# major marrige problem, desperate for help, please. long story



## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

1st post, been reading here for about 2 weeks now. Need help and advice

3 weeks ago I asked the wife if she loved me any more and she said 'no'. She actually said "I love u but Im not 'in love' with u", I took it as no love. After a few days of discussion she confessed more, no love at all, no feelings for me at all, no physical attraction for me any more, and doesnt care what I do, I can even go have sex with other women. 

I asked her the question because over the last few months she had seemed to become more and more unhappy, more distant, she stopped saying 'I love you' when she was either leaving the house or hanging up the phone with me, she wouldnt even hold my hand on the couch as we watched tv. Lots of signs I picked up way to late.

One sign that I hate myself for missing, was when we last spoke about a sex issue a few months ago, she said she felt like we were roommates and not a married couple, I blew her off and said she was crazy and that I loved her and to stop thinking that.

Now for some background. I am 41, shes 38, been together for 21 years, married for 16, 2 wonderful normal kids, 8 and 13 years old.

In the last 5 years, we haved moved to a new state, bought a bigger home, Ive had my share of job looses since moving here, fired 2 times, laid off 2 times, but Im back at a good job making good money and working long hours, so I feel all of this has added stress to our lives.

The kids have been active in activites, so the wife transports them around all week long and Saturday. Between our jobs and kids we have no time for our selves. no date nights ever, no overnights away from the home w/o the kids, ect, life has consumed us way to much. Add that into family obligations, traveling back to our old home state for parties and stuff like that and were over loaded in my book. Not sure if she agrees to that or not.

More background concerning our root problem. She has always pushed me away or rejected me, both in bed and out, sometime just coming up to her and offering a kiss seemed like I was bothering her. I told her about this for over 10 years now. I always got the same response, that she doesnt relieze she is doing it, but I have always felt it. In bed she is a bit prudish, I would like to do it in different postitions, with toys, in different rooms, in the back yard, in the pool, in the vehicles, all over, she always says no, so for the last 5 years or more Ive given up asking, and it just always happens in the bedroom, and usually only once a week, sometimes if were lucky 2 times. Ive also given up with just trying to touch or kiss her for no reason, I told her Ill give u what u seem to want, which is nothing, Ill stop bothering u.

I also stopped sleeping up against her in bed, again due to always being physically pushed away during the night. It was painfull to me, but I finally learned to just sleep on my side of the bed, usually leaning against a 2nd pillow. Once I started doing that, she complained about that too, that I liked a pillow more then I liked her. Again I told her I had enough of being pushed away, again she told me she didnt relieze she did that in her sleep.

Now it seems that after so many years of this, she felt I no longer loved her, and she says for the last year or more she has gradually stopped loving me. I didnt notice untill the last week or so, she no longer wears her wedding or engagement ring. She informed me she took them off in July, which is when she officially decided she no longer loved me. I hate myself for never noticing the rings were off. She still refuses to wear them. She says she has no connection with me.

I am very guilty of never telling her I loved her, I mean once in a while I would say it, but not at all like she said it to me in the past, I really regret not telling her every day. 

She also says we dont have fun and she is not happy. I say that is because we dont have time for anything fun and we have to start making time, maybe have the kids do less activites, maybe hire a landscapper to relieve some of our house work. Maybe she can stop being active in the scouts, anything to free up some time for us. 

She says that even the kids dont come out and say they love her and that she feels unloved and un-appreciated by all of us.

I spoke with the kids and told them to tell mom and myself and each other that they love them, that it is ok to share emotion and feelings. I was brought up in a home that never said it, so that is why Im that way, and wanted to teach the kids its ok to say it. Now for the last week or so, the kids say it openly, Im saying it, but the wife wont accept it from me, and even says it lost something from the kids once she found out I spoke with them. Ive noticed her being cold to the kids for the last month or 2 also. She is just generally unhappy. She says she doesnt feel this way at work, but I know she is even bored to death with her job and would like to be doing something different.

I wonder if she is having a midlife crises, but she says not, that she is only 38. 

she also told me in one discussion, that she knew we were heading down hill over 8 years ago when her mom passed away from cancer and I offered no emotional support. Her mom had the cancer for 8 years and was bed ridden the whole time, almost all the care fell on my wife and after 8 years of my wife spending weeknights and weekends away from me as newly-weds, I had enough and blew up one day and told her to go move in there. I was shocked too her she has held on to that for 8 years, and that she had almost left me at that time, but didnt because she had just become pregnant with our 2nd child. 

Now for the past 3 weeks, Ive cried, begged for forgiveness, thrown up several mornings because Im sick to my stomach and Im getting no where with here. Most of the crying and begging has stopped the 3rd week, she told me that was really getting on her nerves, but Im just so emotional about loosing her. Even with our problems, she has always been a great wife and mother. She does everything for the kids, cooks, cleans, runs most of the errands, pays the bills, laundry, ect ect. I have always tried to help with as much as I can and she knows athat, but the last 8 months or so, my job has kept me very busy, almost always working 10-12 hour days, so Im beat when I come home and dont do much except shower and eat and sit down. 

Ive been drowing myself the last 3 weeks with all sorts of relationship help from the internet and the library. Im reading and learing all sorts of things I should have learned long ago about keeping a relationship strong, or repairing a damaged one, but its all been 1 sided. She wont read the books I bring home, she wont find the time to read the web pages I forward her, she says Im pushing stuff on her. But I feel If I dont send her stuff, she isnt even looking for anything herself. Shes not attempting to help us out, and keeps telling me she's not sure if she wants to work it out. I cant understand why not, we have had many more good times then bad, she tends to look at it the other way around, she's only remembering the bad.

We dont argue or fight. We've always been a good team with the kids and house work and juggeling our stuff, but she just keep bringing up the negative.

To me our biggest problem over the years has alway been lack of sex, when we have it, its always good, just not always as exciting as I might like it. But Ive learned to live with that. She even asked me this morning if sex was always a problem for me, then why have I put up with it for so long, and I told her because I love her. 

In all my reading Ive learned how important communication is 1st, and sex is 2nd. I know now, that we have always had a communication problem. we always waited to talk about lack of sex once it was way to infrequntley, then it would happen a little more often for a while then die out again, always the same cycle. and in our talks, we always agree that both of us want it more, but neither wants to ask for the constant fear of rejection from the other. 

She also says that there is no more passion and love in the sex, its just sex, and Im affraid to admit that she is correct. I know Ive been cold to her with sex, but Ive been treated very coldly for soo long too.

So now Im dealing with a women that I love dearly, but doesnt love me, and isnt sure she wants to work this mess out.

I keep telling her it is fixable, with proper communication, better sex, and date nights we can have what we once had, she disagrees, and says its been to long with out all of it and she doesnt know if her feelings for me will ever return.

3 weeks of trying to show love and affection and Im feeling more rejected then ever. She says shes waiting for her feelings to change before she'll try 100%, I tell her she has to be trying 100% before feelings will change. as of now, she allows me to kiss and hug her, but I know she's not happy with it. She doesnt want to sit next to me on the couch or hold hands, I asked if I could come to bed and cuddle with her last night, she said I could come to bed, but no cuddleing. She said her back hurt last night, I offered to rub it she said no. I offered to use her masagger so I wouldnt be touching her, again- no. 

I pushed for a week before she finally called a therapist, every day she had an excuse why she wasnt able to call, when she finally did call, she didnt tell me. I asked her at 10pm and she said she called and didnt think to tell me. After a week of me asking she didnt think to tell me she finally did it. 

The only reason I was asking her to do it, was because she wants to go alone, not with me, so I left it for her to arrange.

Then once an appointment was arranged, it was for 2 weeks away which bothered me, it was too long. A few days later I found out the reason, she arranged it on her day off, she wasnt willing to miss a couple hours of work to seek help. 

I sent her 21 roses at work for our anniversary this past Wed, I got a text, ' thanks but not necesary', she has just been cold and mean the last 3 weeks. Ive never seen her this way, and Im starting to doupt that we can come out of all of this. 

We actually attempted sex a few days after this all came out, her idea, and it was such a mistake, she wouldnt even touch me, dont know why she even offered, I couldnt complete the act because of the pain and fear I was feeling. I told her no more sex unless she's actually willing do it with feeling, so Im not really sure if we will ever have sex again. 

Right now, she is spending the weekend away in a hotel with her sisters, they never see see each other so this was planed about a month ago. Im not sure what to expect when she returns. This past week, she went to a hotel for 2 nights to clear her head and came home on Wed being very cold and mean and distant. 

Is there any hope for us??? I love her dearly, she says she sees it now, but just doesnt love me back or know if she can. 

Sorry so long, but tried giving all the info I could, and after reading it all myself, it looks helpless to me, sorry to say. 

Biggest question, will her feelings change with out her 'wanting' it, or does she have to 1st 'want' it, then the feelings will follow after the actions start, like holding hands, kissing, spending time??


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl-

Hello and welcome 

Assuming your wife is not having an affair... (and she sounds too busy for that) - 

Your wife is running on empty. And although you were an idiot for not supporting her over her mother's cancer, it's all in the past. That may have been when some of the rot set in, but really, you should not blame yourself too much. She sounds like she is on the verge of a nervous breakdown. In fact I would say she has just started one.

However, you could handle her better. I have written an article which amounts to a check-list of things that can put a woman off sex. Have a look, and report back: Women who don't want sex


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## tryingtocope24 (Sep 27, 2009)

I am in a simular situation, I wouls suggest reading " how to survive your wifes midlife crisis" also she may be suffering for depression and if not treated will continue to get worse. It could be a chemical /hormonal imbalance also. Good luck trying to get them help because they will say there is nothing wrong with them.


