# Justification re Other BS



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I see posts from cheaters characterizing their BSs negatively or the marriage being bad etc. The more sophisticated cheaters seem to realize they will be challenged on this,so they add that they know it is still not right (But one wonders why they included the background information at all,if not to elicit sympathy). 
But,I cannot understand how,even if their own spouse was the monster they state,they deal with the issue of participating in harming the other BS and kids.
One of the guys my XW had an affair with was married with two kids. His wife is very nice and kind. His kids were young and innocent.
My XW may have been dissatisfied with me,but I.can only conclude she lacks capacity for empathy due to her willingness to harm that wife and kids.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hello


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Some would suggest it comes down to self-preservation, the acceptance of total blame-ness on their actions is abhorrent to their ego, therefore it is best to mask total blame acceptance with underlining tones of propagating the spouse or the marriage as less than ideal manner. And when you try to seek a conspired partner, optionally you want to seek someone who either falls in two categories, someone completely opposite your your spouse (Bad girl or Bad boy imagery) or someone who demonstrates a loving and caring behavior /actions with their own family and would make an ideal substitute.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Maxo said:


> The more sophisticated cheaters seem to realize they will be challenged on this,so *they add that they know it is still not right *(But one wonders why they included the background information at all,if not to elicit sympathy).


Ah yes, we see that a lot here. The "disclaimer" clause.

As I see it, if the BS asks the WS for the reason they cheated, fine. Otherwise, the WS would be well advised not to even mention them to the BS or anyone else. It reeks of rationalization and blame shifting. 

Some WS's that are truly remorseful, eventually come to understand that.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think it's definitely a lack of empathy, but that to me is just one facet of the destructively self-absorbed personality. People like this don't even consider the other actors in the drama outside of themselves and their AP's. To them, everybody else is just background noise, if even that. Forget about the children of the people they cheat with, their own children are background noise to them.

We say they justify, but what we see as justification is hard truth to them. In their self-absorption, they believe what they are thinking completely. I think often that it is only when they start to see what they will lose when they are busted that the cognitive dissonance can start to make some of these 'truths' look a little less 'truthy.'


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> I see posts from cheaters characterizing their BSs negatively or the marriage being bad etc. The more sophisticated cheaters seem to realize they will be challenged on this,so they add that they know it is still not right (But one wonders why they included the background information at all,if not to elicit sympathy).
> But,I cannot understand how,even if their own spouse was the monster they state,they deal with the issue of participating in harming the other BS and kids.
> One of the guys my XW had an affair with was married with two kids. His wife is very nice and kind. His kids were young and innocent.
> My XW may have been dissatisfied with me,but I.can only conclude she lacks capacity for empathy due to her willingness to harm that wife and kids.


 First, where did you ever get the idea that cheaters were "more sophisticated" than anybody else? This type of thought crops up constantly in many threads. The WS is usually portrayed as either a moron, or an evil genius....sometimes both in the same post. Neither are true. The only thing stupid cheaters and smart cheaters have in common, is selfishness, and that is why they will ruin the lives of others, without too much thought.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> In my EA case, it was an escape from an unsettling situation (described in my thread). Part of it was to escape a poor marriage which I helped created, part of it was to escape my unhappy emotional life. The harm this caused my wife was not something I thought about. My wife always said I lack empathy. I am a more rational, analytical person. When confronted with a situation I could not logically solve, I sought escape. I had no intent to leave my wife and still don't.


From what I have read and observed,the lack of empathy and a lack of a sense of fair play,seem to be recurrent characteristics in cheaters.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> First, where did you ever get the idea that cheaters were "more sophisticated" than anybody else? This type of thought crops up constantly in many threads. The WS is usually portrayed as either a moron, or an evil genius....sometimes both in the same post. Neither are true. The only thing stupid cheaters and smart cheaters have in common, is selfishness, and that is why they will ruin the lives of others, without too much thought.


Who said that? Go back and re-read. I have no idea what you are talking about.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

This is in contrast to the ordinary or less sophisticated cheater.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I read this to mean "the more sophisticated the cheater....", not that cheaters are more sophisticated.
> 
> This is in contrast to the ordinary or less sophisticated cheater.


Sorry about any ambiguity. Yes,that is what I meant.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I honestly have come to see that cheating isn't all that complicated, they got attention, they liked, wanted more of it, and were too selfish to think about anything else..... I no longer buy the whole marriage was bad or good deal business, to me that's just secondary. 

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

The point I'm trying to make is that the level of sophistication or intelligence of the WS has no bearing, whatsoever, on their concern (or lack of it) for anybody else. I am a fairly wealthy man, and have been around folks from all walks of life, and I have never seen where any group is more or less prone to cheating, or more imbued with a conscience than any other. The single dynamic they all share is selfishness. They are willing to ruin anybody, to satisfy their own urges. The bottom line, Maxo, is that your wife, simply didn't care about her AP's wife and kids, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything else, except her own desires..


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Cheater are one thing and one thing only - totally selfish.

Thoughts of how their actions will affect other never enter their mind.

The focus is entirely on what they want.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Maxo said:


> I see posts from cheaters characterizing their BSs negatively or the marriage being bad etc. The more sophisticated cheaters seem to realize they will be challenged on this,so they add that they know it is still not right (But one wonders why they included the background information at all,if not to elicit sympathy).
> But,I cannot understand how,even if their own spouse was the monster they state,they deal with the issue of participating in harming the other BS and kids.
> One of the guys my XW had an affair with was married with two kids. His wife is very nice and kind. His kids were young and innocent.
> My XW may have been dissatisfied with me,but I.can only conclude she lacks capacity for empathy due to her willingness to harm that wife and kids.



I know. I have noticed that too


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> The point I'm trying to make is that the level of sophistication or intelligence of the WS has no bearing, whatsoever, on their concern (or lack of it) for anybody else. I am a fairly wealthy man, and have been around folks from all walks of life, and I have never seen where any group is more or less prone to cheating, or more imbued with a conscience than any other. The single dynamic they all share is selfishness. They are willing to ruin anybody, to satisfy their own urges. The bottom line, Maxo, is that your wife, simply didn't care about her AP's wife and kids, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with anything else, except her own desires..


