# Don't you think I already feel bad enough about this?



## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

My H is having such a hard time facing the issue that is breaking us up. I really am starting to feel bad for him. But I cannot move forward til we deal with it. I know it will just happen again and again. I STILL don't know how long he has been going to live cams or how far it went.

I understand that porn is a fantasy. But live cam to cam sex chat sites do not even seem like fantasy anymore. From what I saw, it was all very, very real. Women seeking men, men seeking women, etc. looked like a no strings sex hookup site to me. And if he didn't cheat "in real life", he was just about to...

3 months since dday, when I found out by accident. He has only admitted to what I found and not one ounce more. I don't know how you can have REPEATED visits to a site like this and have that be all there is. In any case, I still don't know why and without knowing why, how long, etc. how can I move forward?

When I brought it up tonight, he visibly wilted and said, "Don't you think I already feel bad enough about this?"


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

And yes, I changed my username.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

That's the sort of thing wayward spouses say when they are just lucid enough to know "Stop bringing this up so I can rug-sweep, deny, blameshift and gaslight you more effectively!" would not be well received. 

Sorry.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

getting hard to keep track of all of the name changes!


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Sorry AR about that! This is much more uplifting to me than LWC....grasping for any lifeline of empowerment


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Rowan said:


> That's the sort of thing wayward spouses say when they are just lucid enough to know "Stop bringing this up so I can rug-sweep, deny, blameshift and gaslight you more effectively!" would not be well received.
> 
> Sorry.


Thanks, rowan, i was afraid of that.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Because of the username change, I'm not sure if I've asked / had answered this question before.

Are you in counseling? Is your counselor trained in porn addiction? sorry if this is common knowledge re your situation.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Because of the username change, I'm not sure if I've asked / had answered this question before.
> 
> Are you in counseling? Is your counselor trained in porn addiction? sorry if this is common knowledge re your situation.


Yes I have had a meeting with a counselor. He said he would do this also but hasn't yet. I don't think he has an addiction, though, because of medical issues first on his side, and then on mine, that brought sex to 0 last year.

Its the fact that he still seems to be keeping something hidden, afraid it will hurt me. I don't care if it hurts, I just want the truth.


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## Onmyway (Apr 25, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> I don't care if it hurts, I just want the truth.


Isn't that the truth, I think I've told my wife that same thing 40 times now.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Onmyway said:


> Isn't that the truth, I think I've told my wife that same thing 40 times now.


Why do we keep saying this, onmyway??? There must be another way....

Just left a letter for him where he left one for me the other day.

i said, in part, "I don't want to FORCE you to reconcile. Its OK. Truth, Honesty, Love and Respect should be freely given, by each of us, as a gift. If your heart won't allow you to do this willingly, I don't want it. You are free to choose whatever you want to do, as am I. Everybody's Free."


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> Why do we keep saying this, onmyway??? There must be another way....
> 
> Just left a letter for him where he left one for me the other day.
> 
> i said, in part, "I don't want to FORCE you to reconcile. Its OK. Truth, Honesty, Love and Respect should be freely given, by each of us, as a gift. If your heart won't allow you to do this willingly, I don't want it. You are free to choose whatever you want to do, as am I. Everybody's Free."


I said same last night...I want to know it all...


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Ingalls said:


> I said same last night...I want to know it all...


You know, ingalls, et al. this is where most Rs break down, I think I read from an affaircare post. So, I am now working on a project called T or C's....

I am going to craft a letter called Truth or Consequences to give to WS. And forget about everything else I need for R. Because, afterall, without the real truth, whats the point of going on with it??


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I still think he is addicted. I'm sorry but that's been my feeling from the start. He got in way over his head into this and now can't have a true relationship with a real live woman. These cam women are compliant. They do anything you want them to. They cater to your every whim just like strippers and hookers. Real life isn't like that. He can't deal with real life anymore.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> I still think he is addicted. I'm sorry but that's been my feeling from the start. He got in way over his head into this and now can't have a true relationship with a real live woman. These cam women are compliant. They do anything you want them to. They cater to your every whim just like strippers and hookers. Real life isn't like that. He can't deal with real life anymore.


I know, B..... I am starting to get that idea also.

I really, really, really loved him.

Dammit, this sux.

