# Having trouble with WW wanting to be friends



## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

Been lurking and taking advice since discovering WW having an EA in July 2014. Been through the sex in marriage, coping with infidelity, considering divorce, and now in going through a separation.

Quick recap of my story. I can expound on individual events.

I'm 50, wife 40. Married 8 years, together 10. One son, 6 years old.

Wife is somewhat narcissistic, probable Borderline Personality Disorder, and has been estranged from parents and brother for many years.


In June of 2011 I gave up and became a beta to keep my family together. After a particularly bad argument I decided myself to give her control of the marriage and be a good husband.

Good times and bad times, albeit enduring emotional abuse, until the discovery of the EA in July 2014. All the signs, distance, no affection, different friends, coming home late, etc. Confronted her and WW lied. 

WW wanted to walkaway then but I did all the wrong things before finding TAM. Discovered NMMNG, MMSLP, and HN HN, and we stayed together another year (with no sex). 

For three months, Aug-Oct 2015 things were going much better. Communication, good times, sex.

Nov 23, 2015 wife turned her hand quickly after receiving a text. Left the phone on the table like always, but came back quickly and took phone with her. Checked phone bill and saw 200 texts to an unknown number since the beginning of Nov. Also no sex for me since end of Oct. 

Did my research and discovered plenty of circumstantial evidence of an EA. Confronted and WW wants out. No remorse, no guilt.

Moved out after Christmas after having her threaten to move my stuff out for me. She pays the rent, I pay the bills. Always been the agreement, so nothing changes. It's her house.

Separated since then. I have my son as much if not more that her as she works nights (at a bar, part of the problem). Also we live in a very small community (and I mean very small). 

My main dilemmas now, (not to be confused with all the other crap going on), are what to tell people and WW wanting to be friends. She wants to put on a united front for our son. She wants to be friends and spend some time together, start over and maybe be friends. She does not want to reconcile the marriage in any way.

We live in a very small tourist community. We met here, got married here, had a child here, owned businesses here, know everyone here.

When people ask, because people notice us not together, what do I say? She wants me to say "we've grown apart", "we've changed", "we want other things in life", etc.

I typically say, "we're no longer together, she decided she no longer wants to be married". If they're good friends and inquire further, I add, "she had an inappropriate relationship and when confronted, she decided to leave the marriage".

This is what I want to say, "She has been emotionally abusing me for years. After the second emotional affair, I was done. My wife lied to me, disrespected me, and broke our marriage vows".

So I've been doing a hard 180 since November. She does not want to reconcile. We do not communicate except the discuss our son. Now she wants to be friends and I find that hard while doing the 180.

She is unable to have a rational conversation and I repeatedly suggest we can talk but with a moderator. I am watching marital history change and fighting gas lightning. I've been burned by this is the past and do not want to repeat or make things worse.

Well, there's my story. Thanks TAM members for getting me this far and thanks in advance for future help. I'm going to need it.

Phil


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Nope....stick to the 180...and when she ask to be friends, tell her its bad enough i married you, why the hell would i want to be your friend, i have the knife marks in the back to prove it. No thanks, and when people ask tell them the truth, why should she skate free from this.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Use this temp plate to develop a narrative Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums. While there is no need to expose per say you need to develp a narrative. 

What you share with friends is fine but perhaps need fine tuning. For example my ex has trouble developing and maintaing healthy relationships long term. It has lead to a ruptured relationship with between her and her family and with me. As a result of her acting out we separated and are divorcing. If pressed for details, simple say I have mixed feelings sharing more. 

As to being friends, NO. All her relationships are/will be dysfunctional. Instead shoot for being an ally in the raising of your son. 
Read up on the concept of grey rocking. Check out @sixty-eight she is married to the make version of your WS.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/302474-trial-separation-pros-cons.html


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

why don't you try living your life on your own terms for a change. You lived from your posts as a doormat for sometime. 

A betrayer is never going to be your friend. Why bother?????

