# Cheating in sexless marriage



## rubymoon

Is it really cheating when your spouse is jot interested in sex? We can call them LD, asexual, whatever... it may be from naturally low hormones, stress, whatever... The point is there is no sex in marriage because one of the spouses is not up for it all the time.

The more I read about it, the more I lean towards the thought that an affair in a sexless marriage is survival, not betrayal. Here is why:

Betrayal first happened when HD (as in higher desire, not necessarily that high) spouse starts feeling rejected, unwanted, and frankly, simply dumped. 

Secondly, if Lower D spouse doesn't feel like sex and love are connected, that intimacy means a lot, that satisfaction of physical desires is important, then what is wrong with getting all of it elsewhere?! If all HD needs are just silly, meaningless nonsense, then why would it be bad to have them satisfied by someone else? 

Yes, I know about vows, but some of them are already broken if one doesn't want to meet the other one at least half way. A marriage like that is already limping. And, no, the goal is not to get even or to break the second leg of a limping marriage. However, it looks like the only leg of such marriage is the HD spouse, who ends up carrying most of the weight created by the difference of two people. It would be only fair to unload some of that weight, especially since LD partner supposedly truly believes that those needs are not important enough to make an effort.


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## ladymisato

rubymoon said:


> Is it really cheating when your spouse is jot interested in sex? We can call them LD, asexual, whatever... it may be from naturally low hormones, stress, whatever... The point is there is no sex in marriage because one of the spouses is not up for it all the time.
> 
> The more I read about it, the more I lean towards the thought that an affair in a sexless marriage is survival, not betrayal. Here is why:
> 
> Betrayal first happened when HD (as in higher desire, not necessarily that high) spouse starts feeling rejected, unwanted, and frankly, simply dumped.
> 
> Secondly, if Lower D spouse doesn't feel like sex and love are connected, that intimacy means a lot, that satisfaction of physical desires is important, then what is wrong with getting all of it elsewhere?! If all HD needs are just silly, meaningless nonsense, then why would it be bad to have them satisfied by someone else?
> 
> Yes, I know about vows, but some of them are already broken if one doesn't want to meet the other one at least half way. A marriage like that is already limping. And, no, the goal is not to get even or to break the second leg of a limping marriage. However, it looks like the only leg of such marriage is the HD spouse, who ends up carrying most of the weight created by the difference of two people. It would be only fair to unload some of that weight, especially since LD partner supposedly truly believes that those needs are not important enough to make an effort.


It's a breaking of vows even if the other spouse broke vows first.

Here are some examples to consider: suppose one spouse had a paralyzing accident or is otherwise incapable for medical reasons.

Also, as I have related in my own case, many times LD is not a condition or intent but a result of other problems in the marriage. Fix those problems and the libido returns to normal.

That said, there is much a LD can do to alleviate the situation. If the LD partner is unconcerned then that is unhelpful.


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## 2ntnuf

Just wondering your age ruby. 

Why don't you separate with the statement that it is over and serve him divorce papers? Do you believe you will likely lose your drive and then feel like you made the wrong decision? Or do you hold out some hope that he will change? I didn't think those things happened.

ETA: Have you considered the alternate? Seriously offer him the opportunity to cheat. I mean sit and talk with him about him getting into a secret affair and not mentioning it or anything. I think that might spark his interest in sex. Not sure, though. And truly, I am not being facetious or sarcastic. I think if I had done something like that, it would have driven my libido through the roof. There was a point for about two weeks, where I talked with this dirty girl who I thought would be fun to fool around with. I truly felt something in my nether regions. I didn't pursue and told her I was wrong for even talking with her. It was a public place and I was among others. Nothing could happen there.


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## rubymoon

ladymisato said:


> Here are some examples to consider: suppose one spouse had a paralyzing accident or is otherwise incapable for medical reasons.
> .


One must be paralyzed from head to toes to be incapable of pleasing the other. That's an extreme situation I am not considering. As I mentioned, I read a lot on here, and none of the posters have this situation. I'm taking a more common scenarios. 

Other problems in marriage is also something I didn't consider. That would be different, and I agree with you on it. But a lot of folks have no problems in their marriage other than difference in sex drives.


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## rubymoon

2ntnuf said:


> Why don't you separate with the statement that it is over and serve him divorce papers? Do you believe you will likely lose your drive and then feel like you made the wrong decision? Or do you hold out some hope that he will change? I didn't think those things happened.


Because a lot of folks said that they have perfect marriages other than sex. Or they don't want to divorce because of kids. People have their own reasons to not want a divorce.



2ntnuf said:


> Have you considered the alternate? Seriously offer him the opportunity to cheat. I mean sit and talk with him about him getting into a secret affair and not mentioning it or anything. I think that might spark his interest in sex. Not sure, though. And truly, I am not being facetious or sarcastic. I think if I had done something like that, it would have driven my libido through the roof. There was a point for about two weeks, where I talked with this dirty girl who I thought would be fun to fool around with. I truly felt something in my nether regions. I didn't pursue and told her I was wrong for even talking with her. It was a public place and I was among others. Nothing could happen there.


So what would it do for the HD that the LD partner wants sex with some one else? What's the point of this experiment? Of course excitement with a new person is a powerful aphrodisiac for anyone - what are we proving/disproving here?


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## 2ntnuf

rubymoon said:


> Because a lot of folks said that they have perfect marriages other than sex. Or they don't want to divorce because of kids. People have their own reasons to not want a divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> So what would it do for the HD that the LD partner wants sex with some one else? What's the point of this experiment? Of course excitement with a new person is a powerful aphrodisiac for anyone - what are we proving/disproving here?


That you want him.

As for the first paragraph, the marriage cannot be perfect if you are not getting your needs met. That's just denial of the truth.


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## Married but Happy

If I were faced with a sexless marriage (my first marriage was), and if the relationship was poor (my first marriage was poor), I'd divorce after reasonable attempts to improve things (which I did).

If everything was great aside from sex, and no changes were forthcoming despite all reasonable efforts, I'd would announce that I was outsourcing the sex and she could either accept that, find a solution to the sexlessness, or divorce me (if I didn't decide to first).

We both came from sexless previous marriages, and neither of us ever want to deal with that again, so we've agreed that if either of us becomes unable or unwilling to have sex but everything else is good in the relationship, we can satisfy our sexual needs elsewhere.


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## GettingIt_2

There are a million reasons to cheat, but no good excuses. 

Cheating has no good end game, either. You get to be a cheater for the rest of your life. 

My worst nightmare (literally, I've had this nightmare more than once): that I slip up and cheat and have to live with that forever. I'm not one of those people who say, "I know I'd never cheat." Bull. It could happen TO ANYONE. 

I'd rather be cheated on than cheat. Why? Cause I know it would ruin my life and there is no way to erase it once you do it. But everyone is different, that's for shizzle.

My husband was unhappy with our sex life for more than ten years, and he stayed faithful. I am SO GRATEFUL to him--but but quite honestly, for his sake more than mine. I might have been able to forgive him; I doubt he would have forgiven himself.


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## 4x4

Cheating? No way in hell! That's a morals and values mismatch not a libido mismatch to me.

Agreeing to outsource? If that works for your relationship I don't judge. It wouldn't work for me. I'd be looking for a daily partner which wouldn't leave much time left to share a life with a spouse. I'd just move on sooner than later.


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## murphy5

the simple fact is, it is NOT CHEATING if you ask for permission.

If your spouse can not give you any sex, for whatever reason (aliens came down and told them to be celibate, etc) the spouse owes you a chance to have a fulfilling sex life. He/She should be fine with you going out and finding another sex partner. Ideally the LD spouse would even help you to find a suitable partner (maybe one of his/her friends that is similarly vexed in married life or divorced).

It is not ideal at all, and fraught with dangers. But if you have a good/great marriage except for no sex, then _this is a possible way_ to keep everything moving, at least for a while.

If a spouse is denying you ANY sex, refuses to work on the reason they act that way, then that is being very selfish. In that case, divorce, or possibly cheat (depending on your personal morals).

No HD person should be forced into a celibate life.

And yes, if I were paralyzed from head to toe, and could not satisfy my loving wife, I WOULD expect her to find a new sexual partner! I would try my best to insure it was for sex only...not an emotional affair...but I guess THAT is the potential danger. Hot sex DOES lead to love/dependence.

But that is why the LD partner is so at fault. LACK OF hot sex in a marriage equally destroys said marriage. SO there is a lot of blame on the LD person


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## tommyr

Ruby, I've read some of your earlier threads/posts and (this may sound harsh) but you are waaaay too passive about sex with your H. You don't initiate, and you complain that he "forgets" sex and the weekend slips away. Well newsflash: he is LD and does not think about sex!!!

So if you want a sexually active marriage (with current husband) then Ruby *it will be up to YOU to invite him into bed*. Yes, it's a tragedy to be an HD (or even ND = normal desire) married to an LD. Even more tragic in your case with an LD husband (hope that doesn't offend anybody but I believe men in general have higher desire). But so far, I've not heard enough of your story to reach the conclusion that your current marriage is doomed to celibacy.

Sounds like your discussions with H have been centered on trying to increase his libido and have him "remember" sex. Why don't you just give up on that line of thinking, instead, ask him to just agree to sex with you 1X per week (or whatever number you think is reasonable)? Then, discuss the best days/times/scenarios (when he is most receptive) for YOU to initiate. Yes it does suck for YOU to have to invest this much effort. But this works quite well in my marriage (me the HD). 

Another newsflash: affairs are a LOT of work, so my suggestion above may be far easier for you to get the sex you need, with your current H.


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## ladymisato

rubymoon said:


> One must be paralyzed from head to toes to be incapable of pleasing the other. That's an extreme situation I am not considering. As I mentioned, I read a lot on here, and none of the posters have this situation. I'm taking a more common scenarios.


However, I think psychological problems are actually quite common. Physical paralysis is simply easier to talk about.

What's interesting is that in several situations the spouse has said something to the effect that if the other spouse is diagnosed with condition X then he/she will stay but otherwise not. Which is quite peculiar if you think about it.



> Other problems in marriage is also something I didn't consider. That would be different, and I agree with you on it. But a lot of folks have no problems in their marriage other than difference in sex drives.


Other problems are, by far, the most common situation of sexless marriage. Every marriage has problems and very often they rise to the point of resentment. 

See: 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/217065-self-righteous-resentment.html


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## john117

Morals and values? 

Everything moral happens for non moral reasons as well. Selling drugs is immoral but also not very profitable for the grunts - hint: read Freakonomics - so there's a good reason it's not happening in huge numbers. Same as robbing banks, the consequences of getting caught outweigh the consequences of not getting caught so... 

Speeding is immoral but who doesn't speed?


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## rubymoon

tommyr said:


> Ruby, I've read some of your earlier threads/posts and (this may sound harsh) but you are waaaay too passive about sex with your H. You don't initiate, and you complain that he "forgets" sex and the weekend slips away. Well newsflash: he is LD and does not think about sex!!!
> 
> So if you want a sexually active marriage (with current husband) then Ruby *it will be up to YOU to invite him into bed*. Yes, it's a tragedy to be an HD (or even ND = normal desire) married to an LD. Even more tragic in your case with an LD husband (hope that doesn't offend anybody but I believe men in general have higher desire). But so far, I've not heard enough of your story to reach the conclusion that your current marriage is doomed to celibacy.
> 
> Sounds like your discussions with H have been centered on trying to increase his libido and have him "remember" sex. Why don't you just give up on that line of thinking, instead, ask him to just agree to sex with you 1X per week (or whatever number you think is reasonable)? Then, discuss the best days/times/scenarios (when he is most receptive) for YOU to initiate. Yes it does suck for YOU to have to invest this much effort. But this works quite well in my marriage (me the HD).
> 
> Another newsflash: affairs are a LOT of work, so my suggestion above may be far easier for you to get the sex you need, with your current H.


Makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

But in this case, I wasn't talking about myself. I read another thread on here, where a woman was telling a story about her sexless marriage and how her H doesn't tie sex to love, etc, and that brought me to the thought of this question: if sex is not connected to love, then what's wrong with having it with someone else? BTW, there is not a single vow that explicitly mentions sex! It's implied by "will always love and cherish my spouse", but if the spouse doesn't connect the dots between love and sex, then even that vow does not include sex either! It's just logic! 

My situation is different, because this is a brand new problem for us and we are still learning how to work around it. My H used to be super sexually active, and he sure knows how sex and love are connected from his past. But those who never were HD claim that they see sex differently - if so, then logically sex, as unimportant to them as it is, shouldn't be a bigger deal than sharing a meal with the spouse or someone else. Right? 

Also, the more I read on here, the more I see that those with lower desire treat their spouses like Property! They cannot come up with a better justification to being against cheating than "it's wrong", "you are/will be a bad person"... Why? You don't want sex, he does - why should he live his life by your standards? Or vise versa. Say, someone gets a house with 4 bedrooms, even if the one only needs 1 bedroom - in any case, as long as the deed says it's his house, those extra bedrooms can stay empty, dirty, whatever - basically, as long as the one's name is on some piece of paper, all 4 bedrooms are his whether he takes care of them or not. I see that LD folks treat their spouse in the same manner! As long as it's my name on the marriage certificate, my spouse is mine entirely whether I take care of his major needs, or just chose those that suite me, and ignore the rest of his needs. The spouse is not a property and shouldn't be treated like one! The point is that if one of the two is not willing to work on it, then the vow should be annulled all together. 

Not relevant to my situation, maybe just yet. We will see. But thanks for the advice anyway - it makes sense!

And your point of too much work to seek and maintain an affair is a REAL argument, instead of a guilt shifting game.


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## rubymoon

murphy5 said:


> And yes, if I were paralyzed from head to toe, and could not satisfy my loving wife, I WOULD expect her to find a new sexual partner! I would try my best to insure it was for sex only...not an emotional affair...but I guess THAT is the potential danger. Hot sex DOES lead to love/dependence.


Agree with everything you said. And co-sign on the quoted part.


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## lifeistooshort

First I want to say that loving partners should absolutely meet halfway to satisfy each other. But it does seem to me that this site is biased toward hd people, and even when a lower drive spouse makes the effort many higher drives are upset that they're not as into it. They don't want what they call "duty sex". Except what they really want is for the lower drive partner to want it like they do, thus they want them to be high drive; but is this really something one can ask? If so why can't ld ask hd to just be ld? People are who they are. 

I'm not talking about the jerks that withhold, or the ones that put out but just lay there, or the ones that jerk off to porn and ignore their spouse. I'm talking about those that do make some effort but are just not as into it because their sex drive is less frequent. Is this a betrayal of vows?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rubymoon

ladymisato said:


> What's interesting is that in several situations the spouse has said something to the effect that if the other spouse is diagnosed with condition X then he/she will stay but otherwise not. Which is quite peculiar if you think about it.


Another thought that I just had reading the above. Say a LD person ends up in a "mid evil times" type of marriage - back then, it was perfectly fine to rape a wife senseless, roll over and snore the night away. Would you stay in this situation? I bet No, because such a spouse doesn't care about what you feel, what you want, what your needs are... So, in this type of a "Condition" it's not so "peculiar" to leave. But if the situation is reversed and LD partner does just as much damage to the HD partner via constant rejection, then it's all of a sudden "peculiar".


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## rubymoon

lifeistooshort said:


> First I want to say that loving partners should absolutely meet halfway to satisfy each other. But it does seem to me that this site is biased toward hd people, and even when a lower drive spouse makes the effort many higher drives are upset that they're not as into it. They don't want what they call "duty sex". Except what they really want is for the lower drive partner to want it like they do, thus they want them to be high drive; but is this really something one can ask? If so why can't ld ask hd to just be ld? People are who they are.
> 
> I'm not talking about the jerks that withhold, or the ones that put out but just lay there, or the ones that jerk off to porn and ignore their spouse. I'm talking about those that do make some effort but are just not as into it because their sex drive is less frequent. Is this a betrayal of vows?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree with this, too. Actually, even tried discussing it here without much understanding. If LD makes an effort, then it should be enough, as long as the effort is sincere and intended to satisfy, not just to get it over with. It's all about effort, not turning into something you are not.


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## 2ntnuf

Get a divorce before you turn into a bitter hateful person. You deserve it. You have the right to take half of everything. Do it. Do it for yourself. Stop trying to force something that won't happen. Understand the life changes and you no longer live with a person who wants to have sex with you. It's not your fault. Just end your suffering. You have that right. You have that ability. There is no shame in going that route. Irreconcilable differences is a commonly used term. 

You are only getting angrier and angrier. You are hurting yourself. You have no one to blame for that, when you refuse to do what you know has to happen. Get the divorce filed. Get it done. That's my suggestion. You can walk away with your head held high.


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## ladymisato

rubymoon said:


> Agree with this, too. Actually, even tried discussing it here without much understanding. If LD makes an effort, then it should be enough, as long as the effort is sincere and intended to satisfy, not just to get it over with. It's all about effort, not turning into something you are not.


This is what I was alluding too in the paralysis example. Which is it: is the issue a lack of sex or is the issue a lack of effort or concern or sincerity?


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## rubymoon

2ntnuf said:


> ETA: Have you considered the alternate? Seriously offer him the opportunity to cheat. I mean sit and talk with him about him getting into a secret affair and not mentioning it or anything. I think that might spark his interest in sex. Not sure, though. And truly, I am not being facetious or sarcastic. I think if I had done something like that, it would have driven my libido through the roof. There was a point for about two weeks, where I talked with this dirty girl who I thought would be fun to fool around with. I truly felt something in my nether regions. I didn't pursue and told her I was wrong for even talking with her. It was a public place and I was among others. Nothing could happen there.


I gave it a thought. In this case, he (or you) are the cheater. I want my H, despite all the frustration, anger, disappointments and hurt, I want to fix it with HIM. In the given scenario, the man (be it him or you) is capable of wanting sex but not with his spouse - that's pure and the worst cheating ever!


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## rubymoon

2ntnuf said:


> Get a divorce before you turn into a bitter hateful person. You deserve it. You have the right to take half of everything. Do it. Do it for yourself. Stop trying to force something that won't happen. Understand the life changes and you no longer live with a person who wants to have sex with you. It's not your fault. Just end your suffering. You have that right. You have that ability. There is no shame in going that route. Irreconcilable differences is a commonly used term.
> 
> You are only getting angrier and angrier. You are hurting yourself. You have no one to blame for that, when you refuse to do what you know has to happen. Get the divorce filed. Get it done. That's my suggestion. You can walk away with your head held high.


I am trying to have a conversation here. Not talking about myself, but discussing the subject in general. Can you do the same? 

JFYI, I WILL fix whatever issue it is in my marriage. My H and I broke up once years ago to only come back to each other years later. Unlike most married people, I have no doubts in my mind that if it's not him, then it's no one in the entire world! I do get upset with him sometimes, just like everyone else. But my dilemma is not "him or someone else". It's "him or no one else".


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## larry.gray

I was in your shoes once. I could have easily cheated if the right circumstances had happened (had the right woman come along at the right time). I thank God daily that I didn't though. At the time my mind was clouded by the anger and resentment at my wife. Had I done that, I would now either be destroyed by the guilt of hiding it from my wife or devastated by the pain I caused her. 

I got to the point that I would do what I could to fix it, or be ready to leave. One of the advantages of TAM was that I figured out what I needed to do to fix it. But a second advantage was the realization that cheating is never the answer. Go read over on CWI for a while and you can figure out why cheating isn't the answer. 

I'm happy to report to me that our marriage is in a better place - but I was serious about being ready to end it. Where you are now is no place for anyone to remain! Fix it or end it.


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## 2ntnuf

That a girl ruby.


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## rubymoon

Larry, thank you. Your post prompts some thoughts. 

I guess, if the marriage is good overall other than sex, then I personally would never have the guts to hurt my H that much. It would be different if we had other issues. But low sex drive is just not a reason enough to get so careless...


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## larry.gray

rubymoon said:


> I am trying to have a conversation here. Not talking about myself, but discussing the subject in general. Can you do the same?
> 
> JFYI, I WILL fix whatever issue it is in my marriage. My H and I broke up once years ago to only come back to each other years later. Unlike most married people, I have no doubts in my mind that if it's not him, then it's no one in the entire world! I do get upset with him sometimes, just like everyone else. But my dilemma is not "him or someone else". It's "him or no one else".


I'll disagree with that. Baring mental health issues, somewhere around 1 in 10 to 1 in 100 men would work out great for you. 

You have an advantage on many of the frustrated men here on SIM. LD men are much less common than LD women. Your chances of ending up in a LTR with another man who is indifferent to sex isn't that likely. Not so for men... they can go into a new relationship and after the honeymoon stage they'll be back in the same place.


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## john117

And now watch for the "LD rates are the same for both men and women" part of the program....


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## EleGirl

rubymoon said:


> Is it really cheating when your spouse is jot interested in sex? We can call them LD, asexual, whatever... it may be from naturally low hormones, stress, whatever... The point is there is no sex in marriage because one of the spouses is not up for it all the time.
> 
> The more I read about it, the more I lean towards the thought that an affair in a sexless marriage is survival, not betrayal. Here is why:
> 
> Betrayal first happened when HD (as in higher desire, not necessarily that high) spouse starts feeling rejected, unwanted, and frankly, simply dumped.
> 
> Secondly, if Lower D spouse doesn't feel like sex and love are connected, that intimacy means a lot, that satisfaction of physical desires is important, then what is wrong with getting all of it elsewhere?! If all HD needs are just silly, meaningless nonsense, then why would it be bad to have them satisfied by someone else?
> 
> Yes, I know about vows, but some of them are already broken if one doesn't want to meet the other one at least half way. A marriage like that is already limping. And, no, the goal is not to get even or to break the second leg of a limping marriage. However, it looks like the only leg of such marriage is the HD spouse, who ends up carrying most of the weight created by the difference of two people. It would be only fair to unload some of that weight, especially since LD partner supposedly truly believes that those needs are not important enough to make an effort.


No I don't think it's ok.