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## johnluvssarah (Nov 14, 2009)

Sorry to hear that you are in this situation. I would have to agree with the first two responses in terms of the fact that your wife may be suffering from depression. My wife is a stay at home mom and for the first few years of her being at home with the kids she started feeling like that was all she was, a servant more or less to me and the kids. So I think that is a major issue to work out.
It also sounds like you have put your wife 2nd to everything else that has been going on in your life and that you may have taken her for granted which it sounds like you now realize. That is probably a huge reason that the sex has seemed more like just a chore from her end than something exciting and pleasurable. 
I don't think that you are completely lost, I mean she's still there. If you have a chance at fixing it though it's just going to take time. You can't fix countless years of actions with 3 weeks of words. It sounds like you're on the right track with sending her flowers and stuff but I would say step it up even more than that. Do you have any family or friends that you could leave the kids with for a few days? If there is anyway possible, get away just the two of you. If nothing more it will be a break from the constant running around. Best case scenario you will be able to SHOW her some things that that make her SEE that you love her. Continue with the little things, leave a note in her car that she will see saying something as simple as I'm thinking of you and I hope you have a great day. Send her occasional text out of the blue to let her know that you're thinking of her. Do stuff when she least expects it and when you are in the middle of other things so that she knows she's on your mind. And most of all, help her with her responsibilities. I know you said you work 10-12 hours a day and that when you get home you're beat but you need to find the energy to help her clean the house, cook dinner help the kids with homework, etc. I know how hard it is to do when you're tired but if you loose her you will be doing it everyday on your own without any help so just push through it.
In a nutshell I would just say treat her like you did when you first met her. Knock her off her feet with how far out of your way you go to help her out and make her feel like she's cared for. Make her realize she's not just a servant to you and the kids. 
Another thing you could do is just set up an appointment for a massage for her and then send her over to a spa so she can just be pampered. Let her do all of that alone so she can start to feel like she's not just a servant. 
Be persistent but not overwhelming, don't give up and just make sure she sees how much you care by your actions. You've already spent all this time with words, now it's time for actions. And give it time, it won't happen overnight. She's still there for some reason so I haven't lost hope for you yet. 
When you do talk to her about this again one thing you could tell her is that you screwed up in the past and you can't change that but you've learned from it and realize how close you are to losing her and that makes you absolutely sure that you won't make that mistake again. Tell her that if she is willing to give you a chance that you will completely start over and treat her the way she really deserves to be treated.

Peak in on our marriage at our blog


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks for the very much appreciated responses.

Trying to cope, I will check into that book, here online tonight, or tomorrow at the library. I have mentioned to her that there might be a gene thing wrong with her, since one of her sisters is constantly miserable and mad at the world, Im starting to see the same stuff from my wife, she didnt agree with that, saying that her sister has a medical condition/pain problem that makes her unhappy, and then she informed me that she (my wife) is not un- happy at work, only at home. I do know tho, that she is unhappy doing her present job, she's done the same type of job for well over 10 years now and is just bored to death with it, so how happy can she be at work. Even tho, she does sound more pleasent to me on the phone, when she calls me from work, but there are people around her, so she has to put up that front. 

Mark Twain, I read your web site, good info if I ever get to have sex again, thanks. 

The thing on your site that fits us is, resentment 3, lack of romance. Im very guilty. Im mad at the fact that it only happens once a week, always on sunday night. I work till 8:30 or 9pm most nights, change cloths at work, 1/2 trip home, shower, eat diner, then its usually 9:30 and she's ready for bed by 10 or 10:30 since she gets up at 5am for work, so 5 nights a week there just isnt time, by Friday we're worn out from a hectic week, Sat is usually a busy day if were even home sat night and not at someone else's house for something, it only leaves sunday which just always pisses me off. 

When we discuss sex, it seems we both want it, we're just on different pages of the same book.

She'll usually be the one to offer since Ive all but given up asking, we go to the bedroom after the kids are sleeping, after 9, I turn on the tv and lay there waiting for her to start servicing me, then after 10 or 20 minutes I go to work on her. Real romantic huh??? I know, Im guilty, she has complained about the tv before and I always blew it off as background noise so the kids wouldnt hear anything. Now I know from all the reading Ive done in the last few weeks that it is a huge turn off to women. Again, I wish I had listened to her. 
If sex is ever an option again, the tv will never be on. 

In the past 3 weeks, she has also said there is no passion and love in the bedroom, she is correct, its all about the act of each of us getting off and then going to sleep. Im guilty, I know, but believe me I have always loved her, her body,her looks, and having sex with her, even if it was always in the same room. 
I was always into things like taking pics or video, using toys, doing it outdoors, she was not, so in a way, Im always annoyed that it has gotten boring over the years.

She even mentioned to me recently, that maybe we just arent compatible sexualy, which is hard to swallow after being with her for 21 years. I always hopped she would hit her sexual peak and things would get better for us. 
From what I read, she should be at that peak now, and instead, sex may never happen again for us with each other.

Ive ruled out an affair, asked her point blank, and I believe her that its not happening, she swears that this is not about anyone else, just her happiness. She says she doesnt care if she ever has another guy in her life again, she just wants to be happy in every day life. 

I was wrong about her mothers cancer, I know that, but in my defense, not that it makes it any better, this went on for 8 years, her dad did nothing for her Mom, just relied on my wife for constant care. 2 sisters were out of state and only came down once a month or so, and the other local one put her family first, so my wife played the key care giver. Being a newly-wed and losing your wife for the 1st 8 years really sucked for me. But she doesnt see that, she just put mom 1st, I was on the back burner. My feelings didnt matter. 

Johnsluvssarha, depression may be an issue here. I'll fly it by her and see if she doent kill me for mentioning it. 

My wife is a working mom, and of course doesnt stop working when she gets home, always on the go. I have taken her for granted for too long, again Im guilty. I always thanks her for dinner, and thank her for packing my lunch and doing laundry, but just saying thanks only goes so far. I needed to really show that I appreciated what she did and I failed to do that. Ive tried making up for that in the last 3 weeks, even getting home and helping fold the last of the laundry and clean up diner dishes, but maybe its too little too late. I dont know, its only been like the last 8 months or so that I stopped helping. Back in the past when I worked a normal 8-5 job I helped with just about everything except cooking diner, maybe she just got to used to the help, then when it stopped and the kids joined extra activities, it was just too much too handle, I dont know. 

As far as treating her as when we 1st met, Ive been trying. Brought home flowers 2 times already,in the last 3 weeks, both times went over OK, no big deal, I wrote a long heartfelt card, and left it in her car to find in the am, she actually called me and said it was nice. I wrote her my christmas list, 25 things that I wanted, all things like, my wifes love, my wife meaningfull kisses, hugs, passionate love making sessions, date nights, days out w/o the kids, weekends away just the 2 of us, ect, ect. I thought it up on my own and spent all day adding to it, so excited about giving it to her, she flew thru it and never commented at all. Ive asked her several times since then to keep reading it, cause I expect all all of the things for christmas, but she is just always cold about responding to me with it.

Then came the 21 roses delivered at work on our 21st anniversary this past week, I got the very cold text, 'thanks but not necesary', took all the wind out of my sail. I had gone into work at 5am that day, so I got home at 5pm, 5 min after her. She was reading the anniversary card that I had written and left at home for her. Not a word was said to me after putting the card down, not thanks, not hello, nothing. she has only gotten colder in the past 3 weeks. 

Last week I was near her job during the day, left a sheet of paper on her windshield, ----- loves-----, at least I got a call saying she got it but that was it. I told her I was tempted to stop in and say hello but wasnt sure if I was wanted and she said something to the effect that it ok that I didnt stop in. Then when I got home I looked in her car and the note was gone, thrown away, she's cold and heartless. 

Ive sent texts, I dont normally text, but I started in the last few weeks, 95% go ignored, she hardly ever responds at all. I can send 10 a day and get nothing back at all. I finally asked if Im bothering her and she said yes, so I stopped sending them. 

Setting up a massage wont work, she's not that type, its a waist of money. Years ago I bought her gift certificates for massages and tanning for birthdays, she never used them. So I know for a fact she wouldnt use them now, I might as well throw the money in the wood stove. 

Ive mentioned for the last 3 weekends, going to dinner, going out for drinks, going to a hotel for the night, she is against it all, she says she doenst see it helping at this point. 

All I keep reading is that we need together time, her idea was to spend 2 nights away from me in a hotel, then she came home more distant then ever. I think it backfired. This weekend she is away with her sisters, I already told her Im affraid of what she will come home like on Sunday, the distance apart isnt what we need, we need together time, but she is not interested in hearing it.

I wonder if she had a place to go with the kids, if she would have already walked out, Im not really sure. 

Actions, its funny u mentioned them I keep trying actions, but its not easy, she'll hardly let me kiss her, I can get a hug in, no back rubs, no cuddeling, its going to be a rough road. But Im not ready to bail yet.

I asked her this morning, ' If I didnt love u, would I have but up with all this pain and suffering the last 3 weeks?' Im ashamed to admit how many days in a row I cried myself to sleep or cried to her or cried while at work(alone). I feel like a frekin wimp, Im not normally like this. 

Ive told her I screwed up, and this was a wake up call to me. She has already doupted that I truly love her and if will change my ways. I told her its a 2 way street, we both need to change to fix this, she has to stop re-jecting me and I will flood her with more love and affection then she can handle. 

Ive told her I cant change the past, but she is holding on to all of the negative, no positive in her eyes. I mentioned our trip to disney a few years ago and how great it was and that I was hoping to go back as a family again and not as a single parent. The next day she tells me it wasnt a perfect trip, we got into 2 arguments and she wouldnt go back because of that. I couldnt believe that, after she reminded me, I was like, yeah I remember having an argument, but have no idea over what, it was no big deal, we were stressed, trying to sqeeze too much into too few days, she always comes up with the negative, I seem to remember the positive, its amazing. 

Im still shocked she held onto that thing with her mom for over 8 years now, she has always thrown old **** in my face, I think its a women thing.

She wont forgive or forget. I told her the other day I feel like she truly hates me, after being with her for 21 years, its like what did I do all of a sudden to deserve this treatment.

As of now, when she gets home tomorrow, the 4 of us are going to a park to play lazer tag, I told her, at least she wont have to suffer with just me alone, and she agreed too it. Ill let u know if she changes her mind and breaks my heart again. I wont be surprised if she forgets all about it and shows up reallt late or not at all.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

She got home today and basically told me she's done trying, and that nothing will change. She has no feelings for me and its been to long w/o them that they wont come back now. She wont wear or rings, or try any actions. 

I got until after the holidays then I guess we start the separation or divorce.

I say its still no where near enough time to try to work this out but she seems pretty much set. 