I don't even want to embark on a bunch of years of sex addiction recovery, after my childhood, no I don't think I can be very "supportive", no matter how much I might try.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

And it was amateur cams, not pros, so I guess that's what led me to think it wasn't fantasy anymore, but getting all to close to happening in real life....

don't know what difference it makes.

but its like AFF, people hooking up for no strings sex. I guess it really doesn't matter


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

ParachuteOn said:


> And it was amateur cams, not pros, so I guess that's what led me to think it wasn't fantasy anymore, but getting all to close to happening in real life....
> 
> don't know what difference it makes.
> 
> but its like AFF, people hooking up for no strings sex. I guess it really doesn't matter


Amateur, professional, it doesn't matter. Its all fantasy and not real life. That's why he can't deal with real life anymore. He's addicted to the fantasy life. I'm so sorry you're going through this.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> I still think he is addicted. I'm sorry but that's been my feeling from the start.


As you probably figured out, I think so too. 


And again, I think the counselor needs to be trained in sex / porn addiction. And frankly, they are trained in infidelity in general, because they are all escapist behaviors on a sliding scale.


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## Honeystly (Mar 1, 2012)

It sounds like porn addiction. I have been reading up on the progression of it on the internet, as I suspect my ex also might have the same problem. He just spent 4K in 4 months on his video phone... It could start as just a kick, and then go into harder stuff, camcorders. If that's the case, then your H is very into this. I had this issue 6 years ago when I found porn on my computer. When I confronted my H, he said he was glad I found it, because he just couldn't stop. I remember right before I found out, our sex life dwindled and he used to look at me funny. That in itself was strange, because I do have a great body (that's what people told me, you know what I mean...). That stuff is hard to beat. It seems to be a coping strategy in regards to stress. Then there is the whole thing of self validation, especially in musicians as you know. They need to be adored, even if it's fake. Let me know how it pans out.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Well, thanks to everybody, really.....the support has been a lifesaver for me.....not so much for the marriage, though...

I just can't do it anymore. He came home last night like nothing was wrong. No response to my letter. He went to get something for dinner and brought it home. We made small talk about American Idol, then I asked him if he read my note. He said yes and then changed the subject. So I gave up, asked him for money so I could have bus fare and figure out where I was going to go.

He gave me 260 that he borrowed from DD to give back to her, and *four dollars* for myself. (this is enough bus fare for 2 trips in my city) We got into it. He said he has tried everything and all I want to do is talk about problems and fight. I started yelling, "I don't even know how long this has been going on!!!" And he said, .........wait for it.....A YEAR. (He admitted to a couple months up until this moment.)

Started his usual "Why don't you just calm down" routine .....delivered, as usual, with a smirk. Then he walked out of the room!! GGGrrrrrrrrrr. I followed him and was LIVID... "You have been cheating for a YEAR??!!!" And off to the races.

I was crying and yelling and getting in his face, he was doing his usual disrespectful crap. It was horrible, absolutely a nightmare, just like all our other fights. He kept telling me to shut up and calm down, so of course, like a child, I yelled even louder, yelled at the top of my lungs.

I know, I know, I should have never done this, I know it was bad. He ended up putting me back in my place (yes, physically, told me to stop walking around the house trying to be dominant, broke the door off the hinges to the library-where I sleep, and this morning left without a word.

Its finally at rock bottom. Its over. I don't know why I am crying, but I am. I should just leave now that he is at work. But I lose my whole life and all my heirlooms, the baby cradle my Grandmother made that has been through 3 generations, my pianos, irreplaceable stuff. I've already lost so much. My heart is broken all over again. 

Betrayed spouse never leaves. How in the world can I stand up for anything like that? He has all the money, I have nothing but this house and everything in it.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Honeystly said:


> It sounds like porn addiction. I have been reading up on the progression of it on the internet, as I suspect my ex also might have the same problem. He just spent 4K in 4 months on his video phone... It could start as just a kick, and then go into harder stuff, camcorders. If that's the case, then your H is very into this. I had this issue 6 years ago when I found porn on my computer. When I confronted my H, he said he was glad I found it, because he just couldn't stop. I remember right before I found out, our sex life dwindled and he used to look at me funny. That in itself was strange, because I do have a great body (that's what people told me, you know what I mean...). That stuff is hard to beat. It seems to be a coping strategy in regards to stress. Then there is the whole thing of self validation, especially in musicians as you know. They need to be adored, even if it's fake. Let me know how it pans out.


OMG, too bad we don't live in the same part of the world, we could join forces and get a big house together and call it "Recovering Music Wives Club"


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> I started yelling, "I don't even know how long this has been going on!!!" And he said, .........wait for it.....A YEAR. (He admitted to a couple months up until this moment.)
> 
> Started his usual "Why don't you just calm down" routine .....delivered, as usual, with a smirk. Then he walked out of the room!! GGGrrrrrrrrrr. I followed him and was LIVID... "You have been cheating for a YEAR??!!!" And off to the races.
> 
> I was crying and yelling and getting in his face, he was doing his usual disrespectful crap. It was horrible, absolutely a nightmare, just like all our other fights.


