# Adrenalin Junkie repackaged as Lamp creates desire impasse; Perel vs Gottman



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

TL;DR warning

My wife may be a Perel person, an Adrenalin junkie passing herself off as a sheep.

At our sex therapist's request, my wife and I have been reading "Come As You Are". It is not light reading; my wife couldn't get through it on her own, constantly bogging down, so we began reading it together. It took a very long time to feel like we were getting someplace. Then, Chapter 7, "Desire", and O.M.G. It may have little to do with my wife's shame & trauma after all.

Starting on page 239, Emily Nagoski talks about Perel advocating for a bit of dangerous distance, a dissonance almost, things that increase risk and create excitement. Vs Gottman's view of sexual desire coming from a place of trust, intimate conversation, affection & friendship. OK, interesting views...

The on page 245 "Arousing the One Ring"- Nagoski says this, essentially in support of Perel's thinking, as one path to desire-
“Arousal. Generic, heart-thumping, hard-breathing activation of the central nervous system, because (in part) of the hedonic One Ring of the brain. Strategy 1: Stuff That Raises Your Heart Rate…. Do whatever excites you, whatever literally gets your heart beating faster. You’ll experience general arousal, and your brain will notice your level of excitement, notice the person you’re with, and decide, “Hey, I guess this person is really exciting!”​
*Just edited the rest to put in a light-colored text because it was distracting from the question of Perel vs Gottman. I wanted to see a general debate dealing with the two, not a discussion of how messed up I am. That's old news. I included my own stuff so I could provide context. That was dumb. It became all about me rather than the general question. My bad. I'm a distraction from Perel vs Gottman. If I could delete everything and start over I would, but that would defeat the purpose of my life serving as a warning to others. *
O.M.G. I'm a Gottman-type-of-guy and my wife is an Adrenalin junkie. This is a model that is consistent for each of us from beginning to now, for my wife from the time before we met. It is counter-intuitive because my wife is not an active person, would rather sleep than exercise, complains about anything physical. But it explains why things worked before she met me, and since then everything died during our first time sex, except during our no-chance-to-take-a-breath vacations. Because despite her relative lack of activity she is, in fact, an adrenalin junkie. Deep down inside she needs heavy and constant stimulation to keep her interest in terms of sex. Not sexual stimulation. That’s the key thing here. Her desire comes from a heightened state of awareness, ie adrenalin.

I mistakenly thought desire would be created by doing nice things for her. And so have been constantly disappointed when traditional nice things, things that you’d believe would turn off the brakes and push on the accelerator, would pretty much always fall flat. Dinners, projects, flowers. The Kimono. Flirty texts. PDAs. Telling her I love her. Nope. And there’s been no feeling of increased desire before or after the vacations either. Just during, just when she’s really being pushed. The same days where she might be complaining about how exhausted she is are the best for desire.

Before we met it was all about guys climbing through her bedroom window, sneaking out against her dad’s permission, meeting up in a boyfriend’s room, beer. It's all forbidden, heart-pounding risk & adrenalin! New things and non-stop excitement! She complained about several really nice guys but were “too slow” for her. It's about adrenalin fueling desire. Even cheating on a boyfriend. Adrenalin.

And then came me. She had recently moved out from home; no risk of being caught or told what to do by her parents. And I’m s-l-o-w (cautious and respectful). It's 7 months with me before full intimacy vs 3-4 weeks. She sees that I’m different and changes her story to one of relative innocence, erasing all the past adrenalin-driven events. There’s some excitement as we cross each rung on the ladder of increasing intimacy, but that final bridge?

That final bridge is such a milestone that its previous crossings removed the last of the adrenalin from it for her. When desire is fueled by adrenalin, and the fuel is missing, what happens next seems totally reasonable.

My strengths are loyalty, patience, kindness, and, over the past 15 years, a huge increase in attention to her care and meeting needs. That she loved me then, and now, is without question. She saw loyalty, patience, kindness as more important to her than thrill-seeking. But those things, as important as they are for her, do nothing for desire, because while those things fuel a sense of love, they don’t feed her desire engine. I am just not that exciting a guy.

