# Very confused; initiation, etc.



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

This is not new stuff here, but I don't think I've compiled all of it into one post before. Would love to hear from women especially, or others who are in a similar spot.

Quick background - been married about a year now, together for a bit over 5. Late 30's. Her, two kids from previous relationship, one pre-teen, one early teen. Both of us are employed, middle-class incomes. Normal amounts of stress. Get along well, etc. Her, type A personality at work, less so at home. Me, not type A, but not beta, either.

This is my second marriage, her first (though she's been common-law prior to me, so for all intents and purposes, we're both on our second marriages).

Since the age of 16, I've really been a LTR guy, just worked out that way. 3 year relationship from 16-19, one rebound right after for a few months, then I met my ex wife. With her from 19 to 33, and she was my 4th sexual partner, plus two other girls before her that I just fooled around with. My current wife is my 5th sexual partner.

Her: all over the map. Several LTR's since she was in her mid-teens, max of 3 years (with 3 different guys). LTR in high school, then did the bar scene/casual hookup thing for about a year in her early-20's, then did the LTR, casual NSA, short relationships cycle until she met me. Normal-ish stuff. In other words, neither of us were ever single/alone for long, but we both did it in different ways, I guess. I've had 5 partners

My relationships were always ended by the woman; hers were always ended by her. In other words, she's never been dumped, I've never dumped someone. Not sure if that's relevant, but there it is!

So, sex life: I've had 5 partners, plus 2 I've fooled around with. I'm not inexperienced, but I'm below average I guess. No idea how many she's had, but getting to know her over the years, as well as her friends, my best guess is 25-30 actual sex partners plus who knows how many she's fooled around with. (which I'm okay with, btw. It IS high for me, but it's a non-issue).

The issue: she has never initiated sex... properly. 99% of the time, it's me (of which about 80% I'd say is rejected). The 1% of the time she "initiates", it's along the lines of "let's have sex" or simply lying in bed naked.

We are at roughly 2-4 times per month, 4 being on the high side. For example, it has been twice in the past 4 calendar weeks, and she just started her time of the month the other day, so this week is a wash, too. By the time she will be done with that, we will likely be spending the weekend camping with our kids and some friends with kids, so that's a wash, too. As sex really only ever occurs on Friday or Saturday nights, the following week won't be happening. So if the stars align, the next time might be in 2 weeks, which will have made it a total of about 6 weeks and two times. That is not normal for us, but the norm isn't much better. Most Saturday nights are go-time, minus her time of the month. Saturday night is pretty much the only time I can expect to not be turned down.

We are not inordinately busy in life. The kids are self-sufficient enough that we don't have to babysit or entertain 24/7. Neither of us have abnormal amounts of stress at our jobs, or anywhere else, really.

The sex, when it occurs, is good to great. I am attentive and unselfish, and despite my relative lack of experience, I know what I'm doing. She has told me, without me asking, that she's never had sex this good in her life. She's intimated over the years that the vast majority of her previous partners were of the bumbling or selfish variety, and that she was lucky if she got off once, let alone the usual 3, 4 or 5 times with me. She's also never had a gspot (squirting) orgasm before me.

Her relatively high experience has obviously taught her some things. She is multi-orgasmic, and easy to get off. She can get off manually, orally, PIV, and even anally (which we rarely do, it doesn't excite either of us much). She owns several vibrators which she rarely, if ever, uses on her own, but are incorporated into our sex every now and again. She never owned sex toys before she was with me, and she did use them on her own when they were "new" but I'm guessing the novelty wore off, and they're likely 100% for use with both of us now. So it's not a case of her taking care of herself when I'm not around, that I'm sure of.

So, long (long!) story short, she is not the typical cold fish in the bedroom that so many LD spouses are. It's never a question of "get this over with". She's participatory and eager when it happens. She's not asexual in any way, shape or form. She thoroughly enjoys it when it happens, as do I. It just happens so rarely, especially considering that it's so good, and that's what I don't get.

We have had all the standard conversations and "talks" about it. She exhibits stereotypical LD spouse behavior. Doesn't want to talk about it at first, makes jokes, gets uncomfortable. Eventually enters into the discussion, acknowledges there's an issue, vows to make changes. MAYBE makes a point of half-heartedly initiating the next time (ie. asking me). Goes back to normal.

Things that don't add up to me: 

-She's said that she's NEVER thought about sex, ever. But has had 25-30 partners. I realize sex isn't always about sex, though, so this is probably legit and I don't disbelieve her.

- Along the same lines, has said that she's never felt "horny" before, ever. Never felt the need to have sex from any sort of trigger (visual, emotional, etc.) In other words, does not get turned on, until the actual act. This I also believe, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I know there are people who don't equate sexual things with the need to have sex. She most definitely needs to be in the act before she starts wanting it. Fine. Annoying, but fine.