Stay as dark as possible and move on if you're smart.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

JohnA said:


> Use this temp plate to develop a narrative Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums. While there is no need to expose per say you need to develp a narrative.
> 
> What you share with friends is fine but perhaps need fine tuning. For example my ex has trouble developing and maintaing healthy relationships long term. It has lead to a ruptured relationship with between her and her family and with me. As a result of her acting out we separated and are divorcing. If pressed for details, simple say I have mixed feelings sharing more.
> 
> ...


my sympathies.

She seems to desire that you protect her reputation by not voicing why your marriage ended. Classic narcissist. Your silence is their power. Tell whoever you want what happened. let your concern be for your child only. If you don't want him to know, then don't let it into the public forum.
I personally think the things you typically say are spot on. But i like John's advice about simply stating you have mixed feelings about sharing. Sometimes i tell overly curious outsiders that I cannot share anything else without speaking poorly of someone. I know my stbx regularly tells people that i am crazy, and seeking mental help. I want to remain graceful in the face of that.

To avoid the rewriting history/gaslighting manipulation, try keeping a journal. This has helped me immensely. They are also useful in court. If journaling isn't your thing, try jotting down summaries in a day planner.

another tactic i like to use is that i refuse to have any verbal communication with my stbx. if they refuse, blocking them from any contact except for email is another way to force only documented communication.

No, being friends is not beneficial to you. It just opens you up to hoovering or more dysfunction. No contact is your best bet for healing and moving on, but with minor children grey rock is the next best thing.
The gray rock method of dealing with psychopaths/


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## Borntohang (Sep 4, 2014)

When people ask, how about being honest! You don't need to throw up all the particulars, but the truth. 
As for your continued relationship with her, be honest with yourself! Show her the REAL Phil!
The guy you used to be!


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Hi @sixty-eight suggestion of keeping a journal is great. Use this thread or an off line method to do so. Doing so will enable you to open up with yourself and others. Sixty-eight posted here for months before sharing some very personal info about his attempted sexual abuse and his physical abuse. 

It takes time for one basic truth to sink in: sometimes it really is totally them, not me. Wow, what amazing moment that is. So read her thread and read @LosingHim threads. Both these women have grown and heading in a good direction. Lots of bumps but as my brother would say: they have gotten a clue, they have gotten a grip, now they are kicking ass and getting a life.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

It sounds like she just wants control of you even after the marriage is over with. You know if she wanted to be friends she wouldn't have abused the friendship she had with you to begin with. My xW demanded the same crap. I just told her Don't Call. Don't Write. We are not friends. 

It took six months of her writing letters to get that stopped  lol

C


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

This is simple.

You say, "No."

And when people ask, tell them as much or as little of the truth as you feel appropriate, but tell them the truth.

Just be sure to keep it dignified and tactful.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

JohnA said:


> Use this temp plate to develop a narrative Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums. While there is no need to expose per say you need to develp a narrative.
> 
> What you share with friends is fine but perhaps need fine tuning. For example my ex has trouble developing and maintaing healthy relationships long term. It has lead to a ruptured relationship with between her and her family and with me. As a result of her acting out we separated and are divorcing. If pressed for details, simple say I have mixed feelings sharing more.
> 
> ...



thanks, I'll check it out.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

sixty-eight said:


> my sympathies.
> 
> She seems to desire that you protect her reputation by not voicing why your marriage ended. Classic narcissist. Your silence is their power. Tell whoever you want what happened. let your concern be for your child only. If you don't want him to know, then don't let it into the public forum.
> I personally think the things you typically say are spot on. But i like John's advice about simply stating you have mixed feelings about sharing. Sometimes i tell overly curious outsiders that I cannot share anything else without speaking poorly of someone. I know my stbx regularly tells people that i am crazy, and seeking mental help. I want to remain graceful in the face of that.
> ...


thanks, my son is very aware and knows what is happening. He knows Mummy doesn't want Daddy around anymore and he knows Mummy hurt Daddy. I'll look into the grey rock thing.