There are alternative means to desire aside from adrenalin, but the Gottman ideology doesn’t do anything for her (too bad, because I’m clearly a Gottman type of guy). I feel like there’s been a revelation, a credible belief that my wife does have desire under the right circumstances. She’s not broken in that regard. Can our relationship be saved by switching to a different mode? Because sex without desire… I can’t handle that, I’ve had 42 years of that and it's not going to continue. But this gives me hope. My wife has read this and it feels very real to her. That is a first. It may not be about shame or trauma after all. Tomorrow we'll be seeing our sex therapist and go over this. My biggest fear is that my wife will hold back on her feelings, won't talk about boredom and lack of excitement because she doesn't want to hurt my feelings. Film at 11.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think you can analyze and analyze and analyze this woman till you are blue in the face and she's still not going to be able to participate in a _mutually_ satisfying sexual relationship.

A man should be able to have a wife who desires him to an average degree, and cares about meeting HIS SEXUAL NEEDS without needing _extreme adrenaline_ events. It's not reasonable, realistic, or sustainable. 

I think you have analysis paralysis, you don't want to face the truth.

I've never heard of a man who has to work so hard at psychologically and sexually analyzing his wife. It makes me say...yikes.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I think you can analyze and analyze and analyze this woman till you are blue in the face and she's still not going to be able to participate in a _mutually_ satisfying sexual relationship.
> 
> A man should be able to have a wife who desires him to an average degree, and cares about meeting HIS SEXUAL NEEDS without needing _extreme adrenaline_ events. It's not reasonable, realistic, or sustainable.
> 
> ...


I totally get where you're coming from. Thank goodness for TAM, where I can torture people here instead of my wife. I do appreciate and thank everyone here for that. It does at times feel like throwing darts badly.

*A man should be able to have a wife who desires him to an average degree, and cares about meeting HIS SEXUAL NEEDS without needing extreme adrenaline events. It's not reasonable, realistic, or sustainable.*​​I couldn't agree more. That's where tomorrow's session will go. It will be a major change getting away from shame & guilt though. It's also nice to think there's an option beyond "She's just not that into you." As for not wanting to face the truth, I would flip that on its head. I think we're going through all this with the goal of my wife facing the truth. She's strung things along endlessly, hoping to stall things out until they die, thinking she can get past this without change. I believe, wishful thinking sure, that there is something here for her therapists to deal with. Something she might embrace rather than push back on. And pushing back means ignoring, not actually doing anything.

BUT- what about the premise in general? Take me out of the equation.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Casual Observer said:


> TL;DR warning
> 
> My wife may be a Perel person, an Adrenalin junkie passing herself off as a sheep.
> 
> ...


A few thoughts and a few hard questions/discussions.

You sound like a really Nice Guy. That isn't a complement. To understand what a Nice Guy is you need to understand what Glover is talking about in his book NMMNG. The dinners, flowers, nice things, project that fall flat sound like covert contracts as explained by Glover. My wife could read my covert contracts a mile away. She would look at me and tell my I was doing something only to get in her pants. I had to change my way of thinking and do things for the reason that I thought it would make her happy and really expect nothing in return. My gifts had to be statements of unconditional love.

Your post is very interesting and sure explains the "bad boy" theory of what women find sexually exciting. Perhaps asking your wife with the help of your ST, what are some of the "bad boy" things you could do that might make her more excited to engage in sex with you. I found that running, hunting, mountain climbing and endurance events and doing well in them changed my wife's view of me. Ask if there are things that you initiated in the past that made you seem like a bad boy, the type she obviously had an attraction to. Ask if you put a blanket up over the garage window, closed the garage door and had sex with her in the back seat of your car, if she would feel that would spice things up? Alternately, how about role playing that you and she are at her parents home and try to have sex quietly so her parents don't hear and break down the door. Pretend she just ovulated and is really horny but you have no birth control and she is afraid of getting pregnant. Ask the ST if they have any such "bad boy" role playing the two of you could do and discuss some of the options with your W and ST.

A tough question for your W and the ST that gets to the heart of the lack of desire. Did your W "settle" on you as a husband or did she really "want" you. If she settled on you as good enough, you need to know that, as you probably can never get the desire you are looking for, unless she really works very hard at changing herself or she learns to "fake it" and you can settle for an illusion of sexual desire. You might also want to discuss that with your W and ST. As to learning desire, I am a big fan of affirmations or self-hypnosis. Having your W meditate by closing her eyes, listening to gentle music or nature sounds and then visualizing and saying out loud how beautiful your body is, how much she loves the feeling of your P in her V, how much she needs to feel the warmth of your naked body against hers can help her rekindle desire, again discuss with W and ST. Ask the ST for some role playing exercises or affirmation exercises that each of you can do separately or together..

