# Two questions about Michelle Wiener Davis's "180"



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

(1) Can it be applied in a situation where the spouse hasn't actually had an affair, but has just pulled out emotional from a marriage? Where she won't give you sex, doesn't bother how you feel, keeps on insulting, and threatens divorce?

(2) If you're implementing "180" in the above sense, where does sex stand? Do you continue your sexual relationship, or act disinterested there too?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

How would your second question even be relevant based on what you said about sex in your first question?


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> How would your second question even be relevant based on what you said about sex in your first question?


In the sense of trying to get it, or keeping the possibility open.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

brownmale said:


> In the sense of trying to get it, or keeping the possibility open.


Well, I guess if that's what is primarily important to you (over things like emotional attachment, her stopping the insults, etc.) you could accept her advances if she makes them with nothing else changing.....I wouldn't, though.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Well, I guess if that's what is primarily important to you (over things like emotional attachment, her stopping the insults, etc.) you could accept her advances if she makes them with nothing else changing.....I wouldn't, though.


For a guy, getting access to sex is probably more important than his ego. If the option is not divorce (last choice, avoidable) or an affair, then what?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

brownmale said:


> For a guy, getting access to sex is probably more important than his ego. If the option is not divorce (last choice, avoidable) or an affair, then what?


Is it more important than emotional connection and treating each other with kindness? Meaning, if the sex was great but there was still no emotional connection or kindness, would you be OK with things?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

brownmale said:


> (1) Can it be applied in a situation where the spouse hasn't actually had an affair, but has just pulled out emotional from a marriage? Where she won't give you sex, doesn't bother how you feel, keeps on insulting,* and threatens divorce?*
> 
> (2) If you're implementing "180" in the above sense, where does sex stand? Do you continue your sexual relationship, or act disinterested there too?


What are her reasons behind wanting a divorce?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

brownmale said:


> (1) Can it be applied in a situation where the spouse hasn't actually had an affair, but has just pulled out emotional from a marriage? Where she won't give you sex, doesn't bother how you feel, keeps on insulting, and threatens divorce?
> 
> (2) If you're implementing "180" in the above sense, where does sex stand? Do you continue your sexual relationship, or act disinterested there too?


Some questions for you:

Why is she threatening divorce? Were there issues she brought up previous to pulling away emotionally?

How are you trying to have a sexual relationship with someone who is insulting you? Is the sex worth more than your self esteem? Or do you use sex as a means of validation of yourself?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> (1) Can it be applied in a situation where the spouse hasn't actually had an affair, but has just pulled out emotional from a marriage? Where she won't give you sex, doesn't bother how you feel, keeps on insulting, and threatens divorce?


If your spouse has pulled away emotionally and you do the 180, you might as well file for divorce now and just move on.

The purpose of the 180 to get the person to lose their emotional connection to their spouse. So if you want to end your marriage, go for it.



brownmale said:


> (2) If you're implementing "180" in the above sense, where does sex stand? Do you continue your sexual relationship, or act disinterested there too?


No, with the 180 that you are talking about, you do not have a sexual relationship because you are ending the relationship.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> For a guy, getting access to sex is probably more important than his ego. If the option is not divorce (last choice, avoidable) or an affair, then what?


Then you actually work on fixing your marriage.

You talk with your wife, find out what her needs are and you start meeting them.


A wife does not give her husband sex. Perhaps this attitude about sex is part of the problem.

In a good marriage it's called making love, it's mutual. In a long term relationship, emotional intimacy as to exist before a woman will want sex with her SO/husband.

So lets look at the level of emotional intimacy in your relationship.

How many hours a week do you and your wife spend together, just the two of you, doing things that you both enjoy?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I think you really need to read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover. Also visit the support forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

brownmale said:


> For a guy, getting access to sex is probably more important than his ego.


My husband would never think like this.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks, Thor. That was helpful.

Some of the answers so far seem to be focussing on what I should be expecting of my partner, and what I should be willing to do to her.

I agree that the common Western perception today is: if you can't get on, have great sex, etc. just divorce each other. Your happiness is most important. Nothing else matters. It's good for the kids. Etc. Etc.