First off you are confusing LD with sexless.

LD means that one spouse has a lower sex drive than the other. It does not mean that there is no sex going on.. it means that there is less sex than the HD person wants.

sexless marriages are caused by a lot of different problems... maybe one spouse is ND (no drive or asexual), it could be that problems in the marriage are so bad that one spouse is not emotionally capable of sex at that time...

If we say that cheating is ok then we are saying that not working on the marriage and fixing the problem is ok; that lying is ok; that using community assets on another person is ok;

I can only speak for myself. I'd rather just be honest and tell my spouse that I'm not going to live in a sexless marriage. Either we fix it or it's divorce. It's about what I can live with.

IMHO, no one has the right to make the unilateral decision to cheat... just be honest. Tell your spouse you want an open marriage, or you want a good sex life, or you want a divorce.

We create most of our own problems in life by lying and deceiving those who we supposedly love.


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## soulpotato

It's still cheating. Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening Rubymoon.
If the marriage is good otherwise, then I would not object to someone who was not getting sex in their marriage finding it somewhere else. This is assuming that they have already done everything they could to remedy the situation. 

There is a good chance the marriage would not last, but it might. 

I do not think anyone has the right to insist that their partner live a celibate life. 

In may cases divorce might be a better option but not all.


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## rubymoon

larry.gray said:


> You have an advantage on many of the frustrated men here on SIM. LD men are much less common than LD women. Your chances of ending up in a LTR with another man who is indifferent to sex isn't that likely. Not so for men... they can go into a new relationship and after the honeymoon stage they'll be back in the same place.


Heh.... If only marriage was all about sex, I'd be happily married for 127th time by now, and each consequent marriage would have been better than the pervious one  

If marriage was all and only about sex, I would have left long time ago. 

It's sooooooo much more, than that. And while I can find way more sex on any given night, I know I will never find anyone better for me than my H. I tried


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## rubymoon

EleGirl said:


> ...
> just be honest. Tell your spouse you want an open marriage, or you want a good sex life, or you want a divorce.


You really think that all these adult, intelligent people didn't think of that before coming here all broken in pieces by rejection to vent? 

The idea about open marriage must be particularly attractive to men with SHW's, because in divorce (especially, by cheating), they will lose it all - money, custody, etc.


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## 2ntnuf

My thoughts are:

Be honest and open

Above all, set you goals and stick to them.

Tell him what your boundaries are and consequences

I want to say offer to help, but I think he needs to do this himself. The help I was thinking of is like telling him where he can find information about mental health or counseling and then leave it to him.

Divorce before being unfaithful. 

Infidelity will kill the marriage and may ruin your self-esteem.

Preserve your sanity.

Make plans to start the 180 if things don't go the way you need them. It doesn't seem like you want the world. Don't settle for nothing either. 

See an attorney about a divorce. File when you believe he decides to slack off. That is, if he even works on his issues at all. 

Let him know you love him and want him, but you won't tolerate this. You must be healthy to be able to love him. This isn't healthy. 

Anyway, you are intelligent. You can figure it out. Keep the faith, but don't let yourself be taken advantage of.


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## MissScarlett

I thought long and hard about telling my DH how much I have thought about an affair this summer. The idea goes from black and white to a very grey area. I find a man in the same situation I'm in. We can give each other what we are missing and still have our family life too. Take the pressure off our spouses. Everyone's happy right? Totally understandable. 

I think the problem, though, is that I don't want my husband sleeping with me because he has to. That's the whole crux of the problem. I want to see desire on his part. I don't need pity sex or 'I better get her some or she's going to cheat on me'.

I don't particularly want to be divorced. I feel confident that I could fine a more compatible sexual partner. I do enjoy my life, though. We are in a good place in life, future looks good. Kids are nearly grown. DH shows me in many other ways he loves me. 

Yes I could find a better sexual partner. I even think some days it would be worth it trading in a pretty decent husband for the sex I dream of. 

I guess I am not willing to cash out yet. Not because I think things will get better but because I have it good in other ways. I weigh my life daily, what I have vs what I don't. I could threaten divorce. I could threaten affair. And what does it get me - does it get me desire and passion? No. It gets me laid regularly because he has to. 

So what options do you really have - suck it up, buttercup. Which is what so many of us are doing here on this board.


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## 4x4

You're not alone in the affair/outsourcing dreams department. I voted no though because I don't think I can split my life and love like that.



MissScarlett said:


> I think the problem, though, is that I don't want my husband sleeping with me because he has to. That's the whole crux of the problem. I want to see desire on his part. I don't need pity sex or 'I better get her some or she's going to cheat on me'.
> 
> I guess I am not willing to cash out yet. Not because I think things will get better but because I have it good in other ways. I weigh my life daily, what I have vs what I don't. I could threaten divorce. I could threaten affair. And what does it get me - does it get me desire and passion? No. It gets me laid regularly because he has to.
> 
> So what options do you really have - suck it up, buttercup. Which is what so many of us are doing here on this board.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Others will just tell you to suck it up and take what your partner can give. I can't get over the desire hurdle either.


----------



## 2xloser

I'd 'vote' that the worst part of cheating is the deception, lies, hiding, and emotional attachment -- which just might be impossible to keep away in any ongoing external outsourcing of sex. 

Getting sex elsewhere with consensus from the ND (no drive) partner, I'd say OK, if that works for the couple. One partner deciding on their own, lying about it and hiding it -- no dice. Attaching emotions -- no dice.

Giiven there's emotional risk, maybe that's where gigolos and prostitutes can come in?


----------



## ifweonly

My take on cheating is that it really is a lose-lose situation. In the end, I am not sure there ever is a winner. As far as breaking vows, they were scared if not broken when one spouse decided for what ever reason not to have sex with the other spouse. My take on sex is that it is part of the marriage intimacy. Maybe harsh but that is my position on sex outside of the marriage.


----------



## EleGirl

rubymoon said:


> You really think that all these adult, intelligent people didn't think of that before coming here all broken in pieces by rejection to vent?
> 
> The idea about open marriage must be particularly attractive to men with SHW's, because in divorce (especially, by cheating), they will lose it all - money, custody, etc.


Yep, few seem to ever ask about an open marriage.

Shoot few even really look into any kind of counseling or other help before coming here.


----------



## treyvion

ifweonly said:


> My take on cheating is that it really is a lose-lose situation. In the end, I am not sure there ever is a winner. As far as breaking vows, they were scared if not broken when one spouse decided for what ever reason not to have sex with the other spouse. My take on sex is that it is part of the marriage intimacy. Maybe harsh but that is my position on sex outside of the marriage.


If one was in a sexless position and they were "forced" to get sex outside the marriage, I don't think they were trying to "win".

I think they were trying to get their need met, one that was literally nearly killing their life. It does suck to have to do this if you are the type to be committed.

It won't be a guilt really, but it will kind of make you dead inside, or it can.


----------



## Holland

I think cheating is the cowards way out. Either fix it or move on. No excuses about kids and money, get the guts to take control or shut up and live/waste the rest of your life in a sexless cesspool. 

(referring to the general population, not a specific person).


----------



## Emerald

I believe in honesty is the best policy, so no to cheating which includes lying & sneaking around like a naughty child.

I will speak for myself here but it may resonate with some of you LD/Asexual folks here:

I have tried over the last 6 yrs. (married for 3) with current husband to meet his sexual needs but it is never good enough for him....& he is fairly LD. He wants to be Highly Desired. He wants me to crave sex with him. I am willing to do *almost* anything in bed with enthusiasm..........I was honest from day 1. 

I suppose during the honeymoon phase of our relationship he could "overlook" stuff....I don't really know.

So he has decided that he no longer wants to have sex with me but doesn't want to divorce right now. I am still deciding what I want.

...back to the topic here.....Yes, I have opened up the marriage.

Do I believe that all sexless marriages should be open? Probably not a good idea for most marriages.


----------



## zackie

I have a really good friend in this situation. The problem is, when one is expected to just "suck it up and deal with it", the LD partner is getting their needs met while the other suffers. It's easy to tell someone to either deal with it or divorce, because then that person becomes the parent who broke up their family and deserted their spouse over sex. It really is a no-win situation and I wouldn't judge someone in how they chose to go about getting their needs met.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good morning staarz21
I think the problem is that many LD people do not want sex, but still see it as *important*. They already think that their HD partner is Slvt, pervert, old goat, whatever- and think that they should just control their "animal" urges. They will see an open relationship as completely unacceptable. 

FWIW, during the many years I was in a HD/LD relationship my wife made it very clear that an open relationship was out of the question. My only choice was to have left here which would have completely devastated her - she *loved* me, she just didn't want sex .




staarz21 said:


> Feisty.
> 
> 
> Why can't they be honest? Seems legit.
> 
> Really. Get a paper drawn up by a lawyer that can be used as evidence stating that you both agreed to outsource sex.
> 
> I really don't know if you can do that or not...probably... since you can sue for just about anything these days...
> 
> But be honest. Straight up say, "Look, I need more sex. Period. Either you're going to at least try to meet me halfway or I am going to seek it elsewhere. This isn't up for discussion unless you agree to try.I would prefer that you do because I love you and I want you. If you don't want to try and don't want me going elsewhere...there's the door."
> 
> That would be a choice you (general you, not you...you) would HAVE to make. If your partner would be deeply hurt by cheating and wouldn't budge on opening up the marriage, but isn't willing to put forth the effort themselves either....those are the choices you have.
> 
> Or I guess you could choose to lie and deceive...then they find out anyway - because they usually always find out.


----------



## rubymoon

ifweonly said:


> My take on cheating is that it really is a lose-lose situation. In the end, I am not sure there ever is a winner.


Hm... I don't think anyone sees it as a competition. It's about patching the issue, not getting a prise. At least, that's what I implied in the OP.


----------



## murphy5

EleGirl said:


> Yep, few seem to ever ask about an open marriage.
> 
> Shoot few even really look into any kind of counseling or other help before coming here.


That is what I really do not understand. There are so many options, and few are tried. Yeah, they lament "I begged her for sex....", but never changed their game, took them to the doctor, worked on romance and asked what turned the spouse on, bought sex toys/lingerie, got a babysitter for the kids for the weekend.....

Always an excuse why to not strongly pursue sex.

I will say it again, if you get permission first, it is not cheating.

I know there will be selfish spouses that will NOT give permission and simultaneously shut down the sex. But that is what divorce is for. I bet a lot of the sexless spouses would, if asked in the right way with proper boundaries set, give a hall pass.


----------



## rubymoon

staarz21 said:


> Why can't they be honest? Seems legit.
> 
> Really. Get a paper drawn up by a lawyer that can be used as evidence stating that you both agreed to outsource sex.


Because "cheating" presents an illusion or a chance, that while getting what HD partner wants, nothing will change at home, because LD partner doesn't know about it. I said "an illusion", but it's a strong one, almost a hope to be able to cover and control it all. 



staarz21 said:


> But be honest. Straight up say, "Look, I need more sex. Period. Either you're going to at least try to meet me halfway or I am going to seek it elsewhere. This isn't up for discussion unless you agree to try.I would prefer that you do because I love you and I want you. If you don't want to try and don't want me going elsewhere...there's the door."


You are missing the point: HD folks do NOT WANT a DIVORCE. They want sex. Preferrably with their spouses.


----------



## Deejo

If you are actively concealing from and lying to your partner about your behavior, it is betrayal, cheating, infidelity. Full stop.


----------



## rubymoon

murphy5 said:


> That is what I really do not understand. There are so many options, and few are tried. Yeah, they lament "I begged her for sex....", but never changed their game, took them to the doctor, worked on romance and asked what turned the spouse on, bought sex toys/lingerie, got a babysitter for the kids for the weekend.....


Not sure who is right, but I am sure they tried a lot. Maybe not the entire list, but as much as they felt they could. 

Most of these folks, were happy or at least Ok with their sex lives before marriage/kids. And at that time, they've learnt about their partner's likes and dislikes up and down - or so they thought. 

Also, why would someone take someone esle to a doctor? Can the one with LD go to a doctor on his/her own? That's exactly what HD folks are facing - no desire to fix the problem!


----------



## bild-a-loco

I can understand the OP's frustration and desperation - perhaps have the discussion of an open relationship with them, maybe that will open their eyes a little bit. Nothing seems to be working here, so I can fully understand the frustration and anxiety. 

I have two friends who are in long-term poly relationships and I used to think that was crazy - now I'm so envious of them I can barely stand it. 

In the end, as others have said, cheating bears a negative connotation for a reason - it's not right. Either wake her up, get her permission, or opt out and reboot with someone else. Cheating is only going to make you feel worse in the long run, plus she's likely going to end up with half your stuff. Nobody wants that...


----------



## Marduk

Listen.

It's one thing if the HD spouse says to the LD spouse that if they don't get a reasonable amount of sex in the marriage, then they're going to split and the HD spouse will find it elsewhere.

The key things here is that it's on the up and up, and reasonable. Like, a few times a week or something. Not a few times a day. The issue at hand is that the LD spouse may have in fact locked the HD spouse into a binding agreement and then withheld the goods -- like my first wife. Lots of sex, then engaged/married, and it dries up. "Oops, I never really liked sex to begin with, so can we do it once or twice a year?" Not reasonable.

However, going behind the person's back betrays a lack of honour about the situation, and is not a good path forward.

And who knows? Maybe the LD spouse will be relieved to be out of the marriage too, because they're just not into the HD spouse that much, or it's too much pressure, or they just don't want to work on whatever is making them LD.


----------



## murphy5

rubymoon said:


> Also, why would someone take someone esle to a doctor? Can the one with LD go to a doctor on his/her own? That's exactly what HD folks are facing - no desire to fix the problem!



no you can not trust them to do it on their own. They have been dogging it for a decade, refusing to improve the sex, refusing to lift a finger to help.

The partner is desperate, this is the last thing partner is going to try before saying "I give up" and filing.

So this partner is going to assume the wife is going to go to a sex disfunction specialist and seriously ask for hormone replacement therapy? Or that this LD guy is going to make an apt with a urologist for Viagra/trimix and or testosterone treatments? 

We are talking about people who think nothing is wrong with their marriage. That it is normal to not ever desire sex, normal to allow the spouse to have sex maybe once a year on their birthday. Bletch.

Yeah, we are talking about spoiled selfish partners who are in complete denial about their lack of sex. You need to take them, sit in the office, and hear what the doctor says with your own two ears.

The hilarious thing is, given the right hormone treatment, most of these sexless partners would probably turn back into randy teenagers at the prom. They would actually WANT sex again, not merely tolerate it.


----------



## jaquen

I think people who willfully sexually abandon their spouses have broken their vows and have no right to expect sexual fidelity from their neglected spouse. You can not starve a person and then expect them to not eventually find food elsewhere. 

But I think it's just a lot better, in the end, for everyone involved if the abandoned party seeks divorce instead of complicating an already tragic situation with adultery.


----------



## rubymoon

murphy5 said:


> no you can not trust them to do it on their own. They have been dogging it for a decade, refusing to improve the sex, refusing to lift a finger to help.
> 
> The partner is desperate, this is the last thing partner is going to try before saying "I give up" and filing.
> 
> So this partner is going to assume the wife is going to go to a sex disfunction specialist and seriously ask for hormone replacement therapy? Or that this LD guy is going to make an apt with a urologist for Viagra/trimix and or testosterone treatments?
> 
> We are talking about people who think nothing is wrong with their marriage. That it is normal to not ever desire sex, normal to allow the spouse to have sex maybe once a year on their birthday. Bletch.
> 
> Yeah, we are talking about spoiled selfish partners who are in complete denial about their lack of sex. You need to take them, sit in the office, and hear what the doctor says with your own two ears.
> 
> The hilarious thing is, given the right hormone treatment, most of these sexless partners would probably turn back into randy teenagers at the prom. They would actually WANT sex again, not merely tolerate it.


Makes total sense. 

Or one can just start sleeping with other people. LOL. 

I'm personally not there. But I can tell you that folks who cheated because they witnessed how their spouses don't care about their needs, should not, and chances do not feel guilty.


----------



## Fozzy

Wouldn't work for me. A big factor for me is being able to look my kids in the eye, both now and in 20 years. I want to be able to give my daughters honest advice on their marriage day and not feel like a fraud.


----------



## Marduk

rubymoon said:


> Also, why would someone take someone esle to a doctor? Can the one with LD go to a doctor on his/her own? That's exactly what HD folks are facing - no desire to fix the problem!


The problem with hormone induced low desire (particularly for men) is that when the T level drops, desire for sex drops, but so does any desire to take any initiative to solve most problems.

I suspect the same is true for women.

I mean, if you no longer want sex, you may miss it, or you may just wonder what all the fuss was about and focus on other parts of your life that seem more important now that you're not horny all the time.

That and the ability to self-justify and reason your way out of it...

"it hasn't been that long..." "most married people don't have sex any more..." "you're being unreasonable..." "If you just did X and Y and Z more, maybe I'd want to..."

Etc.


----------



## Marduk

murphy5 said:


> The hilarious thing is, given the right hormone treatment, most of these sexless partners would probably turn back into randy teenagers at the prom. They would actually WANT sex again, not merely tolerate it.


The not-so-hilarious thing is that the guys I've known (including myself) that have had their wives claim the hormones/low sex drive thing is that the problem went away when either one of two things happened:

a) the guy got in shape, made his wife just a little bit nervous, became just a little bit "bad boy" and poof! The wife was suddenly horny for the husband all the time (what happened to me).

b) they split, and the newly free wife suddenly rediscovered her sex drive with mr next.

I'm not saying that hormone issues don't cause LD, and sometimes medical science needs to be resorted to.

I am saying that it seems like a bit of a cure-all excuse at the moment, and my guess is also that low T in both men and women can be caused... shockingly... by being around someone that you're not actually into at the moment.

And there's all kinds of non-medical ways of dealing with that.

I am NOT blaming the victim of infidelity -- I'm speaking from my experience.


----------



## rubymoon

marduk said:


> The problem with hormone induced low desire (particularly for men) is that when the T level drops, desire for sex drops, but so does any desire to take any initiative to solve most problems.
> 
> I suspect the same is true for women.
> .


I don't buy that. I know that medically it's a proven fact - T has a huge impact on problem-solving (which actually stems from healthy natural agression) abilities. However, if it was such a big factor, then I'd be able to easily tell apart those of my co-workers who are impotents - they'd be just sitting stairing at the wall. Yes, agression and problem-solving drive deminish with lower T, but not down to the floor! Which seems to be the case with those LD husbands discussed here.


----------



## rubymoon

Fozzy said:


> Wouldn't work for me. A big factor for me is being able to look my kids in the eye, both now and in 20 years. I want to be able to give my daughters honest advice on their marriage day and not feel like a fraud.


Hmm... So, you think that such an advice will be more sound if it comes from a divorcee? Or the someone who just hates his wife's guts? A bit confused on the "honest advice" part here.


----------



## 2ntnuf

rubymoon said:


> I don't buy that. I know that medically it's a proven fact - T has a huge impact on problem-solving (which actually stems from healthy natural agression) abilities. However, if it was such a big factor, then I'd be able to easily tell apart those of my co-workers who are impotents - they'd be just sitting stairing at the wall. Yes, agression and problem-solving drive deminish with lower T, but not down to the floor! Which seems to be the case with those LD husbands discussed here.


If this is true, and, I don't doubt you have done your homework, to what do you attribute the low desire plus the lack of desire to do anything?


----------



## treyvion

marduk said:


> The not-so-hilarious thing is that the guys I've known (including myself) that have had their wives claim the hormones/low sex drive thing is that the problem went away when either one of two things happened:
> 
> a) the guy got in shape, made his wife just a little bit nervous, became just a little bit "bad boy" and poof! The wife was suddenly horny for the husband all the time (what happened to me).
> 
> b) they split, and the newly free wife suddenly rediscovered her sex drive with mr next.
> 
> I'm not saying that hormone issues don't cause LD, and sometimes medical science needs to be resorted to.
> 
> I am saying that it seems like a bit of a cure-all excuse at the moment, and my guess is also that low T in both men and women can be caused... shockingly... by being around someone that you're not actually into at the moment.
> 
> And there's all kinds of non-medical ways of dealing with that.
> 
> I am NOT blaming the victim of infidelity -- I'm speaking from my experience.


You guys. Any of you that had your sex drive dragged down due to an LD partner or one who was not into you enough or one who you where not into enough....

When you corrected your situation with a new person did your sex drive and confidence restore? How long in an new situation did it take for you to have enough ego strength and confidence in your sexuality for it to be able to take the occasional ding?


----------



## almetcalf

zackie said:


> The problem is, when one is expected to just "suck it up and deal with it", the LD partner is getting their needs met while the other suffers. It's easy to tell someone to either deal with it or divorce, because then that person becomes the parent who broke up their family and deserted their spouse over sex.


You hit the nail on the head. The obtuse low drive or asexual partner looks like the saint when they are the one that drove the other person to cheat. And YES, they drove them to it! In all my reading and in all my looking into this issue I have only found ONE time when the low drive partner actually cared enough to try and do something about it. Most LD's are getting their needs met like you said and they are totally oblivious to the pain and hurt the other partner is going through. (And I don't care how much you talk to them about it or drag them to counselors or anything else. They just care because it is not a need of theirs!)

And I am also quite disturbed at all the people on here that act like divorce is somehow much better than cheating. Especially when kids are involved. That to me is heartless.


----------



## 2ntnuf

marduk said:


> I'm not saying that hormone issues don't cause LD, and sometimes medical science needs to be resorted to.
> 
> I am saying that it seems like a bit of a cure-all excuse at the moment, and my guess is also that low T in both men and women can be caused... shockingly... by being around someone that you're not actually into at the moment.
> 
> And there's all kinds of non-medical ways of dealing with that.
> 
> I am NOT blaming the victim of infidelity -- I'm speaking from my experience.


I didn't think you were blaming anyone. What I did think was...my first post on what to do for the low desire spouse might have been as accurate or relevant as any suggestion. 

