# How to become more intimate?



## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

How do you become more intimate with your spouse? Not sexually. My wife has said that is a major barrier of ours. I'm pretty sure she is doing nothing to help it but maybe she is and I'm not catching her signals. It is also very likely she wants "it" but has no idea how to go about achieving "it" either...or maybe even what "it" is.

So help me if you have some ideas...how do we go about leading into this? And maybe even "What is your definition of it"

Thanks


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Kiss and hug her goodbye before work.
Kiss and hug her hello after work.
Kiss and hug her before you go to bed.
If watching TV sit together and hold hands.
Hold hands when walking together.
When passing her in the house always make a point to touch her in some manner. 
Spend quality time with her and don't isolate yourself in reading, gaming, watching TV alone.
Make sure she understands you want her intimacy also.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Amplexor,

These things I/We already do. Not trying to negate, just that it must be something more that she wants.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

What does she say when you ask her what she's looking for?


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

She really has a hard time talking about anything important to the relationship. I don't really think it is because she doesn't WANT to so much as it is that any sort of stress/conflict is avoided by her at all cost.

"We need more intimacy" all I got out of our last conversation. I was hoping to maybe glean some insite here. You are right of course, it may come down to pressing the issue with her directly.


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

Ahhh, an avoider. I know them well, I am/was one  

I know exactly how she feels in saying that she wants more (emotional bond, intimacy, same thing) but doesn’t know how to achieve it. Unfortunately, it might be her that is blocking herself from achieving it. 

I don’t know anything about your situation so this is purely a guess based off of the avoidance comment but; until she lets her guard down she will not be able to form a truly intimate bond with anyone. The intimacy she craves comes from being open and sharing with your spouse, from resolving issues together and the day-to-day occurrences such as what Amplexor suggested. You don’t reap the rewards from those things if you have your guard up all of the time, you just don’t.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> "We need more intimacy" all I got out of our last conversation. I was hoping to maybe glean some insite here. You are right of course, it may come down to pressing the issue with her directly.


Let's be clear here.

I use intimacy to mean things other than sex, but it obviously does include sex. Americans tend to use the word as a euphemism for sex.

To give us the bigger picture, please could you describe (separately) the level of your sex life, and your emotional connection. Then we can get a better picture of what your wife means.

But yes, it's clear she is trying to get through to you in a BIG way, you did well to put it up here for discussion.


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## lbell629 (May 10, 2010)

Work on really sitting her down and letting her share her heart. Let her know that you are there for her no matter what she is feeling and just hold her as she shares things that are hard for her to say. And you need to be open with her. Pick easy topics to start off with and slowly move into deeper topics. Ask her "what do you need from me today? how can I show you love today" and ask her to ask you as well.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Sharing honest thoughts despite one's fear it will anger or turn off the other is the most important way to build intimacy--by letting ourselves be vulnerable with another. 

She wants intimacy but her fear of conflict is one of the major barriers. Working on good communication skills will help both of you--learning to make "I" statements, to get at one's own thoughts and feelings rather than blaming the other--is a great way to practice sharing tough thoughts/feelings. Get started by talk about the different messages these two random statements send; make sure she understands that you are talking about the way people say things, that you are NOT trying to have a conversation about how much time the two of you spend together! "You don't love me. You never spend any time with me." vs. "I think I must bore you because you seem to prefer spending time doing X instead of Y. I get angry and frightened that I will lose you because I am boring." Discuss what each of you sees as the pros and cons of the phrasing in the different statements, and then see if each of you can come up with a good "I" statement about YOURSELF and phrase it in this way-- I feel X because I think yyy when you [blank]. Most couples do not recognize that it is their thoughts about the other person's behavior that determines how they feel--"You leave me alone so I feel unloved and sad" only makes sense if the person THINKS that being left alone is somehow a bad thing! "I love it when you leave me alone b/c I think you respect my need for 'me-time'" vs. "I hate it when you leave me alone b'c I think it means you find me boring." It is the person's thoughts, not the spouse's behavior, that triggers the feelings, so learning to identify what thought is triggered by another person's behavior is key (and it's hard to do!!). 

Even introducing such a topic--how some ways of saying things are more useful than others--is a start. Also, introducing topics that allow each of you to share values, ideas, dreams--all of this requires "exposure" of your "secret self," and so it means vulnerability, thus sharing it helps build intimacy.

Amp, I have to say--your list is distressing. None of those things would feel intimate to me unless we already had an emotional connection. They are evidence of intimacy, not a way to build it--in my one-woman's opinion, that is. I'll be interested to hear what others say.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

WantsHappiness - I think you are pretty much on the money there. She says she can't trust me with her heart because of things I've done in the past. She will admit to having built fortress walls around herself (even prior to me).

Just to give a bit of info here are a couple of the things I did that she has mentioned really made her not trust me with her heart. I will try to make explanations short.

1>friends were coming over. She said "DO NOT take any one in back room" (was messy). While friends were over, I got to talking about my RC airplane I was building and he wanted to see (it was of course in back room). I rationalized that "he's a guy and won't care that its messy" and took him in to show (couldn't take out as it was large and pinned to table etc).

2>We were talking of her legally becoming my daughters mom (natural had passed away). I was excited and told my daughter about it.

I get that what I did in these situations was wrong. In the first I did not value her wishes that were made very apparent to me, I shrugged them off, belittled them and acted on my own. In the latter, I took away her excitement and opportunity to discuss this with my daughter. Also -unbeknown to me- she had not fully made the decision and I took away the opportunity for her to decide on her own.

These are the two main examples she gives to me.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MarkTwain

"We" have no sex life. She spends time with herself and toys and I with myself and toy. 

This is 100% her choice. And the "We need to be more intimate" was actually in response to me asking her if we were ever going to be together again (haven't been since last year). 

It was followed by "when we are the sex will probably come along to"


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OK, now we're getting down to business...

Please read this article, and tell me which categories you fit into:

Sexless Marriage?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> 1>friends were coming over. She said "DO NOT take any one in back room" (was messy). While friends were over, I got to talking about my RC airplane I was building and he wanted to see (it was of course in back room). I rationalized that "he's a guy and won't care that its messy" and took him in to show (couldn't take out as it was large and pinned to table etc).
> 
> 2>We were talking of her legally becoming my daughters mom (natural had passed away). I was excited and told my daughter about it.


#1 is nothing. She is just being controlling.
#2 is serious - you really screwed up. Been there done that 

So whereas you should appologise for #2, buy flowers/chocs etc., for #1 you should tell her to knock it off in the most macho way you can muster. Under no circumstances should you grovel or wipe the floor with yourself over this one. She was hoping you would put her in her place and be a man, and you acted like a whimp if you apologised beyond a simple sorry.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MT,

I may let you go wild on the sex (or lack therof) portion, but I'll have to wait until I've a bit more time to make that post...I'd like this one to stay on the emotional side of intimacy.

As per your post above, concerning #1 and #2. I did apologize for #1 at the time. #2 I did not even realize I the damage I had done until long, long, long after (like I said, she likes to avoid conflict). Both of these are 6 to 10 years ago, but still among her top examples of how she trusted me with her heart and I stepped on it.

FWIW - maybe I am a whimp because I do think she was right there and I did not merit her strong feelings concerning the mess enough.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> #1 is nothing. She is just being controlling.
> #2 is serious - you really screwed up. Been there done that
> 
> So whereas you shuld appologise for #2, buy flowers/chocs etc., for #1 you should tell her to knock it off in the most macho way you can muster.


Dangerous advice, b/c the response to #1 is basically saying, "What is important to her is NOT important, so just ignore it." Talk about taking the fast train to resentment.

Just because cleanliness/orderliness may not be important to one person does not mean the other person is "controlling." One of you might be a truly disgusting slob; the other might be an obsessive germophobe. More likely, however, one of you is male and the other is female. What "does not matter" to him is often part of her core self-image. Ignore it at your peril! 

There are many approaches to this issue, but one of 'em is not "let the other person know that what matters to her is not important." 

You can compromise a lot on an issue like this--just make sure you let her know you value what is important to her (even if you don't share that degree of concern) and LIVE UP TO whatever agreements you make. If you have agreed (and silence means consent) NOT to show the room, then live up to that agreement. Invite the friend back to see it another time, and clean the darn space before then. If you know you will be wanting to show someone something back there, then let her know and ask what the two of you can do, in the time you have, to make it presentable. 

You might bluster your way into intimidating your wife into letting you win (by macho behavior), but you will be losing. S*it on enough things that are important to her but that you "judge" to be insignificant, and you are sending a very clear message you do not value her. Take the time to discuss, understand, and work with what is important to her, and you build a stronger relationship. 

So, for #1, apologize for not taking her need (to present a clean home) seriously. Let her know you won't do it again--you will plan ahead of time if you might want to show the room, or you will make plans to show it later, when you've had a chance to straighten it. Or, you will unbolt the item and bring it out rather than sacrifice her request to indulge your own passion. Ask her if any or all of these are acceptable options. Expect her to be surprised and pleased that you "get it." Keep up the good work.

Edit: just saw your post about how these are old things. A lot of people will say that she is "wrong" for bringing up old grievances. But that ignores the much more important reality--they are windows into her view of the relationship AND they are moments when she experienced a paradigm shift in her understanding of the relationship. She is giving you two VERY clear examples with a common theme: she feels you do not give her needs and feelings very much consideration when you are making decisions. It sounds like you might be very impulsive--so this lack of consideration may have happened a LOT. You probably do not intend to "slight" her feelings/needs, you are just being "you," excited about the plane, excited for your daughter. . . she is warning you that she is having trouble with "you." IF you have impulse control issues, she may learn to understand that your ability to stop and consider her needs is limited. Right now, she thinks you do not VALUE her needs/etc, and your impulsive behaviors are a conscious disregard for what is important to her, a conscious assertion that what you want is more important than what she might want/need, time and again. 

Impulsive behaviors can come across as simple thoughtlessness--you did not take time to think about her b/c she is not important enough. Or, she may think that you are doing it intentionally, a passive aggressive response--b/c she has let you know certain things ARE important to her. If you are quite sure that neither of these things is true, and maybe you really have an impulse control issue, then explain that to her--and regardless of whether her thinking is fairly accurate or not, try to do better at ASKING her before you make decisions about things you are going to do. Asking for her input shows you value her concerns and her judgment. If you do it a lot of the time and then forget on occasion, she probably won't even notice (once her resentment wears away for all the past offenses, which could take a while b/c she has to see enough to let her trust that you really do care for her needs/judgment, etc.)

Sounds like you are making progress at getting her to open up. She really needs to work on this problem of conflict avoidance, of course, so encourage counseling for the two of you. Good luck.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

lbell629 said:


> Work on really sitting her down and letting her share her heart. Let her know that you are there for her no matter what she is feeling and just hold her as she shares things that are hard for her to say. And you need to be open with her. Pick easy topics to start off with and slowly move into deeper topics. Ask her "what do you need from me today? how can I show you love today" and ask her to ask you as well.


I do this once in a while...she seems to get really uncomfortable. So it is more like "How can I show you that I love you better?" "Am I meeting your needs, how could I do better?" This has been a once every couple months thing. No, she has never done this in return. Sometimes I come out and tell her anyway, even though she does not appear to care, and over time I can say she has gotten much better in nearly all areas. Even Touch - she will hug and give peck on lips and snuggle up watching a movie or in bed.

Maybe you're on the right track though - maybe I need to do this more often. Maybe if it were more often it would become more "usual" and less dis-comfortable.

Thank you


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

In the first scenario, as sisters pointed out, you agreed not to do something and then did it anyway. In the second, imho, if she didn’t ask you to let her be the one to talk to your daughter there was no way for you to know it was something she had strong feelings about. Male/female, none of us is a mind reader. Of course, with something as monumental as adoption you probably should have agreed on a method of approach before either of you said anything but since you didn’t (I’m assuming), neither of you could really be held responsible for overstepping any bounds because there were no bounds. 

Very simply, to resolve the problem from both of these scenarios you need to make sure you go out of your way not to go back on your word. Doing so can come across as passive-aggressive even if it’s not intended that way. Even (maybe especially) small stuff like saying you’ll take the trash out, do so when you say you will. All of those little things add up. Keeping your word will help to build her trust. 

Now, you can keep your word on every single thing for a decade but - and this is a big but - if she doesn’t take those walls down it won’t do you a darn bit of good. There will come a point that she needs to take a leap of faith and remember that she married you for a reason: that she wants to share her life with you and then begin doing so. It took several counseling sessions for me to realize this and sometimes my first impulse is still duck and cover. She will need to force herself out of the comfort zone and start communicating. You can make this easier for her by always being open and honest, be available to listen and strike up conversations with those *I* statements. Don't react negatively when she does share thoughts and feelings (exceptions apply of course) because when she does open up she needs to feel safe doing so.

Is she a reader? She might benefit from some books on communication. It definitely sounds like she's open to working on this which is a huge first step.

ETA:



OneMarriedGuy said:


> Maybe you're on the right track though - maybe I need to do this more often. Maybe if it were more often it would become more "usual" and less dis-comfortable.
> 
> Thank you


Yes, absolutely! The more she does it the more normal it will feel.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> MT,
> 
> I may let you go wild on the sex (or lack therof) portion, but I'll have to wait until I've a bit more time to make that post...I'd like this one to stay on the emotional side of intimacy.


I will wait until you have read my article, as I need those questions answered before I can comment further. I would say either you have transgressed badly, or your wife is having an affair or both. OOOps I think that was a comment!


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Sisters

I would say impulse control issues may be a very good description for how I was - have been working hard on not doing this but to be honest I am rather a natural decision maker and "leader" personality. Sports coach etc... to add to this my wife is very poor at these types of things and pretty much as default expects me to do everything like this. Make counseling apts... dates, plans for the weekend with the kids etc... She will admit this was a pre-existence thing and that I didn't simply swoop in and remove control of those things from her, more a simple matter of if I don't...they don't happen. Never-the-less, I am now trying to combine my decision making with getting approval or acquiescence from her before going forward. 

I concur with you on the issue of her feeling that I was not valuing her thoughts, wishes, feelings enough in both of those instances. The fact the she bottled things up and let them stew for years didn't help much either - helped them to rot quite a bit ...stinky 

We have been in counseling for a year and our communication has grown SO much. I now look forward to going home after work and I think the kids are much happier too. We are both learning to use the I word more instead of ASSuming what the others intentions, thoughts, reasons etc were.

I have asked her to take the Love Languages test and we came out pretty equal with the exception that she has Acts of Service very high on hers and it is low on mine. I have Physical Touch very high on mine and she has it very low on hers. 

I have been trying very hard to improve my "Chore" drive 

She really had a crappy childhood. Mother was both mentally and physically abusive. Father was just "not there" in a sense because his own father had been abusive to him as a child and he thought that not being there was the best way to make sure he didn't end up like his own father. The likelihood of her being sexually abused at a very young age is also about 90% probably in both our minds. All things considered she has done really well in her life not to be dead or a crack addict.

So yeah, she has built many walls and strengthened them well. I'm sure my hurting her when she had let down her walls a bit for me just made her all the more resentful of me and resigned to building them bigger and stronger yet.

That being said, she now treats me better than I can really ever remember her treating me. I know she loves me. I know she is NOT in Love with me.

_*I believe if we cannot reach this level of intimacy that she will not ever be in-love with me. I believe if she cannot let down her walls a bit we will not become more intimate, yet am pretty sure she wants the "intimate" prior to letting down the walls.*_


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

WantsHappiness

I agree with your statements and yes that is pretty much on the head of the nail what was going on. It is difficult at times for me not to do things of similar, albeit smaller scale. I've even caught myself making a decision and acting on it without her input in the recent past and presented to her. She didn't even get what I was doing it as it hadn't affected her - she thought i did nothing out of line and shouldn't be apologizing... 

She does like to read, but really just for escape, fun, entertainment. I've had several books that I've been reading and offered to share with her as well as books on tape (relative to marital strengthening) and she has not bit once. I was honesty pleasantly surprised when she did the Love Languages survey thing with me.

In counseling I learned that she was planning to leave me back in 2006. She became pregnant and so stayed. Since then she said she was waiting to leave me until she was financially able. We are currently trying to improve our/her financial ability by opening a storefront for her art/crafts. Unfortunately instead of improving it, it has put us over 10K in debt.

I guess part of me wonders if she is just trying to make things "better " with us until she can leave. I guess maybe make things "liveable" instead of "loveable". Just seems like we get so far...then she puts on the brakes and will not allow us to go further.

Which brings me to maybe a better understanding of what my original question should have maybe been. Maybe it should have been how do you get somebody that desires intimacy to take the chance on achieving intimacy?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

You do not seem to sound very angry or frustrated. And that troubles me.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm guessing you're being a bad boy and going back on the SEX subject here  I'd threaten to spank you but am afraid that it might just spur you onward ...just joking.

I get T'd at times, I get frustrated even more often. I do my best to have my mind control, stifle, set aside etc... my emotions. Letting my emotions wins makes me hurt, resentful etc...all things counterproductive to trying to save this marriage.

Reality is if I don't believe she is consciously trying to punish or hurt me. Reality is the harder I press in the harder she pushes out. Reality is if this marriage can be saved, it will be in her time. Reality is, I now look forward to going home and being with her. 

I'm on medication and one of the blessed side effects is a lower sex drive. Heck, I probably only want to make love with her two or three times a week now.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> I'm guessing you're being a bad boy and going back on the SEX subject here  I'd threaten to spank you but am afraid that it might just spur you onward


I might even enjoy that... but PLEASE read my article and give me your responses. This has nothing to do with sex. Well, OK a little, but there is something bigger behind it. We need to deal with these emotional/personality issues first. SEX is way down the list.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MarkTwain said:


> ... SEX is way down the list.


It would certainly seem so! 

There... a bit of passive aggression for you :rofl:


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> I'm on medication and one of the blessed side effects is a lower sex drive. Heck, I probably only want to make love with her two or three times a week now.


What medication, this is important?


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

I've been using this since last October
Citalopram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wife has been on this for many years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoxetine 

Yes it pretty much is guaranteed to hinder things sexually but she doesn't want to try anything else as she is happy with it doing the job she got it for.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

MarkTwain said:


> #1 is nothing. She is just being controlling.
> #2 is serious - you really screwed up. Been there done that
> 
> So whereas you should appologise for #2, buy flowers/chocs etc., for #1 you should tell her to knock it off in the most macho way you can muster. Under no circumstances should you grovel or wipe the floor with yourself over this one. She was hoping you would put her in her place and be a man, and you acted like a whimp if you apologised beyond a simple sorry.


