# Cause for concern? Wife and a male workout partner.



## KJ_Simmons

The last year has seen our marriage come to the brink of separation. Loss of intimacy, communication, and some love.

My wife has been running into a mutual male friend at the gym a couple times a week for the past several months and they even take fitness classes together. She has mentioned this casually but I never made anything out of it. Then one day out of the blue she tells me they are going to begin working out together, because I "don't workout with her". 

She is the type to get very jealous and confrontational if I even speak to another woman casually, but she found it ok to exchange numbers with him via text so they can setup training sessions.

I believe in the whole "if you love them, let them go" philosophy, so I said go ahead but to just be careful because of the state of our relationship and her vulnerability. I also brought up the point that she would be furious if the shoe were on the other foot, and that maybe she needs to be more trusting of me in return.

I'm pretty sure she confided in one of her friends for advice, and she came to me to tell me that she decided against it because she wouldn't want me to do the same thing. But the same day, she got very upset and said we need to talk and that she can't go into the new year continuing the way we are.

So talk we did. We had some very frank and open conversations and resolved alot of issues and resentments. We've seen a complete 180 turnaround in our marriage and it feels like another honeymoon period. :smthumbup:

Last night, however, she comes home from the gym and mentioned running into this guy again, and told me about the conversation they had and how he complimented her looks. I'm glad she feels she can tell me that, and I'm happy for her when somebody compliments her, but my gut still doesn't sit right on this whole situation.

They aren't friends on Facebook, but she is friends with all of his/our other mutual friends. I don't think she has cheated on me, but I sense some lingering attraction here and her still being pulled down that slippery slope. What happens when this new honeymoon period is over and we experience the inevitable bumps? Is this workout thing going to rear its head again because she does have my permission after all. I also wonder what impact this whole situation had on her wanting to talk and fix our relationship.

Do I need to be concerned? I hate to bring it up with her, because we have moved on from so much of the negativity of the past and I'd hate to ruin our momentum if my concerns are unfounded. What do you all think?


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## D.H Mosquito

Be very concerned flattering her seeing in her tight/skimpy gym gear he has already bedded her in his minds eye and now that's what he's going to do if you don't act


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Do you compliment her? She may have been saying that as a way to ask you to do it more.

Are you able to work out with her? Go running with her? Sounds like she needs to keep away from this guy because it can turn into an affair quickly. Going with her would help keep her away from him, plus show him that he is off limits. Not to mention, spend more time together. 

Keeping up with the honeymoon time, make sure you're both still doing the work. Maybe sit down once a month for one of those talks, see what has been good, what needs repair.


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## ReidWright

sounds too close for comfort. If she told you he complimented her looks, it's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

do you belong to this gym?

you might want to show up and do a bit of c-blocking.


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## wilson

She needs to pick another gym. Every time she sees him, the feelings will come back. Even if she doesn't see him, the gym will remind her of him. Every time she uses the same machine as before, she'll remember him. Every time she's in a class they took together, she'll remember him.

Pick out a new gym and work out with her. She'll probably want to keep the old gym because it has the nice memories of him. Pick out a much nicer gym so that she's not upset about losing the other gym. Don't worry about the increased cost as the fallout of an affair is quite costly.

But in the bigger picture, you now know about this moral failing in her. It's like someone who robs banks when they are poor. Some people will never rob a bank no matter the circumstances, but others will. This is a lifelong issue and you will always have to be aware. Either make it a priority so that she feels loved and special or else deal with the consequences. 

Furthermore, some people are addicted the the "new relationship". They need the intense feelings that new love brings. It may be difficult for them to be monogamous long term since those feelings fade. These kinds of people may not be suited to marriage since it's difficult and unlikely to be in that state for decades.

What's your history together? Age? How long have you known her and been married? Kids?


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## straightshooter

*I believe in the whole "if you love them, let them go" philosophy*

Well, if you are so locked in to that philosophy, not sure why you are here??? 

It appears your wifes friends gave her some good advice or someone told her it was not a great idea to be spending all this workout time alone with another man without her husband there. She took the advice and you should be telling her you agree it is not a good idea, and his comment about her looks reinforces that. 

Do not be lulled to sleep by her telling you what he said. that is a common tactic of those in affairs, namely to be transparent enough to disarm the spouse like it is all innocent.

if you do some reading, many of the books on infidelity will tell you that aside from the workplace, one of the other major "breeding grounds" for infidelity are activities that take one spouse away from the other with members of the opposite sex where comraderie and emotional support ( running through the pain) build emotional bonds between those in the group.

That is why you see a lot of affairs starting up where one spouse goes to triathalons, or marathons, or crossfit events on a week end overnight. After the event, all these folks emotionally tied to the sacrifices of training are now partying with one another.

So you are right, this is a slippery slope. married women should not be spending hours running with one man without their husband around. next it will be lunch after the run, then drinks, and you know the rest. There has to be women she can find to run with.

So yes you should be concerned and unless you are prepared for this slippery slope to get more slippery, you need to make that clear, especially when it seems she does have friends who have some sense telling her the same thing.


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## KJ_Simmons

Thanks guys. We've been together for 20 years since high school, married the last 5, one beautiful child.

The compliments have been flowing nicely since our reconciliation. Mind-blowing $ex. More in the past 2 weeks than in the previous 3 months combined. She does genuinely seem alot happier, and so am I. We have gone hiking together and done a yoga class as well. So I'm making the effort. But she doesn't seem interested in doing either again. Has turned down encore requests. Hooked on that class.

I personally am turned off by outwards acts of jealousy and insecurity (she used to do it to me all the time), so I have concerns about showing up with her and c-blocking. Don't want to be what I despise. Maybe there comes a point when my personal threshold is crossed though.

Great idea on the periodic checkup talks. We will definitely be doing this and this would be a good time to bring up my concerns if they keep growing.


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## happy as a clam

KJ_Simmons said:


> I personally am turned off by outwards acts of jealousy and insecurity (she used to do it to me all the time), so I have concerns about showing up with her and c-blocking. Don't want to be what I despise. *Maybe there comes a point when my personal threshold is crossed though.*


Umm... yeah. Now would be that point. Show up at the gym.


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## wilson

KJ_Simmons said:


> I personally am turned off by outwards acts of jealousy and insecurity (she used to do it to me all the time), so I have concerns about showing up with her and c-blocking. Don't want to be what I despise. Maybe there comes a point when my personal threshold is crossed though.


Actually, that is not a good long-term solution. Don't think that the problem is this particular guy. This guy is just a guy like any other. If you block him, there are millions of other handsome, sensitive, attentive guys to take his place. Furthermore, she may actually enjoy the confrontational aspect. It's good for her ego to be fought over by two men at once. Unless you're going to follow her around to c-block every guy, you need a more workable solution.

To move forward, she has to leave this gym and not be around this guy anymore to clear her head. That's just the first step to move forward. If she stays at the gym or stays in contact with the guy, you'll be stuck here and things will likely get worse.


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## ReidWright

C0ckblocking doesn't mean fighting the guy! it means showing your face at the gym, giving her a little peck on the cheek before going to your workout area, etc. He's a mutual 'friend'? go ask him about his dating life / wife, whatever. Don't threaten anyone, just show them you're still in the picture, and that's she's not available.

if this guy has some designs on your wife, don't let him have all her undivided attention all the time.

sounds like he crossed the line with her if he's telling her how good she looks....maybe a fitness test from her, she wants you to pay attention to what's happening.


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## straightshooter

Why is using common sense that even her girlfriends have told her C- Blocking????

Why is preferring her to train PRIVATELY with a woman and not alone with a man who is complimenting her on her looks C- Blocking.??

Buddy, I think you have a way too broad definition here and it bothered you enough to post here on this forum.

You do not want to get a real nasty surprise "when it crosses your threshold".

Stop playing "mr Enlightened" and be 'Mr. Not Be Asleep At The Switch". The pain is much less.


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## TRy

KJ_Simmons said:


> Last night, however, she comes home from the gym and mentioned running into this guy again, and told me about the conversation they had and how he complimented her looks.


 Since she was dressed in gym cloth, he was complementing how she looked and not her dress.


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## ReidWright

TRy said:


> Since she was dressed in gym cloth, he was complementing how she looked and not her dress.


yeah, imagine it the other way, OP. Some woman tells YOU how good you are looking at the gym. Would that seem perfectly normal to you? 

Would you go home and tell your wife, "that friend of ours told me how good I looked!"

your wife wanted a reaction or was trying to get your tacit approval that his flirting is ok


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## TRy

straightshooter said:


> *I believe in the whole "if you love them, let them go" philosophy*
> 
> Well, if you are so locked in to that philosophy, not sure why you are here???
> 
> It appears your wifes friends gave her some good advice or someone told her it was not a great idea to be spending all this workout time alone with another man without her husband there. She took the advice and you should be telling her you agree it is not a good idea, and his comment about her looks reinforces that.


 Her freinds have more common sense than the OP. I call bull on the whole "if you love them, let them go" garbage. If you love them you marry them and agree to be bound by your marriage vows which includes not letting anyone come between you. If the OP's other man (OM) did not think that the OP's wife was attractive, I doubt that he would have asked for her number so that they could regularly work out together one on one, and perhaps go for a bite or coffee afterwards. 

Dating is seeing someone of the opposite sex that you find attractive for the purpose of getting to know them better, and for the purpose of having the opportunity to bond with them. Studies show that most dates do not include sex, and that many dates do not even include kissing. Thus the OP's wife regularly seeing a member of the opposite sex one on one, that is not a friend of the marriage, that has let it be known that they are attracted to the OP's wife, would be called dating.


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## gouge_away

Dude, get off your fat @$$ and work out with your wife.

Then instead of whining about how some bigger better looking guy is grabbing your wife's attention, you could be grabbing some of your own. FFS.

Guy wants to f your wife, clearly, anybody can see that, even your wife knows that... She likes the attention because her husband obviously could care less that she's at the gym alone, oh wait, not alone, but you get the point.

"Giggity Giggity!"


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## tech-novelist

Yes, you are right to be concerned. This is a very common way that affairs start.

Listen to the posters here. They know what they are talking about.


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## 225985

I (married) used to work out with an attractive co-worker (single). The gym was located close to our office and we went during lunch hour. Working out make you feel good (positive endorphins?), attractive and confident. Nearly all the other posters said that you should be concerned. You really should be. I had to stop my activity with the woman for that reason.


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## Lostme

I agree with some of the others, start going with her to work out. Since she does not want to do the hiking or yoga again, go workout with her and see what she likes about it so much. It doesn't hurt to ask to join her on one of these work outs, her response and actions will tell you a lot of what you need to know.


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## Marc878

There is a difference between controlling and having good boundaries which all GOOD marriages have.

@ 80% of affairs start off as friendships. Tell her to nix it. 

You need activities together so go with her some.

Pushing his azz away now will be a lot easier than fighting for your marriage later. If you're smart.

Don't worry about making her mad. If the shoe was on the other foot you'd catch hell, right?


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## See_Listen_Love

KJ_Simmons said:


> Thanks guys. We've been together for 20 years since high school, married the last 5, one beautiful child.
> 
> *The compliments have been flowing nicely since our reconciliation. Mind-blowing $ex. More in the past 2 weeks than in the previous 3 months combined. She does genuinely seem alot happier,* and so am I. We have gone hiking together and done a yoga class as well. So I'm making the effort. But she doesn't seem interested in doing either again. Has turned down encore requests. Hooked on that class.
> 
> I personally am turned off by outwards acts of jealousy and insecurity (she used to do it to me all the time), so I have concerns about showing up with her and c-blocking. Don't want to be what I despise. Maybe there comes a point when my personal threshold is crossed though.
> 
> Great idea on the periodic checkup talks. We will definitely be doing this and this would be a good time to bring up my concerns if they keep growing.


This reminds me of many stories where the woman is very infatuated with the whole situation around the OM. She is excited and you benefit with mind blowing sex.

The next step in those cases is she fall in love with OM and because of that you will get only obligated sex, or none at all. That is when she will start having sex with OM.

But the damage is already done long before that...


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## See_Listen_Love

KJ_Simmons said:


> Last night, however, she comes home from the gym and mentioned running into this guy again, and told me about the conversation they had and how he complimented her looks.


Another earlier red flag, testing the waters to see how you react. Very common. Later they do not mention it anymore. This alone is not decisive, but in combination with the sex thing: Clearly an EA, possibly going into PA. Or already gone to that.


