# A "TED"talk about sex starved marriage.



## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

ARTICLE:

The Unspoken Truth About a Sex-Starved Marriage | Michele Weiner-Davis

"TED" talk video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep2MAx95m20


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Accipiter777 said:


> ARTICLE:
> 
> The Unspoken Truth About a Sex-Starved MarriageÂ*|Â*Michele Weiner-Davis
> 
> ...


One of the comments on this really cracked me up ...

'My boring and frigid ex-wife and I used to do it doggy style all the time. I'd sit up and beg, then she'd roll over and play dead."


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Two things stand out to me I recommend that the person with low desire adopt the Nike philosophy, and "Just Do It!" 

Plus, notice the changes in your spouse. She or he will be much nicer to be around. 

I think in some sexless marriages (mostly the women being the LD) the wife doesn't want sex maybe rejects him, he naturally builds up some resentment over time, maybe doesn't feel like being as affectionate towards her, isn't as nice, doesn't want to do activities with her that she may want to do and so since women are more about emotions and how they feel about the person she doesn't feel connected to him and doesn't feel like sex and then the cycle continues until they grow apart more and infidelity may occur and/or ends in divorce. 

Since my sexless marriage is due to my husband's medical problem I don't feel any resentment toward him and we are very affectionate towards each other in and out of the bedroom and love to be with each other, we just can't have sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I watched the video and with all due respect to the speaker it's an oversimplification of an oversimplification. It's like teaching arithmetic to a nine year old and expect them to do Calculus III by age 10.

The "John and Mary" couple example was beyond hilarious. I was waiting for a unicorn to come up.

Like a lot of the pop psych books she does not make an effort to root cause the issue and determine if something is fixable. "Just do it"?? Lolz galore.

Interesting video and good presentation but don't get your hopes up too high.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

I remember reading her book a few years ago. It reminds me of the _Men Are From Mars . . ._ book in that it identifies an issue, but has no real solution. Anyone can state the obvious, but finding solutions that work are very, very rare. Michelle, unfortunately, does not deliver, other than for couples who have a genuine desire to work at the issue. In which case, they are already much better off than the vast majority of sexless couples, where one partner (usually the wife) simply does not feel like making any effort to change.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

MSP said:


> I remember reading her book a few years ago. It reminds me of the _Men Are From Mars . . ._ book in that it identifies an issue, but has no real solution. Anyone can state the obvious, but finding solutions that work are very, very rare. Michelle, unfortunately, does not deliver, other than for couples who have a genuine desire to work at the issue. *In which case, they are already much better off than the vast majority of sexless couples, where one partner (usually the wife) simply does not feel like making any effort to change*.


boooo. Who are you to say that it is usually the wife? Just look around this place to see how many times it is actually the man, not the woman that is starving the marriage of sex and intimacy.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Happilymarried25 said:


> Two things stand out to me I recommend that the person with low desire adopt the Nike philosophy, and "Just Do It!"
> 
> Plus, notice the changes in your spouse. She or he will be much nicer to be around.
> 
> I think in some sexless marriages (mostly the women being the LD) the wife doesn't want sex maybe rejects him, he naturally builds up some resentment over time, maybe doesn't feel like being as affectionate towards her, isn't as nice, doesn't want to do activities with her that she may want to do and so since women are more about emotions and how they feel about the person she doesn't feel connected to him and doesn't feel like sex and then the cycle continues until they grow apart more and infidelity may occur and/or ends in divorce.


This happens a lot, but sometimes it starts the other way. 1 partner stops being affectionate, nice, meeting their other emotional needs so the other partner doesn't want sex. 

A lot of times just doing it anyway won't make your partner any more giving to your other needs and the reasons why they stopped wanting sex in the first place isn't fixed. 
The partner who wanted sex just thinks Yeah! Problem solved and stops there and the other just gets resentful again and goes back to no sex. 

She did talk about "just do it" and the rejection feeling for other things a bit too which is good.

