# Honest Question



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

1st let me say that this forum has been so helpful to me, I can not even express the full magnitude of life saving advice I have received. 

I am at the parting of ways from my wife legally (and soon geographically)...I parted otherwise about a month back. The Divorce is moving quicker that I anticipated, with no contest from her. I am a free agent as of the 16th of next month. So now I am looking hard at who I am and wishing to achieve some sort of growth so I can put this disaster I called a marriage behind me and also so if I do have a relationship again....I will not screw things up again. 

So let me summarize. I was what was called a Betta male...I guess. I am also by nature a introverted geeky/Nerdy guy. I am good looking enough...or at least I was told so by a rather attractive 20-ish girl recently (too bad that makes her off limits to me....as I am not my wife). The self help books, and my IC seem to think I need to be more out going and such but as I said....that really is not me. 

I guess I am asking is that it seems that all the advise I am getting seems to be counter to what I have accepted and even like about myself. Anyone else go through anything like this? any suggestions?


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I know what you are talking about. As lots of the traits I am told I should have just are not me and I wouldn't feel comfortable just adopting them out tot the blue. What I would suggest is to try and change some of the things that you would like to see in your self a little at a time. If you are comfortable with yourself otherwise, then I would not worry about it too much. Too many on here like to throw the Alph/ Beta theory around (and it has merits) but in the end the cheating is on their character and really if they want to they will do it no matter how you classify yourself (S BOTH Alphas and Betas get cheated on).

The best thing is to be happy in your own skin and that in itself will make you attractive to lots of people.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

All the alpha/beta/MMSL/NMMNG crap is fine and dandy, but can you imagine what the world would be like if every guy was like that?? *shudder*

My hubby is an introvert and a geek. He's very 'nice'. To a point. When push comes to shove he does what he should. He also gives off more than enough testosterone to set my heart pitter pattering. 

Self improvement is always a good thing, but only if it's true to who you really are. Keep that in mind and you will be fine. And don't place too much emphasis on 'being with' someone as your goal. Be happy being you, apart from anyone else. Finding the love of your life should be a bonus, not your reason for being.


----------



## AZman (Nov 27, 2012)

Dude don't go crazy trying to change yourself unless you want to. If you change yourself to try to meet people or be someone you don't want to be then you are going to be miserable. There are women that love the geeky, nerdy types just as there are women that love the douchey azzhat I am a big bad alpha respect me now- types. 

Self-improvement is great, but make sure you are comfortable with who you are and who you are becoming.


----------



## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

dont change who you are because you married a woman of ill repute. sometimes marriages just dont work out and sometimes we marry the wrong people (on marriage 2 here) so dont change. find someone who will love you for who you are not what you think they want


----------



## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

Are you asking "Should I learn to be an "A%%Hole in all my dealing in life"? That would be NO! but...........

You could do something different. Travel to the Far East. Skydive. Take up Boxing. Learn French and go to Paris.

That part of you life is over, start a new life. You could read to Vet's at the VA Home.(Old people have the CRAZIEST STORIES.) Well, that is my thought.


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Be happy with who you are and always show that you are secure in that. 

My personal experience has been that the best way to do this is to clearly define your boundaries and expectations. 

Then chisel those lines in granite instead of drawing them in sand.

Done right, you should come across to the world as confident instead of arrogant.

And confidence is always attractive.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> I know what you are talking about. As lots of the traits I am told I should have just are not me and I wouldn't feel comfortable just adopting them out tot the blue. What I would suggest is to try and change some of the things that you would like to see in your self a little at a time. If you are comfortable with yourself otherwise, then I would not worry about it too much. Too many on here like to throw the Alph/ Beta theory around (and it has merits) but in the end the cheating is on their character and really if they want to they will do it no matter how you classify yourself (S BOTH Alphas and Betas get cheated on).
> 
> The best thing is to be happy in your own skin and that in itself will make you attractive to lots of people.


One thing I'll never understand.

We are told here not to be a nice guy as the archetypical nice guy always does things with the expectation of getting something in return. "I do everything she wants and she still won't let me have sex."

But then they tell you to become alpha with the expectation of getting sex.

What's the difference?


