# STBX on hard times



## Erudite

A little back story. I moved out with my children 5 months ago. My ex was in a dispute with the landlord at the time. I had been paying all the rent as my ex was unemployed with no benefits for 3 years. I never once missed a payment nor missed a payment for untilities. Previously we lost our own house and evicted from our next home due to my husbands chronic unemployment. I found a good job, got certified in my field, and seemed to be able to keep things afloat. Even during covid. Then my ex got into it with the landlord anx even though their was no qualm with me or the children wanted us out because of him. It was the final straw. In addition to years of physical, emotional, and financial abuse he was getting us thrown out...again. 

Before we could be evicted I managed to find my own place and moved. This new place is temporary. Money is tight, but rent gets paid on time etc etc. I told him he was not welcome to live in my new home. My ex had no choice but to stay in the old place and fought the land lord in court. He lost. He is appealing. He is still not working. I do not know what his finances look like. I pay his cell bill because it was a family plan under my name and I want the kids to be able to contact their Dad.

It has been 5 months since I moved. I feel incredibly guilty. He has had a couple of interviews but things haven't panned out for him. He resents me. He has lost weight, been drinking more. I don't now what to do.Do I offer to let him stay with us? ( I don't want to) Do I let him become homless? And if I do that what to do about visitation? Any advice would be welcome. Thank you.


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## Trident

I'm not sure about the legality of your actions. As your spouse, he may have a legal right to live wherever you call home. Almost certainly he has a right to some sort of financial support although this varies by state.

Of course it only matters if he makes an issue of it, sounds like he isn't capable of doing much of anything.

As far as what to do? I didn't read your back posts, but if he's physically and emotionally abusive to you and the children then if I was you I'd keep him as far away as possible (but consider limited and supervised visitation with his children).

Rather then just saying "I'm moving away with the kids and you can't come with us", file for divorce and make this legal and permanent.


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## SunCMars

So sorry for the mess, you find yourself in.

From the sound of it, you are a great mother and provider for your family.

You took care of your husband even though he did not deserve it.

Yes, let him find his bottom, carry him no more. 

You did your best, save your energies and finances for your children.
You represent their future, dare ye' not let them down.

He did that, God did he.


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## Rob_1

Don't feel guilty, Why would you? You don't have a partner the dude has been nothing but a burden to you and a negative influence on your children.
As far as legally you having to house him I don't think so, you separated. That's that. Actually he should be providing child support by law.


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## Erudite

I do want to be fair to him and own my faults. I was a SAHM for over ten years. He cycled through jobs ( read fired or quit) like candy but I made it work. I redid his resume for him, found jobs for him, dressed him for work and interviews. Kept the house clean, made lunch for him every day. Took care of our kids. I, we, had a pretty good life.Things really went downhill fast. The times between jobs got longer and longer. I got depressed. Things got worse. I let myself go. I realised I needed to work but as a SAHM I had no experience so my jobs did not pay well enough to keep the house from being foreclosed. I had to pay for daycare even though he wasn't working. I had no clue about public assistance at the time. 

Then I found us a place that would take us with poor credit. It was too expensive for me, even working full time. We lost that place too. I had started having nightmares. Anxiety attacks. High blood pressure. Drove an uninspected car for years. He claimed we were too far away from civilisation now for him to get a job. And the emotional abuse started ramping up. I somehow managed to find us yet another place. I found him a job. Things were okay for a year or so then he got fired...again and now no umemployment. By now I had a better very stable job in healthcare, got certified, (not bad for only a highschool education)was starting to do well for myself and the emotional abuse escalated. Then the verbal. It got physical once where he grabbed me by the throat. Taped a receipt for condoms to the door (it was for my teenager but my ex made it sound like cheating.) He would take the money from our joint checking and move it to an account with only his name. He wouldn't clean. He began to hoard. He would not go to doctors. He stopped sleeping and would wake me up to lecture me for hours. I went to work crying and exhausted most days. I had a major surgery and had no help at home. Then the landlord fight. And I could not take it. Was I wrong? 

I thought my moving would wake him up. Change. I would get back with him probably if he would just work! But no he won't. He doesnt pay child support and I havent asked. I let him have our youngest every single weekend. I don't know what to do.


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## Trident

Erudite said:


> Was I wrong?


When the Titanic went down and it became obvious there weren't enough lifeboats to save everyone, the women and children got first dibs on the lifeboats.


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## GusPolinski

Erudite said:


> A little back story. I moved out with my children 5 months ago. My ex was in a dispute with the landlord at the time. I had been paying all the rent as my ex was unemployed with no benefits for 3 years. I never once missed a payment nor missed a payment for untilities. Previously we lost our own house and evicted from our next home due to my husbands chronic unemployment. I found a good job, got certified in my field, and seemed to be able to keep things afloat. Even during covid. Then my ex got into it with the landlord anx even though their was no qualm with me or the children wanted us out because of him. It was the final straw. In addition to years of physical, emotional, and financial abuse he was getting us thrown out...again.
> 
> Before we could be evicted I managed to find my own place and moved. This new place is temporary. Money is tight, but rent gets paid on time etc etc. I told him he was not welcome to live in my new home. My ex had no choice but to stay in the old place and fought the land lord in court. He lost. He is appealing. He is still not working. I do not know what his finances look like. I pay his cell bill because it was a family plan under my name and I want the kids to be able to contact their Dad.
> 
> It has been 5 months since I moved. I feel incredibly guilty. He has had a couple of interviews but things haven't panned out for him. He resents me. He has lost weight, been drinking more. I don't now what to do.Do I offer to let him stay with us? ( I don't want to) Do I let him become homless? And if I do that what to do about visitation? Any advice would be welcome. Thank you.


Booze ain’t cheap. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## karmagoround

GusPolinski said:


> Booze ain’t cheap.


+ Lost productivity, not on his game.


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## Erudite

I don't know how to use the quote feature but thank you for the titanic analogy. It makes me feel better. You asked about filing for the divorce. At first I thought he would have an epiphany but as months went by I knew he wouldn't and then he was going tocourt for the eviction and he was threatening to kill himself. Plus I figured if I ticked him off now he would make me pay later and try to get my youngest from me.


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## Rob_1

Erudite said:


> I do want to be fair to him and own my faults. I was a SAHM for over ten years. He cycled through jobs ( read fired or quit) like candy but I made it work. I redid his resume for him, found jobs for him, dressed him for work and interviews. Kept the house clean, made lunch for him every day. Took care of our kids. I, we, had a pretty good life.Things really went downhill fast. The times between jobs got longer and longer. I got depressed. Things got worse. I let myself go. I realised I needed to work but as a SAHM I had no experience so my jobs did not pay well enough to keep the house from being foreclosed. I had to pay for daycare even though he wasn't working. I had no clue about public assistance at the time.
> 
> Then I found us a place that would take us with poor credit. It was too expensive for me, even working full time. We lost that place too. I had started having nightmares. Anxiety attacks. High blood pressure. Drove an uninspected car for years. He claimed we were too far away from civilisation now for him to get a job. And the emotional abuse started ramping up. I somehow managed to find us yet another place. I found him a job. Things were okay for a year or so then he got fired...again and now no umemployment. By now I had a better very stable job in healthcare, got certified, (not bad for only a highschool education)was starting to do well for myself and the emotional abuse escalated. Then the verbal. It got physical once where he grabbed me by the throat. Taped a receipt for condoms to the door (it was for my teenager but my ex made it sound like cheating.) He would take the money from our joint checking and move it to an account with only his name. He wouldn't clean. He began to hoard. He would not go to doctors. He stopped sleeping and would wake me up to lecture me for hours. I went to work crying and exhausted most days. I had a major surgery and had no help at home. Then the landlord fight. And I could not take it. Was I wrong?
> 
> I thought my moving would wake him up. Change. I would get back with him probably if he would just work! But no he won't. He doesnt pay child support and I havent asked. I let him have our youngest every single weekend. I don't know what to do.


Come on @Erudite, stop with the guilt. If there's a dude that deserves not second thoughts that's your pathetic excuse of a man Ex.


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## Erudite

Gus, I know he is selling some of his stuff and buys bottom shelf booze but thats all I know of his finances. I asked for help for my sons band rentals and said he couldnt afford it.


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## karmagoround

Erudite said:


> I feel incredibly guilty. He has had a couple of interviews but things haven't panned out for him. He resents me. He has lost weight, been drinking more. I Any advice would be welcome. Thank you.


I propped my ex up for years. I had primary residence and needed her to have something decent to live in for visitation. It wasn't alamony, and it wasnt all the time but it adds up to a lot of dough. After a decade of that happy horseshit, the kids were grown, i quit helping, and she found a way to make it in her own.


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## Erudite

Karmagoround, do you think I should at least help him search for a place to live then? My oldest is 19 so not an issue but the youngest has a long way to go. I dont want him to visit his Dad in the shelter. I also dont want dad to use him as a crutch. I keep him with me for school but his Dad takes him every weekend. He lovez him more than me I think and often asks why I am so mean to Dad.


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## Erudite

Thank you Rob, I have journals full of wwhy I was justified butvthe guilt remains. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he is the only man I have ever in my whole life been intimate with. Or just low self esteem. My therapist is working on that....


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## jlg07

Erudite said:


> I don't know how to use the quote feature but thank you for the titanic analogy. It makes me feel better. You asked about filing for the divorce. At first I thought he would have an epiphany but as months went by I knew he wouldn't and then he was going tocourt for the eviction and he was threatening to kill himself. Plus I figured if I ticked him off now he would make me pay later and try to get my youngest from me.


You had coddled/enabled him for far too long doing everything you could to keep your family, but HE didn't do his part. HE should have been supporting the family. Why the chronic leaving of jobs for him? I'm SURE it was someone else's fault.

Look, he is an adult, and capable of making his OWN decisions for HIS LIFE. It's not on you if he makes bad decisions.


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## Prodigal

Let him hit bottom. If that means he becomes homeless, so be it. Don't enable him - you've already done that and you see what that got you. I was married to an alcoholic who was chronically unemployed due to getting fired more times than I can count. 

Feel guilty if you must, but let your husband live with the consequences of his choices. Don't bail him out.

My ex ultimately drank himself to death. And when he died, he was out of work - again. His brother was footing the bills at the end. Better him than me.


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## Marc878

Erudite said:


> Karmagoround, do you think I should at least help him search for a place to live then? My oldest is 19 so not an issue but the youngest has a long way to go. I dont want him to visit his Dad in the shelter. I also dont want dad to use him as a crutch. I keep him with me for school but his Dad takes him every weekend. He lovez him more than me I think and often asks why I am so mean to Dad.


He made his bed let him figure it out. People like this will just drag you down with them. Wake up here!!!


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## Diana7

You need to concentrate on yourself and the children. This man is pathetic and abusive. 
You aren't his mum and he isn't a child. If he wants to get his life together then he must act like an adult and do it himself. You have enabled his bad behaviour up till now and kept him dependant on you. 
Get that divorce started and tell the lawyer about the abuse.


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## Sfort

Erudite said:


> I don't know how to use the quote feature


There are two ways to quote. First, just hit the "Reply" button under the post you're responding to. Second, as I have done here, highlight the specific text you want to quote. When you do, there will be a pop up with "Reply" and "Quote" that's floating near the highlighted text. Click on "Reply". It may be harder to do on a phone. I haven't tried it.


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## Erudite

jlg, yes it was always someone elses fault. Not getting paid what he was worth. Expecting special treatment, not getting it. Breaking rules. Etc etc

Alot of people have talked about coddling and enabling. I can see it for what it was/is now but for years I was terrified, not of getting hurt physically so much, but that if I did one wrong thing HE would leave ME! I know that sounds ass backwards now but when I was in the middle of it? Those lectures he gave me were constant. I was/am in this cognitive dissonance battle. He would tell me that if I left him I would have nothing. He tells me now that I chose to break up the family and if it wasn't for him I would have nothing. He still makes me feel like I owe him.

Prodigal, I wish I had the strength of your convictions. You appear to have gone through so much and don't feel guilty. I wish I could muster those feelings. I wish I could get angry. I deserve to be angry! Yet all I feel is extreme sadness, guilt, and pity. Not to mention exhaustion. I fell asleep last night right in the middle of our conversation.


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## LisaDiane

Erudite said:


> Thank you Rob, I have journals full of wwhy I was justified butvthe guilt remains. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he is the only man I have ever in my whole life been intimate with. Or just low self esteem. My therapist is working on that....


What you are feeling is codependency, and it's a very common reaction to living with an unpredictable, self-centered partner for all these years. You haven't been able to depend on him to meet your needs at all, neither emotional nor financial, and to cope, you developed an unhealthy attachment to him. It is similar to living with a partner who is addicted to drugs or alcohol.

Don't worry about what the first poster replied to you - your actions are not only legal, they are justified. We aren't legally bound to live with a spouse who is ruining our lives (or even one who is wonderful)...he is an ADULT, not a minor. You are absolutely allowed to leave anytime you want. Definitely talk to a few lawyers for advice about how to separate and divorce in the best way FOR YOU and your kids. 

I am going through something similar with my STBX -- since our relationship ended (before I filed for divorce), he has become a completely different person and has made some of the worst decisions a person can make...and watching him do it and begin to suffer the consequences has been brutally sad and stressful. But I am determined NOT to save him from those consequences!! I am trying to stay detached and unemotional about it all, because that is what is best for ME...but it's so hard.


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## oldshirt

You feeling sorry and wanting to help this guy is like a chemo and radiation patient feeling sorry for the cancer as it is breaking up and shrinking from chemo and radiation. 

He is the disease and your (AND YOUR KID’S) survival depend on getting him out of your system. 

Your therapy is to put as much separation between you and him as humanly possible.


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## Erudite

LisaDiane said:


> What you are feeling is codependency, and it's a very common reaction to living with an unpredictable, self-centered partner for all these years. You haven't been able to depend on him to meet your needs at all, neither emotional nor financial, and to cope, you developed an unhealthy attachment to him. It is similar to living with a partner who is addicted to drugs or alcohol.
> 
> Don't worry about what the first poster replied to you - your actions are not only legal, they are justified. We aren't legally bound to live with a spouse who is ruining our lives (or even one who is wonderful)...he is an ADULT, not a minor. You are absolutely allowed to leave anytime you want. Definitely talk to a few lawyers for advice about how to separate and divorce in the best way FOR YOU and your kids.
> 
> I am going through something similar with my STBX -- since our relationship ended (before I filed for divorce), he has become a completely different person and has made some of the worst decisions a person can make...and watching him do it and begin to suffer the consequences has been brutally sad and stressful. But I am determined NOT to save him from those consequences!! I am trying to stay detached and unemotional about it all, because that is what is best for ME...but it's so hard.


Yes! This is how I feel as well. I also like to look at the positives since I moved. My kids are better emotionally. I know where my money is going. I have a stable job, and have built a support network. And I didnt have help from family or friends to do it. I had isolated myself due to embarassment. I wish I could just turn off my emotions once in a while.


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## SunCMars

karmagoround said:


> I propped my ex up for years. I had primary residence and needed her to have something decent to live in for visitation. It wasn't alamony, and it wasnt all the time but it adds up to a lot of dough. After a decade of that happy horseshit, the kids were grown, i quit helping, and she found a way to make it in her own.


Yes, at that point, your wife had no choice. 
She had to pull herself up or be impaled, dying on and at that point.
..................................................................................................

Soon, Erudite's broken half will have no choice.
It is that downward spiral, first started by his depression, accelerated by the alcohol, that other depression maker.

As mentioned, as feared, the streets of America are littered with broken souls, living in makeshift tents.
That is the [next to the last] bottom.
Final bottom is death and an unmarked grave burial.

There is no real safety net.
The progressive-liberal courts and mindset won't permit it.


_Are Dee-_


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## SunCMars

Erudite said:


> jlg, yes it was always someone elses fault. Not getting paid what he was worth. Expecting special treatment, not getting it. Breaking rules. Etc etc
> 
> Alot of people have talked about coddling and enabling. I can see it for what it was/is now but for years I was terrified, not of getting hurt physically so much, but that if I did one wrong thing HE would leave ME! I know that sounds ass backwards now but when I was in the middle of it? Those lectures he gave me were constant. I was/am in this cognitive dissonance battle. He would tell me that if I left him I would have nothing. He tells me now that I chose to break up the family and if it wasn't for him I would have nothing. He still makes me feel like I owe him.
> 
> Prodigal, I wish I had the strength of your convictions. You appear to have gone through so much and don't feel guilty. I wish I could muster those feelings. I wish I could get angry. I deserve to be angry! Yet all I feel is extreme sadness, guilt, and pity. Not to mention exhaustion. I fell asleep last night right in the middle of our conversation.


Kindness and empathy are your contributions to the world.
Thank you.

Kindness is also your personal anchor.
Find a balance, or you will anxiously falter, and tip-over.


_King Brian-_


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## Erudite

oldshirt said:


> You feeling sorry and wanting to help this guy is like a chemo and radiation patient feeling sorry for the cancer as it is breaking up and shrinking from chemo and radiation.
> 
> He is the disease and your (AND YOUR KID’S) survival depend on getting him out of your system.
> 
> Your therapy is to put as much separation between you and him as humanly possible.


Yeah, he is not good at respecting boundaries. I only answer his texts if they relate directly to my son. He keeps mentioning marriage counseling. I still love him but I refused. Which was of course another negative thing to use against me. Plus my youngest son blames me, not his father, for breaking us up to. I try to remember he is just a kid but..well you know.


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## Erudite

SunCMars said:


> Yes, at that point, your wife had no choice.
> She had to pull herself up or be impaled, dying on and at that point.
> ..................................................................................................
> 
> Soon, Erudite's broken half will have no choice.
> It is that downward spiral, first started by his depression, accelerated by the alcohol, that other depression maker.
> 
> As mentioned, as feared, the streets of America are littered with broken souls, living in makeshift tents.
> That is the [next to the last] bottom.
> Final bottom is death and an unmarked grave burial.
> 
> There is no real safety net.
> The progressive-liberal courts and mindset won't permit it.
> 
> 
> _Are Dee-_


I don't know where the balancing point is. Did I mention he has raging ADD and he's on medication for it. Depression, alcohol, add..its hard not to feel sorry for him...


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## oldshirt

Erudite said:


> Yeah, he is not good at respecting boundaries. I only answer his texts if they relate directly to my son. He keeps mentioning marriage counseling. I still love him but I refused. Which was of course another negative thing to use against me. Plus my youngest son blames me, not his father, for breaking us up to. I try to remember he is just a kid but..well you know.


Marriage counseling can help normal, decent improve their communication and conflict resolution skills if they are having trouble expressing their needs and boundaries with each other. 

MC does NOT change one's character or turn a bad person into a good one. It does not get a chronically unemployed person a job or make them into a good provider. It does not turn an abuser into a nice person. It does not make a drunk stop drinking. 

He is simply a dud, he isn't any good. MC is not going to transform him into a kind, sober, hard working provider.


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## Erudite

oldshirt said:


> Marriage counseling can help normal, decent improve their communication and conflict resolution skills if they are having trouble expressing their needs and boundaries with each other.
> 
> MC does NOT change one's character or turn a bad person into a good one. It does not get a chronically unemployed person a job or make them into a good provider. It does not turn an abuser into a nice person. It does not make a drunk stop drinking.
> 
> He is simply a dud, he isn't any good. MC is not going to transform him into a kind, sober, hard working provider.


Logically that is how I see it. I am trying to rely on logic not emotions. Emotions tell me I invested 20 years, half my life, into this marriage don't I owe it to us to try everything?


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## oldshirt

Erudite said:


> Logically that is how I see it. I am trying to rely on logic not emotions. Emotions tell me I invested 20 years, half my life, into this marriage don't I owe it to us to try everything?


So you haven't already tried and endured for 20 years??

You need to look up "The Sunken Cost Fallacy."


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## LisaDiane

Erudite said:


> ...don't I owe it to us to try everything?


That depends on what you want the rest of your life to be like.

HE WILL NOT CHANGE. This is who he is, right now. Is that what YOU want, is that what a healthy, happy relationship is for YOU...is he the kind of partner you want? Not who he "could be"...but who HE IS.


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## LisaDiane

Erudite said:


> Yeah, he is not good at respecting boundaries. I only answer his texts if they relate directly to my son. He keeps mentioning marriage counseling. I still love him but I refused. Which was of course another negative thing to use against me. Plus my youngest son blames me, not his father, for breaking us up to. I try to remember he is just a kid but..well you know.


No, he certainly isn't good at boundaries...but neither are you. You keep taking HIS problems and making them YOURS. 
You keep taking responsibility for things that are HIS responsibility. You struggle to stand up for yourself. You torment yourself with guilt.

Really, look up CODEPENDENCY. You need to learn how to establish and maintain strong boundaries, so you can be a good example for your kids. Your son feels bad for his father because he is also codependent, but children are supposed to be. YOU are NOT. You need to learn that YOU deserve better than this, and learn to advocate for your own needs in a relationship, without having to constantly GIVE to others, without ever receiving anything you need back.


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## Openminded

Want to know long I tried everything? Forty-five years. Did it help? No, it didn’t. It was an excuse not to do what I knew I needed to do and that was to get out and move on. You can always find excuses.


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## SunCMars

Erudite said:


> I don't know where the balancing point is. Did I mention he has raging ADD and he's on medication for it. Depression, alcohol, add..its hard not to feel sorry for him...


Do feel sorry for him, do not die on the cross for him, this SAD mortal.

Then again, who am I to deny a Saint?
What Earthly *person has that authority?


*Yes, those firm, and those tempered, have it easier in these painful deciding matters.
Saints, they will never be.

Saints live for others, their own matters, matter not.
Their matter is the stuff of sacrifice, the rest of Mankind seem that sacrilege.



_SunCMars-_ A warrior and Philosopher, never to be that Saint.


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## Erudite

Openminded said:


> Want to know long I tried everything? Forty-five years. Did it help? No, it didn’t. It was an excuse not to do what I knew I needed to do and that was to get out and move on. You can always find excuses.


45 years??? Please, tell me you are happier now and how long did it take for you to move on after? I keep telling myself its only been 5 months. I am trying not to throw myself a pity party ( why is that so easy btw). I got a raise at a a jpb I enjoy. I have a great relationship with my boys. I am getting my finances under control and rebuilding my credit slowly. My youngest son loves his new school and has made friends. I go to therapy. If I can do it why can't he?


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## Erudite

SunCMars said:


> Do feel sorry for him, do not die on the cross for him, this SAD mortal.
> 
> Then again, who am I to deny a Saint?
> What Earthly *person has that authority?
> 
> 
> *Yes, those firm, and those tempered, have it easier in these painful deciding matters.
> Saints, they will never be.
> 
> Saints live for others, their own matters, matter not.
> Their matter is the stuff of sacrifice, the rest of Mankind seem that sacrilege.
> 
> 
> 
> _SunCMars-_ A warrior and Philosopher, never to be that Saint.


It seems so ruthless to be honest. I looked up the sunken cost fallacy. How apt that is! Sometimes when I feel like caving I say I am doing it for the boys. But I did what I did for them too. Oy!


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## Openminded

Erudite said:


> 45 years??? Please, tell me you are happier now and how long did it take for you to move on after? I keep telling myself its only been 5 months. I am trying not to throw myself a pity party ( why is that so easy btw). I got a raise at a a jpb I enjoy. I have a great relationship with my boys. I am getting my finances under control and rebuilding my credit slowly. My youngest son loves his new school and has made friends. I go to therapy. If I can do it why can't he?


Much happier. Much, much, much. I moved on fairly quickly once I made the decision to go. But everyone is different so the time it took me may not be the time it takes you. Plus, you’re very much an empath and I’m not so much. By the time I left, I was angry at all the time I had wasted waiting for him to grow up (never happened). My one regret is that I waited so long to get out. Life is so much easier now. It can be for you too.


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## Erudite

Openminded said:


> Much happier. Much, much, much. I moved on fairly quickly once I made the decision to go. But everyone is different so the time it took me may not be the time it takes you. Plus, you’re very much an empath and I’m not so much. By the time I left, I was angry at all the time I had wasted waiting for him to grow up (never happened). My one regret is that I waited so long to get out. Life is so much easier now. It can be for you too.


You sound like my oldest son. He cares about people but he has told me that I need to toughen up when it comes to his father. I asked him if he feels sorry for his father. Nope. Does he feel guilty? Nope. He said before the break up he was angry and depressed but feels better now. He is pretty wise for being so young. I have heard other people say they moved on quickly, too. Its a bit embarrassing to be so stuck.

