# Passive-aggressive wife.



## Mime

Anyone here living with a passive-aggressive woman? 

I found this site while trying to find some dope on it, but there's a shortage of info about passive-aggressive women. 

This place looks pretty switched on, so I'm asking the question.

I'd welcome any tips on how to survive a PA woman! 

Mike.


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## Ten_year_hubby

Mime,

You're not going to find much info regarding female anger, I guess the operative strategy is if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Seriously, passive aggressive behavior is a dysfunctional expression of anger. Marriage partners with anger problems usually bring them into their marriages from other sources. Understanding this and working through it almost always requires counseling. Getting to this point can be tricky but it requires both partners to agree that there is a problem


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## Mime

I could stand the heat alright, if she would only show it! But PA people apparently are unable or unwilling to reveal their anger overtly. That's what makes them PA.

No way is there going to be counselling. PA people tend to resist it, so I've read. And they're very good at resisting!

Thanks for your input, 10Year.


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## AFEH

There’s a thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/47794-passive-aggressive-am-i-crazy.html you might like to take a look at.

What do you mean by “how to survive a PA woman”? How to live with her, how to live without her, how to change her? Or something else?

I didn’t know it for what it was at the time, but I was married to a PA woman for a very long time.


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## CallaLily

You might could check out some books on passive aggression, or there should be tons of info on the web about it too.


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> There’s a thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/47794-passive-aggressive-am-i-crazy.html you might like to take a look at.
> 
> What do you mean by “how to survive a PA woman”? How to live with her, how to live without her, how to change her? Or something else?
> 
> I didn’t know it for what it was at the time, but I was married to a PA woman for a very long time.


Thanks. I'll check it out.

I mean "survive" literally. This sht is killing me! My BP is through the roof. I keep seeing all these "little mistakes" she makes and I know from experience that it's futile to talk to her about it. Like a classsic PA, she refuses to acknowledge there's anything wrong. 

I just hope there's some tried-and-true method of putting a stop to this behaviour without the cost of a divorce.


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## lamaga

Sounds like your problem may go beyond a simple PA diagnosis.


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## Mime

CallaLily said:


> You might could check out some books on passive aggression, or there should be tons of info on the web about it too.


There IS tons of info on the Web about it, Lily. But it's mostly diagnostic stuff. Anything I've found that gives advice about how to deal with a PA person is addressed to women. There seems to be a popular notion that only men are passive-aggressive... which doesn't ring true to me because we don't need to be passive-aggressive, since we can "legitimately" be outright aggressive if we want.


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## AFEH

Why do little mistakes bother you so very much. Just let them go, they’ll handle themselves while you fix the really big stuff. Pointing out little mistakes while not acknowledging contributions p!sses people off really big time.

All you’ve spoken of is her little mistakes without any good about her. That’s really strange to me.

If you’ve nothing else to focus yourself on other than her little mistakes then uncover and count your blessings and take care of them before you lose them.


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## Mime

lamaga said:


> Sounds like your problem may go beyond a simple PA diagnosis.


It's her problem, but she's making it my problem.


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> Why do little mistakes bother you so very much. Just let them go, they’ll handle themselves while you fix the really big stuff. Pointing out little mistakes while not acknowledging contributions p!sses people off really big time.
> 
> All you’ve spoken of is her little mistakes without any good about her. That’s really strange to me.
> 
> If you’ve nothing else to focus yourself on other than her little mistakes then uncover and count your blessings and take care of them before you lose them.


I put "little mistakes" in parenthesis, to indicate that they're not genuine mistakes. They're the tactics of the classic PA type. As you were married to a PA woman, you'll know exactly what I mean.


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> There’s a thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/47794-passive-aggressive-am-i-crazy.html you might like to take a look at.


I checked out Page One of that thread, AFEH, and I'm not encouraged.... seems like PA is a thing that never goes away.

Still, there are about a dozen pages in that thread, so I'll pore through them all and see if I can find an answer.


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> I put "little mistakes" in parenthesis, to indicate that they're not genuine mistakes. They're the tactics of the classic PA type. As you were married to a PA woman, you'll know exactly what I mean.


I obviously didn’t know what you meant.

What do you do? Boundaries are the thing. PAs don’t heal their wounds from the past, they keep them festering in the present as a reminder of “what happened”.

Tell your wife she either forgives you for your past mistakes and heals her wounds or it’s over and you end the marriage. You give her the choice, forgive or it’s over.

Tell her you’ll help her heal her wounds if you like. But let her know unless she does it’s over.

How she responds will guide you to the right action. If you get “I’ll never ever forgive you” then at the very least you’ll know exactly where you stand and what your future with her will be like.

Your wife is a “victim” and she’s persecuting and punishing you for your past mistakes, either real or imagined. Or she may be persecuting and punishing you for things that happened in her childhood long before she met you.

You are on what’s called the Karpman Drama Triangle, see Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. One way of getting off the triangle is to persecute your wife. That happens when you actually see yourself as a victim of her persecution and punishment and when she’s caused you a great deal of pain. It’s the pain that makes you eject her out of your life such that she never hurts you again.


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> I checked out Page One of that thread, AFEH, and I'm not encouraged.... seems like PA is a thing that never goes away.
> 
> Still, there are about a dozen pages in that thread, so I'll pore through them all and see if I can find an answer.


Can PA go away? Can they heal themselves? PA is a lot about being Nice, believe it or not. It’s a lot about being non confrontational and avoiding conflict. It’s a lot about ducking and diving instead of facing the truth. It’s a lot about unresolved and festering long term issues.

I am greatly heartened by some of the Nice Guys here when they’ve recognised and owned up to their own passive aggressive behaviour. And I somehow don’t doubt that they will change themselves such that their levels of passive aggression are on the lower end of the spectrum.

For my wife I had absolutely no hope at all. None whatsoever. I still don’t and that’s why I am not with her. She is way too Nice to own up to that sort of behaviour.


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## Jamison

There are ways to DEAL with passive/aggressive people. Search for ways and things to try. Just because you are learning ways to deal with it, doesn't mean it will stop it or make it go away. It may help lessen the way that person irritates you though. 

If you have done everything under the sun, and tried most all things, and they still operate in that manner, then it comes down to choice. Stay and hope things get better, or leave. Life is short and no one wants to be around people who operate in that manner and are not willing to learn to try and help them selves. 

Also another thing to keep in mind, the person you are dealing with thats operating in a passive aggressive manner may also have something else going on, such as a undiagnosed mental disorder. Unfortunately though, unless that person goes to a counselor/doctor and gets checked out, would be hard to know for sure, if it just a person with deep rooted ingrained poor learned behaviors such as passive aggression, or if they have something deeper going on.


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> I obviously didn’t know what you meant.


Well, I was going to write, "you should know what I mean", but it sounded discourteous so I altered it for politeness.



> What do you do? Boundaries are the thing. PAs don’t heal their wounds from the past, they keep them festering in the present as a reminder of “what happened”.
> 
> Tell your wife she either forgives you for your past mistakes and heals her wounds or it’s over and you end the marriage. You give her the choice, forgive or it’s over.


"Blame the victim"? This has been going on from the earliest days of our marriage, (ten years ago). At the time I just thought it was forgetfulness or habits from her previous (abusive) marriage.

But it never stopped and when I talked to her about it, she reacted in what I now know is the classic PA defence posture.



> Tell her you’ll help her heal her wounds if you like. But let her know unless she does it’s over.


Even telling her she's *got* wounds would make her go silent and sullen.



> How she responds will guide you to the right action. If you get “I’ll never ever forgive you”...


At the risk of sounding like *I'm* making a PA defence, her "forgiveness" of me isn't necessary. There is no issue there, I'm glad to say.



> Or she may be persecuting and punishing you for things that happened in her childhood long before she met you......


*Bingo!* She was raised in a home where the father was an abusive hypercritical moron and the mother was a docile Christian.... enough said? 

That's why I'm here for advice on how to deal with her PA.


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## Jamison

Mime said:


> That's why I'm here for advice on how to deal with her PA.


