# What is nagging and how to address



## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

:frown2:

One of the most common comments from men is that their wives nag or complain. I think there are several components of this and related issues, and some solutions. 

Problems

1. Voice. Women seem to have two voices, a pleasant, mild-flirty one which subtle indicates admiration, used for bosses and casual acquaintances, and a nasty, somewhat harsh and sarcastic one seemingly used for children, family members and others. A family member was talking to her daughter who was getting annoyed. I asked why don't you speak nicer to her, complimenting her, and perhaps your message will get across better. She thought and then said, look I can talk to my daughter the way I want. 

2. Criticism mixed in. When women start with a request but subtly mix in a criticism the message may get lost but the criticism remains. As an analogy, imagine a husband saying this, I heard Jack is having an affair with that new divorced woman lady who moved in. By the say, Jimmy's pickup changed from 4 to 3. Oh, and I heard she likes to sunbathe topless and I did happen to notice one day during a walk. 

What? You forget to to pick Jimmy up on time and I had to leave work, why don't women listen. 

3. Problems with no solutions Saying something is a problem with men means nothing without a solution. We're going to need some more money to pay bills puts a husband in lockdown mode since no way of accomplishing this is stated. 


Solutions for husbands

1. Recognize that she is trying to get things done. Understand women can be bright and well-organized so consider the message not the way it is phrased. 

2. Recognize the comment or statement is well-intended even if phrased harshly.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I can only speak for myself. What is nagging?

Definition in context of behavior is: _(of a person) constantly harassing someone to do something._

In general, I'm not a nagger. Yet I have my moments. And it's not related to how I view my husband. It's actually nothing to do with him. It's my stress in that moment. If that happens, I usually don't realize I'm doing it.

My husband has calmly replied, 'I got it. Quit busting my balls.' That response stops me in my tracks. Sometimes he jokes about what I can do with his balls... results in both of us laughing... while simultaneously getting the message across that I need to ease up.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

As for the generalizations around women having two voices and such... that's not something I can relate to and have not experienced with friends or other women in my life.


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## McDean (Jun 13, 2015)

Bobby5000 said:


> :frown2:
> 
> One of the most common comments from men is that their wives nag or complain. I think there are several components of this and related issues, and some solutions.
> 
> ...



Under Problems
#1 - not so much though I think most people have different voices depending on audience and topic
#2 - most definitely, adding in criticism with any request you make automatically makes it nagging to me. Example: Can you take out the trash real quick honey and try not to miss the dumpster this time. If you can't do it yourself you don't get to dictate the way it is done....you could nicely ask me to be more careful however(assuming what missed the dumpster was even my doing in the first place).
#3 - Huge shout out to the ladies to read this one twice - love you to death but it has been shown and many of you have mentioned in posts that sometimes you just want us to listen, agree with you and it's a reasonable request. On the flip side can you do us a favor and let us know sometimes when that is what you want? Men by nature have been socialized (not solely and not saying women don't do this as well) to be solvers - if you tell me a problem I immediately begin brainstorming solutions. I think this is a good thing but understand it isn't always welcome. But to Bobby's point, pointing out the unsolvable leaves us feeling defeated and I lump it in with nagging.

Solutions:
#1) Amen
#2) Probably good advice but in reverse she should work on her communication skills....
#3) For men and women, don't assume I haven't 'filled your request' because I don't care....I may simply be busy, distracted or forgot but it's not because I don't care - I have a lot of priorities in life and some get in the way of others when times are hectic....


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

My definition of nagging is simple: if you ask me to do something more than twice, it is nagging. Ask me once to let me know you'd like it done, ask me once more in case I forgot. If I still don't do it, I obviously don't think it's all that important and am not interested in doing it, so you should look for some other way to get it done if it is that important to you.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I think men and women can both nag. From my own experience, I'd nag my ex H when he didn't do what he said he'd do.... So it would kick in because I had a severe lack of trust that he'd actually do what he says. 

Being older now, I have no desire to nag a guy again, so instead I gently remind my SO and also treat him like a grown arse man.. And act pretty hands-off. He holds me accountable for my [email protected] as well but doesn't coddle me. It works for us.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

I had to retrain myself how to ask for stuff to get done as my kids were growing. My son told me on many occasions to stop repeating myself. He heard me the first time. (Too bad he never gets anything done until the last minute) So now, I say it once and that's it. You don't do it, oh well. You will live my consequences. 

My husband hates nagging. I learned that in the first week of being married. Now, I let him know what I need and leave it. He gets it done or not. If not then, he can live with how I look care of it or paid to have it done. 

I am bossy. However, I am very cognizant of my tone when speaking to everyone. It depends on what you hope to achieve and the situation.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think for me personally it's much more about the tone. I am a type A and hig energy guy so if something needs to be done or she needs me to do something I don't forget it and because I can't let things sit I get it done as soon as possible, on the rare occasion I need a reminder I only need one.

Tone is more when I identify the nagging..the presence of condescending and belittling that can creep in. Some women do this and some don't. I couldn't live with any woman who used this a primary means of communication.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

I think nagging is one of the things a man hates most . My husband once said that there is nothing worse than a nagging woman:grin2:.

I used to be a bit of a nag, I see nagging as moaning and groaning about one thing or another over and over.

Telling a man what hes doing wrong all the time looking at all the negative things he does and none of the positive things.... leaving things lying about, not doing things the way you want them, if it bothers a woman that much then why not do it yourself instead of asking over and over and being a nag:smile2:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Joey2k said:


> My definition of nagging is simple: if you ask me to do something more than twice, it is nagging. Ask me once to let me know you'd like it done, ask me once more in case I forgot. If I still don't do it, I obviously don't think it's all that important and am not interested in doing it, so you should look for some other way to get it done if it is that important to you.


Or...you could be the man you claim to be and do what you said you were going to do. If it wasn't that important to you, and you don't care enough about your wife to do what IS important to HER, then you should be honest and just say no.

I have a page-long list of things that need doing on my house that I either lack the knowledge to do or the strength to do, both of which he possesses. And my H put us $100,000 in debt so I can't afford to pay someone else to do it.

Many women simply can't do certain things themselves. Now, if the man says 'I'll do it on Sunday,' she'll likely be fine with that and move on and stop bringing it up. But if he then does NOT do it on Sunday, _she _is nagging?

Where's the place in all that for the talk about doing what you say you will do, and then don't?


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## bbdad (Feb 11, 2013)

I had a friend ask me this long ago. My response was the 2nd time you say something, and could be the first time - depending on tone and attitude.

I have to agree with those above that say nagging is the absolute worst thing. I can't stand it.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> Or...you could be the man you claim to be and do what you said you were going to do. If it wasn't that important to you, and you don't care enough about your wife to do what IS important to HER, then you should be honest and just say no.
> 
> I have a page-long list of things that need doing on my house that I either lack the knowledge to do or the strength to do, both of which he possesses. And my H put us $100,000 in debt so I can't afford to pay someone else to do it.
> 
> ...


This! Husbands love to complain about "nagging" when they are the ones who procrastinate like irresponsible teenagers! 

My husband has become better about following through on his promises. He doesn't want to hear me roaring after I ask 556 times. I am polite about asking for things but if I need to ask repeatedly, I can no longer be respectful when I go over the same request.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I agree that the flip side of nagging is saying you will do it with no intention of following through. Just say no.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I believe nagging is when you tell someone something that you have reason to believe that they already know. 

It is legitimate to remind someone of a chore if you have good reason to believe that they have actually forgotten. It is nagging if you tell them to do a chore even though they are aware of the chore and have chosen not to do it at that time.

Nagging is objectionable because it assumes you have the right to control what and when someone does things. It assumes that you are a better judge of their priorities than they are.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I believe nagging is when you tell someone something that you have reason to believe that they already know.
> 
> It is legitimate to remind someone of a chore if you have good reason to believe that they have actually forgotten. It is nagging if you tell them to do a chore even though they are aware of the chore and have chosen not to do it at that time.
> ...


Why is it controlling to expect someone to follow through on what they have already agreed to?

Shouldn't couples be considerate of each other's priorities? 

For example, if a wife has agreed to make an appointment for her husband, that task shouldn't be completed purely at her convenience if the appointment was very important. I would say the same thing about a husband agreeing to move heavy boxes and then not moving them for six weeks.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Six weeks? Hah! Try not going through boxes that have moved through THREE houses over a period of 20 years! And I'm not allowed to touch them, even though they take up a full garage. Or a garage door that quit opening in the last hurricane...8 years ago. Or holes in the ceiling from 12 years ago. I could go on...


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

turnera said:


> Or...you could be the man you claim to be and do what you said you were going to do. If it wasn't that important to you, and you don't care enough about your wife to do what IS important to HER, then you should be honest and just say no.
> 
> I have a page-long list of things that need doing on my house that I either lack the knowledge to do or the strength to do, both of which he possesses. And my H put us $100,000 in debt so I can't afford to pay someone else to do it.
> 
> ...


If I said I would do it then I will. But what if I never said I was going to do it? What if it's something she wants and keeps pressuring me about that I don't particularly care about? Am I obligated to do something I don't care about just because she wants it?

If that were the case, then there would be no threads complaining about sexless marriages.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Bobby5000 said:


> :frown2:
> 
> One of the most common comments from men is that their wives nag or complain. I think there are several components of this and related issues, and some solutions.
> 
> ...


Nagging is when a person gives responsibility for things getting done to another person, but wants the power to complain without contributing. My attitude to it is that if you have a decent man, he will care for you, protect you nad put you at the center of his life. He will also take responsibility for getting things done. However, you might disagree with the approach. The choice is this, what is more important to you:
- The man who will live for you
- Psychologically wearing him down to show you are right about something.

I was on holiday with a lady recently, where she arranged everything for me. I barely had to think and when she did not want to make the decisions, she indicated so and I took over. The only time we really disagreed was the final tip and I realized this woman had done so much for me, that I was not going to create an argument or try and prove I was right over something so utterly petty. However, as a man, I am used to taking responsibility, had I continually whined at her about this tip, it would have been nagging.

If a woman thinks her complaints and being right is more important than what a man does for them, she should leave. If a woman thinks her complaints and being right is more important than what a man does for them, he should leave.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> If I said I would do it then I will. But what if I never said I was going to do it? What if it's something she wants and keeps pressuring me about that I don't particularly care about? Am I obligated to do something I don't care about just because she wants it?
> 
> If that were the case, then there would be no threads complaining about sexless marriages.


That's when you tell her to stop asking you because you "ain't going to do it!" 

Seriously. If you don't feel like doing something and she asks you, tell her, " I really don't want to do that. I'm not going to." Maybe even offer her a solution as to how she can complete the task. 

"Joey!!!! Can you please take out the trash in a few min.? The trucks come tomorrow."

"Nope. Not going to happen, but you can take it out, or call your brother to come do it."

Now, this isn't going to win you any brownie points, but at least it lets her know that you have no interest in taking out the trash. 

I think I'm a weird gal. I would prefer to not be d*cked around about stuff like that. If my H said he didn't want to take out the trash, I would just do it myself (hell, I do it myself all of the time anyway...and mow the grass...and weedeat...and - well you get it). 

I think the older we get the less that sort of stuff bothers us. Like if I asked my H do to do something and he didn't do it or told me he didn't want to do it...I would just do it myself or hire someone to do it - because it's so much easier than getting mad at H for not doing it. :grin2:


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Mrs.Submission said:


> This! Husbands love to complain about "nagging" when they are the ones who procrastinate like irresponsible teenagers!
> 
> My husband has become better about following through on his promises. He doesn't want to hear me roaring after I ask 556 times. I am polite about asking for things but if I need to ask repeatedly, I can no longer be respectful when I go over the same request.


"Husbands"? As in all of them? That is clearly bull****. 

I can get things done, put food on the table, keep the place clean and ensure the bills are paid. I have a habit of leaving cupboard doors open. If a woman thinks it is overall worth busting my balls over closing kitchen cupboards, she can **** off. 

Nagging wears people down. If something is so important that it is worth a psychological assault, then leave him for both of your sakes. When a woman nags a man rather than boosting him, she has completely given up on him and decided that her being right is more important than his potential. She might be right. Leave or support, do not nag.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

​Did you know that there are men who nag too? It's actually very common. My son's father was like that. It was constant. It was not that I was not doing things that he brought up, it was that no matter how much I did, it was not enough, I did it wrong and I should have guessed at everything else he wanted done that he refused to do himself. And talk about having to be right? He had to be right in everything. That was definitely most important.

My point is that trying to make this about women being naggers and men poor victims is not going to go over very well since there are a lot of women who have nagging husbands and do not appreciate being talked to as though all women have one mind and all behave in the same way... thus need to be schooled.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> "Husbands"? As in all of them? That is clearly bull****.
> 
> I can get things done, put food on the table, keep the place clean and ensure the bills are paid. I have a habit of leaving cupboard doors open. If a woman thinks it is overall worth busting my balls over closing kitchen cupboards, she can **** off.
> 
> Nagging wears people down. If something is so important that it is worth a psychological assault, then leave him for both of your sakes. When a woman nags a man rather than boosting him, she has completely given up on him and decided that her being right is more important than his potential. She might be right. Leave or support, do not nag.