I asked her, if she had a place to go live now with the kids, would she have already left, she said yes, and that the only reason she's here is she needs to have stuff from the house. 

21 years down the tube.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Sometimes you just have to listen to what someone is saying to you and not put on the "I'll fix that" hat at all.

You wife does not love you and has not for a long time.

If I were you, I'd take her at her word and prepare yourself emotionally and financially for what is about to transpire.

I'd suggest consulting an attorney (and not tell her about it) to find out your options. stay or go, you are about to find a side of your wife you think not possible.

Get ready.


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## noideato20 (Oct 27, 2009)

danl Ive been reading your posts here and I cant even tell you how bad I feel for you. My story sounds about the same married seventeen years on and on oct 15th was told He didnt love me and didnt want to be married. Several other complications have surfaced since then but basically he doesnt want couseling or anything just want to wait till after holidays and then move. I have spent the last three weeks doing the same as you reading, crying, begging and all that until finally I cant do it anymore I will not put myself out there again. My self esteem is nil. I know its awful but maybe tomm just get up and do your shower thing and put on your cologone and start seeing that you are not all she is saying you are. You obviously are a romantic with the flowers and you have apologized profusely and shes not forgiving. Dont let her tear you down any more. They just seem to not even care what its doing to you emotionally or physically. It feels almost like they are doing on purpose. Dont let her do it anymore at least for a couple of days for your sanity do something you want and something need. Go buy yourself something. Your exhausted. You need and deserve a rest from all this turmoil.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## preso (May 1, 2009)

danl said:


> 1st post, been reading here for about 2 weeks now. Need help and advice
> 
> 3 weeks ago I asked the wife if she loved me any more and she said 'no'. She actually said "I love u but Im not 'in love' with u", I took it as no love. After a few days of discussion she confessed more, no love at all, no feelings for me at all, no physical attraction for me any more, and doesnt care what I do, I can even go have sex with other women.
> 
> ...



You sound upset and its understandable. 
Long story short, if she doesn't love you and want to be married and your wife, you have no option but to let go and work on yourself to let go if need be.
You will be making a BIG MISTAKE to work on the marriage in hopes her "feeelings" will change. Love is about far more than feelings, and so is marriage... ( actions, commitment)
so........... do yourself a BIG FAVOR and learn to let go. 
Accept things as they are and not how you hope them to be.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

I was hoping for more positive responses, like theres still hope ect, but I guess all my hope is out the window. 

Ive been able to hold back the tears for the last week, even yesterday when she said she was done I held back, but my heart is still bleeding so badly. I cant believe I got so little time left with her under the same roof, then it all comes to an end.

How will I be able to keep a smile on at the holidays knowing that life as I know it will all be over in a very short time.

I cant bear to even think about not seeing my kids daily, kissing them good night, seeing them out the door in the morning for school. Sometimes just looking at them makes me tear up and I have to leave the room. They still dont know anything is going on. 

She keeps saying she doesnt want me to hurt, some of the things she has said to me lately are just un-real. Yesterday she said she doent want me to love her anymore. 

I dont even think the therapist will help on Friday, cause she is going to walk in with that negative 'I dont want it fixed' attitude.

I asked her yesterday knowing that it was wrong, if she would give me one last shot at making love to her, she said probably not. 

Dont know how Im going to make it. I told her I dont know how we can even manage financially to be in 2 separate apartments with double utilities and that getting rid of all or stuff and devideing up the rest is going to be a long painful process that Im not ready to deal with. 

Thanks for listening to me, its needed and appreciated.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

another thing I forgot to mention, I keep telling her about the success stories Ive read about, how people hit rock bottom just to come out of it stonger. Yesterday she says we are 'below rock bottom'.

Ill never understand how it got so so bad for her.


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## tryingtocope24 (Sep 27, 2009)

Danl I know how you feel I have been there. When you back off and give her space does it make any differance? In my situation it does sometimes. I have been told three times she is leaving but it changes a little every time. Has she has a thyroid test done in the resent past. I know it would not be a quick fix but there is a chance there maybe a problem. I don't know how you could get her to go but if she has some symptoms of hypothyroid it may give you a clue on the changes. look it up at womentowomen.com. I know when you are where you are at you are looking at anything for help like me. Everyone tells you that you need to take one day at a time and take care of you, they are right but it is real hard, the hardest thing i have ever done. I do a lot with the kids now, i do a lot outside around the house anything to fill time and do something that when you are done you can look at it and say that looks better even if you are not. I have not seen or heard from my wife in 12 days and it is killing me but i told her i would give her space and i am.
I asked the same question about two months ago about the one last chance to make love and she said no. Then after a blow up we had a long talk and asked each other how do we live in the same house and remain civil. I said we talk our relationship back a couple months where we kissed and huged when we left each day and when we went to bed ( seperate rooms). She said she missed that and a few days later the sex followed a couple times then i got upset because of her not being honest and I left the house for a few days. Then she left to visit her mom for the month and thats where we are. So give her some space and see where it takes you. 
Good Luck we both need it.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Ive been backing off and giving more space, I stopped calling her at work, maybe 1 text a day, which she ignores. Tonight I didnt even try to hold her hand on the couch, nothing seems to work tho.

When I kissed her good night, quick peck on the lips, a long hug, then I kissed her neck and she pushed me away, I asked why she was pushing and she said she 'doesnt want me to kiss her any more'. I said 'no more kiss's at all', she said a quick goodnight or goodbye kiss was alright, but feels I shouldnt do any more then that. 

I cant believe what this has turned in in the last 3 weeks, after being with her for 21 years, very very sad. 

She turned into a mean cold women, dont even know why Im trying, she's not the same girl Ive lived with for so long.

Tonight I asked again about going away over night, she said it wont help. I asked again about her rings, again she said it wont help, I told her it sure cant hurt.

I got home at 7:30 tonight, showered and ate alone in the kitchen, then came down to the living room and watched tv with her and only made small talk all night until she said she was ready for bed at 10, then asked to talk and thats when all this was done. Its not like I came home and hounded her right away about the rings or going away. Im trying to give her space, she just doent make it easy, she gets angry very quick, again, not the same women Ive been with for 21 years. 

I also mentioned the thyroid and she laughed it off at 1st saying there was nothing wrong with her, and of course when I persued it more she got angry.

I think I will be giving up soon, its a one-way dead end road Im traveling.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> I think I will be giving up soon, its a one-way dead end road Im traveling.


That attitude is probably your best attitude for both yourself and any possibility of fixing the marriage. Let her feel the cold wind of your gradual withdrawal. If it can't be fixed, then at least you will be in the right frame of mind.

In the meantime, if you bear in mind that check-list I gave you, it might put you on a better footing, either with her, or Mrs Next.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks Mark, what check list did u give me tho?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> Thanks Mark, what check list did u give me tho?


Sexless Marriage?


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

danl,

I really related with everything you wrote about your wife, it reminded me of how I felt during my first marriage of 12 years (together 20 years total)...Unloved, unappreciated....just plain tired and wanted to be happy. And yes, I also had a few key moments from the past (my mother's death being one of them) where I felt my (now ex) husband was not there for me.

I was also accused of being 'cold' once I told him I had enough. Part of it was being annoyed that he seemed to be scrambling to make me happy....but it didn't feel like it was because he loved me, appreciated me...it really seemed like he was afraid of his life changing....me not being there to do everything was scary for him....so it felt like he was doing this for him, fear of change, not out of love for me.

Trying to say it is depression, her thyroid, mid-life crisis or whatever would make me roll my eyes and laugh...resentment builds over time, likely many years so it may seen like a sudden change to you but for her it's likely been building for years.

Sometimes it's too little, too late....but probably the most effective strategy for you will to be to step back...don't push sex or intimacy with her....don't pressure her to talk about the marriage, etc. Just start doing things on your own...be very upbeat and happy around her...do things with your kids....take charge at home with cleaning, yardwork, etc....just get things done...don't put pressure on your wife to do things that she's been feeling overwhelmed with. 

It will give her a chance to sit back and look at what you are doing and hopefully question whether ending the marriage is really the only way she can be happy...actions speak louder than words....putting in your own demands right now for sex, date nights, even your christmas list will probably have the oppostie effect...leave her feeling you are only looking out for you and not really hearing her, not really caring that she is saying she feels UNLOVED & UNAPPRECIATED...


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## dawnie (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm a first time poster, but I'm a woman who is in the same sort of situation as you and your wife are. Meaning, I feel like your wife, and my husband is like you. I resent him a lot - because he will not defend me in front of his family, he will not help around the house unless he's told what to do and even then he doesn't really do a great job at it, and he doesn't even take care of basic maintenance for the house or vehicles. Everything falls to me to remember to do. Well, that doesn't cut it. 

In all of your posts, you not once mentioned that you help out with the kids by running them around to their activities, or helping them with their homework, or that you help out around the house by taking on some of the chores and daily boring tasks that are required to keep a house running. A woman could CARE LESS about roses and flowers if there is no help in general life and living. Really, the roses are a nice gesture, as are the notes and things and, believe me, she is noting them, but it falls flat when what she really wants and what she is getting are two different things. She wants a partner who takes on all the chores in life. 50/50. 

If she feels like she has to make a list in order to get things done around the house, then how are you any different than just another kid who needs to be taken care of? Kids need a To Do List. Adult men should not need a list. They should see when things need fixing, when something needs to be picked up (as opposed to walking right by it), tidy something when it needs tidying, discipline the kids when they need disciplining. 

Do you defend her when someone makes a comment about her? Do you stand up and take her side when someone in your family comments about her, do you set that person straight? Do you tell her she is a wonderful mother to your kids? 

Do you take the kids off her hands? 

Do you make a point of telling her, it's time to leave all the chores undone and let's just get out for a walk together? 

Do you clean up the bathroom once in a while? 

Do you get after the kids to clean up their room or do you leave that to her? 

Do you tell her that she's beautiful to you? And not because you're hoping it will get you some sex out of it. Just are you telling her she's lovely just because she actually is lovely? As a woman is lovely? Believe you me, it will take considerable time of you telling her these things before she will believe you that you're telling her this just to tell her it is so. She's going to believe for a long, long time you're telling her this with ulterior motives. 

