# Marriage is a lot of work.



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

What actual work does a marriage require?

Thinking that if I put more work into it, I might get more out of it. Hasn't worked for the first 25 years of marriage though!


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

For me, the big part of the work is knowing when to shutup. Picking your battles - and paying attntion and learning what is _really_ important to her even if I think something is trivial. Knowing when to cave-in, and when not - is important. I dont have to 'win' all the time... its not about that - its about being a partnership.

and... simply making the time to be together in pleasant ways - to do things together... things that are not simply doing 'the usual'.. cooking, working, chores... whatever. Our lives together NEED to include fun together - otherwise there is a danger that you start looking at it as tedium and routine. You start going out with friends to have your fun - which is NOT a bad thing - but lets not forget the relationship where we spend most of our time too. Building good memories really matters.

..and (there seems to be a lot of 'and's..) constantly reminding yourself that you simply cant take the relationship for granted - that your spouse always deserves to be treated kindly and fairly. That doesnt mean I cant yell at her when needed - but injustice and belittling and dirty fighting take 10 times longer to remedy than thy took in the first place (and probably for something you cant even remember) so its simply a bad idea.

this list would probably get pretty long if I didnt shutup now...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It requires work like:

*Maintaining the boundaries of the marriage

*Fulfilling each other's emotional needs, which requires knowing what they are, which requires communication

*Planning and going on regular dates and vacations

*Remaining attractive and interesting for your spouse

*Understanding and supporting your spouse

*Taking responsibility for your own issues (that affect the marriage) and facing them


Each one of those bullet points takes a lot of work.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

All the above especially not getting upset about small things. Decide what is most important and let the rest go. As an example, at one time, I would get upset if my husband forgot to do something that he promised to do.

When he forgot, I felt he was taking me for granted. However, I thought about it - He is preoccupied with a stressful job that he does well to the advantage of our family. It's not about me. 

It seems to work better if you don't give and give and get little in return. But you can't tally things on a day to day basis. Take the long view. If you are consistently overgiving, scale back and give as much as you get. 

For nice guys, girls and caretakers, that's work. From your other posts, I think you are working too hard. Doing for you wife will not make her appreciate you. Respecting and appreciating what you have to offer will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> ...*Planning and going on regular dates and vacations...


gads. I have 4 weeks vacation coming and seems like I never take any... *sigh*. WTF is wrong with me?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Work 1: Communicating your needs and understanding your spouse's needs.

Work 2: following up on Work 1.

IMO, EVERYTHING falls into these two categories. Finances, sex, emotional availability--everything. If you communicate with each other and make each other understand what you each need, and then DO that, everything else will generally fall into place.

Also, be clear with each other and yourself about stuff that isn't in your own control. Life happens--job losses, illness, stuff like that. Take that into consideration when you're listing your needs with your spouse, and then take ownership of the stuff that is within your ability to control.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Marriage doesn't necessarily require much work at all. If you are truly compatible, it tends to flow pretty naturally and easily (for us, at least, and most of the time). If you *keep up with the routine maintenance* (mutual caring, support, assistance, and communication, etc.), larger issues seldom arise. If you neglect any of these things for long, there may be a breakdown that does require a lot of work and effort to correct.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

In my eyes, my wife does nothing in regards to putting work into our marriage. She cooks and cleans and grocery shops, but I think they are done for her (she wants the house extremely clean) and the kids.

I plan all vacations, date nights, etc. I initiate all intimacy, affection, sex. I earn all the income and do all the financial planning.

My wife's complaint is that I don't communicate with her. And if I did, then she would put in more effort. 

So I try to communicate with her. But she is so unreasonable that it makes it difficult. I think she purposely criticizes and picks fights so that we can't communicate and so she has her excuse as to why she doesn't put any work into our marriage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"She cooks and cleans and grocery shops, but I think they are done for her (she wants the house extremely clean) and the kids."


This is a lot of work, IMO.

You really don't think she does any part of this for "you", even though you live there too and they are your kids?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"So I try to communicate with her. But she is so unreasonable that it makes it difficult."


Whenever someone says this, it usually turns out that both spouses have a communication problem...it is really never just one spouse with the problem when it comes to communication.

Do you have any idea what your contribution to the communication problems might be?

My marriage also has communication problems, and it is tough to get through these problems when one spouse sees the other as "the whole problem". It can't really be fixed with that attitude.

Do you want to fix it, or do you want to be right?


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

'''''''''I plan all vacations, date nights, etc. I initiate all intimacy, affection, sex. I earn all the income and do all the financial planning.

My wife's complaint is that I don't communicate with her. And if I did, then she would put in more effort. '''''''

I would think that is the problem. You dont give her a chance to do any of those things.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> "She cooks and cleans and grocery shops, but I think they are done for her (she wants the house extremely clean) and the kids."
> 
> 
> This is a lot of work, IMO.
> ...


Yes, they are in part for me. If the house was a disaster, I wouldn't like it. But I don't care that it is as clean as it is. I like that meals are ready when I get home. 

But these things don't make me feel loved. They aren't what I would consider my 'love language'. I have offered to pay for a maid. We could easily afford to have someone else cook and clean and grocery shop.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"They aren't what I would consider my 'love language'."

I get ya, and I understand. But still...if you completely disregard that this is "work", then you are disregarding her efforts and that is disrespectful. 

I have a similar problem with my H as he is a big acts of service guy. But I have to view those acts of service he does for me as the acts of love they really are, if I want to acknowledge the "truth" behind the situation.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> "So I try to communicate with her. But she is so unreasonable that it makes it difficult."
> 
> 
> Whenever someone says this, it usually turns out that both spouses have a communication problem...it is really never just one spouse with the problem when it comes to communication.
> ...


I want to fix it. I will give you an example:

On Friday, I came home for lunch. I was in a good mood. Wanted to talk to the wife about maybe going to a movie that evening.

I start making myself some scrambled eggs. (She wants me to eat healthy and thinks I should eat more eggs.) So I cut up an onion and some peppers and start them frying. Then mix up three eggs in a bowl. Dump the eggs into the pan so they can cook. All the time, being cheery and talking about my day and asking about the evening.

After dumping the eggs into the pan, I run some hot water to clean the bowl I used. She sees me cleaning the bowl and goes ballistic. 

Her - "Why are you cleaning that bowl?" 
Me - "So I can use it for the eggs so I don't dirty another one."
Her - "Don't you realize how dangerous that is? Are you stupid? It had raw eggs in it. You do this all the time. Funny the entire family isn't sick. I can't believe how irresponsible you are. " with very condescending tone.
Me - "But I cleaned the bowl".
Her - "I didn't see you use any soap." followed by more cut downs as to how stupid I am.
Me - "All kinds of foods have raw eggs in them. I don't see why you are getting so upset."
Her - She continues to berate me for what I did. She is livid.
Me - "What about all the times you have made cookies, put a few eggs in the dough and then offer it to the kids raw?"
Her - Leaves the room. Hasn't spoken to me since (I haven't either). 

She creates these arguments all the time. Over something very small. If I ever prove to her that she is being unfair, she gets even madder. Never an apology.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

I have found that the two of us simply operate differently - often. She can 'waste her time' doing things that seem just crazy to me.. I assure you they are not to her. At the end of the day however, we seem to accomplish wht needs to get done - even though she may have gone about it very differently than I would have. 

_*In my eyes, my wife does nothing in regards to putting work into our marriage.*_

I would think long and hard about this. If you cant see any value in her..that is not good.

_*So I try to communicate with her. But she is so unreasonable that it makes it difficult. I think she purposely criticizes and picks fights so that we can't communicate and so she has her excuse as to why she doesn't put any work into our marriage.*_

Is she unreasonable or do you just find it difficult to see things from her perspective? I assure you - she does not feel like she is being unreasonable and that you are the problem.. right? I am NOT saying you are the problem here. 

I believe that by the time you have persuaded yourself that the other person is intentionally torpedoing the relationship - you have almost lost the ability to put yourself in her shoes. Maybe she IS totally unreasonable and inexplicable - I have no clue. Neither of you is totally crazy, right?

_*I plan all vacations, date nights, etc.*_

You dont like doing this, is that right? Have you asked her if she wants to, for example, plan out your next destination?

_*I earn all the income and do all the financial planning.*_
You feel this is a burden, or is it that you want some acknowledgement?

_*I initiate all intimacy, affection, sex. *_
sex aint going to be really right until you straighten all this out.

_*My wife's complaint is that I don't communicate with her.*_
Does this overlap with vacations and financial planning and everything else you say you do without her help? Seems like you 2are simply operating on different wavelenghts here!

'unreasonable', and then you do your own thing, or vice-versa. she puts in 'no effort' and you put in 'no communication'.

Yuck. You 2 should just go somewhere and prove to each other that you can actually get along maybe for a couple days. Gotta start somewhere? Problem is - there is so much resentment that the tinniest little concession at this point is probably a head-exploding event. Are you able to get past that? If all either of you do is throw your hands up and say 'Same old crap!' then all is lost. Which of the 2 of you has the courage, the fortitude, the desire, the force of will to try and get over the hump?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sam said: "She creates these arguments all the time. Over something very small. If I ever prove to her that she is being unfair, she gets even madder. Never an apology."

Yes, I see this was a really bad convo. I am sure you hate this type of thing.

The part that is on your side of the paper though is in continuing to engage with her if she is going to be insulting and disrespectful. You have "taught" her that this is ok.

But it definitely is NOT ok, right?

This type of contempt in marriage is a precursor to divorce. So it isn't ok at all....but you still are half the equation.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

accept1 said:


> '''''''''I plan all vacations, date nights, etc. I initiate all intimacy, affection, sex. I earn all the income and do all the financial planning.
> 
> My wife's complaint is that I don't communicate with her. And if I did, then she would put in more effort. '''''''
> 
> I would think that is the problem. You dont give her a chance to do any of those things.


How do you figure I don't give her a chance? How do I take away her chance to do these things? I have never said, don't plan any date nights. We have a date night maybe once every two or three months, she has plenty of time in between to try to arrange something.

She has gone to a couple of meetings with our financial planner, but hates going and refuses to attend now. Never wants to look at any financial reports when we get them, even when I have tried to show them to her.

How do I stop her from being affectionate? I have never pushed her away when she tried to give me a hug or hold my hand. Hardly ever happened, but when she does, I make sure she knows I like it. She is always pushing me away. If I come home and go to give her a hug, she pushes me away saying she is busy (can't take 5 seconds to hug).


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> "They aren't what I would consider my 'love language'."
> 
> I get ya, and I understand. But still...if you completely disregard that this is "work", then you are disregarding her efforts and that is disrespectful.
> 
> I have a similar problem with my H as he is a big acts of service guy. But I have to view those acts of service he does for me as the acts of love they really are, if I want to acknowledge the "truth" behind the situation.


Yes, I know. I compliment her on her cooking. On how clean the house is. I know those things are important to her. When we are getting along, I help her with these things.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

egg-incident -so - you are an angel and she is psychotic?

OK, I'll run with that.

You need to tell her that if she feels the need to call you stupid then she can pack her bags and leave - that you are not going to stand for that because of an egg - nor any other time. Period - and that if she has anything else she needs to talk about - that maybe she just get it out in the open now so that you can air it all out.

I wonder how she would describe the same egg-incident.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> I have found that the two of us simply operate differently - often. She can 'waste her time' doing things that seem just crazy to me.. I assure you they are not to her. At the end of the day however, we seem to accomplish wht needs to get done - even though she may have gone about it very differently than I would have.
> 
> _*In my eyes, my wife does nothing in regards to putting work into our marriage.*_
> 
> ...


I hope my other responses have answered most of your questions/comments.

I like planning holidays, but I would like input from her. I show her resorts and ask her opinion. Show her websites that she can look too. She just puts no effort in.

Same with finances. I don't really like doing it, but it needs to be done. Would like some input from her.

The strange thing is that when we have our holidays (week in Mexico or Hawaii or something) we get along great. The other day, I pretty much forced her to spend the morning with me at the mall (while our car was being fixed). We had a great time shopping and looking around. When we have sex, she seems to really enjoy it. We can talk and cuddle for hours afterwards.

But she never initiates any of these things. And when I do, she often complains and doesn't want to do anything. It makes no sense. Part of her complaint is that I am only doing it to have sex. Which is partially true, but we only are having sex once a month or so after me being rejected multiple times.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

That approach doesn't move back toward a loving relationship though, anotherguy. It just adds more contempt to the mix.