I agree re my XW. 

The sophistication characterization was meant to address those folks familiar with the lack of tolerance on boards like this for justifying. I meant these folks were knowledgeable enough to realize excuses would not be received well,not that they were more sophisticated in general. I should have been clearer. Sorry.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

No prob, Maxo. I wish I had a nickel for all of the times I was unclear or misspoke.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, don't feel lonesome, with regards to your wife. My ex wife cared about me and her family and position a great deal, before the affair, and ENORMOUSLY after the affair. During the affair , she only cared about her selfish desires, and was willing and able to forget about everything else. But that is what they do. After the affair, the will do anything to evade blame, or to justify themselves (mostly TO themselves) they will even admit to being temporarily nuts. How many times have we heard the same things. "that wasn't the real me", I didn't know what I was doing" etc. But it all adds up to selfishness.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I've never understood how a woman could do this to another woman. I couldn't. Maybe because my mom was a BS and I saw what she went through. 

My cheating SIL received a phone call from the OM wife early on before the affair went physical, asking SIL to please cool it with all the texting her husband. SIL ignored it. It's just one more thing of many that reveals her true selfishness.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

While never having experienced infidelity myself, I would say from my time here I've seen an assortment of approaches with some predominent themes (tho there can be undercurrents of all): 

Victim - feels they are justified because they are the 'victim' in a bad marriage
Selfish - feels they are owed something they aren't getting at home; likes flattery, usually esteem issues
Physical - they compartmentalize that it's just physical - like scratching an itch
Ostrich - they avoid analyzing it at all - easily led and swept away and usually easily caught
Rationalizer - the rose colored glasses sort of mask all of the issues back home related to the potential fallout - kids will be ok, I won't get caught, it's not forever, spouse probably screwing too, spouse doesn't love me really, APs spouse doesn't love AP, etc.

Only a true narcissist or psychopath doesn't have empathy; cheaters either avoid thinking about it, rationalize it, compartmentalize it or minimize the fallout.

In all of them, they are avoiding the confrontation and vulnerability of telling their own spouse there is an issue - a big one - and the marriage is falling apart.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

TDSC60 said:


> Cheater are one thing and one thing only - totally selfish.
> 
> Thoughts of how their actions will affect other never enter their mind.
> 
> The focus is entirely on what they want.


As a WS I agree. 

I am a very loving, giving person.

People that know me know this about me. They know that I’m amazing at fundraising, that when someone is in need, I’m the go to person to get it done. I get messages constantly from people asking me to help someone in need because I’m just a giver by nature. I’ve been called selfless more times than I can count. Been praised countless times for the size of my heart for the things I’ve organized for people…..

But the night that I cheated…..I didn’t care, nor think about anyone else but me. The ego stroking, the good feelings I was having from him complimenting me, the adoration….all of the things I thought I was missing for so long. All I cared about was feeling that. I didn’t think about my husband, I didn’t think about my kids, his fiancé (who was my friend), his kids, our friends. I did say things early on in the night about him needing to stop saying the things he was saying and to stop pushing the physical part of it because it would hurt people. But the longer it went on, the more I felt the SELFISH need to continue hearing those things. I completely fed into the things he was saying and allowed him to continue with it for my OWN personal gain. 

Complete, utter, total selfishness.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

I was in a marriage which didn't honour me for a long time. I made it known to H & asked him to go to MC repeatedly. He finally agreed but didn't show up for the first 3 appointments, at the last minute in all cases, citing various weak excuses. So I sat there & talked about the weather with MC. Takes two to do MC! I stayed for a few more years for the kids' sake until they got older & left when they were 10, 8 & 3. 

It never even occurred to me to have an A. I work in a male industry & got hit on plenty of times. I just deflected it which is very easy to do btw, so I don't believe the 'AP seduced me' nonsense, another poor excuse & sometimes even the BS thinks that. 

The world is divided into those who will cheat & those who won't IMO. I can't imagine kissing another man if he had a wife/gf or even if he didn't despite having a crap H. 

Cheaters, & I know plenty, have a strong selfish streak which is the same as a strong narcissistic streak. Lack of empathy goes with the territory. They come No 1, regardless of BS, their kids, the AP's spouse & kids. The fact that they will do that much damage to so many other peoples' lives is my case in point. 

I'm no angel, but I'm not a cheater. So I laugh when I read, 'My SO didn't pay me enough attention'. In my case it was emotional abuse so I guess that's an excuse I could have wheeled out if I had cheated. 

Ironically, my H blames me to this day, years later, for 'leaving him, to find myself'. I reply that I've always known where I am. We discussed cheating a few times early in the marriage. & I told him I'd walk the same day. He said I was taking a very hard line! I said, 'Well, you've veen warned'. He may have cheated as he travelled a lot. I think I'd have picked up on it though. There was a woman he worked with that he had stars in his eyes for but she had no interest. At that stage I didn't care if he did run off with her. He was a very selfish & self-centred SOB evidenced by him saying I took a very hard line on cheating. Huh! I would say he belongs in the 'would cheat' camp. 

Ooops, in a writerly mood today & it's probably somewhat of a thread jack too. Apologies


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I've thought about his deeply. And while I don't claim to have full answers, what I have come to is the realization of two things. 

#1 we are animals with minds. Not minds controlling an animal. We have this big new brain that likes to think it's in control of its meat shell, but in reality the part that controls attraction and desire is very loosely coupled to our rational minds - and in terms of attraction, is not controlled by our rational mind at all. We don't decide who we're turned on by, or why, our our kinks. 

