# Discovered old MSN logs of my wife



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

I just discovered old MSN logs in an old CD from 10 years ago!!! My wife and I first met at college and dated for about 2 years and right around we graduated from college she dumped me and moved to US to get her MBA. I never understood clearly why she dumped me and after all those years I found these MSN logs with one guy she met before we started dating back in college. 
Right after she dumped me, the guy confesses her his love and they start dating, and actually the guy lives in US and she moves to his apartment while studying her MBA. For some reason that I am not aware of (I suspect from the logs his ex returns or something like that), the guy dumps her after 3-4 months of dating. Almost after one year after that, she moved back home and somehow we met again and started dating again. In the meantime I also had a horrible relationship and recently was broken up, so I got back to her, no questions asked. We dated over a year again and finally got married 6 years ago. We have been happily married since, we have a son and she is pregnant for the second time. 
She knows about my relationships when we were separated because I told her!! But she always told me she didn't have anybody in her life while we were separated, and she always loved me, and I was the only one. But, she dumped me because she was scared that I was going to dump her first (wth!!) However, msn logs are clear that she tells the guy how much she loves him at that time. 
(I also went through her old emails, facebook chat logs, pretty much everything she left behind. There are many other details about her and this guy being together for while).
Anyways, since I read those msn logs and old emails, I became very emotional and I am worried about our marriage. I blame myself, I cant't concentrate on my job, and I can't talk to her about it, I can't talk to anyone about it....

Can someone please tell me; does this feeling ever go away? I want to go back to normal again, it hurts so much...


----------



## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

So this happened when you guys weren't together?
I don't get what you're upset about really...that she didn't tell you about the relationship?
Has she made any move to contact him again?
Personally id just let it go if you answer no to that question.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You would have to prove she had some kind of contact with him before she broke up with you. It's possible she legitimately broke up in order to move back to the U.S. and then shortly afterwards he contacted her and they hooked up again. It happens man. 

Its hard to say but I think there is a good chance that she was not sure she could make a commitment to you knowing that she had to move back to the U.S. to finish her schooling. She didn't want to string you along and get your hopes up that the two of you could have a long distance relationship. Actually, I think she was being rather considerate and adult by doing that for you. 

Right now you just don't have enough facts and info to accuse her of running off to the U.S. to be with this guy. 

What country do you live in?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You are worried that you are plan B, right?


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

It is obvious that she dumped me because of him, that hurts a lot. I don't know if she ever contacted him again. I don't think she ever will, because she hates the guy since he dumped her so bad. I am probably also upset because she never told me about it and actually she lied to me about not having any relationship at all. 
I also don't understand why I am so obsessed with this and I really want this to end. But I can't let it go. I wanna talk to her about it!!! But I know it shouldn't...


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> You are worried that you are plan B, right?


Yeah, I guess...


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Just the lying is bad enough. Clearly she is going to say to you that she didn't think you'd take her back or can handle it. It's all bull****. Even if she is 100% faithful fight now, that is pretty ****ed up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> You would have to prove she had some kind of contact with him before she broke up with you. It's possible she legitimately broke up in order to move back to the U.S. and then shortly afterwards he contacted her and they hooked up again. It happens man.
> 
> Its hard to say but I think there is a good chance that she was not sure she could make a commitment to you knowing that she had to move back to the U.S. to finish her schooling. She didn't want to string you along and get your hopes up that the two of you could have a long distance relationship. Actually, I think she was being rather considerate and adult by doing that for you.
> 
> ...


O yeah, msn logs have it all, they talk more then we talk, before we broke up, but nothing serious. The guy is real a ****, he is flirting with her all the time. We live in Greece now.


----------



## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

I get you'd be upset that she lied..but has she given you any indication that she's strayed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

canshoot said:


> O yeah, msn logs have it all, they talk more then we talk, before we broke up,* but nothing serious*. The guy is real a ****, he is flirting with her all the time. We live in Greece now.


Okay say you confront your wife and ask her if she had been calling him long distance at that time the two of you were dating, and if the reason she broke up with you was because this guy talked her into coming back there and living with him while she finished her MBA... 

First of all, were the two of you engaged or otherwise in a committed relationship when she dumped you? 

Second, say she admits to you that , yes, she dumped you so she could go back to the U.S. and let this guy support her while she was going to graduate school. If you had known the truth back then, would it have changed your mind to start dating her again when the two of you reunited? Would you have consented to marry her knowing she did this? 

You know it could be possible that the reason she got back together with him was completely logistical. She needed someone to give her free rent while she went to school and she had no intention of staying with him after she got her MBA. . If that is the case, in my book, she prostituted herself...and that is as bad as cheating on you. This may not be the case...but I have heard of some women doing this. 

But again, right now you have no hard proof that this guy was the reason she dumped you. Right now all you have is coincidental evidence that something may have been going on between them. 

Regardless, she treated you shabbily and I do think she owes you some answers.


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

citygirl4344 said:


> I get you'd be upset that she lied..but has she given you any indication that she's strayed?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We are happily married, other than routine problems there is nothing wrong about our relationship. But why did she lie about it and never told me anything? I didn't want to know this, but now I can't forget and move on...


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

canshoot said:


> We are happily married, other than routine problems there is nothing wrong about our relationship. But why did she lie about it and never told me anything? I didn't want to know this, but now I can't forget and move on...


It's possible that she moved to the states and this guy was waiting to cast his net. He took advantage of her being freshly broken up with you and vulnerable. She did what a lot of young stupid women do...she fell for his bullshizz...

But regardless, it would have been nice, after the two of you got back together, if she would have told you that she hooked back up with him again. She should have been forthright and not hide anything.


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Okay say you confront your wife and ask her if she had been calling him long distance at that time the two of you were dating, and if the reason she broke up with you was because this guy talked her into coming back there and living with him while she finished her MBA...
> 
> First of all, were the two of you engaged or otherwise in a committed relationship when she dumped you?
> 
> ...


Her mum happens to now all about this, do you think it is a good idea that I consult with her first? She is really very reasonable person.
Who do I talk to??? I can't obviously talk to her friends,right? There are couple girls I know they were around at that time.


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

For the most part, women don't dump a guy unless they have another one all lined up. This makes the guy they dumped their backup plan if the new guy doesn't work out. Congratulations, you are plan B. The truth is that lots of men are the backup plan that the wife settled for when the handsome, exciting bad boy couldn't pay the rent anymore. This is mostly a simple case of nature but it feels kinda sh!tty when you understand it. The thing is, you guys seem to be making your marriage work pretty well. I would recommend you just reveal what you know & how you found it and are hurt that she chose to lie about it back then. Keeping it a secret all these years sucks too but the real lie was before you got married and she just kept quiet ever since. You guys can move past this if you both face it head on and try to resolve it.


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> For the most part, women don't dump a guy unless they have another one all lined up. This makes the guy they dumped their backup plan if the new guy doesn't work out. Congratulations, you are plan B. The truth is that lots of men are the backup plan that the wife settled for when the handsome, exciting bad boy couldn't pay the rent anymore. This is mostly a simple case of nature but it feels kinda sh!tty when you understand it. The thing is, you guys seem to be making your marriage work pretty well. I would recommend you just reveal what you know & how you found it and are hurt that she chose to lie about it back then. Keeping it a secret all these years sucks too but the real lie was before you got married and she just kept quiet ever since. You guys can move past this if you both face it head on and try to resolve it.


The thing is, that I am afraid she will be upset that I brought this up after so many years and I went through her emails and chat logs. I am concerned about her, since she is pregnant and all. But, at the same time I'm not doing alright...
Is there any other option? Who else can I talk to?


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

canshoot said:


> The thing is, that I am afraid she will be upset that I brought this up after so many years and I went through her emails and chat logs. I am concerned about her, since she is pregnant and all. But, at the same time I'm not doing alright...
> Is there any other option? Who else can I talk to?


What were you doing when you found these e-mails? Were you actively looking or did you stumble upon them? If it was pure happenstance that you fouind them then you have nothing to feel bad about. It would be the same as rummaging through her dresser looking for a copy of the mortgage, and finding a 13" black dildo hidden under her socks. 

No one keeps e-mails around for as long as she has unless they meant something to her. 

You are in a marriage, and there is no such thing as privacy in marriage. If she really cared how you would react about finding these, then she should have deleted them years ago when the two of you married. Instead, she foolishly kept the e-mails, all the while hiding the facts of what she was doing for those years you were separated. Pretty sh!tty. 

Yes, at the time she got back together with you, you may very well have been her Plan B, but that does not mean that this is how she feels about you now. She may look at you now as the greatest thing that ever happened to her, and that she is damn lucky she got back together with you. She may have very well forgotten about those e-mails. 

At this point you just don't know. Either keep this to yourself and do more sleuthing to find out what happened, or just sit her down and lay it all out there.


----------



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Honestly Cahoot your reading too much into this.

1. yes she dumped you and another guy...who in turn dumped her...so karma hit be back
2. she lied there was no one else, mostly likely because it was a bad dump, and she feels guilt about it
3. it was over before you two met up again 
4. you found love again together, got married

now you can do one of two things you could bring it up to her in passing by saying, "you'll never guess what i found in cleaning out some of computer CDs, some old emails between you and this guy....then you can have the conversation about telling me there was no one but to what end....
or say nothing and move on with your happy life....

she has given you no signs she is cheating or seeking him out....is she?


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

Xenote said:


> Honestly Cahoot your reading too much into this.
> 
> 1. yes she dumped you and another guy...who in turn dumped her...so karma hit be back
> 2. she lied there was no one else, mostly likely because it was a bad dump, and she feels guilt about it
> ...


no she has not.


----------



## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

citygirl4344 said:


> So this happened when you guys weren't together?
> I don't get what you're upset about really...that she didn't tell you about the relationship?
> Has she made any move to contact him again?
> Personally id just let it go if you answer no to that question.


According to the time-line, she seems to have broke up with the OP because she met the USA guy. Then the Mr. USA later dumps her. 

Therefore, OP feels like she chose him after she couldn't have who she really wanted.


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

Xenote said:


> Honestly Cahoot your reading too much into this.
> 
> 1. yes she dumped you and another guy...who in turn dumped her...so karma hit be back
> 2. she lied there was no one else, mostly likely because it was a bad dump, and she feels guilt about it
> ...


I think it might be a good idea to take out that CD and leave it somewhere she can find. Maybe then she might want to talk about it, you think so?


----------



## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

canshoot said:


> It is obvious that she dumped me because of him, that hurts a lot. I don't know if she ever contacted him again. I don't think she ever will, because she hates the guy since he dumped her so bad. I am probably also upset because she never told me about it and actually she lied to me about not having any relationship at all.
> I also don't understand why I am so obsessed with this and I really want this to end. But I can't let it go. I wanna talk to her about it!!! But I know it shouldn't...


I'm not sure if it is right or not, but I can certainly understand why you are obsessed with this because I discovered that I was my wife's 2nd choice after we married. She would never admit that, but it's pretty apparent.


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

You do have options.


the best is to talk to her directly.

After you talk to her, if she does not answer your questions, you can talk to your MIL.

But first talk to your wife about this.

Be a man and talk to her today.


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Canshoot,

You are rightly upset because your W entered into the marriage dishonestly. It was on you W to tell you the truth, you have every right to divorce her now. 

Ask her for a timeline of her affair and if it was the cause of your breakup. 

Pay the OM a visit.

Tamat


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

canshoot said:


> The thing is, that I am afraid she will be upset that I brought this up after so many years and I went through her emails and chat logs. I am concerned about her, since she is pregnant and all. But, at the same time I'm not doing alright...
> Is there any other option? Who else can I talk to?


Another option? You mean the one where a miracle happens and your memory is cleared? Not likely.

If you want to clear the air about this you better get the courage to bring it up and talk to her about it.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It's possible the other fellow was a plan b, whilst you are plan A.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Investigate all you can, then ask her. Your gut will tell you.

If you already have all the proof you need.... it's decision time for you.

Either way... it will be a rough ride.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

canshoot said:


> I think it might be a good idea to take out that CD and leave it somewhere she can find. Maybe then she might want to talk about it, you think so?


be sure to make a copy of the CD first


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its perfectly normal and OK to break up with someone you are dating for any reason. I expect that reason is often another person, but its generally more polite not to say it:

"John, I'm sorry, but I don't think we can date any more, I just need some space". Is fine, neutral. and probably not true.

"John, I found a guy who is more attractive than you so bye", is true, but more hurtful than it needs to be.


This is different from leaving a marriage. Lots of people break up and date other people. Often they have met someone they like more. Also often they discover after a while that they preferred the original person anyway.


After dating for a while, my (future) wife broke up with me. She started dating another guy. I started dating another woman. Eventually she broke up with that guy, and independently I broke up with the other woman, so I started dating my (future) wife again. No harm no foul. Dating is all about learning about people. 



I don't see anything unusual to stress over here.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

canshoot said:


> Her mum happens to now all about this, do you think it is a good idea that I consult with her first? She is really very reasonable person.
> Who do I talk to??? I can't obviously talk to her friends,right? There are couple girls I know they were around at that time.


No, don't talk to anyone in her family or any of her friends about this. If you have a close male friend who is absolutely 100% trustworthy you could talk to him, but there is a high probability he would talk to his own wife/gf about it.

I would recommend you talk to a marriage counselor about this.

If I understand your posts correctly, you told her about your interim relationship while she was in the USA, and she actively and intentionally lied to you by saying she did not see anybody during this time period. Correct?

This is a very damaging lie she told. I expect she'll have all kinds of rationalizations about it, but in the end she chose to protect herself and manipulated you. She figured on some level that you would be unhappy about her being with this guy and that you might not stay in a relationship with her. That's really bad stuff. Especially because she in some way cheated on you, even if just minimally, having communications with this guy while you were still dating.

I think you should talk to a good experienced marriage counselor about this. First alone, I think, though together with your wife might not be bad. But if it were me I'd want to get the feel of the MC before bringing in my wife. 

Here's the thing, you have the right to your emotional response. You have the right to feel about this the way you do. Quite a few people are going to call you weak, insecure, old fashioned, stupid, or some other judgmental term for being upset. You can be challenged on facts, but your emotions are yours. Many men would react the way you have, so you're not some insane freak. You have the right to interpret this the way you have.