I don't know, I like her but she didn't really say much. There are often so many issues behind the lack of sex that it's not always as simple as the example she used.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holland said:


> boooo. Who are you to say that it is usually the wife? Just look around this place to see how many times it is actually the man, not the woman that is starving the marriage of sex and intimacy.



Considering divorce statistics I would bet that the cases of LD men and HD women are self correcting via affair or outright divorce a lot faster than the other way around...

In TAM in the last year I would further say the women seem to be the likely LD a lot more - 3 to 1 to 4 to 1 easily - vs men. And for totally different reasons.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

I really enjoyed listening to her speak. Very soothing voice, at ease with understanding and reciprocation. 

I am still so disappointed that she said needs above our own when it comes to sex. 

I used to enjoy it soooooooo much, now I just don't even feel like doing it. Boo 

BUT, great video find OP!!! THANK YOU!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I like her youtube on sex starved wives
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2gmSilrmMI

I think she makes a good point about how it's just not talked about as much when the wife wants more sex.

It's being talked about more now, maybe we'll soon see that the ratio of LD men and LD women is closer than we think it is.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Holland said:


> boooo. Who are you to say that it is usually the wife? Just look around this place to see how many times it is actually the man, not the woman that is starving the marriage of sex and intimacy.


TAM, and online relationship forums in general, are vasty non-representative of the population at large, because women are far more likely to post about this stuff online than men are.

Where do I get my opinion from? Actual studies and stats, which say that it is women who are the cause of sexless marriages about 80% of the time.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

NONE of my femail friends, or my ex wifes friends complain about lack of sex, they complain about their husbands wanting it too much

most of my male friends complain about lack of sex in their MARRIAGE...I have a buddy in a long term relationship, they arent married and dont live together, and he insists the sex is great

sexless marriage only has ONE logical solution..marriageless sex...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It's not LD, it's responsive desire (RD) most of the time. The problem is that most people don't accept that it is normal. 

The term "Just do it" seems to imply that the RD person is the problem. It becomes a battle of who is the abnormal one. No one wants to be wrong so accusations of sex addict, freak, prude and frigid gets thrown around. 

Naturally, that does not work. Sex education could solve the disparate start-up styles. One person needs a warm-up time and the other does not. It requires some effort for both. 

The spontaneous desire person needs to let the RD person warm up and the RD person needs to communicate what gets them going and clear their heads. It's a win/win, both get to enjoy sex, they just get there different ways. 

The real issue is that SD/HD is accepted as the archetype of sexual response. Both styles are normal otherwise why would so many people have RD? 

I've read posts form SD/HD people using terms like frigid, prude, controlling, evil etc. Words drive attitudes so some of the solutions suggested are accusations, ultimatums, threats, resignation. 

I don't remember reading posts that suggest acceptance of the RD and ways to overcome resistance to the need for a warm-up.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can't participate in the pre-game warm-up and shoot-around if you don't get an invite from the NCAA...

Or, to be more specific, if the NCAA does not deem you worthy of an invite.

We can talk RD all we want. When one deals with a LD or NoD or RareD spouse and gets shot down faster than a Banshee in Halo, how are you going to get to RD? You can't get to RD if there's no D to begin with, or if there is D with a very fixed SLA. 

If the SLA is once a month good luck using RD to improve on that. 

A few years ago my wife used to love massages and we would often start our fun with that. Then she started accepting the massages and shutting down afterwards if the frequency did not meet her SLA. 

Remember that there's all levels of LD's out there, from the doe eyed new moms or career stressed dads (stage I) to the RD crowd (stage II) to the stage III or IV LD's some of us are dealing with. Nearly all DIY methods focus on stages I and II.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MSP said:


> TAM, and online relationship forums in general, are vasty non-representative of the population at large, because women are far more likely to post about this stuff online than men are.
> 
> Where do I get my opinion from? Actual studies and stats, which say that it is women who are the cause of sexless marriages about 80% of the time.


You are quoting old data. The prevalence of LD men comprise 50% of the overall prevalence. Male LD has increased dramatically in the last 10 years. 