I am keeping track of how much I have my son. I also have a very good memory but when she says she never said it, I don't have any thing to back it up.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

It's the hypocrisy of the social structure right now and it is littered all over these threads. No, I am not saying you argue and slowly become abusive. You make the marriage equal then work on things through compromise and boundaries. This is why you do not back down to save a marriage for your children. You ended up in the same place your imagination took you, if you would have stood up for yourself.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

Clay2013 said:


> It sounds like she just wants control of you even after the marriage is over with. You know if she wanted to be friends she wouldn't have abused the friendship she had with you to begin with. My xW demanded the same crap. I just told her Don't Call. Don't Write. We are not friends.
> 
> It took six months of her writing letters to get that stopped  lol
> 
> C



I agree that she still wants to control what goes on. Because she can't she gets very angry with me.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Just wait until she sees your moving on with someone else. You think you have problems now I bet she will cause you all kind of grief them. 

My xW moved right in with her new guy and then *****ed that I filed for divorce so fast. She just could not believe I was divorcing her for sleeping with someone else. I will never understand a cheater. There logic is completely flawed. I just found it best to distance myself. 

Just keep moving forward and dont look back. 

C


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

philreag said:


> I agree that she still wants to control what goes on. Because she can't *she gets very angry* with me.


Just another way to control you. Somebody posted an article in CWI that might help you:

The Mindfvck Only Has Three Channels:

Charm

Rage

Self-pity

http://www.chumplady.com/2016/02/the-mind****-only-has-three-channels/


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Why is this a thing with cheaters? My future ex sister in law is the same with my brother in law. She got pissed off because she didn't get invited to his Super Bowl party. Like what? She's going to bring the OM and they are all going to be friends. It's delusional. It's like they just can't slink away and leave the BS alone.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Why is this a thing with cheaters? My future ex sister in law is the same with my brother in law. She got pissed off because she didn't get invited to his Super Bowl party. Like what? She's going to bring the OM and they are all going to be friends. It's delusional. It's like they just can't slink away and leave the BS alone.


Many, not all, cheaters are abusive self centered bullies and only gain understanding once you have broken their nose and knocked their ass in the dirt.

Your brother is probably nicer to her than she deserves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Many, not all, cheaters are abusive self centered bullies and only gain understanding once you have broken their nose and knocked their ass in the dirt.
> 
> Your brother is probably nicer to her than she deserves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well your right, he's been too nice for far too long but he says that stops when the divorce is final in May. We will see.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I like to expand my suggestion to look at co-parents as being allied with someone but not friends. 

Allies vs Friends*

France is a great ally but a louse friend. *I recall a conversation with someone in the eighties who lived and worked in France for a number of years who made this statement. *This was at the height of WFT is their problem. *

To simplify his thoughts:*

First he made this point: Americans think you should be nice and try to like everyone, * The French don't even like each other. *So why should they like you? * *But they do grasp the importance of "partnership" to achieve a goal. *To them they only care about holding up their end of the bargain *and you holding up your end, *Note that then the only that matters is what is explicitly agreed actions,

The bottom line they have no problem sleeping with your spouse while "allied" with you. *They would see this as *beside the point, *they would just judge the worth of the partner in how well they held up their part of the deal. * *

In this case the BS only concern is that the WS only do what is agreed upon. The well being of the WS is none of the BS spouse and the BS will not offer any assistance only demanding to know how the WS will up hold there end of the deal. 







So that is why I say allied in * co-parenting * But not friends.*


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## plomito (Apr 7, 2015)

JohnA said:


> I like to expand my suggestion to look at co-parents as being allied with someone but not friends.
> 
> Allies vs Friends*
> 
> ...


Well said, I'm going through almost the same thing and I learned that we cannot be friends for our kids, we can try to maintain a open channel of communication but friendship, never happen 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Typically, when a narcissist suggests ''lets be friends,'' it's really code for ...''I want to keep you on a shelf, so when the need arises and I need you, you'll be there, because we're...you know, friends.''

