# infidelity and counceling



## stoney96 (Jul 20, 2009)

Some of you have read my story, but I had found out that my wife of 14 years had been cheating on me for 18 months.

We quickly got in to see a MC for resolution.

The first meeting was both of us. At that time we explained what was going on. But, the trickle truth hadn't fully kicked in, so the story we gave wasn't complete.

The MC told me that she would have to concentrate on individual meeting with my wife, to find the problem. If I had other issues that I needed addressed, I could schedule seperate sessions.

The next two sessions were with my wife only, and the last one was with both of us.

The sessions with my wife were based on earlier life histories, and her promiscuity and relationships. My wife came away from these with new thoughts and good feelings.

Unfortunatily, I was left hanging out here wondering when this would get fixed.

Our last meeting together, I brought up the actions of the infidelity, and I was told that they haven't discused that yet. I wondered WTF is going on. While my wife is getting the feel good therapy, I have been waiting 5 weeks from D Day, and nothing about the cheating has been addressed or discussed. I am no closer to why and how to fix it than the day I found out.

Today, reading "Divorce Remedy", I came accross a chapter where the author mentions just this issue, and his thoughts are that old issues should wait until the infidelity issue is addressed. It struck home to me.

Don't get me wrong, I like our councelor, and she is highly recomemnded by the church, but I'm going nuts waiting for someone to address the issues before I throw up my hands and leave.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Stoney


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Here's my thoughts... The infidelity is possibly a symptom of the problem. Now obviously to you, it's a critical issue. But until the therapist and your wife can work through what caused it, talking about the incident won't help. Even if you got her to apologize sincerely and you accepted, if you don't deal with the root issue, it would just be a matter of time before things blew up again. 

I guess there can be two points of view on how this should be handled. Have you spoken up about how you feel?

Keep in mind that I'm not a therapist, and I've never played one on TV. Didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night either.

C


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Bring up the infidelity at the next session. If you get rebuffed from discussing it, ask why.

Clearly you want answers. Clearly your wife wants to avoid them.

That her past impacts the telling of the truth or even a realization of the truth is also clear.

Why the counselor wants to tippietoe about things is unclear.

You need clarity and not a stage-managed period of time such as this.

and if your wife is still cheating this is not acceptable.

You may need a different MC entirely.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Stoney, my experience has been that counsellors don't want to talk about the infidelity. The message is that it happens, get over it, let's talk about the issues that lead to it. It puts a terrible burden on the betrayed spouse. And it is b*llsh*t and malpractice, as far as I'm concerned. 

If you read Not Just Friends, or find any RESEARCH on infidelity, it's clear that couples that talk in detail about the affair, recovery 80% of the time compared with less than 50% if it's glossed over.

I don't know why counsellors do it. Perhaps because many go on "feeling" versus fact. Or others use phsycological processes that almost always look at childhood issues. But I found it extremely damaging and I won't do marriage counselling as a result. 

Particularly if you have symptoms of post traumatic stress. (Which I had and didn't want to acknowledge because it sounds so wussy.)

Now, it's a good thing your wife is benefitting from counselling, however you may want to try and find another counsellor specifically for the marital issues. I'd interview several and ask their specific philosophy on dealing with affairs. If they are vague, or dodge the question, or give you anything but the answer you want, then move on. It is not safe to be lead by a counsellor, you need to guide the process. Don't let them convince you otherwise.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

PBear said:


> Here's my thoughts... The infidelity is possibly a symptom of the problem. Now obviously to you, it's a critical issue. But until the therapist and your wife can work through what caused it, talking about the incident won't help.


I want to respond to this because it is logical but doesn't address one thing...

I consider infidelity to be emotional assault. In some ways it's worse. I would have rather taken a beaten then dealt with my wifes cheating.

So, if you replace "infidelity" with "assault", and change "wife" to "husband", so it read:

"The assult was possibly a symptom of the problem. Now obviously to you, it's a critical issue. But until the therapist and your husband can work through what caused it, talking about the incident won't help."

Then that pass as good advice?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

seeking sanity said:


> I want to respond to this because it is logical but doesn't address one thing...
> 
> I consider infidelity to be emotional assault. In some ways it's worse. I would have rather taken a beaten then dealt with my wifes cheating.
> 
> ...


