# Choice of men



## southbound

I know this has been asked and covered a thousand times, but it never ceases to amaze me why some women who are attractive, nice, and have a good job will marry a jerk when there are decent men around. I just don’t get it. The reason this is on my mind is because I know of three women in the last couple of months who fit that description, and they are getting divorced. I know them through work but knew nothing of their marriage, but I knew they were nice women. When I asked some people what happened, they all said they were married to butts. I must say I was shocked. I assumed they were married to some great guys, but apparently not.

I also don’t understand why some women don’t go for a decent man based on their looks and personality. For example, I know a lady who has two kids she brings to school. Granted, she probably doesn’t work on Wall Street, but she’s very attractive and has a sweet personality. I found out she was married to a lazy bum who stays in jail a lot from doing drugs. I’m thinking, “What the heck are you doing married to that kind of guy?” 

My cousin works at an auto factory, and he says he knows several women who work there that are attractive and as nice as can be, and they are married to men who don’t work. One even said her husband told her she might have to take a second job if they got in a bind, and she’s still with him. 

That’s all well and good if it weren’t for the fact that there are still a few decent, nice looking men out there, but for whatever reason, women tend to act like they have the plague or something. I guess the reason some topics get brought up over and over is because there never seems to be a good explanation for what seems like weird behavior. Does anyone have any insight on this situation?


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## brooklynAnn

Because they get suckered by the bad boy fun loving ******* and think they can change him.

Or. They were sold a bunch of baloney before marriage and after that the bum came out.


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## Elizabeth001

brooklynAnn said:


> Because they get suckered by the bad boy fun loving ******* and think they can change him.
> 
> 
> 
> Or. They were sold a bunch of baloney before marriage and after that the bum came out.




Second paragraph. 


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## Faithful Wife

It is the same way when decent men get with women who are a horrible person. Then they won't/can't let her go even when she has raked him over the coals for years.

Also - all the great husbands around TAM who have wives who literally don't want to have sex with them and when they do, it is starfish or "hurry up and get it over with". 

Why do people stay in bad relationships? Why do people pick partners who are unhealthy in various ways? Why do people allow themselves to be treated poorly yet still love the person treating them poorly?

This isn't just a woman thing. People make choices that the rest of us will never understand because we are not them.


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## Marc878

Codependency. 

I've seen this on both sides. Amazes me but it happens.


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## john117

Not quite this simple.

Relationships don't go south overnight. I had 25 decent to good years. The last 10... Not so good. Lots of "investment". Children. Property. Careers.

If my kids were ho-hum students and planned for ho-hum careers I would have considered leaving earlier. But given their abilities and motivation, a few years of suboptimal relationship versus fully funded college accounts... 

The other side knows it too. And you reach a point where you both know it's done. Better quit when you're both ahead. Meanwhile do your homework and mentally prepare.

That's all there is to it.


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## SunCMars

From what I have seen, from what I know, I think I know.....

The good men get taken, get snapped up before their feet hit the ground, before they leave footprints in the sand.

The rest are 'not so' good men. 

Yes, there are good men who are gun-shy. honey-shy.

The same good men who realize that the ocean is full of lady fish. 

Of these, all or most smell good.

Most of the ladies are tasty, but are not keepers.

Most of the men are less than tasty, but better than bland, better than no man.
Or, so it seems.

Both men and women are freshly or distantly out of relationships.
They see no hurry to tie themselves down, tie themselves to any with excess baggage.

The men seem to be looking for Ms. Perfect. A low mileage gal with plenty of miles left 'in her'.
A gal with plenty of 'smiles to the gallon'. 

Those great gals. They are the competition. They too, get taken, rapidly.

Good men are spoiled.
Less than good men are soiled. 

Unfortunately, the less than good outnumber the good by ten to one. 
Or, so it seems.

People who are alone after forty are alone for a reason.
A good reason or a bad one.

Men, likely for less than good reasons.
Or, so it seems.

Loneliness makes good people make bad choices. 

Having a sweet demeanor, lots of empathy; having a forgiving nature is a sure recipe for making poor picking decisions.
Tis' tryin' to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.


The Typist I- from his archived notes.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

I'm not a woman but I'm a lifelong researcher of them. I know I will catch hell for this , but nice guys don't really do it for women. They all say the want a nice guy, but that isn't really true. They want a man that makes their nether regions tingle. This is less about being nice, than knowing how to build the attraction. Nice guys think they can earn a way to a woman's heart by pretending to be asexual and then they end up friendzoned. You might want to check out the 'Rational Man' books. If you take nothing from them, atleast they are interesting and helped to start a whole online movement.


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## Wolf1974

You’re looking at this wrong. These women you speak of you assume to be wonderful human beings. But wonderful people don’t seek out crap. Water reaches a level onto itself. Those women going off with crappy guys get what they want even if they say they don’t. They generally love the drama. The right woman, a good woman, will wait to find a good man.

Men do the same thing. I think with age most of us move past this point of seeking toxic. But as you can tell some never will


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## sokillme

southbound said:


> I know this has been asked and covered a thousand times, but it never ceases to amaze me why some women who are attractive, nice, and have a good job will marry a jerk when there are decent men around. I just don’t get it. The reason this is on my mind is because I know of three women in the last couple of months who fit that description, and they are getting divorced. I know them through work but knew nothing of their marriage, but I knew they were nice women. When I asked some people what happened, they all said they were married to butts. I must say I was shocked. I assumed they were married to some great guys, but apparently not.
> 
> I also don’t understand why some women don’t go for a decent man based on their looks and personality. For example, I know a lady who has two kids she brings to school. Granted, she probably doesn’t work on Wall Street, but she’s very attractive and has a sweet personality. I found out she was married to a lazy bum who stays in jail a lot from doing drugs. I’m thinking, “What the heck are you doing married to that kind of guy?”
> 
> My cousin works at an auto factory, and he says he knows several women who work there that are attractive and as nice as can be, and they are married to men who don’t work. One even said her husband told her she might have to take a second job if they got in a bind, and she’s still with him.
> 
> That’s all well and good if it weren’t for the fact that there are still a few decent, nice looking men out there, but for whatever reason, women tend to act like they have the plague or something. I guess the reason some topics get brought up over and over is because there never seems to be a good explanation for what seems like weird behavior. Does anyone have any insight on this situation?


Occam's razor man - because they want to. There are just a lot of screwed up people out there. Being attractive or hard working doesn't make you any less screwed up or help you make good choices. Or make you a good choice as well. If you date these chicks you would probably see soon enough that they were screwed up. Looking good just blinds you to that fact. I also think attractive women are prayed upon at a young age and lots of times if they are not protected there first experience can be with these ****ty most of the time older men. Kind of sets the pattern. Also don't assume that you know what is attractive to women or they think like us. That has been getting us into trouble for years.


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## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I'm not a woman but I'm a lifelong researcher of them. I know I will catch hell for this , but nice guys don't really do it for women. They all say the want a nice guy, but that isn't really true. They want a man that makes their nether regions tingle. This is less about being nice, than knowing how to build the attraction. Nice guys think they can earn a way to a woman's heart by pretending to be asexual and then they end up friendzoned. You might want to check out the 'Rational Man' books. If you take nothing from them, atleast they are interesting and helped to start a whole online movement.


Yep, this is true. A lot of it is just plain assertiveness. Doesn't mean you have to be a jerk though.


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## Blondilocks

For the same reason some men will pass right by the healthy, pretty girl next door and go straight for the smokin' hot batcrapcrazy floozie. It gets their motor running.


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## 269370

I have wondered that as well. Sometimes opposites attract. And sometimes you can’t tell the ins and outs and what people are like inside a relationship. It’s possible that the sweet girl next door is actually a psychopath once you get to know her properly in a relationship or vice versa.


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## SunCMars

Blondilocks said:


> For the same reason some men will pass right by the healthy, pretty girl next door and go straight for the smokin' hot batcrapcrazy floozie. It gets their motor running.


Yes, but one would think 'after forty' they would see the errors of their ways. And make better choices.

I guess it is now after fifty.

Most, at this, that age, cannot go faster than fifty, even down hill. 

Patience is a virtue, requiring virtue, a catch too-too, oh so sad.

Too-too sad
....................................................................

The other thing, the other factor....

Taking a date, then holding them as stop gap.
Making them temporary fare. 
Making them temporary long term.

Painting over, overlooking the chips, the dents, the jagged edges of this, their now overripe date.

When the date finally falls off the tree, it adheres tightly, cannot be scraped free.
It's juices stick like glue, the color tainting all that it touches.

At the end, the dried fruit is painfully plucked from the pickers skin, taking away flesh, leaving a hole, then a scar.

The trick is to find a plum, not a prune, not a prude.
Find a fruit still green, not one fermenting , not one off-gassing.



The Typist II- from the archives.


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## minimalME

I've written about this in other posts, and I seem to be in the minority, but I find modern dating dehumanizing - so this past December, I opted out. 

Sometimes it is lonely, but there were many days I felt lonely in my marriage.

It's taken me a long time, but I'm finally clear with myself about what I want and don't want in my life. And if I'm on my own from here on out, then I've made my peace with that.


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## southbound

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I'm not a woman but I'm a lifelong researcher of them. I know I will catch hell for this , but nice guys don't really do it for women. They all say the want a nice guy, but that isn't really true. They want a man that makes their nether regions tingle. This is less about being nice, than knowing how to build the attraction. Nice guys think they can earn a way to a woman's heart by pretending to be asexual and then they end up friendzoned. You might want to check out the 'Rational Man' books. If you take nothing from them, atleast they are interesting and helped to start a whole online movement.


This must be as close to reality as it is. Nice guys just don’t do it for women, even though they wouldn’t verbally say that, which makes it more confusing. I can understand a biker woman who is into drugs would gravitate to a similar man, but I never understood a woman who wants a normal, productive wife wanting a bad boy. 

When a boy is raised to believe that being nice to women is what they like, that complicated things too.


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## Red Sonja

I am not into so-called bad boys, never have been and never will be. I think of bad boys as 13 year olds (emotionally) trapped in an adult male body, acting “bad” and showing off in an attempt to prove some warped concept of maleness. Yuck.

My definition of a nice guy is an emotionally mature male who knows the value of kindness, compassion and human connection and, has a purpose and hobbies in life that do not revolve around me. I want a partnership where both parties are loved and valued and, I do not want to become any man’s entire world. I’d give my right arm to find such a man where we also have mutual sexual chemistry (that is the “wild card”).

I did not marry young (30 years old) and I thought I had found such a man but it turns out it was all an act, a manipulation. This subject of this thread is neglectful in its accounting of those of us, like me, that were drawn in and fooled by a narcissist, psychopath or borderline. BTW people with strong traits of these disorders are estimated to be 10% of the general population (by experts).

My exH was one of those people, his “mask” came off right after the wedding and it took me quite a few years to figure out what was happening. It’s quite a mind-****, pray you never experience it.


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## Diana7

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I'm not a woman but I'm a lifelong researcher of them. I know I will catch hell for this , but nice guys don't really do it for women. They all say the want a nice guy, but that isn't really true. They want a man that makes their nether regions tingle. This is less about being nice, than knowing how to build the attraction. Nice guys think they can earn a way to a woman's heart by pretending to be asexual and then they end up friendzoned. You might want to check out the 'Rational Man' books. If you take nothing from them, atleast they are interesting and helped to start a whole online movement.


I must be different because a nice guy with good moral values, decency and integrity is very attractive to me. I will never understand why some women will marry men who drink too much, watch porn, cheat, are lazy, abusive or take drugs. They do though and they stay with him despite their appalling behaviour. They marry them despite knowing all this and then wonder why things are a mess. Duh.


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## sokillme

southbound said:


> This must be as close to reality as it is. Nice guys just don’t do it for women, even though they wouldn’t verbally say that, which makes it more confusing. I can understand a biker woman who is into drugs would gravitate to a similar man, but I never understood a woman who wants a normal, productive wife wanting a bad boy.
> 
> When a boy is raised to believe that being nice to women is what they like, that complicated things too.


Personally I hate nice guys. That is just another term for a passive aggressive guy who thinks he can nice a women into bed with him. Why would any women want that.

But lets talk about good men. Even that is not enough to ensure you are going to have someone want to be with you. I don't think that is how attraction works. 

I think it's safer to say being a good man is not the only primary reason women to want to have relationships with a guy. But then does being a nice women do if for us? Why should women be any different? I am not sure why anyone believed this in the first place, but I admit when i was in my teens I thought that too. Wish someone would have told me.

Look at it this way, if your wife cooks you a great wonderful dinner do you want to jump her bones? Do you want to in the same way if she sent you a dirty text and told you to come straight home?

The idea that being nice or good is a way to get women to want to be with us is something that Hollywood created, usually in movies written by men. I think it also was created in a time where there was fear of female sexuality. So yes that doesn't work. 

I think even healthy women still operate the way we do. They need to be attracted to want to go out with a guy, if you are good they may want to have a relationship with you. But no one is going out with you because you have a good job if you look like John Goodman. You have got to up your game. 

But just like some guys are willing to put of with an incredibly hot women who is sexy but also crazy (I know hot and crazy is very rare >). Some women are willing to overlook a looser guy if he hits the other points. 

So good men have to work on being attractive just like everyone else. Lift weights, learn about stuff so you have something to talk about, dress nice, have a good career, make some money. Then you can hit on all sides.

Also though there are a lot of crazy people out there. You can date and have fun with them but you don't marry them. And lots of people marry looser.


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## I shouldnthave

Blondilocks said:


> For the same reason some men will pass right by the healthy, pretty girl next door and go straight for the smokin' hot batcrapcrazy floozie. It gets their motor running.


Hahaha yeah - I was going to say, what about the really cool dudes I know who are shacked up with dimwhits with annoying personalities, or crazy in a number of ways that make their lives miserable - "but she's hot!" So they put up with it.



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I'm not a woman but I'm a lifelong researcher of them. I know I will catch hell for this , but nice guys don't really do it for women. They all say the want a nice guy, but that isn't really true. They want a man that makes their nether regions tingle. This is less about being nice, than knowing how to build the attraction. Nice guys think they can earn a way to a woman's heart by pretending to be asexual and then they end up friendzoned. .


I'll co-sign on this. I am not saying my husband is a jerk (far from it), but he didn't land me by being a "nice guy". He was agressive and clear in his pursuit of me. Had some classic alpha traits. 

I remember on our second date.... Saying oh really? My pants are coming off? Any other guy, I would have shut him down, but him? I liked it.... And as they say, the rest is history.


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## BioFury

southbound said:


> I know this has been asked and covered a thousand times, but it never ceases to amaze me why some women who are attractive, nice, and have a good job will marry a jerk when there are decent men around. I just don’t get it. The reason this is on my mind is because I know of three women in the last couple of months who fit that description, and they are getting divorced. I know them through work but knew nothing of their marriage, but I knew they were nice women. When I asked some people what happened, they all said they were married to butts. I must say I was shocked. I assumed they were married to some great guys, but apparently not.
> 
> I also don’t understand why some women don’t go for a decent man based on their looks and personality. For example, I know a lady who has two kids she brings to school. Granted, she probably doesn’t work on Wall Street, but she’s very attractive and has a sweet personality. I found out she was married to a lazy bum who stays in jail a lot from doing drugs. I’m thinking, “What the heck are you doing married to that kind of guy?”
> 
> My cousin works at an auto factory, and he says he knows several women who work there that are attractive and as nice as can be, and they are married to men who don’t work. One even said her husband told her she might have to take a second job if they got in a bind, and she’s still with him.
> 
> That’s all well and good if it weren’t for the fact that there are still a few decent, nice looking men out there, but for whatever reason, women tend to act like they have the plague or something. I guess the reason some topics get brought up over and over is because there never seems to be a good explanation for what seems like weird behavior. Does anyone have any insight on this situation?


Well, you're only getting one side of the story. I'd say the vast majority of jerks are perfectly polite when in public and at work. Only when they're at home does all the nastiness get unleashed.

Not to say that there aren't good people married to bad ones.


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## BioFury

I shouldnthave said:


> I remember on our second date.... Saying oh really? My pants are coming off? Any other guy, I would have shut him down, but him? I liked it.... And as they say, the rest is history.


He told you that you were going to sleep with him?


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## ReformedHubby

I have never really believed in the whole nice guys finish last thing. But...I think the TAM definition of a nice guy isn't really a nice guy. He is the the guy that feels entitled to a woman just because he would treat her well, and would basically worship her. They do nice things thinking it will win them the girl they want. But there is more to attraction than that. As a man I wouldn't want to feel obligated to be with a woman I am unattracted to just because she would treat me well, what a miserable existence. Why should we expect women to be any different? We all like what we like, and too often I myself have been referred to as a jerk or an a-hole by another man just because a woman chose me over them. My last girlfriend was a divorcee that had so many beta orbiters that I literally lost count. These guys would shovel snow, cut grass, pick up take out food for her and her kids, take her to the airport, etc.. I was like cool, I don't have to do it


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## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> I must be different because a nice guy with good moral values, decency and integrity is very attractive to me. I will never understand why some *women will marry men who drink too much, watch porn, cheat, are lazy, abusive or take drugs*. They do though and they stay with him despite their appalling behaviour. They marry them despite knowing all this and then wonder why things are a mess. Duh.


it’s called marrying a project. Many do it so they can focus on someone else and don’t have to dela with their own ****. Some just like to control and marrying a flawed person makes them look better. Or they simply love the drama in it.

The male version is white knighting. That’s where we try and “save” an obviously damaged woman from themselves. I am a recovering one of these .


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## Wolf1974

BioFury said:


> He told you that you were going to sleep with him?


Yep I’ve done that

Also did it with a woman who told me she never EVER kisses on the first date. I told her to mark her calendar then and we did. 

None of this is being a “bad” guy. This is just confidence. My experience women love that if they are into you. It works like a charm


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## Uselessmale

My wife told me I was the marrying kind of guy, not the fun date kind. Has told,e this for years.


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## sokillme

ReformedHubby said:


> I have never really believed in the whole nice guys finish last thing. But...I think the TAM definition of a nice guy isn't really a nice guy. He is the the guy that feels entitled to a woman just because he would treat her well, and would basically worship her. They do nice things thinking it will win them the girl they want. But there is more to attraction than that. As a man I wouldn't want to feel obligated to be with a woman I am unattracted to just because she would treat me well, what a miserable existence. Why should we expect women to be any different? We all like what we like, and too often I myself have been referred to as a jerk or an a-hole by another man just because a woman chose me over them. My last girlfriend was a divorcee that had so many beta orbiters that I literally lost count. These guys would shovel snow, cut grass, pick up take out food for her and her kids, take her to the airport, etc.. I was like cool, I don't have to do it


I mean I think your last couple lines are interesting. I can't imagine spending years or even months hoovering around a women who I was attracted to if she basically showed me she didn't feel the same way. I would just move no to the next one. I would figure either it's there or it's not, but there are other fish in the sea right? I just don't get these guys. I think the fundamentally don't understand attraction. Or even mating. 

I am all for doing those things for someone I am with, or my wife now, or even a neighbor, but for some women who presumably has shown me she is not attracted to me? Nah. At least not with the hopes that she would change her mind. But that is also another problem with beta, nice guys. They are too afraid to make their intentions known. Before I got married I left very little doubt that I was into someone. By flirting or just straight asking them out. There answer kind of easy to figure or where it was going. It's just a better strategy.


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## Curse of Millhaven

I’m sorry if this comes across as salty, I don’t mean it to, but this thread makes me kinda sad. These women must be closet psychotic *****es, water seeks its own level, women love *******s and bad boys, huh? Case closed, nothing to see here folks, she had it coming. Seems so cold, callous, and myopic. 

Perhaps these kind, decent women end up with users and abusers because of damage done in their (mal)formative years which hobbled them with low self-esteem and they feel they do not deserve better treatment? Broken people sometimes choose rocky, crooked, punishing paths.

