# A link for the WS on anger



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/anger-dealing-with-betrayal

I found this link and it felt like I wrote it myself as I was reading it. Figured I would share it.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

unsureone said:


> https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/anger-dealing-with-betrayal
> 
> I found this link and it felt like I wrote it myself as I was reading it. Figured I would share it.


WS's don't have the right of anger. Shame, remorse, humiliation, sadness...those are emotions they're entitled to but anger? No.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Sorry, regardless of what someone has or has not done, you don't really get to define someelse's humanity by saying which emotions they "deserve."

Cheaters may be horrible people, but they are people.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Starstarfish said:


> Sorry, regardless of what someone has or has not done, you don't really get to define someelse's humanity by saying which emotions they "deserve."
> 
> Cheaters may be horrible people, but they are people.


Horrible horrible people. Their first step to recovery is admitting what kind of person they are. I said they're not entitle to feel angry and they're not. The person, or people, they betrayed deserve to be angry. Cheaters are filth. Scum.


----------



## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Horrible horrible people. Their first step to recovery is admitting what kind of person they are. I said they're not entitle to feel angry and they're not. The person, or people, they betrayed deserve to be angry. Cheaters are filth. Scum.



I agree with the recovery step of taking an honest inventory of their actions. 

Not all cheaters are inherently horrible. Some are evil, some are mentally ill, some are just selfish and uncaring. Cheaters come in all shapes and sizes, serial cheaters who maliciously destroy their BS to the cheater with low boundaries who regrets their behavior. 

The problem is most people won't take ownership of their own bad choices. It's always someone else's fault or an "accident". Taking ownership means feeling responsibility for your own actions, that takes a level of awareness and honesty that would shatter most people's illusion of themselves.


----------



## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

This link is useless without the Reflective Visual Capture mode app or software installed....In the olden day's they were called mirrors.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

So the hurt spouse is allowed to be verbally abusive the cheater forever because they need to pay? Regardless of their efforts to repair their marriage?

I disagree. It's unacceptable to punish your spouse for eternity? How can you ever reconcile or rebuild? With the for eye an eye....? Not every cheat is the same. All hurtful and selfish. But to be angry at someone because they deserve it, they are only hurting themselves more. No one can say how long someone will be angry, but for ever? I understand every now and again.

I live it.. everyday. I try my hardest everyday. I have jumped through hoops, bent over backwards, done things most wouldn't. I am not perfect at all. But I deserve to be yelled at whenever he wants? Like a punching bag? Because I had an emotional email affair? Like I don't matter?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Acoa said:


> I agree with the recovery step of taking an honest inventory of their actions.
> 
> Not all cheaters are inherently horrible. Some are evil, some are mentally ill, some are just selfish and uncaring. Cheaters come in all shapes and sizes, serial cheaters who maliciously destroy their BS to the cheater with low boundaries who regrets their behavior.
> 
> The problem is most people won't take ownership of their own bad choices. It's always someone else's fault or an "accident". Taking ownership means feeling responsibility for your own actions, that takes a level of awareness and honesty that would shatter most people's illusion of themselves.


Great post. I totally agree. Taking ownership of what they've done would force them to admit what kind of person they really are. Some just won't do that. I won't mention names but there's a very popular WS right here on this board who still says she's a good person with integrity. I didn't want to bother arguing with her but I did give her statement a huge LOL.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

unsureone said:


> So the hurt spouse is allowed to be verbally abusive the cheater forever because they need to pay?


No.



unsureone said:


> Regardless of their efforts to repair their marriage?


No.



unsureone said:


> I disagree. It's unacceptable to punish your spouse for eternity?


I'll answer as if you'd typed "acceptable"...

No.



unsureone said:


> How can you ever reconcile or rebuild?


You can't. The BS has to be _willing_ to both forgive and heal.



unsureone said:


> With the for eye an eye....? Not every cheat is the same. All hurtful and selfish. But to be angry at someone because they deserve it, they are only hurting themselves more. No one can say how long someone will be angry, but for ever? I understand every now and again.


Perpetual anger isn't healthy.



unsureone said:


> I live it.. everyday. I try my hardest everyday. I have jumped through hoops, bent over backwards, done things most wouldn't. I am not perfect at all. But I deserve to be yelled at whenever he wants?


No.



unsureone said:


> Like a punching bag? Because I had an emotional email affair? Like I don't matter?


No, no, and no.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> Great post. I totally agree. Taking ownership of what they've done would force them to admit what kind of person they really are. Some just won't do that. I won't mention names but there's a very popular WS right here on this board who still says she's a good person with integrity. I didn't want to bother arguing with her but I did give her statement a huge LOL.


Are you talking about an _active_ wayward or a _former_ wayward?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

unsureone said:


> So the hurt spouse is allowed to be verbally abusive the cheater forever because they need to pay? Regardless of their efforts to repair their marriage?
> 
> I disagree. It's unacceptable to punish your spouse for eternity? How can you ever reconcile or rebuild? With the for eye an eye....? Not every cheat is the same. All hurtful and selfish. But to be angry at someone because they deserve it, they are only hurting themselves more. No one can say how long someone will be angry, but for ever? I understand every now and again.
> 
> I live it.. everyday. I try my hardest everyday. I have jumped through hoops, bent over backwards, done things most wouldn't. I am not perfect at all. But I deserve to be yelled at whenever he wants? Like a punching bag? Because I had an emotional email affair? Like I don't matter?



I never said forever. For me it was two years. If during that time she had gotten angry at us then there would have been no chance at R. Cheaters don't have that right. They forfeited it. Only if they truly humble themselves and admit what they are do they have any hope at real redemption. If they get angry it means they still think they have some kind of moral high ground and have been offended.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Are you talking about an _active_ wayward or a _former_ wayward?


None of us really know either way for sure since WS's have proven their capacity and skill at lying.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> None of us really know either way for sure since WS's have proven their capacity and skill at lying.


Kev, with respect, I think it may be a good idea for you to take a few days away from TAM.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

unsureone said:


> I live it.. everyday. I try my hardest everyday. I have jumped through hoops, bent over backwards, done things most wouldn't. I am not perfect at all. But I deserve to be yelled at whenever he wants? Like a punching bag? Because I had an emotional email affair? Like I don't matter?


You do matter but you have to accept that you violated the most sacred agreement that a human being can enter into with another human being. You have to truly humble yourself. Any anger you feel toward the people you've betrayed means you haven't 100% humbled yourself. We feel anger when we think we've been wronged. Cheaters have wronged but they haven't been wronged unless your spouse was also cheating.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Kev, with respect, I think it may be a good idea for you to take a few days away from TAM.


Think about it though. Once someone crosses the line and lies and betrays the people they supposedly love the most, how can you guarantee they're ever telling the truth again? You can take a leap of faith and trust them but you can't guarantee anything.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

KingwoodKev said:


> I never said forever. For me it was two years. If during that time she had gotten angry at us then there would have been no chance at R. Cheaters don't have that right. They forfeited it. Only if they truly humble themselves and admit what they are do they have any hope at real redemption. If they get angry it means they still think they have some kind of moral high ground and have been offended.



My anger was after 2 years of being yelled at and told everything I did to save it was wrong. Maybe it didnt fit his picture in his head? I dont know. I openly admit all my wrong doings, but I have to endure my past before him thrown at me. That makes me angry. I understand the anger. I own it as something I brought to us. I just dont understand how keeping it here helps. Being told over and over again I deserve it, makes no sense. 

I posted it because I believe my Spouse is stuck in the unfairness role and I truly want him to heal, I truly want him happy. But I am not a doormat. I he had a bad day, Ok. I deserve it. If he has triggers, I deserve that. But to yell at me and throw all my past before him? How does that make sense? But I made our life thi way, so I deserve that. But after 6 + years, I am angry. I am angry at myself. I think the article is for for parties. It offered me understanding of where he is coming from more than trying him to be ok with me getting angry.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

KingwoodKev said:


> You do matter but you have to accept that you violated the most sacred agreement that a human being can enter into with another human being. You have to truly humble yourself. Any anger you feel toward the people you've betrayed means you haven't 100% humbled yourself. We feel anger when we think we've been wronged. Cheaters have wronged but they haven't been wronged unless your spouse was also cheating.



I am angry at being yelled at for things that were before us. I am angry that despite all efforts I am yelled at. I am angry that It is yelling. Not talking. That I never know what will cause him to snap. I am angry at myself for allowing our life to be this way. I get angry that everything, I mean EVERYTHING in my life is me being selfish. That everything I do is under the microscope. Not like I cant go to the store alone or whatever, but if I want to exercise, great - its healthy and it would be good for you and then in turn its me being selfish because I have plenty of housework to do and I am trying to look good for someone else. Its never right no matter what I do. And if I do nothing for myself, I am being extreme. 

I still love this man. With all my heart. And all my soul. I still have a small shred of hope he will one day love me. But at what point is the WS allowed to get angry for being mistreated as a result of the affair?


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*IMHO, what it is that truly separates a cheater from their former, sordid, self-serving act, is their genuine, remorseful, embracing and ownership of "the truth."

Without that ownership, they will fastly continue to live in denial, hiding behind a false facade, largely believing that all is OK between them with everyone in the world, save their betrayed spouse!

By cheating their spouse, they have also cheated God, and in time must ardently confess to both, to truly seek and receive both the forgiveness and mercy that they so need!

To do otherwise just greatly subjects them, to either their newfounded or continuous, unrepentent station in life as the cheater and the liar that they have summarily volunteered themselves to become!

And to sadly remain that way until the day that they must face their Creator in judgement! I'd be forced to say that that's an unduly heavy burden to bring upon themselves to bear!*


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

unsureone said:


> My anger was after 2 years of being yelled at and told everything I did to save it was wrong. Maybe it didnt fit his picture in his head? I dont know. I openly admit all my wrong doings, but I have to endure my past before him thrown at me. That makes me angry. I understand the anger. I own it as something I brought to us. I just dont understand how keeping it here helps. Being told over and over again I deserve it, makes no sense.
> 
> I posted it because I believe my Spouse is stuck in the unfairness role and I truly want him to heal, I truly want him happy. But I am not a doormat. I he had a bad day, Ok. I deserve it. If he has triggers, I deserve that. But to yell at me and throw all my past before him? How does that make sense? But I made our life thi way, so I deserve that. But after 6 + years, I am angry. I am angry at myself. I think the article is for for parties. It offered me understanding of where he is coming from more than trying him to be ok with me getting angry.


I guess you're right. Maybe he can't get to a point where he's not angry. As a BS myself I'd say you should get from him a list of things he would want for R to get going and for his anger to subside. I'm a technology solutions architect. A problem solver. I actually formally documented everything my WW would have to do to move forward if we were to ever get back together. She did every one of those things. All of them. If she did that and I was still being hateful toward her then that means we're probably done. As is, my rage has subsided because she met my requirements. Talk about it with him, write it out, and move forward.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I may get the 2X4's here but here goes anyway. I chose to R with my ww. I went over our entire relationship from our first meeting to d-day. I chose to accept that she is broken, capable of actions I never thought possible. I scrutinized her period of cheating. I scrutinized our marriage from wedding day to the affair. What I found is the cheating is on my WW solely, and that neither of us were perfect in the marriage. Our marriage was not as good as I had thought before her affair, that is on both of us. It is also not a reason to cheat. My WW made extremely terrible choices, and both of us have paid a heavy price. After I scrutinized everything I could I offered R to her. 

I can only control me, I can't control her, she may cheat again and she may not. What my WW has gone through is very difficult also. It's not easy for either spouse. Both spouses have to fully commit for any hope of R to work. I have moments where I am in a blind rage over her cheating, but I am not abusive towards her. The garage is another story. We communicate like we did when we dated. We tell each other everything, no secrets whatsoever. We are vulnerable towards each other. My marriage is getting stronger, but we had to self reflect to painful levels to correct our faults. I have had many bad days including depression, suicidal thoughts, hopelessness and a host of many others. My WW has had bad days also, guilt, shame, hopelessness, regret, and a host of others. We talk each other through our difficult moments, we show love towards each other constantly.

My WW deserves my anger for her cheating but she does not deserve abuse. Not physically, mentally, or verbally. Period. Nobody should be abused. My WW and I struggle with R each and every day, but each and every day we become stronger and more united. I imagine that in the future happiness will return fully for me, at least it's my hope. I wish things could have gone differently and that I didn't have to go through this, I wish my two choices weren't divorce or reconciliation. Reality is it happened, I will find my way through, and hopefully in the process my WW and I become better people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/size

Edit for spelling


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

drifting on said:


> I may get the 2X4's her but here goes anyway. I chose to R with my ww. I went over our entire relationship from our first meeting to d-day. I chose to accept that she is broken, capable of actions I never thought possible. I scrutinized her period of cheating. I scrutinized our marriage from wedding day to the affair. What I found is the cheating is on my WW solely, and that neither of us were perfect in the marriage. Our marriage was not as good as I had thought before her affair, that is on both of us. It is also not a reason to cheat. My WW made extremely terrible choices, and both of us have paid a heavy price. After I scrutinized everything I could I offered R to her.
> 
> I can only control me, I can't control her, she may cheat again and she may not. What my WW has gone through is very difficult also. It's not easy for either spouse. Both spouses have to fully commit for any hope of R to work. I have moments where I am in a blind rage over her cheating, but I am not abusive towards her. The garage is another story. We communicate like we did when we dated. We tell each other everything, no secrets whatsoever. We are vulnerable towards each other. My marriage is getting stronger, but we had to self reflect to painful levels to correct our faults. I have had many bad days including depression, suicidal thoughts, hopelessness and a host of many others. My WW has had bad days also, guilt, shame, hopelessness, regret, and a host of others. We talk each other through our difficult moments, we show love towards each other constantly.
> 
> ...


* You're a good husband, Drifting! And a better man! *


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm pretty sure everyone who commits any sin will eventually need to answer for it if you follow Biblical Christianity. 

And I'm pretty sure that in there looking at a woman with lust is considered adultery In the eyes of God, so ... Taking it physical is not required for it to already be a sin. 

So bringing in God to support the whole cheaters are evil people who have committed the most grievous sins is a position with no basis. All sins are equal in the eyes of God.


----------



## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> * You're a good husband, Drifting! And a better man! *


Thank you for the kind words arbitrator!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

From the article



> It is more than possible to find healing and reconciliation, but for an injured spouse the journey after betrayal is not easy. What is sad isn’t her inability to forgive, but the fact that the bitterness resulting from what has occurred and her lack of anger management is destroying them both.


F him! Forgiveness is a gift. Damn strait a woman is entitled to be angry if her husband cheats. The cheating husbands entitled attitude about deserving forgiveness is yet another thing to be angry about.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> Think about it though. Once someone crosses the line and lies and betrays the people they supposedly love the most, how can you guarantee they're ever telling the truth again? You can take a leap of faith and trust them but you can't guarantee anything.


Believe me -- I _*totally*_ understand that.


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

And I'll further pile on - Lets say that a BS just can't let go of the anger. And that anger and bitterness leads the WS to throw in the towel because they can't take the anger anymore.

It's still the WS's fault the marriage is over...


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> I'm pretty sure everyone who commits any sin will eventually need to answer for it if you follow Biblical Christianity.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure that in there looking at a woman with lust is considered adultery In the eyes of God, so ... Taking it physical is not required for it to already be a sin.
> 
> So bringing in God to support the whole cheaters are evil people who have committed the most grievous sins is a position with no basis. *All sins are equal in the eyes of God.*


*That is so very true! But the big difference is that while God brings himself into the equation, He lovingly invites us to work with and for Him!*


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> And I'll further pile on - Lets say that a BS just can't let go of the anger. And that anger and bitterness leads the WS to throw in the towel because they can't take the anger anymore.
> 
> It's still the WS's fault the marriage is over...


*Larry: I'd say that over the course of time, that if the BS has not summarily forgiven the WS, then he holds equal, but separate blame in the process.

Forgiving should be always be a mandatory prerequisite in moving on. Remembering about what happenedis optional! It's how we choose to remember the bad things that happened to us that seemingly makes all the difference in the world!

If done to better or to laugh at our own selves, is one thing! But if done to overtly and constantly demean while unforgivingly chiding and condemning their WS, either directly or to their family, is clearly another!*


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

larry.gray said:


> And I'll further pile on - Lets say that a BS just can't let go of the anger. And that anger and bitterness leads the WS to throw in the towel because they can't take the anger anymore.
> 
> It's still the WS's fault the marriage is over...


It is the WS fault. I take all responsibility for it. I will one day apologize to my children when they are old enough. ....I already feel like the scum of the earth.


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

KingwoodKev said:


> unsureone said:
> 
> 
> > My anger was after 2 years of being yelled at and told everything I did to save it was wrong. Maybe it didnt fit his picture in his head? I dont know. I openly admit all my wrong doings, but I have to endure my past before him thrown at me. That makes me angry. I understand the anger. I own it as something I brought to us. I just dont understand how keeping it here helps. Being told over and over again I deserve it, makes no sense.
> ...



Thank you. I will ask him. He is a problem solver personality. Works on something until he finds a solution. Maybe this would help us both.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Sorry, regardless of what someone has or has not done, you don't really get to define someelse's humanity by saying which emotions they "deserve."
> 
> Cheaters may be horrible people, but they are people.


And Charles Manson may be an evil person, but he is still a person.

And Kev wasn't defining their humanity. Simply saying they are not entitled to "anger". They can feel self entitled if they want, but others know its a load of sh*t


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

unsureone said:


> So the hurt spouse is allowed to be verbally abusive the cheater forever because they need to pay?


Not forever, no.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Acoa said:


> I agree with the recovery step of taking an honest inventory of their actions.
> 
> Not all cheaters are inherently horrible.


Maybe not inherently. But they most certainly are WHILE they are betraying someone.


----------



## Hope12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> Think about it though. Once someone crosses the line and lies and betrays the people they supposedly love the most, how can you guarantee they're ever telling the truth again? You can take a leap of faith and trust them but you can't guarantee anything.


Think about it further. Were you able to guarantee anything before they crossed that line? Should you choose not to R, and move on, can you guarantee anything in the next relationship? You take a leap of faith in every relationship.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> WS's don't have the right of anger. Shame, remorse, humiliation, sadness...those are emotions they're entitled to but anger? No.


C'mon Kevin, emotions are not a privilege that can be granted by those who deem themselves superior to those they deem to be inferior. Emotions are what an individuals feels and feelings are involuntary. However, we are all responsible for how we respond to our emotions. 

I would say that the single most important factor in whether or not a desired reconciliation can succeed would be honesty. Honesty requires transparency. You can VAR a car, place cameras throughout your home, hire a PI, secure passwords to computers, social media accounts, email accounts, cell phones, tablets, etc. But, you cannot read your partner's mind. 

You may be able to successfully keep your fWS from expressing their emotions by using threats or by attempting to shame them when they voice their feelings, but you will never be able to prevent them from actually feeling their emotions. When either spouse feels the need to suppress their emotions, in order to keep the hope for reconciliation alive, the opportunity for honest and healthy dialogue is lost. I don't see how a genuine R can take place when complete transparency is not allowed. Complete transparency is preached on TAM every day as a requirement for R, yet telling a fWS that they aren't entitled to be angry may not allow for transparency if your fWS is angry. I hope I'm making sense. 

