# How to manipulate your spouse and get more sex!



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I grew up in my career as a salesman and learned that the rules of algebra apply to everything in life. Everything negative can be made into a positive if you look at it from the other side of the equation. For those in a HD/LD situation to where one spouse has a higher desire for sex than the other, the lower desire spouse usually claims that the higher desire spouse is manipulating the relationship for more sex. 

What do you do, because admit it, if it could be done we would indeed do it? Odds are that is what was happening. Also known as the "covert contract" of doing something nice and expecting something (hope it is sexual) in return! 

If I have learned one thing it would be the power of validation! If your spouse accuses you of doing something manipulative to get more sex, allow yourself to get caught! Even if it is NOT the case, pretend that that was exactly what you were doing! THIS will be very validating to the LD partner because this person will finally feel validated in feeling how they feel. NOW... here is the important part and where the algebra comes in handy. Claim that you are BEHIND on your ability to manipulate your spouse for sex and that whatever it is you were doing is a partial payment to try and catch up for sex that has already occurred. Then complain that past sex has been way too good and that it has been making the problem worse and that you will never be caught up and actually get to do manipulative things that will result in more sex. You will alway be behind and playing catch up by doing nice things to try to even the score. 

Then look at your spouse and ask if you can increase your credit limit! 

So what happened here is that you took something that would historically be a point of argument, acknowledged it and twisted it into a compliment! I did this to my wife the other day and she is all too aware of my modem operatum, but she smiled at me and said, "looking at things that way might actually work for you and get you more sex!" 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

A catchy title! 👍

Let those who think everything is a manipulation commence throwing rocks.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

great ideas.

i have two corollaries to this:
1) often LD women CAN be tricked into getting horny. as in playing new age music, lighting some candles, massaging her whole body with scented oils....then after turning her on, then start massaging he private bits, and often you have turned her on enough to want sex and actually enjoy it. just expect the next day to have to do it all over again.

or 

2) employ some of the psychological tricks they advise a guy to use on youtube, in videos titled like: "how to seduce an older woman". There is a complex series of flattery and ignoring her that gets the female mind wanting you to pursue her....


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*How to manipulate your spouse and get more sex!*

Why on EARTH would I want to do that?


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I don't get this thread at all. I'll let you guys duke it out.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Speaking of rascals.....😆


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

If this is how I have to get sex then I will definitely pass .... sounds terrible 😢


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> *How to manipulate your spouse and get more sex!*
> 
> Why on EARTH would I want to do that?


Agree. Playing games/being manipulative seems unwise.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I grew up in my career as a salesman and learned that the rules of algebra apply to everything in life. Everything negative can be made into a positive if you look at it from the other side of the equation. For those in a HD/LD situation to where one spouse has a higher desire for sex than the other, the lower desire spouse usually claims that the higher desire spouse is manipulating the relationship for more sex.
> 
> What do you do, because admit it, if it could be done we would indeed do it? Odds are that is what was happening. Also known as the "covert contract" of doing something nice and expecting something (hope it is sexual) in return!
> 
> ...


Hahahaha! Love you man!😁


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Has any one ever, in the history of the world, given sex without the Expectation of affection?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

I always wondered if THIS would work???


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> A catchy title! 👍
> 
> Let those who think everything is a manipulation commence throwing rocks.


I just use those rocks to add on to the stonework of my patio in my backyard!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> Has any one ever, in the history of the world, given sex without the Expectation of affection?


Well, in my younger days.....


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Manipulation is tricking someone. Lying to them. *Getting them to do something they don’t want to do.*


My wife doesn't want to think of herself as beautiful. I think she is, but she generally refuses to believe me. So I do resort to manipulation in order to get her to believe the truth.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

It’s not manipulative if you are giving Mrs.BadSanta what she needs. 😆 

Sometimes wives aren’t aware (consciously) how bad they need us. Our affection, validation, and prowess (shall we say) can’t just be found anywhere. This is like the only thing wives somehow fail to articulate. 😆

They make us think it’s just US that need them… don’t buy it! 😂


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> It’s not manipulative if you are giving Mrs.BadSanta what she needs. 😆
> 
> Sometimes wives aren’t aware (consciously) how bad they need us. Our affection, validation, and prowess (shall we say) can’t just be found anywhere. This is like the only thing wives somehow fail to articulate. 😆
> 
> They make us think it’s just US that need them… don’t buy it! 😂


Durn, I'll agree with you on that 👍


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Yes. Look at the number of swingers on this board alone. There's a whole section of society for whom sex is like sneezing or stretching... it's a thing that feels good. Their partner is a masturbatory aid, there's no spiritual or emotional connection between them. They're no closer to their sex partner than they are to a tennis buddy. Outside of sex they might like the person, but sex has no role in any emotional connection they have with someone.