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## Buddy400

KJ_Simmons said:


> The last year has seen our marriage come to the brink of separation. Loss of intimacy, communication, and some love.
> 
> My wife has been running into a mutual male friend at the gym a couple times a week for the past several months and they even take fitness classes together. She has mentioned this casually but I never made anything out of it. Then one day out of the blue she tells me they are going to begin working out together, because I "don't workout with her".
> 
> She is the type to get very jealous and confrontational if I even speak to another woman casually, but she found it ok to exchange numbers with him via text so they can setup training sessions.
> 
> I believe in the whole "if you love them, let them go" philosophy, so I said go ahead but to just be careful because of the state of our relationship and her vulnerability. I also brought up the point that she would be furious if the shoe were on the other foot, and that maybe she needs to be more trusting of me in return.
> 
> I'm pretty sure she confided in one of her friends for advice, and she came to me to tell me that she decided against it because she wouldn't want me to do the same thing. But the same day, she got very upset and said we need to talk and that she can't go into the new year continuing the way we are.
> 
> So talk we did. We had some very frank and open conversations and resolved alot of issues and resentments. We've seen a complete 180 turnaround in our marriage and it feels like another honeymoon period. :smthumbup:
> 
> Last night, however, she comes home from the gym and mentioned running into this guy again, and told me about the conversation they had and how he complimented her looks. I'm glad she feels she can tell me that, and I'm happy for her when somebody compliments her, but my gut still doesn't sit right on this whole situation.
> 
> They aren't friends on Facebook, but she is friends with all of his/our other mutual friends. I don't think she has cheated on me, but I sense some lingering attraction here and her still being pulled down that slippery slope. What happens when this new honeymoon period is over and we experience the inevitable bumps? Is this workout thing going to rear its head again because she does have my permission after all. I also wonder what impact this whole situation had on her wanting to talk and fix our relationship.
> 
> Do I need to be concerned? I hate to bring it up with her, because we have moved on from so much of the negativity of the past and I'd hate to ruin our momentum if my concerns are unfounded. What do you all think?


She just sees the guy at the gym right? She isn't having training sessions with her and working out together as originally planned, right? 

Hmmm... I'll go against the grain here and say "let it slide" Her reconsidering working out with him and the turn around in your marriage are good signs. However, it would be good to pay attention to texts, phone calls and unexplained absences. 

Also it's probably a good idea to toss out a playful "remember the rule; no fvcking guys you meet at the gym, I know you're smokin' hot, but rules are rules" once or twice. If she mentions other men complimenting her, playfully say "yeh, Susan at work told me I have a great ass, it's hard to keep people off you when you're as attractive as we are." But remember, this is done light heartedly.


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## jsmart

gouge_away said:


> Dude, get off your fat @$$ and work out with your wife.
> 
> Then instead of whining about how some bigger better looking guy is grabbing your wife's attention, you could be grabbing some of your own. FFS.
> 
> Guy wants to f your wife, clearly, anybody can see that, even your wife knows that... She likes the attention because her husband obviously could care less that she's at the gym alone, oh wait, not alone, but you get the point.
> 
> "Giggity Giggity!"


I Agree 100% .

You are way to passive. This dude wants to bang your wife. Even her friends know this is wrong and you want to be Mr I'm not Controlling. This dude is busting the move. The hot sex is because this guy is firing up her desire. You keep doing what you're doing and soon he'll be getting that hot sex and you'll be getting a b!tchy attitude and occasional duty sex. 

Find a different gym and go TOGETHER or go to this gym WITH her and make this douche understand with your presence that you're her man. 

You DEFINITELY don't want her working on getting hot, with another man guiding and complimenting her while you stagnate.


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## tom67

See_Listen_Love said:


> Another earlier red flag, testing the waters to see how you react. Very common. Later they do not mention it anymore. This alone is not decisive, but in combination with the sex thing: Clearly an EA, possibly going into PA. Or already gone to that.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

It's a sh!t test.

Tell her very plainly but to the point she can work out with him all she wants, just not as your wife.

Then go out for the night and don't answer her calls.


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## straightshooter

OP

Notice something here. NONE of the responses you have gotten from total strangers say this is NOTHING to be concerned about. And my guess is if you get 100 responses less than 10 of them will tell you you are C Blocking or being a controlling pig of a husband

She liked the attention and basically bragged about it to you to see what your reaction would be. Your non reaction is the signal she does not have to shut it all down. 

Pretty soon when you become more uncomfortable she will insist they are "just friends". We all know what that means.

If you do not want to do the same training that is fine. No one is telling you to follow her like a puppy dog. Tell her to train her ass off but do it with lady friends. Last I heard there are women on this planet who love working out. And many health clubs have ladies only gym rooms ( not that that is necessary) but if does show that women do not need a penis around to get a good workout, unless the activity is something that would make you a hell of a lot less "comfortable".

And lastly, do not get deluded into thinking because she is giving you great sex that all is well. Women in torrid lust affairs are highly sexualized in some cases because of all the emotional excitement they are getting from anticipation of the hot sex with OM. 

I would advise you not to ignore everyone.


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## Buddy400

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> It's a sh!t test.
> 
> Tell her very plainly but to the point she can work out with him all she wants, just not as your wife.
> 
> Then go out for the night and don't answer her calls.


The first sh!t test was telling him that she was going to work out with this guy. He objected, she backed down.

Telling him about the compliment was another sh!t test. 

If he doesn't over-react, he wins that too.

I know how dangerous the "work out at the gym scenario" can be, but I'm just not as worried in this case as I would usually be.


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## ReidWright

straightshooter said:


> And lastly, do not get deluded into thinking because she is giving you great sex that all is well. Women in torrid lust affairs are highly sexualized in some cases because of all the emotional excitement they are getting from anticipation of the hot sex with OM.


or guilt. To 'make it up to you' she could be trying to make you happy.

I'd be aware of any change in the bedroom...more activity, or less all of a sudden


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## welldusted

Definitely think there's something to be seriously concerned about here. The fact that she said she worked out with him *because you don't* can only mean either (1) she is justifying to herself her attraction to him/making herself feel entitled, (2) she is testing you, or (3) some combo of both. 

I don't know if I agree with the strategy of just randomly showing up at the gym when she's there, could work, IDK. When I was in this situation once (guy at job), I made a point of showing my face and giving the guy a friendly "don't try ****" look, but I had a good justification for being there, whereas it sounds like you don't go to the gym.

Another alternative might be to offer to work out with her, see how she reacts. Still another alternative might be to just talk to her and tell her you're not comfortable with the relationship she has with this guy - he's complementing her looks, she's comparing him to you, it's not good. Depending on how fogged she is, this could go different ways. With my wife, although she was initially defensive, it ultimately helped keep the situation from getting out of hand, and also showed her that I gave a **** (which women actually like to see). I was sure I was right about the guy trying to get into her pants, I was firm about it, I did not back down. It kind of depends on the level of trust in your relationship to begin with and the stage of the situation with the other guy -- I caught it early and we already had an understanding about these kinds of relationships. 

Good luck! I know it's a ****ty situation, I've been there, but don't panic, just make sure you don't sleep on this. Take some action.


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## Evinrude58

Lostme said:


> I agree with some of the others, start going with her to work out. Since she does not want to do the hiking or yoga again, go workout with her and see what she likes about it so much. It doesn't hurt to ask to join her on one of these work outs, her response and actions will tell you a lot of what you need to know.


I think it's quite freaking obvious what she likes about it so much!

OP is above being jealous or controlling. I think he should continue in his flawless mindset of eliteness while his wife has fun "working out".

Sorry op, you can see what I really think you should do.
But I'm a simpleton who gets jealous and is possessive and controlling.
I wouldn't accept my wife having a make workout "friend". I'll bet if you offered to work out with her, you'd get ten reasons why she doesn't want you to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoneWithHurting

Shut it down NOW. And give your wife consequences for making you uncomfortable.


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## Decorum

We need a thread documenting all the "philosophies" that enable cheating.

This is one of the most common.

Your gut is screaming at you but you are seduced by a lovely philosophy. Polarized into inaction. Smh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## straightshooter

*Your gut is screaming at you but you are seduced by a lovely philosophy. Polarized into inaction. Smh.
Posted via Mobile Device*

There is an old saying "TRUST YOUR GUT " 

You ought to start going to the gym with her or running with her just to see if she suddenly loses her passion for it when poor boring hubby is her training partner. If she starts to make excuses why either that is not a good idea or your schedules will not permit it, that ought to tell you something.

And you need to read the book called "Not Just Friends" because if you keep sitting at home while she trains with her admirer you will be needing to use the information in there.


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## gouge_away

Sometimes I wish I had the motivation to work out... **** I'd exploit this alpha douche hitting on my woman as the best motive to get ripped...

My Divorce was working for me for awhile, then I quit giving a crap... Before I thought, I'll get all ripped, see her in court and make her crave me, now I could care less if she even shows up, so I quit lifting.

You have a good reason to work out, and I bet your wife will get all hot for you just seeing you lifting to push some guy off her... Just her seeing you go the extra mile to preserve her is gonna make her sweat....

Am I right?

"Giggity Giggity!"


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## person123

Start working out with her. Otherwise, this is just an affair waiting to happen.


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## jdawg2015

A new guy met during a relationship that she is having constant contact with and private messaging? You already know this needs to end immediately.

You've been with her 20 years. I would hope you're able to have frank conversations with her.

Tell her the contact with the work out partner far exceeds the amount of contact a married woman should be having with another man. You already let this go on too long already.

Tell her the guy is gone. Don't let her call you jealous or controlling. Your marriage is at stake here and hopefully you caught this before it got too far.

Start dating her again. Hit the gym and do things with her.


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## Satya

This is why I don't go to the gym. 

I don't want the attention. Your wife likes it and is trying to dread you with it. 

I have a home gym.


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## Thound

Sounds like as a mutual friend, he may have picked up on yalls relationship problems, and decided to target her hoping she was vulnerable. I don't think I would remain friends with him.


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## Thound

Satya said:


> This is why I don't go to the gym.
> 
> I don't want the attention. Your wife likes it and is trying to dread you with it.
> 
> I have a home gym.


So do we. It's great for hanging clothes on.


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## DayOne

I echo the advice of "get off your a$$" given above. Whether its to "get off your a$$" and get to the gym, or "get off your a$$" and save your marriage, or both. 

From what you've said is happening, I'd be concerned. Right now you're coming across as a beta male. Next stop, cuckold.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> It's a sh!t test.
> 
> Tell her very plainly but to the point she can work out with him all she wants, just not as your wife.
> 
> Then go out for the night and don't answer her calls.


This would just make me feel like my H didn't give a crap about me anyway and was probably getting some of his own on the side so it would drop enough care and love for him that I would be a lot more vulnerable to run to some other guy, who is treating me nicely.

OP- Doing what you guys are doing by building up your marriage at home is the way to go, don't blow it up with silly games like this. If you wouldn't want her to brush off what you're saying and then take off for the night, don't do it to her. Stuff like this just turns into a war.

She was lacking attention and compliments from you, she got some from someone else and it felt good, she told you. Now you know what she needs, take her out, have fun together. Don't let things slide back into where they were.


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## tom67

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This would just make me feel like my H didn't give a crap about me anyway and was probably getting some of his own on the side so it would drop enough care and love for him that I would be a lot more vulnerable to run to some other guy, who is treating me nicely.
> 
> OP- Doing what you guys are doing by building up your marriage at home is the way to go, don't blow it up with silly games like this. If you wouldn't want her to brush off what you're saying and then take off for the night, don't do it to her. Stuff like this just turns into a war.
> 
> She was lacking attention and compliments from you, she got some from someone else and it felt good, she told you. Now you know what she needs, take her out, have fun together. Don't let things slide back into where they were.


How does that saying go...
You have to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

tom67 said:


> How does that saying go...
> You have to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it.


Ya, that doesn't mean blowing it up by being silly and immature. 

Women like men who are confident, can listen, work through problems. 

Very few women like or respect those kind of games and tactic.

Picture this, your wife stops having sex with you. Years go by and you're barely getting any, no affection, no touch.

You go to the gym. you get hit on, it feels good.

You struggle a bit with the feelings but decide to take the mature route with and discuss with your wife that things need to change and admit the new attention has woken you up to the fact that you NEED it at home.

Would you prefer she 
a) listened and understood and made a solid effort to meet your needs
b) told you if you ever go to the gym again she is divorcing you and goes out for the night, not answering your calls?

Playing games is for kids, communication is for grown ups who are married. 
No one respects a husband that acts like a child. 

These kinds of advice methods are harmful and will only push her away.


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## convert

ReidWright said:


> yeah, imagine it the other way, OP. Some woman tells YOU how good you are looking at the gym. Would that seem perfectly normal to you?
> 
> Would you go home and tell your wife, "that friend of ours told me how good I looked!"
> 
> *your wife wanted a reaction or was trying to get your tacit approval that his flirting is ok*


yes, very possible

sort of a sh!t test


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## eric1

Just go to the gym with her. Tell her you're going with her from now on. Her face within three seconds of saying that to her will tell you everything that you need to know.


