# Vacation Without the Spouse



## Tortdog

Here is an issue that many write about but I still struggle with it. My wife is going on a month long vacation to Europe without me. I work and can't take that long. Also, the time she is going is the height of the season... The ticket is north of $1800, with at least another $1500 for living expenses. We can afford it but I see that as an individual draining the family budget without thinking of the family. I would rather save this money for a family vacation, or a couple retreat.

She says she needs her time with a friend in Europe. The friend has a special occasion coming up so we can't pick a more reasonable time. Because she is going for to Europe for some girl time with her friend, she asked about sticking around another 4 weeks with our daughter who is spending a month to visit friends in Europe on her own dime as a post graduation treat. I can see a weekend with the girls, and spending a reasonable chuck of change but $3000 for a month trip through Europe without your spouse seems selfish.

I get the mother daughter joy, but honestly it really bothers me that she would choose to spend so much money and time away. I would never suggest doing this. I would never draw that much money from the family budget for "my" trip and leave my spouse behind. So there is some emotional hurt there as well. 

This is the third time that she has gone on an expensive vacation without me in our 25 years of marriage. The first two times it created a lot of fighting. She went regardless. This time I reminded her how this hurt me, but she needs this and is not changing her mind. So I am trying to be supportive (I will make work adjustments to watch the youngest kids while she is gone) and I try to out on a smile. 

Honestly, though, I want nothing to do with her right now. I want to just focus on the kids and avoid conversations where she and the daughter talk excitedly about this trip (that I am paying for as the principal earner) and avoid the situation altogether but that risks me coming across at sulking or being pouty (not attractive). 

I know about self-validation. But choosing to do this over and over when you know the effect it has on your spouse makes me question her value system. But then she might see me as needy. Fine, go have some fun for a weekend or that but more than $3000 of our money on yourself and leaving the rest of us behind? 

How do you cope effectively without harming the relationship?

I am trying to be mature and not overreact by spending $3k on a trip for myself or canceling family vacations planned going forward because she spent the money on herself. I know... Childish.


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## giddiot

Well if it were me I would tell her that her stuff will be in storage, the locks will be changed on the house and see her in court. She will not stop without consequences and you have given her none. Sounds like entitled princess syndrome to me.


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## Mclane

Tortdog said:


> How do you cope effectively without harming the relationship?


The relationship is already harmed. 

There are serious problems here. The vacation without you is only the tip of the iceberg.


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## Hope1964

Your wife sounds like an entitled b!tch, quite frankly.

But then, we only have your side of the story, and you have no posting history we can look up for more info.

You say you are paying, but it isn't clear if you are paying for her month with her friend, or the month with your daughter??

Frankly, if you're paying for ANY of it, WHY??? You don't support it, your wife is doing it against your wishes, so why would you pay?


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## SadSamIAm

Three times in 25 years is not very often. I don't like the way you think of the money as yours being the primary earner. You have been together 25 years. You should think of all the money as your families money.

Going away for a month is quite a long time. That is the only thing I would have an issue with. $3000 isn't that much for that long of a holiday.

I go away once or twice a year for 4 to 7 days to go golfing with buddies. My wife has gone for a few days with girlfriends as well.

The only question I have is about your daughter. She is going to Europe to spend time with friends for a month. Does she really want her mother with her the entire time? If one of my kids was going to Europe to see friends and I was there at the same time, I could see myself spending a few days with them, but not 4 weeks.


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## Mclane

giddiot said:


> Well if it were me I would tell her that her stuff will be in storage, the locks will be changed on the house and see her in court. She will not stop without consequences and you have given her none. Sounds like entitled princess syndrome to me.


Well of course that's another way to do it.

Take no prisoners!


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## Hope1964

SadSamIAm said:


> I go away once or twice a year for 4 to 7 days to go golfing with buddies. My wife has gone for a few days with girlfriends as well


4 to 7 days is WAY different than a month. Also, do you and your wife both agree that this is OK? If so, fine - there's no issue. But there IS an issue if one or the other partner doesn't agree with these separate vacations. What works for one couple may not work for another.


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## MattMatt

Tortdog said:


> Here is an issue that many write about but I still struggle with it. My wife is going on a month long vacation to Europe without me. I work and can't take that long. Also, the time she is going is the height of the season... The ticket is north of $1800, with at least another $1500 for living expenses. We can afford it but I see that as an individual draining the family budget without thinking of the family. I would rather save this money for a family vacation, or a couple retreat.
> 
> She says she needs her time with a friend in Europe. The friend has a special occasion coming up so we can't pick a more reasonable time. Because she is going for to Europe for some girl time with her friend, she asked about sticking around another 4 weeks with our daughter who is spending a month to visit friends in Europe on her own dime as a post graduation treat. I can see a weekend with the girls, and spending a reasonable chuck of change but $3000 for a month trip through Europe without your spouse seems selfish.
> 
> I get the mother daughter joy, but honestly it really bothers me that she would choose to spend so much money and time away. I would never suggest doing this. I would never draw that much money from the family budget for "my" trip and leave my spouse behind. So there is some emotional hurt there as well.
> 
> This is the third time that she has gone on an expensive vacation without me in our 25 years of marriage. The first two times it created a lot of fighting. She went regardless. This time I reminded her how this hurt me, but she needs this and is not changing her mind. So I am trying to be supportive (I will make work adjustments to watch the youngest kids while she is gone) and I try to out on a smile.
> 
> Honestly, though, I want nothing to do with her right now. I want to just focus on the kids and avoid conversations where she and the daughter talk excitedly about this trip (that I am paying for as the principal earner) and avoid the situation altogether but that risks me coming across at sulking or being pouty (not attractive).
> 
> I know about self-validation. But choosing to do this over and over when you know the effect it has on your spouse makes me question her value system. But then she might see me as needy. Fine, go have some fun for a weekend or that but more than $3000 of our money on yourself and leaving the rest of us behind?
> 
> How do you cope effectively without harming the relationship?
> 
> I am trying to be mature and not overreact by spending $3k on a trip for myself or canceling family vacations planned going forward because she spent the money on herself. I know... Childish.


Well, let's see. I am quite good at parsing the messages that are hidden amidst words.

What message do I perceive that your wife is sending?

It's a bold, simple message:

It's this: *"F**k you! And f**k the younger children!"*

Would cancelling the family vacation really be childish? Actually, I do not see it that way.

It's certainly a rational response to the despicable and selfish actions of your wife.

Has she suggested any way to make it up to the younger children? 

Or is that your job, too? 

What might be possible is to book a Christmas vacation for you and the younger children and leave your wife at home.

Or a cheaper option, book you and the younger children into a hotel for a week or two starting on the* exact day* your wife is due back and have a mini-break.

Your wife is disrespecting you and she is disrespecting your younger children.

There's something that doesn't smell right, here. I'm not saying it is cheating, but it smells wrong.


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## Mr. Nail

This was a problem early in our marriage when we were still in the honeymoon stage and couldn't get enough of each other. My wife was oldest, and her parents couldn't figure out why she shouldn't continue going on family vacations with them. Now at nearly 30 years and no kids at home, I could use the break some times. In fact my first reaction to this question was, "Go ahead Dear, you won't mind If I pick up that new shotgun while you are gone, will you?" (no, I'm not thinking of spending anywhere near $3000 on a gun) 

Last year we spent a week apart and a week together, and I enjoyed both. This year we are vacationing together but spending most of each day apart. Next year she wants me to visit her extended family. I'm scared. 

This is all about me, and no advice to the OP. If I was getting stuck home with the younger kids I would feel no happier than you do. There are things my wife will not do (like roller coasters) I would work some of that into the time wife is gone, and yes, reduce future vacation plans. Most dads don't get enough chances to bond with their kids. Plan it out and make the best of the situation. At the very least make chocolate chip Mancakes for breakfast.


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## Blondilocks

She won't understand your position until she faces the same scenario. Don't worry about coming across as pouty, sulking or needy. Do plan a trip for yourself that will keep you away for a good time and make sure it is costly. Leave her to look after the kids.

How can she take a month off of work?


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## Mclane

Blondilocks said:


> She won't understand your position until she faces the same scenario. Don't worry about coming across as pouty, sulking or needy. Do plan a trip for yourself that will keep you away for a good time and make sure it is costly. Leave her to look after the kids.


Great advice!

Are you going to suggest he give her the silent treatment next?

/sarcasm off


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## Blondilocks

If he feels he needs to, just like his wife feels she needs a month long trip to Europe.

That was your third post on this thread and not one bit of advice. Hard to offer advice when you're trying to be a snotty sob, isn't it?


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## bandit.45

Book a one week stay at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada. Take pics and send them to her.


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## Evinrude58

Honey, I'm headed for Europe for a month and you're paying for it and keeping the kids.......

Now, stop your whining you selfish, controlling, co-dependent bastard.
I need this time. I'm feeling like these walls are closing in on me!
All the responsibility I have to (you fill in here).


I'm guessing she doesn't work if she has a month off. Oh, she does have 4 weeks off? Then she doesn't have but one week of vacation left to spend with her family?

Just asking, but I feel this is important-- how's your sex life? Do you have to beg for it and get it only when she is in the mood and you've done x,y,z first?

Yeah, I'm thinking this is totally unfair, selfish, she may want go frolic with other men or at least get their attention......

A week? Sure
Two weeks? Maybe

A month on your dime? Priceless.😕
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsAldi

Maybe you should go on a luxury trip on your own or with a few of your friends also. Enjoy life, relax. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Divinely Favored

3 times?! Without you and children. Oh HELL NO! When she goes to get the tickets the bank is going to tell her she is over drawn! Had to have a down payment on that new Harley in the drive way.

You are working she can take the kids with her!

Seriously ID have 10k in a separate acct she has no access to for you to blow.

That would prompt me to investigate a little, but my wife and I are not ones to be away for more than 2 days.

Start saving up 10k to spend on something YOU want with out her input.


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## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> Book a one week stay at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada. Take pics and send them to her.


Bandit, he'd have to take the youngest kids, too, so this is the type of Bunny Ranch he'd be looking for, I think:-


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## Mclane

Blondilocks said:


> If he feels he needs to, just like his wife feels she needs a month long trip to Europe.
> 
> That was your third post on this thread and not one bit of advice. Hard to offer advice when you're trying to be a snotty sob, isn't it?


You are suggesting he do it to "get even" or teach her a lesson of some sort, not because he has a sudden need to just give up his job that he obviously cannot get away from for that long.

That sort of immature retaliation solves nothing and causes more problems than it ever fixes. It's childish, it's an ineffective means of communication and it can take an already troubled marriage and spiral it into disaster.

How's that for advice?


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## SadSamIAm

Curious how old the younger children are?


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## MattMatt

MrsAldi said:


> Maybe you should go on a luxury trip on your own or with a few of your friends also. Enjoy life, relax.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


:iagree:

And Mrs Aldi, can I say that I love your name, quite a Lidl bit? 
:rofl:


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## MattMatt

Mclane said:


> You are suggesting he do it to "get even" or teach her a lesson of some sort, not because he has a sudden need to just give up his job that he obviously cannot get away from for that long.
> 
> That sort of immature retaliation solves nothing and causes more problems than it ever fixes. It's childish, it's an ineffective means of communication and it can take an already troubled marriage and spiral it into disaster.
> 
> How's that for advice?


What's the alternative?


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## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Bandit, he'd have to take the youngest kids, too, so this is the type of Bunny Ranch he'd be looking for, I think:-



After she gets back.











:rofl:


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## Mclane

MattMatt said:


> What's the alternative?


Sit her down and try to talk some reason into her, and explain there's only so much money and why not shorten the trip and the expense so they can all travel together somewhere on a family vacation?


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## Tortdog

First, I have always been the primary earner. Most of our marriage she stayed at home. I have always considered the money to be "ours" ... more like the family's. At issue is when one person spends the family pot when there is a disagreement ... when that draw is significant.

Now, if she was contributing 90% of the cash to the pot, I guess I would probably take a pause if she wanted to spend a lot on herself. I mean, candidly, she earned it. Do I do that with myself? I really don't.

On the "more behind the scenes," she has spoken up that she gets jealous when I go on an extended business trip. These trips are required and generally only a couple times per year. When I have a trip going for more than 3 weeks in a place that I have never been, I have only recently (last couple of years) gone on side trips. For example, I was in India and did a side trip with others traveling on a weekend. We did Sri Lanka for 3 days/2 nights for $450 including all expenses (air fare and all). She was bothered by that but others at work over the years had done it and I finally figured ... I'm going to to SOMETHING as opposed to sit in a hotel for 4 weeks straight. So I have done a side trip to the Great Wall of China, Amsterdam (no, not the prostitutes), etc. When I do something like this, I really do keep it cheap. Great Wall when at China cost us about $100 each (for the entire day). So I'm not extravagant. I also would have no issues if she traveled and she did something on the side. I didn't pay to fly myself from the United States to Sri Lanka for vacation. I just don't see the comparison. She does.

But she was doing these vacations BEFORE I ever considered a side trip on a business assignment. So really I see this as an excuse.

On the kids, she is MOST concerned on leaving me with the two youngest while she is gone. I have to significantly rearrange my work schedule (that brings in 90% of the cash) to accommodate her trip to Europe. 

On the daughter, my wife and daughter are closer than close. They do EVERYTHING together. Makes me jealous wishing that I was as close to my wife. So I see why she would want to do that.

I did suggest that she stay with the daughter IF she spent the $1800 to go to London. I mean, if I spent that much money, why wouldn't you stick around since you are already over there. $1500 for expenses and a month in Europe is not that much. Just sucks that it is just her and the daughter. I had suggested just months before that we do a family trip around the world ... everywhere she'd want to go. Because we were already going to Hawaii this year (graduation present for the Europe daughter), going to the Grand Canyon with the family, we felt it was too much to fit in. But now she plunked the Europe idea on me.

So that's more of the full story. Frankly, I have ZERO concerns of another guy. Just not happening. I really think she just has a different belief system on what is the right way to act in a relationship. She would be very happy if I was only 10% of her day. She likes to do things on her own ... space ... not anybody. When kids are around, 90% of the time is theirs and then she needs to spend some time with me. That's a drain and over 25 years I think it has largely ... corrupted her.


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## MrsAldi

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And Mrs Aldi, can I say that I love your name, quite a Lidl bit?
> :rofl:


Lol, thank you. My husband gave me that nickname when we were dating, as I was such a cheap yet classy date! Every Lidl bit helps! 

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## Tortdog

I also told her it is unreasonable for a friend to ask her to be there for a 3 hour religious ceremony when it costs $1800. I mean, pick a time when the air fare is $650 or so ... not peak tourist season. If my best friend asked me to be a best man at a wedding and it would cost me $1800 just in air fare, I'd ask him for the ticket and smile as I asked. If I asked him to do something like that, I'd completely get it if he said it's a bit too much for the deal ... or consider times that would not present a hardship.

Again, the European trip is cheap because she already spent the $1800 to be with a friend for 3 hours. Reality, is she wants this trip and she wants some alone time with her girlfriend. And even if my wife suggested that I stay an additional 4 weeks there is no way that I would. I just couldn't do it. Spending 4 weeks from my wife/family is Hell. I only do it when work requires it. I certainly would never CHOOSE it.


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## Tortdog

The younger kids are 8 and 10 years old.



SadSamIAm said:


> Curious how old the younger children are?


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## Mclane

Tortdog said:


> . Spending 4 weeks from my wife/family is Hell. I only do it when work requires it. I certainly would never CHOOSE it.


Well she is obviously in a different place than you are.

Take that for what it's worth.


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## giddiot

Mclane said:


> Well of course that's another way to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Take no prisoners!




I have been married 37 years and I would not have put up with this. Going to spend time with family yes, going on a solo European vacation, no way.


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## Blondilocks

Mclane said:


> You are suggesting he do it to "get even" or teach her a lesson of some sort, not because he has a sudden need to just give up his job that he obviously cannot get away from for that long.
> 
> That sort of immature retaliation solves nothing and causes more problems than it ever fixes. It's childish, it's an ineffective means of communication and it can take an already troubled marriage and spiral it into disaster.
> 
> How's that for advice?


What advice? Seriously, google it and you'll find that you don't know the meaning

No, I was not suggesting he do it to 'get even'. I was suggesting that he level the playing field. Never suggested he take a month off of work - did you even bother to read my post? Sticking up for yourself is not childish; however, you seem to think that ruffling any feathers is tantamount to filing for divorce. I'm sorry you're so afraid of life.


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## MrsAldi

Tortdog said:


> The younger kids are 8 and 10 years old.


Hire a hot nanny, then she won't go on so many trips! Seriously you're wife sounds selfish. You sound like a doormat (no offence) she's living happily while you're in resentment street. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Mclane

@Blondilocks

You sound upset.


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## Tortdog

I printed out The Policy of Joint Agreement and Independent Behavior from MarriageBuilders. My thought is to have a discussion and let her know that going forward like this is not acceptable - that she was aware of my feelings with the other two trips and I had voiced my objection to this one and she proceeded anyway. 

I believe that where there is a significant disagreement on an issue, one person going forward regardless is unfair to the other spouse and unacceptable in a healthy relationship. That path is one of independence and if that is her view than she needs to find a relationship where she can live that kind of life. In my mind, that is not a marriage at all.

This trip is in the past. She's committed our resources already and there is no take back. So now she has a choice.

Thoughts?


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## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> After she gets back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl:


Hang on! They look like the three girls I share an office with! 

(_But not really!_)


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## MattMatt

Tortdog said:


> I printed out The Policy of Joint Agreement and Independent Behavior from MarriageBuilders. My thought is to have a discussion and let her know that going forward like this is not acceptable - that she was aware of my feelings with the other two trips and I had voiced my objection to this one and she proceeded anyway.
> 
> I believe that where there is a significant disagreement on an issue, one person going forward regardless is unfair to the other spouse and unacceptable in a healthy relationship. That path is one of independence and if that is her view than she needs to find a relationship where she can live that kind of life. In my mind, that is not a marriage at all.
> 
> This trip is in the past. She's committed our resources already and there is no take back. So now she has a choice.
> 
> Thoughts?


Your wife is a cheater. Really? Why Matt, how can you make that out?

She is cheating the family out of resources. If she takes all that money, it is not available for anyone else in the family.

"Daddy, can I have a..."

"Sorry, kid! We can't afford it, your mother took the spare money."

If your wife did the shopping and bought a 2 pound cheese back with her and one of the children just took half of it, she would be in a fit of rage.

But really what difference is there between one member of the family cheating the family out of a pound of cheese and one other member of the family cheating the family out of a large percentage of the family resources? 

You wife is making a rod for her own back. You and the younger children are starting to resent her because she is acting like Princess Entitlement. 

She won the argument ("I am going to Europe on your dime, so there!") but is in danger of losing a whole lot more.


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## Tortdog

It would help, Matt, if your country were cheaper to fly to...


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## MrsAldi

MrsAldi said:


> Lol, thank you. My husband gave me that nickname when we were dating, as I was such a cheap yet classy date! Every Lidl bit helps!
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


 @MattMatt by cheap I mean, he brought to McDonald's on our first date. Not cheap looking lol

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## Evinrude58

A good husband/wife relationship doesn't have one spouse planning a month-long solo jaunt to Europe on the families' dime, while expecting the spouse who is left behind to work and keep the kids.

She plans things with her husband and kids.

Then again, I honestly know very little about a good marriage. So I will wish you luck and say that I disagree with what she is doing, and my advice is to revoke access to money she doesn't earn. That way you actually have a say in how the money is spent. You are by far the more responsible spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr.StrongMan

To the OP, it would bother me too.


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## Tortdog

Funny thing is that she is generally fairly careful with our money. She doesn't spend a lot on herself ... mostly. But every now and again she has to have a new sofa, or something for the house. She rarely spends much money on herself.

This is only the third time that she has pressed to leave me for a vacation (once a girls cruise, another the same English friend, and again the English friend). 

I can suck up the financial hit. I got a great bonus. But it's the complete disregard for my views and the emotional hit every time she decides she is just going to do it regardless. It's not just vacations ... sometimes she comes down hard on something that she MUST do or have and it doesn't matter if I disagree.



Evinrude58 said:


> A good husband/wife relationship doesn't have one spouse planning a month-long solo jaunt to Europe on the families' dime, while expecting the spouse who is left behind to work and keep the kids.
> 
> She plans things with her husband and kids.
> 
> Then again, I honestly know very little about a good marriage. So I will wish you luck and say that I disagree with what she is doing, and my advice is to revoke access to money she doesn't earn. That way you actually have a say in how the money is spent. You are by far the more responsible spouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Tortdog said:


> It would help, Matt, if your country were cheaper to fly to...


It depends on the airline, the destination airport and the time of year. But trips to and from the USA are pretty steep.


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## MattMatt

MrsAldi said:


> @MattMatt by cheap I mean, he brought to McDonald's on our first date. Not cheap looking lol
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


I knew exactly what you meant! 

BTW, my wife prefers McDonald's to more classy restaurants!


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## MrsAldi

MattMatt said:


> I knew exactly what you meant!
> 
> BTW, my wife prefers McDonald's to more classy restaurants!


Can't beat the 'ol happy meal! 

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## Evinrude58

Tortdog said:


> Funny thing is that she is generally fairly careful with our money. She doesn't spend a lot on herself ... mostly. But every now and again she has to have a new sofa, or something for the house. She rarely spends much money on herself.
> 
> This is only the third time that she has pressed to leave me for a vacation (once a girls cruise, another the same English friend, and again the English friend).
> 
> I can suck up the financial hit. I got a great bonus. But it's the complete disregard for my views and the emotional hit every time she decides she is just going to do it regardless. It's not just vacations ... sometimes she comes down hard on something that she MUST do or have and it doesn't matter if I disagree.


Suck it up. Sounds like she's not all that bad and you are rightfully annoyed. Not worth getting super angry about.
If you live your wife, and you do, then 3k is nothing. Money well spent. The month away---- damn I'd be disappointed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

"sometimes she comes down hard on something that she MUST do or have and it doesn't matter if I disagree."

Do you want her to automatically give up her want and acquiesce to you? Because that is not fair to her. You're not disagreeing just to have the upper hand, are you? Does it matter to you if she disagrees?


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## ConanHub

Put your foot down. Don't send her to Europe on your money.

Would not be happening here.

Put the money towards marriage counseling. You need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## straightshooter

Well, you can just sit there and while about her going. With her attitude if she finds a guy over there she;ll do that to with as much as she gives a **** what you think.

i would tell her there will be divorce papers waiting for her when she returns.

my guess is she will still go.

