# All hell broke loose...



## RandomDude

UPDATE3: Anyways thanks guys for your continual advice and support thus far, but I can no longer afford what ifs and what nots as my marriage is over. I'm sorry I can't give you guys any good news but this is just the way it is. Please, let's move on from this thread. 

UPDATE: Due to misunderstandings I advise any new posters to at least read the first few pages before jumping to conclusions. I understand where they are coming from, and I'm not going to edit anything of this original post because it expresses exactly how I felt yesterday morning

UPDATE2: For a short summary of this issue, and what led up to this point: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1209551-post291.html

Ok this is fkin serious... I don't even know where to start...

My wife and I just had a HUGE fking fight last night with her crying her guts out and I almost had to gag her because our daughter came running out crying as well TWICE during the night (my wife was so fking loud and wouldn't stop), right now I'm at home and I can't go to work for obvious reasons. It's pissing me off and tearing me apart at the same time watching her like this.

Ok from the beginning... after putting my daughter to sleep I joined my wife and was going to have a "light" night with her, just mucking around, laugh and have a bit of a fun time but then I thought... nah, might as well tell her my decision, get it out of my head. So I let her know that we are going to try some "abstinence" because it's obvious that we're still not getting anywhere with sexual boundaries and how she still equates sex to love. She defended herself, and tried to convince me calmly that she's doing her best and that I should give her time not impose such a thing on us when there's no need to and that she hasn't demanded anything, and that if I don't want sex tonight it's fine by her. I didn't answer her when she was curious about the length of this "abstinence", guess I wanted to test her abit...

But I stood my ground and told her that the decision is final. I did tell her that I appreciate that she's been making an effort for us but that I feel this is very important for us until we can get a handle on things. Alright, no fight, got ready for bed, then BOOM... 

Hell I can't remember even half the sh-t that happened and the crap I do remember is all over the place from her telling me that she does so much for me and all she ever wants from me is for me to love her, and that she tries so hard to make me happy, to be a good wife, and that I never stop breaking her heart, and that I always try to sabotage our marriage, and yada yada yada, more BS along those lines... I mostly just listened to her ramble on, and reminded her again and again that I'm not changing my freakin mind. 

She lashed out at the modem (accusing TAM and the net), spat her venom about our counsellor, "interrogated" me about who I've been talking to, who I'm "cheating" on her with (I laughed at her at that), what made me make such a decision, hell she came up with alot of really random BS last night. It would be interesting if she didn't lose control and look like she was about to kill herself or something. But that was just stage one.

Later, she was weeping, repeating herself and crying and crying. Then she lashed out at me again, stage 2, said she can't take this anymore and that she has enough, used the D word, and that if I don't want sex she's going to find someone else who can satisfy her (the NERVE!), I told her FINE, challenged and dared her to do it, but that I was not going to change my mind. One thing she NEVER learns, threaten me and I say BRING IT ON, it's fking reflex - and I WONT CARE, NO ONE THREATENS ME. Then she pleaded with me not to go and that she's sorry, that she went too far (TOO LATE!!!) WTF?! Yada yada yada she pleaded some more and I just ignored her at this point. She did some serious damage last night.

The other few stages were pretty much repeats and her not giving up and leaving me alone, followed me all the way to my man-cave, made it difficult for me to even prepare my sofa bed, then kept me awake all night. Eventually we had silence, we didn't say a word to each other. She was holding my hand all night telling me sorry and whatever the fk. She kept shaking me trying to prevent me from sleeping telling me that she wants to hear that I'm not going to leave her - it's frankly pathetic. 

So I pulled her off my bed, kicked her out of my cave, and locked the door (actually looking back that was pretty funny lol). Now I don't know whether or not the whole strict sexual boundary thing is a good idea or not but her reaction last night has proven to me that this issue is far more serious then I had thought and that I was right to doubt that she would be happy with sex that isn't 3x a day. *sighs*

If I had continued to be nice the irony is that this problem could have been so much worse considering the SHEER amount of anger and resentment that came out last night. Imagine if I had let it fester? SH-T! Sheez, and people wonder why I poke her to get her to explode from time to time (and not the playful poke either) - this I guess, is her "explosion" after not being "safely exploded" for some time.

The house feels like it just got ravaged by carpet bombing. I wonder if some aspects of my past behaviour right now actually had a valid reason for them. My throat is fking raw atm... bleh, need to go for a drive and get some honey but NOOOO... my wife needs supervision. This sux

I do NOT know what to do or how to think or how to feel at the moment... =/
Frankly she disgusts me at this point, it's rather pathetic, what happened to that strong woman that I married? Now she's a little girl begging and begging to have her way or else.


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## DawnD

So you decided to unilaterally cut off sex for an undetermined amount of time?? I would have gone bat **** crazy too.....


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## underwater2010

And you sound like a complete jerk right now. I really think that the two of you need to seperate for awhile.


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## pidge70

Dude, I think you broke her......seriously.


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## DawnD

SHE did some serious damage last night? What about YOU? Who the crap told you it was okay to dictate abstinence for undistinguished amounts of time in a marriage?? WHEN is that EVER okay? What the hell were you thinking? This isn't about her being a nympho or needing therapy, this is about YOU thinking you are just going to DECIDE how it is gonna happen without her input. That isn't a marriage.


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## RandomDude

What else am I supposed to do? We've had this issue for YEARS now and sexual boundaries to her is a FKING JOKE

I wasn't even planning long term abstinence just enough to help her see there is MORE to life then just FKING SEX. But her reaction... WTF?! She threatened me to D me, threatened to f--k someone else, what do you expect? I don't take threats, EVER

*sigh*


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## WorkingOnMe

You sir, are playing with fire. I don't think you're going about this the right way. If you were a woman cutting off all sex unilaterally, I'll advise your husband to dump you. Are you sure you're not making a mountain out of a molehill? I mean, you're married to a woman who wants sex with you. You're both high drive. Or at least claim to be. Your behavior lately just seems kind of emotionally abusive to me.


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## RandomDude

I didn't even want to do it, I AM HD, I was prepared to torture myself just for her for just a CHANCE to STOP FIGHTING ABOUT SEX IF ITS NOT FKING 3X A DAY

What else could I have done?!?!


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## Faithful Wife

Dude you said: "Hell I can't remember even half the sh-t that happened and the crap I do remember is all over the place from her telling me that she does so much for me and all she ever wants from me is for me to love her, and that she tries so hard to make me happy, to be a good wife, and that I never stop breaking her heart, and that I always try to sabotage our marriage, and yada yada yada, more BS along those lines... I mostly just listened to her ramble on, and reminded her again and again that I'm not changing my freakin mind."

This is so very disrespectful to your wife. She is trying to express her real feelings, which are every bit as valid as your own, but you describe it as BS and her rambling on.

How did you expect to have a real conversation with her if you never thought of her feelings as being valid?

I am sorry, I don't really know your sitch, but your post just seems so cold toward your wife.


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## RandomDude

*sighs*

I don't know anymore, I'm pain right now knowing she's hurting so much but I just don't know what to do or what to say or if we can even fix this. Right now I feel like giving up

I think I must have flipped the coin too far into my cold and indifferent side, I had to, it tore me apart to hear those words out of her that I almost BROKE until she brought up D and that she was going to outsource for sex then I hardened up back up again.


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## Maricha75

RandomDude said:


> What else am I supposed to do? We've had this issue for YEARS now and sexual boundaries to her is a FKING JOKE
> 
> I wasn't even planning long term abstinence just enough to help her see there is MORE to life then just FKING SEX. But her reaction... WTF?! She threatened me to D me, threatened to f--k someone else, what do you expect? I don't take threats, EVER
> 
> *sigh*


Sexual boundaries, to her, is a joke, so you say. Why is that? Because YOU FVCKING GIVE IN ALL THE DAMN TIME! Seriously, RD, you say you have made improvements...now, I think you have taken a HUGE step backwards. You made this decision without even trying to discuss it first. She should be having equal say when it comes to NOT having sex with her husband. 

You know what pisses me off? When some men say they equate sex with love, MOST nod and agree... but let a woman say it, namely YOUR WIFE, and it's the worst offense in the world! WTF?!?! Seriously, RD, this time, you fvcked up big time. And honestly, if my husband were to say "*I* am implementing abstinence for an unspecified amount of time" I'd walk... or kick his ass out. It's bullsh!t expecting your wife to go SEXLESS because you THINK her drive is too fvcking high! Perhaps YOU are the one who actually needs the help....


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## Faithful Wife

Saying "I had to" act in an unloving and harsh manner just shows that you yourself are unable to take responsibility for your own actions. No one else ever "makes" you do something.


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## TiggyBlue

I am wondering if she has ever been strong or did you label her strong so that you felt justified playing games with her (she's strong she can take it), not saying you did just wondering if it's a possibility.
You said no one threatens you, but you threatened her with abstinence and didn't like the result of it.
Sorry but I think if you know she correlates sex to love and said you were going to cut it off you where seeing how far you could push her. You brought this down on your own head.


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## RandomDude

So when I don't give in, like now - I've made a huge step backwards
So either way, with this sex issue - there was just NO WAY I could have won is there?

I didn't threaten her I just made a decision and stuck with it. I did it in a calm way until she fking exploded.


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## Mavash.

First off please stop talking. That doesn't help.

Secondly to cut off someone who has a sex addiction is just cruel.

What I've suggested before is to simply stop enabling her. I didn't say cut her off. I meant stop with the 3X a day sex and just say no. Stick to a more reasonable sex schedule like oh I don't know every other day??? And you don't even have to tell her that ahead of time just gently with love in your heart tell her 3X a day is more than you can do and you will have sex with her TOMORROW.

Offer up cuddling. Offer to hold her. Offer to watch her masturbate while you hold her. Offer up anything BUT sex.


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## TiggyBlue

You threatened her with abstinence (and didn't give it a deadline), she retaliated with threatening to f*ck someone else. 
Stick to your guns with baby steps, totally cutting her off from the one thing she has a massive psychological problem with was bound to result in what happened.


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## RandomDude

I'm not saying a word to her at all!



> What I've suggested before is to simply stop enabling her. I didn't say cut her off. I meant stop with the 3X a day sex and just say no. Stick to a more reasonable sex schedule like oh I don't know every other day??? And you don't even have to tell her just gently with love in your heart tell her 3X a day is more than you can do and you will have sex with her TOMORROW.


I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT ALREADY!!! She still gets pissy about it and since MC we've had rare days when we actually were happy together because she wasn't GETTING SEX 3X A DAY so she decides to be a b-tch about it!!! This issue has been ongoing for years...

It was already once a day and she STILL WASN'T HAPPY, I committed time for her aside from our daughter as well and she STILL WASN'T HAPPY. I ran out of options...

I really don't know what to do anymore



> Offer up cuddling. Offer to hold her. Offer to watch her masturbate while you hold her. Offer up anything BUT sex.


I DID!!! Since MC knowing it was difficult for her I did all of that and more, I opened up myself to her that I never dared with anyone since I was 12 yrs old on the streets. *sighs*


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## Mavash.

My heart goes out to you. Again if this were a woman she would have totally cut off her husband a lot longer ago than you have. If a woman can't make her husband happy with daily sex she's likely say fvck it too and be done with it.

Its so hard for people to grasp because you're a man. 

I swear this thread would have different advice if it were a woman complaining about her husband wanting sex 3X a day and b1tching when daily wasn't enough.


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## TiggyBlue

How long have you been doing mc? 
Any type of counseling can take months or even years to have a effect.


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## RandomDude

Maybe I should change my name to RandomChick and repost this thread

MC is recent, about 2 months or so, can't remember exactly... *sigh* maybe I should have just let things go, but my wife still could not understand that she needs help, resisted changes at every turn, and with sex, I've been extremely vulnerable and loving to her, went 180 into beta zone.

I even told her that I was planning a renewal of vows for her, a wedding of her dreams that we never really had due to the rush and dramas when she got pregnant all those years ago... she didn't care, she just wanted sex

It hurts you know, it's not something many men experience, to try to express your love to someone and then have it rejected, the only thing not rejected is your c--k which ends up being used regardless of whether you want it or not.

*sighs*
I'm so done with this, I'm lost, clueless, and have no idea where to go from here


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I'd go ballistic too if my SPOUSE/PARTNER decided for me what was best for me and tried to play amateur psychiatrist with me. It's one thing for YOU to advocate for YOUR needs which might be getting some love from your wife that didn't involve sex, but deciding for her that she needed to abstain from sex so that she could see that there's more to life than that and thus learn a lesson...UNfreakin believable. How do you get to decide what's best for anyone other than yourself and your child? Talk about boundaries, good lord.


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## RandomDude

@I'llbehisfoolagain

Yes that's what p-ssed me off alot last night, she didn't lower her voice at all and completely ignored the fact that our daughter is hearing all of this, yes she's in school. We're not talking at the moment, I'm staying home just to make sure she doesn't burn the house down.

I just don't know how else to handle this... I'm REALLY LOST AT THE MOMENT


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## RandomDude

Alright, enough moaning... WHAT DO I DO? WHAT THE F--K CAN I DO?!


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## diwali123

It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. I don't care if it's moral or not. Selling your body is self destructive and for someone to be at the point where they can have sex with people for money indicates something is wrong. She was either completely desperate, had low self esteem, was disconnected from her body, or all of the above. 
I have a very hard time believing there was no abuse. 
I think you need to call your MC and have an extra session.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Call your therapist ASAP!!!!
I would apologize to her and tell her you didn't mean to hurt her, you didn't know what to do, you wanted to try to make thumgs better and you are sorry. Tell her that you are going to get into MC's office ASAP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash.

Sorry RD I got nothing. My husband handled me by cutting me off.  

Not completely but mostly.

And then he just worked a lot and avoided me. We didn't have kids then.


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## RandomDude

> Call your therapist ASAP!!!!
> I would apologize to her and tell her you didn't mean to hurt her, you didn't know what to do, you wanted to try to make thumgs better and you are sorry. Tell her that you are going to get into MC's office ASAP.


Alright, guess that's a start... we'll see how it goes



> Sorry RD I got nothing. My husband handled me by cutting me off.
> Not completely but mostly.


So your husband did what I did, but it worked yes? Darn it now I feel even more confused >.<


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## Mavash.

RandomDude said:


> So your husband did what I did, but it worked yes? Darn it now I feel even more confused >.<


He didn't announce it like you just did he just checked out emotionally and physically. Avoided me like the plague. I swear he took the graveyard shift just to get away from me.

And I'm not normal. Most don't even realize they have a problem. I did....when I hit rock bottom. That's when I sought help.


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## DawnD

Should you apologize for your approach and for thinking it was your right to make a decision about your sexual relations without her? Yes. 

Should you drop the issue at hand? Absolutely not. But to get your point across you are going to have to be blunt and slightly vulnerable. Tell her " I feel like you only think of me as the d*** to satisfy you and you are refusing to meet my needs the way I have asked". Tell her you think you two really should try a period of abstinence, but have a number in mind. say a month. Or two weeks, whatever.


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## diwali123

I would wait to talk to MC about abstinence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

Mavash. said:


> He didn't announce it like you just did he just checked out emotionally and physically. Avoided me like the plague. I swear he took the graveyard shift just to get away from me.
> 
> And I'm not normal. Most don't even realize they have a problem. I did....when I hit rock bottom. That's when I sought help.


=/

Well, if I did that, it would end up with the same results though possibly worse because she wouldn't know why I was just avoiding her



> Should you apologize for your approach and for thinking it was your right to make a decision about your sexual relations without her? Yes.
> 
> Should you drop the issue at hand? Absolutely not. But to get your point across you are going to have to be blunt and slightly vulnerable. Tell her " I feel like you only think of me as the d*** to satisfy you and you are refusing to meet my needs the way I have asked". Tell her you think you two really should try a period of abstinence, but have a number in mind. say a month. Or two weeks, whatever.


Alright, I'll do this today, in counselling, have to wait a bit though, she's at an appointment atm... *sighs*


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## Mavash.

RandomDude said:


> =/
> 
> Well, if I did that, it would end up with the same results though possibly worse because she wouldn't know why I was just avoiding her


Exactly. A fatal flaw in my conflict avoidant husband's plan for sure.


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## RandomDude

Well... his plan worked, don't know if mine is any better heh


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## Mavash.

I wish he would have told me but honestly I don't know if it would have made a darn bit of difference. I'd have just screamed at him and broken something. LOL


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## RandomDude

Yeah, like what my wife did last night?

Just wish my daughter didn't have to see/hear all of that, reminds me when I was a child, hearing mum and dad quarreling, and I was at my door listening... hoping they can just stop fighting


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## Mavash.

Pretty much. Back then I was prone to fits of rage when I didn't get my way.


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## diwali123

I have done similar things. 
It is so frustrating to feel like every other man in the world would jump at the chance to have that much sex but your husband doesn't. Whether its rational or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash.

diwali123 said:


> I have done similar things.
> It is so frustrating to feel like every other man in the world would jump at the chance to have that much sex but your husband doesn't. Whether its rational or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


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## diwali123

I would talk to your daughter after you talk to your wife. Yes it is bad that she saw that but tell her that it's also true that sometimes people fight and make up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame

Just read through all of this & find it was really important to let it all sink in, since my impression from the first post to the last has changed dramatically.

RD - This sounds like a desperate, sustained primal scream & I really feel for you. I think you can be forgiven your frustration, esp. because it sounds like it comes from a position of love for your wife.

I agree with the others who say this is not for you to know how to solve. She needs to have her equation of love with sex redefined so that she can credit other intimate acts as signs of love. You can help with this if you know what to do, but only a real professional should advise, I think.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

RandomDude said:


> Alright, enough moaning... WHAT DO I DO? WHAT THE F--K CAN I DO?!


You could sedate yourself and get some sleep in a safe place and not mess with the situation.


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## sinnister

I've only read page 1 so that's my disclaimer.

I've commented on some of your posts in the past that have raised some red flags to me. I'm in a different situation than you are so I'm not exactly qualified to give you good advice on how to handle a wife that wants you physically 3 times per day.

But what I will say is that both my profession and my personality requires that I notice trends, even obscure ones.

And the trend I'm seeing from your posts is that there's "tolerance" going on here. Please ask yourself a very tough question and be honest with yourself. Do you love your wife?

There are some sublte indicators that lead me to believe that may be in question.


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## canttrustu

WorkingOnMe said:


> You sir, are playing with fire. I don't think you're going about this the right way. If you were a woman cutting off all sex unilaterally, I'll advise your husband to dump you. Are you sure you're not making a mountain out of a molehill? I mean, you're married to a woman who wants sex with you. You're both high drive. Or at least claim to be. Your behavior lately just seems kind of emotionally abusive to me.


Kind of????? He drug her off his bed, threw her out and locked the door with her crying her eyes out no doubt. Frankly, RD- I'd divorce you. You seem to think you are doing her a favor to have sex with her. Now your using it as a weapon. AND laughing about it.

Youre being a real asshat.


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## WyshIknew

As other posters have said I think you need to apologise for the way you handled it but try to get across that you did so out of desperation.

I think that even in my 20's early 30's I would have been hard pressed to manage 3 times a day *every* day.


Could you not negotiate it down to once per day/ five or six times per week? You could then make that session more enjoyable, more fun?

When you say 3x a day are we talking about 10 to 20 min each time or half hour to hour sessions?

Maybe if you could show her that by reducing the amount you improve the quality she would be more open.

You said she feels this is the way she feels love, perhaps if you explained you feel love by making love less often but with more intensity.


Apologies, you have probably tried all this but felt it worth mentioning just in case.


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## canttrustu

RandomDude said:


> *sighs*
> 
> I don't know anymore, I'm pain right now knowing she's hurting so much but I just don't know what to do or what to say or if we can even fix this. Right now I feel like giving up
> 
> I think I must have flipped the coin too far into my cold and indifferent side, I had to, it tore me apart to hear those words out of her that I almost BROKE until she brought up D and that she was going to outsource for sex then I hardened up back up again.


Let me ask you this- IF she told you she was cutting you off for some undetermined period of time JUST becaus she felt like it and you could go fvck yourself- what would YOU do? HOW would YOU respond? would you be hurt? would it occur to you that she was having sex with someone else? 

what the hell are you doing to this woman?


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## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> She defended herself, and tried to convince me calmly that she's doing her best and that I should give her time not impose such a thing on us when there's no need to and that she hasn't demanded anything, and that if I don't want sex tonight it's fine by her. I didn't answer her when she was curious about the length of this "abstinence", guess I wanted to test her abit...


I can't believe I missed the part I quoted above. SOOoooo, what you are saying is that she handled it calmly, until you decided you wanted to screw with her. 

Then you get pissed when she freaks out because you are being a child. Wow. I think you need some of your own therapy RD.


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## pidge70

DawnD said:


> I can't believe I missed the part I quoted above. SOOoooo, what you are saying is that she handled it calmly, until you decided you wanted to screw with her.
> 
> Then you get pissed when she freaks out because you are being a child. Wow. I think you need some of your own therapy RD.


:iagree: He constantly talks about how he like to "poke" her and then when she does react, he complains that she isn't "strong". You can only push someone's buttons for so long before they crack.


