# Looking for an un-biased outside opinion on wife's p(proba|ossi)ble EA



## nullrollz

I'm finding myself in a pretty deep confusion. I want to believe the words my wife says, and some/most of them I do, but things I've read, close friends I've talked to, my mom's advice, and my gut feeling (which has never lead me wrong before) tells me otherwise.

I'm a long-winded person with things like this. This is going to be long. Random internet person, I'd appreciate if you read the entire thing and think on it, instead of just the TL;DR.

TL;DR: I feel my wife has had two emotionl affairs, and is currently still in the second after I told her she needed to end their friendship and keep it work-related ONLY, and after she called him, in front of me, and told me so. My closets buddies and mother all agree she is having at the very least an extremely inappropriate relationship (one buddy), or a full-blown emotional affair (other buddy); one of these people I confided in thinks she's already slept with the other guy. I don't know if I'd be surprised at this point if that were true. The other day, after she told me she wanted to take a break to find herself ("not date other people") and then come back to us, I told her I wanted her to leave, to get out. She called an attorney for advice. She spent the day feeling super upset, depressed, tried super hard to change her story, but still hasn't ended the emotional affair. I slept on the couch that night, she continued texting him after I left the bedroom. My wife does not consider her actions to be emotional affairs.

As a side-note: we have our first counseling session set up for this coming week. I've also told her I was planning to post "on an internet forum I read every now and then", and urged her to also do the same so people could view both sides of the story. She said she'd do it "for me." I don't know if she'll actually do it. I'm really just looking for an outside/un-biased opinion; somebody who, knowing they're only receiving my side of the story, and doesn't know me personally, can give me an opinion on if the way I'm feeling is warranted. I'm ready for us to either work on the marriage, or to get a divorce, which is why I don't really care if she reads this. It's nothing I haven't said before.

A little backstory...

I'm 29/M, work as a software engineer for a international company, wife is 25, works as a blackjack dealer and a side business. Married 5 years, together 7. Yes, we married young. Try telling a young person that it's a mistake to marry young/too early. Two kids; my son is almost 4, daughter is 15 months. We're both great parents together and separately, and multiple people have told us both this on multiple occasions. Overall, great, well behaved kids and great overall family structure.

In the beginning we were great together. Sex was frequent and intimate, and she was into it as much as I was. We were adventurous and things were never dull in the bedroom. As with most marriages that I read about, the wife and I lost a fair amount of what made us great when the kids came along, and have been struggling this last year to get it back. We both began to focus more on the kids than each other. We are both aware that we're both at fault.

When my son was 1.5-2, my wife had what I consider to be an EA. She was hiding a friendship/relationship with her ex (first love, took her viginity, etc.). He was an emotionally abusive POS who pursued her well into our third year of marriage, and I had voiced my opinions/feelings/wishes on how she handle him many times (stop talking to him).

She was messaging him via text message, facebook multiple times per day, several hundred messages over the course of a month or two. She even went so far as to use her 'secondary'/business phone, which she almost never used (I was even under the assumption that this phone had been lost in the house somewhere). I only saw a couple messages, but one that set me off the most was how she would miss him if he left/moved away (even though she'd told me hundreds of times up to that point that she hated him, all of a sudden she was 'over it' and and forgiven him, he'd changed, etc.).

Long story short, after lurking/reading on these forums for a week or two, confiding in my mom and two closest male friends, I decided to confront her. Note that up until this point I hadn't mentioned anything, and didn't let on that I was aware of it and was monitoring her text logs (and sneaking peaks at her phone as I could) and FB messages. I wasn't proud of it, but after seeing what was going on I felt it was warranted.

She admitted it. Cue the water-works, but I held frame and didn't let them affect me during the confrontation. She said she was suffering from depression and low self-esteem (she had gained weight during the pregnancy with my son, and hadn't lost it, which didn't bother me). My son and I bonded very closely while he was an infant/baby/toddler, but her and him did not bond, and she said this also had a huge effect on the way she felt. My son never wanted her until he was 1-1.5 years old, I was the only one that could calm him down/soothe him. (Even now my son is a lot like me/the way I was at his age; he even chose the same Ninja Turtle as his favorite as I did as a little boy). She said that she was happy to have the attention of somebody else, somebody who wanted her. I told her that felt like she was seeking attention from other men, and was well beyond what a wife should ever do, while at the same time turning away what attention I was giving her (which wasn't as much as I should have, I admit).

She said that I had been unavailable, which has some truth to it. I hate to make excuses, especially when I didn't recognize them myself until after, but the stresses of a move/job loss/unable to find work/having to live off my parents donations took a huge toll on me. I told her that I felt she was taking her anger at her self-esteem/our son's affection out on me, and instead of expending the energy on us/our marriage, she instead chose to expend the energy on another man and hiding that friendship (which she admitted she did because it would "make me mad" (no ****)). I told her she had destroyed my trust and threw it out the window, and she agreed. During the 1-2 months that she was engaging in this behavior, I was bottling it all up inside and it took a lot of energy to stop from becoming externally angry at the smallest slight, nag, etc. from her.

I told her she could either, right then and there, send him a no contact text message, with me watching, or she could pack her bags and leave. I should have made her call him so I could hear her voice when she said it; alas, hindsight is 20/20. She sent the message, and I went into trust but verify mode, and to my knowledge they haven't spoken at all since then. At this point I've forgiven her for this, but I have not forgotten it, and sometimes I still think of it, or bring it up during fights.

Fast forward a couple years...

My daughter was born and my wife was able to breast feed (my son wouldn't latch), so she began to lose weight. My daughter and her bonded (my daughter and I also bonded), her and I were in a better place (still not great), and things were better for about a year. My daughter eventually became more independent, and in my opinion started showing a preference towards me, like my son had. This hit my wife pretty hard. However, she had started losing weight and changing her appearance (red flag); she looked great, changed her hair color (I had always wanted her to try blonde, and it works well on her), and other men began to notice. My wife doesn't believe me when I say this, but I really don't get mad/jealous when some RANDOM guy tells her she's pretty or tries to pick her up. I may try to ask a question or two about the guy, but other than that I've usually forgotten about it within 30 minutes. However, when a man who considers himself her friend (and who she considers a friend) hits on her, speaks to her inappropriately, etc., I view that as crossing the line.

She works in a casino as a blackjack dealer. She met another guy there, and began talking to him over lunches/breaks. She told me about him while we were out for a walk with the kids. I was informed that he was a nice, funny guy, but also very inappropriate. She said he would often talk ("joke") about sexual things (supposedly he does it with all the women there?), and would often compliment her and tell her she was attractive. I was told she would respond with a thank you, or ignore it, or say something like "Yup, my husband is really lucky." At this point I believed her, so the next time she mentioned his name I had to ask "Who?"

Around this time I had already began to notice a huge increase in her self-esteem. Unfortunately, I didn't feel it was a result of my own efforts to tell her daily she was beautiful, to daily make sure we had a long hug and kiss, etc. She was posting selfies to facebook. She was using snapchat. These are all red flags. She had stopped talking about this guy at work almost completely. Red flag. She would become upset if I asked about whether he was still being inappropriate, etc. Red flag. She was becoming a little more adventurous in the bedroom, or coming home horny. Red flag.

One of my two closest male friends and his wife even noticed the increase in selfies and they both thought it was odd (he and I had not spoken of the issues yet). He mentioned this to me AFTER I sought some advice from him about her actions.

I then found out they were communicating via Facebook (information she told me). Another red flag. A red flag that their relationship/friendship had moved away from a work acquaintance/man who talks inappropriately to my wife (something I'd told her was not right of him to do) into a personal friendship. A fter a couple days/weeks of her not telling me much of anything, I broke down and began monitoring her FB/texts again. The things I saw were not nearly as innocent as she said. Granted, at this point it was only him doing the inappropriate thing, but I could tell she really enjoyed the attention, and never asked him to flat out stop (only to tone it down because it would "make my husband mad"). He was saying things to her like "I think you're sexy as hell", "I Just want you to be happy", "I really enjoy talking to you" (she also said this to him at some point). At one point she was explaining that her and her female friend were "boobie popping" (while dancing or something; they weren't at a bar, just out together at a haunted house type place) and he asked for pics.

She's told me many times they're "just friends." That "she knows his personality" and that "he told me he would NEVER pursue a married woman." I feel that, as a man, and a man who's experienced this before in a prior relationship, that I know better. I'm also of the opinion that no man should ever talk to a married woman like this, and any 'man' who does isn't deserving of the title. I know I would never do that, and I know my closest male friends wouldn't either. My mother agrees with that as well.

At some point while I was information gathering, I had left her FB page open on my computer accidentally and a message from him came on, so it immediately went marked as read. She commented to him that "husband must be watching" (because it didn't tell her she had a message). He asked why and she explained that "I ****ed up a few years ago and so he monitors me from time to time", and she explained a little bit of the story. The other guy responded by saying it was just talk, that I over-reacted, etc. Red flag. Anyways, when I saw the message from her that was about me monitoring, I texted her with something like "Yes, I am watching, and no, I'm not okay with this." A few texts were exchanged between her and I and then she messaged him on facebook:

"Yup, just got in trouble.

We need to keep our friendship appropriate on here."

***ON HERE***

I texted her: "ON HERE?!?!?!? What the **** does that mean?!"

I flew off the handle, called her, started yelling, etc. I was extremely upset about all of it, particularly the "on here" thing. I regret my reaction, and should have sat on it to collect my thoughts before talking to her about it. She said she doesn't know why she said that. She said it was an accident. I think she's lying.

My wife was also starting to gaslight me really hard, calling me controlling, insecure, etc. when I'd tell her I was uncomfortable with the way they talk, the things they talk about. I'd try to explain my feelings (something she said she wanted), and still I was being controlling, insecure, and my trust issues were smothering her. "You're the reason I have trust issues. We've discussed this, you agreed you ****ed up. I told you it was going to take a long time to recover my trust for you." Apparently I should just magically trust her.

I continued to monitor. Their friendship remained mostly the same. She sometimes would send him photos of things she thought was funny, food, etc.

I noticed one day she updated her status with a "Hey, I'm bored! Somebody text me! [phone number here]"... A couple days later, she started messaging him saying things like "hey, you should text me! [number here]"... She tried about 4-5 times to get him to text her instead of using Facebook. In my opinion, this was an attempt to a) take the friendship underground (hide it from me), and b) seek more attention from this guy. I wasn't able to look through her text messages without her knowing, since I rarely/never have access to her phone long enough to look through it; with work schedules/kids we barely saw each other at this point, she was working afternoons/evenings/nights and I worked a regular 9-5.

He didn't do so immediately. Her and I continued to fight about him while I monitored; she continued to gaslight me. She kept talking to her mom about it and telling her mom "her" side of the story, so of course it was completely innocent and her mom agreed with her, that I was over-reacting. She kept mentioning counseling, finding herself, potential breaks.

Around this time she decided she wanted a night out, and she was going to go out with her sister. No problems, gives me some time to spend with the kids, then sit down and play some PC games. She said they weren't sure what they were gonna do, and would text me. I kept monitoring FB. She mentioned to him that they may come to an event he was going to be at. No mention of that to me. The two of them discussed that, then later she messaged me "We decided to go here. [guy's name] will be there." I responded "Hmm.", we exchanged a few texts that basically came down to me saying I was done fighting about him, and then I went dark for the night. We fought that night when she got home, kissed and made up with me once again backing down, because apparently I had misplaced my balls.

She messaged him "yup, got in trouble again. He thinks I'm cheating." (I had never said that on the phone, but okay) He again comments that I'm over-reacting, she should just ignore it, etc.

Days/weeks pass. She beings to compliment him, share intimate details about her past, our marital life, etc. She says things like "I like talking to you ", "you're sweet, I think it comes natural for you", etc. He says things like "I don't want to see you hurt". There is subtle flirting from her, sexually charged in my opinion... e.g.: in response to him having to get up early, she says "I'm up every few hours  it sucks when I'm having good dreams", he says "Like?" and she responds "Wouldn't you like to know! "

We had a conversation at one point, more about us than him, and it was like a fog lifted from me. I realized that her attention seeking was likely a result of us not being as close. I began to make an effort to take her out more, of my own accord, and we ended up having fun, which she said she really enjoyed. However, I felt that I had this stigma over my head, that was their "friendship."

One day, she was talking about him to me via text about something, and I said "For the record, I don't think his intentions are honorable" and we got into a little bit, nothing major. She said "Check my fb messages if you don't believe me", but I decided I was going to trust her and told her that I wasn't going to. And I didn't... for about 6 hours. It got the best of me and I broke down and checked.

She again complained to him about me/my insecurities/trust issues. They talked about it a little bit. "here's what you do... text me here [his number], and delete your fb messages" ... so now this guy is telling her to hide their friendship from me. She would later claim that it was innocent and that he was tired of me reading their messages/causing her pain. That was their last FB message. And so their relationship moved to texting, and I no longer had a way to see what was being said, only that they were texting quite frequently (via Verizon's logs). There were quite a few texts. Up to this point, no picture messages. I was pretty pissed, but kept it mostly to myself. I didn't want them to take it further underground.

Eventually not knowing got the best of me, and I began asking her about it, telling her I wanted her to be up-front with me, not lie to me, etc. She maintained that they mostly talked about work, things that happened at work, random things they saw/random topics, etc. She said he "almost never" hit on her anymore, and said their friendship had moved into an "appropriate"/platonic friendship, nothing more. Again with the "just friends." I told her I'm going to trust her, just be up-front with me. During this dispute, she again was gaslighting me the whole time; "you're controlling", "I/my mom/my friends think you're being controlling/insecure/untrusting", "it hurts me that you don't trust me." I again begin to doubt my stance, begin to think "well maybe she's telling the truth, maybe I'm over-reacting and I'm the problem."

I tried dealing with it, checking the verizon logs a couple times a day. Their texting continued, frequency increasing. At this point (right now, as I write this), the number of texts between them is close to the same as between her and I. She was texting him late at night, early in the morning, whereas most mornings if I didn't initiate with a "good morning" or something text, I wouldn't get anything until several hours afterwards.

Then, one day, I saw she had sent him some picture messages. What's worse, is that she had sent him a picture message (I wasn't aware of the context), followed by a string of messages between the two of them, within 20-30 minutes of a photo she sent me of a new sex toy that she had received in the mail (she used to sell pure romance, and some of her old business friends sometimes will send her new items for free). I immediately assumed that yes, indeed, she had sent him the same photo. I was a wreck for a couple days.

One morning, after speaking with my buddy and telling him what I thought that photo was and him agreeing I should likely just ask to see her phone, I did so. I t was about 5:30/6am. I wasn't even able to shower that morning, and I woke her up and said "I'm feeling a little insecure. What would you say if I wanted to see your text messages with him?" She immediately became defensive, "why do you need to do that?" "I thought we were past this" "I'm hurt that you don't trust me, I told myself last time was the last time" "I can't live like this" ... I told her I needed to see them to settle my mind/curiosity. Eventually she said "Fine, but you're not going to like it."

She went to grab her phone (plugged in by the bed), but before she handed it to me she said "How would you feel if you knew I sent him a picture of that new sex toy?" (not a direct quote, I was pretty shaken up at this point and don't recall exact wording)... I responded: "I would be extremely hurt. Did you?", she responded yes. At this point the phone was in my hands but I didn't want to look at them anymore. I threw the phone onto the bed in disbelief. She went on again about me not trusting her. Eventually I picked up the phone again and started looking at the most recent messages. Some harmless, some of him hitting on her/talking in appropriately (so much for him not doing that anymore). I asked her to show me where the texts with the photo of the sex toy were. She scrolled to them, handed the phone back.

It hit me pretty hard. It started out something like, from her to him:

"Ooooh, I got a fun new toy in the mail!"
"nice, what kind of fun toy?"
[picture message to him of the sex toy]

The rest is foggy unfortunately (I wish I had taken a screenshot); they began talking about her trying it out, and she was playing along with it. She was saying how she couldn't use it due to the kids, he said "well go to x place and do it" (some semi-public place, he made no mention of him being present while she used it). It went back and forth a little bit; again, nothing explicitly graphic, mostly just a little sexually-charged banter and talk of masturbation.

I flew off the ****ing handle. I stood up, began shaking. I could barely contain myself from throwing her out then and there.

I then scrolled all the way to the top. Some messages had been deleted, but it was something I was aware of (I don't know if it was done on purpose to hide something), but she said she had to do a system reset due to some broken apps and a broken system upgrade (she told me this the week/two weeks before while she was doing it). I read through the rest of the messages. It looked like they were all there. I would estimate with a foggy memory that it was abuot 50-60% harmless, and the rest was not (e.g. flirting, him being extremely in appropriate, her going to him to talk about our marital problems).

We talked a bit more, she brought up the idea of calling her mom and having her mom basically talk some sense into me. I said yes, do that. I talked to her mom, told her my feelings/thoughts, the things I had seen in their facebook messages. Her mom was very surprised by the things I had to say; I told her about how many messages, the content of those messages, how I didn't think a married woman should be acting this way and how a man shouldn't be pursuing a married woman in this way, and I also told her about the sex toy photo and talk of masturbation. She said "I didn't know any of that. She told me it was just an innocent friendship. That is completely not okay, I am not okay with that."

I handed the phone back, her mom proceeds to tell her that what she's done is not right. Wife breaks down in tears, now admits she's crossed a line, but ONLY admits to the one instance (the photo / masturbation talk) being a "joke that crossed the line." I ask to talk to her mom again, and tell her mom while looking my wife right in the eye: "If I choose to forgive her for this, I will accept nothing less than her never speaking to him again."

I took the next day off work, fortunately my boss is extremely understanding and an all-around super nice guy; wife is very loving, vero apologetic, very willing to listen to my feelings without gaslighting (but she does make excuses, blameshifts). She mentioned ending their friendship of her own accord, for me/us, and I said yes. She wanted to text him and tell him they were not going to be friends anymore. Initially I was okay with that, but after talking to my mom I decided I wanted her to call him and do it, so I could watch her body actions / listen to her voice as she did it. She resisted, but agreed. What she said to him was:

"Hey, I crossed the line yesterday. I'm going to focus on my marriage, and trying to fix it. We can't be friends anymore."

He said a few things, she said yes/sure. As a note, I had agreed before-hand that I was willing to allow work-related talk (edit: to clarify, by this I mean necessary work talk, e.g. switching shifts, xyz needs to talk to you, new rules/info each other should be aware of; no friendly banter about customers/other employees/etc. She was aware that what I wanted was her to NOT talk to him at all) if and only if she told me about all of it. They had a short discussion about switching a shift, and the call was done. She said that he was supportive of her, and told her to make sure it wasn't her doing all the work to fix things. I should have made her do it on speaker phone. The Verizon call logs (and I saw her press the contact) verified that she called his number at this time.

Side-story... right before she made this call, she resisted/hesitated again, kept telling me "I'm afraid things won't change between us", "I'm skeptical it'll just get bad again". She admitted to me something that still bothers me now, and it was about her female friend. She told me that this female friend was actually bi-sexual, so now I'm concerned about all the times this friend would grab her boobs/ass (before I was assuming it was harmless female fun, as I'd seen other straight women do the same thing to their girlfriends). She told me that this woman, who is married with children, had actually cheated on her husband (didn't mention how many times), and didn't tell him. She also informed me that this friend of hers told my wife to "go for it", in regards to this guy. This friend actually told my wife to cheat on me. Now she started going on about how I'm so controlling, about how she "can't have any friends" for fear of pissing me off, about how "I've always made better friends with guys than girls" (well no ****). I don't feel I can tell her not to see this female friend of hers without destroying my credibility when I say "I'm okay with random guys hitting on you; I'm okay with platonic appropriate friendships with other men; I'm not okay with you and this one guy."

Second side-story... I had a total foot-in-mouth moment, which I immediately took back and apologized for, during a fight. She mentioned that she wasn't running around sleeping with every guy who hit on her like I seemed to assume (her words), and I said "well that's what you did before we met, isn't it?" I had actually just a few days before this found out that the sexual partner count she told me when we started dating was not accurate. Apparently she "forgot" (to my knowledge, women generally don't forget that kind of ****; she was likely reducing her number to seem like a better person in the beginning of the relationship). Regardless, it was something I shouldn't have said, but she's clung to it for the past couple weeks and brings it up every time we fight.

Back to the main story... For the most part, she followed the boundary I had set. She was talking more to me, and was up-front with me right away when she would talk to him. Apparently the very next day he actually hadn't gotten the memo, because he tried to talk to her again, tried to do the same-ol same-ol. I'm guessing he said what he said to put up a front for her so that I'd back off. She says she's been ignoring him unless critical work-related things needed to be said. She says they haven't spoken. She says he's stopped hitting on her. I've continued to monitor the Verizon logs, but without saying anything.

A week or two passed, we hadn't really argued about it because I was of the assumption she was being truthful. At this time, I had been trying to act the way I had when we first met, which is what she said she wanted. She wanted me to be more flirty with her, to be more affectionate, So I began complimenting her a lot, hitting on her pretty blatantly, random hugs/kisseds again, etc. She seemed to enjoy it. At the same time, I'd suffer from what I'd call triggers and would immediately go into a sour mood. I knew she was wanting me to come to her, but I was intent to sit there and let her come to me, to prove things to me. Our sex life was shaky, and there was a lot of me waiting for her to come to me and prove to me she wanted to be with me.

At one point, she opened up a new checking account at a different bank than where we have our joint account. This was pretty much the "hey, this marriage is over" flag for me. She still maintains it was innocent... she wanted a more national bank with more available locations for deposit for her side-business. Oh, let's not forget the other red flag: she changed her direct deposit to this new account.

A couple days after that, I asked her "So what would you think if I opened up my own checking account?" I gave reasons that she did the same, so it should be okay, and it would allow me to better track where the money from my job was going, as I could just transfer to our joint account where we pay bills out of, but leave the rest in my account for groceries, gas, etc. We also have separate savings.