Though in essence, I agree. It just doesn't need to be worded in a tit-for-tat hateful way. It can be said in a way that conveys respect for yourself and your spouse.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> How do you figure I don't give her a chance? How do I take away her chance to do these things? I have never said, don't plan any date nights. We have a date night maybe once every two or three months, she has plenty of time in between to try to arrange something.
> 
> She has gone to a couple of meetings with our financial planner, but hates going and refuses to attend now. Never wants to look at any financial reports when we get them, even when I have tried to show them to her.
> 
> How do I stop her from being affectionate? I have never pushed her away when she tried to give me a hug or hold my hand. Hardly ever happened, but when she does, I make sure she knows I like it. She is always pushing me away. If I come home and go to give her a hug, she pushes me away saying she is busy (can't take 5 seconds to hug).


I suppose you have been to counselling what did they say.
You wrote that you were in the kitchen cooking. Maybe that is your wife's territory and whatever you do there will be wrong.

Why must your wife go to a financial planner. And why must you have one. I dont. I wonder how many other people on here need one. You seem to be ordering her about a bit too much.

I wonder if she would arrange it it would be to your taste. 
Do you ever compliment her on any thing she does. Do you ever call her lazy. Does she think she is lazy in your eyes. 

Exactly how does she think she is in your eyes.

I am sorry for being blunt. Read my other posts I always am. But being nice about it wont get results.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam said: "She creates these arguments all the time. Over something very small. If I ever prove to her that she is being unfair, she gets even madder. Never an apology."
> 
> Yes, I see this was a really bad convo. I am sure you hate this type of thing.
> 
> ...


How am I showing her it is OK? What am I supposed to do?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

accept1 said:


> I suppose you have been to counselling what did they say.


I have asked her in the past to go to counselling. I actually went once by myself. She says I need counselling.



> You wrote that you were in the kitchen cooking. Maybe that is your wife's territory and whatever you do there will be wrong.


Pretty much true. That is why I typically don't go home for lunch.



> Why must your wife go to a financial planner. And why must you have one. I dont. I wonder how many other people on here need one. You seem to be ordering her about a bit too much.


She doesn't disagree with having a financial planner. She just doesn't have any input. This doesn't really cause us any conflict. Just something I mentioned that I do for us and our future.

Where did you get I was 'ordering her about'?



> I wonder if she would arrange it it would be to your taste.
> Do you ever compliment her on any thing she does. Do you ever call her lazy. Does she think she is lazy in your eyes.


No. She tells me I am lazy. That working in an office is easy. That I lay around too much and need to exercise more. 



> Exactly how does she think she is in your eyes.


I think she sees me as being inadequate around the house and the kids. That all I care about is having sex.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, if you have always just taken this type of thing, it will have to start with something like "dear, I am going to ask you to speak respectfully to me, no name calling, no insults".

Then keep steering her back toward a calm manner as the convo goes on.

I know it sounds easier said than done, but consistency is the key. If she won't stop in a particular convo, at some point you'd have to end the convo with "I am sorry we will have to finish this later when you can be calm and respectful."

The key here is the you will have to be calm and respectful while you are doing it, no matter WHAT she does.

Have you read this book:

The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work: A Practical Guide from the Country's Foremost Relationship Expert: John M. Gottman, Nan Silver: 9780609805794: Amazon.com: Books


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

''''''Quote:
Exactly how does she think she is in your eyes.
I think she sees me as being inadequate around the house and the kids. That all I care about is having sex.'''''

You didnt answer my question or perhaps you never understood it.
I asked how does she think SHE is in your eyes. 
Not YOU in her eyes.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

'''''
Originally Posted by accept1 View Post
I suppose you have been to counselling what did they say.
I have asked her in the past to go to counselling. I actually went once by myself. She says I need counselling.''''''

You havent told us what they said the time you once went.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> That approach doesn't move back toward a loving relationship though, anotherguy. It just adds more contempt to the mix.
> 
> Though in essence, I agree. It just doesn't need to be worded in a tit-for-tat hateful way. It can be said in a way that conveys respect for yourself and your spouse.


I agree completely. I dont mean for it to be mean spirited.

If this is an ongoing, condescending, demeaning conflict - and it sounds like it is - I would find a way to get it out in the open and look at it like adults. Name calling? If what he says is accurate - there IS no 'tit-for-tat' since he did nothing to provoke it. It is simply 'tit'. If his response to this is to shut down her down via argument and her response is to leave and shut down as well - the least we can do is try to head this crap off where it starts?

If fighting is what happens - all the time - then lets lay the groundwork for fair fighting and talking about what is really bothering us. I suspect it isnt raw eggs.

She is complaning about the egg becaise of pent up demand to air her grievences...and swooping in for the kill when she sees an opening... and he is calling the argument with blinders on just as he sees it and she appears totally inexplicable. How many times have couples argued about an egg when it had nothing whatsoever to do with what is going on?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I want to fix it. I will give you an example:
> 
> On Friday, I came home for lunch. I was in a good mood. Wanted to talk to the wife about maybe going to a movie that evening.
> 
> ...


Your wife has contempt for you. When do you think this happened? I would never call my husband stupid. I'm getting angry just reading that your wife talks to you like that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

anotherguy....I just didn't agree with what you proposed by saying this: "You need to tell her that if she feels the need to call you stupid then she can pack her bags and leave."

To me, this should never ever be said unless you really are ready to leave, never as just a thing you say in this type of conversation, even if they are being a jerk. Once you start this type of statement you can't take it back.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

This woman is enjoying her lifestyle (from what I can see it sounds pretty good) and yet...

She's name-calling. Raising her voice over some eggs. I really don't get that.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Her - "Why are you cleaning that bowl?"
> Me - "So I can use it for the eggs so I don't dirty another one."
> Her - "Don't you realize how dangerous that is? Are you stupid? It had raw eggs in it. You do this all the time. Funny the entire family isn't sick. I can't believe how irresponsible you are. " with very condescending tone.
> Me - "But I cleaned the bowl".
> ...


What do you think the root cause of this exchange was? Is her education in an area that would give her authority here? It certainly doesn't appear so to me. 

The value of ordinary dish soap lies not in its very minimal disinfectant qualities, but in the fact that it's an emulsifier. What this means is that it augments the rinsing process by lifting and suspending foreign particles. Soap is better than no soap, but if you thoroughly rinsed a metal, plastic, or glazed ceramic bowl in hot water anyway, it's honestly not that much better and certainly not better enough to warrant an outburst. (Unless you just happen to be using a laboratory grade germicide...)

It seems to me that there's more going on here:

A. There's a boundary issue going on. She doesn't want you in the kitchen for whatever reason 

B. There's a respect issue going on. She feels compelled to criticize for whatever reason.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Yes, I know. I compliment her on her cooking. On how clean the house is. I know those things are important to her. When we are getting along, I help her with these things.


Sorry to interrupt. You are getting good advice. Read it. Think about it objectively and apply what is appropriate to you.

One thing I wanted to add that I saw:

Housework is not only her job. If it and most importantly, she are important to you, you will help her at least a little, no matter how you feel. Remember, it's your home, too. You would have to do it if you were alone. 

I bet she feels unattractive because you are complimenting he work and not her physical appearance, sexiness, etc. If you are showing your desire for her, I missed it. I'm sorry if I am out of line. I don't mean to be. I don't know what your sex life is like or how compatible you are with her in that area. Just noticed this and wanted to draw your attention to it in case you missed it. Take care.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> B. *There's a respect issue going on. She feels compelled to criticize for whatever reason.*


OP,therein^^^lies your problem.

I doesn't matter what the root of the anger , resentment or problem is in a marriage.
The general rule of thumb is RESPECT.
NEVER call each other derogatory names and intentionally put down each other.

The next time she speaks to you like that, you need to address it properly. It's disrespectful, and there seems to be an unhealthy dynamic in your marriage. That too, needs to be addressed , but in order to successfully do that you must not allow yourself to be part of the drama, ie: victim , perpetrator or enabler/ rescuer.

First, work on yourself .


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Sorry to interrupt. You are getting good advice. Read it. Think about it objectively and apply what is appropriate to you.
> 
> One thing I wanted to add that I saw:
> 
> ...


My wife is beautiful. I tell her all the time. She spends an hour or more a day exercising and another hour or so on makeup and her hair. 

You are correct that I should help her with the house all the time. At times, I start to help and then hear how I am doing it all wrong. 

One of my peaves is that she spends her day exercising, shopping for things, having coffee with friends, etc. I spend my day running the business (and the odd golf game ). She spends the evening with cleaning and laundry while I am taking a couple of hours to wind down. She calls me lazy for laying around while she is 'working'. In the past, I have gotten angry and said things like, "Well what did you do all day?" which I know is wrong. I have never said it to criticize her, only to defend myself.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> My wife is beautiful. I tell her all the time. She spends an hour or more a day exercising and another hour or so on makeup and her hair.
> 
> You are correct that I should help her with the house all the time. At times, I start to help and then hear how I am doing it all wrong.
> 
> One of my peaves is that she spends her day exercising, shopping for things, having coffee with friends, etc. I spend my day running the business (and the odd golf game ). She spends the evening with cleaning and laundry while I am taking a couple of hours to wind down. She calls me lazy for laying around while she is 'working'. In the past, I have gotten angry and said things like, "Well what did you do all day?" which I know is wrong. I have never said it to criticize her, only to defend myself.


She seems a bit entitled and feels that you can do as you like so she will as well. At least, that's how I read this. Sorry about that. Maybe you can take care of things that need done without doing the things she normally does. Make dates with her and keep them. Take her out to some place for a surprise now and again and last, but not least, talk with her. Sounds like she thinks you are the entitled one.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> She seems a bit entitled and feels that you can do as you like so she will as well. At least, that's how I read this. Sorry about that. Maybe you can take care of things that need done without doing the things she normally does. Make dates with her and keep them. Take her out to some place for a surprise now and again and last, but not least, talk with her. Sounds like she thinks you are the entitled one.


Not sure I get the entitled part of your post. The "I do as I like, so she will as well stuff". Where is the "I do as I like" coming from?

Anyhow the rest of your post is exactly what I have been trying to do. I do try to make dates, even though she often turns me down. I do plan a week in Mexico or Hawaii once a year or so. And I do try to talk to her, even though often she causes an argument over what I said or how I said it or when I said it.

My post is that marriage is a bunch of work. I try to do these things to try to make my wife happy. But I feel like I am the one doing the 'bunch of work'. That my wife isn't doing anything for our marriage and only criticizes me when I try to.

I have posted in the past in regards to intimacy. She will reject me. I will have to keep approaching her. If I hug her in bed, she will turn away from me. I have to keep hugging her. Sometimes she gets angry that I won't leave her alone. But after a few minutes of me holding her, she will start to loosen up. She will eventually put her hand on mine. Eventually we make love. I always make sure that she has an orgasm (typically through oral sex or maybe the use of a vibrator). Sometimes with her on top of me. We hold each other afterwards and she thanks me for being patient with her and for understanding her so well.

We have an argument and it will go on forever. We haven't spoken since the argument about the eggs 5 days ago. She will never (and I mean never) come to me and apologize. She will never reach out to me. I have kept my distance for as long as 6 weeks after one of these blow ups. I think she would let it go on forever before giving in.

I know what will happen. After a few more days, I will try to hug her. She will say something like, "So you expect to hug me now after not talking to me for 10 days." I will end up apologizing for the fight (even though I feel it isn't my fault). I will start helping with cleaning up supper. I will start asking her about her day, etc. She will be cold, but will come around. I will do what is needed so that we can start getting along again. After, when things are better, she might say something like, that argument was so stupid, sorry for being so difficult. 

Just once, I want her to do the apologizing. To be the one to reach out and hug me after we have been arguing. For her to be the one to come and sit with me and talk to me. For her to be the one to surprise me with a date night. 

Her mother will say things to me like, "I don't know how you put up with her". "She is so lucky to have you". My wife is exactly like her father was.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> I want to fix it. I will give you an example:
> 
> On Friday, I came home for lunch. I was in a good mood. Wanted to talk to the wife about maybe going to a movie that evening.
> 
> ...


Suppose you don't explain yourself. Why should you answer when your wife's attitude is disrespectful? After all, you are not one of the children. 

Look at her for two seconds like she is crazy and continue calmly doing what you are doing, 

When she ignores you, say be nice but cool. She is controlling you, don't let her. She is baiting you and you fall into the trap too easily. Surprise her and change up. Never react the way she expects. 

How do you handle a two yr old who has temper tantrums? you don't react, that will extinguish the behavior.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Suppose you don't explain yourself. Why should you answer when your wife's attitude is disrespectful? After all, you are not one of the children.
> 
> Look at her for two seconds like she is crazy and continue calmly doing what you are doing,
> 
> ...


