# Long term monogamy vs cheating or leaving for another



## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

On the suggestion of another poster I listened to the audiobook "SEX AT DAWN : HOW WE MATE WHY WE STRAY & WHAT IT MEANS" Also books like "His needs her needs" constantly refers to affair proofing you marriage, citing specific examples of how this takes place. It seems that they are suggesting its just part of life. Seems grim to think long term monogamy is not possible or is so difficult it rarely happens. 

My question is do you think long term monogamy is possible? 

Please include a brief history of your relationships. Their length, were there affairs, did one person leave for another?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

It certainly is possible - if both people want it and have the desire to work on it.

I'd like to think that everyone would much prefer finding that one person who truly "floats their boat" in every way, and stick with them for life. The trouble is, of course, finding someone that works for you in _every_ way. You'll almost always have to give up a little from column "A" to get something in column "B".

Also, needs change, people change, desires change.

I was with my ex wife for ~14 years, from late teens to early 30's. The first half of that relationship was near perfection - no exaggeration. By the last few years, she was not even remotely the woman I knew, almost unrecognizable in all aspects. And that's fine - people change. And with it, what you want out of life.

I literally have never bore any ill-will towards her for this. Life happens. People change, interests change, goals and desires change. The only ill-will I've ever had towards her is for how she treated me towards the end - there was no reason for it. Truly, my memories of my time with her are segmented into two parts. Almost like two different women entirely. I still have many, many great memories that I'll always have- those will never be taken away. I can look back and smile, even now. The other part, notsomuch.

Basically, you can grow together, or you can grow apart. There's always a choice.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I think long term monogamy is completely possible, it just depends on the couple.

For others, maybe 'long term monogamy' needs to be defined. Surely it means 'mating for life' for some, but maybe 20 years for others.


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

married 52 yrs and I would be disingenuous if I were to say that it was an easy road. There were at least two times I wanted to "throw in the towell" but some event kept me from doing it. Thank goodness I didn't. But even at 52 yrs of marriage, the road continues to have bumps. And those bumps can come from grown kids.

As a wise man told me 30 years ago, "It's you and your wife against the world" 

We've had 40+ year old kids turn on us. One, because we would not take sides in her divorce. the second turned on us because we would not support her sister and their younger brother did the same, even though they all agreed that the son-in-law was a great guy. Time cure a lot of woes and now the younger two realize they have a crazy older sister. 

Find some one with whom to grow old. Keep busy. Don't expect anything from anybody. Trust each other. Be Best Friends. Be Lovers. And only be with people who like you... and that doesn't always mean kids.

My wife and I have a similar background. We both grew up on farms in the 50s. We knew what hard work meant. We learned that you never give up. A similar background with the same mind set has got us through a lot.

Sorry for the rambling... Not got to get back to running my company!


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

My wife and I have only been with each other for 31 years and counting. Monogamy is easy unless you're a douche bag.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Long term monogamy yes, forever monogamy no. It's why marriage is a bad bet for anyone, but especially a man since he has too much to lose by marrying. 

The ONLY thing that kept people monogamous in the past was enormous religious and societal pressure to remain chaste before marriage and faithful in marriage. Breaking those would lead to being ostracized at best and stoned/killed at worst. So the risk of being an adulterer was too high for most people to partake. Those religious and societal pressures don't exist anymore, so monogamy forever in marriage is a pipe dream. So why sign a contract guaranteeing your spouse half of everything if you know there's basically no chance of it lasting, and the only way to deal with it lasting is to put up with affairs, and being treated like **** for a significant portion of your time together?

We're likely made for serial monogamy, once the ride's over, it's over. Move on to the next one.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Monogamy is certainly possible, and there are still plenty of people who manage to stay faithful in their marriage for the long term, or at least are serial monogamists. On the other hand, I agree with the premise of "Sex at Dawn" that humans are not monogamous by nature (very obviously, they are not - but monogamy *is* a *choice*). For those who believe in the value of monogamy and are willing to make the effort to achieve it, it's a very good choice, IMO. My own first marriage of 25 years was monogamous, and we were faithful until near the end (she had an EA, probably a PA). I divorced her, and then found another, far better relationship. I didn't find monogamy difficult, despite temptations and motivations to cheat - I chose not to. And I've never believed that monogamy is the only or best choice for a relationship for everyone.

Second marriage now, and neither of us believe in monogamy as an ideal, but are _mostly_ monogamous in practice. Once term for this is "monogamish," or perhaps polyamorous. Technically, we have an open relationship, and have for 18 years. It works well for us, because we still make each other the priority, and will end any extra connections if they cause problems for either of us. We could be monogamous, but prefer not needing to.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

VermiciousKnid said:


> My wife and I have only been with each other for 31 years and counting. Monogamy is easy unless you're a douche bag.


Works for me.


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

Completely possible - it is a choice you make over and over again during the course of the relationship.