#2 the older parts of our brain, which have their own agenda, actually work faster and can be a lot more powerful than the new parts. And if your decision making and rational mind is weakened or not paying attention, you can literally find yourself in a situation driven by your lymbic system that your cortex cannot understand. Or protect its ego structure. As a result, the cortex often tells itself a story about what happened - the marriage sucked (when it didn't), it was the other persons fault for seducing me (it wasn't), I was drunk (in reality you allowed yourself to be with this person knowing the risks), etc. Which makes it really hard to split the two versions of reality, because our brains lie to us all the time. 

At the end of the day, someone cheats because the part of them that wanted to won the battle against the part of them that didn't. 

And maybe the part of themselves that lost the battle never wanted to win in the first place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EnjoliWoman said:


> While never having experienced infidelity myself, I would say from my time here I've seen an assortment of approaches with some predominent themes (tho there can be undercurrents of all):
> 
> Victim - feels they are justified because they are the 'victim' in a bad marriage
> Selfish - feels they are owed something they aren't getting at home; likes flattery, usually esteem issues
> ...


Yes, NPD. I think cheaters are much more highly represented among the personality disordered than the population in general.
I say this not only because of the cheating itself( which shows a lack of empathy) but, also because of the tangential, secondary abuse they often participate in while in the affair , and, many times after discovery, as they scurry to cast blame, oblivious to the fact that by doing so they are causing further trauma.
Many times we stories from BS's that include gaslighting, picking fights, withholding even minimal affection, excessive criticism.
Only the most narcissistic of people are capable of inflicting this abuse and witnessing the effects without it causing some type of empathetic reaction.
I liken it to how folks like Michael Vick could witness what was happening to those poor dogs without feeling terrible. No normal person could do this, IMO.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I think it's simple. There was never a thought given to others in the situation. A selfish person never looks beyond what they want. Others are just simply not in the equation.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Maxo said:


> I see posts from cheaters characterizing their BSs negatively or the marriage being bad etc. *The more sophisticated cheaters seem to realize they will be challenged on this,so they add that they know it is still not right (But one wonders why they included the background information at all,if not to elicit sympathy). *
> 
> *My XW may have been dissatisfied with me,but I.can only conclude she lacks capacity for empathy due to her willingness to harm that wife and kids.*


As to your first point - it IS to elicit sympathy so they don't seem like the total villain..they are more than happy to share some of the villainy with their BS..its about self-preservation..and any BS who swallows that bullsh!t needs a good 2 x 4...

To your second point they absolutely lack empathy because they don't give two sh!ts about preserving their own family so why would they care about harming a strangers family..think about it..the WS knows the affair could blow up their family and damage a lot of people including their kids - but they still go for it..the other persons family is not going to get in the way of their own pleasure. @chumplady cuts through cheater bullsh!t better than anyone I've read so far.....


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

For me the pain is not that a cheater is selfish, although that is certainly true. The pain is not that the cheater just did what he/she wanted, although that also must be true.

For me the pain is that what the cheater selfishly wanted to do was to be with someone other than me. When the desire struck and the WS did what he/she wanted to do, it was to have someone else.

That is the hurt and the betrayal for me. That is why an EA can be just as devastating as a PA.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> As to your first point - it IS to elicit sympathy so they don't seem like the total villain..they are more than happy to share some of the villainy with their BS..its about self-preservation..and any BS who swallows that bullsh!t needs a good 2 x 4...
> 
> To your second point they absolutely lack empathy because they don't give two sh!ts about preserving their own family so why would they care about harming a strangers family..think about it..the WS knows the affair could blow up their family and damage a lot of people including their kids - but they still go for it..the other persons family is not going to get in the way of their own pleasure. @chumplady cuts through cheater bullsh!t better than anyone I've read so far.....


The distinction I was trying to draw between their feel for their own family and that of the other BS and his/her family, is that the justifications, be they feelings of neglect, anger at their own BS, dissatisfaction in the ir own marriages etc , could not possibly apply to the other person's BS.
So, when I see a cheater justifying his or her cheating due to the alleged deficiencies in their spouse or marriage, and that particular cheater has become involved with another married person, I inquire how they felt about abusing a person who had never , personally, harmed them.
I think there are tow, if not more, main arguments you can present to a cheater in these situations, which undermines all the justifications.
First , the easy availability of divorce made it a simple option.
Second, the cheaters justifications could not possibly apply to the other BS, except in very rare circumstances.
As to the simplicity of what goes through a cheater's mind and never considering the effects on the BS, that may be true in some instances.
But, I know, due to resentments and perceived grievances, that many times the cheater does actively consider the BS and the effect on the BS, and relishes inflicting the damage .


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Maxo said:


> But, I know, due to resentments and perceived grievances, that many times the cheater does actively consider the BS and the effect on the BS, and relishes inflicting the damage .


Key word *perceived* resentments and grievances...the BS is usually not walking on a cloud thinking how great life is..but the BS didnt cheat...but the cheater is not only inflicting damage on their spouse but also their kids if they have children..and has set an awful example of how to cope with the difficulties of life..


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Maxo,

You wrote, *But,I cannot understand how,even if their own spouse was the monster they state,they deal with the issue of participating in harming the other BS and kids.*

At least partly because they view the innocent other spouse as a monster, or defective, based on what their affair partner told them. For that reason it's good not to allow the cheater to call the OMW or OWH by name, but instead to call them Toms Wife or Little Johnee's father.

It was for this reason that when I saw OM-2s divorced wife was having a yard sale I was sure to bring my wife there. I wanted her to see these people she never met as human beings and not some persecutors of OM-2. His estranged daughter was there as well.

Tamat


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

TAMAT said:


> It was for this reason that when I saw OM-2s divorced wife was having a yard sale I was sure to bring my wife there. I wanted her to see these people she never met as human beings and not some persecutors of OM-2. His estranged daughter was there as well.
> 
> Tamat


So what happened? How did the wife respond?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Maxo said:


> I think cheaters are much more highly represented among the personality disordered than the population in general.