After trying to explain myself, that is what I did. I just continued on, made my lunch and went to work. 

But what next. Do I pretend nothing happened? I have done that in the past and it just happens again and again. I have also done like I am doing now. Go dark. If she wants to talk to me, she knows where I am. It will be weeks before she ever approaches me though.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sad,
You don't know how to fight with your wife. And that is a big reason she doesn't respect you. 

Her behavior is hostile and aggressive. And yet, you don't enforce your boundaries so it continues. 

I haven't bugged your house but I do know this much. After she gets hostile and nasty like she did in the kitchen, she adopts either a cool/cold or neutral posture for a while. And then she pretends that nothing happened. 

If you raise the subject of her behavior, she uses the tactics below to emotionally exhaust you. Those are some combination of:
- denial (I didn't do what you are saying) of content, tone of voice or body language. 
- counter aggression: I am mad at you because you are mad at me
- dismissal: I refuse to even discuss this with you 
- blame shifting: it is your fault I got so angry, you were risking all our lives by not using a Grade 4 biological decontamination unit to cleanse the bowl
- non apology: I am sorry that 'upset you'
- uber non apology: Why are you so sensitive, I was only trying to help you? 
- denial with counterattack: I am furious that you are falsely representing what happened, and implying that I am a b!tch

You have not learned how to engage in an energy efficient form of 'low intensity conflict' partly because you cannot maintain your calm when she is literally or figuratively banging pots and pans loudly in the kitchen to let you know how angry she is at you. 





SadSamIAm said:


> My wife is beautiful. I tell her all the time. She spends an hour or more a day exercising and another hour or so on makeup and her hair.
> 
> You are correct that I should help her with the house all the time. At times, I start to help and then hear how I am doing it all wrong.
> 
> One of my peaves is that she spends her day exercising, shopping for things, having coffee with friends, etc. I spend my day running the business (and the odd golf game ). She spends the evening with cleaning and laundry while I am taking a couple of hours to wind down. She calls me lazy for laying around while she is 'working'. In the past, I have gotten angry and said things like, "Well what did you do all day?" which I know is wrong. I have never said it to criticize her, only to defend myself.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Sad,
> You don't know how to fight with your wife. And that is a big reason she doesn't respect you.
> 
> Her behavior is hostile and aggressive. And yet, you don't enforce your boundaries so it continues.
> ...


You are exactly correct. Your guesses as to how she reacts are pretty much all correct. Different times she reacts in different ways. Typically, she pretends that I am over reacting and it wasn't much for me to get upset about.

So how do I engage correctly?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Weeks because she feels totally confident you won't leave over this and you won't disrupt her life by demanding she get a job, or turning off one of her credit cards. And weeks because she doesn't love you enough to make an effort to make amends when she is hateful to you. This is similar to how she handled getting caught having an affair. 


QUOTE=SadSamIAm;4615849]After trying to explain myself, that is what I did. I just continued on, made my lunch and went to work. 

But what next. Do I pretend nothing happened? I have done that in the past and it just happens again and again. I have also done like I am doing now. Go dark. If she wants to talk to me, she knows where I am. It will be weeks before she ever approaches me though.[/QUOTE]


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Weeks because she feels totally confident you won't leave over this and you won't disrupt her life by demanding she get a job, or turning off one of her credit cards. And weeks because she doesn't love you enough to make an effort to make amends when she is hateful to you. This is similar to how she handled getting caught having an affair.


You are correct! But you must have me confused with someone else. She has never had an affair (at least that I am aware of).

I feel like I have no option but to leave. I have tried everything else over the years.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sam,
Ah 'dismissal', Mrs. MEM has a PhD in 'dismissal'. 

What triggers your wife's anxiety? I mean it. I am asking a sincere question here. 

Because it feels like her overly confident posture is partly rooted in your extreme financial generosity. 

So when she snipes at you about being 'lazy' at night, you can smile and respond with: Not lazy, just fatigued from working all day to provide a 5 star lifestyle to an ungrateful wife. Personally I find the lack of gratitude far more fatiguing than than the work itself. 

QUOTE=SadSamIAm;4615945]You are exactly correct. Your guesses as to how she reacts are pretty much all correct. Different times she reacts in different ways. Typically, she pretends that I am over reacting and it wasn't much for me to get upset about.

So how do I engage correctly?[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Forgive me Sam. That was quite a mistake on my part. 




SadSamIAm said:


> You are correct! But you must have me confused with someone else. She has never had an affair (at least that I am aware of).
> 
> I feel like I have no option but to leave. I have tried everything else over the years.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Sam,
> Ah 'dismissal', Mrs. MEM has a PhD in 'dismissal'.
> 
> What triggers your wife's anxiety? I mean it. I am asking a sincere question here.
> ...


I feel what triggers her anxiety is 'intimacy'. She had been asking me to talk to her more and to eat more healthy. We had a couple of really good days where I was doing what she has been asking. 

When the egg situation happened, I think it was because she was feeling pressured to be intimate with me, because I had been meeting her needs.

She created an argument to put space between us.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

The work is pride-swallowing, letting go, grudge-burying, listening, sacrificing, reconsidering your expectations and entitlements, and also just the actual stuff of helping to make the household work, whether it's doing your share of housework or putting in the extra work at a job to help meet financial goals.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sad,
Yes. That is exactly what happens. She was tense/anxious and the fueled the outburst. 

Do you think that your daily compliments about how beautiful she is are contributing to her aggression? 

Because I do. 

Are you in as good a shape as she is? 

And does she really want 'more' intimacy, or does she really want more reassurance from you that the status quo will continue? 

It is pretty toxic for her to ask you for more 'emotional' intimacy when she is well aware that a big part of your distance is caused by her avoidance of physical/sexual intimacy.

BTW: I do not think it is acceptable for her to shop, do lunch, etc. during the day and then do housework at night with the expectation you will 'pitch in'. Her 'workday' is WAY shorter than yours and it is extremely ungrateful for her to play that game with you. 

I love Mrs. MEM and it is also true that she has out me through the: Masters, PhD and Post doc programs for emotional MMA (mixed martial arts). She usually makes up for her bad behavior with sex because it works. But I realize that I brought on some of her very bad behavior over time by spoiling her. 




SadSamIAm said:


> I feel what triggers her anxiety is 'intimacy'. She had been asking me to talk to her more and to eat more healthy. We had a couple of really good days where I was doing what she has been asking.
> 
> When the egg situation happened, I think it was because she was feeling pressured to be intimate with me, because I had been meeting her needs.
> 
> She created an argument to put space between us.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Sad I am curious. Did she date much before you? What type of guys did she date?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Sad,
> Yes. That is exactly what happens. She was tense/anxious and the fueled the outburst.
> 
> Do you think that your daily compliments about how beautiful she is are contributing to her aggression?
> ...


I agree with you. I tell her that she is beautiful because she is and because she is self concious about it. But I do it too often and when I tell her she is beautiful, she is thinking I just want to screw her. I have tried to stop complimenting her.



> Are you in as good a shape as she is?


No. When we met I was the captain of the volleyball team. Was 6' tall, 180 lbs with no fat. She has always been slender, but she didn't start working out until about 10 years ago.

I gained 20 lbs the first six months out of college. I have fluctuated between 200 and 220lbs over the last 20 years. I am now at 207lbs. I have golfed three times a week all summer (walking not riding). I play squash a couple of times a week during the winter. 

I think I am in average or even slightly above average shape for a 50 year old man. She is in excellent shape for a 47 year old woman. I am balding with grey hair. She is ripped.



> And does she really want 'more' intimacy, or does she really want more reassurance from you that the status quo will continue?
> 
> It is pretty toxic for her to ask you for more 'emotional' intimacy when she is well aware that a big part of your distance is caused by her avoidance of physical/sexual intimacy.


I really don't know. I know I could do a better job of sharing things with her. 

Her avoidance of physical /sexual intimacy has always confused me. We had sex all the time the first 5 years of our time together. Then kids slowed us down (like everyone). When we go on holidays together, we have sex a bunch, and we get along great. The anxiety seems to go away and she 'seems' to really want me. When I am able to 'get through her wall', we have a good time having sex, talking, laughing, etc. 



> BTW: I do not think it is acceptable for her to shop, do lunch, etc. during the day and then do housework at night with the expectation you will 'pitch in'. Her 'workday' is WAY shorter than yours and it is extremely ungrateful for her to play that game with you.


She is a SAHM. Our oldest is in Grade 12 with 2 others in University. They could pretty much look after themselves. She still makes them lunches every day. She is always busy. Never sits down at night. One of her reasons for no sex is that she is too tired. 



> I love Mrs. MEM and it is also true that she has out me through the: Masters, PhD and Post doc programs for emotional MMA (mixed martial arts). She usually makes up for her bad behavior with sex because it works. But I realize that I brought on some of her very bad behavior over time by spoiling her.


You are lucky. If my wife wanted me, put in an effort in regards to physical intimacy once or twice a week, I would be happy. As they say, men are simple.


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## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

Hi Sam,

From my point of view, she disrespectful behavior towards you are revenge ... As a result of something you did/are doing that affect her, and not because of what you didnt do/ what's lacking.

You certainly have met her needs but have you
asked her what hurt have you caused her?
What is she mad at about you? 

Have you asked and all the while just listened (the way women do)?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

I see you havent answered my posts. Perhaps you find it too difficult.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Work 1: Communicating your needs and understanding your spouse's needs.
> 
> Work 2: following up on Work 1.
> 
> ...


wakka wakka!

Good post.


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## ManOhMan2013 (Aug 1, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> What actual work does a marriage require?
> 
> Thinking that if I put more work into it, I might get more out of it. Hasn't worked for the first 25 years of marriage though!


Good post. I think marriage requires two honest people who are willing to look how they effect the big picture (marriage), honestly and objectively. Many times, a third person is necessary in order to help move things along.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

_"So I try to communicate with her. But she is so unreasonable that it makes it difficult."


Whenever someone says this, it usually turns out that both spouses have a communication problem...it is really never just one spouse with the problem when it comes to communication._

FaithfulWife has this exactly right. You may think you are communicating, but could be talking right past each other. mars vs. venus. For you communication may be about facts and narrative, while for her it may be about shared feelings etc. Also, your anecdote about the eggs is telling: it's readily apparent that this argument was not really about kitchen safety.

Wrt your original question: I think marriage is about maintaining intimacy, whatever it takes. Many of the specific examples given by posters to this thread really boil down to this. And the communication piece is important here too, because what is needed to maintain intimacy will change over time and you need to be in communication in order to keep in touch with these changes. just my 2 pennies.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> We have an argument and it will go on forever. We haven't spoken since the argument about the eggs 5 days ago. She will never (and I mean never) come to me and apologize. She will never reach out to me. I have kept my distance for as long as 6 weeks after one of these blow ups. I think she would let it go on forever before giving in.
> 
> I know what will happen. After a few more days, I will try to hug her. She will say something like, "So you expect to hug me now after not talking to me for 10 days." I will end up apologizing for the fight (even though I feel it isn't my fault). I will start helping with cleaning up supper. I will start asking her about her day, etc. She will be cold, but will come around. I will do what is needed so that we can start getting along again. After, when things are better, she might say something like, that argument was so stupid, sorry for being so difficult.
> 
> *Just once, I want her to do the apologizing.* To be the one to reach out and hug me after we have been arguing.


It'll never happen as things stand. You know this.

My wife used to be the same. "I'm Sorry" seemed to be the hardest phrase to get out of her. The cycle would be that I apologise and her acceptance would be the best I would get in return. As I was the only one apologising I always felt permanently on the back foot. 

I didn't see it at the time, but I now think of it as a fitness test. And as we all know the only way to pass these tests is to not take them.

Me: Apology
Wife: [Acceptance but no reciprocation]
Me: I accept your apology (Very good-naturedly)

My wife's reaction was incredulity. She hadn't apologised. I knew she hadn't. She knew she should apologise. So, I called her on it.

Wife: [Engage immediate blameshift and other defensive manoeveurs]

The more reasons she gave for not reciprocating, the more outrageous became my praise for her non-apology. I called her "magnanimous", I thanked her "for being the bigger man", I appreciated the fact that "she found saying sorry so hard" and for "meeting me half-way by accepting some blame". When you're caught in a negative cycle, humour sometime works to break out. It isn't a magic bullet. My wife was still a bit resistant, but each time she didn't apologise, I'd call her on it. I didn't want to keep on doing the same old thing with the same results; my new way was more fun. Eventually...