Married 30 years. 
Separated 2 years 20-22
husband had an affair, I had an emotional affair

looking back, we see the affairs as foolish. We were looking for an escape rather than being adult about our problems. Reconciliation is hard. Staying married is hard. Going out and finding a cutie to tell you how wonderful you are is easy and frankly, the lazy way out of a marriage.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

alexm said:


> It certainly is possible - if both people want it and have the desire to work on it.
> 
> I'd like to think that everyone would much prefer finding that one person who truly "floats their boat" in every way, and stick with them for life. The trouble is, of course, finding someone that works for you in _every_ way. You'll almost always have to give up a little from column "A" to get something in column "B".
> 
> ...


Did you grow apart only because of her changing? Was there affairs involved or did she leave for someone else?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

toblerone said:


> I think long term monogamy is completely possible, it just depends on the couple.
> 
> For others, maybe 'long term monogamy' needs to be defined. Surely it means 'mating for life' for some, but maybe 20 years for others.


What has been your experience with relationships. Their length, were there affairs, did one person leave for another?


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I've had a couple that were for a few years. Some a lot shorter.

There were no affairs. Sometimes I did the leaving, sometimes they did.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

leon2100 said:


> married 52 yrs and I would be disingenuous if I were to say that it was an easy road. There were at least two times I wanted to "throw in the towell" but some event kept me from doing it. Thank goodness I didn't. But even at 52 yrs of marriage, the road continues to have bumps. And those bumps can come from grown kids.
> 
> As a wise man told me 30 years ago, "It's you and your wife against the world"
> 
> ...


My wise man told me "Your wife has to be your best friend as well as your wife" Do we know the same wise man? lol. Im also running a company. Far from rambling sir. I would consider this valuable insight. One quick question. Were any of the "throw in the towel" times related to an affair?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

VermiciousKnid said:


> My wife and I have only been with each other for 31 years and counting. Monogamy is easy unless you're a douche bag.


Congratulations on 31 years. I think its a bit more complex than just not being a douche bag. I did get a good laugh though, thanks.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Married for 22 years with no separation, divorce talk, or infidelity. Yes, we have an occasional spat but nothing major.

Prior to meeting my wife, I was cheated on three times. Once by my first GF, once by a GF in college, and once by my fiancé. All led to immediate breakups and all were relationships of over 2 years. Well, the college GF was shorter, but the other two were over 2 years.

I have never cheated though I came close with one GF. I opted instead to break up with her.

I think a long term monogamous marriage is very much doable. Plenty of people are not cut out for it, but many of us are. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> Long term monogamy yes, forever monogamy no. It's why marriage is a bad bet for anyone, but especially a man since he has too much to lose by marrying.
> 
> The ONLY thing that kept people monogamous in the past was enormous religious and societal pressure to remain chaste before marriage and faithful in marriage. Breaking those would lead to being ostracized at best and stoned/killed at worst. So the risk of being an adulterer was too high for most people to partake. Those religious and societal pressures don't exist anymore, so monogamy forever in marriage is a pipe dream. So why sign a contract guaranteeing your spouse half of everything if you know there's basically no chance of it lasting, and the only way to deal with it lasting is to put up with affairs, and being treated like **** for a significant portion of your time together?
> 
> We're likely made for serial monogamy, once the ride's over, it's over. Move on to the next one.


Thanks for the comments. Can you tell me about your history of relationships. Their length, were there affairs, did one person leave for another?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Monogamy is certainly possible, and there are still plenty of people who manage to stay faithful in their marriage for the long term, or at least are serial monogamists. On the other hand, I agree with the premise of "Sex at Dawn" that humans are not monogamous by nature (very obviously, they are not - but monogamy *is* a *choice*). For those who believe in the value of monogamy and are willing to make the effort to achieve it, it's a very good choice, IMO. My own first marriage of 25 years was monogamous, and we were faithful until near the end (she had an EA, probably a PA). I divorced her, and then found another, far better relationship. I didn't find monogamy difficult, despite temptations and motivations to cheat - I chose not to. And I've never believed that monogamy is the only or best choice for a relationship for everyone.
> 
> Second marriage now, and neither of us believe in monogamy as an ideal, but are _mostly_ monogamous in practice. Once term for this is "monogamish," or perhaps polyamorous. Technically, we have an open relationship, and have for 18 years. It works well for us, because we still make each other the priority, and will end any extra connections if they cause problems for either of us. We could be monogamous, but prefer not needing to.


