# Silly Issue "Shirt", just the same concerning



## AllgoodNGA (May 8, 2018)

Greetings, 1st time writer and I am sure it will not be my last.

I was recently married in the Cayman's actually just last week. My new hubby works with a lady named Cindy, he quite frequently talks about her from time to time. On our honeymoon he made mention that he needed to get her a shirt from the Harley Davidson while we were in the Cayman's and that she would pay him back for the shirt. Now mind you I was not all that thrilled that he took time out of our honeymoon to go buy a shirt for a woman. Bear in mind we had to look at sizes, he would ask me what do you think about this one. I honestly was taken back by it all but nonetheless I gave honest suggestions. He was picking out more of a mans t-shirt black in color and wheres I picked up one that was not black and it was feminine in appearance with beach vibrant colors as we are in the Caymans. He said I am not sure she would like that and I said well you asked my opinion and I think any lady would love it. (I own my own Harley and I don't like all the black Harley garb which is why I suggested the one I did. He finally said ok I will buy it and I said well if she doesn't, she can come to the Cayman's and buy one herself.

Ok, so yesterday he went back to work and he gave her the shirt. When I got home I asked him if Cindy liked the shirt. He said she loved it and loved the color. I smiled proudly and asked did you tell her that I picked it out. My smile tuned in puzzlement when he said "No". Of course I asked him "Why didn't you tell her that I picked it out". His response lowered my puzzlement into a sad heart when he said " If I told her you picked it out she would not have worn it" 

From that point of conversation he became very defensive about the subject I asked him if you two are just friends then why would she have a problem with me picking out a shirt for her. I told him if she was sweet on him then she might have a problem with it but just friends who would even care. Then I reminded him that I honestly found it very inappropriate that he would agree to buy her a shirt while on OUR HONEYMOON with me or why she felt that she had liberty to even ask for a shirt. 

I told him that I was taken aback that he had even bought her a shirt but that I took it in stride and didn't press the subject while we were searching for the shirt. What was not acceptable was that after the shirt was purchased for her ... is that he wouldn't tell her that I picked it out because he was fearful of how she would feel about it. Well that was a bit too much for this bride to bear. I told him that he he led her to believe that he was the one that picked her out somewhat of a sexy shirt. I told him that I din't understand and what message he was sending to her and What message was being sent to me. I said that it made me feel as though her feelings were more important than mine.

Well that is what transpired. Comments are welcome even if I am not justified in my thoughts perhaps i just need a different perspective.

Discombobulated Bride
Janet


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Are you and your husband lifestyle bikers, or hobby bikers?


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

I totally understand where you are coming from. It seems your husband doesn't get what's bothering you, even after you've tried to explain it. This would be a good time to get the two of you in front of a couples counselor who can help you learn how to manage this difference of opinions. Couples counseling is not supposed to be just for when things are so terrible there is no choice! If you nip this in the bud you are much more likely to have a great relationship going forward. (Full disclosure: I am a couples counselor. But I am not trying to sell you anything. Just giving my perspective on what is most likely to lead to marital success.)


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Next time you 'bump' into this women, whom you bought this shirt 'for', ask her how she liked it.

Tell her that you picked it out for her.

In fact, make a point of bumping into her. 

Soon. 
Do so, without saying why.

Protect your ass-set. 
Your wishy washy, play-tag. 
Maytag, hand-wringing, washer husband.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Next time you 'bump' into this women, whom you bought this shirt 'for', ask her how she liked it.
> 
> Tell her that you picked it out for her.
> 
> ...


This is a great way to cause more conflict, not to resolve it. if you're looking to make things better, I wouldn't recommend this. If you're just looking to stir the pot and make people uncomfortable, then it's a pretty good option.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Drop by your H work with lunch unannounced. When you see his coworker ask her if she liked the shirt from the Caymans. Let her answer. Then in the next breath invite her and her H(BF) to dinner(cookout) with your H. Mate guarding!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Raffi said:


> This is a great way to cause more conflict, not to resolve it. if you're looking to make things better, I wouldn't recommend this. If you're just looking to stir the pot and make people uncomfortable, then it's a pretty good option.


Read the next post after mine.

@Yeswecan, we can set them straight. 

He and the Coworker need to get their priorities straight. Right from the get go.

From a tepid response, a tepid reaction, you get your Tea with tepid warm water.
Not a satisfying brew, for you....


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

Yeah, this is more of the same. You will create more conflict, not solve it. Which is fine, if that's your goal. But if you are looking to improve your marriage, throwing your objection in people's faces is unlikely to do that. (Mind you, the suggestion to have this woman and her significant other over together has merit. But how you do it makes a big difference. Also, you should definitely be doing all of this WITH your husband, not in secret.)