Of course it brings up all kinds of insecurities and questions when you discover what is, to you, a significant intentional lie. That is what I would say is the key thing to be discussed in MC initially. You have discovered this significant intentional lie. Regardless of her reasons at the time, today this is causing you great distress. You have the right to feel that way. This is now a crisis of the relationship, of the marriage, and it is of her doing. You can't fix this by yourself. You can't make this go away by sweeping it under the rug.

She needs to explain herself, and she needs to come to the realization that this was a lie, an intentional deception, which took from you your right to make a fully informed decision about continuing (or re-establishing) a relationship with her. It was a manipulation of you. And, she to some extent cheated on you which has created all those issues in the marriage.

While she may be a fully invested and loyal wife since day 1 of the marriage, that does not erase the damage of what you've discovered. She needs to work with you to overcome this. I think it will require the guidance of a good therapist, one who is not going to tell you to just suck it up and get over it.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> No one keeps e-mails around for as long as she has unless they meant something to her.


Well I would be more general and say there would be some reason for keeping them. I know a woman who keeps all her old texts and emails from boyfriends going back probably 8 or 10 years. She is not interested in ever getting back with them. It is more of an unhealthy psychological thing going on with her.

Archiving chats and emails onto an external drive of some sort is definitely a bit unusual.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

canshoot said:


> I think it might be a good idea to take out that CD and leave it somewhere she can find. Maybe then she might want to talk about it, you think so?


No, far too passive a move.

I think you should read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Smith. It is a pretty quick read and it is a lot more than what the title suggests. Read it or at least skim it before deciding on your approach to your wife.

I also think you may benefit from the often recommended book "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Dr. Glover.

Anyhow, if you're going to confront her, do it directly. You can do it with humor or with a light mood. Or you can do it in an angry hurt way. I think the best way is the direct way without anger or accusations. Just be direct and honest, you found this and you are distressed by the fact she lied to you and the overall circumstances.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Marriage vows are far more than "I shall not screw other people". She has committed an infidelity to her vows by maintaining this lie, in addition to some level of emotional infidelity while you were dating when she left you for this other man. No this is not like she's been screwing the entire college football team for the duration of your marriage. Yet it is a significant disloyalty to you twice involving this other man. It needs to be processed as the disloyalty that it was. She needs to apologize, she needs to show remorse, and you need to establish new ground rules regarding open honesty.

I believe you two can come to a good resolution as long as you don't try to silently suppress this.


----------



## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Oh dear gawd. Just tell her you stumbled upon it and you read it. Then tell her that it does not jibe with what she told you and you'd like her to clarify. 

Don't be all confrontational. Tell her that it matters so you need to understand. If you can't have a conversation about honesty in a marriage then it's a problem. If you can't start the conversation honestly and want to rely on her finding the CD and then hoping that it sparks a conversation, then YOU have a problem. 

Here is how you do it: hey, I stumbled on an old cd and started reading. Lo and behold, it was your chats to a guy that you lived with. Man, you loved that guy. Here's the thing, you told me that you did not date anyone. We weren't married, so it was not cheating, but why deny it?


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Oh, for God's Sake, get over this crap.

You don't really have a problem..........you are creating one.

You were both young then. Young people go back and forth. They date other people..........ahem, they should date other people. How else are they going to know enough to pick a good "lifelong" partner.

After playing the field "modestly" she picked your insecure butt! When she first broke it off with you, you were not engaged, you were steady dating........only.

In the end, she did pick you.....she did want babies with you. That is one hell of a commitment on her part.

Don't mess up a good thing. You got her....the other chump did not. No women marries Plan B, unless they are un-date-able. She was not, she was attractive and desirable. That is why you married her and why you are unreasonably jealous.

Not every lover must be declared.

Cut off your rooster tail. It is very unbecoming.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Don't let this destroy what seems to be a good marriage. You were not together, so what is the problem. People do stupid things when they are younger. She didn't tell you because maybe she didn't want to hurt you or hurt herself talking about it.

Let it go


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

I do get why this irritates you.

In a sense, she deceived you and manipulated the situation to get the M she had finally decided she wanted with you.

Why didn't she disclose?

Because you might have been offended and angered over the deception when she dumped you (yes, IMO, by pretending the dumping was for other reasons when it was really about this a**hat OM that counts as deception in my book) and especially by the subsequent lies about what happened after you two reconnected....

And your anger and feeling of being insulted might have gotten in the way of her getting what she now wanted very badly....a M to you.

Completely dishonest and selfish in my book.

Now....if your M has been good and she has been faithful, you would be a fool to end or wreck your M over this now....in fact, I would not even approach her with anger over your discovery.

But, I WOULD approach her about it.....calmly explain that you stumbled upon her little secret and know the truth now.....and IN THE FUTURE, there can be no further selfish, unilateral choices made without your awareness.

She OWED you the truth about what happened when she asked for you to commit to her.....she let her fear that she might not get what she desired if she was honest with you lead her into lying and manipulating the situation to ensure she did.

It matters not that you loved her and would most likely have chosen to M her anyway.

The real danger here is in the future.....she has obviously decided that keeping you in the dark about important facts and making unilateral decisions that effect both your lives is ACCEPTABLE to gain a goal she wants.

There are literally countless situations that can arise in your future that could wreck your M and family if she decides to follow this precedent again....

Unilateral decisions about finances.....unilateral decisions about child issues.....becoming attracted to or involved with another man....etc, etc.

You need to calmly but firmly let her know that you are aware of what she did.....and NOTHING like this can happen ever again if she expects you to stay in the M.

My .02


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Omg to people who said it happened a long time ago. She is passively STILL lying about it. Secrets and lies. Who know what else she has lied about. 

Given you are not acting irrationally out of emotion right now, you have the opportunity to play this appropriately. First and foremost, you want the women you love to be honest with you. Ask her again if there was anyone else during the break. Make it clear it has bothered you that you felt like she has been lying to you, not that she dated someone else. Tell her she needs to be open and honest with you so you both can move on. If she comes clean, work with her to repair. Be understanding and loving. If she continues the masquerade, call her a ****ing ***** ass **** ***** and throw the cd at her and demand a paternity test on all the kids!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. Unfortunately I can't let it go, that is why I wrote here. I believe I will try a MC first, in the mean time try to keep calm. I really don't want to end our marriage.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


----------



## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Personal said:


> Considering the fact that there was a time when in the absence of cheap backup storage, it is not a surprise someone has old messages on a disc.
> 
> Likewise I also have things on discs buried in storage, full of old pre 2005 stuff (whether that stuff is still readable is another thing). One day I will go through them possibly, so in terms of keeping things like that it is unlikely to be nefarious.
> 
> ...



You conveniently glossed the fact that SHE. LIED. TO. HIM. She didn't act with integrity.

Their marriage was built on a lie. Chew on that for a sec.

She gave her heart to the OM, but then told OP there was no one else.

No, she didn't need to disclose everything about her past, but whatever she chose to disclose should have been the truth.

Telling the OP to grow up makes it seem like you would be okay with being lied to.


----------



## Legend (Jun 25, 2013)

A. You're upset because you're the number 2 pick for marriage.

B. You're upset because she has withheld truth (shocker).

Don't you think she would be married to the other guy if he hadn't dumped her?

Lack of honesty and communication in marriage seems to be an underlying theme for TAM posters.

She would be mortified if she knew you knew, since A and B would be true and she would look like an a$$.

Do yourself and your marriage a favor and tell her you know about their relationship. Just say you found out by accident.

She should not be mad at you for finding out the truth. A real marriage has total honesty written all over it.


----------



## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Sometimes we do some stupid things when we are younger and maybe this was her stupid thing.
You said it was a year after they broke up that you guys got back together so you being plan B is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Yes she probably should have told you but if she hasn't contacted him or there are issues in your marriage I don't see why you are set at creating an issue about it.
Everyone has a past.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I see the emotional dilemma in this, too. 

While lying to you about not being in a relationship while you were broken up was, IMO, a bad choice on her part, it was her choice. The consequence of that choice is, you may find out the truth and confront her over it. You may find yourself in the place you are now.

She dumped you (correct?) and had a relationship while you were broken up. This part of her life is none of your business and shaming her for this relationship, even by thought, is unfair. Two things may have happened. Either she dumped you FOR him (which I am still unclear on if it happened this way - can you clarify?) or she dumped you for other reasons,, then hooked up with this guy. EITHER way, she was broken up with you.

Stay with me here... 

If a woman is young, attractive, available, it is a foregone conclusion that she is having sex. Unless she is very religious and has an amazing sense of self (which VERY few men or women have after college) she is going to have sex.

When you wrote you had a breakup, my assumption was she had sex until you were together again. Never mind what she said to you. All of that is to protect herself from toxic shame and from you thinking badly of her. I'm not saying it's right, nor is it fair, it just IS. You are young and probably have little worldly experience. You are trusting. This is what humans do, we lie, especially when we are immature in life and love. Hopefully we learn to be honest and accept our flaws as we mature but unfortunately, many, many adults continue to lie throughout life. 

I also assumed that YOU had sex while you were broken up. If you didn't, then I am wrong and I apologize. But again, the combination of youth, attractiveness, and availability tells me you will be having lots of sex unless for religious or other personal reasons. 

Now, your original post had something in it that stood out. I realized it was the way in which you tell the story about your reuniting. The part where you get back together has this glossed-over "somehow we got back together" feel to it. NO. You did not somehow just float together after you'd been broken up. You CHOSE to take her back, after she dumped you. Even if she browbeat, begged, promised, etc., you CHOSE to get back into a relationship with her. The problem is that she withheld the truth when asked. That part was wrong of her, so you were unable to make a WELL INFORMED CHOICE. You made a choice with what you knew at the time. 

When someone dumps me, I am done with them. Finito. You chose differently. 

Lastly, I echo what other posters have asked about her current behavior. If she loves YOU and is loyal and not giving you any reason to doubt her, you must keep this in the forefront of your mind. 

None of us want to be guinea pigs in relationships. To me, the nature of relationships is testing and being tested until you find what you want. It's not fair, but in my experience, it just is. Your individual behavior has the greatest impact in how YOU are treated by OTHERS. 

Whatever you decide to do, OP, I simply hope you will really digest the whole picture before you choose.


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Personal said:


> With that kind of nonsensical thinking, it's no surprise that some men find themselves in sexless marriages.


I wasn't, but yeah, is stupid men who should be ok with habitual lying and then get mad about it. We deserve no sex!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sexual faithfulness is a big deal to a man. This is very primitive and goes back to being assured that your mate’s children are also yours. *Your ex-girlfriend had absolutely NO reason to be faithful to you.* However your wife presented a false narrative that was very appealing and made you feel special and in turn made her very special in your mind.



canshoot said:


> She knows about my relationships when we were separated because I told her!! But she always told me she didn't have anybody in her life while we were separated, and she always loved me, and I was the only one.


You’re grieving over the loss of that specialness. You may have married her even if she had told you the truth but maybe not. By telling you that she didn’t have sex with anyone during your breakup she's telling you that she couldn’t get over you. Why else wouldn’t she have sex?

If an ex-girlfriend told me that her marriage material stock would shoot way up and I would much more likely marry her. Your wife knew that.

You've gone from the only man for her (tested and proven during your breakup) to plan B. No wonder you're hurt. Plus she kept the CD.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

canshoot said:


> The thing is, that I am afraid she will be upset that I brought this up after so many years and I went through her emails and chat logs. I am concerned about her, since she is pregnant and all. But, at the same time I'm not doing alright...
> Is there any other option? Who else can I talk to?


There is only one Your Wife

55


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

canshoot said:


> I think it might be a good idea to take out that CD and leave it somewhere she can find. Maybe then she might want to talk about it, you think so?


This a significant part of "YOUR" problem

You need the courage to communicate directly with your wife

These covert actions are Nice Guy 101

55


----------



## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

OP, sit her down and calmly ask her again about this time period. Don't pvssy around. Give her lots of opportunities to be honest. If she just can't do it, your wife is of bad character and is a proven liar. She's shown you that once backed into a corner, she will save her own skin at your expense and don't ever let anyone tell you you are being insecure. Your wife has happily lived with these lies for years. What else isn't she telling you?

WARNING - She might admit some things, trickle truth over time to try and pacify you. Do not fall for this. And, if she specifically denies something, say "yes, X happened but I didn't do Y" she's lying. She did Y or she wouldn't have volunteered it. Remind yourself, she can quite happily sleep at night and look you in the eyes every day, knowing your marriage is built on lies. Being honest and living by her actions is not in her character. Never forget that.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Dude, you two split up. She has no obligation, morally, to tell you anything about it while you two where broken up. She probably thought you would react very poorly to it, and therefore lied to you. I would suggest getting over it, prove her wrong.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Why did she make the CD? Why would she keep it?


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I am not going to say anything else, I am going to let the original post do the talking...



canshoot said:


> *Right after* she dumped me, the guy confesses her his love and they start dating, and actually the guy lives in US and *she moves to his apartment* while studying her MBA.





canshoot said:


> *somehow* we met again and started dating again.





canshoot said:


> She *knows* about my relationships when we were separated because *I told her*!!





canshoot said:


> But *she always told me* she didn't have anybody in her life while we were separated, and she always loved me, and *I was the only one*.





canshoot said:


> But, she dumped me because she was scared that I was going to dump her first (wth!!) However, msn logs are clear that *she tells the guy how much she loves him at that time.*





canshoot said:


> (I also went through her old emails, facebook chat logs, pretty much everything she left behind. *There are many other details about her and this guy being together for while*).


Ok, I lied. Stop minimizing his pain. The entire premise of their relationship is a lie. Even if she is legit now and loves him more than life itself, she lied to him about something important and I'd be agonizing over it like he is.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Thank you for the clarification Hershel. Good job.


----------



## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

canshoot said:


> Can someone please tell me; does this feeling ever go away?


Not while you're still with the person who lied to you.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

citygirl4344 said:


> Sometimes we do some stupid things when we are younger and maybe this was her stupid thing.


So many good posts and points about this situation. I hope that citygirl's comment is what happened, that the lie was an uncharacteristic thing and just a one-off stupid thing she did due to immaturity.

