# Overspender



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

Hi,
I’m a long time lurker, but this situation is causing high stress.
About 3 years ago I started my own part time business. It is still in the growing stages. The first two years I was re-investing my profits into product and training.
My husband thought my profits should be split 50/50 with him. It’s not that I don’t necessarily want to share with him, but everything I have at this point is going back in to the business.
I pour my heart and soul into this and to have him sit at home watching reruns on TV all day and ‘reep’ the rewards doesn’t seem fair.
I have told him to get his own side job and he can keep that money for himself, but he’s too lazy.
That aside, his spending habits are going to ruin us. He has $30,000 personal credit card debt and an $80,000 vehicle. He purchased that 2 years ago and is already sick of it. He wants to trade it in on something different. Same thing, different brand. Last trade in he did was on a vehicle he had 9 months and lost $24,000 on.
I told him it makes no sense. He thinks because this vehicle is $20,000 less than the original price of his current vehicle, he will come out ahead. Ummm no because you lost value coming off the lot, and your existing loan is worth more than your trade in. You will carry that to new vehicle payment which will put your loan at same damn thing it is now.
He thinks if he can save $50 a month on vehicle payments, he’s doing a good thing. His payment is $950 a month currently.
I could go on and on about his poor spending decisions. Smartest thing I did is refuse to sign his last car loan so at least my name isn’t tied to that debt. His credit card debt is all on him as well. My name isn’t on those cards.
I found out this week that he tried to get access code to my business card. He thinks because there is room on there, I have discretionary money available and he doesn’t. 
I get *****ed at for month hair appointments, and 6 times a year suppers with friends.
When I try to talk sense into him about his spending, I’m controlling about money and my spending comes into play.
I have suggested we are in charge of own bills and split household bills (he pays his vehicle, insurance, phone, credit cards and I pay mine, we split the household bills like mortgage, utilities etc), but that’s living like a single man.
I’m scared that I won’t have any retirement left if I keep up with this husband. He thinks because he works he deserves to be rewarded.
He leaves bill paying up to me. So it’s me scrambling how to cover all his ‘rewards’.
Is there any way out of this other than leaving him to his own financial mess? I have tried talking sense into him, I have tried splitting the money and he doesn’t want any of it. It’s not only the wild spending, it’s also the manipulation behind it. Help!


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

OnFleek said:


> Hi,
> I’m a long time lurker, but this situation is causing high stress.
> About 3 years ago I started my own part time business. It is still in the growing stages. The first two years I was re-investing my profits into product and training.
> My husband thought my profits should be split 50/50 with him. It’s not that I don’t necessarily want to share with him, but everything I have at this point is going back in to the business.
> ...


I think you need to learn something. 
In a worse case scenario anything in your home can be seized to repay your husbands debts unless you can prove conclusively that they are solely owned and paid for by you. I’m talking about household goods, tv’s, laptops, tablets ,stereo systems, even kitchen appliances. If you don’t have a receipt for these items in just your name then they can be seized to pay off any debt your husband has.
In general unless the credit card debt stems from a jointly owned account the creditors only go after the person named on the credit card but this isn’t always the case especially if it’s a large debt. 
Do you realize that you could lose your home because of his decision making?
Protect yourself here and see a lawyer.
Maybe even a divorce lawyer.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

No matter how successful that business becomes he will only spend more money and keep you in the poor house. You could be making 5 mil a year and the result will be the same.
Some people have no financial control and he is one of them. If you want to stay poor and in debt all your life then stay with him. If you want to be able to retire one day you better dump
the chump.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

It sounds like he works, so you both have income? If your incomes are nearly equal, I don't see what's wrong w/ splitting expenses and each spend yours how you like. If "living like a single man" means not arguing about money, then live like a single man!

His vehicle choices don't sound wise to me, but this sentence got my attention:
"When I try to talk sense into him about his spending, I’m controlling about money and my spending comes into play."

Reading your post, I can't rule out that he is trying to talk sense to you about your spending.


----------



## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

The way I read this, husband does not want you to reinvest your profits into growing your business. He wants 50 % for himself.

On the other hand, he is spending way beyond his means. Both of you may be responsible for his debts. This is FINANCIAL INFIDELITY.

His point of view will not change. Would y'all be open to financial counseling by a professional (outside third party)?

Otherwise, the tension is going to destroy your relationship if it has not already.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

SpinyNorman said:


> It sounds like he works, so you both have income? If your incomes are nearly equal, I don't see what's wrong w/ splitting expenses and each spend yours how you like. If "living like a single man" means not arguing about money, then live like a single man!
> 
> His vehicle choices don't sound wise to me, but this sentence got my attention:
> "When I try to talk sense into him about his spending, I’m controlling about money and my spending comes into play."
> ...


