# Just ended affair. Finding it hard to cope.



## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Just ended a 1 year affair. Wife does not know.

My head is spinning. The "fog" has gone into overdrive. I can't stop thinking about the OW, thinking she is the woman of my dreams.

I find myself distancing from my wife. Her attempts at affection (touching etc.) make me cringe. Thoughts of getting a divorce are frequent.

Trying hard to keep up NC. Don't know if I can.

Help!


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm going to pray for this thread.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

Your brain is in love drug withdrawal. These drugs are like crack... very addictive and hard to shake loose from.

Come clean with your wife and become 100% transparent with her. It will still be tough, but there can be no secrets of this type if you want a great long lasting marriage.


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

Targ said:


> I find myself distancing from my wife. Her attempts at affection (touching etc.) make me cringe. Thoughts of getting a divorce are frequent.


I find this happening to me too, that would be because she is having sex with POSOM.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> I'm going to pray for this thread.


I'm not going to invest in this thread.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Does your mistress know that you are married?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Targ,

First off, the following is only my opinion based on my own experiences from an EA so they are more about my situation than they are about yours. Take what advice you can from it and discard the rest.

*You are not a bad person*

First off, you are not a bad person. As you get further into your process of healing, you're likely to experience a lot of guilt and some here are going to attack that guilt because they want to hurt you. Their anger at you is about them, not you. Forgive them their anger and judgement. You are not a bad person.

*Maintaining no contact*

Doing so is a choice and the only person that bears responsibility for violating that choice is you. I once scoffed at the NC letter but now that I think on it, it's a good idea; it adds an air of finality to it, reinforcing your decision in your mind. YMMV. Pre-script your responses to her attempts to contact you; something like, "I'm really sorry but I have made my decision; I am staying with my wife. Therefore, we have nothing to talk about". Don't deviate from the script or go outside of the script because she might try to initiate discussion on other topics. Don't take the bait... and it is bait... to get you talking to her.

Do you love your wife? Are there kids involved? Have you got a house, a car? All of these things will disappear if you get a divorce, along with a sizable portion of your pay. Remember these very selfish thoughts constantly too. You've had your 'fun', now you are paying the price for it.

You CAN maintain NC if you remind yourself of the reasons that you went NC in the first place. I'm sure that your OW is a great girl but you've made your choice; stick to it.

*Confess to your wife?*

I'm not going to tell you whether or not confessing to your W is the right thing or not; that's up to you. Some professionals say that it's better for the relationship to keep it a secret, if you can. But doing so is a life long commitment and I doubt that most people can get through the times that you're going to go through and keep it up.

Her personality is going to determine how she takes the news of your affair and you are more likely to know which way she'll go. What if she decides that she wants a divorce? Which ever way she goes, the news will devastate her.

That's the chance you take. Having said that, if she is not the bitter/angry type then the two of you might be able to help each other through the resulting pain and, in some time with some counseling, you might end up closer for it, having learned the lesson and fixed the behaviors that got you there in the first place.

But consider this; she's not stupid. She already knows that you've been having an affair... she's just denying it to herself to save her own sanity.

My confession to my W helped me because it meant that we could be honest with each other about it. It helped me heal but I did so much damage to her. But if I could do it again, I would still tell her. But I would have handled some things so differently. I would have got IC first, then told her and gotten her into IC and then both of us into MC. We went straight for MC and the truth is that we weren't ready for that yet. Again, YMMV.

*GET COUNSELING!!!*

I can't stress this enough. Find an IC and tell them what you want out of the sessions and work toward that goal. The counselor will help you work through the myriad of emotions in your mind in a non-threatening atmosphere. You might not get anything out of counseling at first but the discussions that you have are going to stick with you for years to come. Counseling is a good investment for both near and long term.

And find someone to talk to. The more you bottle stuff up inside, the worse it's going to be for you. Get it out.

*Why did you cheat?*

Figure this one out. If you don't, you will be here again. What did you need that you weren't getting from your wife? Enough attention? Your ego was hurt? Revenge? 

TAM's mantra is that cheating is a vile, evil choice to hurt someone. I don't agree that it's evil but I do agree that there comes a point when you made a choice to cheat (though it took me a while to get there)

Fix "you". I wrote down all of the reasons that I perceived (TAM calls them rationalizations) and asked myself, "Really? Are you sure? Yes? No, I don't believe you; is this true? Okay, fine, then how did I contribute to the problem? How did I fail to live up to my end of the bargain" I think that you'll find this process painful [if you are honest with yourself] but rewarding.

The most important concept that I took away from counseling is, "Small changes in our perception can have big changes in our relationships. So how can I change my perception?" Question yourself and your 'motives'.

*Relating to your wife*

You are going to really miss your OW for a year or maybe longer... you are in for a very long and painful ride and I feel your pain. Constantly remind yourself, "I love my wife, I love my wife".

After my EA ended, there were times when I was curled up on the kitchen floor sobbing (when I thought that my W was sleeping in bed but was, in fact, at the top of the stairs listening to me, crying). There were times when I lashed out at my W in anger for no reason.

Guard yourself against these things because everything you say to her is going to be remembered for the rest of your life together. Everything. And if you haven't told her about the A, she won't "know" why you are so angry at her (even though she already knows).

Why does touching your wife make you cringe? You really need to fix that because physical intimacy is what is going to help you reconnect. Take her out for a walk and hold hands (squeeze it lovingly) and smile at her, even if you have to fake it. Play a game together, talk about your day; ask her about hers. Do whatever you can to re-engage intellectually and emotionally. And have sex with her; worry about her pleasure instead of yours.

Good luck mate, you're in for a really crappy ride, but it does pass. It has taken me over a year to get over mine and I had the loving support of my stbxw (which actually made me feel even worse; because I went on a self destructive streak that lasted nigh on six months; heavy drinking, flirting with other women and one very close call with a bridge at 120mph (though the latter was more because of TAM feeding my guilt - some of the people here are very very very destructive]).

Get counseling.

Good luck.


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

Targ, your previous post are quite vague concerning the general nature of your marriage. i here about flaws and the various shortcomings of your wife, yet there are no specifics. sounds like blameshifting to me. 

i also read that you haven't admitted to the affair yet. why? this is exactly why you find yourself within this so-called "fog." you haven't felt any of the effects an affair has on a relationship. you haven't experienced the hurt, anger, and frustration of your BS yet. that's why you're currently pining for your AP.....you're still in fantasy land. 

once you are admit to this horrendous behavior and experience the fallout.....belive me, you'll start to snap out of it. 

you're treating this as an "exit" affair, right now. in your mind- you're DONE. you don't want to make an effort because of all the resentment you have for your wife due to these alleged shortcomings. 

be a man! admit to your affair, and let the chips fall where they may. if you still feel you want out, then divorce.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

The very first thing you have to do is stop thinking through the rose colored glasses of the affair and be perfectly honest with yourself for a minute. What do you want? Don't say you don't know. I've been there myself, if you're honest with yourself, if you work at it - you know. Once you accept what you really want you simply have to have the courage of your convictions - simple but very hard. 

So what do you want?

Then we can help with the best course of action(s).


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## radolmoniqe (Dec 21, 2012)

It will still be tough, but there can be no secrets of this type if you want a great long lasting marriage.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks to everyone that responded.



sigma1299 said:


> The very first thing you have to do is stop thinking through the rose colored glasses of the affair and be perfectly honest with yourself for a minute. What do you want? Don't say you don't know. I've been there myself, if you're honest with yourself, if you work at it - you know. Once you accept what you really want you simply have to have the courage of your convictions - simple but very hard.
> 
> So what do you want?
> 
> Then we can help with the best course of action(s).


What do I want? Right now my mind is telling me 100% that I want to be with the OW.

But apparently, from reading this forum, that's only because my mind is in the "fog" and she's not really all she's cracked up to be i.e. she's just a "fantasy".

How can I tell if what I want is *really *want I want?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Targ said:


> Thanks to everyone that responded.
> 
> 
> What do I want? Right now my mind is telling me 100% that I want to be with the OW.
> ...


I can't answer that for you. Wait, yes I can......

Do you really want to be with a woman that has no problem destroying another woman's family and marriage? 

Do you really believe you could make a long term go in a relationship that is based on lies, deceit, and adultery? 

Do you really think you could beat the odds of 3% success in marriages that began as adultery partners? 

Do you really believe she hasn't done this to another woman's husband besides you? 

Do you really think you could trust this woman to tell you the truth of where she's been when you haven't seen or heard from her for hours...even if she was telling the truth?

As I said, I can't tell you what you want, but I sure as hell can tell you what you'll get.

Shall I keep going? I can go all night.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

3putt said:


> Do you really think you could beat the odds of 3% success in marriages that began as adultery partners?


And what if I'm willing to take that chance? What if my attitude is "it's better to try than to die wondering?" What if I don't really care if I end up living the rest of my days alone if this fails?

Yes, I'm very aware it's my foggy mind talking. But still, what do you think?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Targ said:


> And what if I'm willing to take that chance? What if my attitude is "it's better to try than to die wondering?" What if I don't really care if I end up living the rest of my days alone if this fails?
> 
> Yes, I'm very aware it's my foggy mind talking. But still, what do you think?


Damn right your mind is foggy as hell, otherwise you wouldn't be asking me what I think as I believe I've already laid out facts that will certainly doom your marriage, your affair and your reputation if you continue down this path.

I have an idea; why don't you talk to your _wife_ and ask her what _she_ thinks? She just might do you a favor and make up your mind for you.

And if you think I'm being snarky, I assure you, I'm not. Dead serious.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Were you this averse to your wife's touch, etc. before you broke things off with the OW?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Targ said:


> And what if I'm willing to take that chance? *What if my attitude is "it's better to try than to die wondering?" What if I don't really care if I end up living the rest of my days alone if this fails?*
> 
> Yes, I'm very aware it's my foggy mind talking. But still, what do you think?


Please, please, please take that chance! You deserve all the happiness you're going to find with this wonderful girl you've been cheating with. Make an honest woman out of her for chrisst sake!


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Were you this averse to your wife's touch, etc. before you broke things off with the OW?


Yes, and it got worse towards the end. I am wondering/hoping this will change now that I have ended it and that I will eventually reconnect with my wife. But will it happen? Right now, I'm really struggling.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Targ said:


> Yes, and it got worse towards the end. I am wondering/hoping this will change now that I have ended it and that I will eventually reconnect with my wife. But will it happen? Right now, I'm really struggling.


It got worse at the end because all the energies you should have be expending on your wife and family were being spent on another woman. If you gave your wife the same amount of attention and affection you gave your AP, you probably wouldn't be in this predicament to begin with.

And, no, it won't happen until you really end it, and that is done by telling your BW. But you won't do that will you? Because you know when you do that, it really _will_ be the end.

Right?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

One more thing. I noticed out of all the reasons I gave you for failure with your AP, you latched on to the one _tiny_ shred of success that was in there; that meager little 3% success rate.

I find this very, very telling. Don't you?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Why did you end it with the OW? What was the impetus? Do you have children? How long have you been married?


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## committedwife (Dec 12, 2011)

Targ said:


> Just ended a 1 year affair. Wife does not know.
> 
> My head is spinning. The "fog" has gone into overdrive. I can't stop thinking about the OW, thinking she is the woman of my dreams.
> 
> ...


Why did you end it? Who is the OW? Tell us more, so we can help you. How long have you been married? Any kids?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Targ said:


> Yes, and it got worse towards the end. I am wondering/hoping this will change now that I have ended it and that I will eventually reconnect with my wife. But will it happen? Right now, I'm really struggling.


So this reaction to your W has been happening for a while. It seems implausible that your W hasn't noticed. Has she said anything to you? I'm sorry I keep asking questions, but patterns emerge with more information.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Counselling. And honesty.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The first thing you need to do is tell your wife. Be honest. That is as much for yourself as for your wife. Unless you like being a lying cheat.

THEN, make a decision on what you want to do. Maybe your wife will help you with that decision after you man up and tell her the truth.

Good luck.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Targ said:


> Yes, and it got worse towards the end. I am wondering/hoping this will change now that I have ended it and that I will eventually reconnect with my wife. But will it happen? Right now, I'm really struggling.


Okay, I see you're not good with replying in a timely fashion to establish some helpful dialogue, so I want to pose a question to you that I actually don't want an immediate response to. I really want you to think long and hard about this before responding. 

It's a two part question:

1) How and why did you fall in love with and marry your wife?

2) Were things really, and I mean _*really*_ that bad, or is it possible you're simply rewriting your marital history in your mind to justify your current behavior?

Please......think about it, and be honest with not only us, but yourself when you respond.


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

Targ said:


> And what if I'm willing to take that chance? What if my attitude is "it's better to try than to die wondering?" What if I don't really care if I end up living the rest of my days alone if this fails?
> 
> Yes, I'm very aware it's my foggy mind talking. But still, what do you think?


Whatever problem is plaguing you will not be healed by this. This is nothing but the scratching of an itch. If you go off with this woman one day your feeli.gs will fade for her as they did for your wife. And who will you go to then? Do you intend to live and look young forever?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Targ said:


> And what if I'm willing to take that chance? What if my attitude is "it's better to try than to die wondering?" What if I don't really care if I end up living the rest of my days alone if this fails?
> 
> Yes, I'm very aware it's my foggy mind talking. But still, what do you think?


Please educate yourself on a tiny hormone called Dopamine. You are addicted to dopamine. It's not the OW you are addicted to, it's the feelings she is giving you. This is dopamine!! 
Meth addicts are not addicted to meth. They are addicted to dopamine. You need to realize the OW is giving you your fix. 

After about 6 months of dating and being in a normal relationship with this person your dopamine levels will start to diminish. The Infatuation stage will be over. You won't get the same rush of intense feeling because the dopamine will be desensitized. That's why most relationships don't last very long. The true test of long term love is from a hormone called oxytocin (bonding hormone). 

So really, you are taking a gamble to see if long term relationship is possible with the OW. 

Treat this like an addiction to heroin. Your brain wants you to get one more fix, no matter the outcome.


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Targ

Please read this. I hope it will educate you on why you are feeling this way. 

Your Brain On Sex | Reuniting


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

If you don't have honesty, you don't really have anything do you?

Your marriage is already dead, you are just withholding your W from the knowledge so that she can make the decision for herself what kind of life and relationship to you she would have.

If you did reveal the truth to her, I doubt you have remorse based on the fact you haven't admitted you have made a mistake or wrong choice, you are in love with your AP... so I doubt there is going to be any rebuilding your marriage from the ashes. So please do the least dishonorable thing you have left and divorce your W so she can get on with the hurt and the healing and live a meaningful life again.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. I'll try to get through them slowly.



3putt said:


> It got worse at the end because all the energies you should have be expending on your wife and family were being spent on another woman. If you gave your wife the same amount of attention and affection you gave your AP, you probably wouldn't be in this predicament to begin with.
> 
> And, no, it won't happen until you really end it, and that is done by telling your BW. But you won't do that will you? Because you know when you do that, it really _will_ be the end.
> 
> Right?