Define what degree of affection. Likely pertinent.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Affection would be physical contact motivated by emotional attachment.


Getting closer to the truth with every post. 
I like this definition of Physical affection
I believe there is non physical affection
For example verbal affection, and . . .
Body language affection (that one is hard to articulate)

So would your definition include sexual contact motivated by emotional attachment?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Manipulation is tricking someone. Lying to them. Getting them to do something they don’t want to do.
> 
> I will never understand someone who wants sex with someone who doesn’t want them.


To play devil's advocate, manipulation doesn't mean lie in every case. There are cads who don't hesitate to lie if it suits their need. However many humans use the truth often enough when attempting to manipulate another from start to finish. Both sexes.

In many cases the truths are used like battering rams.
Other cases, like a velvet glove.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You can try to soften it up any way you want to justify it. No one is perfectly honest when they are manipulating someone. Having a frank discussion about something to try to get someone to see your point of view is not manipulation. The words matter and if you try to tell me it's "manipulative" for my H to tell me I look pretty then you're telling me he doesn't really think I'm pretty, he just wants me to do something and is lying to me to get what he wants. If he's more effusive with compliments because he would like to engage in a little wiggle-brow stuff, that's not manipulation. He's being honest and hinting around, he's not trying to trick me.


I'm not trying to soften it up, why would I?

I have no dog in this hunt. I'm only pointing out that manipulation is the subject, and sadly it doesn't always include lying.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Not just sex in general but humorously both men and women fall into into the well I did this, that, etc and erroneously fall into the transactional sex relationship dance. Always a big mistake. But parties do so with truths.

Also, different situation; anyone who doesn't lay on the sweetness when circumstances warrant, doesn't want to get laid bad enough. So I'm with you there.
Sometimes it's not sweetness needed, sometimes it is, and all variations in between.
That's a large component in a great sexual relationship with a spouse btw.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## babygirl916 (Jan 10, 2022)

yes


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## babygirl916 (Jan 10, 2022)

yes


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## babygirl916 (Jan 10, 2022)

yes


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> My wife doesn't want to think of herself as beautiful. I think she is, but she generally refuses to believe me. So I do resort to *manipulation *in order to get her to believe the truth.


Sceen from the Princess Bride, You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means

I know that often you post things just to get people fired up. However, this is one of those times that I would like to point out a few things to you. One of the things that I struggled with was loosing my "Nice Guy" status and becoming a more integrated man. If someone else reading this is confused, they need to read Glover's book, No More, Mr. Nice Guy.

To me manipulating a partner for more sex, sounds a lot like making a covert contract to try to get more sex. Actually any form of manipulation for any purpose sounds a lot like a covert contract.

The problem with covert contracts with a spouse is that they know you very well. They also can read your body language, your facial expressions, and your tone of voice. That means that the person you are trying to make a covert contract with is quite likely to know exactly what you are up to. In turn that means it is quite likely to fail. That will make you look like a sexually needy "Nice Guy" in the eyes of the person you really want to have sex with.

I think that a far better approach is to just be honest about what you want, what you need, and talk about it.

Good luck.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Now that we have nailed down what affection is,
And how common it is for it to be associated with sex,
Now we need a definition of manipulation.
Is seduction manipulation?
Is initiation manipulation?
Is self improvement manipulation?
And it just goes on.
If manipulation is trying to get someone to do something that they don't want to do, is it manipulation to get some on to want to do something they aren't doing? In other words to change their mind.
Is Conversation manipulation?

And Young at Heart we will get to the myth of the covert contract eventually.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> Sceen from the Princess Bride, You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means
> 
> I know that often you post things just to get people fired up. However, this is one of those times that I would like to point out a few things to you. One of the things that I struggled with was loosing my "Nice Guy" status and becoming a more integrated man. If someone else reading this is confused, they need to read Glover's book, No More, Mr. Nice Guy.
> 
> ...