When I left I had no hope. I reached out for help not expecting to get it. When the opportunity came I just new if I didn't take it I would stuck forever. So I took it. It opened another can of worms but better that then the slow death I guess.


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## Openminded

Erudite said:


> You sound like my oldest son. He cares about people but he has told me that I need to toughen up when it comes to his father. I asked him if he feels sorry for his father. Nope. Does he feel guilty? Nope. He said before the break up he was angry and depressed but feels better now. He is pretty wise for being so young. I have heard other people say they moved on quickly, too. Its a bit embarrassing to be so stuck.
> 
> When I left I had no hope. I reached out for help not expecting to get it. When the opportunity came I just new if I didn't take it I would stuck forever. So I took it. It opened another can of worms but better that then the slow death I guess.


Have to say, I agree with your son.😉


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## D0nnivain

Erudite said:


> I feel incredibly guilty. * * * .Do I offer to let him stay with us? ( I don't want to) Do I let him become homless? And if I do that what to do about visitation?


There is nothing to feel guilty about. Your EX has been a deadbeat for a long time. There is such a labor shortage right now that anybody with a pulse can get a job. He doesn't want a job. He likes being a freeloader. Don't keep enabling him & throwing good money after bad. It's sweet of you to provide the phone so the kids can talk to dad. You have done enough.


----------



## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> Emotions tell me I invested 20 years, half my life, into this marriage don't I owe it to us to try everything?


What was the return on your investment? Your husband is still an emotionally-stunted deadbeat. The guilt you feel has to do with YOU, not him. It's the voice of codependency trying to get you back into the enabling role. Talk to your counselor about this issue so you can resolve it and move on.


----------



## TBT

You run the risk of joining him as he hits bottom if you stay in this mindset.


----------



## Erudite

I am getting a grasp on this. At least in so far as I am attempting to ignore these feelings and acknowledge them to be irrational. I only see my therapist twice a month. I wanted to thank all of you for shoring up my resolve and reminding me I am not crazy. I am doing the right thing. I am also trying to remind myself that I am not doing him any favors either by falling into old patterns or giving him false hope.


----------



## SunCMars

Openminded said:


> Want to know long I tried everything? Forty-five years. Did it help? No, it didn’t. It was an excuse not to do what I knew I needed to do and that was to get out and move on. You can always find excuses.


I know your name, I know your claim.

You were that late arrival.


----------



## SunCMars

You can check to see what services are available for him from your state and in your community.

Food stamps and Meals on Wheels, rent assistance.

Is he a Vet?


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## Erudite

SunCMars said:


> You can check to see what services are available for him from your state and in your community.
> 
> Food stamps and Meals on Wheels, rent assistance.
> 
> Is he a Vet?


He was a Marine long before he met me. I was 20. He was 30. He would never talk about it. Just like he would never talk about previous girlfriends. I know he wasn't lying about joining but I don't know how long he stayed in. I don't know anything including why or how he was discharged. I feel like if it was a positive experience he would have talked about it. I am guessing it wasn't.

I can put him in touch with my resource person but would it be too little too late? Housing is so tight where I live. There is only like 1.7% opening rate. Waiting lists are long and rents are high. Where do I draw the line?


----------



## MattMatt

Erudite said:


> Karmagoround, do you think I should at least help him search for a place to live then? My oldest is 19 so not an issue but the youngest has a long way to go. I dont want him to visit his Dad in the shelter. I also dont want dad to use him as a crutch. I keep him with me for school but his Dad takes him every weekend. He lovez him more than me I think and often asks why I am so mean to Dad.


You helped him find jobs and he lost them all. If you help him find homes, guess what? He'll lose them, too.

Get your youngest into counselling as that might help him.


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## lifeistooshort

So a drunk who can't keep himself housed is somehow going to convince a judge to take your youngest from you to send to him?

Cmon....you can't really believe that.

And what does marriage counseling have to do with him being a drunk and a bum? It's just an opportunity to ******** you into continuing to support him.

Why do you suppose a 30 year old man sniffed put a 20 year old? Hint: much younger women put up with a lot more.


----------



## Erudite

MattMatt said:


> You helped him find jobs and he lost them all. If you help him find homes, guess what? He'll lose them, too.
> 
> Get your youngest into counselling as that might help him.


I know. He now will have 2 evictions and a foreclosure against him. At this point all I can see is camper on a friends land or couch surfing. I know now I would win in court but years of abuse has taught me that if he even percieves me as making his life difficult he will make me pay in some way. If he sees our son as his last weapon against me and his only reason for being alive? There is no telling how far he would go.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> So a drunk who can't keep himself housed is somehow going to convince a judge to take your youngest from you to send to him?
> 
> Cmon....you can't really believe that.
> 
> And what does marriage counseling have to do with him being a drunk and a bum? It's just an opportunity to ****** you into continuing to support him.
> 
> Why do you suppose a 30 year old man sniffed put a 20 year old? Hint: much younger women put up with a lot more.
> 
> Everytime there was a low or major setback I would think NOW he will wake up. NOW marriage counseling would work. But it won't. It's not logical. He is wicked smart. MENSA level ( really he is a MENSA member) and when we fight I come away feeling tongue tied, stupid.


----------



## Erudite

Whoops!


----------



## D0nnivain

Erudite said:


> He was a Marine long before he met me.
> 
> I can put him in touch with my resource person but would it be too little too late? Housing is so tight where I live. There is only like 1.7% opening rate. Waiting lists are long and rents are high. Where do I draw the line?


You sound like a caring person but I also see a lot of co-dependency in here. Take yourself to an Al-Anon meeting. It's a support group for people who love alcoholics. They will help you understand him more & your role in enabling him. 

If he was a Marine, there are lots of resources available to him. It sounds like he might have out of control undiagnosed PTSD. Ask him for a copy of his DD-214. You can't get anything done through the VA without this document. If he doesn't have it, go to the VA's website www.va.gov & find the form he will need to sign to get a copy from them. Request Your Military Service Records | Veterans Affairs (va.gov) Make sure you only use the official .gov website. There are tons of scammers out there who claim to help vets. Steer clear. 

Once you have the DD-214 help him fill out claims for benefits. Your children will be entitled to money paid directly to you from the VA if you can prove a service connected disability, like PTSD. If things are as bad as he claims, he might be eligible for an unemployability claim. Even if you can't him benefits for an injury, the VA still has programs that will help him get housing & possibly a job. The resources are there if you know where to look.

I suppose there is a chance he lied to you about his service but I am hoping if you find that out, it will make you angry enough to walk away with a clear conscience. 

You draw the line at giving him more money or a place to live.


----------



## oldshirt

D0nnivain said:


> You sound like a caring person but I also see a lot of co-dependency in here. Take yourself to an Al-Anon meeting. It's a support group for people who love alcoholics. They will help you understand him more & your role in enabling him.
> 
> If he was a Marine, there are lots of resources available to him. It sounds like he might have out of control undiagnosed PTSD. Ask him for a copy of his DD-214. You can't get anything done through the VA without this document. If he doesn't have it, go to the VA's website www.va.gov & find the form he will need to sign to get a copy from them. Request Your Military Service Records | Veterans Affairs (va.gov) Make sure you only use the official .gov website. There are tons of scammers out there who claim to help vets. Steer clear.
> 
> Once you have the DD-214 help him fill out claims for benefits. Your children will be entitled to money paid directly to you from the VA if you can prove a service connected disability, like PTSD. If things are as bad as he claims, he might be eligible for an unemployability claim. Even if you can't him benefits for an injury, the VA still has programs that will help him get housing & possibly a job. The resources are there if you know where to look.


This is all telling her how to help him. 

She's already been doing that for 20 years and this is what it has gotten her. 

HE needs to be the one doing all this stuff. HE is the one that needs to straighten himself up. 

She needs to be spending her time and energies on taking care of herself and her kids.


----------



## Erudite

D0nnivain said:


> You sound like a caring person but I also see a lot of co-dependency in here. Take yourself to an Al-Anon meeting. It's a support group for people who love alcoholics. They will help you understand him more & your role in enabling him.
> 
> If he was a Marine, there are lots of resources available to him. It sounds like he might have out of control undiagnosed PTSD. Ask him for a copy of his DD-214. You can't get anything done through the VA without this document. If he doesn't have it, go to the VA's website www.va.gov & find the form he will need to sign to get a copy from them. Request Your Military Service Records | Veterans Affairs (va.gov) Make sure you only use the official .gov website. There are tons of scammers out there who claim to help vets. Steer clear.
> 
> Once you have the DD-214 help him fill out claims for benefits. Your children will be entitled to money paid directly to you from the VA if you can prove a service connected disability, like PTSD. If things are as bad as he claims, he might be eligible for an unemployability claim. Even if you can't him benefits for an injury, the VA still has programs that will help him get housing & possibly a job. The resources are there if you know where to look.
> 
> I suppose there is a chance he lied to you about his service but I am hoping if you find that out, it will make you angry enough to walk away with a clear conscience.
> 
> You draw the line at giving him more money or a place to live.


Honestly given his track record I wonder if he was dishonorabley discharged. Does that sound awful?


----------



## SunCMars

> He is wicked smart. MENSA level ( really he is a MENSA member) and when we fight I come away feeling tongue tied, stupid.


This is a primary reason for his failing in life. (add in alcohol)
Being too clever (by two) paralyzes one.

Arrogance, and lack of empathy often accompanies genius, think Steve Jobs.

Having too many answers makes it hard to choose the better.
He quickly gets bored with mundane things, and jobs.

Those found smartest are often the ones lacking good emotional health.

Unless, he loses his smarts, he will not change.
Note: Senility is never a blessing.


----------



## LisaDiane

Erudite said:


> Honestly given his track record I wonder if he was dishonorabley discharged. Does that sound awful?


I agree that you should find a local Al-Anon group and attend a few meetings...I think it will help you realize where your responsibilities to him END and you will get support and understanding, and a new way to view your role in his life.

He is an ADULT. He also is genius-level intelligent. That means that he has all the resources he needs to create the life he wants. Which then means, he IS living the life he wants and will most likely continue to sabotage any of your efforts to "help" him or support him or to make things "better" for him.

He has NO excuse for his struggles except for HIMSELF and his choices. You cannot fix that for him. It won't work, and he won't let it.


----------



## SunCMars

Erudite said:


> Honestly given his track record I wonder if he was dishonorably discharged. Does that sound awful?


No, not at all.

The Marines are the _Few and the Proud._
They get rid of those who create_ Good Order _problems.

All the Services lose ~10% of their personnel every year.

Very few _Dishonorable Discharges_ are given out. 
They do not want to burn people who wash out.

Some are medical, some administrative (not completing training).

With his temperament, I would suspect a _General Discharge,_ maybe a _Medical Discharge.


Are Dee-_


----------



## Cooper

I understand you feel an obligation to the guy, but you need to let that go. You can only do so much for others before you end up just cheating yourself. Your energy and resources need to be focused on you and your child living the best life you can.

One of the greatest gifts I have ever given myself was telling my ex "you are no longer my responsibility". My vote is you distance yourself as much as possible.


----------



## Prodigal

My drunk, chronically-out-of-work husband had me convinced of that I'd "pay" too. Guess what? I got ANGRY. And I refused to back down when he started making noise. And, I assure you, he made lots of noise! Meh. He folded like a house of cards when he realized his bullying tactics were not bothering me.

You are codependent. You are dealing with a mindset of guilt and fear. Time to get mad and disgusted with your husband. He needs resources to find a place to live, work, access to food, etc? He has a brain and a phone. Let him make calls. You've enabled long enough. Stop doing that immediately.


----------



## Openminded

People like him (users) look for people like you (enablers). And I’m speaking as one who enabled my husband, and made his life very easy, for a long time.


----------



## Erudite

Prodigal said:


> My drunk, chronically-out-of-work husband had me convinced of that I'd "pay" too. Guess what? I got ANGRY. And I refused to back down when he started making noise. And, I assure you, he made lots of noise! Meh. He folded like a house of cards when he realized his bullying tactics were not bothering me.
> 
> You are codependent. You are dealing with a mindset of guilt and fear. Time to get mad and disgusted with your husband. He needs resources to find a place to live, work, access to food, etc? He has a brain and a phone. Let him make calls. You've enabled long enough. Stop doing that immediately.


I try to be angry. I really really do. I want to be angry. I can only muster up frustration and annoyance on a good day. I am sure it is depression. But there also this quiet desperation to not be a failure for my boys.


----------



## Erudite

LisaDiane said:


> I agree that you should find a local Al-Anon group and attend a few meetings...I think it will help you realize where your responsibilities to him END and you will get support and understanding, and a new way to view your role in his life.
> 
> He is an ADULT. He also is genius-level intelligent. That means that he has all the resources he needs to create the life he wants. Which then means, he IS living the life he wants and will most likely continue to sabotage any of your efforts to "help" him or support him or to make things "better" for him.
> 
> He has NO excuse for his struggles except for HIMSELF and his choices. You cannot fix that for him. It won't work, and he won't let it.


He took the MENSA test on a whim. He was drunk when he took it. And passed. He thinks and processes faster than me. I know he is capable but at the same time know hes not. I can't disagree with what everyone is saying, I know, but is letting my kids watch their father suffer the right thing to do when I have the capability to stop it or at least lessen it?

I promise I am not letting him move in. I hsve no extra money to give him. Honestly I don't have the time. I worked 6 days snd over 50 hrs last week, but I know I can do more because I have done more. The exhaustion is killing me.


----------



## Erudite

Openminded said:


> People like him (users) look for people like you (enablers). And I’m speaking as one who enabled my husband, and made his life very easy, for a long time.


 Why? Why am I like this this??? Did he turn me into this? Or am I just flawed in some way? I do know. I am an expert at conflict avoidance.


----------



## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> ut there also this quiet desperation to not be a failure for my boys.


How are you being a failure? You are providing your kids with a decent place to live, you hold a job, you put food on the table. I doubt drunk boy could do that; in fact, he's already shown he can't do that. Listen, your kids may even decide to side with hubs - for now. But they are going to see what a great job you did standing up to a deadbeat and not tolerating crap.

Consider that for a moment. Have you ever considered Al-Anon? Since COVID began, they've switched to mostly online meetings. I started going in 1996. Saved my life. Was invaluable in helping me work through my raging codependency. Allowed me to release the guilt, shame, and fear that held me captive to a drunk for years. 

P.S. - It took me longer to get it than most. I married another drunk after I ditched the first loser. Yep, I was that damn stupid. The second one died 6.5 years ago. And today my life is great, not to mention drunk-free.


----------



## Erudite

SunCMars said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> The Marines are the _Few and the Proud._
> They get rid of those who create_ Good Order _problems.
> 
> All the Services lose ~10% of their personnel every year.
> 
> Very few _Dishonorable Discharges_ are given out.
> They do not want to burn people who wash out.
> 
> Some are medical, some administrative (not completing training).
> 
> With his temperament, I would suspect a _General Discharge,_ maybe a _Medical Discharge.
> 
> 
> Are Dee-_


I just assumed that he wasn't eligible for some reason. I know he passed bootcamp. But if he does have this resource why does he refuse it? I just want to be done.


----------



## Erudite

Prodigal said:


> How are you being a failure? You are providing your kids with a decent place to live, you hold a job, you put food on the table. I doubt drunk boy could do that; in fact, he's already shown he can't do that. Listen, your kids may even decide to side with hubs - for now. But they are going to see what a great job you did standing up to a deadbeat and not tolerating crap.
> 
> Consider that for a moment. Have you ever considered Al-Anon? Since COVID began, they've switched to mostly online meetings. I started going in 1996. Saved my life. Was invaluable in helping me work through my raging codependency. Allowed me to release the guilt, shame, and fear that held me captive to a drunk for years.
> 
> P.S. - It took me longer to get it than most. I married another drunk after I ditched the first loser. Yep, I was that damn stupid. The second one died 6.5 years ago. And today my life is great, not to mention drunk-free.


I feel like a failure. My whole life was so wrapped up in him. My depression, I gained weight, didn't educate myself properly. If I don't do this then what good am I? No one wants a middle age woman like me with a life like mine. At least no one who isn't like him. Lets be real. Hell I even managed to get an online mesagge board annoyed with me.


----------



## MattMatt

Erudite said:


> I feel like a failure. My whole life was so wrapped up in him. My depression, I gained weight, didn't educate myself properly. If I don't do this then what good am I? No one wants a middle age woman like me with a life like mine. At least no one who isn't like him. Lets be real. Hell I even managed to get an online mesagge board annoyed with me.


He failed you.


----------



## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> My depression, I gained weight, didn't educate myself properly. If I don't do this then what good am I? No one wants a middle age woman like me with a life like mine. At least no one who isn't like him.


Yeah, so what???? Are you going to wither up and die without a man? So go on a diet. Take some classes. Look, you are now in the process of looking at what you don't have rather than what you have. If you want to sit on your pity pot and throw a massive poor-me party, go for it. No skin off my nose.

But I lived it and I survived it and I thrived. Hell, I don't have a man in my life. Last time I looked, I didn't feel like an empty husk of a woman. The problem you have is you pin your self-esteem and self-validation on other people. 

And you're right .... you will NEVER find a man of integrity and character with your I'm-a-colossal-loser mindset. Get busy living or get busy dying. Your life. Your choice.


----------



## Erudite

Point taken.


----------



## LisaDiane

Erudite said:


> He took the MENSA test on a whim. He was drunk when he took it. And passed. He thinks and processes faster than me. I know he is capable but at the same time know hes not. I can't disagree with what everyone is saying, I know, but is letting my kids watch their father suffer the right thing to do when I have the capability to stop it or at least lessen it?
> 
> I promise I am not letting him move in. I hsve no extra money to give him. Honestly I don't have the time. I worked 6 days snd over 50 hrs last week, but I know I can do more because I have done more. The exhaustion is killing me.


I believe it's very important for your kids to see their father's consequences and their mother's strength in leaving him to them. The answer is YES, it IS the right thing to do to leave him to deal with what HE has created for himself.

You tell your son that you love his father, and you've hoped and waited for years for him to make better choices...but HE is refusing and you cannot live like that anymore. Tell him that you are not going to let anyone hurt you or your children, not even their father. And that you hate to see him struggle, but that's from HIS OWN choices, and so it's NOT your job to "rescue" him from his consequences...and that you are hoping he will now choose to better himself, but whatever he does is HIS choice.

Here is what you keep missing -- YOU are NOT responsible for HIM. What you are struggling with are BOUNDARIES. 
Setting boundaries makes you uncomfortable, because you are codependent. That doesn't make you "bad" or a failure or hopeless...it makes you typical of someone who has lived in a relationship like yours was. ALL of us would develop co-dependent ways of relating after the emotional stress of living with a partner like your husband. You are just going to need to learn how to stop clinging to those unhelpful ways of relating and become a stronger person who isn't afraid to set boundaries and advocate for herself.


----------



## LisaDiane

Erudite said:


> I feel like a failure. My whole life was so wrapped up in him. My depression, I gained weight, didn't educate myself properly. If I don't do this then what good am I? No one wants a middle age woman like me with a life like mine. At least no one who isn't like him. Lets be real. Hell I even managed to get an online mesagge board annoyed with me.


No one on HERE is annoyed with you...you need to read some of the other threads where the original posters really get bashed around for being foolish and blind, or stupid!! Lol!

You have been getting mostly gentle treatment...but I find it interesting that you've interpreted these replies as "annoyed".
THAT is codependency. Have you looked anything up online about it yet? Or about local Al-Anon meetings you can attend?

The number one thing you need to start doing is being KIND to YOURSELF. Try to stop the negative judgements you are making against yourself - they aren't helping you, and they aren't FAIR to you. You did the best you could with the situation you were in. Don't criticize yourself like that. You need to learn to protect yourself (even from you!), and to TAKE CARE of yourself...because I suspect you don't do that much. However, you NEED to, because no one else is going to take care of you! You've got to start being your own advocate, your emotional health depends on that.

And I know what you mean about feeling like a failure. I have REALLY struggled with that after losing the love of my husband who I adored with all my heart for 16 years. I used to say, his love was perfect for me (it was)...but it was an illusion. And it was VERY hard to face that and to stop blaming myself for the choices he made that ended our marriage. It's a PROCESS of healing...there are NO quick fixes or magic formulas that fix everything for you. YOU must make the choices that bring you the outcome that you want, and you have to do that work that's needed to get there, whatever that is.


----------



## Prodigal

@Erudite - I'm really sorry I'm coming down on you so hard. I can tell you are a good mom to your boys. But your deadbeat husband has taken advantage of your kind nature. Please accept my apologies for being a hard ass. Take it from me: I had ZERO self-esteem and beat up on myself for way too long. Stay strong, stay the course, and keep your awful husband out of your life.

I assure you that the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train!


----------



## Erudite

LisaDiane said:


> I believe it's very important for your kids to see their father's consequences and their mother's strength in leaving him to them. The answer is YES, it IS the right thing to do to leave him to deal with what HE has created for himself.
> 
> You tell your son that you love his father, and you've hoped and waited for years for him to make better choices...but HE is refusing and you cannot live like that anymore. Tell him that you are not going to let anyone hurt you or your children, not even their father. And that you hate to see him struggle, but that's from HIS OWN choices, and so it's NOT your job to "rescue" him from his consequences...and that you are hoping he will now choose to better himself, but whatever he does is HIS choice.
> 
> Here is what you keep missing -- YOU are NOT responsible for HIM. What you are struggling with are BOUNDARIES.
> Setting boundaries makes you uncomfortable, because you are codependent. That doesn't make you "bad" or a failure or hopeless...it makes you typical of someone who has lived in a relationship like yours was. ALL of us would develop co-dependent ways of relating after the emotional stress of living with a partner like your husband. You are just going to need to learn how to stop clinging to those unhelpful ways of relating and become a stronger person who isn't afraid to set boundaries and advocate for herself.


Thank you. My therapist is far more harsh than anyone here. I stay with her because she doesn't let me make excuses. Lol I know tend to fall into self pity mode when exhausted. And if I offended anyone like Prodigal, who was in a similar position to mine, I apologize. 

Also thank you for giving me some words to use with my son. Honest and age appropriate. I struggle with that.


----------



## Erudite

LisaDiane said:


> No one on HERE is annoyed with you...you need to read some of the other threads where the original posters really get bashed around for being foolish and blind, or stupid!! Lol!
> 
> You have been getting mostly gentle treatment...but I find it interesting that you've interpreted these replies as "annoyed".
> THAT is codependency. Have you looked anything up online about it yet? Or about local Al-Anon meetings you can attend?
> 
> The number one thing you need to start doing is being KIND to YOURSELF. Try to stop the negative judgements you are making against yourself - they aren't helping you, and they aren't FAIR to you. You did the best you could with the situation you were in. Don't criticize yourself like that. You need to learn to protect yourself (even from you!), and to TAKE CARE of yourself...because I suspect you don't do that much. However, you NEED to, because no one else is going to take care of you! You've got to start being your own advocate, your emotional health depends on that.
> 
> And I know what you mean about feeling like a failure. I have REALLY struggled with that after losing the love of my husband who I adored with all my heart for 16 years. I used to say, his love was perfect for me (it was)...but it was an illusion. And it was VERY hard to face that and to stop blaming myself for the choices he made that ended our marriage. It's a PROCESS of healing...there are NO quick fixes or magic formulas that fix everything for you. YOU must make the choices that bring you the outcome that you want, and you have to do that work that's needed to get there, whatever that is.


Yes quick fixes!! Thats what I want. I really want to prove that I. Do. Not. Need him. I have very high standards for myself...for others not sp much apparently.


----------



## Erudite

Prodigal said:


> @Erudite - I'm really sorry I'm coming down on you so hard. I can tell you are a good mom to your boys. But your deadbeat husband has taken advantage of your kind nature. Please accept my apologies for being a hard ass. Take it from me: I had ZERO self-esteem and beat up on myself for way too long. Stay strong, stay the course, and keep your awful husband out of your life.
> 
> I assure you that the light at the end of the tunnel is not a train!


Goodness. I am insensitive today. People share their stories to remind me I am not alone and as proof that it can be done. And I just kind of kicked the dirt on that. I am the one who should apologize. 

I practice more self care than I used to but it is so much more than reading a book or allowing myself to veg. I know you will all be shocked but I don't set boundaries with anyone very well. My boys don't take advantage very often, bur I get bit in the butt at work too. 😝


----------



## Cooper

In one of your post you disparaged yourself by remarking how you weren't sure a decent guy would want you if you divorced because of some weight gain and lack of education. The measure of your worth has NOTHING to do with having a man in your life! Frankly many people could lead much happier and fulfilling lives if they were single, but they think that makes them some sort of misfit. 