Unfortunately, I don't see it that way. We have kids, I've invested 20 of the best years of my life into this, been a great dad (even she concedes), etc. Because someone else has lost an interest in sex, should I go about paying the price for it? Alimony, the anger of my children for "breaking" the family myself, the loss of access to them, having to start from the scratch again (when I want to invest the rest of my life into something bigger and more meaningful than just a relationship with a single human being), financial ruin?

If I could get a somewhat better behaved partner, with access to basic, plain vanilla sex maybe twice a week, I'm willing to settle for it. I don't have any illusions that another relationship, another marriage would be very hot and filled with sex for moire than 2-3 years.

It is not true that "The purpose of the 180 to get the person to lose their emotional connection to their spouse. So if you want to end your marriage, go for it."@EleGirl

On the contrary: "I remember when I first heard about the concept of the 180. I actually thought it was a really stupid idea. I was so codependent and wrapped up in him that it felt like the completely wrong thing to do. I thought I would be pushing him away, putting on a façade when I was asking for more honesty and openness, and making myself seem cold-hearted. Now I understand that the 180 is not about that. It’s about protecting yourself. It’s about finding yourself. It’s about enjoying who you are without the other person. It’s about not getting sucked into unnecessary drama. These are all healthy steps no matter if you ultimately stay together or go your own ways." https://beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com/the-180/

Also: "180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive." Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums

Okay, so please don't judge me for what I'm willing to settle for. Don't compare me to what you would do; I'm not you. If you could give an answer within an understanding of the-180, I'd be grateful.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Thanks, Thor. That was helpful.
> 
> Some of the answers so far seem to be focussing on what I should be expecting of my partner, and what I should be willing to do to her.
> 
> ...


You talked about doing the 180 that is published for use by a person whose spouse is in the middle of an affair. 

Yes the purpose of THAT 180 is to is to help the BS pull away until the WS gives up the affair. If the WS never gives up the affair, then they BS is well on their way to exiting the marriage. Yes it makes the BS feel stronger. It's not for the me to appear stronger but to actually become stronger emotionally.

If you were to read the book "Divorce Busting" you will see that the actual concept of the 180 goes way beyond that of the 180 people post here for the BS. 

The idea of the 180 is really for YOU, to start doing things completely different from what your spouse expects. 180 degrees different.

For example, if you spend no quality time with your wife most of the time. You start doing that.. you ask her out on dates. 

IF a person never goes out without their spouse, then start going out once every so often.

If a person is a couch potato, over weight, etc. They start losing weight, working out, etc.

These sorts of changes have a two prong effect. One is that you start to improve yourself as a person and as a partner. Two... your change in behavior gets your spouse's attention. they will become curious about what the hey is going on with you.

Now were, except in the 180 for a BS who is waiting for an affair to end, does the 180 say to ignore, not talk to, etc. their spouse.

So that person talking about the 180 they did was probably not talking about the 180 that is always linked to here on TAM. It's a much more nuanced thing.

In the end, if you want to have your wife *gives *you sex.. forget it. No woman wants to be in a relationship where she services a man. What women want is to make look. Making love starts long before the start of sex. It starts with emotional intimacy.

So if you want a good love life with your wife, you will need to build a good love life, which includes non-sexual intimacy (aka emotional intimacy).

Sure you are not 100% responsible for the problems in your marriage or for fixing it. But you are the one who is here asking. So we cannot tell your wife what might help. We can only talk to you. One of you is going to have to let down your guard and be the first one to make the changes. At this point they might be unilateral changes. But that works too.

Or you can just stay too proud to try some things that work most of the time.

I get the impression that you are blowing up off because we are women. So why not read what it from a man who has been saving marriages like yours for decades. Since your wife is so far out the door, I suggest that you start with "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Harley. I know there is no affair. It does not matter the same dynamic is going on.

After that read "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". Also by Dr. Harley.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Personal said:


> I find it rather ironic that brownmale has cheated on his wife for at least one circa 4 year affair, yet he wants to 180 her.
> 
> Ewwww!


Yep.. he sort of left out that iddy biddy detail it seems.

He also left out this detail:



brownmale said:


> There must be some ways of at least convincing them to meet some of your needs...
> 
> I've spoken to her, told her what I feel... asked her if she's really serious when she says I could get my needs met elsewhere... Shown an interest in other women (just to make her jealous, which works!)
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale what does your wife know about your 3-4 year affair?

Was that the only affair you have had?


