# The LD orientation



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
sorry for so many threads on this but its is a huge issue for me, and I think other people as well.

Should "LD" be considered an orientation - like straight, gay, etc. It seems to be a fundamentally different reaction to sex from HD people. 

A gay person cannot become straight. They can't be convinced - it is simply not the way they are constructed. A gay person might even be able to have an orgasm with an opposite sex partner, but they are not straight and are never going to be straight. If they are in a relationship with an opposite-sex partner, they will never be interested in an active sex life.

Maybe LD is just as basic and immutable. 

For HD people a lack of a good sex life is enough to make them miserable, no matter how wonderful everything else is. To a LD person it is "just sex" - a minor detail in life. 


Maybe realizing that your partner is LD should be viewed the same way as realizing that they are the wrong orientation? Not their fault, not something they can ever change.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I personally don't believe that most LD cases are an "orientation."

I think if the typical LD person found him- or herself out in the sexual marketplace, he/she would find the libido.

I believe a small fraction of people are truly LD by nature, but these people probably avoid intimate relationships in general.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I also don't think LD as an orientation would be a meaningful category. Some people are simply nonsexual and will likely always be but lots of people have huge variations in their drives over the course of their lives.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

People who are asexual consider it their orientation.

People who are naturally LD may or may not consider it that way, but those who have always been LD know there is nothing wrong with them. This is just who they are. 

People who are naturally HD know the same about themselves.

Yes let's stop trying to change and fix each other and work with who we really are.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Sex drive waxes and wanes over the course of a lifetime, and is also highly dependent on physical health, hormones, and day-to-day circumstances (exhaustion, young babies in the house, etc.). It's usually not static.

It's also very difficult for some people to admit their spouse's so-called LD is actually a symptom of other problems in a relationship, like buried resentment or not feeling attracted to the person they have become over the course of their marriage. It can be equally difficult for the so-called LD spouse to admit and express that they are no longer attracted because of x, y, and z because it won't be heard or they don't recognize that's why they are no longer turned on.

Labeling people as LD stops discussion and exploration because, "Oh, well, there's nothing that can be done."


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I personally don't believe that most LD cases are an "orientation."
> 
> I think if the typical LD person found him- or herself out in the sexual marketplace, he/she would find the libido.
> 
> I believe a small fraction of people are truly LD by nature, but these people probably avoid intimate relationships in general.


Good points. So what is it then? Laziness?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

lucy999 said:


> Good points. So what is it then? Laziness?


I think it's basically lack of attraction for your current partner, which can be caused by a variety of things.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think many - if not most - LD people are that way naturally. If they weren't they'd desire sex and do something to obtain it. Since they are happy without much sex, I'd say it's innate. Even if lack of desire is situational, they would know they have desire but not want to act on it with their spouse. If that's the case they are at fault for not attempting to fix the situation, or not leaving.

An HD person knows they are HD, and know that even if the situation is turning them off towards their spouse. So there is clearly a fundamental difference between LD and HD that is not based on circumstances.

If LD tendencies were identified and known, it might help prevent mismatched libidos in relationships, which would lead to more successful - or at least happier - relationships, IMO.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm weighing in on the side of just being with the "wrong" partner... someone who you are truly NOT attracted to in the right way.

I've weighed in here many times about chemistry, spark, that "thing"... (heck, just look at my signature line!) And to those who say that spark and chemistry fades over time, I say "Hogwash!" My attraction for my SO hasn't waned ONE bit. In fact, it has only gotten stronger.

I DO believe there is a SMALL percentage of the population that is truly asexual. But it is small.

I think many people marry the "checklist" -- good mate, good provider, same religion, good family, well educated, etc. -- and don't pay attention to whether or not this partner REALLY floats their boat.

I made that mistake. I am willing to bet many others here have as well.

Good thread, richard.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

So if your spouse is not attracted to you in that way, and therefore does not have desire for you. Why do they not have desire for someone else?

I mean my wife is still attractive to me, so I still have desire. But I also have attraction to others. I always have. I subdue my desire for others consciously. Now if she has lost desire for me, is she choosing misery by continuing to subdue desire for others?

What a mess she must be in.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

As you all know I was once married before for 18 months and was LD. With my current wife I am HD.
The problem with the LD stuff is "truth." The last thing I was going to tell my first wife was the truth: "honey, I know you think I'm low drive, but I'm not really that way. In fact, I want to bang just about every woman I see, just not you."

I think ones current "drive" is directly related to who you are with and what kind of vibe you're CURRENTLY getting from that person.
If I just screamed my lungs out at my wife because she over cooked my steak I can guarantee that she'll be low drive for about a month. If my outbursts happen on a regular basis, I would now have a permanently LD spouse.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

But this really is driven by multiple factors. Maybe the main ones are: 

- Raw sex drive
- Sexual desire for partner (sexual chemistry)
- Desire for non sexual time with your partner (social chemistry?)
- Desire to please your partner (making them happy makes you happy)
- Dependence on your partner (mostly financial, could also be as a co parent) - this drives a desire to avoid upsetting/losing your partner










happy as a clam said:


> I'm weighing in on the side of just being with the "wrong" partner... someone who you are truly NOT attracted to in the right way.
> 
> I've weighed in here many times about chemistry, spark, that "thing"... (heck, just look at my signature line!) And to those who say that spark and chemistry fades over time, I say "Hogwash!" My attraction for my SO hasn't waned ONE bit. In fact, it has only gotten stronger.
> 
> ...


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

I'm not sure LD is permanent. I'm not sure that my wife is simply LD. She's just LD with me. Who knows, maybe she'll meet that special someone that lights her fire and turn in to an HD with him.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> I'm weighing in on the side of just being with the "wrong" partner... someone who you are truly NOT attracted to in the right way.


But, I think there HAS to be a significant difference between the genders.

I KNOW that it's the current fashion to imagine that men and women have exactly the same sexuality and that there's no difference what-so-ever between them.

Wouldn't the surprising result be if different genders and thousands of years of evolution ended up with them being exactly the same?

And the "Wives stop wanting sex after marriage" meme didn't just come out of nowhere. Right? I mean, when was the last Excedrin commercial where the wife hits on the husband and he says "not tonight"?

I know that there are plenty of wives that aren't getting the sex they'd like, but I don't believe it's to the same degree and many of these problems could be due to ED issues. 

I think a major issue is that women tend to be RD in familiar circumstances, especially when the frequency isn't maintained. A common refrain is "but she likes it when we do it". That's RD and can be resolved by caring about your partner's happiness (assuming you actually love them).


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## tbk (Apr 22, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> So if your spouse is not attracted to you in that way, and therefore does not have desire for you. Why do they not have desire for someone else?
> 
> I mean my wife is still attractive to me, so I still have desire. But I also have attraction to others. I always have. I subdue my desire for others consciously. Now if she has lost desire for me, is she choosing misery by continuing to subdue desire for others?
> 
> What a mess she must be in.


This^^. My wife believes she has been really low libido her whole life. She really gets into it after making a decision to have sex 1-2 times per week. But overall...no sexual thoughts or anything.

There have been plenty of times I know I am not being the most attractive person...and maybe over time it has been the cause. But now that I am older, and during times when I am not attracted to her, I definitely don't lose my libido overall.

She swears it is her. But after some drinks and at a party every once in awhile I see the sign of a flushed wife talking to someone attractive. I am not jealous about it...just baffled.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> sorry for so many threads on this but its is a huge issue for me, and I think other people as well.
> 
> Should "LD" be considered an orientation - like straight, gay, etc. It seems to be a fundamentally different reaction to sex from HD people.
> ...