If I'm wanting to fool around with the W and she DOESN'T know what I'm up to, I'm doing it wrong! 🤣🤣


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Manipulation..
.. hmmm.😁


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Uh huh and females manipulate men, too. To get SEX and different kinds of favors from men. Low cut tops, short skirts, heels, make up, sexy talk.

It's nothing new.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Well, in my younger days.....


I refuse to think of you being that kind of person!!! Lol!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> It’s not manipulative if you are giving Mrs.BadSanta what she needs. 😆
> 
> Sometimes wives aren’t aware (consciously) how bad they need us. Our affection, validation, and prowess (shall we say) can’t just be found anywhere. This is like the only thing wives somehow fail to articulate. 😆
> 
> They make us think it’s just US that need them… don’t buy it! 😂


I have read No More Mr Nice Guy and I am aware of covert contracts and perhaps guilty of those in the past. I don't do that anymore. These days if I am in the mood for intimacy, I communicate that clearly and try as best I can to accommodate whatever my wife needs to help it be something we both share and enjoy. Primarily she mostly needs me NOT to disrupt her schedule of things that she wants to get done.

She however knows she overbooks herself and likely feel guilty and perhaps pressured to make more time for me. As a result when she thinks I should be upset and frustrated but she knows I am being nice, she accuses me of ONLY being nice because I want sex to happen soon. To me that is an insult and I have never been able to successfully defend myself against those remarks. 

So these days I just validate her concerns and tell her she is too darn beautiful. I'll perhaps ask her to not dress up so nice to make it easier for me. She starts giggling and responds well to that. So that is how I roll with it these days!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

OK, we are quickly running out of things that manipulation can be. 
Time for a reality check.
*Definition of manipulate*

transitive verb
1*: *to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner manipulate a pencil manipulate a machine
2a*: *to manage or utilize skillfully quantify our data and manipulate it statistically— S. L. Payne
*b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage; *being used and _manipulated_ by the knowing men around him— _New Republic_
3*: *to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose *: *DOCTOR suspected that the police reports were _manipulated_— Evelyn G. Cruickshanks
For the purpose of this conversation we need to limit this to definition 2 b.
is there any objection to that?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Uh huh and females manipulate men, too. To get SEX and different kinds of favors from men. Low cut tops, short skirts, heels, make up, sexy talk.
> 
> It's nothing new.


These work on me. Also yoga pants and sometimes tight jeans.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

babygirl415 said:


> yes


@babygirl415 Any reason why you have posted "yes" multiple times, please?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You're misusing the word manipulation. Manipulation is defined as control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously. Trying to convince her she's beautiful is not manipulation. Words matter. Trying to convince her of something because you want her to feel better isn't manipulating her.


If I am completely honest and tell my wife she is beautiful, she flat out refuses to believe me. I do feel like I have to manipulate her into letting go of her low self esteem. It is NOT easy. 

An example of such an effort is that I will compare her to a friend of hers that she thinks is more beautiful, I however will point out all of that persons flaws by comparing her to my wife from a male perception of beauty. I'll say, "imagine how much your friend Casandra would pay for breast augmentation surgery to have breasts as nice as yours!" My wife will then be like, "you really think so!" Then I'll play up my ability to be cheap and claim that it is awesome to be married to someone that already has wonderful breasts because I get them for free unlike someone else she knows that had a husband that refused to marry without breast augmentation surgery. Then my wife will look down at her boobs and claim that she saved me money and that I better give her what she wants and not complain about going out for dinner being expensive next time. I'll smile and tell her, "yes indeed!" 

Now the above is horrible in my opinion! But it works! It makes my wife feel more confident about herself. I definitely feel like I had to manipulate that situation to get my wife to feel confident about her body. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> @babygirl415 Any reason why you have posted "yes" multiple times, please?


Yeah, I thought three yesses in a row meant something along the "When Harry Met Sally" line.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Did Bad santa play upon his wife by artful means for his own advantage?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I refuse to think of you being that kind of person!!! Lol!


I do have to admit, when in college, I was let's just say loose. But always remained good friends! Tbh if a hot girl was looking for a good time, I did let them take advantage of me. Would that be an early form of fwbs? 🤣🤣🤣


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I do have to admit, when in college, I was let's just say loose. But always remained good friends! Tbh if a hot girl was looking for a good time, I did let them take advantage of me. Would that be an early form of fwbs? 🤣🤣🤣


I guess so!! 

