# Not sure what to do........



## stupidman

I am so happy I found this place. Not that I revel in the misery of others but it certainly helps to know you are not alone. I will try to keep it as short as I can. 

My wife and I have dated since high school. In total, we have been together about 22 years. We have been married for the last 19. We were married quite young because we had a child. We both dropped out of college and moved in together to raise our child. We both agreed that we wanted our children to be close in age so we had our second child by age 22. There were a lot of tough financial years that followed but we truly loved each other and we both look back fondly on those times. Now the youngest is 1 year away from college and we will have an empty nest by age 40. 

Starting so young certainly brought some challenges. I had to work much harder to get ahead at work. All of our friends were out having a good time while we were raising kids. It was tough to make friends with older parents who had kids. Finances were tight, which for a long time prevented us from going on vacations or out for nice dinners, etc. 

I still wouldn't change any of it for the world. As I said, we were truly happy. 

During that time my wife did consistently ask that I take her out more and that I worked less. As I said, I did have to work a lot and actually worked 2 jobs for a couple years while she stayed home with our first for the first 2 years. That was something that was important to her and I did what I had to to make it happen. I admit to being a bit of a workaholic but I never missed a sporting, boyscouts, school event except on the few occasions that I was travelling for work. As far as taking her out more the kids schedule, my work schedule, and the general lack of funds tended to get in the way. I should have probably tried a little harder, but sometimes life just got in the way. We were happy, and my wife confirms she was also happy during this time. 

About 4 years ago I took on a new role at work that was very demanding. There were weeks that I literally worked 80 hours stopping only for the most basic human functions. The economy was rough on our industry. We had to let some people go in at a couple of different times which usually resulted in me trying to pick up the slack because, of course, I also couldn't pay my employees overtime. I was miserable but I am not the kind of person that can leave a job undone. At the first opportunity I took a different management role that was less demanding. I do still put in 50 hour weeks and spend time on my laptop almost every day of the week at home but I made this move specifically to be able to spend more time with my family. 

The issue is, my wife says it's too late. I haven't actually had the ILYB speech (I had to think about that acronym for a minute, I swear you guys have your own language here) but something similar. She says that she still loves me and wants to be with me but doesn't feel close to me. She blames it on all the years that I worked too much. She has even re-written a lot of the early years to seem like I was never around. Like I said before, I never missed a kids event, I picked the kids up from daycare/school almost every day (she would take them in the morning), I would go outside and play with the kids all the time (one of the perks of being a young dad), etc. etc.. 

We had this discussion in January. At that time she was suggesting a separation. She thinks she just needs to "work on herself" and "find herself". I can understand her feelings, as we didn't really have the time to grow in to independent adults before we had the kids. I think with the empty nest just around the corner we are both trying to figure out what the rest of our life looks like. Still a lot of years ahead. The thing is, although I understand the feelings and even feel some of them, I know that I want to grow old with her. If we were to separate for a while I fear that one or the other of us will do something that might make it harder to find each other again.  I also think it would just make us grow further apart. 

Since that time I have gone out of my way to spend time with her..... to reconnect. We even spent an entire day together at a vineyard recently just talking and having a good time. 

So, my dilemma. We have not had meaningful sex since January. In fact, we have sex one time and she wasn't in to it. She does have a lot going on in her life including a medical issue that can be quite debilitating. She spends a lot of time working on this issue as it affects her neck and spine. If she doesn't do regular physical therapy, massage, yoga, stretching she can almost not function. It is a lot to deal with. I suspect that this is a big part of the reason that she doesn't think about sex. The issue is she claims it is because she doesn't feel close to me. I also think that since she can work out all the time and do yoga that it is not physically impossible for her to have sex. I feel selfish saying this, but I am just not ready for a sexless marriage. Even pushing 40 I have a healthy sexual appetite. 

My patience is waning. I am finding it harder and harder to force myself to appear happy when we are together. At the vineyard the other day, the subject of sex came up (not related to our sex life) and it made me sad. So much so that she could tell something was wrong but she (at least) pretended not to know what could have upset me. I know, I know it's always about sex with guys, right? That is not the case. Sex brings us closer together. There is a biological need to have sex. When you are getting sex, you really don't think about it that much. When you aren't, you think about it all the time. 

So I just don't know what my next move is? If it is because of her medical issues I want to be there for her. If it is because she doesn't feel close to me and needs to "find herself" do we get separated? Do I keep trying to pretend that I am happy and hope she finds her way back to me? I suggested therapy, but she keeps insisting that she thinks she needs to talk to someone on her own. That she needs to work through some issues. I have thought about maybe going to therapy myself to see if that would help (although telling my story here has already helped). I was thinking I would put the therapy appointments on our shared calendar to see if she might join eventually. I just don't know. If you read this far THANK YOU!. If you can offer any help or insight it would be greatly appreciated.


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## EleGirl

What you are going through is pretty common. People get married, have kids, have to work hard and just stop taking care of their relationship. Unfortunately most of us never have been told how nurture a relationship to have it last a lifetime.

While it's often said that once a woman has reached a certain point, she's done and there is not getting it back.. it's not true. It can be a fight to get the relationship back but it's perfectly possible.

The worst thing you could do right now is to have a separation. If you are not living together you two cannot work on your marriage. Most separations end in divorce. They are a stepping stone out of the relationship. Also, often when a person says that they want a separation, the purpose is to have an affair. It's a perfect cover for cheating.

It sounds like your wife has never worked outside the home. How is she going to support herself if she leaves? Does she expect you to pay for two homes? You say that she has physical problems. Can she work? 