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Personal said:


> I find it rather ironic that brownmale has cheated on his wife for at least one circa 4 year affair, yet he wants to 180 her.
> 
> Ewwww!


It wasn't "cheating". She was so disinterested in sex, that she told me to "find someone else". Which I did....


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Yep.. he sort of left out that iddy biddy detail it seems.
> 
> He also left out this detail:


So if you're not getting sex where you're supposed to get it (within a marriage) and getting it outside (even with a go-ahead) is a terrible thing to do, where is someone badly deprived of sex supposed to get it?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> It wasn't "cheating". She was so disinterested in sex, that she told me to "find someone else". Which I did....


Did she know that you were having an affair?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> So if you're not getting sex where you're supposed to get it (within a marriage) and getting it outside (even with a go-ahead) is a terrible thing to do, where is someone badly deprived of sex supposed to get it?


You have choices:

Get your wife into marriage counseling and perhaps even sex therapy with you to fix your marriage. Thus fixing your sex life.

You can blame it all on your wife, get no sex, and be miserable.

You can learn to live with it and love your wife.

You divorce.

You cheat.. or have affairs because your wife does not want sex.

You do not force someone to have sex with you.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Your recommendations seem rather culture-specific and you're perhaps going by what is acceptable in *your* society in the early 21st century.

On what do you find some choices acceptable and others not?

Couldn't someone else have a different sense of priorities?

Is an open-marriage an option in your scheme of things? Why or why not?



EleGirl said:


> You have choices:
> 
> Get your wife into marriage counseling and perhaps even sex therapy with you to fix your marriage. Thus fixing your sex life.
> 
> ...


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Personal said:


> Open marriage is fine as long as all partners are informed and consenting.
> 
> That being the case, I presume you're happy that your wife enjoys having sex with another man or perhaps likewise enjoys a smorgasbord of sexual delight with a plentiful variety of other men?
> 
> On the other hand marital infidelity (in other words having sex with others outside of ones marriage without informing one's spouse) is a vile, very repugnant and somewhat loathsome act.


This strikes me like a value judgement your making -- on one being acceptable the other taboo.

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander....


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

brownmale said:


> Okay, so please don't judge me for what I'm willing to settle for. Don't compare me to what you would do; I'm not you. If you could give an answer within an understanding of the-180, I'd be grateful.


I'm not judging you for being willing to settle for that. My point is that your wife likely KNOWS that and resents it because she is more than just a vagina. If the only part of her you REALLY care about it that body part, she's going to resent it and not want you to have it until you can also appreciate her brain, her compassion for others, whatever her good qualities are. 

You also only further reinforce this by raping her.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

brownmale said:


> So if you're not getting sex where you're supposed to get it (within a marriage) and getting it outside (even with a go-ahead) is a terrible thing to do, where is someone badly deprived of sex supposed to get it?


If your wife agrees to an open marriage, you can go get it anywhere you want. It isn't cheating, though for many people an open marriage without love at home isn't a real marriage either.

It all comes down to your own integrity and your own boundaries. For me, I could not cheat on my wife. As far as boundaries, or deal breakers, that can be a really tough one. There are priorities to balance against each other.

Children, finances, retirement, social considerations, sex, love, etc are various needs or priorities. Imo, you are unable to resolve your priorities. That is, for you sex is highly important, but so are finances and your kids. You can't reconcile a clear priority order, so you step out of the marriage for the sex in order to avoid harming the others. Though in reality you are certainly risking the others. What if your kids found out about your affair? What if your wife decided she was done with you due to the affair (which she seemingly suggested was ok before) and divorced you, thus harming your finances?

I think if you reconcile your priorities and then discuss them with her, you will get to a resolution which does not cause you ongoing endless distress. Perhaps she says she would be totally happy with an open marriage in order for everyone to enjoy a better financial situation. Perhaps she says nfw to open marriage, and nfw to sex with you. And maybe that will give you the clarity to either divorce her or to accept a sexless marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> Your recommendations seem rather culture-specific and you're perhaps going by what is acceptable in *your* society in the early 21st century.
> 
> On what do you find some choices acceptable and others not?
> 
> ...


Sure add an open marriage to the list. If your wife is 100% aware of what your doing, it's an open marriage. If she is not, it's cheating. In both cases it's legally adultery even in non-western cultures.

