# Strange Situation



## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

With out getting into TMI... 
Looking for input from either side of the fence on this.

My wife and I have been having problems since May11. That was the last time we were intimate on any level. We have been talking a lot..and recently she has been accepting to my touch(rubbing her shoulders, squeezing her hand, minor things...) Can't remember how it felt to kiss her...

But on to the strange situation. Last night I offered her a Massage. She excepted it. I told her to come in the room. She got down to her draws and layed on the bed. I covered up the parts of her I wasn't rubbing, trying to show a little respect. I massaged her for about an hour and a half...full body. One thing led to another...but we stopped...
I don't know why. Suddenly this feeling of anxiety and guilt came over me, I look at her and she had the same look on her face. It was like we were strangers. Due to my wives past anytime I even see that she is remotely uncomfortable in this position I've always stopped immediately. Which I did. 

I gave her clothes back to her. Then said, I didn't bring you in her for this. Something feels weird, and I can tell you are feeling it also. I asked her to get dressed, she headed back to the guest room. 

I don't know what happened. We were connecting, It felt amazing(not the sexual part) but the feelings. Then suddenly I was filled with anxiety. We both agreed that it felt odd..but we also both agreed that we wanted it. 

I don't know? I'm at a loss of words here. I don't know if we will ever work past this...it was the first time we had been intimate since all our problems have been aired.

Any input? Suggested reading?


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Right now you are both trying to figure out your relationship and it's a very difficult and confusing time. Whether conscious or not, getting to that level of intimacy probably triggered the anxiety of 'will this do more damage tomorrow?' and it was probably a good thing you backed off. I think the best part of hearing this is that you both did reconnect at an intimate level and both realized it's too soon to move forward in that area.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Hi

Although this is probably jumping the gun in your situation, have a look at this stuff I wrote about massage:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/1869-leave-wife-2.html#post12795

I think in your case, I know exactly what you should do. Tell your wife, that despite the strange feeling, you want to continue giving her massages on a regular basis. And that is it. Just see what come of this situation. The feeling "strange" is a good sign. It means that the connection between you is very strong, but it's gotten all twisted.

If you can persist with the massages, with no other pressure to take it further - the high that you also felt will get bigger and bigger, and the bad feeling will get dimmer. Also, she seems to be hinting that she want you to take the lead with intimacy. But she is the type that does not like too many WORDS. Let your hands do the speaking. If she does not like something, she will soon let you know. Personally, just a hunch but, I doubt she will stop you if you act confidently at the right moment.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Yes, I really believe that you must go slow, but *steady*. You should not escalate the level of intimacy until some of the anxiety has evaporated. 

On the other hand you must not loose ground. Hence my suggestion for scheduling regular massages. I would even go as far as setting up definite times and dates, if that suites your personalities. Perhaps 2 or 3 times a week. More maybe.


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

Setting up dates isn't our thing...but continuous massages I can probably accomplish...

Funny thing is when things started to heat up, I said to stop me if you feel uncomfortable, She didn't I just felt that it wasn't the right time for us to continue...but I am glad we connected at some level.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

This strange feeling you felt, Intuitively, I can almost taste it - in my mouth and stomach, if that makes sense. You must continue with the massages, and be manly about it, I feel she wants you to be more confident.

But I warn you, when the damn bursts this is going to be powerful. She might hit you, scream, drag you off to bed, who can say. Just be ready for fireworks, this is not going to be smooth at all. This situation has all the hallmarks of an explosive situation. whatever comes up, if you can deal with it without so much as a raised eyebrow, you will be *king*! 

What women hate, when they reveal their emotions, is to feel ridiculed, or that they have gone too far.


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

I plan to continue the massages, but....do I mention or talk to her about last night?

Shes not very talkative about our situation...she seems to react more to my actions as long as I make her think it was her Idea...but something has to be said if she made the statement I was worried it would get this far....if she was worried, and came in anyways she wanted it to right? 

I guess confidence is the key...

Just as one more point...even though the sex is more then welcome...thats not what I'm looking for right now. I want to be able to have a continuous connection rather then this erratic connection that we have.