Yes, you're probably right. It's either the end or divorce.



3putt said:


> One more thing. I noticed out of all the reasons I gave you for failure with your AP, you latched on to the one _tiny_ shred of success that was in there; that meager little 3% success rate.
> 
> I find this very, very telling. Don't you?


I already admitted I was deep in the fog. That's why I'm here!



alte Dame said:


> Why did you end it with the OW? What was the impetus?





committedwife said:


> Why did you end it? Who is the OW? Tell us more, so we can help you.


I have no idea what the OW wants. She always refers to our time together as "having fun" but avoids any talk of anything more than that. I don't think I want to continue with this if it's not going anywhere. I've had as much "fun" with her as I'm going to get. If she wants something more (like maybe something remotely resembling an actual relationship), I might consider continuing. Yeah, sorry, that's probably not what you wanted to hear on this board. Just being honest.

*Fog talk alert!!!*. Having said that, she's the kind of woman I used to dream about for pretty much all my life. Imagine growing up having a crush on a certain type of woman (looks, personality, everything), then all of a sudden, the prototype of this woman walks into your life and actually starts enjoying "having fun" with you. I hope you can understand why it's so hard to let go!



alte Dame said:


> Do you have children? How long have you been married?





committedwife said:


> How long have you been married? Any kids?


No kids. About 9 years.



alte Dame said:


> So this reaction to your W has been happening for a while. It seems implausible that your W hasn't noticed. Has she said anything to you? I'm sorry I keep asking questions, but patterns emerge with more information.


Yes, of course she has noticed and gotten upset. We have almost separated a few times already but seem to find our way back to each other each time. Maybe I should have just stood my ground and gotten the separation over and done with. Instead, here I am stuck in a state of ambivalence yet again.



3putt said:


> 1) How and why did you fall in love with and marry your wife?


Ok, I swear the following is NOT me rewriting history and is actual FACT. So please accept it as the truth (non-fog talk).

I was drawn to her loving and friendly personality and at the time, there was also a unique sexual attraction I had for her. During our courtship (dating), however, she started to show a darker side of her (extreme temper, verbal abuse, etc). I almost broke up with her a couple of times but for whatever reason (I think mostly guilt), we got back together again.

At some stage in my life I had to move to a different country and she wanted to come with me. Her parents said she was NOT going anywhere unless we got married. So you could say I was pressured into getting married with her so she could come with me. I remember at the wedding registration, I was wondering if I actually wanted to go through with this. If I had my time again, I would not get married until I was 100% certain this was the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with.

Basically, for the duration of my marriage, I've never been certain that this woman was my soulmate. I don't think I ever did.

Again, I swear the above is true ... not me rewriting history and not fog talk.



3putt said:


> 2) Were things really, and I mean _*really*_ that bad, or is it possible you're simply rewriting your marital history in your mind to justify your current behavior?


I wouldn't say things were really bad ALL the time. During our marriage, there would be regular bouts of her usual temper and verbal abuse (that would sometimes even escalate to physical). Suffice to say, when it was bad, it was REALLY BAD. Just not ALL the time. Like I said, I was drawn to her friendly, loving personality which she displays when she's not acting like a crazy woman.



DarkHoly said:


> Whatever problem is plaguing you will not be healed by this. This is nothing but the scratching of an itch. If you go off with this woman one day your feeli.gs will fade for her as they did for your wife. And who will you go to then? Do you intend to live and look young forever?


*Fog talk alert!!!*. Maybe, but do I want to die wondering if I let the woman of my dreams go when she was within reach?


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

better yet, just get it over with- DIVORCE.

it's quite obvious you don't want this marriage. spare your wife the grief of false reconciliation, given that you don't want to admit to your affair.

your head is so far up your ass, you can't see straight. you don't even know if this woman has the same feelings _for you_, as you have _for her_.....thus, this is a fantasy.

you've placed your wife, unbeknownst to her, in the humiliating position of being your back-up plan- the runner-up. 


i'm not saying you shouldn't pursue your "fantasy girl," but don't do it at the expense of your wife's feelings. IT'S WRONG!


i say again....._MAN UP!_


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

cledus_snow, are you saying if I don't want to admit to the affair, that I consciously or subconsciously don't want this marriage or reconciliation?

Are you saying if I really valued my marriage, I would be willing to confess to this affair?


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

If you valued and respected your wife, you would not betray her. If you had character, you would not bring another person into your relationship with out your wife's consent. If you marriage is that bad, there are options to deal with it, that could have preserved your dignity, and integrity. What makes you think the other woman would be stupid enough to marry a proven cheater?


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

i'll humor you..... _yes Targ, that's what i'm saying._

for a person who's managed to keep his affair under wraps, you sure are pretty dense.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

B]*I have no idea what the OW wants. She always refers to our time together as "having fun" but avoids any talk of anything more than that*[/B].


This makes me wonder about how many other guys she's had or is having 'fun' with. And with whom she's had the same talk.

And she doesn't care about marriage (yours) so how do you see her caring about a LTR or M with you?


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Targ; you've flushed your marriage and it sounds like you did it for the wrong woman (set aside that any woman prepared to break another marriage is wrong).

Do the decent thing for all 3 of you - walk away and start again. Next time try not to betray someone.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Targ said:


> No kids. About 9 years.


No kids? Why not? My mantra through youth was that I was *never* going to have kids. I didn't want to have one with my W specifically though. The reason that I did, and I'm never going to forgive myself for this, was because "she had sacrificed so much for me; why can't I give her a child? We have a stable base now". Wow. Dumbass.

I want to make it very clear that having our daughter was the greatest thing that ever happened to me... but oh what a terrible reason to have her... because we were "stable".




Targ said:


> Basically, for the duration of my marriage, I've never been certain that this woman was my soulmate. I don't think I ever did.


This is a lesson to you ladies. Don't chase him; give him the signals, manipulate the hell out of him, but never propose and never pressure him into marrying you. The guy MUST decide, for himself, that he wants to marry you... or he will spend the rest of his marriage feeling like he was pressured into it and this can eat the marriage from the inside out.

Targ - whether you can write this doubt off or not, I don't know, but you married her. 



Targ said:


> Again, I swear the above is true ... not me rewriting history and not fog talk.


I believe you.



Targ said:


> I wouldn't say things were really bad ALL the time. During our marriage, there would be regular bouts of her usual temper and verbal abuse (that would sometimes even escalate to physical). Suffice to say, when it was bad, it was REALLY BAD. Just not ALL the time. Like I said, I was drawn to her friendly, loving personality which she displays when she's not acting like a crazy woman.





Targ said:


> Maybe, but do I want to die wondering if I let the woman of my dreams go when she was within reach?


This says bucket loads. I could be wrong, but I think that the love for your W is dead and you really do not respect your wife right now and that's okay... you haven't for a while and the chemicals coursing through your system are amplifying that. People will call you selfish or disrespectful for that. I don't; I think you are faced with a situation that you don't know how to handle and you're spinning around with the "I must" vs "I want". It is a horrific place to be in, especially given the apparent religious ties that your wife [and probably you] have.

But consider this; you've said that your OW is just 'having fun'. If that's true, and you manage to 'win her', do you think that she might always look back on how you met as, "I was just having fun but then he left his W for me I felt guilty so I stayed with him... what was I going to do? Dump him?"

How much pressure will you put on her by leaving your wife to want to be with her? Will she later feel pressured to stay with you, and, possibly even marry you?"

If you truly do want to leave your W, don't you think that you owe it to _YOU_, your W, _and your OW_... to decide why you want to leave? Don't you think that you should "dig deep" and discover those reasons for YOU?

Having an affair with OW has three guaranteed outcomes:

You end up with a broken heart
Your W finds out about your A
Your W, being a mean and abusive women [aka controlling] makes it her mission in life to destroy you in the divorce courts

If your OW loves you... and I mean really loves you... [and I know this sounds really really cliche] she will find a way to stay in your life somehow while you deal with the divorce (though she might date other men during it).

And if she doesn't really love you, and she was just having fun, she walks away and you have escaped another painful divorce 9 years from now. Be honest, if you weren't sure that you wanted to marry your W, do you want a relationship with OW where she spends your entire relationship wondering the same thing?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I've got a couple of different thoughts. 

Do you love your wife? The answer to that is everything. I'm a cheater to so I'm not one to lambast you or tell you that cheating automatically means you don't. 

Do you think you are thinking clearly? Do you think your heart is giving you a good evaluation of the situation? Maybe I'm lucky but I knew I was fogged up to my eyeballs and wasn't thinking right and then I had an "ah ha" moment that proved it to me. I was thinking of the OW one day, thinking of how she liked this, and how she liked that, and how she liked this one particular musician; and just thinking she was the most awesome thing on the planet when it hit me. "YOU IDIOT!! YOUR WIFE LOVES ALL THOSE VERY SAME THINGS!!" I had completely written that out of my mind. That was the moment I knew my thinking was FUBAR, and the moment I realized everything I thought was "real" about the OW was just my mind making her what I wanted her to be. 

Lastly. If your marriage isn't everything you want it to be think of it like this. If its bad enough that you're willing to leave and go sleep alone in a cold bed, well then it may be the right course. However, if you need another woman waiting in that bed to make you feel better and tell you how wonderful you are then you might should reevaluate and put some more effort into your marriage. It's the difference between running from something and running to something. When you run to something the having is almost never as exciting as the wanting. 

IMO you need to give your marriage every effort you can muster and that includes confessing to your wife. Sometimes a crisis is the very thing necessary to be the catalyst of meaningful change. Resolve to fix it or break it trying, but give it an honest effort and that means no pining for the OW.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> If you valued and respected your wife, you would not betray her. If you had character, you would not bring another person into your relationship with out your wife's consent. If you marriage is that bad, there are options to deal with it, that could have preserved your dignity, and integrity. What makes you think the other woman would be stupid enough to marry a proven cheater?


I'm going to agree and disagree here. I agree that what you say is the ideal. But I disagree because it's easy to judge someone as 'without character' when they've already made the mistake. But where were you (or someone like you) to help guide him to these resources before he made the mistake? Right... you (or one like you) were nowhere to be found. So how can he adhere to your moral value set?

In school, we learn about math, science, biology and language. But NOWHERE do we learn about relationships; parents don't talk about them (they might have the 'birds and the bees talk' but that's about it), especially to boys, and especially in religious families. And society teaches us that marriage is inviolate and 'true love' is something to be aspired to (and that's what his body is telling him he has right now, true love or not)

In the real world, we learn about life, and relationships, through trial and error.

Targ 'trialed' and he 'errored' in that he put himself, his W and his OW into a position where someone is guaranteed to get hurt; and now he's paying the price. Now he has to find his way through all of the messages that Disney and society have shoved down his throat all his life.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

TCx said:


> I'm going to agree and disagree here. I agree that what you say is the ideal. But I disagree because it's easy to judge someone as 'without character' when they've already made the mistake. But where were you (or someone like you) to help guide him to these resources before he made the mistake? Right... you (or one like you) were nowhere to be found. So how can he adhere to your moral value set?
> 
> In school, we learn about math, science, biology and language. But NOWHERE do we learn about relationships; parents don't talk about them (they might have the 'birds and the bees talk' but that's about it), especially to boys, and especially in religious families. And society teaches us that marriage is inviolate and 'true love' is something to be aspired to (and that's what his body is telling him he has right now, true love or not)
> 
> ...


What *extra* do you need to learn about marriage that means you would not know that you don't have an affair?

Which moral compass does somebody use that does not direct them away from having an affair?

What lesson in school could teach you any more than the marriage vows. For the avoidance of doubt, here is a typical example:

"do you take (Bride's Name) for your lawful wedded wife, to live in the holy estate of matrimony? Will you love, honour, comfort, and cherish her from this day forward, *forsaking all others*, keeping only unto her for as long as you both shall live?

*Groom:*
I do."

Perhaps we need extra lessons in school about what that means?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Targ said:


> cledus_snow, are you saying if I don't want to admit to the affair, that I consciously or subconsciously don't want this marriage or reconciliation?
> 
> Are you saying if I really valued my marriage, I would be willing to confess to this affair?


I see your choice as much easier than this. You either want to:


Stay married to your W, for reasons of your own
Divorce your W, for reasons of your own

That is the only choice you should focus on. The OW MUST NOT influence that singular decision.

Once you decide that, then you should decide when you want to tell you W about the A. 

If you want to stay together, then it might help you to tell her. But then she may want a divorce and decide to take you for everything.

But if you want to leave her, then don't tell her about the A until after the ink is dry on the separation agreement. 

Because once she finds out or has her suspicions confirmed, she is going to want to murder you. But because that's illegal, she's going to want to destroy you in the divorce proceedings. In this case, be happy that you don't have kids.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Chris989 said:


> What *extra* do you need to learn about marriage that means you would not know that you don't have an affair?


You and I can throw compact cars at each other in another thread. This debate has raged long and hard on TAM and we're not going to get anywhere rehashing it in this thread. 

I have challenged your viewpoint only to offer an alternate perspective. You have challenged my challenge (complete with big fonts and everything for emphasis) and I'm going to leave it at that to avoid hijacking the thread.

You want the moral high ground? It's all yours.

[edit]
_On second thought, let me clarify this post. I'm glad you reminded him of his vows; that's a good thing. My response, above, is an angry one because it really gets under my skin when people accuse others of being 'without character' or hurl other accusations at WS's. I can tell you, from experience, that doing so doesn't do anything to them except stop listening to anything that you say because 'they are just here to judge me' and for some, that's very true.

So I'm sorry for taking a shot at you (the moral high ground bit), that was wrong._
[/edit]


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## roostr (Oct 20, 2012)

You obviously do not value your marraige...You would be doing your wife a huge favor in ending the marraige, she can at least get it over with and move on to a better life. And you can have your new found love.


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## cam44 (Feb 10, 2012)

Targ said:


> Just ended a 1 year affair. Wife does not know.
> 
> My head is spinning. The "fog" has gone into overdrive. I can't stop thinking about the OW, thinking she is the woman of my dreams.
> 
> ...


No balls to divorce before plowing other women? wow ... 'distancing yourself from your wife' ... lolololololol
You should have made all attempts to get your marriage rock solid so that you were fantasizing about your wife rather than being a hound and chasing others .... dog!
If that didnt work, step two is to have the balls, dog, to divorce.
Poor woman ... married a dog. For Christmas she deserves to know what a shallow coward you are -- set her free, give her back her freedom to love another.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Assuming what you wrote in your replies isn't fog babble or history rewriting, exactly why did you break things off with the supposed woman of your dreams? I mean, if things were that bad at home, why not just break it off with your wife and move on?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Targ said:


> cledus_snow, are you saying if I don't want to admit to the affair, that I consciously or subconsciously don't want this marriage or reconciliation?
> 
> Are you saying if I really valued my marriage, I would be willing to confess to this affair?


