Solve the inner struggle and heal the pain and you'll probably heal your marriage. Your intimacy can be renewed, imo, by grieving together. that's very personal, very raw, and very bonding.


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## The window cleaner (Jul 14, 2012)

that_girl said:


> So to answer your question...No, i don't think it's over.
> 
> I think it can be healed. You focused on sex because that is how you feel loved and accepted and fulfilled. It gives you a sense of security and fills the void of loss.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking *YOUR* time to try and help us.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

My experience with those I know who have gone through losing a near-term child has been similar to what That Girl described.

Losing a child before it is born but when it is getting close to full term seems to be maybe even more devastating than losing one as an infant, because people treat it more like an early miscarriage than the death of a child, there is no death certificate, no wake, no funeral, maybe not even a burial service, and to the couple who lost the baby that was nearly full term, it really was the death of a child.

Also, the men in the situation tend not to talk about it and never mention it again, while the women have an extremely tough time every year on the anniversary of the "birth"/death and are disappointed in the seeming lack of awareness of the husband regarding that anniversary date each year.

I have seen this cause somewhat of a "distance" between the spouses and sometimes somewhat of a resentment from the woman.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Do you have a memorial area in your home? After my wife’s brother took his own life I made a memorial of him for her. I made room on a nice bookshelf, it consisted of things like a photo of the soccer team he supported, two candles, a bible and a cross and a photo of him. It was a place she could go to and light the candles when she was thinking on him. I also took her into churches and taught her about private prayer time and lighting a candle. I’d go out and leave her there to her thoughts and prayers until she was ready to go home.

Losing two children is a massive thing. It’s really really huge. For both of you. But see if you can lead the grieving, get some candles and a bible (if that’s your thing) and some of those plaques with angels and poetry on them, things like that and make a memorial.

Put the anniversary of their passing in your diary if you haven't already done so and make a special occasion, like a walk in the woods on that anniversary.


Then read up on the grieving process, understand it, most especially the cycle of emotions that you go through. And see if you can get her into counselling. Leading the way by helping your wife to grieve will make you feel better. But do look after yourself as well. You will need some counselling.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

If you are going to do make a memorial, I wouldn’t tell your wife, just do it. I was thinking on two small, single flower vases and maybe a pink and blue flower, even imitation ones can be really good. She can put her personal touches later.

I think it will help your wife, it certainly did mine. And hopefully it will also help the two of you connect at the spiritual, soul and emotional levels in some way. At the moment I’m guessing “all” your wife sees is you trying to connect to her physically/sexually, these things give the two of you new and different dimensions and maybe they will help you on your way to become united in your grief and not divided in it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

I don't anyone could stay together without professional help after all you two have been through. The sooner you reach out to someone, the better


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I don't anyone could stay together without professional help after all you two have been through. The sooner you reach out to someone, the better


Yes, this is good. l love the memorial idea too. Both gems.


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## Hira (Aug 16, 2012)

What is marriage therapy mean?


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