# Not a Midlife crisis. Mid-Life Awakening?



## FlaGirl

This may be winded, I will try to keep it as to the point as I can. I prefer to have comments from those who have been through this or are going through this. I do not need permission, nor do I want "godly" people telling me I am a sinner or to just pray. Thank You, I pray enough!Those who can relate, I would appreciate your story.

I have been married 22 years. I was previously in a relationship for 7 (had a son) that was abusive. Met and married a good,kind,wonderful man. We went through lot's of stuff as anyone would in a long-term marriage. I fell in love with so many things about my husband and do still love him, so this is VERY hard for me,but I am contemplating divorce. I never felt that "passion" for him, but we made it work, considering he also has what I would consider a low sex drive.

I tried many things over the years, and he likes it on occassion, but has said it just isn't that important to him. Consider these things: Slipping into the shower with him, he washes up and gets out. Offering a "quickie" when he showed me his parents camper, saying it was too risky. Becoming a Pure Romance consultant and him not thinking much of it. I had the "sex" talk at 5,10,15 and 20 years. He says he loves me and sex with me, but again, not an important thing. I'm not unattractive(I don't think),I keep myself fit and try to stay attractive for him. He says he doesn't want to work out, that he worked out enough in his 20's and doesn't want to work that hard anymore. Still, I understand his struggle because he has always had a weight issue. Not a massive one, but still he does and I have always supported healthy ways for his HEALTH, but I can not say deep down the weight attracted me. I still intiated,etc.

Over the years this wore on me and my self-esteem. I am still young (48) and do not feel I want to have a pssionless marriage. The kids are grown,I stayed as they were raised and put my feelings aside.

We are also quite incompatable personality wise. I am an extrovert, he an introvert. I love life and silliness, him not so much on the silliness. I crave adventure, he is content in front of the tv. I often get the "eye roll" when we are out, as if my loud laugh and "craziness" is embarassing him. He has never hit me, put me down or hurt me in anyway, but I still feel in some ways he does not accept me as me.

My oldest son is Bipolar and an addict. I wrote a book about it. He never read it. Said he lived it and doesn't like to read. In the midst of the hardest parts when my son left my husband mostly stayed in the garage. I dealt with my feelings with a counselor. My husband though supportive and kind does not deal with emotion at all. If the kids are having an issue, they come to me, particularly anything mentally (ex: anxiety,etc). He just can not or knows not how to deal with it.

So that is just some of it. We could go on just fine, no big issues, other than some of what I have said. A good, honest,decent guy whom I have no passion for. I am ready to divorce.

I want to move back South, I hate the cold. I want something different for my life, job wise and i want to experience new things. This doesn't mean I wanna go and find another man, far from it, want to be me alone for once in my life. Yes, some would say mid-life crisis, I say no, you haven't lived my life, you can't judge me for wanting to find what's next for me. You don't know how much it hurts me to feel this way, to know I will hurt my husband and children and how selfish it feels. I have made up my mind. I am waiting til after the holidays and I know it will be hard on all, but I'd like to know if anyone else can relate? BTW, I told my husband 6 months ago I was considering divorce. He was devatstated then. It's actually been a year since the topic came up. He shrugged about counseling (again avoiding anything emotional). I went a few times and decided to stay due to the pain I would cause.

Fast forward a year later and I feel I am strong enough to say this no longer works for me, that I love him, but I do truly want a different life.Anyone go through this with a good spouse, but not on the same page on so many levels where you get to mid-life and wonder is this all there is? Also, at mid-life realizing you may want a different life? Anyone move away from your children? Mine are now 29 (I haven't seen him in 5 years due to his addictions-his choice), almost 21 and 19.


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## SecondTime'Round

I have not been in your shoes, but I think you'll find some here have. I don't think you'll get people telling you that you are a "sinner" or just to "pray" like you fear . (We reserve that for adulterers  )


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## TAMNewb

Life's too short to stay unfulfilled. Don't delay. If you feel selfish, remember that you're also giving him a chance to find true, genuine happiness before he's too old.

It's hard to get thoughts of divorce and greener grass out of the brain once the seed is planted.


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## TeddieG

It's not a midlife crisis, but it sounds like a midlife transition. A transition becomes a crisis when the choices made are reckless and hurtful and selfish, and there is no empathy towards the people being hurt. 

It does seem that with your children raised, you have a desire to pursue things you set aside to raise your kids or things you have rediscovered now that you know you have the time and opportunity to pursue them. 

My sister used to talk of divorcing my BIL on occasion, and my mother and I were not surprised. My mother was concerned that my sister and BIL had put so much of their life and effort into raising their kids, and they did an amazing job and produced two productive and decent and stand-up human beings, that when the kids were grown my sister and BIL would be strangers to each other without that common purpose. 

But my sister has come around to the idea that there are things she wants to do, places she wants to go, causes she wants to take up, but she wants the support of my BIL and she is aware that they have a level of trust that she can do these things and not worry about loneliness or infidelity . . . he has his hobbies and things he cares about . . . 

It does seem you've made up your mind, and it may come as no surprise that people in midlife transition or crisis often have difficulty getting through the holidays when they have made up their minds and distanced themselves from their partner, and January is one of the record months for divorce filings. 

Expect that when you do bring it up or file, or present your h with papers, he may be prepared to work more seriously on himself and the marriage. And expect to possibly experience some waivering yourself. But I think you are being honest about how you feel, and I think that if this is really how you feel, you can tell him that you care about him and you even love him, but try to avoid using the midlife crisis language of "I love you but I'm not in love with you." That's a very common but very confusing way to describe how you feel, since the person on the receiving end doesn't understand the difference all the time. Depending on how you handle it, you could, in the end, remain friends with your h since you do share children. 

I notice that you said you didn't want a passionless marriage, but I think that really at midlife, people don't want to face the rest of their lives being a passionless life. You may find that your h comes around and you both can work on putting passion back in your marriage and into your shared life, if you decide that you want to do that, down the road, if you reconsider, perhaps, or in response to getting his attention.

But transition into the 3rd chapter of your life is a really normal and healthy thing, and you're truly honestly aware that your transition could have some ramifications for others around you. I think that's healthy, because it is a sign you have empathy, and that to me means this is not a crisis; if you can maintain your caring and feeling for others while you continue to nourish yourself, this doesn't have to become a midlife crisis.


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## BashfulB

I say do what you can to save the marriage. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Talk to your husband and see if the two of you can come up with a compromise that does not include divorce or cheating or any of that open marriage nonsense. 

Maybe the two of you would do good to live apart for a while... That is if the two of you have the resolve to stay faithful. 

Your husband sounds a lot like my dad. He was very closed off emotionally, but he and my mom found out ways to get around that. 

I dunno. Your story makes me sad. I'm so in love with my wife, if she left me like you are considering leaving your husband, I'd probably drive my truck off a cliff.


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## Dude007

I'm exactly where u are my friend. Trying to scale out gracefully myself. Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlaGirl

Life is never easy when you care,you love someone and have shared half your life, to tell them you no longer want that with them. Maybe there is a "Death til We Part", but isn't there also ,"People grow and change and can continue to love someone, but not want to stay married to them?"
It makes me feel selfish and I know what matters the most is that my husband and children can at some point understand that I do love them but I am at crossroads with what I want for the next part of my life. I would like to think my husband and I can be friends again, once the hurt heals some and that my children will be ok and not hate me, but I know it's all going to be hard,sad and ugly for a while.
There's a movie called,"The Private Lives of Pippa Lee". A woman at crossroads and I keep thinking of the part where she says,"I don't want to make butterfly lamb anymore." 
I feel for those pegged as having a mid-life crisis who ran out on their spouse, but what many don't understand is the whole dynamic of trying and staying and incompatability.