She was thrown off by this (could see it in her eyes/face), but said she was fine with it. She then went out to a meeting (she's a member of a local club for veterans, as her family has always been part of it). She met with her aunt and grandmother there. She told them about the bank account I was opening, probably told them about all of my trust issues and insecurities and how it's smothering her. They likely agreed with her.

She came home late that night, said I'd been acting weird and asked me the real reason behind the bank account. I repeated the same reasons from earlier. She told me she'd discussed it with others, and they said it's a huge red flag that I'm getting ready to leave. She admits she went to this other guy for advice (yeah, let's approach a guy who's obviously sexually interested in you for advice on our marriage; sounds like a terrible ****ing idea to me.) This was when she told me she needed a break from us. I'd always told her that I felt breaks were bull**** and were just a way to ease the guilt of the person doing the breaking up. I fought it for a while, we talked about the other guy, she maintains the reason for her wanting the break is NOT to go off with him or any other guy. I asked her if she's cheated on me, she says no. I didn't see an tells of a lie. She says she feels smothered again, can't live like this, etc. Eventually I agreed to go sleep downstairs, and that we would basically cohabitate. She said she wanted to date me again, she said we'd go out on dates. I eventually felt my rage rising, so just said let's talk about logistics and I'll go sleep downstairs, we can try it, but told her I'd be in pain the entire time, with thoughts running through my head. Blah blah blah.

I go downstairs and immediately text my buddy; he's very surprised, very supportive, and agrees she's likely trying to split up/divorce. He agrees that her actions with this other guy are at the very least EXTREMELY in appropriate, and that he would also be very pissed about it / not able to live with it. We both agree it's just my side of the story he's hearing, and I try my best to portray accruately/logically, but I don't feel that's possible in this situation.

I check verizon logs. Yup, she's been texting him for a couple hours before confronting me, and additionally texting him AFTER I left the bedroom. "What the **** is wrong with this woman?"

I call my mom; she had had a few drinks, but immediately called BULL**** on that. She told me I needed to kick her out. She told me that since it was my wife's choice to "take a break" (end the marriage), that my wife needed to leave. She agrees with me that she's in an emotional affair, and validates my feelings. I mention calling my wife's parents, my mom agrees. I do it.

Wife's dad was surprised; wife hadn't told him a lot (I say "of course not, that would make her look bad."). He says something to the effect of "if that's what's happening, I agree that she shouldn't be doing it." He says he doesn't think she's slept with him, but mentions "then again, who am I to say?" He's a deeply religious man, and I'm not, so he told me to pray on it, and that he'd pray for me. He said he thought I was a great father and son-in-law, and I thanked him and we said goodnight.

I spoke to her mom, and when I said "[wife] says she wants a break." her mom was very surprised and something like "I have no idea what's going through her head. I'm going to call her and kick her ass."

I spoke to my mom again, and then my buddy, and decided I would tell my wife to leave our marital home in the morning, after I'd slept on it some. Another buddy who was asleep and didn't wake up when I messaged later messaged me in the morning in agreement, that I should tell her to leave.

So, I did. I went up stairs, had a shower, got dressed to get ready for work, and said "[wife], we need to talk."

She woke up, groggy, said "okay" with a tone of "oh ****, here he goes again sarcasm."

I said "I talked to a few people last night, as you probably know. You said you wanted a break, and I'm not okay with that. I'm not going to do it. Since you're the one that wants this break, I want you to leave. I want you out." and left the room, went downstairs to cool off.

My daughter woke up a few minutes later, I went upstairs to get her but wife was already holding her (looked like she was using my daughter as a shoulder to cry on? unsure). I said "We can talk about this in five minutes", offered to take my daughter (wife declined) and went back downstairs. I went back up after 5 mins, she wasn't ready (had a very hateful look in her eye), I took my daughter downstairs and fixed her breakfast.

My son woke up, I fixed him breakfast. Wife eventually came downstairs and stared at the wall for a minute. More gaslighting, more blameshifting. Told me she'd called an attorney, who said "you have three options... cohabitate and see if you can get the spark back or "nest" (one parent in the house with the kids, other elsewhere, swap frequently), so you can try to date him again; otherwise, divorce." When she said that last option I looked her straight in the eye and nodded, maybe a little too enthusiastically. I'd like to note here, I don't want a divorce. I don't want to lose my wife, or break up my family. But nor will I stand any longer for this attention seeking / emotional affair behavior, the disrespect, the gaslighting/blameshifting, the selfishness.

We wrote up a short contract agreeing that neither of us would try to take/withhold either child from either parent. We signed, dated, copied, filed the original away. This gave me some small peace of mind. This was yesterday. I took the day off work; again my boss understood and told me not to stress about work.

I was emotionally distant, mostly dark, to her the rest of the day. She texted me later saying she was "pouring her heart out to me and I can't bother responding." I responded later "You destroyed what was left of me last night. What do you expect." She texted later saying she was having a very bad day... that she was feeling completely worthless, and like she had ****ed everything up. She's still texting the other guy, all day, when she knows he is literally the only reason I'm pulling away. She knows I believe the break is her attempt to relieve her guilt while she distances herself from me (and she knows I believe it's an attempt to ease her guilt while getting closer with him).

She came home that night, went upstairs and immediately put on a sexy nighty. Came downstairs and cuddle up to me on the couch. I was still very upset, very angry, so didn't cuddle back. She picked up on my mood. I said "I appreciate the effort, but I'm way too hurt for that right now."

Again we get into a discussion. Again, more gaslighting, more blameshifting, more "it's completely innocent." She has the gall to ask me if I've ever cheated on her. (I haven't; I only talk to one other female, and I've known her for 20 years, only met her once and my wife (then girlfriend) was there (me and this girl met online when I was a kid), and we only talk once or twice every couple years; the last time we spoke until just recently was 2008). I look her straight in the eye and say "No. Never." She says "I haven't either. With [guy's name] or anybody. I haven't been with anybody but you since we got together."

She kept starting to cry; that and the gaslighting/blameshifting again put me in a defensive stance. I kept doubting myself and my position. I kept asking myself "wait, why don't I trust her? Am I that insecure?" I believe the gaslighting was having an effect on me. But that's why I'm here. I want to know if YOU think she's gaslighting me; if YOU think she's having an emotional affair.

We talked some more, nothing that I haven't mentioned before, nothing extremely interesting. She says "I'll let you finish your movie. You're welcome to join me in bed." 20 minutes later, I get a text from her asking if I'm coming. Part of me doesn't want to. Part of me does. I talk to my buddy some more. I decide to go upstairs... two hours later (I did finish my movie... Hercules with The Rock.... decent flick, nothing to write home about). I laid in bed not touching her for 30 minutes. Eventually, I placed my hand on her for a little while. She snuck a little closer. After a while, I rolled over and went to sleep.

Next thing I knew, she was cuddling up to me the next morning, and in my sleep-state I was cuddling back. At first it's face to face cuddling. Then she rolls around so that I'm spooning her. It was nice, but I couldn't help but think that it was either fake or had some type of ulterior motive. I eventually rolled over and fell back asleep. I hadn't been sleeping well that past week, especially the past two nights, so it wasn't difficult. I ended up later that morning taking a 3+ hour nap as well. Didn't actually get up for the day until 1pm, which is a first for me in at least 10 years.

I'm still finding myself incredibly hurt, incredibly cold towards her. But I have also found myself joking, laughing with her. She's still messaging back and forth with him all day.

We have a counseling session set up this coming week, our first. I'm torn at this point; I did contact an attorney. I'm tempted to go to the courthouse right now and try to file for an uncontested divorce, with joint custody, no financial support either way, etc. and see if she'll agree to it. I know that I won't be able to attempt to fix our marriage until I'm convinced she's no longer talking to this other guy. But there's a large part of me that is wounded because she broke my no-contact rule, and continues to do so, especially without regards to my feelings. When I say it hurts me, she tells me to stop being so controlling/insecure.

So, here I am, writing this. I want opinions. I want un-biased, no beating-around-the-bush opinions. I want to know if I'm validated in feeling the way I do and if I'm possibly being manipulated, or if I'm over-reacting/being insecure. My friends and mom/dad agree with me, but they are both biased parties, and while I value their opinions greatly, I also at this point want some un-biased advice.

Thank you for taking the time to read this gigantic wall of text, and for any advice/opinions you can offer.


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## thatbpguy

I read the first few paragraphs and skimmed some of the rest.

No doubt she is betraying you. But I don't see it as a case of not getting it, but one of a true addiction to betraying. To be very frank, I doubt it will ever change. Has it turned physical? Maybe. But not only does it not matter as she has fully separated from you, but it is only a matter of time before that bridge is crossed. 

I just don't reasonably see any way out. At all.

But if you feel like slogging on, I'd get some VAR's or place a VAR app on your tablet and leave it around... other snooping methods... until you get what you need.


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## Mr.Fisty

You won't be able to work on the relationship until she is out of the affair.

Mentally, she won't be there, and the high she is feeling will block all progress.

Exposing it, and handing her the divorce papers will either snap her out of it, or she will leave, saving you time.

This is where indecision hinders someone.

The more time she expends time and energy towards him, the stronger the bond becomes and becomes harder to break.

If you tell her divorce or me, you have better have the divorce papers ready.

Most fail to follow through, and go through false reconciliation.

Start detaching yourself, and really have a critical look at the relationship.

She has a history of coping by cheating on you.

Some do it make it past an affairs, but rarely.

If she wants to stay with you, make sure she seeks counseling.

Not every woman will resort to an affair to cope.

Also work on your issues, a healthy relationship between parents is better for children.

If you can;t past resentment, then I suggest divorce, and have the kids watch what two contented people look like.


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## MattMatt

Your post is long, yet it can be distilled to this:

Q) Is my wife cheating?
A) Yes.

Sorry.


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## nullrollz

MattMatt said:


> Your post is long, yet it can be distilled to this:
> 
> Q) Is my wife cheating?
> A) Yes.
> 
> Sorry.


I agree there's EA for sure. She says no PA. I am unsure.

Yes, the post is long. To be honest, I found it pretty therapeutic to get my thoughts out/more organized.



Mr.Fisty said:


> Exposing it, and handing her the divorce papers will either snap her out of it, or she will leave, saving you time.


I did print off my states divorce papers. I began filling them out, but stopped. I haven't threatened divorce yet. The only thing I've done is expose it to her parents, my parents, my buddies, and told her I wanted her to leave. At this point my plan is to go to a counseling session or two and just see where it goes. If she can't be convinced to end this relationship, I will finish filling them out and hand them to her. Big talk, I know, but I am ready to walk.


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## IIJokerII

nullrollz said:


> I agree there's EA for sure. She says no PA. I am unsure.
> 
> Yes, the post is long. To be honest, I found it pretty therapeutic to get my thoughts out/more organized.
> 
> 
> 
> I did print off my states divorce papers. I began filling them out, but stopped. I haven't threatened divorce yet. The only thing I've done is expose it to her parents, my parents, my buddies, and told her I wanted her to leave. At this point my plan is to go to a counseling session or two and just see where it goes. If she can't be convinced to end this relationship, I will finish filling them out and hand them to her. Big talk, I know, but I am ready to walk.


 I hope you mean it because for every day you stall the affair gets deeper and you are more at risk for collateral damage. Don't be like most people, including me, and wait till you can't avoid it no more or end up going on the defensive since she is the one who filed first. A good defense is a good offense. 

With exposure will come at least impartial bias towards your current status. By filing for divorce no one can run to her defense saying how wronged she was by you and if they don't remain neutral they will condone your actions as a reaction to her affair. 

Don't wait, do it asap.


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## mablenc

You are wasting your money on counseling because she is still cheating. She wants to go to give you the impression that she wants to work on your marriage, so you can get off her back.

She also manipulates you very well to the point you get confused.

You need to be strong.


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## NoChoice

OP,
I read the entire wall and it seems you tried to be as informative as possible but still it is your side. However, based on your post there is at least an EA. I don't know the probability that it has gone physical but it is definitely an EA.

You didn't really ask for advice on how to proceed and I really wouldn't know what to tell you. Your wife is immature, inconsiderate and somewhat manipulating from your post info. She and this OM are seemingly inseparable. Even though he knows that it his seriously hurting her marriage, he persists and she thinks he is a friend?

I see no other option at this time since you put your foot down and he and she are still communicating. D is your last weapon in the arsenal. I wish you luck.


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## nullrollz

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I read the entire wall and it seems you tried to be as informative as possible but still it is your side. However, based on your post there is at least an EA. I don't know the probability that it has gone physical but it is definitely an EA.
> 
> You didn't really ask for advice on how to proceed and I really wouldn't know what to tell you. Your wife is immature, inconsiderate and somewhat manipulating from your post info. She and this OM are seemingly inseparable. Even though he knows that it his seriously hurting her marriage, he persists and she thinks he is a friend?
> 
> I see no other option at this time since you put your foot down and he and she are still communicating. D is your last weapon in the arsenal. I wish you luck.


I thank you for reading it all. I did try to present it as best/logically as I could.

I think you make a very good point when you say



> She and this OM are seemingly inseparable. Even though he knows that it his seriously hurting her marriage, he persists and she thinks he is a friend?


Nobody who is a true friend would do that.


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## bryanp

I will make it simple for you.

1. If the roles were reversed would she put up with such disrespect from you?
2. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change.
3. If you do not respect yourself then who will?
4. Judge a person by their actions and not by their words and her actions speak volumes about how she feels toward you and your marriage.


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## 2xloser

I read your entire post.

Yes, she's in an EA. Pretty deeply. She actually knows it, now. She didn't before this all blew up, but now she finds herself texting him as this all goes down, even though she kniws she probably shouldn't. And it would be my belief that she actually can't believe she can't stop. VERY much like a drug addict. 

And imho, that is how you *could* choose to treat it.
If she were found to have a bad drug habit hidden, instead of her EA, what would you do? Probably (a) get her off the drugs, immediately, and (b) Ultimatum: Stop cold turkey, now, or I walk.
An easy parallel to draw...

What I haven't heard in your discussions with her is 3 things: 

1- you making it clear to her, she has to choose -- him, or you. If that makes you controlling or overbearing in her mind, then whe's chosen and you can live with that, snd so be it. Her choice. Make it, to you, and then back it up.

2- full access. She had this texting relationship (at least), which you've openly out in the table as fatal to your marriage, but you can't see the texts? Uh uh.

3- MC, deep and intense and immediate. You are both now making decisions and taking actions you both maybe don't really want, but you're not tackling why you are making them, how they are perceived by one another, and whether they are intentional toward an outcome.

I've gotta say, to me this isn't quite over and done with, and I am one who chose to leave after my wife cheated "marginally physical". I couldn't live with it. But I wasn't leaving until I could look in the mirror and say I had tried my very best to move padt it (because her affair was already over when I found out). But I don't read this all being a dealbreaker for you, if she will just actually stop, wake up, see it for what it is, remove herself from this guy, work herself out of the fog, and return back to where you both probably want her to be, and go through counseling with you helping to tackle why she needs this external affirmation. 

It can be done, but it ain't easy, it's hard work for BOTH of you, and you both have to want it and commit to it. I feel like that "draw the line" discussion just hasn't happened, and needs to.

- Is she deep in an EA? Yes
- Could it have begun to get a little physical? Could be. Doesn't sound like it, but you know she's considered it, at least. 
- Is the marriage therefore over? Not if you are willing to fight really hard, and if she is willing to do what it takes and fight even harder. THAT is the question, to me... good luck bro.


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## Vulcan2013

The fact she's still texting him says it all. You need to present a full ultimatum. Divorce or no contact, counseling, etc. She needs to drop the toxic friends and get a different job. Casinos don't really have an environment that is family friendly. 

You might consider whether you really want to work this out. She seems addicted to other men's attention. 

Note, though, she wants yours when you won't give it.


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## Nucking Futs

I agree with Mablenc, don't waste your money on counseling as long as she's still in contact with him. To save the marriage she needs to leave that job and have no contact with him or her toxic friend that encourages her to cheat on you. If you don't think she'll be willing to do that then stop wasting time and file the divorce.

Understand that this is a marriage friendly site, and while we usually will go along with what a poster wants to do as far as advice goes there are certain things that we know will not work. Marital counseling while still in contact with the other man will not work. 

If you're determined to go through with the counseling be very picky about the counselor, most of them are not experienced at infidelity and many will try to just sweep it under the rug.

In my opinion this is close to a hopeless case. I don't see her snapping out of it until she has suffered catastrophic consequences for her actions.


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## nullrollz

2xloser said:


> I read your entire post.
> 
> Yes, she's in an EA. Pretty deeply. She actually knows it, now. She didn't before this all blew up, but now she finds herself texting him as this all goes down, even though she kniws she probably shouldn't. And it would be my belief that she actually can't believe she can't stop. VERY much like a drug addict.
> 
> And imho, that is how you *could* choose to treat it.
> If she were found to have a bad drug habit hidden, instead of her EA, what would you do? Probably (a) get her off the drugs, immediately, and (b) Ultimatum: Stop cold turkey, now, or I walk.
> An easy parallel to draw...
> 
> What I haven't heard in your discussions with her is 3 things:
> 
> 1- you making it clear to her, she has to choose -- him, or you. If that makes you controlling or overbearing in her mind, then whe's chosen and you can live with that, snd so be it. Her choice. Make it, to you, and then back it up.
> 
> 2- full access. She had this texting relationship (at least), which you've openly out in the table as fatal to your marriage, but you can't see the texts? Uh uh.
> 
> 3- MC, deep and intense and immediate. You are both now making decisions and taking actions you both maybe don't really want, but you're not tackling why you are making them, how they are perceived by one another, and whether they are intentional toward an outcome.
> 
> I've gotta say, to me this isn't quite over and done with, and I am one who chose to leave after my wife cheated "marginally physical". I couldn't live with it. But I wasn't leaving until I could look in the mirror and say I had tried my very best to move padt it (because her affair was already over when I found out). But I don't read this all being a dealbreaker for you, if she will just actually stop, wake up, see it for what it is, remove herself from this guy, work herself out of the fog, and return back to where you both probably want her to be, and go through counseling with you helping to tackle why she needs this external affirmation.
> 
> It can be done, but it ain't easy, it's hard work for BOTH of you, and you both have to want it and commit to it. I feel like that "draw the line" discussion just hasn't happened, and needs to.
> 
> - Is she deep in an EA? Yes
> - Could it have begun to get a little physical? Could be. Doesn't sound like it, but you know she's considered it, at least.
> - Is the marriage therefore over? Not if you are willing to fight really hard, and if she is willing to do what it takes and fight even harder. THAT is the question, to me... good luck bro.


Damn, your post really hit a chord with me. I don't want to give up, and if she can convince me she's willing to fight for it and do what needs to be done to satisfy my requirements, I will fight for it.

I will think on your post and respond more tomorrow after I've slept on it.



Nucking Futs said:


> I agree with Mablenc, don't waste your money on counseling as long as she's still in contact with him.


I also agree. It will be a waste of time. I was planning to bring it up at the first counseling session. I plan to tell the counselor and wife (same time) that I don't believe counseling will work unless she stops the affair, and that I don't intend to continue with it past the first session unless she does end the affair and go completely no-contact. Feel free to give me your thoughts on that.

To everybody else who has responded, I have read your messages and am thinking on them, I appreciate it. I will read/think/respond more tomorrow, so please feel free to keep the opinions coming, if you have any to share.


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## 2xloser

nullrollz said:


> At this point my plan is to go to a counseling session or two and just see where it goes. If she can't be convinced to end this relationship, I will finish filling them out and hand them to her. Big talk, I know, but I am ready to walk.


Like others above said, only got to MC if FIRST she goes complete NC and you witness it, otherwise you are wasting your time and money. Counselor won't make her stop the EA. You and she must, otherwise fill out the papers. That may be what wakes her up. Or not.


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## always_hopefull

First get the book "Not Just Friends" and look up the 180, start detaching for your own sanity. I also think you should get your kids DNA tested. Your wife keeps on about not trusting her, yet she has given you any reason to trust her. I personally wouldn't recommend spending any money on counselling while she has a BF, it's both a waste of your time and money. In order to save your marriage, you need to be willing to let it go. Right now she's got her cake and is enjoying it at your expense. 

What exactly would you like to do? Do you want to stay in a marriage where your wife spends so much of her time and efforts on another man? If your wife isn't willing to cut this guy out of your marriage, I'd be asking her to leave. Hopefully she will take your advice and post here too. Be wary, there are many affair support websites.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1

nullrollz said:


> I agree there's EA for sure. She says no PA. I am unsure.
> 
> Yes, the post is long. To be honest, I found it pretty therapeutic to get my thoughts out/more organized.
> 
> 
> 
> I did print off my states divorce papers. I began filling them out, but stopped. I haven't threatened divorce yet. The only thing I've done is expose it to her parents, my parents, my buddies, and told her I wanted her to leave. At this point my plan is to go to a counseling session or two and just see where it goes. If she can't be convinced to end this relationship, I will finish filling them out and hand them to her. Big talk, I know, but I am ready to walk.



I actually spent the time reading the whole thing. Very well written. Yes, she's cheating on you and her immaturity makes it worse. Get Vars, collect evidence and get a bulldog of an attorney, you'll need it and good luck. You deserve much better my friend


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## lisamaree

I'm sorry that you are going through this. My H did similar to me, so I know how deeply this hurts. And I totally understand your wife's behavior, my H did this to me as well and made me feel like I was the person in the wrong. It's a confusing time, and very very hurtful. I wish that WS knew how badly this hurts to go through.

She won't be able to do NC unless she gets a different job where she has no contact with him, I would also make her change her number after doing a NC call with you present on speakerphone. Then she will need to agree to full transparency. Otherwise she will continue to contact him and tell you it is work related, and she will constantly be reminded of her affair.