Maybe they were hoodwinked and fell in love with a calculated false veneer which cracked once the ring was locked in place and by the time the real (lack of) character was revealed, it was too late? 

Or Jesus, maybe they just made a mistake but due to familial expectations, children, social pressure, religious constraints, an aversion to “giving up”, whatever myriad reasons people have for staying in bad relationships, they choose to languish in the trap rather than chew their leg off?

Sometimes good people make bad decisions. Occam’s razor, indeed.


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## sokillme

Uselessmale said:


> My wife told me I was the marrying kind of guy, not the fun date kind. Has told,e this for years.


That would feel like a kind of an insult to me. I want to be both.


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## sokillme

Wolf1974 said:


> it’s called marrying a project. Many do it so they can focus on someone else and don’t have to dela with their own ****. Some just like to control and marrying a flawed person makes them look better. Or they simply love the drama in it.
> 
> The male version is white knighting. That’s where we try and “save” an obviously damaged woman from themselves. I am a recovering one of these .


This makes a lot of sense. It comes from a place of very strong insecurity. The thinking being, I am not good enough for someone stable, but if I do a bunch of work for them then maybe they will like me.


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## sokillme

Curse of Millhaven said:


> Ierhaps these kind, decent women end up with users and abusers because of damage done in their (mal)formative years which hobbled them with low self-esteem and they feel they do not deserve better treatment? Broken people sometimes choose rocky, crooked, punishing paths.
> 
> Maybe they were hoodwinked and fell in love with a calculated false veneer which cracked once the ring was locked in place and by the time the real (lack of) character was revealed, it was too late?
> 
> Or Jesus, maybe they just made a mistake but due to familial expectations, children, social pressure, religious constraints, an aversion to “giving up”, whatever myriad reasons people have for staying in bad relationships, they choose to languish in the trap rather than chew their leg off?
> 
> Sometimes good people make bad decisions. Occam’s razor, indeed.


See I agree with you to a point but in the end we are all responsible for our decisions. If your spouse is an ******* and treats you like crap, leave. Now if you have kids I get it but when the kids grow up leave. Everyone is responsible for their own life and their own choices.

Life is not static.


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## RandomDude

Uselessmale said:


> My wife told me I was the marrying kind of guy, not the fun date kind. Has told,e this for years.


Well, now that would make me worried.



Faithful Wife said:


> Why do people stay in bad relationships?


Because they are afraid of being alone.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Red Sonja said:


> I am not into so-called bad boys, never have been and never will be. I think of bad boys as 13 year olds (emotionally) trapped in an adult male body, acting “bad” and showing off in an attempt to prove some warped concept of maleness. Yuck.
> 
> My definition of a nice guy is an emotionally mature male who knows the value of kindness, compassion and human connection and, has a purpose and hobbies in life that do not revolve around me. I want a partnership where both parties are loved and valued and, I do not want to become any man’s entire world. I’d give my right arm to find such a man where we also have mutual sexual chemistry (that is the “wild card”).
> 
> I did not marry young (30 years old) and I thought I had found such a man but it turns out it was all an act, a manipulation. This subject of this thread is neglectful in its accounting of those of us, like me, that were drawn in and fooled by a narcissist, psychopath or borderline. BTW people with strong traits of these disorders are estimated to be 10% of the general population (by experts).
> 
> My exH was one of those people, his “mask” came off right after the wedding and it took me quite a few years to figure out what was happening. It’s quite a mind-****, pray you never experience it.


How long did you both date before getting married?


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## Wolf1974

sokillme said:


> See I agree with you to a point but in the end we are all responsible for our decisions. If your spouse is an ******* and treats you like crap, leave. Now if you have kids I get it but when the kids grow up leave. Everyone is responsible for their own life and their own choices.
> 
> Life is not static.


Correct My x was a bad person, cheater, liar, used me and dumped me and our two kids. However I made no illusions she was damaged when I signed on to be With her. I own that as a poor decision I made even though I had all the information. We all have to be accountable to the decisions we make.


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## RandomDude

Wolf1974 said:


> Correct My x was a bad person, cheater, liar, used me and dumped me and our two kids. However I made no illusions she was damaged when I signed on to be With her. I own that as a poor decision I made even though I had all the information. We all have to be accountable to the decisions we make.


And accepting responsibility for your actions gives you the power to change what made you decide poorly in the first place.


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## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep I’ve done that
> 
> Also did it with a woman who told me she never EVER kisses on the first date. I told her to mark her calendar then and we did.
> 
> None of this is being a “bad” guy. This is just confidence. My experience women love that if they are into you. It works like a charm


I would run a mile if a guy said that to me. Sounds very controlling and very disrespectful. My reply would be thanks anyway but 'I' will decide if/when I want to have sex. Then I would end it.


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## RandomDude

Diana7 said:


> I would run a mile if a guy said that to me. Sounds very controlling and very disrespectful. My reply would be thanks anyway but 'I' will decide if/when I want to have sex. Then I would end it.


Not all women are like you Diana, many would like a man who takes charge. 

Besides I don't see anything wrong with what Wolf said, even many strong women with backbones would appreciate a bit of fun teases like that. Can't be all so bloody serious


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I would run a mile if a guy said that to me. Sounds very controlling and very disrespectful. My reply would be thanks anyway but 'I' will decide if/when I want to have sex. Then I would end it.



I think that was a light hearted comment. Need a sense of humour sometimes 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## arbitrator

*A plethora of mate-seeking men and women will absolutely not take the time to find a "good" man or woman ~ they're largely satisfied with finding the instant sexual gratification that a bad boy or a bad girl seemingly brings to the table!

In essence, time for them is too valuable to expend to get the know the true person before committing to them!

And that resultant, most-egregious error ultimately comes to rest on their very broad shoulders, I'm afraid!*


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## southbound

There has been a lot of insightful comments; I'd like to respond to a few. 



Faithful Wife said:


> It is the same way when decent men get with women who are a horrible person. Then they won't/can't let her go even when she has raked him over the coals for years.
> 
> Also - all the great husbands around TAM who have wives who literally don't want to have sex with them and when they do, it is starfish or "hurry up and get it over with".
> 
> Why do people stay in bad relationships? Why do people pick partners who are unhealthy in various ways? Why do people allow themselves to be treated poorly yet still love the person treating them poorly?
> 
> This isn't just a woman thing. People make choices that the rest of us will never understand because we are not them.


I agree, it's not just a woman thing; men do it too. 



SunCMars said:


> From what I have seen, from what I know, I think I know.....
> 
> The good men get taken, get snapped up before their feet hit the ground, before they leave footprints in the sand.


I've not observed that to always be the case. I've known good men and women to be single all their lives. I've known women to finally divorce a jerk in their 40s; why do they not go for a good man at that point?



Wolf1974 said:


> You’re looking at this wrong. These women you speak of you assume to be wonderful human beings. But wonderful people don’t seek out crap. Water reaches a level onto itself. Those women going off with crappy guys get what they want even if they say they don’t. They generally love the drama. The right woman, a good woman, will wait to find a good man.
> 
> Men do the same thing. I think with age most of us move past this point of seeking toxic. But as you can tell some never will


I suppose this is a possible answer as well, although it doesn't always seem to be the case. 



sokillme said:


> Also don't assume that you know what is attractive to women or they think like us. That has been getting us into trouble for years.


Believe me, If there is one thing I do know, it's that I know nothing about women, and I actually think I know less as I get older. 



Blondilocks said:


> For the same reason some men will pass right by the healthy, pretty girl next door and go straight for the smokin' hot batcrapcrazy floozie. It gets their motor running.


Being a guy, i was never in my life attracted to anything like that. I always liked the girl-next-door type. I guess that makes it more of a puzzle for me too. 



minimalME said:


> I've written about this in other posts, and I seem to be in the minority, but I find modern dating dehumanizing - so this past December, I opted out.
> 
> Sometimes it is lonely, but there were many days I felt lonely in my marriage.
> 
> It's taken me a long time, but I'm finally clear with myself about what I want and don't want in my life. And if I'm on my own from here on out, then I've made my peace with that.


I believe modern dating certainly has changed from my grandparent's days. I don't care much for it either. 



Red Sonja said:


> My definition of a nice guy is an emotionally mature male who knows the value of kindness, compassion and human connection and, has a purpose and hobbies in life that do not revolve around me. I want a partnership where both parties are loved and valued and, I do not want to become any man’s entire world. I’d give my right arm to find such a man where we also have mutual sexual chemistry (that is the “wild card”).


And that's what I'm talking about. Why wouldn't any woman want that over a crazy guy.



Diana7 said:


> I must be different because a nice guy with good moral values, decency and integrity is very attractive to me. I will never understand why some women will marry men who drink too much, watch porn, cheat, are lazy, abusive or take drugs. They do though and they stay with him despite their appalling behaviour. They marry them despite knowing all this and then wonder why things are a mess. Duh.


You had described well the part I don't understand. Women will divorce a guy for practically nothing; maybe he isn't exciting anymore, but if he is a drunk and abuser, they just can't give him up. 



sokillme said:


> Look at it this way, if your wife cooks you a great wonderful dinner do you want to jump her bones? Do you want to in the same way if she sent you a dirty text and told you to come straight home?
> 
> The idea that being nice or good is a way to get women to want to be with us is something that Hollywood created, usually in movies written by men. I think it also was created in a time where there was fear of female sexuality. So yes that doesn't work.
> 
> I think even healthy women still operate the way we do. They need to be attracted to want to go out with a guy, if you are good they may want to have a relationship with you. But no one is going out with you because you have a good job if you look like John Goodman. You have got to up your game.
> 
> But just like some guys are willing to put of with an incredibly hot women who is sexy but also crazy (I know hot and crazy is very rare >). Some women are willing to overlook a looser guy if he hits the other points.


I understand this to a degree; however, I know that I do NOT want a women who is a cheat, drug user, and all around wild hair, so what does that leave? It leaves the nice, family oriented women. So, in a sense, yes, a woman who cooks a meal would turn me on much more than a crazy woman. 



I shouldnthave said:


> I'll co-sign on this. I am not saying my husband is a jerk (far from it), but he didn't land me by being a "nice guy". He was agressive and clear in his pursuit of me. Had some classic alpha traits.
> 
> I remember on our second date.... Saying oh really? My pants are coming off? Any other guy, I would have shut him down, but him? I liked it.... And as they say, the rest is history.


I have no problem with this at all; however, it can be a slippery slope. Women often like to give the impression that sex is down the list of important items; heck, if a guy took a woman's profile literally on dating sites, one would get the impression that they don't even like sex; they's rather have someone to talk to and companionship. 

At one point in my life, I was under the impression that everyone liked sex, but look at all the sex starved people just on this site. I thought being able to rock a woman's world in that category was important, but some act like they's rather have a chat partner.


----------



## BluesPower

I shouldnthave said:


> I'll co-sign on this. I am not saying my husband is a jerk (far from it), but he didn't land me by being a "nice guy". He was agressive and clear in his pursuit of me. Had some classic alpha traits.
> 
> I remember on our second date.... Saying oh really? My pants are coming off? Any other guy, I would have shut him down, but him? I liked it.... And as they say, the rest is history.


I was going to pass on this thread but I have to comment on this in my situation.

I don't guess that the women choosing bad men and alpha beta thing will never get solved, but it is interesting conversation. 

@I shouldnthave knows some of my past, but before I met my current GF, all of my friends that are girls said that I had to go into time out for a while. I had been through many women and had a hopeful relationship go bust, so I took their advice. It sucked by the way. 

So I go to see one of my friends play at a cool little bar/music venue, and at this time it had been six weeks. So I am about done with time out but still not actively looking for anyone, or anything. 

So long story short, My New GF is just a dream in every way, but the night I met her she was using the "*****y girl" routine to keep the riff raff away and she pulled it on me. 

Now all the beta boys were in love with her but were all to intimidated to ask her out, which I still think is sooo funny. When she pulled that on me I completely took it as a challenge. Initially I was just going to bang her just to prove that I could, but I accidentally feel in love the first time I kissed her, and the rest is history. 

The point of this is multifold. First, nice guys finish last. In this case this is a bar that I play at sometimes and everyone of the single guys there that were in "love" with my GF hate my guts. Every time they give my that look, I just LMAO. 

The funny thing is that the don't even know what they too weak to go after, because she did not sleep around, in fact she had not dated or been with anyone for a while, years in fact. 

To the basic point of this thread, she had a bad picker with all of her partners before me. She was just inexperienced in relationships and she did not understand much about mental issues and red flags in the past. 

And the fact is that she also, did not understand what "Real Love" was, or what good sex was all about either. So finally, through complete chance she has me and understands about both of these things now...


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## SunCMars

john117 said:


> Not quite this simple.
> 
> Relationships don't go south overnight. I had 25 decent to good years. The last 10... Not so good. Lots of "investment". Children. Property. Careers.
> 
> *If my kids were ho-hum students and planned for ho-hum careers I would have considered leaving earlier. But given their abilities and motivation, a few years of suboptimal relationship versus fully funded college accounts... *
> 
> The other side knows it too. And you reach a point where you both know it's done. Better quit when you're both ahead. Meanwhile do your homework and mentally prepare.
> 
> That's all there is to it.


Living for others...
In John's case living for his progeny. His dear children.
Kudos.

A fatherly thing to do. The other side concurred, obliged. 

Good parents.
NOT good lovers..
And not friends.

Certainly, not to the end..

For a few weeks, for a few years makes ones lovers.
For, to that point that is 'to' the end of life that makes them friends.

Till death do Thou part makes them friends, normally so.
Or, it makes the pair, unfaithful to Truth, they, fools.

It makes for wasted lives.

One's word kept.
One's life given to others.
One of the 'others' be Folly.
One, that is the oversized taker.

John, you finally molted, shed thy skin.
She, the skin that restricted growth, pinched-off oxygenated blood flow.

When she left, you went right.
Right to life, to a new life.

Do not look back.
Do not look back.

Looking back is the pillar of salt that you were, can yet remain.....so.




From the notes of SunCMars-


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## minimalME

arbitrator said:


> *A plethora of mate-seeking men and women will absolutely not take the time to find a "good" man or woman ~ they're largely satisfied with finding the instant sexual gratification that a bad boy or a bad girl seemingly brings to the table!
> 
> In essence, time for them is too valuable to expend to get the know the true person before committing to them!
> 
> And that resultant, most-egregious error ultimately comes to rest on their very broad shoulders, I'm afraid!*


Sooo spot on!!!


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## Diana7

RandomDude said:


> Not all women are like you Diana, many would like a man who takes charge.
> 
> Besides I don't see anything wrong with what Wolf said, even many strong women with backbones would appreciate a bit of fun teases like that. Can't be all so bloody serious


I am a strong woman which is why I wouldn't let a man dictate to me when we had sex.


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## purplesunsets

Interesting post! I can't speak for an entire group of people, but I can speak on behalf of my own experience and those women close to me..

I think this could happen for a few reasons:

1. The bait and switch, a classic move . I've been with many men who started the relationship "wooing" me and showing me their best qualities, only to slowly unveil their true nature, by which point I had already become emotionally invested and found it hard to untangle myself. 
2. Low self-esteem. I've countlessly rejected quality men because I unconsciously thought something was wrong with them to be so kind to someone like me. I had no confidence, no self-love, and thought I deserved to be treated the same way I viewed myself. I can recognize this now that I have more confidence and self-love, I accept love from kind men now. 
3. The thrill. Good quality, kind, intelligent men can be predictable, which I now see as a good thing. But in my "bad boy" years, I liked the thrill of a mysterious, hard to tie down guy. I guess this is a maturity thing.
4. Fear of REAL commitment and REAL love. This can be said for many, regardless of gender. Sometimes people are too scared to have a real relationship, a real commitment, so they choose someone they know they can keep at arms' length. I did this with many exes. I was too scared to have anything real, so I chose men who couldn't offer anything substantial.


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## minimalME

Diana7 said:


> I would run a mile if a guy said that to me. Sounds very controlling and very disrespectful. My reply would be thanks anyway but 'I' will decide if/when I want to have sex. Then I would end it.


When dating, I agree that I'm the one who says yes or no to sex. But I wouldn't stop seeing someone for wanting it. After all, most men do. However, the delivery matters. I've been pressured and even bullied about sex _a lot_. When you're dating many people, it gets old fast.



Diana7 said:


> I am a strong woman which is why I wouldn't let a man dictate to me when we had sex.


I'm also strong, and I want someone stronger. 

What I wouldn't tolerate in dating could very well be totally welcomed and appropriate in marriage.


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## sokillme

Diana7 said:


> I would run a mile if a guy said that to me. Sounds very controlling and very disrespectful. My reply would be thanks anyway but 'I' will decide if/when I want to have sex. Then I would end it.


I think it was more a playful joke, false bravado. Some people like flirting like that. Would you have a problem if you husband took you out on a date and told you that in a playful way? 

Diana I like you and think your posts are valuable here. You and I also agree on a whole bunch, but sometimes I wish your first instinct was more inclined towards empathy and less strong towards judgment. I get it when we are talking about cruel things like adultery, but in this case that was probably a fun moment for both of them.


----------



## uhtred

Billions of women, billions of men - I think that there a are huge numbers of different reasons that people make "mistakes" in relationships.

Sometimes they aren't mistakes. The guy who you think is a "loser" may actually be a really nice caring guy, who is on his way to getting his life in order.

Sometimes its just young stupid romantic ideas. Maybe he seems "sexy". Maybe he is the first guy to buy her flowers. Maybe he says all the right things.

Sometimes is not recognizing what is important. (My wife was perfect for me - I just didn't know that sex could be an issue). I'm sure women make the same mistake.

Sometimes its practicality, or desperation, or just plain stupidity. 

Sometimes people put on a very good show early in dating, and then trap a partner who feels that they cannot leave once they have said their vows.


Lots of ways to get it wrong.


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## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> I would run a mile if a guy said that to me. Sounds very controlling and very disrespectful. My reply would be thanks anyway but 'I' will decide if/when I want to have sex. Then I would end it.


And many women who likes guy like confidence. Not everyone is like you. Some enjoy the playful flirting banter that goes back and forth between the two sexes. I have read enough of your posts to know your stance on many things comes across as way to controlling for me. We wouldn’t be compatible from the get go. Takes all types outside your bubble to make the world go round


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## SA2017

southbound said:


> I know this has been asked and covered a thousand times, but it never ceases to amaze me why some women who are attractive, nice, and have a good job will marry a jerk when there are decent men around. I just don’t get it. The reason this is on my mind is because I know of three women in the last couple of months who fit that description, and they are getting divorced. I know them through work but knew nothing of their marriage, but I knew they were nice women. When I asked some people what happened, they all said they were married to butts. I must say I was shocked. I assumed they were married to some great guys, but apparently not.
> 
> I also don’t understand why some women don’t go for a decent man based on their looks and personality. For example, I know a lady who has two kids she brings to school. Granted, she probably doesn’t work on Wall Street, but she’s very attractive and has a sweet personality. I found out she was married to a lazy bum who stays in jail a lot from doing drugs. I’m thinking, “What the heck are you doing married to that kind of guy?”
> 
> My cousin works at an auto factory, and he says he knows several women who work there that are attractive and as nice as can be, and they are married to men who don’t work. One even said her husband told her she might have to take a second job if they got in a bind, and she’s still with him.
> 
> That’s all well and good if it weren’t for the fact that there are still a few decent, nice looking men out there, but for whatever reason, women tend to act like they have the plague or something. I guess the reason some topics get brought up over and over is because there never seems to be a good explanation for what seems like weird behavior. Does anyone have any insight on this situation?



I can tell from own experience:

they got tricked into the relationship/marriage. everything was great and beautiful in the beginning. they stay out of loyalty and hope. they feel sorry for the guy. don't want to let him down or being afraid of new beginnings without him.