I'm a reconciled fWS, who was very angry after D-Day. And, I was right here on TAM posting about it every step of the way. B1 was told, many times, to kick me to the curb. The problem was, he didn't want to kick me to the curb, and he knew _exactly_ why I was angry. I was told, by the TAMers, what I had say, how I was supposed to feel, and what I was supposed to be doing. Oh, and I was also told that I had to be totally transparent, too. I finally asked, "Do you want me to say what you want to hear, or do you want me to be totally transparent, because I can't do both?" B1 and I wisely opted for total transparency. He met me where I was, at the time, and I did the same for him. We worked through all of our emotions honestly, humbly, compassionately, and most of all, together. 

You can neither grant nor deny another human being the right to feel an emotion. You can attempt to deny them the opportunity to express their emotions, but in the end, you are denying yourself the opportunity for open, honest, healthy communication, which is the very foundation from which a successful R is built. 

I picked your post to quote because I know that you're leaning heavily towards reconciliation and I wanted to share with you what worked for B1 and me. I wish you, your wife, and your family all the best.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Cheaters have wronged _(This statement is 100% correct) _but they haven't been wronged unless your spouse was also cheating._ (This statement may or may not be correct. There are many, many ways to wrong your spouse.) _


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Horrible horrible people. Their first step to recovery is admitting what kind of person they are. I said they're not entitle to feel angry and they're not. The person, or people, they betrayed deserve to be angry. Cheaters are filth. Scum.


I thought that you were leaning towards reconciliation.  After reading this comment, I don't understand why you would want to.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> C'mon Kevin, emotions are not a privilege that can be granted by those who deem themselves superior to those they deem to be inferior. Emotions are what an individuals feels and feelings are involuntary. However, we are all responsible for how we respond to our emotions.
> 
> I would say that the single most important factor in whether or not a desired reconciliation can succeed would be honesty. Honesty requires transparency. You can VAR a car, place cameras throughout your home, hire a PI, secure passwords to computers, social media accounts, email accounts, cell phones, tablets, etc. But, you cannot read your partner's mind.
> 
> ...


I've never suggested anything other than total transparency. WS's also forfeit their right to privacy. Especially since they used that right to deceive the person they swore to be faithful to.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> I thought that you were leaning towards reconciliation.  After reading this comment, I don't understand why you would want to.


We're doing very well actually because she admitted that she is a bad person and asked me to help her be a better person. Cheaters are bad people whether they want to admit it or not. The only way to true redemption is to admit it.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

unsureone said:


> https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/anger-dealing-with-betrayal
> 
> I found this link and it felt like I wrote it myself as I was reading it. Figured I would share it.


Many of us aren't wired to handle being betrayed and some who can't handle it try to and it doesn't work out. In the end it's a learning experience. If you cheat on someone then there's very realistic possibility that you've ended the marriage and there's nothing that can be done to stop it. Even if it takes a few years finally dissolve.


----------



## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> We're doing very well actually because she admitted that she is a bad person and asked me to help her be a better person. Cheaters are bad people whether they want to admit it or not. The only way to true redemption is to admit it.



That's pretty black and white Kev. 

If it is true that she is a bad person, is there any hope? My take is that cheaters did a bad thing. But they are still people and all people have worth. The question is, will she do bad again?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Acoa said:


> That's pretty black and white Kev.
> 
> If it is true that she is a bad person, is there any hope? My take is that cheaters did a bad thing. But they are still people and all people have worth. The question is, will she do bad again?


I didn't say that they have no worth.  It's the same as it is with drug or alcohol addicts. They have no hope at recovering until they admit they're addicts. Cheaters have to admit they're bad people. When my wife did that it was during an MC session and I can tell that she was actually admitting that to herself as much as she was admitting it to me. She cried for at least two full minutes after that admission. She had been in denial. Before she said she was a good and honorable person that had done a horrible thing. She finally came to the realization that good and honorable people don't commit that level of betrayal. She is a bad person. Can she be redeemed and become a good person? Yes. She took a big step toward that process by admitting what she is.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> We're doing very well actually because she admitted that she is a bad person and asked me to help her be a better person. Cheaters are bad people whether they want to admit it or not. The only way to true redemption is to admit it.


Oh, okay. Well, good luck with that. She gets you, but you get stuck with having to help fix a bad person. Good deal for her, I suppose, but I don't see what's in it for you. I, personally, would not have chosen to reconcile with a bad person, nor would my husband. Good thing for B1 and me that neither of us thought we were married to a bad person. Don't know why anyone would knowingly choose a BP going in to a relationship. 

And, I didn't forfeit my right to privacy. When I realized the depth of my husband's love for me, sharing everything with him became a privilege, a choice that I was more than happy to make. B1 and I *both* share total transparency with one another. Just as no one can have authority over another's feelings, no one can have authority over another's privacy. If honesty, (including honesty about being angry, if that's the case) and transparency (surrendering privacy) is not given freely, then one would most likely be in a false R.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> Oh, okay. Well, good luck with that. She gets you, but you get stuck with having to help fix a bad person. Good deal for her, I suppose, but I don't see what's in it for you. I, personally, would not have chosen to reconcile with a bad person, nor would my husband. Good thing for B1 and me that neither of us thought we were married to a bad person. Don't know why anyone would knowingly choose a BP going in to a relationship.
> 
> And, I didn't forfeit my right to privacy. When I realized the depth of my husband's love for me, sharing everything with him became a privilege, a choice that I was more than happy to make. B1 and I *both* share total transparency with one another. Just as no one can have authority over another's feelings, no one can have authority over another's privacy. If honesty, (including honesty about being angry, if that's the case) and transparency (surrendering privacy) is not given freely, then one would most likely be in a false R.


If that all works for you then more power to you. Sweep it all under the rug and move on. If I remember your posts, and I do, you said he's doing the things you need him to do so you won't cheat again. Wow. Ok. If he's willing to live under those rules then you really have the upper hand. If you're both happy then it's all good. We all have different approaches to these things. Bad people are redeemable but if they won't come to terms with what they are then that redemption is doomed to fail in the long run. Same as it is for addicts. Every type of 12 step programs involves you admitting what you are as the very first step. Even the MC's will tell you that one.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> If that all works for you then more power to you. Sweep it all under the rug and move on. If I remember your posts, and I do, you said he's doing the things you need him to do so you won't cheat again. Wow. Ok. If he's willing to live under those rules then you really have the upper hand. If you're both happy then it's all good. We all have different approaches to these things. Bad people are redeemable but if they won't come to terms with what they are then that redemption is doomed to fail in the long run. Same as it is for addicts. Every type of 12 step programs involves you admitting what you are as the very first step. Even the MC's will tell you that one.


Yep, in the 3,710 posts between us, and 895 pages of dialogue, stretched over our 4 threads, combined, posted over a 32 month period of time, we swept it ALL right under the rug. 

I've _never_ said that he's doing the things I need him to do so that I won't cheat again. I have frequently said that he's become everything I could have ever hoped for in a husband, and so much more. And, that's true. But, I think that the changes he has made since D-Day would have served him well whether he had reconciled with me or not. I think that the best possible outcome in R would be for both partners to strive to become the best possible individuals they can be. And, if they both do that, then choose to come back together, again, in a new relationship, their chances of a happy reconciliation are quite high. B1 and I have both worked together to create a happier, healthier union than we ever had in our nearly 3 decades, together, prior to my A. Despite a still very challenging life, (which has nothing to do with my infidelity) we're extrememy happy, together, now. I can assure you that we didn't get there by rug sweeping. 

In the short amount of time you've been on TAM, I seriously doubt that you have read more than a few of my posts. And, it's very easy to pick, choose, and rearrange context to fit your pre-conceived notions and ideals. I suspect that it's also very easy to be swayed by a TAMer or two with a pm here or there!


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> Yep, in the 3,710 posts between us, and 895 pages of dialogue, stretched over our 4 threads, combined, posted over a 32 month period of time, we swept it ALL right under the rug.
> 
> I've _never_ said that he's doing the things I need him to do so that I won't cheat again. I have frequently said that he's become everything I could have ever hoped for in a husband, and so much more. And, that's true. But, I think that the changes he has made since D-Day would have served him well whether he had reconciled with me or not. I think that the best possible outcome in R would be for both partners to strive to become the best possible individuals they can be. And, if they both do that, then choose to come back together, again, in a new relationship, their chances of a happy reconciliation are quite high. B1 and I have both worked together to create a happier, healthier union than we ever had in our nearly 3 decades, together, prior to my A. Despite a still very challenging life, (which has nothing to do with my infidelity) we're extrememy happy, together, now. I can assure you that we didn't get there by rug sweeping.
> 
> In the short amount of time you've been on TAM, I seriously doubt that you have read more than a few of my posts. And, it's very easy to pick, choose, and rearrange context to fit your pre-conceived notions and ideals. I suspect that it's also very easy to be swayed by a TAMer or two with a pm here or there!


I actually read all your posts. Some others said I should so I did. I really think you're still in denial and I think he's letting you off the hook. It's not my relationship so I don't care. If it works for you that's great. You even responde to me before and said you're a person of integrity. You're kidding, right? You also said you're religious. If so then you broke a vow you made to God in a church. Pretty serious stuff there. Anyway, be happy, have a good life.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Couple of thoughts.

- KingwoodKev's wife is not EI.
- EI's husband is not KingwoodKev.
- All relationships are unique.
- Verbal communication on a forum leaves a lot of room to judge and feel judged.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> I actually read all your posts. Some others said I should so I did.


Keep reading.



KingwoodKev said:


> I really think you're still in denial and I think he's letting you off the hook. It's not my relationship so I don't care. If it works for you that's great. You even responde to me before and said you're a person of integrity. You're kidding, right? You also said you're religious. If so then you broke a vow you made to God in a church. Pretty serious stuff there. Anyway, be happy, have a good life.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> I actually read all your posts. Some others said I should so I did. I really think you're still in denial and I think he's letting you off the hook. It's not my relationship so I don't care. If it works for you that's great. You even responde to me before and said you're a person of integrity. You're kidding, right? You also said you're religious. If so then you broke a vow you made to God in a church. Pretty serious stuff there. Anyway, be happy, have a good life.


EI has done some pretty hard lifting. they did not rug sweep
she is the one here that has always gave me hope.
B1 has not gave her a pass after R was under way he started working on his issues in the marriage to.

sometimes I find my self so envious of EI because I wish my WW would do as good as her in terms of R.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Keep reading.


I read them all. I've gotten a lot of PM's from people not enamored by the celebrity couple of CWI. I've seen a lot of butt kissing going on but I don't roll that way. The PM'ers did warn me to be careful of questioning them or I'd get gang-attacked by their fans. That appears to be somewhat true. Just know that other posters here who are regulars aren't as big of fans of theirs as everyone else pretends to be.

She said she is a person of integrity. Do you really agree? She also said she wouldn't cheat again because B1 is doing the things he needs to do as a husband. That leaves it open to if he doesn't do those things then all bets are off and cheating is back on the table. I didn't write any of these things. She did. I just read them as I was advised to do.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> I read them all. I've gotten a lot of PM's from people not enamored by the celebrity couple of CWI.


LOL. I'm sure.



KingwoodKev said:


> I've seen a lot of butt kissing going on but I don't roll that way. The PM'ers did warn me to be careful of questioning them or I'd get gang-attacked by their fans. That appears to be somewhat true.


:::sigh:::

If you say so...



KingwoodKev said:


> Just know that other posters here who are regulars aren't as big of fans of theirs as everyone else pretends to be.


Oh no. Say it isn't so.

Oh well. I'll try to come to terms w/ my utter shock and disappointment.



KingwoodKev said:


> She said she is a person of integrity. Do you really agree? She also said she wouldn't cheat again because B1 is doing the things he needs to do as a husband. That leaves it open to if he doesn't do those things then all bets are off and cheating is back on the table. I didn't write any of these things. She did. I just read them as I was advised to do.


Quoting from another post in another thread...

"We are what we do _repeatedly_. I have lied before, and yet I am not a liar. I have stolen before, and yet I am not a thief. I suspect that the same could be said for everyone here.

Actually, make that _everyone *everywhere*_."


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Quoting from another post in another thread...
> 
> "We are what we do _repeatedly_. I have lied before, and yet I am not a liar. I have stolen before, and yet I am not a thief. I suspect that the same could be said for everyone here.
> 
> Actually, make that _everyone *everywhere*_."


So then someone can cheat but they're not a cheater? I wonder what the BS's here would think of that?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> So then someone can cheat but they're not a cheater? I wonder what the BS's here would think of that?


Honestly, you shouldn't care about what _any_ BS's other than yourself think about that. And yes, that includes me.

Either way, it would seem that you're allowing yourself to be unduly influenced by some of what is being sent to you via PM. And you know, I just have to wonder... _if the opinions being shared w/ you via PM are so worthy of consideration, *why are they not being posted on the open forums for all to see?*_

Is your wife _still_ a cheater? Is she a thoroughly contemptible person beyond any hope of redemption? Is she absolute, utter garbage -- completely undeserving of all but the barest scraps of compassion, consideration, or affection that one could be bothered to throw her way? *If you truly think so, then WHY would you want to reconcile w/ her?!?*


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> _if the opinions being shared w/ you via PM are so worthy of consideration, *why are they not being posted on the open forums for all to see?*_


Those opinions are not being posted for the exact reason they warned me not to disagree with her. They said that I'd get gang attacked by her fans. Like you.


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

arbitrator said:


> Larry: I'd say that over the course of time, that if the BS has not summarily forgiven the WS, then he holds equal, but separate blame in the process.


Look, I'm not anti-R. But I'm sure not going to get down on a man or woman who is incapable of forgiving. Yes, they eventually should forgive even if they don't reconcile for their own mental health. Not being able to do that isn't a defect in my mind though.



arbitrator said:


> Forgiving should be always be a mandatory prerequisite in moving on.


I disagree. You don't have to do either in the case of infidelity, and not doing so isn't a character flaw.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

> Is your wife _still_ a cheater? Is she a thoroughly contemptible person beyond any hope of redemption? Is she absolute, utter garbage -- completely undeserving of all but the barest scraps of compassion, consideration, or affection that one could be bothered to throw her way? *If you truly think so, then WHY would you want to reconcile w/ her?!?*


She is a cheater but isn't currently cheating. At least that is what I believe. None of us ever really know. It's a leap of faith. One I'm willing to take again because I think she's worth it. She humbled herself and took full ownership for her actions. Some others don't. That's cool. Everyone is different. I wish everyone well. All opinions are valid and nobody deserves to be ganged up on because they've dared question a saint who would never cheat. Oh wait...


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> Those opinions are not being posted for the exact reason they warned me not to disagree with her. They said that I'd get gang attacked by her fans. Like you.


Kev, I'm not attacking you at all. I'm just offering you a different, less vitriolic perspective on things. And you know what...? I'll afford you -- or anyone else, for that matter -- the opportunity to do the same for me.

So go ahead -- list out everything that could give someone the impression that B1 and EI simply rugswept her affair. I promise to carefully read everything that you have to say, and to give it all due consideration.

In the meantime, I'd like for you to consider that much of what is being sent to you in PMs is being sent by those who are -- whether they'll admit it or not -- (a) opposed to and/or (b) incapable of reconciliation themselves.

_And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong w/ that._ Lots of folks couldn't or wouldn't choose to reconcile following their spouse's affair, and that's _easily_ doubly true in the case of _*physical*_ affairs. But for someone to pretend that that isn't the case and to then turn around and offer advice based on that obvious truth is pretty hypocritical.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> She is a cheater but isn't currently cheating. At least that is what I believe. None of us ever really know. It's a leap of faith. One I'm willing to take again because I think she's worth it. She humbled herself and took full ownership for her actions. Some others don't. That's cool. Everyone is different. I wish everyone well. All opinions are valid and nobody deserves to be ganged up on because they've dared question a saint who would never cheat. Oh wait...


So she'll _always_ be a cheater in your eyes?

And I'm _hardly_ a "gang".


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> So she'll _always_ be a cheater in your eyes?
> 
> And I'm _hardly_ a "gang".


There have already been others here and via PM. There will be more I'm sure tomorrow when they see. I can't say I wasn't warned. I've committed a forum sin. Some people are unquestionable. Will my wife always be a cheater in my eyes? No. I'm going to re-take that leap of faith. Will she always be a cheater? Good question. Answer me this. Is a recovered alcoholic always an alcoholic?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> There have already been others here and via PM. There will be more I'm sure tomorrow when they see. I can't say I wasn't warned. I've committed a forum sin. Some people are unquestionable. Will my wife always be a cheater in my eyes? No. I'm going to re-take that leap of faith. *Will she always be a cheater? Good question. Answer me this. Is a recovered alcoholic always an alcoholic?*


Apples and tangelos.

And if that's your metric for determining whether or not she'll always be a cheater, I'd point out that every single one of us has been similarly afflicted where PEA chemicals are concerned.

So the question isn't whether or not your wife is still addicted to cheating, per se -- it's whether or not (a) she's still "addicted" to OM and (b) whether or not you can ever again regain your status as her "drug" of choice.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Yes it's all a big leap of faith. An even bigger one than the original leap of faith because the second time you know they're capable of cheating. Is it worth the risk? To most it isn't. Cheating ends in D far more often than it ends in R. To me it's worth the risk. I did soul searching and feel an R with her is better than something new with someone else.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Kev
> Horrible horrible people. Their first step to recovery is admitting what kind of person they are. I said they're not entitle to feel angry and they're not. The person, or people, they betrayed deserve to be angry. Cheaters are filth. Scum.
> 
> I never said forever. For me it was two years. If during that time she had gotten angry at us then there would have been no chance at R. Cheaters don't have that right. They forfeited it. Only if they truly humble themselves and admit what they are do they have any hope at real redemption. If they get angry it means they still think they have some kind of moral high ground and have been offended.


Ok Kev, I can see that you are really disgusted with cheaters. I agree, the act of betrayal is horrible, filthy, and scum. The pain of betrayal has given you a need to vent and express your total hatred of infidelity and that is quite normal for some. I am a BS also so I know the deep pain that ravishes the emotions.

Kev, if you have read my posts on your threads you know that I think you have a good chance of R and your chances are far better than many on TAM IMO. You also know that I listed the things that you posted that indicate that what your wife has done and what you ever done are very positive. I cannot find where I posted that and I was told that you probably deleted one or more of your threads. Also, on one of your latest threads I stated that posters should respect your statements reflecting the kinds of post that you did not want. Your situation is very interesting to me because you have a good chance of having a successful R (IMO). Helping people and seeing people have a successful R is one of the motivating factors as to why I come to this TAM site. There are people here at TAM that I think do not have a chance at a successful long-term R but I think that you are one of a very few that do have a chance.

From what you have written your wife‘s actions so far are OUTSTANDING and she has endured for two years without being allowed into the home and she has a child that will not associate with her. Those are just a few that I remember that tells me that your wife has taken some very harsh consequences without being thrown off track. Yes those actions that your wife did were horrible, filthy, and scum. However, those outstanding actions also told me that your wife does not have DNA that makes her horrible, filthy, and scum. Your wife made a decision from her own free will to degrade herself and damage herself and her family for a short time but she stills has the DNA of a woman of worth and integrity Just like you have that integrity and worthy DNA although we do not know what sins you have committed.

Kev, go ahead and vent, kick the bed, punch the pillows, spit on images that are triggers, scream, cuss at adultery movies, run if you are a runner, walk if you are a walker until your Nike shoes scream for you to stop, and anything else that does not involve attacking people. I fully understand that.