Make her choose - you or him. If she chooses him, divorce her and move on. You deserve much better. Be warned that if you choose to stay with her that you will never trust her, there will always be that feeling of mistrust there. My H was similar and we are 4 years post affair and I still check his phone and Facebook. Maybe not every day or every week but every once in a while I do. That has to be something you both can live with.

There is nothing controlling about transparency when one spouse has violated the trust in a relationship.


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## snerg

nullrollz said:


> Damn, your post really hit a chord with me. I don't want to give up, and if she can convince me she's willing to fight for it and do what needs to be done to satisfy my requirements, I will fight for it.


You're kidding right?

She's still texting him.

She's no longer fighting for you.

She's completely cake eating and you're allowing it.

NO MC.

Slap her with a divorce. Time for her to leave.

She's a serial cheater. She is unable (unwilling more than likely) to maintain proper boundaries.

You're going to be TT till you loose your mind.


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## jnj express

this is real simple----problem is you probably can't or won't bring yourself to do what is necessary

What is necessary, is she cuts all contact, with other men---completely-----you/she/your mge is now a 2 time loser----and you keep backing down/excusing yourself for doing NOTHING

Yes you do NOTHING---except gripe at her

Just put D on the table, as the consequences if she refuses to end her relationship with her LOVER

He is telling her what to do----as if he were her H, and she LISTENS/PAYS ATTENTION TO WHAT HE TELLS HER

Other things that need to be done---she gets off all social media for now----she quits her job at the casino, and ditto if she is working at a bar-----she can't be in situations like these ----as these jobs are completely social, and open her up to men of all kinds---who are there for social reasons themselves

No counseling at this point---it would be a waste of money-----she must end her contact with other men---before counseling is gonna do you any good

Remember---D/Threat of D, is the best weapon you have to get her to end the A/A's.


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## TRy

@OP: When after she said that she wanted a break you stated "I check verizon logs. Yup, she's been texting him for a couple hours before confronting me, and additionally texting him AFTER I left the bedroom." I realized just how much her loyalty has switched to the other man. At this point she is communicating with him about how to treat you and your marriage. They are now the "us" talking about you, where he is on the inside with her, and you are on the outside as the "him". I guess your wife missed the part of the wedding ceremony where they said "Therefore they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder (separate).” This after she promised to go no contact with him. Given a clear choice between giving him up, or giving you up and separating from you, she picked him, where she will only stay with you if she gets to keep him.

Cheaters always complain about not wanting to be controlled as the reason for the breakup, while forgetting that marriage is all about both parties agreeing to be controlled by your wedding vows, which is all that you are asking her to follow. I really do not see where you have any options here. At this point the other man's hold on your wife gets stronger every day that this continues. It it not a sure thing that she will pick you, but your odds only get worse the longer that you wait to make her decide you or him, with him meaning immediate divorce.


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## Rugs

Constantly texting.

Constantly texting anyone who will respond.

Texting a photo of a sex toy. (This one would end MY marriage on the spot).

You just keep moving the line in the sand and you're going to feel moving it until you fall off a cliff.

Your wife is a cheater. Sorry.

Yes, you most likely married too young. I don't know what to tell you as I just don't think your wife has any intention to stop cheating on you.

If you end up divorcing, you have plenty of time to find an awesome wife. It doesn't seem like you are ready to take any action so I'm not sure what to advise.


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## italianjob

You don't even need to ask about this being a EA, it's obvious...
I don't agree with whoever said this doesn't sound like it's gone physical, I think this has been a PA for some time now, even before the sex toy pic, I would guess probably gone physical around the time of "we must keep it appropriate ON HERE".

In just a few years it's the second time around, I think she had the opportunity to go physical in the previous one too (ex boyfriend), I think she's a serial cheater.

Are you sure you want to work on this?


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## FormerSelf

Your wife seems to thrive on attention and is obviously unable to say no or set boundaries. This needs to be addressed.

If you intend to work it out, then I think your guys' lifestyle needs to change. She needs to QUIT her parttime job...and going out to these clubs/parties with toxic people encouraging this behavior is DONE.

The fact that she keeps running back to cry on this guy's shoulder means that she does not understand boundaries. YOU NEED TO STOP BEING HER PARENT...or she will keep acting like a rebellious teen who can run to her friends and complain how mean her "daddy" is being!

Let her know that you from now on are going to treat her like an adult...and give her the freewill choice to DO WHATEVER SHE WANTS! However, if she chooses to stay in the marriage, then NC with this guy PERIOD, her job there is over, no more girls' night out (unless they are like _church_ girlfriends), and the marriage goes through a major overhaul. be sure to tell her that you are willing to make changes that have been pushing her away, but all in all, it is time to stop messing around.

QUIT the lectures or preaching. It will only be despised or ignored. Speak ONLY of choices and consequences. Let her be an adult. So if she chooses to want her freedom, show her the door...do not hold her back. If she chooses the marriage, then great. Again, you are not her parent. You have responsibilities. She has responsibilities. You have responsibilities to each other. 

In my honest opinion, kids come second to the marriage, so wife needs to stop losing it if she perceives her kids are not bonded to her. I brought that up only because it seemed like you thought it was a mitigating factor. It only shows to me that your wife may be dealing with some emotional immaturity or chemical instability. _Something_. In the long run, you guys need to have a relationship that is not filtered through the kids. They will not always be at home, you know. Build upon just YOU and HER.

IDK if PA had occurred...I don't see it, but I do see a young, immature woman looking for validation coming from men who are nice to her...and although she had rebuffed him in some areas, she keeps coming back to dangle the carrot back in his face to get that little thrill of attention. The sex toy pic was really pushing the boundary. That is a problem area. He probably checks back every now and then because he knows she has no boundaries...as YOU don't set them...and she constantly goes back on her word. He is just a vulture circling, checking in every now and then to see if the flesh is ripe. He needs to be OUT of the picture.

Read Boundaries book by Henry Cloud, or
Hedges: Loving Your Marriage Enough to Protect It

At this stage, make your principled stand, not being afraid of setting boundaries if you have been reluctant to do so before, afraid of being that "jerk" husband. You are not being a jerk by saying...THIS is what I expect of my marriage. THIS is what I expect of MY WIFE! You want to be in this marriage OR be my wife? If she says yes, then get those boundaries set...and anythng or anyone that tries to encroach upon your precious family, you need to stand up and say:


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## BobSimmons

nullrollz said:


> Damn, your post really hit a chord with me. I don't want to give up, and* if she can convince me she's willing to fight for it and do what needs to be done to satisfy my requirements, I will fight for it.*


So if she convinces you she's willing to fight then you'll leap at the chance?

If she's not willing, still texting the guy then you'll sleep on the couch until she convinces you that she's willing to fight for your marriage?

Am I correct?

She called your bluff and won. You told her to get out, she went to a lawyer, reality hit and she came back..that's the point you trampled over that line in the sand you drew and backtracked.

She knew you wouldn't kick her out or divorce so hence it continues.

You found out the hard way, the best way forward is to be willing to let something go. No negotiation, no bargaining. She wants to keep her "friend" then she can do it as a single woman.

Stop sleeping on the couch. Stop being disrespected


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## Jasel

She's still cheating, gaslighting, blameshifting, and lying. And this is after exposure and after you've already given her ultimatums and have drawn lines in the sand. I realize you don't want to break up your family, but what you and other BSes need to realize is the WS is the one doing that. Not you. It takes two committed people to make a relationship work. As long as she continues to talk to this guy, she's showing she isn't ready to commit to you, her marriage, or her family.

You need to do the 180 (google it or someone provide a link pls) and file for divorce. No more cuddling, no more talking about the relationship, no more bringing up the affair, etc. Keep any conversation limited to divorce, finances, or children. And yes do not leave the home (this can be used against you in divorce), SHE should leave the home if anything.

Start focusing on yourself and your children. Because your wife is only thinking about herself, and the only one you can control in the end is you.


----------



## ricky15100

The problem with your actions are, you're making threats and not following through, how can she take you seriously? 

These are your options

1. Tell her no contact anymore, she needs to leave the job, or she's gone and follow through

2. Stop whining about her affair and just accept she's screwing around, and live your life as a cuckold.


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## warlock07

They know you can monitor FB yet blatantly cheat there. You know, there are a million other chat apps?


----------



## warlock07

How are you deluding yourself so bad that this is not a PA?

Also, your wife is utterly classless. How are you even attracted to this trainwreck!!


----------



## ThePheonix

Null, you're a software engineer but you don't seem to understand woman-code or as we non-techies call it "womanese". When she said she wanted to take a break from you it means she's lost interest in you and is now in a "sub-routine" with her male friend, functioning independent of you and the marriage. 
You need deploy the divorce anti-virus. Tell her you can see how important her friendship is with guys and especially this particular guy. But unfortunately you're not the type man that can share his wife's attention to this extent, that you know its a "problem" you have that's making her unhappy and that you love her so much you can't stand to she her this unhappy, you recognize she needs these "friendships" and you want a divorce so she can pursue these other opposite sex friendship unfettered.
Tell her you've thought about her saying that she wanted ya'll to date again and you agree; and after you're divorced you're willing to consider that if times permits. Than after you've both had a chance to pursue other "friendships", and had some time apart, ya'll may decide you were really meant for each other.


----------



## Q tip

She likes alphas to your beta. That's the attraction. You have a stable mature boring side, and she likes it, Mr. Stable beta. But loves the exciting alpha side too. You know, a man who gets what he wants. Her, in this case. You need to develop a decent balance of both. Your present feelings of helplessness is merely a symptom of all this.

Man up. Read MMSLP. Head to the gym. Get buff. If you don't know how, get a trainer. Dump your fat. 

Serve D papers and move on. She'll either respond or she won't. You can't nice her back. She's gone. 

MMSLP will show you everything you know about women is wrong. The betaization of men is fraud. Man up and grow a pair.

Ain't no such thing as opposite sex friends. Well, there is, but not what you've been taught to believe... Any alpha would dump her now as there are hotter younger ones who don't cheat out there. 

Once she senses that in you, she'll respond. Then you have the power to D or R on your terms. And can move to D at any time. Next week or in 5 years. She gets no vote.

Oh, and have her dump that job. She has weak boundaries. That's the problem with her anyway. Would you date or marry someone with weak boundaries who can cheat and has a job to enable that behavior? Well, you did.


----------



## dgtal

Did you already know if this POS OM has a wife or gf? Start investigating. Im sorry I didnt read anything about it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Get an STD check and DNA the kids. Shock value and protect yourself. See a lawyer.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q-tip is on point. Shock and awe. Time to 180. Your W has no respect for you. She flaunts the affair. She is very immature. You, along with your kids, are now secondary in her world. She has exhibited selfish behavior and apparently blames a portion of her action on two children that did not bond before age 2. Using kids as pawns as answers to ones poor choices is childish at best. Your W needs IC. Second, leaving her at her current job is similar to leaving a alcoholic in charge of the liquor store. The temptation is there. History will repeat itself and or create a unbreakable stressful relationship between you and she. 

File the D. Mean business. Follow through. Two kids are now totally depending on you.


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## bfree

OP, I read your entire opening post. I skimmed through the replies so if someone already mentioned this I apologize. Counseling is useless so long as there is a third person in the relationship. She needs to go completely NC with him AND quit her job before you should even consider staying married to her. I would also demand she seek IC to determine why she seems to constantly seek out and encourage outside male attention. Until she agrees and actually takes action toward those things you should begin to show her what her life is going to be like without you in it. Start the 180 and treat her like you would a grocery store clerk or a letter carrier. You need to be friendly but completely unemotional. You also need to start showing her that you are preparing to move on. Look how freaked out she got when you mentioned opening up a separate bank account even though she'd already done it herself. She thinks she's in control. She thinks you're playing her game. And you are. She's getting off on the attention BOTH you and the OM are lavishing on her. Remove yourself from that equation. Once she sees that she truly will lose you she might come to her senses. Then and only then do you have a chance to work on things.


----------



## bfree

Oh and another thing. This guy is so damned comfortable whilst he seduces you wife. Get more info on him and start to make his insulated life not so comfy. If I were in your shoes I would find out if he is married or has a gf (don't take your wife's word for this.) Inform anyone in his personal life that he's trying to bed married women. Put him on Cheaterville and send him the link. Send a letter to the casino saying that he's acting inappropriately with your wife. They probably won't do anything but it will make them uncomfortable. Let others know your are probably divorcing and if they ask why tell them it's because your wife has a boyfriend. Some will say that this is contrary to the 180 and it demonstrates that you are still emotionally invested. I don't agree. As long as you treat her like the woman at the local DMV and she sees you actively working on moving on it will still work. After all, if I knew some POS was picking up married women I'd want him to suffer regardless.


----------



## LongWalk

Yes, put OM on Cheaterville. Make the text very encyclopaedia entry style, dry, unemotional, completely factual. You can run a draft by your thread followers.

Your wife may love you. However, she does not see the difference between having close male friends who wind her watch and having lovers who excite her sexually and emotionally. There is of course no real distinction except that she probably starts EA's without the conscious intention of cheating. How long does that last?

She has the wrong kind of job. You're not the first TAM spouse whose mate betrayed them in the casino. The atmosphere of the casino is heavy with fornication, prostitution, alcoholic abuse, self destruction, addictions. Why would you tolerate your wife being dunked in that immoral climate when she has poor resistance.

The good news is a black jack dealer cannot be entirely dumb or lazy, so she should be able to find some other work.

Time to man up:

1) Don't lose your temper around her anymore. Ever. Calm men are masculine. Don't b*tch or sulk. Act secure even if you aren't. Fake it if necessary.

2) Work out in the gym. If you are in kick arse shape, you'll look and feel more confident. You need that, regardless of the course you choose.

3) If your wife wants to divorce, just agree. Don't fight her. You cannot beg your way back into love.

4) If she wants to save your marriage, she must agree quit the job.

The key with a person like your wife is that you have to be more alpha. That doesn't mean you are going to be rude but that you respect yourself and expect it of others.

Remember that you can go in life without her. Subconsciously she probably knows that without stability her life is not going to go so well. She may remarry and divorce and remarry within the space of 3 years.


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## Maricha75

The majority of those who have responded have been betrayed, as well. I don't recall seeing any waywards respond... yet. Well, from the perspective of a wayward, the others are correct. It most definitely IS an EA, at the very least. Assuming she is telling the truth about whether or not she has had sex of any kind with anyone else, it's only a matter of time. The "break" she wants? It IS so she can have sex with this guy, "guilt free". I guarantee it. 

I also agree that counseling is pointless as long as she is still in contact with this guy. You have that first appointment set already. Go, and lay it all out there. If she is unwilling to end her affair, or if the counselor sides with her immediately, file the papers. You can always change your mind later. But she needs to see you won't put up with it any longer... even if that means divorce.

It's very telling that she can get a new account and it's perfectly ok. But you getting one means you MUST be planning to leave. Bullshyt.

Get it started. File the papers. You can always change your mind IF she straightens up.


----------



## TRy

Maricha75 said:


> It's very telling that she can get a new account and it's perfectly ok. But you getting one means you MUST be planning to leave.


 I agree. What it tells you is that she sees that the only reason that you got a new separate bank account as being that you were getting ready to leave her, because that is why she got a new separate bank account. What it also shows is that she has so little respect for you, that she thinks that when she initiates getting a new bank account, you are suppose to accept this, but when you do the same exact thing, she has a right to puts her foot down and takes action against you for it. She feels that she has all of the power in this marriage, and up until now I guess that she has.


----------



## Welsh15

Q tip said:


> She likes alphas to your beta. That's the attraction. You have a stable mature boring side, and she likes it, Mr. Stable beta. But loves the exciting alpha side too. You know, a man who gets what he wants. Her, in this case. You need to develop a decent balance of both. Your present feelings of helplessness is merely a symptom of all this.
> 
> Man up. Read MMSLP. Head to the gym. Get buff. If you don't know how, get a trainer. Dump your fat.
> 
> Serve D papers and move on. She'll either respond or she won't. You can't nice her back. She's gone.
> 
> MMSLP will show you everything you know about women is wrong. The betaization of men is fraud. Man up and grow a pair.
> 
> Ain't no such thing as opposite sex friends. Well, there is, but not what you've been taught to believe... Any alpha would dump her now as there are hotter younger ones who don't cheat out there.
> 
> Once she senses that in you, she'll respond. Then you have the power to D or R on your terms. And can move to D at any time. Next week or in 5 years. She gets no vote.
> 
> Oh, and have her dump that job. She has weak boundaries. That's the problem with her anyway. Would you date or marry someone with weak boundaries who can cheat and has a job to enable that behavior? Well, you did.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Time to grow a pair and take charge. Stop negotiating and lay out a plan of action - the threat that you walk and file divorce. Her level of disrespect here is amazing. She thinks the 2 kids will keep you in line no matter what she does. Time to upset the apple cart and take CONTROL. The job has to go for her. She clearly loves the attention she gets. Sorry you are here. Good luck


----------



## 6301

If you can't get her to stop with this guy and your her husband then no one can. Not her family or the MC.

If it was me, and I have to have this constant battle with her day in and day out, then I would have her served divorce papers and let her know that you gave her more chances then she would have given you and let her know that she can go do her thing with this guy but not in the same house where you and your kids live. 

You have been to the edge where your ready to pull the trigger on her and then you stop and she knows that you'll stop and that's why she keeps doing what shes been doing. 

Hand her the walking papers and then she'll see that she pushed you to the far side and she has no one to blame but herself, then if you want to reconcile with her, she's the one that has to do the hard work and actions speak louder than words. Stop playing games with her and hit her with a real good dose of reality.


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## FormerSelf

OP, you don't know how RARE a general consensus is on this forum...I think that is pretty significant.


----------



## lenzi

I read the entire first post as well. 

You have a ton of stuff in there that is completely irrrelevant and pointless, including the name of the movie you watched and what you thought of it. You realize that you're wasting the time of well meaning internet advice givers when you make the post 10x longer than it really needs to be.. and you discourage others from responding because they'll look at the size of that first post and say "no way am I reading that".

Anyway, I read it, I had half a mind to bold all the parts that you could have left out but I didn't.

Here's my consensus:

You sir, are a complete wuss and your cheating wife and her boyfriend are having a whole lot of fun at your expense, she's totally messing with your head and manipulating you, and you crying to her parents only make you look like even more of a sap, almost as much as telling her she has to leave and then just sort of forgetting about it as soon as she says she has lawyered up..

This is probably THE wussiest thing in your entire first post:



nullrollz said:


> One day, she was talking about him to me via text about something, and I said "For the record, I don't think his intentions are honorable"


She's freaking flirting with him and sexting him hundreds of times per month and sending him sex toy pictures and publically disrespecting you by telling him "we got in trouble" and probably sucking his d!ick and here you are saying "I don't think his intentions are honorable". She's probably laughing at you in between the gulps of semen swallowing. 

Look man you gotta make a choice. Step up to the plate, get tough and divorce her, or continue to let yourself get sh!t on by your wife and her boyfriend, neither of whom gives a rat's ass about you. 

Please work on making your response to these great advice posts a bit more brief.

Ok I just had to go back and skim over the largest first post I've ever read and grab a few chunks of completely irrelevant text just to make my point.



nullrollz said:


> My son and I bonded very closely while he was an infant/baby/toddler, but her and him did not bond, and she said this also had a huge effect on the way she felt. My son never wanted her until he was 1-1.5 years old, I was the only one that could calm him down/soothe him. (Even now my son is a lot like me/the way I was at his age; he even chose the same Ninja Turtle as his favorite as I did as a little boy).
> 
> She said that I had been unavailable, which has some truth to it. I hate to make excuses, especially when I didn't recognize them myself until after, but the stresses of a move/job loss/unable to find work/having to live off my parents donations took a huge toll on me. I told her that I felt she was taking her anger at her self-esteem/our son's affection out on me, and instead of expending the energy on us/our marriage, she instead chose to expend the energy on another man and hiding that friendship (which she admitted she did because it would "make me mad" (no ****)). I told her she had destroyed my trust and threw it out the window, and she agreed. During the 1-2 months that she was engaging in this behavior, I was bottling it all up inside and it took a lot of energy to stop from becoming externally angry at the smallest slight, nag, etc. from her.
> 
> My daughter was born and my wife was able to breast feed (my son wouldn't latch), so she began to lose weight. My daughter and her bonded (my daughter and I also bonded), her and I were in a better place (still not great), and things were better for about a year. My daughter eventually became more independent, and in my opinion started showing a preference towards me, like my son had. This hit my wife pretty hard. However, she had started losing weight and changing her appearance (red flag); she looked great, changed her hair color (I had always wanted her to try blonde, and it works well on her), and other men began to notice. My wife doesn't believe me when I say this, but I really don't get mad/jealous when some RANDOM guy tells her she's pretty or tries to pick her up. I may try to ask a question or two about the guy, but other than that I've usually forgotten about it within 30 minutes. However, when a man who considers himself her friend (and who she considers a friend) hits on her, speaks to her inappropriately, etc., I view that as crossing the line.
> 
> I feel that, as a man, and a man who's experienced this before in a prior relationship, that I know better. I'm also of the opinion that no man should ever talk to a married woman like this, and any 'man' who does isn't deserving of the title. I know I would never do that, and I know my closest male friends wouldn't either. My mother agrees with that as well.


You and your son had the same ninja turtle doll. That's nice. Why do you have the need to share this?


----------



## farside

You are in a really hard spot and I feel terribly for you. I did read your entire message. There is one theme from your post that has not been mentioned here: you seem to have a very strong support network and much of that support network are people that have influence over her (her parents). Before you drop the atomic bomb, talk to them. I agree that it is a reasonable request that she cut off contact with him, but I think she may need to hear that from someone other than you. Give counseling a chance.

She is your wife and the mother of your children. Before you throw that away I would be sure its the right decision and that you exhausted all options. Individual counseling may also help you. If you want an impartial perspective, the internet is not the place to find it.