Yes, and when a man nags his wife, she's doing the same negative things to her.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Yes, and when a man nags his wife, she's doing the same negative things to her.


Absolutely, and the advice would be the same. 

Nagging comes when someone is not taking responsibility, but is complaining nonetheless. They are too dead inside to do it, but wants to wear the other person who does take responsibility rather than support them. 

There are also times when it is important the the person who has the capability to do it just does not. My ex-wife was told to do the housework several times as I was working late. Ultimately, if it gets to the nagging stage you have to take responsibility and leave them


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> Absolutely, and the advice would be the same.
> 
> Nagging comes when someone is not taking responsibility, but is complaining nonetheless. They are too dead inside to do it, but wants to wear the other person who does take responsibility rather than support them.
> 
> There are also times when it is important the the person who has the capability to do it just does not. My ex-wife was told to do the housework several times as I was working late. Ultimately, if it gets to the nagging stage you have to take responsibility and leave them


I'm not sure that I would say that nagging always comes from someone who is not taking responsibility. Sometimes the person who does the nagging has a very good point.

If one spouse basically refuses to do reasonable things.. for example take responsibly for 50% of housework since they both work... it's not fair to the spouse who gets stuck doing everything to call them a nag because they try to talk and reason with the other to take responsibility for some of the housework. 

I've head people who are the ones who are basically pushing all work off on their spouse complain about their spouse nagging. 

In this case the person who refuses to take responsibility may not be nagging, but they are clearly the person who is not being supporting their spouse and not taking responsibility.

Often times, calling it nagging and closing off to not hear it is simply a way to avoid doing what a person should be doing.

.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Joey2k said:


> If I said I would do it then I will. But what if I never said I was going to do it? What if it's something she wants and keeps pressuring me about that I don't particularly care about? Am I obligated to do something I don't care about just because she wants it?
> 
> If that were the case, then there would be no threads complaining about sexless marriages.


I think it's different if you never agreed to do something.
I believe that spouses should be sexually available to each other, even when one of them doesn't necessarily feel like making love.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
If someone has decided that they do not want to a particular chore at a particular time, then "reminding" them serves only as punishment. I believe no one ever has the right to punish their spouse.

If someone consistently does not keep up their responsibilities, then there is a different sort of problem in the relationship and I think nagging is not the answer. Serious discussion or divorce is called for. 

Nagging can become a habit. Someone who is nagged may not bother doing anything until they are repeatedly nagged - "if she really cared about it she would ask again..". 

It is also a soft form of emotional abuse. "have you taken the garbage out yet", contains an implied "you are not fulfilling your obligations, and I need to treat you like a child". 


I do get nagged sometimes, and there are generally two situations:
1), It is something I have decided not to do. Nagging never changes that, but lowers my opinion of my wife. (eg, I am not going to the doctor for this medical issue for reasons I have already discussed).

2). It is something I am planning to do, but I have sequenced it with a series of other tasks in a way that lets me do them efficiently. (I am going to take the garbage out tonight, but after I do the cat't litter box, so the litter can go in the trash, and that is after I send this work email, and just before I get a shower so that I don't wander around the house smelling like cat poop. I have a plan - trust me to do it - I've never failed to do it in the past.) 

In your cases it needs discussion, not nagging. Is there a reason these things haven't been done? 

The problem with nagging is that it diminishes you in the eyes of the person who you hope loves you. It is a small effect but it gradually leads to contempt and eye-rolling. When someone loves you, you have a lot of influence over them, don't squander it on getting them to take the garbage out on your schedule.





Mrs.Submission said:


> Why is it controlling to expect someone to follow through on what they have already agreed to?
> 
> Shouldn't couples be considerate of each other's priorities?
> 
> For example, if a wife has agreed to make an appointment for her husband, that task shouldn't be completed purely at her convenience if the appointment was very important. I would say the same thing about a husband agreeing to move heavy boxes and then not moving them for six weeks.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> "Husbands"? As in all of them? That is clearly bull****.
> 
> I can get things done, put food on the table, keep the place clean and ensure the bills are paid. I have a habit of leaving cupboard doors open. If a woman thinks it is overall worth busting my balls over closing kitchen cupboards, she can **** off.
> 
> Nagging wears people down. If something is so important that it is worth a psychological assault, then leave him for both of your sakes. When a woman nags a man rather than boosting him, she has completely given up on him and decided that her being right is more important than his potential. She might be right. Leave or support, do not nag.


So you're telling me that if your partner politely asked you to close the cupboard doors, you would be hostile and tell her to eff off?  That's not respectful or mature. 

Women aren't required to "boost" men when they are not keeping their promises like responsible adults. It isn't about being right. It is about each partner pulling their weight without being reminded several times. It is hardly "psychological assault" to expect your partner to follow through on tasks they already agreed to or be mindful of not doing certain things that are annoying. 

My husband hates it when I say disparaging things about my body. When I still do so, he will quickly remind me that he doesn't like it when I am so critical of my appearance. Since I care about my husband and his feelings, I try to remember to be positive about how I look. Why would I get angry at him for something so simple? Just because my husband is asking me to do it and I have to prove that I can argue with him? :scratchhead:

I find it interesting how a lot of men who have posted in this thread think that wives should just quietly accept that their husbands just don't feel like doing things sometimes. I'm sure that wives who cook every evening and do most of the child rearing do not feel like it all the time.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Joey2k said:


> If I said I would do it then I will. But what if I never said I was going to do it? What if it's something she wants and keeps pressuring me about that I don't particularly care about? *Am I obligated to do something I don't care about just because she wants it?*
> 
> If that were the case, then there would be no threads complaining about sexless marriages.



You should be honest and tell your wife that you don't care about it and you won't do it. She can then decide what options she has left.

What I find interesting is that I will ask for something or try to do something on my own. then I get thwarted so I stop.

Then later on, I am told that I didn't "try hard enough" to achieve whatever. How mind f^cking is that!!!

So I've learned to get closure on everything I do and want. And that could be interpreted as nagging.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure that I would say that nagging always comes from someone who is not taking responsibility. Sometimes the person who does the nagging has a very good point.
> 
> If one spouse basically refuses to do reasonable things.. for example take responsibly for 50% of housework since they both work... it's not fair to the spouse who gets stuck doing everything to call them a nag because they try to talk and reason with the other to take responsibility for some of the housework.
> 
> ...


If a spouse is that crap, **** them off. Unfortunately, there are spouses who are a waste of space (of both sex), and nagging will not cure that. The spouse who sits on their behind eating Cheerios and watching TV will not be saved by nagging and the decent spouse should be saved it.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Mrs.Submission said:


> So you're telling me that if your partner politely asked you to close the cupboard doors, you would be hostile and tell her to eff off?  That's not respectful or mature.
> 
> Women aren't required to "boost" men when they are not keeping their promises like responsible adults. It isn't about being right. It is about each partner pulling their weight without being reminded several times. It is hardly "psychological assault" to expect your partner to follow through on tasks they already agreed to or be mindful of not doing certain things that are annoying.
> 
> ...


That is not what I wrote. You can read what I am telling you by what I actually wrote rather than what you pretend. If I work hard, do housework, treat her right and get a hard time because I left a cupboard door open, then **** her.

I also do not apply this to one sex or the other, if I had a wife who worked and cleaned and I only nagged her for leaving a cupboard door open and was determined that she could not relax, I would be unreasonable.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> That is not what I wrote. You can read what I am telling you by what I actually wrote rather than what you pretend. If I work hard, do housework, treat her right and get a hard time because I left a cupboard door open, then **** her.
> 
> I also do not apply this to one sex or the other, if I had a wife who worked and cleaned and I only nagged her for leaving a cupboard door open and was determined that she could not relax, I would be unreasonable.


I am merely trying to understand the need for anger and profanity if you are given what you deem to be a "hard time". After all, you are an intelligent adult who is capable of communicating respectfully. 

I don't see what is so difficult about being considerate of your partner's wishes or reasonable requests. It would take less than 30 seconds to shut a cupboard door, so there would be no need for a power struggle. Do you feel that you are being attacked if your partner asks you not to do specific things that annoy her? My husband and I do not swear at each other when we disagree because we don't think that kind of behavior is healthy. We like to take breaks from each other if a discussion is becoming a heated argument.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
surprisingly this often doesn't work. I've personally experience saying "I'm not doing X" but still been nagged. (this was about something that there was no particular reason I should do). 

Another annoying habit similar to nagging is when a spouse gets angry and does something because you haven't done it yet. For example if my wife wife wants me to take the garbage out *now*, and I want to wait until it fits in with the other things I am doing (the trucks don't arrive until tomorrow), she will sometimes get mad and do it herself. Often associated with hurting herself because she is rushing / angry. 

I think the rule is: If your partner says they will do something, believe them up until it is actually too late for them to do it. If they have said that they will not do something, then don't nag. Discuss if you think its necessary.





staarz21 said:


> That's when you tell her to stop asking you because you "ain't going to do it!"
> 
> Seriously. If you don't feel like doing something and she asks you, tell her, " I really don't want to do that. I'm not going to." Maybe even offer her a solution as to how she can complete the task.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Also, think before nagging. My wife used to nag me that I often left the lights on when left a room. Eventually I let her know that she also frequently forgot and left the lights on - and that I'd just turn them off without complaining, and had been doing so for years. 

Similarly with chores - if she misses something, I just do it, I don't view it as some sort of power struggle, I don't feel like I have to confront her with her tragic failure to put the newspapers in recycling. 

She has gradually realized that this was going on and her nagging is very minimal now.

If the splitting of chores is imbalanced, then address that. If someone just forgets a chore - do it. No one is keeping score.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Also, think before nagging. My wife used to nag me that I often left the lights on when left a room. Eventually I let her know that she also frequently forgot and left the lights on - and that I'd just turn them off without complaining, and had been doing so for years.
> 
> Similarly with chores - if she misses something, I just do it, I don't view it as some sort of power struggle, I don't feel like I have to confront her with her tragic failure to put the newspapers in recycling.
> ...


This is very well put. Keeping score in a relationship and keeping ahead has no place in a healthy relationship.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Joey2k said:


> If I said I would do it then I will. But what if I never said I was going to do it? What if it's something she wants and keeps pressuring me about that I don't particularly care about? Am I obligated to do something I don't care about just because she wants it?
> 
> If that were the case, then there would be no threads complaining about sexless marriages.


You ARE obligated to TELL HER that you don't want to do it. As in any marriage, you are obligated to provide communication and acknowledgment about what you will and won't do. What you are describing is EXACTLY what my H does - I ask him to do something, he has wheels turning in his head but doesn't share with me what he's thinking. Doesn't even acknowledge that I ASKED him anything. It leaves me powerless, frustrated, uncertain, and, if I dare ask him again - since I never heard whether he would do it or not - then it's ME who is the bad guy?

Do you even see the problem here?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> ​Did you know that there are men who nag too? It's actually very common. My son's father was like that. It was constant. It was not that I was not doing things that he brought up, it was that no matter how much I did, it was not enough, I did it wrong and I should have guessed at everything else he wanted done that he refused to do himself. And talk about having to be right? He had to be right in everything. That was definitely most important.
> 
> My point is that trying to make this about women being naggers and men poor victims is not going to go over very well since there are a lot of women who have nagging husbands and do not appreciate being talked to as though all women have one mind and all behave in the same way... thus need to be schooled.


My H doesn't nag when I do something he doesn't like. He just goes behind me and RE-DOES it the way he likes it. It is just as destructive as nagging. When he kept re-mowing the lawn because I didn't do it well enough, I finally told him 'guess what? You just gave yourself another chore. I quit.'


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> Absolutely, and the advice would be the same.
> 
> Nagging comes when someone is not taking responsibility, but is complaining nonetheless. They are too dead inside to do it, but wants to wear the other person who does take responsibility rather than support them.


My, that's a grand assumption, isn't it?

Mr The Other, I think there are two subthreads going on here. Some of us are talking about a person 'nagging' because the other person DIDN'T DO what they said they would do.

YOU (and maybe others; not sure) are talking about a person 'nagging' because they're unhappy and picking on the spouse.

Agreed?

Then it would make sense that when you respond to someone, you're talking about the same subject.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> If a spouse is that crap, **** them off. Unfortunately, there are spouses who are a waste of space (of both sex), and nagging will not cure that. The spouse who sits on their behind eating Cheerios and watching TV will not be saved by nagging and the decent spouse should be saved it.


Your wife was Love Busted every day that you left the cupboard open. It HURT her, it UPSET her, you KNEW it hurt her, but you didn't care enough about her to do the one thing that would have STOPPED hurting her and would have taken so little effort - closing a cupboard. And when she complained, you divorced her and blamed it all on her?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> You should be honest and tell your wife that you don't care about it and you won't do it. She can then decide what options she has left.
> 
> So I've learned to get closure on everything I do and want. And that could be interpreted as nagging.


This is one of the single most deadly things to our marriage - that my H won't take care of our house and that he won't ACKNOWLEDGE that I've asked him to take care of it, so he leaves me in limbo. Which is why my IC told me I had to stop expecting anything from him after 35 years, and find a way to get it done myself. She even gave me the name of a contractor. Like I said, I have a page-long list of things that have been broken on this house, going back 12 years (and I have no money to pay anyone).