And people are trying to give you some advice....look into books the web, or a professional counselor. Theres not a lot you can do but those things and try and do some things suggested. You have to take care of you.


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> Can PA go away? Can they heal themselves? PA is a lot about being Nice, believe it or not. It’s a lot about being non confrontational and avoiding conflict. It’s a lot about ducking and diving instead of facing the truth. It’s a lot about unresolved and festering long term issues.


It's also about taking the path of least resistance. I suspect that the reason it's so difficult to change a PA person is that it's just too easy for them to keep a habit that has worked for them for so long. 



> I am greatly heartened by some of the Nice Guys here when they’ve recognised and owned up to their own passive aggressive behaviour. And I somehow don’t doubt that they will change themselves such that their levels of passive aggression are on the lower end of the spectrum.


You know, I'm prepared to admit that I very probably have some PA tendencies myself. My childhood was extremely fertile soil for that habit to grow in. 

But I'm also a person who despises anything in myself that screws me around. So while doing research on the subject, I've taken it on-board for my own edification. 



> She is way too Nice to own up to that sort of behaviour.


"Too "Nice". That's interesting. Is that a trait of PAs? My wife is the "Nicest" person you could meet... anybody would tell you that. So one impediment to changing such behaviour is the "Nice" syndrome? Interesting. I'll read more about that. Thanks.


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## Mime

Jamison said:


> And people are trying to give you some advice....look into books the web, or a professional counselor. Theres not a lot you can do but those things and try and do some things suggested. You have to take care of you.


And I'm listening. I'm not ignoring you.


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## Mime

Jamison said:


> There are ways to DEAL with passive/aggressive people. Search for ways and things to try.


That's why I'm here, Jamison.


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## Jamison

Mime, check out the link below. See if any of it rings a bell for you. Understand that its based on a man having PA, BUT the best thing to do is replace the HE with SHE or whatever best suits your situation. Many PEOPLE are PA, men and women. Bottom line regardless, you will need to learn to set boundaries, and learn what you will and will not accept/tolerate in your relationship. 

Get Your ANGRIES Out


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## Mime

Jamison said:


> Mime, check out the link below. See if any of it rings a bell for you. Understand that its based on a man having PA, BUT the best thing to do is replace the HE with SHE or whatever best suits your situation. Many PEOPLE are PA, men and women. Bottom line regardless, you will need to learn to set boundaries, and learn what you will and will not accept/tolerate in your relationship.
> 
> Get Your ANGRIES Out


Yeah, thanks, Jamison. I came across that site before, but it seemed to be yet another site that primarily addressed PA men. It mentions women, but only in the context of their relationship with a PA man. That bias gets very tiresome after a while.

Still, I have another look and see if I can glean anything from it.

Thanks.


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## SunnyT

I was P/A in my prior marriage. I can see it in hindsight. For me, it was a coping strategy. I was too nice also. 

But it all plays into the dynamics of the relationship. For us, it was like P/A vs. Bully. 

I knew it was futile to "talk it out" or have a mature, honest discussion with him. Sometimes, my passive aggressive actions actually led to me being able to SAY what I meant or needed, whether he took it to heart or not. 

It all sounds so lame now. We've divorced, I've grown, I've married a man who COMMUNICATES. Yes, the tendencies were mine, I own that. The purpose was to co-exist... for as long as I needed to. Gosh, I was so P/A that he probably missed half of it. 

I don't have any advice, except to be frank/open and honest with her. Don't sugar coat anything. 

I agree that the tendencies are within the P/A... I am the middle child of 12, non-aggressive, nice, non-confrontational, etc... My P/A actions served me well at the time. I know people will say I was avoiding.... which was maybe all I could do at the time. Even in hindsight...I can see how it served me to be passive/aggressive as opposed to oppositional...which was the alternate choice since mature and open were not on the table. 

As I've grown tho, and not having to depend on such an immature so-and-so, I don't need that coping skill/strategy/crutch. I am a mature professional who is laid back and easy to get along with, and understands the value of communication. 

Not sure if that helped, just trying to give some insight.


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## Mime

SunnyT said:


> Gosh, I was so P/A that he probably missed half of it.


Lol, _that_ made me laugh!



> Even in hindsight...I can see how it served me to be passive/aggressive as opposed to oppositional...which was the alternate choice since mature and open were not on the table.


Yes, that's relevant to me. I have been toying with the idea of beginning the conversation by admitting to my own PA tendencies, and seeing if that helps her let her guard down. I like to think I'm mature enough to handle whatever the conversation will expose. But I guess I have to be prepared to confront my own demons in the process.

Thanks for your candour, Sunny.


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> At the risk of sounding like *I'm* making a PA defence, her "forgiveness" of me isn't necessary. There is no issue there, I'm glad to say.


Her forgiveness of you isn’t necessary. And you believe that. You really do believe that. Take a look at the thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/48885-dealing-unforgiving.html.

Your wife’s forgiveness of you is absolutely necessary if the two of you are to have a happy and healthy marriage. If your wife does not forgive you she will still be persecuting and punishing you while you are in your 70s for things you did decades previously.

A significant part of a PAs punishment, the way they punish you, is to withhold their loving actions. So whatever their love languages are, they stop doing those things for you. But even worse, a woman knows (believe me they know) what your love languages are as well and they also withhold those loving actions.

That’s how love leaves a marriage, through the PAs withholding of love as they persecute and punish.

Passive aggression is like a malignant cancer in a marriage with the worse possible prognosis if it is not operated on. Part of that operation is carried out through acts forgiving.


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> Yes, that's relevant to me. I have been toying with the idea of beginning the conversation by admitting to my own PA tendencies, and seeing if that helps her let her guard down. I like to think I'm mature enough to handle whatever the conversation will expose. But I guess I have to be prepared to confront my own demons in the process.


Well done with recognising your own PA tendencies. It is exceedingly necessary for a PA person to become very introspective and honest with themselves. After you’ve had a good look, can you see how to heal your own wounds?

That’s the trick. Healing your own wounds such that they close up and no longer fester away causing pain and it’s subsequent anger. That healing is done by forgiving the person who wounded you. I know no other way. You do not need the other person to help you heal, although a sincere and heartfelt apology works wonders.

But the PA is no longer a child who cannot see cause and effect and who cannot heal their own wounds. It is for the PA adult to heal their own wounds such that the pain and associated anger dissipates and goes away.


Forgiveness is absolutely necessary for a happy and healthy marriage. Without it trench warfare exists with each partner trying to hurt the other. It’s crazy. See if you can get your wife on The Marriage Course - Explore Alpha Marriage Course | Alpha USA.

Look at the sessions …
Session Topics

1. Building Strong Foundations – This session helps couples to look at their lifestyle and its effect upon their marriage, and to discover more about each other’s needs and desires – particularly on an emotional level.

2. The Art of Communication – Listening is a vital skill for a strong marriage. In this session couples practise communicating their feelings and listening effectively to one another.

3. Resolving Conflict – In this session we look at how couples can increase their intimacy by expressing appreciation to each other, recognising their differences, learning to negotiate disagreements and praying for each other (if they feel comfortable doing so).

_4. The Power of Forgiveness – This session addresses the ways we will inevitably have hurt each other and how to resolve these so we don’t create a backlog of anger and resentment. We look at the process of healing through identifying the hurt, saying sorry and forgiving._

5. The Impact of Family – Past and Present – This session focuses on helping couples to recognise how their family background affects the way they relate to each other. They also consider how to build a good and healthy relationship with their parents, in-laws and wider family, and how hurt from childhood can be healed.

6. Good Sex – Sexual intimacy needs to be worked at and developed. It isn’t just the icing on the cake; it’s a vital ingredient of the cake itself. In this session couples are encouraged to talk about their sexual relationship and to recognise where they need to make changes.

7. Love in Action – This session looks at five ways of expressing love – through words, time, touch, presents and actions. Couples discover which expression of love is most important for their partner and how to put this into practice.