Those are some ways to "switch" your relationship to a different mode. All of the changes are either ones you need to make to change yourself or she needs to make to change herself. 

Finally after 42 years you say you can't handle sex without desire. What changed in you? Are you really serious about this change. Do you think that your W fully understands that something changed within you that makes the lack of desire a marriage deal killer? Is it really a deal killer? What if through role playing, minor changes on her part she provide you with either some real sexual desire or an illusion of sexual desire could you handle remaining being married. Again a good topic for you, your W and the ST.

Good luck.

P.S. Are there any things your wife might view as not being sex, but you would view as "sex-like" that she would not be against doing with you. There are lots of people who enjoy the endorphin and adrenolin release followed by after care of sex like things (power exchanges, domination, bondage, spanking, etc.). And some of those things can involve a lot of desire on the part of both in the activities. Again a great discussion topic for you, your W and your ST.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> Because sex without desire… I can’t handle that, I’ve had 42 years of that and it's not going to continue.


Hmmm... I hope you appreciate that the way you behave, drives the sex life you have.

I mean men like you, who are all so sexually accommodating and cautious/hesitant. Simply aren’t the kind of men who get a kaleidoscope of sexual acts and desire from women.

There’s a vast difference between a man who says: “I don’t want to pressure you into giving me oral sex, we’ll do it when you’re ready”. Versus a man who says: “Stick it in your mouth, you’ll like it, but you might smudge your lipstick.”

The former is the kind of man, who tends to experience getting oral sex quite infrequently if ever at all. While the latter kind of man, seldom lacks for oral sex very often at all. And on and on it goes, whatever the act.

Which is why in my sexual experience, most women are very sexual animals with an extraordinary desire for sex. Who are keen to give oral sex (swallowing & facials+), keen to receive anal sex, keen to have sex as opportunities present in public places and are happy to let a man pee in their mouth. And I’ve had all of that and plenty more with several women.

Given who you are, in many ways I think you should be grateful for what you get sexually. Since absent you behaving significantly differently, your sex life is not likely to differ significantly for the longer term whoever you are with.

And by the way, when I was a teenager I did climb through girls windows to have sex with them. Amongst a variety of ways that they and I, went out of our way to have enormous amount of sex at any opportunity. Yet I certainly don’t consider myself a “bad boy”

At the end of the day if you want an exciting sexual relationship, you will need to be a partner who does sexually exciting things. To expect more from less, is a fool’s errand.

Likewise contemplating your wife’s and your own naval to the nth degree is not how to create a rich sex life.

If you think dozens through thousands of hours of counselling can generate high sexual desire from anyone, I have lots bridges that I would be happy to sell you.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Truthfully? No surprise there. And she’s far from alone in that. That‘s why sex very often goes stale in marriage. So people seek to recreate that “new” feeling with alcohol and drugs and any number of other solutions — like cheating. Boredom with sameness is all too common in married sex.

Humans obviously had sex long before marriage came along. And they didn’t necessarily mate for life for all those millennia. They probably didn’t have time to get bored with the sameness of one person. Connection for some is much less important than excitement of the new — whatever it may be.

None of this is a secret. It’s well known that it’s very important for most to keep excitement in your sex life. And if you don’t, well, you will likely end up with a wife/husband who, at minimum, doesn’t look forward to sex. They may not really know what they want but they do know what they don’t want. Boredom. Boredom. Boredom.

All that stuff you’ve done for her might make her feel safe and secure on one level but it’s not going to make her desire you. For that you need excitement. That’s why she responds differently on vacation. She’s not bored.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

So, regarding Perel vs Gottman...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> So, regarding Perel vs Gottman...


Yawn.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm an excitement junkie. Well, certainly not anymore at my age. But I definitely was. I was not cut out or at least never met the right person that made me think I could really do a long-term relationship. Sure, I had the urge at times, but looking back, I don't see how it ever would have worked. My relationship with the most important guys just turned into something else over time. But it didn't happen while we were together at least. It was usually something more cataclysmic than simple boredom. 

I don't see how anyone could recreate the scenarios that you have after you know someone that well and have been together so long. 