NO CONTACT except for dealings with your son. And she doesn't get to tell you what to tell others. lol This brings back memories, of when I dated a narcissist. Ugh, they are all alike.

Go no contact...only discuss your son. You can't be friends with a narcissist, because they don't know how to be friends. Just being real about it.  You will only get hurt again and again, if you stay connected with her. Good luck to you.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

She doesn't want to be friends. She wants to ease her conscience, what little she has. It's all about her, remember that.

I'm having a similar problem. If I didn't have kids with my own little ex/narcissist, is tell her to fu*k off and leave me alone. But I don't have conversations with the Nasty b anymore. Had to stop that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Typically, when a narcissist suggests ''lets be friends,'' it's really code for ...''I want to keep you on a shelf, so when the need arises and I need you, you'll be there, because we're...you know, friends.''
> 
> NO CONTACT except for dealings with your son. And she doesn't get to tell you what to tell others. lol This brings back memories, of when I dated a narcissist. Ugh, they are all alike.
> 
> Go no contact...only discuss your son. You can't be friends with a narcissist, because they don't know how to be friends. Just being real about it.  You will only get hurt again and again, if you stay connected with her. Good luck to you.


Exactly!

ha! they are all alike. it's a little eerie, to be honest.
that's exactly what grey rock is. You are no contact as much as possible, and when discussing children you keep it super boring as much as possible. If you don't feed into their need for attention (positive or negative, doesn't matter) then they will move on to a new target.

tonight mine sent me messages calling me a pos (because i declined to lend him a suitcase of mine when he comes to visit the children tomorrow). and then informed me that we need to learn to get along and agree. 
That's code for: learn to agree with everything I say, and do everything my way.

everything they say is fake, and code for something else. Usually something that gives them an advantage or special treatment.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

sixty-eight said:


> Exactly!
> 
> ha! they are all alike. it's a little eerie, to be honest.
> that's exactly what grey rock is. You are no contact as much as possible, and when discussing children you keep it super boring as much as possible. If you don't feed into their need for attention (positive or negative, doesn't matter) then they will move on to a new target.
> ...


lol it is very eerie indeed!!

I remember a guy I dated who was a narcissist, and he asked to be friends, and this was before I knew anything really about the disorder, and tried to be friends, but this was just so he could insult me, and start arguing with me again. No contact is a person's best friend when dealing with these types. 

Yours sounds like the same thing, he wants to keep communicating so he can continue the control game. They are very predictable and very boring, when you figure them out.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Typically, when a narcissist suggests ''lets be friends,'' it's really code for ...''I want to keep you on a shelf, so when the need arises and I need you, you'll be there, because we're...you know, friends.''
> 
> NO CONTACT except for dealings with your son. And she doesn't get to tell you what to tell others. lol This brings back memories, of when I dated a narcissist. Ugh, they are all alike.
> 
> Go no contact...only discuss your son. You can't be friends with a narcissist, because they don't know how to be friends. Just being real about it.  You will only get hurt again and again, if you stay connected with her. Good luck to you.




Pretty spot on. She's asked me to do a variety of things for her since she told me to leave, some of which the irony amazes me.

Doing the best I can on the no contact. We live in a very small place with the same circle of friends. People are still finding out we split as it just been a couple months.

Thanks for your advice.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> She doesn't want to be friends. She wants to ease her conscience, what little she has. It's all about her, remember that.
> 
> I'm having a similar problem. If I didn't have kids with my own little ex/narcissist, is tell her to fu*k off and leave me alone. But I don't have conversations with the Nasty b anymore. Had to stop that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Sometimes it can turn so quick, from discussing the weather to how awful a human being I am. That's why I want someone around if we talk, so someone else can hear crazy.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

sixty-eight said:


> Exactly!
> 
> and then informed me that we need to learn to get along and agree.
> That's code for: learn to agree with everything I say, and do everything my way.



It's like the word amicable, meaning, if you do it my way we can get along.


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## lateralus (Feb 14, 2016)

I tend to think that most xWS's reach a point where they get over it.