You manage a home, two kids, and are employed while still dealing with a piss poor excuse of a husband. In my book you're accomplished. If you are unhappy with your weight lose some, want more education get some, but do those things for you, not because you think that's what a man wants.

As someone on this site once said "never allow someone to suck the joy out of your life". That's probably a bit of a paraphrase and I wish I could remember who to credit with the statement but I think that philosopy should become your goal.


----------



## Erudite

Cooper said:


> In one of your post you disparaged yourself by remarking how you weren't sure a decent guy would want you if you divorced because of some weight gain and lack of education. The measure of your worth has NOTHING to do with having a man in your life! Frankly many people could lead much happier and fulfilling lives if they were single, but they think that makes them some sort of misfit.
> 
> You manage a home, two kids, and are employed while still dealing with a piss poor excuse of a husband. In my book you're accomplished. If you are unhappy with your weight lose some, want more education get some, but do those things for you, not because you think that's what a man wants.
> 
> As someone on this site once said "never allow someone to suck the joy out of your life". That's probably a bit of a paraphrase and I wish I could remember who to credit with the statement but I think that philosopy should become your goal.


Thank you for saying so. I am not even ready to date yet anyway. But I would like to have a fulfilling relationship someday and a positive male rolemodel for my kids. Being with their Dad did not give them the best education of how a man treats a woman or what real partnership is like. Although I think I have showed them, now, how I want to be treated.

Also, when I am not throwing myself a pity party, its also alot of regret. I am not young or as beautiful as I was. I can't even bear children anymore. Its like alot of what made me a woman was slowly stripped away. Being attractive to men and flirting was enjoyable. Its not about needing a man as suffering the deterioration of my percieved womanhood. I used to have all these innate qualities that I took for granted if that makes any sense.


----------



## Erudite

Update: 
It appears that ex has only a few weeks before moving. He has sent me many texts hinting that my son would be happier if we were back together. He says he is sorry for "whatever he did" I have been firm that he needs help beyond my capabilities ( exact words ) I sent him some links for campers. Told him he should contact the VA. I gave him the number of my resource worker.and I reached out to his estranged family. Brothers who are financially solid. I feel like that is more than I really owe him but helps my concience somewhat.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Sorry for "whatever he did"?

So he has no idea what the problem is or he's not going to acknowledge it. Either way he's a terrible prospect. You have nothing to work with and will be a lot happier without him.


----------



## Affaircare

@Erudite ,

I think it might be wiser when he "hints" like that to actually say OUT LOUD, "I want to be clear with you that in no way will you be moving in with us. Please find your own accomodations because they will not be here." Write it out just like that, because I suspect he's the kind who avoids personal responsibility and blameshifts to everyone but himself...and thus he'll say something like "I'm homeless because you never said I couldn't move in with you and so I didn't make arrangements! Can't I move in until I find something?" etc. Nope. Be very clear, in writing, right out loud now. 

Also here's a good book for you to begin reading: Codependent No More by Melody Beatty Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself: Beattie, Melody: 2015894864025: Amazon.com: Books It's $12 brand new and like $6 used (with shipping). I still have my copy on the shelf right behind me...well worth any price!

Final thought: "NO" is a complete sentence. Practice saying it.


----------



## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> He has sent me many texts hinting that my son would be happier if we were back together.


Wow. How low can he go? Now he's using his own son as a means to guilt you into letting him into your living space. Feel guilt and remorse or whatever you want ... just don't let him move in. This clown is a user and a taker. You gave him resources to use if he wants to find a place to live. That's enough. 

Believe me, you will look back on this and be relieved you got this useless man out of your life. Seriously.


----------



## Numb26

Prodigal said:


> Wow. How low can he go? Now he's using his own son as a means to guilt you into letting him into your living space. Feel guilt and remorse or whatever you want ... just don't let him move in. This clown is a user and a taker. You gave him resources to use if he wants to find a place to live. That's enough.
> 
> Believe me, you will look back on this and be relieved you got this useless man out of your life. Seriously.


This is some **** my EX tried too


----------



## Cooper

Please don't feel it is your job to preserve a relationship between your STBX and your son. He's a grown ass man and needs to figure things out on his own. Also on the plus side you will be a better parent once your home becomes a stress free environment, and that will make things better for your son.


----------



## Erudite

Prodigal said:


> Wow. How low can he go? Now he's using his own son as a means to guilt you into letting him into your living space. Feel guilt and remorse or whatever you want ... just don't let him move in. This clown is a user and a taker. You gave him resources to use if he wants to find a place to live. That's enough.
> Believe me, you will look back on this and be relieved you got this useless man out of your life. Seriously.


I got a bit angry with him today. I told him that I get he has a crappy life. Instead of trying to make me feel guilty about it, tell me what you plan to do to make it better. He said he was in a catch 22 blah blah blah. I told him he has 2 weeks to figure crap out and to stop waffling and make some decisions. He complained he couldnt get a job that would make ends meet. I called bull and said businesses were begging to hire. I remember what I learned here. He is smart, with a phone, and I provided resources. Get busy living or get busy dying. But no more guilting me and I couldn't help any more. It was as much of a roar as I could muster.


----------



## Erudite

Numb26 said:


> This is some **** my EX tried too


I get why they do it but damn it ticks me off.


----------



## Erudite

Cooper said:


> Please don't feel it is your job to preserve a relationship between your STBX and your son. He's a grown ass man and needs to figure things out on his own. Also on the plus side you will be a better parent once your home becomes a stress free environment, and that will make things better for your son.


Do you know I used to have high blood pressure? Since I moved it has been normal. The lack of face to face contact daily has reduced my stress significantly. Sigh. Well if he starts living out of his truck he wont be seeing much of his son anyway...


----------



## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> Do you know I used to have high blood pressure? Since I moved it has been normal. The lack of face to face contact daily has reduced my stress significantly. Sigh. Well if he starts living out of his truck he wont be seeing much of his son anyway...


I have terrible IBS.

I still have it but it greatly improved once I left my ex and all the stress he caused.

Stress is a killer.


----------



## Prodigal

Here's my suggestion to you: Just stop engaging him and pointing out his shortcomings/general lack of being a stand-up kinda guy. He isn't. You know it. And, on some level, he knows it too. That is, if he can step over his entitlement mentality long enough to be honest with himself.

This guy is a complete waste of your time. And I get it. I really do. But I also learned that telling a jerk like this what is reality will only frustrate you. Why are you doing this? Why are you engaging him in this manner? Codependency. Pure and simple. Get off his side of the street. Now. Own what is yours to own and leave him to see the light - or not - on his own.


----------



## Erudite

Well unfortunately he knows how to push my buttons. I think I need to learn some cbt to catch mysel when I fall into the trap...🤪


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> I have terrible IBS.
> 
> I still have it but it greatly improved once I left my ex and all the stress he caused.
> 
> Stress is a killer.


Good god, yes. It maifests in blood pressure, your bowel, heart...I have a friend with IBS. Wouldn't want to trade places. You know I think I engage on some level because it is familiar. It almost lets me forget of the other stressors in life. Like I am doing this on my own. I have been for awhile but now it is real and being honest a bit frightening.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> Good god, yes. It maifests in blood pressure, your bowel, heart...I have a friend with IBS. Wouldn't want to trade places. You know I think I engage on some level because it is familiar. It almost lets me forget of the other stressors in life. Like I am doing this on my own. I have been for awhile but now it is real and being honest a bit frightening.


People tend to be creatures of habit and inertia is high when the decision is life altering.

He's the devil you know...it's like that last cookie after which you're going to start your diet. It's easy to keep having one more and one more.

Don't sell yourself short. You've basically been alone for a long time...you just didn't know it. After I left my ex, who was husband number 2, I bought the first house I've ever owned on my own. It's fantastic....my 2 sons live with me and we do what we want when we want without having to walk on eggshells to avoid offending or upsetting his majesty.

And I've gotten pretty good at maintenance. I have a degree in physics and am mechanically inclined, and my older son studies electrical engineering so he is too. My boys cut the grass but if they're busy I'll do it.

If something is needed that I can't fix i call someone...just had my AC fixed and I have a nice company. I always have them walk me through everything that's going on so I can continue to learn and the repair guys always seem happy to talk about it. And I always drop that I'm ex army and they usually appreciate that as many of them are ex military too.

And without my scumbag ex I was able to find a lovely bf who helps me with stuff, and I'm older then you so you will have plenty of options if you're interested 😀

Let your hb figure out his own life. In fact, I'd argue that you are enabling him and he might stand up once he can't lean on you, but either way it's not your problem. You'll be fine...if I can do it so can you


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> People tend to be creatures of habit and inertia is high when the decision is life altering.
> 
> He's the devil you know...it's like that last cookie after which you're going to start your diet. It's easy to keep having one more and one more.
> 
> Don't sell yourself short. You've basically been alone for a long time...you just didn't know it. After I left my ex, who was husband number 2, I bought the first house I've ever owned on my own. It's fantastic....my 2 sons live with me and we do what we want when we want without having to walk on eggshells to avoid offending or upsetting his majesty.
> 
> And I've gotten pretty good at maintenance. I have a degree in physics and am mechanically inclined, and my older son studies electrical engineering so he is too. My boys cut the grass but if they're busy I'll do it.
> 
> If something is needed that I can't fix i call someone...just had my AC fixed and I have a nice company. I always have them walk me through everything that's going on so I can continue to learn and the repair guys always seem happy to talk about it. And I always drop that I'm ex army and they usually appreciate that as many of them are ex military too.
> 
> And without my scumbag ex I was able to find a lovely bf who helps me with stuff, and I'm older then you so you will have plenty of options if you're interested 😀
> 
> Let your hb figure out his own life. In fact, I'd argue that you are enabling him and he might stand up once he can't lean on you, but either way it's not your problem. You'll be fine...if I can do it so can you


You have boys too? I don't what I would do without mine. I know that walking on eggshells feeling! Little things like running a fan at night so I an sleep without it being turned off because I am going to start a house fire.

Well I cant seem to think of any more options for him anyway and seeing as he is NOT moving in...well that is that. I am burnt. Now I just have to fight the urge to tell him off all the time.

I couldn't do this without my older son. He helps me by picking up his brother after he gets out of work. Yesterday he got out of work late and he was rushing to get his brother and got a speeding ticket. I felt bad because he was doing it for me and he prides himself for being on time. Unlike his dad who used to always be late. Plus his father showed up at his work and layed all his woes on his son. Mama bear started coming out. It was hard not to lash out. I wanted to fix the ticket and yell at his Dad.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> People tend to be creatures of habit and inertia is high when the decision is life altering.
> 
> He's the devil you know...it's like that last cookie after which you're going to start your diet. It's easy to keep having one more and one more.
> 
> Don't sell yourself short. You've basically been alone for a long time...you just didn't know it. After I left my ex, who was husband number 2, I bought the first house I've ever owned on my own. It's fantastic....my 2 sons live with me and we do what we want when we want without having to walk on eggshells to avoid offending or upsetting his majesty.
> 
> And I've gotten pretty good at maintenance. I have a degree in physics and am mechanically inclined, and my older son studies electrical engineering so he is too. My boys cut the grass but if they're busy I'll do it.
> 
> If something is needed that I can't fix i call someone...just had my AC fixed and I have a nice company. I always have them walk me through everything that's going on so I can continue to learn and the repair guys always seem happy to talk about it. And I always drop that I'm ex army and they usually appreciate that as many of them are ex military too.
> 
> And without my scumbag ex I was able to find a lovely bf who helps me with stuff, and I'm older then you so you will have plenty of options if you're interested 😀
> 
> Let your hb figure out his own life. In fact, I'd argue that you are enabling him and he might stand up once he can't lean on you, but either way it's not your problem. You'll be fine...if I can do it so can you


My goal is to buy my own house some day too. Problem is I am not livong paycheck to paycheck exactly, but I am not getting ahead either. 😝


----------



## D0nnivain

I'm glad to see you getting stronger but I'm still going to address the earlier points. 



Erudite said:


> but is letting my kids watch their father suffer the right thing to do when I have the capability to stop it or at least lessen it?
> 
> I know I can do more because I have done more. The exhaustion is killing me.


Read that last sentence again. There is a reason they tell you in the event of an airplane crash to put on your mask before helping others. You have help yourself before you can be good to any one else. 

Your children saw you helping dad & dad doing nothing to help himself. By stopping you will teach your kids self reliance & personal responsibility. You will also teach them not to let others use them. What will you teach them if you continue to let dad take advantage of you? 




Erudite said:


> I just assumed that he wasn't eligible for some reason. I know he passed bootcamp. But if he does have this resource why does he refuse it? I just want to be done.


Veterans are funny that way. There are also other types of discharges beyond honorable v dishonorable. In the VA system even dishonorably discharged vets can still get some medical care even if they are not eligible for cash payments. 

If he has a MENSA IQ he can figure this out. If his brothers are helping he has resources. Not your problem anymore. 
Do not fall for the underhanded emotional manipulation of him trying to use your kids. A child doesn't have the insight to understand adult marriage. The Fairy Tale won't cut it in reality. 




Erudite said:


> I feel like a failure. My whole life was so wrapped up in him. My depression, I gained weight, didn't educate myself properly. If I don't do this then what good am I? No one wants a middle age woman like me with a life like mine. At least no one who isn't like him. Lets be real. Hell I even managed to get an online mesagge board annoyed with me.


You are not a failure & nobody's mad at you. Lot's of people are depressed. The whole world gained weight & let their hair go grey in Covid. If you don't like your present situation change it. Instead of fretting about what more you can do for your EX, spend that time working on you. Exercise. Eat right. Take a class. 

When you feel better about yourself & emotionally stronger you will be attractive again. right now you are understandably feeling sorry for yourself. Find your inner strength & move on. 



Erudite said:


> My goal is to buy my own house some day too. Problem is I am not livong paycheck to paycheck exactly, but I am not getting ahead either. 😝


Time to do a budget & create a plan. You will be pleasantly surprised about how you will reach your goal when you stop having him drain your finances. 

Good luck . ..I see all sorts of progress just through this thread. Stick with your therapist. Make the changes you want. You are going in the right direction.


----------



## Talker67

Erudite said:


> I am getting a grasp on this. At least in so far as I am attempting to ignore these feelings and acknowledge them to be irrational. I only see my therapist twice a month. I wanted to thank all of you for shoring up my resolve and reminding me I am not crazy. I am doing the right thing. I am also trying to remind myself that I am not doing him any favors either by falling into old patterns or giving him false hope.


have you started dating? Maybe have a friend set you up with a date or two?
seeing how a normal, non-batshitcrazy man behaves would open your eyes fully!


----------



## gaius

The worst thing you can do for a loser ex-husband is to bail him out from the consequences of his actions. And the worst thing you could do for your son's is to teach them it's acceptable to be that way, and they can expect a woman to come bail them out too if they decide to follow his example.


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## MattMatt

Intelligent does not mean smart in every day terms.

Many MENSA members have problems dealing with life. 

Just because a person has a high IQ doesn't mean they are able to be empathetic to other people. Quite the opposite, sometimes. 

For example Ted Kaczynski, 'The Una Bomber's' IQ was higher than Albert Einstein's. Not saying you husband is a psychopath, but try not to get hung up on the idea that high IQ = a better person.


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## Blondilocks

He can't get a job to make ends meet? Then, he gets two jobs. Bonus is he'll have less drinking time.


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## Erudite

Talker67 said:


> have you started dating? Maybe have a friend set you up with a date or two?
> seeing how a normal, non-batshitcrazy man behaves would open your eyes fully!


☺ not ready for dating yet. But, it sounds silly, I did the free version of match. Took my first ever selfie. Lol i won't say I had men beating down my door but I have a dozen or so likes...☺


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## Erudite

Blondilocks said:


> He can't get a job to make ends meet? Then, he gets two jobs. Bonus is he'll have less drinking time.


Oh he is too good for that _ahem_


----------



## Erudite

MattMatt said:


> Intelligent does not mean smart in every day terms.
> 
> Many MENSA members have problems dealing with life.
> 
> Just because a person has a high IQ doesn't mean they are able to be empathetic to other people. Quite the opposite, sometimes.
> 
> For example Ted Kaczynski, 'The Una Bomber's' IQ was higher than Albert Einstein's. Not saying you husband is a psychopath, but try not to get hung up on the idea that high IQ = a better person.


I never knew that! The things you learn!


----------



## Talker67

Erudite said:


> ☺ not ready for dating yet. But, it sounds silly, I did the free version of match. Took my first ever selfie. Lol i won't say I had men beating down my door but I have a dozen or so likes...☺


i bet you look smoking hot! 
get psyched, for when you are ready to try.


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## Erudite

Aww shucks! 🙂


----------



## Erudite

Here it comes. He wants to have. THE TALK. He is offering to take me out to eat or go wherever we want. He doesn't want to discuss over phone or text and I dont want to do this on front of the kiddo. Help!


----------



## Openminded

Don’t go to dinner.


----------



## Openminded

He thinks he can convince you easier in person.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Erudite said:


> A little back story. I moved out with my children 5 months ago. My ex was in a dispute with the landlord at the time. I had been paying all the rent as my ex was unemployed with no benefits for 3 years. I never once missed a payment nor missed a payment for untilities. Previously we lost our own house and evicted from our next home due to my husbands chronic unemployment. I found a good job, got certified in my field, and seemed to be able to keep things afloat. Even during covid. Then my ex got into it with the landlord anx even though their was no qualm with me or the children wanted us out because of him. It was the final straw. In addition to years of physical, emotional, and financial abuse he was getting us thrown out...again.
> 
> Before we could be evicted I managed to find my own place and moved. This new place is temporary. Money is tight, but rent gets paid on time etc etc. I told him he was not welcome to live in my new home. My ex had no choice but to stay in the old place and fought the land lord in court. He lost. He is appealing. He is still not working. I do not know what his finances look like. I pay his cell bill because it was a family plan under my name and I want the kids to be able to contact their Dad.
> 
> It has been 5 months since I moved. I feel incredibly guilty. He has had a couple of interviews but things haven't panned out for him. He resents me. He has lost weight, been drinking more. I don't now what to do.Do I offer to let him stay with us? ( I don't want to) Do I let him become homless? And if I do that what to do about visitation? Any advice would be welcome. Thank you.


NO, you don't allow him to live with you. He is destructive to your family. Get a divorce and call it a day and get your finances severed from his immediately. Divorce won't prohibit you from still giving a crap about him if you are so inclined.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Sure.. it's easier to ******** you in person.

This bum needs a meal ticket.

No dinner, no talking. Period.


----------



## Erudite

Openminded said:


> He thinks he can convince you easier in person.


I know. He has tried guilt. Pity. Now he is going to try charm. I am really nervous and feel like crying.


----------



## lifeistooshort

That's what abusers do. They shrift tactics to find one that works. If you don't respond to this he'll try something else.

My ex did the same thing. Charm, pity, guilt, beg, bullying. Even playing dumb and pretending like I hadn't asked for a divorce.

Playing dumb was his specialty. LOL.

Nothing unique here.


----------



## Openminded

Don’t.Do.It.


----------



## Cooper

Please learn to say no. Don't argue, don't yell, don't apologize, don't offer excuses. The strongest statement you can make is to say "no, I just don't want to do that". Offer no apologizes, no excuses, no negotiating, say goodbye and hang up. Let no become your muscle, not to hurt him but to empower you.


----------



## Affaircare

Erudite said:


> Here it comes. He wants to have. THE TALK. He is offering to take me out to eat or go wherever we want. He doesn't want to discuss over phone or text and I dont want to do this on front of the kiddo. Help!


“I realize YOU may want to go to dinner and talk, but I do not. There us nothing to talk about. As I clearly stated before, the answer is NO, you are not moving in here with us.”

The End.

You’re welcome.😉


----------



## Erudite

Update: We had an in person talk. (Not dinner!) It was just a rehash of our marriage. He told me he loved me, wanted counseling, cried actual tears. I told him too little to late and that he was just saying all this out of desperation and he could not live with us. He switch tacks by saying My son wanted to live with him and that when he was on his feet my son was going with him. I called his bluff and said fine If you get to a place in your life that you can support him properly go for it, but I doubt it. The whole thing was a nightmare but I stayed strong.

The actual eviction went through yesterday. For the last two days he and a friend were in a panic trying to get all his stuff out ( and since he was a hoarder that's a crap ton of stuff) He was dropping things off ( that I didnt want) outside my door at midnight 2 nights ago. Then showed up at my door at 9pm wanting to see our son. I have never in my life seen someone look so broken down and defeated. I dont know the details but he got himself arrested and was released on personal cognisance earlier in the day while I was at work. He was clearly in physical pain. I gave him some ibuprofen, let him take a shower, and my older son gave him clean clothes. But I did not let him stay. I did what I could to treat him humanely in front of his child and sent him on his way. I feel like a crappy person but I at least maintained some boundaries for myself.

Just found out he slept in his truck all night, if he slept at all.


----------



## D0nnivain

Stay strong. Some times you have to let people hit rock bottom so they can finally crawl out of the whole.


----------



## Erudite

It was very confusing for me. I feel like I did too much for him and too little. Ugh!


----------



## lifeistooshort

Yeah....the guy who got evicted, arrested, had to drop stuff at your doorstep and take a shower at your place is going to somehow support his son...assuming his son actually did even want to go with him.

Pathetic attempt at manipulating you.

I think you did good.


----------



## Openminded

You definitely didn’t do too little. He apparently can’t (or won’t) cope with life. My guess is he may start showing up on your doorstep regularly now that he’s been evicted. Be prepared for what manipulation he throws your way.


----------



## Erudite

Openminded said:


> You definitely didn’t do too little. He apparently can’t (or won’t) cope with life. My guess is he may start showing up on your doorstep regularly now that he’s been evicted. Be prepared for what manipulation he throws your way.


Its already started. He saud he wanted to take our son to McDs. He would pick him up in 1/2 hr 2 hrs later he shows up with frozen pizza and chips. Then when I get irritated tells me I am being unfair. I might just go insane.


----------



## Openminded

Erudite said:


> Its already started. He saud he wanted to take our son to McDs. He would pick him up in 1/2 hr 2 hrs later he shows up with frozen pizza and chips. Then when I get irritated tells me I am being unfair. I might just go insane.


No surprise there.

Keep repeating to yourself that he can only do what you allow him to do. If he wants to see your son then it needs to be away from where you live. And you’ll have to keep reinforcing because he’ll keep pushing.


----------



## Erudite

And now? Conveniently he locked himself out of his truck What the actual f****!!!


----------



## Openminded

He will do whatever it takes to convince you to let him stay there.


----------



## Openminded

And if you do, you’ll never get him out.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Openminded said:


> And if you do, you’ll never get him out.


Agreed. This is the same as a toddler escalating the tantrums to get you to give in.

Do not let this guy back in.


----------



## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> ts already started. He saud he wanted to take our son to McDs. He would pick him up in 1/2 hr 2 hrs later he shows up with frozen pizza and chips. Then when I get irritated tells me I am being unfair. I might just go insane.


If you continue engaging him, you WILL go insane. You need to take responsibility for your own actions. To hell with him. When he showed up with the pizza and chips, you should have told him to leave immediately. Don't react - ACT. Look, we all know he's an ass and a loser. So adjust your reactions/behaviors accordingly. He can only do this if you dance along with him.

I lived with a similar situation. When the loser I was married to realized I meant business, he gave up. Granted, he called me every name in the book, but his opinion meant squat to me.

And that's the crux of the situation: Quit caring what he thinks of you. Disengage. Detach. You'll be surprised how you quickly regain your sanity when you refuse to play the game.


----------



## Erudite

The latest trick? Offering to pay me rent! Do housework. Take care of his kid. Oh and he will be out in a week. This from the guy who is still not working, has never cleaned house in his life, nor showed up at the latest PTA conference. Does he actually believe this crap when he says it? I pushed back hard.

As Prodigal advised. I was firm with him. He kept explaining himself and why it was good for me. I said no, means no. I have done more than enough, and been more than accommodating. He started whining, saying I was harsh and insulting and it was difficult for him to even ask. I told him it was difficult for me to say no but it is how I have to be to set boundaries. I am harsh because to be any other way sets the tone that I can be pushed around.


----------



## jonty30

Erudite said:


> The latest trick? Offering to pay me rent! Do housework. Take care of his kid. Oh and he will be out in a week. This from the guy who is still not working, has never cleaned house in his life, nor showed up at the latest PTA conference. Does he actually believe this crap when he says it? I pushed back hard.
> 
> As Prodigal advised. I was firm with him. He kept explaining himself and why it was good for me. I said no, means no. I have done more than enough, and been more than accommodating. He started whining, saying I was harsh and insulting and it was difficult for him to even ask. I told him it was difficult for me to say no but it is how I have to be to set boundaries. I am harsh because to be any other way sets the tone that I can be pushed around.