Not to say I’m perfect by any means. My car is 4 years old. I have no intention and no need to trade it in. Mine before that was 10 years old when I traded it in.
The spending he complains about is a hair appointment every 8 weeks ($80) and 6 meals out a year to hang out with my girlfriends.
10 years ago I did take a course that didn’t work out. It was along the lines of what I’m doing now but made no sense to give him half and pay supplies out of my half of the profits. He also made a scene every time he had to take care of the kids so I could run the business.
My financial mistakes aren’t huge credit card debt of $25000 - $30000 and buying new vehicles every two years, it’s spending $1700 on a course that I maybe made $1500 back on that I don’t use anymore and letting the lettuce go bad in the fridge because I forgot it was there.
I don’t think he shouldn’t have disposable income but this is nuts.


----------



## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

You sound stable--hearing your POV only. He sounds like he is trying to control you and justify his disparate beliefs financially. Is he afraid he will lose you if you become financially independent? You don't have to explain to us. I'm thinking if you weren't having a disagreement over this, it would be something else. 

Maybe I'm off-based as I have lived a life like this, it is no fun and insidious as it accelerates. It keeps you second-guessing as he uses half-truths and innuendo.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

If it wasn’t this, I could be decently happy in the marriage. He isn’t a drinker, drug user, gambler or physically abusive.
There is definite control issues and I wonder if this problem were solved if it would manifest itself in other ways.
Money and how he appears to others is extremely important to him. He has to have the best of everything. The latest Apple Watch, phone, vehicle etc. He will match his sanuks (shoes) to his outfit.
The reason why he wants to trade his vehicle is the one he is looking at has a bigger display screen.
I get making an error in vehicle purchase and needing to correct that, but in 15 years he has had 11 vehicles, the last 4 brand new. Longest he held on to one was 3 years 2 months. A bigger display screen isn’t an error.
He lies about his credit card use. Makes up excuses as to what he needed. He will take out cash to use.
I don’t want to be a money nazi but this affects me too. When I refused to co-sign on his last vehicle, he pouted then got on his own. 
It isn’t a team at all.
I think he likes the security of a home, a family etc. Someone to handle the day to day.
He’s very clever in making me do it all.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

I agree. That is my fear, being poor and debt ridden and working til my old age because someone needed the latest toy.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

sunsetmist said:


> The way I read this, husband does not want you to reinvest your profits into growing your business. He wants 50 % for himself.
> 
> On the other hand, he is spending way beyond his means. Both of you may be responsible for his debts. This is FINANCIAL INFIDELITY.
> 
> ...


I have to get him to counseling. Because yes this might be it. As shallow as this makes me feel, I fear the future.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

sunsetmist said:


> You sound stable--hearing your POV only. He sounds like he is trying to control you and justify his disparate beliefs financially. Is he afraid he will lose you if you become financially independent? You don't have to explain to us. I'm thinking if you weren't having a disagreement over this, it would be something else.
> 
> Maybe I'm off-based as I have lived a life like this, it is no fun and insidious as it accelerates. It keeps you second-guessing as he uses half-truths and innuendo.


That’s it exactly. I feel like I’m going nuts, like anytime I try to discuss it, it gets turned into me not being fair to him, how he works hard and deserves these things.
I wouldn’t ever make a scene over treating himself to something normal like a meal out or outfit or golf game (or something financially along those lines) but we aren’t Rockefeller’s and a new car is kind of out of our price range. I’ve suggested selling this vehicle, getting something old til debt is down to zero (car loan only) and leasing - so not such a hit every time he wants to change. 
No go because it’s not instant.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

OnFleek said:


> Not to say I’m perfect by any means. My car is 4 years old. I have no intention and no need to trade it in. Mine before that was 10 years old when I traded it in.
> The spending he complains about is a hair appointment every 8 weeks ($80) and 6 meals out a year to hang out with my girlfriends.
> 10 years ago I did take a course that didn’t work out. It was along the lines of what I’m doing now but made no sense to give him half and pay supplies out of my half of the profits. He also made a scene every time he had to take care of the kids so I could run the business.
> My financial mistakes aren’t huge credit card debt of $25000 - $30000 and buying new vehicles every two years, it’s spending $1700 on a course that I maybe made $1500 back on that I don’t use anymore and letting the lettuce go bad in the fridge because I forgot it was there.
> I don’t think he shouldn’t have disposable income but this is nuts.


Thanks for replying. That sounds like you're being pretty careful and he is not. What you would hope for is to have a calm discussion where you compare the magnitude of your "indulgences" and each be allotted some disposable income. As for lying about debts or trying to access your business funds, there is no good spin to put on that.

The income side we probably won't get to the bottom of here. We don't know how much either of you bring in. Some businesses that go on to good things eat money in the beginning, but of course some businesses were never really viable and I don't think we can tell which yours is.

I don't think it is superficial to worry about your financial future. Will he consider counselling? How about financial counselling? There are people who will do a projection for you, and maybe(just maybe) he'd listen to that person more than you. If he agrees to a plan and doesn't stick w/ it, a conventional MC would be the next step.