I live in the USA today. I have not always lived in the USA as I was brought up largely in 3rd world countries.

It does not matter what culture you are in the things I listed are accurate.

Some cultures do not see marital rape and/or forcing a wife to have sex as illegal. However, even in those societies, it affects women the same way. I've spoken to women in other cultures who had this happen to them. It will make your wife more and more repulsed with having sex with you. 

Do your wife have the legal option of initiating divorce where you live? Does she work outside the home and/or have the option to find a good job that would support her? Or doe she have to stay with you for either legal reasons, financial reasons, strong social bias against divorce, or any combination of those?

Maybe that's part of the problem she wants a divorce but cannot really get one.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

My 2 cents to the OP. First I think you have gotten some good advice so far. 

However, to answer your questions (sort of as I am not going to discuss open marriages or cheating). I was in a SSM where my LD wife refused to have sex with me. I did an MWD 180, actually several of them. One was stopping to pressure her for sex. Another was to tell her I was no longer going to engage in sex with her if she used it to emotionally hurt me, as I was worth more respect than that. 

Then later I told her that I needed to be touched and feel loved by her. Since he had told me that the reason she didn't touch was because she was afraid if she touched me I would demand sex, I told her that I wasn't going to have sex with her no matter what for 3 months, so that she could have the freedom and safety to know that any touching she did would not result in sex.

My wife was very angry with me, with held sex and used it as an emotional weapon. Whenever she felt like making love to me or just afterwards she would cause a fight to regain her emotional distance and hatred for me.

With the help of a good sex therapist, Glover's Book NMMNG, MWD's Book the SSM, Chapman's the 5 Languages of Love, we were able to rebuild our marriage. 

So, yes, 180's can work. They require you to really grow and step out of your normal character. But they do change the interpersonal dynamic and force the other person to interact with you in a different way. As I increased the intensity of my 180's, my wife could no longer use sex as a weapon against me. She had to start relating to me in a totally different way.

Ultimately, the sex therapist asked my wife if she thought we would get divorced if we never had sex again. My wife admitted that it was possible. The therapist asked me if I had thought about divorce. I said that yes, I had and that I intended to be in a loving relationship by a certain birthday either with my wife or divorced from my wife and with someone else. The sex therapist then told my wife that she alone had a choice and would need to live with the consequences, sex or divorce? My wife choose to rebuild our marriage.

Good luck to you.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Some cultures do not see marital rape and/or forcing a wife to have sex as illegal. However, even in those societies, *it affects women the same way*. I've spoken to women in other cultures who had this happen to them. *It will make your wife more and more repulsed *with having sex with you.


YES. THIS. 

:iagree:


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks, this is such a useful and insightful response... Just the kind of tips I was looking for!



Young at Heart said:


> My 2 cents to the OP. First I think you have gotten some good advice so far.
> 
> However, to answer your questions (sort of as I am not going to discuss open marriages or cheating). I was in a SSM where my LD wife refused to have sex with me. I did an MWD 180, actually several of them. One was stopping to pressure her for sex. Another was to tell her I was no longer going to engage in sex with her if she used it to emotionally hurt me, as I was worth more respect than that.
> 
> ...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

brownmale said:


> Thanks, this is such a useful and insightful response... Just the kind of tips I was looking for!


One of the points I accidently left out, that MWD stresses, is that you cannot force your wife to change or to do anything she really doesn't want to do.

Ultimately, your W has to choose marriage and making a marriage work. You can't demand that of her. All you can do is give he options, change yourself for the better (so she can see that it is possible, i.e. being a role model for her), and give her an emotionally safe and loving environment in which she can push her own boundaries to experiment with changing herself.

The point is, as imporant as 180's are, they are not done to trick or manipulate your partner, they are done because you have changed who you are, what you need, and how you will allow yourself to be treated. You need to change yourself and your imperfections first and over months demonstrate to your W that you are a new you. Then, you can do 180's to change the dynamic between you. 

However, she gets to choose that new dynamic, you can't. When I told me wife I would give her the space she claimed she needed to allow her to touch me without feeling pressured for sex, she didn't believe me for a couple months. Then she gradually got on board. She needed to feel safe, cherished and loved before she could open up her armor that she used to protect herself emotionally.

Good luck to you and your wife. I really recommend some professional help with a good marriage councelor and sex therapist.


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