"Come on baby, I know this is difficult for you... I know how traumatic it is for you to say this five-letter word... but we'll get through this together... Let me get you started.. Sssssss..."

If an issue isn't serious, I refuse to be serious to tackle it.

Today "I accept your apology" is code for : Okay, let's both stand down. We're both being silly, so meet me half-way and we'll talk this out.

When our wives lose a bit of respect for us, it's because we're 'losing' a bunch of small battles. We stop calling them out when they're unreasonable. Instead we engage when we shouldn't and a tiny bit of respect is lost.

I have no idea what your exchange about the eggs was really about - all I do know is it wasn't a discussion on the dangers of salmonella poisoning.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I want to fix it. I will give you an example:
> 
> On Friday, I came home for lunch. I was in a good mood. Wanted to talk to the wife about maybe going to a movie that evening.
> 
> ...


Marriage is work.

One thing you can work on is how you can handle this situation better.

Her - "Why are you cleaning that bowl?" 
Me - "Becuase it's Dirty"
Her - "Don't you realize how dangerous that is? Are you stupid? It had raw eggs in it. You do this all the time. Funny the entire family isn't sick. I can't believe how irresponsible you are. " with very condescending tone.
Me - "Stop speaking to me that way"
Her "Blah Blah Blah"
Me - "Could you leave the room so I can enjoy my lunch in peace?"


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Marriage is work.
> 
> One thing you can work on is how you can handle this situation better.
> 
> ...


Dunno, mate. "Stop speaking to me that way" translates as "Continue to speak to me in that way; you're getting to me."

But ultimately that discussion is not about eggs or bowls.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Hicks said:


> Marriage is work.
> 
> One thing you can work on is how you can handle this situation better.
> 
> ...


Or it could go down something like this:



*Her* - "Why are you cleaning that bowl?" 
*Me* - "Becuase it's Dirty"
*Her* - "Don't you realize how dangerous that is? Are you stupid? It had raw eggs in it. You do this all the time. Funny the entire family isn't sick. I can't believe how irresponsible you are. " with very condescending tone.
*Me* - "Stop speaking to me that way"
*Her* "Blah Blah Blah"
*Me* - > In a firm , but controlled tone of voice < _I am not prepared to have any conversation with you under these circumstances which I think is disrespectful. I'm quite sure you won't like me to address you like that either._
*Her* - Oh?
*Me* -_ Yep ! So here's what,whenever you're ready to address me respectfully I am quite willing and happy for this or any other conversation that you want us to have, to continue.
Agree?_<--[ checkmate]
*Her* - * probably shaking her head, or staring in disbelief .*
*Me* -_In the meantime I will continue doing X,Y or Z_ [ ie: cleaning the bowl or whatever she's complaining about.]
*Me* - _Don't forget ,I'm looking forward and really hope that we can work this out soon !_



In the OP's original scenario, he's responding in victim mode , which gives his wife the upper hand. This gives her a feeling of power which she's addicted to. Whenever those type of verbal attacks start, he needs to remove himself from that part of the equation and take control of the conversation.
Lay down the rules of engagement , and refuse to participate in any conversation that would make him a target or victim of her frustration.
It is best not to engage a person who's being disrespectful , on their level. Always take the higher ground.
Ignoring people who use tantrums to get their way negates the effect , and makes it useless.


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## Dallaswife (Aug 29, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> What actual work does a marriage require?
> 
> Thinking that if I put more work into it, I might get more out of it. Hasn't worked for the first 25 years of marriage though!


Well my marriage isn't one of those lovey dovey passionate marriages but we have been together 18 years. My mother always told me that it was better to "like" your husband than to "love" him, because after the passion has faded, it is the liking that will keep you together.

The secret to our marriage is that neither of us has been co-dependent or needy. We have both worked at keeping our individuality and have allowed each other the freedom to pursue our own interests. We have breakfast together every morning and dinner together every evening, unless one of us are travelling. We respect and trust each other and offer each other support and advice when needed. 

From my perspective, I've looked after myself and can still fit into the same size jeans I wore at 18. I cook him a home made meal every evening and take pleasure in creating a welcoming home for him. As soon as I hear his car in the driveway, I have his drink prepared and we will sit and chat about each other's day. I'm not a SAHM, I run a part time business which keeps me involved with other people and gives me something interesting to talk about.

From his perspective, he looks after me well and is hard working. He takes me out to dinner once per week just the two of us. I guess you could say he is my rock.

I think another important factor is not questioning his every movement or snooping. He has female friends who he sometimes meets for lunch. I never question his motives or go through his pockets looking for evidence of something more. I wouldn't go as far as saying I trust him 100%, but I don't want him to have a chain around his ankle and be depressed and miserable. Saying that I have never suspected him of cheating. I also have male friends and its not an issue for him either.

Oh and one last point - we sleep in separate beds except at the weekends and on vacation. We both realised the importance of a good nights sleep!

Yes we both have to work at it, but it's a work that comes naturally for us.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> Marriage doesn't necessarily require much work at all. If you are truly compatible, it tends to flow pretty naturally and easily (for us, at least, and most of the time). If you *keep up with the routine maintenance* (mutual caring, support, assistance, and communication, etc.), larger issues seldom arise. If you neglect any of these things for long, there may be a breakdown that does require a lot of work and effort to correct.


Exactly, the more compatible you are the easier it is and vice versa. Finding that person you are highly compatible with can be the hard part.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Lay down the rules of engagement , and refuse to participate in any conversation that would make him a target or victim of her frustration.
> It is best not to engage a person who's being disrespectful , on their level. Always take the higher ground.
> Ignoring people who use tantrums to get their way negates the effect , and makes it useless.


Absolutely agree with all this, CM. On reflection this is a better tactic is I feel my wife is not being respectful.

Me : If you want me to respond, change your tone. That last one gets 2/10
Wife : [Disrespect]
Me : 0/10. Try again

I've got endless patience for this kind of thing. You have to be mild and never condescending. Generally I'll break the tension by smiling or chuckling when I 'grade' her response. Neither of us want to back down, so laughing about it gives us both an honourable out.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

RClawson said:


> Sad I am curious. Did she date much before you? What type of guys did she date?


She had one boyfriend in high school that wasn't really a boyfriend. She wasn't allowed to have a boyfriend. I think she had two or three other 'hookups' with guys before I met her. Her father was very strict. He was an alcoholic. Made her feel like a **** for wearing tight jeans and makeup. I think much of her issues stem from that.

I met her on her 18th birthday at college. We started dating a couple of months later.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I think discovering the exact moment where the disrespect happened is important. The first time I get called stupid is the last. I can't even fathom getting to a point in my marriage where I would address my husband like that. There isn't ANY scenario or argument we could have where something like that would come out of my mouth.

Sam, she should get left for a few days. I don't know how you have managed to tolerate this for as long as you have. And to continue to 'reward' her after the fact is a sick cycle. She isn't held responsible for her bad behavior toward you. All this focus and time you spend trying to make her happy should be spent making yourself happy. You can't fix that in her. She's miserable and you're her punching bag and it's not right.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> I think discovering the exact moment where the disrespect happened is important.


I think it's more a case of 'Death by a Thousand Cuts'.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

accept1 said:


> ''''''Quote:
> Exactly how does she think she is in your eyes.
> I think she sees me as being inadequate around the house and the kids. That all I care about is having sex.'''''
> 
> ...


This is a tough question. I am not sure I know.

I have told her many times what a great mother she is, what a hard worker she is. She knows how beautiful I think she is and how much I desire her (too much in her eyes).

When we have arguments, she will sometimes tell me that I all care about her for is sex. I will turn it around on her and tell her that I feel like all she wants from me is someone to pay the bills. Because of these conversations she might think that I think of her as someone who is using me.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

accept1 said:


> '''''
> Originally Posted by accept1 View Post
> I suppose you have been to counselling what did they say.
> I have asked her in the past to go to counselling. I actually went once by myself. She says I need counselling.''''''
> ...


Most of the conversation was about me. 

The counsellor didn't want to talk about my wife or our marriage because she wasn't there. We talked about my upbringing and stuff. Gave me some good things to think about.

I have often thought about going back. I am sure that after a few sessions we would have gotten more into my marriage and our relationship.

When I told my wife about the session she used it to show me that she is right, that I need counselling.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> Absolutely agree with all this, CM. On reflection this is a better tactic is I feel my wife is not being respectful.
> 
> Me : If you want me to respond, change your tone. That last one gets 2/10
> Wife : [Disrespect]
> ...


I have done this in the past. Kind of just laughed about it. Tried to make light of it. 

But at the time, it is a very serious issue to her. She is right and I am wrong. Making it into a joke makes her more angry.

I know I handle it incorrectly. If I am going to stay, I need to find a way to stop it before it escalates.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

She doesn't respect you Sam. Does she? I read what MEM had to say. He's good. No doubt about it.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> She doesn't respect you Sam. Does she? I read what MEM had to say. He's good. No doubt about it.


Yes, it is like he has lived my life. He sure seems to understand the dynamic.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I know I handle it incorrectly. If I am going to stay, I need to find a way to stop it before it escalates.


It can't escalate if you don't engage her when she's being disrespectful to you. She's mad, you're mild. 

If she can't moderate your tone, you don't respond. If it's important to her the only way she can get you to play ball is to treat you with respect.

You'll have to repeat the same thing again and again till she get's the message.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Maybe he can recommend a book or two and a specific type of counseling? I know he seems busy as heck.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> It can't escalate if you don't engage her when she's being disrespectful to you. She's mad, you're mild.
> 
> If she can't moderate your tone, you don't respond. If it's important to her the only way she can get you to play ball is to treat you with respect.
> 
> You'll have to repeat the same thing again and again till she get's the message.


This is kind of where I am at. I don't talk to her as much as I should because this disrespect comes fairly regularily. When I try to get close to her she tells me I need to talk to her more. When I talk to her more, she often gets disrespectful.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hey Sam? Are you able to take away the need you have for her to clean and do the things you would like her to do?

Edit: Be right back.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I have often thought that maybe I should do the 180. Work on making myself happy and not giving her the attention. When I read the 180, I see much of it, she has been doing to me for a number of years:

Quote:

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Hey Sam? Are you able to take away the need you have for her to clean


I don't have a need for her to clean. I would like it if she wasn't so OCD about it. I don't mind if a glass is left on the coffee table for an hour or two. 



> and do the things you would like her to do?


All I need from her is to show that she cares once in a while. To tell me she loves me without me having to say it first. For her to reach out an hug me without me having to do it first. Even to just take the time to allow me to hug her. To put an effort into our sex life so that we make love more than once a month (with me having to beg and put up with rejections).


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't have a need for her to clean. I would like it if she wasn't so OCD about it. I don't mind if a glass is left on the coffee table for an hour or two.
> 
> 
> 
> All I need from her is to show that she cares once in a while. To tell me she loves me without me having to say it first. For her to reach out an hug me without me having to do it first. Even to just take the time to allow me to hug her. To put an effort into our sex life so that we make love more than once a month (with me having to beg and put up with rejections).


Takers don't know how to do what you're asking. She sounds like a taker to me in every sense of the word. It's when you stop giving that they start paying attention. Their cup is no longer overflowing. Let her empty out a bit.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> I've got endless patience for this kind of thing. *You have to be mild and never condescending. Generally I'll break the tension by smiling or chuckling when I 'grade' her response. Neither of us want to back down, so laughing about it gives us both an honourable out.*


:iagree: x 100%

Smiling and laughing always does the trick.
It transmits the message that you are in control of your emotions.
As long as you're not being passive aggressive , the other person [ husband or wife ] realizes that , and that sets the groundwork for the conversation takes place on a civil , even amicable level.

The dynamic has changed.
There are no victims feeling hurt, no aggressors feeling attacked and attacking as a form of defence.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

She expects you to behave a certain way. These expectations have shifted the balance in your relationship, and she is firmly entrenched in getting her way/needs met by stonewalling you. You give in. That's how it's been. She knows it. The longer she stonewalls the more anxious you get and she knows that too. You break, you apologize, you reach out, and she decides whether to let go of her anger enough to offer you crumbs. 

If you want to stop this you have to do the opposite of what you've been doing. You can't be afraid of her not noticing the change. It shouldn't matter if she does or does not, you will do what you have to do to preserve yourself and meet your own needs.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm wondering if she thinks you "need" her for some reason and so she feels like she can do no wrong? "You can't live without her." 