Men are more vocal about their partners LD but silent when they are LD. Conversely, women are less vocal about LD husbands and more vocal about HD husband. That skewers the perception of the issue. It only seems like a women problem. 

Maybe male and female expectations of how sex should be makes people disappointed and bored by how it really is. I think porn and the media are the main drivers of outsized expectations and loss of interest in the real thing.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

There are so many sexless threads in the Sex in Marriage section that I propose TAM separate them into two different forums:

"Sex in Marriage"

"Sexless in Marriage"

I guarantee you the latter would have more postings in it than the former.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

John I think if both RD and SD people knew that its a normal feature of human sexuality, there would be less problems. 

If your wife accepted that her need for a warm up was normal, how would that change her attitude? If you both knew that the warm-up response may change and new approaches are needed, what then?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

We've been thru this in previous discussions. Heavy duty Male LD has a few obvious factors - low T or PA or stress. Heavy duty Female LD has a myriad of causes, on top of male style LD causes (hormones, PA, stress, and many others)

Look for clusters of common attributes. Why is it that every story of female LD in TAM has a bunch of common and similar symptoms (post wedding cake, 1x a month.... Too tired... Can't be bothered... Not thinking about sex...) 

The few cases of male LD that we've seen details on are all over the place and do not demonstrate this clustering to any extent...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Didn't read the article, but I did watch the video. She has it right on, even for those of us who could not experience physical arousal with physical stimulation. 

It is a deeper issue, part physical and part mental, but the ways in which the marriage dissolves are the same. The solution is more complicated, and that's about it. 

I am very impressed with her.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> We've been thru this in previous discussions. Heavy duty Male LD has a few obvious factors - low T or PA or stress. Heavy duty Female LD has a myriad of causes, on top of male style LD causes (hormones, PA, stress, and many others)
> 
> Look for clusters of common attributes. Why is it that every story of female LD in TAM has a bunch of common and similar symptoms (post wedding cake, 1x a month.... Too tired... Can't be bothered... Not thinking about sex...)
> 
> The few cases of male LD that we've seen details on are all over the place and do not demonstrate this clustering to any extent...




Wow, John! This is spot on for me. T of 300 at the age of 48. Wife starting a business and our roles changing. My job sucked a huge blue whale. I hated where my life was going and felt like I was even more stuck because I wanted to find another job, but had to wait till her business was established. I kept asking how it was going, but she didn't want to tell me because she had plans to leave. I just wanted to know when I could start another job, possibly even at a lower pay, just to find happiiness, which usually leads to better pay in the long run. 

I could not physically perform, even with oral stimulation. I was flabbergasted and even with the T levels, I had no idea what that meant. My doc wasn't enthusiastic about shots or anything. I got the impression there was nothing that could be done. 

My pride, what little optimism I had, my outlook on life sank to a deeper level. My wife's thoughts of divorce were cemented, I imagine. Topical creams were poo-poo'd because wife was going through peri. He drive was through the roof. I had no idea it was. I didn't know anything about what happened, other than getting hot and cold. Maybe a strong period with stronger cramping. What could I do about that? As far as I knew, nothing. 

No doctor would tell me. Guess she told them she was leaving me and not to tell me anything? I don't know any other reason she would not want me to know. 

So, you are correct, in my case, John. Life can be a living hell, can't it?


I wanted to add that all the she said in the video, at the end, about those feelings associated with a lack of sex are true in my case as well. They are true to this day. I will likely die early. I believe we get psychosomatic symptoms from our brains telling us there must be input for it to light up on the same regions. I think it then starts to mimic, and in some cases, shut down the immune system to reconcile the brain activities not associated with any tangible input. 

She is on to much more than she realizes folks. Much more....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Life can be hell only if you let it be hell. 

Job situations, especially. I could make two times what I make now working for any of the fabled software / services companies out west. They've asked multiple times. But I prefer to psychoanalyze toaster ovens instead of making web sites easier to use even at half the pay. 