My xWW and I split four years ago. She took as much money in child support and as much time with our daughter as she could. Three years later, she offered to give up child support and agreed to 50/50 time.

The last time I heard from her about that was two years ago when I declined going to our daughter's first parent teacher conference together. I opted to schedule my own time. That led to a snarky text, which I ignored.

We co parent effectively now, and she's much more respectful now than she ever was. It took a few years, but I managed to train her to understand that I'm far more likely to work with her if she drops the entitlement and attitude.

I think she's learned we'll never be friends. She has no place in my life.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You guys aren't friend....your parents!

Handle that business and find friends that dont stab you in the back.

That way you work on your friendships, you work on parenting, you work on your hobbies, and you work on a career.

To bad your old lady didn't want to be apart of all of these things...now she is only apart of one of these things and from were I'm sitting it was her choice.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

philreag said:


> I agree that she still wants to control what goes on. Because she can't she gets very angry with me.


So, now she's trying to be nice to get what she wants.

She wants what she wants.

If you're not ok with it, say "I'm not ok with it"

NO ONE can tell you that you are ok with something you're not ok with.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

There is an element of what is a friend and the idea of a friendship with an ex WS that I don't recall reading here or on other boards. A friendship is a personal form of validation offered to one person to another. It a sense is says " I endorse this person". So in a sense the WS who seek to claim my BS and I are friends are in a sense claiming their ex has come to realize they where correct in choosing adultery. 

I mentioned in other threads I spent a lot of years in sales so I see a request of frendship in this situation as a form of "implied sales" technique. (think so you like this type of car, should I order it blue or gray for you.) 

Bye the way I was in business to business long term relationship sales. Not one and done sales.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

JohnA said:


> There is an element of what is a friend and the idea of a friendship with an ex WS that I don't recall reading here or on other boards. A friendship is a personal form of validation offered to one person to another. It a sense is says " I endorse this person". So in a sense the WS who seek to claim my BS and I are friends are in a sense claiming their ex has come to realize they where correct in choosing adultery.



I agree. I think if we become friends, it will validate her decision to break up our family. Because that is what she wants, she again is still in control.

We will always be acquaintances, but just not good friends.


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

She is still having problems with stuff breaking. She is quite rough on stuff and breaks things all the time.

Since I left her car has broken down twice. The second time she borrowed the neighbor's car. I did offer but she decided she couldn't ask me as she thought I would tell her no. I guess she finally figured when you tell someone to get out of your life, they don't need to help you anymore.

It's difficult as she does need a car for my son.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Sucks to be her.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

philreag said:


> She is still having problems with stuff breaking. She is quite rough on stuff and breaks things all the time.
> 
> Since I left her car has broken down twice. The second time she borrowed the neighbor's car. I did offer but she decided she couldn't ask me as she thought I would tell her no. I guess she finally figured when you tell someone to get out of your life, they don't need to help you anymore.
> 
> It's difficult as she does need a car for my son.


Stand tall.

Being a single mother is her problem.

She is now to manage her own life - with it's own consequences. All her choice.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Remember, you got fired from your job. You no longer work for your previous boss. I was also fired. I've gotten over it. I let the new guy take care of her.

Every time you feel a little weakness, remember WHY she is on a bind, and who asked for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

i


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"Did my research and discovered plenty of circumstantial evidence of an EA. Confronted and WW wants out. No remorse, no guilt."

Is this POSOM someone local to you? Do you know him? Do you know anything about him? I think exposure here will certainly protect you from your wife causing you issues locally. You should certainly be able to tell the truth. Just don't make it so brutal that it will come to bite you or your son.

Also, agree with others here -- she is NOT your friend, and after what she's done why would you want to be? You can co-parent without being friends. Keep it short, and discuss only things financial for the D and things about your son. Everything else, you don't need to listen to. If she starts in on you, just walk away. Do not let her control you or what you do in any way.


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## lozpop (Jul 6, 2018)

hope you get your resovle.what is ww.im from england


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