# Alpha vs Beta



## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

What if you are a fairly cut up, buff beta with a good job, decent looking etc. Will you still lose women just because you are too nice?
What if being nice is really who you are? What if you are nice, but never compromise your principles and stay true to yourself? Are you then a mellow Alpha?
How about if you are rich enough and good looking enough , such that when you lose the woman due to being a Beta, you seem to have plenty of other options for female companionship? Would you still try to convert to Alpha?
Is being Alpha a pain in the ass and tiring?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I have no idea what you just said :rofl: I literally laughed out loud because I'm so exhausted, I had to read that 4 times and still didn't get it.

Awesome.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Was just wondering about all this while I was doing 150lbs dumbell curls. Off to the pose down, then to see my investment broker, then to feed the homeless.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Be who you are. I think it's generally assumed that nice guys aren't really nice guys, they are a wolf in sheep's clothing and the idea is to allow the wolf to get some play.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

My opinion is that if you know what you stand for in life, and do it in your marriage, without getting lazy about it, then if you lose her, she is a loser. Oh, and make sure that she knows what she stands for - its called integrity.

I'm an alpha type - I don't think people can just decide to be alpha, and no woman that hasn't already decided to be a cheater will cheat with an alpha.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

On the cheating, if you are Beta, you get it due to her loss of attraction, right. But, don't Alphas get the "contolling/abusive/emotionally neglecful" justification thrown at them?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I was with stbxw for 42 years, more joy and happiness than anything else. In my experience just being one thing, alpha, beta or whatever it is just doesn’t cut the ice. Plus people change and time changes people, so we’re never the same person at the end as when we started out, although it seems some change far more than others based on their actual willingness to change. Sometimes we just have to change our game/behaviour to successfully meet and overcome new challenges as they arise. And sometimes to stay in the game we have to change some fundamental core values, beliefs and rules deep inside our psyche because the ones we have quite obviously aren’t working for us.

For me a man has to wear many hats during the course of his marriage, the nurse, the nurturer, the bread winner, the defender, the decorator, the maintainer, the gardener, the leader, the protector, the motivator, the inspirer, the teacher, the tough lover, the host, the entertainer, the confident, the coach, the soul mate, the buddy, the friend, the lover, the romantic. Alpha/beta what on earth is that?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Extremes of either are non-productive in terms of nurturing a long term relationship. 

A healthy mix of both is what is required.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Arnold said:


> On the cheating, if you are Beta, you get it due to her loss of attraction, right. But, don't Alphas get the "contolling/abusive/emotionally neglecful" justification thrown at them?


When it comes to marriage, we all have to exist on a sliding scale when it comes to our mix of what people call alpha or beta traits. Maybe the labels only apply to the initial impression people throw off. There is no law that says a beta type can't be passionate in his love of his wife, so this dominance instinct in bed will keep her happy.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Arnold, it’s my contention and posit that if a wife or husband is a cheater then they will cheat. If they are not a cheater then they will not cheat. It has nothing to do with their partner being Alpha, Beta, Black, White, Chinese, German or anything else. Cheaters cheat. It’s what they do and it’s as simple as that.

Cheaters play the “You made me do it!” or “Look at what you made me do!” Game. In these cases it’s best to think of them and treat them the same way you would a seven year old because that’s exactly how they are behaving.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Arnold, it’s my contention and posit that if a wife or husband is a cheater then they will cheat. If they are not a cheater then they will not cheat. It has nothing to do with their partner being Alpha, Beta, Black, White, Chinese, German or anything else. Cheaters cheat. It’s what they do and it’s as simple as that.


Exactly. When the marriage falls down, some women and men roll up their sleeves, and work on the marriage. But when the going gets tough, cheaters cheat. They replace the missing love with instant gratification.