Okay, well I guess nobody can be right all the time. I'm sure everyone normally has high regard for MT's comments, but he is waaayyyy off on this one. Were I your wife and you did that to me, in that back room is where you'd be sleeping......to this day.

You can learn to respect your wife and respect her wishes, or you can listen to off-the-wall opinions like this one. The choice is yours. I doubt I have to remind you that you aren't married to anyone on this board. Those two examples you gave, ESPECIALLY the first one, are very indicative of what she goes through. Granted, you gave us just two examples, but you are not in the doghouse for just those two. Just those two tell me a lot. MT linked you to his article that is reasonably adequate at explaining resentment. You have built a whole lot of that in your wife from disrespecting her and disrespecting her wishes time after time. She is sick of you and your disrespect. Change your ways and learn to listen to HER, or you'll be talking about no sex until this time again next year.


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## galaxy (Jun 14, 2010)

Assumptions and guesswork are dangerous. You need to talk openly or get counseling. Self help is good too. Get some good book.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Susan2010 said:


> linked you to his article that is reasonably adequate at explaining resentment. You have built a whole lot of that in your wife from disrespecting her and disrespecting her wishes time after time. She is sick of you and your disrespect. Change your ways and learn to listen to HER, or you'll be talking about no sex until this time again next year.


Until he answers my questions, I can't be sure what side of the resentment fence he lies on. It could be due to disrespect, but it is just as likely to be a lack of spine coupled with a complete lack of sensitivity towards other's feelings.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> I've been using this since last October
> Citalopram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Wife has been on this for many years Fluoxetine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...


Please explain the *original *reasons you both started taking this drug in both cases, and how long ago.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

MarkTwain said:


> Until he answers my questions, I can't be sure what side of the resentment fence he lies on. It could be due to disrespect, but it is just as likely to be a lack of spine coupled with a complete lack of sensitivity towards other's feelings.


Perhaps I missed something, but his own examples are explicit and not ambiguous at all. So, the possibility of "lack of spine" is assumption. I just think it a better idea to express opinion based on stated evidence than to turn a clear and clean cut example into something other than it clearly was just because you think it could be something different. The man blew off his wife's expressed request. You tell him to further blow off her ire for his disrespect. What kind of advice is that?

Too often, people don't get what they themselves do, their own contribution to the breakdown of the marriage, so they live in denial and constantly complain of how awful their spouse is. Here we have a man who not only confessed fault but also understands and explained for us the effects and damage of his own actions. Your response was to wipe it all away in his mind. What progress do you expect that to avail him?


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MarkT, I do intend to get to your questions and read (slowly and intently) your link. Just need to get some time to lock in...

In the mean while, not sure how many have been reading my long posts or simply skimming by. We have been in counseling for a year now and have made quite a bit of progress we have much to go. I was also going to counseling on my own for quite some time - no longer am. This was a letter I wrote about a year ago.

Dr. (personal counselor):
Dr. (marital counselor) asked that I write up sort of a course of action involving the goals I hope to reach with you. I believe so that our efforts may be in line. While I think he had an outline in mind, I’m guessing it is more of a bit like writing to dear diary. You may find it hard to believe that I’ve shortened it many times 

The “me” I like… When I am happy to be me, I am the outreaching me, I feel loved. As I look at how I feel during these good times, I am overflowing, I am happy, I feel loved and the love flowing out of me is not taxing, it does not feel depleting, it is simply overflow. Giving, loving, sharing is easy and natural feeling, it is not work, it is not effort.
While I would guess that the “overflow” state most likely cannot be sustained continually, I know that the person I become when that overflow state is not in effect is not only unnecessary, but unacceptable. I have become a person I do not wish to ever be again…not with anyone, especially not My wife, or my children, those I love the most. I don’t like me looking from the outside in and am disgusted by my actions and certainly don’t like being me during those times either. “What was I thinking?” is a common thought of mine lately, unfortunately (as it certainly might help here) I often have no idea.

I have no doubt that me changing these patterns will be not only a blessing to those around me but in reality quite a blessing to me as well. Some of my errors are done with the best intentions – me truly trying to do the right thing yet not weighing things properly (My wife says that she feels often I do things with the best intentions but my compass is not pointing true north and that while I try to follow the compass, it is off ), other times I can only look back and see my actions could only described be a total disregard for anyone else or even wicked. That really isn’t me - it can’t be - I will not live as that person.
I look and sometimes see Dr. J and Mr. H. How different the me I like and the me I became are. As I look perhaps a simplistic version is that one is outward looking and one inward looking. I don’t believe either is totally one way or that way all the time, but …

Yes this all began as me hoping to save my marriage to My wife. While that certainly still exists, It has grown beyond that alone. When I look at the pain I’ve caused her and for the amount of time, it kills me, she didn’t deserve it… and it makes me wonder if she could ever able to trust me with her heart again, maybe forgive (she’s a very big person), but trust? I am hoping and praying for that miracle as well as for the miracle of having these goals become a reality in my life. My wife said something the other day that has rather become my banner of hope “I hope that we can be the last couple on the dance floor at our granddaughter’s wedding” (referring to the anniversary dance). Every time I think of it I both smile and tears well to my eyes - warm, dreamy and hopeful . (yes even again this time – proofreading )

These goals are to better myself, to learn how to keep the me I like and want to be as the one that lives in my head and heart. For myself and My wife, for our children, for our future, hopefully all of us together as a happy, nurturing, uplifting, loving family. A family where everyone feels safe, important and loved and where the kids see a good example for how a husband should treat his wife. 
if not…still for the future…

While I may often say My wife, these of course go for my children and quite frankly others as well

Sarcasm
- In my mind I think I say funny, harmless, sarcastic little jibs in a spirit of fun. Whether they would be on their own or not I’m not sure, but combined with so many other things and direct criticism and condescending attitude they become stinging whips – I think it is better to keep a spirit of fun but turn it toward more loving comments. In all honesty so often even when she would tell me it hurt I didn’t get how they did. While they truly may have been received different had otherwise treatment of My wife was all around better, I think it is best to avoid as I obviously cannot see the damage I can cause here even when pointed out. While I didn’t feel I was saying them with malice, I certainly can’t deny that sublimely there wasn’t any… there’s just too many things I see I was doing that I would think I wouldn’t do, that I don’t want to do any more.

Respect / Value
- I tend too often to evaluate and act based solely on my opinion of a situation. Even if another opinion/desire/request has been given definitively I may disregard it if I have decided that it was not so big of a deal in my mind. In my mind I may be thinking I am doing the best for all concerned or at other times simply only looking from my point of view. This makes My wife and others feel that their feelings/opinions/desires are not important to me as they were cast aside or down ranked by me	(Dirty room adoption)

- I got the point where way too often when she would talk to me about something I would make her feel like she was wasting my precious time. I can look back on it now and see I made her feel like she had to jump though hoops to get an audience with the king. How demeaning, how hurting, how condescending. I can’t believe how huge this is, how unbelievably nasty. I have no idea how I got there… the me I like loves her talking to me…about anything, just for fun or daily lives…where did I go? Why did I choose to be this way? 

- Way too often, I make her feel undervalued as a mom, wife, and just as a woman or person. I actually do feel that Trenton and Vincent being so sweet has SO much to do with her being an at home mom. They are unbelievingly loving and forgiving children. The same applies to the love and friendship and mothering she has lovingly given to Aaron, Ashley and Nick. She has done an amazing job stepping into a mixed household and being a positive influence on all. Perhaps so good that it seemed so easy that I have no idea how hard it really was. I can’t say my attitude portrays that though. Even when I do say positive things, with everything else, I can imagine that “You are a great mommy” probably gets heard like “You are a OK mom, not that that is saying much”

Critical / Controlling / Condescending
- Just making My wife feel like anything she does is simply not good enough, always falling short of “how I would have done it” or liked it done.
- the “this is how I would do it – it is the right way” not only pretty arrogant but in turn implying “your way is wrong” if it deviates from my way of doing something. While her way may seem either a harder way to get at the same result or a result that is somehow not as good to me it may be a result that is better to her or more practically achieved.
- goes closely with the not truly being appreciative of a job well done. I may say the house looks great EXCEPT FOR … sounds kinda like “I love you BUT…”
- dinner table examples of my controlling have contributed to the two older children having eating disorders, My wife comes in with some baggage there as well, and at minimum feels I am critical with her here. I know she is certainly concerned for Trenton and Vincent and how I may affect them. Often these things are done with an effort to have people share evenly with the rest of the family or good manners but even then they spill into how to do things “my way”. Aaron may be wanting to eat way more than his share of something because he finds it particularly good, everyone else may as well. I jump into tell him to put on the stops a bit My wife tries to pull me off (I even asked her to), I feel justified and continue feeling I am right in trying to get him to share be considerate of others and not so self absorbed– she is more right because her primary focus is saving his life and having him eat – a bigger deal. Just to add to things I just shut her down after specifically asking her to help me see when I was wrong.
- She feels very strongly that I don’t want her working around other guys. For a long time I really didn’t’ think so, now as I look my wifeper I think there is validity there…see jealousy.
- She doesn’t feel trusted. I tend to twist any potential situation the wrong way. I get accusatory. 

Jealousy / Sex
- I have over jealous problems. I’m sure my past contributes, My wife and I together having long term sex issues contributes, but more than anything I think that I am just too needy and with too low of self esteem. I originally started writing this letter and had the heads listed as rather an outline. I left this one last originally because I was thinking it was pretty much a “when the rest is cleaned up this one will follow” sort of thing. Now I really wonder if it sin last for another reason. Almost to the point that I wonder if this isn’t a root of so much of what is wrong. I wonder if even when I was in my “me I like” if this part of me wasn’t still dangling precariously ready to tip things in a bad direction.

When I feel valued and important (this is where sex ties in 
now that I think of it as I connect My wife wanting me sexually to her loving me and wanting me as a man and partner) then I feel confident and loved, however if anything creeps into my overactive mind that makes me think maybe I’m not adequate in her mind. This can run pretty much any direction my unfortunately overactive mind can go. 

Am I good enough lover? Does she miss guys from her past? Does she regret being stuck with just me? Am I funny enough? Does she think this other guy is funnier? Will she like him more due to that? Am I too old for her? I’m not a musician or an actor… Does she wish for a younger guy? I don’t really have a six pack … I don’t make that much money… She flirting with him, doesn’t flirt with me anymore (can’t imagine why…) Whenever I come into doubt on any of these it hurts, my mind tends to find all possible even if nearly impossible possibilities and haunt me with them and I try to cling tighter and beg for love. Unfortunately I’d treated her like **** and that love and reassurance just wasn’t coming, at least not to the level it needed to be at for my need. I think had I treated her better that she would treated me better. The problem is instead of trying to make myself more attractive to her when these issues were small by being the me she fell in love with I made myself less attractive by being possessive, hurt, and all I can describe many of my actions is just plain mean. 

I know My wife doesn’t get the sex thing. She feels that I look at her as “a maid with a hole” meaning the only thing I want her for is house cleaning and sex. I don’t’ think she would get that sex to me ties so much into being loved and desired. It would certainly be hard for me in her spot. I’m not even sure I could explain it fully to me – there seems to be conflict. When I feel unloved though I masturbate, she knows its been with porn – thus purely about sex seems the obvious. I really can’t even explain how it isn’t other than I know it is a lot of it is about pretending to be desired and loved.

At this point it is difficult to say whether the chicken or the egg came first, and for all intent and purpose, don’t think it matters. While some of these things relating to My wife and I together may need directly addressed in time, (in our joint counseling) I think the thing I need to work on here is my opinion of me, my jealousy and low self esteem. 

Like I said it struck me a bit by surprise while writing this that maybe this ugly jealousy and low self esteem may be at the root of much here with me. I think that I need to get where I believe I’m OK, that I’m loveable. I need to be not so needy, I can’t make her responsible for my happiness or self worth. I need to recognize that she is a very loving person and that she can be kind and friendly to others without it being threatening to me. 

God I’m an ass! OK, ha, not very much in the right direction here but Jeez!

In close, I do not believe I’m totally responsible for the mess My wife and I are in. As My wife says two babies of the family with low self esteem issues, and strong desires to avoid conflict (not talk about stuff) are bound to have a bit of probs. Of course once those problems start they tend to spiral back and forth and gain ground. At the same time I fully believe that I have contributed way more than my share need to get to the bottom of things here as I really don’t want to hurt My wife or the children any more. While I don’t think it is possible for anyone to never hurt a loved one, I want to be in a position that it is much, much less likely and that when it does happen I will be prepared to not go in the same course of behavior I’ve exhibited in the past. I want to be a builder not a destroyer.


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> WantsHappiness
> 
> I agree with your statements and yes that is pretty much on the head of the nail what was going on. It is difficult at times for me not to do things of similar, albeit smaller scale. I've even caught myself making a decision and acting on it without her input in the recent past and presented to her. She didn't even get what I was doing it as it hadn't affected her - she thought i did nothing out of line and shouldn't be apologizing...
> 
> ...


Abuse in her past changes things. You mentioned setting counseling appointments and I assume that, due to the medications, you each have somewhat regular visits with a psychiatrist, correct? Do you continue to go to marriage counseling? I ask because a marriage counselor will be trained at identifying the emotional bond she wants to create and can tell her in a straightforward manner how/what needs to be done to get there. However, due to her past she may need to explore this with her psychiatrist, to really heal the damage caused by the abuse. Has she made progress as far as this type of healing? Since you have been unable to get her interested in reading on the subject maybe an objective third party could get through to her on this count. How is her self-esteem? 

One important point is that you are making corrections now, you are making an effort not to act on impulse and you are catching yourself when you do. It’s not all that surprising that she doesn’t realize this is the exact root of one problem, the very problems she’s describing to you when she talks about instances 1 and 2. If she has trouble connecting she probably also has trouble identifying feelings/emotions and their triggers, I know I did and still do. This is something she needs to work on but she may be limited in how far she can get, I don’t know much about dealing with an abusive past. Someone here once posted a list of emotional identifiers and it was very handy. I’m not sure if this is the one I’m thinking of but here is a list of feelings: Feelings Inventory | The Center for Nonviolent Communication and a list of needs: Needs Inventory | The Center for Nonviolent Communication The latter might be more helpful for her in the ways of identifying the intimacy she craves. 

As to your modified question, my answer remains the same. If she can’t connect she may never be in-love with you or anyone else. She cannot get intimacy without the emotions and bonding that goes into it.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

So if you made it through that, you have an idea of how the marriage was from her perspective and how I was at fault. To bring you up to speed my wife says that since last June I've really turned around and while not being perfect have really made her feel loved and appreciated and that she feels very important to me.

To reiterate - yes we are both still in couples counseling.

Her medication is for "edginess" she feels like she is going to pounce at the smallest things without it (scream at children for little things etc.. - never thought of this before but the medication may actually be a hinderence to her communicating when she is unhappy with me). I'm guessing about 8 years for her

My medication is for anxiety as such. Initially it was to let me sleep and such when I'd found she had been having EAs. My head would not let me stop thinking about all the possibilities of everything that may have happened or be happening. It was like an engine that deisals because the plugs got to hot - you try to turn it off but it just keeps going. Me since last October.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Thru June, July and August of last year we had been getting closer - as in a real bond. I could tell she was opening up the castle doors a bit - she even said so.

Then in late August she had gone out with a girlfriend, while she was out when tried to have one of the guys she had bee having an EA with meet up with her, phoning texting... I didn't know about it until September when I saw the phone bill (we were not on a text plan then - so the extra $ made me look. 9:00.. 1:00am... Initially I thought she was texting the friend she was supposed to have been out with as other texts from prior to our vacation were to that same #. Yeah pretty much flipped me out...then found out it was to this guy that lives locally. Did not help...much. First time I can ever remember I went through her purse and found out she had a secret track phone ... yup same # on it. At any rate when I brought this up in counseling it was the whole "Her mad at me for finding out and You don't trust me" thing from her again. Also any progress we made was shut off - she pretty much hated me for the month of September.

Since things have repaired again as I helped her open her store in late October, then died down again by the end of November. Don't get me wrong, things between us now in many ways, are probably as good as they were in our first year of marriage, maybe even better in some ... worse of course in others.

I had asked her then what was it that made her so mad and she would not answer. Recently I tried again and she told me "It may not make sense, but it made me not trust you with my heart again" I pressed further and she used the two examples that I've given here already. She's right - I can't put the two together, don't really think she even can, but sure enough, it IS how she felt and apparently how she still feels as she has not started to open back up again.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> Her medication is for "edginess" she feels like she is going to pounce at the smallest things without it (scream at children for little things etc.. - never thought of this before but the medication may actually be a hinderence to her communicating when she is unhappy with me). I'm guessing about 8 years for her
> 
> My medication is for anxiety as such. Initially it was to let me sleep and such when I'd found she had been having EAs. My head would not let me stop thinking about all the possibilities of everything that may have happened or be happening. It was like an engine that deisals because the plugs got to hot - you try to turn it off but it just keeps going. Me since last October.


I fear the side-affects of the medication are not helping. Antidepressants create a detachment, which robs one of a truthful human response to things.

Thank you for sharing that long essay. It must be hard for you to wear your heart on your sleeve like that. I am assuming that although that piece of writing shows you in quite a sad light, there must be some really outstandingly good aspects to your personality as well. Your humour for instance is very obviously top notch and is the key to getting by in life 

I will wait for your answers to my article before jumping to any further conclusions.


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

The portion in your letter about respect/value touches on the very things discussed here. Based on your understanding of the issue and the time that has passed it seems to me like you have made improvements in this area and are continuing to work on it which is great. It is truly refreshing to see someone have the ability to take such an unabashed look at themselves. 

Respect/value fits in with the second part and I think you are justified in your thoughts on being critical and condescending also. How has this area improved?

I asked about your wife’s self esteem, how is yours? 

As a result of couples counseling what are the things _she_ is working on?


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Mark, that is the wonder of internet anonymity - it IS easier to share here in many ways. As per writing the letter ... I was VERY confused as to how I had become that person. Very bothered by it, very repentant and humbled. Joint counselor wanted my wife to read it. Suggested it several times, she declined.

I've often said on here that if I posted everything thing my wife has "done bad" and everything I have "done good" that everybody on here would feel I was the sweetest guy and feel SO sorry for me and wonder how she could treat me that way. At the same time I said the reverse would hold true - well I doubt any of the women would be extremely jealous of my wife having THAT man described in the letter I wrote.

Believe it or not my wife has said that she has always known that in my heart I've "meant " well. She says my compass just got off whack and what I thought was North, simply wasn't. 

To be sure we both caused each other a ton of pain, hurt, resentment...and those have stewed and built up for years. The trick is we both still loved one another and have done a pretty good job of turning much of it around. We seem to be at a bit of an impasse though.

