# How did you choose your husband?



## Zombiemarriage (Feb 17, 2018)

Listening to the radio one day I heard the following phrase from a woman," A woman doesn't get married to her man for what he is, but for what he can become".

I figured out years after my marriage broke down that this is what my wife was thinking in the early stages of our relationship.

Except, she didn't tell me that she had an expectation that I would blossom into a greater version of myself. Or transform into a more suitable kind of man.

I thought most of the way through our relationship that she had accepted me entirely how I was. After all, I would have thought she wouldn't have married me if I wasn't the right material. 

Another thing I heard after getting married was this,

Wife complains, "He won't change".

Husband complains, "She changed".

Finally, just in case you're curious..

Yes there are kids involved.

Yes we are still married.

Yes we sleep separately in the marital home.

She stopped talking to me 2 years ago.

No she won't go to counseling.

Hey ho....


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I dont agree with what that lady said on the radio. I married my husband for what he is. I have heard of so many women marrying a man and thinking they can change him afterwards. If you don't love and accept him for what he is now, they why marry him?

I am sorry for your situation. I cant imagine how much it must be damaging the children and their ideas of what marriage is.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

There are small things that, over time, each of us has had to change for the other. Behaviors that were not good. But the core of who we are is something that we accept. Some things change just from time and change of circumstance. DH can be less cheery, free and fun than he used to. But of course! Now he is a grown up with a house, a job, 2 kids and a bunch of other stuff! I have crows feet and a different shaped body. We learn to accept and love each new version of each other.

I think it is a crime of female conditioning that cause women to think that a husband is too be acquired that disciplined into being what she wants. It is cruel.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Zombiemarriage said:


> Listening to the radio one day I heard the following phrase from a woman," A woman doesn't get married to her man for what he is, but for what he can become".
> 
> I figured out years after my marriage broke down that this is what my wife was thinking in the early stages of our relationship.
> 
> ...



She stopped talking to you two years ago?

How do you comunicate about the kids and financial decissions?

Time to see a lawyer!



Does she work?

Could she be cheating?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

There is a saying:
A woman marries a man thinking she can change him, a man marries woman hoping she doesn't change. In the end they are both wrong.
This type of thinking is exactly what leads to many failed marriages. By failed I am not talking about just divorces but unhappy or broken ones like the OPs. I also think that clinging to that idea lead to more disappointment after a failed marriage. All people change. We have no control over how someone else changes.

OP if she hasn't spoken to you in two years and you sleep in separate rooms, why are going thru the motions of being married. Both of you deserve to be free of the shackles of this failed marriage, especially if she refuses to go to counseling.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Life is strange. You realize that every day that goes by that this situation is allowed to continue tells your wife you are okay with the situation, right?

At one point, I just looked and my wife and said (paraphrasing), "Either we get better together or I will get better alone. The choice is yours."

And I meant it. I was willing to end my marriage, because it was a sham.

For you, before you have the conversation, you must rule out an affair. The reason is that how you handle that situation versus growing apart is dramatically different. 

While doing so, start becoming a better version of you. Exercise, improve your diet, start setting aside time for hobbies you love.

But first and foremost, discreetly rule out another person in your marriage. And please... PLEASE...DO NOT ask her or confront on this possibility yet. It will completely tip your hand and make investigating that much harder.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It's time to pull the plug. This marriage is irrevocably broken. Everyone will be happier once it's over.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Here's a scenario I have seen about a gazillion times:

A LOT of men sink into a state of blahness and boredom when in a LTR with a woman. Super duper gungho energetic guy with dreams and aspirations gets married... and he changes. Kids arrive? He really changes. He just gets comfy. Not necessarily LAZY (he still works and does all he needs to do to survive and provide for his family), but he doesn't have that extra oomph he used to have. He gets complacent.

Wife loses respect. What happened to Mr. Energy? Wife leaves. Sometimes this involves finding a replacement. 

With wife out of the picture, dude eventually rediscovers his oomph. He becomes more of the guy he used to be. He is more attractive. He has no problem finding women. His income increases and life is good.

Ex-wife is incensed. "What... you couldn't do all this when we were MARRIED?! What the hell?!" (True story: I had a buddy whose wife had two affairs. After she left, he traded in the Prius for a Jeep. His ex saw the new Jeep and said "Maybe if you got one of these before, we'd still be together.")

Dude eventually gets into another LTR, and repeats the process all over. 

The grand irony for A LOT of men: If you want to realize your full potential, stay away from long-term relationships with women. There is just something about women that softens us. Dad bods. Couch sitting. Dead-end jobs. Remove the ladies from the equation, and we wake up. Of course, a big part of the wake up (in my opinion) is this unconscious desire to project the most attractive image possible so you can attract women again. Lose weight. Get a different car. Get a raise. Get women. It's going into "Lover" mode again (versus "Provider" mode). 

Both men and women do this. We project the best up front... we slide into blahness as the years go on. 

Woman wants ambition out of her man? Keep dating.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> At one point, I just looked and my wife and said (paraphrasing), *"Either we get better together or I will get better alone. The choice is yours."*
> 
> And I meant it. I was willing to end my marriage, because it was a sham.


I'm curious.

Was this an all of the sudden exclaimation, or over time had you shared aspects of marriage that you wanted to work on, and it just wasn't happening?

How did she respond to this? And did it get better?


