# Craving Non-sexual Physical Attention



## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

Early twenties, married almost 4 years. She has issues with intimacy and romance - rarely looks me in the eyes, doesn't like to cuddle for long at all.

I have a serious need for physical attention. I mean seriously. Purely non-sexual (surprisingly our sex life is great) but it's never been something she's been able to give me.

First off I feel absolutely freaking awful for wanting something she can't provide.

Secondly we've spoken about it lots, how touchy-feely I was at the beginning of our relationship (it's been much better controlled since), how much I crave it now.

Usually whenever I wasn't feeling great or just felt like it I'd go to touch her or hug and cuddle her anything like that. She's reject me lots so I'd ignore it mostly by excessive gaming. Long story short I don't want to spend the rest of my life like that, ignoring what's actually going on.

The past 8 months now she's found a volunteering job (still relying on me financially, which is fine and I'm happy to do it) and made a new friend of her own (which is great, she's out of the house more and stuff). Basically she's becoming more independent and less held back by her MH issues (PTSD, BPD).

My shifts have changed in the last few months and work has gotten a lot harder for me. I don't have any real friends left at all (as shown by my abysmal birthday do where 1 person showed up) and I'm incredibly lonely.

She can be right there across the room but then she'll reject me and I'll block it out but I still feel so lonely.

I've always been a touchy-feely person. I love hugs and cuddling and literally anything like that, being warm and cosy with a duvet on the couch and just the feeling of closeness to another person.

I've spoken to her about it a lot, we've agreed that I'm allowed a "cuddle friend" (tried it once with someone I met at a party, was great they had a nice time but I think they were too weirded out by it). I know my wife is trying her best to be there for me too but it's just not enough.

I'm in a position now where I could possibly go on holiday overseas meet up with someone I speak to online and literally just cuddle and talk the whole time. I know most guys want to be unfaithful for sexual desire but that's not what I want at all. I want to be faithful for her, I would do anything for her outright. The only problem is how I've been managing it so far isn't good for me, only trying to pry open my emotions has shown me that.

Recently started talking to someone new and looked like we were becoming really good friends. We spoke lots and everything was great. We even mentioned meeting up sometime and then it got a bit more intense with descriptions of cuddling and massages. I got a bit uncomfortable when they started mentioning kissing a few times and made that clear (I'd done my best to make myself clear from the beginning). This upset them terribly and now I feel absolutely awful. 

I feel like I've been dumped again, like I've been winded and all of my chest cavity hollowed out and I can't deny the fact that I've finally slid into full blown depression again.

TL;DR:

Is it wrong to want to meet people for the express purpose of platonic intimacy and friendship?

Why do I feel so genuinely distraught over the idea of hurting a potential new good friend in a way that only a scorned lover should?

I love my wife. I know I do but do I/should I love someone else as well?


Edit - found the last time I posted here......

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physical-mental-health-issues/48374-she-isnt-affectionate.html

I would have thought that we were never better.. but looking back on that I'm not so sure, only difference is how much I'm trying to do something other than gaming.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

I'm just guessing here...but I would say if you found a person as loving and cuddly as you describe yourself to be...chances are she will develop feelings for you of the romantic kind. If she is as loving a person as that, she will be prone to it. I would.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Any chance you're simply too needy for your wife and it pushes her away? Can you find a compromise, say a couple of designated evenings to cuddle, then she knows when she gets space and you know when you get to cuddle?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

I am far too needy for her (now especially) but what am I going to do? She has her own personal issues with intimacy too which doesn't help things. The only reason I'm so unhappy is because I'm trying to deal with things instead of spend my life pretending they don't exist. I don't ever want to give up on our marriage but she just can't be there for me in that way and I hate myself for it ><

We're trying to find compromises but it's hard, I don't want to pressure her into anything. Then on top of that my 24/7/365 shift work makes any kind of regularity hard.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Why do you hate yourself for her inability to be there? Did you do something to cause it?


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

No it's nothing like that. I just don't like the idea of needing something from others that I'm not getting from her =/


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If she has MH issues like BPD some things could be explained there... Why PTSD?


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

john117 said:


> If she has MH issues like BPD some things could be explained there... Why PTSD?



PTSD from traumatic events from her childhood thanks to her parents basically. They both have their own MH issues - mother has the mind of a child and has spent probably the past 10 years chasing a celebrity around the globe. Father has bipolar and has been out of work for a loong time. Neither of them are well whatsoever.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

She is probably never going to change, and in fact her issues will probably manifest more and more over time.