But... I've lived the opposite story and agree with the following:



Dyokemm said:


> Now....if your M has been good and she has been faithful, you would be a fool to end or wreck your M over this now....in fact, I would not even approach her with anger over your discovery.
> 
> But, I WOULD approach her about it.....calmly explain that you stumbled upon her little secret and know the truth now.....and IN THE FUTURE, there can be no further selfish, unilateral choices made without your awareness.
> 
> ...


My stbxw engaged in various lies of omission when we were dating and engaged, which I had no way to detect. It was and still is her mindset that it is fine to use deceptions in order to get to the outcome she desires.

There were lies related to all kinds of things. There were lies about her past, and lies about what was happening in the present. Lies about significant medical treatments for our minor children, and lies about very large sums of money. Dyokemn's description above of "unilateral decisions" is spot on, with her mindset being she can make decisions without including me but which by every right should include me.

After learning initially of the lies about her past, discovering additional lies about her past was deeply damaging to trust. As has been said numerous times on this thread by one contingent, "everybody has a past". Well, yeah. But when lies about the past are uncovered it destroys trust. Not the past, but the _lies_ destroy the trust.

This is why the discussion has to include her now disclosing any other lies, omissions, or misrepresentations. And that is tough because she may not remember what she lied about or left out. Another part of the discussion is setting an absolute boundary of no further lies within the marriage going forward. I detected several relatively minor lies after having the first discussion with stbxw about the topic. Really inconsequential stuff, but it turns out those were clues her mindset had not in fact changed, and yes there were then further major lies and deceptions later on.

It could be OP's wife just didn't want to reveal the exact timeline of the first breakup, because (it sounds like) she started up a relationship with OM while still dating OP. History now shows OM is irrelevant because OP's marriage has been just fine. From that perspective her past has turned out to be a non-factor. The lie needs to be confronted and the boundary set. From my experience I would say his wife needs to understand she has potentially set the hair trigger by her lie, and she needs to work hard at being 100% truthful going forward. Any further deceptions or lies can snap that hair trigger.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

canshoot said:


> I never understood clearly why she dumped me .
> 
> 
> Right after she dumped me, the guy confesses her his love and they start dating, and actually the guy lives in US and she moves to his apartment while studying her MBA.
> ...


Ok my man, let me answer why she dumped you. She dumped you because she lost interest in you, possibly coupled with the fact that she was leaving, knew a long distance relationship seldom work, so why should she remain tied to some cat she really wasn't interested in. 
Since she got with the guy after she ditched you and he show romantic interest, he was a familiar old flame, and she could move into his apartment presumably rent free, she had made a clean break from you so dating someone else is in the cards and normal for anyone not committed. Remember Dawg, you did the same thing.
After she got back, you two met again and started dating, it was your own naivete to believe and desire she lived the life of a nun while working on her MBA. Granted she should have told you the truth when you ask, (or told you its none of your business) you go through her files looking for evidence. You had to suspect something or you wouldn't have play Sherlock Holmes. Now you know the truth and we both know you ain't going to do nothing about it. On the bright side, she rekindled her relationship and married you. Unless you've got evidence she's still contacting the other guy, you'd be an idiot to let what happen when ya'll were not together screw up your life.


----------



## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

I may have missed it but how did you find the CD? Were all messages from a time period included (i.e. was it all of her messages)? Or was it edited to just include communications with the OM? If you can get in trouble for finding the CD then why can't she get in trouble for making and keeping it?


----------



## MovingFrwrd (Dec 22, 2015)

Let’s look at it from another angle – maybe her seeing this guy while you two were split up helped her realize what she had in you and your relationship. I have no idea why she would have lied about it. I’ll admit that is a bit worrisome, and I can see it undermining the trust in the relationship.

It’s always painful to read that the person who is your wife had feelings for someone else, even if it happened before you two were back together. My kneejerk reaction is to let the past be past on this. Work on yourself, your self-esteem and your self-worth, realize you have value and you found each other again with the end result being she chose you. If you want to discuss it with her, I would really recommend a calm and forthright discussion, no punches pulled, no setting traps for her to fall into. Best case scenario is in front of an impartial marriage counselor who can help moderate the discussion.

This needn’t be the end of the relationship, or a major hurdle. Vlad's last sentence above is spot on. But if it does indeed keep you up at night, then it is worth discussing. 

Best of luck, sorry you’re here.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> O
> Regardless, she treated you shabbily and I do think she owes you some answers.


I agree here but I think she owes you an apology for the lies. These are the are the hardest to accept..the lies.


----------



## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

I can't believe how many on here think lying to your spouse about fundamental aspects of your life is OK. If you can lie about something relatively unimportant, how can your spouse trust you when it really matters? This kind of person is useless as a partner.

The fact she was with someone else when you were broken up doesn't matter in the slightest. The fact she lied about it does. Unless you are some obsessive over protective husband, that might explain her lying.


----------



## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

citygirl4344 said:


> Sometimes we do some stupid things when we are younger and maybe this was her stupid thing.
> You said it was a year after they broke up that you guys got back together so you being plan B is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
> Yes she probably should have told you but if she hasn't contacted him or there are issues in your marriage I don't see why you are set at creating an issue about it.
> Everyone has a past.
> ...


I agree with this poster. Her mistake was not being honest with you when she cam back from the states. It was probably due to her dumping you for him. Well the Karma bus got her and she got dumped!

She learned her lesson. She realized she had a good man and let him go. That is not plan B. She didn't come running looking for you after the OM dumped her. She healed and moved on. You guys met again when she came back. You had just ended a $hitty relationship too. So you were not waiting on her either. You moved on too. 

Let this go. You are NOT plan B. She didn't cheat on you. She dumped you while you were going steady. She did not break any vows. Dating is a time to figure out what you really want in a long term partner. The timing was off when she left for the states and hooked up with the OM after leaving you. She figured long distance relationships wouldn't work out. She decided to not feel lonely in the states and chose OM to date. It's OKay, that is our period to do $hitty things like that and not be prosecuted for it.

She loves you and you love her. You have two little ones you are both responsible for. Discuss it with her if you want, but don't make a mountain out of a mow-hill.

Enjoy your happiness while you have it! Hopefully it will be a lifetime of it!


----------



## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

It is absolutely possible to make a mistake and just want to forget it. I had a similar situation in college. I had been dating my gf for a year and a half. I met a girl and she was cute and flirty. I'm not the cheating kind, so I broke up with my gf and broke her heart. I dated this other girl for a while, then she cheated twice. I realized what I had lost and tried to get my old gf back. The difference here is that she wouldn't date me again. Totally my loss. But, by dating this other girl, I realized just how much I really wanted my old gf back. 

I really think you need to clear the air with your wife or this will always haunt you. Tell her what you know and ask her to be honest. I think some posters here are going a little overboard by assuming she intentionally tried to hurt you or that you were plan B. I know from experience that being young leads to bad decisions.


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

canshoot said:


> We are happily married, other than routine problems there is nothing wrong about our relationship. *But why did she lie about it and never told me anything?* I didn't want to know this, but now I can't forget and move on...


Instead of asking strangers who don't know you both..ermm why not ask her... (notice the three dots at the end)


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't think what she did was necessarily a divorceable offense. OP has said that up to now they have had a good, productive marriage free of adultery. That is not something to be thrown away unless her past offense was so egregious that it cannot be forgiven. 

I chalk her behavior up to youthful stupidity, and only she can answer whether or not it was her intent to stay with the OM and eventually marry him until he dumped her. I can't help but think, that given she has stayed with OP for this long and has been a faithful wife to him, that she feels her eventual choice was a good one, even if it was born out of a situation where she acted stupidly and made some bad choices. 

She owes it to OP to be honest and contrite when he confronts her. If he confronts her, her true motivations will be evident by the type of reaction she gives him to his discovery.


----------



## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

Talk to her about it, OP. If it bothers you it is important, don't minimise your worry. But remember that though your feelings may be right, the conclusion you draw from them might not be. Just 'cause she hurt you with the lie doesn't mean the relationship should be thrown out the window.

The important thing here is the conversation. If she asks why bring up something from ten years, I think a reasonable response is why hide it for ten years. In all this time you two have been married she didn't trust you enough to tell you? I wonder what that says about the level of comfort in the relationship. Seems kinda....anyway. You need to know what she will say about all this. She may say something to take away all your concerns. Or a firestorm may come down from the heavens. You have to decide. Be a man about it already.

Contrary to what other posters have said I do not think your feelings are unjustified. Just don't let those feelings make you irrational.

I dunno if I read it and forgot but how was it you came by the CD?


----------



## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Guys point of view. 

She dumps OP and goes straight to US and start living with OM. So yes she chose OM over OP. 

The only reason she left OM is because he dumped her. 

Of course OP would date after getting dumped like that, why would he think she was ever coming back.

The thing is he was HONEST about what went on with him. She LIED about EVERYTHING. 

OP talk with your wife. The two of you are the only ones that can fix this. Ask why she felt the need to lie to you and go from there. This is nothing to destroy a marriage over, but if you let it fester it might just do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

canshoot said:


> *I just discovered old MSN logs in an old CD from 10 years ago!!! *My wife and I first met at college and *dated for about 2 years* and right around we graduated from college she dumped me and moved to US to get her MBA. I never understood clearly why she dumped me and after all those years I found these MSN logs with one guy she met before we started dating back in college.
> Right after she dumped me, the guy confesses her his love and they start dating, and actually the guy lives in US and she moves to his apartment while studying her MBA. For some reason that I am not aware of (I suspect from the logs his ex returns or something like that), the guy dumps her after 3-4 months of dating. Almost after one year after that, she moved back home and somehow we met again and started dating again. In the meantime I also had a horrible relationship and recently was broken up, so I got back to her, no questions asked. *We dated over a year again and finally got married 6 years ago. We have been happily married since, we have a son and she is pregnant for the second time. *
> She knows about my relationships when we were separated because I told her!! But she always told me she didn't have anybody in her life while we were separated, and she always loved me, and I was the only one. But, she dumped me because she was scared that I was going to dump her first (wth!!) However, msn logs are clear that she tells the guy how much she loves him at that time.
> *(I also went through her old emails, facebook chat logs, pretty much everything she left behind. There are many other details about her and this guy being together for while).*
> ...


Soooooo....What made you go looking through the old CD's?

How many times have you accused or otherwise questioned her loyalty?

If she was asked....not in your presence...would she call your marriage "Happy"?

What else is going on? Cause this just doesn't sound like the whole deal....I may be wrong...but something is off. If I am wrong..then apologies and my advice is to drop this BS..It's only gonna make you look weak, needy, insecure and generally unattractive. Especially since she is currently pregnant....she's gonna have a whole lot of emotions running around...and don't ever think that your take is the only one...I would bet her first jump, when you bring this up...is too assume that this is a quicky red herring to take suspicion away from you,..

just think about that...


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> You are worried that you are plan B, right?


That and the rugsweeping/gaslighting and lying of course.... not grounds for good future.

Good news, it's not uncommon, so really isn't a big deal, it just sux.

Bad news, is often to people like her, such "indiscretions" don't exist in her reality, as long as she's happy and "looking to the future". You'll have to adjust your awareness for such "editable reality" for the rest of your life. (upside, as I said, not uncommon so is actually useful to have coping mechanism for such people, and learn not to get "hung up" on things so much).


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

I don't understand why so many posters are looking at this as it's none of his business what her past is....OP has no right to expect her to tell him.

Well....OP posted earlier that it is obvious from the saved emails that she dumped him for the OM.....that makes it THEIR past, not just hers.....and he has every right to be upset about her deceiving him about this fact, not just when she first did it but also when they got back together and she deliberately lied about what had happened when she went away.

She did not want to risk losing OP once she had decided she wanted to M.....so she used dishonesty to manipulate the situation to ensure what she wanted.

Based on what OP has posted about his feelings at the time of their M, he probably would have M anyway because he decided he loved her.

But that's not the issue he is dealing with in reality.

He is now aware and facing the fact that his W is capable of and willing to lie to and deceive him to make sure she gets what she wants.

That isn't an issue from the past....it is a potential problem in the future, even if their M is happy and good now.

This is unacceptable behavior from either partner in a relationship.....I'm actually glad Thor has been posting about this because his M is a prime example of what can happen when a partner decides this is a legitimate path/decision to take in a M, and it can manifest in a lot more issues than just infidelity as he has unfortunately learned.

Will OP's W behave this way again?......impossible to predict for certain.

But she has a precedent of doing it in the past......and I think it is acceptable and within his rights to inform her that he has now discovered this, and it can never happen again if she wants the M to continue.

This is nothing more than OP setting a reasonable M boundary NOW that he has all the facts she denied him years ago when they M.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

canshoot said:


> For some reason that I am not aware of (I suspect from the logs his ex returns or something like that), the guy dumps her after 3-4 months of dating. Almost after one year after that, she moved back home and somehow we met again and started dating again.


So she broke up with you and moved to the US to go to college and live with some other guy. What was she - all of 21 or 22? Sounds like what a lot of college age *kids* do - break up when they move far away for school or when they've found another love interest. That's what they do.

Then Romeo dumps her a few months later. So, she got the same treatment she gave you. Again, that's what young people DO.

*A year LATER* she moves back home and you two bump into each other and start dating again. Everyone's acting like she dumped you for this guy, got dumped, then called you immediately and wormed her way back into your life, and that's not how it happened.

She's clearly guilty of not telling you the truth of where she was and what she was doing in the US, but it's EQUALLY clear you weren't Plan B. She didn't seek you out after the breakup, and she didn't come looking to you to get back together again after she was dumped. She simply went on with her life until you two met up again and decided to start dating again. How the hell does that make you Plan B?


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

ABHale said:


> Guys point of view.
> 
> The only reason she left OM is because he dumped her.


Just remember that's true of at least half the folks you run into here. If you marry anybody who was married or in a relationship with another, its likely they left their former sqeeze only because they got dumped. Tell me I'm wrong.





Dyokemm said:


> I don't understand why so many posters are looking at this as it's none of his business what her past is....OP has no right to expect her to tell him.


For what ever reason she broke up with him, she had a right to see other people. He said,_ "Right after she dumped me, the guy confesses her his love and they start dating, and actually the guy lives in US and she moves to his apartment while studying her MBA." _ (emphasis on "Right after she dumped me".) 
Hey if he don't like it, he can always hit the road. It is what it is and ain't nothing gonna change what went down.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Xenote said:


> Honestly Cahoot your reading too much into this.
> 
> 1. yes she dumped you and another guy...who in turn dumped her...so karma hit be back
> 2. she lied there was no one else, mostly likely because it was a bad dump, and she feels guilt about it
> ...