Your wife did have (more) frequent sex with you and she enjoyed it *when she was interested enough in your happiness to put forth the effort. *

Ask her why she no longer cares about your happiness.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If LD is situational, then LDs are totally reprehensible, selfish people, as they are neither working to fix the problem they have with their partner, and they are not leaving to free their - usually - loving and frustrated partners to find someone who does love them.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I believe most LDs are solipsistic and lack empathy.

They genuinely do not see a problem because they don't perceive one.

Not exactly malicious, but defective nonetheless.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> If LD is situational, then LDs are totally reprehensible, selfish people, as they are neither working to fix the problem they have with their partner, and they are not leaving to free their - usually - loving and frustrated partners to find someone who does love them.


That thought is what bothers me so much.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Nora, I agree. That's why I mentioned naturally LD and HD in my post. When our natural sex drive has been changed by outside factors, hormonal changes, or relationship issues, you are not dealing with the same phenomenon. 

But some people really are LD or HD or anything in the middle naturally and it doesn't change throughout most of their lives. I'm one of these and know so many others.

I agree there should be a distinction made. I also don't think the two groups understand each other very well. For instance, when people say that the sex life is usually a mirror of what is going on emotionally in a relationship, that doesn't apply to me at all (two HD's) because no matter how horrible things are outside the bedroom, there's nothing but bliss inside.

That's just one example.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I believe most LDs are solipsistic and lack empathy.
> 
> *They genuinely do not see a problem *because they don't perceive one.
> 
> Not exactly malicious, but defective nonetheless.


That's the rub. Too often the HD partner is SURE that their spouse MUST know that there is a problem. As someone said recently "never underestimate one's ability to not see a problem that they don't want to know about".

Given that. It's the HD's responsibility to *make certain *that their partner understands the severity of the problem. Generally this can only be done convincingly by destabilizing the marriage.

Then if the LD doesn't respond, then the HD has to decide if they can continue being married to someone that doesn't care about their happiness.

Then again, if the HD is being an a$$hole and the "supposed LD" points that out.... then it's time for some self improvement.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> So if your spouse is not attracted to you in that way, and therefore does not have desire for you. Why do they not have desire for someone else?


Ahhh... but Mr. Nail. Herein lies the conundrum.

If they were willing to "look" (aka "cheat") they would probably find their sexual match.

But most people, IMHO, just *settle*. In other words, they accept the party line (old wives' tales, common wisdom, women's magazines advice, whatever) that "this is all there is." "Spark fades. Chemistry fades. Marriage is hard work. Love is a 'choice.' Get used to it."

I'm not buying it for a second . 

I know, because I lived those old wives' tales for 20 years. 'Til I met my current SO (going on 5 years). I am attracted to him (and he to me) MORE now than when we met. We cannot keep our hands off eachother. I don't mean in a gross PDA way; I mean -- touching when we are on the couch, intertwined when we go to sleep, arm in arm (like skinny awkward teenagers do!) wherever we go. And our eyes meeting across the room wherever we are -- party, outing, dinner -- just to reconnect. To know that I am his and he is mine. 

Given their right chemical match, I believe LDs could turn into sexual dynamos.

I hate to be cliche and sappy, but go read "The Bridges of M*dison County." You can read it in an afternoon. It's a light read, not going to win any Pulitzer's for sure. No literary awards. But you will discover, through the character of Francesca, what these so called LDs are missing from their lives -- passion, spark, desire, chemistry, wild animal attraction.

Sad, but true. Many of us married the "wrong" people.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Ahhh... but Mr. Nail. Herein lies the conundrum.
> 
> If they were willing to "look" (aka "cheat") they would probably find their sexual match.
> 
> ...


I think you've got to consider the possibility that "the more you have it, the more you want it". I know the wife and I have gone through periods when we almost forgot about it and others where we're going at it constantly. The more you do it, the higher it is on the list of things that seem like a nice idea. I'm guessing that since you and your OP have been at it non-stop, that plays a role.

There are many (most?) relationships that started out hot (don't they all?) and ended up cold (too many). 

If we only matched up when the chemistry was perfect, would the satisfied members of each gender even out?


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

My LD husband wasn't always LD. When we were dating, he had great drive but now I think for me anyways that sex is used as a weapon. The reason I say that is because I've talked and talked about this so he is very much aware. We primarily have it when he wants to and since my drive is higher I don't refuse unless I want to betray my marital vows. By the way, when he was cheating, he had no problem keeping up with me. My marriage has more problems than sexually intimacy


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Holy crap this is an excellent thread but man, it's quite depressing for me. 

Also, by having an LD partner, does that automatically make the other HD? Because I honestly don't think I'm HD.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

happy as a clam said:


> Ahhh... but Mr. Nail. Herein lies the conundrum.
> 
> If they were willing to "look" (aka "cheat") they would probably find their sexual match.
> 
> But most people, IMHO, just *settle*.


Yes she finds Cheaters reprehensible. So herein lies another conundrum. If there is another better match for here out there, Am I the selfish one for not releasing her from her vows. She cannot allow herself that freedom unless she believes that she is not attracted to me. As long as she believes that this is just natural decline she is stuck.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> Holy crap this is an excellent thread but man, it's quite depressing for me.
> 
> Also, by having an LD partner, does that automatically make the other HD? Because I honestly don't think I'm HD.


If you want it once a week and your partner only wants it every other month, it's still the same problem.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
In the few times I've been able to have a rational discussion of this with my wife she has indicated that she has never had interest in sex - not for me, and not for anyone.


The reason I think it might be like an orientation is that her reaction seems similar to how a gay person might react to an opposite sex partner. Since some people are attracted to men, some to women, some to both - and those are considered "orientations", I don't see why an attraction to neither is not an orientation.

Physical ability to enjoy sex is unrelated - people can have pleasurable physical sensations with someone of a gender that they are not attracted to (however unpleasant the thought might be).

Yes, there is a good argument that we should never have gotten married - but that water is under the bridge and out to sea.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

Before marriage, my H gave the impression that sex was important to him, talking about the great sex life that awaited us. He told me quite early on about how he and his first wife were swingers, holding sex parties and having threesomes (always with another woman), boasting about how he talked a topless model into bed with them and how much his wife enjoyed it. Then we tied the knot (just over two years ago) and the sex dried up immediately. I now suspect that he was also low drive in his first marriage which is why they did all the swinging, it was probably his wife who suggested/introduced it.

It's not that he doesn't know that it's a problem - I've told him (not in anger, but in a kind manner) that it's making my life a misery. The last time we spoke about it I asked about his sex life with his ex (not the wife but a 5 year girlfriend) and he admitted that they had quite a lot of sex at first but then not so much, which he claimed was down to relationship problems between them. We've had no relationship problems that would cause this - in fact, it's the other way round, the lack of sex has caused all of our relationship problems. Despite me letting him know quite clearly that I can't carry on like this, he has made no effort to do anything about our situation and I've now moved into the spare room so that I can at least have sex with myself (I told him that was the reason). 

There's no intimacy between us, barely any connection any more and I feel that my marriage is over - if I could afford to leave, I would. The lack of sex has ruined our marriage in less than two years. He sees me reading books about how to address the problem, but expresses no interest in either reading them or talking to me about the issue. When we do have talks about it, he usually bursts into tears which causes me to back off. I've never raised my voice about this, never expressed anger, just told him that I fee desperately sad and can't continue like this indefinitely. I've always spoken to him in a caring and sensitive manner about this issue. 