It kinda does to me... If you get everyone to forgive and forget the assault, swear it will never happen again, but don't actually deal with the issues that triggered the assault, it doesn't make much sense to stick both people back in the same house.

But I do like your advice about separate MC and IC... And as I said, I also think the OP is perfectly justified in raising the issue in a counseling session, and deserves an honest response. And if the counselor isn't working for both of them, then find one that does. Holding in frustrations/questions isn't a solution, as I've learned in my case. It just causes more frustrations and resentment.

C


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Hi PBear, I'm not specifically trying to diss you, so hope it doesn't come off that way. For me, the trauma has to be addressed before the cause of it, otherwise it trivialized the experience and leaves the betrayed feeling even more abused. 

At least that's been my experience. 

That's what I was trying to get across


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

SS, no offense taken! That's what the discussion forums are for, getting other people's input.

I'd ask though... How can you address the trauma that's been caused if you don't know what caused the trauma to occur? I realize that with physical abuse this isn't the case; you can fix a broken bone without knowing how it was caused. But is it the same with emotional trauma? I don't know the answer to that. But I suspect it's not as cut and dried...

C


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

PBear said:


> SS, no offense taken! That's what the discussion forums are for, getting other people's input.
> 
> I'd ask though... How can you address the trauma that's been caused if you don't know what caused the trauma to occur? I realize that with physical abuse this isn't the case; you can fix a broken bone without knowing how it was caused. But is it the same with emotional trauma? I don't know the answer to that. But I suspect it's not as cut and dried...
> 
> C


That's a great question. What causes someone to cheat is a complicated business, or at least it seems complicated at the time. Talking about the affair is how you answer it. First by getting the betrayed spouse to a functional point - no contact, full disclosure of what happened, including the awful details, and sincere actions on the part of the cheater to make ammends. AFTER that happens a discussion about what lead to it and circumstances will bring about insight.

However, what most of the counsellors do is avoid talking about it (some version of the details will only make things worse, so lets gloss over them) and talk about childhood sh*t or maritial sh*t that led to it. So the betrayed spouse is not given the tools to heal because they are left wondering what is true and what has been a lie. 

How can you forgive someone and move past it if you don't know what you are forgiving? Since most affairs involve months, and sometimes years, of lies and deception, during which time the betrayed spouse is going crazy to trying to figure out what is going on, the first step is for the betrayed spouse to get to the truth. AFTER that they can begin to heal and mend the marriage.

Maybe a different analogy: Lets say we're married and I have a gambling problem. I systematically drain our assets and run up a huge debt over many months. Bills go unpaid, cash disappears, the retirement fund is drained. At first you think you're losing it, and then you finally start to think maybe something is going on, and you finally catch me. Then I say, yes I've lost a bit of money. You want to know how much. How maddening would it be if we went to a counsellor and the counsellor said, it doesn't matter how much was lost, lets talk about how the marriage contributed to the gambling. You'd d*mn well want to know exactly how big the mess is before entertaining talk of moving past it, wouldn't you?

Make sense?


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## notreadytoquit (Jan 11, 2010)

Would love to hear input on this from our resident therapists on this forum.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm certainly no therapist either but I would think that both need to be addressed. As SS says, the marriage has been severely damaged by this. It's an issue for both of you. I agree with your assault analogy. If someone has a damaging experience (as you have) you need help. Of course the perpetrator needs some help too.

However, she has done something wrong. And now she's the one that gets to 'explore' her feelings and learn why she did what she did. Certainly helps with her guilt. e.g. it was a problem with her upbringing (parent's fault), relationship issues (your fault), poor self image and not feeling like an attractive woman (society's fault). And you end up sitting there having to figure things out for yourself! It does sound strange and I would also be interested in a real explanation as to why both problems are not getting addressed equally and why it's ok to push yours aside.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

I went back and read your very first post here - my impression was that she was having a PA with your brother at that time.

You may only be aware of the tip of the iceberg or her cheating.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

Atholk said:


> I went back and read your very first post here - my impression was that she was having a PA with your brother at that time.
> 
> You may only be aware of the tip of the iceberg or her cheating.


"Ouch!"

"Would love to hear input on this from our resident therapists on this forum."----NR2Q

They're here...alias' u dont know, yet.