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

I suspect that one reason the divorce rate drops for people who marry after their mid-20s is that there is much less guessing about who you, or your spouse, will become- e.g. what kind of person they are going to develop or "change" into. People who get married in their late teens or early 20s- which described most people in the last 70 years or so- got together in late adolescence/early adulthood. People change a lot from 17-30. Back when women were dependent on their husbands for food and shelter, they were taking a gamble marrying an 18 or 21 year old. I think there was a reason for the cliche where women married based on who they thought the man would become. It's a different world now, thankfully!

As for how I chose my husband? He was the right man, and we were in the right place at the right time. We'd known each other as friends for a long time, since we were teenagers, but lost contact in our mid 20s. We saw each other again in our mid 30s, and just clicked. My heart nearly fell out of my chest when I saw him again. He walked through the door, saw me and came over for a hug. I thought I would die, I was trying so hard to play it cool but jfc he was *so* tall and hot and sexy and smelled so good! We started hanging out, then dated, then moved in together, and got married about 2.5 years after that first re-introduction. It's been 10 years and I still feel so lucky and am so happy that he chose me. We have both changed a lot since we first met as teens, since we started dating in our 30s, and even since getting married and becoming parents. People change. Thankfully we have grown together (and my H in particular made decisions to make that happen.)

I'm sorry to hear of your marital troubles. Two years is a long time to have such difficulties, minimal communication, sleeping in different rooms. Did something happen two years ago? Did she have an affair, or did you? Addictions? Major loss?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> I suspect that one reason the divorce rate drops for people who marry after their mid-20s is that there is much less guessing about who you, or your spouse, will become- e.g. what kind of person they are going to develop or "change" into. People who get married in their late teens or early 20s- which described most people in the last 70 years or so- got together in late adolescence/early adulthood. People change a lot from 17-30.


People are always changing, (for better or worse) regardless of age.

In the past few years of dating, I've met many men who've been married more than once, and, of course, their second marriage was later in life, and they were older. 

Whether a first or second marriage, a lot of divorced men also had children later, so have a 7 to 14 year old still at home.

Being older, and even having gone through the experience of marriage and divorce, didn't seem to result in much growth, self-awareness or committment to healthy relationships.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

minimalME said:


> People are always changing, (for better or worse) regardless of age.
> 
> In the past few years of dating, I've met many men who've been married more than once, and, of course, their second marriage was later in life, and they were older.
> 
> ...


Hopefully people are changing through life, but as we get older, we often change in smaller degrees than we do from youth. 

Dating now, at an older age, allows you to see some things about the men you're dating. "Didn't seem to result in much growth, self-awareness or commitment to healthy relationships" is VERY important information for you, if you're looking for a long-term relationship. It's information that you can pick up in a 40 year old man easier than you can in an 20 year old man.

Boring off-the-cuff example stuff:

As an example, I'm going to pull out six people, including me and my husband, in our circle of friends. We are still friends with all but one of these people but the last person is around and we have an idea of his status. Over the last 25ish years:

At 21, all 6 of us were working and/or in school (those of us in college were also working), all six of us were in relationships. All 6 of us looked to be on good paths for both jobs and relationships.

At 31, job-wise: 3/6 of us were building careers. 1 was trying to build a career but kept getting fired. 1 was changing careers, 1 was in a long term temp job. Relationship-wise: 1 of us was just getting married, 1 of us had a few short-lived relationships, 4 of us were in relationships (5+ years long) that were on shaky ground or getting divorced. 

At 41, job-wise: the 3 who had been building careers were now in solid careers. The 1 who had changed careers was also now in a solid career. The 1 who kept getting fired, continue to keep getting fired and had few job prospects. The 1 who had been a long term temp job still had not been able to build a career or find a permanent job. Relationship-wise: the 1 who previously had not been able to get into or maintain a LT relationship was still single and happily so, she was not looking for a SO. 1 of us who got divorced had been unable to get into/maintain a LT relationship (this is also one of us who had not been able to maintain a job or build a career.) The person who had just gotten married was still married to the same person, now with kids. The other four of us were married with kids.

We are about 1/2 to 51, and so far, the trends continue as they did at 41. The married are still married to the same people, careers are still growing for those who have them. But we still have 4-5 years to go and a lot can change in that time, so we'll see. 

For us, like for many, our job and relationship status was a stronger predictor of future success at 31 than they were at 21:

Job-wise: At 21, we were all working. At 31, 4/5 of us who were working towards a career went on to build a good one by 41. The two people who had been unable to keep a job at 31 were still unsuccessful at 41. 
Relationship-wise: At 21, we were all in relationships. At 31, even though 4/6 of us had failed LT relationships, the LT aspect was a good predictor of future LT relationship status at 41 (3/4 of us or 75% of us went on to future LT marriages while 1/4 25% hadn't been able to get into or maintain a LT relationship).

Past behaviors is a good, if imperfect, predictor of future behaviors. The problem with getting into new relationships is, most of us overlook the predictors that we don't want to deal with. You can't get details on the future but you can get a feel for what the person really values, you can get a sense of whether they want to learn from past experiences or blame others to avoid their own accountability. You can see if they are people who tend more towards action vs wallowing. 