I would disagree here too. I suspect that you don't want to confess to the A because of fear. You're also in the habit of not telling her about it so telling her is going to put you waaay out there in unknown territory with very little chance for damage control.

But I do agree with others, I believe that you've left your marriage already. Again, back to the choice... 

Although perhaps I should amend the choices that I mentioned earlier; they should be:


Re-marry your W, for reasons of your own
Finalize the divorce with your W, for reasons of your own

I know that your desires and the pressures that are being put on you are immense but you'll eventually come to see that this choice (or something very similar to it) is really all there is to it. It won't seem like it now because you are overwhelmed by a magnitude of emotions, pressures, and secondary/tertiary reasoning. I've been there and to say that it's hell is an understatement.

But you will get there with time.

Btw, everyone here is happy to tell you what your choices are, and I'm apparently not any better. Remember that we're only speaking from our own experience.

But I do want to add that just because you have a decision to make, does not mean that you need to make it today. You don't need to rush into it. 

If it takes a year, fine. Two years? Fine.

It took me 9 months of agonizing and soul searching before I finally pulled the plug. I spoke to my Mom and she said it took her three years of denial to decide that she wanted to leave my Dad (a raging alcoholic). I have a friend that is still waffling, five years after his very very short EA because his wife continues to be damaged and won't let it go; she is the barrier to reconciliation in that marriage now.

It's going to take you time to sort this one out. Or, you could just avoid all of the hard won lesson learning by flipping a coin.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

cam44 said:


> No ***** to divorce before plowing other women? wow ... 'distancing yourself from your wife' ... lolololololol
> 
> [snip: name calling]


Cam, you're way out of line here. You are showing a tremendous amount of disrespect and go so far as to openly insult the OP. This is against forum policy; this post has been reported.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Targ said:


> Just ended a 1 year affair. Wife does not know.
> 
> My head is spinning. The "fog" has gone into overdrive. I can't stop thinking about the OW, thinking she is the woman of my dreams.
> 
> ...


well here i go.......so you had an affair on your wife who does not know and you are having feelings for AP and are expecting what?
Do you not think of your wife and how she might feel? How she would feel if she found out? I mean, the selfishness of WSs amaze me.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

The worst scenario I can foresee is that you tell your wife but she wants to stay in the marriage and you do not. 

Whatever you do, don't lead her into limbo.


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## ubercoolpanda (Sep 11, 2012)

Did you leave the OW or did she leave you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Targ: The reason you should confess to your wife is not only because you might value and respect her (although those SHOULD be the main reasons) - on the face of it, it really doesn't sound like you do value and respect her - hence your secret affair. No, the reason you should confess to your wife is because you value and respect YOURSELF.

Do you want to be a sneaky, cowardly liar? Is that how you want to exit your current relationship and go forward with your AP. Is that the foundation of your "love" for your AP? If you truly believe that you would be happier with your AP, then confess this to your wife and move forward with everything in the daylight. Sneaking around reflects poorly on you, poorly on your feelings for your wife, and poorly on your so-called "love" for your AP.

You need to have an open and honest discussion with your wife and then you need to move forward in whatever direction you choose. But make your choice in the light of day, not sneaking around in the shadows like a rodent.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If I were your W, I would want a divorce. I would not want to keep living with a man who a) is open to finding his dream girl while married to me, b) has serious regrets about marrying me, c) cheats, and d) is so repelled by me that he can't stand my touch.

Pride, self-respect, the desire to have a real marriage - all of those things would make me opt for a divorce.

The problem for me here, Targ, is that by not telling your W that you love someone else, you're not giving her the option of making informed choices for herself. You have all the information to do that for your life, but she does not.


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## cam44 (Feb 10, 2012)

TCx said:


> Cam, you're way out of line here. You are showing a tremendous amount of disrespect and go so far as to openly insult the OP. This is against forum policy; this post has been reported.


he puts his penis inside of another woman out of wedlock and i'm out of line for calling him a dog?
You, sir, need help. RUN do not walk to a therapist.


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

Targ said:


> *Fog talk alert!!!*. Maybe, but do I want to die wondering if I let the woman of my dreams go when she was within reach?


I don't think your problem is a lacking of something you want or deserve. 

Your problem is that the woman of your dreams will always be something or someone you don't have. Which of course is indicative of a different, more troubling matter.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

TCx said:


> I'm going to agree and disagree here. I agree that what you say is the ideal. But I disagree because it's easy to judge someone as 'without character' when they've already made the mistake. But where were you (or someone like you) to help guide him to these resources before he made the mistake? Right... you (or one like you) were nowhere to be found. So how can he adhere to your moral value set?
> 
> In school, we learn about math, science, biology and language. But NOWHERE do we learn about relationships; parents don't talk about them (they might have the 'birds and the bees talk' but that's about it), especially to boys, and especially in religious families. And society teaches us that marriage is inviolate and 'true love' is something to be aspired to (and that's what his body is telling him he has right now, true love or not)
> 
> ...


You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that having an affair is wrong for several reasons. I'll agree that the vast majority of people are ignorant when it comes to relationships, right from selecting a partner to maintaining healthy patterns, and having realistic expectations. 

How can I stand on my high horse and pronounce Targ as being without character? His reported actions reveal a lack of character. He made choices that reveal a lack of character. No one forced him to cheat, he chose to do that. Where were the people who could have helped him? Probably all over the place. How hard was it for you to find this forum? I found it, and made a decision about it within a few short minutes, when I looked. I was looking for help on how to stop being angry. I didn't need help to not cheat, though I had the urge to have an RA. I knew it would be wrong, I knew it would be damaging, I knew it wasn't consistent with what I believe, or who I choose to be. That is character, and I don't need anyone else to tell me that.

I am not saying that to be smug, or to put Targ down, or to feel superior. It just is, and when people show a distinct lack of character, they don't have to perpetuate it. They can recognize their flaws and learn from them. They can resolve to do better, starting now, and carry that into the future. My wife cheated on me. She lied to me. She deceived me. She showed a distinct, glaring lack of character. Does that write her off forever? Does that mean that the 16 years before were all a lie? Is she irredeemable? I don't think so. I do think about it an awful lot, but people, everyone makes mistakes. Some learn from them, some don't, for what ever reason.

Targ came here. He posted. He may be one of the learners.


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## dgtal (Jun 11, 2010)

TCx said:


> Targ,
> 
> First off, the following is only my opinion based on my own experiences from an EA so they are more about my situation than they are about yours. Take what advice you can from it and discard the rest.
> 
> ...


I like this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> If I were your W, I would want a divorce. I would not want to keep living with a man who a) is open to finding his dream girl while married to me, b) has serious regrets about marrying me, c) cheats, and d) is so repelled by me that he can't stand my touch.
> 
> Pride, self-respect, the desire to have a real marriage - all of those things would make me opt for a divorce.
> 
> *The problem for me here, Targ, is that by not telling your W that you love someone else, you're not giving her the option of making informed choices for herself. You have all the information to do that for your life, but she does not*.


You are right aD, but since Targ has no honor I don't see him caring about that.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

You know. I've been here a while as a cheater and I like to think I've helped a few people and I know I've learned quite a lot. I understand that cheaters sometimes need to be hit with 2x4's. I understand that some cheaters are amoral. I also understand that at some point in their lives everyone will suffer a failure of character, that at some point we will all be less than we want to be or are capable of. That we will all let ourselves down. 

I usually tell cheaters here that even the over top and really harsh post are productive. That they provide perspective to the cheater of what their spouse is going through. 

But judgement? We can all judge a set of actions. But judging a person is not productive and I suspect in all but the most extreme cases that the vast majority of us are not qualified to do so. 

If you're here as a betrayed spouse or as a spectator ask yourself before you send that condemnation of someone else's existence if you are trying to help another or if you are trying to punish them because they represent someone who hurt you.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks again to everyone for the replies. I don't mind being judged harshly. I knew that might happen when I started the thread.



3putt said:


> Assuming what you wrote in your replies isn't fog babble or history rewriting, exactly why did you break things off with the supposed woman of your dreams? I mean, if things were that bad at home, why not just break it off with your wife and move on?


Because she wouldn't admit to having any real feelings for me (besides it all being "fun") and I needed to know if my marriage was really that bad or whether I only thought it was bad because of the OW. I wanted to get out of the "fog" so I wouldn't make an emotional decision. Apparently, that might take several months or a year. Geez, I don't know if I can wait that long while my marriage deteriorates.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

how did you rationalize for a year?


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

I need some opinions on something that happened today.

I went to the gym, told the wife I would be back in just over an hour. She had told me she would cook breakfast the night before.

I got home in an hour and fourty minutes. She started yelling at me telling me I was gone for two hours and that the food was now cold and she was hungry. Then started to insult my family saying that I'm an irresponsible person like my whole family. I felt extremely uncomfortable being talked to like a six-year old instead of an adult.

This is very common behaviour from her. In past years, I would have apologized profusely and tried to calm her down. However, because I'm at the stage where I don't want to put up with this anymore, I just sat there silently while she berated me.

Now, I know I made a mistake by letting time slip by. I probably should have said I would be gone for an hour and a half. If she had spoken to me in a stern manner without going over the top, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have apologized and it would not have been a big deal.

Can anyone tell me what they think of this incident. Was my behaviour affected by the "fog"?


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> how did you rationalize for a year?


I knew and know it was wrong.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Targ said:


> I need some opinions on something that happened today.
> 
> I went to the gym, told the wife I would be back in just over an hour. She had told me she would cook breakfast the night before.
> 
> ...


uh, doesn't sound like you've actually ever gotten to that stage, you bypassed it entirely by seeking relations outside the marriage.

It obviously was important for your W to cook you breakfast, and you denied her the chance at that, if you knew you'd be atleast half hour later than you said you'd be it was your responsibility to communicate that - the ways she is trying to show you love you minimize, avoid and use to hurt her. It goes beyond being affected by the fog, it is deliberate sabotage of your marriage. Her emotions are not happening in a vacuum - your decision to cheat can't be blamed at all on a crappy marriage, you got it backwards: your marriage is deteriorating BECAUSE you have been neglecting to put the emotional effort into in and also to reject the emotional effort your W is trying to put into it.

But I don't really have any advice for you at this point, because IMHO, respectfully, there is no chance for you to ever treat your W the way a W is supposed to be treated.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

This is a good opportunity. I was going to post that you don't have to let your marriage continue to deteriorate while you wait for the fog to lift. You don't have to be passive in your marriage. What if you took all the energy you were directing towards the other woman, and used it to improve yourself and your marriage?

Doing little things, like giving accurate time estimates, then doing your best to stick to them, and having the courtesy to contact her to revise it if something happens to delay you. Or having the courage to interrupt a tirade to keep it relevant. Her going off on your family is uncalled for, and you can say so. You were late, maybe you were thoughtless. Accept it, apologise, acknowledge you were disrespectful, resolve to do better, and DO BETTER. If you can do that, you de-escalate the situation, and take responsibility for your mistake.

You can make small changes in the way you do things, that can have huge effects on your marriage, if you try. Even in the worst case, if your marriage does not improve, you can become a better person yourself, and you can end the marriage if need be, and be that much better starting out on your next relationship.


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

No. I don't think your behavior, in this instance, is based on "fog".

I truly feel like you need to sit down with your wife and have a deep conversation about the state of your marriage. 
You are both harboring a lot of resentment towards each other. This is leading to her angry outbursts and your feelings of indifference. 
If you both want this marriage to work.... You need to communicate more. You are not communicating with your wife. You need to reconnect, start doing the things you guys did when you were dating. 15 hours a week, minimum. It sounds like you are both leading separate lives and living as room mates. This is how infidelity happens. You are not meeting each others emotional needs. 

Read the books Love Busters and His Needs/Her Needs. The marriage builders website can help. Otherwise, separate amicably. 

You can easily regain the love you had for your wife, you just have to want it.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Lon said:


> It obviously was important for your W to cook you breakfast


Yes, I agree. It was nice of her.



Lon said:


> and you denied her the chance at that, if you knew you'd be atleast half hour later than you said you'd be it was your responsibility to communicate that - the ways she is trying to show you love you minimize, avoid and use to hurt her. It goes beyond being affected by the fog, it is deliberate sabotage of your marriage.


Are you suggesting I was deliberately late? I was working out in the gym. I don't check the watch regularly while I'm working out. It was sincerely an honest mistake.



Lon said:


> Her emotions are not happening in a vacuum - your decision to cheat can't be blamed at all on a crappy marriage, you got it backwards: your marriage is deteriorating BECAUSE you have been neglecting to put the emotional effort into in and also to reject the emotional effort your W is trying to put into it.


Or maybe a bit of both?



Lon said:


> But I don't really have any advice for you at this point, because IMHO, respectfully, there is no chance for you to ever treat your W the way a W is supposed to be treated.


Yes, you may be right. And I feel terrible about it. That's why I started this thread. I'm really finding it extremely hard to reconnect with my wife.



SadandAngry said:


> This is a good opportunity. I was going to post that you don't have to let your marriage continue to deteriorate while you wait for the fog to lift. You don't have to be passive in your marriage. What if you took all the energy you were directing towards the other woman, and used it to improve yourself and your marriage?


It's hard. I did try to move forward. Being more affectionate (though probably not enough), little kisses in the morning, at night before bed or goodbye when I'm leaving. Then she reverts back to her "crazy woman" self again and I remember why I felt depressed about my whole marriage to begin with.



SadandAngry said:


> Doing little things, like giving accurate time estimates, then doing your best to stick to them, and having the courtesy to contact her to revise it if something happens to delay you.


Like I said before. It was an honest mistake. I'm human. I make mistakes. I think the severity of her tirade was out of proportion to my mistake. It's something I've put up with for my whole marriage.



SadandAngry said:


> Or having the courage to interrupt a tirade to keep it relevant. Her going off on your family is uncalled for, and you can say so. You were late, maybe you were thoughtless. Accept it, apologise, acknowledge you were disrespectful, resolve to do better, and DO BETTER. If you can do that, you de-escalate the situation, and take responsibility for your mistake.


I've tried that in the past, with varying degress of success. I feel like I'm too emotionally exhausted now to try anymore when she goes off on one of her typical over the top rants.



SadandAngry said:


> You can make small changes in the way you do things, that can have huge effects on your marriage, if you try. Even in the worst case, if your marriage does not improve, you can become a better person yourself, and you can end the marriage if need be, and be that much better starting out on your next relationship.


I feel like I've been the most patient person ever in this marriage (maybe not the most loving). I've always put up with her temper tantrums and outbursts and the majority of the time, it's been me who has apologized. Lately though, I've pretty much given up on trying to soothe her over and I just sit there silently, feeling depressed. Is it the "fog"? I don't know.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Targ - you are truly in an ultra-selfish fog.