Your wife is burnt out. Completely and utterly. Someone said, running on empty... not even close. Well below empty. You've said so yourself - you do nothing but work, come home expecting dinner, some time with the TV and then bed. Whoopie. She is deeply angry, deeply resentful, and deeply, deeply longing to just walk out. In fact, I believe you said she has walked out - for 2 days. You're lucky she came back. But you need to ask yourself... did she come back because of the kids? Or did she come back because she would try just a little bit more in this life she's been living for 21 years... a life, she obviously has disliked for 21 years. I'm thinking it is entirely possible she only came because of the kids and the kids only. Because she felt it was better for the kids to have a 2-parent household. 

Well, how about you cook together in the kitchen, including the clean up afterwards, or at least you tell the kids to clean up the kitchen after dinner instead of making her the "bad guy" by telling the kids to help out around the house? If you don't know how to cook, LEARN. My husband recently learned how to bake cinnamon buns. This impressed me. 

When was the last time you rubbed her shoulders, simply to help her tired sore muscles relax (and not hoping to get sex out of the deal)? 

Money is not the be all to end all. If your job never allows you the time or energy for your family, house, and home, then whoopie. Perhaps sit down with your burnt out, extremely unhappy wife and mention to her that it's time the job stopped getting in the way of house and home and that you'd like to look for a job that works you less hours. Less hours means less money and a tighter budget, so she needs to be on board with this. Seriously. And it might mean downgrading to a smaller more affordable home, but the added home-family time and husband-wife dating time might build a warmer home. 

Some of you men expect to be catered to your every need but think nothing about perhaps catering to your wife once in a while. She's working two full-time jobs - a paying job and the full time job it takes running a house (keeping it clean and orderly) with 2 busy kids and all of their activity. 

When was the last time you threw a load of whites in the washing machine, and folded the clothes coming out of the drier? 

Much more EFFORT is required into the daily running of the household before she will begin to feel like she's not being taken for granted. Her life, as she sees it, is a dismal daily chore of endless laundry, a job that is mind-numbingly boring (as I understood it from your original post), cleaning up after the kids, cooking, doing dishes, paying the bills, chore after chore after chore after chore. When she finally gets to bed, she's exhausted, mentally worn out, and so why in the world should she attend to YOUR needs (Sex) when nobody has even so much as thought to attend to her needs? 

She needs a holiday. No kids. No job. No chores. Take her away for a holiday, just the two of you. And then when you get home, make sure she has a day off every week herself, and the two of you have an evening off together (where you don't expect sex to happen at the end of it). Eventually, when her spirit and soul and mind and body have become sufficiently rested, all things will align and perhaps there will be some desire building for sex because she'll finally have the energy for it. In the meantime, quit harping on it and get going on the real life stuff that means oh so very much to an underappreciated, overworked woman. I hope you're not too late. She's been on this lonely road a very, very long time and you will have to work unbelievably hard to save this marriage. 

There's a saying that marriage is 50/50. Not true. At some point in time, it becomes a heavier burden for one partner. It's time you took on the heavier burden for a while. 

Have you forgotten, she is a woman first?

Have you forgotten she is a woman who deserves considerable respect and admiration for everything she does to make your life more comfortable? 

She's not just your wife and lover. She is also supposed to be your friend. Are you a friend to her too? Do you even know how to be a friend to a woman (and not just a lover)? Women friends talk about everything together. They just talk and talk and talk. They listen to each other's vents and accept each other's friendship. They trust each other. Can you be her friend? A respectful, trusting, friend? Perhaps try some of these things and see if it helps. Perhaps sit down and talk to her and ask her if some of these things I've mentioned above are what is weighing on her. If she thinks she can really trust you, you might get an earful. Are you prepared to listen? I mean, really, really LISTEN. Without getting defensive or making excuses? I mean just listening to her and really thinking about what she says? And then, are you prepared to take action, whatever it may be? Because if she tells you what she's feeling and wanting and then you do nothing, you'll lose her forever. You're at that point right now.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Mark, yes, I read that the other day, we fall under resentment 3, lack of romance. Dont think Im in any position to fix that just yet.

Swedish, thanks, Im trying my hardest to step back and give her space. Staying upbeat and happy is hard, but I will try my best, thanks.

Dawnie, where the hell are u, I need to give u a hug and a kiss. U came off as a hard ass, but that is exactly what I need right now, thank you.

I do all need maintenance on the house and cars, but it all gets done on weekends. I do work an odd work schedule, Im on call and go in anywhere from 5-10 am and usually work 10-12 hours, so it is hard to help out too much on weekdays. I do nothing lately with the kids as far as home work and running them to activities except maybe a Saturday soccer game. Its just impossible for me. Once in a while Im home in time for the 7pm Boy scout meeting but thats about it during the week.

Believe me, before I changed careers 2 years ago, I worked 8-5 or 6 and helped out a lot. That was one of my strong points. I use to love hearing her tell her sisters or friends what a great help I was. But with this new job, and with how busy we are, its just tough right now. 

I even went to my supervisor 2 weeks ago and asked if I could be let go earlier then normal, I gave a quick explaination of my problem at home and that I needed to be home a little earlier and he has let me go, but its only like an hour or 2 earlier, so Im still not home in time to do home work or run them around. 

In fact when I mentioned to the wife that I was gonna talk to my boss, she said not to, that we needed the money, I told her I need 'her' more then the money and went a head and asked anyway. I dont even think she noticed that Im working a little less, and Im not sure its helping, because as soon as I get home, she seems angry at me anyway.

I have been on both kids lately to do more, especially the older one, with the explaination that mom works really hard and needs a little help, she seems to be doing it w/o an argument. Emptying the dishwasher, vacumning, folding her own laundry ect. The younger one is still a bit useless at chores other the feeding the dog and maybe straightening up his own room a little bit.

It was agreed upon that she went to a motel for two days to clear her head, which in my opionon, didnt work. She came back colder then usual. She is here basically for the kids, and the fact she's got no where else to go.

I am not at all the type that needs catering to, that is not me at all. I do laundry cut grass, pick up leaves, clean the house, but only on the weekends, or on the rare occassion if my schedule allows. 

I do releize I have not shown appreciation, and have tried a lot in the past 3 weeks, but she keeps closing me out. I barley hear a 'thanks' from her when I say something. I have always been the type to tell her she is beautiful, pretty, sexy and that is because she truley is. But just the other night she snapped at me when I said that she was beautiful , and when I asked why she said it was because I never say that to her. Man was she wrong, I got pissed. I told her Im guilty of not saying 'I love you' 'but I have always told u, u were beautiful' so Im not sure where that came from unless she has always blocked me out.

Im probably guilty of not knowing how to be a freind to a women, and I do want to be her best friend. I sent her an email the other day (which went ignored) saying I want to be her friend, her email buddy, her text buddy, her phone buddy. And I really meant it.

Thank you for your help, I think I will show her your entire response, its a real eye opener. Thank you for your time. I owe u a hug and kiss.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Dawnie, good morning, I showed her your post this morning, she said I do what I can around the house and with the kids, and that the main problem is the lack of love and affection she felt from me, and now the no love and feelings she has for me. She said she doesnt expect it to change its been too long (like 1 year) and even said to me the other day, she doesnt want me to love her.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> Mark, yes, I read that the other day, we fall under resentment 3, lack of romance.


Please go into extreme detail.



> Dont think Im in any position to fix that just yet.


How dare you be so defeatist! Keep writing, it will all become clear.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Mark, basically, romance has died. We were only having sex once a week, always on sunday night and only by her offering. I was always angry about the fact that it was only once a week. Some sunday nights when she would ask I was an ass and would say something like 'Oh yeah I'll join ya its that time of the week again' or ' sure if I want sex tonights the night or I have to wait until next sunday' . Im surprised she was still willing after getting a response like that from me.

Then we would go to the bedroom, I would turn on the tv, my excuse was that it was background noise so the kids wouldnt hear us. I know the tv bothered her, dont know why I always did it anyway. The clock radio would have been more romantic.

Then I would usually lay there while she started to service me, then I would service her, then the actual act. It always lasted 1/2 to 3/4 hour, we both got off, but both the passion and love was just less and less each time. 

There wasnt any other romance around the house either, she pushed my advances away for years so I finally stopped. She just recently admitted to me that my type of affection shown during the day seemed loveless and more like grooping then actually showing real love. 

We never do a date night or even a romantic diner at home, with 2 kids and all other responsibilities we never had time or money. 

I know I sound like a real ass here, never showed love or affection, but something trained me to be that way. Always being pushed away, always being told 'not tonight' or better yet, not even answering me when I asked for sex. 

Believe me, it hurt the last few years, walking by her and not touching her or kissing for no reason, but I was trained to think thats what she wanted, and now I learn differently. When its to late to fix it and re-do it the right way.

I have always told her she was beautiful and sexy, and just the other night she accused me of never saying that, I was pissed, Im guilty of not saying 'I love you' but not for saying she was beautiful. I think she just blocked it out.

I do love her soo much and am starting to think there is no repair here. She has already told me she doesnt want to work it out and she doesnt want me to love her. 2 nights ago she pushed me away when I tried to kiss her neck, she said I make her feel uncomfortable and smothered.


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## Bigsigh (Oct 26, 2009)

Your wife's behaviors sounds exactly like my husbands. We had 2 issues. One was his daughter came to live with us when she was 15 and it was tough to say the least, we made it through last year. The next one was a "friend" of mine gave him a piece of her mind when they were both drinking and then took off. I removed her from our life, but the fact that i didnt chase her down (she was long gone) and stand up for him that night was a deal-breaker. He left 7 months ago and said he is just too unhappy and cant get over the past. There is nothing more I can do.

Does your wife read at all?? I found The Power of Now is a great book to deal with internal happiness. One has to deal with what's going on inside of themselves before they can be happy with someone else in a relationship.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

If I recomend the book to her, will it work for me or against me?
She reads novels, its been tuff to get her to read much of the 'save the relationship' stuff Ive found so far. She tells me Im forcing stuff on her.

Tonight was a good night. I totally left her alone with our problem. I told her about my exciting work day, sat near her on the couch, not right next, never attempted to hold her hand or mention our issue at all. Just a quick hello kiss when I got home and the same for a goodnight kiss. No hug, tried to give space.