The sad thing is, WSs never 'get it': that we need to hear the whole story first thing, front and center. So many of them think that they are still in control once the cat is out of the bag. That they can manage the information and minimize the damage.

They think if their bad behavior stopped on DD, then it's over and recovery can start. They just DON'T GET the essence of an affair is secrets and lies.

So what do they go and do? KEEP ON TELLING LIES.

There is their marriage, gasping for its last breath, and they just can't resist stamping on it one more time for good measure.

I see in your husband, however, ZERO regret. His smirk makes me think he finds it all vaguely amusing. As if you are under his thumb and there's nothing you can do about it. At this late date HE is never going to hit rock bottom. Which means it is sadly time to kick his sorry ***out.

I am sorry I'm not familiar with all your threads. Have you obtained legal counseling? Perhaps a lot of your fear regarding finances and things is just that, fear, and a lawyer can put things in a more accurate perspective so you know what your choices are.

I am so very sorry.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I agree with the immediate need for you to seek legal counsel. 

At least in my state, anything that you came to the marriage with or inherited from your family during your marriage, belongs to you alone in the case of a divorce. There may very well be a way for you to have him move out while you keep all of your family things. Only a local attorney can tell you what your real options are.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> The sad thing is, WSs never 'get it': that we need to hear the whole story first thing, front and center. So many of them think that they are still in control once the cat is out of the bag. That they can manage the information and minimize the damage.
> 
> They think if their bad behavior stopped on DD, then it's over and recovery can start. They just DON'T GET the essence of an affair is secrets and lies.
> 
> ...


He has reget, on the days I am not angry..... And there is no kicking him out.....He just says he doesn't have to leave and then walks away. If I push it he will just laugh and say "I'd like to see you make me, and then, that's right, you guessed it, walks away.

He isn't always like this, just when he thinks he's "dealt with it". He'll just announce "end of story". He can be very stubborn.

The problem now is, I just can't take it, I feel betrayed, I am triggering badly because of past sexual abuse. He has helped me through this in the past, and now is treating me the same way, except now, the perpetrator is HIM and not my father.

I don't even know what's normal anymore. I have been on many different treatments and have a very bad reaction to those type of drugs. I have been able to manage it on my own for a long time, and this whole thing is about to put me back into the hospital.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> He has reget, on the days I am not angry..... And there is no kicking him out.....He just says he doesn't have to leave and then walks away. If I push it he will just laugh and say "I'd like to see you make me, and then, that's right, you guessed it, walks away.
> 
> He isn't always like this, just when he thinks he's "dealt with it". He'll just announce "end of story". He can be very stubborn.


I just could not be with someone who did this--basically, kicked me when I was down. Infidelity is bad enough, this is almost worse to me. I would see it as an effort to control and manipulate me and it would turn all of my love to disgust and scorn. My self-worth would not allow it. I would do anything I could to find a way to get away from such a person.

I hope you visit an attorney and learn precisely what your rights are. You don't have to act on it. But I still see that fear that you will lose it all to be driving your choices. I think you will find out that at least some of those fears are unfounded and it will give you strength to believe you have alternatives.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

If he got physical and broke a door then he would indeed have to leave. Did he physically hurt you. If so you need to seek help. There is no way he should lay a hand on you or threaten you. I'm a tad (okay more than a tad) concerned for your safety.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> If he got physical and broke a door then he would indeed have to leave. Did he
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Thanks b I am ok
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

No, actually its me that flips out and he usually doesn't. He is mean with words and attitude, mostly.

When I got upset I threw the pc in the trash, things like that. Bang on the door when he locks me out of the master bedroom....... Its not one sided, not at all.

I do feel controlled though, financially and like I have no say over anything if he is upset.

I really wish I could find the way out of the cave.

All I know is now it is just about our fighting, and the real problem (his lies and betrayal) have fallen by the wayside, and won't get addressed at all now.


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## profos (Apr 19, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> He has only admitted to what I found and not one ounce more.


That says it all. Nothing left for you here.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

profos said:


> That says it all. Nothing left for you here.


He says he understands, as in, "yeah ---if you were doing this while i am at work, i would be pi$$ed and feel it was a betrayal of our vows"---then he goes back to saying, "you are ending our marriage over a web page??!"

