# After 20 years I'm afraid we're falling apart...



## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

I've never done this before, but I have to vent. My husband and I don't go out much...maybe two to four times a year, but in the last two years, every time we go out, he ends up flirting with all the woman and basically ignoring me. We recently went out with one of his golf buddies and his wife. They are a younger couple. It started out to be a really fun time, dinner was great, but we went to a pub afterwards and things got a little out of control. My husband was dirty dancing with his buddies wife, flirting with her, obviously very attracted to her and vice versa. I went to the restroom and found him sitting beside of her and I was sitting beside of his buddie. This seemed odd to me, but I didn't really think anything of it, we were still facing each other. Then we started fooling around with the ice in my water and my husband took a piece of ice and rubbed it under her shirt on her breast, his buddy in turn did the same to me...I was shocked!!! I let it all sink in and then asked my husband if we could leave. We had an awful time after that...I was devastated, and he was upset with me for letting it bother me. We finally got thru it and he asked me to go to a golfing picnic at this guys house. I agreed thinking that we would just leave if I felt uncomfortable. I tried for his sake. I was uncomfortable almost immediately and kept trying to get him to leave..he and this couple kept delaying me...It is so obvious what is going on...but I just can't believe it...my husband followed her around all evening and his buddy tried to connect with me several times in conversation, but I was too worried about my husband and his wife to even hear what anyone was saying. She would go into the house to use the bathroom and all the sudden my husband would have to use the bathroom at the same time. I eventually started going to the rest room with him every time. Several couples were sitting around the campfire. I was sitting by my husband, the other woman on the other side of him and then her husband. I get up and the buddy changed seats with my husband. She was leaning towards/against my husband all evening, finally I convinced him to leave. I can't even begin to tell you all the other inappropriate things that were done and said. When we got home, my husband was all "sexed" up. We had sex then and then again in the morning and all I kept thinking was that she had him all flustered and I was his outlet. I've told him that "swinging" is out of the question, not to even consider it...but I think they all think they can convince me otherwise. I love my husband very much and can't imagine living without him, but I don't think I'm enough for him anymore!! It's killing me!!!


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

The couple is definitely trying to move you into some sort of sexual encounter. You need to make your husband understand this is outside your boundaries and you will not tolerate it. Use this conversation to discuss your sex life as a couple to see it he is wanting some spice in it. If he does and you are comfortable with some of his ideas, try them and see if it helps you both to be happier in your intimacy. Stick to your guns and don’t be pressured into something you are uncomfortable with. Also make sure he understands that you expect his pants to be zipped when he is not with you.


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

Thank you, that is great advice. We could definitely use some spice in our sex life, I will ask him to see what he says. I won't succumb to their pressure, I am way too possessive of him to share him with anyone, I just wish he felt the same about me. They were planning an overnight golf outing to a nice resort/spa, which sounded awesome at first, but last night I told him that I couldn't go, made up an excuse about having to use my money on school clothes for our son. I'm afraid to tell him how hurt I was because the last time I told him he ended up eventually telling me that we should probably just end our marriage. Both of these weekends have really blew my self-esteem out the window!!! I'm 39 and overweight (trying to lose weight). This girl is younger and sexier!!! Anyways, he said he wouldn't go if I didn't, but he's still going to be in the tournament which means there is a possibility that he will be with them for some time??? Should I go just to make sure he doesn't screw up??? There is also a possibility that they would convince him to stay without me. It would be an overnight stay at a cabin???


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

If telling him that his actions are hurting you and he reacts by stating that maybe the marriage should end, then there are deeper problems here then just a desire for something new sexually. I’m sorry you have suffered in your self esteem. I can understand how hurtful this could be. Work on your communication with him to help improve the marriage and work on your weight for your own self esteem and health. It won’t hurt the sex life either.  If you don’t feel you can trust him on this trip then you should attend with him. Make sure you make the ground rules clear to him before you go. No flirting, no swapping, no fooling around. If he is pushing your boundaries you need to make it clear to him you will not tolerate it.