Iggy Pop said it best for me:
"When things get too straight, I can't bear it.
I'm feeling stuck, stuck on a pin. 

I'm trying to break in
Oh, I know it's not for me
But the sight of it all
Makes me sad and ill
That's when I want
Some Weird Sin
That's when I want
Some Weird Sin
Just to relax with
Yeah, some dumb, weird sin
For a while anyway
With my head on the ledge
That's what you get out on the edge
Some Weird Sin"


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Personal said:


> Yawn.


So my personal life is more interesting than Perel vs Gottman's view of keeping desire going in an LTR? Wow!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> So, regarding Perel vs Gottman...


If you feel you’re the Gottman type and she’s the Perel type (whatever those types may actually be — not everyone focuses on their differing views or, quite honestly, cares)? And you’re the one who really wants change? Then you’ll be seriously changing. She married you for stability and safety and likely other “good” reasons. But desire was not part of that and nothing you did over the decades made her desire you. If you want that from her then you have more work to do than you thought. Because it’s just as much about you as it is about her.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> So my personal life is more interesting than Perel vs Gottman's view of keeping desire going in an LTR? Wow!


Everyone‘s relationship is different. Both of them may help some people but not others.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Many women are brought up (or certainly were in my generation) to believe that men have very fragile egos and to try to avoid hurting their feelings if possible — especially sexually. So, yes, it’s very likely she’s not going to willingly discuss in detail the level of boredom and lack of excitement she may feel without the help of your therapist. But that’s why you have one.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

The thing is, talking about it's not going to change it, so why gouge someone like that. They've been together so long, they know who they're dealing with.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay @Casual Observer ... you want to discuss Perel vs. Gottman. To what outcome? I mean, if every single one of us agreed that Gottman was right and that was true and real love, and Perel was wrong and that is just fake, impermanent love, it wouldn't make any difference is your wife is a Perel lover. 

OR

We could discuss her vs. you, which as you've indicated is no help because you think she is messed up and she thinks you are messed up and everyone thinks everyone else is messed up. LOL I don't see that that would make any difference in your wife and you either! 

May I suggest an alternative? Up to this point, I highly suspect your wife did NOT KNOW and did not have vocabulary to even begin to talk to you about her own sexuality. In ways that I don't understand but feel like I can kind of relate to, it was a taboo subject as a young girl, a thrill she felt was sinful as a young woman, and in the end it affected her perception of sex, sexuality and enjoying sex. You have your own issues and I leave you to them, but as much as you knew "this is not what I want and is not acceptable to me" there still was not vocabulary or even understanding of sexual theory enough to be able to discuss with her what you did or did not want, what you thought was or was not love, what you thought was or was not sexual, etc. 

NOW you two have both the vocuabulary and some understanding of sexual theory to be able to learn about yourselves and share yourselves. She just is not and never will be YOU...and you just will not and never will be HER. So instead of putting the two of you against each other "Perel vs. Gottman" style...what if it was the two of you against "The Problem"? And as a team, you now have vocabulary to say "Gosh when I think about it, I think I am that adrenaline rush arousal type" and have your TEAM MATE understand what that term means!! 

And what if instead of trying to think of it like "She has to learn to feel sexual when I do Gottman things"... what if you said "I accept you as a Perel lover. I am not sure I can swing from the chandelier every time we have sex, but I can open my mind to try to do something that gets your blood racing. Will you join me by telling me one thing that got your blood racing in the past? Maybe we can recreate that kind of energy." In other words accept her arousal style and share with her YOUR arousal style. Give her tools to learn your way, just as you care about her enough to learn her way. 

Plus, are you suggesting that Gottman is saying "Love is caring and friendship and emotional connection and that leads to hot sex"? Or that Perel is saying "Hot sex only comes from lust, adrenaline and raw attraction"? See, that's too simplistic. It's not "either-or" but glean from each that which resonantes for you and LEARN what resonates for your partner.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Many women are brought up (or certainly were in my generation) to believe that men have very fragile egos and to try to avoid hurting their feelings if possible — especially sexually. So, yes, it’s very likely she’s not going to willingly discuss in detail the level of boredom and lack of excitement she may feel without the help of your therapist. But that’s why you have one.