- I've noticed over the years that alcohol seems to make a huge impact on her sexuality. The more she drinks, the more she's likely to 180 and start being more aggressive with me. She realizes this, also, so she purposefully (I think) curbs her alcohol intake during the rare time we're at, or having a party/gathering/etc. where everybody else is drinking. These situations pop up 4 or 5 times a year, max, and when everybody else is on their 5th drink she's still nursing her first. I made the mistake years ago, I think, of positively mentioning to her a day after too many drinks that she changed in that way, and that I liked it, and I think she was embarrassed. Since then, it's been exceedingly rare that she drinks to that level. But when she does/has, she expresses herself more in that regard. As I said, she spent about a year in her early 20's doing the bar scene thing and was "single", and I genuinely think that she equates that time in her life with being relatively promiscuous, which she doesn't like. And that it is now equated with alcohol.

- I've noticed that she looks at men occasionally, especially while we're driving and she's a passenger. In theory, this doesn't bother me, I'm not that type of guy. But when her head turns at a shirtless guy who's jogging, or a construction worker or roofer, or whatever, of course it bugs me, because it's eye candy for her. If somebody says they don't think about sex, or visual stimulation does nothing for them, then what's catching her eye?

Lastly, she never compliments me, other than occasionally saying I look nice when I dress up a bit. But it's usually just in passing, and in a completely non-sexual way. She's never commented on my body (which isn't that bad for my age). Even my cold-fish ex wife used to tell me my junk was the nicest she's ever seen, or that I have nice legs, or a cute butt or whatever. And my ex wife was the vanilla, charity sex type. I compliment her all the time, but not exceedingly so.

It's important to mention several things - my methods of initiating sex vary. Usually, I do it the "right" way, the way I've been taught that most women appreciate and respond to. I have always done my fair share of household duties, I spend quality time with the kids (who are not mine), I cook dinner, etc etc etc. I do these things because I can, and I should, NOT with an agenda in mind. I have never said to her "but I do all this stuff, so you should have sex with me". I also occasionally use her tactics, which is basically "let's go". And everything in between. There is no one method that has a higher success rate, so I'm not "doing it wrong". Or right, apparently. 

I am not a couch potato, I am not out of shape, lazy, fat, and I take care of my appearance. I have friends and social activities. We do not spend 24 hours a day together. I am not a beta male. I balance my/our time between being independent and being together. We spend quality time on our own, which each other, and with the kids. I do not pressure her for sex - the farthest I go with that is when I feel it is time to have another "talk" about the subject. That's it. I don't whine, complain or beg. Very occasionally, I will be visibly or verbally upset with her for turning me down - particularly when there's no real reason (that I can see) for doing so.

At this moment, we are not in a position to seek out counselling. She has not been adverse to the possibility, but the financial aspect of it is difficult. With all 4 of us in sports (some of them multi sport), as well as the usual daily household expenses, it's not terribly feasible. Something would have to give in order for us to spend a few hundred $$'s a month on this.

I don't know what to do. Most LD spouses, from what I can see here, don't follow this script. I don't think I'm alone, of course, but I have no clue what to think. I don't know what she wants...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It sounds like she is sexually repressed and also has a low drive.

You've been here for a while so you must know, the chances of this improving on it's own, or by you finding the right chain of events to prompt sex are slim to none. It won't change until she can talk about it, dissect it, be honest AND be open to doing things differently.

This is where your boundaries come in.

I am not willing to live a sexless life.
I am not willing to live with a partner who doesn't want me in a similar way the way I want her.

And leave the rest up to her. She either works it out and shows that she hears you by meeting your needs or she continues to play around with your feelings, by minimizing your needs and rationalizing her desire not to change.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
She has been like this for years yes? 

If you are willing to share this, I am interested in your relative height and weight differences. Not asking your height weight. Asking the difference between your heights and weights.

She looks at what she 'likes'. Those shirtless guys are more heavily muscled than you are yes?

The marital measure of alpha is this: The degree to which you are able to get your partner to meet your core needs. 

By that definition I would say your wife is doing pretty good. You, not so much. 

To be fair to her, I thought she was like this before you married her. Even prior to you getting engaged.





alexm said:


> This is not new stuff here, but I don't think I've compiled all of it into one post before. Would love to hear from women especially, or others who are in a similar spot.
> 
> Quick background - been married about a year now, together for a bit over 5. Late 30's. Her, two kids from previous relationship, one pre-teen, one early teen. Both of us are employed, middle-class incomes. Normal amounts of stress. Get along well, etc. Her, type A personality at work, less so at home. Me, not type A, but not beta, either.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> *The marital measure of alpha is this: The degree to which you are able to get your partner to meet your core needs*.


That is profound, MEM. That could be a signature.


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

jld said:


> That is profound, MEM. That could be a signature.


Although it does make Alpha sound rather manipulative
.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

soulseer said:


> Although it does make Alpha sound rather manipulative
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol. I did not think of it that way. I took it more as his "inspiring" her to meet his needs.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

alexm said:


> Her: all over the map. Several LTR's since she was in her mid-teens, max of 3 years (with 3 different guys). LTR in high school, then did the bar scene/casual hookup thing for about a year in her early-20's, then did the LTR, casual NSA, short relationships cycle until she met me. Normal-ish stuff. In other words, neither of us were ever single/alone for long, but we both did it in different ways, I guess. I've had 5 partners
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There was a long thread recently on a Madonna/Whuure "condition", where the wife is super conservative and prissy with her husband and family at home, but a Tasmanian devil with other men outside the marriage. I did not fully understand the psychology behind it, but maybe that is what you are encountering. Someone who used to be a lot more party-oriented, but she shuts it all down tight with you.

