# WTF is wrong with Wives these days?



## 38m3kids (Sep 29, 2011)

Including myself, 3 of my close friends have been cheated on by their wives. All of the men hold jobs, are good fathers, and seem to be somewhat normal guys. From what i know, all of the OM were married and/or unemployed drugies. Is this a growing trend? Sad part is, my wife's friends all date deadbeats and ***** and moan about having a good man to raise a family. My wife had it all, and threw it away on a married man. :scratchhead:


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Yeah I've been noticing it more and more on this site and others that the majority of the betrayed are men.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

<insert anti-feminist or misogynistic argument here>


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Its our society and the general decline in the importance of marriage. More and more women are jumping on the Oprah train and putting their own needs before their husbands and children. It gets worse every year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Now now guys, it isn't just the wives, as we all know very well.

There may very well be more women cheating, or maybe just more of them are getting caught. Cheating has historically been something men did, but with women becoming more 'equal' to men, they probably have more opportunities now. Or maybe they're not as good at hiding it as men are. Men have many more centuries of experience at it.


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## 38m3kids (Sep 29, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Now now guys, it isn't just the wives, as we all know very well.
> 
> There may very well be more women cheating, or maybe just more of them are getting caught. Cheating has historically been something men did, but with women becoming more 'equal' to men, they probably have more opportunities now. Or maybe they're not as good at hiding it as men are. Men have many more centuries of experience at it.


touche


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

38m3kids said:


> Including myself, 3 of my close friends have been cheated on by their wives. All of the men hold jobs, are good fathers, and seem to be somewhat normal guys. From what i know, all of the OM were married and/or unemployed drugies. Is this a growing trend? Sad part is, my wife's friends all date deadbeats and ***** and moan about having a good man to raise a family. My wife had it all, and threw it away on a married man. :scratchhead:


It used to be that men cheated at a much higher percentage than women need.

Now that women have much more equality to men, women cheat at just a few % points less than men.

I guess men are now dealing with what women have always dealt with ... cheating spouses. Depending on the stats that you look at, infidelity occurs in 30% - 60% of all marriages.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Complexity said:


> Yeah I've been noticing it more and more on this site and others that the majority of the betrayed are men.


There was a thread here just a few days ago about that some think that there are more men here who have been cheated on than there are women. But no one has acutually done a survey to see if this is true.

One thing that was brought up is that there might be that women are more likely to have a good support group of friends and family when their spouse cheats. Typically men do not have a good support group, so more men than women might be seeking out forums like this one for support.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

My next door neighbor's wife left him and three kids to be with a guy that she knew had three gf's. He was a druggie. She works for the courts. All around the time I was dealing with my crap. One day I went out with my wife and he was standing in my driveway crying (I have known this family for over 15 years and never saw him cry). We talked and I told him what I am going through. His wife came back to him about a month ago and they are working on R.

My neighbor is a cool guy. Works hard. A local truck driver - very few times a year he might do one or two long hauls. The kids all in their teens adore him. 

Yea, why would a college educated woman hook up with a drug using man who she knew was ******* at least three other women. And they all were fighting over this man. I met him once and man is he scum, and I mean scum. I don't get it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> One thing that was brought up is that there might be that women are more likely to have a good support group of friends and family when their spouse cheats. Typically men do not have a good support group, so more men than women might be seeking out forums like this one for support.


This is what I think too. 

Men don't have the social outlets and support networks that women do. I have not gone running to my buddies over my wife's infidelity. The only thing they know is that we split up, because if I told them what she had actually done?....

My buddies would avoid me like a leper.


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## vickyyy (Oct 28, 2011)

s*** wives destroying marriages and families.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> Now now guys, it isn't just the wives, as we all know very well.
> 
> There may very well be more women cheating, or maybe just more of them are getting caught. Cheating has historically been something men did, but with women becoming more 'equal' to men, they probably have more opportunities now. Or maybe they're not as good at hiding it as men are. Men have many more centuries of experience at it.


Bullsh*t

women have and always will cheat as much as men.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Yea, why would a college educated woman hook up with a drug using man who she knew was ******* at least three other women. And they all were fighting over this man. I met him once and man is he scum, and I mean scum. I don't get it.


Bet the guy was Amish.  Just kidding....

Dude, do you live on Cheat Street or what?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> Bullsh*t
> 
> women have and always will cheat as much as men.


That's ridiculous.


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## adv (Feb 26, 2011)

I've always wondered; if so many more men cheat, then who are they cheating with? Are there that many more single women out there than men?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> This is what I think too.
> 
> Men don't have the social outlets and support networks that women do. I have not gone running to my buddies over my wife's infidelity. The only thing they know is that we split up, because if I told them what she had actually done?....
> 
> My buddies would avoid me like a leper.


why? I dont understand that?


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

To me, cheating hasn't changed at all along with anything else.

We see more kids and people getting abducted or disappearing.

More stories about spouses cheating.

It's the information age.

We didn't hear about all these stories unless it was local or covered by the big news networks. With the internet people just have a way to post and others can see what is happening.

So back in the day when news came out in the papers it would be days by the time it reached us (some stories).

We say, oh when we grew up back in the days people could leave the door open and there would be no problems or our parents or our grandparents grew up and lived together for 50, 60 years together.

There will always be sick people out there and there will always be cheaters out there.

BTW, there's more cheaters now a days because there are more people.

In the 50's there was about 2.5 billion people, in the 80s it was 4.5 billion, currently there are over 7 billion people on this earth so yes more people = more things happening + the speed of the information age gets us that information quicker.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

cheatinghubby said:


> To me, cheating hasn't changed at all along with anything else.
> 
> We see more kids and people getting abducted or disappearing.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Very true!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Maybe too many couples out there have laughed off "his needs her needs" (like my W and I did when we tried reading it), instead of trying to understand the message and what people in successful long-term marriages have learned.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

Same thing that's wrong with every cheater. They want to feel good and don't want to do the real, hard work to find true happiness. They settle for a quick fix without considering the long term consequences. A large sense of entitlement and a lack of foresight sum up the problem nicely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> why? I dont understand that?


The buddy crowd I hang out with are definitely the "Alpha" set, and would ostracize me if they found out my wife cheated on me a second time. Most of them know about the first time she did it, and I still get a load of crap from them for that one. They always ask me why I didn't toss her to the curb that first time. I have not given any of them the particulars about this second time, and I don't plan to. 

Don't get me wrong, they are all decent dudes with families of their own, but it is just harder for men to deal with this stuff. We are very akward when it comes to providing emotional stability to each other.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There was a thread here just a few days ago about that some think that there are more men here who have been cheated on than there are women. But no one has acutually done a survey to see if this is true.
> 
> One thing that was brought up is that there might be that women are more likely to have a good support group of friends and family when their spouse cheats. Typically men do not have a good support group, so more men than women might be seeking out forums like this one for support.


Might be the case, though I dunno. Was reading this article today and it has an interesting perspective. Think men are the unfaithful sex? A study shows WOMEN are the biggest cheats - they're just better at lying about it | Mail Online


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## 38m3kids (Sep 29, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> The buddy crowd I hang out with are definitely the "Alpha" set, and would ostracize me if they found out my wife cheated on me a second time. Most of them know about the first time she did it, and I still get a load of crap from them for that one. They always ask me why I didn't toss her to the curb that first time. I have not given any of them the particulars about this second time, and I don't plan to.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, they are all decent dudes with families of their own, but it is just harder for men to deal with this stuff. We are very akward when it comes to providing emotional stability to each other.


Agree.... the few that know about my wifes A, think im crazy for staying. I'm the breadwinner, i do the coaching, PTA, stuff with all 3 kids... Until you have been in these shoes, it sure seems logical to kick her to the curb.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

38m3kids said:


> Agree.... the few that know about my wifes A, think im crazy for staying. I'm the breadwinner, i do the coaching, PTA, stuff with all 3 kids... Until you have been in these shoes, it sure seems logical to kick her to the curb.


This is true of women who've been cheated on too. Most people I know wonder wtf I am doing with a guy who did what he did. And most don't even know about the hooker - if they did they'd probably stop talking to me. They'd definitely be totally skeeved out by him and the thought of what he did.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Now now guys, it isn't just the wives, as we all know very well.
> 
> There may very well be more women cheating, or maybe just more of them are getting caught. Cheating has historically been something men did, but with women becoming more 'equal' to men, they probably have more opportunities now. Or maybe they're not as good at hiding it as men are. Men have many more centuries of experience at it.


I don`t buy this.

In fact I`d say women are much better at hiding it than men in general and always have been.
That`s why it seems as if men were the ones who generally cheated.
Women rarely got caught.

Women just aren`t as concerned with hiding it anymore and our entire culture is becoming more self centered and self indulgent.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ok, this is obviously a topic we need an answer to since it comes up all the time. I started the "Infidelity Poll". Here is the link so that we and our spouces can all be counted.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-infidelity-poll-who-cheats-wife-husband.html


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Complexity said:


> Might be the case, though I dunno. Was reading this article today and it has an interesting perspective. Think men are the unfaithful sex? A study shows WOMEN are the biggest cheats - they're just better at lying about it | Mail Online


The article confirms what I said. More women (married women) are cheating these day. But men still cheat more than women do.

"Are men or women more likely to cheat? While men have always had a worse reputation for being unfaithful, *recent studies show that women are catching up fast* - but we are a lot more likely to lie about it, and a lot less likely to get caught. "

"According to Dr David Holmes, a psychologist at Manchester Metropolitan University, women are having more affairs than ever - recent studies say the figure is around *20 per cent for men and a bit over 15 per cent for women* - but they behave very differently from men when they cheat."

*"Women have always had affairs, but over the past 20 years that number has risen dramatically."*


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I think more women cheat because our society encourages them to do so. No fault divorce has provided incentive for women to divorce, even frivolously. Books/movies like Eat, Pray, Love have portrayed adultery and frivolous divorce as a rite of passage that women must go through to "find themselves" or achieve true happiness.

We've raised the bar for marriage to the point that, if your husband can't make your every fantasy come true, then dump that loser and get you a real man.

Conversely, we've minimized the negative aspects of divorce and cheating. The church no longer ostracizes, or even criticizes women who leave their families. Books, movies, magazines, and even blogs talk about how divorced women can frequently undergo a sexual reawakening when they discover passion after they leave their families behind.

There's a lot of negative information that committed women who want to remain married to their husbands must ignore. And it's hard to do.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I actually have sort of a half-completed theory about this. 

"Back in the day" when marriages did last longer and divorce was unheard of--there were several things that I think were key in making the marriage a success.

One was that usually the parents of the one family knew the parents of the other family because the families lived in the same community and the kids grew up together. Thus, frankly, the girl would be marrying some guy that the mom and dad had watched grow up, and being an older married couple themselves, both sets of parents sort of knew what it took in order to BE married...and had at least of a clue of whether their two kids complimented each other. The girl's folks had a clue whether he was a hard worker and could "provide" for a family; the guy's folks had a clue whether she knew the skills necessary to care for a family; and together they all could tell a bit whether the kids had personalities, temperaments, beliefs, etc. that would be compatible and last for the long haul. Thus the kids may not have had a clue, but the parents might have!! Nowadays, parents don't spend time with their kids, don't get to know them and their strengths and weakness, don't get to know the people the kid dates, and even if they did...the kids think dating is primarily about getting sex and getting their own needs met! It's an instant gratification world with entitlement taught from the time they can talk: if they can demand it, it should be given to them and instantly!! So kids don't think about "can this man or woman provide for a family?" or "are our personalities compatible?" and the parents have little or no say. 

Second, families generally lived near each other and there was a community--and thus as the kids grew up and let's say faced pregnancy, raising kids, menopause...all those things of life...why they had people in their life to whom they could turn and each WATCH what they did (to learn on their own) or ask "Hey mom, how in the world did you handle 3 kids, getting dad off to work, homework, and housework? I am having trouble!" Now a person doesn't always get on well with their own mom or dad, but gramma and grampa were also nearby, aunts and uncles might be around, and if not actual family, there was also the local community. So don't you think that the ladies in those days got to about 35 and told their mom (or older-lady mentor), "Well it's like we just live together. He's not romantic and I miss that. What do I do? How did you get past that?" Same for guys I'm sure--and thus people had someone around to teach them about how to be married and how to stay married! Nowadays people have been spoon-fed the outright LIE that two star-crossed lovers lock eyes across a crowded dance floor, they make perfect, passionate love on the spot, and they live happily ever after lustily meeting each other's needs until one of them dies. Or against the odds the two lovers overcome every obstacle to be together because they were destined for one another and no one can stop fate. And then, when life throws them an illness or hormones go wonky after pregnancy...well no one is there to explain that it's normal, or teach them what to do to get through it together. 

Finally I think back in the day people understood that getting married wasn't about "living a fairy tale" or being infatuated with someone for the rest of their life...having their every need met. I think people got married fully aware that marriage was a commitment and that it was the foundation on which they built families. Thus, rather than basing marriage on hormones, sexual attraction, lust, or "butterflies in the stomach" and then wondering why they aren't "in love" when they don't feel that particular zing anymore...people married knowing that in a way it can be like a business transaction ("in exchange for THIS I promise to do THAT") and looked at it a little more practically. Nowadays, I think woman have fallen for all that Disney "prince charming" stuff and "there's only ONE soulmate for me" [email protected] men have fallen for the lie that presented in porn: women are all curvy, never have a stretch mark, and always want it! So if that's what they think love is...and their spouse isn't charming or she gets a stretch mark why then time to look elsewhere! 

Anyway I've noticed it too. I personally know of several men whom I look at and wonder "WHAT IN THE H3LL IS WRONG WITH YOU WOMEN?" He's smart as a whip, employed, dedicated, charming, funny,witty, fun to be with, looks are fine (okay not "the Rock" but who is?)...and never married, barely dated. Or he's hard-working, educated, charming, faithful...and his wife dropped him for an unemployed, uneducated, drunk, faithless idiot. 

All I can is :wtf:


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I think more women cheat because our society encourages them to do so. No fault divorce has provided incentive for women to divorce, even frivolously. Books/movies like Eat, Pray, Love have portrayed adultery and frivolous divorce as a rite of passage that women must go through to "find themselves" or achieve true happiness.
> 
> We've raised the bar for marriage to the point that, if your husband can't make your every fantasy come true, then dump that loser and get you a real man.
> 
> ...


Just to insert a couple of facts:

1. The average divorced woman suffers financially in a divorce (nearly half suffer an income decline of 25 percent or more, according to a recent Pew study ... Though it used to be worse). Alimony is rarely awarded these days. The median child support payment is a whopping $280 a month, according to the census bureau. Try housing, feeding, educating, entertaining a kid on that. Oh ... And that's when the child support is paid, which isn't the case about half the time (also according to the census).
So, where's all this incentive to dump your man? 

2. Moms still take physical custody of kids in about 80 percent of divorces, so there's not exactly a tsunami of "women leaving their families behind" for a sexual awakening.

I'm not suggesting there are no frivolous divorces out there, or wives who wrong their husbands, but it's hardly the epidemic some like to portray. Are wives cheating more? Sure. But study after study shows it's still a relatively small percentage, and still fewer than men.
Remember, most marriages don't end in divorce, and most people don't cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> That's ridiculous.


whom my I ask did all the men over the years cheat with?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

adv said:


> I've always wondered; if so many more men cheat, then who are they cheating with? Are there that many more single women out there than men?


A lot of men cheat with single women. In the old days man men had a wife and a mistress. The mistress was a single women who the husband took care of financially... he's set her up in a house or apartment and support her.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> whom my I ask did all the men over the years cheat with?


Prostitutes and mistresses, among others. Just the fact that prostitution is geared almost exclusively to men should be a clue. Those women that followed railroad building camps and army camps around weren't doing it just for their health. Uppercrust society men often had mistresses, and their wives even often knew about it.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> whom my I ask did all the men over the years cheat with?


Are you suggesting single women are above getting it on with a married man?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> whom my I ask did all the men over the years cheat with?


In the past single women.

Remember that in past women would not support themselves. If they were caught cheating they stood to lose their children, their home and their income.. their entire way of life. Plus they were branded as harlots.

When a married women had an affair she was generally thrown out by her husband.

In the past women had few choices in life.. be a wife, a house keeper, a nanny, a postitute or a 'kept woman... a mistress'.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Frank Kissell

How can you say this?

```
I'm not suggesting there are no frivolous divorces out there, or wives who wrong their husbands, but it's hardly the epidemic some like to portray. Are wives cheating more? Sure. But study after study shows it's still a relatively small percentage, and still fewer than men.
Remember, most marriages don't end in divorce, and most people don't cheat.
```
These marriage sites are reporting record growth. The divorce rate is higher than ever. The only issue stopping more couples from divorcing are because they cannot afford it due the economy so they stay separated in the same home.