There are two books that I think will help you.

"Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. Yes I know, you don't think she is having an affair. It does not matter and your wife's mind set and how she got to it is similar. So the info in the book will help you figure out what to do.

After that book, the next one is "His Needs, Her Needs". This is the book that every one of us should have read before we got married. But it's not too late to implement what it was to do and to rebuild passionate love in your marriage.

I hope you can get all back. The two of you are young and have a lot of life left to live.


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## turnera

stupidman said:


> During that time my wife did consistently ask that I take her out more and that I worked less.
> 
> As I said, I did have to work a lot and actually worked 2 jobs for a couple years while she stayed home with our first *for the first 2 years*.
> 
> I admit to being a bit of a workaholic but I *never missed a sporting, boyscouts, school event*
> 
> As far as taking her out more the kids schedule, my work schedule, and the general lack of funds tended to get in the way.
> 
> I should have probably tried a little harder, but sometimes life just got in the way.
> 
> I literally worked 80 hours. I was miserable but I am not the kind of person that can leave a job undone. At the first opportunity I took a different management role that was less demanding. I do still put in 50 hour weeks and spend time on my laptop almost every day of the week at home *but I made this move specifically to be able to spend more time with my family*.
> 
> my wife says it's too late


Ok, first, let's assume she's not cheating. There's a good chance she is, but that's for later.

Right now, I want you to look at what I pulled out and tell me what you see. I see a man who made choice after choice after choice to prioritize his life into what made HIM happy, not what made his wife happy. Don't tell me you worked to please her. That's bullshyte. You admit yourself that you're a workaholic. Even when you brag about changing jobs 'to be with the family' you're not really WITH them - you're on your laptop. You put kids ahead of her. You put work ahead of her. You put your pride ahead of her. She waited patiently for 20+ years for you to remember she was in the room. And now you're surprised she's leaving? smh


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## stupidman

EleGirl said:


> It sounds like your wife has never worked outside the home. How is she going to support herself if she leaves? Does she expect you to pay for two homes? You say that she has physical problems. Can she work?
> 
> There are two books that I think will help you.


She only stayed home for the first 2 years. She now has a very good career. 



EleGirl said:


> There are two books that I think will help you.


I just downloaded his needs, her needs. Thanks for the advice. I honestly don't think she is having an affair but I will also check out the other book as well. She says she just wants to be alone. I have done a little snooping and haven't seen anything that worries me. I think her issue is a combination of emotional ones. Her medical issues coupled with getting older are causing her to look at her life and say "how did I get here"? I feel that way sometimes too so I understand. The last 20 years raising kids have just flown by. One day you wake up and realize you are older and you really haven't done much in your life. She fantasizes about a high power career with travel abroad, etc. and doesn't want to have to worry about me. The idea of focusing on ourselves for a few years appeals to me too, but I also know that when I am 80 years old and sitting on my front porch I want her there. If we go our own way for a bit, I don't think we will find our way back to each other. 

When my wife asked for a separation my exact words were "we might as well move forward with the divorce then". I don't think it could ever work out the way I want if we spent more time apart. She agreed and since then I have done everything I can to give her what she needs. I am just getting bitter because I am not getting what I need. I don't know if I should give her more space or try harder?


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## stupidman

turnera said:


> Ok, first, let's assume she's not cheating. There's a good chance she is, but that's for later.
> 
> Right now, I want you to look at what I pulled out and tell me what you see. I see a man who made choice after choice after choice to prioritize his life into what made HIM happy, not what made his wife happy. Don't tell me you worked to please her. That's bullshyte. You admit yourself that you're a workaholic. Even when you brag about changing jobs 'to be with the family' you're not really WITH them - you're on your laptop. You put kids ahead of her. You put work ahead of her. You put your pride ahead of her. She waited patiently for 20+ years for you to remember she was in the room. And now you're surprised she's leaving? smh


Wow, pretty harsh but I can take it. I understand the point you are making and have looked at it from her point of view and agree with you for the most part. I did not make her priority one. Believe it or not, I also did not make myself priority one.

I do think you are being a little cynical though. I did work to please her. She likes nice things. We often joke that I could live in a hole in the wall and be happy. A high paying job was never on of my goals. In fact, I thought I wanted to be a starving artist before we had our first child. We both put our kids before each others needs, not just me. They were our life for a very long time. I have always paid her a great deal of attention but just didn't take her out enough, etc. The last 4 years have been really tough at work and I am certainly not "bragging" about the new job to try and make myself sound better than I am in this relationship. I have my faults and I admit to them freely. 

I do think that some people here jump to the cheating conclusion way too fast. We are having a tough time, but it is not like that. She has some emotional things that she needs to work on and if she is agreeable we have some things that we need to work on together. She wants to be happy. She wants me to be happy. Right now, she is just not happy with her life. She is a wonderful person. Honest, sweet, selfless, would give you the shirt off of her back kind of person (damn I wish I could see that again ;-)). Believe it or not, I am a good person too. 

Thanks for telling the truth the way you see. It does help me to try to see things from her perspective a little better. You are right, she has said that I always chose work over her.

btw, what does smh mean? I am still trying to understand all of the acronyms.


