# Unchartered territory



## jay77 (Nov 20, 2015)

I am unsure if this is the correct forum for this, but here goes. I'm 38 and my wife is 37. We've been together since high school, 22 years, and married for 16 years this February. We have a son who is 5 and lost our first child during pregnancy. We both have professional jobs and have post-graduate educations. Earlier this week, my wife dropped a bombshell on me. After dropping off our son for school, I asked my wife what was wrong because she had been very distant on Sunday. She told me essentially that the spark she has between us is gone; that she isn't sure this is what she wants anymore. Angry and upset, there was a lot of arguing and questioning being asked. She claims that it isn't anything I did and it's not me, but it is her. However, she isn't able to explain much as to why she is saying / feeling / thinking it. I asked her if she has cheated / slept with anyone else and she said no. I asked her if she's been seeing someone else and she says no. I do believe that she isn't. We argued throughout the day and I asked her if she still loved me and she couldn't answer. I asked her if she wanted me to stay in the house and she would only say for our son, but not anything about her. That evening, after more arguing, she did say that she was surprised as to how I reacted (which was angry, volatile, passionate, etc...) and thought that I would have just rolled over and said ok and that was it. We argued / talked some on Tuesday and I was able to get a bit more out of her. In a nutshell, she has said that she is just unsure as to who she is, as far as the relationship goes; that her being the wife, she has put her life on hold for myself and our son. She has been very focused on the marriage and fairly anti-social, for lack of better words, on stuff outside the marriage. I've pushed her to do things outside the marriage for herself, but she wouldn't really. She has now joined a running club and does go out with them weekly. She said that she has felt that I have become complacent in the marriage and she thought I was just there to be there. She has said that she is uncomfortable around me as fair as intimacy goes and is having a very hard time with any type of affection initiated by her. She'll show it if I initiate it, but not vice versa. On Wednesday, she was finally able to admit that she was willing to fight for what we have and that she hasn't given up on it. She has agreed to see a counselor and has her first session next week.
I'm very lost in this matter, because I want to be there for her, hell, we've been through a lot over the past 22 years and have always been there for each other. She is very independent, and I want to give her space so she can work through things, but it is super awkward at home because I am trying to keep things normal, best I can, for her, me and our son, but she really won't or doesn't want to talk to me about what's going on. I did a very stupid thing by asking one of her friends about the situation, granted the friend lied to me, but it did nothing to help the situation with my wife. 
I honestly thought that things were good between us. That our marriage was good and that she was happy. I saw no indications that she was feeling like this. The only thing she can saw, is that it has been going on a for awhile. I just can't imagine, whatever she is searching for or desiring, can be make her happier than what she has been with me and our son. 
So, I'm turning to all of you. To the husbands that have gone through this with their wife; to the wives who have gone through a similar situation themselves to give some direction. I am hurting from this and am hurting because I have no idea what is going on with my wife. Any advice, suggestions, anything would be appreciated!!!


----------



## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

I'm sorry you are here. This place is painful when you first get here. 
In order to give you good advice, we need to eliminate with 100% certainty
that your wife is not involved in an emotional affair (EA) or a physical affair (PA).
This will let us know what advice to give you. 

Do you have access to your wife's cell phone or is it password protected.
Does she phone guard? Keep her phone with her constantly.
Do you have access to phone records? Go online and view the account.
See who she has been talking to and messaging.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

The new running club has me a bit suspicious, I must say.

Does her recent change in behavior coincide with her joining the club? And are there men in this group, as well as women?

Sorry, but that's my gut reaction .


----------



## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Probably another dude in the mix to be honest, your wife's reaction is pretty typical of a woman in a boring marriage in the throws of an exciting affair. What she doesn't understand is this other guy isn't going to pay the bills, paint the bedroom, mow the lawn, hold her when her parents die etc... Things are exciting because it's just sex and possibly dates with no other responsibility (of course it's exciting), she's in a dream world and comparing your day-in day-out ho-hum life to something that is new, exciting, taboo... You're gonna lose every time. You can't compare to a new exciting affair.

Physically have you let yourself go? You will be surprised how much of that spark is tied directly to your waistline and how you take care of yourself.