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## anchorwatch

Does he know your plan? Have you told him? Do you fear it will delay your leaving?


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## Riptide

I am not in your shoes but I understand you wanting passion in a marriage and sounds like you gave him ample opportunity to engage in the marriage. I wish he would have responded as it sounds like the marriage could have been salvaged if he chose to participate. It is sad when a marriage dissolves not from an overall lack of caring or love of one another but perhaps taking things for granted or a lack of willingness to work on the marriage. I can't honestly say if you should or shouldn't leave as only you know in your heart that you gave it your best and you came to the conclusion that things will never change and you can walk away guilt free. My advice to you would be to not drop it to him like an H-bomb as it sounds like from your previous discussion about divorce, he will take it really hard and will be in for a world of hurt and more so if he believes it came from out of nowhere. Believe me, even if you gave subtle hints of unhappiness, he might not think you would actually pull the trigger. Sometimes, we males need to be hit over the head with a hammer to get the message so I would think of ways to bring up the discussion so he knows that when you do make the final decision, it won't seem like out of the blue.


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## EleGirl

FlaGirl,

Can you tell us a bit more about yourself?

Do you have a career or a job? Or have you been a stay at home mom all these years?

What interests do you have, that you do on your own? I mean things like hobbies, volunteer work, any sports, friends, etc?


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## FlaGirl

I am a medical assistant, do not make a lot of money but I can take care of myself. I have many interests and I am not afraid to be alone (so much as the loneliness). Believe me, I've been through the ringer in my life. Traveled 2,000 on a bus with my 2 year old alone. Left an abusive relationship prior to my husband, and in many ways I see now that I did not heal and take my time. I found this wonderful human being and latched on tight. I did not use him in any way,I fell in love, but I was also young. I know ME now and I also know we are not a great match even loving one another. I've spent half of my life with my husband. I was safe, felt cared for and loved,but deep down I always felt like we'd been better off as friends, a brother or father figure. Does that make sense. Of course we were sexual, had 2 children, but with all honesty, those things you could never admit in real life, there was no real sexual attraction. I am not living in this rose-colored glass world where I think the grass is greener,etc, in fact the thought of dating terrifies me,as I was never good at it,even younger. I tended to get into long-term relationships because I want that emotional attachment. I enjoy outdoor activities, gatherings with family and friends, exercise, music.


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## EleGirl

How old are your children?

I do think that you are going through what is called a mid-life crisis. Sometime in the 40's to the 60's, people often reach a point where they have achieved all the normal milestones in life... school, career, married, children. And then we are left with the feeling of 'now what'? It's a time to redefine our lives. The problem comes when people act impulsively, lose what they had and realize that they lost what meant the most to them. I'm not suggesting that you are making a mistake; only that it's a precarious time for you.

I rather doubt that your husband will feel much like being your friend after you leave him. Divorce is a pretty devastating thing to go through, especially when it's not something that he wants. When you make your choice, make it with the realization that he will not be your friend and that he's likely to find someone else pretty quickly. Men very often do.

Is there any way that you can do this in stages? Could you do some things that get you out there doing the things that you dream of doing? That way you can find out more if this is what you really want. 

No one can tell you what the right thing is to do here. We don't know you, your husband or your situation.


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## Ynot

FlaGirl, I have been through your situation but from the other side. My ex left me for I am sure many of the same reasons. I don't know for sure. I can only surmise based on the anecdotal evidence. Over the years she expressed regrets about her earlier life. Like you, she was married before I came along. The marriage was abusive. She married young and for the wrong reasons. Together they had a son. He was five when I met her, she had just turned 26.I was 28. We married 2 years later and were married for 24 years. We had one child together
Over the last few years her attitude changed. I felt her pulling away but had no context to place her actions in. I had great anxiety as though I knew something was coming. There were signs, but again I didn't know how to read them. One day it all came to a head and she told me she wanted a divorce. I was devastated, mainly because I didn't understand. I still truly don't understand. Because we never talked about it. She refused to talk to me about her reasons. She said it wouldn't matter because I wasn't going to hear what I wanted to hear. I understand that to a degree. At the time I was desperately trying to get her to stay.
I have had a year to ponder the whole thing. As I said I don't completely understand. But I do know this - everybody deserves to be happy. I was not happy in my marriage. I also felt as though I had missed out and was missing out on a lot of my life. Our sex life was not great. The last few years it was maybe once a week or two of duty sex with no real passion. Prior to that we went weeks at a time without having sex. I was caught in the "til death do us part" trap for many years. I couldn't leave. But she did.
The past year of introspection has led me to understand that we were never really open and honest with each other. We didn't know how. We seldom had discussions and when we did they became heated arguments. 
I guess I say all this to finish with this - please take the time to be honest with your husband. Explain to him, as you have explained here. I wish I had the benefit of knowing and understanding. It may have made the past year of my life a little easier. You have spent half of your life with this man. While he may not deserve what is to come, he at least deserves to know the truth.
You deserve to be happy and you have every right to pursue that happiness.


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## Sammy64

Yes, I can understand what you are going through.. Been there, done that, even got a free t-shirt.. If your kids are adults, like you said, and you feel that you have done what you could, i say GO FOR IT!!! 
My Child is younger then yours and even she understood.. Yes, there will be some sadness, heartache and some low times, but in the end, everyone will be ok. Sometimes Adultery is not even the reason for the split, as you said people grow apart, its normal IMO and when there is one in the marriage not willing to work on it, you have to do what you have to do....


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## FlaGirl

Ynot,
You brought a different perspective to this for me and I so thank you for that! I am sorry for your pain and what you went through and you're right, my husband deserves to know the truth. I have been trying to keep all the waters calm, something I have done my whole life,looking back now. Hate conflict and so that whole trying to be the"perfect wife" wasn't really the right thing to do. I think it kept my husband and I from truly connecting in a more intimate way. We never faught, that's not normal. I can honestly say that I can count maybe 5 times in 23 years that we ever really "admitted" to a disagreement. I think so much was we get along as friends, but also he is unemotional and I am very emotional. I did not want to make waves because I was afraid of what would come of it (conflict), true feelings, all of past,etc.

My husband grew up Catholic and with a family that did not discuss feelings, etc. When I met him, his parents were already sleeping in separate bedrooms. While I grew up with a very open discussion (if not too much) about sexuality. My idea of marriage was even if there was chaos, the attraction/passion was there for one another. He grew up seeing a very disfunctional marriage where two stayed together no matter what.

I think my husband always wanted a wife and children. I read someone else's statement here, about that, regarding her husband, and it was put in a way such as this: He wanted a wife and kids, it's all he ever wanted. He got that, and it made him happy and he was content to just have that bond, without any real work on the emotional side of what it entails to be close. The picture all looked so good. In retrospect, I wanted the same thing. I wanted a family, a funtional stable family.

Our 2 children that we had together ,grew up to be great kids and I'm so grateful for that, considering my oldest did not. I am still not at a good place losing my son. He is alive, but not living. He is homeless, in another state and I have not seen him for 5 years. None of us talk about him. I dealt with having to make him leave (my life or his at that point) on my own and through counseling. My husband does not bring him up at all, though he raised him from the time he was 6 years old. That is so painful for me. If I say, "I miss him, I wish this or that", my husband just shrugs. My son caused a lot of turmoil in our home and has refused to take his meds or get stable and sober, so this is why there is no longer a relationship, but as a mother, I am devastated inside. My husband has said if he were ok he would be in our lives, and that is true but I felt so lost during the thick of it. I am to blame as well, because that whole thing about me not wanting to cause waves, I took it all on and left my husband out. No wonder he doesn't want any part. Hmmmm, hindsight.

Back to our relationship, I see a pattern here just getting it all out. My husband is unemotional, I ,at times,didn't allow him in, so we are both to blame.