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

RNS said:


> 1st let me say that this forum has been so helpful to me, I can not even express the full magnitude of life saving advice I have received.
> 
> I am at the parting of ways from my wife legally (and soon geographically)...I parted otherwise about a month back. The Divorce is moving quicker that I anticipated, with no contest from her. I am a free agent as of the 16th of next month. So now I am looking hard at who I am and wishing to achieve some sort of growth so I can put this disaster I called a marriage behind me and also so if I do have a relationship again....I will not screw things up again.
> 
> ...



Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

RNS said:


> 1st let me say that this forum has been so helpful to me, I can not even express the full magnitude of life saving advice I have received.
> 
> I am at the parting of ways from my wife legally (and soon geographically)...I parted otherwise about a month back. The Divorce is moving quicker that I anticipated, with no contest from her. I am a free agent as of the 16th of next month. So now I am looking hard at who I am and wishing to achieve some sort of growth so I can put this disaster I called a marriage behind me and also so if I do have a relationship again....I will not screw things up again.
> 
> ...


The typical woman responds to men who exhibit certain traits and the lingo usually calls these guys alpha or sigma. Most men don't fit that bill and that takes us to the Pareto Principal, which is that in raw nature 20% of the males propagate 80% of the offspring. And we see in humans that while most men are attracted to most women, most women are somewhat repelled by most men.

If you are happy to not exhibit the traits that attract most women, that's perfectly okay. 20% of the women may have a high level of attraction to you and plenty of the others are probably sick of "alhpa" and are ready to settle. Since you prefer older women, your odds of finding one or more women are even better, since most of the attractive men going after younger women.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

RNS said:


> I am also by nature a introverted geeky/Nerdy guy.


Being geeky, introverted and nerdy is one thing and not a real problem with women. Adding needy, and always saying "yes dear" to the mix is where you start running into problems. 
A good primer is to listen to Bobby Dyland's It Ain't Me, Babe.


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Alphas rarely get cheated. Because the wife knows she will be divorced.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OP,

It is not so much about being an extrovert or outgoing, or even about demonstrating male aggressiveness.

It all boils down, in my opinion, to being your true self, but having the rock solid self-confidence and self respect to walk the path your personality and character lead you down.

What I mean by that is this.

Don't ever take s**t or disrespect off of anyone, ESPECIALLY your future partners,

Refuse in any way to have or keep a relationship with someone who cannot treat you with respect and loyalty UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

People are walked on in this world, not because they are subdued/quiet, or nice, or introverted.

They are walked on because they have let others know, through actions, words, or demeanor, that they do not stand up for themselves.

They tolerate the s****y behavior of others towards themselves.

In most cases, they are not even aware that they convey this message to others.

Its fine to be as nice and respectful as possible with others, and yet, still demonstrate through words and actions that you WILL NOT tolerate others crossing your boundaries.


----------



## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

What??? Hit up the hot looking 20 something already. Like yesterday. 

Seriously, your relationship and marriage is over between your wife. Move on. 

As far as the other stuff, it's just a personality really. Some guys like taking risks, have game, are the "bad boy" or "alpha" type. Some guys aren't. 

The real question is. 

Why didn't you pick up the hot 20 something chick?!?!!


----------



## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> The typical woman responds to men who exhibit certain traits and the lingo usually calls these guys alpha or sigma. Most men don't fit that bill and that takes us to the Pareto Principal, which is that in raw nature 20% of the males propagate 80% of the offspring. And we see in humans that while most men are attracted to most women, most women are somewhat repelled by most men.


Hi Machiavelli,

I am new here and have not read that many posts. I, however, have read about this alpha/beta/omega stuff several times. A buddy of mine have also told me about the pick up artist stuff, and I must say...I laughed out loud. It actually sounds like a true nerdy stuff...and not in a cute-nerdy way, but actually really weird nerdy. 

There are TWO traits that attracts most women..and they are confidence and sense of humour. You don't have to be an aggressive, all muscle guy. If we just want to see men with 8-packs, we can go to chippendale club. Even better, we won't have to deal with the idiotic stuff they may do and say.

Some women like guys who skydive, some women like guys who read books. Some women like guys who are street-smart, some like guys who are book smart. But I don't know any women who like men who are needy with no self-respect. I think this is what you call "beta" guys? But being a confident geek with sense of humour is not beta, at all. 