Don't get me wrong, I like our councelor, and she is highly recomemnded by the church, but I'm going nuts waiting for someone to address the issues before I throw up my hands and leave.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?"-----Stoney 

"oh yeaaaah....." (Yello)

my 1st thought was the MC is trying to establish an open,
safe place/harbor, trust realm with yer DS, so that DS can
open up and "spill" and be open to the "fix its" that should
be comining around the corner (soon?) with or w/out yer 
help/participation.

2nd thought was that MC may be (also?) trying to string the
case along, 'cuz of "billable hrs" so to speak, if u catch my
drift. i dont know, i'm not there, but its done everyday all
around the world, in this & and other things.

3rd impression was, u're lucky no ones calling u controlling
(or something like/some such) of the process taking place.
i am not doing so but, some here are quick to, and will then
elminate yer thread or close it off if they dont like the many
contending opinions that flow/follow from it. 

4thly/finally, i think u need to communicate with that MC &/or do as some suggested and that is, get a IC for yerself &/or
another MC for the 2 of u. [i'd call the MC out myself, most likely. find out what shes doing & what the timetable is, as well
as my concerns are & her not addressing them timely like.

Shalom...........


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## stoney96 (Jul 20, 2009)

Wow, thanks for all of the input.



seeking sanity said:


> How can you forgive someone and move past it if you don't know what you are forgiving? Since most affairs involve months, and sometimes years, of lies and deception, during which time the betrayed spouse is going crazy to trying to figure out what is going on, the first step is for the betrayed spouse to get to the truth. AFTER that they can begin to heal and mend the marriage.


Thats my point exactly.

My wife has had 18 months to spin a fine web of lies and deciet, and everything in the first weeks + is a continuation of the untruth. She had opportunities in the last years to solve the problem, or continue its charade, and strengthen its walls.

But now, when its exposed, another problem occurs, one in which the honest, loyal side of the equation is aware, and new damage begins. In my case, it is me and my two kids.

It makes sense to me to attack, or investigate, the newest problem, or revalation. In this case, the LS and family, to prevent or slow down the devastation.

I look at it this way;

If my car is broken, and I take it to a mechanic to fix it, what do I expect?

I hope that he looks at what is happening right now, and works backwards to trace the problem down to fix it.

What I dont want him doing is calling Detroit, and asking the factory how they built the car, and studying how every part was made..

And, as a side not, working on the DS, in my opinion, is counter-productive in the early stages. The DS in this case has had 18 months of lies and fairytales, and its my opinion that the tale will continue, to some extent, with the MC.

As for me, I took the advice of the MC, and let her work on my wife, under the condition that if I needed to see her for my own session, I could schedule one.

I have now done that. I prefer to use the same councelor, so that we all will be working on the same page, and under the same rules.

Some suggest a different MC or IC, but I am affraid that two different philosophies might create issues.

Stoney


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

You have a completely valid concerns which I'd communicate to both your wife and the MC.

The one caution in all of this - forcing the issue to get details only works if you have a contrite and remorseful wife. This isn't always the case. For you to get the info you need you may have to defer your sense of betrayal, listen to your wife, and make it safe for her to tell you things. You'll be seething inside, but you can't show this to her or she'll just turtle back.

If you can get her to do it, read Not Just Friends together - it's an excellent book on infidelity.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Gonna Lay it on the line here...

Are you a religious person at all, do you have a church?

What is the relevance of that, you ask?

Because pastors, priests and ministers are invested in the sanctity of marriage, they are commited to protecting the marriage. 

MCs are not. They are commited to protecting the individuals, including and up to divorce. Simply put, Spirtual leaders will not suggest it as an option, MCs will.

I have seen 3 MCs and 2 pastors. worlds apart man... worlds apart. If you are not spiritual, then keep seeing you MC. but if you are, change now.

On a side note... probably a rant, whats with all the cheater love these days? They have a reason, they want forgiveness from the spouse, they want to forgive themselves... they are seen as the lost soul who needs help. Meanwhile the victim has to deal with it. ugh.. so frustrating. what happened to good old fashioned personal responsibility. Wasnt it Carl Marx who said that enviroment dictates behavior? AKA " he made me do it" ugh

gag


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## Smackdown (Feb 21, 2011)

I am in my 2nd time in MC and I can tell you this- her first job is to make sure you can both live in the same house w/o killing eachother. Her second job is the marriage. Our first time in MC my wife was still friends w/ her BF, I couldn't live like that. By the time she agreed to deep 6 the guy I was done, I wanted out. I left and realized I couldn't live w/o my kids so I went back. We are now in MC again and I just keep my mouth shut! She has a job to do and knows how to do it. The longer I talk about stupid things the longer the whole thing will drag out. It's been 10mo for me 
Mouse


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## stoney96 (Jul 20, 2009)

twotimeloser said:


> Gonna Lay it on the line here...
> 
> Are you a religious person at all, do you have a church?
> 
> gag


Twotime,

It's interesting you bring that up, in my case.