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

I know there are deeper problems. I have been ate up with jealousy due to his behavior and my own lack of self confidence due to my weight problem. He golfs almost every evening and either works on the weekends or golfs. Doesn't spend much time at home, just after dark. Doesn't do much with me, other than to go to our sons sporting events. I question him on his whereabouts or ask him who he golfed with, etc. and he gets very defensive and accuses me of not trusting him. His big statement these days is that he never does anything right!! A couple of times I have even checked up on him by driving to the golf course and such. I've never caught him at anything, however, I did ask/tell him not to golf with a local "very cute" divorced woman that we know (that I have witnessed him flirting with) and he was golfing with her and another man just a few days later!!! My husband is very self centered and OCD. I knew this when I married him. But he can be such a wonderful man/husband/lover and father. I have always been very proud of him. He is reaching mid life (45) and I am really worried that this is a factor. I have heard so many horror stories about men leaving their wives of 20+ years for a 25 year old!!! I will be devastated if that happens to me!! Not only because I will lose the man I love, but also because I cannot take that kind of rejection.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

tnt20years said:


> This girl is younger and sexier!!!


Younger maybe, but sexier? That is up to you... My wife of 46 is so damn sexy in bed, I would not even dream of looking at a younger woman!

If he has OCD, he may never be totally happy, but you can manage things to a large extent. If you start giving him a really sexy time in bed, he might realise he is spending far too much time on the golf course. At the risk of upsetting a large number of people on this site, I have to say, golf is the single biggest sex killer I know. If I was a dictator, I would ban it! 

If you want to go down the spicy route, here's a thought. It's all about enthusiasm and what your own fantasies can come up with. Start thinking about sexy stuff, and if it helps get dirty in your mind. I say "if it helps" because, to me sex is not dirty, so that does little for me, but for a lot of people, the thought of the forbidden drives them crazy with lust. If that works for you, then go with the flow. If not, try another tack. I gave a method for sounding things out on another thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/1504-weight-ruining-marriage-4.html#post12557
See post #52.

I would not try to move too fast too soon. A lot of guys complain about lack of spice and then when they get it on a plate they run away! So you have to turn up the heat slowly, while remembering to add the spice and stir!


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

I am very interested in trying some things out, but you are right, he is used to being the aggressor, and he may be, uhh, "frightened". He has even ignored my advances in the past, looking at me like I'm crazy. But I'll try to be creative. Just last week I was looking for some things to add to our romance. It's obvious to me that his biggest turn on is flirting with other women and their reactions to him. But I can't encourage or allow this because it may lead to something he can't get himself out of. I still feel unsure that this will help him stop the way he is acting, but it's worth a try!! He couldn't wait to get home after the party and try something that his buddies wife was bragging about. Any advice on how to get that crap out of my head...her leaning against him with her hand lord only knows where...it was too dark to see??? And him following her around like she was in heat??? UGHHH


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

It sounds like your husbands buddy and wife are swingers and they thought that they could convince you to be as well. Good for you at noticing it and standing by your morals and drawing boundries.

draconis


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

I tried last night and failed miserably...waited until he got home...filled up the jacuzzi with lots of bubbles, lit the candles, got in and called him into the bathroom and got shot down!!! What husband wouldn't get off on seeing his wife in a jacuzzi full of bubbles??? Mine I guess...I really think I've completely lost him...I was mortified to tears!!! Still hurting from it...

I really think it is hopeless!!! I can't take the hurt much more!!


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Personally, I would bring up the jacuzzi incident and say, if you are going to reject me every single time, I'm am going to be considering my options to ditch you and find someone who appreciates me.

This might be his wake-up call. But you can't dial that number unless you can accept "go ahead, punk, make my day", in your ear as his answer.


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

I've tried that angle in the past and usually he doesn't seem to care much. The un-caring part of him is the most hurtful. He's fine as long as there isn't any conflict....let there be conflict and he puts up the un-caring personality. I really think he would be fine if I left and I'm the type that if I said it, I'd have to carry through with it.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

OCD people sometimes need things spelling out to them. This need not involve conflict. Just say I want these things (x,y,z) to happen, or I'm very unhappy. What are you willing to do about it?

But yes, if you make the ultimate threat, you must be prepared to carry through with it, otherwise it's just a cruel game.

However, it might be you have not learned to speak his internal language. Dr. Tracy is an expert on that one: "Ask Dr. Tracy" Love Library

After I read this, the penny really dropped for me. My wife is visual, and I am audio tactile. All I had to do to get her to fancy me more was replace my beard with designer stubble, and loose a few pounds. All the talking was useless. 