I don't see cheating as rising to a different level than any other willful "tort". Everyday, from Wall Street to back street you see all manner of people cheating, stealing and abusing others in one form or another. 
Some ask about concern over the other BS and the other people hurt. Yet when missiles/bombs are released or a sniper zeroes in on a target, these thoughts are never considered. In its best justification, humans are more than capable of gunning each other down because some leader thinks its the right thing to do.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Maxo said:


> My XW may have been dissatisfied with me, but I can only conclude she lacks capacity for empathy due to her willingness to harm that wife and kids.


They're selfish. 

They don't give a fvck about you OR anyone else other than themselves.

Bottomline. They are in it for themselves.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Only a true narcissist or psychopath doesn't have empathy; cheaters either avoid thinking about it, rationalize it, compartmentalize it or minimize the fallout.


One clarification. I think you mean sociopath not psychopath. There are shades of gray with every neurological disorder. I think you have to have at least more sociopathic tendencies than the average person to be a cheater. Takes a certain kind of person (not in a good way) to be able to ignore the suffering of another for their own enjoyment. Whether that's their BS, kids, OMW, etc. It's exceptionally cruel imo.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

To these types of people, all life is self-indulgence. What happens to other people during the course of this indulgence is in material and doesn't matter. If you don't give them exactly what they want, there is always someone equally self-indulgent and foolish enough to give it to them. I'm not even sure if they're even aware they are hurting other people they never met and never meant them any harm.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> The distinction I was trying to draw between their feel for their own family and that of the other BS and his/her family, is that the justifications, be they feelings of neglect, anger at their own BS, dissatisfaction in the ir own marriages etc , could not possibly apply to the other person's BS.
> So, when I see a cheater justifying his or her cheating due to the alleged deficiencies in their spouse or marriage, and that particular cheater has become involved with another married person, I inquire how they felt about abusing a person who had never , personally, harmed them.
> I think there are tow, if not more, main arguments you can present to a cheater in these situations, which undermines all the justifications.
> First , the easy availability of divorce made it a simple option.
> ...


I would say fewer than you think. After all, to "inflict damage" to the BS, you also have to tell him/her you are doing it.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

How did she respond?

She didn't know about it, we were driving and I said a yard sale and it's on OM-2's street, hey that's OM-2s house or was his house. My W then asked me "do we have to go" to which I didn't answer. My W was pinched she has always denied anything about OM-2 so she couldn't really object to going, but at the same time didn't want to face OM2W.

OM-2s wife went into the house after we got there saying nothing and I was talking with OM-2s daughter, 20 years old, for awhile. I mentioned to my W what a pleasant girl she was. My W is very silent about OM-2.

I think for my W this was more of a guilty affair than the two others because of OM-2s kids and wife.

Tamat


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I would say fewer than you think. After all, to "inflict damage" to the BS, you also have to tell him/her you are doing it.


That is true but post discovery they are often cruel and abusive and many delight in their own private degradation of the BS pre discovery.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> That is true but post discovery they are often cruel and abusive and many delight in their own private degradation of the BS pre discovery.


I agree that some WS's are indeed cruel post discovery, though I wouldn't say that it is very often. The number of cheaters who flaunt their cheating, is very , very small. It is much more likely that they would try to evade or excuse than flaunt or brag. I have known several cheaters besides my ex, and very few of them are proud of it or use the affair to browbeat their BS's. 
As far as the second part is concerned, if the BS does not know about this "private degradation", then how would he know about the ?WS "delight" in it? Remembering that you said that this was PRE discovery. This is like somebody saying that the victim of a bad car crash, "didn't know what hit them" tell me how anybody can know this? Sorry , Maxo , but you are doing what a lot of other BS's (including myself) have done. You are projecting your opinions onto a subject you simply cannot know occurred, until afterwards.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

TAMAT said:


> How did she respond?
> 
> She didn't know about it, we were driving and I said a yard sale and it's on OM-2's street, hey that's OM-2s house or was his house. My W then asked me "do we have to go" to which I didn't answer. My W was pinched she has always denied anything about OM-2 so she couldn't really object to going, but at the same time didn't want to face OM2W.
> 
> ...


You're talking about your _ex_-wife, right?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

TDSC60 said:


> *Cheater are one thing and one thing only - totally selfish.*
> 
> Thoughts of how their actions will affect other never enter their mind.
> 
> *The focus is entirely on what they want*.


Bingo!

My WW prior to being caught was looked at as the most caring, giving, attentive to others needs person you could find. SMOKE-SCREEN in reality. She fooled everyone in that she was in reality, a Serial Cheater... her friends, her parents, her children, and me matter nothing compared to her Selfish Desires. 

It was her façade... Trust No One.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> Truthfully, never crossed my mind. I was too busy thinking about other things.
> 
> I do not lack empathy in all situations. In fact, I am probably more empathetic than most people. Early on, I was not emphatic for my part in the affair. Again, never crossed my mind. Many months later, I do empathize with his STBXW as someone who is going through a divorce at this stage in life. I feel sad about another family being torn apart, just as I do my own. But I had nothing to do with their divorce and he had nothing to do with mine. Those decisions were already in place when we met.
> 
> ...


Never crossed your mind,eh? That shows you lack empathy right there. Your cheating with a married person played no role in his divorce? Perhaps reconcilliation would have been possible for them but for the cheating.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree that some WS's are indeed cruel post discovery, though I wouldn't say that it is very often. The number of cheaters who flaunt their cheating, is very , very small. It is much more likely that they would try to evade or excuse than flaunt or brag. I have known several cheaters besides my ex, and very few of them are proud of it or use the affair to browbeat their BS's.
> As far as the second part is concerned, if the BS does not know about this "private degradation", then how would he know about the ?WS "delight" in it? Remembering that you said that this was PRE discovery. This is like somebody saying that the victim of a bad car crash, "didn't know what hit them" tell me how anybody can know this? Sorry , Maxo , but you are doing what a lot of other BS's (including myself) have done. You are projecting your opinions onto a subject you simply cannot know occurred, until afterwards.