Like he should have been doing as a husband?

Yeah, that won't stick.


----------



## Erudite

On a different note I have had some positives happen! I have started reconnecting with old friends via facebook, and my credit score jumped 42 points. I now have "fair" credit. If I keep up with my finances I may even qualify for a loan soon. I am so happy about that!


----------



## Erudite

jonty30 said:


> Like he should have been doing as a husband?
> 
> Yeah, that won't stick.


Exactly. I had to bite my lip not to say it that way. But yeah!


----------



## Openminded

Now that you know he’ll never change, you can be prepared for what he’ll try. Because he won’t give up.

As for the positives, they are definitely good — your life is finally on the upswing. Enjoy it.


----------



## Erudite

Openminded said:


> Now that you know he’ll never change, you can be prepared for what he’ll try. Because he won’t give up.
> 
> As for the positives, they are definitely good — your life is finally on the upswing. Enjoy it.


Why? That is what I don't get. I remember all the times he would spit vitriol at me and say how lucky I was to have him and he was gonna live out of his truck just to get away from me. Well wish granted, jerkface.

As for the other stuff I was stuck in a poor mans out look for a long time. I am trying to think like a rich petson if that makes any sense at all...


----------



## Openminded

Erudite said:


> Why? That is what I don't get. I remember all the times he would spit vitriol at me and say how lucky I was to have him and he was gonna live out of his truck just to get away from me. Well wish granted, jerkface.
> 
> As for the other stuff I was stuck in a poor mans out look for a long time. I am trying to think like a rich petson if that makes any sense at all...


Because he has nothing and he knows it. He said that stuff before to keep you in line. Now life just got real and he’s scared. You’re it and he doesn’t want to let go.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> Why? That is what I don't get. I remember all the times he would spit vitriol at me and say how lucky I was to have him and he was gonna live out of his truck just to get away from me. Well wish granted, jerkface.
> 
> As for the other stuff I was stuck in a poor mans out look for a long time. I am trying to think like a rich petson if that makes any sense at all...


My ex was like that too. When he thought I wasn't going anywhere he was very nasty and manipulative but when I dumped him all of a sudden the begging started.

You see who people are when they think you aren't going anywhere or you're not looking.

Shifting tactics are to be expected while he looks for one that works. Stay strong.


----------



## Erudite

Openminded said:


> Because he has nothing and he knows it. He said that stuff before to keep you in line. Now life just got real and he’s scared. You’re it and he doesn’t want to let go.


Everytime something happens it brings up memories. For instance he is going to sell his motorcycle for cash. I had begged him during our marriage to do that to help us out financially and he refused saying it was his only hobby. Remember how I said I was finding it hard to be mad? Well its stuff like this that is making me mad! Now he'll do it because life got real, but before we werent real. We were just a meal ticket. 🤬 makes it easier to say no and lessens the guilt.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> My ex was like that too. When he thought I wasn't going anywhere he was very nasty and manipulative but when I dumped him all of a sudden the begging started.
> 
> You see who people are when they think you aren't going anywhere or you're not looking.
> 
> Shifting tactics are to be expected while he looks for one that works. Stay strong.


I am so frustrated with myself. I told him I was doing well on my own. And he brought up why didn't I do these positive things before. I don't have a good answer other than I was depressed. I didn't think I could. I was told as mucb. I was sure be would sabotage anything. I was defeated emotionally. I am so much better now.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Stop engaging him.

The manipulation from his is obvious.


----------



## Blondilocks

Erudite said:


> And he brought up why didn't I do these positive things before. I don't have a good answer


Answer: Because I had an albatross on my back.


----------



## Erudite

Well it happened again! He picked up our son after school and brought him to my house. Meaning he was there when I got there. Of course there was much woe. Then I got in an argument with my other son and my ex used that as an excuse to try and take the younger one out for the week end. I told him no, and he needed to go. He literally started lecturing me and screaming and refused to leave without my son. My young son was really upset and my older son took his Dads side because he was mad at me. At one point ex left the apartment but stood right in the door and taunted me and refused to let me shut the door. Eventually my son left with his Dad. I immediately called the police. I am soooo done with this bull.....


----------



## lifeistooshort

Why don't you tell your 19 year old that since his dad is so great he should move in with him?

The guy is 19. If he's going to live with you and let you support him as a grown man and still disrespect you tell him he's free to go. You don't have to be a jerk...just tell him that if you're so unfair maybe he'd be happier with his dad.

See how long that lasts.

How old is the younger one?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Something similar happened to a close friend of mine. Her hb of 20 years refused to work and filed for divorce when he thought he had a sugar mama. I don't want to thread jack with the back story bur suffice to say sugar mama didn't work out and he tried to come back.

She refused and he went on the warpath....same crap with sleeping in his car and poor him, he doesn't know what to do. Threatened her, stalked her, manipulated the kids....and he was also an addict (coking).

The kids were used to her supporting everyone so it was all about poor dad....mom is so mean. She shared her anger with me and I told her to be patient....eventually they'd see him for what he was. The 3 kids were all between late teens and early 20’s so I advised her to start removing support and they could stay with dad since he's so great. 

She continued to help them out as they moved to adulthood but didn't go above and beyond anymore. Guess what happened? Without her to provide and cover for him they started to deal with HIM....the guy who won't work, cokes, is mad at everyone, and mooches money off of them.

One of the kids currently has nothing to do with him and the other two don't have much to do with him. They came to appreciate her support.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> Why don't you tell your 19 year old that since his dad is so great he should move in with him?
> 
> The guy is 19. If he's going to live with you and let you support him as a grown man and still disrespect you tell him he's free to go. You don't have to be a jerk...just tell him that if you're so unfair maybe he'd be happier with his dad.
> 
> See how long that lasts.
> 
> How old is the younger one?


The fight with my adult son was so frustrating because it was stupid. He was gaming and I asked him to totally change the litter box. He tried to just scoop it so he could rush back to his game. I wasn't having it as the attitude had his father written all over it. For the record i let him stay with me rent free. He unlike his father has a job snd he is supposed to be saving money for his own vehicle. In exchange for me footing the bill he helps with his brother. I literally couldnt do my job if it werent for him watching the younger. He will go to the dump and do laundry. Usually we don't fight at all but this time I lost it on him.

His father used our fight as an excuse to try and leave for the week end with my 10year old. Saying that I was traumatizing him and he was protecting him from MY rage issues. MY rage issues. It was "his weekend" etc etc. He tried to leave without even asking to take him and I had to chase him outside to bring my son back. Now I am involved in two fights in my own home because he follows me inside. I yell at him to leave and now he starts going ballistic saying how awful I am making him sleep in the car, He would never do that to us etc etc. He was holding my son away from me. He just wanted me to give in and let him stay. He didn't really want to take our son. He had no where to take him! At some point I managed to get him out the door but he stood on the doorway and taunted me and wouldnt let me shut the door. Then my older son goes on a rant against me and tells his brother to go with his father. At this pount I have all 3 men in my life upset with me! I couldnt see any way to keep things from escalating so I let my son go and then immediately called the cops.

They were there in less than 5 minutes. I explained my situation to them. Ex homless. Refusing to leave my home. No where to take son on cold night. 1 officer talked to me the other to him outside. They told me there was nothing they could do since, for now, he has equal rights to my son but that I was in no obligated to let him in my house and if I say he goes he goes. The officers convinced him it was a better idea to let my son come back to his nice warm home and to leave me alone. The officer who spoke with me also firmly laid into my oldest. Since your mom covers all the bills when she asks for something to be done you do it, do it right, and dont complain. You really let her down tonight and owe her an apology.

After they left I get a call 5 minutes later from the cops saying ex was sitting outside in a public lot outside my house. They cant make him move since it is a public lot, but lock my doors. And to call them if I need to. 10 min after they leave he was flippin at my door again. I told my older son I was so bad to go with his Dad otherwise he is not to set foot in here and I will call the cops again. So my oldest went outside with him. 

Like wtf am I doing wrong????


----------



## Openminded

You are finally setting firm boundaries and no one likes it. Nothing about this will be easy, unfortunately.


----------



## Erudite

Openminded said:


> You are finally setting firm boundaries and no one likes it. Nothing about this will be easy, unfortunately.


I dont like being this way. Hate it actually. I have never called the police for any reason before! I knew the cops couldnt make ex give son back but ex needed to know that if he wants me to just roll over its not going to happen. And now I have this incident on record. Because now courts are going to get involved. I am through being nice.


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## Prodigal

Restraining order. You need one NOW. This jerk has all the time in the world to harass you. And, I assure you, he will. Unless you carry a restraining order on your person that states he must stay 100 feet away from you or get arrested, he will pop up when you least expect it. 

I had to get one years ago when the first drunk I married got ugly when I left. The order stipulated he couldn't even call me at work or home. So if you want to get this ass out of your hair, you'll have to play hardball.


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## Blondilocks

Both of your sons need to be told that they are to never let their father in the house - don't even open the door to him. If they do, they can go live with him because you are through with that nonsense.


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## Erudite

Will the court grant me a restraining order? There was no physical violence. I just don't want him in my house. I only want to talk to him via text message. When I go to court do I ask for full custody. Would I get it? The court loves a parenting plan...


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## Erudite

Blondilocks said:


> Both of your sons need to be told that they are to never let their father in the house - don't even open the door to him. If they do, they can go live with him because you are through with that nonsense.


Well he is manipulating my young one. I need to keep him safe. But I am pissed at my oldest right now. I mean treating me like his gather does ovet a stupid litter box. I told him he was welcome to live with his Dad. Now he just isnt speaking to me.


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## Blondilocks

Erudite said:


> Will the court grant me a restraining order? There was no physical violence. I just don't want him in my house. I only want to talk to him via text message. When I go to court do I ask for full custody. Would I get it? The court loves a parenting plan...


Yes, ask for full custody because your stbx does not have a home to provide for a child. That would be obvious to the court. They don't like to see kids living in cars/trucks. Ask for the restraining order. The police told you to call if he tries to bother you again.


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> Well he is manipulating my young one. I need to keep him safe. But I am pissed at my oldest right now. I mean treating me like his gather does ovet a stupid litter box. I told him he was welcome to live with his Dad. Now he just isnt speaking to me.


Good. Let him have his tantrum and ignore him.

Welcome to adulthood kid.

My kids are 18 and 20 and I'd do the sane thing.


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## Erudite

I really hate being this person. Cops and courts and fights. Why can't I be like Gwyneth Paltrow and have a nice friendly divorce! 😔


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## Blondilocks

Erudite said:


> I really hate being this person. Cops and courts and fights. Why can't I be like Gwyneth Paltrow and have a nice friendly divorce! 😔


Because you married an entitled brat.


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## Erudite

I don't know why but this made me laugh. The simple truth of it is somehow both sad and hilarious.


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## Openminded

Your police report should help with your restraining order. Call them every time he does something like that (because there’s no reason to think he’ll just stop on his own).


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## Erudite

Yep now he is texting he will call the police on me because I told him no visiting my son in my house and no over nights unlesd he could guarantee my son's where abouts at night. Not unreasonable in my opinion. Told him tp go right ahead and call. They couldn't do anything really for me, what can they do for him?


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## Erudite

Openminded said:


> Your police report should help with your restraining order. Call them every time he does something like that (because there’s no reason to think he’ll just stop on his own).


I can go to the station and get a copy of it right?


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## lifeistooshort

Good job calling his bluff. 

He's in full tantrum mode now because he has little more to lose. He's trying to cause you so much headache that you decide it's easier to let him in.

It'll let up eventually once it doesn't go anywhere.


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## Prodigal

Your current residence is in your name, not his. He is also harassing you. If he comes in , you request he leave and if he doesn't comply immediately to your request, he's guilty of trespassing.

If you don't like playing hardball, consider this: what did being nice accomplish? This man is trouble and bad news. Get all police reports you file. Right now, I'd suggest you go armed with one report before a judge. Your police can tell you which court to go to.

As a rule, a temporary order is granted immediately, with a permanent order granted a week or two later. Look, this is going to get uglier unless you take measures NOW. He has to be aware you won't tolerate this.


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## Openminded

Erudite said:


> I can go to the station and get a copy of it right?


I believe so, yes.


----------



## Openminded

Erudite said:


> Yep now he is texting he will call the police on me because I told him no visiting my son in my house and no over nights unlesd he could guarantee my son's where abouts at night. Not unreasonable in my opinion. Told him tp go right ahead and call. They couldn't do anything really for me, what can they do for him?


No, they really can’t do anything. Custody is a civil matter for a judge to deal with. An ex-extended family member of mine called the police because he wanted to take his daughter on a weekend that wasn’t his and she refused to go. The police very politely told him they couldn’t get involved and he needed to take that up with a judge. He didn’t.


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## Openminded

He absolutely 100% has no right to be in your home unless you invite him. That is something the police will get involved in so call him every time it happens.


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## Erudite

Openminded said:


> He absolutely 100% has no right to be in your home unless you invite him. That is something the police will get involved in so call him every time it happens.


He will say the children invited him. But I have texts to prove he is not welcome in my home. Also texts to prove I am not denying visitation just not in my home or over nights. Which is totally reasonable, imho.


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## Erudite

Also I have explained to my son that I don't want Dad here because we fight alot. I debated on saying Dad could only come in in case of emergency but wasnt sure if it was the right thing to say.


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## Openminded

Tell your son in case of emergency to call 911 — not invite his dad in. That leaves things too open to interpretation.


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## Affaircare

@Erudite ,

I think you are mixing two things: custody/visitation and being at your home. 

The two of you are no longer living together. Your place is in YOUR name and you have repeatedly told him he can not enter and is not welcome. I don't care if the kids do invite him in, YOU are the adult and the home/apartment is in YOUR name and YOU have said out loud and in writing that he may not enter. Thus, he may not enter. Period. If he does enter, you may call the police and they will escort him from the premises. He can yell and scream all he likes, but in the end he has no legal right to be on your premises (even if the kids invite him). If he comes in or breaks in or by whatever means enters your premises, don't engage him and try to argue, etc. Ask him to leave and when/if he doesn't just call the police. 

Regarding being on the premises, if you have told him not to enter, and written it via text/email, and even written him a letter that say "You are not to enter my home/apartment and are not welcome on my premises"...and if he persists in entering or attempting to enter or threatening to enter...THEN you can ask for a restraining order. The way an RO goes is that the first one is temporary for about 2-3 weeks--essentially "until there can be a trial about this, no contact!" A hearing is set for about 2-3 weeks later at which time the judge will hear from you and from him. YOU take to court with you recordings of you saying out loud "You may not come in my house!' You take screenshots of the texts you wrote saying that. You take printed copies of the emails and the letter you sent saying that. And you take a copy of any police record from when you had to call the police because he entered (and yep, to get a copy of the police report, you just go down to the station and ask for a copy). All those things are proof in a court of law that you are the owner or leasee of the premises and he's not, that he has no legal right, that you asked him not to enter, that he entered, and that you had to get police involved. If he threatens to enter--record that on your phone and use that as evidence too! He will present his side--whatever that legal argument may be--and then judge will then either grant or deny the permanent RO. A permanent RO last usually for a set time (a year or so), and it says "X may not be within 500 yards of Y or contact Y in any way". You make several copies of that and always carry one on you, and if he comes by you, comes in the house, or bothers you, you call the police, show them the RO, and he's off to jail. He could choose to deal with his own life and get himself together instead of harassing you, so he's making the choice to continue--and it is reasonable for him to experience the consequences of his choice to continue. And it's not you being a witch--it is a JUDGE and SOCIETY telling him that his actions are not appropriate. 

HOWEVER, the RO has nothing whatsoever to do with custody/visitation. The judge who issues the RO will not say anything about custody or about visitation. So those two are NOT mixed. Since it sounds like he's not really accepting "separation" and is using custody and visitation as a weapon, I'd recommend at minimum filing for legal separation and including a parenting plan in your separation papers. Filing for legal separation accomplishes many things: one it legally recognizes that YOU are no longer on the legal hook for messed up things he does! As of X date, his problems are his own, including finances. If he takes out a loan or gets a credit card, you two are separated and you can't be held liable. Two, it legally declares who has how parenting and visiting will go. If you file for legal separation, ask for an emergency temporary orders hearing. That means that you file, he has a right to respond and fight you, but a judge will say "While we straighten this out, here's how it will go..." and then proceed to say how it will go! For example, in real life he'll likely get 50/50 custody even if he's homeless because he is their father and courts don't usually take away parental rights even when someone is in prison! Custody = "Who is the parent?" not "Who gets them most?" For visitation though, since you have a stable home and job and he has neither, I think you could very reasonable ask the judge to grant "Liberal visitation away from your home and not for overnights until he has a home and bed for them." For example, every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday after school, he can pick them up, take them to McD's, sit in a park...whatever! And he drops them off in the driveway at home by 10pm. He doesn't come in (RO)...he doesn't harass you...he just opens his car door and lets them get out and watches them walk to your apartment door. The end. With a temporary legal order for legal separation, again, he can be as mad as he wants and scream and yell all he wants but it's THE JUDGE who is ordering him to behave a certain way, and via the police, the judge can enforce his/her order. As it stands now--with no legal separation and no temporary orders--there is no way for you or a judge or the police or anyone to enforce anything. 

So those are my recommendations: a) file for your RO so you can enforce him not entering your home, and b) file for legal separation and ask for an emergency temporary order.


----------



## Erudite

I picked up the papers at court today. Waiting on the no contact order until I get a copy of police report. Ex would not give up car so had to walk to work again because I refused to let him drive me in. He actually found me as I was walking and told me to get in andcstop being hateful. Or something. I kept my earbuds in and kept walking. Also found out that he "apologized" to my neighbor about the police. Told her he still loved me but that I was mentally ill and off my meds and if I would stop being so hostile he would go away sooner. She gave him a piece of her mind. Now he's telling me not to bash him.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Still in manipulative tantrum mode.

You're doing well, and keep your neighbors somewhat informed since he's willing to involve them. 

My ex accused me of being hateful too when I called his side piece a while. 

Have him served and keep ignoring him.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> Still in manipulative tantrum mode.
> 
> You're doing well, and keep your neighbors somewhat informed since he's willing to involve them.
> 
> My ex accused me of being hateful too when I called his side piece a while.
> 
> Have him served and keep ignoring him.


Why can't he take the hint? I do not want to talk to him! I can barely get through a text without trembling. I dont want to talk on the phone. I dont want to go to a cafe to "go over the papers". I am not trying to be hostile I am trying to stay sane.


----------



## Openminded

He doesn’t care how you feel. He wants his way and he’ll continue to harass you until he no longer can.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> Why can't he take the hint? I do not want to talk to him! I can barely get through a text without trembling. I dont want to talk on the phone. I dont want to go to a cafe to "go over the papers". I am not trying to be hostile I am trying to stay sane.


He can take the hint. He chooses not to because his goal is to harass you until you break and let him in. He's employing abuser tactics to wear you down.

My ex sent texts and emails too until he finally gave up. I ignored everything.

Maybe you should get hostile. It's what bullies like him understand. It stop reacting at all. Give him nothing.


----------



## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> Why can't he take the hint? I do not want to talk to him!


Here's the deal with assholes like your husband: They DON'T WANT to take a hint. Until, and unless you are willing to kick some serious ass here, he will continue. Not only will he continue, but he WILL escalate.



Erudite said:


> I am not trying to be hostile I am trying to stay sane.


So do you equate hostility with insanity? My take on this is you have far too much emotionally invested as being seen as a "nice" person. To hell with that! You are dealing with a man who has no problems telling neighbors you are "mentally ill." C'mon .... get tough, tell him to f--off, and slam the hammer down on him. Why would you care in the least bit what this jerk thinks of you? He certainly doesn't have a problem smearing your name to anyone who will listen.

Like it or not, this is where you need to get an attorney involved. Me? I'd block him on my phone and on all my social media. Send him one last message, letting him know anything he has to say can go through your attorney. If this makes you scared, nervous, or hesitant, I assure you I speak from experience. When I got tough and let my abuser know I really meant business, he backed down.

Please get this no good loser out of your life. Now.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Divorce him so you can separate your finances from him for good because he has a huge liability and very irresponsible. He very well may owe you money for having to carry him all this time and the children.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> He can take the hint. He chooses not to because his goal is to harass you until you break and let him in. He's employing abuser tactics to wear you down.
> 
> My ex sent texts and emails too until he finally gave up. I ignored everything.
> 
> Maybe you should get hostile. It's what bullies like him understand. It stop reacting at all. Give him nothing.


I can't beat him at his own game. I can only be me. Sometimes I have a snappy reply but for the most part I just let silence do the talking. It doesn't stop the text bombs or ranting emails but it helps me keep my emotions in check.


----------



## Erudite

I am going to talk to my domestic abuse advocate maybe they have lawyers pro bono or something. I already filled out paperwork to get filing fees waived anyway. If I didnt have children with him I would block him in a heart beat. 

I cant let him make me something I am not. I am not mean or hostile or hateful. I still want him to do well for himself. I actually like who I am when I don't listen to his lies. And I am building a support network now that I am being 100% honest about my situation. You guys, for one, my neighbors, old friends, co workers..

I did ask for temp orders on child support ( not that he will pay), sole use of vehicle if possible, and limits on visitation ( away from home and no over nights).


----------



## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> I can't beat him at his own game. I can only be me. Sometimes I have a snappy reply but for the most part I just let silence do the talking. It doesn't stop the text bombs or ranting emails but it helps me keep my emotions in check.


I wasn't suggesting you be nasty and manipulative....I am suggesting you play hardball.

You're already doing it by getting a restraining order, having him served, and telling your grown son that he's free to leave. That's how you handle it.

As for the texts and emails you'll have to either block him, ignore all of them, or just wait them out. I went through the sane thing.

You do everything you can to block everything, including keep your neighbors informed if that's how he wants to play.

If I was a nastier person I would've told my ex to shove his ****ty toupee up his ass, but I wasn't going to lower myself 🤣

I laugh now and one day so will you.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> I wasn't suggesting you be nasty and manipulative....I am suggesting you play hardball.
> 
> You're already doing it by getting a restraining order, having him served, and telling your grown son that he's free to leave. That's how you handle it.
> 
> As for the texts and emails you'll have to either block him, ignore all of them, or just wait them out. I went through the sane thing.
> 
> You do everything you can to block everything, including keep your neighbors informed if that's how he wants to play.
> 
> If I was a nastier person I would've told my ex to shove his ****ty toupee up his ass, but I wasn't going to lower myself 🤣
> 
> I laugh now and one day so will you.


That's too funny about the toupee. 😜 I know I need to toughen up . Its a very uncomfortable feeling ( yet another thing I hate him for) I still have to remind myself over and over that I am reacting apprppriately to HIS choices.


----------



## Erudite

About the restraining order, what should I say? Wont leave me alone isnt grounds. .


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## lifeistooshort

Document that he stands un your doorway and won't let you close the door. Keep all communications where he harassed you, is nasty, or threatens you. Tell them you don't feel safe when he parks YOUR car across the street and monitors you and that you can't walk to work without him following you and harassing you to get in the car. Also bring up his drinking

Start calling the police more often so you'll have records to present.

He will likely stop eventually but he's going to bully any way he can to see if something works.

Why don't you get a voice activated recorder for whenever he harasses you? Would your neighbor be willing to testify about what he's said to her?


----------



## MattMatt

Erudite said:


> I really hate being this person. Cops and courts and fights. Why can't I be like Gwyneth Paltrow and have a nice friendly divorce! 😔


Sure Gwyneth had a nice, friendly divorce! After all, that's what she had her press agents tell us!


----------



## Affaircare

Erudite said:


> About the restraining order, what should I say? Wont leave me alone isnt grounds. .


This little document explains pretty clearly what to write on an RO statement: http://www.solutionsfdl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Tips-for-Writing-a-Statement.pdf

I'd follow those directions to a T.

I strongly encourage you to speak to your domestic abuse advocate. They will help you find words but also navigate the whole system...just answering questions!

Finally, here's a site I have always loved about Verbal Abuse: Welcome to Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse Site|Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site)! I like it because it's got a cat on it, and somehow that makes it feel so much less scary (even though verbal abuse is scary!). Next to the Home page, there's the Verbal Abuse page with a bunch of articles that will help you figure out if it's verbal/emotional/mental abuse and find words to describe what has happened to you. Just read.  