----------



## bbdad

Just to bring in an alternate view here. I am a gym rat. I would say 90% of my friends are ones I have met at the gym. My wife used to go to the gym with me, but she has fallen out of the exercise lifestyle. There are many women at the gym that I am friends with. Sometimes, they will join my workout partner and I if they are looking for a different push in the gym - we are pretty intense in the gym. Sometimes, a particular woman may last 3-6 months working out with us. I can totally state that there is no issue of "bad thoughts." All of us in the gym will compliment each other if we notice major changes. Often times, one or more of us will be prepping for a show. At those times, we are constantly saying some one looks good, needs to improve this area, etc. If we notice a lady at the gym that has made changes in her appearance, it is not uncommon to state that she looks nice. Again, nothing sexual meant at all. So, it could be all innocent on both ends.

However, I will say that our group of gym friends is a very rare set. It would be good for the OP to keep an eye on things for awhile.


----------



## happy as a clam

Decorum said:


> We need a thread documenting all the "philosophies" that enable cheating.


Excellent idea. It would be great reading for newbies.


----------



## Satya

Thound said:


> So do we. It's great for hanging clothes on.


Lol.


----------



## straightshooter

KJ,

The thing that is very striking to me is the fact that her girlfriends have pretty much told her to cut this idea out and they probably know more about this than you do. That in itself is unusual. if they had the perception that this was no big deal, they would be supporting her in continuing with this male training buddy.

Either they are all prudes and old fashioned or there is something they sense that this is not healthy.

you ought to think about that one.


----------



## tech-novelist

happy as a clam said:


> Excellent idea. It would be great reading for newbies.


Yes. Another idea I've had is for an interactive web site that asks questions about a spouse's behavior and then provides an estimate of the probability of the behavior indicating cheating.

Like "phone glued to hip" = 90% probability, "ILYBINILWY" = 95% probability, etc.

Obviously it would need to compound the probabilities correctly so we don't end up with 185% probability if both of the above are true. :grin2:


----------



## happy as a clam

technovelist said:


> Yes. Another idea I've had is for an interactive web site that asks questions about a spouse's behavior and then provides an estimate of the probability of the behavior indicating cheating.


Ok tech... get crackin' on that right away! 

Great idea...


----------



## Tito Santana

I would never, ever be OK if my wife had a male work out partner, unless said partner was me. It's not about being jealous or controlling either, it's about being smart. My wife has a coworker who is going through almost this exact thing right now, it was/is a very early stage EA and was caught onto already.

If you work out with, get in shape with, sweat with, a member of the opposite sex that you find attractive, it seems to lead to working out and sweating with said partner in other ways. I've seen this story at my gym many times.


----------



## welldusted

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Ya, that doesn't mean blowing it up by being silly and immature.
> 
> Women like men who are confident, can listen, work through problems.
> 
> Very few women like or respect those kind of games and tactic.
> 
> Picture this, your wife stops having sex with you. Years go by and you're barely getting any, no affection, no touch.
> 
> You go to the gym. you get hit on, it feels good.
> 
> You struggle a bit with the feelings but decide to take the mature route with and discuss with your wife that things need to change and admit the new attention has woken you up to the fact that you NEED it at home.
> 
> Would you prefer she
> a) listened and understood and made a solid effort to meet your needs
> b) told you if you ever go to the gym again she is divorcing you and goes out for the night, not answering your calls?
> 
> Playing games is for kids, communication is for grown ups who are married.
> No one respects a husband that acts like a child.
> 
> These kinds of advice methods are harmful and will only push her away.


Considering that his wife is already, at a minimum, in a quasi-emotional-affair situation, this advice doesn't apply. That's all good advice AFTER the contact with the OM has completely ended. As long as she is dallying with this other guy, she's going to be too fogged for it to matter whether he "meets her needs." She'll look for any justification she can get to keep being around the guy (as you pretty much admitted you would do, in your following post). Quite frankly, it's ironic for you to talk about grown ups. Grown ups do not justify cheating by deciding that their "needs are not being met." That's an entitled child's attitude.


----------



## Svina

I just want to share my issue with this. My husband started running with a girl at work, she was fairly older and in a relationship so I was not concerned. In fact it was even the three of them running. Apparently there were some discussions about having a fling. He had the chance one day when they were alone together in her house but he felt guilty and left. He admitted everything. That should have been my wake up call. That was just the beginning, it seems like it was a baby step leading onto more things. It now seems he feels less and less guilty when he meets new people. I do not think he has done anything as of yet but I feel like it is just a matter of time. 

So just do not take things too lightly and listen to your gut.


----------



## naiveonedave

Svina said:


> I just want to share my issue with this. My husband started running with a girl at work, she was fairly older and in a relationship so I was not concerned. In fact it was even the three of them running. Apparently there were some discussions about having a fling. He had the chance one day when they were alone together in her house but he felt guilty and left. He admitted everything. That should have been my wake up call. That was just the beginning, it seems like it was a baby step leading onto more things. It now seems he feels less and less guilty when he meets new people. I do not think he has done anything as of yet but I feel like it is just a matter of time.
> 
> So just do not take things too lightly and listen to your gut.


running clubs have nuked 3 marriages that I know of......


----------



## jsmart

straightshooter said:


> KJ,
> 
> The thing that is very striking to me is the fact that *her girlfriends have pretty much told her to cut this idea out and they probably know more about this than you do*. That in itself is unusual. if they had the perception that this was no big deal, they would be supporting her in continuing with this male training buddy.
> 
> Either they are all prudes and old fashioned or there is something *they sense that this is not healthy*.
> 
> you ought to think about that one.


That stood out to me as well. her friends discouraged her actions because OPs wife must have been talking about gym boy too enthusiastically. They saw the danger. Those are friends to the marriage. Don't know how many times woman have friends that will egg a woman to destroy her marriage. 

OP is lucky that his wife's friends are pro marriage. But with his naive ideas about male/female friendships and his desire to not seem controlling can give gym boy the confidence that he can bust his moves on her and leaving his wife vulnerable to respond to them.


----------



## KJ_Simmons

I really appreciate everyone who responded, and for many of you, your bluntness! It certainly gave me a lot to think about. I also had to look up the lingo and in the process learned a lot regarding EA's and PA's and $hit tests and the like. The last thing I want to do is sit idly by while an EA blossoms.

I casually brought it up today and found out she is already planning on going to this class next week. So I'll ask her late in the day if I can go so I can see for myself what's so addicting about this class (I dread having to dance! It's some type of zumba deal). You're right though, her reaction will say a lot.

Since we have been taking the right steps in our relationship and communicating much more openly lately, I do still plan on talking with her about this whole situation. Just want to get into her head a bit more on what she was feeling and why things went down like they did.

One burning thought is that she first told me of this training arrangement during foreplay. Totally out of the blue. I was literally on my way down. I find the timing a bit odd.

Again, thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I'll keep everyone posted on any developments.


----------



## jdawg2015

convert said:


> yes, very possible
> 
> sort of a sh!t test


This case I very definition of a sh!t test. No sorta about it.

OP, you need to be very firm with her and tell her this kinda of thing is not going to be something you will accept in your marriage.

This is out of line and don't let anyone tell you differently.

You don't befriend a new opposite sex workout partner while married and then accept compliments. Even if he was legit, the minute a guy crosses that line he's toast and the contact ends. Unfortunately your wife decided to not do it on her own so now you need to put boundaries in place after the fact.

Please let us know how this goes as we can give you some advice and also warn you on what some of the likely nonsense she'll tell you to throw you off.


----------



## jsmart

KJ_Simmons said:


> I really appreciate everyone who responded, and for many of you, your bluntness! It certainly gave me a lot to think about. I also had to look up the lingo and in the process learned a lot regarding EA's and PA's and $hit tests and the like. The last thing I want to do is sit idly by while an EA blossoms.
> 
> I casually brought it up today and found out she is already planning on going to this class next week. So I'll ask her late in the day if I can go so I can see for myself what's so addicting about this class (I dread having to dance! It's some type of zumba deal). You're right though, her reaction will say a lot.
> 
> Since we have been taking the right steps in our relationship and communicating much more openly lately, I do still plan on talking with her about this whole situation. Just want to get into her head a bit more on what she was feeling and why things went down like they did.
> 
> *One burning thought is that she first told me of this training arrangement during foreplay. Totally out of the blue. I was literally on my way down. I find the timing a bit odd.*
> 
> Again, thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I'll keep everyone posted on any developments.


That's disturbing. She was thinking about douche during sex, which jives with what a lot of us have been telling you; that the increased hot sex your getting, is being driven by this guy increase her desire. VERY dangerous.

I'm glad your trying the workout. Just going to the gym together could be enough. She could do a Zumba class but any workouts apart from that should be with you, another woman, or by herself. This is where you C block by insisting that one on one workouts with this guy end. Be firm. She may give you attitude but will deep down be glad you're fighting for her.


----------



## the guy

jsmart said:


> Be firm. She may give you attitude but will deep down be glad you're fighting for her.


At the end of the day your old lady can either except how you protect the marriage or not....you can't control her , but you can control what you will and will not tolerate.

Are you willing to make her face the consequences if she *chooses* to not except how you protect the marriage?

If she is not willing to affair proof the marriage can you let her go and let her face her new reality of you no longer tolerating sharing her with another man?
Depending how fogged in she is...she may not be glad you are "protecting" the marriage, but find it controlling!

You can't demand respect but you can command respect by having firm boundaries and the consequences for when those boundaries are crossed.

It will always be up to your old lady to avoid these consequences and affair proof her marriage or not......and that is when the ball is in your court...and can you let her go if she does make the choice in not excepting the protection you have to offer?

In short make your boundaries and the consequences clear....and stick with the phucked up choice you have to make if she does cross them.


----------



## Evinrude58

The first sign my ex wife was having multiple nasty sexting/picture-sending ea's and whatever else with other men?

She started working out at the gym before work at 4:30 in the morning and dropping weight. 

Started dressing ****tier. Shaving daily.

I think you are in far more danger than you know.
I'm also glad you're going to TRY to go to the gym with her. I am worried she's going to make excuses why she doesn't want you to. She's going because that's her place to be with her new workout buddy. She's interested in losing weight to look good for him.

Nix it. No male workout buddies. That's ridiculous in my opinion. Why does she need that. Girls are there to work out with. 

Would she allow you a sexy one-on-one workout bud? Hell no! She's not stupid!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## syhoybenden

Apologies ... I'm not spamming here but I'd like to throw this in.

My wife does her workouts at a place called Curves. It's for Women Only. No men ever in the building at any time.
It's a big chain. Maybe find out if there's one in your town and get her a membership there.


----------



## Omego

Not trying to add fuel to the flames but the foreplay comment is a warning sign.

It's normal to find other people attractive when married. That's why one should avoid these kind of situations. 

I think you should stop 'trying' to join the workout and just tell her she can't go anymore. If she balks, tell her fine, but in that case you're free to work out and become close with other women..

And if this becomes the case, what's the point in being married.

My H gets hit on at the gym by female colleagues. He just says a polite hello and doesn't encourage it. This is what your wife should be doing, if she's interested in preserving the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam

The male workout buddy sounds like a d*uchebag. Ask yourself WHY he is even attending the dang Zumba class anyway -- the dude should be at the squat rack lifting heavy weights!

(Ok, I know that's a sexist remark and my apologies to any men here who enjoy Zumba, but he's only in the class because your wife is.)

And one more thing... The notion of needing a "workout partner" to do Zumba is ridiculous! It's not like lifting where you NEED an actual partner to spot you for safety reasons. He just wants to watch her shake her tail to the music.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

happy as a clam said:


> The male workout buddy sounds like a d*uchebag. Ask yourself WHY he is even attending the dang Zumba class anyway -- the dude should be at the squat rack lifting heavy weights!
> 
> (Ok, I know that's a sexist remark and my apologies to any men here who enjoy Zumba, but he's only in the class because your wife is.)
> 
> And one more thing... The notion of needing a "workout partner" to do Zumba is ridiculous! It's not like lifting where you NEED an actual partner to spot you for safety reasons. He just wants to watch her shake her tail to the music.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Aside from the exception, the rule for men in Zumba is to have a rear view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

KJ_Simmons said:


> I really appreciate everyone who responded, and for many of you, your bluntness! It certainly gave me a lot to think about. I also had to look up the lingo and in the process learned a lot regarding EA's and PA's and $hit tests and the like. The last thing I want to do is sit idly by while an EA blossoms.
> 
> I casually brought it up today and found out she is already planning on going to this class next week. So I'll ask her late in the day if I can go so I can see for myself what's so addicting about this class (I dread having to dance! It's some type of zumba deal). You're right though, her reaction will say a lot.
> 
> Since we have been taking the right steps in our relationship and communicating much more openly lately, I do still plan on talking with her about this whole situation. Just want to get into her head a bit more on what she was feeling and why things went down like they did.
> 
> One burning thought is that she first told me of this training arrangement during foreplay. Totally out of the blue. I was literally on my way down. I find the timing a bit odd.
> 
> Again, thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I'll keep everyone posted on any developments.