Yeah, this.

My wife did something similar, but we were also teenagers (18, 19) at the time and had been dating a few years. She dumped me rather spontaneously (the week after her birthday, and 2 weeks before our 3rd anniversary. I had bought her a ring, lol), started dating somebody else within a week or so, and that was that for ~15 years. Except for the following 4 months when I had to see her EVERY single day at school, hanging off this guys arm... ugh. When we reconnected in our mid-30's, I jokingly brought that up, and she swore she didn't dump me back then for this guy. It was pretty clear she did, but even to this day (now 20+ years after the fact) she maintains she didn't.

Does it bother me? No. Well, only the fact that she was so stubborn to maintain this for all these years, but otherwise, meh. Kids will be kids.

She didn't realize the hurt she had caused me during those last few months of school, nor the fact that I didn't go to my prom because of that. It's likely your wife wanted to avoid owning up to that can of worms. She was in a fog back then, and what she was doing at the time (your wife and mine) wasn't out of the ordinary.

If my wife and I didn't somehow reconnect all those years later, her actions would have been inconsequential, and frankly, rather typical of the dating scene. Same with yours. The fact that we both ended up with wives who we previously dated while young and who did things that are extremely common and, yes, normal, is beyond our control.

Long story short, it's quite normal to protect ones self in this manner. Especially when this type of scenario presents itself. Sometimes people break up then get back together again. What happens in between is, especially at a younger age, a learning experience, and often a mistake (or series of mistakes), and there's an embarrassment factor.

Meh. Let it go.


----------



## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

canshoot said:


> Almost after one year after that, she moved back home and *somehow* we met again and started dating again.


*"Somehow" * Either you randomly met again or she went looking for you. If she whet looking for you then either she was ready to settle down or her time with the OM made her realize how special you are.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> You are worried that you are plan B, right?


Rightfully so. Seems fairly obvious that he was....

Another example of why you don't "lie to protect" someone.

Now that he's found it, it hurts 100 times more than if she had been honest.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Personal said:


> That said your issues about her having a life outside of you because she isn't your property are your issue alone.
> 
> As to all of this Plan A and Plan B nonsense, let it go. Honestly *the fragility that so many men here display is starting to convince me that men as a gender are probably the weaker sex*.


I really like this statement.

As a man I agree and can relate to this. Many men have hair-trigger emotions.....pubic-hair triggered emotions. Their women is what?.....THEIRS, as in keep your hands off and your dirty minds off and away from MY women.

Women ARE NOT property IN THE EYES OF THE LAW, but mankind has a thing about laws....they only obey those that they agree with or that they fear [as in consequences]. Other men/women make, create, enforce laws. The laws on the books are Man-Made.

Laws in a Man's Mind are made by God....through our genetic make up. 

Guess which ones have the real power? No, not the ones made by the committee of white collar chumps up in State/Federal Capitals. 

Men are the weaker sex? Oh, yeah..........but only in the Macro Sense. As in, keeping our life-form in the current state and not on a path to Extinction. 

In the Micro Sense-----> We can kick ass, grab a women by the hair and take her back to our castle. But once the man gets the lady back to their castle, he has her hair, she has his balls and peter. Guess which hand has more power? Uh, hah. 

Humor aside, life in our bi-pedal bodies are in every sense of the word "competitive", equal to every other [Life, Domain, Kingdom], animal or vegetable. Being protective of your mate is a good thing, if controlled by a stable and realistic mindset. Stability is tenuous, reality is egocentric. Not helpful.

Women [deep down] appreciate being "owned" but not controlled. They want "their" man to be possessive of them, to be protective of them, to love them with all their being. 

Yea, no women wants to be locked away and denied any reasonable dreams that they aspire to. 

I believe that Possession can be equated to being Appreciated in the higher sense of human interaction.

When men and women marry, this Ownership is attested to by the Rings and the Vows. Both of these [rings and vows] are symbolic. Their strength is only as strong as the individual emotions/commitments [weaknesses/strengths] adjoined.

I own my wife, she likes it...she owns me, I like it........ or else, gulp!. 

Ownership is in the eyes of the Beholden, in the minds of the Beholden. Marriage, unfortunately, is a fragile bond.....not Ionic....not extended network Covalent [diamond hard], but often is Polar-Covalent [a selfish union].


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

If OP just lets it go..... don't we call that rugsweeping? 

If OP just lets it go.... don't we say this can build resentment?

Don't we say resentment leads to a breakdown in communication?

Once you start placing those bricks down to build The Wall....

I always heard one should be able to ask their spouse anything.... if it bothers them.

That's my $7.02 (had $7 coupon that expires today)


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Chuck, the only thing he can legitimately complain about is her telling him there was no involvement while they broke up. My read is that after they broke up, he had little or no expectation they'd get back together, let alone marry. Hence, why he was dating other women. He need to limit his inquiry on why she prevaricated when ask if dated anyone and maybe had a c/d around with this stuff on it. He appears to be very insecure and that may have something to do with her being less than forthcoming. Like Col Jessep said in a Few Good Men, "you can't handle the truth". Folks acting like she had some sort of duty to faithful to him after she gave him his walking papers and bugged out to the U.S. are full of crap.


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

This post is so wrought with bad advice and misconceptions...



Personal said:


> As to keeping things like letters, gifts, notes emails etc from old relationships, there is nothing wrong in doing this. One shouldn't feel compelled to purge their own history just because they have chosen you.


Yes, this is true, but it has NOTHING to do with the original post.



> What she did before or between you with respect to relationships is her concern not yours.


Um, partially true in a general sense, but when this relationship DIRECTLY influenced your previous relationship with her, it is ABSOLUTELY your concern.



> Instead of playing poor me and wallowing in egotistical self pity, you ought to get over it since who she has a relationship with before or between relationships is her privilege not your right.


Are you kidding me. She is STILL passively lying to him about it. It's not about the right to know (but since it had to deal with him, he should have the right), it's about the lying. Do you understand that? It's about the EL WHY EYE EN GEE!



> For your own sake and hers as well you would do well to get over yourself and grow up.


Could this be any worse of advice? I mean, completely dismissive and uncaring. You are calling him a *****. It's absurd.



> As to marriage counselling, you should consider individual counselling or perhaps even psychiatric help before marriage counselling.


OMFG, I really hope you didn't read most of the original post. I really hope you aren't just being dense on this. SHE IS LYING TO HIM! She lied to him before and is still lying to him now! How is that HIS fault?!?!?



> Since her relationships pre your marriage aren't a marital issue. That said your issues about her having a life outside of you because she isn't your property are your issue alone.


His own relationship with her prior to their marriage isn't a concern for him? She dumped him for another dude that she was likely already talking to WHILE they were together! Sure, he can go over it. It's possible. But she then lied to him about it. For years! 



> As to all of this Plan A and Plan B nonsense, let it go. Honestly the fragility that so many men here display is starting to convince me that men as a gender are probably the weaker sex.


Why, cause we don't want to be lied to? Are you flipping kidding me?


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Hello Canshoot and sorry to have you here. I have just finished reading your thread and here are my thoughts etc.


I fully understand how you feel as early on in our relationship (we were engaged) my wife lied to me about something similar and later when I found out, I gave her a chance to come clean (after I had already married her on false premises and went on to have children). She firstly lied about it, and I was in limbo. She actually turned it round to get angry with me for suspecting this. Later I got even more confirmation but never told her about it and asked her again with more specific references this time. She got even angrier because she knew I knew but could not produce physical proof. I hold this grudge till today.

I have a few questions first: are you both Greek ? If not why are you in Greece now ? The reason I ask is that my mother is part Greek and I would have a different perspective if this was the case.

Now here is what I think happened. 

You both went to college (in Greece ?) and the two of you fooled around. You thought it was a relationship, she knew it wasn't. She started up with this guy in the US. She knows she is going to be seeing him soon and dumps you. Fine so far except that she was not honest about why she dumped you as it would make her out to be a bit of a sh!t.


She goes there, he gets to fvck her and she gets to live with him while doing her MBA. And you never knowing this was the reason she dumped you. His ex turns up and he drops her like a bad cold! During this time she thinks she is in love with him and he knows he isn't (shoe is on the other foot now). Any way a woman scorned and all that, she now "hates" him (yeah right!).

She comes back home and you guys hook up and she now has a relatively safe Plan B to father kids, provide for them and I guess some kind of love grows. This would not have happened if you knew the truth and so she keeps it from you. In fact it isn't that she just chose not tell you, SHE ACTIVELY LIED WHEN YOU ASKED HER ABOUT IT.

You were then tricked into marrying her and having a bogus (Plan B based) relationship, you then went on to have kids with her. This would rip the guts out of me.

She has lived with this all this time but kept the CD to remind her of the "one that got away" - obviously she either has feelings for him or she never got closure on it.

So … early on she was a bit of a two timing sh!t. Then she was a champion liar and deceiver. And some how she got you to marry her. The real question is - what is she now ? We know what she was.

Well you now find this CD and now know (not think) that she had a relationship that she still wanted to keep with POS. Also you know that she would still be in it if she was not dumped.

Sure has kids with you now, and you have been fairly stable, and so she now has some kind of "love" for you. But not the kind that you want.

I would talk to her about it. Show her the CD (take a copy first) and tell her that:


You know what she did and about the lies she told to you.
She has just this one chance to come clean and tell the absolute and most accurate details.


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)




----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

If you confront her Canshoot, and if she confirms what you believe happened, then you have some hard choices to make.

Are you coming back?


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> Chuck, the only thing he can legitimately complain about is her telling him there was no involvement while they broke up. My read is that after they broke up, he had little or no expectation they'd get back together, let alone marry. Hence, why he was dating other women. He need to limit his inquiry on why she prevaricated when ask if dated anyone and maybe had a c/d around with this stuff on it. He appears to be very insecure and that may have something to do with her being less than forthcoming. Like Col Jessep said in a Few Good Men, "you can handle the truth". Folks acting like she had some sort of duty to faithful to him after she gave him his walking papers and bugged out to the U.S. are full of crap.


.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Let's look at the facts.

1) She dumps OP for some stooge, let's call him "Chad".

2) OP has no idea this is why he got dumped by his then gf whose "in love" with Chad.

3) Chad pumps and dumps her after 3-4 months and seeks out other conquests.

4) She runs into OP and decides he's now good enough to date/marry now that plan A has failed.

Yup, sounds like a Plan B scenario to me. Am I missing something here?

Did she cheat? Yes. There was clearly overlap based on OP's timeline of events.

She had to have been in at least an EA to move in with him immediately back in the US.

OP has a right to feel hurt and duped. He got played by a hypergamous woman.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I am not convinced this is a Plan B situation. Not enough specificity on the timing and manner of reconnecting after she moved back. Maybe yes, but maybe she grew up and realized OP was her real deal Plan A. Yes there was at least some overlap and EA when she dumped him.

The lying is a problem. Ideally it was a stupid one-off thing. Yeah we do stupid things especially when young. But this is a form of infidelity which needs to be discussed and resolved. The same steps as recovery after an affair, just not as intense. W needs to show true remorse, ask forgiveness, and demonstrate it will never happen again. Trust needs to be rebuilt, which will take some time. OP needs to set a clear real boundary so she knows she cannot do anything like this again. She has to understand the damage she has done, and that OP will be hypersensitive to a few things for a good while (lies, deceptions, anything to do with OM, etch) so she needs to avoid pouring fuel on the fire.

OP found the truth, now it has to be processed.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

I wish our man Canshoot would come back a clarify if she ditched him for the other man. My interpretation is she did not, taking at face value what he wrote. (i.e. "Right after she dumped me, the guy confesses her his love and they start dating) 
As far a plan B, I've always proffered most everybody is somebody's plan B. I wonder how many on this site are with their spouse only because a former relationship didn't work out. I married a divorcee. I know I'm plan B. But far superior to any Plan A  (her real plan A was Rhett Butler (Clark Gable) in Gone with the Wind.)


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Just remember that's true of at least half the folks you run into here. If you marry anybody who was married or in a relationship with another, its likely they left their former sqeeze only because they got dumped. Tell me I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes Vlad,

He did post that in his op.

But in a later post he stated it is clear from the emails that she broke up with him to go after OM.

They weren't M or committed, so she had the right to pursue whatever she thought would make her happy....I can agree with that.

However, she owed her bf honesty about what went down.....and even if one is willing to give her a pass on not divulging at the time (hey, slimy and dishonest way to leave, but it is true they were not committed then and to some people's way of thinking being a deceptive turd on the way out the door is acceptable), the same pass can't really be extended when they got back together, were planning M, and he SPECIFICALLY asked her about what happened when they broke up and separated for a couple years.

IMO.....that lie and piece of manipulation she has to own.....and as I've said a couple times already, it highlights the real issue he needs to discuss with her out of all this.....

Her willingness to lie and hide truth from him in order to get her way on decisions that effect them both.

That is not something OP should tolerate or let pass unmentioned.

He needs to inform her he now knows she did it....and it can never be repeated in the future if she wants to remain M.


----------



## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Just remember that's true of at least half the folks you run into here. If you marry anybody who was married or in a relationship with another, its likely they left their former sqeeze only because they got dumped. Tell me I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> Very true the difference being she dumped OP for him. I be been dumped before, who hasn't. Tried once getting back with one. found out after the guy she dumped me for got what he wanted from her he turned his back on her. She came back to me with in three weeks. I Found out a couple of days later what had happened. We talked and I said no to getting back together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Was OP American? She probably wanted to get citizenship. Then Yankee boy dumped her. She probably wasn't shaving enough. You know those Greek women are hairstute.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Dyokemm said:


> Yes Vlad,
> 
> He did post that in his op.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree with this (and other similar replies). It's nothing personal, it's just that my own experience was somewhat similar, though the amount of time in between break-up and reconnecting is different.

I look at it this way - 2 people dated for a period of time, then they broke up. In OP's case AND mine, it was ostensibly to 'test the waters', see what else is out there, etc. Both OP's (now) wife and mine broke up with us because somebody else came on the scene. Somebody that happened to have something we didn't at that time, somebody new, exciting, different, whatever. Both women were young at the time, going through transitionary periods in their lives (OP's wife going to uni, mine finishing HS). Both were the recipients of somebody else's interest, which sparked a change in how they viewed US.