----------



## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

I would not jump to the conclusion of an affair just yet. But definitely be on your guard for one stirring.
I went through this at approx the same age, same amount of time together. My hubby thought all was well and we were on the 'party train' as he put it. But I felt we were disconnected and very alone. 
I didn't actually know what was wrong with me so it made it very difficult for me to explain to him when he would ask questions. 
Your wife's response to you actually getting upset and feeling passionate about her questioning your marriage is a dead giveaway that she thought you didn't care anymore. 
Sadly you can be feeling amazing, like "all is well, could use a few tweaks but we'll get there," and she can be feeling alone, misunderstood, and afraid to ask for anything from you. Telling herself 'it's always been this way' I must've changed and 'I can't ask him to change because he's the same man he's always been. That wouldn't be fair."
I don't know of course. Those are just things *I* thought while trying to figure out why I felt so discontent with my 18 year marriage. (At the time.)

What is your wife's love language? In our marriage we realized that I had been speaking his love languages fluently so he was feeling happy and like things were good. But I needed more quality time and uninterrupted attention. I'm an external processor and my hubby is an introverted internal processor. But once he understood (ie I had to be very brave and ask for exactly what I wanted: 30 minutes of uninterrupted face to face time every day.) he realized that I needed that in order to feel loved my him. (That was just a start)
Your wife may just be floundering because her "love tank" is empty. Not because you don't love her but because she isn't receiving your love in the way it registers to her heart.
Counseling is a great idea. She may ALSO want to do some IC in order to work up to understanding what she needs in a relationship so she can articulate it to you.
What I realized was that it wasn't my hubby's fault that he didn't know, because I never told him.

Obviously this response is simplistic and you guys have a long road ahead in order to forge the kind of marriage where you can both feel loved.

(Btw this is my first post on TAM so I apologize if it's not up to par, feel free to ask questions if I wasn't clear.)


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Very good post @tigerlily99! 

Here is an article I copied from an older thread.. about "Apathy" seeping into a marriage...



> If someone is not happy, for whatever reason (even if she is too emotional)... if they feel their spouse is utterly oblivious to this - his attitude ..."what is wrong with her, we have a good marriage". All this will scream ...."he just does not get me!!...and there is nothing I can do....this is who he is".......It would zap something deep inside of such women...feeling the marriage has no hope...
> 
> How important, when the laughter stops in the home, the smiles, the "I love you's", some banter, a warm connection.... (something is amiss)...to FIGHT for getting back to this place....once again talking to each other , seeking how the other feels, trying to look outside of our lenses to their point of view... seek to honor their love languages.. take a romantic vacation.. reminisce your sweet beginnings, get out a photo album....it's a good start..
> 
> ...


----------



## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

Great post tiger! 70 percent chance of an affair and I'll give 30 percent to your explanation. Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Sorry, but I think it's pretty likely that she is either cheating on you or planning to.

The red flags include:

"She told me essentially that the spark she has between us is gone"
"She has said that she is uncomfortable around me as fair as intimacy goes and is having a very hard time with any type of affection initiated by her. She'll show it if I initiate it, but not vice versa."
"she really won't or doesn't want to talk to me about what's going on."

I second ButtPunch's questions about her cell phone, if she has one.


----------



## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

I hope Tiger is right and she may be however I just want the OP to make 100% sure she isn't cheating first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

No one can say for sure, that's why the intellectual one(me) gave odds! Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jay77 (Nov 20, 2015)

I have confronted her about her cheating on me or falling for someone else, and she has assured me that there is no cheating or anyone else. I may be a fool, but I do truly believe her. She isn't phone guarding or anything like that, so I'm confident it's not someone else. A big thing with the running club is that she did tell me that she has felt like she has put everything of hers aside for me and our family. I encouraged her to do this, because it is something she likes. I do truly feel that if she was just done with everything, she wouldn't be trying counseling, considering she hates counselors, or be willing to go through what we are going through, because it just sucks. The easy solution would just be calling it quits, but she had that opportunity and told me she chose not to do it. We had a date for ourselves, without our son, yesterday and she truly seemed to enjoy the time we spent. She said she had a good time and that it was fun. She did hurt me though because she told me she didn't want me to think that this fixed everything.


----------



## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

jay77 said:


> I have confronted her about her cheating on me or falling for someone else, and she has assured me that there is no cheating or anyone else. I may be a fool, but I do truly believe her. She isn't phone guarding or anything like that, so I'm confident it's not someone else. A big thing with the running club is that she did tell me that she has felt like she has put everything of hers aside for me and our family. I encouraged her to do this, because it is something she likes. I do truly feel that if she was just done with everything, she wouldn't be trying counseling, considering she hates counselors, or be willing to go through what we are going through, because it just sucks. The easy solution would just be calling it quits, but she had that opportunity and told me she chose not to do it. We had a date for ourselves, without our son, yesterday and she truly seemed to enjoy the time we spent. She said she had a good time and that it was fun. * She did hurt me though because she told me she didn't want me to think that this fixed everything.*


Red flag. Could be she is saying that because she feels guilty for cheating on an affair partner.