Most of the time I'm fairly happy and content with life in general, just not with our marriage. On the few occasions that it gets me so down that I show the sadness, he gets annoyed with me because I'm not my usual cheerful self. I wish I'd never married him and feel trapped in an impossible situation. Because he's shown no interest in fixing this problem, I see no hope for the future and am working my butt off to save some money to leave. He's barely earning, so my income goes on bills, rent, etc. 

While looking for answers online, I recently came across the term "anhedonia" - an inability to feel pleasure and I suspect that this is what's affecting him. I also think he's low T and he's quite unhealthy, leading a very unhealthy lifestyle. Bad eating habits and spends most of his time nowadays lying in bed. I've talked to him about how his eating habits and lack of exercise will have affected his T levels but he's not made any effort to change that. He did give up drinking a couple of months ago (he was on half a bottle of whiskey a day) and, although he claims to feel much better for that, it hasn't made much difference to our relationship. The sooner I can manage to save enough money for a couple fo month's rent and an agency fee, the better.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I don't buy the orientation either. Too easy not taking responsibility for our life choices, which lead to other choices and other certain choices, then it must be genes made me do it. No. We all made our own choices.

My wifee is considered LD. This is not her orientation or genetics nonsense.

My wifee told me, somewhat recently after 15 years of marriage, she is LD because.........she is extremely insecure about her body and doesn't think she is sexy. There you have it. Orientation didn't do this, nor did genetics. She is very insecure about her size.

Solution, she finally had enough of being a bigger girl and decided to do something about it. She now goes to the gym for weights and cardio and has lost a lot of weight. She got braces to straighten her teeth which was another major insecurity she had, smiling. New hair styles, clothes, shoes and she is no longer LD. She is more average drive now but is still a vanilla girl. I have to initiative because she is more passive and and I naturally am the aggressive type.

Orientation and genetics had nothing to do with this. She finally took responsibility of her body by taking care of it and everything else just flowed afterwards.

Also, she was LD because both her parents are very conservative, quiet and shy and so is Mrs.CuddleBug. That translated into the bedroom as well.

If Mrs.CuddleBug would of taken care of herself from before we met and got married, she would of been a healthy sex drive woman today and I wouldn't of signed up at TAM.


What made Mrs.CuddleBug LD

- her size, bigger girl and needed to lose a lot of weight
- her teeth, wouldn't smile much
- raised by shy, quiet and conservative parents
- told in her highschool and early college years, she woudln't amount to much
- told she was fat
- her first and only boyfriend before me was a jerk and about her size


None of this is orientation or genetics. It's all how we are raised, our beliefs, morals, our parents, our friends, our coworkers, events in our lives good and bad and the choices we make.:smthumbup:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Unless one is, themselves, LD, a prospective mate who is LD probably shouldn't be considered at all. Someone who is LD shouldn't be applying for positions they don't wish to serve in. If I was afraid of heights, I'd have no business applying for a job as a tight rope walker. If I made a mistake and found myself in a role I was unwilling to perform in, I should do the honorable thing and quit.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Richard, check out AVEN. Yes, it is an orientation.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

People today blame everything on genetics and orientation and never take responsibility for the moral free will and choices they make in life.

I could right now, go out with some of the guys, to a pub or bar, meet some hotties that want sex. Since I enjoy sex, I am considered HD but do I go out and have sex with other ladies who also are HD? No.....I'm married to Mrs.CuddleBug. But my genetics and orientation made me go out and have sex with other HD ladies......sheesh


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sad when people assume we are all the same since there are such huge variations in normal human sexuality.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Unless agreed-upon before the nuptials, it is assumed that a marriage will involve sex. That is an important component of the job description. People have an obligation to their spouse to willingly participate in sex within the limits of their physical limitations. People who are simply not interested or are unwilling are not being spouses. Those who purport to be what they are not are frauds. No human has the right to turn another human into a sexless half-human. I don't care what they call themselves because no sexually functioning human has any use for one. Let them call each other by whatever term zombies wish to use.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> If LD is situational, then LDs are totally reprehensible, selfish people, as they are neither working to fix the problem they have with their partner, and they are not leaving to free their - usually - loving and frustrated partners to find someone who does love them.


I disagree. Some LD people do recognize it and do try to work on it. Just because someone is LD doesn't necessarily mean they aren't having sex, also. Some choose to "provide" for their spouse when they aren't into it, and when done out of a spirit of love and giving is not a bad thing. Some look into hormones, therapy, etc. These efforts aren't always successful in restoring a sex drive.

Just because someone is LD, situational or not, doesn't mean they're selfish. Some may be, but I wouldn't paint them all with that brush.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"I'm this way so everyone else should be too" is not science.

Whereas, there actually is science behind asexuality and higher and lower sex drives.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Nice post Fozzy.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> I disagree. Some LD people do recognize it and do try to work on it. Just because someone is LD doesn't necessarily mean they aren't having sex, also. Some choose to "provide" for their spouse when they aren't into it, and when done out of a spirit of love and giving is not a bad thing. Some look into hormones, therapy, etc. These efforts aren't always successful in restoring a sex drive.
> 
> Just because someone is LD, situational or not, doesn't mean they're selfish. Some may be, but I wouldn't paint them all with that brush.


All but the physically disabled can do something to take care of their spouse. Those who don't are selfish.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

To the point of the thread, I think Lila nailed it. Asexuality can be more or less defined, and so it works better as an orientation.

LD/HD is relative to your own position on the scale and can't really be quantified.

Kind of like George Carlin used to say about driving--everyone slower than me is a moron and anyone faster than me is a maniac.


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## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

If there is an orientation for it - then those people should never get married, ever. They are signing their spouses up for a lifetime (unless spouse wakes up before then and bolts) of rejection, depression, sexual and mental frustration and everything else inbetween.

Its not a true marriage (all things being equal eg. health issues etc), it is a roommate relationship. Barf!

Speaking from experience of a woman married to a formerly LD husband - when you have a HD/LD situation in a marriage - there's usually a giver and a taker. Some LD's seem to be takers who are used to sitting back and letting the HD spouse fall all over themselves to get into their pants aka suck up jobs. Some LD's also tend to be bad communicators where the HD spouse is left playing the 100 question guessing game as to what the problem is when more often than not the LD has the answer.

I think the most frustrating thing about the HD/LD dynamic is when the LD spouse:

1. won't acknowledge there is a problem
2. is quite happy with the status quo - never mind the love of your life is very unhappy.
3. doesn't care that you're unhappy
4. refuses to do anything about it including a compromise that last's more than 1 week.

I think the HD/LD dynamic works if both parties are willing to deal with the issue and communicate well to come up with a compromise/solution that makes both parties feel loved and happy.

My husband is a lot better now in general however there are still issues b/c overall he is still selfish in some areas in life. He even admitted this himself.

Sometimes I think that if a HD spouse were to leave an LD spouse. The LD spouse would find another relationship and hey presto! their libido would suddenly appear out of nowhere - until they have the next quarry hooked then suddenly it will go into hiding again.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> I'm weighing in on the side of just being with the "wrong" partner... someone who you are truly NOT attracted to in the right way.
> 
> I've weighed in here many times about chemistry, spark, that "thing"... (heck, just look at my signature line!) And to those who say that spark and chemistry fades over time, I say "Hogwash!" My attraction for my SO hasn't waned ONE bit. In fact, it has only gotten stronger.
> 
> ...