My H was divorced when we got together, but he had been able to maintain that relationship for many years, and had a prior LT relationship before that. He tried very hard to save his marriage, and I knew that he greatly valued marriage. He was still angry at his ex-wife and heart-broken over the loss of his step-daughter, but even so, he didn't wallow. He was invested in his future and made a decision to change his location, to add an extra year of training so he could get into a new career even though it was a duplicate year that he'd already done elsewhere, and would keep him at a lower earning rate in the short term. He was willing to go through hardship early on for long-term gain. I actually lived with him at 21 (platonically) but I knew much more about his potential as a great husband when we starting dating in in 30s.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i dont know exactly what my wife saw in me. 

i asked her once, and she said that i seemed safe to her because nothing she did really seemed to phase me. 

as for me, i have asked myself many times why i got married to my wife. the best answer i can come up with is that i got married in order to force myself to change, to grow. 

i had no idea what i was getting into. but damn, its been one hell of an adventure!


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Zombiemarriage said:


> Listening to the radio one day I heard the following phrase from a woman," *A woman doesn't get married to her man for what he is, but for what he can become".
> *
> ...................................


We are all individuals, she can no more speak for me as I can her. Personally I have never married and expected the man to change into what "he could become". To me that seems ludicrous, far better to marry a good, hard working man to start with.
Issue was with first husband I did not understand the importance of my need to be with a man with both high IQ and EQ. #1 has high intelligence and #2 has both IQ and EQ.


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## Mario Kempes (Jun 12, 2010)

Zombiemarriage said:


> Listening to the radio one day I heard the following phrase from a woman," A woman doesn't get married to her man for what he is, but for what he can become".


Aisle altar hymn! :wink2:


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

Zombiemarriage said:


> Listening to the radio one day I heard the following phrase from a woman," A woman doesn't get married to her man for what he is, but for what he can become".
> 
> I figured out years after my marriage broke down that this is what my wife was thinking in the early stages of our relationship.
> 
> Except, she didn't tell me that she had an expectation that I would blossom into a greater version of myself. Or transform into a more suitable kind of man.


Hello! I’m sorry you find yourself in a zombie marriage. In true zombie fashion it sounds like it is eating you alive and transforming you into a different version of yourself, corrupting you with self-doubt. Easier said than done (ask me how I know?!), but please don’t let it!

What you wrote here… “she had an expectation that I would blossom into a greater version of myself. Or transform into a more suitable kind of man”… is very sad. What is so wrong with the you that you are? 

You seem like a loving, devoted father and you’ve offered counseling to help resuscitate your dead marriage. Sounds like you at least keep striving, you keep getting up, you persevere. 

Don’t let another person, even the one who vowed to love and cherish you and reneged, make you feel like you’re not a “suitable” man. Never judge yourself by another’s yardstick, you’ll never measure up if you do.

We all have untapped potential; even if those seeds of greatness within us do not bloom or come to fruition we are still beautiful miracles of creation and unique collections of memory, time, generations, love, wonder, pain, sorrow, and life. We are singular mysteries that will never happen again! You are the only you that will ever be. Cherish yourself! 

Now to answer your question, I did not “choose” my husband for what he could become or the potential within him, I married him for who he was. He loved animals, was kind, very intelligent, was a bigger book nerd than me, had read my most favorite book in the world, he loved Tom Waits and Nick Cave, and he made me laugh - a lot. I was a goner. I loved him then and despite all that has come to pass…I love him still. Just as he is.

He was and is my best friend and even when our bond has been strained to near breaking and is threadbare, he is the first person I want to talk to about it. I very much agree with and subscribe to the wise words of Prince Rogers Nelson…

“If I was your one and only friend
Would you run to me if somebody hurt you
Even if that somebody was me?”

That’s how we’ve made it through many white-knuckle years. We talk, we laugh - at ourselves and each other, and we love and support one another. I don’t _have_ to be with him, I want to be. And no matter the storms and turbulent seas we’ve faced, we always get through it together... hand in hand, we ride the waves. 

We’re going through some dark and difficult times right now. I saw the below gif and sent it to him with “I love you, otter” as the subject line. He understood what I meant and replied, “we raft”. I love him for that and for so many reasons.











I hope you ride out your turbulent seas too and that one day you find safe harbor on another shore. Remember, “the lowest ebb is the turn of the tide”. Strength to you.


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## purplesunsets (Feb 26, 2018)

dadstartingover said:


> Here's a scenario I have seen about a gazillion times:
> 
> A LOT of men sink into a state of blahness and boredom when in a LTR with a woman. Super duper gungho energetic guy with dreams and aspirations gets married... and he changes. Kids arrive? He really changes. He just gets comfy. Not necessarily LAZY (he still works and does all he needs to do to survive and provide for his family), but he doesn't have that extra oomph he used to have. He gets complacent.
> 
> ...


What a bleak image . I think if you are aware enough to recognize that pattern, then it should follow you could wake up that "lover" and "chaser" instinct to do that for your long-term partner.

Although some of this rings true, I think that for those who have _some_ self-awareness, they won't fall into this generalization you've made .


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

minimalME said:


> Being older, and even having gone through the experience of marriage and divorce, didn't seem to result in much growth, self-awareness or committment to healthy relationships.