It is only getting worse and the divorce rate is only increasing.

HM64


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> The buddy crowd I hang out with are definitely the "Alpha" set, and would ostracize me if they found out my wife cheated on me a second time. Most of them know about the first time she did it, and I still get a load of crap from them for that one. They always ask me why I didn't toss her to the curb that first time. I have not given any of them the particulars about this second time, and I don't plan to.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, they are all decent dudes with families of their own, but it is just harder for men to deal with this stuff. We are very akward when it comes to providing emotional stability to each other.


Do you know how many of these male friends of yours have cheated on their wives? I'd be curious to know.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

happyman64 said:


> Frank Kissell
> 
> How can you say this?
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that women are at fault for the increased devorce rate?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

They don't hate all men they just hate you and your friends.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> I'm not an expert but isn't the cause of someone cheating due to the
> cheater feeling like something is missing from their relationship and they
> are trying to fulfil a need that they believe is missing or want?
> 
> ...


I think that there is a % of cheaters who cheat just because they can or because they feel entitled. They do if no matter how good their marriage is.

Though most infidelity is probably based on the cheater feeling that something is missing in the marriage. The BS most likely also feels that something is missing but does not chose to cheat.

It's my believe that there is a strong correlation between women in the work place and married women cheating. There is more opportunity as they are around more men. AND… the big one IMHO is that the women feel safer cheating as they have more financial independence. If they get caught the do not have to worry so much about how they will live and support their children.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

People cheat because they're not programmed to have successful relationships. Whether there's more of that now than some other time, is anyone's guess. I suspect no but I also think people are getting married where they shouldn't be or are not mature enough or prepared. So it's a self selecting group of candidates ripe for failure.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm starting to get a little irritated by this debate, probably because I've been a faithful wife for over 15 years (over 17 if count when we were dating) and my husband is the one who cheated. In my mind, men are the dirty dogs who cheat more often, but I know I'm biased due to personal experience.

Stats and studies will never truly give us the answer, because they'll have a portion of participants lying. Why would a cheater risk exposure by telling the truth even on a survey? What if it's a trap? There's no way to ever know for sure who is the one cheating more. My guess, it's probably pretty even with both equal parts of dirty dogs and b!tches.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Are you suggesting that women are at fault for the increased devorce rate?


I think the answer is yes, though I would not use the word fault

Women have more freedom and options now then they did 50 years ago. They have career opportunities and social stigma of being a divorced woman is not nearly as great (if it exists at all). So many women who were forced to stay in a bad marriage (such as an alcoholic husband) 50 years ago now can leave. I think that is good.

Of course, the flip side is that either party can more easily leave for less serious reasons. I think this goes both ways, in that women can leave because they have the freedom or ability, while men feel less financial responsibility for their children or condemnation for leaving them poor because the woman can pay for things. This is not so good.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> I'm not suggesting there are no frivolous divorces out there, or wives who wrong their husbands, but it's hardly the epidemic some like to portray. Are wives cheating more? Sure. But study after study shows it's still a relatively small percentage, and still fewer than men.
> Remember, most marriages don't end in divorce, and most people don't cheat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


These studies recognize that women are more likely to lie about these issues (as well as about other issues related to sex).


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

happyman64 said:


> Frank Kissell
> 
> How can you say this?
> 
> ...


Actually, you're quite wrong. The divorce rate peaked in the early 80s and has been declining ever since. Overall, the divorce rate today is down by about 5 percent since 1996.
Look it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I think there is more evidence that man and women cheat at the same frequency not only today but always.

hell I'll bet back when you say men were cheating more there was no such thing as an emotional affair. 

do you think Org the cave man gave a crap if the skinny cave man was telling his wife how good she mends furs.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

38m3kids said:


> Including myself, 3 of my close friends have been cheated on by their wives. All of the men hold jobs, are good fathers, and seem to be somewhat normal guys. From what i know, all of the OM were married and/or unemployed drugies. Is this a growing trend?


 Nope not a growing trend. Birds of a feather fly together. You and your friends where too beta and told each other that it was OK to be so. Other alpha males took your wives. 

Learn from this for next time. You got hoodwinked by your wife and friends into thinking being a good husband was being beta. Do not repeat that mistake.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> These studies recognize that women are more likely to lie about these issues (as well as about other issues related to sex).


Says who?!?! I'm asking seriously. You're portraying women as conniving b!tches and that's completely ridiculous. Just like portraying men as cheating scumbags is ridiculous.

It's one thing to say "wtf is wrong with wives" to vent steam and leave it at that. We all need to do that once in a while. But to actually try to argue that women are worse cheaters is a bit over the top.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think the answer is yes, though I would not use the word fault
> 
> Women have more freedom and options now then they did 50 years ago. They have career opportunities and social stigma of being a divorced woman is not nearly as great (if it exists at all). So many women who were forced to stay in a bad marriage (such as an alcoholic husband) 50 years ago now can leave. I think that is good.
> 
> Of course, the flip side is that either party can more easily leave for less serious reasons. I think this goes both ways, in that women can leave because they have the freedom or ability, while men feel less financial responsibility for their children or condemnation for leaving them poor because the woman can pay for things. This is not so good.


I have seen stats that say that a large percentage of divorces are filed by women. In the articles I've read there is an assumption usually that women are just being frivolous because it's easy to divorce now.

But I don't think that most of the women are filing for fivolous reasons. I know quite a few divorced women. I only know of 2 that I think left for frivolous reasons.

Many of the women filed because their husbands walked out and they finally filed because their husbands were not going to.. not even when they were living with other women. Some were in abusive marriages. Some were married to cheaters.. many of the husband were serial cheaters.

I filed for divorce before because of serious martial problems, emotional and physical abuse and serial adultery by hubands. But in the statistics I just look like one of those women who is just walking out on her husband.

Numbers do not give the entire picture.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Well if 50% more men are cheating than women either they're cheating with other men or those women are bigger ho's than anyone imagined.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

right now someone from this thread is goggling who cheats more man or woman!


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I personally don't know any women who cheated on men, but two of my neighbors husbands cheated and my own ex h cheated on me several times. My neighbors both worked their marriage out, I left the day I found out. I'm much happier now that I've found someone I fully trust.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> These studies recognize that women are more likely to lie about these issues (as well as about other issues related to sex).


Really? What's your basis for that?
I've seen studies showing men lie more often than women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> right now someone from this thread is goggling who cheats more man or woman!


I've googled that several times. The stats always say that men do by a few percentage points these days.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

first 3 hit on google indicate women cheat as much if not more.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

If you really dig foe scientific studies they have proven that its always been this way through dna analyisis.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> first 3 hit on google indicate women cheat as much if not more.


can you provide links?


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

38m3kids said:


> Including myself, 3 of my close friends have been cheated on by their wives. All of the men hold jobs, are good fathers, and seem to be somewhat normal guys. From what i know, all of the OM were married and/or unemployed drugies. Is this a growing trend? Sad part is, my wife's friends all date deadbeats and ***** and moan about having a good man to raise a family. My wife had it all, and threw it away on a married man. :scratchhead:


People are less dependent on each other today, for better or worse (often worse as you've seen). Women today (for example, not that they're worse than men) are far more secure now than they've ever been, financially and socially. So having a good provider at home just means less now because daddy government can always step in if things go south in the marriage. So she feels more secure in exploring outside possibilities, including with men who appeal superficially like the bad boy types you describe, and who could never provide for her or her children. They've really always done this to some extent, and are now catching up with men who've been more secure in our society for a longer time.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> If you really dig foe scientific studies they have proven that its always been this way through dna analyisis.


Huh? You mean because women have other mens kids? And do these studies account for how many women were raped or forced to do it? Incest? That type of thing? There was a lot more of that going on in times past than now - because the men thought it was their right.

And what your first three google hits are totally depends on what you google, you know.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> If you really dig foe scientific studies they have proven that its always been this way through dna analyisis.



can you provide links?

Historical DNA testing does not tell us if the women were married women cheating or single women who got pregnant.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

TRy said:


> Nope not a growing trend. Birds of a feather fly together. You and your friends where too beta and told each other that it was OK to be so. Other alpha males took your wives.
> 
> Learn from this for next time. You got hoodwinked by your wife and friends into thinking being a good husband was being beta. Do not repeat that mistake.


:smthumbup::iagree:


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> first 3 hit on google indicate women cheat as much if not more.


Well, that's about as scientific as it gets.
Never mind those long-range studies by Kinsey and the U. of Chicago ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> People are less dependent on each other today, for better or worse (often worse as you've seen). Women today (for example, not that they're worse than men) are far more secure now than they've ever been, financially and socially. So having a good provider at home just means less now because *daddy government can always step in if things go south in the marriage.* So she feels more secure in exploring outside possibilities, including with men who appeal superficially like the bad boy types you describe, and who could never provide for her or her children. They've really always done this to some extent, and are now catching up with men who've been more secure in our society for a longer time.


"Daddy government" does not provide a secure or comfortable lifestyle for any woman... especially not one with children. Welfare is poverty level.

More women are financially secure in that more women now make incomes on which they can support themselves. This was a huge consideration in my divorces. I knew (know) that I can support myself and my son. There is no reason for me to put up with infidelity and abuse.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> "Daddy government" does not provide a *secure or comfortable lifestyle* for any woman... especially not one with children. Welfare is poverty level.
> 
> More women are financially secure in that more women now make incomes on which they can support themselves. This was a huge consideration in my divorces. I knew (know) that I can support myself and my son. There is no reason for me to put up with infidelity and abuse.


There isn't a "comfortable" lifestyle at issue. Upper middle class and above people have actually cheated less and less over the years. The people who are cheating today, and then getting divorced as a result, are by and large lower middle class and working class people. For them the basic security provided by gov't programs is all they've ever expected or could have expected. This changes the equation when it comes to what could only have come from depending on your spouse in the past. Note that I've taken a position on neither government programs per se nor your personal situation but instead have identified a broad social trend that I believe factors into the changes the OP has seen.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Just to insert a couple of facts:
> 
> 1. The average divorced woman suffers financially in a divorce (nearly half suffer an income decline of 25 percent or more, according to a recent Pew study ... Though it used to be worse). Alimony is rarely awarded these days. The median child support payment is a whopping $280 a month, according to the census bureau. Try housing, feeding, educating, entertaining a kid on that. Oh ... And that's when the child support is paid, which isn't the case about half the time (also according to the census).
> So, where's all this incentive to dump your man?


http://www.feb.ugent.be/nl/Ondz/wp/Papers/wp_10_681.pdf
This paper is titled No-Fault Divorce and Rent-Seeking. The authors find that no-fault divorce results in higher spousal alimony. And the median support payment sounds reasonable. But, median payments, while statistically valid and useful, are not indicative of the abuses that courts sometimes inflict upon parents in the name of child support. Some fathers are paying more than 40% of their net incomes in child support.



FrankKissel said:


> 2. Moms still take physical custody of kids in about 80 percent of divorces, so there's not exactly a tsunami of "women leaving their families behind" for a sexual awakening.


That's true. I've seen estimates that average around 85% of mothers are the custodial parents post-divorce. I meant to say that women were leaving behind the married family. Not necessarily leaving the children behind.



FrankKissel said:


> I'm not suggesting there are no frivolous divorces out there, or wives who wrong their husbands, but it's hardly the epidemic some like to portray. Are wives cheating more? Sure. But study after study shows it's still a relatively small percentage, and still fewer than men.
> Remember, most marriages don't end in divorce, and most people don't cheat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree that most wives don't cheat. And that probably more husbands are cheating than wives. However, I am still dismayed by the general cultural acceptance, and even encouragement, of cheating and divorce by women. I won't say that men who cheat or frivolously divorce face nothing but scorn and ridicule, but I can't think of any encouragement for men to do so.


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## Struggling4ever (Jan 9, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I personally don't know any women who cheated on men, but two of my neighbors husbands cheated and my own ex h cheated on me several times. My neighbors both worked their marriage out, I left the day I found out. I'm much happier now that I've found someone I fully trust.


Well...my wife cheated...One of my good friends had a long term girlfriend that cheated with one of his good friends. The place we go to dance has a married woman who is known to go out in the parking lot and "satisfy" younger men...and she has a stable of young girls she is teaching this behavior to even though it sickens most of the regulars. My wife owns a hair salon and she hears stories as well as we have had 1 man stylist and a couple woman who had affairs and were let go. 1 girl where I work has an 8 yr old child from an affair with a married man. I can think of very few guys I know personally who have pulled this crap, but 1 woman where we dance brags about her married boyfriend stopping over every morning or night.....Yeah it was done to me so maybe I'm biased, but either way...it's bad out there on both sides!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> There isn't a "comfortable" lifestyle at issue. Upper middle class and above people have actually cheated less and less over the years. The people who are cheating today, and then getting divorced as a result, are by and large lower middle class and working class people. For them the basic security provided by gov't programs is all they've ever expected or could have expected. This changes the equation when it comes to what could only have come from depending on your spouse in the past. Note that I've taken a position on neither government programs per se nor your personal situation but instead have identified a broad social trend that I believe factors into the changes the OP has seen.


It would be interesting to see a like to some data that supports this.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

72% of statistical numbers are just pulling numbers out of their asses


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> These studies recognize that women are more likely to lie about these issues (as well as about other issues related to sex).


Sorry, this kinda made me giggle since I find it so hard to believe based on my own relationships with my girlfriends. Perhaps it's true, but I don't understand how the study can "recognize" that woman are more likely to lie about these issues as well as other issues related to sex. Why wouldn't men lie too? It seems highly improbable this is a controllable factor that can be tested in order to obtain sound data.

Based on my own experience of dicussing every sexual matter under the sun with friends, no topic is taboo. I've even been invited to those sex toy parties where women who don't even know each other talk about their sexual experiences. So it's hard for me to believe women lie about sexual issues more than men, especially in this day and age.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Just to insert a couple of facts:
> 
> 1. The average divorced woman suffers financially in a divorce (nearly half suffer an income decline of 25 percent or more, according to a recent Pew study ... Though it used to be worse). Alimony is rarely awarded these days. The median child support payment is a whopping $280 a month, according to the census bureau. Try housing, feeding, educating, entertaining a kid on that. Oh ... And that's when the child support is paid, which isn't the case about half the time (also according to the census).
> So, where's all this incentive to dump your man?
> ...




Thank you for the voice of reason, as per usual.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> the basic security provided by gov't programs is all they've ever expected or could have expected. This changes the equation when it comes to what could only have come from depending on your spouse in the past.


I can agree with this. I left home at 16 with my now-ex-husband, after growing up in a two income household where being a girl was never a 'problem' shall we say, and moved into a culture where many girls expected to have to quit halfway through high school because they were pregnant and went on what they called 'mothers allowance'. Many girls got pregnant just so they could quit school and do that. It was such a foreign concept to me I thought people were joking when they talked about it. Then I met some of these women. Talk about sad. Most of them weren't married because they would lose their 'mothers allowance'. So where do you think they got pregnant from? It usually wasn't single guys.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> And that probably more husbands are cheating than wives. However, I am still dismayed by the general cultural acceptance, and even encouragement, of cheating and divorce by women. I won't say that men who cheat or frivolously divorce face nothing but scorn and ridicule, but I can't think of any encouragement for men to do so.


What I have seen in our society today is that the popular culture encourages both men and women to cheat and divorce. There is actually very little support for marriage in our society.

As soon as there is a problem people are encouraged to divorce. Even 'marriage' counselors are more likely to help a couple move towards divorce than to stay together.

While there might encouragement for women to cheat and divorce... women are getting close but have not caught up yet to men cheating. As for divorce it's nonsense to think that women are wholesale leaving their marriages frivolously. Most women, like most men, spend years trying to make their marriage work.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> can you provide links?
> 
> Historical DNA testing does not tell us if the women were married women cheating or single women who got pregnant.


The DNA studies examine the entire history of the human race. Marriage is a relatively new invention in that context. So, we're not talking about infidelity versus faithful women. And it's also unlikely that we're looking at tens (or hundreds) of thousands of rapes.

It's most likely that humans evolved with concealed ovulation and uncertain paternity so that many women could mate with a subset of the male population.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> The DNA studies examine the entire history of the human race. Marriage is a relatively new invention in that context. So, we're not talking about infidelity versus faithful women. And it's also unlikely that we're looking at tens (or hundreds) of thousands of rapes.
> 
> It's most likely that humans evolved with concealed ovulation and uncertain paternity so that many women could mate with a subset of the male population.


This is exactly my point. The poster I was responding to was using the DNA tests as proof that a large number of women have always engaged in infidelity. But that is not what this data tells us.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> "Daddy government" does not provide a secure or comfortable lifestyle for any woman... especially not one with children. Welfare is poverty level.


