# Forgiveness Perceptions



## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

The circumstances around affairs may change from time to time, but I think the general idea is the same. I call myself two time loser, because I have been married twice, and both times I have been cheated on. 

My first wife was truly a ho-bag. While I was working late nights she was being the local pin-cushion with multiple Pas and even getting into drugs. Her mother even warned me not to marry her… but as many of us are at a young age, I could not be convinced. 

The day I found out, I filed an emergency order of custody and an order of protection for my kids, based on the drug use. I complete crushed her in court and walked away with everything, including full custody of our 2 kids. I was quite pleased with myself because I left her homeless and begging. Years later I felt guilty, I mean after all I had taken advantage of her weakened state by paying her 1000 bucks to give up her parental rights. Add that to the fact she was homeless now and getting knocked around by her new lover, and you have a recipe for long term guilt. That guilt is what made me handle my second run in with an affair differently.

My second wife, whom I am still with, had an EA on me. Sending nude pics and such to this guy half her age, and lots of sex talk. This time, I followed the mature path and worked on things. We did counseling, read self-help books, and built a relationship back up. More importantly I worked on myself. But don’t kid yourself. Behind the scenes, as we worked on “us” I didn’t trust her a bit. I was planning my own escape from her. I went back to get my degree, I lost a bunch of weight; I raised my self-esteem very high. Ultimately I was preparing to be on the market again, and if she even blinked in the wrong direction, I was gone. This was during the forgiveness stage. You have to understand forgiveness to appreciate what I am saying.

Fast forward to today. We have been married 10 years and doing fine. I believe that a marriage can survive an affair, but I want people to know that things never become like they were. I think a lot of people think they can forgive and forget, but that is not the case. You see, there is a different between grace, mercy and justice and people generally don’t have the capacity for all three of them.

Justice is when we get what we deserve.
Mercy is when we deserve something (bad), but don’t get it
Grace is when we get something (forgiveness) that we do not deserve.

My first marriage ended in justice, and my second was given mercy and grace. People rarely have the ability to give grace. 

There is a VAST gap between forgiveness in the offender’s eyes, and forgiveness in the victim’s eyes. Offenders want to know that you have gotten past things, that you love them the same, that you have given them a pass as long as they don’t mess up again. Victims view forgiveness as the thing that allows the healing process to begin, nothing more. Forgiveness has nothing to do with “getting over it”. It means that we are not going to kill you, revenge cheat, or walk right out that door (yet). It means that we will not make you pay, but we are still paying every day for the rest of our lives. 

I have forgiven my wife, in that sense, that I won’t make her pay. But I still haven’t decided if my last words, on my death bed, will be “I love you” or “I can’t believe you did that to us”. I suppose that is because I know something now, which I didn’t know before, something that I cannot unlearn. I know that my wife has the capacity to betray me. She can cheat. People always believe that their spouse could not do it, but when it happens to you, everything changes. 

I guess what my point is, is that both cheaters and victims need to understand what forgiveness is. What it entails, and what you are agreeing to when you ask for forgiveness and when you agree to forgive. We aren’t talking about a simple bump in the hallway or a toilet seat left up. This kind of forgiveness requires Mercy, a touch of justice and God willing, a little grace.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

plain truth:

u have not truly forgiven.

more like, u have learned TOLERATION, of her and this ordeal.

anyone of experience & maturity can read yer words and SEE 

this. if u want to argue this, 1st read over what u wrote

and try it from anothers perspective. (selah)


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

There is another thread going on forgiveness. But this perspective is interesting also. Leads back to how do you really know If you have forgiven?
I don't even know how I feel sometimes. I forget stuff easy nowadays I guess thats a bonus inthis situation.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21901-when-right-time-forgiveness-update.html


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

cb45 said:


> plain truth:
> 
> u have not truly forgiven.
> 
> ...


I have forgiven her, by the definition provided. I gave her the opportunity to reconcile. You are right about toleration though. I am in that phase. I suspect the next phase will come soon 

And like I said.. I dont make my wife pay. Meaning I dont shove it down her throat, and I never really bring it up. I only bring it up here.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

twotimeloser said:


> I have forgiven her, by the definition provided. I gave her the opportunity to reconcile. You are right about toleration though. I am in that phase. I suspect the next phase will come soon
> 
> And like I said.. I dont make my wife pay. Meaning I dont shove it down her throat, and I never really bring it up. I only bring it up here.


How is the mother of your two oldest kids. How do they feel about what happened to their mother? I feel so sorry for what happened to her and I hope she has made a full recovery and she has the joy of being loved by her two children. 