Sorry for being a tough audience, but I try to ask the tough questions upfront.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

OnFleek.... your H sounds exactly like my XW. I will never forget posting "even if I worked for a F100 

company, I'm only as good as my last paycheck" We had very little or no debt early on. As my jobs

increased in pay, it seemed her spending did too. One of the reasons we are no longer together.

Where does his $ go? Do YOU reap any benefits from it? 95% of the time in side businesses, any 

profits you make, you have to put it right back into the business. Most don't after awhile and that's 

why many fail. As for the controlling he claims, yeah heard that too from my XW. "So if I allowed

you to run the finances, all I see is me working myself into an early grave"

Wasn't....gonna....happen. Not a thing wrong with you feeling that way. It's obvious he spends more than

he makes..... Mention he can 1-Cut spending, start paying off debt, 2-Get another job.

I was taught you clean up your own messes when you're an adult.

Would you consider introducing him to the lectures of Dave Ramsey?


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

This kind of financial infidelity is pretty much impossible to live with. Would a threat of divorce if changes are not made have any kind of impact on him? He sounds extremely entitled and unrealistic to me, and he is very dishonest. That dishonesty is him showing a total lack of respect for you, and proof that he does not consider your marriage to be a partnership. Its all about him. 

I feel like you need to let him know that the financial hemorrhaging comes to a stop or you will be forced to end the marriage. But you have to be serious and ready to back up those words. This is not some small, trivial thing, what he is doing is not ok.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I agree, 3X. 

Never threaten an action you aren't willing to back up.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

SpinyNorman said:


> Thanks for replying. That sounds like you're being pretty careful and he is not. What you would hope for is to have a calm discussion where you compare the magnitude of your "indulgences" and each be allotted some disposable income. As for lying about debts or trying to access your business funds, there is no good spin to put on that.
> 
> The income side we probably won't get to the bottom of here. We don't know how much either of you bring in. Some businesses that go on to good things eat money in the beginning, but of course some businesses were never really viable and I don't think we can tell which yours is.
> 
> ...


I don’t mind the tough questions. Sometimes I feel like if I backed off a bit he would not have anything to prove to me by showing he can do what he wants.
I think my business is viable. I have done the growing part of it, education and supplies. I don’t have building overheard, I have a percentage room rental which allows me time to grow without dropping ton of money. I made errors at the start, but was able to sell back the equipment that didn’t work for me losing maybe 20%.
I have yearly insurance which is a big chunk and would like to invest in online marketing, but I need to finish off paying one course first. 
His spending has gone on brand new vehicles that he trades every 18 month. Prices are in the $80000-$90000 range like Escalades and Range Rovers. Everyone he dresses up with add on’s and that goes on his cards.
He used to be a functioning alcoholic (managed to hold down his job), but could pound insane amounts of booze down. 
He needs the best golf clubs, latest cell phone, brand name everything, eats out daily.
I make my lunch (health reasons and cost wise), keep vehicles forever, have a basic wardrobe, non drinker. Day care and activities for kids are a bit, but together we make over $150,000 a year.
He keeps talking about wanting to quit his job but looks at things that pay half of what he makes. I’m not supporting him when I don’t get all excited because he wants to drop his income by $39000 a year.
I know he doesn’t like his job but he’s got to get things figured out before leaving his job.
I have no interest in taking out equity from the house to have him rack things up again. That’s our only saving grace, reasonable mortgage.
What’s next, wipe out retirement savings?
Kind of got on a roll there - sorry. Just a bit more insight as to the fears.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

Chuck71 said:


> OnFleek.... your H sounds exactly like my XW. I will never forget posting "even if I worked for a F100
> 
> company, I'm only as good as my last paycheck" We had very little or no debt early on. As my jobs
> 
> ...


I have mentioned second job and he has no interest. I have tried to split the income where his mess stays his mess, like credit cards, vehicle etc, but he doesn’t like that either.
I have talked about downsizing his vehicle and today was the first time he actually entertained it.
My business has possibilities. Even as it grows, it is t a huge money suck. I don’t have a building to pay for and most of supplies and education have been covered. I have one education loan which is almost done. I have some equipment to sell where I will take maybe a 20% loss. We’re talking like $1000 worth of equipment.
It seems like when we speak of budgeting, he seems to bring out my expenses. My supplies for my business, hair appointment (every 6-8 weeks), the occasional meal out with my friends (every second month).
His constant upgrades on phones, vehicles, daily eating out, past alcoholism has no impact, according to him it’s all me.
I will try to have him look at Dave Ramsay. 
Thank you


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> This kind of financial infidelity is pretty much impossible to live with. Would a threat of divorce if changes are not made have any kind of impact on him? He sounds extremely entitled and unrealistic to me, and he is very dishonest. That dishonesty is him showing a total lack of respect for you, and proof that he does not consider your marriage to be a partnership. Its all about him.
> 
> I feel like you need to let him know that the financial hemorrhaging comes to a stop or you will be forced to end the marriage. But you have to be serious and ready to back up those words. This is not some small, trivial thing, what he is doing is not ok.