But the honesty thing about why I want a divorce. There are so many reasons. I do not want to say to my husband that I never had a strong attraction to him and sexually I have no compatability with him. He knows the second part of course, as he is a partner in it as well. I dont want to dump all the stuff I do not like about our marriage or about HIM. How is one to go about this? How do I say these things to my husband "Ynot" ?

The other part of this split is my yearning to grow as a person on my own. I have been a mother since I was 19 and prior to that took care of many family members with their issues, including my own Mother and Sister. I am the peace keeper and "go to" person. I am at a point now where no one really needs me. Of course my children need me and I want to be there for them and always will be, but for the first time in my life, I am at a point where if I do not take an opportunity to go find me, I never will.

I could stay in my marriage and things would be safe, fine, stable, and I could see myself regretting never haven gotten to truly know me, on my own. I can say these things to my husband about why I want to divorce, but I think he also needs to know the things that I was unhappy about with him. In turn he can tell me the things he is unhappy about. I know he isn't all that happy either, but he could maintain this for many more years to come, more so than I. I am not perfect and I know most of what bugs him about me,but he has a hard time getting anything out at all if it involves emotions. He is a HUGE avoider! I do not want to try to change my husband, nor do I want to try. This is different from wanting to help one another grow and change in ways that could keep our marriage going. I also would like to be just me, and don't feel I can truly do that with him.

I'm sure he has many things about me he has been unhappy about as well and maybe if we are honest, we could move forward with less thoughts of,"What the hell happened" and try not to repeat the pattern in any next relationship.

SO... would one tell a spouse that the attraction is not there? I will not tell him it never was there. Like I said before in previous posts, I fell in love with him on many levels, the physical was not one of them. Though I can hear him say,"How long have you felt this way?" UGH!!! Thank you for letting me vent!


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## Dude007

I would make it more about YOU and less about HIM even when you tell him. I'm in a similar boat and do NOT want to hurt my wife or tell her she is inadequate. I think in our case our personalities just didn't mesh so we never got real close. Now I see how bad that hurt both of us long term and someone has the to be the grown up to end it. Yeah its going to hurt, but its already hurting anyway. My grandmother you to describe a sitch like this as "Having a tiger by its tail". You are killing yourself holding on to its tail, but you know the minute you let go, its gonna REALLY HURT!! DUDE


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## FlaGirl

Dude007,
Wow, so true! I have been putting it all off for fear of hurting him and the damn holidays. Going out of town (all of us for Thanksgiving) so would like to wait until after Christmas. I have already distanced myself,not entirely on purpose, and he sees it, we know one another (of course) after all these years. Still trying to keep it calm and emotionally safe in the house, but he knows me and I wear my emotions on my sleeve. It's difficult, but right now is not the right time. They do say Jan. is the biggest month for asking for a divorce. 

I see your point Dude about not making it about him. He cant fix the lack of attraction to him that I have, so why even bring that up? That would hurt me if I heard that! I will put it as gently as I can about the differences and about how I feel about wanting and needing to move on as an individual. It will hurt no matter what (great analogy about the tiger!) so why make him feel less of man as well! Thank you for that perspective! 

I know I should not worry about what others will say, but I know I will lose friends and people will look at this divorce as,"Why would she leave a great guy. They seemed happy. He is a good husband,father,etc. She is selfish and having a mid-life crisis." Well, I know my truth and what my marriage is. I will never throw him under the bus, nor bad mouth him, but I'm sure there will come a time I would want to defend my actions. How do you think you will deal with that Dude007?Do you care? Does it bother you if people will say the same about your wife?

On another note, we planned to sell the house and downsize in the Spring, so bills will be paid off, no leaving one another in debt. We have a cabin that I am willing to give up. Our state requires a 4 month waiting period so to make this all even harder, I plan to stay in our home ( to save money) through this process. I know that will be hard on him. I will get half of his 401K and that is killing me, but it's the law and I will need it to start over. I can hear it now,"She ran off to Fla and took half their retirement." UGH!!!!


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## Dude007

You and I are in such a similar sitch is haunting. I'm trying to lay low for holidays but she is catching on. We paid off everything except one credit card. I want that paid off by spring. Then we split the 401k and assets split easily as well. She will have a paid off house, two nice vehicles, zero debt and a lil cash in the bank. I dont worry about what people would think and that I'd need to defend my position. Most of our friends and family know we are great biz partners and care about each other a lot. There is just no flame or romance. There never has been. Its not anyone's fault it just is..Ya know? DUDE


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## FlaGirl

Wow, I do know! Thank You!!


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## Ynot

Wow. FlaGirl. I read this after I responded to your PM. As I said in my PM or meant to if I hadn't, I really don't know if knowing would have assuaged the pain that I felt. If it had been mitigated, I doubt I would have experienced the personal growth I have experienced. Looking back I know that I did not have the emotional maturity to deal with the divorce, so I doubt I would have had the emotional maturity to deal with the cause of it. But at the same time I wish we had had the discussion. 
I don't know if you need to go into such detail to speak the truth. But I think being truthful is the right thing to do. I would suggest keeping it simple and general. Since the topic has been broached before, you might be surprised at his response (he may agree with you). I think that your struggle with this is a sign of your personal integrity. I truly hope that it all works out for you. Both of you.


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## Ynot

I see some other posts were made since I started writing my last post. I have to say, that one of the things that you will learn or should know now if you have any doubt is this - don't worry about what others will think. They aren't the ones living in limbo, in an empty marriage, simply surviving - you are!
I get the whole ILYBINILWY idea, but the fact is that you do love this person, even if they are not compatible with you any longer (don't use or think of the term inadequate). If you are unable to love them the way they deserve to be loved, you can at least love them enough to find someone who can and will. The same is true in reverse, although they may not see it right away.
I sincerely wish both of you (along with your spouses) the best.


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## Riptide

Dude007 said:


> I would make it more about YOU and less about HIM even when you tell him. I'm in a similar boat and do NOT want to hurt my wife or tell her she is inadequate. I think in our case our personalities just didn't mesh so we never got real close. Now I see how bad that hurt both of us long term and someone has the to be the grown up to end it. Yeah its going to hurt, but its already hurting anyway. My grandmother you to describe a sitch like this as "Having a tiger by its tail". You are killing yourself holding on to its tail, but you know the minute you let go, its gonna REALLY HURT!! DUDE


Excellent Post and Good Advice Dude


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## FlaGirl

I had some time alone, and since we are selling to "downsize" in the Spring, I started to go through stuff. I went through every picture. Had report cards and cards,etc from the kids. Split all that stuff up for them, told them they will want to look back on that stuff someday and smile, like I have. Going through the pictures of 23 years together was hard. But it also showed me something... my truth. In every picture I could see happiness, yes, but the ones with us together I could bring myself back to that moment. I saw frienship, trust, but I could also recall missing "that feeling" that I so desparately wanted to have. I recall a woman going through the motions to be the perfect wife and can recall many times when my husband did not smile and I know it was not out of any particular sadness, but just his personality, and yet I am smiling big, as if, the world is great. 

I see how he was so into the kids , such a great Dad, but the ones when we are dressed to go out (ex: Work Christmas party) he appears to look uncomfortable. Again, his personality, he is not a big socializer, not that he says nothing, but he is more of a loner. I see me, excited to get out and socialize. In many ways I can recall that particular event where we would go, separate but still remain "coupled" at the event, and the times I felt like I shouldn't have too much of a good time because he might get embarassed. 

I also recall feeling like he was not comfortable in his own skin. Weight, etc. though I always put that aside, inside it bothered me (honesty here). hmmmm I never thought of myself as superficial, but saying that certainly makes me feel that, saying it. I do think there is an innate attraction one either has for a person or does not. This is supposed to separate friends from lovers, right? I wanted both and for a time I had that, yet a big piece was missing both sexually and even emotionally if I am honest. 