All she has to do to rev me up is touch me or say something sexy. If she dresses up, it's nice, but it does not really get to me the way touching and talking do. The good thing about this is that, I will still love her when she is 99.  However, she does happen to be pretty anyhow.

Dr. Tracy's site is not always the easiest to navigate, but it is well worth putting the time in. Each month she picks 3 emails to answer as an agony aunt. I have read the entire archive. Very useful.

See Dr. Tracy's Archives


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## Triton (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm with MT


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

MT is sooo right. I have read through Dr. Tracy's information. My husband is very visual...and as I said earlier, I am overweight. Although, he has told me that he is still attracted to me when I asked. He has never came out and said he thought I was fat, but.....I'm sure he has thought it. When I exercise, he always encourages it, which is fine with me. Any kind of motivation is always good. He loves to look at and flirt with young pretty women. I've overheard him telling women that they look nice and things like that. He's a very sweet man, but he hasn't shown me that side in a long time. Guess he doesn't want to given me that kind of attention in a while. He's a stickler against giving false positives. If he doesn't think I look good, then he's not going to tell me that I do. I don't think I'll confront him any time soon about last night, until I cool off for a couple of days...his communication skills are horrible. He only hears the negative, so I have to be really careful how I word things. Maybe I'm just blowing things out of proportion...I tend to do that...maybe I just need to come to terms with my jealousy and lack of self-confidence first and the rest will fall into place. I have lost almost 10 pounds in the past few weeks!!! Only 30 or 40 more to go!!! UGHHH


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

TNT - Loosing the weight is a good thing anyway, for YOU. I have been jogging round the park every day for 2 weeks, and for the first time I noticed that I am starting to look trimmer.

I am only 41 and not in that bad a shape, but I saw a picture of a guy of 50 that was ripped, and I thought, I gotta get some of that!

When I realised that my wife was into the visual, it gave me more of a motivation to keep as fit as possible. 

For me, tone of voice and touch is more important.

Anyway you need to get inside your man's head somehow, don't let the jacuzzi affair put you off.


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

I'm not too confident to approach him again, which pretty much leaves adding any spice to our sex lives out, doesn't it? In fact, if he approaches me, I'm tempted to shut him down like he did me!!! I thought maybe he would think about what happened and make up for it last night, but he didn't...I got nothing!! You know we used to tell each other we loved each other every night...but we quit doing that too. I'm soooo frustrated!!!


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

tnt-

You have to decide what you want. If you want sex, then fantasising about shutting him down is not going to get you anywhere. You need to get clear with yourself what you want out of life. Everything else will follow from that.

One thing, I would like to know is, can you speak more about what form his OCD takes, and how severe it is?


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

Unfortunately, we are getting a little side tracked. It's not so much that I want sex...it's more that I am trying to get his mind off other things (women, golf, etc.). The suggestion given was that maybe I needed to spice up our sex life in order to do that. Therefore, that is what I tried to do, and I failed miserably. Oh well, I guess I'll just try to exist...take care of myself and my kids and whatever else happens, just happens...

I hoped it would help to get this out of my system, but it just seems to make me dwell on it more...maybe this wasn't such a good idea afterall.

I think I will try to approach his friends wife and question her or feel her out and see if she will come clean with me??? Do you all think that would be a good idea or not???


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Tell us the truth. Why do you stay with him?


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

MarkTwain said:


> Tell us the truth. Why do you stay with him?



Good question.

draconis


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

I'm still with him because I'm still very much in love with him. We've raised two gorgeous sons together. He's the only man I've been with since I was 17 years old. I still get butterflies in my stomach when I think about him. He's great in between the bad times...which like I said aren't very often...it's just conflict he cannot deal with...if I confront him about something he processes it totally opposite of how I do...??? I have just as many reasons to stay as I do to go...I'm not a quitter, I'm a fighter...I have seen so many divorces in my family (four brothers) that I don't want to have to go through it...I guess I could go on an on, but the bottom line is this:

I wanted to get another opinion from this forumn on how to deal with him. Because I obviously have not been dealing with him correctly, or else he wouldn't be doing it still, right? Anyways, last night was a decent night, so hopefully something is hitting home with him...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

tnt20years said:


> Unfortunately, we are getting a little side tracked. It's not so much that I want sex...it's more that I am trying to get his mind off other things (women, golf, etc.). The suggestion given was that maybe I needed to spice up our sex life in order to do that. Therefore, that is what I tried to do, and I failed miserably. Oh well, I guess I'll just try to exist...take care of myself and my kids and whatever else happens, just happens...