Poverty, especially in the West, is a relative term. People on welfare have televisions, cable TV, internet, video game consoles, refrigerators, air conditioning, cars, microwaves, cell phones, etc. So women these days don't have to worry about starving if they cheat on their husbands and get thrown out of the marriage.



EleGirl said:


> More women are financially secure in that more women now make incomes on which they can support themselves. This was a huge consideration in my divorces. I knew (know) that I can support myself and my son. There is no reason for me to put up with infidelity and abuse.


That is also true.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> I have seen stats that say that a large percentage of divorces are filed by women. In the articles I've read there is an assumption usually that women are just being frivolous because it's easy to divorce now.
> 
> But I don't think that most of the women are filing for fivolous reasons. I know quite a few divorced women. I only know of 2 that I think left for frivolous reasons.
> 
> ...



I agree.

I don't like to see divorce figures so high, but I'm glad I (and other women) have the right to obtain one if I need to. I did need to, and I'm much happier for having finally done so. I realize that's not the popular stance on this site, but my only regret is not having done it sooner. 

I think men are intimidated by the fact that they can no longer be secure in the knowledge that wifey couldn't leave even if she wanted to, as in the past. It used to be they could get away with all kinds of (mis)behavior because finances and social stigma against divorce would keep her in her place.

It might be bad to have _so_ many divorces, but it's worse when women have to live out their lives in misery because they don't have a choice. 

And having 3 children, I didn't make that choice lightly. I resent people insinuating that i did.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> http://www.feb.ugent.be/nl/Ondz/wp/Papers/wp_10_681.pdf
> This paper is titled No-Fault Divorce and Rent-Seeking. The authors find that no-fault divorce results in higher spousal alimony.


This may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that alimony is pretty rare (14 percent of divorces, according to one study I saw) and most often awarded to longtime SAHMs.



> I agree that most wives don't cheat. And that probably more husbands are cheating than wives. However, I am still dismayed by the general cultural acceptance, and even encouragement, of cheating and divorce by women. I won't say that men who cheat or frivolously divorce face nothing but scorn and ridicule, but I can't think of any encouragement for men to do so.


I don't disagree with too much there, though I wouldn't go so far as to suggest the culture encourages it. It can, certainly, present women's infidelity glamorously (Bridges of ******* Co., Unfaithful to name a couple of examples).
That said, serial male cheaters aren't exactly demonized in the entertainment industry (see: Don Draper, Tony Soprano).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

FrankKissel said:


> This may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that alimony is pretty rare (14 percent of divorces, according to one study I saw) and most often awarded to longtime SAHMs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So is the word "*******" just automatically marked as a swear word now because of that cheating site?


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

Broncos Fan said:


> So is the word "*******" just automatically marked as a swear word now because of that cheating site?


I guess that answers my question.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> That's ridiculous.


If there aren't as many women cheating, who are the men cheating with.


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## itgetsbetter (Mar 1, 2012)

Men and women cheat for the same reasons. 

Perhaps women as "nurturer" being an absolute identity is now a thing of the past since women are now encouraged...really demanded...to be breadwinners. Women don't dedicate their lives to making a happy home for their families anymore. Some do...but most simply weren't raised to do that...nor do their husbands want them to do that. Once upon a time, most little girls were given a doll, and a stay-at-home wife role model, and taught to nurture others...which was only encouraged by the fact that most men are protector/providers by nature and women are nuturers by nature (exceptions of course).

That's not to blame anybody. Just an observation that I think may contribute to why women are cheating more...maybe they are cheating more because they are, frankly, more like men than women ever used to be.

Even so, there having always been female cheaters. 


All that being said...

People cheat because they think it's ok. 

Period. 

Whether that's because they are a sociopath (like I believe in my ex to be) or because of weak or nonexistent morality or because "my husband/wife doesn't understand me" - ultimately people cheat because they think it's ok. Even when they lie or hide it. They think it's ok. They don't want to get caught because "nobody will understand" and they'll lose something...NOT as a result of their cheating but because people don't understand WHY IT IS OK.

Cheaters cheat because they find a reason that it is ok. Some people will never be cheaters because they have too strong a sense of loyalty, morality, empathy, decency. And some peole don't...and those are your potential cheaters...male or female.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> I agree.
> 
> I don't like to see divorce figures so high, but I'm glad I (and other women) have the right to obtain one if I need to. I did need to, and I'm much happier for having finally done so. I realize that's not the popular stance on this site, but my only regret is not having done it sooner.
> 
> ...


Like you, I also resent the idea being tossed around that most women get divorces lightly. I did not divorce lightly either.




TeaLeaves4 said:


> I realize that's not the popular stance on this site, but my only regret is not having done it sooner.



Actually you will hear a lot of poeple give advice to divorce on this site... when there is infidelity and abuse mostly.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chapparal said:


> If there aren't as many women cheating, who are the men cheating with.


Some of the men cheat with married women. Some of the men cheat wiht single women. And some of the men cheat with other men.


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## Kricket (May 10, 2011)

I am probably gonna catch crap for this one, but here is my theory:

There was a time when a couple was married or when a man claimed a woman to be his wife, it was understood that no other man was to approach her or hit on her without receiving the wrath of a very jealous and armed husband. Nowadays the other man is just not afraid of the husband and has no problem approaching a married woman. Who is the afraid of the man that is at home doing the laundry while his wife is out hanging out with her new beau? No one! I wouldn't be. Now, I don't advocate that a husband owns his wife or should have a gun, so please don't send me any hate email. I am just pointing out that there is always a man out there that will be ready to strike at a woman that is available and if that happens to be a married woman with a pushover for a husband, than so be it.

It is a well known fact that if a even slightly attractive woman walks into a bar, a herd of men will hit on her before the night is over. If she is single, she may "cut one from the herd" before the night is over. If she is married, she woud ideally ignore them all and remain faithful. As we know, this doesn't always happen. 

If a slightly attractive man walks into a bar, he may be lucky if one woman makes the first move. If he is single, he is out hitting on as many women as possible to increase his odds. If he is married, let's hope he is just there to watch sports with friends. If a married man were to receive as many suiters as the abovementioned woman, then by the night's end, is he is more likely to to give in to temptation? Let's face it, men are not approached near as much as women and are not in the situation to act on these instances as much as women. 

My point that I am trying to muddle through is that married women are hit on more now than in the past since there fewer men afraid to hit on married women. Eventually a man will hit the lottery and find a woman that has a weak marriage or low self esteem and viola!

Also, before I get torn apart by the men, I do agree some women do actively seek affairs and the number of those have gone up as well.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Do you know how many of these male friends of yours have cheated on their wives? I'd be curious to know.


Personally speaking I don't know any man that has cheated on his wife. I do know of at least 6 wives that have cheated on their husbands. And that's not including me. Maybe I just don't associate with the type of man that would cheat.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TRy said:


> Nope not a growing trend. Birds of a feather fly together. You and your friends where too beta and told each other that it was OK to be so. Other alpha males took your wives.
> 
> Learn from this for next time. You got hoodwinked by your wife and friends into thinking being a good husband was being beta. Do not repeat that mistake.


Friend, I'm pretty damned alpha. I was even before I knew what the hell alpha was. The group of men I know whose wives cheated on them include a Deputy Sheriff, a captain in the state police, a CEO of a successful company, and a banker who is a Taekwondo state champ. None of these guys would be considered beta in any sense.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Personally speaking I don't know any man that has cheated on his wife. I do know of at least 6 wives that have cheated on their husbands. And that's not including me. Maybe I just don't associate with the type of man that would cheat.


Interesting. I know many men who have cheated on their wives and a few women who have cheated.

The # of men are far more than twice as many as the women.

I guess it's just different in different social/family circles.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

From an article at WebMD about infidelity, some interesting findings:

1. ”56% of men who had affairs were happy in their marriage, according to a study by Helen Fisher, Ph.D., a biological anthropologist at Rutgers University and the author of Why Him? Why Her? and Why We Love. By comparison, only 34% of women who had affairs were happy or very happy in their marriage.

Men are more likely to cite sexual motivations for infidelity and less likely to fall in love with an extramarital partner, Fisher tells WebMD. ”Women are more interested in supplementing their marriage or jumping ship than men are. For men, it is a secondary strategy as opposed to an alternate.”

…Experts say that a large majority of the time, motivations for infidelity differ by gender, with men searching for more sex or attention and women looking to fill an emotional void.

Men are more likely to cite sexual motivations for infidelity and less likely to fall in love with an extramarital partner. Women tend to have an emotional connection with their lover and are more likely to have an affair because of loneliness.”

2. ”Although infidelity is the main reason unmarried couples who are living together split up, the same is not true of married couples. Married couples often cite being incompatible or unable to communicate as the cause of their divorce.”

3. ”Statistics from the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy suggest that 25% of husbands report having had sex outside of their marriage. When emotional affairs or sexual intimacies without intercourse (such as kissing) are included, the number jumps to 45%.

Statistics from the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy suggest that 15% of wives report having had sex outside of their marriage. When emotional affairs or sexual intimacies without intercourse (such as kissing) are included, the number jumps to 35%.”

4. ”A National Marriage Project study of 25- to 60-year-olds found that highly educated people are less likely to be unfaithful than their less educated peers. In the 2000s, 13% of college educated respondents reported sex outside their marriage, compared with 19% of those who were moderately educated and 21% of those with the least education (high school dropouts).”

5. A woman is least likely to be unfaithful if her income is much less than her husband’s. 

“A Cornell University study on income and infidelity found that women are least likely to stray when they are dependent on their male partner’s income. They may have fewer opportunities to cheat and may decide it isn’t worth it because their livelihood may be at risk.” 

(SW: I suspect female hypergamy explains a lot of this, particularly among highly educated couples.)

6. A man is more likely to cheat if his wife is the main breadwinner. 

“A Cornell University study on income and infidelity found that men who were completely dependent on their female partner’s income were five times more likely to cheat than men who contributed equally. However, when age, education level, income, religious attendance, and relationship satisfaction were taken into account, the relationship between economic dependence and infidelity disappeared.”

(SW: Similarly, I suspect that the male preference for relationship dominance is material here.)

“Ironically, the same Cornell University study found that men who bring home most of the household income are also more likely to cheat. Men were least likely to cheat when their partners made approximately 75% of their incomes.”

(SW: That sounds like the sweet spot of financial gain and relationship dynamics.)

7. Genetic testing could help determine how likely your partner is to cheat.

“Genes associated with sensation-seeking behaviors, such as drinking alcohol or gambling, also may be associated with sexual promiscuity and infidelity, according to a recent study. The study focused on the DRD4 gene, which is associated with other behaviors linked with reward and feeling good. People with a genetic variation of DRD4 called 7R+ were more likely to commit infidelity or be promiscuous; 50% of people with 7R+ reported being unfaithful, compared with 22% of people who did not have this genetic variation.”


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Kricket said:


> I am probably gonna catch crap for this one, but here is my theory:
> 
> There was a time when a couple was married or when a man claimed a woman to be his wife, it was understood that no other man was to approach her or hit on her without receiving the wrath of a very jealous and armed husband. Nowadays the other man is just not afraid of the husband and has no problem approaching a married woman. Who is the afraid of the man that is at home doing the laundry while his wife is out hanging out with her new beau? No one! I wouldn't be. Now, I don't advocate that a husband owns his wife or should have a gun, so please don't send me any hate email. I am just pointing out that there is always a man out there that will be ready to strike at a woman that is available and if that happens to be a married woman with a pushover for a husband, than so be it.
> 
> ...


I might add it's easier for a woman to cheat. All a woman has to do is go to a bar and stand there and smile, whereas a guy might have to hang out in the same bar for weeks before he get's lucky ;~)


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

From a 2009 study called The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness

http://bpp.wharton.upenn.edu/betseys/papers/Female_Happiness.pdf

The lives of women in the United States have improved over the past 35 years by many objective measures, yet we show that measures of subjective well-being indicate that women’s happiness has declined both absolutely and relative to men. This decline in relative well-being is found across various datasets, measures of subjective well- being, demographic groups, and industrialized countries. Relative declines in female happiness have eroded a gender gap in happiness in which women in the 1970s reported higher subjective well-being than did men. These declines have continued and a new gender gap is emerging—one with higher subjective well-being for men.

[T]trends in self-reported subjective well-being indicate that happiness has shifted toward men and away from women. This shift holds across industrialized countries regardless of whether the aggregate trend in happiness for both genders is flat, rising, or falling. In all of these cases, we see happiness rebalancing to reflect greater happiness for men relative to women.

First, there may be other important socioeconomic forces that have made women worse off. A number of important macro trends have been documented: decreased social cohesion (Robert D. Putnam 2000), increased anxiety and neuroticism (Jean M. Twenge 2000), and increased household risk (Hacker 2006). While each of these trends have impacted men and women, it is possible for even apparently gender-neutral trends to have gender-biased impacts if men and women respond differently to these forces. For example, if women are more risk averse than men, then an increase in risk may lower women’s utility relative to that of men.

The second possibility is that broad social shifts such as those brought on by the changing role of women in society fundamentally alter what measures of subjective well-being are capturing. Over time it is likely that women are aggregating satisfaction over an increasingly larger domain set. For example, life satisfaction may have previously meant “satisfaction at home” and has increasingly come to mean some combination of “satisfaction at home” and “satisfaction at work.” This averaging over many domains may lead to falling average satisfaction if it is difficult to achieve the same degree of satisfaction in multiple domains. One piece of evidence along these lines is that the correlation between happiness and marital happiness is lower for women who work compared with those who are stay at home wives, and the correlation has fallen over time for all women in our sample.

Finally, the changes brought about through the women’s movement may have decreased women’s happiness. The increased opportunity to succeed in many dimensions may have led to an increased likelihood of believing that one’s life is not measuring up. Similarly, women may now compare their lives to a broader group, including men, and find their lives more likely to come up short in this assessment. Or women may simply find the complexity and increased pressure in their modern lives to have come at the cost of happiness.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm amused when I hear about how men and women have become "equal" in today's environment. If this is true, it has occurred only in the last two years. Had it been so, perhaps my ex who did ALL the cheating and her, at that time boyfriend, might not have been awarded the house, the newer car and twenty thousand bucks to tie them over until ONE of them found employment.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> I might add it's easier for a woman to cheat. All a woman has to do is go to a bar and stand there and smile, whereas a guy might have to hang out in the same bar for weeks before he get's lucky ;~)


Yet married men cheat more than married women. I guess that there are lots of single women who are not all that hard for them to hit on... the men probably do not always meet their affair partners in bars.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hookares said:


> I'm amused when I hear about how men and women have become "equal" in today's environment. If this is true, it has occurred only in the last two years. Had it been so, perhaps my ex who did ALL the cheating and her, at that time boyfriend, might not have been awarded the house, the newer car and twenty thousand bucks to tie them over until ONE of them found employment.


Her boyfriend was not awarded anything.

She got what the judge felt was her half (or equitable portion) of the marital estate.

Or she lied up a storm and convinced the judge that she was more in need then you.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Infidelity by women may not be such a recent trend either.

From _Virtue Under Fire_ and _Love, Sex, and War_ by John Costello 

“Of the 5.3 million British infants delivered between 1939 and 1945, over a third were illegitimate – and this wartime phenomenon was not confined to any one section of society. The babies that were born out-of-wedlock belonged to every age group of mother, concluded one social researcher:

Some were adolescent girls who had drifted away from homes which offered neither guidance nor warmth and security. Still others were women with husbands on war service, who had been unable to bear the loneliness of separation. There were decent and serious, superficial and flighty, irresponsible and incorrigible girls among them. There were some who had formed serious attachments and hoped to marry. There were others who had a single lapse, often under the influence of drink. There were, too, the ‘good-time girls’ who thrived on the presence of well-paid servicemen from overseas, and semi-prostitutes with little moral restraint. But for the war many of these girls, whatever their type, would never have had illegitimate children. (pp. 276-277)”

and;

“Neither British nor American statistics, which indicate that wartime promiscuity reached its peak in the final stages of the war, take account of the number of irregularly conceived pregnancies that were terminated illegally. Abortionists appear to have been in great demand during the war. One official British estimate suggests that one in five of all pregnancies was ended in this way, and the equivalent rate for the United States indicates that the total number of abortions for the war years could well have been over a million.