After you vent I suggest that you keep your eye and mind on the positive and eliminate the negative. I read where your anger towards your wife is starting to turn to empathy because of the pain you see her in. That is real progress my friend but projecting your pain on other people personally is a huge step backwards.* You, your children, and your wife will gain by you having empathy and doing the things that help you heal. Avoid the negatives.*


----------



## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> She had been in denial. Before she said she was a good and honorable person that had done a horrible thing. She finally came to the realization that good and honorable people don't commit that level of betrayal. She is a bad person. Can she be redeemed and become a good person? Yes. She took a big step toward that process by admitting what she is.



I agree that good and honorable people don't cheat on spouses.

But your label of your WW as a "bad person" because she cheated isn't healthy if your goal is to R. If you want to D, doesn't really matter. 

Calling someone a bad person implies that nothing they do is good. That they must change everything about themselves. That's not realistic. 

My ex did plenty of good things. She really helped a lot of people. Unfortunately she has a problem with keeping her legs shut and honesty. She likes the thrill, the rush of the forbidden and the first kiss. It's a part of herself that she doesn't like, but has little control over. Rather than be honest during therapy she tries to avoid embarrassment and covers up those things. Which off course means she'll keep repeating. That's why she is an ex.

Maybe if she had some self realization like your WW seems to have R would be possible. But your good guy bad woman label is going cause trouble. The "good" person is going to feel entitled to level the playing field and the "bad" person is going to have high incentive to cover up additional wrongs. 

Wouldn't it be better to treat it more like alcoholism? She has a problem, she needs help. And she always will. That help starts with self realization, but needs to progress. 

The difference being, if the BS demands a boundary, that is controling. If the BS suggests a boundary and the WS accepts it because they know it will help prevent a relapse, that's a partnership.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Acoa said:


> I agree that good and honorable people don't cheat on spouses.
> 
> But your label of your WW as a "bad person" because she cheated isn't healthy if your goal is to R. If you want to D, doesn't really matter.
> 
> ...


That self-realization is key. If you don't have that then R is doomed. Might last a week, a month, maybe 2-5 years but it'll fail in the end because the person wouldn't admit who they are even to themselves. That's why every program from drug and alcohol addiction requires the person to admit what they are before anything else can commence. Admitting they're a bad person doesn't mean that nothing they do is good. The world isn't black and white. Bad people do good things. Good people do bad things. Lying, cheating, and betraying a spouse AND their own children is a pretty tell-tale sign of a bad person. I do follow that up with are they redeemable? Of course. Everyone is redeemable. They can't redeem themselves, however, if they are in denial about what they are. You should see the change in my wife since she came to that realization. It's like that formed a solid base on which we can go forward from. Without that solid base redemption will crumble.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Acoa said:


> That's pretty black and white Kev.
> 
> If it is true that she is a bad person, is there any hope? My take is that cheaters did a bad thing. But they are still people and all people have worth. *The question is, will she do bad again*?


Will Kev's wife? Chances IMO are good. Why? Because Kev was plan B. ONLY after the affair was blown up and the OM dumped her did she want Kev back. 

Otherwise she already stated she would have left Kev for the OM if OM divorced and wanted her to.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> You can neither grant nor deny another human being the right to feel an emotion.


True. People can feel whatever emotions they want. But sometimes someone feeling a certain emotion is just ridiculous.

Like someone who stabs someone else because they live a better life. That person is angry at their victim, and they have a right to feel how they want.

Doesn't mean that anyone else should recognize their anger as legitimate.


----------



## Augusto (Aug 14, 2013)

you don't need a link....you need a weight room


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> I've _never_ said that he's doing the things I need him to do so that I won't cheat again. I have frequently said that he's become everything I could have ever hoped for in a husband, and so much more.


Look, you are B1 are a reconciliation success story. That is what the both of you wanted, and I'm happy for your family because of that.

But the problem with a statement such as the above, is that I think a lot of us may see that as successful emotional extortion.
Not because B1 decided that he wants you, but because, in addition to that statement, it has been said by many others on this site that someone needs to attend to the WS's needs so there isn't a repeat occurrence. That coupled with the fact that you said that you didn't regret your affair, and when describing your story you did blame him.
But hey, the only one that has to be ok with that is B1.

If I had stayed with my wife and I was making the effort to do everything I could for the sake of my family, and she said that, I just don't know what I'd think. I'd probably think, well, she got what she wanted and probably thinks the affair was a good thing in that regard.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Look, you are B1 are a reconciliation success story. That is what the both of you wanted, and I'm happy for your family because of that.
> 
> But the problem with a statement such as the above, is that I think a lot of us may see that as successful emotional extortion.
> Not because B1 decided that he wants you, but because, in addition to that statement, it has been said by many others on this site that someone needs to attend to the WS's needs so there isn't a repeat occurrence. That coupled with the fact that you said that you didn't regret your affair, and when describing your story you did blame him.
> ...


Sooo... you'd take issue w/ the fact that B1 owned up to his sh*t? And let's not forget that B1 has essentially vetted EI's recollection of events at pretty much every turn.

How would you have suggested that B1 approach the reconciliation of his marriage?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Sooo... you'd take issue w/ the fact that B1 owned up to his sh*t? And let's not forget that B1 has essentially vetted EI's recollection of events at pretty much every turn.
> 
> How would you have suggested that B1 approach the reconciliation of his marriage?


Reconcile with a three time cheater? Three times that we know. Honestly, would you?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Sooo... you'd take issue w/ the fact that B1 owned up to his sh*t?


No, I take issue with blaming infidelity on that "sh*t".




> And let's not forget that B1 has essentially vetted EI's recollection of events at pretty much every turn.


Well he became the husband she wanted him to be. So not sure what there really was to vet unless during the time he changed for her she was still cheating.



> How would you have suggested that B1 approach the reconciliation of his marriage?


Don't know. That's up to him. What they did worked for them. How he handled it worked for him where someone else just couldn't do it given what happened. Everyone is different.

I was commenting on the statement made and how OTHERS might take that statement. If B1 didn't take it that way, that is his choice and it worked for him.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Reconcile with a three time cheater? Three times that we know. Honestly, would you?


If you want to be taken seriously around here, then perhaps you should get your facts straight. I had one affair, with one man. It initially lasted 2 months, before D-Day #1. My husband and I attempted reconciliation for approximately 3 months. At that point, I re-established contact with the xAP and took the affair underground. It lasted another 10 months before D-Day # 2.

I have never tried to pretty it up or make my A out to be a good thing or to imply that it was honorable behavior on my part. I have always clearly stated that I was at the lowest point in my life when I had the A. But, you don't throw out phrases like "three time cheater" when that is absolutely incorrect and not get called out on it. 

Isn't your wife the WS who was doing your friend for over a year and was disappointed when she found out that the AP had no intentions of leaving his wife for her? At least I had the decency and good sense to choose a single AP. In fact, with that in mind, I completely understand why you have such harsh words for cheaters. But, that was your cheater.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> If you want to be taken seriously around here, then perhaps you should get your facts straight. I had one affair, with one man. It initially lasted 2 months, before D-Day #1. My husband and I attempted reconciliation for approximately 3 months. At that point, I re-established contact with the xAP and took the affair underground. It lasted another 10 months before D-Day # 2.
> 
> I have never tried to pretty it up or make my A out to be a good thing or to imply that it was honorable behavior on my part. I have always clearly stated that I was at the lowest point in my life when I had the A. But, you don't throw out phrases like "three time cheater" when that is absolutely incorrect and not get called out on it.
> 
> Isn't your wife the WS who was doing your friend for over a year and was disappointed when she found out that the AP had no intentions of leaving his wife for her? At least I had the decency and good sense to choose a single AP. In fact, with that in mind, I completely understand why you have such harsh words for cheaters. But, that was your cheater.



From your husband's first thread:



> I knew there was a 3mo affair last year in Feb through April and we dealt with that last year. I thought there was NC since. Boy was I wrong.


Once.



> I found out a few weeks ago they were talking again (via phone records again)and she said that they started talking again a few months ago and that was it. Then she admitted to dinner and lunch a few times...again we dealt with it, she established NC and has been NC since. I have FB passwords, phone records, she has opened everything up to me.


Twice.



> She posted on here about her situation and got blasted, and got angry but overall it helped her. Now, as of yesterday, she has confessed that the affair really picked back up in July last year and lasted until a few weeks ago.


Three strikes. You're out.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> True. People can feel whatever emotions they want. But sometimes someone feeling a certain emotion is just ridiculous.
> 
> Like someone who stabs someone else because they live a better life. That person is angry at their victim, and they have a right to feel how they want.
> 
> Doesn't mean that anyone else should recognize their anger as legitimate.


People don't feel what they want to feel. They feel what they feel. Emotions are involuntary. Actions are voluntary. Your statement "But sometimes someone feeling a certain emotion is just ridiculous" serves what purpose? If someone feels an emotion, and you care about that someone, you need to know what they are feeling so that you can make a choice as to how you wish to deal with it. Damn straight I was angry after D-Day. I simply could not wrap my brain around why B1 wanted to save our marriage, at that point, after all of the time and effort I had put in, with no cooperation from him, trying to save it, for several years, prior to the start of my A. If he was so willing and able to love me, then, I did not understand why he could not have loved me before. You know, when I was the one crying myself to sleep every night, by myself, on the couch.

As you have most likely read, B1 and I have worked through all of those issues, dissecting them, and ourselves, inside and out...... while we were so busy rug sweeping. 

No one gets to choose whether someone's feelings are legitimate or not. Do you realize how foolish and desperate it makes you look when you suggest that you or anyone else is entitled to legitimize or discredit the feelings of anyone other than yourself?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> People don't feel what they want to feel. They feel what they feel. Emotions are involuntary. Actions are voluntary. Your statement "But sometimes someone feeling a certain emotion is just ridiculous" serves what purpose? If someone feels an emotion, and you care about that someone, you need to know what they are feeling so that you can make a choice as to how you wish to deal with it. Damn straight I was angry after D-Day. I simply could not wrap my brain around why B1 wanted to save our marriage, at that point, after all of the time and effort I had put in, with no cooperation from him, trying to save it, for several years, prior to the start of my A. If he was so willing and able to love me, then, I did not understand why he could not have loved me before. You know, when I was the one crying myself to sleep every night, by myself, on the couch.
> 
> As you have most likely read, B1 and I have worked through all of those issues, dissecting them, and ourselves, inside and out...... while we were so busy rug sweeping.
> 
> No one gets to choose whether someone's feelings are legitimate or not. Do you realize how foolish and desperate it makes you look when you suggest that you or anyone else is entitled to legitimize or discredit the feelings of anyone other than yourself?



Such a high horse for an admitted long term cheater. Oh well. Whatever works for you. You guys have a happy Valentine's Day.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Sorry, but when someone points the finger at their spouse for their cheating, has told this forum that they don't regret the affair, and in the end got their spouse to do what they wanted....and then want us to know how angry they were? Sorry, not moved. You can call it foolish all you want. I imagine if I had posted that, I'd find myself in another time out.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

vellocet said:


> Sorry, but when someone points the finger at their spouse for their cheating, has told this forum that they don't regret the affair, and in the end got their spouse to do what they wanted....and then want us to know how angry they were? Sorry, not moved. You can call it foolish all you want. I imagine if I had posted that, I'd find myself in another time out.


Good insight. I hope they're happy, I really do but if she thinks I'll stroke her ego like so many of her fawning fans here then she's out of luck.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> From your husband's first thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the second and third is really just one.
It was one affair with 2 DDays and TT


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

convert said:


> the second and third is really just one.
> It was one affair with 2 DDays and TT


But all the while happening when they were supposed to be working on it at that point. So I see Kev's point.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> From your husband's first thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, I think what you're referring to is trickle truth. I came to TAM 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day for that very reason. He wanted to know all of the details. Considering that neither of us had made the decision to attempt R, at that point, I genuinely didn't know if knowing all of the graphic details would be in his best interest. It was actually my concern for his psychological well-being that compelled me to make my first post on TAM. B1 had intentionally driven a huge wedge between us, prior to the start of my affair. After D-Day # 1, he barely blinked, so after D-Day, # 2, I was completely unprepared for the outpouring of emotions that he was experiencing. 

He and I have shared all of this on TAM, repeatedly. But, again, I had one affair, with one man, who was single, and certainly not a friend of B1 or our family. But, that's some nice tossing of that word salad you got there. 

And, no, I'm not out.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Heavy bag.... Seriously helps...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Heavy bag.... Seriously helps...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It helps a BS, that's for sure. I put a lot of that anger to productive use back in the day.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Good insight. I hope they're happy, I really do but if she thinks I'll stroke her ego like so many of her fawning fans here then she's out of luck.


I'm her friend, not a fawning fan. My avatar is an accurate representation. I am fvcking hard about infidelity and seldom pull my punches. She is still friends with me despite my unreserved hatred for infidelity.

She is a good egg. Not perfect by any stretch, just a woman committed to change and redemption. Her and B1 are welcome at my table any time.

Your vitriol is very understandable but needs worked out with your WW. Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Sorry, but when someone points the finger at their spouse for their cheating, has told this forum that they don't regret the affair, and in the end got their spouse to do what they wanted....and then want us to know how angry they were? Sorry, not moved. You can call it foolish all you want. I imagine if I had posted that, I'gd find myself in another time out.


I have never said that I don't regret my affair. In fact, I have gone to great lengths in sharing very personal details throughout our journey of reconciliation. I have very openly shared my feelings of regret, feelings of self-loathing, and my inability to forgive myself as I was working through all of those emotions. In the end, my spouse did exactly what HE wanted to do, what he chose to do. Has that been a blessing for me? Absolutely, it has! And, I have said it over and over, again, on TAM, and most importantly to B1, how very blessed I am that he chose to love me the most, when I was the least deserving of his love. But, back to anger, yes, I was angry, and justifiably so. B1 was also angry, and justifiably so. We have worked through all of that. I truly struggle to understand why that bothers you so much. 

What exactly am I supposed to be in time out for? For being honest, or for not taking cheap shots, without firing back in self-defense?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> I have never said that I don't regret my affair.


I specifically remember reading that you didn't regret it. I'm sure I can't find it, but I remember it. And in any event, you have deleted a lot of your threads, so perhaps it isn't even there any longer.
So I highly doubt I'll be able to produce the quote. So I'll have to digress.



> What exactly am I supposed to be in time out for? For being honest, or *for not taking cheap shots*, without firing back in self-defense?


Sorry, I just must be "foolish and desperate" You do veil your insults well, I'll give you that.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Easy Kev, easy. Would like to see you stick around.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

vellocet said:


> Easy Kev, easy. Would like to see you stick around.


I'm just repeating what they themselves already posted. Cheated, caught, continued cheating, caught, continued cheating, caught. That's all straight off B1's first thread.


----------



## thankyouforsharing (Mar 21, 2014)

Long time lurker here.. was a BS, 6 years post DD. FWIW, I resonate with EI and B1 story, by all means, I am not their cheerleading squad. Just that I found similarities in their R story. 

I understand what she meant when she said for healthy R to happen, both needs to address the A, acknowledge the hurt it caused. *To make the marriage stronger and more fulfilling than merely surviving post A, though, requires the problems pre A to be addressed as well.* 

I am sure each of us have problems in our marriage that if we are willing to own our parts and improve them, it will nurture a marriage regardless of the presence of A. I guess I don't understand why addressing this issue with an A is viewed differently. 

That was what happened during my R too. We were engaged when my now spouse had an EA. I sensed the AP had an intention of being more than friends right from the very beginning. But he didn't think that way. 

We were in long distance relationship for the most part (5+ years dating). Before this incident, he had proven to be trustworthy even when several women tried to pursue him. We started our relationship with him being somewhat my mentor before he became my lover. I had always seen him that way. It caused the relationship to be tilted, in that I relied on him a lot and I didn't behave as equal partner that also listened and encouraged him. In my mind, he was a very mature, solid, reliable and self sufficient that I thought he didn't need encouragement. Faulty way of thinking, I know, but it didn't register to me then. 

When the EA took place, we were grad students, in long distance relationship. I was burned out. He was as well. I was unavailable to converse, I didn't even knew what his project was. I discovered their long emails and her particular email that was so affectionate to him. It hurt badly. I was ready to walk away. Then he decided to work on us and went NC with her. 

During the recovery, he never blamed me. But, as strange as it sound, the AP's affectionate email hit me like a ton of brick. I realized, I never provided him that kind of affection. He is an introvert, so he rarely told me upfront what his needs were. He never told me that and bottled his emotions. I only knew he craved that attention from me by reading his email to his buddies. 

He did everything I asked. He was patient helping me to rebuild my trust. We did went through a break of NC like EI and B1 had experienced. So I understand that it does take time for that feeling of attachment between WS and AP to wear off. After DD2, he has proven himself to be trustworthy. I rarely check on his emails now. Everytime I did, he is trustworthy. 

I did my work too. He didn't asked or demanded. I worked on being more affectionate and more supportive because I know he needs that from me despite him never making a big fuss of it. 

Did I "reward" him for his A? No. I am doing it for us to have a better and more fulfilling relationship. Is our relationship post A better? By far it is. It took us a long time, a lot of tears, and effort to get there.

Would I choose other way to realize my shortcoming without having to go through this painful A? Yes. Unfortunately, I was so oblivious. I wished I didn't have to learn the hard way. 

Were I to choose between not having to deal w the A and keep our old relationship and to have our relationship now after the A, I would strangely choose to go through that painful episode to get where we are. 

I hope I do not offend anyone. Apologies if I, unknowingly hurt fellow BS here.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

TYFS, I guess that would be the big difference in your story. You say he didn't blame you.

No offense. You didn't say anything wrong. 

Now put down the pom poms


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> They were separate lies. She split one penis into three separate instances of getting caught, "repenting", and then continuing on.


yes but not 3 DDays.
What Ei did is no worse then what your WW did and actually it was shorter then you WW affair and not with a friend which is double betrayal.
if you have this mind set going into R it will be a struggle for sure
I know I am struggling after 1 year and 9 months


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> But, again, I had one affair, with one man, *who was single, and certainly not a friend of B1 or our family*. But, that's some nice tossing of that word salad you got there.


So this is EI's way of saying she's a higher class of cheater than my wife. Anyone care to chime in?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

convert said:


> yes but not 3 DDays.
> What Ei did is no worse then what your WW did and actually it was shorter then you WW affair and not with a friend which is double betrayal.
> if you have this mind set going into R it will be a struggle for sure
> I know I am struggling after 1 year and 9 months


Well I don't think Kev should want to get back with his W. Just my opinion.

But at least she didn't blame him for her cheating. She put it all on herself.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> I'm just repeating what they themselves already posted. Cheated, caught, continued cheating, caught, continued cheating, caught. That's all straight off B1's first thread.


and you are getting it wrong
caught 2 times with TT 
yes I know some see TT as a new DDay


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> yes but not 3 DDays.
> What Ei did is no worse then what your WW did and actually it was shorter then you WW affair and not with a friend which is double betrayal.
> if you have this mind set going into R it will be a struggle for sure
> I know I am struggling after 1 year and 9 months


The difference is my wife didn't remain prideful. She truly humbled herself and admitted what she is. That's the only way to build a true foundation for redemption and reconciliation.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Well I don't think Kev should want to get back with his W. Just my opinion.
> 
> But at least she didn't blame him for her cheating. She put it all on herself.