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## sinnister

Here's the thing though, it's not just this incident.

There have been numerous posts where something just seems off with the way RD is handling things. I mean, 3X a day is definitely excessive and there's no way I could keep up with that pace, but there just seems to be a sense of indifference to feelings that is indicitive of a man who's either given up on trying to fix the issue, or just doesn't really love her.

And forgive me RD, I don't mean any disrespect, this is purely an outsiders speculation.


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## Mavash.

pidge70 said:


> :iagree: He constantly talks about how he like to "poke" her and then when she does react, he complains that she isn't "strong". You can only push someone's buttons for so long before they crack.


Pidge you are spot on. As you know (I hope) it takes TWO to screw up a marriage and RD is no exception. He has created this monster and at times has fed it. On the one hand he gets off on it and on the other he wants normalcy.

Time to get off the fence RD. You can't have it both ways.


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## Catherine602

Are you drinking again? 

You hold her in contempt. That is the worse attitude that one person can show to another let alone a person you live with and who is the mother of your child. 

She disgust you? You are disgusted by a person you say you love and who needs your consistent reassurance of love? You are disgusted by a person that you kick when they are down? You are disgusted by a woman who cannot fight back? 

What does that make you? 

I hope she reads this.

Mrs RD - 

RD seems to thrive on keeping women off balance in relationships. This relationship is making you crazy. If you get out you will recover and be able to move on. 

Your fear of leaving is about you too - why do you stay and why are not in IC? Don't be afraid of IC. It is either that or this miserable existence. I really hope in time you will get the courage to leave. 

He appears to be manipulating you by triggering your insecurities at times when you appear to be breaking free. Don't beg him - it undignified and opens you to very destructive contempt from him. Contempt is the very worse thing one human being can show to another. 

Please get out if not for yourself then for the sake of your daughter. Let her see what a healthy relationship is like. She will end up in a crazy making relationship because that is all she knows. Give her a chance for a normal loving relationship.


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## pidge70

Mavash. said:


> Pidge you are spot on. As you know (I hope) it takes TWO to screw up a marriage and RD is no exception. He has created this monster and at times has fed it. On the one hand he gets off on it and on the other he wants normalcy.
> 
> Time to get off the fence RD. You can't have it both ways.


Exactly! I've been reading his posts for a long time. Here is my prediction, he will come back, read the posts that point out where he could improve and then this thread will die out. It has happened time and time again. I could be wrong though....meh.

I feel so sorry for the child. If this unhealthy dynamic continues, that girl will end up in dire need of therapy herself.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

If you withhold all other forms of love from her, it's no wonder she turns to sex for security and attention.


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## Shaggy

Look, what you did was issue an non negotiable declaration if abstinence. That's not leaving any room for talking, collaborating or anything.

You just dropped it and pulled a major part of your marriage off the table,

Of course he reacted like she did.


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## Mavash.

pidge70 said:


> I've been reading his posts for a long time.


So have I. Tried to help him 18 months ago then took a break from TAM. Came back and saw nothing had changed. Same old same old.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.


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## TCSRedhead

Mavash. said:


> My heart goes out to you. Again if this were a woman she would have totally cut off her husband a lot longer ago than you have. If a woman can't make her husband happy with daily sex she's likely say fvck it too and be done with it.
> 
> Its so hard for people to grasp because you're a man.
> 
> I swear this thread would have different advice if it were a woman complaining about her husband wanting sex 3X a day and b1tching when daily wasn't enough.


:iagree:


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## alte Dame

Shaggy said:


> Look, what you did was issue an non negotiable declaration if abstinence. That's not leaving any room for talking, collaborating or anything.
> 
> You just dropped it and pulled a major part of your marriage off the table,
> 
> Of course he reacted like she did.


What struck me when I read through this thread was the way he seemed to have so little compassion for his W - she's sobbing her heart out & he's hearing it as 'blah, blah, blah.'

He pulled 'a major part of the marriage of the table' but in this case this major part is very broken. He's reacting with his own prescriptions and frustrations and he's not a therapist - he's doing seat-of-the-pants stuff that probably just makes things worse & hurts his W.

I think sinnister is right to question whether the love is there. My very cursory read was that it is, but is damaged daily by the dynamic they've got going.


----------



## RandomDude

Oh FFS... SINCE WHEN?! SINCE WHEN did I withhold all other forms of love from her?! HOW THE FK DID ANYONE OF YOU COME TO THAT CONCLUSION WHEN I MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY:



> I'm not saying a word to her at all!
> Quote:
> What I've suggested before is to simply stop enabling her. I didn't say cut her off. I meant stop with the 3X a day sex and just say no. Stick to a more reasonable sex schedule like oh I don't know every other day??? And you don't even have to tell her just gently with love in your heart tell her 3X a day is more than you can do and you will have sex with her TOMORROW.
> 
> I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT ALREADY!!! She still gets pissy about it and since MC we've had rare days when we actually were happy together because she wasn't GETTING SEX 3X A DAY so she decides to be a b-tch about it!!! This issue has been ongoing for years...
> 
> It was already once a day and she STILL WASN'T HAPPY, I committed time for her aside from our daughter as well and she STILL WASN'T HAPPY. I ran out of options...
> 
> I really don't know what to do anymore
> 
> Quote:
> Offer up cuddling. Offer to hold her. Offer to watch her masturbate while you hold her. Offer up anything BUT sex.
> 
> I DID!!! Since MC knowing it was difficult for her I did all of that and more, I opened up myself to her that I never dared with anyone since I was 12 yrs old on the streets. *sighs*





> MC is recent, about 2 months or so, can't remember exactly... *sigh* maybe I should have just let things go, but my wife still could not understand that she needs help, resisted changes at every turn, and with sex, I've been extremely vulnerable and loving to her, went 180 into beta zone.
> 
> I even told her that I was planning a renewal of vows for her, a wedding of her dreams that we never really had due to the rush and dramas when she got pregnant all those years ago... she didn't care, she just wanted sex
> 
> It hurts you know, it's not something many men experience, to try to express your love to someone and then have it rejected, the only thing not rejected is your c--k which ends up being used regardless of whether you want it or not.
> 
> *sighs*
> I'm so done with this, I'm lost, clueless, and have no idea where to go from here


I've GAVE HER EVERYTHING but she STILL WONT' BE HAPPY! READ FFS! Bah, going to edit my post so people actually READ...

As I said before - I did this as a last ditch attempt to make her respect some fking sexual boundaries for once. YES I know I've contributed to her disrespect by giving in in the past, so she reckons she can get away with manipulating me to get what she wants, which she has all the time when it comes to sex.

WHAT THE FK MAKES YOU GUYS THINK I ENJOY THIS?! When I don't give in to her -> I'm still the bad guy. When I give in to her -> I'm still the bad guy. So either way, I'll always be the ******* no matter what I do... FK!!!

There's NO WAY I CAN WIN IS THERE?

As for kicking her out of the cave, I was tired, stressed, hurt from what she said which she can never take back and SHE WOULDN'T STOP NOR LEAVE IT ALONE when it's obvious we needed TIME OUT. I was not READY to answer her when she was shaking me preventing me from sleep.

SINCE WHEN DO I TRIGGER HER INSECURITIES FOR KICKS?! THIS WASN'T A POKE FOR REACTION. AND I WAS CALM UNTIL * SHE * DECIDED TO EXPLODE. I didn't attack her, I just STOOD MY GROUND.

As for my hardassness and indifference I HAD TO, how the FK else could I make her respect some boundaries if I'm going to GIVE IN to her ALL THE TIME which I HAVE FOR THE LAST FOUR FKING YEARS
We fight, and everyone thinks of me as an ass because I complain about sex being demanded-or-else 3x a fking day.

We had an "emergency" session with our MC, things are frankly really bad atm, she's hardening up, I don't blame her. Can we salvage what happened last night, I don't know. But dehumanising me or calling me an ass or accusing me of not loving her is not fking helping

ADVICE I can take, I POSTED HER WORDS that I remember because I DID NOT POST THIS THREAD TO DEFEND MY OWN ACTIONS, I wanted a clear understanding of what happened, what I did, what I fked up in, how could I have handled it better.

DON'T FKING ACCUSE ME OF NOT LOVING MY WIFE
DON'T FKING ACCUSE ME OF GETTING KICKS OUT OF THIS BECAUSE I SURE AS HELL I DON'T!!!!

ALL I FKING WANT IS FOR HER TO RESPECT SOME SIMPLE SEXUAL BOUNDARIES THAT NO MEANS NO, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER AT ALL!! You think I would even be this distressed about it if I DIDN'T LOVE her?

IF I DIDN'T LOVE HER THEN FINE... I wouldn't even give a sh-t about her problems and I wouldn't care if she gets all p-ssy or insecure whenever I turn her down. If I didn't love her DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK I WOULD EVEN GIVE A SH-T HOW SHE FELT EVERY TIME I REJECTED HER?
Also, WE POKE EACH OTHER FOR REACTIONS AS BANTER BUT THIS IS * NOT [b/] I REPEAT,  NOT  and was NEVER A POKE FFS. You can't just take one dynamic and think it applies to ALL fkin situations in our marriage.

Jebus the conclusions some people make especially in a difficult time like this really PISSES ME OFF...*


----------



## canttrustu

RandomDude said:


> Oh FFS... SINCE WHEN?! SINCE WHEN did I withhold all other forms of love from her?! HOW THE FK DID ANYONE OF YOU COME TO THAT CONCLUSION WHEN I MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've GAVE HER EVERYTHING but she STILL WONT' BE HAPPY! READ FFS! Bah, going to edit my post so people actually READ...
> 
> As I said before - I did this as a last ditch attempt to make her respect some fking sexual boundaries for once. YES I know I've contributed to her disrespect by giving in in the past, so she reckons she can get away with manipulating me to get what she wants, which she has all the time when it comes to sex.
> 
> WHAT THE FK MAKES YOU GUYS THINK I ENJOY THIS?! When I don't give in to her -> I'm still the bad guy. When I give in to her -> I'm still the bad guy. So either way, I'll always be the ******* no matter what I do... FK!!!
> 
> There's NO WAY I CAN WIN IS THERE?
> 
> *As for kicking her out of the cave, I was tired, stressed, hurt from what she said which she can never take back and SHE WOULDN'T STOP NOR LEAVE IT ALONE when it's obvious we needed TIME OUT. I was not READY to answer her when she was shaking me preventing me from sleep.*SINCE WHEN DO I TRIGGER HER INSECURITIES FOR KICKS?! THIS WASN'T A POKE FOR REACTION. AND I WAS CALM UNTIL * SHE * DECIDED TO EXPLODE. I didn't attack her, I just STOOD MY GROUND.
> 
> As for my hardassness and indifference I HAD TO, how the FK else could I make her respect some boundaries if I'm going to GIVE IN to her ALL THE TIME which I HAVE FOR THE LAST FOUR FKING YEARS
> We fight, and everyone thinks of me as an ass because I complain about sex being demanded-or-else 3x a fking day.
> 
> We had an "emergency" session with our MC, things are frankly really bad atm, she's hardening up, I don't blame her. Can we salvage what happened last night, I don't know.


Yes you were all of these things, but so was she. The part that bothered me more than youre actually doing this was that you thought it was funny in retrospect. You said so yourself. WTF is funny about manhandling your wife while she cries because youre pulling a bunch of HS drama out of your hat?


----------



## RandomDude

If I don't laugh at some of the stuff that happened, I'll lose my own head

So I'm sorry if my coping mechanism during this heartbreaking crisis is offensive, but I value my own sanity thank you very much


----------



## canttrustu

RandomDude said:


> If I don't laugh at some of the stuff that happened, I'll lose my own head
> 
> So I'm sorry if my coping mechanism during this heartbreaking crisis is offensive, but I value my own sanity thank you very much


Im merely saying that you think its funny is worrisome. You just told us that your wife was so bad off that you cant even go to work yet still there's something funny here? 

I think you have the correct avatar, DramaKing.


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## RandomDude

It's an avatar that folks gave me, I don't take sh-t seriously when it comes to what people think of me so I adopted it

Just because I can laugh post-humorously about a situation doesn't mean I ENJOYED THE FKING DAMN THING, SHEEZ


----------



## diwali123

You both seem like you have some borderline tendencies to be honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

Our relationship from day one was about pushing boundaries because it was a struggle for us to get together now 7 yrs later I'm trying to establish boundaries and when it comes to sex -> it's EXTREMELY difficult for tons of reasons - reasons already discussed. We were a team before marriage, before bible college as well, we used to be always by each other's side - us against the world, now it's us against each other. 

And yes we both know this, and we've progressed over the last 4 years, but sex has always been an issue.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I think you just need to step away when she starts having problems. Trying to manage her problems is the problem.
You can only manage where and when you choose to use your equipment. If your choices don't work for your marriage, then you have to do what everyone else does when all reasonable attempts have been made. You have to end the relationship for your own mental health. You can only do so much. Trying to play therapist to your spouse/partner isn't really healthy in a relationship. 

This has been going on, like forever. Meanwhile, I've finished therapy, resumed my work life, got a divorce, had two significant relationships (one ended with a major health crisis, the other turned out to be a narcissist pothead who's now just a friend), learned to ballroom dance and Argentine Tango competently, paid off in effect good as done my credit card debt, finished half of a second degree pulling A's, and been on two camping vacations. Also had some decent sex somewhere in there, before the N's issues set in, and my hair's grown out. And, I'm now fluent in Spanish.


----------



## RandomDude

Agreed, I'm not touching this problem anymore, I can't win this battle, that's if things can ever get back to normal after last night. We haven't had a fight like that for a really long time, and it's also the first time she used the D word on me - which really shoke me up something stupid.

After MC it was apparent that we are just too heated to deal with this issue with each other at the moment. Life must go on so we're avoiding each other for now, give each other some space. *sighs*
I'm spent


----------



## PBear

So here's my thoughts. I said long ago that I thought your wife had serious issues. That hasn't changed. Personally, I think she ties the sex to you showing you love her. It's the equivalent to you saying "I love you". And when you reject her "3x a day demand", you're telling her that you don't love her. It's not just saying "I don't feel like putting out right now". 

Having said all that... Your stance of putting your abstenance foot down without resolving the reason why she wants sex was just wrong. And to do it with no discussion and no end date was just cruel. Now you've got to deal with that pain and rejection that she's feeling. Did your counselor advise any of that? And your counselor knows about your wife's past, right? Seems like a better approach would have been to get the three of you to agree to a plan, whatever it was. Not for one of you to make unilateral decisions. 

I don't know if your wife is like this because she was abused, because of her sex trade experience, or for some other reason. And I'm not a shrink. So take all this with a grain of salt. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

RandomDude said:


> Agreed, I'm not touching this problem anymore, I can't win this battle, that's if things can ever get back to normal after last night. We haven't had a fight like that for a really long time, and it's also the first time she used the D word on me - which really shoke me up something stupid.
> 
> After MC it was apparent that we are just too heated to deal with this issue with each other at the moment. Life must go on so we're avoiding each other for now, give each other some space. *sighs*
> I'm spent


I find when it comes to irrational out of control people that being slightly sedated helps me to see the big picture. Your adrenal system is probably way overworked/trigger-happy. Getting something from a psychiatrist might be the best way to go. Otherwise your body systems and brain are always going to be on alert. If you can calm down half of the system that feeds these furies, you'll have won half the battle. Getting sucked into it isn't all that great a strategy. Also, if you're asleep, she's not going to be able to ask you for any, so for whatever period of time you're knocked out, you'll be safe. The rest of the time, the lingering sedated feeling will keep you from over-giving. She'll have no choice but to deal with it on her end, the you not being available because you have your own health/mental health issues to deal with. If she's narcissistic and this is all acting out on N needs, eventually you'll need to get out of harm's way.


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## WyshIknew

Hi Random,

I may be coming at this from a 56 year old mans point of view.

Does your wife not realise that any man is going to be unable to enjoy sex 3x a day every day. I think you have done remarkably well to manage what you have done.

I hope it works out for both of you.


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## RandomDude

MC was actually shocked I did that to be honest, recommends against any other decisions of this nature in regards to this issue unless the three of us find a compromise first, it's too volatile apparently, which I guess I learnt from last night.

And she didn't let me go to sleep, I wanted to sleep before I do something stupid after what she said but she didn't leave me alone so I had to kick her out of my man-cave before I did something worse. I restraint ALOT last night

MC really drilled it into us both but she did it rather well considering my wife didn't explode in counselling. I don't know what's going to happen anymore

@WyshIknew

Not to mention some folks here think I don't love her... *sighs*


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## Mavash.

I believe you love her otherwise you wouldn't be all over this board looking for help. You wouldn't even care.


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## TiggyBlue

I don't doubt for a second that you love her, it just sounds from post you sometimes have a tendency of (inadvertently) throwing fuel onto the fire then being pissed its blown up in your face.


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## RandomDude

I have to admit though, last night for just split seconds at a time I felt nothing but disdain when she didn't lower her voice despite my insistence even after our daughter came out crying twice during the night. She didn't even seem to care. We've both talked to our daughter since then but that was just out of control and dangerous.

@abitlost

I was wrong to have made a decision for her, yes I know, but I didn't do it just to fuel the fire. I haven't been that man since I quit alcohol


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## TiggyBlue

That's why I said inadvertently I really wasn't saying you did it to get her in such a state.


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## alte Dame

People analyze based on what they read. For what it's worth, I read from your text that you love your wife, but are feeling desperately, explosively frustrated. And the moments of disdain you admit to came through as well.

When we are dealing with intractable emotional problems like this for long, long periods of time, it affects our core feelings. So you love your wife, but perhaps other feelings override that sometimes because of the problems you have. 

In any event, the MC sounds like a good way to regain some perspective.


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## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> I was wrong to have made a decision for her, yes I know, but I didn't do it just to fuel the fire. I haven't been that man since I quit alcohol


Um no. You threw a whole can of gasoline on there when she was calmly talking with you and you admitted that you refused to tell her what amount of time you wanted to be abstinent for. YOU wanted to test her limits, and it all blew up in your face. That is on YOU.


----------



## RandomDude

We have another session today, it's an emergency and I'm happy at least that MC has decided to work overtime for us. She's the only counsellor my wife seems to warm up to as well so MC was a good decision. Hell, I even had to coerce her to do it (favor for a favor) - that's how stubborn she is

I don't know if her strength can pull her through last night however, hell who knows, maybe by now she's hardened up her heart enough she no longer sees anything with me anymore. If she wants divorce I'm not going to fight with her about it, it would be a shame considering the issues we have overcome over the years... and I doubt I'll ever love again.

She's the only one for me, if she wants to leave and find someone else then fine, I can't keep her here if she can't be happy. What she needs is a pornstar that can keep up with her desires and sex 3x a day, because I sure as hell know by now I just can't, and I do NOTHING but hurt her because I can't.

It's not a good feeling to know that no matter what you do, you just can't provide for your wife. I worked 84 hours a week for some time in the past to advance in my workplace, pushing for more money, more responsibilities until I ended up taking over the place. My wife came from a rich background but I have never once asked for her money or money from her parents, yet I have no degree but still managed to give her the same lifestyle that she had before me. I credit this success to my wife because no one else not even myself could have inspired me to achieve what I have achieved.

I've tried for years to understand her, read love languages and obviously hers was physical touch, yet physical touch to her means nothing unless it comes with sex. I've put out repeatedly to keep her happy, to make her feel loved, even when my balls are aching and throbbing in pain. I don't like period sex but I do it for her because it relieves her cramps.

Recently I even told her that I was planning a renewal of vows for her to give her the wedding that she has always dreamed of which we didn't have due to the rush/panic/dramas when she got pregnant and our shotgun wedding. She didn't give a sh-t, nothing makes her happy except for sex.

I can't make her happy, I'm giving up trying because it's obvious I can't do anything at all. I feel fking useless when the one woman I love so much I can't even satisfy.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> I can't make her happy, I'm giving up trying because it's obvious I can't do anything at all. I feel fking useless when the one woman I love so much I can't even satisfy.


Really? Because you have ignored about 98% of the posters who have been telling you to STOP trying to create drama. She was talking with you calmly. YOU decided to start screwing with her. When it blows up, you make her out to be crazy. Sorry my friend, that is not the truth. 

You have repeatedly been on the forum and informed a lot of us about how you like to push and break her boundaries, but when she does it to you, she is disrespectful. When you do it to her, its PLAYFUL. Not the way it works. You know that whole saying "treat others how you wish to be treated". I really think you need to get back to the basics here.


----------



## RandomDude

DawnD said:


> Um no. You threw a whole can of gasoline on there when she was calmly talking with you and you admitted that you refused to tell her what amount of time you wanted to be abstinent for. YOU wanted to test her limits, and it all blew up in your face. That is on YOU.


Read:


> But I stood my ground and told her that the decision is final. I did tell her that I appreciate that she's been making an effort for us but that I feel this is very important for us until we can get a handle on things. Alright, no fight, got ready for bed, then BOOM...