Set your expectations "low". Don't assume that because you have experience and a bunch of sheepskins the world will be waiting for you. It does not work this way. If your wife has grandiose expectations then she needs to think rationally.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks John. My intention was not to derail the thread, but to explain how the video and your post reflected my own personal situation. I can only know what is going on with me, so I post the esperience I have, or knowledge of myself. That's why it seems I might be trying to derail, I imagine. Not so.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm convinced more than ever by reading post that men and women have to work towards understanding each other better. There seems to be a refusal to make adjustments to how we are in our relationships. 

It's not a zero sum game. We both lose or win, it does not fall to one gender. 

It seems to me that the happiest relationships I know of are between two flexible people who think for themselves. They are willing to learn and assume the best about their partner. 

Couples with stereotypical notions seem like adversaries. Like people seem to aggregate with like. Or a critical number of positive or negative coupes in a group, sets the norm. 

It's easy to get caught up in the gender wars. It only takes the belief that any behavior that is at variance with a self-refered standard is judged abnormal. You're right, he/she is wrong. No reason to compromise. I know because I often fall into that trap.


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## Tango (Sep 30, 2012)

I am sending that video to my H. I'll let you know his response.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> We've been thru this in previous discussions. *Heavy duty Male LD has a few obvious factors - low T or PA or stress. *Heavy duty Female LD has a myriad of causes, on top of male style LD causes (hormones, PA, stress, and many others)
> 
> Look for clusters of common attributes. Why is it that every story of female LD in TAM has a bunch of common and similar symptoms (post wedding cake, 1x a month.... Too tired... Can't be bothered... Not thinking about sex...)
> 
> The few cases of male LD that we've seen details on are all over the place and do not demonstrate this clustering to any extent...


I dont agree with men are simple and women are complex. Men are extremely complex. They sen simple because so much is below the surface. 

****Added after likes ****That is one basic misunderstanding. Even men think they are simple because everyone says men are simple. Why can't they be what they are without the constant pressure to deny.****

In addition to factors you mention, there is loss of attraction, low quality sex, resentment, anger, to name a few. 

We are more alike than we admit. We may arrive at the same behavior via different routes but we both get to the same place. Human's see what they expect to see.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Theseus said:


> There are so many sexless threads in the Sex in Marriage section that I propose TAM separate them into two different forums:
> 
> "Sex in Marriage"
> 
> ...


Nah, I'm tired of talking about it. It was cathartic at first ... now I'm just dwelling on something that isn't going to change.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, as they taught me in psychology school, we are alike or very similar in terms of our mental processes and mental models but not quite so alike in terms of the inputs to those processes or mental models.

In my experience men are more straightforward and direct to figure out than women. If we are talking about sex one does it for several reasons regardless of gender. But one tends to have a wider gamut of reasons for not doing it, or it ends up looking that way to their partner.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

The time guideline for TED Talks are around 15 minutes so it's impossible for her to present her ideas in depth. 

I actually followed the "Just Do It" philosopy several years ago and it helped our sex life immensely. I'm one of those women she describes, arousal first then comes desire. 




john117 said:


> I watched the video and with all due respect to the speaker it's an oversimplification of an oversimplification. It's like teaching arithmetic to a nine year old and expect them to do Calculus III by age 10.
> 
> The "John and Mary" couple example was beyond hilarious. I was waiting for a unicorn to come up.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

No disagreement - but any competent psychologist or counselor would throw a few caveats in the mix... 

In some cases their advise works - the low hanging fruit and all that. But reality is that that counseling failures don't make for interesting TED talks so...


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

john117 said:


> No disagreement - but any competent psychologist or counselor would throw a few caveats in the mix...
> 
> In some cases their advise works - the low hanging fruit and all that. But reality is that that counseling failures don't make for interesting TED talks so...


Wow, real nice. Your attitude explains a lot.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My advise comes from ten years of studying psychology... The lower level cognitive / decision making stuff, not the behavioral or clinical stuff. 

We are just beginning to understand decision making functions of the brain that aren't too far away from the "push button in cage and receive treat" level. 