I once heard that causing another pain is like putting nails into a fencepost. If at some point you stop putting in nails it doesn't make the ones you have already put in disappear. If you remove the ones you put in, there are still holes. It takes a long time and a lot of work to repair that fence post.

So while I know it will take time, I think it will take even more time if I don't work on getting those nail holes filled


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

I'd like to take a moment out and just say that yes, myself and pretty much everyone else posting disagrees with MT's suggested handling of the first example of my disregard with my wife. I would also like to thank MT for not derailing the thread by responding to all of them.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is important to voice disagreement when a post says something you fear the OP or somebody reading later on may take as "gospel" because it was not disputed. I just feel the horse has been sufficiently beaten 

Oh what the heck, maybe just one more...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> I just feel the horse has been sufficiently beaten
> 
> Oh what the heck, maybe just one more...


As you know, the Devil is always in the detail... Once I have all the information, I'm sure you'll be able to let me off on a technicality I think you have a complex personality, and as such everybody can be both "wrong" and "right" about you at the same time. What matters is finding a way of addressing your problems, that really gets down to business.

As for my suggestion about wife complaint #1... you probably could have got away with a bit of "robust machismo" if everything else you were doing at the time was perfect, and in particular, *if you had had the sensitivity to read your wife and other people accurately*. Many women find firmness exhilarating. Even your wife might - but not from you, not with all the other things going on. 

This is a most interesting thread, and you are an unusual poster.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

MT, you just sold your validity card to the lowest bidder with that last comment. For your sake as far as respect on this board, I hope I'm the only one who feels that way. Unfortunately, that is very doubtful. It just won't be discussed.

OMG, you make me want to cry. There is no way I would have stayed with you through all of that. I never understand how/why women stay and take the abuse (in whatever form) or tolerate being made to feel inferior. But reading any one paragraph of that letter would have made me come running back flying into your arms. She loves you and you deserve it. I hope you'll stop or have already stopped doubting yourself. I read your other post last week about her not loving you and felt so bad as I was reading. But now I think you are soooo wrong. She's just afraid to, and you know why. Keep working on fixing that fence post. I'm sure you know about Fireproof movie and Love Dare. Have you tried that?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sis,
Do you really think him taking someone into a messy room 6 YEARS ago is a valid issue to base a lack of trust on? 

I am NOT saying it was right. It was not right. It was wrong. But even if it was really important to her - on an objective level the consequence was - someone saw a messy room. 6 YEARS ago. 

I strive to be a really good H, and overall do WAY more good than bad. But if this was my wifes standard for intimacy I would quietly walk into the closet in the master bath and pack my clothing. 

I don't know what a reasonable time frame to stay upset about something like this BUT it is not measured in years. 








sisters359 said:


> Dangerous advice, b/c the response to #1 is basically saying, "What is important to her is NOT important, so just ignore it." Talk about taking the fast train to resentment.
> 
> Just because cleanliness/orderliness may not be important to one person does not mean the other person is "controlling." One of you might be a truly disgusting slob; the other might be an obsessive germophobe. More likely, however, one of you is male and the other is female. What "does not matter" to him is often part of her core self-image. Ignore it at your peril!
> 
> ...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Mem, my point is that it was NOT the incident 6 years ago--it is something that happens routinely and the vent that sticks in her mind is memorable b/c of the way it resonated emotionally.

As it turns out, I was right--he was routinely disregarding her (among a lot of other disrespectful behaviors). If he had rarely disregarded her wishes, needs, etc., the incident years ago would not have been remembered. 

I distinctly remember certain events that really triggered a strong, visceral response in my even if I couldn't explain it at the time--I knew my reaction and my memory of the event wasn't as important as what underlay that reaction--and it took me a long time to find the words to articulate the underlying issues. 

In this particular case, the "Back Room" complaint is short-hand for "You disrespect me by ignoring or brushing aside my expressed wishes as though they are not important." The OP has already said that he did this frequently. 
Again, if those events were isolated and not part of a pattern, they wouldn't be important or memorable (unless they were particularly painful, breaking trust for example, like one incident of emotional cheating might be pretty darn memorable). 

I'm not saying anyone has a right to hold a grudge for a single, minor marital infraction. I'm saying that considering the complaint of an "old" wrong as nothing MORE than a single, minor marital infraction is often quite misguided. It may well be a clue to the pattern of behaviors that are upsetting but difficult for the person to articulate clearly.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Hello MT, have been working through your article tonight. I will take things in sections if you don't mind. If you do... quick say something be ore I write the rest of this post.

Resentment 2: Controller ...check 
She definately felt this way (prior to last June) for quite a bit of the previous 9 years. It could easily be argued wether she "should" have felt this wasy or not, but the reality is she did feel this way for quite a long time.

Resentment 3: Lack of Romance .. check
Again...Good reason or not, this was a reality(prior to last June) for quite a bit of the previous 9 years. 

Too much closeness ...thought provoking. Her childhood I already mentioned... not loving. Mine while i was loved I really don't even remember hugs and kisses as a child from my parents. I'm sure I was from my mom when I was little but they ended when I was rather young I'd say. Both my parent learned to show love quite a bit more as they aged and are much better with the grand kids.

Underperfomance
Uh no she would want me to not take on so long so it could be over quicker. Just to add to all the interesting twists... my wife never had an orgasm (while awake) until some time last April or May. While 'm sure it is related, will stop there and stick to the direct questions. I am very giving in bed. I love giving oral and strive to please. In teh past I was always made to believe I was a good attentive lover in bed. Reality is I have all but begged my wife for a compliment and she was unable to give one beyond, "I married you didn't I?" so there is the possibilty I just plain suck as far as she is concerned.

The Pleaser
While in the past this was not as much I have been really trying to make up for my past errors by treating her like a princess (our kids even call her Princess  sometimes) - However, I really don't think this one fits. I'm not trying to disregard it as such, just don't see it fitting to well.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Well we seem to be running all over now. Going to the past nine years instead of concentrating on the present and of course we've hit the sex subject, which while certainly related, I was going to hit seperately. Please don't get me wrong I'm fine with this. Just really didn't want to bore people with a lot of the past habits which we have already made great strides toward correcting.

So, let me give you a quick mathematical rundown of our together.

premarital....hmm don't know numbers. Whatever they were it was satisfying and I felt loved and desired. I'd guess maybe 2-3 times per week.

Due to releigious reasons we stopped for maybe 6 months prior to gettng married in July of 2000. When the wedding came (small at her parents house) and went she decided we should not have relations until after our reception in December of that year.

I'd guess the total number for 2001 including the whole 2 times on the 10 day honeymoon to be in the 14 to 20 arena.

2002 was a bit over once a month and 2003 was hard to tell because we were trying for a baby and I was on squirt call. 

2004, 2005 were about 10 each for the year

2006, 2007, 2008 together did not break 10 total

So that brings us to 2009. Stared off miserably poor, picked up quite a bit May thru August. Then September 0, October 1, November 1 (December about 30 seconds - sorry but it is really hard to count that as 1) since then 0


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## lonely101 (Jun 16, 2010)

Being intimate is more than sex. It's knowing each other inside and out. I know this because I am in your wife's position. My husband is not a very intimate person. I'd love for him to make me feel like I'm the only woman in the world. Call me at work and check on me or take me out for coffee. Sometimes it's as simple as shutting up and listening to her every word. Make her feel like you can't get close enough to her. One well placed comment can ignite an entire evening of passion. When's the last time you said something like "yea, she's nice looking, but she doesn't hold a candle to you!" Now I come home and initiate everything. He's perfectly content to sit in his lazy-boy and sleep. Add some excitement. It doesn't have to be extravagant. She will appreciate the gesture. And let me also point this out...One good turn deserves another. It's like dominoes; once the first deed is done, she'll might try to do something back for you.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

OMG,
Have you considered sending the letter you wrote to your personal therapist to your wife as an email? Once you send it, she might read it some day, if not right away. The letter reads very intimate to me. You were tuned with your innermost thoughts and naked with your feelings. It was touching. If she's been feeling frustrated and sad that you two have not been connecting emotionally, this letter at least will give her a glimpse into your own struggles and vulnerability.

Based on what you shared here, I get the impression that she may perceive you as controlling, dominant, and insensitive. She will get to see different side of you: insightful, tuned with own feelings, aware of own shortcomings and struggling to address them, etc. I know that it's much more difficult to be that naked and insightful with our own feelings when we're having face to face conversations, especially if there's a long history of friction and misunderstandings between two parties. That's when the writing can really help. You could be open and vulnerable with your own demons, fears, joy and love in your writing. Share the side of you that she rarely gets to see/hear though writing. 

It also seems that she is very reluctant to share her own feelings and thoughts with you, and that could feel very lonely to her. She might feel that there's no point in sharing those since you wouldn't understand her anyway. Once someone is in that mode, it's very difficult to feel anything for the spouse. I've been there. She'll need to see hope that it could work, and that you could really understand her. I think that your writing can do just that. Give her a hope and opening that the relationship could work. Another advantage of writing could be that you have time to respond, taking the impulse and habitual reactions out of the interaction. If she feels safe in writing, she could actually share with you her own feelings, thoughts, insights, etc. 

I think that you have what it takes to rebuild the intimacy with her and to restore love that flows out of you. Not too many men are so tuned with both their alpha and beta sides , but you seem to have both.

Best of luck to you!


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> Hello MT, have been working through your article tonight. I will take things in sections if you don't mind. If you do... quick say something be ore I write the rest of this post.


OK, I have read your responses.

I was thrown slightly in the beginning becuase you seemed to be a bit too understanding and easy going about the lack of sex, the lack of intimacy, the lack of respect and compliments. However, I am thinking some of that could be due to your being on an antidepressant. Without it, you would probably be as edgy as hell and more motivated to DO SOMETHING.

So yes, by what you say, your faults seem to be on the side of lacking sensitivity to others, and over-controlling.

If you put these two things right, then if she still does not want any form of intimacy, the ball shifts to her court, as far as working on things.

The fact that you are both on the same antidepressant just stinks. I think your wife's sex drive is low and probably made lower by the drug. Things could improve, but I don't hold out a lot of hope as far as having a blissful marriage goes. That takes two people actively giving 110 percent.

If you work on yourself, you can have a goal of being the best YOU you can be. Life might recognise that and reward you with a better wife. That could be her or a new model.

I must declare my hand here. I hate the way drugs are dished out like sweets. I had a client last year who was put on an antidepressant for a short term external crisis. The crisis passed, but six years later, the guy was still on the pills. Why? because his doctor did not even to check to see if the crisis had passed.

His marriage collapsed, due in part I believe, to his personality change on the drug. Antidepressants can do many things, but making people more exciting is not one of them.

Drugs are great when they are needed. Unfortunately, a lot of money is made from foisting them on a dumbed-down public, so whereas excellent clinical research lies behind many drugs, the reality is that they are dished out indiscriminately and, as in the case of my client, there effects and duration are often not monitored.

Thus the way that they are applied in practice bears little relation to the regime employed during the highly monitored clinical testing prior to their licensing. IMHO.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Sorry I got behind responding to people....I will try to catch main questions/points now.

WantsHappiness
I'm really never sure about her self perception. She is a complicated little lady. It goes up and down I'd guess. While in the past I'm sure my actions had a help in a downswing for her, as of late I'd guess it is mostly just related to herself, not really me or the kids, I'd imagine her store not being successful and on the verge of being closed due to that can't help - it is really a huge thing to her.

As far as things she is working on as a result of counseling. This would of course be better answered by her. We are now much better communicators, she is now able to 'sometimes' bring things up when they bother her instead of burying them - I rather believe she thinks she shouldn't have to though, that I should never error again. Counseling, not counseling, not sure but in the last month she has been doing a remarkable job of being an initiator...actually saying "I love you", instead of just responding "I love you too". Prior to this she had done that only one time, the day after I mentioned that it doesn't happen. Even lately she has called me at work to share some joy. To be short, no we've never gone into her bad behaviors in counseling. It may come in time... we are still going.

Me, through counseling and a better understanding of how I became the person I'd been and how to avoid becoming that person again, I'm feeling much better. You may not get this but I have replaced my self label of undesirable with undesired. That took a lot of work. While in general it is better it still leaves me with a sadness, being as the one I wish to be desired by is the one that does not. Lets face it though, you can't really make yourself desire somebody you don't desire, if somebody doesn't click your switch, the electricity doesn't flow.

So that is rather where I'm at. In general I've pretty happy, yet the thought of my marriage dissolving whenever we can get my wife solvent and missing her and the kids is a cloud looming in my mind. Yes, I've pretty much gone to the "I love her, I want her to be happy, so ...set her free to go find her happiness"

That being said, their is that time between now and whenever then is (could be quite a considerable amount of time) and I am trying to love her the best way i can and as the original intent of this thread indicates - trying to find a way to help make her to open some of her castle walls to me.

Yes still going to marriage counseling. As per her getting counseling for the mental, physical and likely sexual abuse. I think she has touched on it in a meeting or so but never ridden it out. It would be painful and she tries to avoid that sort of conflict at all cost. As per her "low sex drive" she pretty much made comment from our second year of marriage onward that she "should probably go and have that checked out". Never did and I became rather resentful at hearing it again and again.

I went to my own counselor for a while, she mentioned it would probably be good for her to do so as well, but never has acted on it. Quite frankly, if I didn't make the marriage counselor appointments, I don't think she'd ever make one of those for us either. She complained we never went out enough in those 9 years but never once made a date for us during that same period. Yes i get that she wanted me to want to do it. But I was working 60+ hours a week to support us and she was a stay at home mom. Likewise I mentioned in my letter that she said she felt the only reason I wanted her around was to be a "hole and a maid". What I didn't say is those would be the absolute last things I would have wanted to keep her around for. You saw my numbers posted for sex, the greatest percentage of which were dead fish. Well divide those in about 2 or 3 and you will get the number of times she vacuumed the floors or wiped off a dining table in those same number of years. She was pretty non-existent in both fields. To be fair I knew she was a pitiful housekeeper when I married her, i just mistakenly thought it was a being single living on your own thing.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> Yes, I've pretty much gone to the "I love her, I want her to be happy, so ...set her free to go find her happiness"


I agree with that sentiment except for one thing. By saying that "I will set her free", instead of "I will set myself free", there is an element of guilt showing, and thus a little bit of the "people pleaser".

Thus, to use a metaphor based on what you said above, You have gone from speaking the language of "I am undesirable" to "I am undesired by her", but you still speak with an accent...


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> How do you become more intimate with your spouse? Not sexually. My wife has said that is a major barrier of ours. I'm pretty sure she is doing nothing to help it but maybe she is and I'm not catching her signals. It is also very likely she wants "it" but has no idea how to go about achieving "it" either...or maybe even what "it" is.
> 
> So help me if you have some ideas...how do we go about leading into this? And maybe even "What is your definition of it"
> 
> Thanks



Tell her all yer secrets. 
ALL of them.
That means thoughts, fantasies, all of it. Then you'll be more intimate.
Intimacy is about "sharing" things that you only share with her.
Most people have a certain amount of thought that they keep to themselves... even with spouse as they are worried about the reaction.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

OMG, she hasn't left, right? Not physically, anyway. So there is still hope. Do not give up--you are doing a lot of things right. Do not go too far in the other direction (letting her walk all over you), but it never, ever hurts to err on the side of caution and let her know you are considering her p.o.v. but you are also feeling "threatened," as in, at risk of losing too much that is important to you, so sometimes you will take a stand out of respect for yourself. The problem, of course, is that you took that stand all the time, out of some need to be in control, or thrill of being in control, or whatever. So it's harder for you to find the balance, since you were uncomfortable with the vulnerability of giving up some control. 

From one woman's point of view, I will say that if she was "done," you'd know it. There would be no "giving it a try." Something is keeping her attached. At some point, you two will have to decide if it is too little to make the marriage work for each of you--a sad but honest outcome. Are you there yet? If not, be patient--very patient. Years of negative interactions (from her p.o.v.) cannot and will not be overcome quickly, that's why this is a trust issue now. But a trust issue is very different from "I have no spark of desire for you and cannot stand the thought of you touching me." Right now, she may not want you to touch her, but she still "wants to want" it. A vast gulf between the two things, so yeah, there is still hope and I think you are doing a lot that is right. If you reach your threshold of waiting, that's ok. You may reach your threshold before she can get where you need her to get. Do not blame each other for this. You are both human and can only move as fast/slow as you can.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Susan
Thanks for your support. I do believe she loves me as I said earlier. Don't know if she will ever, be in love with me. I think it should be obvious I haven't yet given up, but at the same time, I'm a realist and know other guys get her motor running and I don't. I also now have my self esteem back that I will not be happy with that forever. Lets face it...it will be likely be at least a few years at this point until we can recover from our store endeavor and it is turned around or she can find some other sort of extremely low stress job (she can't handle typical work pressures - even something like heading up the jewelry boat at Target is too much) that pays well - rather an oxymoron I know

Yes, had been told about Fireproof quite some time ago and have been waiting for a good time to watch it. trick is this. If I tell her what it is, then I doubt she will want to watch it, if I just rent it for us to watch I could then be easily labeled as controlling in her mind, and therefore take another step backwards as she is determined to see me return to the me that once was. Please note, I rent movies for us all the time, she rarely does. not that she doesn't want to watch them, just she just doesn't do it. The difference here would be that instead of me hoping to have entertainment it would be like a "message" thing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Got it. Thanks. 



sisters359 said:


> Mem, my point is that it was NOT the incident 6 years ago--it is something that happens routinely and the vent that sticks in her mind is memorable b/c of the way it resonated emotionally.
> 
> As it turns out, I was right--he was routinely disregarding her (among a lot of other disrespectful behaviors). If he had rarely disregarded her wishes, needs, etc., the incident years ago would not have been remembered.
> 
> ...


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

WantsHapiness,

Thank you for the links I will look into them

"As to your modified question, my answer remains the same. If she can’t connect she may never be in-love with you or anyone else. She cannot get intimacy without the emotions and bonding that goes into it."

I agree with you here, just looking for possible ways to get drips of water into the cracks so that they may have a chance of freezing and making the cracks larger


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Hunt,

While I agree with you here, what I'm working on is the next step. What you have mentioned has already been covered.

Thanks

As per the SSRIs well to be sure they are doing one job. I have reduced my dosage by a bit. My wife back July or August of last year tried unsuccessfully to slowly reduce hers.

On my part I can truly say that they have no real effect on me not being PISSED about the lack of sex. I've just gotten myself to the reality of it and do not believe acting like a child not getting what they want is the best answer. 