Now for fun, I'll tell you my story with my exH. We divorced more than 20 years ago, so it's ancient history for me now, but at the time it was just awful. I was in my later 30s, we'd been married 15 years, we had 2 kids in elementary school and a business, and he diagnosed bipolar and borderline personality disorders. He was also a serial cheater; I had no idea. I discovered and waffled for like 2 years, but finally the day came that we separated. But in his mind, he could come and go in my house any time he wanted. I changed the locks, but he'd break in. Like "breaking and entering" break in! One time he just did random damage to the house--to show me he could get into the house any time he wanted. That was the first time I called the police, just so it was reported somewhere. The next time he broke in, he was screaming and screaming and screaming at me, and I said to him 17 TIMES "If you don't leave I'm calling the police." He wouldn't leave!!! I told him I was dialing 911. I called for the police. They came and had to handcuff him and everything because he wouldn't leave. And then, guess what he did? He was mad AT ME for giving him a police record. I kid you not! It wasn't him breaking into my house (not his house mind you...my house). I wasn't him damaging my property. It wasn't him choosing to stay despite my telling him 17 TIMES I would call the police. Nope. I gave him the police record. LOL 

@Erudite keep staying firm. You don't have to be nasty or a jerk. You be you, who is a kind and gentle lady. But the fact that you have ANY boundary whatsoever will drive him nuts. He'll accuse you of every name in the book because you have a boundary. Well you know what? Boundaries are healthy. You just keep on going. You're doing well.


----------



## Blondilocks

Why does he have his truck and your car?


----------



## Erudite

Blondilocks said:


> Why does he have his truck and your car?


I call it my car because I was driving an uninspected car for years. I tried to learn to drive his truck, a stick shift, but kept burning out the clutch. Finally my tax returns came in and stimulous money. I found a car I liked and told him about the car. He went out while I was at work and bought it "for me". With my money. As a gift. That was conveniently in his name only. Now since his truck is too cramped to live out of and my car is in his name he has taken the keys and threatens me with stealing if I try to take the keys back. He puts the seats down in thr back andvsleeps in the lot right outside my house.


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## Blondilocks

Talk to your attorney about the car. Do you have keys to the truck? Is your name on it? Tell him you need the car because you have to be able to get your kid to the doctor or dentist and pickup groceries. No judge is going to be thrilled that your jerk of a husband left you and your kid without transportation. Tell him that. And, damn it, start thinking!


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## Erudite

Blondilocks said:


> Talk to your attorney about the car. Do you have keys to the truck? Is your name on it? Tell him you need the car because you have to be able to get your kid to the doctor or dentist and pickup groceries. No judge is going to be thrilled that your jerk of a husband left you and your kid without transportation. Tell him that. And, damn it, start thinking!


Oh I put that in my paperwork alright. He can drive his truck or motorcycle. My car was my only mode of transport and I had to share with my son so he could work too. Now we have to tell him our schedules and get rides from him. Which I refuse. I would rather walk the hour to work than get in a car with him. He says I can use the truck that is packed with crap and clearly nevwr really learned oh and is uninspected!!


----------



## Erudite

Filed for the separation. The police report isnt ready yet. Picked up the restraining order to look over because no time before work. God I hate this.


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## Openminded

Yes, he’s counting on the fact that you hate this. He doesn’t. He’s more than willing to play brinkmanship — and enjoys it — so you’ll have to really toughen up. Some people are capable of anything.


----------



## Blondilocks

What do you mean when you say a vehicle is uninspected? Is it registered? License up to date?


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## Erudite

He has three vehickes all in his name. Supposedly they are "ours" but convenietly his when he wants them to be. He has a registered uninspected truck, a registered motorcycle, and my car which is fully legal but in his name. He wants me to use the illegal truck I can barely drive, and I dont have a motorcycle license.


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## Erudite

Openminded said:


> Yes, he’s counting on the fact that you hate this. He doesn’t. He’s more than willing to play brinkmanship — and enjoys it — so you’ll have to really toughen up. Some people are capable of anything.


And he does it ever so calmly and is super charming to everyone else. It makes me look like a psycho.


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## hinterdir

Erudite said:


> A little back story. I moved out with my children 5 months ago. My ex was in a dispute with the landlord at the time. I had been paying all the rent as my ex was unemployed with no benefits for 3 years. I never once missed a payment nor missed a payment for untilities. Previously we lost our own house and evicted from our next home due to my husbands chronic unemployment. I found a good job, got certified in my field, and seemed to be able to keep things afloat. Even during covid. Then my ex got into it with the landlord anx even though their was no qualm with me or the children wanted us out because of him. It was the final straw. In addition to years of physical, emotional, and financial abuse he was getting us thrown out...again.
> 
> Before we could be evicted I managed to find my own place and moved. This new place is temporary. Money is tight, but rent gets paid on time etc etc. I told him he was not welcome to live in my new home. My ex had no choice but to stay in the old place and fought the land lord in court. He lost. He is appealing. He is still not working. I do not know what his finances look like. I pay his cell bill because it was a family plan under my name and I want the kids to be able to contact their Dad.
> 
> It has been 5 months since I moved. I feel incredibly guilty. He has had a couple of interviews but things haven't panned out for him. He resents me. He has lost weight, been drinking more. I don't now what to do.Do I offer to let him stay with us? ( I don't want to) Do I let him become homless? And if I do that what to do about visitation? Any advice would be welcome. Thank you.


He is your ex. 
He is not your responsibility. Your kids are. 

Move on.


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## Openminded

Erudite said:


> And he does it ever so calmly and is super charming to everyone else. It makes me look like a psycho.


That’s how people like him always operate. The crazy stuff is saved for family behind closed doors. They want (need) everyone else to believe they’re great and they’ll go out of their way to make sure that happens. I have someone just like him in my extended family. They are hard-core users and they look for enablers.


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> And he does it ever so calmly and is super charming to everyone else. It makes me look like a psycho.


I'd bet he doesn't fool as many people as you think.

My ex was super concerned with his phony nice guy image but I found after the divorce a lot of people were on to him.

Don't mistake people's reluctance to get involved for them actually buying his act.


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> That's too funny about the toupee. 😜 I know I need to toughen up . Its a very uncomfortable feeling ( yet another thing I hate him for) I still have to remind myself over and over that I am reacting apprppriately to HIS choices.


Here's another laugh for you:

My older son and I ran into him at Walmarr a couple of years ago. Son had grown his hair out.....he has nice thick strawberry tinted hair like his mom 😀

Ex looked at him and in that sarcastic tone paired with a phony smile which is his MO, he said "nice hair".

Let me tell you had badly I wanted to respond with "nice hair"....and I wouldn't have had a phony smile on my face.

Maybe if it happened again I will respond i kind. I did tell him to **** off during another run in 😀


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## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> I'd bet he doesn't fool as many people as you think.
> 
> My ex was super concerned with his phony nice guy image but I found after the divorce a lot of people were on to him.
> 
> Don't mistake people's reluctance to get involved for them actually buying his act.


Well he thought his nice guy image was going to save him from eviction. The judge caught on to him fast enough. He tried the nice guy thing on my neighbor and she saw through it. Most people saw it by I was so blinded and thought for the longest time, it must be me cuz he ist like that with anyone else. Thays half the reason I dont want to talk face to face because he puts me in that head space.


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## Erudite

Openminded said:


> That’s how people like him always operate. The crazy stuff is saved for family behind closed doors. They want (need) everyone else to believe they’re great and they’ll go out of their way to make sure that happens. I have someone just like him in my extended family. They are hard-core users and they look for enablers.


 No one would ever believe he would threaten to kill me. But he did last year. And it STILL took a year to leave!!


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## Affaircare

Erudite said:


> No one would ever believe he would threaten to kill me. But he did last year. And it STILL took a year to leave!!


#1 that little tidbit should pretty much be included in the RO paperwork. If you have proof, all the better, but even if it was just said, at least include it and the date it happened as best you remember. 

#2 I'm 59yo and because I've seen a thing or two, I see right through people like this (male and female)--lots of us do! In fact, many judges have seen a thing or two also, especially regarding domestic violence and abuse. Now, not all judges are good. Obviously some are corrupt and some are just bad people! But many have at least seen enough abusers and excuses to see through this kind of malarchy and be somewhat fair. 

See, judges don't rule based on "justice" because true justice would be to recompense you for the abuse you've suffered. No, judges rule based on the law, based on whether they're having a bad day, based on just splitting things 50/50, based on certain legal criteria, and based on clearing cases off their desk! 

So in the RO you discuss the threats...and in the temporary orders for the legal separation, you ask the judge to specify who gets which vehicle. The temporary RO will likely come up first--usually they are granted fairly swiftly and not too much "proof" is required to issue "stay away until such date as we can convene in court". At least that way, he won't be able to park by your house anymore! And if he does, call the police and show them the RO. 

Until the temporary orders, you'll likely have to walk to work and so will your son, but boy that will show your son who your STBX is, won't it? Once you're at the temporary orders, usually if there are two people and 3 vehicles, the judge orders something like "He gets X, she gets Y until the trial" because in many US states, a marital asset is a marital asset, even if only his name is on it. 

For now, bide your time. Yep, it sucks, and yet, just think of all that exercise! YAY!


----------



## Prodigal

Erudite said:


> No one would ever believe he would threaten to kill me. But he did last year.


I was wondering if he would escalate to this level after all he's done in the past few weeks. Apparently, he already has. Please don't take any of his threats lightly. My ex never outright threatened me, but when I found an unregistered handgun in his office, I knew it was time for me to take any and all threats seriously. I got out with my life. And my ex? He stopped harassing me when he hooked onto another victim, uh, I mean woman.


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## Erudite

Prodigal said:


> I was wondering if he would escalate to this level after all he's done in the past few weeks. Apparently, he already has. Please don't take any of his threats lightly. My ex never outright threatened me, but when I found an unregistered handgun in his office, I knew it was time for me to take any and all threats seriously. I got out with my life. And my ex? He stopped harassing me when he hooked onto another victim, uh, I mean woman.


Well the separation papers have already been filed. I asked for use of my car, temp child support ( not that he will pay it), and visitation with restrictions. The RO I need to talk with my domestic abuse resource manager..


----------



## Erudite

Low on stamina today, guys. pray for me.


----------



## MJJEAN

Erudite said:


> Low on stamina today, guys. pray for me.


You got this!


----------



## Affaircare

Erudite said:


> Low on stamina today, guys. pray for me.


You know, @Erudite, you don’t have to “charge” every day. Some days it is a victory just to not slide backwards! If you need a rest, it’s okay to take one. Maybe today is a journal day, or a meditation/prayer day, or a day to read and think and learn.


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## Erudite

Affaircare said:


> You know, @Erudite, you don’t have to “charge” every day. Some days it is a victory just to not slide backwards! If you need a rest, it’s okay to take one. Maybe today is a journal day, or a meditation/prayer day, or a day to read and think and learn.


I am working a 12hr day today. Dont get to see my boy, housework is piling up, and the ex just doesnt let up. I appreciate the sentiment. Maybe I can get some Netflix time in tonight. Any suggestions? Lol


----------



## lifeistooshort

Well when you don't work you have a lot of time to harass someone.

Keep moving forward with the restraining order, keep all records of communication, call the police liberally, and otherwise do not engage him.

Won't leave your front door? Not a word...just call the police. Sends harassing texts/emails? Keep them but don't respond.

Remember that these tactics depend on a response from you so that's where your power lies.

He'll eventually find another victim. That's what happened with my friend....ex started to harass her less once he found someone else.


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## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> Well when you don't work you have a lot of time to harass someone.
> 
> Keep moving forward with the restraining order, keep all records of communication, call the police liberally, and otherwise do not engage him.
> 
> Won't leave your front door? Not a word...just call the police. Sends harassing texts/emails? Keep them but don't respond.
> 
> Remember that these tactics depend on a response from you so that's where your power lies.
> 
> He'll eventually find another victim. That's what happened with my friend....ex started to harass her less once he found someone else.


I defer to your wisdom since I have no frame of reference. I am trying really really hard not to say anything to him beyond the bare minimum. I wish I could go completely no contact but that is not possible right now. I dont know how I feel about him finding another woman. Some weird mixture of relief and sadness? Dunno. Right now he is really trying to turn the kids against me. Whatever. Too tired to care right now.


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## Erudite

Update: so you all know that ex has been living out of my car right outside my house since he was evicted. His saga with that landlady is still not over. Apparently SHE has served him with a restraining order. Only she gave the cops MY address as if he is living with me which he most definately is NOT. The cops show up at my door knocking, waking my neighbors at 8 at night. And of course they find him outside. Like what the hell. Now he is pissed. And I am legit worried to file my own order against him. Not afraid physically but who knows what he is liable to do next....my neighbors are pissed too. Uuuuugh!


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## lifeistooshort

Who. Cares. What. He. Does?

File your own order and get him out of there now. Of course your neighbors don't want a bum living in the car on their street.

If you don't file it I can pretty much guarantee he'll end up back in your apt.


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## Erudite

I feel like its a lose lose situation. If I do it then he will have an even harder time getting a job and wanting to use and abuse me even more and the tiny sliver of hope that he will move on will be gone. If I don't even more of the same. I am so very very tired and sad. Really really sad.


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## Openminded

You’re relying far too much on hope. He’s a loser who isn’t ever going to voluntarily do anything with his life besides cling like a leech to you. That’s all he has going for him.


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## LisaDiane

Erudite said:


> I feel like its a lose lose situation. If I do it then he will have an even harder time getting a job and wanting to use and abuse me even more and the tiny sliver of hope that he will move on will be gone. If I don't even more of the same. I am so very very tired and sad. Really really sad.


It IS a lose-lose situation, if you think there is going to be an easy way to pry him out of your life. There is NO easy way. It's all going to be ugly. So you just have to choose what to do based on what you want your FUTURE to look like.

I can tell you that if you don't file, HE WILL NEVER LEAVE. He will have a harder time getting a job...?? He refuses to get one now, so what does that matter? HIS consequences CANNOT matter to you - they are NOT your business!!! He is a highly intelligent adult man...whatever happens to him is what HE is choosing for himself. He is manipulating you like he's always done, and he will continue to do so as long as it keeps getting him what he wants.

Your focus needs to stay on what is better FOR YOU. What gives you the future and consequences that YOU want to live with. I would give him fair warning - leave me alone or I'm going to file, etc - and then follow through if he doesn't stop his disruptive, self-centered behavior. The only way to stop riding this wretched merry-go-round is to GET OFF of it.


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## Affaircare

If I could very slightly modify what @LisaDiane said, I would not "give him fair warning" by saying "leave me alone or I will file an RO" as that tips your hand. If you are so inclined, I would write a letter (so it's in writing and usable as evidence in court) that says "Effective today's date, Nov. 13, 2021, you are not allowed on my property, not allowed in my home, and not allowed to contact me in any way, including speaking to me, writing to me, emailing me, texting me, calling me on the phone, sending private message on any social media, or in any other way. I do not want contact with you." Just like that. State that you do not want him in your life and keep it short. 

He will complain that he "has to" be in touch regarding the kids, but he doesn't!


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## LisaDiane

Affaircare said:


> If I could very slightly modify what @LisaDiane said, I would not "give him fair warning" by saying "leave me alone or I will file an RO" as that tips your hand. If you are so inclined, I would write a letter (so it's in writing and usable as evidence in court) that says "Effective today's date, Nov. 13, 2021, you are not allowed on my property, not allowed in my home, and not allowed to contact me in any way, including speaking to me, writing to me, emailing me, texting me, calling me on the phone, sending private message on any social media, or in any other way. I do not want contact with you." Just like that. State that you do not want him in your life and keep it short.
> 
> He will complain that he "has to" be in touch regarding the kids, but he doesn't!


I will always defer to your experience and understanding!


----------



## Cooper

Erudite said:


> Update: so you all know that ex has been living out of my car right outside my house since he was evicted. His saga with that landlady is still not over. Apparently SHE has served him with a restraining order. Only she gave the cops MY address as if he is living with me which he most definately is NOT. The cops show up at my door knocking, waking my neighbors at 8 at night. And of course they find him outside. Like what the hell. Now he is pissed. And I am legit worried to file my own order against him. Not afraid physically but who knows what he is liable to do next....my neighbors are pissed too. Uuuuugh!



I'm starting to think many of the issues you are dealing with are because you are much to passive. You become paralyzed by indecision because you worry how others will feel or react....your ex, your boys, the police, your neighbors. Empathy is a wonderful trait but it shouldn't be at the sacrifice of your own quality of life.


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## Erudite

My ex told me that I tend to make panic decisions. I wiffle and waffle until something makes me panic and then I do something dumb. I am always doing a . something dumb or breaks my heart. Like after the cops served his Dad RO from the ex landlady papers my younger son came in. His Dad tried to follow and my son was paniced. No, Dad, you can't come in. Mom will be mad. His Dad left. I hate doing this to him. I am trying to protect him but its not working. I am trying to do the hard things, really, I just don't want to be so muddleheaded all the time and its all my own fault. I mean you guys are practically giving me an instruction manual and I keep messing up.


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## Anastasia6

Erudite said:


> My ex told me that I tend to make panic decisions. I wiffle and waffle until something makes me panic and then I do something dumb. I am always doing a . something dumb or breaks my heart. Like after the cops served his Dad RO from the ex landlady papers my younger son came in. His Dad tried to follow and my son was paniced. No, Dad, you can't come in. Mom will be mad. His Dad left. I hate doing this to him. I am trying to protect him but its not working. I am trying to do the hard things, really, I just don't want to be so muddleheaded all the time and its all my own fault. I mean you guys are practically giving me an instruction manual and I keep messing up.


Don't beat yourself up. Just keep him out of the apartment. Get a RO of your own when you can. You are doing great. Please give yourself a break. Remember it will take a little while but life does get better when you lose the dead weight.


----------



## m.t.t

Erudite said:


> My ex told me that I tend to make panic decisions. I wiffle and waffle until something makes me panic and then I do something dumb. I am always doing a . something dumb or breaks my heart. Like after the cops served his Dad RO from the ex landlady papers my younger son came in. His Dad tried to follow and my son was paniced. No, Dad, you can't come in. Mom will be mad. His Dad left. I hate doing this to him. I am trying to protect him but its not working. I am trying to do the hard things, really, I just don't want to be so muddleheaded all the time and its all my own fault. I mean you guys are practically giving me an instruction manual and I keep messing up.


ok this way of thinking is because you have been in an abusive relationship far too long. You are believing his version of you. This is not who you are! Dig deep and realize that you have balls an you are mighty! He is trying to reel you back, he has kept you small and doubting yourself so he could keep you for all of those years. 

You are not muddleheaded. You are not all wiffle waffle. You have been fed a line and you believe it. I'm here to tell you that you are strong and smart and savvy.


----------



## Erudite

m.t.t said:


> ok this way of thinking is because you have been in an abusive relationship far too long. You are believing his version of you. This is not who you are! Dig deep and realize that you have balls an you are mighty! He is trying to reel you back, he has kept you small and doubting yourself so he could keep you for all of those years.
> 
> You are not muddleheaded. You are not all wiffle waffle. You have been fed a line and you believe it. I'm here to tell you that you are strong and smart and savvy.


Thank you. I am trying to be strong and smart and savvy. But it doesn't feel natural. I don't want to slip back into old patterns but sometimes, alot of times, I slip back without realizing. Old habits die hard. Especially when you don't remember any other way of being...


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## Erudite

Update: I feal like a real piece of crap since it is the day before Thanksgiving but I filed, and was granted, a temp restraining order this morning. You guys kept telling me he is just going to keep pushing and he finally pushed me too far these past 2 days. I called my domestic violence caseworker and she went with me. Plus she is going to set me up with a lawyer. Uuuuuuuugh!


----------



## Openminded

I know it’s difficult but you have to stay the course because he will take over your life otherwise.


----------



## lifeistooshort

That feeling is used against you....abusers see that as weakness and exploit it.

You did what you had to do.


----------



## Erudite

They did NOT grant me exclusive use of the car. They did grant me custody with no visitation. Which if its my only transportation how am I going to work or do errands. And now I can't just work out a schedule like the car is a kid because no contact. My head hurts. And I bawled like a baby.


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## Affaircare

@Erudite, 

I suspect you weren't granted exclusive use of the car because there's enough paperwork to make it questionable exactly whose car it is. In other words, if X, Y, and Z paperwork show it's his, it's at minimum "in question" so no judge is going to make a decision in a temporary RO hearing. There'd have to be evidence presented, and most likely even that evidence will be focused on the restraining part...not the details of the divorce. For now, the custody without visitation is just to literally restrain him from ANY contact with you in any way...until there can be a trial. 

So to go to work and do errands you can: a) walk, b) bike, c) take the bus, d) borrow a car from your family, e) rent a car, f) take a taxi or uber. Honestly, I've done all six! I lived a mile from the nearest Walmart and grocery store, so I rode the bus to work, rode the bus toward home and got off at the grocery store or Walmart, bought what I needed, and walked home. Yeah, I remember feeling sad--walking home carrying groceries in the dark--but I also remember feeling free and feeling at peace. While I walked home, I enjoyed the homes, met neighbors, saw beautiful flowers, and realized I lived in a neat place. Sometimes, when I had too much to carry, I called an uber and paid $5 for the lift ... plus a tip. 

I'm not saying it will be easy, but you CAN do this, and it's only for a short time. It will be inconvenient. But then, you'll find a way to get a car of your own, and he will NEVER, EVER be able to strand you without transportation again, because it will be YOURS. You can take that away from him and take back your own power.


----------



## Erudite

Its reassuring to know other people have done it. I dont know if walking that way would bring me peace in the way it did you but honestly? Not much has changed from before so. Yeah. My caseworker is helping me find a way to get my own car. I may even have one by the end of Saturday. I might even be able to get it delivered to me! How crazy is that??? I should have called her sooner. Story of my life...shoulda done it sooner and avoided this big mess. Maybe I could have avoided the RO. Maybe maybe maybe...

My older son is stressed. Says I over reached and screwed us over. Thinks he will be asked to testify in court which he doesnt want to screw either of us. Or worse thinks the judge will take his brother from both of us. 

Youngest, as usual, is rolling with the flow. I explained he wouldnt be seeing Dad for a few weeks because a judge is giving us a big time out and telling us to play nice and not talk to each other. Plus it will give his Dad time to sort his life without fighting with me. He seems content with that. I am sure his Dad will tell him first chance he gets how mean Mom kept them apart but so far his Dad is respecting the RO so maybe this doesnt have to get super ugly.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Your oldest son doesn't know what he's talking about. He's looking for the path of least resistance which involves placating his father. He doesn't have the life experience to know that's much worse long term. And he doesn't get to decide this...he's a grown man living with you.

No judge is taking your son away. Yoir ex is sleeping in his freaking car and harassing you. If he actually gets a decent place a judge will give him joint custody or visitation, and even then the exchange can be supervised of there's a RO.

This is actually the best chance your ex has to get himself together....if he can't harass you. That is the path of least resistance for him as well, so ironically in that sense it's the sane as your son.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> Its reassuring to know other people have done it. I dont know if walking that way would bring me peace in the way it did you but honestly? Not much has changed from before so. Yeah. My caseworker is helping me find a way to get my own car. I may even have one by the end of Saturday. I might even be able to get it delivered to me! How crazy is that??? I should have called her sooner. Story of my life...shoulda done it sooner and avoided this big mess. Maybe I could have avoided the RO. Maybe maybe maybe...
> 
> My older son is stressed. Says I over reached and screwed us over. Thinks he will be asked to testify in court which he doesnt want to screw either of us. Or worse thinks the judge will take his brother from both of us.
> 
> Youngest, as usual, is rolling with the flow. I explained he wouldnt be seeing Dad for a few weeks because a judge is giving us a big time out and telling us to play nice and not talk to each other. Plus it will give his Dad time to sort his life without fighting with me. He seems content with that. I am sure his Dad will tell him first chance he gets how mean Mom kept them apart but so far his Dad is respecting the RO so maybe this doesnt have to get super ugly.


Not surprised. He's happy to bully you as long as you take it, but when faced with actual legal consequences he backs down.


----------



## Rus47

Erudite said:


> He was a Marine long before he met me. I was 20. He was 30. He would never talk about it. Just like he would never talk about previous girlfriends. I know he wasn't lying about joining but I don't know how long he stayed in. I don't know anything including why or how he was discharged. I feel like if it was a positive experience he would have talked about it. I am guessing it wasn't.
> 
> I can put him in touch with my resource person but would it be too little too late? Housing is so tight where I live. There is only like 1.7% opening rate. Waiting lists are long and rents are high. Where do I draw the line?


