# Two incomes (or should I ignore my wife's spending habit with her income)?



## bbad (Feb 11, 2017)

The title is not a troll. It's a real question for a family where both husband and wife works. I used to have a pretty firm idea of what to do, but now my marriage has gone, I'm questioning myself and I want to get ready for the next one 

So about the past. We both worked with good salary. I tend to live in a frugal style, so more about buying cheap, eating at home, hate seeing stuff getting wasted, and all for saving (and investing). She's different. She believes that cheap items are not going to be good, she likes to eat out and as a woman, she bought quite a lot of shoes and bags and clothes. Didn't mean that I force my wife to be like me, I always try to be balanced. I bought her a few expensive things for special occasions (an Omega watch, a rare body painting art that she likes, a special license plate for her car). But I did complaint a few times of her buying habit. I feel uncomfortable with her buying things but not using them much. I know it's her money but I thought as a family we should share the same goal financially (I dream of being financially independent so I can retire early, or whenever I want). 

When our marriage was in trouble (and to be clear this difference in our ways of using money is not the root cause, it is just one of many things that contribute to our problem) I told her that she can buy whatever she wants and I won't make any complaint anymore because it's not worth it, but it takes time for me to accept and I still would prefer that she makes a budget plan. She agreed but never did that plan (funny, right when we agreed for a divorce she made such a plan for her future life).

I talked to a few other female friends and whenever I said about buying responsibly and not wasting they all told me that: it's her money, why did you complain? My answer is always like: but what about this family? Their responses: women think differently from men!

So am I right or wrong? Should I just ignore my future wife's buying habits as long as she can earn to cover that or should I try talking her to spending responsibly, not wasting and putting more to saving account? What do you guys usually do?


----------



## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

No. You need to be compatible with who you marry!

There are women who know the importance of a budget!


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

bbad said:


> The title is not a troll. It's a real question for a family where both husband and wife works. I used to have a pretty firm idea of what to do, but now my marriage has gone, I'm questioning myself and I want to get ready for the next one
> 
> So about the past. We both worked with good salary. I tend to live in a frugal style, so more about buying cheap, eating at home, hate seeing stuff getting wasted, and all for saving (and investing). She's different. She believes that cheap items are not going to be good, she likes to eat out and as a woman, she bought quite a lot of shoes and bags and clothes. Didn't mean that I force my wife to be like me, I always try to be balanced. I bought her a few expensive things for special occasions (an Omega watch, a rare body painting art that she likes, a special license plate for her car). But I did complaint a few times of her buying habit. I feel uncomfortable with her buying things but not using them much. I know it's her money but I thought as a family we should share the same goal financially (I dream of being financially independent so I can retire early, or whenever I want).
> 
> ...


No women don't think differently from men. Thats an excuse. Many of us as responsible as you are with money. Any money that we both earned was joint, and all of it went on the family and the day to day costs of living. 
There was no 'his' or 'mine', it was all ours. 
These things must be agreed before marriage. Personally I wouldn't marry a man who considered the money he earned as his and spent it on what he wanted without any sort of communication with me. 

Not all women spend a lot on bags or shoes either. 

Find a lady next time who thinks as you do.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You both need to agree to how you use money, and stick with that unless you renegotiate. If she spends all her money, and saves none, then she'll want to spend your savings. If she spends, then if the marriage fails, she'll get half of what you've saved, to keep spending, too.

No, you both need to prioritize bills and then some level of savings/investment, and then anything else. A budget is necessary. Do NOT marry her unless this is resolved, and keep any pre-marital savings and assets in your name alone and do not mingle them or use them for joint purposes, unless she contributes comparably. Otherwise, you WILL regret it eventually.


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

I don't understand... do you have a future wife or are you projecting your current wifes attitudes on this imaginary future wife?

1) If you are expecting the same women you are going to get it
2) Not all women are the same
3) There is a difference between spending 10% of your income on stuff you like (shoes) and living on credit to own shoes


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

bbad said:


> The title is not a troll. It's a real question for a family where both husband and wife works. I used to have a pretty firm idea of what to do, but now my marriage has gone, I'm questioning myself and I want to get ready for the next one
> 
> So about the past. We both worked with good salary. I tend to live in a frugal style, so more about buying cheap, eating at home, hate seeing stuff getting wasted, and all for saving (and investing). She's different. She believes that cheap items are not going to be good, she likes to eat out and as a woman, she bought quite a lot of shoes and bags and clothes. Didn't mean that I force my wife to be like me, I always try to be balanced. I bought her a few expensive things for special occasions (an Omega watch, a rare body painting art that she likes, a special license plate for her car). But I did complaint a few times of her buying habit. I feel uncomfortable with her buying things but not using them much. I know it's her money but I thought as a family we should share the same goal financially (I dream of being financially independent so I can retire early, or whenever I want).
> 
> ...