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> Your wife’s forgiveness of you is absolutely necessary if the two of you are to have a happy and healthy marriage. If your wife does not forgive you she will still be persecuting and punishing you while you are in your 70s for things you did decades previously.


I'm definitely missing something here. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're stating categorically that I must have done something unforgivable to my wife in the past, and that her passive-aggressive behaviour is a result of that act...

Based on?


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> After you’ve had a good look, can you see how to heal your own wounds?


In our case, my wounds are my problem only. They don't impact on her. I live with my wounds the way a vet lives with his battle scars. Also, I'm hyper-aware of myself, always have been. I'm aware that my childhood made me tend towards passive aggression, and being aware of it, I allow for it. 

My wife, however, is still ignorant of these kinds of things. She's not a very reflective person and introspection is not her strong suit.



> But the PA is no longer a child who cannot see cause and effect and who cannot heal their own wounds. It is for the PA adult to heal their own wounds such that the pain and associated anger dissipates and goes away.


I disagree there. The wounds were inflicted upon the child, not the adult. And that child's emotional response to those wounds got lodged in the child's mind. As somebody once observed; Nobody ever really grows up. We only learn how to behave in public.


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> I'm definitely missing something here.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're stating categorically that I must have done something unforgivable to my wife in the past, and that her passive-aggressive behaviour is a result of that act...
> 
> Based on?


Take another look at ….

_4. The Power of Forgiveness – This session addresses the ways we will inevitably have hurt each other and how to resolve these so we don’t create a backlog of anger and resentment. We look at the process of healing through identifying the hurt, saying sorry and forgiving._

Unless you are a Saint, you will have done something to hurt your wife. Even if you are a Saint, as far as your wife is concerned you may still have done something to hurt her. One person’s medicine is another person’s poison and all that.

Passive Aggressives DO NOT FORGIVE. And that is WHY they are passive aggressive. A person cannot forgive AND be passive aggressive.

What is forgivable? What isn’t forgivable? That is totally dependent on the person and the behaviour!

So in answer to your question, you will never know if a behaviour was unforgivable or not unless you ask your wife, such is the exceedingly subjective nature of these things!


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> In our case, my wounds are my problem only. They don't impact on her. I live with my wounds the way a vet lives with his battle scars. Also, I'm hyper-aware of myself, always have been. I'm aware that my childhood made me tend towards passive aggression, and being aware of it, I allow for it.


Well then I say to you you are in denial. In one breadth you say you may own up to your own PA acts and in the next you say your wounds have no affect on your wife. That’s denial, one of the main tools of the passive aggressive!

You live with your wounds like a vet does with his battle scars. For me that’s crazy stuff. I spend a lot of time healing my wounds such that I forget them. Carrying wounds around with me like medals on my chest just seems ridiculous and crazy. No wonder you’ve never healed.


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> I disagree there. The wounds were inflicted upon the child, not the adult. And that child's emotional response to those wounds got lodged in the child's mind. As somebody once observed; Nobody ever really grows up. We only learn how to behave in public.


I think you are in denial again!


Passive aggressives have very “tender” or “fragile” egos. They can for example take offence at the slightest criticism no matter how constructive or how well meant.

_“Even telling her she's got wounds would make her go silent and sullen.” _Yep. You’d wound her (ego) by telling her she’s got wounds. 

I don’t believe PAs actually do grow up in some ways. They always remain that “wounded child” and that wounded child can create havoc not only for themselves but for those around them as well. I have seen the very worse of these things. Some PAs are truly embittered people.

But there are others who were wounded as children as well. And those wounds may well have been a whole lot worse than the passive aggressive’s wounds. But the non passive aggressive took a different path and refused to be held to ransom all their life by the ills of their childhood.

That’s the difference.


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> Passive Aggressives DO NOT FORGIVE. And that is WHY they are passive aggressive. A person cannot forgive AND be passive aggressive.


Then that suggests that it's a waste of time to search back to find some wrongdoing on my part. If she wasn't passive-aggressive to begin with, she would have addressed that wrongdoing at the time it happened, and so there would be no instances of PA for me to notice. 



> So in answer to your question, you will never know if a behaviour was unforgivable or not unless you ask your wife, such is the exceedingly subjective nature of these things!


I think if I were to sit her down and ask her if there was some misdeed of mine in the past that she resented but didn't mention at the time, it would be tantamount to failing a "fitness test" that she didn't even give! In fact, her PA would kick in and she'd feign surprise, the better to keep me talking about HER.

It's a minefield, that's for sure.


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> Well then I say to you you are in denial. In one breath you say you may own up to your own PA acts and in the next you say your wounds have no affect on your wife. That’s denial, one of the main tools of the passive aggressive!


Nono, I said I "tend towards" PA, but I allow for it. Which means that I nip it in the bud when circumstances provoke it. 



> You live with your wounds like a vet does with his battle scars. For me that’s crazy stuff. I spend a lot of time healing my wounds such that I forget them. Carrying wounds around with me like medals on my chest just seems ridiculous and crazy. No wonder you’ve never healed.


Making a lot of assumptions there...


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> I think you are in denial again!
> 
> 
> Passive aggressives have very “tender” or “fragile” egos. They can for example take offence at the slightest criticism no matter how constructive or how well meant.
> 
> _“Even telling her she's got wounds would make her go silent and sullen.” _Yep. You’d wound her (ego) by telling her she’s got wounds.
> 
> I don’t believe PAs actually do grow up in some ways. They always remain that “wounded child” and that wounded child can create havoc not only for themselves but for those around them as well. I have seen the very worse of these things. Some PAs are truly embittered people.


I think none of us ever really "grow up". We merely get older. And since it takes years to get older, we have a lot of time to learn how to "act". 



> But there are others who were wounded as children as well. And those wounds may well have been a whole lot worse than the passive aggressive’s wounds. But the non passive aggressive took a different path and refused to be held to ransom all their life by the ills of their childhood.


I suspect every PA person started his/her PA career some time in their childhood. It seems unlikely to me that a normal adult would become PA because of some bad experience in their adulthood. If they did, it would suggest that there was an inherent tendency there to begin with.


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## Caribbean Man

Mime said:


> Anyone here living with a passive-aggressive woman?
> 
> *I found this site while trying to find some dope on it, but there's a shortage of info about passive-aggressive women*.
> 
> This place looks pretty switched on, so I'm asking the question.
> 
> I'd welcome any tips on how to survive a PA woman!
> 
> Mike.


WOW!
Same here!
i came across this site by accident,while looking for information on passive aggressive women [ aka my wife ]


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## Mime

Caribbean Man said:


> WOW!
> Same here!
> i came across this site by accident,while looking for information on passive aggressive women [ aka my wife ]


So, what did you find out, C-Man?


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> I live with my wounds the way a vet lives with his battle scars.





Mime said:


> Nono, I said I "tend towards" PA, but I allow for it. Which means that I nip it in the bud when circumstances provoke it.
> 
> 
> 
> Making a lot of assumptions there...


This is a major difference between a PA and a non PA. In that non PAs don’t have wounds to “live with”!

Take a leg that’s been broken. It’s set and in time it heals. Once it’s healed the guy gets on with his life and forgets all about the pain associated with the break. That pain is long buried in the dusty area of his memory.

If he were to keep recalling the pain, he would keep the wound forever open in his mind such that he’d probably favour his leg and walk with a limp even though his leg is perfectly healthy.

It’s the same with emotional wounds. The non PA person will do everything he possibly can to heal his wound. Such that he never ever thinks of it again! He most certainly does not “live with” his wounds in any way whatsoever!

The PA never heals their wounds, so they forever "live with them".


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## Mime

AFEH said:


> This is a major difference between a PA and a non PA. In that non PAs don’t have wounds to “live with”!
> 
> Take a leg that’s been broken. It’s set and in time it heals. Once it’s healed the guy gets on with his life and forgets all about the pain associated with the break. That pain is long buried in the dusty area of his memory.
> 
> If he were to keep recalling the pain, he would keep the wound forever open in his mind such that he’d probably favour his leg and walk with a limp even though his leg is perfectly healthy.
> 
> It’s the same with emotional wounds. The non PA person will do everything he possibly can to heal his wound. Such that he never ever thinks of it again! He most certainly does not “live with” his wounds in any way whatsoever!
> 
> The PA never heals their wounds, so they forever "live with them".