These projections are at best merely a hypothetical barometer of World War II’s tremendous stimulus to extra-marital sexual activity. The highest recorded rate of illegitimate births was not among teenage girls, as might have been expected. Both British and American records indicate that women between twenty and thirty gave birth to nearly double the number of pre-war illegitimate children. Since it appears that the more mature women were the ones most encouraged by the relaxed morals of wartime to ‘enjoy’ themselves, it may be surmised that considerations of fidelity were no great restraint on the urge of the older married woman to participate in the general rise in wartime sexual promiscuity. (pp. 277-278)”


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Kricket said:


> I am probably gonna catch crap for this one, but here is my theory:
> 
> There was a time when a couple was married or when a man claimed a woman to be his wife, it was understood that no other man was to approach her or hit on her without receiving the wrath of a very jealous and armed husband. Nowadays the other man is just not afraid of the husband and has no problem approaching a married woman. Who is the afraid of the man that is at home doing the laundry while his wife is out hanging out with her new beau? No one! I wouldn't be. Now, I don't advocate that a husband owns his wife or should have a gun, so please don't send me any hate email. I am just pointing out that there is always a man out there that will be ready to strike at a woman that is available and if that happens to be a married woman with a pushover for a husband, than so be it.
> 
> ...


Hopefully, you won't be attacked. In the end, we're all giving opinions. I think this is a valid way of looking at it, but I really don't think the implied aim would be the predator, so to speak. In my opinion, people do it because they either think they'll get away with it, or they see their partner as being unlikely to divorce over it. 

Whether it is right or wrong, cheaters once also had to fear that future potential spouses might refuse to marry them if the exposure leads to divorce.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Yet married men cheat more than married women. I guess that there are lots of single women who are not all that hard for them to hit on... the men probably do not always meet their affair partners in bars.


That's what we are led to believe, but I'm seeing a huge increase in forums where men in long term marriages are reporting their wive affairs. In some cases tracking their email trails with multiple partners going back five years or more., and finding their children are not their own. Men being reticent to talk of such things I wonder how many have suffered in silence before, but are now being more open about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> That's what we are led to believe, but I'm seeing a huge increase in forums where men in long term marriages are reporting their wive affairs. In some cases tracking their email trails with multiple partners going back five years or more., and finding their children are not their own. Men being reticent to talk of such things I wonder how many have suffered in silence before, but are now being more open about it.


The problem is that using public forums to gather statistics is not reliable. It's like going to the hospital and saying that there is an epidemic because there are a lot of sick people in the hospital.

There could very well be a trend that more men use public forums for support because they do not have good support systems in real life and men do not use counselors as often as women do. Both of these are pretty well known facts.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Kricket said:


> I am probably gonna catch crap for this one, but here is my theory:
> 
> *There was a time when a couple was married or when a man claimed a woman to be his wife, it was understood that no other man was to approach her or hit on her without receiving the wrath of a very jealous and armed husband. Nowadays the other man is just not afraid of the husband and has no problem approaching a married woman. Who is the afraid of the man that is at home doing the laundry while his wife is out hanging out with her new beau? No one! I wouldn't be.* Now, I don't advocate that a husband owns his wife or should have a gun, so please don't send me any hate email. I am just pointing out that there is always a man out there that will be ready to strike at a woman that is available and if that happens to be a married woman with a pushover for a husband, than so be it.
> 
> ...


I am older than most on this forum, and if I found another man banging my wife he would likely meet my .357. Sorry, call me old school. 

But I think you are correct much has changed. I am not saying that a lot of the change has not been good, but even on this forum many folks go way out of their way to not hold predators accountable. I think it is because they do want folks to hold the WS accountable. I think there is plenty accountability to go around and would not want to cheat anyone out of it. At one time men would get a lot more sympathy in the court room for dealing with the OM.

Ultimately though it is the women who give the green light to these men. The women portray their husbands in a light that is disrespectful. In many cases the husband has empowered her to do so. Laws are such that it protects the rights to poach and it protects the rights of cheaters to cheat. 

Many folks still however blame the husband. if he was man enough his woman would not have to sleep with another man. If he met her needs she would not be forced to seek attention else where.
There seems to be a greater sense of entitlement.

But back in Roman times when women could be put to death for infidelity, they still cheated. So this is not new.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> The problem is that using public forums to gather statistics is not reliable. It's like going to the hospital and saying that there is an epidemic because there are a lot of sick people in the hospital.
> 
> There could very well be a trend that more men use public forums for support because they do not have good support systems in real life and men do not use counselors as often as women do. Both of these are pretty well known facts.


It's not just forums, I went to a get together with some old friends on New Years, some I have not spent a lot of time with in 15 years or more. We sat up all night catching up about everyone we knew and the marital horror stories I heard regarding cheating wives was almost unbelievable. Marriages I though were going well were shams, some of the guys were actually in tears over this "shame". It's a topic that's been swept under the rug until men have had a safe place to talk about it online.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> That's ridiculous.


Actually, I believe women cheat more than men do. Just women are better at hiding it. And (according to a study that I read) they usually don't feel guilty about it while the affair is happening. The guilt usually comes when they get caught and that fantasy bubble breaks and they see the pain that they've caused the family.

Plus, women have a hellva LOT more opportunities to cheat then men do. If a woman is determined to "hook up" on girls night out, you will be hard pressed to find a young heterosexual male to turn "it" down.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Many folks still however blame the husband. if he was man enough his woman would not have to sleep with another man. If he met her needs she would not be forced to seek attention else where.
> There seems to be a greater sense of entitlement.


I agree with this statement. Now, that were in the times of Oprah, if a man cheats then he's a dog, he's a playa and lower than pond scum.

If a woman cheats, then there was a problem with the relationship. There was a breakdown in communication. He was emotionally unavailable to me, he showed no affection. He put up an emotional wall around himself.

So, if a guy cheats, it's his fault. If a girl cheats, it's still his fault....


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## vickyyy (Oct 28, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Friend, I'm pretty damned alpha. I was even before I knew what the hell alpha was. The group of men I know whose wives cheated on them include a Deputy Sheriff, a captain in the state police, a CEO of a successful company, and a banker who is a Taekwondo state champ. None of these guys would be considered beta in any sense.


what a [email protected] professional position held does not mean that they r not doormat.
such men only gets leftover after other men done with banging their wives and these doormats feel happy that they got their wives back.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I do think there is more cheating going on, all the way around. I think EAs abound because many folks do not even realize what they are. Technology has made this all too easy. 

Probably the cheating is close to equal. BUT, more men and more women are cheating. I think that female infidelity has the momentum. I also believe that many women just kept it quiet. Many women prefer discrete men and / or men that have everything to lose from disclosure.

If you think about it, it is amazing that women do not out cheat men 100 to 1. Why? Because most women could walk into any social situation, especially with single men and decide which of at least a handful of guys they will have sex with. If this is what women wanted they could choose from a relatively small percentage of men and have sex with them. These men are any port in a storm. 
If a reasonably good looking married woman wanted to have sex with a hot personal trainer she could just go pick one out.

I do not know where this pendulum of infidelity will swing. Potentially it could swing a very long way towards women having the opportunity to cheat. 

But what is shocking to me is how many men seem to be willing to accept this infidelity.

Or comments like:

_I know it was wrong but I snooped on her mail and found she is cheating on me. I feel so bad for snooping. Really? You feel you violated her!?

My wife has lots of guy friends she hangs out with. She goes to their homes and watches movies some nights, goes drinking with them and goes on short trips with them. I am cool with this. 

I trust her completely. Marriage is based on trust. I am not controlling. So I never hassle my wife when she stays out all night, goes to Vegas with her divorced friends and sometimes stays overnight at her male friends apartment when she has had too much to drink. What a great friend she has.

My wife has gotten back in touch with a lot of her High School friends on Facebook. She dated a bunch of these guys. She can't wait to go to her reunion next month. It is 1500 miles from our home. I was going to go but I don't want to interfere with her catching up with her friends. besides she will be sleeping over a friends house and he does not have a lot of room._

I digress ... yeah I know the above is a dramatization ... but what is up with husbands!? What has happened to men. Men are just flat playing catch up and they don't even know what the game is about.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

dgtal said:


> While our legal system keep on protecting these experienced predators there will be more and more happy marriages felling apart. They are smart enough to carry on their plans by systematicaly targeting their prey to a point of crushing your wife hidden “repressed desires” and making them vulnerable.
> You can make them meet your .357 by only showing it to them but don’t point it at them, you will eventually end up in jail, how about that. The jails are full of these LB nice husbands.
> We are only limited to expose the affair to the predator’s wife. That’s their worse fear. It reminded me of a poster here who opened a thread called “Perspective from a Serial Cheating Male”. Still remember the introduction to his quote: “ I never flirted or complimented a married woman that I didn’t want to nail” (This thread was deleted from TAM)
> 
> ...


I guess you misunderstood me. We all make choices. We all have our boundaries. Understand I have not been married just two years. That makes all the difference to me.

Anyway, no matter how good a husband is there are no garantees in life. Some guys seem to enable this to happen with their wives.


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## smith9800 (Mar 7, 2012)

Complexity said:


> Yeah I've been noticing it more and more on this site and others that the majority of the betrayed are men.


Yeah. You are right. I noticed this too. Because they don't have anything to do that's why they are are cheating....


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Kricket said:


> Who is the afraid of the man that is at home doing the laundry while his wife is out hanging out with her new beau? No one! I wouldn't be.


Aha! That's why my husband cheated -- I was still the one at home doing the laundry, and he was the one at the clubs! Well, I sure messed that one up for myself, LOL! 

I think there's definitely a point to be made about how changing attitudes about gender have changed views of divorce. Back in the 70s/80s, I remember a lot guys really looked down on by society for walking out on a wife and kids, especially if it left them with a much lower standard of living. Now, it just doesn't seem to be a big deal, since there's WIC, or SNAP, or subsidized housing,etc. Not as much stigma anymore. I never thought I'd hear my STBXH say something like this, but he did. He assured me that after the D, I'll qualify for SNAP, so that will help with my living expenses (I make less than he does, and my state doesn't award alimony except in really long marriages with a SAHM and kids). He will have his MA this spring. I had to drop out of school when he had his breakdown and was out of work, and lost a lot of my credits because they were earned too long ago. If I go back to school, I'll be starting almost from scratch, and he'll have a loan-free MA with most of his undergrad loans paid while we were married. But at least I will qualify for food stamps!! And nobody in his social circle thinks a thing of it. Some of them are grad students, single, no kids, no health problems, and THEY'RE on food stamps, FFS!

And the lessening of stigma against women is helping them to catch up. Just like smoking. Women wanted to be just like men, so they smoked more, and they ended up with more lung cancer, too. Yippee for equality. Derp.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Some of the men cheat with married women. Some of the men cheat wiht single women. And some of the men cheat with other men.


So are women!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Let me just say....ummmm.....

never mind.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

Kricket said:


> I am probably gonna catch crap for this one, but here is my theory:
> 
> There was a time when a couple was married or when a man claimed a woman to be his wife, it was understood that no other man was to approach her or hit on her without receiving the wrath of a very jealous and armed husband. Nowadays the other man is just not afraid of the husband and has no problem approaching a married woman. Who is the afraid of the man that is at home doing the laundry while his wife is out hanging out with her new beau? No one! I wouldn't be. Now, I don't advocate that a husband owns his wife or should have a gun, so please don't send me any hate email. I am just pointing out that there is always a man out there that will be ready to strike at a woman that is available and if that happens to be a married woman with a pushover for a husband, than so be it.
> 
> ...


I think this is a good way to look at it. It's not the complete story of course, but it explains some of what's going on. I'm always amazed at how many younger men especially seem to specialize in pursuing married women. And a lot of women aren't realizing that they happen to be number 314 that that man has approached that night, so they feel flattered when really it's just a numbers game for many of these guys. I resent it immensely because though these men owe the married couple nothing, they are taking advantage of someone else's marriage with the full knowledge that if something happens, the couple is left to pick up the pieces.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Judged by the share of SAHMs that cheat, it has very little to do with female emancipation and workplace equality. In the literature, female infidelity is a broad, recurring theme dating back to ancient times.

I doubt things have changed all that much in recent years.


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

my wife cheated with 2 different men who are ugly as sin..i hope they had huge d****..at least she would have gotten something good out of it...but what is up with the friends of the wives who cheat? i seen a couple of her facebook and twitter messages and they are congratulating her and telling her she deserves to have sex with other men.and one wanted to know how big one guys d**** was? wtf:scratchhead:


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## movin on (Jan 24, 2012)

I know it was wrong but I snooped on her mail and found she is cheating on me. I feel so bad for snooping. Really? You feel you violated her!?
i will never agree with this statement.its how i found out.and then i went to the pizzaria that she works at and called her out.


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## TooNiceDave (Dec 19, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Its our society and the general decline in the importance of marriage. More and more women are jumping on the Oprah train and putting their own needs before their husbands and children. It gets worse every year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

Funny thing I notice is that women seem to say they want a dedicated husband AFTER they have been out in the dating scene for a while. Like they live in complete fantasy then reality strikes after they have been out in the world for a while. 

I do agree that marriage has become a low priority. I also see this as getting worse.

Fifty-one percent of adult women are single. Now why the he!l would a woman EVER want to join that group? I guess they think this must mean the lifestyle is great?????

On the other hand, I know about 5 women that I feel are great prospects for a future relationship. This is without even looking. 

In my case I think my wife needs to learn the hard way, and she will, but I wont be around when she figures it all out.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

While there is the occasional OM who truly falls in love with a married woman and wants to make a life with her, there are 9 other OM that want nothing but to use the married woman for sex and then dump her once they grow tired of her. The strange thing is that wives seem to forget the valuable lesson given to them by their parents when they were young *'many men just want to have sex with you, not love you'*. They play the odds in a rigged game that almost always benefits the OM but seldom them.


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## mr.miketastic (Aug 5, 2010)

So does quoting statistics make men or women better? Frankly, I am tired of this stupid gender war. Women are no better than men and vice-versa. People cheat, it's a fricking fact of life be it man or woman...It happens. No gender is better than the other.


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## TooNiceDave (Dec 19, 2011)

mr.miketastic said:


> So does quoting statistics make men or women better? Frankly, I am tired of this stupid gender war. Women are no better than men and vice-versa. People cheat, it's a fricking fact of life be it man or woman...It happens. No gender is better than the other.


OK...I do agree with you on this. But what puzzles men, is that women seem to get nothing long-term from the cheating. And, in fact, often are more unhappy years later. I think this is what we notice. Something like being used in an affair provides them with validation such that they are willing to throw their life away for something so meaningless on the whole in terms of their life.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

mr.miketastic said:


> So does quoting statistics make men or women better? Frankly, I am tired of this stupid gender war. Women are no better than men and vice-versa. People cheat, it's a fricking fact of life be it man or woman...It happens. No gender is better than the other.


:iagree:


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## TooNiceDave (Dec 19, 2011)

One more thing, and I am not sure if this is common for others, but my wife's view of men is completely skewed. Listening to her talk you would think that the average man is 6'5" with a 9" d!*k. Seriously, its like she doesn't live on this planet. And she is FAR from hot herself.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> whom my I ask did all the men over the years cheat with?


Usually young single women....


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

working_together said:


> Usually young single women....


Correction, "anything with a skirt" ;~) With men it's about opportunity, what ever comes easiest. Single, married, widowed etc., it's all a matter of a woman simply saying yes. A man can't cheat without a willing woman and women are the only ones that can say "Yes". So it all boils down to you girls...... ;~)


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> Correction, "anything with a skirt" ;~) With men it's about opportunity, what ever comes easiest. Single, married, widowed etc., it's all a matter of a woman simply saying yes. A man can't cheat without a willing woman and women are the only ones that can say "Yes". So it all boils down to you girls...... ;~)


:iagree:

And if the woman was married as well the better. She would have as much to risk by the discovery of the affair as the married man she was cheating with.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Really? What's your basis for that?
> I've seen studies showing men lie more often than women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The MailOnline article posted earlier mentions this very thing. It also notes that is studies about the number of sex partners, the differences in the numbers given by men and women is different. 

It also notes that when comparing results from in person interviews and anonymous surveys, men's numbers tended to stay the same while women's numbers where generally higher for anonymous survyes. Speculation was that societal pressue made women down play the number of men they slept with. If this is true, it would not be improbably that women might downplay cheating as well.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Says who?!?! I'm asking seriously. You're portraying women as conniving b!tches and that's completely ridiculous. Just like portraying men as cheating scumbags is ridiculous.
> 
> It's one thing to say "wtf is wrong with wives" to vent steam and leave it at that. We all need to do that once in a while. But to actually try to argue that women are worse cheaters is a bit over the top.


The Mail Online article posted earlier says exactly this. It also notes that men and women typically report different numbers of sex partners, with women reporting a lower number. It also notes that when comparing results from in person interviews and anonymous surveys, men's numbers tended to stay the same while women's numbers where generally higher for anonymous surveys. Speculation was that societal pressue made women down play the number of men they slept with. If this is true, it would not be improbably that women might downplay cheating as well. 

