# Painfully lonely, don't want to hurt her



## speeedbump

Long time reader, finally posting my own thread.

I've been married 18 years. Finally getting to the end of my rope (I think...I've felt like this for several years now). I'll try to keep this brief, but there are so many things that make it complicated.

There's really two main issues and they have spawned multiple other things and gradually sucked the life out of our marriage.


I don't believe in God
She doesn't believe in sex

We got married young. I was a good christian boy and we waited until marriage to have sex. There was some making out and heavy petting before hand, but that's about it. Then came the wedding night and there was no sex. She was tired and self-conscious and cried. I didn't push it. No sex on the honeymoon and not for the first three years of our marriage. It was killing me, but I was a good christian boy and didn't consider divorce an option.

Somewhere before our fourth anniversary, we finally started having sex. I think she knew she was about to lose me. It was always uncomfortable for her though. At the best couple years in our marriage we probably averaged 2-3 times a month, but it was always me initiating. she did it out of a sense of obligation. She's never had much libido and the combination of endometriosis, body image issues and a strict religious upbringing that led her to believe that sex is dirty give her just about every possible reason not to want sex. I've done everything I could to try to improve the situation. I've taken good care of myself, read every book I could find on the topic and tried to jump through all her hoops in hopes of marginally increasing my odds of getting a more fulfilling intimate relationship. Any remaining spark was killed when our kids were born. Then I (and our relationship) went to the bottom of her priority list.

Somewhere along the way I lost my faith and became an atheist. I feel bad about this and did everything I could to try to hang onto or reacquire my faith but I couldn't. She married me assuming she was getting a good christian man and that was her number one criteria in a spouse. I feel terrible about this but I can't change it. I had no intention of misleading her. I was raised in a strict religious cocoon and never had to question my beliefs. I still support her by going to church with them every week.

So this has given her another reason to not feel close to me and further kills an already non-existent libido.

She's a good person and I still love her. She's an excellent mother but our relationship is like roommates at best. We have sex occasionally but it is always of the obligatory/guilt/duty driven, get him to shut up variety, which is better than nothing, but not much.

Realizing that there are legitimate issues for her lack of desire, I've tried to be patient and understanding but what makes it difficult is that she will not admit that there is a problem. She told me she'd be happy if she never had sex again--with me or anyone else. She recoils at my touch. She thinks once a month is more than enough. When I tell her that it hurts me to go more than 4 weeks without sex, she tells me that it's my problem. FYI, although intercourse is usually uncomfortable for her, she does orgasm almost every time. I do everything I can to make it pleasurable for her. she gets countless massages as well. I admit I get resentful and shorter tempered when I'm so frustrated by a lack of intimacy. I'm not always the most cheerful person and am sometimes withdrawn.

The other big problem is that she refuses to take any action to try to improve our situation. She will not go to counseling with me. I have begged many times. Last year I went to counseling by myself. She won't even read a book for me. She says nothing can get better until I fix my religion problem and marriage counseling won't be able to do that so there's no point.

I've read tons of threads on this website and many others. I've read MMSLP, HNHN, Too Good To Leave, To Bad To stay, The Five Love Languages and probably a dozen other marriage/relationship books. I'm in the best shape of my life. I make a good living. I am a good father. I come straight home from work every day. I spend my weekends with the family. I help out around the house. I do woodworking and landscaping for her. I rarely go out (she resents me when I do).

I've tried to discuss it with her. I've tried to tell her how I'm feeling. I don't know what else I can do. When we start talking, she escalates quickly. She tells me I'm a bad father and a terrible spouse and I never do anything for her and I'm not meeting any of her needs.

If we didn't have two awesome kids, it would be easier to leave. But I don't want to hurt her and I don't want to wreck their life. Anytime I think I'm ready to leave, I'm overcome by guilt.

Sorry for rambling. I could go on and on about more of the other problems that cave cropped up after we've been drifting apart, but this is probably plenty to start with. I've had this pent up for a long time. I'm not expecting any miracle solutions that I haven't already heard or tried but any advice is appreciated.


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## neglected42

You are really in a tough spot. I have had health issues and a husband who was too selfish to be gentle, which has caused painful intercourse as well. The problem is her brain is now wired. Intercourse = Pain. We are just animals, and once the brain has made that kind of association it is VERY difficult to reverse. Animals will go to great lengths to avoid pain, once the association is there, I have no clue how to change it. When my husband was not being gentle, I would tell him, "how much would you enjoy sex if every once in awhile during intercourse I gave you a quick jab to the balls"? Your wife may still be having orgasms because it feels good some of the time, but there is also that element of pain. Trust me, I would rather go without the orgasm! That being said, you sound as if you have been a patient and caring husband. Could she not satisfy you sexually in ways that don't include intercourse? Have you discussed this with her?


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## lenzi

speeedbump said:


> She says nothing can get better until I fix my religion problem and marriage counseling won't be able to do that so there's no point.


You don't have a religion problem.

She's obviously using that as an excuse.

I see 3 options:

Maintain the status quo and build a sizeable porn collection and stock up on lube. I can pm you a couple of great porn sites but I'm thinking you probably don't need any help with that by now.

Tell her if she isn't going to put out more often then you're going to get it on the side.

Divorce her and find someone who you can actually have meaningful regular sex with.


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## speeedbump

neglected42 said:


> ...Could she not satisfy you sexually in ways that don't include intercourse? Have you discussed this with her?


Haven't had much luck there. Part of the mindset that probably came from religion is that oral sex is dirty/wrong/gross. She has never performed oral on me and rarely lets me give it to her. Hand jobs are more of a symbol of rejection than love and are usually given with an obligatory "get it over with" attitude that leaves me feeling empty.


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## speeedbump

lenzi said:


> You don't have a religion problem.
> 
> She's obviously using that as an excuse.
> 
> I see 3 options:
> 
> Maintain the status quo and build a sizeable porn collection and stock up on lube. I can pm you a couple of great porn sites but I'm thinking you probably don't need any help with that by now.
> 
> Tell her if she isn't going to put out more often then you're going to get it on the side.
> 
> Divorce her and find someone who you can actually have meaningful regular sex with.


I don't see 1 or 2 as viable long term solutions. That leaves number three. I am gradually coming around to this conclusion but so far have been paralyzed by guilt. She has a way of making me feel like a selfish bastard for thinking about wrecking our family just so I can get laid. Of course there is much more to it than that. Neither one of us is happy.


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## happy as a clam

speedbump... I think you already know what you need to do. You just don't want to do it.

There's nothing any of us can say to shed more light on a solution for your situation -- you've outlined your dilemma perfectly, you already know that you're extremely dissatisfied in your marriage, and I think you realize that you two really are a mismatch.

I feel qualified to speak to your post; like you, I was in an empty, near-sexless marriage with a partner who had a lot of serious hangups stemming from his childhood upbringing (overly controlling parents, strict religious upbringing, inability to be intimate -- not just sex, but "connecting" in general with a partner, just a lot of emotional baggage).

Like you, I also had great kids, a relatively stable home life, and didn't want to "wreck it" for everyone in the family. But I was dying inside; there was just nothing left of me.

I got out at 20 years. It was the best decision I ever made. It was hard on everyone, but my kids will tell you that they are far happier now that their parents are both happier.

If you're interested, you can read my story in my signature line below. One piece of advice... stop feeling "paralyzed by guilt." If anyone should feel paralyzed by guilt, it's your wife for failing to live up to ANY reasonable standard of a marriage contract.

I wish you the best...


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## speeedbump

neglected42 said:


> I have had health issues and a husband who was too selfish to be gentle, which has caused painful intercourse as well. The problem is her brain is now wired. Intercourse = Pain. We are just animals, and once the brain has made that kind of association it is VERY difficult to reverse. Animals will go to great lengths to avoid pain, once the association is there, I have no clue how to change it.


The physical issues also add to the guilt when I think about leaving. She does have some legitimate reasons.

It would be so much different though if she would admit that my needs are legitimate and at least offering some empathy instead of trying to convince me that I'm a pervert for wanting sex with my wife. There's always comments about how I should stop acting like a horny teenager...that most married people our age don't have much sex anymore (I'm 39)...that there's something wrong with me for wanting sex so often.

She even gets upset by the mention of sex. There's no sexy flirting. Innuendos always offend her. She gets thinks it's inappropriate if I touch her if the kids are in the house. 

I feel selfish for saying it, but I'm not sure she's done everything she could to try to improve or mitigate the physical issues. As far as I know she hasn't done much to inquire of her doctor what can be done about the painful intercourse. She will not even attempt other positions (always missionary).

Then there's the fact that she once told me that if I became a good christian man again and a spiritual leader of the household that she'd happily have sex with me three times a week! This indicates that either the pain isn't that bad or that there's something more she could do about it. It also begs the question, why weren't we having sex more often back when I was a good christian man? It's always another hoop to jump through.


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## Thound

Wow! I know exactly how you feel. I could have wrote this myself, excluding the athiest part. I can tell you it kills your self worth, your feelings of being desireable. It makes it hard just to get up in the morning and go to work. It makes you feel like you are just a pay check and handy man. If she were following the Bible, she would be doing every thing with in reason of meeting your needs. And like wise you would need to do the same. I dont leave because of my Christian values and my vows. If you're an atheist you have no reason not to divorce other than guilt. Maybe you start divorce proceedings and maybe she will wake up, if not go thru with it. A life time is a long time to be miserable.


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## speeedbump

Thanks for sharing your story, Happy. It's good to hear that there is life and hope after a sex-starved marriage.


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## speeedbump

Thound said:


> ...A life time is a long time to be miserable.


Thanks Thound. I keep over analyzing things, thinking that maybe because I'm about to turn 40 it is some sort of early mid-life crisis thing that I'd regret later. Worried that if I wait another 10-15 years until the kids are out of the house that I'll be old, fat and bald and no one will want me then. But the truth is I've been feeling like this for many years.

The last time I asked her to go to counseling and she refused, she said I should instead spend the time and money and take her on a nice vacation and that would do more to fix things than counseling ever could. Which made me think back to some of our previous "romantic" vacations. For our 13th anniversary, I booked a beautiful modern treehouse in the woods. Isolated yet fully modern and equipped with a hot tub and all other amenities. We were there for four nights in the ultimate private, peaceful setting and we didn't have sex even once. I told myself, if we didn't have sex on this 13th anniversary trip, there's no reason to celebrate a 14th...but I'm still here.

I am convinced I'd eventually be happier if I left. The "Too Good To Leave..." book helped clarify that. I get excited about the thought of being single so I can find a relationship where both of us can make the other feel loved and appreciated.


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## speeedbump

Regarding some of the discussion on Happy's thread, I can't judge anyone who falls into an EA before the divorce is official. I am so lonely and vulnerable and starved for affection (the "His Needs, Her Needs" book clarified this, it's a good thing I'm not in an environment where I encounter any temptation!


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## neglected42

> Then there's the fact that she once told me that if I became a good christian man again and a spiritual leader of the household that she'd happily have sex with me three times a week! This indicates that either the pain isn't that bad or that there's something more she could do about it. It also begs the question, why weren't we having sex more often back when I was a good christian man?