I think you and I are on different pages, AFEH. I want to know how to deal with my wife's PA, not my own. I have mine under control, or at least under constant surveilance. It doesn't cause problems for my wife. She's blissfully ignorant of it. And I think that's a good thing.

It's my wife who still has open wounds and is PA because of them. BUT she doesn't realise it. She avoids anything that might force her to stop and think about herself. Not self-aware, not self-critical, not self-examining. (It's probably why she's so darn happy!)

My wounds, on the other hand, are healed. They're now just scars that I can feel only if I go feeling for them. They're healed because I examined them and sutured them and dressed them. But they're still the scars of wounds, and they always will be. 

But I "live with" the memory of how those wounds were inflicted, you see. One never forgets that. In fact, you can't heal emotional wounds *unless* you can remember how you got them. 

If you, as you said, "spend a lot of time healing your wounds", then you must of necessity be able to recognise what caused them. To do that, you must be able to recall the pain that accompanied them. Otherwise, how would you know which past memories to bookmark for attention?


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## Mime

And as the hour is late here, I'll sign off for now.


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## Caribbean Man

Mime said:


> So, what did you find out, C-Man?


Really,I did not post any question on passive aggressive wife here.[TAM]
But I found this TAM website during my search.
However,I found out that there are varying degrees of passive aggressive people,and that sometimes everyone may display signs of such.
My wife is not " chronic" passive aggressive, but she displays some of it.[ as do most women].
I read where they said that it hhas something to do with physical / emotional abuse during childhood,where the child was prohibited from expressing [ justifiable ? ] anger, so that they chose to vent in that non confrontational, way.

It is not easy to live / work with some of these individuals because they can be deliberately obstructionist.

As for my wife,we talk about her childhood stuff,[ she came from a large family] and I try to deal with it from there. I am a dominant person so I try to lessen that a little bit too.

I think what she needs is room to express her fustrations without fear of being judged....

That is just in our case.

I hope it helped


----------



## Caribbean Man

Mime said:


> I*t's my wife who still has open wounds and is PA because of them. BUT she doesn't realise it. She avoids anything that might force her to stop and think about herself. Not self-aware, not self-critical, not self-examining. (It's probably why she's so darn happy!)*



:iagree:

Your situation is *EXACTLY LIKE MINE*!!!

These women are blissfully unaware of the amount of damage they are actually doing.
In the early stages of our business, wife's passive aggressiveness caused us to loose tens of thousands of dollars and many contracts. I was frustrated!! I had to literally take control of everything in the business, in order to save it......

You have to get her to deal with her past.
Also there may be thing you have to " concede " depending on her past, in order for her to feel comfortable dealing with it.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## trey69

Sounds like you are trying to hard to figure it out and her out. You will drive yourself crazy. If you are here to learn HOW to deal with it, take some suggestions others have said, read some books, etc. You keep stating you have and they were more geared towards men with PA. Look, PA is PA, whether its a man or woman, PA PEOPLE usually operate in the same manner. So instead of being worrying about coming across reading about PA men etc, replace it with the word PEOPLE, the info out there will tell you how to deal with PEOPLE being PA.


----------



## AFEH

Mime said:


> I think you and I are on different pages, AFEH. I want to know how to deal with my wife's PA, not my own. I have mine under control, or at least under constant surveilance. It doesn't cause problems for my wife. She's blissfully ignorant of it. And I think that's a good thing.
> 
> It's my wife who still has open wounds and is PA because of them. BUT she doesn't realise it. She avoids anything that might force her to stop and think about herself. Not self-aware, not self-critical, not self-examining. (It's probably why she's so darn happy!)
> 
> My wounds, on the other hand, are healed. They're now just scars that I can feel only if I go feeling for them. They're healed because I examined them and sutured them and dressed them. But they're still the scars of wounds, and they always will be.
> 
> But I "live with" the memory of how those wounds were inflicted, you see. One never forgets that. In fact, you can't heal emotional wounds *unless* you can remember how you got them.
> 
> If you, as you said, "spend a lot of time healing your wounds", then you must of necessity be able to recognise what caused them. To do that, you must be able to recall the pain that accompanied them. Otherwise, how would you know which past memories to bookmark for attention?


You've a ways to go as yet. My words will have serious meaning for you but that will come some time in the future. Good luck.


----------



## MarriedTex

Mime said:


> I think you and I are on different pages, AFEH. I want to know how to deal with my wife's PA, not my own. I have mine under control, or at least under constant surveilance. It doesn't cause problems for my wife. She's blissfully ignorant of it. And I think that's a good thing.
> 
> It's my wife who still has open wounds and is PA because of them. BUT she doesn't realise it. She avoids anything that might force her to stop and think about herself. Not self-aware, not self-critical, not self-examining. (It's probably why she's so darn happy!)
> 
> My wounds, on the other hand, are healed. They're now just scars that I can feel only if I go feeling for them. They're healed because I examined them and sutured them and dressed them. But they're still the scars of wounds, and they always will be.
> 
> But I "live with" the memory of how those wounds were inflicted, you see. One never forgets that. In fact, you can't heal emotional wounds *unless* you can remember how you got them.
> 
> If you, as you said, "spend a lot of time healing your wounds", then you must of necessity be able to recognise what caused them. To do that, you must be able to recall the pain that accompanied them. Otherwise, how would you know which past memories to bookmark for attention?


Mime, question for you. Does the prospect of dealing with wifey's passive agrgressive response influence the way you treat her? Do you walk on eggshells to not incur a PA episode from her? Do more chores to win approval and avert PA? In short, do you base your actions (all or in part) based on how you think she will react to you.

If you say "Yes" to any of these questions, then you are big, big part of the problem. By your actions you are training her to act in this way. 

The book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" describes husbands who attach their emotional hose to the reactions of their wife. Nice Guys - like me - do more harm than good by trying to pacify wife rather than focusing on leading the family and seeking our own level of happiness. This happiness can incorporate the wife but does not have to necessarily be centered on how she reacts to you.

If you are a "Nice Guy," you are feeding the negative loop here. The advice from the book is to focus on fixing yourself first, disconnect your emotional hose to her reactions to your behavior and begin leading. 

This may be off the mark, but it may worth exploring for you. Also a good forum associated with the Nice Guy theme. Should be able to find it with a quick Google search.

Good luck.


----------



## Mime

Caribbean Man said:


> However,I found out that there are varying degrees of passive aggressive people,and that sometimes everyone may display signs of such.
> My wife is not " chronic" passive aggressive, but she displays some of it.[ as do most women].


Yes, I agree that everyone uses it on occasion. In very small doses, it's just "being tactful". 

And I think you're absolutely right that most women are a little PA. I think it goes with the territory. Similarly, most women have a touch of "Small man syndrome" as well. Combine that with "Tall poppy" syndrome, and you have "Woman".  



> I read where they said that it hhas something to do with physical / emotional abuse during childhood,where the child was prohibited from expressing [ justifiable ? ] anger, so that they chose to vent in that non confrontational, way.
> 
> It is not easy to live / work with some of these individuals because they can be deliberately obstructionist.
> 
> As for my wife,we talk about her childhood stuff,[ she came from a large family] and I try to deal with it from there. I am a dominant person so I try to lessen that a little bit too.
> 
> I think what she needs is room to express her fustrations without fear of being judged....


Yes, I've read that, too. And my wife's childhood and early adult background definitely place her squarely in the PA camp.

I think you're right about giving her a safe place to express her frustrations. And I would do that in a heartbeat if she actually was frustrated. But the thing is, she's not frustrated, because she uses PA to relieve that tension. As a result, *I'm* the one who's frustrated! 