You are not even started. Don't give up so easily. Also that whole paragraph smacks of low self esteem and self pity. Don't settle. Never surrender!



tnt20years said:


> I hoped it would help to get this out of my system, but it just seems to make me dwell on it more...maybe this wasn't such a good idea afterall.


So you want to just sit on all your emotion until it re-surfaces again in a few moths or years even more powerful than before?



tnt20years said:


> I think I will try to approach his friends wife and question her or feel her out and see if she will come clean with me???  Do you all think that would be a good idea or not???


Now is not the time... work on yourself first.


I asked you before about his OCD. This might be a huge clue, I have a touch of this myself...


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

> if I confront him about something he processes it totally opposite of how I do...???


Can you give an example of this I think I understand where you are coming from right now.

Rememberthere are 1001 ways to communicate a point and it is all in the approach. When I was first with my wife I could be agreeing with her and she would think I wasn't. I had to find a better way to talk to her even though I can talk to anyone else the way I always have. Some people need to be communicated to in certain ways.

draconis


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

About the OCD. It's always been something. At first he raced motorcycles, then he worked all hours of the day, then it was NASCAR, then he was obsessed with our neighbors, hung out with them all the time, even went to their house after work instead of coming home (drinking beer and hanging out), then it was coaching sports, he's been OCD about hunting and fishing, now it is golf and women. There has always been some sort of obsession with him.

OCD is my diagnosis of him. His mother was OCD about cleaning and cooking. Does this make sense?


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

OK guys, I confronted my husband on the spa/resort stay last night, (because he still hasn't called it off with them). It was the right moment. I began by asking him if he wanted to go. Then I asked him if they wanted to switch partners if he would do it. He said not if I didn't want to. I asked him if he thought that is what they wanted to do. He said yes he did. I asked him why he thought this and he said his friend had asked him about it. He wouldn't give me a straight answer on when this conversation took place, but I take it that it was after the night at the pub and the "ice" incident. 

I asked him why he continued to want to "hang out" with them knowing that this is what they wanted. He said something about we didn't have to do anything if we didn't want to. I asked him if he wanted to have sex with her and he answered that he would have if I would have agreed to it. 

I asked him why he wanted to have sex with another woman and he threw the "threesome" incident we had 8 years ago in and said since we had done that - that he thought it would be OK to do this. Even though I told him after that foolish drunken night that I never wanted to do that again and I wanted to forget it even happened. 

I broke down and told him that it was breaking my heart that he wanted to have sex with another women and that he wanted me to have sex with another man. I kept asking him why and he just kept saying it was a stupid thing and that he shouldn't have went there. He says he is going to call them and tell them that we don't want to be a part of it. And then his famous saying "It's done and over with and there is nothing we can do about it now!!" 

He admitted to me that she was feeling his leg beside the fire that night....just the side of it....I asked him why he allowed her to do that, knowing that I didn't want any part of that??? He didn't have an answer. Just said it was done and he couldn't take it back. 

I'm dying here guys!!! I think I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown...I can't stop shaking!!! I didn't sleep at all last night...I had to get out of the house, so I went for a ride and screamed and cried my eyes out....when I got back to the house and 1:30 am he was sound asleep in the bedroom??? I tried to sleep on the couch. 

He says he cares about me, he says he loves me, but does he??? Nothing he does shows it....sad part is that we had a really nice weekend....we were really starting to connect again....and now all hell opens up again!!! At least he was honest this time and admitted to things, although I don't know if he has told me everything. 

I am going to make him call them tonight in front of me and I am going to listen on the other phone to verify what is being said. I told him I may not be able to get over this...and I really don't know if I can??? He never went though with anything , but he was definitely willing to....what should I do???????????????


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I think his nonchalant behavior is probably due to him not thinking he has done anything wrong (ie he didn't 'do' anything with her) On the plus side, he did seem to open up and you were both able to talk openly about what's been going on. The less calm you react, the less likely he will be to open up with you.

