# not sure where i stand



## Bremik

I had a lot of problems with my wife and a friend of hers named Jay. While she was in college {we were married) she spent many nights staying out until 1 a.m. or later studying or partying with Jay and his friends. At one point she ended up supposedly on his couch drunk and spent the night with neither one of them calling me to tell me where she was. As time has gone on (14+ years) I've found out other things that went on with more partying that I never knew about.
Currently she has taken a job with a company that Jay and another guy Dave work for in other states but my troubles have returned. I've come acrosss e-mails from Dave to my wife telling her how gorgeous she is and how much fun he has listening to her talk about sex all the time. When I confronted her about this she insisted that Dave didn't mean anything by this and everything was fine. She then went on a company triop showcasing their products for customers that lasted 4 days at which both Jay and Dave were at. My wife lied about staying out late (2-3 in the morning ) partying with them and often times didn't even talk to the kids at night. More recently I came across a voicemail from Dave and Jay asking my wife if she was "getting it on" with another co-worker and how lucky he was if she was and also how much they'd like to have anal sex with her. After leaving them a less than nice message and telling her that it's them or me I've decided I'm very tired and feel I can't trust her at all and I really don't know what to do. We dairy farm so when she's gone {5-6 nights/month) I have a lot to do with 70 cows and heifers and 3 kids. I feel betrayed and I feel that my wife only thinks of herself. Unfortunately I also love her very much and know I can't do better. I also know I can't do this again like in college and now with some of this new stuff I'm wondering how much more happened in college than I have yet to know. I need to do something but don't know what since I feek the pattern is back again. Any helpful ideas would be great.


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## MrsVain

So are you saying that you know your wife has been unfaithful to you? And when you confronted her she just said they were joking? i dont think anyone would leave a message like that would be joking. That is serious!!!!What was her response to that? Can you still love her if she continues to cheat on you? She is not only hurting you but the children too. What has she said about all this?


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## Bremik

I don't know that she has cheated on me and when confronted she is completely crushed and crying. She is prepared to quit her job but we need the money. As far as I know she has quit all communication with Jay but because of the job she sometimes has to consult with Dave. E-mails from Dave have all but stopped except for job related issues. I know I sound crazy but I believe my wife doesn''t take actions /consequences serioulsy. She says that she says little and they always talk this way to everyone. To an extent I believe her except I have a gut feeling that something happened (even if it was a kiss or he tried and she stopped him) with Jay probably in college though she consistently and strongly denies anything has happened with either. My biggest concern is she has herself in a position that people think she is available because of her flirting and she doesn't realize it and / or the situation she has created. To answer your question I unfortunately do still love her and am willing to try but she needs to be honest and it needs to end. The time span between the last 2 years of college and when she started this job were great with no problems except when we visited the state Jay is in and she would see him and friends I would take second place. It's like she can't say no to them and though she shorts me she knows she can make it up latee. Not that it matters but both Jay and Dave are married with kids.


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## MrsVain

bremik said:


> At one point she ended up supposedly on his couch drunk and spent the night with neither one of them calling me to tell me where she was. As time has gone on (14+ years) I've found out other things that went on with more partying that I never knew about.


I dont know of any woman or man who does this unless they are having sex. you said you found out that more went on behind your back. if it was innocent, she wouldnt have hide it.



> I've come acrosss e-mails from Dave to my wife telling her how gorgeous she is and how much fun he has listening to her talk about sex all the time.


you have hard core evidence that it is her talking about sex very often, not just a little like she is trying to twist it. 



> My wife lied about staying out late (2-3 in the morning ) partying with them and often times didn't even talk to the kids at night.


There is no way this was innocent either. why lie about that, plus forgetting to call your kids is a big one, it means she was doing something that she shouldnt have been and it was more important then her own babies. Speaking from a woman's point of view. If i am out just drinking, i dont forget my babies or calling. i want to hear their voices because i miss them and they mean more to me than just drinking. i have been out partying and having sex, and yes, those where the times i didnt call to say goodnight to the children.



> More recently I came across a voicemail from Dave and Jay asking my wife if she was "getting it on" with another co-worker and how lucky he was if she was


OMG!! Why in the world would they even ask that unless someone was saying something or saw something. This is more then just talking sex in the office!! 