Good night for me, but I still sensed her anger, but not as bad as other nights. So maybe I'll stick with this path for a while.


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## Bigsigh (Oct 26, 2009)

I think the book would be great for the BOTH of you. I read it and although he is gone, his daughter (who still lives with me) read it and asked him to read it. She went to visit him last weekend and said it is on his nightstand, with a bookmarker in it. I'm not holding any hope on it though. It talks about where the unhappiness comes from inside of us all and how for the most part we create it ourselves and then blame someone else for how we feel.


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## Bigsigh (Oct 26, 2009)

Also, there is only one chapter on relationships in it. The rest is about yourself and understanding your pain and the role of an ego. It's a fantastic book. I would read it yourself first and if you see/hear things she's been saying then ask her to read it.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl-

Is it possible she is having an affair right now?


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## thrckb (Oct 4, 2009)

All is not lost. Have your ever heard of Fire Proof 'the movie' and the book that goes with it. It also a marriage program that give you specific things TO DO that could return, restore and rekinda the love. 
Check it out.


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## dawnie (Nov 17, 2009)

danl said:


> Dawnie, good morning, I showed her your post this morning, she said I do what I can around the house and with the kids, and that the main problem is the lack of love and affection she felt from me, and now the no love and feelings she has for me. She said she doesnt expect it to change its been too long (like 1 year) and even said to me the other day, she doesnt want me to love her.


Is she being really straight-up with you? Is that really what it all boils down to? A lack of affection and love from you? Or is the main problem really the lack of love and affection she feels FOR you. She's rather withdrawn. 

I glean resentment here. And an accounting of score keeping. Your "bank account" as-it-were is significantly overdrawn. I hear a significant lack of communication between the two of you. And I don't hear a lot of fight - an argument at least means enough caring to figure out what's going on. The other kind of fight I'm not hearing about is the "fight to make it work". 

From your point of view, all you can do is what you know what to do, right? So, analyse yourself here... Are you really being as affectionate with her as you think you are, as often as you think you are? We can't answer that, only you can. (I'm not accusing anything here either!) Another question to ask are what actions constitute affection? Everyone has a different opinion of what they feel is affection - I have a friend who feels she is loved because the husband is a hard worker. Another one likes almost constant touching. Me, I like a powerful enveloping bear hug now and again. So, for her, is affection frequent hugs? What kind of hug - a bear hug, or a smooshy hug? Is it a snuggle up from behind and kiss on the neck? Is it saying "I love you" morning, noon, and night? Is it candles and moonlit walking? IUs it date night? If you are doing what you think is affection but she is pushing you away when you do it - - that leaves confusion in the wake. :scratchhead: I'm confused here, so no wonder you are.

It's not fair to use a lack of communication as a weapon one against the other. 

Ask her to define to you exactly what she means by affection. And upon defining it, she also needs to be fair that when you do try to reach out for a hug, kiss, or whatever, and acknowledge that you are trying. 

This is going out on a limb here, but might you be willing to take a bit of a risk? Every day when you come home from work, wrap her in a tight bear hug. She'll push against you, but hug her anyway. Every morning, another bear hug. It wouldn't surprise me if by day two she's gets a bit aggressive in pushing you off... hey at least that's some emotion! It's touching a nerve and it's a good time to find out WHY that's hitting a nerve. You know her best, but I might be inclined to continue the hugs every day even after that. I don't know too many women who, deep down, really and truly hate being hugged. If a woman doesn't like hugs, then she's either autistic, or she has a very serious problem with human contact and that can only be resolved with help from a psychologist. 

All you can do is keep trying, keep working, even when she pushes you away. But, as I said, I think you're in for a long and difficult road ahead of you. 

She listed "affection" as the problem, so keep trying to put more and more effort into the little things that constitute affection, but the first step would be to discover just exactly what constitutes affection in her eyes/mind. 

Additionally, you need a professional counselor. Start going alone if need be, but go nonetheless. Be dirt-honest with your counselor at all times. Get some ideas from your counselor and start to implement them. 

That's all I can think of. Maybe someone else on here has some ideas. But as I'm understanding it, "affection" isn't the only problem here. "Communication" is way up there too.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Mark, I dont think so, Im 98% sure of that. There are signs, loosing weight, which she has been trying to do for years and it finally all came off in the last 3 months. She claims the stress of the relationship and finally getting on the exercise bike did it, I tend to believe that.
Lots of new cloths, but she did loose 20-25 lbs, so nothing fit her any more. other signs like shaving legs every day, buying make up and hair and nail stuff, teeth whittening, but she claims shes doing it all for herself to try to feel better about herself. I dont know, I would like to believe it all.
She was texting this guy from back in our home state that we saw a few times over the summer, but that has died down to almost zero. it went on heavy during the summer, lots behind my back, but then died down in sept, oct and nov. I asked her right out if anything was going on, if there were feelings for him or attraction, and she says no. She even went as far as to call him and tell him no more texting or calling since it bothered me. That actually made me feel like she respected me, and when I said that to her she said she did. 
She went out with 'people' from work twice recently which is not like her, but both times she claims it was for going away type things, I will see how many more people leave in the next few months.
Over all, I tend to think nothing is going on, she's home to much. 
I dont like that the cell phone is off all the time now when Im home, when it used to be on all the time, and its never out in plain sight like before, but Im told Im crazy for thinking anything, that its always in her pocket book like its always been, not. 
She does swear nothing is going on with anybody, anywhere and there wont be any relationship with anybody else until were divorced, and even if we do get divorced its not necesary that she needs to be with any one, she just wants happiness. 

Dawnie, I will get back to u later.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Dawnie, my lack of love and affection towards her, has cause her lack of love and feelings for me. I think she has been very open, dont think she has held anything back, she really let me have it all. 

Communication has been lacking, we both always let a problem become too big before we talk about it, and I guess with being a guy, I never fully listened to her 100%. A few months ago, we spoke about lack of sex, she actually said to me then that we seemed more like roommates the husband and wife, I blew her off, said she was crazy and that I loved her. If I had really listed then, I would have gotten the 1st clue that there was a major problem here. No we dont fight or argue, at least not as far as Im concerned, she thinks differently. In my opinion, we get along great and discuss things. very rarely do things get heated. I do agree about the bank account, Im over-drawn, I've read about that. 

The affection I used to show, I recently learned was wrong, I loved her rear end, I always walked up and gave a nice rub or squeeze, then normally followed by a kiss on the neck or cheek, but she recently told me she was always being grooped, and it didnt seem like love or affection. So I guess I still need to find out the affection she wants to receive. As of now, almost all affection is gone. When this all hit the fan 4 weeks ago, I was offering lots of kiss's, hugs, hand holding, but little by little, she has stopped it all. Pulling away, pushing away, she told me she feels uncomfortable and like I was smoothering her, with out the love feelings for me she doesnt want any love back from me. 
She knew I was trying, she said she saw it all, just didnt like it now, I guess too little too late. 

I dont think the bear hug thing will work right now, she made it clear I was already smoothering her. Maybe I can ask her about it 1st, what do u think about asking her before doing it, I cant afford to to piss her off any more.

Ill finish responding later. Thanks


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

I asked her tonight if we can have a good fight to get emotions out there, she said there is nothing to fight about. The forced hugging wont go over well either, it will piss her off like the other night.

As far as affection, she said anything with real feeling and emotion is good, even grabing her ass as long as I would have followed it up with a meaningful kiss.

She is seeing a counselor tommorrow for the 1st time. But from what I read, its not a good idea for the leaving spouse to be the one going alone, it will be all negative, no positive talk at all, and I may never get a chance to be called in. Well see what happens.

I did pick up the book, the power of now, she started it but said its not easy reading. The librarian also recommended the 'stillness speaks' by the same author, it came out 1st, so hopefully she looks at both. 

Wish us luck, say a pray, anything, I dont want to loose my wife but she doesnt want to stay.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

She tells me tonight, that she see's me trying to show the love now, but she is just not 'feeling it' or as I keep saying, she's just not opening up to accept it. She keeps saying she's too far gone from the connection or relationship. 

I felt anger from her the last two nights, she says she's not angry. I cant understand why not, Im angry, at both of us, me for not showing love, for not picking up the signs, and her for not coming out with this sooner, before it got this bad, and for thinking I wouldnt care, and probably most of all, for not for trying harder right now to open up to me and let the love in.


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## Bigsigh (Oct 26, 2009)

You could always youtube it. there is some short interviews on the message....might help to try that way if time is an issue


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## Ingrid (Aug 12, 2009)

Wow, your story is similar to mine, kids similar ages, we also moved to another state, except I'm the stay-at-home wife in the story who has lost feelings... like you and your wife, we don't argue or fight either, but we never touch anymore... sex is non-existent for some time. We get along "well" on the surface, not cold to each other, we are friendly, in fact, I feel warmly towards him lately. Despite that, I'm sorta feeling it's done, not sure if it's fixable. There are more details/issues that I won't go into, but the core is, I think, we've both changed and what I want has changed; it's not so much a BAD thing but a more natural growing apart... He doesn't want a separation but I envision it every single day, so, unless something magically changes, I foresee that happening...

(I had my story up but deleted it when I saw that the counselor we went to had talkaboutmarriage.com listed as a "recommended site" on the counselor's webpage... don't really want hubby to run across my posting, which would be rather obvious from the details I'd included... )

In any case, I just get the feeling that for your wife, she truly is done, and she's probably been nursing that feeling for a long time now... probably years. It seems like it's been suddenly "sprung" upon you, but in reality, she's probably been sorting it all out quietly in her head, weighing the pro's and cons, and finally gotten the energy to put it out there. 

The very few people who I've told I'm considering a trial separation are shocked and surprised, but they don't realize is that although it is news to them, I've been mulling the situation over for a couple of YEARS... I've already done a lot of the "processing" of the situation but to them it is the first time they heard it (although I'd dropped hints).