This is meant mainly for musing - just my own Friday opinion, so please, please take this with a grain of salt. Like many others, I tend to be a people watcher. Maybe I'm terrible at it. But look at just the types of personality traits that many of us equate to a person who would likely cheat, and ask yourself if it is you, the beta man who caused it, or the cheater:

Cheaters can be easliy manipulated in general. Talk to them, and you can change their belief on moral issues in one or two conversations. They can go to the store to buy the nice laptop that the two of you researched for four hours, but they'll come back with the ipad when a good friend tells them that it'll suit her needs better. They are often very sensitive, and can't stand to be told 'No'. Make an open comment, like, "Wow, that dress!" and they'll get emotional. They like to be 'in the in crowd', or if they are an introvert, they like to make sure that their feelings are considered in almost anything you do. And their ability to change a story on the fly is better than most. White lies are their expertise. They don't cope well at all with arguments that extend past a few days. They'll cut their losses.

Okay, enough of the Friday talk.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Extremes of either are non-productive in terms of nurturing a long term relationship.
> 
> A healthy mix of both is what is required.


Exactly. It's not a zero-sum game. You don't sacrifice Beta at the expense of Alpha, you develop both, and work most on the one at which you are weakest. Alpha builds strong sexual attraction and maintains sexual interest. Beta encourages comfort within the relationship. Too much Alpha, and yeah, you're an asshat. Too much Beta, and you're a Nice Guy. Either way, an extreme amount of one and a deficit in the other will cause you serious problems down the line. 

Being Alpha doesn't mean giving up being nice. It's controlling how and when you dispense your niceness, out of the grace of your heart and because you damn well feel like it. I've met plenty of nice Alphas who had huge charisma and dominated the conversation but did it through the strength of their presentation and personality, not by being asshats.

It also doesn't mean disparaging your valuable Beta traits. Your woman wants you to be a good nest builder. But if all you do is build and feather her nest, then her 'other' nest is going to start craving some Alpha. If you can't provide it . . . well, hilarity ensues.

The whole Alpha/Beta thing is a far more sophisticated concept than most men initially think. Don't think of it as single switch, but as dual controls: you can up the Alpha by being commanding, decisive, and resolute; you can up the Beta by being commanding, decisive, and resolute about what color to paint the bathroom. 

For a far better explanation and elucidation of this concept, I refer you to Athol Kay's excellent Married Man Sex Life blog and/or book. Best four bucks you'll spend in your life.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Halien said:


> Exactly. When the marriage falls down, some women and men roll up their sleeves, and work on the marriage. But when the going gets tough, cheaters cheat. They replace the missing love with instant gratification.
> 
> This is meant mainly for musing - just my own Friday opinion, so please, please take this with a grain of salt. Like many others, I tend to be a people watcher. Maybe I'm terrible at it. But look at just the types of personality traits that many of us equate to a person who would likely cheat, and ask yourself if it is you, the beta man who caused it, or the cheater:
> 
> ...


Well I don’t know about manipulating a cheater. But cheaters play all sorts of Unhealthy Games. There’s the Minimising the Affects Game where they say “We only kissed, I don’t know what you’re worried about it doesn’t affect you at all!”. There’s the Denial Game “What me, having an affair how could you think such a thing I’m not that type of woman!”. There’s the Blame Game/You made Me Do It Game/It’s All Your Fault Game “If you’d treated me right over the past 20 years I wouldn’t have had an affair!”. Etc.

I think when viewed as Games People Play we can truly see what’s going on. And I think this is because we take our emotional involvement out of the dynamics. And in that way we are like an observer of the interactions of the game as well as a participant, which for sure the Loyal Spouse is. In that way we are like one of our friends standing on the sideline watching it all go on and because they can see both participants in an unemotional way they have a greater understanding of what’s actually happening and why.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> Exactly. It's not a zero-sum game. You don't sacrifice Beta at the expense of Alpha, you develop both, and work most on the one at which you are weakest. Alpha builds strong sexual attraction and maintains sexual interest. Beta encourages comfort within the relationship. Too much Alpha, and yeah, you're an asshat. Too much Beta, and you're a Nice Guy. Either way, an extreme amount of one and a deficit in the other will cause you serious problems down the line.
> 
> Being Alpha doesn't mean giving up being nice. It's controlling how and when you dispense your niceness, out of the grace of your heart and because you damn well feel like it. I've met plenty of nice Alphas who had huge charisma and dominated the conversation but did it through the strength of their presentation and personality, not by being asshats.
> 
> ...