But the most glaring point to this, is that both OP's wife and mine decided, for similar reasons, that we were not the right person for them *AT THAT TIME.*

Every one of us here has been broken up with at some point. Because we were not the right person for them. And we've all done the same thing to other people. It happens, we move on, we find somebody else.

Here, we have a situation in which the people got back together (as did my wife and I, though the timeframe was considerably longer).

OP did not have this woman crawl back to him immediately after being dumped. It was ~a year later in which they reconnected. This is not him being "Plan B". If this were the case, then I'd be "Plan R", as my wife had numerous relationships in the 15 years before we reconnected.

If we had never reconnected, then it would be a non-issue. Just another relationship ended for perfectly normal reasons.

Now the other thing people are going back and forth about is that they feel OP's wife should be open and honest about her motives at that time, and that somehow her inability to do so speaks to how she views the marriage.

While I don't _disagree_ with the first part, I absolutely do with the second.

When my now wife dumped me way back then, it was because somebody else had shown an interest in her, and that felt good. I do not believe (nor did I then) that she broke up with me specifically to date this guy - only that it made her feel good about herself, knowing others liked her. Her scenario was similar, in that as soon as she was single, this guy professed his love for her - not before. But prior to that, it was clear that there was a mutual attraction. Meh. Perhaps if our relationship was more exciting, and not 3 years old at that time, and we weren't so young, it wouldn't have happened. They only dated a few months (again, after THREE years with me) before she let him go. Grass wasn't greener.

So when we reconnected in our 30's, what was she supposed to say to me? Sorry I dumped you when I was 18, I met this guy who was better than you? While that would have been absolutely true - at that time - it serves no purpose now to word it that way. No point in stating the obvious.

And at that time, it was also not a mistake, nor do I think OP's scenario was. It was the right decision for that person, at that time. And as time goes by, situations change, and sometimes people get back together.

It's not like my wife and OP's wife were married to us, met somebody else, dumped us for them, and then came crawling back.

This (and my situation) are simply cases of being broken up with, for normal everyday reasons that happen ALL THE TIME. The only difference is the two couple ended up getting back together - after a decent amount of time, to boot.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

As evidenced by both Canshoot's and Alexm's story, another part of my advice, (ignore my advise, acquired by years of experience with women, at your own peril) is once a woman puts you down, don't ever go back unless you're sure you can overlook the fact that you're probably not her first choice i she had her way. Better yet, save yourself some misery and don't go back at all.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> As evidenced by both Canshoot's and Alexm's story, another part of my advice, (ignore my advise, acquired by years of experience with women, at your own peril) is once a woman puts you down, don't ever go back unless you're sure you can overlook the fact that you're probably not her first choice i she had her way. Better yet, save yourself some misery and don't go back at all.


As a woman I support this. 

I'm not saying it couldn't work out when someone takes another "back", as I'm sure there are many examples... And context is everything, but there is a distinctly significant impression left on women when they realize that a good man has strong boundaries and does not give second chances. She realizes that she lost a very good thing and unless she is very foolish, very young, or a combination of the two, she will not make that error again in life when she finds such a man again.

I'd give the same advice to any woman dealing with a man begging her back after letting her go. If they let you go, they don't want you. Fair enough if they're testing the waters, but you also have a choice to not be the spare surfboard.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Satya said:


> I'd give the same advice to any woman dealing with a man begging her back after letting her go.


Yep. That door swings both ways.


----------



## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

alexm said:


> ... Here, we have a situation in which the people got back together (as did my wife and I, though the timeframe was considerably longer). OP did not have this woman crawl back to him immediately after being dumped


OK ...



alexm;16665833OK said:


> ...the other thing people are going back and forth about is that they feel OP's wife should be open and honest *about her motives* at that time


 [my emphasis]

OK ...

And the third thing that people are going on about - which is conspicuous by its absence from your post, alexm, is this: *the OP's W lied to him*. She


canshoot said:


> ... always told [OP] she didn't have anybody in her life while we were separated, and she always loved me, and I was the only one. But ... msn logs are clear that she tells the guy how much she loves him.


You say that


alexm said:


> [The OP's situation] and my situation are simply cases of being broken up with, for normal everyday reasons that happen ALL THE TIME. *The only difference* is the two couple ended up getting back together - after a decent amount of time, to boot.


 [my emphasis]

But that isn't the only difference. Not at all. Your wife


alexm said:


> ... had numerous relationships in the 15 years before we reconnected


 and you knew the score. Whereas OP's wife lied, not only about the fact that there was someone in her life during the period she and OP were apart, but in stating that she 'always loved OP and he was the only one'

Your post is effectively an apologia for OP's W's behaviour, almost it seems crafted to deflect attention onto the 'happens to everybody' aspects that 'don't really matter' (and, indeed, maybe they don't) and completely ignoring the elephant in the room - the lying.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> As evidenced by both Canshoot's and Alexm's story, another part of my advice, (ignore my advise, acquired by years of experience with women, at your own peril) is once a woman puts you down, don't ever go back unless you're sure you can overlook the fact that you're probably not her first choice i she had her way. Better yet, save yourself some misery and don't go back at all.


Well... a guy can take her back and fvck her. But he has to tell her he isn't going to marry her. He just needs to hit it until she gets tired of it and moves on.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Satya said:


> As a woman I support this.
> 
> I'm not saying it couldn't work out when someone takes another "back", as I'm sure there are many examples... And context is everything, but there is a distinctly significant impression left on women when they realize that a good man has strong boundaries and does not give second chances. She realizes that she lost a very good thing and unless she is very foolish, very young, or a combination of the two, she will not make that error again in life when she finds such a man again.
> 
> I'd give the same advice to any woman dealing with a man begging her back after letting her go. If they let you go, they don't want you. Fair enough if they're testing the waters, but you also have a choice to not be the spare surfboard.


Here's the thing - in my case, as well as OP's, she wasn't taking him "back" (or vice versa). As I gather from his story, they found each other again a year or so after the break up. In my case, it was 15 years.

Some might call this fate (the more romantic of you, anyway!)

If you want to talk about "Plan B's", then IMO, everyone is somebody's Plan B, inasmuch as we've ALL been broken up with at some point, and weren't happy about it. Some folks will still hold a torch for months, years, and in some cases, a lifetime. We've all had our hearts broken and longed for someone. That, in theory, makes anybody we date and/or marry, after that person, a "Plan B", no?

In some cases (again, like OP's and mine) it's the ol' "You don't know what you've got til it's gone" thing.

I think the more apt description of this phenomenon would be 'settling'. You tend to see this a little later in life, however, IMO. That said, I would absolutely say that my ex wife settled for me, at that time. Some poor childhood/teenaged circumstances and experiences likely made me seem like a good, safe bet for her at the time. Was I a "Plan B"? No. Did she settle for me? Absolutely. I presented a stable, non-glamorous, suburban middle-class existence, with a tiny bit of badassery. Turns out she wanted more of the badassery than anything else - which is what she had before me, and subsequently after me. Old habits, and all that.


----------



## MSalmoides (Sep 29, 2016)

...


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Mike6211 said:


> OK ...
> 
> [my emphasis]
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

I did say in the post (somewhere) that I don't agree with the lying part. Though I do stress that's not, IMO, grounds for a relationship apocalypse.

Years ago, here on TAM, I was firmly in the "past is important in a relationship" camp, and that each person should be open and honest and disclose whatever it is the other wants to know about. For whatever reason, I have gradually switched sides in that debate, and now firmly believe that the _present_ is what's important. Especially when one's past has nothing to do with (or no real impact on) the present relationship.

I'm not an apologist for his wife's behaviour in this. I would not be pleased, either. HOWEVER, simply because a ~20 year old girl tells someone she loves them, does not mean she does. There is often a fog at the beginning of relationships, and, dare I say it, especially when young. It is easy for this fog to be lifted when said guy ends things rather abruptly.

As I said, my experiences with this are similar - not exact. There are many differences. However, my (now) wife - at that time - saw this other guy as better than me. It did not take her long to realize he wasn't, and she moved on. Perhaps she felt love for him during that time, maybe she even said it to him. _At that time_, it was true, in her mind. A few months later, notsomuch. The light bulb clicks on that that wasn't real love, it was new-relationship lust.

So perhaps, when she's asked about this ~10 years after the fact, she IS telling the truth- that she did not love him, nor anybody else. Just because someone says those words does not mean it's true.

But, just like my wife, OP's wife - at that time - did not love him (OP), or wasn't sure, or confused somebody else's lust for them as love. My wife didn't come crawling back to me at that time, as I was taken, and that ship had otherwise sailed, anyway. OP's wife didn't come crawling back to him, either. BUT, if they had... who cares? People DO sometimes make these decisions, especially when young and inexperienced, and it helps them to figure out what love really _is_.

Bottom line - this type of thing happens. What's rare is two people getting back together much later on (whether it be one year or fifteen) and staying with each other, even marrying. Lots of people date, break up (or separate) then get back together. Some don't.

IMO, if OP and his now wife got back together immediately after she was dumped AND she lied about being with somebody else - that's a problem. There was a solid year between reconnecting, a whole year in which she could think about the situation, figure out she wasn't actually in love with this other guy, etc. They started to date again, and they later married. Turned out she DID love him, after all.


----------



## canshoot (Oct 4, 2016)

I talked to her about the CD and directly asked her why she was keeping a copy of that. I also asked why she never told me about her relationship. I can't say I am satisfied with what she replied. We had a very short conversation, maybe 5-10 mins. 
She says, she doesn't even remember that she burned the CD. All she did was backing up her desktop computer before she left country. (I did not buy this, because it is a single CD only with those logs in it and marked with a smiley on top).
She says that she was not actually lying to me because she didn't left me because of the other guy and their relationship was not that serious. They only hung out for couple weeks and then separated. The guy hasn't contacted her ever since, neither she has. Although they lived almost 2 years in the same city and went to school (different departments) they never saw each other. 
She did not want to talk much about it, she did not want to answer anything specific. The only thing she said was that it was a big mistake to hang out with that guy. When I asked her if she wants to look at the CD, she actually got annoyed, and told me that she doesn't want to see it and that I should get rid of it. 
I am very confused. I don't know what I expected but I think she overreacted and she was in complete denial. After almost more than 10 years now, she is still very upset with whatever happened... Or maybe she got very upset that I found out abut her relationship, I can't tell.
I will still give her the CD and I will ask her to go back and read some old emails that was left in her mail box from that time.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

MSalmoides said:


> She was beyond shocked but immediately confessed. She swore it was only a brief fling, a big mistake, that she felt guilty about it all these years, and that she only loved my friend. She also thought she'd thrown the notes away. He couldn't handle it and shortly thereafter he left her. The whole thing was devastating to everyone involved. I can't tell you the number of times he told me that he wished he'd never opened that box, but once he knew he was a wreck and had to do "something". Both are great people and it was very painful to watch all of this play out. So much wreckage.
> .


She was a dumbfvck for keeping those letters. If it was just a fling or a "mistake" and meant nothing to her, why keep the letters? I don't keep reminders of my mistakes. 

Stupid woman.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

canshoot said:


> I talked to her about the CD and directly asked her why she was keeping a copy of that. I also asked why she never told me about her relationship. I can't say I am satisfied with what she replied. We had a very short conversation, maybe 5-10 mins.
> She says, she doesn't even remember that she burned the CD. All she did was backing up her desktop computer before she left country. (I did not buy this, because it is a single CD only with those logs in it and marked with a smiley on top).
> She says that she was not actually lying to me because she didn't left me because of the other guy and their relationship was not that serious. They only hung out for couple weeks and then separated. The guy hasn't contacted her ever since, neither she has. Although they lived almost 2 years in the same city and went to school (different departments) they never saw each other.
> She did not want to talk much about it, she did not want to answer anything specific. The only thing she said was that it was a big mistake to hang out with that guy. When I asked her if she wants to look at the CD, she actually got annoyed, and told me that she doesn't want to see it and that I should get rid of it.
> ...




She is lying through her teeth. You gave her a chance to come clean and she lies again. 

This is what we call "gaslighting". She's trying to make you feel like you are blowing it all out of proportion.

Look man, if their relationship wasn't that serious, why were they telling each other how much they loved each other and couldn't wait to be together.... before she left you? :surprise:

Dude you need to print out those e-mails and highlight all the places where they exchanged "I Love You's" and affectionate stuff.


----------



## MSalmoides (Sep 29, 2016)

...


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

canshoot said:


> We are happily married, other than routine problems there is nothing wrong about our relationship. But why did she lie about it and never told me anything? I didn't want to know this, but now I can't forget and move on...


Do you really want to ruin your marriage over something that happened years ago? 

Look this guy is out of the picture now, it happened years ago, she copied something on a CD & probably forgot all about it! 
Who knows why she didn't tell about this guy, maybe she's embarrassed about dating such a guy! 

Can't you let it go? 
Why have unnecessary fights over something that happened years ago? 

Are you going to let the past ruin your future? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

MrsAldi said:


> Do you really want to ruin your marriage over something that happened years ago?
> 
> Look this guy is out of the picture now, it happened years ago, she copied something on a CD & probably forgot all about it!
> Who knows why she didn't tell about this guy, maybe she's embarrassed about dating such a guy!
> ...


What he needs to do is tell her that if lying is going to be the modus operandi from this point on, then he will start lying to her too. Quid pro quo....


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

canshoot said:


> I talked to her about the CD and directly asked her why she was keeping a copy of that. I also asked why she never told me about her relationship. I can't say I am satisfied with what she replied. We had a very short conversation, maybe 5-10 mins.
> She says, she doesn't even remember that she burned the CD. All she did was backing up her desktop computer before she left country. (I did not buy this, because it is a single CD only with those logs in it and marked with a smiley on top).
> She says that she was not actually lying to me because she didn't left me because of the other guy and their relationship was not that serious. They only hung out for couple weeks and then separated. The guy hasn't contacted her ever since, neither she has. Although they lived almost 2 years in the same city and went to school (different departments) they never saw each other.
> She did not want to talk much about it, she did not want to answer anything specific. The only thing she said was that it was a big mistake to hang out with that guy. When I asked her if she wants to look at the CD, she actually got annoyed, and told me that she doesn't want to see it and that I should get rid of it.
> ...