I did nothing but stand my ground, refusing to tell her the amount of time for the abstience was my bad yes, but she knows I'm HD too how long do you think even I can last? A month is enough to make ME go crazy

I was wrong to test her, but I didn't want her to think "ok, just hold out for this amount of time, then we can get back to normal and I will still have my way"



> Really? Because you have ignored about 98% of the posters who have been telling you to STOP trying to create drama. She was talking with you calmly. YOU decided to start screwing with her. When it blows up, you make her out to be crazy. Sorry my friend, that is not the truth.


Erm, no, read above.



> You have repeatedly been on the forum and informed a lot of us about how you like to push and break her boundaries, but when she does it to you, she is disrespectful. When you do it to her, its PLAYFUL. Not the way it works. You know that whole saying "treat others how you wish to be treated". I really think you need to get back to the basics here.


If you're refering to the boundary which forbids extra-marital threesomes and such, I have not once forced or demanded or even once made it a serious issue. It just gets her to slap me and that's that, I don't push it, and she knows when I'm asking to be slapped.

But sexual frequency is not the same, it's loaded with DEMANDS after DEMANDS, silent treatments, b-tchy behaviour, complaints, manipulations ALL FROM HER SIDE. So you tell me, how the fk did you come up with that comparison?


----------



## Mavash.

RandomDude said:


> I can't make her happy.


Best insight you've had so far.

Happiness comes from within.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> Read:
> 
> 
> I did nothing but stand my ground, refusing to tell her the amount of time for the abstience was my bad yes, but she knows I'm HD too how long do you think even I can last? A month is enough to make ME go crazy
> 
> I was wrong to test her, but I didn't want her to think "ok, just hold out for this amount of time, then we can get back to normal and I will still have my way"


You stood your ground on a demand that you had no right to make. Then you went a step further and wanted to push her TO SEE WHAT SHE WOULD DO. 

I am STILL at a loss as to where you thought it was a good idea to start laying out demands and refusing to clarify what exactly it is that you want. You had your chance to say Hey, I was thinking we could go without for a week, and then slowly start in to a routine that I am more comfortable with. Instead, you wanted to push her, and you got what you got.


----------



## RandomDude

If you have read carefully I DID give her a hint as well: "Until we get a handle on things"

It was not like "FOREVER AND EVER NO MORE SEX"


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> If you're refering to the boundary which forbids extra-marital threesomes and such, I have not once forced or demanded or even once made it a serious issue. It just gets her to slap me and that's that, I don't push it, and she knows when I'm asking to be slapped.
> 
> But sexual frequency is not the same, it's loaded with DEMANDS after DEMANDS, silent treatments, b-tchy behaviour, complaints, manipulations ALL FROM HER SIDE. So you tell me, how the fk did you come up with that comparison?


No I am not referring to that at all. I have not read up on any threesome threads LMAO.

I am speaking of how you intentionally push her and push her because you think it is funny. She has tried to set boundaries with you along the lines of how she wants to be treated, and you crap all over them. This last idea of yours was a perfect example. When she tried to talk to you, you kept pushing until she snapped. You threw out a demand about your sex life that you came up with all by yourself, and you think that isn't breaking her boundaries??


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> If you have read carefully I DID give her a hint as well: "Until we get a handle on things"
> 
> It was not like "FOREVER AND EVER NO MORE SEX"


What the hell does that even mean? 6 weeks? 6 months? A week? And you KNOW that is not a real answer.


----------



## RandomDude

DawnD said:


> No I am not referring to that at all. I have not read up on any threesome threads LMAO.
> 
> I am speaking of how you intentionally push her and push her because you think it is funny. She has tried to set boundaries with you along the lines of how she wants to be treated, and you crap all over them. This last idea of yours was a perfect example. When she tried to talk to you, you kept pushing until she snapped. You threw out a demand about your sex life that you came up with all by yourself, and you think that isn't breaking her boundaries??


Then name them, show me when I crapped all over her in regards to how she wants to be treated

As for boundaries why should I be happy with being treated like nothing but a c--k? Reading some of the earlier replies, people mentioned "imagine if your wife took away something important to you and then tell you you can't have it back until she says otherwise"

This something of hers which is important to her is MY FKING BODY FFS - I DON'T BELIEVE IN OBLIGATION WHEN IT COMES TO SEX
I HAVE NEVER SAID TO HER "I'm your husband so I OWN YOUR BODY"... pfffft


----------



## COGypsy

Just out of curiousity--how do you think you might have reacted if this were switched around?

Say for example, your wife came into the man-cave one night, unplugged the man-fridge and informed you that you wouldn't be drinking any more. And that upon further exchange, it comes down to no more alcohol for you, until she feels like you can handle your drink.

What kind of $hitstorm do you think might have resulted from her trying to "control" you, and violate your manhood, and clearly not understanding your stresses and your need for down-time?

Heck--what if she'd gone a step further and barred off the man-cave? Told you that you don't get to use that room until you comply with her "boundaries" for sex and affection?

I'm guessing that you'd go off and that there'd be a lot of talk about all you do to provide for the family and how hard you work and how much you need a nice drink or some quiet time and that the conversation would eventually start to sound somewhat similar.

How exactly would you have reacted to a unilateral action against something that was core to your coping mechanisms? Even if yes, now you know that the drinking was a problem and it's better now that you don't. Even if yes, you realize that your wife and daughter need time with you too, even after you've had a long day.... Would you have been calm enough to hear any "hints" about when you could have your beer or your cave back or would you just be unholy pi$$ed?

How would you honestly have reacted if SHE were the one taking something fundamental to your day away from you indefinitely and until SHE decided you could have it back?


----------



## RandomDude

As I mentioned before, yes I've heard this criticism, there's a few from the first pages ->



> As for boundaries why should I be happy with being treated like nothing but a c--k? Reading some of the earlier replies, people mentioned "imagine if your wife took away something important to you and then tell you you can't have it back until she says otherwise"
> 
> This something of hers which is important to her is MY FKING BODY FFS - I DON'T BELIEVE IN OBLIGATION WHEN IT COMES TO SEX
> I HAVE NEVER SAID TO HER "I'm your husband so I OWN YOUR BODY"... pfffft


And for the record if she had done the same thing to me last night telling me that she's decided to have some abstinence from sex I wouldn't have gone anywhere NEAR berserk from it nor would I ever go berserk if she withholds sex. In fact, whenever she does reject me I take responsibility for it but I don't go "oh she doesn't want me and I feel so unloved", I go "alright, yeah my line was lame" or "yeah I stink like hell" or "hell I have lost weight, need to hit the gym" etc etc


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> Then name them, show me when I crapped all over her in regards to how she wants to be treated
> 
> As for boundaries why should I be happy with being treated like nothing but a c--k? Reading some of the earlier replies, people mentioned "imagine if your wife took away something important to you and then tell you you can't have it back until she says otherwise"
> 
> This something of hers which is important to her is MY FKING BODY FFS - I DON'T BELIEVE IN OBLIGATION WHEN IT COMES TO SEX
> I HAVE NEVER SAID TO HER "I'm your husband so I OWN YOUR BODY"... pfffft


You violated her boundary stating she would not be in a sexless marriage. You violated the boundary of answering an honest question with an honest answer. You physically removed her from your "man cave" which I am guessing is a huge boundary breaker for her. You violated her boundary of making relationship decisions without her. You violated her boundary of not being subjected to OWNERSHIP. The same boundary you were trying to enforce you were breaking. She doesn't own your body, and you don't own hers.That means you violated HER boundary the second YOU made a decision about HER sex life without involving her.


----------



## COGypsy

RandomDude said:


> Then name them, show me when I crapped all over her in regards to how she wants to be treated
> 
> As for boundaries why should I be happy with being treated like nothing but a c--k? Reading some of the earlier replies, people mentioned "imagine if your wife took away something important to you and then tell you you can't have it back until she says otherwise"
> 
> This something of hers which is important to her is MY FKING BODY FFS - I DON'T BELIEVE IN OBLIGATION WHEN IT COMES TO SEX
> I HAVE NEVER SAID TO HER "I'm your husband so I OWN YOUR BODY"... pfffft


I don't think that anyone who's read much about your situation feels that you should just suck it up and put out. What this particular instance blew into wasn't about you establishing a boundary for yourself and your body, it was about you throwing out a dictatorial pronouncement about the state of your relationship. 

A boundary would have been "I need a break this week" or "not tonight" or "I can't feel sexual with you when you come one to me like such and such". But then you back it up with your behavior and not frustrated edicts. You tell her you love her, would love to be close to her, and then DON'T HAVE SEX. Or you love her, but you need some space and the DON'T HAVE SEX. You don't yak on about boundaries and then put out as soon as she pouts. That's how you get p!ssed off enough to go nuclear all over the situation. 

Going back to my previous post, it would be the difference between her having a discussion with you where she tells you she's uncomfortable with how much you drink, but understands that it's something you enjoy and the two of you agree that you'll have beer with dinner but the fridge comes out of the man-cave and no drinking after dinner time. And she holds you accountable for that. 

Or if she expressed unhappiness over the man-cave time. You might agree to an hour after work to relax, then you do family stuff the rest of the evening. And you'd agree to come out and she'd agree to come in and remind you if you didn't.


----------



## RandomDude

You're talking about last night when I acted out of desperation. I'm asking you to show me when I have crapped over her prior to last night.



> She doesn't own your body, and you don't own hers.That means you violated HER boundary the second YOU made a decision about HER sex life without involving her.


So what it comes down to is that in the end -> I'm still obligated to put out because her sexual tendencies demands it, and if I don't, then I'm violating her boundaries.

If that's what my wife feels, then I'm divorcing her. I will not be used for sex anymore, surprised I even put up with this despite being sexually molested and used by my own mother when I was a child. Now it seems in marriage it's the same thing, as a man, I should not complain when I am being used.


----------



## RandomDude

You're talking about last night when I acted out of desperation. I'm asking you to show me when I have crapped over her prior to last night.



> She doesn't own your body, and you don't own hers.That means you violated HER boundary the second YOU made a decision about HER sex life without involving her.


So what it comes down to is that in the end -> I'm still obligated to put out because her sexual tendencies demands it, and if I don't, then I'm violating her boundaries.

If that's what my wife feels, then I'm divorcing her. I will not be used for sex anymore, surprised I even put up with this despite being sexually molested and used by my own mother when I was a child. Now it seems in marriage it's the same thing, as a man, I should not complain when I am being used.

FK IT


----------



## TCSRedhead

I can't imagine being in his shoes - having a spouse who isn't satisfied with once a day, acting out if she doesn't get it the number of times a day she feels is appropriate. 

This isn't rational behavior. If this were a woman saying that her husband was demanding sex 3x a day or acting like an a$$hat if she didn't put out, you'd all be giving much different.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> You're talking about last night when I acted out of desperation. I'm asking you to show me when I have crapped over her prior to last night.
> 
> 
> 
> So what it comes down to is that in the end -> I'm still obligated to put out because her sexual tendencies demands it, and if I don't, then I'm violating her boundaries.
> .


I am not saying that at all. But I am saying by coming down stairs and declaring your relationship in abstinence mode, you are violating her rights and boundaries in the relationship. No one on this thread had said you have to put out every time she wants it. But no one has supported your warped view of deciding the future of your sexual relationship by yourself.

You feel that she was violating your boundaries by demanding sex, so you demanded abstinence. You are doing the exact thing you were complaining about.


----------



## DawnD

TCSRedhead said:


> I can't imagine being in his shoes - having a spouse who isn't satisfied with once a day, acting out if she doesn't get it the number of times a day she feels is appropriate.
> 
> This isn't rational behavior. If this were a woman saying that her husband was demanding sex 3x a day or acting like an a$$hat if she didn't put out, you'd all be giving much different.


Nope. I would not ever tell anyone man or woman that deciding to cut off sex completely without even discussing it with their spouse is okay. I think I have even said that on this site before with a woman who had done just that. 

But I also remember a woman on here who said she was tired of having it 3x a day with her hubby, and all the men accused her of "bait and switch" when she wanted a change.


----------



## RandomDude

I've alright realised that mistake that I made last night and admitted to it

Move on from it, at least try to understand what pushed me to do that, and help us find a solution that we simply can NOT find at present times


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> I've alright realised that mistake that I made last night and admitted to it
> 
> Move on from it, at least try to understand what pushed me to do that, and help us find a solution that we simply can NOT find at present times


I am being dead serious, I can not help when I don't understand what led to you walking over and demanding abstinence from your wife. Truly, until you can tell me exactly what was going through your head, I can't tell you anything helpful other than try to get you to realize that the two of you have VERY similar behaviors, and yet those behaviors coming from one another seem to piss you both off.


----------



## alte Dame

RandomDude said:


> You're talking about last night when I acted out of desperation.


I think you did act out of desperation. I also think that your situation is so different that most of the analogies don't work.

It sounds like you were worn out, frustrated, in despair, trying to find some solution, much like the spouse of an alcoholic who locks up all the booze. But alcohol isn't an integral, necessary part of a healthy marriage, so comparisons like this don't work.

Parallels like 'how would you feel if she did this to you...' don't work either, because you don't suffer from the same problem she does & you're dealing with severe dysfunction, not some wrinkle on healthy behavior.

It sounds like both you and your W need some time to recover from the blowout & the MC might help figure out how to move forward.


----------



## DawnD

alte Dame said:


> I think you did act out of desperation. I also think that your situation is so different that most of the analogies don't work.
> 
> It sounds like you were worn out, frustrated, in despair, trying to find some solution, much like the spouse of an alcoholic who locks up all the booze. But alcohol isn't an integral, necessary part of a healthy marriage, so comparisons like this don't work.
> 
> Parallels like 'how would you feel if she did this to you...' don't work either, because you don't suffer from the same problem she does & you're dealing with severe dysfunction, not some wrinkle on healthy behavior.
> 
> It sounds like both you and your W need some time to recover from the blowout & the MC might help figure out how to move forward.



Am I missing what led to this specific conversation?? I am asking because I have gone back and read, and I still can't figure out what happened that led to this conversation. Help me out here please.


----------



## RandomDude

This issue has been going on for 4 years, and in the past it was alot worse, to the point she even used religion to get me to submit to her demands (hence I joined this forum), hence I say "she has improved" because she was an absolute demon during those times.

Fast forward to today I've tried everything, new compromises, quit the alcohol, stopped the flirting/games, showed her public affection the middle of ******* central because she was upset I didn't like people staring at us just because they don't see a couple like us very often, became more vulnerable to her, told her I love her everyday, ALL OF THIS to make her happy because I knew I can not do 3x a day forever. NONE OF IT WORKED AND NONE OF IT MATTERED

Read (2nd page):



> I'm not saying a word to her at all!
> Quote:
> What I've suggested before is to simply stop enabling her. I didn't say cut her off. I meant stop with the 3X a day sex and just say no. Stick to a more reasonable sex schedule like oh I don't know every other day??? And you don't even have to tell her just gently with love in your heart tell her 3X a day is more than you can do and you will have sex with her TOMORROW.
> 
> I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT ALREADY!!! She still gets pissy about it and since MC we've had rare days when we actually were happy together because she wasn't GETTING SEX 3X A DAY so she decides to be a b-tch about it!!! This issue has been ongoing for years...
> 
> It was already once a day and she STILL WASN'T HAPPY, I committed time for her aside from our daughter as well and she STILL WASN'T HAPPY. I ran out of options...
> 
> I really don't know what to do anymore
> 
> Quote:
> Offer up cuddling. Offer to hold her. Offer to watch her masturbate while you hold her. Offer up anything BUT sex.
> 
> I DID!!! Since MC knowing it was difficult for her I did all of that and more, I opened up myself to her that I never dared with anyone since I was 12 yrs old on the streets. *sighs*


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> This issue has been going on for 4 years, and in the past it was alot worse, to the point she even used religion to get me to submit to her demands (hence I joined this forum), hence I say "she has improved" because she was an absolute demon during those times.
> 
> Fast forward to today I've tried everything, new compromises, quit the alcohol, stopped the flirting/games, showed her public affection the middle of ******* central because she was upset I didn't like people staring at us just because they don't see a couple like us very often, became more vulnerable to her, told her I love her everyday, ALL OF THIS to make her happy because I knew I can not do 3x a day forever. NONE OF IT WORKED AND NONE OF IT MATTERED
> 
> Read (2nd page):



Right, I am just asking what happened that made you walk over and demand the abstinence? I know you don't just sit there and think of something to do to cause a fight. So what happened that pushed you there that day/?


----------



## tiredwife&sahm

RandomDude said:


> You're talking about last night when I acted out of desperation. I'm asking you to show me when I have crapped over her prior to last night.
> 
> 
> 
> So what it comes down to is that in the end -> I'm still obligated to put out because her sexual tendencies demands it, and if I don't, then I'm violating her boundaries.
> 
> If that's what my wife feels, then I'm divorcing her. I will not be used for sex anymore, surprised I even put up with this despite being sexually molested and used by my own mother when I was a child. Now it seems in marriage it's the same thing, as a man, I should not complain when I am being used.


Welcome to wifehood. I hate to say it but I'm glad this is coming from a man cause women feel like this alot sometimes. On that note, you may have to take your peers advice and suck it up and just do it like most men feel their wives should


----------



## Mavash.

tiredwife&sahm said:


> suck it up and just do it like most men feel their wives should


3 times a day? Are you serious?


----------



## RandomDude

Just an utter disgust with the whole situation and realising I have been submitting to her every whim when it comes to sex even with MC. Her playing victim sometimes instead of being so aggressive was just another tactic she used on me to get her way. She admitted to me years ago as well (after our inter-religious crisis) that she knows about this side of hers... and pinned the responsibility on me to be able to handle it. What can I say? "I tried MY FKING BEST woman, TOO BAD! I can't help you no more..." *sighs*

Yes she has been sincere admist all the victim playing, but when you come home with a surprise for her that is non-sexual in nature, and then when she finds out you don't want sex, she complains and tells you that you shouldn't even touch her unless you want it because it apparently "leads her on" and hurts her... it GETS ON YOUR NERVES

How about my feelings on the whole thing? I went 180 into beta zone because I thought - ok, she needs help in this, I will support her all the way, I'll do whatever I can to make her comfortable... imagine that you thought that... only to find out it BIT YOU IN THE ASS...

Where's the line between being supportive and being a fking doormat?


----------



## DawnD

Mavash. said:


> 3 times a day? Are you serious?


If he did it before marriage, then he should do it after marriage, otherwise he pulled a bait and switch on her  Obviously kidding Mavash and RD.


----------



## alte Dame

I have to say, RD, I feel a bit twilight-zoney here, because I seem to be the only (or almost only) one who thinks all of the following: There is serious, serious dysfunction on your wife's side, you are at the point of tearing your hair out, and that feeling is justifiable & therefore mitigates your behavior.

Do I think you did the right thing with your declaration that sent her over the edge? I don't know & can't really judge definitively. Do I think you sound like you've reached your limit? Yes, I think you sound that way, although you love your wife, so you no doubt have much more to give yet.


----------



## tiredwife&sahm

Mavash. said:


> 3 times a day? Are you serious?


Yes. If this was the other way around his wife would be getting flamed by every male on TAM from here to China. From all I've learned here at TAM sex is a great need for men that they feel their wives should *always* give in to. It just happen to be the other way around this time.I can clearly see that his wife is being unreasonable, but fair is fair.


----------



## Mavash.

RandomDude said:


> Where's the line between being supportive and being a fking doormat?


Start with the basics. What are you okay with? Stop letting her manipulate and control you. You are the one who can't say no.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> Just an utter disgust with the whole situation and realising I have been submitting to her every whim when it comes to sex even with MC. Her playing victim sometimes instead of being so aggressive was just another tactic she used on me to get her way. She admitted to me years ago as well (after our inter-religious crisis) that she knows about this side of hers... and pinned the responsibility on me to be able to handle it. What can I say? "I tried MY FKING BEST woman, TOO BAD! I can't help you no more..." *sighs*
> Okay, I did go try and find some old threads. I found one, that I can not figure out how to link, that said you agreed to conflict resolution, and to not let things fester overnight. Which you did last night. So she is not the only one playing the victim here. You are saying one thing and completely disregarding it when it comes time to put it in action.
> 
> 
> Yes she has been sincere admist all the victim playing, but when you come home with a surprise for her that is non-sexual in nature, and then when she finds out you don't want sex, she complains and tells you that you shouldn't even touch her unless you want it because it apparently "leads her on" and hurts her... it GETS ON YOUR NERVESYou are uber aware that her only need is apparently physical touch from you right? So you are trying to force her to have different needs or????
> 
> How about my feelings on the whole thing? I went 180 into beta zone because I thought - ok, she needs help in this, I will support her all the way, I'll do whatever I can to make her comfortable... imagine that you thought that... only to find out it BIT YOU IN THE ASS...
> 
> Where's the line between being supportive and being a fking doormat?


Being supportive is respecting her boundaries while enforcing your own. Being a doormat is just doing whatever the hell she tells you to.


----------



## Mavash.

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Yes. If this was the other way around his wife would be getting flamed by every male on TAM from here to China. From all I've learned here at TAM sex is a great need for men that they feel their wives should *always* give in to. It just happen to be the other way around this time.I can clearly see that his wife is being unreasonable, but fair is fair.