Yes. It’s Situationally Dependent. You be what the situation calls for.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Well I don’t know about manipulating a cheater. But cheaters play all sorts of Unhealthy Games. There’s the Minimising the Affects Game where they say “We only kissed, I don’t know what you’re worried about it doesn’t affect you at all!”. There’s the Denial Game “What me, having an affair how could you think such a thing I’m not that type of woman!”. There’s the Blame Game/You made Me Do It Game/It’s All Your Fault Game “If you’d treated me right over the past 20 years I wouldn’t have had an affair!”. Etc.
> 
> I think when viewed as Games People Play we can truly see what’s going on. And I think this is because we take our emotional involvement out of the dynamics. And in that way we are like an observer of the interactions of the game as well as a participant, which for sure the Loyal Spouse is. In that way we are like one of our friends standing on the sideline watching it all go on and because they can see both participants in an unemotional way they have a greater understanding of what’s actually happening and why.


What I was referring to was the types of characteristics that we tend to attribute to the kind of person who 'is a cheater at heart'. They may not cheat on you for years. And it was really a light-hearted approach of putting the guilty emphasis on the cheater, and not the person who was cheated on. They cheat because they are a cheater - but what amalgamation of mirrored traits actually make them a cheater??

There are plenty of people who claim that they can spot a cheater on their first date. This was what I was jokingly going for. I added the manipulation trait to a cheater because I've noticed that a few of the people I know who turned out to be cheaters seem to be missing a strictly defined sense of 'self'. They tend to mirror the traits of those they are in a relationship with, like the William Faulkner's 'A Rose for Emily'.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

For me, at this point in my life, it seems being a nice guy has only ever attracted "nice" women, but ones who have no qualities I actually find sexy. So not wanting to compromise my values means I will either be alone forever, decide to settle again for an unattractive woman or else maybe, an off chance that I will get lucky and somehow by pure chance be in the right place at the right time for a sexy woman who is also nice to be attracted to my kindness (despite my one-time-good-but-now-deteriorating looks). I guess it sometimes happens but is still pretty sad. I've begun cherishing my beta traits because I've found peace, but it is lonely and it seems I can't have that kind of peace and someone thrilling to share it with.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Being Alpha is not the opposite of being nice. People really need to look deeper into these theories before beggining to apply them.


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## Dave B (Nov 3, 2011)

I'd really like to believe that this kind of thing doesn't matter, but my wife strongly responds to what you're calling alpha behavior. Because we're married I have to mix it up a lot and give her some beta as well. But if I do that too much I definitely end up paying for it. But that doesn't mean every woman is like that or that every man should worry if he isn't acting a certain way all the time.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Yes, good stuff on that married man sex life site.
Here's a question: What is the feamle version of the straddling alpha/beta deal? What mix do they have to have to keep the man interested?


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## iDeal (Oct 25, 2011)

You seem to be comparing financial stability & good looks with love, care and respect...

Every "Alpha" will result to being a "Beta' <-- if that is how you class it, once they have met the right woman and wish to settle down and start being themselves.

The only difference between "Alpha" and "beta" is the label..


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

iDeal said:


> You seem to be comparing financial stability & good looks with love, care and respect...
> 
> Every "Alpha" will result to being a "Beta' <-- if that is how you class it, once they have met the right woman and wish to settle down and start being themselves.
> 
> The only difference between "Alpha" and "beta" is the label..