It sounds like he got caught up in the excitement of this whole thing, but he didn't initiate it or go through with anything so maybe this is the time to open up the dialog on what might make things more exciting for the two of you....alone.

It is disturbing that whenever he does something that hurts you he responds with well, what's done is done...he might need a talk on boundaries so he knows well in advance what will hurt you and has a clear understanding of what you intend to do if he disrespects you.


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

Thank you Swedish. Could you please give me suggestions about the talk on boundaries? You would think after 20 years of marriage that he would know me better, but I've come to realize that after 20 years I don't exactly know my own husband very well.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

tnt20years said:


> Thank you Swedish. Could you please give me suggestions about the talk on boundaries? You would think after 20 years of marriage that he would know me better, but I've come to realize that after 20 years I don't exactly know my own husband very well.


My husband had an emotional affair last year and he was having trouble verbalizing how it got to that point (they work together) 'it just happened. once she initiated he could not stop it' and therefore was not comfortable in saying it wouldn't happen again...this was our crossroads because I was not comfortable leaving it here. 

My view as far as boundaries was that as long as whatever he was saying/doing he would be comfortable saying/doing with me standing right next to him.

He decided not to discuss personal issues with any women at work because he felt that once a personal friendship developed with a woman it had the potential to get out of control. He really felt that he meant his vows when he said them and then broke them and although he never intended to let that happen again, he never intended to let that happen in the first place so it was difficult for him to sort out in his mind.

In the end, the most comfort I have in beginning to trust again lies within the changes we have both made in our marriage. We put it as our top priority and have become much closer than ever before. We each had to make changes individually and as a couple and he'd be crazy to think about straying now  as would I


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

swedish is right, but if boundaries are like fences, then you might find that if you add any more, you have everything fenced of nicely, and even less connection.



> He never went though with anything , but he was definitely willing to....what should I do???????????????


I shudder to answer this question. You are in for a tough time whatever you do. No wonder you're shaking. It is all about boundaries I suppose. People who swing have no boundaries in certain areas, whereas you seem to have these boundaries in place. And I see that as a good thing.

If I were in your position, I would not even dream of giving into the husband swapping unless I got a huge amount of concessions in return. Of course, if hubby has set his heart on doing this, he will probably agree to anything - but will he keep his promises afterwards? Only you can guess at that.

If you turn him down point blank, you are probably going to have one unhappy hubby on your hands - silly boy - so you might do well to offer sweeteners, I have no idea what these could be, but who knows.

The trouble with OCD people is they need saving from themselves. It's like when a baby picks up a shiny piece of broken glass - you don't try and grab the glass out of their hands, you dangle something even more interesting in front of them, and they drop the glass.

However, what is interesting is that, whereas he won't talk about certain things with you, he is well into talking about swapping, so you might be able to start all sorts of conversations on that topic, and then invade HIS boundaries a little, and talk about what YOU want.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> swedish is right, but if boundaries are like fences, then you might find that if you add any more, you have everything fenced of nicely, and even less connection.


I see what MT is saying and one thing you stated was that you were going to demand that your husband call this couple and listen on the other line. I worry that this (obviously will be uncomfortable for your husband) might make him regret being open and honest with you (I should have kept it to myself and everything would have been fine)

The thing with boundaries to me is not a dictatorship but a compromise that you both agree will result in a stronger marriage if it's put into place. One of mine is monogamy and we had that discussion as well...it is a deal-breaker for me but if he could not imagine 'just lil o'l me' till death do us part then I would rather have him move on and find his happiness...I can't force him to love me or make him happy but showing him that I truly care about him and his feelings sure helps


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

swedish said:


> one thing you stated was that you were going to demand that your husband call this couple and listen on the other line. I worry that this (obviously will be uncomfortable for your husband) might make him regret being open and honest with you (I should have kept it to myself and everything would have been fine)


Yes. The skilful negotiator relishes every opportunity to "talk", and an outright "NO" usually ends the possibility of conversation. So I would keep it hanging for longer. But I am devious like that...