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## Ynot

Because I think for many people anybody is better than nobody. They would rather be in any relationship, regardless of how bad it is, than be a lone. Most people simply do not love them selves enough to care.

As to the "you are going to sleep with me" side discussion going on. I remember dating a woman, she was told me we had to date 90 days before we would have sex (I think because TV talking head said 90 days was the magic number) I told her she couldn't wait that long and we had sex les than a week later.
I think the idea that you are charge is just as controlling and manipulative as the guy telling the woman you will sleep with me. The reality is they BOTH decide. Otherwise, you get what wish for. Which is not always what you want.


----------



## sokillme

> You had described well the part I don't understand. Shallow women will divorce a guy for practically nothing; maybe he isn't exciting anymore, but if he is a drunk and abuser, they just can't give him up.


fixed it. Plus you probably don't know the full story. But if she really operates like this then she is not a good choice and he is better off. 



> I understand this to a degree; however, I know that I do NOT want a women who is a cheat, drug user, and all around wild hair, so what does that leave? It leaves the nice, family oriented women. So, in a sense, yes, a woman who cooks a meal would turn me on much more than a crazy woman.


Be honest would you want her if she was unattractive though? You probably wouldn't even get to that point if you were not attracted right?



> I have no problem with this at all; however, it can be a slippery slope. Women often like to give the impression that sex is down the list of important items; heck, if a guy took a woman's profile literally on dating sites, one would get the impression that they don't even like sex; they's rather have someone to talk to and companionship.
> 
> At one point in my life, I was under the impression that everyone liked sex, but look at all the sex starved people just on this site. I thought being able to rock a woman's world in that category was important, but some act like they's rather have a chat partner.


Well there is just as many women in the same spot as seen on here. It's hard to judge all this from a message board. Lots of times there are a whole marriage worth of problems that lead to this. Or the spouse withholding is not a good spouse. I think it is true though that people just get board. I think married people are sometimes shocked when that happens. You have to fight against it. But you have to care first. Lots of people seem to not. That's both men and women though. 



> I've not observed that to always be the case. I've known good men and women to be single all their lives.


Well how were their people skills? What did that look like? How was their grooming. All of that matters. There is a reason why that bird does that dance in the forest. Why the peacock has colorful feathers. That is a part of mating. I for one and lots of other people like me like that part. So if you don't pay attention to that part of it you are probably not going to have a lot of success. 

Besides that their are a lot of "good" men who are just wishy-washy and weak. You know I feel bad for guys who come on here whose wives cheat on them, but the ones who refuse to act or allow themselves to be bullied, if I was a women I wouldn't want to be married to them either, not saying it's right they were cheated on though. But I don't think that are "good" choices to be married to, because being a husband means taking responsibly for you family, that is not always just saying yes and changing tires. It means leading. Lots of nice guys don't give off signals that they are not assertive. That is just not attractive to lots of women.

Maybe the answer is extending what we mean by saying "nice-guy". Too many "nice-guys" as I see it are really just passive men who think doing nice things makes them attractive. That's kinda true, but not if it's done only to come across as attractive at first. Lots of times they act that way because they don't know how to charm or woo women. If that is why you are doing it, you would do better off putting your efforts into other things that attract a mate. It's kind of like playing basket ball but complaining that you can just hold the ball and run. Yeah you can complain but that is just not how the game works. Better to learn to play better under the rules. 

Also there are some people who are just not going to be into you. Being a KISA is not going to change that most of the time, and besides that I don't want "he does nice things." to be the only reason my wife is with me. I WANT and NEED her to be physically attracted to me, as that is going to give her more of a desire to want a sexual relationship. There are plenty of things you can to to up your attraction game. 

I feel like a lot of this mantra is made by men who don't want to do things that make them attractive. You are not deserving of a mate just because you are nice. The world just doesn't work that way. Being nice though does help you in your marriage as long as you are no pushover. Got to get to the marriage though. 

This board is harsh but the post get to the point of what I am talking about and is eye opeing. 



> I've known women to finally divorce a jerk in their 40s; why do they not go for a good man at that point?


I mean some of this is just human nature. Lots of people suck, look how many people cheat and treat there spouses like garbage. I mean it's upsetting but at the end of the day it is what it is.


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## Red Sonja

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How long did you both date before getting married?


5 years.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Marc878 said:


> *Codependency. *
> 
> I've seen this on both sides. Amazes me but it happens.


I remember the 1st time I heard this word, I had no idea what it meant.... I was working for a woman who didn't have a good marriage.. I knew them both.. he seemed MEAN to me, antisocial type.... she was the complete opposite... sweet bubbly personality..... she shared with me how she got a book on "Codependency" to sort it out... she left him for a time but I think they got back together.. not sure where they are today... I often thought to myself..."How in the world did she end up with him [email protected]#"...

Why people stay when they are not getting their emotional needs met... Codependency , reading about it should help explain this some...

Good article here... Symptoms of Codependency 



> Codependency is characterized by a person belonging to a dysfunctional, one-sided relationship where one person relies on the other for meeting nearly all of their emotional and self-esteem needs. It also describes a relationship that enables another person to maintain their irresponsible, addictive, or underachieving behavior.
> 
> Do you expend all of your energy in meeting your partner’s needs? Do you feel trapped in your relationship? Are you the one that is constantly making sacrifices in your relationship? Then you may be in a codependent relationship.
> 
> The term codependency has been around for decades. Although it originally applied to spouses of alcoholics (first called co-alcoholics), researchers revealed that the characteristics of codependents were much more prevalent in the general population than had previously imagined. In fact, they found that if you were raised in a dysfunctional family or had an ill parent, you could also be codependent.
> 
> Researchers also found that codependent symptoms got worse if left untreated. The good news is that they’re reversible.





> *Symptoms of Codependency*
> 
> The following is a list of symptoms of codependency and being in a codependent relationship. You don’t need to have them all to qualify as codependent.
> 
> * *Low Self Esteem* . Feeling that you’re not good enough or comparing yourself to others are signs of low self-esteem. The tricky thing about self-esteem is that some people think highly of themselves, but it’s only a disguise — they actually feel unlovable or inadequate. Underneath, usually hidden from consciousness, are feelings of shame.Guilt and perfectionism often go along with low self-esteem. If everything is perfect, you don’t feel bad about yourself.
> 
> * *People-pleasing*. It’s fine to want to please someone you care about, but codependents usually don’t think they have a choice. Saying “No” causes them anxiety. Some codependents have a hard time saying “No” to anyone. They go out of their way and sacrifice their own needs to accommodate other people.
> 
> * *Poor boundaries.* Boundaries are sort of an imaginary line between you and others. It divides up what’s yours and somebody else’s, and that applies not only to your body, money, and belongings, but also to your feelings, thoughts and needs. That’s especially where codependents get into trouble. They have blurry or weak boundaries. They feel responsible for other people’s feelings and problems or blame their own on someone else.Some codependents have rigid boundaries. They are closed off and withdrawn, making it hard for other people to get close to them. Sometimes, people flip back and forth between having weak boundaries and having rigid ones.
> 
> * *Reactivity*. A consequence of poor boundaries is that you react to everyone’s thoughts and feelings. If someone says something you disagree with, you either believe it or become defensive. You absorb their words, because there’s no boundary. With a boundary, you’d realize it was just their opinion and not a reflection of you and not feel threatened by disagreements.
> 
> * *Caretaking.* Another effect of poor boundaries is that if someone else has a problem, you want to help them to the point that you give up yourself. It’s natural to feel empathy and sympathy for someone, but codependents start putting other people ahead of themselves. In fact, they need to help and might feel rejected if another person doesn’t want help. Moreover, they keep trying to help and fix the other person, even when that person clearly isn’t taking their advice.
> 
> * *Control.* Control helps codependents feel safe and secure. Everyone needs some control over events in their life. You wouldn’t want to live in constant uncertainty and chaos, but for codependents, control limits their ability to take risks and share their feelings. Sometimes they have an addiction that either helps them loosen up, like alcoholism, or helps them hold their feelings down, like workaholism, so that they don’t feel out of control.Codependents also need to control those close to them, because they need other people to behave in a certain way to feel okay. In fact, people-pleasing and care-taking can be used to control and manipulate people. Alternatively, codependents are bossy and tell you what you should or shouldn’t do. This is a violation of someone else’s boundary.
> 
> * *Dysfunctional communication.* Codependents have trouble when it comes to communicating their thoughts, feelings and needs. Of course, if you don’t know what you think, feel or need, this becomes a problem. Other times, you know, but you won’t own up to your truth. You’re afraid to be truthful, because you don’t want to upset someone else. Instead of saying, “I don’t like that,” you might pretend that it’s okay or tell someone what to do. Communication becomes dishonest and confusing when you try to manipulate the other person out of fear.
> 
> * *Obsessions.* Codependents have a tendency to spend their time thinking about other people or relationships. This is caused by their dependency and anxieties and fears. They can also become obsessed when they think they’ve made or might make a “mistake.”Sometimes you can lapse into fantasy about how you’d like things to be or about someone you love as a way to avoid the pain of the present. This is one way to stay in denial, discussed below, but it keeps you from living your life.
> 
> * *Dependency.* Codependents need other people to like them to feel okay about themselves. They’re afraid of being rejected or abandoned, even if they can function on their own. Others need always to be in a relationship, because they feel depressed or lonely when they’re by themselves for too long. This trait makes it hard for them to end a relationship, even when the relationship is painful or abusive. They end up feeling trapped.
> 
> * *Denial.* One of the problems people face in getting help for codependency is that they’re in denial about it, meaning that they don’t face their problem. Usually they think the problem is someone else or the situation. They either keep complaining or trying to fix the other person, or go from one relationship or job to another and never own up the fact that they have a problem.Codependents also deny their feelings and needs. Often, they don’t know what they’re feeling and are instead focused on what others are feeling. The same thing goes for their needs. They pay attention to other people’s needs and not their own. They might be in denial of their need for space and autonomy. Although some codependents seem needy, others act like they’re self-sufficient when it comes to needing help. They won’t reach out and have trouble receiving. They are in denial of their vulnerability and need for love and intimacy.
> 
> * *Problems with intimacy.* By this I’m not referring to sex, although sexual dysfunction often is a reflection of an intimacy problem. I’m talking about being open and close with someone in an intimate relationship. Because of the shame and weak boundaries, you might fear that you’ll be judged, rejected, or left. On the other hand, you may fear being smothered in a relationship and losing your autonomy. You might deny your need for closeness and feel that your partner wants too much of your time; your partner complains that you’re unavailable, but he or she is denying his or her need for separateness.
> 
> * *Painful emotions.* Codependency creates stress and leads to painful emotions. Shame and low self-esteem create anxiety and fear about being judged, rejected or abandoned; making mistakes; being a failure; feeling trapped by being close or being alone. The other symptoms lead to feelings of anger and resentment, depression, hopelessness, and despair. When the feelings are too much, you can feel numb.


----------



## Laurentium

Red Sonja said:


> My definition of a nice guy is an emotionally mature male who knows the value of kindness, compassion and human connection and, has a purpose and hobbies in life that do not revolve around me. I want a partnership where both parties are loved and valued and, I do not want to become any man’s entire world. I’d give my right arm to find such a man where we also have mutual sexual chemistry (that is the “wild card”).


I know I said something similar on the "Is it ok to enjoy being single" thread: I am perhaps an example of such a man, and unfortunately, I am too busy to spend the amounts of time required for "dating". I tried online dating for a short while, and it was a nightmare. Only someone lacking the maturity, purpose, and hobbies that you specify, would be willing to put up with it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I'm not a woman but I'm a lifelong researcher of them. I know I will catch hell for this , but nice guys don't really do it for women. They all say the want a nice guy, but that isn't really true. They want a man that makes their nether regions tingle. This is less about being nice, than knowing how to build the attraction. Nice guys think they can earn a way to a woman's heart by pretending to be asexual and then they end up friendzoned. You might want to check out the 'Rational Man' books. If you take nothing from them, atleast they are interesting and helped to start a whole online movement.





Wolf1974 said:


> You’re looking at this wrong. These women you speak of you assume to be wonderful human beings. But wonderful people don’t seek out crap. Water reaches a level onto itself. Those women going off with crappy guys get what they want even if they say they don’t. They generally love the drama. The right woman, a good woman, will wait to find a good man.
> 
> Men do the same thing. I think with age most of us move past this point of seeking toxic. But as you can tell some never will


It's always interesting to me when this topic comes up..as I will own it saying I believe I married a NICE MAN (taking the term with a grain of salt here)...I prefer the term "GOOD MAN" more so ....... there are many opinions on this.. some of the things I read offend me ...as I feel what is written stomps & demeans men like my husband...Take what @UpsideDownWorld11 said ... my H was dumped twice before he met me ...girls did not swoon him...he was laid back, shy, had glasses, not into sports....he IS the type to get "Friend zoned"...great listener & all that, I certainly appreciated this when we met - it helped us [email protected]# ... I didn't friend zone him ....

He even waited to have sex with me... he was there for me emotionally in every way, treated me with the greatest of care... still does 30 yrs later...it was never an act for gain/ to get in my pants.... he was his Authentic self.. he is one of the Good Guys....boring as it may sound & is portrayed in these discussions.... he is respected at Work but he'd never want to be a Boss, he is dependable, honest, faithful, loves being a Father, doesn't mind "Honey to do lists" either... 

Then I read what @Wolf1974 said here ....and see him in that too... he has told me had he not met me.. he might have just stayed single.. he wouldn't just go for anyone....he would have turned his nose to drama queens or any sort of party girl. Just as I would have from a Bad boy type, any hint of being a Player, drinking, hanging out in Bars, recklessness, things of that nature... I had an "ideal" in my mind, knowing what would destroy my future if I allowed that in...he's the one who proved himself true..



Blondilocks said:


> For the same reason some men will pass right by the healthy, pretty girl next door and go straight for the smokin' hot batcrapcrazy floozie. It gets their motor running.


 I think it comes down to self control and what one is REALLY SEEKING in life / in love... are they looking for immediate pleasure ... or something lasting?? and how much does that mean to them... many will take all the fleeting pleasure they can hold in the meantime....it's just too tempting for the majority...then they get pulled in, many never had enough compatibility from the start.. it ends up rearing it's ugly head down the road...

@arbitrator 's post captured this...


arbitrator said:


> *A plethora of mate-seeking men and women will absolutely not take the time to find a "good" man or woman ~ they're largely satisfied with finding the instant sexual gratification that a bad boy or a bad girl seemingly brings to the table!
> 
> In essence, time for them is too valuable to expend to get the know the true person before committing to them!
> 
> And that resultant, most-egregious error ultimately comes to rest on their very broad shoulders, I'm afraid!*


----------



## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's always interesting to me when this topic comes up..as I will own it saying I believe I married a NICE MAN (taking the term with a grain of salt here)...I prefer the term "GOOD MAN" more so ....... there are many opinions on this.. some of the things I read offend me ...as I feel what is written stomps & demeans men like my husband...Take what @UpsideDownWorld11 said ... my H was dumped twice before he met me ...girls did not swoon him...he was laid back, shy, had glasses, not into sports....he IS the type to get "Friend zoned"...great listener & all that, I certainly appreciated this when we met - it helped us [email protected]# ... I didn't friend zone him ....
> 
> He even waited to have sex with me... he was there for me emotionally in every way, treated me with the greatest of care... still does 30 yrs later...it was never an act for gain/ to get in my pants.... he was his Authentic self.. he is one of the Good Guys....boring as it may sound & is portrayed in these discussions.... he is respected at Work but he'd never want to be a Boss, he is dependable, honest, faithful, loves being a Father, doesn't mind "Honey to do lists" either...
> 
> Then I read what @Wolf1974 said here ....and see him in that too... he has told me had he not met me.. he might have just stayed single.. he wouldn't just go for anyone....he would have turned his nose to drama queens or any sort of party girl. Just as I would have from a Bad boy type, any hint of being a Player, drinking, hanging out in Bars, recklessness, things of that nature... I had an "ideal" in my mind, knowing what would destroy my future if I allowed that in...he's the one who proved himself true..
> 
> I think it comes down to self control and what one is REALLY SEEKING in life / in love... are they looking for immediate pleasure ... or something lasting?? and how much does that mean to them... many will take all the fleeting pleasure they can hold in the meantime....it's just too tempting for the majority...then they get pulled in, many never had enough compatibility from the start.. it ends up rearing it's ugly head down the road...
> 
> @arbitrator 's post spoke captured this...



Yeah but as I and others have said before, you are the unicorn. Most women are not like you.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

sokillme said:


> Yeah but as I and others have said before, you are the unicorn. Most women are not like you.


Ha ha.. Well I am off the beaten path & like to go against the grain many times .....Back then I wasn't so together.... I had "chips on my shoulder", wasn't treated well at home, hated my step mother/wanted out of that house, he felt I was emotionally abused... He was THERE for me.. He was the type I needed, not some fly by night... Someone to trust, lean on, I needed some stability... in this respect.. again he sounds like a "NICE GUY" coming in to save the Damsel (what a pathetic NO NO !!)... 

And I've looked upon him as my "White Knight" dang it... and I don't want to apologize for those expressions either.. I am OK with them.

His influence has surely helped ME be a better person... Every story is unique.. these type of men can be a wonderful match for some of us... I just don't like to see them put down... makes me want to argue their case..


----------



## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> Ha ha.. Well I am off the beaten path & like to go against the grain many times .....Back then I wasn't so together.... I had "chips on my shoulder", wasn't treated well at home, hated my step mother/wanted out of that house, he felt I was emotionally abused... He was THERE for me.. He was the type I needed, not some fly by night... Someone to trust, lean on, I needed some stability... in this respect.. again he sounds like a "NICE GUY" coming in to save the Damsel (what a pathetic NO NO !!)...
> 
> And I've looked upon him as my "White Knight" dang it... and I don't want to apologize for those expressions either.. I am OK with them.
> 
> His influence has surely helped ME be a better person... Every story is unique.. these type of men can be a wonderful match for some of us... I just don't like to see them put down... makes me want to argue their case..


I don't think your husband is who we are talking about, at least who I am talking about when we say nice guy. The way you describe him he sounds like a leader to me, just cause he doesn't like football dosn't mean he can't be an alpha. At least in my book.


----------



## Diana7

minimalME said:


> When dating, I agree that I'm the one who says yes or no to sex. But I wouldn't stop seeing someone for wanting it. After all, most men do. However, the delivery matters. I've been pressured and even bullied about sex _a lot_. When you're dating many people, it gets old fast.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm also strong, and I want someone stronger.
> 
> What I wouldn't tolerate in dating could very well be totally welcomed and appropriate in marriage.



Yes men want sex, but it takes a strong man to wait. 

In marriage its different, sex is good and either can suggest it whenever they like.


----------



## Diana7

sokillme said:


> I think it was more a playful joke, false bravado. Some people like flirting like that. Would you have a problem if you husband took you out on a date and told you that in a playful way?
> 
> Diana I like you and think your posts are valuable here. You and I also agree on a whole bunch, but sometimes I wish your first instinct was more inclined towards empathy and less strong towards judgment. I get it when we are talking about cruel things like adultery, but in this case that was probably a fun moment for both of them.



I guess we saw those posts differently?

In marriage of course its ok for either to suggest sex in whatever way, you really know each other by then, but on a first or second or third date? Its very different and nothing should be assumed.


----------



## Diana7

Laurentium said:


> I know I said something similar on the "Is it ok to enjoy being single" thread: I am perhaps an example of such a man, and unfortunately, I am too busy to spend the amounts of time required for "dating". I tried online dating for a short while, and it was a nightmare. Only someone lacking the maturity, purpose, and hobbies that you specify, would be willing to put up with it.