I have only thrown own the D word once and that was when he became verbally abusive in the marriage when he was battling with the bottle.
I know before I would say it, I would mean it. I don’t take those ultimatums lightly. It wouldn’t be said as a means to control him, it would be an honest conversation about what I am willing to accept.
The entitlement is real. I was off sick this week and he was on holidays. I did everything. Meals, laundry, house cleaning, caring for the kids. I am battling pneumonia and have zero energy yet he sits in his recliner and watches the same TV show at 3 different times.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> This kind of financial infidelity is pretty much impossible to live with. Would a threat of divorce if changes are not made have any kind of impact on him? He sounds extremely entitled and unrealistic to me, and he is very dishonest. That dishonesty is him showing a total lack of respect for you, and proof that he does not consider your marriage to be a partnership. Its all about him.
> 
> I feel like you need to let him know that the financial hemorrhaging comes to a stop or you will be forced to end the marriage. But you have to be serious and ready to back up those words. This is not some small, trivial thing, what he is doing is not ok.


The dishonesty actually really bothers me. The gaslighting as to how his mounting debt is justified and the sense of deserving of something because he works so hard. That’s for things like a new outfit or a meal out, maybe a golf outing... those are treats. New vehicles are ridiculous.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

The situation is not good. I was in an almost identical situation - had my own business and my EX claimed half the money but spent all of it and then some. I made plenty of money but it was NEVER enough for his high falutin. I wasn't paying attention to the money, in fact I didn't have the passwords to OUR bank account and when I asked for it he just strung me along and didn't provide for about a year. I finally did divorce him to get to keep almost $30K in credit card debt -- some was mine but most was stuff he ran up on my cards. 

*If your H won't totally separate the money and spend just what he earns, you probably will need to divorce him just to protect yourself.* At 53, having earned over $100K most years of my business owner adult life, and not being a spender myself, I have NOTHING for retirement or a house down payment, and am digging my way out of debt. 

ALSO, my Ex talked me into putting MY business in an LLC where we were partners. So even though I did 99% of the work, in his mind it is HALF his. This got really tricky when I filed for divorce. If you started the business after marriage it probably IS half his and if you do divorce you may have to buy him out of his half. :-( In which case, the faster you file for divorce before it becomes more valuable, the better. But talk to a lawyer.

*I'm confused though -- you say in one part your H sits at home watching re-runs all day while you work, but then later you say "He thinks that because he works he should get..."

Is he working or not? Does he participate in the business? *BTW money that goes back into the business for training and improvements is NOT "profit" that he should get part of, it's part of the cost of doing business.

You are spot on about the manipulation behind it. Bottom line - I could NEVER spend all of someone else's money, even if they offered. And it doesn't matter WHAT his "intentions" were, he was able to let me be completely vulnerable financially for his vanity purchases. That is not love or a man protecting his wife. That is controlling and using someone. 

*I don't know what the rest of your marriage is like but your husband has a spending problem and he does not have YOUR best interests in mind. He wants what he wants and you're a means to get it.*

My ex was also very manipulative in shaming me if I ever suggested I should have more than half the business because we were married and what was mine was ours, unless I was a greedy selfish person. I couldn't say out loud "But I'm doing all the work. This is MY business."



OnFleek said:


> Hi,
> I’m a long time lurker, but this situation is causing high stress.
> About 3 years ago I started my own part time business. It is still in the growing stages. The first two years I was re-investing my profits into product and training.
> My husband thought my profits should be split 50/50 with him. It’s not that I don’t necessarily want to share with him, but everything I have at this point is going back in to the business.
> ...


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

OnFleek said:


> I have mentioned second job and he has no interest. I have tried to split the income where his mess stays his mess, like credit cards, vehicle etc, but he doesn’t like that either.
> I have talked about downsizing his vehicle and today was the first time he actually entertained it.
> My business has possibilities. Even as it grows, it is t a huge money suck. I don’t have a building to pay for and most of supplies and education have been covered. I have one education loan which is almost done. I have some equipment to sell where I will take maybe a 20% loss. We’re talking like $1000 worth of equipment.
> It seems like when we speak of budgeting, he seems to bring out my expenses. My supplies for my business, hair appointment (every 6-8 weeks), the occasional meal out with my friends (every second month).
> ...


He must work for a travel company because he is so trying to send you on a "guilt trip." 

If that's the way he wants to be........ his bills are his, yours are yours. Separate accounts.....

You're trying to build a business while he throws dollars at "wants" not "needs"

But I'm the rare type who has yet to own a smartphone, rarely eats out, has vehicle paid for since 2009.