Does she KNOW this is a huge need of mine going unmet? yes
Do I wish she wold at least show an interest in find a way? yes
Do I think my demanding and anger will help? no

It's funny but the thing that does seem to be making a difference (just a tiny bit) is that while I do still give her hugs or hugs with kisses on the neck, I don't hope it will go anywhere...I just walk away. I've seen this before that the "indifference" thing would be an attractor. Wouldn't try it though because it would have been fake, a trick as such. Now it is real, I expect nothing. Heck I'm to the point i 'm not sure what I would do if she got turned on enough to want me.

Reality is though I just don't fake stuff, I don't threaten, not the kids not my wife. I don't ell my kids that they will be grounded for life if they don't do something, I don't try to be somebody I'm not to my wife. I couldn't act indifferent to her when I wasn't.

So I am trying to find what i can do. It sounds like keep doing more of the same and don't give up is pretty much the answer, but I think there are some things in here to listen to a bit harder than I was. Many good thoughts by many people kind enough to take their time to read my long posts and respond with their good thoughts.


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

I maintain what I said after reading your letter, I think you have an amazingly clear view of the situation and are doing what you need to in order to rectify your past offenses, others in this world have been doing much worse for much longer. I agree with the other posters that if your wife were to read the letter she might have a different perspective. I understand her refusal to do so but it’s more of the avoidance tactic which she needs to get out of the habit of. 

It’s good that she’s making some improvements in that area. Do you know if she feels a difference when she communicates? 

OMG (did you do that on purpose, lol), I want to tell you something that happened with my husband and I recently. I previously mentioned that I am/was an avoider. I personally think that the abuse your wife endured has a LOT to do with the way she copes and maybe her sex drive so it’s a little different but bear with me. We had a heated argument that got out of control. In the past I would shut down, ignore, avoid and just wait until I didn’t feel mad anymore and whenever that happened (usually a day or less) we would resume as normal never dealing with the problems. Fast forward to this incident in April, I’ve been working on my communication and I know the right thing to do is talk this out but my husband’s defenses were up and I just didn’t know how to get through. Well I forced the issue. I forced myself out of the norm and the rewards were truly astonishing. It took a couple tries but once we talked out what had happened and the whys and hows it was like a giant weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I can't remember feeling this kind of resolution before and who knew it could come from simply talking? The bond I felt to my husband was strengthened and I can’t express how wonderful that felt. We got through it on our own without attacking one another and had really worked through it for the first time probably since we got married and maybe even before. My problem now is tempering that because I don’t seem to have a governor. 

Your wife can realize these things too. She has set awfully high standards for you (you’re never supposed to make a mistake again?) and what keeps coming through to me is that you might be tipping in the direction doing/giving too much. Don’t get me wrong, you can’t get enough self-improvement but be careful that you’re not the only one working on this thing and that you don't smother her. Make sure you maintain your well-deserved self-respect. She had two EA’s here, she is not innocent in any way, shape or form. I really think she needs to make just as big of an effort as you are and it doesn’t sound like she’s gone all the way in those efforts. 

How can you help her get to that point? Stay the course. She wants it, that’s huge. Share your thoughts and feelings with her, not in a burdensome way but show her you can open up to her and lead by example. If she feels the resulting bond like I did she might be more open to doing so herself. 

You could skip Fireproof and go right to the Love Dare, nothing wrong with that and the Dare (I believe) is something you do on your own.

Oh, do I understand correctly when you say you’ve never gone into her bad behaviors in counseling to mean that the counselor is not aware of the EAs?


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

lonelyone
I'm going to pretty much tell you where things have been for the last year (I'm not discounting that there are many years of hurt in the past for her to recover from, just letting you know where things have been for a while) relating to some of the things you mention.

Every morning I leave for work and she is not yet awake she is left a flower in our bed - she knows this is my kiss and hug to her. Yes, even throughout the winter. 

If ever another women is in the mix, actress whatever, she gets something to the effect of "She's OK, but not smokin' like you." Even if we see a dress we both like, instead of complimenting the dress I give a "That would look rockin on you". She has said she looks this way or that (now good things) and I have told her that she must be seeing things odd 'cause I don't see that. She argued back and I said maybe I have "(her name) goggles" then because I couldn't see what she was talking about.

Used to call her most every day from work to sometimes just say hello and let her know I was thinking of her. Don't do often anymore unless I need to. Her choice, says she doesn't like to talk on phone and I was irritating her. Oddly in the past month she has 
me here and there for little things... 

I try as often as possible to listen to her attentively. The kids not know they cannot just interrupt , I often stop even when she starts talking when I'm on my way from one place to another and listen to her. I make a point to look at her new creations, to ask about her day, to get up and go to her when she has something on the computer she wants to show me even when I really just want to rest a few minutes on the sofa. She absolutely LOVES talking about herself and her projects 

My wife and I have come to know her as the kitty cat and me as the puppy dog. Puppy dog nearly always likes to get and give hugs, snuggles, playfulness. Kittycat has her moments but more often wants her space. So yeah kitty cat has as much attention from me as she can take.

I open doors and car doors for her, I talk her up in front of friends and family, I make a big effort to hep with chores, dishes, cooking, cleanup etc. She appreciates the effort here. The door thing is a bit hard for her because she has the "I can do this on my own" thing in her head but she does make the effort and allows it 

Yesterday, when she called that her vehicle would not start I left work immediately to go get her and then went and purchased and installed the new starter that night. She did make a big point of saying THANK YOU.

We used to be going out twice a month or so and that has deeply dropped off due to the financial rut. I know I need to work on thinking up free/cheap date stuff a bit harder... The other issue is she has headaches SO often we have lost a few to those and it is hard to actually make plans in a sense. I guess I need to get a bit better at having well laid plans broken and juts do it and get over it if need be.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OMG,
Based on your description of the beginning of the relationship, do you think she ever had much desire for you? '

I only ask because it sure seems like as soon as you committed to marrying her, your sex life totally crashed. There seems no basis for ceasing sex between the ceremony and the reception - well other than she didn't want to have sex. And twice on a 10 day holiday - for young people - that is a huge red flag. 

I only raise this because IME you can't change someones raw desire for you that much. 




OneMarriedGuy said:


> Susan
> Thanks for your support. I do believe she loves me as I said earlier. Don't know if she will ever, be in love with me. I think it should be obvious I haven't yet given up, but at the same time, I'm a realist and know other guys get her motor running and I don't. I also now have my self esteem back that I will not be happy with that forever. Lets face it...it will be likely be at least a few years at this point until we can recover from our store endeavor and it is turned around or she can find some other sort of extremely low stress job (she can't handle typical work pressures - even something like heading up the jewelry boat at Target is too much) that pays well - rather an oxymoron I know
> 
> Yes, had been told about Fireproof quite some time ago and have been waiting for a good time to watch it. trick is this. If I tell her what it is, then I doubt she will want to watch it, if I just rent it for us to watch I could then be easily labeled as controlling in her mind, and therefore take another step backwards as she is determined to see me return to the me that once was. Please note, I rent movies for us all the time, she rarely does. not that she doesn't want to watch them, just she just doesn't do it. The difference here would be that instead of me hoping to have entertainment it would be like a "message" thing.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Questions

Agreed, been working on the for a year now. Seem to be at a bit of an impasse though. Maybe that impasse is simply the need for more time to affirm a real change not just a temporary one, maybe it needs a shot of adrenaline though so I'm searching a bit.

I used to have the letter printed out and laying on the dresser for her to read if she so chose. She knew it was there and avoided it. Eventually I cleaned of the dresser and ditched it (mostly out of frustration than cleanliness unfortunately). I think it may be a good idea to print it out and put it back again... for when she becomes ready.

Yes, I have to pretty much beg to find out the smallest information about anything deep within her - the REAL stuff. The surface stuff loves to talk about herself...


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MarkTwain said:


> ... but you still speak with an accent...


Darn Brits REALLY aught to learn English:rofl:


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Mark,

Ah, but I am motivated to do something. Certainly, either you have not had the time to read all mys posts (understandable) or you are being blinded by your dislike for the SSRIs if you do not see that this thread IS out of motivation. 

Yes, I became rather callous to her (to be fair though we shared many, many good times through the years - unfortunately dampened by dark clouds), things have changed however for the past year. The things mentioned really no longer apply on a day to day basis. To say the memory or the fear of them returning no longer exists would be rather blind though.

"If you work on yourself, you can have a goal of being the best YOU you can be. Life might recognize that and reward you with a better wife. That could be her or a new model." 

That's been goal one along with not letting her treatment, or lack of treatment of me, effect the way I want to be as a person and husband. In as sense to be an actor not a reactor. Part of me sees you jumping on this quickly as an easy way to "doormat"ness. or that it is weak. Weak? Seriously? This may be the hardest thing I've ever done. I'm not saying she isn't being told when she treats me poorly, just that I don't in turn treat her poorly.
To be honest, many of times I do just suck it up. Got to learn to chose your battles as well. Not that it is really a battle but I can't overwelm her ...she stress out and shuts down really easy.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Vino,
May be true...sometime down the road. Truth is she shows little interest in hearing much of my thoughts or activities or ...

I'd recently completed an internet video advertisement for a press release that was going out. Had spent many hours on it and had to stay late working on it to get done. Asked her if she wanted to see it. She said, maybe later. So later came and went. I brought up that it hurt that she was so disinterested. She apologized and said she had no idea it was a "big deal" to me and the I had put so much "Creativity" into it. And to this day has not seen the video...

Did give me some insight to match what I'd already had a clue at. She really doesn't value work and effort unless it is seen by her as 'creative' . Thus her constant lust and crushes for musicians, artists, actors etc...


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Sisters,

While you are off on the whole control issue it is to be expected. I really only gave you you one view of the marriage and it was in a sense from her point of view where I was the bad guy. 

The control thing is not as much a difficulty with me giving up control as it is figuring out the balance. Essentially she desires to be responsible for very little, in all honesty I think if she could be responsible for nothing she'd go for it.

I'm not trying to get into my wife's past and present shortcomings here but do want to give a bit of understanding to the control balance thing. It's is tricky because as I said earlier she is a person that will avoid doing, yet expect it to get done. For many years she said we needed counseling yet never would make an appointment, to this days till has never made one. Complained for years we did not go out enough but...never set up a date in that time (she has set up a couple in the past year). 

It's difficult and I don't want to mislead. My wife is very intelligent. She is one of the most tool capable women I've ever met. She is artistic, she is quite talented in a number of creative and crafty ways. If her boutique was in Boston or San Fran it would probably be the talk of the town! She is empathetic. She is beautiful! Most beautiful face my lips have ever touched. She is an awesome cook, we rarely eat mac and cheese, I prefer many of her meals to Olive Garden or the Macaroni Grill!

I think the balance is working out better as while i am still having to do most everything I've been running things by her prior to setting them in stone. Seems to be a workable solution. A couple times I've caught myself forgetting to run it by her and apologized ans she said no big deal. Two reason I think. One because I have checked enough that she now believes I value her thoughts/opinions/desires. Two because it probably wasn't a thing on her radar that would have set her off.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

WantsHappiness

No actually the first time I saw it as omg here I was a bit confused as I was reading it as "oh my gosh" and it just didn't make sense in the sentence! 

Great for you, well if you can put the governor on! LOL

Yes, we've had times like that and felt a closeness - rather strange after a disagreement isn't it? To feel closer?

She knows she did things wrong. I think she is still pretty set that anything she did out of line was due to me causing it. I would find it extremely unlikely that she would accept EA as a term describing what she did. 

We recently changed counselors due to the one we were going to leaving the direct practice world and concentrating on training counselors and his books and such. He knew, but also was a very astute counselor and knew the best chance of getting somewhere with us was to work on the one most likely to be pliable. Had the concentration been put on the EAs that would probably have been our last appointment.

At the risk of this thread really ripping off in the wrong direction. She has gone completely underground with her Twitter and her forum where she was having the EAs. She has made her Twitter private (she was upset that I was upset the she used to post when she had her masturbation orgasms on Twitter and other such things like her obsession with guys making her woozy and such) and it has remained so.

There was a forum that she had met several guys on (the operator she'd had a crush on) One she constantly had sex talk with- oral, anal, online dates with him. They were each others online bf/gf she became know as the forum gilf when our granddaughter was born and she was quite proud of it. I know she talked to them about her newfound orgasms ans used to tell them about it. This is just a bit of the stuff i found in the public area- most of her time was spent in the private area and on the chats. I don't really want to go much further. The other guy (local one) I saw very little public interaction with them on the forum, yet she told me he was her best friend - better than the one she had all the sex talk with. So you already know the story of her trying to meet with the local one. At the end of April the forum was to close. So I went on to see what was going on between her and her sextalk boy. She had told me months ago that she had put a stern, definitely no way any more of this message out on the forum. So I find very little but do find a couple recent references to her being his mistress and her flirting with it and saying that is what she will miss most. Also another reference about him wanking to her pics. So I go to the new forum where they are mostly all moving to and see her caption under her name. It said "Is madly love with OG, who unfortunately has a thing for farm animals" (reference to mistress comment from the previous forum)

I pressed these issues and of course she's pissed that I was snooping on her. Doesn't get why I'm upset. Can't/won't show me where she said for it to stop. I explained again how these things made me feel. I explained how her sacrificing my feelings in order to not offend OG made me feel. Next day she told me she took care of it. Didn't want to make a big deal so she just put"please do not put anything here) in her signature area. I've the funny feeling she didn't hear the part about how I feel she is more concerned about offending him than hurting me.

They are both forum admins so she said he originally wrote "Is madly love with OG", and that she added the end to be funny and turn it back on him. FWIW this sounds very likely. Surprisingly enough she is active nearly every day on the forum (after all she is a mod) yet has never posted another public post since the day of my bringing things up. They have a paid only area that cannot be seen by the public.... and chat. So maybe she did hear after all and figures i can't be hurt by what i can't see... strangely though I lean much toward the she can't be confronted by what i don't see or that I've got absolutely no business seeing what she posts anyway.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MeM
Fair enough question..don't really know the answer. You're right..don't really know. Yup, didn't thrill me either and red flag yup - red flag for a bull, we both had our share of resentment through the years.

But time will tell...




There caught up! Thank you all for your time and thoughts, much appreciated!


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

Wow...
First, I'd like to comment that you're very lovable.
Just look at the number of people who so care about you to spend so much time reading and following your story .

It's a shame that when people go through some form of transformation internally, their close family and relatives often fail to see the changes. Because their perception and viewing lenses have been set by the shared history, it's hard to see them as they are "now" using the new lenses. They can't see the changes until they themselves are ready and willing to change their own perception.

How we see others is but a reflection of how we see ourselves. When I tell a story about others, it is really not about them but how I see myself deep down, maybe subconsciously. I know that a lot of people would disagree with this statement, but that's been my truth. That doesn't mean that I don't see other people in a negative light. I do. However, when I come to my senses, it becomes easier trying to see them in a different light, knowing that those negative traits are my own.

If you're ready to change and continue your journey toward become a better person, you can make loving decisions which don't involve sacrifice from anyone. You can still see your W as lovingly as possible, knowing that she'll see you when she is ready to see you. Meanwhile, you can still feel good about yourself and the progress you are making. Just because she can't see the changes you have made, it doesn't take anything away from your progress. It's important to recognize how far we have come and be kind to ourselves. I think that you're doing wonderful, and you have every reason to feel good about yourself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OMG,
The reason I bring this up is simple. In most sexless marriages the person who doesn't want sex creates a list of "flaws" in their starved partner that they claim are the "cause" of the desire problem. 

I know nothing about you. I will however give you something to think about. If you have a good job and are successful dealing with co-workers and customers you are likely a fairly reasonable person. If she is unable to deal with even a moderate stress job - typically that means she has trouble interacting with other adults. 

Given that - ask yourself a question. Do you treat her the way you treat the other folks in your life? If so, and everyone else mostly responds positively, then I doubt the behaviors she mentioned are causing her lack of desire. 

Worse I think she has established a pattern with you where she makes up a very untrue reason for not having sex. And you accept it. 

I LOVE my wife just as much as I trust her and she respects me. If she had told me after our wedding ceremony that we had to be celibate until the reception half a year later I would have firmly demanded an honest explanation for what was happening. And failing to get one I would have gotten an annulment. PS - like you we didn't wait until we were married. So she would have been stopping our sexual relationship cold after a year and half of being intimate. And to do that with some insultingly obvious untruth - would be the ultimate sign of disrespect to me. 

Your wife is not OBLIGATED to feel lust for you, nor to have sex with you. But she IS obligated to be honest with you. 

My guess - she is going to continue to string you along with a never ending list of "issues" that she changes as you go along such that you "never" earn the right to have sex with her. 

Actually it is a nice deal for her, she gets a husband on a never ending quest for perfection while she gets to relax and tell you "she simply can't cope" with even a moderately difficult job. 

If you don't see the link there - I will point it out. If she said 

"Sorry I am not attracted to you, never really have been but I do like you and DO need your financial support for the rest of my life" Oh and by the way - I know that making "me" happy makes you happy which is why you are so nice to me. But the same isn't true in reverse so I am not going to have sex with you just to make you happy because I don't actually care enough about your happiness to make the effort." 

As for how you were behaving up until the last year. Of COURSE you were difficult and hard to deal with. Your wife clearly doesn't care about your needs and hadn't for years. Why would you expect that not to impact your interaction with her. I am not justifying your behavior just pointing out that it seems like all the burden of fixing this marriage is on you. And there seems to be minimal focus on her pattern of deception and non-loving behavior. 

One last observation so you understand this is all gender neutral. Men who starve their wives of sex also lie about why and in a fairly similar way. 

I just hate to see people being deceived and chasing their tails for their whole lives. It really is a type of emotional abuse.



OneMarriedGuy said:


> MeM
> Fair enough question..don't really know the answer. You're right..don't really know. Yup, didn't thrill me either and red flag yup - red flag for a bull, we both had our share of resentment through the years.
> 
> But time will tell...
> ...


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Questions
Thanks for the hug 

Yes, it is hard for people to view others that are making an effort to change with only the new goggles instead of letting the old goggles in. The slightest trigger from the "old" habits can flip those new goggles to old and have you looking through the old again. I say this as I've seen it from my wife AND I've seen it from me towards my wife. Fact is she has made huge strides in this as well.

Our counselor had said this to us as well, perhaps both my wife and myself need a reminder of this, everything we 'know' doesn't become inset and a good habit until practiced quite a bit.

Part of me keeping "MY Path" in line here is trying to help others, and in doing so reminding myself of the path I feel I need to stay on. Thank you for sharing AND reading, I know it is starting to get like a novel.