It is certainly not my intent to say that all women are conniving b!tches and I certainly did not say that women were worse cheaters. I am only noting that the numbers on men and women cheating are likely closer than reported in these surveys.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I have seen stats that say that a large percentage of divorces are filed by women. In the articles I've read there is an assumption usually that women are just being frivolous because it's easy to divorce now.
> 
> But I don't think that most of the women are filing for fivolous reasons. I know quite a few divorced women. I only know of 2 that I think left for frivolous reasons.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with any of this, which is why I would not use the word fault. The independence that women have achieved has certainly raised the divorce rate (becuase many more women are not forced to stay in a bad marriage), but I don't see that as automatically a bad thing. As you note, divorce is often the best solution, so the fact that many women are divorce is not, in and of itself, a bad thing.

I don't pretend to know how often women divorce for good reasons vs bad (assuming we could even define the difference). Independence has given women more power. Most use it wisely, but some don't. That is the human condition.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Like you, I also resent the idea being tossed around that most women get divorces lightly. I did not divorce lightly either.


I haven't seen anyone claim that most women divorce frivolously. However, the issue of whether you divorced frivolously is entirely separate from whether a trend exists whereupon more and more women are divorcing frivolously.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

dgtal said:


> While our legal system keep on protecting these experienced predators there will be more and more happy marriages felling apart. They are smart enough to carry on their plans by systematicaly targeting their prey to a point of crushing your wife hidden “repressed desires” and making them vulnerable.
> You can make them meet your .357 by only showing it to them but don’t point it at them, you will eventually end up in jail, how about that. The jails are full of these LB nice husbands.


Statements like this seem to free a cheating wife of responsibility for her actions. After all, she simply fell victim to an experienced predator.
Women are not helpless children, and women who cheat do so by choice, not because some guy came along and duped them or made them vulnerable. They are not victims of anything but their own poor decisions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Statements like this seem to free a cheating wife of responsibility for her actions. After all, she simply fell victim to an experienced predator.
> Women are not helpless children, and women who cheat do so by choice, not because some guy came along and duped them or made them vulnerable. They are not victims of anything but their own poor decisions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



There is some truth to that, but if these men knew they stood an almost certain chance of "Pistols at Dawn" the odds of them preying on married women would certainly be less. Personally I think any man that would try an encourage a woman to break up a marriage with no divorce-able offenses and children should be beaten within a inch of his life.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I haven't seen anyone claim that most women divorce frivolously. However, the issue of whether you divorced frivolously is entirely separate from whether a trend exists whereupon more and more women are divorcing frivolously.


"Frivolous" is an entirely subjective concept. What you may see as a frivolous reason, someone else may see as a complete dealbreaker. One woman may swoon over her husband putting in 60 hours at work a week because it shows he's ambitious and a great provider. Another may divorce him because he's not spending enough time with her and the family. Is the latter acting frivolously?

That said, how exactly does one determine that there's a trend of women divorcing for frivolous reasons (assuming one could even define frivolous), and what is the evidence of said trend?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I haven't seen anyone claim that most women divorce frivolously. However, the issue of whether you divorced frivolously is entirely separate from whether a trend exists whereupon more and more women are divorcing frivolously.


It has been discussed a lot recently. It's a real problem and is getting worse. Here is an article by a woman who admits she divorced her husband for no good reason and regrets it.

Jennifer Nagy: Is It Easier To Deal With Divorce When You Made The Choice To Leave?

Here is an article on "Walk Away Wife Syndrome" from Psychology Today (yes, its so prevalent that it has its own psychological pathology).

The Walkaway Wife Syndrome | Psychology Today


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> "Frivolous" is an entirely subjective concept. What you may see as a frivolous reason, someone else may see as a complete dealbreaker. One woman may swoon over her husband putting in 60 hours at work a week because it shows he's ambitious and a great provider. Another may divorce him because he's not spending enough time with her and the family. Is the latter acting frivolously?
> 
> That said, how exactly does one determine that there's a trend of women divorcing for frivolous reasons (assuming one could even define frivolous), and what is the evidence of said trend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Look at this:

FRIVOLOUS DIVORCE

DON’T MAKE THE MISTAKE I MADE.

You’re probably a woman, like me, but men do it, too. Your marriage is boring and life is passing you by. You are dying on the vine and deserve more from life.

If you’re a woman, that life is about true love with your soul mate, even if you haven’t met him yet. If you’re a man, it’s all about sex. And man or woman, you are determined to get what you want….but first you need to be independent.

How do I know you so well? Because I was you. I’m just guessing about the minds of men, of course, but I know YOU, ladies. And I want to warn you about the mistake you are about to make.

You are about to commit something like a murder. Not a murder, but something like a murder. It will include death (the death of your family), grieving victims (your spouse and children, and eventually you), shame (hopefully you will be very ashamed one day), humiliation (your children will be embarrassed by your behavior and your spouse will be humiliated by the rejection), financial devastation (for everyone), and the intrusion of the State into the personal details of your life.

This site is not intended for victims of adultery, abuse, or other serious issues that may cause people to divorce. Rather, it is intended for those whose spouses have done nothing wrong and do not deserve to have their lives destroyed. It is intended for the frivolous.

Please read the warnings I’ve posted on this site before you file for a frivolous divorce. If I had only known then what I know now I would still be married to the wonderful husband that I threw away like a piece of garbage. Don’t make the same mistake I made.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> "Frivolous" is an entirely subjective concept. What you may see as a frivolous reason, someone else may see as a complete dealbreaker. One woman may see her husband putting in 60 hours of work a week as a sign that he's ambitious and a great provider. Another may divorce him because he's not spending enough time with her and the family. Is the latter acting frivolously?
> 
> That said, how exactly does one determine that there's a trend of women divorcing for frivolous reasons (assuming one could even define frivolous), and what is the evidence of said trend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Both of them. Many men never receive any direct input from wives, they are expected to read minds. If a guy needs to work 60 hours a week to provide what she says she needs and she does not make this plain to her husband and files, it's frivolous. This whole "communication" thing to me is a cop out, marriage is a 50/50 deal, if your unhappy , speak up in no uncertain terms.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> This is exactly my point. The poster I was responding to was using the DNA tests as proof that a large number of women have always engaged in infidelity. But that is not what this data tells us.


No, but the data may lend credence to his beliefs.

The fact is that around 95% of human history is unrecorded. So, we can't be sure of mating and family behaviors for that unrecorded past.

What we know, through genetic testing, is that the ratio of women mating with men was about 2:1. That means, for example, that if 80% of women ended up reproducing, they only used 40% of the men.

Whether this was accomplished with tribal chieftains having large harems while many men in the tribe remained celibate, or whether half the men simply took two wives and left the other half of the men sexless, or whether men and women paired off, but the women were having sex outside the pair-bond is an open question.

But, it is instructive that we now know a general habit of women and men in mating. It may be true that the modern institution of marriage being one man and one woman in an exclusive relationship seems to run counter to the nature of human reproductive history. It's kind of a square peg in a round hole.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> It has been discussed a lot recently. It's a real problem and is getting worse. Here is an article by a woman who admits she divorced her husband for no good reason and regrets it.
> 
> Jennifer Nagy: Is It Easier To Deal With Divorce When You Made The Choice To Leave?
> 
> ...


That second link seems to contradict your point. Rather than acting frivolously, it says the so-called walk away wife leaves only after years of trying to get her husband to address her needs and the problems in the marriage. Years. That hardly seems frivolous.
Problem is, at least according to that article, husbands often ignore the problems until his wife has checked out and it's too late to do anything about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

These are the results of a quiz posted on a website called Should I Divorce Him

Get advice, resources and women

The first result shows that only 19.4% of women say their husbands cheated on them.

The second result shows that 25.1% of women admitted cheating on their husbands. BTW, this survey was anonymous.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> That second link seems to contradict your point. Rather than acting frivolously, it says the so-called walk away wife leaves only after years of trying to get her husband to address her needs and the problems in the marriage. Years. That hardly seems frivolous.
> Problem is, at least according to that article, husbands often ignore the problems until his wife has checked out and it's too late to do anything about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you check divorce busters forums this is not often the case with WAWives, they often are conflict avoiders and seldom give their spouse hardly any warning. It's subject that's been softened up in the media, when you've experienced it, it's like your wife has become mentally ill. It's actually a form of MLC ,seemingly brought on by peri menopause if the truth were told.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> That second link seems to contradict your point. Rather than acting frivolously, it says the so-called walk away wife leaves only after years of trying to get her husband to address her needs and the problems in the marriage. Years. That hardly seems frivolous.
> Problem is, at least according to that article, husbands often ignore the problems until his wife has checked out and it's too late to do anything about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What constitutes a problem worthy of divorce? Does "I'm not happy" work as a reason? I can see divorce due to adultery, substance abuse, verbal/physical abuse. But many divorces today are due to someone "not being happy." If I leave the seat up and don't correct my behavior is that a reason to suffer the end of my marriage? Do you not recall the article posted recently that couples who have been married for years stated the reason for their marriage's longevity was that they simply outlasted the minor issues that other couples split up over?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> "Frivolous" is an entirely subjective concept. What you may see as a frivolous reason, someone else may see as a complete dealbreaker. One woman may swoon over her husband putting in 60 hours at work a week because it shows he's ambitious and a great provider. Another may divorce him because he's not spending enough time with her and the family. Is the latter acting frivolously?


I agree that it's subjective. I am Christian, so I base my beliefs on marriage in large part on Scripture. I think justifiable reasons for divorce are infidelity, physical abuse, and extreme emotional abuse, such as abandonment. So a divorce over working 60 hours a week would be frivolous in my eyes.

I would also include as frivolous, such often-cited reasons for divorce such as growing apart, lack of communication, or unhappiness.



FrankKissel said:


> That said, how exactly does one determine that there's a trend of women divorcing for frivolous reasons (assuming one could even define frivolous), and what is the evidence of said trend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/faculty/harvey/People's Reasons for Divorcing.pdf
This study cites frivolous reasons being a factor in divorce (multiple factors are allowed) in 62% of women and 87% of men. And this was in 1997. I only expect those numbers to be larger today.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> That second link seems to contradict your point. Rather than acting frivolously, it says the so-called walk away wife leaves only after years of trying to get her husband to address her needs and the problems in the marriage. Years. That hardly seems frivolous.
> Problem is, at least according to that article, husbands often ignore the problems until his wife has checked out and it's too late to do anything about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BTW, did you even read the article. It clearly states that yes these women tried to talk to their husbands but at some point they started planning an exit strategy. Their husbands don't hear the complaining anymore so they think that everything is ok. Its only when the wife drops the bomb that they discover different. Then, if the man is lucky, he is allowed to go to counseling to try to save his marriage. Why didn't his wife indicate the problems were that important by asking for marriage counseling before she started making plans to file?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

One other factor that isn't even being addressed is that marriage rates are going down every year at the same time that the call is being sounded for single men to step up and marry women who are looking for husbands. Could it be that men are gun shy about marriage?


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> No, but the data may lend credence to his beliefs.
> 
> The fact is that around 95% of human history is unrecorded. So, we can't be sure of mating and family behaviors for that unrecorded past.
> 
> ...


The problem with all these evolutionary psychology theories on our reproductive natures is that they seem to ignore that evolution is entirely about adapting to our environment and circumstances to improve our chances of survival. And that goes for reproduction as much as anything else.
One adaptation we've made over the millennia is from pure polyamory to pair bonding and even (gasp!) long-term monogamy. We've done this because it best serves a society's interests. We've discovered that monogamy - or the promise of it - leads to greater political and economic stability. Fathers with greater certainty in the paternity of children and the fidelity of mates are more vested in the care of protection of both. They ensure a future for their children. They pass wealth down to the next generation. And as we've established this as the social norm over the generations - and understood that it's best for our survival - it, via evolution, becomes our nature. 
Of course, this doesn't go for every person on earth, but there's a reason it's become the societal norm.

It's weird. Evolutionary theorists correctly note how mankind has evolved and changed dramatically when it comes to our physical bodies, our intellect, our ability to control our environment, our social structures, etc. And yet when it comes to reproduction and sexuality, the prevalent attitude is that we're still just a bunch of rhesus monkeys and that any change and adaptation since we left the caves is "unnatural."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> These are the results of a quiz posted on a website called Should I Divorce Him
> 
> Get advice, resources and women
> 
> ...


Web site quizes, polls etc are not scientific. Generally people with a dog in the show will participate more than those who don't.

Also it's known that more than half of the time a person never finds out about their spouse's infidelty.

That site only tells us something about the people who posted on the site. It does not tell us anything about marriages and infidelity as a whole.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> The problem with all these evolutionary psychology theories on our reproductive natures is that they seem to ignore that evolution is entirely about adapting to our environment and circumstances to improve our chances of survival. And that goes for reproduction as much as anything else.
> One adaptation we've made over the millennia is from pure polyamory to pair bonding and even (gasp!) long-term monogamy. We've done this because it best serves a society's interests. We've discovered that monogamy - or the promise of it - leads to greater political and economic stability. Fathers with greater certainty in the paternity of children and the fidelity of mates are more vested in the care of protection of both. They ensure a future for their children. They pass wealth down to the next generation. And as we've established this as the social norm over the generations - and understood that it's best for our survival - it, via evolution, becomes our nature.
> Of course, this doesn't go for every person on earth, but there's a reason it's become the societal norm.
> 
> ...


Not true. This study shows that humans are evolving biologically and not just socially toward monogamy.

http://hera.ugr.es/doi/15009579.pdf

Sorry if I keep throwing these articles out there but I'm an avid reader and I love to learn.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I agree that it's subjective. I am Christian, so I base my beliefs on marriage in large part on Scripture. I think justifiable reasons for divorce are infidelity, physical abuse, and extreme emotional abuse, such as abandonment. So a divorce over working 60 hours a week would be frivolous in my eyes.
> 
> I would also include as frivolous, such often-cited reasons for divorce such as growing apart, lack of communication, or unhappiness.
> 
> ...


This study give the results of interviews with 208 people. That's a very small sample size and it believe not large enough for conclusive results.

The article is interesting but hardly conclusive.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Not true. This study shows that humans are evolving biologically and not just socially toward monogamy.
> 
> http://hera.ugr.es/doi/15009579.pdf
> 
> Sorry if I keep throwing these articles out there but I'm an avid reader and I love to learn.


Hmmm ... Not quite sure what you're trying to say here. 
Explain what digit ratios has to do with the social construct or monogamy becoming our nature because it's best for our survival.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Hmmm ... Not quite sure what you're trying to say here.
> Explain what digit ratios has to do with the social construct or monogamy becoming our nature because it's best for our survival.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know its difficult to follow but basically what the study is saying is that digit ratios correspond to peoples "tastes" in relationships. Example:

Males, because they produce low-cost sperm, are able to fertilize many eggs. Females, because they produce high-cost ova, are limited to smaller numbers of offspring. In populations with polygyny or frequent extra-pair copulations (EPCs), the variance of male reproductive success is high. That is, a small proportion of successful males may fertilize a high proportion of eggs. When strict monogamy is practiced by most females, the variance in male reproductive success is similar to that of females. In such a situation, polygyny or EPCs may be a successful female strategy if there is substantial heritable variance in male fitness. If there is little such variance, female monogamy would be favored.

Suppose there are two loci controlling in utero hormonal exposure: one influencing testosterone levels and the other estrogen. A mutation arises at the testoster- one locus of a male, which increases in utero exposure. He has high testosterone levels and sperm counts, and these traits are passed on to his sons. However, because sex limitation is incomplete, his daughters have reduced fertility. The existence of such a male or small numbers of such males increases the variance in male fitness and favors a polygynous or EPC strategy in females. The high testosterone mutation will spread and with it the frequency of polygyny or EPCs. However, as the mutation becomes common, the variance in male fitness declines and females switch to increasing frequencies of monogamy. Now conditions favor the spread of a mutation at the estrogen locus, which increases in utero estrogen exposure. Alternating cycles of high prenatal testosterone and high prenatal estrogen will ccur. This is interlocus coevolution of sexually anagonistic genes. Such coevolution has the characteristics of the Red Queen process (Rice and Holland, 1997). Sexually antagonistic genes should affect fertility and, because of population cycles, may be at different frequencies in different populations. In populations with high prenatal exposure to testosterone in both males and females, there may be substantial differences in the variance in male and female reproductive success.

A negative relationship between 2D:4D and offspring number would be expected in males and a positive association in females. In addition, there will be selective pressure for the accumulation of modifiers that cause sex-limited expression. A population that is highly estrogenized in utero would have no marked difference in variance of male and female repro- ductive success, no strong correlation between 2D:4D ratio and offspring number, and little selective pressure for sex-limited expression of prenatal genes.