So I've been trying to learn how to do things myself. When I downloaded instructions on how to install the new toilet that had been sitting in the bathroom uninstalled for THREE YEARS, and when I asked him if I was holding the right tools...THEN he jumped up off the bed and installed the toilet. To keep ME from doing it wrong. Which is the only way I've discovered to get anything done - start doing it myself so he jumps in and does it.

The problem with THAT is that HE then nags ME for 'making' him do stuff, 'running' his life, 'dictating' what he has to do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> That is not what I wrote. You can read what I am telling you by what I actually wrote rather than what you pretend. If I work hard, do housework, treat her right and get a hard time because I left a cupboard door open, then **** her.
> 
> I also do not apply this to one sex or the other, if I had a wife who worked and cleaned and I only nagged her for leaving a cupboard door open and *was determined that she could not relax*, I would be unreasonable.


So...by lifting your arm to push a cupboard closed on the way out of the room after you got something out of that cupboard...that is causing you not to relax? Uh, ok.

Clearly bigger issues were at play in your marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Another annoying habit similar to nagging is when a spouse gets angry and does something because you haven't done it yet. For example if my wife wife wants me to take the garbage out *now*, and I want to wait until it fits in with the other things I am doing (the trucks don't arrive until tomorrow), she will sometimes get mad and do it herself. Often associated with hurting herself because she is rushing / angry.


Agreed.



richardsharpe said:


> I think the rule is: If your partner says they will do something, believe them up until it is actually too late for them to do it. If they have said that they will not do something, then don't nag. Discuss if you think its necessary.


What if there is no real time frame? Our grout in our kitchen has been cracked all the way around the counter for nearly 5 years. The water falls behind the counter and creates mold. Now and then, the mold smell gets so bad it makes me gag. I've bought grout, I've bought a grinder (H said the old grout had to be ground away first), I've bought more grout, I've tried to buy grout again, and each time he tells me stay away from it, he's going to do it. God only knows what's behind those cabinets by now.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> Agreed.
> 
> What if there is no real time frame? Our grout in our kitchen has been cracked all the way around the counter for nearly 5 years. The water falls behind the counter and creates mold. Now and then, the mold smell gets so bad it makes me gag. I've bought grout, I've bought a grinder (H said the old grout had to be ground away first), I've bought more grout, I've tried to buy grout again, and each time he tells me stay away from it, he's going to do it. God only knows what's behind those cabinets by now.


That is a genuine complain. If he fixed all that one day, but left a cupboard door open, would you thank him for the work or complain about the door?

As what I have written has been widely read as "what right has a woman to criticise me for being sloppy when I demand constant appreciation" (enough people have read it that way for the blame to be on my phrasing), let me put it another way - 
If I came home to a sparkling clean home, with a meal on the table and her applying the lipstick and leaving it on the counter as a final touch when she has made herself look delightful - what I should not do is complain at her for leaving the lipstick on the counter and remind her of the countless times I have dome that. If a spouse works hard and genuinely cares about the partner, worry more about giving them support and a boost rather than worrying about what is petty.

Nagging is the obsession over your partners short comings and letting them know it is not good enough. If the problems are serious, then I would not consider it nagging.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> That is a genuine complain. If he fixed all that one day, but left a cupboard door open, would you thank him for the work or complain about the door?


Are you kidding? If he fixed all that stuff, I'd be all over him. In a good way! He'd become 'attractive' to me again. Today, when I look at him, all I see is decades of disappointment.

Have you read His Needs Her Needs? It's the best book I've ever read on relationships - it's based on basic psychology. You learn what's important to your partner (their Emotional Needs) and you learn what things YOU do that upset your partner (Love Busters). To have a good relationship, you meet that person's top 5 ENs and you make a concerted effort to eliminate the LBs that you do to upset them. The added benefit is that when YOU do this, the other person feels more love for you and then wants to do the same for YOU.

And understand that those ENs/LBs fluctuate over time based on circumstances. If my H was taking care of our house and I wasn't ashamed of it (and it's a 4500-sq-ft house on the best street in the neighborhood, and I can't invite people in), my top EN wouldn't be domestic support any more and his biggest LB wouldn't be not fixing things. 

It's possible to remove all LBs and just have a loving relationship where both are happy - IF both are willing to work on it.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> My, that's a grand assumption, isn't it?
> 
> Mr The Other, I think there are two subthreads going on here. Some of us are talking about a person 'nagging' because the other person DIDN'T DO what they said they would do.
> 
> ...


I have tried (badly, clearly) clarifying that I am talking about obsessing over pettiness to the extent that there will always be something to complain about. This is as opposed where there are big problems.

"Your wife was Love Busted every day that you left the cupboard open. It HURT her, it UPSET her, you KNEW it hurt her, but you didn't care enough about her to do the one thing that would have STOPPED hurting her and would have taken so little effort - closing a cupboard. And when she complained, you divorced her and blamed it all on her?"
That did not happen. I am surprised that leaving a cupboard door open a couple of times a weeks is seen as a serious reason for break up. But, fine. If someone (male of female) thinks that when person (male or female) cooks a meal for them and cleans up the kitchen, that a cupboard door being open outweighs all that - then fine - leave.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> I can get things done, put food on the table, keep the place clean and ensure the bills are paid. I have a habit of leaving cupboard doors open. If a woman thinks it is overall worth busting my balls over closing kitchen cupboards, she can **** off.
> 
> Nagging wears people down. If something is so important that it is worth a psychological assault, then leave him for both of your sakes. When a woman nags a man rather than boosting him, she has completely given up on him and decided that her being right is more important than his potential. She might be right. Leave or support, do not nag.


Oh....don't get me started on cupboard doors! In the house I shared with my ex, I was the EXACT height to hit my head on open upper cupboard door corners I couldn't see when I was looking down at what I was doing on the counter. So many painful bumps just from moving around in the kitchen! I asked over and over if my ex could get into the habit of closing the cupboard doors so I wouldn't get hurt. No change ever happened, and I'm sure I sounded like the worst nag.

BUT - the bigger picture was that my ex was selfish, inconsiderate and self-absorbed, and unwilling to put in a little effort to avoid causing me pain. That attitude, and the greater infractions it engendered, wore me down, and eventually I was out of there.

If someone has to nag, it's usually because they feel the other person is being inconsiderate. When one person does all the chores to avoid nagging the other person to do their fair share, resentment builds.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> what I should not do is complain at her for leaving the lipstick on the counter and remind her of the countless times I have done that. If a spouse works hard and genuinely cares about the partner, worry more about giving them support and a boost rather than worrying about what is petty.
> 
> Nagging is the obsession over your partners short comings and letting them know it is not good enough. If the problems are serious, then I would not consider it nagging.


It's obvious that you and I are talking about two different versions of nagging, both based on our own experiences. Yes?

I will say, though, that most women 'nag' when something isn't getting done or when they are unhappy about something else. So YOU can have a happy marriage, it behooves you to figure out what she is REALLY unhappy about and address that. 

Of course, some women are just batsh*t crazy and will make a man's life hell. In which case, you're better off moving on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> I am surprised that leaving a cupboard door open a couple of times a weeks is seen as a serious reason for break up. But, fine. If someone (male or female) thinks that when person (male or female) cooks a meal for them and cleans up the kitchen, that a cupboard door being open outweighs all that - then fine - leave.


Now, see, my H leaves his dresser drawers open. EVERY SINGLE DAY. I've asked him at least a dozen times to close them because when I walk in that room, it upsets me. He won't. His mom walked around behind him til he was 26, cleaning up his crap, picking up his dirty clothes, closing his dresser drawers. So he won't do it. And every single day, I love him a little bit less because HIS decision to not care, to 'be surprised' that it upsets me, proves to ME that he loves me less than he loves himself. 

So, yes, if you do this every time you cook you leave it open even though she told you it bothered her...that's on you.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> Are you kidding? If he fixed all that stuff, I'd be all over him. In a good way! He'd become 'attractive' to me again. Today, when I look at him, all I see is decades of disappointment.
> 
> Have you read His Needs Her Needs? It's the best book I've ever read on relationships - it's based on basic psychology. You learn what's important to your partner (their Emotional Needs) and you learn what things YOU do that upset your partner (Love Busters). To have a good relationship, you meet that person's top 5 ENs and you make a concerted effort to eliminate the LBs that you do to upset them. The added benefit is that when YOU do this, the other person feels more love for you and then wants to do the same for YOU.
> 
> ...


As you said, I think we are talking cross-purposes. I am writing in the context of having a partner who makes a huge effort and urging letting the little things go. The context you are writing in is when a partner is not putting in any commitment. Recognising the difference between these scenarios is key and you are certainly capable of that I believe. The scenario you describe is the opposite of nagging. For myself, when I came home and my wife had done some housework, I was positive and encouraging.

We will always have LBs and should eliminate them as much as we can. However, if we focus on the other person's LB's, then we will always find something that we can complain about before anything positive. People should work on these. In the example I am giving, I cited one, reduced it but not completely. If I had a wife who acted like that, I would be delighted. From what you say, you would be pleased to have that in a partner too. 

If the partner is willing to work on something, their partner is a lucky person. Even, if there are still faults to be found.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> It's obvious that you and I are talking about two different versions of nagging, both based on our own experiences. Yes?
> 
> I will say, though, that most women 'nag' when something isn't getting done or when they are unhappy about something else. So YOU can have a happy marriage, it behooves you to figure out what she is REALLY unhappy about and address that.
> 
> Of course, some women are just batsh*t crazy and will make a man's life hell. In which case, you're better off moving on.


I would very much agree with that. If someone feels they are taken for granted, a small thing that illustrate this will magnify. If I was a slob, who tramped dirty boots all over her freshly cleaned floor, and spilt food, I would be an inconsiderate slob, which would be the big issue. I might in that scenario claim it is nagging over a few crumbs, but I would be missing the bigger picture.

If my wife had cleaned the floor and my only comment was I did not like the way she put the mop back, that is nagging.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> Now, see, my H leaves his dresser drawers open. EVERY SINGLE DAY. I've asked him at least a dozen times to close them because when I walk in that room, it upsets me. He won't. His mom walked around behind him til he was 26, cleaning up his crap, picking up his dirty clothes, closing his dresser drawers. So he won't do it. And every single day, I love him a little bit less because HIS decision to not care, to 'be surprised' that it upsets me, proves to ME that he loves me less than he loves himself.
> 
> So, yes, if you do this every time you cook you leave it open even though she told you it bothered her...that's on you.


That would be. But here the bigger issue is that he is being constantly disrespectful and that is what annoys you. If he changed and did that stuff as a reflection of an improved attitude, I hope you could love him a little bit more rather than finding something else to complain about instead? I believe you would. It also has the context that I am assuming if it is just your husband in the house, the place gets messier and if it were just you, the places gets tidier. 

What I write about complaining about the one taking responsibility is important to how I personally interpret it, you take responsibility and if he complained you were not doing enough tidying as the place is messy with his dirty clothes everywhere, that is what I classify as nagging. Complaining without taking responsibility.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I think there is a conclusion,
Nagging is either complaining about an issue that marks a general lack of effort or respect from the other partner. In which case that partner should work on their lack of effort or respect.
- this reflects the situation you are unfortunately familiar with.

Or it is when there is a constant seeking for something to complain about that blocks out all positives.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Honestly are the dresser draws the problem? You could close them in a second or two. I think they have become a proxy, a symbol for his general laziness and THAT is what you need to discuss with him. Wasting energy and emotional capital nagging about a trivial item doesn't help, it just makes your (valid) complaints about his overall behavior seem trivial.

It puts him in a position where if he closes the drawers he has "given in" you your complaining and validated your nagging. He worries that this will create a very undesirable pattern.

I think you need to have a serious discussion of the real problems. 





turnera said:


> Now, see, my H leaves his dresser drawers open. EVERY SINGLE DAY. I've asked him at least a dozen times to close them because when I walk in that room, it upsets me.
> snip
> .


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

This sounds dumb, but it can work:
A small dry erase board. 

I have one mounted near the door to the garage to remind myself of upcoming chores, etc. If my wife asks me about doing something more that once, I tell her to put it on the board. If something is on that board, I will do it, and in a timely manner.

Another idea for the men; I have a similar board in the garage and barn. I keep the dates, mileage, hours etc of car, truck, tractors, tillers, etc when I've changed oil, etc. Also have the filter info on there. These simple boards have really been a big help. Only issue is the one in the barn will have the marker dry up quicker.

Anyone else dislike being asked about upcoming meals during dinner? I just can't concentrate like that. Once, in frustration, I said, "can I finish eating this meal before we have to plan the next?" Since them, its been much easier.

For the woman with the dresser drawer problem. Get a big sack of bite sized Reese's cups. Every time you see him close the drawers, give him one. Pretty soon he'll be tugging your skirt saying "I closed the drawer."