Great move going to the class. Do not back down. 

And yes, finding males in those classes is pretty rare, so he's either trolling for ass or not mainstream. 

Don't let her know you're going until that day, if she is "meeting" him then she'll have cemented plans by then. Her emotions will be set on that so by disrupting them you'll discern the depth of those emotions. Hopefully there are none.

You'll also be able to tell a lot by if she protests you going, like "aw no, you'll hate it". Just say "well you said your trainer liked it, I always thought that it was a girl thing, but you may have a point. You've convinced me to try it!". (yes, I'm a passive aggressive a$$hole in real life too)


----------



## happy as a clam

ConanHub said:


> Aside from the exception, the rule for men in Zumba is to have a rear view.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So THAT explains why all the men are always in the back row of the class!!

:lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eric1

ConanHub said:


> Aside from the exception, the rule for men in Zumba is to have a rear view.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol and on the sixth day he created yoga pants.

In my experience the clientele at most of these things isn't much to get excited about. The place to be is at a crossfit gym during squat day. :laugh:


----------



## happy as a clam

eric1 said:


> And yes, finding males in those classes is pretty rare, so *he's either trolling for ass or not mainstream.*


Exactly!


----------



## happy as a clam

eric1 said:


> You'll also be able to tell a lot by if she protests you going, like "aw no, you'll hate it". Just say "well you said your trainer liked it, *I always thought that it was a girl thing,* but you may have a point. *You've convinced me to try it!".* (yes, I'm a passive aggressive a$$hole in real life too)


Love this!! (Sometimes a little P/A can be very gratifying... )


----------



## straightshooter

KC,

If you do decide to go to this class, do NOT mention it until she is ready to go. Then tell her you are going to. If all of a sudden this class is not so great and she is not as determined to go, then you have spoiled the party. But i do not think this does anything to solve your problem.

if i understood it correctly, she intended on doing training alone with this guy. That does not happen in a zumba class with 30 -100 other folks in the class. And it is BEFORE or AFTER THE CLASSS THAT SHE INTENDS ON BEING ALONE WITH HIM.

Personally, if i were you the first things i would do are
(1) get the gym schedule and make sure there really is a class scheduled for when she says she is going. For all you know, they may already be in "private training mode". If there is no Zumba class or whatever class she is calling it, then you have just caught her up to no good right there.
(2) if there is a class, I would not necessarily go to this one, but i WOULD make sure I was situated outside the gym after the class and see how long it takes her to get to car and on the way home. And if this guy walks her to car. They are not having sex in the gym. 
(3) If he does walk her to car, you will be able to tell from the body language some of what is going on.

Your wife talking about another guy hitting on her or flirting with her during foreplay is NOT a good sign. if she was talking about some movie start in Hollywood it would be different, but this guy exists and she has direct contact with him. I believe she is testing your reaction.

i hope you are taking all this **** seriously because from what you have posted if you are not real careful here, you are going to get a very unpleasant surprise. 

Again, I think immediately going to the class with her may alert her that you are suspiscious and she will find another way to get to be with him. Right now, you know exactly where there current interactions are unless we all are too late and they already have met up privately.

Now, you are not going to like this, especially if you are locked in to your "hands off philosoiphy", but you cannot be at the gym every time with her. until you get some answers, you really need to consider utting a VAR in her car, because if there is any "private" stuff going on that you do not know about it she will surely be communicating with him in the car OR be telling one of her girlfriends. And by the way, if she disappears to go "shopping: with a 'friend" you better go on alert status.

This whole thing stinks to me. I have been in gyms all my life and i do not see too many 20-30 year old guys in Zumba class unless they are the instructor. As i told you, you really need to pay attention, and clarify how this went from alone time training buddy to just a exercise class meet up.


----------



## Buddy400

KJ_Simmons said:


> I really appreciate everyone who responded, and for many of you, your bluntness! It certainly gave me a lot to think about. I also had to look up the lingo and in the process learned a lot regarding EA's and PA's and $hit tests and the like. The last thing I want to do is sit idly by while an EA blossoms.
> 
> I casually brought it up today and found out she is already planning on going to this class next week. So I'll ask her late in the day if I can go so I can see for myself what's so addicting about this class (I dread having to dance! It's some type of zumba deal). You're right though, her reaction will say a lot.
> 
> Since we have been taking the right steps in our relationship and communicating much more openly lately, I do still plan on talking with her about this whole situation. Just want to get into her head a bit more on what she was feeling and why things went down like they did.
> 
> One burning thought is that she first told me of this training arrangement during foreplay. Totally out of the blue. I was literally on my way down. I find the timing a bit odd.
> 
> Again, thanks for all the thoughtful replies. I'll keep everyone posted on any developments.


I don't see why you'd have to do the class; you could just be in the gym. Maybe once, say it's not your thing and then go lift weights.


----------



## Hicks

KJ_Simmons said:


> I
> One burning thought is that she first told me of this training arrangement during foreplay. Totally out of the blue. I was literally on my way down. I find the timing a bit odd.
> 
> .


Ummm...yeah not really that odd when you think about it.


----------



## Decorum

KJ_Simmons said:


> a bit more on what she was feeling and why things went down like they did.
> 
> One burning thought is that she first told me of this training arrangement during foreplay. Totally out of the blue. I was literally on my way down. I find the timing a bit odd.
> 
> .


Brother you were on your way to losing her!

Now he is her "Zumba partner".

Listen woman crave atention in a way men dont understand.

When they receive it from somone with some kind of "status" they respect they believe it is sincere without question and they feel flattered and appreciative. Up to that point it can seem innocent and appropriate to them. They will feel a little closer to that person. It feels like a satisfying friendship, and they look forward to seeing that person.

If he slowly escalates it with touching and complements she will begin to crave HIM, emotionally first then sexually. Lines have already been crossed by this time but they seem minor. They are "small" infractions on his part or the awareness of lingering desire on hers. Its at this point that many woman try to correct the relationship in small ways, and it firsts dawns on them that they are "starting" to develop feelings for him.

It can catch her by supprise as she admits it to herself and starts trying to "keep" it a friendship.

This is a signal to the guy that she is on the hook.

All he has to do is start using innocent relationship words, like I missed seeing you at class and work with her at keeping it a friendship.

Questions like, " Is your husband concerned, does he realize we are just friends", which begins to paint you as selfish, absent, uncaring and controling.

Or "If you were mine I would be here (which he is) with you and never let you out of my sight." she feels the arms of his protection encircling around her.

This becomes a tacit admissions of their feelings for each other which quickly moves to admissions of feelings.

Some woman stop it here and you never know about it, others may tell.

Often it goes increasingly physical until later she will say "it just happened", "I was so attracted to him and the connection was so powerful so quickly" (She will tell that one to her friends not you).

Add to that a rough patch in your marriage and you will wonder how the beauitful caring person you married became the selfish lying cheater who devestated you, oh and its all your fault according to her.

If she lets another man meet her needs she will fall in love with him.

But the dark side is that cheating changes you.

Dont underestimate this!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## welldusted

happy as a clam said:


> So THAT explains why all the men are always in the back row of the class!!
> 
> :lol:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think I've ever noticed a man in a zumba-type class at my gym. Sometimes guys do the "bootcamp" classes, occasionally yoga. I tried a class once and hated it, prefer to just lift and do a little jumprope at the end. Not trying to pull anyone's man card, just making an observation. Anyway, I don't like to perv on women too much at the gym -- (1) don't want to make anyone uncomfortable and (2) boners in mesh shorts are a little obvious.


----------



## happy as a clam

welldusted said:


> I don't think I've ever noticed a man in a zumba-type class at my gym.


They are certainly few and far between...



welldusted said:


> Not trying to pull anyone's man card, just making an observation.


Agree. But this is coming from a woman who is usually the only chick at the squat rack while I see all the gals filing in for the Zumba class... 



welldusted said:


> Anyway, I don't like to perv on women too much at the gym -- (1) don't want to make anyone uncomfortable and *(2) boners in mesh shorts are a little obvious.*


THIS made me laugh! :lol:


----------



## welldusted

happy as a clam said:


> Agree. But this is coming from a woman who is usually the only chick at the squat rack while I see all the gals filing in for the Zumba class...


Thankfully, or the wait would be twice as long. In reality, more women should squat and do other compound lifts, it's great for everyone and the whole "bulking up" thing is even more of a myth for women than for men.


----------



## Evinrude58

Decorum said:


> Brother you were on your way to losing her!
> 
> Now he is her "Zumba partner".
> 
> Listen woman crave atention in a way men dont understand.
> 
> When they receive it from somone with some kind of "status" they respect they believe it is sincere without question and they feel flattered and appreciative. Up to that point it can seem innocent and appropriate to them. They will feel a little closer to that person. It feels like a satisfying friendship, and they look forward to seeing that person.
> 
> If he slowly escalates it with touching and complements she will begin to crave HIM, emotionally first then sexually. Lines have already been crossed by this time but they seem minor. They are "small" infractions on his part or the awareness of lingering desire on hers. Its at this point that many woman try to correct the relationship in small ways, and it firsts dawns on them that they are "starting" to develop feelings for him.
> 
> It can catch her by supprise as she admits it to herself and starts trying to "keep" it a friendship.
> 
> This is a signal to the guy that she is on the hook.
> 
> All he has to do is start using innocent relationship words, like I missed seeing you at class and work with her at keeping it a friendship.
> 
> Questions like, " Is your husband concerned, does he realize we are just friends", which begins to paint you as selfish, absent, uncaring and controling.
> 
> Or "If you were mine I would be here (which he is) with you and never let you out of my sight." she feels the arms of his protection encircling around her.
> 
> This becomes a tacit admissions of their feelings for each other which quickly moves to admissions of feelings.
> 
> Some woman stop it here and you never know about it, others may tell.
> 
> Often it goes increasingly physical until later she will say "it just happened", "I was so attracted to him and the connection was so powerful so quickly" (She will tell that one to her friends not you).
> 
> Add to that a rough patch in your marriage and you will wonder how the beauitful caring person you married became the selfish lying cheater who devestated you, oh and its all your fault according to her.
> 
> If she lets another man meet her needs she will fall in love with him.
> 
> But the dark side is that cheating changes you.
> 
> Dont underestimate this!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not really into a lot of psychobabble over-analysis that goes on here sometimes, but this is so perfectly accurate that I thought it worth quoting. Common sense description of what happens with cheating women. The most descriptive thing is that they fall in love with whomever is giving them the attention, and the cheating CHANGES THEM! I didn't recognize my ex wife on twitter by the comments that she was making other than the picture avatar and the people involved. She was sexting and sending pics and having multiple sexual/virtual relationships with other men at the time. 
At this point, I truly feel she has no moral character or empathy for others. Something that wasn't true when she was faithful.
Cheating definitely changes a person--- never for the better, methinks.


----------



## WonkyNinja

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This would just make me feel like my H didn't give a crap about me anyway and was probably getting some of his own on the side so it would drop enough care and love for him that I would be a lot more vulnerable to run to some other guy, who is treating me nicely.
> 
> OP- Doing what you guys are doing by building up your marriage at home is the way to go, don't blow it up with silly games like this. If you wouldn't want her to brush off what you're saying and then take off for the night, don't do it to her. Stuff like this just turns into a war.
> 
> She was lacking attention and compliments from you, she got some from someone else and it felt good, she told you. Now you know what she needs, take her out, have fun together. Don't let things slide back into where they were.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Reread what SGC said above and next posts.

You said you've had a long discussion and you are both rebuilding your relationship then keep up the good work. 

She said that you don't go and work out with her? Then do so. But go as her H and partner to spend time with her not as some kind of sulking big brother to keep friends away from her. 

Keep her yours by being the best man she can have, she's thought so for 20 years, not by trying to control her and tell her who she can and cannot talk to. 

Obviously if you get a real reason to intervene then you may have to but if you go in accusing her of cheating when she hasn't you'll just blow up all the progress you made in the relationship.


----------



## bbdad

Yeah...my comments with a view from the other side should all be retracted if she is talking about this guy during foreplay. The guy may or may not be trying to cross a line, but she has at least crossed a mental line if not physical.


----------



## tom67

bbdad said:


> Yeah...my comments with a view from the other side should all be retracted if she is talking about this guy during foreplay. The guy may or may not be trying to cross a line, but she has at least crossed a mental line if not physical.