And my suggestion is to let her go... I'm sure you wouldn't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you... it's hard and it hurts, but the truth is, the relationship hasn't REALLY existed for some time.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> There are signs, *loosing weight*, which she has been trying to do for years and it finally all came off in the last 3 months. She claims the stress of the relationship and finally getting on the exercise bike did it, I tend to believe that.
> *Lots of new cloths*, but she did loose 20-25 lbs, so nothing fit her any more. other signs like *shaving legs every day*, *buying make up* and hair and nail stuff,* teeth whittening*,


All these are signs that she is either having an affair, or hoping to start one soon. 10 bucks says she is already having one. Losing weight is the #1 sign. That requires the most focus. But being infatuated makes it easy.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

I only disagree with u Mark because, ever since since our 2nd child was born she had an extra 20 or so lbs on her that she always tried to loose and couldnt. Always watched very carefully what she ate but the weight just didnt drop. She finally got wii fitness and an excercise bike in the last year and began using them and all combined it worked. I had told her for years, diet alone wouldnt do it. (But now that I re-read this, the last year is when she fell out of love)

Yesterdays theropy cession didnt happen. She claims she waited in the office for 40 min, then finally went to the window to find out why she hadnt been called, and was told her appt was at another office. she hasnt re-scheduled yet, said she's not sure if she will. Said she was only doing this for me, but that no Dr was going to change her mind.

Ive asked a few times now if she would consider going together, she says she doesnt want to hurt me any more with what she's got to say, and not sure if she will go with me or not. I personally see it as the only way to go.

Yesterday we actually went to dinner, it was nice. It was against her will, she seemed angry, but we had decent conversation, tried to stay away from our problem, spoke mostly about work and the kids. She admitted it wasnt so bad.

I asked her yesterday if she definatly wants to be a divorced women and w/o hesitation, she said yes. I asked what seems good about being divorced and she tells me she wants to be on her own. She has never been on her own and wants to do it. To me that sounded like a mid life crisis type of thing, I said that to her and she said its not.

Last night she also informed me that she has already told her dad and my mom, not sure how I felt about that, maybe a little bothered.

Then she told me that she told my mom that its not me, its her that has changed, she's less tolerant, less loving and caring for me and doesnt want to live this way any more. That is what she told on our very 1st night of talking about this, then it wasnt said again until last night, 4 weeks later. So I asked her was that really the issue, because for the last 4 weeks u been telling me it was the lack of love Ive shown to her that caused her to fall out of love with me. 

Im starting to wonder why she wants out, has 'she' changed, does she want to 'do it alone' or is it my lack of love and affection.

We have friends visiting from out of state arriving soon, I asked her if we can fake a little to hide what is going on, and she reluctlently agreed. Maybe it can stir up something.

I asked her also, if she just wants out so badly that she is affraid that this may work out and is that the reason she fights me so much. she just keeps saying that she feels nothing for me and doesnt expect it to change.

I asked, if she felt there was any possible way that feelings could change would u be willing to work at it, she said yes, but followed it up that they are not going to change.

I keep reading that feelings follow actions. She tells me its the other way around, and all her girl friends agree, that u need the feelings first to do the actions, which is it? Does it depend on if your a male or female?

Thanks again for the help, I look forward to coming to read this.


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## Ingrid (Aug 12, 2009)

My take on all this:

Yes, she has changed.

People change over the course of many years.

You wouldn't expect someone from high school to be the same 20 years later. You would expect change and hopefully maturation.

People assume that after some age (25, 30, who knows?) that this change stops happening. It does not. It may happen more slowly, but people still change.

Trying to peg it as a "mid-life" crisis is a bit demeaning. She's telling you she's changed, you're trying to imply it's not real, or only temporary, and that she'll "snap out of it." She probably won't.

If she has truly changed (and it appears she has), she no longer has the same self-concept she had when she first married you. She had different needs at that time, the love you shared was based on that former self. Now that she has changed, while your love may be the same, her needs are different. It doesn't mean your love is less than it was. It just means, she needs different things now. 

The comparison I'm about to give isn't perfect, but when the time comes for the child to leave the nest, it doesn't mean that the mother's love was imperfect or flawed. It just means the child has grown up. I am not implying your wife was a "child" in any way or that was the dynamic of your relationship. I'm just trying to explain that it's not really about you, and your quality of love, but it really IS all about her. Her changing. It happens.


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## dawnie (Nov 17, 2009)

Danl, I'm so sorry. The feelings versus actions thing depends on the individual. I don't think there is a gender bias there, but I could be wrong. I don't have any ideas for you. If she's not feeling anything, there is nothing really that you can do as you can't change her, she has to change herself. The no-will-to-fight is worrisome and suggests she already opted out of the marriage long before having enough courage to tell you straight up she wants out. I still suggest you get counseling though, if anything to help you sort out your own feelings. Even if it is so that you can maintain some sort of, ... what is the word? Calmness? Professionalism? That's not really the right word, but maybe you get the gist of what I'm trying to say - for the sake of your kids. That you can be civil and polite to each other so your kids don't get used in a turf war. Using the kids in a tug of war is devastating to them, so whatever you do, don't let that happen.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> I only disagree with u Mark because, ever since since our 2nd child was born she had an extra 20 or so lbs on her that she always tried to loose and couldnt. Always watched very carefully what she ate but the weight just didnt drop. She finally got wii fitness and an excercise bike in the last year and began using them and all combined it worked. I had told her for years, diet alone wouldnt do it.


It's all in the timing. It is soooo hard to lose weight without motivation. It's the motivation that needs investigating. To me it says AFFAIR in big shiny letters.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> Then we would go to the bedroom, I would turn on the tv, my excuse was that it was background noise so the kids wouldnt hear us. *I know the tv bothered her, dont know why I always did it anyway*. The clock radio would have been more romantic.


In so doing, you taught her to equate sex with irritability - hers.


danl said:


> The affection I used to show, I recently learned was wrong, I loved her rear end, I always walked up and gave a nice rub or squeeze, then normally followed by a kiss on the neck or cheek, but she recently told me she was always being grooped, and it didnt seem like love or affection.


This is where she is partially lying too you. That's how the memory seems when she recalls it now that she hates you. But at the time she may have liked it. In any case, if you had not have praised her rear end you would have been in the dog house for not appreciating her assets. Don't listen too closely to the details of this. What she is really saying is that you could have gotten away with a lot more crudity if you had also been more romantic. But for that, you would have to learn what *she *finds romantic. Romance is not a universal language. There are quite a few dialects.


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## dawnie (Nov 17, 2009)

Mark you are wrong. Some women HATE their butt being groped. It is one thing to get a gentle cuddle from behind with a kiss on the neck and quite another to feel like a hand is going up your ass. If she hated it, then she hated it. Women have very definite likes and dislikes to how they prefer to be touched and each woman is an individual.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

dawnie said:


> Mark you are wrong. Some women HATE their butt being groped. It is one thing to get a gentle cuddle from behind with a kiss on the neck and quite another to feel like a hand is going up your ass. If she hated it, then she hated it. Women have very definite likes and dislikes to how they prefer to be touched and each woman is an individual.


Very few women are truly like this. Especially with the right guy...


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## dawnie (Nov 17, 2009)

I suppose you know every woman in the world? I am a woman and I have literally hundreds of women friends, in business and social. I know how women think because I hear them talk. All women I have talked to in my adult life, have preferences as to what turns them on and what doesn't. Since THEY are women and women tend to talk to each other quite extensively about things, I would take their opinion on the subject over that of a man, any day. But since you claim you know all about women, it would be fair to just agree to disagree on this particular point.


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## elee (Nov 22, 2009)

Sorry if this has been brought up already, but I only skimmed through most of the replies: The first thought that came through my head is that maybe she is going through the early stages of menopause? When a woman's hormones are changing suddenly, and rapidly, they can show depression like symptoms, confusion, anger, mood swings, etc. 

Has she been to the doctor recently? And I think you mentioned something about her sister having emotional disorders? It should not be ruled out, I would hate to see your marriage fall apart when a trial of meds could help the problem. 

Maybe you could VERY delicately mention to her that as a last resort, to talk with her doctor and see if it could possibly be a medical problem? Or if she refuses, you could call her doctor and explain her behavior and ask if those are symptoms of medical depression, to at least get a professional opinion?


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Maybe I will call a dr, Ive mentioned it to her and she rules it out, nothing medically wrong she says, but to me it seems like mid life crisis, telling me she wants to be on her own all of a sudden, when I asked her why, she says she's never done it before.

BTY, she had a partial historectomy about 2 years ago, could that be throwing a stone into the mix her?

Thanks for all the help, but I think its a hopeless situation, she really seems like she has checked out. We had our first 'fight' last night, a little yelling, cussing, finger pointing, felt good for me to tell her what I felt. This morning she was upset, neither of us slept to well. And for some reason, as the day went on, I didnt feel anger and tention anymore.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> We had our first 'fight' last night, a little yelling, cussing, finger pointing,


You mean you guys never had a heated argument before? Geeeez, marriage can't work without the release of steam. My wife and I argued for the first 10 years. We don't need to argue now


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

In the past its gotten heated, not very often tho, I meant this is the 1st one in the past 4 weeks, since she stabbed me in the heart with that knife. 

As far as the hysterectomy goes, she still has a overi or maybe both, I forget.


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## elee (Nov 22, 2009)

If she still gets her monthly cycle, then she at least has one ovary left, and it's very possible she could be going through menopause, or at least getting ready to. I still think you should pursue the medical possibilities. Not all women react the same to hormonal changes, some it doesn't seem to affect hardly at all, and some take it way way hard.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

She says shes got an ovary or 2, I forgot, but no cycle any more.
I read the symptoms of menopause 2 her, the ones I recognize in her, and she shot down everyone. I must be crazy I guess. 

Im still trying, starting to wonder why tho. Thanks all.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

As of now, we will be making an appt with a theropist, it is against her will, she says he wont change her mind.

She tells me tonight that she has always done for everyone else, and this is finally for her. She needs to find the real love she is missing in this relationship. Says she has no self esteam anymore since I never showed the love, she worries that she cant make a good wife to any body else. shes so wrong, what a great wife she has been.

I cant believe she feels this way, I love her dearly and want to and have been showing it, she just wont open up and let me in. Tonight was one of the best talks in the past 4 weeks, she seemed to really open up to me. Told me all sorts of things that have bothered her in the past. I wish she could just let go of the past, its gone, Ive said I was sorry.