Wow open relationship thats interesting. I know it would never work for me in mine but its nice to get responses from all types of relationships. Monogamy is a choice regardless of our nature, valuable insight. Should have been obvious to me but for some reason it was not until reading your post.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Is long term monogamy possible? Obviously the answer is yes. Is it probable, I would say not really given the large number of gray or silver divorces taking still taking place (it is the lone segment of divorce spectrum that is still growing). I simply think that as humans (specifically humans in the western culture) we are outgrowing our emotions.
I was married for 24 years, two adult kids (at the time of the divorce). I had become unhappy (little to no sex and vanilla when it happened). I was just waiting to die. In some ways I have developed a feeling of gratitude that she did something that I was not willing to do in ending it. I am still angry over how she did it but that is another issue.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

TX-SC said:


> Prior to meeting my wife, I was cheated on three times. Once by my first GF, once by a GF in college, and once by my fiancé. All led to immediate breakups and all were relationships of over 2 years. Well, the college GF was shorter, but the other two were over 2 years.
> 
> I have never cheated though I came close with one GF. I opted instead to break up with her.


I had very similar early relationships, almost exactly. Hard work. Thanks


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Hmm. Ok, full disclosure: I did break up with one because I wanted to have sex with other women.

edit: No, that's not right. Now that I think about it more, she was a wreck and I needed to get out. She's the one who accused me of breaking up with her for that. Not sure how her story sticks in my head.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Ynot said:


> Is long term monogamy possible? Obviously the answer is yes. Is it probable, I would say not really given the large number of gray or silver divorces taking still taking place (it is the lone segment of divorce spectrum that is still growing). I simply think that as humans (specifically humans in the western culture) we are outgrowing our emotions.
> I was married for 24 years, two adult kids (at the time of the divorce). I had become unhappy (little to no sex and vanilla when it happened). I was just waiting to die. In some ways I have developed a feeling of gratitude that she did something that I was not willing to do in ending it. I am still angry over how she did it but that is another issue.


Thanks for your comments. Sorry brother. I know all about that anger. I hope you get past it and to a place of finding someone deserving of you. Was there an affair or did she leave for another?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

482 said:


> Thanks for your comments. Sorry brother. I know all about that anger. I hope you get past it and to a place of finding someone deserving of you. Was there an affair or did she leave for another?


The anger is not something I deal with on a day to day basis. it is just something that wells up now and again. I wish her no ill will and hope she finds happiness. I just wish she had had chosen not to treat my like a piece of dog crap she scraped off the bottom of her shoe as she left. There was never any need for that. I understand people change, so rather than being left to mire in guilt and doubt for months, I might have gotten off to a much better start in my post divorce life.
As it is, I have had several long term relationships since then. I have had sex with more women post divorce than I ever had pre-marriage. I have more money. I have more freedom/ I am in general a much happier person with much more opportunity (in all aspects of life) as I now can do what I want to do instead of compromising to someone else's expectations.
I am now seeing a woman, going on three months now. All is good.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

482 said:


> Thanks for the comments. Can you tell me about your history of relationships. Their length, were there affairs, did one person leave for another?


Every woman I've ever dated or married has cheated lol, except 1. I dated her for nearly 2 years after I separated from my wife for cheating. I broke it off with her to reconcile with my wife (I wanted to raise my son in the home). I would think I'm the ******* but every single guy I know is the same. Their LT girlfriend from college or HS cheated, their wife cheated, their fiance cheated. I don't care about supposed studies, women lie about how many partners, cheating, even on surveys. I think women cheat way more than men and it's not even close (and I'm entitled to my opinion).

I tend to think the only thing that kept women faithful (long term) was the Scarlet Letter or threat of stoning. Without that it's open season. And not because women are inherently worse than men, just they have many more opportunities due to the nature of how people couple (men chase, women choose).

Women more than anyone are serial monogamists. Men are more able to just tune out their dissatisfaction and keep the status quo. This knowledge, coupled with the fact that men have so much more to lose in a divorce is why I think marriage is insane for a man today.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I was married twice. The first time, very young and pregnant, should not have married....long story, so long ago not relevant to my experience anymore and hard to even remember it....

Second time...was the love of my life. We were equally in love and in lust with each other for the duration of our relationship. Our sex life was incredible and neither of us wanted anyone else. It was easy to be monogamous. We broke up for completely different reasons and were both devastated...but your question was about monogamy....

Yes, monogamy was not only wonderful and easy, but it was also sexy. We played games with it. Like he would see a man checking me out, and he would pull me in close to his side and say under his breath but where I could hear it "get your eyes off her dude, she's MINE!" and he would pretend to glare at the guy. This was just silliness, but it was emphasizing the point of our extreme desire to be with only each other and to keep all intruders out. I played the same way with him, as he is very attractive and women would quickly latch on to him sometimes...if I went to the restroom and came back and some woman was trying to chat him up in line or something, I would go insert myself under his arm and pull him in close to me and say "ready to go, baby?" and I'd act like he needed me to rescue him from the scary, imposing woman who clearly just wanted in his pants. It sounds goofy when typing it out, but these were just sweet games we played, no one else knew what was going on (ie: we were not rude to other people, even if they were checking us out or hitting on us, we kept our game on the down low).

It made me feel so sexy and wanted when we would play like this. We both acknowledged that many other people in the world would love to get a piece of us, but that we were above all of that and it meant nothing to us...we only wanted to bask in each other's lust and desire and love and devotion.