There are so many red flags all over this situation.

What did her friend lie to you about when you told her about the situation?


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Cheating spouses, EA or PA, have been lying and denying since time immemorial. How to handle the situation you are in, OP, demands you knowing for sure or at least as sure as you can be. Asking her isn't likely to get you any useful information if she is involved with someone else or heading that way. A lot of cheating spouses don't lock their phones or display obvious behavior. Stats say only about 7% of affairs are discovered during the marriage. 

Seriously, snoop. Check her phone, check her phone against the bill if you have access so that you know if she's been deleting anything. Check her email, her social media, and look for unexplained expenses, etc.

If you find nothing, good! But you need to look. Your marriage is at stake and how to handle things from here on out really depends on if she's in some kind of affair fog or not.


----------



## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Weekly running group? What day does she run......Sundays?

Two scenarios. 
A guy in the group that listens to her and doesn't judge. 

A single woman in the group that befriended your wife and is encouraging her. 

Which ever it is, "the seed has been planted". Now what she does from here on out is her choice. She'll either water and nurture the "seed" and wait for it to sprout or she'll dig it up and discarded. 

You have choices also!! Remember that!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Everyone here is so wrapped up in tying her to an affair that the fact that they got together at 15 and 16 hasn't been addressed. These two literally know nothing else, and THAT could be the source of her discontentment as she approaches 40. They are two completely different people then they were in their early years. 

If he was here lamenting that he'd never slept with anyone else people would understand. 

And like many marriages it's likely that they have neglected the marriage. 


Maybe she's tried to address it and maybe she hasn't. 

But I will say that I belong to a couple of running clubs and while plenty of people do it and don't have affairs it is a great place to get to know people so their is opportunity for one who isn't happy at home. 

Saw where this was asked but not answered: OP, have you let yourself go? Has she? 

Keep on with the dates and follow through with counseling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I am going to run counter to most others on this thread.. One thing that nobody has actually mentioned is that maybe, just maybe she is simply telling you the truth. There may or may not be an EA or a PA. She may simply have realized that she has lost who she is and is questioning her self and her life. To me the biggest red flag in the OP was the part about being together since HS. People change. You are probably not the same person you were in HS and she probably isn't either. If she is having an EA or PA, this will come out some time. In the meantime regardless of that issue, the best thing you can do is to focus on yourself. Become a better man, not for her, but for yourself. Regardless of what she decides, YOU are the one who must decide what is best for you.


----------



## jay77 (Nov 20, 2015)

As far as letting ourselves go, we both are physically active and exercise regularly. She is very focused on how she looks and I always tell her that I am happy with how she looks. Granted, I'm not like I was 22 years ago, but I keep in shape, for myself and her. Here running club is on Tuesday night and the only thing she has mentioned about it, is that, if she knew i would have been supportive as I am now, she would have done it years ago. I do truly believe there is no one else, at this point. Whatever this is that is going on, truly sucks!! She did spend the night away from the house last night to have some time to think. This was a big decision for her, because this is the first time she has been away from our son, overnight, since he was born. She is very protective, as I am too, of him, because we lost our first child and had severe medical complications with our son when she was pregnant.


----------



## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Do you know where she went last night? Did she tell you or did she just say she wasn't going to spend the night at home? If it isn't another man she might just be going though a time when she got together with you so young and now feels like she missed out on something. Maybe she just wants to be single without the confinements and responsibilities of marriage. Maybe she has resentments about some things you during the marriage. She may just be a Walk Away Wife and there is nothing you can do about it. I'm sorry you are going though this. I understand how upsetting it is and frustrating that there may be nothing you can do or say to change her mind.


----------



## jay77 (Nov 20, 2015)

I am the one that brought up her getting away a night or so. She let me get the hotel for her and she let me know the room number.


----------



## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

As soon as you said she spent the night someplace else I have to wonder if she told you where she's going. 

If you encouraged her before to have more activities in er life and now she's starting to do that, then to me it's obvious she didn't listen to you and now she's telling you that's one of the reasons she's going sour on the marriage.