I bet you'd be hard pressed to find any man on here that agrees that a woman should ALWAYS have sex 3 times a day just because he wants it.

Most of the men here are actually quite reasonable. Many are happy with 2-3 times A WEEK not per day.


----------



## RandomDude

DawnD, I didn't do it before marriage, not everyday at least. We were fine, in fact - PERFECT - BEFORE MARRIAGE, at least on the sex department. And before she went into bible college, we were PERFECT in and out of the bedroom. It's those times that keeps us going, otherwise I'm sure one of us would have called it quits ages ago.

Alte Dame, thanks for your understanding, I just wish there is a solution in all of this mess, right now I really wish I never lived, but I'm being pushed on with responsibilities and now I have a daughter to bear this pain for, at least until she turns 18, then maybe I'll kill myself then.


----------



## alte Dame

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Yes. If this was the other way around his wife would be getting flamed by every male on TAM from here to China. From all I've learned here at TAM sex is a great need for men that they feel their wives should *always* give in to. It just happen to be the other way around this time.I can clearly see that his wife is being unreasonable, but fair is fair.


There is huge difference between the healthy and normal differences between men and women regarding sexual needs & what RD is describing here about his wife.


----------



## alte Dame

RandomDude said:


> DawnD, I didn't do it before marriage, not everyday at least. We were fine, in fact - PERFECT - BEFORE MARRIAGE, at least on the sex department. And before she went into bible college, we were PERFECT in and out of the bedroom. It's those times that keeps us going, otherwise I'm sure one of us would have called it quits ages ago.
> 
> Alte Dame, thanks for your understanding, I just wish there is a solution in all of this mess, right now I really wish I never lived, but I'm being pushed on with responsibilities and now I have a daughter to bear this pain for, at least until she turns 18, then maybe I'll kill myself then.


May be too tiresome to detail, but what happened at bible college?


----------



## RandomDude

> Being supportive is respecting her boundaries while enforcing your own.


And if the two is in direct conflict with each other? Then what?



> You are uber aware that her only need is apparently physical touch from you right? So you are trying to force her to have different needs or????


Her need is SEX, SEX SEX SEX 3X A FKING DAY I CAN'T DO THAT
NON-SEXUAL TOUCHES IS PHYSICAL TOUCH BUT SHE CAN'T SEE THAT



> Okay, I did go try and find some old threads. I found one, that I can not figure out how to link, that said you agreed to conflict resolution, and to not let things fester overnight. Which you did last night. So she is not the only one playing the victim here. You are saying one thing and completely disregarding it when it comes time to put it in action.


It was IMPOSSIBLE last night and hell it's STILL IMPOSSIBLE today to fix it in one night, this issue is just too big, even our MC disagrees we should do anything about it until we've both cooled off.


----------



## DawnD

RD, what happened that got you to walk in that room and start the conversation about abstinence??


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> And if the two is in direct conflict with each other? Then what?
> 
> then everyone has to give a little. On the specific sex issue, I agree your wife is going to have to adjust.
> 
> Her need is SEX, SEX SEX SEX 3X A FKING DAY I CAN'T DO THAT
> NON-SEXUAL TOUCHES IS PHYSICAL TOUCH BUT SHE CAN'T SEE THAT
> And you have to realize that you can not make her see that. But make things about YOU. YOU want non-sexual touches in the relationship. Be honest. Say I would like to come home and relax, snuggle (or whatever) and not be told that I can't touch you unless its with my d***. Don't try and get her to change what she wants, just get her to a point where she needs to meet your needs.
> 
> 
> It was IMPOSSIBLE last night and hell it's STILL IMPOSSIBLE today to fix it in one night, this issue is just too big, even our MC disagrees we should do anything about it until we've both cooled off.


 But you do need to realize that you did not stick to your arrangement and even went and removed her from the room. You broke that one, fess up to it and move on. There is always a "but" when it comes to keeping out word, but it never makes anything better.


----------



## RandomDude

alte Dame said:


> May be too tiresome to detail, but what happened at bible college?


It was years ago... we were a very young couple at this point, but we were complete lovebirds, we had complete transparency, honesty, was really open to each other, shared everything, our past, our dreams, our thoughts, our desires, our beliefs. I supported her in every way and so did she, when she told me she wanted to join bible college for 2 years so she can open up her own church to help women who been through her past I supported her.

Bad mistake...

This church in question already has controversy surrounding it due to its materialism and almost cult-like ways, but it's the biggest church in Sydney. Slowly she became more and more judgemental and intolerant, and as a result we just grew further and further apart. She has wised up a bit in terms of the judgements and intolerance but things have never really been the same since then.


----------



## RandomDude

DawnD said:


> But you do need to realize that you did not stick to your arrangement and even went and removed her from the room. You broke that one, fess up to it and move on. There is always a "but" when it comes to keeping out word, but it never makes anything better.


I broke that one and will break it again and again nowadays because right now I've realised absolutes are too rare for me to make such a rule like that. Some issues are just too big to contain in one night - like last night.



> RD, what happened that got you to walk in that room and start the conversation about abstinence??


I just told you... "Just an utter disgust with the whole situation and realising I have been submitting to her every whim when it comes to sex even with MC." Onwards from that



> then everyone has to give a little. On the specific sex issue, I agree your wife is going to have to adjust.


Which she won't because she didn't take it seriously until now and now is too late.



> And you have to realize that you can not make her see that. But make things about YOU. YOU want non-sexual touches in the relationship. Be honest. Say I would like to come home and relax, snuggle (or whatever) and not be told that I can't touch you unless its with my d***. Don't try and get her to change what she wants, just get her to a point where she needs to meet your needs.


I already realised this from last night, and I have been honest with her. She just doesn't seem to care because in her head it seems she always reckons I'm holding out when NO - some nights I actually DO want to just hold her and nothing else.


----------



## alte Dame

So, your wife was an escort before she met you & you two were happy, with a healthy sex life, until she had the bible college experience? And so, with this religiosity, she starts to desperately need sex from you to validate your love for her?

What connections do therapists make regarding this?


----------



## RandomDude

No the bible college experience didn't make her go all nympho. 

Marriage did


----------



## alte Dame

RandomDude said:


> No the bible college experience didn't make her go all nympho.
> 
> Marriage did


OK. So, what do the therapists say about this connection?


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> I broke that one and will break it again and again nowadays because right now I've realised absolutes are too rare for me to make such a rule like that. Some issues are just too big to contain in one night - like last night.
> 
> then you need to make that known and say you can not agree to the conflict resolution that you had previously agreed to. Tell her exactly what you said here.
> 
> I just told you... "Just an utter disgust with the whole situation and realising I have been submitting to her every whim when it comes to sex even with MC." Onwards from that
> So this was out of the blue? You just decided to make a demand to answer her demands? No fight happened or demand from her sparked this on that day??
> 
> 
> Which she won't because she didn't take it seriously until now and now is too late.
> You are speaking in past tense? Are you planning on leaving the marriage??
> 
> 
> I already realised this from last night, and I have been honest with her. She just doesn't seem to care because in her head it seems she always reckons I'm holding out when NO - some nights I actually DO want to just hold her and nothing else.


I do remember you saying during the dating days you cheated. Did she ever get counseling for the self esteem issues that came from that?? I also saw that your thread saying you only found her personality sexy caused a lot of damage.( from what you said in the thread) Have you realized that the same rules apply, and that these are things she will never be able to forget? just like the things she said that hurt you deeply, those did the same? I am sure you know that, just checking though. What are the chances of her doing IC??


----------



## RandomDude

alte Dame said:


> OK. So, what do the therapists say about this connection?


The connection is mostly from her past as an escort and her youth before that, my wife believed (and still believes somewhat) that church and giving her life to Christ was all she needed to fix herself, she has a warped view of men and MC has been dealing with her in this. I don't really know everything MC talks to my wife about however.



> I do remember you saying during the dating days you cheated. Did she ever get counseling for the self esteem issues that came from that?? I also saw that your thread saying you only found her personality sexy caused a lot of damage.( from what you said in the thread) Have you realized that the same rules apply, and that these are things she will never be able to forget? just like the things she said that hurt you deeply, those did the same? I am sure you know that, just checking though. What are the chances of her doing IC??


Well MC is her IC I guess, and yes I did cheat, wasn't really during the "dating days" more like the unofficially broken up days, and I got drunk, and had a ONS with a "friend", who another jealous "friend" snitched to my wife, and that was that. Yes she has done counselling (at the bidding of her parents) for that particular issue. The cheat is not that big a deal anymore really, I've confronted her about it, but she just tells me that she's not thinking about it so I shouldn't. We've come a LONG way since then.

As for that thread, yes I've also confronted her about it and dealt with it. She also knows and somewhat understands why I had to make myself think that way during those times as I was in a bad way in regards to guilt about abandoning my own people's future for my wife.



> So this was out of the blue? You just decided to make a demand to answer her demands? No fight happened or demand from her sparked this on that day??


She's always demanding, she's just been "nicer" about it and I tell myself that she's not.



> You are speaking in past tense? Are you planning on leaving the marriage??


Yes I am, I don't see anything else we can do, we've reached the end of the journey, I don't see any future anymore, she can't change, I can't change, best we move on and find someone else more akin to our needs. My wife may or may not feel the same way I don't know.



> then you need to make that known and say you can not agree to the conflict resolution that you had previously agreed to. Tell her exactly what you said here.


Well I posted that because that was my ideal, in reality we've kinda realised that already over time... I can't even believe some of the naive posts I made since I came on this forum actually


----------



## alte Dame

RandomDude said:


> Yes I am, I don't see anything else we can do, we've reached the end of the journey, I don't see any future anymore, she can't change, I can't change, best we move on and find someone else more akin to our needs.


You will be able to find someone more attuned to you, but your wife sounds broken (and I'm not talking about as a result of your conflagration). The elephant in the room that you know better than anyone is the connection between her escort past and the hysterical bonding lifestyle she's developed with you. This isn't a normal need that someone else can answer.

You sound understandably at the end of your rope. I hope she gets some real help & I hope that you can both find your ways out. The psychobabble that 'you can't fix her' is often very true, so you have my sympathy.


----------



## DawnD

alte Dame said:


> You will be able to find someone more attuned to you, but your wife sounds broken (and I'm not talking about as a result of your conflagration). The elephant in the room that you know better than anyone is the connection between her escort past and the hysterical bonding lifestyle she's developed with you. This isn't a normal need that someone else can answer.
> 
> You sound understandably at the end of your rope. I hope she gets some real help & I hope that you can both find your ways out. The psychobabble that 'you can't fix her' is often very true, so you have my sympathy.


I am sure her days as an escort have affected her, but I am also sure that her and RD have done a good amount of damage to each other. To blame just her past instead of their relationship as well would be foolish.


----------



## alte Dame

DawnD said:


> I am sure her days as an escort have affected her, but I am also sure that her and RD have done a good amount of damage to each other. To blame just her past instead of their relationship as well would be foolish.


Yes, I see that. For me, it's a very relative thing & RD sounds less damaged than his W. We're only hearing his version, though, I know.


----------



## RandomDude

I can only imagine the possibilities, out there again... I'll probably end up with a LD wife next time and find myself back here whining about completely the opposite thing. Just how my luck usually rolls when it comes to relationships, bah! 

But nah, I think I'm done with marriage for life, going to be breaking alot of promises... including promises to my daughter. How she sees me may drastically change if I choose this route of divorce. This is the bloody reason why I never wanted to get married, so much sh-t in your way just to GET OUT OF IT... we had our fun times, heartbreaking to think about it really, all reduced to this point - sex of all things. Never would have expected it all those years ago, still can't even believe it.

I need to get on with my life, still have my business now at least, so there are good things that marriage brought into my life I guess. Meh... guess it just ain't cut out for everyone. Going to be weird to have someone who knows you for the last 7 years just leave though... meh, have to be prepared for it.

Counselling soon... hope I can handle what might happen at counselling today, and good thing it's slow season too at work, if it's peak season I don't think I would be able to handle it! Heh

I don't like this feeling really, I feel indifferent towards my wife now, and she is probably the same way. That's the sign it's done I think...


----------



## alte Dame

People come back from the brink all the time. You owe it to one another to go to the counseling and see what develops, no? You never know.


----------



## Phenix70

RD,

Are you seeing a sex therapist too?
I have a feeling they would be beneficial in this situation.


----------



## RandomDude

Yeah, I'll hold off on the decision... for now, if she brings up the D word though in counselling, I don't know if I can stop myself from making the decision final

I've flipped the coin, now I feel nothing, I can think but I can't feel sh-t. I've become numb, it's such a strange freakin feeling (or non-feeling) and I haven't felt this way before not even the last time we almost divorced (for the same issue though with religion involved)

We're not talking at the moment we're saving it for counselling lest the house explodes again, no idea how she feels and I hate to admit it but at this point of time I don't even feel enough to care... does this make me a heartless mofo? I don't know anymore... I feel so dead and exhausted...

Meh... anyways we'll see how it goes, thanks though folks... even if I disagree with some of you know that without you guys I may be in a much worse state.

@Pheonix
Our MC is specialised with sex addiction but I don't think even she can save us from this, our dynamics are too fked to fix


----------



## Phenix70

I don't think you're a bad guy, I don't even think that what you said to your wife was terrible when you take it in context of what you've been dealing with.
It's apparent to me that you have reached your breaking point & now you're in the most dangerous emotional place for a marriage.
When someone reaches this point, it's like standing on the edge of a cliff, you either step back from the edge, or you take a step off the brink.
There are no other options, something has to give right now, limbo time is over.
I'm wishing you the best, let your MC know what has happened, maybe they can recommend a more focused program for your wife, something that could help her realize the scope of the situation.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> Yeah, I'll hold off on the decision... for now, if she brings up the D word though in counselling, I don't know if I can stop myself from making the decision final
> 
> I've flipped the coin, now I feel nothing, I can think but I can't feel sh-t. I've become numb, it's such a strange freakin feeling (or non-feeling) and I haven't felt this way before not even the last time we almost divorced (for the same issue though with religion involved)
> 
> We're not talking at the moment we're saving it for counselling lest the house explodes again, no idea how she feels and I hate to admit it but at this point of time I don't even feel enough to care... does this make me a heartless mofo? I don't know anymore... I feel so dead and exhausted...
> 
> Meh... anyways we'll see how it goes, thanks though folks... even if I disagree with some of you know that without you guys I may be in a much worse state.
> 
> @Pheonix
> Our MC is specialised with sex addiction but I don't think even she can save us from this, our dynamics are too fked to fix


You have both caused each other a lot of pain through the years. For some reason my sense are SCREAMING at me that this sexual appetite of hers is wrapped up in her self-esteem being low from the things you both have done to one another.


----------



## diwali123

I think she's addicted to seducing you. It's not just the sex, she loves having the power over you to change your mind. It's seriously heady stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

Ok... update, MC organised a routine where we can live our lives without getting in each other's way so we aren't in risk of being in each other's face at this point. My wife and I are in agreement about this; we both need our space else lest we end up in the sh-tter. MC strongly discourages any discussions at the moment.

To her (MC) eyes I was desperate as well as impatient, apparently MC believes my wife has made progress and has been serious about changing, and that I have to give her time to see results. She (MC) understands why I did what I did and is not saying that I was in the wrong but just wants me to give it a little more time. My wife has not mentioned the D word again yet, I'm still waiting for it, she seems indifferent now too.

Meh, heading off to work


----------



## RandomDude

Update again...

I'm really confused at the moment, I can't see any future with my wife anymore, I feel nothing when I see her... well mostly nothing now. 
In counselling I told MC that I felt nothing and my wife turned around and asked me to look at her and tell her that... and well, I couldn't. Maybe a part of me still cares for her, but is it love anymore? I don't know.
She has no idea I'm thinking about divorce for real and at the very least seperation (I don't know if she's thinking the same thing). Is it worth it?

We're calmer now and we should be ready for a civil discussion about this issue soon, maybe tonight. But I don't know...
If she does want to divorce then I know what to do... but if she doesn't want to divorce then how should I handle that scenario? How should I handle the situation tonight if we talk? What should I discuss with her? How to even fix all this? Meh, I hope she just tells me again "I've had enough" and then I can start the lengthy process of closing this chapter of my life

Is our marriage even worth saving? I really don't know
We have to start over... again =/


----------



## Lyris

I'm sad to read these updates. Although your relationship does sound weird and dysfunctional, it also sounds as though there's a lot of love there. Real love is difficult to find.

Maybe you've shut down out of depression or to protect yourself. I remember going through about a year where I couldn't feel much of anything for my husband, the man I'd loved for more than half my life. It was all still there, trapped beneath the ice, I couldn't get at it though. Numb. 

No need to decide anything now. Give the counselling a bit more time.


----------



## RandomDude

Looks like we'll be getting the abstinence after all, my wife isn't ready to talk; fair enough. Wonder if she's going to be out looking for some company especially with her uncontrollable drive and we're obviously not going to do anything together. Might tag her just to be safe.

Come to think of it, if she is going to cheat... if she would be willing to go that far, I don't think there's anything going to stop her from coming on here and reading all my threads. Bah! Oh well, nothing she doesn't already know anyway. I wonder if she's really going to do that, would make reconciliation if it's even possible - even more impossible if she does.


----------



## alte Dame

RandomDude said:


> Looks like we'll be getting the abstinence after all, my wife isn't ready to talk; fair enough. Wonder if she's going to be out looking for some company especially with her uncontrollable drive and we're obviously not going to do anything together. Might tag her just to be safe.
> 
> Come to think of it, if she is going to cheat... if she would be willing to go that far, I don't think there's anything going to stop her from coming on here and reading all my threads. Bah! Oh well, nothing she doesn't already know anyway. I wonder if she's really going to do that, would make reconciliation if it's even possible - even more impossible if she does.


Your wife's uncontrollable drive could very well be related to her feelings of love for you & cheating could be out of her scope right now.

It's not a bad idea, I think, for both of you to regroup.


----------



## Phenix70

alte Dame said:


> *Your wife's uncontrollable drive could very well be related to her feelings of love for you & cheating could be out of her scope right now.*
> 
> It's not a bad idea, I think, for both of you to regroup.


Agreed, especially the bolded.
If her love for you is tied to her drive, then going outside of your marriage to seek sex would be repulsive to her.
Has the source of her extreme drive been uncovered in MC?


----------



## lilith23

I have been through all pages of this topic, although I could only read it fast, since it's too much text. So I'm not sure if I'm understanding the whole situation well, but here's my thought:

Maybe she sees sex as a way of ensuring your love for her? She was an escort before, so she might have the idea that when a man is into a woman, he does sex with her often, and if it doesn't happen then it means he is losing interest in her. She might get this idea since as an escort, she might have met men that were only after sex, and that were only interested in her as long as she's desirable sexually.

So she might see how much you are interested in doing her equal to how much you're interested in her.

If this is true, then she might have trouble acknowledging any other signs of love as love, and only your interested in sex as what shows your interest in her. It's a really bad thing that happens to women who met too many men who are only interested in women for sex.

Also, the need for reassurance through sex might have worsen after marriage, since you married her coz she got pregnant. This makes an insecure woman think that you might not have continued with her or married her if she wasn't pregnant. In some cases, no matter what you say, you can't make her believe in otherwise, since marriage happened for pregnancy and you don't really have much ways to prove that you were not marrying her just coz she got pregnant.

She is too flooded with her insecurity, and all your displays of love that is not sex might seem like forced acts or she simply can't see them as acts that shows interest (like she does for sex).

Basically, she can only see sex as the only thing that can show if a man is still interested, and she can't understand your other actions of love as love. On the other hand, you don't want her to see you as sexual object so that was why you cut off sex (although the way you wrote your 1st post was a bit rough, maybe coz you wrote in while you were too angry... but it was a bit disrespectful to your wife, you might want to cool down and choose better ways of expressing your thoughts before posting).

When one of the couples is insecure, all the other person can do is to reassure her through action, while not submitting to what the other person wants that can cause suffering to the other. The other person has to try hard to understand the actions of the other too, understand his feelings too, so that she can finally change her own perception of things and finally get over the insecurities.

I'd say that you should not give in to sex, as this is actually not helpful for her. Then you keep trying to make her understand that you do love her (or else why would you do so many things and still is by her side?). Then explain her your feelings and what you also want of her (after all, you also want reassurance from her).
She on the other hand will have to try to understand that sex is not what shows interest in someone. If she doesn't want to lose you, she might first try to not force you to have sex, and then she might gradually understand that other expressions of love equals love too, and if she can finally pay attention after calming down, she might be able to slowly understand your actions as love for her.

If this is all true, she might just suffer the same if she meets another men, since she needs to understand that love is not just shown through sex.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I have not read all of these [email protected]#$% 

It almost seems a "*Separation*" is due....but can she mentally handle it ? So you both can work on yourselves... individually....