As long as we are doing things that won't even possibly lead down the road of us getting intimate then she is normal....

But today she hasn't even sent me a message, didn't put the dog back in our room this morning...I feel like she is in shock...

I get that feeling like when a guy is dating a chick and she starts to like him a little too much he pulls back...except Visa Versa with my wife...I feel head over heels in love with her right now...and she isn't quite sure where we stand in her head...so I don't know


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

rockbottom -

I would absolutly not talk about it unless she raises it. You must not break the spell. You are right to say "she wanted it", but you must not let on that you know. Be like an innocent child.

In a situation like this, you must learn to keep your mouth shut. We men can never hold our own in the spoken language stakes, to enter into it is to invite defeat.

You may have to back off for a day or two, but when the time is right offer the massages. She already knows that you are not going to automatically escalate it too fast.

Keep us updated. If you can keep your cool and your nerve, you will be in for a very pleasant surprise. Be nice to her, but be manly, don't gush, don't fawn.

By not doing the obvious thing of discussing what happend or analysing it, you will appear mysterious to her. That's what you need to be: Mr X


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

So I went home yesterday with the overwhelming urge to talk to her about the situation. I didn't I went to bed. Acted as if everything was normal.

She didn't make it home till 1030 any ways and was trying to avoid me. So I didn't show that anything was wrong.


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## BlueCreek (May 5, 2008)

I understand the advice given, but keep in mind, it's starting to feel just a wee bit too much like playing a game, or manipulating the situation. I'm not saying it's wrong advice and I'm certainly not suggesting you need to press your wife on every single thing. I'm just saying take a step back and make sure you're not sacrificing open communication for maneuvering yourself in a way you are only assume is the right direction. When you make guesses about what you "think" your wife wants or doesn't want and take action based on those guesses, especially about the important things (and what happened the other night was a very big thing,) you can make a misstep right now when you can't really afford many. She probably does need her space, but it doesn't hurt anything to let her know that you aren't trying to ignore what happened, but that you are just trying to give her whatever space she needs to sort through what she was feeling.

I don't know for sure, but the way you wrote what happened, I'm not sure she may have really known what you were thinking either. It sounded like you backed off and handed her her clothes without really telling her why. She's no more of a mind reader than you are, and may be making all sorts of wrong assumptions. So go ahead and tell her what it meant to you, why it was important, and why you stopped. It doesn't have to be a "let's sit down and talk this out" moment that forces her to respond in kind. It can be a quiet moment where you just say it in passing just to let her know where you stand. You're not pushing it with her, but your not forcing her to assume anything about your emotions either.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't see anything wrong with him talking, if she starts it, but otherwise, the communication is best done non verbally now. It's very hard to argue, if you haven't said anything...wrong.

The only talking i suggest is saying that he really enjoyed giving her the massage, and he wants to do it more often. that sends the message, that he was not backing out, without trying to analyse what happened.


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

I don't know what goes through my wifes head..and like Blue creek stated she doesn't know what goes through mine.

She has been avoiding the house since sunday. Last night we got into an argument..I asked her what she wanted. She said she wanted me but couldn't put herself through this again. 

I was left really in awe...
Sucks to think you hurt the one you loved that badly.
I mentioned Sunday Night..I explained that I wasn't sure really why I pulled back. I guess I was scared of what would come next. I told her that the feelings I felt that night I hadn't felt for her in awhile. I also said I didn't know how else to convey to her that I only want her in my life. I referenced all the things I have done as of late (Fixed her car, fixed her dads car, fixed a lot of the house, dropped all the female friends that I have which she might have thoughts or trigger her images, Tell her where I am going, make promises and keep them, not going out all the time...)
I just don't know anymore...I'm tired of hurting and I'm tired of rejection. Im tired of seeing her hurt and not wanting to tell me about it. I'm tired of this one sided healing.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

hitrockbottom said:


> I don't know what goes through my wifes head..and like Blue creek stated she doesn't know what goes through mine.
> 
> She has been avoiding the house since sunday. Last night we got into an argument..I asked her what she wanted. She said she wanted me but couldn't put herself through this again.
> 
> ...