:surprise::iagree::iagree:


----------



## eric1

WonkyNinja said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Reread what SGC said above and next posts.
> 
> You said you've had a long discussion and you are both rebuilding your relationship then keep up the good work.
> 
> She said that you don't go and work out with her? Then do so. But go as her H and partner to spend time with her not as some kind of sulking big brother to keep friends away from her.
> 
> Keep her yours by being the best man she can have, she's thought so for 20 years, not by trying to control her and tell her who she can and cannot talk to.
> 
> Obviously if you get a real reason to intervene then you may have to but if you go in accusing her of cheating when she hasn't you'll just blow up all the progress you made in the relationship.


This is a great point. Go to the gym with her for a purpose, but don't lose the fact that she's still your life partner and it should be fun. If you're with the right woman then even a crappy Zumba class would be fun, hell give it a shot.


----------



## JukeboxHero

I'm just curious...why don't you work out with her in the first place?


----------



## JukeboxHero

ConanHub said:


> Aside from the exception, the rule for men in Zumba is to have a rear view.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What's the exception?


----------



## KJ_Simmons

JukeboxHero said:


> I'm just curious...why don't you work out with her in the first place?


I've tried off and on through the years, but she never stuck with it. You can only try so many times, and alter your routine in the process, before you tell her you gotta find out for yourself how bad you want to get in better shape and then do it for yourself. I did recognize the need to spend more time with her, and since I love to hike and trail run, I invited her into my world. She got the best workout she probably ever had in terms of difficulty. The yoga class I invited her to was admittedly a bit weak due to the instructor that day, but I told her not to let that impact her decision to try it again. But she doesn't want to do either with me again. I just get excuses why she can't go.

She has been fascinated by Crossfit for a long time, but a bit intimidated. After all this went down, I found out about an all female gym in town that is basically Crossfit for women. I told her to check it out, and she did. Said it was way too expensive. So I offered to make up any amount she wasn't comfortable paying (6 month contract). Thought this was right up her alley, and very close to work, but she still declined.

My take from all this is that basically she was craving some time and attention, not an actual workout. Even though I'm trying my best to fill that void, she keeps returning to the environment that was filling that void when I wasn't.


----------



## Evinrude58

So, this is when you go to the gym with her, have a good time, find out who the training buddy is. After you find out, go have a chat with him. You should NOT say anything like "stay away from my wife" or anything he can go back to her and whine about. You say it with your body language, eyes, and basically explaining to him non verbally that he'd better look elsewhere for a date. The tone of voice you have should be sufficient. Don't let HIM intimidate you. DOn't GAF what he looks like or how big he is, she is your wife and she's worth it to you. He will sense that he's messing with someone that doesn't tolerate **** and move on to some other unsuspecting guy's wife. Gym guys that prey on women aren't zeroed in on your wife in particular, just whoever they can snare in their web of deceitful bs.
I know, people will say that it will just be another. That is where the building the relationship stuff comes in. Right now, you gotta get rid of the guy she's thinking about during foreplay with you....
That's the number one job, and I would do whatever it took to take care of it.

Then again, you are a confident, trusting, secure man. You don't have to worry about these things. This is just my advice. It's free and may be overpriced.


----------



## straightshooter

*She has been fascinated by Crossfit for a long time, but a bit intimidated. After all this went down, I found out about an all female gym in town that is basically Crossfit for women. I told her to check it out, and she did. Said it was way too expensive. So I offered to make up any amount she wasn't comfortable paying (6 month contract). Thought this was right up her alley, and very close to work, but she still declined.

My take from all this is that basically she was craving some time and attention, not an actual workout. Even though I'm trying my best to fill that void, she keeps returning to the environment that was filling that void when I wasn't.*

KC,

This is getting more ominous everytime you post something. So here you have offered to give her a gift of a membership into a women's gym that specializes in the activity that she is interested in, and she turns it Dow,

She wants to be where this guy is. I hope to hell you can see that, and from what you just posted my recommendation is to not give a Damm about going to class but sit outside after class and get the VAR in her car.

Understand something KC, there are a few schools of thought on this whole infidelity, and one of them ( thankfully most folks ignore this one), is that if you have a WW or potential WW you should let her dalliance go on because they usually do not last and instead of putting your foot down try to "woo" her back. This thought process, written by one well know PHD, tells men that even if there wife is leaving the house all dressed up to go be with other man, that you should compliment her and show her you love her more than him. TOTALLY IDIOTIC , but some of the advice you have gotten to let her talk to or exercise with who she wants to because you can't and should not control her is headed in that direction.

You can't control her but you sure as hell can control yourself and communicate what you will stand for and not stand for.

Now your wife has turned down you getting her into an expensive nice Crossfit place, she is talking about, alone time exercise with another man, she is bringing this one guy during sex with you, and her girlfriends probably already know it has moved into the inappropriate range and have told her that. 

HOW MANY MORE RED FLAGS DO YOU NEED MY FRIEND????
Yoiu need to tell her she can turn down your offer of the Crossfit women's place but she is not having private exercise time with another man while she is your wife.


----------



## Lila

KJ_Simmons said:


> My take from all this is that basically *she was craving some time and attention, not an actual workout*. Even though I'm trying my best to fill that void, she keeps returning to the environment that was filling that void when I wasn't.


Instead of automatically assuming the worse case scenario, try going to the gym with your wife and doing the kinds of work-outs she likes. Show her that you are doing this to spend time with HER, because you love her and she's your wife. As you stated above, it's not about the workout. It's about spending time with her doing something that she enjoys. Zumba like you're the f**king Zumba King and do it with a smile on your face. 

I'm going to give you a personal example with the genders reversed. My husband is an avid obstacle course runner (Spartan Race, Tough Mudder, Frog). He used to ask me to race with him, unfortunately I'm running averse and hate rolling around in the mud, two things that are a requirement for these types of events. Anyways, he joined a group whose membership includes women....very attractive, very fit women. I am not ashamed to admit that I was feeling a bit insecure with it all. Should I have 'put my foot down' and demanded that he stop running with his group because I have insecurity issues? No. It's my problem to fix and I did. I signed up for my first race this spring. When my husband found out, he was ecstatic. Training for this race has given us another opportunity to spend quality time with each other. The fact that I'm making an effort to participate in a recreational activity he loves means the world to him. Who would have thought that agreeing to a silly race would me so much to him?

Anyways, I hope you'll look at this as an opportunity to spend quality time with your wife, not as a situation that needs strong arm tactics.


----------



## straightshooter

*Anyways, I hope you'll look at this as an opportunity to spend quality time with your wife, not as a situation that needs strong arm tactics.*

Well. Lila, he tried to do something really nice for his wife and she was not interested. So I wonder what the take on it will be if she really does not care if he goes to Zumba. This is not about class. It is about her wanting a one on one training partner that is another man who has been complimenting her looks, who she has brought up during sex, and who her girlfriends have told her to not pursue the one on one training with.

I don't see how him not being comfortable with that is "strong arm tactics".

She has not invited him to go to the class at all. She HAS TALKED TO HIM ABOUT TRAINIG ALONE WITH ANOTHER MAN.

So let's see how thril;led she is about him offering to go to class. My bet is she tells him it is no big deal to her and tries to discourage it. If hubby is there there is no one on one time with OM who is chasing her.


----------



## Lila

straightshooter said:


> Well. Lila, he tried to do something really nice for his wife and she was not interested. So I wonder what the take on it will be if she really does not care if he goes to Zumba. This is not about class. It is about her wanting a one on one training partner that is another man who has been complimenting her looks, who she has brought up during sex, and who her girlfriends have told her to not pursue the one on one training with.
> 
> I don't see how him not being comfortable with that is "strong arm tactics".
> 
> She has not invited him to go to the class at all. She HAS TALKED TO HIM ABOUT TRAINIG ALONE WITH ANOTHER MAN.
> 
> So let's see how thril;led she is about him offering to go to class. My bet is she tells him it is no big deal to her and tries to discourage it. If hubby is there there is no one on one time with OM who is chasing her.


If what she really wants is for him to participate in activities with her, then joining an all woman crossfit gym will not help. Up until a few days ago, the OP had not offered to go to the gym with her. 

The easiest solution is for OP to go to the gym with his wife and do the classes with her. It's a win win. If this other guy is trying to start something with her, his presence will dissuade him. If she's interested in pursuing the guy, his presence will dissuade them. If all she's looking for is someone to work out with, his presence will fill that role. If she's only interested in having someone compliment her, then his presence AND compliments will fill that need. He needs to get to the gym. 

Forcing her to leave the gym because he doesn't want to workout but he also doesn't want her near this guy tells her he doesn't trust her. She will only become more guarded with what she shares with him in the future. 

If after trying it the easy he realizes that she's only interested in cheating on him, then I'll be the first to tell him to divorce her. She's a dumbass. Why? Because only a complete idiot would bring up wanting to spend time with the OM while having sex with their husband. Just saying.


----------



## straightshooter

*The easiest solution is for OP to go to the gym with his wife and do the classes with her. It's a win win. If this other guy is trying to start something with her, his presence will dissuade him. If she's interested in pursuing the guy, his presence will dissuade them. If all she's looking for is someone to work out with, his presence will fill that role. If she's only interested in having someone compliment her, then his presence AND compliments will fill that need. He needs to get to the gym. *

The concern is not IF the other guy is starting something with her. It is if something inappropriate is already started, and her girlfriends getting involved is an indication that her good friends have noticed something going on.

If that is the case, going to the gym with her is not going to solve anything so there is no win win. If an EA or PA is already started, the OM will just back off. OP has to find out if these red flags are really ominous. 

He cannot be her bodyguard at class, and if he gives her the impression he is doing this to watch her, she will take this further underground

Again, let's forget about the Zumba class
(1) she has not asked OP to go to any gym class with her
(2) she has told OP she was thinking of doing PRIVATE on e on one training with another man
(3) she has brought this up during sex that OM was complimenting her on her looks
(4) she has now turned down offer of Crossfit gym, and has not taken that opportunity to tell OP she really wanted him to attend so I rerally do not think this is all about her wanting OP to spend time with her exercising.

KC, stop focusing on this exercise class and focus on the one on one time she wants to spend with this guy running or whatever. 

Don't make her quit the health club. TRhat is the one place you know exactly where she is when exercising. But you going to this class is not going to accomplish finding out what is going on.

Again I will ask KC

WHY DID HER GIRLFRIENDS GET INVOLVED AT ALL HERE TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU KNOW ABUT THEM TELLING HER NOT DO TRAIN ALONE WITH THIS GUY. 

The answer is that they have already seen something that has put THEM on alert that their friend is headed down the wrong side of the road.

And Lila, you sound like an intelligent person. How would your husband react if while having sex with him you told him about some guy at the gym complimenting you on your looks and then told him you want to spend some alone time with him training. Does that sound l;Ike she wants him to do Zumba with him???


----------



## ConanHub

JukeboxHero said:


> What's the exception?


I can't give you a "straight" answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

KJ_Simmons said:


> I've tried off and on through the years, but she never stuck with it. You can only try so many times, and alter your routine in the process, before you tell her you gotta find out for yourself how bad you want to get in better shape and then do it for yourself. I did recognize the need to spend more time with her, and since I love to hike and trail run, I invited her into my world. She got the best workout she probably ever had in terms of difficulty. The yoga class I invited her to was admittedly a bit weak due to the instructor that day, but I told her not to let that impact her decision to try it again. But she doesn't want to do either with me again. I just get excuses why she can't go.
> 
> She has been fascinated by Crossfit for a long time, but a bit intimidated. After all this went down, I found out about an all female gym in town that is basically Crossfit for women. I told her to check it out, and she did. Said it was way too expensive. So I offered to make up any amount she wasn't comfortable paying (6 month contract). Thought this was right up her alley, and very close to work, but she still declined.
> 
> My take from all this is that basically she was craving some time and attention, not an actual workout. Even though I'm trying my best to fill that void, she keeps returning to the environment that was filling that void when I wasn't.


For Christ Sake KJS Just take her to the gym of her choosing and work her as$ into the ground

Then go home shower take her to the rack and do the same thing as in the gym work her as$ 
shower wash rinse and repeat.

55


----------



## Evinrude58

Lila said:


> If what she really wants is for him to participate in activities with her, then joining an all woman crossfit gym will not help. Up until a few days ago, the OP had not offered to go to the gym with her.
> 
> The easiest solution is for OP to go to the gym with his wife and do the classes with her. It's a win win. If this other guy is trying to start something with her, his presence will dissuade him. If she's interested in pursuing the guy, his presence will dissuade them. If all she's looking for is someone to work out with, his presence will fill that role. If she's only interested in having someone compliment her, then his presence AND compliments will fill that need. He needs to get to the gym.
> 
> Forcing her to leave the gym because he doesn't want to workout but he also doesn't want her near this guy tells her he doesn't trust her. She will only become more guarded with what she shares with him in the future.
> 
> If after trying it the easy he realizes that she's only interested in cheating on him, then I'll be the first to tell him to divorce her. She's a dumbass. Why? Because only a complete idiot would bring up wanting to spend time with the OM while having sex with their husband. Just saying.