It also shows that "hookup culture" was around long before this generation!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> These work on me. Also yoga pants and sometimes tight jeans.


Brother, you have named my kryptonite.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Brother, you have named my kryptonite.


The Lululemon ones my god…


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No. He wanted her to feel as sexy as he thinks she is. He wasn't lying to her so he could get laid. At least that's not what it sounded like. If he was, that's manipulation. Is he telling her all of this and then laughing at her behind her back for believing him? Or is he genuinely trying to make her feel better about herself and wants her to feel sexy and be more confident and understand how sexy he thinks she is or was he just telling her what he had to tell her to get his rocks off and rolling his eyes that she was dumb enough to buy it? Intent matters.


I'd say he genuinely loves his W without reservation, absolutely no doubt there.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I learned at the tender age of 14 that intent is ethereal and impossible to prove. Long story short It turned a felony into a misdemeanor. 
The problem here is that Badsanta the OP on this thread defined manipulation as the artful playing of another person. And, TexasMom1216 keep insisting on it being the insidious playing on of another person. They are Both right. 
It is ok to manipulate a person if your intent is approved (I'm having trouble with the term good here because the level of approved is all over the place) Bad santa is not suggesting insidious or even deceitful playing, but, his intent is clearly more frequent sex. Despite the broadly accepted fact that frequent sex improves marriages, She's still lost it thinks frequent sex is somehow insidious. 

Now If I want more frequent sex I have to go to definition 1 and physically manipulate Mrs. Nail's back and shoulders and often feet. I still do this even though she doesn't love me.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

badsanta said:


> I have read No More Mr Nice Guy and I am aware of covert contracts and perhaps guilty of those in the past. I don't do that anymore. These days if I am in the mood for intimacy, I communicate that clearly and try as best I can to accommodate whatever my wife needs to help it be something we both share and enjoy. Primarily she mostly needs me NOT to disrupt her schedule of things that she wants to get done.
> 
> She however knows she overbooks herself and likely feel guilty and perhaps pressured to make more time for me. As a result when she thinks I should be upset and frustrated but she knows I am being nice, she accuses me of ONLY being nice because I want sex to happen soon. To me that is an insult and I have never been able to successfully defend myself against those remarks.
> 
> So these days I just validate her concerns and tell her she is too darn beautiful. I'll perhaps ask her to not dress up so nice to make it easier for me. She starts giggling and responds well to that. So that is how I roll with it these days!


Covert contracts = bad.
Covert compliments = good.

😆

In fact, the more “covertly” you can deliver your wife a compliment- the better it is received. If you say “love the new shirt” in the split second you see it- much better than the calculated, rehearsed compliment. Wives are crazy smart about intent.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Why thank you for dismissing me as worthless, I've come to expect it. You can keep arguing with the original poster.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Dear Texas Mom 1216,
I have never and will never refer to you as She's still lost it, That is a different person. 
I mention this not as an excuse or as a reparation, just as a clarification.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Did Bad santa play upon his wife by artful means for his own advantage?


I think certain people think all forms of manipulation are inherently wicked. Ironically sexuality does not play by rules that are considered fair and democratic (to quote Esther Perel). So one has to be quick, clever, confident and witted in order to overcome emotional tension and barriers! 

I could argue that women manipulate men into mostly sexless marriages because they are unwilling to confront their own low self confidence to get the courage to ask for what they want and feel deserving of it. That is not manipulation as for sure it is self sacrifice isn't it? Can't be. No...

Historically I have never known what to get my wife for Christmas. Since I have been working on her self confidence, this year I knew what she wanted for Christmas because she blatantly told me. I went out and spent twice what she had budgeted for this idea to get her what she wanted and to get her the nicer version of what she wanted. She has been so freaking happy with her gift. Historically she would have felt undeserving, never mentioned what she wanted, and basically ended up with nothing meaningful for her gift for the holidays.

Women reading this... Seriously ask yourself what you really wanted for Christmas and what it would take for you to feel deserving of it enough to ask for it? None of that playfully hinting around crap with shy giggles, but to actually say, "I want THIS. GO OUT AND GET IT FOR ME!" to your spouse in time for Christmas. A lot of women reading this probably didn't get that something that the daydream about, but instead got something kind of nice and thoughtful. Is it because your spouse doesn't love you? NO! It is because you need to learn how to love yourself enough to feel deserving of what you want and make it happen. Perhaps your spouse hasn't figured out how to manipulate the situation into allowing you to feel that way and get all the benefits that comes along with feeling good about yourself.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Covert contracts = bad.
> Covert compliments = good.
> 
> 😆
> ...