Not at all. I know many BSs who have described to me the flaunting and post discovery cruelty and have read myriad stories of BSs discovering texts and emails where the two cheaters were gloating and ridiculing their spouses.
Surely,if you read on the various sites,you have seen BSs talk about this badmouthing and the delight the two paramours were taking.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

FWIW, unless you have cheated, you cannot understand what a cheater is thinking or feeling. Likewise, unless you have been betrayed, you cannot imagine the pain, feelings, and thoughts of the BS. Just a fact and no amount of reading or posting on forums can change that. IMO.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Not at all. I know many BSs who have described to me the flaunting and post discovery cruelty and have read myriad stories of BSs discovering texts and emails where the two cheaters were gloating and ridiculing their spouses.
> Surely,if you read on the various sites,you have seen BSs talk about this badmouthing and the delight the two paramours were taking.


Myriads, huh? Ok, I'm wasting my time here. Maxo, you , simply put , have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest that you are a surfer, who has no original ideas and only spouts info you have gotten on the web. So I don't think I will respond to any of your posts anymore, unless you actually say something interesting. Carry on.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Myriads, huh? Ok, I'm wasting my time here. Maxo, you , simply put , have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest that you are a surfer, who has no original ideas and only spouts info you have gotten on the web. So I don't think I will respond to any of your posts anymore, unless you actually say something interesting. Carry on.


Ok,I can live with that. I sort of figured when I asked if you were interested in putting your money where your mouth is re my having read your old thread in the past,you might be bowing out.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> Not at the time. My point is that I lacked empathy at that time and in that situation, but I am quite capable of being an empathetic person. I have said many times over that it was not my finest moment. People are capable of all sorts of things, but it doesn't make them sociopaths.
> 
> Nope, the possibility of reconciliation was nil; same for my marriage.
> 
> You are trying to pigeonhole a variety of people and their stories and claim there is some sort of trait associated with their behavior. It doesn't work, in my opinion.


 I disagree. Most cheatersare dishonest,and selfish. Their actions demo strate this.
They may have areas of warmth( Hitler was fond of his dogsand young Arayan kids).
But,to lie so much and to not even consider the effects on others of this cruel,abusive behavior speaks volumes about the cheater's traits,IMO.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Maxo said:


> I disagree. Most cheatersare dishonest,and selfish. Their actions demo strate this.
> They may have areas of warmth( Hitler was fond of his dogsand young Arayan kids).
> But,to lie so much and to not even consider the effects on others of this cruel,abusive behavior speaks volumes about the cheater's traits,IMO.


I know you're in pain. There are as many underlying social and emotional mechanisms for cheating as there are cheaters. 

They truly are special snowflakes. 

If you're looking for a root cause, it's in our biology. Lymbic vs neocortex. One wins and one looses, or one wasn't trying very hard to win in the first place. 

At the end of the day, humanity is 'monogamish.' Looking at our DNA, a shockingly high amount of our ancestors ****ed around. 

So it's in who we are. If you're trying to assign blame, you're looking at the wrong field: the only common answers I've ever found are in our biology, not in society or psychology.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

marduk said:


> I know you're in pain. There are as many underlying social and emotional mechanisms for cheating as there are cheaters.
> 
> They truly are special snowflakes.
> 
> ...


Chumplady has a number of good threads on the biologically driven theory.
In a nutshell,there are many biological urges that our rational minds overcome for a variety of reasons that seem beneficial to society and our human relationships.
One example I have seen is resistance to defecating in random public places. There are many others.
I see you are familiar with Dan Savage's "monogamish" term. I know he refers to the natural biological urge you cite,as well.
But,Dan' s advocacy,surprisingly for a reasonably bright guy,completely omits the critical consideration of the legitamacy of subterfuge.
See,if Dan sincerely believes in variety ,his advocacy for deceit in not alerting the partner,is disingenuous,as one would think he wants his partner to partake in similar pleasurable dalliances.
Yet,Savage advocates deceit,which deprives the person he allegedly cares for,his partner,of partaking,assuming his partner is a man of his word.
Marduk,wouldn't you agree that the graviman of the harm consist,in part,of the theft of another's time,fraud causing ghd betrayed to forego all types of option?
If so,the naturalness of cheating is irrelevant. If one recognizes the inability to resist this natural urge in oneself,one has a moral obligaption to disclose. Open relationships are not uncommon and allow for the pursuit of this urge honestly.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Maxo said:


> Chumplady has a number of good threads on the biologically driven theory.
> In a nutshell,there are many biological urges that our rational minds overcome for a variety of reasons that seem beneficial to society and our human relationships.
> One example I have seen is resistance to defecating in random public places. There are many others.
> I see you are familiar with Dan Savage's "monogamish" term. I know he refers to the natural biological urge you cite,as well.
> ...


My point is simply this. 

Biologically, we are somewhat monogamous. Loosely. Not as non-monogamous as bonobos, but not as monogamous as gibbons. 

So we sneak our way into non-monogamy. While claiming to be strictly monogamous. With things like serial monogamy, something I myself am. I mean, I've had a rather large number of partners, but never have cheated. 

My point is that we have been put in a rather angstful hand-wringing situation. Our biology wants us to sometimes partake, but our sociology doesn't. 

And on that, savage and I part company. Because when it comes to cheating, he's a ****ing idiot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

marduk said:


> My point is simply this.
> 
> Biologically, we are somewhat monogamous. Loosely. Not as non-monogamous as bonobos, but not as monogamous as gibbons.
> 
> ...