> and also how much they'd like to have anal sex with her.


You have the proof that she cheated on you. I guaratee it. Nobody leaves a text like this unless it was true!!! So she is CHEATING on you!! Apparently these guys already know they can talk to her that way because she is the one who talks to them that way. if you think it is all talk then you are lieing to yourself.
You CANT Trust her, You cant DEPEND on her, She is NOT LOYAL. She is NOT HONEST. You HAVE BEEN BETRAYED, and she DOES ONLY THINK of herself. This is more then just love, sometimes love is not enough. 

I really feel sorry for you because you sound like a wonderful, hard working, dependable, loyal husband. I only wish my husband was like that. But i believe you really need to sit down with your self and decide if you want to go on like this for the rest of your life. BECAUSE SHE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. She is continuing to excuse her friends actions as being not that big of a deal, because they are not a big deal to her since she is the one that "started" it in the first place. She tries to minimize it because it is bother you and you are yelling about it and basically because she got caught and she doesnt want you digging deeper and finding out the truth. You gut feeling is usually right, it is your head that is trying to convince yourself otherwise. look everyone flirts, i flirt, but guys know that i am just flirting and they have no chance in h*ll getting with me. And there is no way i would ever allow that kind of texting to go on or that level of sex talk either. For whatever reason, she encourages it. And as a woman, there is only one reason you encourage that kind of thing and that being you are open for suggestions and hoping for some action. so i honestly feel it is more then someone trying to kiss her and i seriously doubt she stopped them. No woman who loves her husband would risk going to visit a guy that they KNOW makes their husband upset. it just isnt worth it. 

That needed to be said, because you have your blinders on. The thing now is what are you going to do about it. You can ignore it, and act like nothing happened. and things might be okay for a while, but she will do it again and again and again. You can sit her down, without the babies, and have an allnighter talk with her about your marriage and what you expect from it and find out what she wants from a marriage and a husband. and force her to understand that her doing these kinds of things are not acceptable. and how they hurt you and might break up the marriage. but i still think she is too selfish for this to work. or you can cut your losses and leave her. Love is strong but it sounds like you are the only one in love here. Her actions are speaking stronger then words.

good luck. i hope what i said has made you look at things a little differently. I know it is hard to discribe what is going on and how the other person really is. So i might be wrong about how your wife really is, but i do think you need to look long and hard at her and not make excuses. I think marriage counselling might help too, you might want to check into in your area and demand she goes with you.


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## draconis

AT best she is having an emotional affair. At worst she has been playing you for years. You think you can't do better than someone that treats you like a dorrmat? She needs to serious up, and lead a life that is open and honest. It really sounds like she is hiding sometime and a councilor would be a good help.

draconis


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## Bremik

Thank you all for your posts! I think a common thread with a lot of people on this is that for the most part we're in our relationships for better or worse and it's not so much that we have blinders on but we hold out for hope that our partner will fully come back to being the person we originally fell in love with. In my case it's the realization that when I give up we're done and our dream of owning our farm is done as well as we have now screwed up the lives of 3 innocent children. To me as well as others ( I'm guessing) one of the hardest parts of dealing with spouse problems is that we protect our families and to some extent our friends and acquaintences by not telling them what's going on. So the person that is getting hurt looks angry or disconnected when actually they're hurt and dealing with a tremendous stress all alone. You don't want to give up a portion of your life (in my case 20 yrs) that will only make the hole you feel now bigger. A lot of us come to sites like this to be told things we already know just so we can have someone to listen and possibly come up with a way to save what we are worried can't be saved. Sorry about the blabbing.


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## MrsVain

I agree to a point. I am also very much against divorce and would love to find a solution to solve my problem with my marriage. I agree in not telling our friends and acquaintences everything that is going on because they never forget while you move past it sometimes. And i agree that is why the majority are on this site, to get support, to vent without having to worry about fallback, the Anonymousity, and maybe someone might have something new to say or try.