It varies. We met on line and he is the best man I have ever met.


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> And many women who likes guy like confidence. Not everyone is like you. Some enjoy the playful flirting banter that goes back and forth between the two sexes. I have read enough of your posts to know your stance on many things comes across as way to controlling for me. We wouldn’t be compatible from the get go. Takes all types outside your bubble to make the world go round


There is confidence and there is pressuring someone to have sex. While my husband is VERY laid back and easy going, he has a lot of self confidence, but it doesn't come out in that way because of his desire to only have sex in marriage. His strength and confidence and appeal come out in knowing where his values lie and not being prepared to break those values. I love a man with strong moral values and the strength to keep them. 

In the marriage there can be all sorts of flirting, and its fun, but when you barely know each other its very different. 
I suppose I want a man to treat me with respect, that to me that isn't respect at all. Not my type of man, hence I said I would run a mile.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Diana7 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And many women who likes guy like confidence. Not everyone is like you. Some enjoy the playful flirting banter that goes back and forth between the two sexes. I have read enough of your posts to know your stance on many things comes across as way to controlling for me. We wouldn’t be compatible from the get go. Takes all types outside your bubble to make the world go round
> 
> 
> 
> There is confidence and there is pressuring someone to have sex. While my husband is VERY laid back and easy going, he has a lot of self confidence, but it doesn't come out in that way because of his desire to only have sex in marriage. His strength and confidence and appeal come out in knowing where his values lie and not being prepared to break those values. I love a man with strong moral values and the strength to keep them.
> 
> In the marriage there can be all sorts of flirting, and its fun, but when you barely know each other its very different.
> I suppose I want a man to treat me with respect, that to me that isn't respect at all. Not my type of man, hence I said I would run a mile.
Click to expand...


I actually think it's a good idea for men to try to get a woman in bed as fast as possible. Its like a test that you can't fail, assuming there is attraction there....If they accept...great, you get an ONS. You have fun with zero investment. If they don't, great you have a potential LTR. You have to filter out the fun girls from the girls you would take home to mom some way.


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> There is confidence and there is pressuring someone to have sex. While my husband is VERY laid back and easy going, he has a lot of self confidence, but it doesn't come out in that way because of his desire to only have sex in marriage. His strength and confidence and appeal come out in knowing where his values lie and not being prepared to break those values. I love a man with strong moral values and the strength to keep them.
> 
> In the marriage there can be all sorts of flirting, and its fun, but when you barely know each other its very different.
> I suppose I want a man to treat me with respect, that to me that isn't respect at all. Not my type of man, hence I said I would run a mile.


You’re being ridiculous. No one is pressured for anything. These are grown ass adults flirting. If they didn’t want to have sex then they don’t.

A woman saying 15 times in texts and the first hour of meeting she won’t kiss on the first date isn’t a prude she is being playful and flirting. 5 years later she still knows how to get me going and be playful.

Your prudish ways work for you and that’s great. Again not everyone is you. And if you didn’t get that it was a flirt and with humor I wouldn’t be stopping you from running away...I would pay for the Uber.


----------



## Wolf1974

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I actually think it's a good idea for men to try to get a woman in bed as fast as possible. Its like a test that you can't fail, assuming there is attraction there....If they accept...great, you get an ONS. You have fun with zero investment. If they don't, great you have a potential LTR. You have to filter out the fun girls from the girls you would take home to mom some way.


I personally don’t make the same distinction. Having over the top attraction can lead to quick sex, quick commitment, and LTR. As I said the right woman is worth it and I waited a long time for it :smthumbup:


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

Wolf1974 said:


> My x was a bad person, cheater, liar, used me and dumped me and our two kids. However I made no illusions she was damaged when I signed on to be With her. I own that as a poor decision I made even though I had all the information. We all have to be accountable to the decisions we make.


I have only compassion and sadness for what happened to you. You seem like a decent man; I do not for one second assume you are a drama-loving crappy person or that you sought your own level or brought that on yourself. You may not see the distinction, but I do.




sokillme said:


> Life is not static.


I know. Life is like water – fluid, mutable, powerful. But it also follows a course and can be frozen in place. 

Sometimes it’s hard to turn the tides, face the unknown, and resist the sucking down spiral of fear. Suffering can be familiar and sadly, comfortable. And if you love the fool, more's the pity.

And if you’re damaged, maybe you make the same mistakes and ****ty decisions again. 

When we were in a bad way and I had had enough and decided to divorce, my husband said he worried about my future, that I would just be preyed upon by *******s who would only want to use and abuse me. 

I get what that says about me, but what does that say about him? Oh burn! Haha! 

Just kidding. He’s a good man, he’s exorcised a lot of his demons, and we’ve weathered the rough seas together and for better or worse…we’re each other’s safe harbor. 

He no longer takes his anger out on me, his wall-punching rage meltdowns are over, and he’s gentle and kind toward me now. 

For the record, he’s not an ******* or a bad boy. He’s a smart, shy, book nerd, with a quirky sense of humor, who loves me as much as he is able. 

And I know I am responsible for my own choices (I mean, duh), and I know I should pull the plug, but I also know I probably won’t. I’ll likely go down with this ship. Which is probably for the best, because what my husband said does give me pause and haunt me a little. 

What if I’m doomed to this loop of repetition compulsion and all I’ll ever know are those that hurt me? 

Oh well. Some of us will never be perfectly well-adjusted, impeccable fonts of excellent decision making, I guess. 

I’m just broken and was missing so many pieces so early on that I never really had a chance of being whole. Sometimes that’s life too.

Wow. What a Debbie Downer. Here a little levity to lighten the mood…

Marriage is a three-ring circus: engagement ring, wedding ring, and suffering.

Hahaha!!! Oh wait….


----------



## southbound

THREAD REVIEW:

I appreciate all the responses. This has been very informative. So, let me see if I understand.

What I came away with is that “good men” aren’t always attractive to women. I also got the impression that there was more of a sexual component in the beginning than I thought. As you know, being with an x that wasn’t into sex has probably messed with my thoughts on that. I was also taught to be a gentleman, so i guess that's a negative in the beginning too. So, women often marry jerks because they display a masculine quality that they are attracted to that the "good men" might not display. 

I assume people believe that “attraction” does lead to sex, but I’m a little confused about what a man should do to go beyond the “good man” personality when not having sex to keep a woman attracted. I have no problem with being adventurous and bad boy in the bedroom . Heck, if my wife had mentioned anything in the bedroom, I’d probably have been all for it. Being a good man doesn’t necessarily translate to being Mr. Rogers in the bedroom. But I didn’t assume that meant I had to act like a gang member when I was walking through the mall or ordering dinner with her. Maybe a guy is supposed to beat up the waiter if he gets the order wrong; would that keep the fire burning? 

One guy on the thread turned the tables and asked, which would turn a guy on more, a woman cooking him a good meal or sending him a sexy text and telling him to hurry home. Obviously with me, the latter, but that doesn’t mean she has to be crazy in everyday life for me to be attracted to her. 
I always assumed if a man was the type that a woman didn’t have to worry about in any way and he gave her a stress free life, I figured that was a good thing, but apparently there is more to it than that, and there are things more important that she is willing to put up with a little stress if he has the other characteristics. 

Someone also mentioned that Hollywood had tainted our view that women wanted a good man. That may be true. I always assumed a nice woman who wanted a good, productive, stress free life would want a man like Mike Brady(Brady Bunch), or Charles Ingalls(Little House…). That doesn’t mean they couldn’t bring out the whips and chains in the bedroom, but I assumed there were aspects of life where a Charles Ingalls would be better to handle things. I assumed a woman would rather have a Charles Ingalls drop the kids off at school as opposed to a drunk dad. I understand that there has to be physical attraction. I get that. But if there are 2 men that a woman is equally attracted to, and one is a “good man” and the other is a troublemaker, why pick the troublemaker? 

I have a question. I know that you don’t know how all women feel and this will be an opinion, but do you feel that most women want sex, or is it really an “all planets in line” thing as many would have us believe? My cousin often jokes that if you went by the profiles on dating sites, you would get the impression that women hate sex, or it’s at least way down the list of things they enjoy. In your opinion, is that a bunch of bull, or is there some reality to it? Do you feel that most women who don’t have sex in their marriage only do so because they have lost attraction to their husband, or do they just not care for sex in general?


----------



## minimalME

Wolf1974 said:


> You’re being ridiculous. *No one is pressured for anything. These are grown ass adults flirting.* If they didn’t want to have sex then they don’t.
> 
> A woman saying 15 times in texts and the first hour of meeting she won’t kiss on the first date isn’t a prude she is being playful and flirting. 5 years later she still knows how to get me going and be playful.
> 
> Your prudish ways work for you and that’s great. Again not everyone is you. And if you didn’t get that it was a flirt and with humor I wouldn’t be stopping you from running away...I would pay for the Uber.


It would be helpful if you'd try and see this from a woman's point of view. 

I'm not asking you to agree, but Diana isn't being ridiculous, and yes, men do pressure women to have sex very quickly. 

It's happened to me over and over again. It's NOT fliriting, and the men in my life who've treated me this way were not being playful - they were quite serious.

And, OMG, being unwilling to have sex with a stranger is not being prudish.


----------



## 269370

southbound said:


> One guy on the thread turned the tables and asked, which would turn a guy on more, a woman cooking him a good meal or sending him a sexy text and telling him to hurry home. Obviously with me, the latter, but that doesn’t mean she has to be crazy in everyday life for me to be attracted to her.


Am I the only one who feels that the two are not really mutually exclusive? Having a wife cooking you a meal while texting you to say that she can't wait to .... afterwards etc is perfectly normal and does not need to imply that she is in any way crazy?


----------



## Livvie

I think the comment (sorry, forgot who it was that said it!) that just because you are a nice man doesn't mean you will automatically be attractive to a woman, JUST LIKE just because you are a nice woman doesn't mean you will automatically be attractive to a man. That doesn't mean that *******s get the partner because women are only drawn to *******s, heck NO, but it definitely means that you need to have other qualities *in addition to the nice* that draw the opposite sex.

Men seen to be mad, yes mad, that "the nice guy doesn't get the woman". But women don't get mad in the same way that "the nice woman doesn't get the man". Maybe it's because women have already internalized that it's also sexual attraction that you need to draw a partner. Simply being nice isn't enough. There has to be sexual chemistry in a more than friends sexual relationship.


----------



## Ynot

OP I think you are mashing a few terms together in your synopsis. Good men are not the same as nice guys. In fact nice guys are probably closer to being bad boys than they are to being good men. The actions may be different but the motivations are very much the same.
Anyone is capable of being a good man (or person). All it requires is honesty and respect. 
Being a nice guy or a bad boy only requires selfishness.
Many people are confused by and attracted to the various actions and attributes of the different types. But even then that is their problem and not yours or anyone else's. So a "decent" woman might be attracted to a bad boy because she imagines he fills some need she has, alternately she might mistake a good man's actions to mean he is a pushover.
I think you are attempting to derive some set understanding from one side of an equation when the reality is that both sides contain variables to which you can never be sure of their value.
The bottom line is, IMO, to just be your self. You may have to modulate who that is over time, but hopefully you will attract someone compatible with who you are. I don't think there is any guarantee but I would think the odds are better if you are honest than they would be if you attempt to attract someone compatible with what you are not.


----------



## Wolf1974

minimalME said:


> It would be helpful if you'd try and see this from a woman's point of view.
> 
> I'm not asking you to agree, but Diana isn't being ridiculous, and yes, men do pressure women to have sex very quickly.
> 
> It's happened to me over and over again. It's NOT fliriting, and the men in my life who've treated me this way were not being playful - they were quite serious.
> 
> And, OMG, being unwilling to have sex with a stranger is not being prudish.


I am seeing it from a woman’s point of view. My GF who I have been with for 5 years was the person doing the flirting on the other side and saw it then as she does now as good harmless fun. The opinion you and Diana have isn’t ridiculous, You’re entitled to it as an opinion. What is ridiculous is you both seem to think your opinion should apply to everyone..... and it doesn’t. Some women like this type of banter. And for you her to suggest that I had Ill intent of any kind shows you both are prudish in your judgements of others. You don’t like having someone casting an opinion or judgment about you I suggest you, and her, don’t cast the first stone :wink2:


----------



## minimalME

southbound said:


> I have a question. I know that you don’t know how all women feel and this will be an opinion, but do you feel that most women want sex, or is it really an “all planets in line” thing as many would have us believe? My cousin often jokes that if you went by the profiles on dating sites, you would get the impression that women hate sex, or it’s at least way down the list of things they enjoy. In your opinion, is that a bunch of bull, or is there some reality to it? Do you feel that most women who don’t have sex in their marriage only do so because they have lost attraction to their husband, or do they just not care for sex in general?


I adore sex. I want sex. I love the penis.  

Having said that though, I only want it with one man.

I'm fiercely monogamous, and I don't share.

If a man wants to sit in front of his monitor for hours each day and watch pornography, sports and video games, he should go do that.

If a man wants to have sex with a different woman every other day, or if he's into serial monogamy, he should go do that.

I enjoy my freedom, and I respect the freedom of others. I have no intention of trying to corral a man who views marriage as a prison sentence.

Since online dating includes highly promiscuous behavior, I no longer participate.

I don't know what the profiles of other women say, but when I first started online, I'd get lots of messages that were purely sexual, which is why I think some women might put disclaimers on their write ups.

In my marriage, sex was a battle from day one - me fighting for it and him making excuses. By the end, I didn't care anymore, and I wanted out. My loss of attraction and respect was 100% due to his passivity and zero to do with my level of desire.


----------



## Wolf1974

southbound said:


> THREAD REVIEW:
> 
> I appreciate all the responses. This has been very informative. So, let me see if I understand.
> 
> What I came away with is that “good men” aren’t always attractive to women. I also got the impression that there was more of a sexual component in the beginning than I thought. As you know, being with an x that wasn’t into sex has probably messed with my thoughts on that. I was also taught to be a gentleman, so i guess that's a negative in the beginning too. So, women often marry jerks because they display a masculine quality that they are attracted to that the "good men" might not display.
> 
> I assume people believe that “attraction” does lead to sex, but I’m a little confused about what a man should do to go beyond the “good man” personality when not having sex to keep a woman attracted. I have no problem with being adventurous and bad boy in the bedroom . Heck, if my wife had mentioned anything in the bedroom, I’d probably have been all for it. Being a good man doesn’t necessarily translate to being Mr. Rogers in the bedroom. But I didn’t assume that meant I had to act like a gang member when I was walking through the mall or ordering dinner with her. Maybe a guy is supposed to beat up the waiter if he gets the order wrong; would that keep the fire burning?
> 
> One guy on the thread turned the tables and asked, which would turn a guy on more, a woman cooking him a good meal or sending him a sexy text and telling him to hurry home. Obviously with me, the latter, but that doesn’t mean she has to be crazy in everyday life for me to be attracted to her.
> I always assumed if a man was the type that a woman didn’t have to worry about in any way and he gave her a stress free life, I figured that was a good thing, but apparently there is more to it than that, and there are things more important that she is willing to put up with a little stress if he has the other characteristics.
> 
> Someone also mentioned that Hollywood had tainted our view that women wanted a good man. That may be true. I always assumed a nice woman who wanted a good, productive, stress free life would want a man like Mike Brady(Brady Bunch), or Charles Ingalls(Little House…). That doesn’t mean they couldn’t bring out the whips and chains in the bedroom, but I assumed there were aspects of life where a Charles Ingalls would be better to handle things. I assumed a woman would rather have a Charles Ingalls drop the kids off at school as opposed to a drunk dad. I understand that there has to be physical attraction. I get that. But if there are 2 men that a woman is equally attracted to, and one is a “good man” and the other is a troublemaker, why pick the troublemaker?
> 
> I have a question. I know that you don’t know how all women feel and this will be an opinion, but do you feel that most women want sex, or is it really an “all planets in line” thing as many would have us believe? *My cousin often jokes that if you went by the profiles on dating sites, you would get the impression that women hate sex, or it’s at least way down the list of things they enjoy.* In your opinion, is that a bunch of bull, or is there some reality to it? Do you feel that most women who don’t have sex in their marriage only do so because they have lost attraction to their husband, or do they just not care for sex in general?


My guess is this is just a misunderstanding. Women, especially attractive women, get hit on a lot while on dating websites. They also get the **** pic often which make me wonder why some guys thinks this work lol. Maybe it does

But I would think it’s smart to not list in the profile that you are into sex or anything sex related as it would invite a lot of unwanted attention. The best way is to find people compatible and then meet to see if you have chemistry. If you do then game on.

I have also not experienced that women don’t like sex. Sure some dont just like some men dont. But as a whole I think women like sex as much as men least that’s always been my personal experience with it


----------



## minimalME

Wolf1974 said:


> I am seeing it from a woman’s point of view. My GF who I have been with for 5 years was the person doing the flirting on the other side and saw it then as she does now as good harmless fun. The opinion you and Diana have isn’t ridiculous, You’re entitled to it as an opinion. *What is ridiculous is you both seem to think your opinion should apply to everyone*..... and it doesn’t. Some women like this type of banter. And for you her to suggest that I had Ill intent of any kind shows you both are prudish in your judgements of others. You don’t like having someone casting an opinion or judgment about you I suggest you, and her, don’t cast the first stone :wink2:


Nope. I challenge you to find one post of mine where I've state that I think my way is the only way. (hint: you won't)

I totally acknowledge that my preferences are in the minority, but that in no way makes me judgemental or a prude or ridiculous. You simply don't like what I have to say. And I'm fine with that.


----------



## southbound

inmyprime said:


> Am I the only one who feels that the two are not really mutually exclusive? Having a wife cooking you a meal while texting you to say that she can't wait to .... afterwards etc is perfectly normal and does not need to imply that she is in any way crazy?


Not at all. I took his comparison to mean that a woman cooking supper wouldn't be as attractive as if she sent him a sexy text; I think he was trying to make a female comparison of the "good man" vs "bad boy." I agreed the sexy text would be more attractive, but I just meant that having a sexy woman wouldn't be worth her being crazy, not that they are related. I was trying to make the point that I didn't understand why women married crazy men just because they displayed a few other characteristics they liked. If I had a choice, I'd rather live my life with a "good woman" than one who was a sex machine, but was crazy and filled my life with drama the rest of the time. Maybe most men aren't like that.



Livvie said:


> I think the comment (sorry, forgot who it was that said it!) that just because you are a nice man doesn't mean you will automatically be attractive to a woman, JUST LIKE just because you are a nice woman doesn't mean you will automatically be attractive to a man. That doesn't mean that *******s get the partner because women are only drawn to *******s, heck NO, but it definitely means that you need to have other qualities *in addition to the nice* that draw the opposite sex.
> 
> Men seen to be mad, yes mad, that "the nice guy doesn't get the woman". But women don't get mad in the same way that "the nice woman doesn't get the man". Maybe it's because women have already internalized that it's also sexual attraction that you need to draw a partner. Simply being nice isn't enough. There has to be sexual chemistry in a more than friends sexual relationship.


I'm not mad that good men don't attract women; I'm just confused because I was raised totally different. I think women in my grandparent's generation and even my parents wanted a man the was a good person; that's what my grandmothers always talked about. I think they were more like SA. So, I was raised one way and now have to switch gears, and it's tough on the mental process. I realize that being a good man isn't an automatic attraction point. I get sexual chemistry 100%, but I never realized women were more attracted to bad boys than good men. I also feel like that sex has a lot to do with it, but as I've written before, I have no issue with being sexual; bring out the toys and games if that's what a woman wants; I'm not Mr. Rogers in the bedroom, but maybe women believe that good men are vanilla just because they are gentlemen when they meet them the first few times. I never understood why women would want a man who would bring stress to their life just because he had a few other qualities she liked. Women often complain about the "bad boy" that they have to divorce down the road, so I'm wondering why they didn't go for a better man to begin with. 