I do not disagree with the non-monogamous by nature theory.
But,as I said,the deceit is,clearly,the harming factor.
Perhaps in the past people did not have the options for open relationships,but they do today.
I say have at it,if that is your thing,but don't steal time and options from another by lying.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I myself don't fully believe on the biological urges as main factors for infidelity, perhaps secondary, but primary is most definitely selfishness and lack empathy. If it's purely biological just tell your spouse you need to go screw someone else, period... Then go do it.... No one owns you, yes it might not go well with your spouse, but at least u aren't betraying them then  


Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I have never let a biological urge override anything in my life ever. Some guy cuts me off, he probably deserves to die according to my biological urges, but I let him live, this time. That Porsche arias the street? My biological urges tell me to hop in it and drive for days. I haven't, yet. Hell, biological urges really make us want to have sex with 16-18 year olds right? I mean, biologically speaking, that is what animals do. Go after the youngest that can reproduce and claim her as your own and do that to as many as possible.

Sorry, we are cognitive beings. We use inductive and deductive reasoning. We don't kick own own buttholes to clean them. Whenever anyone is cheating, they are making a cognitive choice that this is more important, at this time, than any repercussions that may come from this. Wrong choices are made often, I get that. But we are way beyond biological urges as a reason to stick your **** in someone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

TDSC60 said:


> Cheater are one thing and one thing only - totally selfish.
> 
> Thoughts of how their actions will affect other never enter their mind.
> 
> The focus is entirely on what they want.


I must agree. I think people who aren't cheaters overthink the actions of their spouses. The bottom line is if the cheater doesn't care about their own marriage, why would they care about someone else's?


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Zanne said:


> Nope, the possibility of reconciliation was nil; same for my marriage


How do you know that ? Because he told you


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> I disagree. Most cheatersare dishonest,and selfish. Their actions demo strate this.
> They may have areas of warmth( Hitler was fond of his dogsand young Arayan kids).
> But,to lie so much and to not even consider the effects on others of this cruel,abusive behavior speaks volumes about the cheater's traits,IMO.


This is typical of the muddle-headed thinking of a lot of the BS posters here on TAM. They will go to any length to demonize the WS or the AP. Completely ignoring all evidence to the contrary. 
WS's will be equated to serial killers, child molesters, murderers, alcoholics/drug abusers and Dictators. Obviously, cheaters are the worst people in the world, right?
Whereas, all evidence is, that the vast majority of cheaters are ....one and done... and also that the vast majority of cheaters very much regret their choice to cheat, and wish that they had done something different.
Don't take my word for it, look it up for yourself. Besides TAM, there are several good websites that will give you the necessary info. Sometimes I think that we need a reality check.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I am relying, mainly, on the descriptions I see on these websites and my observations re cheaters I know. How can you possibly think that cheaters are normal, when the whole cheating deal, with the exception of an isolated one night stand, requires such a large volume of lying or such an extended period of time?
Are you telling me that someone who repeatedly lies about something that puts their spouse's physical and mental health at risk has a conscience?
How do you explain the willingness to expose the spouse to deadly disease? How do you explain the willingness to squander family assets, much needed in many cases.
I think you need to do a little reading and research to clear your clouded thoughts. You sound as if you have done no reading on this at all.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

OP, you have a lot of anger


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> I am relying, mainly, on the descriptions I see on these websites and my observations re cheaters I know. How can you possibly think that cheaters are normal, when the whole cheating deal, with the exception of an isolated one night stand, requires such a large volume of lying or such an extended period of time?
> Are you telling me that someone who repeatedly lies about something that puts their spouse's physical and mental health at risk has a conscience?
> How do you explain the willingness to expose the spouse to deadly disease? How do you explain the willingness to squander family assets, much needed in many cases.
> I think you need to do a little reading and research to clear your clouded thoughts. You sound as if you have done no reading on this at all.


Well, Maxo, you would do well to loose the chip on your shoulder and stop attacking posters who are trying to help .
You might think that your WS is the worst person , ever. But , I think you will find that there are lots Worse WS's than yours. You would also do well to face reality, instead of living in your own hate-filled world.
If you want me to leave, I will. But if you are only going to attack, I think your stay here on TAM will be pretty short.
AS I clearly said in my last paragraph, you need to look stuff up for yourself. But you NEED to look at all sides of the issue, and not parrot a narrow mindset. Good luck with that.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I had you on ignore, but took you off, to try to help. But if all you are going to do is argue, instead of discus, what's the point?


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> Whereas, *all evidence is*, that the vast majority of cheaters are ....one and done... and also that the vast majority of cheaters very much regret their choice to cheat, and wish that they had done something different.


Seriously... 

Truthful _"Evidence or Statistics"_ on infidelity? The only fact regarding Cheaters... they are liars by very definition. Personally, I think Big-Foot is more credible than cheater evidence.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but let me try again. Do cheaters have a conscience? Yes, of course they do. Do they listen to it? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Do cheaters lie? Yes, of course they do.......but so does everybody else. If anyone says that they have never told a lie..... they are telling one right then. We ALL have lied at some point in time. Posters should...first and foremost.....stop thinking in absolutes, with regards to infidelity. Each affair is different from every other affair. Threads that describe all of the things that cheaters ALWAYS say or do, are for morons. There are zero hard and fast rules governing infidelity, just like there are no two marriages, alike.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I had you on ignore, but took you off, to try to help. But if all you are going to do is argue, instead of discus, what's the point?[/QUOTe
> 
> Please do not put me on ignore. And, do not throw me in the briar patch.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Maxo, you would do well to loose the chip on your shoulder and stop attacking posters who are trying to help .
> You might think that your WS is the worst person , ever. But , I think you will find that there are lots Worse WS's than yours. You would also do well to face reality, instead of living in your own hate-filled world.
> If you want me to leave, I will. But if you are only going to attack, I think your stay here on TAM will be pretty short.
> AS I clearly said in my last paragraph, you need to look stuff up for yourself. But you NEED to look at all sides of the issue, and not parrot a narrow mindset. Good luck with that.


Will take it under advisement and give the advice the weight it is due. Thanks.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, I tried.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> OP NEEDS to believe in what he is saying. It provides him emotional comfort and therefore any attempt to persuade him otherwise causes him distress. Since I have never been betrayed, I cannot understand what he is feeling or thinking, just that I acknowledge where he is coming from.