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## honey28 (Aug 1, 2008)

sorry i don't have much advice, but maybe this is some sort of mid-life crisis or your husband has a need for spontanaeity (sp), be honest with him about your feelings and maybe you two can try some new things like role play or new adventures or something to create some spice w/out swinging. good luck


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

Well, I did insist that he call his buddy. I told him I thought he owed me that much. At first he said he would talk to him when they went golfing again. But I told him I had to hear it in order to believe him. He wouldn't however let me listen, he said I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut..he's probably right. I instantly didn't like how he worded it. This is how he told his buddy: "Hey ___ this is ___, hey "she" wanted me to call you and tell you that the thing we talked about, that's not going to happen, OK? "She" wanted to hear me tell you that." It was obvious that his buddy just agreed, there wasn't any pauses in between. Then my husband immediately changed the subject and talked about the next golf tournament. The conversation only lasted about 3 minutes total. 

I didn't like it that he made it sound like it was all me. I wish he would have said that "we" decided that it wasn't going to happen!!! But I guess I should be content, or should I? I told him what I thought and that I wasn't comfortable with him associating with him anymore. He said his buddy was a good guy and he enjoyed his company. I said if his buddy was a good guy he wouldn't be asking to f*** me!!! 

He was definitely upset with me afterwards, I took his new game away from him I suppose. He went outside and I followed him. I asked him if he was sorry for hurting me and pointed out that he hadn't even apologized for hurting me. He apologized with his back to me, which really upset me and I asked him to look me in the eye, which he did. I'm not sure what I saw there??? I think it was more irritation than remorse. 

I told him I would try not to mention it again, but I asked him to please be a little more considerate and understanding of my feelings. I of course was shaking and crying the whole time. I can't seem to control the water these days at all. Fine one second and tears pouring down the next.

I did tell him later on what I foresee happening next. I think that she will be really disappointed and try to convince her husband to do a threesome. I told him that I think they will approach him to do this and I asked him what he will do if that happens. He doesn't think they will do this and he promised me that he would never do that. I don't know guys!!! Do you think he will be able to control this if he couldn't that??? 

I let it go after that. It took him a couple of days to come around again. When he finally did, it was awesome...we had a wonderful day on wednesday...really enjoyed each other's company....had great sex, woo hoo!!! He is away now on a business trip for a couple of days. I wrote him a "love note" and put it in his suitcase. As soon as he read it he called me and thanked me and told me he loved me. 

I'm comfortable now that he will not do anything but I'm still not satisfied with the picture we have given them, so.....I have been composing a letter all day. At first it was to both of them then I decided that I would just send it to her. It is just matter of fact, explaining my side of the story and how I was not informed of what was going on from the beginning, etc. I suggested that if they were going to do those things to make sure that all parties were willing participants. I told her I knew my husband was just caught up in the excitement of it all and did not have any feelings for her and never would have, my decision was based on past experiences. I ended it by giving her advice about protecting her family and how these things can ruin marriages, etc. 

I don't think my husband would approve of this letter at all. So I don't think I'll tell him. But I feel very strongly about doing something in order to keep her away from him. There was a definite attraction there and I don't think she will stay away unless I tell her to. I left names off and kept everything random in case it would fall into the wrong hands. I'm probably far off on this aren't I? Maybe I should call her??? Then there would be no proof??? More great advice, please?????


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

I must caution you about sending that letter. I think you are about to blow it.

I am going to spell this out without any effort to be smooth, please forgive me, but you need the facts.

1)You wanted your hubby to make that phone call and cancellation sound like "our" decision, but really it was yours. So in that case, don't send a letter behind his back, and expect that to be an "ours" moment as well. (I did not write that paragraph well, so keep re-reading it until you understand!)

2)You are low on bargaining chips. You have taken away your hubby's "toy", you are not sure how much he fancies you, yet you had good sex with him the other night. Take a breather from trying to change things any more. You need time to access the situation.

3)While it is no doubt true that he has no feelings for the other woman - he just wanted a thrill - by writing that letter, you bring up a possibility that no one is thinking of - yet. And you make yourself look crazy. If her husband even dreamed she might have feeling for your hubby, he would not want them in the same room together. Normally these things are all about SEX and KICKS.

4)You made your hubby do your bidding and cancel. All in all he was quite nice about it. If you want to write or phone, you should let your hubby be in on the drafting of the letter - if there is even to be a letter.