Just need to share some "gong through stuff" thoughts. I think woman are more hung up on the pictures of a life lived together, but I'm sure men have felt a pain looking back at some photos over the years when you thought you had it all.


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## Dude007

"pictures of a life lived together, but I'm sure men have felt a pain looking back at some photos over the years when you thought you had it all." nope but I'm the master of compartmentalizing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr.Fisty

Good luck. The only person you have to answer to is yourself. A relationship ending does not mean failure and I wish people do not look at it as such. The failure in my opinion is just staying together and managing.

I do not find it particularly good to stay because of a promise without the full knowledge of what may occur in the future, how one grows and change.

I particularly do not feel sorry for those I break-up with, nor feel sorry when the reverse is the same. I will always place my well-being before a relationship since I am the constant in my life.

A relationship should be a choice made by anyone free to leave anytime, or commit to.


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## TeddieG

FlaGirl, I too lived through my h's midlife crisis, and his wasn't very kind or gentle. It was painful, involving an OW and telling me he loved but he wasn't in love with me. I don't think you have to explain to your h that there wasn't a real attraction from the beginning, that you just wanted a family. MLCers tend to tell their spouses things when they decide to leave and on all the MLC forums, there is advice about the left-behind spouse, as they're referred to, working on themselves and doing things they've always wanted to do, finding hobbies and pastimes and passions, etc. Some of the MLC forums say that spouses in MLC tend to rewrite the entire history of the relationship, and mine certainly did, in a very painful and not very truthful way, but I attribute that to the fact that he was cheating on me. Since I've arrived here I've seen that much of what he did was related to the infidelity, things which have been described here as part and parcel of the dissonance of cheating. When your h has had a chance to reflect, he'll look back and see some of the problems. And while I generally agree that it would be difficult for you to be friends, there may be opportunities when the dust settles for the two of you to have conversations that indicate acceptance and awareness on both sides. Maybe not, but maybe. 

Our marriage was kind of like yours; we never fought although we WOULD disagree, but often talk rationally through a problem and agree on a course of action. H's OW, on the other hand, and he argue vehemently, and he doesn't like it. He was an avoider of conflict, in ways that I didn't realize until he was gone and I realized he never voiced things that were bothering him. 

What I DO see is that you have a great deal of concern for your husband's feelings, which is a nice thing. And the issue of what other people think is a tough one; I was concerned about how h's parents would react, as well as his kids, when his MLC broke loose and he was acting very erratically. And I wanted to protect him from the fury and the wrath of my sister, but that was ultimately a waste of time and not successful. Not everyone has the kind of full blown melting down crisis he had, but it was extremely painful to watch. He didn't take care of himself, physically, mentally, emotionally and his MLC was triggered by physical health issues that exacerbated some of his mental health issues. You certainly don't seem to be in a place like that, and you, unlike my h, seem willing to address your issues in a mature and straightforward and empathetic way. So I wish you all the best.


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## Mr.Fisty

Dude007 said:


> I would make it more about YOU and less about HIM even when you tell him. I'm in a similar boat and do NOT want to hurt my wife or tell her she is inadequate. I think in our case our personalities just didn't mesh so we never got real close. Now I see how bad that hurt both of us long term and someone has the to be the grown up to end it. Yeah its going to hurt, but its already hurting anyway. My grandmother you to describe a sitch like this as "Having a tiger by its tail". You are killing yourself holding on to its tail, but you know the minute you let go, its gonna REALLY HURT!! DUDE



Never heard that saying before.

True enough, someone else may be content with the ex, but compatibility matters when it comes to maintaining bonds. An adventurous person is not correct for someone who loves to stay rooted.

My uncle a few years back divorce his wife and now enjoys his life traveling where she moved on with someone else eventually and is happy again. They are both happy apart, but it was painful in the beginning. Better to break it off when possible than to drag it out and waste someone elses life.


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## Riptide

I 100% agree with Teddy. Do not mention anything regarding a lack of physical attraction. That will only add to his lack of self esteem which will come to the forefront post separation. It is refreshing that despite your unhappiness that you are deeply concerned about your husband and how he will deal with things if/when you decide to leave.

I hope no matter how this plays out it work out for the best....for both of you. I fully understand the pain and hurt your husband will go through and I only hope he can come out shining brighter and realizes he needs to engage people (not just you) and take risks by putting himself out there with people. If he works on himself and truly sees what he needs to do in order to not only attract someone but maintain a healthy and passion filled relationship , he actually might find a better version of himself and truly become alive as well. On the flip side he could spiral into a fit of despair so I hope the former scenario plays out and not the latter. I know I had to decide for myself how I was going to react to my wife leaving me for another man and despite the pain and hurt, I did use that pain to motivate myself to become a more social able, better version of myself. 

You might gain a totally different perspective once you get out on your own and realize that perhaps you and your husband could find passion living separately (dating) without having to deal with the daily mundane struggles of life living under the same room and look at each other differently. But then again, maybe not but I would not close the door to any future possibilities.

I truly wish you BOTH happiness and will follow your journey hoping for the best.


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## Riptide

PS -moving forward, your husband will likely need (and refuse) counselling to deal with this. Perhaps lead him to this site, I would be more than happy to share my story with him and help him anyway I can and there are other good people on this board too that I am sure would do the same. Just having a release point and having people respond is therapeutic so please consider that for him. Take care


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## SurpriseMyself

There's a trend here I'm seeing that applies to my situation, too. Woman full of life and joy finds a stable, steady guy who doesn't rock her world but he's all the things her last man wasn't. This guy doesn't argue, keeps his cool, seems to cut through life with a knife as if nothing phases him. She feels safe, even if she's not totally in love or finds him a turn on sexually.

What she doesn't know is this man cuts through life and doesn't seem phased because he has shut down his emotions. He likes stability, sameness, hates conflict, and doesn't know how to have an emotional, intimate connection. Marriage is a picture he can show to the world. His wife, his kids, his job, his home just prove he is capable. But he doesn't love any of it, really. He just wants the picture without the emotional investment.

Eventually the wife will grow weary. She wants and needs that connection. She doesn't want to simply be a part of his picture - she wants a real marriage and a real life with connection. But what she doesn't know is that this man is not capable of that. He may even think she's selfish for not wanting the picture, because after all, it does look pretty good if you are outside looking in, which is exactly where he has always stood: outside. And he is very unlikely to change. He probably had a father just like him, or saw his parents sleep separately and never show affection, or saw his mom do 1000 things to avoid how empty se felt. And so he never saw what marriage could be and may not even want a real marriage. He may be totally fine with just the picture. And in that case, he needs to be with a woman like him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

SurpriseMyself said:


> There's a trend here I'm seeing that applies to my situation, too. Woman full of life and joy finds a stable, steady guy who doesn't rock her world but he's all the things her last man wasn't. This guy doesn't argue, keeps his cool, seems to cut through life with a knife as if nothing phases him. She feels safe, even if she's not totally in love or finds him a turn on sexually.


I think it is a terrible idea to marry someone that you aren't attracted to sexually, especially without mentioning that important fact to the other person. I've seen several cases like that and they generally don't work out well.

Of course not everyone realizes the importance of this, but that doesn't make it hurt less when it happens.

Just my opinion, of course.


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## LongWalk

If you request divorce without criticizing him, perhaps he will chase you. Do you desire that?


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## SurpriseMyself

technovelist said:


> I think it is a terrible idea to marry someone that you aren't attracted to sexually, especially without mentioning that important fact to the other person. I've seen several cases like that and they generally don't work out well.
> 
> Of course not everyone realizes the importance of this, but that doesn't make it hurt less when it happens.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.