And i also agree that 2 people can work and should continue to work out issues within a marriage. and most issues can be compromised and a happy medium can be found. But there are few things i consider unexcuseable. 1. Cheating!! never cheat on each other. I am not dumb enough to say i would never be tempted or will never think about it. But the answer is so easy. Dont put yourself in situations where you can cheat. I know for a fact, there are 2 people that i would love to have sex with and given the right sitution, probably would cheat or could make an excuse to cheat on my husband. I CHOOSE NOT to by keeping myself well away from those 2. the 2 temptations, for example, one is my bf brother, what a god!! me and my husband have been having a hard go at it for a few years, and some months are worse then others, so one night she asked me to met her at the bar, to have a drink, and i was considering it, after fighting with my husband and a hard day at work, a drink would have been nice, until she said, oh and my brother is here. The brakes came on, and i said no, i think i better just go home. I could easily see me drinking too much (on accident or accidently on purpose) and ending up in bed with him. and so i regonzized my weakness and just did not put my self in the situation that would happen. its that easy. honestly.

The other one i cant live with is Hitting. Raise one hand to me, and i will leave at the drop of the hat. no excuses, i dont care how bad you feel afterwards, and could care less what your reasons were. bad day, i pushed you too far {i admit i can do this}, i physically pushed you {have done this also} or you were just so mad whatever. Dont matter, i am the female you are the male. and males NEVER hit a female. no matter what!!!

but those are my limits, maybe yours are different. All i say, is you need to look at your marriage and your wife. Long and hard, and thoroughly. and after 20 years, you cant expect to find the lady you fell in love with, she doesnt exist anymore. we all change with life experiences and we cant go back to who were once were. Some with your wife, she is somebody totally different. The most you can hope for is to fall in love with the person she has became, and she with you.

again, good luck


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## Bremik

I agree with you. Really it comes down to trust. Trust that when you're unhappy or just need reassurance you'll talk to each other. Trust that when you're out in the public w/o your spouse you'll still behave like you're happily married even if you're marriage is struggling (kudos to you for how you act Mrs.Vain), Once the trust is challenged or gone it is really hard to continue because there is always that doubt in the back of your mind. Right or wrong I think when the trust is gone whoever broke it has to do double the effort to re-build that trust and leave no question in your mind as to where their loyalty is. I also agree with no hitting and I hope you aren't talking from experience.


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## MrsVain

Thank you for your compliments, it is hard to do. but worth the effort for me anyhow. i dont like everyone knowing what is going on and i dont want the kids to suffer by seeing their parents always fighting. some days is harder then others, but that is when i cry in bed after the children are sleeping. ugh!!! i completely agree with you on all counts on this one but i am going to add one more, trust that the other person will put forth the same effort you are and show you how much you mean and they care. it is so hard when that trust is broken, mine is on a very thin string, but at least we still have that. hitting is from past experiences when i was in high school and not as bad as i have seen others go thru. 

i hope you succeed in your marriage because i would hate for a marriage that has that many years in it to fail. sometimes, i think my marriage is harding on me then anything else i have to do.


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## MrsVain

how are you doing lately?


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## Bremik

still here. Kind of numb and was thinking of even posting another question on here. The question would ask what is the best way to convince your spouse that they need to take action soon before it's too late and how to follow through.
As far as my wife I saw that she deleted an e-mail from Jay that only stated he couldn't make an unplanned event for the company that my wife plans on going to. She left other responses from others still on. Not sure what it means. As my luck seems to have it she is going on a training trip for 4 days and will meet up with another (Mike) one of "the group" who just started working for the company. His dad was telling everyone that my wife was planning on leaving me and hooking up with Mike. Luckily some good friends of ours called me to ask if everything was ok and why they were asking. He also at one point at a bar was "humping" my wife's leg while we were all sitting up at the bar. I really wanted to hit him but didn't want to embarrass my wife and we rode up with all of them and I wasn't sure how we would get back if I started a fight-How stupid is that? This Mike stuff all happened while she was in school. By the way she still hugs him when she sees him. In theory I have asked her to stop. So I am seriously considering showing her my posts and everyone's responses on this site to see if that does anything for her. I really feel she thinks she has improved -which she has- but I wanted her to completely break all ties and she is unable to do that. Sorry about the long answer but thanks for asking. By the way I didn't mention Mike originally because I thought he won't ever be a problem again-Wrongo!