Dave Ramsey has his own website. You can DL podcasts or check him out on you-tube


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I really wonder how you've stayed this long.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

You might want to see an IC to figure out what your position is(leave, ultimatum, request changes, etc). Then, your IC could recommend the next step, financial planner or joint counselling. The joint counsellor could point out stuff like "yes, her discretionaries look like $180/month, but yours look like $1800/month."(I'm making the #s up, she wouldn't be)


----------



## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Openminded said:


> I really wonder how you've stayed this long.




Or why. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

WorkingWife said:


> The situation is not good. I was in an almost identical situation - had my own business and my EX claimed half the money but spent all of it and then some. I made plenty of money but it was NEVER enough for his high falutin. I wasn't paying attention to the money, in fact I didn't have the passwords to OUR bank account and when I asked for it he just strung me along and didn't provide for about a year. I finally did divorce him to get to keep almost $30K in credit card debt -- some was mine but most was stuff he ran up on my cards.
> 
> *If your H won't totally separate the money and spend just what he earns, you probably will need to divorce him just to protect yourself.* At 53, having earned over $100K most years of my business owner adult life, and not being a spender myself, I have NOTHING for retirement or a house down payment, and am digging my way out of debt.
> 
> ...


He does work, but shift so he gets big blocks of time off. That’s why he is often able to stare at TV all day.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Or why.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This has spiralled in past few years. The vehicles went form normal to extravagant and it’s kind of the frog in boiling water analogy.
He didn’t start out this way and it was manageable til now I feel we are crisis mode.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

OnFleek said:


> He does work, but shift so he gets big blocks of time off. That’s why he is often able to stare at TV all day.


Does he work full time? Does he bring in half the money? Or is your business becoming much more profitable than his job and his appetite for spending is outgrowing it?

If he does work full time, I personally would not begrudge him laying around watching TV all day -- unless he's getting fat and unhealthy and expecting you to do all the cooking and cleaning, etc. But that's between you two.

What happened with my ex and me is that my business was doing really well and he just felt like "there will always be more money" and he spent beyond what we could afford, thinking he'd save later, pay it off later, etc. For 20 years, "later" never came. No matter how much I brought in, he would always spend more. 

Depending on your business structure it's really hard to budget too because the money doesn't come in steadily at the same amount every month.

I saw where you say this has been a frog in boiling water thing. If he wasn't always this way, maybe he can be snapped out of it. Are you able to talk with him seriously? It sounds like he's being manipulative or badly spoiled at the least by wanting half the money from your business instead of you reinvesting it in the business. At the very least it needs to be a joint decision over how much of the business PROFITS the two of you spend. Can he be reasoned with or do you feel he's just using you at this point?


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

OnFleek said:


> Hi,
> 
> I found out this week that he tried to get access code to my business card. He thinks because there is room on there, I have discretionary money available and he doesn’t.


I forgot about this part. That is downright scary.

How is your marriage aside from his one-man spending spree? Do you have children together? Do you work a full time job on TOP of your part time business?


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> I think you need to learn something.
> In a worse case scenario anything in your home can be seized to repay your husbands debts unless you can prove conclusively that they are solely owned and paid for by you. I’m talking about household goods, tv’s, laptops, tablets ,stereo systems, even kitchen appliances. If you don’t have a receipt for these items in just your name then they can be seized to pay off any debt your husband has.
> In general unless the credit card debt stems from a jointly owned account the creditors only go after the person named on the credit card but this isn’t always the case especially if it’s a large debt.
> Do you realize that you could lose your home because of his decision making?
> ...


Well, you just scared *me *straight! That is so scary.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

OnFleek said:


> If it wasn’t this, I could be decently happy in the marriage. He isn’t a drinker, drug user, gambler or physically abusive.
> There is definite *control issues *and I wonder if this problem were solved if it would manifest itself in other ways.
> *Money and how he appears to others is extremely important to him. He has to have the best of everything. * The latest Apple Watch, phone, vehicle etc. He will match his sanuks (shoes) to his outfit.
> The reason why he wants to trade his vehicle is th*e one he is looking at has a bigger display screen.*
> ...


I strongly you to encourage you to start reading up on NARCISSISTS on the internet. They are selfish, controlling, and their lives are ruled by appearances.

They are also nearly impossible to have a good relationship with because deep down they love only themselves and they can't be genuine.

The traits I bolded scream narcissist to me. However there are some other traits they also usually have that you didn't mention (yet). But please read up on the topic and see what you think.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

OnFleek said:


> That’s it exactly. *I feel like I’m going nuts, like anytime I try to discuss it, it gets turned into me not being fair to him, *how he works hard and deserves these things.
> I wouldn’t ever make a scene over treating himself to something normal like a meal out or outfit or golf game (or something financially along those lines) but we aren’t Rockefeller’s and a new car is kind of out of our price range. I’ve suggested selling this vehicle, getting something old til debt is down to zero (car loan only) and leasing - so not such a hit every time he wants to change.
> No go because it’s not instant.


When you are done reading up on narcissists, read up on "Gas lighting." 