If he was in combat he will only discuss it with other combat vets. No one else understands. PTSD more common than appreciated.


----------



## Openminded

If anyone should be worried about custody rulings, it’s your husband.


----------



## Openminded

Who knows — he may have been discharged from the military for not fitting in or whatever. I don’t think that would be a huge surprise given his behavior. I didn’t realize you were so young when you met him and he was 10 years older with a lot more life experience than you.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> Your oldest son doesn't know what he's talking about. He's looking for the path of least resistance which involves placating his father. He doesn't have the life experience to know that's much worse long term. And he doesn't get to decide this...he's a grown man living with you.
> 
> No judge is taking your son away. Yoir ex is sleeping in his freaking car and harassing you. If he actually gets a decent place a judge will give him joint custody or visitation, and even then the exchange can be supervised of there's a RO.
> 
> This is actually the best chance your ex has to get himself together....if he can't harass you. That is the path of least resistance for him as well, so ironically in that sense it's the sane as your son.


I tried explaining to my son that I have plenty of documentation and professionals supporting me so no matter what his Dad says I am not going down without a fight. He says I am overconfident. I said we will see. Now his Dad cant make me angry or stressed daily and then I dont have to put my kids in the middle of that toxicity every day. No more venting about his fathers latest maneuverings, no more anxiety about what he will say or do next...it is good for the kids even if they dont realize it.


----------



## Erudite

Openminded said:


> Who knows — he may have been discharged from the military for not fitting in or whatever. I don’t think that would be a huge surprise given his behavior. I didn’t realize you were so young when you met him and he was 10 years older with a lot more life experience than you.


I am in my 40s and my ex has been my one and only intimate partner. Never been with another man. Was faithful throughout our marriage too. I thought he was so mysterious and protective


----------



## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> I tried explaining to my son that I have plenty of documentation and professionals supporting me so no matter what his Dad says I am not going down without a fight. He says I am overconfident. I said we will see. Now his Dad cant make me angry or stressed daily and then I dont have to put my kids in the middle of that toxicity every day. No more venting about his fathers latest maneuverings, no more anxiety about what he will say or do next...it is good for the kids even if they dont realize it.


Your son is operating from a place of anxiety....his father's bullying is affecting him too.
.
Besides....your ex has left you little choice. You're doing what you have to do and the chips will fall. That is what you tell him.....your only other option is to let him back in and continue to abuse you.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> Your son is operating from a place of anxiety....his father's bullying is affecting him too.
> .
> Besides....your ex has left you little choice. You're doing what you have to do and the chips will fall. That is what you tell him.....your only other option is to let him back in and continue to abuse you.


Oh for sure! And he still has his own troubles apart from his core family. Unfortunately he is long past the age or stage where he has blind trust in Mom, like his little brother.


----------



## Openminded

Erudite said:


> I am in my 40s and my ex has been my one and only intimate partner. Never been with another man. Was faithful throughout our marriage too. I thought he was so mysterious and protective


Many of us have been to pulled in by someone who wasn’t what we thought. It’s what you do about that in the long-term that matters. You’re on the right path now.


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## Erudite

Well now I feel like crap. Apparently ex was going to get housing through VA if he had son for overnights. My order says no visitation so he cant get the apartment... I feel like a lot of my issues would have been if not solved then at least mitigated a bit. What do I do? Drop the order? There is housing for him about 2 hrs away from me for just him but he wont take it.


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## Erudite

It feels like this is all snowballing!


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## lifeistooshort

If you drop the order he will start harassing you again. 

Let him figure it out and stop trying to save him. He's a grown ass man.


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## Openminded

No to dropping the order. That’s his problem, not yours, if he doesn’t want to be two hours away. He can presumably find a job there. It’s only snowballing if you let it — this is on him. How did you find out he was turned down?


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## Erudite

It was just bad timing! I had barely gotten the order granted and he hadnt been served yet when I got the text saying he needed proof of visitation from me and the other offer 2 hrs away.. Of course I never responded because the order. My older son has no restriction on visiting his Dad, obviously, and has seen his Dad. Son is very sad. Didnt say anything but I can put 2 and 2 together.


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## Erudite

I mean he gets the place and he doesnt need the car to sleep in, he has access to son again because I never wanted to separate them in the first place, and he has a home base as it were to look for a stable job...


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## Erudite

To be clear I am guessing on the 2hr one because he is still here.


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## Openminded

You have allowed him to make his problems your problems and obviously that doesn’t benefit you. If he can’t cope with his life, that’s on him. Two hours away would be a good distance between the two of you and allow you some breathing room but my guess is he doesn’t want it because he wants to pressure you with his continued presence. It isn’t like he has a job keeping him in that spot.


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## Affaircare

@Erudite ,

If you drop the order, he can live nearby and start to pressure and manipulate you again. Plus, pretty much no court will give you another RO when you’ve dropped one. That means you have no way to enforce him not bothering you. He’ll get the VA place, keep harassing you, and you’ll have backed yourself into a corner.

On the other hand, if he gets the place 2 hours away, the courts can enforce him not bothering you, he’ll have a place, he’ll be able to visit the children, and essentially all issues are solved EXCEPT he will be forced to not bother you.

THAT is the only issue right now. He is trying every trick in the book to pressure you to drop the RO so he can harass you again. Is he back out front again? If so, call the police!

Remember, it is not “you” being mean to him…it is society, a judge, and THE LAW saying he has gone too far and he must do this.


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## Erudite

Affaircare said:


> @Erudite ,
> 
> If you drop the order, he can live nearby and start to pressure and manipulate you again. Plus, pretty much no court will give you another RO when you’ve dropped one. That means you have no way to enforce him not bothering you. He’ll get the VA place, keep harassing you, and you’ll have backed yourself into a corner.
> 
> On the other hand, if he gets the place 2 hours away, the courts can enforce him not bothering you, he’ll have a place, he’ll be able to visit the children, and essentially all issues are solved EXCEPT he will be forced to not bother you.
> 
> THAT is the only issue right now. He is trying every trick in the book to pressure you to drop the RO so he can harass you again. Is he back out front again? If so, call the police!
> 
> Remember, it is not “you” being mean to him…it is society, a judge, and THE LAW saying he has gone too far and he must do this.


No he hasnt been out front. He has been good about the order. I am afraid I might have created a situation where he feels backed into a corner. Its easy to say its the law but it was me who took it to this next level. He was trying to do the right thing with the VA and its like I am taking away his options one at a time. We see what he is capable of when he thinks he has the upper hand, but what if he feels like he has nothing left to lose? At the same time you are all right about dropping the order, plus he will be pissed at me for that too. I have no choice but to keep it at least in part. Is there any way to modify the order so he can have regular visitation with overnights being granted upon housing approval? Something he could show the VA? This isnt an attempt to fix his problem. Its an attempt to fix MY problem. And, instead of having an RO be whats forcing him to behave in the future, just have it be the court papers for the separation? I mean the court has great leeway in these matters.


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## Erudite

Should I stay completely no contact. Or ask that communication only be through court approved channels as far as joint custody is concerned? Should I be applying for full custody? I guess what I am saying is there is alot of overlap as far as the protective order is concerned and the separation. I know the protective order takes precedence when deciding the separation agreement. I dont even know if I am making sense. 

I also plan on being honest with the judge and telling him that because of the past abuse I am having difficulty telling the difference between acts of good faith (it will be easier with cooperation from both sides) and manipulation on his part.


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## Diana7

I greatly admire those like you who want to act decently and fairly in a divorce. So many just want to cause hurt and get revenge and that helps no one, especially when there are children.


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## Cooper

Do you truly believe the guy has a chance at housing? After all the BS why do you think he is being honest? I sure wouldn't bet my last dollar on his story being truthful, could easily be more minipulation. Even if he is being truthful it's still his own fault for not being more proactive from the start, he chose to live in his car and fight with you instead of taking care of business, now he has to deal with the consequences, don't blame uourself.


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## Erudite

Diana7 said:


> I greatly admire those like you who want to act decently and fairly in a divorce. So many just want to cause hurt and get revenge and that helps no one, especially when there are children.


If you could see how much my little boy loves his father. If you could hear the confusion in his voice when he asks why Daddy can't stay with us. If you could see the stress lines on my grown son's face and how he helps with brother and tries to be a good role model for him and a good son to me...(most of the time) And in some small way, I even still love their Dad. I just want everyone to be happy. That has never changed from the moment I met their Dad and the days they were born, through all the hell, I ALWAYS wanted their happiness more than anything in the world. I always thought I had to give up my happiness so they could be happy. I know that isnt true now.


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## Erudite

Cooper said:


> Do you truly believe the guy has a chance at housing? After all the BS why do you think he is being honest? I sure wouldn't bet my last dollar on his story being truthful, could easily be more minipulation. Even if he is being truthful it's still his own fault for not being more proactive from the start, he chose to live in his car and fight with you instead of taking care of business, now he has to deal with the consequences, don't blame uourself.


This is exactly what I mean here! How do I tell truth from lies? I have always been the girl who does the right thing or at least tries to the best of my ability. I am a big rule follower. To not follow the rules gives me major anxiety. Other people not playing fair makes needing rules more necessary rather than less. I think he is telling the truth, but I can't risk it.


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## lifeistooshort

Right now you are teaching your sons how to treat the women in their lives.

If 5 pounds of sugar made him happy now would you go for it?

It is not ok to accept abuse because a 10 year old doesn't understand. What he does understand so far is that dad treats mom like ****, won't work, and drinks a lot and mom has always put up with it. He doesn't understand why that doesn't continue.

Sometimes you have to think long term where your kids are concerned.


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> This is exactly what I mean here! How do I tell truth from lies? I have always been the girl who does the right thing or at least tries to the best of my ability. I am a big rule follower. To not follow the rules gives me major anxiety. Other people not playing fair makes needing rules more necessary rather than less. I think he is telling the truth, but I can't risk it.



You assume that everything which requires you to abandon healthy boundaries is a lie.

Stop trying to save a grown ass man because a 10 year old doesn't understand. You are the adult here.


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## Diana7

Erudite said:


> If you could see how much my little boy loves his father. If you could hear the confusion in his voice when he asks why Daddy can't stay with us. If you could see the stress lines on my grown son's face and how he helps with brother and tries to be a good role model for him and a good son to me...(most of the time) And in some small way, I even still love their Dad. I just want everyone to be happy. That has never changed from the moment I met their Dad and the days they were born, through all the hell, I ALWAYS wanted their happiness more than anything in the world. I always thought I had to give up my happiness so they could be happy. I know that isnt true now.


I totally understand. I was always the same with my three children. Always always put them first.


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## Affaircare

@Erudite,

You have a lot of questions, but I strongly recommend two things:

1) Do not attempt to “change” the RO in any way. It’s just for a few weeks until a permanent trial date. Right now, for both your ex and you, it is in your best interest to be 100% no contact. Here’s why: HE is used to being able to abuse and manipulate you, and 2-3 weeks without ANY contact will help create distance and begin disentangling. YOU are used to being abused and manipulated, and 2-3 weeks without abuse will feel unnatural to you, but that’s only because abuse feels natural. You also need time to break the habit of allowing yourself to be abused. Take this time apart to learn how quiet peace is—let drama bypass you and don’t invite it.

2) Contact your case worker or whatever she is called. Tell her about what is going on. See, you are acting and reacting out of the habit of allowing the abuse to continue, but since you’ve always been cut off from others, you question your own self. If you speak to you case worker, s/he can confirm you’re thinking clearly or not, and can advise you based on experience. They could also probably suggest a nearby abused-partner support group. Once you get with others who’ve also been treated like this, it becomes clearer and easier to identify.

P.S. I also admire your desire to behave peacefully and amicably. I believe that’s one of your strongest traits! Yet that doesn’t mean “all people” will treat you that way, nor does it mean you need to be used in order to be liked. You can be kind and also allow someone to experience the natural results of their choices 😊


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## Blondilocks

Neither of your sons understands mental illness. I would explain that Daddy needs to sort some problems by himself and living with Mommy doesn't help Daddy to do that. Stress that you want Daddy to get well and you have to let him go so that he can get mentally healthy.


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## Erudite

BOUGHT A CAR!!!!!


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## Openminded

👍


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## Affaircare

Erudite said:


> BOUGHT A CAR!!!!!


This is GREAT news!!! Now you can transport yourself AND it can’t be used as a weapon against you! GOOD JOB!!


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## Erudite

I am kinda in shock. I barely have 2 pennies to rub together now but I have never felt more free.


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## Erudite

Oh and I figured out where he was getting at least some of his money. He was intercepting the monthly CTC from Biden.


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## Affaircare

Huh? I wonder what your sons would think of that? See, this is why I admire you. You could destroy his relationship with his children if they knew things like that. And yet you choose to not bad mouth him. They are smart boys—they’ll figure it out on their own.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Erudite said:


> _*Oh and I figured out where he was getting at least some of his money. He was intercepting the monthly CTC from Biden.*_


That's not _from_ Biden. It's from *US*, the taxpayers. This is just Brandon giving away even more of our tax dollars because he just can't seem to stop handing it out to everyone - foreign or domestic.

OP, I really hope you've stopped allowing your parasite ex to continue feeding off you. Sooner or later you have to face reality.


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## Resu

Erudite said:


> No one wants a middle age woman like me with a life like mine. At least no one who isn't like him.


I really think this is NOT true.
You are doing a great job with your life now and it is really early days. I know it is hard. Don't under value yourself.


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## lifeistooshort

Affaircare said:


> Huh? I wonder what your sons would think of that? See, this is why I admire you. You could destroy his relationship with his children if they knew things like that. And yet you choose to not bad mouth him. They are smart boys—they’ll figure it out on their own.


Absolutely. My kids dad and I get along well these days but it wasn't always so. They are very close to me....ex was gone with the military a lot but even beyond that wasn't a terribly involved parent.

I could've easily wrecked their relationships with him but I did not...just kept my boundaries in place.

They're grown now and they figured out who he is on their own. They love him but they know who they can count on.


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## Erudite

Affaircare said:


> Huh? I wonder what your sons would think of that? See, this is why I admire you. You could destroy his relationship with his children if they knew things like that. And yet you choose to not bad mouth him. They are smart boys—they’ll figure it out on their own.


They over hear things sometimes but I try not to rant and rave if I talk to a caseworker or the court or something. And I do have a mean streak with ex sometimes. When I told him I was asking for child support (before the RO) he flipped out. I told him I didnt expect that he would ( cuz he can't) but he SHOULD and that someday my son would ask, and I wouldn't lie.



She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's not _from_ Biden. It's from *US*, the taxpayers. This is just Brandon giving away even more of our tax dollars because he just can't seem to stop handing it out to everyone - foreign or domestic.
> 
> OP, I really hope you've stopped allowing your parasite ex to continue feeding off you. Sooner or later you have to face reality.


Not 100%. Still paying phone bill. But for the most part, yes. It is still hard. Especially knowing now that there is never going back. He will never forgive me, which hurts alot, but hopefully we can work together later.


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## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> Absolutely. My kids dad and I get along well these days but it wasn't always so. They are very close to me....ex was gone with the military a lot but even beyond that wasn't a terribly involved parent.
> 
> I could've easily wrecked their relationships with him but I did not...just kept my boundaries in place.
> 
> They're grown now and they figured out who he is on their own. They love him but they know who they can count on.


Hope to reach this same space. It's been six months but it feels like a lifetime.


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## Erudite

Resu said:


> I really think this is NOT true.
> You are doing a great job with your life now and it is really early days. I know it is hard. Don't under value yourself.


Ever hear that Queen song I want it all? Yeah, I waited so long for this and I get frustrated with myself. TBH there is a little bit of wanting to rub his nose in it just a little bit. Afterall the "you would have nothing if it werent for me" and "no one else would put up with you" bullcrap.


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## Openminded

He’s a user and you’ve been an enabler. It’s unlikely he will just wake up if you’re not enabling him any longer. He’s likely to continue to be very resentful because he feels you’re to blame for his situation. People like him don’t change. It’s always someone else’s fault.


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## Erudite

Openminded said:


> He’s a user and you’ve been an enabler. It’s unlikely he will just wake up if you’re not enabling him any longer. He’s likely to continue to be very resentful because he feels you’re to blame for his situation. People like him don’t change. It’s always someone else’s fault.


Yes, it has always been someone elses fault. It is almost sad because when court time rolls around I know the odds are against him. Yet he refuses to face reality. I don't get the psychology behind it because I would never lord it over him if he just manned up.


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## jlg07

Erudite said:


> Well now I feel like crap. Apparently ex was going to get housing through VA if he had son for overnights. My order says no visitation so he cant get the apartment... I feel like a lot of my issues would have been if not solved then at least mitigated a bit. What do I do? Drop the order? There is housing for him about 2 hrs away from me for just him but he wont take it.


Him not taking the other housing 2 hours away is on HIM -- NOT you. He is being whiney and trying to manipulate you. Tough that he won't have a place for his son -- who really needs to be away from his bad influence anyway...


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> Hope to reach this same space. It's been six months but it feels like a lifetime.


It took us years....probably close to 7 or 8 years.

And any possibility it could happen will have to involve him standing on his own two feet and you not enabling him.

Time and distance cools things down.


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## Resu

Erudite said:


> Ever hear that Queen song I want it all? Yeah, I waited so long for this and I get frustrated with myself. TBH there is a little bit of wanting to rub his nose in it just a little bit. Afterall the "you would have nothing if it werent for me" and "no one else would put up with you" bullcrap.


Mine was "I Want to Break Free"😊

You are are very honest and open. The sentiments are understandable. Might I just suggest noticing when your thoughts are about him, such as "rubbing his nose in it." compared to when they are about yourself? - I don't mean selfishly just healthily - such as if you said 'I feel good standing on my own two feet." or "I AM an attractive character and a desirable woman (after all😃)'

JSorry if that is a tad intrusive or if it seems nit-picking. It is natural to see yourself in relation to your ex partner. He latched onto you when you were twenty, he was your first and he was with you a long time and with traumatic bonding too. It is just nice to think of you beginning to also see your self more and more in more positive and reasonable ways.

I get the thing with Match as a straw in the wind but I bet you attract a real decent guy in the real world because he sees your character/feels your heart. hope so anyway. Stay strong and lighter will come. 

FWIW. IMHO the ex is a grown man. Getting housing in spite of himself is the main thing.
Being two hours away is not his first preference but it's not the end of the world and must beat sleeping in a car, hanging around like a bad smell. I hope he grows up and sorts himself out mensa genius or not but that's not your problem.


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## Erudite

Resu said:


> Mine was "I Want to Break Free"😊
> 
> You are are very honest and open. The sentiments are understandable. Might I just suggest noticing when your thoughts are about him, such as "rubbing his nose in it." compared to when they are about yourself? - I don't mean selfishly just healthily - such as if you said 'I feel good standing on my own two feet." or "I AM an attractive character and a desirable woman (after all😃)'
> 
> JSorry if that is a tad intrusive or if it seems nit-picking. It is natural to see yourself in relation to your ex partner. He latched onto you when you were twenty, he was your first and he was with you a long time and with traumatic bonding too. It is just nice to think of you beginning to also see your self more and more in more positive and reasonable ways.
> 
> I get the thing with Match as a straw in the wind but I bet you attract a real decent guy in the real world because he sees your character/feels your heart. hope so anyway. Stay strong and lighter will come.
> 
> FWIW. IMHO the ex is a grown man. Getting housing in spite of himself is the main thing.
> Being two hours away is not his first preference but it's not the end of the world and must beat sleeping in a car, hanging around like a bad smell. I hope he grows up and sorts himself out mensa genius or not but that's not your problem.


Is there a song for biting off more than you can chew? Lol. I am told baby steps is the key. Positive self talk is not my forte, clearly. I would also not want to put another person through this drama right now.


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## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> It took us years....probably close to 7 or 8 years.
> 
> And any possibility it could happen will have to involve him standing on his own two feet and you not enabling him.
> 
> Time and distance cools things down.


YEARS! Oh boy...I don't know if I have it in me for more years of this stuff!


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> YEARS! Oh boy...I don't know if I have it in me for more years of this stuff!


It gradually gets better. The key is solid boundaries and distance.

It might he better if he took housing 2 hours away. The distance would he good for him too as he learns to stand on his own 2 feet.


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## LisaDiane

Erudite said:


> YEARS! Oh boy...I don't know if I have it in me for more years of this stuff!


Yes you do...I'll bet you have strength that you don't even realize is in you.


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## Resu

Erudite said:


> Is there a song for biting off more than you can chew? Lol. I am told baby steps is the key.


There was one called One Day at a Time😊... but it was a whiny country Christian thing. Baby steps work. They can take you a long way in year!


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## Erudite

Ex had court date moved up to this Wednesday. So much for my few weeks of relative solitude...


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## Affaircare

@Erudite ,

Not necessarily. Once you show the judge the evidence, I believe a permanent RO will be granted--possibly for a year. You have a TON of evidence of harassment: the fact that you two separated MONTHS ago...the fact that the lease of this dwelling is in your name only...the numerous times you told him in writing and via text that he was NOT going to be living at your home...the numerous times you told him to leave you alone and not enter the premises, and yet he did anyway...the numerous times he slept in his vehicle right outside your doorway...even the way he took away your only mode of transportation just so he could manipulate a way to control you. All of this is strong evidence! All you'll need to do is document ALL THESE TIMES--write them down as a list or put them on a calendar. Make a copy of your lease with your name (not his). Make a copy of whatever agreement you have about separating (if you have something written). Make copies of every text and email telling him he can't live with you. Make copies of every text and email telling him to leave you alone. Put dates of every single time he pushed his way into the house or said the kids invited him or said he "had to" because he had nowhere else to visit the kids, etc. 

All those documents will be evidence!


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## Erudite

Affaircare said:


> @Erudite ,
> 
> Not necessarily. Once you show the judge the evidence, I believe a permanent RO will be granted--possibly for a year. You have a TON of evidence of harassment: the fact that you two separated MONTHS ago...the fact that the lease of this dwelling is in your name only...the numerous times you told him in writing and via text that he was NOT going to be living at your home...the numerous times you told him to leave you alone and not enter the premises, and yet he did anyway...the numerous times he slept in his vehicle right outside your doorway...even the way he took away your only mode of transportation just so he could manipulate a way to control you. All of this is strong evidence! All you'll need to do is document ALL THESE TIMES--write them down as a list or put them on a calendar. Make a copy of your lease with your name (not his). Make a copy of whatever agreement you have about separating (if you have something written). Make copies of every text and email telling him he can't live with you. Make copies of every text and email telling him to leave you alone. Put dates of every single time he pushed his way into the house or said the kids invited him or said he "had to" because he had nowhere else to visit the kids, etc.
> 
> All those documents will be evidence!


Wasnt nervous about tomorrow until now. Just found out that the legal aid I was looking to get wont represent me against him as it is a confict of interest. Apperently they are helping him against ex landlady and even though it has nothing to do with me its a conflict. _sigh_


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## Resu

Re "Wasnt nervous about tomorrow until now. Just found out that the legal aid I was looking to get wont represent me ..,"

Adjournment?
Ask abuse advocate?


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## Erudite

Resu said:


> Re "Wasnt nervous about tomorrow until now. Just found out that the legal aid I was looking to get wont represent me ..,"
> 
> Adjournment?
> Ask abuse advocate?


That WAS through my abuse advocate. I suppose I could ask for a later date but the facts don't change so.. .I expect that he will get visitation but no over nights. The car is his too. MAYBE I can get some money for it later. I will ask the judge to have us communicate by email only and to pick up drop off at a neutral place. Unless his circumstances have changed in the last week I don't see that request as unreasonable. We'll see.


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## Erudite

I would love some child support now that I have a car payment and insurance...


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## Resu

Erudite said:


> That WAS through my abuse advocate. I suppose I could ask for a later date but the facts don't change so.. .I expect that he will get visitation but no over nights. The car is his too. MAYBE I can get some money for it later. I will ask the judge to have us communicate by email only and to pick up drop off at a neutral place. Unless his circumstances have changed in the last week I don't see that request as unreasonable. We'll see.


I had meant can you get an immediate adjournment pending you sorting out new legal representation since you only found out about the conflict the day before? Not a lawyer or an American, just a thought.


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## Affaircare

Erudite said:


> Wasnt nervous about tomorrow until now. Just found out that the legal aid I was looking to get wont represent me against him as it is a confict of interest. Apperently they are helping him against ex landlady and even though it has nothing to do with me its a conflict. _sigh_


So if you go before the judge for the RO, and HE has legal aid and YOU do not, all you need to say is that you ask for a reschedule so you can get your own representation. The judge will grant that because it's truly not fair to have one party with legal help and the other without--huge disadvantage. 