I can't begin to speculate on what percentage of people this spot on posts covers, but I do suspect it's more than most would be comfortable truly acknowledging.

In societies where the stigma of divorce is low, and the freedom of choice high, I think "chemistry/spark/that thing" is more vital than ever to keep two people not only together, but _interested_, in the long haul.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> If there is another better match for here out there, *Am I the selfish one for not releasing her from her vows.* She cannot allow herself that freedom unless she believes that she is not attracted to me. As long as she believes that this is just natural decline she is stuck.


Do you want my honest opinion? YES. If you are both trapped in a non-sexual marriage, neither of you is attracted to each other in the right way, then YES! Do yourselves a favor... let each other out of your shackles.

Life is too short to be caught in an asexual prison.

Just my two cents...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening 
In my case, and from discussions here I think it applies to some others as well, my wife simply does not understand that it is important -no matter what I say. 

Last sunday, without prompting she said she was sorry she had been too busy to have sex. Other times she will apologize for being too tired, or ill, or something. I'm about to try again, but I seem unable to get her past:

1). Normal people only have sex every month or so, and that is mostly younger couples

2). Its only sex. This is the most serious problem: we have some wonderful lives, we do so many things together, why am I worried that we don't happen to have sex very often?

3). Don't do anything you don't want. She has been told so many times that you should only do things you want in bed - so if she doesn't happen to feel like it she doesn't do it. Doing it as a favor for me seems a violation of that rule that women are taught. 

She feels #3 doesn't apply to me since I enjoy giving her all forms of physical attention. (which I do).




Buddy400 said:


> Your wife did have (more) frequent sex with you and she enjoyed it *when she was interested enough in your happiness to put forth the effort. *
> 
> Ask her why she no longer cares about your happiness.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Personally, I think LD is a state of mind - more than it is a state of being!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

Clearly you're a bright resourceful guy in all other areas of your life. 

And you appear to be a perfect example of that quote: sex is 10%'of the relationship when it's good, and becomes 90% of the relationship when it's bad. 

We all communicate via multiple channels. At the highest level of abstraction there are two channels:
- talking
- doing 

I'm convinced that a very common situation occurs when the HD spouse's talking and doing are 180 degrees out of phase. 

They say: this is a big issue and it really bothers me
They do: all the kind, supportive, loving things that you do for someone you are happy with 

The rare times I've gotten to read posts from LD spouses have been fairly consistent regarding this pattern: They truly don't believe the verbal message. They dismiss it and instead choose to focus on all the actions - which make them feel good and reinforce their belief that sex really isn't that important to their partner. 

Now most men come packaged with incredibly powerful 'mate protection' circuitry. I've got it. You've got it. 

It prevents the intentional use of dread - as a tactic. 

If I recall correctly: 
You reached your breaking point once, and were close to ending the marriage. And your W responded in a way that is as old as time. 

You need to find a way to convey - through actions - and ideally without the use of dread - that YOU matter TOO. And that means she can't substitute 'other stuff' for this part of the marriage. There is no substitute for this. 

M2 connects with me - because she gets that concept. She takes pride in being a good/great wife. She's mot doing it to avoid a bad outcome, she's doing it to contribute to an overall happy, loving dynamic. 




QUOTE=richardsharpe;12265706]Good evening 
In my case, and from discussions here I think it applies to some others as well, my wife simply does not understand that it is important -no matter what I say. 

Last sunday, without prompting she said she was sorry she had been too busy to have sex. Other times she will apologize for being too tired, or ill, or something. I'm about to try again, but I seem unable to get her past:

1). Normal people only have sex every month or so, and that is mostly younger couples

2). Its only sex. This is the most serious problem: we have some wonderful lives, we do so many things together, why am I worried that we don't happen to have sex very often?

3). Don't do anything you don't want. She has been told so many times that you should only do things you want in bed - so if she doesn't happen to feel like it she doesn't do it. Doing it as a favor for me seems a violation of that rule that women are taught. 

She feels #3 doesn't apply to me since I enjoy giving her all forms of physical attention. (which I do).[/QUOTE]


----------



## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> 
> Clearly you're a bright resourceful guy in all other areas of your life.
> 
> ...


Amen! Amen!!!!!!!


----------



## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> But most people accept the party line that "this is all there is." "Spark fades. Chemistry fades. Marriage is hard work. Love is a 'choice.' Get used to it."
> 
> I'm not buying it for a second .
> 
> ...


In my case I don't think is a wrong person issue. It was a lack of marriage knowledge issue and a very damaged relationship from that. 

We had it and I then spent ten years of fifteen taking her for granted, almost lost her, learned about how to fix it, fixed it, backslid several times, refixed it, and now can only get back SOME of it but not all. I am still trying and still progressing but it is a fairly long road getting back there. 



Buddy400 said:


> I think you've got to consider the possibility that "the more you have it, the more you want it". I know the wife and I have gone through periods when we almost forgot about it and others where we're going at it constantly. The more you do it, the higher it is on the list of things that seem like a nice idea. I'm guessing that since you and your OP have been at it non-stop, that plays a role.
> 
> *There are many (most?) relationships that started out hot (don't they all?)* and ended up cold (too many).
> 
> If we only matched up when the chemistry was perfect, would the satisfied members of each gender even out?


Good points. I do think they all start out hot. I have another LD thread here that is trying to build an LD knowledge base and define these points more clearly to eliminate some of the confusion that the honeymoon chemistry causes when the true LD type settles in after the honeymoon period is over.



maritalloneliness said:


> My LD husband wasn't always LD. When we were dating, he had great drive but now I think for me anyways that sex is used as a weapon. The reason I say that is because I've talked and talked about this so he is very much aware. We primarily have it when he wants to and since my drive is higher I don't refuse unless I want to betray my marital vows. By the way, when he was cheating, he had no problem keeping up with me. My marriage has more problems than sexually intimacy


They all state hot. I have not heard of one that has not but I believe it is biochemistry at work that eventually wears off and the true LD/HD types sets in for the long haul but can be altered with skill, desire, adjustment and consistent follow through of known solutions.



Fozzy said:


> Kind of like George Carlin used to say about driving--everyone slower than me is a moron and anyone faster than me is a maniac.


Fun way to put it 



FizzBomb said:


> If there is an orientation for it - then those people should never get married, ever. They are signing their spouses up for a lifetime (unless spouse wakes up before then and bolts) of rejection, depression, sexual and mental frustration and everything else inbetween.
> 
> Its not a true marriage (all things being equal eg. health issues etc), it is a roommate relationship. Barf!
> 
> ...


Amen


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CuddleBug said:


> People today blame everything on genetics and orientation and never take responsibility for the moral free will and choices they make in life.
> 
> I could right now, go out with some of the guys, to a pub or bar, meet some hotties that want sex. Since I enjoy sex, I am considered HD but do I go out and have sex with other ladies who also are HD? No.....I'm married to Mrs.CuddleBug. But my genetics and orientation made me go out and have sex with other HD ladies......sheesh


The flaw in this argument is that you are not doing something you want. What if it were something you did NOT want? How would you choose to want it? Suppose at that bar MEN were hitting on you - you would have NO trouble turning them down because you don't want that interaction. I think LDs have this kind of response. I suppose you could choose to have sex with a man, but would you choose to do so regularly?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Personally, I think LD is complex, with several factors playing a role to various degrees that will be different for each LD.