If so, maybe there is some way to convince her that its ok to be sexy/kinky with her husband too!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Does she have any history of abuse or rape? There are numerous red flags in what you wrote.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

murphy5 said:


> There was a long thread recently on a Madonna/Whuure "condition", where the wife is super conservative and prissy with her husband and family at home, but a Tasmanian devil with other men outside the marriage. I did not fully understand the psychology behind it, but maybe that is what you are encountering. Someone who used to be a lot more party-oriented, but she shuts it all down tight with you.
> 
> If so, maybe there is some way to convince her that its ok to be sexy/kinky with her husband too!


There might be no convincing, they get their thrill and pleasure from this "double" life. Having the husband as a stable provider who isn't as exciting is part of the thrill.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> It sounds like she is sexually repressed and also has a low drive.


*Yes, and yes. The LD thing, I get. The repressed thing is what I don't understand. In bed, she is anything BUT repressed. And given her sexual history (which doesn't bother me!) that doesn't scream "repressed", either. I wonder if I've MADE her repressed, or if her last LTR before me (there was, apparently, nobody else between him and I). I did mention here a while ago about how her ex was constantly accusing her of cheating, because there was little sex. Her MO for little sex in that relationship was because he was a 2 pump chump, for lack of a better term. Not interested in her needs. So she had no desire to have sex with him, therefore it slowed down. Then began the "you're cheating" accusations, and the "you must be getting it elsewhere" talk. Possible that could have turned her off sex?*



Anon Pink said:


> You've been here for a while so you must know, the chances of this improving on it's own, or by you finding the right chain of events to prompt sex are slim to none. It won't change until she can talk about it, dissect it, be honest AND be open to doing things differently.
> 
> This is where your boundaries come in.
> 
> ...


*Sadly, I know this. But what gives me hope is the quality of the sex when it happens. If it was plain vanilla charity sex, I would have been gone, regardless of how else I feel about her. I've been around the block before, and I'm too old to put up with stuff like that. She makes it difficult though, because it's DAMN good, lol!*


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> She has been like this for years yes?
> 
> If you are willing to share this, I am interested in your relative height and weight differences. Not asking your height weight. Asking the difference between your heights and weights.
> ...


Those are fair questions. Here is how I see ourselves:

We are the same height (I'm an inch taller) but I'm not 6'2", either.

I am average to muscular build, naturally. I have a nice body for somebody in their late 30's who doesn't hit the gym. She is overweight, but curvy (voluptuous is the word, I guess). She was 230lbs a few years back, but changed how she ate and took off 80. Let's put it this way - she gets an inordinate amount of attention from black men  (we're both Caucasian).

I would say we're both above average, looks-wise, but not 9s or 10's. We make a cute couple.

Yes, the men she looks at are younger and more toned than I am. They're the same type of men all women look at  I have no doubt she'd look at them even if I looked the same way they do.

I don't see any shortcomings (despite my relative lack of height, badoom-ching!) in terms of the looks/body department. I've met a few of her exes, and have heard descriptions of a few more, and she really doesn't appear to have a type. They've ranged from short, tall, fat, skinny, muscular, bald, etc. - all over the map. And importantly, as I've said, she's mentioned (on her own) that she's never had as good sex as she has with me, and that she's never been multi-orgasmic, etc. before me, among other things. So I apparently don't fail in the sex dept. either.

When we were dating, there was more sex. Not better sex, just more of it. Now there's more excuses.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Thor said:


> Does she have any history of abuse or rape? There are numerous red flags in what you wrote.


Nope, but I have to take her at her word for it. I've mentioned that to her before, and she's said no, nothing.

Though I do get the impression with one or two of her previous casual flings, she was not entirely comfortable once things got going, or afterwards. No details given (and none asked for).

Personally, I think she may have similar symptoms but not derived from abuse or rape. My guesstimate is that she's had enough experience to know that some men are not gentlemen once they get what they want, and perhaps she's had one or more poor experiences AFTER the fact, which have made her feel used.

Like I said, when we get right down to it, she's a beast in bed. I often wonder if she curbs it on purpose because it makes her feel like a bad girl, which she doesn't like to be thought of as.

That's primarily why I have hope with her. I get the impression that she probably, at some point in her life, drew a line in the sand which she tries hard not to cross, for fear of gaining a bad reputation (or gaining a bad reputation AGAIN). I think she originally purposefully repressed herself at some point when she was younger, and now it's second nature to her.