I mean, how would she react if you DIED... she'd have to come to grips... .. This would just be a temporary thing - with Hope at the end of the tunnel. The Love has always been there, that is what is so sad really... a marriage where you can't stand each other but can't live with each other either... toxic & dysfunctional but has more passion than many could even understand. Crazy ! The highs are TOO HIGH.... the lows too heart- wrenching. How to break this cycle.... 

I do wonder if the use of some calming meds could help her get some perspective during this time. 

Sounds like a Sex addiction and love addiction  >>>



> Sex addiction is described by the relationship counselling service, Relate, *as any sexual activity that feels out of control*. Sex addiction could involve sex with a partner, but it may also mean activities such as pornography, masturbation, visiting prostitutes or using chat lines.
> 
> For many people, these habits don't cause them a problem.
> However, *sex addicts are unable to control these urges and actions despite the problems they may cause in their relationships* and to their finances and professional lives.
> This addiction is similar to substance abuse because it is caused by the powerful chemical substances released during sex.
> 
> *Love addicts, on the other hand, become dependent on the emotional stability provided by romantic partners.** Love addicts often have low self-esteem and lack self-identity, and their addiction can result in obsessive, controlling behaviour.*
> The cause of love addictions and sex addictions is often rooted in childhood or adolescence. Early trauma, neglect or depression may be factors.
> 
> The consequences of sex addiction and love addiction are varied. Sex addicts and love addicts will typically have long-term relationship and intimacy problems, but the addiction can also affect them financially, professionally, physically and socially.
> 
> The recovery process for sex addicts and love addicts is similar to that of substance addictions. It involves identifying and changing behaviour that's painful and damaging.


----------



## LastUnicorn

RD I haven't read all of your posts in all threads, but something I've wondered for awhile now if your wife's problem with sex goes back to her childhood. Its entirely possible she was molested as a child, even an infant. She may never remember it, the mind blocks trauma out. 

It sounds to me that she equates her value to sex. So unless she is giving/receiving sex she, the person, has no value. Even to herself. 

I'd read a post of yours somewhere that you said you used to (still do?) bodily pick her up and take her to bed and take her even if she was saying no. That's rape. That she 'got into it' after awhile doesn't change the fact you were basically raping someone who already has severe issues with sex. You were just reaffirming her value, or lack thereof. This just reinforces to her that she is basically worthless unless she is doing something sexual.


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## sinnister

Your last update is consistent with what I have thought about your situation for quite some time.

I think your wife's drive is not really physical. It's an emotional need for her to have your love. On some level I think she feels that you're not really that into her. I'm not knocking you, just relaying an outside perspective here. And your own admition that you feel nothing pretty much solidifies that assessment IMO.


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## sandc

What made you fall in love with her in the first place?


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## RandomDude

Thanks guys for the replies, it's becoming more clear right now in regards to why she's so nympho - the analysis with this forum, with MC, and what my wife has told me so far is very consistent, and I guess I can understand it - sort of. Aside from her sex addiction however yes - she can be very manipulative by nature, which is what drove me to this point. She expects me to also handle that side of hers, but I've tried and I had enough of it.

Since quitting alcohol I've had changes, some better and some for worse. I'm much more serious about our marital issues and much more capable of making difficult decisions.

As for handling seperation/divorce, and whether she's mentally able to handle it... well, she used the D word that night, so I'm sure she's gathered at least some strength to cope with the possibility. I think... we may be falling out of love at this point, well I know I am, don't know about her.

As for the possibility of her cheating, well, she's obviously addicted to this "high" that comes with sex. Now that she knows she can no longer get it from me, I don't think there's much stopping her from outsourcing now, especially if she's feeling the same way I am - indifferent (but I don't know, we're still not talking). Personally I'm more concerned right now about ammunition for divorce then her own fidelity at this point... hate to say it.

I'm planning to hire a PI, I can easily afford it, just have to pay by cash obviously (but I'm sure we can have other arrangements - they must be used to this) since my wife still has access to our financial records, just to track her activities during this period.


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## RandomDude

sandc said:


> What made you fall in love with her in the first place?


For the first 2 years of knowing each other we actually had no issues (not with each other at least). We had a yearlong friendship and we got really close, to the point we became best mates. We had issues sure - but they were ALL external issues; family/friends/religion/culture/society/etc...

When we got together our relationship I had thought was unbreakable, we've always had passion but our dynamics back then were really solid. I fell in love with her because of her individualism, cultural independence, and her strength during those days. She was confident, strong, and could stand her ground with me, stubborn but reasonable, and she's always been smart. We could have the deepest conversations all night and keep each other up. We just clicked, I never found anyone who I can talk so much with.

But during those days she was always by my side, and me by hers. Those were our "honeymoon" days. We had our good times...


----------



## sandc

RandomDude said:


> For the first 2 years of knowing each other we actually had no issues (not with each other at least). We had a yearlong friendship and we got really close, to the point we became best mates. We had issues sure - but they were ALL external issues; family/friends/religion/culture/society/etc...
> 
> When we got together our relationship I had thought was unbreakable, we've always had passion but our dynamics back then were really solid. I fell in love with her because of her individualism, cultural independence, and her strength during those days. She was confident, strong, and could stand her ground with me, stubborn but reasonable, and she's always been smart. We could have the deepest conversations all night and keep each other up. We just clicked, I never found anyone who I can talk so much with.
> 
> But during those days she was always by my side, and me by hers. Those were our "honeymoon" days. We had our good times...


But now neither of you wants to help the other? I know you can only do what you can do but is she salvageable? If she is then this is what that whole for better for worse thing is about. But then I don't want to assume those words were in your marriage vows.


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## RandomDude

I don't know, I won't know until she talks to me...

And I don't know how I feel anymore, like I mentioned before, I feel indifferent - though when she asked me to look at her and say that, I couldn't - so maybe I just can't fall out of love so quickly, but it's getting there, definitely... I think. I don't know =/


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## sandc

You couldn't live without her at one time. And she you.

Take some time and list out her positive qualities and her negative qualities. List all the things (and people) you would not have if she were out of your life.


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## RandomDude

I wonder if that's even going to be a good idea, what if I do that, and realise that I still love her... I don't know if I would be able to make a difficult decision unless I remain hardened. She has given me my daughter... but I don't know...

EDIT: Meh, alright, just had a think about it... I no longer see her as the woman I fell in love with. I see all the positives on one hand, the woman she WAS, and all the negatives, the woman she is now.

She never used to be a nympho during our honeymoon days, we flirted we teased, we had a lot of fun, nothing was routine, it was all fiery passion. Now... it's like that woman is dead, I'm left with nothing but a shell who calls herself my wife.

Probably why I couldn't tell her I'm indifferent when I looked at her, is the unfortunate fact that this woman still possesses the deep eyes that the woman I used to love had, so I guess... I'm still in love with the woman who died.


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## RandomDude

DAMN IT... maybe I should stop listening to sad songs on youtube trying to make myself have some feeling again, but just realising the above, I REALLY miss that woman I fell in love with, and I've tried for so many years hoping that deep down inside she's still there. Funny, I feel more when I look back and remember, but nothing now.

No Mercy - Where Do You Go - YouTube
Where did you go... *sighs*


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## sandc

Sure would like to see you fight to resurrect her but since I can't reach through this screen and make you... Just hate to see a family break up. I feel saddest for your daughter.

But... some things just can't be fixed.


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## sandc

Men fight for those whom then love. I'll leave it at that.


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## RandomDude

Think she's long dead and too late for resurrection, died 5 yrs ago when she went into that accursed bible college. But of course, I was being supportive all the way those days, so I said ok sure, go ahead, I'll always be by your side... never expected to lose her.

Good things never last, reminds me of stories of widowed folks, who find partners in the same likeness of their wives... I've been fking nothing but her likeness for years, when in truth I've lost the woman I love so many years ago.

Just wish I can turn back time


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## TiggyBlue

Since mc started has she been any effort? had things improved even slightly?


----------



## RandomDude

She just changed tactics, nothing changed either then her style of coercing me into bed. Still unhappy with sex, still moody about it, still rejecting anything non-sexual, still can't touch her unless I'm going to do it lest I would be "hurting" her and "leading her on"... pffft

Well... ok to be fair, when she's in her better moods then sure, then it gets back to normal a few days later. What p-sses me off too is remembering when I told her about my plans for us to renew our vows and give her the wedding we couldn't really have in the past, I didn't even care about it... but I remembered all those years ago how she wanted to have a dream wedding so fking much, I've never forgotten. Did she even give a sh-t? Nope

Don't want it, fine, I'll give my love to someone else. Someone who can actually appreciate a man who takes the time to get the one he loves all jiddy with butterflies. She needs a pornstar as a husband, not a man who loves her.


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## TiggyBlue

Have you been doing mc for long?


----------



## alte Dame

I take it that the bible college sparked permanent changes in her character/personality that you don't like.


----------



## Cosmos

> I didn't threaten her I just made a decision and stuck with it. I did it in a calm way until she fking exploded.


Therein lies the problem. _You_ made a decision that should have been discussed and mutually agreed upon.


----------



## RandomDude

We're still not comfortable with dealing with this issue at present, well my wife ain't, I'm ready for whatever comes. I wonder what she must be thinking... she seems much more controlled then the few nights ago obviously, but also a bit cold.

I think we broke each other


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## Phenix70

RandomDude said:


> We're still not comfortable with dealing with this issue at present, well my wife ain't, I'm ready for whatever comes. I wonder what she must be thinking... she seems much more controlled then the few nights ago obviously, but also a bit cold.
> 
> *I think we broke each other*



I'm sorry RD, I hope that the two of you can find your way back to each other.
It seems that the two of you both have the same goal, to "fix" your marriage, but just can't seem to find the same path to reach your goal.
Have you asked your wife point blank what it is that she wants from you?
Or vice versa? 
Or how the two of you should achieve what you each want?


----------



## working_together

I'm really not sure what to make of her behavior. She says she wasn't sexually abused or molested. Ok. She was an escort, and obviously used for men's pleasure, that's got have a huge impact. But is it enough to lead to her behavior? I'm not so sure, of course it'll screw anyone up, but, not to where your wife is at.

I disagree that your wife feels as though you don't love her, or you're not giving enough to her, and therefore she kind of tries to win you over with all that sex. She knows you don't want it as much as you do, you've said so many times. Why is she not getting that. Does she not realize that sex 3x a day is not normal, does she not speak to other women to get a sense of what goes on in a marriage sexually??? She seems so "out of it" not in touch with reality. My sense is that she is very immature, very insecure, and is at a point in her life where she is not happy with herself. I think she needs some intense individual therapy for sure, and not to take this issue lightly, but she needs to get a job, get tired. Your daughter is at school all day, what is she doing with herself??

I agree the situation could have been handled differently. I think you should have stuck to your guns about reducing the sex, and maybe intitiated it once a day to start, then every other day, and just keep it at that. I wouldn't have verbalized this too much, she is very sensitive around this issue. But, I would have expressed my love for her in different ways, and I know you say you do with the cuddling, but I mean, expressing it through words and actions. Taking her out for a nice dinner, go for a pic nic, a long drive, movies. And doing it over the top as she does for the sex, it may take her mind off the need for sex. 

Other than that? I'm worried about her excessive need, and the fact that the two of you aren't speaking, she has this crazy need, and I fear she just might go out and do something foolish, just like an addict who is cut off and has no money.

good luck


----------



## DTO

RandomDude said:


> Agreed, I'm not touching this problem anymore, I can't win this battle, that's if things can ever get back to normal after last night. We haven't had a fight like that for a really long time, and it's also the first time she used the D word on me - which really shoke me up something stupid.
> 
> After MC it was apparent that we are just too heated to deal with this issue with each other at the moment. Life must go on so we're avoiding each other for now, give each other some space.


Avoiding each other until things cool down is the right approach. Avoiding this issue forever is the wrong approach, unless you are content with ending your marriage and moving on without your wife. If you are going to coexist happily you need to overcome her issue and your reaction to it.

Also, I'm concerned about you putting it in terms of "winning". This is not a contest about either of you prevailing over the other. It should be, again, about you two coming to a place where you can co-exist happily and doing the personal growth necessary to get to that place.

OTOH, if you can't grow enough as a person to handle these issues as well as can be done, you have indeed lost.


----------



## DavidWYoung

I thought that you were drinking that french stuff called "Abstinence"? are you saying that you do not want to ***c you wife? Are you not right in the head? Of course you have to make love to your wife, if not , they go BOOM! What are you thinking? You really did not say" Honey, I am not going to ***c you untill I feel like it! This is a joke right, a troll or a gobbilen? Are you drinking like I did? Do I have to explain what you have to do now?


----------



## RandomDude

> I agree the situation could have been handled differently. I think you should have stuck to your guns about reducing the sex, and maybe intitiated it once a day to start, then every other day, and just keep it at that.


As I mentioned before repeatedly, I've already done that and more.



> Your daughter is at school all day, what is she doing with herself??


She's been living it up and whenever I try to "push her" out the door to get back into the workforce she brings up how she wants another kid.



> But, I would have expressed my love for her in different ways, and I know you say you do with the cuddling, but I mean, expressing it through words and actions. Taking her out for a nice dinner, go for a pic nic, a long drive, movies. And doing it over the top as she does for the sex, it may take her mind off the need for sex.


I did, then she complained whenever I did it, says I "lead her on" and that I "tease" her and end up hurting and rejecting her. If I don't want sex, everything else to her is not the "love" she wants.



> Other than that? I'm worried about her excessive need, and the fact that the two of you aren't speaking, she has this crazy need, and I fear she just might go out and do something foolish, just like an addict who is cut off and has no money.


I've got that covered, I wonder if she got me tagged as well, thats if she even cares. I sure know I don't at this point, I just need ammunition if we are to divorce.



> Have you asked your wife point blank what it is that she wants from you?
> Or vice versa?
> Or how the two of you should achieve what you each want?


Quality time 2hrs at least a day and sex in the morning, during my lunch break if possible and/or after dinner and before bed. All I want for her is to stop demanding sex and get out there working instead of spending her time spending money, beauty treatments and seeing her friends. Sure she takes care of the house, but our daughter is in school now and I've timed the length of time it takes to clean house myself - I work in hospitality so my wife and I have already established a system to keep everything neat and tidy so we don't have to spend all day cleaning it.



> Avoiding each other until things cool down is the right approach. Avoiding this issue forever is the wrong approach, unless you are content with ending your marriage and moving on without your wife. If you are going to coexist happily you need to overcome her issue and your reaction to it.
> 
> Also, I'm concerned about you putting it in terms of "winning". This is not a contest about either of you prevailing over the other. It should be, again, about you two coming to a place where you can co-exist happily and doing the personal growth necessary to get to that place.
> 
> OTOH, if you can't grow enough as a person to handle these issues as well as can be done, you have indeed lost.


I meant the "winning" as in "I can't win"; AKA nothing I do will ever help this situation.

I doubt we can avoid this issue forever, we're still under the same roof.


----------



## RandomDude

Sad thing is that if she actually just went along for a few days things wouldn't be like this, I'm so fking horny right now but what to do? Unlike our other fights though looks like makeup sex is simply out of the question. It's not like anger where it can be channeled into sexual energy, this is indifference, disgust, disappointment... these things can never be solved via makeup sex.


----------



## DiZ

RandomDude said:


> UPDATE: Due to misunderstandings I advise any new posters to at least read the first few pages before jumping to conclusions. I understand where they are coming from, and I'm not going to edit anything of this original post because it expresses exactly how I felt yesterday morning
> 
> Ok this is fkin serious... I don't even know where to start...
> 
> My wife and I just had a HUGE fking fight last night with her crying her guts out and I almost had to gag her because our daughter came running out crying as well TWICE during the night (my wife was so fking loud and wouldn't stop), right now I'm at home and I can't go to work for obvious reasons. It's pissing me off and tearing me apart at the same time watching her like this.
> 
> Ok from the beginning... after putting my daughter to sleep I joined my wife and was going to have a "light" night with her, just mucking around, laugh and have a bit of a fun time but then I thought... nah, might as well tell her my decision, get it out of my head. So I let her know that we are going to try some "abstinence" because it's obvious that we're still not getting anywhere with sexual boundaries and how she still equates sex to love. She defended herself, and tried to convince me calmly that she's doing her best and that I should give her time not impose such a thing on us when there's no need to and that she hasn't demanded anything, and that if I don't want sex tonight it's fine by her. I didn't answer her when she was curious about the length of this "abstinence", guess I wanted to test her abit...
> 
> But I stood my ground and told her that the decision is final. I did tell her that I appreciate that she's been making an effort for us but that I feel this is very important for us until we can get a handle on things. Alright, no fight, got ready for bed, then BOOM...
> 
> Hell I can't remember even half the sh-t that happened and the crap I do remember is all over the place from her telling me that she does so much for me and all she ever wants from me is for me to love her, and that she tries so hard to make me happy, to be a good wife, and that I never stop breaking her heart, and that I always try to sabotage our marriage, and yada yada yada, more BS along those lines... I mostly just listened to her ramble on, and reminded her again and again that I'm not changing my freakin mind.
> 
> She lashed out at the modem (accusing TAM and the net), spat her venom about our counsellor, "interrogated" me about who I've been talking to, who I'm "cheating" on her with (I laughed at her at that), what made me make such a decision, hell she came up with alot of really random BS last night. It would be interesting if she didn't lose control and look like she was about to kill herself or something. But that was just stage one.
> 
> Later, she was weeping, repeating herself and crying and crying. Then she lashed out at me again, stage 2, said she can't take this anymore and that she has enough, used the D word, and that if I don't want sex she's going to find someone else who can satisfy her (the NERVE!), I told her FINE, challenged and dared her to do it, but that I was not going to change my mind. One thing she NEVER learns, threaten me and I say BRING IT ON, it's fking reflex - and I WONT CARE, NO ONE THREATENS ME. Then she pleaded with me not to go and that she's sorry, that she went too far (TOO LATE!!!) WTF?! Yada yada yada she pleaded some more and I just ignored her at this point. She did some serious damage last night.
> 
> The other few stages were pretty much repeats and her not giving up and leaving me alone, followed me all the way to my man-cave, made it difficult for me to even prepare my sofa bed, then kept me awake all night. Eventually we had silence, we didn't say a word to each other. She was holding my hand all night telling me sorry and whatever the fk. She kept shaking me trying to prevent me from sleeping telling me that she wants to hear that I'm not going to leave her - it's frankly pathetic.
> 
> So I pulled her off my bed, kicked her out of my cave, and locked the door (actually looking back that was pretty funny lol). Now I don't know whether or not the whole strict sexual boundary thing is a good idea or not but her reaction last night has proven to me that this issue is far more serious then I had thought and that I was right to doubt that she would be happy with sex that isn't 3x a day. *sighs*
> 
> If I had continued to be nice the irony is that this problem could have been so much worse considering the SHEER amount of anger and resentment that came out last night. Imagine if I had let it fester? SH-T! Sheez, and people wonder why I poke her to get her to explode from time to time (and not the playful poke either) - this I guess, is her "explosion" after not being "safely exploded" for some time.
> 
> The house feels like it just got ravaged by carpet bombing. I wonder if some aspects of my past behaviour right now actually had a valid reason for them. My throat is fking raw atm... bleh, need to go for a drive and get some honey but NOOOO... my wife needs supervision. This sux
> 
> I do NOT know what to do or how to think or how to feel at the moment... =/
> Frankly she disgusts me at this point, it's rather pathetic, what happened to that strong woman that I married? Now she's a little girl begging and begging to have her way or else.


You are a jerk. I do not blame her for acting the way she did. You just more or less told her you don't love her. She needs to leave you.


----------



## RandomDude

I always found it curious how it's always impossible for women to understand men who snapped and forced to harden their heart.


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## alte Dame

When you have such intractable issues that come to a head in a blowout like the one you and your W had, it takes a huge toll. It can take a long time for the noise in your head to resolve to real thoughts that you can make sense of.

If the MC wants you to take some time, this is probably something that you both need. You sound like you feel pretty indifferent toward your W right now, but this could change as you get your bearings. Time will tell, quite literally, imo.

Anybody reading through this would think that something had to give in your marriage, so bringing it to a head achieves that at the very least.


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## RandomDude

Well, it was either this, or to avoid her and not say anything - just let her hit rock bottom without even knowing why - like Mavash's husband did (which worked it seems), or to allow myself to continue being treated like nothing but a c--k and a wallet.

All other alternatives have already been tried and failed, for the last 4 years. I didn't even notice myself hardening until a few days ago, wondered how the hell I could feel so numb.

@Alte Dame

I'm feeling more and more dead when it comes to my feelings for her the more the days go by, by the time we both get our heads on straight it might be the time when our feelings for each other are ziltch

I'm already making plans for divorce and going for legal advice soon. Just to know where I stand. I never thought even I could harden up like this and so fast, I've never done this since I was 12 left on the streets when I HAD to harden up to survive. But even then I felt the pain... this time, I feel nothing.

It's quite disturbing actually, I don't really feel human and I'm even feeling guilty not feeling anything!!!


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## RandomDude

So you think all of this is just one big drama? And that I'm addicted to it? That I actually WANTED this to happen?

