# Weak Men 🤦🏻‍♂️



## Mr.Married

Can someone help me understand? It would seem I am dumbfounded more and more as time goes by. Men come to this board in situations that are just too hard to comprehend. Is it nature, nurture, media, nasty moms, etc etc etc. 

Man card ..... revoked.


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## TJW

It is primarily the "industrial revolution" and a societal norm which makes the man the "breadwinner". Many of these men are not "weak", they just can't afford paying the bills for two households.

They choose the lesser of two evils.


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## Girl_power

What do you mean exactly by weak men?


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## Mr.Married

Girl_power said:


> What do you mean exactly by weak men?


Letting themselves be disrespected by others.
Having no boundaries that can’t be over run
No back bone
***** whipped into submission


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## Mr.Married

TJW said:


> It is primarily the "industrial revolution" and a societal norm which makes the man the "breadwinner". Many of these men are not "weak", they just can't afford paying the bills for two households.
> 
> They choose the lesser of two evils.


I’m sorry buddy but I don’t follow.

I’m talking about these guys that would be better off cutting off their manhood and tossing it from a bridge.


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## Cletus

Mr.Married said:


> Letting themselves be disrespected by others.


Never cared for this one myself. Anyone who requires enforcement of personal respect from another probably doesn't deserve it. Respect is earned. It cannot be manufactured nor taken where it does not already exist.

Every time I see one of those chest-thumping posts here, I urp a little.


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## Mr.Married

Cletus said:


> Never cared for thAnyone who requires enforcement of personal respect from another probably doesn't deserve it. Respect is earned.


yeah that’s what I mean 

Guy has to hide while wife is screwing other men

wife moves out to be with other man to try him out then he takes her back

Guy uncontrollably emotional about divorce after his wife has been running around for years

These stories go on and on .....


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## ConanHub

Not enough hard work, low T, ridiculous upbringing, etc...

You and I both know that many shenanigans wouldn't be contemplated against certain men, ever.


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## ConanHub

Cletus said:


> Never cared for this one myself. Anyone who requires enforcement of personal respect from another probably doesn't deserve it. Respect is earned. It cannot be manufactured nor taken where it does not already exist.
> 
> Every time I see one of those chest-thumping posts here, I urp a little.


I think he might be talking about actively disrespecting someone and not simply a lack of respect.


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## Cletus

ConanHub said:


> I think he might be talking about actively disrespecting someone and not simply a lack of respect.


You gonna walk up to someone, grab them by the collar, and say "Respect me or else?" 

You could do that, but it won't be respect you're getting.


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## Mr.Married

ConanHub said:


> Not enough hard work, low T, ridiculous upbringing, etc...
> 
> You and I both know that many shenanigans wouldn't be contemplated against certain men, ever.


I don’t know Conan ..... I suppose your right. It doesn’t register at all in my mind. I just can’t get my head wrapped around it. And the years.....years....it is allowed to continue?? I shake my head .... so hard to believe some of this stuff.

Perhaps I’m not the best with empathy or compassion.... or perhaps I’m just not a dumba$$


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## Mr.Married

Cletus said:


> You gonna walk up to someone, grab them by the collar, and say "Respect me or else?"
> 
> You could do that, but it won't be respect you're getting.
> 
> View attachment 70408


Totally not what I’m getting at. The south park thing was funny though...


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## ah_sorandy

Mr.Married said:


> Can someone help me understand? It would seem I am dumbfounded more and more as time goes by. Men come to this board in situations that are just too hard to comprehend. Is it nature, nurture, media, nasty moms, etc etc etc.
> 
> Man card ..... revoked.


Too much synthetic hormones in the drinking water!


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## Mr.Married

ah_sorandy said:


> Too much synthetic hormones in the drinking water!


Holy hell I will stop drinking water immediately!!!


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## ah_sorandy

Mr.Married said:


> Holy hell I will stop drinking water immediately!!!


You'll avoid getting man boobs!!!


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## ConanHub

Cletus said:


> You gonna walk up to someone, grab them by the collar, and say "Respect me or else?"
> 
> You could do that, but it won't be respect you're getting.
> 
> View attachment 70408


There is a difference in what you are illustrating and what is being discussed, I believe.


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## Numb26

ConanHub said:


> Not enough hard work, low T, ridiculous upbringing, etc...
> 
> You and I both know that many shenanigans wouldn't be contemplated against certain men, ever.


And of they were, they were dealt with quickly and correctly


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## Numb26

ConanHub said:


> There is a difference in what you are illustrating and what is being discussed, I believe.


You are correct.. Demanding respect and being disrespected are two completely different things.


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## Cletus

ConanHub said:


> There is a difference in what you are illustrating and what is being discussed, I believe.


Ok, what does it mean to you?

We have established that 'intimidate it out of you' isn't even possible.

"I refuse to associate with people who don't respect me, including my wife". Ok, that's one perhaps reasonable strategy.

Coupled with "I will live my life in a way that begets respect", while allowing people the opportunity to come to that understanding of you, is a path we all might agree is worthwhile for an upstanding man.

I see far too much "I deserve respect" simply as my birthright as sort of the good ol' boy notion of entitlement. The people I have found who are most deserving of my respect are the ones who never have to remind anyone that they both expect and deserve it. The ones crowing about it the most often don't.


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## ConanHub

Cletus said:


> Ok, what does it mean to you?
> 
> We have established that 'intimidate it out of you' isn't even possible.
> 
> "I refuse to associate with people who don't respect me, including my wife". Ok, that's one perhaps reasonable strategy.
> 
> Coupled with "I will live my life in a way that begets respect", while allowing people the opportunity to come to that understanding of you, is a path we all might agree is worthwhile for an upstanding man.
> 
> I see far too much "I deserve respect" simply as my birthright as sort of the good ol' boy notion of entitlement. The people I have found who are most deserving of my respect are the ones who never have to remind anyone that they both expect and deserve it. The ones crowing about it the most often don't.


I respect very few but I do not disrespect the many.

Just because someone hasn't achieved my respect doesn't mean I will ever disrespect them.

I go out of my way not to disrespect people.


Disrespect is sometimes earned but most of the time it isn't.

I think what Mr. Married is talking about is unearned disrespect which happens to pretty much everyone at some point in their lives.


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## Numb26

ConanHub said:


> I respect very few but I do not disrespect the many.
> 
> Just because someone hasn't achieved my respect doesn't mean I will ever disrespect them.
> 
> I go out of my way not to disrespect people.
> 
> 
> Disrespect is sometimes earned but most of the time it isn't.
> 
> I think what Mr. Married is talking about is unearned disrespect which happens to pretty much everyone at some point in their lives.


Unearned disrespect such as your spouse cheating. I don't think it is wrong to expect that kind of respect in a relationship.


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## Mr.Married

I guess I haven’t been quite clear. Let me try again.

How is it that some men can allow themselves to be disrespected by there spouse (or otherwise) in such obvious fashion?


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## Numb26

Mr.Married said:


> I guess I haven’t been quite clear. Let me try again.
> 
> How is it that some men can allow themselves to be disrespected by there spouse (or otherwise) in such obvious fashion?


You were clear on the point


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## Girl_power

Mr.Married said:


> I guess I haven’t been quite clear. Let me try again.
> 
> How is it that some men can allow themselves to be disrespected by there spouse (or otherwise) in such obvious fashion?


Because they clearly don’t view it as disrespect. Because they don’t believe they are worthy of respect. Because they are lazy, because they don’t respect themselves. Because they make excuses for what other people do so that means they don’t have to do anything.


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## Girl_power

Because it’s easier for them to go with the flow. Because they are scared of confrontation.


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## Girl_power

I meet so many men that are so easy going, so indecisive, don’t have a care on the world. They are not the leader in their own life. They do not control their destiny, they are victims of their circumstances, they think life happens.


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## BruceBanner

Mr.Married said:


> Can someone help me understand? It would seem I am dumbfounded more and more as time goes by. Men come to this board in situations that are just too hard to comprehend. Is it nature, nurture, media, nasty moms, etc etc etc.
> 
> Man card ..... revoked.


I wonder how many of these weak men were raised by single mothers or coddled by their mothers.


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## LisaDiane

BruceBanner said:


> I wonder how many of these weak men were raised by single mothers or coddled by their mothers.


Define "coddled"...


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## ConanHub

BruceBanner said:


> I wonder how many of these weak men were raised by single mothers or coddled by their mothers.


I think the coddling parent/s are more culpable.

Single mothers range in quality and can't be painted with a broad brush.

Fatherless households do suffer regardless.


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## minimalME

As do households with passive, uninvolved fathers.



ConanHub said:


> Fatherless households do suffer regardless.


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## ah_sorandy

LisaDiane said:


> Define "coddled"...


Cuddled except by a cod fish!


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## Mr.Married

Girl_power said:


> Because they are scared of confrontation.


Probably a lot of this right here. 
I still have a hard time understanding how someone can be THAT confrontation avoidant, but obviously it exists


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## ConanHub

minimalME said:


> As do households with passive, uninvolved fathers.


Statistics don't fib in this regard. You are correct but father's who literally aren't there represent the greatest contribution to dysfunctional kids.


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## minimalME

I was sharing more from experience.



ConanHub said:


> Statistics don't fib in this regard. You are correct but father's who literally aren't there represent the greatest contribution to dysfunctional kids.


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## Hiner112

It is a bit of a continuum and at certain times I had some of those "weak" qualities you describe. I think I can identify some of the origins and thought processes that led to some of those behaviors. This got _long_ but was cathartic for me even if no one ever reads it but me.

I'll start by saying that I was taught from an early age that physically assaulting a girl even in self defense was wrong. Starting in late elementary school I dealt with bullies of that persuasion. The kinds of harassment varied pretty widely but I'll give a short summary: getting kicked in the crotch and called ****less, spit on, called a wimp or ***** if any effect whatsoever of the harassment was ever noticed, told that no one would ever go to a dance with me even if I was the only boy going much less ever date me, explained that I wasn't _really_ a boy anyway, etc. It started as almost daily but tapered off a good bit by high school and by senior year had more or less stopped.

Some of the "normal" responses weren't acceptable. A fistfight with a girl was a fight I couldn't start. Going to an authority figure about being picked on would in many ways be admitting the weakness they were accusing me of. By the time the half way point of 5th grad had rolled around I had learned how to mentally and emotionally shutdown when ****ty things were happening so they didn't hurt quite as much and I didn't give the satisfaction of a reaction. Kicks to the crotch still hurt though.

All of that kind of went into my frame of reference. At the end of high school living and dying alone was the most likely outcome I could conceive of. I had been on a total of 4 dates spread between 3 girls that had asked me out. That they were asking me out should have been a clue that I wasn't nearly as hopeless as I felt but it takes a while to adjust. 

A couple years out of high school I was set up on a blind date with the woman that would become my wife. When I moved away to the University a year and a half later she moved in with me. A year after that she moved back home because I didn't have enough time while I was going to engineering school to pay attention to her. I'm relatively certain she went out on dates (or just went out and had sex) at this time though whenever I was in the area visiting my parents she'd invite me over for sex. In hindsight if she had found a competent or comparable sexual partner we probably would have stayed apart then. For me, it was sex that I didn't have to pursue (which I really didn't have time for), I still felt like this would potentially be the last relationship I would have, and even at her worst she didn't spit on or kick me so she was comparatively pleasant to be around. I cried on the phone with her a good bit and after she didn't find anyone better after looking for several months she moved back in.