It would be incredibly selfless for the higher desire to look the other way. 

The trouble is, I really think part of the ld's problem is repression due to life's up's and mostly downs, religious beliefs, parental guidance at a young age, and so on and so forth. We've read it all here before. 

Unfortunately, I also think part of the ld's issues stem directly from the hd spouse. Sorry folks, just being honest. Not trying to be hurtful.


----------



## speeedbump

marduk said:


> That and the ability to self-justify and reason your way out of it...
> 
> *"it hasn't been that long..." "most married people don't have sex any more..." "you're being unreasonable..." "If you just did X and Y and Z more, maybe I'd want to..."
> *
> Etc.


This. I hear these same excuses every time it comes up. Makes me sick.


----------



## Marduk

rubymoon said:


> I don't buy that. I know that medically it's a proven fact - T has a huge impact on problem-solving (which actually stems from healthy natural agression) abilities. However, if it was such a big factor, then I'd be able to easily tell apart those of my co-workers who are impotents - they'd be just sitting stairing at the wall. Yes, agression and problem-solving drive deminish with lower T, but not down to the floor! Which seems to be the case with those LD husbands discussed here.


I see at work every day. One of our senior guys got walked the other day because he could no longer make decisions or lead.

I know he's been struggling with health issues. He just couldn't clear the fog.

Most guys don't like to talk to the doctor about sexual issues. Doubly so if you lack the drive to do things about your life.


----------



## Marduk

treyvion said:


> You guys. Any of you that had your sex drive dragged down due to an LD partner or one who was not into you enough or one who you where not into enough....
> 
> When you corrected your situation with a new person did your sex drive and confidence restore?


Yes. When I divorced my first wife, started dating like crazy, finally got laid...

It was like a sexual revelation. 

I believe she said "Oh, my, I seem to have created a monster!"



> How long in an new situation did it take for you to have enough ego strength and confidence in your sexuality for it to be able to take the occasional ding?


I dunno. A year or so?


----------



## Fozzy

rubymoon said:


> Hmm... So, you think that such an advice will be more sound if it comes from a divorcee? Or the someone who just hates his wife's guts? A bit confused on the "honest advice" part here.


Yes and Yes. I think advice from someone who tried and failed vs some one who cheated is absolutely more valuable.

The "honest" part of "honest advice" comes from honesty. I view cheating as not just cheating on my spouse, but on my family. I would similarly view infidelity on my wife's part as the same.

Just how I'm wired. You may disagree.


----------



## Marduk

almetcalf said:


> And I am also quite disturbed at all the people on here that act like divorce is somehow much better than cheating. Especially when kids are involved. That to me is heartless.


No one can "drive" you to cheat. That's on you.

And I do think that a clean divorce is better than cheating, thank you very much. Although, you never know, the LD spouse may be open to the HD spouse having sex with other people. That's not cheating if they're honest and agree about it.

Besides, we're missing a key point: sometimes people need a wake up call. Being willing to exit a marriage because someone's not living up to their end of the deal is a hell of a wakeup call.

Sometimes to save a thing you have to be willing to destroy a thing.


----------



## Marduk

Oh, this may help:



> Researchers found that just being in the presence of a pretty member of the opposite sex causes a temporary boost in levels of testosterone and cortisol – both hormones associated with alertness and wellbeing.


Meeting pretty women makes men feel good - Telegraph

If you're an unattractive partner, you may in fact be lowering your spouse's testosterone levels.

Which in general is not a good thing for your sex life I would think.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Attractive people are more than just looks when you are in their presence. I've met women who were quite attractive physically. When I talked with them or listened to what they said, I didn't think they were so attractive. That doesn't mean there was no attraction left, just less in the way of considerate attraction and more just a need attraction.


----------



## rubymoon

almetcalf said:


> And I am also quite disturbed at all the people on here that act like divorce is somehow much better than cheating. Especially when kids are involved. That to me is heartless.


To me it's selfrighteous.


----------



## rubymoon

marduk said:


> I see at work every day. One of our senior guys got walked the other day because he could no longer make decisions or lead.
> 
> I know he's been struggling with health issues. He just couldn't clear the fog.
> 
> Most guys don't like to talk to the doctor about sexual issues. Doubly so if you lack the drive to do things about your life.


Sure it happens. But those posting here do not report that their LD partners lose their jobs, become too passive when it comes to their own needs and problems - most often, they are passive about problems of others. So most often, it's not a general depression and apathy, but it's viewing this issue as "not my problem". Not always, but more often than not. Just my observation.


----------



## sidney2718

rubymoon said:


> Because a lot of folks said that they have perfect marriages other than sex. Or they don't want to divorce because of kids. People have their own reasons to not want a divorce.


Lots of them. Sometimes they really love their LD spouses.



> So what would it do for the HD that the LD partner wants sex with some one else? What's the point of this experiment? Of course excitement with a new person is a powerful aphrodisiac for anyone - what are we proving/disproving here?


Nothing. There is another sad fact involved here as well. A fair percentage of extra marital sex is NEVER discovered. Exact figures are, of course, not known. But to my knowledge it sometimes goes like this: it is not hard for men and women to meet. It is not hard for the WS to find a sympathetic ear. Sometimes the soon to be AP is also suffering from a sexless marriage. They understand each other. They know that their marriages are not to be at risk, and it is gain-gain all around. Of course they have to be careful and the ones that don't get caught are careful.

I've known of one such affair that has lasted 20 years so far.

And there are other possible partners as well. A HD married woman finds an older HD man who is not married and for whatever reason isn't interested in marriage. The result can be a convenient affair.

These affairs can last because there is little drama involved. Nobody is waiting for anyone to file for divorce. Last minute cancellations do not bring anxiety and worry. And mutual tolerance goes a long way.

And of course they are fun. There are few of the problems of marriage. And the BS isn't likely to find out. Except that sometimes they do, of course and then the fecal matter hits the rotary device, except that sometimes the BS is happy that the pressure for unwanted sex is gone, the marriage is not threatened, and there is no reason for drama.


----------



## rubymoon

Sidney, that's honest and insightful. Thank you?


----------



## Marduk

rubymoon said:


> To me it's selfrighteous.


It's self righteous to actually demand that someone live up to the marriage contract?

Again, if you want to come to some agreement that someone else take up the slack if you don't want to, fine.


----------



## Marduk

rubymoon said:


> Sure it happens. But those posting here do not report that their LD partners lose their jobs, become too passive when it comes to their own needs and problems - most often, they are passive about problems of others. So most often, it's not a general depression and apathy, but it's viewing this issue as "not my problem". Not always, but more often than not. Just my observation.


ok, ok, ok, I'll be clear about what I'm trying to say.

If the LD spouse is going to say it's hormones, then that hormonal imbalance _should_ logically show up in places other than the bedroom.

As an example, for a man, I would expect less drive at work, foggy thinking, less competition on the golf course, and for his head not to be turned by the pretty young thing over there.

Because, you know, if his T levels are low, these are the kinds of things you'd expect. And do happen.

But if the other stuff doesn't happen, I wouldn't necessarily think that hormones would be a good reason, just an excuse.


----------



## Holland

almetcalf said:


> .................................try and do something about it. Most LD's are getting their needs met like you said and they are totally oblivious to the pain and hurt the other partner is going through. (And I don't care how much you talk to them about it or drag them to counselors or anything else. They just care because it is not a need of theirs!)
> 
> *And I am also quite disturbed at all the people on here that act like divorce is somehow much better than cheating. Especially when kids are involved. That to me is heartless.*


If divorce or cheating were the only two options then absolutley divorce is better than cheating. Divorce is a legal act, it is difficult, painful but ultimately honourable. Cheating is despicable and can never be justified.

There are other options such as fixing the marriage or living with what you have got abd dealing with it.

Kids are not an excuse to choose cheating over divorce. Children ARE affected by their parents poor marriages and people that think that kids don't have life long issues due to living in a house without affection are missing the whole picture. Children from such marriages can grow up to repeat the situation, they can have a hard time forming intimate relationships in adulthood. Far better to show children that dysfunctional marriages are not a place to stay in.

An amicable divorce is much healthier in the long run for children than a lifetime of suffering in a dysfunctional, loveless home.

Children do ultimately discover a parents infidelity, how any parent could chose to take that risk is what I find disturbing.


----------



## murphy5

marduk said:


> one of two things happened:
> 
> a) the guy got in shape, made his wife just a little bit nervous, became just a little bit "bad boy" and poof! The wife was suddenly horny for the husband all the time (what happened to me).
> 
> b) they split, and the newly free wife suddenly rediscovered her sex drive with mr next.
> .


true, but it think a woman would have to be LD to begin with to be able to withhold sex like that, for years, just to be mean. That or they are getting poked by all sots of guys outside the marriage and owe their sexual fidelity to a bigger ****.:rofl:

like I could never do that with my wife, say "Im mad at you and cutting you off from sex". She would just chuckle and know in a couple days I would be sniffing around for poon and to make up


----------



## Marduk

murphy5 said:


> true, but it think a woman would have to be LD to begin with to be able to withhold sex like that, for years, just to be mean. That or they are getting poked by all sots of guys outside the marriage and owe their sexual fidelity to a bigger ****.:rofl:


In my first marriage, it was both.

In my second, she didn't cut off sex, but things had cooled off.

No more.


----------



## rubymoon

Holland said:


> Children ARE affected by their parents poor marriages and people that think that kids don't have life long issues due to living in a house without affection are missing the whole picture. Children from such marriages can grow up to repeat the situation, they can have a hard time forming intimate relationships in adulthood.


You can say exactly the same thing about divorce. 



Holland said:


> An amicable divorce is much healthier in the long run for children than a lifetime of suffering in a dysfunctional, loveless home.


Yes, this happens in movies! When real people go through real divorce and quite often use their kids as a weapon, that's when it gets ugly and damaging for the kids!! No cheating can compare to the ugliness of a regular/average divorce. 



Holland said:


> Children do ultimately discover a parents infidelity


No, they don't. Once again, most often, they don't. 

Not advocating cheating versus divorce what so ever. Just trying to bring some reality into the picture.


----------



## Anonymous07

rubymoon said:


> No, they don't. Once again, most often, they don't.
> 
> Not advocating cheating versus divorce what so ever. Just trying to bring some reality into the picture.


I'm going to disagree. The truth will always come out in the end and the kids will find out about their parents cheating. 

My dad had, what I would consider, an emotional affair with a co-worker. He tried his absolute best to hide it from everyone, but I still found out. It was a devastating thing to find out about, as it changed how I viewed my dad. My parents worked through that issue, but I will never look at my dad the same way. 

I would rather see a couple divorced than having a spouse betray the other like that. 

A sexless relationship is no excuse for cheating. There is absolutely nothing that will justify cheating. If you are so unhappy in the marriage, it is better to leave than cheat. I'm in an unhappy marriage myself and will leave before I ever cheat on my husband.


----------



## Married but Happy

I think rubymoon is correct. Over 80% of all cheating is NEVER discovered or revealed, based on various statistics I've found. That's not to say the relationship does not suffer in some of these cases, which may also affect the children, but you can't prove that this is true in cases where there is no known cheating.


----------



## Anonymous07

Married but Happy said:


> I think rubymoon is correct. Over 80% of all cheating is NEVER discovered or revealed, based on various statistics I've found. That's not to say the relationship does not suffer in some of these cases, which may also affect the children, but you can't prove that this is true in cases where there is no known cheating.


I wonder where they get these "statistics". :scratchhead: So the cheater "thinks" that no one knows and says he was "successful" at keeping it hidden? 

I have always found that, no matter what, the truth will come out eventually. Maybe not right away or even in a couple years, but eventually people will find out about it. Lies never stay hidden forever.


----------



## Married but Happy

Perhaps, but I've observed otherwise, and the statistics are from several different studies. It's nice to think that cheaters will be revealed and suffer consequences, but I think that's wishful thinking.


----------



## unbelievable

Technically, it's cheating, but morally, it is not. One cannot steal abandoned property. I agreed to take care of the sexual needs of my wife. If I can fulfill my promise but I refuse to do so, I can hardly cry "foul" if she gets her needs met elsewhere. It is immoral to use a marriage license to force celibacy upon a healthy human just as it would be immoral to force starvation or death from exposure onto one. If a spouse refuses to have sex, how can they possibly claim victim status in an adultery? No one has infringed upon any right or claim that they valued in the slightest. It's my duty to feed my kids. If I refused and someone else finally did, how would I be a victim? If you can be a sexual partner but you refuse to do so and that was not terms your spouse agreed to before marriage, you are not a spouse. You would be a fraud. One who abandons their duty as a spouse doesn't get to claim spousal privileges (at least, not morally).


----------



## jaquen

Anonymous07 said:


> I'm going to disagree. The truth will always come out in the end and the kids will find out about their parents cheating.



A lifetime of films and TV shows leave the false impression that cheating is always revealed.

It is not. Many people die taking sexual indiscretions to the grave with them. That will only increase with the advent of the internet and more opportunities for quick, anonymous sex.


----------



## rubymoon

Anonymous07 said:


> The truth will always come out in the end


Seriously. Truth SOMETIMES comes out. They still don't know who killed Kennedy, if we go the "aways" route and generalize. 

Studies do show that truth doesn't come out more often than not. As to how those studies work, I bet you can read about different methods of statistical data gathering and analysis. 



Anonymous07 said:


> If you are so unhappy in the marriage, it is better to leave than cheat.


I already said that I am discussing the subject in general, not trying to justify my own actions. BTW, my marriage is a happy one.


----------



## Anonymous07

Married but Happy said:


> Perhaps, but I've observed otherwise, and the statistics are from several different studies. It's nice to think that cheaters will be revealed and suffer consequences, but I think that's wishful thinking.


Maybe. 

We found out my grandpa cheated after he died, so he didn't "pay the consequences", but the truth eventually came out.


----------



## Anonymous07

My opinion, to put it simply, is:

*Two wrongs don't make a right.*

Just because your spouse does something wrong to you(no sex), does not give you a right to do something wrong to them(cheat).


----------



## jaquen

Anonymous07 said:


> Maybe.
> 
> We found out my grandpa cheated after he died, so he didn't "pay the consequences", but the truth eventually came out.


There really is no "maybe" about it. You are simply incorrect.

Do you have any idea how many murders have gone unsolved across the totality of human history?

If someone can kill me and no human being ever finds out (on this side of living), why would you ever think every sexual indiscretion will somehow "always" surface?

Do you have any clue how many people have cheated with prostitutes alone and no one EVER finds out? Prostitutes specialize in discrete sex, secrets, and often don't even remember their customers. You really think a man who ran down to the corner a few times to get a blow job is somehow going to be found out if he doesn't tell anyone?


----------



## Marduk

Married but Happy said:


> I think rubymoon is correct. Over 80% of all cheating is NEVER discovered or revealed, based on various statistics I've found. That's not to say the relationship does not suffer in some of these cases, which may also affect the children, but you can't prove that this is true in cases where there is no known cheating.


I've read stats that say that 90% of affairs are discovered... eventually.

Although I find the stats and the underlying data pretty suspect.

For example, who is going to admit to an affair that wasn't found? And just because it wasn't found _today_ who's to say what happens years down the road?

I discovered my ex-wife's affair months into our separation, and only because a mutual friend confessed it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

CWI vs SiM Smackdown!

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!!!

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----------



## Married but Happy

marduk said:


> I've read stats that say that 90% of affairs are discovered... eventually.


I'd like to believe that, but I think the numbers I stated are far closer to reality. Obviously, really accurate numbers are difficult to obtain, so there is some selection bias in some of the studies, but multiple studies seem to give the same range of numbers.

Almost all women who cheat never get caught by their partners.... but a fifth of men DO get found out | Mail Online

Infidelity Statistics | Statistic Brain

Infidelity Statistics


----------



## jasmine9

I wouldn't cheat but I would for sure let spouse know that it is unacceptable and would divorce if it had been years. I can understand going through periods, etc but how does one tolerate years of no sex? I couldn't and wouldn't do it.


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## rubymoon

Anonymous07 said:


> My opinion, to put it simply, is:
> 
> *Two wrongs don't make a right.*
> 
> Just because your spouse does something wrong to you(no sex), does not give you a right to do something wrong to them(cheat).


It's not about being right. It's about survival. 

I disagree - if you abandon your duties, then the spouse should be relieved of his/hers. You lie that you care - he lies that he is faithful. Sure, it doesn't make it right, but it makes it FAIR.


----------



## rubymoon

Anonymous07 said:


> My dad had, what I would consider, an emotional affair with a co-worker. He tried his absolute best to hide it from everyone, but I still found out. It was a devastating thing to find out about, as it changed how I viewed my dad. My parents worked through that issue, but I will never look at my dad the same way.


Everyone is entitled to their own take on any given situation, but I personally think that you are in the wrong here. It shouldn't be any of your business what your parents do as far as their marriage and personal life/space. If they are good parents to you, then that's all that matters. They should be entitled to a life outside of being your parents - hence, being judged by you. Just the way I see it.


----------



## Racer

My simple take on this… It’s still cheating.
Ask for a divorce or get both of you to commit to working on this very hard. 

Why? Staying in it as the HD. You will build resentment. Even an outside relationship doesn’t change the fact that your spouse isn’t sexual with you. The resentment stays and grows towards them. You might even get more resentful because you are ‘having to’ lower your morals to accommodate this situation they are causing…. End result; Resentful marriage and general toxins being pumped into the relationship regardless of whether or not you are caught. 

Even an open relationship has a poor chance at success for the same reason. If you aren’t inclined that way to start with… being forced into a situation by your spouse to change your moral perspective will be a point of anger. Particularly if they are more than capable of having a sexual relationship with you. Still ends up toxic. 

Hookers… temporary relief. Still doesn’t fix the relationship. Still pissed about your situation your spouse is causing and not working on solving.

No matter how you approach this, you’ll end up in a toxic relationship with your spouse if you are built like me. Even if your spouse starts putting out, you’ll resent them if its duty sex. You have a basic need to be wanted and desired by your mate. If it isn’t happening…. Just go; It wasn’t meant to be anything more than just friends. Sexless relationships make very good ex-spouses where you like each other… but not in ‘that way’.


----------



## Married but Happy

Racer said:


> You have a basic need to be wanted and desired by your mate. If it isn’t happening…. Just go; It wasn’t meant to be anything more than just friends. Sexless relationships make very good ex-spouses where you like each other… but not in ‘that way’.


If you could divorce and live next door as friends, especially if you have kids - perhaps. Or maybe the costs and even losses of divorce outweigh the benefits, when you have kids and intertwined finances that will inevitably suffer.

I'd greatly prefer the open marriage model, myself, and having experience with such I think it could work well unless you have a personal antipathy towards it - which understandably many will. If your needs are getting met from whatever source, resentment of your spouse isn't a given, IMO.

An excerpt from the book "Sex at Dawn" comes to mind:



> "Move on?" Really? Is abandonment of one's family the "adult" option for dealing with the inherent conflict between socially sanctioned romantic ideals and the inconvenient truths of sexual passion?


----------



## murphy5

Racer said:


> Even an open relationship has a poor chance at success for the same reason. If you aren’t inclined that way to start with… being forced into a situation by your spouse to change your moral perspective will be a point of anger. Particularly if they are more than capable of having a sexual relationship with you. Still ends up toxic.
> .


everyone has their own moral compass. But I think you might be over thinking this.

If I had a stable, loving, caring marriage, and spouse just did not enjoy sex, but WOULD be ok with a hall pass....I think an acceptable alternative would be to have a 2nd buddy to fool around with. Maybe once or twice a week. The best of both worlds...the long term marriage intact, none of the divorce unpleasantness (financial ruin, WWII), AND when I got horny I would just call my buddy.

Ideal situation? No, far from it.
Better than divorce? Very possibly, depending on the individuals involved. 

Ideally the buddy would also be married in a HD/LD situation. Maybe our two spouses could get together and read books or something while we got laid?

the key here is NO CHEATING, you had full permission to proceed


----------



## unbelievable

Anonymous07 said:


> My opinion, to put it simply, is:
> 
> *Two wrongs don't make a right.*
> 
> Just because your spouse does something wrong to you(no sex), does not give you a right to do something wrong to them(cheat).


So the solution is to commit financial suicide by divorcing someone who isn't even a real spouse? Piss on abusers. They get what they get.


----------



## jaquen

Willingly putting your spouse in the position where they can either:

A. Cheat.
B. Divorce.

Just to get their sexual need met is about one of the most cruelest positions you can put another person, never mind the one you vowed to cherish for all your life. Even worse is when the withholding spouse still expects perfect monogamy. 

How disgusting can you be?


----------



## 2ntnuf

If you are willingly putting them there, it's abuse. You have your answer. Getting away from the abuser is the only thing to do. The law as any officer can testify is on your side. 

If you have a choice, then you make it. Sometimes, as in many other situations, the choice is tough to make, but if someone doesn't love you, then they don't love you and you are wasting your time. Then, it's on you. 

We each are individuals who have rights, in the U.S. anyway, and we can live our lives as we please. Make the tough choice. The right one. 

You will, if it is abuse, get all that is coming to you and more. You will have many many folks stand up for you. You will automatically get all kinds of financial support from your ex. You can move on with no guilt. Your abuser can live with the guilt.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

It's not 2 wrongs making a right, it's fighting fire with fire. The withholder deserves what they get.


----------



## Holland

rubymoon said:


> It's not about being right. It's about survival.
> 
> I disagree - if you abandon your duties, then the spouse should be relieved of his/hers. You lie that you care - he lies that he is faithful. Sure, it doesn't make it right, but it makes it FAIR.


Doing wrong to another (your spouse and your children) does not make cheating fair. It makes the cheater equally as neglectful as the with holder.

Marriage isn't a game of fairness, it is an institution that is supposed to bring happiness, safety to family and fulfillment. Neither the cheater or with holder are doing those things. To try and justify cheating because the other spouse did wrong as well just doesn't cut it IMO. There is no justification for cheating, weak people may cite no sex as justification but they are simple that, weak.