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

I did read it, and I responded. Your approach is very satisfying... for the short term. If AllGoodNGA wants a solid, fulfilling, long-term marriage, I humbly submit that this is not the way to go.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Raffi said:


> Yeah, this is more of the same. You will create more conflict, not solve it. Which is fine, if that's your goal. But if you are looking to improve your marriage, throwing your objection in people's faces is unlikely to do that. (Mind you, the suggestion to have this woman and her significant other over together has merit. But how you do it makes a big difference. Also, you should definitely be doing all of this WITH your husband, not in secret.)


I'm not sure how complimenting or asking about a shirt causes conflict.

OP, I would just point blank ask him why she would not have worn it had you picked it out. Then I would tell him that it appears to you this woman is too heavily invested in his life, and he in hers.

And yes, I would take hubby out to lunch at work one day and introduce myself to the woman in a friendly way. Tell her you are so pleased that she liked the shirt you picked out.

You can do all of that with a friendly attitude. If nice chit chat causes conflict, you have a bigger problem on your hands, quite frankly.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I would take hubby out to lunch at work one day and introduce myself to the woman in a friendly way. Tell her you are so pleased that she liked the shirt you picked out.


This is a fine idea. It should be discussed with hubby beforehand, though, not a surprise.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Raffi said:


> This is a fine idea. It should be discussed with hubby beforehand, though, not a surprise.


Why? Give H time to make adjustments to demeanor with the coworker?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

I would just ask your husband the question you seek the answer to. It doesn't sound healthy


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> Why? Give H time to make adjustments to demeanor with the coworker?


Because otherwise it is setting up antagonism.

I'm not really here to win any arguments. You are entitled to your opinions. AllGoodNGA, I would highly recommend you avoid advice that puts you in the position of trying to impose a solution on the relationship and work collaboratively with your husband, and possibly a counselor, to resolve things.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Raffi said:


> Because otherwise it is setting up antagonism.
> 
> I'm not really here to win any arguments. You are entitled to your opinions. AllGoodNGA, I would highly recommend you avoid advice that puts you in the position of trying to impose a solution on the relationship and work collaboratively with your husband, and possibly a counselor, to resolve things.


"We are all entitled to our opinions, but, OP, don't listen to anyone else lol"

This doesn't have to be a big deal with counseling appointments. Talk to the hubby, feel out the friend. Easy peasy.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

OP, it would do you a world of good to recognize how your conflict avoidance contributed/is contributing to your husband's poor boundaries. 

Your husband informing you about his need to buy a shirt for this woman and asking you to assist with picking the sizes was him testing you to see what you were willing to let him get away with. Instead of being up front about your feelings, you tried to play it cool and give "honest suggestions". BIG MISTAKE.

You communicated to him that this was not a problem when you willingly went along with his plan. Your bull**** meter should have been going crazy, and this would have been the perfect opportunity for you to put your foot down and say "EXCUSE ME! Who is this woman? This is not appropriate and I am not ok with you doing xyz." 

If you do not stand up for yourself and demand the treatment that you deserve without feeling like you're making a big deal about nothing/it's not that bad/his not that kind of person, your husband WILLL make the mistake of engaging in an emotional affair (which could quickly turn into a physical affair) with this woman.

BOUNDARIES BOUNDARIES BOUNDARIES!


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Raffi said:


> Because otherwise it is setting up antagonism.
> 
> I'm not really here to win any arguments. You are entitled to your opinions. AllGoodNGA, I would highly recommend you avoid advice that puts you in the position of trying to impose a solution on the relationship and work collaboratively with your husband, and possibly a counselor, to resolve things.


They could not collaborate on a t-shirt. What makes you believe the OP can collaborate with this issue, H and a counselor? 

There should be no issue arriving to ones W/H place of employment unannounced. My W does stop by all the time. Unannounced. If this is an issue there are bigger problems than a t-shirt.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> This doesn't have to be a big deal with counseling appointments. Talk to the hubby, feel out the friend. Easy peasy.


Oh, I quite agree. But so far it seems that the hubby isn't willing to discuss this and isn't getting why there is a problem here. If you guys can have an open conversation about it, great. If not, don't go trying to lay down the line at his workplace. You will get much farther having open conversations with a counselor.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> They could not collaborate on a t-shirt. What makes you believe the OP can collaborate with this issue, H and a counselor?


That's the job of a counselor - to help people work together better. If you get a bad counselor, then it probably won't work very well. If you get a good one then you ill.