I agree with not getting back together.

yes she did take blame after 2 years of being separated she even answered his question that she would of left with OM after DDay if he would of wanted to.
so her taking blame is an attempt to get back together as damage control, still kev was plan B early on maybe not know (I hope)


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EI and B1s situation was far different than yours. I don't condone but understand EI. I understand what made their R work. Your WW blows my mind and I hope the best for you but to take a wonderful marriage and family and blow it out her butt to be a cheap piece for a married shythead?

I am actually far more concerned with your R attempt than theirs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> So this is EI's way of saying she's a higher class of cheater than my wife. Anyone care to chime in?


yes there are certainly different degrees of betrayal

I think I had a bad one, OM 3 of 3 was best man at my wedding and *was* a current friend

I have never shared my complete story on here (To many 2x4) I am sure I would loose some respect from many here.
although there is worse stories then mine


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Easy Kev, easy. Would like to see you stick around.
> 
> 
> KingwoodKev said:
> ...


I would too and the easiest way to stick around here is to recognise that when someone else's story triggers raw emotion that it's smart to back away for a little bit and think about the response before writing it and slamming the "save" button. Come back and comment with control. It's easy for a WS or BS to project their unique situation onto others relationships but that leaves a lot of room for error. I could assume that because I didn't see redeemable qualities in my ex that no WS has redeemable qualities but that would be an illogical assumption. Now if anyone has figured out how to be a fly on and actually see into the lives and minds of other posters then you'll have a pass to this rule.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> The difference is my wife didn't remain prideful. She truly humbled herself and admitted what she is. That's the only way to build a true foundation for redemption and reconciliation.


KingwoodKev, do you think your wife has changed? The reason I ask is that if she's humble then the correct wording will at some point become *what she was* rather than what she is.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Thundarr said:


> I would too and the easiest way to stick around here is to recognise that when someone else's story triggers raw emotion that it's smart to back away for a little bit and think about the response before writing it and slamming the "save" button. Come back and comment with control. It's easy for a WS or BS to project their unique situation onto others relationships but that leaves a lot of room for error. I could assume that because I didn't see redeemable qualities in my ex that no WS has redeemable qualities but that would be an illogical assumption. Now if anyone has figured out how to be a fly on and actually see into the lives and minds of other posters then you'll have a pass to this rule.


Is it smart for a WS to claim she is a better class of cheater than a BS's wife? Surely that crosses some sort of line here.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> yes there are certainly different degrees of betrayal
> 
> I think I had a bad one, OM 3 of 3 was best man at my wedding and *was* a current friend
> 
> ...


Yes but cheaters are cheaters. They're all members of the same club whether they're willing to admit it or not.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

KingwoodKev said:


> Yes but cheaters are cheaters. They're all members of the same club whether they're willing to admit it or not.


*All* cheaters are equally sh!tty, scummy, horrible people.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

altawa said:


> *All* cheaters are equally sh!tty, scummy, horrible people.


I guess it is cool that they don't have to stay that way and many change and become better people. I take nothing away from the damage done. I have seen the worst, death, but I hope that cheaters take the hard road and work to become good folks again.

I've seen it more than once.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I guess it is cool that they don't have to stay that way and many change and become better people. I take nothing away from the damage done. I have seen the worst, death, but I hope that cheaters take the hard road and work to become good folks again.
> 
> I've seen it more than once.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mine is doing just that. She was truly broken. I know it when I see it. She hit rock bottom and admitted, most importantly to herself, that she is a bad person and begged for my help. That is the point when redemption becomes an option. I am now willing to help her. A lot of people, however, fake it. I've learned to tell the difference. Them remaining prideful is a huge tell that they're faking it.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Is it smart for a WS to claim she is a better class of cheater than a BS's wife? Surely that crosses some sort of line here.


Nope. I didn't like that comment.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Thundarr said:


> Nope. I didn't like that comment.


Thank you. That really does mean a lot to me. I was beginning to think the warnings I had received via PM not to question certain posters was true. Nobody likes to be ganged up on.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

convert said:


> yes there are certainly different degrees of betrayal
> 
> I think I had a bad one, OM 3 of 3 was best man at my wedding and *was* a current friend
> 
> ...


I've never has a thread to share my story either. Bits and peices come out here and there but geez it was two decades ago. What's important is what you learned rather than rehashing details of something if you don't need to.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

KingwoodKev said:


> Thank you. That really does mean a lot to me. I was beginning to think the warnings I had received via PM not to question certain posters was true. Nobody likes to be ganged up on.


I am sure it probably was true. Most forums are no different than high school social cliques. There are certain people that can get away with anything. I have seen it on just about every forum I have been on over the years, and there is zero reason to believe this forum is any different.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Thank you. That really does mean a lot to me. I was beginning to think the warnings I had received via PM not to question certain posters was true. Nobody likes to be ganged up on.


It is ok to question but if you take a shot you can expect return fire. I have criticized points of view but I can expect some blowback if I take a hard shot, even if my point is accurate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Is it smart for a WS to claim she is a better class of cheater than a BS's wife? Surely that crosses some sort of line here.


She was not claiming to be a better class of cheater.
just pointing out there are different degrees/levels of cheating (double or even triple betrayal).


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> It is ok to question but if you take a shot you can expect return fire. I have criticized points of view but I can expect some blowback if I take a hard shot, even if my point is accurate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good policy as long as you apply it evenly to _all_ posters. Unless you think it's ok for someone to say they're a better class of cheater than another poster's wife. Do you think that's cool?


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Mine is doing just that. She was truly broken. I know it when I see it. She hit rock bottom and admitted, most importantly to herself, that she is a bad person and begged for my help. That is the point when redemption becomes an option. I am now willing to help her. A lot of people, however, fake it. I've learned to tell the difference. Them *remaining prideful* is a huge tell that they're faking it.


The only pride I see from EI is in her R and her marriage as it stands now and she should be proud


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Look, you are B1 are a reconciliation success story. That is what the both of you wanted, and I'm happy for your family because of that.
> 
> But the problem with a statement such as the above, is that I think a lot of us may see that as successful emotional extortion.
> Not because B1 decided that he wants you, but because, in addition to that statement, it has been said by many others on this site that someone needs to attend to the WS's needs so there isn't a repeat occurrence. That coupled with the fact that you said that you didn't regret your affair, and when describing your story you did blame him.
> ...


Cheating option was on her and she has owned it. That aside, she had undergone years of abuse and neglect, breaking her down into the puddle of crap that thought cheating looked good.

A sexless marriage is abusive in my book. She chose to add more shyt to the dinner already being served up in her marriage and she deeply regrets it as far as I have read.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> She was not claiming to be a better class of cheater.
> just pointing out there are different degrees/levels of cheating (double or even triple betrayal).


Her words: "At least I had the decency and good sense to choose a single AP"

Decency? What's she trying to imply? Why bring that up?

Also: "But, again, I had one affair, with one man, who was single, and certainly not a friend of B1 or our family"

Kind of smug eh? I'm interested if you can support a comment like this.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Good policy as long as you apply it evenly to _all_ posters. Unless you think it's ok for someone to say they're a better class of cheater than another poster's wife. Do you think that's cool?


Sounds like she took a shot at you. Was it return fire?

If she said it out of the blue, totally out of line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Good policy as long as you apply it evenly to _all_ posters. Unless you think it's ok for someone to say they're a better class of cheater than another poster's wife. Do you think that's cool?


that is not what she was saying.
In my case my wife betrayed Me, OM's Wife which she was friends with and my best friend betrayed ME and his wife very two families destroyed similar in your case case as you.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Her words: "At least I had the decency and good sense to choose a single AP"
> 
> Decency? What's she trying to imply? Why bring that up?
> 
> ...


because just her family was effected she did not destroy another family and friendships.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> that is not what she was saying.
> In my case my wife betrayed Me, OM's Wife which she was friends with and my best friend betrayed ME and his wife very two families destroyed similar in your case case as you.


It's exactly what she was saying. The gist of it is "I may be a cheater but at least I'm a more moral cheater than your wife." That is exactly what she was saying.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Sounds like she took a shot at you. Was it return fire?
> 
> If she said it out of the blue, totally out of line.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



The difference, of course, is that I haven't posted cutesy pictures of myself for people to adore and compliment so I can't count on your support in these issues, no?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> because just her family was effected she did not destroy another family and friendships.


Well heck then, she's a saint among sinners. Far better than "those other" cheaters. Right?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Sounds like she took a shot at you. Was it return fire?
> 
> If she said it out of the blue, totally out of line.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


BTW, she actually took a shot at my wife not me. That sits well with you then?


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Her words: "At least I had the decency and good sense to choose a single AP"
> 
> Decency? What's she trying to imply? Why bring that up?
> 
> ...


I can your wife betrayed more people you, Om's wife two whole families were effected/destroyed.
you friendship that you had with OM,the friendship she had with OM's wife there are done forever, the same in my case


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> BTW, she actually took a shot at my wife not me. That sits well with you then?


she did not take a shot at anybody
pointing out how infidelity can effect more people in one case or the other


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> I can your wife betrayed more people you, Om's wife two whole families were effected/destroyed.
> you friendship that you had with OM,the friendship she had with OM's wife there are done forever, the same in my case


She also pointed out that she didn't cheat as long as my wife. Another attack on my wife. What I will point out is that when it all went down we only needed ONE dday, not 3. Again, I guess I don't have the fan squad so I'll stand alone on this one. I can't say I wasn't warned. It is noticed by a lot of other posters on this board. They don't want to jump in or a bunch of you will gang up on them.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> she did not take a shot at anybody
> pointing out how infidelity can effect more people in one case or the other


How was it not a shot? Even other posters that are normally part of her fanbase have said it was out of line. Can she do no wrong in your eyes?


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

convert said:


> she did not take a shot at anybody
> pointing out how infidelity can effect more people in one case or the other


You can say what you want, but it was obviously a shot taken at kev (more precisely kev's wife).


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Well heck then, she's a saint among sinners. Far better than "those other" cheaters. Right?


maybe


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

altawa said:


> You can say what you want, but it was obviously a shot taken at kev (more precisely kev's wife).


I think I need to start posting cute pictures of myself. Maybe that'll earn me a fanbase.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> maybe


Now we've entered the LOL zone.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

altawa said:


> You can say what you want, but it was obviously a shot taken at kev (more precisely kev's wife).


no or it certainly is not obvious


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> The difference, of course, is that I haven't posted cutesy pictures of myself for people to adore and compliment so I can't count on your support in these issues, no?


Dude. I am one of the truest living badasses since Wyatt Urp walked the earth. I can back my play and have my whole life.

I fear no one except God almighty. I have been harshly critical of EI when I strongly disagree with her. It has happened. Just not often. I agree with her a lot however and her pictures don't sway.

So when I ask if it was return fire it means maybe you took a shot first. I haven't seen her take a poke at someone unprovoked. Just my experience talking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Dude. I am one of the truest living badasses since Wyatt Urp walked the earth. I can back my play and have my whole life.
> 
> I fear no one except God almighty. I have been harshly critical of EI when I strongly disagree with her. It has happened. Just not often. I agree with her a lot however and her pictures don't sway.
> 
> ...


Nope. She didn't return fire at me. She returned it at my wife when she knows where we are in this process. I might have you beat in the badass department. I'm a Marine grunt and I don't fear God. If he exists, he fears Marines.  I can't say I wasn't warned. Look over the thread and tell me there isn't a fanbase that jumps to protect her.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> BTW, she actually took a shot at my wife not me. That sits well with you then?


I've taken a shot at both your wife and EI and IMHO, both were accurate. 

I will read this whole interchange now before responding further. You should know I've got your back. You had your life ripped in half. But I'll call anyone out if I think they're off. Going to check now...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Nope. She didn't return fire at me. She returned it at my wife when she knows where we are in this process. I might have you beat in the badass department. I'm a Marine grunt and I don't fear God. If he exists, he fears Marines.  I can't say I wasn't warned. Look over the thread and tell me there isn't a fanbase that jumps to protect her.


Love to spar sometime. If you're really big and fast it'll be better. &#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I agree BTW, about the fan base. I am just not part of it. I'm just her friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I've taken a shot at both your wife and EI and IMHO, both were accurate.
> 
> I will read this whole interchange now before responding further. You should know I've got your back. You had your life ripped in half. But I'll call anyone out if I think they're off. Going to check now...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Look for the section where I said WS's aren't entitled to anger. Sorrow, remorse, shame, etc. but not anger. They're the ones that cheated. Then the shots began and got more personal directed at my wife. Personally I think it's kind of funny when any cheater thinks they're a better class of cheater than another cheater. To be honest I'm kind of done with the whole thing. It's not worth the trouble. I was warned by several posters via PM not to cross her or the attack squads would circle. I assumed they were exaggerating.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I agree BTW, about the fan base. I am just not part of it. I'm just her friend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, thank you for at least admitting the existence of the fanbase. They're a very protective group.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

This would be I guess taking a shot at my wife she is worse then EI and your wife Kev because more people were effected/betrayed; I believe they were more kids between the two families in my case, my sone and OM 3 kids and they eventually found out. oh we were also good friends with OM's parents and OM's wife parents we don't talk to them anymore.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Look for the section where I said *WS's aren't entitled to anger*. Sorrow, remorse, shame, etc. but not anger. They're the ones that cheated. Then the shots began and got more personal directed at my wife. Personally I think it's kind of funny when any cheater thinks they're a better class of cheater than another cheater. To be honest I'm kind of done with the whole thing. It's not worth the trouble. I was warned by several posters via PM not to cross her or the attack squads would circle. I assumed they were exaggerating.


MY wife has anger at herself for the whole sh!t storm she caused


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> This would be I guess taking a shot at my wife she is worse then EI and your wife Kev because more people were effected/betrayed; I believe they were more kids between the two families in my case, my sone and OM 3 kids and they eventually found out. oh we were also good friends with OM's parents and OM's wife parents we don't talk to them anymore.


It's fine for you to take that shot. You earned it. The hard way, unfortunately. Is your story here? Sounds like we've gone through some of the same things. How'd yours end? Any regrets?


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> It's fine for you to take that shot. You earned it. The hard way, unfortunately. Is your story here? Sounds like we've gone through some of the same things. How'd yours end? Any regrets?


No my entire story is not here (I guess I would be afraid of the 2x4 coming out)
1 year 9 months since last Dday
still in R


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> MY wife has anger at herself for the whole sh!t storm she caused


That is a type of anger she's entitled to, just not anger toward you or even the OM or OMW. Cheaters have only themselves to blame. Nobody _made_ them do it. It was 100% their choice.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> No my entire story is not here (I guess I would be afraid of the 2x4 coming out)
> 1 year 9 months since last Dday
> still in R


At least you're still in R. Has she truly humbled herself? Admit what she is? That's the epiphany moment like addicts have. She's a cheater. That's a lifetime membership. She may be a recovered cheater some day but she'll always be a cheater. If she accepts this then your R has a chance because she'll definitely understand boundaries and be scared to death to cross them. Like how some recovering alcoholics will refuse to go into bars. Boundaries.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> Reconcile with a three time cheater? Three times that we know. Honestly, would you?


While your numbers could be called into question, I'll answer regardless...

Given the events and circumstances of my life, including both my past and present commitment to my wife and marriage, along w/ the general manner in which I've conducted myself throughout the course of my relationship w/ my wife, I would not choose / would not have chosen to reconcile w/ my wife in the event that she'd _physically_ cheated on me.

If, however, I felt that either my commitment or behavior in the weeks, months, or years leading up to such an affair were or had been questionable enough to warrant rebuke by any reasonably-minded outside observer... well, I could see being a bit more amenable to reconciliation in that case.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> While your numbers could be called into question, I'll answer regardless...
> 
> Given the events and circumstances of my life, including both my past and present commitment to my wife and marriage, along w/ the general manner in which I've conducted myself throughout the course of my relationship w/ my wife, I would not choose / would not have chosen to reconcile w/ my wife in the event that she'd _physically_ cheated on me.
> 
> If, however, I felt that either my commitment or behavior in the weeks, months, or years leading up to such an affair were or had been questionable enough to warrant rebuke by any reasonably-minded outside observer... well, I could see being a bit more amenable to reconciliation in that case.


That's a fair answer, and by fair I don't mean mediocre. It's a good answer and I agree.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> No, I take issue with blaming infidelity on that "sh*t".
> 
> Well he became the husband she wanted him to be. So not sure what there really was to vet unless during the time he changed for her she was still cheating.
> 
> ...





vellocet said:


> Sorry, but when someone points the finger at their spouse for their cheating, has told this forum that they don't regret the affair, and in the end got their spouse to do what they wanted....and then want us to know how angry they were? Sorry, not moved. You can call it foolish all you want. I imagine if I had posted that, I'd find myself in another time out.


And yet, for a successful reconciliation to occur, both the state of the pre-affair marriage AND the affair must be effectively addressed, no?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Hey bro. Just reviewed and I can see how you two rubbed the wrong way. She is coming from a vastly different perspective than your wife. For your situation, I absolutely agree with you. Your attitude is pretty flush for your WW and your R.

Her situation was truly different and I honestly don't think you have the whole picture with her. B1 has one thread that literally took me a month to cover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> At least you're still in R. Has she truly humbled herself? Admit what she is? That's the epiphany moment like addicts have. She's a cheater. That's a lifetime membership. She may be a recovered cheater some day but she'll always be a cheater. If she accepts this then your R has a chance because she'll definitely understand boundaries and be scared to death to cross them. Like how some recovering alcoholics will refuse to go into bars. Boundaries.


she has humbled her self and admitted what she did. she only went to two MC sessions though.
her boundaries are strong for now.
Relapse like an alcoholic, yes that is what I am worried about.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> The difference, of course, is that I haven't posted cutesy pictures of myself for people to adore and compliment so I can't count on your support in these issues, no?


You're way off base w/ ^this^, Kev.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

convert said:


> she has humbled her self and admitted what she did. she only went to two MC sessions though.
> her boundaries are strong for now.
> Relapse like an alcoholic, yes that is what I am worried about.


Relapse is possibility all BS's have to live with who decide to proceed with R. It's our burden to carry. We do it because we think it's worth it. Some don't. I can respect either decision.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> Well, thank you for at least admitting the existence of the fanbase. They're a very protective group.


What I choose to protect, defend, advocate for, or whatever you want to call it, are the following notions...

All _*husbands*_ are different, even if the degree to which each of them is different from every other is so minute that it can only be _perceived_, as opposed to empirically quantified and/or expressed.

All _*wives*_ are different, even if the degree to which each of them is different from every other is so minute that it can only be _perceived_, as opposed to empirically quantified and/or expressed.

All _*marriages*_ are different, even if the degree to which each of them is different from every other is so minute that it can only be _perceived_, as opposed to empirically quantified and/or expressed.

All _*affairs*_ are different, even if the degree to which each of them is different from every other is so minute that it can only be _perceived_, as opposed to empirically quantified and/or expressed.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I've taken a shot at both your wife and EI and IMHO, both were accurate.
> 
> I will read this whole interchange now before responding further. You should know I've got your back. You had your life ripped in half. But I'll call anyone out if I think they're off. Going to check now...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Go for it, CH. I'll even tell you where to start. Go to page 3, post # 35, I think. After having read KK's posts about his feelings regarding WS's not being entitled to anger, but also having read about his desire to attempt to reconcile, I wanted to caution him about the wisdom of not encouraging complete transparency between spouses. For good or for bad, it is imperative for both spouses to be completely honest with one another if R is to have a chance of succeeding. Honesty may include the WS expressing anger, like in my marriage, over the pre-A issues. 