OP is not a beta guy just because he doesn't spend 2 hours a day at the gym. He is also not a beta just because he is nice to everyone. Someone is only a beta is they let people step all over them. Being nice and kind is not equal to being a pushover. 

Finally, from my experience, an over-aggressive, all muscle (and little brain) guy is not attractive at all. In fact, they seem to hide a lot of insecurity and over-compensate it. 

To OP, just build your self-confidence and stay true to who you are. You can be assertive and not let anyone disrespect you without being a jerk.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Stronger-now said:


> Hi Machiavelli,
> 
> I am new here and have not read that many posts. I, however, have read about this alpha/beta/omega stuff several times. A buddy of mine have also told me about the pick up artist stuff, and I must say...I laughed out loud. It actually sounds like a true nerdy stuff...and not in a cute-nerdy way, but actually really weird nerdy.
> 
> ...


If I could like this a thousand times I would.

Just be a confident man and don't take any shet.

Simple.


I personally think there are two kinds of beta which get mixed up.
There are beta traits, home building actions like laundry, cooking, good with the kids, cleaning and gentle loving.

Contrast this to the alpha traits, dressing sharp, looking as good as you can, being adventurous, risk taking, doing 'man stuff' and 'taking' your wife on occasion.

Then there are so called 'beta' guys. I really think they should be renamed doormat guys. these are the guys, as Stronger says, that are needy and have no self respect. These guys may have started off as non needy men but have let themselves go over their married life.
Not very attractive to most women.

So I think calling actions beta or alpha is fine.

But 'beta' guys should be renamed as doormats or some similar term. By calling doormats 'beta' guys it gives the wrong impression of beta traits, somehow relegating them to a lesser importance than alpha traits. Whereas in reality a good husband is a confident man and has a functional blend of alpha and beta traits which is ideal for his marriage.


----------



## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

RNS you are a cool guy. I would definitely hang out with you anytime. 

Don't change. 

Your STBXW is a bad apple. She will continue down her road of destructiveness until she is utterly spent. You just keep going like you are going and you will hook up with a woman who will not cheat on you and who will love every geeky bone in your nerdy body.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

If you are putting on any sort of act. Trying to be the Alpha, or the cool guy, the hipster... Whatever you think is what you want to project. If it isn't really you. You end up looking like a clown.

Most people can spot it and it comes off as sad. So if you want to improve yourself or change things make sure it feels right to you. It's about enhancing who you are not a personality transplant. 

But what do I know I'm just a girl, I don't even know how I got here !


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

RNS said:


> 1st let me say that this forum has been so helpful to me, I can not even express the full magnitude of life saving advice I have received.
> 
> I am at the parting of ways from my wife legally (and soon geographically)...I parted otherwise about a month back. The Divorce is moving quicker that I anticipated, with no contest from her. I am a free agent as of the 16th of next month. So now I am looking hard at who I am and wishing to achieve some sort of growth so I can put this disaster I called a marriage behind me and also so if I do have a relationship again....I will not screw things up again.
> 
> ...


You've been cheated on and that sucks. But you weren't cheated on for being introverted or geeky..I mean at some point you courted your wife and won her heart right?

There is a randomness of meeting someone out of the millions of people that are in this world, add to that, the probability of finding someone that is exactly compatible with you widens the odds even more.

Just be yourself. But now you know the warning signs and will more likely be very careful before you give somebody your heart. That is life. Go forth and live it.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

illwill said:


> Alphas rarely get cheated. Because the wife knows she will be divorced.


They tend to get cuckolded when the wife decides she's had her fill of alpha and gets in the market for a KSA beta-provider.


----------



## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I don't think being introverted has anything to do with a lack of confidence. Some people are more outgoing, more gregarious and some are not. I don't buy into the Alpha/Beta stuff being spewed on this site too much.

For me the most important thing about not being seen as the "nice guy" which has become synonymous with "door-mat", is knowing what your boundaries are, what you will tolerate and what you won't and proactively enforcing them. You can be an introvert and accomplish this. It is about knowing when to say, "No." without caving and having natural consequences for the person that doesn't respect that.

Secondly, it's about knowing who you are and doing things that advance who you are as a person in your own mind. Don't ever entrench your individuality so much into the person you are married to, dating, intimate with. You need to be your own person first. Have hobbies and interests, take a course and learn a new skill, have your own friends, have new adventures on your own to bring to the table to round out your life and add to it. 