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> surprisingly this often doesn't work. I've personally experience saying "I'm not doing X" but still been nagged. (this was about something that there was no particular reason I should do).
> 
> Another annoying habit similar to nagging is when a spouse gets angry and does something because you haven't done it yet. For example if my wife wife wants me to take the garbage out *now*, and I want to wait until it fits in with the other things I am doing (the trucks don't arrive until tomorrow), she will sometimes get mad and do it herself. Often associated with hurting herself because she is rushing / angry.
> ...


Could there be a reason that it would be better for the trash to be taken out when she asked?

For example, I'm cooking dinner, the trash is over flowing. So I take out the full bag and put in a new one. I don't want to full one around because the dogs might get into it. I've heard that sometimes the issue is toddlers getting into trash. 

Or maybe I'm cooking, need a place to put trash and I have my hands in the food. So I ask to have him take out the trash and put in a new bag.

In cases like the above, it's reasonable that you would just do as she asks. She's cooking dinner and could use some help. 

If there is no pressing issues like the above, then you might want to look deeper. Perhaps she's very irritated and asking/nagging for you to take out the trash is a surrogate for what is really going on.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> 
> Honestly are the dresser draws the problem? You could close them in a second or two. I think they have become a proxy, a symbol for his general laziness and THAT is what you need to discuss with him. Wasting energy and emotional capital nagging about a trivial item doesn't help, it just makes your (valid) complaints about his overall behavior seem trivial.
> 
> ...


I think you pretty well describe the real problem. 

Her expecting him to do something that 99% of responsible adults do without thinking is not the problem. 

And no, she should not go around doing things like closing dresser draws behind a grown man. That's him putting his responsibility on her. That's a crock.

For him it's a war of the wills. For him it's not about the dresser draws. He harbors resentment towards his wife. The dresser draws are a passive aggressive way for him to stick it to her and for him to maintain not 'giving in'. 

Tunera, look at the unpacked boxes, the hole in the ceiling... all are probably the same passive aggressive tactic.

Unpacked boxes that take up most of a room in the house are a HUGE in-your-face show. They make it so that family members cannot use the room. They are also a HUGE constant reminder that he's in charge, he'll do whatever he wants and f'you and everyone else in the family.

The hole in the ceiling.. same thing. Except he also will not allow you to call someone to fix it, right? That's him exercising even stronger passive aggressive tactics to maintain control. Call someone to fix the ceiling. He will get super angry and super controlling because you would be upsetting his chest beating attempts at control.

So yea, the real issue needs to be looked at. The problem is not that Tunera is a nag. The real problem is that her husband is using passive aggressive tactics to establish control.. and it's that Tunera is putting up with it for a long time.

Anyone who thinks that "small things" like leaving kitchen cabinets open, lipstick and makeup on the counter, dresser drawers open, boxes for decades, and holes in ceilings are not real issues needs to read the book "Love Busters". Humans are complex in some ways and pretty simple in other ways. We are simple in that all of us have things that are Love Busters for us. The fact is that the more our spouse does these love busters, the more it diminishes our love for them. 

Sure we can work at reframing how we view certain love busters, but some we really should not do that with. Things like boxes taking up the house for years and holes in the ceiling are not things that we should spend our energy reframing. The person doing the love busting on those needs to grow up.

We all have things that are for us, Love Busters. When our spouse continuously does something that they know is a love buster for us, they are not doing it because it's just who they are. They are doing it as a passive aggressive way to dig at us.

If a person has a reasonable spouse, it's not hard to identify their love busters. They have most likely told you what they are. So just stop love busting. It's not hard. Do it out of love. Hopefully your spouse will care enough to stop their love busting too.

If you have an unreasonable spouse like one who is nagging and picking on your constantly for no good reason or one who refuses to stop love busting, refuses to take responsibility for those things that they should.. you need to look very closely at why you are still with this person.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Honestly are the dresser draws the problem? You could close them in a second or two. I think they have become a proxy, a symbol for his general laziness and THAT is what you need to discuss with him. Wasting energy and emotional capital nagging about a trivial item doesn't help, it just makes your (valid) complaints about his overall behavior seem trivial.
> 
> It puts him in a position where if he closes the drawers he has "given in" to your complaining and validated your nagging. He worries that this will create a very undesirable pattern.
> ...


richard, I've had 6 or 7 such discussions in the last five years, since the date when I'd had so much that I said go to MC or I am leaving. As for the drawers, I've asked him twice to close them. In 35 years. If you consider that nagging, I don't know what to say.

That said, this thread has been cathartic, because today, yet again, he did something to hurt me, and I just about moved out, and we did have - yet again - another discussion. He says he gets it now, and we came to what is supposed to be a solution. We'll see.

We did discuss the grout, after I blew up and almost left. He said I haven't done it because it's a big job. I said let me help you. Surely you don't have to be a brain surgeon to grind out the old grout; I could do that and you could come along behind me and put in the new stuff. (third time I've suggested this) He said, this time (I assume because he could tell I was well and truly done), 'that might work; we'll go get a tool tomorrow.' Like I said, we'll see.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> Your wife was Love Busted every day that you left the cupboard open. It HURT her, it UPSET her, you KNEW it hurt her, but you didn't care enough about her to do the one thing that would have STOPPED hurting her and would have taken so little effort - closing a cupboard. And when she complained, you divorced her and blamed it all on her?


:iagree: Exactly. My personal experience has been that men like to blame women when a relationship fails. Obviously, not all men do this and there are women who cannot take responsibility for their actions. I am only speaking of what I have noticed in my life and even on this forum. 

I once dated a very immature and selfish man. He never had a relationship last longer than 6 months because the women "turned into the ice queen." I came to realize that women were turned off by his self centered attitude; he expected sex on demand without being kind and caring in return. Thank God I got away from him. That man will die alone with only his dogs to keep him company. Nobody wants someone who is as self absorbed as a toddler.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> Now, see, my H leaves his dresser drawers open. EVERY SINGLE DAY. I've asked him at least a dozen times to close them because when I walk in that room, it upsets me. He won't. *His mom walked around behind him til he was 26, cleaning up his crap, picking up his dirty clothes, closing his dresser drawers. *So he won't do it. And every single day, I love him a little bit less because HIS decision to not care, to 'be surprised' that it upsets me, proves to ME that he loves me less than he loves himself.
> 
> So, yes, if you do this every time you cook you leave it open even though she told you it bothered her...that's on you.


Men whose mothers coddle them like this become spoiled husbands. 

This is why I made it a rule to never date anyone who lived at home past age 25 or anyone whose Mommy helped him with everything.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Mrs.Submission said:


> :iagree: Exactly. My personal experience has been that men like to blame women when a relationship fails. Obviously, not all men do this and there are women who cannot take responsibility for their actions. I am only speaking of what I have noticed in my life and even on this forum.
> 
> I once dated a very immature and selfish man. He never had a relationship last longer than 6 months because the women "turned into the ice queen." I came to realize that women were turned off by his self centered attitude; he expected sex on demand without being kind and caring in return. Thank God I got away from him. That man will die alone with only his dogs to keep him company. Nobody wants someone who is as self absorbed as a toddler.


Fair enough. My marriage failed as I was a spoilt brat who refused to lift a finger like all husbands. Thank you for your insight, I now have closure.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mrs.Submission said:


> Men whose mothers coddle them like this become spoiled husbands.
> 
> This is why I made it a rule to never date anyone who lived at home past age 25 or anyone whose Mommy helped him with everything.


She was living in his house when I moved in, and she was there for another 3 or 4 years. Which I was fine with, I love his mom. But when she decided to move out, the whole house fell apart, and I didn't know why! It took me years to figure out that he wasn't sabotaging me, he simply wasn't aware that someone wasn't going around behind him cleaning up. 

We even discussed this today. After we 'ironed' everything out, I said 'Can I ask one favor of you?' He said sure; I said will you please close your dresser drawers? He was mystified, so I explained that he left them open every single day, and it upset me; I need drawers closed; I need a little bit of order in this house full of chaos. He said 'I don't close my drawers?' I said no, you don't. I'm going to assume that your mom went around behind you closing them, and he admitted that she did. 

We also talked a lot about how I pick up his trash, his clothes, his dirty dishes, well, basically everything. I do 95% of all the cleaning, 100% of the laundry, 90% of the cooking, 90% of the dishwashing, and all I'm asking is that you stop getting mad at me for little things like tearing up a shipping box from a week ago that you decided just today you needed (that's what started today's blowup - him giving me the 'face' when he learned I did that; how dare I clean up the mess he left in the living room all week, right?).

So, all in all, a good discussion. Let's see if it takes this time.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> She was living in his house when I moved in, and she was there for another 3 or 4 years. Which I was fine with, I love his mom. But when she decided to move out, the whole house fell apart, and I didn't know why! It took me years to figure out that he wasn't sabotaging me, he simply wasn't aware that someone wasn't going around behind him cleaning up.
> 
> We even discussed this today. After we 'ironed' everything out, I said 'Can I ask one favor of you?' He said sure; I said will you please close your dresser drawers? He was mystified, so I explained that he left them open every single day, and it upset me; I need drawers closed; I need a little bit of order in this house full of chaos. He said 'I don't close my drawers?' I said no, you don't. I'm going to assume that your mom went around behind you closing them, and he admitted that she did.
> 
> ...


A man who has not learnt how to look after himself is barely a man. I am always taken aback when I am reminded of this situation.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> She was living in his house when I moved in, and she was there for another 3 or 4 years. Which I was fine with, I love his mom. But when she decided to move out, the whole house fell apart, and I didn't know why! It took me years to figure out that he wasn't sabotaging me, he simply wasn't aware that someone wasn't going around behind him cleaning up.
> 
> We even discussed this today. After we 'ironed' everything out, I said 'Can I ask one favor of you?' He said sure; I said will you please close your dresser drawers? He was mystified, so I explained that he left them open every single day, and it upset me; I need drawers closed; I need a little bit of order in this house full of chaos. He said 'I don't close my drawers?' I said no, you don't. I'm going to assume that your mom went around behind you closing them, and he admitted that she did.
> 
> ...


You are more tolerant than I am. I couldn't be with a man whose mother was living with us; my experience has not been positive with men who are overly attached to their mothers. 

Do you work outside the home? If so, it is completely unfair that you have to do all of the housework. Unfortunately, most wives who work outside are in the same situation as you are. I see it all the time. 

I'm glad that you had a good discussion and I hope your marriage improves.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mrs.Submission said:


> You are more tolerant than I am. I couldn't be with a man whose mother was living with us; my experience has not been positive with men who are overly attached to their mothers.
> 
> Do you work outside the home? If so, it is completely unfair that you have to do all of the housework. Unfortunately, most wives who work outside are in the same situation as you are. I see it all the time.
> 
> I'm glad that you had a good discussion and I hope your marriage improves.


He bought his first house when he was 19. Worked three jobs to afford it. She moved in when he was 21 after she left his dad. So did his little sister and brother. It wasn't that he was overly attached, it was that he was the only stable force in their entire family.

I got laid off 6 months ago (tens of thousands of oil & gas layoffs, to those of you enjoying the low gas prices, lol), and I've been doing side work from home ever since, while applying for hundreds of jobs. The housework issue, however, has been there from day one. I was raised to be silent, do everything, do whatever the man wanted, and not expect anything. It took me 20 years of unhappy marriage before I realized I could expect more.

Now, don't get me wrong. The reason I dated him in the first place is he has a heart of gold, albeit dysfunctional. He won't cheat anyone, ever. He's honest to a fault. He'll help anyone (except me, because I never spoke up, not in the right way). He has never not worked and if he has a crappy job, he'll find a better one. He's a good man. We were just the wrong people to be paired together, with both our versions of dysfunction. It's taken 35 years to get to a place where we can even talk about it realistically.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Mrs.Submission said:


> ...... Unfortunately, most wives who work outside are in the same situation as you are. I see it all the time.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> He bought his first house when he was 19. Worked three jobs to afford it. She moved in when he was 21 after she left his dad. So did his little sister and brother. It wasn't that he was overly attached, it was that he was the only stable force in their entire family.
> 
> I got laid off 6 months ago (tens of thousands of oil & gas layoffs, to those of you enjoying the low gas prices, lol), and I've been doing side work from home ever since, while applying for hundreds of jobs. The housework issue, however, has been there from day one. I was raised to be silent, do everything, do whatever the man wanted, and not expect anything. It took me 20 years of unhappy marriage before I realized I could expect more.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong. The reason I dated him in the first place is he has a heart of gold, albeit dysfunctional. He won't cheat anyone, ever. He's honest to a fault. He'll help anyone (except me, because I never spoke up, not in the right way). He has never not worked and if he has a crappy job, he'll find a better one. He's a good man. We were just the wrong people to be paired together, with both our versions of dysfunction. It's taken 35 years to get to a place where we can even talk about it realistically.


I see. It sounds like your husband has a strong work ethic and cares deeply for his family of origin and the family he created with you. I wonder why his mom stayed so long after her initial difficult period. Was she unable to support herself or live alone for other reasons? 

I was raised to believe that husbands were only to bring home paychecks and impregnate their wives. Wives were responsible for all housework and raising children while working outside the home. While I do have some traditional values, I didn't do all the housework when I was employed. I only do all of the housework now because my husband is the breadwinner.