Well<ikeep reading that if you settled doown and become Beta, your wife loses interest in you. But, to me, being Beta is just more relaxing. I have to be Alpha in my profession. Iwant to take it easy at home.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

what if you drink mead from the severed skulls of your fallen enemies?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Lon said:


> For me, at this point in my life, it seems being a nice guy has only ever attracted "nice" women, but ones who have no qualities I actually find sexy. So not wanting to compromise my values means I will either be alone forever, decide to settle again for an unattractive woman or else maybe, an *off chance that I will get lucky *and *somehow by pure chance be in the right place at the right time for a sexy woman who is also nice to be attracted to my kindness *(despite my one-time-good-but-now-deteriorating looks). I guess it sometimes happens but is still pretty sad. I've begun cherishing my beta traits because I've found peace, but it is lonely and it seems *I can't have that kind of peace and someone thrilling to share it with*.


See, I don't go much for labels like 'alpha' and 'beta'. Means not much to me. 

But, I do go for men who have a strong character - men who have high values, high morals, who are confident in themselves, who are compassionate, who are not needy, but who can themselves know when the right time is to be vulnerable.

Lon, women will respond to those characteristics in you, more than anything else.

You sound like you are dejected because you are upset that there won't be some thrilling woman out there who will be able to fill up the empty, lonely void that you have.

So, start to fill up that void with 'yourself'. If you can do that, you may find that there is some high-quality woman out there who would be more than thrilled to be with a dude like that. But, YOU have to make it happen by engaging in and energizing your own life. It won't just be handed to you on a silver platter.

Best wishes.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

The above is true. Once I started to just pursue my passions and go my own way, women became more available. It's like you put off a vibe that you are happy and content to just be who you are. Thye seem to like that, and some view you as a challenge. The key seems to be putting yourself first, but not being a total jerk. Ad, you need to realize that there are just so many attractive women out there, that it is no big deal if a specific one is not interested.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> So, start to fill up that void with 'yourself'. If you can do that, you may find that there is some high-quality woman out there who would be more than thrilled to be with a dude like that. But, YOU have to make it happen by engaging in and energizing your own life. It won't just be handed to you on a silver platter.
> 
> Best wishes.


And if he’s not using his alone time to do just that then he’s surely wasting it.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I agree with Enchantment and AFEH. Lon, stop thinking of yourself as beta. You are who you are, and with time, you will find a woman who thrills you AND loves you for who you are. 

Many women rejected my husband in college because he is short. My gain! I saw him for who he is, a passionate, faithful man with a sense of adventure. I would not characterize him as alpha or beta. He makes an above average living, but he is not a leader. Best of all, he loves me for who I am. That is incredibly sexy to me.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> I agree with Enchantment and AFEH. Lon, stop thinking of yourself as beta. You are who you are, and with time, you will find a woman who thrills you AND loves you for who you are.
> 
> Many women rejected my husband in college because he is short. My gain! I saw him for who he is, a passionate, faithful man with a sense of adventure. I would not characterize him as alpha or beta. He makes an above average living, but he is not a leader. Best of all, he loves me for who I am. That is incredibly sexy to me.


Very nice to hear. You are a smart woman.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Runs like Dog said:


> what if you drink mead from the severed skulls of your fallen enemies?


Nobody ever accused the Vikings of being too beta ...


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Nobody ever accused the Vikings of being too beta ...


Eh, have you seen their record this year? Beta to the max(but, they are very sensitive).


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Nobody ever accused the Vikings of being too beta ...


As a Swede, I agree, unless you are talking about Norway. Har har.

I don't think there is such a thing as "true alpha" or "true beta". Of the people I have met that I would consider alpha, they have a lot of underlying issues and deep seeded insecurities so they project this tough guy exterior to mask their true selves. Of the people I have met that I would consider beta, their underlying issues are that they are filled was anger or rather turmoil in that they want rip open their shirts and beat their chests but they don't to keep the status quo. 