That is because they haven't taken the time to learn the lessons. Learn the real lessons that resonate with you and not all the lessons everyone tells you that you should learn and you will have real growth. Also sometime with that growth and self awareness you come to realize that what you had or find yourself in now is NOT a healthy relationship. With that growth, commitment to your own happiness, trumps commitment to a relationship all day, every day.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

purplesunsets said:


> What a bleak image . I think if you are aware enough to recognize that pattern, then it should follow you could wake up that "lover" and "chaser" instinct to do that for your long-term partner.
> 
> Although some of this rings true, I think that for those who have _some_ self-awareness, they won't fall into this generalization you've made .


Why would it follow that you could wake up that "lover" and "chaser" instinct to do that for your long term partner?
At the same time the man is going thru these changes, women are also going thru changes. Perhaps, they may change in a way to make the awakening happen with them. But more often, they have become something that doesn't allow that awakening and in fact suppresses it even more.
The reality is that those who do have self awareness do fall into this generalization. Self awareness is awareness of the self, not awareness of the relationship.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

Zombiemarriage said:


> Yes there are kids involved.
> 
> Yes we are still married.
> 
> ...


You are setting a dreadful example of a relationship to your kids. How will you feel if they are in a similar miserable situation when they grow up because they thought that this is how relationships are?

You passed the filing divorce point about 1 year, 11 months and 2 weeks ago.

If you need a reason for divorce I believe that the term is "alienation of affection". What you have here isn't a marriage by any standard you could measure it by.


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## purplesunsets (Feb 26, 2018)

Ynot said:


> Why would it follow that you could wake up that "lover" and "chaser" instinct to do that for your long term partner?
> *At the same time the man is going thru these changes, women are also going thru changes. Perhaps, they may change in a way to make the awakening happen with them. But more often, they have become something that doesn't allow that awakening and in fact suppresses it even more.*
> The reality is that those who do have self awareness do fall into this generalization. Self awareness is awareness of the self, not awareness of the relationship.


It would follow because you would recognize the cost of NOT doing such...? Unless you want your wife to walk away, why would you knowingly do what would drive someone away? That's an interesting perspective to have..

To the bolded part, that is precisely the _opposite _of what the OP wrote... they were talking about _lack of change_... so I'm not sure I understand where you're going with that.

And to your last point.. I vehemently disagree. Awareness of the self means awareness of how you interact in relationships and what part you play... if you believe that "I get lazy when I marry, wife doesn't like lazy and will leave me..." then this awareness of your self, along with your beliefs about the relationship, should in fact lead you to some logical conclusions like the ones mentioned in my OP.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

purplesunsets said:


> It would follow because you would recognize the cost of NOT doing such...? Unless you want your wife to walk away, why would you knowingly do what would drive someone away? That's an interesting perspective to have..
> 
> To the bolded part, that is precisely the _opposite _of what the OP wrote... they were talking about _lack of change_... so I'm not sure I understand where you're going with that.
> 
> And to your last point.. I vehemently disagree. Awareness of the self means awareness of how you interact in relationships and what part you play... if you believe that "I get lazy when I marry, wife doesn't like lazy and will leave me..." then this awareness of your self, along with your beliefs about the relationship, should in fact lead you to some logical conclusions like the ones mentioned in my OP.


BUT, you may not want to because your spouse has changed into something you do not like. So why would you try to win her back or make yourself attractive to that.

No, lack of change is NOT what the OP was talking. Lack of change into whatever or whoever she expected him to be is what we are talking about. No one can think for you. No one can will you to change into someone you aren't.

Awareness of self is about being aware of what makes YOU happy. Perhaps this relationship does make you happy. Perhaps it doesn't. That is what self awareness is.

You seem to be coming from the POV that every relationship should be saved - sometimes, that awakening that it shouldn't takes you in a different direction away from whomever you happen to have decided to be with oh so many years ago.


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## purplesunsets (Feb 26, 2018)

Ynot said:


> BUT, you may not want to because your spouse has changed into something you do not like. So why would you try to win her back or make yourself attractive to that.
> 
> No, lack of change is NOT what the OP was talking. Lack of change into whatever or whoever she expected him to be is what we are talking about. No one can think for you. No one can will you to change into someone you aren't.
> 
> ...


What?? Haha, no I'm not. I was simply stating that if the OP thinks that there is a "set path" for how relationships go (man gets lazy, woman doesn't like it and leaves), then the awareness of this should deter one from falling victim to this bleak representation of "all" relationships.

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding me greatly and making assumptions about me in general because of what I wrote...


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

purplesunsets said:


> What?? Haha, no I'm not. I was simply stating that if the OP thinks that there is a "set path" for how relationships go (man gets lazy, woman doesn't like it and leaves), then the awareness of this should deter one from falling victim to this bleak representation of "all" relationships.
> 
> I'm afraid you are misunderstanding me greatly and making assumptions about me in general because of what I wrote...


But the person you quoted wrote several times "A LOT" when referring to men in general. He wasn't referring to a single set path. He was referring to something he has seen happen A LOT, not always.
He also wrote that it isn't necessarily that the H got lazy, it is just that with all of the responsibilities heaped on his shoulders now, he doesn't have the energy to be that high energy guy he was before. 
Your response OTOH seemed to insinuate that all anyone had to do was to simply awaken the "lover" or "chaser" with their current spouse. My point is that sometimes that spouse has all but killed off any desire to become the "lover" or "chaser". Therefore it isn't a matter of simply awakening those things as much as it is to just realize that you are unhappy because of who you have become by trying to live up to someone else's standards. You seem to be implying that we should just try to live up to our spouse's expectations without regards to our own.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

A LOT of times and I may get slack over this...It's not intended to be ALL cases but here goes. The H may have his get up and go hindered or shut down after too many rejections when he seeks a great physical relationship with his wife. Or simply again no secret, if W says no when they go to bed and he reaches over and says hey Loverbunny.....she says no, he's thinking well sh$$ here I am, married, sleeping next to an almost naked woman, and I can't touch her? This suc$s, well sh$$$t... And he spends time stewing, rather than sharing closeness/time with his W, who is a part of the foundation that armors him to go into the world and slay dragons for the both of them.