I actually brought this up with my wife. She's avoided saying anything that she thinks might be unsettling to me, which is a problem because the therapist doesn't hear her say she's bored with this or that. I suggested that she should have some time separately with the sex therapist to open up about EVERYTHING without looking at me for a reaction.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> I actually brought this up with my wife. She's avoided saying anything that she thinks might be unsettling to me, which is a problem because the therapist doesn't here her say she's bored with this or that. I suggested that she should have some time separately with the sex therapist to open up about EVERYTHING without looking at me for a reaction.


I think that’s an excellent idea,


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Dude .... that sounds like so much mind draining work. It’s like almost causing the exact opposite of building sexual tension.... it’s more like beating it away with a stick.

I think my wife would be livid if I drug her through all that mess and she likely would lose ALL interest in sex.

In my OPINION I would give something like this a time frame. If you aren’t seeing results quick then it would be best to accept that she isn’t the right person for your sexual desires.

In some ways it is unfair that it is always seen that the lower drive partner is the one that needs to be “fixed”. Much simpler to find one that actually wants you.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> So my personal life is more interesting than Perel vs Gottman's view of keeping desire going in an LTR? Wow!


Yawn, as in I find what they both preach to be largely superfluous. It isn't all about you.

Of which now that you mention it, you and your wife can read an enormous library of books on the subject. Yet such reading simply won't make your wife actually desire you more sexually. So this is just another exercise in futility on your behalf of wanting to fix your wife, so that she desires you sexually.

Yet with respect to sexual desire, your wife isn't broken. Since you have never behaved like a man that can generates and maintain significant sexual desire in a sexual relationship. So how can she possible desire you in the way you wish sexually, when you have never lived up to being a man who warrants such desire.

At the end of the day it baffles me, as to why you still insist upon barking up the wrong tree to no end.

I mean sure I get it, since you're protecting your ego. Yet your ego has never gotten you much sex. So protecting it in this instance doesn't help you, unless none of this is really about getting your wife to desire you sexually in the first place.

Seriously at 42 years in, when are you going to do yourself a favour and finally look at yourself in the mirror and realise that your approach to sex is antithetical to generating high desire in sexual relationships.

While ever you continue to want to fix your wife. You ignore the colossal elephant in the room called you, which relentlessly drives her lack of sexual desire.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The thing is, talking about it's not going to change it, so why gouge someone like that.


Well in the absence of sexual desire, I guess some men feel they are entitled to take a piece of flesh from their spouse instead.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Personal said:


> Yawn, as in I find what they both preach to be largely superfluous. It isn't all about you.
> 
> Of which now that you mention it, you and your wife can read an enormous library of books on the subject. Yet such reading simply won't make your wife actually desire you more sexually. So this is just another exercise in futility on your behalf of wanting to fix your wife, so that she desires you sexually.
> 
> ...


I think your post is a bit harsh.

In the here and now...I think anyone COs wife would be attracted to enough to _naturally desire_ to have regular, mutual sex with is someone that would be a thousand times out of her league. I also think anyone she would care enough about to _naturally desire_ to meet his sexual needs on a regular basis even if she wasn't in the mood is also a thousand times out of her league. 
.
I think nothing is going to change her and that he could find a different partner who actually wanted to have sex with him.

I also think he's never going to do that, he's never going to end this marriage.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I think your post is a bit harsh.
> 
> In the here and now...I think anyone COs wife would be attracted to enough to _naturally desire_ to have regular, mutual sex with is someone that would be a thousand times out of her league. I also think anyone she would care enough about to _naturally desire_ to meet his sexual needs on a regular basis even if she wasn't in the mood is also a thousand times out of her league.
> .
> ...


I think he's old enough not to be mollycoddled, and his style really isn't conducive to generating what he wants.

That said I concur with you on your assessment of her.

Plus if (and it requires the if) CO addresses his enormous role in his own lack of sex life, he might (although I think it is unlikely) be able to enjoy a better sex life with someone else going forward.

I also agree that all of this effort won't make her desire him sexually at all. And will as time goes on make her resent sex with him even more, given the hoops she is already having to jump through to absolutely no end.

As to will he divorce her, I'm not sure. Although I lean towards his fear of pulling the pin, is far greater than his desire to have a great sex life. I mean after 42 years and he's still sucking it up!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@Casual Observer,

As long as you’re interested in this line of inquiry, what are some things you can actually try to get her adrenaline flowing, and find out very concretely whether it helps?