And by the way, most of the books on infidelity says separate vacations with the "girls" come right after the work place as the incubator of affairs.


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## IamSomebody

Take the money you were going to spend on Hawaii and put it somewhere your wife can't reach it. Then inform the family, especially the daughter who will be traipsing around Europe with her mother, the Hawaii trip is off because your wife spent it all on her trip to Europe. Let her face the fallout from that.

From the sound of it, that friend from Europe has no problem stomping on your marriage. She is not good for the marriage.

IamSomebody


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## MattMatt

IamSomebody said:


> Take the money you were going to spend on Hawaii and put it somewhere your wife can't reach it. Then inform the family, especially the daughter who will be traipsing around Europe with her mother, the Hawaii trip is off because your wife spent it all on her trip to Europe. Let her face the fallout from that.
> 
> From the sound of it, that friend from Europe has no problem stomping on your marriage. She is not good for the marriage.
> 
> IamSomebody


Unless wifey has told her friend a complete load of bunkum? "Yes, my husband INSISTED that I took this holiday with you! He is so sweet about it! He is looking after my two little ones. Don't worry about it! We are having a family holiday in Hawaii later in the year. "

By the way. Ask your wife what reciprocal arrangement has been made? IE "What's in this for me?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog

Blondilocks said:


> "sometimes she comes down hard on something that she MUST do or have and it doesn't matter if I disagree."
> 
> Do you want her to automatically give up her want and acquiesce to you? Because that is not fair to her. You're not disagreeing just to have the upper hand, are you? Does it matter to you if she disagrees?


I would have pushed for a time when we could both go, or a time when prices were more reasonable.


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## RClawson

OP This issue started with my W about 3 years ago. She started taking beach trips with her gal pals (not friends of our marriage). At first it was no big deal but now it is 4 times a year and takes precedence above anything else. Last summer she told me she was going to a conference in Canada in a City I used to live in. Her colleagues would not be going so it would just be us. I was thrilled. When I talked about getting my passport she mentioned that the whole gang is going so I conveniently found an out through work.

It gets better. I am with her at her parents and she informs them that she will be going with her friends to Europe next summer. So on the way home I ask her when she was going to let me in on this and she said she did not think I was interested. At first I was angry but it has finally become clear to me that I cannot compete with them as far as her emotional fulfillment is concerned so I came to the conclusion I do not care any longer. 

What your W is doing to you does not speak volumes it screams them. As stated previously she is a selfish, entitled princess. Ultimately the sad truth is she is not intimately connected to you. You can accept that as I have and just live your life or you can move on but I doubt she is going to change and I tend to believe ultimatums will do you no good. Feel free to ask about Marriage Counseling but my guess is she will refuse because she has no interest of hearing a professional tell her how selfish her actions are.


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## Blondilocks

Tortdog said:


> I would have pushed for a time when we could both go, or a time when prices were more reasonable.


My questions were in reference to your general statement - not this trip. If you don't want to answer them, no problem.:smile2:


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## MattMatt

TD arrange a trip for you and the youngest children and leave your wife behind.

Some might dismiss that as childish. 

Fight fire with fire as they say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon

Absence makes the fond heart wander.


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## citygirl4344

I don't know.
I'd be really upset if my h took a vacation without me.
I feel like there was a thread similar to this before.

Anyway, a month is a long time...i would be mad if it were even a week.
And she can't throw the business trips back at you, especially if this business is paying for her trip.
Personally I'd tell her not to go.
I get having friend time but this is pushing the envelope.
Big trips like that should be taken by the both of you.

IMO she's being selfish and only thinking of herself. 



Sent from my iPhone


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## Tortdog

Blondilocks said:


> "sometimes she comes down hard on something that she MUST do or have and it doesn't matter if I disagree."
> 
> Do you want her to automatically give up her want and acquiesce to you? Because that is not fair to her. You're not disagreeing just to have the upper hand, are you? Does it matter to you if she disagrees?


I don't think so. I really like to see her happy. I am sure that I make snap judgments when something is mentioned that I innately believe does not make sense but that just begins the conversation. 

She always wanted to go on cruises and I had no desire to be stuck on a cattle car. I always opposed the notion. So she went alone on a girls trip. Later she wanted to go as a family and I gave in and we had a blast. 

I reacted negatively to going to Hawaii about 18 years ago. My view is spend the same money going to Brazil that would have more and is foreign. I acquiesed and told her that she was right. Hawaii is far nicer than. Rail as far as beauty... Though you miss the culture of Brazil. 

I am generally a positive guy but there are times when I have a predetermined view and my immediate response is a no. Not like that happens a ton. 

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


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## Boxpin

Tortdog said:


> ... she gets jealous when I go on an extended business trip. These trips are required and generally only a couple times per year. When I have a trip going for more than 3 weeks in a place that I have never been, I have only recently (last couple of years) gone on side trips.


In short, I know this couple personally. 

Lets put the money aside for a moment. I 100% agree that this would suck if my wife wanted to go on a trip without me. It would hurt. 

Couple Background:

The OP is or was the sole bread winner for years. The wife recently went back to school and is now contributing to the family income. 

The OP has had several high profile jobs that required him to travel a lot. Some trips short, some long. 

The wife of course stays home and mans the fort. 

Looking at this from the wife side the OP is getting to travel the world (granted on the company dime) and she is left behind to keep the house afloat, school and now a job. Lets not forget that.

Was she jealous, you bet. Did she stay home and take care of everything while the OP was gone, yes. Is running the household a tough job, yes. Would anyone watching their spouse leave on long trips constantly also want a break? Yes.

Things have changed with the OP's job and he is now more rooted and he wont see travel much at all in the future but the years of travel, I think, have taken their toll on the wife. 

As a personal friend, although it hurts, my advice is to allow this to happen. Support it and make it mean something to her, a pay back for all the time you were not there. Long term your relationship will grow, fight it and the relationship will suffer. Let her know that the next one is with you. 

Your friend, boxpin


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## giddiot

Boxpin said:


> In short, I know this couple personally.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets put the money aside for a moment. I 100% agree that this would suck if my wife wanted to go on a trip without me. It would hurt.
> 
> 
> 
> Couple Background:
> 
> 
> 
> The OP is or was the sole bread winner for years. The wife recently went back to school and is now contributing to the family income.
> 
> 
> 
> The OP has had several high profile jobs that required him to travel a lot. Some trips short, some long.
> 
> 
> 
> The wife of course stays home and mans the fort.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at this from the wife side the OP is getting to travel the world (granted on the company dime) and she is left behind to keep the house afloat, school and now a job. Lets not forget that.
> 
> 
> 
> Was she jealous, you bet. Did she stay home and take care of everything while the OP was gone, yes. Is running the household a tough job, yes. Would anyone watching their spouse leave on long trips constantly also want a break? Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Things have changed with the OP's job and he is now more rooted and he wont see travel much at all in the future but the years of travel, I think, have taken their toll on the wife.
> 
> 
> 
> As a personal friend, although it hurts, my advice is to allow this to happen. Support it and make it mean something to her, a pay back for all the time you were not there. Long term your relationship will grow, fight it and the relationship will suffer. Let her know that the next one is with you.
> 
> 
> 
> Your friend, boxpin




My question since you know them, why is she doing it without him? He was away because his job demanded it, she wants to go away on her own. That's entitled. She should be enjoying the world with her H not with her friends. This sounds more like retribution and spite.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Boxpin

giddiot said:


> Why is she doing it without him?


I think thats the only question that needs to be answered and she will need to provide it.


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## giddiot

Boxpin said:


> I think thats the only question that needs to be answered and she will need to provide it.



I don't get it when people think a business trip is a vacation. I have never liked to travel and miss my family when gone. I do it because I have too. This women must think its a big party. She needs to rethink her position. 

When people are married all decisions require agreement by both, that is why when people are married they are considered one together. He voiced his displeasure about this and she has completely ignored him. I would not put up with it.


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## Boxpin

Amen Brother.

I am just pointing out the reason its happening.


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## jb02157

After other long vacations to Europe without you I would put my foot down and say that we are going to spend the money on a family vacation or no vacation at all and that there will be serious consequences if she goes. Gosh would this piss me off. I don't see how you let her go the other times by herself. Girl time can be in the US or even in your city and not in Europe. Your wife seems very entitled and you have to stop this now! Don't let her go, unless she knows there will be serious consequences. When she comes back I would have her stuff on the drive way, locks changed on the house and divorce papers ready to serve her.


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## Tortdog

I completely see how my wife would feel. What takes me back is that this has happened before ... it is about one spouse making independent decisions when opposition is voiced by the other spouse as to harm that may bring to the relationship. I want her to be happy. I love her. However, what if her happiness means I am unhappy or I have to sacrifice in ways I believe are not supportable?

In my readings, I like the view that both spouses need to work to be "excited" about whatever they are working on. If one of the spouse's is not, before proceeding the two should pause and work it out. Both should try and figure out how to make it work, even when one opposes. Just blocking something is not a good way forward as ultimately the person being "blocked" gets their way while the other person is frustrated. That means both were not excited about the end result.

I am inclined in this case to just let it go. But I have already engaged my spouse with a heart to heart where she needs to figure out how we deal with these situations in the future, and that it's not okay for one partner to just "take" and leave the other person frustrated. Her immediate reaction to this was, "Hell, no! You will never let me do what I want to do and sometimes I just need to do what I want."

She feels that I am continuously blocking her wants. I don't see it and could go through many examples where we have spent a ton of money doing what she wants. But if she really feels that way, then we need to figure that out to move forward. Maybe, in the end, there is no way forward because she values independence more than the couple, i.e., she is matched with the wrong partner.


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## TX-SC

I think you should take this opportunity to create separate financial accounts. Many couples have separate accounts. It can give you more power over where YOUR money goes. You can easily divide living expenses based on income.


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## Tortdog

I wouldn't say she completely ignored my displeasure. I think she considered her want: To be with her friend in the UK for a particular event. She then considered my view: Maybe together when we can find time together or at minimum move the event (possible) to a time when it isn't an $1,850 ticket.

When I advised that this would harm our relationship she views that as my need conflicting with her need and her view trumped. That's the candid truth. She feels that she deserves this.

Honestly, on the additional 4 weeks that she wants to stay with our daughter, I understand why it is enticing. She already paid an outrageous sum to fly to the UK, so what's another $1,500 in expenses for four weeks? That's cheap once you are there. But the hit that brings is a great time with your daughter versus the emotional damage you do to the relationship with your spouse.

Four weeks is too long. A week or two, maybe. I get the mommy-daughter thing, but not at the expense of the spouse. The fact that she asks hurts, because I would NEVER ask to spend 4 weeks from her on vacation. I just would never do it. That suggests to me where I stand in her list of priorities.



giddiot said:


> I don't get it when people think a business trip is a vacation. I have never liked to travel and miss my family when gone. I do it because I have too. This women must think its a big party. She needs to rethink her position.
> 
> When people are married all decisions require agreement by both, that is why when people are married they are considered one together. He voiced his displeasure about this and she has completely ignored him. I would not put up with it.


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## Tortdog

I am inclined to your view. I suggested this and it did not go over well, but maybe we just need to do it. I hate it because it suggests that the two are not one, but seems that my view of "one" is vastly different than hers.



TX-SC said:


> I think you should take this opportunity to create separate financial accounts. Many couples have separate accounts. It can give you more power over where YOUR money goes. You can easily divide living expenses based on income.


----------



## jb02157

Tortdog said:


> I don't think so. I really like to see her happy. I am sure that I make snap judgments when something is mentioned that I innately believe does not make sense but that just begins the conversation.
> 
> She always wanted to go on cruises and I had no desire to be stuck on a cattle car. I always opposed the notion. So she went alone on a girls trip. Later she wanted to go as a family and I gave in and we had a blast.
> 
> I reacted negatively to going to Hawaii about 18 years ago. My view is spend the same money going to Brazil that would have more and is foreign. I acquiesed and told her that she was right. Hawaii is far nicer than. Rail as far as beauty... Though you miss the culture of Brazil.
> 
> I am generally a positive guy but there are times when I have a predetermined view and my immediate response is a no. Not like that happens a ton.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


Now your first post confuses me, seems like you're ok with her going.


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## Tortdog

I am just pointing out that sometimes I have a quick negative reaction, but when given time to think about it I change my mind.

4-week girl trip (even with one being a daughter) to Europe? No. I will never change my mind. That just spells disaster for a marriage in my view. That's a LONG time.

While I want her to be happy, at what point do you allow that when it hurts the marriage. Maybe if I was more Christ-like and only served the other person and put all my needs last, okay. I'm there. But I'm not there. I think the marriage has to be mutual. And part of me feels like I am being treated as a doormat, even though I don't believe that is HER view of what she is doing.


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## giddiot

Tortdog said:


> I am just pointing out that sometimes I have a quick negative reaction, but when given time to think about it I change my mind.
> 
> 4-week girl trip (even with one being a daughter) to Europe? No. I will never change my mind. That just spells disaster for a marriage in my view. That's a LONG time.
> 
> While I want her to be happy, at what point do you allow that when it hurts the marriage. Maybe if I was more Christ-like and only served the other person and put all my needs last, okay. I'm there. But I'm not there. I think the marriage has to be mutual. And part of me feels like I am being treated as a doormat, even though I don't believe that is HER view of what she is doing.


The Christian view is that you two become one. No decisions that are not mutual.


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## Marduk

there's an easy fix, but you're not gonna like it.

When she gets back, go on one yourself.


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## jb02157

It seems that the decision is her's: the vacation or the marriage.


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## Mike11

I will re write what I have wrote and deleted, In your shoes, I would not be ok with her leaving to this trip, I would make my self clear that if she feels I block her from doing what she wants then may be she is not suppose to be married and I will give her the freedom to do what she wants by not being married any more, she cannot make decisions like that in a family unit that concerned adults and children, a month trip to Europe is not a weeks cruise to the Bahamas.


There is a deep seeded flow in a relationship where one spouse feels entitled and acts upon it, I think it is a mistake letting her go with no significant consequence of any kind, and if I were you, I would definitely go alpha on her

just as an FIY I am married as long as you are (if not more) and do speak from experience...


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## Palodyne

It does sound like you have a problem on your hands with this. She is acting way to entitled. When you brought up a concern, she should have sat down with you and talked it out with you. See if a compromise could be reached, maybe shorten the stay to a week, or maybe not go at all. She doesn't even seem to show concern for the younger kids who may be cheated out of a nice vacation because of this. She apparently doesn't even feel you should have a say in this even though it is directly effecting you.

This is not the actions of a loving wife that cares for her family and has their best interests at heart. I AM NOT accusing your wife of cheating. But having this kind of attitude and being out on her own for extended periods of time could lead to much sorrow. You need to seriously begin trying to get through to her that you are done with her attitude of...."Ok, this is what I'm doing now, so, deal with it."

My parents vacationed together, when me and my siblings were born they always took us. It was always us as a family. Even now, parents in their 70"s, married 52 years, when they want to go to the beach or wherever they still want us all, kids and grandkids to go. So I can't even wrap my mind around the way your wife would drop the family to vacation alone. It is a foreign concept to me.


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## norajane

3 trips alone in 25 years doesn't seem like a lot to me. My fiance goes on trips without me and vice versa, and if the flight is a long way away, it's for a longer period of time.

My mom just spent a month away traveling with my sister and her H; my dad was plenty supportive and didn't feel slighted by this.

What are you other relationship dynamics? Maybe that's where your discontent is coming from. 

And if this is about money, do you spend money on yourself, just you, that benefits no one else? Cars, electronics, tools, guns, toys? Lots of men do that, but can't see that they do it though they are quick to see where their wife spends money.


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## Tito Santana

The biggest thing I draw from your predicament is that your wife is very selfish. I have an 8 and 10 yr old currently, and while I certainly understand that kids can be frustrating and taxing, there is no way I'd (or my wife) would want to be away from them for a month. Kids that age generally still want to hang out with mom and dad; it wont be like that forever, and you can't get that time back. The wife and I went on vacation without the kids this past year for a week, and it about tore us up.

I feel fortunate that my wife wants to hang out with myself and vice versa. We don't enjoy going on business trips, for the most part. Sure the break is nice sometimes, but I'd really rather be with my family. Whenever my wife has a conference, she always wants me to come with, so we can go explore stuff together.

The fact that you voice your displeasure and she still does her own thing is a big problem. I believe you have noted this in one of your posts, but you are way down the totem pole in terms of priorities, which is not right, imo. Personally, I wouldn't stand for that attitude, but if you have just dealt with this behavior in the past and not had her realize any sort of consequence for it, then you will really have to upset the applecart to inact any sort of change. It all comes down to what you are willing to do, to make her realize this isn't OK....


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## Divinely Favored

If she still chooses to go take a chunk of money and a week and take kids to Disney World the day before she fly's back.


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## lifeistooshort

Please correct me if this is wrong but I sense two issues here much deeper than a solo trip.

One is that your wife, right or wrong, feels she's sacrificed more for the family. The other is that you two aren't particularly connected emotionally. 

You might think your are but your wife doesn't. I know I wouldn't want to be away from my hb for 4 weeks; even if you put your foot down and get the trip cancelled you're still going to have the underlying issues.

You say you travel a lot for work, and I dislike what's being thrown out here about how work trips aren't vacations. Yes, they kind of are; true you're away from home but you're also away from home responsibilities. Beyond that different people will view it differently; some people really like work trips while others don't. My hb loves work travel, so while you might not think it's that great your wife might really like to do it. 

So why do you think your wife wants 4 weeks away from you? How much time do you spend v together and how close do you think you are? 

Is staying home something your wife really wanted and continued to be happy doing over the years? A lot of women aren't that happy staying home even if it's something that's agreed upon or they thought they wanted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married&Confused

she probably went about this all wrong but take a step back for a minute. whether you're going on a business trip or not your wife is staying home alone with the kids and without you. you admit that you do extended business trips a couple times a year. lets say over the past five years that's 10 trips. 10 trips in five years vs her 3 trips over 25 years.

yeah i know... you bring in the money. it's mostly business. but it's still HER home alone with the kids.

she should have asked and you should have said yes if she did.


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## Tortdog

Divinely Favored said:


> If she still chooses to go take a chunk of money and a week and take kids to Disney World the day before she fly's back.


You know, I think I am going to do that. Just take some time off and go have fun with the babies. We live Disney World and we could do Universal as well. And there would be zero guilt on the spending.


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## Tortdog

lifeistooshort said:


> One is that your wife, right or wrong, feels she's sacrificed more for the family. The other is that you two aren't particularly connected emotionally.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are correct that there is a gap in emotional attachment between the two of us. I think she could live without me tomorrow. It would kill me to live without her. 

Hence I hear what others say as not being needy and just moving on with other alternatives and live her lifestyle as opposed to resenting her choices. 

Maybe her view will change once the kids are all gone. Part of me wonders, though, as to whether we really have anything when we are empty nesters. 

Boxpin suggested that I support her this time and let her know it would be nice if next time she included me in the plan (now there's a guilt trip). I'm not sure I can be authentic while saying that, but I lean that way. 

So next time she goes rogue and starts her independent streak despite my contrary views, I clearly lay out before her final decision of the past and what this will bring. I be starkly clear that this is a no go.


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## Tortdog

Maybe. I need to be supportive but at the same time she needs to find ways to get what she needs without taking expensive breaks from the marital relationship, don't you think? 



Married&Confused said:


> .
> 
> she should have asked and you should have said yes if she did.


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## Tortdog

I am so tempted to take one poster's advice and tell my wife that I found a live in nanny for the kids while she is gone. 










Or I could print out a spread of them and out them on the counter and ask my wife to pick one. 

I Googled "hot nanny"...


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## lifeistooshort

Tortdog said:


> You are correct that there is a gap in emotional attachment between the two of us. I think she could live without me tomorrow. It would kill me to live without her.
> 
> Hence I hear what others say as not being needy and just moving on with other alternatives and live her lifestyle as opposed to resenting her choices.
> 
> Maybe her view will change once the kids are all gone. Part of me wonders, though, as to whether we really have anything when we are empty nesters.
> 
> Boxpin suggested that I support her this time and let her know it would be nice if next time she included me in the plan (now there's a guilt trip). I'm not sure I can be authentic while saying that, but I lean that way.
> 
> So next time she goes rogue and starts her independent streak despite my contrary views, I clearly lay out before her final decision of the past and what this will bring. I be starkly clear that this is a no go.



What do you suppose causes the emotional disconnect? Since, according to you, being apart would bother you more than her, we can assume that your needs have been filled to a greater extent then hers. What needs of hers do you think haven't been filled? 

I think differing emotional needs are common and often the higher emotional need partner doesn't get their needs filled, much like the higher sexual need partner. 

Have you given any thought to how you might try to shrink your emotional gap? Have you discussed that with her? 

The trip is a symptom of a much bigger issue and stopping it won't solve anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mike11

Are you guys Serious ?, as much as I want to consider business trips as Vacations (I wished) they are far from it, until last year I was extensively traveling, at least 3 weeks of the month, these are NOT vacations by far, very early starts, intensive days, late finishes, for weeks t the time, you are on your client/company dime and cannot "Vacation" 

In fact long weeks of loneliness in a small hotel room, no family or company,far far from Vacation i would say, My wife had never even dare bringing this up as "free time", these Business trips are exhausting and many of my co workers left due to mental fatigue 

These trips are far far from being vacations


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## Tortdog

lifeistooshort said:


> I think differing emotional needs are common and often the higher emotional need partner doesn't get their needs filled, much like the higher sexual need partner.
> 
> Have you given any thought to how you might try to shrink your emotional gap? Have you discussed that with her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now that opens a can of worms. Real quick on the sexual, for most of our marriage we lived with as clinically celibate (3 to 4 times per year). The problem was not great sex but when we did she was so fulfilled that she didn't "need" it again for months. Being a mom just sacked the life out of her and I was billing tons of hours. (This was a past issue that we have sense fixed.) 

I think she became emotionally exhausted and the last thing she needed when I came home was to connect. She needed me to watch the kids to give her a break. 

Her emotional needs are met by a good book and silence. So I add to her stress where she feels she has one more person's needs to fulfill. 

So I think she sees me as a burden. 

I think her dream party er is someone who will stand silently by her, lift her burdens, and smile.


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## Tortdog

Mike11 said:


> These trips are far far from being vacations


While I do agree with you, I learned just in the last two years that on a long trip a weekend away helped get me through. While in India for 4 weeks this year, I took one weekend with my business associates and we all went to Sri Lanka for the weekend. That was a great respite and was a mini-vacation. But on shorter trips, there is no time for that.

Note: One person stayed behind at the hotel that weekend. My wife would have not been mad at me had I done the same. She was not happy that I was in Sri Lanka without her.