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## Bremik

Wanted to update everyone on this post that we have been seeing a counselor. Though I'm happy that we are going I feel that my questions of why these things have happened have not been answered. I guess that we have concluded that my wife avoids conflict at all costs which isn't a new thing to me. This avoidance does somewhat explain why she can't be blunt with her male "friends" but she does risk making me mad since she knows I will still accept her. But the other problem in this is that though we have talked more using tools from the counselor we still go in circles about these issues. She feels these people are no threat to us and therefore there are no problems and basically I need to let this all go. I still strongly disagree and though we don't argue per se we do get frustrated since we aren't budging from our positions. The other thing that bothers me in all this is that she feels she has done more than enough to change things. She has stopped all non-essential calls but she also hasn't seen them- particularly Jay - to see how she really stands up to him. What do you think?


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## 225985

You posted over 8 years ago about your wife cheating and you are still with her? WTF.


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## stixx

He didn't post anything about her cheating.

She was perhaps a bit inappropriate with some of her coworkers in terms of what she talked about but that's it. 

Well short of cheating.


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## Vinnydee

Some men just do not want to accept what their senses tell them and will grasp as straws rather than face the truth and a divorce. The evidence is there and she will lie about everything. How stupid would she be to admit it when you did not catch her in the act? She already knows that she can play you and will continue to do so. Reminds me of the marriage of my best friend. His wife was younger and she still went out with her old friends, both men and woman. She did cheat and had sex with two of the male friends when drunk. They divorced and when she matured, they got back together to raise their child but my friend told me that he does not even want to run a DNA test because he is afraid of the results. He rather pretend that he is sure that his son is his. Does not look like him at all though. 

If it smells like cheating, sounds like cheating and looks like cheating, it is cheating and don't look for your wife to confirm anything. She is no fool. Don't be a fool either. A person's past behavior is a very good indicator of their future behavior. I have dated a few married women and most of them were forgiven once or twice by their husbands. They never stopped cheating despite their promises. Instead they just got better at not getting caught. They knew all tricks and learned from their mistakes. Many husbands chose to believe the lie because the alternative is not acceptable to them.


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## Bremik

Not sure how this got back on- I didn't post it again


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## stixx

It never left.


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> It never left.


That's no lie


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## stixx

Of course not. Why would I lie about your thread never leaving?


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> Of course not. Why would I lie about your thread never leaving?


I was mocking my situation not your comment


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## stixx

Don't mock yourself, you've done plenty to make yourself miserable.

It's time to turn this ship around.

But let's start by pushing your wife over the railing.


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## 225985

stixx said:


> He didn't post anything about her cheating.
> 
> She was perhaps a bit inappropriate with some of her coworkers in terms of what she talked about but that's it.
> 
> Well short of cheating.




Browse his other threads. Lol.


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## stixx

I read his other threads. Most of them anyway. 

I read where she's got boundary issues and she flirts with other guys and messaged one guy in particular for at least a year.

I read nothing that proved cheating.

Did I miss a post of his where he said she was, beyond the shadow of a doubt?

@bremik

Did you ever find definitive proof of an affair?


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> I read his other threads. Most of them anyway.
> 
> I read where she's got boundary issues and she flirts with other guys and messaged one guy in particular for at least a year.
> 
> I read nothing that proved cheating.
> 
> Did I miss a post of his where he said she was, beyond the shadow of a doubt?
> 
> @bremik
> 
> Did you ever find definitive proof of an affair?


No- hence the reason I am still here. Her biggest trouble is the lying and omission of facts when it comes to these problems. Jay was supposed to be completely out of the picture mostly due to job change and she had to change her ph number when she left last job. I had no idea they had been contacting each other. He and I despise each other and she knows it. 

When she spent significant time trying to convince me yesterday that she is trying very hard to be transparent and honest it kind of fell apart after I found those messages. There is more but the core of it is- how did he get her new number? How did he know what she was doing? How far back has this been going on? She is well aware of my feelings for him. She was told at one point long ago it was me or him- you might get an idea of how that has gone


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## stixx

As far as Jay goes- could be they've just become close friends, you have no evidence to the contrary. 