There is little variance in Polish male fitness, as judged by their tight gradient digit ratios. Poland is a place where female monogamy is favored. The fact that Polish men also have relatively high digit ratios suggests that the men are, like their women, more favorable to monogamy.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I agree that it's subjective. I am Christian, so I base my beliefs on marriage in large part on Scripture. I think justifiable reasons for divorce are infidelity, physical abuse, and extreme emotional abuse, such as abandonment. So a divorce over working 60 hours a week would be frivolous in my eyes.
> 
> I would also include as frivolous, such often-cited reasons for divorce such as growing apart, lack of communication, or unhappiness.
> 
> ...


Well, again, you're using your own subjective opinion to determine what is frivolous (I note nowhere in the study is the term "frivolous" used).
It may be easy for you to say unhappiness isn't a reason for divorce, but it's not my place to cast aspersions on a person who chooses to leave an unhappy marriage.
Also, where are you getting those 62/87 percent figures?
According to the study, 25 percent of women cite infidelity, 14 percent cite substance abuse and 9 percent cite physical or mental abuse. That's at least 48 percent citing anything but frivolous reasons.
I'll note only 3 percent cited "unhappiness."
Lastly, based on this data, doesn't it appear that when it comes to the reasons for divorce, it's men who are the frivolous ones? After all, we cite "don't know" "unhappiness" and "grew apart" twice as often as women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

movin on said:


> my wife cheated with 2 different men who are ugly as sin..i hope they had huge d****..at least she would have gotten something good out of it...but what is up with the friends of the wives who cheat? i seen a couple of her facebook and twitter messages and they are congratulating her and telling her she deserves to have sex with other men.and one wanted to know how big one guys d**** was? wtf:scratchhead:


That is the you go girl in action.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Statements like this seem to free a cheating wife of responsibility for her actions. After all, she simply fell victim to an experienced predator.
> Women are not helpless children, and women who cheat do so by choice, not because some guy came along and duped them or made them vulnerable. They are not victims of anything but their own poor decisions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think it is an either or. Holding the woman responsible is fine. Do that, but you do not have to give the predator a free pass.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

You don't need a college degree to make sandwiches, that's why.


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## mr.miketastic (Aug 5, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Well, again, you're using your own subjective opinion to determine what is frivolous (I note nowhere in the study is the term "frivolous" used).
> It may be easy for you to say unhappiness isn't a reason for divorce, but it's not my place to cast aspersions on a person who chooses to leave an unhappy marriage.
> Also, where are you getting those 62/87 percent figures?
> According to the study, 25 percent of women cite infidelity, 14 percent cite substance abuse and 9 percent cite physical or mental abuse. That's at least 48 percent citing anything but frivolous reasons.
> ...


Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Cheaters come in both genders. If someone needs to point out that it's almost always one gender or the other, they are clearly looking at the issue through their own personal filters. Men AND women cheat, it's a fact, haggling over who is the worst is at best, a losing game.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Someone wanted scientific studies, here's two from *Infidelity dissected: New research on why people cheat*.



> *Infidelity dissected: New research on why people cheat *
> 08 septembre 2008
> _*Probability of cheating during the course of a relationship varies between 40 and 76 percent*_
> 
> ...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

mr.miketastic said:


> Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Cheaters come in both genders. If someone needs to point out that it's almost always one gender or the other, they are clearly looking at the issue through their own personal filters. Men AND women cheat, it's a fact, haggling over who is the worst is at best, a losing game.


:iagree: Absolutely. :iagree:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> The problem with all these evolutionary psychology theories on our reproductive natures is that they seem to ignore that evolution is entirely about adapting to our environment and circumstances to improve our chances of survival. And that goes for reproduction as much as anything else.


Not at all. Of course our behaviors are evolving. However, the main problem with evo-psych critics seems to be placing human intellect on a pedestal and assuming that people, and societies, will always act rationally.

We understand how our taste buds evolved to prefer sweet foods and dislike bitter foods. Sweet foods tended to be high in calories and nutrition, while bitter foods were often harmful.

But now, we know what foods are and which ones are good for us. One could argue that our preferences for sweet foods has out-lived its usefulness. But I'm still not investing in turnip-flavored lollypops. In this case, thousands of generations of evolution trumps the nutritional labels printed on the back of our foods.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> This study give the results of interviews with 208 people. That's a very small sample size and it believe not large enough for conclusive results.
> 
> The article is interesting but hardly conclusive.


In the news today, you'll probably see a poll cited in the US, Republican presidential primary. The pollsters, who are generally pretty accurate, don't have to ask every single voter who he will be voting for in order to gauge the electorate's current position on the candidates. They generally ask a few hundred people and have a relatively small margin of error.

Needless to say, the authors of the study I linked to understand credibility theory well enough to draw valid conclusions from the information contained in the study.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Not at all. Of course our behaviors are evolving. However, the main problem with evo-psych critics seems to be placing human intellect on a pedestal and assuming that people, and societies, will always act rationally.
> 
> We understand how our taste buds evolved to prefer sweet foods and dislike bitter foods. Sweet foods tended to be high in calories and nutrition, while bitter foods were often harmful.
> 
> But now, we know what foods are and which ones are good for us. One could argue that our preferences for sweet foods has out-lived its usefulness. But I'm still not investing in turnip-flavored lollypops. In this case, thousands of generations of evolution trumps the nutritional labels printed on the back of our foods.


Well, yeah, I am putting human intelligence on a pedestal. We didn't become the dominant (by light years) species because we're the biggest/fastest/strongest, the most capable of defending ourselves, reproduce the most, or because we're the most peaceful. We did it because we're the smartest.
Yeah, individuals and subsets of society occasionally act against their own interests for brief periods of time, but we're talking big picture here.

And actually, yes, we do in the long term always act rationally. Our survival depends on it. That's not to say there won't be brief (relatively speaking) periods of irrationality as we adjust to our circumstances, but ultimately we will do what's necessary to survive and thrive, and that behavior becomes our nature, as opposed to how we acted 100,000 years ago.

I mean, I'm talking about how what we've learned from thousands of years of building civilizations, and your counterpoint is some of us eat too much junk food these days?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> In the news today, you'll probably see a poll cited in the US, Republican presidential primary. The pollsters, who are generally pretty accurate, don't have to ask every single voter who he will be voting for in order to gauge the electorate's current position on the candidates. They generally ask a few hundred people and have a relatively small margin of error.
> 
> Needless to say, the authors of the study I linked to understand credibility theory well enough to draw valid conclusions from the information contained in the study.


I am very much aware about sampling and statistics. I am also very much aware of how the sample used/chosen and skew the results.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Well, again, you're using your own subjective opinion to determine what is frivolous (I note nowhere in the study is the term "frivolous" used).


I agreed to exactly that in the post you responded to. This is my definition, which is, I believe, a fairly mainstream, Christian definition, of frivolous divorce.



FrankKissel said:


> It may be easy for you to say unhappiness isn't a reason for divorce, but it's not my place to cast aspersions on a person who chooses to leave an unhappy marriage.


Yes. The fact is that unhappiness is such a nebulous reason as to be useless. Most people (everyone?), at some time during their lives, will be unhappy. If we, as a society, recognize unhappiness as a valid reason to blow up a family, then we have given permission to everyone to divorce. Now, the fact is that, through no-fault divorce laws in the West, we literally have given everyone permission to divorce. But I don't view that development as necessarily positive.



FrankKissel said:


> Also, where are you getting those 62/87 percent figures?


I added up the responses for each sex for the reasons I consider frivolous. Those being things such as unhappiness, loss of love, lack of communication, "don't know", etc.



FrankKissel said:


> According to the study, 25 percent of women cite infidelity, 14 percent cite substance abuse and 9 percent cite physical or mental abuse. That's at least 48 percent citing anything but frivolous reasons.


It's at most 48 percent. Some respondents listed multiple reasons.



FrankKissel said:


> I'll note only 3 percent cited "unhappiness."
> Lastly, based on this data, doesn't it appear that when it comes to the reasons for divorce, it's men who are the frivolous ones? After all, we cite "don't know" "unhappiness" and "grew apart" twice as often as women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps. Remember, women instigate two-thirds of divorces. So men may really not know why their wives divorced. No-fault laws don't require a reason. Other studies suggest men feign ignorance in order to avoid taking responsibility for helping break up the marriage.

All the study can really show is that a large number of marriages have a frivolous reason as one of the contributing factors for divorce.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

mr.miketastic said:


> Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Cheaters come in both genders. If someone needs to point out that it's almost always one gender or the other, they are clearly looking at the issue through their own personal filters. Men AND women cheat, it's a fact, haggling over who is the worst is at best, a losing game.


I don't think most posters are arguing whether men are better than women, or vice versa. However, I disagree about the utility of statistics and understanding behavior by each sex. I think it can be extremely useful.

What are men looking for in marriage? What are women looking for? What will each sex do if they don't get it? Why?

People who can answer those questions, or at least admit that the answer isn't that men and women behave in exactly the same ways, will have a leg up on having a happy relationship.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> In the news today, you'll probably see a poll cited in the US, Republican presidential primary. The pollsters, who are generally pretty accurate, don't have to ask every single voter who he will be voting for in order to gauge the electorate's current position on the candidates. They generally ask a few hundred people and have a relatively small margin of error.
> 
> Needless to say, the authors of the study I linked to understand credibility theory well enough to draw valid conclusions from the information contained in the study.


Gallup and most other national polling firms rarely use less than 1,000 - and oftentimes more - when conducting a national poll. 208 is indeed too small to make any widespread conclusions. 
The Iowa study becomes even more shaky after you read its methodology.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I think there are just as many valid studies to indicate that men and women cheat equally.

thats all. if anybody wants to believe differently good for them.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> I mean, I'm talking about how what we've learned from thousands of years of building civilizations, and your counterpoint is some of us eat too much junk food these days?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sure. You're arguing that evolution is rational and happens over relatively short periods of time (hundreds or a few thousand years). I'm showing that it's not.

We can each agree that there was a rational purpose to humans evolving a preference for sweet foods over bitter foods. And we can each agree that that rational purpose no longer exists. So, we're waiting for evolution to catch up to reality.

Will it happen in my lifetime? No. So, recognizing the biological influences on our behavior can help us understand our behavior and accept it. Arguing that reason always trumps biology is not only unhelpful, it's silly.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> I am very much aware about sampling and statistics. I am also very much aware of how the sample used/chosen and skew the results.


Do you think the sample was chosen poorly? In the post I responded to, you only argued that the number of participants invalidated the study. And that's not true.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Gallup and most other national polling firms rarely use less than 1,000 - and oftentimes more - when conducting a national poll. 208 is indeed too small to make any widespread conclusions.


Obviously, pollsters like to use as high a number of responses as possible. I acknowledge that the higher the number, the more accurate the poll. However, they frequently use less than 1,000. The latest GOP primary polls use around 400 participants.

I will acknowledge that the margin of error with 208 is higher than with 1,000. That doesn't mean the poll is invalid.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Obviously, pollsters like to use as high a number of responses as possible. I acknowledge that the higher the number, the more accurate the poll. However, they frequently use less than 1,000. The latest GOP primary polls use around 400 participants.


State poll or national poll?
Likely voters or anyone of voting age?
Republicans only or all voters?
You'd need a smaller sample size if you're limiting yourself geographically or by the type of person you're polling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

I think the idea behind the original post is that women have always been the ones preaching and harping about wanting relationships and wanting good men and wanting, wanting, wanting, yet they are on even footing with men where cheating is concerned. 
So it's fair to assume that the sex asking for these things would show a dramatically lower cheating number than the one not asking for them. 
As for the whole cheating more now than back in the day. Don't be foolish. Where do you think all the talk of "cheating with the milk man" came from? Women staying at home were cheating too, it's just that it was more discreet, and husbands coming home from work too tired to even notice anything, so the whole thing went undetected. And as many women here have alluded to, women are better at keeping affairs secret than men, so by that argument alone, it is fair to reason that their number would be higher. It's just like when they say when a woman tells you her number of partners, you multiply it by 3 to get the true amount.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)




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## TooNiceDave (Dec 19, 2011)

Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing

By Jane Gordon

Last weekend, at a family wedding in the country, I was overwhelmed by an emotion that has, in the last year, become only too familiar to me.

Sitting in a stifling marquee, listening to my cousin Sally's husband making the traditional father-of-the-bride speech, I was overcome by a feeling that was part envy, part guilt and part regret.

My cousin's marriage, which has lasted for 25 years, is by no means perfect - what marriage is? - but against the odds, she has achieved something that is now, and always will be, beyond my grasp.

As I looked at her sitting happy and radiant at the top table, laughing uproariously at her husband's far from funny jokes, I realised that, in a world that has horribly devalued the institution of marriage, she was reaping the benefits of putting the love and security of her family first, before any disagreements she might have with her husband in the rough and tumble of daily life.

Watching her united with her husband on such an emotional occasion reminded me sharply of exactly what I had lost - but had no idea I was losing - seven years ago, when I got divorced from my husband, the father of my three children, after 25 years together.

Our relationship had broken down, I can now see, not because of any petty irritations such as his lateness or my untidiness, but because we had both moved irrevocably away from each other.

In the past few years of our marriage, I was more absorbed in my children and my career than I was in my husband while he, feeling increasingly isolated, simply switched off.

It's a scenario that will be familiar to many couples. But how many of them choose to separate, and how many have the gumption to stick it out?

The trouble is nobody tells you the truth about divorce. They tell you it's a 'difficult' experience, and it's generally accepted that the process sits somewhere near the top of the ten most stressful life events.

But in the main it is regarded by society as a necessary evil. A milestone which, in an age when two in five UK marriages will fail, millions of us will go through at some point in our lives.

Indeed, in many ways, divorce is given a more positive spin in our confused modern world than marriage is.

The drawbacks of divorce are believed to be mostly either financial - as if the splitting up of the spoils of a life together were the very worst part of the process - or the fallout experienced by the children.

Little is ever said about the longer-term effects of divorce on the couple. No one ever points out that the repercussions of a marital split will reverberate down the timeline of your life forever.

This week, the Conservatives published a report commissioned by Iain Duncan Smith which proposed a three-month 'cooling off' period for couples considering divorce.

But the idea that couples would be ready to rethink their break-up after such a short period is unrealistic.

As I have discovered the hard way, it is only now, seven years after I received my decree nisi, that I am starting to realise the gravity of what I have done.

If it has taken me this long for the seismic shockwaves of divorce to really hit home, how are warring couples expected to take an informed decision about separation when they are in the midst of the rows, the tension and the recrimination that so often accompany the death throes of a marriage?

It is only now that I am experiencing something akin to the seven-year 'itch' of marriage; the seven-year 'ache' of divorce, a regular recurrence of the emotion I experienced at that recent wedding - a pang, a regret for what has gone for ever.

There is much in my post-divorced life that I am grateful for and happy about. I have gained a new partner and two stepchildren, and our 'blended' family is more harmonious than anyone could have expected.

My ex-husband, who is a media consultant, has 'moved on' to a perfectly ordered and elegant bachelor apartment and a social life (with a series of ever-younger girlfriends) that is the envy of his old married friends.

On the surface, we have 'come through' our split relatively unscathed. But however contented I might be with my new partner Robin - and he with me - we realise that our relationship is, well, somehow second-best.

Our true loyalties lie not with our new 'blended' family, but with our own biological children and the ex-partners from whom we were both amicably divorced.

The important occasions in family life which I used to love - birthdays, Christmas and so on - are now difficult, trying times.

They are unsatisfactory no matter how hard we try; whether my partner and I attempt - as we have on several occasions - to unite our new and old lives or agree to simply be apart for the 'sake' of our children.

Now, for example, we spend Christmas apart - each ensconced with our children and ex-partners - which causes huge tension between us and has made us both dread the annual celebrations.

When my husband and I parted, my view of divorce was simplistic. I believed in the notion of divorce as a clean break and imagined a 'fresh start' would solve all my problems.

It wasn't a decision made lightly, but I had no idea of the true complexity of unravelling a life that had been led in tandem with someone else for more than 20 years.

It was the death of my parents, within six months of each other in 2008, that was the catalyst for my change of heart.

At my father's funeral, my brother made a moving address about the formidable achievements of an extraordinary man. He concluded that the greatest achievement of all was his remarkable partnership - over 60 years - with my mother.

The fact that I had not been able to give my own children the security that I had taken for granted shamed and upset me almost as much as the loss of my adored parents.

My children hadn't lost their parents when my husband and I divorced, but they had lost their family home and the continuity of family life that makes the journey from childhood to adulthood so much more comforting and secure.

It was at that funeral that I first experienced the feeling - part envy, part guilt and part regret - that has haunted me ever since.