Your wife offered and told you she would cook you breakfast. You agreed. It was thoughtless of you to make a "mistake" like that. I would wager that you would not have made the same "mistake" for your AP. Be honest.

BTW, did you ever apologize for your mistake, or did you just stay pissed off that your wife was upset over your "little mistake"?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Targ said:


> Yes, I agree. It was nice of her.
> *
> I didn't say it was nice of her, I said it was important to her - while it may have also been nice for you, there is a big distinction*
> 
> ...


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Well, that's the thing. You two have patterns of relating that are not healthy. I'm not saying you should take the tirades and abuse. You've done that, and it doesn't work. You need to not take it. You need to speak up for yourself, draw some lines as to what you will take in an argument, and what you won't. You probably need help in determining what a healthy boundary would be. If she crosses the line, then there would be a clear unambiguous reaction from you. Again, you might need help determining what that might be. 

I think you recognize that what you've done before doesn't work. I don't think you know what to do to make things better. I think you're tired of trying and having nothing change. I think you gave up, and that is why you had an affair. It was just easier than facing your problems at home.

I don't know if your marriage can be saved. I do know you can work on yourself, you can change the way you do things everyday, and you can see what effects they have. Give your self 3 months, six months, read books and get different ideas than you come up with on your own, do exercises, change yourself for the better. Then the fog should lift, and you can assess your situation and make good, rational choices. Does that make sense to you?


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Lon, yes, I agree. It was important to her. But, honest to god, I was not deliberately late. And she had only mentioned it casually the night before and in the morning I had forgotten about it. And, ok, I accept the selfish bit to a certain degree. I guess I should have been paying more attention.

Like I said in my initial post, I would have apologized immediately if she had been reasonable with her anger. Yet she went over the top and I started feeling depressed again. So, no, I didn't apologize, unfortunately.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Targ said:


> Lon, yes, I agree. It was important to her. But, honest to god, I was not deliberately late. And she had only mentioned it casually the night before and in the morning I had forgotten about it. And, ok, I accept the selfish bit to a certain degree. I guess I should have been paying more attention.
> 
> Like I said in my initial post, I would have apologized immediately if she had been reasonable with her anger. Yet she went over the top and I started feeling depressed again. So, no, I didn't apologize, unfortunately.


I think she is probably insecure because of lots of things.

No excuse for either of you.

BUT

This has nothing whatsoever to do with your betrayal. You can figure out what needs to be done here - more thought from you and less 'abuse' from her.

What you have done is the worst abuse possible. The pain you will inevitably cause is far worse than anything - physical or emotional - your wife has ever suffered.

There is no excuse for betrayal. None.

If you don't like your marriage then get out. Then start thinking of your AP - but not before.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Okay - I will say you brought this on yourself...after a spouse has an affair ALL TRUST is gone.....so small things start to matter. Even though I am not with my STBXW - I hear things through my children and I do not trust ANYTHING she says or does. Why - because of the betrayal acts she did...I mean how can a person carry on a betrayal and get up and eat breakfast each morning like nothing happened? The duplicity of people who have affairs never ceases to amze me...little things like when she talks to my kids - I now wonder what she is saying, to whom, about what, etc....get it? I don't trust her and to me your spouse is screeching "I DO NOT TRUST YOU". You have to earn it back.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

You would not have been late for the OW , yet you cant make the effort for your wife . Your actions speak volumes .

You are knowingly or un-knowingly been disconnecting from your wife, your expectation is your wife treats you well yet you make no effort to do the same . Whats more important the gym or your marriage? 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Cedarman said:


> Targ - you are truly in an ultra-selfish fog.


Dude, time slipped or he gave an inaccurate estimate. We all do it and many of us don't phone our spouses when we're only going to be 'a few mins late'.

Yes, he needs to give better estimates and, when he fails, call her to revise if he's going to be late. But if they've been together and he is late often then she should also be more understanding of his faults and expect him to be late too. Also, the way that she approaches it is to yell and tell him that he's an @ss; that's not productive either. She has communication issues galore.

IMHO, here is what happened. Targ is probably 'a few mins late' quite often. Over their nine years, this trait has frustrated his W who obviously knows how to effectively communicate her frustration; whether her expectations are too high is immaterial. She wanted to do something nice, he was late (as usual?) which triggered nine years of frustration and resentment and it all came pouring out of her.

Targ, if the above sounds right... repeat it back to her. But whatever you do, DO NOT accuse her of not communicating well, that will really set her off because she doesn't see herself as at fault. She "told" you what she was thinking... she just did it in a really sh!tty way.

IMHO, you guys need MC. Ask your counselor to focus on communication.



Cedarman said:


> BTW, did you ever apologize for your mistake, or did you just stay pissed off that your wife was upset over your "little mistake"?


This requires more than an apology. It requires a calm discussion about how each of them felt to rebuild their empathy for each other.

Targ - you also said that when you are nice to her she 'goes off' more often. Are you a 'nice guy'? And are you from country Peace? Is your wife from country 'Control'?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

bigtone128 said:


> Okay - I will say you brought this on yourself...after a spouse has an affair ALL TRUST is gone.


She probably suspects but he hasn't told her yet. And from the rest of the thread, they've probably been mis-communicating like this for a loooooong time.

He's said she's been 'crazy' for the majority of their time together.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Give me a dime for every-time a wayward blames their spouse or calls them crazy, I could buy back the national debt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Targ said:


> I don't mind being judged harshly.


But most people do. 

When you judge someone, the person being judged instantly goes on the defensive. When people go on the defensive, they dig in on their position and it typically escalates into a heated argument and it becomes a war of attrition. 

And at the end, there's so much pride involved that even if one party 'wins' the argument, the other will be too proud to admit it.

There are really only three main reasons for posting a judgmental comment:

the judge lacks good communication skills; for example
they don't think before they speak (either because they are angry and want to lash out or simply because they are not in the habit of doing so)
they make no effort to empathize with the other, or see the other person's side

to attack another person's self-esteem, possible reasons could be
use aggression to get someone to doubt their own position; if you are violent enough in your attack they must surely listen, right? wrong.
exercise control over the other, by weakening their position
to make themselves feel better by making you feel worse

the judge is trolling and looking for a fight

Learning to communicate better is an important skill. And as it turns out, it's also a cornerstone to a good marriage.

Targ - don't repeat any of this back to your wife. She's pissed at you and will be in no mood to hear any of this and would only take it as an accusation. People only ever absorb knowledge when they are ready to hear it so....


*Try an exercise:*

If your wife is a 'reader', find a book on how different people communicate differently. Make sure that the topics list topics that you think that you can improve on and ones that you think she can improve on. 

Then, start going to bed early to read it (even if you've already read it). When she comes to bed, make sure that she can see the title at some point, but leave it on the night stand, face up.

This will pique her interest (why is he reading self help books? am i finally getting through?). She might even take a peek when you're not around.

Either way, as you read the book, take note of the things that you realize that you do wrong (NEVER what she does wrong) and...

When you see something in there about how you've been wrong or communicated badly, mention it to her and tell her how you realize how wrong you've been exhibiting that behavior. And say that you'll try to do better and that you recognize that change won't come easy and that it takes time and that you hope that she can bear with you. This is a peace offering and makes the book less threatening and even gives it more credibility.

Then tell her that you have learned so much from the book and that it would mean a lot to you for her to read it to help her understand you better and some of the things you struggle with. As she reads the book, some of it will sink in... she will recognize some of her own patterns in the book and this way, it's not you that told her that she is a crappy communicator, it's the book...

That might be enough to get her thinking about her own self discovery. 

_Warning_: You are only going to get one chance with this. If you are constantly reading self-help books she will lose interest. But the *first* book that she _sees_ you doing this with will really really really pique her interest because it's something new and she will be really curious.

And if that "first" book (that she *sees* you reading) makes you admit to a fault of your own, you can damned well be sure that she will also want to read it.... if she likes reading.

So pick a book that talks about how different types of people relate to each other so it covers some of your bases and some of hers.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Give me a dime for every-time a wayward blames their spouse or calls them crazy, I could buy back the national debt.


Don't you think that it's interesting how that statement is actually completely meaningless and yet it has so much meaning to you?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Targ said:


> I wanted to get out of the "fog" so I wouldn't make an emotional decision. Apparently, that might take several months or a year. Geez, I don't know if I can wait that long while my marriage deteriorates.


Another alternative that helped me was a trial separation. I don't know how you would justify it to your W without telling her about the A but it did wonders for me (though not my W).

We took a few months away from each other and that did the following for me:

got me away from my W who, while she was around, was a constant source of pain, guilt and discomfort because, at first, she didn't want to talk about anything and I did
gave me time to focus on me and my thoughts, read and just calm down
gave me time to do activities like running, hiking, country drives, etc
got her away from me and my moodiness
gave us both the opportunity to see if we actually missed each other
showed both of us that we could have a life without each other

We just did two months but it paid huge dividends for me. The problem, right now, is that you can't talk to the one person that you should be talking to; your W.

One word of caution though. If you did get away from her you'd probably start to feel better and there is a danger that you would confuse the healing power of time to think with the idea that you feel better simply because she's not around.

Anyways, I don't think you're at this stage yet, but you may get to a point where you are and a trial separation might be an avenue to explore.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

TCx said:


> Don't you think that it's interesting how that statement is actually completely meaningless and yet it has so much meaning to you?



and this is coming from yourself, who tried and failed to seduce a co-worker, please!! The message is very clear, waywards tend to blame their BS for the marriage failings hence the comment "He's said she's been 'crazy' for the majority of their time together" - its called blame shifting and gaslighting. 

He needs to own up to his affair and let his wife make the decision as what to do next. R is possible if he starts by telling the truth and actually works on his marriage. There are options of how to recover the marriage and communication is just one of them.

How about starting with actions, instead of being "forty min" late from gym , don't go to gym, Targ could have offered to take his wife out for breakfast or better still hang around the house or help her prepare it.

If Targ and his wife cannot be together then they should D , so long as his wife knows of his affair and does not assume the failings are hers alone.


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## Kimberley17 (Oct 10, 2011)

I suggest only leaving your marriage if you would still do it if OW was not in your life.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> The message is very clear, waywards tend to blame their BS for the marriage failings hence the comment "He's said she's been 'crazy' for the majority of their time together"


And, in my experience, BS's tend to blame waywards for everything, thereby taking to focus off of their own contributions to marital failure (that's not to excuse the infidelity btw, but marriages can, and do, fail before infidelity); that's also blame shifting and gas lighting. And that argument is one that's going to rage across TAM until the end of time.

Anyways, she may have been 'crazy', irrational, etc. You don't know. Neither do I. And if she's been frustrated for most of their time together, I bet you she has been 'crazy'. She might only be with him because she doesn't know anything else. She may have had affairs too. You have no idea. Neither do I.

Your earlier statement only demonstrated your own bias.



Eli-Zor said:


> He needs to own up to his affair and let his wife make the decision as what to do next. R is possible if he starts by telling the truth, assuming he does this there are options of how to recover the marriage and communication is just one of them.


Agreed. If he tells her, she can do what is right for her.

Targ also needs to do what is right for him. Right now he's in the quagmire of fear, pain, self doubt and he's looking for a way forward; he's trying.



Eli-Zor said:


> How about starting with actions, instead of being "forty min" late from gym , don't go to gym,


I disagree here. He got the time wrong; that means he needs a watch with an alarm and the discipline to stick to the time. He did what most people do.

"I will exercise for one hour". But he forgot to take travel time, time to shower, get changed, etc into account with his estimate. He did not give an end-to-end estimate. This was his biggest mistake.

Not calling means that he was correcting a mistake which, when someone is already frustrated with you only feeds the frustration. I suspect that had he called it would have dulled her frustration but the mishap would still have added to it... even though she would have choked on it semi-silently.

Either way, I view this as an expectation that is unrealistically high. It is not his job to pander to his wife. He has needs and possibly a routine too and if going to the gym is part of his routine then they both have to work around that.



Eli-Zor said:


> Targ could have offered to take your wife out for breakfast or better still hang around the house or help her prepare it.


Yes, he could have. Though I suspect most of us would have let the scheduling part of this fiasco go exactly the same way, yourself included. I doubt that you would seriously ask your H _"actually, instead of going to the gym, can you please help me prepare the breakfast that I promised you, or failing that, would you mind waiting around for me to finish it?"_

She might say, _"Actually, you know what. I know that you wanted to go to the gym this morning but it would *really* mean a lot to me if you went a little later in the day and had breakfast with me. It would be even better if you could make the [eggs/toast/insert favourite food here]"_ That is reasonable because it communicates her needs...

No, his mistake was losing track of time and not calling her to update her. And she got pissed because she was sitting there, with her life on hold, waiting for him to come home.... waiting... and waiting... for 40 mins. He was insensitive, she got pissed, and rightly so.

PS - We all have the benefit of hind sight here. Let's not judge too harshly. I'm sure that he will do better next time.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

TCx :- your making excuses for Targ, if he is truly remorseful about his affair and wants his marriage to work he would be doing everything he can. If you wish to debate this further - start your own thread. 

Apologies Targ for the thread jack.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I get the feeling that you think you are in the grips of this 'fog' that you are helpless to control. You've read about it, and know that you can 'emerge' with time.

But the term 'the fog' is a metaphor for the type of infatuation that occurs with an affair. This is infatuation, or falling in love, that is tied to secrecy and unrealistic bonding. In a normal courtship, things are done out in the open, with no shame or skulking around. Partners get to know one another eventually in everyday environments; they learn different aspects of one another. With time, they may really like and even love the things they learn, but perhaps not, after which they can break up.

With an extramarital affair, though, the lack of light of day doesn't allow for normal bonding, so the feelings of love are not really based on reality. This is the reason given for so many affair relationships failing once they are made 'official' after the divorce of betrayed parties. These unrealistic circumstances create a chemistry that usually cannot withstand the long term in real life. So, this type of 'falling in love' is called 'the fog.'

It isn't something that you simply can't help. It isn't 'happening' to you. You can avoid it by making certain choices, by having boundaries in place. If you haven't done that - and you haven't - you can find yourself in love with your AP and looking at a failed marriage. The fog doesn't just lift with time. You have to work to do that.

In your case, Targ, I think you may be passive in the hopes that your W's behavior will reinforce the doom you feel for your marriage. Maybe your M is doomed. Maybe she isn't good for you. Anything is possible. But, you have made a choice to try to find out by staying away from your AP. If you are committed to doing that, you need to make your best effort to rekindle things with your W. You can't be passive. If you make an effort, it can't be small steps, one tiny bit at a time.

I think she has known for a long time that you have checked out, maybe even longer than your A has lasted. Certainly something got you started on the A in the first place, so your reasons were in place probably before you began with your AP. People we live closely with are not stupid. Your W may very well know that you don't like her very much - even can't stand to have her touch you - and she's very sensitive as a result. She probably overreacted today because of that. For her it's just another sign, however small, that you don't want to be with her.