 This is telling. It does show she sees this as a choice, and if the pain was bad, three times a week really would not be an option. Religion is clearly a very important part of her life, and you have done a 180 there. Sex is something that she does not enjoy. I don't think she is holding out to be spiteful. In her world, her brain, her body, sex is a negative not a positive. It is hard for someone who finds sex the "ultimate positive" to even get their head around that. But it is her reality all the same. To get angry with her regarding this is futile. Sex and religion are two huge issues where the two of you are on VERY different pages. How do you change your beliefs??? How does she change the way her body experiences something??? You both force yourselves at what cost? Perhaps it is time you both go see a mediator or a counselor regarding divorce. Let someone help both of you through this. It takes a great deal of compatibility to go through your whole journey of life with the same person happily. It is a great burden that society expects this of every couple. People change, and that causes changes in relationships.


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## speeedbump

neglected42 said:


> ...Religion is clearly a very important part of her life, and you have done a 180 there. Sex is something that she does not enjoy. I don't think she is holding out to be spiteful. In her world, her brain, her body, sex is a negative not a positive. It is hard for someone who finds sex the "ultimate positive" to even get their head around that. But it is her reality all the same. To get angry with her regarding this is futile. Sex and religion are two huge issues where the two of you are on VERY different pages.


Good points. I am very aware of my 180 on religion and take full responsibility for it. I know what she believes and understand the tough position I've put her in, worrying that I'm going to hell and may lead our children to hell. This contributes to my guilt, makes it harder for me to blame her for anything and therefore harder for me to leave.

The fact is that we both have changed. She admits that if she met me today she would not even date me, but she took a sacred vow...

It doesn't seem like it's possible to just admit that we both have changed and that we're not right for each other anymore without pain, blame, suffering, resentment...

I agree that we should see a counselor or mediator. We need some input and communication help from a neutral 3rd party. I would really feel better if this could be done before I file, knowing that I did everything I could. But she absolutely refuses.


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## happy as a clam

speeedbump said:


> I agree that we should see a counselor or mediator. We need some input and communication help from a neutral 3rd party. I would really feel better if this could be done before I file, knowing that I did everything I could. *But she absolutely refuses.*


Then, there you have it, speed. You have tried everything to "fix" your marriage but she refuses to even meet you half-way. That clearly demonstrates that she is no way your "partner." Partners work TOGETHER, not at cross-purposes on major issues.

You need to re-frame this in your own mind and stop blaming yourself. You are trying to save your marriage. She is not.

What else can you reasonably be expected to do?


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## Thor

My experience in my own marriage, and my observations of many others, and feedback from two therapists all lead me to believe that when a person refuses to participate in therapy they are running away from something.

Your wife is scared of something coming out in therapy. What is it? Idk. My guess is that she knows she is out of the norm when it comes to sex, and she feels some guilt for it. She fears it being confirmed that she has a problem, and she fears it being confirmed that it is central to the marital problems.

Now that is a guess, it could be many other things. Perhaps she was sexually abused as a child (as was my wife) and she fears revealing it. Perhaps she fears the differences between you two are not reconcilable and she fears divorce will result (and perhaps it would be a major religious conflict for her). Perhaps she fears her parents discovering you two have problems. Maybe she fears the therapist will be judgmental of her. Maybe she fears something else about her past will be revealed.

Anyhow, her refusal for therapy is a warning sign that there is in fact something big there which needs to be resolved.


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## Miss Taken

Like Happy said, you know what you need to do.

I don't think anyone can fault you for wanting out of this marriage. Your desires to have sex with your wife are normal. You aren't a pervert. Your wife has problems that go beyond her endometriosis and religious hang ups. 

Sex is very important in marriage and in keeping a marriage strong. From a religious standpoint, the Bible encourages married couples to have and enjoy sex and the marital bed is supposed to be undefiled. Paul commands spouses to satisfy each other's sexual needs unless BOTH agree to abstain from sex for a predetermined period of prayer and that your bodies belong to each other. The husband's body belongs to the wife, the wife's to her husband. There is also the Song of Solomon etc. From a scientific standpoint, hormones and chemicals are released during sex such as oxytocin (the "love hormone" during sex which helps us stay bonded to our mates. Without sex, touch, physical affection you and your wife both release less of that hormone. That feeling of love suffers as a result. 

Your wife doesn't want to change. If she did, she would be open to the counseling and books you suggested. She would get help for her endometriosis. I'm sure if she had a benign tumor growing out the side of her face, she would get help for it. However, because her endometriosis creates an excuse for her to get out of doing something she doesn't want, she doesn't deal with it.

Wanting out of a sexless marriage has a lot more to do with just wanting sex but it's also about intimacy, love, connection etc. Those are real human needs. Infants who are never touched after birth die even if they are fed. I don't see why not having affection or touch in your marriage wouldn't also cause pain. It might not kill you physically but it definitely hurts on an emotional and psychological basis. 

I think the biggest hurdle for ending your marriage is the guilt you feel. You need to get over that or accept more of the same.


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## Nikita2270

speeedbump said:


> Haven't had much luck there. Part of the mindset that probably came from religion is that oral sex is dirty/wrong/gross. She has never performed oral on me and rarely lets me give it to her. Hand jobs are more of a symbol of rejection than love and are usually given with an obligatory "get it over with" attitude that leaves me feeling empty.


I'm sorry but it is completely immoral to marry a man when you think something about his body or something about normal sexual activity with him is "gross.". That is a COMPLETE deal breaker in my opinion. Its so hurtful and wrong.

Who cares that she's a good housekeeper and mother?!? You can hire a maid or nanny. You married her because you wanted a wife and she didn't have sex with you for 3 years?!?!?! WTF?

Again forgive my bluntness but I would divorce her so fast her head would spin.

Trust me on this. The one commodity in life you can't get back is time. Don't spend your life with someone who doesn't care enough about you to love you well the way you deserve. Affection and sex with my partner defines our love and solidifies us as a couple. Its so precious and no person should have to live without being cared for by their spouse.

She's self-centered, frigid, closed-off, and ridiculous. 

Divorce her and find a real woman who isn't a puritanical nutbag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nikita2270

speeedbump said:


> I don't see 1 or 2 as viable long term solutions. That leaves number three. I am gradually coming around to this conclusion but so far have been paralyzed by guilt. She has a way of making me feel like a selfish bastard for thinking about wrecking our family just so I can get laid. Of course there is much more to it than that. Neither one of us is happy.



Having sex with your partner isn't just about "getting laid.". Again her judgmental attitude about your normal needs is flippant, rude, and flat-out wrong. You should be very angry right now. I'm angry for you!

Sex with your partner helps to guarantee monogamy because it creates a hormonal reaction in the brain.
Sex is important for both of your physical and mental health. Far more important than you think...she is literally shortening your life span. Basically you married someone who cares about herself a lot more than she cares about you.

Please don't waste your life energy on someone who can't even be arsed to educate herself and try to be a decent wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

Read this site and consider referring your wife to it.

Start Here


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## Nikita2270

Miss Taken said:


> Like Happy said, you know what you need to do.
> 
> I don't think anyone can fault you for wanting out of this marriage. Your desires to have sex with your wife are normal. You aren't a pervert. Your wife has problems that go beyond her endometriosis and religious hang ups.
> 
> Sex is very important in marriage and in keeping a marriage strong. From a religious standpoint, the Bible encourages married couples to have and enjoy sex and the marital bed is supposed to be undefiled. Paul commands spouses to satisfy each other's sexual needs unless BOTH agree to abstain from sex for a predetermined period of prayer and that your bodies belong to each other. The husband's body belongs to the wife, the wife's to her husband. There is also the Song of Solomon etc. From a scientific standpoint, hormones and chemicals are released during sex such as oxytocin (the "love hormone" during sex which helps us stay bonded to our mates. Without sex, touch, physical affection you and your wife both release less of that hormone. That feeling of love suffers as a result.
> 
> Your wife doesn't want to change. If she did, she would be open to the counseling and books you suggested. She would get help for her endometriosis. I'm sure if she had a benign tumor growing out the side of her face, she would get help for it. However, because her endometriosis creates an excuse for her to get out of doing something she doesn't want, she doesn't deal with it.
> 
> Wanting out of a sexless marriage has a lot more to do with just wanting sex but it's also about intimacy, love, connection etc. Those are real human needs. Infants who are never touched after birth die even if they are fed. I don't see why not having affection or touch in your marriage wouldn't also cause pain. It might not kill you physically but it definitely hurts on an emotional and psychological basis.
> 
> I think the biggest hurdle for ending your marriage is the guilt you feel. You need to get over that or accept more of the same.


I know the guilt reaction is tough to deal with but ugh, reading this OPs post actually infuriated me. Horrible woman. Who marries someone they don't care about enough to have sex with for 3 years without at least having the common courtesy to tell that that's her plan?

She claims to be religious but that is easily one of the most deceptive, immoral, and sick bait and switches I've ever heard.

She doesn't deserve to have a husband...she flat out betrayed this guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Miss Taken

IKR? I agree with you. I also think it's sad that his thread title is about not wanting to hurt her. Yet where's her concern about the hurt this neglect has caused him for years.

I also consider the religious blackmail, spiritual abuse. "Turn back into a Christian and I'll give you duty sex three times a week." W to the T to the F.


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## speeedbump

Thor said:


> Your wife is scared of something coming out in therapy. What is it? Idk. My guess is that she knows she is out of the norm when it comes to sex, and she feels some guilt for it. She fears it being confirmed that she has a problem, and she fears it being confirmed that it is central to the marital problems.


I think you hit the nail on the head. She doesn't want to hear that she's at fault or she should consider changing anything. When I ask her to read "The Sex Starved Marriage," she refuses, claiming that our marriage is NOT sex starved. She considers my point of view totally invalid.

Before we were married we went to pre-marital counseling at our church. She felt like the pastor took my side on an issue and suggested she might be acting a little unreasonable. She got upset, didn't want to go back and finish the sessions. That was 20 years ago and she's still mad at that pastor to this day!

She sees my desire for counseling as a selfish act: Me trying to tell her she's wrong.


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## speeedbump

Nikita2270 said:


> ...Who marries someone they don't care about enough to have sex with for 3 years without at least having the common courtesy to tell that that's her plan?
> 
> She claims to be religious but that is easily one of the most deceptive, immoral, and sick bait and switches I've ever heard.
> 
> She doesn't deserve to have a husband...she flat out betrayed this guy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really appreciate all the support. I still feel compelled to defend her at least a little bit.

I honestly don't believe it was premeditated or a conscious bait and switch. She didn't know she wouldn't like sex. That it would be painful. We never tried before we got married. I don't think it's uncommon for a woman raised in a strict religious environment who has been taught her whole life that sex is wrong and dirty and sinful prior to marriage to be able to just flip a switch and now it's OK and beautiful. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt here.

But I agree that that doesn't excuse her from at least putting forth an effort to try to improve our intimacy especially when she knows how I feel and how much it hurts me.


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## speeedbump

Thor said:


> Read this site and consider referring your wife to it.
> 
> Start Here


Thanks for the link. Looks like there's a lot of good stuff there, or it would be to most rational people.