From the inside that was how the woman moving out, dating around, and moving back in looked and felt like. We weren't married or even engaged and I was only 23-24 but I think in some ways the principle still stands.

The marriage was OK. I knew deep down that she was as much marrying the boxes I checked as she was marrying me. She admired the things I was accomplishing and was surprised that someone graduating with an engineering degree was interested in her. She could tout what I did as something to stroke her own ego. IE look who _I_ married. I considered this OK since, well, I never really stopped being a BAMF. I went from engineering school to Marines to a relatively high paying job. I never got out of shape. I was good with our children (often better than she was) and useful around the house. If she wanted to be married to a checklist, that would be fine because I would just naturally keep those boxes checked or give her something else to brag about. About 15 years into the relationship she basically decided that being married to a checklist wasn't good enough since she didn't really like the person it was attached to and I dealt with another period that was pretty ****ty before she pulled the plug 5 years later. I was "supporting her through a stressful time" and "being a supportive partner" on a steady diet of **** sandwiches.


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## Diceplayer

I've been reading Athol Kay's book, _The Married Man's Life Primer . _He calls it "the betaization of men." The premise is that men who just go with the flow and being nice guys in order to avoid conflict with their mates, are not giving their wife what she wants. His idea is that women in a marriage want to be led by their husbands and that when he hands over the lead (and his balls) to her because he believes he will avoid conflict by doing so, she loses respect for him because she is not getting what she wants.

In my very short time on this forum, I've seen this happening a lot. That's why I bought the book in order to try to understand it. So many men now were raised by single moms and had female teachers in school. They never had any role models to teach them how to be a man.


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## minimalME

This is in line with my experience. 

The highlighted - it's disingenuous behavior. A form of lying. Living a lie.

What's even more annoying is when these types of men turn around and blame the women for their (the men's) 'sacrifice'.



Diceplayer said:


> I've been reading Athol Kay's book, _The Married Man's Life Primer . _He calls it "the betaization of men." The premise is that *men who just go with the flow and being nice guys in order to avoid conflict with their mates*, are not giving their wife what she wants. His idea is that women in a marriage want to be led by their husbands and that when he hands over the lead (and his balls) to her because he believes he will avoid conflict by doing so, she loses respect for him because she is not getting what she wants.


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## BluesPower

Girl_power said:


> Because they clearly don’t view it as disrespect. Because they don’t believe they are worthy of respect. Because they are lazy, because they don’t respect themselves. Because they make excuses for what other people do so that means they don’t have to do anything.


All possibilities, but I really don't think so. (And No disrespect to you GP). 

It is fear. Some type of weakness and fear. 

Example, recent thread, man's wife, travels to conference, dates a rich doctor all weak, lots of evidence, and he does nothing. 

Years later he realizes he is a fool, and wonders, when it is obvious that she was banging him the whole time. 

This guy is too chicken **** to divorce her. 

WEAK MAN. Probably has been that way his whole life. Hides behind being "Civilized" but it is fear and weakness. 

It is disgusting and it happens all the time.


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## CatholicDad

My theory is men are such a shadow of their former selves.. like comparing a house dog to a wolf.

We don’t struggle to survive.. rather we retreat into hobbies, porn, self indulgence... just wrecks men.

Also moral relativism... without objective truth men have nothing to fight for. Our forefathers were willing to die for what they thought was right. Frankly, men need a strong belief in God to have any shot at becoming a “man”. Otherwise... something else or ourselves become our “God”.


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## Numb26

CatholicDad said:


> My theory is men are such a shadow of their former selves.. like comparing a house dog to a wolf.
> 
> We don’t struggle to survive.. rather we retreat into hobbies, porn, self indulgence... just wrecks men.
> 
> Also moral relativism... without objective truth men have nothing to fight for. Our forefathers were willing to die for what they thought was right. Frankly, men need a strong belief in God to have any shot at becoming a “man”. Otherwise... something else or ourselves become our “God”.


I see weak men as men who have either faced no adversity or ran from adversity. Not their fault really; single mother homes, public school systems, Hollywood and media have all aided in the emasculation and feminization of the American man.


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## Personal

CatholicDad said:


> Also moral relativism... without objective truth men have nothing to fight for. Our forefathers were willing to die for what they thought was right. Frankly, men need a strong belief in God to have any shot at becoming a “man”. Otherwise... something else or ourselves become our “God”.


I find it ironic that you make such assertions, while many young men continue to put their lives on the line and some lose them serving your nation, while you have never stepped up to take such responsibility yourself.


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## Laurentium

Mr.Married said:


> I still have a hard time understanding how someone can be THAT confrontation avoidant, but obviously it exists


My opinion, FWIW, is that often this stems from thinking if they lose their wife, they will never be able to replace her, that it will be literally disastrous. And that in turn stems from seeing the wife, unconsciously, as "mother". And instinct says that if a small child loses mother, they die. So they have an existential fear of losing their wife. 

Now, of course, all men will say "_But of course I don't think she's my mother_". No, consciously, you don't. But you act as if you do. And the women will tell you, "he treats me like I'm his mother" or "it's like having an extra child in the house". Women pick up the vibe. (In the cases we are talking about). And it's not sexy, not at all. So sometimes she strays. 

In the _No More Mr Nice Guy_ book, the author calls this being "monogamous to mother", but few readers "get" what he's talking about. I get a lot of them asking me about it. He thinks she's irreplaceable.


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## Mr.Married

Hiner112 said:


> It is a bit of a continuum and at certain times I had some of those "weak" qualities you describe. I think I can identify some of the origins and thought processes that led to some of those behaviors. This got _long_ but was cathartic for me even if no one ever reads it but me.
> 
> I'll start by saying that I was taught from an early age that physically assaulting a girl even in self defense was wrong. Starting in late elementary school I dealt with bullies of that persuasion. The kinds of harassment varied pretty widely but I'll give a short summary: getting kicked in the crotch and called *less, spit on, called a wimp or ** if any effect whatsoever of the harassment was ever noticed, told that no one would ever go to a dance with me even if I was the only boy going much less ever date me, explained that I wasn't _really_ a boy anyway, etc. It started as almost daily but tapered off a good bit by high school and by senior year had more or less stopped.
> 
> Some of the "normal" responses weren't acceptable. A fistfight with a girl was a fight I couldn't start. Going to an authority figure about being picked on would in many ways be admitting the weakness they were accusing me of. By the time the half way point of 5th grad had rolled around I had learned how to mentally and emotionally shutdown when ****ty things were happening so they didn't hurt quite as much and I didn't give the satisfaction of a reaction. Kicks to the crotch still hurt though.
> 
> All of that kind of went into my frame of reference. At the end of high school living and dying alone was the most likely outcome I could conceive of. I had been on a total of 4 dates spread between 3 girls that had asked me out. That they were asking me out should have been a clue that I wasn't nearly as hopeless as I felt but it takes a while to adjust.
> 
> A couple years out of high school I was set up on a blind date with the woman that would become my wife. When I moved away to the University a year and a half later she moved in with me. A year after that she moved back home because I didn't have enough time while I was going to engineering school to pay attention to her. I'm relatively certain she went out on dates (or just went out and had sex) at this time though whenever I was in the area visiting my parents she'd invite me over for sex. In hindsight if she had found a competent or comparable sexual partner we probably would have stayed apart then. For me, it was sex that I didn't have to pursue (which I really didn't have time for), I still felt like this would potentially be the last relationship I would have, and even at her worst she didn't spit on or kick me so she was comparatively pleasant to be around. I cried on the phone with her a good bit and after she didn't find anyone better after looking for several months she moved back in.
> 
> From the inside that was how the woman moving out, dating around, and moving back in looked and felt like. We weren't married or even engaged and I was only 23-24 but I think in some ways the principle still stands.
> 
> The marriage was OK. I knew deep down that she was as much marrying the boxes I checked as she was marrying me. She admired the things I was accomplishing and was surprised that someone graduating with an engineering degree was interested in her. She could tout what I did as something to stroke her own ego. IE look who _I_ married. I considered this OK since, well, I never really stopped being a BAMF. I went from engineering school to Marines to a relatively high paying job. I never got out of shape. I was good with our children (often better than she was) and useful around the house. If she wanted to be married to a checklist, that would be fine because I would just naturally keep those boxes checked or give her something else to brag about. About 15 years into the relationship she basically decided that being married to a checklist wasn't good enough since she didn't really like the person it was attached to and I dealt with another period that was pretty **ty before she pulled the plug 5 years later. I was "supporting her through a stressful time" and "being a supportive partner" on a steady diet of ** sandwiches.


Thank you for sharing that .... it took a lot of guts. If anything you have offered me the ability to catch a glimpse from the other side the fence. I appreciate it.


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## CatholicDad

Personal said:


> I find it ironic that you make such assertions, while many young men continue to put their lives on the line and some lose them serving your nation, while you have never stepped up to take such responsibility yourself.


I’m was rejected from the Marine Corps for Eczema or I probably would have.

My ideal of a good man isn’t necessarily a [email protected] war fighter... some of the best men I’ve known are just normal men, good fathers... that fear God and help and lead others to Him. The lives of the saints tell such tales. There’s actually only a limited amount of good that can be done from behind a rifle. I certainly respect the men that suffer to keep us free... they’re definitely wolves, not house dogs. I think without a belief in God those wolves can be a real danger.


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## BluesPower

Numb26 said:


> I see weak men as men who have either faced no adversity or ran from adversity. Not their fault really; single mother homes, public school systems, Hollywood and media have all aided in the emasculation and feminization of the American man.


Sorry brother, you know I love you, but NO WAY. 

You know or find out how to not touch a hot stove. Instinctively most people know that murder is wrong.

There are a thousand other things that we instinctively know are wrong. 

The things you listed are NO excuse for the way that men act today. NONE. 

I did not have a dad growing up, and I did not let society emasculate me? I am nothing special except the I am a man. I am proud of being a man. I love women, I think they are great, but I don't want to be one. 

No brother, if men these days are swayed by the above factors they were not Men to start out with.


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## Cletus

Laurentium said:


> My opinion, FWIW, is that often this stems from thinking if they lose their wife, they will never be able to replace her, that it will be literally disastrous. And that in turn stems from seeing the wife, unconsciously, as "mother". And instinct says that if a small child loses mother, they die. So they have an existential fear of losing their wife.


Hmm. Perhaps. I agree with the premise, but don't get all Freudian on the cause.

Maybe men have a sometimes accurate and sometimes inaccurate assessment of their attractiveness to the opposite sex, the ability to attract a new mate, and the effort involved.

Finding a wife is hard work, if done right (the attraction part is easy, but the are-we-compatible-for-decades-together is not). Doing it all over again might look like a mountain that isn't worth the climb. The bird in your bed might be worth the two with no bush (hey, it's 2020!), or something like that.


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## Numb26

BluesPower said:


> Sorry brother, you know I love you, but NO WAY.
> 
> You know or find out how to not touch a hot stove. Instinctively most people know that murder is wrong.
> 
> There are a thousand other things that we instinctively know are wrong.
> 
> The things you listed are NO excuse for the way that men act today. NONE.
> 
> I did not have a dad growing up, and I did not let society emasculate me? I am nothing special except the I am a man. I am proud of being a man. I love women, I think they are great, but I don't want to be one.
> 
> No brother, if men these days are swayed by the above factors they were not Men to start out with.


You are the exception, in my experience. Most men I know who had no strong male figure growing up to learn from, look up too, etc. have ended up having their "man card" taken. 