I'm glad that you learned to stand up for yourself. It is so hard to learn that after a dysfunctional upbringing. Now that you have acknowledged that you're wrong for each other, what do you plan on doing with that information? I would hate to see your long marriage end so I hope that you and your husband can come to some kind of resolution.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I have to apologize. I never meant for this thread to be turned into a ME thread, lol. I just know that I have a lot of issues in this area. Hopefully, people are learning what NOT to do from me!


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> I have to apologize. I never meant for this thread to be turned into a ME thread, lol. I just know that I have a lot of issues in this area. Hopefully, people are learning what NOT to do from me!


I have had a great deal of great advice from you. Typically, it is those that struggle who offer the best advice. Just knowing that there is not always a simple solution can be useful.
While not directly relevant, it is all directly or indirectly relevant and gives insight into how peoples' experience differs. Thank you.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

My husband is a nag. just saying to keep some balance here


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

turnera said:


> I have to apologize. I never meant for this thread to be turned into a ME thread, lol. I just know that I have a lot of issues in this area. Hopefully, people are learning what NOT to do from me!


I think that the discussion of your situation added to this thread. 

As I said earlier not all 'nagging' is the same thing. 

Sometimes a person who is accused of nagging has a valid complaint. And the other is just brushing it off.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think it is a bit more complicated. I have a mental list of the things that need to be done and what I see as an efficient order in which to do them. I believe she has her own similar list. Neither list is critical - the inefficiency of doing things "out of order" is minor in both cases.

My main motivation not to do things in her order is that I may be mentally in the middle of something - could be important like a work email, could be trivial like a computer game. 

I generally feel that if I get the chore done by the time it is needed, then I should be free to schedule it as I want. 

Its not a huge problem in any case, and less bad than it was in the past. 




EleGirl said:


> Could there be a reason that it would be better for the trash to be taken out when she asked?
> 
> For example, I'm cooking dinner, the trash is over flowing. So I take out the full bag and put in a new one. I don't want to full one around because the dogs might get into it. I've heard that sometimes the issue is toddlers getting into trash.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think it is a bit more complicated. I have a mental list of the things that need to be done and what I see as an efficient order in which to do them. I believe she has her own similar list. Neither list is critical - the inefficiency of doing things "out of order" is minor in both cases.
> 
> My main motivation not to do things in her order is that I may be mentally in the middle of something - could be important like a work email, could be trivial like a computer game.
> ...


Richard, I hope you can see that you are the anti-model of the men we are talking about here. Why? Because you WANT to get the things done, you CARE about getting them done. How you go about getting them done rarely matters to the wives. Because you can be trusted to get it done.

Up until a couple years ago, when I laid down the law - stop doing it or I leave - when I'd ask my H to do something (only what I couldn't do myself), he would look me in the eyes, not say a word, and either go take a nap on the couch or go do some 'chore' that HE felt like doing, like trimming trees in the forest behind our back yard. Just so he could NOT do what I asked, on purpose. I recently told him that I felt it was safer for me to ask for something I did NOT want done, just so that the thing I DID want might fall into that category of his of doing something OTHER than what I asked for. A kind of Russian Roullette.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> Richard, I hope you can see that you are the anti-model of the men we are talking about here. Why? Because you WANT to get the things done, you CARE about getting them done. How you go about getting them done rarely matters to the wives. Because you can be trusted to get it done.
> 
> *Up until a couple years ago, when I laid down the law - stop doing it or I leave - when I'd ask my H to do something (only what I couldn't do myself), he would look me in the eyes, not say a word, and either go take a nap on the couch or go do some 'chore' that HE felt like doing, like trimming trees in the forest behind our back yard. Just so he could NOT do what I asked, on purpose. *I recently told him that I felt it was safer for me to ask for something I did NOT want done, just so that the thing I DID want might fall into that category of his of doing something OTHER than what I asked for. A kind of Russian Roullette.


:surprise: Wow! That is incredibly disrespectful! I would have blown up if my husband did such things. I am a calm and diplomatic woman. However, if I am provoked my temper is like a hurricane, destroying everything in my path and not caring who is hurt in the process. Anyone who knows me well says that I am a lovely woman until someone gets on my last nerve. 

My husband once took *six months* to move heavy boxes from the entryway of our apartment. He also took *three years* to get a cell phone and *two years *to paint our bathroom. 

None of these tasks were completed until I screamed like a lunatic after asking a million times. It used to be that he wouldn't take me seriously when I asked nicely. The bathroom debacle was the last time that he procrastinated so much.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> My husband is a nag. just saying to keep some balance here


Indeed. Some men nag and some women nag. There are irresponsible men and women and either men or women can be passive aggressive whiners.

I define nagging as someone not taking responsibility for getting things done, but instead just whining at the other person to get them done. It can be men or women.

Lazy bums use the term to include when they are told to get off the ass. They can be men or women.

I think the disagreement comes to whether we consider that all husbands are lazy bums who contribute nothing, while their universally put-upon wives do everything. turnera descibes this depressing scenario. tunera also advised me on laying down the law when my wife acted in a similar way, until Mrs.Submission revealed that my ex-wife was actually maltreated and put upon. It seems bizarre that the my apartment is cleaner without her.

I would say it happens that either spouse can be lazy, but there is disagreement on this point.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Bobby5000 said:


> :frown2:
> 
> One of the most common comments from men is that their wives nag or complain. I think there are several components of this and related issues, and some solutions.
> 
> ...


Problem #1 - that woman sounds like she's either a witch in general or a very frustrated person who has resorted to being shrill because she lacks the leadership skills to get her daughter to cooperate.

I totally didn't follow the dialogue on problem #2.

#3: Women and men tend to have different goals for conversation. When I bring up a problem with no solution to my husband, it's because I'm worried and I need to feel he is "with me." I mostly want him to listen to me and, if there is no solution, just be understanding that it worries me, even if it doesn't worry him. 

The worst thing he can do from my perspective - which is what men seem most naturally inclined to do, is tell me why I should not feel the way I feel, why it's pointless to worry, what I should be doing different as a person to fix it, etc. That makes me feel the opposite of understood and magnifies the problem in my mind. Now I'm starting to feel hysterical (and want to switch to my shrill voice...) because he obviously doesn't get my point, doesn't understand, and doesn't care.

SOLUTIONS
1. Yes, some women do seem to be shrill nags, and that may just be their baseline personality. But most of the time, the woman you see nagging is an extremely frustrated person and she HAS said exactly what she wants, thinks, feels, and he husband has dismissed her repeatedly. Over time she has become increasingly shrill in an attempt to get him to take her seriously, and she has become increasingly entrenched in the idea that he doesn't care about what is important to her.

Here is the solution:
What to do with a nagging wife
Excerpt from above link:
_I've counseled many husbands who have been driven out of their homes by wives who simply won't stop criticizing them. What these husbands want is peace, but what they get is war. What can they do to prevent the divorce that usually follows their escape? More to the point, what can they do to satisfy their wives so they'll stop being so critical?..._


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> Problem #1 - that woman sounds like she's either a witch in general or a very frustrated person who has resorted to being shrill because she lacks the leadership skills to get her daughter to cooperate.
> 
> I totally didn't follow the dialogue on problem #2.
> 
> ...


The advice listed is useful. Of the problem is easily fixable by the naggee, then it follows that the solution must be to respond to the requests of the nagger and truely listen to their concerns. In this scenario the advice, have a clean break, out resentment aside and from now on the man makes an effort to listen and be a decent man, will work. However, that is only one scenario and a worthless ass of a man is unlikely to become a decent man (possible but unlikely).

However, orthodox relationship advice often fails, which is why TAM exists. I think there are a great number of people that have had relationships with schmucks who did not respond and the nagger has come to assume that the opposite sex are just like that and need to be nagged. The problem here is that it leads to a decent person becoming nagged completely unfairly and they reasonably become resentful and it creates poison in the relationship and psychologically wearing down the naggee so the relationship becomes a burden they try to maintain with rather than a support. Here the fault is with the original schmuck and with the nagger for blaming the schmuck's sex rather than the schmuck themselves (this is one reason I react negatively to posters who write about "All wives..." or "All husbands....").

There is also a prevailing orthodoxy in the culture shown through adverts of men that could not survive without their women. While a terrible scenario, for the woman it can be reassuring to think that they can just settle for a schmuck who is so useless that they won't be able to leave him and if that man is not a schmuck in the first place he can become one by being treated like an incompetent and getting hideously complacent - you then have a useless, dull, out of shape, lazy man wondering why his wife left him. The fault here is with them both.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> I think there are a great number of people that have had relationships with schmucks who did not respond and the nagger has come to assume that the opposite sex are just like that and need to be nagged. The problem here is that it leads to a decent person becoming nagged completely unfairly and they reasonably become resentful and it creates poison in the relationship and psychologically wearing down the naggee so the relationship becomes a burden they try to maintain with rather than a support. Here the fault is with the original schmuck and with the nagger for blaming the schmuck's sex rather than the schmuck themselves (this is one reason I react negatively to posters who write about "All wives..." or "All husbands....").


I don't really understand this. Let's say woman A has had multiple relationships with schmucks who do not respond. Now she is a knee-jerk nagger because in her mind "all men" are schmucks.

How did she get into a relationship with her current nagee? Either he saw and was fine with the nagging from the start, or things started out smoothly enough, in which case - why is she nagging him *now*? What changed? If the cause is her prejudice from prior relationships, how was she able to not nag long enough to court and get married to the guy? Why would that make her suddenly start nagging? 

I can see her slipping back into a learned behavior more easily, but it seems there must be something in the relationship that has changed the way she feels about her husband that she has fallen back into nagging.

And I agree you can't say "all" regarding any group - because individuals comprise groups. But there are tendencies that more prevalent in different demographics. I have known men who nag and women who try to dismiss them, but the vast majority of the nagging vs. schmuck dynamic is women nagging, men wondering why she has to make such a big deal out of their dismissive attitude.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> I don't really understand this. Let's say woman A has had multiple relationships with schmucks who do not respond. Now she is a knee-jerk nagger because in her mind "all men" are schmucks.


I am saying behavior learnt from dealing with a schmuck is then applied to a decent man. Pushing the schmuck to be a decent man is not nagging, but having a go at the decent man would be.



> How did she get into a relationship with her current nagee? Either he saw and was fine with the nagging from the start, or things started out smoothly enough, in which case - why is she nagging him *now*? What changed? If the cause is her prejudice from prior relationships, how was she able to not nag long enough to court and get married to the guy? Why would that make her suddenly start nagging?
> 
> I can see her slipping back into a learned behavior more easily, but it seems there must be something in the relationship that has changed the way she feels about her husband that she has fallen back into nagging.


If that question was easy to answer, we would not have this thread. I know I sometimes have to be careful not to react to a woman I am in a relationship with in the context of previous relationships and I am sure I (and pretty much everyone else) often fail. Someone who has been cheated on several times might end up being suspicious of their new partner no matter how honest they are.



> And I agree you can't say "all" regarding any group - because individuals comprise groups. But there are tendencies that more prevalent in different demographics. I have known men who nag and women who try to dismiss them, but the vast majority of the nagging vs. schmuck dynamic is women nagging, men wondering why she has to make such a big deal out of their dismissive attitude.


If the man is a schmuck, who needs to be constantly harangued or his habits are so unbearable she would not be able to put up with the relationship, then the only fault she has is is staying with him. Despite the rejection of stereotypes of women, there is a underlying assumption that men are only nagged because they are schmucks, this is not always the case. The only women who started nagging me about cleaning (I keep the place clean) are ones who were muckier than me and blamed me for their mess - it would be as if tunera's husband complained she left a mess behind her. This relationships lasted very briefly, I believe many men are more patient than I am.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> The only women who started nagging me about cleaning (I keep the place clean) are ones who were muckier than me and blamed me for their mess - it would be as if tunera's husband complained she left a mess behind her. This relationships lasted very briefly, I believe many men are more patient than I am.


Did they originally start out not nagging at all and over time escalate to this?

This is weird that they would nag about something like mess, when you are generally neat and they are messier. 

I understand and agree with you regarding people slipping into learned patterns of behavior (maybe they grew up in a house with a lot of nagging and it's the pattern they understand). But I'm really skeptical that women who didn't nag early in the relationship would slip into this mode just out of habit. Especially if this has happened to you in multiple relationship. I really believe nagging is usually the result of frustration in people who don't know more appropriate ways to get their point across.

My new suggested solution:

1. The nagee should take a very close look at himself and see if he isn't actually being glib and dismissive about complaints the nager has made. 

The irrational nagging re cleanliness could be frustration spilling over from other areas. The nagger may not even really be in touch with what has her feeling so critical and frustrated, hence the over-reacting to any mess.

2. The nagee should sit the nagger down for a Come-to-Jesus conversation and explain that it seems she is not happy in the relationship and he wants to know, specifically and explicitly, why. 

3. If she gives reasons, take them seriously no matter how trivial they sound to you, and move to correct what you're doing or not doing that has her feeling this animosity.

4. Explain to her that whatever the reason, you are no longer willing to be spoken to that way. It ends now, or you're gone.