MEM
I know it may seem absurd, but I worked with her at one point prior to us dating. What seemed to me to be the smallest of things would truly just hit her like it was all consuming and unbearable. It is real.

Yes I've been given pretty much every excuse known to man and the inhabitants of the Star Wars, Star Trek, DC and Marvel universes. In the end they simply mean "I don't want to be with you"

Yes, I've felt one or another of these edited versions many a time...

"Sorry I am not attracted to you, never really have been but I do like you and by the way - I don't want to hurt your feelings by coming right out with that so will give endless excuses."

"I am not going to have sex with you just to make you happy because I shouldn't have to if I don't feel like it and I don't actually care enough about your happiness to make the effort to work on the real reasons why I don't feel like it" 

On the other hand even if these are her real thoughts, they do have possibility for change. My wife is not a player. She IS a survivor though. She would concur, I'm sure. (perhaps I should write everything from here on out in rhyme -could make a more entertaining read)


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

So it seems the whole sex intimacy thing is fully in swing in this thread right alongside the emotional intimacy so let me throw out a couple things just to stir and confuse the pot. She is a sweet onion and has many layers that I fully believe even she is not fully aware of all of them.

I have three basic theories. 

The first involves the abuse and is simply compounded by SSRIs and behavior issues within our marriage.

She strongly believes and so do I that she was sexually abused when she was young, things lead toward at least being forced to have a penis in her mouth. The following is my case for sex being a control/power thing for her as would make sense from an abused child that was powerless and control-less while sexually abused.

I would say in the 10 years of sex prior to me that my wife was pretty active sexually. She had partners somewhere in the 30 or so area, some longer term, some just a single time. 

She became quite proficient orally - we all know this takes practice and desire (to have the power with being really good at something that is very desired and that few have a reputation at being really good at and the PW control that comes with it).

Once while I was still just her friend/coworker she said "I'm like a guy sexually". At the time I interpreted that as she gets horny and has to have it often. I now tend to believe that it was more to the "I like to have 'em once and then dump 'em" (this would leave them wanting her after she showed them just how GOOD she was) 

The situation with the guy she was dating before me was this. They would go out dancing and drinking once a week and afterwards have sex that night, maybe the next day as well. He would then leave and she would not hear from him until he called to make plans for the next weekend. After they broke up and I started dating her she wanted me to contact this guy and tell how he had screwed up by not wanting to be with her more and how wonderful she was. (power...control?) 

While being awesome at oral she also had a few rules that lean toward abuse reactions imo. I could never be over her in any way. Not standing, or sitting. Not even 69 with her on top. It had to be me on back and her down between legs. Only one time was it OK for me to be standing. (she needs to feel in control)

I mentioned that before last April May she had never had an orgasm before while awake. She told me they had come during particularly uncomfortable dreams where she was being raped. 

I truly believe sex for my wife is most enjoyable when it is "wrong/dangerous" in some way. It is somewhat hard to describe, but almost in a sense when she feels she will/may regret it later-ish. I pretty much am convinced that the only times in recent years that she has initiated and "participated" in sex with me is due to her having another man on her mind, either waking up from a dream in the morning or after "chatting" etc.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OMG,
What I am trying to tell you is that it is very likely the reasons are not fixable. If they were she very likely would have told you by now given how much emotional havoc a sexless marriage creates. 

If it were me, I would sit her down and have the "talk". And the talk goes like this. 

I understand there are things you want me to do to improve the emotional component of our marriage. I am all for that and as you can tell am committed to improving. 

Separate from that we need to have an honest, unfiltered likely raw conversation about sexual attraction. Because the truth is - all that other stuff will make me a better friend, companion. But NONE of it is going to create desire. And that has been the real weakness in this marriage from day 1. So start telling me what creates desire, and what dampens desire. 

For instance - I can guarantee you she has been in situations where a guy has behaved a certain way and it aroused her. And his behavior might have had nothing to do with her. Maybe it was a guy handling a difficult customer. Or giving a presentation in a really skilled/confident way.

This is NOT a critique of your wife. That type reaction is totally normal and has nothing to do with infidelity of any type. The thing is to get her to tell you what arouses her. 

BTW - she is going to do everything she can to avoid this conversation. It is frightening and awkward. So you need to be firm or she will blow you off. And you have to decide what firm means. For me, and I have never had to have "that" particular talk, but when stonewalled on other topics I have just said "no further conversation about anything else happens until this conversation is concluded to my satisfaction". And that means other than kid schedules I simply go radio silent. 

As for her emotional sensitivity let me tell you a story. My wife and I accidentally got pregnant before marriage - in fact before we were living together. For SURE before she was in love with me. I moved in and there was a lot of conflict. She was very embarrassed about the pregnancy - she comes from a religious catholic family. I was generally doing the best I could to be supportive. While we were fighting a lot we were also having sex daily - because - fortunately at least the attraction part of the puzzle has been good all along. 

Overall I felt she was in general taking out her unhappiness with the situation on me. And to a degree I was tolerant - hey lets face it - she was going through a 9 month pregnancy - my physical participation was that I came really hard to start it all off. So I was not looking for parity - just an absence of "over the top" behavior. One afternoon one of us spilled a very small amount of water on the floor. We both walked into the bathroom together and I pulled 9 tiles of toilet paper off the roll. She erupted - full throttle fury. We only needed 2 tiles. I instantly responded in kind. About an hour later I calmly told her that if she was going to react that way to basically "nothing" I was moving out and would agree to the standard formula for child support after our child was born. I wasn't bluffing, I was simply defining a behavioral boundary. She reluctantly acknowledged she had over reacted. I told her that I wanted feedback - but was not going to stay with someone who was emotionally abusive. Guess what - that behavior pattern never repeated. See she is a survivor also. And she knew that the good guy she was with was really about to pack his bags and his paycheck and not look back. 

I would be lying if I claimed smooth sailing post that one conversation. NOT. We had conflict. But the concept of proportionality applied. Full throttle fury was reserved for big stuff. Mild irritation was conveyed for little stuff. 

And for many things I taught her the magic phrase "next time it would be better if you could do X when Y happens." 

And yes - unfortunately I did have to warn her that I would leave every once in a while when I felt she was way out of her swim lane. But that was 21 years ago. And over time things steadily got better. 

And ultimately we both converged on the golden rule. And we are both equally comfortable getting inside each others personal space, going eye to eye and asking "are you really sure you would be ok if I do to you, what you just did to me?"

I know this is difficult but often the more you buffer a "sensitive" from fair consequence, the more difficult they become. 




OneMarriedGuy said:


> Questions
> Thanks for the hug
> 
> Yes, it is hard for people to view others that are making an effort to change with only the new goggles instead of letting the old goggles in. The slightest trigger from the "old" habits can flip those new goggles to old and have you looking through the old again. I say this as I've seen it from my wife AND I've seen it from me towards my wife. Fact is she has made huge strides in this as well.
> ...


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

The second involves a total self-centeredness in sex.

She became quite proficient orally - we all know this takes practice and desire (to be accredited with being really good at something that is very desired and that few have a reputation at being really good at, it is all about her).

Once while I was still just her friend/coworker she said "I'm like a guy sexually". At the time I interpreted that as she gets horny and has to have it often. I now tend to believe that it was more to the "I like to have 'em once and then dump 'em" (its all about her -use em and lose em, whatever rings her bell) 

The situation with the guy she was dating before me was this. They would go out dancing and drinking once a week and afterwards have sex that night, maybe the next day as well. He would then leave and she would not hear from him until he called to make plans for the next weekend. After they broke up and I started dating her she wanted me to contact this guy and tell how he had screwed up by not wanting to be with her more and how wonderful she was. (Lets just say Alla bout YOU and RUDE MUCH? Oh well I was PW'd, while I didn't do it I just shut up and allowed myself to play second fiddle to the guy she obviously really wanted) 

While being awesome at oral she also had a few rules that lean toward abuse reactions imo. I could never be over her in any way. Not standing, or sitting. Not even 69 with her on top. It had to be me on back and her down between legs. Only one time was it OK for me to be standing. (how she was most comfortable, she knew I loved the giving and receiving of 69 yet would never ever try it with me. Once married the bj to completion was never again attempted unless she thought all the sudden I would pop in 60 seconds - was no reason to, she'd shown how talented she was) 

I mentioned that before last April May she had never had an orgasm before while awake. This was shortly before my discovering the EAs. While she did share her new found love for the showerhead she refused to tell me how things with it were now different than the had been when trying the shower head in the past. I imagine it is to protect my feelings and it either involves one or more for the OGs or her extreme lust/crush on Rupert Grint (Ron Weasley from the Harry Potter movies) I have the joy of her having spent hundred of hours doing charcoal portraits of him and the portraits still in the home (anybody want to buy a very good charcoal portrait of Rupert Grint some as him, some as Ron Weasley. Hell I hope the movie Cherrybomb NEVER makes it to the United states! end of rant....maybe...yes, I'm better now. Oh forget it..more rant.... How many charcoal portraits of me do you are? Yup, nada. When I once brought this up (maybe 8 months ago) she said "I wanted to do this one of you and our other son (she did one of her with another son) but you said you didn't like yourself in it." I said I must've been wired at the time I like it. She said "Great I'll do it" several others have been done in the mean time, the one with me has never been mentioned again. OK, now REALLY, back to subject at hand.

So while one of the excuses during our marriage was "we can't do anything while the kids are up/around/whatever" (this excuse is in effect again as of 2010 btw) now she is in the bathroom nearly every day for an hour or two (she can get there, but is still didn't come easily). You maybe thinking I'm exaggerating but I'd swear to a minimum of 7 to 10 hours a week. Even then she did not always have her orgasm. She would often ejaculate many times, but not get over the hump as she'd calls it. This would frustrate her greatly.

So she's got the hornies now, that had to be great for me right? Well, yes and... no. You see if she had an orgasm she'd call for me and want be to bang her silly. Well yeah, that was good.

A typical scenario might go like this though. I start kissing her neck, she get amorous and tells me she's going up to the bathroom, "she'll call". guess what? If she didn't orgasm, she is frustrated and wants zero to do with me.


Or we go to bed together and I give her oral until she squirts a bunch (that thrills me to no end btw) and she take off to the shower head, it was exciting to watch her but if I tried to kiss or anything she'd be irritated. She was eyes closed in her own world, I wasn't invited. No I would not be touched, not in any way shape or form... well not by her anyway.

Other times while orally taking the to many ejacs she would say she's done...poof. out of bed, off to clean up and me well, not as much as touched again unless you count her touching my hair during.

And yes, sometimes she would take me inside her.

The last time we were together prior to the September crash mentioned earlier I had taken her out to a winery and had a great time, drinking wine, sitting in the grass eating grapes and crackers and cheese and talking and laughing with each other I took her to a hotel on surprise, I'd arranged a sitter for the whole night. Earlier in the day I'd gone out and purchased maybe 10 white candles, a dozen roses and another bunch of mixed flowers. I'd come to the hotel, arranged snipped an pre-lit candles to make sure they would light and burn good. And gotten the flowers into water to make sure they stayed nice. I took her up to the room and made her wait outside for a moment while i placed flowers about and lit candles. We came in and she was thrilled and excited, all smiles. This turned to disappointment as she noticed the shower was a regular shower head and not one with a hose. She tied her best while I waited in bed to get the faucet or shower to cooperate with her. In the end she came to bed and offered deadfish sex. I didn't cum, neither did she, went to sleep. The next day while I was told thank you I was also told "Next time send the kids hear so she could be at home with her showerhead" (and dildo)

On Halloween we came home very amorous and i got the you wait while I do the shower thing again. It was unsuccessful for her, i was again told too bad for you. I was pissed but said nothing that night. I did however for the first time confront her with how this makes me feel. She was not happy and went inot the I'm jealous and how I don't get how this is for her and that I've been having orgasms for years and this is for her like a little boy with his Victoria's Secret catalog.

I will end with my birthday from last year as all sex pretty much ended a couple weeks before it. EVERY year for holidays (birthday, Christmas, Father's Day) when she would ask what I wanted, I'd tell her that I wanted to be with her (sex) In the last nearly 10 years I got my wish once... in 2008, on my birthday. So I was really hopefull for my 2009 birthday. So in the morning she tells me (again) that she is going up to the shower and she will call for me. About 45 minutes later she calls. I get to come in and watch her and play with myself. I think she have maybe actually touched my leg once and unlike the other times here and there she would open her eyes and look at me. Now in hopes that maybe on my birthday I would get touched I played but tried not to ejac. after about 45 more minutes I was quite RAW and not only that I had to go and pick up one of my sons, I knew I was probably already late at that point. Also I figured this was just another of a long steak of she is not going to get there and I'm out of luck. I stopped, gave her a kiss, told her to keep going but I have to go and stepped out of the tub and left the bathroom. I heard her call my name as I left but ... I needed to go and was pretty hurt...again. As I wsa leaving to go get my son she had already got out of the bathroom and told me to come to her. She told me she was trying to share an orgasm with me and that she'd wanted me to be inside her when she reached it (as I'd never been in the bathroom when she had). I apologized for messing up her plans yet told her how could I really have been expected to other assume other than what had always been?

Now while she does still have her "shower time" I do not beleive it is as frequent and it is never while I'm around.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Third possibility
This ones is quick so don't be too amazed.

She really is just not into me at all.

Supported by it is relatively likely that her only "actively" participating times with me in the last years were do to her being "inspired" by someone else.

I'm adding this nearly a day later. There a couple of things that even if this IS really THE REASON for her with regards to me, that it is most likely not the only reason for her.

I remembered last night two relative premarital incidents. One was meeting and ex-bf of hers and him making a comment to the effect of "good luck with sex with her" and my now wife responding "shut up this one's a keeper" to him. Also can remember at one time her telling me had a low sex drive. Shrugged it off as her sex drive seemed ample to me at the time.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MEM 
An interesting post and much to think about. I suppose the big difference is that you WERE REALLY going to leave her for that. I am not at the point where I would do that and do not pretend or give ital threats.

But none the less i will read it again and make certain it is properly digested. Thank you!


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> Third possibility
> This ones is quick so don't be too amazed.
> 
> She really is just not into me at all.


While I don't know the full full story I've read quite a lot now and notwithstanding there's a whole bunch of loyalty in what you say and there's always two sides, blah blah, ...

I'm really sad for you .. for you both, but mostly for you.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi OMG,
I’ve just read the complete post. Why aren’t you focusing on the EAs? My understanding with those things is that you will not get anywhere with your wife while they’re going on. Not only that but she is also having orgasms with the men she knows. Ok, it’s “over the internet” and not in a bedroom, but she is being both emotionally and physically intimate with them. It’s no wonder you don’t get any of those things, she’s exhausting herself giving them to other men. Neither her mind or her body is with you, they are both with other men. And there you are, providing her with financial things that enable her abusive behavior to continue.

For what it’s worth I reckon you’re being way too tolerant, you’re way over the top with tolerance. I was the same, way too tolerant, patient and understanding, I had way too much empathy and always looked to myself to be the one to change. 

First time ever I told my wife what I would no longer tolerate, what my emotional barriers were to stop any further emotional abuse she more or less instantly "mentally checked out" of the relationship. Of course, not before showing zero respect for my emotional barriers.

Bob

Edited to add …
I don’t know if I’m correct with this but you seem to be giving your wife “unconditional love”. That sort of love is usually reserved for our children and I think is mostly given by mothers. But love without barriers means they can do anything and get away with it. But unconditional love for our partner? I did that, I gave my wife unconditional love. I didn’t have any emotional barriers which lead to a lot of abuse of who I am and what I stand for.

If you see sense in this then maybe you can learn from my experience. In my case the abuse just got too much for me and I flipped. It took a very long time and a lot of abuse but I just flipped. That’s the time I told my wife what my emotional barriers are as I needed to protect myself emotionally. I didn’t do it right, I didn’t give her time to digest and think about “the change in me”, I just put the barriers up and she was off. Heartbreaking for both of us.

What I should have done is given myself more time to think about my barriers and how to introduce them to my wife. What I’ve come to recognise is that the introduction of emotional barriers very strongly indicates a huge change in the person and therefore a huge change in the relationship. I didn’t give myself or my wife time to digest that change.

For me emotional barriers were a new thing even after being 40 years with my wife. Since then I’ve done a lot of reading about emotional barriers. The ones I like best is where they are “negotiated” between the partners.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

madimoff

Don't feel sad, get happy! Thank you for your empathy though. Truly I thin we are both happier now than we've been in a long time. I just really want to see it get even better and I believe it can. At least I believe all reasonable efforts and time have not yet been exhausted.

Yesterday was a bit depressing for me because I was listing so much that was/is not good. I imagine reading it felt that way too. Remember though, that things between us now are actually pretty happy. I look forward to going home and seeing her, talking with her, snuggling with her and believe she feels the same way with me!

It's funny to hear "mostly me" though...as a woman I figured (if you read my letter) that I'd have moved to dirt status with most ladies here.

I can't say I don't at times have pity parties for me but I think really I've had a pretty charmed life and that in the grand scheme of things it is my wife that has been short suited.

I guess I really took a bad turn with my writing and apologize for the impression it has left. I really feel lucky for the turn my life has taken in the past year - no not 100% lucky, in some areas i obviously ain't gettin' lucky at all  - but overall, yeah, my life is definitely going in a much better direction.


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

I for one was just digesting and trying to temper (ha) my response  

It sounds like you feel that you have both made a good amount of progress and that’s a good thing. You know the distance you’ve traveled better than anyone else.

Once again the abuse stands out as well as the fact that she more or less refuses to get help in that area. To me it is clearly impacting the way she relates to others. 

I also have to agree with MEM on a couple counts. She may not be doing these things on purpose, consciously, but where do her complaints end? All of your posts after the response to mine illustrate an extreme control issue on her end. Frankly, she probably focused on your controlling behavior because she herself is soo controlling. imo she needs to get into individual therapy (or maybe sex therapy for both of you) as well and finally deal with this issue. If you are meeting her needs it is only fair that she meet yours. You cannot bend this statement. As long as hers are the only needs getting met, you are the only one in this marriage. 

On the one hand we have “she knows she did things wrong” but on the other it’s “anything she did out of line was due to me causing it.”

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. You cannot MAKE her act in any way whatsoever. She could have talked to you about the problems but instead turned to other men. Until she accepts responsibility for her actions and ends the EAs I don’t think anything you do is going to have a lasting impact. You might very well be keeping things happy and livable until she decides she’s ready to move on. I understand that you want to put everything into it and that is honorable. However, just as she is closing herself off from you emotionally I think you’re closing yourself off from the impact of the EAs. 