What if you started to show her through actions, that you are fine and do not need her? What if you showed her you are secure alone? Maybe you have done that? I do wonder about that 180. I don't particularly like it unless you are prepared for the worst. I think it's a last resort and many people are so deep in their own little world, they just will not pick up what you are trying to get across to them and will fight to hold onto what the know is safe.

I do think that it has it's purpose.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> She expects you to behave a certain way. These expectations have shifted the balance in your relationship, and she is firmly entrenched in getting her way/needs met by stonewalling you. You give in. That's how it's been. She knows it. The longer she stonewalls the more anxious you get and she knows that too. You break, you apologize, you reach out, and she decides whether to let go of her anger enough to offer you crumbs.
> 
> If you want to stop this you have to do the opposite of what you've been doing. You can't be afraid of her not noticing the change. It shouldn't matter if she does or does not, you will do what you have to do to preserve yourself and meet your own needs.


I agree but she is very stubborn. It may take months before she gives in. The marriage might be over by then.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sounds like you are ready to end it. If this is true, why not do the hard 180 after you prepare yourself for the worst? Maybe she will come around, but I doubt it. You will then at least have tried to some extent and just put a fork in it when it's done. Set a timeline to see a certain amount of progress and just follow through with the paperwork as needed? Seems like it's what you really want. I can't imagine such a stubborn spouse when you have provided all that a husband should to be 1/2 of a good marriage.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree but she is very stubborn. It may take months before she gives in. The marriage might be over by then.


It may be. Thing is you have to be willing to lose it. She knows you aren't. You instead take what she gives you.

Letting go is hard. It works against every fiber of our being to release something we hold so dear to us, but that's exactly what you have to do in order to have what you want/need in this marriage.

She's not letting go. It's beneficial to her in every way to hold onto you by the neck like she is. Help her out and start walking in the other direction.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> This is kind of where I am at. I don't talk to her as much as I should because this disrespect comes fairly regularily. When I try to get close to her she tells me I need to talk to her more. When I talk to her more, she often gets disrespectful.


Sounds like a vicious cycle. We were there not so long ago. I know we're 'over the hump' now to better communication. Okay, she doesn't respect you as she perhaps ought and without that you don't want to communicate. 

The problem is men and women communicate in different ways.



SadSamIAm said:


> I don't have a need for her to clean. I would like it if she wasn't so OCD about it. I don't mind if a glass is left on the coffee table for an hour or two.


I'm _exactly_ like you, right down to the OCD comment. I don't feel the house has to look like it's ready for a shoot of Hello! magazine 24/7. I like it 'lived in'. My wife, like yours, doesn't agree.



> All I need from her is to show that she cares once in a while. To tell me she loves me without me having to say it first.


I think you're having a miscommunication here. Your wife is actually saying she cares. You mentioned earlier that you feel your wife looks after the house for 'her', not for you; it's not your love language. But it is hers (I think).

_I flew in from a business trip and get home at 0600.
_
Me : The house looks nice (it was spotless)
Me : Oh, nice [flower] arrangement. (My wife knows I like fresh flowers in the house)
Wife : Are you tired?
Me : NO. (Significant look)
Wife : Our son won't be up for another hour...

So, what the h*ll was all that about? My wife actually told me much later: "I don't want my husband to walk into a messy house (as if that's likely). I think that's part of being a good wife". Acts of Service isn't my Love Language, it's hers. By appreciating all the effort she's put in, for me, I acknowledged that she cares for me. She's telling me she loves me, but if I don't notice we'd still be having endless 'discussions' about me doing more around the house.

Communication and miscommunication. The possibilities are endless if you're speaking different languages. Does that make any sense, SadSamIAm? 

(This happened before I knew anything about Love Languages. Lucky I didn't roll in with my primary LL - Physical Touch. Different outcome I believe  )


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> When we go on holidays together, we have sex a bunch, and we get along great. The anxiety seems to go away and she 'seems' to really want me. When I am able to 'get through her wall', we have a good time having sex, talking, laughing, etc.


I freely admit I'm a relentless optimist. The above tells me your marital problems centre around the home and domesticity. Your problems disappear when you're out of that environment and it's just the two of you.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> Sounds like a vicious cycle. We were there not so long ago. I know we're 'over the hump' now to better communication. Okay, she doesn't respect you as she perhaps ought and without that you don't want to communicate.
> 
> The problem is men and women communicate in different ways.
> 
> ...


This makes sense and I realize how important it is to her. And I do compliment her on how great the house looks. Sometimes I don't notice things, but when I do, I try to mention it. Every once in a while I will notice some new vase or picture or soap dispenser or something and tell her it looks good. Often I get a negative comment back about how it has been there a couple of weeks.

The point of this thread is that I feel like I do try to meet her needs. She puts up roadblocks. She 'never' tries to meet my needs and so I get pissed and it makes it tougher to keep trying. Marriage takes work, but from both people.

This has been going on for over 20 years!


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> I freely admit I'm a relentless optimist. The above tells me your marital problems centre around the home and domesticity. Your problems disappear when you're out of that environment and it's just the two of you.


This is what makes it tough. When things are good, they are very good. When I can get her away from the house/kids she can relax and be fun and open and loving. 

The other day, my 19 year old daughter made a comment that she doesn't think she has ever seen us kiss. That when we have been in Mexico as a family, and my wife and I are holding hands, that the kids look at each other and think it is so strange.

When my daughter made the comment about the kiss, I was in a good mood. I went over to my wife, held her face and gave her a kiss on the lips. She didn't kiss me back, but she didn't get upset, but I could tell she felt uncomfortable. The kids laughed.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sam, do you realize compliments may not be her love language? I do hear ya. You're "fed up, sick and tired" and just want her to treat you with respect or get out. Sorry for you two. Good luck.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> This is what makes it tough. When things are good, they are very good. *When I can get her away from the house/kids she can relax and be fun and open and loving. *
> 
> The other day, my 19 year old daughter made a comment that she doesn't think she has ever seen us kiss. That when we have been in Mexico as a family, and my wife and I are holding hands, that the kids look at each other and think it is so strange.
> 
> When my daughter made the comment about the kiss, I was in a good mood. I went over to my wife, held her face and gave her a kiss on the lips. She didn't kiss me back, but she didn't get upset, but I could tell she felt uncomfortable. The kids laughed.


This makes one want to be on vacation ALL the time. What about being away brings out the best in her toward you? Have you asked her about why things are so different between you when you are away? Why can't she be just as loving at home with you? What prevents that?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> The point of this thread is that I feel like I do try to meet her needs. She puts up roadblocks. She 'never' tries to meet my needs and so I get pissed and it makes it tougher to keep trying. Marriage takes work, but from both people.
> 
> This has been going on for over 20 years!


Time for a change then? The way I see it there are three options:

1. You change
2. She changes
3. You change the dynamic

1 & 2 are unlikely right now. Go with 3 and 1 & 2 might happen of their own accord. You wife seems resentful of something(s). What it is we don't know. I think that's why she's disrespectful and picks a fight over the smallest thing. Case in point "The Dangerous Salmonella Incident of 2013" which has had you both suffering in silence for, what, five days now?

She has asked for greater communication. There'll be resources on the web for how to do this in non-accusatory ways (CM also pointed out some of the pitfalls of poor communication in his post). Find some 'ground rules' that you'll both follow and print out a copy each. Tell your wife you're taking her request seriously, you want to do it right for your discussion to be productive. Set and evening aside, without the kids and find out exactly what's going on in each other's heads before you reach the point of no return. There shouldn't be any expectation that you'll solve everything in one night. This would just be the start on an on-going dialogue, with better discipline on both sides.

Worth a shot?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Sam, do you realize compliments may not be her love language? I do hear ya. You're "fed up, sick and tired" and just want her to treat you with respect or get out. Sorry for you two. Good luck.


Her love language is 'acts of service' and 'quality time'. I try to meet these needs. 

Working 40 or 50 hours a week and providing a million dollar home, expensive cars and vacations somehow doesn't quality as 'acts of service' though. She wants me to help clean the clean house.

And 'quality time' is important to her, but it is up to me to set up dates/time together. Which she often declines.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Aw Sam...you two do have some work to do...counseling?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I have been a member of this forum for a few years now. Every year or so, my relationship with my wife gets so bad that I post a thread about it.

It always come down to the same responses. Counseling, Read this Book, Meet this Need, Communicate better .... 

I understand there is no magic wand to make it all work. After 25 years of marriage I am at the stage of either walk away or keep working on it. Everytime I post, I get new ideas to work on.

I really do LOVE her!!!

What always happens is that I will eventually give in and approach her. It is always me. This is what pisses me off, because many of our arguments are caused by her and she should be the one to apologize. I will approach her, she will give me more grief, I will insist on talking, hugging, whatever and she will eventually come around. I might get a 'thanks for understanding me so well' once we have 'made up'. 

I do think she loves me, just doesn't feel comfortable showing it.

Anyhow, last night she must have looked at the History on the Ipad at home and saw that I was checking out rental properties. I don't look at TAM when I am at home. I was as looking at properties as I have been thinking about leaving.

Yesterday, I golfed and afterwards I went to the office to do some work. Then I started watching the hockey game. Been trying to avoid her.

So last night, I get a text that says, "So u r looking for a condo?"

I don't respond 

At 10:45pm I get a text that says, "R u even coming home?"

I don't respond as I was about to leave for home.

I get home at 11:15pm and she is in bed. I crawl in next to her and go to sleep. I know she was awake, I thought she might say something, but as usual, nothing. She is waiting for me to make the first move, just like I have for the last 20 years.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sam, I don't really know the rest of your story...BUT...in many cases, it takes a separation or threat of it to push one spouse into realizing just how bad things have gotten.

Why not just tell her "yes, I am contemplating a separation, I have been meaning to talk to you about it" if that is the truth.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> She is waiting for me to make the first move, just like I have for the last 20 years.


And doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is called ... what??

You can do this dance for 20 more years. You can decide today that you will not do it another day, but you have to be willing to let her go. The minute you start to pull away, she's chasing after you. She needs to know how loss feels or you will get more of the same.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I am not sure if being stubborn (like her) is going to help. Instead of a week of my life wasted, it will be a month or two. When you get to be 50 years old, you start thinking that way.

I was very surprised by her text messages. Especially the second one. That is about as good as it has got in regards to showing she might actually care.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Then push the envelope further, until you get some kind of forward moving action from you both.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam, I don't really know the rest of your story...BUT...in many cases, it takes a separation or threat of it to push one spouse into realizing just how bad things have gotten.
> 
> Why not just tell her "yes, I am contemplating a separation, I have been meaning to talk to you about it" if that is the truth.


I really, really don't want that. Even though I have been thinking about it, and was looking for apartments!

I don't think it is a good idea to bluff. It will just make me look weaker when it doesn't happen.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I am not sure if being stubborn (like her) is going to help. Instead of a week of my life wasted, it will be a month or two. When you get to be 50 years old, you start thinking that way.
> 
> I was very surprised by her text messages. Especially the second one. That is about as good as it has got in regards to showing she might actually care.


How do you see letting her go as being stubborn? I don't advocate any tit for tat type stuff, that's not what I'm saying at all. If you want things to change you have to change the way you do things. It's really that simple. And it doesn't matter how old you are. If what you're saying is true then she's stuck in her ways and this is the lot of your life for the duration. Stinkin thinkin if you ask me. I'm 43 and I KNOW better than that. Spending another 20 years in a dysfuctional relationship is NOT okay.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, I didn't mean to do it as a bluff.

Do SOMETHING that will cause forward momentum.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

She should care about how unhappy YOU are. She should care about YOU. 

She doesn't and it's not OKAY. It's not something you should just live with. That's not the marriage you want.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> What always happens is that I will eventually give in and approach her. It is always me. This is what pisses me off, because many of our arguments are caused by her and she should be the one to apologize. I will approach her, she will give me more grief, I will insist on talking, hugging, whatever and she will eventually come around. I might get a 'thanks for understanding me so well' once we have 'made up'.


Well, this doesn't work; always being the one to approach annoys you and when you do you get more grief. And no apology ever. If this happened to me, I wouldn't bother doing it again.

So, you've got to try something new. I don't know about moving out though. Never a good way to improve communication or a relationship, imo.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> How do you see letting her go as being stubborn? I don't advocate any tit for tat type stuff, that's not what I'm saying at all. If you want things to change you have to change the way you do things. It's really that simple. And it doesn't matter how old you are. If what you're saying is true then she's stuck in her ways and this is the lot of your life for the duration. Stinkin thinkin if you ask me. I'm 43 and I KNOW better than that. Spending another 20 years in a dysfuctional relationship is NOT okay.


All marriages are not perfect. 