Trying to abstract issues with what amounts to the most complex interaction between two individuals (sex) to a simple connect-the-dots methodology does not sound like an acceptable approach in all cases. 

From what I have read about responsive desire vs spontaneous desire, and my own experience :rofl: the approach focuses on women who basically are stuck in a chicken and egg situation - they want sex but aren't aroused yet they won't be aroused because they aren't having sex.

Within this context the "just do it" approach does work. As my design major daughter says, "fake it till you make it".

Except many situations we read about on TAM etc aren't having this problem. They aren't having sex because (a) they don't want sex innately or (b) there are external reasons with their partner that make them to not want sex. 

In case (a) you can't manufacture desire to even start thinking about being aroused (or vise versa) because sex is not in your mind. In case (b) even if you want sex and are willing to go thru the cycle of desire - arousal or vise versa it ain't happening because you're ticked off at your partner. Sex may be in your mind but resentment trumps desire. 

In other words, the model assumes that there is at least some "interest" to get started. In cases (a) and (b) the overwhelming interest is focused on NOT having sex. And that's incompatible with "just do it".


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

I like what she had to say. I think in many cases this will work, I think it would in my case if my wife would adopt it. My wife and I used to fight a lot but we were also intimate a lot. Now we don't fight at all but also have not been intimate for a long time. Guess which situation I felt better in.

When we made love often, I felt loved, in spite of the fighting. Now I feel unloved. My wife thinks things are fine because she has learned to be less angry. I would prefer some anger as at least it would show some emotion. The part of how lonely a person feels without intimacy was important. "Just do it" won't work for every situation but I bet it will make a lot of relationships better.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

john117 said:


> Trying to abstract issues with what amounts to the most complex interaction between two individuals (sex) to a simple connect-the-dots methodology does not sound like an acceptable approach in all cases.


I think you are focusing on one part of the video and missing out on the bigger message that an introduction to the topic is meant to convey. A 17-minute TED talk cannot do an exhaustive coverage of the issues involved in a sexless marriage. But just bringing the topic out in the open to the public is helpful. I imagine that there are many who don't realize that they are not the only ones suffering from a disparity in sexual desire in their marriage. I think the video does a good job of emphasizing the importance of talking about the issue! Also, it does a good job of emphasizing the damage that happens when one spouse does not realize or ignores how important this issue may be to the higher desire partner. I don't think the video is meant as a cure all for couples in a sexless marriage but it does a good job exposing how the problem cannot be ignored, that the issue can destroy relationships, and that one needs to think of how a higher desire partner suffers if the lower desire partner continues to put their needs first.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm fully aware of what you are saying and agree with it... But...

Lack of desire balance can't be helped by talking about it. We have talked about obesity for decades for all the good it has done to us, too.

Within a couple with mismatched drives talking about it will only lead to more friction. If they don't see the issue they sure as he11 aren't going to start seeing it because some therapist on TED said to talk about it...

I don't see us doing anything preventative like requiring premarital counseling and education or trying to reduce stress or build up skills needed in a marriage. Our culture is so focused on the trivial aspects of marriage, rather than long term issues like sexual compatibility.

Our high school required a course in inter personal relations (taught by a former pro football cheerleader - I kid you not) and I got to browse the text. Not ONE mention of the issue, not ONE mention of things to look for... 

Not one word to thank our prudish culture that sends all kinds of conflicting messages to young adults. 

And all of a sudden, stop the presses and "just do it"???

It's a good idea but in many mismatched desire marriages - mine included incidentally - you might as well put in a billboard on the highway and they won't notice.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I hate the "Men are from Mars...." world view because it usually describes and explains far less that it purports.


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## TryingTilda (Apr 21, 2014)

"Just do it"? I think she was right on. Once you get into it you realize you have the desire. Why do we forget, is my question.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

TryingTilda said:


> "Just do it"? I think she was right on. Once you get into it you realize you have the desire. Why do we forget, is my question.