I’m sorry that you lost your counselor, it has to be hard to start all over again. I get that the counselor saw that starting with you was the right choice, but when to begin dealing with the rest? Our counselor sort of attacked all of the areas in general and then took time to address each specifically. I know they’re all different and you can only do so much at once but without looking at the big picture you’re doing yourself a disservice.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

To be honest I think the EAs were relatively borderline in the first place. Not sure if that says it really either. She definitely confided in them more that me and was sexually flirting. If there she were not married I think she would have been dating them or at least trying them out.

I did not meant to imply she was having orgasms with them but rather that she was talking about her shower time results with them after the fact - yes I would be stupid not to see that they well could have been the subject of her shower time fantasies along with Rupert Grint (a known) and others actors, musicians etc...who knows maybe she was even on her phone with them at the time and sharing in that manner...don't know. I believe that has stopped, whatever extent it was.

At any rate while she still has a huge crush on Rupert (btw - I realize girls crushes on hollywood peops should not bug me and reality has never to the extent of this one who she accredits "The most intense experience I have ever had in my life" in relation to- well that and him being just another that push that I play second fiddle to with her) I believe it has gone down and am pretty sure she has greatly reduced contact and the type of contact with the local guy. While we both know her contact with the other forum mod has not ceased nor has the sexual flirting ceased, I do believe it has greatly dropped as well.

Yes, I agree the EAs need to be ended completely...but I believe that is better approached as a component of counseling in our case as with just the two of us it gets turned on me being jealous and controlling and I don't want her to have any friends. Yes I know ...typical. And yet just because chickens "typically" cross the street doesn't mean that a ducks do not sometimes cross the street as well.

Both counselors have asked us to discuss and come up with a acceptable behaviors with members of the opposite sex kind of thing on our own. She doesn't want to on our own but may be willing with the counselor in attendance. Yet to my surprise both have treated this more like a side item that needs to be addressed relative to me having a jealousy issue (Just my take...who knows). To be fair to the both of them, the original was concentrating on communication and putting out some fires and the new one has really just got started with us.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I've given up . Our own path is the way to tread.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I've given up . Our own path is the way to tread.


Please don't think I am not listening or unappreciative. I guess I believe it is still worth effort and the line in the sand may not yet be needed. fwiw - I have asked our joint counselor to look at this thread.

I know for a fact that what quacks like a duck, smells like a duck etc etc may not be a duck let me give you a real example. 

On morning (some time in late 2008 I think) my wife moves my jeans before I'm out of bed and a condom falls to the floor.

So lets add this up
-Condom in pants pocket
-Often works late (often arriving home at 6, 7 or 8, sometimes even later like 9 or on extreme occasions 10 instead of the possible 5:30 or so)
- Wife has not been sexually attentive since practically premarital (I'm sure in her head it wasn't that long ago but...)

So quacks like a duck,, etc etc right?

Reality is this

Jan 1st of 2008 my wife wakes and is surprisingly horny in the morning (I suspect from chatting OGs the night before but I was totally clueless back then) Very out of character she wants to be on top. She is loving it and a second condom was required...

So at the time the OG thing was not even a consideration for me, I was hoping maybe she was deciding to start the year off in a new direction with me. Well...if you look at number ans figure I counted this as 2, you know that wasn't the case. 

But now I actually had kind of a thing about masturbating with condoms due to the excitement she gave me that one morning. Heck they even made for easy cleanup and ... I used to use them and watch porn after everyone was in bed. 

At any rate one morning she is moving my pants and a condom falls out on the floor. (I had it ready but did not use it the night before).

She id question me immediately and I answered her immediately. Even told her if she looked in the trash cans she would find other wrappers. She did not look in the trash can but went on line and told her OGs who of course said I was a lying sack of ****. (Recently she told me she didn't look in the trash can becasue she "trusted me" OK so then why ask your OGs their opinions? - but I digress)

Quite frankly I'm pretty certain if she had come on this board and told just her "facts" many of you on here would have told her the same thing... _*FOR CERTAIN, there IS no other possibility, your husband without a doubt is having a sexual affair, *_what a load of BS he fed you. And you, like the OGs would be 100% wrong.

I will accept your forewarning, despite my diatribe I really DO appreciate it, I just ask that you are not offended if I do not appear to be listening. I am :scratchhead:


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

Online bf/gf does not sound borderline to me. Neither here nor there, let’s throw out the term EA and say that it’s merely inappropriate behavior. You have found out about it, she agreed to limit contact and stop engaging in the activities you find to be inappropriate. Why go private (twitter and no more public posts on the forum) if she weren’t continuing this behavior to some extent? It might not be a duck but what else then? You previously mentioned that she may think if you don’t see it, it can’t hurt you. Trouble is that the behavior is harmful regardless of whether or not you see it. It’s harmful because she’s connecting with the OG(s) which is affecting her ability to connect with you, the one she married. 

It’s very encouraging that the counselors started addressing boundaries with the opposite sex and I hope you make that conversation happen in your sessions. What I’m getting at in all of this is if she can disconnect from these other men and, more importantly, the attention they give her she might be able to connect (ignoring the abuse scenario where she is unable to do so) with and let you fulfill those needs thus giving the intimacy you both desire.

I get that you may not feel it’s time to draw a line in the sand and I might agree that it’s not until you address all issues in counseling but I think that once the boundaries are formed they need to be hard and fast boundaries, no more gray area.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

WantsHappiness

I agree with you 100%.

I believe in her mind her excuse for going "underground" is that I had no business reading her posts on the forum or Twitter or her Myspace in the first place. I invaded her privacy by doing this.

She has called me a controlling private eye. Mind you, yes, I've did some PI work in the reacent past... but she had been on this forum since 2005 and I didn't check out her posts until my son brought something to my attention in our own home. Didn't even know she had a MySpace page at that point let alone two of them. Didn't know she had a secret email acount...didn't know she had a secter cell phone. Yet I truly would be not surprised if in her mind I am sitll a privacy invading controll freak...

No doubt the the boundary crossng and "OK behavior for her but not for me" things need addressed, counselling is still in progeress.

It is pretty clear that if she will not seek help in the sex realm tath it will probably never become better. Oddly enough, she complains we are like brother and sister not like bf/gf . The question is in 10 years I've not been important enough for her to be uncomfortable in order for this to be worked on despite her knowing and talking about it needing done for nearly the whole time. In fairness she can say she had been saying we needed to go to joint counsleing for nearly the same aount of time and I did not jump on that either...thought we could work it out on our own.

Also, I think there have been some very good suggestion about some things that make her uncomfortable ahppening a bit more often until they become more the "usual".

In the end though it will be comfortable to become more emotionally intimate to her without her taking a chance and opening up the walls abit. We are seperated by her castle walls the thickness of which is the closest we can get.

I will continue to try to fill her Emotional needs and be uplifteing and supportive despite some conjecture her. Not only is it the way I thihnk I should be and want to be but most likely the best way to help her feel safer.

Thank you everyone who has given of their time and hearts to read this novel,. And should anybody come up with any new thoughts, arguments whatever, feel free to add on. 


Best wishes to all


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

You seem loyal, patient, tolerant (to the point of some might say bizarre) & so on... I'm wondering questions which could already have been aired. For those of us following the novel & keen to offer thoughts but with failing memory (senior, blonde, in my case!) could you provide links or let us know other threads your story's appeared in? Sorry if this sounds cynical or sarky or something, it's absolutely not meant to be. To explain, I was wondering why you got married in the first place. Why you did, why she did. Then I thought I probably could find that somewhere, if I only knew where to look!


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> Susan
> Thanks for your support. I do believe she loves me as I said earlier. Don't know if she will ever, be in love with me. I think it should be obvious I haven't yet given up, but at the same time, I'm a realist and know other guys get her motor running and I don't. I also now have my self esteem back that I will not be happy with that forever. Lets face it...it will be likely be at least a few years at this point until we can recover from our store endeavor and it is turned around or she can find some other sort of extremely low stress job (she can't handle typical work pressures - even something like heading up the jewelry boat at Target is too much) that pays well - rather an oxymoron I know
> 
> Yes, had been told about Fireproof quite some time ago and have been waiting for a good time to watch it. trick is this. If I tell her what it is, then I doubt she will want to watch it, if I just rent it for us to watch I could then be easily labeled as controlling in her mind, and therefore take another step backwards as she is determined to see me return to the me that once was. Please note, I rent movies for us all the time, she rarely does. not that she doesn't want to watch them, just she just doesn't do it. The difference here would be that instead of me hoping to have entertainment it would be like a "message" thing.


Yes, I understand perfectly. But it's not for her to watch. It is for you. But I see you wouldn't be able to with her around, so just get the book that the movie is all about. The movie only introduces the principles in the book, but the book is the real deal.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The thing that is broken here is that you have been in a sexually impaired state from 1 year before your reception. First there was some religious reason for the 6 months prior to the ceremony and then some other unexplained reason for the next 6 months for your reception. And then technically sexless in frequency since then. THAT would make a normal man very tense and feel very unloved. 

Why is it that the lions share of "fixing" the marriage is laying on you when she seems to have no desire to be honest with you about why your marriage is sexless. 

I am NOT saying she should force herself to have sex with you. I AM saying she is obligated to honestly tell you WHY this marriage has been a sexual trainwreck from the moment you fully committed to her. 

My guess is - the nicer/kinder/more committed you are, the more she will like you as a friend and the less desire she will feel for you. I think your ONLY hope of getting some honest answers and maybe creating some sparks is to define some boundaries along the lines of: I am glad we are making progress - soon - within 3 months we need to directly address the fact that this marriage has been sexless from the year before our engagement. Maybe you simply do not, and never really did find me attractive. If so, you need to tell me. What you cannot do is continue to construct an ever changing list of things I MUST do before you will discuss our non-sex life. 

But - this all comes down to priorities. If you are comfortable meeting ALL her emotional, physical and financial needs and having her permanently ignore your sexual needs that is your choice. Not a situation I would tolerate for a short time - much less a decade - or a lifetime. 

If she really is not attracted - she needs to tell you AND she needs to let you find playmates outside your marriage. 

The marital commitment of sexual fidelity is directly linked to an equally great responsibility on the partners to please each other sexually. You cannot in good faith ignore your sexual responsibilities to your spouse and simultaneously demand fidelity from them. 



OneMarriedGuy said:


> WantsHappiness
> 
> I agree with you 100%.
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

No probs OMG. Emotional barriers are a bit like “house rules”. “No Smoking”, “No Drugs”, “No Stealing” that sort of thing. There are many rules for driving and so many other things but some of us don’t have rules for ourselves, emotional barriers. Without them we are at the mercy of others’ abusive behaviour.

People who’ve been abused often become abusers themselves and the only person who can change that is the abused. My wife just brought the emotionally abusive behaviour she’d learnt as a child into our marriage. It was a part of who she was at her very core, not an attitude but a trait. And the only person who can change a trait is the person who has it. To change a trait there has to be a massive need to change, there has to be a reason to change. 

I’m a “big strong man” physically, it took a hell of a lot for me to accept that I was being emotionally abused. Maybe you are the same, maybe you cannot, as yet, accept that you are being emotionally abused. Our emotionally barriers are in a way how we get to know ourselves better. Unfortunately we get to know ourselves after we’ve been abused by declaring what behaviour we will no longer tolerate. “I will not tolerate lies” for example. Says a lot about ourselves that. “I need complete authenticity and fidelity in my marriage, without it I’m finished with our relationship” etc.

To understand how difficult it is to change a trait, all you need do is take a look at yourself. You’ve analysed yourself, discovered what you’d like to change and you’re going ahead with it. Not easy is it! Your wife doesn’t have a reason to change. Why? Because her life is working for her right now, she is getting what she wants out of her life, out of being alive, living.

It is easy for me to talk. I was in a somewhat similar situation to you, different reasons but it was “in my face”. At the time our two sons were under ten years old so I got through it. It’s massively different now both sons are adults, no mortgage or debt that type of thing so it’s “easy for me to talk”.

Looking back though I really wish I’d known about emotional barriers and put them up a long time ago, would have saved a lot of heartache and so much else.

Here’s a thought for you. Your wife could well be bringing up things from the past, her “resentment”, to attack you and keep you on the defensive. While you are on the defensive you are looking at your behaviour and it takes the focus off of hers. You are giving so much and getting very little back.

Here’s a question for you. Have you considered “failure” as an option? Failure in that you are never going to get what you need from your wife. If you haven’t maybe it’ll be a good thing to spend some time thinking on. What happens if you never get what you need let alone want? Do you stay? If you do what does your life look like in the future? If you leave, what does your life look like in the future?

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> WantsHappiness
> She has called me a controlling private eye. Mind you, yes, I've did some PI work in the reacent past... but she had been on this forum since 2005 and I didn't check out her posts until my son brought something to my attention in our own home. Didn't even know she had a MySpace page at that point let alone two of them. Didn't know she had a secret email acount...didn't know she had a secter cell phone. Yet I truly would be not surprised if in her mind I am sitll a privacy invading controll freak...


I was watching a film. The husband suspected his wife was having an affair so he put a video recorder in the bedroom. Sure enough it’s all captured on tape. When his wife saw the tape she said something like “How dare you put a video recorder in the bedroom and invade my privacy!”. My jaw dropped, even more so when the husband apologised and went on the defensive.

But think about it. The way the wife handled the situation was very clever because it totally took the focus off of her adulterous behaviour. She saw nothing wrong in her behaviour, there was no guilt, no remorse and no apology. She did though see wrong in her husband’s behaviour and classified his behaviour as worse than hers. Crazy making.

Instead of changing her behaviour, your wife very cleverly has you on the defensive.

Bob


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> I've not been important enough for her to be uncomfortable in order for this to be worked on


You deserve to be. I hope that in continuing to work through this you both can get to that place in your marriage


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Making alist of things that are wrong nad compiling them into a very short paragraphe and read in all a bunch makes things seem much worse than they currently are.

For instance, I do fully beleive I am the number one guy in her life at this point, not really totaly on blind faith, just by the way she has been treating me on the whole. Yes there are things to refute it as well but even they may be more of a result of desiring strongly to avoid conflict (don't telling the OG agin to END the sex talk and inuendoes but simply ask him not to post them where I could see them and be offended/hurt/etc by them). I'm not saying this is OK with me, I'm not saying it will not need to be addressed, just saying 10 years of poor communication between us, really bad habits and poor assumptions of the other's intentions has left quite a bundle of garbage and poor habits that need worked through.

WE have made HUGE strides- Rome cannot be rebuilt in a day yet I agree with many of you. That these things do need handle prior to Rome being able to sparkle again. otoh if you are constantly in a state of repaitng Rome you take the chance of being sick of working on your renovation project so a nice balance of just realxing and enjoying the Rome in it's much repaired state without paying attention to the columns that you each knocked down and need fixed is a good thing. 

I am much more prepared to go at problems more often, but she shutsdown, kind phases out...escapes in her head when "too much" hits her at once. Yes, THIS IS REAL not just an avoidance trick. So we need to keep maybe pace with a bit more time in between getting blisters on our hands from working than possible some other coules may.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

madimoff

You may catch glimpse of things in other threads but really I've said about as much about me/us here as anywhere.

I got married becasue I was thrilled with her! She was very sweet to me, understanding and supportive. I felt she was interested in what I did, what I thought. Mentally and physically an equal for me. She'd kick my butt on roller blades! And while she may sometime use the "silly blonde" act , she is very wise. She is gorgeous. While engaged she was sexually exciting and interested in being with and pleasing me. Flirty, frisky, fun towards me. She liked to bicycle, roller blade, play pool, darts. She was great with my kids (from previous marriage) and helped me to relate to them better. Heck she even likes action moves better thatn chick flicks 
She is a chick that likes tools, she is probaly a better handyman than many men. She is artistic, crafty, a bit ecclectic. I'm sure there are others.

As for her, guess you'd have to ask her. As mentined earlier her when asked in counseling she said she didn't beleive she was ever in love with me and thought she did it because she felt my kids needed a mom.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Susan....
Ahhhhh...for me  I guess I thought it was a "give couples hope to survive" movie and thus for "us".

just aps here. Wehn I read that section it sounded a bit to me like I was saying she didn't like to watch movies with me...she does, jsuts doesn't like to get the too much. Still think being as this one is a "hear this message" type of movie that it would put her in a very large "don't try shoving stuff down my throat" mode.

Maybe I'll get it for me to watch and she may become interested. Thanks


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MeM
Whew... I was starting to think I was totally abnormal "THAT would make a normal man very tense and feel very unloved." But yup this would fit me 

I don't beleive for her it is a matter of being honest or not. I think it is "I don't want to, it's my body, I can give it to whoever I want, whenever I want, for whatever reason I want and can deny it just the same". This is somewhat tainted by me being sntoty about the fact that I know the guys premarital certainly did not need to show commitment, love, allign all the planets and stars etc for her.

Her reasons are just that, reasons. Now while I'd guess you are ready to say EXACTLY, I'm going to add this in. If you read my take on her sexual issues you saw three possiblities. In reality it could easily be any combination of as well. 

I don't think she really knows the answer. While at the same time feeling frustrated, hurt etc..... I also feel REALLY bad for her yeah a bit schitzo . She has said this before and I believe her. She has said she feels "BROKEN". and not just once either. She has said it in front of each of the counsleors as well.

As per "The marital commitment of sexual fidelity is directly linked to an equally great responsibility on the partners to please each other sexually. You cannot in good faith ignore your sexual responsibilities to your spouse and simultaneously demand fidelity from them." While I agree with this statement and feel it would be a wise thing for each person to keep that commitement and reponsibilty in mind towards their partner it at the same time sounds like the "excuse" one would use to justify an affair if looked at by being the lacking party.

I have managed so far not to do have an affair, can't say it has been easy all the time, but I've always stayed commited to her.. The playmates thing will never happen.

I agree, the sex talk will need to happen, she will need to decide if it is worth it to her to at least try to get help.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Bob (AFEH)
I know it is hard to convey and let everyone know everything about what is going on. Whle I still think she does many things that would not fall into her "Golden Rule" mix, but also she has heard and made many changes as well as far as boundaries go.

Yes, there are deinately ares that still need discussed/comprimesd/whatever but to be fair, she has come a LONG way there, so it is not like I am doing everything and her nothing.

" Here’s a thought for you. Your wife could well be bringing up things from the past, her “resentment”, to attack you and keep you on the defensive. While you are on the defensive you are looking at your behaviour and it takes the focus off of hers. You are giving so much and getting very little back." I think we all have a bit of fight back with "you did this" when confronted. While this certainly IS happening I do not beleive it is a calculated endeavor.