With that said, MMSLP would certainly be a good read for you.


----------



## nullrollz

lenzi said:


> I read the entire first post as well.
> 
> You have a ton of stuff in there that is completely irrrelevant and pointless, including the name of the movie you watched and what you thought of it. You realize that you're wasting the time of well meaning internet advice givers when you make the post 10x longer than it really needs to be.. and you discourage others from responding because they'll look at the size of that first post and say "no way am I reading that".
> 
> Anyway, I read it, I had half a mind to bold all the parts that you could have left out but I didn't.
> 
> Here's my consensus:
> 
> You sir, are a complete wuss and your cheating wife and her boyfriend are having a whole lot of fun at your expense, she's totally messing with your head and manipulating you, and you crying to her parents only make you look like even more of a sap, almost as much as telling her she has to leave and then just sort of forgetting about it as soon as she says she has lawyered up..
> 
> This is probably THE wussiest thing in your entire first post:
> 
> 
> 
> She's freaking flirting with him and sexting him hundreds of times per month and sending him sex toy pictures and publically disrespecting you by telling him "we got in trouble" and probably sucking his d!ick and here you are saying "I don't think his intentions are honorable". She's probably laughing at you in between the gulps of semen swallowing.
> 
> Look man you gotta make a choice. Step up to the plate, get tough and divorce her, or continue to let yourself get sh!t on by your wife and her boyfriend, neither of whom gives a rat's ass about you.
> 
> Please work on making your response to these great advice posts a bit more brief.
> 
> Ok I just had to go back and skim over the largest first post I've ever read and grab a few chunks of completely irrelevant text just to make my point.
> 
> 
> 
> You and your son had the same ninja turtle doll. That's nice. Why do you have the need to share this?


God damn, no sugar-coating there. I prefer it that way.

You're right, a lot of it was probably me deflecting. I will be sure to trim un-necessary information.

Also, I agree with a lot of what you say.


----------



## thummper

nullrollz said:


> God damn, no sugar-coating there. I prefer it that way.
> 
> You're right, a lot of it was probably me deflecting. I will be sure to trim un-necessary information.
> 
> Also, *I agree with a lot of what you say*.


Glad to hear you're listening to advice you're getting here. Still, it remains to be seen if you'll take it. :scratchhead:


----------



## nullrollz

I've read all the posts twice over. I agree with almost all of it. I've been weak and beta, plain and simple.

I will respond to them later in a single post with a plan of action.


----------



## notmyrealname4

OP


Although your first post was lengthy; I don't think that's so bad.

If it helped you to vent, open up, and say stuff you hadn't been able to say to anyone else; then I think it was worth it.

I believe that's what TAM is for and about.


----------



## ThePheonix

farside said:


> I agree that it is a reasonable request that she cut off contact with him, but I think she may need to hear that from someone other than you.


A "reasonable request" and "she may need to hear that from someone other than you" my azz. It needs to be in the form of a not negotiable demand and if she lost so much interest is him that coming from him and only him ain't good enough to stop her, she's going to ultimately cashier him anyway. If it were me, I'd already replaced this prima donna for walking all over me for the likes of this guy. Why compete with every swinging d!ck out there for your own wife? There are too many other enjoyable things to do and life is short. Men forget that disloyal wives are replaceable with newer and more easy on the psyche models.


----------



## Buddy400

The most interesting part of this is how your wife doesn't even try to hide anything. She's assuming that you'll find all this stuff and just enjoys the drama. It's like she's in high school playing the "get my boyfriend jealous game". The separate checking account is completely wrong. She must have done it just to mess your head. She loves male attention and drama. I doubt that you can change her.

However, the only play for you (if you're interested) is "shock and awe" alpha male dominance. She might just be looking for someone to stand up to her and dominate the situation. If you're interested in playing that game (I wouldn't be).


----------



## jnj express

You have nothing to think about------you put the threat of D---ON THE TABLE, as a consequence of her NOT, ending her relationship, and quitting her job, and staying away from other men, and social media, she is also to switch to an old style PHONE ONLY---no media or texting available

Ask her point blank, how she intends to live w/out you supporting her---ask her if her lover can take care of her in the decent way you have taken care of her-----and DO NOT BE NICE ABOUT HOW YOU SPEAK TO HER----let her know in no uncertain terms----you are fed up with her and her BS----and done with her---if any of this continues one more day------

When you talk to her---you do it with ICY CALM----you do not discuss, argue, dialogue, ask for an answer----say what you have to say, and immediately, leave for 3 to 4 hours---go DARK ON HER----let her stew in her own juices-----if this has no affect----then D----DOES NEED TO BE PUT ON THE TABLE


----------



## nullrollz

I ended up spending the day with my kids, playing, and reading more in "NOT Just Friends." Again, I appreciate the comments and hard truths, and plan to respond to them tonight or tomorrow, time permitting.


----------



## nullrollz

jnj express said:


> this is real simple----problem is you probably can't or won't bring yourself to do what is necessary
> 
> What is necessary, is she cuts all contact, with other men---completely-----you/she/your mge is now a 2 time loser----and you keep backing down/excusing yourself for doing NOTHING
> 
> Yes you do NOTHING---except gripe at her
> 
> Just put D on the table, as the consequences if she refuses to end her relationship with her LOVER
> 
> He is telling her what to do----as if he were her H, and she LISTENS/PAYS ATTENTION TO WHAT HE TELLS HER
> 
> Other things that need to be done---she gets off all social media for now----she quits her job at the casino, and ditto if she is working at a bar-----she can't be in situations like these ----as these jobs are completely social, and open her up to men of all kinds---who are there for social reasons themselves
> 
> No counseling at this point---it would be a waste of money-----she must end her contact with other men---before counseling is gonna do you any good
> 
> Remember---D/Threat of D, is the best weapon you have to get her to end the A/A's.


You make a lot of good points. I recognize that I need to stand my ground, and think I'm getting to that point just reading through the responses here. I've had to face a lot of hard truths today, but feel more justified/validated at this point.

I agree she needs to quit her job. It's a ****ty atmosphere full of ****ty people with ****ty addictions. She needs to quit having male friends, period, and needs to drop the toxic female friends who aren't supportive of our marriage. Anything less is unacceptable, and I *WILL* file for divorce if she waivers or refuses to meet a requirement.

She will need to be completely transparent, to *MY SATISFACTION*, or I *WILL* file for divorce.

I'm slowly but surely getting my thoughts straight. Getting this non-sugar-coated advice has helped tremendously with that.


----------



## LongWalk

Good.

Lay out the boundaries but without anger.

Don't tell you wife you love her. Don't be wordy.


----------



## Q tip

Betas are not weak. Read the book MMSLP. Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011. You need to read it several times. Take it seriously. 

You will grow into the decent, balanced man all ladies want and need. Probably not your current W (skank, sorry bout that)

Wuss, yah, whipped, sure, doormat, yep.


----------



## nullrollz

Q tip said:


> Betas are not weak. Read the book MMSLP. Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011. You need to read it several times. Take it seriously.
> 
> You will grow into the decent, balanced man all ladies want and need. Probably not your current W (skank, sorry bout that)
> 
> Wuss, yah, whipped, sure, doormat, yep.


I agree with that. I have really slipped from the confident, empowered guy I used to be that had zero problems meeting/attracting women, to a doormat in my own home. I won't stand for it any longer.

I just picked up "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I will also pick up the book you recommend.


----------



## IIJokerII

Null, It also needs to be said that when, not if, you file for Divorce you must prepare yourself for her to tell you "Okay" with enthusiasm. Warning, this will hurt you more than you know, but it can, and does, happen. 

Are you prepared?


----------



## thummper

nullrollz said:


> I agree with that. *I have really slipped from the confident, empowered guy I used to be that had zero problems meeting/attracting women, to a doormat in my own home. I won't stand for it any longer.*
> 
> I just picked up "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I will also pick up the book you recommend.


And you can change that fairly easily. Let her know in no uncertain terms that you've reached the absolute end of your patience. Lay out for her what she needs to do to save your marriage, including getting out of that whole toxic environment. If she flat out refuses, then you know what you have to do. Doing anything else will only keep this intolerable situation going. Her reaction to your new alpha personage will let you know immediately what she will do or not do. No cooperation? File for divorce and then see how she acts. If it doesn't bother her, then you'll know you made the right decision. Good luck to you. No matter which way it goes, it's got to be better than what you're going though now.


----------



## TRy

IIJokerII said:


> Null, It also needs to be said that when, not if, you file for Divorce you must prepare yourself for her to tell you "Okay" with enthusiasm. Warning, this will hurt you more than you know, but it can, and does, happen.
> 
> Are you prepared?


 This is a great point. The truth is that, based on her past experience with you, she will more than likely call what she believes is a bluff, and say "Okay" with enthusiasm to you saying that you will file for divorce. If she does this, you will need to proceed with the divorce with equal enthusiasm, and not look back so that it will finally hit her that the divorce is happening, and that it was not a bluff. At that point she will for the first time be forced to think things through from your point of view, and decide if she want to be the one that is willing to do the work to try to save the marriage.


----------



## jnj express

If you really want to make an impression with her----go to your state's legal forms----print out the D packet, Custody Packet, and Property Settlement Packet's.

If she is going to play hard ball back at you, when you lay out your boundaries-------then leave the packets where she can find them-----she does not have to know, that you haven't seen an Atty., but she sure as he*l is gonna think you have seen an atty.

If you want this mge----then you fight on your side with each and every weapon available to you-----the blank packets will bring REALITY CRASHING DOWN ON HER REAL QUICK!!!!!!


----------



## IIJokerII

jnj express said:


> If you really want to make an impression with her----go to your state's legal forms----print out the D packet, Custody Packet, and Property Settlement Packet's.
> 
> If she is going to play hard ball back at you, when you lay out your boundaries-------then leave the packets where she can find them-----she does not have to know, that you haven't seen an Atty., but she sure as he*l is gonna think you have seen an atty.
> 
> If you want this mge----then you fight on your side with each and every weapon available to you-----the blank packets will bring REALITY CRASHING DOWN ON HER REAL QUICK!!!!!!


Uh, no. This will tip his hand. Threats may have an impact, actions DO have an impact.


----------



## LongWalk

Read the 180. File for divorce.

Remorse is necessary to save your marriage. 

If you agree to R without remorse, you will be tormented by the thought of her masturbating at his command. She was not thinking of you when she used the toy. In truth their affair was likely consummated and that secret is an obstacle to reconciliation.


----------



## lordmayhem

Find out if the OM has a girlfriend or wife and expose it. Like others have said, this is at the very least an EA, most likely PA. There are many ways to keep in contact besides facebook. I suggest you immediate put a VAR under her drivers seat of her vehicle. 

She's almost rubbing it in your face. Do not stand for this.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I'm quite shocked that a software engineer wouldn't have the means or ability to sniff out exactly what is going on considering she uses computers and smartphones to communicate with this guy. 

Maybe you need an IT professional to help you out?


----------



## X-B

As others have said she has 0 respect for you. Do the other men have wives. if they do make sure they know everything. She has to stop all contact so somebody has to change jobs. I am not sure if my wife would have stopped talking to OM if he didn't tell her to stay far away from him.


----------



## nullrollz

Sorry for the delay, folks. It's been a busy two weeks. Things have gone downhill. But that's okay!


TL;DR, because I'm a long-winded ass: separated (not legally), cohabitating, I'm focusing on myself and kids, and lately she's been what I call "pretend trying" (or coming back to plan B, maybe?). I don't buy it. Zero remorse, zero respect, zero apologies, claims it's all my fault. She's been out of the house most nights, away from the kids; a fair number of those nights she was out drinking/smoking pot/being an idiot. I have a meeting scheduled with a lawyer for this coming Tuesday (was originally this past Thursday but he had to reschedule); all of my family and friends now support divorce, as do I.

-------------

I'll try to keep this short... wait, who am I kidding...

I apologize for not replying to everybody individually. I've been focusing solely on myself and my kids. I agreed to her (third) separation request about two weeks ago. I wasn't for the idea at first (cue the "where did I put my balls, again?" hindsight), because love and feelings and ****. A day or two after that it hit me... "Holy ****... I'm happier this way!"

I had started going to the gym a couple days before that, and have gone 3-4 nights a week since. Already beginning to notice improvements, not just in weight but in mood, wakefulness, etc.

At first she agreed she was going to find a place, with a friend, and move out. A day or two later she sat down and asked me to move out. I told her the same thing I told her when I agreed to her separation: "No. This is my home. I refuse to leave. You wanted this separation, now you leave or deal with me being here."

I've been cordial to her. We do talk a bit, nothing major.

During the separation talk she said "if you happen to meet somebody else, don't block them out just because we might get back together," which we all know as code for "I'm intending to find somebody or have already found somebody, you should too." The next day she stopped wearing her wedding rings, because she "felt sad" when she looked at them, and was "tired of answering questions" and "pretending she was happy" to other people (quite possibly the most selfish reason I've ever heard). She also updated her FB status to Separated (but made it private).

I also got the "I need to find myself" and a really ****ty (laughably so) version of "I love you bit I'm not in love with you."

Several days later we got into it over text a little bit, and she asked "... are we over?" to which I only responded by again asking "Why did you take off your wedding rings?" Same answer. We talked for a little bit, and I asked "You don't think you did anything wrong?", and she responded no and began insulting me for calling her a cheater, and how she's always been faithful to me. Harhar. IMHO there are only 3 reasons a spouse will take their wedding rings off: 1) because they don't want them to get dirty/damaged, 2) their fingers are swollen (hers were during pregnancy), or 3) to signal that they're available.

She has hinted at alimony and child support. I took what she was saying as a threat, and told her to stop threatening me. She actually expects me to move out into a "1 bedroom apartment," pay for half the rent at our current place (and likely both cars and everything else I pay for right now), etc. so we can "start dating again." Again, I said, flat out, no. She claims she only makes $1600 a month, but I know it's closer to $3000 (which is still considerably less than I make) when you look at her average paycheck amount over the past 3 months AND her side business. I expect her to try and lie about that during the settlement proceedings.

She continues to talk to the OM, and has added another OM to her list, we'll call him OM2. I actually met this guy right before we separated; he wouldn't look me in the eye or even in my direction, he didn't introduce himself, and she just pointed him out in passing and said no more about it (but proceeded to flirt with him in front of me). OM2 has passed me and her closest sister on snapchat on her top friends list. She's sent and received probably close to 500 snapchats, but I have no way of knowing EXACTLY to whom.

Relationship with OM got pretty deep after I agreed to separate. Several nights they were texting back and forth until 3am. Then one day she mentioned that he was possibly seeing another girl.

Since then, I noticed two things:

1) a huge decrease in the number of texts the OM sends to her, and a HUGE increase in the number of texts she sends to him. I have no other context, but it seems like he's dropping her. 
2) she has all of a sudden began to miss me, wanted me to come back to bed, etc. My only thought was "No, I won't be anybody's plan B" and have remained on the couch.

As of tonight, it's been 13 days since I agreed to separate. She's spent 12 of those nights out of the house, and 10 of them out "with friends" (most of those nights she's out drinking, including smoking pot). She's been exceedingly lazy around the house lately (whereas I've cleaned the entire main floor twice now, not for her, but for myself/the kids), and hasn't done much with the kids. One day, after not seeing them ALL DAY, she gets home around 8:30pm. She hugs them both, and then immediately announces it's bed time and that she's going to go lay in bed and watch TV. Dunno about you guys, but if I haven't seen my kids all day, all I want to do is spend time with them when I get home, regardless of how "tired" I am.

Tonight, she's out with her friends, and I've noticed she's begun to call OM. I assume she's trying to get him to come out and party with her. I'm surprisingly okay with it at this point, but it may hit me later, who knows.

Even my aunt (and godmother), the woman who officiated our marriage ceremony, wants to tell her off. I simply said "wait until the divorce." Most people agree, and I agree with them, that she'll come crawling back after she realizes that she's not likely to find another man who will be as good to her as I was and will put up with as much of her bull**** as I did. She's no longer as thin as she was, and likely never will be, and after I put her ass on cheaterville (after the divorce), she's not likely to meet somebody.

She's hinted several times at sex, and that it's okay for us to have it since we're both people that have needs (LOL?). I said no. She even today said "let's go upstairs and fool around!" My resposne was to look her in the eye and slowly shake my head no while smiling. She wasn't happy about that, and threw on the waterworks. I ignored it.

I document everything she does. Her comings/goings, how late she's out, where she (supposedly) goes and what she (supposedly) does. I note how often she goes out drinking. She was dumb enough to admit to me that she smoked pot over SMS (pot is still illegal in MN for non-medicinal uses). She's also began smoking cigarettes, which she was hospitalized once for and almost die from because of her asthma. Good god she's stupid. I do this in the event that she tries to take my kids away from me (which, btw, we've both verbally agreed to joint legal and physical custody, and also both verbally agreed that neither would be allowed to move more than one hour away from the other max, which is fine with me).

I've moved my paycheck over to my personal checking, and after getting the go-ahead from the lawyer will:

1) release her phone number to her, or outright cancel it if she refuses to assume liability for it, and just eat the early cancellation fee. No way will I pay for her to continue ****ing off on me. She can pay for that.
2) cancel all auto-debit and take my name off the joint account. I will then move auto-debits to my personal account. I'm assuming I'll have to continue paying for everything to "maintain the same standard of living as before" until the divorce is final. She's agreed to take one of the cars (and release me/my dad (who had to co-sign) from it), including its payments and insurance. I'm taking the other, and she's agreed to take her name off it.

There's likely a bunch I'm leaving out but this is long enough as it is. I'm moving forward with divorce. She doesn't know it yet (although she may suspect?); I'm really just being cordial/nice to delay her from moving forward with it first. She hasn't admitted to any wrong-doing. At all. I assume there's a lot more I haven't heard. Part of me wants to hear it, for closure, but in the end I don't really ****ing care. I just want to get out with as much dignity as I can, and with paying as little as I can in alimony/child support. Most people I've spoken with think my monthly payments won't be so bad, but who knows.

My kids and myself are my primary concern. I've told her I'm taking them to my hometown for Christmas, and she's agreed.

Thanks again for all the advice/opinions. A lot of it was hard to read, but in the end was what I needed (and wanted). I'll check back here and respond as I can.


----------



## MattMatt

Having sex with her would be a bad idea as it would negate adultery as grounds for divorce.

Keep a VAR handy as she may get inventive with acusations of violence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## G.J.

Sorry to hear it went downhill or in a half full glass way uphill as you are starting to know where you are and where you are heading.
Keep up the gym and focus on your beautiful kids


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## farsidejunky

You've got your head screwed on straight. I would serve her with as little fanfare as possible. Be cordial, move forward with the divorce and take her for everything you can.

Then when it is over, if you still have the need to do it, cheaterville, exposure, etc.

Stay strong, brother.


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## Mr.Fisty

Keep the detachment going, and the rose colored love glasses will disappear. Play smart, and don't show your hand. The less the opponent knows about your actions, the better. Keep calm cool, and collective around her, and that will drive her more nutty. She wants a reaction from you, because she wants power over you. In your mind, tell yourself your dealing with a stranger, and limit all conversation to kids and nothing else, unless it pertains to splitting. Don't ask what she is doing, and don't answer her when she asks you. She does not deserve to know anything intimate about you, as that is reserved for a trusted partner.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Looking for an un-biased outside opinion on wife's p(proba|ossi)ble EA*



tdwal said:


> Its no fault here in MN Matt, wouldn't matter. VARS are legal in MN as well.


It'd be nice if the OP could get her talking about drinking/drugs on a VAR wouldn't it?


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## nullrollz

I have a screenshot of her admitting to drinking and smoking pot (screenshot of an SMS text that I received from her).

I found some more info this morning. I have direct evidence of a physical affair (with a different/random guy). I have screenshots of the Facebook conversation, and intend to show her family after the divorce (to avoid any potential blowback from her in terms of an easy settlement). I'm also going to call this guy soon and let him know she's still married and actively trying to "make it work" with us. (at least that's what she portrays, often telling me she loves and misses me, hugs, wants to cuddle, etc.; I didn't buy it for a second and even less so now).

I've spoken with my folks, they offer their support, both emotionally and financially. My father and mother (divorced) both offered to help me out with lawyer fees, to get this done asap. I'm meeting with a lawyer Tuesday at 3pm. If he seems like a good guy who I feel understands the importance of father's in the lives of the kids, I will retain him on the spot.

Does anybody have any tips on how to choose a good lawyer for this kind of thing? Like I said above, I want one who will fight for me, but also for fairness. I don't want my kids to not see their mom, it's not fair to them. Eventually they'll realize on their own that she's a ****ty person, and when they're older and ask me questions I will tell them exactly what she did (I'm talking late teens/early 20's).

EDIT:

I have no worries about my own financial situation. Assuming I don't get taken to the cleaners, I'll be just fine, and likely better off, in terms of finances. I just don't have the money on hand right now because until recently I misplaced my balls and allowed my wife to spend most of it. Since that's changed, my savings has grown dramatically and I'm no longer worried about missing bills.


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## warlock07

> and intend to show her family after the divorce (to avoid any potential blowback from her in terms of an easy settlement)


I never seen this line of thinking working out in the BS favor..


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## Tobyboy

nullrollz said:


> I'm also going to call this guy soon and let him know she's still married and actively trying to "make it work" with us.


Bad move!!! First find out if the new guy is married or in relationship and expose to them.


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## Forest

Your parents sound good. Concerned. This is a time when I'd say not to think twice about letting them help with the attorney costs. They have a vested interest, too: their grandchildren.

Make sure you get an attorney that has some interest or knowledge about the father's rights trend. Sounds basic, but what was the standard the last 50 years is being challenged successfully these days by attorneys that stand up and demand proper treatment of fathers.