Not all low desire partners "forget"... That's the issue.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

John 

--Does ignorance of consistent and creditable data on human sexuality invalidate the findings? *** Not talking about you but men and women in general *** 

My point is that we have it wrong. Men and women need to know and accept the fact that sexuality is highly individual. Not feeling desire and then getting into it once you start is as normal as feeling desire before starting. 

In other words, needing a jump start does not mean the RD person is being coerced. "Just do it" is too broad a concept and has negative connotations. People can assume that it means allowing your partner to get off. 

There is a right way and a wrong way. If a woman needs to use lube, a step is missing, arousal.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> John
> 
> --Does ignorance of consistent and creditable data on human sexuality invalidate the findings? *** Not talking about you but men and women in general ***
> 
> ...



First, there's not much "credible evidence" on the psychology of human sexuality that would produce earth shaking news. There are published studies etc but if we are talking the currently available ideas they're more Oprah than New England Journal of Medicine if you get my drift.

I don't feel comfortable with the level of evidence available re: RD vs SD. I know what level of evidence is needed in my little world. A lot more. Hard evidence predominantly, physiological and experimental evidence, not questionnaires.

For example, think of pressing a single button on a box when you hear a tone. We can measure the time it takes for your brain to perceive the tone, and the time for your hand to move and push the button. A bit of arithmetic gives you the time it took for the brain to realize its a tone therefore to decide to press the button.

Now make it a choice. Two sounds, and push the button only if sound A is perceived not sound B. No surprise, it takes longer to do this . A bit more arithmetic tells you how long the brain needs to decide.

In a lot of questionnaire based studies you don't have the luxury of hard data.

Then you have the Heizelberg Uncertainty Principle - observing something often changes it... Good experimental design takes care of that but still...

Finally it's our target population. Those that are successful with RD vs SD likely don't have a closet full of skeletons to deal with. But a lot of LD's are well past this stage and into full scale sex avoidance caused largely by external or internal reasons. And in many cases they are not willing to even try to change it. 

I agree with the needing a jump start part but many LD's - not all - are simply not willing to try. It's that simple. When you have couples where the LD sets the pace to once a month or do, and refuses any and all attempts to see the other side it's curtains.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> I agree with the needing a jump start part but many LD's - not all - are simply not willing to try. It's that simple. When you have couples where the LD sets the pace to once a month or do, and refuses any and all attempts to see the other side it's curtains.


I agree with a lot of what you said in that post, but even science will admit that they know very little of the hows and whys of the brain. 

What happens is sometimes it's looked at logically and while once it's all figured out, this complex system of endocrinology and brain function caused by internal and external stimulus, might actually be able to be looked at with logic, it's not at this time. 

There are so many variables, I don't think it will ever be possible to really know what someone will think outside of basic reactions or responses unless they are observed over a period of time. The trouble with that is, our biological system and the inputs change constantly and therefore the responses and reactions change. Although, less likely the reactions will change. 

But, I know for certain, it isn't all just a sudden decision to stop trying. It's based upon what we have learned about how things have worked out in the past. Think, our luck. It's based on how our bodies feel and the available understanding of the limited knowledge available before we make a decision. It's also a fact that when we do something or think something over and over, it becomes habit for our brains to default to that answer. 

That's why it's so difficult to change from LD to I want to do it. We don't believe the outcome will be any better than it was before. We don't want to feel any worse than we already do. So, it's much easier to just let it be and do anything else we can do that seems okay. 

The kicker is, nothing else will be okay if sex is lacking. It will be a nice friendship at best, but not wholly satisfying. It's a horrible situation for all involved. 

At least, that's what I think. Right or wrong.

ETA: Just do it, may be the only way to reprogram the leaned response that says, it's not worth trying. At least, at this point in science's understanding of how we function.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said in that post, but even science will admit that they know very little of the hows and whys of the brain.


There's a reason every psychology course I took except experimental ones has the "and we think it works this way" . Science at its best 



> What happens is sometimes it's looked at logically and while once it's all figured out, this complex system of endocrinology and brain function caused by internal and external stimulus, might actually be able to be looked at with logic, it's not at this time. .