With my new partner sympathetically sitting by my side and my ex-husband (who shared so much of my family history and yet had somehow been edited out of it), standing in the gallery, I truly understood what I had lost.

And there have been countless other moments in the past year when I have experienced similar feelings.

Last month, I attended a dinner party thrown by a close female friend whose own marriage had shifted perilously close to the edge of divorce, shortly after mine did, because her husband had an affair.

At the time of my break-up, my view of other people's marriages was as skewed as my view of my own, and I viewed her reluctance to divorce in a cynical way - imagining that her main motivation was her fear of losing her status as a married woman.

But I now see there was a much more selfless reason for her tenacity. Because a marriage, however imperfect, isn't just important in the happy moments of life - a child's graduation or wedding for example - but also in the bad times.

Shortly after my friend and her errant husband were reunited, he lost his high-flying City job and he now admits that it would not have been possible for him to recover from that (they started a successful new business together) without her love and support.

Their relationship has changed - my friend admits that she is still wounded by his infidelity - but losing her trust in him for a time is nothing to what she would have lost had she gone ahead with her divorce.

Back then, I couldn't understand her ability to accept his behaviour. But now I have nothing but admiration for the way she was able to take a longer view of her own marriage.

Indeed, I have a similar sense of admiration and envy for a handful of other still-married friends whose relationships I had viewed somewhat cynically because they displayed such open animosity towards each other.

A good marriage - I now realise - is dependent upon the ability of both partners occasionally to be selfless and to compromise.

It is, of course, ironic that divorce has strengthened my belief in marriage. But then the years haven't just changed my view of divorce; they have inevitably blurred my memory of the reasons for our split.

Somewhere in my new home there is a large brown envelope filled with the reasons why we parted, duly noted down by lawyers, but the passage of time has made those mutually exasperating irritations seem petty.

In 2002, they were real and seemingly insurmountable. Had someone told me the truth about divorce then - explained exactly how, in the years ahead, it would impact on my life - perhaps we would still be together.
It is impossible to go back, but at the same time my divorce makes it difficult for me to move forward.

Maybe one day my new partner and I will marry, but the impact of our break-ups - he divorced several years before me - has so far prevented us from making a legal commitment to each other.

Our mutual fears that re-marriage will somehow invalidate our original families, and his concerns about the financial loss he would endure should our marriage subsequently break down, make the notion of a wedding unlikely.

But my divorce hasn't just had a major impact on the likelihood of re-marrying. I worry, too, that it has affected my children's view of marriage.

Will the repercussions of my break-up not only reverberate down the timeline of my life but also the timelines of my children's lives?

My daughters were 19 and 22 when I divorced and my son, who lives with me, was just ten.

Seven years on, my daughters are both much more focused on their careers than their love-lives, and show no sign of settling down in the way that my cousin Sally's daughter - several years younger - has done.

The long-term effects of my divorce, then, may not only deny me the opportunity to be a bride again and thus, in some way, legitimise my new relationship in the eyes of the world.

But they also could prevent me from being the mother-of-the-bride and - ultimately - a grandmother.

To paraphrase William Congreve's famous quote: 'Divorce in haste, repent at leisure.'

Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing | Mail Online


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

mr.miketastic said:


> Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Cheaters come in both genders. If someone needs to point out that it's almost always one gender or the other, they are clearly looking at the issue through their own personal filters. Men AND women cheat, it's a fact, haggling over who is the worst is at best, a losing game.


That's true. People cheat. Men and women alike and probably at the same ratios.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

TooNiceDave said:


> Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing
> 
> By Jane Gordon
> 
> ...


I like this article, and I agree with what she wrote overall. But even here she seems to be demonstrating that same attitude that may have led in part to her divorce to begin with. I'm thinking of the part where she says her current partnership is 'second best' and all that. Sometimes I think people who divorce frivolously and (in other cases, not hers) cheat like there's no tomorrow just don't get that there isn't 'perfect' out there. There's just making your promise and then sticking to it. She still doesn't seem to quite get that, but now instead of assuming 'perfection' is still to come, she pines for some idealized past that involved her original marriage. It's really just too bad that sometimes people have to make things so tough for themselves and for everyone around them.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm reading a really interesting book right now called "For Better: The Science of a Good Marriage" by Tara Parker-Pope. It's pretty current (2010) and the author writes a health blog for the NY Times. It covers everything from the initial attraction between partners to problems in relationships to preventing or recovering from divorce -- all using evidence from sociological surveys, biological studies, brain scans, etc. 

I recommend it mostly because it is interesting for studying humans in general, but there are things in it that I've been able to relate to regarding relationships with which I'm familiar.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

angelpixie said:


> I'm reading a really interesting book right now called "For Better: The Science of a Good Marriage" by Tara Parker-Pope. It's pretty current (2010) and the author writes a health blog for the NY Times. It covers everything from the initial attraction between partners to problems in relationships to preventing or recovering from divorce -- all using evidence from sociological surveys, biological studies, brain scans, etc.
> 
> I recommend it mostly because it is interesting for studying humans in general, but there are things in it that I've been able to relate to regarding relationships with which I'm familiar.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'm always looking for new reading material. I'm a bit of a bookworm.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> My next door neighbor's wife left him and three kids to be with a guy that she knew had three gf's. He was a druggie. She works for the courts. All around the time I was dealing with my crap. One day I went out with my wife and he was standing in my driveway crying (I have known this family for over 15 years and never saw him cry). We talked and I told him what I am going through. His wife came back to him about a month ago and they are working on R.
> 
> My neighbor is a cool guy. Works hard. A local truck driver - very few times a year he might do one or two long hauls. The kids all in their teens adore him.
> 
> Yea, why would a college educated woman hook up with a drug using man who she knew was ******* at least three other women. And they all were fighting over this man. I met him once and man is he scum, and I mean scum. I don't get it.


Its because guys like that used to end up in the hospital or worse. People are no longer allowed to protect their families. At least overtly.


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## FrustratedFL (May 18, 2011)

Here is very sad but true statistic:

My 12 yr old daughter had a birthday/sleepover with 5 other 12 yr old girls lasy night.

I heard the girls all talking in the other room about counseling sessions due to divorce. 

One girl lives with her married parents.
One girl was conceived from an extra-marital affair and never met her dad.
One girl's parents recently divorced due to her dads infidelity with another MAN. 
One girl lives with her dad and siblings due to her Moms affair. 
And my daughter who is living with me while her dad and I are going through the divorce due to his 2 affairs.

The All American family. Sad!


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FrustratedFL said:


> Here is very sad but true statistic:
> 
> My 12 yr old daughter had a birthday/sleepover with 5 other 12 yr old girls lasy night.
> 
> ...


When they started calling it the nuclear family who knew blowing it up was actually the ultimate outcome.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

While these unfaithful wives may represent a small sector of the female population, the effect they are having is tremendous. I'm beginning to see this with friends who have been cheated on by their wives advising younger men not to follow in their footsteps (getting married and having kids). This bodes ill for the future.


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## mestalla guy (Mar 20, 2012)

Kricket said:


> I am probably gonna catch crap for this one, but here is my theory:
> 
> There was a time when a couple was married or when a man claimed a woman to be his wife, it was understood that no other man was to approach her or hit on her without receiving the wrath of a very jealous and armed husband. Nowadays the other man is just not afraid of the husband and has no problem approaching a married woman. Who is the afraid of the man that is at home doing the laundry while his wife is out hanging out with her new beau? No one! I wouldn't be. Now, I don't advocate that a husband owns his wife or should have a gun, so please don't send me any hate email. I am just pointing out that there is always a man out there that will be ready to strike at a woman that is available and if that happens to be a married woman with a pushover for a husband, than so be it.
> 
> ...




Agree with some parts of your theory. It is an absolute fact that woman (even not particularly attractive woman) will get more attention of other men than the other way around. Going to nightclubs is the perfect example of this; girls no matter what they look like will always have attention. Don’t get me wrong, that says a lot about us men as well, but that’s the way it is. 

Married women get loads more attention, you are absolutely right about this. Some women will act on this attention but most wont and are decent people. I’m 25, so I still enjoy night clubs and stuff and i see obviously married women acting inappropriately all the time, same for men. My opinion on this topic is that it’s 50/50. Women are as bad as men can be in every single way.


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## mestalla guy (Mar 20, 2012)

mikeydread1982 said:


> I think the idea behind the original post is that women have always been the ones preaching and harping about wanting relationships and wanting good men and wanting, wanting, wanting, yet they are on even footing with men where cheating is concerned.
> So it's fair to assume that the sex asking for these things would show a dramatically lower cheating number than the one not asking for them.
> As for the whole cheating more now than back in the day. Don't be foolish. Where do you think all the talk of "cheating with the milk man" came from? Women staying at home were cheating too, it's just that it was more discreet, and husbands coming home from work too tired to even notice anything, so the whole thing went undetected. And as many women here have alluded to, women are better at keeping affairs secret than men, so by that argument alone, it is fair to reason that their number would be higher. It's just like when they say when a woman tells you her number of partners, you multiply it by 3 to get the true amount.


So true, it’s always annoyed the hell out of me how some women talk about men, usually IN A VERY NEGATIVE SENSE, yet they are every bit as adulterous as we are. Let’s face facts, women hold all the trump cards these days, time men started realising that female cheating is sky high as well, time we started viewing women with the suspicion we have be viewed by for ever


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

mestalla guy said:


> So true, it’s always annoyed the hell out of me how some women talk about men, usually IN A VERY NEGATIVE SENSE, yet they are every bit as adulterous as we are. Let’s face facts, women hold all the trump cards these days, time men started realising that female cheating is sky high as well, time we started viewing women with the suspicion we have be viewed by for ever


It all boils down to the fact that only the woman can say "Yes". If they all had any morals there would not be any infidelity. All a guy can do is ask....Think about it.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> This is one of the things I'm embarrassed to admit really surprised me when we'd had problems in recent years. I caught her before she cheated, but she was moving in that direction with this other guy. I was shocked to find that she thought the way she finally admitted to thinking. Any time a woman even looked at me, I got an earful even if I hadn't done a thing. But she had no problem talking dirty with this guy when she thought I wouldn't find out. There really isn't any difference between the genders when it comes to a willingness to cheat. I guess I'm glad that this site has helped me to see that. Of course, as you mention, this hasn't changed her "negative talk" about me and other women at all. After all she's put me through with this, if an attractive woman is on tv, she'll get mad at me for seeing her as if I was doing wrong somehow. I just look at her now, dead in the eye, and I say, "Really, you're complaining about me?" She shuts up then. I think the complaining about men wanting to cheat is just something women may be hardwired to do. Maybe it distracts from their own bad thoughts or behaviors. But I think people are right, there are as many female cheats as male cheats.


There has to be, otherwise who would the men be cheating with? And the other aspect is the woman has to say "yes" before any affair can happen......A man really has no say in it at all.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

airplane888 said:


> so whats the deal with the % of men vs women that cheat, so like is the same woman cheating over and over again to make the % that much different ...
> 
> airplane


Well, if they cheat once and get away with it, human nature being what it is they'll do it again. The men will do it to, but you can't have an affair unless someone else says "yes". If every woman said "NO" there would not be any hetero- sexual infidelity.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> Well I think we as a society depended on the whole "so and so is a tramp" kind of theory to explain things in days past. All the husbands were cheating, and they were doing it with the divorced woman at the end of the block, or so the story went. Of course today we know this isn't really how it works, and it probably didn't work that way then.


It's the dirty little secret that's been kept quiet since for ever. Married women cheat just as much as men, they are just better about hiding it. My wife , who normally could never hide a lie to save her life kept an affair going for at least six months without me figuring what was going on.


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## mrmagoo (Feb 21, 2012)

Broncos Fan said:


> I've seen several professors who do these types of studies emphasize that the numbers are self reported. I think the implication is that the rates of adultery are essentially the same, but women are somewhat less likely to admit it.
> It's not that they lie, but they literally cannot comprehend that they've betrayed their spouse. They truly believe somehow that they didn't cheat.
> 
> She says usually these women can't be convinced that what they did amounts to cheating, though the spouse would certainly have considered it that. She then works on other parts of the marriage because there isn't any point trying to convince those women who think this way that they did anything wrong. I assume such women also skew the numbers a bit, even though they're pretty uncommon overall.



My wife has no remorse for her EA and says she did nothing wrong and said it's all my fault anyway. Also says by the way, I don't love you anymore, let's stay together. Confused?


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> You realize that people conceal their marital status, right? Or will say things like "we are separated/ing," whatever. To put the onus of cheating on one gender is ridiculous, the cheaters are the ones messing up not a nebulous cloud of women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No it's not ridiculous, if the woman says "yes" it's on, she say's "No" it's not. It's not very hard these days to find out if someone is single or not, hell you can do it right from your phone via a google/facebook/linked in/twitter search. 

If you are going to hop in the sack that quick without at least checking them out it indicates you really don't want to know the truth.....


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

i think there is some truth to this...
this is from a post from a manosphere blog ive read..

Femininity – You Have To Take The Good With The Bad « The Private Man


i think the 2nd point kinda sums up what your saying.

for those who dont want to click the link...

"Femininity – You Have To Take The Good With The Bad
The Manosphere has a huge hue and cry over the lack of femininity in modern, American women. We decry the dearth of feminine appearance and attitude. Every single Manosphere blog, website, and forum has a multitude of posts and comments about this subject. It’s often strident. We are demanding femininity yet we’re not completely understanding femininity.
There is a core group of female characteristics that is most vexing to men:
•	Emotional weakness
•	Lack of introspection
•	Selfishness
•	Lack of logic and reason
It is important to know that these are female characteristics hard-wired into the female brain. They will never, ever go away. Perhaps one of my readers will delve in the evolutionary psychology behind this. With that in mind, it’s utterly pointless to waste our precious time on telling women to behave better. Complaining about these characteristics (I am guilty of this, too) makes us appear, well, feminine.


and the first post in the comments that i think summarizes each point very well..esp. the second

"deti / December 6, 2011 Emotional weakness: women let their emotions govern them. They make decisions based on emotions. Women believe their emotions are “truth” or “fact”. Solution: Simply stand by and allow her emotions to wash over her. Let her feel them. This too shall pass. Don’t allow her emotions to govern you, even if they rule her. 

_Lack of introspection: Inability to understand why one says what one says or does what one does; and often the subject does not care to understand. Solution: Put no stock in what she says. Observe what she does. She will show you who she is with her deeds. Note that you are not trying to improve her introspection; you are merely trying to minimize its effects on you. 
_
Selfishness: The Entitlement Princess. It’s all about her, all the time. She wants what she wants, and she wants you to give it to her right now, regardless of whether you can afford it or even want it. Solution: Learn how to tell a woman “NO.” Simply deny her what you don’t want to give her. Don’t explain. Don’t apologize. Just tell her “NO.” 

Lack of logic and reason: Failure to apply past experience or sensible principles to a given situation or problem. Lack of future time orientation. Inability to plan and to execute that plan. Solution: You will have to do most of the planning and reasoning; you will have to maintain state control


or maybe thats just me. 

but i see the same thing in my wife. and i pretty much had to shove the facts in her face for her to even halfway realize what she was doing...


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> No it's not ridiculous, if the woman says "yes" it's on, she say's "No" it's not. It's not very hard these days to find out if someone is single or not, hell you can do it right from your phone via a google/facebook/linked in/twitter search.
> 
> If you are going to hop in the sack that quick without at least checking them out it indicates you really don't want to know the truth.....


So the onus is upon a woman to conduct a background check on every potential sexual partner to ensure he's telling the truth about his marital status?

Talk about blameshifting ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

honey, scootch your cute little ass in the kitchen and pour me another scotch....


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## Unhappy2011 (Dec 28, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> I've seen several professors who do these types of studies emphasize that the numbers are self reported. I think the implication is that the rates of adultery are essentially the same, but women are somewhat less likely to admit it.
> 
> I also have a college friend who now works as a therapist and marriage counselor. She has trouble with some women patients who can't see that they've cheated. It's not that they lie, but they literally cannot comprehend that they've betrayed their spouse. She says it's a female thing, just with some women, but always a woman. Men lie and deny to the end (some of them), but these women she refers to do not lie. They truly believe somehow that they didn't cheat.
> 
> ...


Interesting.

That is similiar to that thing some younger girls do where they still consider themselves a virgin even though they've already had sex.

In their mind it just didn't count or something like that.

On another note, I have heard that some women choose the safe provider beta-male type guy to marry but want to be impregnated by the bad boy alpha male.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the cheating women mentioned in this thread?


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## Unhappy2011 (Dec 28, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Oh, I'm sorry for interrupting your two minute hate on women fest here guys.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Your shaming language in an obvious attempt to silence a male discussion of bad behavior by women is futile.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> Private man definitely writes some good stuff. I think I agree with what he's saying here. And I've definitely had the same experience with my wife--look honey this is what you're doing, take a close look now--and then repeat several times before she gets it.