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## ChargingCharlie

My wife is going on a trip with some girlfriends in June and I'm honestly looking forward to her leaving - kids and I can have some fun without stressed out Mommy around (although, to be fair, she's usually on her phone/computer playing games while the kids do their own thing or watch TV).


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## MrsAldi

Tortdog said:


> I am so tempted to take one poster's advice and tell my wife that I found a live in nanny for the kids while she is gone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or I could print out a spread of them and out them on the counter and ask my wife to pick one.
> 
> I Googled "hot nanny"...


I suggested this, but don't hold me accountable if things get worse for you! 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Tortdog

ChargingCharlie said:


> My wife is going on a trip with some girlfriends in June and I'm honestly looking forward to her leaving - kids and I can have some fun without stressed out Mommy around (although, to be fair, she's usually on her phone/computer playing games while the kids do their own thing or watch TV).


My wife is never on the electronics. She has devoted every ounce of energy to our kids., often at my expense. 

She is the best mom in the world. I'm working on the spouse bit.

I think that is one reason I am lower on the priority pole than the kids and it shows by her actions. It is not out of spite. She just is not in the same space.


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## Satya

Just my experience, but on my business trips, I never have time to see sights. I'm working on site for 10 hours, getting dinner, then going back to my room to continue working. Twice I've gone on a business trip while having to take a remote course exam. I barely slept. The most relaxing thing I did was to take my laptop down and sit in a corner of the hotel bar with a glass of wine... And work! 

I would love to get some sightseeing time in when I travel, but that's not realistic for me personally. I guess some of you have a different experience that I envy somewhat! 

Oh and when I come home, the house looks like a bomb hit it, power tools everywhere, Mt. Laundromore in the corner, sink full of dishes and garbage full of paper plates. 

Vacation... Lol!


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## NobodySpecial

Mike11 said:


> Are you guys Serious ?, as much as I want to consider business trips as Vacations (I wished) they are far from it, until last year I was extensively traveling, at least 3 weeks of the month, these are NOT vacations by far, very early starts, intensive days, late finishes, for weeks t the time, you are on your client/company dime and cannot "Vacation"
> 
> In fact long weeks of loneliness in a small hotel room, no family or company,far far from Vacation i would say, My wife had never even dare bringing this up as "free time", these Business trips are exhausting and many of my co workers left due to mental fatigue
> 
> These trips are far far from being vacations


If you are travelling internationally, you get the zillion hour flight, the fight to find potable water, the inevitable pukies. It is a great time! Oh. And suits. Who invented suits? They should be shot.


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## GuyInColorado

Tortdog said:


> I am so tempted to take one poster's advice and tell my wife that I found a live in nanny for the kids while she is gone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or I could print out a spread of them and out them on the counter and ask my wife to pick one.
> 
> I Googled "hot nanny"...


Hire this one.... she sleeps with husbands!


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## ChargingCharlie

Tortdog said:


> My wife is never on the electronics. She has devoted every ounce of energy to our kids., often at my expense.
> 
> She is the best mom in the world. I'm working on the spouse bit.
> 
> I think that is one reason I am lower on the priority pole than the kids and it shows by her actions. It is not out of spite. She just is not in the same space.


That happened to us early on - all energies devoted to the kids. This caused major stress because this caused her to get overly worked up over little things - these are issues that several years later still linger.


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## Mike11

Tortdog said:


> My wife is never on the electronics. She has devoted every ounce of energy to our kids., often at my expense.
> 
> She is the best mom in the world. I'm working on the spouse bit.
> 
> I think that is one reason I am lower on the priority pole than the kids and it shows by her actions. It is not out of spite. She just is not in the same space.


oh boy this sounds so familiar :frown2:


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## MarriedTex

Tortdog said:


> While I do agree with you, I learned just in the last two years that on a long trip a weekend away helped get me through. While in India for 4 weeks this year, I took one weekend with my business associates and we all went to Sri Lanka for the weekend. That was a great respite and was a mini-vacation. But on shorter trips, there is no time for that.
> 
> Note: One person stayed behind at the hotel that weekend. My wife would have not been mad at me had I done the same. She was not happy that I was in Sri Lanka without her.


And here's the crux of the dispute. You're looking at it through different lenses. She's looking at it as a matter of "time at home." You're looking at the resources as "amount of money" spent.

You spent four weeks away from home this year. Whether on company dime or not, she had to mind the home front on her own without any help from you for a month. From a time perspective, she feels that she's "entitled" to this time away. You set the standard of being away for four weeks. To argue now that such time away harms the relationship is a bit disingenuous.

From her perspective, there's nothing different between your trip to India and her trip to Europe. She was left holding the bag on the homefront. Now, she's doing the same to you.

Remember, her most valuable resource is time. She's sees your time away as a treat for you and a drain for her. Money is virtually immaterial to her in this discussion. It's irrelevant because you make sure the bills always get paid. 

The fact that you focus on the money side of this equation illustrates that you really don't understand what her motivation is here. She sees this as righting the imbalance of time commitment to the homefront. In a way, she's "making you pay" for all your time away. She's proving to you that she can abandon the family, too. See how you like them apples. 

I'm not saying that she is right. What I am saying is that you have no empathy for her position. And she has little empathy for yours. But if you think this is a conversation about how to spend money, man, you're barking up the wrong tree.


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## Tortdog

MarriedTex said:


> She sees this as righting the imbalance of time commitment to the homefront. In a way, she's "making you pay" for all your time away. She's proving to you that she can abandon the family, too. See how you like them apples.


You might be right but I doubt it. This arose before the option to join our daughter was even considered. Early on I advised that flying to the UK at a cost of $1500 for a three hour moment with her friend was absurd. I argued we find a different time or that her friend was not being realistic. 

But subconsciously she might be justifying the extent sion the way you see it. 

As a consequence, I turned down a 3 week trip to London for business, advising that I was not available. Now my wife is upset because she feels I am risking my career and should be mixing with the top people across the globe. I just told her that I am tired of traveling. What I didn't tell her is that I am tired of her using a business trip against me.


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## 225985

Tortdog said:


> My wife is never on the electronics. She has devoted every ounce of energy to our kids., often at my expense.
> 
> She is the best mom in the world. I'm working on the spouse bit.
> 
> I think that is one reason I am lower on the priority pole than the kids and it shows by her actions. It is not out of spite. She just is not in the same space.


It is probable if this continues you will be divorced as soon as the kids leave home, if not sooner. 

I did not read every post, but if you are not stepping up to help with the kids, you need to do that. And your wife needs to back off on making the kids the center of the universe. That makes you just a paycheck.


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## 225985

Tortdog said:


> As a consequence, I turned down a 3 week trip to London for business, advising that I was not available. Now my wife is upset because she feels I am risking my career and should be mixing with the top people across the globe. I just told her that I am tired of traveling. What I didn't tell her is that I am tired of her using a business trip against me.



*Here is your chance to tell her that she and the kids are more important than money. * Of course, if she only wants you for the money, then she wants your career to do well - especially for later spousal support and child support. Plus she might like if you are not around.


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## Marduk

MarriedTex said:


> And here's the crux of the dispute. You're looking at it through different lenses. She's looking at it as a matter of "time at home." You're looking at the resources as "amount of money" spent.
> 
> You spent four weeks away from home this year. Whether on company dime or not, she had to mind the home front on her own without any help from you for a month. From a time perspective, she feels that she's "entitled" to this time away. You set the standard of being away for four weeks. To argue now that such time away harms the relationship is a bit disingenuous.
> 
> From her perspective, there's nothing different between your trip to India and her trip to Europe. She was left holding the bag on the homefront. Now, she's doing the same to you.
> 
> Remember, her most valuable resource is time. She's sees your time away as a treat for you and a drain for her. Money is virtually immaterial to her in this discussion. It's irrelevant because you make sure the bills always get paid.
> 
> The fact that you focus on the money side of this equation illustrates that you really don't understand what her motivation is here. She sees this as righting the imbalance of time commitment to the homefront. In a way, she's "making you pay" for all your time away. She's proving to you that she can abandon the family, too. See how you like them apples.
> 
> I'm not saying that she is right. What I am saying is that you have no empathy for her position. And she has little empathy for yours. But if you think this is a conversation about how to spend money, man, you're barking up the wrong tree.


Insightful.


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## Marduk

Tortdog said:


> You might be right but I doubt it. This arose before the option to join our daughter was even considered. Early on I advised that flying to the UK at a cost of $1500 for a three hour moment with her friend was absurd. I argued we find a different time or that her friend was not being realistic.
> 
> But subconsciously she might be justifying the extent sion the way you see it.
> 
> As a consequence, I turned down a 3 week trip to London for business, advising that I was not available. Now my wife is upset because she feels I am risking my career and should be mixing with the top people across the globe. I just told her that I am tired of traveling. What I didn't tell her is that I am tired of her using a business trip against me.


That is a terrific opening to a crucial conversation that you must have, and handle the right way.

"Wife, I'm confused. You want me to go away on business for my career. Yet you seem to want to spend the money I make having that career on being away from me more. That leaves me thinking our marriage is not in a good place."

Or, as I said, do what she does. 

Her response to you going away on your own for fun could be:
"Great! See you whenever you get back" (alarm bells)
"Wait, you were just gone" ("but, you want to be away for a month, I didn't think spending time together mattered")
"How could you spend money on this?" ("You're spending a lot of money on a personal trip, why can't I?")

And so on.


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## Mclane

MarriedTex said:


> I'm not saying that she is right. What I am saying is that you have no empathy for her position. And she has little empathy for yours. But if you think this is a conversation about how to spend money, man, you're barking up the wrong tree.


This guy's good.


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## lifeistooshort

Tortdog said:


> While I do agree with you, I learned just in the last two years that on a long trip a weekend away helped get me through. While in India for 4 weeks this year, I took one weekend with my business associates and we all went to Sri Lanka for the weekend. That was a great respite and was a mini-vacation. But on shorter trips, there is no time for that.
> 
> Note: One person stayed behind at the hotel that weekend. My wife would have not been mad at me had I done the same. She was not happy that I was in Sri Lanka without her.


One could argue that if she's upset you went to sri lanka without her she wants to slender quality time with you. 

Maybe her trip serves the dual purpose of seeing her friend/your daughter and paying you back. 

Ironic because so many here are suggesting you pay her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

MarriedTex said:


> And here's the crux of the dispute. You're looking at it through different lenses. She's looking at it as a matter of "time at home." You're looking at the resources as "amount of money" spent.
> 
> You spent four weeks away from home this year. Whether on company dime or not, she had to mind the home front on her own without any help from you for a month. From a time perspective, she feels that she's "entitled" to this time away. *You set the standard of being away for four weeks. To argue now that such time away harms the relationship is a bit disingenuous.*
> 
> From her perspective, there's nothing different between your trip to India and her trip to Europe. She was left holding the bag on the homefront. Now, she's doing the same to you.
> 
> Remember, her most valuable resource is time. She's sees your time away as a treat for you and a drain for her. Money is virtually immaterial to her in this discussion. It's irrelevant because you make sure the bills always get paid.
> 
> The fact that you focus on the money side of this equation illustrates that you really don't understand what her motivation is here. She sees this as righting the imbalance of time commitment to the homefront. In a way, she's "making you pay" for all your time away. She's proving to you that she can abandon the family, too. See how you like them apples.
> 
> I'm not saying that she is right. What I am saying is that you have no empathy for her position. And she has little empathy for yours. But if you think this is a conversation about how to spend money, man, you're barking up the wrong tree.



The bolded is absolutely correct, but really the whole post is great.. It's what I was sort of implying with my payback comment but is so much better.

If 4 weeks away is bad for a marriage then what difference does it make if it's business related?

Lack of empathy is a natural consequence of an emotional gap.

When my husband was looking for a job he interviewed for one that would have required him to travel for weeks at a time. He didn't bother to tell me because he knew I'd hit the roof, and fortunately for him he didn't get it and got a local one.

But our marriage would have suffered if he'd taken a job like that.


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## norajane

Tortdog said:


> You might be right but I doubt it. This arose before the option to join our daughter was even considered. Early on I advised that flying to the UK at a cost of $1500 for a three hour moment with her friend was absurd. I argued we find a different time or that her friend was not being realistic.
> 
> But subconsciously she might be justifying the extent sion the way you see it.
> 
> As a consequence, I turned down a 3 week trip to London for business, advising that I was not available. Now my wife is upset because she feels I am risking my career and should be mixing with the top people across the globe. I just told her that I am tired of traveling. What I didn't tell her is that I am tired of her using a business trip against me.


How much business travel do you do? Do you often do these 3 and 4 week trips? Do you spend more time away from home than you do at home?


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## Tortdog

norajane said:


> How much business travel do you do? Do you often do these 3 and 4 week trips? Do you spend more time away from home than you do at home?


The last few years, I have spent 3-4 weeks abroad twice a year. She loves the miles and the hotel points. 

She never complains about it, only when I started to go with friends on a side jaunt. 

And she burns all my hotel points.


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## DDudley14

Tortdog said:


> She never complains about it, only when I started to go with friends on a side jaunt.


This is very telling to her state of mind......

So it's ok as long as it's all business, but she has a problem if you try to get a small amount of fun out of it?

Her getting upset at you for turning down the London trip because "it could hurt your career." Leads this girl to think she only sees you as a paycheck to support her and the children. Hence the reason you are near the bottom of her priority list. 

I'd let her go on this trip and have her fun...

When she returns, I'd have a serious conversation with about priorities in the marriage and insist on counseling to root out the issues between you too.

Otherwise it may be time to draw up THE papers. From a female perspective, this can go one of 2 ways if she refuses counseling: 1) She biedes her time until the kids are on their own and files the D herself. or 2) She eventually has an affair and then leaves. 

I see #1 as the most probable as she will want that chunk of your paycheck after the D and she'll want it on her terms. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Tortdog

I have wondered if that was her plan. No way she has an affair. 

I'm hoping it is just a twisted view of what is right in a relationship.


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## Evinrude58

Yes, I agree that you don't seem very high on her priority list, but your paycheck seems to be very important. What loving wife abandons her family for a MONTH while she romps in Europe??? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RClawson

Now there is so much more clarity. You are in a sexless marriage. There is no intimate connection between you. It is obvious you really love her but she is like my best friends wife who says of her "I know she loves me but she just does not like me very much".

That may be ok for you but recognize it for what it is. If I read your earlier post correctly you brought this up again to discuss and define your position again and it sounds like she went all pouty high school girl with you. There is no doubt that there is an emotional gulf between the two of you but her inability to communicate and process as a mature adult would be incredibly maddening. 

This tit for tat vacation crap I hear people spewing is absolutely absurd. This is about a husband who asked his wife not to go on extended vacations without the family and she continues to be flippant about that reasonable request. The money really is not the issue here. It may be to you TD but that should be the least of your concern.

You two are disconnected. You are screaming for companionship and she could care less. I have been there I know. Forget all the petty suggestions about get aways with the kids (do it because you want to) and use that money to get MC or IC for yourself. You two need way more help than the talking heads here can provide.


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## RClawson

By the way my W just called. She left for a week long business trip (with her favorite colleague) back east. They just got back from dinner and I asked how the conference was going. She replied that there no meetings today so they were just taking in the sites and goofing around. Now I could care less but I do not think this is what her employer believes she is doing.


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## frusdil

Tortdog said:


> My wife is never on the electronics. She has devoted every ounce of energy to our kids., often at my expense.
> 
> She is the best mom in the world. I'm working on the spouse bit.
> 
> I think that is one reason I am lower on the priority pole than the kids and it shows by her actions. It is not out of spite. She just is not in the same space.


I've never understood why so many women do this...put all their energy into the children and forget about their husbands. It's almost like they think their husbands are wallets with d!cks.

I get that mothers love their children fiercely, but their husband is the reason they have their children in the first place.



lifeistooshort said:


> If 4 weeks away is bad for a marriage then what difference does it make if it's business related?


A business related trip doesn't cost the family thousands of dollars. In this case, the OP's wife wants him to go abroad to further his career (earn more), she's p!ssed at him for turning down a trip to London.


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## lifeistooshort

frusdil said:


> I've never understood why so many women do this...put all their energy into the children and forget about their husbands. It's almost like they think their husbands are wallets with d!cks.
> 
> I get that mothers love their children fiercely, but their husband is the reason they have their children in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> A business related trip doesn't cost the family thousands of dollars. In this case, the OP's wife wants him to go abroad to further his career (earn more), she's p!ssed at him for turning down a trip to London.


That's true, but he keeps going back and forth between the money and 4 weeks just being too long to be away. 

So which is it? The money or the time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

Both. Wouldn't it be both for anybody?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kina

First off, I don't think there is anything wrong with your wife going on a 'girls-only' vacation. I have a hard time understanding why it bothers you when you mention that you can actually afford it? So, let get this straight, even if you guys can afford her trip, does it bother you that she is spending too much money or is it more personal like 'why is she going on a vacation without me' type of thing? if your problem with her going on vacation is the money, then you should be able to sit down like two adults and have an open conversation about it. Explain without offending her that you would rather see that money being spent on you guys going on a family vacation rather than her taking a Europe trip. Now here is your second option if the first one doesn't work. tell your wife that if she goes to Europe without you, then you will take a trip to somewhere without her and you will spend the equal amount of money that she is spending on her trip, be serious about it. From what I read your wife sound a little tad spoiled and the best way to handle that is to be firm and assertive about where you stand. Good Luck!


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## Tortdog

Evinrude58 said:


> Both. Wouldn't it be both for anybody?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Both. I make a lot of money but I hate wasting it. For 1800, I could have gotten her business class at the right time. 1800 for economy is ludicrous. I could fly her to Singapore for 650 economy (boy would that be a miserable flight). 

In the end, it's more important to have the emotional connection. Money dies with you.


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## Evinrude58

Kina said:


> First off, I don't think there is anything wrong with your wife going on a 'girls-only' vacation. I have a hard time understanding why it bothers you when you mention that you can actually afford it? So, let get this straight, even if you guys can afford her trip, does it bother you that she is spending too much money or is it more personal like 'why is she going on a vacation without me' type of thing? if your problem with her going on vacation is the money, then you should be able to sit down like two adults and have an open conversation about it. Explain without offending her that you would rather see that money being spent on you guys going on a family vacation rather than her taking a Europe trip. Now here is your second option if the first one doesn't at I read your wife sound a little tad spoiled and the best way to handle that is to be firm and assertive about where you stand. Good Luck!


 How can he spend an equal amount of money on a trip and that be justice when he's the one paying for it ALL????
She'd laugh and say, ok! It's a great idea if she a tiLly contributed to the family money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Deidre*

The problem doesn't seem like the vacation away without you - sounds more like your wife doesn't respect you. That's where the focus needs to be and if your marriage is going to work for happily ever after....she needs to start respecting you. And you need to feel you deserve it.


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## Evinrude58

Yes, I agree. The lack of respecting your feelings and the effort you've put in to taking care of the family by working outside the home---- that's the problem. She did this and spent the money before even discussing it with you or at least getting your approval. Going on a vacation wasn't good enough, either. It had to be this long, expensive thing away from you and your kids, and saddling YOU with the bill and all the responsibility. I can tell you'd do anything for your wife if she'd just show a little respect and a smidgen of gratitude. 
You are right to be angry. I'd still consider cutting access. She'd freak out. So.....tell her to keep her tongue like she expected you to do when she returned from the trip.
Entitled. Big time. 

Never a lot of fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marische

Tortdog said:


> Here is an issue that many write about but I still struggle with it. My wife is going on a month long vacation to Europe without me. I work and can't take that long. Also, the time she is going is the height of the season... The ticket is north of $1800, with at least another $1500 for living expenses. We can afford it but I see that as an individual draining the family budget without thinking of the family. I would rather save this money for a family vacation, or a couple retreat.
> 
> She says she needs her time with a friend in Europe. The friend has a special occasion coming up so we can't pick a more reasonable time. Because she is going for to Europe for some girl time with her friend, she asked about sticking around another 4 weeks with our daughter who is spending a month to visit friends in Europe on her own dime as a post graduation treat. I can see a weekend with the girls, and spending a reasonable chuck of change but $3000 for a month trip through Europe without your spouse seems selfish.
> 
> I get the mother daughter joy, but honestly it really bothers me that she would choose to spend so much money and time away. I would never suggest doing this. I would never draw that much money from the family budget for "my" trip and leave my spouse behind. So there is some emotional hurt there as well.
> 
> This is the third time that she has gone on an expensive vacation without me in our 25 years of marriage. The first two times it created a lot of fighting. She went regardless. This time I reminded her how this hurt me, but she needs this and is not changing her mind. So I am trying to be supportive (I will make work adjustments to watch the youngest kids while she is gone) and I try to out on a smile.
> 
> Honestly, though, I want nothing to do with her right now. I want to just focus on the kids and avoid conversations where she and the daughter talk excitedly about this trip (that I am paying for as the principal earner) and avoid the situation altogether but that risks me coming across at sulking or being pouty (not attractive).
> 
> I know about self-validation. But choosing to do this over and over when you know the effect it has on your spouse makes me question her value system. But then she might see me as needy. Fine, go have some fun for a weekend or that but more than $3000 of our money on yourself and leaving the rest of us behind?
> 
> How do you cope effectively without harming the relationship?
> 
> I am trying to be mature and not overreact by spending $3k on a trip for myself or canceling family vacations planned going forward because she spent the money on herself. I know... Childish.


Is her girlfriend (travel companion) married as well? 
I think you should allow her to travel and enjoy herself.


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## Tortdog

Marische said:


> Is her girlfriend (travel companion) married as well?
> I think you should allow her to travel and enjoy herself.


Her GF is single and never been in a LT relationship. She travels the world. I get that the GF might not clue into the expectations of a committed relationship. I don't find fault with the GF. She's not in the same space. 

We talked last night. My wife is confused because she thought that I was supporting the decision when I felt I was clear. She expressed concern on the price but once she felt I had agreed then she didn't flinch. 

So I am chalking that up to misunderstanding. We agreed to be more clear with each other going forward. In this case, the damage is done. 

I advised that I am still hurt that she thought a 4 week vacation away from the spouse would ever be a good idea. I have supported her multiple weekend trips with GFs but a month in Europe should never have been acceptable in my mind. In fact, the mere fact that she thought it might be okay and even asked screams that I am low on her priorities. She doesn't understand that and believes we are completely okay and committed to each other so there remains a gap. 

So I support her in this trip. I am going to help her plan and figure out the best vacation while she is gone. Then from this point forward, we have an agreement to work on the mutual agreement and not doing things that upset the other partner. 