Be careful of accepting "that's just the way it is". Everything that "is" remains that way only until someone comes along and challenges it.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Looking for an un-biased outside opinion on wife's p(proba|ossi)ble EA*



Tobyboy said:


> Bad move!!! First find out if the new guy is married or in relationship and expose to them.


If she's still in contact won't this also to his hand to her?


----------



## the guy

Next time she approaches you for sex ask for a rubber.

An if she pulls one out....it will tell you #1 she is well prepared for random sex. #2 you consider her dirty.

Also next time you talk ask if she is pregnant see what her reaction is.


Ask your lawyer what will happen if your old lady gets banged up before the divorce.


From were I'm sitting your safer hiring some strange to bang then doing it with your old lady.


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## the guy

Hell alls you need now is for her to get a DUI along with a possesion charge and custody is a slam dunk for you.

Her behavior is great for your side of things, but the kids are really getting the short end of the stick by no longer having a mother.

It's scary cuz she is self distructing during a seperation....I hate to see what kind of phuck up she becomes when the divorce is final.


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## the guy

My old lady met a lot of toxic co workers as a slot server. She never sh!t were she ate, all of her OM's were from a bar when out with those toxic co workers.

It suck she considered these phucks as friend as they continued to support her in the distruction of her family. She's better now, thank God!



Man you have some very young kids, and with your old ladies bonding issues with them...it's all screwed up, and won't get better.

I suggest you get to work on finding a good step mother for the kids.


As your old lady continues like mine did, you may want to reconsider the agreement with regards to custody.....If your old lady continues on her current path you may want to consider supervised visitation.


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## nullrollz

the guy said:


> Hell alls you need now is for her to get a DUI along with a possesion charge and custody is a slam dunk for you.
> 
> Her behavior is great for your side of things, but the kids are really getting the short end of the stick by no longer having a mother.
> 
> It's scary cuz she is self distructing during a seperation....I hate to see what kind of phuck up she becomes when the divorce is final.


You make an amazing point here. She is spiraling the drain.

The thought has crossed my mind that she is a completely unfit parent. When I take into consideration:

1) her recent alcohol/pot consumption, not just since the separation but even before then (it's been steadily increasing over the past several months/year). Several nights she's texted me that she's too drunk to drive home, and then shows up an hour later having driven the car. Her dad has gotten two+ DUI's, her sister has one, so it seems alcohol addiction runs in the family.
2) how often she's gone, out, with friends, etc. and how quick she is to put them to bed right away instead of spending time with them
3) how god damn lazy she is; she rarely fixes them a proper meal, and if I'm not home to make them a meal they get fed garbage food like McDonald's and Domino's.

If she can barely be bothered to take care of them and the house while I'm here doing most of the heavy lifting, how in the hell is she going to do that when she's living alone?

I believe I have an answer: she's been seeking out several other men, some exes and others who have just shown interest in the past. She tells them she's "on her own" now and "needs to find a place." I'm guessing she's trying to find some sugar-daddy to pay her way like I have been. She is well aware that even if I do have to give her alimony/child support (and I will require receipts with the child support to verify it's going towards my kids), it won't be all that much (or so I hope) and she'll still have to work more than she is now.

I'm just going to keep working on myself and likely stay single for a while. Maybe pick up a FWB, but nothing serious. I'm also going to look into a personal counselor to deal with this ****, as I know any future relationships are doomed because of trust issues gained from her.


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## the guy

Talk to your lawyer about a moral clause.

You need some protection to prevent her have the kids around other men. Granted if she can get her *own* place you can't prevent it.....but you to not want your kids at another mans house especially when their mother feels trapped with no were to go and has to submit to what her boy friend does with her kids.

My big point is no costody until she has her own place.


Did you know that the mothers boyfriend has the highest % of being a child predator/abuser...even higher then family friend which comes in second...even above priests.


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## the guy

Id hate to see some guy slapping your kids around while she is passed out on the couch with a spilt bong in front of her.


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## Nucking Futs

Do not talk to the OM until she's been served. He'll tip her off and you'll lose part of your advantage.


----------



## the guy

Sorry brother the women you married is no longer around.....you have a stranger coming and going.

You may as way let me come over and watch your kids.

I'd do a better job then your old lady but you get the point...right?


----------



## the guy

Nucking Futs said:


> Do not talk to the OM until she's been served. He'll tip her off and you'll lose part of your advantage.


Some thing tells me the new OM won't even remember....so if you do confront you might have to descripe her.:lol:


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## NoChoice

Null,
It appears that your wife has had some sort of psychotic episode. She is imbibing and using illegal drugs and then operating a motor vehicle? That is at least reckless endangerment and if the children end up in her care......I prefer not to think about it.

I submit that you must fight diligently for full custody of your children. It sickens me to know that there are judges that would award custody of children to a drug addicted mother instead of their father, when it is clear that the father is a better choice for the children. In any event, you must fight for your kids because it is clear to anyone of prudence that she isn't going to. Once she is "free' and on her own, those kids will get little care when they are not with you. Be strong for them and hang tough.


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## manfromlamancha

I just read your entire thread. This has been going on longer than you think and with more other men than you think. I am assuming you know your kids to be yours without a DNA test for each ?

You say you have evidence of a PA ? With yet again some other OM (not OM1 or OM2) ? What did you find ? And what have you done with it so far ? Don't confront until you have all your ducks in a row.


----------



## the guy

Well that's my whole point ....right now OP needs to make a case for himself.

As long as the kids are safe don't scare off the new OM and let his old lady dig her own grave.

This chick has some deep seeded issues we fond that out when OP mentioned the disconnect with her 1st kid and then it happened again w/the 2nd. I mean come on these kids are still sh*ting their pants and she is off the charts!

And now she blows the second chance when she 1st got confronted and continues to phuck up...hell even worse then before. I think we all can see were her priorities are.

Hell ya she is nuts and it's deep seeded.......normal folks do things different to make a change....crazy folks keep doing the same sh!t over and over again and expect a change.

Sorry this happened to OP so young in his life....but it could be worse.


----------



## the guy

manfromlamancha said:


> I just read your entire thread. This has been going on longer than you think and with more other men than you think. I am assuming you know your kids to be yours without a DNA test for each ?
> 
> You say you have evidence of a PA ? With yet again some other OM (not OM1 or OM2) ? What did you find ? And what have you done with it so far ? Don't confront until you have all your ducks in a row.


Confronting her now won't do sh1t with her current state of mind....what until she hits rock bottom and when her lawyer tells her she lost custody she might take the steps to rebuild her self....not as a wife but as a mother.

From were I'm sitting enough has been said and yet she continues with unhealthy behavior....for a married women with kids.


----------



## nullrollz

manfromlamancha said:


> I just read your entire thread. This has been going on longer than you think and with more other men than you think. I am assuming you know your kids to be yours without a DNA test for each ?
> 
> You say you have evidence of a PA ? With yet again some other OM (not OM1 or OM2) ? What did you find ? And what have you done with it so far ? Don't confront until you have all your ducks in a row.


I have not done DNA tests yet. Physical features and similarities to both myself and my mother are very high. My mother and I believe them both to be mine. Stilll, I will likely end up doing a paternity test, but am going to talk to lawyer first.

Yes, evidence of a PA with a new OM (OM3). I found that she had met OM3 at a bar and was very physical with him, grabbing his ****, very heavy flirting, and being very hands on. Likely more. They talked about that in FB messages, and went on to talk about how attracted they were to one another, what their intentions were (get in each other pants), how she intended to bed him; it was pretty graphic, e.g. she asked him how big he was, and he said "[insert typical male "big enough" answer here], but you'll have to find out first hand!" and she responded excitedly and hinted that she intended to do so soon.

I showed my buddy who was up until just recently all about reconciliation. He had been slowly changing his mind towards divorce, but when he saw the messages he only said "DROP THE HAMMER BRO!" Another male buddy reacted similarly, but he had been pushing for divorce for longer.

She also has began talking to exes and ex-flings, making sure to tell them she's now SINGLE, and needs to find a place to live. (Not sure if I mentioned that previously).

I just got back from the gym. Down 5 pounds already! Time to watch some TV and hang with the kids before bed.


----------



## MattMatt

nullrollz said:


> I have not done DNA tests yet. Physical features and similarities to both myself and my mother are very high. My mother and I believe them both to be mine. Stilll, I will likely end up doing a paternity test, but am going to talk to lawyer first.
> 
> Yes, evidence of a PA with a new OM (OM3). I found that she had met OM3 at a bar and was very physical with him, grabbing his ****, very heavy flirting, and being very hands on. Likely more. They talked about that in FB messages, and went on to talk about how attracted they were to one another, what their intentions were (get in each other pants), how she intended to bed him; it was pretty graphic, e.g. she asked him how big he was, and he said "[insert typical male "big enough" answer here], but you'll have to find out first hand!" and she responded excitedly and hinted that she intended to do so soon.
> 
> I showed my buddy who was up until just recently all about reconciliation. He had been slowly changing his mind towards divorce, but when he saw the messages he only said "DROP THE HAMMER BRO!" Another male buddy reacted similarly, but he had been pushing for divorce for longer.
> 
> She also has began talking to exes and ex-flings, making sure to tell them she's now SINGLE, and needs to find a place to live. (Not sure if I mentioned that previously).
> 
> I just got back from the gym. Down 5 pounds already! Time to watch some TV and hang with the kids before bed.


She's not doing much to make reconciliation easy, is she?

Say! Wait a minute! Is she playing a game? Trying to goad you into filing for divorce?:scratchhead:


----------



## nullrollz

MattMatt said:


> She's not doing much to make reconciliation easy, is she?
> 
> Say! Wait a minute! Is she playing a game? Trying to goad you into filing for divorce?:scratchhead:


I'm thinking that's likely, or at least a possibility. Is there something I don't know when it comes to who files for divorce first?


----------



## the guy

File 1st.
Tells the judge you are in an unhealthy situation and need to make the changes to protect you and your child.

If she files 1st she can make you look like the bad guy. She won't trust me...she is having to much fun to worry about reality.

You need to act now before she figures out she is about to loose everything.

She is in a fog....take advantdage!


----------



## the guy

or sit back and let your wife take your kids.


----------



## the guy

nullrollz said:


> I'm thinking that's likely, or at least a possibility. Is there something I don't know when it comes to who files for divorce first?


You are sueing some one....you are making a complaint....so ya file 1st.


----------



## MattMatt

nullrollz said:


> I'm thinking that's likely, or at least a possibility. Is there something I don't know when it comes to who files for divorce first?


If you file she can put all the blame on you?

For answers on questions specific to your case and in your jurisdiction regarding divorce, seek qualified legal opinion and guidance.


----------



## the guy

Hell if you have enough proof....in some states you can sue OM#1

I lost track, the coworker that started this all, not the ex lover from yrs past or the new guys.


----------



## nullrollz

the guy said:


> or sit back and let your wife take your kids.


I intend to retain a lawyer and file ASAP. Ideally before her. I'm meeting with one on Tuesday.


----------



## nullrollz

the guy said:


> Hell if you have enough proof....in some states you can sue OM#1
> 
> I lost track, the coworker that started this all, not the ex lover from yrs past or the new guys.


The specifics aren't important. There is an old law that is still around in MN that stipulates that I can sue both her and the OM for monetary damages if there was actual intercourse (defined as oral or vaginal). I have no proof of that. I've also heard it hasn't been enforced in decades.


----------



## nullrollz

MattMatt said:


> If you file she can put all the blame on you?
> 
> For answers on questions specific to your case and in your jurisdiction regarding divorce, seek qualified legal opinion and guidance.


MN is a no-fault state. To my understanding, unless there is some danger being posed to her or the children, who blames who isn't taken into consideration in my state.

I'm meeting with a lawyer Tuesday.


----------



## lenzi

the guy said:


> File 1st.
> Tells the judge you are in an unhealthy situation and need to make the changes to protect you and your child.
> 
> If she files 1st she can make you look like the bad guy.


I don't agree with this at all. 

The courts don't care who files first. They look at the facts of the case, they look at incomes, they look at assets, they look at who might be the better custodial parent based on things like who's been the primary caregiver, are there any drug or alcohol abuse issues, neglect, that sort of thing.

The judge doesn't give a rat's ass who files first. Either party can make the other look like the worst person on the face of the planet with a well worded affidavit. It just takes a skilled attorney. Not that this is the best way to go, but it happens.. all the time. And again, nothing to do with who files first, there is no advantage.

That much being said, there may be an advantage to striking first while the wife is so wrapped up in the affair that she may fold and do whatever it takes to get it over with, and maybe she'll agree to a settlement that is favorable to the Op. But that has nothing to do with him filing before she does.



nullrollz said:


> MN is a no-fault state. To my understanding, unless there is some danger being posed to her or the children, who blames who isn't taken into consideration in my state.


Exactly. I see you've already figured this out.


----------



## Nucking Futs

lenzi said:


> I don't agree with this at all.
> 
> The courts don't care who files first. They look at the facts of the case, they look at incomes, they look at assets, they look at who might be the better custodial parent based on things like who's been the primary caregiver, are there any drug or alcohol abuse issues, neglect, that sort of thing.
> 
> The judge doesn't give a rat's ass who files first. Either party can make the other look like the worst person on the face of the planet with a well worded affidavit. It just takes a skilled attorney. Not that this is the best way to go, but it happens.. all the time. And again, nothing to do with who files first, there is no advantage.
> 
> That much being said, there may be an advantage to striking first while the wife is so wrapped up in the affair that she may fold and do whatever it takes to get it over with, and maybe she'll agree to a settlement that is favorable to the Op. But that has nothing to do with him filing before she does.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I see you've already figured this out.


There is one other advantage. The person who files can dismiss it, the other person cannot. Not an issue in most divorces but in a case where the WS is evil the WS can play it almost all the way out then dismiss it, forcing the BS to start over at square one and possibly extending interim support. It could also be used in a state with a cutoff date for life time alimony, where a WS drags out a divorce until the last second then dismisses it to try to extend the length of the marriage. Can't say it would work, but don't trust judges enough to see through it either. Or care if they do see through it.


----------



## the guy

She is not wrapped up in an affair she is wrapped up in a life style....a great life style for a single guy looking for an easy lay.

@lenzi, I agree with you...I'm no phucking lawyer and it's real clear that other that have posted are also correct....hell I'm just the guy!

OP, get a lawyer and protect you and your kid. even I can admit that my arm chair legal advice is flawed.... 

Stay the course.....some of the greatest challenges in life bring the greatest rewards.


----------



## lenzi

the guy said:


> @lanzi, I agree with you...I'm no phucking lawyer
> 
> OP, get a lawyer and protect you and your kid. even I can admit that my arm chair legal advice is flawed....


Ok, thanks for your agreement but maybe then you oughta consider the advice you're giving out. Some might actually follow it.



Nucking Futs said:


> There is one other advantage. The person who files can dismiss it, the other person cannot.


True.


----------



## Chaparral

Check dadsdivorce.com to get more help and see if they have connections with any lawyers in your area.


----------



## the guy

Hell lenzi I not only agree with you but your right.

threadjack over.

The court system is tough...all the more reason why OP needs to be on top of his game to come out a head.


----------



## the guy

lenzi said:


> Ok, thanks for your agreement but maybe then you oughta consider the advice you're giving out. Some might actually follow it.
> 
> 
> 
> True.


Not as long as you stick around.

Promise you will never leave?


----------



## tom67

nullrollz said:


> I intend to retain a lawyer and file ASAP. Ideally before her. I'm meeting with one on Tuesday.


Sorry to hear about another man after the others.
Oh and for that special effect, serve her at work.


----------



## lenzi

the guy said:


> Not as long as you stick around.
> 
> Promise you will never leave?


That's not up to me. 

What if the moderators decide to ban me for derailing one too many threads?


----------



## nullrollz

tom67 said:


> Sorry to hear about another man after the others.
> Oh and for that special effect, serve her at work.


Not a terrible idea AT ALL. Hopefully in full view of the "first" OM


----------



## tom67

Grab her rings and pawn them.
If you have to settle later don't worry about it.


----------



## the guy

Having her served might be the best thing...maybe her lawyer can at least talk some sense into her.

I mean it's all fine a dandy to watch her dig her self into a hole but it will not do your very very young kids any good to be witness to their mom drift even further away.

As I regress maybe it would be in the best interest for the kids to have her served..an action that might get her to think twice about how she is behaving.


----------



## the guy

#4 might be hard to do since these kids have lost their mother.

How in the hell can a dad go have fun when an 18 month old is home with a drunk stoner most likely on her phone while the kids pick seeds out of her weed?


----------



## the guy

I'm old school when pot still had seeds


----------



## tom67

Insist on a drug test when it comes to court time.
You don't want her drugged up behind the wheel with your kids in the car.


----------



## nullrollz

the guy said:


> #4 might be hard to do since these kids have lost their mother.
> 
> How in the hell can a dad go have fun when an 18 month old is home with a drunk stoner most likely on her phone while the kids pick seeds out of her weed?


To clarify, I don't know how often she smokes pot. I know she does, and has in the past several times. I don't know any beyond that. She's also taken up smoking cigarettes, even though she has very serious asthma, and has been hospitalized once in the past and almost died due to cigarettes causing a very bad reaction with her asthma. Derp.


----------



## tom67

Null pot is stored in the fat cells not water soluble like coke and others that are out of your system after about 3 days.

So if she does pot on a regular basis a hair follicle test among others will test positive after at least a month if not longer.


----------



## the guy

Hey Null you didn't have to clarify sh1t with me I was were you are at when I was hitting 30.

I was lucky ...most aren't!

Just watch out.

There is an imbalance with your old lady...you said it your self in your 1st post.


----------



## the guy

nullrollz said:


> but her and him did not bond, and she said this also had a huge effect on the way she felt. My son never wanted her until he was 1-1.5 years old, I was the only one that could calm him down/soothe him.
> My daughter was born and my wife was able to breast feed (my son wouldn't latch), so she began to lose weight. My daughter and her bonded (my daughter and I also bonded), her and I were in a better place (still not great), and things were better for about a year. My daughter eventually became more independent, and in my opinion started showing a preference towards me, like my son had. This hit my wife pretty hard..


I just wanted to be more specific in were I was coming from!


----------



## nullrollz

the guy said:


> I just wanted to be more specific in were I was coming from!


To clarify my post, my daughter has begun to show a huge preference for me. Lately I think she's feeling the tension between her mother and I, and has been very needy at bedtime or sometimes wakes up at night. My daughter sometimes (often?) won't stop squirming/crying when my wife tries to soothe her. The second I take her she's pressed into my chest and almost immediately calm, and gets very upset when I try to lay her down in bed. Several nights I've had to let her sleep next to me in her playpen with me on the couch.


----------



## nullrollz

I've spoken with two lawyers. I've decided I'm going to retain one (the one that tdwal recommended to me via PM).

The other night the wife says to me "I'm going to X friend's house, her and her husband got into a fight and she needs me." (X being the toxic female friend I spoke of before). I checked the Verizon logs and she hadn't spoken to this friend in several hours. But she had just two minutes before that called a different female friend, one who is friends with this new guy she's been physical with (unknown extent). So at this point I expect she lied to me and ended up with this guy. She's also been snapchatting him.

I just got a text from her... not a direct quote:

"I'm still waiting for you to tell me you want to spend time with me.
Otherwise I'm going to continue going out with friends or going in the other room so I don't feel weird."

The only thing I want to say is "Maybe you should go to Carl's house? I bet he'd spend time with you, but likely only if you spread your legs for him." (Carl is the guy that I have evidence of a physical affair for). She's just playing games.

I don't think Carl is married or has a girlfriend. Just a ********* overall though.

Lawyer recommended I serve her after the holidays, which I agreed with. I'm taking the kids up north to visit my family for 4-5 days, wife won't be seeing them much at all likely.

My lawyer did say she thought my wife was suffering from post partum depression, and was likely the reason behind her new behavior. As I told my lawyer, things have already gone WAY too far for me to consider reconciliation, so at this point I'm going to gather some notes and retain the lawyer to move forward with divorce.

Just a minor update.


----------



## Nucking Futs

nullrollz said:


> I've spoken with two lawyers. I've decided I'm going to retain one (the one that tdwal recommended to me via PM).
> 
> The other night the wife says to me "I'm going to X friend's house, her and her husband got into a fight and she needs me." (X being the toxic female friend I spoke of before). I checked the Verizon logs and she hadn't spoken to this friend in several hours. But she had just two minutes before that called a different female friend, one who is friends with this new guy she's been physical with (unknown extent). So at this point I expect she lied to me and ended up with this guy. She's also been snapchatting him.
> 
> I just got a text from her... not a direct quote:
> 
> "I'm still waiting for you to tell me you want to spend time with me.
> Otherwise I'm going to continue going out with friends or going in the other room so I don't feel weird."
> 
> The only thing I want to say is "Maybe you should go to Carl's house? I bet he'd spend time with you, but likely only if you spread your legs for him." (Carl is the guy that I have evidence of a physical affair for). She's just playing games.
> 
> I don't think Carl is married or has a girlfriend. Just a ********* overall though.
> 
> Lawyer recommended I serve her after the holidays, which I agreed with. I'm taking the kids up north to visit my family for 4-5 days, wife won't be seeing them much at all likely.
> 
> My lawyer did say she thought my wife was suffering from post partum depression, and was likely the reason behind her new behavior. As I told my lawyer, things have already gone WAY too far for me to consider reconciliation, so at this point I'm going to gather some notes and retain the lawyer to move forward with divorce.
> 
> Just a minor update.


I'd have her served right after you leave with the kids. When she blows your cell up after getting served text her "you'll have some time to get used to not being part of the family." But I'm a d!ck that way.


----------



## the guy

I sounds like your WW just justified her unhealthy choice to be with someone else.

Something tells me the OM was actually watching your WW send the text.