Another part of the second point is to make sure you take care of you physically. As a woman, after the SHTF with my WS, I did things that made me feel sexy and not for anyone other than myself. I upgraded my entire wardrobe, I exercised - much with my kids by taking them swimming and lost a lot of weight (from my pregnancy). I also got a new haircut, new make-up and pampered myself. Externally I felt great, looked great and it helped me to pick my confidence off of the floor. When men hit on me, I flirted back. Something I had never done in my years of loyalty to WS. I wasn't ready to pursue anything further than exchanging some glances and compliments but it still made me feel good inside. Especially as a new "stereotypical" single mum who was worried about eventually finding someone new when I have two kids in toe. 

I am quite extroverted but I don't think you need to be an extrovert to do any of this. Introverted men are known as the "strong, silent type" for a reason. Personally, I've always been attracted to introverts because those that talk less listen more and when they do speak up, it's usually worth hearing.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Stronger-now said:


> Hi Machiavelli,
> 
> I am new here and have not read that many posts. I, however, have read about this alpha/beta/omega stuff several times. A buddy of mine have also told me about the pick up artist stuff, and I must say...I laughed out loud. It actually sounds like a true nerdy stuff...and not in a cute-nerdy way, but actually really weird nerdy.


We're not really talking about PUA on this forum (other than cøckblocking them), we're talking LTR attraction by appealing to women's limbic cues.



Stronger-now said:


> There are TWO traits that attracts most women..and they are confidence


Yes, that's absolutely correct. And how do guys get confidence? By having a hot girl you've never met grind her crotch on your leg in the break room. Or hang her g string on your guitar neck while you're in the middle of an extended solo. Or your female boss comes up behind your chair and rests her enhanced boobs on your shoulders while she's overlooking your work. Nothing breeds success like success. Especially when it comes to you with no effort. Unfortunately, most guys will never experience any of the above, except rarely. They are the 80% in the Pareto Principle.




Stronger-now said:


> and sense of humour.


I can still say corny marginally unfunny stuff and some girls will still find it hilarious. Or at least act like they do. Why do you suppose that is?



Stronger-now said:


> You don't have to be an aggressive, all muscle guy. If we just want to see men with 8-packs, we can go to chippendale club. Even better, we won't have to deal with the idiotic stuff they may do and say.


So why do women seek it out?



Stronger-now said:


> Some women like guys who skydive, some women like guys who read books. Some women like guys who are street-smart, some like guys who are book smart. But I don't know any women who like men who are needy with no self-respect. I think this is what you call "beta" guys? But being a confident geek with sense of humour is not beta, at all.



Read this to find out what I'm talking about. 



Stronger-now said:


> OP is not a beta guy just because he doesn't spend 2 hours a day at the gym. He is also not a beta just because he is nice to everyone. Someone is only a beta is they let people step all over them. Being nice and kind is not equal to being a pushover.


None of those characteristics have anything to do with alpha or beta. If you read the link above, you'll see that these are just buzzwords for the types of men who consistently receive high rates (or not) of female attention.



Stronger-now said:


> Finally, from my experience, an over-aggressive, all muscle (and little brain) guy is not attractive at all. In fact, they seem to hide a lot of insecurity and over-compensate it.


And that's fine, in your experience. In my experience, I get lots more female attention when I have a six pack than I do when I'm 70# overweight or thin as a rail. I've been all three and the difference in the female response is mind-blowing.



Stronger-now said:


> To OP, just build your self-confidence and stay true to who you are. You can be assertive and not let anyone disrespect you without being a jerk.


And that's fine. As I said in my earlier comment, there are plenty of women in that Pareto 20% who are on the ends of the bell curve who will find him attractive (see the 20 year old he rejected), and there are plenty more who are looking for a beta/delta, at least for the moment.


----------



## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, that's absolutely correct. And how do guys get confidence? By having a hot girl you've never met grind her crotch on your leg in the break room. Or hang her g string on your guitar neck while you're in the middle of an extended solo. Or your female boss comes up behind your chair and rests her enhanced boobs on your shoulders while she's overlooking your work. Nothing breeds success like success. Especially when it comes to you with no effort. Unfortunately, most guys will never experience any of the above, except rarely. They are the 80% in the Pareto Principle.


No sh*t. 