I'm starting to think you have a serious problem on your hands. Hopefully the problem is just that he is selfish and immature and will come around if he has no choice. You may have to be sincerely ready to walk though to get him to pay attention. If he is narcissist, you don't want to keep him if you can avoid it.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

OnFleek said:


> I have only thrown own the D word once and that was when he became verbally abusive in the marriage when he was battling with the bottle.
> I know before I would say it, I would mean it. I don’t take those ultimatums lightly. It wouldn’t be said as a means to control him, it would be an honest conversation about what I am willing to accept.


Exactly. When you try to manipulate someone that way they see through it and it really damages the marriage to have your spouse casually toss around the D word. However, when you realize: I WILL NOT continue to live like this, because it's just a fact, *sometimes *real changes do occur. I've seen people on here say "You must be willing to lose your marriage if you want to save it." Unfortunately, by the time a woman gets to that point it's often too late and she can't get her love back even if the guy DOES change.




OnFleek said:


> The entitlement is real. I was off sick this week and he was on holidays. I did everything. Meals, laundry, house cleaning, caring for the kids. I am battling pneumonia and have zero energy yet he sits in his recliner and watches the same TV show at 3 different times.


If he doesn't wake up, I have a feeling that "D" word is going to be coming from you and it won't be an attempt at manipulation. Do you know if he's drinking again? (Sorry if I missed that in the thread.)

You might look into the information on Marriagebuilders.com, they have a really good program for helping marriages. If you could get him to do it with you. (Which doesn't sound too likely) I started following it with my EX and it really was helping our marriage. Unfortunately, I decided to divorce regardless to protect myself from him bankrupting us further. A really good book to read from the marriagebuilders.com people is "Love Busters" it's about the things people do instinctively that kill love. We ALL do them, but your H seems extra good at some of them.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Yeah....trying to get the code to your account is telling. That shows he has no limits in his quest for cash.

Why didn't he just ask you for it? Or ask if he could have a couple hundred for now?

I again want to relate to when me and the XW were near the end. She had a dozen CCs, I did the 

finances and juggled them (with her money). When DDay came, I stopped doing her finances.

One by one they started calling the house. One by one I gave them her cell #.

She tried to pull all the $ out of our account, I'd already closed it. She tried to clean out my

account at another bank but since it required both signatures for withdrawal, she was SoL.

Then I received a hate filled message about me stealing her CC info. All I had was the email and

password. She already was getting NSF charges right and left but exclaimed she wanted to pay 

her CC bills LOL..... I found it funny though anytime she thought she might have $7.21 available 

credit on a card, she sure as crap knew how to call their 800 number. I didn't respond to her tirade.

It would not have mattered what I would have said, she was devolving and I knew it.

Reason I say this is..... this may very well be happening to you in the near future.

Sitting him down and having a very frank discussion about finance is a must. You or he may think it

is rocking the boat. But if something isn't addressed, the boat will be sinking before you know

it and it usually spirals out of control thereafter....


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

WorkingWife said:


> I forgot about this part. That is downright scary.
> 
> How is your marriage aside from his one-man spending spree? Do you have children together? Do you work a full time job on TOP of your part time business?


I work full time plus my side job. My side job basically makes $125 an hour clear but I only have time for maybe 3-4 hours a week. And that is the demand as well. I couldn’t work full time at it if I wanted to.
We have 2 kids together. The marriage is hit and miss. He is faithful. He quit drinking. He can be verbally abusive and controlling. He also can be the biggest supporter in my corner. 
While I feel protected, it seems like it’s more for show so all friends will say, ‘is she ever lucky, boy does he stick up for her.’
I have a life threatening medical condition that I manage on my own. His contribution is ‘they need to figure this out!!!’ This makes me feel like he is hoping this stops affecting him and him needing to make allowances to accommodate me vs him being concerned that this is serious.
It’s not an issue when he gets me to mow the lawn but it’s an issue if I want a meal with friends if that makes sense.
It’s like a control tactic. If I want an outing with friends (no drinking, no dancing nothing), it’s thrown in my face that I need to take care of me but if it’s mowing lawn, there is no issue that this is too much for me.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

WorkingWife said:


> I strongly you to encourage you to start reading up on NARCISSISTS on the internet. They are selfish, controlling, and their lives are ruled by appearances.
> 
> They are also nearly impossible to have a good relationship with because deep down they love only themselves and they can't be genuine.
> 
> The traits I bolded scream narcissist to me. However there are some other traits they also usually have that you didn't mention (yet). But please read up on the topic and see what you think.


Holy crap I answered you before reading this and there are even more flags!!