At the end of the day your old lady had a choice ....fight for the marriage and deal with your hurt and stay home and face the consequences of the emotional distance between the 2 of you that she created.

In stead she decide to blame you for the emotional distance (that she created btw) and made the choice to go out while her marriage falls apart.

Its pretty clear to me any way, that your old lady doesn't really give a dam....again the only reason to send you that text is to releave her own guilt and show OM how terrible her husband is.

Sorry your marriage is coming to an end....your old lady may never understand it was her not you..I guess how else can she look in the mirror if she can't blame someone else for her unhealthy choices.


----------



## the guy

Ask your lawyer why you can't have her served on Christmas day.

I think it would make for a nice present, after all her actions make it look pretty clear this is exactly what she wants.


----------



## GusPolinski

nullrollz said:


> I've spoken with two lawyers. I've decided I'm going to retain one (the one that tdwal recommended to me via PM).
> 
> The other night the wife says to me "I'm going to X friend's house, her and her husband got into a fight and she needs me." (X being the toxic female friend I spoke of before). I checked the Verizon logs and she hadn't spoken to this friend in several hours. But she had just two minutes before that called a different female friend, one who is friends with this new guy she's been physical with (unknown extent). So at this point I expect she lied to me and ended up with this guy. She's also been snapchatting him.
> 
> I just got a text from her... not a direct quote:
> 
> *"I'm still waiting for you to tell me you want to spend time with me.
> Otherwise I'm going to continue going out with friends or going in the other room so I don't feel weird."*
> 
> The only thing I want to say is "Maybe you should go to Carl's house? I bet he'd spend time with you, but likely only if you spread your legs for him." (Carl is the guy that I have evidence of a physical affair for). She's just playing games.
> 
> I don't think Carl is married or has a girlfriend. Just a ********* overall though.
> 
> Lawyer recommended I serve her after the holidays, which I agreed with. I'm taking the kids up north to visit my family for 4-5 days, wife won't be seeing them much at all likely.
> 
> *My lawyer did say she thought my wife was suffering from post partum depression, and was likely the reason behind her new behavior.* As I told my lawyer, things have already gone WAY too far for me to consider reconciliation, so at this point I'm going to gather some notes and retain the lawyer to move forward with divorce.
> 
> Just a minor update.


The first part in bold is her way of saying that she wants you to do all of the heavy lifting required to get your marriage back on track. And all while she's out and about... and lying about who she's with. 

And as for the other part in bold, how old is your youngest child? I ask because... well...










Seriously... you might want to consider it.


----------



## PBear

Just as an FYI, she likely won't have to justify how she spends any money you give her for spousal or child support. Don't get your hopes up on that. Just get out, asap. 

C


----------



## chaos

Perhaps you should have responded with a short and brief message "No thanks. I don't want sloppy seconds from Carl". Not to be petty but to make it part of the log history of texts between the two of you.


----------



## nullrollz

GusPolinski said:


> The first part in bold is her way of saying that she wants you to do all of the heavy lifting required to get your marriage back on track. And all while she's out and about... and lying about who she's with.
> 
> And as for the other part in bold, how old is your youngest child? I ask because... well...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously... you might want to consider it.


My youngest is 15 months, and my oldest is almost 4. There are a lot of physical similarities between me and the kids, and also between my daughter and my mother/grandmother. People have said she's a spitting image of my grandmother and mother. In addition, things that are pretty unique to me (my oddly-placed double-cowlick and messed up fourth toe on each foot) my son also shares.


----------



## nullrollz

chaos said:


> Perhaps you should have responded with a short and brief message "No thanks. I don't want sloppy seconds from Carl". Not to be petty but to make it part of the log history of texts between the two of you.


I think I'm saving confronting her with the fact that I know about Carl as I hand her the papers.

Lawyer has advised me not to out her to her family and friends, and I think she's right. If anything it will just make the divorce/next 17 years much harder on me, as I know my wife would retaliate. If they ask me why I filed, however... that's a different story.


----------



## nullrollz

As an update, I've been thinking about things this past week, especially my wife's self-destructive tendencies and how little time she's spent with the kids, and I'm leaning towards asking for primary custody. The lawyer seemed to be prodding me in that direction, given the things I had told her about how often the wife was out, how often she is out drinking, etc.

The lawyer also recommended a "right of first refusal" clause, so that if wife wants to go out drinking she's required to ask me first if I can watch the kids, before dumping them off with a babysitter.

I'm starting to worry some about my financial situation. Lawyer said that my wife likely wouldn't get very much in spousal support, and whatever she did get would be very temporary. Child support is another matter, and is likely going to cost $500+ a month. That is unless my wife agrees to a settlement before we get to a judge. Either way, it's looking like it'll be a pretty tight few years for me, especially if I have to move out of our current place as part of the settlement (everything else I've looked at (just to know) has been an additional $400-$600 a month). The lawyer told me that they do take financial obligations into account for alimony, but not so much for child support. Basically an "If it puts you in the poor house, tough ****" kind of situation.

I'm just hoping the wife is willing to be civil and signs the papers with little fuss, as I'll be giving her most of the furniture (that I never wanted in the first place) and a bunch of other stuff.


----------



## the guy

The funny thing about financial situations is you can always rebuild your financial situation....your STBXW on the other hand ...I don't see her rebuilding her self any time soon.

I know a guy that got divorced, worked 24/7, *paid his CS*, lived in his truck,saw his kids when he could and when the youngest hit 18, this guy saved up enough money to move out of his truck, buy his 1st of many beach properties and retired with enough dough to start his retirement at 50 yrs old.


I say go for custody and avoid the child support.


----------



## MattMatt

Post Partum or Post Natal Depression after this length of time?

Well, that's possible, but it could be something more serious.

Perhaps edging toward what in the UK would be called Post Natal Psychosis? Impossible to say, however. 

You really do need to get her checked out by a professional.


----------



## chaos

the guy said:


> I say go for custody and avoid the child support.


Not a bad idea. Who is the primary caregiver anyway?


----------



## nullrollz

chaos said:


> Not a bad idea. Who is the primary caregiver anyway?


That depends on how you define primary caregiver. I'd say me, both in terms of amount of time spent and amount done to give care (which I would define as including cleaning house, cooking dinner, baths, etc.).

I could go on and on. I'll try simplify it:

1) she's lazy
2) she's lazy
3) she's lazy

She didn't bond with my son when he was a baby. I did. To this day it's obvious.

She bonded somewhat with my daughter, but again I bonded with her and more so. Again, it's obvious to this day.

She gets easily frustrated with them; I can't count the number of times she's stormed out saying "I give up!" or "I'm done!" or "You deal with it!" (this is on the rare occasion when I'm not the "first to respond" (I say that because I also believe in allowing a kid to learn to deal with it, especially when they're just whining)).

I put them to bed (tuck them in, etc.) 95% of nights. I make sure they get their vitamins, get some decent food (when I'm home; or unless it's a special night and I'll "treat" them to McDonalds, which they for some god-awful reason love). I'm the primary bath-giver. The list goes on. Hell, yesterday she didn't even bother changing them out of their pajamas from the night before, but she somehow had the energy to go sit at her friend's house (this friend runs a daycare). I suspect she did it so she could mostly ignore our kids while they played with the other kids.

I can count the number of times she cooks in a month on two or three fingers. Similar for how often she cleans. But she's happy to continually buy useless **** and let it pile up.

In the end, all you really have to do is look at our respective Facebook pages and count the number of photos and videos we post of the kids. Mine will outweigh her by 90%, easy. I have close to 100GB of photos and videos of these kids in only 4 years, and she has maybe a few hundred MB.

When it comes down to it: I'm with these kids EVERY SINGLE NIGHT taking care of them, excluding the nights that her and I go out together. She is gone 2-3 nights a week, if not more, in addition to her work schedule.


----------



## chaos

Then it would seem that it would be YOU whom the court would deem as the primary care giver. Why not petition for physical custody of the kids?


----------



## nullrollz

chaos said:


> Then it would seem that it would be YOU whom the court would deem as the primary care giver. Why not petition for physical custody of the kids?


Initially I wanted to be 100% fair for all parties involved, but I'm beginning to realize that she likely won't be fair or nice, so why the hell should I be?

I'm conflicted as to whether I should immediately go for primary physical custody and risk pissing her off and dragging this through court.

She's always told me that if I ever cheated on her, she'd go for full custody. Ironic, but in the end I won't stoop to that level. The real losers there are my kids.


----------



## chaos

Talk to your attorney about having the court order a hair strand drug test for you and your STBXWW. Not a guarantee but a parent who is a drug or alcohol abuser could be found unfit.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Please, read this http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...prepare-potential-divorce-custody-battle.html .


----------



## farside

i would make sure she doesn't smoke or bring this other behavior around your kids. I guess she smokes in front of the kids or you wouldn't know. Good luck man, and do whatever that lawyer tells you.




nullrollz said:


> To clarify, I don't know how often she smokes pot. I know she does, and has in the past several times. I don't know any beyond that. She's also taken up smoking cigarettes, even though she has very serious asthma, and has been hospitalized once in the past and almost died due to cigarettes causing a very bad reaction with her asthma. Derp.


----------



## BrockLanders

nullrollz said:


> Initially I wanted to be 100% fair for all parties involved, but I'm beginning to realize that she likely won't be fair or nice, so why the hell should I be?
> 
> I'm conflicted as to whether I should immediately go for primary physical custody and risk pissing her off and dragging this through court.
> 
> She's always told me that if I ever cheated on her, she'd go for full custody. Ironic, but in the end I won't stoop to that level. The real losers there are my kids.


You need to be 100% fair to your kids and that means not having a drunk call the shots. Ideally you'd both be able to split time and collaborate on decisions but that's not happening now. Go for full for now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Locke.Stratos

nullrollz said:


> Initially I wanted to be 100% fair for all parties involved


F*** that.


----------



## Dyokemm

nullrolz,

Your lawyer doesn't want you to expose because she wants to smoothly and quickly earn her money for your case....all lawyers say to not rock the boat for this reason.

But there are other considerations for outing her that your lawyer doesn't give two sh*ts about.

As long as her A's are hidden from everyone, she is free to spin a story painting you as a monster and the problem.

She will poison others against you, AND they will in turn interact with your kids as well over the next 17 years.

I don't know about you, but I would not want my kids being raised part time in an environment where I was continually bad mouthed and degraded because of a bunch of lies my WW spun to others to cover the real reason why the D happened.

In addition, hiding her A's allows your WW free reign to bring these POSOM's around your kids and her family without anyone being the wiser to who the h*ll these dirtbags really are.

Of course she might do it anyway, but I know in many families (like mine) a POS AP would NEVER be accepted around the the kids whose family he had helped to destroy.

Expose her cheating to everyone....make her own her sh*t.


----------



## farside

Dyokemm said:


> nullrolz,
> 
> Your lawyer doesn't want you to expose because she wants to smoothly and quickly earn her money for your case....all lawyers say to not rock the boat for this reason.
> 
> But there are other considerations for outing her that your lawyer doesn't give two sh*ts about.
> 
> As long as her A's are hidden from everyone, she is free to spin a story painting you as a monster and the problem.
> 
> She will poison others against you, AND they will in turn interact with your kids as well over the next 17 years.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I would not want my kids being raised part time in an environment where I was continually bad mouthed and degraded because of a bunch of lies my WW spun to others to cover the real reason why the D happened.
> 
> In addition, hiding her A's allows your WW free reign to bring these POSOM's around your kids and her family without anyone being the wiser to who the h*ll these dirtbags really are.
> 
> Of course she might do it anyway, but I know in many families (like mine) a POS AP would NEVER be accepted around the the kids whose family he had helped to destroy.
> 
> Expose her cheating to everyone....make her own her sh*t.


The lawyer knows best and there could be half a dozen good reason to keep that arrow in the quiver including keeping it for leverage. Divorce and custody litigation is a long game. It's chess not checkers.


----------



## nullrollz

tdwal said:


> You don't know this lawyer. She is has a plan and it is much more intricate than you think. She is rather ruthless. He needs to listen to her.


I only spent 30 minutes with her so far, but was very impressed by both her knowledge and bluntness. But she was also very down-to-earth. Also, any woman who can swear like that gets a +1 in my book.

I intend to retain her with my Christmas bonus... mostly so my STBXW can't get her hands on any of that money


----------



## nullrollz

Dyokemm said:


> nullrolz,
> 
> Your lawyer doesn't want you to expose because she wants to smoothly and quickly earn her money for your case....all lawyers say to not rock the boat for this reason.
> 
> But there are other considerations for outing her that your lawyer doesn't give two sh*ts about.
> 
> As long as her A's are hidden from everyone, she is free to spin a story painting you as a monster and the problem.
> 
> She will poison others against you, AND they will in turn interact with your kids as well over the next 17 years.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I would not want my kids being raised part time in an environment where I was continually bad mouthed and degraded because of a bunch of lies my WW spun to others to cover the real reason why the D happened.
> 
> In addition, hiding her A's allows your WW free reign to bring these POSOM's around your kids and her family without anyone being the wiser to who the h*ll these dirtbags really are.
> 
> Of course she might do it anyway, but I know in many families (like mine) a POS AP would NEVER be accepted around the the kids whose family he had helped to destroy.
> 
> Expose her cheating to everyone....make her own her sh*t.


I appreciate your opinion. I definitely don't want her ****ty boyfriends around my kids, and intend to add a clause to our divorce settlement to that effect (that I will have to follow as well, which is fine by me).

Trust me, I'd love nothing more than to out her to all of her family and friends as the cheating ***** she is. However, as somebody else mentioned I'm going to "keep that arrow in the quiver" for now. Besides, I'm quite sure those who are closest to her will ask me why I'm filing for divorce, and at that point I will tell them quite plainly. I am just not going to openly out her to all of her family and friends... yet.

I will, however, put her and the several guys she's ****ing around with on Cheaterville.


----------



## GusPolinski

nullrollz said:


> I only spent 30 minutes with her so far, but was very impressed by both her knowledge and bluntness. But she was also very down-to-earth. Also, any woman who can swear like that gets a +1 in my book.
> 
> I intend to retain her with my Christmas bonus... mostly so my STBXW can't get her hands on any of that money


Well, hopefully you're using direct deposit for your pay... and you've had it redirected to a new account that she can't access.


----------



## nullrollz

GusPolinski said:


> Well, hopefully you're using direct deposit for your pay... and that you've had it redirected to a new account that she can't access.


Yes, did that weeks ago.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

I'm glad you have a good lawyer!

Have you had a chance to look at that link I posted?

Best wishes


----------



## nullrollz

HobbesTheTiger said:


> I'm glad you have a good lawyer!
> 
> Have you had a chance to look at that link I posted?
> 
> Best wishes


Yup, I read through it once and have it sitting as an open tab for when I get enough time to take a more deep dive into it. Thanks!

EDIT: I'm planning to pick up a recorder to carry at all times. One that can be easily activated by hand to record in case I need to record her yelling at me or threatening me with something.

Also, I haven't had a drink in 3 weeks, and before that it had been like 2 months. I drink very rarely, so not drinking is not an issue at all. For her, however, as I've documented here and in a personal journal, it is an issue. I don't know if I'd go so far as to says he's always drunk, but I'd say at least 2-3 nights a week she's out drinking with a "female friend."


----------



## nullrollz

Update: doing some laundry, I found a pair of panties with what looks like a giant semen stain. That, or she was getting incredibly horny/wet at some point while wearing them. I'm inclined to believe the former.

Her and I haven't had sex in over a month (closer to two), and haven't had unprotected sex in 4+ months. I almost always wear a rubber from start to finish.

Update to the update:

She went out drinking last night, never came "home", and then texted me at 7am with something to the effect of "sorry, I forgot to tell you" that she and her "female friend" had decided to "pass out." I have the text screenshotted. Can hopefully use it as proof of how unreliable she is or something like that.


----------



## OldWolf57

bag the drawers for evidence, an buy a semen test kit.


----------



## nullrollz

OldWolf57 said:


> bag the drawers for evidence, an buy a semen test kit.


Any specific brand you'd recommend?


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

And store it in a safe location, where she can't get her hands on it to destroy it. It might be useful in lowering the amount of alimony etc.

If you can afford it, sent it to a lab to get it tested, that way, you'll have the results perfectly valid.

Have you talked to your lawyer about it?


----------



## nullrollz

tdwal said:


> MN doesn't care anything about the adultery, it won't make any difference with the divorce.
> 
> It could help with custody though.


That was my thought. Any idea/examples how it may help with custody? Questionable character?


----------



## OldWolf57

It's to piece together a picture of her lifestyle, to show the type of person and mother she is now.
Doc. all, as you are doing.

As for brands, I have no knowledge. But some OP's here have done it.


----------



## vellocet

nullrollz said:


> That was my thought. Any idea/examples how it may help with custody?


Lose the penis and grow a vagina. 

Seriously though, unless you can prove she is a drug addict or abuse the kids, she is the mother. If she wants custody and child support and doesn't agree to 50/50, she'll get it.

You are the father. You get screwed. Simple as that. 

So unless you got something really good on her of a criminal nature, or she agrees to custody to your liking, you will lose the fight. Questionable character isn't enough. Even being a adulteress wh0re is not enough to get custody. Has to be something criminal, or something that declares her mentally unfit.


----------



## GusPolinski

nullrollz said:


> Update: doing some laundry, I found a pair of panties with what looks like a giant semen stain. That, or she was getting incredibly horny/wet at some point while wearing them. I'm inclined to believe the former.
> 
> Her and I haven't had sex in over a month (closer to two), and haven't had unprotected sex in 4+ months. I almost always wear a rubber from start to finish.
> 
> Update to the update:
> 
> She went out drinking last night, never came "home", and then texted me at 7am with something to the effect of "sorry, I forgot to tell you" that she and her "female friend" had decided to "pass out." I have the text screenshotted. Can hopefully use it as proof of how unreliable she is or something like that.


Step #1 - Put the panties away in a plastic bag.

Step #2 - Get one of these...

Amazon.com - Checkmate Infidelity Test Kit


----------



## bigfoot

All of this inspector gadget private eye stuff is for the birds. how you win custody is you get you a bull dog lawyer, listen to their advice and follow it. 

A good lawyer will scout out your judge to find out what their pet peeves are and see if they can get evidence that will trigger that. They will also know the law and use that to their advantage. If playing detective is gonna help, then they will tell you that. Sometimes, getting a PI is better because then its their word and photos and videos vs your STBX instead of spouse against spouse. 

Going through her panties and testing them is going to make you seem like a psycho control freak unless your lawyer can figure out how to work that discovery to your advantage. Consider the case of Evander Holifield, former heavy weight boxing champ of the world. He was getting divorced, but had sex with his wife at some point during the divorce. That had legal ramifications. My point, don't follow your emotions or beliefs, get and follow the advice of a good lawyer.

Lastly, I know that it will trigger some folks, but some betrayed spouses are controlling or arrogant, or aloof, or workaholics, or otherwise bad spouses. No judge, outside of a fault divorce state, is gonna care that the cheating spouse continued to cheat when they were just trying to get out of a bad marriage. You are not gonna get custody because she sleeps around or blows you off, or whatever. If she can paint you as a controlling nit picky mean spirited man, she will sway the judge. I'm not saying bad marriages or bad spouses justify cheating, but I am saying that in a court of law, a judge could care less about the soap opera going on inside. 

To sum up: Hire bulldog lawyer, follow advice. Snoop if advised to do it, don't snoop if advised against it.


----------



## nullrollz

Update:

I'll try to keep this short, since the one I had written previously got blown away.

The drinking hasn't lessened. Still 3-4 times a week if not more, excluding the "non-drinking" days. She's also been leaving her car up-town at night some nights, and other nights drives home under the influence. I will definitely use this and the pot smoking against her.

She has no support system outside of her toxic female friends (one of whom is separating from her fiancee and the other is divorcing her husband; great friends!). Her parents just tell her to pray until it gets better. More ammo?

She's now threatening me with $1019 a month child support. A day or two later, she added threats of spousal support "in addition to child support."

I found out she's fudging her income numbers really hard. I'm keeping that as another arrow in my quiver. She's using my full gross income and her "grossly underestimated net income, minus all side-business income" to plug into the calculator. I'm talking 1/3-1/4 of what she actually makes. I saw a recent paystub that she left laying around and was surprised to find she was making more than double what I had expected/was aware of! I naturally copied the paystub for my records. By my estimate/napkin math, she makes close to what I do.

When I plugged in more accurate numbers, at 50/50 joint custody, the numbers were closer to $300 I'd have to pay her. $1000 a month in support would destroy any chances I have at a comfortable living, $300 is much better.

I spoke with the lawyer again. She sent some paperwork which I've almost finished filling out, and I will submit them asap this week. I hope to have her served next week. I'm going to push for primary custody for myself, since I am and have always been the primary caregiver for both children, in addition to the one that is there for them when they're upset/won't sleep/etc. I cook them meals, bathe them, play with them, teach them, etc. She does that stuff extremely rarely, if at all. She's often too busy drinking or shopping or just being lazy to spend time with her kids.

Example: I went up north for christmas, spent 5 days, had the kids with me (I told her a month before I was taking them and she said it was fine). She supposedly missed them a lot. WHen I got home Sunday, she wasn't even there. Two hours later she strolls in having just had sushi with a friend. Yup, instead of wanting to see her kids she was out with a friend(s). Then she spent the next two days doing her own thing/not seeing them. On the third day, she spent a couple hours with them (and by that I mean she ignored them/let them play on their own with minimal interaction) and then passed them off to me so she could go shopping (she was gone the rest of the day).

She has also been asking me more frequently to move out, and has stopped paying what she agreed to pay (daycare and her student loans, totaling about $600 a month). Lawyer advised me to just pay it for now.

I have no intention of leaving my home unless ordered by a judge or agreed upon in the settlement. Mostly I've been ignoring her when she says something, but we get along well enough when interacting together with the kids. I am looking for places, as it's likely I'll end up moving out, but will wait for the lawyer's advice on that.