I don't think anybody is truly one or the other. They are a mix of both but they come across differently, depending on what they are hiding.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It's a cultural affect. Russians are quite badass when sober and maudlin and whiny and weepy when deep in the vodka. And so are the men. But my Sabra relatives - well let's just say they say Sabras don't have bad manners, they have NO manners. And don't EVER mess with a Sabra girl she will Krav Maga you. White non Boer South Africans have a veddy English sense of propriety. Stiff upper lip we can't have a riot wearing THESE clothes, can we? approach to things. But when the tough gets going, look out.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

As I've mentioned in a previous thread, I was once involved with a study of alpha dominant types, especially in the workplace. The professor once talked about some interesting aspects. It's not as much about empathy or compassion that distinguishes. Its more of a difference in thinking. The alpha side of the scale is, in this professors' opinion, a person who sorts the aspects of their life into a set of goals. These mental action plans equate to most elements of life: career progress, relationship growth, hobbies, interpersonal relationship. Natually, you look at most situations, judge them against your internal plan, and make a decision. 

This determined alpha might decide that some issues in a marriage should be dropped, some should be pushed agressively, and they tend to have a mental plan for a deeper sexual and emotional relationship.

The Reactive types just basically live life. They have higher level goals, but maybe don't constantly self-assess issues against those goals. They are more likely to let time slip. Let others make decisions. Yet, they seem more real, and respond to issues as the arise, but maybe just respond by delaying.

Just a thought. And it might help illuminate why the determined alpha is accused of playing games, when to them, it is just a basic, instintive way of thinking.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Being Alpha is not the opposite of being nice. People really need to look deeper into these theories before beggining to apply them.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I think a true Alpha can be very nice. Why? Because they can.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Yes, good stuff on that married man sex life site.
> Here's a question: What is the feamle version of the straddling alpha/beta deal? What mix do they have to have to keep the man interested?


A lady on the street and a freak in the bed. The song got that right.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> I agree with Enchantment and AFEH. Lon, stop thinking of yourself as beta. You are who you are, and with time, you will find a woman who thrills you AND loves you for who you are.
> 
> Many women rejected my husband in college because he is short. My gain! I saw him for who he is, a passionate, faithful man with a sense of adventure. I would not characterize him as alpha or beta. He makes an above average living, but he is not a leader. Best of all, he loves me for who I am. That is incredibly sexy to me.


Thanks for the wise words, LHM, AFEH and Enchantment. I agree the alpha/beta idea is just a model and not a complete one but it is pretty hard to ignore its predictive ability. I may sound like I'm labelling myself, and I do sometimes but I don't live with it, when I'm doing the things I want I could care less about labels, I can almost care less about having a mate, but I seriously doubt the small little void I have reserved for my mate can ever be filled in by my own virtues.

I am a work in progress at the moment, I'm sure a lot of my feelings are borne from the "rejection" I suffered, however there is a lifelong paradigm I'm trying to contend with, at times I have utmost confidence in myself, there have even been a few times where I've lead a cause but those times seem like they are fading from memory. I look at myself and see I do belong and have many great qualities, with some flaws, even big ones but I know everybody else has some too. I'm just frustrated at my track record so far... I have all these great qualities, most of my life I haven't questioned myself, but am stumped why it seems nobody else has perceived it, stumped at how to attract the right kind of woman. My looming divorce has awoken me somewhat, and I am now surprisingly disappointed with what I've done with life. It seemed like it was all on track, and then WTF happened? Did I change, or was it the world around me, like AFEH suggests, how have I wasted so much time not living.

I have no doubt I'll get on track again, I think I already am, and being aware of the alpha/beta thing is going to help me in my recovery even if it isn't a real thing.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

^ I think it all very natural what you are going through. When we meet, fall in love and get married what we see ahead of us is our “lifetime dream”. It’s probably for many of us our biggest dream ever. Other types of men may have different dreams and it doesn’t matter to them how many wives they have along the way.