However, for the RO it's highly likely that he'll represent himself and you would be able to represent yourself. Remember, this hearing is ONLY about the Restraining Order (or Protection Order) and nothing else. It's not usually about custody or child support or any of that (for the most part), but rather it is essentially the judge, acting on behalf of society, ordering one person to stop doing XYZ harassing or threatening or manipulative action. 

See, this is not you being mean or spiteful. This is society saying that this kind of treatment is inappropriate. And a JUDGE has a way to enforce it (unlike you)!! So your job is to honestly and fully explain to the judge how you told him to leave you alone, how he's not on the lease and has no right to be there, and why exactly it is that you'd like the judge to order him to stay away from you. Do not base your reasons on he said/she said or on just you talking. Give the judge some EVIDENCE--that means a list of dates and times he was in your home without your permission...or a calendar with all the times he tried to convince you to let him move in...or a print out of every text and email. If you present evidence, and he presents "I never said that" or "That's not what I said" then the judge will believe you! 

You aren't saying "stay away from your children forever" or "you can't be a dad" or "I'll make the kids hate you"--none of that! Nope. You asked him and he refused to do it. So now you are asking for some level of protection, which is okay. The only part the judge will address about custody is essentially, "How can he visit his kids whilst also staying away from you?" S/he might order something like "@Erudite you drop off the child at school and you, Mr. E, you pick up the child from school" or "No overnights until you have a place to live, but you may visit at McD's from X-Y o'clock" ...that kind of thing. 

The place where you'll get some orders about custody and child support, etc. would be an emergency temporary hearing for the Separation/Divorce (can't remember which one you filed). It's a whole different hearing! That one would be the one where the judge says: "Okay, until we can bring this separation/divorce to court, here's how it's gonna be" and will outline custody, visitation, who gets what, and support. Again, this hearing IS NOT the Restraining Order hearing--different court.

Let us know how it goes!


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## Erudite

I didn't know you could ask for emergency orders on the separation aspect. I will have to ask the court clerk about that.. Thank you!


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## Erudite

It didnt go my way.


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## Trident

sorry


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## Anastasia6

Erudite said:


> It didnt go my way.


So no restraining order? or what didn't go your way?


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## Erudite

No restraining order. It was dismissed. I did the best I could but because he never hit me or swore at me in his texts it didnt rise to reasonable fear for my safety.


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## Affaircare

I'm sorry to hear that, @Erudite. Personally, if his name isn't on the lease and yet he keeps just waltzing in...and has nowhere to live but parks and lives in his car outside your home...that sounds like harassment to me.

I *HOPE *that he now is busy enough with the landlord hearing and finding a home and divorce hearings that maybe (just maybe) he'll leave you alone and take care of his own business. I *HOPE *it's been long enough. If he doesn't bother you or harass you, just consider it a blessing and leave him alone too. If he wants to schedule a visit, schedule something in a neutral place (like he can meet the kids at a park or at a McD's).

I'd say your next focus needs to be finding some legal assistance. If your abuse advocate can't refer you to someone else, just Google "legal aid near me" or go to your local court online and see if they list legal aid or look here and pick your hometown: Legal Aid Offices


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## Resu

Gutted for you ☹.
You need better laws ... 
Is an appeal possible?


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## Erudite

Thank you. He was at my house, not inside, but right there about 4 hrs after court got over. 4 frikken hours. I only know because my neighbor saw him. Kids havent said one word. Now they are keeping secrets. Just exhausted and tired of the fighting.


----------



## Resu

I don't know you and I don't know what to say....

I feel worried that he is emboldened by the court.
( I hope the judge was not a woman😊)
I feel worried that you are now naturally exhausted and tired of the fighting. It doesn't make for a great combination but you must have the resolve to hold what steps you have made. You are employable and valued; you have your own home and car and can bring up a ten year old with occasional twelve hour days! You can't go back one on inch come hell or high water. Why would a wanker on the doorstep out in the cold think he could make you? It is quite possible the kids just don't want to upset you and didn't say anything rather than them keeping secrets as such. I am glad you have good neighbours there. Is it worth getting cameras to keep a log of his presence to demonstrate intimidating behaviour? Stay strong. You beat him every day you live your life without him but even saying 'him' feeds interest dumb drama. You left him and with good reason. This is about you bit him. Sadly it is just about asserting basic human rights to self respect dignity and safety. Even if the law is an ass you can be sure plenty in your society are with you and hopefully decent police will do what they can if you need them, decent neighbours will. Don't be alone. This is a different chapter to being in the house with him. I know it is a pep talk. That is the best I can do.

You deserve a band of seventies feminists picketing your door when you are at work just to call him out and when you rest just to let him know he is pointless and powerless🤣

Take care. Keep going.


----------



## Erudite

Resu said:


> I don't know you and I don't know what to say....
> 
> I feel worried that he is emboldened by the court.
> ( I hope the judge was not a woman😊)
> I feel worried that you are now naturally exhausted and tired of the fighting. It doesn't make for a great combination but you must have the resolve to hold what steps you have made. You are employable and valued; you have your own home and car and can bring up a ten year old with occasional twelve hour days! You can't go back one on inch come hell or high water. Why would a wanker on the doorstep out in the cold think he could make you? It is quite possible the kids just don't want to upset you and didn't say anything rather than them keeping secrets as such. I am glad you have good neighbours there. Is it worth getting cameras to keep a log of his presence to demonstrate intimidating behaviour? Stay strong. You beat him every day you live your life without him but even saying 'him' feeds interest dumb drama. You left him and with good reason. This is about you bit him. Sadly it is just about asserting basic human rights to self respect dignity and safety. Even if the law is an ass you can be sure plenty in your society are with you and hopefully decent police will do what they can if you need them, decent neighbours will. Don't be alone. This is a different chapter to being in the house with him. I know it is a pep talk. That is the best I can do.
> 
> You deserve a band of seventies feminists picketing your door when you are at work just to call him out and when you rest just to let him know he is pointless and powerless🤣
> 
> Take care. Keep going.


I needed to read that tonight. Thank you. I am prepared this go around. Started journaling and dating every interaction. The next day he is already texting. He is in charm mode. Never wanted to stress you etc etc but blah blah blah. See kiddo blah blah blah. Housing soon...blah blah. Cameras are not a bad idea actually.

I repeat stay strong to myself over and over. It helps. Coming here helps. Buying ugly Christmas sweaters helps. Whatever works at this point. 

Also, thanks to you, I now also metally use the word wanker more! That definately helps! 🙂


----------



## jonty30

Erudite said:


> I needed to read that tonight. Thank you. I am prepared this go around. Started journaling and dating every interaction. The next day he is already texting. He is in charm mode. Never wanted to stress you etc etc but blah blah blah. See kiddo blah blah blah. Housing soon...blah blah. Cameras are not a bad idea actually.
> 
> I repeat stay strong to myself over and over. It helps. Coming here helps. Buying ugly Christmas sweaters helps. Whatever works at this point.
> 
> Also, thanks to you, I now also metally use the word wanker more! That definately helps! 🙂


Carry a voice activated recorder with you as well at all times, if you speak to him personally.


----------



## CrAzYdOgLaDy

jonty30 said:


> Carry a voice activated recorder with you as well at all times, if you speak to him personally.


You can also get a voice recording app on your phone. If you know he is going to try ****, turn it on just before you see him, and hide your phone in your pocket or a bag purse. You can set them to record for hours if a good app. Doesn't beep or anything. Even records if phone on silent. You have done amazing so far. Wishing you and your boys all the best.


----------



## Beach123

His hard times are his own making.
There isn’t one single reason to “help him” any further.
You do you (and your kids).

you know what’s interesting? When people work= they make money. He hasn’t been a guy who has worked for a LONG time - he relied on you to pay his way. That isn’t a good father, mentor or spouse.

let him have consequences for being a bum of a spouse to you.

you do your best and don’t look in the rear view mirror. His problems are his own making - so are his consequences.


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## lifeistooshort

There's a small chance that the RO shocked him into realizing that there could in fact be consequences

It's a long shot but its not impossible. He did respect it so that tells me he does respond to actual consequences....he's just never had any from you before.

Keep your boundaries firm and document everything. And don't be afraid to call the police again if he harasses you.

Seek out other legal assistance. It was ridiculous that you didn't have any.


----------



## Erudite

Beach123 said:


> His hard times are his own making.
> There isn’t one single reason to “help him” any further.
> You do you (and your kids).
> 
> you know what’s interesting? When people work= they make money. He hasn’t been a guy who has worked for a LONG time - he relied on you to pay his way. That isn’t a good father, mentor or spouse.
> 
> let him have consequences for being a bum of a spouse to you.
> 
> you do your best and don’t look in the rear view mirror. His problems are his own making - so are his consequences.


Well thats a double edged sword. Supposedly he needs me to sign something saying son gets overnights with him to get into VA housing. I told him AGAIN yesterday, no. I am not signing anything until the court gives us an official shiny parenting plan. I am not having him use some weird paper to look bad during the court hearings/mediation.

I did drive by the housing he was looking at. It is all brand new subsidized construction. Online pictures show granite countertops, skylights, in apartment laundry, nice area etc etc. Where as I have been busting my ass for a shabby apartment, paying 3x my rent from before, with constant issues, no laundry and only a shower stall. It just doesn't seem fair. On the one hand I don't want him living in the car and I want a safe place for son to go visit, on the other hand I wanted to do better for myself. 😔


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> There's a small chance that the RO shocked him into realizing that there could in fact be consequences
> 
> It's a long shot but its not impossible. He did respect it so that tells me he does respond to actual consequences....he's just never had any from you before.
> 
> Keep your boundaries firm and document everything. And don't be afraid to call the police again if he harasses you.
> 
> Seek out other legal assistance. It was ridiculous that you didn't have any.


I am seeking out other assistance. Shoud know something early next week. I wish the courts moved faster. Its been a month since I filed the papers what the actual F is taking so long?


----------



## Cooper

Erudite said:


> Well thats a double edged sword. Supposedly he needs me to sign something saying son gets overnights with him to get into VA housing. I told him AGAIN yesterday, no. I am not signing anything until the court gives us an official shiny parenting plan. I am not having him use some weird paper to look bad during the court hearings/mediation.
> 
> I did drive by the housing he was looking at. It is all brand new subsidized construction. Online pictures show granite countertops, skylights, in apartment laundry, nice area etc etc. Where as I have been busting my ass for a shabby apartment, paying 3x my rent from before, with constant issues, no laundry and only a shower stall. It just doesn't seem fair. On the one hand I don't want him living in the car and I want a safe place for son to go visit, on the other hand I wanted to do better for myself. 😔


Seeing that you are still married and the wife of a veteran are you eligable for any benefits thru the veterans association? Like housing assistance or legal assistance? What about your minor age son? Are there any benefits to help you toward his support? Maybe even some sort of counselling.


----------



## Erudite

Cooper said:


> Seeing that you are still married and the wife of a veteran are you eligable for any benefits thru the veterans association? Like housing assistance or legal assistance? What about your minor age son? Are there any benefits to help you toward his support? Maybe even some sort of counselling.


All good questions, but no answers. The thing with housing assistance is that the wait times are super long. It's winter, it's covid. Too find any housing at all right now, you pay through the nose. Ex is lucky because he is the actual veteran in this case so he gets priority assistance assuming he can provide proof of income. ( I dont see how but whatever) And don't get me wrong, my apartment is clean, I can afford it. I just worry that son will like Dad's place better. Or worse the courts will decide son is better off with him...


----------



## Beach123

Our system is backwards. They reward the ones who won’t work and the ones working pay their way. Our tax dollars at work 😡

him searching for housing that’s subsidized just proves further he has no intention of working.


----------



## Resu

Erudite said:


> ...on the other hand I wanted to do better for myself. 😔


I am sure you will do better. It is early days.😃

You are making it work and you will make the next step work too! You will move on. You are just discovering what you can do when you don't have the dead weight...or the lectures🙂

I think it is actually good for to you to know that your ex has a good home. It was nice of you to check on it. You don't have to worry about him. He is not your problem at all now.

You will have dreams and plans and changes once you get through the early days. I hope a better place with a fairer rent is possible.

if you ever think of yourself in a year's time, when the young one goes to high school, or in three years time etc. it is all your own life, under your own steam with your own choices and chances.

You are obviously a smart, articulate, caring, determined, competent and increasingly confident woman and you are actually still young!. It is all yours. This is a stepping stone.


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## Erudite

Resu said:


> I am sure you will do better. It is early days.😃
> 
> You are making it work and you will make the next step work too! You will move on. You are just discovering what you can do when you don't have the dead weight...or the lectures🙂
> 
> I think it is actually good for to you to know that your ex has a good home. It was nice of you to check on it. You don't have to worry about him. He is not your problem at all now.
> 
> You will have dreams and plans and changes once you get through the early days. I hope a better place with a fairer rent is possible.
> 
> if you ever think of yourself in a year's time, when the young one goes to high school, or in three years time etc. it is all your own life, under your own steam with your own choices and chances.
> 
> You are obviously a smart, articulate, caring, determined, competent and increasingly confident woman and you are actually still young!. It is all yours. This is a stepping stone.


Oh you thlught I was checking on him to be kind.. that is nice of you to think so, but honestly I am chock full of petty jealousies, anger, envy, bitterness, self pity...I feel all those negative things daily, sometimes hourly. I feed them with resentment and a burning sense of loathing. I am mortally human in that respect. Sometimes karma is not always the b**** we hoped it would be LoL


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> Oh you thlught I was checking on him to be kind.. that is nice of you to think so, but honestly I am chock full of petty jealousies, anger, envy, bitterness, self pity...I feel all those negative things daily, sometimes hourly. I feed them with resentment and a burning sense of loathing. I am mortally human in that respect. Sometimes karma is not always the b**** we hoped it would be LoL


And sometimes karma takes a while to show up. Just remember that every dog has his day and your ex is still the same train wreck. You have no idea how that will play out in the future.

But beyond that try to remember that envy and jealousy are toxic and ultimately pointless. We all play the hand we're dealt and all have our unique blessings and personal demons. You never really know what another person's life is like to live. 

Be thankful for your blessings and remember that many blessings are not necessary tangible .

And if your ex does well so what? That's good for your sons. And if he doesn't you may well find that it doesn't feel as good as you thought. Your life won't be better if he fails.

I wish my exes well....I just don't wamt them bothering me.


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## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> And sometimes karma takes a while to show up. Just remember that every dog has his day and your ex is still the same train wreck. You have no idea how that will play out in the future.
> 
> But beyond that try to remember that envy and jealousy are toxic and ultimately pointless. We all play the hand we're dealt and all have our unique blessings and personal demons. You never really know what another person's life is like to live.
> 
> Be thankful for your blessings and remember that many blessings are not necessary tangible .
> 
> And if your ex does well so what? That's good for your sons. And if he doesn't you may well find that it doesn't feel as good as you thought. Your life won't be better if he fails.
> 
> I wish my exes well....I just don't wamt them bothering me.


I agree with you. I truly, truly do. I try to live my life that way. Its just sometimes when I am tired, or feeling played I act in ways I am not proud of. I don't LIKE feeling or acting that way.


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> I agree with you. I truly, truly do. I try to live my life that way. Its just sometimes when I am tired, or feeling played I act in ways I am not proud of. I don't LIKE feeling or acting that way.


You're still early in this process so give yourself a break. Anger is normal at this point.....time will help.


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## Erudite

Ex may be going to transitional housing tomorrow...we will see or if it is all words.


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## Erudite

Ex took the place 2hrs away. Sent me pictures so I know it is clean and safe for my son if/when he visits. Feels weird not to have this hanging over my head.


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## lifeistooshort

Good. The space will be good for both of you.


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## Erudite

Feeling down in the dumps today. Filed the paperwork a month ago. No word from the court so I called. Said nothing would be scheduled til after new year. I need this to be over. It is so quiet. With one ds working and the other with his father I am all of a sudden very lonely. Having mixed feelings about my decisions. Kinda weepy too. He hasn't changed. But I find myself missing him when I am alone like this.


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## DownByTheRiver

Erudite said:


> Well now I feel like crap. Apparently ex was going to get housing through VA if he had son for overnights. My order says no visitation so he cant get the apartment... I feel like a lot of my issues would have been if not solved then at least mitigated a bit. What do I do? Drop the order? There is housing for him about 2 hrs away from me for just him but he wont take it.


That's HIS problem. Stop making it your problem! Stop even talking to him about HIS problems. You stay on course and let him deal with his own f'd up life he created.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Erudite said:


> No he hasnt been out front. He has been good about the order. I am afraid I might have created a situation where he feels backed into a corner. Its easy to say its the law but it was me who took it to this next level. He was trying to do the right thing with the VA and its like I am taking away his options one at a time. We see what he is capable of when he thinks he has the upper hand, but what if he feels like he has nothing left to lose? At the same time you are all right about dropping the order, plus he will be pissed at me for that too. I have no choice but to keep it at least in part. Is there any way to modify the order so he can have regular visitation with overnights being granted upon housing approval? Something he could show the VA? This isnt an attempt to fix his problem. Its an attempt to fix MY problem. And, instead of having an RO be whats forcing him to behave in the future, just have it be the court papers for the separation? I mean the court has great leeway in these matters.


He took away his own options by his own behavior. Stop letting him guilt you for no reason. You're not his mother. Let him grow up and find ways to deal with his own problems.


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## DownByTheRiver

Erudite said:


> Ex took the place 2hrs away. Sent me pictures so I know it is clean and safe for my son if/when he visits. Feels weird not to have this hanging over my head.





Erudite said:


> Feeling down in the dumps today. Filed the paperwork a month ago. No word from the court so I called. Said nothing would be scheduled til after new year. I need this to be over. It is so quiet. With one ds working and the other with his father I am all of a sudden very lonely. Having mixed feelings about my decisions. Kinda weepy too. He hasn't changed. But I find myself missing him when I am alone like this.


It takes time. Don't put your life on hold waiting for the legalities. Just because they're slow doesn't mean anything is wrong. 

If you are still having to talk to your ex, have the court require it to be by email only and only about the kids. There are special websites for that where the conversations are kept stored in case it gets ugly and is needed for court. Stop mixing with him and doing that via email will limit how many of your strings he can attempt to pull because it has to be only about necessary kid conversations. And since you're not really sharing custody, don't see why you have to talk to him at all.


----------



## Erudite

DownByTheRiver said:


> It takes time. Don't put your life on hold waiting for the legalities. Just because they're slow doesn't mean anything is wrong.
> 
> If you are still having to talk to your ex, have the court require it to be by email only and only about the kids. There are special websites for that where the conversations are kept stored in case it gets ugly and is needed for court. Stop mixing with him and doing that via email will limit how many of your strings he can attempt to pull because it has to be only about necessary kid conversations. And since you're not really sharing custody, don't see why you have to talk to him at all.


It's just that every conversation about the "kids" turns into a conversation about something else. Fir instance he says he will pick up kiddo after school for the weekend. Sure great. Dk you want me ti meet tiu half way? No. Okay. Then he calls a half hour before he is supposed to be here because he will be late because he had a phone interview (always a job interview) abd if I would just enable the hot spot on his phone he could have had the interview at his new place or some other bull crap. Thats why I need the court to get moving. I would love to have a court mandate about communication but need to actually have the court respond...


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Erudite said:


> It's just that every conversation about the "kids" turns into a conversation about something else. Fir instance he says he will pick up kiddo after school for the weekend. Sure great. Dk you want me ti meet tiu half way? No. Okay. Then he calls a half hour before he is supposed to be here because he will be late because he had a phone interview (always a job interview) abd if I would just enable the hot spot on his phone he could have had the interview at his new place or some other bull crap. Thats why I need the court to get moving. I would love to have a court mandate about communication but need to actually have the court respond...


This is why you need to get the court to order your contact be limited. Considering you already had to get an order on him, that should be not that hard to get. Talk to whoever is helping you to facilitate that. Either that or you are going to have to learn how to hang up on him once your business is done. Whoever granted your order before, call the court clerk's office and explain what you need. They always answer the phone if it's business hours. Say, Judge _ granted me a (whatever your order was called) on __ name of your husband. He abuses phone privileges and I need the court to order him to talk only about the kids and only when necessary, and I understand there are apps for divorced parents to set up email that has restrictions on it. Give them an example like the one below. Say, I need this so he'll stop. Each time you agree to talk to him gives him hope of reconciliation, so you need to stop. He's using and leaning on you. 

Here is one such example:





__





OurFamilyWizard | OurFamilyWizard







www.ourfamilywizard.com


----------



## Erudite

That's the thing. We went to court for the protective order but the judge dismissed it. As long as he isn't swearing at me or threatening to hurt me it's not abuse. The judge actually told us to "get our act together" because there is a child involved. I try to limit it to text only but he will fabricate some reason why he had to call and if I don't answer the phone there is hell to pay. The above late pick up of the kiddo for instance. He waits until there is no possible way to be on time, then calls me. If I don't answer him then kiddo is stuck! Then he whines he tried to call blah blah. I need the court to move this separation along. I need a parenting plan. I need child support.


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## lifeistooshort

How is there "hell to pay"?

I suspect you allow a lot of it because you're used to his bullying. You don't have to kiss his ass because he's throwing a tantrum.


----------



## Anastasia6

Erudite said:


> That's the thing. We went to court for the protective order but the judge dismissed it. As long as he isn't swearing at me or threatening to hurt me it's not abuse. The judge actually told us to "get our act together" because there is a child involved. I try to limit it to text only but he will fabricate some reason why he had to call and if I don't answer the phone there is hell to pay. The above late pick up of the kiddo for instance. He waits until there is no possible way to be on time, then calls me. If I don't answer him then kiddo is stuck! Then he whines he tried to call blah blah. I need the court to move this separation along. I need a parenting plan. I need child support.


So when he calls at the last minute and you answer. At the moment he says he can't pick up your son. Just hang up and go get you son.

Or don't answer and text him, asking him what he wants.


----------



## Resu

Feeling it. 

Not easy. No way I can say something to say this is the way, this is right or that is wrong. Please just know somehow you are not alone. Sure, there is a long way to go but you have come a long way and know you can keep going even if you have to breath. Solo Saturdays to stop and see is something new. Having space but space is empty sometimes. Things grow from empty, even need empty to find form. Things grow even before you know they are growing. Christmas is hard. Always realistic and always long and ugly for some. Honestly the best I can say when you have to hold on - there is a song there for one who knows the heart in songs. God knows there are a dozen☺- when you have to hold on and get through as it is know there will be better years. You make them better.

Like the first coat of new paint. Making a new life though not yet sure and suffering shades of the old. There there will be better but first there is now.

Sorry if that has shades of SunCMars. Blame Jack Daniels 😊. Hang in there. You have got what it takes!


----------



## Resu

Erudite said:


> If I don't answer him then kiddo is stuck


WTF!

The boy is a child and you are the grown up in the room. You just have to go with it while you have to.☹

If I may suggest a perspective here, I would say as a man that it is really very sad to see a father use his son as a pawn and while I can well understand you missing his better side when you suddenly have time alone or even just missing what you were used to like the space after a bad tooth has gone - this is the guy you were with since you were a nineteen year old girl after all with all the bonding drama! - to realise now that this man puts your ten year old boy in this position must give you pause for thought?

FWIW as a man/father I have to say this is NOT how a decent person treats a child.


----------



## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> How is there "hell to pay"?
> 
> I suspect you allow a lot of it because you're used to his bullying. You don't have to kiss his ass because he's throwing a tantrum.


That's just it I have tried everything to not "allow" it. I try ignoring him. I try explaining to him. I try being firm. I try being passive. I took out a restraining order! I try to not sweat the small stuff even if he wants to make a mountain from a molehill. No matter how I approach it, he will go out of his way to make my life as difficult as possible and uses the kids as the way to do it. I honestly truly don't know what I am doing wrong. And, stupidly, I miss him sometimes. I. Do. Not. Understand. Myself.


----------



## Erudite

Resu said:


> WTF!
> 
> The boy is a child and you are the grown up in the room. You just have to go with it while you have to.☹
> 
> If I may suggest a perspective here, I would say as a man that it is really very sad to see a father use his son as a pawn and while I can well understand you missing his better side when you suddenly have time alone or even just missing what you were used to like the space after a bad tooth has gone - this is the guy you were with since you were a nineteen year old girl after all with all the bonding drama! - to realise now that this man puts your ten year old boy in this position must give you pause for thought?
> 
> FWIW as a man/father I have to say this is NOT how a decent person treats a child.