I am pretty sure there is a genetic component.
There is definitely a nurture/upbringing or attitude/belief component, and that may include body image issues.
And there is a situational component.

I also think that recognizing that there is a spectrum of baseline libido is a fairly new realization, so many people have no idea about this range and that what is normal - for them - may not be normal for a partner, and so they choose partners poorly.

Until recently, choosing the wrong partner was seldom anyone's fault, because people did not have the criteria to evaluate this issue. Now, this knowledge is readily available, but many people don't find it until a problem already exists, and hope to find a solution, which for the vast majority does not occur.

So, for LD-HD couples where the LD is mostly genetic, innate, or deeply conditioned from upbringing, there is no solution - they can choose to live with it or break up.

If the reasons can be determined to be more situational, then there is a chance to improve things, but only if the LD is willing. If the LD is not willing, then it is entirely their fault for refusing to do so.

I will add that even LD people will have higher libido during the first year or so of a new relationship, due to the initial hormone surge of falling in love. This is a known an documented fact, and it is also known that these hormones wear off after one to two years. Only then can baseline libido be determined, and even then there is the whole spectrum of causes that come into play.

So, my feeling is don't commit to a permanent relationship (or have children) until at least two years into a sexual relationship, and if a libido mismatch occurs and can't be fixed within at most another year, end the relationship. Most people either don't have the patience to wait this long, or have bonded and find it very difficult to break up at this point. They'll either live with the frustrations, or break up later on instead of saving themselves years of unhappiness.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I've always looked at LD as a condition, but a self chosen one and not genetic or an orientation. I think people determine their sex drive at any given period of time.

When my wife & I first married, nearly 19 years a go, she was nympho-like, we had sex a ton, she would love to give me oral as well, but never to her and that has been a life long consistent.
10 years ago, the sex started falling way off and in the past few, not even once a month. As I've stated in another thread, her "turn on" was wanting to get pregnant & that fueled her "drive". Once she gave up on the possibility, her drive went with it. Oral is gone as well because she saw a documentary on germs and now the thought grosses her out. I've told her that is just a justification you latched on to for guilt suppression?

Me on the other hand, have always been more HD, but over the years, because of what I've adapted to, for sanity, have become closer to LD, in that I don't "need" it anymore either, I still love it, but I'm not dead without it?
My point is, she chose to be horny at the thought of having a baby & then chose to not be, once that dream was dead.

I chose to be not horny, when I became dissatisfied with frequency, attitude & general intimacy. Choosing to be HD again would just be torture for me. Maybe it's just me, but I can turn my drives on and off like a light switch. But on the other hand if we had sex daily for months, it would be harder again to go without, so I'm careful not to push for too much, because it never stays there.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Just because someone is LD, situational or not, doesn't mean they're selfish. Some may be, but I wouldn't paint them all with that brush.


It depends on how they address it.

If they say, this is just your (the HD's) problem (which most seem to do), then that to me is selfish.

If they say, you know what, I don't personally care so much about this, but I know it is important to you, so I will do something about it, then they're not selfish.

The second scenario seems quite rare.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> In my case, and from discussions here I think it applies to some others as well, my wife simply does not understand that it is important -no matter what I say.
> 
> Last sunday, without prompting she said she was sorry she had been too busy to have sex. Other times she will apologize for being too tired, or ill, or something. I'm about to try again, but I seem unable to get her past:
> ...


Hey Richard-- all of that is BS.

The only thing that should matter to her is that it is important to YOU.

That's it.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> Hey Richard-- all of that is BS.
> 
> The only thing that should matter to her is that it is important to YOU.
> 
> That's it.


I agree, but only doing it as a favor to you, with her showing little interest is worse than not at all.

I think spouses should engage themselves "all in", physically & emotionally, even if you have to fake enjoying the heck out of it in order to give both spouses a pleasurable & closeness experience. Maybe it's just me, but my feelings are hurt worse with her doing it "just for me", rather than for the both of us.

I also agree with the statement that women should only do what they are comfortable doing, same with men, but I'm talking about variables like oral, anal, toys, S & M etc., not having sex. I hate meaningless excuses, too tired, yada yada, I'm glad my wife doesn't use any of them. I can tell by her emotions and actions what the outcome will be, before I initiate.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Hey Richard-- all of that is BS.
> 
> The only thing that should matter to her is that it is important to YOU.
> 
> That's it.


Richard could be describing my situation. I won't speak for him, but in my situation, my partner isn't willing to accept it is important to me because she considers it abnormal. It SHOULDN'T be important to me. There is more to marriage than just the physical aspect and she can't understand why I'm not happy with that. 

That fact that I'm not only illuminates that I'm not normal.


Copper


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Richard could be describing my situation. I won't speak for him, but in my situation, my partner isn't willing to accept it is important to me because she considers it abnormal. It SHOULDN'T be important to me. There is more to marriage than just the physical aspect and she can't understand why I'm not happy with that.
> 
> That fact that I'm not only illuminates that I'm not normal.
> 
> ...


I know I don't need to explain it to you, but this is backward thinking.

She doesn't get to decide what is important to you. You do.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

woundedwarrior said:


> I agree, but only doing it as a favor to you, with her showing little interest is worse than not at all.



Her showing little interest in something that is really, really important to you means that she shows little interest in YOU.

It really is that simple.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I know I don't need to explain it to you, but this is backward thinking.
> 
> She doesn't get to decide what is important to you. You do.





Anon1111 said:


> Her showing little interest in something that is really, really important to you means that she shows little interest in YOU.
> 
> It really is that simple.


I understand.

But I get the feeling from conversations past that she views it as an addiction. If she were to "give in" she would be enabling and encouraging my bad behavior.

As Warrior said, when she does give in, she is only there physically. That is worse than not being there at all.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I understand.
> 
> But I get the feeling from conversations past that she views it as an addiction. If she were to "give in" she would be enabling and encouraging my bad behavior.
> 
> As Warrior said, when she does give in, she is only there physically. That is worse than not being there at all.


There is her opinion (which is self serving) and there is objective reality. Wanting a healthy sexual relationship with your spouse is simply not analogous to an addiction. The suggestion doesn't event warrant a discussion.

Again, if she treats something so important to you (which is a normal drive) with disdain, she is showing lack of interest and lack of respect for you as a person.

If whenever she sought emotional support from you, you sat there reading the newspaper, never looked at her and just said "Uh, huh" and then acted like you checked the box she would reasonably conclude you had no interest in her.

It's the same thing.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Coppertop has made a really important point on this. I suppose I could tell my wife that I want sex of varieties A B and C, X times a week or I'll leave. Phrased politely I think she would do it. 

The problem is that I don't want her to suffer through servicing my needs. I want here to WANT a loving passionate relationship. I may be able to get her to DO things, but I don't know if I can get her to WANT things.

I will have a conversation with her at the next reasonable opportunity and try to make her understand.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Can you be satisfied with her wanting to please you?

What is more important-- her wanting the thing itself or wanting you?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> There is her opinion (which is self serving) and there is objective reality. Wanting a healthy sexual relationship with your spouse is simply not analogous to an addiction. The suggestion doesn't event warrant a discussion.


There is a phrase that I jokingly use to refer to situations like this. 

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." 
Adam Savage


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Can you be satisfied with her wanting to please you?
> 
> What is more important-- her wanting the thing itself or wanting you?