Yes, I have. As I became feeling better about myself in counselling and began to understand how I'd let myself become the person I'd become that I no longer want to be I eventually came to other realizations therafter. I can push forward and treat her like I beleive she should be treated for only so long if I do not receive decent treatment in return from her. I can try to make new good habits replace old bad ones, but if she cannot at some point make the same effort to speak my love languages and treat me with love and respect and interest, then one of two things will happen. 

If my resolve fails to keep up my good habits while giving her time to come around (which she is certainly making progress btw) I will then let again let the things she is doing to me hurt change my treatment of her and we will fail. I realize if we are to get above this I will have to be the strong one and keep faith while she climbs the hill.

While I do not want us to seperate, I do see it as a possibility. I see the possibiliity that if she really is just not into me that it would be unfair of me to try to make guilt her into staying, not if I really do love her anyway. If I really do love her, I will want her to be happy evev if it means without me. It is ahrd thing to come to grips with as while I do really want her to be happy, I certainly hope it can be with me  My working towards helping her to become self sufficient financially and teh store is toward a dual means. If together it would be a great help, if not if will be a great help to her.

A yeah and that reaponse type, from what I've read herer is pretty much the text book "you caught me in an affair" thing. I beleive it may almost be required. Bizzarre to look at from the outside. I thin it is becasue somebody normally happy in a realtionship and with themselves does not just go out and start one. I think many that have them would have sworn prior to haveing them that THEY never would be like THOSE people. They sneak up on them, and by hte time they realize it (if they really ever do in the csae of EA) they don't want to give up their drug and so have rationalized how they got there and how it is totally theri partners fault and what they are dong is really OK. well in THEIR case at least.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

WantsHappiness said:


> You deserve to be. I hope that in continuing to work through this you both can get to that place in your marriage


Thank you WantsHappiness(forAll) 

I've good news. So last night we had a bit of a tif over very little to do at all. Prior to bed I asked her if she wanted to dicuss it (we have been doing pretty good at this) and we did. Got past the little tif (more a phrase meaning different to the receiver that to the giver - communication to the rescue!)

Afterwards, as I said I done everynow and then over the months and was gong to make a point of doing more often, I asked her how I'd been doing meeting her needs. She said she did not want to go into it at that time (it was really late and she did look beat) but would like to discuss it sometime and "to be fair she would ask the same back to me". THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!!! Yes, since she never did I've come out and approached some things with her, but she has NEVER ONCE shown a concern for it on her own in the past. Well with her, saying is one thing and doing yet another (my work video, sex promises, sex therapy are some listed in the curent post/novel) but at least it shows progress! I was pretty excited and told her so!

Because of other commitments I certain these conversations will not happen today but I will at least bring my side of it up again maybe Monday or Tuesday.

ALSO she told me today she was not planning on going into her store on Father's Day and that she had an idea of something we might do together with the kids! It may seem odd that I'm this excited but it but after batting a big zero from her on Valentine's Day this year I really was not quite sure what to expect.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your mindset will have to be different to approach this properly. See - this is about boundaries. My boundary is - I am not designed for celibacy. So if she had said - before marriage - hey we aren't going to have much/any sex but of course I fully expect you to keep your vows and stay faithful. My response would have been - you aren't asking me to commit to marriage you are asking me to agree to be celibate. No deal. 

IMO you simply have not asserted your right to have a physical relationship. And I DON'T mean you have the "right" to have one with her. I mean you have the right to have one. If she wants it to be with her fine. If not. OK. 

I really think a lot of her treating you this badly - yes this badly - is due to you allowing it. 

Ultimately to be happy - there needs to be balance. 

And the BEST way to prevent balance is to over react and get really excited when she gives you even a crumb. And frankly that seems to be what is happening. How about just calmly saying "good" and smiling when she does what you have asked. Do NOT act like it is a great accomplishment when she takes a tiny step in your direction or she is going to think you have a very low expectation of her contribution. 





OneMarriedGuy said:


> MeM
> Whew... I was starting to think I was totally abnormal "THAT would make a normal man very tense and feel very unloved." But yup this would fit me
> 
> I don't beleive for her it is a matter of being honest or not. I think it is "I don't want to, it's my body, I can give it to whoever I want, whenever I want, for whatever reason I want and can deny it just the same". This is somewhat tainted by me being sntoty about the fact that I know the guys premarital certainly did not need to show commitment, love, allign all the planets and stars etc for her.
> ...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Your mindset will have to be different to approach this properly. See - this is about boundaries. My boundary is - I am not designed for celibacy. So if she had said - before marriage - hey we aren't going to have much/any sex but of course I fully expect you to keep your vows and stay faithful. My response would have been - you aren't asking me to commit to marriage you are asking me to agree to be celibate. No deal.
> 
> IMO you simply have not asserted your right to have a physical relationship. And I DON'T mean you have the "right" to have one with her. I mean you have the right to have one. If she wants it to be with her fine. If not. OK.
> 
> I really think a lot of her treating you this badly - yes this badly - is due to you allowing it.


All men in your position should read this. I think MEM and I are of one mind on this subject.



OneMarriedGuy said:


> Whew... I was starting to think I was totally abnormal "THAT would make a normal man very tense and feel very unloved."But yup this would fit me


You come across as not being all THAT bothered. I just wonder, if you weren't on antidepressants if you'd have more edge on this subject. If I wasn't getting any sex *for a whole year*, I'd be so wound up, so tense, so on EDGE, that I'd use my edge to make a solution appear: either from within my marriage or from without.

A whole year - have you any idea how much of an edge that would give me? I would not go on antidepressants to ease the pain. I would use the pain to motivate me. Pain is the signal that something is wrong. Half the world does not understand this. they think the pain is someone else's fault and needs to be treated with some external "fix", instead of an internal solution - I'm in pain, so I need to work on myself.

Again, to spell out what MEM said in different words:

*When we agree to "forsake all others" in a marriage ceremony, that means that we expect to get sex on a f***ing plate, with a smile! Otherwise, why would anyone sign such a contract? Why? Who?*

If one partner deprives the other of sex, it's basically being unfaithful. If you can't see that now, wake up so that you can.

As an exercise, roll back the clock to your wedding day... imagine your lawyer gives you a list detailing how your wife is behaving *now*. would you sign, or walk, no, run away?

My view is that marriage involves a constant daily hour by hour minute by minute re-commitment. By sticking around, you have condoned your wife's behaviour hour by hour minute by minute. And when your own body/mind tried to tell you you were a fool for being easily walked all over, you just turned to a drug to push the signal away. It was a message you did not want to hear.

In your wife's defence, you were not a good husband in the beginning. You were insensitive. That lack of sensitivity cut both ways. It made your wife resent you, it also prevented you from seeing how bad her behaviour was. You are clearly awakening now, and yes it hurts sometimes.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

OMG,
Big cheers to you!!
You're doing so well, and I know how challenging it is to stay so focused and vigilant in our day to day life. Staying centered enough so that we act and not react is much easier said than done. While I know all these in my head, it's very tempting and easy to fall back to my ego conditioning where I want to get even and limit my potential to love unconditionally. I can clearly see why you're doing what you're doing here. 

Here's what went through my head today. My H sent me an email yesterday with a link to a gardening site (his hobby is to garden/farm) as a suggestion for father's day gifts. While I had been wondering what I wanted to do for my H on father's day, my immediate reaction was to remember the unpleasant things that happened this past mother's day. We had planned to go to a beach for a w/e getaway, but we ended up getting into a big fight and I called it off. Needless to say, the mother's day was a very unpleasant day for me, and all I got was a card. Even though I was already thinking about nice things I wanted to do for him, I was caught in my ego thoughts wondering why he should get anything nice for father's day when I had a terrible mother's day. I knew that that's how the downward spiral begins, and it took a lot of efforts to feel ok about really wanting to do nice things for him. 

I can sense your calmness and peace, and I'm certain you don't feel that way all the time. Otherwise, you would already have be enlightened . These posts remind me of Yoda's "power vs. force" teaching. I for one applaud you for taking the path of power rather than force.

I am certain that if and when you need to make a tough decision, you'll be making a loving decision for everyone involved, especially to yourself. I love what you're doing with these posts, and they are inspirational and good reminders to me (and entertaining).


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi OMG,
If I were you I’d be feeling a little punch drunk by now with the replies you’re getting . But I wish this sort of support was available while I was going through my stuff, I find it so interesting and enlightening to hear other’s viewpoints and opinions.

My viewpoint is I’m afraid tainted with cynicism. I came to realise my wife was having an EA for an exceptionally long time and I didn’t appreciate at all the dramatic impact it had on our marriage. Looking back I can see that all my efforts were in vain, useless, because of the EA. The person my wife was having the EA with was trying to split us up. Over time they became soul mates, my marriage efforts simply didn’t have a chance.

My wife was exceptionally good at keeping me on a string and why would she do that? I was the one paying all the bills, I was exceptionally good to her but she went outside of the marriage for the “emotional connection” bit.

That’s why I say to you until your wife’s EA is stopped you don’t stand a chance. And you stop the EA by no longer tolerating it, by putting up emotional boundaries/barriers.

Bob


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MEM and MT

While on many levels I agree with you either I am interpreting you as going too far with this or , in my mind you are just going too far with it. 

"If one partner deprives the other of sex, it's basically being unfaithful. If you can't see that now, wake up so that you can."

I am asuming you feel the same way about me depriving her of her emotional needs as well?

In that case the past nine years becomes a matter of which came first, the chicken or the egg. I've a funny feeling the kitty cat came first and while in "leave me be" mode scratched the puppy dogs nose a few to many times and the puppy began to growl. But this point it doesn't matter and I really have no idea, it is just a likely scenario.

These days it helps alot knowing about the kitty cat. It helps to know a kitty cat is the way it is sometimes and not to personalize it's actions.

At present though, while I agree something will need to be done due to my strong beleif in the possibilites of abuse waging heavily on her actions and psyche, I don't believe your answers are the best, at least at this point in time.

I beleive you may think I'm not hearing you and someday over a beer you may get to punch me in the arm full out and tell me I'm a big dummy...then again...MT may have some new possiblites for his theories that will be placed into the abuse category.

Makes me curious MT, did yo make it all the way through my three sex possibilites? I was rather surprised I did not see a reply from you directly related to those. If you didn't, I understand...they are long, well at least the first two are.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

questions
Thank you very much  glad they are a bit entertaining for you as I can easily see how they could be unbearably long. Argh, and this is my idea of a short version Lol

Yes the downward spiral is an easy thing to get into and hard to get out of - I mean when was the last time you ever saw something in the downwrd sprial of the toilet save itself? It ain't easy!
Just to give kudos to my lovely wife, she IS rooting for us and has helped me through this process a great deal, hopefully she feels I've done likewise and been ther for her.

Calm and peace...well not always  Matter of fact just writing some of the stuff for these threads has been rough for me. What I am trying to do to the best of my obviously tainted ability is to be fair to both sides. Personaly I think I'd love to see my wife post one of these from her pov. I' mean then everybody would be tearing for her and I would have to have an even deeper knowlege of what a jerk I'd been, but I think it would be such a help to see her thoughts, they are so very heard to get to.

Thanks for the kudos, to me it just seems the RIGHT way to be..reality is if I were the way MT and MEM suggest right now (as in today) it would probaly create a collapse of much of what has been worked for to this point. 

I hope you are right in my ability to stay strong and make choices in while holding my honor.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Bob,
I am actully feeling a bit amazed at how many people have given a huge amount of time to offer me advice. I can't imagine how long this would take for me to read from beginning to end at this point! Might be a good project for me to do a year from now, get the pictionary tier out and see how many times I have to flip it while reading.

Odd thing I've been learning through this is that we all only really see "things" from within our own bank of experiences. It is often very hard to see things from somebody else perspective that differs from you unless you also are given a good share of their history and background. Only hten might you see that in a sense where you seemed so right and them so wrong that now you may both seem so right and yet be at total odds with each other.

I appreaciate your helpfullness and regret your loss due to an EA. THE anonymity/fantasy of the internet can be a powerful draw it seems. While this and so forum so many things are so much more convenient and availble, it makes me abit sad that many people now cose to "communicate" by texting rather thatn by phone call or make friends on the internet rather than find out what thier neighbors name is. hmm me digressing again! no wonder thes post of mine are so long.

I say my wife is not the stringer type, but I imagine you would have told me the very same thing back then right? Jut like we would have each probaly said our wives would not be involved in an EA because they were not that type of person. Well I imagine neither of them 'wanted' to be that type of person...

I hear you about the EAs needing to end. I really think for the most part they have but also no she has not broken contact with them totally. THIS should having several of you going ... " Figures" ...

At one point at the counsellors she was broke down and crying and said she hadn't spoken to the local guy since I had said that it was obviuosly so important for her to see him that she would do it sneaky and was more imortant to her than my feelings since she knew I would not like it. She was crying and saying I don't want her to have any freinds and instead of me saying, "you can have your other who knows how many inforum freinds jsut not thse two that you've gone way too far with" I said something to the effect of "you can be freinds with them just not the way you were." ERROR, ERROR, DANGER WILL ROBINSON ...yeah I blew that one! In my defense though, I was not as knowledgable then a I am now on things, at that time I didn't even know htere was an EA designation as such.

Hopefully our counsellor does get a chance to read this and maybe use it to help us plot a course forward. Should be seeing her this coming Thursday.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

OMG,
While I have no doubts that you will be gentle and loving to yourself in this journey, I wanted to remind you a couple of books that other people have already mentioned in this thread that I also think would be helpful to you, especially understanding why your wife might be attracted/feel chemistry to certain people. It might help you to see that it really has nothing to do with you to take personally... 
Amazon.com: Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples (9780805068955):&#133;
Amazon.com: Keeping the Love You Find: A Personal Guide (9780671734206): Ph.D. Harville Hendrix: Books

It's been so long ago since I read the books, so my memory of the books might fail us miserably. If my memory serves me right, these books assert that we're imprinted to feel attraction toward people who would most likely to create our childhood trauma/hurt/pains. Because meeting the person, who most resembles the caregiver who fails you the most in your childhood, gives you the sense of "deja-vous" familiarity and stirs up deep subconscious emotions, we will feel awakened by to this person, i.e. chemistry. We then repeat the same hurt/pain that we have experienced as children until we consciously heal our childhood wounds by working with this partner. The first part is recognizing the pattern. Once we completely heal, we will then find ourselves feel attracted to "healthy" people. Please don't use my takeaway, and do your own research. 

As you well know well, your W will need to do her own soul searching to find acceptance and healing from her past. It's her own journey that only she can take...Meanwhile, I hope that you can support and encourage her journey, but at the same time, never let anyone, including your W, stop or stall your own progress and happiness. I'm sure that you know all these stuff very well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OMG,
I do not think you are a dummy. Let me give you a different boundary to ponder. This is the statute of limitations boundary. 

I consciously reject emotional fallout from any event that has happened more than (1 year - 2 years - do not go beyond 2 years unless you are a masochist) UNLESS there is a continuing pattern of similar behavior. 

Notice something about that statement. It is symmetrical which is true for all my boundaries. I am certain that if we go back more than two years my wife can come up with some fairly insensitive things I have done. Not on purpose - just the occasional painful hiccup that is a given between married couples. Guess what. I can do that just as easily. So what - if it is not part of a present day pattern it is passed the statute of limitations. 

That means - even if something triggers a bad memory that I have of an event where SHE really screwed up - if it is older than that - I just remind myself that she certainly has an equal if not greater list of things that I sure don't want to be repeatedly reamed for - so I usually just laugh and move on. But the rules of engagement are - just because that memory pops up does NOT mean I get to verbalize it. If I had a desperate need to talk about it I can call a friend and vent just as she could. 

As for emotional abuse. Try this one on for size. She simply is not sexually attracted to you. Never really was. Her saying she was never "in love" with you is code for "not sexually attracted" to you. And for every insensitive thing you have done to her - I am going to guess she has done something similar to you. Maybe it was a very dismissive and hurtful rejection of a sexual advance. Maybe something else. But you have a list too if you are honest with yourself. 

She describes what happened as her wanting to care for your kids. I believe that. I also believe she saw that as a means of potentially not having to work. Or at least not having to work very hard. So I think her statement is half true and fully self serving. 

You are in the normal mental state of the HD spouse with a partner who is not attracted to them. You are on a quest to achieve perfection/near perfection in the hope that she will then be attracted to you. Sadly it is just a quest - there is no destination. 

If YOUR bad behavior was killing her desire she would have specifically told you what you were doing wrong a decade ago. And you would have fixed it. She didn't do that - because there is no fix.

Sorry man - but when you look at what she has done and what she has directly told you - she simply is not attracted to you. Some women are able to "give" in bed simply because their desire to keep their spouse happy is so strong. Clearly your wife is not like that. 

And all of this is fine as long as you can accept that you are in a marriage that will always be sexless (using the technical definition of less than 10 times/year).





OneMarriedGuy said:


> MEM and MT
> 
> While on many levels I agree with you either I am interpreting you as going too far with this or , in my mind you are just going too far with it.
> 
> ...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I had to take a breather from this thread. Your guilt-trip hurts me.



OneMarriedGuy said:


> I beleive you may think I'm not hearing you and someday over a beer you may get to punch me in the arm full out and tell me I'm a big dummy...then again...MT may have some new possiblites for his theories that will be placed into the abuse category.


Dummy? It's not a word I would use, but you are being deliberately slow on the uptake. My guess is, that your anger and resentment is pushed so far down that you can't even begin to fully connect with it. I would not like to be in your wife's position if you ever do. *Tip from me - don't get violent - run out of the house where you can do no harm. Yes I'm serious.*




OneMarriedGuy said:


> Makes me curious MT, did yo make it all the way through my three sex possibilites? I was rather surprised I did not see a reply from you directly related to those. If you didn't, I understand...they are long, well at least the first two are.


Yes I read it all, and I just went over a few bits again, plus your answers to my questions. Your wife comes across as a twisted creature who is trying to destroy and undermine you. The sex stuff where it's all about her - culminating in your birthday sex experience just about sums up the whole thing.

It does not matter what her reasons are. This is not about her it's about you. You are either being dishonest with me, or more likely with yourself. You did not answer my original questions correctly. You are basically the doormat type.

You put up with not only a sexless marriage, but what counts as sexual and emotional abuse. You finance the whole she-bang, and then end up on here starting a thread asking about how to meet your wife's demands that you become more emotionally intimate with her.

Look at this again:


MEM11363 said:


> OMG,
> In most sexless marriages the person who doesn't want sex creates a list of "flaws" in their starved partner that they claim are the "cause" of the desire problem.


