# Is hard evidence important if goal is to *save* the marriage?



## osavo (Oct 17, 2010)

So, I pretty much know she's cheating. She was sloppy about some messages and I could see her history of picking up the OM and bringing him to our house... while I'm away on business travel.

They never explicitly say in these messages that they 'did it', but the thread leaves little doubt.

I love her, even still. But most important are our kids. They are fantastic, sweet, smart, talented children. We regularly look at them, then look at each other and express/agree how blessed we are with them.

She doesn't know that I know. I'll have to confront her so we can work through this. Question: should I wait to get some good, hard evidence (audio recording, video) or is that only needed in divorce court?

Also, I know there are more details in her email, but I believe it would be illegal to tap/access her account without her permission.

Any suggestions?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It is important to have this evidence, b/c you may need this to show others if she decides to leave, you will have proof just incase she needs to lie about your actions. you can prove other wise.

I also believe that when it is time to confront her you will beable to show her how shameful, embarrassing, humiliating it is with out denial. 

It also validated your feels of betrayal, it will be hard for her to say "we're just friend" or " you're crazy and need help" or " you are insecure and I'd never do that'.

Gathering evidence is very important and be quite about it. When the time is right you can leave her copies of your findings and let it soak in while you go to the next step in your plan.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

You definitely need it. Most often when a cheating spouse is confronted, they will deny the affair. They will even make you question your own sanity and have doubts. With rock solid evidence, you have no doubts. You are then in a position to make demands which will have positive results.


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## osavo (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback.
Silly question, I know, but should I be concerned about any legalities in 'spying', or recording without consent?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't now, but I did it and I,m not in jail
Go for it!


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## MrDude (Jun 21, 2010)

You definitely need hard evidence.

I wouldn't worry about going through her email, but if you are worried about it give a lawyer a call, they might answer your question without a charge. 
If you read through these posts you will see story after story where the betrayed spouse did just that, or used a keylogger or some other tool to get evidence.


Good luck.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

osavo said:


> So, I pretty much know she's cheating. She was sloppy about some messages and I could see her history of picking up the OM and bringing him to our house... while I'm away on business travel.
> 
> They never explicitly say in these messages that they 'did it', but the thread leaves little doubt.
> 
> ...


When you confront the issue with your wife it’s more or less guaranteed that she will lie to you, blame you and deny anything ever happened. And her "story" will continually change. You will need the hard evidence to maintain your sanity during this time.

Bob


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I would personally rather help a woman pack than to compel her to stay with me against her will. If she is having an affair, you don't decide whether this marriage survives or not. You can only decide whether you are willing to continue trying. She is apparently the one who has stepped out of bounds and only she can decide to come back. You can hunt around and get the best evidence. You can confront her with it. Maybe she tells the truth or not. Maybe she actually cuts off the affair and maybe she just blows smoke up your backside and continues the affair more discreetly. Maybe she ends this one and in a few months starts another. The affair is not the problem. It's a symptom of a problem.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Without proof, she'll deny it and you won't be able to contradict her. Especially when trying to save the marriage, you need the proof. 

You don't necessarily need audio/video/pictures to prove it. Just something that leaves little doubt. An email that makes it rather clear that they have been intimate will do the trick. 

I would be cautious in how you approach her in terms of telling her you want to save the marriage. I wouldn't lay all your cards on the table at once, as it will give her the advantage. If you had knowledge that someone was going to forgive you for your wrongdoing even before you confessed, what would compel you to be honest, or to change? Nothing really. 

Good luck!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I would personally rather help a woman pack than to compel her to stay with me against her will. If she is having an affair, you don't decide whether this marriage survives or not. You can only decide whether you are willing to continue trying. She is apparently the one who has stepped out of bounds and only she can decide to come back. You can hunt around and get the best evidence. You can confront her with it. Maybe she tells the truth or not. Maybe she actually cuts off the affair and maybe she just blows smoke up your backside and continues the affair more discreetly. Maybe she ends this one and in a few months starts another. The affair is not the problem. It's a symptom of a problem.


I reckon he needs hard evidence so he can come to his eventual conclusions and judgements.

Otherwise he’s dealing with hearsay and circumstantial evidence. Unlike a law court as individuals we play the roles of prosecutor, defender, witnesses, judge and jury all in one so to speak. And like a law court we need hard evidence, not circumstantial evidence and hearsay to make our judgements and announce our verdict and sentence.

Without that hard evidence we will never truly “know” and will always be left with doubt in our mind.

Bob


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## russ101 (Jan 8, 2010)

Go away on "business" again and have a motion activated recorder set up in the house secretly (have them in a couple of rooms if possible, not just the bedroom). This would be pretty hard evidence to deny, otherwise just like all the other posters have stated, she will almost always deny it and make you feel like you are crazy. You also need to get to the root of why she is having the affair in the first place. There are almost certainly problems that need to be addressed.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Just for a frame of reference here is a link to the Electronic Surveillance Laws in every state in the USA. 