How many men have we seen on TAM that don't even have the self-respect, dignity and strength to get themselves out of the messed up situations they are in?


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## Personal

CatholicDad said:


> I think without a belief in God those wolves can be a real danger.


How so?

I mean one of my grandfathers was a hard working coal miner and truck driver most of his life, he was happily married for 63 years until his death. He cared for people, was generous, loved reading, gardening, friends, his children and his grandchildren etc. Plus like his father he went to war and served his country. Landing at the second hardest beach (Juno) at Normandy on D-Day 6 June 1944. That said for him D-Day was a trifling affair, versus his war around Caen and then the flooded fighting in Holland, followed by the horrors of the Battle of the Reichswald in 1945. Yet he was also an atheist, from when he was a teenager and remained one through to his death at the age of 90.

Although he was far from a shrinking violet, he wasn't a real danger either.


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## BluesPower

Numb26 said:


> You are the exception, in my experience. Most men I know who had no strong male figure growing up to learn from, look up too, etc. have ended up having their "man card" taken.
> 
> How many men have we seen on TAM that don't even have the self-respect, dignity and strength to get themselves out of the messed up situations they are in?


I am not saying that you are wrong. 

But you know that the guys that come to Infidelity sites are in shock at first. And a percentage of them wake up. And some never will. 

But look around at your group of male friends. How may 30 somethings are just wimps married to a hot wife that you know is screwing around on them. Yeah he is a big shot at the firm, but a ***** at home. 

Men that allow this are wasting their lives. 

I will never understand it...


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## BluesPower

Personal said:


> Although he was far from a shrinking violet, he wasn't a real danger either.


Problem with this is that, if he survived combat, he was a danger. He knew how to kill, probably had to kill many times.


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## Numb26

BluesPower said:


> I am not saying that you are wrong.
> 
> But you know that the guys that come to Infidelity sites are in shock at first. And a percentage of them wake up. And some never will.
> 
> But look around at your group of male friends. How may 30 somethings are just wimps married to a hot wife that you know is screwing around on them. Yeah he is a big shot at the firm, but a *** at home.
> 
> Men that allow this are wasting their lives.
> 
> I will never understand it...


Sometimes I feel like I am the strange one for how I handled my situation. Even my male friends tell me they can't believe I just divorced her that quick. Really?!?!? Was I supposed to stay? LOL


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## Mr.Married

minimalME said:


> The highlighted - it's disingenuous behavior. A form of lying. Living a lie.


That’s interesting.... I never thought of it like that but it does make sense. Good point!


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## BluesPower

Numb26 said:


> Sometimes I feel like I am the strange one for how I handled my situation. Even my male friends tell me they can't believe I just divorced her that quick. Really?!?!? Was I supposed to stay? LOL


No you handled it perfect. It is kind of odd that you had that clear of a head that early. That part was kind of odd, but you did great. 

But as I remember, you did not have a lot to work with either. 

I tried once when I was young, it was a disaster, never again, not for any woman I don't care who she is. 

And I'll tell you what else, what ever woman I am with, I have a fiancé so you know I hope to only be with her. 

But who ever, she does not even have to sleep with someone, just be shady and I am out. 

If I am not happy, you are gone, that is my motto. We make each other happy or we are not together, it is that simple...


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## Cletus

BluesPower said:


> If I am not happy, you are gone, that is my motto. We make each other happy or we are not together, it is that simple...


Then be prepared to walk. A lot.

Decades long marriages go through periods of unhappiness, sometimes with a villain, sometimes not. I hope your actual motto is "If I am not happy, we need to work on it with some patience and understanding, otherwise I'm gone".


----------



## Numb26

BluesPower said:


> No you handled it perfect. It is kind of odd that you had that clear of a head that early. That part was kind of odd, but you did great.
> 
> But as I remember, you did not have a lot to work with either.
> 
> I tried once when I was young, it was a disaster, never again, not for any woman I don't care who she is.
> 
> And I'll tell you what else, what ever woman I am with, I have a fiancé so you know I hope to only be with her.
> 
> But who ever, she does not even have to sleep with someone, just be shady and I am out.
> 
> If I am not happy, you are gone, that is my motto. We make each other happy or we are not together, it is that simple...


My head was definitely NOT clear. I was a mess but I knew that I could never "get past it" like she wanted me too. My biggest character flaw is I am loyal to a fault and I expect the same in the ones I love.

Funniest part is that she still sniffs around every once in awhile. I figuratively pat her on the head and send her on her way


----------



## BluesPower

Cletus said:


> Then be prepared to walk. A lot.
> 
> Decades long marriages go through periods of unhappiness, sometimes with a villain, sometimes not. I hope your actual motto is "If I am not happy, we need to work on it with some patience and understanding, otherwise I'm gone".


Yeah, been there done that... WALKED...

Got the T shirt... Happy as ****...

You see C, some of us live what we preach.


----------



## Girl_power

I just want to add that I don’t think this is a gender issue. Some women are super weak and allow themselves to be disrespected all the time.


----------



## Numb26

Girl_power said:


> I just want to add that I don’t think this is a gender issue. Some women are super weak and allow themselves to be disrespected all the time.


Absolutely! No bigger turn off for me then a weak woman.


----------



## Ikaika

BluesPower said:


> Problem with this is that, if he survived combat, he was a danger. He knew how to kill, probably had to kill many times.


I wish there was a dislike button, because this is simply not true and an oversimplification of individuals.


----------



## BluesPower

Ikaika said:


> I wish there was a dislike button, because this is simply not true and an oversimplification of individuals.


You can have all the buttons you want. When someone survives this stuff, they are special. 

And they deserve our respect. These MEN, that did what they did for us are MEN. (Unless of course they were woman, but that would be a different thread.)


----------



## Ikaika

BluesPower said:


> You can have all the buttons you want. When someone survives this stuff, they are special.
> 
> And they deserve our respect. These MEN, that did what they did for us are MEN. (Unless of course they were woman, but that would be a different thread.)


When people survive this they did their job, that is it.


----------



## BluesPower

Ikaika said:


> When people survive this they did their job, that is it.


You are entitled to your opinion. 

I guess you went though combat and don't fell special?

I think that is sad.


----------



## Ikaika

BluesPower said:


> You are entitled to your opinion.
> 
> I guess you went though combat and don't fell special?
> 
> I think that is sad.


Why would you say they are a danger to society?


----------



## Numb26

Ikaika said:


> When people survive this they did their job, that is it.


Speaking as someone who has been through combat I can assure you that it wasn't just "doing their job". It changes you and most times not for the better.


----------



## Ikaika

Numb26 said:


> Speaking as someone who has been through combat I can assure you that it wasn't just "doing their job". It changes you and most times not for the better.


So, you think you are a danger to society?


----------



## Numb26

Ikaika said:


> So, you think you are a danger to society?


No, moreso I was a danger to myself.


----------



## BluesPower

Ikaika said:


> Why would you say they are a danger to society?


You misunderstand. 

Not to society, just that they are not weak men. And frankly, in a fight, unless super old, they can be dangerous. 

I know a lot of younger vets, I am a big guy, I would never mess with them. Not that I would anyway.

I am not ever sure where you are coming from or why you are coming from where ever that is????


----------



## Ikaika

BluesPower said:


> You misunderstand.
> 
> Not to society, just that they are not weak men. And frankly, in a fight, unless super old, they can be dangerous.
> 
> I know a lot of younger vets, I am a big guy, I would never mess with them. Not that I would anyway.
> 
> I am not ever sure where you are coming from or why you are coming from where ever that is????





BluesPower said:


> *Problem* with this is that, if he survived combat, he was a danger. He knew how to kill, probably had to kill many times.


I read it as if it were a problem, so thank you for your clarification. Done, no need to talk about it anymore.


----------



## CatholicDad

I suppose a man can be an atheist and still have a strong sense of right versus wrong. I know of a good man who was a Vietnam vet and the hell of that war made him decide there could be no God that would allow such suffering. I think in some ways war can make men believe more firmly in right versus wrong- because they have experienced actual evil in this world. I think WWII vets especially can fall into this category. A belief in “right versus wrong” is actually an indirect belief in God. If there is no God then nothing is “right”.

I think a man that has no sense of right and wrong but has dealt death could be very dangerous.

There is no love stronger than a soldier risking his life for his buddy but again this is almost a belief in God or at least recognition that some things are more important than our mortal bodies... again a recognition in some way of God.


----------



## heartsbeating

Girl_power said:


> Because it’s easier for them to go with the flow. Because they are scared of confrontation.


I agree in part with this sentiment... but adding the word 'seem'... because it may _seem_ easier to go with the flow. In the long-run though, being agreeable in order to avoid negotiation and confrontation, no doubt brews resentment and inauthenticity. Whatever influences one to engage in that pattern, well, as adults there is a point where emotional growth can occur towards change if that is desired. I think for some, transforming to align goals and actions may feel 'hard' and combines with an element of fear. Whereas, the opposite requires work to develop skills, including assertiveness and resilience, in order to express oneself and become less agreeable. And all of that is a personal journey... starting points could be therapy, (maybe TAM..!), surrounding oneself with mentors; but really, at the crux of it is putting in the work and developing a solid base of what one is about - with the behavior to match that; taking responsibility to let go of aspects of self that are no longer needed or wanted. It takes balls to step into the unfamiliar towards lasting change.


----------



## heartsbeating

There are members here who have stepped to a different beat for themselves... perhaps not 'weak' before this... but through their stories it becomes evident they have developed a greater sense of self; not easily swayed, open to feedback, and know what they are about and secure within themselves. I won't call out member names, but certainly there are experiences of personal growth and progress shared.


----------



## heartsbeating

Mr.Married said:


> Probably a lot of this right here.
> I still have a hard time understanding how someone can be THAT confrontation avoidant, but obviously it exists


I'll admit that I do find the 'how' to be interesting... but less so than what someone does about it.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Cletus said:


> You gonna walk up to someone, grab them by the collar, and say "Respect me or else?"
> 
> You could do that, but it won't be respect you're getting.
> 
> View attachment 70408


Its about not tolerating BS from your spouse.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Girl_power said:


> I meet so many men that are so easy going, so indecisive, don’t have a care on the world. They are not the leader in their own life. They do not control their destiny, they are victims of their circumstances, they think life happens.


Used to be this way. Wife was pushing and pushing to try to get me to stand my ground. I took all i could until i reached my breaking point and started shutting down the crap. She has changed because i changed. Marriage is best it has ever been. I am the man of the house and not the male of the house. Took a few years to break what was instilled in me by seeing my parents marriage.


----------



## Girl_power

Divinely Favored said:


> Used to be this way. Wife was pushing and pushing to try to get me to stand my ground. I took all i could until i reached my breaking point and started shutting down the crap. She has changed because i changed. Marriage is best it has ever been. I am the man of the house and not the male of the house. Took a few years to break what was instilled in me by seeing my parents marriage.


Why did you need to be pushed to stand your ground?


----------



## Girl_power

So how do we raise kids to become strong men?


----------



## jorgegene

try to be an example to them.

now there are many examples of strong men. i don't necessarily subscribe to the macho version, although i think a man should be macho to a degree..
if i were to think of a role model it would be atticus finch. now he was a book/movie character but embodied all the features of a strong man. unitimidated by evil, strong, but not necessarily physical.
truthful, and morally upright. he stood tall. that's a strong man to me. 

but one caviat: if you try to be like someone else it doesn't work. be yourself, but recognize people and role models that are righteous and walk tall. then ply your own path.
speaking of walking tall, buford pusser was a heck of a guy too.