You have the right to your needs, so don't feel badly that you need physical touch. Sex is not the same as physical touch, so while you may (currently) have an acceptable sex life, it is not a substitute for holding hands walking in the mall or snuggling close while watching tv. If she is not able to meet your need for touch today, she never will in the future. And you should not feel it is your fault you have this need.

And it may not be her "fault" that she cannot meet that need, but it is a fact she is not capable of meeting it. You don't have to hate her for not being capable, but you should not then sacrifice your life and happiness because she is incapable.

I understand it isn't her fault, because she is the victim of some childhood trauma. My wife was sexually abused as a young child, so I am well aware of how your wife became the way she is, and how you feel compassion for her.

My advice is you either deeply accept that this need of yours is not that important, and thus you don't feel badly about it not getting met, or you leave the marriage. Again, you don't have to hate her for not being capable. Rather it is a situation where you two are incompatible even though you both care for each other.

Getting out now is vastly better than waiting 20 or 30 more years. It is much kinder to her for you to pull the plug now, if that is your choice.

As to meeting other people for your needs, don't do it!!! Whether it be cuddling, talking intimately, sex, etc, it is wrong to go outside your marriage for those needs. It means your marriage is broken. Either fix it or leave it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

At the risk of making a horrible analogy, Thor is right. My veterinarian told me one needs to get their pets (rodents) used to the idea of being held by people. This improves the bond between pet significantly and human and also allows for treatment in case they get sick (hand feeding). 

For years we had a pair of chinchillas when my kids were in elementary school. Chinchillas prefer being alone and also prefer not to be handled too much if at all. Yet we got them used at a young age to like each other and like us as well. If a chinchilla can comprehend that then a human should not be too hard, right?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

imarriedyoung said:


> She has issues with intimacy and romance - *rarely looks me in the eyes*, doesn't like to cuddle for long at all.


Young, when she is speaking to you, does she tend to look away from your eyes, e.g., at your shirt collar or chin? If so, this could be a sign of very mild autism (previously called "aspergers"). 

Moreover, when you say she has "BPD," are you referring to "Borderline Personality Disorder" (the most common meaning of that acronym)? I ask because you say nothing about her exhibiting a strong fear of abandonment or being emotionally unstable -- both of which are hallmarks of BPD.


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks for your input so far all of you, I really appreciate it.

And yes I mean Borderline Personality Disorder. I wouldn't say she has mild autism, just strong fears of abandoment and difficulty with intimacy. She usually does look me in the eyes if we're talking accross the room, just not for long up close I guess =/


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

imarriedyoung said:


> Thanks for your input so far all of you, I really appreciate it.
> 
> And yes I mean Borderline Personality Disorder. I wouldn't say she has mild autism, just strong fears of abandoment and difficulty with intimacy. She usually does look me in the eyes if we're talking accross the room, just not for long up close I guess =/


I have issues with looking my significant others in the eyes. Especially when making love. I don't know why.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

You should stop talking to these other girls online. Having outside interference in your relationship, EAs, are just going to make the negatives about your wife and relationship seem worse.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

imarriedyoung, I also have issues with neediness. It wears the other person in the relationship out. I think if we work on understanding this about ourselves and why we are so needy it would help. The people here give great advice and many resources to read that help tremendously. Go back and re-read all your posts and the responses. I do that daily to keep myself centered and on the right track. As well as looking into myself and the way I am and what I can do to improve myself and the things that are issues with me. A friend of mine who is a life coach told me it is important to be happy with yourself and who you are in regard to relationships. Then you won't be so needy. 

Working on it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Young, if you're interested, I describe some of my experiences with my BPDer exW at my posts in http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. My experience is that, as the years go by, the BPDer's fear of abandonment grows increasingly painful as she sees her body aging. Moreover, as you start establishing stronger personal boundaries to protect yourself, the BPDer will misinterpret those actions as a sure sign you're planning to leave her. 

On top of all that, she grows increasingly resentful each year of your failure to make her happy (an impossible task). The result is that BPDer relationships typically end for good after about 12 to 15 years if the BPD traits are strong. Of course, the excessive caregivers like us don't abandon them. What happens, instead, is that the BPDers are so resentful (of our "failures") and fearful of abandonment that they walk out on us.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Right now you're in a constant cycle of you being needy and her pushing you away. It's like a sex starved spouse where they're so sex starved that everything becomes about getting sex and the other partner becomes paranoid because everything is about sex. If you schedule sex it takes pressure off because spouse one knows when they're getting it and spouse two can know that not everything is about sex. 

Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday you get cuddle time and the other days she gets space, so everyone knows what to expect. Just an example.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just do both of you a favor and get a divorce. This will not end well if you try to stay together and get some on the side.

And please help her get to a therapist.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Right now you're in a constant cycle of you being needy and her pushing you away.


LITS, if Young's W is a BPDer as he states, there is absolutely nothing he can do to break that push-away and pull-back cycle. Unless she decides to work hard for years in intensive therapy, Young will always be in a lose/lose situation -- no matter what he does. 

The problem is that a BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. This means he cannot back away from triggering one fear without drawing closer to triggering the other. Specifically, as he draws close to her to assure him of his love and devotion, he will unavoidably start triggering her fear of engulfment -- a scary feeling of being controlled and suffocated.

Yet, as he backs away to give her breathing space, he necessarily will start triggering her abandonment fear because she will misinterpret that backing-off as a sign he is wanting to leave her. Sadly, with BPDers, there is no safe midpoints position where a spouse can safely stand to avoid triggering both fears. I know because I wasted 15 years (and a small fortune on 6 psychologists and 3 MCs) hunting for that Goldilocks position that is "not too far" and "not too close" -- all to no avail.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Uptown said:


> LITS, if Young's W is a BPDer as he states, there is absolutely nothing he can do to break that push-away and pull-back cycle. Unless she decides to work hard for years in intensive therapy, Young will always be in a lose/lose situation -- no matter what he does.
> 
> The problem is that a BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. This means he cannot back away from triggering one fear without drawing closer to triggering the other. Specifically, as he draws close to her to assure him of his love and devotion, he will unavoidably start triggering her fear of engulfment -- a scary feeling of being controlled and suffocated.
> 
> Yet, as he backs away to give her breathing space, he necessarily will start triggering her abandonment fear because she will misinterpret that backing-off as a sign he is wanting to leave her. Sadly, with BPDers, there is no safe midpoints position where a spouse can safely stand to avoid triggering both fears. I know because I wasted 15 years (and a small fortune on 6 psychologists and 3 MCs) hunting for that Goldilocks position that is "not too far" and "not too close" -- all to no avail.


Has she been diagnosed by a qualified psychiatrist, or is the TAM community diagnosing based on the very limited story we're getting from OP's posts? There seems to be a lot of armchair psychiatrists here on TAM who can diagnose everything based on a one sided version of events. If she has been diagnosed by a psychiatrist then your points could be valid.


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

She has been diagnosed with PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder by a qualified psych yes.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Would your wife and you be amenable to cuddling back to back? You would get the sense of closeness and she would not feel engulfed by you.

Never heard of a cuddle buddy. Guess they are out there, though.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

imarriedyoung said:


> And yes I mean Borderline Personality Disorder.


A definite diagnosis of BPD is bad. Do your research. She'll never change significantly. If it were me, I'd get out right now. Especially with no kids involved.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

imarriedyoung said:


> She has been diagnosed with PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder by a qualified psych yes.


Ok, that wasn't clear from your posts. Or I just missed it.....

I will say that I have a very good friend who is a psychopharmacologist and he is also a well known expert on psych drugs. He holds several patents related to antidepressants as well.

He told me that borderline personality disorder is basically a junk diagnosis (his words) that is a last resort when something seems odd but the traits don't fit any other available diagnosis. The treatment is behavioral and depends on the symptoms, and success with treatment is typically low. That could be partly because most people don't really want expensive treatment, they want a drug, which is not appropriate for bpd. 

It could have been thrown in if she has PTSD and has trouble with intimacy, just for one example. Small behavior modification steps are cbt are the preferred treatment, by a qualified psychiatrist (not a counselor). And psychiatric diagnoses are somewhat subjective, so a different doctor might have a different diagnosis. 

It's difficult to handle for a very needy person, and a needy person is next to impossible for someone like this to handle. I forget if you addressed it but has she had any kind of behavioral treatment? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

She's had CBT before which definitely helped (and a bunch of not helpful counselling) but that's the limit of what she can get on my wage now. She has gotten a lot better in herself considering what she was like but after feeling the need to come back here and look at my old post... I'm really not sure if *we* have gotten any better at all. Just different =/


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

It's good she's a bit better, it could just be that given your differing needs you're not going to be compatible. Or it could just take a long time, but ultimately you'll to decide what you can live with. You're probably not going to get the level of intimacy you crave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Kind of a cold thing to do to leave someone who has a mental disorder and can't really help how she is. What made you fall in love with her and what do you still love about her?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

DayDream said:


> Kind of a cold thing to do to leave someone who has a mental disorder and can't really help how she is. What made you fall in love with her and what do you still love about her?