There are better options than cheating. 

And yes, many children eventually find out. Regardless even if they don't why take the risk of your child despising you for doing something so wrong.


----------



## unbelievable

Holland said:


> Doing wrong to another (your spouse and your children) does not make cheating fair. It makes the cheater equally as neglectful as the with holder.
> 
> Marriage isn't a game of fairness, it is an institution that is supposed to bring happiness, safety to family and fulfillment. Neither the cheater or with holder are doing those things. To try and justify cheating because the other spouse did wrong as well just doesn't cut it IMO. There is no justification for cheating, weak people may cite no sex as justification but they are simple that, weak.
> 
> There are better options than cheating.
> 
> And yes, many children eventually find out. Regardless even if they don't why take the risk of your child despising you for doing something so wrong.


The man who doesn't abandon his kids to the care of a hateful bat is weak? I rather think not. Leaving a hateful withholder is the easiest route anyone could take. Before I'd leave my kids alone with the devil, I'd figure out a way to hang with her until they were old enough to figure out which end was up. 
There is more than one flavor of sexual unfaithfulness. One is having sex with someone other than your spouse. The other is promising to handle your spouse's sexual business but not doing so. One is not more honorable than the other. A faithful employee is not one who simply doesn't work for a competitor, it requires showing up and doing what they promised.
Now, a fraudulent spouse, if they had any honor, would file for divorce and leave with nothing more than they brought to the marriage. It was their choice to commit fraud. They shouldn't be rewarded for doing so. The defrauded spouse shouldn't be victimized further just because they no longer wished to be abused. Should wives who were battered lose their kids and half their income to their abusers? That is the choice many husbands face.


----------



## Holland

unbelievable said:


> *The man who doesn't abandon his kids to the care of a hateful bat is weak? I rather think not. Before I'd leave my kids alone with the devil, I*'d figure out a way to hang with her until they were old enough to figure out which end was up.
> There is more than one flavor of sexual unfaithfulness. One is having sex with someone other than your spouse. The other is promising to handle your spouse's sexual business but not doing so. One is not more honorable than the other. A faithful employee is not one who simply doesn't work for a competitor, it requires showing up and doing what they promised.
> Now, a fraudulent spouse, if they had any honor, would file for divorce and leave with nothing more than they brought to the marriage. It was their choice to commit fraud. They shouldn't be rewarded for doing so. The defrauded spouse shouldn't be victimized further just because they no longer wished to be abused. Should wives who were battered lose their kids and half their income to their abusers? That is the choice many husbands face.


I agree with much of what you say on this topic FWIW. I am 100% against with holding and do believe it to be a crime against the marriage. But that crime should be dealt with by divorce, not cheating which is an immoral thing to do. It hurts all involved.

However I don't concur that a with holder is a hateful person and unable to care for children. AND it is not only men that are the subjects of rejection, risk losing time with their kids and are taken down financially with divorce.
Many LD people are good people, good parents yet are LD, surely you are not suggesting that LD people are also bad parents?

The bolded part is taking the discussion along a different path. If a spouse is mentally ill then that is a whole different issue and one that faces both genders.

Maybe people should be honest and say if it is just about money because that is how it is starting to sound.


----------



## larry.gray

Hmmm, I wonder why she got banned?


----------



## thatbpguy

rubymoon said:


> Is it really cheating when your spouse is jot interested in sex? We can call them LD, asexual, whatever... it may be from naturally low hormones, stress, whatever... The point is there is no sex in marriage because one of the spouses is not up for it all the time.
> 
> The more I read about it, the more I lean towards the thought that an affair in a sexless marriage is survival, not betrayal. Here is why:
> 
> Betrayal first happened when HD (as in higher desire, not necessarily that high) spouse starts feeling rejected, unwanted, and frankly, simply dumped.
> 
> Secondly, if Lower D spouse doesn't feel like sex and love are connected, that intimacy means a lot, that satisfaction of physical desires is important, then what is wrong with getting all of it elsewhere?! If all HD needs are just silly, meaningless nonsense, then why would it be bad to have them satisfied by someone else?
> 
> Yes, I know about vows, but some of them are already broken if one doesn't want to meet the other one at least half way. A marriage like that is already limping. And, no, the goal is not to get even or to break the second leg of a limping marriage. However, it looks like the only leg of such marriage is the HD spouse, who ends up carrying most of the weight created by the difference of two people. It would be only fair to unload some of that weight, especially since LD partner supposedly truly believes that those needs are not important enough to make an effort.


My wife was married to a cruel man who abused her until she fled from him. Thy married at 22. When he was 26 he got testicular cancer and had his testicles removed. He proudly announced to her, "well, no more sex for you". And so it was. None. At all. She stayed married to him for 10 years as they had twin boys together. During those 10 years she was 100% faithful. I asked her why she didn't take on a lover to satisfy her needs only. 

Her answer- "it would have been cheating".


----------



## ifweonly

There is a lot of play on words here but since my previous post I have given much thought to this topic. When I married, I repeated a vow to my wife (and others) that I amongst other things, would be faithful to her. If illness were with either of us (I have been there) then fidelity of our marriage would be strained but in tact. 

I think that the lack of intimacy in our marriage could be addressed by the agreement of an open marriage. Before I get really beat up here on whether an open marriage is "cheating" or not, I believe it could be a reasonable choice in lieu of an outright divorce if everything else in the union was acceptable to both spouses.

Now, I am definitely HD and could burn the sheets off of a bed (or wherever) but my wife not exactly LD but somewhere in between. And I will not sell her short as she has come a long, long way from where we were when we first married. If I were ill and unable to satisfy her needs, I would agree to an open marriage so she could obtain her needed satisfaction without my involvement. Would she actually do it? I am not sure that she would but if the situation were reversed would I? I probably end up purchasing a lot of sheets!


----------



## Holland

Personally I don't see an open marriage as cheating because it is not done deceptively. It could be a reasonable solution for those that want to keep the marriage together as long as both spouses are OK with it.
Not something I would ever do but then again I have never with held sex.


----------



## BostonBruins32

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's not 2 wrongs making a right, it's fighting fire with fire. The withholder deserves what they get.


100% agree. 

Sorry, but save for physical pain or a history of trauma, lds can cry me a river. 

My mc asked my wife if it would be ok if I sought sex elsewhere. She got real quiet because it's a great point and great reality.


----------



## love=pain

Cheating on a spouse because of lack of sex is no different than cheating because they don't meet your emotional needs, are abusive, keep a messy house etc. it is an excuse an excuse that doesn't work IMO.
You always have the right to leave, spouse is a horrible parent don't want the kids involved? then you have to pick up the slack as a parent, money issues figure out a plan to solve the cash crunch, afraid your spouse will poison the kids against you then strengthen your bond with the kids.

What looks better- a hard working divorced parent who has kept their reputation and honor intact by leaving a bad situation and setting a example to their kids that while divorce is not a great option gong outside the marriage is worse. 

Or
Someone who stays goes outside the marriage gets caught and all the turmoil that runs through the house from cheating.

No matter how good or bad a parent is when the kids find out you cheated on them you will stain your relationship with those kids forever(infidelity is a cancer to everyone involved) and they probably will take the bad parent's side anyhow.

Try explaining to your kids that mommy or daddy was horny and not getting any at home so they went out to accommodate their carnal desires.

Every relationship is different the little twists and turns make everyone unique so there is never a one size fits all but there are choices, hard choices sometimes but you have to get creative to find your way through, throwing your hands up saying I'm stuck here nothing will change I might as well cheat 
is the worst of options


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Cheating in sexless marriage*



Anonymous07 said:


> I would rather see a couple divorced than having a spouse betray the other like that.
> 
> A sexless relationship is no excuse for cheating.


I make no distinction between the betrayal of rendering your partner sexless, and infidelity.

Sexless marriages are more tacit, and become a punch line. Not 'having and holding' simply doesn't get called out and have a finger pointed at it the same way ignoring 'forsaking all others' does.

Rendering your partner celibate is every bit as much a betrayal as infidelity. 

But it by no means justifies infidelity.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Deejo said:


> I make no distinction between the betrayal of rendering your partner sexless, and infidelity.
> 
> Sexless marriages are more tacit, and become a punch line. Not 'having and holding' simply doesn't get called out and have a finger pointed at it the same way ignoring 'forsaking all others' does.
> 
> Rendering your partner celibate is every bit as much a betrayal as infidelity.
> 
> But it by no means justifies infidelity.



Were you an unfaithful spouse? I thought you got out first.

Anyway, no one renders their partner celibate. If they cheat, they are not celibate. If they leave and find another, they are not celibate. No one is forced to withstand celibacy in a marriage. They choose to be celibate based on their own internal boundaries and character, sometimes even flaws. 

Infidelity is quite the opposite. The unfaithful spouse does not ask for permission. It's generally not known that they are seeking lover outside the marriage. There is no choice for the betrayed spouse. That's the difference. It's pretty much apples and oranges. 

I'm sorry she would not have sex with you. It hurts more when she is the one you really want over all others.


----------



## Married but Happy

Why is it the LD spouse gets a free pass to keep the marriage when they've broken their vows, but a spouse who wants to get their sexual needs satisfied elsewhere is supposed to leave the marriage? The first is a deliberate act of omission, while the second would be an act of commission. The latter is usually seen as a worse offense, but both are equally damaging to the marriage. Often, I think the act of omission is actually commission as well, if the LD spouse is aware of their behavior and perpetuates it while staying in the marriage.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Married but Happy said:


> Why is it the LD spouse gets a free pass to keep the marriage when they've broken their vows, but a spouse who wants to get their sexual needs satisfied elsewhere is supposed to leave the marriage? The first is a deliberate act of omission, while the second would be an act of commission. The latter is usually seen as a worse offense, but both are equally damaging to the marriage. Often, I think the act of omission is actually commission as well, if the LD spouse is aware of their behavior and perpetuates it while staying in the marriage.


The low drive only gets a free pass because the high drive spouse allows it. As others have claimed, the ld is satisfied and likely doesn't think any thing is wrong. Most hd spouses, when they are women, will not say much. They will expect their husband to know them. Maybe that is part of the problem? The spouses didn't know each other like they thought they did? Who's fault is that anyway? Both?

If the ld knows what the hd wants and refuses to do anything, that's pretty much abuse, isn't it? It's pretty much when something is done to make another comply to our own wishes that an action becomes abuse. That can be applied to so much more than just sex. Maybe, in some cases, it is what leads to ld?


----------



## jaquen

love=pain said:


> Try explaining to your kids that mommy or daddy was horny and not getting any at home so they went out to accommodate their carnal desires.



My parents did not discuss their marital issues and sexual life with their kids; it was off limits and none of our damn business.

But if a child is noisy enough that you feel the need to explain what mommy or daddy was doing with their private parts, then they should be tough enough to be taught a lesson that living in a sexless marriage is a cruel torture that they should never, ever settle for. It seems like a teachable moment to me.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good morning all
Imagine a HD person who loves their LD spouse and doesn't want to hurt them by leaving. Their options are now very limited.

Isn't it possible that a well hidden affair would do less damage to the LD partner than a divorce?


----------



## murphy5

richardsharpe said:


> Good morning all
> Imagine a HD person who loves their LD spouse and doesn't want to hurt them by leaving. Their options are now very limited.
> 
> Isn't it possible that a well hidden affair would do less damage to the LD partner than a divorce?


YOU would have to live with it. And that would eat away at your soul.

Just ask the LD spouse for permission, then those problems go away.


----------



## Mr The Other

ladymisato said:


> It's a breaking of vows even if the other spouse broke vows first.
> 
> Here are some examples to consider: suppose one spouse had a paralyzing accident or is otherwise incapable for medical reasons.
> 
> Also, as I have related in my own case, many times LD is not a condition or intent but a result of other problems in the marriage. Fix those problems and the libido returns to normal.
> 
> That said, there is much a LD can do to alleviate the situation. If the LD partner is unconcerned then that is unhelpful.


I agree with that. Cheating because your spouse is not making any sexual effort is the same as cheating because they are cheating, it is still cheating.

The final paragraph is key though. We tend to sympathise with the crime we can imagine ourselves doing and not with the crimes we cannot imagine ourselves doing. I when one partner loses their interest in sex, they cannot imagine cheating and therefore consider cheating to be terrible while not seeing why their partner wants any sexual intimacy.

I cannot imagine a situation where if I lost my libido I would refuse to allow my wife to touch me in a sexual way, to refuse to touch her below the neck and think that was OK. There would have to be a major issue. 

There is great social stigma to cheating, which I think is a reaction against the idea that wives should always open their legs for their husband. The reaction against that means that someone can feel it is not unreasonable to expect sexual abstinance and them pushing for anything more is a bit rapey.


----------



## unbelievable

"Try explaining to your kids that mommy or daddy was horny and not getting any at home so they went out to accommodate their carnal desires."

I'd think that would be easier than explaining to your kids that they don't have a father around because you treated him like garbage for years until he finally had to leave. If sex is being withheld, generally, so is any other form of affection and kids have sense enough to see that. If mom is a self-centered, non-giving person, no one knows that better than her children. I'd rather my kids saw me a as the complete, functioning human being God designed me to be than as a hostage or a slave. If a healthy adult is being denied sex, their kids don't even know who they are because a person forced into celibacy isn't entirely a complete human being. 

At some point these kids are going to grow up and if they are normally functioning adults they will know that sex is a very normal and important part of any normal person's life. If they observed their parent serially withholding affection from their mate, by adulthood, those kids will know what an evil had been perpetrated.

Yeah, I'll happily tell my kids all day long that I did whatever I had to do to remain in their lives. I had to eventually leave my ex, not for withholding but for serial disrespect, dishonesty, and gross and chronic overspending. Without me saying a word ill about her, my kids know who I am and they know who she is. She treated them poorly, too.


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## jaquen

unbelievable said:


> "Try explaining to your kids that mommy or daddy was horny and not getting any at home so they went out to accommodate their carnal desires."
> 
> I'd think that would be easier than explaining to your kids that they don't have a father around because you treated him like garbage for years until he finally had to leave. If sex is being withheld, generally, so is any other form of affection and kids have sense enough to see that. If mom is a self-centered, non-giving person, no one knows that better than her children. I'd rather my kids saw me a as the complete, functioning human being God designed me to be than as a hostage or a slave. If a healthy adult is being denied sex, their kids don't even know who they are because a person forced into celibacy isn't entirely a complete human being.


:iagree:


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## love=pain

jaquen said:


> My parents did not discuss their marital issues and sexual life with their kids; it was off limits and none of our damn business.
> 
> But if a child is noisy enough that you feel the need to explain what mommy or daddy was doing with their private parts, then they should be tough enough to be taught a lesson that living in a sexless marriage is a cruel torture that they should never, ever settle for. It seems like a teachable moment to me.


I don't discuss my martial stuff with my kids either but when someone is caught cheating the fighting, arguments the "why is daddy sleeping on the couch" questions come up.
When the kids get older they are gonna know what the problems are they can hear and understand what is going on so there are gonna be questions, that and you might not say anything or inform the kids what is happening but a BS would then what do you say when they ask?
Don't be fooled kids (older 10 and up probably younger) know what goes on, they know many times when you are being intimate, they hear the arguments and they know who did who wrong.
People make a big deal of parents setting an example for their children so what example is it if the kids find out you cheated even if one spouse wasn't holding up their end by not providing sexual satisfaction for their spouse.


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## love=pain

unbelievable said:


> "Try explaining to your kids that mommy or daddy was horny and not getting any at home so they went out to accommodate their carnal desires."
> 
> *I'd think that would be easier than explaining to your kids that they don't have a father around* because you treated him like garbage for years until he finally had to leave. If sex is being withheld, generally, so is any other form of affection and kids have sense enough to see that. If mom is a self-centered, non-giving person, no one knows that better than her children. I'd rather my kids saw me a as the complete, functioning human being God designed me to be than as a hostage or a slave. If a healthy adult is being denied sex, their kids don't even know who they are because a person forced into celibacy isn't entirely a complete human being.
> 
> At some point these kids are going to grow up and if they are normally functioning adults they will know that sex is a very normal and important part of any normal person's life. If they observed their parent serially withholding affection from their mate, by adulthood, those kids will know what an evil had been perpetrated.
> 
> Yeah, I'll happily tell my kids all day long that I did whatever I had to do to remain in their lives. I had to eventually leave my ex, not for withholding but for serial disrespect, dishonesty, and gross and chronic overspending. Without me saying a word ill about her, my kids know who I am and they know who she is. She treated them poorly, too.


A divorce doesn't mean a parent disappears from their kids life, many of the divorced people I know spend equal time with their kids with joint custody. 

Sex is very important to me as I am HD as well and I don't think I would stand for my wife if she turned LD (unless due to illness etc). Like many here I would look for solutions, more romance etc whatever it took and if that didn't work then I would make an exit.
Chalk it up to different views on the situation, I would leave and find satisfaction else where before I cheated, others would find outside satisfaction in order to keep the family together, both choices have their good and bad


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## richardsharpe

Good afternoon murphy5
The LD spouse is unlikely to agree because they do not see sex as important and will not understand why you want it more than once every month or so. 

When my wife was LD she made it clear that she thought there was something wrong with me that I wanted sex more than every month or so. She also made it clear that sex outside of marriage would be completely unacceptable. On, and that she couldn't live without me. The problem was that I loved her and wasn't willing to hurt her. 




murphy5 said:


> YOU would have to live with it. And that would eat away at your soul.
> 
> Just ask the LD spouse for permission, then those problems go away.


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## sinnister

It's the marriage equivalent of trying to fix a bridge with a nuke.

But I now endorse it as a means of survival in a marriage. If you've reached the point where cheating is on the table due to constant years of sexual neglect, the marriage is finished anyways. No need to save anything and self respect is long gone. If you've ever been denied constantly in a marriage...you know your self respect is gone.


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## unbelievable

love=pain said:


> A divorce doesn't mean a parent disappears from their kids life, many of the divorced people I know spend equal time with their kids with joint custody.
> 
> Sex is very important to me as I am HD as well and I don't think I would stand for my wife if she turned LD (unless due to illness etc). Like many here I would look for solutions, more romance etc whatever it took and if that didn't work then I would make an exit.
> Chalk it up to different views on the situation, I would leave and find satisfaction else where before I cheated, others would find outside satisfaction in order to keep the family together, both choices have their good and bad


You can dress it up any way you'd like, but quantity of time has value and no part-time dad can be as effective as the could as a full-time dad. Every other weekend isn't the same as being in the home every day with your kid. This is a lie we tell ourselves to assuage the guilt of walking out on our kids and our kids are suffering financially, academically, and behaviorally for it.


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## unbelievable

If we are putting the welfare of kids first, then murdering a marriage by serially withholding sex or affection is about the cruelest thing one can do to their kids. You don't have to discuss your sexual business with even tiny kids for them to know whether their parents love each other or are just being roommates. 75% of welfare recipients are mothers with kids. In the race of life, destroying your marriage is like taking a ball bat to your kids' knees. They will survive but it does make their future life success less likely.


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## Browneyedgurl020610

I'm sorry but I simply don't have the time to read through all the comments, so I apologize if this has been said already.

Cheating is simply unacceptable. There are always reasons when 1 spouse can't/won't have sex in the marriage. The marriage is broken, an accident happened and he/she can't physically have sex, emotionally they are not up for it, ect ect...

If the person cheating is unhappy in their sexless marriage, then leave and divorce. You already broke the vow to stay committed to one another, divorce won't make it any worse. Staying in an unhappy marriage when you have to constantly betray the other to satisfy your own urges is disgusting. That person has no regards whatsoever to their partner's feelings and doesn't deserve to be with them anymore.


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## jaquen

It amazes me how many people still look at sexual abandonment as a lesser evil than sexual infidelity.


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## Mr The Other

jaquen said:


> It amazes me how many people still look at sexual abandonment as a lesser evil than sexual infidelity.


These things swing back and forth. There are plenty of places where a wife refusing her husbands advances would be seen as entirely unacceptable. The necessary kick-back from that means that a wife's (and husband's to a lesser extent) right to say no can extend to an indefinate period. We have not come from a similar historical background of women being forced to do without sex and so the issue is not regarded as seriously. In the future it will and progressive politics will loudly demand a husband's right to a blow job (or something).


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## Holland

jaquen said:


> It amazes me how many people still look at sexual abandonment as a lesser evil than sexual infidelity.


People aren't saying that. They are saying that one disgraceful act does not make the other valid or less disgraceful.


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## love=pain

Holland said:


> People aren't saying that. They are saying that one disgraceful act does not make the other valid or less disgraceful.


:iagree:

Sexual abandonment is high on the list of horrible things you can do to a SO in a relationship there is no question, but like every other act of treason you have a choice to leave.


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## jaquen

Holland said:


> People aren't saying that. They are saying that one disgraceful act does not make the other valid or less disgraceful.



There are plenty of posts all throughout this board, some in this thread, that definitely insinuate that. Not everybody here is saying "two wrongs don't make a right". Some are absolutely not leveling sexual abandonment on equal footing with infidelity.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening sinnister
Maybe, but maybe its more like fording the river in the mud after your offer to help fix the bridge has been turned down. 



sinnister said:


> It's the marriage equivalent of trying to fix a bridge with a nuke.
> (snip)


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## 2ntnuf

Not everyone who is struggling with LD is a cold fish outside of the bedroom. That's just not true. Generally, if they are a cold fish, they don't like you at all. Probably because you do things that aren't respectful, although certainly demanding. 

Guess what? You have to like someone before you can love them.


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## Deejo

2ntnuf said:


> Were you an unfaithful spouse? I thought you got out first.


Depends on who you ask. When my marriage was in it's death spiral I did in fact start talking to another woman ... about my marriage. Had no intention of cheating. And ... made it very clear to my wife at the time that I was talking with this person. I hid nothing. I didn't lie about the nature of the relationship. I'm comfortable with anyone who wants to claim I was having an emotional affair. At the time, I can also confidently say that I had no intention of being unfaithful ... but I was getting support FOR my marriage from someone else.