I commend you for trying, but think an honest discussion with her would go a long way toward achieving some measure of mutual respect in your marriage.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

cledus_snow said:


> better yet, just get it over with- DIVORCE.
> 
> it's quite obvious you don't want this marriage. spare your wife the grief of false reconciliation, given that you don't want to admit to your affair.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. Stop being a selfish jerk...You just wasted another year of your wife's life that you can't give back to her nor even are concerned to. The only decent action you can take is to divorce your wife. You already made your choice in secret cowardice. Do her a favor and allow her to have a real man come into her life and give her the kind of love you are giving away to OW. PS When you find that the OW has a darker side too, don't go running back to your ex-wife-to-be saying you made a mistake. The sad reality is that you already secretly divorced your wife in your heart and soul and behind her back. While "nursing" your little OW memories in secret, you continue to commit adultery. Betrayal of this nature is the worst form of hypocrisy. The worst form of arrogance - feeling you have a greater right to make a choice between your wife and OW and the whole time your wife is choosing to be in covenant with you not knowing she is just another option. Your wife is not a default choice nor a plan b...Your choosing OW everyday for another year means you need to get out of your wife's life, she deserves a shot at happiness too and you can't give her anything remotely close to that. I can't imagine how the past year has been for her, living with a distracted, nit-picking and volatile quasi-husband. She doesn't even know she is competing with a ghost from your secret past on HER time...Reduce your mileage on the Karma bus.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Targ said:


> What do I want? Right now my mind is telling me 100% that I want to be with the OW.
> 
> How can I tell if what I want is *really *want I want?


Targ, the person who can help best with this decision lives under the same roof with you, go ask your wife the questions above, she'll clear it up...

*Spouse*™ brand _defogger_ is some of the best on the market and for a limited time it's *free!*

T


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> I'm really finding it extremely hard to reconnect with my wife.


The fact you can't conect the huge secret/wall between you guys and the fact you are pinning about annother woman which seems to resemble you ideals and the lack of "conection" as if they were two completely separate realities is simply amazing.

You sound very passive agresive. The whole affair is your agression. You believe yourrself this long suffering victim, you aaaalways act as the nice guy who put up with his crazy beatch of a wife. You sound the perpetual victim who hate conflict but pay back with interests (enough already) instead of being assertive of your needs and your boundaires. I don't believe arriving late was an "honest" mistake. It's another passive agressive behavior to punish her and later confirm what you "already knew" (her predictable behavior). Victims need perpetrators by default.

She's playing a game without knowing the rules and with just the left arm and you see her failing to play it properly, from afar, pointing out the mistakes. Do you believe she doesn't "know" something smell very wrong in the marraige?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> She's playing a game without knowing the rules and with just the left arm...


Exactly. This isn't fair to her, Targ.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

The whole situation is so unfair...
Playing victim, judging her while you are the one holding all the cards is beyond arrogant. Can we say pupper master? Can we say gaslighting? Google it. man. It's abusive. You are not nice. You are being abusive. Face the mirror.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> The whole situation is so unfair...
> Playing victim, judging her while you are the one holding all the cards is beyond arrogant. Can we say pupper master? Can we say gaslighting? Google it. man. It's abusive. You are not nice. You are being abusive. Face the mirror.


A lot of people do what Targ is doing. They drift away from their spouses, harbor bad feelings, but don't really discuss them. It's very common for freshly-divorced people to say that they only 'discovered' A, B, or C once the divorce was final. I think it's a form of rationalization.


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## ready2run (Dec 8, 2012)

Go to your wife and tell her you want the OW. Let her in on whats happening to her life...good chance she is going to give you just what you want...freedom.


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## committedwife (Dec 12, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> and this is coming from yourself, who tried and failed to seduce a co-worker, please!!


Ahh. NOW his posts make sense. I thought I caught a whiff of 'wayward' in them.



Eli-Zor said:


> The message is very clear, waywards tend to blame their BS for the marriage failings hence the comment "He's said she's been 'crazy' for the majority of their time together" - its called blame shifting and gaslighting.


It's also known as rewriting history. Waywards can't honestly justify screwing around on their spouse without making themselves look like the schmucks that they are, so they turn the faithful spouse into a nutjob. You'll notice Targ didn't leave his wife when she "became crazy" after they got married. And he STILL hasn't left her. She conveniently became "crazy" in hindsight - after he climbed into the pig pen with OW. 



Eli-Zor said:


> He needs to own up to his affair and let his wife make the decision as what to do next. R is possible if he starts by telling the truth and actually works on his marriage. There are options of how to recover the marriage and communication is just one of them.


 Yep yep and yep. His wife knows something is up, even though he has lied diligently to keep her in the dark. When my FWH was screwing around with the office ho, I knew something was wrong with our relationship, but I didn't know what it was. Things got really clear when D-Day rolled around. 




Eli-Zor said:


> How about starting with actions, instead of being "forty min" late from gym , don't go to gym, Targ could have offered to take his wife out for breakfast or better still hang around the house or help her prepare it.


 And how about being a big boy and being accountable for your time? Look at your damned watch, man! What, are you Rocky, that you're pumping so hard you can't look at your wrist?? If you don't want to be treated like a six-year-old, _don't act like one_.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

committedwife said:


> You'll notice Targ didn't leave his wife when she "became crazy" after they got married. And he STILL hasn't left her. She conveniently became "crazy" in hindsight - after he climbed into the pig pen with OW.


I get the impression that you've not really been following this thread that carefully. Might I suggest you go back and at least read Targ's posts again rather than rewriting his history for him.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. Some are harsh, but I think I deserve it so keep them coming. I appreciate all opinions and points of views.



committedwife said:


> It's also known as rewriting history. Waywards can't honestly justify screwing around on their spouse without making themselves look like the schmucks that they are, so they turn the faithful spouse into a nutjob. You'll notice Targ didn't leave his wife when she "became crazy" after they got married. And he STILL hasn't left her. She conveniently became "crazy" in hindsight - after he climbed into the pig pen with OW.


You are right in some ways, and also not in others.

It's true I didn't leave her during her early crazy days. I think it was mostly because of my determination to make it work despite her "craziness". In my mind, breaking up the marriage would have made me look like a failure and I wasn't sure I wanted to deal with that.

After I met the OW, I began to wonder if it was really worth it to keep having to put up with all this. She didn't just become "crazy" in hindsight. Just that my tolerance levels dropped significantly.

I'm thinking this post is going to result in some harsh replies. But that's ok. I want to read them anyway.


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## manonfire (Nov 29, 2012)

Going to pray for you bud. 
Might as well just tell her. It probably won't work out in the end.
But at least you can come to terms with your self and move on.
Who knows. Maybe it will work out. The truth will set you free.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think I've put my finger on what it is about what your decision to try things with your W that feels most off-kilter to me. Usually, the WS's who commit to attempting to make things work at home are much more conflicted than you seem to be. They are tortured by the sense that they love two people. They say they love their spouses, but are in love with their AP's. They still often have respect, love, and admiration for their spouses and don't want to hurt them, but feel the spark and chemistry with the AP.

You sound different. You can correct me, but my read is that you feel contempt for your W and you are trying to give things a chance now out of respect for the institution of marriage or other elements unrelated to your personal feelings for your W.

I can well expect that I am wrong, but if not, I think it would be best just to put the both of you out of your misery.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> You sound different. You can correct me, but my read is that you feel contempt for your W


Contempt sounds way too harsh. You could say I have lost a lot of respect for her due to the way she has acted periodically throughout our marriage.

I don't hate her. Deep down, I really do care for her. But I think also at the core is a deep resentment for those frequent bouts of rage that I have had to endure, sometimes in front of friends and family (very embarrassing, if not humiliating).

I just spoke to my sister earlier today and I asked her if she ever shouted at her husband. She said no, she's just not a shouter and has never shouted at him in their 10/11 years of marriage.

Nor am I. I have probably only ever shouted at my wife a couple of times (if that) in 9 years, and that was only when I was completely frustrated at her constant temper tantrums, not because of something she did that may have upset or angered me. After speaking with my sister, I felt even more depressed.



alte Dame said:


> and you are trying to give things a chance now out of respect for the institution of marriage or other elements unrelated to your personal feelings for your W.


I think that is a fair statement.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Targ. Whilst this may be true, it is not relevant.

You are demonising your wife in order to justify your betrayal.

In order for you to move on I believe you have to accept what you have done and - more importantly - why.

Your wife shouting at you is not a reason - it's an excuse.


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## Pointegirl (Nov 21, 2012)

Targ said:


> Lon, yes, I agree. It was important to her. But, honest to god, I was not deliberately late. And she had only mentioned it casually the night before and in the morning I had forgotten about it. And, ok, I accept the selfish bit to a certain degree. I guess I should have been paying more attention.
> 
> Like I said in my initial post, I would have apologized immediately if she had been reasonable with her anger. Yet she went over the top and I started feeling depressed again. So, no, I didn't apologize, unfortunately.


There's this crazy invention called a telephone. Use it if you're going to be late. Think about if you were first dating & infatuated with her. If you were going to be late even a few minutes, would you have called? Act that way with her now.

If she was reaching out to you emotionally through cooking (something I use as my love language), then by not communicating, it probably did feel like you purposefully did this to her. Right or wrong, I can see how she would feel hurt by this. Her reaction may not have been right, but you weren't right to her either.

Also, this may mean that she knows or suspects the affair. It was my husband's "hour" trip to the gym (5 min away) that took over two hours on a Sunday morning that got me suspicious. I check the miles on his car & he had driven 60. So, being off on your timing can be sending her bad signals & making her question you even when you aren't doing anything sneaky.

You need to decide whether or not you respect her deep down & then deal with that, making your choices accordingly. If you feel she doesn't respect you, then that's why you go to counseling together.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Pointegirl said:


> If she was reaching out to you emotionally through cooking (something I use as my love language), then by not communicating, it probably did feel like you purposefully did this to her. Right or wrong, I can see how she would feel hurt by this. Her reaction may not have been right, but you weren't right to her either.


You make an interesting point here but I doubt that he's read the book that your basing some of your idea on. ie - He's probably not familiar with the term 'love language'... or how many there are, etc etc... hint hint.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Targ said:


> Contempt sounds way too harsh. You could say I have lost a lot of respect for her due to the way she has acted periodically throughout our marriage.


Her outbursts have bugged you for a long time and they needle you. Because they are something concrete that you can see as a problem, they naturally stand out as a problem. She probably needs some anger management counseling.

But then, what causes these outbursts? Is it just her being crazy or is it you being ignorant in the way that you set her off?

My mom has a saying. "When someone does something that annoys you it gives you a rash. Eventually, the rash gets so bad that it only takes the slightest touch to cause you pain"

Have some of your behaviors given her a 'rash'?



Targ said:


> But I think also at the core is a deep resentment for those frequent bouts of rage that I have had to endure, sometimes in front of friends and family (very embarrassing, if not humiliating).





Targ said:


> ... After speaking with my sister, I felt even more depressed.


Have you ever asked your sister what her opinion of your W's outbursts is? Have you done so recently and said, "_Sis... I really need an honest answer here. Is she just crazy or do you see me setting her off? Our marriage really is at stake here_" I'm sure your sister has an opinion and the first one that she gives is likely to be in your favour so look for hesitation, her trying to think [about a nice way to put it] and that kind of thing.



Targ said:


> I just spoke to my sister earlier today and I asked her if she ever shouted at her husband. She said no, she's just not a shouter and has never shouted at him in their 10/11 years of marriage.


Everyone as different marriages. I went through this too; comparing my marriage to those of my friends and colleagues. My W and I have not had an argument in 12 years of being together. That's something that I look back on now and it makes me sad because we should have been 'fighting' about things. My W just never voiced her opinion and when I didn't pay attention to her needs (and proactively drag her opinions out of her), they were not met and she just sucked it up and it eventually made her miserable.

I'm not saying your sister is like that but don't think that their marriage is perfect just because they don't yell at each other.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

TCx said:


> Everyone as different marriages. I went through this too; comparing my marriage to those of my friends and colleagues. My W and I have not had an argument in 12 years of being together. That's something that I look back on now and it makes me sad because we should have been 'fighting' about things. My W just never voiced her opinion and when I didn't pay attention to her needs (and proactively drag her opinions out of her), they were not met and she just sucked it up and it eventually made her miserable.


Do you realize OP'smarriage is exactly the opposite? He's the one who suck it up, drop his personal boundaires, play the nice guy, the noble one, then resent her and pay back by cheating on her. Conflict avoidance/passive agressiveness at finest.
BW probably resent OP for not standing up to her, like you resented and lost respect for you wife.

The only thing in common between you and OP's marriage is both of you cheated.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You and your W both sound very unhappy in your marriage. Since we don't have your W's side of things, we can only surmise, of course. It sounds like you're going along to get along and this simply isn't working.

I urge you again to talk to her honestly. I can't believe that she doesn't know that you have disengaged emotionally. If you read more here, you'll see that what enrages and hurts people almost more than the cheating is the lying. People would generally rather know the truth than be 'spared' and badly humiliated.

And for your part, Targ, how is your 'fog' now?


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Contempt sounds harsh, because it is harsh, and it is exactly the right word to use. Think about it. You carried on an affair, deceived your wife, pretended at home. If that isn't contemptuous, I don't know wtf is.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Acabado said:


> Do you realize OP'smarriage is exactly the opposite?


Do you realize that you appear to skip reading the first sentence of every paragraph? You know, the one that said, "Everyone as different marriages". 



Acabado said:


> BW probably resent OP for not standing up to her, like you resented and lost respect for you wife.


I don't get that impression. Her behavior could have started as a reaction to their different methods of communication or he could have trained her to act that way by rewarding her behavior either with submissive behavior, gifts, etc. Or, she could just have anger management issues; who knows.



Acabado said:


> The only thing in common between you and OP's marriage is both of you cheated.


Do you even realize why you said this?  (note: this is a rhetorical question; if you feel the need to respond we can discuss it in PM)


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> Contempt sounds harsh, because it is harsh, and it is exactly the right word to use. Think about it. You carried on an affair, deceived your wife, pretended at home. If that isn't contemptuous, I don't know wtf is.


His wife's fears/suspicions have probably not been confirmed yet so she doesn't "know" that he's had an affair yet. The contempt you speak of is more likely your own than hers.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

What his wife knows has nothing to do with it. HIS choices show contempt, as do every other cheaters choices before they step back.

My contempt, I suppose it could be instructive to him in some ways. If I think about it, it is part of what underlies my participation in this forum. Reading, posting, digesting the ideas and concepts here, for me they help dilute the contempt, remind me of why I am married, trying to unseat the anger of the betrayal and deceit it was born from. My contempt did not lead me to give up, to seek kibbles elsewhere from outside my marriage. It lead me here. It has lead me to face the problems in my marriage, not to run away from them. That is a different choice from Targ's. So what's your point?