If past results are any indication, when I ask her to look at this she will invariably get upset and give one of the following responses:

I don't need to look at that because we don't have a problem
But I've got all these real physical problems that make all of that advice not applicable
None of this will help until I feel closer to you and if you're not a Christian and don't share my values, I'll never feel like I can trust you/open myself up to you...
...some other excuse


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## Thor

speeedbump said:


> Thanks for the link. Looks like there's a lot of good stuff there, or it would be to most rational people.
> 
> If past results are any indication, when I ask her to look at this she will invariably get upset and give one of the following responses:
> 
> I don't need to look at that because we don't have a problem
> But I've got all these real physical problems that make all of that advice not applicable
> None of this will help until I feel closer to you and if you're not a Christian and don't share my values, I'll never feel like I can trust you/open myself up to you...
> ...some other excuse


1) If one of you is unhappy, there is by definition a problem in the marriage.

2) She should commit to an aggressive effort at resolving medical issues. Most all issues are resolvable to the extent that a full normal life can be enjoyed. Even if not 100% fixed, she can expect significant improvement. Her lack of willingness to seek medical help speaks volumes about her level of detachment from concern about you.

3) Possibly true. In which case she is saying she will never be able to have a normal, loving, trusting relationship with her husband due to a requirement you can never meet.

I suggest you read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty". It is a superb book about dealing with such manipulative tactics. In item 1) above she is shaming you or dismissing you. In item 2) above she is playing the victim in order to manipulate you into suppressing your normal and reasonable human needs. In item 3) above she is again attempting to shame you. There are good techniques for dealing with these tactics of hers. WISNIFG is far more than the title suggests.


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## WorkingOnMe

You've outlined several examples of lying and hypocrisy, one of my personal pet peaves. Saying she'd be sexual if you were christian even though she wasn't when you were before. Claiming a vacation would work when it didn't before. But your posts make it sound like you never call her on these things you just let them stand and secretly rail against her words. Most men would laugh in her face and then head to the bar. What have you got to lose? Your own posts make you seem meek, almost cowardly regarding her. Personally I'd be making the home a pretty hostile place where she gets no peace. There are ways to make her feel the consequences of her behavior.


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## WorkingOnMe

speeedbump said:


> [*]None of this will help until I feel closer to you and if you're not a Christian and don't share my values, I'll never feel like I can trust you/open myself up to you...



She's making the best argument for divorce possible. All you have to do is agree with her and end it guilt free.


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## Trickster

Speedbump-

I get where you are coming from...

I married a 25 year old Jewish virgin... I Always hoped that over time, sex would improve. I gave her all the time in the world...22 years later, we are back to no sex....

I am not a nice husband anymore...I have nothing to lose at this point.


I like WOM's post....

Get out, meet people, develop friends.... You will find a woman that will be interested in you at some point...

I am not all that good looking myself... However, I do have three woman, that by definition, I am having a full blown EA... I am not cheating because I tell my wife about most conversations that I have....plus we agreed to an open marriage...

I have a date with one of them and it doesn't phase my wife one bit.... I just asked her if she wanted to help me drink a bottle of wine.. She said "of course I will"....Don't know where it will lead...I know where I want it to go....



I deleted all my threads.... I had a lot..all of them proving my neediness and codependency...

I was an idiot, I was meek, I was being a fool, needy, passive, and many more adjatives...I was a coward... I WAS!

I am becoming a man again...

It took 3 stinking years of TAM before my brain had enough heartache to wake up and realize nothing will change.

Start going out... Whatcha got to lose?


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## Miss Taken

speeedbump said:


> Thanks for the link. Looks like there's a lot of good stuff there, or it would be to most rational people.
> 
> If past results are any indication, when I ask her to look at this she will invariably get upset and give one of the following responses:
> 
> I don't need to look at that because we don't have a problem
> But I've got all these real physical problems that make all of that advice not applicable
> None of this will help until I feel closer to you and if you're not a Christian and don't share my values, I'll never feel like I can trust you/open myself up to you...
> ...some other excuse



1) Your burdens are my burdens and vice versa. A relationship or a marriage is a partnership. If one of us has a problem, we should both work together to solve it. 

2) I have been and am compassionate to your health issues throughout our marriage. I want you to be happy and healthy, as well as our marriage. Please go to the doctor to find ways that you can fix or ease your symptoms. I can come with you for support if you need me.

3) The lack of sex, affection and intimacy has hurt both of us. The more you distance yourself from me physically the further I withdraw into myself and out of this marriage to the point that I am considering divorce. I love you and our children and don't want to divorce but I need to feel loved. Physical affection is an expression of that love and it hurts to have my love rejected. 

I admit that the change in my religious beliefs are a lot to take in but my core values are still the same. My belief in commitment and fidelity and partnership towards you are the same. That I am still here and reaching out to you instead of leaving is testament to that. I still love you and hope you will love me for me despite my beliefs.


----------



## speeedbump

Trickster said:


> ....
> 
> Get out, meet people, develop friends.... You will find a woman that will be interested in you at some point...
> 
> I am not all that good looking myself... However, I do have three woman, that by definition, I am having a full blown EA... I am not cheating because I tell my wife about most conversations that I have....plus we agreed to an open marriage...
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Start going out... Whatcha got to lose?


I'm not really worried about finding another woman who would be interested in me. I'd just prefer to officially end this relationship before I jump into another. I can't say I haven't considered it and I won't judge anyone who does but I prefer to be honest and open and wouldn't feel good sneaking around or lying to anyone.

And I know my wife well enough to know that she wouldn't consider an open relationship...I'm sure she'd choose divorce if given the choice.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

You need to GET OUT. You should have done so after that first year. You are not in a marriage, and no one deserves to live like you have been doing. DROP THE GUILT! It is NOT serving you well at all. Your wife will never, ever change...do you wish to live in misery for the next 40 years??


----------



## speeedbump

WorkingOnMe said:


> But your posts make it sound like you never call her on these things you just let them stand and secretly rail against her words. Most men would laugh in her face and then head to the bar. What have you got to lose? Your own posts make you seem meek, almost cowardly regarding her. Personally I'd be making the home a pretty hostile place where she gets no peace. There are ways to make her feel the consequences of her behavior.


I'm aware that in reading my posts I may come across as meek or cowardly. And there's probably some truth to that. I like to think it's because I am loyal, dedicated and a man of my word, but I clearly have been too patient and haven't stood up for myself enough.

The first years of my marriage I was still a practicing Christian and didn't see divorce as an option even though our "marriage" was celibate. And other things were much better back then. Today there's no question that would be a deal breaker.


----------



## speeedbump

3Xnocharm said:


> You need to GET OUT. You should have done so after that first year. You are not in a marriage, and no one deserves to live like you have been doing. DROP THE GUILT! It is NOT serving you well at all. Your wife will never, ever change...do you wish to live in misery for the next 40 years??


Thanks for the direct advice. If I was on the outside looking in, I would say the same thing. It's easy for me to see this in other stories but difficult to follow my own advice.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

speeedbump said:


> I'm aware that in reading my posts I may come across as meek or cowardly. And there's probably some truth to that. I like to think it's because I am loyal, dedicated and a man of my word, but I clearly have been too patient and haven't stood up for myself enough.
> 
> The first years of my marriage I was still a practicing Christian and didn't see divorce as an option even though our "marriage" was celibate. And other things were much better back then. Today there's no question that would be a deal breaker.


I think what you really need to come to understand is that had you put your foot down at the beginning and made it a deal breaker it's very likely that every part of your marriage would have turned out differently. Your behavior and willingness to just go along has played a huge part in how your life has turned out. In my mind you weren't even officially married until you consummated it. I'm sure that deep down inside your "wife" must have been surprised as hell that you weren't seeking annulment after the "honeymoon". That reaction gave her a green light to walk all over you, without any fear of repercussion at all.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I dont think I have ever read a thread here where a couple who waited to have sex until they were married, has ended up happy and fulfilled.


----------



## Thor

What keeps you from leaving today?


----------



## speeedbump

Thor said:


> What keeps you from leaving today?


Good question. Like the title says, I don't want to hurt her, and more so, I don't want to hurt my kids.

She's a SAHM and is homeschooling the kids (her idea). I wasn't a big fan of this initially, but it's actually working very well. Kids are thriving academically. Post divorce, she would probably have to go back to work, kids would probably have to go back to school. She is an RN and still has her license though she hasn't worked full time in many years. She hates it though and never wants to work as an RN again.

And I'm sure I've got the same fears and concerns of everyone else who has ever considered divorce. Not looking forward to selling the house, moving, parting with 50% of my/our assets. I don't think I'd have to pay alimony/spousal support here in TX. Not too worried about child support payments. I'm willing to lower my standard of living if it gets me a shot at happiness. Very concerned about custody/visitation. Dread the thought of not seeing my kids every day. 

I'm also worried about her falling into depression. I can handle it when she's angry, but if she gets depressed, nobody wins. She's had some issues with that in the past after the birth of our daughter.

Until recently I thought we were putting up a good front for the kids and they thought we were happy, but it's clear that they are seeing some cracks in the facade. I'm still not sure that our home environment is so toxic that they'd be better off if we split. After we had it out on Monday my son asked her if we were getting a divorce, so he know's something's up.

I think I'm starting to come to peace with the idea a little more.


----------



## Nikita2270

speeedbump said:


> Thanks for the direct advice. If I was on the outside looking in, I would say the same thing. It's easy for me to see this in other stories but difficult to follow my own advice.


I don't think you sound weak. I think you sound manipulated.

If sex is painful, you go to the doctor or you find another way to pleasure your partner. And how can you justify the 1st 3 years if she hadn't even tried it yet.

The idea of a woman refusing to have sex and then saying that oral sex is gross or wrong to her is absolutely ridiculous. You are her husband, there's nothing wrong with any part of your partner's body, and to suggest "its gross" is an insult to you.

I'm definitely sympathetic as to your loyalty and dedication to your "marriage" (its not really a marriage, btw) and to your children. I stayed in a loveless, affectionate-less over 20 year relationship with my ex-husband and its why I'm telling you now that you really have no idea how much you're missing out of life.

Its not just that she doesn't want to have sex...its that she's so totally uncaring of the way you feel and is totally unwillingly to educate, get help and make things better. You CANNOT have a marriage with someone like that. She won't even try and she judges YOU?

You need to recognize that everyone has a spectrum of needs and what happens is when you neglect one over time, it starts SCREAMING inside of you. The feelings you're having will get much, much worse and harder for you to deal with and will manifest themselves in ways you're not expecting if you stay in the marriage.

You have some fatal incompatibilities going on and even if they were fixable (which I highly doubt), she won't be arsed to get any help because she has you under her thumb.

By the way, aside from the 3-years of no sex...your story sounds very close to my new partner's previous marriage. He was with a woman that became increasingly more nutty religious with time....would pressure him to change his beliefs which softened over time....and would show him zero affection. He divorced her and now cannot understand how he managed to tolerate her for so long. When he looks at her and their relationship from afar now...he realizes how much she controlled every aspect of his life. And he's not a dumb guy, he's brilliant..it was just an insidious, long-term pattern of behavior and manipulation. If he brought up the lack of affection, she'd freak out and start yelling and complaining about something else. And because he's a low-conflict guy and doesn't like yelling, he'd back down to calm her down and nothing would get resolved.