----------



## jorgegene

see atticus finch, when confronted with a racist goon that spit in his face and threatened him, didn't start swinging. he stood ramrod straight and stared down the goon letting him now he would not be intimidated.

wow.


----------



## Girl_power

jorgegene said:


> try to be an example to them.
> 
> now there are many examples of strong men. i don't necessarily subscribe to the macho version, although i think a man should be macho to a degree..
> if i were to think of a role model it would be atticus finch. now he was a book/movie character but embodied all the features of a strong man. unitimidated by evil, strong, but not necessarily physical.
> truthful, and morally upright. he stood tall. that's a strong man to me.
> 
> but one caviat: if you try to be like someone else it doesn't work. be yourself, but recognize people and role models that are righteous and walk tall. then ply your own path.
> speaking of walking tall, buford pusser was a heck of a guy too.


Ahh I agree with you so much! I love Atticus!! 

I always thought the Huxbables from the Cosby show were the perfect example of husband and wife.


----------



## Girl_power

jorgegene said:


> see atticus finch, when confronted with a racist goon that spit in his face and threatened him, didn't start swinging. he stood ramrod straight and stared down the goon letting him now he would not be intimidated.
> 
> wow.


Yes!! There is nothing more respectable than a strong moral man that doesn’t stoop to violence, or bigotry, or even insults!! A man that stands up for what he believes in without being combative or confrontational.


----------



## Mr.Married

Girl_power said:


> So how do we raise kids to become strong men?


I wasn’t going to be a replay of my parents marriage. I knew that from a very early age.


----------



## Girl_power

Mr.Married said:


> I wasn’t going to be a replay of my parents marriage. I knew that from a very early age.


I personally find that many people learn good lessons from their parents in marriages they don’t want.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Girl_power said:


> So how do we raise kids to become strong men?


By showing them a strong woman. That’s how this single mother of two boys did it. It worked. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Numb26

Girl_power said:


> So how do we raise kids to become strong men?


Maybe start by getting the media, Hollywood, the school systems to stop teaching our kids that masculinity is evil.


----------



## minimalME

Writers often portray men as incompetent - especially dads and husbands. That's no good.



Numb26 said:


> Maybe start by getting the media, Hollywood, the school systems to stop teaching our kids that masculinity is evil.


----------



## Ikaika

Girl_power said:


> I personally find that many people learn good lessons from their parents in marriages they don’t want.


I don’t know, my dad was an asshole, I too am an asshole.


----------



## Girl_power

Ikaika said:


> I don’t know, my dad was an asshole, I too am an asshole.


Why are you an asshole?


----------



## Ikaika

Girl_power said:


> Why are you an asshole?


I just am... but I try not to be.


----------



## minimalME

You have lots of self control. I've never seen you lash out in any way when people here are unkind to you.



Ikaika said:


> I just am... but I try not to be.


----------



## heartsbeating

I just felt this thread deserved a bit of Rocky


----------



## Divinely Favored

Girl_power said:


> Why did you need to be pushed to stand your ground?


Nice guy to fault. Passive personality.


Mr.Married said:


> I wasn’t going to be a replay of my parents marriage. I knew that from a very early age.


You and i both. The crap i saw my dad tolerate from my mom. Many times wished he would have slapped her with divorce papers. She had a razor blade tongue. Problem was he helped create the monster because he had become soo passive he would always agree and not go against her.

My wife used to say i was a different person around my mom and would shut down socially. Very little communication. Just chose to limit my interaction with her. 
She was trying to be better the last year so i gave her credit for trying before dad died Mar 2019 of heart attack. Now she has alot of regrets. My sister who lives 80 miles further away than me sees her 2x as much as i do.


----------



## Sbrown

I grew up with a mom that was married 4 times before I graduated HS. It was and is always the same for her, if only the men would have done more to make her happy she would have stayed. So.... for my first two marriages thats what I did, chased them around trying to make them happy, and when the disrespect got to be too much for me I blew up. Then I'm the one with anger issues. 

After my last D, I was speaking to one of my mentors. I told him "I tried so hard to make her happy." He told me "Son, it ain't your job to make them happy." This hit me hard.


----------



## LisaDiane

Hiner112 said:


> It is a bit of a continuum and at certain times I had some of those "weak" qualities you describe. I think I can identify some of the origins and thought processes that led to some of those behaviors. This got _long_ but was cathartic for me even if no one ever reads it but me.
> 
> I'll start by saying that I was taught from an early age that physically assaulting a girl even in self defense was wrong. Starting in late elementary school I dealt with bullies of that persuasion. The kinds of harassment varied pretty widely but I'll give a short summary: getting kicked in the crotch and called *less, spit on, called a wimp or ** if any effect whatsoever of the harassment was ever noticed, told that no one would ever go to a dance with me even if I was the only boy going much less ever date me, explained that I wasn't _really_ a boy anyway, etc. It started as almost daily but tapered off a good bit by high school and by senior year had more or less stopped.
> 
> Some of the "normal" responses weren't acceptable. A fistfight with a girl was a fight I couldn't start. Going to an authority figure about being picked on would in many ways be admitting the weakness they were accusing me of. By the time the half way point of 5th grad had rolled around I had learned how to mentally and emotionally shutdown when ****ty things were happening so they didn't hurt quite as much and I didn't give the satisfaction of a reaction. Kicks to the crotch still hurt though.
> 
> All of that kind of went into my frame of reference. At the end of high school living and dying alone was the most likely outcome I could conceive of. I had been on a total of 4 dates spread between 3 girls that had asked me out. That they were asking me out should have been a clue that I wasn't nearly as hopeless as I felt but it takes a while to adjust.
> 
> A couple years out of high school I was set up on a blind date with the woman that would become my wife. When I moved away to the University a year and a half later she moved in with me. A year after that she moved back home because I didn't have enough time while I was going to engineering school to pay attention to her. I'm relatively certain she went out on dates (or just went out and had sex) at this time though whenever I was in the area visiting my parents she'd invite me over for sex. In hindsight if she had found a competent or comparable sexual partner we probably would have stayed apart then. For me, it was sex that I didn't have to pursue (which I really didn't have time for), I still felt like this would potentially be the last relationship I would have, and even at her worst she didn't spit on or kick me so she was comparatively pleasant to be around. I cried on the phone with her a good bit and after she didn't find anyone better after looking for several months she moved back in.
> 
> From the inside that was how the woman moving out, dating around, and moving back in looked and felt like. We weren't married or even engaged and I was only 23-24 but I think in some ways the principle still stands.
> 
> The marriage was OK. I knew deep down that she was as much marrying the boxes I checked as she was marrying me. She admired the things I was accomplishing and was surprised that someone graduating with an engineering degree was interested in her. She could tout what I did as something to stroke her own ego. IE look who _I_ married. I considered this OK since, well, I never really stopped being a BAMF. I went from engineering school to Marines to a relatively high paying job. I never got out of shape. I was good with our children (often better than she was) and useful around the house. If she wanted to be married to a checklist, that would be fine because I would just naturally keep those boxes checked or give her something else to brag about. About 15 years into the relationship she basically decided that being married to a checklist wasn't good enough since she didn't really like the person it was attached to and I dealt with another period that was pretty **ty before she pulled the plug 5 years later. I was "supporting her through a stressful time" and "being a supportive partner" on a steady diet of ** sandwiches.


It am always astounded at how devastating bullying in school can be even into adulthood. 
I think what you went through is HORRIBLE and never should have been allowed to happen...!!


----------



## LisaDiane

Cletus said:


> The bird in your bed might be worth the two with no bush (hey, it's 2020!), or something like that.


Lol!!! YUCK!


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Respect does have to be earned. I'm mystified how some of them end up with spouses to begin with, but I know one reason - - too many women, especially young ones, just assume they can make them change.


----------



## BluesPower

LisaDiane said:


> It am always astounded at how devastating bullying in school can be even into adulthood.
> I think what you went through is HORRIBLE and never should have been allowed to happen...!!


There is a way to handle this. I know it is horrible. 

My middle boy had someone try and bully him the first day of 7th grade, He stomped the kid then and there. Everyone saw it, and he never EVER had another problem with bullying ever.


----------



## Cletus

BluesPower said:


> There is a way to handle this. I know it is horrible.
> 
> My middle boy had someone try and bully him the first day of 7th grade, He stomped the kid then and there. Everyone saw it, and he never EVER had another problem with bullying ever.


My experience as well. You don't love a bully out of his behavior, you don't talk him out of it, and you won't get the opportunity to ignore it. Only one thing works.


----------



## LisaDiane

BluesPower said:


> There is a way to handle this. I know it is horrible.
> 
> My middle boy had someone try and bully him the first day of 7th grade, He stomped the kid then and there. Everyone saw it, and he never EVER had another problem with bullying ever.


YES...most bullies are weak inside, so go after other children they perceive as easy targets. I also believe that adults have an undeniable obligation to STOP bullying in EVERY instance - but they rarely do, and it makes me angry.


----------



## CatholicDad

Girl_power said:


> So how do we raise kids to become strong men?


Religion, discipline, love.... and shield them from our sick culture through their formative years.


----------



## Ikaika

CatholicDad said:


> Religion, discipline, love.... and shield them from our sick culture through their formative years.


I would disagree that shielding people makes anyone stronger. You want to raise a person to be a responsible, compassionate, humble and yet a confident adult. Discipline has to be weighed along with security and love. Exacting discipline without providing security and love, is cruelty. 

without these traits of responsibility, compassion, humility and confidence there is no strength in the way society needs that person to be. 

Religious beliefs is a personal preference, neutral - not good or bad.


----------



## CatholicDad

Ikaika said:


> Not sure that is practical to shield kids from the internet. Rather than shielding, I find it better to model good behavior and actions.
> 
> I am sure that Christianity provides the tenets of love, humility and compassion, but atheist also teach these qualities.


You must filter the filth or kids will be exposed to things they aren’t ready for... very damaging.


----------



## Mr.Married

Yeah my neighbor 2 doors down tried some of that. They home schooled and shielded there kids from “violent” TV. Internet wasn’t allowed except for schooling purposes. When the wife finally had to get a job to support their lifestyle the kids had to go to real school. All 4 of the kids constantly got their ads kicked. What a disaster


----------



## CatholicDad

Mr.Married said:


> Yeah my neighbor 2 doors down tried some of that. They home schooled and shielded there kids from “violent” TV. Internet wasn’t allowed except for schooling purposes. When the wife finally had to get a job to support their lifestyle the kids had to go to real school. All 4 of the kids constantly got their ads kicked. What a disaster


Well, you have to protect kids within reason. I knew a pretty tough kid that had no TV in his home so he spent all of his time playing sports and outdoors. Violent TV watching isn’t what will make someone tough...


----------



## heartsbeating

BluesPower said:


> There is a way to handle this. I know it is horrible.
> 
> My middle boy had someone try and bully him the first day of 7th grade, He stomped the kid then and there. Everyone saw it, and he never EVER had another problem with bullying ever.


I don't have kids.. but I've been one! And remember being aged 10 or 11, and when the class was let out for break, this boy suddenly came up and started punching me in the arm. In my mind I was, 'OUCH and WTF?!'. Next day, sure enough, he came up again and went in for the punch. I grabbed his arm/wrist and twisted it behind his back. He begged for me to let go. I told him not to ever touch me again. He didn't. I do remember going home and telling my brother (who is older) and him just losing it with laughter, saying the boy probably had a crush on me. Yeah well, that ain't my problem, gov.