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

TCx said:


> His wife's fears/suspicions have probably not been confirmed yet so she doesn't "know" that he's had an affair yet. The contempt you speak of is more likely your own than hers.


I was never speaking of hers, I was speaking of his, btw.


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## thatgirll007 (Dec 14, 2010)

Targ - I hope you get an opportunity to read this response in the middle of all of the other stuff that is going on in your thread.

I'm writing because I hate to see WS end up like my ex. I empathize with you in a lot of ways. My XH left me after 12 years of marriage and so much of what he said/did sounds like what you're saying and doing.

At the time, he blamed me for the demise of our marriage. And I took that blame. Much of what he said about me at the time was true. The fact of the matter is, no one is perfect and there is always something that can be changed, be it a quick temper, nagging, video games, weight. Spouses don't come/stay in perfect packaging.

Your W's temper might be the result of so many things - some that you affect and some that you have nothing to do with (her childhood, environment, etc.) Surely, she could find better strategies for coping with her emotional issues - and life will probably teach her that lesson at some point. A man who truly loved her would support and encourage her toward that end - while simultaneously loving her and sticking to his own emotional boundaries (i.e., not sitting around and tolerating emotional abuse). It wouldn't be an either/or - it would be an if/and situation, if you can understand what I mean. 

My ex made the decision to leave me to have a shot at making a go of it with his "dream woman". She was physically what he had always wanted and he thought that her attitude and personality were a much better match for him. He ended our marriage after much contemplation and with a lot of angst.

It took awhile, but I picked up the pieces and moved on. I never did change much about myself, although I am a work in progress. I met a man who loves me - flaws and all and have continued to build a great life for myself.

My XH wanted me back within six months of our marriage ending, although he was too afraid to say it at the time. His tone changed when we spoke, the way he looked at me was different and I could feel his pining like a physical pull. 

Within a year, he admitted his feelings and asked for another chance. He got out of the fog and he realized that after 12 years of marriage, he had a wife who loved him completely, was willing to work with him to improve the marriage and support him completely. We had a history that was irreplacable and a life that we'd built together that he belatedly realized his was so, so lucky to have. My "issues" no longer mattered to him, not the way that had before because while they did exist and they could be annoying from time to time, they were primarily a justification for his wandering - his admission, not mine!

Unfortunately for him, the time for reconciliation had passed. Through a lot of personal work and effort, I had moved on. He dumped the woman he left me for; while she could meet his "dreams" 20% of the time, it turned out that the other 80%, she could not. You know, that old 80/20 rule...

He currently is a 35 year old man living with roommates, with no savings and an uncertain future. I feel badly for him. He had a great life; a wife who adored/supported him, a house and all the trappings of middle class suburbia, lots of extended in-law family that respected, admired and loved him, travel plans and a great career. 

I am still his friend and we talk at least once a week. I am encouraging him to go back to school or start a new career, to save money and to date. It's really hard to watch him struggle. I believe in my heart that he'll find his way again, but I don't think there will be a day that passes by that he won't look back and remember what he threw away.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

Once you're defogged, you'll realize that this other woman was never a viable option for the future. You're riding on a wave of pseudo confidence generated by a woman who, at most, considers you a carnival ride, _"She always refers to our time together as "having fun" but avoids any talk of anything more than that."_ You're drunk on this pseudo confidence, the way a drunk is with liquid courage; you'll come down eventually.

*In the meantime, tell your wife what you've done.*
_(I mean this seriously, you need to go ahead and let her in on your secret world.)_

T


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## Pointegirl (Nov 21, 2012)

TCx said:


> You make an interesting point here but I doubt that he's read the book that your basing some of your idea on. ie - He's probably not familiar with the term 'love language'... or how many there are, etc etc... hint hint.


No, probably not. However, if he really wants to make an effort to understand why his wife might have been mad, this seemed a personal example that might be useful.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Pointegirl said:


> No, probably not. However, if he really wants to make an effort to understand why his wife might have been mad, this seemed a personal example that might be useful.


Sorry, I was hinting that you should mention the book 'The 5 Love Languages', that's all.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

thatgirll007 said:


> My XH wanted me back within six months of our marriage ending, although he was too afraid to say it at the time. His tone changed when we spoke, the way he looked at me was different and I could feel his pining like a physical pull.
> 
> Within a year, he admitted his feelings and asked for another chance. He got out of the fog and he realized that after 12 years of marriage, he had a wife who loved him completely, was willing to work with him to improve the marriage and support him completely. We had a history that was irreplacable and a life that we'd built together that he belatedly realized his was so, so lucky to have. My "issues" no longer mattered to him, not the way that had before because while they did exist and they could be annoying from time to time, they were primarily a justification for his wandering - his admission, not mine!


I feel much of what you've written is applicable to my situation, except for the fact that I have no issues financially. I'm more than able to support myself for the rest of my life by myself if necessary. It's my W that needs financial aid in the event of a separation.

I want to ask you though. Did you ever verbally abuse your husband during your marriage? And I'm talking full on raging, not just little quarrels.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

TCx said:


> Have you ever asked your sister what her opinion of your W's outbursts is? Have you done so recently and said, "_Sis... I really need an honest answer here. Is she just crazy or do you see me setting her off? Our marriage really is at stake here_"


Seeing as my sister behaves in a completely different manner to my W (never shouted at her H in 10/11 years of marriage), of course she doesn't approve of this behaviour. She just said she would support me in whatever I decided to do.



TCx said:


> I'm not saying your sister is like that but don't think that their marriage is perfect just because they don't yell at each other.


Well it's a lot more perfect than mine. My sister told me of the worst argument she had with her H (something about wanting him to help out more around the house) and I was like, "That's it? That's the worst 'argument' you've had?" I wish I could have had a peaceful (or at least non-shouting) marriage for 9 years like they have had.



Acabado said:


> Do you realize OP'smarriage is exactly the opposite? He's the one who suck it up, drop his personal boundaires, play the nice guy, the noble one, then resent her and pay back by cheating on her. Conflict avoidance/passive agressiveness at finest.


That's a pretty great summary of my situation actually.



Acabado said:


> BW probably resent OP for not standing up to her.


I don't know about that. Typically when I stand up to her (which is not often, I admit), she ups the "crazy woman" ante. It's like she never wants to lose a big shouting/anger match between us and will do whatever it takes to beat me in the rage stakes. It's gotten to the point where I've given up trying to stand up to her or reason with her.



alte Dame said:


> I urge you again to talk to her honestly. I can't believe that she doesn't know that you have disengaged emotionally.


Of course she knows. This can't keep up for much longer. At some stage, it needs to come to a head.



alte Dame said:


> And for your part, Targ, how is your 'fog' now?


Getting better I think. I've been so caught up with being depressed that I don't even feel like thinking about the OW sometimes. I just want to focus on what I want from this marriage, and truth be told, I'm leaning more towards separation (especially after speaking to my sister).

If I'm completely honest, however, I'm still not 100% sure if me wanting a separation is influenced by the OW or not. I think it might be which is why the 'fog' is still hanging around at least to some degree.

Thanks again for all the opinions. Sorry if I couldn't respond to all of them.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Targ - the bottom line is that you need to be less selfish and self centered. TELL YOUR WIFE what is going on. Let her decide with the benefit of full knowledge. That also frees you to make a decision in the light of day - with a wife who has the same information you have.

Quit trying to figure out what to do while you are in the shadows and fogged by your affair. You started this thread and pretty much every one of your posts indicates that you don't really care for your wife anymore. So sh*t or get off the pot. It's really that simple.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Targ said:


> I don't know about that. Typically when I stand up to her (which is not often, I admit), she ups the "crazy woman" ante.


Bingo. You don't have children, obviously. 

Children use this technique to manipulate their parents all the time. What they do is they act out and when the parents push back, the kids inevitably escalate their behavior and the parents back down or buy them something to bribe 'good behavior'. The kids see that this gets them what they want and so they act out more and more and more.

There is lots of information out there on how to handle these types of situations. The key is to stay calm no matter how bad she gets... but also to simply say, "I will no longer tolerate this kind of behavior. I am going to walk away and we are going to talk about this when you are calm. If you are unable to be calm them I will simply do what I want, without regard for your point of view, until you can speak to me in a calm and collected manner". 

Typically, she should try to engage you in the fight and you just keep saying the above. It will shock her because you are breaking the pattern that you've created for yourselves.



Targ said:


> It's like she never wants to lose a big shouting/anger match between us and will do whatever it takes to beat me in the rage stakes.


Because you have always backed down. This is a classic struggle for power and you have lost. Now she knows that she can get whatever she wants if she acts crazy.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

TCx said:


> Now she knows that she can get whatever she wants if she acts crazy.



So, you're saying that the "crazy wife" wanted her husband to have a secret affair? Yeah, that "crazy wife" strategy is working brilliantly for her...


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Targ, please check if your wife has NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) or BPD (borderline Personality Disorder).

My wife has it. I only realized it after I came here and get help. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...-came-out-fog-ran-away-14-years-marriage.html


Your wife is very similar to my wife in many ways. What I felt is very similar to yours. 

My advice: Do not reason or even think of communicating with a NPD/BPD. Go straight to divorce and be happy after.


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## thatgirll007 (Dec 14, 2010)

Targ said:


> I feel much of what you've written is applicable to my situation, except for the fact that I have no issues financially. I'm more than able to support myself for the rest of my life by myself if necessary. It's my W that needs financial aid in the event of a separation.
> 
> I want to ask you though. Did you ever verbally abuse your husband during your marriage? And I'm talking full on raging, not just little quarrels.


Can you support your XW, yourself and your new woman and still be comfortable financially? These issues will come into play in the event of a divorce.

I never verbally abused my XH or anyone else for that matter. I fully agree that if things are as bad as you say they are with your wife's temper, then she needs to stop. I don't believe she's going to do that on her own. You can no longer tolerate (i.e., sit around, detach, be silent, yell back. etc.) this type of behavior from her. 

Whether you stay in your marriage to your W or not, this needs to change immediately. You need to tell her that you are not her emotional punching bag and that you will not tolerate being emotionally abused anymore. Period. And the next time she attempts to do it, remove yourself from the situation, letting her know that when she gets herself under control that you are more than willing to talk and come to some sort of compromise about whatever situation has triggered her temper. 

But that's what you do when you're attempting to establish a healthy relationship. Instead of doing that, you are engaging in escape behavior (having an affair, romanticizing the OW, etc.). For whatever reason, it is easier for you to do this than to face up to both you and your W's problems.

When you married this woman, you did so knowing that she had a temper issue and believing that you would still be faithful and happy with her. It's jarring to come to the realization that you can not be the person that you thought/think you were/are.

Factually, a few things are clear.

1.) Your W's temper is more than you can handle.

2.) Instead of addressing this issue head on and establishing solid boundaries, you have engaged in escapist behavior.

3.) Based on the information you have shared, your OW may not even love you.

I am not like every other BS here. I do believe that it is possible to fall out of love with your spouse. I do believe it is possible to fall in love with someone else. I also believe that this happening may be 0.1% of the cases of divorce and infidelity that we see. Your situation, I believe, does not fall into that 0.1%.

What you are doing is like trying to reverse heart disease with a knee brace. Wearing the knee brace feels good and gives your body more stability, but your heart's still diseased. Your OW is a distraction from the problems that you have, not the solution.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

*tell your wife now*.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Eli-Zor said:


> TCx :- your making excuses for Targ, if he is truly remorseful about his affair and wants his marriage to work he would be doing everything he can. If you wish to debate this further - start your own thread.
> 
> Apologies Targ for the thread jack.


Ditto...TCx sounds like you are teaching Targ how to cake-eat. I dare say, you even sound like his OW incognito.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Ditto...TCx sounds like you are teaching Targ how to cake-eat.


If that's your interpretation then either I'm not communicating effectively or you're misreading my posts. I make no excuses for his actions; I offer possible explanations for different situations that he raises.

My goal is to give him information. Ask yourself what your goal is; especially given that the above post offers no perspective or relevant personal experience to give him insight.



RightfulRiskTaker said:


> I dare say, you even sound like his OW incognito.


RRT, I recognize that you're very likely still in the throes of your own BS fog but I think that you need to take a step back for a minute and possibly even reread this post. 

If my position offends you or causes you undue stress, I would encourage you to add me to your ignore list. This will spare you the stress that you apparently feel from reading my posts.

So, if we're done making wild and baseless accusations and hijacking the thread, can we please get back to the topic at hand?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

TCx
What the topic at hand? This is the title of the thread: "Just ended affair. Finding it hard to cope".
The earlier thread was about feeling himself foggie, doubting his perception.

And you tell people her who put in doubt whatever perception of his marriage they are hijacking the thread but you teaching him how to manage her so called temper tantrums is not?

What the topic at hand?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't see any remorse whatsoever for his betrayal of his wife. For breaking it off with his OW, damned skippy, but not for whom he betrayed. Oh, he has regrets...of that I'm sure, but regrets are not remorse.

I'll start believing the remorseful bit when he comes here and tells us he's told his BW everything.

Where it goes from there is anyone's guess.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> Targ, please check if your wife has NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) or BPD (borderline Personality Disorder).
> 
> My wife has it. I only realized it after I came here and get help.
> 
> ...


The OP is the one who is having an affair and has admitted he may be having a difficult time filtering through his affair fog trying to see reality clearly, and seeing any value in his marriage, and you are trying to suggest it's his W that has a narcissistic personality disorder? I hope this is sarcasm... His W isn't the one who has strayed, all we know is from the OP's foggy description of her as being verbally abusive and unappreciative. But she is the only one still in the marriage.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Acabado said:


> TCx
> What the topic at hand? This is the title of the thread: "Just ended affair. Finding it hard to cope".
> The earlier thread was about feeling himself foggie, doubting his perception.
> 
> ...


Indeed, there is a theme. 

Posters should remind themselves TCx is a wayward.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Reading this thread is quite depressing; Tcx is a classic 'enabler'. Targ has zeroed in on everything he says and is in the process of confirmatory bias.

Such a shame as Targ did, at first, seem to be starting to 'get it'.

Then one more poster chimes in with the narcissism suggestion and Targ has been lost back to his own sea of self justified betrayal.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Acabado said:


> TCx
> What the topic at hand? This is the title of the thread: "Just ended affair. Finding it hard to cope".


Let's review the first post, shall we?



Targ said:


> Just ended a 1 year affair. Wife does not know.
> 
> My head is spinning. The "fog" has gone into overdrive. I can't stop thinking about the OW, thinking she is the woman of my dreams.
> 
> ...





Acabado said:


> And you tell people here [sic] who put in doubt whatever perception of his marriage they are hijacking the thread but you teaching him how to manage her so called temper tantrums is not?


No, I tell people that they are hijacking his thread when they start to discuss my motives and personality.