Thank you. Nothing wrong with a little emotional comfort. I think the same re your position on cheaters and the comfort it provides you. Am I right?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

No. Nothing wrong at all. Your pain is immense.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> No. Nothing wrong at all. Your pain is immense.
> 
> I agree with @Rookie4 in that there is a whole range of cheater types. Some have "defective" personalities, others are just normal people. Some could care less what pain they caused, others are very remorseful, guilt and shame ridden and would do anything to repair the marriage from the damage they caused. IMO very few were considering the consequences (or cared) at the time, whether it was a multi-year affair or ONS.
> 
> ...


Few of us do. But you see my point. To make hard and fast "rules" about infidelity , is foolish. My ex wife's affair was totally different from EI's affair (as an example) or some of the other situations here on TAM. My ex could have been the poster child for a remorseful WS. But it didn't work out for us. I would like a dime for every time I received a post or PM saying how lucky I was, that my WS was so remorseful.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> No. Nothing wrong at all. Your pain is immense.
> 
> I agree with @Rookie4 in that there is a whole range of cheater types. Some have "defective" personalities, others are just normal people. Some could care less what pain they caused, others are very remorseful, guilt and shame ridden and would do anything to repair the marriage from the damage they caused. IMO very few were considering the consequences (or cared) at the time, whether it was a multi-year affair or ONS.
> 
> ...


And,your need to pigeonhole yourself into some nobler category of cheater is pretty evident,as well. But,you did it,right? But,you are the good kind of cheater,right?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

RWB said:


> Seriously...
> 
> Truthful _"Evidence or Statistics"_ on infidelity? The only fact regarding Cheaters... they are liars by very definition. Personally, I think Big-Foot is more credible than cheater evidence.


Yeah,but,but,but ...it's " all the evidence" ,you know. Haven' t you read the " all the evidence" studies?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but let me try again. Do cheaters have a conscience? Yes, of course they do. Do they listen to it? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. Do cheaters lie? Yes, of course they do.......but so does everybody else. If anyone says that they have never told a lie..... they are telling one right then. We ALL have lied at some point in time. Posters should...first and foremost.....stop thinking in absolutes, with regards to infidelity. Each affair is different from every other affair. Threads that describe all of the things that cheaters ALWAYS say or do, are for morons. There are zero hard and fast rules governing infidelity, just like there are no two marriages, alike.


I totally disagree. Cheaters have lots and lots of things in common.
They lie, they are disloyal, the cheat, they make excuses for why they are still a decent human in spite of their deeds, and gaslight and blame shift their spouse. There's constant commonalities--- hence the reason it's so easy to spot a cheater.
ILYBINILWY. One of the many common phrases which cheaters use, for wxample.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Evinrude58 said:


> I totally disagree. Cheaters have lots and lots of things in common.
> They lie, they are disloyal, the cheat, they make excuses for why they are still a decent human in spite of their deeds, and gaslight and blame shift their spouse. There's constant commonalities--- hence the reason it's so easy to spot a cheater.
> ILYBINILWY. One of the many common phrases which cheaters use, for wxample.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lessee, they lie? So does everybody else. There is nobody who hasn't ever lied.
They are disloyal, they make excuses (like a lot of us during tax time) They try to evade blame? That would include 95 of the population. So...in other words...they are like pretty much everybody else. 
And you can easily pick out a cheater...can you? I bet you can't. My question is....where are all of these PERFECT BS's.? Who never do anything wrong.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Lessee, they lie? So does everybody else. There is nobody who hasn't ever lied.
> They are disloyal, they make excuses (like a lot of us during tax time) They try to evade blame? That would include 95 of the population. So...in other words...they are like pretty much everybody else.
> And you can easily pick out a cheater...can you? I bet you can't. My question his....where are all of these PERFECT BS's.? Who never do anything wrong.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

There is no defense.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

A word to the wise. Having empathy for the BS's, is a very good thing. Demeaning yourself is not. ONce you start apologizing to the BS's , for your affair, you will never be allowed to stop. For some BS's, a WS can never abase themselves enough, or be insulted enough or demonized enough. So, have empathy, and a willingness to discus issues, but insist on your right to courtesy and fair treatment.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> This is typical of the muddle-headed thinking of a lot of the BS posters here on TAM. They will go to any length to demonize the WS or the AP. Completely ignoring all evidence to the contrary.
> WS's will be equated to serial killers, child molesters, murderers, alcoholics/drug abusers and Dictators. Obviously, cheaters are the worst people in the world, right?
> Whereas, all evidence is, that the vast majority of cheaters are ....one and done... and also that the vast majority of cheaters very much regret their choice to cheat, and wish that they had done something different.
> Don't take my word for it, look it up for yourself. Besides TAM, there are several good websites that will give you the necessary info. Sometimes I think that we need a reality check.


This is a marriage website. So some vitriol against cheaters who have participated in anti-marriage behaviour is expected. 

Secondly, the vast majority of cheaters are not one and done. If they were, they wouldn't get caught. And if they weren't caught, they and their spouses would not be here. The fact of the matter is, once someone realizes how easy it is to cheat, and how exciting it is, they typically do it again. 

Thirdly, while you're right that cheating is not akin to murder, it is actually akin to assault on an emotional and physical level. Emotional is obvious, but many people forget that once you have sex with someone else and don't tell your spouse (but still have sex with them), you are risking your spouses health and life. Without them agreeing to it. 

TL;DR; BS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Is it possible for the WS to self reflect and find the reason they cheated and stop the cycle?


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## higgsb (Apr 4, 2016)

> To make hard and fast "rules" about infidelity , is foolish. My ex wife's affair was totally different from EI's affair (as an example) or some of the other situations here on TAM.