Well the one sided healing is in part from the one sided hurt. 

There is an old saying that it takes 100 good acts to fix one bad act. I think in your case this applies. You are doing almost everything you can but I would suggest two things.

1) Communicate more and better with her.

2) Don't force on her what you have done to fix things, because then she will weigh them on what destroyed things.

You have to decide if you can live like this for the next year or two because it takes a long time to heal from this. Things will go slowly.

draconis


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

draconis-

Personally I would not be willing to live like this for a year or two. What would be the point, when there are two other choices?

1) Make it better.

2) Move on, and have an easier life.

It's not just the lack of sex, they have a difficult atmosphere between them. Why should both partners be subjected to two years of misery?


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

Either way regardless of what I do there is going to be some pain.

I choose to put that pain into fixing things with my wife.
Even If we divorce there will still be pain. Because I can not hate her. But I can't repeat the last year. I can't repeat what got us to this point. It is really her choice now. 
I told her that she is the only person that I want to spend my life with...I made sure she knew that I WANT, as in it was my choice to her. 
Giving up is easy...dealing with the pain caused from giving up is what is hard. 

As for the one sidedness...it took two of us ignoring each other and the two of us not wanting to talk to each other for her to initially remove her rings.
My infidelity only came out a month after she removed her rings. I can't heal things for her, nor can I fix them. I can only reassure her that I do love her and that she is the only person for me. But "we" will not be a couple again if she does not allow for some kind of healing or anger. 
But this conflict avoidance let me act like I am in high school crap will not fix anything. It will only further seed the rage/hatred/hurt in our hearts.


one last thing..
Mark Twain - Your right I could move on and have an easier life. But at what cost. I will gain my sanity, eventually, but I will lose the most important thing to me though...I don't see how that will be easier


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

hitrockbottom said:


> But on to the strange situation. Last night I offered her a Massage. She excepted it. I told her to come in the room. She got down to her draws and layed on the bed. I covered up the parts of her I wasn't rubbing, trying to show a little respect. I massaged her for about an hour and a half...full body. One thing led to another...but we stopped...
> I don't know why. Suddenly this feeling of anxiety and guilt came over me, I look at her and she had the same look on her face. It was like we were strangers. *Due to my wives past* anytime I even see that she is *remotely uncomfortable in this position I've always stopped immediately*. Which I did.


I feel there is a huge clue here, please explain the 2 parts I highlighted in bold.

Also, please explain what your sex life together was like in the past.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Plus we need to know about the highlighted parts below:



hitrockbottom said:


> *She said she wanted me but couldn't put herself through this again.*





hitrockbottom said:


> Here are some of her points:
> Too Clingy
> I’m Not trusting of her when she goes out
> I try to control her too much
> ...


She is like a murder mystery author, she leaves you clues, there is a smoking gun, but that is all.


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

"She said she wanted me but couldn't put herself through this again" -
I assume she was speaking about the hurt from us being distant to each other. and the One night stand that I had 2yrs ago. Other then that I don't know.

"She has Images stuck in her head, won't tell me what - has to do with intimacy" - 
When we are together hanging out she is fine. We laugh talk, harass each other. We act like a couple. But when we start to get close, and I mean just holding hands, hugging anything she clams up


"Due to my wives past anytime I even see that she is remotely uncomfortable in this position I've always stopped immediately" - She was raped at 14 by a boyfriend. I used to never be able to touch her legs, or be on top. It took years to get her coach her through that.

As for our past sex life.. It was great.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

You need to get her to explain the image "thing". I am guessing that she has an X rated image of you "doing it" with your affair woman in her head.

I assume you had an affair because she stopped having sex with you?

I am really going out on a limb here: I think she may have wanted you to carry on getting more intimate with that massage, and when you stopped out of fear, she realised that you were both being conned out of intimacy by her past rape. She may have wanted you to rail-road her a bit by just carrying on, but you stopped. This might have also confirmed her suspicions that you don't find her desirable since your affair.