But like you said, that almost doesn't matter. Their continued friendship was a dealbreaker and you told her as much, until of course it became apparent that the friendship continued, and it was no longer a dealbreaker for you because you lost your testicles somewhere along the way. She won't respect you for allowing her to continue the friendship with Jay after you told her you wouldn't tolerate it. Once that happened, she became aware that you weren't worthy of the truth, whatever it might be. I know it's a twisted way of thinking but that's what they do.


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> As far as Jay goes- could be they've just become close friends, you have no evidence to the contrary.
> 
> But like you said, that almost doesn't matter. Their continued friendship was a dealbreaker and you told her as much, until of course it became apparent that the friendship continued, and it was no longer a dealbreaker for you because you lost your testicles somewhere along the way. She won't respect you for allowing her to continue the friendship with Jay after you told her you wouldn't tolerate it. Once that happened, she became aware that you weren't worthy of the truth, whatever it might be. I know it's a twisted way of thinking but that's what they do.


Any friend that encourages a person to ignore their spouse and continually go against their spouse is no friend to the marriage. Jay was the one talking on the nasty phone message. My wife spent the night at jays drunk with neither one calling to tell me where she was- when she was in school. He has made a habit of getting her to do things if he knew I didn't want her to. And yes - both I and the counselor we saw a few years ago have considered jay a cancer to the marriage that she didn't need to have contact with anymore. She has assured me multiple times over the last couple of years that she had no contact with jay- I even let my guard down because I began to believe it. She messed up more because she actually had to contact him last week because of her job and made a point of telling me because she wanted to be transparent- just forgot to mention she had been contacting him for quite some time now


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## harrybrown

So when is she moving out?

Tell her to not bother to come home.

She can stay at Jays.

Be sure to keep copies of the messages.

And expose and expose.

Tell her work. and file for D.


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## stixx

bremik said:


> My wife spent the night at jays drunk with neither one calling to tell me where she was- when she was in school.


She was drunk and SPENT THE NIGHT AT HIS HOUSE?

Dude she's screwing him. 

That's all the evidence you need. 

You need to be somewhere else in your life right about now.


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## Marc878

stixx said:


> *As far as Jay goes- could be they've just become close friends, you have no evidence to the contrary.*
> 
> But like you said, that almost doesn't matter. Their continued friendship was a dealbreaker and you told her as much, until of course it became apparent that the friendship continued, and it was no longer a dealbreaker for you because you lost your testicles somewhere along the way. She won't respect you for allowing her to continue the friendship with Jay after you told her you wouldn't tolerate it. Once that happened, she became aware that you weren't worthy of the truth, whatever it might be. I know it's a twisted way of thinking but that's what they do.


Only if you're very naive. An emotional affair with contact is almost always physical. Especially when they hide and are secretive with continued contact, switching his phone number, giving him a fake name, etc, etc, etc.

OP read back on your old posts pretend this is your brother or a close friend what would you think or advise?


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## Marc878

stixx said:


> She was drunk and SPENT THE NIGHT AT HIS HOUSE?
> 
> Dude she's screwing him.
> 
> That's all the evidence you need.
> 
> You need to be somewhere else in your life right about now.


He's wallowed in this for years I suspect another thread in the year 2020.


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## stixx

What a waste of life.


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> What a waste of life.


It would appear so. I won't feel guilty for trying but I am angry that I gave her many opportunities to leave and she wouldn't because "she couldn't imagine life without me" and now it appears jay NEVER left


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## Lostinthought61

Remix it seems to me your at a crossroads...she either did cheat in which case you either divorce or possibility lose the farm or you suffer going forward knowing you need her income to make ends meet...neither is a good option...but alternatively you now have to live with the face that she will never be honest with you......I'm mot sure i could live with that either.


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## farsidejunky

Bremik. Bremik...Still orating in the face of irrefutable evidence​.

Talk less, do more.


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## Bremik

farsidejunky said:


> Bremik. Bremik...Still orating in the face of irrefutable evidence​.
> 
> Talk less, do more.