Some people who are a little more "free" than others are okay with it their whole lives. Some people have an epiphany of sorts at some point and decide they no longer want to be like that. And some people have a bad experience, or are embarrassed or stigmatized by something and turn over a new leaf, so to speak. I strongly suspect this from her, as she genuinely enjoys sex, knows what she's doing, doesn't hold back AT ALL, and is super-crazy-multi-orgasmic every time. Makes no sense why she wouldn't want it regularly. Hell, if I didn't know her and had a ONS with her, I'd think she was a nympho. But that could be exactly the problem... Perhaps several other men thought so, too, and she didn't particularly like that.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"The sex, when it occurs, is good to great. I am attentive and unselfish, and despite my relative lack of experience, I know what I'm doing. She has told me, without me asking, that she's never had sex this good in her life."

Congrats my friend! You are doing your job!

"She's intimated over the years that the vast majority of her previous partners were of the bumbling or selfish variety, and that she was lucky if she got off once"

No expert, but I'm guessing this is very common, as you would think that ONS and short term deals are more about gals and guys scoring than actually making love (which is almost always better sex).

" I've noticed over the years that alcohol seems to make a huge impact on her sexuality"

scientific fact, alcohol increases womens libido, has opposite effect on men. One of my ex's turned absolutely nuts horny after 3 beers.

Her behavior is a bit odd and confusing since good/great sex, but low libido.

You are in a pretty good situation, but that isn't to discount your bewilderment/confusion at all this.

I'm leaning towards what Thor alludes to like past sexual abuse, or because of so many partners, does she subconsiously associate sex with something bad or promiscuous?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
She likes you, maybe loves you, but isn't all that attracted to you. I get that you are very skilled in bed. And she likes that for sure. 

But she doesn't feel much baseline desire for you and worse lacks a strong desire to please you. 

If she had a strong desire to please you, she'd relax and let her responsive desire kick in. Part of your angst is that you DO love her and you DO have a strong desire to please her. 

True and timely story for you about the desire to please. 
-------
Early last night M2 had mentioned that we were going to connect later on. We had dinner at our friends house and got home a bit late. 

I haven't been lifting in months (tennis elbow), my T levels are low and I was feeling zero desire. 

When we got home I looked for any fatigue cues from M2. Didn't see any. Instead she gave me THAT smile. 

Rejection is a total no-go in our house. That doesn't mean that as the HD spouse we connect at my ideal frequency. We don't. We have some mid point compromise that is fair, and mutually kind and free of resentment. 

So - there I am feeling zero desire when I get THAT smile and I hug M2 and gently slide my hands to the top of her waist. 

I take a nice long shower, get in bed with a big smile and let the magic of responsive desire kick in. Afterwards I'm thinking:
- Damn that felt good 
- Double damn I feel really loving towards M2 right now
- Absolutely no question that this 'no rejection' deal is a wonderful part of our marriage. 

A2 is WAY TOO comfortable rejecting you. And you're WAY TOO busy meeting her needs instead of taking better care of yourself. 

From what I can tell, you're very comfortable telling her how you feel, and as yet unwilling to deprioritize her. 





alexm said:


> Those are fair questions. Here is how I see ourselves:
> 
> We are the same height (I'm an inch taller) but I'm not 6'2", either.
> 
> ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> She likes you, maybe loves you, but isn't all that attracted to you. I get that you are very skilled in bed. And she likes that for sure.
> 
> But she doesn't feel much baseline desire for you and worse lacks a strong desire to please you.
> ...


A2, I like that! (though my name isn't actually Alex, but I'll go with it)

I like the no rejection agreement, very cool. I'm thinking I should bring that up and see how it flies.

As for being too comfortable rejecting me - yep. Doesn't even bat an eyelash.

I am comfortable telling her how I feel, yes, but I have no problem with deprioritizing her. The amount of time and effort I spend on her, on us, on the kids and us, and on myself are all roughly equal. She does not get the bulk of the attention, and quite often I do things for, and by myself. But yes, it's out of whack, in terms of what she gives back, and not just in this area.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
A big chunk of your income goes into a pool that covers costs for her and her kids. If you factor in your total contribution to her life it's big. As it should be. 

Her contribution to your life - not so big. Her concern about upsetting you - minimal. 

In our house the rules of engagement are simple: if your spouse initiates you have two choices:
1. Yes
2. Let's connect tomorrow night 

But (2) is not some BS brush off. Tomorrow means tomorrow. Your schedules are not the issue. Her priorities are. 

-----
One last thing the rejection rule works - but it's got to be in the context of some frequency expectation. In theory I could initiate every night and that rule would ensure me sex at worst every other day. M2 doesn't want to have sex every other day. Twice a week works for us/her/me. 

So I don't use the rejection rule to force frequency. Just to make it easy to say no on any given night. 




alexm said:


> A2, I like that! (though my name isn't actually Alex, but I'll go with it)
> 
> I like the no rejection agreement, very cool. I'm thinking I should bring that up and see how it flies.
> 
> ...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

> At this moment, we are not in a position to seek out counselling. She has not been adverse to the possibility, but the financial aspect of it is difficult. *With all 4 of us in sports (some of them multi sport)*, as well as the usual daily household expenses, it's not terribly feasible. Something would have to give in order for us to spend a few hundred $$'s a month on this.