Maybe drive across state lines (depending), buy some pot (legally), get a hotel room, light it up and **** her on the balcony?

Whatever you try, don’t frame it as doing something to see if it “fixes” her desire. Frame it as an experience you want to personally have.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I wonder if some behaviors like badminton (lol, I typed bsdm) or role playing tend to get the adrenaline flowing.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

It's Perel with a sprinkling of Gottman that works the best in pre M and in M experience personally that provides a highly charged sexual relationship and high frequency. Observed in my life and my friends both male and female. 

That addresses the question I believe. 

And at one point in my life I tested these same parameters consciously and reached this conclusion. 

The right mix is your goal.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

??? Okay, I'm a woman and these responses about pumping up the adrenaline are from men.

I think the missing link is that usually when couples do these things, it's COUPLES who do these things. It's not all the man having to do the work and stand on his head arranging these scenarios just so he can have sex with has wife. A man can pick up when his partner is into these things, or not. . 

From what I've read..... She has never put out signals that she's in interested in SEXUAL adrenaline sexcapades.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your wife has told you what lights her fire: vacations (away from the kids) and getting your adult kids (20s-30s) out on their own. You absolutely refuse to kick the kids out of the nest because you like having them around even though they both work for you.

I don't blame your wife for not wanting to be intimate with a man who thinks so little of her wants and desires for her life. She feels stuck and feeling stuck is not conducive to a good sex life. You are as much of the problem if not more than she.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Honestly, I think this is just chasing down another rabbit hole leading absolutely nowhere.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Your wife has told you what lights her fire: vacations (away from the kids) and getting your adult kids (20s-30s) out on their own. You absolutely refuse to kick the kids out of the nest because you like having them around even though they both work for you.
> 
> I don't blame your wife for not wanting to be intimate with a man who thinks so little of her wants and desires for her life. She feels stuck and feeling stuck is not conducive to a good sex life. You are as much of the problem if not more than she.


I disagree. From the first moment they had sex decades ago, SHE WAS NOT into it. 

It's not just adult children living in the home.

And I don't know many people who can be on permanent vacation.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I disagree. From the first moment they had sex decades ago, SHE WAS NOT into it.
> 
> It's not just adult children living in the home.
> 
> And I don't know many people who can be on permanent vacation.


She was into it before 'the MOMENT'. Who knows what happened during. But, the truth is she has been bored her whole marriage and having kids constantly around has not provided an opportunity to develop the sexual side of the marriage.

One doesn't have to literally be on vacation to enjoy an adrenaline rush. She had looked forward to not being in a primary mommy role and being denied the next stage of her life has affected her mindset. 

If the OP goes through with a separation, she may find that she enjoys her freedom from the mommy role and freedom from the constant inquisition and gets a new lease on life. It could be the best thing for her. Anything has to be better than living a life of quiet desperation.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> She was into it before 'the MOMENT'. Who knows what happened during. But, the truth is she has been bored her whole marriage and having kids constantly around has not provided an opportunity to develop the sexual side of the marriage.
> 
> One doesn't have to literally be on vacation to enjoy an adrenaline rush. She had looked forward to not being in a primary mommy role and being denied the next stage of her life has affected her mindset.
> 
> If the OP goes through with a separation, she may find that she enjoys her freedom from the mommy role and freedom from the constant inquisition and gets a new lease on life. It could be the best thing for her. Anything has to be better than living a life of quiet desperation.


I'm not sure one can pin being "bored" an entire 42 year marriage on the husband.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Livvie said:


> I'm not sure one can pin being "bored" an entire 42 year marriage on the husband.


Especially since today's watchwords are equality of rights and responsibilities are a must in M to avoid misogynist based relationships.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I'm not sure one can pin being "bored" an entire 42 year marriage on the husband.


I'm not going to argue with you. I didn't say her boredom was his fault. You have repeatedly made it clear that you side with the man. Carry on.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I think @Personal is forgetting the impact of trauma and mental illness. We are not talking about "normal" relationships here.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Casual Observer said:


> I totally get where you're coming from. Thank goodness for TAM, where I can torture people here instead of my wife. I do appreciate and thank everyone here for that. It does at times feel like throwing darts badly.
> 
> *A man should be able to have a wife who desires him to an average degree, and cares about meeting HIS SEXUAL NEEDS without needing extreme adrenaline events. It's not reasonable, realistic, or sustainable.*​​I couldn't agree more. That's where tomorrow's session will go. It will be a major change getting away from shame & guilt though. It's also nice to think there's an option beyond "She's just not that into you." As for not wanting to face the truth, I would flip that on its head. I think we're going through all this with the goal of my wife facing the truth. She's strung things along endlessly, hoping to stall things out until they die, thinking she can get past this without change. I believe, wishful thinking sure, that there is something here for her therapists to deal with. Something she might embrace rather than push back on. And pushing back means ignoring, not actually doing anything.
> 
> BUT- what about the premise in general? Take me out of the equation.