BB I have had the same issues with my wife over the years (40) We both work I earn more but that is not important in this discussion.

My wife over the years was very spendy on Christmas and Birthday gifts. This is an emotional issue for her.For example a $300.00 Powerwheel for a 2 year old child.

My responce would always be : How about $150.00 gift and a $150.00 investment for the future......40 years later now with grandchildren....never happened.

So it was not about the amount it was about the use of funds


My POV was to set aside funds for our childrens (4) future.To buy reasonable gifts for each event. Had we done that to a larger degree we would not had to fund thier College via our aunt Salle May. 457K in total All for the sake of filling her emotional need.

I continued to increase my 401K and IRA contributions to reduce the amount of "discretionary" spending available to her. It then only went to CC debt.

Now in our later years she can spend whatever she wants as I really did not make an issue of it because it would only lead to resentment (for her ) .So to keep my resentment in check,I simply tell her : You can work till you are 90 if you want .Me I am done at 66years 2 months.

Balance is what it is all about.

55


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A couple really needs to agree on how they want to manage money. The spend vs save is not a clear question - ending up destitute is obviously bad, but not doing things you enjoy simply to wrack up a "net worth" number doesn't make sense either. 

You can have a "Matching money" agreement, where each of you gets an equal budget for fun things, which each can spend or save. In the end though if you are married, your financial situation is pretty tightly tied together.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Both of my adult daughters are very money wise. Their partners are getting whipped into shape, and I predict a happy early retirements with nice lifestyles. On the dating websites I do see a measurable percentage of women who state they will only consider a ltr with a man who is financially responsible. So, yes, there are plenty of women out there who are careful not to waste money and who are planning for their future.

My advice to anyone getting married is to have a prenup agreeing that all retirement accounts are individual assets and not marital assets. This encourages both people to think about and plan for their financial futures. This presumes both earn somewhat similar incomes. If the incomes are very different then there needs to be some other reasonable arrangement. You both need to protect your financial futures whether you stay married or end up divorced.

In my marriage my now xw didn't worry about saving for retirement, and so she didn't. But when it came time to divorce she suddenly felt owed half my retirement savings!

I know several people who have discovered after the wedding, sometimes several years later, that their spouse had hidden very significant debt. Like 6 figures kind of debts. This was after they thought they'd had open honest disclosure prior to the wedding of all financials!

As my lawyer told me, there are 3 things to remember before getting married again. Prenup. Prenup. Prenup!

If I were you, I'd make it clear up front (like in a dating profile) that financial responsibility is an absolute requirement. No debt or at least on track on a solid plan to eliminate debt. A viable budget. Retirement savings. Then if you do get remarried, have a prenup separating your current assets as well as all future retirement assets (401k, Roth, pension, etc). I would also come up with an agreement on how to split expenses rather than just mixing all income and then having unmonitored spending.

Ideally you would each keep all but joint expenses separated. And I would strongly recommend using trusts!! Your trust would own all your assets and be the beneficiary of all retirement accounts and life insurances. This protects your heirs. Without a trust your heirs can lose everything (I lost millions to a relative's 2nd wife because he didn't have a trust, no joke). Even if you only have modest assets, a trust probably is something to have. I have one and my assets are decidedly middle class.

I will never again simply mingle assets in a marriage, and I will insist on whomever I have a ltr with be financially responsible.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Thor said:


> Both of my adult daughters are very money wise. Their partners are getting whipped into shape, and I predict a happy early retirements with nice lifestyles. On the dating websites I do see a measurable percentage of women who state they will only consider a ltr with a man who is financially responsible. So, yes, there are plenty of women out there who are careful not to waste money and who are planning for their future.
> 
> My advice to anyone getting married is to have a prenup agreeing that all retirement accounts are individual assets and not marital assets. This encourages both people to think about and plan for their financial futures. This presumes both earn somewhat similar incomes. If the incomes are very different then there needs to be some other reasonable arrangement. You both need to protect your financial futures whether you stay married or end up divorced.
> 
> ...


If I had such little trust in a man that I needed such strict financial arrangements in a marriage, then I wouldn't be marrying him. For me its far better to make sure that anyone you marry has the same attitude towards responsibility(financial or otherwise) as you do. 
The marriage service 'with all my worldly goods I thee endow' is very important to me. A marriage where you are making sure that all of 'your' money stays 'yours', to me seems like no marriage and is only thinking of yourself not your partner or the marriage. 