Yeswecan said:


> There should be no issue arriving to ones W/H place of employment unannounced. My W does stop by all the time. Unannounced. If this is an issue there are bigger problems than a t-shirt.


There ARE bigger problems here with a T-shirt. Which is why stopping by unannounced is going to be a bad idea.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Raffi said:


> That's the job of a counselor - to help people work together better. If you get a bad counselor, then it probably won't work very well. If you get a good one then you ill.
> 
> 
> 
> There ARE bigger problems here with a T-shirt. Which is why stopping by unannounced is going to be a bad idea.


Why is it a bad idea? The OP drops by with a lunch. It's lunch.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> Why is it a bad idea? The OP drops by with a lunch. It's lunch.


What you are suggesting is not that OP stops by for just lunch. You are suggesting she comes to make a statement about boundaries, observe how he reacts, etc. He is not going to miss that nor will he appreciate it.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Raffi said:


> This is a fine idea. It should be discussed with hubby beforehand, though, not a surprise.


And, I think that the element of surprise would be better to go with here. His and her reactions could be very telling. Then again, if the OP tells her H ahead of time, his reaction then would also be telling.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Raffi said:


> What you are suggesting is not that OP stops by for just lunch. You are suggesting she comes to make a statement about boundaries, observe how he reacts, etc. He is not going to miss that nor will he appreciate it.


Read my posts again. I recommended dropping by her H work unannounced with lunch. When she sees the coworker ask if she likes the shirt from the Caymans. Then in the next breath ask the coworker to dinner(cookout) with her H/BF. Nowhere did I suggest dropping boundaries at her H place of employment. It's lunch and hello to a coworker with possible invite to dinner or activity with coworkers significant other. No confrontation at all. It is a form of mate guarding.

Read my posts again.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

Ursula said:


> And, I think that the element of surprise would be better to go with here. His and her reactions could be very telling. Then again, if the OP tells her H ahead of time, his reaction then would also be telling.


The element of surprise is something you use in war, not relationships (unless perhaps you are planning a surprise party. Anything you do that is not in the context of working together with your spouse is going to cause bigger problems over the long run.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> Read my posts again. I recommended dropping by her H work unannounced with lunch. When she sees the coworker ask if she likes the shirt from the Caymans. Then in the next breath ask the coworker to dinner(cookout) with her H/BF. Nowhere did I suggest dropping boundaries at her H place of employment. It's lunch and hello to a coworker with possible invite to dinner or activity with coworkers significant other. No confrontation at all. It is a form of mate guarding.
> 
> Read my posts again.


Is there any reason not to have the husband's consent for all of this?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I'm not sure how complimenting or asking about a shirt causes conflict.
> 
> OP, I would just point blank ask him why she would not have worn it had you picked it out. Then I would tell him that it appears to you this woman is too heavily invested in his life, and he in hers.
> 
> ...


Argh!

SCM's Avatar said the same thing. @Rowan and @Ursula did not 'like' that one.
I guess some of the other post's coming from this volcano left a bad taste in their mouths.

I guess it needs to come from a women.

Actually, it did, it came from the Red Queen.
She neglected to sign off on her advice. 
Bad Queen.


The Host-


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Raffi said:


> This is a fine idea. It should be discussed with hubby beforehand, though, not a surprise.


I went back and read your' creds'.

They are impressive.

Ref OP: Since her/their marriage and her/their life are 'just' beginning I am willing to bend on 'this' one.
Go easy 'at first' and see if he steps up and sets proper boundaries.

Oh, and watch him like a hawk. :|


Expect no deference from me in any future postings. :grin2:




The Red Queen-


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## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

Raffi said:


> Because otherwise it is setting up antagonism.
> 
> I'm not really here to win any arguments. You are entitled to your opinions. AllGoodNGA, I would highly recommend you avoid advice that puts you in the position of trying to impose a solution on the relationship and work collaboratively with your husband, and possibly a counselor, to resolve things.



With all due respect (you are the professional), please explain WHY surprising the husband is a bad idea apart from just not wanting to risk antagonism, etc. 

The husband is already causing antagonism to the wife because she does not know the nature of the relationship he has with another woman at his job. The husband is also not being forthcoming with information when the wife already tried to speak with him. It's pretty obvious that he does not want to divulge any of the details his wife needs for her own piece of mind. That being the case, why should she trust him to go along with the plan of getting the other woman (and her partner) to join them at an outside of work function? 

Raffi, it's not that the members are trying to attack you, but it just doesn't seem like the tactic you are suggesting is going to produce the results that the OP is looking for and at this point, we are curious as to how trusting the husband to work with the wife in this matter is going to help when he hasn't been trustworthy thus far...