5)You hid a note for him, and you got a good response. Honey, you gotta know when you're ahead. Quit while you're ahead.
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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

MT: Thank you for your wonderful advice. I know that you are right and I know that if he found out that I had written a letter that it would be the final straw for him. I also know that he would never agree to it. I will not send it. I will do as you say and "take a breather". But my head is still spinning from all this. I haven't slept more than two hours every night since Monday. I fall asleep and something wakes me up and my mind starts going 100 mph and then I can not go back to sleep. I'm really serious about this nervous breakdown stuff. I've been considering calling my Doc and asking for some anti-anxiety meds. I've never medicated myself before. 

Somehow I need to make it clear to him and them that I don't want him anywhere near her. I'm afraid if he is that I will scratch her eyeballs out if she comes anywhere near him. I've stayed very calm through this all considering my past...I must be getting older!!! There is a possibility that they could run into each other when I am not with him, you know? This is a very small rural area and he definitely intends on continuing his "golfing" relationship with this man. Guess I should be happy that golf season is almost over. 

I am curious about one thing though: 

you said " 3)While it is no doubt true that he has no feelings for the other woman - he just wanted a thrill - by writing that letter, you bring up a possibility that no one is thinking of - yet. And you make yourself look crazy. If her husband even dreamed she might have feeling for your hubby, he would not want them in the same room together. Normally these things are all about SEX and KICKS."

Could you elaborate more or explain what you really mean? Do you really think her husband was that naive not to notice the attraction between them like I did?

By the way, I've now lost 15 lbs!!! More to go though, but I'm beginning to feel better about myself!!


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

How about I ask you a question?
Being that we are mostly over 40 on this thread... tell me why you did not want to take up the offer of the other man. In your situation, I might have gone along with it for various reasons.

What is this guy like. Is he attractive?

I used to be much more narrow minded when I was younger, but now, well I want to pack in as much as I can into life. And your hubby was practically giving you sex on a plate with no need to do it behind his back.

My only reserve is that I would never want to play with out and out swingers - you don't know where they've been! I have never had the opportunity by the way, and don't seek it at this time, but if my wife "forced" me to do a swap with a sympatico couple, it would not be an automatic NO


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Well done on the 15 LBS!

You are worrying about that woman in the wrong way. Your husband does not want her for *her* sake. He just wants to try the swap thing, and she is the one on offer. It might well be that he is more turned on by the thought of you doing it with Mr. X, than what he will get out of her.

You might think I am crazy. But I can only speak for myself. The thought of my wife enjoying another man is hotter for me than me having another woman. I just don't need one right now. My wife is plenty sexy. But I think she would get a lot out of having another (younger) man, and I would share in her happiness. If I have to "look after" the female partner to seal the deal, well, I'll do it under sufferance I suppose 

But I must stress we are quite happy as we are, this is only "what if" talk we sometimes have.


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> How about I ask you a question?
> Being that we are mostly over 40 on this thread... tell me why you did not want to take up the offer of the other man. In your situation, I might have gone along with it for various reasons
> 
> As I mentioned before, he and I partook in a threesome with another woman around eight years ago. I was very drunk, but I was the initiator. The next morning the feeling of dread, guilt and disgust totally consumed me. And I have never been able to get the thought of my husband having sex with another woman out of my head. Not to mention the fact that it changed him almost completely. It's a feeling that I never want to feel again.
> ...


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Take it easy with the red ink already 

You just need to focus on one point - he is not interested in HER, it's just that she represents the forbidden. He does not sound like he wants an emotional affair with his friend's wife, which is what you are worrying about. He may well find her sexually alluring, but I I'm sure you are wise enough to deal with that.

Also, he may have been thinking of you more than you think. 
I dare you to ask him...

His friend might be really into you, maybe it started on his side, and YOU were the target!


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

MT: You just need to focus on one point - he is not interested in HER, it's just that she represents the forbidden. He does not sound like he wants an emotional affair with his friend's wife, which is what you are worrying about. He may well find her sexually alluring, but I I'm sure you are wise enough to deal with that.

OK, if you think he's not interested in her, then why has he been dreaming about her? Why was he chasing after her all night at the picnic? Why did he rub ice on her breast at the pub? I realize that she is married to his friend, and that is what is holding him back, but if it weren't for that or if he were given the opportunity, I don't think he could control himself.