Now..... no matter what you chose..... do you trust her?

One can not love, without trust... well you can but it is a miserable life. 

Just as MSalmo stated.... it can be years down the road and even forgotten about.....

but it still hurts just the same. Too many people make foolish mistakes and think after a few years...

they're in the clear. Not hardly....


----------



## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

alexm said:


> ... simply because a ~20 year old girl tells someone she loves them, does not mean she does. There is often a fog at the beginning of relationships, and, dare I say it, especially when young. It is easy for this fog to be lifted when said guy ends things rather abruptly.


Fair enough. 



> the lying part ... not ... grounds for a relationship apocalypse.


I agree, in all the circumstances.

But neither should it be rugswept IMO.

I'm not sure how I'd handle this were I the OP. Perhaps, starting from your first quote above, I'd recognise that what I would regard as 'rewriting history' and 'unilateral decision taking' could equally(?) be seen as 'becoming clear after the event' and 'confirming' (by omission, mark you) that the OM had never *really* been her love focus'.

I'd need to recognise my own contribution to the situation, if any. There's a big difference between having "asked" by saying "Darling, tell me that I'm the only one for you, I always have been, and there hasn't been anyone while we were apart who ever made you doubt your love for me' and having said "Darling, I do need to ask you, and I'm sorry to, but it's important to me .. who have you been with while we've been apart, and how emotionally involved you were with them?" The first sets up the 'let bygones be bygones' response, the latter can't honourably be deflected.

I think I'd raise the matter with W, hopefully without accusation or blaming, more expressing my feelings of discomfort. and unhappiness Hopefully the response would be willingness to engage, acknowledgement of my feelings, and concern that we hadn't been on the same page when 'that conversation' took place. I think I'd take comfort from all that. 

If the response was denial, unwillingness to engage, and attempted rugsweeping, I *think* I'd probably take the line that I'd feel the need for a few sessions with a counsellor to resolve my feelings. Probably a touch of passive-aggressiveness there TBH - 'I feel uncomfortable not knowing what really happened, so now you can feel uncomfortable too, not knowing what's happening in my therapy sessions'. And, I think I'd be concerned that W might feel that she'd 'got away' with dishonesty consequence-free. So I might feel the need to say that, now we're married, of course the question of other men doesn't arise ... but (looking her directly in the eye) neither does the luxury of 'massaging' answers, if I ever ask you direct questions about other men you know.


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Canshoot,

Track down the OM tell him your WW told you everything and you want to confirm her story.

Get a polygraph for your WW.

Tamat


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Keep a copy of the CD. Do not let her destroy it.

You did not get satisfaction. Could you go to counseling or try to talk to the people at affair recovery?

You can find them online.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Mike6211 said:


> I think I'd raise the matter with W, hopefully without accusation or blaming, more expressing my feelings of discomfort. and unhappiness Hopefully the response would be willingness to engage, acknowledgement of my feelings, and concern that we hadn't been on the same page when 'that conversation' took place. I think I'd take comfort from all that.
> 
> If the response was denial, unwillingness to engage, and attempted rugsweeping, I *think* I'd probably take the line that I'd feel the need for a few sessions with a counsellor to resolve my feelings. Probably a touch of passive-aggressiveness there TBH - 'I feel uncomfortable not knowing what really happened, so now you can feel uncomfortable too, not knowing what's happening in my therapy sessions'. And, I think I'd be concerned that W might feel that she'd 'got away' with dishonesty consequence-free. So I might feel the need to say that, now we're married, of course the question of other men doesn't arise ... but (looking her directly in the eye) neither does the luxury of 'massaging' answers, if I ever ask you direct questions about other men you know.


Agreed. Since OP's wife responded the second way, now he is in the unfortunate position where it appears his wife lied to him in the past and is not willing to have a mature discussion about it now in order to get to the bottom of it.

When I started discovering new details of my wife's past which she had obscured and lied about, I felt for a long time what I needed from her was an open conversation about her true history, enough to believe I had an accurate overview. I didn't need all the details, but I did need an accurate accounting of her dating history, teen pregnancy, a basic timeline of who was who that she dated, and some clarification of her self-described promiscuity. Basically enough to not be blindsided when a name came up in a conversation or an old photo shows up, and to know when I'm in the presence of someone she had sex with.

Normally I think a somewhat glossed over version of that is what I would want from a fiance, where I would have a good enough accurate picture so that I could believe I knew the real her. But now when lies are discovered it brings up a need to ensure the truth is known and that there are no further lies yet to surprise.

Thus I think MC is needed. A safe place to explore issues, and someone to moderate. Someone to remind him not to ask if he really doesn't want to know, and to tell her that deception requires an uncomfortable process to recover from.

I just wish OP's report had been she showed any remorse at all for lying.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

MSalmoides said:


> The whole thing was devastating to everyone involved. I can't tell you the number of times he told me that he wished he'd never opened that box, but once he knew he was a wreck and had to do "something". Both are great people and it was very painful to watch all of this play out. So much wreckage.


The only thing as stupid as using your regular cell phones and text messages to communicate with lovers are keeping notes, cards, and letters from a past fling.


----------



## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

canshoot said:


> I will still give her the CD and I will ask her to go back and read some old emails that was left in her mail box from that time.


After years of marriage, you can answer this question: During the course of your marriage, did it seem like she settled for you or that she was really into you? If you have been generally satisfied with her level of passion in your relationship, then she likely did not settle for you. This is really the true test of whether she settled for you. 

Don't ask her to go back and read those old emails. If there is an email that especially bothers you, then tell her about that specific message.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Steve, if Canshoot can't answer this question without *****footing around, he has the answer. If he's had 10 years of "marital bliss", he's a damn fool to let this screw it up. Him questioning if his girlfriend/ former ex/girlfriend and now wife was seeing other guys when she broke up with him is like asking a 15 y.o. boy if ever spanked his monkey while looking at porn. Chicks under 25 y.o. want to date other guys. He ask her about other relationships and she told him what he wanted to hear. Now that he's older and hopefully wiser, he won't be a gullible.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

What is the time span of those emails? Does it confirm her description of how short the relationship was?

Canshoot, I'm not worried you were Plan B. You describe your marriage as having been fine, and that is the bottom line, isn't it? My concern is that she learns it is 100% not ok to lie to you. It could be she minimized and avoided telling you the truth due to her being immature. My concern is that she does not have some basic template in her mind which says it is ok to lie, deceive, and manipulate you. That's where my stbxw was from the beginning. Lies, deceptions, and omissions which were not detectable when we were dating, and which slowly became known over time. Then the discovery of large important lies and deceptions. Then the discussions with her about it which did not result in adequately comfortable outcomes. She deflected, blame shifted, made bizarre counter accusations, and called me all kinds of names. 

Then more lies and deceptions about big important things occurred because that marriage template in her mind said it was ok. She learned this from some screwed up family situations in her extended family as well as childhood experiences.

I never would have believed her capable of all those things 5 or even 10 yrs into the marriage.

So that is my perspective on all this. I don't want you to let things slide and then find out in the future she's continued to perpetrate dishonesty in order to manipulate you or to get what she wants (affairs, spending money, etc). That's why I think you need to have a discussion in order to gauge whether you have gotten an honest accounting from her about the past and to set the absolute nuclear boundary of no lies or deceptions in the future.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OP.....sorry your W decided to not maturely admit what she did, apologize for lying when you directly asked, and assured you she won't do it again.

If she had, this could be safely filed away as a hiccup that could be left entirely in the past.

Because she is gaslighting, it shows that she is refusing to acknowledge how she deceived you at the time you were planning M.

Unfortunately, that means she may not have learned it is something that can't be repeated in the M....that does not mean she WILL do it over another issue in the future.....but if she stubbornly will not admit what she did was wrong, and learn and grow from that mistake, then it may be something she will feel OK with doing in the future.

At least you are aware now that she has this capacity......don't let yourself get blindsided by it going forward......if you ever feel that you are not getting the complete story from your W about an issue in the future, remember this incident.....your gut might be right.

As the Romans said....caveat emptor.

Other than keeping your awareness high about her ability to do this.....I would let it go at this point.

Your M is happy and good.....

And now your W knows you are aware of what truly went down (even if she won't face it and apologize).....her knowledge that you understand she lied to your face at the time of your engagement/M will probably give her hesitation before ever trying to deceive you again, if for no other reason than it is much harder to gaslight a person who already knows you are capable of withholding truth.

Oh and one other silver lining here for your future too....

I know your W has not been in touch with this OM for years now....and hopefully that will remain true for the rest of your lives.

But fortunately, you now KNOW who and what he really is.....and ex bf/lover.

That way, if they ever do reconnect through Facebook or some other social avenue, your W will never be able to gaslight you with the 'just an old friend' horsesh*t that we unfortunately read about so often on postings here on TAM.

You are now aware that OM is anything but an 'old friend' if this unfortunate situation ever arises for you......

It's sadly depressing how many other posters here have been bitten by this years later 'reconnection' bug.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> OP.....sorry your W decided to not maturely admit what she did, apologize for lying when you directly asked, and assured you she won't do it again.
> 
> If she had, this could be safely filed away as a hiccup that could be left entirely in the past.


100% true. This was a golden opportunity for her to strengthen the marriage and create deepened intimacy. I think there is still the chance to reach this point, but it is going to take some nudging and some time, and I believe the help of a therapist experienced in dealing with infidelity. The issue here is 0% that she had a relationship with OM, and 100% her dishonesty about it. Dishonesty is what needs to be processed in therapy. Interview and choose your MC carefully, make sure they don't believe in the rug-sweep school of psychology!



Dyokemm said:


> Because she is gaslighting, it shows that she is refusing to acknowledge how she deceived you at the time you were planning M.
> 
> Unfortunately, that means she may not have learned it is something that can't be repeated in the M....that does not mean she WILL do it over another issue in the future.....but if she stubbornly will not admit what she did was wrong, and learn and grow from that mistake, then it may be something she will feel OK with doing in the future.


Here's my experience: it isn't the dishonesty which is at the root of her belief system which is causing her behavior. I bet she is a generally honest and trustworthy person. I bet she thinks of herself as having high morals and as an honest person. But she also believes in her right to something as being greater than OP's right to the truth. I'm not sure precisely how she is rationalizing this to herself. It could be that OP has no right to know anything about her sexual history (we see that belief here on this forum frequently), or that he has no right to know of her general relationship history. It could be a fear of abandonment, where she believes she has a greater right to keep him from leaving her than for him to have the truth (which is a dysfunctional fear on her part). It could be she believes in her right to privacy in whatever she wants privacy for. It could be a general narcissism, where her every desire trump others' right to the truth.

In my stbxw's case, she has an extreme level of belief that nobody has the right to know anything about her which she does not want to reveal, resulting in vicious anger when challenged. This is self protection not narcissism, though she at times rationalizes desires as ok to hide. She learned she can get away with deception and became comfortable with it, and then generalized it as ok.

This is where boundaries come in to play. A specific boundary must be put in place where no dishonesty, lie, deception, or omission is acceptable. Period. And the consequence is catastrophic. I think it is ok to specify the consequence is divorce, but you'd better mean it! And you'd better set your boundary well. Mine was not defined well, as I had told her anything I found out _from anyone other than her_ was a deal breaker. I meant that to be about past events, not future events. She tested me hard by confessing two major deceptions when I was obviously going to discover them imminently. I made a critical mistake in leaving a loophole in the boundary.

So at this point I think you need to do one of 2 things. You can calmly and firmly tell her that any deception or lie discovered in the future will be an instant divorce (and you better be ready to file papers on her). You don't have to convince her what she did was wrong or even that her version of history is wrong. You just have to impress on her that any repeat is intolerable. She has had her one freebie. The other approach is to set up MC and discuss the topics of manipulation via deception, how it has harmed your marriage, and work on establishing strong trust into the future. This approach seeks to get her to understand on a fundamental basis and to agree with you that what she did was morally wrong, to generate true remorse in her, and to inoculate her against ever even thinking of doing such a thing again.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

This is a tough one. I think you need to take a deep look into yourself and ask "can I let this go or not?" If you find you really can't let this go and it's going to eat you alive, then you need to deal with it, or else your health, your marriage, etc. is going to go down the toilet. So if this is your path, you have to do it right. You need to highlight the spots that bother you and don't jive with her reaction. You need to sit her down and say, look Honey, I've tried, but I cannot move on from this. We need to talk this through all the way, or we are going to have a really big problem. When/if you do this, make this point....tell her while this is old news to her, it is BRAND new information to you, and as such, you're having a very hard time.

That said, this was a very long time ago and you seem to have an otherwise decent marriage and family life. So, think this all the way through first. Be very sure that you can't move on as is. Maybe you can. Only you can properly assess if it's worth it to face this issue or not.


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

A smiley face on it?

I can't believe some people here. This isn't divorcable? Are you kidding me? She is perpetuating a lie to minimize what she did to him. Does it matter how long ago it happened? She is still lying about it. How can he lie down next to his wife and feel good about his relationship? How can he think she has his back? How can he feel safe and secure? Are you kidding me? This is a constant betrayal. She is gaslighting and rug sweeping. Clearly she doesn't think it's that important or she maybe can convince him it's not. 

My heart goes out to you man. She may be a great person, but even great people are capable of doing ****ty things. For your sanity, she needs to know the impact of this and she needs to understand it soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

Thor said:


> When I started discovering new details of my wife's past which she had obscured and lied about, I felt for a long time what I needed from her was an open conversation about her true history, enough to believe I had an accurate overview. I didn't need all the details, but I did need an accurate accounting of her dating history, teen pregnancy, a basic timeline of who was who that she dated, and some clarification of her self-described promiscuity. Basically enough to not be blindsided when a name came up in a conversation or an old photo shows up, and to know when I'm in the presence of someone she had sex with.
> 
> Normally I think a somewhat glossed over version of that is what I would want from a fiance, where I would have a good enough accurate picture so that I could believe I knew the real her. But now when lies are discovered it brings up a need to ensure the truth is known and that there are no further lies yet to surprise.


Thor, once that first lie goes down it's game over. If a woman doesn't own her sh!t, walk. I've learnt the hard way but it's a wonderful feeling to know I can detect and eject unscathed.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TAM2013 said:


> Thor, once that first lie goes down it's game over. If a woman doesn't own her sh!t, walk. I've learnt the hard way but it's a wonderful feeling to know I can detect and eject unscathed.