My ex on the other hand was doing the same. And lied to me about it. And she took it physical, which was a gut-punch given our circumstances. And lied about that too.

Make no mistake, take both of those circumstances out of the equation and our marriage was still over. 



2ntnuf said:


> Anyway, no one renders their partner celibate.


If your spouse refuses, guilts and shames you for wanting to be intimate, and you choose to remain faithful you are indeed in a forced state of celibacy.



2ntnuf said:


> If they cheat, they are not celibate. If they leave and find another, they are not celibate. No one is forced to withstand celibacy in a marriage. They choose to be celibate based on their own internal boundaries and character, sometimes even flaws.


I appreciate what you are shooting for here, but it falls flat to me. Humans are in no way, shape, or form, that binary. It just NEVER ever works the way you describe above. 
The heart tends to get in the way of anything resembling logic.



2ntnuf said:


> Infidelity is quite the opposite. The unfaithful spouse does not ask for permission. It's generally not known that they are seeking lover outside the marriage. There is no choice for the betrayed spouse. That's the difference. It's pretty much apples and orange


We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. You are now adding moral positions into the equation which you eliminated in your summary about remaining in a sexless marriage above. 



2ntnuf said:


> I'm sorry she would not have sex with you. It hurts more when she is the one you really want over all others.


No need to be sorry. That is all in the long view now. It's history. We've both had plenty of sex since ... with other people. And we get along well. But yes, your last point is very true.


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## 2ntnuf

Deejo said:


> Depends on who you ask. When my marriage was in it's death spiral I did in fact start talking to another woman ... about my marriage. Had no intention of cheating. And ... made it very clear to my wife at the time that I was talking with this person. I hid nothing. I didn't lie about the nature of the relationship. I'm comfortable with anyone who wants to claim I was having an emotional affair. At the time, I can also confidently say that I had no intention of being unfaithful ... but I was getting support FOR my marriage from someone else.
> 
> My ex on the other hand was doing the same. And lied to me about it. And she took it physical, which was a gut-punch given our circumstances. And lied about that too.
> 
> Make no mistake, take both of those circumstances out of the equation and our marriage was still over.
> 
> 
> If your spouse refuses, guilts and shames you for wanting to be intimate, and you choose to remain faithful you are indeed in a forced state of celibacy.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate what you are shooting for here, but it falls flat to me. Humans are in no way, shape, or form, that binary. It just NEVER ever works the way you describe above.
> The heart tends to get in the way of anything resembling logic.
> 
> 
> 
> We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. You are now adding moral positions into the equation which you eliminated in your summary about remaining in a sexless marriage above.
> 
> 
> 
> No need to be sorry. That is all in the long view now. It's history. We've both had plenty of sex since ... with other people. And we get along well. But yes, your last point is very true.




The main thing I can see is, you chose to stay. That means you realized what was happening and kept going with it. I just can't accept that a person is forced into anything, when they know. There are circumstances which that is true, like slavery, abuse by someone bigger, stronger, more intelligent, more capable, etc. 

I'm having a tough time thinking of you as someone who was afraid of leaving because of some abuse. I would tend to believe, since you believe in the senses keeping us in a bad spot, she could have made you think she was in love, but truly wasn't and therefore kept you hanging on to a shred of hope and love. I think that's emotional and actually verbal abuse, because you had to be gaslighted, sandbagged, and some other nasty things. I suppose a truer sense of verbal would be screaming and name calling? 

Anyway, we do disagree.


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## marriedandlonely

This is a topic that will attract a varity of answers,as I have said before that I am in the situation and there are a lot of different things we should look at here, the talk of cheating to a partner may have the desired result depending on the depth of the problem but to just straight out cheat has to create a bigger gap in the chances for intimacy ,as a woman needs trust to be wanted to be intimate
But on the other hand a man needs intimacy to feel wanted and develop the traits that a woman needs for intimacy ,so if the sexual side isn't there then depending on who is HD/LD then problems will develop on both sides
So if one sits down and looks at where the marriage thing sits,then success is a very fine line that DOES have rules which both parties have to work on 
I did hear someone say some years back , about our loins which goes like this for both parties ITS TOO HIGH TO EAT GRASS AND TOO LOW TO EAT OFF THE TABLE BUT IT HAS TO BE FED
On leaving I'd like to ask the tender gender a question that my wife does not seem to want to answer did they know that it is the sex side of things that engenders the feelings that they desire in a man ,the feelings of providing and protecting and wanting to cuddle etc,the romantic side of life and the no sex side just drives a wedge into the relationship each time it is refused
I think we have to realize that men and women think about a given situation from opposite sides


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## Adeline

I find it interesting that people use the term "sexless" to mean different things. Sexless to me=no sex. A lot of people on here say their marriage is sexless but what they really mean is that they don't have sex very often. And then there are those of us who literally mean we have had zero sex in x amount of years. I gotta say that my mindset would be COMPLETELY different if our sexless marriage meant having sex once a month or even 4 times a year. At least the connection would be happening, even if very rarely. But when that connection literally never happens it creates a different kind of beast.


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## AVR1962

Ruby, I am in your shoes and understand the feeling. I am 51, husband is 54, and we have been married 22 years....second marriage for both of us.

I was the pursuer in this marriage. I was the one that pursued my husband for conversation, time together, walks together, dinners out, sex. Husband has been happy to spend his time playing games on the computer, watching football, drinking with the guys, time with work but it's like I have been the housekeeper, nanny and care taker. 

As a young couple he told me that he didn't think he could ever love again. He said that he had never loved anyone as much as his first love from high school which he cheated on and she broke it off with him. He then rebounded into the arms of a 16 year old when he was 21, got her pg and married her out of obligation, the marriage lasted 4 years, he divorced her, said he was really burned. Silly me dodged the red flags that perhaps he was not ready to date or was not emotionally available. My parents saw it and my dad actually talked to me and told me that he felt the relationship was one sided and that if I continued with this it probably would not change and well it never did.

I think my husband was happy to have the company and happy to have me pursuing him for sex but I am not sure he has had the emotional connection. He was very into porn when we met but I did not realize how much of a problem this would be in our marriage. This man would not come to me for intimacy but would please himself with the magazines. I asked him to stop his subscript thinking this might solve the problem, nope! He'd lust after every girl that walked but was not loving toward me, didn't create intimacy.

In our first year of marriage he started seeking another woman, I was crushed beyond belief as i was really trying to make the relationship work but he showed no interest in me. I even thought maybe my sex drive was higher than his but then I see him pursuing another woman. he denied his feelings for this woman for a long long time but it was obvious.

At our 4 year mark the marriage was basically over and we each knew it. We had combined two family and we all had been together for 7 years at this point. We had full custody of 4 children and I didn't want to hurt these kids by putting them thru another divorce so we had a child ourselves hoping it would salvage the marriage.

While I was pg emotional affair #2 came along. Again I was crushed, we moved and I thought that would be the end of things.

Porn became bigger than even before, husband was downloading files on the computer. He was consumed by his hormones but yet not giving me the time of day and I was receptive.

We went to counseling for the porn addiction. We talked about the emotional affairs. counselor told me that some men connect to fantasy instead of real relationships and this starts in teen years when they feel they have no chance with girls and turn to other means to please their needs. he also told me that more than likely the emotional affairs would never had amounted to anything more than the thrill of what was in his mind. he did tell husband and I that not initiating sex with a spouse is not common for a man but that it does happen for various reasons, one of which is when the man was sexual abused as a child and he wanted to explore that with husband one-on-one. husband refused and stopped counseling. he told me that his sister had been sexually abused by an uncle and he had no memory of anything happening to him but he didn't want to go there.

Emotional affair #3, heavy drinking on his part, I was dealing with a very hostile teenage stepson and husband wanted no involvement. Our youngest was 5 at this time. Again he moved and in this case I tried to leave it behind me.

Things have never changed or got better. We have been to a TON of counseling. Bit by bit I lost my feelings for my husband, I felt like I was slowly dying inside the marriage. I dreamed of just having the attention of someone who cared, someone who was willing to talk and enjoy life with me as I feel I have been denied this in the 25 years I have been with this man.

What boggles my mind, besides that I am still here, is that in counseling while I am telling husband how all this made me feel.....nothing new as I told him my feelings outside of counseling too but was not heard.....he is crying and saying he never meant to hurt me. he said he had no intentions to leave me for these women. he tells the counselor he just felt it was male behavior to seek out porn and other women. I didn't know whether he was telling the truth or not. how can you see this as not affecting your marriage especially when your spouse is telling you how she felt?

My choice is to stay with the emotional distance, as it is now me who wants nothing to do with him and oddly enough after this last bit of counseling he has tried but I cannot stand for the thought of him touching me anymore. I can stay in this sexless emotionally vacant empty shell of a marriage or I can leave and tear up my family. My kids do not realize the dynamics going on here and they do not understand that parents have to have companionship and intimacy. They see us as the parents, they see us as guidance, security and that unity keeps them stable. So do I mess up their world and take a stab at not repeating this again? It's a hard decision.

I too have thought about an affair. I have even wished that husband would become involved with another women so I would have a reason to leave him.

I personally think if you are planning on staying in the marriage that an affair is not the answer even though I feel your pain. If you do not love your husband, be strong and find a way out.


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## Xtine000

*Hd/ld = bs*

Ok, this whole HD/LD thing is a bunch of BS. Most of the time the "LD" partner is the partner with LESS MONEY or some situation in which he/she NEEDS the partner - for SOMETHING ELSE - besides Love.

It could be a Green Card, it could be Financial Stability, or a great Apartment or House - you'll find these things at the bottom of the "HD, LD" conflict with a certainty.

Now I'm going to "Bring the Real" as I usually do. My family was one of those supposedly HD men with an LD woman. The real truth was that she needed citizenship and a Green card. So there you go. 11 years after the Marriage after dragging the Child, me, all through the fights about No Sex complete with screaming, cursing and hatred, the sex was "outsourced" as you say - in the form of the supposedly "LD" woman finding a new Boyfriend - her Boss. A Bastard was born into the family, which incredibly, stayed together since it was now based on finances and a house, and since the Boyfriend already had his own family even though the sex was being "outsourced". There is always a loser in EVERY cheating situation, and it's usually the 3rd party who is being used as a sexual outlet by the "HD" who invests emotion and gets nothing in return. In this case too the Children were the ones to bear the burden too. The Bastard child was attempted to be raised in the supposed "LD's" family. The LD mother FAVORED the Bastard over the real child of the marriage and rejected the previous child - made to leave home early, not allowed back under any circumstances even when sick, broke, etc while the Bastard was allowed to live at home, protected and now the family uprooted to be closer to her and her family. The Bastard has half brothers and sisters, family medical history that she doesn't know and most likely will never know, has a lot of emotional problems, was on medication and so forth. and a whole host of other problems. Meanwhile, the true child of the marriage is so hurt and distraught that she has been in therapy for years and has NEVER been married or had children and is conflicted about EVER doing these things.

So "outsourcing the sex"??? NO. That's all a bunch of BS and Lies. The supposed LD is playing a financial or other trick and should be dumped, and the HD is going along with it for their own reasons - they are either getting an attractive partner that they normally would not get otherwise, or something else is going on. You have got to be honest with yourselves people. STDs, illegitimate children, traumatized children, abuse of each other and especially the 3rd party involved and any children THEY may have as a result - attempts to use the child to "anchor" the already married "HD", child support payments, lawsuits….yeah. STDs are deadly, this is not a game. Maybe that's why there was a taboo on this in previous times???? You THINK they knew what they were talking about????


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## marriedandlonely

Adeline said:


> I find it interesting that people use the term "sexless" to mean different things. Sexless to me=no sex. A lot of people on here say their marriage is sexless but what they really mean is that they don't have sex very often. And then there are those of us who literally mean we have had zero sex in x amount of years. I gotta say that my mindset would be COMPLETELY different if our sexless marriage meant having sex once a month or even 4 times a year. At least the connection would be happening, even if very rarely. But when that connection literally never happens it creates a different kind of beast.


Sexless for the last 7 years of a 41 year marriage(NONE) I find it kind of amusing in a funny sort of way to read the thread of someone in my shoes of the opposite sex and think about the way our life twists and turns and can't but help think that even perfect sex partners will probably be mismatched in other ways and yes Adeline the NO sex thing does create a different kind of BEAST that gets slowly more remote


----------



## yearning here

How about if Both partners in a marriage(I am the wife)(husband is a LD) are not attracted to each other, but one(myself) is an HD , and want to have sex and an emotional affair with someone else outside of the marriage? I don't want a divorce for certain reasons, and I don't have the nerve to tell my husband I'm not attracted to him or else he'll get his feelings hurt. What do I do then??


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## 2ntnuf

yearning here said:


> How about if Both partners in a marriage(I am the wife)(husband is a LD) are not attracted to each other, but one(myself) is an HD , and want to have sex and an emotional affair with someone else outside of the marriage? I don't want a divorce for certain reasons, and I don't have the nerve to tell my husband I'm not attracted to him or else he'll get his feelings hurt. What do I do then??


There is no good enough reason in my mind to stay in a marriage that is not healthy. If there is no sexual satisfaction for a period of time and things have been worked on to try rectifying the situation, and both parties were very aware and open about the whole thing, I can't see any reason to stay married. If the aforementioned all happens, I don't see how the majority of couples would not find a way to agree to a reasonable divorce settlement. 

AVR and her husband have done work to make things better. She has taken the high road. Her husband has been less than respectable. He is working on it. It may be too late. She is staying for the children. Do you think they don't have a clue as to the loss of love? If they see it, but don't know what it is, are she and her husband presenting the best example of marriage to their children or would it be better to be honest with them, if they are old enough to understand a little, and just divorce? I think the latter.


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## naiveonedave

Clinically, sexless means less than 10x per year. Most people would agree that 2x per month is sexless or virtually sexless.


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## 2ntnuf

I have to say that when I read sexless, I think no sex, none, period. I know the definition as expressed by clinicians, but that doesn't account for, well, the sex, does it? It's likely a way to justify something. Either there is none or there is some, even if it is way way less than what is satisfying for any "normal" man or woman.


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## ScarletBegonias

If you're in a sexless/low sex marriage then it's time to decide what you can and can't live without then communicate that to your spouse.If communication,counseling,and honest effort doesn't help improve the situation to something more tolerable for you then it's time to move on. Cheating is never ok no matter what the reason. 

If I wanted to I could sit and try to justify my attention wh*re behavior in my marriage with all kinds of stuff...oh he didn't compliment me enough and it left me vulnerable to attention from other men,he wasn't passionate in a way I could understand so I needed other men to desire me,etc. The bottom line is you always have a choice to do the right thing regardless of the circumstances. Cheating physically,cheating emotionally,having conversations that you wouldn't want your spouse to read or hear,getting your ego boosted by women/men in your life or online,etc...it's ALL the WRONG choice. Walking away is hard and might ruin the life you thought you wanted but doing the wrong thing is even harder because it makes you give up the part of yourself that is good,moral,and unselfish. It turns you into someone ugly inside. You may pay a high price emotionally for sticking with a sexless/low sex situation but the price you pay for messing around in any way is higher.


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## WHYTHIS6869

rubymoon said:


> Is it really cheating when your spouse is jot interested in sex? We can call them LD, asexual, whatever... it may be from naturally low hormones, stress, whatever... The point is there is no sex in marriage because one of the spouses is not up for it all the time.
> 
> The more I read about it, the more I lean towards the thought that an affair in a sexless marriage is survival, not betrayal. Here is why:
> 
> Betrayal first happened when HD (as in higher desire, not necessarily that high) spouse starts feeling rejected, unwanted, and frankly, simply dumped.
> 
> Secondly, if Lower D spouse doesn't feel like sex and love are connected, that intimacy means a lot, that satisfaction of physical desires is important, then what is wrong with getting all of it elsewhere?! If all HD needs are just silly, meaningless nonsense, then why would it be bad to have them satisfied by someone else?
> 
> Yes, I know about vows, but some of them are already broken if one doesn't want to meet the other one at least half way. A marriage like that is already limping. And, no, the goal is not to get even or to break the second leg of a limping marriage. However, it looks like the only leg of such marriage is the HD spouse, who ends up carrying most of the weight created by the difference of two people. It would be only fair to unload some of that weight, especially since LD partner supposedly truly believes that those needs are not important enough to make an effort.


I'm in that type of marriage right now and it is frustrating !!! I'm a male in my early 40's and my wife doesn't have any health issues, no medications, nothing that would cuase the sexless marriage. We are "Empty nesters" so we can have each other with no interuptions. BUT she simply doesn't want to, I feel rejected, lonely, unloved and it really tried to make me feel insecure like something was wrong with me. I cook 98% of the time, I clean the house, do laundry, all of that is most of the time. My energy level is high, I work out so I'm not out of shape and I keepmy self groomed and looking good for her. Setting the mood doesn't work and I'm tring to hold on but I've gotten fed up. In public she fronts like we are doing good but I know better and I have communicated my feeling to her several time for years but nothing. Yes, I have thought about going outside my marriage but I'm still trying to give it a chance because if I do that then I might as well leave. We don't kiss often or hug...I hate that it seems like when you get married the sex STOPS !!! I HATE THIS !!!!! I thought it was just me going through this......


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## treyvion

2ntnuf said:


> I have to say that when I read sexless, I think no sex, none, period. I know the definition as expressed by clinicians, but that doesn't account for, well, the sex, does it? It's likely a way to justify something. Either there is none or there is some, even if it is way way less than what is satisfying for any "normal" man or woman.


After having been around this subject not by choice since 2007.

I've come to the conclusion that "sexless" is about 50% are sexless because the spouse gets it from elsewhere, the other 50% of sexless is because the spouse is either really gay, or has no libido at all. Perhaps not even LIKING sex to begin with.

Some folks do not like sex.


----------



## bbydede

Cheating is wrong. Never a good road to go down. Sex might seem all important right now when you're hot and heavy and haven't touched a body romantically in months- but the truth is it is a very fleeting physical thing. It doesn't last. Right after you roll over, you'll realize it was stupid. You can use toys, your hand, but most importantly TALK to your LD partner about how you feel. Be honest about how desperate you are. A partner will work to resolve it. If they refuse, well maybe you either need to try new things or think about divorce. But don't cheat! I am LD because of a very physical job and health issues but it is still possible to get the person aroused enough for sex. Women need foreplay! You guys seem to like it the first few months of dating when things are fresh and then you get lazy! My body could belong in a playboy magazine but my partner never takes the time to explore, lick, kiss, etc. I would want it every time after foreplay. Every human has nerve endings that will make a reaction. It might take a lot of cuddling and sweet words, but you have to work at it. Don't just give up and try for easy tail at the bar! Men naturally look around and want that hot new thing but in the end any willing partner feels about the same. Making love is better. I think this post is asking others' for permission for you to cheat and it's wrong. Go learn how to give oral to your lady at home and you'll never be wanting if you take the time to do it right! Don't half ass it! We can tell!!!!


----------



## Miss Taken

There is never a reason to cheat in my opinion but there can be extenuating circumstances that I believe are mitigating factors.

I have been fortunate not to be party to a sexless marriage or relationship. But have vicariously seen/experienced the pain of others from reading here from both men and women alike. I've seen people go so far as to inquire about medications they can take or praying to whatever God they believe in to please just take away their desire. I think those stories are heartbreaking. 

On the surface, infidelity is worse. However I say that as a generality and I think there are circumstances where sexlessness would be worse. I have heard - not on TAM of a husband that used sex to punish his wife. He would flirt with her, tease her sexually, dote affection on her until she tried to initiate and then reject her cruelly and brutally - usually insulting her weight and physical appearance as the reason. I really can't imagine that someone who had a ONS is worse than years of that kind of treatment. Both are wrong but I imagine the emotional damage inflicted in the above scenario to be much harder to overcome. 

On the other hand, sometimes their is validity as to the reasons one spouse is unable to perform. We have a member here whose husband cheated on her because she was unable to have penetrative sex. She offered many concessions to do everything BUT PIV because PIV was excruciatingly painful for her due to a medical condition. He rejected any and all compromises she tried to make, insisting it was PIV or nothing. In my mind, his decision to cheat was worse than her inability to perform - especially because she tried to tend to his sexual needs in other ways. 

In summary, I tend to think cheating is worse but I think sexual neglect or willful neglect of any spouse's emotional needs that you have the ability to fulfill is an affront on the marriage, and depending on circumstances can be worse than infidelity. In either case though, I say try to do everything to ensure a healthy marriage for both parties. When that is not possible because one spouse is unwilling to work on things then divorce is always an option. It's not an easy option but it is an option.


----------



## 2ntnuf

treyvion said:


> After having been around this subject not by choice since 2007.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that "sexless" is about 50% are sexless because the spouse gets it from elsewhere, the other 50% of sexless is because the spouse is either really gay, or has no libido at all. Perhaps not even LIKING sex to begin with.
> 
> Some folks do not like sex.


Yeah, there are so many reasons. Some of them can even be that the LD wants things the HD can't provide. Maybe it's a fetish for some, or some kind of thing that's taboo. The HD is not interested? I guess what I'm saying is that it could be any number of things that could cause someone to be LD, including their mental and physical health.


----------



## john117

naiveonedave said:


> Clinically, sexless means less than 10x per year. Most people would agree that 2x per month is sexless or virtually sexless.



Depends on what happens the other 28 days of the month... 

The cynic in me will notice the 10x a year is just below the universal LD constant of 1x a month  in other words it's not a coincidence...


----------



## AlmostYoung

Hi rubymoon,

I don’t think those who have not spent time on either end of a sexless marriage can fully understand what it is like. There can be many reasons for the non interest in sex by one partner, and it DOES make a difference as to why.

Sex, as important as it can be, is still only one part of a marriage. How big or small of a part we allow it to be is up to each of us, and no one else’s opinion on the subject really matters.