I could be satisfied with her doing it to please me. That is still giving of herself. 

But I can't be satisfied with her just providing a hole for my use. The attitude of "Fine. Just hurry up! Oh, and by the way, I resent having to do this so I'm going to be cranky for the next several weeks," is crushing.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> There is a phrase that I jokingly use to refer to situations like this.
> 
> "I reject your reality and substitute my own."
> Adam Savage


I get the joke, but not everything is subjective.

The proof is that there are billions of people who have no problem satisfying these needs.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I could be satisfied with her doing it to please me. That is still giving of herself.
> 
> But I can't be satisfied with her just providing a hole for my use. The attitude of "Fine. Just hurry up! Oh, and by the way, I resent having to do this so I'm going to be cranky for the next several weeks," is crushing.


That's not meeting the need. That's the equivalent to you reading the newspaper and going, "Uh, huh" whenever she tries to connect with you that I posted above. Absence of good faith.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> I will have a conversation with her at the next reasonable opportunity and try to make her understand.


If you manage to pull this off, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE message me and tell me how you did it!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> Coppertop has made a really important point on this. I suppose I could tell my wife that I want sex of varieties A B and C, X times a week or I'll leave. Phrased politely I think she would do it.
> 
> The problem is that I don't want her to suffer through servicing my needs. I want here to WANT a loving passionate relationship. I may be able to get her to DO things, but I don't know if I can get her to WANT things.
> ...


I agree with the bolded, and hope it works for you.

I have some issues with the other things you said. While I certainly would not want anyone to suffer servicing my needs, some needs are an expectation in marriage, as are some services and behaviors. It is not always necessary to want to do these things, if they are necessary to fill the "contract" that marriage creates.

I may not want to go to work or take out the garbage, but it is a reasonable expectation of the relationship, so I do them willingly if not "wantingly."


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Lila said:


> The bold statement is really the crux of most LD/HD relationships. I'm not in an unbalanced sexual relationship but I feel I can sympathize with your feelings Richard. I too would have a very difficult time accepting faked passion (for lack of a better word) even if it was being done enthusiastically for my benefit. I want to feel wanted by my partner. It's one of the reasons why I cannot support the "fake it till you make it" approach. It's not genuine.


Faking it also leaves the LD person with huge resentment over time. They stop being able to fake it with any enthusiasm, and it slowly devolves to "hurry up and get it over with because this sucks for both of us."


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I partially disagree with you about an LD spouse not being able to change, it's just that they don't want to and know they can get away without doing so. Sex isn't treated as a responsibility in marriage and it should be, it's really something that you can't opt out of. It should be agreed before you get marriage that there will be sex and if not you should have the ability to annul the marriage without oweing any payments, dividing property or any alimony being involved. Some people really like being able to control the amount of sex they "give" their spouse. If there were consequences involved in doing so, I think many of them would knock it off. 

It goes back to what I've said many times before about marital responsibilities, many times people go into marriages not acknowledging they do have responsibilities to each other, much like entering into a contract, if one party does not live up to their responsibilities in the contract, they technically break the contract and the two parties should then go back to the way things were before the contract, unmarried without anything due to each other.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
The concept of "wanting" something is tricky.

I enjoy giving my wife backrubs/ massages. It isn't that I get physical pleasure out of it. Sometimes my hands get tired etc. It is that I actively enjoy doing things that give her pleasure. It is just the way I am wired. 

Some people don't seem wired that way. They may be willing to do something they don't particularity like for a partner, but they view it as a "chore". 

I could take the very depressing viewpoint that the difference is love. That if you love someone you will enjoy making them happy - it will not feel like a chore.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> Sex isn't treated as a responsibility in marriage and it should be, it's really something that you can't opt out of.


Oh, hell no! Sex is not a responsibility; it's a joy and a pleasure. It's a joy and a pleasure that two people share. It is always, always voluntary, not a responsibility or chore.

And if it isn't a joy and a pleasure, no, I don't want my partner doing it as a chore nor would I want to do it as a chore. I would want to figure out why it stopped being a pleasure and a joy and go from there.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Have a very good friend who is LD. Of course when we were in college, we were interested in sex and guys and all that, but later in her marriage it was more for him then for her. It did not matter to her much. Then they divorced (for many reasons) and she is now in new relationship. She told me that now she is more aware how sex life is important and she tries more, invests in nice lingerie, etc.
She still is LD but she tries much harder now


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

norajane said:


> And if it isn't a joy and a pleasure, no, I don't want my partner doing it as a chore nor would I want to do it as a chore. I would want to figure out why it stopped being a pleasure and a joy and go from there.


You're assuming the partner knows themselves. I'm not sure my partner does. 

I sometimes feel she doesn't like to be intimate for the same reason I don't like brussel sprouts. There isn't any particular reason, I just don't. 

Yet, she loves them. No matter how she dresses up the brussel sprouts so that I will like them, I haven't found a way to like them yet.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

norajane said:


> Oh, hell no! Sex is not a responsibility; it's a joy and a pleasure. It's a joy and a pleasure that two people share. It is always, always voluntary, not a responsibility or chore.
> 
> And if it isn't a joy and a pleasure, no, I don't want my partner doing it as a chore nor would I want to do it as a chore. I would want to figure out why it stopped being a pleasure and a joy and go from there.


I agree - that's my basic perspective. If it isn't, then fix it.

If you can't fix it, and if it isn't a joy and a pleasure, then DIVORCE.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Richard, what does she do to show you her love? 
From your description you are the protector, the admirer, she just has to sit there on pedestal and smile nicely at you. You are taken for granted. And her expanations are just veryconvenient. She has comfortable secure life with her needs met and it does not sound that he cares that much about yours. Ask her that point blank: how much do you care that I am very unhappy man, that I do not feel loved by you . If you do not shake her world nothing will change. That's sad reality. Can she show passion? Does she feel it at all? Or she married a good man and is very content with her life?
I know this hurts and I know deep down you think about , you are too smart not to. But can you face it?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> Coppertop has made a really important point on this. I suppose I could tell my wife that I want sex of varieties A B and C, X times a week or I'll leave. Phrased politely I think she would do it.
> 
> The problem is that I don't want her to suffer through servicing my needs. I want here to WANT a loving passionate relationship. I may be able to get her to DO things, but I don't know if I can get her to WANT things.
> ...


If she WANTS a happy marriage, she will DO things that you want and she will do them with enthusiasm. However, if she can have a happy marriage without having sex (which is the current situation) then she'll choose that since it involves less effort.

Besides, she likes sex when it happens (as I recall) so it's not like she's going to be lying there saying "get it over with".

You can't make her WANT sex. You CAN ask her why she has so little interest in making you happy.

So, she's convinced that she shouldn't *have t*o have sex if she doesn't want to. Tell her she's absolutely correct. But inform her that you don't* have to *stay married to her if that's the choice she makes.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I cannot support the "fake it till you make it" approach. It's not genuine.


I think you're giving too much thought to the word "Faking".

Let's say you want to get in better shape. Should you just sit around waiting until you REALLY want to go to the gym because otherwise it's not "genuine". Or should you "fake it 'til you make it" which really just means make yourself do it until you start liking it (of course, if you never end up liking it, you can stop). There is no way I'd ever consider it fun to go to the gym these days. Back in the day, when I went all the time, it never occurred to me to skip it.

Quite often it turns out that the more sex you have, the more sex you want and I think that's the real idea behind "fake it 'til you make it".