It isn't cold at all when considering that there are two decidedly different disorders with these two people. It's amazing that they even got together in the first place let alone lasted as long as they have.

It's also a strange statement for a person going through what you, yourself, are going through. It's obvious that your husband has a few mental problems and, yet, you're leaving him. Your pain is not greater than anyone else's.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> It isn't cold at all when considering that there are two decidedly different disorders with these two people. It's amazing that they even got together in the first place let alone lasted as long as they have.


OP sounds like he may be a Nice Guy. If so, there is no surprise he paired up with a BPD. They will get locked into a death spiral with those dysfunctions, and neither one of them will ever be happy in that marriage.

D is a favor to both of them if he is a Nice Guy and she is BPD.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

For those of us whose primary love language is physical touch, doing without is like having our oxygen cut off, like we are suffocating, or drowning. Its absolute misery. That is probably the biggest eason that I prefer to be in relationships, doing without affection is like a slow death. 

IMY, DO NOT go to another woman to get this need met. Your wife is a mess, and will never be able to meet your needs. However, bringing in a third party is still wrong, regardless of that fact. She will never meet this need for you, so you would be wise to end this and move on.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

I can relate to what you are saying. Before you do anything you should better understand yourself and what is driving your needs.

I highly recommend two books that will help you understand your need for physical touch. The first is Dr. Sue Johnson's Hold me Tight. The second is Chapmans 5 Languages of Love. Both books helped me understand that my need for touch was valid and not something sick. I would wager from your description that "Touch" is your primary language of love and probably at the bottom of your wife's languages of love. That is the way it is in my marriage. It took me a long time to learn that my touching my wife in a loving way meant little to her compared to providing her with "quality time" or "an act of service." 

Once I figured that out and started to give my wife unconditional love, things improved a great deal between us, but she still really doesn't provide me with the physical touch that I need to feel really loved. It is a sore point in our marriage of over 40 years.

While we are at it as a "lesson learned" from an old guy. I strongly recommend that you read Dr. Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy. In that book you will likely learn about some of the things you are doing that are pushing your wife away and how you need to "Get a Life" and become a more integrated and interesting man.

When you are happy with yourself and proud of who you are and your accomplishments your "need" for support from others (especially your wife) is less. That takes a lot of pressure off a partner.

A final thought as to touch, I discovered that when I was exercising like a madman in my Get A Life phase, I would end up really sore. I went to a legitimate theraputic massage place once a week to work out the sore muscles. It was a nice way to get some of the physical touch I needed and yet do it in a way that was consistent with my marriage. Even self massage helps. I once had a step-aerobics exercise class where at the end of the class, as part of the cool down and stretching the instructor had us hug ourself. 

Good luck. Been there done that.


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for your really helpful comments. I've been reading all of the links and have a nice "To Read" list coming along.




3Xnocharm said:


> For those of us whose primary love language is physical touch, doing without is like having our oxygen cut off, like we are suffocating, or drowning. Its absolute misery. That is probably the biggest eason that I prefer to be in relationships, doing without affection is like a slow death.


This, 100% this.

As an update I've still been trying to talk to her about it and address it but a couple of days ago we had an argument and she's gone to stay with her aunt for a few days.

The argument was about her wanting more "distance" in order to "evaluate" our relationship. I snapped and said how insulted I felt that our entire marriage can supposedly be "evaluated" in a few short weeks of increased "distance" and that the only way we could get more distance would be if she moved out (which, in hindsight, was a really dumb thing to say).

So far the only thing that's been different is that her toothbrush is gone.

She messaged me today saying that she felt she should say something but didn't know what to say, then asked how our pets were doing and finally said she was going to bed because she felt sick.

I feel so disconnected from her because if I don't then I'll either feel worthless or angry. I'm very good at being disconnected but part of me still worries how I'll feel when I see her again - most likely just as disconnected as I do now. The biggest issue is how obvious it seems that if I'm not there to hold up the relationship, to reassure her that she does love me and that this is what she really wants (as opposed to how unsure she is of herself usually, how often she changes hobbies etc, all part of her BPD) that she'll decide to leave either for me or her or both.

That sounds really manipulative but I've always done my best to be stable for her and keep her in as stable a situation as possible.

Frankly I'm scared that in the time it takes for her to get "better" (at least better enough) and me to become less needy but still have enough of my needs met that one or both of us would be forced to give up before then.