When i read this i wondered if your current wife has atoned adequately for her betrayal and she got forgiveness too cheaply. . I read a book that I downloaded from the iBook app on iPhone called "how can I forgive" by Janet Abrahms it is available free. It is the best book I have read because the concept of atonement is discussed. If the betrayer is not able to demonstrate that they feel your pain with you then you can not forgive them fully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> How is the mother of your two oldest kids. How do they feel about what happened to their mother? I feel so sorry for what happened to her and I hope she has made a full recovery and she has the joy of being loved by her two children.
> 
> When i read this i wondered if your current wife has atoned adequately for her betrayal and she got forgiveness too cheaply. . I read a book that I downloaded from the iBook app on iPhone called "how can I forgive" by Janet Abrahms it is available free. It is the best book I have read because the concept of atonement is discussed. If the betrayer is not able to demonstrate that they feel your pain with you then you can not forgive them fully.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To answer your question about wife #1, I have no idea how she is doing... Once i had the kids secured, I told her she could call or whatever any time she wanted... *she had moved 2000 miles away* last I heard, she was a waitress or something living with a guy... That was a couple years ago before the phone calls and birthday cards stopped. 



As far as My wife (current) getting off cheaply... I would say that is subjective. Sometimes i feel that way, but ultimately people have differing degrees of being offended. The fact that there was no PA, helped. There is a book out there called " the 5 languages of apology" I am a "Restitution type" meaning i dont take apologies in verbal form, they must be proven. From my perspective, I have divided up my forgiveness into pieces i can manage mentally. There is forgiveness, as in I dont hate you, and then forgiveness as in " everything is ok now"

Did she get off easy? I dont know yet. Because i have given the first part of forgiveness, but I have not decided if everything is ok. I mean i dont look at her and think " i hate you" but i do contemplate on if i want to be married to that type of person. Im fine for now, but i reserve the right to wak up one day and say.. ya know what... i dont really want to do this. 


But if i do... I will tell her, not cheat on her. 

I dont believe that a person ever really gets over it. they just learn to live it as a past event.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

twotimeloser said:


> I mean i dont look at her and think " i hate you" but i do contemplate on if i want to be married to that type of person. Im fine for now, but i reserve the right to wak up one day and say.. ya know what... i dont really want to do this.
> 
> 
> But if i do... I will tell her, not cheat on her.
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> I mean i dont look at her and think " i hate you" but i do contemplate on if i want to be married to that type of person. Im fine for now, but i reserve the right to wak up one day and say.. ya know what... i dont really want to do this.
> 
> 
> But if i do... I will tell her, not cheat on her.
> ...


:iagree::iagree:

That is one thing I am having a hard time getting around with my DS. How hard would it have been to tell me our Marriage has hit rock bottom and tell me how ****ty she feels about me, vs....well doing what she did anyway. I will never understand it I guess. I know there is a thread called "Never say Never" and I guess that is kind of true, but in all honesty, I could never cheat on her, even after everything she did. (And I have had chances and walked away from them.)


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

That is absolutley a stumbling block......WHY DIDN't YOU JUST TELL ME YOU WERE THIS UNHAPPY? Ahhh ya think I would not have wanted to fix it duh no now we all have this betrayal to deal with great good decision DS OK how do I work through real forgiveness again? Sometimes I feel this is an eye for an eye case. Other times not. ............rant I guess...........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

I am a "facts" kind of a guy. 

"Why didnt you tell me?" doesnt matter to me, because I believe that reasons are excuses in 100% of the cases of infidelity. There is never a way to "reason" out the acts. They are, by and large, unreasonable. Agreed?

You may as well ask "Why didnt I do that?"

Do you realize how many opportunities there are to be faithful in a PA? the meeting, the date, the hug, the kiss, the pants... ill stop there. Lots of chances to say "no" - - Is "why" really important?

There are people out there, who would never cheat. They wouldnt cheat if they were cheated on, if a perfect chance came to them and even if they were drugged and strung up naked with a gun to there head. 

I am not Married to one of those people, but my wife is.

"Why?" I know why... because she is capable of it.

Now the question is... can i deal with that? ehhh, maybe. we will see. no promises.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

which leads us to the proverbial question:

*"Once a cheater always a cheater?":scratchhead:*


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

I think I forgive something I was sure was a one time thing, but not if there is that nagging knowing it would for sure be repeated. It never goes quite back to the same though


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

cb45 said:


> which leads us to the proverbial question:
> 
> *"Once a cheater always a cheater?":scratchhead:*


YES.