And I am probably going to Disney World with the babies. I am not sure if I am going to tell her....


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## Evinrude58

I don't know what's really going on in your relationship. It may actually be really great. She may just totally want to go with her friend and rightly thinks that you and her have such a strong marriage, and that you are such a strong kind of a man, that it's no big deal for her to go enjoy herself. There may be no ill intention of getting some attention from other men or anything else. 
However, my thoughts are that you are not really accepting that she knows darn well that you didn't want this. You made it clear. She's gaslighting you and making you think there was just a "misunderstanding", in my opinion. SHE KNOWS--- there was no "misunderstanding" and you and she both know that in reality.
And now, she is going to experience NO CONSEQUENCES, and therefore you are going to be resentful over what's happened now, and it's going to build in the future WHEN it happens again. I don't know what your reaction should be. Maybe taking a little more control of the purse strings by doing some bank work so that she doesn't have all the money available to make decisions like this without your approval. I think you are scared of the repercussions of that action. If so, maybe your wife is taking more and more power in this marriage because you are afraid to lose her. THAT, the being afraid to lose her, is what I think is the beginnings of a problem in the marriage. 

I thought I read a post that described your marriage as "sexless". Is that true? Do you feel that the sex side, the intimacy side, the closeness side, the friendship side--- are all of these what you feel they should be? If there's no sex, I worry that there may be more to this.

Fact: she is going on a month long romp in Europe at your expense and with a single woman. There's no "supervision" of any kind. In a good marriage, there shouldn't be. I get that.

Fact: She now says it was all a misunderstanding. 

Fact: You are very resentful of this, and rightfully so.

Fact: You are allowing this and the only consequence you have in mind is you taking the kids to Disneyworld and are afraid to tell her. Why? Why should she care? She's still getting what she wanted, and you're still going to be paying for it.

Not trying to stir you up. Not saying that all this is a huge deal. I'm saying it is a big deal for you, because you're angry about it. I'm saying that what your wife is doing is not all that indicative of a marriage where she is really into her husband and spending time with him and making him a priority, AND is quite an entitled lady to do all this without a care in the world.
So I suggest you do a little researching to find out what is not perfect in your marriage and find a solution to the spending by your wife of large sums of money WITHOUT your approval. And I hope you do this in a manner that shows strength, but also love, so that it is only a change in the way things operate and not a bone of contention in your marriage.

I hope you have the kind of marriage that is so strong there are no worries of infidelity, no worries of your wife's feelings for you not being 100%, and this is just a tiny blip in the radar of your marriage that rights itself.

Good luck


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## MrsAldi

Tortdog said:


> Both. I make a lot of money but I hate wasting it. For 1800, I could have gotten her business class at the right time. 1800 for economy is ludicrous. I could fly her to Singapore for 650 economy (boy would that be a miserable flight).
> 
> In the end, it's more important to have the emotional connection. Money dies with you.


 @Tortdog some rapper once said "the more money you got, the more problems you get" . your wife is a good mother & you love her a lot. My husband comes from money but we live on his salary, he's fiercely independent because he knows all the problems money causes. If you want the emotional connection you're just going to have to drop the resentment regarding the money situation. Let your wife have the trip. And then discuss things when she's back. I doubt she'll cheat as you sound like a good husband. And then all of you have a lovely trip to Disney when things are in a better place. But you have to stop harbouring the resentment over the cost etc. Like you said when it's all over (we all die in the end), you can't bring it with you. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

So if she was footing the entire bill herself that would be ok?

Of not then how is it different from you being gone for a month? Or if she had a job that paid it would be ok?

In the end you're apart for a month either way.

Is it that you consider what she's doing a vacation but not your work trips?

Distance is distance no matter what the cause, and both will screw up your connection. 

I'm trying to understand the root of what's bothering you and I suspect it's the lack of connection, which has nothing to do with money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

Well, I'm totally against GNO and girlfriend vacations anyway (and the male equivalent as well). So many end in cheating.


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## WorkingOnMe

This has got to be one of the most passive aggressive posters I've seen in a while.


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## Tortdog

To me, it's both but in the end it is the feeling of being a low priority in her life. 

She and I have talked about this. She feels that she prioritizes me exactly as she should and her feelings are completely normal. She has made clear that if it is me or the kids, she would always pick the kids. Presume no bad actors on either the kids or the spouse. I prioritize her above all else on this Earth. 

I know that there are many in marriage that feel one way or the other. 

My view is that if you know that your absence will cause strife in a relationship then you don't do it. I WISH that she felt as I and that I was prioritized above the kids. But I am not. 

So as opposed to judging her for that and being pissed off, I have to find a way to be emotionally happy with her feelings (or leave her or force her to change) . 

I don't think know that is being a doormat. That doesn't define one. The two just have different views and feelings. The doormat comes in where she knows own that this hurts and does so regardless. She has explained that there was confusion and she felt that she had my support. So we move on. 

She has also agreed to work in a mutual fashion going forward, though she has concerns that my views may constrain her need for independence (she really sees no issue vacationing away from a spouse for one month). There is a potential for future conflict but if we approach it right I think we will be fine.


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## Tortdog

On the money, I told her that now she is clear on how much I opposed this she had best not cancel the trip. She wasted $1850 on a non-refundable economy class ticket. There is no getting that back. So go and make the best of it and it better be a heck of a great trip for that outrageous air fare to London


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## MrsAldi

Tortdog said:


> On the money, I told her that now she is clear on how much I opposed this she had best not cancel the trip. She wasted 1850 on a non-refundable economy class ticket. There is no getting that back. So go and make the best of it and it better be a he'll of a great trip for that outrageous air fare to London


Please just let it go. It's only money. Don't ruin your marriage over resentment over money. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## 225985

Tortdog said:


> On the money, I told her that now she is clear on how much I opposed this she had best not cancel the trip. She wasted 1850 on a non-refundable economy class ticket. There is no getting that back. So go and make the best of it and it better be a he'll of a great trip for that outrageous air fare to London


Huh? So 4 weeks of your wife's time with you is not worth $1850?


----------



## Tortdog

Evinrude. You wrote a great post and put time I to that so I am going to parse:



Evinrude58 said:


> what's really going on in your relationship. It may actually be really great.


It is solid now. Has been bad in the past but I think we are now better than ever. That is one reason why this hurt. I thought that we had finally hit the perfect groove and I felt betrayed, again. 



Evinrude58 said:


> may just totally want to go with her friend and rightly thinks that you and her have such a strong marriage, and that you are such a strong kind of a man, that it's no big deal for her to go enjoy herself. There may be no ill intention of getting some attention from other men or anything else. [


Exactly right. 



Evinrude58 said:


> you are not really accepting that she knows darn well that you didn't want this. You made it clear.


She pointed out a text that I sent her saying that is she burned 1500 to fly to London that I know of her and she would always regret not tagging onto that trip spending 4 weeks with her daughter who is already there. I know of my wife. She is closer to our oldest daughter than anyone or anything. I know she craves that though it hurts me. I told her she would regret coming home immediately and would likely resent me feeling I forced her home so I would support her if she burned the money to see her GF. 

She read that as I support flying to London when I did not. She failed to see that I only support her doing this because she would have huge regrets and likely resent me. She fails to see that I believe her prioritization of our daughter above me is a problem. 

So I get her confusion, and believe that she was not saying in her heart, screw you I am going anyway. 

But never again. 



Evinrude58 said:


> she is going to experience NO CONSEQUENCES, and therefore you are going to be resentful over what's happened now, and it's going to build in the future WHEN it happens again.


Simple. When it happens again if she does not factor in my views and work with me, such that we reach a mutually satisfactory decision, then she has chosen independence over me and I am out. 



Evinrude58 said:


> Maybe taking a little more control of the purse strings by doing some bank work so that she doesn't have all the money available to make decisions like this without your approval.


We changed that on Sunday with a mutual agreement. 



Evinrude58 said:


> thought I read a post that described your marriage as "sexless". Is that true? Do you feel that the sex side, the intimacy side, the closeness side, the friendship side--- are all of these what you feel they should be? If there's no sex, I worry that there may be more to this. [/QUOTE ]
> 
> Used to be true. We fixed that about 6 months ago and I plan to lay out how in another thread. We did that together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Evinrude58 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the kids to Disneyworld and are afraid to tell her. Why? Why should she care? She's still getting what she wanted, and you're still going to be paying for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Mock me but ever since someone suggested it, I really like the idea but I think my wife would be hurt and feel I was getting even when in HER heart she has done no wrong. Bit I really want to do it. Easier to ask forgiveness?
> 
> It goes against how I would want to be treated but the three of us would have a blast and always remember it. I am even thinking about tagging on a cruise out of Cape Canaveral.
> 
> Not sure I can do it.
Click to expand...


----------



## Tortdog

blueinbr said:


> Huh? So 4 weeks of your wife's time with you is not worth $1850?


So not getting the question.

In my view, there are so many resources and so much time. It is finite. So when one person withdraws from the bank, it forces choices that may not be the best ones. 

I would never waste money on an 1850 economy class ticket to London. I would take that same amount and fly around the world and I could do it. We would stop in Singapore, Africa and Europe for that same amount at the right time. 

So it is a needless waste. That's just my view. 

She doesn't care. She told me she would pay double to be at this GF's special moment. 

We are world's apart.

If this were money she earned and I was not seeing as part of the family budget, I wouldn't care, e.g., a bday gift from her dad. Blow it. Have fun. 

But reality is I busted my butt to earn that money and I think spending it requires consideration of my views. So she misunderstood. Next time won't happen.


----------



## 225985

Tortdog said:


> So not getting the question.


If being apart from your wife for 4 weeks was unacceptable, then she does not go on the trip you greatly opposed. You seems to have reluctantly conceded she can go on the trip because she spend $1850 on a non-refundable ticket and you do not want to lose that. To me that says the money is more important than the 4 weeks time with her.


----------



## Tortdog

blueinbr said:


> If being apart from your wife for 4 weeks was unacceptable, then she does not go on the trip you greatly opposed. You seems to have reluctantly conceded she can go on the trip because she spend $1850 on a non-refundable ticket and you do not want to lose that. To me that says the money is more important than the 4 weeks time with her.


I edited but am answering here. 

I have already resigned myself to the 4 weeks. I have got myself into the space. I have some ideas to have fun with the babies while she is gone and am going to make the most of it. 

And I know she would always resent me if she were forced to reverse course. That damage to the relationship would likely be more than the 4 week absence. 

Sucks we all don't feel the same way but when a 24 year old marries a 20 year old you don't figure this stuff out until much later (if at all).

Note: I have done all this typing and quoting on a tiny cell phone and am feeling might proud of myself....


----------



## Tortdog

Last time she and I flew to Europe we did Scotland, Ireland, London (and Chester), Paris and Rome for total airfare of less than $1,000/each. 

All in the timing with a sprinkle of creativity.


----------



## MrsAldi

Tortdog said:


> Last time she and I flew to Europe we did Scotland, Ireland, London (and Chester), Paris and Rome for total airfare of less than $1,000/each.
> 
> All in the timing with a sprinkle of creativity.


 @Tortdog you're good at planning trips on a budget  I wonder could me & the husband do it the same way traveling to the US from Ireland. We want to go somewhere on the east coast, but can't choose a place. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## norajane

Tortdog said:


> She has also agreed to work in a mutual fashion going forward, though she has concerns that my views may constrain her need for independence *(she really sees no issue vacationing away from a spouse for one month)*. There is a potential for future conflict but if we approach it right I think we will be fine.


She isn't the only one. 3 trips in 25 years, and this one is also including your daughter? Taht is hardly scandalous.

As I said, my mom spent a month traveling with my sister and her H in Europe, and my dad did not get all upset and feel like she was doing something wrong and impossible or unhealthy or disrespectful. And, OMG, is he old school! Old country type old school!

I travel without my fiance, and he does as well. We encourage each other to live life to the fullest.


> It is solid now. Has been bad in the past but I think we are now better than ever. That is one reason why this hurt. I thought that we had finally hit the perfect groove and I felt betrayed, again.


That is your spin. She does not see any betrayal here. What is she betraying, exactly?

You have to accept your wife does not see this as you do, so she is not deliberately trying to f*ck you over in some way. 25 years of raising kids does give a person some desire to have an adult life, although in this case, she is also traveling WITH your daughter, so it's not like she's even carelessly abandoning everyone.


----------



## lifeistooshort

So how is going on 4 week business trips prioritizing her? You can certainly argue that it's prioritizing the financial needs of the family, but I don't see how it prioritizes your relationship with her.

Forgive me but I'm really struggling with how you taking off for weeks is ok for the relationship but her dong it isn't. 

So what exactly demonstrates that she's a priority to you? 

Then in the same breath you say that you make a lot of money and it's no big deal since you can't take it with you but then you're upset about the money. 


Trip aside, what do you think she should be dong differently to prioritize you and how are you prioritizing her in ways that are important to her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## giddiot

You literally are more worried about money than your relationship with your wife. That my man is the worship of money in Gods eyes. You two are not in a marriage, she is into treating you as a servant and you are into treating her like like a business expense. I would throw away 2 grand any day if it meant saving my marriage, he'll all my money. What is money but a means to an end. You can't take it with you when you die. I don't know what to tell you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

Tortdog said:


> Evinrude. You wrote a great post and put time I to that so I am going to parse:
> 
> 
> 
> It is solid now. Has been bad in the past but I think we are now better than ever. That is one reason why this hurt. I thought that we had finally hit the perfect groove and I felt betrayed, again.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly right.
> 
> 
> 
> She pointed out a text that I sent her saying that is she burned 1500 to fly to London that I know of her and she would always regret not tagging onto that trip spending 4 weeks with her daughter who is already there. I know of my wife. She is closer to our oldest daughter than anyone or anything. I know she craves that though it hurts me. I told her she would regret coming home immediately and would likely resent me feeling I forced her home so I would support her if she burned the money to see her GF.
> 
> She read that as I support flying to London when I did not. She failed to see that I only support her doing this because she would have huge regrets and likely resent me. She fails to see that I believe her prioritization of our daughter above me is a problem.
> 
> So I get her confusion, and believe that she was not saying in her heart, screw you I am going anyway.
> 
> But never again.
> 
> 
> 
> Simple. When it happens again if she does not factor in my views and work with me, such that we reach a mutually satisfactory decision, then she has chosen independence over me and I am out.
> 
> 
> 
> We changed that on Sunday with a mutual agreement.
> 
> 
> 
> Evinrude58 said:
> 
> 
> 
> thought I read a post that described your marriage as "sexless". Is that true? Do you feel that the sex side, the intimacy side, the closeness side, the friendship side--- are all of these what you feel they should be? If there's no sex, I worry that there may be more to this. [/QUOTE ]
> 
> Used to be true. We fixed that about 6 months ago and I plan to lay out how in another thread. We did that together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mock me but ever since someone suggested it, I really like the idea but I think my wife would be hurt and feel I was getting even when in HER heart she has done no wrong. Bit I really want to do it. Easier to ask forgiveness?
> 
> It goes against how I would want to be treated but the three of us would have a blast and always remember it. I am even thinking about tagging on a cruise out of Cape Canaveral.
> 
> Not sure I can do it.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand much better now. I think letting her add on the daughter thing makes more sense and your thinking is correct. I think you should just let go of the anger if you can over the wasted money. I know how hard that is to do. And I feel like you've done all the right things. DOn't get the Disney thing and go without her. Go together and have a great time. You'll be the hero if you meet her with open arms and she had a great time in Europe and she sees you happy when she arrives. You'll get lots of sex, hopefully, LOL. You'll be the hero again if you all go to Disneyworld together. Life's too short to worry about the money if you can afford it, and as you've stated, you can always change the money situation if she keeps this up. As others have said, 3 trips alone in 25 years isn't all that bad. Enjoy your wife.
> I think you're an outstanding husband and Dad, and are doing a great job of thinking of her perspective on things.
> Sorry for sounding like I was mocking you. I just think out loud sometimes and don't filter.
> Good luck.
Click to expand...


----------



## AliceA

The whole part about thinking the friend should have scheduled her wedding to suit YOU and your need to get cheaper airfares was an eye opener to how you think about the world.

Also the fact that this is only the 3rd time in 25yrs she's had away, it's only $3000 in total for a trip around Europe which is really not a big problem for you financially (and pretty cheap for a trip around Europe imo), you've had plenty of trips to different countries for long periods of time for work but this still counts as trips away without family.

IMO, from what you've written here, she's a great mother, a great wife, and you come across as entirely too selfish.


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## lifeistooshort

Tortdog said:


> So not getting the question.
> 
> In my view, there are so many resources and so much time. It is finite. So when one person withdraws from the bank, it forces choices that may not be the best ones.
> 
> I would never waste money on an 1850 economy class ticket to London. I would take that same amount and fly around the world and I could do it. We would stop in Singapore, Africa and Europe for that same amount at the right time.
> 
> So it is a needless waste. That's just my view.
> 
> She doesn't care. She told me she would pay double to be at this GF's special moment.
> 
> We are world's apart.
> 
> If this were money she earned and I was not seeing as part of the family budget, I wouldn't care, e.g., a bday gift from her dad. Blow it. Have fun.
> 
> But reality is I busted my butt to earn that money and I think spending it requires consideration of my views. So she misunderstood. Next time won't happen.


So now you're contradicting yourself. According to this it is about the money. ....specifically your money. Not yours and hers, yours. 

She didn't bust her butt holding down the fort and raising your kids while you were running around the world so you could make this money?


This is part of the reason I'm struggling with your arguments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

I totally disagree with the premise that his business trips = her vacations. That's total bs. He MUST go on trips to support the family. It's no requirement for her to go romp all over Europe. He's not selfish at all. He even saw her perspective of wanting to do something fun with her daughter.
The guy is doing the best he can. She is the selfish one, as evidenced by her month long romp at her man's expense. It's easy to talk about how selfish he's being when he's doing the work of Earning a living and she buys 2k$ tickets without talking to him about it.

Way, way, way to hard on the guy footing the bill and raising kids while she's enjoying life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha

OP, your wife has put her friendship with this woman at a high priority. She feels that going on this trip supports that priority.


The real question is whether she prioritises this above your marriage or not. 


Without consequences you will never know. She has done it twice before and ignored your protests, and faced no consequences. Once was a girls' cruise and now, twice with this English friend! Why would she be worried about it this time ? She has nothing to fear. 

And she has been doing it even before you went on business trips so she can't use that as a justification. And she gets jealous if you go on (much shorter) business trips. She was angry that you were in Sri Lanka without her!!! Yet she is happy to do this without you. Talk about narcissism!!! Its all about her.


And its not like you don't plan good holidays for the two of you or your family. You do and she accepts those PLUS wants to then do her own thing. 


You are afraid to enforce consequences because of the damage it will do to your marriage going forward. 


Well my friend, the damage has already been done as can be seen in the tone of your posts. Now its a question of what you are prepared to put up with.


For those saying that she is not aware of this problem as being a problem - that is bull$h!t. She knows very well that you are not happy about it.


I understand where you are coming from but don't fully understand what is going through her mind. Does she feel that she is entitled to this? Does she feel that you should understand because this friend is that important to her ? Or does she simply not care what you feel and is putting her wants first ? Who knows - hard to tell from here but it sounds like she is a selfish, self-entitled and uncaring person. You summarised it when you said _"When I advised that this would harm our relationship she views that as my need conflicting with her need and her view trumped. That's the candid truth. She feels that she deserves this."_ Not someone I would want as a life partner - kids or no kids!


Going by what you have said the two of you have a weak emotional attachment. Also, she can live without you although you cannot live without her - she holds the power here. And you suspect that she would leave you in an instant once you are empty nesters. Add to this the absolutely ridiculous fact that you only have sex 3-4 times a year!!!! What the hell ?!?!?! None of this is good and portrays you as weak. Women do not respect weak men. And she is definitely not into you which is why she is happy to do as she pleases without a care in the world for you! By your own admission, she sees you as a burden!

Tortdog you need to grow a pair and stand up for yourself. It sounds like this marriage ended a long time ago and you have buried your head in the sand all this time.


----------



## Tortdog

MrsAldi said:


> @Tortdog you're good at planning trips on a budget  I wonder could me & the husband do it the same way traveling to the US from Ireland. We want to go somewhere on the east coast, but can't choose a place.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Message me and I will help you out. We are in Texas and it is more expensive. East Coast is cheap from the UK. 

We had a German family visit and they did over 4000 miles of national parks for under 3K.


----------



## MrsAldi

Tortdog said:


> Message me and I will help you out. We are in Texas and it is more expensive. East Coast is cheap from the UK.
> 
> We had a German family visit and they did over 4000 miles of national parks for under 3K.


Thank you. By the way Ireland is not part of the UK but I'll let you off since you're from Texas  

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

3 or 4 times a year?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog

breeze said:


> The whole part about thinking the friend should have scheduled her wedding to suit YOU and your need to get cheaper airfares was an eye opener to how you think about the world.


You are speculating and guessed wrong. This isn't a wedding where you have to plan and consider so many factors. This is a religious ceremony that could happen any day or month of the year. The friend has been bouncing dates around as she decides whether or not she is ready. She finally firmed up a date and it happened to be the most expensive travel season. 

I don't think for one minute the friend considered the cost. She travels all the time and she travels on miles. I think if she knew my wife spent 1800 to be there for a 3 hour ceremony that the friend would be shocked. 

Bottom line is my wife doesn't care about money for this special occasion. But I think it is reasonable for one friend to say to the other, "Hey, I know you have picked a date for your religious event, but the ticket price is sky high. Could we do it 2 weeks later when fares are down to 1200?"

And I would never expect a friend to take an 1800 financial hit just to be at a special event that could be any day of the week. I just wouldn't ask it but only mention would be nice but... Or I would offer to help pay if I wanted that person to be at my event. Or... I'd look at the calendar and make the cost less of a burden on others. That is just considerate of others. 

Bottom line is I don't think the friend was considering the cost, and my wife sure didn't care. Disconnect. 

I am all about memories but some planning is nice. This isn't a funeral where timing is a bit beyond our ability.


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## Tortdog

MrsAldi said:


> Thank you. By the way Ireland is not part of the UK but I'll let you off since you're from Texas
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


I thought that the Queen claimed it! 

I have only been to Dublin. Would love to get to the countryside.


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## Evinrude58

Something is not right here. Sex 3or 4 times a year and being away from you a month and you're worried she's gone after kids are older? I'm just asking? If this is true, you have far bigger problems than I thought. If it's true, you are absolutely nothing but a check to her. 
If it's not true, there's still likely more to this.
I believe she's wanting to go because she wants an excuse to go run and play, certainly not for a 3 hour religious ceremony. Has nothing to do with the event. The event just helps add more time to the vacation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tortdog

manfromlamancha said:


> You are afraid to enforce consequences because of the damage it will do to your marriage going forward.