It's my understanding that you can not record her phone calls without her or the OP's permission. You can record a phone call YOU make to her in some states, because YOU would be party to the call and you would give your own permission. It's my understanding regarding looking at her email account or adding a keylogger that if it is a PC in your home, and you pay the internet bill in your name, and it's a public email like hotmail or gmail, then you would be considered a family member of the owner and it's legal to look. For example, my own Dear Hubby and I bought his PC and mine, it's in our home, we pay the bill together--if he looked at my @gmail account he has the right to do that. If it is NOT a PC bought with family funds, or it's not in your home, or the internet bill is not in your name and it's a private email with the ISP (like she has Comcast internet in her name and pays that bill...and it's her @comcast.net email account)...well that would be more shaky legal ground. 

You can go the route of a voice-activated recorder in her car but it would not be admissible in court. It would only prove it to you. 

You can go the route of attaching a GPS device to her car, but that would also not be admissible in court. What WOULD be admissible would be if you can track her cell phone, the cell phone is in your (or both of your) names, and you just look up her location on the cellphone's website as a matter of public record...while you're also looking at the cell bill for the amount of texts, dialing a certain phone number for thousands of minutes, etc. 

For some practical tips on gathering evidence in a low-tech way I like these suggestions: 


Keep a journal of your spouse’s reported activities. Write down the times, dates, places, other people involved, excuses given, etc. Your journal will become invaluable as you compare what’s said with phone bills, credit card statements, atm withdrawals, talk to other people, etc. A cheating spouse is likely to change his or her story, or question your memory, so keeping a record of everything is critical.
Keep track of all incoming phone calls. Record the time and number of all calls.
Plan a surprise visit to work, or come home at unexpected times, or make announcements about having to work late, but then come home early, etc.
Keep track of your spouse’s mileage, receipts, credit card statements, atm withdrawals, phone records, etc.
If you can, check your spouse’s call log. Look for an unusual amount of phone calls. Keep in mind that cheating spouses often store their lover’s phone number under someone else’s name: a friend, a co-worker, etc.

But the most important tip of all: 
Never confront your spouse until you're certain that you have enough evidence to make your case. And never reveal all of your evidence at once. Most cheating spouses will try to concoct a story to fit the evidence presented. But, if you withhold some evidence, and let your spouse create a story, it gives you the opportunity to use the remaining evidence as leverage. And by strategically withholding evidence, your spouse will start to question exactly how much you know, increasing the odds that he or she will tell you the truth.

I personally do not think it is necessary to get a photo of them "doing it" per se, because I have known of disloyal spouses caught in the act who say "It's not what it looks like" as they put their clothes back on! What I do think is necessary is to have enough evidence that not only are you convinced (which is now) but when she throws her explanations at you, there is no self-doubt or self-blame. I guarantee she will try to deny it and/or try to blame you with something like "You're just paranoid" or "You have a jealousy issue." So once you're crossed that threshold, I would move on to confronting her with statements--don't necessarily show her evidence. Just state that you know she's committing adultery, that you have proof so blame and denial are not necessary, and that you ask her to end her affair and return to the marriage so you two can work on fixing the issues.


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## kmaddie (Oct 20, 2010)

You only need the hard evidence TO CONVINCE YOURSELF. Do it for that reason, and that reason only. Its not illegal to cheat on your spouse, in most states (I think that true - in some it still is!).


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

AC, 
My ADD prevented me from reading the entire post, so you may or may not have a opinion on what I'm about to type. (You are always right on so thats... that)

kmaddie, 
I believe there are several reasons for hard evidence, but the unpopular one would be.... for shock value( thats just me).

I believe it shines a light on the dark, imoral, ambarassing, and humiliating behavior of adultary.
Do we really know how much we text until we see the bill? Do we ever know how long we've talked to some until we hang up? Do they really know how bad it looks when their naked picture is printed out and handed to them?

I quess for some type this could have a positive effect on there actions, and for others probably nothing, the fog would be to thick for those types.


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## osavo (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks for all the input. Lots of good advice here.
Again, my ultimate goal here is to mend the marriage... that is, if she is interested in the same. We've had a number of discussions this week. She still does not know that I know, but she does know that I'm unhappy with receiving *no* affection from her.

Re: why is she having an affair? what is the cause of this symptom?
A couple of years ago (shortly before she started looking outside the marriage) she asked me what I thought of us seeing a marriage counselor. In response I suggested that 1) we could work out any problems we have without paying a counselor, 2) I was perfectly happy with her (so we didn;t need counseling), and 3) if she's unhappy she shouldn't blame me for her unhappiness. Now, on that #3, I can't imagine ever saying that, but that is her perception so it might as well be truth.

Re: confronting her
I've met with several people on this. My pastor, a lawyer, a friend, and a marriage councelor. Wild differences on how each would approach this.