All our objectives as men, our reasons for being are wrapped in that one dream. That dream was our food, our energy and our biggest, deepest and most consistent motivation. When that dream collapses and dies we lose our dream and become empty inside. I think in many ways we lose a massive part of us, physically it would probably be half of our body and sometimes maybe more. These things are by no means easy. I’m near two years out and I’m having one of the saddest of weekends, I keep telling myself it will pass but it hasn’t.

We just need to find something, some new calling. Our marriage was our calling, now it’s gone we need to find a new one. And perhaps we shouldn’t limit ourselves to thinking on that new calling, our new dream as being a new woman in our life. And I reckon once we’ve found our new calling and gotten deep along with it that a woman will turn up and join us in our new dream the one that we’re actually living.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> ^ I think it all very natural what you are going through. When we meet, fall in love and get married what we see ahead of us is our “lifetime dream”. It’s probably for many of us our biggest dream ever. Other types of men may have different dreams and it doesn’t matter to them how many wives they have along the way.
> 
> All our objectives as men, our reasons for being are wrapped in that one dream. That dream was our food, our energy and our biggest, deepest and most consistent motivation. When that dream collapses and dies we lose our dream and become empty inside. I think in many ways we lose a massive part of us, physically it would probably be half of our body and sometimes maybe more. These things are by no means easy. I’m near two years out and I’m having one of the saddest of weekends, I keep telling myself it will pass but it hasn’t.
> 
> We just need to find something, some new calling. Our marriage was our calling, now it’s gone we need to find a new one. And perhaps we shouldn’t limit ourselves to thinking on that new calling, our new dream as being a new woman in our life. And I reckon once we’ve found our new calling and gotten deep along with it that a woman will turn up and join us in our new dream the one that we’re actually living.


Bob, in all sincerity, I wish my husband would have thought as you did. I don't think he was ever "all in". I think he thought he "won" and like with any prize, you put it on a shelf and dust it off as needed. 
I am sorry you are having a tough weekend, as am I. Hurt runs deep, pain is hard to get over and scars never go away. They heal but the tell tale signs will always be there. 
I have often heard a saying that "Nobody can hurt a man as much as a woman can". I have never heard it in the reverse but I can attest that nobody has ever hurt me as much as my husband. I guess we should revise that to say "Nobody can hurt us as much as the ones we love". I think that is a fairer statement. 
As for your future, I know you struggle and are working towards it. I do see a great future for you. While you and I don't see eye to eye there are lots of things I admire about you and no doubt what other women admire in you. You are steadfast in your convictions. You stand up for what you believe in. You have a caring heart and passion. You see beauty and have often posted about Portugal. When I read about it, it takes my breath away. You are a proud Father and deeply admire your eldest son and what he has become. You wear your heart on your sleeve. 
I am sorry that you are struggling. Please know that this too will pass. It ebbs and it flows, if you will.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Lon said:


> I am a work in progress at the moment, I'm sure a lot of my feelings are borne from the "rejection" I suffered, however there is a lifelong paradigm I'm trying to contend with, at times I have utmost confidence in myself, there have even been a few times where I've lead a cause but those times seem like they are fading from memory. I look at myself and see I do belong and have many great qualities, with some flaws, even big ones but I know everybody else has some too. I'm just frustrated at my track record so far... I have all these great qualities, most of my life I haven't questioned myself, but am stumped why it seems nobody else has perceived it, stumped at how to attract the right kind of woman. My looming divorce has awoken me somewhat, and I am now surprisingly disappointed with what I've done with life. It seemed like it was all on track, and then WTF happened? Did I change, or was it the world around me, like AFEH suggests, how have I wasted so much time not living.
> 
> I have no doubt I'll get on track again, I think I already am, and being aware of the alpha/beta thing is going to help me in my recovery even if it isn't a real thing.