MT: Also, he may have been thinking of you more than you think. 
I dare you to ask him...

His friend might be really into you, maybe it started on his side, and YOU were the target! 

I really don't get that part, especially since he went behind my back and agreed to do a foursome with them knowing that I wouldn't approve. It was a very selfish act on his part and he was not thinking of me at all.

On a positive note, I have just been hanging back as previously suggested. Trying not to mention any of it. I did question him after golfing with this guy if anything was said and he said it wasn't. It was a good weekend. I went to a toy store and bought some items to make things more exciting. (Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, it was a little overwhelming to me.) I haven't had the opportunity to use them on him yet, but I am looking forward to his reaction. 

I do want to set up some boundaries, because he continues to be flirtatous. I'm just not sure how to approach it or how to word it without being offensive, does anyone have any suggestions??? I feel that when he flirts with women that he is giving them the wrong idea and that is what leads to all this other junk!!! 

Plus, he doesn't wear a wedding ring (due to his previous employment). Since he no longer works in that type of environment, I want to ask him to start wearing a wedding ring. He has not worn one since a week after we married (20 years ago). What do you all think about that?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

tnt you're a great gal! You are doing just fine. Don't always be in a hurry to get to the bottom of every mystery. Your hubby is a difficult case, and you seem to be getting better at handling him. Always count to ten before reacting - just something an older man taught me when I was in my 20s.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

As far as toys go, everyone is different but I have hear good review for the egg/bullet devices.

For the wedding ring, I was similiar in situation to your husband that I never wore a wedding ring because of the job I had could cause sever damage if I wore one. Even four years later I still don't. I guess I got so use to it, but then again I wear any jewery including neckless and watches.

draconis


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

UPDATE: I have now lost 45 pounds!!! My goal was 40 pounds by my 40th birthday, which is Thursday....soooo....Woo Hoo...I did it.

As for our relationship....still needs improvement. We do so well for so long until I question him about something and BAM...we're back to square one...it's so easily done.

He thinks I'm crazy jealous and if I ask him something pertaining to him talking to another woman he goes off and turns into a cold stone wall. Like today for instance, we usually have lunch together, but he was having lunch with his coworkers. He has an hour and a half for lunch but didn't bother coming over to see me. I was hurt and suspicious. He's very friendly with some girls he works with. So I asked him what he was doing all that time and just like that...he's pissed and disassociates himself from me....so easily done....and yes, he was with them...

Why oh why do I keep putting myself thru this. I wish I just didn't care...I wish I could just let go and move on...it would be better for the both of us, wouldn't it??? But the thought of moving on is soooo scary....I know he wouldn't care if I was gone...he probably would be relieved. I don't think I'll ever get over the suspicions, but if I'm going to stay I have to....does anyone have any suggestions on how to do this??? I need them badly!!!


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Wow, great job on the weight loss!!

Well, what I do is try to be the best wife I can, take care of myself, and maintain some interests of my own...Basically, if I feel good about myself and feel that I'm doing my best as a wife, it gives me a sense of confidence ... start to think, I'd be okay on my own, but he'd be crazy to jeopardize what we have because we have both made it a great marriage 

Not that you'll never have insecure thoughts/moments, but instead of voicing them to your H, think about what you are doing today that would make him think 'I got it made with her'. Voicing jealousy and insecurities will only push him away, which is the opposite of what you want.


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## tnt20years (Aug 11, 2008)

Thank you Swedish!!! You're advice is very good. Basically, that has been my attitude for the last year...I'm just taking care of me and everything else seemed to get better, except for my outside interests. Unfortunately, we live in a very rural community and outside opportunities are far and few between. But I'm still looking for something to occupy my time with. 

I would love to become more independent, I just haven't quite figured out how. BUT....I am taking off this weekend with some friends and going to the beach. Maybe this has something to do with my insecurity....I'm afraid of what he may do when I'm gone. Uggghhhh...maybe I won't even call him while I'm gone...give us both some thinking time???


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Have fun this weekend...Don't call him if you think you will find yourself wanting to 'interrogate' him....just have fun with your friends and maybe send him a few sexy texts...about missing him...what you want to do when you get back...etc. It will probably keep things light between you & his response will probably keep you feeling fine


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