Its especially hard if the other spends many years caring for children and has no income or a part time income for that time, what then? Does he/she have no say in anything? Is he/she completely reliant on what her husband tells her to do financially? 
That's why we have always shared all finances. In marriage everything is 'ours' and not 'his' or 'mine'. I can't imagine living any other way.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> If I had such little trust in a man that I needed such strict financial arrangements in a marriage, then I wouldn't be marrying him. For me its far better to make sure that anyone you marry has the same attitude towards responsibility(financial or otherwise) as you do.
> The marriage service 'with all my worldly goods I thee endow' is very important to me. A marriage where you are making sure that all of 'your' money stays 'yours', to me seems like no marriage and is only thinking of yourself not your partner or the marriage.
> 
> Its especially hard if the other spends many years caring for children and has no income or a part time income for that time, what then? Does he/she have no say in anything? Is he/she completely reliant on what her husband tells her to do financially?
> That's why we have always shared all finances. In marriage everything is 'ours' and not 'his' or 'mine'. I can't imagine living any other way.


I know too many people who found out after the fact that their spouse brought crippling debt into the marriage. And I know people whose spouse turned out to be a spendaholic of the kind that makes it impossible to save anything for the future. Or one spouse decided it was easier to stay home or not pursue a reasonable paying career.

But that doesn't mean that joint expenses can't be fairly shared, and in retirement if there is no divorce that the savings can't be jointly used. I would jointly purchase a home with a 2nd wife. If my income were higher than hers then I would expect to pay more of the joint expenses.

I won't have more children if I get married again, and I expect my 2nd wife would have children of her own. It is only right that our children's inheritances be protected. But I would also want my 2nd wife to be financially protected if I were to pass first, so my money would be available to her if she exhausted hers.

My relative had a large fortune stolen by his 2nd wife when he died with a will rather than a trust. She then changed her will immediately to write his heirs out. Tens of millions of dollars. For a handicapped family member just a small portion of the original inheritance would be life altering, and for the rest of us as well. While my estate will never reach even $1M, I will not risk my children's right to it.

Now if the situation is an agreed upon SAHM or other mutually agreed arrangement where the incomes are vastly different, then yes the arrangements are going to reflect those differences.

I've seen too many cases of second spouses fleecing either the spouse or the heirs.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Thor said:


> I know too many people who found out after the fact that their spouse brought crippling debt into the marriage. And I know people whose spouse turned out to be a spendaholic of the kind that makes it impossible to save anything for the future. Or one spouse decided it was easier to stay home or not pursue a reasonable paying career.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that joint expenses can't be fairly shared, and in retirement if there is no divorce that the savings can't be jointly used. I would jointly purchase a home with a 2nd wife. If my income were higher than hers then I would expect to pay more of the joint expenses.
> 
> ...


Thats why you need to careful who you marry. I saw how my husband acted with his first wife, he let her have their house.He isn't worried about being rich, but about being fair and kind. 
We have made wills, my children will get the house once we are both dead. If I die first he can live here until he dies or meets someone else, then it will be theirs.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Your will doesn't guarantee that. Whomever inherits the house via your will is under no obligation to do anything you want with it. That's how my relative's fortune was stolen. His 2nd wife changed her will after he died. Originally her will said the same as his, that the combined assets would get distributed equally amongst his children and her children after the second of them died. After he died she rewrote her will to say everything just goes to her children. If your children inherit the house from you, they can kick your H out. If your H inherits the house he can rewrite his will so that your kids don't get the house.

You can accomplish what you desire using a trust. The trust is required to manage the assets per your directions, which would include your H staying in the house after your death but then after his death the house goes to your kids.

I know people who thought they were very careful about their spouse, first or second, yet were severely burned financially.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

In my first marriage, all that came into the house was for the family. It was all up to my then wife to distribute properly. She didn't and she didn't let me in on the secret.

In my second marriage. We both had a bank account on our own and one joint which we filled by splitting the costs of rent, food and utilities. The rest was ours t spend as we wished on our children or whatever. We had no children together, yet her 19 years old daughter lived with us for several years and contributed nothing, not even some housework. 