It's not even porn, c'mon! Its girls with their youknowwhats on cam live for free because they want to hook up!  Good Lord. Do I really have to start over? Its so exhausting.....

Now we are back to the silent treatment and I used to be hurt by this, now I am just happy to have the peace and quiet.


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## Honeystly (Mar 1, 2012)

What I'm not sure I understand is the bit where he tells you that you can't make him leave. I would ask a lawyer about that. In separation somebody has to go. Find out what your rights are, you know? That sounds so torturous. My ex stayed for a week after we separated and before he moved out and I wanted to slash my wrists. Nothing worse than the silent treatment. It is my ex's secret weapon. I find it agonising. I say, find out how you can boot him out. You deserve peace.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> He says he understands, as in, "yeah ---if you were doing this while i am at work, i would be pi$$ed and feel it was a betrayal of our vows"---then he goes back to saying, "you are ending our marriage over a web page??!"
> 
> It's not even porn, c'mon! Its girls with their youknowwhats on cam live for free because they want to hook up! Good Lord. Do I really have to start over? Its so exhausting.....
> 
> Now we are back to the silent treatment and I used to be hurt by this, now I am just happy to have the peace and quiet.


We all know it isn't about a web page.

It's about how he doesn't think he did anything wrong.

He is likely addicted and will never be able to stop without help.

But let's pretend it's not an addiction. It's clear HE doesn't want to stop, because he values having fun, and engaging in his little habit, far, far more than he values respecting you.

I have a question for you. When are you going to hit rock bottom? Not him--he's apparently a lost cause from all you've said.

But what about you?


Where is your self-love and self-respect?

You have created your own imaginary world where living without him means poverty and a loss of your inherited things. As has already been pointed out, you have chosen not to find out whether or not these fears are real, or just a fantasy.

Again, what is your rock bottom?


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> We all know it isn't about a web page.
> 
> It's about how he doesn't think he did anything wrong.
> 
> ...


I know what you are saying, iheartlife, I really appriciate the time you have taken to understand my story. I have asked myself this question also. 

I have overcome a lot in life. I have 2 degrees and make more money than him when I work. I don't think my leaving will mean poverty. I do feel that if I left, he may do something vindictive, like get rid of my family things, because he knows I can replace everything else.

I quit working when we married because I wanted to be home with my daughter. She needed focus and guidance to finish school. Now she is out of the house in her first year of college. She is doing very well, and I think that is when all this started, when it was just the two of us again.

I was going to end it about 5 1/2 years ago, when we had a HUGE blowup. I was having back problems and at the dr. visit, found out I was pregnant. I had always wanted another child. He was so apologetic and did everything to fix our marriage. We stayed together and he helped with everything, went to all my appointments with me, was a doting, expectant dad.

Well around the 6th month I had a fetal demise. It was a tragic and sad time, I fell into deep depression and he took care of me, but had a few drinking bouts that were scary.....I chalked it up to him dealing with the death of the baby.....There were 2 more family deaths at the time....I started to think the place we were living in had some kind of curse....so I found the house we now live in, and we moved far away from that place.

My husband has been through hell and back with me. And he feels that he has not cheated, but has betrayed his vow. He said he has never been with anyone else and truly doesn't understand why we cant just move on.

But I don't feel the same. I feel like this time is different, because he destroyed the hard drive when I found out. I feel like we can't solve anything because he wont budge. My feeling is that it is because it is all a lie----and thats why he wont delve deeper and only repeats the Official Story.

In any case, I am sure that I am having a hard time ending it because, to be honest, finding out all this stuff has been horrible but strangely good at the same time. Because of my childhood, I was actually RELIEVED that his secret sex life was with age-appropriate women, it makes me trust him in a way I would have never been able to! Now hows that for mixed-up!!??

Sorry this just came spilling over.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

*But let's pretend it's not an addiction. It's clear HE doesn't want to stop, because he values having fun, and engaging in his little habit, far, far more than he values respecting you.*


Ok, iheart, this is a good one. Really good, actually. 

Trouble is, he really thinks he IS respecting the marriage by doing this instead of things like "actual" cheating.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> *But let's pretend it's not an addiction. It's clear HE doesn't want to stop, because he values having fun, and engaging in his little habit, far, far more than he values respecting you.*
> 
> 
> Ok, iheart, this is a good one. Really good, actually.
> ...


That is where you get away from the sex stuff.

You have to see it's not about the sex stuff, that is a red herring. It is tricking you and preventing you from focusing on what is important. You are looking off in the direction of live cam sex girls, but that really isn't the issue. Really, it's not!




