# No Choice



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

An accident is a fool’s destiny…

I have read many threads on TAM and a central theme I see running through these posts is the underlying need to understand “why”. Allow me to offer this for your consideration. Agree with it if you find truth within; dismiss it as foolish ramblings if you do not.

We so often on here speak of choices and how that WSs make bad ones but I would like to offer an alternative thought. What is a choice? What shall I wear today, what shall I have for lunch, which route shall I take to work. We all make dozens of decisions daily that affect our lives to varying degrees. Some decisions are mostly inconsequential and some are life changing.
What are the processes that go into making any decision? First the data must be collected or recalled, then it must be processed and then an extrapolation as to how to move forward must be formulated. This process requires intellect, which allows us the ability to make all of the necessary computations and arrive at our conclusion. If any of the factors in this process are faulty or inadequate then our decisions will be less than perfect and flawed or, in other words, a bad decision.
If our data or the recollection of our data is flawed then any decision we make will be made based on faulty data, which would be a bad decision. If our ability to process and extrapolate the data is inadequate in regards to how the end result will actually turn out and how that will affect us, then our decision is based on a fictitious outcome and is, again, a bad decision. And we cannot ignore the role that emotion plays in the process. The individual level of intellectual development also dictates to what extent emotion is involved in the decision making process.

So let us try to examine the process to glean an understanding of how bad decisions are arrived at. When we are faced with any decision this process, as described above, begins. Now some of us have the ability to project an expected outcome based on previous experience and societal norms. Again, in some people, this projection is then used to determine the effects of this outcome on ourselves, our loved ones and any others that may be affected. The latter requires an area of intellectual processing that comes heavily into play and that is empathy. We compare the likely outcome’s affect on others to how it would make us feel if it were happening to us instead. This is probably the most lacking element of the processing ability in people who cheat accounting for a high number of the “bad choices”. Because if this element is inadequate or missing altogether, then the data is processed as to how it will affect only us and little or no thought is given to the effect it will have on others. This makes any decision made under these conditions selfish by definition since credence was given only to the self aspect of the outcome. Now many factors contribute to this narcissistic point of view. Limited processing ability however, is the root cause because all of the other factors rely on the ability to process and identify the negative effects these other factors will have. Lacking that ability those factors are not identified as bad and again, the data is corrupted.

There is also significant influence in the process that is brought about by past life experiences. How we formulate what is “good” and “bad” is largely dependent upon what we were taught and what we were exposed to. For instance, lying has become so prevalent in todays society so as to even be expected in some instances. People actually expect someone to lie to them under some circumstances and we have become so desensitized to it that we barely flinch when it happens. So, as the cheater formulates the decision in their mind, far too little credence is given to the lies and deceit that will have to occur before, during and after the affair. So, as this disregard for truth is incorporated into the decision process it fails to quantify the severity of lying and therefore, the data is faulty. The result is a bad decision. This also explains how the offspring of cheaters, more often than not, become cheaters themselves as their exposure to cheating and how it was dealt with, provides them a level of desensitization and corrupts their data and again, a bad decision results.

Part of the decision process in lesser developed individuals, because of their tendency to think only of themselves, is hugely influenced by emotion. Feelings drive almost everything we do in life and our ultimate goal is to “feel” happy, loved, safe and secure. Some of us can do that within the limits of an empathetic mindset, some cannot. In these individuals their feelings are paramount to all else. Even if they have a limited ability to see the horrific outcome of their actions, their minds simply cannot refuse themselves the good feeling that they so desperately want. It is much like a drug addict who will sacrifice everything for the next fix and, in fact, many cheaters are also dependent on drugs and/or alcohol. Their minds are not strong enough to deny themselves what feels good to them in the short term, regardless of the effects it will have on the long term. Again this is due to limited processing ability and not being able to place anything or anyone ahead of themselves. A line from a Star Trek movie explains it very well. After one of the characters sacrificed himself to save the ship he was asked in his dying moments why he did it. His response was “sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one”. In reality, the needs of the family should almost always supersede the needs of any single member therein but in lesser developed persons that is not the case. So, failing to use empathy in the decision process corrupts the data and again, a bad decision is made.

There are far too many factors for me to list each one individually but I wanted to establish a basis for my next statement which is this. The actions of cheaters are really not choices but rather destiny. We like to feel like we all have a say in our lives and our destiny but the truth is we have very little. The fact is that a person is only capable of what they are capable of and no matter how much we would want it to be different, it simply is beyond our control for the most part. This is why reconciliation is so difficult and rare after an affair. We are expecting the individual to do something they are simply not equipped to do. We implore tactics that are only sometimes successful, wherein we force the cheater to face the effects of their actions personally but even then it is hit and miss, again, being dependent on how much mental wherewithal the individual has.

So, if we accept the premise as I have stated it then the reason for the affair, almost without exception, would be the inability of the individual to process information fully, accurately and to completion so as arrive at a decision that has an acceptable outcome for all involved. Not having this ability exemplifies a level of retarded mental development. We are all at some level of mental retardation and the more retarded one is, the more propensity there is for bad things to happen. Not because they “choose” to destroy lives but rather because they simply cannot do any better with what they have to work with.