You'll have to work that out before you get married again. You need to know what you want, not what anyone else wants. Then you can find someone compatible in that area.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Thor said:


> Your will doesn't guarantee that. Whomever inherits the house via your will is under no obligation to do anything you want with it. That's how my relative's fortune was stolen. His 2nd wife changed her will after he died. Originally her will said the same as his, that the combined assets would get distributed equally amongst his children and her children after the second of them died. After he died she rewrote her will to say everything just goes to her children. If your children inherit the house from you, they can kick your H out. If your H inherits the house he can rewrite his will so that your kids don't get the house.
> 
> You can accomplish what you desire using a trust. The trust is required to manage the assets per your directions, which would include your H staying in the house after your death but then after his death the house goes to your kids.
> 
> I know people who thought they were very careful about their spouse, first or second, yet were severely burned financially.


Its left to the children in trust with the proviso that he can live there till he dies or remarries. Its not left to him. Even if it was there is no way he would cheat them, he isn't that sort of man. My children would never kick him out anyway, they are not those sort of people and they think a lot of him. Anyway its all been sorted legally. 

If I couldn't trust him with money then I wouldn't have married him.


----------



## bbad (Feb 11, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> You both need to agree to how you use money, and stick with that unless you renegotiate. If she spends all her money, and saves none, then she'll want to spend your savings. If she spends, then if the marriage fails, she'll get half of what you've saved, to keep spending, too.
> 
> No, you both need to prioritize bills and then some level of savings/investment, and then anything else. A budget is necessary. Do NOT marry her unless this is resolved, and keep any pre-marital savings and assets in your name alone and do not mingle them or use them for joint purposes, unless she contributes comparably. Otherwise, you WILL regret it eventually.


To be clear she did max out her 401K contribution and didn't have any credit card debt. But she occasionally said things like "where does our money go? I thought we make quite a good amount of money" whenever she looked at our savings. I told her small items do build up! And she made a statement which I will remember for the rest of my life "I must spend to be happy!" 

I agree with everything you said here. I asked her to work on a budget with bills and savings (retirement, college fund for kids) and then we can balance between spending and put some to investment (like Wealthfront).


----------



## bbad (Feb 11, 2017)

Steve2.0 said:


> I don't understand... do you have a future wife or are you projecting your current wifes attitudes on this imaginary future wife?
> 
> 1) If you are expecting the same women you are going to get it
> 2) Not all women are the same
> 3) There is a difference between spending 10% of your income on stuff you like (shoes) and living on credit to own shoes


I don't have a future wife yet. It's just the "women think differently from men" makes me question myself. I want to know what to look for and what to expect from the future one!


----------



## bbad (Feb 11, 2017)

uhtred said:


> A couple really needs to agree on how they want to manage money. The spend vs save is not a clear question - ending up destitute is obviously bad, but not doing things you enjoy simply to wrack up a "net worth" number doesn't make sense either.
> 
> You can have a "Matching money" agreement, where each of you gets an equal budget for fun things, which each can spend or save. In the end though if you are married, your financial situation is pretty tightly tied together.


Interesting you said this because I once proposed this exact "Matching money" agreement and my plan that the money I would save from my part would be mine only whatever happens in the future. She refused and said that whatever I want to spend just spend it but what I save would be ours!


----------



## bbad (Feb 11, 2017)

By the way when (if) I marry someone next time, do I have to put all my existing assets to a prenup (house, 401K, investment, I want these for me and my daughter only) or those would be automatically considered mine only if we divorce (again)?


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

bbad said:


> By the way when (if) I marry someone next time, do I have to put all my existing assets to a prenup (house, 401K, investment, I want these for me and my daughter only) or those would be automatically considered mine only if we divorce (again)?


If you never mingle the assets, and can prove their origin prior to marriage, then they are yours. BUT, a prenup spelling out what they are (and it must be honest and accurate to be valid) is still a good idea, as it will avoid any contention (and perhaps expensive litigation) if you divorce.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

bbad said:


> By the way when (if) I marry someone next time, do I have to put all my existing assets to a prenup (house, 401K, investment, I want these for me and my daughter only) or those would be automatically considered mine only if we divorce (again)?


This is where the Trust comes into play very nicely. You create a trust with a good lawyer, not some internet download! The Trust is named whatever you want, like Bbad Living Trust. Everything you own today is transferred to the Trust, which is pretty easy. You go to the bank and tell them you want to change the name on the account to the Trust. You'll have to give them copies of the Trust and fill out a form. Really easy. You have your home re-titled to the Trust, which is easy but do pay the lawyer to do the paperwork to be sure it is correct. You can file it yourself with the county/state to save a few $ lawyer fees, but really do pay the lawyer to fill out the paperwork! You can change the title on your car easy enough.