Yes, I hate this dynamic we have. But when times are good, they are very good. 

I know what you are saying, but I am not sure I am ready to walk away. She might just let me go! And knowing her, it might not be because she doesn't love me, just that she is stubborn and not capable of showing it in a healthy way.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"She might just let me go! And knowing her, it might not be because she doesn't love me, just that she is stubborn and not capable of showing it in a healthy way."

Sam, somehow you have to break through to her. You just have to. She does love you it sounds like, and you love her. Don't wait until it all corrodes into a divorce. Do SOMETHING. BEG her to talk about the issues if that is what it takes. Break down and cry in front of her. Let her know you love her so much and this is eating away at you. ANYTHING that will propel this forward.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Your good times should outweigh the bad by miles. I know that all marriages are not perfect, I've had 2 fail myself.

Something has to give. Since she's not bending it has to be you. She has to know how hurt you are... enough for her to want to change things.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

When you were on vacation, who made the decisions of where to go and what to do? Were they planned prior to the vacation by the both of you, or just you, or just your wife?

When you think of your married life, who makes the most decisions? Who makes the important ones about the relationship? Who decides where to go and what to do? Do you discuss it? Do you plan something on your own? Do you tell her every thought and idea you have? Do you do your own thing and invite her to come along and surprise her a little? I'm thinking of a kind of take charge thing here. I'm not thinking of doing something that might embarrass her. Just something she might enjoy, but you do enjoy. Something you haven't spoken about, but know has a decent chance of being something she will enjoy as well.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> ...I was very surprised by her text messages. Especially the second one. That is about as good as it has got in regards to showing she might actually care.


and yet you didnt even bother to respond? Anther missed opportunity that you read as an annoying event because you were already on the way home. She saw it perhaps as further evidence that you are incapable of normal communication.

Seems to me you are stubborn too, Mr. Sam. I see you have refered to her as stubborn. You both seem fairly entrenched.

I'm 50 too. shrug.

When you have both had enough of the same old crap and nothing ever changes.. well.. there you are. You both feel like you have gone as far as you can go - and neither of you can fully accept the other... its always head butting and conflict and nit picking and little comments and arguments and you keep doing the same old thing - and so does she.

You are 50 and still cant accept her and she cant accept you fully. Im not saying either of you is right or wrong - but at what point does one just decide to get past it? Or not.

Im just babling - I dont know what I would do if I were you besidses just be tired of it.

I will say that after I started accepting my wife and her flaws and just as importantly (perhaps more so) recognizing my own broken bits... it makes me see things a little differently. Seems to me that the more I realize how imperfect I am in my callous, crotchety, old age... the more I am able to tolerate her little imprefections... sometimes even wth a smile. I am not entirely joking. Life is way too short - and Im not throwing out the baby with the bathwater... as you say your good times are 'very good'. 

Have you tried to blow her away with some kind of full-on press with (for example, since you used it) text messaging? 

"Hi hon. Almost done here, will be home soon."

next day

"Hey - what was the name of that restaraunt we went to that time in ...."

next day..

"I stopped at the store.. I would have said something but I just pulled in on impulse. Need anything"?

...like you know... full freaking month of it. Maybe that would shut her up or at least get you both rowing in the same direction for a change.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> When you were on vacation, who made the decisions of where to go and what to do? Were they planned prior to the vacation by the both of you, or just you, or just your wife?


It was for our 25th Anniversary in May. We talked about where to go together. I searched out flights and places to stay. I showed her what I found. She knows how to browse the internet, but just trusts me to do it. I would like it if she came to me with a 'What about this place?' but it is always me doing the work and then us making a decision together.



> When you think of your married life, who makes the most decisions? Who makes the important ones about the relationship? Who decides where to go and what to do? Do you discuss it? Do you plan something on your own? Do you tell her every thought and idea you have? Do you do your own thing and invite her to come along and surprise her a little? I'm thinking of a kind of take charge thing here. I'm not thinking of doing something that might embarrass her. Just something she might enjoy, but you do enjoy. Something you haven't spoken about, but know has a decent chance of being something she will enjoy as well.


Most of the time we talk about doing something. Then I do all the planning, research and booking. I typically ask her for her input and final approval.

For her 40th birthday, I did it all. Arranged for her mom to come and watch the kids. Booked an all-inclusive resort and surprised her with it. She got uptight. A bit grumpy about it. What about this? What about that? Kind of things, but eventually she got on board. Once we were on the plane, all was good (actually great).


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Stop doing all the legwork yourself. Ask her to come into the room and sit down together and plan it from beginning to end. Do this every time you want to get away. Just because you come up with the idea doesn't mean you have to take it over.

I haven't gotten past the name calling. I still can't get past it. Her disrespect of you is really a terrible thing. And you catering to her even more after is really ... it's a bit masochistic.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

I agree. You need to dispense with the idea that doing it yourself is somehow 'easier'. Less trouble.

Yeah - it may be easier - but until you both can do some things together, its never going to get better. In fact - looks like it is making things worse.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> and yet you didnt even bother to respond? Anther missed opportunity that you read as an annoying event because you were already on the way home. She saw it perhaps as further evidence that you are incapable of normal communication.
> 
> Seems to me you are stubborn too, Mr. Sam. I see you have refered to her as stubborn. You both seem fairly entrenched.


I guess I am stubborn. But she takes it to an entirely new level. I am not kidding that this has gone on for many years and she has never once been the one to come to me to stop the fight.



> I'm 50 too. shrug.
> 
> When you have both had enough of the same old crap and nothing ever changes.. well.. there you are. You both feel like you have gone as far as you can go - and neither of you can fully accept the other... its always head butting and conflict and nit picking and little comments and arguments and you keep doing the same old thing - and so does she.
> 
> ...


This is the approach I have taken. Accept her for who she is. If I want affection, I need to approach her. No use waiting for her to approach me. 75% of the time she will push me away. I just take it.

She blows up at me for something small and I just do my best to not allow it to escalate. The next day I try to give her a hug. Sometimes it works, sometimes it takes a few days. But it is always me. 

Every year or so I post a thread because I can't take it anymore. I want her to show me she wants me. I want her to show me she loves me, without me having to make her do it. 



> Have you tried to blow her away with some kind of full-on press with (for example, since you used it) text messaging?
> 
> "Hi hon. Almost done here, will be home soon."
> 
> ...


Yes, I try to do things like this. Sent her a message a few days ago saying: "I love turning on my phone and seeing your face. Still working and still hoping to be home by 6:30." Then about 30 minutes later I sent her another one saying "Just finished. Heading home now.".

When I got home she was irritated I sent so many messages because she was painting and her phone kept beeping and she had to stop for a second to see it was just me.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> When I got home she was irritated I sent so many messages because she was painting and her phone kept beeping and she had to stop for a second to see it was just me.




So you're just a nuisance? Except of course when the mortgage needs paying, or she needs to go shopping or whatever. You're useful in THAT way.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> Stop doing all the legwork yourself. Ask her to come into the room and sit down together and plan it from beginning to end. Do this every time you want to get away. Just because you come up with the idea doesn't mean you have to take it over..


I have done this in the past. She will look with me for a bit. She doesn't have the patience to look at tons of different sites and find the best deal. She usually comments about how "it is too expensive" (she is a tight wad). 

Eventually she just tells me to handle it saying she trusts me to find a good place.

I have a feeling if I left it up to her, we wouldn't take many holidays.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I have done this in the past. She will look with me for a bit. She doesn't have the patience to look at tons of different sites and find the best deal. She usually comments about how "it is too expensive" (she is a tight wad).
> 
> Eventually she just tells me to handle it saying she trusts me to find a good place.
> 
> I have a feeling if I left it up to her, we wouldn't take many holidays.


Right. She's just along for the ride. Sightseeing if you will. When you turn a corner and the scenery isn't to her liking THEN she has plenty to say. Back seat driving in the relationship is what she's doing. She doesn't want to sit next to you or drive.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> ...When I got home she was irritated I sent so many messages because she was painting and her phone kept beeping and she had to stop for a second to see it was just me.


"You know honey... if you shut me down when I am trying to be nice - then what happens is that I find it harder to be nice next time. Thats the way it works. Im like a mouse in a maze... if you keep giving me electric shocks... eventually I will stop going for the cheese.

You know what happens after that keeps up long enough? You wind up like us."

I dont know. I have the patience of Job as some people I know have accused me... but I wouldnt take that kind of abuse for very long.

One thing I will not tolerate is unfair criticism and ridicule for no reason. Early on - it would occasionally baffle me if my wife came out of nowhere with some wierd comment or complaint or blow up at me for what I thought was no reason. I figured out she is fantastic at redirecting her anger. Lets say I did something like.. I dont know... didnt do somthing the way she wanted. 3 days later she blows up and we have at it and in the middle of it "..just like 3 days ago when you blah blah..". Really? is THAT what this is about? Well then maybe you should effing say something rather than incubate it for 3 days and then blow up about something else - because the way I folded the napkins isnt really a good reasonn to have a fight now, is it? (or something. You get the idea.) This isnt a problem any more. She has a problem with me, she says so - and I with her.

Your wife may have a ton of redirected resentment and anger - or maybe she is just a supreme b!tch or relentless commentary monger - something...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sorry man. I just can't help myself. This is what you guys remind me of and I don't know how to explain that. I could only post this so you know what your posts are making me think. It's almost comedic. I don't mean to make light of your marriage or your situation. It's just tough not to read and think of it this way. 

The Big Bang Theory S05E02 - "Like an old married couple" - YouTube

It's like you are so comfortable, you just enjoy complaining because there are no other really important things you want to do. Like your bucket list was completed too early or something and now you are looking at your watch all day, both of you.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> So you're just a nuisance? Except of course when the mortgage needs paying, or she needs to go shopping or whatever. You're useful in THAT way.


She isn't like that. We never had money when we started out. She appreciates the things we have. She is actually a tight wad. She shops a bunch, but often doesn't buy anything and when she does it is always a good deal.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> ...and now you are looking at your watch all day, both of you.


good one.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> She isn't like that. We never had money when we started out. She appreciates the things we have. She is actually a tight wad. She shops a bunch, but often doesn't buy anything and when she does it is always a good deal.


saying something positive feels good. Doesnt it.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> She isn't like that. We never had money when we started out. She appreciates the things we have. She is actually a tight wad. She shops a bunch, but often doesn't buy anything and when she does it is always a good deal.


So she's a tightwad, and she calls you stupid. She basically tells you that you're bugging her if you text one too many times. The 'oh it's just you' isn't indicating she WANTS to talk to you.

Still not warm and fuzzy over here.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

anotherguy said:


> saying something positive feels good. Doesnt it.


You know it does. He loves her and she loves him. That blood needs to start flowing again.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Sorry man. I just can't help myself. This is what you guys remind me of and I don't know how to explain that. I could only post this so you know what your posts are making me think. It's almost comedic. I don't mean to make light of your marriage or your situation. It's just tough not to read and think of it this way.
> 
> The Big Bang Theory S05E02 - "Like an old married couple" - YouTube
> 
> It's like you are so comfortable, you just enjoy complaining because there are no other really important things you want to do. Like your bucket list was completed too early or something and now you are looking at your watch all day, both of you.


I like watching that show. Not so fun living it!!!

I always like "Everybody Loves Raymond". You could see something happening. You could see Raymond about to do something that was going to get him in trouble. He would always do it and his wife would freak on him. 

Just call me Raymond.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I like watching that show. Not so fun living it!!!
> 
> I always like "Everybody Loves Raymond". You could see something happening. You could see Raymond about to do something that was going to get him in trouble. He would always do it and his wife would freak on him.
> 
> Just call me Raymond.


In sitcoms they make up at the end and it's like nothing ever happened.

That's not your life.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> For her 40th birthday, I did it all. Arranged for her mom to come and watch the kids. Booked an all-inclusive resort and surprised her with it. She got uptight. A bit grumpy about it. What about this? What about that? Kind of things, but eventually she got on board. Once we were on the plane, all was good (actually great).


so - you know that is partly how she deals with stress.

we do the annual bed and breakfast long weekend away thing. Not sure how it started but we always 'alternate' years. She does everything one year, then I do the next and its always a complete surprise to the other person as to where we are going and what the plan is. We have had a lot of with that - and it forces us to both be involved - at least every other year - soup to nuts.  When we were not paying attention - somewhere along the line it turned into one of those traditions that we both look forward to quite a bit.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> In sitcoms they make up at the end and it's like nothing ever happened.
> 
> That's not your life.


It has been so far. Not just today.

Every other time, we make up and all is great (for a few days).