Surely you can read between the lines and see she isn't interested in him as a workout partner. She never has been, by op's admission. She never has stayed with exercise. Suddenly she is and only THAT gym will do. I'm not saying he should be "controlling" and demand she not work out with the guy unless it's a last resort. He should show up at her gym unannounced and work out, he'll have to because she isn't going to invite him! His presence may be enough. If he sees his wife working out with the guy and goes over and talks to her and introduces himself and makes it obvious that she is HIS wife and is not worried about taking care of any bs with the workout partner, that may be enough to run the guy off. The dude thinks he has already hooked her and may be right. But it may work.

This IS the time for OP to man up and take care of business in a clear, strong, decisive manner. His wife wont be able to claim he's controlling, she will see the OM backing down as he will have to because he's clearly in the wrong, and her husband will have shown he is a man that takes care of business and doesn't back down when another dude is eyeing his wife.

Make no mistake about it--- any man knows darn well they have no business being a married woman's personal "workout partner".

Call it strong- arm tactics if you want, I call it being a man. A decisive, secure, confident man. He will make his presence and his intentions known with the OM and there is not a dam* thing wrong with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Don't ask to go with her, thats weak and needy. just get ready and go with her. Keep your eyes peeled. Any refusal or pouting on her part is telling you what you need to know.

Yes a huge increase in sex can be a huge redflag.

Whats the timeline of your recent troubles in your marriage? How does that coinicide with her exercise routines?

More importantly, how have you verified she did indeed forego working out with this "friend?" She may have read you and lied about that?

One wife, when followed, was going in the gym and going out the back door to a trainers apt.


----------



## Evinrude58

I was having sex with my ex every night, even the night before I asked her to leave when I found out she was still sexting..
_Posted via Mobile Device_
Yes, sudden increase in frequency of sex. My ex even told me I wasn't keeping up with her a few months before I found out about the cheating. I was shocked. I always had a high drive. 

So I totally agree it's a red flag.


----------



## DoneWithHurting

I don't really get all this puzzyfooting around.
If he goes to the gym and makes his "husband" presence known to OM, OM will probably keep his distance while snickering under his breath waiting for an opportunity another day... or they are already communicating underground and his presence won't mean squat except being a beta, following his wife around cause he doesn't trust her.

Why not just take the risk, man up and tell her in no uncertain terms that she can train where and with who she wants... just not being his wife. Let her decide what she wants. Train with OM or keep her husband. Seems pretty straight forward.

I bet OP's wife would be pissed at first, then melt in his arms. If not, he has his answer, if not this OM... then another will be found in the future.

Oh yes OP... spend more time with her and treat her right anyway.... but don't take her crap.


----------



## eric1

straightshooter said:


> *The easiest solution is for OP to go to the gym with his wife and do the classes with her. It's a win win. If this other guy is trying to start something with her, his presence will dissuade him. If she's interested in pursuing the guy, his presence will dissuade them. If all she's looking for is someone to work out with, his presence will fill that role. If she's only interested in having someone compliment her, then his presence AND compliments will fill that need. He needs to get to the gym. *
> 
> The concern is not IF the other guy is starting something with her. It is if something inappropriate is already started, and her girlfriends getting involved is an indication that her good friends have noticed something going on.
> 
> If that is the case, going to the gym with her is not going to solve anything so there is no win win. If an EA or PA is already started, the OM will just back off. OP has to find out if these red flags are really ominous.
> 
> He cannot be her bodyguard at class, and if he gives her the impression he is doing this to watch her, she will take this further underground
> 
> Again, let's forget about the Zumba class
> (1) she has not asked OP to go to any gym class with her
> (2) she has told OP she was thinking of doing PRIVATE on e on one training with another man
> (3) she has brought this up during sex that OM was complimenting her on her looks
> (4) she has now turned down offer of Crossfit gym, and has not taken that opportunity to tell OP she really wanted him to attend so I rerally do not think this is all about her wanting OP to spend time with her exercising.
> 
> KC, stop focusing on this exercise class and focus on the one on one time she wants to spend with this guy running or whatever.
> 
> Don't make her quit the health club. TRhat is the one place you know exactly where she is when exercising. But you going to this class is not going to accomplish finding out what is going on.
> 
> Again I will ask KC
> 
> WHY DID HER GIRLFRIENDS GET INVOLVED AT ALL HERE TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU KNOW ABUT THEM TELLING HER NOT DO TRAIN ALONE WITH THIS GUY.
> 
> The answer is that they have already seen something that has put THEM on alert that their friend is headed down the wrong side of the road.
> 
> And Lila, you sound like an intelligent person. How would your husband react if while having sex with him you told him about some guy at the gym complimenting you on your looks and then told him you want to spend some alone time with him training. Does that sound l;Ike she wants him to do Zumba with him???





I think that going to the gym is just an information gathering tool. Obviously there is some fire to the smoke, but he's going to need to make an informed decision

Her face when he tells her he's going to the gym with her will tell him nearly 100% what he needs to do to proceed. There is a big difference between putting the breaks on something and discussing boundaries versus speaking with a lawyer to understand his rights.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jsmart

Decorum said:


> Brother you were on your way to losing her!
> 
> Now he is her "Zumba partner".
> 
> *Listen woman crave atention in a way men dont understand.
> 
> When they receive it from somone with some kind of "status" they respect they believe it is sincere without question and they feel flattered and appreciative.* Up to that point it can seem innocent and appropriate to them. They will feel a little closer to that person. It feels like a satisfying friendship, and they look forward to seeing that person.
> 
> If he slowly escalates it with touching and complements she will begin to crave HIM, emotionally first then sexually. Lines have already been crossed by this time but they seem minor. They are "small" infractions on his part or the awareness of lingering desire on hers. * Its at this point that many woman try to correct the relationship in small ways, and it firsts dawns on them that they are "starting" to develop feelings for him.
> 
> It can catch her by supprise as she admits it to herself and starts trying to "keep" it a friendship.*
> 
> This is a signal to the guy that she is on the hook.
> 
> All he has to do is start using innocent relationship words, like I missed seeing you at class and work with her at keeping it a friendship.
> 
> Questions like, " *Is your husband concerned, does he realize we are just friends", which begins to paint you as selfish, absent, uncaring and controling.
> 
> Or "If you were mine I would be here (which he is) with you and never let you out of my sight." she feels the arms of his protection encircling around her.*
> 
> This becomes a tacit admissions of their feelings for each other which quickly moves to admissions of feelings.
> 
> Some woman stop it here and you never know about it, others may tell.
> 
> *Often it goes increasingly physical until later she will say "it just happened", "I was so attracted to him and the connection was so powerful so quickly" (She will tell that one to her friends not you).
> *
> Add to that a rough patch in your marriage and you will wonder how the beauitful caring person you married became the selfish lying cheater who devestated you, oh and its all your fault according to her.
> 
> If she lets another man meet her needs she will fall in love with him.
> 
> But the dark side is that cheating changes you.
> 
> Dont underestimate this!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @Decorum post above is chock full of imagery of how these things go down for a WW. I don't know how many times woman say it just happened. Getting attention and compliments along with his actions in the form of enthusiastically training, guiding, and encouraging your wife will get her wanting him. It will be exactly has Deorum's above post. 

Her friends nixed the idea of one on one workout because they could see that she was smitten by him and knew where this leads.

For your wife to bring him up in the middle of sex, means she was thinking of him. Let that sink in. He is firing up her sexuality. No if, ands, or buts about it.


----------



## jsmart

happy as a clam said:


> The male workout buddy sounds like a d*uchebag. Ask yourself WHY he is even attending the dang Zumba class anyway -- the dude should be at the squat rack lifting heavy weights!
> 
> (Ok, I know that's a sexist remark and my apologies to any men here who enjoy Zumba, but he's only in the class because your wife is.)
> 
> And one more thing... The notion of needing a "workout partner" to do Zumba is ridiculous! It's not like lifting where you NEED an actual partner to spot you for safety reasons. He just wants to watch her shake her tail to the music.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You crack me up. This guy doing Zumba with his wife is a freaking tool.

Is this a full service gym? OP, you can do your thing while she does the Zumba. Then you can do a few things together. It's just important that your presence be felt.


----------



## jsmart

KJ_Simmons said:


> I've tried off and on through the years, but she never stuck with it. You can only try so many times, and alter your routine in the process, before you tell her you gotta find out for yourself how bad you want to get in better shape and then do it for yourself. I did recognize the need to spend more time with her, and since I love to hike and trail run, I invited her into my world. She got the best workout she probably ever had in terms of difficulty. The yoga class I invited her to was admittedly a bit weak due to the instructor that day, but I told her not to let that impact her decision to try it again. But she doesn't want to do either with me again. I just get excuses why she can't go.
> 
> She has been fascinated by Crossfit for a long time, but a bit intimidated. After all this went down, I found out about an all female gym in town that is basically Crossfit for women. I told her to check it out, and she did. Said it was way too expensive. So I offered to make up any amount she wasn't comfortable paying (6 month contract). Thought this was right up her alley, and very close to work, but she still declined.
> 
> My take from all this is that basically she was craving some time and attention, not an actual workout. Even though I'm trying my best to fill that void, she keeps returning to the environment that was filling that void when I wasn't.


It's important that your wife see you performing physical activity. Training with this guy, she's noticing his strength, his endurance, and his stamina.

Trail hiking and yoga are excellent but I'm going to advice you to do some resistance training as well. Not saying you to become some musclebound freak. 

A 3 times a week regiment of dead lifts, squats, military & bench presses, bent over rows, and lat pull downs will do AMAZING things for you. Combined with yoga for flexibility & balance, and your trail running for cardio, you'll be a functionally fit man that your wife will be the one keeping her eye on you.
Zumba can be fun and will bring some benefits but what I recommended above would be WAY better for a man.


----------



## 225985

OP, You can read the near universal message that you have a very serious problem and you need to take action NOW. From personal experience I tell you that @Decorum has it dead right. Although now is not the time for reading, there are few books that are well recommended within TAM community - No More Mr. Nice Guy (google search for free pdf download) , Married Man Sex Life Primer, and Not Just Friends. The latter addresses the affair issues. 

Your wife most likely is in the early or middle stages of the "affair fog". Once it starts, the feelings are VERY intense and are just like an addiction to drugs. Your wife is feeling the dopamine effects of her feelings towards the OM and her judgement is impaired. She will not be thinking logically and will not be thinking about the impact on her marriage to you. 

Right now, the OM is the Alpha Male. You must fight for your wife. I most certainly do not mean physically fight the OM. You must show that you give a ****. Your relationship must have boundaries and your wife has far exceeded them. Remember that her judgement is impaired and she cannot see that she has crossed the boundaries required for marriage. Nevertheless, she is still responsible for her actions. 

The TAM community seems split on whether you should show up at gym to fight/chase off OM or to strongly inform your wife of the boundaries, ie. she can go to gym with OM but not as your wife. You have a tough choice, and a big risk is that your wife takes the affair underground and hides it from you. But if you do nothing, we at TAM will be reading your future thread about your wife's PA and your pending divorce. Affairs are not just something that happens to "other people". Good luck my friend.


----------



## Divinely Favored

See_Listen_Love said:


> KJ_Simmons said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last night, however, she comes home from the gym and mentioned running into this guy again, and told me about the conversation they had and how he complimented her looks.
> 
> 
> 
> Another earlier red flag, testing the waters to see how you react. Very common. Later they do not mention it anymore. This alone is not decisive, but in combination with the sex thing: Clearly an EA, possibly going into PA. Or already gone to that.
Click to expand...

I see a woman wanting her husband to give a **** about her and get off his azz and go work out with her. She looks like she is trying to elicit some type of jealousy or any sign he wants or even cares about her.

It's evident he does not care enough for her to mate guard.


----------



## Thor

bbdad said:


> Yeah...my comments with a view from the other side should all be retracted if she is talking about this guy during foreplay. The guy may or may not be trying to cross a line, but she has at least crossed a mental line if not physical.


You'll know it for sure when she moans another man's name during sex...


----------



## JohnA

@Divinely Favored I see a woman already out the door enjoying playing mind games with her husband. He has tried to join her in joint activities but gets shot down. 

I am interest in your last response because I reviewed your about page and your threads. Your first post on http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/293962-just-occurred-me.html on this thread has a lot of truth to it. But most jury's will disagree with you. So anyway it would seem you have steped somewhat (again somewhat) off your baseline. 

Hope to hear from you. OP is it in deep. He calls it wrong the marriage most likely is blown, but at this point not to make the call and go all in one way or another is the worst decision.