Part of his foundation is weakened, he doesn't care/isn't able to get that extra step in when needed outside as he's battling the world...can feel as he's in IT alone anyway, and takes of on a lessor path than he might "with a full tank/great foundation"...And he continues to "settle". After all, the person he's fighting the world for won't give him a big part of his "prize"...so what the heck.

The truth is and it's no secret, we all know; man does great things mostly for woman. If he's now stuck with a future of no(s) or grief of changing wives, he may work up to the glass ceiling of just good enough instead of shooting for the moon.
Some of us will indeed abandon that woman and find a true team mate, then continue to the moon, but a LOT will settle, until wife says why didn't you keep going up as when we first got married and never have a clue she was PART of the concrete weighing their team down.

Whoever believes a marriage doesn't typically go this way is fooling themselves or wants to stay in the dark.

Love EACH OTHER. Talk, but sometimes not too much at certain times. Both will get farther in life, in material items and rewarding relationship.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Ynot said:


> But the person you quoted wrote several times "A LOT" when referring to men in general. He wasn't referring to a single set path. He was referring to something he has seen happen A LOT, not always.
> He also wrote that it isn't necessarily that the H got lazy, it is just that with all of the responsibilities heaped on his shoulders now, he doesn't have the energy to be that high energy guy he was before.
> Your response OTOH seemed to insinuate that all anyone had to do was to simply awaken the "lover" or "chaser" with their current spouse. My point is that sometimes that spouse has all but killed off any desire to become the "lover" or "chaser". Therefore it isn't a matter of simply awakening those things as much as it is to just realize that you are unhappy because of who you have become by trying to live up to someone else's standards. You seem to be implying that we should just try to live up to our spouse's expectations without regards to our own.


It's a vicious circle you can find yourself in. _*"I know I need to do more of the 'shallow/dating' BS to get my spouse worked up and attracted to me more.. but I shouldn't HAVE to, and I'm not really sure I WANT to." *_ 

Wife is a nag. Wife has gained weight. Wife seems to have lost attraction to him ever since they had a kid, he got laid off, he got sick, etc. Now we're telling this guy he needs to step up and lead and get better to be more attractive and be a better hubby. *"I gotta jump through hoops for HER!? What the hell does she have to do?! Just sit there and nag more?" *

I just tell dudes to suck it up, throw the ego away... and put all you can into being an undeniably good catch of a man. If she doesn't like it... then the good news is that you have built up an awesome new persona and you will have ZERO problems dating chicks who will treat you well. If she does like it, then she gets her butt in shape and becomes a better wife. Win/Win.


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## purplesunsets (Feb 26, 2018)

Ynot said:


> purplesunsets said:
> 
> 
> > What?? Haha, no I'm not. I was simply stating that if the OP thinks that there is a "set path" for how relationships go (man gets lazy, woman doesn't like it and leaves), then the awareness of this should deter one from falling victim to this bleak representation of "all" relationships.
> ...


I think you've made too many assumptions about what I wrote. I can understand your perspective and I'm sure it's tiring trying to live up to someone's expectations. As someone with very high expectations of myself and others, it is tiring for both people... haha!

I didn't mean to imply any of what you stated... I meant only what I wrote, not the implications of which you write. Everything is open to interpretation through "writing" anyways.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> It's a vicious circle you can find yourself in. _*"I know I need to do more of the 'shallow/dating' BS to get my spouse worked up and attracted to me more.. but I shouldn't HAVE to, and I'm not really sure I WANT to." *_
> 
> Wife is a nag. Wife has gained weight. Wife seems to have lost attraction to him ever since they had a kid, he got laid off, he got sick, etc. Now we're telling this guy he needs to step up and lead and get better to be more attractive and be a better hubby. *"I gotta jump through hoops for HER!? What the hell does she have to do?! Just sit there and nag more?" *
> 
> I just tell dudes to suck it up, throw the ego away... and put all you can into being an undeniably good catch of a man. If she doesn't like it... then the good news is that you have built up an awesome new persona and you will have ZERO problems dating chicks who will treat you well. If she does like it, then she gets her butt in shape and becomes a better wife. Win/Win.


Yeah, I get all sorts of blowback by saying that people should be more selfish like that. Just be the best person you can be. You make an offer. They either accept it or reject it. If they don't accept, someone else will. The someone else will probably be better for you anyways.
Some people imagine that everything you do, you should do for your spouse, but the reality is that everything we do is for our own happiness. Making your spouse happy is something that happens when there is true compatibility, it isn't something you should try to do at the expense of your own happiness.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

For a person to be a good half of a successful happy couple....each person ideally is a complete person in their own right before joining a team (couple). Not all about money or material things although it helps....be honest about that. But the money is absolutely not a requirement. 
Be "a good team member" yourself before you become part of a team....that's a requirement. 