My love for her has never diminished, not even one bit. I am as infatuated with her as when it all started. We've been together (with one breakup much earlier on) for over 6 years now.


In addition I think I'm starting to haphazardly fall into an EA =/ The distance makes it impossible practically for now but I'd be lying if I said It's nice to talk to someone who gives a crap and won't instantly give up and run away the second you stop holding everything up. Usually I'd always stop myself outright from even considering the possibility but looking at how things were 2 years ago and how they are now and I'm not so sure that's a good thing to do. Utterly unconditional love is bad right?

I just need to care for her and she needs to be more independent of me.

I noticed before she left as well, that for the past few months I've only been initiating / reciprocating sex because it means I get to be close to her for longer.




I am so very, very unhappy, I wish I knew what the future held and what I should do.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Has it occurred to you that each of you might be better off with someone else? You're now heading into an EA while trying to get your wife, who has very different emotional needs, back. As hard as it is for you it's probably just as hard for her as you continue to push for beyond what she has to give. It's nobody's fault, you're just incompatible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *3Xnocharm said :**For those of us whose primary love language is physical touch, doing without is like having our oxygen cut off, like we are suffocating, or drowning. Its absolute misery. That is probably the biggest eason that I prefer to be in relationships, doing without affection is like a slow death. *
> 
> IMY, DO NOT go to another woman to get this need met. Your wife is a mess, and will never be able to meet your needs. However, bringing in a third party is still wrong, regardless of that fact. *She will never meet this need for you, so you would be wise to end this and move on*.


I speak from a Physical toucher's point of view.. this is SOOOO true, I can not even imagine being in a relationship with another as you describe your wife.. How in the world did you have the patience for it [email protected]#$%.. You call yourself "ImarriedYoung"... I didn't see you mention any children.. Please do yourself a favor.. leave this woman.. it's not there.. you will never get her to be what you deeply crave inside ....and you will FALL INTO AN EA in the future trying to live like this.. or worse...you will be reduced to a miserable numb shell of a man...back to those video games (addictions always fill a void for those who are seeking love & connection).....waking up someday wanting to kick yourself for allowing the best years of your life to slip away with this notion of Unconditional love floating in your head...with a woman who pushes you away consistently ...rejecting what another woman would LIGHT UP OVER... 

The reason you are close to an EA is because you are getting a need met by another who is capable of delivering.. do you really think you are this strong to NOT fall.. don't fool yourself.. you are a man drowning in a river right now and those women hold a life raft ...

Taken from this book..The Gifts of Imperfection a word about our need for Love & Connection...and how we fall into addictions and numbing when this is not met...


*Author Brene Brown says *...


> "After collecting thousands of stories , I'm willing to call this a FACT: *A deep sense of love and belonging is an irreducible need of all women, men and children*. We are biologically, cognitively, physically, and spiritually wired to love , to be loved, and to belong.
> 
> When these needs are not met, we don't function as we were meant to. We break. We fall apart. We NUMB...We ache...We hurt others. We get sick.
> 
> There are certainly other causes of illness, numbing and hurt, but the absence of love and belonging will always lead to suffering.


There is a section about NUMBING...she spend several hundred interviews trying to better understand the consequences of NUMBING & how "taking the edge off" behaviors is related to addiction...this is what she learned...



> *1*. Most of us engage in behaviors (consciously or not) that help us to numb and take the edge of off vulnerability, pain, and discomfort.
> 
> *2*. Addiction can be described as chronically & compulsively numbing and taking the edge off of feelings..
> 
> *3.* We cannot selectively numb emotions.. When we numb the painful emotions, we also numb the positive emotions.





imarriedyoung said:


> As an update I've still been trying to talk to her about it and address it but a couple of days ago we had an argument and she's gone to stay with her aunt for a few days.
> 
> *The argument was about her wanting more "distance" in order to "evaluate" our relationship. I snapped and said how insulted I felt that our entire marriage can supposedly be "evaluated" in a few short weeks of increased "distance" *and that the only way we could get more distance would be if she moved out (which, in hindsight, was a really dumb thing to say).
> 
> ...


 what is it that she has this hold on you.. this infatuation that has burned in you...can you explain it... it always amazes me when another can love LIKE THIS when they are not getting their needs met.. most people would grow resentment over time that eats at that love.. 
Do you have unresolved Resentment in your life >>>> Resentment Test 









...........Resentment: The Biggest Relationship Killer..........