Try offering her a massage again. And unless she says STOP, or pushes you away, don't hold back.


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

She knows I find her desirable...I tell her every day. 
It wasn't an affair. It was a drunken lust filled night that stopped before we had sex. And yes it was partially because I was angry at her. The other half was my immature self coming out.

When her arms are limp and she has tears in her eyes then No I'm not going to continue on with it.

You might be right that she wants me to show confidence. 
I did. I feel I showed confidence and will power by being able to stop when things were that heated up. 

Now I need to be strong in showing that I can move on if that is what she desires. I want things between us to work. I have time and again shown that to her. I don't know how else except patience and redundancy in what I do and say. 

I am very confident in my sexual status. I know if I wanted I could have another woman. The thing is I don't want another. I certainly do not want her if she is laying limp.

The sex to me is a back issue to having back her admiration and desire to want to be with me.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

It might be that she is the touchy feely type. In that case "telling" her you love her is of little use. You have to touch her. Please look at this website, it changed the way I relate to my wife a whole bunch:

"Ask Dr. Tracy" Love Library


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## blind (Jan 17, 2008)

hitrockbottom - I'm coming into this thread a little late, but I've read all the posts. You mentioned "She said she wanted me but couldn't put herself through this again." I believe your wife is struggling with putting her emotions at risk again. She is having a hard time opening herself up to you because she doesn't want a repeat of the past. She has put up walls to keep that from happening. It sounds like those walls may be coming down, but this scares her. She MUST be able to TRUST you again. Like Drac metioned, this takes time. I've encouraged you to be patient in past threads. This is exactly what I was talking about. Your hard work is starting to show. She is slowly letting her guard down. This is putting the ball back in your court. Keep up the good work, but don't push her too hard. If she has any sense from you that she is at risk of being hurt again, the walls will be back up and even stronger than before.

Keep up the good work. 

Blind


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

blind said:


> hitrockbottom - I'm coming into this thread a little late, but I've read all the posts. You mentioned "She said she wanted me but couldn't put herself through this again." I believe your wife is struggling with putting her emotions at risk again. She is having a hard time opening herself up to you because she doesn't want a repeat of the past. She has put up walls to keep that from happening. It sounds like those walls may be coming down, but this scares her. She MUST be able to TRUST you again. Like Drac metioned, this takes time. I've encouraged you to be patient in past threads. This is exactly what I was talking about. Your hard work is starting to show. She is slowly letting her guard down. This is putting the ball back in your court. Keep up the good work, but don't push her too hard. If she has any sense from you that she is at risk of being hurt again, the walls will be back up and even stronger than before.
> 
> Keep up the good work.
> 
> Blind



Thanks man..I am trying hard as I can to be patient. The only thing that destroys me is the constant rejection from her. I told her last night I wouldn't offer up an ultimatum to her, I loved her too much for that. I hate being in this situation...but thanks for the words of encouragement


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

hitrockbottom said:


> I told her last night I wouldn't offer up an ultimatum to her, I loved her too much for that.


What if she unconsciously wants an ultimatum?

You give write her poetry, but I suspect you are not speaking her language. 

Also the rape may have left her with sex and violence mixed up in her mind. While this means that sex brings on feelings of danger, the converse is also true - for her danger may bring on sexual desires, which she will tend to feel guilty about.

Your reaction has always been to be a gentleman when these issues arise. But maybe, secretly, she wants a man with the bravado and confidence to deliver her from her own demons. You could be that man, but you will have to think outside the box.

On another note, control *outside *of the bedroom is a turn off. She mentioned control, so you should listen. Don't ask her where she has been when she goes out, on one of her secret missions. After all, if she has come back safely, all your questioning is of no practical use. It is only to assuage your own fears.


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## Triton (Jul 8, 2008)

Listen to Drac ! What kind of problems since May 11th ?:scratchhead:


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

Triton said:


> Listen to Drac ! What kind of problems since May 11th ?:scratchhead:


May 11th was the day she removed her rings and basically mentally shut her self out of my life. It was a month later pretty much to the day that she discovered the 1 nighter I had.