You don't hate women.
You just think they're all selfish (like Mother Teresa), emotionally weak (like Margaret Thatcher), incapable of introspection (like Ayn Rand) and lacking in reason and logic (like Sandra O'Connor).
No doubt your wife tingles when she hears you describe her thusly.

Apparently none of these women have half the smarts, common sense, kindness or strength as some of these awesome cats sitting in front of a computer in their basement blogging about how to be an alpha man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> I'm not sure if you're saying I hate women or that I spend too much time online. I don't think Private Man hates women either, when it comes down to it a lot of what he writes about isn't very different from what is on the Men's section here. Anyway, I don't know what I wrote that's upset you.


I'm not upset. Really.
Just pointing out the irony (and apparent contradiction) of you stating you don't hate women while at the same time agreeing with a diatribe declaring them by nature selfish, weak, stupid and illogical.
Maybe hate is a strong word. Let's just say you believe women are created vastly inferior to our half of the species. Maybe we should declare them 3/5 people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> Well you seem, upset Frank.
> 
> At any rate, I assume the post I agreed with was referencing the idea I talked about earlier, which is that a small percentage of women have trouble accepting the idea of having cheated, even when they acknowledge the facts of that cheating. I was saying, in the post you're excoriating me for, that I've had that problem with my wife, that even when I show her what she did that was problematic, she doesn't always "get" it until I've made it clear in her language. I try an analytical approach, fail with that, and then have to repeat using something she can appreciate and that acknowledges the emotional aspect of it for her (which is what I need her to see anyway).
> 
> Thus my lack of understanding about how you see me as having denigrated Mother Theresa, Maggie Thatcher and Ayn Rand (okay I admit not liking the last one). I'm also confused as to how you see me as advocating the enslavement of women (your 3/5 of person reference). Please toss in one about me being "just like Hitler" to complete the set.


Apparently my satire is lost on some.

Anyhow, you said you agree with an author who said all women, by their very nature, are selfish, stupid, weak and incapable of forethought. 
If you wish to backtrack and say you only meant that about "a small percentage of women" (your wife among them), feel free.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> So the onus is upon a woman to conduct a background check on every potential sexual partner to ensure he's telling the truth about his marital status?
> 
> Talk about blameshifting ...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not just the woman, the man as well. But ultimately only the woman can say yes, hence my statement. I find it strange that people that will spend months researching buying a coffee maker will not bother to check up on someone they plan on sleeping with.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I did not read every response on this thread, so I may be repeating someone else, but my 2 cents - men are asking why women are cheating w/losers....why are men cheating with skanky gold diggers that they know are no good.....maybe the answer to both is because they are easy and knowing they are bad makes it easier to justify bad actions...I don't know...never thought of cheating, and I certainly have cleanliness issues


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

My husband's ex was actively out looking for men while they were together and telling him
It was none of his business where she went or what she did. Then she turned it around and said she was unhappy in marriage because he was stalking her. One might she went out for a girls' night out with a mutual friend. He found out where she was and he and the friend's husband showed up. She was sitting in a booth on the same side as some guy and started yelling at him that he was being unreasonable for following her around. 
She ended up cheating on him then saying she wanted a separation. They moved into different rooms and their sons had to share a bedroom. 
The next day she didn't come home until midnight and told him she had spent the evening screwing another guy. 
She ended up with a white trash guy who has a record, prison tattoos, looks like he's 50 but he's 40, is short and works a blue collar job. 
My h is tall, cute, educated, smart. Has a good job, is a great father. Can cook, fix cars, takes care of himself. 
It's an epidemic but I don't think it has to do with feminism. I think it has to do with people thinking if they're not perfectly happy in
life they get to do whatever they want to change. 
I have no idea what on earth she was thinking other than she didn't feel like she was good enough for him. She is really not smart, couldn't finish college, has white trash values and looks trashy. I don't know but maybe she felt like she needed someone who would relate to her stupid mindset and trashy view of things. 
She told my h one time he wasn't enough man for her. Not sure what that means, I guess being poor and having 6 people living a two bedroom townhouse turns her on? Never seeing her boyfriend bc he has to work third shift to make more money rocks her world? 
These women are just trashy and karma will catch up with them. And then nice women like me can start our lives over with a nice awesome guy because of their stupidity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> You don't hate women.
> You just think they're all selfish (like Mother Teresa), emotionally weak (like Margaret Thatcher), incapable of introspection (like Ayn Rand) and lacking in reason and logic (like Sandra O'Connor).
> No doubt your wife tingles when she hears you describe her thusly.
> 
> ...


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Beowulf said:


>


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


>


Awesome! I like it. :rofl:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> You don't hate women.
> You just think they're all ...
> 
> Apparently none of these women ...


A general statement (e.g., men are taller than women) should not be confused with an all-encompassing statement (e.g., no man is shorter than any woman).


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Broncos Fan said:


> I still don't get why you're so hurt by it.


I doubt Frank is hurt. But, many people insist that women are simply men with breasts. That the only differences between the sexes are physical and can't possibly extend to the brain. I used to believe that, as well. Fortunately, I took the red pill and stopped treating my wife like a man with breasts. And my marriage improved.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> A general statement (e.g., men are taller than women) should not be confused with an all-encompassing statement (e.g., no man is shorter than any woman).


I'm not sure I understand you're point. Are you saying that not all women are dumb, selfish, illogical, etc. .... but in general they are?

As to your latter post, no, I don't believe women are men with breasts. Nor do I believe women are intellectually and emotionally and inferior simpletons who need us men to tell them what they want (cause they're biologically incapable of knowing what's good for them).

Fortunately, I've never treated my wife as a man with breasts. What fun would that be?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


>


I get the point that folks can play the internet tough guy but it seems that some take on a persona of being incredibly wussified.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I get the point that folks can play the internet tough guy but it seems that some take on a persona of being incredibly wussified.


Agreed.
Especially guys who constantly whine about how mistreated they are or have been by the (intellectually, morally and emotionally inferior) women in their lives.
Man up, indeed.

I don't mean to harsh to guys with real marital problems, just those that blame their woes on "women."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Agreed.
> Especially guys who constantly whine about how mistreated they are or have been by the (intellectually, morally and emotionally inferior) women in their lives.
> Man up, indeed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Calm down Frank.

 j/k

I don't disagree with your point here, but to me it is more of a realization that the view of female infidelity has changed in many ways. It has always existed. We can debate whether it is more or less than at other times. Maybe some have just realized it exists.

I suspect there is more infidelity by both sexes for a number of reasons.

I think there is less stigma for a woman than there used to be. There seems to be an entitlement with people period. 

But there has been a change. The sheer independence that women have today as opposed to fifty years ago. That alone allows them to more safely engage in infidelity and to be more open about it. Call it entitlement, a leveling of the field or the pendulum swinging further in one direction versus another. 

It is easier to cheat, more acceptable and has fewer consequences for many.

I suspect men empower women more then ever to cheat. That is a discussion in itself.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

FrustratedFL said:


> Here is very sad but true statistic:
> 
> My 12 yr old daughter had a birthday/sleepover with 5 other 12 yr old girls lasy night.
> 
> ...


My ex h was telling my daughter very proudly of him cheating on his current wife with 3 women when she was 15. I was FURIOUS! What kind of example was this??? I called his wife and asked why in the world is he discussing this with her in detail? They turn it around telling me I'M trying to ruin their marriage. How stupid is that? How the heck would I know details? It's sick. My ex is a serial cheater.

My husband now would never cheat on me, nor I would him. You need a marriage built on trust. I could not even date until after my divorce even though I was emotionally disconnected from my ex for over a year.

Cheating is horrible. It's a deal breaker for me and my husband. Neither of us put ourselves in the position to cheat in the first place. We both stick to our boundaries and put out marriage as our number one priority. We souly focus on each other.


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## TashaB (Dec 30, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Its our society and the general decline in the importance of marriage. More and more women are jumping on the Oprah train and putting their own needs before their husbands and children. It gets worse every year.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



WTF is wrong with men who work long hours as if they dont have a wife at home? 

*I HAVE NEEDS!!!!*


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Actually, you're quite wrong. The divorce rate peaked in the early 80s and has been declining ever since. Overall, the divorce rate today is down by about 5 percent since 1996.
> Look it up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah and less people are getting married


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Calm down Frank.
> 
> j/k
> 
> ...


I have often wondered if this independence has also provided a greater opportunity. That is, women cheat more now not because they are worse people than they used to, but because they are in an environment where they have an oportunity to meet and get to know more men due to being out in the work force. Thus, they have greater opportunity to meet a man with whom they would be tempted to cheat with.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Beowulf said:


> From a 2009 study called The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness
> 
> http://bpp.wharton.upenn.edu/betseys/papers/Female_Happiness.pdf
> 
> ...



Like runs like a dog says, they want roasted ice


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

TashaB said:


> WTF is wrong with men who work long hours as if they dont have a wife at home?
> 
> *I HAVE NEEDS!!!!*



They are working long hours because they are still paying for their wives other needs purchased previously ;~)


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> I'm not sure I understand you're point. Are you saying that not all women are dumb, selfish, illogical, etc. .... but in general they are?


I agree with some of the substance of the post you're objecting to. But I agree that the style is off putting.

The commenter says that women have emotional weakness. That's not a flattering statement. But I would say that women are more emotional than men. I think most people would agree that women are more emotional than men. In some instances that may be favorable, or unfavorable. However, I won't just dismiss the statement because it was phrased negatively.

And I certainly wouldn't argue with the premise that women are more emotional than men by pointing to an emotionless woman as one exception that can disprove the rule.



FrankKissel said:


> As to your latter post, no, I don't believe women are men with breasts. Nor do I believe women are intellectually and emotionally and inferior simpletons who need us men to tell them what they want (cause they're biologically incapable of knowing what's good for them).


So, you can admit that women are more emotional and less logical than men (among other differences)? You just object to characterizing these differences as negative?



FrankKissel said:


> Fortunately, I've never treated my wife as a man with breasts. What fun would that be?


Speaking from experience, I can say not nearly as much fun as recognizing the differences in the sexes and treating your wife accordingly. I'm glad you didn't make the same mistakes I did.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Yeah and less people are getting married


49% of all children in the US born to unmarried couples last year.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> 49% of all children in the US born to unmarried couples last year.


And this is a WAAAAAYYYYY more significant and troubling trend than the rates of divorce and infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I agree with some of the substance of the post you're objecting to. But I agree that the style is off putting.
> 
> The commenter says that women have emotional weakness. That's not a flattering statement. But I would say that women are more emotional than men. I think most people would agree that women are more emotional than men. In some instances that may be favorable, or unfavorable. However, I won't just dismiss the statement because it was phrased negatively.


Had that writer said "women are more emotional than men" and left it like that, I wouldn't take issue. An overgeneralization, sure, but certainly some truth to it.
But that's not what he wrote. He wrote that women - all women, because it's hard-wired in their brain - believe their emotions are fact, let emotions govern everything they do, are incapable of introspection, etc.
That's not the point you are defending.
I'm at least thankful you're not defending some of his other theories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Had that writer said "women are more emotional than men" and left it like that, I wouldn't take issue. An overgeneralization, sure, but certainly some truth to it.


Well, I won't defend the style of the post.



FrankKissel said:


> But that's not what he wrote. He wrote that women - all women, because it's hard-wired in their brain - believe their emotions are fact, let emotions govern everything they do, are incapable of introspection, etc.
> That's not the point you are defending.
> I'm at least thankful you're not defending some of his other theories.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're arguing against a straw man here. If I state that women are hard-wired in their DNA to be shorter and weaker than men, does that mean that I'm arguing that every single woman must be shorter and weaker than all men? Not at all.

I think the substance of the post is informative. And I've used the authors' exact sentiment in my own marriage. As I wrote earlier, I used to treat my wife like a man with breasts. When she said something, I didn't step back and remember that she was a woman who thought, spoke, and acted much differently than I did.

For example, I used to try to help my wife with her problems. She would come to me complaining of a problem. I would listen to her, ask questions to better understand the situation, and then offer my suggestions for how to deal with the problem. This infuriated my wife. She wasn't interested in solving the problem. She wanted to complain about the problem. I wasn't giving her what she needed. I was giving her what a man in her position would need.

So I stopped. Now, when she comes to me with a problem, I halfheartedly listen. I gather just enough information that I could answer a question or two if she accuses me of not listening. I ask no questions. I stay silent until she is finished with her rant. At that point, I say something brilliant like, "Wow!", or, "That sounds rough." And my wife absolutely loves it. I'm putting forth absolutely no effort and she is texting me an hour later thanking me for being such a good listener and really connecting with her. As the commenter wrote, she just wanted to wallow in her emotions for a while. By passively observing her and not engaging in any way, she actually thinks I'm engaged with her. She's happy. I'm happy.

I think my situation is typical of the male/female dynamic. Most men, in my wife's situation, would want others to react the way I used to. And most women would want others to react the way I do now. Different strokes.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Broncos Fan said:


> This raises a lot of interesting issues that relate. I don't have a link, but I saw a discussion on a talk show about female infidelity. This professor type who'd written a book on the subject basically said that the notion that women don't commit infidelity is a "comforting fiction" that both men and women have an interest in enforcing. She argued that when societies become aware that women commit infidelity as often as they do, social unrest almost always follows and both men and women suffer for it.
> 
> I remember from history class learning about Chairman Mao doing a final "big project" in the 1970s in which he ordered the use of the basic genetic research that was usable at the time to trace the ancestral lines of various villages (something very important in China). In the process of doing this, the party officials unintentionally made the villagers aware of how many of the children weren't in fact the biological children of their alleged fathers, resulting in almost instant chaos. Mao quickly ordered that the project be abandoned because the sudden spontaneous upheaval really freaked him out, and this was a guy who not only started the Cultural Revolution but pretty much laughed his way through it.
> 
> ...


Yes, interesting. This makes sense to me.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I have often wondered if this independence has also provided a greater opportunity. That is, women cheat more now not because they are worse people than they used to, but because they are in an environment where they have an oportunity to meet and get to know more men due to being out in the work force. Thus, they have greater opportunity to meet a man with whom they would be tempted to cheat with.


I learned a long time ago in the Navy that putting people in certain situations can give you some very surprising results. Situations test us. It is easy to be "good" if never tested. We are human. Those that understand that have a better chance of avoiding the pitfalls.

Workplace affairs are huge. I am thinking though that SAHMs can become very bored and Facebook, texting, going to the GYM and so on offer temptations of thier own. 

I do think EAs are very widespread. Folks do not even realize what is happening until they are in deep.

I keep hearing the ladies here say that they get hit on all the time. At the grocery store, at church and not just at bars. My point is that it is easier for the average woman to hookup than the average guy if so inclined.

But in general women have less to be concerned about if caught cheating than they used to be. I am not saying that there are no consequences. But compared to say fifty years ago, much has changed.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

TashaB said:


> WTF is wrong with men who work long hours as if they dont have a wife at home?
> 
> *I HAVE NEEDS!!!!*


Many men feel pressurred to provide financially for their families and also be there for their wives. A balance is very hard to find. Many men rightly or wrongly define themselves by what they do for a living.

Many men choose to not do this and are at risk of their wives being more attracted to men with more power and money. Not saying this is true for all.

Sooooo. I suggest that you do His Needs Her Needs with your hubby if you have not already. Trust me, he may not know. He may feel he is doing what a man is supposed to do. He may feel he is a great husband. You have to tell him.

By doing the HNHN you can emphasize your need for him being their with you and show him that his financial support is not important to you.

When I am in a particualarly cynical mood I wonder if some women do not require two men to fullfill their needs. A sugar daddy to support them. That responsible male to take care of her children and that other man ( like in the movie of the same name ) to be her romantic lover.

Out of that cynicism I have decided I want to be 1) My wifes exclusive lover 2) her best male friend and 3) her husband. In that order. These are just three personas to meet the needs of a woman. 

As the song goes, a man wants a lady on the street and a freak in the bed. So it goes both ways. 

It is very possible to meet 80% your SO needs 80% of the time. Maybe even 100% for short periods. But sometimes we can only focus on certain needs because those needs take all of our focus to meet.

That means even good marriages can be vulnerable to affairs due to not meeting needs. A predator only has to meet that 5% need for a short time. Meeting each others needs can help make a marriage more resistent to these temptations. Yes having good character is key of course. It is just not a garantee. So that is why HNHN while stressing the meeting of needs also stresses boundaries.

While it seems I am minimizing your situation, I really am not. I suspect your husband loves you very much and for one reason or another is doing what he thinks is best. You need to hit him with the proverbial 2 x 4 and get his attention.


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