Well, thank you for clarifying your view on this matter. We obviously have different opinions of what "confidence" is. I think it comes from within, not from external validation from opposite sex. My confidence comes from excelling at what I do. I don't need attention from opposite sex to feel good about myself. *shrug* oh well...good luck with your endeavour on being an adonis.


----------



## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

I really wish people would drop the whole alpha/beta mentality crap.

After my failed R, I was depressed and became more introverted than I already was. Hell, I couldnt get the attention of any woman I tried to talk to.

Finally a female friend of mine said, "You constantly walk around with your head down, looking mad and depressed, no one wants to talk to you or approach you."

I didnt even realize it until she pointed it out. I got on AD's and things really turned around for me.

Three things every guy should know:
1) Have confidence and the world will admire.
2) A woman can love you, and **** your best friend. We are Polyamorous. Deal with it.
3) One day you're going to die... And it might be sooner than you think.


----------



## Stronger-now (Oct 31, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> If you are putting on any sort of act. Trying to be the Alpha, or the cool guy, the hipster... Whatever you think is what you want to project. If it isn't really you. You end up looking like a clown.
> 
> *Most people can spot it and it comes off as sad.* So if you want to improve yourself or change things make sure it feels right to you. It's about enhancing who you are not a personality transplant.
> 
> But what do I know I'm just a girl, I don't even know how I got here !


Exactly. If you are an introvert by nature, pretending to be an extrovert comes off as phoney and just silly.


----------



## Sabariel (Jun 14, 2011)

RNS said:


> I am also by nature a introverted geeky/Nerdy guy. The self help books, and my IC seem to think I need to be more out going and such but as I said....that really is not me.


My husband is an introvert. That's a personality trait that you just can't change, and why would you want to? It takes all types. Introverts are precious and have a very special place in society. To that end, I suggest reading the book "Quiet: The Power of Introverts" by Susan Cain.

My husband was also a complete horndog in his teens and 20's. He wanted to get laid a lot, so he learned the skills to "fake it" and get laid. It worked incredibly well, he never went home alone, even though he's not what GQ would consider attractive. BUT that was just sex. It was never fulfilling or rewarding. He would meet women that way, maybe date them for a while, and then walk away when things started getting emotional.

So... you can learn and use those skills, and be very successful at it, but it's not going to help you find a better, intimate, sustainable relationship.

You'll only be happy with someone who knows how you really are, accepts you for you.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

The only two things that are for sure is death and taxes. Go get that 20 year old! dahhh. !


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

Be Popeye the sailorman. So simple....I am want I am and that's all that I am, I'm Popeye the sailorman. If you say you can't you won't. If you say you can you will. It's all in your head.


----------



## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

What Machiavellian is talking about is the initial attraction a female has for a man. It is based on the limbic system of a female. Females are attracted to the Golden ratio build of a man- for the body. Then a symmetrical face and strong sharp features- i.e. high check bones, defined jaw line, symmetrical features, good smile, straight teeth. Women also find men that are above six feet tall to about 6 feet 3/4ish very attractive. This is science at it is proven. When I modeled the minimum requirement for height was six feet one. Then at least a 42 (not that big) inch chest at the biggest waist you could have was 34, but you couldn't be a 42, 34 guy. You'd probably have to be a 42, 30ish maybe less-really skinny lol. . I think the Golden ratio exactly is 46 to 32 to hit the V shape. Then all the facial symmetrical features. That's just science and it makes a male attractive instantly to ANY and ALL females. It just does. 

Now of course for long term relationship success you need a personality, a good job, and father and mate skills, i.e. responsible, kind, generous, good leader stuff like that. 

But even then..... You might get owned and cheated on. 

It's a roll of the dice. 

An OP, please chat up the 20 something. She actually told you that she found you attractive. I mean bro, c'mon have you been out of the game that long?!?! 

Take her out and bang the crap out of her. 

Who knows, she might be one of the good ones- Good looking, sexy, good in bed, smart, funny and most importantly. LOYAL. 

Go for it.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Stronger-now said:


> No sh*t.
> 
> Well, thank you for clarifying your view on this matter. We obviously have different opinions of what "confidence" is. I think it comes from within, not from external validation from opposite sex. My confidence comes from excelling at what I do. I don't need attention from opposite sex to feel good about myself. *shrug* oh well...good luck with your endeavour on being an adonis.