Each in a couple do have to agree beforehand at least what sport and league you both are playing in. Like both need to agree they're going to play "football" (or insert analogy here), and pro, semi-pro, minors, or majors so at least your both looking in the same direction when decide to marry. BEFORE you marry.

Or as we all know, marrying then trying to change the other mostly doesn't work.

And support the team and coach. *Each will be the coach at different times, depending on circumstances. And be prepared to DON'T LET YOUR TEAMMATE DOWN when needed even if you "have a headache" or have to schedule time off work to help do what's important to your SO time to time. And stay away from the extremes in needs and over doing support for childish things (Both W and H interchangeably).

No name calling. No screaming. No stopping physical connection. 
Be supportive but don't reinforce an entitlement complex.

And remember, a man works primarily for his woman as long as she doesn't keep hitting him with negativity in comments or actions. AND VICE-VERSA, for those that will attack that premise. *If one doesn't want to drain a 5 gallon bucket, quit poking a thousand pin holes in it. That will drain it more painfully than punching one big hole.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> He was and is my best friend and even when our bond has been strained to near breaking and is threadbare, he is the first person I want to talk to about it. I very much agree with and subscribe to the wise words of Prince Rogers Nelson…
> 
> “If I was your one and only friend
> Would you run to me if somebody hurt you
> Even if that somebody was me?”



_'If I was your girlfriend, would you remember
To tell me all the things you forgot when I was your man?'_

At the heart of the sentiment, is trust - of the individual and of one another in the relationship.
Trusting with emotional, physical, sexual (and flirty) intimacy. 



What have you done to change your situation for yourself (such as independent counseling)?

If a girlfriend came to me and said her and her husband lived separately in the same house, that she wasn't willing to work on the marriage and didn't want to speak to him... I'd be asking, what the hell happened?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I don't agree with the quote about marrying for what he will become.

We simply dug one another.

What I will say about my husband is I've been taken aback by the man he is now. His personal growth, values and constant learning have led to the paths he's chosen which were unpredictable to me. Within his journey, he's not only made room for me but purposefully includes me. Part of this experience has been his volunteering. I will echo slightly what Far Side wrote, in that hubs said he wanted to do this (volunteer firefighter) and my knee-jerk reaction was that I didn't want him to. In hindsight I'm embarrassed by the way I reacted. He continued his path nonetheless and helped to support me in understanding - which in turn helped to support him. I absolutely take my hat off to their camaraderie, commitment and will to serve others. That growth has extended to me, and even us as a couple. When surrounded by solid people who have your back, it's perhaps a natural side-effect that you're forced to grow and recognize you can have someone else's back too.

I've been immersed in, and observed, his journey. We still dig one another.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

minimalME said:


> I'm curious.
> 
> Was this an all of the sudden exclaimation, or over time had you shared aspects of marriage that you wanted to work on, and it just wasn't happening?
> 
> How did she respond to this? And did it get better?


It was delivered in an explosive manner.

For several years prior, I allowed her to walk all over me. My wife can be a bulldozer if she's not stood up to. I did it because I thought it was more important to keep my family together then to maintain myself respect. Crazy, right?

She was livid. She was so used to walking all over me that she just expected it would continue. What she didn't expect was that I had suddenly found my balls. While she did not like it, she quickly began to respect it. And frankly, I would much rather be respected than liked.

We are much better now. We found a good compromise on frequency, and she gets the same level of service from me that she is willing to give. As she increases it, I do the same. As she withdraws, I reciprocate, and pursue the hobbies I enjoy. If she doesn't like that, she knows exactly what she needs to do for it to improve.


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## Pantone429c (Feb 8, 2018)

So no sex and no conversation and you are staying together for your children?

Sounds like a crappy environment for kids to grow up in. Everyone in your family would be better off in the long run if you lived in different homes unless you lack
financial ability to do so. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I asked my W once, and her answer was she noticed my ample "intelligence" from across the room.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I never felt like I chose my husband. If anything, he chose me - it was like a powerful tractor beam....

Pure chemistry that included, almost above all, the attraction of intellect. He is still the smartest man in my life (besides my son, of course, lol).

Men don't have to get complacent. Women don't have to turn them down for sex. My marriage hasn't gone either of these ways, but we still have had big issues. The ambition that has stopped the 'dad bod' and the complacency on his part has at times been the steam roller that almost killed the marriage. My combination of admiring the ambition, yet raging at its effects on me and our children has led to a maddening cognitive dissonance on my part.

In any event, I chose my husband because I was very deeply in love with him and was able to tell at the time that it was different from other men I had had relationships with. I thought I knew what he would become and was pretty much correct.

Even with that deep love, I wouldn't stay married to anyone who didn't speak to me. Why would you do that? In prison? Financial worries so severe that the empty life you now have looks better by comparison?


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## MLK22 (Jan 13, 2015)

I tend to disagree on the "investigate to see if there is cheating" sentiment. Not in all circumstances, but in this one. I don't think it matters (except on an emotional, morbid curiosity level). This marriage seems all but dead - doesn't seem like the presence of other parties is relevant at this point.