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## turnera

smh = shaking my head (in disbelief)

Sorry for the harshness, but the marriage you described is EXACTLY the kind of marriage that pushes the wife out the door. In fact, if you were to read one of the dozens of books about walkaway wives, you'd find this wife: gets married, has kids, takes on the 'female' roles while the man goes out and conquers the world, woman either stays a SAHM or else gets a job but ALSO still has all the duties of the SAHM, so she's worked twice as hard, all the while the man is still going out and doing all the things that make him feel fulfilled - rising the corporate ladder, coaching the soccer team, showing up for trophy nights - while she gets 95% of the day-to-day raising of the kids...and none of the man she THOUGHT she was marrying (the one who dated her, flattered her, wanted to spend time with her). She complains and he explains it away, saying 'babe, I GOTTA work 60 hours this week' as if that writes off her feeling abandoned. And then he forgets she complained at all; in fact, if you asked him, he'd say he has a GREAT marriage. Sure he does - he's still being fulfilled at all levels and getting kudos through work and kids' successes and a wife holding down the fort for him.

And then he's shocked when she finally says she's had enough, she's waited 20 years for him to wake up and care about her. 

The problem is, in most cases, these women have been slowly falling out of love for their man. At first, they make excuses. Well, we need the money; maybe later he'll have time to rub MY back. Well, he's stressed from all the hours; maybe later he'll take me out on a real date so I can get one hour away from the kids. Well, the kids come first, right? Well, this is how all marriages go, I guess. And at each level, her desire for him wanes a little bit more, until she wakes up one day and says, wth, why am I even here? What am *I* getting out of this? And then she divorces him. Because by the time he finally wakes up and sees what he's done, she has LONG been out of love with him. So there IS no enticing her back. To what? Twenty more years of being ignored? Oh, you're going to change? Yeah, where have I heard THAT before? No thanks, I'll have better luck on my own.

Now, the reason we bring up cheating is this: When a woman's love bank has been depleted to the extent that your wife's has, all it takes is a single sentence from some guy, some coworker, to light that spark back up in her, to get her to suddenly think, yeah, what ABOUT me? And if that guy goes so far as to ask her about life, or her family, or anything, suddenly, _she has an outlet_. And you have no IDEA how strong that allure is, just to have someone actually ask about you and your feelings...and CARE. Most people never intend to cheat; most people edge into it sideways, drawn in by those feelings, that need to be wanted, to even be NOTICED. It literally IS a drug, and the cheater a drug addict. And it often looks just LIKE a walkaway wife; except she quits telling you the truth.

I just watched my SIL do this to my brother. No WAY would I have ever DREAMED she would cheat; salt of the earth and all. And yet all it took was my brother always naysaying HER ideas and pushing HIS, and then that one boyfriend from junior high she lost to show up, and bam! She's gone.


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## stupidman

A lot of what you just said is spot on. I know it. The holding down the fort thing is a little off because I have always shared equally in all matters at home. Cooking, cleaning, raising kids, etc. My extra hours at work have only ever affected my own personal time. Ie, no hobbies, no hanging with my friends, etc. etc. If I wasn't working I was helping around the house. She also has a career that she focuses attention on. 

I have always paid attention to her. I compliment her all of the time. She is a beautiful woman and is quite accustomed to receiving compliments from other men. Even when she gained 80 lbs with our first child and 60 with our second my physical attraction to her never waned. It doesn't matter if she gained 150 lbs, sex and love with her are bigger than physical appearances. 

You are right though, she has basically said that she has just slowly been growing apart from me. She hasn't said she doesn't love me, just that she doesn't feel close to me. 

The thing is, I have not always been fulfilled in this relationship. I made excuses for it as well..... kids, job, etc.. The difference is I don't harbor any resentment for it. It hasn't built up and caused me to fall out of love with her. I love her, period. She is a part of me. I am sure your parents or other family members have done things that you resent, but do you just stop loving them? 

So, is there any hope of winning her back? I hope so, but I can't imagine my bitterness over the sex thing is going to help. Do I just keep pretending to be happy or do I give her the space and hope she finds her way back to me? I am taking up a few hobbies and doing more with friends. I think to some extent I am doing it to kind of make a point that I can move on. I don't want to seem pathetic and needy. I want her forever, but not if we are going to be unhappy or if she is just going to resent me even more in 10 years when she still wonders what life could have been like without me. 

Still confused


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## turnera

Ok, then, let's assume she's not 100% gone. What do to? The first thing I'd say is to educate yourself on what DOES make a marriage work, for both people. The most important book I know of is His Needs Her Needs. Both of you should read it, but for now, read it yourself. It explains the basic psychology of why people get married and why (or if) they stay married. Basic, but powerful stuff. Let me know when you've read it (not that big of a book).

btw, the reason I wanted you to recognize when I was saying before is that you have an attitude, as we all do, about who's doing what wrong. It's human nature to pump yourself up. Even if you SAY you're accepting your fault in a situation, you really aren't, unless you've hit rock bottom. And until you tear off the pretense of 'if only she would do such and such,' you can never truly be honest with yourself OR her about the real situation. You know, there's her truth, and your truth, and then there's the REAL truth in the middle. Accept that there's a real truth, that you're both at fault, and work from THAT place. Otherwise, if you go into this saying 'well, she needs to...' - you will NEVER achieve your goal. Just trying to keep you honest.


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## wolf larson

Stupidman, can you tell us a little more about the medical? Sounds a little bit like ankylosing spondylitis or some other form of inflammatory arthritis. Consider the impact of her diagnoses. She has just been given a very real expiration date regarding her health. The impact of that is huge! My bet is that a reevaluation of her life is currently happening. Most simply, she is looking at needing a lot of care in the future and well...you have to work. So to survive she might want to move on and find someone willing to take care of her while she still can.