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

Chuck71 said:


> Yeah....trying to get the code to your account is telling. That shows he has no limits in his quest for cash.
> 
> Why didn't he just ask you for it? Or ask if he could have a couple hundred for now?
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your history and I think you may be correct.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

WorkingWife said:


> Exactly. When you try to manipulate someone that way they see through it and it really damages the marriage to have your spouse casually toss around the D word. However, when you realize: I WILL NOT continue to live like this, because it's just a fact, *sometimes *real changes do occur. I've seen people on here say "You must be willing to lose your marriage if you want to save it." Unfortunately, by the time a woman gets to that point it's often too late and she can't get her love back even if the guy DOES change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He for sure isn’t drinking again. As much as he tried to reign me in his needs are different than mine.
I need my friends (like a respectable outing 6-7 times a year) but he doesn’t. He acts superior like all he needs is his family. I told him our kids are soon entering the age where friends are high on list and we need friends and hobbies so we aren’t lost.
I have invited him out to outings and he always backs down. A weekend away for dance competition a few hours away, a comedy night with friends..... he always ditches me. 
I swear most people probably think I’m a single mom because he backs out of all kid activities.
Yet brainwashes them. Dad is good, dad loves us, dad is best dad ever. They repeat like robots. I don’t really bring it up, but his loud voice and high standards cause a lot of tears. They are too young to understand and I don’t want them confused or in the middle so I don’t challenge their practiced commentary.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

OnFleek said:


> Holy crap I answered you before reading this and there are even more flags!!


I'm sorry to hear that but he sure sounds like a narcissist. In more things you said too like how he is in your corner but it almost feels like a performance for friends. 

Or how he'll let you mow the lawn but going out with friends is "too much" for his fragile flower.

One other thing to consider -- you already have a life threatening illness. STRESS KILLS. LITERALLY. Are you constantly feeling stressed because of his spending and treatment of you? Don't let him shorten your life because you don't want to rock the boat. 

I just went to look up some YouTube videos on "can a narcissist really love you" and stumbled on this one. I believe my ex was a narcissist and half way through this I felt I might vomit because it rang so true. The twisted thing is I still don't think HE had any idea he was off and he thought he was a genuinely good guy:





This guy was interesting too -- I only watched the first half because he discusses 2 types of narcissist love and my ex was definitely type 1 (type 2 is very "drama" oriented)


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

A narcissist will swear they love you and it's possible they might even believe that but the truth is they only really love themselves. Life is all about them. Everyone else is there because of their benefit to them. I spent decades with a narcissist and it's not a life I recommend. 

Your husband is unlikely to change because he doesn't see himself as the problem. Can you spend the rest of your life this way?


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Openminded said:


> A narcissist will swear they love you and it's possible they might even believe that but the truth is they only really love themselves. Life is all about them. Everyone else is there because of their benefit to them. I spent decades with a narcissist and it's not a life I recommend.
> 
> Your husband is unlikely to change because he doesn't see himself as the problem. Can you spend the rest of your life this way?


Exactly, that was what tripped me up the most -- my ex did not know he was the problem, and in his mind he WAS a good guy who loved me. But even before I knew what narcissism was, I remember saying "You don't love ME. You love that I am here. You love that I make money. You love that I am good to you. You love what I do for you. But you don't love ME."

Still the fact that he was so sincerely a good person in his own mind made it much harder for me to break away because he would be so HURT and WOUNDED and BETRAYED.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> Exactly, that was what tripped me up the most -- my ex did not know he was the problem, and in his mind he WAS a good guy who loved me. But even before I knew what narcissism was, I remember saying "You don't love ME. You love that I am here. You love that I make money. You love that I am good to you. You love what I do for you. But you don't love ME."
> 
> Still the fact that he was so sincerely a good person in his own mind made it much harder for me to break away because he would be so HURT and WOUNDED and BETRAYED.


I totally agree. 

They love what you can do for them. My ex-husband (a cheater) fought the divorce because he didn't want to lose me -- he claimed he loved me so much -- but the truth was he really wanted to continue all the benefits of having me in his life. They never get it.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

I do not feel loved by him. I don’t feel cared for by him.
I think my role is to take care of the kids, bring in the money, take care of the house, take care of him.
I also think that he feels he is a great person and treats me like a queen.
I think he feels like he is a great dad. I’ve become
somewhat numb to him because as everyone shares their wisdom, more flags are flying.
If I am not working, I am with the kids or home. I have 6-7 nights out with my married friends. We go to a crafts night or for a meal. We are always home by 10pm. I was at a crafts night recently. When we got together, we hadn’t seen each other in months. I had my phone in my purse and didn’t check it for about an hour after I got there. 
Well when I opened it, he asked some dumb question like why I didn’t bring my crafting supplies (it was supplied), then went on and on that I had better not be cheating on him.
I was at my friends - 15 blocks away, parked in front of her house. And I get accused backhandedly of cheating.
I will watch these videos. I have a feeling they will make me feel sick.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

My wife and I are totally different in our approach to money, and the only way we can coexist is to clearly agree who is responsible for what bills and have our own accounts. I am a saver, she is not. So I understand how you feel. 

Having said that.....

Money is for spending. There is nothing immoral about wanting good things if you can pay for them. It’s not how you are, and it’s not how I am, but it’s not wrong. It would be more wrong if we went to our grave with a huge pile of unused cash. 