Then you have a "pour-over" will. This is your will and it says everything goes to the Bbad Living Trust. It is a safety net if you forgot anything, plus it pulls in all those things like computer, furniture, etc.

You also have to change the beneficiary on everything to the Trust as well. Life insurance, retirement accounts, etc. Again, not hard to do at all.

While you are alive, you are the owner of the Bbad Living Trust and you have full control over it. The Trust owns all your assets so when you die it is a non-event as far as the assets are concerned. The Trust continues but with a new Trustee who is someone you name. I've named one of my kids.  The new Trustee controls the Trust but doesn't *own* the Trust. Btw you can/should set it up so that if you become incapacitated then this Trustee takes over. It is like power of attorney. Anyhow, when you die the Trust has instructions how to handle the assets. You decide what happens. Likely you would say it is to all go to your daughter. But you could put in a provision that if your surviving spouse runs out of their own money then they can use Trust assets to pay for their expenses, and you can set any kind of restrictions or limits on that too.

My trust splits my estate between my kids, but it requires they be over age 25 and they be self sufficient. They must be financially supporting any spouse or children they have. They must have a college degree. So your Trust can have whatever requirements you want before your daughter gets the money. This is much better than a Will.

Not only does a trust give *you* control that a regular Will does not, it also provides that firewall between your finances and marital finances. If you do get remarried you should consult with a solid estate attorney on how to make this work in your state the way that you want it to.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

just got it 55 said:


> So to keep my resentment in check,I simply tell her : You can work till you are 90 if you want .Me I am done at 66years 2 months.


How has she accepted that? I have a spendthrifty ex-wife. Had we remained together, I am confident she would have resented me (and probably divorced me) if I retired while she was still working.

"Women think differently than men" simply is code for "some women feel it is the man's job to support them in a certain manner of living". And yeah that does happen.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

DTO said:


> How has she accepted that? I have a spendthrifty ex-wife. Had we remained together, I am confident she would have resented me (and probably divorced me) if I retired while she was still working.
> 
> "Women think differently than men" simply is code for "some women feel it is the man's job to support them in a certain manner of living". And yeah that does happen.


Well I have accepted the fact she will not change sooooooh.......The choice is hers just as mine is to call it quits when I want to not when I can.

55


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Honestly I think she's being very irresponsible and self-centered. But you're right. She probably won't change.


----------



## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

bbad said:


> I don't have a future wife yet. It's just the "women think differently from men" makes me question myself. I want to know what to look for and what to expect from the future one!


Like others have pointed out, this simply isn't true, and no two women are alike. 

Finances are one of those core values that a couple needs to see eye to eye on. For example, my husband and I have pretty similar spending habits. We both enjoy dinners out etc, so we splurge on entertainment (date nights - and well, we just threw one hell of a 4th of July party - Alcohol, tri trip, ribs, chicken, and enough side dishes to feed an army adds up!)

First thing that jumped out at me was the comments about it being "her money". In my marriage, it has always been "our money". If I get a big bonus, it means WE got a big bonus - and he is just as entitled to treat himself as I am. Conversely, we both buckle down and save when we need to. No large purchases are made without consultation of the other, and the vast majority of the time we see eye to eye on spending. 

Now... that all works just fine, and we met when we were both young and broke, so no assets (nor debts) were brought into the relationship. 

Second marriages - relationships later in life, thats a whole other ball game. Then it makes sense to separate finances more, but it is still important to have compatible values.


----------



## Shipwrecked (Jul 9, 2018)

I’ve been married for 40 years and we’ve always gone by the belief “What’s mine is yours and what’s yours is mine”. We’ve always had a single bank account from which all bills were paid. Even if we had individual credit cards (in addition to joint credit cards), all the statements went into the same file - so there was complete disclosure on spending. 
My husband tends to want to be much more frugal (or cheap) than I do but has learned over many years and much experience, that the saying “You get what you pay for” is true for many products. 

I don’t believe in needless spending for the fancy label or the best of the best however. 
We’ve always discussed any larger purchases - furniture/appliances or larger. 
And we’ve always thought of family finances first before buying expensive personal wants. Family vacations, boats, kids’ cars, took priority.

I’ve rarely known marriages that lasted when the couple kept separate bank accounts and paid their own bills (and split household bills - he pays electric, she pays cable). 
Could be because for most of our lives my husband’s career took precedence (he made 3-4x my income & freq corp transfer)
Perhaps it’s easier to keep income separate when one is extremely well off. We started off pretty broke right out of college so got used to pooling every dollar so by the time we were both earning executive salaries it was ‘just the way’.


----------