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## Iver

Download Athol Kays MMSL - may have some helpful pointers for you.

Is weight an issue for either of you? Sometimes this is the straw that broke the camels back - just not finding a partner attractive. It also can impact other health issues significantly as well.


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## areyouserious?

hi there. I can understand what you are dealing with because I was a wife who stayed at home with the kids while the husband worked. It was what he wanted, and for a while I was okay with it. It gave me a chance to bond with my daughters, keep the house up and what not. But there came a time when I realized that being with my daughters wasn't enough. I needed "adult" time - intellectual conversation, stimulation, and together time with my husband. 
His job not only required long hours, but often times several weeks away from home. I began to resent it and eventually him. Although I knew that he was working to keep us afloat, I felt that there was a lot that was left up to me and it became quite stressful. He would call me from the road and tell me about all of the things he and his crew would do after work, and he was in the company of his work friends while I was changing diapers, paying bills, making sure we had oil for heat, doing dishes and cleaning, etc. By the end of the day after the kids were asleep I was exhausted and there was really no time for me to have any kind of social life. I began to become depressed and felt very alone in our marriage. 
Eventually it took its toll. I decided to seek counseling because I honestly felt there was something wrong with me. Had his attitude toward my feelings been different maybe it would have worked but such was not the case in our particular situation. 

It sounds like you have made attempts at trying to make time for her while still expressing your needs. There is a chance that her needs are still not being met, thus she feels that perhaps going it alone for a while will give her a chance to experience life as an independent but it won't be easy. She's in love with the excitement of it all - excitement she isn't getting while being married. Separation doesn't necessarily mean the end though; but if you do decide to agree on a separation there has to be rules-- the obvious being that neither of you have extramarital affairs. She won't be finding herself (neither will you) if you're expending all of your emotions and feelings toward someone else. 

I may have missed it, but did you both try counseling? It's worth a shot if you both want to work on things. There are ways that you can rediscover each other. If you haven't, I would sincerely recommend it before calling it quits, especially because there are children involved.


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## ArmyofJuan

stupidman said:


> I do think that some people here jump to the cheating conclusion way too fast.


9 times out of 10 there is an affair going on. It takes a lot for a woman to leave the security of a marriage without some kind of emotional crutch so most end up having an exit affair to push them over the edge. Most men our blindsided by it since we don't want to believe our wives are capable of it. 

They all are.

Not saying that's the case but don't discount it so quickly.


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## stupidman

turnera said:


> Just trying to keep you honest.


I appreciate it, it really helps.


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## stupidman

wolf larson said:


> Stupidman, can you tell us a little more about the medical? Sounds a little bit like ankylosing spondylitis or some other form of inflammatory arthritis. Consider the impact of her diagnoses. She has just been given a very real expiration date regarding her health. The impact of that is huge! My bet is that a reevaluation of her life is currently happening. Most simply, she is looking at needing a lot of care in the future and well...you have to work. So to survive she might want to move on and find someone willing to take care of her while she still can.


It is cervical dystonia. It is not a death sentence but it will affect the quality of her life if she doesn't stay out in front of it. She will likely never need to be taken care of and pysically, she is in great shape right now. It causes her a lot of pain and discomfort and is usually a progressive disease which really depresses her. 

Funny you mention that maybe she is looking for someone to take care of her. I, in fact, worry that if I am not around who will take care of her? There are certainly nice guys out there, but there are also a bunch of aholes. What if we get separated and eventually divorce and she never finds someone else?


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## stupidman

Iver said:


> Download Athol Kays MMSL - may have some helpful pointers for you.
> 
> Is weight an issue for either of you? Sometimes this is the straw that broke the camels back - just not finding a partner attractive. It also can impact other health issues significantly as well.


No, she is drop dead gorgeous, and I pretty much look the same as we did when we first met 20+ years ago. I still have all of my hair, I used to be very athletic so certainly my muscle tone has diminished (long hours at work don't leave much time for workouts) but my weight is okay. I carry a little more than I should around the midsection but not something you can even really tell when I am dressed. I would like to lose about 10 lbs to get to where I need to be.


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## Iver

stupidman said:


> I, in fact, worry that if I am not around who will take care of her? There are certainly nice guys out there, but there are also a bunch of aholes. What if we get separated and eventually divorce and she never finds someone else?


Well, she is an adult. Adults generally know that there is a price to pay for poor decisions.


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## stupidman

areyouserious? said:


> I may have missed it, but did you both try counseling? It's worth a shot if you both want to work on things. There are ways that you can rediscover each other. If you haven't, I would sincerely recommend it before calling it quits, especially because there are children involved.


Thanks for the perspective, I appreciate it. We have talked about marriage counseling but she thinks it is something she needs to work on on her own. Kind of the whole it's not you it's me routine (although verbally she has told me that it's me). I have been thinking about going to counseling on my own and putting the appointments on our shared calendar. I want her to know that I am actively trying to work on it and maybe that will get her involved. She told me two months ago that she wanted to see someone on her own but hasn't actually taken action on it.


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## stupidman

LnghrnFan said:


> That said, I do think there is hope! If she will only go to counseling on her own, then let her do that. At least it's a step in the right direction. And you should go, as well. Focus on the issues in yourself until she's ready to work on the marriage.


That's good advice and appreciate the positivity. I am a positive person and will maintain hope until I know there is no hope.