LOVE THIS!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.


Interestingly enough in the book I just read, "Why Women Have Sex" it did claim that someone has to lose in order for the other to win pleasurably. At its core sexuality is relentlessly competitive. Competition is the birthplace of self development. Self development is critical for survival. 

Many psychology books that I have read also tend to suggest that deriving sexual pleasure fails to combine with the dynamics of everything being comfortable, familiar, routine, and following a set of clearly defined rules.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.


If you say so! 😀


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

badsanta said:


> Interestingly enough in the book I just read, "Why Women Have Sex" it did claim that someone has to lose in order for the other to win pleasurably. At its core sexuality is relentlessly competitive. Competition is the birthplace of self development. Self development is critical for survival.
> 
> Many psychology books that I have read also tend to suggest that deriving sexual pleasure fails to combine with the dynamics of everything being comfortable, familiar, routine, and following a set of clearly defined rules.


Blah blah blah, women are just here for you to use. Got it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Livvie said:


> If you say so! 😀


There you have it guys, tell her whatever lies you want, get her into bed and you never have to speak to her again.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> If I am completely honest and tell my wife she is beautiful, she flat out refuses to believe me. I do feel like I have to manipulate her into letting go of her low self esteem....
> Badsanta


tell her she is a Very Dirty Girl!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.


*MODERATOR WARNING:- *Quit making things up. The only moderation that has taken place was when individual posts have broken the rules.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There you have it guys, tell her whatever lies you want, get her into bed and you never have to speak to her again.


You do make some very, very good posts and I can tell you are passionate about the topics, but you can also go off the deep end very quickly. 

Not all manipulation is coercion, sometimes it is just persuading someone to see your way, through artful manipulation as in the definition @Mr. Nail provided. Are pick up lines and other initiation methods that contain no lies coercion or persuasion? I don't think anyone here is advocating lies to get what you want out of your spouse. But if they are failing to see things your way you have to persuade (a kind of manipulation) them to see it your way. As a spouse, you should only be persuading them to do things that you believe will benefit them and the marriage. Isn't it a good thing that @badsanta figured out a way to get his wife to believe she is as beautiful as he believes she is? Even if it was done through what some may call manipulation?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Isn't it a good thing that @badsanta figured out a way to get his wife to believe she is as beautiful as he believes she is? Even if it was done through what some may call manipulation?


I'm finding myself drawn to what @CatholicDad said:

Covert contracts = Bad
Covert compliments = Good

But my mind is really going into the gutter so to speak on clever ways to give my wife covert compliments. I think I need to up my game on covert compliments and work on that. 

An example of how I traditionally do this might be complaining to my wife that I am not in the mood. Then I'll allow her to quickly prove me wrong and that I was lying. She giggles when I do that! 

Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> I'm finding myself drawn to what @CatholicDad said:
> 
> Covert contracts = Bad
> Covert compliments = Good
> ...


I compliment W regularly, not just looks but all life components. 
Including her derriere and nether regions. 👍👍👍


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.


There are chunks of this thread missing otherwise I might have some input.

I do agree a wife's feelings are important.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and *whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.*


I'm a little confused, maybe I missed others' posts. I'm not lying to W on whatever, whenever I want to be physically intimate, and I didn't see others saying yep I lie to have sex with their Ws.

And no one said their Ws feelings aren't important as I bolded above.

Did I miss someone saying so?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> There are chunks of this thread missing otherwise I might have some input.
> 
> I do agree a wife's feelings are important.


Much of her posts were arguing that anything with good intentions to make someone honestly know that they are beautiful is NOT being manipulation. Then there was a debate that the use of the word manipulation can only be associated with wicked acts of lying and deceiving someone in order to get what you want. Things went off the rails very quick and she compared manipulation by using lies to falsely making a woman feel good about herself in order to get more sex to being on par with why not just rape her if you want more sex. Well, to some extend I imagine when women convince themselves they were manipulated and used sexually that it does feel violating. 