There is hard evidence depending on who's paying. Did you know pupil dilation is a pretty decent measure of mental workload ? I'm sure some smart guy could wire up an orgasmometer or desireometer... Of course considering nobody has bothered to do any serious work even to the Masters & Johnson level yet I'm not holding my breath...



> There are so many variables, I don't think it will ever be possible to really know what someone will think outside of basic reactions or responses unless they are observed over a period of time. The trouble with that is, our biological system and the inputs change constantly and therefore the responses and reactions change. Although, less likely the reactions will change. .


Difficult but doable if enough funding is there. My wife does predictive modeling with Snowden sized data sets. It's doable but who's gonna write up a funding proposal to the usual government funding agencies?

Grab any question in this forum and you can be writing funding proposals in a week. But who in the NIH or some such will fund such research? Can you just see the usual Budget hawks finding out? Ain't happening.



> ETA: Just do it, may be the only way to reprogram the leaned response that says, it's not worth trying. At least, at this point in science's understanding of how we function.



With the risk of leading to resentment, duty sex, and eventual withdrawal. 

Also just do it assumes the LD will actually do it. They won't if they're withholding knowingly.

It comes back to my "stupid" vs "evil" dilemma.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holland,
I knew someone would respond to the 'usually the wife' comment.

The funny thing about this responsive theme is that it has been the basis for 90-95 percent of my/our sexual relationship.

M2 said to me early on: I don't feel it before we start. But once we get going I do. 

And I accepted that as hard wired physiology and didn't worry about it. That meant that I almost always initiated, and rejection was very rare. 

Liking each other helped. Brutally honest communication about love and lust busters helped also. 

Mindset is such a powerful thing. I accepted her LD/responsive desire just as unreservedly as she accepted my HD persona: more edgy and tense when unsatisfied. 








Holland said:


> boooo. Who are you to say that it is usually the wife? Just look around this place to see how many times it is actually the man, not the woman that is starving the marriage of sex and intimacy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
I remember the precana class we took. It asked a small set of very vanilla questions about sex including: Are you comfortable being naked in front of your spouse to be? 

If I were teaching that class I'd have 10 powerpoint slides and a little handout for folks to take away. 

A couple slides would deal with responsive desire. 

I believe many couples lose their connection when one partner evolves from feeling desire to feeling responsive desire. Could be triggered by children, menopause, anything. 

For tons of folks, their sexual communication gets lost in translation at that point. 



QUOTE=Catherine602;8724986]John 

--Does ignorance of consistent and creditable data on human sexuality invalidate the findings? *** Not talking about you but men and women in general *** 

My point is that we have it wrong. Men and women need to know and accept the fact that sexuality is highly individual. Not feeling desire and then getting into it once you start is as normal as feeling desire before starting. 

In other words, needing a jump start does not mean the RD person is being coerced. "Just do it" is too broad a concept and has negative connotations. People can assume that it means allowing your partner to get off. 

There is a right way and a wrong way. If a woman needs to use lube, a step is missing, arousal.[/QUOTE]


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

My ex was RD. I'm definitely SD. That alone didn't tell the story though. Eventually, I became tired of pursuing someone who never showed any desire of her own. Combine this with her general lack of interest in doing things with just me after we had kids (date nights, mom/dad vacations etc... one on one activities are mucho importante to me) as opposed to her constant schedule of family events, and after a few years I detached. I lost my drive to pursue her and it never came back.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

2ntnuf,
I don't believe this is like a moonshot in terms of complexity. It's difficult, but not all that complex. 

All marriages have a power dynamic. It can be constructive, destructive or more often a mix of both. 

The funny thing about that dynamic is this:
- Your own power is mostly based on loving/believing in yourself 
- The care you take in exercising it with your partner is driven by how much you love them

A constructive power dynamic allows both spouses to insist on a minimum amount of open and honest communication. 