I was initially commenting to KK, with the belief that we were all on the same page. I wanted to stress how importent an open and honest dialog is between spouses, especially during reconciliation. If a WS spouse feels anger, but has been told, or made to feel, that they are not entitled to express it, then how can they be completely transparent? I was genuinely trying to help. 

After making that post, I noticed that KK's responses kept getting more and more vitriolic towards me. CH, I think you know me well enough to know that whether one agrees with me or not, I am genuinely trying to be helpful. But, you also know that I am not going to allow anyone to treat me in that manner without calling them out. If I took all of the **** that a select number of members on TAM feel entitled to fling in my direction, I would be worthless to my husband, my children, and myself. And, that's not going to happen. The only people who I owe any humility to are my husband and my children, and to a lesser extent, our extended family. I'm doing everything that I can possibly do to be the kind of wife and mom that my husband and our children need and deserve. And, yes, B1 did a lot of work, as well. Because, whether we had remained together, or moved on without one another, we both had work to do. 

As far as the members of TAM go, if they're nice to me, I'll be nice to them. If they're not, I'll respond accordingly. 

I never said that I was a higher class of cheater than KK's wife. He repeatedly makes comments, putting words in my mouth that I've never said. But, after reading his comments stating what vile scum all cheaters were, who were not "entitled" to anger, I simply stated that my AP was single, and was not a friend of B1, or our family. Now, if he feels that is a poor reflection on his WS, he needs to take that up with her. 

I don't fire the first shot, but I will fire back.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> Yes but cheaters are cheaters. They're all members of the same club whether they're willing to admit it or not.





altawa said:


> *All* cheaters are equally sh!tty, scummy, horrible people.


Imagine a person whose spouse drinks him or herself into a stupor 2-3 times per month, after which he or she spends hours emotionally, verbally, and/or physically abusing his or her spouse. Then imagine that the abused spouse, seeking comfort, solace, and a safe haven, winds up in the arms of another man/woman.

Would you seriously choose to paint that person w/ such a broad brush?

If, given such a situation, you'd chose to direct all of your frustration solely toward the fact that the WS chose to cheat, then you're focusing on all the wrong details.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I agree BTW, about the fan base. I am just not part of it. I'm just her friend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel like the phrase "fan base" is being used in a derogatory manner, here. B1 and I do not have fans any more than any other members of TAM have fans. We do have a wonderful, large group of friends on TAM, who have supported, encouraged, inspired and, many times, especially early on, virtually carried us through some of the days when we didn't have the will to carry ourselves. 

That is something that we will always cherish and be grateful for. Because of that support, we have tried to do the same for others. I'd like to believe that is the primary purpose of TAM. This should be a place to come for those seeking help, who in return try to pay it forward.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> That's a fair answer, and by fair I don't mean mediocre. It's a good answer and I agree.


Thank you. And I think you'll find, by the way, that that's pretty standard for Yours Truly. :smthumbup:

All joking aside, I'll admit that I was somewhat hesitant to provide that reply, as I didn't want to unduly influence your own decision to reconcile... _which I *respect*_.

After all, as I've said before, I truly believe that, should you opt to _not_ reconcile, it will be *THE* thing that you regret on your deathbed.

Let something else be your regret.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Thank you. And I think you'll find, by the way, that that's pretty standard for Yours Truly. :smthumbup:
> 
> All joking aside, I'll admit that I was somewhat hesitant to provide that reply, as I didn't want to unduly influence your own decision to reconcile... _which I *respect*_.
> 
> ...


I respect that. One of my favorites writings is "The 5 Regrets of The Dying." It's almost religious text for me. I review it regularly to ensure I'm not inadvertently wading into one of the 5. It's a great, and short, read. I highly recommend it.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Imagine a person whose spouse drinks him or herself into a stupor 2-3 times per month, after which he or she spends hours emotionally, verbally, and/or physically abusing his or her spouse. Then imagine that the abused spouse, seeking comfort, solace, and a safe haven, winds up in the arms of another man/woman.
> 
> Would you seriously choose to paint that person w/ such a broad brush?
> 
> If, given such a situation, you'd chose to direct all of your frustration solely toward the fact that the WS chose to cheat, then you're focusing on all the wrong details.


You're god damned right I would. Divorce them. Then move on. DONT CHEAT.

The whole first paragraph is nothing but excuses for a cheater. Nothing more. Period. There is zero justification to cheat, ever.

I can't even believe you are trying to have that conversation.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EI said:


> Go for it, CH. I'll even tell you where to start. Go to page 3, post # 35, I think. After having read KK's posts about his feelings regarding WS's not being entitled to anger, but also having read about his desire to attempt to reconcile, I wanted to caution him about the wisdom of not encouraging complete transparency between spouses. For good or for bad, it is imperative for both spouses to be completely honest with one another if R is to have a chance of succeeding. Honesty may include the WS expressing anger, like in my marriage, over the pre-A issues.
> 
> I was initially commenting to KK, with the belief that we were all on the same page. I wanted to stress how importent an open and honest dialog is between spouses, especially during reconciliation. If a WS spouse feels anger, but has been told, or made to feel, that they are not entitled to express it, then how can they be completely transparent? I was genuinely trying to help.
> 
> ...


I get you. I've been around your posts enough to know you are trying to help. I think KK is still very close to barely surviving the wound his wife delivered. While I, again, do not condone, I actually get your situation and understand your recovery process. It is worlds away from Kevs. His WW actually scares the shyt out of me. Not even the first time I've seen the situation but always blows my mind when someone does it.

I don't think Kev has your whole picture. That while your cheating was just as bad a move as any cheater, your marriage had been dead for quite some time already. That for R to even have a chance that there had to be a marriage rebuilt before there was even anything to come back to.

Kevs wife had all that and a bag of chips and tore it down herself. She is solely to blame for the marriage destruction. She brutally murdered her marriage and family for......?

I think he is pretty spot on about his WW but missing something valid about you.

Hey Kev. EI does have some very good things to share about healing and kindness. If it doesn't jive with what you need right now that is cool. I am a really hard S.O.B. and I have gleaned a good soft point or two from her.

Anyway, piece. Hoping your family is doing well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> You're god damned right I would. *Divorce them. Then move on.* DONT CHEAT.


Yes. Because it's _always_ that easy, right?


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Yes. Because it's _always_ that easy, right?


Not as easy as being a lying cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Yes. Because it's _always_ that easy, right?


Yeah. To somebody with an ounce of integrity it is.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EI said:


> I feel like the phrase "fan base" is being used in a derogatory manner, here. B1 and I do not have fans any more than any other members of TAM have fans. We do have a wonderful, large group of friends on TAM, who have supported, encouraged, inspired and, many times, especially early on, virtually carried us through some of the days when we didn't have the will to carry ourselves.
> 
> That is something that we will always cherish and be grateful for. Because of that support, we have tried to do the same for others. I'd like to believe that is the primary purpose of TAM. This should be a place to come for those seeking help, who in return try to pay it forward.


I got no beef with anyone that has a cheering squad. You and B1 do. I don't look on anyone in a derogatory fashion. I know that desperately hurting people need hope and people that are healing and succeeding are looked up to and cherished. Understandable.

That cherishing can and sometimes does put people on pedestals somewhat. It can blur observation at times. You are certainly not guilty of being anything but nice for sure.

I actually think it a waste to focus on this issue anyway. If someone has a conviction, they should be able to stand by it regardless of opposition.

I personally appreciate your kindness towards me. Thank you. CH.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> You're god damned right I would. Divorce them. Then move on. DONT CHEAT.
> 
> The whole first paragraph is nothing but excuses for a cheater. Nothing more. Period. There is zero justification to cheat, ever.
> 
> I can't even believe you are trying to have that conversation.


You think these scenarios don't exist?


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> You think these scenarios don't exist?


Well, since I work in LE, I know they exist. That doesn't change my outlook one bit. Not one little bit.

Are you implying that sometimes it's ok to cheat? Because that is what that post alludes to.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> Yeah. To somebody with an ounce of integrity it is.


Again w/ the broad brush. I hope you're all stocked up on paint.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Not as easy as being a lying cheat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*And with very rare exception, it greatly stands to reason that most all cheaters meet the prerequisites for being liars!*


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Again w/ the broad brush. I hope you're all stocked up on paint.


Well then, make your case.....tell me how they can't divorce instead of cheating on their spouse. Tell me how they are trapped and can't go to the shelter, get the free legal aid lawyer, the grant money from the public assistance programs, or god forbid a job of their own and fund their own divorce. But, somehow, they find their way clear to cheat.

People in that position obviously aren't staying because they are scared, because the fear of an affair being discovered by somebody already physically abusive would be terrifying. People in that position stay because they are lazy and dont want to change. I have seen it time and time again.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

EI said:


> *At least I had the decency and good sense to choose a single AP.* In fact, with that in mind, I completely understand why you have such harsh words for cheaters. But, that was your cheater.


I respect and admire you, EI, so I'm disappointed and taken aback by this phrasing that heavily implies that you think you're better than other people who cheated because you "had the decency and good sense" to only cheat with one person, etc. Seemed like a backhanded insult to the rest of us who didn't follow that particular cheating formula.

I guess all people are just waiting to kick someone else they consider beneath them. But all people are dirty. Every.single.one.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> Well, since I work in LE, I know they exist. That doesn't change my outlook one bit. Not one little bit.
> 
> Are you implying that sometimes it's ok to cheat? Because that is what that post alludes to.


Dude. No. Not at all.

What I'm _trying_ to say is that...

(a) _some_ situations involving infidelity are at least somewhat _*understandable*_, and

(b) in at least _some_ of _*^these^*_ situations, the fact that the WS has engaged in adultery is rendered somewhat trivial when compared to some of the other elements involved (i.e. abuse, etc).


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> Well then, make your case.....tell me how they can't divorce instead of cheating on their spouse. Tell me how they are trapped and can't go to the shelter, get the free legal aid lawyer, the grant money from the public assistance programs, or god forbid a job of their own and fund their own divorce. But, somehow, they find their way clear to cheat.
> 
> *People in that position obviously aren't staying because they are scared*, because the fear of an affair being discovered by somebody already physically abusive would be terrifying. People in that position stay because they are lazy and dont want to change. I have seen it time and time again.


Assume that they are, then start over.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Dude. No. Not at all.
> 
> What I'm _trying_ to say is that...
> 
> ...


No. Cheating is NEVER justifiable/understandable. EVER. The fact that you are trying to go to these lengths to make this argument makes that 'dude, no' up above moot. The rest of your post belies your true outlook on it, which is to say that you DO feel that sometimes cheating is ok. What I find more interesting is that the circumstances you keep trying to use seem to be very similar to the ones in EI's betrayal from what I have gleaned from this thread. Tell me, how close is the following post to the actual circumstances of EI's betrayal?



> Imagine a person whose spouse drinks him or herself into a stupor 2-3 times per month, after which he or she spends hours emotionally, verbally, and/or physically abusing his or her spouse. Then imagine that the abused spouse, seeking comfort, solace, and a safe haven, winds up in the arms of another man/woman.





GusPolinski said:


> Assume that they are, then start over.


No. I am not letting you create a false dilemma in order to justify your false reality that sometimes cheating is ok. Not going to happen. I know what resources are out there, because when I respond to calls for service, I leave the pamphlets behind. You know where they go....promptly into the trash. They dont want help in the long term. They want help right that second. Once that is satiated, they are fine. Besides, there are plenty of people that dont need those resources. Plenty of people just need their families, or to sack up and divorce, but are too damn lazy to do it and dont want to rock the boat or screw up the status quo. Instead, it is easier in their minds to just fvck, blow, etc somebody else. 

Great solution.


----------



## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm going to repost this excellent post from another moderator. Read it and think about it before you post in this thread.



Deejo said:


> I don't think there are any bitter betrayed spouses here with unresolved issues, unable to see how they contributed to collapse of their marriage at all.
> 
> I mean it's not like they just come here to relive their own pain and take a few shots at waywards who are also in pain. Because after all, we know that waywards can't possibly feel pain about infidelity on their own. We have to beat it into them ... with love ... and a bat; all under the guise of helping them see the truth. That what they did is the most selfish and evil thing anyone could possibly do, ever.
> 
> ...


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

altawa said:


> No. Cheating is NEVER justifiable/understandable. EVER. The fact that you are trying to go to these lengths to make this argument makes that 'dude, no' up above moot. The rest of your post belies your true outlook on it, which is to say that you DO feel that sometimes cheating is ok. What I find more interesting is that the circumstances you keep trying to use seem to be very similar to the ones in EI's betrayal from what I have gleaned from this thread. Tell me, how close is the following post to the actual circumstances of EI's betrayal?
> 
> 
> _FWIW, that particular set of circumstances in no way whatsoever parallels mine. And, I don't think that my cheating was justified. So, I would appreciate being left out of your exchange. _


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> I respect and admire you, EI, so I'm disappointed and taken aback by this phrasing that heavily implies that you think you're better than other people who cheated because you "had the decency and good sense" to only cheat with one person, etc. Seemed like a backhanded insult to the rest of us who didn't follow that particular cheating formula.
> 
> I guess all people are just waiting to kick someone else they consider beneath them. But all people are dirty. Every.single.one.


Once again, FWIW, single as in _unmarried,_ not single as in _one._ Although, for the purposes of accuracy, there was only one AP. That doesn't make my A any better or any worse than anyone else's. Though, it may have yielded less collateral damage than those involving two married/partnered AP's. All cheating is wrong. Period.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

EI said:


> FWIW, that particular set of circumstances in no way whatsoever parallels mine. And, I don't think that my cheating was justified. So, I would appreciate being left out of your exchange.


So, his set of circumstances blame the BS for the affair, basically. Earlier in this thread, I saw something similar re: your affair. How accurate is that? Did you blame your husband, and if so, why? I also saw something regarding you not regretting your affair. Is that accurate?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> No. Cheating is NEVER justifiable/understandable. EVER. The fact that you are trying to go to these lengths to make this argument makes that 'dude, no' up above moot.


Nope.



altawa said:


> The rest of your post belies your true outlook on it, which is to say that you DO feel that sometimes cheating is ok.


Nope.



altawa said:


> What I find more interesting is that the circumstances you keep trying to use seem to be very similar to the ones in EI's betrayal from what I have gleaned from this thread. Tell me, how close is the following post to the actual circumstances of EI's betrayal?


They're actually not very similar at all.



altawa said:


> No. I am not letting you create a false dilemma in order to justify your false reality that sometimes cheating is ok. Not going to happen. I know what resources are out there, because when I respond to calls for service, I leave the pamphlets behind. You know where they go....promptly into the trash. They dont want help in the long term. They want help right that second. Once that is satiated, they are fine. Besides, there are plenty of people that dont need those resources. Plenty of people just need their families, or to sack up and divorce, but are too damn lazy to do it and dont want to rock the boat or screw up the status quo. Instead, it is easier in their minds to just fvck, blow, etc somebody else.
> 
> Great solution.


You are attempting to take countless scenarios involving infidelity -- each of which involves a set of unique and potentially very complex variables -- and boil each of them down to a set of fixed absolutes.

Sorry, not buying it.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Kev

You are spending too much time posting about EI and debating others about EI’s integrity!

*Wouldn’t you be helping your R more by concentrating and acting on the positive you and your wife can do to give your R a better s chance of being successful?*


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Kev unsubscribe from the thread and you as well altawa. It is not worth a ban over semantics.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you are trying to say that the greatest trespass against a person, infidelity in marriage, is ok....sometimes. I mean, hell, read the top of your post compared to the bottom. You are not even staying consistent on it.

Cheating is NEVER ok. EVER. Anybody that thinks it is ever justifiable is skewed.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Kev unsubscribe from the thread and you as well altawa. It is not worth a ban over semantics.


No. I am not doing that. I haven't broken any terms of service, any rules, and am not telling any lies or slinging any personal attacks (though I have seen some in this very thread).

I do, however, refuse to budge in my stance about cheating.

ETA: I am, however, going to bed soon because I have to work in the morning.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> And you are trying to say that the greatest trespass against a person, infidelity in marriage, is ok....sometimes.


Nope.



altawa said:


> I mean, hell, read the top of your post compared to the bottom. You are not even staying consistent on it.


I'm being very consistent. You're just not getting it.



altawa said:


> Cheating is NEVER ok. EVER. Anybody that thinks it is ever justifiable is skewed.


There is a difference between "OK", "justifiable", and "understandable".


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

altawa said:


> No. I am not doing that. I haven't broken any terms of service, any rules, and am not telling any lies or slinging any personal attacks


Cool, ask vellocet how that worked out for him.




altawa said:


> (though I have seen some in this very thread).


The word you are looking for is baiting. See, I wasn't kidding about semantics.



altawa said:


> I do, however, refuse to budge in my stance about cheating.


Never said you should. I think the mods do a great job, but bans can be strange. I'd rather see you two keep posting....and...yeah....I'll keep the rest to myself.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, there isnt. Understandable imparts the thought that you could put yourself in that persons position and get to the same conclusion, that it is expected. Since cheating is never ok, it should never be an expectation (except from somebody already id'd as a cheater, which is a different conversation). The definition provided includes 'forgivable', however that is a part of R if so desired, and in no way should be any part of the stage setting for betrayal, which is what 'understandable' would be.



> *understandable*
> [ ˌəndərˈstandəbəl ]
> ADJECTIVE
> adjective: *understandable*
> ...


 Justifiable means just what it sounds like, that it was justified based on circumstances. ok means that it is completely acceptable. I am not going to post definitions for the other two because I dont think it is necessary.

You might want to believe there is a difference, just so your argument will work, but in reality it isnt so. In the end, none of those terms work with infidelity since cheating is never ok, never justifiable, and never understandable. Anybody saying it is justifiable or understandable is making excuses and scapegoating for sh!tty behavior and a scummy person.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> No, there isn't.


Yep.



altawa said:


> Understandable imparts the thought that you could put yourself in that persons position and get to the same conclusion, that it is expected.


Or, rather, that one could UNDERSTAND how -- given a certain set of circumstances -- someone could wind up in such a predicament.



altawa said:


> Since cheating is never ok...


Since this seems to be what you're banging your head against, allow me to explicitly state what should be pretty obvious...

I agree.



altawa said:


> ...it should never be an expectation (except from somebody already id'd as a cheater, which is a different conversation).


And yet someone who chooses to abuse and/or perpetually neglect his or her spouse should fully expect -- absent a change in his or her own sh*tty behavior -- to find him or herself devoid of said spouse, yes?



altawa said:


> You might want to believe there is a difference...


There is.



altawa said:


> ...just so your argument will work...


It does.



altawa said:


> ...but in reality it isnt so.


It is.



altawa said:


> In the end, none of those terms work with infidelity since *cheating is never ok*...


I'd agree.



altawa said:


> ...never justifiable...


Again, I'd agree.



altawa said:


> ...and never understandable.


Agree to disagree.



altawa said:


> Anybody saying it is justifiable or understandable is making excuses and scapegoating for sh!tty behavior and a scummy person.


Well damn. You got paint on me.

Look, you're talking to the guy that urged his mother to divorce his father from the very moment that his father's affair came to light. Same for my SIL and brother. Same for my aunt (father's sister) and uncle.