I agree, to an extent, with both of them.

I have to be in a comfortable and emotionally stable place with Mrs. Conan to feel safe enough to be vulnerable enough to have sex. With that being said, as long as the aforementioned factors are in place, adding fun and excitement with a thrill or two is always fun!

Being a little adventurous together absolutely helps us for some good sex sessions.

Excitement isn't the only thing on our menu but it is there for some occasional and added fun.

I believe both of the authors you mentioned have a point.

I learned a lot from the book "What do women want?" by Daniel Bergner.

That book has some nonsense but a good amount of actual research as well.

Having a little distance occasionally isn't bad as well as being able to see your mate doing something they are good at while interacting with others and being appreciated by them.

I recently solved a technical issue at a client's that no one was able to fix. I did it in front of a crowd and I did it quickly with better results than anyone expected, getting more performance out of a system than anyone present realized was even possible.

If we would have been alone, Mrs. Conan would have ripped my clothes off right there.

She got hot seeing me do something I was good at in front of others.

That book might be worth a read for you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Your wife has told you what lights her fire: vacations (away from the kids) and getting your adult kids (20s-30s) out on their own. You absolutely refuse to kick the kids out of the nest because you like having them around even though they both work for you.
> 
> I don't blame your wife for not wanting to be intimate with a man who thinks so little of her wants and desires for her life. She feels stuck and feeling stuck is not conducive to a good sex life. You are as much of the problem if not more than she.


Well. I didn't know there were big smelly adult children living with them.

Hard stop for me right there.

If Mrs. Conan did that to me, I would move out.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

my patience wanes,
years ago as mrs Nail began to throw ice on the relationship to improve her comfort I read dating profiles. I learned 2 things
the vast majority (over 85%) of women are only interested in men significantly taller than average.
And practically every single person who has never kayaked is interested in learning how. 
That tells me that perel is right. You are a pack of adrenaline junkies.
Also you don't have a basic understanding of statistics, and very little understanding of kayaking.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> my patience wanes,
> years ago as mrs Nail began to throw ice on the relationship to improve her comfort I read dating profiles. I learned 2 things
> the vast majority (over 85%) of women are only interested in men significantly taller than average.
> And practically every single person who has never kayaked is interested in learning how.
> ...


LoL!

I'm not tall but I have kayaked and been pretty successful. Must be those mad kayaking skills!😆

I get what you're saying though and it is funny what they are expressing they want vs. what they can expect.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Even with trauma and


Livvie said:


> ??? Okay, I'm a woman and these responses about pumping up the adrenaline are from men.
> 
> I think the missing link is that usually when couples do these things, it's COUPLES who do these things. It's not all the man having to do the work and stand on his head arranging these scenarios just so he can have sex with has wife. A man can pick up when his partner is into these things, or not. .
> 
> From what I've read..... She has never put out signals that she's in interested in SEXUAL adrenaline sexcapades.



We agree!

But we all know the man does most of the work in sexual actions.

😉😉😉 I know, not always true, but a lot of women think all they have to do is show up and let a guy get them naked.

🤣🤣


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> She was into it before 'the MOMENT'. Who knows what happened during. But, the truth is she has been bored her whole marriage and having kids constantly around has not provided an opportunity to develop the sexual side of the marriage.
> 
> One doesn't have to literally be on vacation to enjoy an adrenaline rush. She had looked forward to not being in a primary mommy role and being denied the next stage of her life has affected her mindset.
> 
> If the OP goes through with a separation, she may find that she enjoys her freedom from the mommy role and freedom from the constant inquisition and gets a new lease on life. It could be the best thing for her. Anything has to be better than living a life of quiet desperation.


She has the role she chooses to have. She is an enabler w/regards the kids; I've done what I can. 