Because I'm a very sexual person, I can't really imagine it being any other way. Meaning, a great sex life to me will always mean that we are mutually sexually attracted to each other and are compatible sexually and that we have no need or desire to be with anyone else. Seeing someone who is attractive and feeling momentary desire for them is no big deal, happens every day. But that feeling never went beyond the little blip. There was never a time with my ex that I wanted to be in another man's arms or even be touched by anyone else.

I can't say how things would have been if we didn't have that great sexual chemistry and attraction....because I honestly can't imagine how I would have continued the relationship at all if those things were lacking at any point in the beginning. So I don't know how to relate to other people's relationships where there is not mutual desire and attraction and good sexual chemistry. For me, it is either there or it isn't and I don't proceed in a relationship without it. 

When it is there, it stays there...for me, anyway. Was with my ex for 13 years and never once had a boring kiss, mediocre sex, or anything less than amazing and connected and beautiful intimacy.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> Every woman I've ever dated or married has cheated lol, except 1. I dated her for nearly 2 years after I separated from my wife for cheating. I broke it off with her to reconcile with my wife (I wanted to raise my son in the home). I would think I'm the ******* but every single guy I know is the same. Their LT girlfriend from college or HS cheated, their wife cheated, their fiance cheated. I don't care about supposed studies, women lie about how many partners, cheating, even on surveys. I think women cheat way more than men and it's not even close (and I'm entitled to my opinion).
> 
> I tend to think the only thing that kept women faithful (long term) was the Scarlet Letter or threat of stoning. Without that it's open season. And not because women are inherently worse than men, just they have many more opportunities due to the nature of how people couple (men chase, women choose).
> 
> Women more than anyone are serial monogamists. Men are more able to just tune out their dissatisfaction and keep the status quo. This knowledge, coupled with the fact that men have so much more to lose in a divorce is why I think marriage is insane for a man today.


Thanks for your comments and full disclosure. You have to admit you may be a bit bias because of your past. There are serval comments on this post that cite the contrary. I used to say the same thing because of my past, thats all I could see. Then I would mention this to people close to me and they would say "wait what about (insert couple we both know) and it forced me to say otherwise. Don't get me wrong I am still skeptical or I would not have posted this.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

482 said:


> Then I would mention this to people close to me and they would say "wait what about (insert couple we both know) and it forced me to say otherwise.


1. How long have they been together?
2. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I can guarantee to many my wife and I are the envy of the neighborhood. They don't know what transpired 16 years ago, or problems we have.

Biased? Maybe, but I don't know any man who hasn't _eventually_ been cheated on by pretty much every woman they've dated/married. Again it's not because women are horrible, they just have a lot more suitors and temptation to act on. Men typically don't have women chasing us (unless you're like top 2% in looks), men have to actively hit on women and look to cheat. Women, even if married will get hit on all the time if they're even mildly attractive, making it much easier to fall prey to the attention of a good looking man, or start to think they can do much better. Women don't have to actively look to have an affair or seek it out, men do. That's why I think the numbers are so skewed and why marriage is a bad deal for dudes today.


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## leon2100 (May 13, 2015)

482 said:


> My wise man told me "Your wife has to be your best friend as well as your wife" Do we know the same wise man? lol. Im also running a company. Far from rambling sir. I would consider this valuable insight. One quick question. Were any of the "throw in the towel" times related to an affair?


It wasn't just on issue but a bunch of problems. Teenagers... down turn in business, money problems... 
One might say that poverty kept us together... Didn't have enough money to get a divorce..


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> Biased? Maybe, but I don't know any man who hasn't _eventually_ been cheated on by pretty much every woman they've dated/married. Again it's not because women are horrible, they just have a lot more suitors and temptation to act on. Men typically don't have women chasing us, men have to actively hit on women and look to cheat. Women, even if married will get hit on all the time if they're attractive making it much easier to fall prey to the attention of a good looking man, or start to think they can do much better.


My ex is gorgeous and has women hit on him all the time, before we were married, during and after. So he did have the type of constant temptation and opportunity that I did. And yet he wasn't tempted because we loved each other, had a great sex life, and sincerely did not WANT other people. I get hit on daily and did when we were married, too. It never once made me wish for something different.

The key was for us that our mutual desire and attraction and through the roof chemistry was solid and wasn't going to be shaken by some passerby showing us attention.

Also, we had major horrible fights over the stupidest stuff....but none of that ever affected our sex life and none of our fights were ever about sex.