Ynot said:


> OP I think you are mashing a few terms together in your synopsis. Good men are not the same as nice guys. In fact nice guys are probably closer to being bad boys than they are to being good men. The actions may be different but the motivations are very much the same.


I'm sure you are correct. I use the term as a general description. I use "good man," "nice guy," and "decent man," interchangeably. I didn't realize when I was younger that "Nice guy" had a specific definition that was negative, so that probably causes some confusion. When I use either of the three terms, I'm indicating a man that doesn't act in a way that adds stress to a woman's life: he's a good father, doesn't cheat, doesn't abuse, works to provide, and doesn't treat her like dirt in any other way.


----------



## BluesPower

SimplyAmorous said:


> Ha ha.. Well I am off the beaten path & like to go against the grain many times .....Back then I wasn't so together.... I had "chips on my shoulder", wasn't treated well at home, hated my step mother/wanted out of that house, he felt I was emotionally abused... He was THERE for me.. He was the type I needed, not some fly by night... Someone to trust, lean on, I needed some stability... in this respect.. again he sounds like a "NICE GUY" coming in to save the Damsel (what a pathetic NO NO !!)...
> 
> And I've looked upon him as my "White Knight" dang it... and I don't want to apologize for those expressions either.. I am OK with them.
> 
> His influence has surely helped ME be a better person... Every story is unique.. these type of men can be a wonderful match for some of us... I just don't like to see them put down... makes me want to argue their case..


If we believe everything you say, then you are a unicorn. Because frankly most woman are not like you. 

My GF loves me, because of all my qualities, but she was attracted to my bad boy side. And the more she saw of it, over the first few weeks of dating the more she liked it. 

I don't carry that bad boy image around for the public to see, in fact I am a little ashamed of the number of women that I have been with. Men get SL** shamed as well you know. 

But the bad bay is there, I have learned to control him, I don't get into bar fights much any more, I drink more responsibly, but he is always there. 

But while GF love the good me, she F**** the bad boy, and I guess that is ok, she gets the best of both worlds. 

But I wonder sometimes if she really loves the good me or the bad boy, and then I wonder if it really matters...


----------



## Wolf1974

minimalME said:


> Nope. I challenge you to find one post of mine where I've state that I think my way is the only way. (hint: you won't)
> 
> I totally acknowledge that my preferences are in the minority, but that in no way makes me _*judgemental or a prude or ridiculous. *_You simply don't like what I have to say. And I'm fine with that.


BS. I was flirting and was just having fun And it was taken as such by my gf and you then say that’s pressing for sex with a stranger. Nope have no clue about me what you are talking about as it relates to my situation but you sure felt you had the right to comment about it. 

I’m totally fine if you sharing your opinion on how you see YOURE dating life... sorry that didn’t work out for you online dating can be tough for sure. Where I draw the line is comments about my opinion or how I did things or to imply it pressure women for sex. You don’t know me, clearly, and I won’t have assumptions or judgements made. If you want an opinion to stand on its own you probably shouldn’t quote a person directly if that’s how you mean it.


----------



## Wolf1974

BluesPower said:


> If we believe everything you say, then you are a unicorn. Because frankly most woman are not like you.
> 
> My GF loves me, because of all my qualities, but she was attracted to my bad boy side. And the more she saw of it, over the first few weeks of dating the more she liked it.
> 
> I don't carry that bad boy image around for the public to see, in fact I am a little ashamed of the number of women that I have been with. Men get SL** shamed as well you know.
> 
> But the bad bay is there, I have learned to control him, I don't get into bar fights much any more, I drink more responsibly, but he is always there.
> 
> But while GF love the good me, she F**** the bad boy, and I guess that is ok, she gets the best of both worlds.
> 
> But I wonder sometimes if she really loves the good me or the bad boy, and then I wonder if it really matters...


My guess is she loves the caring and dependable nature of your good guy and your confidence you maintain from being a bad boy.

I was never a bad boy like you describe. Any bar fight I was in was only job related and I wanted to be anywhere else lol. But I have confidence. And that has always served me well with women. I would also agree SA isn’t a normal women. She is heads above many from what I have seen through her years of posting :smile2:


----------



## Wolf1974

OP. I wonder though if we aren’t really talking about confidence. I think women do want a good guy, even if it’s later down the road in age. But they mostly never want a doormat or a pushover. If you don’t call them bad guy or good guy and instead call them strong guys or weak guys doesn’t it take a different context? 

Maybe women gravitate toward bad boys cause they really just want confidence and that’s where they find it? Just playing devils advocate here. Are you confident with who you are and with women.


----------



## 269370

southbound said:


> Not at all. I took his comparison to mean that a woman cooking supper wouldn't be as attractive as if she sent him a sexy text; I think he was trying to make a female comparison of the "good man" vs "bad boy." I agreed the sexy text would be more attractive, but I just meant that having a sexy woman wouldn't be worth her being crazy, not that they are related. I was trying to make the point that I didn't understand why women married crazy men just because they displayed a few other characteristics they liked. If I had a choice, I'd rather live my life with a "good woman" than one who was a sex machine, but was crazy and filled my life with drama the rest of the time. Maybe most men aren't like that.



Yes I agree then. A ‘good woman’ is always better than a ‘crazy woman’, regardless of ***** frequency.

I think the trick is to find a good woman and watch her blossom into a sex crazy sex machine by night. While still remaining a good woman by day. Or sometimes vice verse.
That’s what I have done anyway.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

minimalME said:


> I adore sex. I want sex. I love the penis.



Haha! Sorry.
I think that’s all I needed to read for this week to regain some faith in humanity.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fighter99

I don't know if anyone has said this or not but I think it has to do with how her father treats her mother. How he treats her sets the tone for what she will perceive is a good/ bad relationship. If the father constantly talks crap to the mom or hits her or treats her like she is a maid the daughter sees this and thinks that's the way it's supposed to be. If a son sees this he will probably think it's ok to treat his future girlfriends or wife that way. Unless they have a good rollmodel (doesn't have to be a parent) the children will continue with what they have seen. Absent or bad fathers lead to girls with daddy issues. Seen that several times. Another big thing is the woman is probably a "fixer". I know I fall into that category unfortunately. Sometimes women just settle because they know they are getting old and are running out of time to start a family in a traditional way.


----------



## southbound

inmyprime said:


> southbound said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all. I took his comparison to mean that a woman cooking supper wouldn't be as attractive as if she sent him a sexy text; I think he was trying to make a female comparison of the "good man" vs "bad boy." I agreed the sexy text would be more attractive, but I just meant that having a sexy woman wouldn't be worth her being crazy, not that they are related. I was trying to make the point that I didn't understand why women married crazy men just because they displayed a few other characteristics they liked. If I had a choice, I'd rather live my life with a "good woman" than one who was a sex machine, but was crazy and filled my life with drama the rest of the time. Maybe most men aren't like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I agree then. A ‘good woman’ is always better than a ‘crazy woman’, regardless of ***** frequency.
> 
> I think the trick is to find a good woman and watch her blossom into a sex crazy sex machine by night. While still remaining a good woman by day. Or sometimes vice verse.
> That’s what I have done anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

That would be the ultimate for a guy. I believe men may be attracted physically more as well. I don’t recall my x wife having to do anything specific personality-wise to keep me attracted. If she were cooking supper every night or eating chips on the sofa, it didn’t matter much to me because I thought she was attractive. Sure, a sexy text would add Flame to the fire, but the absence wouldn’t kill my attraction to her. Isn’t that what usuall creates an issue when women don’t want sex in a marriage? Even though she may act like sex is the plague, the husband still wants her. 

I guess when I think of good men, I’m thinking of men that may look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney, and they are also gentlemen. I assumed the looks might carry some weight, but maybe not. George Clooney, for example, seems like a very distinguished gentleman. Would women find him even more attractive if his persona was more of a bad boy.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

sokillme said:


> I don't think your husband is who we are talking about, at least who I am talking about when we say nice guy. The way you describe him he sounds like a leader to me, just cause he doesn't like football dosn't mean he can't be an alpha. At least in my book.


I don't like that the term NICE has been turned into what it has... I'm with Southbound.. I use the term GOOD / NICE interchangeably...I bought that book years ago and could point out a few areas where my H was pegged in some of those.. but all in all he is Genuine & had the best of intentions.. 

You speak of Alpha... He is surely tipped MORE BETA over Alpha... Dominance.. No -- I am more dominate in personality over him (but it's OK... I still respect the hell out of him, because he is a GOOD MAN ).... if he was lazy, wasted our money, cheated on me, getting drunk, had addictions, etc etc .... I can't even imagine living with some of that... 

Our life is smooth, pleasant....he's the Protector /Provider type.. he never complains, always comes home with a smile, very giving... he's purely a FAMILY man with all the traits associated with that... as BETA is swimming in... 

I post this as this is what Southbound can't seem to wrap his brain around.... men with those TRAITS sound wonderful.. yet many women aren't attracted to them!!

There are other reasons I feel so strongly in what I wanted in a man.. and what I didn't...At the tender age of 9... I watched my mother, my best friend, have a Nervous breakdown after she opened the door to a # of "Bad boy" types after the divorce....she was HIGHLY attracted to one of them...she meant nothing but a hole to him...the one guy who treated her good... she didn't want him! I remember liking that one !.. :wtf: 

I'd hear them in the bedroom...paper thin walls.. my 1st introduction to sex.... there was no love/ no connection or care... they came.. they left after she was squeezed boxed... she was even beat up over sex a couple times.... from a young age.. I vowed that will NEVER happen to me!.. I deplore men like that.. then she married an alcoholic and I seen what that sort of life will bring ... she made EVERY mistake in choosing men & suffered for it .. 

I wanted better for my life...some lessons were branded on me.. 

She has told me "Passion" was her downfall.... she has also said she would Not be attracted to a man like my husband... so there you go.. 

Thankfully I had a Mentor in my Grandmother next door, she would share how Grandpa wooed her, waited for her, it was a beautiful love story... they had a wonderful marriage.. I prayed to find a man like that someday..



> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> 
> *Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


As far as attraction goes... visually speaking....lanky men have always caught my eye... my H is very thin...he was geeky with those glasses, but I remember early on undressing him in my mind.. removing those glasses, give him some long hair....I remember saying to myself.. "Oh he'll do... he's got the body type I love"


----------



## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't like that the term NICE has been turned into what it has... I'm with Southbound.. I use the term GOOD / NICE interchangeably...I bought that book years ago and could point out a few areas where my H was pegged in some of those.. but all in all he is Genuine & had the best of intentions..
> 
> You speak of Alpha... He is surely tipped MORE BETA over Alpha... Dominance.. No -- I am more dominate in personality over him (but it's OK... I still respect the hell out of him, because he is a GOOD MAN ).... if he was lazy, wasted our money, cheated on me, getting drunk, had addictions, etc etc .... I can't even imagine living with some of that...
> 
> Our life is smooth, pleasant....he's the Protector /Provider type.. he never complains, always comes home with a smile, very giving... he's purely a FAMILY man with all the traits associated with that... as BETA is swimming in...
> 
> I post this as this is what Southbound can't seem to wrap his brain around.... men with those TRAITS sound wonderful.. yet many women aren't attracted to them!!
> 
> There are other reasons I feel so strongly in what I wanted in a man.. and what I didn't...At the tender age of 9... I watched my mother, my best friend, have a Nervous breakdown after she opened the door to a # of "Bad boy" types after the divorce....she was HIGHLY attracted to one of them...she meant nothing but a hole to him...the one guy who treated her good... she didn't want him! I remember liking that one !.. :wtf:
> 
> I'd hear them in the bedroom...paper thin walls.. my 1st introduction to sex.... there was no love/ no connection or care... they came.. they left after she was squeezed boxed... she was even beat up over sex a couple times.... from a young age.. I vowed that will NEVER happen to me!.. I deplore men like that.. then she married an alcoholic and I seen what that sort of life will bring ... she made EVERY mistake in choosing men & suffered for it ..
> 
> I wanted better for my life...some lessons were branded on me..
> 
> She has told me "Passion" was her downfall.... she has also said she would Not be attracted to a man like my husband... so there you go..
> 
> Thankfully I had a Mentor in my Grandmother next door, she would share how Grandpa wooed her, waited for her, it was a beautiful love story... they had a wonderful marriage.. I prayed to find a man like that someday..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as attraction goes... visually speaking....lanky men have always caught my eye... my H is very thin...he was geeky with those glasses, but I remember early on undressing him in my mind.. removing those glasses, give him some long hair....I remember saying to myself.. "Oh he'll do... he's got the body type I love"


I don't buy the Alpha - Beta traits as they are talked about here. I think an Alpha is a guy who leads and gets **** done. Who is morally and mentally strong. I don't think it has **** to do with riding motorcycles and being a bad boy. Low class women think that way. No one is going to tell me Steve Job's or Bill Gates isn't an Alpha, for 10 years Bill Gates was the richest man in the world. He owned more money then most countries. That dude is a major Alpha in my mind. He built that whole company. So what if he looks like and is a geek. Maybe that doesn't translate into lots of women, but not so sure. 12 billion dollars and you can find some women. He didn't care about that though he was into software. In my mind any guy who is intensely focused and can achieve stuff like that is an alpha, much more then some Red Pill guy who can hold his frame. 

Also Alpha doesn't mean loud and pushy. Believe it or not in my normal life I am pretty laid back, but I am also confident. I know I am not a beta though. By the time I met my wife I had no trouble finding women to date. I am probably more of the traits on the beta list then the alpha. I don't ride a motorcycle. I do drive a muscle car though. Oh, and I kinda stared down a gun and saved a women's life once, so there's that... Also that wasn't heroic that was, well I don't know where that came from, and then 10 years of recovery. 0 So ehh.... What do I know.

Besides all that why can't you be both those things.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

sokillme said:


> I don't buy the Alpha - Beta traits as they are talked about here. I think an Alpha is a guy who leads and gets **** done. Who is morally and mentally strong. I don't think it has **** to do with riding motorcycles and being a bad boy. Low class women think that way. No one is going to tell me Steve Job's or Bill Gates isn't an Alpha, for 10 years Bill Gates was the richest man in the world. He owned more money then most countries. That dude is a major Alpha in my mind. He built that whole company. So what if he looks like and is a geek. Maybe that doesn't translate into lots of women, but not so sure. *12 billion dollars and you can find some women. *He didn't care about that though he was into software. In my mind any guy who is intensely focused and can achieve stuff like that is an alpha, much more then some Red Pill guy who can hold his frame.


 Most women would not be attracted to Bill Gates if he wasn't the Rich successful man he is... personally I may be even if he wasn't rich cause he is lanky ... ha ha ...

I would prefer a man less successful and more family oriented though.. I like that my husbands main hobby is spending time with his family...that would likely be boring to many women.. but I prefer that sort of male. 

I tend to see the term ALPHA in a bad light.. when I hear a man boasting he is an ALPHA.. I basically think he has to be an A-hole.. I can't help it.. I need a brain re haul to not go there... just as you see BETA as all puzzy whipped & everything negative .... I did a thread on this years ago .... you've probably came across it back then...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ns-beta-male-good-all-p-whipped-pathetic.html



> Besides all that why can't you be both those things.


 Absolutely...it sums it up here...taken from that thread ..

..."So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex.* You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage* to maximize her desire to have sex with you".....


----------



## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> Most women would not be attracted to Bill Gates if he wasn't the Rich successful man he is... personally I may be even if he wasn't rich cause he is lanky ... ha ha ...
> 
> 12 billion, thee would be more then a few. For 12 billion reasons.
> 
> I would prefer a man less successful and more family oriented though.. I like that my husbands main hobby is spending time with his family...that would likely be boring to many women.. but I prefer that sort of male.
> 
> I tend to see the term ALPHA in a bad light.. when I hear a man boasting he is an ALPHA.. I basically think he has to be an A-hole.. I can't help it.. I need a brain re haul to not go there... just as you see BETA as all puzzy whipped & everything negative .... I did a thread on this years ago .... you've probably came across it back then...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ns-beta-male-good-all-p-whipped-pathetic.html
> 
> Absolutely...it sums it up here.. taken from that thread about the 2...
> 
> So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex.* You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage* to maximize her desire to have sex with you.....


I agree completely with the last part.


----------



## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> Most women would not be attracted to Bill Gates if he wasn't the Rich successful man he is... personally I may be even if he wasn't rich cause he is lanky ... ha ha ...
> 
> 12 billion, there would be more then a few. For 12 billion reasons.
> 
> I would prefer a man less successful and more family oriented though.. I like that my husbands main hobby is spending time with his family...that would likely be boring to many women.. but I prefer that sort of male.
> 
> I tend to see the term ALPHA in a bad light.. when I hear a man boasting he is an ALPHA.. I basically think he has to be an A-hole.. I can't help it.. I need a brain re haul to not go there... just as you see BETA as all puzzy whipped & everything negative .... I did a thread on this years ago .... you've probably came across it back then...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ns-beta-male-good-all-p-whipped-pathetic.html
> 
> Absolutely...it sums it up here.. taken from that thread about the 2...
> 
> So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex.* You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage* to maximize her desire to have sex with you.....


I agree completely with the last part.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

sokillme said:


> I agree completely with the last part.


Then you must not totally deny Athol Kay's interpretations of these terms....of everything I have read.. they make the most sense to me... Even if it keeps me saying my husband is tipped Beta.. so what... one thing so called "alpha" about him is... he could care less what anyone thinks.. if they wanted to call him a puzzy.. he'd just tell them he was a happy puzzy... 

He did say that to me once - when discussing these things.. I worry far more about being liked or fitting in -over him.. so maybe he's more confident than me.. but I am more mouthy and assertive.. go figure.. 

This is an old post.. one I often share to explain these differences....and the fine balance needed.... taken from this thread ... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/65710-alpha-males-tooth-fairy.html



Entropy3000 said:


> Pure Alpha males are not leaders. Pure Beta men are not leaders. It takes a balance of the positive qualities to be a leader. There pure extremes will not occur in nature but it is a sliding scale.
> 
> The confusion is when folks want to view Alpha as superior to Beta and so on as a scale of a quality man and that is not what it is about at all. In fact magnitude comes into play as well. You can have two fairly balanced men with one of them posessing high Alpha and High Beta traits while the other posesses lower Alpha and lower Beta traits. They both have a balance but they are very different people.
> 
> A child is in a burning home and needs help :
> 
> An extreme Beta male cares very much for the child and only wishes someone could help the child. He is paralyzed by his own fear and lacks the confidence to be decisive and take action. He looks to others to save the child.
> 
> An extreme Alpha male has the capability to do something but is too selfish to risk their own well being.
> 
> *A quality man with high Alpha and high Beta traits of the right combination will be driven to action. They are compelled by their Beta feelings to invoke the Alpha within them. They get past the fear and show courage. They are decisive. They know that they are the child's only chance. They take the risk knowing they may not survive themselves. That is very Beta, but it is also very Alpha. The combination is what makes the man.*
> 
> A good leader cares about their people. They are strong for the group. There are not a lot of good leaders.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

purplesunsets said:


> Interesting post! I can't speak for an entire group of people, but I can speak on behalf of my own experience and those women close to me..
> 
> I think this could happen for a few reasons:
> 
> 1. The bait and switch, a classic move . I've been with many men who started the relationship "wooing" me and showing me their best qualities, only to slowly unveil their true nature, by which point I had already become emotionally invested and found it hard to untangle myself.
> *2. Low self-esteem. I've countlessly rejected quality men because I unconsciously thought something was wrong with them to be so kind to someone like me. I had no confidence, no self-love, and thought I deserved to be treated the same way I viewed myself. I can recognize this now that I have more confidence and self-love, I accept love from kind men now. *


 Thank you for sharing these points.... I've read of women feeling this way.. it's not something I fully understand... Looking at myself back then...I doubt I had much confidence....I wasn't popular in school, everyone had nicer clothes / a better family life, I wasn't a brain, wasn't in any activities, I was shy unless someone really knew me ....I think due to my H being Geekish... knowing women weren't swarming for him anyway.. I felt confident AROUND HIM ...I was bubbly and friendly.. he was very easy to open up to... 