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

That's a nice compromise anotherguy.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> It has been so far. Not just today.
> 
> Every other time, we make up and all is great (for a few days).


It's not all great. Even for those few days. Not when insults get thrown. Not when there's name calling. That comes from a very ugly place, and it didn't just get there at that particular moment.

You can minimize it if you want to, if it helps you. Maybe to you, she's worth every ounce of that contempt and disrespect she throws at you from time to time. I don't know you, but you're a person with feelings and I think you're better than that.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> so - you know that is partly how she deals with stress.
> 
> we do the annual bed and breakfast long weekend away thing. Not sure how it started but we always 'alternate' years. She does everything one year, then I do the next and its always a complete surprise to the other person as to where we are going and what the plan is. We have had a lot of with that - and it forces us to both be involved - at least every other year - soup to nuts.  When we were not paying attention - somewhere along the line it turned into one of those traditions that we both look forward to quite a bit.


I like this idea. But what I worry about is that she will get stressed doing the planning when it is her turn. 

Life isn't really all that great when she is stressed.


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## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

She said the two of you need to communicate more, what did she mean by that? 
And what kind of quality time she needed?


..usually when my husband and i came to a point where i blew up or begun to bring up his bad points as ammunition, He would just kept asking what else has been bothering me.. He continued to ask that until i said that's all and became calm..



You need to ask her the questions you asked here at TAM.
You have to tell her the observations about she, you and the relationship.. Which you already told us.


Sit down together, tell her you love her, but you dont like how some yhings are. You want things to be better. Ask her why is she being rude?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> For her 40th birthday, I did it all. Arranged for her mom to come and watch the kids. Booked an all-inclusive resort and surprised her with it. She got uptight. A bit grumpy about it. What about this? What about that? Kind of things, but eventually she got on board. Once we were on the plane, all was good (actually great).


I'd like to share a different perspective:

My wife once organised a surprise birthday party for me. It wasn't a big do - family and close friends only. I went for a quick Birthday drink with a buddy before hand. When I wanted to leave he made a phone call and said "Just hang around for one more". When I got home the surprise party was waiting for me. It was a very sweet thing my wife did and she went to a lot of trouble for me. But you know my first thought "I don't like things happening behind my back".

I know that's unreasonable of me. I did not let on at all. I'm not accusing my wife, my good friend (or my parents!) of anything untoward. But it was still my gut reaction. Some people just don't like surprises.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

anotherguy said:


> saying something positive feels good. Doesnt it.


I believe the biggest marriage killer is complacency and taking each other for granted. Before you know it you're only focusing on the negatives. BTDT.

Now, I'm not saying you let the negatives slide either. Disrespect will kill a relationship too. But too often we lose track of ALL the good things about our partners. Always a shame when that happens.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> I'd like to share a different perspective:
> 
> My wife once organised a surprise birthday party for me. It wasn't a big do - family and close friends only. I went for a quick Birthday drink with a buddy before hand. When I wanted to leave he made a phone call and said "Just hang around for one more". When I got home the surprise party was waiting for me. It was a very sweet thing my wife did and she went to a lot of trouble for me. But you know my first thought "I don't like things happening behind my back".
> 
> I know that's unreasonable of me. I did not let on at all. I'm not accusing my wife, my good friend (or my parents!) of anything untoward. But it was still my gut reaction. Some people just don't like surprises.


That wasn't my wife's reaction. She was surprised and worried about how a few things were going to happen when she was gone (things with our kids) but she loved the surprise and the trip.

She actually prefers not to be involved. She is fine with me researching a ton of places, picking one, picking a few things to do and then booking it all. She likes to just show up. I don't mind, but I feel a little anxious about what happens if the place is a dump or I screw up some dates or something.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> That wasn't my wife's reaction. She was surprised and worried about how a few things were going to happen when she was gone (things with our kids) but she loved the surprise and the trip.


Reasonable motherly response then (unlike my own).



> She actually prefers not to be involved. She is fine with me researching a ton of places, picking one, picking a few things to do and then booking it all. She likes to just show up. I don't mind, but I feel a little anxious about what happens if the place is a dump or I screw up some dates or something.


Nice set-up she has for herself there - low involvement/low risk, free with criticism if you 'screw up', nice holiday if you get everything right.

Are the two of you talking yet?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> Reasonable motherly response then (unlike my own).
> 
> Nice set-up she has for herself there - low involvement/low risk, free with criticism if you 'screw up', nice holiday if you get everything right.
> 
> Are the two of you talking yet?


Nope! I just want to reach out to her, but I realize that won't help our situation. 

I really need to make a decision if I want to stay or leave. Staying means feeling unloved but having a few good days now and then. Leaving means maybe being alone the rest of my life. Not great choices.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Nope! I just want to reach out to her, but I realize that won't help our situation.
> 
> I really need to make a decision if I want to stay or leave. Staying means feeling unloved but having a few good days now and then. Leaving means maybe being alone the rest of my life. Not great choices.


Why people always go to the "I'll end up old and alone" will always baffle me.

You're 50. You're not dead. You have a lot going for you... if you're with your wife because you think this is the BEST you can do or the BEST life has to offer you on a planet of 1 billion people, then I feel pity for you.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Nope! I just want to reach out to her, but I realize that won't help our situation.


It won't help the situation if you keep on doing things the way you've been doing them so far.

Being the first to reach out; no problem. But every time you take 100% of the blame for an argument (by not calling her out on her non-apology) you reinforce the idea that she doesn't have to be responsible. Before you know it this idea takes hold and trickles into every aspect of your lives - holiday planning, financial planning, etc

Reach out by all means, but she HAS to meet you half way. She HAS to apologise too. Call her on it (calmly & firmly) if she doesn't. Marriage is a 50/50 partnership. You both take half of the blame and half of the credit.

This also applies to ridiculous arguments about eggs/bowls/salmonella that have had you both pulling the silent treatment on each other for nearly a week.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

azteca1986 said:


> It won't help the situation if you keep on doing things the way you've been doing them so far.
> 
> Being the first to reach out; no problem. But every time you take 100% of the blame for an argument (by not calling her out on her non-apology) you reinforce the idea that she doesn't have to be responsible. Before you know it this idea takes hold and trickles into every aspect of your lives - holiday planning, financial planning, etc
> 
> ...


I can tell you exactly what would happen:

I reach out to her. She shows anger. Says something like, "So now I am just supposed to hug you and forget." She will say, "You don't talk to me for 5 days and expect me to be all warm?"

I will say something like, "You could have come to me. You can talk just as well as I can." "I will explain that I have been cold to her because our last exchange she was very disrespectful, calling me names about some raw egg on a bowl." 

She will stand by her original comment that I am not careful enough and I put the family in danger, blah blah blah

If I continue to hold her, she will probably end up putting her hand on mine, or turning on her side (her signal for me to hug her). I will hug her and eventually we will make love.

Afterwards, she will apologize. Tell me that she is so lucky to have me. That I understand her.

Then we will get along fine for a week or so. 

Then the next argument will happen. And it will all happen again.

I know it!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

How about you start with the dialogue first. No touching. Small talk, ask her how her day is etc. If she's responsive keep that going for a couple days THEN add the touching.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Think about it, if her first response will be 'you haven't spoken to me in days' then naturally you would want to not give her that option. Talk to her. You both are being stubborn right now, and stonewalling her is just as bad as her stonewalling you.

Next fight/disagreement/whateveryoucallit, don't allow 24 hours to go by without speaking to her. Take the wind out of her sails before they start to billow to begin with.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> Why people always go to the "I'll end up old and alone" will always baffle me.
> 
> You're 50. You're not dead. You have a lot going for you... if you're with your wife because you think this is the BEST you can do or the BEST life has to offer you on a planet of 1 billion people, then I feel pity for you.


You need to live in a relationship where you are never complimented and always criticized. Do this for a number of years. You will start to doubt yourself.

I actually don't think I would be alone. But I worry I won't find anyone better. My wife is a good mother and housekeeper and cook. 

I am 50, balding, grey and a little dumpy. Could stand to lose 20 lbs!!! I am worried I will attract someone for the wrong reason (money).

And the biggest truth ... I love my wife! With all the grief, the few good days we have a year seem worth it.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> Think about it, if her first response will be 'you haven't spoken to me in days' then naturally you would want to not give her that option. Talk to her. You both are being stubborn right now, and stonewalling her is just as bad as her stonewalling you.
> 
> Next fight/disagreement/whateveryoucallit, don't allow 24 hours to go by without speaking to her. Take the wind out of her sails before they start to billow to begin with.


We have come full circle. This is what usually happens. Our arguements don't usually last this long. I usually talk to her right away. She puts a front, plays 'hard to get', eventually comes around. She may or may not apologize for overreacting/being mean/disrespectful.

What I want is for her to do the work. She is the one causing the argument over next to nothing. She is the one not showing any affection, not initiating sex.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> You need to live in a relationship where you are never complimented and always criticized. Do this for a number of years. You will start to doubt yourself.
> 
> I actually don't think I would be alone. But I worry I won't find anyone better. My wife is a good mother and housekeeper and cook.
> 
> ...


What makes you think I haven't been beaten down in a relationship? OMG. I can cry a river as big and long as you can!!

I know you love your wife. You put up with so much because of that love, but you aren't doing yourself any favors. She's killing your spirit and taking your joy in HEAVY doses. That has to stop. You don't want the next 25 years to be like the last do you? That requires you to stop this cycle you are in. If you don't want to change anything, then why are you here?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> What makes you think I haven't been beaten down in a relationship? OMG. I can cry a river as big and long as you can!!
> 
> I know you love your wife. You put up with so much because of that love, but you aren't doing yourself any favors. She's killing your spirit and taking your joy in HEAVY doses. That has to stop. You don't want the next 25 years to be like the last do you? That requires you to stop this cycle you are in. If you don't want to change anything, then why are you here?


I want it to change. I really, really do!

This happens all the time. I start a thread. I get recommendations for communication, counselling, read books, etc. I have done all those things. She refuses counselling.

People say "Do the 180" I do that, she doesn't budge. It just makes the argument go on for weeks instead of days. Ending with me trying to 'kiss and make up'.

The bottom line is she needs to realize how serious this is to me. That I won't take being abused. For that, I have to be willing to leave. 

I know I don't want the marriage to be over.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

azteca1986 said:


> ...
> This also applies to ridiculous arguments about eggs/bowls/salmonella that have had you both pulling the silent treatment on each other for nearly a week.


my parents were like this. They couldnt live with each other and couldnt live without. For a lot of years they slept in different bedrooms. They would find little things and the smallest thing would lead to the silent treatment from all sides. The 'smallest things' were of course stupid things like eggs... but it was all wrapped up in her belittling him and he getting mad at her for crap like always being late or making plans without saying anything or being manipulative. Eventually - the smallest little things just open up the gates and the resentment pours out. They were FULLY resigned to being with each other - and frequently miserable about it too - and occassionally just plain old happy and comfortable.

I do feel that near the end - when he was sick - they did start simply letting some of the resentment and bickering ..just let it go - but they were in their 60s at that point. Probably just all worn out - and seemed things got much better.

They were married for 45 years before he died young - and it took my mother another 5 years before she could even begin to get past it in any meaningful way.

There is no shortage of old couples that have been together a long time and have clashed for just as long. Eventually - seems like they would feel lost without it.

babbling...


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I'm not married to my SO, but for me the following are important:-

Mutual respect
Loyalty
Good communication
Honesty
Trust
Healthy personal boundaries
Healthy marital / relationship boundaries
Maintaining romance and intimacy (physical and emotional)
Setting personal and mutual goals


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

anotherguy said:


> my parents were like this. They couldnt live with each other and couldnt live without. For a lot of years they slept in different bedrooms. They would find little things and the smallest thing would lead to the silent treatment from all sides. The 'smallest things' were of course stupid things like eggs... but it was all wrapped up in her belittling him and he getting mad at her for crap like always being late or making plans without saying anything or being manipulative. Eventually - the smallest little things just open up the gates and the resentment pours out. They were FULLY resigned to being with each other - and frequently miserable about it too - and occassionally just plain old happy and comfortable.
> 
> I do feel that near the end - when he was sick - they did start simply letting some of the resentment and bickering ..just let it go - but they were in their 60s at that point. Probably just all worn out - and seemed things got much better.
> 
> ...


I have a great relationship with my Mother In Law. About a year ago, my wife and I were going through one of these episodes. I was really thinking about leaving Worst it has ever got.