Lon, I agree that its not an alpha or beta thing. Now, you are realistically assessing what went wrong, and asking good questions, and should continue to do so, as long as the answer points back to who you really are. You might see things that you could've done to improve the relationship, despite the fact that your wife made horrible choices. But the answer isn't to be something different, the answer is to have the courage to do what your heart tells you, I believe.

When you hit a place where the self judgement ends, and you are ready to move forward, you'll hear a little voice that points you to what 'the new Lon' should do in each situation. You have to start listening to that voice. Throw away the fear, and just do it. Eventually, that voice will be a loud roar that guides you.

You see, men who coast to a life with little passion and little alpha lose the ability to hear that inner voice. That voice is the pure 'Lon'. It describes your personal statement on integrity, compassion, empathy, and even when you should move boldly in life. Too many "beta" types are just people who have lost the passion and courage to hear that voice. We settle for drifting through life instead.

Sorry for my translated version of my grandmother's Native American concept of the inner spirit. Its so hard to describe. But it is situational. If you see a woman who you would like to introduce yourself to, this inner spirit will be behind the idea, telling you to take a bold step. Or, if you are in a relationship where your partner is settling for less, the inner voice will tell you that the previous tendency to delay is wrong. It is inside there already. I hope you find it. I hope you just make it your goal, instead of alpha or beta.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Halien, you sound just like my IC. And I agree! I'm starting to realize I haven't really heard that voice since very early childhood and have long forgotten what it even sounds like. I think waking up to discover I had completely forgotten that voice you speak of has been the biggest grief I've felt through all this. And my biggest fear is that the voice left and is not coming back, but I'm at the point in therapy and my NMMNG recovery where I am starting to trust it has been there repressed all along, now its just up to learning how to decipher it again.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Lon said:


> Halien, you sound just like my IC. And I agree! I'm starting to realize I haven't really heard that voice since very early childhood and have long forgotten what it even sounds like. I think waking up to discover I had completely forgotten that voice you speak of has been the biggest grief I've felt through all this. And my biggest fear is that the voice left and is not coming back, but I'm at the point in therapy and my NMMNG recovery where I am starting to trust it has been there repressed all along, now its just up to learning how to decipher it again.


Well, if it helps, we can hear it in your posts loud and clear. It comes out as a person who has a passion for the struggling man, accepting. A caring person with a good sense of right and wrong. Add a humble sense of humor, too. Traits that anybody will envy.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Halien said:


> Well, if it helps, we can hear it in your posts loud and clear. It comes out as a person who has a passion for the struggling man, accepting. A caring person with a good sense of right and wrong. Add a humble sense of humor, too. Traits that anybody will envy.


Yep, thanks for the support, I realize it when I am in my writing persona, that the voice is usually there. I'm the real keyboard warrior, for me its a matter of bringing out with me into the live world.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

At this point, my understanding of the whole deal with the alpha is that i just need to put aside all the messages I got about appeasing my wife, compromising my values,and, in general, trying to keep the peace.
To me, the key seems to be to have the willingness to lose the wife if push comes to shove. I should always remain true to myself and let the chips fall where they may. If that alienates her, too bad.
I was so alpha in many regards. Very good, competitive college athlete and successful litigator. But, for some reason, I thought that keeping peace at home required me to capitulate on a lot of issues where, in fact, I was eminently more qualified to make the decison than my XW. This got us into a lot of trouble, finanacially, as she spent without regard to our means, and I stood idly by.
The dilema for me was that iIwanted my wife to be a mature, rational person as regards these decisons of her own volition, vs my having to impose sanctions or restrictions. I felt I had enough children to direct without having to take on a spouse as yet another child.
In the furue, if I ever have another relationship, I will never compromise my values, thinking that doing so will keep the peace. It does not ,as the person acting out seems to , on some unconcious level, want to be reeled in. It is just unfortunate that it seems that so many women I have met want this daddy figure vs a partner.


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