I lavished all the care that came my way... I have expressed it as "when goodness walked into my life, I wanted to hold on to it ... it brightened my world... gave me hope"... 

How does one not seek out those who treat us well ...Don't we all gravitate to such people , especially when we are feeling at our lowest ? I was angry that I had a lousy home life...felt cheated even.....but I never felt I didn't deserve goodness coming my way... 



> 3. The thrill. Good quality, kind, intelligent men can be predictable, which I now see as a good thing. But in my "bad boy" years, I liked the thrill of a mysterious, hard to tie down guy. I guess this is a maturity thing.


 Good men are generally "Predictable".. as they are very dependable, respectful, Honest, stable... I have complained to my husband he is too predictable in the past.. I don't know if he can help it - though like Southbound... I would choose stable and predicable over mysterious & adventurous if I had to put up with some of the unfavorable things that so often go along with these traits. 



> 4. Fear of REAL commitment and REAL love. This can be said for many, regardless of gender. Sometimes people are too scared to have a real relationship, a real commitment, so they choose someone they know they can keep at arms' length. I did this with many exes. I was too scared to have anything real, so I chose men who couldn't offer anything substantial.


 I have never felt this.. I wanted this a great deal, prayed to find that special person... I did fear getting hurt -like we all do... 

It's interesting to hear others speak so openly here as I bet what you share here is precisely WHY people are always getting hurt.. they feel like this.. and can't get close.. they fear the vulnerability... when it gets too REAL.. they RUN...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

minimalME said:


> When dating, I agree that I'm the one who says yes or no to sex. But I wouldn't stop seeing someone for wanting it. After all, most men do. However, the delivery matters. I've been pressured and even bullied about sex _a lot_. When you're dating many people, it gets old fast.


 I expect a man to push the boundaries a little... most of us don't mind this... so long as he respects if we want to take it slow... it's if/when he can't handle this.. if he dumps us after a few dates cause he can't wait.. we will know taking the time to get to know the inner US --to open us UP to him.. leading to intimacy.. was not worth his time... 



southbound said:


> I guess when I think of good men, I’m thinking of men that may look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney, and they are also gentlemen. I assumed the looks might carry some weight, but maybe not. George Clooney, for example, seems like a very distinguished gentleman. Would women find him even more attractive if his persona was more of a bad boy.


Clooney WAS a notorious Playboy for most of his life.... for this ...I could never see him on par as a Gentleman like my Grandfather was, for instance .... I realize others don't measure a man like that.. (success is more important to most people today and/or being drop dead gorgeous in our saturated hooking up culture).... 

I've just always felt...if a man can sleep around, woman after woman after woman after woman with no care for lasting intimacy, or giving his life to share with someone.... all I see is : non committal /not the marrying type / pleasure seeker / user ...therefore not a "Good man". 

Though in his old age, he has settled down & started a family.. his wife ought to feel like she is the most prized woman on the planet to have "captured" this one...


----------



## Andy1001

SimplyAmorous said:


> minimalME said:
> 
> 
> 
> When dating, I agree that I'm the one who says yes or no to sex. But I wouldn't stop seeing someone for wanting it. After all, most men do. However, the delivery matters. I've been pressured and even bullied about sex _a lot_. When you're dating many people, it gets old fast.
> 
> 
> 
> I expect a man to push the boundaries a little... most of us don't mind this... so long as he respects if we want to take it slow... it's if/when he can't handle this.. if he dumps us after a few dates cause he can't wait.. we will know taking the time to get to know the inner US --to open us UP to him.. leading to intimacy.. was not worth his time...
> 
> 
> 
> southbound said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess when I think of good men, I’m thinking of men that may look like Brad Pitt or George Clooney, and they are also gentlemen. I assumed the looks might carry some weight, but maybe not. George Clooney, for example, seems like a very distinguished gentleman. Would women find him even more attractive if his persona was more of a bad boy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Clooney WAS a notorious Playboy for most of his life.... for this ...I could never see him on par as a Gentleman like my Grandfather was, for instance .... I realize others don't measure a man like that.. (success is more important to most people today and/or being drop dead gorgeous in our saturated hooking up culture)....
> 
> I've just always felt...if a man can sleep around, woman after woman after woman after woman with no care for lasting intimacy, or giving his life to share with someone.... all I see is : non committal /not the marrying type / pleasure seeker / user ...therefore not a "Good man".
> 
> Though in his old age, he has settled down & started a family.. his wife ought to feel like she is the most prized woman on the planet to have "captured" this one...
Click to expand...

I can’t agree with you on this point,just because someone dated a lot when they were single it doesn’t correlate that he would make a bad husband or father. 
People can take years to meet “the one” and then be completely faithful to her.


----------



## BluesPower

Andy1001 said:


> People can take years to meet “the one” and then be completely faithful to her.


I can attest to this one for sure. My GF knows about my past, no numbers, and she worries sometimes. 

What she does not really understand it that she IS THE ONE. I don't need to have sex with other woman, I found the best of the best. Yes of course the sex is astounding, even though she was inexperienced. 

I tell he when she worries that there is not another woman in the world that could make me mess this thing we have up. I have sampled what's out there, I really have no need to sample any more. 

I still get hit on, and exs are constantly sniffing around, and I just turn my nose up, I am not interested...


----------



## Andy1001

BluesPower said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> People can take years to meet “the one” and then be completely faithful to her.
> 
> 
> 
> I can attest to this one for sure. My GF knows about my past, no numbers, and she worries sometimes.
> 
> What she does not really understand it that she IS THE ONE. I don't need to have sex with other woman, I found the best of the best. Yes of course the sex is astounding, even though she was inexperienced.
> 
> I tell he when she worries that there is not another woman in the world that could make me mess this thing we have up. I have sampled what's out there, I really have no need to sample any more.
> 
> I still get hit on, and exs are constantly sniffing around, and I just turn my nose up, I am not interested...
Click to expand...

It’s like the old saying,”why have a burger when you have steak at home”.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

southbound said:


> THREAD REVIEW:
> 
> One guy on the thread turned the tables and asked, which would turn a guy on more, a woman cooking him a good meal or sending him a sexy text and telling him to hurry home. Obviously with me, the latter, but that doesn’t mean she has to be crazy in everyday life for me to be attracted to her.
> I always assumed if a man was the type that a woman didn’t have to worry about in any way and he gave her a stress free life, I figured that was a good thing, but apparently there is more to it than that, and there are things more important that she is willing to put up with a little stress if he has the other characteristics.


In a LTR, I'd rather have the home cooked meal. Sexy texts doesn't nothing for me and for some odd reason they are actually somewhat a turn off. Maybe if it was some random chick that was really hot and I wanted to nail. But once you milk that cow a few times, it just becomes silly. Just cook me a nice dinner, rub my tummy and I'm yours.


----------



## personofinterest

> I know this has been asked and covered a thousand times, but it never ceases to amaze me why some women who are attractive, nice, and have a good job will marry a jerk when there are decent men around. I just don’t get it.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. MANY of these guy who lament on forums that "women should want me because I'm nice/decent/polite/ etc" and blame the bad boys...

AREN'T actually nice/decent. They are awkward and entitled and when the same woman they think should date them because they are nice says "no," the become whiny monsters who rant, say she led them on, call her names, etc.

There's good men who can be assertive or non-assertive.

Then there is this "nice guy" phenomenon where the guy is anything BUT nice. It's a game of politeness that he assumes entitles him to sex with a 10. This man will never find love because he doesn't actually know how to love. And no really good woman will say "yes" because we can spot his unabomber vibe a mile away lol


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Christ.
This is a lot of talk on a basic subject. (I believe I'll get grief for saying it simply). But I'm older and lived through most of it.
A good man starts as one as having a great work ethic and loves women, and respects women, and really, really likes to have fun with women. Tall helps, longer hair (early in life, maybe later too). Some ride a motorcycle when younger. Some don't. I'm the former. But coat and tie after college. Such a man loves to chase women when single, doesn't sweat the small stuff, knows one day he'll settle down, does, learns how to better communicate, meets his responsibilities, doesn't cheat, still loves sex with wife, and still looks good. And always is the biggest fan of his wife, because they chose each other. And is still unpredictable at times good and bad, but not terrible. 

Balance......


----------



## sokillme

SimplyAmorous said:


> Then you must not totally deny Athol Kay's interpretations of these terms....of everything I have read.. they make the most sense to me... Even if it keeps me saying my husband is tipped Beta.. so what... one thing so called "alpha" about him is... he could care less what anyone thinks.. if they wanted to call him a puzzy.. he'd just tell them he was a happy puzzy...
> 
> He did say that to me once - when discussing these things.. I worry far more about being liked or fitting in -over him.. so maybe he's more confident than me.. but I am more mouthy and assertive.. go figure..
> 
> This is an old post.. one I often share to explain these differences....and the fine balance needed.... taken from this thread ... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/65710-alpha-males-tooth-fairy.html


I agree with this but I think the Alpha and Beta thing is silly. Lots of men who act like Betas, and are wishy washy still are able to attract women, it's just the women get tired of pulling all the weight. Some women like to be in charge. Some men like their wives to be in charge. I look at it like I said in the paragraph above. You need to be strong emotionally, you need to lead, but you also need to be emotionally intelligent and provide for you family. That includes monetarily but also emotional support to a certain extent. To do that you need to be emotionally strong and just capable in general. I pretty much just don't agree with the Red pill definitions but the Red pill definitions are really about getting a lot of sex anyway. They do work for that with really low quality women don't think they are necessarily good for marriage. Maybe if you marry the same type of women. That is how they see value as a man as well (sex count). That is not and has never been what I rate my value. I like sex and think it is very important to a relationship, but there were lots of years I wasn't having sex by my own choice. I wasn't interested in a lot of strange sex anyway. So guess I am a beta in their eyes, so be it. I think I have a pretty good marriage though.

I DO see the value in being a leader, emotional intimacy and looking good for my wife. So I think it's important to do these things. For instance however my wife wants to pay the bills because she worries about them, so I let her but we use a joint account for that and I know what is going on with the money. All our major money decisions have been made as a team. I don't have to be the king of the castle but I will not accept disrespect. But that is not just from my wife, from anyone. If she did that to me say in front of friends or even just arguing it would be hard on her. That would just be too uncomfortable. It is for anyone who does that. I have told teachers and even bosses to cut the crap, in a nice way but still they cut the crap. My wife would never have a reason to disrespect me anyway. I would also say we are a team, but I think I set the tone for the relationship and life in general. She sets the tone in the home. Does that make sense? 

The truth is I don't need my wife. My life's happiness are not predicated on our relationship. If we were to breakup I would take an asset hit but I would recover in a few years. I have no doubt that I could find someone else to marry me and probably would enjoy the process. But if I didn't I could still be happy. I am with my wife only because I love her and wanted to dedicate my life to her. That's it. Same is true for her, when she met me she was a little older then me, 30. She already had a condo and was well established in her career. I hold no allusions that she is with me other then because she loves me and wants to be. My wife is the most capable person I know. That is part of what makes our relationship work. We are very much a team. 

So there you go. Every marriage is different. I think 95% of your success is in who you pick. To pick right though you need to know what you are looking for and what not to look for. To know that you also need to know yourself. The most important thing in the selection is character.


----------



## samyeagar

southbound said:


> THREAD REVIEW:
> 
> I appreciate all the responses. This has been very informative. So, let me see if I understand.
> 
> What I came away with is that “good men” aren’t always attractive to women. I also got the impression that there was more of a sexual component in the beginning than I thought. As you know, being with an x that wasn’t into sex has probably messed with my thoughts on that. I was also taught to be a gentleman, so i guess that's a negative in the beginning too. So, women often marry jerks because they display a masculine quality that they are attracted to that the "good men" might not display.
> 
> I assume people believe that “attraction” does lead to sex, but I’m a little confused about what a man should do to go beyond the “good man” personality when not having sex to keep a woman attracted. I have no problem with being adventurous and bad boy in the bedroom . Heck, if my wife had mentioned anything in the bedroom, I’d probably have been all for it. Being a good man doesn’t necessarily translate to being Mr. Rogers in the bedroom. But I didn’t assume that meant I had to act like a gang member when I was walking through the mall or ordering dinner with her. Maybe a guy is supposed to beat up the waiter if he gets the order wrong; would that keep the fire burning?
> 
> One guy on the thread turned the tables and asked, which would turn a guy on more, a woman cooking him a good meal or sending him a sexy text and telling him to hurry home. Obviously with me, the latter, but that doesn’t mean she has to be crazy in everyday life for me to be attracted to her.
> *I always assumed if a man was the type that a woman didn’t have to worry about in any way and he gave her a stress free life, I figured that was a good thing, but apparently there is more to it than that, and there are things more important that she is willing to put up with a little stress if he has the other characteristics*.
> 
> Someone also mentioned that Hollywood had tainted our view that women wanted a good man. That may be true. I always assumed a nice woman who wanted a good, productive, stress free life would want a man like Mike Brady(Brady Bunch), or Charles Ingalls(Little House…). That doesn’t mean they couldn’t bring out the whips and chains in the bedroom, but I assumed there were aspects of life where a Charles Ingalls would be better to handle things. I assumed a woman would rather have a Charles Ingalls drop the kids off at school as opposed to a drunk dad. I understand that there has to be physical attraction. I get that. But if there are 2 men that a woman is equally attracted to, and one is a “good man” and the other is a troublemaker, why pick the troublemaker?
> 
> I have a question. I know that you don’t know how all women feel and this will be an opinion, but do you feel that most women want sex, or is it really an “all planets in line” thing as many would have us believe? My cousin often jokes that if you went by the profiles on dating sites, you would get the impression that women hate sex, or it’s at least way down the list of things they enjoy. In your opinion, is that a bunch of bull, or is there some reality to it? Do you feel that most women who don’t have sex in their marriage only do so because they have lost attraction to their husband, or do they just not care for sex in general?


There is a very subtle, yet crucial distinction that many men miss. There is a difference between things that are attractive and things that are unattractive. Just because something is not unattractive does not mean that it is attractive by default. In fact, many not unattractive things are not attractive in any way. Take for instance doing housework. That in and of itself is not usually something that is attractive. It merely does not add to the unattractive category. A nice relaxing, stress free life may succeed in not adding to the unattractive category, but it does not necessarily add anything to the attractive category.

As to the bit about whether or not women want sex...women don't want sex until they find a man they want sex with.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

For all the "nice guy" references....the part to ignore is where you're being told not to bring up sex. 

if you like a woman you're on a first date with find a way to let her know you want to have sex with her ie she's very very desirable to you. Don't be rude, crude, or obnoxious but make your point. It might work, but the thing she has to know you want her in that way. Not that you're a hanger-on, lord no, but she'll remember you believe she's desirable to you. And this isn't a ploy, or a game, just an honest start.

Or date your sister Nancy.  I just added that part.


----------



## I shouldnthave

Okay I admit - I haven't read every post, but here is my short and sweet answer. 

Why do some "great" women choose to be with jerks and dirt bags?

*Because they do not believe that they deserve better*. Maybe their dad was a jerk, or absent. Maybe their parents were a horrible model as to what relationships should look like. 

Maybe she was abused, mistreated in some way that destroyed her self esteem. Maybe she was never raised in a way that fostered confidence, perhaps she was once confident, and a horrible experience took that away.

I haven't know any self assured, confident, assertive women, who had a high sense of self - who have shacked up with Aholes. But I have known many lovely, caring, good hearted women, who for whatever reason lacked that feeling, deep down, to demand better for themselves - and let jerks into their lives. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> In a LTR, I'd rather have the home cooked meal. Sexy texts doesn't nothing for me and for some odd reason they are actually somewhat a turn off. Maybe if it was some random chick that was really hot and I wanted to nail. But once you milk that cow a few times, it just becomes silly. Just cook me a nice dinner, rub my tummy and I'm yours.


Gah really? I have found keeping PASSION alive to be an essential part to happiness in my relationship. 

Sure, I LOVE to cook, and make dinner every night - but if my husband texted me "whats for dinner tonight, so looking forward to your amazing meals!" rather than "when are you getting home? Hurry, I can't wait to have you...."

I am going to be WAY MORE excited about going home to the second text than the first one!!


----------



## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't like that the term NICE has been turned into what it has... I'm with Southbound.. I use the term GOOD / NICE interchangeably...I bought that book years ago and could point out a few areas where my H was pegged in some of those.. but all in all he is Genuine & had the best of intentions..
> 
> You speak of Alpha... He is surely tipped MORE BETA over Alpha... Dominance.. No -- I am more dominate in personality over him (but it's OK... I still respect the hell out of him, because he is a GOOD MAN ).... if he was lazy, wasted our money, cheated on me, getting drunk, had addictions, etc etc .... I can't even imagine living with some of that...
> 
> Our life is smooth, pleasant....he's the Protector /Provider type.. he never complains, always comes home with a smile, very giving... he's purely a FAMILY man with all the traits associated with that... as BETA is swimming in...
> 
> I post this as this is what Southbound can't seem to wrap his brain around.... men with those TRAITS sound wonderful.. yet many women aren't attracted to them!!


Great description, and you are correct about what I can't wrap my brain around. What women wouldn't want what you have? I don't get it. 





gowithuhtred said:


> Christ. This is a lot of talk on a basic subject.


Isn't that the truth. My simple question is basically why do women marry jerks that they have to divorce later in life when there are good men out there? Why aren't women attracted to decent men? This has went on 11 pages, and I'm not sure I understand anything better than I did. :surprise: That's why i say that relationships are waaaaaaaaay too complicated to be in and have peace of mind.

Apparently every woman who was a role model in my life while growing up was like SimplyAmorous. That's where I got my idea of what normal was when it came to forming a relationship. I didn't realize I needed to buy a Harley and get in a fist fight with everybody who looks at me sideways to attract a woman. I thought women wanted stability and a drama free life.


----------



## BluesPower

southbound said:


> Great description, and you are correct about what I can't wrap my brain around. What women wouldn't want what you have? I don't get it.
> 
> Isn't that the truth. My simple question is basically why do women marry jerks that they have to divorce later in life when there are good men out there? Why aren't women attracted to decent men? This has went on 11 pages, and I'm not sure I understand anything better than I did. :surprise: That's why i say that relationships are waaaaaaaaay too complicated to be in and have peace of mind.
> 
> Apparently every woman who was a role model in my life while growing up was like SimplyAmorous. That's where I got my idea of what normal was when it came to forming a relationship. I didn't realize I needed to buy a Harley and get in a fist fight with everybody who looks at me sideways to attract a woman. I thought women wanted stability and a drama free life.


Bottom line, most woman are not attracted to "Nice Guys", sorry to use that term. They just are not. While I am not saying it is fair, I am not saying that it is healthy, I am saying that it is. 

Unless you catch most women at that stage of life, where they are ready to marry, and have kids right this second, the do not want a "Nice Guy". 

And may of those that marry "nice guys" cheat on them because the NG is not sexually experienced enough or sexually powerful enough to keep a woman sexually interested in them. 

It is like this: I told a friend of my GF's that: "If it was too easy for my GF to straighten my Ass out, then she would not feel like she accomplished anything".

This is the way that it is, in almost every circumstance the "nice guy" finishes last...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

BluesPower said:


> I can attest to this one for sure. My GF knows about my past, no numbers, and she worries sometimes.
> 
> What she does not really understand it that she IS THE ONE. I don't need to have sex with other woman, *I found the best of the best.* Yes of course the sex is astounding, even though she was inexperienced.
> 
> I tell he when she worries that there is not another woman in the world that could make me mess this thing we have up. *I have sampled what's out there, I really have no need to sample any more.*
> 
> I still get hit on, and exs are constantly sniffing around, and I just turn my nose up, I am not interested...