> *In addition I think I'm starting to haphazardly fall into an EA =/ The distance makes it impossible practically for now but I'd be lying if I said It's nice to talk to someone who gives a crap and won't instantly give up and run away the second you stop holding everything up*. Usually I'd always stop myself outright from even considering the possibility but looking at how things were 2 years ago and how they are now and I'm not so sure that's a good thing to do. Utterly unconditional love is bad right?


 I do not believe in unconditional love.. .. it's NOT healthy , it causes one to be co-dependent with all sorts of issues, your needs going unmet, pushed aside....exactly what you have been living...it can even lead someone to being a doormat.. and this sure is not attractive to the spouse we are holding up so high, bending over backwards for....

What's Wrong with Unconditional Love (Part 1)

Is Unconditional Love Possible - Conditions And Love



> *I noticed before she left as well, that for the past few months I've only been initiating / reciprocating sex because it means I get to be close to her for longer*.


 consider getting off this roller coaster, if this is the only relationship you have had.. damn are you ever missing out.. but as others have said.. better to get out in an honest way...before falling into something.. 

As you will FALL if you stay.... Read this eye opening thread to how that works...







http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html



> *I am so very, very unhappy, I wish I knew what the future held and what I should do.*


 Heed the advice here.. your wife needs to be with a man who loves his cave, and has not much need for cuddling companionship ... plenty of men like that out there for someone like her.. you 2 are off the scales incompatible...


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

SO.....she is not meeting your basic relationship standards AND you fully support her as well? 

First thing I would tell you to do ASAP is to get Marriage Counseling.

Sounds to me like you like when people take advantage of you? You sound like a door mat. Also, lack of work = financial negligence on HER part. And no, you shouldn't be OK with the fact that you pay for everything, not at all.

Sit her butt down and tell her exactly what you need from this relationship. Also tell her to get a job and start supporting herself and pay 1/2 of the expenses within next 2 months.

I would also tell her that you have been thinking about ending this relationship/divorce.

That would be a pretty good hint for her to cut the **** and get her crap together.

NOTE: whatever she says, ignore (well not literally, but take it with a grain of salt). Chances are high she will tell you EXACTLY what you want to hear. What you need to do after the discussion is MONITOR and take notice of her ACTIONS. That's what you are looking for, ACTIONS not words.

If she doesn't change within few months, I would drop the "I think it's time for a divorce" line as a FINAL warning and recycle above.

If no further action is taken, it's time to divorce/end this relationship. UNLESS you want to accept status qua FOREVER....

PS. I married young as well.......at 20


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

We got together due to similar interests and hobbies, lots of laughter. For the better part of the first year of 'dating' most of what we would do is I'd go over to see her and we'd cuddle and sleep away most of the day together. It was wonderful.

As for carrying on.... she needed someone to care for her in ways she never really had been - and I wanted and tried my hardest to do that for her.

We've agreed to go to relationship counselling which is good I suppose.

I just wish she'd stop hurting me with all of the little things she keeps saying or not saying right now. I'm trying to take an honest look at myself and us but even from a distance it just feels like she's hitting where it hurts, little by little each time. I don't want to have to shrug it off forever but I definitely don't want to give up without a fight.


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## kindnessrules (Sep 5, 2014)

To IMY: Sorry your situation is so painful. Sounds like your W has significant emotional issues. Your needs are clearly not met. You sound like a truly nice person who is getting a raw deal.

I certainly would not give you advice to leave/stay because I am not a professional, you have not asked for my opinion, I don't know your entire situation, and I don’t know what’s best for you. Divorce is hopefully a last resort and I think most people would rather go through almost anything to try to make it work rather than split up and be alone again. Many people choose to live with a bad situation for a variety of reasons and work to find other ways in life to get their needs met – no, I do not mean an affair or EA. Legitimate ways for companionship: hobbies, interest groups, work, volunteering, etc. But you are younger (at least to me b/c I’m older) so it’s probably harder for you. Plus the disappointment of how you thought and hoped things would be.

There is nothing wrong with your need for affection, although I don’t know you so I don’t know if your needs are excessive, or if they may be perceived as excessive by someone whose needs are different. In my case, my husband told me before we married that he loves affection. Unfortunately, I have not met his needs very well. It’s not that I don’t enjoy affection, it’s that my need isn’t quite as high as his. My stronger need is for sex but we don’t have that in our marriage any more. Our marriage has deteriorated and it is hard to feel like giving him affection (non-sexual). He says his first wife and I both did not enjoy affection, but that’s not exactly true. I don’t enjoy affection with HIM due to the problems in our marriage. But in your case that doesn’t seem to be the case. Sounds like your W’s reason for not giving you affection is not out of dislike for you. Sounds like she truly does not have a high need for affection and/or has her own mental/emotional issues.