I really love her and miss her loving me. I wish I had done things differntly.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

She couldnt sleep last night, feels angry and fustrated about going to the therapist. Today she was also annoyed when I got up, she tells me she feels trapped. 

I dont want either of us to be feeling so miserable, we both want such different things out of this, she wants out, I want to stay in. 
Dont know if I should persue the therapist or not. She says to do it so that 'I can say we did it' meaning me. but she is just so unhappy about it.

On a side note, we met when she was 17, as we were getting to know each other, maybe a year or so into the Relationship we asked about and discussed previous sex partners. She had told me there was only 1 other guy before me, I was happy about that. Last night that came up and now she tells me she had 3 before me. I know its well over 21 years ago but for all these years knowing now she wasnt honest about that, and the fact that before 17 yrs old she had sex with 3 other guys, it just blew me away. 2 where boyfriends, she had gone out with them 2 and 3 years, so I can understand, the 3rd was just a friend that she said she was attracted to and one day they decided to step up the relationship and it didnt work out. 

I know Im worried about nothing here, but it was just a shocker to me. Im having a hard time with that.

I just this to work out and I dont see it happening.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> Tonight was one of the best talks in the past 4 weeks, she seemed to really open up to me. Told me all sorts of things that have bothered her in the past.


You need to write down the list she gave you. trust me, you will forget everything on the list. And it will be no use asking her again.

Write it all down. Even if half the list is nonsense, write it down.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

whats the reason for writing it down? Some things go back to when we 1st started dating and still lived with our parents. What can I do about it now?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> whats the reason for writing it down? Some things go back to when we 1st started dating and still lived with our parents. What can I do about it now?


When you sit there trying to work out what went wrong, it's useful to go over what little information you have. Women aren't usually very frank. However, every now and again they will spill the beans. If you don't write it down it will be lost, and she won't tell you again. In your situation, you need all the help you can get.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks.
From what u know of us so far, do u think the theropy can help?, I ask because she is so against it and angry about going, I dont see her letting him work on us properly.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> Thanks.
> From what u know of us so far, do u think the theropy can help?,


Not in the way you are thinking.
The fastest way for you to change your situation is for you to work on yourself. So on that basis, if you went to a really good therapist *on your own*, you could make huge progress.

At the end of that, she would either find you more attractive, or you would feel able to move on. Right now you are attempting the impossible - to change your life by changing her.

Yes she is withholding affection... but you are half of the relationship.

Really, even you don't need a therapist. If you just read a bunch of self help books, you would suddenly see yourself from a different perspective. It's the perception that is key. 

You are trying to change what you don't like in your relationship by changing your wife. That won't work. If you had the expanded perception that I'm talking about, you would instantly cognize what *would *work. Every day, millions of men in your situation wake up and suddenly grasp what is going on. That realisation produces the change.

It's easier to work on yourself. A result is guaranteed. If you try to work on the other person, the result is... undefined.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Got it, I was told the same thing today by the therapist, Ive been doing lots of reading, the lastest book Im on was recomended by him.

Thanks again. Hope my time doesnt run out before its too late,


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## Ed R (Nov 26, 2009)

I can't believe this. I am going through this exact thing. It could have been my post. You are not alone. I am cried out also. Please see my post above titled Wife has ADHD. As crazy as it sounds, your wife could also suffer from undiagnosed ADHD. It has the ability to just appear. Hers did after 13 yrs of marriage and two teens. My friend this is such a duplicate to mine. Go online and read about signs of adult ADHD. Do search for ADHD and sex, intimate relationships. Let me know what you think.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Thanks Ed, will do some reading. She keeps saying its not medical, but Im still digging for somthing.

I cant believe how many of the same situations I read about on here, or have been told about buy friends. It almost seems like they just snap all of a sudden and want out of their relationships.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Now Im even deeper into the hole. She gave me reasons to think she didnt go to work on Wed, she went in 2 hrs. later then usual, then when I called her desk at 10am to let her know I was leaving for work, she didnt answer, I called several times for 3 hrs with no answer, I even called her cell at 12:00 because she leaves the building for lunch, also called the front desk number and it went to voice mail, I started to wonder if the place was closed and she was someplace else.
So as a really stupid move I called someone she works with from one of my stops during the day, I purposly didnt use my cell so it couldnt come back to me, I attempted to use star67 so the number wouldnt show, but it wouldnt dial out, so I just dialed the number, it also went to voice mail. Then a little while later the person I called called back the number to see who called, and I was ratted out, the person that answered the phone described me, my uniform shirt and such, and it got back to my wife since Im the only one she knew of that works for that company.
So needless to say my wife called me and knew what I did, and 2 days later is still pissed, will hardly talk to me, and told me that she is even more done with me and this confirmed that we are done since I dont trust her.
She wont see things my way, I keep telling her all the signs she keeps giving me. She told me she hasnt looked for love any where yet, but that Im going to push her to do it, again it seems like it will be done out of revenge. 
As of now she wont go with me to counsiling on tuesday.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> She wont see things my way, I keep telling her all the signs she keeps giving me. She told me she hasnt looked for love any where yet, but that Im going to push her to do it, *again it seems like it will be done out of revenge. *
> As of now she wont go with me to counsiling on tuesday.


Have you ever heard the phrase "offence is the best form of defence"? I think she is already seeing someone. And the sentence in bold shows she has totally fooled you.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Im really starting to think it to Mark, it really hurts to think it, but its getting more real to me each day. Too many signs.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

What do u mean about the offence/defence thing, just keep backing off, Ive been doing that as much as possible, but then there is no communication, she wont even stay in the same room with me.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> What do u mean about the offence/defence thing, just keep backing off, Ive been doing that as much as possible, but then there is no communication, she wont even stay in the same room with me.


"offence is the best form of defence" - it is an old phrase. It means if you are asked if you're having an affair, you attack the other person for having even the faintest notion. And in so doing you cover up the fact that actually, you are having an affair.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Well she certainly didnt attack me back when I have asked, and I have asked right to her face at least 3 times. She is pissed at the fact that I called one of her co-workers to check on her and to see if she was at work. 
I asked her the other night to swear to me that she wasnt cheating, and she nodded her head, then asked her to swear on the kids, and again she nodded her head, I wish I had asked her to actually say the words, that would have made me feel better.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> then asked her to swear on the kids


That is soooo weak of you. I hope you are ashamed of yourself. Leave your kids out of this. What you are doing is so un-appealing. Get a grip.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

What you need to do is work on yourself. Don't bother talking to her about your fears any more - every word you breath makes you appear weaker.

With all her drama, she is the one leading this relationship. If you question her like a love-sick puppy you are reinforcing her leadership by following. Become your own master. Be a man. Find other things to think about all day, and let her feel your attention being withdrawn from her.

Are you fit and healthy?


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Yes, fit and healthy, I know Im weak, this is tearing me up, the thought that she wants out so badly after 21 years together, and w/o any 'real' warning to me, just some stupid signs.

I do need to find things to do to keep me busy, Taking the kids to a movie today and some yard work will help kill some of my day.

Thanks Mark, u do help me more then u might think. I need support.

She told me last night 1 reason she wont go to a therapist is 'she doesnt believe in them'. I asked what do u mean by that, she said they will only teach her to live with the problem which she doesnt want to do, and they wont change her mind. I still think its worth a shot, cant get much worse.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> She told me last night 1 reason she wont go to a therapist is 'she doesnt believe in them'. I asked what do u mean by that, she said they will only teach her to live with the problem which she doesnt want to do, and they wont change her mind. I still think its worth a shot, cant get much worse.


You need to stop seeing her as the problem. This is your biggest problem. I'm not saying that the chick isn't crazy... 

But do you want the fast track? Do you want to get from A to Z without going through b,c,d,e,g... etc.??

Then do this:

Realise that whenever we come across something in our lives that we find detestable, lacklustre or difficult, then 99 times out of 100 we probably helped to bring it about. When we conduct our lives in a more concious manner this process starts to reveal itself more and more. 

Many a time I've opened my mouth to criticize my wife only to shut it again - before a word was uttered. Why? Because just as I was about to speak, I saw how I was bringing it on myself. My wife was only "holding the mirror".

This is not just some hippy BS I'm giving you. You will find it to be "as real as real can be" if you pursue it. Your wife will reflect back to you tirelessly, over and over again, just like a concrete pillar will hurt your head over and over again if you insist on banging your head into it repeatedly.

So you want the fast track? Turn your attention away from your wife inwards to yourself. Look at your life. Look at what you are doing. Look at where you are going. Look at the signals you are giving out.

Read my article again: Sexless Marriage? Hell, read all my articles! When you reach a point where you want to succeed in all the areas you fall short, success is guaranteed  All people need is the motivation.

I don't care if your wife comes along for the ride. She may or may not be ready to evolve. But you are the one who is posting, so you are the one that is ready to blossom. 

If she is not attracted to your flowering, don't worry 100 other women will be, and believe me _THAT _will get her attention. Your kids will most likely survive no matter what happens. So take a load of your back and relax


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

danl said:


> the thought that she wants out so badly after 21 years together, and w/o any 'real' warning to me, just some stupid signs.


No, that's not how it works at all.

There were some little signs. You ignored them, so there were some bigger signs, and after that you got some 
big big signs 

So if it turns out she is having an affair, it's really just a very big sign. It does not make you "wrong", it just means your behaviour over the years contributed to it. But it might also mean that she was destined to cheat with whoever she married. In that case, it still beggs the question, "why did you get involved with her"? And even then, that does not make her "bad" or you "stupid". It's just life. It may well work out OK in the end. Especially if ONE of you wakes up, and fast.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

MarkTwain said:


> "offence is the best form of defence" - it is an old phrase. It means if you are asked if you're having an affair, you attack the other person for having even the faintest notion. And in so doing you cover up the fact that actually, you are having an affair.