My partner was a guy who believed in marriage for life and did a lot of research and counselling before he realized he needed to extricate himself from the marriage to have any chance at happiness.

Since he divorced her, she's gotten a lot worse and shows all the signs of potentially having a personality disorder. People with these types of disorders are expert manipulators....you need to do a little reading maybe.

By the way, she used religion to try to get him not to divorce her too. How he was betraying god, etc. Totally wingnut.

I'm not saying your wife is the same but your story just sounded weirdly familiar to me.


----------



## speeedbump

Nikita2270 said:


> By the way, aside from the 3-years of no sex...your story sounds very close to my new partner's previous marriage. He was with a woman that became increasingly more nutty religious with time....


I didn't even get a chance to get into this but this is also the case and is putting further stress on our relationship. When she started researching homeschooling, it led her to all these mommy-bloggers and conservative Facebook groups. She picked a church that is extremely conservative (very anti-gay, young-earth creationist...I'm embarrassed to be seen there and cringe at what my kids are hearing). The nuttiness is not only religious, but all sorts of alternative medicine, nutritional/organic/vitamin supplement, conspiracy theory stuff. She started spending hundreds of dollars on Genesis Pure and Isagenix. Started buying organic everything. Went from skim milk to whole milk to almond milk to unsweetened almond milk then to organic milk. I never know what the milk of the week is and if I come home from the store with the wrong variety she gives me crap. She got upset when I got a root canal and forwarded me a link to some quack alternative medicine website, convinced that I was wasting money and was going to get cancer from it.

I don't want to get too deep into a debate about politics, religion, nutrition and pros and cons about organic produce. I'm fairly open minded and am willing to be swayed by legitimately researched positions. 

She used to be financially responsible and more reasonable with mainstream ideas. These changes obviously haven't helped our situation!


----------



## Nikita2270

speeedbump said:


> I didn't even get a chance to get into this but this is also the case and is putting further stress on our relationship. When she started researching homeschooling, it led her to all these mommy-bloggers and conservative Facebook groups. She picked a church that is extremely conservative (very anti-gay, young-earth creationist...I'm embarrassed to be seen there and cringe at what my kids are hearing). The nuttiness is not only religious, but all sorts of alternative medicine, nutritional/organic/vitamin supplement, conspiracy theory stuff. She started spending hundreds of dollars on Genesis Pure and Isagenix. Started buying organic everything. Went from skim milk to whole milk to almond milk to unsweetened almond milk then to organic milk. I never know what the milk of the week is and if I come home from the store with the wrong variety she gives me crap. She got upset when I got a root canal and forwarded me a link to some quack alternative medicine website, convinced that I was wasting money and was going to get cancer from it.
> 
> I don't want to get too deep into a debate about politics, religion, nutrition and pros and cons about organic produce. I'm fairly open minded and am willing to be swayed by legitimately researched positions.
> 
> She used to be financially responsible and more reasonable with mainstream ideas. These changes obviously haven't helped our situation!


There's nothing wrong any of that in isolation. Some of what she's doing sounds healthy.

The issue is that she's on her own path and seems to be making major decisions without your consent and your agreement. Its really hard to maintain a marriage with someone who only sees things their way and doesn't communicate and find compromise with what you need.

For instance, its nice that you've compromised on the religion thing from your end. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone without a strong belief in religion sitting through a sermon or two. That to me is a reasonable compromise.

However, its not reasonable that she refuses normal marital sex or doesn't consult you on the budget and makes other critical decisions without your input. Its also completely unreasonable that when you want to discuss these things that she intimidates you by getting judgy and angry. These are major manipulation tactics. Please read the following link: Psychological manipulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ultimately, you can want to save your marriage and should try every avenue to do so but it sounds like she's very rigid and unwilling to find ways to meet your needs. Its sounds like she's very self-focused.

I think you should really explain to her how you're feeling an what the stakes are of her continued behavior and if she isn't willing to find ways to meet you at an agreed upon compromise then you're going to seek an amicable separation.

I can tell you that my new partner tried 4 different marital counsellors and 3 trial separations with his ex over a 4-5 year time frame with his ex. Nothing worked. She would leave therapy and not go back saying that she wasn't clicking with the therapist....finally, she freaked out on the last therapist for "taking his side" and stormed out and refused to ever go to counselling again. The therapist first said that she had never felt so intimidated by a client and the second thing she told my partner something was something that stuck with him and ultimately helped him decide to end the marriage. She said that when two people are drowning together, you should do everything you can to save the other person and yourself. But ultimately if someone keeps fighting and fighting and you can't drag them to shore, you have to make the decision that you're either both going to drown together or you're going to save yourself.

He ultimately decided to save himself and his children and it the process, he found me and saved me too. I'm grateful for his courage in making that decision every single day.


----------



## Thor

speeedbump said:


> Good question. Like the title says, I don't want to hurt her, and more so, I don't want to hurt my kids.


Ok, it is good to distill it down like that.

As far as the kids, it is obvious they are being negatively impacted already. Consider that if you divorce they will have at least one happy home (yours) and probably two happy homes. I would expect your wife to continue to be a good mom. You can lead in this, too, by talking to her and then to the kids about how this is an issue between you and her, not the kids. They should not take sides in this, and you both want the kids to have great relationships with both parents. This can short circuit the kids from feeling like they are supposed to choose sides or make judgments.

As far as not hurting the wife, well I understand but also know it is misplaced. My wife has many great attributes, but she also has some significant negatives due to her child sex abuse history. Her issues are not caused intentionally by her. I don't want to be yet another person who treats her badly! Your wife, too, has issues stemming from her upbringing.

Here's the thing, though. Your wife (and mine) choose not to address their issues due to some form of selfishness. Maybe they are just afraid. Maybe they have a different type of love for us than we do for them. Whatever the reason is, they are not stepping up as responsible adults to address known issues which they clearly understand are harming their husband. Your wife is choosing to let you suffer rather than make the effort to resolve her part of the problem.

My sister is a psychologist and LMFT who gave me a great analogy. An alcoholic didn't choose to have the biological weakness, and perhaps had no idea how deeply they were getting into addiction along the way. Once they become aware of it, they have a responsibility to address it. Many utilize rehab and recover. Some refuse to try at all. Others try but cannot stay sober even though many people are working hard to help them.

At some point we would give up on our alcoholic spouse if they either refused rehab or repeatedly failed at rehab. We still love them, but they have a defect which we are not responsible for and have no obligation to be abused by.


----------



## Thor

Speedbump, I can predict that you are going to lose control over what your children are exposed to and what your wife does with them. She is on a course where she knows best, and has no respect or tolerance for your opinions or beliefs.

The best way you can have the influence on your children that you want, is for you to split and get 50/50 custody.

Another choice is for you to have some hard discussions with your wife. Set some nuclear boundaries with her. Let her know these are nuclear, and be ready to apply the consequences if she crosses the line. You cannot control her, and she can use deception, so this is not foolproof. Plus, she may prefer to stay married but doesn't fear divorce.

I had several discussions with my wife about needing total honesty in our marriage, and specifically mentioned medical care of our children as an area I needed full disclosure on. She knew I was vehemently opposed to one particular risky med. Then I came home 4 hours early from a trip and caught her in the midst of sneaking around and having put our son on the med while I was gone.

Nope, you cannot control your wife. You have to let her know what is and is not acceptable for the kids to be exposed to or taught. You have to let her know what the consequences are, and be ready to enforce it.


----------



## speeedbump

It was a rough night.

On Monday we had started an argument. She was upset and told me I was a bad father, I was selfish and I never did anything to help out or show her love or appreciation. She got upset and hung up on me. The conversation was never finished. Since then she had been acting like nothing happened and everything was OK. I couldn't let it go so easily, and I have been withdrawn.

So last night she asked me what my problem was, why I was acting so cold. I told her I was still hurting from what she said on Monday, and then it snowballed. Bolstered with confidence from the positive responses on here and feeling encouraged and determined not to be a weak pushover, I stood my ground.

We argued for a couple hours and then resumed again this morning. During the course of the "conversation," she grabbed my head and yelled in my face. She told me she hated me. She told me to shut the f*@k up. Pinched my arm as hard as she could. She threw things. Said she needed to break something. She stormed off. She told me I was selfish. That I wasn't putting forth any effort in the marriage and I was expecting her to change something that she couldn't. Said she refuses oral sex because it is disgusting, gross and degrading. Says she has been trying hard to make an effort to have sex more often and show affection and that it's never enough and I'll never be satisfied and my expectations are unreasonable and that none of her married friends have sex more than once a week. Said it would be easier for me to fix my faith that it would be for her to fix the physical pain of sex and lack of desire. That I need to fix the emotional aspects of our relationship before I expect her to feel close to me and in the mood. I told her that I had tried that for years and it has never worked. There's always another condition to be met. She brought up our sacred vows...for better or worse, 'til death....again saying I am a selfish bastard for wanting to break up our marriage ant hurt the kids just because I'm horny. And that I'll never be satisfied because my expectations are unreasonable. Went around and around on why I thought we needed counseling or a neutral 3rd party. Asked her (again) to read some things.

It ended up with her curled up in a ball crying and me feeling like a complete selfish ******* because I did that to her It really hurts me to see her like that.

This morning she was a little more calm. She decided that I'm asking too much from her because I am unsatisfied and there's too much emptiness from a lack of other relationships in my life. That I don't have many friends and have drifted apart from my family.

This is probably true. I acknowledged it.

The truth is the relationship with my family was also hurt by religion. They are all still extremely religious and since I am not, it has driven a wedge between us. I also don't have many friends. I used to make friends through athletic activities. We moved away from my old friends a couple years ago and since she prevents me from going out and doing those things, I don't have many opportunities to make new friends. She wants me to be friends with our neighbors, but they are all very religious.

But the truth is, I am an introvert by nature. I don't feel a need for a lot of conversation, social interaction or hanging out. I do believe that if we had a healthy sex life, I would be a perfectly happy person.

The bottom line is I tried my best to let her know that I was hurting and my needs weren't being met. That they have never really been met since we got married. She refuses to accept that for countless reasons: My expectations are unreasonable. She's doing all she can because of her medical condition cannot do any more. I am an ******* for not recognizing this. She doesn't feel close to me emotionally. I've stopped trying. She'll never be the person who is comfortable talking about sex, joking, flirting, innuendos...

Finished with reminding me of our sacred vows...in sickness and health, 'til death... How could I destroy our family and hurt our children because I want more sex?

So here I am, feeling like the worst person in the world this morning.


----------



## speeedbump

Nikita2270 said:


> ...
> However, its not reasonable that she refuses normal marital sex or doesn't consult you on the budget and makes other critical decisions without your input. Its also completely unreasonable that when you want to discuss these things that she intimidates you by getting judgy and angry. These are major manipulation tactics. Please read the following link: Psychological manipulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Ultimately, you can want to save your marriage and should try every avenue to do so but it sounds like she's very rigid and unwilling to find ways to meet your needs. Its sounds like she's very self-focused.


Thanks, I read the info you shared. Although a lot of the external symptoms are present, I don't think she is consciously or maliciously doing these things.