I understand your anger and outrage. I get the hurt and confusion. And, having been a BS myself, I've fully experienced all of it.

I'm fine w/ the fact that we're pretty much gridlocked in a disagreement over what essentially amounts to semantics, but did you really feel the need to go there?


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> I guess all people are just waiting to kick someone else they consider beneath them. But all people are dirty. Every.single.one.


Such is life. We are hypersensitive to feeling judged so much so that things like "well I may be X at least I'm not Y" comes out. And that's generally followed by "How dare you call me Y".


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

altawa said:


> Cheating is NEVER ok. EVER. Anybody that thinks it is ever justifiable is skewed.


I hope that most of us can agree that it's not ever ok or justifiable to cheat. The issue I see is that we don't separate that one simple truth away from other issue. For instance, if I heard a story of someone who cheated after years of a sexless marriage, I would still firmly believe that cheating is wrong and never justifiable. I could also see how the sexless marriage contributed to that person being vulnerable to cheat. That's because those two things are separate issues that we can't clump togther.

And then there's a new angle when a couple is trying to reconcile. Yes cheating was wrong but reconciliation is about redemption and the BS feeling like the WS has redeemable qualities. Redemption is about a person who has done a bad thing or bad things becoming a better person who will no longer do those bad things.

Anyway altawa, I just wanted to specifically agree with your assertion that cheating is always a bad choice.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

My aunt was a cheater. She cheated on her drug addict of an ex, whom abandoned the family and left them broke. He allowed his children to go hungry because he cannot control his addiction. She one day found another man whom helped her out and she fell in love with his compassion. They are still together. Her ex eventually went to prison. His children have nothing to do with him and they love their stepfather as their real father. Life is what it is. As far as I know, she does not feel any remorse. My pov, her ex does not deserve his loyalty. I am indifferent about the cheating.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

altawa said:


> And you are trying to say that the greatest trespass against a person, infidelity in marriage, is ok....sometimes. I mean, hell, read the top of your post compared to the bottom. You are not even staying consistent on it.
> 
> Cheating is NEVER ok. EVER. Anybody that thinks it is ever justifiable is skewed.


*Totally agreed, altawa! With all the pain that my, rich, skanky XW's affairs and resulting deception put me through, as I even told her once, "why don't you just take me out to back of the ranchland and shoot me!" I would have been far better off if she had!

Cheating is not in my mindset; never has been ~ never will be! I was raised with way too much of a moral compass! Let it be known that I have nothing but the utmost disrespect for cheaters, whether they are my XW, my business associates, my friends, whoever!

Why? Because they had stood before their spouse, their family, their friends, their community, their clergy, and most importantly, before the Heavenly Father, professing those most holy vows to "love, honor, and cherish," and "forsaking all others, and comforting them in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, until death do you part?"

When the dopamine for some "strange" finally kicks in, so do the lack of their active memory cells in remembering these same sacred vows. That is what literally pi$$es me off at cheaters!

Another attribute of the cheater that royally pi$$es me off even more, is their wanton deception in conducting their illicit acts as well as their implicit denial in their final desperate acts of self-preservation and self-justification!

But the preeminent thing that does me in regarding cheaters is, once they are outed, their firm stance of unremorse toward their betrayed spouse, and to their entire community as well!*


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Well damn. You got paint on me.
> 
> Look, you're talking to the guy that urged his mother to divorce his father from the very moment that his father's affair came to light. Same for my SIL and brother. Same for my aunt (father's sister) and uncle.
> 
> ...


Well, I am providing citation for my position. You are providing one word answers/responses. Words have meanings. You dont get to change the meanings to suit your purposes.

As far as 'me going there', I am not now, and will not, change my view. CHEATING IS NEVER OK, JUSTIFIABLE, OR UNDERSTANDABLE. Get a freaking divorce first. If they dont choose to work on the marriage, and decide they need to be with someone else, they need to terminate the marriage they are in first. Period. End of story. And, I stand by my statement 100% that anybody attempting to find justification or understanding for cheaters is making excuses and scapegoating for sh!tty, scummy people.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

altawa said:


> Well, I am providing citation for my position. You are providing one word answers/responses. Words have meanings. You dont get to change the meanings to suit your purposes.


I’m not changing anything. I’m simply providing some context. All you’ve done is rage on your keyboard a bit while providing dictionary entries for a few words sans context.



altawa said:


> As far as 'me going there', I am not now, and will not, change my view.


That’s fine. You have every right to your opinion. As I do mine.

Honestly, though, mine is less an opinion than it is the ability to look at different situations at least somewhat objectively… even if they differ from my own.



altawa said:


> CHEATING IS NEVER OK, JUSTIFIABLE…


I’d agree.



altawa said:


> …OR UNDERSTANDABLE.


To you, perhaps. But if you’re ready to unequivocally state that no aspect of _any_ affair — specifically, that the circumstances and/or marital environment that existed prior the affair could conceivably result in a vulnerability in the WS, whereby he or she may find himself receptive to the advances or allure of another — could ever be in any way understandable to you, then I submit that one or more of the following are true…

* You’re still pretty close to the anger and pain stemming from your own situation.

* You’re unable to see how any aspect of your wife’s affair was at all understandable. And maybe that’s a fair assessment. I honestly don’t recall; though I remember reading through your thread, I can’t quite remember the details.

* You’re just stubborn.



altawa said:


> Get a freaking divorce first. If they dont choose to work on the marriage, and decide they need to be with someone else, they need to terminate the marriage they are in first. Period. End of story.


Though I’m not a fan of absolutes, I don’t disagree w/ this. But the fact that you keep coming back to it could lead one to believe that you tend to hold the marriage license in a higher regard than you do the marriage that it legitimizes. Is this a fair assessment?

Either way, I’d think that we’d all agree that there’s a certain amount of resolve required in order for one to maintain his or her integrity. What we may disagree on is the notion that there are likewise certain things that have the potential to erode said resolve; namely, abuse, etc.



altawa said:


> And, I stand by my statement 100%…


That’s fine.



altawa said:


> …that anybody attempting to find justification or understanding for cheaters is making excuses and scapegoating for sh!tty, scummy people.


Not at all.

Look, I don’t get why the notion that someone would seek to understand or could understand why a WS would choose to commit adultery is so threatening to you. I mean… that’s why we ask questions like… 

“Why did you do it?”
“How could you do this to me?”
“What were you thinking?”
“Did you even think about the kids?”

…right?

Said understanding doesn’t absolve the WS of fault or guilt for his or her decision to stray, nor does it in any way excuse it.

Neither does said understanding trivialize or invalidate the BS’s hurt, anger, confusion, or rage.

That one could find a thing understandable means nothing more that one could understand it. That’s it.

Either way, we’ve both thrown a lot of words at this discussion already, and I’m ready to concede that neither of us is going to convince the other. My position has only ever been the following…



GusPolinski said:


> All _*husbands*_ are different, even if the degree to which each of them is different from every other is so minute that it can only be _perceived_, as opposed to empirically quantified and/or expressed.
> 
> All _*wives*_ are different, even if the degree to which each of them is different from every other is so minute that it can only be _perceived_, as opposed to empirically quantified and/or expressed.
> 
> ...


----------



## unsureone (Feb 4, 2015)

unsureone said:


> Thank you. I will ask him. He is a problem solver personality. Works on something until he finds a solution. Maybe this would help us both.



Should I worry that he has not said anything about the list of what I need to do to reconcile unless I ask. And then its quick. He hasnt even started it. I am sure in his head, but 5 days later?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I spoke with an angry man tonight. He had an affair about 2 years ago, and since then he has been trying to gain his wife’s forgiveness. It hasn’t worked. Unfortunately, due to an unwillingness to change response patterns, sometimes it just doesn’t. It is more than possible to find healing and reconciliation, but for an injured spouse the journey after betrayal is not easy. What is sad isn’t her inability to forgive, but the fact that *the bitterness resulting from what has occurred and her lack of anger management is destroying them both*. In her hurt, rather than letting go, choosing to walk through the pain and move on, it seems she has tried to hurt him as badly as he has hurt her; this is her antidote to dealing with betrayal. She may have finally succeeded.





KingwoodKev said:


> WS's don't have the right of anger. Shame, remorse, humiliation, sadness...those are emotions they're entitled to but anger? No.


Kev, weren't you just discussing your neighbor, the BW who couldn't move past what happened? She's in this same boat, I think. If her H hadn't run away, they might be in this same boat.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

turnera said:


> Kev, weren't you just discussing your neighbor, the BW who couldn't move past what happened? She's in this same boat, I think. If her H hadn't run away, they might be in this same boat.


She's entitled to anger, rage, vitriol, etc. Her ex isn't. My recovering WS isn't. They forfeit that right like the rights convicted felons forfeit. They can feel it if they want but they better not express it to those they've betrayed.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> She's entitled to anger, rage, vitriol, etc. Her ex isn't. My recovering WS isn't. They forfeit that right like the rights convicted felons forfeit. They can feel it if they want but they better not express it to those they've betrayed.


Just based on this, I would say your wife would be wise to seek a divorce.

True, heartfelt reconciliation will not work without transparency and humility on both sides.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, I'm getting a little concerned now, Kev. All this time you've seemed to be a really level-headed guy, thinking things through, but this thread has REALLY set you off, and it would behoove you to get yourself back into IC and figure out what you're REALLY gonna do when your butterflies and unicorns reconciliation takes a day off and your wife, for that day, is just, well, normal. It happens. She won't be kissing your ass for the rest of your life. If that's what you require, maybe you need to just cut the cord.

For how long are YOU entitled to rage?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

turnera said:


> Yeah, I'm getting a little concerned now, Kev. All this time you've seemed to be a really level-headed guy, thinking things through, but this thread has REALLY set you off, and it would behoove you to get yourself back into IC and figure out what you're REALLY gonna do when your butterflies and unicorns reconciliation takes a day off and your wife, for that day, is just, well, normal. It happens. She won't be kissing your ass for the rest of your life. If that's what you require, maybe you need to just cut the cord.
> 
> For how long are YOU entitled to rage?


She can get mad about a lot of things but not about what she did. Mad at herself, sure, and she has. I no longer beat her over the head with it. My rage is gone. As I said on my main thread (that seems to have been deleted), For me to move forward I had to forgive and let go of the anger. Not suppress it, that doesn't work, but let it go. I've done that. It was liberating. I do loathe cheating now and any movie, tv show, discussion, etc. that ever excuses it. I never really thought about it much in the past because I actually thought we were immune to it. Cheaters make me very angry. Cheaters even make my wife very angry. I guess I should have clarified myself. People can feel whatever they want. If someone who cheated feels angry with anyone but themselves about their own affair then they're probably not a very decent person. Cheaters that feel devastated, remorseful, and furious at themselves for their behavior have a chance at personal redemption. Those that feel nothing or anger at others about their own affair are more like sociopaths and are probably going to repeat the behavior.

That's assuming there wasn't dual affairs going on with both partners or that one partner wasn't physically or emotionally abusive. Those are special circumstances. Cheating is wrong even then but anger isn't.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

jld said:


> Just based on this, I would say your wife would be wise to seek a divorce.
> 
> True, heartfelt reconciliation will not work without transparency and humility on both sides.


But we have 100% transparency and humility. She's even answered every question I asked whether it's humiliating to her or very hurtful to me. There are no secrets. There really weren't many secrets before until her midlife crisis hit and she wouldn't share her pain and uncertainty about who she was. That hurt really bad. Marriage means you share it all, good and bad. She didn't want to pull me into her problem because she said it was her problem and she wanted to work it out. It's all getting much better now.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> But we have 100% transparency and humility. She's even answered every question I asked whether it's humiliating to her or very hurtful to me. There are no secrets. There really weren't many secrets before until her midlife crisis hit and she wouldn't share her pain and uncertainty about who she was. That hurt really bad. Marriage means you share it all, good and bad. She didn't want to pull me into her problem because she said it was her problem and she wanted to work it out. It's all getting much better now.


On _both_ sides, Kev. That includes _you._


----------



## Daniel. (Jan 14, 2015)

Just wondering, what kind of anger and rage does WS feel ? Anger toward losing the AP or is there others ?
Just to be clear i'm an exWS but i've never felt anger or rage toward my wife after my EA, extreme shame and guilt yes


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Daniel. said:


> Just wondering, what kind of anger and rage does WS feel ? Anger toward losing the AP or is there others ?
> Just to be clear i'm an exWS but i've never felt anger or rage toward my wife after my EA, extreme shame and guilt yes


Maybe not _rage_, per se, but perhaps anger stemming from this...



unsureone said:


> *So the hurt spouse is allowed to be verbally abusive the cheater forever because they need to pay? Regardless of their efforts to repair their marriage?*
> 
> I disagree. *It's acceptable (*** NOTE*** changed "unacceptable" to "acceptable" since this appears to be what the OP meant -GP) to punish your spouse for eternity?* How can you ever reconcile or rebuild? With the for eye an eye....? Not every cheat is the same. All hurtful and selfish. But to be angry at someone because they deserve it, they are only hurting themselves more. No one can say how long someone will be angry, but for ever? I understand every now and again.
> 
> I live it.. everyday. I try my hardest everyday. I have jumped through hoops, bent over backwards, done things most wouldn't. I am not perfect at all. *But I deserve to be yelled at whenever he wants? Like a punching bag?* Because I had an emotional email affair? *Like I don't matter?*


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

jld said:


> On _both_ sides, Kev. That includes _you._


I've done everything everyone asks of me. Even when a bad MC keeps saying this all must have been my fault. Even my wife had to cut her off and tell her to stop blaming me, that it was her own fault not mine. I was willing to do whatever it takes. Want to blame me? Sure, I'll swallow that if it'll help. I was broken and I was a man who couldn't be broken. I'm a USMC grunt veteran that has been to war more than once. That didn't come close to breaking me but this betrayal did. I have no more pride. I just don't subscribe to the theory of getting angry at victims.

I've even let go of my rage over being betrayed. Two years was long enough. That time is probably different for everyone. Some never let it go. I chose to, I didn't want to live that way anymore. I don't blame others if they can't let it go. I've asked over and over and over tell me anything and everything I've done wrong in this marriage so I can learn from it. Every single time I was told that I did nothing wrong. I was a dream husband, that the event was on her because she was freaking out about a lot of things and that an affair turned out to be an outlet or escape from the freaking out but then it exacerbated the freaking out and kept spiraling out of control until she had lost herself completely (her words).

I think you all misunderstand the anger I say WS's are not entitled to. WS cheats, gets caught, gets mad at BS for spying on them or not trusting them. I've seen it. There are a lot of BS's here that that has happened to. I'm lucky I'm not one of them. That's the anger they're not entitled to.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kev, I think people are gently trying to tell you that you aren't really over it. You FEEL over it. For now. But you've buried it. Just a month (?) ago, you just wanted to hurt her. Now you're fine? You triggered REALLY badly on this thread, which is a good indication that you have used your current success in R (the feel good stage) to tamp down what's been sustaining you for two years. Because you FEEL good right now, you believe you're fine, you've moved on, but your reactions here speak otherwise. That's the transparency I think jld is talking about. IC can help you with that.

And I think the anger being spoken of here is that of a former WS who is trying to be in reconciliation but is continually cast as the sinner who has no rights, forever more. That person, no matter how hard they try to make up for what they did, WILL reach a point where they just can't do it anymore, wearing the sinner's sackcloth, so to speak. If you had let your wife stay and two years later were still 'making her pay' from INside your home, I daresay she'd be beginning to feel some anger. Either you (the proverbial BS, not just you) accept what happened and make a real attempt to move forward, or you divorce. There's another thread here where the woman is in the home with her WH, but she's a virtual prisoner and apparently will be for the rest of her life, because he just won't let go of the hate, but he also won't let HER go. That's the sort of situation being discussed, I think.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Daniel. said:


> Just wondering, what kind of anger and rage does WS feel ? Anger toward losing the AP or is there others ?
> Just to be clear i'm an exWS but i've never felt anger or rage toward my wife after my EA, extreme shame and guilt yes


What you felt means there's hope for you. You screwed up but you know, own it, and can find personal redemption.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

turnera said:


> Kev, I think people are gently trying to tell you that you aren't really over it. You FEEL over it. For now. But you've buried it. Just a month (?) ago, you just wanted to hurt her. Now you're fine? You triggered REALLY badly on this thread, which is a good indication that you have used your current success in R (the feel good stage) to tamp down what's been sustaining you for two years. Because you FEEL good right now, you believe you're fine, you've moved on, but your reactions here speak otherwise. That's the transparency I think jld is talking about. IC can help you with that.



My reactions here are based on my loathing of cheaters. Especially cheaters that try to take a position of moral high ground. Cheaters on a high horse. That's a hoot. My soul is laid on the table during counseling. I hold nothing back and talk about every little thing I feel. I'll never cut cheaters slack again. I used to be kind of indifferent about it. I thought they were bad people but didn't think much on the subject. Now I know the destruction they leave in their wake so I know the severity of their crime. It's a horrific thing to do to someone. I don't hold that back. My wife has heard these exact words and understands it.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

turnera said:


> Kev, I think people are gently trying to tell you that you aren't really over it. You FEEL over it. For now. But you've buried it. Just a month (?) ago, you just wanted to hurt her. Now you're fine? You triggered REALLY badly on this thread, which is a good indication that you have used your current success in R (the feel good stage) to tamp down what's been sustaining you for two years. Because you FEEL good right now, you believe you're fine, you've moved on, but your reactions here speak otherwise. That's the transparency I think jld is talking about. IC can help you with that.
> 
> And I think the anger being spoken of here is that of a former WS who is trying to be in reconciliation but is continually cast as the sinner who has no rights, forever more. That person, no matter how hard they try to make up for what they did, WILL reach a point where they just can't do it anymore, wearing the sinner's sackcloth, so to speak. If you had let your wife stay and two years later were still 'making her pay' from INside your home, I daresay she'd be beginning to feel some anger. Either you (the proverbial BS, not just you) accept what happened and make a real attempt to move forward, or you divorce. There's another thread here where the woman is in the home with her WH, but she's a virtual prisoner and apparently will be for the rest of her life, because he just won't let go of the hate, but he also won't let HER go. That's the sort of situation being discussed, I think.



I agree with this. If that's what's happening then there is no real R occurring. For R to succeed you have to let it go. All of it. I'm doing that. Does that mean that I'll pull my punches with WS's here that I think are not being fully truthful about how repentant they are? He11 no.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Fair enough. Just keep this conversation in mind when/if you start having problems at home.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> My reactions here are based on my loathing of cheaters. Especially cheaters that try to take a position of moral high ground. Cheaters on a high horse. That's a hoot. My soul is laid on the table during counseling. I hold nothing back and talk about every little thing I feel. I'll never cut cheaters slack again. I used to be kind of indifferent about it. I thought they were bad people but didn't think much on the subject. Now I know the destruction they leave in their wake so I know the severity of their crime. It's a horrific thing to do to someone. I don't hold that back. My wife has heard these exact words and understands it.


I will know you are healed when you can turn to your wife and say, "I wasn't there for you. If I had been, you would've turned to me."

"You were struggling and I wasn't the first person that you thought to run to. You felt safer keeping it inside, and then you went to the wrong person, someone who did not truly love you."

"I want to be the person that you turn to whenever you have need. Please help me understand why I wasn't before, and how I can be in the future. And please know how sorry I am."


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

That part is understandable. It is different when a stranger hurts you compared to someone you have an attachment with.