I'm not saying anyone or everyone can achieve what I'm describing, I just want to point out that there are people who will shatter your generalization....lots of people, too. I am not a one of a kind situation. There are several people on TAM who are in long term marriages with great sex and passion, no cheating, and no desire to....even if there are other problems, they still do not feel the need to cheat.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Married to my husband for going on 24 years. We both been monogamous we don't fight and I feel confident it will last till we die. It hasn't been hard at all . I think the key is that we are both each other's best friend and we don't let things divide us. It truly is us against the world. We don't work family or friends get in the middle.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> My ex is gorgeous and has women hit on him all the time... I get hit on daily and did when we were married, too.
> 
> The key was for us that our mutual desire and attraction and through the roof chemistry was solid and wasn't going to be shaken by some passerby showing us attention.
> 
> none of that ever affected our sex life and none of our fights were ever about sex.


If you were married to Chad, then yeah he'll get women throwing themselves at him, the rest of the men out there have to be a lot more proactive to start an affair than a woman does. I hate using the number system but it's effective. A guy needs to be a 9.5-10 to have women basically seduce him and throw themselves at him. A 7-9 male may have some flirting with them, a 6 and below man has basically no interest from women and needs to work his ass off. A woman 5 and up will have dozens of potential hook-ups or suitors throwing themselves at her daily if she chooses, a 3-4 woman can still hook up in minutes with a man much more appealing than she is, a 1-2 woman is like a man, she's gonna have to work (kudos to Tosh). Women flirt with me, but that's A LOT different than being hit on, or a woman throwing themselves at you. Women flirting at work is just a little ego fluff for them if I respond in kind.

It's a message board, so I have to speak in generalizations. There are always exceptions to any rule. I'm sure there are people married 60 years where neither has ever strayed, but I think it's exceedingly rare, especially if the woman is attractive, she'll be tempted constantly. It doesn't even have to be cheating, she can simply break it off for greener pastures. And like you 2 people hit on daily who can not be tempted (although this is very very rare). Ugly people probably have the most success with permanent lifetime monogamy because they're not going to be tempted constantly (unless the guy is rich).


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> 1. How long have they been together?
> 2. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I can guarantee to many my wife and I are the envy of the neighborhood. They don't know what transpired 16 years ago, or problems we have.
> 
> Biased? Maybe, but I don't know any man who hasn't _eventually_ been cheated on by pretty much every woman they've dated/married. Again it's not because women are horrible, they just have a lot more suitors and temptation to act on. Men typically don't have women chasing us (unless you're like top 2% in looks), men have to actively hit on women and look to cheat. Women, even if married will get hit on all the time if they're even mildly attractive, making it much easier to fall prey to the attention of a good looking man, or start to think they can do much better. Women don't have to actively look to have an affair or seek it out, men do. That's why I think the numbers are so skewed and why marriage is a bad deal for dudes today.


The examples are of close friends of family members. For instance my grandparents or her parents. Or a couple we know that have been together since high school and are still very happy. Or another close friend that has been together for 10 years and are just now getting married. I don't know about that men vs women thing when it comes to others seeking you out. It seems to happen to me very often. I thinks its like some are saying though its all a matter of what you do with it. For instance some women I know continue to seek me sexually even though I have told them I am in a relationship. I have told them we can be friends and when that proves to be to much and they don't seem to be able to honor that I completely break communication with them. Another person may let it develop into something more.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> My ex is gorgeous and has women hit on him all the time, before we were married, during and after. So he did have the type of constant temptation and opportunity that I did. And yet he wasn't tempted because we loved each other, had a great sex life, and sincerely did not WANT other people. I get hit on daily and did when we were married, too. It never once made me wish for something different.
> 
> The key was for us that our mutual desire and attraction and through the roof chemistry was solid and wasn't going to be shaken by some passerby showing us attention.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your comments. You description of the relationship sounds so good. If you don't mind me asking what ended up breaking you apart?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Well one of the things we did earlier on was set boundaries. We would make friends with the opposite sex. We wouldn't work alone on a regular basis with the opposite sex. This avoids the slow build up of accidentally falling for someone else.

And let's be honest unless your a dog you can turn down being hit on by a stranger.

When I was younger lots on men would flirt with me or make suggestions but that's not going to get me to betray my husband or randomly drop my pants.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

That should have read NOT make friends with the opposite sex.

Lol

I can't find the edit button on my phone.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

anastasia6 said:


> Married to my husband for going on 24 years. We both been monogamous we don't fight and I feel confident it will last till we die. It hasn't been hard at all . I think the key is that we are both each other's best friend and we don't let things divide us. It truly is us against the world. We don't work family or friends get in the middle.