I'd say that's the problem right there. I'd question whether you and the missus are spending as much time together as you think you do. Or perhaps she's too tired with the activities for the kids. Is it common for your house to be the central location where the friends of your kids come to hang out?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

First, is it possible that her frequent sexual activity in her past was designed to get a guy and now that she has one she doesn't need to be sexual? Just a thought.

Also, do you have insurance that covers counseling? If you need to get rid of some sports/hobbies to afford it, I suggest you do. Which is more important?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,

She often isn't. Luckily a few key things are true:

1. A long time ago, she taught me how to get her in the mood when she starts out - not in the mood. This isn't actually all that difficult. It's mostly a matter of going slow. 

2. I've make this 'easier' for her by staying fit, coming to bed clean/fresh out of the shower, etc. 

3. I don't do stuff that turns her OFF outside the bedroom like grope her, make stupid sexual jokes, leer at her, basically - treat her like meat. I do give her full body hugs - which she loves. Gently touch her neck or waist when I walk by, but that isn't really sexual, it's just - nice. 

4. Lastly - we have a scary ability to read each other. So - next night or not - if I see angst or anything like claustrophobia (this is a rare thing - not even once a year) - then everything stops. 

--------
The 'norm' in a sexual relationship is this. 

Typically one person in the higher desire person for the length of the relationship. The other person might have short spurts of higher desire, but mainly their is one person who consistently wants more. 

The lower desire (LD) person often gradually feels less and less spontaneous desire over time. If that person adopts a mindset that sex only happens when they start out in the mood, then sex does become rare and typically it's a source of either anger or disconnect between the partners. 





Lila said:


> I'm new to TAM so please forgive me for asking a silly question but how exactly do "rejection rules" work? You mention requirement to punt intimacy until the next night/day but is there a requirement that she HAS to be in the mood "tomorrow"? What do you do if she's just not in the mood?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,
This is a important distinction and I want you to think about it.

It is 100% my responsibility to be a good/very good partner. Mostly I am. 

And it is 100% M2's responsibility to be a good partner to me. 

It is NOT my responsibility to 'get her in the mood'. 

I'm not splitting hairs - because this makes the difference between being married and being divorced. 

Part of being a good partner is contributing in a positive manner to the emotional landscape of the house. 
- Being kind, supportive and helping resolve conflicts (soothing)
- Being playful, maybe even physically so, and a bit random (stimulating)

The soothing involved touch, but it's explicitly NOT sexual. The play fighting/wrestling is about dopamine more than sex. 

Here's the key distinction: My job is limited to being a good/very good partner - including making it obvious I love M2. 

It's her job to manage her overall desire level and receptiveness to sex. 

For example: IMO 'dates' as part of a sexual routine - are nonsense. I do take M2 out, but I don't take her out because I believe that will get her 'in the mood'. 

If she expected/required me to take her out, in order to have sex with me - that would be a non starter. I take her out because I genuinely enjoy her company and we have fun. 

She often has sex with me because she wants to make me happy. I always make an effort to make it as pleasing an experience as possible for her. But the truth is - she doesn't lie about having an O, never has. And often she doesn't have an O. This is not about me. I am well versed in the female body and in all the basic techniques for pleasing a woman. 

At the beginning I made a huge leap of faith by vowing not to have sex with any other women - ever again. I trusted her to take care of me in the regard. 

*When you accept a vow of monogamy from a HD spouse, you take on an equally large responsibility for providing for their sexual well being. That doesn't mean feeling used. That does mean taking responsibility for arousing yourself or teaching them how to arouse you when you start out 'in neutral'. *

So: If your partner is doing stuff that turns you off, you are responsible for being brutally honest. If they are touching you in ways that feel bad - because you aren't turned on yet. Tell them. 

I've only had one marriage, so I can't honestly say whether we are the exception or the norm. 

M2 would say: Sex is a part of marriage. That doesn't mean you should tolerate 'bad sex'. Because you shouldn't. That does mean that you can't unilaterally set the pace just because your drive is lower than your spouses. 




QUOTE=Lila;9045130]Thanks Mem for the explanation. 

I'm happy to read that your "Requirement Rule" doesn't necessarily mean that sex will happen regardless of your wife's desire. Instead it requires her to be openly receptive to your seduction. [/QUOTE]


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Damn MEM, that should be a sticky! Sent to every newly married couple!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lila,
The other night I was in a very rare state. Completely neutral in terms of desire. I felt absolutely no desire. I haven't lifted in a couple months - tennis elbow. My Testosterone levels have fallen. 

M2 made it clear she wanted to connect. We had had a great day. 
I gave her a big smile took a shower and got in bed. Nature is powerful - and M2 is both hot and skillful. Ten minutes later I was hard. Fifteen minutes later - rock hard. 

Afterwards I thought:
- This 'no rejection thing is good - bidirectionally'
- I felt a huge surge of love for M2 
- I thought - next time I'll do the same exact thing 

Responsive desire works. But part of the reason it works for us is that there is no timing pressure. If she had gotten angry or aggressive about me not being instantly hard - that might have prevented me from getting there.