I will be honest. Depending on the situation, I do not always care if the ws cheats. My father threw a hammer at my mom that luckily missed and went through a wall instead. I had to watch police officers take him away for an early childhood memory. He pushed me to the brink where I wanted to die to escape him and the pain he caused, and if I ever cried, I got beaten worse. You can ask me and my siblings, and I would not have cared if my mother cheated on my father if it means getting away from him.

Also, life is not fair and you have to learn to adapt to the circumstances of life. I never gotten an apology, and it became my issue to work on that anger. Sure, my father was a good source of helping me create a lot of dysfunction in myself, but it became mine to deal with. I learn to forgive him to stop carrying the baggage of anger and resentment. Forgiveness was a part of his benefit, but it was mostly for me.

My mother told me stories about his childhood, and I can see where his problems stemmed from. If I was not careful, I can continue down the same path he headed down. Luckily for me, I am more analytical than he was. He did change enough where he became a decent person until he died five years later after he quit drinking.

After I let my self worth go, I had to learn to rebuild it. Even when my ex-fiance cheated on me, it made me angry, but not to the point of rage. I learned to master myself and how to handle my emotions in a healthy way. To this day, I do not hold any animosity towards her. I do not want her to be miserable or suffer. If I didn't forgive and move on, then I would let that situation have power and control over me and change me for the worse. It is hard, but I chose to be free as best as I can be. I am not totally free since that experience help me gain wisdom. But I am free from the bitterness, anger, resentment, and I could see her for the dysfunctional person that she was.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> I will know you are healed when you can turn to your wife and say, "I wasn't there for you. If I had been, you would've turned to me."
> 
> "You were struggling and I wasn't the first person that you thought to run to. You felt safer keeping it inside, and then you went to the wrong person, someone who did not truly love you."
> 
> "I want to be the person that you turn to whenever you have need. Please help me understand why I wasn't before, and how I can be in the future. And please know how sorry I am."


In other words, Kev, you have no one and nothing but yourself and your male genitalia to blame for your wife's "MLC" and/or affair. And, until you're able to humble yourself and lie prostrate before her, in full admittance of this, you don't deserve to have her in your life.

AYFKM?!?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

jld said:


> I will know you are healed when you can turn to your wife and say, "I wasn't there for you. If I had been, you would've turned to me."
> 
> "You were struggling and I wasn't the first person that you thought to run to. You felt safer keeping it inside, and then you went to the wrong person, someone who did not truly love you."
> 
> "I want to be the person that you turn to whenever you have need. Please help me understand why I wasn't before, and how I can be in the future. And please know how sorry I am."


I've already said just about those exact things. I figured if she cheated then obviously I had done something wrong. The thing is, I was there for her. I've always been there for her and still am. She says it wasn't me or our life, it was her.

BTW, you sound a lot like our MC that even my wife dubbed a "man hater" and said we need to dump.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> In other words, Kev, you have no one and nothing but yourself and your male genitalia to blame for your wife's "MLC" and/or affair. And, until you're able to humble yourself and lie prostrate before her, in full admittance of this, you don't deserve to have her in your life.
> 
> AYFKM?!?


She made her own choices. But a dominant male is not going to sit around in self pity. He is going to own his part in what happened, however small he thinks it is.

It is called _empowerment, _Gus. It is the opposite of sitting in the _victim chair._


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> I've already said just about those exact things. I was there for her. I've always been there for her and still am. She says it wasn't me or our life, it was her.


The words have to be backed up by actions.

And a lot of women will repress their own hurt if they think it will drive their man away. She may not be strong enough to risk losing you by being transparent.

Or she may be the dominant in the relationship, and truly not see you as having any responsibility at all.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

jld said:


> The words have to be backed up by actions.
> 
> And a lot of women will repress their own hurt if they think it will drive their man away. She may not be strong enough to risk losing you by being transparent.
> 
> Or she may be the dominant in the relationship, and truly not see you as having any responsibility at all.


Yet my wife isn't saying any of this to the MC or her IC. I think you're off base, possibly projecting your own situation into the issue. She's definitely the wife in the relationship. I'm a Marine vet. Every house can have only 1 king. I'm the king, she is the queen. If anything I fell for that modern western culture bullsh*t of being too sensitive. The effeminization of men in the west is a huge contributor to the skyrocketing divorce rate. Men aren't being men. Sure honey, you can have other male friends. I trust you implicitly. Go ahead and have private chats with him or go out for coffee. Ha!!!


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> She's entitled to anger, rage, vitriol, etc. Her ex isn't. My recovering WS isn't. They forfeit that right like the rights convicted felons forfeit. *They can feel it if they want but they better not express it to those they've betrayed.*






jld said:


> Just based on this, I would say your wife would be wise to seek a divorce.
> 
> *True, heartfelt reconciliation will not work without transparency* and humility on both sides.


This is the very point that I've been trying to make since my first post on this thread. First KK said that WS's weren't _entitled_ to feel anger. To which I responded that emotions are not entitlements that can be granted or denied. Emotions are simply how a person feels. Demanding, whether stated or implied, that someone must suppress their emotions in order to achieve a desired result, is forcing them into a position of not feeling safe or even being allowed to be transparent. I have no idea how a genuine R can occur without total transparency. 

It was during some of the most difficult and painful conversations with B1, where we both laid ourselves bare, before one another, that our deep bond, and our true, heartfelt, emotional intimacy began to grow in leaps and bounds. 

This kind of transparency is the total opposite of rug-sweeping. (Which is what KK and vellocet continue to insist that B1 and I are doing.) Instead, it is a thorough, deep cleansing. Because of TAM, I did attempt, for the first few months of R, to suppress my anger. B1 didn't insist on it, but many of the more vocal TAMers did. All that accomplished was causing about 4 more months of unnecessary anguish for both of us. 

We had both begun to feel the genuine desire to R, and we were definitely falling in love, again. B1 was expressing all of his feelings, the hurt, the shock, the anger, etc., and I was there for him, validating and comforting him, every step of the way. Yet, there was still an anger inside of me, that I had been suppressing because I didn't feel like my pain, from all of the suffering that I had endured, because of his actions, pre-A, was being validated. And, it made it hard, impossible, in fact, for me to honestly say (and, I would not say it until I could say it honestly, because neither of us were willing to return to our old, dysfunctional marriage) "I'm sorry," without it being followed by a "but. Because, I needed to count, too. 

I had spent the last several years of our marriage, simply not counting, and I couldn't endure that again. Still, I tried to suppress my anger for the first few months because I was told, by TAM, that I wasn't entitled to be angry. But, sometimes, I couldn't bear it, anymore, and I would have these angry outbursts that only succeeded in hurting B1. Then, I would feel even more guilt and shame, because I knew what I had done was so terribly wrong, and now that I was falling back in love with him, seeing him in pain was almost unbearable to me. Especially, knowing that I had caused his suffering. So, I was eagerly doing everything I possibly could to meet his needs, just like I had done for so long, Pre-A. But, because my pain had yet to be validated, I could not give him a true, heartfelt, "I'm sorry," without feeling the need to explain myself. I was genuinely sorry, but I needed to be counted, as a person, with feelings, rights, entitlements, and needs, too. 

B1 was not intentionally not validating me. I was simply not being completely honest/transparent. About 4 months into our R, I just started crying and couldn't stop, it went on for a whole a week. That Friday night, my very strong, confident husband, sat me down and said to me, "It's okay, you can tell me how you feel, I know that I hurt you, too." I said, "B1, if I tell you how I feel/felt, I might hate you." He said, "It's okay, you can hate me as long as you need to, I can take it, I know I deserve it." I unleashed all of my pent up anger, rage, and venom; years worth of it. Then, when I was completely spent, he held me his arms, while I cried and he apologized to me, for my pain. The pain that he caused. This is what Gus meant by trying to understand. Understanding _is _ very different than justifying. 

The next morning, my anger was completely gone, and it has never returned. That is when our true R really began. B1 understood that I was not only entitled to feel my feelings, but to express them, and to have them validated, as well. 

TAMers like KK and vellocet seem to think that B1 is a rug sweeping, doormat, and that we're in a false R. I think that B1 is a rock. I cannot tell you how loved, cherished, adored, and protected he makes me feel. In return, I respect, adore, cherish, desire, and love him, and I'm not ashamed to say that I pretty much worship the ground my man walks on. But, certainly not because he demands it. But, because he's earned it. And, I will spend the rest of my life loving him with every ounce of my being and making sure that he never regrets choosing to R with me. That's how our R works. If anyone wants to insist that's a false R, it has no bearing on our life, because B1 and I are convinced that we're deliriously in love. And, I pretty sure, that's all that matters!


----------



## Daniel. (Jan 14, 2015)

jld said:


> She made her own choices. But a dominant male is not going to sit around in self pity. He is going to own his part in what happened, however small he thinks it is.
> 
> It is called empowerment, Gus. It is the opposite of sitting in the victim chair.


You're mixing the marital problem (if there's any) and the affair. How is it possible that he owned a part in something that he didn't know happening and he had no control of ? He may had part in the marital problem (as i've read there were none, just her problem with midlife) but it was 100% on her to went on with her affair. She could've went to counseling or talk to him or find other outlet of excitement or divorce but instead she, on her own without consulting her husband chose affair.

BS is victim of WS selfish choice, there's no changing that. People who says BS owns part in WS's affair probably thinks that rape victim owns part in their rape too, or that people who get mugged owns part in what happened.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, you're the greatest and we all love to hear about your story on every thread. You're an inspiration to us all and we look forward to more cute pictures of you. Thanks for all your help.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Yet my wife isn't saying any of this to the MC or her IC. I think you're off base, possibly projecting your own situation into the issue. She's definitely the wife in the relationship. I'm a Marine vet. Every house can have only 1 king. I'm the king, she is the queen. If anything I fell for that modern western culture bullsh*t of being too sensitive. The effeminization of men in the west is a huge contributor to the skyrocketing divorce rate. Men aren't being men. Sure honey, you can have other male friends. I trust you implicitly. Go ahead and have private chats with him or go out for coffee. Ha!!!


If you are getting upset, we don't have to discuss it anymore. I realize this is a sensitive issue.

Women on this very board have said that they let their husbands believe they are the leader in the relationship just to avoid conflict. But if they do not truly respect the man, and genuinely believe in his leadership, then the man may never know the truth. His ego may protect him from even looking.

And if a man _does_ have his wife's genuine trust, it is always because he has earned it.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

jld said:


> If you are getting upset, we don't have to discuss it anymore. I realize this is a sensitive issue.
> 
> Women on this very board have said that they let their husbands believe they are the leader in the relationship just to avoid conflict. But if they do not truly respect the man, and genuinely believe in his leadership, then the man may never know the truth. His ego may protect him from even looking.
> 
> And if a man _does_ have his wife's genuine trust, it is always because he has earned it.


I'm just saying that we have laid all our cards on the table. Bared our souls and she isn't saying any of these things. They don't apply. There's no set of circumstances written in stone that apply to all situations. We've learned, however, that a lot of MC's must think there are.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> I'm just saying that we have laid all our cards on the table. Bared our souls and she isn't saying any of these things. They don't apply. There's no set of circumstances written in stone that apply to all situations. We've learned, however, that a lot of MC's must think there are.


That may be true. And there may be things the MC sees that neither of you do. Hard to tell.

And your wife may be the emotional dominant in the marriage. That can be hard for a man to see, but it is sometimes the case.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

jld said:


> That may be true. And there may be things the MC sees that neither of you do. Hard to tell.
> 
> And your wife may be the emotional dominant in the marriage. That can be hard for a man to see, but it is sometimes the case.


That last part couldn't be further from the truth. I've been the rock through every one of life's sh!tty events. Add this current one to the list.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EI said:


> B1 was not intentionally not validating me. I was simply not being completely honest/transparent. About 4 months into our R, I just started crying and couldn't stop, it went on for a whole a week. *That Friday night, my very strong, confident husband, sat me down and said to me, "It's okay, you can tell me how you feel, I know that I hurt you, too." I said, "B1, if I tell you how I feel/felt, I might hate you." He said, "It's okay, you can hate me as long as you need to, I can take it, I know I deserve it." I unleashed all of my pent up anger, rage, and venom; years worth of it. Then, when I was completely spent, he held me his arms, while I cried and he apologized to me, for my pain. The pain that he caused. *


That is the way of the Dominant Male. 

Well done, B1.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> That last part couldn't be further from the truth. I've been the rock through every one of life's sh!tty events. Add this current one to the list.


Agree to disagree. Good day!


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

jld said:


> That is the way of the Dominant Male.
> 
> Well done, B1.


What if the BS hadn't done any of these things wrong?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

jld said:


> Agree to disagree. Good day!


I believe you're a man-hater. To offer better advice in the future please don't project your own issues onto others especially when they don't apply. Good day to you too.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Yes, you're the greatest and we all love to hear about your story on every thread. You're an inspiration to us all and we look forward to more cute pictures of you. Thanks for all your help.


You know that you're free to skip my posts or put me on ignore if they disturb you so much. 

Oh, and flattery will get you nowhere! 

The saddest part of all is that I really have been trying to help you. I have never once suggested that your wife had _any_ reason to be be angry with you. I tend to take people's stories at face value. If you, or anyone, says that they were a good spouse, I believe them. So, my point hasn't been so much about anger, for anger's sake, but about the importance of total transparency. For some people that might include anger. 

Why you choose to continue to be rude to me is a mystery to me. But, I do know that it speaks of your character, and not mine. I truly wish you luck. I think you're gonna need it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> What if the BS hadn't done any of these things wrong?


My thoughts?

1) He might not be able to see his faults. (Note: We all have some.)

2) He may be the submissive in the relationship, and according to their arrangement, truly not hold responsibility for how things go.

From jld, who practically worships at the feet of her husband


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> What if the BS hadn't done any of these things wrong?


Agree! EIs situation was far different and extreme than almost every other case of female infidelity I have read or counseled.

Night and day to KKs. jld might have had good advice for B1, but extremely bad for most other BHs.

Women are just as capable of becoming selfish and horrible people as men.

KKs wife decided being a shytty person looked good. She ate evil betrayal and loved it. She didn't like the after effects and not riding off into the sunset with her POS. She was evil.

Maybe she isn't anymore. I hope not for her own sake and the sake of her family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> You know that you're free to skip my posts or put me on ignore if they disturb you so much.
> 
> Oh, and flattery will get you nowhere!
> 
> ...


Thank you for at least understanding that my story is mine and not yours. I didn't abuse my wife. I didn't neglect my wife. I never disrespected my wife. I was a good husband and father and we had a wonderful life. She hit middle age and freaked out. She freaked out over her career, over her motherhood, over her marriage. She had a full-on 5 alarm midlife crisis. I talked with her about it all the time. Want a new career? Go back to school, I'll support you. Want to start your own business? Go for it, I'll support you. You don't want to be a wife or mother anymore? Ok, if that's it then lets work through a divorce, I'll support you. When everyone found out what was going on her old friends contacted her and said are you crazy, you just blew it with one of the good ones. One even told her that she was going to contact me after a suitable mourning period if we get divorced because she knew what kind of guy I was and that's what she wanted.

Sometimes these things do actually belong to one person. That was my case. It made me feel helpless because I hadn't done anything wrong. How can I fix it if I didn't do anything wrong? Thoughout the whole thing she has said to me, to her IC, to our MC that she had a perfect life and screwed it up.

With that said if you think I'm going to put up with the utter nonsense that the other poster was trying to project onto me then you have another thing comin'. None of it applied. None of it. I was always the man that you yourself said you needed your husband to be and I still am that man.

Friendly advice to you, now that you think it's all behind you, you do tend to come off a little smug. Others see it. That last part you could have left off. That kind of crap rubs people the wrong way. You want to talk about character? I'm not a cheater, you are. Doesn't that also speak to character? Remember that no matter what happened it was you 100% that violated the vow you took before your God. You did that. Smugness doesn't help.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Agree! EIs situation was far different and extreme than almost every other case of female infidelity I have read or counseled.
> 
> Night and day to KKs. jld might have had good advice for B1, but extremely bad for most other BHs.
> 
> ...


Great synopsis of the situation.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> Just based on this, I would say your wife would be wise to seek a divorce.
> 
> True, heartfelt reconciliation will not work without transparency and humility on both sides.


Oh trust me, Kev has already been humiliated. Not sure what he needs humility for. What does he need it for JLD?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Great synopsis of the situation.


Take care bro. Take a little break from TAM now and then as well. I think everyone should occasionally to clear up.

Glad your R is moving along and glad to hear your daughter is enjoying small conversations with her mom now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> She made her own choices.


I think we're all agreed there.



jld said:


> But a dominant male is not going to sit around in self pity.


Assigning responsibility where it's due has nothing to do w/ self-pity. Quiet the opposite, actually.



jld said:


> He is going to own his part in what happened, however small he thinks it is.


Sooo... IOW, because Kev wasn't "dominant" enough to -- either passively or actively -- keep his wife from straying, he should accept _all_ responsibility for her decision to do so? And even though, per any _reasonable_ understanding of the transcript that he's provided of the ongoing dialogue between himself, his wife, and their MC, his wife is actively rejecting this notion...?



jld said:


> It is called _empowerment, _Gus. It is the opposite of sitting in the _victim chair._


Please. What you're doing is called blame-shifting.

And, were the genders reversed, you'd be singing a very different tune.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Thank you for at least understanding that my story is mine and not yours. I didn't abuse my wife. I didn't neglect my wife. I never disrespected my wife. I was a good husband and father and we had a wonderful life. She hit middle age and freaked out. She freaked out over her career, over her motherhood, over her marriage. She had a full-on 5 alarm midlife crisis. I talked with her about it all the time. Want a new career? Go back to school, I'll support you. Want to start your own business? Go for it, I'll support you. You don't want to be a wife or mother anymore? Ok, if that's it then lets work through a divorce, I'll support you. When everyone found out what was going on her old friends contacted her and said are you crazy, you just blew it with one of the good ones. One even told her that she was going to contact me after a suitable mourning period if we get divorced because she knew what kind of guy I was and that's what she wanted.
> 
> Sometimes these things do actually belong to one person. That was my case. It made me feel helpless because I hadn't done anything wrong. How can I fix it if I didn't do anything wrong? Thoughout the whole thing she has said to me, to her IC, to our MC that she had a perfect life and screwed it up.
> 
> ...




I believe you. I always have. I try not to judge people on TAM, but instead to support them in the decisions that they make for themselves. You seem to have decided to attempt to R. Whether I, or anyone else, thinks that is the _right_ decision, makes no difference, whatsoever. Because, this is _your_ life. You need to do what you think is in the best interest of you, your daughter, and if R is what you desire, then your wife, as well. If you want to R, then I will offer to share what has worked for B1 and me in our reconciliation.

Unlike, many here, I don't think that all cheaters are the same, that all BS's are the same, or that all marriages are the same. I do believe that the facts matter when choosing whether to attempt R. But, I do know that all infidelity, no matter the circumstances, causes immeasureable heartbreak and devastation. I'd like to see people heal, whether they reconcile or not. Any words of wisdom that I share will come from my personal experience, what has or has not worked for B1 and me. Honestly, I have been nothing but kind to you, except in post # 72. I'd had enough of your condescending attitude towards me, and I think you know you were being condescending. Just because you, and certain others, don't see my humility, doesn't mean that my husband does not. I don't owe anyone else my humility. 