Thanks for the good wishes, but I already lived it and it was great.


----------



## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

lulz, Machiavelli. Lulz.


----------



## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Some strange ideas floating around here. When I was working in Prisons, we had lots of fellas on steroids who were very dangerous and unpredictable, many of whom had ended up there for things like snapping their girlfriends neck. These would be 'Alphas', correct? Then we had fairly big blokes who weren't stedheads, but who were there for twisting someone's bollock off to persuade them to pay a drug debt, or gunning people down outside a pub. I also worked alongside beanpoles who had for example, tortured people for days on end and set them on fire in their houses when they'd had enough. But all these people would trip over themselves to be nice to 'George'.

George was about 5 foot tall, a wee soft spoken pensioner, with a really pleasant manner and a kind word for everybody. But he was clearly the most dangerous person there.

I'm trying to get my head around where these guys would fit into the Greek alphabet scheme. 

Strongernow has a point when he doubts that masculinity is best measured by women, because any of these chaps could make mincemeat of a self-styled Alpha, muscles or not, including the beanpoles. These are guys who would rape other men just to get their lunch money. Are they more manly or less manly than the Adonis... 

Is there another letter bracket I can place all these vicious people into?


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Sandfly said:


> Some strange ideas floating around here. When I was working in Prisons, we had lots of fellas on steroids who were very dangerous and unpredictable, many of whom had ended up there for things like snapping their girlfriends neck. These would be 'Alphas', correct? Then we had fairly big blokes who weren't stedheads, but who were there for twisting someone's bollock off to persuade them to pay a drug debt, or gunning people down outside a pub. I also worked alongside beanpoles who had for example, tortured people for days on end and set them on fire in their houses when they'd had enough. But all these people would trip over themselves to be nice to 'George'.
> 
> George was about 5 foot tall, a wee soft spoken pensioner, with a really pleasant manner and a kind word for everybody. But he was clearly the most dangerous person there.
> 
> ...


These folks are psychopaths and sociopaths. The former would certainly fall within the "alpha" camp. Some have claimed that psychopaths and heros come from the same branch.

Not saying heros are psychopaths but they have some similar characteristics, fearless, etc. and of course there are differences.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Sandfly said:


> Some strange ideas floating around here. When I was working in Prisons, we had lots of fellas on steroids who were very dangerous and unpredictable, many of whom had ended up there for things like snapping their girlfriends neck. These would be 'Alphas', correct? Then we had fairly big blokes who weren't stedheads, but who were there for twisting someone's bollock off to persuade them to pay a drug debt, or gunning people down outside a pub. I also worked alongside beanpoles who had for example, tortured people for days on end and set them on fire in their houses when they'd had enough. But all these people would trip over themselves to be nice to 'George'.
> 
> George was about 5 foot tall, a wee soft spoken pensioner, with a really pleasant manner and a kind word for everybody. But he was clearly the most dangerous person there.
> 
> I'm trying to get my head around where these guys would fit into the Greek alphabet scheme.


In the natural world, you would call these men you describe "Gibbet Bait," since normal humans have no interest in allowing them to continue to steal oxygen. The exceptions to that would be if one had a high degree of charisma to mask the traits you describe, in which case they would be known as "Your Royal Majesty."

If you read the link I provided earlier, you might agree with "Lambda", at least while they are incarcerated.



Sandfly said:


> Strongernow has a point when he doubts that masculinity is best measured by women, because any of these chaps could make mincemeat of a self-styled Alpha, muscles or not, including the beanpoles. These are guys who would rape other men just to get their lunch money. Are they more manly or less manly than the Adonis...


Who said anything about manliness? We're talking about sexual hierarchy, which is to say "who gets laid for free" and why? Women make that decision. Frank Sinatra was a 95# wimp, but he got laid every day. Why do you think that was?



Sandfly said:


> Is there another letter bracket I can place all these vicious people into?


Some smart guy once decided that he would call the head male of a troop of chimpanzees, The Alpha Chimp. The Alpha runs the troop and also mates with and has the support of all the females of the troop.No Chimp gets to choose to call himself the "alpha," unless they have attained the throne by beating all comers. 