The same is true in reverse. I don't rush her. Why would I, I love touching her, lying together naked. If it takes a while for her to warm up - that's fine by me. I don't touch her in an explicitly sexual way until she is warmed up. Because she doesn't like it. So the warm up is not awkward/painful/unpleasant for her. It's - nice. She has my undivided attention and can tell I'm happy with the very gradual foreplay. 





Lila said:


> MEM, great food for thought and excellent discussion point for the OP! Question, how does it work when the LD partner is the husband? The male physiology is such that if there's no arousal, there's no "faking" it. :scratchhead:


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

All the looking at her background, analysing whether she's repressed and why she looks at other men sometimes is probably a waste of time. 

I'm pretty low drive. If left to myself I'd probably feel spontaneous desire about once a month. I used to be higher drive when I was younger, but things change for lots of reasons. 

I still look at shirtless men to admire them though. I just very rarely get a sexual charge from it. They look great but they don't make my biscuits tingle (tm Dollystanford). 

My husband and I have sex, at the moment, almost daily. This is because of a few things:

- I love him very much and I am very attracted to him
- he's awesome in bed
- I have a policy, on my own, of never rejecting. I also initiate regularly when I get the opportunity
- when my husband is happy he is completely delightful and makes life lots of fun. When he's not our house is not much fun. 
- I have a real need to be close and connected emotionally to him. That doesn't happen if we are not having sex
- I know, in my head, all the great things about sex, even if my body is not quite there. So I make a decision with my head, not my body

For whatever reason, your wife feels fine about rejecting you and doesn't care if you're satisfied with your sexual relationship. That's your problem, not how many partners she did or didn't have.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lyris...the fact that you are attracted to your H makes a difference, I think. One can be LD but "bring it on anyway"....when there is a real, strong attraction there.

If you were not attracted to your H, for whatever reason, even if you used to be, if he simply turned you off physically or emotionally or both...do you think you could still have enthusiastic sex with him based on love alone?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

No I don't. So yes, that should go in the bottom paragraph too. 

It's so complicated though. Attracted/not attracted. I am extra attracted to my husband around ovulation, but the baseline is always there and it seems to be primarily bound up in how he smells. Just something chemical. 

I wonder if it would stay even if he put on a lot of weight or something. He's in great shape, although he's not a big guy, and he works out most days. So it's not something I have to think about seriously. But still, interesting.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 often mentions that the muscular arms, shoulders, legs and firm tight ass make the whole touch thing hot. 

I've tried to figure out what's core and what are amplifiers to her. 

Core: 
- Short list of character traits: courage, adventurousness, intelligence, humor, kindness, patience, perceptiveness
- Handsomeness 

Amplifiers:
- Muscle
- Money

-------
M2 is a primitive. Lyris has referred to her as a high maintenance nightmare. But umm - faced with strength she is mostly fun and not so difficult. Faced with weakness, she quickly becomes a nightmare. 

She loves strength in all it's incarnations. And she has a visceral aversion to weakness of all types. 

------
M2 mainly feels the same way about me as Lyris does about L2.






Lyris said:


> No I don't. So yes, that should go in the bottom paragraph too.
> 
> It's so complicated though. Attracted/not attracted. I am extra attracted to my husband around ovulation, but the baseline is always there and it seems to be primarily bound up in how he smells. Just something chemical.
> 
> I wonder if it would stay even if he put on a lot of weight or something. He's in great shape, although he's not a big guy, and he works out most days. So it's not something I have to think about seriously. But still, interesting.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I just know that for me, real physical/sexual attraction has to be there or else I just can't go through with it. Love wouldn't make a difference to that. Well, I guess love will make me even MORE attracted...but I have to be able to see him walk into a room if he was a stranger and I'd still say "hmmm...._who's that?_" There has to be that much attraction for me to get turned on at all.

I have attempted having sex with people I liked but I wasn't base line attracted to them a couple of times. Couldn't even finish it.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I just said she SOUNDED LIKE a high maintenance nightmare MEM. 

Deep down I'm just a bit jealous. I wish my husband put as much energy and time into thinking about my thoughts and reactions and motivations as you do for M2.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
I wasn't insulted by that. It was an honest - and in some ways - very accurate observation. 

Some of this stuff is priceless. I travelled a lot for work. So our youngest was maybe 4 years old the first time I saw her pick something out of a vending machine. We were at a museum when she and M2 walk up to this vending machine. She stares at the options for a while and then points to the item she wants and says: M&Ms

M2 glances down at her and then looks back at the glass front of the machine. 

I'm quietly wondering what's happening. Because M2 isn't reaching for her wallet. She isn't doing anything. I look at our daughter who is now gazing fixedly at the innards of the machine and after about 30 seconds looks up at her Mom and says skittles. 

M2: you sure?
Daughter: yes

M2 purchases the item. Everyone is happy. FYI: Daughter was allowed to have M&Ms. 