As an Update...

She went out again monday night, didn't come home till midnight. I didn't question where she went but did talk to her about us...last night she was out till I don't know when I just passed out. Texted her goodnight...she still slept in the guest room. I woke up in the middle of the night and checked on her...then this morning she was like the old self again...Asked how my morning was going. Agreed to go see my family with me this weekend. And told me of her plans for tonight. It felt good...
we will see where all this goes...trying to stay on course with my plans.

Mark twain - 

Yeah I have to learn not to control things outside the bedroom with her. That is what I have been struggling with. I don't think it is a crime to ask her where she has been, but with out being so direct. 

As for our bedroom life. I have always taken control of things. I normally initiate everything we have done..but I did set my limits with her and I will respect those limits.

As for delivering her from her demons. I have done that already. Our sex life has been great up until May 11th...her past issues only affected us for the first 2-3 years together. We have moved past that a LONG time ago.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

hitrockbottom said:


> As for our bedroom life. I have always taken control of things. I normally initiate everything we have done..but* I did set my limits* with her and I will respect those limits.


Please explain this.



hitrockbottom said:


> As for delivering her from her demons. I have done that already. Our sex life has been great up until May 11th...her past issues only affected us for the first 2-3 years together. We have moved past that a LONG time ago.


I'm afraid that things have a way of re-surfacing, especially if you think they have been dealt with.

You were weak when you texted her "goodnight". It was not for her benefit that you did it.

Did you read that link on inner languages? I feel you might be the Audio type. She sounds tactile to me, but you will know more about that than I can guess at from the comfort of my own computer.

Anyway, if she is back to normal, you must press on with the massages.


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

My limits were set Years ago...

I feel around see how things go in regards to her past.

How is it weak to text her goodnight. I was letting her know I was home. It was me that cheated on her. I don't see that being an issue of weakness but more so of respect.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

hitrockbottom said:


> My limits were set Years ago...
> 
> I feel around see how things go in regards to her past.


You are very articulate, yet here you are being very coy. Please expand on the two sentences above. I think most of your problems are contained in the above.



hitrockbottom said:


> How is it weak to text her goodnight. I was letting her know I was home. It was me that cheated on her. I don't see that being an issue of weakness but more so of respect.


Because your text was probably seen by her as sarcastic, and further monitoring of her.


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> Because your text was probably seen by her as sarcastic, and further monitoring of her.


See I never thought about that...then again I never thought I would be in this situation.


Real quick run down:

When we started dating. She was in a bad mental state. Depressed, hooked on drugs, no longer living at her house, her parents were divorced, father never spoke with her, and had absolutely no self esteem. Because of her lack of self esteem she did what everyone else wanted to do. Pretended like it made her happy. I brought her out of that.

How - Compliments, Pushed her to try new things, bought her sexier clothes to convince her she could wear them, told her the drugs weren't getting her no where, Brought her dad back into her life, showed her how to have fun outside of her comfort zone, and one last thing.....ready for this......
NO SEX FOR A YEAR

Yep thats right. We went an entire year with no sex. Yes we had sex prior to that commitment but I wanted to prove to her that I really wanted to be with her.

I know it sounds strange, I caught flack for it for years now from my friends....but we made it a year. In that year time frame is where I fell in love with her. It was during following year that I broke her from thinking I would ever hurt her...It took multiple times of us starting and stopping before she was comfortable again.

I made a promise to her then that if she was ever, EVER, uncomfortable then I would stop. No matter what point we were at. I have held to that. Never became angry, never upset about it, because I always knew that she respected me for that and it help break her of the fears she carried. 

I'm coy about talking about it because I become enraged when I think of it. It takes me hours if not days to erase the image from my head....and it is a very descriptive image due to a poem she wrote about it....

Aside from that I know what the problems are. I just don't know how to correct them except patience and my actions. Even then I do not know if it is helping at all.