5. If she won't change - separate. 
*
I would also read up on meeting each other's emotional needs if you haven't before. It could be something as simple as despite your best efforts, you aren't meeting her needs, because you don't really understand what they are. She feels disconnected and unloved but can't explain why, and it comes out in her nagging over irrational things.*


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Reading through this thread, I must fall into the category of occasional bat-sh*t crazy. 

My husband is reliable, we both get things done of our own accord, neither of us are lazy and yet there are moments where I verbalize what needs to be done... to him. Whether it's nagging or not, can depend on the scenario and my approach. I agree with bbdad's sentiment that nagging can be something that is said once. There's no place for lists in our house-hold which I learned back in the beginning when hubs and I first moved in together. I was being 'helpful' leaving lists for him. He told me then that he knew what needed to be done and to stop with the lists. Which I did. Still, I have my moments. I try to be aware of it but I'm glad he calls it out for what it is if it does happen. I recognize it's related to feeling stressed.


When there were bigger road-blocks in our marriage, it was largely related to our own resistance of accepting each others love (which was to do with ourselves). That's a broad statement but I think that's what a lot of stuff boils down to - closing ourselves off. It becomes demonstrated in a number of ways through actions. The nagging is an action. The response to the nagging is an action (which can be played out in a number of ways). All of it is a communication to our spouse.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> Did they originally start out not nagging at all and over time escalate to this?
> 
> This is weird that they would nag about something like mess, when you are generally neat and they are messier.
> 
> ...


I confess you do seem very attached to the idea that it must be something the man is doing (you are specific about gender in this case). I actually find your model rather condescending. I think it often comes from insecurity in the woman, either she does not trust men, or feels she is not good enough and has to bring him down to her level. Possibly, nagging gives the feeling of being vital and required if they are insecure in themselves. Telling a clean tidy person to be clean and tidy will provide a feeling of control and importance, and also that you are important to them. Although we are referring to women specifically, I have no doubt it will be considered domineering and controlling in men rather than being called nagging.

Generally, I get to point 5 quickly. You seem to assume that this is not really a problem and that men are just missing something, it rather reminds me of the 90's when IT people blamed the user for every bug and then would show off later than the bug had been fixed. Nagging does tend to be apparent early in a relationship, but there are a large number of naggers out there and most of them are married. Bear in mind, some people who will just nag regardless will be married to some people who will be schmucks regardless.

I am sorry to bring the point to absurdity, but if one partner is physically abusive, we do not think their partner must be really annoying. We also reasonably assume that some people are just more violent than others, equally, some people are just naggers (typically, insecure, passive aggressive people).


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> I confess you do seem very attached to the idea that it must be something the man is doing (you are specific about gender in this case). I actually find your model rather condescending. I think it often comes from insecurity in the woman, either she does not trust men, or feels she is not good enough and has to bring him down to her level. Possibly, nagging gives the feeling of being vital and required if they are insecure in themselves. Telling a clean tidy person to be clean and tidy will provide a feeling of control and importance, and also that you are important to them. Although we are referring to women specifically, I have no doubt it will be considered domineering and controlling in men rather than being called nagging.
> 
> Generally, I get to point 5 quickly. You seem to assume that this is not really a problem and that men are just missing something, it rather reminds me of the 90's when IT people blamed the user for every bug and then would show off later than the bug had been fixed. Nagging does tend to be apparent early in a relationship, but there are a large number of naggers out there and most of them are married. Bear in mind, some people who will just nag regardless will be married to some people who will be schmucks regardless.
> 
> I am sorry to bring the point to absurdity, but if one partner is physically abusive, we do not think their partner must be really annoying. We also reasonably assume that some people are just more violent than others, equally, some people are just naggers (typically, insecure, passive aggressive people).


You're the one asking how to address it, and I'm giving my best answer based on my years of observation as a woman and what I've read and seen work and be helpful.

*You *seem attached to the idea that their is no underlying cause, other than being a nag, for those who nag. If that's true, that nags just nag, then all I can suggest is stay away from them if you don't like it.



But I know there are plenty of women who do not nag, and if you're "getting to #5 pretty quickly" a lot, it's either the women you choose or something you are doing. 

I never nag. I probably should given my husbands propensity for doing oh, maybe .05% of what he promises to do, but I just don't have it in me, I'm not wired that way. My mother on the other hand can't NOT nag, argue, and criticize, no matter how solicitously my step dad treats her. It's just who she is, but this would be obvious from the start to any careful observer.

You might try asking a lot of questions early on in a relationship about their past relationships to see how "bitter" they seem to be to determine if they're going to be the nagging sort once they get comfortable.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I think there has been a misunderstanding. Sorry, I will try to clarify what I mean and I hope I understand you correctly. Excuse me if I seem rude, I will try to be direct and if I did not respect you I would not be replying to you with such a long reply (excuse my ramble).
I have seen nagging in housemates and early in relationships. It has always been a deal breaker for me. I suspect there are two main sources, people being schmucks (which I am not really counting as nagging) or insecurities linked to habits. I have gone over the second one a few times.

I did not ask how to address it. As I gave that impression, then it makes sense that you would give your reasonable approach and sorry for taking umbrage. I actually agree with it.

_"You might try asking a lot of questions early on in a relationship about their past relationships to see how "bitter" they seem to be to determine if they're going to be the nagging sort once they get comfortable."_
- With age and experience I have learnt that . Age and the bitterness seem to often go together (excuse the huge generalisation), suggesting there are many men falling below expectation. I know I have reacted in the past to disappointment by lowering expectations, it is generally a foolish way to do (and common to both sexes) and a reaction to needing to be with someone. 

Just to clarify, this is what I am *NOT* saying "Women! They just nag all the time, they should just do the jobs and leave me to watch TV all day. There is something wrong with them all!"

What I am saying is that there are some useless people whose partners are reduced to treating them like obstinate children.

There are also some people who will just keep whining at their partners regardless, possibly through insecurity or previous experiences.

PS: To add, in my marriage my wife rarely did anything she said she would do. Had I been a woman, I might have been accused of being a nag, instead I was bullying and insensitive. The traits are not unique to either sex, though the labels often are.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WorkingWife said:


> You might try asking a lot of questions early on in a relationship about their past relationships to see how "bitter" they seem to be to determine if they're going to be the nagging sort once they get comfortable.


Or continue to be 100% open and honest with yourself on whether you are contributing to your wife's propensity to nag.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

turnera said:


> Or continue to be 100% open and honest with yourself on whether you are contributing to your wife's propensity to nag.


Yeah, That was my original idea, but it was met with great skepticism.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> I think there has been a misunderstanding. Sorry, I will try to clarify what I mean and I hope I understand you correctly. Excuse me if I seem rude, I will try to be direct and if I did not respect you I would not be replying to you with such a long reply (excuse my ramble).
> I have seen nagging in housemates and early in relationships. It has always been a deal breaker for me. I suspect there are two main sources, people being schmucks (which I am not really counting as nagging) or insecurities linked to habits. I have gone over the second one a few times.
> 
> I did not ask how to address it. As I gave that impression, then it makes sense that you would give your reasonable approach and sorry for taking umbrage. I actually agree with it.
> ...


You did not seem rude to me. I guess I am just confused as to what is the point of this thread. I thought you were asking for ideas because of the "how to address" in your subject line. Now I guess that maybe you were stating the problem and how to address it?

I have definitely seen people nag for both reasons - because they're born to nag, or because they're married to a neglectful, indifferent spouse.

But I have also seen a preponderance of men whose wive's leave them and to everyone else it's like "DUH. Saw that coming years ago." But the guy is genuinely bewildered and NEVER saw it coming because, sure, she was complaining and nagging, but when he ignored her the problem went away, so he figured everything was fine. Really, when she STOPPED nagging is when he should have been alarmed.

This can go both ways, of course, but it seems much more common that men are married to women who are miserable and the guy is perfectly happy (since he does whatever he damn well pleases regardless of his wife's feelings). Despite the nagging, these men seem dumbstruck when their wives leave them.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> *I confess you do seem very attached to the idea that it must be something the man is doing (you are specific about gender in this case). I actually find your model rather condescending. *
> 
> I think it often comes from insecurity in the woman, either she does not trust men, or feels she is not good enough and has to bring him down to her level. Possibly, nagging gives the feeling of being vital and required if they are insecure in themselves. Telling a clean tidy person to be clean and tidy will provide a feeling of control and importance, and also that you are important to them. Although we are referring to women specifically, I have no doubt it will be considered domineering and controlling in men rather than being called nagging.


Now I’m going to try to say this as gently as I can because I think you are a good guy. Here goes. You started this thread with a condescending post, basically accusing owmen across the board of nagging and then you set out to school women. Now you might not have meant all women, but the post sounds like you are saying that all women are naggers and all husbands are poor victims. 

That is why this thread has turned into women trying to tell you that not all women nag. And sometimes what might appear as nagging, or what the man is calling ‘nagging’ is not that at all. Sometimes it’s a woman who has a very legitimate need, a legitimate complaint and a man who flat out does not give a rats behind or who is passive aggressively turning what are very often his responsibilities into a passive aggressive p!ss fight.

And to be fair, the exact opposite can be true too. There are men who nag. In other cases there are men who are married to women who flat out do not give a rats behind or who is passive aggressively turning what are very often, if not usually, his responsibilities into a passive aggressive p!ss fight.

None of these behaviors are gender specific. The language used might be, but the behaviors are not. Though I have heard both men and women accuse their spouse of nagging. I believe that there is a distinct difference between nagging and being controlling and abusive. It the behavior turns into abuse and a need to control the other spouse, it’s not nagging… its abuse & control.

If one starts a thread pointing a finger at one gender and trying to school them in how to behave, one can expect a lot of defensive replies trying to explain that not all people of one gender behave in the accused manner.



Mr The Other said:


> :frown2:
> 
> One of the most common comments from men is that their wives nag or complain. I think there are several components of this and related issues, and some solutions.
> 
> ...


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WorkingWife said:


> You did not seem rude to me. I guess I am just confused as to what is the point of this thread. I thought you were asking for ideas because of the "how to address" in your subject line. Now I guess that maybe you were stating the problem and how to address it?
> 
> I have definitely seen people nag for both reasons - because they're born to nag, or because they're married to a neglectful, indifferent spouse.
> 
> ...


That's called the Walk Away Wife Syndrome.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

turnera said:


> Six weeks? Hah! Try not going through boxes that have moved through THREE houses over a period of 20 years!* And I'm not allowed to touch them*, even though they take up a full garage. Or a garage door that quit opening in the last hurricane...8 years ago. Or holes in the ceiling from 12 years ago. I could go on...


OMG - that's the part I can't handle. It's not that he says he'll do it and then doesn't, it's that he say's he'll do it, then doesn't, then freaks out when I try to take care of it myself.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> That's called the Walk Away Wife Syndrome.


I've heard of that, but I thought the walk away wife syndrome was wifes who really did leave for no good reason - like they didn't like the responsibility of a family and thought the grass was greener out in adolescent party land. Not because they had tried and tried and tried to tell their husband they were not happy and he ignored them and wrote them off as a nag.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> I've heard of that, but I thought the walk away wife syndrome was wifes who really did leave for no good reason - like they didn't like the responsibility of a family and thought the grass was greener out in adolescent party land.


That's what the husbands would like to think or tell themselves.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WorkingWife said:


> I've heard of that, but I thought the walk away wife syndrome was wifes who really did leave for no good reason - like they didn't like the responsibility of a family and thought the grass was greener out in adolescent party land. Not because they had tried and tried and tried to tell their husband they were not happy and he ignored them and wrote them off as a nag.


The name comes from the perception that they walked away from a good marriage for no good reason. In a situation where there is a WAW, the husband is blind sided because he was happy so he though that everything was ok. Sure she 'nagged' and complained sometimes but he thought it was still stuff and thus did not pay attention.

Here's a good write-up on it.


Get Relationship Advice and Solve Marriage Problems with Michele Weiner-Davis - Divorce Busting®


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WorkingWife said:


> I've heard of that, but I thought the walk away wife syndrome was wifes who really did leave for no good reason - like they didn't like the responsibility of a family and thought the grass was greener out in adolescent party land. Not because they had tried and tried and tried to tell their husband they were not happy and he ignored them and wrote them off as a nag.


Everything I've read about it - and trust me I have, as I've been wanting to leave for at least 11 years - says that it describes the women who are busy raising the kids, meeting all the H's needs (so he doesn't see any problem), while her needs are going unmet, until she just can't do it anymore. Most women who leave do so once the kids are out of the house - they're too duty-bound to just leave or uproot the kids - which is why when a woman in her 40s leaves, it's the first thing people think of usually.

Since the man's getting all his needs met, he's blissfully happy and unaware, since he successfully got her to quit asking for anything after a few years of refusing to acknowledge her needs. HE's happy, so SHE should be happy, right?

After her 'duty' is done with the kids, she has nothing left keeping her there. She stopped loving him years ago and only stayed out of duty. So she might as well find a way to be happy for the _rest _of her life. And she already knows it won't be with him.