----------



## LisaDiane

Mr.Married said:


> Yeah my neighbor 2 doors down tried some of that. They home schooled and shielded there kids from “violent” TV. Internet wasn’t allowed except for schooling purposes. When the wife finally had to get a job to support their lifestyle the kids had to go to real school. All 4 of the kids constantly got their ads kicked. What a disaster


This doesn't make much sense...she had to get a job to support their lifestyle...?? And are you saying the kids being shielded from those things CAUSED their bullying...? You can't mean that, because that doesn't make sense either...

WHAT are you saying with this comment...?? Lol!


----------



## Mr.Married

LisaDiane said:


> This doesn't make much sense...she had to get a job to support their lifestyle...?? And are you saying the kids being shielded from those things CAUSED their bullying...? You can't mean that, because that doesn't make sense either...
> 
> WHAT are you saying with this comment...?? Lol!


Sorry about that ... let me try again.
The wife had to get a job because they were starting to spend too much money on stuff. The kids were no longer homeschooled because she had to go to work. The children even though very polite and well behaved did not fit in well at school. They were the subject of constant torture.


----------



## 2&out

Some interesting reading. The catholic school kids where I grew up and raised my kids were the bad/troublemaking kids - many were there because they were kicked out of the public school. I couldn't disagree more about shielding kids from the internet and realities of life. They need to be taught how to deal with it - not ignore or avoid it or pretend it doesn't exist.

My experience with home schooled kids is too many of them have poor communication and coping skills because they haven't had to develop them in a variety of circumstances. IMO it makes them more prone to bullying as they are easier targets and the success rate to bully is higher. Standing up and defending oneself thru a variety of tactics/options without help IMO is an extremely important life skill.


----------



## Sbrown

Their coping and communication skills has nothing to do with homeschooling and everything to do with who they are and their parents. Going to public schools, im sure we all knew the awkward kid and the kids the bullies picked on, from kindergarten up, i know I did.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Now there's Covid, but under normal conditions, if you're going to homeschool, you need to put just as much effort into socialing kids with a mix of kids in some activities so they are ready for the diversity. Even then, nearly ever kid gets some bullying in middle school, from what I have seen. But that's a part of life. It's much better to learn those skills how to cope with people as a child while you're still very adaptable than to run into it at their first job and just fail utterly.


----------



## LisaDiane

2&out said:


> My experience with home schooled kids is too many of them have poor communication and coping skills because they haven't had to develop them in a variety of circumstances. IMO it makes them more prone to bullying as they are easier targets and the success rate to bully is higher. Standing up and defending oneself thru a variety of tactics/options without help IMO is an extremely important life skill.


How many homeschooled kids have you spent time with...? I'm really asking.

From what I've seen, public schooled kids who have mental disorders and poor coping skills (and don't even get me started on poor communication skills with the high schoolers) make up a MUCH higher percentage than homeschooled kids...but then Public School is never blamed for those problems, probably because it's considered "normal" to go to public school, so how could it have any negative affects?


----------



## Cletus

LisaDiane said:


> How many homeschooled kids have you spent time with...? I'm really asking.
> 
> From what I've seen, public schooled kids who have mental disorders and poor coping skills (and don't even get me started on poor communication skills with the high schoolers) make up a MUCH higher percentage than homeschooled kids...but then Public School is never blamed for those problems, probably because it's considered "normal" to go to public school, so how could it have any negative affects?


Careful with attributions of causality. Public schools have to take all comers. They're an actual random sampling of society, and almost certainly not the cause.

Homeschooled children are not. They are a group almost by definition taken from parents with an above average interest in some aspect of their education.


----------



## 2&out

LisaDiane said:


> How many homeschooled kids have you spent time with...? I'm really asking.
> 
> From what I've seen, public schooled kids who have mental disorders and poor coping skills (and don't even get me started on poor communication skills with the high schoolers) make up a MUCH higher percentage than homeschooled kids...but then Public School is never blamed for those problems, probably because it's considered "normal" to go to public school, so how could it have any negative affects?


A few but I admit not hundreds. Both my kids befriended a couple when in college to help navigate the system. Most my experience is adult ones. I have a different way than I think most of interviewing and hiring. After being vetted by HR I have them set up an interview. I don't read/review their resumes. After the interview I read them - sometimes just to see if my hunch was correct. I seem to be able to pick out home schooled people at least 3 out of 5 times. It isn't necessarily bad - but my experience is they tend not to be as confident aggressive go getters. My sampling and experience on this likely has no relation to reality - but it is what it is.


----------



## hinterdir

Mr.Married said:


> Sorry about that ... let me try again.
> The wife had to get a job because they were starting to spend too much money on stuff. The kids were no longer homeschooled because she had to go to work. The children even though very polite and well behaved did not fit in well at school. They were the subject of constant torture.


Thanks for the FYI.
That stuff happens regardless so...no direct correlation to HS and getting picked on. They may very well have been picked on if they'd been in school all their lives.
AND this is a micro situation. 
The situation of ONE family is not any bearing in any way on the entire MACRO category of all kids home schooling.

Thanks for the FYI though.


----------



## hinterdir

hinterdir said:


> Thanks for the FYI.
> That stuff happens regardless so...no direct correlation to HS and getting picked on. They may very well have been picked on if they'd been in school all their lives. No way one can say bullying was caused because of a home schooling background.
> AND this is a micro situation.
> The situation of ONE family is not any bearing in any way on the entire MACRO category of all kids home schooling.
> 
> Thanks for the FYI though.


----------



## WandaJ

Mr.Married said:


> Letting themselves be disrespected by others.
> Having no boundaries that can’t be over run
> No back bone
> ***** whipped into submission


Women are in exactly the same position, disrespected, dismissed, yelled at, lied to. It is the same for both genders. That’s why TAM exists.


----------



## TX-SC

Since this is posted in Long Term Success in Marriage, I assume that you are asking about specifically men in long term relationships who are disrespected by their spouse? I suspect that it really goes both ways, unless this is a thinly veiled Red Pill type of post? If not, then I would say that both sexes are certainly capable of being disrespected. I have a female friend in Ireland who's husband physically beats her. He broke two of her toes and knocked a tooth out a few weeks ago. I would call that disrespect!

There is a wide range of personality types in men, just as with women. Some are aggressive, some are more passive, and some are very passive. I don't think it makes them any less of a "man" to be passive, but it certainly opens up the possibility that they will be abused. I think all people should stand up for themselves. Unfortunately, some personalities are conflict avoidant and they will do what they can to not argue or fight.

Successful marriages can take many forms, from polyamory to monogamy, from patriarchal to matriarchal and everything in between. It doesn't make them inherently right or wrong. It just makes them unique. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Rob_1

TX-SC said:


> Successful marriages can take many forms, from polyamory to monogamy, from patriarchal to matriarchal and everything in between. It doesn't make them inherently right or wrong. It just makes them unique.


from a biological/anthropological point of view there's nothing unique to it. It's been happening since the beginning of mankind. _**** sapiens_ in their cultural evolution as part of the primate family are highly social as a species; which have led them depending on their physical environment to develop adaptation to many forms of cohabitation/mating to make sure the progeny makes it alive to procreation age, basically. Paradoxically, this is also in contradiction to the one tenet of all of biology gene's expression. Whether you accept it or not all living things are nothing but vessels for genes to transfer from one generation to another in order to continue (genes were first,individuals later at the onset of live on earth). So as an example: when you have two men living with one woman, you might have a successful living relationship that might ensure taking better care of any progeny, but the caveat is that for both males the rate of success for transferring their genes is gone to chance. One or the other might lose. All of this in the typical as nature intended scenario, of course; but, modern science has skewed the results, just so as many other things for humans, like human interfering with the survival of progeny that shouldn't from a biological perspective never to reach procreation age, so as to not pass on those genes. 

It saddens me, for example when I see individuals that knowingly get involved with an individual that suffers from all sort of mental issues, then start to procreate with that individual. Don't they think about what they are doing is making sure that whatever the genetic problem that individual has, it will most likely be transferred to the progeny. Why are they risking that?


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## Girl_power

Rob_1 said:


> It saddens me, for example when I see individuals that knowingly get involved with an individual that suffers from all sort of mental issues, then start to procreate with that individual. Don't they think about what they are doing is making sure that whatever the genetic problem that individual has, it will most likely be transferred to the progeny. Why are they risking that?


Oh boy. If people think their partners mental issues are things that are wrong and things that should be cured, then your right maybe they should think twice about procreating.

So I have a “personality disorder”. But I will tell you this isnt a disorder. There is nothing WRONG with me, nothing that needs to be fixed or cured. That’s offensive. I love the quirks that make me me, and hopefully my partner does to and won’t be disappointed if we have a child like me.


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## Rob_1

Girl_power said:


> That’s offensive. I


Have you ever been in a relationship with a psychopath? A manic? A person with split personalities? Etc., they don't think that there's anything wrong with them. 
And what about my post is offensive? Did I attack you? 

For your information most, and I mean most people in this world are selective. Take your pick of what selective trait (s) people pick. We all humans do it. It's natural. It is what it is, so please don't come to me with hypocritical statements like: it's offensive. You do it too. When you pick a partner you are being selective at the expense of other suitors.


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## pastasauce79

CatholicDad said:


> REDACTED


I grew up in a mostly conservative society. I went to Catholic school my whole life, including Catholic University. Growing up I was one of the few girls who wasn't completely shielded from modern society. I knew how to drive stick shift when I was 14! My dad taught me since I was a child.

I remember clearly how "shielded" Catholic girls went absolutely wild as soon as they got a little bit of freedom. They got drunk, they smoked, they lied, they dated in secret and some got pregnant too.

From my experience, shielding kids from reality is not a good idea. They don't live in a bubble. They are going to learn things from friends or strangers. I'd rather them learning them from parents.There's a time and place to talk freely to our children. And we definitely need to be involved in their lives to know what they are watching, or searching online.
We can teach love, humility, and compassion without having a religious belief.

These are different times and we need to be on top of things. Kids are not dumb so we can be honest with them.


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## Girl_power

Rob_1 said:


> Have you ever been in a relationship with a psychopath? A manic? A person with split personalities? Etc., they don't think that there's anything wrong with them.
> And what about my post is offensive? Did I attack you?
> 
> For your information most, and I mean most people in this world are selective. Take your pick of what selective trait (s) people pick. We all humans do it. It's natural. It is what it is, so please don't come to me with hypocritical statements like: it's offensive. You do it too. When you pick a partner you are being selective at the expense of other suitors.


It’s offensive to me if someone thinks there is something wrong with me and I need to be fixed. I hope that everyone would be offended if their partner believed this about them. 

Yes we are all selective. And if I choose x trait and try the avoid y trait that’s ok, doesn’t mean it’s not offensive to the person with y trait. 

After all, you could be the juiciest yummy eat peach in the world and you will still find someone who doesn’t like peaches.


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## CatholicDad

pastasauce79 said:


> I grew up in a mostly conservative society. I went to Catholic school my whole life, including Catholic University. Growing up I was one of the few girls who wasn't completely shielded from modern society. I knew how to drive stick shift when I was 14! My dad taught me since I was a child.
> 
> I remember clearly how "shielded" Catholic girls went absolutely wild as soon as they got a little bit of freedom. They got drunk, they smoked, they lied, they dated in secret and some got pregnant too.
> 
> From my experience, shielding kids from reality is not a good idea. They don't live in a bubble. They are going to learn things from friends or strangers. I'd rather them learning them from parents.There's a time and place to talk freely to our children. And we definitely need to be involved in their lives to know what they are watching, or searching online.
> We can teach love, humility, and compassion without having a religious belief.
> 
> These are different times and we need to be on top of things. Kids are not dumb so we can be honest with them.