I want to mention that I take great care in selecting the appropriate words to try and express my thoughts in the most accurate way possible based on their actual definition and not some stigmatized definition society places on them. In every post I submit I try to provide helpful insight and in no way mean any harm, slander nor malice toward any individual. These are merely my opinions and I wholeheartedly believe them to be true and accurate.

One last thing to those of you who would refute this point of view. I ask you, rhetorically or not, if any person had the ability to make the right decision, the ability to put the family first, the ability to see the devastation they were about to cause, the ability to place the needs of others ahead of themselves, then why would they proceed? Food for thought.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> I ask you, rhetorically or not, if any person had the ability to make the right decision, the ability to put the family first, the ability to see the devastation they were about to cause, the ability to place the needs of others ahead of themselves, then why would they proceed? Food for thought.


You do it because you figure you can get away with it. Goes back to the old adage, " what folks don't know won't hurt them".


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Seems to me in a nutshell you're saying; they cheat because they're not smart enough to know better - based on their life experiences and emotional immaturity. Maybe.

But it really doesn't matter whether it's that or just a lack of morality. It's still cheating, it's still a betrayal, and the results to the BS are all the same.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> You do it because you figure you can get away with it. Goes back to the old adage, " what folks don't know won't hurt them".


Yes, but even this data is faulty. Think about STDs, identity theft and plain old obsession. If the AP got so obsessed that they wanted you at any cost what might they do to the SO? Also, if they get into your private info they could steal your SO blind. These should also be considerations in the decision. It also speaks to the statement I made concerning how little regard our culture has for truth. We are so accepting of deceit and dishonesty that it has become a part of our society and even factors as a component in our decision making.



badmemory said:


> Seems to me in a nutshell you're saying; they cheat because they're not smart enough to know better - based on their life experiences and emotional immaturity. Maybe.
> 
> But it really doesn't matter whether it's that or just a lack of morality. It's still cheating, it's still a betrayal, and the results to the BS are all the same.


In a nutshell, exactly. And you're right, the effects are still the same. I merely posit, mostly for those wishing to R, that it's not so much "how could they to this to me" but rather, given their thought process, "how cold they not".


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> In a nutshell, exactly. And you're right, the effects are still the same. I merely posit, mostly for those wishing to R, that it's not so much "how could they to this to me" but rather, given their thought process, "*how cold they not".*


I'd tend to believe that there are plenty of spouses who have similar thought processes, but refuse to cheat. That's where the morality and/or fear of consequences comes in to play. How one gets that morality, I think, is initially based on how you were raised. That's why I agree with you about the cycle of cheating from parents to children. That can't be underestimated.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Your statements seem to be predicated with the ideals that the WS is actually thinking about what they are doing and weighing the pro's and con's before making "educated" decisions. The fact of the matter is that they are doing it solely for personal satisfaction, the feeling of justification and self gratification, and selfishness. They are generally never thinking about the effects of their decisions and actions, as they have gotten themselves to the point that they either don't care about anyone else but themselves, are out to actually inflict pain upon another, or believe that they are entitled and the thoughts generally only go as far as this. Like has been aid lots of times they think they are so sly they are not going to get caught.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> . . . . The actions of cheaters are really not choices but rather destiny. We like to feel like we all have a say in our lives and our destiny but the truth is we have very little. The fact is that a person is only capable of what they are capable of and no matter how much we would want it to be different, it simply is beyond our control for the most part.
> . . . .
> One last thing to those of you who would refute this point of view. I ask you, rhetorically or not, if any person had the ability to make the right decision, the ability to put the family first, the ability to see the devastation they were about to cause, the ability to place the needs of others ahead of themselves, then why would they proceed? Food for thought.



*Howdy No,*

So the keystone of your position is that the “cheater” is a classic sociopathic behavioral personality? And if so, is this an explanation or a justification?

In either case (justified or not), I take it that your position is the condition is terminal with no real prospects for an honest reconciliation?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

when I grab a handful of oreos I usually don't think about getting fat until afterward

and then by the next time I grab another handful I'm not thinking about it again

instant gratification often leads to blissful ignorance

but it still is a choice you are making and a choice you are responsible for


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

badmemory said:


> I'd tend to believe that there are plenty of spouses who have similar thought processes, but refuse to cheat. That's where the morality and/or fear of consequences comes in to play. How one gets that morality, I think, is initially based on how you were raised. That's why I agree with you about the cycle of cheating from parents to children. That can't be underestimated.


Absolutely many do but their thought process goes one two, three... steps further and they stop the act. Some have religion and the fear of eternal damnation, some have the fear of the stigma of being a "cheater" but they all have another thought that stops them. That's my point, insufficient thought process.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Your statements seem to be predicated with the ideals that the WS is actually thinking about what they are doing and weighing the pro's and con's before making "educated" decisions. The fact of the matter is that they are doing it solely for personal satisfaction, the feeling of justification and self gratification, and selfishness. They are generally never thinking about the effects of their decisions and actions, as they have gotten themselves to the point that they either don't care about anyone else but themselves, are out to actually inflict pain upon another, or believe that they are entitled and the thoughts generally only go as far as this. Like has been aid lots of times they think they are so sly they are not going to get caught.