Now, as for not meeting her needs, my theory is that, in general (generalization, here, folks - of course there will be exceptions), kids are basically raised by the women. The girls grow up knowing they need to do laundry, food, shopping, clothes, cleaning. But the boys grow up hanging out with their friends, sports, getting OUT of chores and knowing their mom will cover for them anyway. So when they marry...guess what they expect? To hang out with friends, do sports (or video games or whatever), getting OUT of chores because they know the WOMAN in their life will do exactly what their mom did - take care of them.

I always said I wanted to have 3 boys so I could raise them differently, lol.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> You did not seem rude to me. I guess I am just confused as to what is the point of this thread. I thought you were asking for ideas because of the "how to address" in your subject line. Now I guess that maybe you were stating the problem and how to address it?
> 
> I have definitely seen people nag for both reasons - because they're born to nag, or because they're married to a neglectful, indifferent spouse.
> 
> ...


Ah, I see the confusion!

I am not the original poster, EleGirl and WorkingWife, I was a little confused as to why I was getting criticism that really should have been applied to him instead.

Understandable, a male voice both with the same avatar. I actually disagree with the OP on several points, one of which is the assumption that only women nag - there are plenty of whiney, ineffective men too. There are also plenty of complacent spouses who are blindsided when their spouses leave.

WorkingWife, I will say the idea that it is common to have the happy husband miserable wife combo is something I have not seen, if nagging is a cliche so is "Happy wife, Happy life". However, we do not mix in the same circles and I perhaps am more likely to hear the male side and you the female side.

This thread was called out (with good reason) for being rather sexist against women. There is a circle going here discussing how marriages go wrong because the man is complacent and does not appreciate how utterly dedicated and selfless the woman is. If that was all that was required and covered real life, I would not have come to TAM - I would have had all the advice I needs posted on Facebook memes. If someone has a **** spouse, it is because of their spouse not their sex.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Now I’m going to try to say this as gently as I can because I think you are a good guy. Here goes. You started this thread with a condescending post, basically accusing owmen across the board of nagging and then you set out to school women. Now you might not have meant all women, but the post sounds like you are saying that all women are naggers and all husbands are poor victims.
> 
> That is why this thread has turned into women trying to tell you that not all women nag. And sometimes what might appear as nagging, or what the man is calling ‘nagging’ is not that at all. Sometimes it’s a woman who has a very legitimate need, a legitimate complaint and a man who flat out does not give a rats behind or who is passive aggressively turning what are very often his responsibilities into a passive aggressive p!ss fight.
> 
> ...


The OP was a chap called Bobby5000. I actually agree with you and stated several times on this thread that I do not see nagging as being a woman only thing and have tried to keep my language gender neutral to reflect this. That was why I was a little stroppy at the accusation.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> The name comes from the perception that they walked away from a good marriage for no good reason. In a situation where there is a WAW, the husband is blind sided because he was happy so he though that everything was ok. Sure she 'nagged' and complained sometimes but he thought it was still stuff and thus did not pay attention.
> 
> Here's a good write-up on it.
> 
> ...


That does sound familiar! Very interesting from your write up:

..._While she's planning her escape, she no longer tries to improve her relationship or modify her partner's behavior in any way. She resigns herself to living in silent desperation until "D Day." Unfortunately, her husband views his wife's silence as an indication that "everything is fine." After all, the "nagging" has ceased. That's why, when she finally breaks the news of the impending divorce, her shell-shocked partner replies, "I had no idea you were unhappy."

Then, even when her husband undergoes real and lasting changes, it's often too late. _...

I remember hearing a speaker say once that what men need to understand is that by the time the woman comes to them and says she wants out - she's already given her all and moved on in her heart. She's done.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> Ah, I see the confusion!
> 
> I am not the original poster, EleGirl and WorkingWife, I was a little confused as to why I was getting criticism that really should have been applied to him instead.


Well, that makes sense!



Mr The Other said:


> ...I actually disagree with the OP on several points, one of which is the assumption that only women nag - there are plenty of whiney, ineffective men too. There are also plenty of complacent spouses who are blindsided when their spouses leave.
> 
> WorkingWife, I will say the idea that it is common to have the happy husband miserable wife combo is something I have not seen, if nagging is a cliche so is "Happy wife, Happy life". However, we do not mix in the same circles and I perhaps am more likely to hear the male side and you the female side.


Yes, I've met some whiney, ineffectual men. Ick, my skin is crawling thinking of one's personality. Ick! 

But the nag and ignore phenomena does seem to usually have something to do with how men and women are wired. I suppose if a wife is actively nagging all the time like the OP describes, then the husband probably is NOT "happy." 

But there is this dynamic that seems to play out again and again where:
1. A woman is unhappy.
2. She tells her husband. If you were to ask her she would say she gave specific details.
3. Her husband says something to mollify her in the moment but never addresses the complaint.
4. Repeat 2 and 3 many, many times.
5. She leaves her husband.
6. Her husband is stunned and desperate. He will swear to you up and down that she never told him there was a problem. Suddenly "he can change, he can do better!"
7. She leaves him anyhow because she is so hurt over years of telling him she was unhappy and he kept doing/not doing what she complained about regardless, so in her mind, obviously, he doesn't give a crap about her.
8. Husband is crushed and devastated but it's too late.

I'm actually so fascinated by the Female: I told him I told him I told him, Male: I had no idea it was serious! dynamic that I've been meaning to start a thread on it. Soon...


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> Well, that makes sense!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the complacent schmuck scenario. In that case the fault lies in the schmuck. For myself, the 'nagging there is nothing of the sort. The phenomenon of nagging is when it is just something that is unrelated to the actions of the man is a different case.

I have come from a marriage where my wife was not contributing, I made it clear I was unhappy, we ended up splitting and she did not see it coming despite an MC trying to tell her as well as me. I had a MC I know privately advise me that the scenario is common with either sex, but is less of a cliche when the woman is being lazy and not recognised as quickly. It does happen both ways, even though many women will politely advise to me to try really listening next time!


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> Everything I've read about it - and trust me I have, as I've been wanting to leave for at least 11 years - says that it describes the women who are busy raising the kids, meeting all the H's needs (so he doesn't see any problem), while her needs are going unmet, until she just can't do it anymore. Most women who leave do so once the kids are out of the house - they're too duty-bound to just leave or uproot the kids - which is why when a woman in her 40s leaves, it's the first thing people think of usually.
> 
> Since the man's getting all his needs met, he's blissfully happy and unaware, since he successfully got her to quit asking for anything after a few years of refusing to acknowledge her needs. HE's happy, so SHE should be happy, right?
> 
> ...


This is exactly how I was raised. My male siblings only had to clean. They never had to learn to cook or do laundry for everyone. Too many men are raised to be selfish and lazy when it comes to relationships, while women are raised to take care of others to their own detriment. 

I've mentioned that my husband had a vasectomy before we met. One of the reasons I married him is I didn't want to be stuck doing all of the child rearing. I have heard too many wives complain about how little their husbands do compared to them. 

Unless one spouse stays at home, housework and child rearing should be split. 

Turnera, you come across as a very tough and no nonsense woman. I don't see you as the type to put up with unfair treatment. What is keeping you in your marriage?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Mr The Other said:


> I have come from a marriage where my wife was not contributing, I made it clear I was unhappy, we ended up splitting and she did not see it coming despite an MC trying to tell her as well as me. I had a MC I know privately advise me that the scenario is common with either sex, but is less of a cliche when the woman is being lazy and not recognised as quickly. It does happen both ways, even though many women will politely advise to me to try really listening next time!


ah, interesting... So when you finally had enough, did she claim to see the light and try to get you back?

That would chafe my hideif I had tried for years to explain to her that she wasn't pulling her weight and even went to counseling to work on things and friends said that *I *needed to listen more/be more understanding of her.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

This thread has gone from "don't women nag? Let's try to understand what is wrong with them!"
to "Aren't men useless!". If you think that is progress it is up to you. 
I had a lazy wife, who would probably have told you she spent all day cleaning. I do not declare that women are useless from that experience, that would be stupid.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I had to go to a stress therapist once - all my unhappiness resulted in me getting a stuck neck muscle that wouldn't uncramp; my doctor asked what I did for fun; I said nothing; he said what would you do if you had the time; I said read; he said when is the last time you sat down and read a book; I said 5 years. So he sent me to a stress therapist. Who told me that 80% of all her patients are women, for the sole reason that they DO take care of everyone else to their own detriment.

As for your question, I was raised with no self esteem - to take care of everyone else, make sure everyone else got what they needed, and to not have a voice. It's taken me this long and 35 years of marriage to even be able to say anything. That notwithstanding, I've been reading for decades, and I've known what needed to be done, I just didn't have the fortitude to do it for myself. So I did what I could to help other people over the years benefit from what I learned and not waste their lives like I did, to learn to stand up for themselves, men AND women.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> ah, interesting... So when you finally had enough, did she claim to see the light and try to get you back?
> 
> That would chafe my hideif I had tried for years to explain to her that she wasn't pulling her weight and even went to counseling to work on things and friends said that *I *needed to listen more/be more understanding of her.


No. It did not happen. I think she still feels like a victim of circumstance.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

It's been an interesting thread. Somewhat emotional and confusing at times. Now it has wandered into obscurity. I have a little something to add in the way of advice tho the nagged. So far we have been advised to really listen because there is a reason, but the nagger will not be able to tell us what it is. And to just change ourselves until the nagger starts to love the person who we aren't.

My advice / experience may be just as useless. All I know is that it did work one time. Here is the reasoning behind it. Nagging is not a productive or relationship positive method of improving behavior. There is science to back this up. The nagger need to come to an understanding that their bad habit is, one not getting results, and two, likely to have unpleasant side effects. Here is what I said the last time that I remember Mrs. Nail nagging me. "I have a mother, I left her to live with you."

Sure I got a cold shoulder for a week or a month. But the message did sink in. Now we can both be adult equal partners in the relationship.
MN


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

turnera said:


> Now, as for not meeting her needs, my theory is that, in general (generalization, here, folks - of course there will be exceptions), kids are basically raised by the women. The girls grow up knowing they need to do laundry, food, shopping, clothes, cleaning. But the boys grow up hanging out with their friends, sports, getting OUT of chores and knowing their mom will cover for them anyway. So when they marry...guess what they expect? To hang out with friends, do sports (or video games or whatever), getting OUT of chores because they know the WOMAN in their life will do exactly what their mom did - take care of them.
> 
> I always said I wanted to have 3 boys so I could raise them differently, lol.


Yep. 

"Girls do more chores than boys and are less likely to get an allowance in exchange for their work. When they do, they are paid less."
Children, Chores, and the Gender Pay Gap at Home - Sociological Images


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

There used to be surveys of housework across Europe. In the UK the press reported the studies showed that British women did pretty much all the housework while their husbands were bone idle. 

When I went to Belgium, women complained (just as they did in the UK) about how no man could just prepare a simple meal and tidy up after themselves. The first time I did that in Belgium in the presence of a Belgian lady, she looked aghast. In England, no woman had ever found it strange. In Belgium, it was true, in the UK it is something women say but there is nothing to it - the survey data said they were both the same. 

Meanwhile, I read surveys published in the press in Denmark. These suggested that British women were the most bone idle, while the men did lots of housework and overall worked far more than the women. That just suits the Danish prejudices against British women and in favor of British men. I do not read anything into them.

Meanwhile, many of my colleagues will have a good hearted grumble about their to-do list for the weekend. In some cases, it is light hearted and they will enjoy doing a few tasks at the weekend, some other will have their wives complaining regardless of what they do. Some of not actually be doing anything. What I will not do is take their work as Gospel as we all have the same shaped genitalia. 

The research is worthless and people pick up on what suits their own prejudice.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> The research is worthless and people pick up on what suits their own prejudice.


LOL, you realize that by saying that, you've basically invalidated your own comment, right?

Because, the only evidence you've offered as to why the research is worthless is your own anecdotal experiences. And you only pick up on what suits your own prejudice. So....


:lol:


It's getting more equal in the U.S. But studies show that women on average still do more housework than men even when both work full time outside the home.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Nynaeve said:


> LOL, you realize that by saying that, you've basically invalidated your own comment, right?
> 
> Because, the only evidence you've offered as to why the research is worthless is your own anecdotal experiences. And you only pick up on what suits your own prejudice. So....
> 
> ...


Sociological studies tend to be of poor quality. Even if they confirm my prejudices. 

The message of this thread is becoming that nagging does not exist as a problem, other than men are useless and need to be pushed. That is nonsense. If a man is that crap, dump him and get a different one. 

My impression is also that women do more around the cleaning and cooking typically. Again, I did not argue otherwise.

I was struggling when I came to this site with a bone-idle wife. Having mad eit clear what I needed, there had been no improvement. The advice, from tunera especially was to come down hard and get rid if no improvement. It was good advice.

I was also told that it was down to my bad communication and that actually she was doing all the housework and I just did not realize. This was stupid, but grounded in the logic that men are lazy and bad at communication.

If a husband is lazy, that is on him. I am annoyed by men who give the "You know how useless us men are at....", it is a pathetic abdication of responsibility. It makes no more sense to blame men as a whole than it would have done if I had blamed women as a whole. 