That's the update.

TL;DR: STBXW is (still) a ***** and is still lazy and drinking a lot. Still a ****.


----------



## Chaparral

Why would you be paying her student loans?


----------



## Nucking Futs

nullrollz said:


> Update:
> 
> I'll try to keep this short, since the one I had written previously got blown away.
> 
> The drinking hasn't lessened. Still 3-4 times a week if not more, excluding the "non-drinking" days. She's also been leaving her car up-town at night some nights, and other nights drives home under the influence. I will definitely use this and the pot smoking against her.
> 
> She has no support system outside of her toxic female friends (one of whom is separating from her fiancee and the other is divorcing her husband; great friends!). Her parents just tell her to pray until it gets better. More ammo?
> 
> She's now threatening me with $1019 a month child support. A day or two later, she added threats of spousal support "in addition to child support."
> 
> I found out she's fudging her income numbers really hard. I'm keeping that as another arrow in my quiver. She's using my full gross income and her "grossly underestimated net income, minus all side-business income" to plug into the calculator. I'm talking 1/3-1/4 of what she actually makes. I saw a recent paystub that she left laying around and was surprised to find she was making more than double what I had expected/was aware of! I naturally copied the paystub for my records. By my estimate/napkin math, she makes close to what I do.
> 
> When I plugged in more accurate numbers, at 50/50 joint custody, the numbers were closer to $300 I'd have to pay her. $1000 a month in support would destroy any chances I have at a comfortable living, $300 is much better.
> 
> I spoke with the lawyer again. She sent some paperwork which I've almost finished filling out, and I will submit them asap this week. I hope to have her served next week. I'm going to push for primary custody for myself, since I am and have always been the primary caregiver for both children, in addition to the one that is there for them when they're upset/won't sleep/etc. I cook them meals, bathe them, play with them, teach them, etc. She does that stuff extremely rarely, if at all. She's often too busy drinking or shopping or just being lazy to spend time with her kids.
> 
> Example: I went up north for christmas, spent 5 days, had the kids with me (I told her a month before I was taking them and she said it was fine). She supposedly missed them a lot. WHen I got home Sunday, she wasn't even there. Two hours later she strolls in having just had sushi with a friend. Yup, instead of wanting to see her kids she was out with a friend(s). Then she spent the next two days doing her own thing/not seeing them. On the third day, she spent a couple hours with them (and by that I mean she ignored them/let them play on their own with minimal interaction) and then passed them off to me so she could go shopping (she was gone the rest of the day).
> 
> She has also been asking me more frequently to move out, and has stopped paying what she agreed to pay (daycare and her student loans, totaling about $600 a month). Lawyer advised me to just pay it for now.
> 
> I have no intention of leaving my home unless ordered by a judge or agreed upon in the settlement. Mostly I've been ignoring her when she says something, but we get along well enough when interacting together with the kids. I am looking for places, as it's likely I'll end up moving out, but will wait for the lawyer's advice on that.
> 
> That's the update.
> 
> TL;DR: STBXW is (still) a ***** and is still lazy and drinking a lot. Still a ****.


In light of the part in red, why do you assume the part in blue?


----------



## GusPolinski

Nucking Futs said:


> In light of the part in red, why do you assume the part in blue?


Word. Let *her* move the f*ck out.


----------



## Dyokemm

I agree with the others...she should move out since she chose to have the affairs and leave the M.

Is she still spinning lies about you and badmouthing you to her family?

I know you are holding off on exposure for now, but I hope you are saving all of the evidence for a post D blast to set the record straight with her friends and family....hopefully that will prevent or reduce the likelihood of your children being exposed to an environment where you are painted as a monster and horrible person responsible for destroying the family.

I hope you had those panties semen tested to add to the evidence pile also.


----------



## MattMatt

This might be getting close to fraud on her part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

MattMatt said:


> This might be getting close to fraud on her part.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would agree with this if you changed the "might be getting close to" part to "is". Is she lying to her lawyer?


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> I would agree with this if you changed the "might be getting close to" part to "is". Is she lying to her lawyer?


:iagree:
Keep it simple you request her w2 and you bring yours.


----------



## Nucking Futs

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> Keep it simple you request her w2 and you bring yours.


Tax returns too, see if she has the balls to lie to the IRS.


----------



## Roselyn

Student loans are the individual's responsibility. Do not pay them if your wife is skipping on payments. It's her head on the tray not yours.


----------



## Squeakr

Roselyn said:


> Student loans are the individual's responsibility. Do not pay them if your wife is skipping on payments. It's her head on the tray not yours.


Actually depending on the state, if they were debts incurred during the marriage then they can possibly be considered marital debt, even though they are in her the other's name solely. Until it is decided in court as to division of debt, it could be considered jointly shared, especially if it resulted in increased marital worth due to the training/ education received.


----------



## Chaparral

I expect a lot of her income is tip money.


----------



## nullrollz

Chaparral said:


> Why would you be paying her student loans?


Because I have been for months before the separation and the lawyer advised me to keep doing so.


----------



## nullrollz

Nucking Futs said:


> In light of the part in red, why do you assume the part in blue?


Sorry, I should have clarified (and I did in the original message that got deleted due to an invalid token, FFS)...

I've told her I have no intention of moving out of MY home until either a) ordered by a judge or b) as part of any settlement. I was only looking to line something up in the event that I did need to move out.

Last night she informed me that she's moving in with a friend, and on "her days" she will come HERE to watch the kids, stay here that night, and then when it's "my days" she will leave back to her friend's house. The kids will stay HERE 24/7, and since I have nowhere else to go stay, they will essentially be with ME 24/7 as well (minus time spent at work).

She says this will continue until her friend's house sells, which considering it's winter and a small town isn't like to happen soon.

I'm thinking this will be a positive for me, both in terms of not seeing her as much and also making me look more like the primary caregiver, since I didn't leave my home/kids and refused to. Thoughts?


----------



## nullrollz

Chaparral said:


> I expect a lot of her income is tip money.


Yes. 75% of her income is tip money. To my understanding it, and from what the lawyer told me, it's still counted as income. FYI, the way tips are paid out by this company are electronically, they are NOT allowed to take cash/chips as tips.

She claims she makes x a month, but a little paper napkin math shows that x she claims is actually only 40% of what her YTD shows on the paystub that I have.

And she doesn't even include the income from the side business, which isn't anything to shake a stick at. Lawyer said this was a good thing for me, and that we would subpoena the financial records if she doesn't provide them. I have enough to prove that she's grossly underestimating it.

One concern I have is that since she's part time, the court may look favorably upon her since her hours aren't guaranteed like mine. Thoughts?


----------



## MattMatt

nullrollz said:


> Sorry, I should have clarified (and I did in the original message that got deleted due to an invalid token, FFS)...
> 
> I've told her I have no intention of moving out of MY home until either a) ordered by a judge or b) as part of any settlement. I was only looking to line something up in the event that I did need to move out.
> 
> Last night she informed me that she's moving in with a friend, and on "her days" she will come HERE to watch the kids, stay here that night, and then when it's "my days" she will leave back to her friend's house. She says this will continue until her friend's house sells, which considering it's winter and a small town isn't like to happen soon.
> 
> I'm thinking this will be a positive for me, both in terms of not seeing her as much and also making me look more like the primary caregiver, since I didn't leave my home/kids and refused to. Thoughts?


Sounds like a trick. Should you be out buying milk or whatever she gets a friend to change the locks and leaves you out in the cold. Literally.


----------



## nullrollz

Nucking Futs said:


> I would agree with this if you changed the "might be getting close to" part to "is". Is she lying to her lawyer?


Unsure. I only know her lawyer's name, and I have no idea how often she's in contact with him or if she is at all.


----------



## nullrollz

MattMatt said:


> Sounds like a trick. Should you be out buying milk or whatever she gets a friend to change the locks and leaves you out in the cold. Literally.


Fortunately our townhome/association handy-man/groundskeeper lives LITERALLY next door to me. I wouldn't be against calling the cops, either.


----------



## MattMatt

nullrollz said:


> Fortunately our townhome/association handy-man/groundskeeper lives LITERALLY next door to me. I wouldn't be against calling the cops, either.


Still, it will pay to be very careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

MattMatt said:


> Still, it will pay to be very careful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep. Var in your pocket any time you might have contact with her.


----------



## nullrollz

Well, she's already gone back on her word. I agreed to her proposal that she watch the kids here on her days, and then she goes to her friends house on my days. Which means the kids would be at home (minus daycare on days she works as well) and I'd be home with them when not at work, even on her days.

Today was her day and she had the kids at daycare for several hours while she was off doing who-knows-what, and then she brought the kids to her friend's house, who also runs a daycare and has kids. Then, still her day, she asks me to watch them so her and her friend can "go look at houses." Sure, no problem.

Later I confronted (non-aggressively, don't want to make things worse until she's served, hopefully next week) her about bringing the kids over there and she listed 3 shallow reasons:

1) she's depressed in my home (I no longer consider it her home)
2) she has a lot of work to do and needs to start moving (can't come fast enough)
3) the kids have playmates there

I read #3 as: "the kids have playmates there... so I can ignore them and go about doing my own thing like texting my boyfriends!"

I told her we agreed she'd watch them HERE, at my home, and she said via text "well I'll just bring them to [friends] house anyways tomorrow."

On top of that, part of our agreement was that if I needed to run an errand she would come HERE, to my home, to watch them while I ran out if I couldn't bring them. She specifically mentioned "on nights you go to the gym" (5 days a week! down 15 pounds already!). Well, two days later she went back on that and the only way I was able to go to the gym was to bring the kids over there and pick them up after I was finished.

Oh, one last thing. We alternate Mondays (currently) per verbal agreement a month+ ago, as she has a sales event every other Monday. She never came here Monday night after work so I figured it was my night and that she had a sales event. Nope, turns out she was out with one of the OM at an event he runs, and was dumb enough to post about it on Facebook. And, tomorrow, also her day, she's ditching them on me in the evening to go out with friends. That will make 3 days in a row, that are her days, where she barely spent any time with her children.

(side note: we have 95% of our 'conversations' via text now, so I have screenshots of all of it)

(side note 2: 'visitation' agreement is this: she gets tue/wed/thu and I get fri/sat/sun, alternating mon)


----------



## GusPolinski

nullrollz said:


> Well, she's already gone back on her word. I agreed to her proposal that she watch the kids here on her days, and then she goes to her friends house on my days. Which means the kids would be at home (minus daycare on days she works as well) and I'd be home with them when not at work, even on her days.
> 
> Today was her day and she had the kids at daycare for several hours while she was off doing who-knows-what, and then she brought the kids to her friend's house, who also runs a daycare and has kids. Then, still her day, she asks me to watch them so her and her friend can "go look at houses." Sure, no problem.
> 
> Later I confronted (non-aggressively, don't want to make things worse until she's served, hopefully next week) her about bringing the kids over there and she listed 3 shallow reasons:
> 
> 1) she's depressed in my home (I no longer consider it her home)
> 2) she has a lot of work to do and needs to start moving (can't come fast enough)
> 3) the kids have playmates there
> 
> I read #3 as: "the kids have playmates there... so I can ignore them and go about doing my own thing like texting my boyfriends!"
> 
> I told her we agreed she'd watch them HERE, at my home, and she said via text "well I'll just bring them to [friends] house anyways tomorrow."
> 
> On top of that, part of our agreement was that if I needed to run an errand she would come HERE, to my home, to watch them while I ran out if I couldn't bring them. She specifically mentioned "on nights you go to the gym" (5 days a week! down 15 pounds already!). Well, two days later she went back on that and the only way I was able to go to the gym was to bring the kids over there and pick them up after I was finished.
> 
> Oh, one last thing. We alternate Mondays (currently) per verbal agreement a month+ ago, as she has a sales event every other Monday. *She never came here Monday night after work so I figured it was my night and that she had a sales event. Nope, turns out she was out with one of the OM at an event he runs, and was dumb enough to post about it on Facebook.* And, tomorrow, also her day, she's ditching them on me in the evening to go out with friends. That will make 3 days in a row, that are her days, where she barely spent any time with her children.
> 
> (side note: we have 95% of our 'conversations' via text now, so I have screenshots of all of it)
> 
> (side note 2: 'visitation' agreement is this: she gets tue/wed/thu and I get fri/sat/sun, alternating mon)


"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

- Napoleon Bonaparte

Anyway, it might not do you any good, but I hope you took a screenshot of that.

And what kind of phone do you use? There are easier ways than screenshots to keep track of your texts. If your lawyer prefers the screenshots, though, stick w/ those.


----------



## Dyokemm

null,

She is very c*cky and confident right now...to the point of arrogance.

She thinks she is winning this D and fully expects to get everything she wants.

Just keep documenting everything for your lawyer and collecting evidence for the post D exposure blast.

I love to read about WS like your wife who are riding high thinking they are in control and then watch their plans and situation completely collapse in ruin...a perfect example is Blacksmith's WW.


----------



## G.J.

nullrollz said:


> Well, she's already gone back on her word. I agreed to her proposal that she watch the kids here on her days, and then she goes to her friends house on my days. Which means the kids would be at home (minus daycare on days she works as well) and I'd be home with them when not at work, even on her days.
> 
> Today was her day and she had the kids at daycare for several hours while she was off doing who-knows-what, and then she brought the kids to her friend's house, who also runs a daycare and has kids. Then, still her day, she asks me to watch them so her and her friend can "go look at houses." Sure, no problem.
> 
> Later I confronted (non-aggressively, don't want to make things worse until she's served, hopefully next week) her about bringing the kids over there and she listed 3 shallow reasons:
> 
> 1) she's depressed in my home (I no longer consider it her home)
> 2) she has a lot of work to do and needs to start moving (can't come fast enough)
> 3) the kids have playmates there
> 
> I read #3 as: "the kids have playmates there... so I can ignore them and go about doing my own thing like texting my boyfriends!"
> 
> I told her we agreed she'd watch them HERE, at my home, and she said via text "well I'll just bring them to [friends] house anyways tomorrow."
> 
> On top of that, part of our agreement was that if I needed to run an errand she would come HERE, to my home, to watch them while I ran out if I couldn't bring them. She specifically mentioned "on nights you go to the gym" (5 days a week! down 15 pounds already!). Well, two days later she went back on that and the only way I was able to go to the gym was to bring the kids over there and pick them up after I was finished.
> 
> Oh, one last thing. We alternate Mondays (currently) per verbal agreement a month+ ago, as she has a sales event every other Monday. She never came here Monday night after work so I figured it was my night and that she had a sales event. Nope, turns out she was out with one of the OM at an event he runs, and was dumb enough to post about it on Facebook. And, tomorrow, also her day, she's ditching them on me in the evening to go out with friends. That will make 3 days in a row, that are her days, where she barely spent any time with her children.
> 
> (side note: we have 95% of our 'conversations' via text now, so I have screenshots of all of it)
> 
> (side note 2: 'visitation' agreement is this: she gets tue/wed/thu and I get fri/sat/sun, alternating mon)


As others have said
Her doing this childish behaviour and reverting back to her teens will not help her in the long run so all you have to do is document,document,document

where ever possible help her out even more and try to get corroboration on anything you can

Say things like I'm glad you don't ....... and put ideas in her head

Be cunning encourage her to do crappy stuff 

It will suck doing stuff but it will make her more sure of her self and hopefully pay dividends for you


----------



## nullrollz

GusPolinski said:


> "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
> 
> - Napoleon Bonaparte
> 
> Anyway, it might not do you any good, but I hope you took a screenshot of that.
> 
> And what kind of phone do you use? There are easier ways than screenshots to keep track of your texts. If your lawyer prefers the screenshots, though, stick w/ those.


Solid quote, adding that to my list of favorites.

I use Android, and have all the texts saved (and backed up) AND screenshott'ed (and backed up). No worries there. Lawyer hasn't mentioned either way what she prefers, so I keep both.

EDIT: If you're referring to the FB part that you bolded, yes I definitely screenshotted it.


----------



## nullrollz

G.J. said:


> As others have said
> Her doing this childish behaviour and reverting back to her teens will not help her in the long run so all you have to do is document,document,document
> 
> where ever possible help her out even more and try to get corroboration on anything you can
> 
> Say things like I'm glad you don't ....... and put ideas in her head
> 
> Be cunning encourage her to do crappy stuff
> 
> It will suck doing stuff but it will make her more sure of her self and hopefully pay dividends for you


Any tips on what I should be documenting and how? So far I kind of treat it like a journal... x happened today, she did y, she was gone for z hours, she didn't get back until 2am (and I document whether I think she drove home drunk or left her car uptown, etc.). I document when she lies to me to go out with boyfriends, and I especially document when she skips out on spending time with her kids.


----------



## GusPolinski

nullrollz said:


> Any tips on what I should be documenting and how? So far I kind of treat it like a journal... x happened today, she did y, she was gone for z hours, she didn't get back until 2am (and I document whether I think she drove home drunk or left her car uptown, etc.). I document when she lies to me to go out with boyfriends, and I especially document when she skips out on spending time with her kids.


Sounds pretty solid.


----------



## GusPolinski

nullrollz said:


> Solid quote, adding that to my list of favorites.
> 
> I use Android, and have all the texts saved (and backed up) AND screenshott'ed (and backed up). No worries there. Lawyer hasn't mentioned either way what she prefers, so I keep both.
> 
> EDIT: If you're referring to the FB part that you bolded, yes I definitely screenshotted it.


Nice!


----------



## nullrollz

Hey folks, wanted to drop a quick update here. I did retain an attorney a year ago, who promptly told me not to post on here any more.

I'm gonna try and keep this short and sweet, leaving out some details. I'm happy to share more if asked.

Tuesday of this week I was officially divorced from the lying, conniving *****. It was a long fight, and she attempted to use my children as a paycheck and rake me over the coals, but in the end ultimately failed. I will be in under a good chunk of debt for the next 3-5 years, but that's at least something I have control over.

In the end, and most importantly, she finally agreed to 50/50 joint custody, with both kids remaining in school/daycare where they have been (as if she hadn't destabilized their lives enough, she wanted to pull them out of their daycare/school in an attempt to increase parenting time for herself to get more child support).

Financially, because of all her monumental ****-ups, lying to the court and county, mis-representing (or omitting) income details, how much welfare she's on, and her being willfully underemployed (taking volunatry pay-cuts/job changes/shift changes/hours changes to the tune of reducing her income by 75%), instead of the $1000+ a month in child suporrt she was expecting, she only gets $50. FIFTY. The look on her face was priceless, and I will carry it with me and think of it whenever I am feeling down, or if I ever need a reminder that I shouldn't ever marry again.

Most importantly, though, I was able to position my kids to be able to have a chance to succeed. She is, by law, not allowed to pull them out of what they know (and they know and LOVE my daycare lady).

As for me... I'm doing great. Doing awesome at work (referred to as a "critical engineer"), and awesome personally. I've lost 105 pounds to date (which includes packing on a considerable amount of muscle; for anybody who cares, here's a 1-year difference pic: http://imgur.com/VyTLSXv (note that I've lost another ~15lbs since this pic was taken)) (I've dropped from a size 42/44 pant to 30/31, and an XL/XXL shirt to a S/M), feel great and healthy.

Just wanted to update all you folks who helped me out a lot in the beginning, and especially those who gave me a kick in the ass and essentially told me stop being so whiney. I protected my kids and myself from your stereotypical gold digging, divorce-system-abusing person.

(To calrify, I don't think all women are like that, but my view is definitely now jaded permanently)


----------



## imjustwatching

MAN i can't tell you how much i love happy ending stories! good for you! you absolutely deserve better then her and with the divorce results plus the weight lost you are a true winner my friend.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

nullrollz said:


> Hey folks, wanted to drop a quick update here. I did retain an attorney a year ago, who promptly told me not to post on here any more.
> 
> I'm gonna try and keep this short and sweet, leaving out some details. I'm happy to share more if asked.
> 
> Tuesday of this week I was officially divorced from the lying, conniving *****. It was a long fight, and she attempted to use my children as a paycheck and rake me over the coals, but in the end ultimately failed. I will be in under a good chunk of debt for the next 3-5 years, but that's at least something I have control over.
> 
> In the end, and most importantly, she finally agreed to 50/50 joint custody, with both kids remaining in school/daycare where they have been (as if she hadn't destabilized their lives enough, she wanted to pull them out of their daycare/school in an attempt to increase parenting time for herself to get more child support).
> 
> Financially, because of all her monumental ****-ups, lying to the court and county, mis-representing (or omitting) income details, how much welfare she's on, and her being willfully underemployed (taking volunatry pay-cuts/job changes/shift changes/hours changes to the tune of reducing her income by 75%), instead of the $1000+ a month in child suporrt she was expecting, she only gets $50. FIFTY. The look on her face was priceless, and I will carry it with me and think of it whenever I am feeling down, or if I ever need a reminder that I shouldn't ever marry again.
> 
> Most importantly, though, I was able to position my kids to be able to have a chance to succeed. She is, by law, not allowed to pull them out of what they know (and they know and LOVE my daycare lady).
> 
> As for me... I'm doing great. Doing awesome at work (referred to as a "critical engineer"), and awesome personally. I've lost 105 pounds to date (which includes packing on a considerable amount of muscle; for anybody who cares, here's a 1-year difference pic: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (note that I've lost another ~15lbs since this pic was taken)) (I've dropped from a size 42/44 pant to 30/31, and an XL/XXL shirt to a S/M), feel great and healthy.
> 
> Just wanted to update all you folks who helped me out a lot in the beginning, and especially those who gave me a kick in the ass and essentially told me stop being so whiney. I protected my kids and myself from your stereotypical gold digging, divorce-system-abusing person.
> 
> (To calrify, I don't think all women are like that, but my view is definitely now jaded permanently)


Wow, welcome to the $50 club. Also, looks like your lawyer gave you awesome advice. Yes, even if we didn't get updates for a year.