As we are strolling along I say to M2: That turned out well, but it seemed a bit odd. 
M2: She has buyers remorse. If I had bought the M&Ms, right as the bag hit the dispensing slot, she would have said: oh no, I want skittles in the saddest little voice you ever heard. 
MEM: So is it always skittles
M2: Nope. It's just that it's something different than her first choice. 
MEM: what happens, she picks the same item twice in a row
M2: Hasn't happened yet
MEM: Hypothetically
M2: After asking her: 'are you sure'? I'd get her the item. 
MEM: And pray
M2: And pray
MEM: So buyers remorse is nature, not nurture. It's heritable, and it's a dominant (since I don't have it) gene. 
M2: Seems so

--------
Tonight we were looking at some patio furniture. M2 really liked it but then I saw a flicker of uncertainty cross her face. 
MEM: There's no rush. Why don't we check out a few more stores. 
M2: Smiling and then laughing: probably best

If you want a pitch perfect example of how we do this stuff watch the first episode of the tv show fargo. The police chief and his wife are expecting a baby, and she wants to paint the babies room. The scenes where they talk about that - well heck - I could have written that script in my sleep. 




Lyris said:


> I just said she SOUNDED LIKE a high maintenance nightmare MEM.
> 
> Deep down I'm just a bit jealous. I wish my husband put as much energy and time into thinking about my thoughts and reactions and motivations as you do for M2.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'd say that's the problem right there. I'd question whether you and the missus are spending as much time together as you think you do. Or perhaps she's too tired with the activities for the kids. Is it common for your house to be the central location where the friends of your kids come to hang out?


Well, I can say it likely is now, yes! But prior to these last couple of months, it was only me and the kids, each with one sport that took up no more than a few hours a week each. One of the kids has just started a second sport, and my wife has joined a woman's flag football team, so NOW we're busy!

But it's been like this when it hasn't been busy, or during the offseason(s) as well.

As for the central hangout location - not at all. The older kid is usually on his own on the computer or at a friend's house. The younger one is just about at the end of the "play date" age, so it's still all very organized for him, and he spends much of his time outside, either with the neighborhood kids or on his own. When he asks one of us to join him, we do 95% of the time.

In short, neither kid eats up a lot of our time as they're both extremely independent. We DO do stuff with them, of course, but we're not the kind of parents that spend 24/7 with the kids - and seriously, not because we don't want to. It's a good balance. The wife and I usually have 2-3 hours alone time per day, and we're lucky enough to get a solid couple of days per month where we're REALLY alone. (kids at sleepovers, or at the cottage with grandparents, etc. And THEY ask to go, or are invited. It's extremely rare we ask anybody to take the kids off our hands!)


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Chris Taylor said:


> First, is it possible that her frequent sexual activity in her past was designed to get a guy and now that she has one she doesn't need to be sexual? Just a thought.


Oh yeah, for sure, there's little doubt about that. Sadly, it's not atypical, as one can read about constantly here at TAM. Some call it the bait and switch, but I'm not a big fan of that term. That implies it's done on purpose, with forethought. I'm not so sure most women (or less likely, men) do this consciously.

On that note, I've learned over the years that my wife has never been as confident or independent as I originally thought. So using her God-given womanly sexuality to land a man makes sense.

I'll give you a quick example: She had broken up with her ex after being with him for about 3 years roughly 8 or 9 months before we got together. He was "the one" (she thought at the time) and they had a planned child together. Things went South in a hurry after he was born, and she left him for varying reasons, which was a good choice. But she was understandably upset it turned out that way. Not at losing HIM, but at thinking she had finally settled down for the long haul. *edited to add that, according to her, their sex life wasn't good. He was a 3-minute Charlie. Very little foreplay, in you go, done, roll over and go to bed. I'm sure it wasn't always like that, every time, but that's how he's remembered in that regard. He also didn't do much around the house, especially when she was pregnant, and things got worse in that regard afterwards. Baby would cry at 4am, he'd sleep through it. Apparently he never once got out of bed. Sex came to a standstill afterwards, because she was doing 99% of the work, as well as working an 8 hour day, making dinner, up with the baby all night, etc. With no sex, he started to accuse her of cheating (!!!). Things unravelled further, she left, that was that. Good choice.

So when we started dating, we got to know each other, all that. I told her about my ex wife, she told me about her ex, etc. She told me that after him and before I came along, she had "given up" and wasn't looking nor had been with anybody - she just wanted to be on her own, raise her kids, etc. Not worry about dating, and just get her life on track.

Some two years later, when we started living together, I inadvertently saw some old Facebook msgs of hers. We shared a computer (she's not too computer savvy). I wasn't snooping around, she just left her FB open, and the messages section was visible, where you can see the name of the person as well as the first sentence or two of the message. One caught my eye for whatever reason (I don't remember the visible part of the msg), but I opened it. It fell right into the dates between her ex and I, the supposed "not looking" time.

Long story short, I guess there was a FB app called "meet people" or something like that, which was more or less where you posted your profile (or a picture) and you could send msgs to people who caught your eye. The one I opened, and read, was full of sexual innuendo. Nothing graphic at all, but not at all how my wife talks, at least to me. Just casual talk between two people getting to know each other to see if they're compatible. But this guy said something like he liked to fish, so he tended to get up very early in the mornings. She said she liked to sleep in, so as long as he didn't wake her up, it was all good. He replied that he likes to "get something" in the mornings, to which she replied that she could be woken up for that, because she likes the mornings, too.