What I'm looking for is an effective way to make her aware that she's PA, and hopefully to address it herself. 

Thanks for your comments, C-Man.


----------



## loveisforever

Divorce process or divorce itself is the cure, unfortunately.


----------



## Mime

Caribbean Man said:


> [/B]
> :iagree:
> 
> Your situation is *EXACTLY LIKE MINE*!!!
> 
> These women are blissfully unaware of the amount of damage they are actually doing.
> In the early stages of our business, wife's passive aggressiveness caused us to loose tens of thousands of dollars and many contracts. I was frustrated!! I had to literally take control of everything in the business, in order to save it......
> 
> You have to get her to deal with her past.
> Also there may be thing you have to " concede " depending on her past, in order for her to feel comfortable dealing with it.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Yes, again, you nailed it. It's a minefield because I have to first find a way to even get her to admit there's an issue. So far, my attempts have all been construed as "criticism". So, obviously I'm approaching it from the wrong angle. 

And of course, if I never succeed in breaching the defences, I want to know how the heck a man can live a "normal" life with a wife whose own happiness depends upon constant "hit and run" tactics to relieve her anxieties or whatever.


----------



## loveisforever

AFEH said:


> This is a major difference between a PA and a non PA. In that non PAs don’t have wounds to “live with”!
> 
> Take a leg that’s been broken. It’s set and in time it heals. Once it’s healed the guy gets on with his life and forgets all about the pain associated with the break. That pain is long buried in the dusty area of his memory.
> 
> If he were to keep recalling the pain, he would keep the wound forever open in his mind such that he’d probably favour his leg and walk with a limp even though his leg is perfectly healthy.
> 
> It’s the same with emotional wounds. The non PA person will do everything he possibly can to heal his wound. Such that he never ever thinks of it again! He most certainly does not “live with” his wounds in any way whatsoever!
> 
> The PA never heals their wounds, so they forever "live with them".


Well Said.


----------



## Mime

trey69 said:


> Sounds like you are trying too hard to figure it out and her out. You will drive yourself crazy.


Well, I'm naturally curious about human nature anyway, so it's interesting in a way. But you're right - going crazy is a distinct possibility!



> If you are here to learn HOW to deal with it, take some suggestions others have said, read some books, etc.


Yes, books can be useful. But nothing replaces first-hand info from people with first-hand experience. 



> You keep stating you have and they were more geared towards men with PA. Look, PA is PA, whether its a man or woman, PA PEOPLE usually operate in the same manner. So instead of being worrying about coming across reading about PA men etc, replace it with the word PEOPLE, the info out there will tell you how to deal with PEOPLE being PA.


If it were as simple as that, I would already have an answer, Trey. But women don't operate exactly the same as men in any area.


----------



## Mime

AFEH said:


> You've a ways to go as yet. My words will have serious meaning for you but that will come some time in the future. Good luck.


I understand your words perfectly, AFEH. Clearly you're saying that *I'm* the one with the PA problem.

All I can say to that is, I can only deal with one problem at a time.


----------



## Mime

MarriedTex said:


> Mime, question for you. Does the prospect of dealing with wifey's passive agrgressive response influence the way you treat her? Do you walk on eggshells to not incur a PA episode from her? Do more chores to win approval and avert PA? In short, do you base your actions (all or in part) based on how you think she will react to you.


(Ah! This is good. Now we're getting somewhere. )

No, Tex, I don't do any of that. In fact, I've always taken a kind of laissez-faire attitude to our home life. We married fairly late in life, and so we didn't bring unrealistic expectations to the marriage. Our relationship isn't as "intense" as, say, a younger couple's would be. By rights, we should have absolutely no reason for conflicts at all, because we don't make too many demands on each other.

The reason that I think she's PA is that I keep finding evidence of it, every day. She'll "forget" things, and she'll misplace things and break things. She repeats "little mistakes" over and over. On the few occasions when I've told her that some of those little things annoy the hell out of me, I'll find that she's done them again the very next day.There's more to it than that, (I know *a lot* about her childhood), but you get the picture.

I figure she's either PA, or it's early-onset senility. 



> If you say "Yes" to any of these questions, then you are big, big part of the problem. By your actions you are training her to act in this way.


Exactly. That principle is something that can make a small problem into a huge one, I know. But no, I don't validate it. I do, however, give her the payoff that she's looking for, I guess, by raising it with her. But for some time now I've studiously ignored it. She keeps doing it, but I "don't notice" it. Hasn't changed anything, unfortunately. 



> The book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" describes husbands who attach their emotional hose to the reactions of their wife. Nice Guys - like me - do more harm than good by trying to pacify wife rather than focusing on leading the family and seeking our own level of happiness. This happiness can incorporate the wife but does not have to necessarily be centered on how she reacts to you.
> 
> If you are a "Nice Guy," you are feeding the negative loop here. The advice from the book is to focus on fixing yourself first, disconnect your emotional hose to her reactions to your behavior and begin leading.
> 
> This may be off the mark, but it may worth exploring for you. Also a good forum associated with the Nice Guy theme. Should be able to find it with a quick Google search.
> 
> Good luck.


That all makes perfect sense to me, Trey. I will look for that book. Sounds very interesting. Not that I'm a pacifying type, though. If anything, I like to confront people with my concerns and not beat about the bush. But I don't do that with my wife because, (a) she's a cryer, and I don't want to hurt her, and (b) I suspect it would only reinforce her PA tendencies. 

Thanks for your comments, Trey. Very helpful.


----------



## Mime

loveisforever said:


> Divorce process or divorce itself is the cure, unfortunately.


Divorce would be the solution for me, but not the "cure" for her. 

And I'm not unaware that PA is very often a result of painful experiences in one's early life. I wouldn't be comfortable ditching someone who's bad behaviour is not *deliberate*.

I wouldn't like it done to me, so I can hardly do it to her.


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## AFEH

Mime said:


> I understand your words perfectly, AFEH. Clearly you're saying that *I'm* the one with the PA problem.
> 
> All I can say to that is, I can only deal with one problem at a time.


You are truly rendered blind by the projections of your ego.


----------



## Mime

AFEH said:


> You are truly rendered blind by the projections of your ego.


Analysing other people isn't the answer to your problems. 

I see you've got 3,800+ posts, and you're still at this site... I'd say you still have issues, dude, and you need to look at them before you play amateur shrink with me. 


{There an Ignore button around here any place?}


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## Mime

@ Therealbrighteyes...

I'm extremely curious as to why you think you see *irony* in my asking my question, confidentially and anonymously, at an Internet site whose name is "Talk About Marriage"...


----------



## Uptown

Mime said:


> And I'm not unaware that PA is very often a result of painful experiences in one's early life. I wouldn't be comfortable ditching someone who's bad behaviour is not *deliberate*.


As the term is commonly used, Mime, behavior is not considered "passive aggressive" *unless it is deliberate*. Indeed, the deliberation is what accounts for the "aggressive" part of the term. That is, PA is a defense mechanism that allows people who aren't comfortable being openly aggressive get what they want by being indirectly aggressive, i.e., acting aggressively under the guise of still trying to please others.

In your posts, it is unclear whether you are convinced her "little mistakes" really are deliberate and intentional. You speculate, for example, that she might be suffering early-stage dementia. Another possibility is that, to escape hurtful feelings carried from childhood, she engages in frequent mini-daydreams (i.e., "dissociation") and thus really is not present much of the time.

On the other hand, if the "little mistakes" are spiteful, vindictive attempts to vent her childhood anger by projecting it onto you, then it is deliberate and thus constitutes classic PA behavior. My exW, for example, sometimes engaged in that type of behavior (in addition to open aggression). The best description of such PA behavior I've ever seen is therapist Shari Schreiber's article at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved. Most PA behavior, however, likely is not due to the borderline behavior my exW exhibits.