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## Baablacksheep

Well you sure have gotten some 2x4 s here from some of the women posting !!! There is validity to the points of putting her first as you did when you were dating. And the trap of putting your children ahead everything else is also common, so don't feel like your unique in that. As a man I would argue that by working hard to provide for his family he is showing how much he cares for them. 
We [responsible] men take that role seriously. And again it's a common trap to fall into. A woman wants her man to not only care for her physical needs[ food, house, etc.] but to her, her emotional needs are just as important. We men tend to discount that and neglect it too often. Sounds like you both have a pretty busy life. Any chance that could be slowed down ? My wife and I have found happiness not in the things we possess, but in simply enjoying discussions as we sweep the pool, make supper together etc. Those 'little' things are important to a woman, they make her feel like you want to spend time with them, like they are important to you. I'd suggest the book 5 love languages. Particularly recommend taking the quiz that's associated with that. We did that and it really helped us understand each other better even after 20 years of marriage.


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## turnera

Correct. You also get the same outlook and types of quizzes with the HNHN book. Although I don't think 5LL has a Love Buster-type questionnaire and, given your situation, eliminating your Love Busters is probably more important at this stage than meeting her needs (love languages).


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## stupidman

Baablacksheep said:


> Well you sure have gotten some 2x4 s here from some of the women posting !!! There is validity to the points of putting her first as you did when you were dating. And the trap of putting your children ahead everything else is also common, so don't feel like your unique in that. As a man I would argue that by working hard to provide for his family he is showing how much he cares for them.
> We [responsible] men take that role seriously. And again it's a common trap to fall into. A woman wants her man to not only care for her physical needs[ food, house, etc.] but to her, her emotional needs are just as important. We men tend to discount that and neglect it too often. Sounds like you both have a pretty busy life. Any chance that could be slowed down ? My wife and I have found happiness not in the things we possess, but in simply enjoying discussions as we sweep the pool, make supper together etc. Those 'little' things are important to a woman, they make her feel like you want to spend time with them, like they are important to you. I'd suggest the book 5 love languages. Particularly recommend taking the quiz that's associated with that. We did that and it really helped us understand each other better even after 20 years of marriage.


We have talked a lot about selling the house and downsizing our life a bit. That would make me very happy. I would much rather spend our money and time together travelling and enjoying life then taking care of stuff. She seems to really like the idea. I started HNHN but will check out this book as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stupidman

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stupidman

Well I guess I should thank the cynics here for opening my eyes to the idea she might be having an affair. I started digging through the cell phone bill just to assure myself she wasn't. I found a number that she texted over 800 times (she only texted me about 500). I did a reverse lookup on the number and figured out who this guy was. Even drove to his house yesterday to check it out. I slept maybe 2 hours last night fretting about how I was going to confront her. I felt so betrayed but I didn't really want to confront her until I had some real evidence. The worst thing I could do was accuse her and be wrong about it. Oh my God my life is over.
















The only problem is it turns out it was one of my kids friends. When I thought I was downloading just her records to run some formulas in excel it downloaded the whole family's records. 

True story.

So thanks for making me feel like an ahole ;-). Seriously, I didn't find anything suspicious but the book so far has opened my eyes a bit to why women cheat.


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## EleGirl

stupidman said:


> The only problem is it turns out it was one of my kids friends. When I thought I was downloading just her records to run some formulas in excel it downloaded the whole family's records.
> 
> True story.


LOL .. this is why we usually tell people to not confront until they have very solid evidence, think it through and have a plan.


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## stupidman

EleGirl said:


> LOL .. this is why we usually tell people to not confront until they have very solid evidence, think it through and have a plan.


Thankfully I didn't confront her 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Ask the mods to move this to the infidelity thread section; you'll get better help there.


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## stupidman

turnera said:


> Ask the mods to move this to the infidelity thread section; you'll get better help there.


Why infidelity? We are on the verge of separation, but no one is cheating (I think).


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## turnera

Oh, sorry, didn't finish reading. Ignore me!


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## Baablacksheep

stupidman said:


> We have talked a lot about selling the house and downsizing our life a bit. That would make me very happy. I would much rather spend our money and time together travelling and enjoying life then taking care of stuff. She seems to really like the idea. I started HNHN but will check out this book as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess I'm guilty of sharing this because of my own experience... My way of feeling loved was physical touch, next was words of affirmation. So when I would hug my wife, touch her I was expressing what I thought was love that was easy to understand. But it never mattered much to her. If there was holding of hands, hugs, whatever, it was because I initiated. I felt she didn't love me. My wife's way of feeling loved was from acts of service. So she was always doing those to me. She felt like I didn't love her either. See,we were both doing things that made us feel loved to our partner, but we weren't speaking the same language. So now emptying the dishwasher, helping with the garden, all those 'little' things have taken on a hugely different meaning to me. If that's all it takes to make my wife feel love, by gosh you can bet I'm gonna hit that as hard as I can. And the last several months she has been much more physical. Just the other nite we were smooching in the kitchen, kids were downstairs playing Xbox. This previously cold woman started rubbing herself on her husband !!!!! Wow can you say hot \"/ BTW she would be embarrassed to know I said this. I

I guess my point is, you may be missing fulfilling her emotional needs and not be aware of it. I was, and regret I didn't have this info 20 years ago.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Stupidman*
> Her medical issues coupled with getting older are causing her to look at her life and say "how did I get here"?
> 
> She fantasizes about a high power career with travel abroad, etc. and doesn't want to have to worry about me.



*I bet that is a HUGE part of her state of mind.*


I really hope that she gets someone that can help her. It is obvious that you both cannot get your marriage out of the starting blocks. You have done everything you can do to help the marriage for 7 months and you have not got much improvement from her.