To the original question -- I think how you choose your husband is partially a matter of age and life experience... Having been married twice, 1st husband I married to build a family and a life with. We were young as hell, so yeah, what he could become was a factor. He didn't become what I thought he would, btw. 2nd marriage, I was in my mid 30's. I was not interested at all in any project man. I wasn't interested in remarrying at all, really. He came into the picture and hit me like a sledgehammer. I'd never been loved so fully and selflessly, and he was a good father to his children and an amazing provider (blue collar, back breaking work, overtime, etc)... I just respected him so much- and he was over the moon about me like no one had ever been -- I mean, not really, genuinely, selflessly. Boy, he swept me off my feet. Our problems notwithstanding, we've been married 8 years and I still get butterflies when he walks in the room.


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## Zombiemarriage (Feb 17, 2018)

I'm staying because I have to prioritize the stability in my kids lives higher than my own needs. 

The problems date back a lot longer than the two years mentioned. 

The future will be better.


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## MLK22 (Jan 13, 2015)

Zombiemarriage said:


> I'm staying because I have to prioritize the stability in my kids lives higher than my own needs.
> 
> The problems date back a lot longer than the two years mentioned.
> 
> The future will be better.


Just my opinion, and everyone has to do what feels best to them, but:
Kids learn from us how to be happy, productive adults, and they learn a lot more by example than they do conversation. Stability can be reestablished quickly, and kids are resilient, but teaching them unhealthy marital habits could lead to decades of misery. I know, for me, leaving me my first marriage became about not being a martyr and, more importantly, not raising kids who become martyrs.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Having parents who live apart and don't talk to one another is one thing. Having parents who live in the same house with you and don't talk to one another is completely different. The latter can really mess children up.

Which one do you have?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> We are much better now. We found a good compromise on frequency, and she gets the same level of service from me that she is willing to give. As she increases it, I do the same. As she withdraws, I reciprocate, and pursue the hobbies I enjoy. If she doesn't like that, she knows exactly what she needs to do for it to improve.


Great that you worked something about that's acceptable to you!

One question though: is your wife happy with you ratcheting your level of service up or down to meet hers, or did she only grudgingly accept it? I am curious since I've known women who would be fine with it (i.e. believing that she shouldn't get more out the relationship than you do), some who would be annoyed with having to be mindful of their effort levels (and I agree that's fine), and some who would leave rather than be assessed based on their performance level.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dadstartingover said:


> With wife out of the picture, dude eventually rediscovers his oomph. He becomes more of the guy he used to be. He is more attractive. He has no problem finding women. His income increases and life is good.


I see when that happens as a sign that possibly the wife is not pulling her weight at home. Maybe she's not contributing much, the sex is bad and/or infrequent, she's shifted into full-on mom mode, she isn't coping with the responsibilities of life well and the marriage suffers, etc.

It might look like the same thing you're talking about, but the distinction is the cause and effect. It's the woman not doing her part in the relationship that starts the chain of events.

Personally, I went through some of that during my marriage. I didn't slack off and lose all ambition. In fact it was the opposite - I still managed to build a career while raising a family and taking care of the home. But it's a drain when your W is not working hard alongside you to _support all aspects of married/family life_, and as a consequence you don't have as much to invest in yourself going forward.

You see it all the time (on TAM and elsewhere). Man has a wife who fell into one of the behaviors noted above, they eventually divorce, and the guy's life is measurably better. He is a better dad to his kids, is in better financial shape, better physical shape, etc. despite having gone through the divorce. That is certainly the case with me.

Yet, I probably could have done even more had my ex followed the norm of reciprocity and matched my effort while married with her own. Just the way it goes.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Zombiemarriage said:


> Listening to the radio one day I heard the following phrase from a woman," A woman doesn't get married to her man for what he is, but for what he can become".
> 
> I figured out years after my marriage broke down that this is what my wife was thinking in the early stages of our relationship.


Yeah that happens, and especially when it comes to financial provision / career progression. It happened to me, and I know women who openly did it to their husbands. The problem is "what he can become" morphs to "what he should be", and that standard can be out of line with how most people and live and what she herself brings to the table.

My ex used to push for more and more and I accepted it because I really wasn't happy with my career either and I hadn't grown the nerve to push back against that pressure. Eventually, I did like the career I had built, and I was doing very well (but admittedly not a one-percenter) and I grew a backbone. Still the complaints continued:

* Our house (a very nice place worth over $500k) wasn't nice enough.
* Her car (a four year-old Honda, purchased new) sucked.
* I wasn't doing unspecified "great things" with my life.

The answer, my man, is to simply not take it; assess the situation honestly and (if you hold your own) then push back. I eventually stopped the harassment when I reminded her that she was living for free - that we genuinely would be better off financially if she stayed home and stopped shopping. She paid for daycare for our daughter and her personal wants. Groceries, utilities, mortgage and car payment - none of that came out of her wages.

So, yeah, after a while I pulled the "well, what do you bring to the table?" card? I didn't have to proceed to "what are you doing to deserve me now?" Nor did I have to invite her find a guy up to her standards; TBH, in retrospect it was clear she knew I was doing very well and would not have left as long as I did not lose ground financially.