No, no Squeakr, their NOT weighing the pros and cons because they can't. I agree 100% with the rest.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> Yes, but even this data is faulty. Think about STDs, identity theft and plain old obsession. If the AP got so obsessed that they wanted you at any cost what might they do to the SO? Also, if they get into your private info they could steal your SO blind. These should also be considerations in the decision. It also speaks to the statement I made concerning how little regard our culture has for truth. We are so accepting of deceit and dishonesty that it has become a part of our society and even factors as a component in our decision making.


Other than believing they're not going to get caught, its like any other tort. You will have pressure/motivation, opportunity, and rationalization. You said, "Part of the decision process in lesser developed individuals, because of their tendency to think only of themselves." However, some of the same processes occur in major frauds and other "white collar" crimes where the perpetrator is of higher intelligence, social position, etc., (hence highly developed individuals) than average. I've said time and time again the motivation for most women is to recapture, with someone else, a lowered or lost romantic interest in their mate.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

SpinDaddy said:


> *Howdy No,*
> 
> So the keystone of your position is that the “cheater” is a classic sociopathic behavioral personality? And if so, is this an explanation or a justification?
> 
> In either case (justified or not), I take it that your position is the condition is terminal with no real prospects for an honest reconciliation?


Merely posited as an explanation. As for R, the consensus in the scientific community is that brain development ceases in the early twenties. What you have by then is all you're going to get. Therefore, additional growth can only be accomplished by "reprogramming" existing neural pathways to affect change, instead of building new ones. This process is much more difficult and, although possible, it requires a lot more time and effort. So, in answer to your question, I believe it is possible in some individuals but very unlikely because of the amount of setbacks and failures experienced. Most people just give up and move on.

ETA: Howdy


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Absolutely many do but their thought process goes one two, three... steps further and they stop the act. Some have religion and the fear of eternal damnation, some have the fear of the stigma of being a "cheater" but they all have another thought that stops them. That's my point, insufficient thought process.


You know OP, your post is interesting; but doing a psychological forensic analysis of the cause of cheating; I think, is beyond our capability. Were it not, there would be a reliable fix.

So I tend to think about it in more simplistic terms. Right vs. wrong, moral vs. immoral, honest vs. dishonest, selfish vs. benevolent. 

It's just easier that way.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Other than believing they're not going to get caught, its like any other tort. You will have pressure/motivation, opportunity, and rationalization. You said, "Part of the decision process in lesser developed individuals, because of their tendency to think only of themselves." However, some of the same processes occur in major frauds and other "white collar" crimes where the perpetrator is of higher intelligence, social position, etc., (hence highly developed individuals) than average. I've said time and time again the motivation for most women is to recapture, with someone else, a lowered or lost romantic interest in their mate.


Pheonix,
Higher social position, wealth and so forth is not indicative of someone's intelligence. There are people all around this globe that are in positions of seemingly high importance and stature who can barely tie their own shoes (slight exaggeration). Knowledge and information and the ability to store and retrieve same, is not an indicator of how that knowledge can/will be utilized. A lot of "intelligent" people have actually decided to give up the things you see as "highly developed".

Because someone is shrewd, cunning, ruthless and so on it doesn't mean they are intelligent. Their thought process in one area may excel but overall not so much. Like an idiot savant who can memorize the phone book. An amazing feat but not necessarily a sign of intelligence. Now if they were involved in advertising and mass mailings they would be superior to most at addressing envelopes but they cannot cross the street by themselves. What I am referring to is a more overall balanced thought process. Some call it common sense. It's not something you can learn but rather something that develops as a result of stimulus. That's why upbringing plays a critical role in this occurring.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

badmemory said:


> You know OP, your post is interesting; but doing a psychological forensic analysis of the cause of cheating; I think, is beyond our capability. Were it not, there would be a reliable fix.
> 
> So I tend to think about it in more simplistic terms. Right vs. wrong, moral vs. immoral, honest vs. dishonest, selfish vs. benevolent.
> 
> It's just easier that way.


I understand and I thank you. I merely wanted to offer an explanation, mainly to any BS who were considering R and struggling with the "why". I sincerely did not mean to overwhelm, merely to help them see another angle maybe, that's all.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> when I grab a handful of oreos I usually don't think about getting fat until afterward
> 
> and then by the next time I grab another handful I'm not thinking about it again
> 
> ...


Ahhh Almost but is a choice made in ignorance really a choice or conditioned response to self gratification?

Either way, yes, one has to be held accountable.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Ahhh Almost but is a choice made in ignorance really a choice or conditioned response to self gratification?
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, yes, one has to be held accountable.



Yes it is still a choice.


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