It's about respect--a level of respect that every spouse has reason to expect from their life partner.

Let's say every week he took one of your heirlooms and chopped it up and burned it for firewood.

How long would your marriage last then?

What I'm trying to point out is that this is what he has done. Piece by piece, lie by lie, he has stolen away your self confidence, your legitimate marital boundaries, even a great deal of your love for him. And then he's chopped them up and burned them right in front of you.

A loving spouse will understand that there are certain things they have to compromise and give up--that this is part of marriage.

This is a core lesson he has never understood. He is never going to "get it" without marital counseling. (He might not "get it" then either, but he doesn't have a prayer without it.)


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> I know, B..... I am starting to get that idea also.
> 
> I really, really, really loved him.
> 
> Dammit, this sux.


You're not the only one facing this, so don't feel alone. I'm sorry for what you're going through. It does indeed suck! 

Guys that get stuck in fantasy and then insist that it isn't part of the real world are just holding on the delusion; until they give that up, nothing will change. The hardest part is realizing you can't change this no matter how much you love him.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

I know, I know, he is just giving me more crap. I know.

Today he says, "I will not discuss it again! I am tired of getting b!tched out about cam girls, I am Done! Every weekend?, I am done with this! I said I would work it out with you, I said I am sorry, I said I was wrong, and that is enough! If you don't want to move forward from here? Then Leave me alone! Dont talk to me anymore about this!"

There you go. Then He left.

I said its ok ---why dont you leave if you are done with me? You have money and it would be easy for you....why stay and make demands on me?? I am not stopping you.....there is the door ---you are free!!! 

His reply??

"I don't have to. Stop trying to boss me around."

Bleh..... he is gone, running errands.....I know my only choice now? Is to stay quiet and not speak when he comes home.....So I think I will just play piano in the music room and think about where I can go. What friends I can stay with, etc,

I just think its CRAZY that he is still here bossing ME around!! This is our marital home!! I am not lying and cheating! Good Lord. Who lies to your face, breaks their vows and then STAYS issuing demands??

Such ridiculousness.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

ParachuteOn said:


> I just think its CRAZY that he is still here bossing ME around!! This is our marital home!! I am not lying and cheating! Good Lord. Who lies to your face, breaks their vows and then STAYS issuing demands??
> 
> Such ridiculousness.


I am saying this to you, betrayed wife to betrayed wife. There _is_ one more thing that's even more ridiculous, and you know what it is: lying down and taking it by staying there and not getting a firm idea of what your alternatives are. Your concrete alternatives might scare the sh** out of him and force him into counseling. Or they may open up a new world for you, free from this person who mistreats you so.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I am saying this to you, betrayed wife to betrayed wife. There _is_ one more thing that's even more ridiculous, and you know what it is: lying down and taking it by staying there and not getting a firm idea of what your alternatives are. Your concrete alternatives might scare the sh** out of him and force him into counseling. Or they may open up a new world for you, free from this person who mistreats you so.


Thank you so much iheartlife and everyone...thank you for your honest and respectful reply. I am thinking hard about your heartfelt posts to me.


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Waking up and there is only quiet and birds outside.

Fixed the door to the library and locked myself in around 3pm yesterday, fell asleep in all my comfy blankets and slept for a LONG time.

I was thinking that now the silent treatment will be in full force for quite a while...why not just go with it? I have lots to do. Should really go through the things in the attic, organize everything, see what all is really up there with the family stuff. I need to do this in the basement also...Maybe a garage sale when I'm done?

I have cried and fought with him over being ignored in my own house, even made it my #1 thing I needed for R = No More Silent Treatment. Well, I guess its no surprise he would agree to that and then not do it. 

Why not start enjoying it? Its better than hearing him yell about how yelling is wrong. And I just might be able to get done what I have long needed to....


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Silent treatment extraordinaire! My favorite is when he actually stays home from work to ignore me! LOLS -- What's the point of that?? He is playing lose-lose all the way. 

I finally get it. It isn't the other women at all. Its the disrespect, the contempt. That's what all cheating is based on, isn't it?


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## ParachuteOn (Apr 20, 2012)

Now that I have actually been thinking of selling things so I can move, my H has said he is taking the day aff of work because we need to "work things out". Bleh. Why does thins happen when I give up? Why does he do this when I have had enough and am ready to get out? It seems glaringly obvious that he always wants what he can't have. We haven't been on the same page for longer than a few days at a time ever since dday.


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