I can understand that her physical condition, her age, and your actions in the past that have been negative for her making life look pretty bleak. However, she needs to realize that all those situations are not going to do anything but put her down if she allows them to be prevalent in her thinking. Her allowing those negative thoughts to feed her discontentment with life is very counter productive and she will wind up the biggest loser if she allows that to continue. *Quality life is possible by taking positive steps now and in the future and the negative life is holding onto the negative past*.

We all get older, we all have been unfulfilled by the actions of our spouse, and can find things in out past that are negative. Although she is facing a difficult time in her life right now, she is not unique. Many have faced what she is facing and some even worse situation than she has had. She needs help so that she can change her thinking and you are probably not the one to do that. She basically has to be told in a way that she will accept it that she has to change her thinking and actions so that SHE CAN GET BETTER. *That is why profesional help is so needed with her. I think that it would be very risky for you to be her counselor or for your actions to be her total answer.*

The way that you have interacted with your wife in the past was not the best in fact you do need to try and do better. From your posts it seems that you have been doing better for over 6 months. Keep doing everything you can to help her and yourself. Make a plan for yourself in case she is going to seperate from you. She cannot be 100% of your life. You are at a disadvantage as you are more emotionally needy of her than she is of you. *She is also hurting you by rejecting you so you have to have several plans. One to try and get your marriage much more intimate emotionally and sexually and one where you have to plan for your life without your wife.*


Although you have made some mistakes with your past actions with your wife you also have given a lot to your family in the past and now. You are not a stupid man and there are many women that would be appreciative with what you have to offer.


I hope that your wife gets the right help and you both come back together in a more emotional and sexual way.* She really needs to change from what you have said about her below:*

*



At that time she was suggesting a separation. She thinks she just needs to "work on herself" and "find herself".


She says she just wants to be alone.

she still wonders what life could have been like without me.

Click to expand...

*


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## stupidman

Baablacksheep said:


> I guess my point is, you may be missing fulfilling her emotional needs and not be aware of it. I was, and regret I didn't have this info 20 years ago.


I wish I had it 20 years ago too. I started reading the book suggested here and this seems to be the underlying sentiment so far. The more I think about it, the more I realize I probably haven't done a great job of giving her what she needs. I just hope it is not too late for me to try. 

I know that people are going to bash me for this but I once said to her "It is not my job to make you happy". Now in context it wasn't as bad as it sounds, I was simply making the point that she needed friends, hobbies, etc. She took it very badly at the time. I still regret to this day that I said it and wonder if she still holds on to that.


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## stupidman

Mr. Blunt, appreciate the encouragement and the honesty. I am working on my faults and can only hope she responds in kind. I don't think there is any chance without the counseling but she hasn't really made a move to go. I hope that if she continues to see me trying really hard that she might. I will just grin and bear the sex thing for now. 

We do have a date at a nice hotel in August. She got a free night for some reason and actually invited me instead of one of her girlfriends. I only hope that we have somehow broken the ice on the sex thing by then or the whole thing might just end up awkward. I am going to take it as a sign that she IS trying.


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## stupidman

turnera said:


> Oh, sorry, didn't finish reading. Ignore me!


lol, sorry. That was my feeble attempt at being funny .


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## turnera

stupidman said:


> I wish I had it 20 years ago too. I started reading the book suggested here and this seems to be the underlying sentiment so far. The more I think about it, the more I realize I probably haven't done a great job of giving her what she needs. I just hope it is not too late for me to try.
> 
> I know that people are going to bash me for this but I once said to her "It is not my job to make you happy". Now in context it wasn't as bad as it sounds, I was simply making the point that she needed friends, hobbies, etc. She took it very badly at the time. I still regret to this day that I said it and wonder if she still holds on to that.


man, it is NOT your job to make her happy. Happy only comes from within YOURSELF. It IS your job to meet her top 5 Emotional Needs, however. SHE is then responsible for deciding if she's happy. Don't confuse the two.

And she DOES need outside friends and activities and hobbies. It's unhealthy to expect your spouse to provide you all your stimulation and needs.


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## stupidman

turnera said:


> man, it is NOT your job to make her happy. Happy only comes from within YOURSELF. It IS your job to meet her top 5 Emotional Needs, however. SHE is then responsible for deciding if she's happy. Don't confuse the two.
> 
> And she DOES need outside friends and activities and hobbies. It's unhealthy to expect your spouse to provide you all your stimulation and needs.


I agree, which is why I said it to her at the time but if you look at that statement out of context (which she has been known to do) it could be damaging. Just thought of it while reflecting on what got us here.


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## stupidman

5 Reasons You Should Have Sex With Your Husband Every Night | Meg Conley

Good read for all the ladies ;-)

Seriously, I have been reading the book when I can. So far this week I have given her 2 back massages while talking to her about her day, bought her flowers, and randomly called her just to see how she was doing. Still no sex, or any indication whatsoever that she even appreciated it but still trying............


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## turnera

Try to remember that what YOU think she's wanting may not be what SHE's actually wanting. That's why Harley's LB and EN questionnaires can help with.


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## stupidman

I know you are right but if I ask her what she wants won't that defeat the purpose. If she tells me what she needs and then I give it to her she will just think he only did it because I asked him to not because he wanted to.