This is not a game; this is his life and it's up to him to make the choices that are right for him. If you would like to discuss the motivations behind our different methodologies then let's open a separate thread to do so. I would actually enjoy that discussion because I really would like to gain insight into what it is that people here are trying to achieve by bullying waywards rather than simply presenting them with unbiased information.

This thread is about Targ and his situation. You help him your way, I'll help him in mine.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *TCx*
> This thread is about Targ and his situation. *You help him your way, I'll help him in mine*.



How about starting with : -

Telling your wife the whole truth , give her the full time-line of the affair and identify the OW. Throw the OW under the bus. 

Write a NC letter, tell your parents and hers the truth of your affair

Do not blame your wife is any way for your affair.

Do not pick on her failings as you perceive them , do you really think that a spouse does not sense something is wrong. She is dealing with an unseen enemy - YOUR ADULTERY, YOUR LIES, YOUR DECEIT, YOUR WITHDRAWAL FROM HER AND YOUR OW.

Your marriage issues were 50% yours, that balance changed when you cheated.


Of course you can follow the advice given by pro-affair sites :-



> Hide the truth
> Lie - include lying by omission
> Deny
> Gaslight
> ...



Choose any of the above as your reason to not work on your marriage or make a start and be honest, either give your marriage a chance or get out.

Marriage issues can be resolved if dealt with by two equals, or your not compatible and both of you can decide to move on. You can be guided to deceive or demonstrate your willingness to show honesty by your actions.

Either keep the title wayward for earn the title "former wayward" and regain your integrity.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Acabado said:


> And you tell people her who put in doubt whatever perception of his marriage they are hijacking the thread but you teaching him how to manage her so called temper tantrums is not?


The thread is supposed to be about helping him stay with NC; that's what he asked for. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that in order to help him with that he would need to:

Decide that he wants stay with his W
Decide that he wants to work hard on his marriage

My read on him is that he wants to leave and that he's looking for reasons (or excuses) to do so. Why would he want to do that if he views her as 'crazy' AND wants to go chasing after a woman who was just having 'fun' with him?

The first thing that he has to do is decide if he wants to stay to actually work it out. To me, that means three things:

Decide that he doesn't want OW
Decide that he can live with the 'crazy' woman a bit longer provided that there is hope that he can make her not 'crazy' (which is my angle)
Decide that there are things that he can do to modify his own behavior to better relate to her

These two do not work on their problems; I think we'd all agree that much is clear. In order to be able to work on their problems they both need to relate to each other. If he's unwilling to work on their communication and issues and do the 'heavy lifting', then they are doomed and there is no need to tell her of the A until after the ink is signed on the divorce agreement.

Because if he does, I suspect that the resulting fallout from making them adversaries in the courts will simply lengthen their healing process.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

"there is no need to tell her of the A until after the ink is signed on the divorce agreement."

Straight from the affair manual. Lie , lie by omission , lie why your getting divorced, blame the D on everything else but the affair and when it is to late for her to do anything about it, throw the affair in her face. Nice one.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

TCx said:


> My read on him is that he wants to leave and that he's looking for reasons (or excuses) to do so. Why would he want to do that if he views her as 'crazy' AND wants to go chasing after a woman who was just having 'fun' with him?
> 
> The first thing that he has to do is decide if he wants to stay to actually work it out. To me, that means three things:
> 
> ...


My read is that he is looking for a way to get with his AP in a way that allows him to not have to deal with the consequences of his marriage. He is telling himself its over with his AP in order that he can convince himself he is back on the high road, then as soon as he feels the fog is lifted and he really is back on the high road (whilst still offering nothing of the actual truth to his W, and whilst not "actually" being back on moral high ground just pretending to himself) so that he can somehow end his marriage with a clean conscience and then resume pursuing the so-called woman of his dreams (his AP).

It is cognitive dissonance, he is not actually seeking a way to cope with NC, he is seeking a way to escape his moral dilemna... and until he actually comes clean with the truth to his W there is no way for him to get out of it. IMO, TCx, your advice is merely offering him an angle to get around dealing with a "crazy narcissistic abusive woman" (whom I realize you did not label as such, but it has merely come about out of this thread).


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> "there is no need to tell her of the A until after the ink is signed on the divorce agreement."
> 
> Straight from the affair manual. Lie , lie by omission , lie why your getting divorced, blame the D on everything else but the affair and when it is to late for her to do anything about it, throw the affair in her face. Nice one.


Consider your own history as a BS. After D-Day there was shock and quite a lot of anger. If he decides on a divorce then there is no need to have the divorce proceedings clouded by that much anger/hatred/desire for revenge.

If he decides on divorce, it's going to be hard enough as it is.

And if she does have anger management issues and she's not prone to self-reflection, she's going to be a BS with a mission... destroy him in the only way she can... financially.

No matter what he's done (lie, cheat or be insensitive], he does not deserve financial ruin. Again, it all comes down to his choice, "do I stay or do I go".


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

The OP was asking for help with his situation, not justification for his actions.

TCx is still using every thread as a way to justify his own infidelities. He should really start another one of his own threads.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Lon said:


> IMO, TCx, your advice is merely offering him an angle to get around dealing with a "crazy narcissistic abusive woman" (whom I realize you did not label as such, but it has merely come about out of this thread).


Fair enough, but I don't need to handle the rest of the angles because others are covering that base.

And I don't actually think that she's a narcissist (ie - suffers from NPD). I know at least one person that truly does have NPD. I just think that her behavior is a learned response. One that is manageable.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Telling Targ to recognize his wife's predicament and the position he has placed her in - One where she is insecure and vulnerable therefore unsafe - and asking him to be responsible for his emotions and actions is useless...He has no feelings for her and has completely detached from her. But I have been there as a BS and will say it anyway.

She knows it and reacts to his rejection subtle and otherwise. She has been living in a more intense reactive mode from the day he met the OW. A BS unknowingly living under the covering of deceit knows they are not safe because cues from their WS are often uncaring, disrespectful and disregarding and even if he is caring, etc. she knows it's feigned. This unsafety from a man who was and is supposed to protect her but has chosen to use her time to protect someone else. She is living in a betrayal fog where she knows something is wrong but doesn't know yet what exactly it is. It is extremely difficult to function this way everyday...Many, many, nights of tears (hers) when his back is turned while he is daydreaming about tomorrows with AP. The last thing she hopes the something wrong will be, is another woman. She tries hard to fix things only to be hijacked by disregard again because oftentimes when her husband feels disrespected it is due to her frequent reaction and resultant anger that escalates when he continually crosses a boundary she has previously stated and established. She ponders why he says things that don't make any sense even when they fight and recognizes that she is traumatized by his repeated boundary crossing. She is on a treadmill going nowhere while the WS is taking a walk in different parks with AP, mentally and actually. 

Sounds like you used your wife to get whatever you wanted and now she isn't good enough - which is calculating and manipulative. People in relationships have a dance that eventually lead to marriage. I think you want her to recognize that you are out of step and out of sync on her own and by your non-verbal cues, while you create your other dance. Throwing your wife under the bus while staying married to her, expecting her to magically win you over while she doesn't even know she is competing, expecting her to fall in line with a measure the OW set, disregarding her time and care, having her trapped in a maze of pretense are very dishonoring actions, almost ruthless and by far a horrible form of mental abuse. Hanging out in your marriage until the OW wants a serious relatioship is a daunting testament of who you really are, fog or no fog.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

TCx said:


> Fair enough, but I don't need to handle the rest of the angles because others are covering that base.
> 
> And I don't actually think that she's a narcissist (ie - suffers from NPD). I know at least one person that truly does have NPD. I just think that her behavior is a learned response. One that is manageable.


This isn't about angles though... I don't even think Targ has said what he wants on this thread though? Until he decides what he will do, no advice anyone here gives can help him. If he wants a divorce, he can have one, thats how it works: nothing stopping him. If he wants his marriage to work, that requires alot more effort from both but especially him at this point. If he wants to change who his wife is, that is impossible but he can make his boundaries and she can choose to respect them, and vice versa. But it requires him to make a choice.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I haven't read any responses, but all I want to say is put yourself in your wife's shoes. Then you can ask yourself how are you going to cope.

Think of your wife. How will she cope when she finds out about the affair?

Let me tell you. Your better off telling her ASAP and the whole truth. Holding it in will only make matters worse. You decided to make this choice. Own up to it and be a man.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

TCx said:


> Consider your own history as a BS. After D-Day there was shock and quite a lot of anger. If he decides on a divorce then there is no need to have the divorce proceedings clouded by that much anger/hatred/desire for revenge.
> 
> If he decides on divorce, it's going to be hard enough as it is.
> 
> ...


The anger comes from being deceived, not from finding out the truth. He already set the ball rolling on that, there will be no sparing the pain. As for how she will react, there is no way to predict that, maybe she will be vengeful, maybe like I was she will just try to preserve her own dignity as much as possible, but whatever she does is what she needs to do to begin healing from the betrayal, it is cruel to deny her that.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

TCx said:


> Per your request.... Have a go at me if it will make you feel better.


Sorry. Spent time on one of your original threads. Then you deleted it when the majority of posts (mine included) were advising something which countered your set mind. A total waste of time.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Lon said:


> but whatever she does is what she needs to do to begin healing from the betrayal, it is cruel to deny her that.


I completely agree. All I'm saying is that she doesn't need to do that healing during the divorce process. The betrayal has already occurred and there's nothing that can be done about that now.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

TCx said:


> I completely agree. All I'm saying is that she doesn't need to do that healing during the divorce process. The betrayal has already occurred and there's nothing that can be done about that now.


If it's not a no-fault divorce state she surely does. Even if it isn't, the sooner the better, there is no good time to break the news of infidelity, in my experience sooner is better than later.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

This thread has devolved into personal back and forth attacks that border on violations of forum rules regarding treating each other with respect. Keep in mind that this thread is about the OP's concerns, and not a forum for attacking those who reply. He can dismiss the opinions that do not meet his needs. Disagreeing with a response can be done respectfully, without labelling other members or making unsubstantiated claims.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

I should have read about 50% or less of your posts, all I can say is...

NICE TRY JUSTIFYING YOUR INFIDELITY. NOW tell her everything asap and go for what you want out of your life, you have no idea how miserable she is going to be when she comes to know no matter what she has done to you. You are partly responsible for letting her treat you badly for so long.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

RightfulRiskTaker said:


> Telling Targ to recognize his wife's predicament and the position he has placed her in - One where she is insecure and vulnerable therefore unsafe - and asking him to be responsible for his emotions and actions is useless...He has no feelings for her and has completely detached from her. But I have been there as a BS and will say it anyway.
> 
> She knows it and reacts to his rejection subtle and otherwise. She has been living in a more intense reactive mode from the day he met the OW. A BS unknowingly living under the covering of deceit knows they are not safe because cues from their WS are often uncaring, disrespectful and disregarding and even if he is caring, etc. she knows it's feigned. This unsafety from a man who was and is supposed to protect her but has chosen to use her time to protect someone else. She is living in a betrayal fog where she knows something is wrong but doesn't know yet what exactly it is. It is extremely difficult to function this way everyday...Many, many, nights of tears (hers) when his back is turned while he is daydreaming about tomorrows with AP. The last thing she hopes the something wrong will be, is another woman. She tries hard to fix things only to be hijacked by disregard again because oftentimes when her husband feels disrespected it is due to her frequent reaction and resultant anger that escalates when he continually crosses a boundary she has previously stated and established. She ponders why he says things that don't make any sense even when they fight and recognizes that she is traumatized by his repeated boundary crossing. She is on a treadmill going nowhere while the WS is taking a walk in different parks with AP, mentally and actually.
> 
> *Sounds like you used your wife to get whatever you wanted and now she isn't good enough* - which is calculating and manipulative. People in relationships have a dance that eventually lead to marriage. I think you want her to recognize that you are out of step and out of sync on her own and by your non-verbal cues, while you create your other dance. Throwing your wife under the bus while staying married to her, expecting her to magically win you over while she doesn't even know she is competing, expecting her to fall in line with a measure the OW set, disregarding her time and care, having her trapped in a maze of pretense are very dishonoring actions, almost ruthless and by far a horrible form of mental abuse. Hanging out in your marriage until the OW wants a serious relatioship is a daunting testament of who you really are, fog or no fog.


I feel your post is a harsh assessment of me, but mostly fair and accurate. I know my behaviour at the moment towards my W is abhorrent and I feel **** about it, to put it bluntly.

I do not, however, agree with the bolded bit. I am not really sure I have gained anything out of this marriage (maybe you want to call that fog-talk or rewriting history, but that's how I feel at the moment). In terms of her only now not being good enough. That's not quite right either. Like I have said before, I have never felt sure she was my soul mate. There were many moments of regret in my marriage, but I tried to make it work and stuck it out. Of course meeting the OW changed things as I started to question if it was worth going through what I have to (again, this might be fog talk).

If we do, in fact, separate, she would at least have gained financially from it, while I would look back and remember some good times, but what would mostly stick out would be the terrible times when I endured a level of abuse that I wouldn't want any of my close friends or family members to go through.

Having said that, things have been mostly fine in the last few days and she has not gone into "crazy" mode since the episode with me being late from the gym.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Thewife said:


> I should have read about 50% or less of your posts, all I can say is...
> 
> NICE TRY JUSTIFYING YOUR INFIDELITY. NOW tell her everything asap and go for what you want out of your life, you have no idea how miserable she is going to be when she comes to know no matter what she has done to you. You are partly responsible for letting her treat you badly for so long.


I'm not sure if I have used her behaviour to "justify" my infidelity. I know what I did was wrong. But they are two separate issues.

I think I would have cheated with the OW even if my W was a model wife. The affair is 100% on me. But certainly her behaviour makes it difficult for me to be certain that I want to make this marriage work even after the affair has ended.


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Targ said:


> If we do, in fact, separate, she would at least have gained financially from it, while I would look back and remember some good times, but what would mostly stick out would be the terrible timeswhen *I endured a level of abuse* that I wouldn't want any of my close friends or family members to go through.


The underlined words = fog talk.

I don't buy the bolder part. You are not suffering from battered husband syndrome. So, your wife has a temper. Did you not realized this prior to getting married.? Why don't you communicate more and assert some boundaries? Or, you can keep doing what you're doing. How's that working for ya? 
You need to own up to the fact that you are 50% at fault (if not more) for your marriage being terrible. Now, since it's sooooo miserable, you're ready to bail. WOW!! you are a piece of work.

Good luck with your next marriage. I'll guarantee it will be just as bad, if not worse. 

*You need to change*. It's not your wife, it's how she is reacting to you. IMO


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Silverlining said:


> The underlined words = fog talk.
> 
> I don't buy the bolder part. You are not suffering from battered husband syndrome.


Well I appreciate your opinions. But you have no idea what I have been through in the last 9 years of my marriage.