I have no solutions for you, but I don’t think an EA is the way to go. Would you really feel good about that? I think it’s better to resolve the problems in your relationship by working on it or ending it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

imarriedyoung said:


> As for carrying on.... she needed someone to care for her in ways she never really had been - and I wanted and tried my hardest to do that for her.


KISA - knight in shining armor. She wanted a replacement for the dad she never had, you had a need to rescue someone. None of which is sustainable, unless you start looking at each other as individuals with individual rights and needs apart from your own.

And btw, most 'girls' who marry 'dads' outgrow them.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> For those of us whose primary love language is physical touch, doing without is like having our oxygen cut off, like we are suffocating, or drowning. Its absolute misery. That is probably the biggest eason that I prefer to be in relationships, doing without affection is like a slow death.
> 
> IMY, DO NOT go to another woman to get this need met.


Great post!

I never had love from my parents as a kid. Quite the opposite, actually. I had PTSD and abandonment issues. My wife was very affectionate and sexual before we had kids. Now there is no sex and little if any affection. We get along ok and don't fight/scream but it's misery not having that physical touch. Ive gone to therapy (she doesn't want to) and we've talked (she doesn't like to open up) and nothing has changed in a few years.

Along the way I've filled my needs with female friends. Divorce is in our future, however she says she wants to change. We'll see.

Good luck OP!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cobalt, have you read No More Mr Nice Guy?


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> cobalt, have you read No More Mr Nice Guy?


No.....is it good?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> No.....is it good?


In your case, I suspect it will be life-altering.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> In your case, I suspect it will be life-altering.


Told the wife last night if things don't start changing, I'll be filing for divorce.

She said she will try to make changes. She seemed genuine. We'll see...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Print this out, fill it out, and hand it to her. Tell her it has all she needs to know about 'changing.'

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_His.pdf


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Print this out, fill it out, and hand it to her. Tell her it has all she needs to know about 'changing.'
> 
> http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_His.pdf


That might be a little overkill _right now_ after the talk we had. 

I'll keep it on the back burner if she needs a kick in the fanny. 

Thanks!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why? It's a perfect way for you to continue the conversation. Just say "I filled this out so you can see exactly what it is that's bothering me; that way it's easier for you to see what I mean, and what kinds of effort I'd have to see to stay." You're HELPING her by providing it.

You're just shaking in your boots at handing it to her because you're afraid of the fight, afraid she'll just leave, because you're a Nice Guy (read that book). You'll never get what you want if you don't get control of that. 

This is the PERFECT time to give it to her because you finally said you're nearly done. You have to MEAN it.

btw, you can also hand her the blank one for wives to fill out and ask her to fill it out so you can see what YOU need to change.


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Why? It's a perfect way for you to continue the conversation. Just say "I filled this out so you can see exactly what it is that's bothering me; that way it's easier for you to see what I mean, and what kinds of effort I'd have to see to stay." You're HELPING her by providing it.
> 
> *You're just shaking in your boots at handing it to her because you're afraid of the fight, afraid she'll just leave, because you're a Nice Guy (read that book). You'll never get what you want if you don't get control of that. *
> 
> ...


ummm.........no  we've had plenty of "fights" and discussions. Not afraid of her leaving at all or being alone. If I wanted to, I could file right now and take up with my female friend. Maybe that would be the best thing but I'm going to give her some chances to change because she said she wants to.

I think you have the wrong impression of me (which is understandable) but the last thing I need is that book.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you have a thread?


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Do you have a thread?


an old one but some stuff has changed since then. Maybe I'll start a new one....


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## Cobalt (Nov 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> Do you have a thread?


just posted new thread :smthumbup:


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## SweetAndSour (Feb 25, 2012)

Cobalt said:


> Great post!
> 
> I never had love from my parents as a kid. Quite the opposite, actually. I had PTSD and abandonment issues. My wife was very affectionate and sexual before we had kids. Now there is no sex and little if any affection. We get along ok and don't fight/scream but it's misery not having that physical touch. Ive gone to therapy (she doesn't want to) and we've talked (she doesn't like to open up) and nothing has changed in a few years.
> 
> ...


Along the way I've filled my needs with female friends

What and How ???


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

Update time:

Our marriage has completely disintegrated. Since she came back from her Aunt's she hasn't looked me in the eyes and barely said more than a few words and hasn't even touched me at all. We share a bed and it's just a regular double bed so it's not like there's a massive amount of space but still no physical contact whatsoever.