Her responses have pushed you into coming on here to find out how you can be more sensitive to her impossible needs. But she has set you up to fail. Simply because she has no intention of giving you anything but an impossible task. You could turn yourself inside out, upside down, and walk on water, and still she would be unmoved. 

If I understand correctly, you went on the pills just after the birthday incident? This implies to me that you were on the verge of putting 2 and 2 together, but preferred to have the signals muted by the drug. 

I really hope you can dig deep down and find the courage to be a man. Life has dealt you a difficult hand. You then made it worse by constantly turning a blind eye, so the situation just got worse and worse.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hey OMG,
You sound very much like me. Be the first to accept the blame, look inside to change, constantly trying and trying and still not getting what you need. I write this as a precursor to MT’s warning …

“Dummy? It's not a word I would use, but you are being deliberately slow on the uptake. My guess is, that your anger and resentment is pushed so far down that you can't even begin to fully connect with it. I would not like to be in your wife's position if you ever do. Tip from me - don't get violent - run out of the house where you can do no harm. Yes I'm serious”.

It’s taken me 6 months to work through so much anger and resentment that’s it’s unbelievable. I had so much anger and strong dislike for my wife that I knew she was in serious physical danger from me. I’m not overly passive but I’m normally calm, I normally go even calmer in a crises. This time I didn’t, something blew and I even nearly asked my eldest son to fly out to protect his mother from me. I actually became fearful of how next my wife was going to hurt me. All very powerful emotions that are so rare it confuses the mind. And all that with my wife who I’d loved for 40 years.

Please keep this in mind as you will walk your path through life.

Bob


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Hmmm... not sure if I'm in agreement with much of what is written in these three post. While I don't feel my wife has been treating me fairly, I don't think it has been a conscious plot - well in the middle years , yes I think it was conscious but then it was the "I am not treating her up to spec" and, I wasn't then.

I take offense to my wife being called twisted if you were saying it as an intentional action on her part, if due to the abuse, I unfortunately believe she has been twisted a bit.

Obviously, it would be hard for me to say I've not allowed myself to be a doormat in this realm... Also, since while I believe I am acting properly toward my wife, I also see that I'm acting exactly as a person would do in my "defined" circumstance and as such it would be hard for me to do otherwise than argue it away.

Thus I will keep all this in mind and do my best to make certain these issues come to the attention of the professional working with us. Who knows, I may even revisit my individual counselor and have him take a look at this and see what he thinks.

Thank you so much for you time and repeated attempts to help this sink in with me.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

OMG,
I hope that you remember that people can tell you their views and opinions only from their vantage point. I get that sex is really important to some people, and to some it's their most important identity. 

There cannot be an abuse when an adult consciously accept and "choose" to be where he or she is. That person can always choose to somewhere else. It takes incredible amount of courage and strength to consciously choose rather than letting your unconscious history repeat itself. Most people are too afraid to look within and choose based on love. Most people unconsciously react to fear.

Only you know your own truth, and what other people, including myself, tell you are their views about the world and themselves. Don't let other people's fear infect you. 

I hope that you stay your course and don't make a decision out of fear. That is the courage and strength. 
Take care!


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> Thus I will keep all this in mind and do my best to make certain these issues come to the attention of the professional working with us. Who knows, I may even revisit my individual counselor and have him take a look at this and see what he thinks.


Personally, I think you're better off with individual counselling. Your marriage problems are the result of the combining of your baggage with your wife's. She has little intention of shedding hers. However, you seem determined to work on yourself, so if you can find a really insightful counsellor, you might be able to take a few short-cuts.

You are way too hard on yourself. You are a nice guy who is doing all he can. Give yourself a break


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> Thank you WantsHappiness(forAll)
> 
> I've good news. So last night we had a bit of a tif over very little to do at all. Prior to bed I asked her if she wanted to dicuss it (we have been doing pretty good at this) and we did. Got past the little tif (more a phrase meaning different to the receiver that to the giver - communication to the rescue!)
> 
> ...


Well of course I do. Peace and love, man 

I was very glad to read your good news here, omg. The fact that you were both able to resolve this particular tiff to an acceptable conclusion on both sides is good. The fact that she was open to a deeper discussion is even better. 

More good news that she had done a 180 on Father’s Day. Did you have a nice day? 

Now, what about the follow up conversation that was supposed to happen? Please follow through on this. Do not let it slide, you will be enforcing a pattern if you do. Instead, enforce your need to have the discussion. Sometimes (and especially in the beginning) it’s my husband’s insistence on having the conversation that really helps me keep from avoiding it. 




questions said:


> There cannot be an abuse when an adult consciously accept and "choose" to be where he or she is. That person can always choose to somewhere else.


Whilst the second sentence is very true, an individual who is physically beat but chooses not to leave their situation is still being abused, period. It does NOT excuse the abuser. Same goes for emotional abuse, just because someone does not wear the scars on their skin does not mean they do not exist. I have truly enjoyed your perspective on this, questions, as I do most of your posts but I hope that you will never say something like this to someone who is being abused. Yes, only they have the power to change their situation but abuse is abuse regardless.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

While I'm afraid that the topic of abuse could take away from the core of this thread, I'd like to expand and clarify my statement.

First, in this particular situation with OMG, I don't think that OMG perceives his current relationship is abusive. He has "consciously" chosen to become a different person and he's in his journey of becoming that person. He has actively decided to be where he is now to work on that journey. IMHO, I don't see an abuse here, especially when OMG doesn't see one after much examination.

There are clearly circumstances where a partner's behaviors are "abusive" and the other partner is unwilling or unable to see the "abuses". There are no conscious choices here, and this is a situation where some forms of intervention are desired and often become necessary. Some believe that OMG is here, and that's why they try to point as strongly and urgently as possible to shout "abuse alert!". 

My statement applied to OMG's situation specifically. I personally see a very mature and conscious individual who is trying his best to improve himself. I personally don't see any form of abuse in this particular situation.


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

Thank you for the clarification. It just sounded like a blanket statement. 

I understand your expanded feelings on the definition of abuse as it pertains to omg’s situation as I’m not exactly clear myself as to whether or not that is the case. As mentioned throughout this thread we cannot possibly know everything without walking a mile in his shoes but at the very least some boundaries clearly need defining at some point during the counseling process.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The abuse is in the form of deception. She is telling him she will love him in the true (marital) sense of the word if he does x,y and z. But she won't and knows at some level she won't. That deception is a type of abuse.





questions said:


> While I'm afraid that the topic of abuse could take away from the core of this thread, I'd like to expand and clarify my statement.
> 
> First, in this particular situation with OMG, I don't think that OMG perceives his current relationship is abusive. He has "consciously" chosen to become a different person and he's in his journey of becoming that person. He has actively decided to be where he is now to work on that journey. IMHO, I don't see an abuse here, especially when OMG doesn't see one after much examination.
> 
> ...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> The abuse is in the form of deception. She is telling him she will love him in the true (marital) sense of the word if he does x,y and z. But she won't and knows at some level she won't. That deception is a type of abuse.


That's only one of the abuses - although it's tragic in that the worst resentment one can experience is the kind triggered by being constantly promised something but never quite receiving it. 

For instance, there is a phenomenon called the "dopamine crash". This can occur when someone gets excited about the prospect of something fun or deeply pleasurable. As the anticipation of pleasure (yet to come) builds, dopamine levels rise, and this rise feels very exciting. If at the last minute, the expected activity is cancelled, the dopamine levels to crash, and elation turns into depression. If this is experienced repeatedly with the same person, it can be sheer hell.

Look at the excitement that the two promises of this post brings:


OneMarriedGuy said:


> Afterwards, as I said I done everynow and then over the months and was gong to make a point of doing more often, I asked her how I'd been doing meeting her needs. She said she did not want to go into it at that time (it was really late and she did look beat) but would like to discuss it sometime and "to be fair she would ask the same back to me". THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!!! Yes, since she never did I've come out and approached some things with her, but she has NEVER ONCE shown a concern for it on her own in the past. Well with her, saying is one thing and doing yet another (my work video, sex promises, sex therapy are some listed in the curent post/novel) but at least it shows progress! I was pretty excited and told her so!
> 
> Because of other commitments I certain these conversations will not happen today but I will at least bring my side of it up again maybe Monday or Tuesday.
> 
> ALSO she told me today she was not planning on going into her store on Father's Day and that she had an idea of something we might do together with the kids! It may seem odd that I'm this excited but it but after batting a big zero from her on Valentine's Day this year I really was not quite sure what to expect.


If either promise gets broken, it will trigger a crash.


The shower-head stuff coupled with her letting him get involved only to a minor extent and at her command, while also having online flirtations is another example of abuse.

The fact that he puts up with it is self-abuse.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

OMG,
I'm sure that you know your wife and the dynamics of your relationship better than any of us. I'm just a big fan of what you're doing here with your endeavor to better yourself and your relationship with her. 

Personally, I don't believe that others have any power to make me feel anything I don't let myself feel. If I feel angry, hurt, sad, happy, it's because I chose to feel that way and not because of others. I don't like to give that kind of power to anyone, including my DH. In that sense, I feel fully responsible for my own emotions. I can maintain my peace knowing that I'm not a victim. If I'm awake and conscious enough (which is very, very rare), I occasionally ask myself what Jesus would do in this particular situation. In that way, I at least know what my ideal answer would be, even if that's not ultimately what I am capable of doing at the moment. While I don't expect many people to share my views, I get the sense that that you might be more open this view.

The most wonderful gift is always the one that's given with no strings attached, and love is the same. I'm just a cheerleader here with an occasional reminder to you to become gentle and loving to yourself in this path. You'll reap the benefits of the path you're on now, regardless of the outcome of your marriage.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

When adults abuse each other, there is often an element of self abuse. The fact that his OMG's wife has a sex drive is evidenced by her frequent shower-head sessions. But while she fantasises about sex with others, she keeps him carefully positioned in the background. Thus she continually displays a kind of sexual repulsion for him. This is surely abuse, but there is a self-abuse element due to his long term condoning of it.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

Hello friends, just wanted to pop in and let you know I am still here. 

First off Father's Day was very nice. I enjoyed it and my wife was fun, very attentive and loving, kids were fun and loving as well. I worked a bit (own choice - darn ground ivy), relaxed a lot (good swimming pool) and did a together project with my young two boys of assembling and planting the tomatoes in their upside down garden thing. 

Abuse, sure I think abuse qualifies as a descriptive word. I think she has had her share of it from me in the past as well. OK, this one is not in the past it is still ongoing...so were the others until the patterns/habits were changed. No, I'm not down playing it. It is extremely painful. It is to the point now where I don't even want her to see me naked as it embarrasses me. No, not my nakedness, the fact that my nakedness has about the same effect as old wallpaper to her.

That being said, we haven't gotten to working on this problem yet (in counseling - the only place it has a chance) and until it has had the effort and fallen flat I don't believe it is time to give up.

One way or the other I think my wife needs this to come out and be worked on in counseling, either marital or individual as I think she is missing a lot in life being surrounded by the castle she has created. True, it may not ever be me that reaps the rewards (and yes if that is the case I know I would at times have pity parties - or totally T'd off parties - for me) but it would be unloving of me not to want the best for her.

And while I've gone from feeling undesirable to undesired (a step up), I am not content with just that for myself either, I wish to be desired. I would prefer that it would be my wife that I become content in this arena with and intend to explore that direction first.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

MT, just an FYI. I stopped talking my meds for a while and you ARE correct. The pain, resentment, hurt, etc from living in this rejected state becomes MUCH worse (not to mention I get hornier more often which accentuates the problem). It becomes a struggle to not let it affect my mood with her and others. 

At any rate I'm going back on them now. Yes, to dull the pain, to give time for counseling to approach the issue and in general just to be happier and enjoy my life better. Yes, I realize I am burying my head in the sand. It was getting tho the point that I would sleep on the couch rather than feel the rejection. Quite a "cut off your nose to spite your face" move as I also quite need the snuggle time with her. 

So, in general I'd have to say being off the meds led to a downward spiral in our relationship, due to it allowing a single missing portion to weigh too heavily. What I was missing became too much of my minds focus instead of appreciating on all the wonderful things I do have.

PS - "I had to take a breather from this thread. Your guilt-trip hurts me." I don't think that was necessarily meant funny, but it does make me chuckle still - I mean looking outside in, I can rather see your point.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Don't drug yourself. Don't do that. You'll never ever discover who you are while you're on drugs.


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

The who i am and who I want to be did not change meds or no. Only the rejection, pain resentment and my reaction to it was harder to keep in check and be the person I want to be.

It's like this...I AM in this situation. I am apparently not going to be out if it anytime soon. We have more things to work on and it will take time. I can either live with more attention and appreciation for what I DO have or live with more attention and pain from what I DON'T have and in the process possibly even take away from some of the good things that I DO have.

It doesn't blind me, it just lets my head leave the situation more quickly and get on with the rest of my life sooner. Part of the reason I got off for a while was rather to do a check of where i really was and to see if I did still need/desire to be on them.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Bottom line... are you stuck in this relationship?

Until you have the power to walk away, you will never solve it. Your wife senses that she has beaten you. It's written all over her face.


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## Dani (Jul 1, 2010)

I can relate to the no intimacy and why would you would not want to make love without it at least SOME times. For me it's like "making love all day" without the acutal act, like when you were dating, but not expecting anything at the end. That's "it" for me. Knowing I don't have to deliver after nice times like that tells me he loves me for me and not just sex. I know other women who agree with this; you can always tell when the guy wants sex and it's kinda phony the "act" that goes on. Would be more effective if the "act" was NORMAL, then it wouldnt' be an act if sex followed.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi OMG,
I was depressed and suicidal at one time. I went to the doc and told him I think I’m depressed. What was his response? He gave me a word to search for in Google that would lead me to a site that had a test for depression saying that if I answered yes to 5 of the 7 questions that would mean I was depressed. I asked him what happens next. His answer was that I come back and he gives me some pills. Seems to me these doctors never get to the underlying problem, they just treat the symptoms of a problem. Our lot were the same for infections. Got an infection, here’s some antibiotics. Two weeks later. Oh! You’ve still got the same infection, try these different antibiotics. They haven’t a clue.

Here’s an example. You say you’re resentful. How on earth is a pill going to cure your resentment? A pill just cures the symptoms of resentment for as long as you take the pills. You’re medicating yourself to take away the symptoms of your resentment.

Was is resentment? Strong passive anger and dislike against the person who committed the offence? How on earth are you going to have a happy marriage while you have those feeling against your partner? There are others ways of being rid permanently of resentment. It’s a spiritual way, path if you like that does not need pills. It involves forgiveness. Now if you can’t forgive your wife then I reckon your marriage is over. It’s the path I took and I never went back to the doctor for his pills.

It’s what people mean by working on your “self”. Yes two separate words, not “yourself”. Once you’re rid of your strong anger and dislike for your wife, then you can work on your boundaries. We have boundaries to protect our “self” from further abuse. I think it a pity boundaries are needed in a relationship that is supposed to be a mutually supportive and loving one but sometimes they are needed.

If you work on, identify your boundaries, essentially behaviour you will no longer tolerate, then you will identify the core of the person you are. But more importantly you will no longer be abused by the abuser. You will feel yourself change as you identify what your boundaries are, you will become a stronger person, less tolerant person, from the inside out.

Once you declare your new found boundaries to your partner she will not only see, observe but will feel a deep seismic change in you. She will know that she will no longer be able to play her emotional games with you. If she transgresses and keeps hitting your hot buttons how many warnings you want to give her is up to you. They do need time to adjust to the new you and they do need to know that you are so serious about it all.

When I told my wife of the behaviour I'd no longer tolerate my wife knew she could no longer hurt me. What she did do was to try to hit me with yet another false accusation of some henious, made up, offence. At that point in time our marriage was permantly over. It was a transforming, life changing experience.

Don’t take the pills … work on your “self”.

Your forgiving and boundary setting processes may well take you a month or two or maybe three. Depends how much spare time you have for your self. It needs your focus on you and only you. Your wife will see you “withdraw” from the “combat zone”. She will see a difference in your behaviour and may well try and tweak your emotions to bring you back into her zone, to get your focus back on her. Ignore it and keep the focus on yourself but observe how your wife responds and just journal it plus the process you are going through.

Bob


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

No, I am not "stuck" in this relationship. I very much want to be in it. I also believe it has the potential to get better and wish to put the effort and time and energy into just that.


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## questions (May 7, 2010)

OMG,

I believe that our emotions and physical symptoms are the sign posts showing us where we are and what we still need to work on. Without those sign posts, we can't learn where we are or we are headed. When we are upset, angry, sad, and in a high level of pain, we have in front of us an incredible opportunity for growth. Nobody can sustain such acute pain for so long, and people eventually either learn to accept or change for better. Out of being in so much pain and finding life so difficult, I learned to view the world with a different pair of lenses than with the ones I grew up. I am not sure whether my new pair of lenses would have been possible without having gone through such pain.

I am not well versed on drugs/meds, but if they just dull what you actually feel, I have to say that they are just delaying your progress at best and giving you crutches to avoid reality at worst. You'll never know whether your current endeavor and efforts are simply the influence of drugs. You wouldn't know where you are.

Sometime, the life becomes so painful as the gap between what we want and what we have becomes very big. If you have to rely on drugs to narrow the gap, I'm not sure if you'll ever close the gap. It's just another form of avoidance. In our struggle to close the gap, we either learn to accept the gap or decide to pursue a different path and learn about ourselves in the process.

It's ok to take drugs when not doing so becomes danger to yourself or others, but if you're doing it to change or grow yourelf, I'm afraid that you're navigating life without a map or compass.

I sincerely hope that you can do what're doing without the help of drugs. It's only then you can see a progress.

Wish you the best.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OneMarriedGuy said:


> No, I am not "stuck" in this relationship. I very much want to be in it. I also believe it has the potential to get better and wish to put the effort and time and energy into just that.


But you are in some ways a coward. You will need to face things head on to get anywhere. Your retreat into drugs is not an answer.


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## WantsHappiness (Jun 17, 2009)

Omg, I can’t say much more than I agree with the other posters. You are burying your head in the sand in order to accept the situation, one which you need not accept in a marriage that is healthy. Of course, yours is not healthy and you know that you are very much delaying the inevitable by continuing the medication, you admit so. 

Since you are aware of this I can only hope that you will set a time limit for yourself. A realistic one where you decide to take off the rose colored glasses for good and move forward because you will have to start counseling from the beginning again once you do. The whole ball game will have changed, as you got a glimpse of, and you will have to undo all of the resentment you are currently building by ignoring one of the major problems. 

How are things progressing otherwise? Her avoidance issues? Attention to the marriage?


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