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

norajane said:


> Oh, hell no! Sex is not a responsibility; it's a joy and a pleasure. It's a joy and a pleasure that two people share. It is always, always voluntary, not a responsibility or chore.
> 
> And if it isn't a joy and a pleasure, no, I don't want my partner doing it as a chore nor would I want to do it as a chore. I would want to figure out why it stopped being a pleasure and a joy and go from there.


I like this.:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lila said:


> OR, as appears more likely the case.....
> 
> ​
> I feel that unless you're having sex for the sake of having sex, knowing your partner is "faking it" would be hurtful to the person who wants genuine passion from their partner. Personally, my ego wouldn't be able to handle knowing that my husband didn't desire having sex with me but was going through the motions (minus the erection of course) just to keep me "happy". That is one bitter pill to have to swallow.


and that's the problem. Chances are before they start liking it, their resentment will grow and any chance of liking it will disappear.

By the same logic - the less you have it , the less you want it - should this be advise for HDs stuck in mismatched marraige? it does not seem to be working for them.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think the advise for mismatched marriages should be to give it an honest go at working together to address the issues that may be affecting the sexual relationship. If after exhausting all avenues, they're still not happy, then it's best to divorce.


From what I read on TAM, the LD spouse usually does not see the problem, so it is hard to work on this. Looks at richard's wife's excuses - becuase these are excuses.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,

There's a difference between a lower level of desire and no desire. 

If I was Richard the LAST thing I'd do is have some lengthy talk about how I feel and what I want / need her to feel for me. 

I would instead ask a single question, and tenaciously focus on that question until I had an answer. 

-------
Once we get started, how does it feel for you? 

1. Good (you're glad it's happening)
2. Ok (it's nice but not great)
3. Not so good (you're enduring it, waiting for it to be over)

I'd stick with that til I had an answer. Than based on that answer I'd go from there. 

And he sort of should already know the answer. 

If it's (1), this is fixable. If it's (2) he should try to find out why. 

If it's (3) after all these years, he has little chance of improvement.





Lila said:


> OR, as appears more likely the case.....
> 
> ​
> I feel that unless you're having sex for the sake of having sex, knowing your partner is "faking it" would be hurtful to the person who wants genuine passion from their partner. Personally, my ego wouldn't be able to handle knowing that my husband didn't desire having sex with me but was going through the motions (minus the erection of course) just to keep me "happy". That is one bitter pill to have to swallow.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Generalization:

I think the current culture (at least in the west) has promoted this idea that wives should dole out sex to their husbands like a treat and that there is a myriad of acceptable reasons to say no.

I think if you substitute "meeting emotional needs" for "sex" in any of these HD/LD conversations, then nobody would accept that these excuses are really valid.

In other words, there is some truth to the idea that sex has become "optional" in marriage.

I bet if you talked to people 100 years ago, such excuses would be seen as laughable.

For HD women married to LD (to make another generalization), this culture is arguably even worse because there is a built in assumption that husbands should generally be desperate for it. 

When a woman ends up being married to a man who does not fit this stereotype, it must be quite shocking and invite massive feelings of inadequacy.

In other words, it would solve a lot of problems (as was suggested above) if we would collectively decide that sex is totally mandatory in a marriage just as much as emotional support (to me, they are basically the same thing expressed in different forms).


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Your wife did have (more) frequent sex with you and she enjoyed it *when she was interested enough in your happiness to put forth the effort. *


Maybe she cared about his happiness. Maybe she wanted something from him badly enough to tolerate having sex with him. Once she got what she wanted, her tolerance for his advances waned. Once the kids arrived and the cost of leaving rose (for him), she could drop all pretense of desiring him.

You think she is ever going to admit "I had sex with you so you would marry me and have kids with me. Mission accomplished. No reason for me to keep having sex."? I predict she is not that stupid.

The stupid ones here are the guys like me who fall for the attractive woman who expresses interest in us. Who claims to appreciate the nice guy. But who stops having sex the day after the wedding. This is a tired trope. If a nice guy's wife stops having sex shortly after the wedding he should get the marriage annulled and move on. That is what the bad boy would do. Don't be sucked into the trap of giving it time and living up to your vows. She is counting on your conscience to keep you trying until the cost of exit is too high to pay. Don't fall for it.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Maybe she cared about his happiness. Maybe she wanted something from him badly enough to tolerate having sex with him. Once she got what she wanted, her tolerance for his advances waned. Once the kids arrived and the cost of leaving rose (for him), she could drop all pretense of desiring him.
> 
> You think she is ever going to admit "I had sex with you so you would marry me and have kids with me. Mission accomplished. No reason for me to keep having sex."? I predict she is not that stupid.
> 
> The stupid ones here are the guys like me who fall for the attractive woman who expresses interest in us. Who claims to appreciate the nice guy. But who stops having sex the day after the wedding. This is a tired trope. If a nice guy's wife stops having sex shortly after the wedding he should get the marriage annulled and move on. That is what the bad boy would do. Don't be sucked into the trap of giving it time and living up to your vows. She is counting on your conscience to keep you trying until the cost of exit is too high to pay. Don't fall for it.


Harsh truth.

Most people (women included) don't respect people who can't stand up for themselves.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,
We agree on that point. 

Because a (3) means that either she's been very deceptive (by pretending that she likes it), or he's been utterly clueless to her feedback signals. 

If she's been acting all along - by now sex is a very sore subject for her. If he's been clueless all along, it's an even more sore subject. 

It's obvious that Richard isn't clueless - it's not a 3. That was a more generic set of comments. 





Lila said:


> MEM,
> 
> I agree that asking that question is a great way to get the conversation started between a sexually mismatched couple but I don't agree with the assessment that a 3 means little chance of improvement. It could mean that the spouse is keeping tight lipped about something to save the partner embarrassment or hurt feelings. For example, the wife may not like the husband's sexual skills or the husband may not find the wife attractive anymore (weight gain is a common one). There's honesty and then there's HONESTY.
> 
> So having written my post out, I just talked myself out of my argument regarding 3. Someone's going to feel resentment one way or the other.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> Generalization:
> 
> I bet if you talked to people 100 years ago, such excuses would be seen as laughable.
> 
> ...


Not true Anon. 100 years ago LD wife would say "go away you old fool" and he would go to the ***** house. There were very popular back then. Or she would "endure" sex because that's what she was told by her mother. They were not supposed to be horny, they were supposed to be motherly and dignified. It is today's world that first accepted female sexuality, and then made horniness requirement of happy marriage.

You would not be complaining about your wife 100 years ago. You would not know you have a problem.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

100 years ago - there was no legal barrier to a husband forcing his wife. 

I personally wouldn't feel safe sleeping next to a woman I was forcing to have sex - but that's just me. 

And back then, if the H was a decent breadwinner, killing or badly injuring him might be a financial catastrophe for the family. 




WandaJ said:


> Not true Anon. 100 years ago LD wife would say "go away you old fool" and he would go to the ***** house. There were very popular back then. Or she would "endure" sex because that's what she was told by her mother. They were not supposed to be horny, they were supposed to be motherly and dignified. It is today's world that first accepted female sexuality, and then made horniness requirement of happy marriage.
> 
> You would not be complaining about your wife 100 years ago. You would not know you have a problem.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> 100 years ago - there was no legal barrier to a husband forcing his wife.
> 
> I personally wouldn't feel safe sleeping next to a woman I was forcing to have sex - but that's just me.
> 
> And back then, if the H was a decent breadwinner, killing or badly injuring him might be a financial catastrophe for the family.