As a woman, I will say that sexual attraction is complex. I've been with smoking hot men who did nothing for me and men others didn't find attractive physically but who got my motor running with personality. Now, the sexual attractiveness of a mate can go up with time, closeness, connection. I think that's what these women, including myself, were hoping for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

SurpriseMyself said:


> As a woman, I will say that sexual attraction is complex. I've been with smoking hot men who did nothing for me and men others didn't find attractive physically but who got my motor running with personality. Now, the sexual attractiveness of a mate can go up with time, closeness, connection. I think that's what these women, including myself, were hoping for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, but did you share your (relative) lack of attraction with your fiance(s)/future husbands/LTR partners? 

Let's say a woman told me that she really liked me except for not being terribly attracted to me sexually, but hoped that would come in time. If I went ahead with a relationship with that knowledge, at least if it didn't work out, I wouldn't be blindsided as so many of the ILYBINILWY recipients are...


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## FlaGirl

I see your point technovelist, and no, I did not tell my husband I was not sexually attracted to him before we married. As "Surprisemyself" said, it's complex. I fell in love with my husband as a whole person and it was not like I had no sexual feelings towards him, otherwise it would not have worked at all. But consider years later when "life" gets involved and all you deal with and that "special" feeling needs to be worked on, add all that and the length of a marriage (in my case 22 years) and it becomes more difficult to keep the spark alive if you realize it never really burned bright. Does that make sense?

There was no deception in going into my marriage. I felt healthy, safe,cared for and I did find my husband attractive, but it is true I did not have a lot of sexual feelings. I did try to maintain our sexual bond and I can say all these years he knew how to "push my buttons" in a good way, as most long-term partners do because you know one another. But in all honesty,he is not a part of my fantasies. That's why they are fantasies, right? People who have married someone whom they are emotionally and sexually attracted to and can maintain both are very lucky. All relationships take work no matter what. You could have people who married because their sexual appetites clicked so well, yet years later or sooner come to find out they have absolutely nothing going for their relationship except for good sex. I didn't want that. Now, as the years have rolled on and I see the incompatability, it only makes the lack of attraction I feel that much stronger. It magnified things, not on purpose, just what happened.


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## FlaGirl

SurpriseMyself said:


> There's a trend here I'm seeing that applies to my situation, too. Woman full of life and joy finds a stable, steady guy who doesn't rock her world but he's all the things her last man wasn't. This guy doesn't argue, keeps his cool, seems to cut through life with a knife as if nothing phases him. She feels safe, even if she's not totally in love or finds him a turn on sexually.
> 
> What she doesn't know is this man cuts through life and doesn't seem phased because he has shut down his emotions. He likes stability, sameness, hates conflict, and doesn't know how to have an emotional, intimate connection. Marriage is a picture he can show to the world. His wife, his kids, his job, his home just prove he is capable. But he doesn't love any of it, really. He just wants the picture without the emotional investment.
> 
> Eventually the wife will grow weary. She wants and needs that connection. She doesn't want to simply be a part of his picture - she wants a real marriage and a real life with connection. But what she doesn't know is that this man is not capable of that. He may even think she's selfish for not wanting the picture, because after all, it does look pretty good if you are outside looking in, which is exactly where he has always stood: outside. And he is very unlikely to change. He probably had a father just like him, or saw his parents sleep separately and never show affection, or saw his mom do 1000 things to avoid how empty se felt. And so he never saw what marriage could be and may not even want a real marriage. He may be totally fine with just the picture. And in that case, he needs to be with a woman like him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlaGirl

This is exactly what I would have said about my life and relationship. It does pain me a bit to think of my husband this way, but it is hitting home on so many levels.

Wow! Thank you for putting it into these terms as it is so true and honest and I see this so clearly in my relationship.

I have to say this, there have been times I actually thought my husband was gay. I know, totally different point of view or post, but like he wanted this "Family" picture but there was always something missing between us. I asked him several times, he denied it. He did grow up with a distant father and his parents relationship was far from healthy (separate rooms) no real connection.

I'M not sure how to quote and reply in the same box?? lol
Also, I need to figure out all the little initials and things, so bare with me


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## Ynot

FlaGirl said:


> I see your point technovelist, and no, I did not tell my husband I was not sexually attracted to him before we married. As "Surprisemyself" said, it's complex. I fell in love with my husband as a whole person and it was not like I had no sexual feelings towards him, otherwise it would not have worked at all. But consider years later when "life" gets involved and all you deal with and that "special" feeling needs to be worked on, add all that and the length of a marriage (in my case 22 years) and it becomes more difficult to keep the spark alive if you realize it never really burned bright. Does that make sense?
> 
> There was no deception in going into my marriage. I felt healthy, safe,cared for and I did find my husband attractive, but it is true I did not have a lot of sexual feelings. I did try to maintain our sexual bond and I can say all these years he knew how to "push my buttons" in a good way, as most long-term partners do because you know one another. But in all honesty,he is not a part of my fantasies. That's why they are fantasies, right? People who have married someone whom they are emotionally and sexually attracted to and can maintain both are very lucky. All relationships take work no matter what. You could have people who married because their sexual appetites clicked so well, yet years later or sooner come to find out they have absolutely nothing going for their relationship except for good sex. I didn't want that. Now, as the years have rolled on and I see the incompatability, it only makes the lack of attraction I feel that much stronger. It magnified things, not on purpose, just what happened.


This^^^^ is exactly what the saying "people change" is all about. We all fall in love for different reasons and often get married as a result. But what about when those reasons are no longer the driving motivations in our lives? 
As a 20 year old we may have been driven by the biological urges to procreate and the desire to have a stable, intact family to raise those children in. 
In our 40's the children are grown and (hopefully) independent, self sufficient fully functioning adults and the original motivations are no longer relevant. 
Sometimes, new common motivations replace the old ones, but more often than not, they don't. 
Instead we have couples staying together for no other real reason than "just because...". These people live lives of quiet desperation, not really happy, perhaps content, but more often just existing. 
Then we have others where one or the other decides that happiness is more important than "just because...". These people go their separate ways, sometimes amicably or more often as adversaries.As one side was more willing than the other to accept change and fought to maintain "just because..."


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## FlaGirl

Riptide,

Thank you for your kind words and I have thought about what I might be able to do to help my husband with his feelings once I am gone. I will leave him information on counseling (we have it with insurance for free), but he likley will not go. I already asked him about that when I first broached the subject a year ago.

Also, he uses the Kindle for surfing the net and I will download a book about the building blocks of moving on once a relationship ends. I ordered the physical book, so he wouldn't see it on the Kindle and it is very helpful about how to move past all the stages. I think in his quiet,alone time he MIGHT read it and I think it would be helpful for him as it is written by two men and is a good method for taking steps to get through this. 

I would tell him about this site but would need to delete all of my posts as this is my personal take and would not want him to figure it out (you know what I mean), but I do think you would be a great resource for him and I so appreciate the thought and concern!


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## FlaGirl

Ynot


EXACTLY! Well said and thank you!!


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## Trickster

FlaGirl-

Mid-life awakening here too.

After 23 years and some IC, I finally realized that we have always had a platonic marriage. That worked for a very long time. I was in love with the idea of love. I wanted the wife, kids, house, good neighbors, friends. I wanted a wife that wouldn't abandon me. I found that woman. 

I was that nice man who became the provider and gave her security, which is what she wanted. We had that friendship thing going on. I wanted romance to grow. In return, we had a child. We have/had the friendship, companionship, and provide an intact home for our daughter. My wife is content and wants things to continue. I want more. I grew, we grew apart.

Like you, I changed. I changed the rules, I expected my wife to have a romantic love for me that was never there. I always hoped romantic love would grow. After 23 years, it never did.