Congratulations. I have to be honest the comments on this post have been far from what I expected. I expected more doom and gloom about the success of monogamous relationships. I guess its me cynically thinking no one is going online to share positive things. TAM proving me wrong again!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> If you were married to Chad, then yeah he'll get women throwing themselves at him, the rest of the men out there have to be a lot more proactive to start an affair than a woman does. I hate using the number system but it's effective. A guy needs to be a 9.5-10 to have women basically seduce him and throw themselves at him. A 7-9 male may have some flirting with them, a 6 and below man has basically no interest from women and needs to work his ass off. A woman 5 and up will have dozens of potential hook-ups or suitors throwing themselves at her daily if she chooses, a 3-4 woman can still hook up in minutes with a man much more appealing than she is, a 1-2 woman is like a man, she's gonna have to work (kudos to Tosh). Women flirt with me, but that's A LOT different than being hit on, or a woman throwing themselves at you. Women flirting at work is just a little ego fluff for them if I respond in kind.
> 
> It's a message board, so I have to speak in generalizations. There are always exceptions to any rule. I'm sure there are people married 60 years where neither has ever strayed, but I think it's exceedingly rare, especially if the woman is attractive, she'll be tempted constantly. It doesn't even have to be cheating, she can simply break it off for greener pastures. And like you 2 people hit on daily who can not be tempted (although this is very very rare). Ugly people probably have the most success with permanent lifetime monogamy because they're not going to be tempted constantly (unless the guy is rich).


I'm going to be as gentle about this as possible....but in my experience, men who call other men "Chad" in the way you have done above, and who also believe that everything is about physical appearance, are usually not men who really "get" how the whole attraction dynamic works. Yet they claim to know, because they've read all the red pill nonsense and they believe "science" has dictated thus and so.

I mentioned how attractive my ex is because I know that's the only way some men will be able to imagine a man who has women coming on to them all the time. However, we have several men at TAM who are in long term good marriages full of sex, who you most likely would not rank as a 9.5-10 yet who have been approached for sex by women all their lives. My ex is no where near a 9.5-10 either, by the way. 

When straight men try to figure out what other men's sex rank is, it is just a clear sign they don't really get how this works and they are trying to make sense out of it all by ranking and sorting things. 

But of course...you've already read all the blogs and whatever else that tells you that women don't know what they want themselves because we are oh so out of touch with our own inner sex kitten that we must fool ourselves with hamsters and blah blah blah.

As a highly sexual woman and one who knows many other highly sexual women and how they behave and who they are drawn to, I can tell you things that are way off your charts. But if you refuse to believe anything other than "Chad" always gets the women but every else has to hunt for it....then you will be stuck being a "non Chad" by your own belief system.

My ex is a good person. He is a kind person. He is also attractive, but he is 54 years old and not attractive to everyone, and not a 9.5 even when he was a young man. Calling him a "Chad" is insensitive and just plain mean. It shows that you really don't get why attraction occurs, and are just envious of men who you also will try to mock. Very childish.

Again...I said it as gently as I could.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

anastasia6 said:


> Well one of the things we did earlier on was set boundaries. We would make friends with the opposite sex. We wouldn't work alone on a regular basis with the opposite sex. This avoids the slow build up of accidentally falling for someone else.
> 
> And let's be honest unless your a dog you can turn down being hit on by a stranger.
> 
> When I was younger lots on men would flirt with me or make suggestions but that's not going to get me to betray my husband or randomly drop my pants.


I've found a fun, effective way to handle a person's suggestive comments or behavior is to seemingly _randomly_ talk about how happily married I am. Works every time. I like to watch them back-pedal.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

I like monogamy and expect nothing less. Cheating is not part of my life.

First marriage 20 years, no cheating. It ended due to sexual mismatch but I did the right thing and ended the marriage, cheating was not an option as IMHO it is for weak people.
Second marriage we are in our 7th year together, I expect it to be monogamous till the end of time. We are the perfect sexual, emotional, physical, moral etc match.

In my world of friends and family monogamy is the norm. TAM is a landing spot for many that have had these issues, doesn't mean the stories here are the norm.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

482 said:


> Did you grow apart only because of her changing? Was there affairs involved or did she leave for someone else?


Yes, yes and yes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WOW! Great responses on this thread and some good wisdom.

I have to say I have seen a lot of what @marriageontherocks2
is talking about. Being involved with families and ministry, I got to see a whole lot of ugliness and, to be fair, I witnessed a lot more infidelity from women than men. My experience is anecdotal however because I have brushed against different circles where the men all seemed to be goats in heat.

I tend to agree more with @Faithful Wife
in her views however. 

I met my wife at twenty and, except for a drunken ons after a terrible fight and breakup, we have been monogamous for over 26 years.

Both of us get hit on and it is flattering but that is as far as it goes.

Our sex life has had ups and downs but has not stopped getting better.

It is a choice, like anything.

I am leery of books claiming what is natural and what isn't about sexuality. We are, in my view, designed with complexity and choose what we do sexually or otherwise.

Did that book claim that brutally killing the idiot stupid enough to wander into my cave and help himself to my woman was a natural reaction as well?

I've always found it telling about authors that want to talk about primal sex without primal violence.

Mrs. Conan is extremely sexually competitive and territorial as well.

A strange woman in my arms would be in the path of destruction and me right after if we were stupid enough to risk it.

We don't stay faithful because of the threat of violence but we each love that our partner feels that passionate about our relationship.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Did that book claim that brutally killing the idiot stupid enough to wander into my cave and help himself to my woman was a natural reaction as well?
> 
> I've always found it telling about authors that want to talk about primal sex without primal violence.