That whole fiasco was yesterday. Then today he has my son call me because ds did not want to do his chores. Seriously, my son did not want to do chores and he had my son call me to...what exactly? Reprimand him? Tell him to listen to Dad? Of course my son can call me at any time but his Dad made him call as some sort of punishment. Then of course he is saying he wants to come home and I have to say no. And in answer to your question, yes, it gives me pause that his Dad treats him this way.It's part of the reason I stayed with him for so long. To try to mitigate his behavior with the boys with my oh so reasonable presence! 😝


----------



## Resu

Erudite said:


> That whole fiasco was yesterday. Then today he has my son call me because ds did not want to do his chores. Seriously, my son did not want to do chores and he had my son call me to...what exactly? Reprimand him? Tell him to listen to Dad? Of course my son can call me at any time but his Dad made him call as some sort of punishment. Then of course he is saying he wants to come home and I have to say no. And in answer to your question, yes, it gives me pause that his Dad treats him this way.It's part of the reason I stayed with him for so long. To try to mitigate his behavior with the boys with my oh so reasonable presence! 😝


I hope all this is well logged for the court and you have the right representation for next round!

I am sure you did your best but you deserve better.😊


----------



## Cooper

I remember when my marriage fell apart I wanted above all else protect my children from emotional harm. I found I was constantly meditating things between the kids and their mom who had moved out to live with her sperm stick. I would even lie to the kids to cover their mothers behavior.

It was soooo ****ing exhausting, so I just stopped doing it. I decided it wasn't my job to keep a relationship between the kids and their mom, that it was 100% her job.

Here's my advice. Stop being the go between. Does your son have a cell phone? If so let the stbx call him directly to make or break plans, let the guy feel some discomfort. If your son doesn't have a cell then when the stbx calls just hand your phone to Jr. Keep reminding yourself, the guys life is not your responsibility.


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## Blondilocks

Your sons are the gateway for a free ride. Of course, your husband is going to use them for as long as it works.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Erudite said:


> That's the thing. We went to court for the protective order but the judge dismissed it. As long as he isn't swearing at me or threatening to hurt me it's not abuse. The judge actually told us to "get our act together" because there is a child involved. I try to limit it to text only but he will fabricate some reason why he had to call and if I don't answer the phone there is hell to pay. The above late pick up of the kiddo for instance. He waits until there is no possible way to be on time, then calls me. If I don't answer him then kiddo is stuck! Then he whines he tried to call blah blah. I need the court to move this separation along. I need a parenting plan. I need child support.


If he leaves the kids sitting because he's not picked them up then you call CPS and you keep dates and times and present that to the court and tell him this is the type of reason why you need to limit his communication.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

As long as you are enabling his behavior and interacting with him this much, no man is ever going to stay with you. They're going to leave the first time they see you doing that behavior.


----------



## Erudite

Resu said:


> I hope all this is well logged for the court and you have the right representation for next round!
> 
> I am sure you did your best but you deserve better.😊


I feel like I have to show a pattern of this behavior so I am logging it. But in the meantime it's exasperating..of course not as bad as living with hom so there's that!


----------



## Erudite

Blondilocks said:


> Your sons are the gateway for a free ride. Of course, your husband is going to use them for as long as it works.


Yep, which is why I want the courts to get off their butts and set a schedule. I would feel in a much stronger position if I had legal back up.


----------



## Erudite

Cooper said:


> I remember when my marriage fell apart I wanted above all else protect my children from emotional harm. I found I was constantly meditating things between the kids and their mom who had moved out to live with her sperm stick. I would even lie to the kids to cover their mothers behavior.
> 
> It was soooo ****ing exhausting, so I just stopped doing it. I decided it wasn't my job to keep a relationship between the kids and their mom, that it was 100% her job.
> 
> Here's my advice. Stop being the go between. Does your son have a cell phone? If so let the stbx call him directly to make or break plans, let the guy feel some discomfort. If your son doesn't have a cell then when the stbx calls just hand your phone to Jr. Keep reminding yourself, the guys life is not your responsibility.


I understand completely everything you are saying here. How do you let that happen but while knowing what a bad influence your ex can be at times? Like it or not my e is the primary male role model to my boys. Every action I take (or don't) seems to be enabling him somehow.


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## Cynthia

@Erudite, Feelings have no logic or intelligence, so you can't really be stupid for your feelings. Let them pass through without judgement. Harshly judging your own emotions is beating yourself up.


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## Affaircare

Hi @Erudite, 

I have a lot I'd like to say to you but I'm going to try to be succinct. Ready?



> Feeling down in the dumps today. Filed the paperwork a month ago. No word from the court so I called. Said nothing would be scheduled til after new year. I need this to be over. It is so quiet. With one ds working and the other with his father I am all of a sudden very lonely. Having mixed feelings about my decisions. Kinda weepy too. He hasn't changed. But I find myself missing him when I am alone like this.


It is 100% natural to feel lonely and weepy. Know why? You are just as used to the abuse cycle as he is...the only difference is that you are used to being the vicitim of his control, and he's used to being the controller! But even though it's not a habit that is "good for you"--you are used to it like a habit. You get some sort of fight or "drama" that makes you adrenalized...you get promises and wooed back to hoping...you walk on eggshells hoping it's really true this time...then you get some sort of fight again. So your body is used to a BIG adrenalin rush every couple days! Then your body is used to crashing...and then a big adrenalin dump again. You get used to it. 

Also, in real life you used to have two children and a husband making noise and kicking around the house (figuratively). Now your husband is no longer, your Older DS is working, your Younger DS is at his dad's...so in real life you ARE alone. Thus, it seems natural that you'd feel lonely. See, the trick is not to say "Oh I'm not lonely. I have blahblahblah..." and pretend it's not real. The trick is to ACCEPT what really is!! Accept it. You are lonely because you are alone...at this moment. Now, at another time you won't be alone, because ODS will come home from work, and YDS will come back from dad's, and you'll meet a couple lady friends, and you'll start a DivorceCare group...but that isn't today. Today, you ARE lonely. That's true. That's real. And it is reasonable and natural. It's also OKAY to feel that feeling. Don't avoid it or deny it--just accept it is what it is. Yep. You are lonely. You won't always be lonely but at this moment, you are. 

Finally, you don't miss HIM when you're lonely. You miss the image of what you thought he was. You had an image in your head of a man who loved you, who wanted to make a family with you, who was a hard-working and devoted father and husband, and who would never hurt you. That is not who is really is...that is who you HOPED he would be or the image of "him" you had in your head. You miss that!! But HIM...in real life... he did not act in a way that was loving toward you, and that it what love is--it's an ACTION (not a feeling). He did make a family with you, but he was not dedicated and committed to raising the children together and sacrificing for them--he thought of himself and USED YOU to take care of what he created. He wasn't hard-working and devoted--oh he may have worked long hours (when he had a job) but he did it to look good, and most of the time he couldn't even hold his temper to hold a job! See what I mean? You miss the image of him that you HOPED he was--not the real HIM.



> It's just that every conversation about the "kids" turns into a conversation about something else. Fir instance he says he will pick up kiddo after school for the weekend. Sure great. Dk you want me ti meet tiu half way? No. Okay. Then he calls a half hour before he is supposed to be here because he will be late because he had a phone interview (always a job interview) abd if I would just enable the hot spot on his phone he could have had the interview at his new place or some other bull crap. Thats why I need the court to get moving. I would love to have a court mandate about communication but need to actually have the court respond...


@Erudite, the divorce decree is not going to mandate that he stop calling you about being late and trying to demand you turn on the hotspot, etc. They can't get that detailed. There may be something in there about no contact and letting the other party live in peace, but again, you'd have to document the continuing pattern of harrassment, call the cops and all that. See, court is not about "justice"--the judge isn't going to slap him and tell him he's been wrong and now he's gotta stop it! LOL That's not how it works. In real life, the judge may well be doing the same exact thing to his/her spouse! Nah, they will get a list of your assets and debts, say "here's who gets what", 50/50 legal and physical custody, and we're done. That's it. 

So it's up to you to learn how to deal with him in a different way. Right now, you're still in the habit of kind of knuckling under to his attempts to overpower you. I would encourage you to learn new ways of communicating with him. As an example, when he calls to say he'll pick up kiddo after school for the weekend, you say "He'll be glad to see you then. Bye" and HANG UP!! When he calls 30 minutes before to say he's going to be late, just INTERRUPT HIM and say "He'll be disappointed. See you when you arrive. Bye" and HANG UP! When he starts going anywhere other than communicating facts about drop off/pick up, INTERRUPT HIM and say "I don't need to hear this. I'm hanging up now. Bye!" and HANG UP! What's he going to do? Call you a *****? I guarantee he already calls you that to anyone who'll listen because you cut off his supply of free kibble! He gonna blow up your phone calling over and over? Text your kids "Dad's blowing up my phone so I'm turning it off for XX minutes" and then turn your phone OFF.



> That's just it I have tried everything to not "allow" it. I try ignoring him. I try explaining to him. I try being firm. I try being passive. I took out a restraining order! I try to not sweat the small stuff even if he wants to make a mountain from a molehill. No matter how I approach it, he will go out of his way to make my life as difficult as possible and uses the kids as the way to do it. I honestly truly don't know what I am doing wrong. And, stupidly, I miss him sometimes. I. Do. Not. Understand. Myself.


See above where I talk about the adrenalin. It's a habit. And what happens is that you physically get used to that feeling of being afraid. Then when it's calm, it feels unnatural and "too quiet" and if you don't recognize it as a habit, you'll go out and look for ways to get the adrenalin again. Make sense? Now, I suspect you know it's not good for you, and your body even knows, but after you've gone a couple days beyond your habit...you kind of start to crave that adrenalin rush. So what you do, is that you just tell yourself: "This is what PEACE feels like. It's okay. Don't try to fill the silence. This is peace. It's okay." Seriously! Peace feels very still and is very quiet and there's calm. 



> That whole fiasco was yesterday. Then today he has my son call me because ds did not want to do his chores. Seriously, my son did not want to do chores and he had my son call me to...what exactly? Reprimand him? Tell him to listen to Dad? Of course my son can call me at any time but his Dad made him call as some sort of punishment. Then of course he is saying he wants to come home and I have to say no. And in answer to your question, yes, it gives me pause that his Dad treats him this way.It's part of the reason I stayed with him for so long. To try to mitigate his behavior with the boys with my oh so reasonable presence! 😝


Okay so Daddy Dearest has your YDS call you "as a punishment" for not wanting to do chores. Here's my thought. Tell YDS that his relationship with his dad is between HIM and HIS DAD. That if you have to talk to him (YDS) on the phone, it's going to be loving and kind and might even be fun. But you aren't sticking your nose into his time with his dad, or what goes on there. And when YDS says he wants to come home, you are the adult, @Erudite . You tell him that YOU want to be a rich beauty pageant winner, but we don't always get what we want. LOL See, YOUR job is to teach your boys YOUR values, and to give them the tools to figure out their own values and the tools to deal with their dad and his issues. Make sense? You don't do the dealing "for them" per se--you teach them how to cope with a parent who doesn't put them first (that's disappointing and as adults they need to learn how to deal with disappointment). You teach the boys how to speak up for themselves at their dad's--how to set boundaries with their parents (and yep, that includes you)--how to have a healthy relationship with their brother and their parents, etc. If your rule is "do chores or you get grounded" and they respect that...the rule at their dad's house could be different. And if they don't respect that, HE is the parent who enforces rules at his house. 

So next time YDS calls you "as punishment" for not doing chores, tell him what I said above. You could tell him that at your house you expect him to obey parents and that's a value YOU hold--but at his dad's house, he has to deal with his dad about disobeying and consequences. Get it? 

Part of the reason folks here say you are "allowing" this is that you are...in this sense: you are participating. It's like a dance. He does Step One...you follow up with Step A. He does Step Two...you follow up with Step B...and so on. What we are suggesting is to do the unexpected. When he tries Step One, he expects you to Step A. What if you did Step Z? Or what if you said "I will not dance AT ALL!" Maybe just start to think of the possibilities of how he does one thing and you follow up with another almost like a pattern...and then think outside the box how you could BREAK that pattern.


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## Resu

What a brilliant post.


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## Erudite

Affaircare said:


> Hi @Erudite,
> 
> I have a lot I'd like to say to you but I'm going to try to be succinct. Ready?
> 
> 
> 
> It is 100% natural to feel lonely and weepy. Know why? You are just as used to the abuse cycle as he is...the only difference is that you are used to being the vicitim of his control, and he's used to being the controller! But even though it's not a habit that is "good for you"--you are used to it like a habit. You get some sort of fight or "drama" that makes you adrenalized...you get promises and wooed back to hoping...you walk on eggshells hoping it's really true this time...then you get some sort of fight again. So your body is used to a BIG adrenalin rush every couple days! Then your body is used to crashing...and then a big adrenalin dump again. You get used to it.
> 
> Also, in real life you used to have two children and a husband making noise and kicking around the house (figuratively). Now your husband is no longer, your Older DS is working, your Younger DS is at his dad's...so in real life you ARE alone. Thus, it seems natural that you'd feel lonely. See, the trick is not to say "Oh I'm not lonely. I have blahblahblah..." and pretend it's not real. The trick is to ACCEPT what really is!! Accept it. You are lonely because you are alone...at this moment. Now, at another time you won't be alone, because ODS will come home from work, and YDS will come back from dad's, and you'll meet a couple lady friends, and you'll start a DivorceCare group...but that isn't today. Today, you ARE lonely. That's true. That's real. And it is reasonable and natural. It's also OKAY to feel that feeling. Don't avoid it or deny it--just accept it is what it is. Yep. You are lonely. You won't always be lonely but at this moment, you are.
> 
> Finally, you don't miss HIM when you're lonely. You miss the image of what you thought he was. You had an image in your head of a man who loved you, who wanted to make a family with you, who was a hard-working and devoted father and husband, and who would never hurt you. That is not who is really is...that is who you HOPED he would be or the image of "him" you had in your head. You miss that!! But HIM...in real life... he did not act in a way that was loving toward you, and that it what love is--it's an ACTION (not a feeling). He did make a family with you, but he was not dedicated and committed to raising the children together and sacrificing for them--he thought of himself and USED YOU to take care of what he created. He wasn't hard-working and devoted--oh he may have worked long hours (when he had a job) but he did it to look good, and most of the time he couldn't even hold his temper to hold a job! See what I mean? You miss the image of him that you HOPED he was--not the real HIM.
> 
> 
> 
> @Erudite, the divorce decree is not going to mandate that he stop calling you about being late and trying to demand you turn on the hotspot, etc. They can't get that detailed. There may be something in there about no contact and letting the other party live in peace, but again, you'd have to document the continuing pattern of harrassment, call the cops and all that. See, court is not about "justice"--the judge isn't going to slap him and tell him he's been wrong and now he's gotta stop it! LOL That's not how it works. In real life, the judge may well be doing the same exact thing to his/her spouse! Nah, they will get a list of your assets and debts, say "here's who gets what", 50/50 legal and physical custody, and we're done. That's it.
> 
> So it's up to you to learn how to deal with him in a different way. Right now, you're still in the habit of kind of knuckling under to his attempts to overpower you. I would encourage you to learn new ways of communicating with him. As an example, when he calls to say he'll pick up kiddo after school for the weekend, you say "He'll be glad to see you then. Bye" and HANG UP!! When he calls 30 minutes before to say he's going to be late, just INTERRUPT HIM and say "He'll be disappointed. See you when you arrive. Bye" and HANG UP! When he starts going anywhere other than communicating facts about drop off/pick up, INTERRUPT HIM and say "I don't need to hear this. I'm hanging up now. Bye!" and HANG UP! What's he going to do? Call you a ***? I guarantee he already calls you that to anyone who'll listen because you cut off his supply of free kibble! He gonna blow up your phone calling over and over? Text your kids "Dad's blowing up my phone so I'm turning it off for XX minutes" and then turn your phone OFF.
> 
> 
> 
> See above where I talk about the adrenalin. It's a habit. And what happens is that you physically get used to that feeling of being afraid. Then when it's calm, it feels unnatural and "too quiet" and if you don't recognize it as a habit, you'll go out and look for ways to get the adrenalin again. Make sense? Now, I suspect you know it's not good for you, and your body even knows, but after you've gone a couple days beyond your habit...you kind of start to crave that adrenalin rush. So what you do, is that you just tell yourself: "This is what PEACE feels like. It's okay. Don't try to fill the silence. This is peace. It's okay." Seriously! Peace feels very still and is very quiet and there's calm.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay so Daddy Dearest has your YDS call you "as a punishment" for not wanting to do chores. Here's my thought. Tell YDS that his relationship with his dad is between HIM and HIS DAD. That if you have to talk to him (YDS) on the phone, it's going to be loving and kind and might even be fun. But you aren't sticking your nose into his time with his dad, or what goes on there. And when YDS says he wants to come home, you are the adult, @Erudite . You tell him that YOU want to be a rich beauty pageant winner, but we don't always get what we want. LOL See, YOUR job is to teach your boys YOUR values, and to give them the tools to figure out their own values and the tools to deal with their dad and his issues. Make sense? You don't do the dealing "for them" per se--you teach them how to cope with a parent who doesn't put them first (that's disappointing and as adults they need to learn how to deal with disappointment). You teach the boys how to speak up for themselves at their dad's--how to set boundaries with their parents (and yep, that includes you)--how to have a healthy relationship with their brother and their parents, etc. If your rule is "do chores or you get grounded" and they respect that...the rule at their dad's house could be different. And if they don't respect that, HE is the parent who enforces rules at his house.
> 
> So next time YDS calls you "as punishment" for not doing chores, tell him what I said above. You could tell him that at your house you expect him to obey parents and that's a value YOU hold--but at his dad's house, he has to deal with his dad about disobeying and consequences. Get it?
> 
> Part of the reason folks here say you are "allowing" this is that you are...in this sense: you are participating. It's like a dance. He does Step One...you follow up with Step A. He does Step Two...you follow up with Step B...and so on. What we are suggesting is to do the unexpected. When he tries Step One, he expects you to Step A. What if you did Step Z? Or what if you said "I will not dance AT ALL!" Maybe just start to think of the possibilities of how he does one thing and you follow up with another almost like a pattern...and then think outside the box how you could BREAK that pattern.


Thanks all for validating that lonely feeling. I appreciate it. It has passed. I talked with MY Dad on the phone for 45 min last night. It helped. And of course ex created more drama by keeping ds an extra day on my time. When I realized I was participating, again, I stopped. That is something I plan on taking up in court though. I might not get limited contact but I do expect help enforcing pick up and drop off. I offered to meet half way and that's when he sprung that he was keeping him an extra day with no warning or asking if I had plans. But he wants me to meet halfway tonight. I feel like I shouldn't just cave in after what he pulled. On the other hand he might try to keep him again if I don't. Not sure how I am going to handle it tonight but last night it was devolving so I put a stop to it. And lo, the lonely, missing him feelings dissappeared!

i never feel at peace. The best I strive for is staying busy. I got alot of cleaning done! 

I get that adrenaline feeling. The stress is manifesting in my nightmares now, though. I dreamt that ds and I were on a ferris wheel and we were at the top and he fell out. I saw him hit the ground, flat on his back, and I couldn't reach him. I woke up crying. Doesn't take a professional to psycho analyze that!


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## Erudite

Resu said:


> What a brilliant post.


It's really hard for me to be present in the moment like that. My ex was good at future faking, but my claim to fame is future catastrophising if that's a word. Affaircare was right. I have made a bad habit out of looking for the worst to come!


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## Resu

These clips might be of interest.for staying in the moment if that is something that appeals to you.



https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81280926?preventIntent=true



Sorry to hear about the carry on with your youngest son. That was nice talking to your Dad.
I bet he is delighted to hear you are away from the wanker.


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## Erudite

Resu said:


> These clips might be of interest.for staying in the moment if that is something that appeals to you.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81280926?preventIntent=true
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to hear about the carry on with your youngest son. That was nice talking to your Dad.
> I bet he is delighted to hear you are away from the wanker.


Netflix is so awesome! I didn't know it had stuff like that!


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## jlg07

Erudite said:


> Thanks all for validating that lonely feeling. I appreciate it. It has passed. I talked with MY Dad on the phone for 45 min last night. It helped. And of course ex created more drama by keeping ds an extra day on my time. When I realized I was participating, again, I stopped. That is something I plan on taking up in court though. I might not get limited contact but I do expect help enforcing pick up and drop off. I offered to meet half way and that's when he sprung that he was keeping him an extra day with no warning or asking if I had plans. But he wants me to meet halfway tonight. I feel like I shouldn't just cave in after what he pulled. On the other hand he might try to keep him again if I don't. Not sure how I am going to handle it tonight but last night it was devolving so I put a stop to it. And lo, the lonely, missing him feelings dissappeared!
> 
> i never feel at peace. The best I strive for is staying busy. I got alot of cleaning done!
> 
> I get that adrenaline feeling. The stress is manifesting in my nightmares now, though. I dreamt that ds and I were on a ferris wheel and we were at the top and he fell out. I saw him hit the ground, flat on his back, and I couldn't reach him. I woke up crying. Doesn't take a professional to psycho analyze that!


Make sure you DOCUMENT all of this (get it in text form if you can...) You can present this in court.


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## Erudite

Update: so life is calmer now. Ex has new place with VA far away. He can't manipulate me with the car either. He still does strange things (like send me a story I asked him to write for me years ago or buy a copy of my favorite children's book) but I just keep things businesslike. This level of calm is uncomfortable. The court finally sent papers to get the ball rolling there. I am not sad. I don't miss him. But tomorrow is New Years and I am alone with a new haircut and a bottle of southern comfort.

Probably going to bed early. Want to get up before dawn to watch the first sunrise of the new year. That is bound to be inspirational right?


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## jlg07

OK, southern comfort is NOT my idea of fun (I am a bourbon guy!!), BUT there is nothing wrong with this.
I really hope 2022 will bring you the peace you need. I think, from what I've read, you are on the right track.
You will eventually be able to completely detach from him (story, books, etc. won't really matter to you).


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## Erudite

jlg07 said:


> OK, southern comfort is NOT my idea of fun (I am a bourbon guy!!), BUT there is nothing wrong with this.
> I really hope 2022 will bring you the peace you need. I think, from what I've read, you are on the right track.
> You will eventually be able to completely detach from him (story, books, etc. won't really matter to you).


I hope so. When the court papers arrived it hit me really hard for some reason. Not that my marriage was over. But that it was over with nothing to show for it. (Except the boys of course). No house to sell. No cars to separate. No money. No insurance. No possessions. Nothing. None of the markers that someone has built a life with me the last 21 years. It should make it easier when it comes to mediation but damn it makes me feel a bit pathetic.


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## lifeistooshort

Erudite said:


> I hope so. When the court papers arrived it hit me really hard for some reason. Not that my marriage was over. But that it was over with nothing to show for it. (Except the boys of course). No house to sell. No cars to separate. No money. No insurance. No possessions. Nothing. None of the markers that someone has built a life with me the last 21 years. It should make it easier when it comes to mediation but damn it makes me feel a bit pathetic.


EXACTLY the sane thing I heard from one of my closest friends when she and her ex divorced a few years ago. 20 year marriage....hubby refused to work and spent every last dime she made all while being pissed off that they kept moving so she could make more money that he then spent. 

House was rented....8,000 in her 401k with her making 6 figures. They had nothing and he took a lump sum in lieu of alimony. He actually dumped her because he found a sugar mama, then when sugar mama dumped him he tried to go back. Friend wouldn't take him back and he began a harassment campaign against her. Only thing she had with him was 3 kids.

Sound familiar?

Guess what? He eventually found someone else dumb enough to support him. She just remarried and they bought a house. Now husband has a job and contributes.

Keep your chin up....better times are coming.


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## Erudite

lifeistooshort said:


> EXACTLY the sane thing I heard from one of my closest friends when she and her ex divorced a few years ago. 20 year marriage....hubby refused to work and spent every last dime she made all while being pissed off that they kept moving so she could make more money that he then spent.
> 
> House was rented....8,000 in her 401k with her making 6 figures. They had nothing and he took a lump sum in lieu of alimony. He actually dumped her because he found a sugar mama, then when sugar mama dumped him he tried to go back. Friend wouldn't take him back and he began a harassment campaign against her. Only thing she had with him was 3 kids.
> 
> Sound familiar?
> 
> Guess what? He eventually found someone else dumb enough to support him. She just remarried and they bought a house. Now husband has a job and contributes.
> 
> Keep your chin up....better times are coming.


Your story is why I come here so often. If posting here has taught me anything it's that someone has done this, done it better even, and wound up OK! It'll happen. It WILL.


----------