My wife is totally dependent on me financially. She was a SAHM way longer than we agreed on. Financially, There isn't enough money and savings for my wife to survive. Even if she stayed in our home with me paying the mortgage and an additional 25% of my income, it wouldn't be enough without our 11 year old paying the price.

My wife and I tried to fake it for a few years, but that emotional connection was not there. Now that sex it totally gone, I think things are better. For me, I have found hobbys, interest, exercise, and friends to fill the void. We both get to be around our daughter daily, we have the companionship, friendship, and share expenses.

FlaGirl- do you want to remain friends once you divorce? 

If you let your husband keep everything, would he be generous and give you half anyway? 

I'd be willing to give my wife everything if we divorce. I would just take my clothes and a few personal things. I still love her. There just isn't enough for her to manage.

I wonder if your husband feels the same way as you once he gets past the shock. I know longer feel hurt when my wife told me she has platonic love for me. I feel the same as she does. 

Just my thoughts. You and your husband may do just fine with a divorce.


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## FlaGirl

Wow Trickster,

I feel for you because though you say you have found things to occupy your time and fill that void, don't you really want that romance and what goes along with it? I know I do. I see how you are stuck with her being completely dependent on you financially. She should look into getting some skills for employment, and maybe this is a topic for you to broach with her? What if something happened to you? Considering you have life insurance is one thing, but she really needs to have something on her own to be self-sufficient. Many couples do split where the wife was a SAHM, and they have to start over. It isn't easy but I'm sure you would be paying child support, and perhaps alimony but not sure.

It's good that it works for you guys but it sounds like you deserve more and desire more. Don't let your life disappear and away without having experienced true love. This kind of marriage works for millions and has for me until up to this point, but now I'm looking ahead and realizing I don't have all the time in the world and I want more. Thank you for your thoughts and perspective. I do feel my husband may have a weight lifted as well, after the intial shock and hurt. I am hoping it will help him grow too. Reminds me of the old Gladys Knight and the Pipps song,"Neither one of us,wants to be the first to say goodbye."


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## tech-novelist

FlaGirl said:


> I see your point technovelist, and no, I did not tell my husband I was not sexually attracted to him before we married. As "Surprisemyself" said, it's complex. I fell in love with my husband as a whole person and it was not like I had no sexual feelings towards him, otherwise it would not have worked at all. But consider years later when "life" gets involved and all you deal with and that "special" feeling needs to be worked on, add all that and the length of a marriage (in my case 22 years) and it becomes more difficult to keep the spark alive if you realize it never really burned bright. Does that make sense?
> 
> There was no deception in going into my marriage. I felt healthy, safe,cared for and I did find my husband attractive, but it is true I did not have a lot of sexual feelings. I did try to maintain our sexual bond and I can say all these years he knew how to "push my buttons" in a good way, as most long-term partners do because you know one another. But in all honesty,he is not a part of my fantasies. That's why they are fantasies, right? People who have married someone whom they are emotionally and sexually attracted to and can maintain both are very lucky. All relationships take work no matter what. You could have people who married because their sexual appetites clicked so well, yet years later or sooner come to find out they have absolutely nothing going for their relationship except for good sex. I didn't want that. Now, as the years have rolled on and I see the incompatability, it only makes the lack of attraction I feel that much stronger. It magnified things, not on purpose, just what happened.


Sexual attraction is much more important in marriage these days than it used to be, in terms of family stability.

That's because it used to be hard to get divorced, so most people stayed married even though they didn't have much of that attraction.

Of course that doesn't mean that they were deliriously happy, but family stability is quite important, especially to young children.

So although the upside of relatively easy divorce is that people don't have to stay married if they are unhappy, there is a downside too, of family instability.

Sexual incompatibility or lack of attraction is of course not the only source of family instability, but it is a rather serious one because if one runs into someone who provides that attraction that is lacking in ones' marriage, events can erupt very rapidly. Many other sources of instability, such as financial problems, tend to be more gradual and can perhaps be dealt with more easily as a result.


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## FlaGirl

Also to answer your question, I would truly love to remain friends or become friends again (after he stops hating me) after the divorce. We plan to downsize in the Spring, and pay off bills (this was already in the works), so he would be free to get the kind of place he truly wants (a smaller house,bigger garage). We have a cabin as well and this was his dream. He makes about 3 times more than I and I would not be able to afford to pay the mortgage on it, though small, and I would give up my part of it. IF he were to sell, I would want half, but not sure if that can be stipulated. I think he would agree to that arrangment, if it doesn't go to our children, and he decides to sell it. 

I plan to leave for a few boxes of personal items and my clothes and car. The vehicles are paid off. I will get half of his 401K, which makes me feel bad, but I need it to start over. It's also our state law. He can have all of the household items (furniture,etc) so I feel I am being very fair. Children are 21 & 19, so no child support. It could be an easy split on those levels, but emotionally will be very hard. I also plan to leave the state and go back South, so that weighs heavy on my guilt, leaving the kids. It's a small town here and I would prefer to not stay for so many reasons. It may be easier for both of us to move on too. 

Though my husband has been the bigger bread winner in our house, I have always worked. I would never ask for alimony, even though we have been married for 22 years. I can manage on my own, having lived as a single Mom with only a waitress job before I met him, I can certainly do it now that I have some education under my belt.


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## SurpriseMyself

technovelist said:


> Ok, but did you share your (relative) lack of attraction with your fiance(s)/future husbands/LTR partners?
> 
> Let's say a woman told me that she really liked me except for not being terribly attracted to me sexually, but hoped that would come in time. If I went ahead with a relationship with that knowledge, at least if it didn't work out, I wouldn't be blindsided as so many of the ILYBINILWY recipients are...


I have heard many times on TAM that you should never say such a thing to a man. That it's just about the worst thing you can say. And no, I didn't. I did once with another guy, years ago, and he got up, walked out of my apartment, and never spoke to me again. We had been together a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

SurpriseMyself said:


> I have heard many times on TAM that you should never say such a thing to a man. That it's just about the worst thing you can say. And no, I didn't. I did once with another guy, years ago, and he got up, walked out of my apartment, and never spoke to me again. We had been together a year.


So apparently you have concluded that you shouldn't tell a partner that because he might leave you if you tell him.

Have you considered that a partner might have a right to know how you feel about him, even if that is the result?


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## Trickster

FlaGirl said:


> Wow Trickster,
> 
> I feel for you because though you say you have found things to occupy your time and fill that void, don't you really want that romance and what goes along with it? I know I do. I see how you are stuck with her being completely dependent on you financially. She should look into getting some skills for employment, and maybe this is a topic for you to broach with her? What if something happened to you? Considering you have life insurance is one thing, but she really needs to have something on her own to be self-sufficient. Many couples do split where the wife was a SAHM, and they have to start over. It isn't easy but I'm sure you would be paying child support, and perhaps alimony but not sure.
> 
> It's good that it works for you guys but it sounds like you deserve more and desire more. Don't let your life disappear and away without having experienced true love. This kind of marriage works for millions and has for me until up to this point, but now I'm looking ahead and realizing I don't have all the time in the world and I want more. Thank you for your thoughts and perspective. I do feel my husband may have a weight lifted as well, after the intial shock and hurt. I am hoping it will help him grow too. Reminds me of the old Gladys Knight and the Pipps song,"Neither one of us,wants to be the first to say goodbye."


I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. For some reason, being that I didn't have it, I seemed to want a family even more. Maybe I'd be able to relive the childhood that I never had. An old high school friend told me that he always saw me as a family man. Like I said, I was in love with the idea of love. 

I want to experience romantic love, lust, desire. I also want to have chemistry. I want to have a few things in common as well. I've become an OK conversationalist. I have several female friends and if I was single, part of me feels something could be there romantically. I get no hint of them wanting anything romantically. I don't think they would tell me anything as long as I am married. I would want them to.