Maybe I'm naive, but I think she's yelling and crying because she is really hurt. Not just turning the tears on to manipulate me. 

She does honestly believe that she has done everything she can given her physical condition, and she honestly thinks that my expectations for intimacy in a marriage are totally unrealistic.

The real problem that I see is that she seems unwilling to come into contact with anything that would challenge those "facts."


----------



## WorkingOnMe

You did well. You stood up for yourself. She's the one being unreasonable. She herself said that if you cowed to her religious beliefs that she'd give it up happily 3 times a week. That right there says that her medical issue is not a true obstacle. She's just trying more of the same manipulative bs. Oh ya, and once a person screams in your face that they hate you, it's really over. She's not showing any love at all. She's the bad person here, not you.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

By the way, what you're going through this morning, this very instant, is a test. If you back down now, you'll fail the test and things will never get better. This is your chance to show her what kind of man you are.


----------



## Thor

speeedbump said:


> Finished with reminding me of our sacred vows...in sickness and health, 'til death... How could I destroy our family and hurt our children because I want more sex?
> 
> So here I am, feeling like the worst person in the world this morning.


Did she vow "To Have and To Hold"? That means she'll have sex with you. And it means she'll comfort you and support you emotionally.

Did she vow something along the lines of "Love, Honor, and Cherish"? It doesn't sound likes she's exhibiting any of that.


----------



## Thor

speeedbump said:


> During the course of the "conversation," she grabbed my head and yelled in my face. She told me she hated me. She told me to shut the f*@k up. Pinched my arm as hard as she could. She threw things. Said she needed to break something.





WorkingOnMe said:


> By the way, what you're going through this morning, this very instant, is a test. If you back down now, you'll fail the test and things will never get better. This is your chance to show her what kind of man you are.


Yes, and it is a bad test when it becomes physically abusive. This crosses the line imho. It was a test as to what level of abuse you will tolerate, and you tolerated being hit, pinched, and screamed at. You tolerated her throwing objects.

I recommend from here on out you have a VAR (Voice Activated Recorder) running when you have serious conversations with her. There are apps for your phone, or you can buy a dedicated small unit (some VARs are disguised as pens). Fellow member here named Weightlifter is the expert and has specific advice in his posts on which brand and model of VAR and batteries to get.

You can even secretly video her if she rants at you again. You can play it back to show her how out of control she was.

Also, if this does go to separation or divorce you now have a very very clear picture of how she is going to act. You NEED a VAR to protect yourself. I'd bet she makes some form of false allegations against you, or baits you into defending yourself. BE VERY CAREFUL about making any statements to police if it comes to that. I know this is probably not in the immediate future, but learn it now. If she calls the police, never ever admit to touching her. Even if in self defense because she was clawing at you or throwing hard objects at you, the law will PRESUME you to have been the aggressor. You'll get the ride to jail, and you'll suffer all the consequences of domestic violence charges. VAR VAR VAR if you start to get to discussions about separation.

If she continues these rants and the physical violence against you, get them on video somehow. It could be critical in your divorce and especially for child custody.

Really, what she did was over the line. You are an abused spouse. She has verbally abused you and emotionally abused you before. Now she upped the level dramatically to physical abuse and strong emotional abuse. 

You actually believe you are the bad guy for wanting regular sex with your wife and trying to have a discussion about the state of your marriage!

I think you should seek counseling for yourself. You probably have EAP through work, which is free and is truly confidential. Your employer will never know you went. A therapist will help you put your wife's behavior into perspective.


----------



## speeedbump

Thor said:


> Did she vow "To Have and To Hold"? That means she'll have sex with you. And it means she'll comfort you and support you emotionally.


In her interpretation, it doesn't specify frequency. If it's a couple times a month, she can check off that box and her obligation is met.


----------



## speeedbump

Thor said:


> Yes, and it is a bad test when it becomes physically abusive. This crosses the line imho. It was a test as to what level of abuse you will tolerate, and you tolerated being hit, pinched, and screamed at. You tolerated her throwing objects.
> 
> ...
> 
> I think you should seek counseling for yourself. You probably have EAP through work, which is free and is truly confidential. Your employer will never know you went. A therapist will help you put your wife's behavior into perspective.


Luckily when she was throwing things there was nothing hard or heavy at hand. It was just pillows and blankets. She did break the skin when she pinched me. I didn't really feel abused or in any danger. But maybe I should take this stuff more seriously.

I do have an EAP through work. I actually went to some sessions with a therapist last year and it validated my feelings. It just wasn't enough at that point to overcome the guilt so I could take action.


----------



## Iver

_...and since she prevents me from going out and doing those things, I don't have many opportunities to make new friends._

You need to take back your life. The days of her "preventing" you from having a life are over. Join a bowling league, start up at a dojo (w/the children maybe), start with a running group. Anything to get yourself out there.

FYI, if you physically engaged with her the way she did with you there could be jail time in your future. Physically harming a spouse in many peoples minds is grounds for a divorce. 

My only recommendation is to meet with her pastor and get counseling. Perhaps if it's from her church leader she will take it more seriously. 

Unfortunately your wife does not seem like she is willing to change - I would start looking to consult with a good divorce attorney. 

(Do you know if she has ever expressed any interest in any man? Even if it's admiring say Brad Pitt or George Clooney? I may be off base here but I wouldn't be surprised if she is deep down - and won't ever admit it - not heterosexual. It would certainly explain a lot.)


----------



## speeedbump

Iver said:


> Do you know if she has ever expressed any interest in any man? Even if it's admiring say Brad Pitt or George Clooney? I may be off base here but I wouldn't be surprised if she is deep down - and won't ever admit it - not heterosexual. It would certainly explain a lot.


Ha, I've often wondered that and even said it out loud to her. I think that if she didn't think it was so sinful that she could be a lesbian (not that there's anything wrong with that). Maybe not a very good one since she thinks going down is disgusting.

She very rarely expresses any interest in men. Occasionally she'll make a comment when she's watching The Bachelorette that one of the guys is cute or something. I don't think she ever masturbates or has any fantasies. I think she's really more asexual at this point.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

speeedbump said:


> It was a rough night.
> 
> On Monday we had started an argument. She was upset and told me I was a bad father, I was selfish and I never did anything to help out or show her love or appreciation. She got upset and hung up on me. The conversation was never finished. Since then she had been acting like nothing happened and everything was OK. I couldn't let it go so easily, and I have been withdrawn.
> 
> So last night she asked me what my problem was, why I was acting so cold. I told her I was still hurting from what she said on Monday, and then it snowballed. Bolstered with confidence from the positive responses on here and feeling encouraged and determined not to be a weak pushover, I stood my ground.
> 
> We argued for a couple hours and then resumed again this morning. During the course of the "conversation," she grabbed my head and yelled in my face. She told me she hated me. She told me to shut the f*@k up. Pinched my arm as hard as she could. She threw things. Said she needed to break something. She stormed off. She told me I was selfish. That I wasn't putting forth any effort in the marriage and I was expecting her to change something that she couldn't. Said she refuses oral sex because it is disgusting, gross and degrading. Says she has been trying hard to make an effort to have sex more often and show affection and that it's never enough and I'll never be satisfied and my expectations are unreasonable and that none of her married friends have sex more than once a week. Said it would be easier for me to fix my faith that it would be for her to fix the physical pain of sex and lack of desire. That I need to fix the emotional aspects of our relationship before I expect her to feel close to me and in the mood. I told her that I had tried that for years and it has never worked. There's always another condition to be met. She brought up our sacred vows...for better or worse, 'til death....again saying I am a selfish bastard for wanting to break up our marriage ant hurt the kids just because I'm horny. And that I'll never be satisfied because my expectations are unreasonable. Went around and around on why I thought we needed counseling or a neutral 3rd party. Asked her (again) to read some things.
> 
> It ended up with her curled up in a ball crying and me feeling like a complete selfish ******* because I did that to her It really hurts me to see her like that.
> 
> This morning she was a little more calm. She decided that I'm asking too much from her because I am unsatisfied and there's too much emptiness from a lack of other relationships in my life. That I don't have many friends and have drifted apart from my family.
> 
> This is probably true. I acknowledged it.
> 
> The truth is the relationship with my family was also hurt by religion. They are all still extremely religious and since I am not, it has driven a wedge between us. I also don't have many friends. I used to make friends through athletic activities. We moved away from my old friends a couple years ago and since she prevents me from going out and doing those things, I don't have many opportunities to make new friends. She wants me to be friends with our neighbors, but they are all very religious.
> 
> But the truth is, I am an introvert by nature. I don't feel a need for a lot of conversation, social interaction or hanging out. I do believe that if we had a healthy sex life, I would be a perfectly happy person.
> 
> The bottom line is I tried my best to let her know that I was hurting and my needs weren't being met. That they have never really been met since we got married. She refuses to accept that for countless reasons: My expectations are unreasonable. She's doing all she can because of her medical condition cannot do any more. I am an ******* for not recognizing this. She doesn't feel close to me emotionally. I've stopped trying. She'll never be the person who is comfortable talking about sex, joking, flirting, innuendos...
> 
> Finished with reminding me of our sacred vows...in sickness and health, 'til death... How could I destroy our family and hurt our children because I want more sex?
> 
> So here I am, feeling like the worst person in the world this morning.


So let me get this straight. This woman screamed in your face, pinched you, and threw an F bomb at you, and YOU FEEL GUILTY??? DUDE! What is wrong with this picture! Knock off the damn guilt! She was WAY WAY WAY out of line! Your expectations are not unrealistic, and I dont believe for one second that her sexual problem is medical! She is too damn uptight because she doesnt want it. 

Stop it with the guilt! Stop being such a pushover, and get out of this joke of a marriage! Go find yourself a real woman!


----------



## happy as a clam

speeedbump said:


> It ended up with her curled up in a ball crying and me feeling like a complete selfish ******* because I did that to her It really hurts me to see her like that.


Oh, for God's sake speedbump (and I realize you don't even believe in Him)...

She is the QUEEN of manipulation... pinching you, screeching at you, telling you oral sex is disgusting, and then making YOU feel like a "complete selfish a$$hole" because *you* "did that to her"?!?!

Are you effing kidding me?!

I've been supporting you all along. But you have GOT to wake up and grow some b*lls and LOSE this guilt trip that is fostering this whole sick dynamic.

Your wife is nuts. Just like my ex was. They are iNCAPABLE of being someone's "other half", life partner, sexual playmate, confidante... she is too busy undermining you to give you ANY semblance of a marriage partner.

Divorce this wench.


----------



## happy as a clam

P.S. I was a former teacher with a Master's Degree in Education. I GET the whole "homeschooling" thing... public schools have their own set of problems. I basically homeschooled my kids *during the summer* with my own "Summer Learning" program.

I am a conservative. Yet I believe in alternative medicine *coupled with* traditional Western medicine, kind of an East meets West philosophy. If you break your arm, or your tooth is rotting out, NO herb in the world is going to "fix" it. One must be sensible. Your wife's recent venture into the fringes of internet gurus, conspiracy theorists, off-the-grid mentality is going to turn your kids into head-rotted, zombiefied, militia-esque little people. Is this what you want for your kids?

You are worried that if you divorce her your kids will end up back in public schools.