Like a number of things you say, Mark, this is wrong. The original phrase is "the best offense is a good defense" Women are individuals--as are men. Anyone who expects sex to know exactly what they feel/mean/think under pressure is stupid. Men need time to verbalize their thoughts clearly, just like women. Women are NOT trying to dissemble any more than men; they may just be trying to work out their feelings and thoughts, verbally. We get accused of "not being frank" or **** like that, as though men are always 100% clear ON THE SPOT about their thoughts/feelings, etc. Please. 

quit stereo-typing. Quit assuming every individual is the same. Quit telling him to ignore what his wife says--it's a piece of the puzzle. If she didn't like her ass groped in the kitchen, she didn't like it. It wasn't romantic, it was sexual (to her, according to what he says). There's a difference. Had she been happy and attracted to him when he did it, maybe she would have liked it at that moment, but as a "romantic" gesture, it totally sucked. I don't want sexual acts when I'm thinking romance, and maybe she's like that. 

You have some good stuff to offer, but please discounting individual women. It is so offensive.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

sisters359 said:


> Like a number of things you say, Mark, this is wrong. The original phrase is "the best offense is a good defense"


Interesting...

I had never heard that version, so I googled "the best offense is a good defense". It gets 1.1 million hits.

I then googled "offense is the best defense" that only gets 30K hits.

It seems that in crossing the Atlantic, the phrase must have changed.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Looks like its just me tonight going to theropy, she backed out and wont budge. She wants out of this marriage so bad, told me again last night.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

MarkTwain said:


> Interesting...
> 
> I had never heard that version, so I googled "the best offense is a good defense". It gets 1.1 million hits.
> 
> ...


I looked it up, too. Your phrase is older--from a military strategist. In the US, the phrase is most commonly used in the opposite and it's a sports reference. Not being a fan of "first strike" or "pre-emptive strike" policies, and having coached for years and years, the original seems ill-advised to me (when Bush used the phrase the way you did, that was the first time I heard it like that. Sounded wrong then, and still does.)

On this side of the pond, it's common "knowledge" that defense wins games. Maybe offense wins wars. I hope not, that just seems wrong.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

The theropy help me feel a lot better. Ive left her completly alone for 2 full days now, and all thats done is cause more distance. No phone call from her when she's on her way home from work, no kiss when I come home, she wont come into a room if Im in it. 

I guess things are rolling along just as she wants it.

Hope she considers theropy next week. She did text me yesterday and said she would think about it, but not because she wants to go, because I want her to go. So IF she does go, it will most likley be a waste of time.

Pray for me please.
Thanks


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## noideato20 (Oct 27, 2009)

Dan I will pray for you. Im very sorry your hurting right now. I have alot of empathy for. On a positive note though at least she said she would do it. Thats better than flat out refusal. Be strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I can't tell you how hard it is to watch other people go through this process and watch them make the exact same mistakes and suffer through the exact same responses that I, and so many others here have experienced. It's creepy, and even more so because it's literally almost cookie-cutter. That isn't meant to minimize what you are going through. However, it most definitely means that those that have gone before you know where the trenches and landmines are.

I will reiterate what has already been contributed here by a number of others.

- You cannot fix or change her, no matter how desperately you want to hang on to the marriage. And the more desperate you are, the greater the odds that you DON'T get the outcome you are looking for.

- The harder you try to fix it; attempting to be sweet, initiate interaction, check up on her, ask her if she is depressed, has ADHD, menopause, give her books to read, etc ... the greater you contribute to her resentment of you. She doesn't want to be close to you. She doesn't want you telling her that she is the problem. So by continuing to do those things? You alienate her further.

- Focus on you. Regardless of what happens here? YOU need to make changes and adjustments in your life to move forward with, or without her. The sooner you recognize and embrace this one thing, you move to the threshold of an outcome, and avoid potentially months or years, of more pain. Set limits with yourself and with her, and stick to them. 

- There is someone else. I'm not saying your wife is having sex, but she is receiving emotional support from another man. I could point out all of the flashing red neon signs, but they won't do you any good. Nor will confronting her do any good at this point. Your best recourse whether this is true or not, is to assume the worse case scenario: your wife is lying to you, and banging someone else, and that's why she wants out. You have no way to prove it, and she isn't going to tell you. Assuming worst case, what should you do? Refer to the step above, 'Focus on you'. The someone else is not the cause of your problems. It is the result of your problems. 

- You have to let go to hang on. This is the one that makes absolutely no sense when you feel uncertain, terrified, abandoned and grief stricken.
She wants to move out? Don't fight it. If anything encourage it. YOU need to become a person beyond the scope of your marriage - as an individual. The sooner you begin to establish a 'self' instead of the concept of an 'us', she will notice. Once you stop focusing on her, she can't help but notice. By letting go of who you were as a husband, and emphasizing who you are as a person and a man, you will recognize that you don't need her. I'm not saying that you may not still love her - but your survival, success, and happiness is not incumbent upon her. It belongs to you. You have sole ownership and responsibility for your life. This is what will make you attractive to her once again. And if it doesn't ... you will flourish regardless.

You are going to hear these same things over and over from different people with different perspectives. 

Here is my last anecdote. You aren't on the clock. There isn't a timeframe in which you win or lose this thing. This takes me back to why I encourage you to encourage her to move out. The sooner she is dealing with that reality, you remove the bulk of her reasons to resent you. If she moves out and then insists on divorce, ask her what her hurry is? (BTW if she were to do this, it's in the bag that she's having an affair) Time apart will give you both perspective. You are convinced that you will be utterly miserable, and she is convinced that she will have freedom and happiness. You're both wrong.

Go to therapy for yourself. Stop insisting that she goes. Doing so only means even if she does go, she will get nothing out of it.


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## noideato20 (Oct 27, 2009)

Yep Dan I think deejo has a point. I told my husband to go and he went. At least now when Im so angry I dont have to see him setting on the couch. Im still angry though Im ranting. You can definetly tell when youve lost them.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Deejo said:


> - There is someone else. I'm not saying your wife is having sex, but she is receiving emotional support from another man. I could point out all of the flashing red neon signs, but they won't do you any good. Nor will confronting her do any good at this point. Your best recourse whether this is true or not, is to assume the worse case scenario: your wife is lying to you, and banging someone else, and that's why she wants out. You have no way to prove it, and she isn't going to tell you. Assuming worst case, what should you do? Refer to the step above, 'Focus on you'. The someone else is not the cause of your problems. It is the result of your problems.


Thanks Deego, but this paragraph really hurt, please point out the red flags. I need to know what Im missing.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

- Timeframe. By most of your indications the most dramatic changes in how she responds to you have occurred within a relatively short period.

- Removing her wedding ring without making you aware. This is far less a statement about what she thinks, than what she wants others to think. Specifically, other men.

- Taking a distinct interest in her appearance. Sudden weight loss.

- Her insistence that you are 'below rock bottom', her comment about her wish that you didn't love her. 

- She had already been reaching out to other men via phone, texts.

- Turning her cell phone off when home.

- Wanting to 'get away' staying at the hotel 

- Insisting that 'she is putting herself first'. The subtext of this is; "I'm not happy with you, and now that I have found someone I believe I can be happy with, I want out - now."

I appreciate the input that others have given you in terms of actions you can take to demonstrate your love and make her feel valued, supported, respected ... but the fact of the matter is, you are way beyond the point where that can have any kind of positive impact. That stuff isn't wrong ... but it is wrong NOW. Doing it now is flat out, counterproductive. I know this, because I did it.

The harder I worked at being close, the more distant, detached and hostile she became. Tears and pleading didn't draw sympathy and compassion, it was more like throwing gas on a fire. It makes you look pathetic - and gives her more reason to despise you. And this particular behavior, just like with your wife, became more sudden and severe, after she crossed the line with someone else.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

Im hearing u loud and clear. Trying to keep my distance and lay off her, but like everyone is saying, it may to far gone now. 

Im dealing with that better now then 5 or 6 weeks ago.

Thanks for the input.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

sisters359 said:


> On this side of the pond, it's common "knowledge" that defense wins games. Maybe offense wins wars. I hope not, that just seems wrong.


In any case, I was not advising it. I was saying that danl's wife was going on the offensive as a way of defending herself and making herself seem to be in the right.


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## Tweak (Nov 18, 2009)

What would be gained or lost if she was to admit to an affair?

Lying about it is one thing,Lying about it and saying the marriage is over is something else.If she did indeed have a affair going and admitted to it,she would then be the bad guy in her mind.

Seems like if she is in a affair then she is trying to make it look like its all the OP's fault.

Thing is,is it truly possible to actually fall out of love in a relationship?Or is it rather that the relationship grows so stale the resentment over rides all past feelings?

If it comes down to divorce.The wife owes the husband the truth if a affair is/was happening.The OP maybe needs to be more on his toes about this.I would not want to be blindsided by a affair.I agree there are lots of little red lights going off with this particular case.
However,the problem would only be compounded if he searched her cell phone logs or had her followed and she found out and she truly was not cheating.

Good luck OP


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

well, things are only worse since my last post. I did a lot of diging on the cheating thing, came real close to finding something them found out nothing is going on. I do finally believe nothing is happening, I hope Im right.

Either way she is so determinded to be divorced. No more talk about seeing a therapist, but she did find the time to see a lawyer and get ideas from him. Now my child support amount has doubled from what she originally told me she wanted.

I am 110% convinced she is having a midlife crisis. She is everything I read, but she denies it herself. Its so annoying that I point out to her what she has said and done and its all there on the screen in front of me and she denies it all. 

I wish I could find a way out of this mess, and save us from this divorce but it seems hopeless, I think it was hopeless from the start of this almost 8 weeks ago. She has had her mind set since the 1st night we spoke that she wanted out.

I told her yesterday that I remember a few months ago, her sister was here, I was doing a some painting and hanging a shelf, and a comment was made by my wife that I was a good husband, so I asked, 'what did I do wrong? how did I go from being a good husband a few months ago to being bad enough that u want to be divorced from me today?' Thats when she said for the 3rd time in 8 weeks, 'its not u, its me, Ive changed' So I jumped on that and said if your admitting you've changed, why cant u admit your going thru a midlife crisis?

I love her and am going to miss her a whole lot. Life sucks right now.

Please pray for us, that we can come out of this before its to late.

Thank you.


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## danl (Nov 14, 2009)

I forgot to mention, she moved out of the bedroom last week, she's now sleeping on the couch or in the spareroom, and there are no more kiss's hello or goodbye now. Its colder and more lonely then ever now. 

I just joined a Midlife crisis forum, boy its some scary stuff, but there is no doupt, that is what she is going thru.


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