----------



## Mime

Uptown said:


> As the term is commonly used, Mime, behavior is not considered "passive aggressive" *unless it is deliberate*. Indeed, the deliberation is what accounts for the "aggressive" part of the term. That is, PA is a defense mechanism that allows people who aren't comfortable being openly aggressive get what they want by being indirectly aggressive, i.e., acting aggressively under the guise of still trying to please others.


Firstly, thank you for your response, Uptown. I was about to delete my membership here, having received little else but amateur pop psychology (AFEH) and hostile insinuations (therealbrighteyes). Thank you for your *helpful* reply.

I agree that PA behaviour is deliberate, especially the aggressive component obviously, inasmuch as it is within the power of the person to stop it *if they realise that they're doing it.* But when I said, "not deliberate" earlier, I meant behaviour that the person is not conscious of, and which is an acquired tension-releasing *habit*. 

I'm no amateur psychologist, but I do think the classic PA person is not fully aware that what they're doing has been contrived by their subconscious as a means of relieving the tension caused by some forgotten conflict. I think that's why, when a PA person is confronted with the evidence of their behaviour, they so adamantly deny it. I think they really do believe they're "innocent". 

It's a fine line. I'd hate to take precipitous action, such as divorce, only to discover that she had never been aware that what she was doing was PA. I think it's similar to some other forms of neurotic behaviour in that it exists to ease the person's pain, rather than to gratify a "cruel streak" in their nature. 



> In your posts, it is unclear whether you are convinced her "little mistakes" really are deliberate and intentional. You speculate, for example, that she might be suffering early-stage dementia.


I was being facetious there, Uptown. Some of the things she does, such as "forgetting" to replace things and "accidentally" dropping things, are similar to the classic symptoms of Alzheimer's.



> Another possibility is that, to escape hurtful feelings carried from childhood, she engages in frequent mini-daydreams (i.e., "dissociation") and thus really is not present much of the time.


Very possible! In fact, on occasions when her "mistakes" have driven me to lose my temper, I've actually said to her, "I don't know where your head *is*, sometimes!" She doesn't respond. Goes into passive-passive mode. It gets me nowhere.



> My exW, for example, sometimes engaged in that type of behavior (in addition to open aggression).


Well, you have my sympathy. My wife stops short of overt aggression. She's actually a very sweet-natured woman, in fact, and very well-liked. Although, come to think of it, she's always had a habit of "hitting". By that, I mean, playful hitting. It's not violent, but I must admit it's inappropriate at times. 



> The best description of such PA behavior I've ever seen is therapist Shari Schreiber's article at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved. Most PA behavior, however, likely is not due to the borderline behavior my exW exhibits.


Thanks for that. I'll certainly check it out. Any information is welcome! 

.


----------



## Mime

Whoa! Just began reading that article and already it's ticking all the boxes! And obviously there's a bit of the Rescuer in me! Who knew? lol.

Good stuff!


----------



## Uptown

> When I said, "not deliberate" earlier, I meant behaviour that the person is not conscious of, and which is an acquired tension-releasing habit.


Mime, my understanding is that PA behavior occurs when a person is angry and chooses to act on that anger -- in an underhanded, disguised manner. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never thought of such aggression as being the result of a "tension-releasing habit," which suggests that she is only burning off nervous energy or an uncomfortable feeling. 

I therefore believe that, if your W is PA, she is not simply at the mercy of a subconscious build up of tension. Rather, she is at fault for making bad choices. One such choice is her decision to act on the anger frequently and repeatedly in a way she knows harms you. Another bad choice is her decision to not seek therapy to learn how to control her anger in a mature manner -- instead of taking it out on you.

Further, let's consider the possibility that your W has moderate to strong aspects of a personality disorder (PD) -- not a full-blown disorder but, rather, only moderate to strong traits of one. If that is true, then you would be correct in concluding that she is being mislead at a subconscious level. The PD traits would be distorting her perception of your intentions and motivations, resulting in anger directed at you. 

Even in this case, however, she should not be given a free pass on PA behavior due to the existence of those subconscious distortions. As an adult, she must still be held fully responsible for her choices, i.e., how she chooses to act on those angry feelings. Again, she can choose to act on the anger in a mature manner instead of irritating the hell out of you with numerous childish slights. And she can choose to own up to her "oversensitivity" and misperceptions and get professional help. 

Hence, if you choose to give her a free pass -- instead of allowing her to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior -- you will be an "enabler" who destroys her only opportunities to confront her issue and learn how to grow up.


----------



## Mime

Uptown said:


> Even in this case, however, she should not be given a free pass on PA behavior due to the existence of those subconscious distortions. As an adult, she must still be held fully responsible for her choices, i.e., how she chooses to act on those angry feelings. Again, she can choose to act on the anger in a mature manner instead of irritating the hell out of you with numerous childish slights. And she can choose to own up to her "oversensitivity" and misperceptions and get professional help.
> 
> Hence, if you choose to give her a free pass -- instead of allowing her to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior -- you will be an "enabler" who destroys her only opportunities to confront her issue and learn how to grow up.


I hear you, Uptown. And I agree completely. 

I think I've given the impression that I'm looking for excuses, or at least a rationale, for her behaviour. I'm not. I started the thread in the hope of learning about any effective strategies that other people might have devised, for dealing with a PA spouse. I know that simply trying to adapt myself to it would be a fatal mistake.

You are particularly on the money when you say that her PA may be distorting her perceptions of my actions and behaviour. It most certainly does! I've often been stunned at the interpretations that she has put on my actions sometimes. It's as if she's looking at me but seeing someone else. 

I want to get as much information as possible about PA and its symptoms before I raise the subject with her. From experience I know that she has multiple defences in place for even the most minor encounter. So many, in fact, that I've had to withdraw and regroup, so to speak. So far, from what I've read here and elsewhere, her reactions confirm to me that it is genuine PA. But this being such a murky area, I want to be 100% certain of my facts. 

Meanwhile, at the moment, I'm finding that her PA isn't driving me _quite_ as crazy as it used to, simply because I'm recognising it for what it is, and I'm in the process of doing something about it. Positive action is a great stress-reliever! But it's only temporary, unfortunately. 

One thing I know for sure; giving free passes is the same as doing nothing at all. They would only validate her behaviour and set it in stone. 

Thanks again. 


.


----------



## Uptown

Mime said:


> You are particularly on the money when you say that *her PA* may be distorting her perceptions of my actions and behaviour.


Mime, what I actually said was that moderate to strong PD traits (not PA) may be distorting her perceptions of your intentions. This would be the case, for example, if she has moderate to strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). That's why I gave you a link to a description of the typical PA behavior exhibited by "quiet BPDers."

Significantly, I am not saying that she exhibits most of the red flags for BPD. I don't know that. Rather, I am only suggesting that it may be worth your while to read about BPD traits (and other PD traits) to see if they sound very familiar. In addition to the link I provided above, you may want to check out my description of typical BPD traits in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. It also would be prudent to see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.

Granted, your express goal -- as you made very clear above -- is not to figure your W out but, rather, to obtain tips on how best to respond to her PA behavior. The problem with that goal, however, is that the correct approach depends heavily on what it is that is causing the PA behavior. A response that is appropriate for an emotionally healthy W often will not work at all with a W having strong PD traits.


----------



## Mime

Uptown said:


> Mime, what I actually said was that moderate to strong PD traits (not PA) may be distorting her perceptions of your intentions. This would be the case, for example, if she has moderate to strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). That's why I gave you a link to a description of the typical PA behavior exhibited by "quiet BPDers."


Of course. So you did. Reading too fast... 



> Significantly, I am not saying that she exhibits most of the red flags for BPD. I don't know that. Rather, I am only suggesting that it may be worth your while to read about BPD traits (and other PD traits) to see if they sound very familiar. In addition to the link I provided above, you may want to check out my description of typical BPD traits in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. It also would be prudent to see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.


I read the first article that you linked to.... and then went on to read every one of them! Excellent stuff! I have to admit I saw _myself_ referenced in some of them. And yes, there is definitely a BPD component in my wife's everyday demeanour. What I got from the articles was that she is almost certainly a BPD type, and I suspect that she meets her needs by functioning as a PA. 