Well, thanks so much for your "insight" Trenton... pffft


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## RandomDude

At one time I was touched by your faith in us Trenton, and it was you who made me believe that things would be fine, that I should calm down and not stress too much, that we've been through worse, that we can solve anything as we have solved so many other impossibles in the past... but during those times I still felt something.

For years we've avoided the D word no matter how difficult the fights went, but now we have both used it, and worse. I don't even know if I should be thanking you for your support/advice, or to be p-ssed off that you think we can even solve this issue when there doesn't seem to be any other solution either then at the very least a seperation.


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## alte Dame

I think this is a way that PTSD develops. You can only take so much pain, so the brain shuts down to protect you. That's why I say you need time. Right now you don't feel much of anything because if you did, your psyche couldn't handle it.

You may well decide that you need to divorce, but that decision will show itself as you begin to recover from the debacle.

Your situation is definitely dramatic, but you have my sympathy for it. I can't imagine that this sort of drama is anything someone would seek.


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## RandomDude

Well, guess the MC knows what she's doing then... imagine if we had such a fight like this but we didn't have MC - it was a challenge by itself even getting her to take it seriously enough to come to MC with me 2 months ago to fix this stupid sex issue.

The house would have been leveled by now, at least life still goes on eh? Meh, think I'm going out with a few mates but I really don't want to go back to alcohol again. Hmmm... maybe THAT will get me to start feeling again, or may just make me go berserk.

I'm surprised I'm even coping with all of this without alcohol despite the fact that my emotions shut down and I still can't feel sh-t with my wife. I think you're right about the brain shutting down to protect me.


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## alte Dame

It's what can happen with traumatic experiences. 

I stopped drinking, too & know the feeling that it can make it both better and worse.


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## RandomDude

Update...

Ok I just got a msg from my mate so I decided to follow up... found out that it seems that my wife has pretty much sold me out in church which I guess can be expected. Never really cared about that circle though except for a few of them. And she has her outlet, I have mine. At least my outlet doesn't tarnish her reputation... pffft

Apparently she's not exactly mouthing off but I laughed at him, how does he expect me to believe that? Ok, she may have just needed prayer or whatever, but I know what they do in prayer meetings, they tell EVERYTHING and I doubt my wife has the capacity to be fair at this point

After all this think I would have to purge my social circle and split it. As of this moment our social circle is still interjoined... BAH!


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## diwali123

How did she sell you out exactly? 

What did MC suggest for you to do to live apart but in the same house?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf

Been kinda following this story of yours. Hope you guys work out whatever is best for the both of you. I feel for ya. You two are in a tough spot. Just wanted to say good luck to you both.


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## RandomDude

Update...

My wife asked me last night if I'm ready to talk, I told her I don't know exactly what there is to talk about until we get back to MC tomorrow, as we know what to do with the house and finances. She told me that she needs to know where do we stand, I told her I have absolutely no fking clue. She wouldn't let me take my eyes off her as we were talking though, probably so she can read me... meh, but I did tell her at least that I'm not making any decisions yet and I don't know what came over me but...

I apologised to her about making that decision without consulting her about it. She was surprised to say the least, and she apologised for her behaviour and her words that night. Anyways we're back to semi-talking terms. I guess this is good, small baby steps in rebuilding communication even if we're not going anywhere as - she did shared her own feelings that she is unsure about us now. I wasn't expecting much, but I finally felt something! My heart just sank and I felt relieved at the same time on that one moment when she told me that.

She was honest so I had to be, told her that I've also had enough, I didn't want to get into the details that I'm falling out of love and whatever cause I dread if she chucks another fit but I can tell she's not proud of her behaviour that night and she said so herself. Only told her what she needed to know. Irony really, because only NOW, are we actually on the same fking page, sort of.

I don't know if we're going to give up, but looks like only time will tell. Will the feelings come back? Almost seven years... I don't think we'll ever feel it again after this unless we both at least seperate. I HATE THIS... if it's something like "I don't love you anymore and I want out" then I can handle it and go "done!" and focus on moving on.

But now I just realised this is going to be just outright painful putting up with her during this course of seperation when there's still that flicker of hope making it difficult to close this chapter of my life.

@Diwali123

By mouthing off about me to all our mates in that circle, I didn't confront her last night about it, just annoyed really.


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## Summer4744

Random dude. I know you realize this already, but cutting her off was a mistake. Her view, because of her past, is that sex is how people connect. By cutting her off she thought you no longer loved her.

Have you ever thought that what she really wants is not her needs to be met, but for yours to be met? That since she equates sex with intimacy she really wants to see you satisfied several times a day so she knows her man is pleased?

I know you are already satisfied with the sex you are getting, but her past is such that she needs constant confirmation that you love her and are satisfied with her. And her proof is in how much sex she gives you.

What you need to do is start to show her that she can satisfy you in a non sexual way too. And that sometimes these non sexual ways can be more powerfull than sex. If you deny her sex you will be taking away her crutch. 

So I would continue having sex with her so she knows you love her, but start showing how much you appreciate and love her when she does other things like cook for you, or takes care of your daughter, or gives you a massage. If she does these things for you reward her with more intimacy, more attention, and more sex.

Your wife sounds like someone who is less of a nympho, than someone who needs constant reinforcement that she is loved and appreciated.
I know you may have tried to show she is loved like this in the past but she is a special case, which you did know about when you married her.

As far as her threatening an affair or a divorce, her later actions show more that she was just testing you. It was more a cry for help than anything.


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## RandomDude

I've told her time and time again that I don't want it 3x a freakin day and if she really wants me satisfied she would have listened to me and not to mention not reject me for every non-sexual thing I do unless it comes with a promise of sex at the end.

Anyways I doubt even if I initiate now she would put out not to mention I'm not seeing her sexually despite how horny I am right now, we are rather cold towards each other now and it's not anger, it's disappointment, pain, hurt, disgust, and indifference - makeup sex is out of the question in our current situation. At this rate it's going to be out of the question for some time.

Before marriage she was never like this, never demanding when it comes to sex, appreciated all the romance sweeping her off her feet and finding new ways in making her melt. I enjoyed it, but in marriage she just doesn't even give a sh-t unless I put out. I feel like that it's all she wants and that doesn't satisfy me at all.



> As far as her threatening an affair or a divorce, her later actions show more that she was just testing you. It was more a cry for help than anything.


What do you mean?


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## Summer4744

RD I understand that you have tried in the past to let her know she is appreciated. A normal woman would get the picture.

But your wife has baggage, baggage you knew about before you were married. I think what may have happened is the deeper into the marriage she got, the more vulnerable she felt and needed more validation through sex.

I think the problem is trying to tell your wife this through logic. I know I will get a lot of hate for saying this, but woman do to operate on logic. What you told her probably just flew over her head. What woman respond to is emotion.

I'm not trying to attack you bro, but knowing how she is you were the one who went with the nuclear option. She was willing to compromise with you at first. But when you tried to shut her down completely How did you expect her to act? She hasn't developed other outlets to feel appreciated.

You may have tried in the past, but from what I have read in your other threads you tried to talk it out with her. You tried to reason with her like she was your business partner, not your wife. If you want her to feel loved without sex than you need to show her, not tell her. You need to start treating her like a little kid and not like a mature well rounded adult because she is not one. 


I can understand you wanting to give up on the marriage if she is too far gone or if it is just not worth the trouble, but I have read your other threads and I think you can save this marriage. You just have to understand where she is coming from.


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## RandomDude

abitlost said:


> I do realize patience has been going on for along time (and can totally understand how you have become so frustrated from the situation), but is this first time your wife agreed to see a mc or any form of help?
> Mc has only been going on for a couple of months, it takes a long time to plant a seed and even longer for the seed to start to grow, is the mc seen as to fix your wife's problems?


Yes it's the first time, and she's been b-tching about it since. I can see where MC is coming from but when she continues to b-tch about it despite everything I've done to support her through this - it just ain't going to work.



> RD,
> Back down just a bit here...... think back to when you were drinking. Ìf you weren`t so selfish and loved your family, you would have stopped drinking immediately, no questions asked.
> 
> It`s not that simple sometimes. It was your crutch. Sex is hers.
> Take that away from her, and she HAS to have a method to cope, to feel loved.
> 
> Doesn`t mean she is selfish. It means she can`t fix this by herself.
> 
> Stick to your guns. Boundaries.


Well ok, let's say in this instance my blasted instrument is her booze. Now looking back at all the times when I struggled with my addiction -> sure, it took me a while, I've slipped a few times, went straight back into it, but then I woke up, and went "meh fk it" and that was that.

Now, in relating this to my wife's addiction... unfortunately my instrument is not booze. Alcohol does not care if you abuse it, my instrument however - DOES. Now I've already put out over the last fking 4 years even if I don't want it. Not to mention no matter how dull it becomes she still won't let me go each session until she's satisfied and when I don't perform up to her expectations she b-tches about it!!!!

Now imagine you've to deal with this 3500-4500x already over the last 4 years. Then try to establish boundaries (ok sure, what I did was fked, but as you can see I've gone desperate)... only to have this happen...


----------



## RandomDude

Anyway I don't know anymore... at this point I want out of all of this

Even if my wife does change her attitude with MC and with this issue, it may be too late. And even if I change my own attitude and try again I don't think I have any love left for her to even inspire me to do it. I still feel numb, even when she made my heart sink by telling me she's unsure about us now - it was only a moment of feeling.


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## Jeapordy

RD,
I think you did the right thing. If you were a woman, everyone would be throwing out words like "rape" and "abuse". They would tell you to leave immediately and not allow your spouse to abuse you in these ways.
Because you are a man, you don't get the same support. That's wrong and hypocritical.
You did a 180. You took control because she did not respond to MC, and rationale discussions and requests. 180s are unilateral by definition to get the other person's attention and show them that you mean business. The other point of a 180 is to show the other person that there are consequences for their actions.
I've been reading your posts for months and I was always shocked at how often you stated that you loved her no matter what and nothing she could do would change that. Now I see that you were trying to convince yourself of that because you knew this day was coming. 
Just like an alcoholic, she needs to hit bottom and admit she has a problem before you have any chance of a normal relationship with her. If she does hit bottom and truly wants to change, I think you can love her again.


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## RandomDude

Thanks bro, though the 180 may have broken us. But I guess this is needed, there was simply no other way, it was just going to end badly one way or another.

My wife has yet to mention anything in regards to divorce/seperation again, MC is currently avoiding that topic, capitalising on our last talk, and focusing on rebuilding communication channels again... I'm waiting for the right time to put seperation on the table, I wonder if my wife is too, considering she's already unsure about us now.

The more the days go by in this state, the more I want out, but the law here dictates one year seperation at least, just want to get it over and done with but I can't. All the hell to pay just to get her out of my life. Why the hell did I even agree to marriage in the first place...

Oh thats right, I was young, stupid, and in a panic (pregnancy)... life sux now. Things will never go back to normal now and come to think of it normal SUX and nothing will get better. We've also removed each other's belongings in each other's rooms and sleeping in seperate beds. Now I can be cruel and take our TV out and put it in my man-cave (almost everything in the house is mine) - I have nothing but my PC/sound system here, but meh, she might go bonkers again.

I wish I can just take my daughter out too without my wife, but it's best for her if we give her some illusion that our lifestyle isn't going to change too fast, so bleh, have to put up with her then too. As well as dinner...

Damn... for some reason I am really hating my wife something bad...
At least I'm feeling something right? But why so much hate and disgust? I don't believe myself but I can't help what I'm feeling... BAH!


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## RandomDude

Damn it... right now I can't even think about eating anything she cooks


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## Jeapordy

I think a cooling off period is a good thing. Your nerves are raw and your perspective is a bit clouded with anger. You need to clear your head and see things as they are, not as they look in the fog of war. 
I can't see how she would go from the love of your life, to the devil within such a short time. So my guess is that she has always been something in between and how you see her depends on what glasses you are looking through.


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## Amyd

RandomDude said:


> UPDATE: Due to misunderstandings I advise any new posters to at least read the first few pages before jumping to conclusions. I understand where they are coming from, and I'm not going to edit anything of this original post because it expresses exactly how I felt yesterday morning
> 
> Ok this is fkin serious... I don't even know where to start...
> 
> My wife and I just had a HUGE fking fight last night with her crying her guts out and I almost had to gag her because our daughter came running out crying as well TWICE during the night (my wife was so fking loud and wouldn't stop), right now I'm at home and I can't go to work for obvious reasons. It's pissing me off and tearing me apart at the same time watching her like this.
> 
> Ok from the beginning... after putting my daughter to sleep I joined my wife and was going to have a "light" night with her, just mucking around, laugh and have a bit of a fun time but then I thought... nah, might as well tell her my decision, get it out of my head. So I let her know that we are going to try some "abstinence" because it's obvious that we're still not getting anywhere with sexual boundaries and how she still equates sex to love. She defended herself, and tried to convince me calmly that she's doing her best and that I should give her time not impose such a thing on us when there's no need to and that she hasn't demanded anything, and that if I don't want sex tonight it's fine by her. I didn't answer her when she was curious about the length of this "abstinence", guess I wanted to test her abit...
> 
> But I stood my ground and told her that the decision is final. I did tell her that I appreciate that she's been making an effort for us but that I feel this is very important for us until we can get a handle on things. Alright, no fight, got ready for bed, then BOOM...
> 
> Hell I can't remember even half the sh-t that happened and the crap I do remember is all over the place from her telling me that she does so much for me and all she ever wants from me is for me to love her, and that she tries so hard to make me happy, to be a good wife, and that I never stop breaking her heart, and that I always try to sabotage our marriage, and yada yada yada, more BS along those lines... I mostly just listened to her ramble on, and reminded her again and again that I'm not changing my freakin mind.
> 
> She lashed out at the modem (accusing TAM and the net), spat her venom about our counsellor, "interrogated" me about who I've been talking to, who I'm "cheating" on her with (I laughed at her at that), what made me make such a decision, hell she came up with alot of really random BS last night. It would be interesting if she didn't lose control and look like she was about to kill herself or something. But that was just stage one.
> 
> Later, she was weeping, repeating herself and crying and crying. Then she lashed out at me again, stage 2, said she can't take this anymore and that she has enough, used the D word, and that if I don't want sex she's going to find someone else who can satisfy her (the NERVE!), I told her FINE, challenged and dared her to do it, but that I was not going to change my mind. One thing she NEVER learns, threaten me and I say BRING IT ON, it's fking reflex - and I WONT CARE, NO ONE THREATENS ME. Then she pleaded with me not to go and that she's sorry, that she went too far (TOO LATE!!!) WTF?! Yada yada yada she pleaded some more and I just ignored her at this point. She did some serious damage last night.
> 
> The other few stages were pretty much repeats and her not giving up and leaving me alone, followed me all the way to my man-cave, made it difficult for me to even prepare my sofa bed, then kept me awake all night. Eventually we had silence, we didn't say a word to each other. She was holding my hand all night telling me sorry and whatever the fk. She kept shaking me trying to prevent me from sleeping telling me that she wants to hear that I'm not going to leave her - it's frankly pathetic.
> 
> So I pulled her off my bed, kicked her out of my cave, and locked the door (actually looking back that was pretty funny lol). Now I don't know whether or not the whole strict sexual boundary thing is a good idea or not but her reaction last night has proven to me that this issue is far more serious then I had thought and that I was right to doubt that she would be happy with sex that isn't 3x a day. *sighs*
> 
> If I had continued to be nice the irony is that this problem could have been so much worse considering the SHEER amount of anger and resentment that came out last night. Imagine if I had let it fester? SH-T! Sheez, and people wonder why I poke her to get her to explode from time to time (and not the playful poke either) - this I guess, is her "explosion" after not being "safely exploded" for some time.
> 
> The house feels like it just got ravaged by carpet bombing. I wonder if some aspects of my past behaviour right now actually had a valid reason for them. My throat is fking raw atm... bleh, need to go for a drive and get some honey but NOOOO... my wife needs supervision. This sux
> 
> I do NOT know what to do or how to think or how to feel at the moment... =/
> Frankly she disgusts me at this point, it's rather pathetic, what happened to that strong woman that I married? Now she's a little girl begging and begging to have her way or else.


How much time do you spend online daily?


----------



## COGypsy

RandomDude said:


> Damn it... right now I can't even think about eating anything she cooks


Well....at least _something_ is getting back to normal!


----------



## RandomDude

> I think a cooling off period is a good thing. Your nerves are raw and your perspective is a bit clouded with anger. You need to clear your head and see things as they are, not as they look in the fog of war.
> I can't see how she would go from the love of your life, to the devil within such a short time. *So my guess is that she has always been something in between and how you see her depends on what glasses you are looking through*.


That's what I'm afraid of realising and I'm hoping its not the case. If it is then it was really a love/hate relationship but now the love is gone and there's nothing but hate.


----------



## RandomDude

COGypsy said:


> Well....at least _something_ is getting back to normal!


Not exactly a good thing, hell I don't know how to feel at the moment and my other thread in the men's clubhouse asking for clarity in my thoughts is being flooded by troll-talk, forum politics and incredible baseless accusations



> How much time do you spend online daily?


Depends on whether my wife and I are in the sh-ts or not, like now - I drop in every few hours.


----------



## Lyris

Jeapordy said:


> I think a cooling off period is a good thing. Your nerves are raw and your perspective is a bit clouded with anger. You need to clear your head and see things as they are, not as they look in the fog of war.
> I can't see how she would go from the love of your life, to the devil within such a short time. So my guess is that she has always been something in between and how you see her depends on what glasses you are looking through.


I really agree with this. I remember only a few weeks ago you wrote that lovely post about all the things you loved about your wife. It's hard to believe that's all gone, unless it was never really there to begin with.

If I were you I'd try to sit tight and ride it out a bit until you're not so angry. Then see where your feelings lie.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> That's what I'm afraid of realising and I'm hoping its not the case. If it is then it was really a love/hate relationship but now the love is gone and there's nothing but hate.


 You keep rounding back to "she said the 'D' word" when you were fighting. You walked in and decided you two would become abstinent. I notice that you "don't want to hear anymore about how that was wrong, we need to move on" but you are harping on any and all of your wife's behaviors. I don't think anything will ever get fixed until you realize that YOU instigated this fight. YOU. Not her. She reacted. 

I can not honestly say I would react any better if my H walked in and told me that HE decided WE would be abstinent. I notice a lot of that in your posts RD. A lot of pushing all the "blame" onto your wife, and not accepting anything you do as wrong. The second you do finally admit you may have been out of line everyone needs to let it go and move on.


----------



## RandomDude

Lyris said:


> I really agree with this. I remember only a few weeks ago you wrote that lovely post about all the things you loved about your wife. It's hard to believe that's all gone, unless it was never really there to begin with.
> 
> If I were you I'd try to sit tight and ride it out a bit until you're not so angry. Then see where your feelings lie.


I just had a think about it this morning, it's getting harder and harder to work as this goes on. I've come to realise that perhaps all the love I thought I felt - was for the woman that she WAS. And I've just been telling myself that my wife is that woman for the last 5 years hoping and hoping she's still in there despite my wife showing negative changes since that time.

Maybe I've fallen out of love longer then I had thought. I don't know... I'm still lost in thought at the moment and can't find clarity. Keep asking the hard questions though, I need to rewire my brain it's a mess at the moment. I'm sitting tight at the moment, refusing to make any decisions.

I want to be able to make a decision with both my mind and my emotions stable, but at this point I have no idea why my emotions are so whacked.



DawnD said:


> You keep rounding back to "she said the 'D' word" when you were fighting. You walked in and decided you two would become abstinent. I notice that you "don't want to hear anymore about how that was wrong, we need to move on" but you are harping on any and all of your wife's behaviors. I don't think anything will ever get fixed until you realize that YOU instigated this fight. YOU. Not her. She reacted.
> 
> I can not honestly say I would react any better if my H walked in and told me that HE decided WE would be abstinent. I notice a lot of that in your posts RD. A lot of pushing all the "blame" onto your wife, and not accepting anything you do as wrong. The second you do finally admit you may have been out of line everyone needs to let it go and move on.


It's very difficult to see what I have done as wrong, that's the problem. I can see how I was wrong to have made a decision about our relationship without consulting her about it - I should have threw in a "free sex card" and tell her to fk someone else in the meantime but wait... nah that would just make it worse.

Yet at the same time I couldn't and still *can't see any other way I could have established boundaries with her*. I ran out of options, all I wanted was for her to respect some sexual boundaries which everyone on this forum has been telling me for the last few years to do. I thought I did heaps of times, nope, I didn't quite understand the concept; it means NO means NO and NO exceptions and its FINAL. A 180 in other words, and I did just that, but then I'm also in the wrong for it.

Unfortunately this whole situation isn't very black and white
Nonetheless I have apologised to my wife about not involving her with the decision, but I don't know... if I had the choice again, what would I have done... I couldn't have done anything else.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> It's very difficult to see what I have done as wrong, that's the problem. I can see how I was wrong to have made a decision about our relationship without consulting her about it - I should have threw in a "free sex card" and tell her to fk someone else in the meantime but wait... nah that would just make it worse.