I'm in agreement with you. The issue is a long term marriage with school age kids. It becomes complicated, and a divorce affects the kids a lot. Putting effort into understanding what happened and working through it _successfully_ is worth the time. If there are no kids or other major complications, yeah run like your a$$ is on fire.

In my case there was no successful processing of stbxw's untrustworthiness. She never understood my perspective and never respected the boundary regardless. Being untrustworthy is really the basic crisis when an affair is discovered. The sex and ILYs are the frosting on the cake. The end goal of R is to rebuild trust. While OP doesn't have serial cheating wife to deal with, he still has to process her lies, deceptions, and manipulation in the same way.

As herschel asked above, how can OP think she has his back? How can he feel safe in this relationship if she is capable of perpetrating lies?


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

People only keep those things that have value to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Do the emails and the dates on them support her story line or not?


----------



## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

Thor said:


> I'm in agreement with you. The issue is a long term marriage with school age kids. It becomes complicated, and a divorce affects the kids a lot. Putting effort into understanding what happened and working through it _successfully_ is worth the time. If there are no kids or other major complications, yeah run like your a$$ is on fire.
> 
> *Of course. Very hard to extract yourself the deeper you are in.*
> 
> ...


----------



## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

There was a news story a while back about a 99 year old man who divorced his 96 year old wife because he found a love letter that she kept from her affair partner. They had been married for about 63 years. She, like many cheaters, thought she could take that secret to her grave. Secrets and lies destroy relationships.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

becareful2 said:


> There was a news story a while back about a 99 year old man who divorced his 96 year old wife because he found a love letter that she kept from her affair partner. They had been married for about 63 years. She, like many cheaters, thought she could take that secret to her grave. Secrets and lies destroy relationships.


99-year-old man to divorce 96-year-old wife - NY Daily News


----------



## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> 99-year-old man to divorce 96-year-old wife - NY Daily News


I can't find any update to their divorce, and whether or not it became finalized.


----------



## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

99 year old dude got principles. What a guy. It's never too late to dump a lying fvcker. In fact, the longer the it goes on, the worse it is.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

...


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Most crimes have a statute of limitations... several do not. To some people cheating has no statute.

Funny you describe these individuals as weak with a fragile ego...... sounds to me it was setting and enforcing

boundaries. I have read stories here where the W uncovered the H cheating decades ago and what did she do....

she D him.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

becareful2 said:


> I can't find any update to their divorce, and whether or not it became finalized.


He's probably dead. Damn that's a hell of a way to finish out your life. 

77 years? Fvck! :surprise:


----------



## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Personal said:


> That said no one should feel obliged to throw out there past, lest they upset someone with a terribly fragile ego.


There's this thing called respect for your spouse...


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I get all of this. This post by OP is a boil on my left cheek.

A saddle boil that I got while riding drag on a herd of testosterone filled bull-sh!ppers. Man, is the dust thick, I want to gag and puke.. 

It stinks in here.......like an old gym locker room with no AC, no fans.

Just who in the flutch do you dudes think you are....Adonis?

You'all remind me of Big Headed Louie, the cement truck driver, down the street. He hated every women he ever met, Oh........Yeah!

Grow the flutch up, you thin-skinned ninnies! 

Canshoot's wife loves him, does not want to lose him. She knows this fact will harm her marriage. 

It is long-gone dirty-water under a bridge that today stands strong and bridges OP's marriage, just fine and [Dandy Doodle all the Day]!


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> I get all of this. This post by OP is a boil on my left cheek.
> 
> A saddle boil that I got while riding drag on a herd of testosterone filled bull-sh!ppers. Man, is the dust thick, I want to gag and puke..
> 
> ...


How constructive!


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> I get all of this. This post by OP is a boil on my left cheek.
> 
> A saddle boil that I got while riding drag on a herd of testosterone filled bull-sh!ppers. Man, is the dust thick, I want to gag and puke..
> 
> ...


Fvck yeah! :yay:


----------



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Yeah, my wife loves me too. She tried to hide **** also. You know what? She doesn't get to ****ing determine what is or is not important to me. She doesn't have the ****ing right to make those decisions on behalf of myself. Maybe I'll get over it, maybe I won't. Either way, that's my goddamned decision to make and saying that someone is soft or weak or should be lied to is as backwards as it gets. You have no clue how she feels or what her motives are, and if you did, it doesn't matter. It's not about being thin skinned when you are lied to for 10 years, or knowing that someone loves you (despite lying to you and possibly cheating on you back then.

All that matters is finding out the truth and then determining what you can live with. Liars lie, and if you haven't gotten that through your head yet, then you shouldn't be giving advice out on what to do with them. Suck it up is what a douche bag football coach says not what someone who is trying to give good information in terms of the rest of your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Great on going straight with the conversation, now drop it. Seriously, you were bf and gf. That is competition time. She owed you loyalty, true. You guys broke up. True. Shyt happens. You got back together. You got married. 

I view dating like competition. You both were competing for the other. You won, she won. Unlike in marriage where yiu have a vow of fidelity, there is none in dating.

Cheating is a dealbreaker in both, but the statute of limitations runs for premarital stuff, at some point. If she cheated early in your marriage and you just found out, I would still say that years later you could walk and be pissed. The competition phase had ended.

You've built a life. It was before marriage. The SOL has run. no good comes from this inquiry. As it stands, there is only one option some posit and you seem to agree; namely, she has to confess to cheating and now prostrate herself and show that she's sorry. It could be that she told the truth. If you cannot accept that, then you will never accept it, so assume she cheated and now what are you gonna do?

No oath, no vows, no harm now. I can't see screwing up a long marriage over this. Post marriage cheating , walk. For now, Tell her you dont believe her, that it bothers you that you don't and it would bother you more if she's lying now. Then accept her next answer and move on. So she loved some dude when you all were a bunch of young fools. Dont be an old one and screw up now.


----------



## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

Some dudes don't mind being cuckolded or other wise sharing their wives. Some dudes like being pegged. Some dudes find even the suggestion of any of that abhorrent. Some dudes will tolerate lies, some won't. It's not a choice, it's who you are and you can't rewire your moral code. There is nothing the OP's wife can do now. It's who she is and she can't rewire her moral code either.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> He's probably dead. Damn that's a hell of a way to finish out your life.
> 
> 77 years? Fvck! :surprise:


Back about 57 of those years ago, one evening when he was pounding the living hell out of it and just getting into his peak, she should have said, "Hon, I forgot to trash some love letters and old beau sent my years back. After our shower I'll take care of that."


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> There's this thing called respect for your spouse...


Yep. If the person you're married to ain't enough to make you forsake all others and the need to hang on to the memory, you're probably married to the wrong person.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

bigfoot said:


> Great on going straight with the conversation, now drop it. Seriously, you were bf and gf. That is competition time. She owed you loyalty, true. You guys broke up. True. Shyt happens. You got back together. You got married.
> 
> I view dating like competition. You both were competing for the other. You won, she won. Unlike in marriage where yiu have a vow of fidelity, there is none in dating.
> 
> ...


You said it much nicer than I did. 

Your are straight forward.

I quickly take the hairpin turns and throw off all the passengers in the process. Down they go, swearing and cussing on the way down.

Cannot help myself!

I wish I could F myself.........it would so much easier.....just saying!


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> As evidenced by both Canshoot's and Alexm's story, another part of my advice, (ignore my advise, acquired by years of experience with women, at your own peril) is once a woman puts you down, don't ever go back unless you're sure you can overlook the fact that you're probably not her first choice i she had her way. Better yet, save yourself some misery and don't go back at all.


I agree.

But he did go back. 

And had babies with her.

And she showed love for him at the beginning.

And she still shows him love.

People evolve.

People change.

People mature.

Weil..............some do not........... do these things. 

No-body is immaculate, without fault. No Crow-Magnums have wings and a Harp.

Would the evidence on the MSN tape or 720K Floppy Disk bother me? Oh, yeah. But looking at the hordes of mentally flat-lined Earthlings bothers me too. I shove the bad juju out of my mind. I love life and a lot of people. 

The rest? If I allow them, they hurt my brain.........what's left of it. Whap, whap... out they go from my punkin-head.

Me? I was an angry youth, an explosive wayward bully. A medium sized Rooster.

At 21, and after a tour in Vietnam, I was tamed and poi-fect.

Well, close........no cigars.......never took up tow-backy. Interferes with long distance running.

To my many *and new *detractors....*lighten up....this is sarcasm*..........fired off from my discriminate Blunderbuss. It strikes all......harms none. That is the hope...for the hopeful and hopeless.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> To my many *and new *detractors....*lighten up....this is sarcasm*..........fired off from my discriminate Blunderbuss. It strikes all......harms none. That is the hope...for the hopeful and hopeless.


The thing I've always tried to instill on my many young "grasshoppers" over the years is that when a 16-24 year old chick breaks up with you after a time of steady dating, it usually means she wants to explore new territory. Everybody has the prerogative to decide themselves if the chick is responsible for willingly being forthcoming about her exploits or the man's naivete about women the source of difficulties. In short and in virtually all cases, when a chick ditches you, either temporarily or for all time, her interest in you has depreciated and/or she wants to date other guys. If she tells you anything else, she's not being truthful.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

bigfoot said:


> Great on going straight with the conversation, now drop it. Seriously, you were bf and gf. That is competition time. She owed you loyalty, true. You guys broke up. True. Shyt happens. You got back together. You got married.
> 
> I view dating like competition. You both were competing for the other. You won, she won. Unlike in marriage where yiu have a vow of fidelity, there is none in dating.
> 
> ...


We must be reading different threads.

For me the issue is her intentional lying. That's it. She proved herself a liar, not worthy of trust. She is UNtrustworthy. If she would lie about this stuff to his face back then and, apparently, still today, then how can OP be confident she can be trusted into the future? No trust, no marriage.

This isn't about her dumping him for another guy. This is about her lying about it then and now.


----------



## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Materiality matters. Its not like she screwed her way across europe with multiple men. Assuming numbers mattered.

She had, possibly, a relationship with another guy. Did his wife lie about having a boyfriend when they were not married? That, in my opinion, is such a ridiculous issue that it boggles the mind.

If its ownership of her and he wants a clean title, then it matters. If its about honesty, well, it was an old boyfriend, so none of his business, unless he owns her. BTW, i dont condone ownership of women.

If it's about honesty, how can you or he say she is lying? It is like the Salem witch trials. The accusation is enough. You either die by the trials or confess and get executed. She denied it being anything. Now what?

Maybe look the guy up, confront him about long ago crap, tell him to stay away from the woman he's had no contact with for years and then demand she help him heal from the fact that she once had a boyfriend before they were married? 

I'm reading the same thread and still see it as nothing to worry about or question or investigate or keep prying or anything.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

bigfoot said:


> Materiality matters. Its not like she screwed her way across europe with multiple men. Assuming numbers mattered.
> 
> She had, possibly, a relationship with another guy. Did his wife lie about having a boyfriend when they were not married? That, in my opinion, is such a ridiculous issue that it boggles the mind.
> 
> ...


Who has said this is about her numbers or that she was some kind of hoe screwing her way across continents? Nowhere in this thread.

She had. Not "possibly", she did, in fact, have a relationship with this other guy. OG may have been an OM. I, in my opinion, believe that there is a requirement for fidelity within an exclusive dating relationship. The cool thing about dating is that you haven't yet said "until death do us part", so one is always free to call off the dating relationship at any moment for any reason. That's ok. What isn't ok is screwing some OG while OP believes he is in an exclusive relationship. If she developed romantic feelings for OG while dating, and if she expressed those feelings to OG, yeah she crossed a line, but she did end up doing the right thing by breaking up with OP.

If she had never gotten back with OP, no foul for breaking up with him to go explore OG.

But when they got back together and in response to a direct question, she lied to OP about OG. That there is a lie and makes her dishonest. Why did she do it? The only reason I can think of was to control OP to keep him from possibly leaving the renewed relationship. She always had the option of saying "none of your business, you don't own me and have no right to any information about me". And then OP could make whatever choice he wanted.

How can anyone say she is lying? OP reports that the email clearly shows she lied. It clearly shows a timeline extending from prior to their initial breakup through her period of living with OG and then after that. He reports she said unambiguously she did not have any relationships during the breakup. Her emails also contradict what she told OP about her emotional attachment to him during the breakup. To me those facts show she intentionally lied to OP in those conversations as well as recently when he asked her about the emails.

Now what? She either shows concern or she doesn't. She either recognizes trust has been damaged or she doesn't. She either cares to work constructively with OP to get past this or she doesn't.

Unfortunately for those of us who have discovered long hidden lies in our marriages, you don't just "get over it". Now that the cat is out of the bag it has to be dealt with. OP can either find a way to heal the marriage or he can accept that his wife is quite capable of lying to him _in order to control his decisions_ and proceed in the marriage with that.

His wife can either be openly honest with him going forward, or not.

I've posted several viable paths to deal with the situation which do not require her to acknowledge she lied or to agree on his version of events. If OP can come to believe she is now and will remain honest then it is relatively easy to let this past lie go. This isn't a witch trial.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Our man Canshoot needs to come back an answer some questions. He sez he discovered this C/D made10 years ago. By his own timeline, their history goes back about 10 years, (2 years dating, over a year hiatus with getting MBA and eventually getting back together, another year of dating, and 6 years of marriage). My question is when was the C/D made relative to their on again, off again relationship, how old is this information on the C/D, and did he glean all the info about the other cat (professing love, moving into his apartment, the former GF coming back into the picture, etc.) off the C/D. Since she and Canshoot dated 2 years prior to her moving to the U.S., it appears the information on the C/D is older than the initial breakup (roughly 8 years ago by my mental calculation) so the information about what occurred during their hiatus couldn't have come from the C/D. Where am I going wrong?


----------



## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

@Thor, you may need to re-read my point that you quoted. I was simply pointing out that past relationships do cause problems when the issue is "what is your number" of prior sexual partners. I actually said, "its NOT like she..." That example was only if his real issue was that she had any prior sexual partners. It was just an aside. Pump the brakes.