Anyhow, I ended up talking to my Mother In Law about it. My wife is very much like her father was (passed away a few years back). My MIL says things like, "I don't know how you put up with her" "She is so lucky to have you". She has actually told me to leave, but she says my wife "Would never give in." That she would just let me go.

As a side not, my MIL is one of the few people that knows what my wife is like. Most everyone think she is perfect.

I know that in the past, my MIL came very close to leaving her marriage but never did. When we were talking, I asked her if she ever regretted not leaving. She wouldn't answer the question. I am not sure if she knows the answer. She loved her husband, but put up with a bunch of crap.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> I'm not married to my SO, but for me the following are important:-
> 
> Mutual respect
> Loyalty
> ...


I think the only one my wife and I have is "Loyalty" Pretty sad.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"The bottom line is she needs to realize how serious this is to me.'

This should be your focus. How you can communicate to her how serious this is, that you aren't ready to walk out today, but you will be someday.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> "The bottom line is she needs to realize how serious this is to me.'
> 
> This should be your focus. How you can communicate to her how serious this is, that you aren't ready to walk out today, but you will be someday.


This is what the dilema is. 

I am thinking about writing her an email, putting all my feelings out there. I have done this in the past! As everything else, it seems to work for a while. 

If I talk to her face to face, she always turns it around on me. She is great at bringing up something that happened 20 years ago (or even longer) to deflect the actual issues.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

She isn't going to change. Not really. 

That leaves you.

You have to change. Or, accept it as is and not complain about it. She won't give you what you want in this marriage.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You allow your wife to act a certain way, and then act suprised she acts that way.

What you are doing by trying to outwait her is to tell her that her insane behavior fits within your marriage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sad...you can do this. You must do this. Write the letter, hand deliver it to her, put some conditions in it. Then see what happens. Try not to project what will happen.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm a very result oriented person. I also don't believe in spending a lot of time spinning my wheels with previous methods that didn't work long term. 

A problem that is recurring, requires a new problem solving method. Something that has NOT been attempted before has to be tried. Otherwise you will only get the same results you've been getting. It's just how it is.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> I'm a very result oriented person. I also don't believe in spending a lot of time spinning my wheels with previous methods that didn't work long term.
> 
> A problem that is recurring, requires a new problem solving method. Something that has NOT been attempted before has to be tried. Otherwise you will only get the same results you've been getting. It's just how it is.


I totally agree. 



SadSamIAm said:


> I can tell you exactly what would happen:


Do something different this time. That's the only way to get a different result.


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## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

Do something different. Great advice there.
How about the first step is to use a different and better username..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> It requires work like:
> 
> *Maintaining the boundaries of the marriage
> 
> ...


All good , just wanted to add further on the last point....this is ALL about *Self Awareness* ....when 2 people get this down pat...it is a smoother ride all the way around - to then deal with their issues... explained here >>



> The Importance of Self-Awareness | Sheer Balance
> 
> No one is perfect. We all have our “quirks” and unique personalities, and sometimes these can even make us cute, special or endearing to many. However, some “quirks” are a bit less attractive, and when they are, *self-awareness *is somewhat critical in either improving upon them or managing their impact on others.
> 
> ...







Cosmos said:


> I'm not married to my SO, but for me the following are important:-
> 
> Mutual respect
> Loyalty
> ...


What can anyone add to FaithfulWife's list and Cosmos here...I have never viewed my marriage as work.. though this is thanks to my husband...

I would say his putting up WITH ME -has been some work in the past....though he'd downplay that, I know him all too well. 

Some thoughts I have : 

*1.* When one is going though a hard time...(example...Nasty boss riding all the guys at work, co-workers causing drama...as wives we need to allow our men to VENT some of this - ask how their day is..show support....My husband does Vent on me and I WANT [email protected]#$.. 

When I couldn't get pregnant, I was grouchy, down right angry sometimes......he sympathized, did what he could to love me through that ).. his biggest trial with me.

*2.* Seek to understand what makes each other TICK....what brings your spouse the greatest Joy...seek to express their love languages...ASK QUESTIONS...never stop seeking to learn of the other, show interest....

*3*. We all *fight* once in a while  and if you don't..you are very rare indeed..and I would question if you are "stuffing" a little.... When we screw up.... show *humility* towards the other, admitting our faults...this often leads them into admitting theirs..and you will both find "forgiveness" flows easier... and often make up sex too!

*4.* do things you both enjoy together, connect, remember yesterday & what brought you together, reminisce those days, get out the photo album if you have to... Make a Movie Maker video of your lives together, add a special love song... you would be surprised how this can flood your emotions towards each other.

*5.* Laughter....do you enjoy each others sense of humor...and if you did in the past & this got lost......what happened?  Can you laugh at yourself? this will help. 

*6. * If their is  Resentment  .. Unearth it...dig deep...and get at the roots...so it can be overcome.

7. Validate each other, words of affirmation speaks LIFE to your spouse...uplifts their spirits.......http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/39565-validating-your-spouse.html


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> What actual work does a marriage require?


How much do you weigh? How tall are you?

For one thing, I think you need to exercise more, just like your wife said. You said she exercises every day. I see this as an area where you could develop a connection with her. You can exercise together. 



SadSamIAm said:


> She tells me I am lazy. That working in an office is easy. * That I lay around too much and need to exercise more. *
> I think she sees me as being inadequate around the house and the kids. That all I care about is having sex.


I heard around TAM that being in good condition makes a man's "sex rank" go up and his wife is more physically attracted to him? IDK, might work? (My H has never been inactive nor out of shape so I can't say from experience...)

Also, I think you should take her to Marriage Help Program For Couples


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I feel what triggers her anxiety is 'intimacy'. She had been asking me to talk to her more and to eat more healthy. We had a couple of really good days where I was doing what she has been asking.
> 
> When the egg situation happened, I think it was because she was feeling pressured to be intimate with me, because I had been meeting her needs.


I suggest you read Bagdon's thread, really get the exercise/workout and healthy eating going for YOURSELF and completely stop pressuring her for sex.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Blonde said:


> How much do you weigh? How tall are you?
> 
> For one thing, I think you need to exercise more, just like your wife said. You said she exercises every day. I see this as an area where you could develop a connection with her. You can exercise together.
> 
> ...


I agree that if I ate more healthy and exercised more than that might help. 

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that I am 6' tall and 208 lbs. I could stand to lose 20 lbs or so.

Something tells me that if I dropped 20lbs, she would find something else I would need to accomplish before I would be good enough for her.

My wife goes to work out classes every morning. It is when I am at work. Having an office job is tough on a person's body. Sitting all day long in front of a computer for 9 hours a day, for 30 years. It is also tiring. I do exercise three times a week on average.

Looking around I think I am pretty average compared to most 50 year old men. I hate to think that I have to get 'ripped' and stay that way for the rest of my life just so my wife will care about my needs. I don't mind exercising in moderation.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> All good , just wanted to add further on the last point....this is ALL about *Self Awareness* ....when 2 people get this down pat...it is a smoother ride all the way around - to then deal with their issues... explained here >>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great information. Lots to think about and work on. 

It is a mixed bag. For example: I know I am not a great listener, but I have no problem apologizing and admitting I am wrong. My wife is a great listener but never apologizes or admits she is wrong.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Do it for yourself, Sam. You can't look at it as a hoop you jump through just to get a bone from your wife or it will be counterproductive (repel her rather than attract!)

Again, read Bagdon's thread. He started out sexless and he got into a workout routine alone. A few more pages along, they workout together and she can't keep her hands off him...


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> It is a mixed bag. For example: I know I am not a great listener, but I have no problem apologizing and admitting I am wrong. My wife is a great listener but never apologizes or admits she is wrong.


This is a really healthy observation.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Blonde said:


> Do it for yourself, Sam. You can't look at it as a hoop you jump through just to get a bone from your wife or it will be counterproductive (repel her rather than attract!)
> 
> Again, read Bagdon's thread. He started out sexless and he got into a workout routine alone. A few more pages along, they workout together and she can't keep her hands off him...



If I was doing it for myself, then I wouldnt be doing it. I think I am in good enough shape. I like how I am and what I eat. 

Would it be fair for me to ask her to to quit working out and to gain a few pounds as I like my women curvier, less muscle and more meat?

I could see your point if I was dramatically overweight and never exercised at all. 

I have read Bagdon's thread.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I can tell you exactly what would happen:
> 
> I reach out to her. She shows anger. Says something like, "So now I am just supposed to hug you and forget." She will say, "You don't talk to me for 5 days and expect me to be all warm?"
> 
> ...


^^You know exactly how to melt the ice with your wife, so why do you wait? Why not melt the ice quickly after an argument instead of dragging it out?

And BTW your wife works very hard and I think at least some of it is for you and for the marriage. She exercises and keeps fit, keeps the house nice, and is a frugal woman (which takes a lot of effort and self discipline). And the fact that she lectures you to eat healthy and exercise says "I love you and I don't want anything to happen to you."

Any chance you can retire early? Sounds like a lot of travelling and relaxing together is good times for you two...


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Blonde said:


> ^^You know exactly how to melt the ice with your wife, so why do you wait? Why not melt the ice quickly after an argument instead of dragging it out?


I typically do. But the point of my thread is why is it ALWAYS me. Why isn't it her that sometimes apologizes when she over reacts? Why isn't it her that sets up a date for the two of use? 



> And BTW your wife works very hard and I think at least some of it is for you and for the marriage. She exercises and keeps fit, keeps the house nice, and is a frugal woman (which takes a lot of effort and self discipline). And the fact that she lectures you to eat healthy and exercise says "I love you and I don't want anything to happen to you."


I agree. But why does she ignore other things about my health. Dr. Oz says that sex a couple of times a week is very important for a man's prostrate. Most books talk about happiness being one of the key factors in regards to living a healty, longer life.



> Any chance you can retire early? Sounds like a lot of travelling and relaxing together is good times for you two...


This is in the plans. Hopefully the business continues to do well and I can hire someone that can learn what I learn and I can take much more time off. Hope to be 'semi' retired by 55.

I love my kids, but I am looking forward to them moving out. My oldest is away at college. My next is in college but living at home. I would encourage her to move out with a room mate. My wife wants the oldest to move home after college if she gets a job close by :scratchhead:. I want them out on their own.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree. But why does she ignore other things about my health. Dr. Oz says that sex a couple of times a week is very important for a man's prostrate.


LOL! I have lost count of how many things sex will cure according to my H. It's a running joke. 

Here you go, you can show her this: Healthy sex life can make you look 7 years younger


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I typically do. But the point of my thread is *why is it ALWAYS me*. *Why isn't it her* that sometimes apologizes when she over reacts? *Why isn't it her* that sets up a date for the two of use?


I'm an extremely submissive wife, a responder. If he ignores me and gives me cold shoulder he's going to get it right back. * He* sets the tone.

(((((shrug))))))

Maybe some women like to wear the pants and lead the relationship but not me. I'm a sheep waiting to be shepherded. 

OTH


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sam,
You cannot hope to improve the marriage if:
1. 3 out of 4 attempts at non sexual affection result in her pushing you away. That frequency of 'core' rejection is like acid in terms of her respect for you. 
2. The fact that she won't approach you to apologize is predicated on her confidence that there is no consequence to her going weeks or months in frozen silence even when she was in the wrong.

You have taught her that it is ok to treat you badly. 





QUOTE=SadSamIAm;4654953]I can tell you exactly what would happen:

I reach out to her. She shows anger. Says something like, "So now I am just supposed to hug you and forget." She will say, "You don't talk to me for 5 days and expect me to be all warm?"

I will say something like, "You could have come to me. You can talk just as well as I can." "I will explain that I have been cold to her because our last exchange she was very disrespectful, calling me names about some raw egg on a bowl." 

She will stand by her original comment that I am not careful enough and I put the family in danger, blah blah blah

If I continue to hold her, she will probably end up putting her hand on mine, or turning on her side (her signal for me to hug her). I will hug her and eventually we will make love.

Afterwards, she will apologize. Tell me that she is so lucky to have me. That I understand her.

Then we will get along fine for a week or so. 

Then the next argument will happen. And it will all happen again.

I know it![/QUOTE]


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree that if I ate more healthy and exercised more than that might help.
> 
> Earlier in the thread I mentioned that I am 6' tall and 208 lbs. I could stand to lose 20 lbs or so.
> 
> ...


Sam it not what she thinks about weight loss and healthy eating, it's how you will feel about yourself. It an accomplishment and shows you care about your appearance. 

If she finds something else to complain about, handle it at that time. Don't concentrate on her reaction for now. Although it would certainly make you feel more motivated if your wife gave you some positive feedback.


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