I hope you receive this in the spirit in which I am trying to convey it. You be nice to me and I'll be nice to you. It's up to you. And, FWIW, I do wish you well.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> I believe you. I always have. I try not to judge people on TAM, but instead to support them in the decisions that they make for themselves. You seem to have decided to attempt to R. Whether I, or anyone else, thinks that is the _right_ decision, makes no difference, whatsoever. Because, this is _your_ life. You need to do what you think is in the best interest of you, your daughter, and if R is what you desire, then your wife, as well. If you want to R, then I will offer to share what has worked for B1 and me in our reconciliation.
> 
> Unlike, many here, I don't think that all cheaters are the same, that all BS's are the same, or that all marriages are the same. I do believe that the facts matter when choosing whether to attempt R. But, I do know that all infidelity, no matter the circumstances, causes immeasureable heartbreak and devastation. I'd like to see people heal, whether they reconcile or not. Any words of wisdom that I share will come from my personal experience, what has or has not worked for B1 and me. Honestly, I have been nothing but kind to you, except in post # 72. I'd had enough of your condescending attitude towards me, and I think you know you were being condescending. Just because you, and certain others, don't see my humility, doesn't mean that my husband does not. I don't owe anyone else my humility.
> 
> I hope you receive this in the spirit in which I am trying to convey it. You be nice to me and I'll be nice to you. It's up to you. And, FWIW, I do wish you well.



That is a much better post. You didn't end it by insulting me by questioning my character. Believe it or not it's not always the man's fault. I think you can understand that. The other lady that chimed in never will. I reviewed her other posts. She's left a trail of man-hating all over TAM. I'd advise anyone in a delicate and vulnerable situation to steer clear of anything she says. Her perspective is completely biased against men. Every single thread she has posted on she blames the man when he cheats and blames the man when the wife cheats. I'd never exchanged posts with her before today but she's a destructive influence on TAM. I don't think you are. You do have to respect, however, that your situation was absolutely nothing like mine. I was already the guy that you described you wanted.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> Friendly advice to you, now that you think it's all behind you, you do tend to come off a little smug. Others see it. That last part you could have left off. That kind of crap rubs people the wrong way. You want to talk about character? I'm not a cheater, you are. Doesn't that also speak to character? Remember that no matter what happened it was you 100% that violated the vow you took before your God. You did that. Smugness doesn't help.



I don't think it's all behind us. I don't think it will _ever_ be _all_ behind us. Something as big as infidelity will never just disappear. It has become a permanent part of our history. So, I try to use it as a reminder, every day, to strive to be the best wife I can be, the best mom I can be, and the best individual that I can be. I don't always hit the mark, but I do keep trying. 

As far as me being smug, why don't you go back and read your responses to me and others. 'All cheaters are vile, all cheaters are scum, they're not entitled to anger, they must forfeit their rights to....., etc., etc.' That's quite demoralizing. And, yes, I know that the words of strangers, no matter how cruel they may seem, can't possibly begin to compare to how demoralizing being cheated on must feel. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but it is a bit hypocritical to say that, all while you're planning to attempt R with your own cheater. But, because it's _your_ WS, your cheater, you now you feel protective of her. I cheated during a 15 month period of my life, but I am also someone's wife and someone's mother. My family doesn't deserve a wife and mother who feels demoralized and beaten down. They need and deserve a strong, confident, emotionally healthy, self-assured wife and mom. I'm doing my work, and I'll continue working on myself for the rest of my life. I can't allow others to bring me down, because if it has a negative effect on my emotional well-being, it effects my ability to be strong for my family. And, they deserve the best me that I can possibly give them.

B1 and I have been at this for almost 3 years, but when a newly betrayed BS comes to TAM and I share my story, it's all new to them, and sometimes, it triggers the Hell out of them. Although, that's never my intention. Often, in their pain and rage, they feel entitled to project their anger onto me. Just as my unhappy marriage did not make me entitled to cheat, an angry BS is not entitled to project their anger at their own WS onto me. 

You're right, you weren't a cheater. Just like your fWS, I was. When my children were young and they had done something wrong, I would tell them that having done something wrong does not obligate them to continue doing it wrong. I did it, I own it, 100%. I'm not proud of it, but I can't undo it. And, yes, it speaks to my character. I believe that the way I am conducting my life now also speaks to my character.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> In other words, Kev, you have no one and nothing but yourself and your male genitalia to blame for your wife's "MLC" and/or affair. And, until you're able to humble yourself and lie prostrate before her, in full admittance of this, you don't deserve to have her in your life.
> 
> AYFKM?!?


I know we have been arguing (a lot), but thank fvcking god you caught that and called out.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

altawa said:


> I know we have been arguing (a lot), but thank fvcking god you caught that and called out.


I second that.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Please. What you're doing is called blame-shifting.
> 
> And, were the genders reversed, you'd be singing a very different tune.


Exactly right.

I also loved this little gender biased, men = bad, gem.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...ion/209898-had-enough-wife-4.html#post9767466



jld said:


> Based on what I've read, I would hesitate to recommend that a woman take back a cheating husband. I think there is much more hope for taking back a cheating wife, if he starts to meet her deepest emotional needs.


Man bad, don't take him back.

Woman did bad BECAUSE of man, needs to be forgiven and man needs to lick her toes clean and do as she wants.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That post wasn't about blame. It was about what to do AFTER it's all said and done, to allow you (anyone) to move forward in peace. Just as forgiveness isn't something you do for the sinner; it's what you do for yourself.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

vellocet said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> I also loved this little gender biased, men = bad, gem.
> 
> ...


What the actual F. 

Yeah, I am pretty sure I know where to file advice from that particular poster from this point on.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

vellocet said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> I also loved this little gender biased, men = bad, gem.
> 
> ...


I definitely know a man hater when I see one. Our MC started showing herself to be a man hater. My own wife was the one who pegged her as one and said we need to find another MC. Imagine that, the WW not wanting to stay with a man-hating MC. I told you she was worth a chance at R.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> I had spent the last several years of our marriage, simply not counting, and I couldn't endure that again. Still, I tried to suppress my anger for the first few months because I was told, by TAM, that I wasn't entitled to be angry.


As I said, you are self-entitled to feel how ever you want. Like you said, people feel what they feel.

But that doesn't mean anyone has to recognize it after what you did. If B1 did, gave in and let you vent, that's up to him and worked for him and what end he sought to accomplish.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> As I said, you are self-entitled to feel how ever you want. Like you said, people feel what they feel.
> 
> *But that doesn't mean anyone has to recognize it after what you did.* If B1 did, gave in and let you vent, that's up to him and worked for him and what end he sought to accomplish.


Well, if B1 truly wanted to reconcile (and it would seem that he did), then HE had to recognize it. After all, that EI chose to engage in an affair didn't -- and doesn't! -- erase, invalidate, or trivialize the fact that she'd spend years in an extremely sub-par and neglectful marriage... and all because B1 willfully inflicted all of that upon her. Nor should it have, at least not if B1 truly wanted to reconcile.

And if you truly feel that it did, does, should have, etc... then it's clear that you're not cut out for reconciliation. Well, that and the fact that you ultimately chose not to reconcile w/ your ex.

I mean... aren't the BS and WS, having mutually opted for a *TRUE* reconciliation, supposed to address both the affair AND the pre-affair state of the marriage? Don't we preach that here...?!?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

turnera said:


> That post wasn't about blame. It was about what to do AFTER it's all said and done, to allow you (anyone) to move forward in peace. Just as forgiveness isn't something you do for the sinner; it's what you do for yourself.


Ehhh... I could buy that if not for her follow-up replies.

Oh... and damn near everything else that she's ever posted in a thread involving a WW.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Ehhh... I could buy that if not for her follow-up replies.
> 
> Oh... and damn near everything else that she's ever posted in a thread involving a WW.


Something that, as a newbie, I didn't know. After our exchange I clicked on her ID and read about 100 of her prior posts. She's a bonafide man-hater. That's plain to see. I wouldn't have bothered with her if I had known. Won't make that mistake again.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally* Posted by EI *
> I had spent the last several years of our marriage, simply not counting, and I couldn't endure that again. Still, I tried to suppress my anger for the first few months because I was told, by TAM, that I wasn't entitled to be angry.
> 
> *Velocet*
> ...


Of all the people on TAM I admire B1 more than anyone else ! However, someone needed to be angry at B1 for his many years of devastating neglect and rejection of EI. I do not blame EI one bit for her anger. B1 needed to be jolted out of his abuse of his wife and who knows him better than EI? No One.
Now do not come back with that Shyt that I am condoning EI’s adultery; that is getting old. I am a BS and I know the intense pain of betrayal.

B1 is a very unique and a great example on how to handle infidelity but he treated his wife like shyt for many years during pre-A! All of you that love to tell how you would never do what EI did; well I just do not buy it. Maybe some of you would not but I think that those do not go around bragging how they would never do what EI did. All of you so called saints, if you would not do something like EI did under her circumstances, you would do some other sin.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Mr Blunt said:


> Of all the people on TAM I admire B1 more than anyone else ! However, someone needed to be angry at B1 for his many years of devastating neglect and rejection of EI. I do not blame EI one bit for her anger. B1 needed to be jolted out of his abuse of his wife and who knows him better than EI? No One.
> Now do not come back with that Shyt that I am condoning EI’s adultery; that is getting old. I am a BS and I know the intense pain of betrayal.
> 
> B1 is a very unique and a great example on how to handle infidelity but he treated his wife like shyt for many years during pre-A! All of you that love to tell how you would never do what EI did; well I just do not buy it. Maybe some of you would not but I think that those do not go around bragging how they would never do what EI did. All of you so called saints, if you would not do something like EI did under her circumstances, you would do some other sin.


What abuse......


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> What abuse......


Did you read B1's posts? 
Read B1's posts


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

GusPolinski said:


> Ehhh... I could buy that if not for her follow-up replies.
> 
> Oh... and damn near everything else that she's ever posted in a thread involving a WW.


Notwithstanding, I agree with the point of the post.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Mr Blunt said:


> Did you read B1's posts?
> Read B1's posts


Give me the cliffs notes or a link. Was it anything like :



> Imagine a person whose spouse drinks him or herself into a stupor 2-3 times per month, after which he or she spends hours emotionally, verbally, and/or physically abusing his or her spouse. Then imagine that the abused spouse, seeking comfort, solace, and a safe haven, winds up in the arms of another man/woman.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Well, if B1 truly wanted to reconcile (and it would seem that he did), then HE had to recognize it.


I agree. Hence my comment.




> After all, that EI chose to engage in an affair didn't -- and doesn't! -- erase, invalidate, or trivialize the fact that she'd spend years in an extremely sub-par and neglectful marriage... and all because B1 willfully inflicted all of that upon her. Nor should it have, at least not if B1 truly wanted to reconcile.
> 
> And if you truly feel that it did, does, should have, etc... then it's clear that you're not cut out for reconciliation.


Your right, I'm not, never will be. If there are issues, and I am to work on them, they need to be brought to my attention and I will do what I need to do(all a moot point for me these days now).

But once cheated on, sorry, I am not interested at that point. If a partner is angry at me and are justified in that anger, then lay it on me! I will take it to heart. 

But once they cheated, sorry, not interested. There's the door.

You said "willfully"? I remember when I asked B1 about his treatment of EI, I didn't want to believe that "low testosterone" could cause someone to treat someone in a particular way, much less lashing out with profanity.
B1 assured me that it does. Therefore, to me, that isn't "willfully". That was brought about by a medical condition through no fault of his own. Not that it excuses anything, but I don't think it was exactly "willfull"




> I mean... aren't the BS and WS, having mutually opted for a *TRUE* reconciliation, supposed to address both the affair AND the pre-affair state of the marriage? Don't we preach that here...?!?


You are exactly right. But from the get go, it has always been about the pre-affair. That's all I ever hear. What B1 did.

So you'll have to excuse me when any WS, who went out and did the deed with someone other than their spouse, comes in here and focuses on their anger prior to their sexual romp


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> All of you that love to tell how you would never do what EI did; well I just do not buy it. Maybe some of you would not but I think that those do not go around bragging how they would never do what EI did. All of you so called saints, if you would not do something like EI did under her circumstances, you would do some other sin.
> [/COLOR]


I really don't care what you would buy. Want to call me a so-called saint because I never cheated, and I know I never will, have at it. I lived under severe neglect of my x-wife. I didn't cheat. Sorry, that's the truth. But again, you aint buyin' it.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> You said "willfully"? I remember when I asked B1 about his treatment of EI, I didn't want to believe that "low testosterone" could cause someone to treat someone in a particular way, much less lashing out with profanity.
> 
> B1 assured me that it does. Therefore, to me, that isn't "willfully". That was brought about by a medical condition through no fault of his own. Not that it excuses anything, but I don't think it was exactly "willfull"


Well, except that...

(a) He'd known about his condition for some time.
(b) He knew that it was taking a toll on not only his overall health, but his marriage as well. 
(c) He knew that it could be treated w/ medication.
(d) Though he'd previously agreed to treatment, _he reneged on that decision and then *refused* further treatment_.



vellocet said:


> You are exactly right. But from the get go, it has always been about the pre-affair. That's all I ever hear. What B1 did.
> 
> So you'll have to excuse me when any WS, who went out and did the deed with someone other than their spouse, comes in here and focuses on their anger prior to their sexual romp


Look, the bottom line is this -- if B1 had any reasonable expectation w/ respect to EI re-committing herself to him and to their marriage, he had to commit to addressing everything that he'd done to prompt her to want to leave it in the first place. Regardless of what she'd done, if he'd been unwilling to make any changes in himself, what incentive would she have had to re-commit?

Likewise, if EI had any reasonable expectation w/ respect to B1 re-committing himself to her and to their marriage, she had to commit to (a) _immediately_ and _*permanently*_ ending her affair (IIRC, she and OM were "on break" at the time), as well as (b) helping him to overcome and push through all of the hurt and anger brought about by her betrayal. Regardless of what he'd done, if she'd been unwilling to do these things, what incentive would he have had to re-commit?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Look, the bottom line is this -- if B1 had any reasonable expectation w/ respect to EI re-committing herself to him and to their marriage, he had to commit to addressing everything that he'd done to prompt her to want to leave it in the first place. Regardless of what she'd done, if he'd been unwilling to make any changes in himself, what incentive would she have had to re-commit?
> 
> Likewise, if EI had any reasonable expectation w/ respect to B1 re-committing himself to her and to their marriage, she had to commit to (a) _immediately_ and _*permanently*_ ending her affair (IIRC, she and OM were "on break" at the time), as well as (b) helping him to overcome and push through all of the hurt and anger brought about by her betrayal. Regardless of what he'd done, if she'd been unwilling to do these things, what incentive would he have had to re-commit?


I don't disagree with anything you just said.

Except that if it were me, I wouldn't take too kindly to a wife that would sit and vent anger at me after she had just f'd someone else, and had 2 other ddays after we were supposed to be working things out. That's just me.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Altawa
> 
> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> Did you read B1's posts?
> ...



If you click on B1 you then “more posts by B1” you can see all posts by B1 in chronological order. I have done a bit of research for you and below is the link to both of B1’s threads. In addition, I have found a few posts by B1 where he talks about his abuse. There is a lot more but I cannot remember what dates he posted them. What is below will give you an idea of the abuse that went on for YEARS! If you want more proof you can read B1’s threads.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/48667-wifes-affair-how-move-forward.html

by B1 8-7-2012
I will say it again, our marriage now is better then it was before the affair. Who else would know this better than me? I would not be in this marriage if it were worse, or the same...I wouldn't be in it if it were just a little better because what we had pre-affair was a complete and utter train wreck. We already discussed divorce and told the kids, her wedding rings were off and we were sleeping in seperate rooms for over a year. She told me she wasn't in love anymore, she told me she would find passion elsewhere. There was No cuddeling, no sex, no holding hands or talking except for kid stuff and finances, I mean except for a piece of paper saying so we had no marriage. You could not get any worse. The foundation had been ripped up and thrown away.

Our MC has even said we had the biggest disconnect he had ever seen in a married couple, even he thought it was over between us


By B1 7-8-2014
Re: Does any BS have 100% trust in their WS? 
________________________________________
Re-write history, yeah, I, the BS am re-writing history.

I never said it was justified, I am, like always, simply stating what happened in our situation. 

And....EI did ask for an in house separation, I said NO. She asked for a separation I said NO, like I said I wanted to be married, I just didn't want to be bothered with all the husband type duties that go along with being married, like talking, having sex, going places with her etc. 

Yes, I was a jerk, really an A$$ is what I call it. Basically I was saying, your stuck with me..I won't kiss you, hug you, make love to you or even really talk to you but I expect you to stay by my side until death do us part. That's what I truly expected. When she stopped nagging me for sex and she stopped talking I was very relieved and when she stopped sleeping in the bed I was really happy. 

It gets worse, you all are only seeing the tip of the iceberg here. 
There is more, lots more, lots of things I said and things that crushed her spirit. On more than one occasion, I told her she did not look good in her lingerie that she was trying to seduce me in. When she said she had needs, I cussed her out, literally had a raging fit complete with punching a running fan and blood flying everywhere, while she sat there in tears. She cried a lot then, alone and I knew it and it had no affect on me.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> All of you that love to tell how you would never do what EI did; well I just do not buy it. Maybe some of you would not but I think that those do not go around bragging how they would never do what EI did. All of you so called saints, if you would not do something like EI did under her circumstances, you would do some other sin.
> 
> By Vellocet
> I really don't care what you would buy. Want to call me a so-called saint because I never cheated, and I know I never will, have at it. I lived under severe neglect of my x-wife. I didn't cheat. Sorry, that's the truth. But again, you aint buyin' it.



Vellocet,

What I do not buy is someone that brags about not doing what EI did then fails to recognize that they have also done some very selfish things and hurt their loved ones also. When that happens it is very easy to be judgmental in the wrong way and that helps no one. There are WS posters that need to be called out because some focus on others and blame others not themselves. With those posters people like you will call them out. However, EI is NOT one of those. She has literally HUNDREDS of posts on TAM that tell you how she is 100% responsible for the affair. She has pointed out how she has failed her family miserably with the A . Perhaps B1s abuse needs to be put out there so that all can benefit from what to watch out for and what NOT to do. Yes, she is angry about that abuse and I would be also.

I know that you do not care about what I buy but I am going to post my opinion just like you do.

By Vellocet
You are exactly right. But from the get go, it has *always* been about the pre-affair. *That's all I ever hear. What B1 did.*

See Vellocet, for some reason you are so adamant about focusing on EI and how she is so wrong for talking about B1’s abuse pre-affair that you make a statement like above that can be verified as not true.

You yourself know that your statement of * “…it has always been about the pre-affair. That's all I ever hear", What B1 did”,* is not true. You and I are BS and we share that pain but when we see someone that is successful at R we can help them more by focusing on what they have done positive. B1 and EI have done a lot positive hence the almost 3 years of successful R.

Vellocet, you have never cheated and I believe you. Once your spouse cheats you are done with them and here comes the D. You have every right to do that and you are to be commended for not cheating.

I just do not understand why you see ALL of EI’s posts to be about B1’s abuse. *Have you concluded that EI’s is using B1’s abuse to justify her affair?* Do you see EI’s concern about B1’s abuse as something negative? EI was deeply hurt by that abuse and maybe she is posting some posts about that in order to vent or something else to help her with her R. *That could be a positive, right?
*




.


----------