----------



## TAMAT

Nutrollz,

Congratulations on the weight loss, not an easy task, you've also lost 100+ pounds of cheating wife, which is sorta like getting a tumor removed.

Tamat


----------



## G.J.

nullrollz said:


> Hey folks, wanted to drop a quick update here. I did retain an attorney a year ago, who promptly told me not to post on here any more.
> 
> I'm gonna try and keep this short and sweet, leaving out some details. I'm happy to share more if asked.
> 
> Tuesday of this week I was officially divorced from the lying, conniving *****. It was a long fight, and she attempted to use my children as a paycheck and rake me over the coals, but in the end ultimately failed. I will be in under a good chunk of debt for the next 3-5 years, but that's at least something I have control over.
> 
> In the end, and most importantly, she finally agreed to 50/50 joint custody, with both kids remaining in school/daycare where they have been (as if she hadn't destabilized their lives enough, she wanted to pull them out of their daycare/school in an attempt to increase parenting time for herself to get more child support).
> 
> Financially, because of all her monumental ****-ups, lying to the court and county, mis-representing (or omitting) income details, how much welfare she's on, and her being willfully underemployed (taking volunatry pay-cuts/job changes/shift changes/hours changes to the tune of reducing her income by 75%), instead of the $1000+ a month in child suporrt she was expecting, she only gets $50. FIFTY. The look on her face was priceless, and I will carry it with me and think of it whenever I am feeling down, or if I ever need a reminder that I shouldn't ever marry again.
> 
> Most importantly, though, I was able to position my kids to be able to have a chance to succeed. She is, by law, not allowed to pull them out of what they know (and they know and LOVE my daycare lady).
> 
> As for me... I'm doing great. Doing awesome at work (referred to as a "critical engineer"), and awesome personally. I've lost 105 pounds to date (which includes packing on a considerable amount of muscle; for anybody who cares, here's a 1-year difference pic: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (note that I've lost another ~15lbs since this pic was taken)) (I've dropped from a size 42/44 pant to 30/31, and an XL/XXL shirt to a S/M), feel great and healthy.
> 
> Just wanted to update all you folks who helped me out a lot in the beginning, and especially those who gave me a kick in the ass and essentially told me stop being so whiney. I protected my kids and myself from your stereotypical gold digging, divorce-system-abusing person.
> 
> (To calrify, I don't think all women are like that, but my view is definitely now jaded permanently)


WELL DONE MY MAN 

IF I was a chick id fancy you:x

Did you gym it or just diet ?


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## nullrollz

TAMAT said:


> Congratulations on the weight loss, not an easy task, you've also lost 100+ pounds of cheating wife, which is sorta like getting a tumor removed.


Thanks! Actually, I weigh less than her now. She's in the low-to-mid 200's yet, and still chowing down on Wendy's/McD's multiple times a week.

She had a post on FB some time ago (she doesn't realize my friends can see it) lamenting a recent break-up from a guy who didn't want to date her because of her size. I laughed for days.


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## nullrollz

G.J. said:


> WELL DONE MY MAN
> 
> IF I was a chick id fancy you:x
> 
> Did you gym it or just diet ?


Lol, thanks!

When I first started I read somehwere: "Abs are made in the kitchen." I'd say the diet is 70-80% the reason for my success. I did the ketogenic diet (low carb, http://www.reddit.com/r/keto if you want to check it out) and the pounds were melting away, 10-20lbs a month for the first few months.

The rest was 4-days a week in teh gym. It was not uncommon for me to be in there at 2am on nights I didn't have the kids.


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## naiveonedave

just curious, did you ever prove PA occurring prior to separation?


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## TAMAT

Nutrollz,

So not only did you lose weight but you magically transferred it to your exW some kind of karmic calorie re-balancing. 

Perhaps after everything is finial you can send her a gift card to McDs.

Tamat


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## nullrollz

naiveonedave said:


> just curious, did you ever prove PA occurring prior to separation?


Define prove. I found a couple empty condom wrappers, found a pair of panties with semen stains, and have screenshots of conversations showing definite PA with intent for further PA.

So, yeah, I'd say I have proof. *shrug*

I've since found better, and with a combination of vasectomy and zero intent to every marry again, I'd say I'm good.


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## nullrollz

TAMAT said:


> Perhaps after everything is finial you can send her a gift card to McDs.


Gawd, this is an excellent idea. Sadly, I don't think it would hit home for her.


----------



## imjustwatching

nullrollz said:


> I laughed for days.


HAHAHA Man you should date some hot skinny girl that will drive her CRAZY .


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## naiveonedave

nullrollz said:


> Define prove. I found a couple empty condom wrappers, found a pair of panties with semen stains, and have screenshots of conversations showing definite PA with intent for further PA.
> 
> So, yeah, I'd say I have proof. *shrug*
> 
> I've since found better, and with a combination of vasectomy and zero intent to every marry again, I'd say I'm good.


thanks for the response. It wasn't clear to me in the thread. That made it much easier than some who are forced to waffle because they don't have truth. Do her parents know what proof you have and if not, are you going to tell them?


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## nullrollz

naiveonedave said:


> thanks for the response. It wasn't clear to me in the thread. That made it much easier than some who are forced to waffle because they don't have truth. Do her parents know what proof you have and if not, are you going to tell them?


They know some of it. Things between her parents and myself are cordial, but I never speak to them. They're actively filling her head with a bunch of **** about child support and to take me for all I'm worth, etc., so I don't bother. They rarely see their own grandkids, so they're a non-issue really. Hell, her dad lives 5 blocks away from her and rarely sees the kids. My parents live 6 hours away an see my kids more.

If they ask, I'll tell them, otherwise I wasn't going to bother. Taking the high road.


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## naiveonedave

I was hopeful her parents would actually try to get your exW head out of you know where. But alas, they are really no different than their daughter. Unfortunate for your kids, but it is what it is. Thanks for sharing your story, good luck.


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## dash74

nullrollz said:


> Hey folks, wanted to drop a quick update here. I did retain an attorney a year ago, who promptly told me not to post on here any more.
> 
> I'm gonna try and keep this short and sweet, leaving out some details. I'm happy to share more if asked.
> 
> Tuesday of this week I was officially divorced from the lying, conniving *****. It was a long fight, and she attempted to use my children as a paycheck and rake me over the coals, but in the end ultimately failed. I will be in under a good chunk of debt for the next 3-5 years, but that's at least something I have control over.
> 
> In the end, and most importantly, she finally agreed to 50/50 joint custody, with both kids remaining in school/daycare where they have been (as if she hadn't destabilized their lives enough, she wanted to pull them out of their daycare/school in an attempt to increase parenting time for herself to get more child support).
> 
> Financially, because of all her monumental ****-ups, lying to the court and county, mis-representing (or omitting) income details, how much welfare she's on, and her being willfully underemployed (taking volunatry pay-cuts/job changes/shift changes/hours changes to the tune of reducing her income by 75%), instead of the $1000+ a month in child suporrt she was expecting, she only gets $50. FIFTY. The look on her face was priceless, and I will carry it with me and think of it whenever I am feeling down, or if I ever need a reminder that I shouldn't ever marry again.
> 
> Most importantly, though, I was able to position my kids to be able to have a chance to succeed. She is, by law, not allowed to pull them out of what they know (and they know and LOVE my daycare lady).
> 
> As for me... I'm doing great. Doing awesome at work (referred to as a "critical engineer"), and awesome personally. I've lost 105 pounds to date (which includes packing on a considerable amount of muscle; for anybody who cares, here's a 1-year difference pic: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (note that I've lost another ~15lbs since this pic was taken)) (I've dropped from a size 42/44 pant to 30/31, and an XL/XXL shirt to a S/M), feel great and healthy.
> 
> Just wanted to update all you folks who helped me out a lot in the beginning, and especially those who gave me a kick in the ass and essentially told me stop being so whiney. I protected my kids and myself from your stereotypical gold digging, divorce-system-abusing person.
> 
> (To calrify, I don't think all women are like that, but my view is definitely now jaded permanently)



I think I seen you post on reddit with hax the 50 stuck out, hat tip sir


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## nullrollz

dash74 said:


> I think I seen you post on reddit with hax the 50 stuck out, hat tip sir


Indeed that was I. MGTOW?


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## Satya

Great update, and your weight loss progress is amazing. Well done!


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## farsidejunky

nullrollz said:


> Hey folks, wanted to drop a quick update here. I did retain an attorney a year ago, who promptly told me not to post on here any more.
> 
> I'm gonna try and keep this short and sweet, leaving out some details. I'm happy to share more if asked.
> 
> Tuesday of this week I was officially divorced from the lying, conniving *****. It was a long fight, and she attempted to use my children as a paycheck and rake me over the coals, but in the end ultimately failed. I will be in under a good chunk of debt for the next 3-5 years, but that's at least something I have control over.
> 
> In the end, and most importantly, she finally agreed to 50/50 joint custody, with both kids remaining in school/daycare where they have been (as if she hadn't destabilized their lives enough, she wanted to pull them out of their daycare/school in an attempt to increase parenting time for herself to get more child support).
> 
> Financially, because of all her monumental ****-ups, lying to the court and county, mis-representing (or omitting) income details, how much welfare she's on, and her being willfully underemployed (taking volunatry pay-cuts/job changes/shift changes/hours changes to the tune of reducing her income by 75%), instead of the $1000+ a month in child suporrt she was expecting, she only gets $50. FIFTY. The look on her face was priceless, and I will carry it with me and think of it whenever I am feeling down, or if I ever need a reminder that I shouldn't ever marry again.
> 
> Most importantly, though, I was able to position my kids to be able to have a chance to succeed. She is, by law, not allowed to pull them out of what they know (and they know and LOVE my daycare lady).
> 
> As for me... I'm doing great. Doing awesome at work (referred to as a "critical engineer"), and awesome personally. I've lost 105 pounds to date (which includes packing on a considerable amount of muscle; for anybody who cares, here's a 1-year difference pic: http://imgur.com/VyTLSXv (note that I've lost another ~15lbs since this pic was taken)) (I've dropped from a size 42/44 pant to 30/31, and an XL/XXL shirt to a S/M), feel great and healthy.
> 
> Just wanted to update all you folks who helped me out a lot in the beginning, and especially those who gave me a kick in the ass and essentially told me stop being so whiney. I protected my kids and myself from your stereotypical gold digging, divorce-system-abusing person.
> 
> (To calrify, I don't think all women are like that, but my view is definitely now jaded permanently)


Awesome update, brother!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## G.J.

nullrollz said:


> Lol, thanks!
> 
> When I first started I read somehwere: "Abs are made in the kitchen." I'd say the diet is 70-80% the reason for my success. I did the ketogenic diet (low carb, http://www.reddit.com/r/keto if you want to check it out) and the pounds were melting away, 10-20lbs a month for the first few months.
> 
> The rest was 4-days a week in teh gym. It was not uncommon for me to be in there at 2am on nights I didn't have the kids.


I'm so happy for you :smthumbup:

A lot of us on here tell people to get in the gym in crappy times as the benefits are vast and if correct dieting is followed you get physical results as well

Make the picture a sticky mods and allow people to see how the mind comes together as well as the body......its the best way to fight this infidelity crvp


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## turnera

It's nice to see a fruitful outcome. You stood firm at the beginning and if she hadn't been so self destructive and had such crap friends, she could have picked a better path. All on her.


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## dash74

nullrollz said:


> Indeed that was I. MGTOW?


No I just check it out now an again 

I have been married for close to 20 one son will be a sr next year and my youngest will be in 8th by the time he is out of high school the house will be paid off 

I love my wife an we mesh real well both looking forward to an empty nest I think a vakay to Singapore first just me and her >

The thing we agree on is you can't base a marriage around your kids, you have to stay lovers and friends because your kids leave. plus its funner to helicopter the wife around the bedroom than be a helicopter parent 

I love my kids like no tomorrow I am assistant scoutmaster, ones an eagle with 3 palms and my youngest is working on his eagle. we want them to be leaders not followers they are old enough to know how to act and behave and they do for the most part. Oldest wants to be a double e youngest the next michio kaku


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## JohnA

The biggest reason to go ton the gym is to burn off stress. Everything else is a big dividend.


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## HobbesTheTiger

Great to her the good news! Congratulations!

In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that you'll be going to see a counsellor to help you deal with the betrayal and everything. How have you been satisfied with counselling?

How are the kids doing?

Best wishes!


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## G.J.

Benefits of exercise - Live Well - NHS Choices


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## MattMatt

Good to see you back with such good news! :smthumbup:


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## nullrollz

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Great to her the good news! Congratulations!
> 
> In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that you'll be going to see a counsellor to help you deal with the betrayal and everything. How have you been satisfied with counselling?
> 
> How are the kids doing?
> 
> Best wishes!


Heh, ya know, I'd actually forgotten about that. I had the kids so often in the beginning and for the first ~5-6 months, and was focused so much on them and building healthy eating/gym habits that I just never went. Unsure if I still should. I'd say any resentment I had for her cheating is long gone. Any resentment I still hold towards her is from her lack of respect towards my kids and myself AFTER we separated. I'm in a pretty healthy relationship with a woman who treats me well and with respect, and is aware that I don't plan to marry again. Been seeing her for about a year now.

Kids are doing great! My son (4) started pre-school this past September and his teachers say he's doing great. He loves Legos and Star Wars. My daughter (2) is talking up a storm now and in potty training, and minus some poor sleeping habits (which only started once my ex started actually spending time with them, surprise surprise), is otherwise doing great.

Thanks for asking, take care!


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## nullrollz

G.J. said:


> Benefits of exercise - Live Well - NHS Choices


Beyond those benefits, I've also found that I have more energy and increased mental agility. My work performance boosted a lot once I got into proper eating/gym habits.


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## JohnA

Hi, 

Great you have 50/50 plus a lot of loose change. Reading your story I think going to to gym and keeping your children in their home and school system. So many fathers concede custody and think they must take whatever the courts give him. By knowing how the court decides how custody is awarded and acting on it they can overcome any basis towards the mother. 

At this point know what grounds she can use to challenge the current custody and protect yourself. At this point all you need to do is step back and let human nature take it course. The children will naturally gravitate towards spending more time in the home and with you. 

As to seeing a therapist it is good to keep your options open. Her adultery will effect every relationship with women for the rest of your life. You can grow and gain wisdom to use going forward or it will turn you bitter and distrustful. Make no mistake it will stay with you and at times you will trigger, no matter how solid a future relationship will be.


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## OldWolf57

Love that update !!

Not the ending of your marriage, but the ending of a life of pain with a selfish person.

Pleas stick around and help some who can't see life without a sl#t.


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## HobbesTheTiger

Thanks for the reply. So happy that the kids are doing great! Chattering young ones are one of the best things in the world, I just love to listen to them go on and on 

While you seem to not be in acute need of counselling, I still encourage you think about seeing a GOOD therapist at least a couple of times, just to make sure you really haven't been affected in a way that you'd need therapy. 

I hope you'll update us in the future as well, this place can never have too many uplifting stories about people surviving and thriving after infidelity. Best wishes!


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## thummper

Hi,
As someone who has fought weight problems for many years, I really do cheer your success. Too bad you couldn't include a pic of your exwife so we could compare. I probably missed this, but what ever happened to the other guy that she just couldn't bare to give up? I'm assuming that when she became available he dumped her. Good luck in the future, and enjoy your little ones. They grow up sooo fast.


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## wmn1

when you say you have massive debt, I assume you kept the house but the legal bills buried you ?

This is a case where your exW failed to determine if the fvcking she got was really worth the fvuking she will get" and she definitely came out on the short end of the stick. Plus you got better physically and she got worse. 

Good for you, man


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## nullrollz

thummper said:


> Hi,
> As someone who has fought weight problems for many years, I really do cheer your success. Too bad you couldn't include a pic of your exwife so we could compare. I probably missed this, but what ever happened to the other guy that she just couldn't bare to give up? I'm assuming that when she became available he dumped her. Good luck in the future, and enjoy your little ones. They grow up sooo fast.


Have you seen overall success with your weight loss? If not, I'm happy to chat. I'm by no means an expert, but can at least give some opinions.

I wouldn't want to sully my phone with a picture of her, so I'll refrain from trying to take one. But you make a good point


----------



## nullrollz

wmn1 said:


> when you say you have massive debt, I assume you kept the house but the legal bills buried you ?
> 
> This is a case where your exW failed to determine if the fvcking she got was really worth the fvuking she will get" and she definitely came out on the short end of the stick. Plus you got better physically and she got worse.
> 
> Good for you, man


I don't own. I rent a pretty nice townhome, but it's the same place the kids grew up in, so I kept it. At least until I can afford a home for the 3 of us.

The debt I'm referring to are the two cars and some old tax debts and some other odds and ends that I agreed to take on (I agreed because I knew she never would, and even if the courts split it 50/50, she wouldn't pay it). Perhaps massive was exaggerating, but it's not a small amount. I figure it's easier to struggle somewhat (parents have offered to help as needed, plus I have a potentially large raise soon) and guarantee that my credit doesn't get destroyed.


----------



## nullrollz

thummper said:


> Hi,
> As someone who has fought weight problems for many years, I really do cheer your success. Too bad you couldn't include a pic of your exwife so we could compare. I probably missed this, but what ever happened to the other guy that she just couldn't bare to give up? I'm assuming that when she became available he dumped her. Good luck in the future, and enjoy your little ones. They grow up sooo fast.


"Which one?" would be my initial response.

The one that started this mess faded away some point early on. There was another one she would be texting very dirty texts to (she had already been physical "to some extent" (I'm unsure how much, but it really doesn't matter, any physical is too much) with him before then) while hanging on my arm and telling me how much she wanted us to fix our marriage. I've often heard mention of the "cheater's handbook," and IT EXISTS, AND THEY USE IT.

No, she's not seeing any of them to my knowledge. There were about 4 or 5 in the beginning. I started seeing a girl not long after she left, and have been seeing her steadily since. She was NOT happy when she found out about this girl; there were crocodile tears and mentions of "please just make sure she's not there when I come to pick up some stuff. It would hurt too much to run into her." (and no, this new girl has not met my kids yet)

I stopped paying attention to her boyfriends not long after she left, excluding those that she introduced to my kids (and she did that numerous times, which is quite hypocritical because she broached the subject of "wating 6 months" before I had a chance to bring it up with her). Sadly, not a whole lot I can do there unless the dude's abusive besides being there for my kids, which I always will be.


----------



## GusPolinski

nullrollz said:


> Hey folks, wanted to drop a quick update here. I did retain an attorney a year ago, who promptly told me not to post on here any more.
> 
> I'm gonna try and keep this short and sweet, leaving out some details. I'm happy to share more if asked.
> 
> Tuesday of this week I was officially divorced from the lying, conniving *****. It was a long fight, and she attempted to use my children as a paycheck and rake me over the coals, but in the end ultimately failed. I will be in under a good chunk of debt for the next 3-5 years, but that's at least something I have control over.
> 
> In the end, and most importantly, she finally agreed to 50/50 joint custody, with both kids remaining in school/daycare where they have been (as if she hadn't destabilized their lives enough, she wanted to pull them out of their daycare/school in an attempt to increase parenting time for herself to get more child support).
> 
> Financially, because of all her monumental ****-ups, lying to the court and county, mis-representing (or omitting) income details, how much welfare she's on, and her being willfully underemployed (taking volunatry pay-cuts/job changes/shift changes/hours changes to the tune of reducing her income by 75%), instead of the $1000+ a month in child suporrt she was expecting, she only gets $50. FIFTY. The look on her face was priceless, and I will carry it with me and think of it whenever I am feeling down, or if I ever need a reminder that I shouldn't ever marry again.
> 
> Most importantly, though, I was able to position my kids to be able to have a chance to succeed. She is, by law, not allowed to pull them out of what they know (and they know and LOVE my daycare lady).
> 
> As for me... I'm doing great. Doing awesome at work (referred to as a "critical engineer"), and awesome personally. I've lost 105 pounds to date (which includes packing on a considerable amount of muscle; for anybody who cares, here's a 1-year difference pic: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (note that I've lost another ~15lbs since this pic was taken)) (I've dropped from a size 42/44 pant to 30/31, and an XL/XXL shirt to a S/M), feel great and healthy.
> 
> Just wanted to update all you folks who helped me out a lot in the beginning, and especially those who gave me a kick in the ass and essentially told me stop being so whiney. I protected my kids and myself from your stereotypical gold digging, divorce-system-abusing person.
> 
> (To calrify, I don't think all women are like that, but my view is definitely now jaded permanently)


Great job on the weight loss, nullrollz.

But you know what I noticed when looking at the pic?

Your phone. LOL.

That's a 3rd gen Moto G, isn't it?


----------



## Be smart

I just read you story from the begining and I am happy for you my friend. 

You really did a great job,especially with your kids .

Best wishes to you and dont go anywhere,stay with us


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## nullrollz

GusPolinski said:


> Great job on the weight loss, nullrollz.
> 
> But you know what I noticed when looking at the pic?
> 
> Your phone. LOL.
> 
> That's a 3rd gen Moto G, isn't it?


HA, damn right it is! $220 for something this awesome? Moto is killing it.


----------



## nullrollz

Be smart said:


> I just read you story from the begining and I am happy for you my friend.
> 
> You really did a great job,especially with your kids .
> 
> Best wishes to you and dont go anywhere,stay with us


Thanks for the read through, and kind words! I'll be hanging around here and there for sure.


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## happy as a clam

You're 'da man, nullrollz!!!

Never mind the weight you shed through hard work at the gym, true blood, sweat & tears (your before & afters are amazing) -- which is no small feat I might add; you also managed to shed 200+ pounds of dead weight  (ahem... your controlling wife!)

So happy to hear how much better off you are. And thanks so much for reporting back!

Success stories are much-coveted here on TAM. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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