The one thing this prevents, and it's a HUGE thing is either spouse consistently saying one thing and doing quite the opposite. 

A sex starved marriage rarely has this. 

It's very, very rare for a sex starved HD person come to TAM and say:
- My spouse openly admits they don't desire me
- They have explicitly shared what turns them off and turns them on
- They've also acknowledged that they aren't wiling to try to fix this because it isn't important to them even though they know it's causing me intense distress 

---------
Instead, the sex starved marriage is characterized by a power dynamic that enables the refuser to starve their HD partner of information just as easily as they starve them of sex itself. 
---------

But maybe this looks different to the LD spouse:
- I tried to let me HD partner know what I wanted, they didn't seem to listen or if they listened they didn't care 
- It became more and more obvious that IT wasn't good for me
- So I began to refuse to kiss them
- I started just lying there til they were done 

And you know what. They kept on. They didn't care that I didn't want to. They wanted what they wanted and that was that. So eventually I just started saying no, hoping they'd give up. But, they never do. Every once in a while I give in just to shut them up. 




2ntnuf said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said in that post, but even science will admit that they know very little of the hows and whys of the brain.
> 
> What happens is sometimes it's looked at logically and while once it's all figured out, this complex system of endocrinology and brain function caused by internal and external stimulus, might actually be able to be looked at with logic, it's not at this time.
> 
> ...








2ntnuf said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said in that post, but even science will admit that they know very little of the hows and whys of the brain.
> 
> What happens is sometimes it's looked at logically and while once it's all figured out, this complex system of endocrinology and brain function caused by internal and external stimulus, might actually be able to be looked at with logic, it's not at this time.
> 
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Catherine,
> I remember the precana class we took. It asked a small set of very vanilla questions about sex including: Are you comfortable being naked in front of your spouse to be?
> 
> If I were teaching that class I'd have 10 powerpoint slides and a little handout for folks to take away.
> ...


MEM I wish you would write a book 'Sex for Dummies" I;ve read so many times about LD/RD spouses. "When we start having sex, she enjoys it. She just pissed that I ask". 

Isn't that twisted? She gets into it because she is a normal RD woman. She resents her husband because she does not understand or accept the normal differences between ND and RD. 

Just do it is also twisted. The message is should be "just let yourself have sex, get jump start". Or something, I worked late can't think of anything clever. 

But just do it makes me angry. I have no problem hitting my start button. I have a problem with ignorance about how m=y start button works.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
I know it makes a big difference to M2 that I accept her start button as unique to her and perfect as is. 

Maybe you can be my editor, because I think many, many people reach a point where their desire becomes responsive. At 51 my desire is sometimes responsive. 

So I'm thinking that everyone in a LTR should be taught about that up front. 




Catherine602 said:


> MEM I wish you would write a book 'Sex for Dummies" I;ve read so many times about LD/RD spouses. "When we start having sex, she enjoys it. She just pissed that I ask".
> 
> Isn't that twisted? She gets into it because she is a normal RD woman. She resents her husband because she does not understand or accept the normal differences between ND and RD.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And if you're happy with your broken start button? Then what?

Or, if you're mortally afraid that if your button gets pushed today, and you play along and enjoy it, that it may get pushed again somehow before it's designated hiatus... 

The button has to be connected for it to work.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

Not living in resentment is a good way to connect it. I firmly believe that (my own completely non-scientific estimate) 80% of LD is, in fact, resentment, fear and not knowing how to handle basic life stressors. Throw in some over-the-top expectations that the HD (or average drive) partner should read minds, assume and "just know", and there's the formula for no sex and everyone being angry.

I look it as a 60/40 split in responsibility for correcting their actions. Problem is, thinking often must change first. (Cognitive and behavioral together. Who cares whether it's high or low psych if it works?) Willingness to change means being honest, and among my LD friends (and H), I see much resistance to self-honesty, much less honesty with partners and spouses. It's an out to avoid having to do the hard work. HD partners who are belligerent, mocking, openly resentful....they have to "get there" too with honesty.


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