I would agree with you but I believe that I confused my wife and I will show you the text. While I had strongly voiced that 1500 to travel to the UK for a 3 hour event was ridiculous, I know my wife felt differently. It was her friend, not mine. And she would not consider asking the friend to change the date to make the cost more reasonable. I would have. At that point, the friend waffles on when or whether to even do the event and time passed. When the friend finally decided and my wife wanted to go, she let me know she was going forward with her plans. She didn't ask. 

So I texted:

Your ticket is 1500. That's a lot of money. If you are spending that, then stay with [our daughter] . That is the same amount of money and will mean more to you and [our daughter] than the primary reason you are going. 

If you don't stay with [our daughter] after you already spent the money to be over there, you will always regret it

... 

My wife read that, clicked her heels and then bought the 1850 ticket. 

So I can see her view of being confused.


----------



## Tortdog

I probably should have never signaled my support. But it is hard for me to be an impediment to my wife fulfilling her emotional needs, even when it feels like I come up with the short stick.

But never again. Both are happy or we don't do it and if she claims I am selfish because I am unsupportive of her need to be away for such a long time she needs a new mate.

I honestly am not sure where she is on that as to her true feelings. Some here post that they see nothing wrong with a 4 week separation. It is healthy. 

I disagree, or at least it is not healthy for me.


----------



## MattMatt

Evinrude58 said:


> I totally disagree with the premise that his business trips = her vacations. That's total bs. He MUST go on trips to support the family. It's no requirement for her to go romp all over Europe. He's not selfish at all. He even saw her perspective of wanting to do something fun with her daughter.
> The guy is doing the best he can. She is the selfish one, as evidenced by her month long romp at her man's expense. It's easy to talk about how selfish he's being when he's doing the work of Earning a living and she buys 2k$ tickets without talking to him about it.
> 
> Way, way, way to hard on the guy footing the bill and raising kids while she's enjoying life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And he's a real swine to her! Did you know he gets to leave home and go to the office *every* day, Monday to Friday?

Gosh. He lives the life of Riley, that one!


----------



## MrsAldi

Tortdog said:


> I thought that the Queen claimed it!
> 
> I have only been to Dublin. Would love to get to the countryside.


The Queen loves Ireland. Pity they only let her come here once, even then there was riots. Lots of history there is. You can find out on your next visit! West coast of Ireland is nice but it's rains a lot. Always have an umbrella anywhere you go. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Mike11

Evinrude58 said:


> I totally disagree with the premise that his business trips = her vacations. That's total bs. He MUST go on trips to support the family. It's no requirement for her to go romp all over Europe. He's not selfish at all. He even saw her perspective of wanting to do something fun with her daughter.
> The guy is doing the best he can. She is the selfish one, as evidenced by her month long romp at her man's expense. It's easy to talk about how selfish he's being when he's doing the work of Earning a living and she buys 2k$ tickets without talking to him about it.
> 
> Way, way, way to hard on the guy footing the bill and raising kids while she's enjoying life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This ^^^^^


----------



## norajane

Tortdog said:


> I probably should have never signaled my support. But it is hard for me to be an impediment to my wife fulfilling her emotional needs, even when it feels like I come up with the short stick.
> 
> But never again. Both are happy or we don't do it and if she claims I am selfish because I am unsupportive of her need to be away for such a long time she needs a new mate.
> 
> I honestly am not sure where she is on that as to her true feelings. Some here post that they see nothing wrong with a 4 week separation. It is healthy.
> 
> I disagree, or at least it is not healthy for me.


Signaled your support? The way I read it, you flat out told her to stay for a month and actually tried to talk her into it by telling her she would regret it if she didn't. 



Tortdog said:


> I would agree with you but I believe that I confused my wife and I will show you the text. While I had strongly voiced that 1500 to travel to the UK for a 3 hour event was ridiculous, I know my wife felt differently. It was her friend, not mine. And she would not consider asking the friend to change the date to make the cost more reasonable. I would have. At that point, the friend waffles on when or whether to even do the event and time passed. When the friend finally decided and my wife wanted to go, she let me know she was going forward with her plans. She didn't ask.
> 
> So I texted:
> 
> Your ticket is 1500. That's a lot of money. *If you are spending that, then stay with [our daughter] . That is the same amount of money and will mean more to you and [our daughter] than the primary reason you are going. *
> 
> *If you don't stay with [our daughter] after you already spent the money to be over there, you will always regret it*
> 
> ...
> 
> My wife read that, clicked her heels and then bought the 1850 ticket.
> 
> So I can see her view of being confused.


Now you are blaming her for doing what you talked her into doing.

That is what is called a Sh*t Test. You set her up to fail by telling her to do it and she'd regret it if she didn't, and now your pissed that she did what you told her to do instead of saying, "no, no, I'll stay here with you and miss my friend's wedding and miss traveling with my daughter which you told me I would regret missing."


----------



## MattMatt

norajane said:


> Signaled your support? The way I read it, you flat out told her to stay for a month and actually tried to talk her into it by telling her she would regret it if she didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you are blaming her for doing what you talked her into doing.
> 
> That is what is called a Sh*t Test. You set her up to fail by telling her to do it and she'd regret it if she didn't, and now your pissed that she did what you told her to do instead of saying, "no, no, I'll stay here with you and miss my friend's wedding and miss traveling with my daughter which you told me I would regret missing."


I thought it was along the lines of: "Well, if you do x, you might as well do y, as you are in that same place."


----------



## norajane

Yes, that may be. However, her original plan was not to go to Europe for a month. Her original plan was to go to her friend's wedding. 

He talked her into staying after that to travel with their daughter by saying she'd regret it. She hadn't even been considering it. He can't be mad now that she agreed.


----------



## Tortdog

norajane said:


> Yes, that may be. However, her original plan was not to go to Europe for a month. Her original plan was to go to her friend's wedding.
> 
> He talked her into staying after that to travel with their daughter by saying she'd regret it. She hadn't even been considering it. He can't be mad now that she agreed.


You are both right. I know of my wife. Coming home when she was already in Europe and our daughter was there would have killed her. 

The original plan was just her to the friend for a few days. When the friend kept changing the dates, it ended up being the same time my daughter was going to be at the friend's house and then my daughter was going on to her other European countries. 

Then my wife comes up with the idea to just stay and piggyback on my daughter's trip. 

It is logical. It maximizes the value of the airfare expenditure. But doing so disregards the emotional needs of the spouse. 

My view is she should have never made the request of me. If I had refused (I originally voiced significant concern), I am not sure which way my wife would have swung. She was on the fence. 

Seeing her struggle (but not deciding against it) and recognizing what my wife really wanted caused me to back down from my needs. 

That is the arguable doormat. So let's chalk this up to a one time exception. My wife has convinced me that she only left because I voiced support for the extension. 

Gets back to my opposition to even go over without me or at a time when it was unreasonable.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Why are you being so mysterious about this religious ceremony? Is there some reason you can't tell us what it is?


----------



## MattMatt

Nucking Futs said:


> Why are you being so mysterious about this religious ceremony? Is there some reason you can't tell us what it is?


I think he mentioned that it was a wedding?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Satya

Tortdog said:


> So I support her in this trip. I am going to help her plan and figure out the best vacation while she is gone. Then from this point forward, we have an agreement to work on the mutual agreement and not doing things that upset the other partner.
> 
> And I am probably going to Disney World with the babies. I am not sure if I am going to tell her....


So, you're considering breaking your own rule to teach a lesson before you implement it? Go with the babies, just be honest about it. Take the lead in the respectful behavior that you require. Don't just hurt back because you're hurt.


----------



## manfromlamancha

The issue is no longer about how long she has gone for - it is about her thought processes that lead up to the decisions she makes.

I understand the OP completely when he said that if you are going to do this then at least go with the daughter else she will feel bad about it. But the wife decided to go for her English friend's wedding without care for what OP felt or thought. That in addition to her other behaviour makes me think that she does not care for OP in the slightest and maybe OP needs to face up to this while he still has a chance to find real love elsewhere.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Evinrude58 said:


> Something is not right here. Sex 3or 4 times a year and being away from you a month and you're worried she's gone after kids are older? I'm just asking? If this is true, you have far bigger problems than I thought. If it's true, you are absolutely nothing but a check to her.
> If it's not true, there's still likely more to this.
> I believe she's wanting to go because she wants an excuse to go run and play, certainly not for a 3 hour religious ceremony. Has nothing to do with the event. The event just helps add more time to the vacation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly! Tortdog needs to wake up!


----------



## Tortdog

Nucking Futs said:


> Why are you being so mysterious about this religious ceremony? Is there some reason you can't tell us what it is?


I just didn't feel like going into details as it wasn't important. 

The friend is going to go through the LDS temple for the first time. To do that, you have to be willing to show you are living various commitments like no sex outside marriage, no alcohol, etc. It is kind of like being baptized but on steroids. 

Most people go through the temple in their 20s when they get married. This friend never got married and didn't feel the various "rules" were important enough to follow. Now in her 40s she has decided it is worth it so she is making the commitment. 

That's why the date changed so much. It was just when to make the commitment.

She still has not decided to get married. It is in essence another baptism or like one of the Catholic sacraments.


----------



## Tortdog

Satya said:


> So, you're considering breaking your own rule to teach a lesson before you implement it? Go with the babies, just be honest about it. Take the lead in the respectful behavior that you require. Don't just hurt back because you're hurt.


I think you are right.


----------



## MyTurn

Tortdog said:


> I just didn't feel like going into details as it wasn't important.
> 
> The friend is going to go through the LDS temple for the first time. To do that, you have to be willing to show you are living various commitments like no sex outside marriage, no alcohol, etc. It is kind of like being baptized but on steroids.
> 
> Most people go through the temple in their 20s when they get married. This friend never got married and didn't feel the various "rules" were important enough to follow. Now in her 40s she has decided it is worth it so she is making the commitment.
> 
> That's why the date changed so much. It was just when to make the commitment.
> 
> She still has not decided to get married. It is in essence another baptism or like one of the Catholic sacraments.



So if this friend decids to get married like in a month or two or even a year from now ,what then ?
Is your wife going to blow another 1800 for friend?
This is redicilous!


----------



## Tortdog

MyTurn said:


> So if this friend decids to get married like in a month or two or even a year from now ,what then ?
> Is your wife going to blow another 1800 for friend?
> This is redicilous!


In our agreement, unless the two of us agree that it makes sense then we don't commit the family's resources or separate. 

So, yes, she gets away with it one last time but reconsidering my text I can see how she could have been confused even though part of me thinks she knew I would not have agreed.


----------



## Tortdog

manfromlamancha said:


> Exactly! Tortdog needs to wake up!


Where I screwed up is not reclarifying my view that taking this trip at that time was unreasonable and selfish. It was. And I completely disagree with those who say she has her own life and should be able to use family funds as she pleases without a mutual agreement. 

Her "own life" ended when "we" got married and made an eternal commitment. 

Even if these weren't mutual funds and she wanted to go "independent" then she would never have had the "independent" resources to spend on this trip. 

It is our money but she made her decision.

She and I have each made selfish decisions in the past. It stops now. 

Okay, roll the eyes because I get it. It is hard to walk away when you really love the other person but you have to if they refuse to change. I have very much enjoyed the discussion and it has made a difference to me for the better.


----------



## Marduk

One thing is clear. 

The problem in the marriage isn't the trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Betrayedone

Tortdog said:


> Where I screwed up is not reclarifying my view that taking this trip at that time was unreasonable and selfish. It was. And I completely disagree with those who say she has her own life and should be able to use family funds as she pleases without a mutual agreement.
> 
> Her "own life" ended when "we" got married and made an eternal commitment.
> 
> Even if these weren't mutual funds and she wanted to go "independent" then she would never have had the "independent" resources to spend on this trip.
> 
> It is our money but she made her decision.
> 
> She and I have each made selfish decisions in the past. It stops now.
> 
> Okay, roll the eyes because I get it. It is hard to walk away when you really love the other person but you have to if they refuse to change. I have very much enjoyed the discussion and it has made a difference to me for the better.


OK, now what are you going to do about it? You need to man up and hit her with a can of shock and awe so she finally wakes up and will take you seriously.


----------



## Tortdog

marduk said:


> One thing is clear.
> 
> The problem in the marriage isn't the trip.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree. It only is a symptom.


----------



## MattMatt

Tortdog said:


> Agree. It only is a symptom.


Disrespecting not only you but the younger children.

Why? Why the disrespect?

Presumably you and her are LDS? Time to get the Bishop on the case?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## manfromlamancha

You still haven't said why you guys don't have sex regularly - 3 to 4 times a year? WTF?


----------



## Tortdog

MattMatt said:


> Presumably you and her are LDS? Time to get the Bishop on the case?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, I don't think that most bishops are qualified for marriage counseling. In fact, some less experienced bishops can do harm if they believe that "prompting of the Spirit" can be enough and an answer for the need in front of them. I have worked with and in bishoprics in the past and it is a joy to have a truly humble bishop who recognizes that while he may be in tune with the whisperings of the Spirit, he cannot hope to substitute his views to answer the questions of those who come before him. The wisest bishops I have known ask questions and listen. But their counsel is limited. Most are still learning in their own relationships.


----------



## Tortdog

manfromlamancha said:


> You still haven't said why you guys don't have sex regularly - 3 to 4 times a year? WTF?


You missed where I pointed out that has improved. We are now on a far more regular basis, but there remains some issues there but not to the level of high concern. I would say that we now engage in sexual intimacy about 4 to 5 times per month. Better but not what I would choose. 

That brings up many issues like "good girl" syndrome, the effect of Zoloft on a woman's sexual desires, etc.


----------



## RClawson

Tortdog said:


> Actually, I don't think that most bishops are qualified for marriage counseling.


Speaking as a former Bishop I will wholeheartedly agree with this however there are very good LDS counselors that could be contacted.


----------



## 225985

Tortdog said:


> In our agreement, unless the two of us agree that it makes sense then we don't commit the family's resources or separate.
> 
> So, yes,* she gets away with it one last time* but reconsidering my text I can see how she could have been confused even though part of me thinks *she knew I would not have agreed.*





Tortdog said:


> Where I screwed up is not reclarifying *my view that taking this trip at that time was unreasonable and selfish.* It was. And I completely disagree with those who say she has her own life and should be able to use family funds as she pleases without a mutual agreement.
> 
> *Her "own life" ended when "we" got married* and made an eternal commitment.
> 
> Even if these weren't mutual funds and she wanted to go "independent" then *she would never have had the "independent" resources to spend on this trip.
> *
> It is our money but she made her decision.
> 
> She and I have each made selfish decisions in the past.* It stops now. *
> 
> Okay, roll the eyes because I get it. It is hard to walk away when you really love the other person but you have to *if they refuse to change. *I have very much enjoyed the discussion and it has made a difference to me for the better.


IMO, the underlying problem here is that OP is controlling. He is pi$$ed that she challenged his control of the marriage. He says it is a partnership but his words in bold say otherwise.

He wants to decide how the money (meaning HIS money) is spent. He wants to decide how long she goes on a trip, and who she sees on the trip.

She is not going on this trip to cheat. She wants to get away from him and have at least 4 weeks in her life that he is not controlling her.

Just my opinion based on what he wrote.


----------



## MattMatt

Tortdog said:


> Actually, I don't think that most bishops are qualified for marriage counseling. In fact, some less experienced bishops can do harm of they believe that "prompting of the Spirit" can be enough and an answer for the need in front of them. I have worked with and in bishopric in the past and it is a joy to have a truly humble bishop who recognizes that while he may be in tune with the whisperings of the Spirit, he cannot hope to substitute his views to answer the questions of those who come before him. The wisest bishops I have known ask questions and listen. But their counsel is limited. Most are still learning in their own relationships.


None are. But I was thinking of using him as a Religious Authority Figure to stop her gallop as the saying goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tortdog

blueinbr said:


> He wants to decide how the money (meaning HIS money) is spent. He wants to decide how long she goes on a trip, and who she sees on the trip.
> 
> She is not going on this trip to cheat. She wants to get away from him and have at least 4 weeks in her life that he is not controlling her.


I think that I deserve a say in how our money is spent. If we disagree on an item of a substantial amount, I believe that the two should work together to come up with a mutually satisfactory decision. 

That defines selfish? 

Note: In the past I argued that neither of us spend more than $500 without consultation and agreement of the two, and while that was agreed to at first there have been exceptions, solely on her side, where that did not happen.


----------



## MattMatt

blueinbr said:


> IMO, the underlying problem here is that OP is controlling. He is pi$$ed that she challenged his control of the marriage. He says it is a partnership but his words in bold say otherwise.
> 
> He wants to decide how the money (meaning HIS money) is spent. He wants to decide how long she goes on a trip, and who she sees on the trip.
> 
> She is not going on this trip to cheat. She wants to get away from him and have at least 4 weeks in her life that he is not controlling her.
> 
> Just my opinion based on what he wrote.


And do not forget she can be away from those pesky brats, too, eh?

A winner situation for her. Not for the kids or the husband but well, who cares about them? ; )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tortdog

MattMatt said:


> None are. But I was thinking of using him as a Religious Authority Figure to stop her gallop as the saying goes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is VERY independent. Sometimes our priesthood leaders really possible her off.


----------



## 225985

Tortdog said:


> I think that I deserve a say in how our money is spent. If we disagree on an item of a substantial amount, I believe that the two should work together to come up with a mutually satisfactory decision.
> 
> That defines selfish?
> 
> Note: In the past I argued that neither of us spend more than $500 without consultation and agreement of the two, and while that was agreed to at first there have been exceptions, solely on her side, where that did not happen.


To an outsider like me, the specific words you wrote imply much more control than a 50/50 partnership. You might disagree, fine. 

Seems that YOU came up with another controlling agreement - this $500 without consultation - but seems to me that you forced this on her and she really did not agree in spirit, regardless of what she said at the time.

You are waffling back and forth on whether the problem is the money, or length of time away or that she did not get "efficient" plane tickets (ie. for $1800 she should have gotten BC instead of coach etc.), or who she is spending time with on the trip. So I really do not understand your story, other than to think it again comes down to control. Again - she broke this "agreement" and that seems to have you pi$$ed more than the money or the time or who she is with. Some of us thought she might use this trip to cheat. You do not seem worried about that because you are fixated on something else.

Hey, we are trying to help. If I am wrong I wasted your time, but if I am even somewhat right, I am glad you at least think about it.

I wish we had your wife here to comment anonymously if she thought her husband is controlling. I am a somewhat controlling husband, so maybe I am projecting. Or the pot calling the kettle black. 

I do not know your financial situation, but judging from what you said $1800 is not going to break you. So that is not the problem and you know it.


----------



## Tortdog

blueinbr said:


> He wants to decide how long she goes on a trip, and who she sees on the trip.


First, one question. Do you not think that I should have a say in how long my wife decides to travel? What if she decides she wants to travel for one year. My job is to shut up, grin and bear it? 

Second, I have never opined on whom she should go and see. The closest you could come to that is where I advised her that she would always regret going to Europe but not traveling with her daughter. I fully support her relationship with her friend. I just don't think she is being financially wise in how she goes about it (and, candidly, I would like to go with her but can't at that chosen time).


----------



## Tortdog

blueinbr said:


> I wish we had your wife here to comment anonymously if she thought her husband is controlling. I am a somewhat controlling husband, so maybe I am projecting. Or the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> I do not know your financial situation, but judging from what you said $1800 is not going to break you. So that is not the problem and you know it.


I am always mindful of throwing money around. It is easier to get over but doesn't mean it doesn't bother me. I am careful with our money (and she is too, generally). 

She has voiced as you that she feels that I am throttling her. Well, I think that I have not been forceful enough. Not saying that I should have forced her to do or not do something, but I should have made clear that her independent choices that hurt me have a consequence. 

I have been very loose in doing that. Shame on me. 

Even the $500 you jumped to a conclusion. I brought up major spending as being an issue. I reached out to come up with a way where we could spend our money without making the other partner upset. She thinks I spend too much on electronics. I think she wastes money on other things. One time I was gone for 3 days on a business trip and while I was gone she had hired someone to cut down 23 trees on our property. It cost us a lot of money. She violated the HOA rules and we got to deal with that (they were pissed). She just did it. 

Part of me laughs, now. Still doesn't make it right. 

Just some examples. So we mutually came up with a number.


----------



## Tortdog

Another quick vent that didn't bother me as much because it just happened (I am becoming less concerned on how the money is spent as I earn more money now) but... Shows what I am talking about. 

While I was out of country on business, she ordered a whole bunch of furniture. I got home and a room had been completely decked out. All new. She smiled and said, Don't worry about Mother's Day (or something like that). 

So maybe that's just to be expected, right? Frankly I think that shows disregard for the other spouse.... Though I have kind of learned, well, that's her. 

And part of me laughs inside.

Problem is that this disregard carries into other situations that in my view are completely unacceptable, like being away in Europe for a month away from your spouse and not being a little more wise about how you spend our money. 

I could have gotten her that same ticket for $117 with 100,000 points (still ridiculous time to travel to London unless the Queen just died).


----------



## naiveonedave

I will tell one thing @Tortdog - if my wife left for a month vacation without me, I would not be there when she got back. I don't think I could put up with my wife abandoning me like that. I don't need her, but what is the point of being married if you are apart.


----------



## 225985

Tortdog said:


> First, one question. Do you not think that I should have a say in how long my wife decides to travel? What if she decides she wants to travel for one year. My job is to shut up, grin and bear it?


She did not ask for a year so throwing that out as an argument is ridiculous to me. She scheduled 4 weeks and that is VERY reasonable. She knows the tickets are not cheap and you would complain if she spend $1800 for a weekend trip. Spending some extra time there helps "dilute" the cost of the tickets.

You travel for business and are away from the house much longer. Does your wife get to decide how long you stay away? Of course not, it is your job - right?

I have done business travel. Been to many countries in Europe and South America. I worked hard - 14 hour long days in a suit in Germany meeting clients, or 16 hours days in the hot Chilean desert. All work but still I got to travel and see wonderful places and at the end of the day I would rather have done this travel than not. Your wife gets to stay home with the kids while you see places (regardless of why you have to go there) and travel. Don't you see that? 

4 weeks is reasonable. Let her go AND be HAPPY for her. Buy her a good lightweight suitcase. Tell her to post the pictures for you to see. Facetime or skype with her when she is at a landmark. Share the moments with her. 