I read your initial thread and think maybe some of this will make sense to you. This morning during milking I talked to my wife. She tried to kiss me before she went in and I stopped her and said "you realize your contact with jay is the deal breaker?" I forgot to buckle my seat belt before the ride that followed!

She sees nothing wrong with contacting jay and it's not like they actually meet. She cried said she can't understand why I can't get over this. I have been mean to her for 6 months now. There is nothing going on. I shouldn't have any issues that jay is still around because he is not. She is not lying to me. Now I am creeping on her because I know things and why am I watching her? She can't do anything without me blowing things out of proportion. I asked her am I blowing out of proportion that the guy she partied with in school, spent the night on the couch when drunk, that she confided to when we had arguments about her staying out with and he told her to ignore me, the guy who left very sexually explicit messages and who now has her new phone number of which she of course can't recall when he got it or why he contacted her and has been in contact with her without her telling me- Is this what I am blowing out of proportion? 

I am not giving her a chance. I am just angry at her for everything. Round and round we went fair amount of crying from her and basically making me feel like I am crazy. Welcome to how it goes around here!


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## stixx

So you're walking around angry at her all the time and having pointless circular arguments with her while continuing to waste your life by staying with this deceptive cheater.

Are you looking for a pat on the back?

If nothing else direct your anger to the correct person.

Hint- it's not her.


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## farsidejunky

Your problem is that you keep hoping she will see it your way. 

She won't. You are not compatible. Accept it and make your decision based on facts, not hope.



bremik said:


> I read your initial thread and think maybe some of this will make sense to you. This morning during milking I talked to my wife. She tried to kiss me before she went in and I stopped her and said "you realize your contact with jay is the deal breaker?" I forgot to buckle my seat belt before the ride that followed!
> 
> She sees nothing wrong with contacting jay and it's not like they actually meet. She cried said she can't understand why I can't get over this. I have been mean to her for 6 months now. There is nothing going on. I shouldn't have any issues that jay is still around because he is not. She is not lying to me. Now I am creeping on her because I know things and why am I watching her? She can't do anything without me blowing things out of proportion. I asked her am I blowing out of proportion that the guy she partied with in school, spent the night on the couch when drunk, that she confided to when we had arguments about her staying out with and he told her to ignore me, the guy who left very sexually explicit messages and who now has her new phone number of which she of course can't recall when he got it or why he contacted her and has been in contact with her without her telling me- Is this what I am blowing out of proportion?
> 
> I am not giving her a chance. I am just angry at her for everything. Round and round we went fair amount of crying from her and basically making me feel like I am crazy. Welcome to how it goes around here!


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## Bremik

stixx said:


> So you're walking around angry at her all the time and having pointless circular arguments with her while continuing to waste your life by staying with this deceptive cheater.
> 
> Are you looking for a pat on the back?
> 
> If nothing else direct your anger to the correct person.
> 
> Hint- it's not her.


No I wasn't looking for a pat on the back just stating where we are as of this morning


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## Emerging Buddhist

I know this is selfish on my part, but would love to keep this on the "Sand and fine dining" thread. 

But then, this is not in my control, so all I can do is ask and then not come back to it as I set my boundary and let go (I'll keep the circular logic out of it, I promise).


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## 3Xnocharm

Just be done and END IT finally. She is 100% in the wrong, you know it, and her not recognizing it as such is total disrespect to you.

You have been dealing with this for EIGHT YEARS..... BE DONE!


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## Nucking Futs

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I know this is selfish on my part, but would love to keep this on the "Sand and fine dining" thread.
> 
> But then, this is not in my control, so all I can do is ask and then not come back to it as I set my boundary and let go (I'll keep the circular logic out of it, I promise).


These threads do need to be merged. How about it @farsidejunky?


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## jb02157

OP, you are really ok with doing nothing about this? She's definitely cheating on you openly and letting you find out about it.


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## Openminded

She's never going to see things your way (or stop trying to convince you to see things her way). You need to let go of the expectation that she'll stop communicating with him and lying to you about it. If he really is a deal breaker then make it stick. Otherwise, stop saying he is because when you don't follow through that makes you look weak and women don't respect weak men. 

Stay in the marriage or don't. Those are your options.


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