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Raffi said:


> This is a fine idea. It should be discussed with hubby beforehand, though, not a surprise.





SunCMars said:


> Argh!
> 
> SCM's Avatar said the same thing. @Rowan and @Ursula did not 'like' that one.
> I guess some of the other post's coming from this volcano left a bad taste in their mouths.
> ...


Sorry @SunCMars, which post do you refer to that myself and @Rowan didn't "like"? Was it the one about the tea or the wishy-washy play-tag? I didn't understand either reference, so that's why I didn't hit "like" on them.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Raffi said:


> Is there any reason not to have the husband's consent for all of this?


Why should a H consent to having his W appear at his place of employment? I can only think of a few. H is a cop walking his beat. Brain surgeon and in the middle of a pituitary gland. If all is on the up and up in a relationship consent to arrive to one's job should not be a concern or thought. Never has been with anyone I have know. 

My W does not need consent to come to POE. I know no one who's had their H/W advise when they are coming to their significant other job.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Raffi said:


> Is there any reason not to have the husband's consent for all of this?


Well, he has so demonstrated that he is rather immature, cavalier, careless and clueless.

By telling him 'aforehand', he may tip her off.

By telling him 'aforehand', he may tell the co-worker to to make herself unavailable, invisible. 
Not subject to the subject at hand. This defeating the purpose of the 'visit'.





The Host-


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Raffi said:


> The element of surprise is something you use in war, not relationships (unless perhaps you are planning a surprise party. Anything you do that is not in the context of working together with your spouse is going to cause bigger problems over the long run.


The element of surprise is something used in war? Is the marriage a war? No, it is a marriage that should be based on trust. Enemies have no trust. Right now the trust is failing.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Raffi said:


> Is there any reason not to have the husband's consent for all of this?


Raffi, in my ignorance, I am wondering why she can't just straight up ask him why he said that and explain to him how his actions made her feel? If he isn't forthcoming then I would think that maybe they need more help but it doesn't seem like they do now if he is willing to communicate with his wife. I defer to your expertise


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## sa58 (Feb 26, 2018)

Ride your Harley to your husbands work unexpected.
I hope your bike has loud pipes like mine. Make a good 
impression on husband and Cindy.

Make a point to meet Cindy and ask her how she liked 
the shirt. Then tell her you picked it out not your husband.
If your husband has a problem with it ask him why.
If he can't understand why you are upset, explain it.

If it is still a problem then get a new husband. 

You just got married and need to stop this NOW!! or you will have 
a long hard marriage. I am sure if you bought something 
for a male coworker hubby would be furious..

Stop whatever is going on NOW!!!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Raffi said:


> Is there any reason not to have the husband's consent for all of this?


Go to the Coping with Infidelity forums. Pore over them.

They are heartbreaking. 
Some of these affairs could have been stopped if the BS, or 'potentially betrayed' spouse put in a stop-code early on in their lives program.

Some people need to be monitored.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

sa58 said:


> Ride your Harley to your husbands work unexpected.
> I hope your bike has loud pipes like mine.
> 
> Make a point to meet Cindy and ask her how she liked
> ...


It is not the problem of buying the gift at this juncture but how it was handled by the H. If H advised coworker the shirt from both of them and H followed with my W picked it because it looked nicer than the black HD shirts things may be a bit different.


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## sa58 (Feb 26, 2018)

It was and is a problem buying a shirt for another woman 
on their honeymoon. OP even says she was not thrilled 
about taking time to do this. If she had wanted to take time 
away from being with hubby then he would probably not be 
thrilled either. Then hubby handled it the way he did 
that made it worse. Op doesn't say how well or if she
knows Cindy. Her husband talks about Cindy a lot.
He should not have even considered buying anything.

IMO Your honeymoon is for you and your SO not to be 
thinking about other women/men 

Unless its your mom your getting a gift for. I am sure OP 
would not mind that.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> I went back and read your' creds'.
> 
> They are impressive.
> 
> ...


Wow. I knew I got that master's degree for SOMETHING.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Raffi said:


> SunCMars said:
> 
> 
> > I went back and read your' creds'.
> ...


You're very.......confident......arent you?


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

Okay team, let me try to answer everyone's questions and doubts in one go here.