And what you describe here is very SAD to me... for those exs... Yeah I look at all angles.. how many were left heartbroken, struggling to get over you, trust issues grew out of being with you....maybe they had a long line where they were never "good enough", never special to anyone... 

I (personally) never wanted to be someone a man could so easily throw away & never look back .... when I gave myself to a man, I wanted to know he was head over heals /committed , enthralled with me... before we went there... I look upon sex as something deeply special ("Romantic view"-below)... We grew emotionally, sharing so much about each other before his hands were sliding down my pants...and it came so naturally once this was established...and No, I didn't want him to stop! 

This is very old fashioned, I realize this.... This is what my experience has been...what I hoped it would be.... Also it meant so much to him, this wasn't a "just my feelings" thing while he suffered ... He deeply valued what I did.... 

I just don't care for the typical "modern man", Clooney types, any of them...

For me.. what I consider "Good guys" (which isn't a bad word) ultimately desire to be exclusive, share their lives with someone .. a sexually active bachelor lifestyle would find itself hollow to such men - like something was missing (true intimacy)...they take the time to get to know a woman before taking her to bed.. and when they do.. they are "in love" with her... and can't think of being with anyone else. They allow the flame to build...while they emotionally bond... 

I understand many times this may not work out ...but it's "the ideal" if one feels as I have described...

Men & women share varying views on sex & what it means to them... I've always felt this too is a "compatibility" issue... or should be.. to avoid misunderstanding and deep hurt...

I explained the varying views HERE 




> *3. ** Romantic View *~ "save yourself for the one, your beloved"
> 
> Sex should be reserved for those who are deeply in love with the strings of emotional attachment/commitment. Loveless sex is not appropriate, People should be sexually faithful as long as love lasts. Those who hold the romantic view often talk in terms of sex as sacred, as a Gift to be preserved & given to someone of profound significance.
> 
> Romantic view holds that sex should be connected with a thirst for deep psychological & bodily knowledge, Mutually reciprocated gift-giving & intimacy are it's purpose.
> 
> The feeling of being in love is a feeling that one’s beloved is an irreplaceable soul mate.
> 
> Complications arise, however, when romantic feelings do not last or when someone who has made a commitment to sexual exclusivity finds himself or herself in love with someone else.
> 
> The romantic view emphasizes interpersonal intimacy, but sees the duration of commitment as contingent. Commitment lasts for as long as romantic love lasts. But commitment is a must. A one-time encounter with a stranger may be consensual -but it would not be appropriate for those who hold the Romantic view.


----------



## BluesPower

SimplyAmorous said:


> And what you describe here is very SAD to me... for those exs... Yeah I look at all angles.. how many were left heartbroken, struggling to get over you, trust issues grew out of being with you....maybe they had a long line where they were never "good enough", never special to anyone...
> 
> I (personally) never wanted to be someone a man could so easily throw away & never look back .... when I gave myself to a man, I wanted to know he was head over heals /committed , enthralled with me... before we went there... I look upon sex as something deeply special ("Romantic view"-below)... We grew emotionally, sharing so much about each other before his hands were sliding down my pants...and it came so naturally once this was established...and No, I didn't want him to stop!


Well, I get what you are saying. I don't feel that way. I am romantic, but every sexual encounter was not a relationship. 

Yes I have broken some hearts, never was it intentional though. If it was a relationship I was all in. It usually ended with her (them) doing something crazy, or finding out about some emotional issue. And one thing I don't do is crazy. 

Not everyone feels the way you do, I am glad it works for you. 

But you know, none of those women were lied to, they were not raped, they wanted to be with me. 

Do you think I did something wrong? I mean, I like women, I find them beautiful, I like to be with them. 

Where did I go wrong???


----------



## SimplyAmorous

BluesPower said:


> Not everyone feels the way you do, I am glad it works for you.


 you think I don't realize this







.. I completely get that even speaking about how I think/ feel makes people look at me sideways... I guess I can at least give this forum some flavor of a different perspective....



> But you know, none of those women were lied to, they were not raped, they wanted to be with me.


 Many women are lied to, and led to believe the man cared.. if you didn't ... it is commendable...I'll give you that... more should be so forthright ... but men know this doesn't often go well..



> Do you think I did something wrong? I mean, I like women, I find them beautiful, I like to be with them.
> 
> Where did I go wrong???


 To be honest with you.. I tend to look upon the woman more so to put on the brakes if SHE KNOWS she may get hurt, knows she really wants a relationship, to speak how to take things slow....to see what he is made of , how he treats her.... 

And you are right.. many women (today more so than in the past) just want to jump the hot guys bones for a night.. and move along to another man the next night, it's all about the Pleasure / excitement....seen it posted here yrs ago on a thread...on dating profiles.. the buzz word is FUN" for being up for sex the 1st night...

This is the "SEX is just SEX" view... nothing is wrong with it if both feel this way... they should seek each other out !!! Emotional attachment is not something important to them, at least not in the moment..


----------



## southbound

Believe it or not, I visited friends tonight, and they were talking about a woman 50 who divorced after 23 years. I actually knew the woman. They said she was married to a want-to-be musician who drank, and she had to keep him up financially. 

I was hard for me to feel sorry for her.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I shouldnthave said:


> Gah really? I have found keeping PASSION alive to be an essential part to happiness in my relationship.
> 
> Sure, I LOVE to cook, and make dinner every night - but if my husband texted me "whats for dinner tonight, so looking forward to your amazing meals!" rather than "when are you getting home? Hurry, I can't wait to have you...."
> 
> I am going to be WAY MORE excited about going home to the second text than the first one!!


Well, it gets pretty hot in the kitchen when my Gf cooks. Its sexy as hell!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

southbound said:


> I thought women wanted stability and a drama free life.


 Maybe the more difficult a young woman's life... the more likely she may seek "stability"/security in a partner.... I would say this about myself... I longed for a man who I trusted with my whole heart..that how he treated me showed this.. actions speak louder than words.... Faithfulness was very very important to me.. I wanted him to be "crazy for me".. if he wasn't .. I wouldn't have trusted anything to last...

I didn't go off to college, I was independent in some ways (had a job, my own car)... but I wanted to MESH with someone.. I had no desire to be single, partying it up, traveling the world or trying out different men- for fun...



BluesPower said:


> Unless you catch most women at that stage of life, where they are ready to marry, and have kids right this second, the do not want a "Nice Guy".


 and this was me when I was young.. I wanted a family at a younger age, hoped to find a man who wanted to share in that dream.. we had our 1st son a year after we married.... and had 5 more down the road...



> And may of those that marry "nice guys" cheat on them because the NG is not sexually experienced enough or sexually powerful enough to keep a woman sexually interested in them.


 I was my husbands 1st and only... this appealed to me more so when we met... I am just not normal in any way.. am I [email protected]#... I've always found this very very special, that it's just been the 2 of us..... It's not something I could just trample on & throw away...

Now IF he didn't treat me right, emotional needs thrown to the wind, pushed me away sexually... didn't like sex... I'd not be a happy camper.... very very frustrated ..we'd be having some ongoing conflict !! After all I am a bit of a sex fanatic myself ..... I can understand why couples break up, leave each other ... we all want to be fulfilled / feeling in love, sexually fulfilled is part of this..


----------



## SimplyAmorous

@southbound ... here is an example of the typical MODERN WOMAN's way of thinking ... or progressively going down this path...

Most Women Don’t Care About Marriage And Kids Anymore—We Have More Important Stuff To Do 

Reading this article makes me want to barf... I would have a rebuff for every point she made.. I belong in another century I guess... 

This point was overkill...



> 2. WE JUST DON’T NEED MEN ANYMORE.
> Marriage used to be a way to offer people security, like financial comfort. But um, it’s 2017 in case people haven’t noticed! We make our own money and we can give ourselves security, whether financial or emotional. We don’t really need partners for that. Actually, we don’t need them for anything.


 hmmm not even for sex... you'd think she'd at least mention


----------



## Laurentium

personofinterest said:


> Then there is this "nice guy" phenomenon where the guy is anything BUT nice. It's a game of politeness that he assumes entitles him to sex with a 10. This man will never find love because he doesn't actually know how to love. And no really good woman will say "yes" because we can spot his unabomber vibe a mile away lol


Indeed. That's my one beef with Dr R Glover, author of "No more mr nice guy". I like pretty much everything the book says. It describes the above "type" very clearly. But let's not call it "nice". It is, as you say, anything but nice. I wish Glover had titled the book something else.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

SimplyAmorous said:


> @southbound ... here is an example of the typical MODERN WOMAN's way of thinking ... or progressively going down this path...
> 
> Most Women Don’t Care About Marriage And Kids Anymore—We Have More Important Stuff To Do
> 
> Reading this article makes me want to barf... I would have a rebuff for every point she made.. I belong in another century I guess... <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" ></a>
> 
> This point was overkill...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. WE JUST DON’T NEED MEN ANYMORE.
> Marriage used to be a way to offer people security, like financial comfort. But um, it’s 2017 in case people haven’t noticed! We make our own money and we can give ourselves security, whether financial or emotional. We don’t really need partners for that. Actually, we don’t need them for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> hmmm not even for sex... you'd think she'd at least mention
Click to expand...

Maybe she has an ulterior motive of extinction of the human race?


----------



## harperlee

BluesPower said:


> I can attest to this one for sure. My GF knows about my past, no numbers, and she worries sometimes.
> 
> What she does not really understand it that she IS THE ONE. I don't need to have sex with other woman, I found the best of the best. Yes of course the sex is astounding, even though she was inexperienced.
> 
> I tell he when she worries that there is not another woman in the world that could make me mess this thing we have up. I have sampled what's out there, I really have no need to sample any more.
> 
> I still get hit on, and exs are constantly sniffing around, and I just turn my nose up, I am not interested...


Blues, best for finding the woman for yourself. A word of caution...you have opened Pandora's competitive box. A woman who 'loves' you in fear of losing you is not a woman in love.

Don't let the little head rule.


----------



## naiveonedave

harperlee said:


> Blues, best for finding the woman for yourself. A word of caution...you have opened Pandora's competitive box. A woman who 'loves' you in fear of losing you is not a woman in love.
> 
> Don't let the little head rule.


I think you need to have a little fear of losing your mate, keeps you on your toes and won't let you get complacent.


----------



## personofinterest

​


naiveonedave said:


> I think you need to have a little fear of losing your mate, keeps you on your toes and won't let you get complacent.


I dunno, the fact that I KNOW my husband is absolutely committed motivates me to give and love even more. I feel safe to give 100%


----------



## Hexagon

I don't know how interchangable this is but I can tell you why I married a "bad girl".
Before I comitted to her, I was single for about 8 years. I dated a LOT and couldn't settle for various reasons:
She likes Dave Matthews...gone.
Too career focused....nope.
She called the Death Star a "globe thingie"....gone
Pointy elbows.....see ya.
This wen't on for years.

Until I met her. Great sense of humor, no children, dirty minded,lots of tattoos, pretty, etc.
She told me everything I wanted to hear like, wanting a family.
What I didn't know was that I was and had been lonely for some time. 
I also had no idea of what a narcissist was. This woman that seemed perfect had transformed who she really was into what I liked.
Then after we were married, she slowly transformed back into the real her. So slowly that I didn't see it happening. 

All of those years of me rejecting the right woman stings now.
Its almost as if I were greedy. "Just a little more" I would think.

Now...my tastes have changed drastically....obviously. Women are beautiful creatures but I think I'm tapping out. My picker isn't fixed and will probably never be. 
Now I think I'd rather have a Shelby GT350


----------



## naiveonedave

personofinterest said:


> ​
> I dunno, the fact that I KNOW my husband is absolutely committed motivates me to give and love even more. I feel safe to give 100%


If you read enough here, imo, you can never truly "know".


----------



## BluesPower

harperlee said:


> Blues, best for finding the woman for yourself. A word of caution...you have opened Pandora's competitive box. A woman who 'loves' you in fear of losing you is not a woman in love.
> 
> Don't let the little head rule.


Not really a problem for me. If she flakes out another will be there. 

I will say that so far, and believe me I would know, she is not crazy and has shown no signs of it at all. Unless something changes dramatically, I plan on keeping her from now on.


----------



## minimalME

Hexagon said:


> She called the Death Star a "globe thingie"....gone


Totally reasonable! 



> Its almost as if I were *greedy*. "Just a little more" I would think.


And this is exactly my problem with modern dating. People are greedy - and discontent. It's like gambling, and the perfect one is always right around the corner. Never the one you're with.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

naiveonedave said:


> If you read enough here, imo, you can never truly "know".


Quote:
Originally Posted by personofinterest:
I dunno, the fact that I KNOW my husband is absolutely committed motivates me to give and love even more. I feel safe to give 100%

I'm going with personofinterest here. The facts that W and I are 100% committed is a turn on and with the right person the giving and sharing freedom is cause to love more.

PS I'm not a softie so that's the end of my comments on the committed thing.


----------



## naiveonedave

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by personofinterest:
> I dunno, the fact that I KNOW my husband is absolutely committed motivates me to give and love even more. I feel safe to give 100%
> 
> I'm going with personofinterest here. The facts that W and I are 100% committed is a turn on and with the right person the giving and sharing freedom is cause to love more.
> 
> PS I'm not a softie so that's the end of my comments on the committed thing.


I think you need to be committed and a bit unsafe. That prevents you from taking your spouse for granted. I don't think you can get away with not having both. The unsafe bit is the knowledge that your SO can leave/cheat/whatever, so keeping your game up is the best you that you can be....


----------



## harperlee

BluesPower said:


> *Not really a problem for me. If she flakes out another will be there. *
> 
> I will say that so far, and believe me I would know, she is not crazy and has shown no signs of it at all. Unless something changes dramatically, I plan on keeping her from now on.


Wasn't that my point, lol. 

Best.


----------



## samyeagar

naiveonedave said:


> I think you need to be committed and a bit unsafe. That prevents you from taking your spouse for granted. I don't think you can get away with not having both. The unsafe bit is the knowledge that your SO can leave/cheat/whatever, so keeping your game up is the best you that you can be....


This is interesting. My wife knows I am committed, and she feels 100% safe at the same time. I get what people are saying about being unsafe as in my wife knowing I have options, but very early on in our relationship, I laid out my boundaries and what were automatic deal breakers for me. I think the unsafe part of me by that definition would actually be the exact same thing that is the most safe part in that my wife has observed me in numerous situations, and my behaviour has been 100% consistent with my boundaries.


----------



## naiveonedave

samyeagar said:


> This is interesting. My wife knows I am committed, and she feels 100% safe at the same time. I get what people are saying about being unsafe as in my wife knowing I have options, but very early on in our relationship, I laid out my boundaries and what were automatic deal breakers for me. I think the unsafe part of me by that definition would actually be the exact same thing that is the most safe part in that my wife has observed me in numerous situations, and my behaviour has been 100% consistent with my boundaries.


boundaries are part of how you deal with the small bit of unsafeness.....


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

naiveonedave said:


> I think you need to be committed and a bit unsafe. That prevents you from taking your spouse for granted. I don't think you can get away with not having both. The unsafe bit is the knowledge that your SO can leave/cheat/whatever, so keeping your game up is the best you that you can be....


Note I never said to surrender all your common sense.

😊 and as a rule don't take your SO for granted and vice-versa. That can happen. Just reasonably try to be aware and let SO know time to time that all is appreciated.


----------



## personofinterest

naiveonedave said:


> If you read enough here, imo, you can never truly "know".


Insofar as I am able to know, I know. If it turns out I was wrong, then I will deal with that by leaving or reconciling and move on one way of another.

I have been deeply hurt before. I learned some things, survived, and chose better the next time around. God bless the broken road, as they say.

We can live in pessimism or optimism. I prefer the latter.


----------



## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> This is interesting. My wife knows I am committed, and she feels 100% safe at the same time. I get what people are saying about being unsafe as in my wife knowing I have options, but very early on in our relationship, I laid out my boundaries and what were automatic deal breakers for me. I think the unsafe part of me by that definition would actually be the exact same thing that is the most safe part in that my wife has observed me in numerous situations, and my behaviour has been 100% consistent with my boundaries.


Exactly. I think this idea of "keeping my partner on her toes so she knows I can always find someone better" to be some emotionally stunted PUA tactic gone awry, and it has no place in a mature relationship.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

personofinterest said:


> Exactly. I think this idea of "keeping my partner on her toes so she knows I can always find someone better" to be some emotionally stunted PUA tactic gone awry, and it has no place in a mature relationship.


agreed.


----------



## Diana7

personofinterest said:


> ​
> I dunno, the fact that I KNOW my husband is absolutely committed motivates me to give and love even more. I feel safe to give 100%


I feel exactly the same with my husband. :smile2:


----------



## BluesPower

personofinterest said:


> Exactly. I think this idea of "keeping my partner on her toes so she knows I can always find someone better" to be some emotionally stunted PUA tactic gone awry, and it has no place in a mature relationship.


Yeah, I get what you are saying. But.... while it is not something I would ever say, out right, she knows not to take me for granted, and she does not. But it is also not a secret that I have zero trouble with women, except for a habit of finding crazy ones. 

My girl, knows that she has a catch, and I know what I have as well. I work to make her feel cherished and special and beautiful every day. 

Unlike a lot of guys, I don't make her feel that way because I want sex, which is a given in our relationship. I work to make her feel that way because she is that way. I want her to know how special she is. 

If I ever thought she was taking me for granted, we would talk, and if it did not change, it would be over. 

Things for me are really cut and dry these days. It kind of works for me...


----------



## personofinterest

What you describe, BluePower, is what two self-aware people who want to nurture their relationship do. I have a GEM in my husband; I am not about to take him for granted because he deserves my best. He (for whatever reason lol) feels the same about me. Knowing what you have and taking care of it is different from the little game that has an undercurrent of threat. I don't really sense the undercurrent of threat in what you said.

It's pretty easy to spot the difference. One is simply the reality of knowing who you are (you). The other is borne of insecurity and apparently some leftover bitterness?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> The facts that W and I are 100% committed is a turn on and with the right person the giving and sharing freedom is cause to love more.


Good stuff right here!


----------



## southbound

I’ve written this before, but all this confirms my belief that relationships are way more complicated and more work than I care to be involved in at this stage of my life. After tasting the freedom of being single, the allure is just not there for me.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

southbound said:


> I’ve written this before, but all this confirms my belief that relationships are way more complicated and more work than I care to be involved in at this stage of my life. After tasting the freedom of being single, the allure is just not there for me.


I understand but I find the rewards of that work so rewarding. Of course, the quality of the relationship can move that needle quickly either way.


----------



## southbound

PigglyWiggly said:


> southbound said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve written this before, but all this confirms my belief that relationships are way more complicated and more work than I care to be involved in at this stage of my life. After tasting the freedom of being single, the allure is just not there for me.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand but I find the rewards of that work so rewarding. Of course, the quality of the relationship can move that needle quickly either way.
Click to expand...

I understand. I’m probably the oddball if truth be told, but I just can’t put into words how I cherish being a hundred percent in control of my life and the peace. I can spend my money like I want, vacuum every day or never vacuum, whichever I choose. My brain never has to try to figure out if what I’m doing is attractive to anyone or if my mind reading skills are up to par. It’s true bliss. 