Similarly, another smart guy noticed that about 80% of the women were attracted to only the upper 20% of the human males and in fact had their strongest attraction to the top 5%. He also noticed that most of members of this high scoring group were also in some kind of social leadership position. He decided to call these top tier dudes that were hogging all the women, The Alpha Males. Notice, the determinate of alpha is he who gets the women.

Then science set out to figure out what were the internal and external elements of these "Alphas" individuals that were attracting the females. They discovered that women were attracted to the following:

Dark Triad Traits: Psychopathy, Narcissism, Machiavellianism. 
Golden Ratio Physique
Symmetrical Face
Acclaim of other males / high social status / Power
Capability of Provide AKA $$$$$

The more of the above you've got, the closer to the alpha ideal you will be, and the more women you will nail.










Now, as you may know, many women have a high level of sexual attraction to killers. Some may be Alphas, some may be Sigmas. However, I'd say the jail population has a high ratio of Lambdas.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Sandfly said:


> Some strange ideas floating around here. When I was working in Prisons, we had lots of fellas on steroids who were very dangerous and unpredictable, many of whom had ended up there for things like snapping their girlfriends neck. These would be 'Alphas', correct?


If they ended up in prison I'd say compared to other individuals in society they are anything but alpha.

They have made decisions and engaged in actions that took them completely out of competition.

Alphas tend to succeed (that's why they're Alphas) prison is the ultimate opposite of success in our culture.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

tacoma said:


> If they ended up in prison I'd say compared to other individuals in society they are anything but alpha.
> 
> They have made decisions and engaged in actions that took them completely out of competition.
> 
> Alphas tend to succeed (that's why they're Alphas) prison is the ultimate opposite of success in our culture.


I don't know this is true. For the one's that are violent crimes maybe, but there are several Minimum security federal prisons where the white collar criminal is there because he was Alpha and "Knew" he was above the law and everyone else. Madoff and others like him that saw what they wanted and took it at all costs, without concern or care for others.


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

Sorry for the long pause. I have been pulled in many different directions recently...mostly work related.

I thank you all for their insight. It is a great help to get as many perspectives as possible.


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

I am sort of in a random, wondering mood. I just need January to get here ASAP.


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh.. as to the 20 (like 21 or 22) something girl...she is a relation of my current boss...that would not go well.  Also silly me.... I have always had this thing where I want to be emotionally connected with the/any woman in question, and as I have nothing in common with someone of that age group....ehh. I see people her age as kids... wish the stbxw thought like me. 

I am trying to approach my life in a purely academic sense at this time. Trying to face my flaws, see what I really am, what I did wrong in my relationship and trying to grow as a person...and a male. I simply do not want to repeat years down the road. 

As for being all muscly, that is out even if I wanted to, (which I do not) as I have physical limitations, but I have my body mass down to 22 and am still going to the gym three to four times a week. I am approaching good shape, just never going to be in great shape. It is more for peace of mind that to improve my body though. It really has helped me. I am not able to enjoy reading like i use to, as it causes my mind to wander to my stbxw way too much. 

I started to learn the guitar and the violin, and doing a lot of charity work in my spare time. Not that there is a huge amount. Also I have been helping my son with his start-up business...

So my time is occupied, I am just not socially graceful...never will be. I am not a aggressive sort of guy, quietly spoken and such. 

On a side note, I have always known that me and my wife were very different, I thought that was a good thing...is it truly not?

Oh, I take nothing said to me as offensive, so please note that nothing I am saying is intended as such.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would assume you're better off finding someone who holds similar interests and traits.


----------



## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

RNS said:


> Oh.. as to the 20 (like 21 or 22) something girl...she is a relation of my current boss...that would not go well.  Also silly me.... I have always had this thing where I want to be emotionally connected with the/any woman in question, and as I have nothing in common with someone of that age group....ehh. I see people her age as kids... wish the stbxw thought like me.
> 
> I am trying to approach my life in a purely academic sense at this time. Trying to face my flaws, see what I really am, what I did wrong in my relationship and trying to grow as a person...and a male. I simply do not want to repeat years down the road.
> 
> ...


Since saying what I want to say would likely get me banned, let me just say that Machiavelli's repetitive posts about working out and sex ranking more often then not make me  . 