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## weightlifter

1 whatever you do. Do not separate.
2 keep your eyes open and your mouth shut! Btw workplace affairs are hideously hard to prove.
3 I don't see a reason to use electronic means but keep your eyes open for changes like dressing better, weight loss, sudden late nights, or guarding her phone.
4 should you find red flags go 007 hard before confronting. "Golly honey this looks suspicious" is a disaster. Real confrontations involve, "I know you fvcked joe azzwhole august 10 at noon at the notel motel." And a picture of them going into the room.


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## turnera

No. Print out the questionnaires and ask her to fill them out with you. Puts you both on the same team. Doing things for her just to surprise her is a covert contract, done to GET you something.


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## stupidman

I just don't know how to broach the subject with her. She is currently focusing on her not the marriage. I think I just need to put my foot down and let her know that I am leaving. I will wait until after the hotel date and see how that goes but if it doesn't go well I think it may be the end of the line for me...............


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## turnera

Why not just tell her now? What are you afraid of?


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## stupidman

_Posted via Mobile Device_

I am mostly afraid that in her current state she would just say okay. Then I would have to leave or appear weak. I am also still hopeful that my extra efforts don't go unnoticed forever. Next weekend we are spending a day and a night together at a nice hotel. That would be the perfect time for her to at least try to reconnect with me. If we don't I just don't think I can take the rejection any longer. I don't just mean sex, all I need is for her to at least seem happy to be with me. That would be enough for now.


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## stupidman

Well we had to reschedule the hotel thing due to some conflicts (her schedule, not mine). The good news is we still had sex and it was good. She seemed to be in to it . Question is, do I ask her how she feels about the relationship and still try to push for counseling or just cross my fingers and hope my efforts are paying off?


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## Machiavelli

Don't bring up the relationship as a conversation item, anymore. It makes you look really, really bad. Don't ask her to fill out a needs quiz. You read the book and figure it out based on how she responds to stuff. You've been married 22 years and if you can't guess the rest at this point, you're going to really bug her.

What you should be doing is upping your overall sex rank. Quit making lame ass excuses and get into the gym. If you exercise properly, you only need to be in there for 20 minutes 2X a week. You need to watch what you eat, too, but that's easy when you're motivated. See one of the following books: "The New HIT" (E Darden), "Heavy Duty" (Mike Mentzer), "HIT the Mike Mentzer Way." At age 40 you're just a kid, so you'll be able to add muscle relatively fast, compared to some of the old bulls I train. The goal is a 44" chest and a 32" waist. This basically triggers the female autonomic system to be predisposed to attraction unless you blow it by some from of inane "gamma or delta" behavior. Women go ape when they run their hands over you hard pecs and abs, so get some. Once other women start turning their heads in your direction, your wife will rediscover her libido. 

Have you read MMSLP?


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## GusPolinski

Machiavelli said:


> Don't bring up the relationship as a conversation item, anymore. It makes you look really, really bad. Don't ask her to fill out a needs quiz. You read the book and figure it out based on how she responds to stuff. You've been married 22 years and if you can't guess the rest at this point, you're going to really bug her.
> 
> What you should be doing is upping your overall sex rank. Quit making lame ass excuses and get into the gym. *If you exercise properly, you only need to be in there for 20 minutes 2X a week.* You need to watch what you eat, too, but that's easy when you're motivated. See one of the following books: "The New HIT" (E Darden), "Heavy Duty" (Mike Mentzer), "HIT the Mike Mentzer Way." At age 40 you're just a kid, so you'll be able to add muscle relatively fast, compared to some of the old bulls I train. The goal is a 44" chest and a 32" waist. This basically triggers the female autonomic system to be predisposed to attraction unless you blow it by some from of inane "gamma or delta" behavior. Women go ape when they run their hands over you hard pecs and abs, so get some. Once other women start turning their heads in your direction, your wife will rediscover her libido.
> 
> Have you read MMSLP?


Mach, we need to talk.


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## turnera

You don't ASK her anything. You SHOW her what you want in your marriage, tell her you're going to counseling, and set the date.


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## stupidman

Machiavelli said:


> Don't bring up the relationship as a conversation item, anymore. It makes you look really, really bad. Don't ask her to fill out a needs quiz. You read the book and figure it out based on how she responds to stuff. You've been married 22 years and if you can't guess the rest at this point, you're going to really bug her.
> 
> What you should be doing is upping your overall sex rank. Quit making lame ass excuses and get into the gym. If you exercise properly, you only need to be in there for 20 minutes 2X a week. You need to watch what you eat, too, but that's easy when you're motivated. See one of the following books: "The New HIT" (E Darden), "Heavy Duty" (Mike Mentzer), "HIT the Mike Mentzer Way." At age 40 you're just a kid, so you'll be able to add muscle relatively fast, compared to some of the old bulls I train. The goal is a 44" chest and a 32" waist. This basically triggers the female autonomic system to be predisposed to attraction unless you blow it by some from of inane "gamma or delta" behavior. Women go ape when they run their hands over you hard pecs and abs, so get some. Once other women start turning their heads in your direction, your wife will rediscover her libido.
> 
> Have you read MMSLP?


Not sure what MMSLP is? I admit I had to go measure after reading your post. I am at 43" with zero puffing and have a 33" waist. I am about 6' tall and weigh 185. As I said before I could stand to lose about ten more lbs. At one point I was up to 205 which really didn't look good so I have been watching it. I don't think there is any reason to think my appearance has anything to do with it and tend to view that is pretty shallow thinking. I didn't find my wife any less attractive when she put on weight here and there throughout our marriage. We are going to get older and our bodies are going to start falling apart at some point but I think love is bigger than that. I think the big chest and tight abs are great for the initial attraction but lasting love takes a whole lot more than that.