It seems like I've completely triggered her into thinking how incredibly unhealthy our relationship is and how we should end it. She sent me a letter she wrote on facebook, she isn't able to talk to me in person because it makes her too anxious. To quote from it:

"I didn't let you have friends, I was constantly self harming, I overdosed on our honeymoon and cried on our wedding night, I had and still do have outbursts and you can't even talk to me without treading on eggshells. To love someone like that isn't healthy. Which is why I've told you my love has faded because that's what happens with long term unhappiness."



Honestly I feel so hurt, so utterly destroyed. I need(ed) her to be there for me just for once whilst I was trying to be open with myself and question things but there's no resevoir of goodwill. There's apparently no long-term build up of love, affection, time, and effort with her because she's actively planning to move out and that's just that I guess.

She looked into counselling just barely before deciding that she didn't think it would help because in her mind our relationship has never been "healthy".

This isn't the first time she's completely flipped to this spiel about all of the above. But this is the first time I've ever considered that at least some of it might be right.

I keep trying to convince myself that I don't deserve to put up with her crap; to keep supporting her (and getting into minor-ish debt); and that she needs to actually put in the effort and actively TRY to make things better in a big, important way for once.

I don't have that much stuff, most of "our" stuff has been bought specifically for her. I could move to just a room with an internet connection then actually have enough money to pay off debts eventually, or even learn to drive and buy a car.

I feel so betrayed that she's giving up so easily, that she doesn't value all of the effort that both I and her have put in at all.

Part of me wants to tell her to just pack a bag and just leave or even to outright kick her out the door. I keep expecting her to be gone with just a note saying goodbye and that'll be it. Or that she'll stay for ages because she can't face the reality of actually moving and staying away.

She's been hardly eating and isn't looking after herself at all. It absolutely tears me up inside to see how she's suffering like this but I'm trying to remain distant and to think about myself...

I WANT to tell her to TRY but I don't know if I should.

Is there any woman out there that would actually enjoy a guy who needs a lot of cuddling and close physical attention? Who would let me care for her just enough without it being unhealthy?

Sorry for the wall of text. A lot on my mind and of course only a couple of people to actually talk to about it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You've already gotten a lot of good advice. Go back and read it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Yes, there are millions of us women out here that "would actually enjoy a guy who needs a lot of cuddling and close physical attention? Who would let me care for her just enough without it being unhealthy?". Literally...millions of us. Give yourself permission to let her go, and go find one.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

imarriedyoung said:


> PTSD from traumatic events from her childhood


You are a Secondary Survivor. Your wife is a Survivor of trauma.

Being a Secondary is its own he11. You understand why your wife is the way she is, and you feel a lot of compassion for her. You can see how her unhappiness and dysfunction work together, and you can see how her recovery in theory should be so simple. But it isn't. Meanwhile you are suffering because she is not capable of meeting your needs. It is not fair to you, nor should any person be forced to live like that.

But, you understand why she can't meet your needs. It isn't her fault whatever it was that happened to her. So it isn't fair to her either that things have gone like this.

There really isn't a nice solution to your situation. Individual counseling and/or joining a support group can help you at least not feel so guilty or sad about it.


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## kpmg (Dec 15, 2013)

I am in a situation similar to OP...I crave & crave physical touch, But i am getting none of it . My wife either will not or is unable to provide me with it. I am not talking about sexual relations, which is not too bad between us. My wife is just not a touchy-feely person, and it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

I am seriously considering to just go get massages on a regular basis. It would be from a proper massage therapist, not one of those shady places.I am hoping one or two massage a month would take care of my craving for any physical touch. However I am not 100% sure if this is a good idea. I am leaning towards it. Also I have no idea what to expect, because I have never gotten a massage from anyone.

I am also wondering...if this is a good advice for OP as well?


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## imarriedyoung (Jun 11, 2012)

Update time.

This will probably be the last one. Yesterday I asked if it was okay if I played piano for a bit when I get home from work (takes up the living room + noise so I try to be considerate). She said that's fine and I'm allowed to do whatever I want. I said I couldn't and smiled (meaning that I can't hold her close, tell her I love her and kiss her until the sun rises again). 

The message that was left for me when I get home:

"You can do whatever you want now. You know my mum's home number. If I stay any longer I'll go crazy." - S


She left her rings too, blocked then unblocked and removed me from facebook and has taken a bunch of pictures of her and her friends (and maybe one of us) with her.

Not the first time she's done this but this time I give up.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good. Go live your own life and learn to be ok by yourself. THEN look for a partner who fits. Who knows, maybe it will be her.


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