By my way of thinking, that is the BEST thing that could happen for your kids right now.

Sorry if this is harsh. Major trigger topic for me...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

happy as a clam said:


> Oh, for God's sake speedbump (and I realize you don't even believe in Him)...
> 
> She is the QUEEN of manipulation... pinching you, screeching at you, telling you oral sex is disgusting, and then making YOU feel like a "complete selfish a$$hole" because *you* "did that to her"?!?!
> 
> Are you effing kidding me?!
> 
> I've been supporting you all along. But you have GOT to wake up and grow some b*lls and LOSE this guilt trip that is fostering this whole sick dynamic.
> 
> Your wife is nuts. Just like my ex was. They are iNCAPABLE of being someone's "other half", life partner, sexual playmate, confidante... she is too busy undermining you to give you ANY semblance of a marriage partner.
> 
> Divorce this wench.


:iagree: 

As usual, Clam and I are in agreement!


----------



## speeedbump

Something must have gotten through to her. I got a text from her saying she's sorry and she will try to meet my needs better. It's extremely rare to get an apology from her. While I appreciate it, I'm wary of getting sucked back in to the status quo. I don't know how much hope I have of seeing any real change.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

speeedbump said:


> Something must have gotten through to her. I got a text from her saying she's sorry and she will try to meet my needs better. It's extremely rare to get an apology from her. While I appreciate it, I'm wary of getting sucked back in to the status quo. I don't know how much hope I have of seeing any real change.


I am glad to see that you are wary about this. She isnt going to change. I give it 2 weeks or less. I can remember being stuck in the same type of pattern with my ex. Things get better short term and you are so glad when they do, then the sh!t hits the fan again. And again. And again.


----------



## Iver

speeedbump said:


> Something must have gotten through to her. I got a text from her saying she's sorry and she will try to meet my needs better. It's extremely rare to get an apology from her. While I appreciate it, I'm wary of getting sucked back in to the status quo. I don't know how much hope I have of seeing any real change.


Seeing a doctor to address her medical issues is a must. If she won't do that then I don't see much hope.

MC is a also must. If she won't do that then let her know divoce is coming.

I'd also start with being very clear with her that she is not at all living up to responsibilities in your marriage. Do not tolerate her nonsense any more.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

speeedbump said:


> Thanks, I read the info you shared. Although a lot of the external symptoms are present, I don't think she is consciously or maliciously doing these things.
> 
> *Maybe I'm naive, but I think she's yelling and crying because she is really hurt. Not just turning the tears on to manipulate me. *
> 
> She does honestly believe that she has done everything she can given her physical condition, and she honestly thinks that my expectations for intimacy in a marriage are totally unrealistic.
> 
> The real problem that I see is that she seems unwilling to come into contact with anything that would challenge those "facts."


WRONG. That is exactly what she does. And I say again...she has no "physical condition". She is all uptight, therefore making it painful, because she flat out does NOT want to have sex. The proof? The THREE YEARS you went without consummating the marriage. 

Sorry I backtracked, was just re-reading...


----------



## Jellybeans

Why get married at all if you're not gonna bone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## speeedbump

Jellybeans said:


> Why get married at all if you're not gonna bone?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We were good young christians who waited until marriage. Didn't find out until after the wedding that she had no desire to bone. The first few years, I was still a good christian young man, thought divorce wasn't an option and suffered patiently. This seems to have established the pattern.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Jellybeans said:


> Why get married at all if you're not gonna bone?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Jb has quite a way with words.


----------



## happy as a clam

speedbump... IMHO those three "celibate" years were ALREADY the death knell for your marriage.

She manipulated you back then based on her effed up "Christian" values (she couldn't be more wrong, btw -- she should read the Bible more carefully), you caved, she got her way. That set the WHOLE pattern for the next 15 years.

You really need her to read some books about sex in marriage, watch some sex how-to videos (not porn) with married people having and experiencing a rich sex life. And she HAS to go to marriage counseling to hear a NEUTRAL third party tell her that she is WAY off base here.

I didn't think LD stories could get much worse than mine. Sadly, yours is


----------



## Thor

speeedbump said:


> Something must have gotten through to her. I got a text from her saying she's sorry and she will try to meet my needs better. It's extremely rare to get an apology from her. While I appreciate it, I'm wary of getting sucked back in to the status quo. I don't know how much hope I have of seeing any real change.


This could be "Hoovering". A technique to pull you back in after throwing a total sh1t fit. These are things people with personality disorders do.

She may toss some sex at you, too.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Thor said:


> This could be "Hoovering". A technique to pull you back in after throwing a total sh1t fit. These are things people with personality disorders do.
> 
> She may toss some sex at you, too.


Hoovers: Don't Let the Crazy Suck You Back In | Shrink4Men


----------



## Thor

speeedbump said:


> Ha, I've often wondered that and even said it out loud to her. I think that if she didn't think it was so sinful that she could be a lesbian (not that there's anything wrong with that). Maybe not a very good one since she thinks going down is disgusting.
> 
> She very rarely expresses any interest in men. Occasionally she'll make a comment when she's watching The Bachelorette that one of the guys is cute or something. I don't think she ever masturbates or has any fantasies. I think she's really more asexual at this point.


When I was dating my wife in college, sex was frequent and she was pretty unrestrained. She had several lovers before me that she has admitted to, though I suspect there were more.

When we got engaged the sex slowed dramatically. But there were logical reasons such as being really busy senior year in college, and both of us stressed about me finding a job and her getting into grad school.

Then we got married and the sex stopped almost totally. She turned me down 99% of the time, so I learned not to ask.

I started to wonder wth did I do? And, wth happened to her? Was she really a lesbian? Did she have some kind of mental picture of marriage which was sterile and sexless? Did she feel too intellectual for something as base as sex now that she was in grad school? Did something medical occur which killed her libido? Was she asexual, and only used sex to catch me?

Hey, you're not the only one who has tried to explain away why his wife doesn't want sex! It turned out my wife was abused as a young child. She denied it 3 times when I asked her early on, but then 29 years into marriage she volunteered it when I was having a serious conversation with her about ending the marriage. You are not qualified to really determine what is going on with her or to fix it.

The bottom line is that she is *abnormal*. This is not going to gradually get better, nor is it going to resolve on its own. 

Your desires are *normal*. There is nothing sinful or dirty or disgusting about what you want from your wife.

Nobody is perfect, so you also certainly have some contributions to the bad state of the marriage. But that in no way excuses her issues, nor does it absolve her of a responsibility to you to make a strong good faith effort to meet your needs.

I'll go a bit further and say that you have every right to your needs _even if your needs are abnormal or unreasonable_. I don't think you are abnormal or unreasonable, but the point is that you have the right to need what you need, and to desire what you desire. It is wrong to shame you or bully you for having your desires. Worse yet is that I think she really understands that she is abnormal when it comes to sex, so she is deflecting blame onto you. That is nowhere near loving or respecting you!


----------



## Thor

Jellybeans said:


> Why get married at all if you're not gonna bone?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The only thing marriage offers which cannot be found elsewhere is legitimate sex. From a Biblical or traditional moral standpoint, every other benefit which can be found in marriage can also be found outside of marriage. Friendship, companionship, etc.


----------



## speeedbump

Thor said:


> The only thing marriage offers which cannot be found elsewhere is legitimate sex. From a Biblical or traditional moral standpoint, every other benefit which can be found in marriage can also be found outside of marriage. Friendship, companionship, etc.


Agreed. I have tried to explain to her that while I appreciate the things she does around the house, I can pay someone else to clean. I can pay someone else to cook. I can pay someone else to watch the kids. But sex/intimacy? That's the one thing that I can only get from her.


----------



## Thor

I've had all those conversations with my wife, too. She really is not equipped to understand it on other than a detached intellectual level.

Absent good therapy, your wife is not going to change. She has severely distorted thoughts and attitudes about sex and also about what a marriage is.


----------



## Machiavelli

2X4s for all, coming right up.



speeedbump said:


> There's really two main issues and they have spawned multiple other things and gradually sucked the life out of our marriage.
> 
> 
> I don't believe in God





So? What's that got to do with sex in marriage?



speeedbump said:


> [*]She doesn't believe in sex



Then divorce her, because she is in violation of the marriage contract and that contract is null and void.



speeedbump said:


> We got married young. I was a good christian boy and we waited until marriage to have sex. There was some making out and heavy petting before hand, but that's about it.


Excellent. Especially if you got married at the age discussed in I Corinthians 7:36 (puberty). I'm not sure how you could do that, though, since it's illegal north of the Rio Grande.



speeedbump said:


> Then came the wedding night and there was no sex. She was tired and self-conscious and cried. I didn't push it. No sex on the honeymoon and not for the first three years of our marriage. It was killing me, but I was a good christian boy and didn't consider divorce an option.


Being a "good christian boy" has nothing to do with you tolerating the intolerable. Divorce is always an option and so is legal annulment due to failure to consummate. You say you were a "christian," yet you seem to be singularly lacking in knowledge of what the Bible has to say on the subject of marriage. I've never encountered this before. However, you have certainly imbibed at the barrel of feminism to tolerate this situation for five minutes.



speeedbump said:


> Somewhere before our fourth anniversary, we finally started having sex. I think she knew she was about to lose me. It was always uncomfortable for her though.


Here's a clue that applies to the great majority of women: as you move away, they are more attracted to you. Which is just what happened to you.

Which brings up the subject of being sexually attractive to women. How many times do women hit on you each month? How tall are you and what is your weight? Briefly outline your workout program and we can critique it to increase your attraction. Attracting females is scientific.



speeedbump said:


> At the best couple years in our marriage we probably averaged 2-3 times a month, but it was always me initiating. she did it out of a sense of obligation.


Most sex is initiated by men after marriage, since the woman got what she wanted when the marriage occurred. Marriage is an exchange: protection and property for the woman in exchange for sex and legitimate kids for the man. 



speeedbump said:


> She's never had much libido


She's never had much libido for *you*. That may or may not be true for other guys, but maybe she's not in those guys league, so you got the call. Did you pursue her or did she pursue you?



speeedbump said:


> and the combination of endometriosis, body image issues and a strict religious upbringing that led her to believe that sex is dirty give her just about every possible reason not to want sex.


Endometriosis? What treatments has she had?

Body image, huh? Just how fat is she? 

Strict religious upbringing? The Puritans were plenty strict and failure to put out sexually was grounds for immediate divorce. That's because Paul requires wives to put out, and husbands too, pretty much on spousal demand. Since you were a "good christian boy", you should be familiar with the first commandment found in the Bible...what is it? Hint: she's mostly violated the spirit, if not the letter.



speeedbump said:


> I've done everything I could to try to improve the situation. I've taken good care of myself, read every book I could find on the topic and tried to jump through all her hoops in hopes of marginally increasing my odds of getting a more fulfilling intimate relationship. Any remaining spark was killed when our kids were born. Then I (and our relationship) went to the bottom of her priority list.