In the end, I realize it would be most helpful to both of us if she openly admits the affair without being called to the mat. (I know, not likely.) Well, I have asked her to see the counselor on her own, then we would start having sessions together. After a couple of these (if we get that far) we may have to decide that she's been given a fair chance to confess. I could trust her more that way, and she might actually feel enough remorse/regret to continue or restart.

Re: hard evidence
Pastor friend says it's not needed. Just simply saying "I know" and being solid in that stance is enough. He's also of the opinion to offer no defense (Matthew 6:v38-42). Showing disarmed compassion throughout could keep her from leaving, or inspire her to come back.

Lawyer says the evidence would not help me with custody, and likely would not help me in a 'no fault'. If ironclad, it would help me if I choose to divorce her for adultry. However, that process is what tears families apart (and it probably costs more than our collective self-worth anyway!)

Personally, I agree with most of the posters here, in that I need it to anchor myself in the reality that this is indeed happening.

I do have another trip coming up. And at this point I think I can fairly easily know if they use that opportunity to defile the house that I built. What's interesting is that I asked, begged, insisted that she make that appointment with the counselor. She was defensive to the point of being angry. She still thinks this is just to fix our marriage and that I don't know about her affair. She complained that she simply does not have time.

it'll be *very* interesting (and disappointing) if she found time to hook up with her lover while I'm away rather, but can't find time to see the counselor.


Clearly, this is a very delicate situation, and sadly the lives of our wonderful children are truly the most significant things at stake. Keeping that in mind, I can be patient enough to resolve this gently (if at all possible).


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

osavo, it sound like you have a plan so work the plan.
You, my friend have enlighted me with regard to evidence so thank you. 

I really stinks that there are so many ways to confront a cheating spouse. I like the way osavo is approaching this. He is a patient spouse waiting for the right time.
I hope it pays off.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Pastor friend says it's not needed. Just simply saying "I know" and being solid in that stance is enough. He's also of the opinion to offer no defense (Matthew 6:v38-42). Showing disarmed compassion throughout could keep her from leaving, or inspire her to come back.


Your friend is pretty much right on the money - with one caveat: simply being solid in a stance and saying "I know" must also coincide with the truth, otherwise it damages you -which is why we suggest making sure you have enough evidence for yourself that you are certain of the reality and are not simply making things up.

As for confronting your wife: not sure which verses to which you refer (there ain't no Math 6:38-42) - do know what you are _intending_ though. And I'd like to add one more thing: combine the passage to which you do refer with Matt 18:15-17. 

Putting both together gives you the _correct_ way to deal with any situation. And also the most effective - both from the point of the relationship and your own personal growth.

Don't let things go too long - don't let a brother 'continue in sin' until it consumes him: we are to "...let the word of Christ dwell in [us] richly as [we] teach and admonish one another with all wisdom,..." (Col 3:16) - and "...I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another..." (Romans 15:14). Part of your 'duty' as a spouse is to help your spouse grow morally (that is her duty to you as well..) 

Keep up the good work.


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## osavo (Oct 17, 2010)

My bad, top of the page says "Matthew 6", but v38-42 were actually at the tail end of Matthew 5. Good catch, and thanks for the additional verses. I've been grappling with the idea of letting her volunteer her actions in counseling vs. confronting her. vs15-17 seem pretty clear about that.

Definitely, thanks for the feedback!


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I'd say that the two passages are not about the same idea: in the first instance (resisting the impulse to repay) the idea is that it is not acceptable to do something to someone just because they did it to you. This is actually pretty common error - you'll get advice, even on this site, that one thing you can do to 'wake your spouse up' is to go out and be unfaithful yourself -let them get a taste of their own medicine. 

Two things wrong with that: first, evil is evil - it does not become good when it is used to punish someone. Second, using that sort of technique sets a precedent: next time you do something wrong, you have established a pattern allowing your partner to hurt you in return - which means you hurt back. An 'eye for an eye' mindset destroys any sane relationship quickly. 

It is one thing to be willing to turn the other cheek when someone slights you - it is something else to rob them because they robbed you!

The passage in Matthew 18 is a very specific method of addressing the immoral actions of a brother (in Christian terminology, a brother is a fellow Christian, whereas a neighbor is an unbeliever). This passage gives a guideline on how to handle a specific problem: one where a brother is specifically sinning. In your case, it would be direct infidelity - the breaking of the marriage vow. 

This approach works on so many levels. It is the moral way to handle the situation - and it's why we use it as the model for our "Seven Steps" on our website.

By all means, if she is willing to face and work on her behavior in counseling, then she is on the right path. But this almost NEVER happens unless the behavior itself is brought to light - people who are busy sinning don't usually spend a lot of time repenting. The two concepts tend to negate one another. So we get the advice from Scripture to 'confront' and 'extort' one another. "...You must warn each other every day, while it is still "today," so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God...." Heb 3:13, NLT.


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