----------



## Evinrude58

blueinbr said:


> OP, You can read the near universal message that you have a very serious problem and you need to take action NOW. From personal experience I tell you that @Decorum has it dead right. Although now is not the time for reading, there are few books that are well recommended within TAM community - No More Mr. Nice Guy (google search for free pdf download) , Married Man Sex Life Primer, and Not Just Friends. The latter addresses the affair issues.
> 
> Your wife most likely is in the early or middle stages of the "affair fog". Once it starts, the feelings are VERY intense and are just like an addiction to drugs. Your wife is feeling the dopamine effects of her feelings towards the OM and her judgement is impaired. She will not be thinking logically and will not be thinking about the impact on her marriage to you.
> 
> Right now, the OM is the Alpha Male. You must fight for your wife. I most certainly do not mean physically fight the OM. You must show that you give a ****. Your relationship must have boundaries and your wife has far exceeded them. Remember that her judgement is impaired and she cannot see that she has crossed the boundaries required for marriage. Nevertheless, she is still responsible for her actions.
> 
> The TAM community seems split on whether you should show up at gym to fight/chase off OM or to strongly inform your wife of the boundaries, ie. she can go to gym with OM but not as your wife. You have a tough choice, and a big risk is that your wife takes the affair underground and hides it from you. But if you do nothing, we at TAM will be reading your future thread about your wife's PA and your pending divorce. Affairs are not just something that happens to "other people". Good luck my friend.





Divinely Favored said:


> I see a woman wanting her husband to give a **** about her and get off his azz and go work out with her. She looks like she is trying to elicit some type of jealousy or any sign he wants or even cares about her.
> 
> It's evident he does not care enough for her to mate guard.


I see a man with a wife that's chasing a freaking gym guy and treating her husband like she thinks he's an idiot.
We will see if the OP posts again, if she really wants him to work out with her. She's asked for the gym rat to privately train with her. She'll be getting trained, alright.

I think you are way off with your comment. I hope I'm wrong
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lila

straightshooter said:


> The concern is not IF the other guy is starting something with her. It is if something inappropriate is already started, and her girlfriends getting involved is an indication that her good friends have noticed something going on.
> 
> If that is the case, going to the gym with her is not going to solve anything so there is no win win. If an EA or PA is already started, the OM will just back off. OP has to find out if these red flags are really ominous.
> 
> He cannot be her bodyguard at class, and if he gives her the impression he is doing this to watch her, she will take this further underground
> 
> Again, let's forget about the Zumba class
> (1) she has not asked OP to go to any gym class with her
> (2) she has told OP she was thinking of doing PRIVATE on e on one training with another man
> (3) she has brought this up during sex that OM was complimenting her on her looks
> (4) she has now turned down offer of Crossfit gym, and has not taken that opportunity to tell OP she really wanted him to attend so I rerally do not think this is all about her wanting OP to spend time with her exercising.
> 
> KC, stop focusing on this exercise class and focus on the one on one time she wants to spend with this guy running or whatever.
> 
> Don't make her quit the health club. TRhat is the one place you know exactly where she is when exercising. But you going to this class is not going to accomplish finding out what is going on.
> 
> Again I will ask KC
> 
> WHY DID HER GIRLFRIENDS GET INVOLVED AT ALL HERE TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU KNOW ABUT THEM TELLING HER NOT DO TRAIN ALONE WITH THIS GUY.
> 
> The answer is that they have already seen something that has put THEM on alert that their friend is headed down the wrong side of the road.



I like to focus on the 'whys'. Why would OP's wife bring up this guy? Even more importantly, why is she bringing him up while they're having sex?

There's really only 4 reasons why she would be bringing this guy up to her husband in the manner in which she did:

a) OP makes her feel very secure in the relationship. She feels safe enough to be completely transparent with him.

b) She wants him to spend time with her. Egging him on with the jabs and the "_they are going to begin working out together, because I "don't workout with her_" is her way of passively getting him to show her more attention.

c) She hates OP and this is her exit affair. She doesn't give a crap whether he knows about it or not. Only wants to punish him with it.

d) She's having an affair but isn't the brightest bulb in the box. 

My money is on b simply because "_She has mentioned [her running into the guy at the gym] casually but [OP] never made anything out of it. Then one day out of the blue she tells [OP] they are going to begin working out together, because [OP] "doesn't workout with her"_. " (Post #1) 

However, a is a possibility as well. She might view OP her bestie and not consider the negative consequences sharing such information would have on him.

Of course c and d are all possible but OP would have to give more insight into his relationship to make that determination. For all we know she's been planning her escape for years and this is her final act in this marriage. 




straightshooter said:


> And Lila, you sound like an intelligent person. *How would your husband react if while having sex with him you told him about some guy at the gym complimenting you on your looks and then told him you want to spend some alone time with him training*. Does that sound l;Ike she wants him to do Zumba with him???


Ha, I _am _ an intelligent person straightshooter, but more than anything, I understand the importance of timing. I would NEVER bring up a topic like that to my husband at such an inopportune moment....that is unless I wanted to get a reaction out of him.


----------



## Divinely Favored

JohnA said:


> @Divinely Favored I see a woman already out the door enjoying playing mind games with her husband. He has tried to join her in joint activities but gets shot down.
> 
> I am interest in your last response because I reviewed your about page and your threads. Your first post on http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/293962-just-occurred-me.html on this thread has a lot of truth to it. But most jury's will disagree with you. So anyway it would seem you have steped somewhat (again somewhat) off your baseline.
> 
> Hope to hear from you. OP is it in deep. He calls it wrong the marriage most likely is blown, but at this point not to make the call and go all in one way or another is the worst decision.


She has wanted him to go with her. She never stated it was private training. You can have a work out partner/spotter and be in the gym with 100 people. 

I think she is nieve and may not realize this guy may have alterior motives...or he may not. Her GF may be able to see possible dangers.

It may just be the guy just offered to give pointers/encouragement and every ones trying tell him to tell her if she keeps going she can do so as a single woman.

That would make him look extreemly insecure.

He needs to get off his azz and go with his wife. He does not know **** till he gets eyes on the scene.


----------



## JohnA

KC I saw on another thread your comment about my post on players mentality. Remember a player is always grooming multiple women. Players do not pick up unknown women in bars for ONS. Time spent in a bar with a women is reserved for prey already ready for the kill. @F-102 had a post on how EAs occur in the workplace, that actually serves as a template for a players handbook. I am re-posting the his whole post, please edit it to fit your circumstance: 

Thanks for referencing my thread. I originally wrote it in response to one poster whose W had reconnected to an ex-BF on Facebook, and it outlined how it can go from "Hey, how's it going?" to "I hate my H's guts and I'm leaving him for you!"

Here's the unabridged version:

Right now, the texts/conversations may very well be just two old friends catching up but soon, if left unchecked, may very well morph into:

Their lives since they parted
Their relationships since they parted 
Their families
Their spouses
You
How you're an excellent father
How you're a great husband
How you're a wonderful guy
Your job
How your job keeps you busy
How your job keeps you away
How she sometimes feels a little lonely when you're away
How she sometimes feels a little overburdened at home
How she sometimes feels a little taken for granted
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS listen to her
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS understand her
How she feels that sometimes you're just "not there" for her
How, okay... you're not ALWAYS such a wonderful guy
How she loved hearing from him again
How she looks forward to his texts/calls/e-mails now
How she feels young again
How she feels appreciated again
How she feels attractive again
How it's so nice to have someone who just LISTENS to her again
How it's been so, so long since you made her feel that way
How her eyes have now been opened
How she now realizes what she truly wants and needs
How she now realizes that you could NEVER give her that
How insensitive you can be some times
How you can be a real jerk sometimes
How she wonders if they would have stayed together
How she now realizes that she never really loved you
How she now realizes that she really loved him all along
How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
How you're the biggest a++hole she's ever known
How you're standing in the way of her true happiness
How you ruined her life
How she made a big mistake marrying you
How she made an even bigger mistake letting him go
How now she sees that they were really meant to be together
How she desperately has to get away from you
How she's definitely going to leave you
How she's talking to divorce lawyers
How they're going to live happily ever after...

...get the picture?


----------



## JohnA

KC who the hell is this other guy? What is his rep ? What is his relationship history ?

Understand for a married person any true friend must first be a friend of their marriage. You can like them, at times enjoy their company, but of not a friend of your marriage be wary. This goes n to the 100th power to OSF.


----------



## JohnA

KC I've just read your posts on other other threads. You looked in spy ware, sexless marriages, and fake reconciliation among others. In one post you stated your marriage has been rocky for the past year. It seems you are skirting the issue here and are trying to avoid a truth you don't want to know. 

Understand nearly ever poster who feels the gym class is not a big issues would have posted a different response if they knew this other info.

What other Red Flags are there in your marriage ?


----------



## Starman

Hey mate, go over and read my "Struggling" post and see if anything sinks in there. My wife was having an affair and there was a few telltale signs that were subtle but enough to get my suspicious flowing. Unfortunately once suspicious are flowing its either too late, or the person is beyond saving anyway as thoughts alone about such things are usually a long term deal and not just short quick ideas.

My wife (ex) did little things, like baking food for him, making excuses to catch up with him, and talk to him when I was not around or would hang up if I came near her when talking.

Please don't make my mistake and let it continue, go and knock this on the head because if your partner respects you then she will drop it like a sack of potatoes when confronted, but if not she is definitely up to no good and will continue the trend if it doesn't get dealt with.

I hope you get a positive outcome out of all this mate, best of luck.


----------



## JohnA

You need to make sure this guy is not like the guy who wrote this (which is why suggested you dig deep into hs background) 


Player


My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
findingmyway is offline Forward Message*


----------



## KJ_Simmons

I wanted to give everyone an update since you all were so helpful in opening my eyes and gave me some great advice. 

About a month ago, on class night, I casually mentioned that I had nothing else to do and would like to try the class with her. My wife immediately began trying to talk me out of it. Telling me I wouldn't like it because of all the dancing involved etc.. etc.. She never looked at me or stopped what she was doing while she was telling me this. I went upstairs and a few minutes later she comes up and asks me if I was still planning on going. I told her no, that it was just a wild idea that came to me. I was gonna hit the weights at another facility.

Instead, I actually went to the gym where her class was and hung out for a while waiting for her class to start. Once it did, I popped my head in, and guess who is jamming together in the back? Yep. Once she saw me, she laid it on thick..."OMG HEY!" all smiles etc...They then both come out into the hallway and IMO acting as phony as can be. Just a little too smiley and nice and high pitched. Telling me to come in and join them. I just walked away. I accomplished what I set out to do, which was let them know I have eyes on the situation.

When my wife got home later, she was PO'd. Throwing clothes on the floor, slamming doors, and unacceptable to me taking her anger out on our daughter who ended up running to her room crying. Quite a departure from Mrs. Sunshine that I just experienced an hour earlier isn't it? To me, her behavior wreaked of guilt.

We had a talk that night. Of course, full of denials on her part. Apparently, the concept of an EA was foreign to her, so I filled her in, but she still denied. Regardless, I set the boundary/expectation that she could keep going to that class whenever she wanted, just not as my wife. She agreed to it.

I thought this would be the end of it, but the following week on class night, she said she was going to the gym to workout. I thought there was no way she would be stupid enough to go to the same gym (there are multiple facilities in our city, and some closer to our house), but she let it slip that she was indeed going back to the same gym that the class is held which would have certainly led to them crossing paths. I called her on it immediately, and she began apologizing profusely that it was an accident, she didn't realize or make the connection, etc... Riiggghht. That to me screamed she was still in a fog and crushing on this guy hard.

About a week later she mentioned crossing paths with him and told me they simply waved and went about their business. I thanked her for telling me, but also said that if everything she said was true about there being absolutely nothing to that relationship, why the avoidance. I told her they acted guilty. 

The next morning I felt I had to do something to end this once and for all. I pulled up his FB page (we are "friends" on FB so therefore I can see his feed) and showed her just from the last two months his numerous outings and dinners with other women under the guise of "friendship", some of whom were married. One of the married women actually made the guy something by hand. (How her Hubby let that happen I don't know). Bluntly, I told my wife that she wasn't $hit to him, she was not special, and that she was simply another piece of a$$ he was working. It's almost like I could see the fog lifting from her. She seemed especially disheartened about the lady who made him something. 

In the weeks since, I feel that we've finally put an end to that chapter. I don't think in my heart of hearts that anything happened between them, but I certainly stopped a burgeoning EA. I thank you all for showing me that "just friends" is anything but in a married relationship, and for showing me the tools to put a stop to it and set boundaries. I'm confident had this been allowed to continue, I would have been on here this summer talking about my wife and her PA. I've told her as much. The fact that she was still seeking his attention and validation in the midst of our supposed reconciliation shows just how strong that fog can be for a person.