BTW: If she wanted to travel for a year, tell he yes, she can go but not as your wife. That would be ridiculous - unless she was dying and that was her last wish.


----------



## Tortdog

blueinbr said:


> She did not ask for a year so throwing that out as an argument is ridiculous to me. She scheduled 4 weeks and that is VERY reasonable. .


So we can agree to disagree. Four weeks away from her for me is Hell. It isn't for her. It is t for you. 

We differ. Part of the joy of being individuals in a marriage. I get that. Once I got over it not being personal, it helps. But I still believe that it shows priorities and I am towards the bottom on her chart.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I'm still not seeing how her vacation is different from you taking off for weeks for business if your argument is that it's too much time apart. 

A big chunk of your problem is that your years of extended travel have created an atmosphere where you two are apart a lot, so for you to complain about that now is ironic. 

So is this issue the time apart or the idea that she's having fun without you? Because if you were that concerned with time apart you would have limited your travel over the years. 

You said she was unhappy that you went to Sri Lanka without her.....translation: she was unhappy you had fun without her.

Now you're unhappy she's going to have fun without you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog

Both, Life. While the travel was fun the separation sucked. I would never voluntarily choose to be away for so long from her. I have done it and it really sucked. 

Maybe she just doesn't know what it's like. Maybe she will come back really sad that she was gone for so long. 

The other part is knowing your partner is off having fun seeing things and experiencing moments that you wish you could be part of. That's jealousy. And I am human. I do wish I could do that too, or that she would wait so we could plan and do it together.

I predict this. She will really miss the babies. She will cling to them. She will miss me too, but it will not be near the level that she will have a sense of loss of the babies. 

But maybe that is natural with most moms.


----------



## 225985

Tort,

You are young. Fix your marriage issues before they lead to divorce. It is good your found this site. Do not leave. 

1) You have communication issues for sure. Your wife should have felt comfortable enough to approach you and have you get the best ticket for her.
2) Money issues to be addressed. 
3) You admit your wife thinks you are controlling (throttling) her. That will lead to huge resentment later.
4) Learn to be apart with her so that she can pursue her dreams. Can you not be "apart" from her physically for her to have a great trip?
5) Let her travel now why she is still in good health.

You still have your 100,000 points saved up for a trip that you and her can take together. Good luck.


----------



## Tortdog

Good post. 


blueinbr said:


> Tort,
> 
> You are young. Fix your marriage issues before they lead to divorce. It is good your found this site. Do not leave.
> 
> 1) You have communication issues for sure. Your wife should have felt comfortable enough to approach you and have you get the best ticket for her.
> 2) Money issues to be addressed.
> 3) You admit your wife thinks you are controlling (throttling) her. That will lead to huge resentment later.
> 4) Learn to be apart with her so that she can pursue her dreams. Can you not be "apart" from her physically for her to have a great trip?
> 5) Let her travel now why she is still in good health.
> 
> You still have your 100,000 points saved up for a trip that you and her can take together. Good luck.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Tort, I get it. I'd be unhappy to if my hb was out having extended amounts of fun without me. I'm just pointing out how this atmosphere was created, and how she's come to the point where she's compartmentalized (did I spell that right? ) her life with you and her life without you. She's spent a lot of time without you, so through her lens it's not a big deal for her to spend a few weeks with her daughter. 

You can reverse this but first you have to understand it's origin. 

I would not pick this trip as a hill to die on. In the grand scheme of things it's not big deal, and if you're going to throw a fit over it you may as well divorce because you can't throw a fit and get a better connection. 

You and your wife have to start spending more fun time together. Your wife feels left out because she's stuck at home as a single parent while you run and the world. Sure you can claim it's to support the family but you could've gotten a job closer to home if that was a priority, so you can't hate it that much. . At least own that decision. 

I could make a ton of money if I took a travelling consultant job but it would be terrible for my family so I don't. 

Have you spoken to her about the lack of quality time together as it relates to some of your travel? You're going to have a hard time making the case that your travel is no big deal but hers most be limited because it's too much time apart.

Maybe you can come to an agreement when nothing in particular is on the table. She gets X amount of time and you get X amount of time together?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog

This issue is the past. I already told her (only after discussing here) that I am all on and said I would do anything I could to make this trip the most fun of her life. I am going to find enjoyment making her happy. 

I also said that we need to make plans for each other. And she agrees. I would take her around the world alone, but with the two babies at home it wouldn't be enjoyable. So I say we suck it up, take them along and just have fun all together. We can do side jaunts to local areas on weekends until the babies are gone. 

She would never enjoy a long trip without the babies. We did a 3 week trip to Europe about 10 years ago and all she could do was worry about the kids.


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## Tortdog

The texts from yesterday:

Me: So I am all in. Let me know what I can do to help make your trip awesome 

Her: 😚 thank you.


----------



## Nucking Futs

lifeistooshort said:


> Tort, I get it. I'd be unhappy to if my hb was out having extended amounts of fun without me. *I'm just pointing out how this atmosphere was created, and how she's come to the point where she's compartmentalized (did I spell that right? ) her life with you and her life without you. She's spent a lot of time without you, so through her lens it's not a big deal for her to spend a few weeks with her daughter. *
> 
> You can reverse this but first you have to understand it's origin.
> 
> I would not pick this trip as a hill to die on. In the grand scheme of things it's not big deal, and if you're going to throw a fit over it you may as well divorce because you can't throw a fit and get a better connection.
> 
> You and your wife have to start spending more fun time together. Your wife feels left out because she's stuck at home as a single parent while you run and the world. Sure you can claim it's to support the family but you could've gotten a job closer to home if that was a priority, so you can't hate it that much. . At least own that decision.
> 
> I could make a ton of money if I took a travelling consultant job but it would be terrible for my family so I don't.
> 
> Have you spoken to her about the lack of quality time together as it relates to some of your travel? You're going to have a hard time making the case that your travel is no big deal but hers most be limited because it's too much time apart.
> 
> Maybe you can come to an agreement when nothing in particular is on the table. She gets X amount of time and you get X amount of time together?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If his traveling for work is what caused her to compartmentalize her relationship with him to the point that she thinks nothing about being apart from him for a month, what led her to compartmentalize her relationship with her younger children to that same point?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Tortdog said:


> This issue is the past. I already told her (only after discussing here) that I am all on and said I would do anything I could to make this trip the most fun of her life. I am going to find enjoyment making her happy.
> 
> I also said that we need to make plans for each other. And she agrees. I would take her around the world alone, but with the two babies at home it wouldn't be enjoyable. So I say we suck it up, take them along and just have fun all together. We can do side jaunts to local areas on weekends until the babies are gone.
> 
> *She would never enjoy a long trip without the babies. We did a 3 week trip to Europe about 10 years ago and all she could do was worry about the kids.*


Bullsh!t. She's about to enjoy a long trip without her babies. A trip that is not in any way required but is entirely based on her desires.


----------



## MarriedTex

Good for you. This is the only reasonable course of action now. You have to be all in on this trip. No sense in spending resources / time on this AND have her come home resenting you, to boot. 

Just remember, you still have bigger issues lurking. These will need your attention over time.


----------



## Tortdog

MarriedTex said:


> Good for you. This is the only reasonable course of action now. You have to be all in on this trip. No sense in spending resources / time on this AND have her come home resenting you, to boot.
> 
> Just remember, you still have bigger issues lurking. These will need your attention over time.


Absolutely agree. This is not the hill as someone else pointed out.


----------



## lifeistooshort

To be honest, if my hb was constantly accepting business trips and then told me it was hell being away from me in not sure I'd believe him. 

I'd think he was prioritizing his career and feeding me a line. 

I know that's not what you meant, but that's how I'd receive it as his wife. Life is about balance and everyone knows that if you nuture your family you're never going to be as accomplished professionally as if you prioritize career. 

I've seen women here on TAM who traveled a lot for work be accused of putting the job over the family and called selfish, especially if hb isn't getting the sex he wants with her gone all the time.

Remnants of a double standard I suppose. .... men who travel are supporting the family, women who travel are selfish, at risk of 
cheating, and not prioritizing the family.

PS: you did good with the text. She'll remember it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tortdog

Nucking Futs said:


> If his traveling for work is what caused her to compartmentalize her relationship with him to the point that she thinks nothing about being apart from him for a month, what led her to compartmentalize her relationship with her younger children to that same point?


She is struggling with leaving the babies. Trust me. But she has her oldest daughter that she will be with while her two babies stay behind. Honestly, I don't think she wants to let our daughter go. She has been very candid about how much this is hurting her. 

My wife and daughter are at the same high school (wife is a teacher). My daughter spends her lunch in my wife's classroom. Absolutely ridiculous. A dependent relationship on steroids. They live for each other. 

It even worries my wife some, but not enough to incite what wife should do and kick daughter out of the classroom and demand she lunch with her friends. 

When I was in high school, I would have denied that my mom was teaching at the high school.... But I love her a ton. Just, that's My high school... My life. I don't want a parent mixing in.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Nucking Futs said:


> If his traveling for work is what caused her to compartmentalize her relationship with him to the point that she thinks nothing about being apart from him for a month, what led her to compartmentalize her relationship with her younger children to that same point?


I get it. Women who enjoy a few weeks away bad mothers. 

Men who do it are supporting the family. 

Given that he just turned down a trip that would suggest it's not mandatory and he's doing it to make more money. 

So that means him making more money is worth being away from his family. 

I don't actually think that's how he looks at it, at least not consciously, I'm just extending your logic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## norajane

lifeistooshort said:


> I get it. Women who enjoy a fee weeks away bad mothers.
> 
> Men who do it are supporting the family.
> 
> Given that he just turned down a trip that would suggest it's not mandatory and he's doing it to make more money.
> 
> So that means him making more money is worth being away from his family.
> 
> I don't actually think that's how he looks at it, at least not consciously, I'm just extending your logic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His wife, apparently, has also been supporting the family as a high school teacher while raising 3 kids while he travels.

His perspective on "his" money and supporting the family is skewed. Sounds like his wife has contributed very much to this family and begrudging her a few thousand dollars that some people spend monthly on rent or mortgage - or the money he spends on his electronics, as he noted - is churlish.


----------



## Nucking Futs

How old are these "babies"?


----------



## Tortdog

norajane said:


> His wife, apparently, has also been supporting the family as a high school teacher while raising 3 kids while he travels.
> 
> His perspective on "his" money and supporting the family is skewed. Sounds like his wife has contributed very much to this family and begrudging her a few thousand dollars that some people spend monthly on rent or mortgage - or the money he spends on his electronics, as he noted - is churlish.


Um, excuse me but no. Because of my income, the IRS grabs a huge chunk of the money she makes. She has been working for one year and the money from my job paid for her schooling. The houses, clothes car that she drives to work were all were paid for by my job. And she is lucky to know that she can walk away at any time if the administration gives her crap. Her words not mine. 

But, frankly, she has put a ton of time into our kids. While I was busting my butt billing hours, schmoozing clients, etc., she was holding the fort down and raising great kids. That's worth the world. She is a great mom (but she needs to kick our daughter out at lunch). 

She is very much aware that she could not live the life that she has, and very much wants, off a teacher's salary. She is working because she wanted to contribute to others and the kids were getting old. Great for her and I support it.

But it is a complete fiction to suggest that money from her job is paying the bills that come due as a result of the lifestyle that we have. 

And let's be real clear. My wife loves that I travel. She wants the points for hotels and air travel. And she has used them abundantly for her travel with the kids and /or friends while I work. What she doesn't like is when I see things that are fun while I am gone. Stirs jealousy and I understand that. 

And she does that both ways. We have a beach house and when we first moved down there she had gone for the weekend to the beach house with a friend. The friend wanted to go out on the pier and my wife refused because she wanted to share that first moment with me. 

So she is authentic.


----------



## Tortdog

Nucking Futs said:


> How old are these "babies"?


Heh. 8 and 10. We call them the babies because they were the last ones. The name stuck.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Tortdog I do not think that you are overly controlling. However I am confused about what your wife thinks of you. Do you believe she loves you? Respects you? Cares about you?

It is clear how she feels about herself, her kids and her friend.

First she doesn't give you sex for 3 to 4 years and now she does? She has done this twice before with no consequences and is still doing it.

Why do you think she is with you ?


----------



## Tron

Tortdog said:


> While I was out of country on business, she ordered a whole bunch of furniture. I got home and a room had been completely decked out. All new. She smiled and said, Don't worry about Mother's Day (or something like that).





Tortdog said:


> One time I was gone for 3 days on a business trip and while I was gone she had hired someone to cut down 23 trees on our property. It cost us a lot of money. She violated the HOA rules and we got to deal with that (they were pissed). She just did it.
> 
> Part of me laughs, now. Still doesn't make it right.


I don't know how you laugh about it at all. I would have been livid. 

This screams entitlement and an absolute disregard for you.



Tortdog said:


> Problem is that this disregard carries into other situations that in my view are completely unacceptable, like being away in Europe for a month away from your spouse and not being a little more wise about how you spend our money.


These are big issues IMO and I don't see how the overall attitude does not carry over into the rest of the marriage. You, my friend, have a bear by the tail. 



Tortdog said:


> She has voiced as you that she feels that I am throttling her. Well, I think that I have not been forceful enough. Not saying that I should have forced her to do or not do something, but I should have made clear that her independent choices that hurt me have a consequence.
> 
> I have been very loose in doing that. Shame on me.


She feels you are throttling her??? :wtf: :redcard: I agree that you probably have not been forceful enough. And when you add this to all of the other previous and sexual issues in the marriage, I completely understand your resentment. 

I would be up to my ears in resentment too.

The relationship and the way you deal with her needs a complete reboot in a bad way. Sadly, I think that this may just be the woman you've married and I have my doubts whether she will ever change.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I wonder if some of this stuff she does while you're gone are passive agressive attempts to stick it to you? 

Hiring someone to cut down trees like that while you're gone for three days is a hostile act.

Why might she want to stick it to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tortdog

lifeistooshort said:


> I wonder if some of this stuff she does while you're gone are passive agressive attempts to stick it to you?
> 
> Hiring someone to cut down trees like that while you're gone for three days is a hostile act.
> 
> Why might she want to stick it to you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So call me a fool but I think she did it because she knows we I objected. I didn't try to reason with her when she was complaining about the trees. I just pointed out that you can't cut them down due to the. CCRs and I liked the wooded lot. She hated them (she kept about 8 ****** ones). 

And if I were to maker her argument for her, she was at home all the time. I was billing thousands of hours. 

She hated pine trees and the mess (though it taught our kids about yard work). 

I very much believe it was not about me at all. She just wanted them gone and seized the opportunity when I was out. 

Described perfectly, I have a bear by the tale. 

And, I mean, you have to admit that looking back it is kind of funny that she would do that. I mean, who cuts down 23 trees against the CCRs and gets it done during a time when the husband is gone for just a few days. 

I will never forget seeing the house when I got back. I couldn't believe she could cut down that many so fast and make it look like it never happened. When the HOA came by and asked about the trees (they were pissed), she just played dumb... What trees?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Is she responsible for the yard work? 

CCR's aside, pine trees are cool but they are a lot of work. 

I think if she's responsible for it then her opinion has to weigh more heavily. 

The association is another matter.

Do you think she feels that you want an equal say and overriding authority on matters don't affect you as much because you're gone? 

It's nice to say the kids can learn about yard work but if you're not there she's still ultimately responsibilie for it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tortdog

lifeistooshort said:


> Is she responsible for the yard work?
> 
> CCR's aside, pine trees are cool but they are a lot of work.
> 
> I think if she's responsible for it then her opinion has to weigh more heavily.
> 
> The association is another matter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. Never has been and never will. She has her own mind, is fiercely independent and don't get in her way. That is one reason why I married her but does not excuse the mutual respect requirement that marriagbuilders talks about in my mind. 

Off topic but you hear from women who are into being dominated. Not my DW. Not one bit. She wants you to make a decision on what we are going to do on a date but try and surprise her with a quickie or an throw her down for some fun unexpected and you will just pass her off because she has a schedule to keep. 

Too many things always on her mind and surprises are generally just something in the way.


----------



## Tortdog

I have frequently voiced as she is telling me how to do something as I am doing it (and quite competent like repair an appliance, patch a roof, etc.) that she can feel free to jump in and take over. 

In packing a vehicle, I have learned I can do nothing right and get out of her way. She actually does an amazing job at packing. There was an area where I said, feel free to do it your way and she did. And I learned to not get in her way again. 

A strong Texas woman, for sure. She'd have won at the Alamo.


----------



## farsidejunky

Actually, it sounds just the opposite.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Tortdog

farsidejunky said:


> Actually, it sounds just the opposite.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


There was the time that I changed her engine oil and she told me how the car is shifting so much nicer. 

I withheld comment... But it was so hard....


----------



## ChargingCharlie

Tortdog said:


> I have frequently voiced as she is telling me how to do something as I am doing it (and quite competent like repair an appliance, patch a roof, etc.) that she can feel free to jump in and take over.
> 
> In packing a vehicle, I have learned I can do nothing right and get out of her way. She actually does an amazing job at packing. There was an area where I said, feel free to do it your way and she did. And I learned to not get in her way again.
> 
> A strong Texas woman, for sure. She'd have won at the Alamo.


Mine is like this - if I'm working outside, she's nagging me telling me what I'm doing wrong. I'm too nice, but one day I'm going to blow up and tell her to do it herself. I hate doing stuff in the house because she feels the need to tell me what I'm doing wrong - she won't do this with anyone else, just me.


----------



## farsidejunky

Tortdog said:


> There was the time that I changed her engine oil and she told me how the car is shifting so much nicer.
> 
> I withheld comment... But it was so hard....


Not where I was going, but I see your point.

My point was that controlling people are typically fearful people. So underneath that independence, confidence, and bravado is likely a scared little girl, controlling the world around her due to fear.


----------



## Tortdog

farsidejunky said:


> Not where I was going, but I see your point.
> 
> My point was that controlling people are typically fearful people. So underneath that independence, confidence, and bravado is likely a scared little girl, controlling the world around her due to fear.


I'd sure like to get her into that space where she would start relying on others a bit more.


----------



## MattMatt

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm still not seeing how her vacation is different from you taking off for weeks for business if your argument is that it's too much time apart.
> 
> A big chunk of your problem is that your years of extended travel have created an atmosphere where you two are apart a lot, so for you to complain about that now is ironic.
> 
> So is this issue the time apart or the idea that she's having fun without you? Because if you were that concerned with time apart you would have limited your travel over the years.
> 
> You said she was unhappy that you went to Sri Lanka without her.....translation: she was unhappy you had fun without her.
> 
> Now you're unhappy she's going to have fun without you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have a question: How is she going to make it up to her two youngest children that she is going to be away from them for 30 days? 

Or is she just shrugging and thinking: "Oh, they'll get over it."

Maybe they won't. 

And the fact that Tortdog has to travel for work is not relevant.

After all, he could quit his job and go to work at McDonalds, right?

But I think that Mrs Tortdog might have some complaints about the massive drop in income.

Though she might complain about the fact that he gets a treat that he gets to go to McDonalds every day.


----------



## MattMatt

farsidejunky said:


> Not where I was going, but I see your point.
> 
> My point was that controlling people are typically fearful people. So underneath that independence, confidence, and bravado is likely a scared little girl, controlling the world around her due to fear.


I have a feeling that she might be an Entitled Princess type of the Utah variety or style.


----------



## Diana7

How old are the 2 younger children?Who will look after them when you are at work?


----------



## lifeistooshort

MattMatt said:


> I have a question: How is she going to make it up to her two youngest children that she is going to be away from them for 30 days?
> 
> Or is she just shrugging and thinking: "Oh, they'll get over it."
> 
> Maybe they won't.
> 
> And the fact that Tortdog has to travel for work is not relevant.
> 
> After all, he could quit his job and go to work at McDonalds, right?
> 
> But I think that Mrs Tortdog might have some complaints about the massive drop in income.
> 
> Though she might complain about the fact that he gets a treat that he gets to go to McDonalds every day.


I see, i had no idea that the only work options available are working at McDonald's or being gone a lot. Now it all makes perfect sense.

Mom is gone, she needs to make it up to them. Dad is gone a whole lot more but since it's for work the kids will just get over it. Got it. 

What exactly does she need to make up? Arguably he's been away from the kids for much longer and for 4 weeks at a time, so how's he going to make that up? 

Since your argument is based on time away. Or do you think the kids don't miss out because it's for work? That attitude suggests dad isn't really that important beyond paying bills, but I thought only "feminazis" made that argument.

Why the double standard for her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RClawson

MattMatt said:


> I have a feeling that she might be an Entitled Princess type of the Utah variety or style.


Matt I like you but your Mormon generalizations are always so pathetic. There are no more "entitled princesses" in Utah than anywhere else in the country.


----------



## Evinrude58

Dad's Work = food on the table
Mom's Vacation = fun for mom, more work and travel to pay for it by dad.

Double standard? No.

Slight bias toward woman always right. Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

RClawson said:


> Matt I like you but your Mormon generalizations are always so pathetic. There are no more "entitled princesses" in Utah than anywhere else in the country.


Really. I happen to have been raised a Mormon as a child so have direct knowledge of what I write about.

So my knowledge of Mormonism is based on practical experience and I therefore do not make generalisations especially not "pathetic ones."


----------



## Mclane

RClawson said:


> Matt I like you but your Mormon generalizations are always so pathetic. There are no more "entitled princesses" in Utah than anywhere else in the country.


Well then what about people in Utah who wear magical underwear?


----------



## Nucking Futs

lifeistooshort said:


> I see, i had no idea that the only work options available are working at McDonald's or being gone a lot. Now it all makes perfect sense.
> 
> *Mom is choosing to be gone for the fun of it, she needs to make it up to them. Dad is gone a whole lot more but unwillingly but since it's for work the kids will just get over it.* Got it.
> 
> What exactly does she need to make up? Arguably he's been away from the kids for much longer and for 4 weeks at a time, so how's he going to make that up?
> 
> Since your argument is based on time away. Or do you think the kids don't miss out because it's for work? That attitude suggests dad isn't really that important beyond paying bills, but I thought only "feminazis" made that argument.
> 
> Why the double standard for her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fify.


----------



## Tortdog

MattMatt said:


> I have a feeling that she might be an Entitled Princess type of the Utah variety or style.


Definitely not Utahn but entitled but mostly when she flies through money it is not directly for her but to deal with a perceived need she feels must be addressed, e.g., kids lessons, house furniture, landscaping, etc. She actually spendsittle on herself... Until she does.


----------



## Tortdog

Diana7 said:


> How old are the 2 younger children?Who will look after them when you are at work?