I am working off the assumption that OP wants to preserve and improve the relationship with her husband, not prove that he is a jerk and walk away. (If the latter is the goal, then yes, my suggestions are not the way to go.) If so, showing up to work unannounced with the intent of marking off her territory or sending a message to husband and/or Cindy is going to push husband into defensiveness, whether or not he is guilty of anything. Defensiveness leads to more arguing and frustration. Does anyone think he is going to say, "Well, you caught me! I've been flirting with Cindy a lot. Even though I haven't slept with her yet, the thought has crossed my mind. But now that I see I can't get away with it, I am going to turn my energies back to you, forget about Cindy, and we can go back to having a wonderful relationship"? Or is he going to say, "Why the hell do you feel the need to spy on me? I TOLD you nothing is going on. Can't you $^%ing TRUST me??? This is ridiculous. You're making a huge deal about nothing." (Spoiler alert: it will be the second one.) And by the way, that will be his response whether or not he is doing something inappropriate with Cindy (or thinking about it). I have seen unfaithful spouses get extremely angry and offended when accused of being unfaithful, denying it ferociously until they are actually caught.

The only way to change things to IMPROVE their relationship is together. Anything OP tries to do unilaterally is NOT going to make this relationship stronger. If he is unable or unwilling to see her point of view and recognize that it's hurtful, they should absolutely go to a couples counselor who can help them dialogue about this issue productively. And if at the end of the day he refuses to acknowledge her perspective and her feelings, then it's up to OP to decide whether she wants to be in a marriage with a such a person.

Does that help?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Raffi said:


> Okay team, let me try to answer everyone's questions and doubts in one go here.
> 
> I am working off the assumption that OP wants to preserve and improve the relationship with her husband, not prove that he is a jerk and walk away. (If the latter is the goal, then yes, my suggestions are not the way to go.) If so, showing up to work unannounced with the intent of marking off her territory or sending a message to husband and/or Cindy is going to push husband into defensiveness, whether or not he is guilty of anything. Defensiveness leads to more arguing and frustration. Does anyone think he is going to say, "Well, you caught me! I've been flirting with Cindy a lot. Even though I haven't slept with her yet, the thought has crossed my mind. But now that I see I can't get away with it, I am going to turn my energies back to you, forget about Cindy, and we can go back to having a wonderful relationship"? Or is he going to say, "Why the hell do you feel the need to spy on me? I TOLD you nothing is going on. Can't you $^%ing TRUST me??? This is ridiculous. You're making a huge deal about nothing." (Spoiler alert: it will be the second one.) And by the way, that will be his response whether or not he is doing something inappropriate with Cindy (or thinking about it). I have seen unfaithful spouses get extremely angry and offended when accused of being unfaithful, denying it ferociously until they are actually caught.
> 
> ...


Well, than, I guess TAM doesn't need the rest of us....

I understand the line of thinking. But he basically opened the door to questions in her mind when A) buying a shirt for someone else was such an important task and B) he seemed so weird about telling her his wife picked it out. And if it really IS true that this woman wouldn't have worn it had she known....then this woman needs a wake up call.

Believe it or not, there can be more than one way to deal with something.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

There are many ways this can be dealt with. Any path that involves OP trying to control or force the situation will lead to more conflict. There are multiple ways this can be dealt with collaboratively, which is after all what a relationship is about.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

AllgoodNGA said:


> Greetings, 1st time writer and I am sure it will not be my last.
> 
> I was recently married in the Cayman's actually just last week. My new hubby works with a lady named Cindy, he quite frequently talks about her from time to time. On our honeymoon he made mention that he needed to get her a shirt from the Harley Davidson while we were in the Cayman's and that she would pay him back for the shirt. Now mind you I was not all that thrilled that he took time out of our honeymoon to go buy a shirt for a woman. Bear in mind we had to look at sizes, he would ask me what do you think about this one. I honestly was taken back by it all but nonetheless I gave honest suggestions. He was picking out more of a mans t-shirt black in color and wheres I picked up one that was not black and it was feminine in appearance with beach vibrant colors as we are in the Caymans. He said I am not sure she would like that and I said well you asked my opinion and I think any lady would love it. (I own my own Harley and I don't like all the black Harley garb which is why I suggested the one I did. He finally said ok I will buy it and I said well if she doesn't, she can come to the Cayman's and buy one herself.
> 
> ...


*Your H should more than realize that this is your honeymoon and your marriage, and not the wants, needs, and whims of some other third-party woman from his office! You as his new wife are, or should be, Priority One!

He needs his head checked for the mere suggestion of buying the damned shirt in the first place!

If he ever asks your advice on what to get her while the two of you are shopping at Victoria's Secret, then you'll know that you're in deep!*


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Raffi said:


> There are many ways this can be dealt with. Any path that involves OP trying to control or force the situation will lead to more conflict. There are multiple ways this can be dealt with collaboratively, which is after all what a relationship is about.