The hard and fast rules are called the stages of an affair so infidelity follows an established pattern. But I agree that WS are not necessarily the worst people in the world except toward their spouse. The way many WS treat their husband or wife when they are still in "the fog" sounds more like torture than abuse. I just thank God I found 2 years after my wife's affair ended because if I found out when she was right in the addiction stage of her affair, I just know what I would have done.

So yes WS are not the worst but they deserve whatever they get from the BS. I'm forever blazing my wife! This intense anger comes out of nowhere and I punish her. Last week, just out of nowhere, I emailed my school superintendent the graphic texts I discovered to explain why I was leaving: I told him I just can't live with this cheating slvt and had to leave. He could care less why and the fact is, I did it to humiliate my wife. 

Does she deserve that treatment because as a cheater she is somehow part of a degraded class of person? No. She deserves it because she screwed me over and pissed me off and now she had better just get used to it.

In all honesty, if I were her, I would definitely divorce me. I'll be punishing her until the day she dies with this. Wait until my daughters are old enough to understand!


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## higgsb (Apr 4, 2016)

> So you decided to Go rather than Stay?


ohh yeah.
I'm definitely going!

It's just getting easier and easier. New teachers can come in on a tourist visa, they'll change it over to a work permit. That's so much easier than getting the work permit pre-departure. I mean its just too easy to go.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

americansteve said:


> The hard and fast rules are called the stages of an affair so infidelity follows an established pattern. But I agree that WS are not necessarily the worst people in the world except toward their spouse. The way many WS treat their husband or wife when they are still in "the fog" sounds more like torture than abuse. I just thank God I found 2 years after my wife's affair ended because if I found out when she was right in the addiction stage of her affair, I just know what I would have done.
> 
> So yes WS are not the worst but they deserve whatever they get from the BS. I'm forever blazing my wife! This intense anger comes out of nowhere and I punish her. Last week, just out of nowhere, I emailed my school superintendent the graphic texts I discovered to explain why I was leaving: I told him I just can't live with this cheating slvt and had to leave. He could care less why and the fact is, I did it to humiliate my wife.
> 
> ...


Lessee, dwelling on the affair and the cheater and "punishing them for the rest of their lives, then ruining your kids lives as well. Sounds like a real intelligent way to live to me. You do realize, of course, the if you do this, you will be jumping through hoops that she has made, right? So even if you hate her forever, she will always have power over you.......think about it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

marduk said:


> This is a marriage website. So some vitriol against cheaters who have participated in anti-marriage behaviour is expected.
> 
> Secondly, the vast majority of cheaters are not one and done. If they were, they wouldn't get caught. And if they weren't caught, they and their spouses would not be here. The fact of the matter is, once someone realizes how easy it is to cheat, and how exciting it is, they typically do it again.
> 
> ...


I agree. this is a marriage website, and an infidelity forum, so a certain amout of anger is to be expected. Unfortunately what we have now isn't that, it is far worse. so much so, that few WS will stay here and face the mob of insults, for very long. Without the participation of WS it becomes just a BS pity party.
I am right about "one and done" because I was speaking of affairs , not individual sex acts. As I said, look it up yourself. Very few people who have affairs, repeat them.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

As far as the rest of it goes. We have 900 beskillion posts telling all of the horrible things WS have done. We don't need another.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree. this is a marriage website, and an infidelity forum, so a certain amout of anger is to be expected. Unfortunately what we have now isn't that, it is far worse. so much so, that few WS will stay here and face the mob of insults, for very long. Without the participation of WS it becomes just a BS pity party.
> I am right about "one and done" because I was speaking of affairs , not individual sex acts. As I said, look it up yourself. Very few people who have affairs, repeat them.


I did look it up and I don't agree. 

How do you define 'one affair?' Is it one partner?

For example, many affairs are long drawn out things with sex happening perhaps monthly, even yearly. Is that one affair?

Another example are serial adulterers. I know one. She literally cannot go more than a couple months without a strange new man in her life. 

But they're all ons. What is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> As far as the rest of it goes. We have 900 beskillion posts telling all of the horrible things WS have done. We don't need another.


Actually we do. 

If you've been a BS, frequently you have no-one to go to. I sure didn't feel like I had more than 1-2 people to go to in real life.

Here, I had dozens to talk to. And it was therapeutic getting it out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> Lessee, dwelling on the affair and the cheater and "punishing them for the rest of their lives, then ruining your kids lives as well. Sounds like a real intelligent way to live to me. You do realize, of course, the if you do this, you will be jumping through hoops that she has made, right? So even if you hate her forever, she will always have power over you.......think about it.


I think that sounds like rug sweeping and "get over it."

Cheating is a traumatic event for the betrayed. And that's not how you deal with emotional trauma.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

marduk said:


> Actually we do.
> 
> If you've been a BS, frequently you have no-one to go to. I sure didn't feel like I had more than 1-2 people to go to in real life.
> 
> Here, I had dozens to talk to. And it was therapeutic getting it out.


At the same time, the WS may need a place to go for advice. Not many WS either have real life go to people whom they can tell about the cheating. The WS should be allowed to come here at not get attacked by the BS group. Believe it or not, helping the WS can indirectly help their affected BS. 

I don't care how many similar threads have been done in the past. This site is not a library or history record. It is the real time and personalize advice that helps the most for any OP. 

TAM is a great site.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Zanne said:


> I'm sorry, Maxo, but I just don't believe in a cheater classification, as if a person who has cheated is set apart from the rest of society. I'm not a fan of labels, i.e., "cheater," "abuser," "drunk." I like to focus on _actions_. We have control of our actions. Destructive actions are the result of faulty thinking, however, we have the ability to _change_ the way we think. It is up to the individual how they manage rehabilitation, but the possibility is there.
> 
> As an example, my husband was abusive throughout our marriage. To my knowledge, he is no longer abusive to the people in his life. Shall we go on referring to him as an abuser? You know, once an abuser, always an abuser?


I would. In the past tense. 

As in "he was an abuser but I'm not sure if he is abusive now."

Or "she was a cheater but I'm not sure if she's cheating now."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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