Eight and ten. Hiring a nanny. 










So, seriously we have lined up a neighbor and I will shift more hours to home.


----------



## RClawson

Mclane said:


> Well then what about people in Utah who wear magical underwear?


brilliant


----------



## Tortdog

I am not worried about the kids. They have lived in situations when they only had mom as I was away on business. I called every night and read them stories. 

So now I will be the home parent. 

We will have a blast and when mom comes home, it will be a big deal. She might even miss me!

What will likely suffer is my job. I have a major project and candidly it is going to be a strain to be able to meet both demands in an adequate fashion. My wife is off for the summer. 

Tortdog <----- No such luxury


----------



## Mclane

Tortdog said:


> She might even miss me!


Or, while she is gone, she will become acutely aware that she doesn't.


----------



## RClawson

MattMatt said:


> Really. I happen to have been raised a Mormon as a child so have direct knowledge of what I write about.
> 
> So my knowledge of Mormonism is based on practical experience and I therefore do not make generalisations especially not "pathetic ones."


Your experience is based on your experience only Matt. Give it a rest. Your comments about my religion are pretty much snide all the time. That was just another example of it. 

I have been a Mormon ALL my life and your comment made today and others you have made in the past have all been generalizations without much merit if any at all. 

Your childhood recollections aside, being an entitled princess is not limited to the state of Utah nor is it a characteristic of the majority of the women I know from that state and the ones I have associated with all my life.


----------



## Tortdog

Mclane said:


> Or, while she is gone, she will become acutely aware that she doesn't.


But you know what? I'm fine with that. I sure don't want someone to stay because they feel they are hostage.


----------



## MattMatt

RClawson said:


> brilliant


Brilliant?

That would depend on the washing powder used, I suppose.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Tortdog said:


> But you know what? I'm fine with that. I sure don't want someone to stay because they feel they are hostage.


Except she won't leave, she'll feed you just enough scraps of attention to keep you on the hook until the nest is empty then she'll drop you like a hot rock.


----------



## Tortdog

Nucking Futs said:


> Except she won't leave, she'll feed you just enough scraps of attention to keep you on the hook until the nest is empty then she'll drop you like a hot rock.


Maybe. We talked about that in stark terms the other night. She expressed that she has never had a plan to leave, nor will, and they she really does love me. She just doesn't have the same desire for intimacy. 

Possible?


----------



## Tortdog

RClawson said:


> Your experience is based on your experience only Matt. Give it a rest. Your comments about my religion are pretty much snide all the time. That was just another example of it.
> 
> I have been a Mormon ALL my life and your comment made today and others you have made in the past have all been generalizations without much merit if any at all.
> 
> Your childhood recollections aside, being an entitled princess is not limited to the state of Utah nor is it a characteristic of the majority of the women I know from that state and the ones I have associated with all my life.


While I'm no big fan of Utahns, they are among the most practical people I have ever met - almost to a fault. Some might say cheap. 

There are the live on the mountain types who look down on the valley folk, but entitled is not a term I would use for the general population.


----------



## Tortdog

ChargingCharlie said:


> Mine is like this - if I'm working outside, she's nagging me telling me what I'm doing wrong. I'm too nice, but one day I'm going to blow up and tell her to do it herself. I hate doing stuff in the house because she feels the need to tell me what I'm doing wrong - she won't do this with anyone else, just me.


I have told her that a few times. She backs off mighty quick for the most part. If she doesn't, then frees me up to do something else. Win win.


----------



## Mclane

Tortdog said:


> But you know what? I'm fine with that. I sure don't want someone to stay because they feel they are hostage.


Then the trip could be a real eye opening, life changing event. 

Maybe it's a good thing.


----------



## MattMatt

Tortdog said:


> While I'm no big fan of Utahns, they are among the most practical people I have ever met - almost to a fault. Some might say cheap.
> 
> There are the live on the mountain types who look down on the valley folk, but entitled is not a term I would use for the general population.


I actually like Utahns. The vast majority of those I have met have been wonderful, generous people.

The few, very few, who felt they were entitled "just because" were described to me by someone who was also from Utah as "an embarrassment to us all."


----------



## Diana7

Tortdog said:


> Eight and ten. Hiring a nanny.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, seriously we have lined up a neighbor and I will shift more hours to home.


The thing is that there is NO WAY that I would have gone off on holiday for a month and left children of that age behind. When it came to holidays it was always for the children.
I have never had a holiday without my husband nor he me.I wouldnt even think of it but thats the way we are. 

Maybe she could go for less time?Maybe 10 days or so?Does her older daughter want her there for her whole holiday? I wouldnt have if I were in my late teens.


----------



## Tortdog

Diana7 said:


> The thing is that there is NO WAY that I would have gone off on holiday for a month and left children of that age behind. When it came to holidays it was always for the children.
> I have never had a holiday without my husband nor he me.I wouldnt even think of it but thats the way we are.
> 
> Maybe she could go for less time?Maybe 10 days or so?Does her older daughter want her there for her whole holiday? I wouldnt have if I were in my late teens.


Well, that's kind of how I feel, but... There are some who feel quite different so my wife is not alone.


----------



## AliceA

Evinrude58 said:


> I totally disagree with the premise that his business trips = her vacations. That's total bs. He MUST go on trips to support the family. It's no requirement for her to go romp all over Europe. He's not selfish at all. He even saw her perspective of wanting to do something fun with her daughter.
> The guy is doing the best he can. She is the selfish one, as evidenced by her month long romp at her man's expense. It's easy to talk about how selfish he's being when he's doing the work of Earning a living and she buys 2k$ tickets without talking to him about it.
> 
> Way, way, way to hard on the guy footing the bill and raising kids while she's enjoying life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not about them being the same thing, it's about the fact that he's been away many many times while she's been away a total of 3 times. It's about the fact that everyone knows that business trips aren't all made up of hard work and that's it; there's usually dinners etc that you get to go to, time spent enjoying yourself after a day is done. Where is her right to have a trip away by herself? What, she doesn't get any rights? Figures.

You try to claim it's at "his expense" - it's at her f*cking expense too. People in marriage share money and time and even if she didn't get paid for her time spent looking after kids and home, that doesn't mean she should be penniless.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Tortdog, you seem to be avoiding the issue and questions have been asked about it by myself and others, none of which really got a reply.

It is absolute bull$h!t that she loves you but doesn't have a desire for intimacy. You can take that to the bank!

She has NO regard (none, nada) whatsoever for what you think, like, want etc. She does exactly as she wants. You are there to pay for it, provide a babysitting service etc and she will sacrifice her vagina to you a few times a year and hope that is enough.


So back to the questions (which are really an attempt to get you to face the fact):

Why does she stick it to you ? Do you think she is in love with you ? Forget about love, does she even like you ?

Now from where I (and it seems, a few others on this thread) sit, the answers to the above questions seem abundantly clear and the questions are almost rhetorical. But I am asking you for your answers.

Now I expect some more rug sweeping, excuses for her actions and behaviour and even some delusional stuff about her being good etc, but am hoping that you will give this some serious thought and then reply.

The only real question should have been what you are going to do about it, but you cannot properly answer that until you have dealt with facing the truth.

So please do not just ignore these questions - they are on the minds of a number of us here for a reason - summarised to DOES SHE LOVE OR EVEN LIKE YOU ? There seems to be no evidence to suggest yes.


----------



## ChargingCharlie

Tortdog said:


> I have told her that a few times. She backs off mighty quick for the most part. If she doesn't, then frees me up to do something else. Win win.


Good for you. Mine is very insecure, so she feels the need to let me know that I'm not doing anything correctly - makes her feel like she's in charge. She would never tell anyone else where to park, nor blow up at them because they parked one spot over from where she wants to park. One of these days I'm going to ask her if she was this way with her ex - should be interesting.


----------



## Tortdog

Diana7 said:


> Does her older daughter want her there for her whole holiday? I wouldnt have if I were in my late teens.


Actually, yes. Daughter is ecstatic that she is going. Daughter is not wise enough that showing that enthusiasm incentivizes wife to extend for 4 weeks. But I don't expect daughter to know that is a hardship on dad. Wife ... different story.


----------



## Tortdog

manfromlamancha said:


> Why does she stick it to you ? Do you think she is in love with you ? Forget about love, does she even like you ?


My view is that she does not believe that she is "sticking it to me." Her view is that her actions are completely normal and should be expected. She likely feels that she has no problem when I work away for 4 weeks so what's the big deal.

I am willing to believe that someone COULD believe that and still have love for the partner.

And, yes, I do think that she loves me but in her way. She is not a needy person as far as intimacy, and she prefers to be alone and read a book. One of her favorite things is to go to a beach, lie down next to a friend, and just read and say NOTHING. She is a party girl when she gets up for it ... and an amazing one. But I think she gets so much stimulus from her teaching, watching our kids, etc., that she treasures the alone time.

The other day she turned down my advance. So this morning I let her know as I started on her (she was half asleep) that she could go find another bed but staying in that bed meant that I was going to have my way with her. And I did. And she really enjoyed it and it was a good start.

For me, it's finding the balance I think in pushing things forward (when she does not) while not doing so at a time when she'd resent it. Because there are times that would piss her off.

Another learning is not to make things big when she doesn't see it as big. In her mind, this is a nothing (this whole vacation thing). She doesn't see why it's such a big deal. I think she has some maturing to do in realizing that when you hurt your spouse, regardless of YOUR view, it is a big deal.


----------



## Tortdog

ChargingCharlie said:


> Good for you. Mine is very insecure, so she feels the need to let me know that I'm not doing anything correctly - makes her feel like she's in charge. She would never tell anyone else where to park, nor blow up at them because they parked one spot over from where she wants to park. One of these days I'm going to ask her if she was this way with her ex - should be interesting.


Sometimes my wife just wants to be "part" of what I am doing (usually something on the honey-do list) and her contribution of suggestions (demands?) is her way of participating. To my shagrin, sometimes she comes up with an unorthodox suggestion in something that she KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT and, yet, she's right. So I have learned to be humble.

But she has as well. I started to do laundry to lighten her load. At first she would complain that I was doing it wrong. I have some choices: (i) tell her to do it herself, (ii) ignore her and do it anyway, (iii) do it her way, or (iv) come up with a mutually acceptable way forward. She was complaining that delicates (jeans with rhinestones, etc.) were being destroyed and I need to treat them special. I tried to guess what was "delicate" but apparently got it wrong again and again. So it's simple. There is a laundry basket for me and one for her. If she wants me to do some laundry then put it in that basket and I will get it done. She keeps back things she wants to make sure are done "right." So I'm now doing about 80% of the laundry and she does the rest. She doesn't get all upset. When I wash something "wrong" then I just advise she should have kept it back. We laugh.

And, candidly, I think I do laundry okay for a manly man ... whites, darks, medium and polyesters/non-cottons. I don't just throw things together and I am using the water temps my mom taught me. In the end, we have been found doing folding together more often than not that has helped some discussions between us.


----------



## bandit.45

How do you know she is actually going to go where she says she is going? How would you confirm it? 

How do you know she and her girlfriend aren't skipping over to Barbados for three weeks for nonstop partying and sex with beach boys who are hung like draft mules?


----------



## farsidejunky

Tortdog said:


> Another learning is not to make things big when she doesn't see it as big. In her mind, this is a nothing (this whole vacation thing). She doesn't see why it's such a big deal. I think she has some maturing to do in realizing that when you hurt your spouse, regardless of YOUR view, it is a big deal.


Be very careful with this line of thinking. If it is a big deal to you, you need to communicate it lest resentment poison your emotional well.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## 225985

Tort,

Do you love your wife? Knowing how this marriage is or has turned out, are you HAPPY with the decision you made to marry her?


----------



## Miss Independent

Tortdog said:


> Actually, yes. Daughter is ecstatic that she is going. Daughter is not wise enough that showing that enthusiasm incentivizes wife to extend for 4 weeks. But I don't expect daughter to know that is a hardship on dad. Wife ... different story.




Why is your daughter so attached to her mother? Does she have friends? A social life?


----------



## manfromlamancha

Jeez - talk about a pendulum! You seem to swing from she's OK and fun loving and justified (in her own mind) to she's terrible and doesn't care about me or what I say and puts herself first.

Which is it ? Good wife or bad wife ?


----------



## MarriedTex

Hey Tortdog,

Couple of unrelated parenting tips.

1. Do you use the term "babies" customarily in the house? If so, start weaning yourself off that right now. (Your daughter's departure for college would be a good cutoff point for making this change.) Your 10-year-old will be a teenager before you know it. The babies term will be viewed in one of two ways, both bad for you. Either they will grow to resent being called babies (already too old to be called that.) Or they will embrace the term for the long-haul - perhaps stunting their long-term drive to become independent of you. Sure, it's a term of endearment. But cut it out. Like, yesterday.

2. The close bond between Mother and Daughter could evolve in a way that's to your detriment. While not exactly the same, our situations do have some parallels - including the tight mother/daughter bond. When daughter leaves for college, electronics (texting etc.) will likely be used for those two to stay in close contact. Over time, all your interaction / knowledge of your daughter's activities will be filtered through your wife's interactions with her. (Even more than it is today.) My advice would be to set expectations fromt he start for one family Skype call a week that everybody participates in. Otherwise, there's a real risk that you could be completely shut out of your relationship with daughter. This is happening to me right now, and trying to figure out ways to reverse this trend.


----------



## Evinrude58

breeze said:


> It's not about them being the same thing, it's about the fact that he's been away many many times while she's been away a total of 3 times. It's about the fact that everyone knows that business trips aren't all made up of hard work and that's it; there's usually dinners etc that you get to go to, time spent enjoying yourself after a day is done. *Where is her right to have a trip away by herself? What, she doesn't get any rights? Figures.*
> 
> Uh, I don't see how the OP is trampling those "rights". It's the level of expense and 30 day romp that's the problem here. I don't even thing the 30 day thing would be unacceptable to OP if she would have done it at a cheaper time. He's not overbearing or "controlling" whatsoever that I see. You are majorly projecting, methinks.
> 
> *You try to claim it's at "his expense" - it's at her f*cking expense too. *
> 
> Uh, how's that? Where's the money coming from? Who will replace it? What's her share of the bills that she's paying? House note? Utilities? Phone? Insurance?
> No, it's NOT at her expense, and OP has been explaining that the whole time and made it quite clear. HE is the one that's footing the bill for this trip. And HE is the one taking care of things while she's gone.
> 
> 
> *People in marriage share money and time and even if she didn't get paid for her time spent looking after kids and home, that doesn't mean she should be penniless.*


She's getting paid for her time by having a free place to eat, live, and spending money to take a month-long European vacation. And you call her "penniless". If she divorces him, she'll get untold sums of money from OP, most likely. OP is clearly taking damn good care of his wife. And he's showing all kinds of patience and appreciation. He TOLD her to take the extra time. That's flat out on him. Some posters are right in saying he has no reason to complain because he told her to do it. He has said he is just not going to let her do this again without it being a totally mutual decision.

This woman spends money with no real regard for the work her husband does to earn it--as evidenced by her behavior. Lots of stay at home wives do. Yet I so rarely see them called on it.  Total double standard alright. Just not demonstrated by men in this case.

Does anyone really believe the wife in this case really cares about the religious ceremony involved? I don't. This trip is all about her having fun.


----------



## Evinrude58

Tortdog said:


> My view is that she does not believe that she is "sticking it to me." Her view is that her actions are completely normal and should be expected. She likely feels that she has no problem when I work away for 4 weeks so what's the big deal.
> 
> I am willing to believe that someone COULD believe that and still have love for the partner.
> 
> And, yes, I do think that she loves me but in her way. She is not a needy person as far as intimacy, and she prefers to be alone and read a book. One of her favorite things is to go to a beach, lie down next to a friend, and just read and say NOTHING. She is a party girl when she gets up for it ... and an amazing one. But I think she gets so much stimulus from her teaching, watching our kids, etc., that she treasures the alone time.
> 
> The other day she turned down my advance. *So this morning I let her know as I started on her (she was half asleep) that she could go find another bed but staying in that bed meant that I was going to have my way with her. And I did. And she really enjoyed it and it was a good start.*
> 
> For me, it's finding the balance I think in pushing things forward (when she does not) while not doing so at a time when she'd resent it. Because there are times that would piss her off.
> 
> Another learning is not to make things big when she doesn't see it as big. In her mind, this is a nothing (this whole vacation thing). She doesn't see why it's such a big deal. I think she has some maturing to do in realizing that when you hurt your spouse, regardless of YOUR view, it is a big deal.


OP,
I myself hate being half asleep in the morning and being harassed for sex. Surely you gotta understand that was not totally right on your part. And asking her to sleep elsewhere if she said no is also not cool.
I don't think you did the right thing, here. Do you really want a wife who only has sex with you because she feels obligated? Sounds like obligation sex to me. I think this is a very bad idea. If this continues, I suspect you'll be back to zero sex pretty quickly. I think I'd divorce and move on if you have to accept obligation sex.
JMO


----------



## lifeistooshort

Evinrude58 said:


> She's getting paid for her time by having a free place to eat, live, and spending money to take a month-long European vacation. And you call her "penniless". If she divorces him, she'll get untold sums of money from OP, most likely. OP is clearly taking damn good care of his wife. And he's showing all kinds of patience and appreciation. He TOLD her to take the extra time. That's flat out on him. Some posters are right in saying he has no reason to complain because he told her to do it. He has said he is just not going to let her do this again without it being a totally mutual decision.
> 
> This woman spends money with no real regard for the work her husband does to earn it--as evidenced by her behavior. Lots of stay at home wives do. Yet I so rarely see them called on it. Total double standard alright. Just not demonstrated by men in this case.
> 
> Does anyone really believe the wife in this case really cares about the religious ceremony involved? I don't. This trip is all about her having fun.



So she's his employee?

If that's how you see things I'm not surprised you're divorced. 

Since I work and make more than my hb does that mean it's ok for me to take off for a month? 

Is It my money?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog

bandit.45 said:


> How do you know she is actually going to go where she says she is going? How would you confirm it?
> 
> How do you know she and her girlfriend aren't skipping over to Barbados for three weeks for nonstop partying and sex with beach boys who are hung like draft mules?


First, it would be hard as she has advised she will be with daughter. But if she lied, then it would come out. Always does, right? Given her awareness of my feelings and her commitments, it would result in actions that likely we both would want.

So no worries there. 

Honestly, it's less about the trust. It's about the different value/prioritization of the two in the marriage.


----------



## Tortdog

Completely get you. I have already voiced the opposition but, now, support. So I have to think of a way forward to be sure that she knows "never again" without her thinking I am withdrawing support that I have promised.



farsidejunky said:


> Be very careful with this line of thinking. If it is a big deal to you, you need to communicate it lest resentment poison your emotional well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Tortdog

manfromlamancha said:


> Jeez - talk about a pendulum! You seem to swing from she's OK and fun loving and justified (in her own mind) to she's terrible and doesn't care about me or what I say and puts herself first.
> 
> Which is it ? Good wife or bad wife ?


I hear you. And I have changed in my views since this thread began, both because of input here as well as discussions with my wife.

I would say ... a wife who thinks she is doing everything good but not seeing the harm she inflicts. When that harm is explained she judges her feelings as more rational than the spouse's feelings, so she acts on her independence.

She's a great wife on so many levels. There are some rough edges but I have a few.

What this discussion has helped me in is try to figure out a solid way forward without appearing to "cave" and suboridnate/dismiss rational feelings away to placate the spouse. It got me the mutual agreement discussion. So ... learning?

Call me out. That's why I'm posting here.


----------



## Evinrude58

lifeistooshort said:


> So she's his employee?
> 
> *If that's how you see things I'm not surprised you're divorced.
> *
> Since I work and make more than my hb does that mean it's ok for me to take off for a month?
> 
> Is It my money?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a pretty low blow. Don't see a call for that.
My ex and I earned equal pay. She spent 2/3 of our money every month and put us in the hole every month. She'd likely admit to that.
We didn't divorce over money. We divorced because that's what she wanted. She's remarried. I guess it's a coincidence that the guy is wealthy and she's quitting her job in 2 weeks to stay at home.
It's obvious men are just paychecks to you, and we dare not have anything to say about how the stay at home wife spends those paychecks. 

Get back to work and pay for that trip OP. That's what these women expect. Hell, she's staying at home and slaving over the kids while they're in school, and has the house clean and supper on the stove when you return, right?

You seem to think that a woman who works in the home should be entitled to "x,y,z".
That's exactly what I feel OP's wife is---- ENTITLED.

I don't think the OP has done ANYTHING to make his wife feel unappreciated. He'd be fine if she'd have just gone romping around Europe--- at more reasonable time.

So what do YOU think he's doing to treat her like an employee????
Or is your post just directed at my thoughts because I feel he should have a say in how the money he earns is spent. And let's be clear, it was HIS work that earned it. Her name, I doubt, is on the paychecks. Her efforts at home may be worthy of x,y,z. Op's paychecks are limited in their amount. Should her spending be limited?
Apparently not by your thinking, Lifestooshort.


----------



## Tortdog

MarriedTex said:


> The close bond between Mother and Daughter could evolve in a way that's to your detriment. While not exactly the same, our situations do have some parallels - including the tight mother/daughter bond. When daughter leaves for college, electronics (texting etc.) will likely be used for those two to stay in close contact. Over time, all your interaction / knowledge of your daughter's activities will be filtered through your wife's interactions with her. (Even more than it is today.) My advice would be to set expectations fromt he start for one family Skype call a week that everybody participates in. Otherwise, there's a real risk that you could be completely shut out of your relationship with daughter. This is happening to me right now, and trying to figure out ways to reverse this trend.


Appreciate the advice. This video encapsulates my wife/daughter:

https://youtu.be/C_wUPnNeWYM

I am the left out guy in the video. My tussle is to learn to work in that "world" while not being second. Candidly, I believe that I already am. I'm not sure how to change it without my wife resenting it.


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## farsidejunky

Tortdog said:


> Completely get you. I have already voiced the opposition but, now, support. So I have to think of a way forward to be sure that she knows "never again" without her thinking I am withdrawing support that I have promised.


I agree. The ship has sailed on this trip. Next time, it is up to you to adequately communicate how you actually feel. This one is totally on you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Tortdog

spinsterdurga said:


> Why is your daughter so attached to her mother? Does she have friends? A social life?


No idea. I have thought about that a LONG time. My wife has ZERO relationship with her mom. I have a better relationship with MIL. 

Daughter was head cheerleader, and lots of friends. But the last year of high school she kind of became disenchanted with the moral life of a lot of her peers and she decided she didn't want to be part of it. I think it has been an overall hurt for her but now that she will be at a university, away from mom/family, I think it will be a big help.