I'm certain that everyone here agrees that how a woman feels about herself is important @ConanHub so no one is denying that. However in my opinion it is low self esteem and lack of self confidence is what likely causes women to feel used and unable to stop that feeling from reoccurring. Is there a way to break that cycle? When a woman lies to herself and tells herself she is ugly, it can be downright impossible to convince her otherwise. 

This is why I think the idea of covert compliments are fascinating. A wife gets to validate that a lie has been told or a false accusation has been made! But in doing so she has to prove she is beautiful. Now perhaps @CatholicDad and I are not thinking the same about covert compliments, but our intentions are the same. But the idea is to awkwardly force a compliment onto our wives and enjoy her feeling good about herself. 

A possible example of a covert compliment. I'll ask my wife since she is not attractive if she ever had a hard time finding boyfriends when she was single. I know for a fact that my wife grew up with many men constantly asking her out (even some asking to marry) and all she had to do was take her pick on which one she liked the most. Never in her life has she been interested in someone and been rejected. Faced with those facts she can get upset with me for asking her that and start claiming that she never had problems getting anyone she wanted. Essentially she proves that she is beautiful.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Much of her posts were arguing that anything with good intentions to make someone honestly know that they are beautiful is NOT being manipulation. Then there was a debate that the use of the word manipulation can only be associated with wicked acts of lying and deceiving someone in order to get what you want. Things went off the rails very quick and she compared manipulation by using lies to falsely making a woman feel good about herself in order to get more sex to being on par with why not just rape her if you want more sex. Well, to some extend I imagine when women convince themselves they were manipulated and used sexually that it does feel violating.
> 
> I'm certain that everyone here agrees that how a woman feels about herself is important @ConanHub so no one is denying that. However in my opinion it is low self esteem and lack of self confidence is what likely causes women to feel used and unable to stop that feeling from reoccurring. Is there a way to break that cycle? When a woman lies to herself and tells herself she is ugly, it can be downright impossible to convince her otherwise.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the breakdown!


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> A possible example of a covert compliment. I'll ask my wife since she is not attractive if she ever had a hard time finding boyfriends when she was single. I know for a fact that my wife grew up with many men constantly asking her out (even some asking to marry) and all she had to do was take her pick on which one she liked the most. Never in her life has she been interested in someone and been rejected. Faced with those facts she can get upset with me for asking her that and start claiming that she never had problems getting anyone she wanted. Essentially she proves that she is beautiful.


the simple fact is, a LOT of women (not all) have body image issues as they age.
they start wondering "am i still hot for my husband? He can not possibly be turned on by me!"

So, hitting on your wife is NOT some way of tricking her into getting laid. for some of us, it is a way to get her to think of her self in sexy terms again. 

If she thinks she is sexy, she will act sexy, and your sex life will logically improve.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I believe I saw a "banned" tag next to @TexasMom1216 ?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> I learned at the tender age of 14 that intent is ethereal and impossible to prove. Long story short It turned a felony into a misdemeanor.
> *The problem here is that Badsanta the OP on this thread defined manipulation as the artful playing of another person. And, TexasMom1216 keep insisting on it being the insidious playing on of another person.* They are Both right.
> It is ok to manipulate a person if your intent is approved (I'm having trouble with the term good here because the level of approved is all over the place) Bad santa is not suggesting insidious or even deceitful playing, but, his intent is clearly more frequent sex. * Despite the broadly accepted fact that frequent sex improves marriages, *She's still lost it thinks frequent sex is somehow insidious.
> 
> Now If I want more frequent sex I have to go to definition 1 and physically manipulate Mrs. Nail's back and shoulders and often feet. I still do this even though she doesn't love me.


For me the heart of the matter to this post is what is in the heart of the person that is trying to "manipulate" their spouse. Artfully playing with someone doesn't give me an insight into what is in that person's heart.

Bad Santa has pointed out in other threads that some women have "responsive desire." That is they normally don't think about sex, but if something causes them to think about sex and get slightly turned on, then it quickly becomes "game on." In this kind of relationships, date nights, watching sexy Netflix movies, having candle lit dinners, etc. can be either seen as being romantic, trying to get your partner to have sexual relations, or just being a good partner. Based on past posts, this seems to be part of the dynamic in Bad Santa's relationship.

One could even expand this to who initiates sex? Is the person initiating sex trying to manipulate their partner?

From my perspective sex is about "making love" and emotional and physical connection. The release of various feel good hormones during sexual intercourse can produce feelings of euphoria and emotional bonding. 