In your shoes I would draw firm lines and stick to them. And his attempt to access your accounts would be a huge deal to me, but if he wants a new car and he works and earns the money, that’s his right. I don’t see why you should get veto over his spending of his money.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

OnFleek said:


> I do not feel loved by him. I don’t feel cared for by him.
> I think my role is to take care of the kids, bring in the money, take care of the house, take care of him.
> I also think that he feels he is a great person and treats me like a queen.
> I think he feels like he is a great dad. I’ve become
> ...


I would confront these relationship issues, but be wary of conflating them with the finances. When you’re having hard times it can be easy to overly focus on the negatives.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

And realize.....if you are doing 80% of the work at home and he 20%, of course he enjoys that. Tell him you

are not okay with that. Tell him how you want him to help you out. If these issues have not been 

addressed they can not be known issues yet. If you have told him before and it fell on deaf ears, make

sure this time it is paramount to listen and discuss. It's like the employee at X and O Sales....

He's been there a good while but doesn't cover his job duties. Management has talked to him

numerous times. It's at the point, you improve your job performance or you're gone.

If not....he will do just as he has knowing he can get by with it because the company will not fire him.

Bu also be aware....he may bring up things that he has held in. Listen before reacting.

Had my XW agreed to MC the night of D-Day, I'm sure we both would have brought up things

the other was not aware of. That happens when both parties begin to shut down.


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

Wazza said:


> My wife and I are totally different in our approach to money, and the only way we can coexist is to clearly agree who is responsible for what bills and have our own accounts. I am a saver, she is not. So I understand how you feel.
> 
> Having said that.....
> 
> ...


I truly don’t want veto over his spending. If we weren’t struggling financially, I wouldn’t care. He is putting us in a dangerous financial situation. Like borrowing from one credit card to pay the other.
I am not a big saver by any means. 
I hate having to saying anything but we can’t take. $25000 financial hit every year because the touch screen is bigger in vehicle A vs Vehicle B. 
When it is a struggle to pay bills - what does someone do? I don’t ask of him anything I don’t do myself.
It isn’t a control issue on my part - more of a survival issue.


----------



## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Perhaps leasing a vehicle instead of buying would be a better option for him?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OnFleek (Jun 3, 2018)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Perhaps leasing a vehicle instead of buying would be a better option for him?


That’s exactly what I told him. Sell his existing vehicle, pay off what’s left owing (he owes more than it’s worth and then lease. He then could change whenever he wants. He doesn’t want to take the time to unravel the financial mess to get to that point.

It’s like he sees the light and agrees and the next day says the dealership called and they are having a ‘one day sale’. He has gone to look and salesmen call him constantly.

I truly want him to be happy without ruining us. He doesn’t seem to care.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

When you first posted your story, I figured you guys were really high rollers if he was spending that much on cars. I'm shocked when you said it's about $150k. That's good money, but it's not good enough to be trading up $80k cars every couple of years. 

If you want this marriage to work, you'll need to take 100% control of the finances. All the money goes into your bank account and he gets an allowance for his fun stuff. You'll need to put a credit lock on his account where only you have the password. Of course he's not going to like that, but you need to decide what your future is going to be like. If you do nothing, you could lose everything and go bankrupt. His spending is out of control. He's behaving like an alcoholic but with money. You mentioned you worry how he will express this core issue if the money is constrained, and I think you are right about that. If he can't have endless money, he'll probably need something else to plunge himself into. But regardless, if you control the money, at least he won't bankrupt the family.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Something to ponder.... he can easily so no to you.... but not a salesperson.

He needs help...


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

OnFleek said:


> I truly don’t want veto over his spending. If we weren’t struggling financially, I wouldn’t care. He is putting us in a dangerous financial situation. Like borrowing from one credit card to pay the other.


Juggling credit cards just makes the problem worse. Cash advances pile on the fees and interest charges. He's out of control and needs to be stopped. You need to protect your kids and yourself.

One way to structure things so you don't have to veto his spending is to setup strict guidelines about money. For example, enforce all these rules:

- Pay off credit cards
- Don't carry a balance on credit cards
- Max contribution to 401k
- X% contribution to kids college fund
- X% to savings in things like CDs where he can't pull money whenever

Force him to be responsible about money. Whatever is left over he can spend how he likes. Right now he is looking at credit like an endless stream of free money. Instead, he should be financially responsible first and just be frivolous with whatever little is left over. 

You might want to go to a lawyer and get some sort of post-nup drafted up that makes all this very clear. That way you wouldn't have to drop the divorce hammer right away. Basically, you lay it out that either he is responsible with money or he will suffer certain penalties. You should also spell out that in a divorce he would take on all of his own debt, not seek alimony from you, etc. Currently, all his debt is shared. If you divorced today, you'd take on half of his car loan, CC debt, etc. You need to protect yourself from being dragged down.


----------