I think your words are based on the low opinion you have of me, which is fair enough since I have done and am doing a terrible thing.



Silverlining said:


> So, your wife has a temper. Did you not realized this prior to getting married.?


Yes. I am very poor at setting boundaries and was too much of a nice guy. I think most men would have terminated the relationship much earlier than I did.



Silverlining said:


> Why don't you communicate more and assert some boundaries? Or, you can keep doing what you're doing. How's that working for ya?
> You need to own up to the fact that you are 50% at fault (if not more) for your marriage being terrible. Now, since it's sooooo miserable, you're ready to bail. WOW!! you are a piece of work.


Can you give some examples on setting boundaries? For example, what should I say will happen if she goes ballistic again?



Silverlining said:


> Good luck with your next marriage. I'll guarantee it will be just as bad, if not worse.


Ok, great. Maybe marriage just isn't cut out for me. I don't think I'd mind being single for the rest of my life. I've done the marriage thing and it didn't work out so well. I think I might actually enjoy just being by myself.

What's the difference anyway? I'm never going to have kids with my W. I don't think I want my kids to see their mother shouting like a crazed woman at their dad (or, god forbid, at them). So there won't ever be kids if I stay in this marriage.



Silverlining said:


> *You need to change*. It's not your wife, it's how she is reacting to you. IMO


Yes, I agree I need to change. I'm not perfect, in fact far from it. But suggesting her behaviour is entirely my fault shows how biased you are.


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

Targ, all i keep hearing is how bad your marriage is/was. 

it's obvious you want out..... DO IT, ALREADY!


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

cledus_snow said:


> Targ, all i keep hearing is how bad your marriage was.
> 
> it's obvious you want out..... DO IT, ALREADY!


I hate to admit it, but I lack the balls to pull the trigger.

I would have done it after the whole flare up with my being late from the gym, but I was having family over for Christmas that day (and staying over for a few days) and didn't want to create a scene.

Since then, she has been on her best behaviour and I would look like an ass if I told her I wanted a divorce now. Although I plan to have a talk with her once my family leaves. See if I can set some "boundaries" although I'm not really sure what that entails.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Here is an example of a boundary, forgive me if it's too redundant: Before you get married you choose a lifelong partner for better for worse etc., forsaking all others. Therefore when any little girl comes by flashing more than her lashes, your boundary is to look and run the other way, go home with a big hug, a warm smile and a bunch of flowers for the woman who put up with you when no one else was willing to. Hope that helps. P.S. When you set some boundaries for yourself, then you can think about helping her to set hers.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Targ said:


> I hate to admit it, but I lack the balls to pull the trigger.


Seriously, Targ? I am more and more inclined to just tell you to grow up.

You're married to a woman who you think is verbally abusive, i.e., she bosses you around. You don't honestly address this. Instead, you are passive aggressive and silently petulant, like an angry child. Then you meet your dream girl, but instead of manning up and dealing with your marital problems, you slink around in an affair, seeing the OW in secret the way a boy would defy parents who disapproved of his perfect love.

But your W isn't a parent whose discipline you have to heed or fear. You're supposed to be equal partners & you're supposed to deal with one another in an atmosphere of mutual respect. You really need to start acting like a man with some honor. You will like yourself much better if you can do that.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Targ, I agree with LoveIsForever (post #118 above) that the behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, irrational arguments, lack of impulse control, and verbal abuse -- are some of the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Of course, only a professional can diagnose BPD (i.e., determine whether her BPD traits meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD). 

Yet, even when the traits fall far below that diagnostic level, they still can be strong enough to destroy a marriage and make your life miserable. At issue, then, is whether your W has most BPD traits at a moderate to strong level.

Significantly, I don't know the answer to that question. I nonetheless am confident that you can spot such strong traits when you know what warning signs to look for. There is a world of difference between diagnosing your W (which only professionals can do) and spotting the red flags, i.e., strong occurrences of the traits. There is nothing subtle about BPD traits such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and fear of abandonment.

Yet, if your W actually does exhibit moderate to strong traits of BPD, you should be seeing more traits that the ones you've complained about so far. I therefore ask whether, over your 9-year marriage, you also have seen most of the following behaviors:


1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction;
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"
3. Controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;
4. Irrational jealousy and lack of trust;
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you,;
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about the next day;
7. Low self esteem;
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours;
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone;
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) -- for the first six months -- that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;
16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence (e.g., her conviction that you had been stalking her).
If most of those traits sound very familiar, I suggest that you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two *by yourself* -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you've been dealing with. 

I also suggest that, while you're waiting for an appointment, you read my description of BPD traits in Maybe's thread at My list of hell!. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, Targ.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Targ said:


> *I hate to admit it, but I lack the balls to pull the trigger.*
> 
> I would have done it after the whole flare up with my being late from the gym, but I was having family over for Christmas that day (and staying over for a few days) and didn't want to create a scene.
> 
> Since then, she has been on her best behaviour and I would look like an ass if I told her I wanted a divorce now. Although I plan to have a talk with her once my family leaves. *See if I can set some "boundaries" although I'm not really sure what that entails*.


The first bolded part - you pulled the trigger when you had the affair...how arrogant to think you are holding all the cards..

second bolded parts - you better look at your own boundaries before you start setting some for her---once again how arrogant.


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Targ said:


> Well I appreciate your opinions. But you have no idea what I have been through in the last 9 years of my marriage.


Again, did you read Love Busters? Resentment and angry out busts are surefire ways to kill a loving relationship. 



Targ said:


> I think your words are based on the low opinion you have of me, which is fair enough since I have done and am doing a terrible thing.


I don't have a low opinion of you. You have made poor choices in your life and you are playing the victim. You are a grown man. You need to deal with the poor choices you've made. Own up to the fact that you are flawed. You are not a loyal, moral, or honest individual. You blame your wife for the problems in the marriage. I think you have an inflated ego.




Targ said:


> Yes. I am very poor at setting boundaries and was too much of a nice guy. I think most men would have terminated the relationship much earlier *than I did*.


Past tense? You mentally ended the relationship with your wife when you cheated on her. Why not confess to your infidelities? What are you afraid of? 



Targ said:


> Yes, I agree I need to change. I'm not perfect, in fact far from it. But suggesting her behaviour is entirely my fault shows how biased you are.


I never said her behavior was entirely your fault. But, what do you expect your wife's reaction to be when you are late for breakfast and too inconsiderate to inform her you will be late and if she's hungry she can eat without you. You are only thinking about yourself. How would you've reacted if it was done to you?

BTW are your parents still married?? Do you have any siblings??

A marriage is a partnership. 50/50. Equals. You do not view your wife as an equal. You think you are better than her. You felt the OW was more of an equal. You don't respect your wife. IMO


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Uptown said:


> Yet, even when the traits fall far below that diagnostic level, they still can be strong enough to destroy a marriage and make your life miserable. At issue, then, is whether your W has most BPD traits at a moderate to strong level.


Thanks for your post. I think those traits used to be a lot stronger earlier in our marriage. In the last few months or so, she has toned them down a little, although they do flare up from time to time. I'm wondering if me threatening to leave a couple of times has something to do with her improved behaviour.

If you have been following this thread, you would recall the incident I described where I was late home from the gym and her reaction was completely out of proportion to my mistake.

There has, however, been no outbursts since that incident, although it has only been barely a week since it happened.



bigtone128 said:


> The first bolded part - you pulled the trigger when you had the affair...how arrogant to think you are holding all the cards..
> 
> second bolded parts - you better look at your own boundaries before you start setting some for her---once again how arrogant.


Sorry. I was just responding to suggestions/advice from other posters on how to handle my situation.



Silverlining said:


> But, what do you expect your wife's reaction to be when you are late for breakfast and too inconsiderate to inform her you will be late and if she's hungry she can eat without you. You are only thinking about yourself. How would you've reacted if it was done to you?


Seriously, I don't think I've ever gotten overly angry with her. I may be upset or disappointed by her behaviour, but I don't think I've really ever screamed and yelled at her the way she has to me.

If it was her who was late, I would probably have let it slide. Probably would have found something else to do to pass the time while waiting for her to get home. And then I would have said:

"Hey, you're late."
"Sorry."
"That's ok. Let's have breakfast."

No histrionics.



Silverlining said:


> BTW are your parents still married?? Do you have any siblings??


Yes, to both. Go back a few pages and read the discussion I had with my sister where she says she has NEVER shouted at her husband. It made me feel that much more depressed about my marriage.



Silverlining said:


> A marriage is a partnership. 50/50. Equals. You do not view your wife as an equal. You think you are better than her. You felt the OW was more of an equal. You don't respect your wife. IMO


For someone who thinks he's better than his wife, I seem to be a bit of a doormat to her. She can basically scream and yell at me, bullying me into getting whatever she wants until I give in. I'd hate to think what it would be like if I felt inferior to her.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Targ said:


> Thanks for your post. I think those traits used to be a lot stronger earlier in our marriage. In the last few months or so, she has toned them down a little, although they do flare up from time to time. I'm wondering if me threatening to leave a couple of times has something to do with her improved behaviour.
> 
> If you have been following this thread, you would recall the incident I described where I was late home from the gym and her reaction was completely out of proportion to my mistake.
> 
> ...


You didn't scream or yell at her, you just cheated. How big of you.


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

Malaise said:


> You didn't scream or yell at her, you just cheated. How big of you.


Yes, I'm a **** person for doing that. I've never denied that. But again these are two separate issues i.e.

My cheating - which is 100% my fault, not due to her behaviour
Her behaviour which is making it hard for me to want to make this marriage work


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

What I hear is an unapologetic person justifying their actions----let you in on a secret--you have NO clue as to what your spouse is going through. No clue. I used to see spouses who were devastated by affairs and think "why don't they get over it?" and "they must have done something to deserve it" UNTIL it happened to me! Then I UNDERSTOOD - a BS has nothing to do with the affair, a BS did not deserve what she/he got, your marriage had problems but could have been resolved within the marriage. NOW it is unlikely it will survive and you are moaning over your spouse getting angry....you have bigger fish to fry..


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## Targ (Dec 13, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> What I hear is an unapologetic person justifying their actions----let you in on a secret--you have NO clue as to what your spouse is going through. No clue. I used to see spouses who were devastated by affairs and think "why don't they get over it?" and "they must have done something to deserve it" UNTIL it happened to me! Then I UNDERSTOOD - a BS has nothing to do with the affair, a BS did not deserve what she/he got, your marriage had problems but could have been resolved within the marriage. NOW it is unlikely it will survive and you are moaning over your spouse getting angry....you have bigger fish to fry..


Again, I'm not justifying my actions. I have already admitted my actions are abhorrent and have claimed full responsibility for them.

MY CHEATING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY WIFE'S BEHAVIOUR! I would have cheated even if she was the perfect wife. IT IS 100% MY FAULT!

I'm only discussing her behaviour as it is making it hard for me to want this marriage to work even after the affair has ended.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

Targ said:


> I'm not sure if I have used her behaviour to "justify" my infidelity. I know what I did was wrong. But they are two separate issues.
> 
> I think I would have cheated with the OW even if my W was a model wife. The affair is 100% on me. But certainly her behaviour makes it difficult for me to be certain that I want to make this marriage work even after the affair has ended.


In this case I honestly feel that you should gather the courage to break the news to her soonest possible, marriage is not for everyone.


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## Thewife (Sep 3, 2007)

Targ said:


> I'm only discussing her behaviour as it is making it hard for me to want this marriage to work even after the affair has ended.


What makes you think that it is for you to decide whether you want this marriage or not. Tell her first and see what she wants.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Targ said:


> I'm only discussing her behaviour as it is making it hard for me to want this marriage to work even after the affair has ended.


It's like a Chicken and Egg question. 

Obviously you didn't want the marriage to work, hence your affair.

Now that your affair has ended you still don't want the marriage to work.

You need to tell your wife and move on separately. 

Seriously, I bet you will feel a helluva lot better after you tell your wife. Who knows.... it might even be the first step towards reconciliation - if you both get into individual counselling to deal with your problems.


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Thewife said:


> What makes you think that it is for you to decide whether you want this marriage or not. Tell her first and see what she wants.


Exactly ^^. I also felt it was big of him to make the choice of not having any children with his wife. I wonder how she feels about this?? 

This thread is like beating a dead horse.....


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## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Nvm


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Targ said:


> I'm only discussing her behaviour as it is making it hard for me to want this marriage to work even after the affair has ended.


hhmmm making it hard for you to want this marriage to work? too late for all that....you decision has past - let you wife kno and let her decide.....


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Targ said:


> I think those [BPD] traits used to be a lot stronger earlier in our marriage. In the last few months or so, she has toned them down a little.


Targ, if BPDers did the bullying and screaming all the time, nobody would stay married to them. The reason that guys like you and me will remain in these toxic marriages for years is that a woman with strong BPD traits will flip back and forth between loving you and devaluing you (sometimes even hating you). 

The result is that you will mistakenly believe that, if you can only figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore her to that wonderful woman you saw at the beginning of the marriage -- and whom you still get glimpses of during the good times.


> There has, however, been no outbursts since that incident, although it has only been barely a week since it happened.


High functioning BPDers typically can go 2 or 3 weeks -- sometimes even several months -- without having a temper tantrum or verbally abusing you. Those good periods will be much shorter, however, if you stop walking on eggshells and act like your true self. I therefore suggest you read about BPD traits, as LoveIsForever suggested, to see if most sound very familiar. An easy place to start is my description of them in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Example of setting boundaries with someone screaming at you:

Stand up immediatly when the screaming starts and say "Excuse me, when you are calmer and more rational, we can discuss this situation." Then leave the room. If she follows - as most screamers do - leave the house and tell her you will come home when she is ready to have a calm rational discussion about the issue.

When she belittles you or screams at you in front of others you do the same. Its called respecting yourself enough to not allow someone else to treat you this way. You just do not allow it! You calmly and softly call them on it and leave the situation. Every time! Then when the person is calmer you have a discussion on the real problem at hand, i.e. you being late and discuss ways you could respect her more - i.e. call her and let her know you are late, etc.

Boundaries are what you will and will not accept as behavior towards you. Do not accept being screamed at and she will learn it does not work.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Nobody here can definitively diagnose your W or know for sure what the 'truth' of your situation is. All we can do is read your words and respond as thoughtfully as possible.

One caveat for me in your case is based on reading other threads here for a while. That is that the difference that having both perspectives makes can be huge. You can read one thread, say the WS, and then suddenly the BS starts a thread or starts to contribute & the picture changes dramatically. In your case, I suspect that we would have a much different picture if we had your W's voice in this. My suspicion is that she knows much more than you think she knows & is hurt and upset. Just a suspicion, of course.

That being said, I keep going back to my original feeling that you should just cut bait. You're not doing anyone any favors by continuing in your marriage the way you are. You want some happiness and your W deserves to know that she is married to a man who doesn't love her at all.


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