Conflict isn't always a bad thing, and avoiding conflict isn't always a good thing.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Raffi said:


> This is a great way to cause more conflict, not to resolve it. if you're looking to make things better, I wouldn't recommend this. If you're just looking to stir the pot and make people uncomfortable, then it's a pretty good option.


 The OP telling her that she helped pick out the shirt would only cause conflict if the other woman thinks of herself as more than just friends with the OP’s husband. If that is the case, this is a good way for the OP to smoke things out. I have no issue with conflict when it comes to protecting a marriage.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Raffi said:


> Wow. I knew I got that master's degree for SOMETHING.


 There are good couples counselors with master’s degrees, and there are bad couples counselors with master’s degrees.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Raffi said:


> Wow. I knew I got that master's degree for SOMETHING.


I'm bet it looks great on your wall.


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## sa58 (Feb 26, 2018)

Cindy may not even like or care who bought
the shirt. She may even like the fact that OP 
picked it,. The only information the OP has to go on is what 
the husband is saying. OP needs to go find out for herself
what is going on. OP does not need to get angry or 
confront anyone just ask questions and find out what new
hubby is doing. 

A new wife should not be dealing with this or feeling this way.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

TRy said:


> There are good couples counselors with master’s degrees, and there are bad couples counselors with master’s degrees.


And even with a PhD.🤣


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

brooklynAnn said:


> And even with a *PhD*.🤣


Amen to that. I have a fiend who jokes that PhD can stand for phenomenal dou.....


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

brooklynAnn said:


> And even with a PhD.🤣





personofinterest said:


> Amen to that. I have a fiend who jokes that PhD can stand for phenomenal dou.....


I often find real world experience is the one best counsel.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> Drop by your H work with lunch unannounced. When you see his coworker ask her if she liked the shirt from the Caymans. Let her answer. Then in the next breath invite her and her H(BF) to dinner(cookout) with your H. Mate guarding!


I'm telling you i like this and there's nothing wrong with stopping by H work place. Respectfully disagreeing with naysayers on this.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Go to the Coping with Infidelity forums. Pore over them.
> 
> They are heartbreaking.
> Some of these affairs could have been stopped if the BS, or 'potentially betrayed' spouse put in a stop-code early on in their lives program.
> ...


Is very true.

Hey, I need to be monitored sometimes......but not about doing things that would continue to bother my wife, once she pointed it out to me if I missed something. But we're both pretty good on that stuff.
Key point...both are pretty good. You're H needs to put better glasses on.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Yeswecan said:
> 
> 
> > Drop by your H work with lunch unannounced. When you see his coworker ask her if she liked the shirt from the Caymans. Let her answer. Then in the next breath invite her and her H(BF) to dinner(cookout) with your H. Mate guarding!
> ...


So let's say she does this. How exactly do you see things going that end up with her having a better relationship with her husband?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

*Silly Issue &quot;Shirt&quot;, just the same concerning*

If you do something now to antagonize your husband he might have a realization that what he is doing is wrong. He needs a good swift kick to jar his head out of his...

Fear of antagonizing others is appeasement. 

There’s a reason it says don’t tread on me. That garners respect.

If your husband doesn’t respect you he will not love you.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

*Re: Silly Issue &quot;Shirt&quot;, just the same concerning*

When is the last time you antagonized somebody and they said, "Oh, wow, that was so obnoxious. I realize now how wrong I was"?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Raffi said:


> When is the last time you antagonized somebody and they said, "Oh, wow, that was so obnoxious. I realize now how wrong I was"?


When was the last time surprising ones hubby with lunch is automatically antagonistic?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Raffi said:


> There are many ways this can be dealt with. Any path that involves OP trying to control or force the situation will lead to more conflict. There are multiple ways this can be dealt with collaboratively, which is after all what a relationship is about.


DH and y therapist has done a great deal to help DH and I negotiate things where we saw things differently. Nothing like this. But I can get where Raffi is coming from.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Raffi said:


> So let's say she does this. How exactly do you see things going that end up with her having a better relationship with her husband?


 When the OP drops by for lunch unexpectedly, the OP may get an opportunity to see how they interact with each other; is there a lot of touching, do they whisper to each other, and other such things going on? Also, the way that the other woman reacts to the OP telling the other woman that the OP helped pick out the shirt, will be telling; if nothing is going between them, the OP helping find the shirt should not be an issue. Learning the truth about her husband would help the OP make an informed decision before they have children together.

As for the OP “having a better relationship with her husband”, ending an inappropriate relationship between the husband and other woman would be a strong first step in having a better relationship.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

TRy said:


> There are good couples counselors with master’s degrees, and there are bad couples counselors with master’s degrees.