I totally agree except love, humility, and compassion if taught without religion merely become “good ideas”.

A young man who uses porn all day may be loving, humble, and compassionate as a person but is still a sick scumbag that I wouldn’t want marrying my daughter. I think sins like this really do eat away at a man’s soul. Without religion all these secret sins are permitted and hence we now have a full fledged porn and human trafficking epidemic that no one is talking about. My theory is that young people get so conditioned that sex is purely entertainment (via porn) and they eventually are so desensitized they have no problem “using” someone solely for their sexual pleasure... and here we are with pedophilia nearly becoming mainstream and children being trafficked. Only Godless SOBs could participate or allow this.

In sum, we need to teach our sons that there is God’s judgement at the end and it is worth laying down our life for... virtue is more than just a good idea. Belief in God is what makes a man strong. I hope you will return to the one true faith despite the imperfect people around you. Truth is still truth, regardless. Acknowledging virtue is acknowledging God’s presence in the world.


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## TX-SC

CatholicDad said:


> I totally agree except love, humility, and compassion if taught without religion merely become “good ideas”.
> 
> A young man who uses porn all day may be loving, humble, and compassionate as a person but is still a sick scumbag that I wouldn’t want marrying my daughter. I think sins like this really do eat away at a man’s soul. Without religion all these secret sins are permitted and hence we now have a full fledged porn and human trafficking epidemic that no one is talking about. My theory is that young people get so conditioned that sex is purely entertainment (via porn) and they eventually are so desensitized they have no problem “using” someone solely for their sexual pleasure... and here we are with pedophilia nearly becoming mainstream and children being trafficked. Only Godless SOBs could participate or allow this.
> 
> In sum, we need to teach our sons that there is God’s judgement at the end and it is worth laying down our life for... virtue is more than just a good idea. Belief in God is what makes a man strong. I hope you will return to the one true faith despite the imperfect people around you. Truth is still truth, regardless. Acknowledging virtue is acknowledging God’s presence in the world.


Some issues with this...

First off, the concept of sex trafficking is not new to the internet. Neither is porn. In the1970s, my father, who was a dedicated Pentacostal, had a stack of Penthouse and Hustler mags that was truly phenomenal.

Another issue with your reasoning is that good people have to believe in God or they can't be good people. I think that not only are there some great nonreligious people it out there, but so too are there great people of religions that do not focus on a god per se.

Lastly, some of the worst people I have ever known were Christian. It's the nature of humanity that there are good and there are bad in any group. Any argument to the contrary fails to see any of the atrocities committed by religious people through the ages. 

But this is not an argument for or against religion, only that humans are humans. Some are good and some are not.


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## minimalME

And it's not just via porn - it's mainstream TV, movies, music, magazines and advertising.

Our young children don't have to look at pornography to be exposed, because sex is everywhere.

I walked into the house one day after doing errands, and my children were all in front of the TV watching a sex scene, with my Christian husband sitting nearby, not paying any attention - and later informing me that he wasn't going to 'police' them. 🙄

So, yes - children are most certainly growing up desensitized - thinking/believing it's all just fine.



CatholicDad said:


> My theory is that young people get so conditioned that sex is purely entertainment (via porn) and they eventually are so desensitized they have no problem “using” someone solely for their sexual pleasure...


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## TX-SC

This is such a strange argument. If a woman and a man have sex before marriage how is it "using someone for their gratification" and why is this specifically being played off as a male thing? Assuming it is two consenting individuals, I have a hard time going straight to "using"?


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## CatholicDad

It’s naive to believe that religion and especially Christianity hasn’t significantly improved the lives of millions or billions of people. 

I’m pretty sure the “weak men” crisis is either a cause or effect of the abandonment of Christianity and religion.

It’s ironic that the Portland protesters are now burning bibles... isn’t that the epitome of weak men- out destroying things in the name of making things better. Sounds more like a two year old child’s temper tantrum.


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## CatholicDad

I’d encourage others to get informed about sex trafficking. The main stream media doesn’t talk about it. Sure it’s always been a problem but seems like it’s much more widespread. World leaders and powerful billionaires are in on it... not just lowlifes on the street corner.

I didn’t argue that everyone uses each other for sex but that there seems to be a push for unfettered sexual gratification regardless of who gets hurt- it’s just evil and disgusting if you ask me.

Weak men use others for sex. Strong men love one woman, commit themselves to her, and accept God’s gift of children. I don’t see the secular world pushing these ideas.


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## pastasauce79

CatholicDad said:


> I totally agree except love, humility, and compassion if taught without religion merely become “good ideas”.


Don't we need more people with "good ideas" now a days?

We also need people with good hearts, good thoughts, good intentions, and good actions. 

And since when unreligious people can't be good? 

My dislike of religion came from religious individuals who judged, labeled, and segregated other people. That's exactly what Jesus didn't do (from what remember from school.)

I think it's pretty admirable to know people who have a moral compass that is not attached to any specific religion. Their love and support is truly unconditional. 

I don't know what kind of non religious people you've been around, but I don't know anyone who is not religious and is a porn loving human trafficker. This view is kinda extremist and scary. 

If religion makes you a strong man then good for you! But you cannot generalize and say non religious men cannot be strong because that's not true.


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## TX-SC

I'm trying not to make this into a religious discussion. I have no issue with your beliefs and if you feel that being nonreligious is "weak" then just surround yourself with people just like yourself and be happy. 

Back to the original thread topic... As the father of two daughters, I have taught them not to rely on a man in life but to be strong, assertive, and self reliant. That does not mean that they need to rely on a"strong" man, or that they themselves need to be bullies. But I don't want them being bullied either. 

Marriage today (in America) is not like marriage in the 1950s, where the strong dominant man leads the house and the woman "remembers her place" and yields to the man. My wife and I have a 50/50 marriage. We both make decisions, after consulting with each other. Would I defend and protect my family, with force if necessary? Heck yes I would! 

Nobody should let any person walk all over them, but I have seen some strong men do silly things when faced with adultery by their spouse. It's not weak. It's shock and a willingness to keep leading by example and doing what's "right" (in their mind at the time). Some look back and regret their actions eventually. But at the time, it seemed the right thing to do. 

One friend of mine found out his wife was leaving him for another man. He had been married for 15 years. He refused to hire a lawyer and said his wife was a good person and would treat him okay. She took him to the cleaners. This was a strong man who was weakened by love and a desire to show his kids that he wasn't out to hurt their mom. It happens.


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## CatholicDad

Men should lead their families. Too many men are complacent and have forgotten their God given responsibility to love, serve, and protect. Many sit back and fill their lives in selfishness: porn, sports, and luxury. Many are good men dulled by a life of pleasure and leisure. To be truly good men need to fear God and the judgment at the end which all men face.

Sure, false religious people are everywhere but I’d trust someone who wants and strives to have faith in God to someone who says “there is no God”.

To be strong, men need to think long term and ponder eternity... not just sit around and amuse themselves today.


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## Cletus

Girl_power said:


> It’s offensive to me if someone thinks there is something wrong with me and I need to be fixed. I hope that everyone would be offended if their partner believed this about them.


Not me. I would hope my partner, if they truly thought this, would tell me so I had the opportunity to fix it or declare it unchangeable. 

I'm neither perfect nor omniscient, and I absolutely know there are things "wrong" with me that need fixing. I would hope my partner would be so perceptive as well.


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## Cletus

CatholicDad said:


> I totally agree except love, humility, and compassion if taught without religion merely become “good ideas”.


Your religious bigotry is not unusual, so you get no specific demerits for holding it.

My son, raised as an atheist and with no belief in the supernatural, has as strong a sense of personal morality as any Christian I have ever known. His sister, not as much. These "good ideas" only come to fruition in those with the underlying character, and no belief in God will make a dent in anyone's behavior that they haven't personally internalized - at least, much past the age of 12. 

I'd rather hang around with someone who behaves well because it's what they believe rather than because they fear the repercussions, regardless of where they learned a "good idea".


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## Cletus

pastasauce79 said:


> If religion makes you a strong man then good for you! But you cannot generalize and say non religious men cannot be strong because that's not true.


Hear, hear!

I'm not sure Jerry Falwell Jr. would agree.


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## CatholicDad

Cletus said:


> Your religious bigotry is not unusual, so you get no specific demerits for holding it.
> 
> My son, raised as an atheist and with no belief in the supernatural, has as strong a sense of personal morality as any Christian I have ever known. His sister, not as much. These "good ideas" only come to fruition in those with the underlying character, and no belief in God will make a dent in anyone's behavior that they haven't personally internalized - at least, much past the age of 12.
> 
> I'd rather hang around with someone who behaves well because it's what they believe rather than because they fear the repercussions, regardless of where they learned a "good idea".


Isn’t your wife a Christian or aren’t you both ex-Christians and perhaps this is somewhat responsible for your son’s character? You’ve raised him with some Christian values whether intended or not.

I think most atheists will abandon morality as soon as it is contrary to what they want. They are their own Gods... Impressive on the exterior but rotten within.


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## frusdil

CatholicDad said:


> I’m was rejected from the Marine Corps for Eczema or I probably would have.
> 
> My ideal of a good man isn’t necessarily a [email protected] war fighter... *some of the best men I’ve known are just normal men, good fathers... that fear God and help and lead others to Him*. The lives of the saints tell such tales. There’s actually only a limited amount of good that can be done from behind a rifle. I certainly respect the men that suffer to keep us free... they’re definitely wolves, not house dogs. I think without a belief in God those wolves can be a real danger.


Oh please. My husband is an atheist and is the most wonderful man you'll ever meet. My brothers, one of whom is gay are also wonderful men. A belief in a mythical figure has nothing to do with making someone a good person.


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## frusdil

CatholicDad said:


> Isn’t your wife a Christian or aren’t you both ex-Christians and perhaps this is somewhat responsible for your son’s character? You’ve raised him with some Christian values whether intended or not.
> 
> *I think most atheists will abandon morality as soon as it is contrary to what they want. They are their own Gods... Impressive on the exterior but rotten within.*


Who do you think you are??? Omg! How dare you talk to @Cletus like that?


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## RandomDude

CatholicDad said:


> I think most atheists will abandon morality as soon as it is contrary to what they want. They are their own Gods... Impressive on the exterior but rotten within.


Many simply do not need the fear of the unknown to inspire them to morality


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## pastasauce79

RandomDude said:


> Many simply do not need the fear of the unknown to inspire them to morality


I truly believe something extreme has happened to religious extremists. Some decide their only cope mechanism is to give a divine power total control of their lives because by themselves, they cannot control anything they do. 

Why having a brain when all the answers to human life can be found in a religious book?


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## Mr.Married

What some of you may not know is @CatholicDad is a recovering porn addict himself. Being of addictive personality type he has simply transferred it to religious beliefs for the time being. Like most of those “newly transformed” that burn so bright I’m sure in time he will transfer his addiction behavior back to something else..... hopefully not porn again.

By Comparison:

Did y’all know @ConanHub is ordained??

One of these dudes is driven by compulsive addictive behavior and the other by common sense.

Making any one thing omnipotent and blanket coverage Is not a good approach.