I do agree that I shouldn't say anything to her. Despite my posts here my normal tendency throughout our marriage has not to be needy and just kind of act like things don't bother me. This has mostly resulted in her being the one who pursues. The issue is the strong silent type isn't really working anymore. I hear lots of people saying that you need to talk these things out so I am now confused about the best course of action in my relationship. 

You would think that 20+ years would make it easy to understand what is going through her head but she has changed and may be going through a midlife crisis. I just don't want to lose her in the process.


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## stupidman

turnera said:


> You don't ASK her anything. You SHOW her what you want in your marriage, tell her you're going to counseling, and set the date.


You have provided some really sound advice and I really appreciate it. I may hold off on the marriage counseling for now as I think there are a lot of other things going on with her. I don't want to put additional pressure on her to meet my needs while she sorts things out. She is depressed and might be having a midlife crisis. Sex really isn't the most important thing (easier said after recent sex) and as long as I don't have any reason to believe she is straying I just want to help get her happy again. Maybe if she can find happiness again things will be like they used to.


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## turnera

MMSLP is this book. You need to read it, like yesterday.

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life


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## Machiavelli

GusPolinski said:


> Mach, we need to talk.


No, you just need to pick up one of those books. They're all updated versions of Arthur Jones' _Nautilus Bulletins_ from the late 60's and early 70's. As Jones put it, exercise should be brief, infrequent, and intense. The problem is, that kind of exercise makes it tough for the "health" industry to bilk the public.


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## Machiavelli

stupidman said:


> Not sure what MMSLP is? I admit I had to go measure after reading your post. I am at 43" with zero puffing and have a 33" waist. I am about 6' tall and weigh 185. As I said before I could stand to lose about ten more lbs. At one point I was up to 205 which really didn't look good so I have been watching it.


You're very close to having an optimal physique. Now harden it up using weights as outlined in any of the books I mentioned.



stupidman said:


> I don't think there is any reason to think my appearance has anything to do with it and tend to view that is pretty shallow thinking.


Don't live up to your handle. You need to read MMSLP so you can learn something about how and why women do what they do with regards to attraction and attachment. I don't agree with all of it, but he hits the high spots pretty well. 

My concept on it all is that if a woman has a man that she knows other women want, she's more likely to want to stay with that men. Hens tend to flock to one rooster. They reach a consensus on who is and is not attractive. If your wife doesn't see other women expressing interest, it's easy for her to decide that she's not got a good one. Incidentally, women tend to get a wandering eye at 4-7 and 12-14 years, according to various "experts." Look up 7-year itch and start reading. This is because of body chemistry combined with unrealistic fairy tale expectations of marriage being deflated.



stupidman said:


> I didn't find my wife any less attractive when she put on weight here and there throughout our marriage.


You are a man. Men and women have different reproductive strategies and goals. It is a mistake to project male actions and motivations onto women. They have their own agenda.



stupidman said:


> We are going to get older and our bodies are going to start falling apart at some point but I think love is bigger than that.


You really shouldn't have a problem with "falling apart" in the modern world (with proper eating and exercise) until well into your 70's, unless you're very unlucky.



stupidman said:


> I think the big chest and tight abs are great for the initial attraction but lasting love takes a whole lot more than that.


That's the problem. Modern marriage is based on "romantic love," which in knightly times was something reserved for adulterous affairs. Until recently, marriage was a contract between a man and a woman and their respective families. Romantic love is not about the long haul, it's about raw short term sexual attraction. However, if a woman has the feeling she has a man who is so high value among other women that she can be replaced in five minutes, her "romantic" inclinations stay properly directed for a very long time. 



stupidman said:


> I do agree that I shouldn't say anything to her. Despite my posts here my normal tendency throughout our marriage has not to be needy and just kind of act like things don't bother me. This has mostly resulted in her being the one who pursues. The issue is the strong silent type isn't really working anymore. I hear lots of people saying that you need to talk these things out so I am now confused about the best course of action in my relationship.


Women imagine they want a sensitive man who talks about the relationship. When they get one in real life, they don't like it. Much much ink has been spilled over this phenomenon. Most wives have a natural tendency to lose attraction to their H over time for various reasons, both isolated and socialized wives experience this. This is why there are so many jokes about it among men who complain they aren't getting any.



stupidman said:


> You would think that 20+ years would make it easy to understand what is going through her head but she has changed and may be going through a midlife crisis. I just don't want to lose her in the process.


She's not through with menopause yet is she? See, that's a big issue with women that men don't face. It's all about reproduction and is a very basic, fundamental driver. As for your last sentence, you must be willing to burn the village to save the village.


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## stupidman

Thanks Mach, I will pick up the book. I am working on the 10 lbs and muscle tone anyway so I will let you know how the experiment goes. I have also picked up a few new hobbies and am spending more time with friends to just kind of let her know that I am capable of a life without her. I do still notice looks from other women from time to time so I am not doing too bad.


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## Machiavelli

stupidman said:


> Thanks Mach, I will pick up the book. I am working on the 10 lbs and muscle tone anyway so I will let you know how the experiment goes. I have also picked up a few new hobbies and am spending more time with friends to just kind of let her know that I am capable of a life without her. *I do still notice looks from other women from time to time so I am not doing too bad.*


Excellent. The little bit of chiseling you need will pay big dividends. While your at it, do a wardrobe overhaul (when you go out in public dress like a guy 10 yrs younger and 3X richer) and change your hair. Even if you don't like the new look, keep it for a while. It sends a message.


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