There were some other things we talked about and brought into the open. Some things from the past, some financial matters she hid from me (I was able to access all her accounts unbeknownst to her. She had a friend request and message from OM, but she deleted both.:smile2 I got some trickle truth, changing stories, and lies of omission regarding some things. And that is something I'm going to have on the back of my mind going forward. I also wonder what's going to happen when a real catch crosses her path one day. All I can do in the meantime is be the best man, husband, and father I can possibly be. If it turns out that isn't enough, then so be it and I have no problem walking. But I'll deal with it if/when we get there. I'm secretly doing the MMSLP/MAP, and we are both reading the 5LL together. 

This forum rocks! :smthumbup:


----------



## 225985

Awesome job KJ. It's always good to hear a success story.


----------



## JohnA

What are her issues with the marriage? What are your's ? You need to find a good mentor to help you though this patch. MC could be a start. If the issues are not dealt with one of you will sneak out the backdoor sooner or later. 

FYI your wife some where in the back of her mind knows se is the one her exEA guy would change for. Stay upbeat with her but live aware. Her reaction is pure DARVO 
Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.

Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.

Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.

What is DARVO?. Thanks again @marduk


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## manfromlamancha

I am not sure that this is a success story yet. Here is my perspective on what happened:


Firstly, women know a player when they see one - that is not a deterrent but a lure. She probably knew he was after other women too but saw herself as "winning" something if she managed to attract him.


Her dismayed look was more to do with being caught rather than the fact that the other married woman made him something. Now she couldn't compete for the "prize".


She may well have taken this underground and her blocking him may be for your benefit only.


I think you may have confronted too soon - you should have stayed hidden in the gym and watched what went on afterwards. I don't think you have the whole truth.


Stay vigilant and discreet for now.


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## JohnA

KJ there are issues that caused your wife's behavior. Some have to do with you, some that have nothing to do. Never the less issues are like terminates. Left untreated they will destroy the home. You need to find and address these issues. You also need to take a positive approach towards them. Beating her up at this point will only create bigger issues. 

You read the WS needs to do the heavy lifting. This is because the BS needs to focus on the future not the past. The past happened avd only fools forget. To those that say forgive, I don't know forgive as much as accept and work towards a better future. 

Look into IC / MC, His Needs - Her Needs, 5 love languages (here is the web site Home | The 5 Love Languages® | Improving Millions of Relationships? One Language at a Time.)

I get the feeling your wife is shut down emotionally and feels trapped. Talk to her, be positive and offer to fix things. But do not for one second allow re-write and blame shift.


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## MattMatt

Let me see. How many married/committed women do I know who regularly use the gym?

Seven. That's colleagues and relatives of colleagues.

And how many of them have regular male companions other than their spouse/partner? *None*.

This nonsense needs to be stopped *now*, before any more damage is caused.


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## Chaparral

I think the men married to his other prey need to be warned in some fashion. Preferably anonymously.


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## 225985

MattMatt said:


> Let me see. How many married/committed women do I know who regularly use the gym?
> 
> Seven. That's colleagues and relatives of colleagues.
> 
> And how many of them have regular male companions other than their spouse/partner? *None*.
> 
> This nonsense needs to be stopped *now*, before any more damage is caused.


I am a married guy that had (past tense) a single female gym companion.

Of course, there is a reason why each of us joined TAM. :|


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## 225985

manfromlamancha said:


> Firstly, women know *a player* when they see one - that is not a deterrent but a lure. She probably knew *he was after other women too* but saw herself as "winning" something if she managed to attract him.


Not every guy, single or married, is a player. This could be one guy pinning after one woman at one time. 

Unless they BOTH are die hard fitness fans, like people who compete, there was without doubt sexual tension involving at least one of them, maybe both. Maybe not at start. But at the end of this, yes.


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## Decorum

Op has a bigger problem.
His wife isolated him from a part of her life so she could "be herself" with this guy.

That doesn't just go away because you catch them.

She has not honestly admitted to herself or to OP what she was doing.

Believing he was a creep isn't even half the battle, her wayward heart is the issue for her, and their marriage is the issue for them.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

The gym I go to has lots of women, but I never see any talking to the men. They usually come in pairs and just hang with each other, or they are women working out alongside their boyfriends or husbands. 

I would imagine there are "meat market" gyms out there, but not the one I go to, and it is a big gym.

If OPs wife was flirting and hanging out with this trainer, it is because she went to the gym for the express purpose of seeing him. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

Mrs. Conan and I went to the same female trainer for a while.

We usually went to the gym together but I trained with her a couple of times solo. People were all over the gym though.

Anyhow. She ended up getting a breast augmentation , didn't need it at all, and cheated on her husband with a different member and a fellow trainer.

Her husband was special forces but not a big guy. She ended up quitting after he had made some attempts to work out with her but after his D-day both of them were never seen again.

The other trainer was fired.

I don't get why gym rats, I am one, don't take their hot bodies and passions and pour them into their SO's.

I love the energy at a gym but it just needs directed home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan and I went to the same female trainer for a while.
> 
> We usually went to the gym together but I trained with her a couple of times solo. People were all over the gym though.
> 
> Anyhow. She ended up getting a breast augmentation , didn't need it at all, and cheated on her husband with a different member and a fellow trainer.
> 
> Her husband was special forces but not a big guy. She ended up quitting after he had made some attempts to work out with her but after his D-day both of them were never seen again.
> 
> The other trainer was fired.
> 
> I don't get why gym rats, I am one, don't take their hot bodies and passions and pour them into their SO's.
> 
> I love the energy at a gym but it just needs directed home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My FIL is ex-special forces. Short, thin and utterly ruthless. I bet the hunk underestimated the husband? Oh, boy. He was lucky to be left alive.


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## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> My FIL is ex-special forces. Short, thin and utterly ruthless. I bet the hunk underestimated the husband? Oh, boy. He was lucky to be left alive.


Agreed. That aside, I don't get why she showed such utter disrespect for her marriage and him.

If she wanted a gym rat, marry one. Don't cheat on a pretty cool man to get with a built dude.

People are strange.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

ConanHub said:


> Anyhow. She ended up getting a breast augmentation , didn't need it at all, and cheated on her husband with a different member and a fellow trainer.


I think this example was more about the trainer cheating with someone or someones at work rather than seeking a fitter body. She just happened to work in a gym. 

For OP, this gym setting is much more of a risk than if his wife was at a painting class and met another guy. The gyms offers sweating, exerting, endophins etc that are similar to sex and foreplay. OP's story is not over. That his wife was pissed off when she came home says a lot, unfortunately. He was successful in the confrontation and exposure. Still more to play out.


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## Tobyboy

Don't think for a minute that your wife hadn't seen his Facebook page already!!! And her running into him was no coincidence I'm sure. Like you told her, why just wave.....if nothing going on. Your wife is not as naive as you think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

blueinbr said:


> I think this example was more about the trainer cheating with someone or someones at work rather than seeking a fitter body. She just happened to work in a gym.
> 
> For OP, this gym setting is much more of a risk than if his wife was at a painting class and met another guy. The gyms offers sweating, exerting, endophins etc that are similar to sex and foreplay. OP's story is not over. That his wife was pissed off when she came home says a lot, unfortunately. He was successful in the confrontation and exposure. Still more to play out.


Definitely part of the example I was giving.

The gym is very sexually charged. She should have taken it home.

OP's wife is generating a lot of sexual energy and around a lot of it. Massive danger zone staying around the idiot at the gym.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

Nice job KJ. Not sure what your future holds but hope this was a one time thing


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## straightshooter

KC

The forum may rock, but I think you are way ahead of yourself if you are convinced there is not more to this story. 
The thing that concerns me from way back is that her girlfriends came at her on what she was doing. That does not ordinarily happen unless they know something really inappropriate is going on.

You basically caught her red handed, and probably should have waited to see what happened AFTER the class ended before confronting her. So basically she appears to be real sorry because she had competition for this OM.

The bottom line is your wife is mentally at a place where she is interested in other men and you need to get to the reason. She volunteered nothing on her own that you did not find out and most likely would have been having sex with him had you not listened to what you were being told here.

There are a million ways for them to go underground. You need to VAR her car until you find out if she is talking to him without you knowing, which should not take long. This blocking him on one form of social media means nothing.

And even if she is not talking to him, she may be telling a girlfriend what is going on. You thanked the forum for "saving" you on this one.
Learn the lesson and keep your head out of the sand.


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## jsmart

That's a great update. I'm happy you took action. As you can see, boldness gets results. 

I'm not convinced this is over though nor am I convinced this didn't go further than you think. If you read the threads started by WWs on the OW section of LS, you see that many keep going back to the trough of OM. Even the few remorseful ones fight this temptation. And I've long lost count of how many BHs come here for guidance on fighting what he thought was an EA, to only find out months or sometimes years later that it was actually a full blown sexual PA.

I agree with @straightshooter , that you should velcro a VAR under your wife's passenger seat. Woman talk. If she's not talking with Mr Zumba, there will probably be a "friend" that she confides in. Talking in car, is the perfect place for her to let her guard down. 

Besides being vigilant and watchful, it's time to up your game. Years of marriage can make us complacent. Reading the MMSL primer and starting a personal MAP was an EXCELLENT idea. This can be a guide to making your a better husband, father, and man.


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## JohnA

I agree with those warning you stopping (if you actually have) her from continuing down the path with gym rat is only a start. Issues are issues, adultery is adultery don't think because you stopped the EA/PA that the issues are settled. Your marriage is dying and is on life support. You and your wife need to figure out what the issues are and are they fixable. If you do not: she finds someone else to carry on with, she becomes a WAW, she decides to divorce you, she accepts a life of quiet desperation and despair. 

You might not realize it but in her own way she has been telling you for years how unhappy she is.


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## JohnA

On a side note about skinny short ex special forces type guys: they where not taught to fight. In fact they where taught not to fight. Instead they were taught to kill quickly and without a second thought. Big difference and a huge surprise when someone try's to fight with them.


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## Evinrude58

I'm thinking that now that op's wife has found out how exciting other men can be, she may have developed a taste for it.
But, kj did great on this confrontation. Her coming home all angry was absolute proof positive that this was an affair. 
He definitely needs to stay vigilAnt and solve whatever problem led to this, although I think there often isn't one.

He might develop a "friendship" with another woman just to show his wife how it feels. Nothing real, just a fake thing. Probably a stupid idea.

It would just be nice for op's wife to see how what she did made kj feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

ConanHub said:


> The gym is very sexually charged. She should have taken it home.
> 
> OP's wife is generating a lot of sexual energy and around a lot of it. Massive danger zone staying around the idiot at the gym.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree:

You are very right. Massive danger zone. That is why I had to stop with my female gym companion/co-worker. I am no idiot.


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## MattMatt

JohnA said:


> On a side note about skinny short ex special forces type guys: they where not taught to fight. In fact they where taught not to fight. Instead they were taught to kill quickly and without a second thought. Big difference and a huge surprise when someone try's to fight with them.


:iagree:

They are not taught self defence. They are taught to kill without weapons.


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## jdawg2015

OP, good move to confront. 

But you need to get to the underlying reason or this will come back again. And if she keeps showing bad boundaries then don't drive yourself crazy trying to monitor her and let her go. 

I hope you've had very clear discussion with her about boundaries. I would even be black and white about it. Texting other men? Nope. 1:1 with other men? nope. Those things are not advisable even in sound marriages, in your case I would tell her point plant that, "If you can't agree to those boundaries then this marriage is not something I can accept". And be willing to back it up.

She needs to hear things like, "do you know how close you came to losing me?". Now, you do this for two reasons. One, is so she understands how serious the situation was. Two, it makes if very easy the next time it happens since she can't blame-shift, etc. The boundary you seek is reasonable and explicit. If she messes up again, you don't have to debate in your head as you'll know she decided to be a cheater for a second time.

Your wife accepted the attention of another man. My advice for you two? Get counselling or this is going to fester. Why did she seek out the other guy and DO NOT let her lay all the blame on you. But you better spend the time to figure it out so there's no second chapter to your story. 

Good luck man!


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## See_Listen_Love

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> They are not taught self defence. They are taught to kill without weapons.


But also to use a weapon if it is available, and anything can be a weapon. A weapons is advantageous over no weapon.


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## 225985

So, @KJ_Simmons are things better now in the KJ household?


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## Divinely Favored

MattMatt said:


> JohnA said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note about skinny short ex special forces type guys: they where not taught to fight. In fact they where taught not to fight. Instead they were taught to kill quickly and without a second thought. Big difference and a huge surprise when someone try's to fight with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are not taught self defence. They are taught to kill without weapons.
Click to expand...

Some people just need killin'


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