I realize my story is not all that different than many others. A couple generations ago, women were stuck in an unhappy marriage because they didn't have their own income. My wife is the same. Over the past 10 years, I always tried to encourage her to take classes and keep one foot in the door with work. I did most house work to give her a break, give her time away. She never had a desire to have a simple hobby. Mostly, she still doesn't know what she wants to do.

My dad abandoned us and my mom was totally helpless. I dont want to do the same. For the life of me, I don't know why she is content. We have talked about it and she has no desire to find love.


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## sapientia

FlaGirl said:


> I am a medical assistant, do not make a lot of money but I can take care of myself.


What does your husband do? Will you expect him to pay you alimony when you leave?


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## SurpriseMyself

technovelist said:


> So apparently you have concluded that you shouldn't tell a partner that because he might leave you if you tell him.
> 
> Have you considered that a partner might have a right to know how you feel about him, even if that is the result?


Have you considered that probably 50% of women feel this way? 

Consider this: Love? Trust? No, a GOOD-LOOKING wife makes for a happy marriage (according to men, at least...) | Daily Mail Online

And this: http://www.psypost.org/2010/04/happy-marriage-attractive-husband-562

Let's be real - men are hairy in strange locations. They burp and fart and pick their noses and put their hand down their pants while sitting on the sofa. They might go all day on a Saturday or even all weekend without showering. Women look past these things if all is well. And guys typically just say, "hey! I'm a guy! Deal with it!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

SurpriseMyself said:


> Have you considered that probably 50% of women feel this way? I remember reading a study where the most solid marriages were those where the woman was more physically attractive than the man. I will look for it.


Yes, but men are more shallow than women. Men are generally sexually attracted to women primarily based on physical attractiveness above other attributes. Of course women are also sexually attracted to men based on their looks, but men's attractiveness level to their mates is also based on their behavior ("alpha" vs. "beta") and possibly other idiosyncratic attributes such as intelligence, humor, etc.

Thus it is possible for a woman to be married to someone less physically attractive than she is but who is still sexually attractive to her. I am in that situation because my wife is definitely more physically attractive than I am, but my personality makes up for that.



SurpriseMyself said:


> Let's be real - men are hairy in strange locations. They burp and fart and pick their noses and put their hand down their pants while sitting on the sofa. They might go all day on a Saturday or even all weekend without showering. Women look past these things if all is well. And guys typically just say, "hey! I'm a guy! Deal with it!"


Some guys do, but some also try to keep their attractiveness level up or increase it if it has flagged.


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## SurpriseMyself

technovelist said:


> Yes, but men are more shallow than women. Men are generally sexually attracted to women primarily based on physical attractiveness above other attributes. Of course women are also sexually attracted to men based on their looks, but men's attractiveness level to their mates is also based on their behavior ("alpha" vs. "beta") and possibly other idiosyncratic attributes such as intelligence, humor, etc.
> 
> Thus it is possible for a woman to be married to someone less physically attractive than she is but who is still sexually attractive to her. I am in that situation because my wife is definitely more physically attractive than I am, but my personality makes up for that.
> 
> 
> 
> Some guys do, but some also try to keep their attractiveness level up or increase it if it has flagged.


Check out the links in my edited post. Men need to understand that if they stop paying attention to their wives, or take her for granted, all the pecs and glutes in the world won't make her want you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Big Dude

SurpriseMyself said:


> I have heard many times on TAM that you should never say such a thing to a man.
> 
> *This should be no surprise. About 50% of TAM members routinely advise lying and deception as a legitimate form of manipulation and self-protection.*
> 
> That it's just about the worst thing you can say. And no, I didn't. I did once with another guy, years ago, and he got up, walked out of my apartment, and never spoke to me again. We had been together a year.
> 
> *Good for him, and good for you (although you seemed to have learned the wrong lesson.) That relationship was doomed from the start. Your honesty and his intelligence and self respect got it over with sooner and less painfully than if you had continued your deception.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

SurpriseMyself said:


> Check out the links in my edited post. Men need to understand that if they stop paying attention to their wives, or take her for granted, all the pecs and glutes in the world won't make her want you.


I didn't say that they should do that. However, being too attentive can also backfire on a man.

Again, this is because, in general, female sexual response is more complex than male sexual response.


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## SurpriseMyself

Again - if you are happily married, it's likely your wife is more physically attractive than you. If she is happy and you are, would you want to know the secret? Cause she probably is keeping that from you for the sake of your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself

technovelist said:


> I didn't say that they should do that. However, being too attentive can also backfire on a man.
> 
> Again, this is because, in general, female sexual response is more complex than male sexual response.


Men with more attractive wives worked harder to keep them, since they saw their attractive wife as something they didn't want to lose. Whatever form that takes (working harder) is based on the woman. Of course, few women are happy with milquetoast!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

SurpriseMyself said:


> Again - if you are happily married, it's likely your wife is more physically attractive than you. If she is happy and you are, would you want to know the secret? Cause she probably is keeping that from you for the sake of your marriage.


I've already said that she is more attractive than I am. However, by her behavior I'm pretty sure she finds me attractive *enough*. If her behavior changed to indicate that she no longer found me sufficiently attractive, we would have a very serious conversation about it.


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## SurpriseMyself

technovelist said:


> I've already said that she is more attractive than I am. However, by her behavior I'm pretty sure she finds me attractive *enough*. If her behavior changed to indicate that she no longer found me sufficiently attractive, we would have a very serious conversation about it.


And that conversation would likely end with how you treat her needing improvement, not your stomach muscles vs beer belly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

SurpriseMyself said:


> And that conversation would likely end with how you treat her needing improvement, not your stomach muscles vs beer belly.


Very possibly, since as I've said repeatedly on this thread, women's sexual response has more to do with behavior than men's does. I'm not sure why you seem to be arguing with me when we agree on this.


----------



## wmn1

bashfulbull said:


> i say do what you can to save the marriage. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Talk to your husband and see if the two of you can come up with a compromise that does not include divorce or cheating or any of that open marriage nonsense.
> 
> Maybe the two of you would do good to live apart for a while... That is if the two of you have the resolve to stay faithful.
> 
> Your husband sounds a lot like my dad. He was very closed off emotionally, but he and my mom found out ways to get around that.
> 
> I dunno. Your story makes me sad. I'm so in love with my wife, if she left me like you are considering leaving your husband, i'd probably drive my truck off a cliff.




i agree completely bashfulbull


----------



## wmn1

technovelist said:


> I think it is a terrible idea to marry someone that you aren't attracted to sexually, especially without mentioning that important fact to the other person. I've seen several cases like that and they generally don't work out well.
> 
> Of course not everyone realizes the importance of this, but that doesn't make it hurt less when it happens.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course.



I agree with this completely !!


----------



## Adelais

FlaGirl,

If your husband lost weight, upped the sex drive, became interested in activities you like, shared his inmost feelings with you, and acted like a man who knew all the women in a crowded room were attracted to him, do you think you might find him more interesting? Would you consider giving him a second chance?

If your answer is yes, I'd say don't leave him just yet. Stick around TAM, and you will get advice of things you might do to put a fire under your H's a*s so he will get busy improving himself and be a more active, attractive husband. And I'm not talking walk around in sexy lingerie, as I'm sure you've already tried that many times. It is him that needs a wake-up call, not you who needs to change.

But even if he changed, would it be too late for you?


----------



## FlaGirl

I will not ask for alimony.


----------



## Dude007

Flagirl rocks! The rest of you are arguing about nebulous **** that honestly doesn't apply here. We just want OUT!! Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FlaGirl

I would not expect my husband (at this point) to change all of those things. He is who he is and I am who I am. I am at the point that it is too late for me, sadly, but in coming to this point I have realized what I truly want and do not want. I'm afraid I may never find someone as good as him. In that I mean he is a calm, non-violent, half glass full man. He rarely gets upset, he isn't a sports fannatic (that ignores me during season), he isn't a cheater, druggie or alcoholic. What more could I want?