As Mr. Nail says, intent is everything (but nearly impossible to know.) That I see as the heart of this discussion. I think where the discussion went off the rails was the title of the post,
*How to manipulate your spouse and get more sex!*

I honestly believe that you can't force your partner to do anything that they don't want to do. If you try to force your partner to have sex and they really don't want to do it it is either or close to rape. Again it depends on the meaning of the words force, and "really don't want to." Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do is abusive.

Now let's go back to the title. If it were how to force your spouse and get more sex, we would probably condemn the concept. If the title were, how to work with your spouse and get more sex, we would probably mostly agree with the concept. If the title were how to negotiate with your spouse and get more sex, we would again mostly agree with the concept. If the title were how to initiate sex with your spouse, in an agreed upon way and get more sex, again we would probably mostly agree.

To me for "manipulate" to be a two-way agreement (negotiated?) then both people need to know that the intent is not to impose one persons will or desires upon the other, but that the other knows what is happening and can freely say yes or no. That means that the person doing the manipulating must have an intent that allows their spouse to freely say no fi they don't want.

Why I brought up covert contracts and NMMNG was because a covert contract is a form of attempting to get a partner to have sex, which usually does not work and is not a two-way meeting of the minds and bodies.

The heart of the spirited discussion is the meaning of "manipulate."

Next I have to question if it "is broadly accepted that frequent sex improves a marriage." I will go back to David Schnarch and his believe that everything in marriage is negotiated between the partners. There is no right amount of steak each week for dinner. There is no right amount of chocolate ice cream after dinner per week. There is not right amount of children for a marriage. There is not right amount of a child's allowance. There is no right amount of sex each week. There are all things that a couple must either explicitly or implicitly negotiate and agree upon, either by affirmative action or inactions. 

In my HD/LD marriage, I am sure my LD wife might think that frequent sex could ruin a marriage, if "frequent" were some absolute number measured in multiple times per day. In fact, I am sure that there is a number of times per day that would horrify me (I don't want calluses or blisters down there).


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.


I hope this spirited discussion has not run you off or offended you too much.

Some of us have been in sex starved marriages where, before we knew better, would had done nearly anything to have gotten the sex and intimacy we felt we needed. Others have struggled with an LD/HD sex drive mismatch in our marriages. As such, I think that this thread and especially its title struck deep emotional feelings in some of us.

Good luck and your thoughts were appreciated by some of us.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> To play devil's advocate, manipulation doesn't mean lie in every case. There are cads who don't hesitate to lie if it suits their need. However many humans use the truth often enough when attempting to manipulate another from start to finish. Both sexes.
> 
> In many cases the truths are used like battering rams.
> Other cases, like a velvet glove.


This is an interesting point and concept to consider. Most of us know what buttons to push to get our spouses in the mood. So does that mean intentionally pushing those buttons is a form of soft manipulation. 

Or forget about sex related things. My wife is in sales and year end is often super stressful for her. I know how to manipulate her (for lack of a better word) to make her realize the world is not crashing around her. In this sense is the manipulation a positive thing?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> Bad Santa has pointed out in other threads that some women have "responsive desire." That is they normally don't think about sex, but if something causes them to think about sex and get slightly turned on, then it quickly becomes "game on." In this kind of relationships, date nights, watching sexy Netflix movies, having candle lit dinners, etc. can be either seen as being romantic, trying to get your partner to have sexual relations, or just being a good partner. Based on past posts, this seems to be part of the dynamic in Bad Santa's relationship.


I my marriage if I tell my wife she is beautiful she doesn't believe me. If I tell her that I love her, she doesn't believe me. She often comments that, "love is not real as we are just two people stuck together and you need sex all the time!" Historically I used to get crushed by those comments. While working to improve my marriage to some extent one has to up their game and get creative in order to accomplish their agenda. Mine was to simply reconnect with my wife emotionally and physically in ways that we could celebrate our marriage and being together. After about fifteen years of being married, the quality of sex dwindled. It still happened but only because I insisted and put effort into it. Often she would push me away or tell me to hurry up and get done. 

Getting back to the title of this thread, I chose it because that is what my wife has perpetually accused me of doing to her. Anything and everything nice I would do is because I wanted sex. She would get upset at me when I would initiate if I had been extra nice recently because she knew it in her heart that it was only for sex. Gosh this would make me so frustrated as I felt there was no way to win in terms of trying to make things any better and more bearable.