I’ve been so stress free so long, I’d probably lose my mind the first time we had a difference of opinion over a restaurant; I’m just not accustomed to it.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

southbound said:


> I understand. I’m probably the oddball if truth be told, but I just can’t put into words how I cherish being a hundred percent in control of my life and the peace. I can spend my money like I want, vacuum every day or never vacuum, whichever I choose. My brain never has to try to figure out if what I’m doing is attractive to anyone or if my mind reading skills are up to par. It’s true bliss.
> 
> I’ve been so stress free so long, I’d probably lose my mind the first time we had a difference of opinion over a restaurant; I’m just not accustomed to it.


I understand your perspective. Marriage is all about compromise and if you've been through a bad marriage, compromise is often nowhere to be found. Enjoy your singlehood!


----------



## Diana7

southbound said:


> I understand. I’m probably the oddball if truth be told, but I just can’t put into words how I cherish being a hundred percent in control of my life and the peace. I can spend my money like I want, vacuum every day or never vacuum, whichever I choose. My brain never has to try to figure out if what I’m doing is attractive to anyone or if my mind reading skills are up to par. It’s true bliss.
> 
> I’ve been so stress free so long, I’d probably lose my mind the first time we had a difference of opinion over a restaurant; I’m just not accustomed to it.


I am married to a very easy going, laid back, patient and easy to please husband. I have freedom with him. I am completely relaxed with him and can be myself totally.
There is nothing that I cant do being married except date other men, and I have no desire at all to do that anyway.


----------



## Wolf1974

southbound said:


> I understand. I’m probably the oddball if truth be told, but I just can’t put into words how I cherish being a hundred percent in control of my life and the peace. I can spend my money like I want, vacuum every day or never vacuum, whichever I choose. My brain never has to try to figure out if what I’m doing is attractive to anyone or if my mind reading skills are up to par. It’s true bliss.
> 
> I’ve been so stress free so long, I’d probably lose my mind the first time we had a difference of opinion over a restaurant; I’m just not accustomed to it.


Actually I relate. I gave so much control to my x wife that our life was really her life and I was an add on to it. Once divorced I found my own life and got a taste of control to have my own money, my own car, make my own decisions. I’m not ok with giving that up again for anyone.


----------



## personofinterest

southbound said:


> I’ve written this before, but all this confirms my belief that relationships are way more complicated and more work than I care to be involved in at this stage of my life. After tasting the freedom of being single, the allure is just not there for me.


They really aren't. MGTOW people just need to make them seem that way to exercise their cynicism. Same with those mysandrist fish/bicycle women.

Don't let the outliers who chose their misery define relationships.


----------



## Steve2.0

"Nice guys finish last" There is a reason for that saying

Nice guys are boring, no excitement, no desire... no wetness generated in the nether regions.

Nice guys are good for family rearing though and bringing home a paycheque.


----------



## BluesPower

Steve2.0 said:


> "Nice guys finish last" There is a reason for that saying
> 
> Nice guys are boring, no excitement, no desire... no wetness generated in the nether regions.
> 
> Nice guys are good for family rearing though and bringing home a paycheque.


Truer words were never spoken (or written) IMHO...


----------



## personofinterest

Steve2.0 said:


> "Nice guys finish last" There is a reason for that saying
> 
> Nice guys are boring, no excitement, no desire... no wetness generated in the nether regions.
> 
> Nice guys are good for family rearing though and bringing home a paycheque.


I think a lot of people confuse nice with good, or nice with "nice because it should get me sex."

A truly good man, even if he is low key, will probably turn SOMEONE's crank.

A guy who is only nice because he wants to "get some" and who gets mad when it doesn't work....isn't actually nice.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Wolf1974 said:


> Actually I relate. I gave so much control to my x wife that our life was really her life and I was an add on to it. Once divorced I found my own life and got a taste of control to have my own money, my own car, make my own decisions. I’m not ok with giving that up again for anyone.




If you are giving up all of your freedoms, you’ve picked the wrong person. My picker is broken too so I’m staying single until I meet the right companion, even if it never happens again 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Wolf1974 said:


> Actually I relate. I gave so much control to my x wife that our life was really her life and I was an add on to it. Once divorced I found my own life and got a taste of control to have my own money, my own car, make my own decisions. I’m not ok with giving that up again for anyone.


But on the other hand.....not with disagreement to your way of life which is also ok, some men and women live exactly that way.....but for the sake of discussion...

It's also a normal that a man is married and has his own money, own car, makes own decisions. Man can be married and retain his individuality. W and I do. I've just bought cars and brought them home, this and that, money is mine and hers, and she has all our pass codes, etc. If I want to go fishing I go, hunting I go, we take trips together too. W doesn't hunt, that's ok. She will actually fish with me time to time. She'll never load the boat, get bait or prep, but likes to fish here and there. 

I go or not go with her to our (grown) childrens's non-critical events, my choice, she goes with me for some my work events, or not, her choice. 

We've been married over 30 yrs, it works. And works for others. We were both independent when we married and still are. I'm her biggest fan, she is mine.

But believe the forum advice.....it's very possible to date and remain your own person. Are there other reasons you're not dating?


----------



## Wolf1974

Elizabeth001 said:


> If you are giving up all of your freedoms, you’ve picked the wrong person. My picker is broken too so I’m staying single until I meet the right companion, even if it never happens again
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To some degree yes however marriage is about compromise. And I no longer want to do that after years and years of always having to.


----------



## Wolf1974

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> But on the other hand.....not with disagreement to your way of life which is also ok, some men and women live exactly that way.....but for the sake of discussion...
> 
> It's also a normal that a man is married and has his own money, own car, makes own decisions. Man can be married and retain his individuality. W and I do. I've just bought cars and brought them home, this and that, money is mine and hers, and she has all our pass codes, etc. If I want to go fishing I go, hunting I go, we take trips together too. W doesn't hunt, that's ok. She will actually fish with me time to time. She'll never load the boat, get bait or prep, but likes to fish here and there.
> 
> I go or not go with her to our (grown) childrens's non-critical events, my choice, she goes with me for some my work events, or not, her choice.
> 
> We've been married over 30 yrs, it works. And works for others. We were both independent when we married and still are. I'm her biggest fan, she is mine.
> 
> But believe the forum advice.....it's very possible to date and remain your own person. Are there other reasons you're not dating?


Then I would say your experience with marriage and mine as well as what my friends experienced were very different. It works for you it didn’t for us.

And I have been with the same woman dating for 5 years. That relationship is much more like you describe where I am my own person and do my own thing and we are together or apart depending on what is happening.


----------



## MovingForward

sokillme said:


> That would feel like a kind of an insult to me. I want to be both.


I said this same thing to my girlfriend recently, she mentioned a lot of girls(including herself in the past) have different types for different purposes, her past have been a few serious relationships with highly intelligent IT people who were introverted and generally out of shape(my observation from pics) to less serious relationships or basically few month hook ups with either stereotypical douche bags usually with a ton of money or large muscular tattoo'd guys fitting the stereotypical bad boy role.

I told her I want to be the guy she wants to ****, the fun guy she wants to hang around with and the guy she can settle down with, if i am not all I wont be any.


----------



## Personal

Wolf1974 said:


> Actually I relate. I gave so much control to my x wife that our life was really her life and I was an add on to it. Once divorced I found my own life and got a taste of control to have my own money, my own car, make my own decisions. I’m not ok with giving that up again for anyone.


While I can't relate since I've always been able to do as I please. And have never felt a need to compromise or surrender myself to another persons will in any sexual relationship including both of my marriages.

If I want to go out, or do something, or buy something and so on etc I do that as I please without feeling I need permission. My wife also does as she chooses, all without requiring my permission as well.

That said I have had some women try to tell me what I can and can't do. Yet with all of them simply telling them that "I will always do as I please" and not yielding has always seen an end to such nonsense.

I've always thought great sexual relationships are the ones where all parties are free to be themselves. If one feels they need to compromise themselves in order to get on in a sexual relationship, they're likely to be in the wrong relationship.


----------



## southbound

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> But on the other hand.....not with disagreement to your way of life which is also ok, some men and women live exactly that way.....but for the sake of discussion...
> 
> It's also a normal that a man is married and has his own money, own car, makes own decisions. Man can be married and retain his individuality. W and I do. I've just bought cars and brought them home, this and that, money is mine and hers, and she has all our pass codes, etc. If I want to go fishing I go, hunting I go, we take trips together too. W doesn't hunt, that's ok. She will actually fish with me time to time. She'll never load the boat, get bait or prep, but likes to fish here and there.
> 
> I go or not go with her to our (grown) childrens's non-critical events, my choice, she goes with me for some my work events, or not, her choice.
> 
> We've been married over 30 yrs, it works. And works for others. We were both independent when we married and still are. I'm her biggest fan, she is mine.
> 
> But believe the forum advice.....it's very possible to date and remain your own person. Are there other reasons you're not dating?


That sounds great, and that is the type of relationship a lot of people want, but it certainly doesn't happen with all relationships. For me, it isn't always the big things that are going wrong that come to mind first, it's all the little things that people just look at as normal in a relationship such as different spending habits, moodiness, wanting to go while the other would rather stay in the recliner. If you have a marriage where you do as you please, that is no problem, but if not, all those little things become annoying. A lot of people say a good marriage takes "work." I don't want another job. I don't want to roll out of bed every morning and feel like I have to "work" to maintain a good relationship. 

I think it just boils down to people being different. Some people are attracted to being with someone, which is normal, and all the things that would drive me crazy are nothing to them. Then there are people who like the freedom to do whatever they want whenever they want, and they don't feel the least bit lonely because they are not married.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Laurentium said:


> Indeed. That's my one beef with Dr R Glover, author of "No more mr nice guy". I like pretty much everything the book says. It describes the above "type" very clearly. But let's not call it "nice". It is, as you say, anything but nice. *I wish Glover had titled the book something else.*


I think like this also... it's given the word "NICE" which could also be "kind, gentle, a good person... a bad rap... Using my husband again as an example...he would NEVER fit the "profile" of being NICE just to get sex or feeling I OWED him something for giving up his time or spending time with me.... then getting all pizzy about it behind the scenes, if he didn't get his way (like he was being a total fake)..

It throws men like THAT.. but also men similar to my husband... genuinely caring/ giving, more on the sensitive side (I don't mean "overly" when I use this term), who has Right Intentions towards a woman, the through and through "Gentleman type" - lumping them together.... I am sure this would be called BETA behavior also .... in TODAY'S SOCIETY... 

It bothers me a great deal how so much has turned completely upside down...
This seems to be the typical experience today ...










I long for yesterday's values more so...not every line in this.. but most of it...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

naiveonedave said:


> I think you need to have a little fear of losing your mate, keeps you on your toes and won't let you get complacent.


 How does one keep that little bit of "fear" alive... is there tips for this.. toned down tips from the "Pick Up Artist community"... like a game of sorts...a little flirting with the opposite sex perhaps...or speaking how a co-worker is coming on to us, just to remind our spouse we have options?

I tend to feel anything like this should be from an outside source...like my GF's speaking how they wished they had their own "_____" (insert H's name)... 

I asked my Husband his thoughts on this...as he was never one to even hint at feeling like this... which he did reject, never feeling it was necessary ..... he's always been 100% devoted.. that security was there for me.... I can not express HOW MUCH that means to me, and what that does for me in regards to how I see him, the trust flowing from it... it's like the post below by @personofinterest - which I deeply resonated with... 

It's something along these lines... I've always felt he's proud to have me on his arm...this endears me to him... he may not be God's gift to women...but he's God's gift to me... I am expressive.. He has always ticked the boxes of things I wanted in a man/ husband -in how he loves/ treats me...shame on me if I would EVER take this for granted.. sure I have had moments where I may have.. but it's never been something I would turn from...am I crazy!?? When I appreciate something ... I speak it...I lavish it even.. to pump him up... why not.. he deserves it.... our Men want to feel respected/ appreciated...

Your post here -gave me another reason to say "Hey honey... thanks for being You.. and not doing this"...trying in instill some sort of fear in me.. that is...

I'd describe it as more "practical" for us...what holds the passion is related to keeping our "Love tanks" full - those emotional needs (@ sexual), this is what is needed, not to put a "fear" into the other...... he is giving.. makes me WANT TO GIVE BACK...this binds me to him, allows the deepest of vulnerability also... it's a beautiful feedback loop... and of course.. don't let yourself go... both of us care to be physically attractive to the other...



personofinterest said:


> ​
> I dunno, the fact that I KNOW my husband is absolutely committed motivates me to give and love even more. I feel safe to give 100%


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

personofinterest said:


> samyeagar said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting. My wife knows I am committed, and she feels 100% safe at the same time. I get what people are saying about being unsafe as in my wife knowing I have options, but very early on in our relationship, I laid out my boundaries and what were automatic deal breakers for me. I think the unsafe part of me by that definition would actually be the exact same thing that is the most safe part in that my wife has observed me in numerous situations, and my behaviour has been 100% consistent with my boundaries.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I think this idea of "keeping my partner on her toes so she knows I can always find someone better" to be some emotionally stunted PUA tactic gone awry, and it has no place in a mature relationship.
Click to expand...

It's called 'competition anxiety'. It's more common in casual dating than LTRs, though it can be useful in LTRs. The thought is that women value men more when they have options. Even if he would never act on those options. It can also be useful for guys that find themselves in sexless marriages.


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## southbound

As in SA's post, dating in the 21st century is just ridiculous. I thinks it's not really for people who are introverts and like a calm life. One has to like a little drama in their lives and like puzzles. If one is a logical person and likes everything to make sense, it will drive you insane.

On the other hand, from the way SA has described things, I believe if more women were like her, it would make things a lot more natural and easier.


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## BluesPower

southbound said:


> As in SA's post, dating in the 21st century is just ridiculous. I thinks it's not really for people who are introverts and like a calm life. One has to like a little drama in their lives and like puzzles. If one is a logical person and likes everything to make sense, it will drive you insane.
> 
> On the other hand, from the way SA has described things, I believe if more women were like her, it would make things a lot more natural and easier.


Yes it is probably insane these days. But on the other hand, you get that drama that you allow. 

Here is an example in my sort of recent dating, last couple of years. There was a girl that I met at my favorite bar, and I have some advantage on my home turf, because I play there often. But she did not know that because I was just there listening to one of my friends play. 

So I got her number, we hit it off and I called her the next day. Long story short we could not hook up so I blew her off. Either she is too busy, or not interested in me, which is cool because I had man my 2 calls and it did not work out. Either way, I am cool. 

Any how, I saw her several, several time later when I was with different women. Well, she must have at some later date asked around about me, so she go interested again. 

And every time she saw me after whatever time period she really went out of her way to hug me and try to talk with me. Now I was polite, and she wanted to get with me but sorry, I have a 2 call rule. 

Anyway, I was already 2 girls past her and on to current GF, so it really did not matter. 

But the point is, NO drama, because I don't deal with it. She was I guess kind of sorry that she did not exercise her option at the time, but that is not my issue.


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## PigglyWiggly

what is your 2 call rule?


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## BluesPower

PigglyWiggly said:


> what is your 2 call rule?


Well, when dating, I call a girl once, if we don't connect I'll call one more time. 

Also, if we don't work out a time to go out, logistics, I will try one more time. 

Basically, if a woman wants to be with you she will make it happen if you reach out, so I did not waste my time. 

The girl in the story did not make the initial effort which she regretted but that is how it goes.


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## PigglyWiggly

thanks for the info


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## southbound

BluesPower said:


> PigglyWiggly said:
> 
> 
> 
> what is your 2 call rule?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, when dating, I call a girl once, if we don't connect I'll call one more time.
> 
> Also, if we don't work out a time to go out, logistics, I will try one more time.
> 
> Basically, if a woman wants to be with you she will make it happen if you reach out, so I did not waste my time.
> 
> The girl in the story did not make the initial effort which she regretted but that is how it goes.
Click to expand...

I’ll go with that. I don’t pursue women very far. As for no drama, I’ll agree that you only get what you allow, but I have yet to find anyone where there isn’t some kind of game or weirdness involved. Of course, that bay be a matter of opinion. It may just be what most consider normal, but for me, it’s drama.


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## BluesPower

southbound said:


> I’ll go with that. I don’t pursue women very far. As for no drama, I’ll agree that you only get what you allow, but I have yet to find anyone where there isn’t some kind of game or weirdness involved. Of course, that bay be a matter of opinion. It may just be what most consider normal, but for me, it’s drama.


No actually, drama is drama, and frankly, anyone male of female that puts up with it should not IMHO. 

I had a girl that I really cared about, for example, that had some issues. Now I did love her so I gave that one a warning that basically said: "here is the deal, this is what you are doing, this appears to be the issue as far as I can see, either it stops or that is it." 

Well, "it" did not stop and that was it. I am actually glad because she completely lost her after that, complete with stalking and other strange behavior. So my gut in this case was correct. 

It is like the women that you brought up in this thread. You can't understand why they go with the abusive bad boys. While most of that has been explained, the main reason for a lot of it, it that they have issues that you cannot see. 

When I was dating, a lot of women were attracted to my bad boy side, and frankly a lot of those did not last... why... because they had issues.


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## Elizabeth001

Everyone has some sort of baggage. I suppose it’s how they manage it that matters, but expecting to find someone with none is a fruitless search. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dadstartingover

Elizabeth001 said:


> Everyone has some sort of baggage. I suppose it’s how they manage it that matters, but expecting to find someone with none is a fruitless search.


Bingo. So few people really know how to cope, though. 

Everything goes along swimmingly in the early days of the mating game. Lots of intimacy. Positive feelings are through the roof. You just see each other every now and then. Little anxiety keeps both on their toes and looking great.

Then comfort sets in. There goes libido. Then life hits you with bills, kids, work, stress stress stress.... aaaand here comes the baggage. Next thing you know your wife is ringing up 30k of credit card debt and banging every man within 10 miles of your house. "This isn't my wife!" No... but this is your very broken wife and how she reacts in the "real world".

http://dadstartingover.com/2017/06/29/baggage/


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## Wolf1974

Elizabeth001 said:


> Everyone has some sort of baggage. I suppose it’s how they manage it that matters, but expecting to find someone with none is a fruitless search.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is true. I always say I know I have baggage, I just like to think it all fits on one cart lol


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## minimalME

southbound said:


> As in SA's post, dating in the 21st century is just ridiculous. I thinks it's not really for people who are introverts and like a calm life. One has to like a little drama in their lives and like puzzles. If one is a logical person and likes everything to make sense, it will drive you insane.
> 
> On the other hand, from the way SA has described things, I believe if more women were like her, it would make things a lot more natural and easier.


I agree with a lot of what you've said here. I just couldn't do dating anymore, and I am an introvert, and I do like a peaceful life.

In terms of drama - I've come to hate that word. 

Conflict is normal, and depending on the situation, healthy. I understand that some people have more than others, but when I hear 'drama', I think to myself that people must want a fantasy relationship where no conflict exists. 

It would be helpful if people would be more precise about what it is they don't want.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

BluesPower said:


> Well, when dating, I call a girl once, if we don't connect I'll call one more time.
> 
> Also, if we don't work out a time to go out, logistics, I will try one more time.
> 
> Basically, if a woman wants to be with you she will make it happen if you reach out, so I did not waste my time.
> 
> The girl in the story did not make the initial effort which she regretted but that is how it goes.


Ha! Younger me continues to be vindicated. I did exactly that in my single days, and more along those lines.
I called it hey I'm just being respectful, and went on the next date with another.


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## southbound

Elizabeth001 said:


> Everyone has some sort of baggage. I suppose it’s how they manage it that matters, but expecting to find someone with none is a fruitless search.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I guess it depends on how one defines baggage, but if it means issues that one brings to a relationship, whether it be mental or physical, I have to say that my baggage is probably the lowest if anyone I know. I can’t think of anything that I would be nervous about telling a new person in mylife. I have no debt issues, no crazy family members that cause trouble, no crazy relationship with the ex, no children issues, I’m not on the go all the time, and the list goes on. If a woman was with me, she would be fairly stress free. I’d just like to find someone like that, but it seems impossible.


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