Is the marriage otherwise a good one? Is it worth throwing all of it away just because there is no sex? Maybe, maybe not… or maybe not quite yet. It is a very personal choice, that only YOU need to approve of.

Adding a third person to the mix, whether kept secret (cheating) or agreed upon, (not cheating) will almost always affect the original relationship adversely at some point. Not a good option in my opinion. Don’t do anything you will regret in the future… or the very next morning.

Besides, how satisfying would a fling be when you're only interested in intimacy with your spouse?

Things can and often do change. If you decide to faithfully wait out the no sex period because you feel it’s the right thing to do, then figure out a way to enjoy your life and marriage. I know firsthand that this is possible.


----------



## treyvion

bbydede said:


> Cheating is wrong. Never a good road to go down. Sex might seem all important right now when you're hot and heavy and haven't touched a body romantically in months- but the truth is it is a very fleeting physical thing. It doesn't last. Right after you roll over, you'll realize it was stupid. You can use toys, your hand, but most importantly TALK to your LD partner about how you feel. Be honest about how desperate you are. A partner will work to resolve it. If they refuse, well maybe you either need to try new things or think about divorce. But don't cheat! I am LD because of a very physical job and health issues but it is still possible to get the person aroused enough for sex. Women need foreplay! You guys seem to like it the first few months of dating when things are fresh and then you get lazy! My body could belong in a playboy magazine but my partner never takes the time to explore, lick, kiss, etc. I would want it every time after foreplay. Every human has nerve endings that will make a reaction. It might take a lot of cuddling and sweet words, but you have to work at it. Don't just give up and try for easy tail at the bar! Men naturally look around and want that hot new thing but in the end any willing partner feels about the same. Making love is better. I think this post is asking others' for permission for you to cheat and it's wrong. Go learn how to give oral to your lady at home and you'll never be wanting if you take the time to do it right! Don't half ass it! We can tell!!!!


Oh, for her jollies she could have you licking her clean after her guy pounds her mercifully. So eating good is no guarantee of anything. If she wants to power move on you like that, better behavior does not help it.


----------



## magnolia2014

EleGirl said:


> We create most of our own problems in life by lying and deceiving those who we supposedly love.


Very Powerful statement EleGirl and I totally agree! I think you're correct about the rest of your post too. If you open the door to "when it's ok to cheat" then what next? When is it ok to lie, steal, hide money etc. Just be honest with one another and figure it out together whether you decide to stay together or split.


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## Keedy

I've read many of the post on here and I had to chime in. I have been in a sexless marriage now for over three years. I have tried everything I have talked with him told him how I felt in regards to it...nothing. He went to the doctor, but nothing even with the pills.We have issues and I've tried my best to overcome them, but if you have an unwilling party, then there's not much one could do. I've always been a person who believes in marriage, but my needs are not being met. NOT emotionally or physically. I've been married now 13 years and I've made the decision to divorce. Now, we argue all the time, he's bitter and resentful and when I ask what's the problem he says he doesn't want to talk. ..which is his normal response. I can't live the rest of my life this way and neither should anyone else. Just because a couple has children together does not mean, that's a reason to stay together. Life is just to short to live wi th regrets or anger.


----------



## treyvion

Keedy said:


> I've read many of the post on here and I had to chime in. I have been a sexless marriage now for over three years now. I have tried everything I have talked with him told him how I felt in regards to it...nothing. he went to the doctor, but nothing even with the pills.We have issues and I've tried my best to overcome them, but if you have an unwilling party, then there's not much one could do. I've always been a person who believes in marriage, but my needs are not being met. NOT emotionally or physically. I've been married now 13 years and I've made the decision to divorce. Now, we argue all the time, he's bitter and resentful and when I ask what's the problem he says he doesn't want to talk. ..which is his normal response. I can't live the rest of my life this way and neither should anyone else. Just because a couple has children together does not mean, that's a reason to stay together. Life is just to short to live wi th regrets or anger.


Yeah it is too short. The current husband either has no libido, is gay or is cheating. Many men who are cheating don't want to cheat on their girlfriends.


----------



## unbelievable

If the withholding is deliberate and prolonged, there can be no cheating. One cannot steal abandoned property. One can't kill the dead. For an adultery to occur, there must be a live human being with a right of claim to the sexual activity of another. Surrender or abandon that right of claim, you aren't a victim of squat when the partner you deprive and defraud finally goes elsewhere. You should be astonished, humble, and grateful if you still receive any of the benefits of marriage after you have abandoned your position. 
The person who willfully vacates their marital vows regarding sex has no reason to expect faithfulness in return. They would not deserve loyalty or sexual faithfulness. They would have earned abandonment. Through their own choice, they would have positioned themselves as the tormentor of their spouse. If we are married and I punch you in the face every day for months or years on end, it'd be pretty presumptuous to expect you'll shower me with affection. If I deliberately starve you or thoughtlessly watch you shiver every night while I'm sitting on loads of food and piles of blankets, you'd consider me an abuser and I would be one. If you went next door to get a sandwich from my neighbor, it's not his fault or your's, it'd be mine. It was my duty to tend to your basic human needs.


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage

Everyone's focusing on sex. Let's throw in lack of picking up after oneself, lack of romance, lack of communication, lack of affection etc. 

So is it ok to have an affair bc my hubby isn't romantic, doesn't help me out around the house, minimal involvement with my kids etc. I'd be justified in stepping out? I think not! Sex is an important part of marriage. However, what happens if you get a divorced,and the relationship you jumped right into doesn't pan out and now you're single. Will you now DIE bc you can't have sex? 

At least have the common decency to tell your partner your tempted to cheat bc you're not getting g enough or end it. To calculate having an affair while you're married is the lowest of low, and I put those ppl in the same category as teachers who have sex/rape their students. No morals. Justify it all you want, wrong is wrong!!


----------



## Married but Happy

> However, what happens if you get a divorced,and the relationship you jumped right into doesn't pan out and now you're single.


You find another! After leaving my ex, I had more sex in the first 3 months than in the prior 3 years.

Divorce is often a good solution to a bad situation. Cheating isn't a good solution, but if it's a response to a spouse deliberately withholding sex, I don't see it as morally worse than that. If the withholder doesn't care for their spouse or has issues with them, they too can find a solution or leave, but their own selfish needs often prevents them from doing that. They stay and make their displeasure known through emotional abuse and sexual deprivation.


----------



## unbelievable

20yrsofmarriage said:


> Everyone's focusing on sex. Let's throw in lack of picking up after oneself, lack of romance, lack of communication, lack of affection etc.
> 
> So is it ok to have an affair bc my hubby isn't romantic, doesn't help me out around the house, minimal involvement with my kids etc. I'd be justified in stepping out? I think not! Sex is an important part of marriage. However, what happens if you get a divorced,and the relationship you jumped right into doesn't pan out and now you're single. Will you now DIE bc you can't have sex?
> 
> At least have the common decency to tell your partner your tempted to cheat bc you're not getting g enough or end it. To calculate having an affair while you're married is the lowest of low, and I put those ppl in the same category as teachers who have sex/rape their students. No morals. Justify it all you want, wrong is wrong!!


My marriage vows didn't mention neatness, romance, affection, weight gain, communication, or romance. They were pretty specific about sexual fidelity. The person who withholds breaks that compact first.


----------



## sinnister

unbelievable said:


> My marriage vows didn't mention neatness, romance, affection, weight gain, communication, or romance. They were pretty specific about sexual fidelity. The person who withholds breaks that compact first.


I have to agree here. To even equate an act as profound as sex to picking up after one self speaks to the problem at hand.

One partner is being deprived of a basic necessity of a relationship and the other puts this so far down on the priority list that it is equal to house chores.

It isn't. We enter into the bond of marriage with the expectation that sex is supposed to be on the table as an act both parties are enthusiastic about. 

I feel the same way about romance honestly. You can't alienate your wife emotionally and expect her to not seek that elsewhere. It's a partners job to keep the emotional and physical part of the marriage as a positive option. When one person unilaterally decides it's no longer "important" or that there are other aspects to a marriage so why give this "one thing" so much weight, it's the beginning of the end.

I think LD spouses understand full well the importance of physical initimacy in a relationship. They've just placed it so far down on their list of priorities that they don't care how it makes the other person feel when they deny. They just don't give a F.....until they cheat or leave.


----------



## turnera

rubymoon said:


> It would be only fair to unload some of that weight, especially since LD partner supposedly truly believes that those needs are not important enough to make an effort.


It would only be fair to show integrity by LEAVING that person and THEN finding a new partner.


----------



## turnera

unbelievable said:


> My marriage vows didn't mention neatness, romance, affection, weight gain, communication, or romance. They were pretty specific about sexual fidelity. The person who withholds breaks that compact first.


Semantics. If you take that attitude, you're still cheating. People will get hurt, and not just your spouse. Cheating is selfish and self-centered. There are other ways; you just choose not to do them because they are harder on YOU.


----------



## Acorn

In the end, it makes perfect sense that a LD spouse would find cheating more repulsive and a HD spouse would find the sexless neglect far more damaging than the cheating.

It's too bad people can't work through things together rather than make unilateral decisions which tear good things apart.


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage

unbelievable said:


> My marriage vows didn't mention neatness, romance, affection, weight gain, communication, or romance. They were pretty specific about sexual fidelity. The person who withholds breaks that compact first.


If a husband doesn't treat his wife with respect he's just as wrong as the wife withholding sex on a temporarily basis. Period, the end!

Let's not forget the vows also say to honor and respect!!


----------



## unbelievable

turnera said:


> Semantics. If you take that attitude, you're still cheating. People will get hurt, and not just your spouse. Cheating is selfish and self-centered. There are other ways; you just choose not to do them because they are harder on YOU.


It is not self centered and selfish to willingly withhold that which you vowed to provide? There aren't other ways to correct perceived deficiencies in your spouse other than to withhold basic physical needs from them? Would it be ok to starve one's wife in retaliation for her lack of communication? If a man is less than 100% thrilled with his wife's performance, is it permissible for him to quit financially supporting her? Would you think him justified in canceling her health benefits? Do kids still get fed even if they bring home bad report card? If it is sometimes ok to deprive one's spouse of sex, logically, it's sometimes ok to commit adultery. You can't have it both ways. Sexual faithfulness requires sexual performance. If you keep taking a paycheck but you refuse to work, you aren't a faithful employee. If a husband came home every day and called his wife, "fat", "ugly", and made it clear he did not care about her feelings, her needs, that she was not the slightest bit sexually attractive, you'd probably consider that husband some sort of abusive monster, completely undeserving of any display of loyalty from the abused wife. Withholding sex for months or years on end is exactly the same.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

unbelievable said:


> If the withholding is deliberate and prolonged, there can be no cheating. One cannot steal abandoned property. One can't kill the dead. For an adultery to occur, there must be a live human being with a right of claim to the sexual activity of another. Surrender or abandon that right of claim, you aren't a victim of squat when the partner you deprive and defraud finally goes elsewhere. You should be astonished, humble, and grateful if you still receive any of the benefits of marriage after you have abandoned your position.
> The person who willfully vacates their marital vows regarding sex has no reason to expect faithfulness in return. They would not deserve loyalty or sexual faithfulness. They would have earned abandonment. Through their own choice, they would have positioned themselves as the tormentor of their spouse. If we are married and I punch you in the face every day for months or years on end, it'd be pretty presumptuous to expect you'll shower me with affection. If I deliberately starve you or thoughtlessly watch you shiver every night while I'm sitting on loads of food and piles of blankets, you'd consider me an abuser and I would be one. If you went next door to get a sandwich from my neighbor, it's not his fault or your's, it'd be mine. It was my duty to tend to your basic human needs.


*cough* Bullsh!t*cough*

in·fi·del·i·ty
noun \ˌin-fə-ˈde-lə-tē, -(ˌ)fī-\
plural in·fi·del·i·ties
Definition of INFIDELITY
1
: lack of belief in a religion
2
a : unfaithfulness to a moral obligation : disloyalty
*b : marital unfaithfulness or an instance of it *

Not having sex with your partner isn't "unfaithful" because you both KNOW IT. There's no deceit in no sex. Now don't get me wrong. No sex is wrong. It's not meeting your partners basic needs. I would put it in the same category as not providing love, affection and communication. It's a cornerstone to marriage.

BUT it's not the same as cheating. And yes, i was in a sexless (on my half) marriage for 1.5 years. I went 1.5 years with my only sexual partners being righty and lefty. But I never cheated, because they aren't the same.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

unbelievable said:


> My marriage vows didn't mention neatness, romance, affection, weight gain, communication, or romance. They were pretty specific about sexual fidelity. The person who withholds breaks that compact first.


Where in your vows did it say "You will provide 4 orgasms per month to your spouse." It doesn't. It does address "forsaking all others" though.

IE marital vows don't address how much sex you'll have, any more or less than romance, neatness, affection (kind of ties into the sexual realm) etc. etc.


----------



## Married but Happy

Dad&Hubby said:


> Not having sex with your partner isn't "unfaithful" because you both KNOW IT. There's no deceit in no sex.


So just tell him/her you're going to seek sex elsewhere and then there's no deceit. How they choose to handle it is then up to them.

And while it may be obvious to both that there's no sex, there may be plenty of deceit about the why!


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Let me give you a situation.

Couple has a new baby. Baby barely sleeps, both people agree to breastfeeding only. Mother has the required 6 weeks post birth, and there's some medical issues due to tearing for another month or so and frankly physically BOTH parents are totally spent. The father wants sex, but doesn't get it for about 3 months. 

Is it okay to cheat? That's WILLFUL withholding on the wife's part....right?

Now you might say...well that's different and the 3 months isn't long enough...and there's light at the end of the tunnel, because the wife is going to want sex again....So if we're playing this game though....what's the cut off? What's the expiration date of sexual activity?


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage

Dad&Hubby said:


> *cough* Bullsh!t*cough*
> 
> in·fi·del·i·ty
> noun \ˌin-fə-ˈde-lə-tē, -(ˌ)fī-\
> plural in·fi·del·i·ties
> Definition of INFIDELITY
> 1
> : lack of belief in a religion
> 2
> a : unfaithfulness to a moral obligation : disloyalty
> *b : marital unfaithfulness or an instance of it *
> 
> Not having sex with your partner isn't "unfaithful" because you both KNOW IT. There's no deceit in no sex. Now don't get me wrong. No sex is wrong. It's not meeting your partners basic needs. I would put it in the same category as not providing love, affection and communication. It's a cornerstone to marriage.
> 
> BUT it's not the same as cheating. And yes, i was in a sexless (on my half) marriage for 1.5 years. I went 1.5 years with my only sexual partners being righty and lefty. But I never cheated, because they aren't the same.


That's bc you are a man of honor sir! Not everyone has it!


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Married but Happy said:


> So just tell him/her you're going to seek sex elsewhere and then there's no deceit. How they choose to handle it is then up to them.
> 
> And while it may be obvious to both that there's no sex, there may be plenty of deceit about the why!


If you have an open marriage, agreed to from BOTH parties...go for it.

I don't think it should be handled as a premade decision though.

The HD partner should say "We've tried everything to fix our sexual relationship (as long as you ACTUALLY have tried) and/or you refuse to address the lack of sex in our marriage. The only solution we have at this point is to allow me to find someone outside our marriage who can satisfy my needs or we divorce. I'm not going to change the dynamics of our marriage without approval from both parties, but I'm also not going to spend the rest of my life without sex."

Give the sexless person the option. Marriage isn't Nike...you don't "Just do it". EDIT (after reading this, I realized how easy it is to misinterpret that to a sexual statement LOL...I'm talking about making the decision to have an open marriage....If they did "just do it" this wouldn't be an issue would it? LOL)


----------



## Trickster

Adeline said:


> I find it interesting that people use the term "sexless" to mean different things. Sexless to me=no sex. A lot of people on here say their marriage is sexless but what they really mean is that they don't have sex very often. And then there are those of us who literally mean we have had zero sex in x amount of years. I gotta say that my mindset would be COMPLETELY different if our sexless marriage meant having sex once a month or even 4 times a year. At least the connection would be happening, even if very rarely. But when that connection literally never happens it creates a different kind of beast.


Whether sex is once a week, once a month, or 4X a year, if there is no affection or intimacy and sex becomes just a physical release, it is sexless...to me...if sex leaves us feeling empty, it is sexless...

If there is zero "connection" in the marriage, to me, that means sexless. 

When I talked D with my wife because lack of sex, we went from sex 3X a month to 3X a week. There was no "connection" though. "What more do you want?" she asked me.

My wife thinks I am part woman because I want more intimacy, affection and that stupid emotional connection...


----------



## Married but Happy

Dad&Hubby said:


> Let me give you a situation.


Straw man argument, invalid.

There are clearly extenuating, valid circumstances that will pass. The wife may even want sex in this situation, but be unable. Once she is able, if she then withholds without excellent mutually agreeable reasons, the problems begin.

I'm still not advocating cheating. I still think there should be discussion and negotiation, and then they can choose to continue the marriage or not, and under what conditions. Cheating and withholding are both morally wrong given the expectations of marriage. Like I said earlier - if you can't agree, announce your intentions, and let the chips fall where they may.


----------



## turnera

unbelievable said:


> It is not self centered and selfish to willingly withhold that which you vowed to provide?
> 
> Withholding sex for months or years on end is exactly the same.


No, it's not. It is not going OUTSIDE THE MARRIAGE. 

Whatever causes the HD/LD issue, that HD person always has the ability to walk away from the marriage BEFORE causing the lifelong path of destruction that cheating creates.


----------



## turnera

Married but Happy said:


> So just tell him/her you're going to seek sex elsewhere and then there's no deceit. How they choose to handle it is then up to them.


I have no problem with this. IF both parties are acceptable to the HD getting relief elsewhere and understands the risk of him/her becoming attached to the extramarital partner, then go for it. 

It's the LYING that makes cheating, cheating.


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage

Married but Happy said:


> Straw man argument, invalid.
> 
> There are clearly extenuating, valid circumstances that will pass. The wife may even want sex in this situation, but be unable. Once she is able, if she then withholds without excellent mutually agreeable reasons, the problems begin.
> 
> I'm still not advocating cheating. I still think there should be discussion and negotiation, and then they can choose to continue the marriage or not, and under what conditions. Cheating and withholding are both morally wrong given the expectations of marriage. Like I said earlier - if you can't agree, announce your intentions, and let the chips fall where they may.


No more of a straw man than "unbelieVable" making "what if you starve your wife scenario" . If a man doesn't work he doesn't eat either. Oh, and women work nowadays too now.Thank GOd my husband didn't die from lack of sex when he was deployed to Afghanistan. Being that it's a need and all..like air.


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage

Married but Happy said:


> Straw man argument, invalid.
> 
> There are clearly extenuating, valid circumstances that will pass. The wife may even want sex in this situation, but be unable. Once she is able, if she then withholds without excellent mutually agreeable reasons, the problems begin.
> 
> I'm still not advocating cheating. I still think there should be discussion and negotiation, and then they can choose to continue the marriage or not, and under what conditions. Cheating and withholding are both morally wrong given the expectations of marriage. Like I said earlier - if you can't agree, announce your intentions, and let the chips fall where they may.


No more of a straw man than "unbelieVable" making "what if you starve your wife scenario" . If a man doesn't work he doesn't eat either. Oh, and women work nowadays too.Thank GOd my husband didn't die from lack of sex when he was deployed to Afghanistan. Being that it's a need and all..like air.


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage

turnera said:


> No, it's not. It is not going OUTSIDE THE MARRIAGE.
> 
> Whatever causes the HD/LD issue, that HD person always has the ability to walk away from the marriage BEFORE causing the lifelong path of destruction that cheating creates.


I once heard from a cheater that the first time or two that you cheat, the guilt consumes you. After x amount of times, the guilt leaves and the justifications enter.


----------



## Married but Happy

turnera said:


> I have no problem with this. IF both parties are acceptable to the HD getting relief elsewhere and understands the risk of him/her becoming attached to the extramarital partner, then go for it.
> 
> It's the LYING that makes cheating, cheating.


IMO, it doesn't even have to be acceptable to both parties. Obviously having sex withheld isn't acceptable to the HD spouse, but he knows that he/she isn't going to get any. The HD spouse getting sex elsewhere doesn't have to be acceptable, just known to the LD partner. As I said, they can then decide what they want to do about it without any deceit.

I'll bet that will either trigger a solution or a divorce, before the HD spouse even has a chance to look elsewhere. Win-win.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Married but Happy said:


> Straw man argument, invalid.
> 
> There are clearly extenuating, valid circumstances that will pass. The wife may even want sex in this situation, but be unable. Once she is able, if she then withholds without excellent mutually agreeable reasons, the problems begin.
> 
> I'm still not advocating cheating. I still think there should be discussion and negotiation, and then they can choose to continue the marriage or not, and under what conditions. Cheating and withholding are both morally wrong given the expectations of marriage. Like I said earlier - if you can't agree, announce your intentions, and let the chips fall where they may.


This whole thread is a straw man argument because it's all hypothetical. We're not talking about a specific couple and how they have specifically dealt with this issue.

So my scenario is as valid as any other...it just punches a hole in the argument because it shows a situation of forced celibacy that most reasonable couples would accept.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

20yrsofmarriage said:


> No more of a straw man than "unbelieVable" making "what if you starve your wife scenario" . If a man doesn't work he doesn't eat either. Oh, and women work nowadays too.Thank GOd my husband didn't die from lack of sex when he was deployed to Afghanistan. Being that it's a need and all..like air.


Another great example of forced celibacy that couples would normally support.

I applaud you and your husband and thank your husband for his service.