Just continue to be yourself RNS. A woman of substance will find you and be lucky to have you. :smthumbup:


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

@ Machiavelli - I would have agreed with you assessment of Machiavelli's posts, however I will concede that he nailed my wife/living situation very quickly. A little unnerving really  

So I will be myself, but I am willing to learn a little as well


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

RNS said:


> @ Machiavelli - I would have agreed with you assessment of Machiavelli's posts, however I will concede that he nailed my wife/living situation very quickly. A little unnerving really
> 
> So I will be myself, but I am willing to learn a little as well


The horoscope in the paper today nailed my life pretty accurately too. The last thing the world needs is yet another ALPHA MMSLP clone.


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

No worries there....I assure you. lol  I do not have it in me.


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

As my perception of the meaning of life (at least for me) has been turned upside down.... I am just trying to be accepting all available truths as I adjust to this new world.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I keep telling my DD23, who loves herself but is shy and not outgoing, that if she wants to meet a guy, she will have to take that first scary step and sign up for a dance class alone, or start attending things on her own, or join a hiking club, or whatever....and then meet the people there. I tell her that THEY are all going there alone, too, just like when you go to a college course. You may have a moment of uncomfortableness walking in the room the first day, but after that, you are part of the group and will soon be making friends and maybe meeting a guy who shares the same interests (hiking, science, psychology) that she does.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Alpha attracts. Beta holds her heart. A healthy mix is best.

There is nothing wrong with giving your baby a bottle at 4AM. There is something wrong when you are the only one doing it. 

One of my best memories and will always remember it was my daughter. Gave her the 4AM bottle as I am OK after 3AM. One day I give her her bottle when she is about 9 mos old. Gave her the bottle, set her down, she gets up on her elbows, gives me the BIGGEST thank you daddy smile, then lays back down and goes to sleep. This happened twice and I remember and treasure both occasions.


----------



## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

You can start by kicking yourself in the face for not bagging that 20-year old.


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

@ DarkHoly - my son is is 19... too close. OM was 22.... So I guess it matters to some, not others.


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

Oh and bosses' niece.....


----------



## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

RNS said:


> 1st let me say that this forum has been so helpful to me, I can not even express the full magnitude of life saving advice I have received.
> 
> I am at the parting of ways from my wife legally (and soon geographically)...I parted otherwise about a month back. The Divorce is moving quicker that I anticipated, with no contest from her. I am a free agent as of the 16th of next month. So now I am looking hard at who I am and wishing to achieve some sort of growth so I can put this disaster I called a marriage behind me and also so if I do have a relationship again....I will not screw things up again.
> 
> ...


Don't get caught up in the whole Alpha Beta drama. 

The key is don't be a doormat.

Figure out who you are and what makes you a good person in a relationship. Take your time to find someone who appreciates you for who and what you are and then don't EVER accept less.

Think of the "doormat" or "pu$$y whipped" components of your ex-marriage. THOSE are your enemy in a relationship. It's not that your introverted. You can be confident AND introverted. You can be geeky AND sexy to a woman.

Look at Bill Gates....is he a supposed "Alpha". You betcha. But it's because he's 100% confident in who he is and what he does and doesn't take less than what he deserves. THAT is the key. Not this whole generalistic mentality of what makes Alpha vs Beta.

Be the best YOU that you can be. Feel good and confident about that and then project that. You'll be all set.


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

I know I need to be assertive at times, learn to say no once in a while. I am comfortable with those things now. 

I have lost three things from this whole affair: the love I had for my wife, the ability to trust in any deep/meaningful level, and the ability to tolerate others BS. My diplomacy skills are rather shaky also. 

I do see now that I did come off as week to my wife and though my intentions were good, that is not good enough.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

RNS, there's a real easy amazing book that will help you with the saying no stuff, AND the diplomacy. It's really written for women, as they are in most need of learning how to say no, but the advice is still very spot on. Most therapists recommend it. It's called The Dance Of Anger. Actually, all her books are good.

The Dance of Anger


----------



## RNS (Apr 6, 2013)

@ Turnera - I will check it out..Thanks.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

RNS said:


> @ Machiavelli - I would have agreed with you assessment of Machiavelli's posts, however I will concede that he nailed my wife/living situation very quickly. A little unnerving really
> 
> So* I will be myself, but I am willing to learn* a little as well


That puts you way ahead of most folks X 2.

Exercise is essential to your health and well being, not only attraction. It's all one piece. Keep doing your program, no matter what.


----------