Well, I'm reading that, first of all feeling guilty, but hey, she left it up, and I'm thinking "this kind of goes against how she told me she was focusing on herself and not looking to date". And FWIW, there were several other back-and-forths with other guys through the same FB app, but all very tame, with very little sexual overtones.

All of these conversations (there were 5 or 6 that I found) ended abruptly. One person just stopped talking with the other. Actually, in all cases, she had sent the last message and got no reply back. Only once did she send another one saying something like "hey, you never got back to me, where are you?" No phone numbers or emails seemed to be exchanged, and I didn't get the impression that she met any of them in real life. My guess is that those guys found somebody else to bang and gave up on her.

I held on to this information for over a year, because honestly, even though I wasn't initially snooping, I DID actually open the messages, which I know I should have. But she would have done the same, as would most of you, I imagine.

So a year later, I had an opening to bring this up. Something she said, probably in relation to a conversation we were having about our sex life. At first she was mad that I saw those, obviously. When I convinced her it was all innocuous at first, and also apologized for continuing to read, she addressed it. She said she never met any of them, was just looking for FB friends, etc. and was lonely. I asked her about that one message in particular, as she was hinting at sex. She had no real answer for me. At this point in our relationship, I knew how she felt about sex, more or less, that she didn't "need it" or think about it. I wasn't quite at the depth of understanding that I am now, in that she REALLY doesn't think about it, like ever.

I honestly think she was embarrassed that she talked to somebody like that - and I didn't make her feel bad about it. I was genuinely curious about how this self described "prude" could be talking so openly to someone she had (allegedly) never met. Hey, she was lonely, and an easy way to not feel lonely is to get a guy, even for a night or a casual fling. I get that. The way he was speaking to her in those messages (which were over about a month long period) were not those of somebody who is interested in marriage. It wasn't entirely him just looking to hook up, either, but it was most definitely a "looking to see who I can bang, even if it takes a little bit of effort", and it appeared that he eventually gave up. She's not a stupid woman by any stretch, so she was aware of his intentions, and went along with it - again, which is okay. But I don't think she was proud, so I can understand how she wouldn't want me to get that impression of her when we first started dating. But all the same - that's not the woman she portrayed herself to be, and not the woman she IS with me. At all.

I did remind her that she had, of her own accord, told me she wasn't interested in finding somebody at that time, and that had she been (or even if she had been with someone) it wouldn't have mattered to me.

So what I got from this was that she purposefully made me believe that she was happy to be on her own during that time. In truth, she didn't lie to me. She didn't go on any dates, she didn't hook up with anybody, etc. (I have to take her at word with this). But she also made it seem very much that she was perfectly happy being on her own and didn't need anybody.

These messages were not so close to her breakup that they could have been perceived as rebounds.

So yes, she has proven herself capable of using her sexuality in a way that I am not familiar with, under the guise of landing a man. FWIW, she was not like that with me, when we first got together. There was no innuendo between us, nor any apparent change in her behavior from then until now. There was more sex, of course, but that's normal. But she wasn't any more sexual than she is now, she wasn't more "into it". But at the same time, it was more frequent (we didn't live together then, so no kids around...) and it was new. The red flags simply weren't apparent until we moved in together, as sometimes they are.

I was also coming from a previous marriage in which duty sex (and vanilla and infrequent, at that) had been the norm for many years. So I now had a woman who APPEARED to like sex, who was multi-orgasmic, did it in more than just missionary position, gave oral sex (which I've since learned she hates, but still does it anyway) etc etc etc. It was night and day.

So you might be thinking - what the hell? It's better than you used to have, so shut up! Well, you're right about the physical aspect of it. But when your partner doesn't initiate, ever, doesn't think about sex, let alone YOU, in that way, and has said before that she could live without sex the rest of her life, that's a problem. When I spent the first few years with her thinking I've finally found somebody who's sexually compatible, only to gradually find out (or be told by her) that she simply has no desire, and it's not me, it's her, and she can live the rest of her life without it... yeah, that SUCKS. Was it bait and switch? Perhaps, but not on purpose. She just got comfortable enough with me to fill me in on her thoughts. She knows I was devastated, and still am, but nothing changes. She FEELS bad, and says so every now and again, but nothing is ever done by her to show this. It's just not important to her, even knowing it's important to me. That SUCKS.

Here's the thing, I COULD have sex a couple of times a week, if I was adamant about it. She would enjoy it and have several O's. But if it's not a mutual thing BEFORE it happens, I have no desire for that.

We have sex 2-3 times a month either because a) I can't take it any more and it's been long enough that she is fine with it, or b) it's been long enough and she knows she "should" and the kids are in bed, and she doesn't have to be up early, or she didn't have a long day, or, or or... So she "initiates" by telling me something sexy like "let's go have sex".

So it's duty sex, just like before. Except this time, my partner is good. But I know she has no desire - until she gets going - and she's not thinking of me in that way, or waiting for it, or needing it.


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