Maybe it's time you sit down with her and show her where you encouraged her to be more active outside the home and tell her that if she has any intentions of trying to repair the marriage, she can't do it by ducking out for a day or how long. If there's a problem then you meet it head on and fix it. I hope she didn't tell you she was going to be staying at one place and went to another. Right now by her leaving to me seems like she's planting a seed of doubt in your head.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Hmm, one thing that just stood out to me in your post was that she'd have joined the club years ago if she'd known you'd be supportive. 

Why would she think you wouldn't be supportive? That suggests a bit about the underlying dynamic of the marriage, or at least what she perceived to be the case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

6301 said:


> As soon as you said she spent the night someplace else I have to wonder if she told you where she's going.
> 
> If you encouraged her before to have more activities in er life and now she's starting to do that, then to me it's obvious she didn't listen to you and now she's telling you that's one of the reasons she's going sour on the marriage.
> 
> Maybe it's time you sit down with her and show her where you encouraged her to be more active outside the home and tell her that if she has any intentions of trying to repair the marriage, she can't do it by ducking out for a day or how long. If there's a problem then you meet it head on and fix it. I hope she didn't tell you she was going to be staying at one place and went to another. Right now by her leaving to me seems like she's planting a seed of doubt in your head.


Or, I dunno, she could just be going some place quiet to think about it. Self reflection is something that too few of us practce.


----------



## jay77 (Nov 20, 2015)

Part of the reason as to why she thought I wouldn't be supportive is due to her feeling as if she has to do everything in the marriage as far as a wife goes. I'll tell her all the time, if she needs help with something, she just has to ask. Granted, I may not be the best at anticipating what needs to be done or taking the initiative, she'll tell you that, but she'll also admit that she is bad about actually asking for help. She did say that she felt that I would be put off if she decided to actually do something for herself.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

First thought? _Find out who the boyfriend is._

That said, I'm encouraged by the fact that she's not being secretive w/ her phone. That's always a HUGE red flag.

How about her other electronics? Do you have full access to each other's e-mail and social media accounts?

Have you noticed any new friends on her social media feeds? She may very well be telling the truth about not being involved w/ anyone else (yet), but that doesn't mean that she doesn't have someone whispering in her ear. Could be a guy or it could be a new (and toxic) friend. Either way, do your due diligence. 

_Discretely._

Check phone bills, credit card and bank statements, etc.

Honestly, though, it sounds like she's trying to passively end your marriage by getting YOU to pull the plug.



jay77 said:


> I am the one that brought up her getting away a night or so. She let me get the hotel for her and she let me know the room number.


Hmm. If she does this again, show up an hour or two after she's arrived w/ some roses and a bottle of her favorite wine.

You might learn a lot.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

jay77 said:


> I have confronted her about her cheating on me or falling for someone else, and she has assured me that there is no cheating or anyone else. I may be a fool, but I do truly believe her. She isn't phone guarding or anything like that, so I'm confident it's not someone else. A big thing with the running club is that she did tell me that she has felt like she has put everything of hers aside for me and our family. I encouraged her to do this, because it is something she likes. I do truly feel that if she was just done with everything, she wouldn't be trying counseling, considering she hates counselors, or be willing to go through what we are going through, because it just sucks. The easy solution would just be calling it quits, but she had that opportunity and told me she chose not to do it. We had a date for ourselves, without our son, yesterday and she truly seemed to enjoy the time we spent. She said she had a good time and that it was fun. She did hurt me though because she told me she didn't want me to think that this fixed everything.


Look, just as a precaution go online and check the phone bill. Takes 15 minutes. At least you can rule that out.

You came here for advice. Take it


----------



## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Marc878 said:


> Look, just as a precaution go online and check the phone bill. Takes 15 minutes. At least you can rule that out.
> 
> You came here for advice. Take it


OP, to follow on what Marc said here you need to STOP any confronts or accusations. You may die inside keeping quiet but this will help you both ways.

1. If she's not cheating you don't end up dealing with her now being mad at the accusation.

2. If she is cheating, your accusation means she just got better at hiding things from you so keeping your mouth shut she'll slip.

Check the phone for sure. Get Dr Fone wondershare and check texts and the phone bill. Check emails. 

You have some red flags but thus far nothing is screaming out that you need to act rash. So don't.

Observe. Spend time with her and try and do couple things. Send flowers and little things to generate a spark.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

It's always an affair. That's why this forum is not good. 