If you are tired of your situation, you need to do the same (as has been suggested before). Make it clear by your actions you are aware of your value and won't put up with being dismissed as an underachiever or a failure. Insist that either participate in a repair of the marriage, or you're out. My situation turned out well, but I wish I hadn't wasted so many years in doing so.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

DTO said:


> Great that you worked something about that's acceptable to you!
> 
> One question though: is your wife happy with you ratcheting your level of service up or down to meet hers, or did she only grudgingly accept it? I am curious since I've known women who would be fine with it (i.e. believing that she shouldn't get more out the relationship than you do), some who would be annoyed with having to be mindful of their effort levels (and I agree that's fine), and some who would leave rather than be assessed based on their performance level.


She is happy most of the time, but occasionally gets frustrated with me, Some of that is projection as well as she knows why it is happening. She will periodically to frequently take on too much, which leads to her becoming overwhelmed. This inevitably leads to her pulling away from me. I get it, we all get busy. So I, in turn, get busy with other things as well.

In the past she has accused me of tit for tat. It isn't. It is me finding other ways to pursue happiness when she makes herself unavailable, which is mostly with Jiu-Jitsu and MMA training that I engage in three times weekly even when things are good. I will up that to five or six times, to include lunch time training instead of doing lunch with her.

When she accuses me of tit-for-tat, I normally give her one of two answers:

"If you want more from me, you can start by doing more for me." (Courtesy of Mem)

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Before this, I tried (and failed) to get her to up her game while I was maintaining a crazy level of service to her...residual nice guy stuff. The pressure of that was too much on her, and rightfully so. Now she has the choice. 

This may sound cold, but it isn't; it is more matter-of-fact. If she doesn't like it, she is free to leave, and I will let her go. And make no mistake...I will miss her. But I would rather be alone than tethered to a complete taker.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

DTO said:


> Yeah that happens, and especially when it comes to financial provision / career progression. It happened to me, and I know women who openly did it to their husbands. The problem is "what he can become" morphs to "what he should be", and that standard can be out of line with how most people and live and what she herself brings to the table.
> 
> My ex used to push for more and more and I accepted it because I really wasn't happy with my career either and I hadn't grown the nerve to push back against that pressure. Eventually, I did like the career I had built, and I was doing very well (but admittedly not a one-percenter) and I grew a backbone. Still the complaints continued:
> 
> ...


That was projection from her. 

Her inside voice was telling her all the things she was accusing you of...bank on it.


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## Maddmaxx (Mar 8, 2018)

Zombiemarriage said:


> Listening to the radio one day I heard the following phrase from a woman," A woman doesn't get married to her man for what he is, but for what he can become".
> 
> I figured out years after my marriage broke down that this is what my wife was thinking in the early stages of our relationship.
> 
> ...


I married young (21) so I can relate to this. I married my husband’s potential because of how I felt about him. I was willing to overlook his many flaws at the time, but I changed ALOT in a relatively short amount of time. When he didn’t quickly live up to my potential, I gave up.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

You mean projecting in the sense she was covering for her own inadequacies? Very possible - she's always placed a premium on having "stuff" and luxuries like frequent meals out.

At the same time, she is (or at least was) very narcissistic and way over-valued her contribution to the family back when ee were still married.



farsidejunky said:


> That was projection from her.
> 
> Her inside voice was telling her all the things she was accusing you of...bank on it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Yes. Projection is a classic NPD tactic. Their internal dialogue tells them they are not enough, but their ego can't handle it, so they transfer or project it on to others. 

Her contributions to the marriage were the same way. Her voice tells her, she can't handle it...so she emotionally vomits it onto you.

Stuff and luxuries were the band-aid to assuage her emotional pain.



DTO said:


> You mean projecting in the sense she was covering for her own inadequacies? Very possible - she's always placed a premium on having "stuff" and luxuries like frequent meals out.
> 
> At the same time, she is (or at least was) very narcissistic and way over-valued her contribution to the family back when ee were still married.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

It's very possible. But, a moot point now. And at the end of the day It's all her fault. If 2+ decades and two marriages weren't enough time to start acting right in a relationship, she simply wasn't trying hard.

And now karma is starting to kick her ass. Oh well.



farsidejunky said:


> Yes. Projection is a classic NPD tactic. Their internal dialogue tells them they are not enough, but their ego can't handle it, so they transfer or project it on to others.
> 
> Her contributions to the marriage were the same way. Her voice tells her, she can't handle it...so she emotionally vomits it onto you.
> 
> Stuff and luxuries were the band-aid to assuage her emotional pain.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Thank you for getting back to me on this. I've instinctively felt this was the way to go, too but it hasn't always worked. But, it's nice to see that someone has had lasting success with this method.

I had similar issues with my ex-wife, but not due to her being over-stressed. It was just that she (1) didn't really care for sex and (2) was genuinely offended that she incurred any sort of consequence from not providing it. So, no surprise that I had limited success with this method on her.

And to your example below, it never fails to amaze me how somebody comes up short but then you're the jerk for pointing it out and imposing some accountability.



farsidejunky said:


> She is happy most of the time, but occasionally gets frustrated with me, Some of that is projection as well as she knows why it is happening. She will periodically to frequently take on too much, which leads to her becoming overwhelmed. This inevitably leads to her pulling away from me. I get it, we all get busy. So I, in turn, get busy with other things as well.
> 
> In the past she has accused me of tit for tat. It isn't. It is me finding other ways to pursue happiness when she makes herself unavailable, which is mostly with Jiu-Jitsu and MMA training that I engage in three times weekly even when things are good. I will up that to five or six times, to include lunch time training instead of doing lunch with her.
> 
> ...


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