 I am not speaking of just this case RD. Look back at some of your other posts ( if they have not been deleted) and see that no matter what she says, and no matter how long she has been telling you that your behaviors are hurting her, you REFUSED to see anything you did as wrong. Even now, there you are standing there saying " I have done some bad things, but she has done WORSE". That all depends on who is looking at the scenarios. Stop thinking since she is "worse" you haven't caused the same amount of damage. THAT is how you start.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> ; it means NO means NO and NO exceptions and its FINAL. A 180 in other words, and I did just that, but then I'm also in the wrong for it.


 Please tell me WHO exactly told you to demand that your wife become abstinent for a period of time that was not even determined? 

Setting boundaries and demanding compliance to a ridiculous decision made by only one party of a relationship is not a 180, and it is not setting boundaries. You did exactly what she was doing-- making demands.


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## RandomDude

Most of my threads are still standing, the only time I delete them is if it's too identifiable for folks in RL or if it's just not really important. I know I haven't exactly been a good husband for her as well, I've realised and called myself an a$$ plenty of times as well when I know I've done wrong.

Probably another reason why I'm actually hoping she just tells me she wants a D so we can get it over and done with. I'm not proud of my behaviour especially when I was on the booze, not proud of many of my threads either but I keep them up to remind myself. If you want me to be fair for my wife's sake, ok I will, let's disect what she said to me that night.


----------



## RandomDude

DawnD said:


> Please tell me WHO exactly told you to demand that your wife become abstinent for a period of time that was not even determined?
> 
> Setting boundaries and demanding compliance to a ridiculous decision made by only one party of a relationship is not a 180, and it is not setting boundaries. You did exactly what she was doing-- making demands.


They are not at fault at all, but in my circumstances I just don't see any other way then to have establish boundaries except for what I have done. As I mentioned plenty of times on this thread, I've tried time and time again to establish boundaries with her when it comes to sex, once a day was our agreement, but she still b-tched about it. So then I decided ok, I will commit 2 hours everyday - no ifs, no buts, for husband/wife time, not including family time with all three of us (daughter). Nope, she never took it seriously and continued to b-tch about it, trying to make my life hell just because I set those boundaries in place.

Please tell me how else I could have handled it?


----------



## RandomDude

Ok what she said that night, good thing I wrote it down otherwise I wouldn't remember at this point, it's been almost a week:

"She's doing her best and that I should give her time not impose such a thing on us when there's no need to and that she hasn't demanded anything, and that if I don't want sex tonight it's fine by her."
MC has only been 2 months and MC said to me that I have to be more patient. I agree with her, yes I have been impatient. My wife's b-tchy behaviour whenever I'm nice has made it very difficult for me however, but I guess one can say "that's no excuse"

"She does so much for me"
She keeps the house clean yes, takes our daughter out yes, as expected for any SAHM
Does she work? No. Is our daughter in school? Yes. What does she do during the day? Spend my money and live it up. Have I complained? Yes but I gave up.

"All she ever wants from me is for me to love her"
All she ever wants from me is sex, as I mentioned before, non-sexual acts of mine are rejected unless it comes with the promise of sex at the end.

"And that she tries so hard to make me happy, to be a good wife"
In some ways yes, but in other ways she gives me living hell.

"that I never stop breaking her heart, and that I always try to sabotage our marriage"
She's right in this, I admit it, I've neglected her esteem needs when I was on the alcohol, hence the 180 into beta zone. Yes I do bring up problems when there's no need to at times - hence I take up what some folks called me "the drama king". Since quitting alcohol I've been serious about changing, yet I seem to be making more mistakes.


----------



## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> They are not at fault at all, but in my circumstances I just don't see any other way then to have establish boundaries except for what I have done. As I mentioned plenty of times on this thread, I've tried time and time again to establish boundaries with her when it comes to sex, once a day was our agreement, but she still b-tched about it. So then I decided ok, I will commit 2 hours everyday - no ifs, no buts, for husband/wife time, not including family time with all three of us (daughter). Nope, she never took it seriously and continued to b-tch about it, trying to make my life hell just because I set those boundaries in place.
> 
> Please tell me how else I could have handled it?


Abstinence for an undetermined amount of time is not a boundary. That is a demand. And a rather unfair one. A better boundary is "If you refuse to change your behavior towards me, I can not feel sexually attracted to you, and I will not consent to sex until you treat me like a husband and not a d***".


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## RandomDude

And on another note, yes, I've made a sh-t ton of mistakes including disrespecting HER sexual boundaries even if it's rare. I'm not blind to my mistakes, but at the same time I get confused about what is right and wrong. Maybe I should have made a thread about my plans on this forum before I just went headlong into bringing this up with my wife.

I don't know why I just snapped


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## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> "that I never stop breaking her heart, and that I always try to sabotage our marriage"
> She's right in this, I admit it, I've neglected her esteem needs when I was on the alcohol, hence the 180 into beta zone. Yes I do bring up problems when there's no need to at times - hence I take up what some folks called me "the drama king". Since quitting alcohol I've been serious about changing, yet I seem to be making more mistakes.


 Because the one you are focused on changing is HER. You really need to think long and hard about all the sh* you did when you were drinking and realize how it has affected things today. It did not just disappear. It kept building.


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## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> And on another note, yes, I've made a sh-t ton of mistakes including disrespecting HER sexual boundaries even if it's rare. I'm not blind to my mistakes, but at the same time I get confused about what is right and wrong. Maybe I should have made a thread about my plans on this forum before I just went headlong into bringing this up with my wife.
> 
> I don't know why I just snapped


I am not trying to convince you at all that you are wrong for feeling that she is abusive. You are correct. But when you talked about it, she said she was trying and making progress, and the counselor agreed. Then you hatched your plan of abstinence. She handled it with a calm, hey if you don't want to tonight, that is fine I won't bother you". Then you pushed her KNOWINGLY and started this fight. You said," I just wanted to test her. " You knew what you were doing the whole time.


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## RandomDude

DawnD said:


> Abstinence for an undetermined amount of time is not a boundary. That is a demand. And a rather unfair one. A better boundary is "*If you refuse to change your behavior towards me, I can not feel sexually attracted to you*, and I will not consent to sex until you treat me like a husband and not a d***".


As for the bold, I've tried that and told her that how many fking times?!

As for the underlined... *sigh*
I have been so stupid

Alright, I get it


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## DawnD

Do you at least believe that no one here is trying to tell you that you not wanting to have to have sex 3 times a day is wrong? No one is saying you have to do that, or that you should. I am hoping that you can see that. truly.


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## RandomDude

DawnD said:


> I am not trying to convince you at all that you are wrong for feeling that she is abusive. You are correct. But when you talked about it, she said she was trying and making progress, and the counselor agreed. Then you hatched your plan of abstinence. *She handled it with a calm, hey if you don't want to tonight, that is fine I won't bother you". Then you pushed her KNOWINGLY and started this fight. *You said," I just wanted to test her. " You knew what you were doing the whole time.


Yeah... should have backed off...
I acted in anger and frustration at all her expectations and I also had built up resentment of her refusing to work when our daughter is already at school. I should have been stronger but I wasn't

I wanted to test whether she would take boundaries seriously or not, was a really sh-t test. *sighs*
Alright, I get it too

Here I thought quitting alcohol would give me a much clearer mind, was too arrogant, thought I had all the answers...


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## RandomDude

DawnD said:


> Do you at least believe that no one here is trying to tell you that you not wanting to have to have sex 3 times a day is wrong? No one is saying you have to do that, or that you should. I am hoping that you can see that. truly.


I don't know, by this point seeking help for this issue for the last 4 years and even joining this forum since 2010 it's been a crawl with solutions and most of the time I just get attacked for my experiences so I have to try to filter out what I can get out of this forum too

In RL I have zero support as well as you can imagine, it's in our culture ACROSS ALL cultures; a man should not complain about too much sex. My wife used that against me 2 years ago


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## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> I don't know, by this point seeking help for this issue for the last 4 years and even joining this forum since 2010 it's been a crawl with solutions and most of the time I just get attacked for my experiences so I have to try to filter out what I can get out of this forum too
> 
> In RL I have zero support as well as you can imagine, it's in our culture ACROSS ALL cultures; a man should not complain about too much sex. My wife used that against me 2 years ago



No. Being used for sex is offensive and abusive no matter who you are. There is a difference between being an arse and calling her out when she is being one. Ask AFEH, Conrad, and some of the others about YOUR boundaries. Ways you will or will not be treated. Mem as well, he slipped my mind. You are trying to set up HER boundaries instead of your own.


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## RandomDude

Right, thanks for that, I can see much clearer now
Sad though, because now it's too late



> I will not consent to sex until you treat me like a husband and not a d***".


I don't think I'll be able to forget that line for the rest of my life
I don't know how she would have reacted, but damn I should have used that line

I'm not cut out for all this
It's better for my wife to just move on, I think I've reached my own breaking point, I'll never be good enough to handle her


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## RandomDude

Too bad Trenton, if you don't like my thoughts, then leave this thread. Simple as that. Your choice.

At least others have been helpful


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## sandc

I'm not going to watch a salvageable marriage fall apart. Checking out boss.


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## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> Right, thanks for that, I can see much clearer now
> Sad though, because now it's too late
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I'll be able to forget that line for the rest of my life
> I don't know how she would have reacted, but damn I should have used that line
> 
> I'm not cut out for all this
> It's better for my wife to just move on, I think I've reached my own breaking point, I'll never be good enough to handle her


 It doesn't have anything to do with handling her, its handling yourself you seem to be struggling with. Don't disagree with me quite yet, let me explain a little. 

You say something set you off to for this "talk". That is where you should have taken the time to figure out what was going on with YOU, instead of tabling the issue as "she is the problem". 

Granted, the sex thing is a huge problem, and I feel for you. But you have been trying to control her, instead of controlling yourself. The key to your relationship is not "fixing" or controlling your wife, it is understanding and controlling yourself, and setting up your personal boundaries.


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## RandomDude

Yeah, like what my old man always told me, "you're responsible for you and you alone" and "power comes with responsibility" and that "the opposite is true, accepting responsibility for yourself gives you the power to change"

I've made my mistakes, at least now I can see clearly where I've done wrong. And it's not just the sex that is an issue for us, I guess resentment has a way of sabotaging the marriage inside out. We've done our damage, but I don't see this as salvageable at all.

Right now I'm in a position where my ears would be fully open to anything my wife has to say... but I dread even talking to her about this and trying to find a solution considering it's always a chess game with her. Maybe she's taking it more seriously now since that night (maybe some good has come out of all this)

But I don't know, all I know right now is I no longer feel I love my wife and I bet she's feeling the same way about me too. I'm still waiting for the luggage bags to come out in the hallway, I just don't know what to say to her, or if I should even be vulnerable at present towards her.


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## RandomDude

They actually answered the question when I asked for it - how I could have actually done this better, and I got my answer.

Rather then going on and on accusing me of this or that or whatever the fk else BS simply because you and your little group can't seem to focus on the situation at hand. 
Can't even believe the BS that goes on in this forum and I still even remember that time 2 yrs ago when you PMed me telling me not to listen to this person or that person. Sheez

People come here to seek advice, not play politics or accuse folk of acting dramatic or attack people for no reason either than bitterness of being the opposite end of the stick.

And get the hint, you're no longer of any assist to my thread. Thanks for your contributions so far, at one time they were helpful, but now I'm simply not in the mood to take your bait and play forum wars with you.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

I have read lots of your postings, RandomDude, and I have GOT TO ASK you....

WHAT are you and your wife teaching your 4-year old daughter about life?

WHAT are you two teaching her about being an adult?

WHAT are you two teaching her about being married?

THAT LITTLE GIRL should be the ONE AND ONLY, SOLE FOCUS of all your thinking, pondering, breast-beating, anger, venting, self-flagellation, indignation (righteous and otherwise), contemplation and FUTURE ACTIONS.

STOP IT! STOP ALL OF IT! ENOUGH!!!!

Take a deep breath and REALLY, HONESTLY sit down for a half-hour SOLID and think about YOUR LIFE, YOUR HOUSEHOLD from the perspective of a 4-year old. Then think about her as a 13-year old in this household. Then think about her as an 18-year old in this household.

Don't think about how you'd LIKE it to be, or WISH it to be, or HOPE it will be. HOW DO YOU HONESTLY THINK IT LOOKS NOW AND WILL LOOK IN THE NEXT decade and a half?

Then GET UP and do WHATEVER IN THE HELL it is that needs to be DONE. JUST DO IT.


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## RandomDude

Right now it looks like sh-t, as for what it will look like in the future I have absolutely no clue

I don't know what's best for our child right now except to hold on while MC helps us out and to make a decision that will cause the least trauma for our daughter now and in the future


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

I think a good part of your problem, RD, is that you DON'T ever sit quietly and think, reflect on the past and present, project the future. You just react. Over and over again.

Instead of being REACTIVE, try being PROACTIVE. Sit down quietly as I suggested and THINK about your life. THINK about your marriage. THINK about your daughter. Of course, you can't predict the future, but you can come DAMNED close by looking at your past.

You really want what's best for your daughter, SHOW SOME RESTRAINT in a time of great upheaval. Do some heavy, serious thinking. *Arrive at your NEXT Marriage Counseling session with some important, relevant ideas and insights to share.*


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## RandomDude

I can't when I don't know exactly where I stand with my wife and our communication channels are still very shaky at the moment despite apologising to each other about the whole darn issue

Makes me wonder too if the reason I'm not feeling love is because my brain has kept my emotions shut down lest I go crazy with uncertainty. But ALRIGHT, I'll try it. As of this moment I have absolutely nothing at all to lose so why the hell not, I'll be back later.


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## anonim

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Yes. If this was the other way around his wife would be getting flamed by every male on TAM from here to China.


Now it is the other way round and lo and behold, you are doing the same thing as they would. You are as bad as they are.


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## RandomDude

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I think a good part of your problem, RD, is that you DON'T ever sit quietly and think, reflect on the past and present, project the future. You just react. Over and over again.
> 
> Instead of being REACTIVE, try being PROACTIVE. Sit down quietly as I suggested and THINK about your life. THINK about your marriage. THINK about your daughter. Of course, you can't predict the future, but you can come DAMNED close by looking at your past.
> 
> You really want what's best for your daughter, SHOW SOME RESTRAINT in a time of great upheaval. Do some heavy, serious thinking. *Arrive at your NEXT Marriage Counseling session with some important, relevant ideas and insights to share.*


Well ok, I've calmed down a bit, had a think. Alright... 

What I feel is ideal and best to provide our daughter with the family we owe to her right now, is this; for us to give her the family she wants:

Both my wife and I have to sit down and start over from the very beginning how each of us would like our marriage to be like. This is something that we have never done from day one and it has BIT US IN THE ASS.

Boundaries have to be established and agreed upon and taken seriously as well as not forced like what I tried to pull - my wife and I have both messed up in this regard. They have to be firm, intuitive and understandable to both parties. DawnD's line would be an example that I would use for any future boundaries that I am to establish. Honest and firm, but straight to the point and I don't know if even my wife can say sh-t to that. I will have to ask Mavash first however if her husband said that would she have taken it seriously, and if she says yes, then that line is pure gold. She's been there.

We each have our flaws and we've both made our mistakes, if we can admit to them to each other honestly and maturely like adults then... we might be salvageable.
But I'm not going back into this marriage in our current state. And unless we can break that wall of ice we have in front of each other now and come to a civil discussion on how we want it to work then fk it. And that's presuming she will even listen to anything I have to say at this point as it seems she's shut down as well in response to the trauma I put her through that night.

It's either we do this and be serious about fixing our marriage starting it over, or our relationship is simply too dysfunctional and I do not want my daughter to come out crying again in the middle of a fight between my wife and I and have my wife ignore her and continue shouting. She will need to learn restraint as well.

Should I even take this to MC? Meh, guess why not. Hell maybe if she acts THAT maturely which I doubt she will, I may even begin to love her again, I don't know.


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## RandomDude

Trenton, I don't really know about your little group or whatever little group making up random BS and at this point of time I have bigger problems to worry about then forum politics and no that PM those years ago was not helpful but I appreciated the gesture at one time.

I take helpful advice despite the source, whether it's from a man who is a divorcee or one has never had success in marriage because there is ALWAYS sh-t that people know that I don't, especially older men. So telling me not to listen to this or that person, no, I get very little support as it is. The way I see it, talking sh-t about others in PM should not be on.

Now as for YOUR advice... How can you possibly understand a situation that you've never lived? How can you possibly see yourself in either of our shoes when you have never lived what it is like to desire sex 3x a day let alone to be coerced into having sex 3x a day. Then try to say that you see stuff in our marriage that you can relate to your own?!
My wife has issues and I have issues, accusing me of being dramatic and accusing me of enjoying it and even accusing me of BS was amusing at first, but in a time like this you come on this thread and continue to accuse me of enjoying it?!?! Pffft!!!

This is my first marriage, I am 27 years old, I am stubborn, prone to anger, prone to make decisions without thinking. I'm young and I make mistakes and the last thing I need is for someone to come in when I need help and insist on your own viewpoint refusing to listen to anything I have to say unless it fits into your little conclusion of me and my marriage.

Look back at this thread, read the times when I've asked repeatedly from my very SECOND POST on this thread on the first page : WHAT ELSE COULD I HAVE DONE?! And it took 17 pages before I found an answer that humbled the sh-t outta me and made me realise how STUPID I FKING WAS FOR DOING WHAT I DID IN THE FKING FIRST PLACE, and that answer was just a fking line
You accuse me of not taking advice when the truth is that I simply take the advice that FITS. You want a break? Then as I said before, get the hint. Leave this thread, don't give a sh-t about me as now you know that you are not helping.


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## RandomDude

@SlowlyGettingWiser

Hell I don't know anymore, I don't know if my answer was even answer. I'm just uncertain. I don't know where I stand I can't project the future.


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## TiggyBlue

I personally think your marriage is salvageable but it seriously needs a spring clean and you both need to have a serious look at the things you did to damage this marriage individually, and LISTEN to each other (don't call it *****ing, game playing ect).
Maybe it would be good for you both to do ic and mc (even if you live separately until the counseling starts to take effect).
But as long as you both blame all of your problems on each other and play down your actions even if you divorce these issues will just follow you into your next relationships and that will have a effect on your daughter.


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## RandomDude

Update...

We're inreconciliable now, we just had a talk about it, maybe we shouldn't have, but she does not wish to continue MC, does not 'wish to continue the pain', says she can no longer believe that I love her, had enough, etc etc, says she wishes things could be different but after that night I apparently proved to her that I don't love her by kicking her out of the room and that this isn't the first time I broke her heart, etc etc.

If anything, I'm feeling a surge of emotion right now. Maybe because now I know I've lost her. I told her that we could still work it out but it's going to take two and she said she can't handle it anymore and that she's sorry but I've broken her. I asked her to consider our daughter in this and she said that she has and that she (our daughter) doesn't deserve to see anymore of this and she can't trust that what happened won't happen again while she's with me.

I don't see how or even why I should fight to get this to work anymore. So, ok, tomorrow we'll start seperating.


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## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> I don't see how or even why I should fight to get this to work anymore. So, ok, tomorrow we'll start seperating.


 I am asking you for a moment of complete honesty. Was this what you wanted to happen all along??

You said something snapped before the conversation you had about your decision. Were you attempting to push this either one way or another? (Such as it either brings you together or tears you apart)


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## RandomDude

A part of me wanted this yes, another part of me wishes she said something along the lines of taking MC seriously and agreeing to sit down and start our relationship over with establishing boundaries as a priority. But that's just too much to ask considering what I have done. I broke her, I fked up, I can't fix it now but to give her space to heal

I have to let this happen, if anything good came out of all this is that we've both realised how damaging our relationship really was. We're in agreement for once, we both need this time apart at least and hey, who knows what may happen. If only I had tried that line you mentioned MAYBE things would be different but meh, no point dwelling on the what ifs now. It's done, I have to deal with the consequences of my actions.

We're going to discuss how to break it to our daughter tomorrow after I finish checking up on work. Only now it seems we're on the same side, irony really. I don't know if reconciliation is in the picture later down the track, only time will tell.

Regardless, I wish we have woken up sooner. And if anything, I know I'm going to miss her. I'll be fine, and it looks like my wife is taking it well, at least better than I had hoped, we can get through this, and we both know we need it. It would be too selfish for me to fight for her back and I'm not going to. I don't think I even deserve another chance for what I've done unless I have time to myself to reflect as well. And I know I can never take her back without her going to some sort of counselling for her issues which she strongly refuses at this point. So in the end -> seperation is the only solution for us.

Anyways, I have to sleep, somehow. Tomorrow is a big day...


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## DawnD

RandomDude said:


> We're going to discuss how to break it to our daughter tomorrow after I finish checking up on work. Only now it seems we're on the same side, irony really. I don't know if reconciliation is in the picture later down the track, only time will tell.


Make sure you both take the time to come up with the separation boundaries. Good luck RD, and I am hoping you both can find a way through this and do what is best for everyone involved.


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## alte Dame

I'm sorry that things have developed this way.