I’ll go now to let my wife the second grade teacher know she is morally bankrupt 🙄

Let’s just call a spade..... a spade.


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## ConanHub

This thread jump the tracks or is it just me?


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## Mr.Married

ConanHub said:


> This thread jump the tracks or is it just me?


Yeah your right.... but it’s my thread 🤣🤣🤣


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## aine

Mr.Married said:


> Can someone help me understand? It would seem I am dumbfounded more and more as time goes by. Men come to this board in situations that are just too hard to comprehend. Is it nature, nurture, media, nasty moms, etc etc etc.
> 
> Man card ..... revoked.


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## routerx

Mr.Married said:


> Can someone help me understand? It would seem I am dumbfounded more and more as time goes by. Men come to this board in situations that are just too hard to comprehend. Is it nature, nurture, media, nasty moms, etc etc etc.
> 
> Man card ..... revoked.


If you are talking about a man who loves a woman and trusts her but then finds out over time she is manipulating him, that isn't a man problem. I think in many cases, you have people posting who loved and have been burned. The fact that they reach out for advice or just to vent is healthy. Each and every marriage has a time when one person is acting like a jerk or pushing boundaries. I don't think the answer is to just stand your ground and suck it up. That's not manly - that's denial about a root issue. Real men try to figure out how to deal with the root of the problem.


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## CatholicDad

Mr.Married said:


> What some of you may not know is @CatholicDad is a recovering porn addict himself. Being of addictive personality type he has simply transferred it to religious beliefs for the time being. Like most of those “newly transformed” that burn so bright I’m sure in time he will transfer his addiction behavior back to something else..... hopefully not porn again.
> 
> By Comparison:
> 
> Did y’all know @ConanHub is ordained??
> 
> One of these dudes is driven by compulsive addictive behavior and the other by common sense.
> 
> Making any one thing omnipotent and blanket coverage Is not a good approach.
> 
> I’ll go now to let my wife the second grade teacher know she is morally bankrupt 🙄
> 
> Let’s just call a spade..... a spade.


Oh come on man... I’ve been free of porn forever and am never going back. Still addicted to the Catholic Church, sex with my wife, and TAM apparently since I can’t believe I’m taking time to reply to this garbage..

I know I’ve touched a nerve and am right when people attack me personally.


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## DTO

Numb26 said:


> Funniest part is that she still sniffs around every once in awhile. I figuratively pat her on the head and send her on her way


Nothing odd about that. She sees you have something going on. And perhaps her value on the market isn't as high as she thought.


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## aine

Mr.Married said:


> Can someone help me understand? It would seem I am dumbfounded more and more as time goes by. Men come to this board in situations that are just too hard to comprehend. Is it nature, nurture, media, nasty moms, etc etc etc.
> 
> Man card ..... revoked.


I read the title and thought of a different point of view. Most of you are talking about men who act like doormats.
My H is a weak man but I used to get treated like the doormat cause I let it happen. I do not consider myself weak in any sense of the word.

He is still a weak man cause he does not have a strong inner core, one which is morally upright, based on a good value system. He is all about the outer man, though he has worked with therapists on this. To me that is also the making of a weak man, who will give into his lusts, lacks self discipline, self-control and taking accountability for each and every one of his actions. This is why men end up in difficult situations and hurt the ones they love. That is also weakness and something I find very very difficult to respect, actually cannot respect.

So weakness is not just about men letting their SO treat them as doormats it is also about who they are when no-one is watching.
A different perspective.


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## ConanHub

aine said:


> I read the title and thought of a different point of view. Most of you are talking about men who act like doormats.
> My H is a weak man but I used to get treated like the doormat cause I let it happen. I do not consider myself weak in any sense of the word.
> 
> He is still a weak man cause he does not have a strong inner core, one which is morally upright, based on a good value system. He is all about the outer man, though he has worked with therapists on this. To me that is also the making of a weak man, who will give into his lusts, lacks self discipline, self-control and taking accountability for each and every one of his actions. This is why men end up in difficult situations and hurt the ones they love. That is also weakness and something I find very very difficult to respect, actually cannot respect.
> 
> So weakness is not just about men letting their SO treat them as doormats it is also about who they are when no-one is watching.
> A different perspective.


All true.


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## joannacroc

Weakness is an interesting characteristic, especially when it comes to perceptions of masculinity. I guess i have experienced it differently than you. It has been my observation that parents the most concerned about their boys specifically in preschool being weak are the ones causing trauma, sometimes inadvertently. It's the ones saying "don't let my boy play in the kitchen. That's girl stuff." To which we gently remind them that all the centers are open to everyone. You wouldn't tell a girl she can't play with the toolset or trucks. I find that kind of fragility of masculinity to be extremely weak. They admonish their child for being less than perfect, for playing with the "wrong things " or for showing affection. How fragile is one's sense of masculinity if your 3 year old boy liking flowers or the color red is a big deal to you? 

Repressing your child's emotions and choices leads to a deeply unhealthy dynamic later because they feel not only shouldn't they be loving or affectionate but they can't feel sad or cry when they feel down or they will be ridiculed and admonished as weak. Respectfully I acknowledge that many parents have experienced their own trauma and only wish to guard their children against the hardness of the world, but the extreme focus on masculine strength is not to the advantage of the mental health of our next generation of men. Just my 500 cents. (Sorry for the long-winded post. Sometimes I do go on and on!)


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## Hiner112

joannacroc said:


> Weakness is an interesting characteristic, especially when it comes to perceptions of masculinity. I guess i have experienced it differently than you. It has been my observation that parents the most concerned about their boys specifically in preschool being weak are the ones causing trauma, sometimes inadvertently. It's the ones saying "don't let my boy play in the kitchen. That's girl stuff." To which we gently remind them that all the centers are open to everyone. You wouldn't tell a girl she can't play with the toolset or trucks. I find that kind of fragility of masculinity to be extremely weak. They admonish their child for being less than perfect, for playing with the "wrong things " or for showing affection. How fragile is one's sense of masculinity if your 3 year old boy liking flowers or the color red is a big deal to you?
> 
> Repressing your child's emotions and choices leads to a deeply unhealthy dynamic later because they feel not only shouldn't they be loving or affectionate but they can't feel sad or cry when they feel down or they will be ridiculed and admonished as weak. Respectfully I acknowledge that many parents have experienced their own trauma and only wish to guard their children against the hardness of the world, but the extreme focus on masculine strength is not to the advantage of the mental health of our next generation of men. Just my 500 cents. (Sorry for the long-winded post. Sometimes I do go on and on!)



There's an irony to that. I remember spending just as much time in the dress up / kitchen area of kindergarten as the block section. In some ways I think it helped me be a better husband and father to my girls.

The part of the post talking about not seeking help was something else I was influenced by but not in a good way. I was harassed by some girls in 5th-10th grade pretty regularly. Not being a "real boy/man", never having anyone care about me, and being a wimp and so on. Junior and Senior years I guess they lost interest as they got boyfriends and started worrying more about going to college and finally growing up. I would have rather committed suicide than prove them right by seeking help or even complaining to anyone.

At any rate, I'm fairly confident now, regardless of whatever ****ty thing life throws at me, I can handle it. Marine corps drill instructors don't curse, insult, kick, or spit any worse than those teen girls did. I nearly laughed out loud during boot camp thinking about it.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Married

All good points by everyone!


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## Mr.Married

aine said:


> I read the title and thought of a different point of view.


If my memory serves me right (and often it doesn’t) you should be right at the time frame for your exit plan. Did your avatar used to be a puppy ?


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## ConanHub

joannacroc said:


> Weakness is an interesting characteristic, especially when it comes to perceptions of masculinity. I guess i have experienced it differently than you. It has been my observation that parents the most concerned about their boys specifically in preschool being weak are the ones causing trauma, sometimes inadvertently. It's the ones saying "don't let my boy play in the kitchen. That's girl stuff." To which we gently remind them that all the centers are open to everyone. You wouldn't tell a girl she can't play with the toolset or trucks. I find that kind of fragility of masculinity to be extremely weak. They admonish their child for being less than perfect, for playing with the "wrong things " or for showing affection. How fragile is one's sense of masculinity if your 3 year old boy liking flowers or the color red is a big deal to you?
> 
> Repressing your child's emotions and choices leads to a deeply unhealthy dynamic later because they feel not only shouldn't they be loving or affectionate but they can't feel sad or cry when they feel down or they will be ridiculed and admonished as weak. Respectfully I acknowledge that many parents have experienced their own trauma and only wish to guard their children against the hardness of the world, but the extreme focus on masculine strength is not to the advantage of the mental health of our next generation of men. Just my 500 cents. (Sorry for the long-winded post. Sometimes I do go on and on!)


I use to love stealing time with my sister's easy bake oven.

I also use to pop the heads off her dolls and had a tendency to destroy my older toys for fun.

Cooking is just fine and the boy energy to conquer and destroy is as well and neither should be suppressed but guided.


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## joannacroc

Hiner112 said:


> There's an irony to that. I remember spending just as much time in the dress up / kitchen area of kindergarten as the block section. In some ways I think it helped me be a better husband and father to my girls.
> 
> The part of the post talking about not seeking help was something else I was influenced by but not in a good way. I was harassed by some girls in 5th-10th grade pretty regularly. Not being a "real boy/man", never having anyone care about me, and being a wimp and so on. Junior and Senior years I guess they lost interest as they got boyfriends and started worrying more about going to college and finally growing up. I would have rather committed suicide than prove them right by seeking help or even complaining to anyone.
> 
> At any rate, I'm fairly confident now, regardless of whatever ****ty thing life throws at me, I can handle it. Marine corps drill instructors don't curse, insult, kick, or spit any worse than those teen girls did. I nearly laughed out loud during boot camp thinking about it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Glad to hear that play helped you! 

I'm sorry you went through that experience of being bullied. Not used to teaching older kids so I haven't been able to help kids that age through a tough time but you're right, teens especially teenage girls can be very cruel. Hopefully we grow out of it eventually! But although I guess it does toughen you up, I did note with concern that over time you learned not to seek help or talk about it. Do you find you are able to talk about it now as an adult when you are experiencing something really tough?


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## joannacroc

ConanHub said:


> I use to love stealing time with my sister's easy bake oven.
> 
> I also use to pop the heads off her dolls and had a tendency to destroy my older toys for fun.
> 
> Cooking is just fine and the boy energy to conquer and destroy is as well and neither should be suppressed but guided.


How true. I went through a major learning curve when I had my son. His need to wrestle, play rough and tumble and pretend to fence, shoot etc. was completely alien to me growing up and I had to unlearn a lot of expectations that behavior like that was "bad" as opposed to completely developmentally ok as long as there are hard limits. I had to learn firsthand that wrestling and play fighting like a little cub was a need for him and that as long as he is not too rough and others aren't being too rough with him, that it's ok to let him do that. For him he is not neurotypical and is sensory seeking so he not only wants to play like that he NEEDS it.


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## Openminded

aine said:


> I read the title and thought of a different point of view. Most of you are talking about men who act like doormats.
> My H is a weak man but I used to get treated like the doormat cause I let it happen. I do not consider myself weak in any sense of the word.
> 
> He is still a weak man cause he does not have a strong inner core, one which is morally upright, based on a good value system. He is all about the outer man, though he has worked with therapists on this. To me that is also the making of a weak man, who will give into his lusts, lacks self discipline, self-control and taking accountability for each and every one of his actions. This is why men end up in difficult situations and hurt the ones they love. That is also weakness and something I find very very difficult to respect, actually cannot respect.
> 
> So weakness is not just about men letting their SO treat them as doormats it is also about who they are when no-one is watching.
> A different perspective.