----------



## unbelievable

Dad&Hubby said:


> *cough* Bullsh!t*cough*
> 
> in·fi·del·i·ty
> noun \ˌin-fə-ˈde-lə-tē, -(ˌ)fī-\
> plural in·fi·del·i·ties
> Definition of INFIDELITY
> 1
> : lack of belief in a religion
> 2
> a : unfaithfulness to a moral obligation : disloyalty
> *b : marital unfaithfulness or an instance of it *
> 
> Not having sex with your partner isn't "unfaithful" because you both KNOW IT. There's no deceit in no sex. Now don't get me wrong. No sex is wrong. It's not meeting your partners basic needs. I would put it in the same category as not providing love, affection and communication. It's a cornerstone to marriage.
> 
> BUT it's not the same as cheating. And yes, i was in a sexless (on my half) marriage for 1.5 years. I went 1.5 years with my only sexual partners being righty and lefty. But I never cheated, because they aren't the same.


Look at definition a: Unfaithfulness to a moral obligation. Once you stand beside someone and let them swear to Almighty God to not seek sex from anyone else for the rest of their days, it is understood by all concerns that you are agreeing to handle their reasonable sexual business. That is a moral obligation. There is even instruction in the Bible forbidding couples from denying each other sex except out of mutual agreement. The Bible calls doing so "defauding one another". Fraud is the combination of a lie and a theft. 
Once again, would you consider an employee who showed up on payday but refused to do the work they were hired to do and they work they promised to do, "faithful"? They are even more disloyal than the employee who sneaks around off duty and works for your competitor. One can be the "victim" of adultery and not even be aware of the adultery. You could be happier than a hog in slop while your wife is running around. All it takes is for you to be unaware. Nobody is unaware that they are being denied sex and affection.


----------



## unbelievable

Dad&Hubby said:


> This whole thread is a straw man argument because it's all hypothetical. We're not talking about a specific couple and how they have specifically dealt with this issue.
> 
> So my scenario is as valid as any other...it just punches a hole in the argument because it shows a situation of forced celibacy that most reasonable couples would accept.


Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:

The original hierarchy of needs five-stage model includes:

1. Biological and Physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep.

2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, stability, freedom from fear.

3. Love and belongingness needs - friendship, intimacy, affection and love, - from work group, family, friends, romantic relationships.

4. Esteem needs - achievement, mastery, independence, status, dominance, prestige, self-respect, respect from others.

5. Self-Actualization needs - realizing personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences.


The very base of that pyramid, the most basic of all needs are physical needs which includes food, water, air, shelter, and SEX. Not a straw man argument at all.


----------



## marriedandlonely

20yrsofmarriage said:


> If a husband doesn't treat his wife with respect he's just as wrong as the wife withholding sex on a temporarily basis. Period, the end!
> 
> Let's not forget the vows also say to honor and respect!!


Am just wondering how long is a temporary basis ,and do you consider witholding as an act that generates respect?


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## marriedandlonely

Dad&Hubby said:


> Let me give you a situation.
> 
> Couple has a new baby. Baby barely sleeps, both people agree to breastfeeding only. Mother has the required 6 weeks post birth, and there's some medical issues due to tearing for another month or so and frankly physically BOTH parents are totally spent. The father wants sex, but doesn't get it for about 3 months.
> 
> Is it okay to cheat? That's WILLFUL withholding on the wife's part....right?
> 
> Now you might say...well that's different and the 3 months isn't long enough...and there's light at the end of the tunnel, because the wife is going to want sex again....So if we're playing this game though....what's the cut off? What's the expiration date of sexual activity?


When your wife says "IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN" to her best friend when she suggested that it was all that was needed,in front of HD:scratchhead:


----------



## hospitality

I think the OP was talking to those who are in good marriages sex aside so I will address that group only.

Before stepping outside your marriage with or without permission consider this. Can you handle having a woman ten years younger than your wife, with a perfect body constantly sext you up. Can you handle seeing naked selphies all day. Can you handle reading that she pleasured herself three times the time before thinking of you? Can you handle going down on her and she orgasms three times in three minutes. Can you handle her being so wet you can hardly tell if you are inside her. Can you handle her giving you oral sex at lunch in the parking garage? Can you handle.......?

Then you return to your wife that you love so much, romance her and finally after two weeks of trying for sex she gives in. You try to start foreplay but she isn't interested so you climb on top of her since she gave in. Her vagina is bone dry so you know she isn't excited. After three minutes she tells you to stop, tells you to finish yourself off and then rolls over to sleep.

I've never met anyone who could handle both of those situations together. The amazing mind blowing sex will destroy all the good in the existing relationship. If you think you can play with fire go ahead and give sex outside the marriage a try! But personally I would work on the relationship or leave.


----------



## hospitality

There is a synonym for LD! It's called being sexually lazy. I hate spending three hours every Saturday doing yard work but I do it because I want to maintain my yard. I go to the gym 1 1/2 per day and hate every minute of it but I do it. Most men orgasm in less than five minutes. Four times per week times five minutes equals a whopping 20 minutes per week! Is there a man on this planet who would not feel desired if their wife woke them up Monday morning with a hand job?

Part of me thinks stepping out is not cheating if your spouse can't devote 20 minutes per week because they deserve it. The other part says the LD doesn't deserve to be cheated on because they are clueless to what is going on.

The LD spouse becomes sexually lazy because they don't have that burning desire to have sex. The LD spouse also doesn't understand how vulnerable their relationship is when they send their HD spouse out into the real world. The LD spouse thinks when they reject their spouse sexually that desire goes away.

Sexual desire for the HD spouse builds and builds. The desire builds into resentment, the resentment starts to make the HD spouse withdraw mentally from the relationship and eventually the HD seeks out a new sexual partner. All this happens while the LD spouse thinks everything is great.

Is it cheating? The HD spouse would always pleasure their LD spouse even if they weren't into it because they know how vulnerable a person is to sexual advances when they walk around horny all day. The LD spouse has no desire to please unless they want to be pleased at that moment which seems selfish in itself. 

So why can't the HD partner seek out sex outside the marriage if the LD spouse gets sex whenever they want it? I say it is cheating because I know plenty of LD men and women who are proactive in seeking sex with their HD partner. One woman I know says, "he can take it anytime he wants but I'll only give it once a week" and a male HD friend says, "she wants it everyday so I set alarms on my calendar to remind me to wake her up with oral sex, use toys on Thursday etc etc and she has no idea I do this but otherwise I just get lazy. After all, there are worse things then going down on a woman!" 

Both of the HD spouses I mentioned above are VERY sexually satisfied. The "take it" LD spouse almost always gets into sex once sex has started. The "alarm" HD spouse is constantly talking about how her husband constantly switches things up.

I really don't feel like sex outside the marriage is cheating because the LD spouse gets sex whenever they want it and most do nothing to satisfy the HD spouse.


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## MarieIsabelle

There's a bigger picture here that goes beyond 'marriage vows' and 'sex'. A committed relationship is based on the expectation that each partner will continue to honor the commitments that were put in place back when the relationship came to be. A person's decision to commit is based on what the relationship is offering at the time they sign on, and it's with the expectation that the relationship will remain unchanged. Obviously, over the years, relationships change, people grow and things evolve. However, no one goes into a relationship with the expectation that one day the sex will disappear, or that the love will somehow vanish. Anytime you remove a fundamental element that the relationship once relied on in order to thrive, it will inevitably affect the entire union. Sex is no different than the element of love, yet people will often be much more accepting of a sexless marriage, before they would ever be accepting of a loveless marriage. 

The question of whether or not it's okay to seek sexual fulfillment outside of a sexless marriage, is no different than seeking emotional fulfillment outside of a loveless marriage. Basically, is it okay to seek out fulfillment if your partner is no longer providing for your needs? 

Is it right that one or both partner's allow their sexual offerings to fade? No. However, two wrongs don't make a right and stepping out of a relationship in any capacity is never justified. It speaks to something bigger and it's not just about replacing the sex that your partner has deprived from you. The idea of stepping outside of the relationship involves breaking the fundamental elements of respect and honor. Being dishonest and disrespecting the union is what makes it wrong. It's not the act of cheating itself, because infidelity is merely a symptom to the ailment itself. When the fundamental elements of respect, honesty and honoring the union, are broken, it's no longer classified as a committed relationship. Think about it, one cannot claim that they own a car when all they have are 3 tires and a steering wheel sitting in their garage.

Whether a partner is being sexually lazy, not doing their part, slacking, blah, blah, blah... Lying is no remedy and it corrodes a relationship.

So, the bigger question is: Is it okay to disrespect a spouse, dishonor the union and be dishonest. The answer is no. Even when we feel as though a partner is dishonoring the union because they are no longer providing us with sex, two wrongs don't make it right...and what you have a something that cannot be called a valid relationship. If a partner is no longer doing their part in any capacity, either it's fixable and they find the motivation to work with you, or it's not salvageable and you exit the relationship. If the justification is that one cannot leave because of children, finances etc..., then have the guts to come clean and redefine the rules for commitment. Give a spouse the chance to decide for themselves that they are accepting of this new dynamic or not. Lying is never cool and a cop out.... We should only serve up the very things we are expecting of in return.

A true relationship is one where happiness resides under one roof, and with both feet firmly planted within the union. True happiness is not about making the best out of a crappy circumstance, trying to hold on to the little security that the relationship still provides, and all the while attempting to apple pick on the sidelines. No one really wants that for themselves or their lives...so why try and justify something that is truly not in one's heart of hearts?


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## Anon1111

Marriage is a contract. The basic premise of any contract is when one party commits a material breach, the other party is relieved of his duties.


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## Dad&Hubby

I guess I'm going to be the voice of dissent.

No where in any marriage vows that I've taken or been witness to specifically stated that the spouses MUST, regardless of everything else, provide sex to the other.

I'm sorry but if my daughter married a man who abused her (in any way) treated her like dirt, demeaned her etc. I wouldn't expect her to then spread her legs for him. 

What this thought process is saying is ANYTHING is justifiable to allow cheating.

I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part. 

So if you stop cherishing me, stop making me feel loved, stop "holding me".....all of those are grounds for cheating....

PS I don't see "sex" specifically mentioned unless that's the "have" part.

My point being...no sex..no communication...abuse...etc. etc...are all signs of a dysfunctional marriage that should be fixed or ended.

Cheating is NEVER okay. Divorce your sex-less spouse..then go get sex. Or reinvent your marriage to be an open marriage...as long as both parties agree.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all

It always boils down to the HD partner having a choice:

1). Leave: This sounds easy, but often the HD partner LOVES the LD parther and (if there are any) children. Often the LD partner will be absolutely devastated by the HD partner leaving.

2). Cheat: If it is not found out this doesn't harm the LD partner, but in general it will be found out. It is really just a delaying action for #1 where in the end the LD partner will feel "justified". The result though will be the same. LD partner miserable. HD partner ends up with someone else. Still it may give the LD partner a few extra years of happiness. 

3). Live like a monk / nun. This keeps the LD partner happy - it is the only option that does. Is the HD partner responsible for the happiness of the LD partner? In many cases they feel they are, so they live a sexless life for the sake of the person that the love. The LD partner never realizes what sacrifice is being made for them.


In almost all cases the LD partner is not going to agree to an open relationship and will be badly hurt by the suggestion. They do not understand the value of sex, and honestly believe that it is the HD partner who has the problem. 

THIS is what should be taught in sex-ed in school. This is something that makes countless millions of people miserable. If people understood this before getting into committed relationships, and if they knew the importance of finding sexually compatible partners the world would be a much happier place.


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## Mr The Other

Dad&Hubby said:


> I guess I'm going to be the voice of dissent.
> 
> No where in any marriage vows that I've taken or been witness to specifically stated that the spouses MUST, regardless of everything else, provide sex to the other.
> 
> I'm sorry but if my daughter married a man who abused her (in any way) treated her like dirt, demeaned her etc. I wouldn't expect her to then spread her legs for him.
> 
> What this thought process is saying is ANYTHING is justifiable to allow cheating.
> 
> I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part.
> 
> So if you stop cherishing me, stop making me feel loved, stop "holding me".....all of those are grounds for cheating....
> 
> PS I don't see "sex" specifically mentioned unless that's the "have" part.
> 
> My point being...no sex..no communication...abuse...etc. etc...are all signs of a dysfunctional marriage that should be fixed or ended.
> 
> Cheating is NEVER okay. Divorce your sex-less spouse..then go get sex. Or reinvent your marriage to be an open marriage...as long as both parties agree.


I pretty much agree with you. However, I would say that "to have and to hold" does mean sex. If we go make to the New Testament, St Paul holds celibacy as the ideal, but if you much have kids and sex then find a committed relationship in which both will provide for the other.

Certainly, if commitment is lacking and the covenant (rather than contract) breaks down on one side it does not give permission to cheat. I am rarely in the mood for having a run round the park once a week, but if that was all it took, I would probably do it. if all it took for my wife to be happy was that I pleasured the dog, frankly I would probably do it. That is because you have a duty to your spouse.

Cheating is wrong. A man being too lazy to get a job is wrong. A man saying he will have kids and then refusing because he was not really into having kids ever is wrong. Equally, refusing intimate contact just because you do not want to make an effort is wrong.

You should divorce rather than cheat. Equally, if you do not fancy having sexual contact, you should consider leaving. If he has put on 200lb, it is understandable, but then so would cheating - it would still be wrong.


----------



## unbelievable

hospitality said:


> I think the OP was talking to those who are in good marriages sex aside so I will address that group only.
> 
> Before stepping outside your marriage with or without permission consider this. Can you handle having a woman ten years younger than your wife, with a perfect body constantly sext you up. Can you handle seeing naked selphies all day. Can you handle reading that she pleasured herself three times the time before thinking of you? Can you handle going down on her and she orgasms three times in three minutes. Can you handle her being so wet you can hardly tell if you are inside her. Can you handle her giving you oral sex at lunch in the parking garage? Can you handle.......?
> 
> Then you return to your wife that you love so much, romance her and finally after two weeks of trying for sex she gives in. You try to start foreplay but she isn't interested so you climb on top of her since she gave in. Her vagina is bone dry so you know she isn't excited. After three minutes she tells you to stop, tells you to finish yourself off and then rolls over to sleep.
> 
> I've never met anyone who could handle both of those situations together. The amazing mind blowing sex will destroy all the good in the existing relationship. If you think you can play with fire go ahead and give sex outside the marriage a try! But personally I would work on the relationship or leave.


I wouldn't recommend anyone going outside the marriage due to a two-week dry spell. Cut off for a few months or years without seriously valid medical reasons? The offending spouse gets what he/she gets and they have zero claim to victim status in any way, shape, or form. Whether the adultery is discovered or not would make no difference. The marriage ended the day the Zombie decided to quit even making the effort to function as a spouse. The only thing remaining would be an inconvenient legal entanglement and some jointly held property. If an otherwise healthy husband or wife refuses sex for years, they'd best hope I'm not sitting on a jury in judgment of anything their spouse did to escape or survive their abuse.


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## john117

Ok, not two weeks, but two years?


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## MelodyAnn

unbelievable said:


> Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs:
> 
> The original hierarchy of needs five-stage model includes:
> 
> 1. Biological and Physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep.
> 
> 2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, stability, freedom from fear.
> 
> 3. Love and belongingness needs - friendship, intimacy, affection and love, - from work group, family, friends, romantic relationships.
> 
> 4. Esteem needs - achievement, mastery, independence, status, dominance, prestige, self-respect, respect from others.
> 
> 5. Self-Actualization needs - realizing personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences.
> 
> 
> The very base of that pyramid, the most basic of all needs are physical needs which includes food, water, air, shelter, and SEX. Not a straw man argument at all.


You're simply quoting Maslow's hierarchy of needs; it's a _theoretical _model of what our needs as humans are. It is not based on some sort of hard scientific research that puts down in stone what our needs are, in order of priority. Someone could edit this list and place certain items in a slightly different order of priority based on their hypotheses of what matters most to humans, or is needed most. The above hierarchy is primarily based on just _one _intelligent person's reflections and propositions on human nature. I could see sex as easily placed on #3 - Love and Belongingness needs, where it would fall within the category of intimacy needs. I don't see sex as a basic survival need to be lumped together with the other necessities in #1 like food, air and water. If that were the case, all nuns, priests, monks of days old, and deployed combat personnel would shrivel up and die. But, they don't. We couldn't survive without things like food, air, sleep, etc. We can survive, and some thrive without sex. That aside, everyone's needs for sex/intimacy are not equal, and that's the problem with this couple. Her needs for intimacy of a sexual nature are not being met. But, she would be clearly cheating if she were to deceive her husband. The word _cheating_ strongly implies dishonesty and deception; that's why we _cheat _ on our taxes or _cheat _on a test. It's really the deception, IMHO, that makes something cheating, where we defraud others of the truth. If she were in an open marriage where her husband agreed to her having other partner(s), it would be a very different story, and wouldn't be cheating. If she can't get her needs met within the marriage, she needs to face the hard reality of leaving her husband if he would not be willing to have an open marriage.


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## WorkingOnMe

Melody you don't understand the hierarchy. Sex appears in both one and 3. 3 for the reasons you site. But it also belongs in #1. Nuns aside, our species absolutely cannot survive without it. As a species it is a basic need.


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## john117

Yet very few men or women would be happy with the animalistic interpretation of sex. It's a lot more than #1 requires yet people do fine without it.


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## WorkingOnMe

#1 is not about happiness. It's about the human race surviving. Happiness comes as you advance up the hierarchy. That's why it's there in #3.


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## Dad&Hubby

I guess my interpretations to things are too simplistic.

1. Cheating is wrong....there's no other way to view it in my book. It's NEVER an option for me.

There are problems in marriages. They happen. A wife might feel taken for granted and in turn not be interested in sex. A wife might be stuck with ALL of the child care responsibilities and in turn doesn't want another child so no interest in sex. A wife may be one of those women who are never satisfied with status quo. She may need the "chase" to get aroused, so if the husband isn't "gaming" her, she's not interested. A wife may just not like sex because it's "icky" "dirty" "boring" insert any number of reasons LD women turn down their HD husbands.

A husband may have medical issues he's too afraid to deal with (ED etc.). A husband may also be one of those people who love the chase but isn't satisfied once he "catches it". He may be one of those guys who finds sex "icky" (yes these men do exist) or is too lazy or interested in video games or insert any number of reasons a husband turns down his HD wife.

None of those situations are good. And they all have problems involved in them.

My thought is FIX THE PROBLEM. Don't look for a short cut. Cheating is a destructive short cut to a solution. It doesn't fix the marriage. There's no such thing as a "healthy" sexless marriage, unless you have two very LD individuals (for whatever reason). So either end the marriage because the two parties aren't sexually compatible, which sometimes is the reality....or fix the problem(s) in the marriage.


----------



## MelodyAnn

WorkingOnMe said:


> Melody you don't understand the hierarchy. Sex appears in both one and 3. 3 for the reasons you site. But it also belongs in #1. Nuns aside, our species absolutely cannot survive without it. As a species it is a basic need.


I think I understand the hierarchy pretty well, and not the first time I've seen it. Have seen it and studied it numerous times in my education. Sex can be viewed as a need, but it is really a matter of opinion on whether it is a basic _survival_ need. The species as a whole obviously needs it for our continued existence and collective survival. But, you really can't prove that the individual needs it to survive. There are many happy people who live celibate lives, and live to a ripe old age. For the majority of us, however it is definitely linked to our emotional well-being and serves our psychological needs for connectedness and belonging. I am completely a proponent of its necessary place in a marriage. I think I may just disagree with it being placed at #1 in the hierarchy along with the other physical survival needs. We probably agree for the most part that it is an important need, but just prioritize it differently.


----------



## MelodyAnn

Dad&Hubby said:


> I guess my interpretations to things are too simplistic.
> 
> 1. Cheating is wrong....there's no other way to view it in my book. It's NEVER an option for me.
> 
> There are problems in marriages. They happen. A wife might feel taken for granted and in turn not be interested in sex. A wife might be stuck with ALL of the child care responsibilities and in turn doesn't want another child so no interest in sex. A wife may be one of those women who are never satisfied with status quo. She may need the "chase" to get aroused, so if the husband isn't "gaming" her, she's not interested. A wife may just not like sex because it's "icky" "dirty" "boring" insert any number of reasons LD women turn down their HD husbands.
> 
> A husband may have medical issues he's too afraid to deal with (ED etc.). A husband may also be one of those people who love the chase but isn't satisfied once he "catches it". He may be one of those guys who finds sex "icky" (yes these men do exist) or is too lazy or interested in video games or insert any number of reasons a husband turns down his HD wife.
> 
> None of those situations are good. And they all have problems involved in them.
> 
> My thought is FIX THE PROBLEM. Don't look for a short cut. Cheating is a destructive short cut to a solution. It doesn't fix the marriage. There's no such thing as a "healthy" sexless marriage, unless you have two very LD individuals (for whatever reason). So either end the marriage because the two parties aren't sexually compatible, which sometimes is the reality....or fix the problem(s) in the marriage.


Perfect answer!


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## richardsharpe

Good evening Dad&Hubby
I agree that trying to fix the problem is good. The problem is that often the LD partner simply doesn't believe that there is anything to fix. 
I tried for 25 years. Really. I did everything I could think of. 

So I was left with (as I often post)

1) Leave the woman I love and am sworn to stay with my entire life. (hurting her badly in the process - she loves me - she just didn't want sex with me). 

2). Cheat and not let her find out. I didn't but I can not fault anyone in this situation who did. 

3). Live my life as a monk and deeply resent her for it.

I did #3 for 25 years. I don't think I'd recommend that solution to anyone. 




Dad&Hubby said:


> I guess my interpretations to things are too simplistic.
> 
> 1. Cheating is wrong....there's no other way to view it in my book. It's NEVER an option for me.
> 
> There are problems in marriages. They happen. A wife might feel taken for granted and in turn not be interested in sex. A wife might be stuck with ALL of the child care responsibilities and in turn doesn't want another child so no interest in sex. A wife may be one of those women who are never satisfied with status quo. She may need the "chase" to get aroused, so if the husband isn't "gaming" her, she's not interested. A wife may just not like sex because it's "icky" "dirty" "boring" insert any number of reasons LD women turn down their HD husbands.
> 
> A husband may have medical issues he's too afraid to deal with (ED etc.). A husband may also be one of those people who love the chase but isn't satisfied once he "catches it". He may be one of those guys who finds sex "icky" (yes these men do exist) or is too lazy or interested in video games or insert any number of reasons a husband turns down his HD wife.
> 
> None of those situations are good. And they all have problems involved in them.
> 
> My thought is FIX THE PROBLEM. Don't look for a short cut. Cheating is a destructive short cut to a solution. It doesn't fix the marriage. There's no such thing as a "healthy" sexless marriage, unless you have two very LD individuals (for whatever reason). So either end the marriage because the two parties aren't sexually compatible, which sometimes is the reality....or fix the problem(s) in the marriage.