A - When it turns out to actually BE an affair, the mob wasn't right. Any more than a stopped clock is "right" twice a day.

B - This is LITERALLY a textbook definition of a walk-away wife. I almost accused him of being a troll in that it looked a little TOO textbook. What, is this Brandon Cooper? NO WAY his wife could be one of the 60%+ of wives who fall out of love with their husbands? No, she was just chugging away at her loving marriage when she got horny for someone out of the blue, right?

TO THE MOB:
If you spent NEARLY as much time trying to help people to prevent affairs rather than catching them, maybe we could do some good.

Dang it, people. Wives fall out of love ALL THE TIME. And even the "experts" don't get it.


----------



## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> It's always an affair. That's why this forum is not good.
> 
> A - When it turns out to actually BE an affair, the mob wasn't right. Any more than a stopped clock is "right" twice a day.
> 
> ...


This is no better than the mob.....You don't know what's happening with her either. The only thing the MOB wants is for him to investigate a little so he will know for sure. We can't give good advice until the affair POSSIBILITY is eliminated completely. VAR the car for a week and he should know.


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

OP - you need to keep eyes open and mouth shut while searching for an affair. Also, if you think the date nights and such are working, do more of them and be spontaneous.... I think you need to work on both angles, ensure there is no affair DISCRETELY and 'date your wife' to build the relationship.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

ButtPunch said:


> This is no better than the mob....You don't know what's happening with her either.


Are you serious? The "mob" is screaming "SHE'S CHEATING" with little to no evidence. I'm saying she's a walk-away-wife after he describes one to a TEE in his wife.




ButtPunch said:


> The only thing the MOB wants is for him to investigate a little so he will know for sure.


That is also a lie. See which threads go longer. The ones where you all help to catch her in an affair or the ones where the husband says "she doesn't love me, what do I do?" And all of your "INVESTIGATE, she's cheating" advice comes up empty.




ButtPunch said:


> We can't give good advice until the affair POSSIBILITY is eliminated completely.


I don't even understand that statement. Even IF she's having an affair, that's a SYMPTOM!!!!! She went looking for a reason. Crunch the affair without addressing why she walked, he's back here again in three years.


----------



## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Are you serious? The "mob" is screaming "SHE'S CHEATING" with little to no evidence. I'm saying she's a walk-away-wife after he describes one to a TEE in his wife.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please.....an affair isn't a symptom of anything but poor moral character and we don't even know if she is even having one. 

A quick search of the phone records and two well placed VARS and he will have his answer in less than a week. Then the OP will know if he needs to be hitting the 180 or the MC.


----------



## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

MachoMcCoy said:


> Dang it, people. Wives fall out of love ALL THE TIME. And even the "experts" don't get it.


and men too.

I guess a lot of people don't understand that "Till Death Do Us Part" phrase 

Everyday can't be rainbows and unicorns in a marriage. People don't stay young and hot for 60 years. Daily life can be mundane.

Of course, we're only hearing OP side of the story. Maybe his wife has tried to engage him and to keep the embers burning, and it fell on deaf ears for years.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

ButtPunch said:


> Please.....an affair isn't a symptom of anything but poor moral character


Must be nice to live in such an easy black and white world.


----------



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> Of course, we're only hearing OP side of the story. Maybe his wife has tried to engage him and to keep the embers burning, and it fell on deaf ears for years.


Wait a minute. RW may be on to something. Maybe...just MAYBE...there was miscommunication in this marriage. Perhaps...stay with me now...she was reaching out to him and he didn't hear her? This maybe went on for years and years until he finally got the ILYBYNILWY speech? Then it shocked him because he DIDN'T SEE IT COMING?

I was being sarcastic, if you didn't get it. I just described 75% of the problems on this board. Even IF there was infidelity, this came first. Start fixing that. So many of the men on this board have a wife that doesn't love them right now. And so few of them know it. They'll find out after it's too late. I see it again and again.

But keep chasing your keyloggers and VARs. I guess you do need to know. The result will be the same regardless. I'm just trying to cut out the long, painful middle man.


----------



## Dude007 (Jun 22, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> First thought? _Find out who the boyfriend is._
> 
> That said, I'm encouraged by the fact that she's not being secretive w/ her phone. That's always a HUGE red flag.


Be careful with this phone thing, she could have a clean phone AND A DIRTY PHONE!!!!!!!! Especially these days w GoPhones...DUDE


----------