That's because your wife is a terrible excuse for a woman and a Christian. She is in rebellion against her husband and God. She's in clear violation of whole Bible passages neither of you have ever read. Basically, she married you because either you were the best she could get (but she wasn't sexually attracted to you) or she figured you would be a good beast of burden and meet her material needs while she sat in front of the tube and ate bonbons.



speeedbump said:


> Somewhere along the way I lost my faith and became an atheist. I feel bad about this and did everything I could to try to hang onto or reacquire my faith but I couldn't. She married me assuming she was getting a good christian man and that was her number one criteria in a spouse.


She's been anything but a good christian woman, so why would she imagine she deserves a good christian man?



speeedbump said:


> I feel terrible about this but I can't change it. I had no intention of misleading her. I was raised in a strict religious cocoon and never had to question my beliefs. I still support her by going to church with them every week.
> 
> So this has given her another reason to not feel close to me and further kills an already non-existent libido.


Unfortunately for her, Peter lays down the instructions for how women are supposed to deal with this situation. My guess is she's never read it, good Christian that she is. Now, if she has read it, things are even worse, because that means she's in full on rebellion against you in violation of the plain language of scripture.



speeedbump said:


> She's a good person


I'm not feeling it through anything you've written.



speeedbump said:


> and I still love her. She's an excellent mother but our relationship is like roommates at best. We have sex occasionally but it is always of the obligatory/guilt/duty driven, get him to shut up variety, which is better than nothing, but not much.


Then it's time to add more women to your harem. Your wife should understand, since this is a very biblical thing to do.



speeedbump said:


> Realizing that there are legitimate issues for her lack of desire, I've tried to be patient and understanding but what makes it difficult is that she will not admit that there is a problem. She told me she'd be happy if she never had sex again--with me or anyone else.


That sounds like a wife involved in an affair. A very standard line.



speeedbump said:


> She recoils at my touch. She thinks once a month is more than enough. When I tell her that it hurts me to go more than 4 weeks without sex, she tells me that it's my problem. FYI, although intercourse is usually uncomfortable for her, she does orgasm almost every time. I do everything I can to make it pleasurable for her. she gets countless massages as well. I admit I get resentful and shorter tempered when I'm so frustrated by a lack of intimacy. I'm not always the most cheerful person and am sometimes withdrawn.


Seriously? Quit drinking the kool aid. You're nothing but a paycheck to her.



speeedbump said:


> The other big problem is that she refuses to take any action to try to improve our situation. She will not go to counseling with me. I have begged many times. Last year I went to counseling by myself. She won't even read a book for me. She says nothing can get better until I fix my religion problem and marriage counseling won't be able to do that so there's no point.


Wrong. I Peter 3:1-2. Look, she's totally in violation of the precepts she claims to follow. She's no more a Christian than you are. But let us just forget scripture and spiritual beliefs. The bottom line is that she's simply repelled by you. You are basically subservient to her whims, which is very unattractive, but she was never, ever sexually attracted to you. 



speeedbump said:


> I've read tons of threads on this website and many others. I've read MMSLP, HNHN, Too Good To Leave, To Bad To stay, The Five Love Languages and probably a dozen other marriage/relationship books.


If you've read MMSLP and paid attention, you should have a good idea of how female attraction works. So why are you behaving in an unattractive manner?



speeedbump said:


> I'm in the best shape of my life. I make a good living. I am a good father. I come straight home from work every day. I spend my weekends with the family. I help out around the house. I do woodworking and landscaping for her. I rarely go out (she resents me when I do).


She doesn't find you attractive. You're under her thumb, which is unattractive in and of itself. 



speeedbump said:


> I've tried to discuss it with her. I've tried to tell her how I'm feeling. I don't know what else I can do. When we start talking, she escalates quickly. She tells me I'm a bad father and a terrible spouse and I never do anything for her and I'm not meeting any of her needs.


Women don't want a man who talks about the relationship. They want a man that other women want. Since your wife thinks no other woman will have you, she doesn't want you either.



speeedbump said:


> If we didn't have two awesome kids, it would be easier to leave. But I don't want to hurt her and I don't want to wreck their life. Anytime I think I'm ready to leave, I'm overcome by guilt.


Guilt for what? Do you think it's a thought crime to imagine getting out from under this harpy? 

You have picked up some strange beliefs about men and women and their respective roles and you need to get your mind clear.

I doubt you can be happy with this woman, but even if it were possible, you're going about it all wrong.


----------



## Emerald

Add "Co-Dependent No More" to your reading list.

My advice is to get into individual counseling to help you with your guilt about leaving your marriage (assuming that is what you want.)

Stop discussing the "state of your marriage" particularly the not enough sex part with your wife. She is the master of guilt-trips & only makes you feel worse.

You need to accept that you will feel guilty if you leave. Most of us who have left long-term marriages w/children do/did. Hell, I left an abusive, controlling man after 22 yrs. & I STILL feel guilty...& that was 6 yrs. ago. I deal with it.


----------



## Emerald

I also want to add that you probably want her to agree with you that the marriage is not good am I right? An agreeable/amicable split?

Not going to happen. Her needs are met so stop trying to get her to agree with you.

At some point in the future, you will have the guts to leave.

You are not there yet.


----------



## Thor

"God Shaped Hole" by Chuck Cannon is one of my favorite songs. Great song, great songwriter.

Chuck Cannon Songs | ReverbNation

God-Shaped Hole
by Chuck Cannon

I tried to fix you with forgiveness
I tried to heal your heart with love
I tried to sweeten up your bitterness
But I could never do enough
The place inside of you that's broken
Goes all the way down to your soul
And I'm a fool for ever hopin'
That I could fill a God-shaped hole

I can't roll the stone away
And this ain't no resurrection day
I'm not a saint and life ain't fair
But this just ain't my cross to bear
And I can see, it's time for me
To set a slightly lower goal
'Cause I can't fill a God-shaped hole.

And I've been tryin'to be your savior
And I've been feelin'crucified
I did not ever want to waiver
Or cry these tears that I have cried
I need a better way to love you
I need to play a different role
'Cause after all, I'm only human
And I can't fill a God-shaped hole

And I can't roll the stone away
And this ain't no resurrection day
I'm not a saint, I don't have a prayer
This just ain't my cross to bear
So I can see, it's time for me
To set a slightly lower goal
'Cause I can't fill a God-sized hole.
No, I can't fill a God-shaped hole


(The whole CD is great. Can be purchased at CDbaby Chuck Cannon | God Shaped Hole | CD Baby Music Store. I have no affiliation, just love the album)


----------



## Jellybeans

WorkingOnMe said:


> Jb has quite a way with words.


Lol. I mean, I'm just saying.


----------



## poppyseed

speeedbump said:


> Agreed.* I have tried to explain to her* that while I appreciate the things she does around the house, I can pay someone else to clean. I can pay someone else to cook. I can pay someone else to watch the kids. But sex/intimacy? That's the one thing that I can only get from her.


I have looked through this thread..now you are on page 5. So..you received tons of great advice, brilliant insights and logical suggestions so far. What have you done so far differently since? 

Stop try to reason with your wife. Reasoning or trying to apply any sort of logic won't do for someone, who has a personality disorder. (you must have guessed it already?) That's what you are dealing with. You need to see a bigger picture. She had her plans - find an easygoing, laidback guy who's going to put up with her "antics" and she found you (being a nice "Christian" guy) oblivious of her plans. These plans are nothing "godly" by the way.

Make realistic plans for yourself and follow them. No more "talk" - no more trying to fix things: time for some Realistic ACTION. If you are unable to do this, seek a therapist. This is a co-dependent relationship and you also have deep seated issues to deal with.


----------



## speeedbump

Machiavelli said:


> 2X4s for all, coming right up.
> 
> ...
> 
> Which brings up the subject of being sexually attractive to women. How many times do women hit on you each month? How tall are you and what is your weight? Briefly outline your workout program and we can critique it to increase your attraction. Attracting females is scientific.
> 
> 
> Endometriosis? What treatments has she had?
> 
> Body image, huh? Just how fat is she?
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> That sounds like a wife involved in an affair. A very standard line.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> If you've read MMSLP and paid attention, you should have a good idea of how female attraction works. So why are you behaving in an unattractive manner?


There's some harsh truths in your post that I have noted, but not all of your assumptions apply. It's been a while since I read MMSLP, maybe I need to review it again, but I'm not some short fat bald guy like you are assuming. I'm over 6' tall, 185# and work out 5 times a week. I don't need help with an exercise program. I get plenty of attention from the opposite sex. I have a successful career. Objectively speaking, my sexual market value or sex rank is not an issue. She didn't settle for me because she thought she couldn't do better.

Although she might be overplaying some of the physical issues, it's not completely made up like some of you are implying. She has had multiple laparoscopies, Lupron treatment, had an ovary removed and then a partial hysterectomy. You might want to google _endometriosis_.

She does have body image issues. This has been the case even when she was young. She was the homecoming queen ferchrissakes but didn't like her body then. Now she's probably carrying an extra 40 # or so. She says she hates her body and doesn't like to be seen naked.

I don't think there's a point to debating bible passages here. Yes, I was young and naive when I got married. I wasn't ignorant of what the bible said about the roles of man and wife. But as far as I'm concerned that is neither here nor there. Quoting scripture to her is not going to add value now.

And no, she is not having an affair.

Yes, I need to stand up for myself, shed the guilt and stop taking crap from her.


----------



## speeedbump

Emerald said:


> I also want to add that you probably want her to agree with you that the marriage is not good am I right? An agreeable/amicable split?
> 
> Not going to happen. Her needs are met so stop trying to get her to agree with you.
> 
> At some point in the future, you will have the guts to leave.
> 
> You are not there yet.


Yes, with as much as she complains about me, you'd think it would be easy to get her to admit that she's not happy and a split would be good for both of us. But her needs are being met very well (spiritual needs aside), so that's when she goes back to the "sacred vows."


----------



## speeedbump

poppyseed said:


> I have looked through this thread..now you are on page 5. So..you received tons of great advice, brilliant insights and logical suggestions so far. What have you done so far differently since?
> 
> ...
> 
> Make realistic plans for yourself and follow them. No more "talk" - no more trying to fix things: time for some Realistic ACTION. If you are unable to do this, seek a therapist. This is a co-dependent relationship and you also have deep seated issues to deal with.


Well, it's only been a few days so I haven't gotten everything fixed yet, but there have been some significant changes already. In the past, after a blowup like we had last week, I would usually be the one to feel bad and apologize and try to smooth things over. I didn't do that this time and she came back to me with the apology and pledge to try harder. We had some serious conversations and I stood my ground. I am more hardened to the tears and emotional outbursts and I think she has noticed. Our dialogue has been much less emotionally charged.

I went out a couple times this weekend. I told her my plans and didn't ask for permission.

She has been more affectionate (like cuddling up on the sofa, holding my hand...) and initiated sex twice over the weekend. This in itself is a major accomplishment.

I'm under no illusions that things are fixed or that there will be lasting change, but so far it's about as much as I could expect after a few days. I'm realizing that I am ready to leave if there are not real and sustained changes in the relationship. This gives me significant leverage that was missing in the past.

I'll be looking for support to keep me from backpedaling and falling back into old routines. Thanks again to everyone for the encouragement and advice.


----------



## LongWalk

Writing and reading hard truths is changing you. Your wife initiated sex because emotional and physical abuse failed.

Your discussions about faith are absurd. Does she believe she is going to Heaven and you to Hell?