Not sure which of those I am, but in my opinion the benefit really comes not from the five years of theory training and the certificate on the wall, but from experience. When you've worked with hundreds of couples then you see how different things play out. TAM, of course, collectively also represents a huge accumulation of experience. 

I don't think we can say in the same breath that dropping in at his work is a simple innocent action that anyone might do, with no special significance, and at the same time that it might produce changes that will help to solve the problem. And I believe there IS a problem. 

Trying to say those two things at the same time, is to mirror exactly the husband's behaviour: I'm just buying someone a shirt, deny that it means anything, and at the same time, she wouldn't wear it if it was from you. It's the same "say it doesn't mean anything, when knowing it does" tactic. It's a dangerous route to take, joining in with the "plausible deniability" thing.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

TRy said:


> Also, the way that the other woman reacts to the OP telling the other woman that the OP helped pick out the shirt, will be telling; if nothing is going between them, the OP helping find the shirt should not be an issue.


What do you (all) make of the fact that the OP's husband not only _believed _that "Cindy" wouldn't wear the shirt if it came from the OP, but also that he *told the OP so!* Why didn't he keep schtum about that?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> Not sure which of those I am, but in my opinion the benefit really comes not from the five years of theory training and the certificate on the wall, but from experience. When you've worked with hundreds of couples then you see how different things play out. TAM, of course, collectively also represents a huge accumulation of experience.
> 
> *I don't think we can say in the same breath that dropping in at his work is a simple innocent action that anyone might do, with no special significance, and at the same time that it might produce changes that will help to solve the problem.* And I believe there IS a problem.
> 
> Trying to say those two things at the same time, is to mirror exactly the husband's behaviour: I'm just buying someone a shirt, deny that it means anything, and at the same time, she wouldn't wear it if it was from you. It's the same "say it doesn't mean anything, when knowing it does" tactic. It's a dangerous route to take, joining in with the "plausible deniability" thing.


It's not so much that dropping in on his work _is_ a simple innocent action that anyone might do, it's that it _should be_ a simple innocent action that anyone might do. And if it turns out not to be the case here that's valuable information about the true state of their relationship.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Raffi said:


> So let's say she does this. How exactly do you see things going that end up with her having a better relationship with her husband?


From my experience...it is a wonderful part of my relationship with my W of 24 years. 15 years or so ago my W arrived to my place of employment unannounced and took me away to a park. At the park she had wine and cheese in a basket. We spent the rest of the afternoon together. She contacted my boss before hand to inquire if it was ok she did this unexpected arrival and take me away. All planned for me. A surprise certainly. It shows me my W cared for me then as she does now. To this day she will arrive to my POE sometimes unexpected or will text she is in the area. All she asks for is a kiss. Some weeks we go to lunch during the work week. 

Nowhere in my posts did I recommend coming into the OP H workplace like Rambo out for first blood. You seem to believe this is the motive of me suggesting an unannounced visit. An innocent question with the coworker concerning the shirt. Perhaps asking if all can get together for an outing of some sort. Apparently these folks are motorcycle riders. Plan a cruise perhaps. PO H should understand this is now a marriage.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

*Re: Silly Issue &quot;Shirt&quot;, just the same concerning*



Raffi said:


> When is the last time you antagonized somebody and they said, "Oh, wow, that was so obnoxious. I realize now how wrong I was"?


I think I was 8-15 years old when antagonizing was going on. But, not only later in life did I realize it was wrong. Kids are cruel. I know I was one once.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

TRy said:


> When the OP drops by for lunch unexpectedly, the OP may get an opportunity to see how they interact with each other; is there a lot of touching, do they whisper to each other, and other such things going on?


I don't understand - is she secretly spying on them? Or do you think that husband is going to wave hello to OP and continue engaging in these inappropriate behaviors?



> Also, the way that the other woman reacts to the OP telling the other woman that the OP helped pick out the shirt, will be telling; if nothing is going between them, the OP helping find the shirt should not be an issue. Learning the truth about her husband would help the OP make an informed decision before they have children together.
> 
> As for the OP “having a better relationship with her husband”, ending an inappropriate relationship between the husband and other woman would be a strong first step in having a better relationship.


You skipped over the part where the husband gets angry and defensive and accuses her of spying. If he IS having an inappropriate relationship with the other woman, this is much more likely to push him to choose the other woman over the wife.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Raffi said:


> I don't understand - is she secretly spying on them? Or do you think that husband is going to wave hello to OP and continue engaging in these inappropriate behaviors?
> 
> 
> 
> You skipped over the part where the husband gets angry and defensive and accuses her of spying. If he IS having an inappropriate relationship with the other woman,* this is much more likely to push him to choose the other woman over the wife*.