Mom thinks so too.


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## 225985

blueinbr said:


> IMO, the underlying problem here is that OP is controlling.





Evinrude58 said:


> He's not overbearing or "controlling" whatsoever that I see.





Tortdog said:


> The other day she turned down my advance. So this morning I let her know as I started on her (she was half asleep) that she could go find another bed but staying in that bed meant that I was going to have my way with her. And I did.


Enough said.


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## Tortdog

Evinrude58 said:


> You seem to think that a woman who works in the home should be entitled to "x,y,z".
> That's exactly what I feel OP's wife is---- ENTITLED.


Feeling your view. I have never treated the money as mine. I put it into a family pot. I have expectations that it is withdrawn according to mutual agreement (but let's not go overboard).

When a spouse withdraws that money over the objections of the other spouse, that should be an issue, shouldn't it? I mean, how is that NOT selfish (or at least wrongful disregard of the other).

Put on top of that that the person who earned that money (and, no, the SAH spouse does not earn that money, though may make it easier for the other spouse to earn) has no right to feel screwed when someone else spent it?

Sure, I get lots of perks being that well-paid employee. I get to work 60 hours/week and come home and work some more. I get to stay away from my kids while my wife experiences the parent-teacher conferences, the spelling bees, the laughter and the tears. I get to avoid all that.

I know that being a SAH parent is a ton of work. I've done it in the past while my wife took off to play and left me to do it. But let's not ignore the perks. And I can't siphon off the perks that SHE gets by being a SAH parent. Those are lost forever. Yet arguing there is nothing wrong with SAH parent taking the money that the other spouse earns with complete disregard of that person's views if okay?

#notgettingit


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## Tortdog

blueinbr said:


> Enough said.


Yeah, and she loved it. It's a careful balance. You know how often I have done that in our 25+ years of marriage? 

Once.

And I wish I had done so before. Instead, I've allowed her to dictate when we have sexual relations for most of our marriage. I have heard some opine that's not quite right. 

Maybe I am silly but I think in a marriage that each spouse should be aware and responsive to the needs of the other spouse. Advice that I have received is that I have played hostage to the other spouse for too long and that she will respond well if done right and with good intent.

Guess what. It did. No regrets.


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## Tortdog

Evinrude58 said:


> OP,
> I myself hate being half asleep in the morning and being harassed for sex. Surely you gotta understand that was not totally right on your part. And asking her to sleep elsewhere if she said no is also not cool.
> I don't think you did the right thing, here. Do you really want a wife who only has sex with you because she feels obligated? Sounds like obligation sex to me. I think this is a very bad idea. If this continues, I suspect you'll be back to zero sex pretty quickly. I think I'd divorce and move on if you have to accept obligation sex.
> JMO


I do. She loves my sense of humor. Too often in the past I took her rejections personal (when she claims she meant none) and it was an emotional hit that she argued was silly. This was a huge turn off for her as she didn't want a whiny wanting spouse, but someone who would stick up for what he wants and be a "man." It's a delicate balance because at the same time my wife is NOT submissive (sure wish that she were).

She doesn't want someone to crawl into his shell when she says no. She wants someone who sees it for what it is and smiles about it. At the same time, she seems to appreciate a bit of a "we're doing this now" as long as it isn't REALLY interfering with her.

So this time I decided to have fun with her and "kick her out" if she wouldn't participate. And she enjoyed it. When I said that I was glad I did not head straight out to work, she smiled and agreed and thanked me for our time together.

No regrets.


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## Tortdog

Evinrude58 said:


> Does anyone really believe the wife in this case really cares about the religious ceremony involved? I don't. This trip is all about her having fun.


Well, I'd say both...


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## Evinrude58

blueinbr said:


> Enough said.


Controlling.....

Translation: the sorry ^^%%^ demands sex at least 4 times a year and only sends his wife to Europe for a month to play.

I wish someone would be more controlling with me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog

Way too funny...


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## farsidejunky

blueinbr said:


> Enough said.


Maybe. Some women like that. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Tortdog

I remember hearing about a couple where the wife had done something that pissed the man off, and he picked her up, carried her into the bedroom and started spanking her because she was bad. The "bad deed" was something completely non-sexual ... I think arguing in front of the kids or something like that. It could have been a big deal but he decided to try and make it fun.

They ended up completely making out on their bed and the point was made.

I think that would be a GREAT IDEA but my wife would NEVER go for that. She'd be even more pissed ... she'd see no humor in that.


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## phillybeffandswiss

blueinbr said:


> Enough said.


He was shot down, while I don't like his reaction it is not controlling, it is manipulation.


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## Tortdog

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He was shot down, while I don't like his reaction it is not controlling, it is manipulation.


This is why forums like this are helpful but limited. Just got out of a discussion with my wife. She made a comment about how she had been up so late, and then so early due to a certain someone. I commented that was the first time I decided to take things into my own hands when she was not showing the desire, with the warning to accept the consequences or get up and go to another bedroom. Her reaction with a smile, "I'm glad you did." She followed that with the statement that she would always let me know if she was truly opposed. 

I have no doubt on that one. She doesn't hesitate to do what she wants...


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## Mclane

Of course forums like this are limited. Most of us are not trained professionals, most or all of us have never met you, or your wife, we know nothing about you other than what you post in a few paragraphs over a few pages, and when you say things like "I forced my half asleep wife to have sex with me or else I'd kick her out of the bed" most of us see that as over the top controlling behavior until you clarify it by saying it's the first time you ever did it in over 25 years of marriage and the context in which it was done was acceptable to your wife.


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## Tortdog

I asked my wife what she thought about me taking the kids to Disney while she was gone. She thought it was a great idea but didn't want us to do the Disney Cruise without her. 

She just has quite different views than me. 

She also mentioned for the first time that she is starting to have regrets about being gone so long.


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## bandit.45

If she goes...buy a Harley.


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## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> If she goes...buy a Harley.


Or a vintage Indian.

Or take them on the Disney Cruise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

*This topic just brought back a few bad memories when I was married to my RSXW during the "descent phase" of our marriage!

She always saw fit to go on one of her vaunted "business trips" with her best female friend from college and business partner, to either Hawaii, Grand Cayman, London, Stockholm, or Budapest, all without me ~ with me being delegated to stay in town to tend to her horses and the ranch work, or primordially to be there in town if one of her ingrate dope head offspring got picked up by the local legal authorities! They always seemed to stay in the finest digs, no matter where they went!

The Hawaiian trip still strikes a raw chord with me as I later discovered that she was having marathon cell phone and texting sessions with her deceased first husbands best friend who was back in the Austin/Hill Country area of Texas.

Of course, I never found out about this until our "trial separation" when I examined and scrutinized our joint cell phone records to find our that she had been a very busy little girl! There was also this one cell phone number in San Diego that she had been busy calling during that trip!

The year prior to our separation, 2010, she sent the boys and I off to North Dakota and Canada to see their maternal grandfather who had been in failing health. When I told her that I was going to run them by Yellowstone on the way back home, she pitched a b!tch telling me that she wanted to make that trip as she had wanted to go there with all of us on a family vacation! So I relented!

Had a fabulous time with the boys on that trip but I never found any real telephone impropriety on her part during that trip ~ but that doesn't exactly mean that there wasn't any!
*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrsAldi

This thread reminds me of the film "inception" every time I read it, we get into a deeper layer! @Tortdog I'm having trouble here with the bedroom situation.
You used extortion to get sex & you wonder why your wife doesn't want to be around you? 
I'm not attacking you at all. I just think you really need to look at yourself & your actions.
I understand what's its like to be in an intimacy desert & but we cannot force people into things. 
You guys need to seek professional help before things get much worse. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Tortdog

MrsAldi said:


> This thread reminds me of the film "inception" every time I read it, we get into a deeper layer! @Tortdog I'm having trouble here with the bedroom situation.
> You used extortion to get sex & you wonder why your wife doesn't want to be around you?
> I'm not attacking you at all. I just think you really need to look at yourself & your actions.
> I understand what's its like to be in an intimacy desert & but we cannot force people into things.
> You guys need to seek professional help before things get much worse.
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


That was a better book than a movie. 

She had a choice. 

She chose to stay. 

She thanked me afterwards. 

Tell me when I should start to feel guilty. Oh, and by the way I credit the discussions I have had on this board for giving me the perspective I needed to take a chance and it worked out beautifully so... Thank you.


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## 225985

@Tortdog A positive consequence of you wife's well deserved 4 week trip is that you will have plenty of time to spend here on TAM while she is gone. :smile2:


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## farsidejunky

There seem to be a lot of folks getting wrapped around the axle about this sexual encounter. I fail to understand why.

Even his wife said she enjoyed the encounter. Based on that alone, I would encourage the OP to do it _more_.

Maybe the piece that is missing is your wife actually wants you to be more assertive. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Tortdog

blueinbr said:


> @Tortdog A positive consequence of you wife's well deserved 4 week trip is that you will have plenty of time to spend here on TAM while she is gone. :smile2:


Made me smile. I had some time this week due to a long conference... Now back to the regular grind.


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## MrsAldi

@Tortdog maybe I should kick my husband out of the bedroom? He probably arrest me for extortion but I'd actually like that! So maybe your wife did like it. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

Tortdog said:


> This is why forums like this are helpful but limited.


You quoted me so, I am unsure of the purpose. Yes, they are limited, but no matter how you frame what you did, even in the most positive light, it sounds different in words than how you see your actions. I used "manipulation," someone just used the word "force", someone else said "controlling" and as more read it is probably going to get worse. 

Don't be surprised when two very specific terms turn this thread ugly.


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## Tortdog

farsidejunky said:


> Maybe the piece that is missing is your wife actually wants you to be more assertive.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


You have no idea how hard that is to read from her. She is not submissive in the least, but she does like being taken when she wants it. I don't think that she is consciously choosing anything other than she knows what she wants and go gets it. If she would not be offended if someone did the same thing to her, she expects you should feel the same and if you aren't "man enough" to deal with it then grow some and get over it.

Now when it comes to the kids, she will do anything until they pass her off.


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## bandit.45

Start doing more things to better yourself and release your inner caveman. Be a guy. She will actually be attracted to you more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila

@tortdog, you posted about your infidelity on another thread (has since been deleted), specifically about how your wife forgave you. Is it possible that some of the behaviors you see in her now are latent resentment from when you cheated? Was the adultery dealt with in counseling?


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## Tortdog

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You quoted me so, I am unsure of the purpose. Yes, they are limited, but no matter how you frame what you did, even in the most positive light, it sounds different in words than how you see your actions. I used "manipulation," someone just used the word "force", someone else said "controlling" and as more read it is probably going to get worse.
> 
> Don't be surprised when two very specific terms turn this thread ugly.


Not worried at all. I'm new here but not to forums. I find this a very helpful place.


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## lifeistooshort

Lila said:


> @tortdog, you posted about your infidelity on another thread (has since been deleted), specifically about how your wife forgave you. Is it possible that some of the behaviors you see in her now are latent resentment from when you cheated? Was the adultery dealt with in counseling?


Whoa, if there's been infidelity involved that changes a whole lot. 
Convenient bit of information to leave out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Tortdog said:


> You have no idea how hard that is to read from her. She is not submissive in the least, but she does like being taken when she wants it. I don't think that she is consciously choosing anything other than she knows what she wants and go gets it. If she would not be offended if someone did the same thing to her, she expects you should feel the same and if you aren't "man enough" to deal with it then grow some and get over it.
> 
> Now when it comes to the kids, she will do anything until they pass her off.


You will have to teach her empathy.

"Wife, would you be okay with me doing x to you?"

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MrsAldi

@Tortdog sorry like I said before I wasn't attacking you, just remember to get consent. We've had cases where these things have happened. Just remember to say "are you sure this is OK sweetheart" etc 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Dafuq? Cheating? When?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Lila

lifeistooshort said:


> Whoa, if there's been infidelity involved that changes a whole lot.
> Convenient bit of information to leave out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would certainly explain some of these so-called "selfish" and "aggressive" acts. Kind of a "I dare you to take umbrage". YKWIM.


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## Evinrude58

Tortdog said:


> I asked my wife what she thought about me taking the kids to Disney while she was gone. She thought it was a great idea but didn't want us to do the Disney Cruise without her.
> 
> She just has quite different views than me.
> 
> She also mentioned for the first time that she is starting to have regrets about being gone so long.


Dude, 
It sounds like things are coming together. Love your wife. Make her happy and satisfied in the bedroom and show her it's not all about you.
Be forgiving, but be firm with what's important. 
I think that's a good sign what she said
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kraquin

My wife went on a vacation for a week without me in the first year we were married. She went with her daughter and grandson. I didn't get it and it never would have crossed my mind to do something like that. We discussed it when she came back and she never did it again but it has since turned into one of my "rules". She tosses it out there to try and provoke me whenever she feels like stoking the ire.


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## Mclane

Lila said:


> @tortdog, you posted about your infidelity on another thread (has since been deleted)


Well, this is interesting.

It's like the guy who tells the therapist all the bad things about his partner while conveniently leaving out his own flaws.

It might look good on paper but how can you expect pertinent advice? The question is of course rhetorical.


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## Evinrude58

Indeed, 
Not getting sex after cheating is pretty common, I'd think. Lots of respect lost, distrust, etc. OP may be lucky to have what he has with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog

As I mentioned on the other thread (I did not delete), after a long marriage in a sexless relationship and after joint counseling with no change I made a decision to move on. I was too much of a coward, though, to just divorce. I drew a line past which I would not go and was pretty open about it. I didn't hide things. 

When she challenged me on it, I told her everything and we had decisions to make. Before she figured it out,i had already made a decision to stay with her even if she never changed and we never had sex again. I decided that sexual satisfaction but life without her was not for me. 

So since them, we have reconciled and, ironically, our sexual intimacy is now at a point where it is satisfying and a vast improvement from the past. 

I still wish that I had never made some past choices but the other side wonders if our relationship would have become where it is now. 

How she does things has not changed as far as being fiercely independent regardless if my views and the impact on me. That has been her style for the last 20 years, at least.


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## bandit.45

She should have dumped your ass but she didn't. Just let her do her travel thing. Buy a Harley. 

I don't understand people who unnecessarily complicate their own lives. Christ.....


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## BBF

There's a famous quote by Amelia Earhart who when asked why did she want to fly around the world said, "I want to do it because I want to do it." My wife is a "I want to do it because I want to do it" person too. She really doesn't consider what other people might want. That consideration is not just remote, it is missing from her personality--totally missing. We're redoing a new to us, but 15-year-old house. She'll buy paint colors, set up projects, hang pictures, place furniture all without a thought of consulting me. Sometimes its its good. Sometimes its crap. If I comment, it's "complaining." But, she will change things.

We have an expression around our place: "Often in error, but never in doubt." She doesn't consult ahead of time--it just isn't in her DNA. Sounds like your wife. Except mine won't dig in once she's seen adverse consequences of her actions. 

And there's another phrase that comes to mind after reading some of the comments by the more strident goosestepping XX-chromosome Birkenstockers (don't call them "Harridans" as they don't like that and will report you to ban you and silence your opinion unwelcome-in-their-little-world.) "What's yours is ours and what's mine is mine" when it comes to the wage-earning hubby. 

My solution, get a new Alfa Romeo Guilia spyder. Red is nice.


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## Mclane

My opinion regarding this situation has vastly changed with the updated information.

Just let her go and stop complaining. 

She's put up with more than any spouse should ever have to. 

She deserves the trip, at the very least.


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## bandit.45

BBF said:


> My solution, get a new Alfa Romeo Guilia spyder. Red is nice.


Harley.


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## MattMatt

My advice would have been different had all the pertinent facts been to hand. 

My advice, now? 

Give her an extra $1,000 spending money.

*And buy your wife a Harley!*


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## Tortdog

So a quick update. The rest of us are going to Disney World, staying at the resort, and just going to have a blast. I have hooked my wife up with a friend who knows a lot about Europe to try and make her trip a great one. 

Also found out yesterday that she will be gone for 5 weeks...


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## Evinrude58

"It's like a nightmare, isn't it? It just keeps getting worse and worse."

5 weeks?
Sexless marriage for years?

Ask yourself this question:
Does she love me, or my paycheck?

I really think you're delaying the inevitable and wasting the time you have left to find a mate that actually likes you.

Then again, I think your wife will hang in there as long as you keep bringing in the money..,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

"And there's another phrase that comes to mind after reading some of the comments by the more strident goosestepping XX-chromosome Birkenstockers (don't call them "Harridans" as they don't like that and will report you to ban you and silence your opinion unwelcome-in-their-little-world.)"

Yep, we're a real blister on your butt. Your opinion is unwelcome because it's horseshyte.


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## lifeistooshort

Gee, my cheating got my wife to give me duty sex, I can't understand why spending time with me isn't a priority for her. I assumed the cheating made her like me more. 

Because I was entitled to it and I continue to make excuses for it. 

Yeah, that makes sense. 

I'm trying to imagine a scenario where a woman "moves on" (translation: fvcks other men) without pursuing divorce and gets treated as nicely as OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks

MattMatt said:


> My advice would have been different had all the pertinent facts been to hand.
> 
> My advice, now?
> 
> Give her an extra $1,000 spending money.
> 
> *And buy your wife a Harley!*


The Devil's in the details.


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## Marc878

*Deidre* said:


> The problem doesn't seem like the vacation away without you - sounds more like your wife doesn't respect you. That's where the focus needs to be and if your marriage is going to work for happily ever after....she needs to start respecting you. And you need to feel you deserve it.


I've done the two week business trips to Asia. I took another job to get away from that crap. Extremely tiring. People who think traveling for business is fun usually haven't done it.

Read up
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrB..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=Lnr_uY1dKv5ebLCfee0Exjuq9iI-


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## Evinrude58

I don't see where anyone excuses his cheating. ??????

However, he should have divorced this woman that obviously doesn't love him and is just using him as a free ride through life. Then he'd have gotten some love and intimacy. I really think this guy loves his wife and she is guilty of not loving him in return. 
I do think one should consider mitigating circumstances like a sexless marriage in the case of cheating by men and women, but it's still not excused. Just divorce.
Do you think OP would have cheated if his wife was taking care of her part? I don't. What he did was wrong either way. I don't overlook that crap.
I don't overlook her using him while she tours Europe, either. 

I can see her divorcing him not long after she returns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

lifeistooshort said:


> Gee, my cheating got my wife to give me duty sex, I can't understand why spending time with me isn't a priority for her. I assumed the cheating made her like me more.
> 
> Because I was entitled to it and I continue to make excuses for it.
> 
> Yeah, that makes sense.
> 
> I'm trying to imagine a scenario where a woman "moves on" (translation: fvcks other men) without pursuing divorce and gets treated as nicely as OP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally agree OP is only getting duty sex. What's strange is he thinks everything is ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

BBF said:


> And there's another phrase that comes to mind after reading some of the comments by the more strident goosestepping XX-chromosome Birkenstockers (don't call them "Harridans" as they don't like that and will report you to ban you and silence your opinion unwelcome-in-their-little-world.) "What's yours is ours and what's mine is mine" when it comes to the wage-earning hubby.



Harridans = a strict, bossy, or belligerent old woman.

Name calling is against forum rules.

So that's why you just might get banned.


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## *Deidre*

Marc878 said:


> I've done the two week business trips to Asia. I took another job to get away from that crap. Extremely tiring. People who think traveling for business is fun usually haven't done it.
> 
> Read up
> http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrB..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=Lnr_uY1dKv5ebLCfee0Exjuq9iI-


It's been a while since I've viewed this thread, is she going away on business travel? Thought it was for pleasure.


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## manfromlamancha

EleGirl said:


> Harridans = a strict, bossy, or belligerent old woman.
> 
> Name calling is against forum rules.
> 
> So that's why you just might get banned.


Oh ….. I just thought it was a shortened version of my friend's name (Harriet Daniels) - see her below


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## happy as a clam

Is this still a sexless marriage? If so, the way I see it is the vacation plans are the least of your problems...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tortdog

*Deidre* said:


> It's been a while since I've viewed this thread, is she going away on business travel? Thought it was for pleasure.


Pleasure


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## Tortdog

happy as a clam said:


> Is this still a sexless marriage? If so, the way I see it is the vacation plans are the least of your problems...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Used to be. We finally addressed the sexless marriage issue and that has vastly improved. 

Will spill more later.


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## Butthead100

You should plan the next vacation for the both of you and see how that goes. Have you ever planned a vacation for the family on your own ,like most men I doubt it. Maybe I'm biased because of my own issues . See my H is a saboteur , every trip I have planned has been brought down by him crying he needs to go see his daddy , I want him to go visit his daddy I had no issues in fact I went with him every weekend to visit when we first moved away with our child and still encourage him to see his daddy I ever bought him plane tix . When his daddy moved out of the country I sent him to see him . . .In fact I went with him and our kids for 10 days and I got to cook and clean and battle palmetto roaches the entire time . I again sent him to see daddy this year for 10 days . I have no issues on him seeing his dad ,never had . But our family has missed out on much family bonding because of H dad issues every family trip I plan over the past 19 yrs he mentions he needs to visit his dad ( then I feel guilty about our trip ). Also he complains about everything when we try to take a small WE trip ,he's hot he's cold ,he don't like the food etc . I need a vacation , I work ,I also workout I look good I'm going to be 50 but look 40 ,I keep a neat home , I take good care of our children, I'm thrifty, I have a good sense of humor . . . I am not lazy, entitled . I finally had enough and decided last yr to take separate vacations ,trips etc . I will vacation with my parents or my younger son, my parents are divorced so it would be two vaccays a yr " on the cheap " and I will buy him tickets to vacation at daddy's . I feel it's the beginning of the end of my marriage I'm tired of trying . He now says he wants to take a trip with me but at this point just the thought of it makes me sick with hurt . We had a big arguments over it about a yr ago and he called me a waste and worthless , I don't think I'll ever really get over it because he said exactly how I felt in my marriage to him , that's how he always made me feel ,never good enough . I guess that's why I always tried so hard to be a good wife and mom. I spoiled him I think trying to get his approval,but I'm older now I've grown wiser but also more tired and my youngest child is almost grown , so I think my marriage is almost over 6 yrs to go but I think it's over I can't allow myself to be hurt anymore . Sad thing is now H wants the vaccay with me I can't because it I emotionally can't go there anymore ,it's like he wants to hurt me, giving the opposite of what I need in this marriage . . . Thatsy story .

I think you should plan a trip for the both of you for the next yr , see how it goes . She may surprise you .


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