As to honesty, well, I'm still not getting a clear picture on his timeline and her denials. I think Vlad hit it right when he started doing the numbers. I'm also curious about his wife backing up chats to a a CD in the first instance. Was that a thing back then? Actually, I have lots of questions about how he found the disc, what prompted him to load it up, search it, how many logs did he have to read, and all of those logistics. 

Bottom line for me, and YMMV, but if she lied about dating a guy at least 10 years ago, when they were broken up, then they have a whole bunch of issues. I'm not convinced that his time line even jibes with what he claims to have found.

I agree that fidelity is part of a committed relationship; however, what level of commitment did they have at the time under the circumstances? Was it more one sided? Why would she have kept the logs in the first place? Too many questions, I may have to bow out of this one.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Personal said:


> While some other people keep all sorts of stuff that is and isn't of value, simply because they can't be bothered going through it all to determine what to keep or throw out.
> 
> I've also got CD's full of stuff from the past that I haven't gone through, one day perhaps when I have the time and or feel so inclined.
> 
> That said no one should feel obliged to throw out their past, lest they upset someone with a terribly fragile ego.


Yep, this.

When I started dating my ex wife, many moons ago, she made me throw out a shoebox full of things I wanted to keep, simply for historical purposes. This include concert tickets, and other assorted scrapbook-type items, as well as photos and yes, letters, from my ex-gf - who was my first. I did not hide them away somewhere. Up until she asked me to toss them, I genuinely did not see the harm in it. She explained why, and I understood. To me, it was a historical record of my life, things I'd like looking back on in 30, 50, 70 years, should I live that long.

To this day, I do not regret throwing some of those things out, however I do wish I didn't. There was nothing inappropriate or sexual in those items. They were things I'd have shown my kids and grandkids.

My wife has her prom photos in an album. She and I dated for a few years back then, we broke up a few months before prom, and she went with somebody else. Seeing those photos saddened me. BUT, that was part of her history. However, there were a few pictures of her prom date shirtless, with her hands on his chest... and I drew that line. Those photos are now no longer part of the album - even though the rest do not illicit a positive response in me, either. But that's not my past, my history - it's hers.

Anyway, my point is that there is always a fine line between keeping things from one's past for legitimate reasons (simply personal history) and keeping things to transport ones self back to more exciting times. VERY fine line. And it's the ego that allows that line to blur.

For OP's wife, burning a CD of text transcripts from a summer fling - who otherwise turned out to be an a-hole - that's ego. That, to me, is wanting to remember the hot guy who showed her some lust - which made her feel good.

Straight up, my story (as outlined in this post a few pages back) was similar, again. The guy my now wife dated the week after she broke up with me - not at all like me. "Better". Most of her friends thought he was hot and wanted to date him. To an 18 year old girl, that's a massive ego booster. The guy all her friends wanted to date and thought was hot, wanted to date HER. At 18 (or 20, or 22), that's generally how those things go - guy or girl. It's about the ego.

So this is very likely what happened to OP. After dating for a couple of years, some guy comes along who was (probably) better looking, and more exciting. She, like my wife/then girlfriend, was at a transitional period of her life. Going to college, moving out, etc etc etc. And new guy came along right at that time. But they key is, this was probably a guy she didn't expect to show any interest in her. C'est la vie.

My wife dated this guy for maybe 2 months, and she figured out quickly that just because he's sought-after by other people doesn't make him a good match for her. She dumped his ass.

Was it a mistake on her part to do any of that? Honestly, no. How she handled it with me at that time - yes. She admits to that. But it's part of growth, of gaining experience, of learning how to handle things and how not to handle things. All these years later (~20), she felt bad about it. Not breaking up with me, but HOW she did it, and WHY. But I don't hold it against her.

Again, the similarity that I see is that this guy came along before she broke up with me. He clearly showed interest in her, and that made her feel good. So she made a decision. Did they conspire to get together while she was still with me? No, I don't believe so, nor does any evidence point towards that. But it was clear, even now, that I was cast aside at that time for that purpose. From the sounds of it, OP's situation was similar. It doesn't sound like there was any cheating (per se) going on - just a chemistry. It's not on the up-and-up, no, and in each case, somebody else came along during a relationship, which generated an overlap, but, frankly, it happens - particularly at that age.

Is she in the clear for doing that? No. Is it her fault that somebody came along and showed her interest? No. Right place, right time for him. If his (and my) relationship was great, solid and had a viable future, it wouldn't have happened. But it did. My wife (then girlfriend) decided she didn't see a future with me. Whether it took that guy coming along to make her realize this or not, is irrelevant IMO.

And after all that, both women realized at some point, that their future WAS with us. That's not a bad thing.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

alexm said:


> For OP's wife, burning a CD of text transcripts from a summer fling - who otherwise turned out to be an a-hole - that's ego. That, to me, is wanting to remember the hot guy who showed her some lust - which made her feel good.


I don't really understand the process here, and I wish OP would come back to explain what else may have been on the CD, what other CDs she had with stuff backed up on them, etc. How did he come across it?

I have never archived messages, emails, etc independently anywhere. I have made backup CDs on old computers back before cheap external hard drives existed, but for things like family pictures and tax returns. It would take me some time to figure out how to extract emails off of online email servers to put them on a CD.

Anyhow, I find this archiving of emails/messages a bit odd. Maybe I'm just of the wrong age or demographic.




alexm said:


> Anyway, my point is that there is always a fine line between keeping things from one's past for legitimate reasons (simply personal history) and keeping things to transport ones self back to more exciting times. VERY fine line. And it's the ego that allows that line to blur.


Yeah this is a complex issue really. My stbxw has her senior prom picture in a shoe box in the closet. I don't think she ever looked at it, and I never heard her say good things about that bf even though she must have felt something for him while they were dating. It certainly never bothered me that she kept it. When unpacking into my new home here I came across my prom picture. It does remind me of fun times but in a general way, with all my friends and the things we did in high school. My girlfriend was a first class soul, and so were her parents, but truly we would never be a match. I don't look at it longing to be back with that gf or contrasting her with stbxw.

I suppose we are at risk of the EA kind of rationalization with our own memorabilia, discounting our reasons for keeping it. The more specific the memory is to something romantic or sexual perhaps the more dangerous it is to keep. And these history artifacts should mostly be packed away rather than be in plain view.

The flip side is how do we interpret and deal with our spouse's memorabilia? The context and circumstances surrounding OP and this CD are not clear to me.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> I have never archived messages, emails, etc independently anywhere. I have made backup CDs on old computers back before cheap external hard drives existed, but for things like family pictures and tax returns. It would take me some time to figure out how to extract emails off of online email servers to put them on a CD.


 @Thor - If you use something like Outlook, or another email client, on your computer, you can set it up so that it downloads your email messages from your online account as they come in. I never go out to my google or other email accounts online - all my mail comes into Outlook where I can do whatever I want with it and it's there forever on my hard drive. Then, when I'm backing up everything else on my hard drive, it backs up the emails in my Outlook files, too. Comes in handy when transferring files to a new laptop, as well as all the other reasons backing up your files is important.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

norajane said:


> @Thor - If you use something like Outlook, or another email client, on your computer, you can set it up so that it downloads your email messages from your online account as they come in. I never go out to my google or other email accounts online - all my mail comes into Outlook where I can do whatever I want with it and it's there forever on my hard drive. Then, when I'm backing up everything else on my hard drive, it backs up the emails in my Outlook files, too. Comes in handy when transferring files to a new laptop, as well as all the other reasons backing up your files is important.


I use Apple's Mail program. It does have an option to put some or all emails on my computer. But until recently I just accessed my emails using the online websites due to all the travel I do. Now that things sync nicely over the cloud I can use the client app. Honestly there are basically zero emails I need to keep permanently. Important things such as a stock purchase gets printed out and put into a physical file folder.

I figure anything online can disappear at any moment if a company goes out of business, or it can be hacked and stolen.

However, I have never pulled my emails into a segregated backup. I've never popped a CD into the drive and copied emails specifically to it. Like I said, it would take me some effort to figure out where those files are on my hard drive and then write them to a CD. Which leads to my conclusion OP's wife must have put some effort into this endeavor, and thus there was some emotional attachment to keeping the emails. But I'd like more context and detail about how he found the CD, what else may have been on it, and what other things she may have saved onto CDs before I jump to conclusions.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Thor said:


> I use Apple's Mail program. It does have an option to put some or all emails on my computer. But until recently I just accessed my emails using the online websites due to all the travel I do.  Now that things sync nicely over the cloud I can use the client app. Honestly there are basically zero emails I need to keep permanently. Important things such as a stock purchase gets printed out and put into a physical file folder.
> 
> I figure anything online can disappear at any moment if a company goes out of business, or it can be hacked and stolen.
> 
> However, I have never pulled my emails into a segregated backup. I've never popped a CD into the drive and copied emails specifically to it. Like I said, it would take me some effort to figure out where those files are on my hard drive and then write them to a CD. Which leads to my conclusion OP's wife must have put some effort into this endeavor, and thus there was some emotional attachment to keeping the emails. But I'd like more context and detail about how he found the CD, what else may have been on it, and what other things she may have saved onto CDs before I jump to conclusions.


This is 10 years or so ago (maybe 9, maybe 8...). Back ups were done on CD's for the most part. The Cloud didn't exist, USB drives weren't generally large enough to store huge amounts of data, and they were likely using Windows XP or Vista.

My guess is that it was a backup CD of everything of hers, possibly from a shared computer (with OP), in order to transfer files to a new PC (her own). Or just simply a new PC, period.

I believe OP said the chat was through IM (MSN), not email. If I recall, logging messages was the default, and would save as .txt files in a folder somewhere.

Therefore, when backing up, say, an entire hard drive of files, those would have been copied as well.

So to have a back up CD that _contained_ these chats would not be out of the ordinary. It certainly would be if those were the only things on the CD, though, but I don't get that impression.

As well, to actually still have that CD isn't out of the question, either. Remember (for those of us old enough to), it wasn't out of the ordinary for us to have multitudes of CD's (and before that, floppy discs) of back ups, photos, you name it. I'm still finding the odd CD of photos around the house. That was once the only way to safely store things, should your computer implode.

So a back up CD that contains MSN chat logs is definitely not out of the ordinary. Why OP felt the need to go through them, is. I don't fault him, I've done the same thing before I've thrown away CD's, but it wasn't his.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

alexm said:


> This is 10 years or so ago (maybe 9, maybe 8...). Back ups were done on CD's for the most part. The Cloud didn't exist, USB drives weren't generally large enough to store huge amounts of data, and they were likely using Windows XP or Vista.
> 
> My guess is that it was a backup CD of everything of hers, possibly from a shared computer (with OP), in order to transfer files to a new PC (her own). Or just simply a new PC, period.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's what I would do once in a while on the old computer before we had a decent external hard drive solution. I used ZIP drives and CDRs. I would go in and copy the photos folder and the documents folder. There was no reason to back up programs (apps as we now call them, ugh), and no space to just back up everything.

If I wanted to save chats or emails it would have taken some research to find them, and a specific action to copy them to the CD. So, again, it seems OP's wife made some special effort to save these chats or messages, whatever the right term is for what she had.

Unlike today where our backups are behind the scenes onto external hard drives or even to the cloud where everything is saved en masse. My backup drive is multiple times larger than my internal hard drive and it saves everything.

Also, OP stated the CD had a smilie face drawn on it. So I would sure like to know what else was on that CD. Was it just her chats or messages to this other guy? Or was it part of a larger systematic backup she did and not something special? And how did he come across the CD and then read the messages?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

alexm said:


> As well, to actually still have that CD isn't out of the question, either. Remember (for those of us old enough to), it wasn't out of the ordinary for us to have multitudes of CD's (and before that, floppy discs) of back ups, photos, you name it. I'm still finding the odd CD of photos around the house. That was once the only way to safely store things, should your computer implode.


I've got a box full of those old CDs here to go through. I have transferred all the photos to the new computer hard drive and it is now backed up on 2 external drives. I'm guessing those old CDs are going to end up in the trash if/when I ever get to looking through them.

Friends of ours have lost their entire family photo collection not once, not twice, but *three* times due to hard drive crashes! They learn slowly I guess. Most of our pics are on film, as one of my old hobbies was photography. Really only the last 10 years have been electronic cameras for unimportant snapshot pics. Important pics have still been film (graduations, etc).

So now I have boxes full of prints where we sent the best photos to parents/grandparents and only have the negatives left. One of these days I'll get all those scanned and organized and reprinted.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Thor said:


> I wish OP would come back to explain what else may have been on the CD, what other CDs she had with stuff backed up on them, etc.


Reconciling his comments about getting the stuff from a C/D that's as old as his initial relationship makes me wonder if we ain't been


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

This was a red-meat topic which always makes me cautious from the get-go.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Thor said:


> Yeah, that's what I would do once in a while on the old computer before we had a decent external hard drive solution. I used ZIP drives and CDRs. I would go in and copy the photos folder and the documents folder. There was no reason to back up programs (apps as we now call them, ugh), and no space to just back up everything.
> 
> If I wanted to save chats or emails it would have taken some research to find them, and a specific action to copy them to the CD. So, again, it seems OP's wife made some special effort to save these chats or messages, whatever the right term is for what she had.
> 
> ...



You're not wrong.

That said, it's not out of the ordinary to have had a CD back up of the entire contents of one's hard drive. I've certainly done it in the past when transferring computers. An entire 'documents' folder, for example.

My point was more that these weren't emails, they were MSN chat logs - files that actually existed in soft copy on one's hard drive, and can easily be transferred to a back up without a second thought. Whereas with emails, one would have had to purposefully go through some steps to have back up copies.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

VladDracul said:


> Reconciling his comments about getting the stuff from a C/D that's as old as his initial relationship makes me wonder if we ain't been


Maybe, maybe not.

I find what happens so often on TAM is some noobie comes in with a question, looking for advice, then the thread explodes to encompass pages of 'what-if's' and us folks deconstructing every tiny little thing. It ends up looking like the Warren Commission with multiple scenarios and differing opinions and flow charts. And on occasion, I'm sure, the OP ends up thinking that other people are more invested in his/her issue than they are.

TAM's not for everyone.

I actually recommended TAM to a friend a few months ago who is going through a helluva time in her marriage. She lurked for a couple of days, then decided "nope". She simply didn't have the time to check in multiple times per day, as she saw many posts that jumped quickly to 10, 20+ pages in a matter of a day or two.


----------