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## Zouz

WOW ,

that's really an interesting topic ; Sorry but my feedback will be long 

Being a man who survived an affair , reconciled with wife , I would say that Richard did hit the nail on the head :

When 2 gets married , most of the time they do not know how important it is to be matched or close to your partner sexually.

-I strongly believe too that the level of commitment nowadays is getting lower ; which will eventually lead to very low confidence in the institution called Marriage .


If mismatch is detected at earlier stage of marriage , Divorce is the best immediately ; but when you keep trying and trying hoping that Nun Theresa will dance or foreplay is a dream that will never come true .


Cheating is Bad ,it is a sin ...

HD men who are faithfull or have a high moral spend the remaining of their lives regretting an affair especially that most of the time they ( not sure if stupid or honest : me) come and confess about their sin .

From my side I have reconciled for instance with my LD partner ; but I believe logically , one day we will get back to the dilemma again ; how long she will spend 20 min of her time in something that doesn't even mean anything to her ?!

Candy crush is more interresting !

I hope I wrong ; but I am talking about human nature ; and specifically female nature ; because most of the time it is the HuB who is HD ; biologically speaking ;

add to this when Men approach middle age they have that feeling of starting to loosing their libido and the anguish feeling when their desires are not met ; 

Deprived men/women are very hurt ;very hurt believe me ; to an extent that they get lost if they sleep without fulfilling their needs ( if they can sleep) ;and hate themselves and their partner if they masturbate; so please nobody throw theories about morality and throw ideas like : it is ok if needs are not matched ...

I am A faithfull hub ; who helped his lazy wife for 17 years (house work , baby sitting , financially , etc... you name it ) ; I have never ever hit or abused my wife ;to an extent that i won't put pressure if she seems not in the mood ...

In my reconciliation I am making it clear now :

My needs have to be met ; 

-if not I will go to either open marriage ( obviously she will look as the honest person in front 0f everybody and I will be the son of the B...)

-Or I will exit ( harsh on Kids).

AN LD spouse can never show off saying he/she is faithful ; because you r faithful when you restrict urself from doing something you desire not something you don't .

It is similar to fasting ; would you be fasting if you sleep the whole day until sunset ; or fast on products you hate ?

Briefly , Though reconciled ( but believe that reconciliation process bet any two is a fake thing ion long term ; it will be used till the HD desire die ) ; from the begining either there is Chemistry bet the two ; or not ) ;I started to see marriage as a failing institution nowadays , why :

because it existed before when " both believes that we fix a broken Item ...".

The Base of the problem goes back to religion , social , etc .... 
and to the fact that :

Women marry men hoping they'll change. Men marry women hoping they won't.!


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## Dad&Hubby

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Dad&Hubby
> I agree that trying to fix the problem is good. The problem is that often the LD partner simply doesn't believe that there is anything to fix.
> I tried for 25 years. Really. I did everything I could think of.
> 
> So I was left with (as I often post)
> 
> 1) Leave the woman I love and am sworn to stay with my entire life. (hurting her badly in the process - she loves me - she just didn't want sex with me).
> 
> 2). Cheat and not let her find out. I didn't but I can not fault anyone in this situation who did.
> 
> 3). Live my life as a monk and deeply resent her for it.
> 
> I did #3 for 25 years. I don't think I'd recommend that solution to anyone.


I did it for 1.5 years with ZERO sex and what you'd call sexless for 3. In reality...I was the only one who was sexless LOL. 

Now I'm not saying your wife is having an affair...please don't take that from what I said..just that I can SOMEWHAT relate. 25 years though...wow.

So where are you at right now in your marriage?

PS You're right, you lay out 3 completely valid choices, there's even a #4: HD partner convince LD partner to allow an open relationship with specific boundaries.

Those are the 4 options in every sexless marriage. And you choose what you choose. For me....it would have been divorce because I don't put sex as a unique component in a marriage.

Communication, love, lust, sex, trust, friendship, compatibility (and more) are all integral parts of a marriage. How would your LD wife respond if you took a vow of silence....no more talking...ever. We can email, text, write notes, but no talking?

Isn't that the same thing as her with no sex? I would approach it like that. I would keep trying everything humanly possible to get my partner to recognize how important sex is to me and if she still chooses to....and this is important...IGNORE A CRITICAL NEED OF MINE....obviously it's not the healthiest of marriages.

Would you call a marriage where one partner physically starves the other of food...healthy? Or makes them sleep out in the rain....or refuses to talk...or chooses everyone else in any conflict and doesn't support their spouse.....

But for some reason, we see sex as different. It's not. It needs to be treated as any other critical component to a marriage. And if not...then the marriage needs fixing or ending.

Sorry you went through 25 years of that....I couldn't imagine living 25 years without the physical connection I get with my wife.


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## richardsharpe

Good afternoon Dad&Hubby
about the years ago I confronted my wife one final time - with a conversation that I expected to end with my saying I wanted a divorce. Even though I hadn't gotten to that point yet, I guess she finally realized how serious this was and tried to improve things.

Things DID improve a lot. Sex became frequent and fun- for BOTH of us. Life was wonderful -again not just for me. For some reason though it gradually started to decline again. There was always a specific excuse, always a reason, but over 3 years, every other day has become less than once a month. Now I once again need to decide what to do. 

Anytime I talk to her, she apologizes, she cries. Always there is a very good reason that particular time - but someone the tiredness, or whatever never prevents us from doing other things.


Its possible she was cheating, but I don't think so. I think that sex simply doesn't matter much to her. Its nice, but way down on the priority list. Something she only wants when everything is perfect - and life is never perfect. She enjoys sex when it happens. 

Open relationship is not an option. We have friends that are doing this, and my wife has made it clear that she thinks it is a terrible idea, and something she could never live with.


Of course part of the problem is that I don't want to be constantly begging for sex. I am well liked and considered reasonably attractive - there are women I know who have made it quite clear that they would be interested. 




Dad&Hubby said:


> I did it for 1.5 years with ZERO sex and what you'd call sexless for 3. In reality...I was the only one who was sexless LOL.
> 
> Now I'm not saying your wife is having an affair...please don't take that from what I said..just that I can SOMEWHAT relate. 25 years though...wow.
> 
> So where are you at right now in your marriage?
> 
> PS You're right, you lay out 3 completely valid choices, there's even a #4: HD partner convince LD partner to allow an open relationship with specific boundaries.
> 
> Those are the 4 options in every sexless marriage. And you choose what you choose. For me....it would have been divorce because I don't put sex as a unique component in a marriage.
> 
> Communication, love, lust, sex, trust, friendship, compatibility (and more) are all integral parts of a marriage. How would your LD wife respond if you took a vow of silence....no more talking...ever. We can email, text, write notes, but no talking?
> 
> Isn't that the same thing as her with no sex? I would approach it like that. I would keep trying everything humanly possible to get my partner to recognize how important sex is to me and if she still chooses to....and this is important...IGNORE A CRITICAL NEED OF MINE....obviously it's not the healthiest of marriages.
> 
> Would you call a marriage where one partner physically starves the other of food...healthy? Or makes them sleep out in the rain....or refuses to talk...or chooses everyone else in any conflict and doesn't support their spouse.....
> 
> But for some reason, we see sex as different. It's not. It needs to be treated as any other critical component to a marriage. And if not...then the marriage needs fixing or ending.
> 
> Sorry you went through 25 years of that....I couldn't imagine living 25 years without the physical connection I get with my wife.


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## Dad&Hubby

richardsharpe said:


> Good afternoon Dad&Hubby
> about the years ago I confronted my wife one final time - with a conversation that I expected to end with my saying I wanted a divorce. Even though I hadn't gotten to that point yet, I guess she finally realized how serious this was and tried to improve things.
> 
> Things DID improve a lot. Sex became frequent and fun- for BOTH of us. Life was wonderful -again not just for me. For some reason though it gradually started to decline again. There was always a specific excuse, always a reason, but over 3 years, every other day has become less than once a month. Now I once again need to decide what to do.
> 
> Anytime I talk to her, she apologizes, she cries. Always there is a very good reason that particular time - but someone the tiredness, or whatever never prevents us from doing other things.
> 
> 
> Its possible she was cheating, but I don't think so. I think that sex simply doesn't matter much to her. Its nice, but way down on the priority list. Something she only wants when everything is perfect - and life is never perfect. She enjoys sex when it happens.
> 
> Open relationship is not an option. We have friends that are doing this, and my wife has made it clear that she thinks it is a terrible idea, and something she could never live with.
> 
> 
> Of course part of the problem is that I don't want to be constantly begging for sex. I am well liked and considered reasonably attractive - there are women I know who have made it quite clear that they would be interested.


I think you've handled yourself exactly as you should, except for how patient you've been. You've explored the choices, you know an open relationship isn't going to work, you know that sex isn't going to improve.

I hope cheating isn't an option for you but unfortunately that leaves one last option.

Sorry....I truly am.


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## Crimsonshield

_Posted via Mobile Device_

I'm in a bit of a moral dilemma myself.
My husband of almost 3 years will not have sex with me. He has a myriad of health problems from fibromyalgia to PTSD. He is on disability for this. No amount pornography or viagra will make him want me. Long before we met he was an alcoholic who frequently slept with random women in bars.

The subject about his past prowess is off limits since it gets me going and I know he won't do anything about it lol.
He pretty much sleeps till the afternoon or sometime early evening and spends the rest of his time sitting in front of his computer programming his music in what he calls a catatonic state or he has what he calls break downs where the tiniest little things, like spilling a drink, set him off. 
Getting him to go out on a date is like pulling teeth...he does have agorophobia. On top of that he struggles with alcoholism- he hasn't had a drop in 3 years but he still struggles with it.

I had a startling revelation after the death of my estranged father. I'm not sure anymore if he was the one who sexually abused me. Everyone tends to lean on me for strength so when I have a problem they all run away.

My mother and brother won't talk to me because they don't like my husband. I feel like I've sacrificed everything and gained and nothing. I feel like I'm about 6 inches from a breakdown of my own. I have to help him deal with his problems , with my own problems and I have to work full time. It's enough to drive me mad.
II'm tired of being the pillar of strength. 
I feel like we're losing our connection.
I feel ugly and unwanted.
Shortly before my husband and I started dating I was trying to reconnect with an old flame. I dropped ten ton hints with this guy that I wanted to get back together but he disappeared.

Now against my better judgement I have been talking to said ex turned friend and he says he still love me and still wants me. Now the attention is nice but I know that he wouldn't know what to do with me if he had me. He blew his chance long ago and now wants what he can't have.

Its not a malicious thing...At least thats what I tell myself. It's escapism.


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## doobie

john117 said:


> Morals and values?
> 
> Everything moral happens for non moral reasons as well. Selling drugs is immoral but also not very profitable for the grunts - hint: read Freakonomics - so there's a good reason it's not happening in huge numbers. Same as robbing banks, the consequences of getting caught outweigh the consequences of not getting caught so...
> 
> Speeding is immoral but who doesn't speed?


That really made me laugh John - I truly believe that speeding is immoral and make a point of never speeding. The speed limit is there to minimise the extent of injury on impact and I truly could never forgive myself if I hit somebody with a car and they were injured more extensively because I was over the speed limit. 

However, I've always had a hankering to do a bank job since I was a kid - but a cool one that involves tunneling in rather than using weapons. I couldn't live with myself if I even frightened somebody by threatening them with a weapon, let alone actually using one and hurting somebody. I do think banks are fair game - they cause most of the problems in the world and it would be robbing a large corporation rather than stealing from a person (which I wouldn't do). Not sure what this says about my morals - but I think speeding is more immoral than robbing a bank (as long as no violence or threat of violence is used).


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## Crimsonshield

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RaiderGirl

GettingIt said:


> There are a million reasons to cheat, but no good excuses.
> 
> Cheating has no good end game, either. You get to be a cheater for the rest of your life.
> 
> My worst nightmare (literally, I've had this nightmare more than once): that I slip up and cheat and have to live with that forever. I'm not one of those people who say, "I know I'd never cheat." Bull. It could happen TO ANYONE.
> 
> I'd rather be cheated on than cheat. Why? Cause I know it would ruin my life and there is no way to erase it once you do it. But everyone is different, that's for shizzle.
> 
> My husband was unhappy with our sex life for more than ten years, and he stayed faithful. I am SO GRATEFUL to him--but but quite honestly, for his sake more than mine. I might have been able to forgive him; I doubt he would have forgiven himself.


When something is RUINED it means it is unrepairable, cant not be fixed, is no longer useful..etc. So perhaps ruined is too strong a word as is forever. Only eternity is longer than forever. An infidelity would hurt me, would make me angry, would change things but ruin only if he did not seek to earn my forgiveness.


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## RaiderGirl

Ziouz, I read your post with great interest. I can not live without sex in my marriage. Sex being whatever it can be at that time. I know the age will change things but there will always be some intimacy. I don't want a room-mate . I want a husband. You stated that you never pressured her, abused her and that you helped this lazy woman. Have you heard of a book by Athol Kay called Married Mans Sex life: The Primer. I have no personal interest in it other than I read it and I agree with most of his approach. Here is the thing... you cant make her want sex, you cant insist, you cant threatened but you can do whatever is needed to make her want to change . Or at the least you will change. Good luck friends. Marriage without sex is not a marriage. Its hell on earth.


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## john117

Unfprtunately, few marriages are out outright sexless 100%. A lot of what we are seeing here is the Universal LD constant of 1x a month, dead starfish, or both.

It's the marital equivalent of door mounted seat belts if you're old enough to remember those.


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## unbelievable

MelodyAnn said:


> You're simply quoting Maslow's hierarchy of needs; it's a _theoretical _model of what our needs as humans are. It is not based on some sort of hard scientific research that puts down in stone what our needs are, in order of priority. Someone could edit this list and place certain items in a slightly different order of priority based on their hypotheses of what matters most to humans, or is needed most. The above hierarchy is primarily based on just _one _intelligent person's reflections and propositions on human nature. I could see sex as easily placed on #3 - Love and Belongingness needs, where it would fall within the category of intimacy needs. I don't see sex as a basic survival need to be lumped together with the other necessities in #1 like food, air and water. If that were the case, all nuns, priests, monks of days old, and deployed combat personnel would shrivel up and die. But, they don't. We couldn't survive without things like food, air, sleep, etc. We can survive, and some thrive without sex. That aside, everyone's needs for sex/intimacy are not equal, and that's the problem with this couple. Her needs for intimacy of a sexual nature are not being met. But, she would be clearly cheating if she were to deceive her husband. The word _cheating_ strongly implies dishonesty and deception; that's why we _cheat _ on our taxes or _cheat _on a test. It's really the deception, IMHO, that makes something cheating, where we defraud others of the truth. If she were in an open marriage where her husband agreed to her having other partner(s), it would be a very different story, and wouldn't be cheating. If she can't get her needs met within the marriage, she needs to face the hard reality of leaving her husband if he would not be willing to have an open marriage.


Agreeing to be a sexual partner and then not being one is also cheating. Divorce might be a great option if the defrauding spouse was honorable enough to acknowledge their abuse and give their victim favorable terms. Highly unlikely to ever happen, so the withholding abuser gets what they get and they have lost all claim to victim status when they receive the just wages they spent so much time earning.


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## Mr The Other

Dad&Hubby said:


> I guess my interpretations to things are too simplistic.
> 
> 1. Cheating is wrong....there's no other way to view it in my book. It's NEVER an option for me.
> 
> There are problems in marriages. They happen. A wife might feel taken for granted and in turn not be interested in sex. A wife might be stuck with ALL of the child care responsibilities and in turn doesn't want another child so no interest in sex. A wife may be one of those women who are never satisfied with status quo. She may need the "chase" to get aroused, so if the husband isn't "gaming" her, she's not interested. A wife may just not like sex because it's "icky" "dirty" "boring" insert any number of reasons LD women turn down their HD husbands.
> 
> A husband may have medical issues he's too afraid to deal with (ED etc.). A husband may also be one of those people who love the chase but isn't satisfied once he "catches it". He may be one of those guys who finds sex "icky" (yes these men do exist) or is too lazy or interested in video games or insert any number of reasons a husband turns down his HD wife.
> 
> None of those situations are good. And they all have problems involved in them.
> 
> My thought is FIX THE PROBLEM. Don't look for a short cut. Cheating is a destructive short cut to a solution. It doesn't fix the marriage. There's no such thing as a "healthy" sexless marriage, unless you have two very LD individuals (for whatever reason). So either end the marriage because the two parties aren't sexually compatible, which sometimes is the reality....or fix the problem(s) in the marriage.


Indeed. Other times one partner enjoys sex, has sex several times a week pre-marriage to keep spouse interested as he akes it clear it is important to them. Once married, prefers not to bother with any sexual contact, as despite orgamsing fully on every month or two when she feels like it, it seems like too much effort. All other sexual contact is considered rapey and resists anyone who tries to explain to her that her position is not reasonable.

There are people who bring it on themselves, however, there are people who bring cheating on themselves. The solutions you suggest are very clear, but also extremely obvious. A man who is out of shape, insensitive, not pulling his weight around the house or not contributing financially is likely to be denied. 

However, if I have a jog round the park, I feel good. I usually cannot be bothered though. If I had the same attitude to sex, it would not matter what my wife did, I would not be bothered unless I considered her feelings for their own sake. There are many spouses who will not consider their husbands feelins for their own sake and therefore just not bother.


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## Mr The Other

RaiderGirl said:


> Ziouz, I read your post with great interest. I can not live without sex in my marriage. Sex being whatever it can be at that time. I know the age will change things but there will always be some intimacy. I don't want a room-mate . I want a husband. You stated that you never pressured her, abused her and that you helped this lazy woman. Have you heard of a book by Athol Kay called Married Mans Sex life: The Primer. I have no personal interest in it other than I read it and I agree with most of his approach. Here is the thing... you cant make her want sex, you cant insist, you cant threatened but you can do whatever is needed to make her want to change . Or at the least you will change. Good luck friends. Marriage without sex is not a marriage. Its hell on earth.


That book is very useful if you are making stupid mistakes, which we often do. Like most things in life, it offers good solutions if the problem is not serious.


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## WonkyNinja

Dad&Hubby said:


> I guess I'm going to be the voice of dissent.
> 
> No where in any marriage vows that I've taken or been witness to specifically stated that the spouses MUST, regardless of everything else, provide sex to the other.


Well one of the vows is usually "With My Body I Thee Honor" which is pretty hard to misinterpret. 

If you got married in a Christian ceremony then the passage from Corinthians 7 is usually read about how in becoming married the partners may not deny their spouse. There are other Bible passages at What Does the Bible Say About Sex In Marriage?.

I'm Athiest so I'll apologize for any errors before anyone jumps all over me for misquoting the Bible.



> I'm sorry but if my daughter married a man who abused her (in any way) treated her like dirt, demeaned her etc. I wouldn't expect her to then spread her legs for him.


As a Father I completely agree although your point is not really relevant here. If one spouse is abusing the other then they need to leave. Period. However witholding sex and intimacy, making it conditional or using it as a bribe or punishment is also emotional abuse.



> What this thought process is saying is ANYTHING is justifiable to allow cheating.
> 
> I, (name), take you (name), to be my (wife/husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; from this day forward until death do us part.
> 
> So if you stop cherishing me, stop making me feel loved, stop "holding me".....all of those are grounds for cheating....
> 
> PS I don't see "sex" specifically mentioned unless that's the "have" part.


As stated above you conveniently missed out "With My Body I The Honor" from that list.



> Cheating is NEVER okay. Divorce your sex-less spouse..then go get sex. Or reinvent your marriage to be an open marriage...as long as both parties agree.


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## dharmamontgomery

rubymoon said:


> And your point of too much work to seek and maintain an affair is a REAL argument, instead of a guilt shifting game.


It is a lot of work... but so is survival in a resentment filled sexless marriage. Men, IMO, have a harder time leaving because of possessions, children (they assume they will "lose" them), and in general change. So even the hard work of an affair will in some cases be easier than the pain & loneliness of a sexless marriage. Remember for many, sexless = constant rejection by someone that's suppose to love you. Eventually, indifference makes its way in...and then the affair is just a new way to maintain some sort of intimacy with someone that shows he/she cares for you. 

I've seen my "friend" (partner?) go up and down on the guilt see-saw. Over the course of 4 almost 5 yrs in our affair, he and I have ended it many times. I think what struck him the hardest the last time he ended it (attempted actually) was when I asked him if there was any chance he would ever get sex from his wife again, and he sullenly said "No." So I then asked "So that's the rest of your life??". He looked at me in shock, and just shrugged his shoulders "I guess." It took him a few weeks after that...but I think it's what hit him the hardest. And probably what's countered his feelings of guilt the most since then - the idea that he *doesn't* deserve or want a lifetime of rejection and denial of sex. 

Yes, I wish he would just divorce. And I know that's on the horizon. Because at this point, what started out as "just" sex... left an opening for some deeper soul searching. It's never about "just" sex. Unfortunately, getting the sex met elsewhere, again in a sexless marriage (due to non-health reasons) leads to the possibility that deeper needs finally come to light..and worse, are met by someone else. 

You initially referred to cheating in these cases as a form of survival. I never looked at it that way, but i couldn't agree with you more. Granted, it's the ego that's trying to survive...but like I said, once the sexual needs are met, the psyche continues to work and discover the deeper issues at the heart of the matter.


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