If so, why cling together here on earth when you will be separate for all eternity?

File for divorce and don't give a penny more than Texas family law mandates.

Once she us served, you can gi to MC
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Iver

So you're 6' something and 185# and work out 5 days a week and she's 40#'s overweight.

That seems to be an odd mish-mash...I find most couples look the same fitness wise. You'll see two chubsters together or two cross-fit bodies together usually.

Can you address this somehow? Go to the gym together or get her interested in some dance aerobics or barre classes? Losing the weight, getting a nice body would help her mood and health tremendously I would think.


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## speeedbump

Iver said:


> So you're 6' something and 185# and work out 5 days a week and she's 40#'s overweight.
> 
> That seems to be an odd mish-mash...I find most couple look the same fitness wise. You'll see two chubsters together or two cross-fit bodies together usually.
> 
> Can you address this somehow? Go to the gym together or get her interested in some dance aerobics or barre classes? Losing the weight, getting a nice body would help her mood and health tremendously I would think.


Years ago we were much closer in fitness. We shared a lot of active hobbies and exercised together. That changed abruptly when the kids came along. She says that that part of her life is over. I fully agree that if she was more active she'd feel better in many ways, but I can't do this for her. I've tried to encourage as much as possible (there's only so much "encouragement" a husband can offer).

There have been a few short periods where she's made some effort. Last year she wanted to get in better shape, so she signed us up for a 5k/15k--her the 5k, me the 15k. So I started training and she walked a few times and then her back started to hurt. So I ran the 15k by myself. I try to give her every opportunity. I told her I'd be happy to watch the kids any time she wants go to to the gym or go out and exercise, but she never takes advantage. She has been walking more often the last few months.

I make it a priority to exercise. I do this without taking time away from the family. I'll either do it early in the morning before they get up, at night after the kids are in bed, or over lunch time at work. I also ride my bike to work a couple times a week.

I've tried everything I can think of to get her more active but haven't had much success.


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## happy as a clam

Iver said:


> You'll see two *chubsters* together or two cross-fit bodies together usually.


THIS made me laugh! A moment of levity... :rofl:


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## speeedbump

LongWalk said:


> Your discussions about faith are absurd. Does she believe she is going to Heaven and you to Hell?
> 
> If so, why cling together here on earth when you will be separate for all eternity?


Basically, yes she does believe that. I think she's holding out some hope that I'll come around before it's too late.


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## LongWalk

Your wife is treating her marriage to you as an act of holy sacrifice. You should not enable this delusion. 

The reason to hang on is love for one another and your children. But truthfully many Christians divorce.

If intercourse is painful, you can still give each other orgasms, kiss and hug.


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## 4x4

Jellybeans said:


> Why get married at all if you're not gonna bone?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol: :iagree: :lol: :iagree: :lol: :iagree: :lol:


Winner winner chicken dinner!


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## 4x4

Sorry for your situation Speedbump. I can certainly empathize. I'm so glad I'm not fighting religious upbringing in my marriage. How are you supposed to fight her interpretation of the word of God?

You seem to already know what you need to do to battle for yourself, you just have to stand up and do it. Get your game plan for divorce going if you haven't. You can always NOT divorce if things work out. From what I read you have much more to worry about concerning potentially raising kids from a distance and how to remain the influence you'll want to be. I don't have kids so I can't help much there.


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## speeedbump

I've just been lurking for the last few months. Time for an update and maybe a few more questions. Thought about starting a new thread, but thought I'd just pick up here so the background is available.

The typical cycle has continued. Seemed to get a little better for a bit. Then she got sick and wasn't feeling well. I was optimistic at the beginning of the year because she said that she was going to try to initiate twice a week starting Jan. 1. You may not be surprised to find out that this resolve didn't even last one week.

In her defense, she got sick again and wasn't feeling well. Had a UTI and some other ailments so there was a stretch of about 6 weeks with no sex. In my defense, this is par for the course. There is always some sort of health issue going on that prevents her from being in the mood. Honestly it's easier to accept when there's a real health reason. It hurts less than the default status of "You just don't deserve it" due to me not being nice enough or feeling connected enough, etc...

Which brings me to my questions. Is it even worth it to try to have "the talk" again? I assume not, knowing how many times I've tried in the past and knowing how it always ends.

Assuming another talk is pointless, I guess the only thing left for me to do is either give a real, unambiguous ultimatum or just file.

I think an ultimatum would result in (on her part) short term rage, medium-term improvement, and long term reverting back to the status quo. And even if it does work, I don't relish the thought of her being more affectionate purely in reaction to a threat.

So that leaves the action that I've known was probably inevitable for the past five years or so that I've previously been unable to come to grips with. Divorce. Should I let her know it's coming and give her a chance to talk me out of it? Just file and give her the papers? 

To some of you this may seem abrupt and you might think I should give it another chance or maybe should try harder, but I have been lonely and dying inside from the constant rejection and belittling of my "needs" for over 18 years. I honestly feel like I have done everything I could and I just don't think I can live like this much longer.


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## 3Xnocharm

speeedbump said:


> I think an ultimatum would result in (on her part) short term rage, medium-term improvement, and long term reverting back to the status quo. And even if it does work, I don't relish the thought of her being more affectionate purely in reaction to a threat.


THIS is 100% truth! There is NOTHING you can do that is going to work, and you are finally realizing this. Harsh reality, but it is what it is. 



speeedbump said:


> So that leaves the action that I've known was probably inevitable for the past five years or so that I've previously been unable to come to grips with. Divorce. Should I let her know it's coming and give her a chance to talk me out of it? Just file and give her the papers?
> 
> To some of you this may seem abrupt and you might think I should give it another chance or maybe should try harder, but I have been lonely and dying inside from the constant rejection and belittling of my "needs" for over 18 years. I honestly feel like I have done everything I could and I just don't think I can live like this much longer.


You need to divorce. You have been too unhappy for way too long, time to stop beating this dead horse. Go find your happy.


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## LongWalk

Really. Tell your wife that you are sorry that you are not the man to make her happy. You failed not her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## speeedbump

LongWalk said:


> Tell your wife that you are sorry that you are not the man to make her happy. You failed not her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you suggesting this to let her down easy or are you suggesting that I have reason to be sorry and it is an actual failure on my part? Yes, there is some culpability in the religion department but I'm not the one who refuses to go to counselling or even read a book.


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## 4x4

Hey, the thread my sig was born! Thanks JB! 

Speedbump, I read through this quickly again and hopefully got the jest of it. It sounds like you're trying to push on a string and it won't work. You need to pull it. You can't make her do anything only try influence it by leading her in the direction you want to go. You can only change you. Also, if you have any heart to hearts with her, make sure you are acknowledging your half of the problem for being where you are today and she needs to own her half.

Back off the "need" for sex from her and focus on being the best you you can be. If you do discuss it in any way emphasize the need to be desired and how it makes you feel when you are not, not about sex. Do let her know she is attractive and desirable without pushing for sex. She tried to bargain you into being the spiritual leader for the promise of more sex. F that, never take a bargain for sex. Work on any other reasonable issues about you she may discussed with you, make sure you are carrying your weight in the marriage. Keep yourself in shape and and keep encouraging her to do so as well, without judgement of her when she doesn't. Once you are being the best you you can be, assess her reactions. If she isn't following, you'll be in a better place to move on if needed.

If you haven't been, make sure you are being the leader of the house and she can be the spiritual leader for the children and you'll support her any way you can even if you don't have the faith. I don't mean a tyrannical leader, but the one who makes the decisions when needed/asked at all times while respect for her desires, just don't be whishy washy with her or the children. Be firm, fair and consistent. She sounds like she wants/needs a strong leader.

There are probably some other threads here on handling religion and sex topic if needed.


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## Cynthia

If she doesn't change you are planning to divorce her, right?
She knows the deal. She is not going to say anything, because she doesn't want to rock the boat. If you give her yet another ultimatum, is is meaningless because she hasn't followed through on the ultimatum you already gave her. Be a man of integrity. Do what you said you were going to do. File for divorce.


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## Lostinthought61

Cynthia is absolutely correct, you drew the line in the sand and she crossed it by going back on her promise, and other line movement makes you now look weak and pathetic, you right now must define what kind of man she married....alpha or beta. You pick but if you pick the latter, then your never going to be allowed to ***** to her about sex because your threats are empty.


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## Wandering

Hi Speedbump,

I just wanted to chime in so you know you are not alone.
I too married after limited sexual exposure. 
In hind sight I should have seen he had almost no drive but I was religious so had nothing to really compare it to.

Anyways 15 years later and I have been considering divorce for the last 4. I simply have given up thinking my husband will change, and I have gotten sick of having to always be the one seeking intamcy sexual or otherwise.

Trust me even if they go along with it, not being really wanted still sucks.
My husband is as close to asexual as one can get he can be convinced but I'm attractive and fit and really want that connection where I don't have to convince my husband.

Anyways no point to all that except know there are others like you out there. I'm 38, and I talk to a lot of people in our age group with the same issue. I think when we all have had enough there will be a lot of us out there looking to start a new life with partners who want really close intimate relationships.

I set the deadline for 2.5 years, seems far but we are both good people and it seems fair to give him that last bit of time now he's taking it seriously, it's also time to hopefully let things happen naturally so neither of us are traumatized when it happens. Hopefully we will be ready.

I'm going to get that book you mentioned "to good to leave...." Sounds like exactly what I need to read.


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## LongWalk

speeedbump said:


> Are you suggesting this to let her down easy or are you suggesting that I have reason to be sorry and it is an actual failure on my part? Yes, there is some culpability in the religion department but I'm not the one who refuses to go to counselling or even read a book.


You need to move on. Although the failure is mainly hers, taking responsibility and ceasing to look to her for solutions is the best way to forgive yourself. You need to forgive yourself in order to stand up for yourself.

I am not a Christian and consider myself an atheist. Much of religion seems silly to me but there is a big difference between rejecting ridiculous ideas: immaculate conception, resurrection, etc and accepting the positive ideas in religion: forgiveness, ethics, spirituality.

If you file for divorce while standing up for yourself in a dignified way, your wife may discover her sexuality. She may bait and switch again, but as long as you set the ball in motion, you can take control away from her.

Ask yourself, does your wife want this control? Does she want to torture and emasculate you? Would she rather that you could stand up for yourself without being bitter or vengeful? I think it is possible but then again I don't know her.

Her track record is terrible. If you want to trudge this road for the rest of your life, it may happen.


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## SamuraiJack

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/10-signs-your-girlfriend-or-wife-is-an-emotional-bully/


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## jld

SamuraiJack said:


> https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/10-signs-your-girlfriend-or-wife-is-an-emotional-bully/


I think that site encourages a sense of victimhood in men.


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## naiveonedave

jld said:


> I think that site encourages a sense of victimhood in men.


no sex on the honeymoon=man is victim


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## imjustwatching

Stop being a doormat who have no clue what to do.You received some good advice here: 
-Tell her to visit a therapist together or you will consider a separation 
Or
-file for a divorce and find an actual normal woman


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## SamuraiJack

jld said:


> I think that site encourages a sense of victimhood in men.


That could very well be...but its a start.


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