I know that she doesn't want to be hurt, emotionally again. So when ever she senses the emotions coming back she avoids me, sort of washes her thoughts of me. Then she comes back around,

I know she doesn't trust me. So she blocks, or so it seems, everything I do/say out of her head. She still thinks I slept with this other women, whom is her friend and she still hangs out with. I have offered a detailed recap of the night but she turns it down.

I know that she doesn't want to sleep in the same bed as me right now because she does not want to become intimate. Even though we both have needs. I don't understand that.

Also can someone explain this to me. I don't want to be controlling of my wife. I'm actually starting to fall for her again seeing her be independent, as far as not relying on my to do things. I've also started to get myself back by being forced to do my own things. 

The things that bother me are:
This week she hasnt came home before midnight, she has been hanging out with some guys she just met, friends or not it seems disrespectful to me.
She would rather hang out with her friends then chill with me. 
When I try to hang out with her at the house, when ever she is home, she is constantly on her phone texting or she makes comments like your in my space. 

Then she turns around and says things like...."i want you but I can't have you, because I can't put myself through this again"

How do I react to this? 
Do sit patiently and wait?
Do I mention it to her?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

hitrockbottom said:


> I'm coy about talking about it because I become enraged when I think of it. It takes me hours if not days to erase the *image from my head.*...and it is a very descriptive image due to a poem she wrote about it....


First you mention her image in her mind, now it seems you have one.

Can you explain what your image is?


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

The images from when she was raped...I can see myself there. 
even though it happened prior to us dating..thats really as much detail as I am going into...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Now I think I understand what is going on. If you read this whole thread from the beginning, so will you.

Interestingly, before you even made your last post, my wife read this thread and speculated that your wife is placing you (in her mind) in the role of the rapist. What is shocking me is that you also appear to be placing yourself in that role as well. Not only that, but it seems that you fell into this role from the beginning.

Human beings amaze me.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

edit


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

edit


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## hitrockbottom (Jun 3, 2008)

Since last sunday my wife has avoided the house entirely. She signed up to help with a class that gets out at 9pm. Giving her an hour to get home, I expect to see her at around 10 before I crash out. 
Nope I don't see her till about 12:30 when I wake up from her coming in. She goes out with some of the people from the class(happen to be guys) and doesn't come home till late. 

I haven't got to spend a moment alone with her except Thursday night for about 10minutes and she made a comment "your in my space"

Last night I was sick...again didn't see her till around 12:30. Her granny had the decency to call and check on me, but not her.

Today I called her to read a letter I wrote to the school board in regards to her nephews. I asked if she wanted to go play some pool tonight..got the response I don't know. 

I planned for us to go to my nephews party this sunday...she is going but decided to invite her ENTIRE family...so yet again no time alone. No possibility that we will be able to talk. Yet again she has seemingly avoided our problem.

I love her but I don't see how we are going to fix things if we are not going to talk, or if she is going to continue to avoid me.

We are living in separate rooms under the same house because she is uncomfortable in my room or sleeping in the same bed together.

She says she doesn't want to get divorced, but doesn't want to talk about her feelings.

Says she wants only me, but can't because she can't put her self through this again.

It has been since May 11th...I feel like we are in a stalemate. I hate sitting here watching her act like a single person and waiting for her answer.

If im being honest...it really seems disrespectful to me. I don't understand why she is acting like this. Feels like I am back in ****ing highshool....


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

hitrockbottom-

I just don't know if you can see this the way others reading your thread can see it. It might help you if you read this thread through from the beginning.

You appear to be in a *symbiotic* relationship with this woman.

What does that mean? It means that you are getting as much out of the weird dynamic as she is. It means you actually want this on some level. You have proved that by this statement to her:


hitrockbottom said:


> I told her last night I wouldn't offer up an ultimatum to her, I loved her too much for that. I hate being in this situation...but thanks for the words of encouragement


In negotiations, you never reveal your bottom line in this way. If I were doing business with a client and he said this, I would know I could walk all over him.

1)Cast your mind back to when you first decided to go out with her. what attracted you?

2)Did you already know about the rape?

Basically you are addicted to part of this situation. You are also trying to fix her previous rape by making some sort of living sacrifice of your own life. Why?


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