I didn't give up. As I do love my wife and love is worth fighting for. 

Fast forward another decade and I have learned A LOT. Much of it is about perspective and self confidence. One has to also learn to read their spouse and not react to one's own self doubt. So this is me now in how I read my spouse:

I don't believe in love = I want to be reminded love is real

I don't believe I am beautiful = I want you to prove me wrong and that I am beautiful 

I believe you are using me for sex = I need to feel you want me as a person

You would probably f*** any vagina but I happen to be the only one available = I need to be reminded what makes you only want to be with me

I am fat and overweight = I need your help taking care of my health so I can be my best for you

You are lazy and always in a bad mood = please take better care of yourself physically and emotionally so that you will be around for me to love you for many more years to come

So when I read my wife correctly, I often correct her and ask if she means the positive version of those comments above. She will always smile and claim that after all these years that I now know her. Then I'll 180 and ask if I can use her for sex. She will giggle and ask me if I am wanting regular or high octane which is our code words for certain things in the bedroom. Then I'll tell her that I don't love her and that I just want to get in her pants as much as possible until the end of time (which is a covert compliment!). She laughs and the sparks fly. 

It is almost as if my wife enjoys role playing the bad version of our marriage as, "just tell me that you want to use me for sex so I can give you what you want as opposed to complaining about all this you want me to feel loved crap!" ...in a way that is actually loving and playful irony of making fun of our past struggles. Then I bring on my game and at some point her jaw drops and she says, "this is not fair that you you can do this to me" right as she is enjoying things the most. 

I don't understand why she says, "it is not fair" once she responds and enjoys the moment. Perhaps it is because she still feels I enjoy using her for sex and she didn't anticipate that she too would enjoy it so much as well. In other words I won at my game of manipulating her and getting her into bed. 

At one point during intense arguments and debates that were constructive, she did thank me for being pushy about physical intimacy. She said had I not been that she would have missed out on a lot of enjoyment in our marriage because that it is not in her nature to push for that.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

It sounds more like you were trying to manipulate her before. Instead of just being honest and telling her you want her in the sack now you'd do lots of nice things to try and get in her pants. Which she didn't respect much. And rightfully so.

So lesson learned. Being direct and honest, paired with being playful and entertaining, is the magic combination to turn a woman on.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

gaius said:


> It sounds more like you were trying to manipulate her before. Instead of just being honest and telling her you want her in the sack now you'd do lots of nice things to try and get in her pants. Which she didn't respect much. And rightfully so.
> 
> So lesson learned. Being direct and honest, paired with being playful and entertaining, is the magic combination to turn a woman on.


There is perhaps a lot of truth to that comment. I however scratch my head and wonder if being honest and playful back then would have indeed worked or backfired. I feel certain that it would have just made things worse if my wife was convinced that I just use her for sex. I think first I needed to help her work on her self esteem and I had to work on mine as well. Once she started feeling somewhat better about herself, THEN I could be honest and playful. 

I also have to be able to stand up and allow myself to get hit by a freight train of insults and not even flinch. Perhaps I'll look at my wife all playfully puzzled and say, "well honey, you married me so I am going to assume that is what takes to rock your boat!" Historically I would get all butt hurt, withdraw, and go into passive aggressive tantrums. These days I see her insults as more of a test to see if I can hold my sh!t together emotionally. When I do keep it together I think that is what it needed for her to enjoy being closer to me as opposed to being a grumpy old cooter (just had to look up that word and it means turtle which makes sense).


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

badsanta said:


> I also have to be able to stand up and allow myself to get hit by a freight train of insults and not even flinch. Perhaps I'll look at my wife all playfully puzzled and say, "well honey, you married me so I am going to assume that is what takes to rock your boat!" Historically I would get all butt hurt, withdraw, and go into passive aggressive tantrums. These days I see her insults as more of a test to see if I can hold my sh!t together emotionally. When I do keep it together I think that is what it needed for her to enjoy being closer to me as opposed to being a grumpy old cooter (just had to look up that word and it means turtle which makes sense).


I think you might be the first guy I've seen that figured that out. Here I was thinking I'd have to come back and argue with you and you're way ahead of me.

Good to see someone enjoying life with a woman who wants to have sex with him instead of whining about how men and women aren't treated exactly the same.


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