You stopped drinking a while ago & this has changed you as a person. It changes everything - your feelings of physical health, the way you think, the way you handle your personal relationships.

It takes a long time to understand the new, sober you. I would bet that your W doesn't understand it. In my experience, it can take years to develop a comfort level with the person you are without alcohol. What you become is good, just different.

I would encourage you to examine this & to talk to your W about it. You have been grappling with your feelings for her & I suspect it has a lot to do with how you've changed in your reactions to her now that you are not drinking.

I also think that, given some time, your W will revisit her decision about your marriage.


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## RandomDude

Yes I've realised this, my wife had difficulty coping with it before as well. But it seems I kept changing and changing, got more serious about our marriage, and probably ended up thinking a bit TOO much.

But I don't know, looking back at everything this was a long time coming. We needed this, and now more than ever. I don't know if it's wise to talk to my STBX about anything either than our seperation and our daughter at the moment.

Besides she's not exactly 100% stable yet, I came home from work today and was about to discuss with her how to break it to our daughter and she exploded for a good few minutes saying that her life is now a living hell and that I'm to blame but later apologised. I understand exactly how she's feeling at the moment and I'm also wanting to procastinate telling our daughter.


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## RandomDude

Heck, come to think of it, speaking of alcohol... WTF?!

First she kept complaining about my alcohol... then she just got used to it... then I just went "boom", quit cold turkey... and now she can't handle it!!! How come things never seem to go right... *sigh*


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## alte Dame

Your W probably doesn't know what to expect of you anymore. From what you say, you have both been in a very damaging mode for a long time.

Taking the alcohol out of the equation is a good step on your part to move in a better direction, but she had no real say in it & can't predict the sober you the way she could predict the drinking you. I doubt that you even understand how you'll be physically and emotionally for the long term without the booze.

FWIW, I doubt that your W really wants a divorce. I think she's off balance right now & doesn't really know what to think or do. Telling your child may finalize things in a scary way for her.


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## RandomDude

alte Dame said:


> Your W probably doesn't know what to expect of you anymore. From what you say, you have both been in a very damaging mode for a long time.
> 
> Taking the alcohol out of the equation is a good step on your part to move in a better direction, but she had no real say in it & can't predict the sober you the way she could predict the drinking you. I doubt that you even understand how you'll be physically and emotionally for the long term without the booze.
> 
> FWIW, I doubt that your W really wants a divorce. I think she's off balance right now & doesn't really know what to think or do. Telling your child may finalize things in a scary way for her.


Yeah, and she complained about the new sober me from time to time. So much for support *sigh*, and you're right, I had to really collect my thoughts since quitting alcohol, the changes were... overwhelming at first. But then I got addicted to having a clear head, and thought I was everything... *sigh* felt on top of the world I guess.

And yes, I know she doesn't really want a D but she made it clear she can't handle it anymore and refuses to continue MC and that was it for me. I can't help but realise I've broken her and robbed her of her strength, I can't keep her knowing what I've done and knowing that even if I do change, things still won't change while she resists MC. As for telling our daughter, yes... I'm in the same boat as her, I'm not so sure if I'm ready to tell her yet either.


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## alte Dame

RandomDude said:


> But then I got addicted to having a clear head.


Ain't that the truth.

I will be a scold here & say that you should use your clear head to take more time to make a decision that will so profoundly affect your child.

It sounds like your W has equated loving you and having your love with continuous sex & now without it, she is incapable of knowing how she feels. Whether you like it or not, your clearer head will have to do the leading.


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## RandomDude

Well, I got addicted to my clear head, but unfortunately that doesn't make me any smarter. I'm still stupid

Right now though, regardless of our intentions with all this, my wife and I are working together for once, even if we're working together to end our marriage. It's a big relief from all the fighting and demands and everything else. I'm also suffering a physical system shock from having sex multiple times a day to now nothing at all for a week and knowing it's over.

I don't know what else we can do, at the moment it's semi-peaceful but we're delaying it now after realising how chicken sh-t we both are when it comes to telling our daughter.


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## Michie

Sex addiction where she is only fulfilling her addiction with you? Dude are f ucking serious?

I hope i missed something here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

That's an old possibility that I've examined as well in my time here:

An old thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/55015-nymphomania-loyalty.html
Recent thread which I found explains alot of her behaviour actually: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/60036-ex-escort.html

Regardless I've already hired a PI, considering she's now cut off, and I don't trust her


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## Kasler

I read the thread. Completely looks like you sabotaged the marriage. 

That was absolutely no way to treat a BS in any shape or form, and your actions afterward cemented this. 

You may have self destructive tendencies that you need counseling for.


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## RandomDude

You can judge my actions but don't presume to judge my intentions in this, unless you can say you've lived what I've lived and enjoyed it.

All of this was to establish some simple sexual boundaries. I've realised what I have done was a mistake now yes, and that there was another way that I did not think of. Regardless I'm dealing with the consequences, but don't think I came to this decision easily


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## bbrad

RandomDude said:


> That's an old possibility that I've examined as well in my time here:
> 
> An old thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/55015-nymphomania-loyalty.html
> Recent thread which I found explains alot of her behaviour actually: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/60036-ex-escort.html
> 
> Regardless I've already hired a PI, considering she's now cut off, and I don't trust her


If it is over, why waste time and money on a PI?


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## RandomDude

Ammunition mate, ammunition: I'm thinking ahead, whether for court or for future dealings with her considering I can no longer get her completely out of my life


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## Kasler

RandomDude said:


> You can judge my actions but don't presume to judge my intentions in this, unless you can say you've lived what I've lived and enjoyed it.
> 
> All of this was to establish some simple sexual boundaries. I've realised what I have done was a mistake now yes, and that there was another way that I did not think of. Regardless I'm dealing with the consequences, but don't think I came to this decision easily


I just can't understand why not just discuss it? Thats a huge decision in the marriage, as tantamount as moving to another state or to renew vows.

Its definitely not something to be decided by oneself and oneself only. :scratchhead:


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## RandomDude

Ok look, it was what I thought of as a lightbulb moment. Looking back at this whole mess since the nymphomania began four years ago - it just snapped - BOUNDARIES.

4 years ago, at THAT time, I THOUGHT it was because I was working 84 hrs a week and hence I accepted it, went OK, whatever. I was still in a state of panic since the baby bells rang - I even got married FFS!!!
And that's how this progressed, from that very early stage since marriage, I've changed the lifestyle dramatically since taking over the business, but it never changed. I came on this forum, then I read "boundaries"

First time I read of the word, being a stubborn young idiot that I was (and still am it seems) was "DUH"
Yes I was THAT stupid

Now, fast forward the two years I've been here complaining and stressing out as well as getting attacked for my situation (I actually joined for a completely different situation - interreligious issues, which were solved by a 180, but left a mark), time and time again that word just kept coming, "boundaries", and of course 180. My wife improved somewhat yes, or so I thought, then I realised she was still manipulating me changing her style from aggressive to playing victim.

At this time I still made decisions with her, and ok, I brought up MC. Nope, she won't have anything to do with it. I tried again. Nope, she won't do it. After a while it began to start fights. Then I went, nope we HAVE to do this, but I have to 'cheat' a little in this game. So I decided to spoil her a bit and then drop the bomb telling her very sweetly (sheez) that what would make me very happy is for us to do MC.

So ok, she agreed. I celebrated. That was 2 months ago. Now, her behaviour has actually got worse and better at the same time. On one hand yes, she became less demanding, but on the other hand she became more and more passive-aggressive. From day one STs SH-T ME. I HATE IT, I can't STAND IT.

Then the typical scenario happens: I flirt, I tease, I affirm, I make her feel loved based on physical touch according to her love language. Then she wants it, and I say no. And you can guess the rest. 4 years ago it was to start a fight, now it's just ST and b-tching. Then she tells me that I shouldn't even touch her if I don't want it because it "leads her on" and "hurts" her. WTF?!

Now, at this point I've also identified ALOT of my own flaws, from drinking, to flirting with other women, to making her feel insecure, to bring up old "nazi" debates, I've changed all that since sobering up - changes that she ended up being unable to handle. So I went beta - kissing her a$$ so to speak, in hopes that I can repair the damage that I have done.

In the end, that just put me back into being a doormat with sex. Not to mention I can never discuss this with anyone in RL anymore without being slapped upside down the head and having all my mates shaking me going "WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?! YOU TURNED GAY?! IS YOUR C--K WORKING BRO?! MAYBE SATISFY YOUR WIFE BETTER EACH SESSION SO SHE WOULDNT ****** YOU ALL DAY" etc etc.

So BOOM, boundaries. No more, I had enough. AND I WENT ABOUT THE WRONG WAY... YES I know. BUT FK I DIDNT KNOW WTF THE ELSE TO DO IN MY SITUATION!!!!

Bah!!! And now... all this sh-t to deal with and she had a short fit at me earlier this morning while discussing how to break it to our daughter.


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## Summer4744

Rd. Is her need for sex a physical thing or an emotional thing? 

I would assume if it was just physical she could just masturbate enough so you both could be happy. But would this not satisfy her?

If it is mainly emotional for her and not just physical do you think she will step out on you? 

I think she is kinda bluffing. Sure she may be miserable right now and hate you. But deep down I think she will crumble without you and come back to you. 

If you think there is any chance you will have regrets in the future,
I really believe you should make one last effort before damage is done and it is truly too late to go back.


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## Lyris

RandomDude said:


> Ammunition mate, ammunition: I'm thinking ahead, whether for court or for future dealings with her considering I can no longer get her completely out of my life


Australia has no-fault divorce laws, so even if she does have sex with someone else, it won't mean anything in terms of the settlement. Nearly all divorces are settled with no court involved, and it is much much better that way, particularly for children


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## RandomDude

No, she refused to masturbate without me, and hell I have to admit it, considering her "collection", that yes. To be fair on her, yes -> she has really tried her best to keep it interesting too but she just takes rejection from me just WAY TOO HARD. No I do not want to play! 

As for her stepping out on me why not? It's obvious I broke her heart, what makes you think there can be any love left considering instead of considering my options she chose "fk it all" and agreed that we're done. So as for sex considering her drive how else is she going to get it now? I doubt she could keep herself entertained with her collection for long.

As for PI I'm just keeping sure I don't lose the opportunity for ammunition later down the track. As for her bluffing, we were VERY clear with each other last night on what's going to happen. If she is, then well, I sure as hell aint!

I don't see what I can even do at this point, playing romeo isn't going to cut it this time. She's made her terms clear -> I either stop all this, and accept the way she is, or it's over. I've been presented with a straight narrow road now.

Just seems to be bumpy considering we both just realised how hard it truly is to tell a child what's going to happen when we told her last week that it wouldn't happen. Anyways, right now I'm giving my wife some time to get her sh-t together because if we don't do it tonight, we have to do it soon.


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## RandomDude

Lyris said:


> Australia has no-fault divorce laws, so even if she does have sex with someone else, it won't mean anything in terms of the settlement. Nearly all divorces are settled with no court involved, and it is much much better that way, particularly for children


Still have to get legal advice *sighs* Thanks for reminding me
It's a year seperation (living apart) before divorce can be considered that I know, besides I don't want to end up with nothing later and find out I need it, and that's just divorce laws, custody may be a problem later and I'd rather be safe then sorry, besides whatever I can get whether infidelity or whatever I don't care, PI is for my own peace of mind

Regardless I don't want to find out she's been sleeping with someone while I'm here all abstinent out of respect of her.


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## Lyris

Ok, just think about whether it's really worth the money. There's probably a lot you could do yourself, with keyloggers etc, if it's primarily for peace of mind. A lot of private surveillance won't be admissible in court anyway.

Most people in Australia get divorced without going to court. They get a lawyer/lawyers to draw up an agreed-upon settlement with regards to property etc. You'll both be entitled to 50% of the marital property, which is everything apart from personal inheritances that have not been spent on communally used property.

Regarding your daughter, the norm now is equal access providing its in the child's best interests. Not sure how child support is worked our in that case, but if you go a more traditional custodial/non custodial route, and you are the non-custodial parent, I think you pay about 30% of your income in child support. Might be worth making a centrelink apt too.


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## RandomDude

I'm an amateur and I'll probably mess up if I try using keylogging so I'd rather trust the professionals. I have my own business and I don't spend much (my wife spends everything) and at this point I don't care about what I spend. But thanks though, I know this could all be a waste of money - and to be honest deep down inside I don't actually believe she'll do anything but I never know.

Centerlink and legal advice has to wait, we've only come to the decision of seperation - last night. And today we're having difficulties at present even trying to tell our daughter what's happening. BTW actually, you seem to know a great deal about this more than me. This is the first time - for both of us when it comes to seriously considering divorce.

FIFTY PERCENT?!! Wait now, ok, she has a few assets under her name, but most is still under mine including the house. I've been sole provider, you mentioned 50%, does that include our COMBINED assets? She hasn't worked a CENT the last 4 years either than helping me out at MY workplace. Now it's 50%!? Regardless of under whose name etc and contribution?! Doesn't contribution play a part? I swear I read somewhere that it does. Darn it I need legal advice.

As for custody we haven't reached that stage yet but we have to BEFORE divorce proceedings as we have to come to an agreement in this before divorce later can be finalised yes? Am I correct? Argh, I have to do homework


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## Lyris

It's pretty complicated, but here's a summary http://www.legalaid.vic.gov.au/cle....property_after_you_have_separated_english.pdf

It doesn't matter who's name your house is in. You're married, so it is considered to be marital property. Her non-financial contributions to your family in terms of child care and house keeping will be taken into account as well as any improvements she has made through maintenance etc. 

If the courts end up making the decision, they won't rule that you get all the stuff in your name. Basically, you need to come out of the marriage roughly equal, as her unpaid contribution has allowed you to have a family and earn the money you earned. As an illustration, if your wife had died and you had to pay a full-time nanny, it would cost about $1,000 per week. So, effectively your wife was saving you that much per week. Take out room and board, it would still be $700 per week. And that's not including housekeeping.

See a lawyer. I'm not one, I just read a lot.


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## RandomDude

50% of our assets is a HUGE amount of money for us, that's all... forgive my tone. I never expected it to be THAT much...

Hell I have to stop procastinating, have to get this seperation moving and need to be prepared. I'm spending too much time thinking of what ifs and what nots as of this moment. Hell I wish there's another way right now... oh thats right, she won't forgive what I've done, have to keep reminding myself.

Now unless she's already two steps ahead when it comes to legal proceedings and knowledge about this... nah, can't have that. Won't stand to lose everything due to ignorance. First having to tell our daughter whats going to happen (I just tried with my wife again but she stopped me *sigh* - I told her later that we can't sit on the fence in between marriage and seperation forever and that we both agreed to do this for all three of us), now this... we can't stay married and divorce is a long straight narrow sad bumpy... EXPENSIVE road.

She told me today that I make her life a living hell and then pinned it on me - and although she apologised... does she even care that she's making my life a living hell too?!?! And this aint even about how we feel about our marriage and each other...

Anyways... thanks guys for the support, I wish I can give some good news but right now it's a rather depressing journey. This is going to be my first divorce. *sigh* 

A last ditch attempt for hope...
I'm going to ask just this, how is this salvageable (from last night/post last page):


> Update...
> 
> We're inreconciliable now, we just had a talk about it, maybe we shouldn't have, but she does not wish to continue MC, does not 'wish to continue the pain', says she can no longer believe that I love her, had enough, etc etc, says she wishes things could be different but after that night I apparently proved to her that I don't love her by kicking her out of the room and that this isn't the first time I broke her heart, etc etc.
> 
> If anything, I'm feeling a surge of emotion right now. Maybe because now I know I've lost her. I told her that we could still work it out but it's going to take two and she said she can't handle it anymore and that she's sorry but I've broken her. I asked her to consider our daughter in this and she said that she has and that she (our daughter) doesn't deserve to see anymore of this and she can't trust that what happened won't happen again while she's with me.
> 
> I don't see how or even why I should fight to get this to work anymore. So, ok, tomorrow we'll start seperating.


Do I want it? If she's willing and serious about it, yes we can do it... but... *sigh*


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## deejov

Jeez, RD what you posted above (what she said) totally reads like an addict "broken" because you are denying their fix.

You won't give her what she wants, and stop asking her to change, so she's broken? 

Nah, what she is asking you to do is enable her addiction. And you can't do it. 

If you were both in therapy, and had guidelines on how to treat each other (like RULES) then maybe you could speak of emotions and who is really "done" or not. 

She thinks she would be happy if you just went along with everything she wants. You think you would be happy if you didn't feel so used. 

End a marriage because of an addiction? It happens all the time.

And yeah, I'm the one with all the money about to lose 50% of it to my soon to be ex husband. The price of freedom and sanity.

But I bet you still love her. You don't like being used. Neither do I.
They are two different things. Hate is anger at being mistreated.
Apathy is the opposite of love. When you get to that stage... you no longer love her.


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## RandomDude

Thanks Deejov... I'm in a mess at the moment, I have to work tonight as well, we didn't get anywhere last night, her terms are solid, she's made her decision; either I suck up to her or she's leaving. I can't suck up, not only will that just make me a doormat but it's against EVERYTHING I stand for, and if I do, I can no longer call myself part of my own people. Not to mention she'll probably lose all respect for me so it's not, and never an option.

MC is recommending one final session before we do this, she feels that unless we give it one last shot, we may live to regret this. My wife has not agreed but nor has she disagreed yet, she's in turmoil at the moment. There's nothing I can do or say, and she's unable to tell our daughter yet not even with me being there with her. I think she's very confused, hurt and unstable at present.

I wish that night never happened, but then I wonder if she could ever have taken this issue seriously unless this happened. I don't know if it's love, but I really miss her even if she's still here. We're stuck, we can't go forward we can't go back, but we have to go forward, and the more pain she feels it seems the more she's resenting and blaming me for it.

And now I stand to lose everything... I just wish, there is a miracle option, some way to solve this, some way where we can magically go back to our lives 5 years ago when we were two inseperable lovebirds, not this... *sigh* Anyways, have an appointment with my solicitor after lunch, I hope I can contain myself... and not waste his time and my money. Darn it... now I'm being cautious with my cash.


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## alte Dame

RD - This thread is one that I really think about (when I'm doing what I'm supposed to do in my real life) because of the very serious issues you have going on with your wife's need for sex.

Again, I will say that your giving up alcohol was an excellent first step toward fixing your life in general & that you can use the strength that gives you to approach other things in more mature, measured ways.

You can give yourself more time in all of this. You can insist that your W give it time. Your ultimatum to her sounds like a primal scream that drained both of you completely. You need to get strong again before you make any serious life-changing decisions. The divorce isn't a runaway train that you have no control over. You can set a time for yourselves - say one month - in which to cool down and think & then you can revisit.

When your life is a soap opera, everything is very urgent. Take a deep breath & let go of the drama. Give yourself some real time to think.


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## jaquen

Mavash. said:


> My heart goes out to you. Again if this were a woman she would have totally cut off her husband a lot longer ago than you have. If a woman can't make her husband happy with daily sex she's likely say fvck it too and be done with it.
> 
> Its so hard for people to grasp because you're a man.
> 
> I swear this thread would have different advice if it were a woman complaining about her husband wanting sex 3X a day and b1tching when daily wasn't enough.


You took the words right out of my fingertips. 

Something is very wrong with the double standards here. If this was a woman who was tired of being required to put out to her husband 3x a day, almost every day, people would be stringing him up, borderline calling him out as a sicko and rapist, and applauding her for keeping her legs shut.


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## RandomDude

alte Dame said:


> RD - This thread is one that I really think about (when I'm doing what I'm supposed to do in my real life) because of the very serious issues you have going on with your wife's need for sex.
> 
> Again, I will say that your giving up alcohol was an excellent first step toward fixing your life in general & that you can use the strength that gives you to approach other things in more mature, measured ways.
> 
> You can give yourself more time in all of this. You can insist that your W give it time. Your ultimatum to her sounds like a primal scream that drained both of you completely. You need to get strong again before you make any serious life-changing decisions. The divorce isn't a runaway train that you have no control over. You can set a time for yourselves - say one month - in which to cool down and think & then you can revisit.
> 
> When your life is a soap opera, everything is very urgent. Take a deep breath & let go of the drama. Give yourself some real time to think.


Thanks alte Dame, but unfortunately there's no going back now. My daughter has had a rough day yesterday and this morning it was even worse. No amount of words of affirmation and love could get her to leave me behind and what hurt the most was that she no longer believed me when I promised her that I will see her next week.

I can't take my wife back, not after that. I do not want to know that my daughter went through hell FOR NOTHING. If my wife even dares to come back to me I will despise her for the rest of my life for being indecisive and putting my daughter through that when she COULD HAVE JUST COMPROMISED BEFOREHAND

@Jaquen

It's culture unfortunately - man are supposed to be walking hard-ons, and if not, he's not a man; and my case is not exactly common which makes it difficult for most to understand I guess

EDIT: Anyways thanks guys, but I can no longer afford what ifs and what nots as my marriage is over. I'm sorry I can't give you guys any good news but this is just the way it is. Please, let's move on from this thread.


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## alte Dame

So sorry. Best of luck to you.


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