> Granted, your express goal -- as you made very clear above -- is not to figure your W out but, rather, to obtain tips on how best to respond to her PA behavior. The problem with that goal, however, is that the correct approach depends heavily on what it is that is causing the PA behavior. A response that is appropriate for an emotionally healthy W often will not work at all with a W having strong PD traits.


Well, yes, how to respond to her, but more especially how to motivate her to _just stop doing it_! 

The answer to that question does depend, as you say, on the root cause. I guess it's going to be a matter of trial and error. I have a few clues already, because I know a lot about her childhood and upbringing, and I think I could probably get to the crux pretty quickly, IF she doesn't stonewall the conversation, right away. 

The reference in the first article to men with a "Hero Complex" was interesting, not to say fascinating. I know I have that tendency. But I also know that my motivation in this case is purely self-serving. I'm of an age when I am satisfied if I merely solve a problem. I have no interest in being applauded for doing so.

In any case, it would be pointless to adopt a rescuer role purely for my personal gratification. I imagine Rescuer types are probably continually surprised to find that their rescues don't work. Of course they wouldn't work! Rescuers would have to be self-defeating, or they're out of a job!

So, no, I don't want to rescue my wife. She's a big girl now. Frankly, I just want to stop having to tear my hair out from frustration!


----------



## Uptown

Mime said:


> I have to admit I saw _myself_ referenced in some of them. And yes, there is definitely a BPD component in my wife's everyday demeanour.


That doesn't mean much. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is emotionally healthy. Like the other PDs, BPD is a "spectral" disorder, which means everyone has the traits to some degree. Indeed, at low levels, these traits are essential to our survival -- which is why they arise from primitive ego defenses. 

At issue, then, is whether your W has most of the BPD traits -- or those of another PD -- at such a strong level that they are distorting her perception of your intentions, causing her to lash out at you with the anger she's been carrying inside since early childhood. Significantly, if she has such strong traits, you are not CAUSING most of the anger. Instead, you are primarily TRIGGERING anger that already is there.


> The reference in the first article to men with a "Hero Complex" was interesting, not to say fascinating. I know I have that tendency.


So do I. The best article I've seen to explain how we learned (in childhood) to be excessive caregivers is Schreiber's article at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. The good stuff is in the last half of that article.


> But I also know that my motivation in this case is purely self-serving. I'm of an age when I am satisfied if I merely solve a problem. I have no interest in being applauded for doing so.


Yep, that's me too. We caregivers are the "fixers" of the world. We derive enormous personal satisfaction from helping others, regardless of whether it is appreciated or not. You are going to love the article I just mentioned. Schreiber explains why our desire to be _needed _(for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be _loved _(for the men we already are). That is why we regard "being applauded" as nice but totally unnecessary.


> What I got from the articles was that she is almost certainly a BPD type, and I suspect that she meets her needs by functioning as a PA.


If so, she is quite unusual. Only a small portion of BPDers (perhaps 10%) release their anger exclusively through PA behavior. Indeed, it is so uncommon that it is difficult to find much about it online. (That's why the first link I gave you was to Schreiber's article about quiet BPDers.) 

Nearly everything you'll find online about BPDers is about the loud ones, not the quiet ones. This is because the vast majority of BPDers act out with direct aggression when triggered. That is, a hallmark of BPD is temper tantrums consisting of strong verbal abuse -- and sometimes physical abuse.

By "BPDer" I mean "person with most BPD traits at such a strong level that they seriously undermine close long-term relationships by distorting her perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations." Significantly, strong BPD traits can have that detrimental effect even when they are well short of the diagnostic threshold for "having BPD," i.e., having full-blown BPD. Hence, given the way I define the term, most BPDers have moderate to strong BPD traits but do not "have BPD."


> Well, yes, how to respond to her, but more especially how to motivate her to _just stop doing it_!


If your W has strong BPD traits, the only way I know of giving her an incentive to change her offensive behavior is to allow her to suffer the logical consequences of that behavior. That is, you must establish strong personal boundaries as to what behavior is unacceptable -- and then enforce those boundaries by responding appropriately, depending on the level of the offense. Sadly, however, there is very little chance that will result in better behavior if she has strong BPD traits.

On the other hand, if she does not have strong BPD traits, what usually helps is for the two of you to enhance your communication skills by seeing a MC. That approach usually is a total waste of time with BPDers because their issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. Because BPDers lack self awareness, they protect their weak egos by projecting your accusations back onto you. 

Hence, any attempt to discuss BPD traits with a BPDer would almost certainly result in her being convinced that YOU are the one having such strong traits. This is one reason that therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her pattern of behavioral traits.


> I know a lot about her childhood and upbringing.


If she has strong BPD traits, there is a 70% chance that she had a very difficult early childhood. I say this because a recent study (pub. 2008) found that 70% of those diagnosed with BPD reported having been abused or abandoned in childhood.

I remain skeptical, however, that you are dealing with strong BPD traits because you've said very little to indicate you are. Of the nine traits, you've not discussed any of them. Moreover, you never said she experienced abuse or abandonment in childhood (and, even if you had, most abused children do not develop BPD). 

Remember, I raised the chance of her being a "quiet BPDer" as only a possibility that may warrant your spending time to read about it -- to see if it sounds familiar. It also could be worth your time to read about Avoidant PD traits to see if they sound familiar. Did you follow the link I provided above to Maybe's thread, where I describe typical BPD traits? If so, do most of them seem to describe your W's behavior?


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## Mime

Uptown said:


> You are going to love the article I just mentioned. Schreiber explains why our desire to be _needed _(for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be _loved _(for the men we already are). That is why we regard "being applauded" as nice but totally unnecessary.


You were right about that! I think I'm learning more about myself than about her! That's okay. I can use it. 



> If so, she is quite unusual. Only a small portion of BPDers (perhaps 10%) release their anger exclusively through PA behavior. Indeed, it is so uncommon that it is difficult to find much about it online. (That's why the first link I gave you was to Schreiber's article about quiet BPDers.)


Yes, and after reading that "Waif" article, I've had to rethink my "diagnosis", haha, of my wife. Her behaviour meets the criteria in only three respects - the lack of empathy, the hypochondria, and the histrionics. She often astounds me with her apparently complete inability to put herself in the other person's shoes. And this applies to her women friends as well as to me. Her hypochondria is a standing joke in her family! lol. Every nervous tic is evidence of a brain tumour; every skin blemish is an incipient melanoma. It would be funny if it weren't so tiresome.



> ... the vast majority of BPDers act out with direct aggression when triggered. That is, a hallmark of BPD is temper tantrums consisting of strong verbal abuse -- and sometimes physical abuse.


This is interesting. She's not physically abusive, but she does have a habit of "hitting". By that, I mean she will often hit or pinch me. She does it in a "playful" way, but it always seems inappropriate to the circumstances. She has told me that she gets the "urge" to pinch and hit. I've always seen this as merely a female eccentricity, (little girls love to hit little boys and then run away, haha. Women love to get under a guy's skin), but sometimes I wonder about it. 



> I remain skeptical, however, that you are dealing with strong BPD traits because you've said very little to indicate you are. Of the nine traits, you've not discussed any of them. Moreover, you never said she experienced abuse or abandonment in childhood.
> 
> Remember, I raised the chance of her being a "quiet BPDer" as only a possibility that may warrant your spending time to read about it -- to see if it sounds familiar. It also could be worth your time to read about Avoidant PD traits to see if they sound familiar. Did you follow the link I provided above to Maybe's thread, where I describe typical BPD traits? If so, do most of them seem to describe your W's behavior?


Yes, I have to admit, after reading "My list of Hell", that if she does have strong BPD tendencies, she manages to conceal them very well! But then, that's not typical of the type, is it. Many of the descriptors for "Waif" match her perfectly, though.

She was never abandoned, but she was badly treated in her childhood years by her father, who gave her cruel nicknames. She told me he also kicked her on one occasion. Her mother was devoutly religious, and made sure she was active in the local church. She says she loved the social interactions in that community, but abandoned religious beliefs at about the time she "discovered boys", (her words).