I wonder whether what seems to be to common modern female fantasy about being dominated was so common back then.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> From what I read on TAM, the LD spouse usually does not see the problem, so it is hard to work on this. Looks at richard's wife's excuses - becuase these are excuses.


Pretty much, Wanda.

The LD spouse is living their life and everything is fine...

Meanwhile, the HD spouse is going out of their freakin mind! Climbing the walls and trying to figure out the issue to no end. Their life is broken, missing a massive part of their "being" 

How could the LD spouse comprehend this at all?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think the advise for mismatched marriages should be to *give it an honest go *at working together to address the issues that may be affecting the sexual relationship. If after exhausting all avenues, they're still not happy, then it's best to divorce.


But that's exactly the problem. In almost every situation posted on TAM, the LD partner is not giving it an "honest go". 

So, what do you do in that case?

There seem to be plenty of cases here where the wife enjoys sex when it happens but just doesn't feel like it very often. Either the wife is at fault for not caring about her husband's happiness or the husband hasn't gotten up the courage to actually express his dissatisfaction in a way that will prompt a response.

If every spouse gave resolving their marriage problems an honest go, there would be a lot more happy couples. 

The problem these days (and I hate to say "these days") seems to be that everyone believes that they are entitled to whatever they want without actually doing something to deserve it.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

The HD spouse in the marriage is expected not to have sex with anybody else outside of the marriage by the LD spouse. But the LD (or in my case ND, no desire) spouse seems to think it's perfectly acceptable to live a celibate life and enforce that on the other partner. There's something deeply wrong with this.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Is the source of the LDs adamant refusal to adequately deal with the issue because without exception, eventually the LD always ends up as a passive aggressive state out of necessity for the LD? 

Wikipedia quote of passive aggressive

Passive-aggressive behavior is the indirect expression of hostility, such as through procrastination, stubbornness, sullenness, or deliberate or repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible.

For research purposes, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) revision IV describes passive-aggressive personality disorder as a "pervasive pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for adequate performance in social and occupational situations".


The utter lack of LD willingness to fix the LD/HD issue sounds exactly like passive aggressive behavior to me. 

Destabilize the marriage. It works


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Lila
I'm flattered that you took enough time to read / remember my situation.

You are right, no children. It was not a bait / switch, its always like this. Why did we get married? - chalk it up to "young love" (we were 17 when we first met) and just assuming everything would get better.

I will talk to her at the next reasonable opportunity.

I could leave any time I want to - we are each independently financially secure. 3 years ago I was about to do that. Since then I think I've decided that I'd rather live like this than leave - but I'd much rather instead be in a passionate relationship. 




Lila said:


> You're making some pretty sweeping assumptions about Richard's life in your post. He and his wife have no children.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lila said:


> I think the advise for mismatched marriages should be to give it an honest go at working together to address the issues that may be affecting the sexual relationship. If after exhausting all avenues, they're still not happy, then it's best to divorce.



It woudl be ideal, but those couples are probably not on TAM, no reason. 

I am looking at UMP and richard, both with LD wives. But UMP's wife is meeting him in the middle. He actually has interesting thought on this in his latest thread, how his action lead to this. I think richards' "problem" is that his is so much in love, that he cannot shake her world.

Someone mentined "Bridges of ******* County" ealrier, and I think this is very relevant book/movie for this thread.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

What Are My Options said:


> Is the source of the LDs adamant refusal to adequately deal with the issue because without exception, eventually the LD always ends up as a passive aggressive state out of necessity for the LD?


I don't think so. In my experience, when I've been LD and had little innate desire for sex, actually having sex was both physically painful and emotionally crushing - it felt like a violation. So "just do it" absolutely made things a lot worse in that I completely lost desire to have sex and built up a boatload of resentment.

I've said that before, and people here don't want to hear it, but it's true.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

norajane said:


> I don't think so. In my experience, when I've been LD and had little innate desire for sex, actually having sex was both physically painful and emotionally crushing - it felt like a violation. So "just do it" absolutely made things a lot worse in that I completely lost desire to have sex and built up a boatload of resentment.
> 
> I've said that before, and people here don't want to hear it, but it's true.


I completely get it, I was there. But - if I can ask - when you were LD and had no desire - how were your feelings towards your partner? 

Because when I was LD it was because I was very resentful, and I had no good will to meet anyone half way. He was not meeting me halfway emotionally. 

The more we discuss that issue on TAM the more I belive that the LD partners is not that into their spouse. Thye do not care as much as they used, that's why they do not feel like they need to do anything.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> I completely get it, I was there. But - if I can ask - when you were LD and had no desire - how were your feelings towards your partner?
> 
> Because when I was LD it was because I was very resentful, and I had no good will to meet anyone half way. He was not meeting me halfway emotionally.
> 
> The more we discuss that issue on TAM the more I belive that the LD partners is not that into their spouse. Thye do not care as much as they used, that's why they do not feel like they need to do anything.


My LD phase was at the bitter end of a long dating relationship - we were engaged at the time and lived together, but we had issues. 

I've posted in the so-called Walk Away Wife thread that I tried talking (and writing and standing on my head...) to get him to work on those issues with me, but he never seemed to acknowledge or accept that we needed to work on those issues. I gradually started losing desire for sex with him, and that's when he became oh-so-perceptive and noticed we had problems, but he thought the only problem we had was that we weren't having enough sex and it was crappy sex. That's the problem he wanted to fix, yet still couldn't grasp that the issues I had been bringing up are what led to the lack of desire. 

It was just getting worse and worse until I didn't care about "us" anymore and I just wanted to stop crying and moping every day, so I found a new place to live and moved out.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Now most men come packaged with incredibly powerful 'mate protection' circuitry. I've got it. You've got it.
> 
> 
> 
> It prevents the intentional use of dread - as a tactic.



Good thing I'm not like most men in this aspect. I've short-circuited my MPC a long time ago.

When I joined TAM two years ago I opined that LD's fall into two categories - intentional and clueless (aka "evil" and "stupid" - kindly notice the quotes). Few are just one. Most are a mix. The more intentional the harder to address.

Sex is a great weapon and it's not a surprise many spouses wield it as such...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Lila
> I'm flattered that you took enough time to read / remember my situation.
> 
> You are right, no children. It was not a bait / switch, its always like this. Why did we get married? - chalk it up to "young love" (we were 17 when we first met) and just assuming everything would get better.
> ...


Richard- why not try separating for 6 months?

You might find it better, but if it is worse you could always go back.

Imagine finding a way to just be your wife's friend but to find a true lover too. If she is not willing to meet your need and truly loves you as you claim she should understand that.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> Richard- why not try separating for 6 months?
> 
> You might find it better, but if it is worse you could always go back.
> 
> Imagine finding a way to just be your wife's friend but to find a true lover too. If she is not willing to meet your need and truly loves you as you claim she should understand that.


I can relate, Richard.

You love your wife with your whole heart & although not sexually close to her, you still feel a bond. Separation would upset that bond, maybe good, maybe bad, but once it happens, you can't always cry "never mind" and just resume things the way they were.
You may need to push your wife a little bit harder into your direction. I think she knows that you will give up after a little resistance from her, so she doesn't have to focus on it too much? There is a fine line between trying to get her to understand and nagging & guilting her, but you don't want to be too passive all the time, make sure she knows that this is always on your mind & not just a passing thought every once in a while, that can easily be diffused.


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