Be very careful when asking red pill dudes these questions, because YES they incorporate our primal ancestry into modern day experiences and then try to claim this is why "women secretly want to get raped".

It is a whole thing with them. Completely ruining the actual lovely primal natures we have and making them be excuses for why women don't want them (ie: women don't want betas who won't give them the rush of a "rape experience", they only want alphas who would have dragged us off by our hair if we still lived in caves). They take all of that and boil it down to the pick up nonsense and in doing so, they completely miss the actual beauty behind natural attraction.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

482 said:


> The examples are of close friends of family members. For instance my grandparents or her parents. Or a couple we know that have been together since high school and are still very happy. Or another close friend that has been together for 10 years and are just now getting married. .


Kind of what I alluded to earlier, I'm married nearly 18 years, same woman, most people on the outside would think we're the happiest couple they've seen. Good looking, professional jobs, Master's degree+. They don't know our history or what happened, or what goes on behind closed doors. My personality type is INFJ so I've made it a point in my life to study people more intensely than most other people do, and I've seen enough of human behavior in my life to stand pretty confidently behind my beliefs on this and many other subjects. It's not something you just accept and fixate your life around on a whim, took me many years to get here.

When you first come to the realization of what I'm saying is likely the way it largely is it's a bit depressing. But I've done so much work on myself that I'm the healthiest I've ever been. I plan on divorcing when my son is older and I'll just do what I want to do, when I want to do it. Maybe casually date, maybe not, maybe I'll take a year off and practice meditation in Nepal, maybe I'll start a brewery. With myself in command and completely content and happy with who I am, and no dead weight dragging me down, the opportunities are limitless.

For nearly 20 years, I worked, and worked, sacrificed. It got me cheated on and basically treated like a utility (like every single married man I've seen aged 35+) I have a nice home, nice car, impressive job, means nothing to me. I don't a flying **** about any of it, keep it. I haven't had any fun, or fulfilled anything I wanted to do in that time. I love experiences and I've only had a hand full of vacations because you know work, work, work. Put the yoke on and pull that cart, we NEED another dining room set, or we just need the house so ****ing big our heating bill is more than peoples rent, **** it lol... When I divorce I'll be MGTOW without all the misogyny, woe is me, and angst.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Yes long term monogamy is possible. I've been monogamous with my husband, who I dated for 11 years and have been married to for 18. Being monogamous to him has never been hard . . . but being in a marriage with him has been very hard sometimes. 

I think he'd say the same. There have been low points that made us both question whether we were "right" for one another. We both hung in there and worked through the tough times, because we love one another and because we have a life built together that includes three children, a home, in-laws we both love, and wonderful, fun shared experiences that bind us. No one in the world knows me better than he does. No one. 

He's a good person, on a fundamental level, and even when I wasn't happy in the marriage, I never once thought about cheating on him, or was tempted to cheat on him. If I wanted out of the marriage, I would have told him. He would do the same for me. 

But I'm so, so happy that we are still together, and that we worked (and still work) through the tough times. What we have is worth fighting for, and worth the work, and worth the bad days. I want to grow old with the guy who swept me off my feet when I was still a teenager.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Yes long term monogamy is possible. I've been monogamous with my husband, who I dated for 11 years and have been married to for 18. Being monogamous to him has never been hard . . . but being in a marriage with him has been very hard sometimes.
> 
> I think he'd say the same. There have been low points that made us both question whether we were "right" for one another. We both hung in there and worked through the tough times, because we love one another and because we have a life built together that includes three children, a home, in-laws we both love, and wonderful, fun shared experiences that bind us. No one in the world knows me better than he does. No one.
> 
> ...


What a great post! It sums up marriage so very well. Even through the bad times, the marriages that survive do so because you can always see the good in your partner and focus on that. We all have little (or sometimes not so little) problems, but these can be managed if we love and respect our partner and they do the same. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm going to be as gentle about this as possible....but in my experience, men who call other men "Chad" in the way you have done above, and who also believe that everything is about physical appearance, are usually not men who really "get" how the whole attraction dynamic works. Yet they claim to know, because they've read all the red pill nonsense and they believe "science" has dictated thus and so.
> 
> I mentioned how attractive my ex is because I know that's the only way some men will be able to imagine a man who has women coming on to them all the time. However, we have several men at TAM who are in long term good marriages full of sex, who you most likely would not rank as a 9.5-10 yet who have been approached for sex by women all their lives. My ex is no where near a 9.5-10 either, by the way.
> 
> ...


Love this.

As a solid "5" (lol!) I have to say that simple confidence is key. Only in the last couple of years have I started to become more comfortable in my own skin and just be... myself. Turns out I'm a pretty okay guy. My ex wife had me so beaten down, it showed. And it showed for a number of years after. It kept showing in the early years with my current wife, as I probably felt I had to be this, that, or the other thing - anything but myself.