Livvie said:


> I'm not sure one can pin being "bored" an entire 42 year marriage on the husband.


She has refused to be an active participant in her life as well as our relationship. She likes to let things happen and then gets mad about it. The opposite of me; I believe that actions and inactions create what comes next. I believe in consequences; she really doesn't. That is the one thing that therapy is beginning to make a dent in.


In Absentia said:


> I think @Personal is forgetting the impact of trauma and mental illness. We are not talking about "normal" relationships here.


I believe we can move past trauma and mental illness as being responsible though. Attachment theory does a better job of explaining things. 


Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Even with trauma and
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, this.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

@Casual Observer,

FYI,









THC / Weed Lube, Anyone use?


I have read some amazing reviews from women applying it to their labia and vagina area with results that sound almost too good to be true. I am in a weed legal state. I dont smoke often but occasionally I like to get high and have sex. For me it intensifies the experience tenfold. it makes...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Do you feel that she still prefers parenting adult children to being a wife?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> @Casual Observer,
> 
> FYI,
> 
> ...


I'll check into that. But whether she's an adrenalin junkie or just plain bored, is this something that might help? Or maybe it would just because it sounds kind of risky or naughty etc to someone who's pretty straight-laced.


Openminded said:


> Do you feel that she still prefers parenting adult children to being a wife?


No, I don't think so. It's a good question. Sometimes I don't take my own advice, which is that the questions are more important than answers. Spend more time on the questions and less time thinking you have a handle on an answer.

Having said that, sometimes a plan, based on an incorrect premise, but executed well, is a lot better than no plan at all. This is something that the therapists don't seem to grasp. They have you going around in circles sometimes, talking too much about feelings and not about taking action. You never hear them saying "This might not be exactly the right analysis, but if you act as if it were, and follow through on these steps, you'll be in a better place." Maybe not even tell you that. Don't cast seeds of doubt. Just come up with a plan.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I can say sex is always better when W thinks I'm a smartass and not doing what she thinks I should be doing. I've long since accepted the dichotomy there.

Which fits anyway because mostly I don't do what she thinks I should be doing, and now and then do things on my own out of the blue.

But she never doubts I love her.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

So, C-O how did your ST session go with your W? What did the ST comment about your thoughts on the Perle vs Gottmans (yes, there are two of them husband and wife).


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I'm not sure one can pin being "bored" an entire 42 year marriage on the husband.


Yeah. If one partner complains of being "bored", I tend to think, "what are YOU bringing to the table?"


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> I believe we can move past trauma and mental illness as being responsible though. Attachment theory does a better job of explaining things.


I have attachment issues, my wife mental issues, which makes it a perfect combination, until we both decided to detach to survive the mess and look after the kids in the last 15 years. It's only recently that I stopped treating my wife as a person in charge of her life, because she isn't. She just survives. Which I understand. Maybe you should do the same. Do you really know what's going on in her head? Like you, I only got a glimpse of her misery by reading her notes, which I guess she left there on purpose. But I will never know this. Today it's our 30th wedding anniversary, which she "forgot". This is what I'm dealing with and, with sadness, I've given up.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

The adrenaline rush in sex doesn’t mean you have to climb the windows like teenager. There are so many ways to spice up and add element of adrenaline/surprise/something new. The sameness is the killer of sexual desire. (Check @Young at Heart last paragraph as one of the ways).
And if you are able to keep sex up in your relationship than you can absolutely go from adventurous to just simply intimate back and forth. They work best together.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Now, Perel vs Gottman.

I vote for combination. Perel tells us that a little bit of distance is a must to keep desire flowing. Yes, but it doesn’t have to mean emotional distance. I used to think that way, and it was rather disheartening, that you either have love and intimacy or great sex. Pick one, settle on the other one.
But now I see it a little differently. That “distance” that’s needed for great sex - I see it now more as unpredictability/exploration. That each partner tries actively to find new and exciting ways for foreplay and sex, bringing that way the element of surprise and something new (usually associated with new partner). Doesn’t have to be every time you have sex, but it must be an active ongoing feature.
And if you are lucky to have a partner with whom you can develop Gottman relationship on top of it, you are in for a ride of your life.
if you both can agree that there are no taboos, no judgement and everything can be freely discussed, that’s what you need.
If you can not openly discuss sex with your partner outside the bedroom, then you won’t be able to talk about it in the bedroom either.


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