And this would be a bad thing? If he is having an inappropriate relationship, and then he gets angry and defensive about being called out on it, is that really the kind of person one would want to be married to anyway? Good riddence I say.

See, the way I look at it is this. If my wife was spying on me, or digging around, it would not bother me. It would open a dialog as to what was making her feel the need to do so. Was there something I was saying or doing that made her feel threatened. I would help allay her fears, not get angry and defensive.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

samyeagar said:


> And this would be a bad thing? If he is having an inappropriate relationship, and then he gets angry and defensive about being called out on it, is that really the kind of person one would want to be married to anyway? Good riddence I say.


There are many people who choose to work things out with even an unfaithful partner. It may not be the right choice for you, but it may be for other people, including OP. 



samyeagar said:


> See, the way I look at it is this. If my wife was spying on me, or digging around, it would not bother me. It would open a dialog as to what was making her feel the need to do so. Was there something I was saying or doing that made her feel threatened. I would help allay her fears, not get angry and defensive.


Yes, well you aren't doing anything questionable. This guy is. And I can practically guarantee that being called on it in a public way is going to make him more defensive and angry, which is not going to help fix up the relationship. Assuming, again, that's what OP wants. If she doesn't, then heck, do whatever you want.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Raffi said:


> I don't understand - is she secretly spying on them? Or do you think that husband is going to wave hello to OP and continue engaging in these inappropriate behaviors?
> 
> 
> 
> You skipped over the part where the husband gets angry and defensive and accuses her of spying.* If he IS having an inappropriate relationship with the other woman, this is much more likely to push him to choose the other woman over the wife*.


This strikes me as very untherapist-like. Is this wife in the business of competing for her husband? I think our therapist would say something like, do you think you should be playing a pick me game with him?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Raffi said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand - is she secretly spying on them? Or do you think that husband is going to wave hello to OP and continue engaging in these inappropriate behaviors?
> ...


This. I'm not sure walking on eggshells making sure she doesn't "push him to choose the other woman" is exactly "making the marriage better."


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> This strikes me as very untherapist-like. Is this wife in the business of competing for her husband? I think our therapist would say something like, do you think you should be playing a pick me game with him?


 I so agree with what your therapist would say in stating “something like, do you think you should be playing a pick me game with him?” 

Like I said before “There are good couples counselors with master’s degrees, and there are bad couples counselors with master’s degrees”.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> This strikes me as very untherapist-like. Is this wife in the business of competing for her husband? I think our therapist would say something like, do you think you should be playing a pick me game with him?


Of course she shouldn't be competing for her husband. That's why rather than try to force him into behaving the way she would like, she should just talk to him about it.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> This. I'm not sure walking on eggshells making sure she doesn't "push him to choose the other woman" is exactly "making the marriage better."


I'm not sure where you see me advocating walking on eggshells. I am suggesting she speak with the husband directly about this instead of trying to solve the problem around and in spite of him.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Raffi said:


> This is a great way to cause more conflict, not to resolve it. if you're looking to make things better, I wouldn't recommend this. If you're just looking to stir the pot and make people uncomfortable, then it's a pretty good option.


There is never a problem giving someone the truth of the matter. 

Her husband is a asshat.


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## Raffi (Feb 9, 2018)

ABHale said:


> There is never a problem giving someone the truth of the matter.
> 
> Her husband is a asshat.


I am not advocating lying. I am suggesting she approach the problem in a way that is likely to engage his cooperation rather than his defensiveness.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Please stop the thread jack. I you all want to argue, start a new thread on the topic. But the thread jack stops NOW.Threa jacks like this drive away posters and it does seem to have done so on this thread.

From here on out, only post directly to the OP. Anyone who continues the thread jack will enjoy a few days of time-out ban.

{Speaking as a moderator.}


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Raffi said:


> I'm not sure where you see me advocating walking on eggshells. I am suggesting she speak with the husband directly about this instead of trying to solve the problem around and in spite of him.


I agree with this. But for me, this early in a relationship I would be asking myself not just how to solve but whether to solve.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Please stop the thread jack. I you all want to argue, start a new thread on the topic. But the thread jack stops NOW.Threa jacks like this drive away posters and it does seem to have done so on this thread.
> 
> From here on out, only post directly to the OP. Anyone who continues the thread jack will enjoy a few days of time-out ban.
> 
> {Speaking as a moderator.}


Sorry. OP Add me to the camp that thinks you should talk directly to your husband and measure your response based on that.


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