I've read up on "Avoidant PD", but if she suffers from it, she hides it very well! She's extremely sociable and gregarious. In fact, it seems to me that she can't go a day without some social connection of some kind. That's my subjective view, of course, but it's supported by my observations. 

If anything, *I'm* the hermit of the family!

I have to say, Uptown, that if you're not a professional counsellor, you should be! I guess because of your own experience, you probably know as much about this subject as any trained psychologist!


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## Mime

Uptown, further to my previous comments, I can add something very significant that I've learned since reading the material in those links.

My wife exhibits ALL the traits of Histrionic Personality Disorder! 

No question in my mind. 

Whether or not it is comorbid with PA, I don't yet know. But I am vigourously pursuing this avenue now.

Man, I wish I had discovered this site years ago..... :slap:


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## Uptown

> Her behaviour meets the criteria in only three respects - the lack of empathy, the hypochondria, and the histrionics.


That sounds more like traits of Histrionic PD. Or she may simply have strong traits of PA disorder, as you initially suspected. As I said above, you are not describing the classic traits of BPD. Interestingly, both of those disorders are being downplayed this May when the DSM5 is released. They are being relegated to a residual category called PDTS (PD Trait Specified).


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## Mime

Looks like we're definitely on the same page now, Uptown!

Many thanks for pointing me in the right direction. :smthumbup:


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## Uptown

Mime said:


> My wife exhibits ALL the traits of Histrionic Personality Disorder! No question in my mind.


LOL, we both had the same thought! Our messages just crossed each other. Keep in mind that, although HPD is being eliminated in DSM5 as a separate category, it will survive in actual clinical practice because it is being relegated to the residual category of PDTS, as I mentioned above. 

The psychiatric community is a fractious group having disparit views on many issues. Because the revision of the DSM is highly political and much blood is left on the ground when it is published, the committee puts the most contentious "disorders" in a residual category. That way, clinical psychologists can continue to use them.


> I have to say, Uptown, that if you're not a professional counsellor, you should be! I guess because of your own experience, you probably know as much about this subject as any trained psychologist!


Mime, thanks for the kind words but, no, I am not a psychologist. My only experience is taking care of a bipolar-I foster son for 30 years and a BPDer exW for 15 years. 

Following our breakup 5 years ago, I've been reading about BPD so as to be able to point young people (both BPDers and Nons, who are trapped in toxic relationships) to the excellent online resources that are freely available. It therefore is prudent for you to confirm your suspicions by seeing a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two on your own -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.


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## Mime

Uptown said:


> LOL, we both had the same thought! Our messages just crossed each other. Keep in mind that, although HPD is being eliminated in DSM5 as a separate category, it will survive in actual clinical practice because it is being relegated to the residual category of PDTS, as I mentioned above.
> 
> The psychiatric community is a fractious group having disparit views on many issues. Because the revision of the DSM is highly political and much blood is left on the ground when it is published, the committee puts the most contentious "disorders" in a residual category. That way, clinical psychologists can continue to use them.


 Great minds think alike.

I can well imagine that the field of psychiatric diagnosis would be a minefield for its practitioners! As a layman, I'm still confident that my, (that is, _our_) conclusions regarding the phenomena I'm witnessing at home are correct. It's definitely a good start, anyway!



> Mime, thanks for the kind words but, no, I am not a psychologist. My only experience is taking care of a bipolar-I foster son for 30 years and a BPDer exW for 15 years.
> 
> Following our breakup 5 years ago, I've been reading about BPD so as to be able to point young people (both BPDers and Nons, who are trapped in toxic relationships) to the excellent online resources that are freely available. It therefore is prudent for you to confirm your suspicions by seeing a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two on your own -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.


Sounds like a plan, Uptown. Once I've gathered as much background on the specific subject as I can, I'll do that. 

I trust you've been rewarded for your kind efforts with the gratitude of those others whom you've helped, as you've helped me. :toast:


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## Mime

Been reading through all of Schreiber's essays. Particularly the one dealing with the "caregiver" personality.

I wonder how she knew so much about me...?  Lol!!


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## trey69

I think it was Jamison on the very first page who stated she may have a undiagnosed mental disorder to begin with, so is there anyway you think you could get her to seek a therapist to see if they feel the same? If a diagnoses is made then meds and psychotherapy would be in order for her, and counseling for you.


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## Mime

trey69 said:


> I think it was Jamison on the very first page who stated she may have a undiagnosed mental disorder to begin with, so is there anyway you think you could get her to seek a therapist to see if they feel the same? If a diagnoses is made then meds and psychotherapy would be in order for her, and counseling for you.


Not as long as her ass points to the ground, Trey!! 

Even if she could be persuaded to see a therapist, I doubt she'd get much benefit from the exchange. Too easily bored. Her favourite word is "exciting". Her most often expressed reason for liking a thing is that it's "exciting". Everything's got to be exciting. The idea of sitting still and listening to a dry recitation of mental disorders would put her to sleep. And she's not an introspective girl, in any case. 

She would be irritated at any suggestion that she has a "mental problem", because that would mean she would have to slow down for a second and address it. 

I'll be happy if I can just get her to stay put for long enough to listen to what I would tell her.

She has all the signs of a histrionic personality disorder. That's what I'll be trying to discuss with her, initially. I think the trick will be to talk about it in such a way that she'll see something exciting about fixing it. 

Meanwhile, I'll keep my own counsel, as the saying goes. And I'll keep coming here for the great support. 

Thanks.


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## Jamison

Mime said:


> I'll be happy if I can just get her to stay put for long enough to listen to what I would tell her.


What were you going to tell her? Better yet, How were you going to tell her? You could always practice on us here!


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## Mime

Haha, so far I haven't run across anyone here who could stand in for my wife! She's a rare one, as they say! 

It won't really be too difficult to get her talking about histrionic behaviour because it's come up in our conversations before. She's told me how, in her past, she's become so excited about some pending event that she's literally been sick! And this was in her adult past! 

She suffers from chronic insomnia. But she sits up every night till midnight watching whatever is on TV. Says she won't sleep if she goes to bed any earlier - yet she struggles to stay awake the whole time she's glued to the TV...

So there are a couple of openings for starting a conversation re HPD. I don't know exactly what I'll be saying, of course, but I'll have to do it in a way that'll maintain her interest somehow.


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## Katiebird

Mime: I am still a little confused. I was the OP in the "Passive Aggressive or am I crazy" post. I have scanned through - and admit I have not read thoroughly all of the posts in this thread. My question is about specifics. What are some examples of your wife's PA behaviour? What is the "crazy making" behaviour that your wife is exhibiting?


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## Mime

Katiebird said:


> Mime: I am still a little confused. I was the OP in the "Passive Aggressive or am I crazy" post. I have scanned through - and admit I have not read thoroughly all of the posts in this thread. My question is about specifics. What are some examples of your wife's PA behaviour? What is the "crazy making" behaviour that your wife is exhibiting?


Katie, believe it or not, I've/we've fixed the problem in the past week. 

I was directed to Shari Schrieber's blog. I read the one about Waifs and Heroes, and then I read the rest of her articles.

I have to say, almost everything I read made a good impression. Especially the fact that some of the traits she described happened to fit my own personality as much as my wife's. Matter of fact, it was too accurate for me to deny.

So, I more or less swung my focus on to myself, got very absorbed in learning, and I wasn't noticing my wife's behaviour at all. She noticed that, and, long story short, she suddenly said how happy she was that I wasn't being so grumpy. I told her that I had been too preoccupied finding out some hard truths about myself, and that, in turn, led to us talking about PA, and BPD, and god knows what else. 

The old cliche that "It's all about communication" is very true. But you have to know what you're talking about, too! I've learned something new, and that's always a good thing.

Very productive place, this.

Now, I'm only sticking around to annoy Football. LOL!! 

Thanks for your interest, KatieB.


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