Had I been advised, "women are just like that, they are just lazy and do not understand" it would have been terrible advice, yet (applied to men rather than women) that is what this thread seems determined to communicate. It is easier to blame a spouses sex than to blame them personally, as you love them and want to let them off. It is also easier to blame the opposite sex as a whole as it shifts all responsibility of yourself.


----------



## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Sociological studies tend to be of poor quality. Even if they confirm my prejudices.
> 
> The message of this thread is becoming that nagging does not exist as a problem, other than men are useless and need to be pushed. That is nonsense. If a man is that crap, dump him and get a different one.
> 
> My impression is also that women do more around the cleaning and cooking typically. Again, I did not argue otherwise.


Meh, I was just pointing out the logical flaw in your comment. 

I don't think this thread is "becoming that nagging does not exist as a problem."

I think it's clear that everyone has agreed some people nag. 

As with every thread in TAM that has a gender divide, it comes down to one or a few people wanting to over-generalize a gender and that gender coming in and saying "hold on, that's not really applicable to most of us" and then ensues an argument over the nuances. JMHO.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Nynaeve said:


> Meh, I was just pointing out the logical flaw in your comment.
> 
> I don't think this thread is "becoming that nagging does not exist as a problem."
> 
> ...


Perhaps, except I would split hairs with a couple of aspects.

I have had a great deal of criticism for generalizing about women as a whole, when I have been one of the few on the thread not to do so. That I have mainly been criticized for saying things that I did not actually say is partly due to posts being wrongly attributed to me, but not entirely.

Also, the logical fallacy would have applied if I had only dismissed studies I disagreed with. Instead I pointed to the variance, regardless of whether I agree with the conclusion. My point was that we are all left with little more than unreliable impressions.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

turnera said:


> I had to go to a stress therapist once - all my unhappiness resulted in me getting a stuck neck muscle that wouldn't uncramp; my doctor asked what I did for fun; I said nothing; he said what would you do if you had the time; I said read; he said when is the last time you sat down and read a book; I said 5 years. So he sent me to a stress therapist. Who told me that 80% of all her patients are women, for the sole reason that they DO take care of everyone else to their own detriment.
> 
> As for your question, I was raised with no self esteem - to take care of everyone else, make sure everyone else got what they needed, and to not have a voice. It's taken me this long and 35 years of marriage to even be able to say anything. That notwithstanding, I've been reading for decades, and I've known what needed to be done, I just didn't have the fortitude to do it for myself. So I did what I could to help other people over the years benefit from what I learned and not waste their lives like I did, to learn to stand up for themselves, men AND women.


Not surprised by the stress therapist's information about his female patients. 

It's great that you have so much insight into the ways that your upbringing affected you. I can relate-I was always made to feel guilty if I stood up to the bullies in my home or thought of myself before everyone else. I had to leave home in order to gain some clarity and confidence. 

You have spend so many years of your life with your husband that I can understand why it wouldn't be so easy to walk away. I just hope that you come to a resolution that doesn't lead to many more years of unhappiness. 11 years is a long time to feel like you want a divorce.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> Ah, I see the confusion!
> 
> I am not the original poster, EleGirl and WorkingWife, I was a little confused as to why I was getting criticism that really should have been applied to him instead..


Opps.. mia culpa :frown2:



Mr The Other said:


> Understandable, a male voice both with the same avatar.


What bothers me is that I purposely checked to make sure you were the OP.. but I was also multi tasking.. not my best moment I guess.



Mr The Other said:


> I actually disagree with the OP on several points, one of which is the assumption that only women nag - there are plenty of whiney, ineffective men too. There are also plenty of complacent spouses who are blindsided when their spouses leave.


agree


Mr The Other said:


> WorkingWife, I will say the idea that it is common to have the happy husband miserable wife combo is something I have not seen, if nagging is a cliche so is "Happy wife, Happy life". However, we do not mix in the same circles and I perhaps am more likely to hear the male side and you the female side.
> 
> This thread was called out (with good reason) for being rather sexist against women. *There is a circle going here discussing how marriages go wrong because the man is complacent and does not appreciate how utterly dedicated and selfless the woman is. *


As I said before, this is because some feel that the OP is an attack on all women. It sorta was. So some women came to make alternative points based on their own situation. Not one woman has said that they, or all women, are/were utterly dedicated and selfless. We all have faults. We know that. We were addressing the broad brushed used in the OP.



Mr The Other said:


> If that was all that was required and covered real life, I would not have come to TAM - I would have had all the advice I needs posted on Facebook memes. * If someone has a **** spouse, it is because of their spouse not their sex. *


That’s the bottom line.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Opps.. mia culpa :frown2:
> 
> 
> What bothers me is that I purposely checked to make sure you were the OP.. but I was also multi tasking.. not my best moment I guess.


Easily done, I actually checked I was not the OP as I became so confused! There were three people making the assumption!



> agree
> 
> As I said before, this is because some feel that the OP is an attack on all women. It sorta was. So some women came to make alternative points based on their own situation. Not one woman has said that they, or all women, are/were utterly dedicated and selfless. We all have faults. We know that. We were addressing the broad brushed used in the OP.


Fair enough. However, there were comments along the line of "Husbands do this...", "Hubands must learn...." and plenty of complaints about how lazy husbands are. Yourself and tunera were not doing this. Mrs.Submission and WorkingWife most certainly were. 




> That’s the bottom line.


I think we generally agree and I am rather pleased this is no exception.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WorkingWife said:


> I'm actually so fascinated by the Female: I told him I told him I told him, Male: I had no idea it was serious! dynamic that* I've been meaning to start a thread on it. Soon*...


We had a thread on this earlier this years... 91 pages... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/253361-why-women-leave-men-they-love.html


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> Easily done, I actually checked I was not the OP as I became so confused! There were three people making the assumption!
> 
> 
> Fair enough. However, there were comments along the line of "Husbands do this...", "Hubands must learn...." and plenty of complaints about how lazy husbands are. Yourself and tunera were not doing this. Mrs.Submission and WorkingWife most certainly were.


We see a lot of that, people do not qualify what they are saying and use inclusive terms "husbands", "wives", "men", "women". I try to remember to quality.. with words like "some", or "my ex", etc.

Sometimes they are just being lazy. Sometimes they really mean it. Without asking we have no idea.



Mr The Other said:


> I think we generally agree and I am rather pleased this is no exception.


Yes I agree >


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> We see a lot of that, people do not qualify what they are saying and use inclusive terms "husbands", "wives", "men", "women". I try to remember to quality.. with words like "some", or "my ex", etc.
> 
> Sometimes they are just being lazy. Sometimes they really mean it. Without asking we have no idea.


True! Except I kept getting told off for generalizing when I was the only one that was not! It makes sense now.
:grin2:



EleGirl said:


> Yes I agree >


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Nynaeve said:


> It's getting more equal in the U.S. But studies show that women on average still do more housework than men even when both work full time outside the home.


I think a lot of that is because women _want _more things done. There are chores that women think absolutely "need" to get done that don't really bother men.

I've had this discussion with friends and coworkers, and an example I like to give is baseboards. Most men lived by themselves or with other male roommates before moving in with their wives or girlfriends. How many of them ever got down on their hands and knees and cleaned baseboards? Most likely none, because we don't really notice or care about having clean baseboards.

You know who does care about clean baseboards? Women. Women clean baseboards and a bunch of other stuff that we men couldn't care less about, and that's why women think they do more. 

A man may have a list of a dozen chores, while a woman's list may be twice that long. If the man does seven or eight of the chores on his list, he will think he has done his share and then some, while the woman gets angry because he isn't helping out enough.


(This is of course all generally speaking. There are men out there who are clean freaks, and women who are more slovenly).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> If I said I would do it then I will. But what if I never said I was going to do it? What if it's something she wants and keeps pressuring me about that I don't particularly care about? Am I obligated to do something I don't care about just because she wants it?
> 
> If that were the case, then there would be no threads complaining about sexless marriages.


There are two things that helped us early in marriage

- His willingness to say I just don't see that ever being a priority for me. 
- My willingness to recognize that because *I* want something doesn't mean *he* has to do it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> You know who does care about clean baseboards? Women. Women clean baseboards and a bunch of other stuff that we men couldn't care less about, and that's why women think they do more.


One thing to consider. Toddler sized people who do things like lick baseboards don't know that they want them clean. That's why their parents have to consider it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> I was struggling when I came to this site with a bone-idle wife. I was also told that it was down to my bad communication and that *actually she was doing all the housework and I just did not realize*. This was stupid, but grounded in the logic that men are lazy and bad at communication.


Quote, please. I don't recall anyone telling you that.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> Quote, please. I don't recall anyone telling you that.


There were plenty of posts saying that the problem with men is this, the problem with husbands is the other etc. I am a man and was a husband, so my post was to challenge the absurd generalizations.

You have always referred to your husband specifically, including good and bad points. However, I know I would sometimes go down the hole of making generalizations of the way women tend to be rather than accepting what my ex-wife and I were doing wrongly. It is a bad an unhelpful habit.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Turnera wrote, You ARE obligated to TELL HER that you don't want to do it. As in any marriage, you are obligated to provide communication and acknowledgment about what you will and won't do. What you are describing is EXACTLY what my H does - I ask him to do something, he has wheels turning in his head but doesn't share with me what he's thinking. Doesn't even acknowledge that I ASKED him anything. It leaves me powerless, frustrated, uncertain, and, if I dare ask him again - since I never heard whether he would do it or not - then it's ME who is the bad guy? Do you even see the problem here? 

First, I am sorry that you are experiencing problems and I hope you look at my suggestions. 

1. You didn't address my first point, why is it women use the nice, complimentary voice at work and ****tail parties and then the tough irritated one with family members. Which voice are you using. 

2. The contractor idea makes some sense, but please put it in a non-accusatory way. Not- because you will not do even the most things around the house, I now have to hire someone and that is ridiculous. Instead, my friend Jane has this very reasonably priced guy and I hope you don't mind if I use him for a few chores. 

3. How is your intimate life. Sometimes the non-responsive woman prompts the non-responsive husband (sequence may be reversed) and neither one wants to do anything for the other. 

4. Have you tried complimenting him on the positive things- it seems like you are negative, that does not work and you add more negative. Read the book Critical Conversations. Seven Habits of Effective People says first try to understand than be understood. What are your husband's concerns. 0 Men are good at tradeoffs; are there things that concern him. 

(Note that in divorces, the first thing the wife's lawyer says is that "you are an enabler," by constantly catering to and accommodating your husband's behavior he learned to get what he wants. He in turn is told, you are an enabler, by accomodating a dominant wife you have taught her to continue. Have you considered assertiveness training. Thus each spouse spends thousands of dollars confident that he/she is right).


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Interesting debate, I first looked and saw no replies and then 9 pages of replies. A few points at the risk of repetition. 

1. Organization I think gathering up various tasks and reviewing them weekly noting priority is sensible. Has anyone tried that. 

2. Voice and tone Most of the woman did not respond to the point about voice and tone. Why do they use the nice voice at work and at social functions and the tough one at home. A family member said, don't treat me like a king, just treat me as well as your casual acquaintances. 

3. Gender stereotypes Politically correct and gender statement are a part of the presidential debate and here. I think there are different traits by men and women, and my focus was primarily on what women can do to become more effective. Men do have a tendency to burrow and hide under stress instead of ventilating and discussing problems. 

4. Doing it my way This is the Frank Sinatra song, the anthem for men. Note it does not say, and I listened to my wife 
because my wife knows more and an intelligent men gets guidance.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Bobby, were you talking to me?

If so, everything you described is everything my IC has told me to do and that I've incorporated when feasible. H has us $100,000 in debt, so I can't afford to hire someone, but I have downloaded instructions for fixing something - like the toilet that sat uninstalled in our master bath for 2 or 3 years - and then let him see me attempting to do it myself (so he then rushes in and does it himself); the problem is that he then blamed ME for 'micromanaging his life, filling it with things he 'had' to do.' 

The REAL answer is to get a thick skin and not let comments like that hurt me and make me doubt myself - which is what usually happens to women when men act that way.

"You're not ready to go? The show starts in 20 minutes and I told you about it 3 hours ago, so I'm taking my car. You can meet us there if you want to go. See ya!"

PS: That was my IC's advice.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> I think a lot of that is because women _want _more things done. There are chores that women think absolutely "need" to get done that don't really bother men.
> 
> I've had this discussion with friends and coworkers, and an example I like to give is baseboards. Most men lived by themselves or with other male roommates before moving in with their wives or girlfriends. How many of them ever got down on their hands and knees and cleaned baseboards? Most likely none, because we don't really notice or care about having clean baseboards.
> 
> ...


I clean baseboards:smile2: Would not expect my hubby too tho same i would not expect him to clean bathroom or toilet....

I agree tho with what you've said i do a bunch of stuff my hubby would not careless about, but i do so i do it.

Also the thing is, if something is bothering me that has not been done then i just do it, I cant see the point of making a big issue out of something so small... Is it really worth arguing about?..

There are far more important things in life:smile2:.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's been suggested that you create a chore chart - write out everything that has to get done, inside and out. Then take turns 'claiming' what you will each be responsible for. That way, you get to take the things that matter more to you and you're more likely to do it.


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