I totally agree. My husband was the same as yours. I lost respect for him long before I finally divorced him.


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## ccpowerslave

I only ever remember my father stopping me from doing something he thought was lame one time. AYSO soccer was getting popular maybe due to Pele or something when I was a kid. I saw other kids playing it and one time my dad picked me up from daycare and there was practice going on and I asked him if I could play soccer.

He said, “No. If you want to play a sport play basketball, football, or baseball. Soccer is for girls.” So I played baseball.


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## ConanHub

ccpowerslave said:


> I only ever remember my father stopping me from doing something he thought was lame one time. AYSO soccer was getting popular maybe due to Pele or something when I was a kid. I saw other kids playing it and one time my dad picked me up from daycare and there was practice going on and I asked him if I could play soccer.
> 
> He said, “No. If you want to play a sport play basketball, football, or baseball. Soccer is for girls.” So I played baseball.


Hey!!?

I loved soccer and was great but we didn't have any teams where I grew up.

My youngest son was amazing and would have gotten scholarships and a shot at the pros if he hadn't had his head turned by a pretty face.😐


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## joannacroc

CatholicDad said:


> Spare the rod, spoil the child. Without a belief in God- there is no truth (just my truth, your truth, her truth). If you don’t shield kids from the internet they’ll literally watch thousands of porn or violent videos before they’re even old enough to drink a beer (we do need to shield kids from alcohol, drugs, driving, until of age too).
> 
> But, I agree with lots of love, humility, and compassion as stated above (the tenets of Christianity unless you prefer to teach these all to your kids by yourself). Seems to me though that we’re failing at teaching these in this “these are good ideas but there is no God“ modern culture.


Hope you don't mean that literally...


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## joannacroc

Numb26 said:


> Maybe start by getting the media, Hollywood, the school systems to stop teaching our kids that masculinity is evil.


Can't speak for the media or Hollywood but I am having trouble understanding what you mean by school systems teaching our kids that masculinity is evil? Can you elaborate?


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## aine

joannacroc said:


> Weakness is an interesting characteristic, especially when it comes to perceptions of masculinity. I guess i have experienced it differently than you. It has been my observation that parents the most concerned about their boys specifically in preschool being weak are the ones causing trauma, sometimes inadvertently. It's the ones saying "don't let my boy play in the kitchen. That's girl stuff." To which we gently remind them that all the centers are open to everyone. You wouldn't tell a girl she can't play with the toolset or trucks. I find that kind of fragility of masculinity to be extremely weak. They admonish their child for being less than perfect, for playing with the "wrong things " or for showing affection. How fragile is one's sense of masculinity if your 3 year old boy liking flowers or the color red is a big deal to you?
> 
> Repressing your child's emotions and choices leads to a deeply unhealthy dynamic later because they feel not only shouldn't they be loving or affectionate but they can't feel sad or cry when they feel down or they will be ridiculed and admonished as weak. Respectfully I acknowledge that many parents have experienced their own trauma and only wish to guard their children against the hardness of the world, but the extreme focus on masculine strength is not to the advantage of the mental health of our next generation of men. Just my 500 cents. (Sorry for the long-winded post. Sometimes I do go on and on!)


I agree with this. young men must be taught about their inner man. To be comfortable with who they are, with their emotions. the most important being that the inner man must align with the outer man. There should be no conflict between the two.


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## aine

Mr.Married said:


> If my memory serves me right (and often it doesn’t) you should be right at the time frame for your exit plan. Did your avatar used to be a puppy ?


Yes I think so. My exit plan is still a plan 😬🤫


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## ccpowerslave

ConanHub said:


> Hey!!?
> 
> I loved soccer and was great but we didn't have any teams where I grew up.
> 
> My youngest son was amazing and would have gotten scholarships and a shot at the pros if he hadn't had his head turned by a pretty face.😐


I’m just saying what he told me. I think he hated the flopping but then look at the NBA now.

Many years later we sat in my living room crushing beers watching the Word Cup so his opinion clearly changed but back then he was not into it.

Other than that he never said anything about the things I did and didn’t have a problem with me skateboarding or surfing.


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## Cletus

ccpowerslave said:


> He said, “No. If you want to play a sport play basketball, football, or baseball. Soccer is for girls.” So I played baseball.


Then begging your pardon, but your dad was a damned idiot, on this topic at least. Professional soccer players are some of the fittest athletes in existence. I managed to chip a bone in my elbow and tear my ACL playing this "non-sport".


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## ccpowerslave

Cletus said:


> Then begging your pardon, but your dad was a damned idiot, on this topic at least.


He came around the first time they televised the bulk of the Word Cup games on TV and he realized they don’t really stop play or have commercials.


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## K3itty

Going back to why some men keep their wives after blatant lies, cheating, disrespect...yes I would call them weak men. But also, they don't have much self-respect/mental toughness and probably have lots of self-doubt. And same goes for anyone who stays in bad relationships, doesn't have to be domestically violent ones, but even just bad ones where their SO belittles them (about money, looks, etc.) Some people don't have the guts to leave. Not confident they would get anything better if they leave. Or afraid to be alone, also a form of weakness. 

It's like being stuck in a bad job. Why do people complain on and on and some stay for decades... Just quit and look for another job. But they can't. 

Same for taking abuse from anywhere. From in-laws, toxic friends, etc. Some people just can't cut these relationships off. They rather suffer than deal with whatever inconveniences. 

This applies to men and women.


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## ConanHub

ccpowerslave said:


> I’m just saying what he told me. I think he hated the flopping but then look at the NBA now.
> 
> Many years later we sat in my living room crushing beers watching the Word Cup so his opinion clearly changed but back then he was not into it.
> 
> Other than that he never said anything about the things I did and didn’t have a problem with me skateboarding or surfing.


Hahaha! Just giving you a hard time. 😉


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## Cletus

ccpowerslave said:


> He came around the first time they televised the bulk of the Word Cup games on TV and he realized they don’t really stop play or have commercials.


Yes, but the important part of that anecdote is that he would have considered a soccer player a "weak man". Plenty of folks still have this same bias towards soccer players. Not that I really care about soccer players - the wider point is that some outdated or never even accurate assessment is being used to determine who is "manly enough" to wear the lapel pin.


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## Mr.Married

K3itty said:


> Going back to why some men keep their wives after blatant lies, cheating, disrespect...yes I would call them weak men. But also, they don't have much self-respect/mental toughness and probably have lots of self-doubt. And same goes for anyone who stays in bad relationships, doesn't have to be domestically violent ones, but even just bad ones where their SO belittles them (about money, looks, etc.) Some people don't have the guts to leave. Not confident they would get anything better if they leave. Or afraid to be alone, also a form of weakness.
> 
> It's like being stuck in a bad job. Why do people complain on and on and some stay for decades... Just quit and look for another job. But they can't.
> 
> Same for taking abuse from anywhere. From in-laws, toxic friends, etc. Some people just can't cut these relationships off. They rather suffer than deal with whatever inconveniences.
> 
> This applies to men and women.


Howdy @K3itty 

You haven’t been on the forum long but have been doing a good job jumping in. Your above statement is exactly the thought process I was having when I originally started this thread.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

K3itty said:


> Going back to why some men keep their wives after blatant lies, cheating, disrespect...yes I would call them weak men. But also, they don't have much self-respect/mental toughness and probably have lots of self-doubt. And same goes for anyone who stays in bad relationships, doesn't have to be domestically violent ones, but even just bad ones where their SO belittles them (about money, looks, etc.) Some people don't have the guts to leave. Not confident they would get anything better if they leave. Or afraid to be alone, also a form of weakness.
> 
> It's like being stuck in a bad job. Why do people complain on and on and some stay for decades... Just quit and look for another job. But they can't.
> 
> Same for taking abuse from anywhere. From in-laws, toxic friends, etc. Some people just can't cut these relationships off. They rather suffer than deal with whatever inconveniences.
> 
> This applies to men and women.


That's one of my rules in what a man should maintain, in order to be a good H; the ability to be independent financially and emotionally at any time.


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## Elizabeth001

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That's one of my rules in what a man should maintain, in order to be a good H; the ability to be independent financially and emotionally at any time.


One of mine too but I’m prepared to give the same 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Hiner112

joannacroc said:


> Glad to hear that play helped you!
> 
> I'm sorry you went through that experience of being bullied. Not used to teaching older kids so I haven't been able to help kids that age through a tough time but you're right, teens especially teenage girls can be very cruel. Hopefully we grow out of it eventually! But although I guess it does toughen you up, I did note with concern that over time you learned not to seek help or talk about it. Do you find you are able to talk about it now as an adult when you are experiencing something really tough?


I've learned coping mechanisms that work for me. Exercise and analysis especially since they calm any emotions and give me a sense of control for instance. Honestly, places like here and reddit have been places where I've "talked" about things but I've generally found that by the time I've applied my normal coping mechanisms as well as comparing it to what I've dealt with before that current problems usually don't seem that bad.


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## Hiner112

joannacroc said:


> Can't speak for the media or Hollywood but I am having trouble understanding what you mean by school systems teaching our kids that masculinity is evil? Can you elaborate?


There were times when "boys will be boys" just meant a presumption of guilt. The school system tends to be more accepting of stereotypical girl behavior.



joannacroc said:


> I went through a major learning curve when I had my son. His need to wrestle, play rough and tumble and pretend to fence, shoot etc. was completely alien to me growing up and I had to unlearn a lot of expectations that behavior like that was "bad" as opposed to completely developmentally ok as long as there are hard limits.


Almost none of this would be acceptable in school for instance.


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## MEA

Mr.Married said:


> yeah that’s what I mean
> 
> Guy has to hide while wife is screwing other men
> 
> wife moves out to be with other man to try him out then he takes her back
> 
> Guy uncontrollably emotional about divorce after his wife has been running around for years
> 
> These stories go on and on .....


This type of self-degradation is absolutely sickening. It sickens me to see men humiliate themselves like this almost as much as it sickens me to see women humiliate themselves under the same circumstances.

Nobody - man or woman - should tolerate anything less in a relationship than someone who overall makes life better just by being married to them.

The fact that women have been economically forced in past centuries to accept and normalize domestic abuse (whether physical, emotional, psychological, or spiritual) does not make it any less devastating or more ok for either gender to experience from one another.

People treat us the way we allow them to.


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## Mr.Married

Yes !!!!! Resurrection 😇


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## Goobertron

I just read the OP. It's the nature of marriage and cohabitation. Men get trained in the art of compromise and sacrifice and eventually they've given everything of themselves away and when that happens they've reached the end of the relationship. It's ironic you make changes for her happiness and then when you have in fact changed they don't want you anymore. You can be converted over to a provider of child support payments and they monkey-branch onto the next guy who they generate "feelings" for. It's not a mean thing or a cruel thing - it's subconscious selection behaviour and the fleeting nature of happiness. If you get everything you want it doesn't necessarily make for a happy person.

We each need a purpose, a direction, to feel of value. So every "win" can in fact become a loss - it damages the other party and pollutes the relationship and when the environment becomes too toxic the relationship dissolves. In many cases (because of a range of factors: eg. female intuition, having more time not working, and because a woman gets far more attention than men from the opposite sex) the female initiates this process and has already made concrete plans for this final transition by the time the guy suspects, however fleetingly, that this may happen.


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