Are alcoholics always alcoholics? I mean it is a disease right? They can go forever and not drink, but it no longer becomes a matter of MORAL COMPASS, it is a matter of SHEAR WILL to not drink. this is the exact same thing with a cheater. The moral compass has already been broken, everyone knows that she isn't above cheating. Only her shear will will prevent her from repeating the acts.

once the ability and capacity to be unfaithful has been exposed, it can not be undone. You can not unlearn that she was a cheater can you? 

From this day forward, you know that your wife has the ability to cheat.

Forgiveness is one thing, acceptance is another. How you handle the future, has more to do with acceptance than forgiveness. To heal your relationship you will have to accept that you are married to a cheater. 

But ultimately the answer is YES, once a cheater, always a cheater.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> YES.
> 
> Are alcoholics always alcoholics? I mean it is a disease right? They can go forever and not drink, but it no longer becomes a matter of MORAL COMPASS, it is a matter of SHEAR WILL to not drink. this is the exact same thing with a cheater. The moral compass has already been broken, everyone knows that she isn't above cheating. Only her shear will will prevent her from repeating the acts.
> 
> ...


I have heard this over and over from many different people. I am wondering if AC will come over and comment on this as I am wondering the answer to this question or statement rather myself. I agree it makes sense, and it does seem to follow my DS. Hopefully a DS can come on here and answer that for me/us, is the saying "Once a cheater, always a cheater" correct? Is it something that all of us LS have to worry about?


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> Is it something that all of us LS have to worry about?


I wouldnt use the word "worry" unless you have not reached the proper level of acceptance. Just know that it is there and that you have to provide maintainence to avoid disaster. Your car will run out of gas if you dont fill the tank, right? but you dont have to drive around worrying about it, just keep an eye on the gauge.

The difference between now and post-affair, is that now you realize the tank can run out.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> I wouldnt use the word "worry" unless you have not reached the proper level of acceptance. Just know that it is there and that you have to provide maintainence to avoid disaster. Your car will run out of gas if you dont fill the tank, right? but you dont have to drive around worrying about it, just keep an eye on the gauge.
> 
> The difference between now and post-affair, is that now you realize the tank can run out.


True, I do like the comparison there. But I have a hard time thinking like that being on "empty" my DW has never had to worry. She could not talk to me for days, we could have no sex for months, I could be drunk, high on X, and surrounded by girl friends and still not do what she did to me. I have been down that road before to be honest, (Minus the X, but maryjane) and well....I did nothing. If things got sexually "tense" I would go to the bathroom, outside, or just leave.


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

Bigwayneo said:


> I could be drunk, high on X, and surrounded by girl friends and still not do what she did to me. I have been down that road before to be honest, (Minus the X, but maryjane) and well....I did nothing. If things got sexually "tense" I would go to the bathroom, outside, or just leave.


Wayneo, I truly believe that you are either "that way" or not. I could never know what it is like to be that way, just like you could never know. And when we find out that our spouses are... we just can not comprehend it. Anger, yes. Sorrow, sure. But more than anything... I'm like, WTF? lol (sorry for the expletive, it seemed appropriate)


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## shinypenny (Feb 18, 2011)

twotimeloser said:


> I know that my wife has the capacity to betray me. She can cheat. People always believe that their spouse could not do it, but when it happens to you, everything changes.


This really affected me. After a betrayal, a person can't go back to ever thinking "this could never happen to me." Some might say that it was naive to think that in the first place, but it's like innocence lost. Things can be forgiven, but it's just not exactly the same again. 

I don't know about the "once a cheater always a cheater" thing. I'd like to think that people can change their ways. But I do think that once you've been cheated on, you're going to be just a little more defensive, maybe a little more watchful, because it's possible that it could happen again.


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## disbelief (Oct 31, 2010)

Well pretty much agree with all that can we subtitle this reality and sticky it as a reminder every once in a while I forget how lousy my M is because on a personal level I am ok. 
The wholw situation stinks to be nice for all of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

disbelief said:


> Well pretty much agree with all that can we subtitle this reality and sticky it as a reminder every once in a while I forget how lousy my M is because on a personal level I am ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



My intention isn't to stir those feelings in couples who have embraced acceptance, rather it was to take a realist approach to newly offended peoples expectations.

Having a realistic expectation is paramount to the process. Another one of the sayings i grew up was " Expectation is premeditated resentment." This means that when you expect something of someone, and that expectation is not met, you are planning to resent them unconsciously. Because they are your expectations, and rarely within reason.

Having this knowledge, can assist those newly offended individuals generate more reasonable expectations. IMHO.


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## Bigwayneo (Jan 22, 2011)

I think someone should give that quote to all newlyweds.


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