In the last couple of years, I have been hit on - like straight up HIT on. I have had numerous women comment to my wife how lucky she is. These things just didn't happen before. You can literally see "no confidence" on someone's face. Even when they're trying to hide it. Total turn-off for most people - not just women.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> And like you 2 people hit on daily who can not be tempted (although this is very very rare).


When you are in love and having the best sex life you possibly could, how would being hit on by a rando be a temptation? I mean yuck, total rando who is hitting on me and doesn't know me from Eve or give a crap about me and possibly doesn't even know his way around a woman's parts, or my loving husband who I adore and knows me throughout and has a 100% chance of rocking my world every single time we make love? Where is the tempation?

That's just speaking from my experience. The fact that my sex life was so awesome and I was so madly in love meant that I never once felt tempted by any rando.

I can't speak for someone who is in a relationship with just "meh" sex or no strong mutual attraction. I guess if I was in that type of relationship I would be tempted. But the temptation would have occurred almost immediately and we would have broken up before a long term relationship could exist.

I don't think this is rare to not be tempted even though hit on regularly. I think it is rare for people who are in a loving, wonderful sexual relationship to feel any temptation by being hit on by a rando.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

alexm said:


> Love this.
> 
> As a solid "5" (lol!) I have to say that simple confidence is key.


As a dude whose a 5 you have no choice but to think that.

I read a post here recently of a woman who went on Tinder, got sent a video of a dude exposing himself and she immediately ran over to screw him. Was him whipping his **** out just showing confidence? Or was it the fact that he won the genetic lottery?

There are of course exceptions but the general framework is spot on. Women react much differently to men who fit the typical male archetype women want. Ever see fat guy porn? Plus sized male models? Any women with short guy fetishes? No, women have one type of man as the ideal (not talking skin color or anything), mainly athletic build, tall, and features like a strong jaw line, nice head of hair, and handsome.

The same women who will make you chase for weeks or months, wine and dine her for even the possibility of a kiss or maybe a handjob, will **** another guy who fits her physical ideal with nearly zero effort within minutes to hours even if she's dating you (or married to you).

I'm perfectly comfortable in my own skin, mentally healthy, active, confident. But I'm not going to pretend like reality isn't real and resort to platitudes.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

marriageontherocks2 said:


> As a dude whose a 5 you have no choice but to think that.
> 
> I read a post here recently of a woman who went on Tinder, got sent a video of a dude exposing himself and she immediately ran over to screw him. Was him whipping his **** out just showing confidence? Or was it the fact that he won the genetic lottery?
> 
> ...


The woman in that thread was 24 (and the guy was 19). With all due respect to her and her outlook on life, looks are often what matters at that age. Plus, she had been celibate for ~8 months. Plus, she admittedly had severely low self esteem at that point in her life. And besides all of that - this was Tinder. Where you literally judge someone by their looks, and nothing else.

Confident, self-assured women don't throw themselves at dudes _just_ because they're good looking. It may help with the initial attraction, but it's not the be-all, end-all. It's your actions, how you carry yourself, the words that come out of your mouth. All of it makes you more attractive, regardless of what "number" you're starting out at. I may be a 5 or a 6 to look at, but spend some time with me, and that changes.

Besides, saying I'm a 5 is completely my own judgement. I've been called "hot" a couple of times in my life, and I've also been called "ugly". Usually I get "cute". It really depends on who's judging.

You're not completely wrong - better looking = better chances at _getting laid_. But that's about it. Guys like you and I have to work a little harder at that. So be it.

I've never had to "work" to get a girlfriend, or a wife. Honestly, they've come to me. If my life's goal was to remain single and bang as many women as I could, I'd be in trouble. Most of us would be.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Again great stuff everyone.

Far from what I expected. 

I expected a bunch of people to comment that were cheated on or were left for another and therefore think long term monogamy is not possible. 

I honestly felt this way not that long ago. It took people challenging my views with valid examples to force me to rethink it. 

I thought that the internet (TAM included) was where people went to vent, complain, get help and discuss the negative things that happen to them. I thought that when things were positive people would not be online discussing it. I'm not sure about other sites but TAM appears to be different. 

What I have gathered so far is that most people on this post think it is completely possible. Sometimes hard, but completely possible. 

Do not let this post stop anyone from sharing an apposing view to what I see. I welcome all comments and discussions about this. 

Thanks everyone


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

482 said:


> Again great stuff everyone.
> 
> Far from what I expected.
> 
> ...


The reality is that it takes two, and that's it.

It takes commitment on both parties to make it work. I have to continue to be what my wife wants out of a partner, and she has to continue to be what I want out of a partner. Sometimes those things change, and it's up to us to recognize and adapt accordingly - if we want to.

With my ex wife, she changed drastically. That was her prerogative. Unfortunately for her, I chose not to adapt, as frankly, it was too much. I definitely could have, and TBH, we might still have been together.


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