Our pastor was consulted, and he recomended this MC as one of the best.

The reason we immediately went to the pastor, is my wifes family and their closeness to the church.

My wofes brothers are all very active in the church, her uncles are all ministers, and get this, her mother has worked for the Bishop for many, many years.

So, surprise, surprise, who do you thing is the least supportive?

Why, her family, of course. They immediately placed all blame on me.

Stoney


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Well I'm not a "resident therapist" but I am a marriage coach, I do deal with this every day, and am also spiritual. 

To make a long story short, I believe in ending the affair FIRST...then figuring out what caused it, how it happened. You can't forgive someone while they are actively still hurting you!  And frankly, even if there are legitimate reasons for the marriage to break down, that still doesn't give license to having an affair! So #1--end the affair; #2--look for the cause. 

I have to also say that I think I'm somewhat unique in that I don't really believe in "delving into the past" looking for abuse or whatnot and using that as an excuse for the choice to have an affair today. As a coach, the approach is moreso talk to both spouses, find out where they are today, help them identify where they want to be, come up with steps and a plan to get to where they say they want to be, and then hold them accountable for doing the work to GET to where they say they want to be (work the plan)! 

And yeah--I do understand that issues from the past can affect and influence a person and the ways in which they think or think of themselves, but before growth can take place personally or in the marriage, the harmful activity (adultery) has GOT to end! As long as that's still ongoing, there will be no progress.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

stoney96 said:


> Twotime,
> 
> It's interesting you bring that up, in my case.
> 
> ...


First off.... Your pastor doesnt do MC? I have never heard of that. 

Second... Where is your family in all of this? Sounds like she has the team all geared up for her, where is your support? I dont think it is surprising that her family chooses a side here. Why are they involved again? 

Kids do this thing, where one parent says no, then they go to the other parent to seek approval. Sounds like what may be going on here. Is she looking for approval or is she looking for justification and absolution?

Absolution can not be obtained without reconcilliation. Even the Catholic church recognizes that. *former catholic here* 

Next time the church boys gang up on you, try asking if they believe that absolution can be achieved without first reconciling. 

Maybe then they will get her on track. 

Personally, I think you are just being railroaded. and lets face it, the marriage will never heal if you are beaten into submission.


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## stoney96 (Jul 20, 2009)

Twotime,

Our pastor heads a very large congregation in Houston, with several remote church locations, so he has no time for one-on-one counceling, but he does have enormaous resources that other churches don't have.

Her family hasn't chosen sides, as much as her parents have. It's odd, that people refer to her father as "morally superior", but I am seeing the opposite.

As far as my family, they are spread out accross the US. I have made phone contact, and they are very supportive of my decisions and have backed me in looking for reconciliation. They also support my option to move on, if the time comes. They are also very supportive of my spouse.

Despite all of that, my real questions were informative in nature, concerning the "typical" MC philosophy. I just thought that the LS and kids were being left in the dust, again.

Part of my problem is, this is new to me. 

I guess thats good.

Stoney


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

well from my experience with all the MCs i have seen, is this...

They will meet with you both and if one needs additional council, then it is scheduled seperate. Thats my personal experience.

I will say this... I was not opposed to my wife getting some help by herself, afterall she was obviously off her freakin rocker to do this in the first place, ya know...

The plus side to getting help is that both you and the cheater have someone else to listen to besides eachother. It is wierd, but you can tell her something, and she wont believe it unless the therapist tells her too.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> The plus side to getting help is that both you and the cheater have someone else to listen to besides eachother. It is wierd, but you can tell her something, and she wont believe it unless the therapist tells her too.


I have been dealing with this for 7 years. I would tell my wife something is wrong, or up with her and she would not listen until the Doc, her grandmother, mother, other friends finally told her the same thing. She just started to hear me out in the last year or so.


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