I want attraction, shared laughter and interests. I started to do things that I wanted to do and part of it was that he would join in (ex: Halloween party) but the more I do, the less he likes. Music is a big thing for me, listening that is. We went to a concert with some friends, I loved it, having not had that opportunity a lot when I was younger and a single Mom. He was not too much into it. In fact I think he would have preferred to sit there the whole time. He liked the bands too. We talked about how it is a passion of mine and I'd like to see more concerts, and he said he gets that and it just isn't something he feels he needs to do, so I got tickets to a concert with a friend (female) and since it is 3 hours South, she got a room. He seemed upset about this like why i didn't invite him. I actually did mention it, he shrugged it off. I went about my plans and got very annoyed by the whole thing. I'm not sure he believed I was going with a female, since he doesn't know her ( my massage lady) and he thought it strange. I had to laugh. When I explained she is married,etc and he told me to go and do then the air was cleared. Now mind you he has never had a jealous bone EVER in our marriage, which is wonderful but now it is coming up as I do and go and experience life, but I have always wanted to include him, he prefers to piddle in the garage or watch tv. He's 53, not like we are retired yet. He is 5 years older than I.
Back to that jealousy. I think he sees me moving away from him (in spirit) and so maybe it has brought about this side of him? There were times in our marriage I actually wished he'd show some jealousy and i do not mean controlling stuff, I mean when a man has made a pass at me and nothing, nothing from my husband to show me,hey you're mine. You ladies know what I mean? 
On another note, I want to get to know me on my own,outside of a marriage. I don't want to discuss the $20 I spent at the drugstore, plan every meal around others, be responsible for someone elses happiness all the time. I care for him deeply and do love him, and I always will, put all of this together and I would like to pursue a life different now, now that I'm older and in Mid-Life. BTW, you can't "change" anyone, only you can change yourself.


----------



## Ynot

FlaGirl said:


> I would not expect my husband (at this point) to change all of those things. He is who he is and I am who I am. I am at the point that it is too late for me, sadly, but in coming to this point I have realized what I truly want and do not want. I'm afraid I may never find someone as good as him. In that I mean he is a calm, non-violent, half glass full man. He rarely gets upset, he isn't a sports fannatic (that ignores me during season), he isn't a cheater, druggie or alcoholic. What more could I want?
> 
> I want attraction, shared laughter and interests. I started to do things that I wanted to do and part of it was that he would join in (ex: Halloween party) but the more I do, the less he likes. Music is a big thing for me, listening that is. We went to a concert with some friends, I loved it, having not had that opportunity a lot when I was younger and a single Mom. He was not too much into it. In fact I think he would have preferred to sit there the whole time. He liked the bands too. We talked about how it is a passion of mine and I'd like to see more concerts, and he said he gets that and it just isn't something he feels he needs to do, so I got tickets to a concert with a friend (female) and since it is 3 hours South, she got a room. He seemed upset about this like why i didn't invite him. I actually did mention it, he shrugged it off. I went about my plans and got very annoyed by the whole thing. I'm not sure he believed I was going with a female, since he doesn't know her ( my massage lady) and he thought it strange. I had to laugh. When I explained she is married,etc and he told me to go and do then the air was cleared. Now mind you he has never had a jealous bone EVER in our marriage, which is wonderful but now it is coming up as I do and go and experience life, but I have always wanted to include him, he prefers to piddle in the garage or watch tv. He's 53, not like we are retired yet. He is 5 years older than I.
> Back to that jealousy. I think he sees me moving away from him (in spirit) and so maybe it has brought about this side of him? There were times in our marriage I actually wished he'd show some jealousy and i do not mean controlling stuff, I mean when a man has made a pass at me and nothing, nothing from my husband to show me,hey you're mine. You ladies know what I mean?
> On another note, I want to get to know me on my own,outside of a marriage. I don't want to discuss the $20 I spent at the drugstore, plan every meal around others, be responsible for someone elses happiness all the time. I care for him deeply and do love him, and I always will, put all of this together and I would like to pursue a life different now, now that I'm older and in Mid-Life. BTW, you can't "change" anyone, only you can change yourself.


As I said at the beginning of this thread, I have experienced this from the other side. I can tell you that after a year of introspection and reflection I could have distilled the end of my marriage down into the same narrative but from the other side. I was a lot like your husband is. I was introspective. I felt my wife moving away and did nothing really to stop it. I can empathize with where you are coming from. I understand now why I behaved the way I did. I didn't know any better and I am not saying that in a bad way either. I really was doing the best that I knew how to do. I had lost who I was focusing on the picture. So had she.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OK I have a different take on this and am probably going to come across as harsh.

I agree that you should never marry someone that you are not attracted to.


I also think that you knew you were not attracted to your husband sexually when you met him (and as such should never have married him - that would have been the kind thing to do - not marry him then as opposed to "setting him free to find some one he deserves to be with").


I think you used him. You were in a bad state having just come out of a relationship where you were sexually attracted to your partner but there was nothing else there. I don't buy that you "fell in love with your husband in other ways" etc. He was a safe haven in your storm. He raised a family with you including your existing kid. He paid for holidays, homes etc etc. 

And now that the kids have flown the nest, you are ready to go out and have your fun. All the sugar coating in the world is not going to change that.

Still, I do believe that you shouldn't be with him if you are not sexually attracted to him and never have been. But at least have the decency to tell him the truth - that you were never attracted to him in this way and let him draw his own (honest) conclusions: that he has been used (he would be foolish to believe that you fell in love with him in other ways whatever that means).

You also say that there was some sexual attraction at first - I think what happened was that as life got more comfortable, you realised that you could and would have more sexual fun with other men (and not your husband) and you waited until you were in a position to do this and kind of walk away with your head held high.

BashfulBull rightly advised you to try to work it out but I don't think that you are going to do that - it sounds like you have been fantasising about this new found freedom for a long time.

If you have any affection for your husband, do not lie to him. Tell him the truth and let him deal with it. Then send him here.


----------



## FlaGirl

Something came to mind about movies. I loved 50 Shades of Grey. I guess in my excitement about it, I did talk about the books quite a bit. When the movie came out, I bought it and my husband (even though he had no interest) watched it. He could take it or leave it. I tried to explain there is more to it than bondage and BTW what's wrong with experimenting, especially with someone you trust enough to do that? He couldn't get past the way the woman was treated and said to me, "You are obsessed with this movie. I don't know why. You want someone to treat you like that?" I said no, of course not, it's a fantasy, he is unable to connect emotionally, it's a BOOK/MOVIE and there is a story behind it as well (Books 2 & 3 to come) which evolve into what makes this man change and become emotional. He got so hung up on all the bondage and the way Christian treated Anna, that he seemed to really be threatened by the whole thing. I wished he had been more like, hey that looks hot...haha! I think lots of woman got into this movie because it showed we are sexual beings, we can enjoy these types of things and there is actually a love story to the whole thing.
I've also watched Eat,Pray,Love and The Private Lives of Pippa Lee. Movies that gave me strength to move forward and hit home with me on so many levels. I realized this is not a "phase" I am going through.


----------



## Trickster

Empty nest divorce: the kids are gone and so is the magic | Communities Digital News

Maybe this is the new normal. We meet somebody who we think would be a good provider and parent to our future kids. Mutual attraction and sexual chemistry are important, but security tends to trump everything else. So when kids come along, for many couples, the kids seem to be more important than our spouse, even though we would never admit to that. We should ensure our children have the best that we can provide and help pay for college if possible. We bring them into this world. We have to do our best until they are out of the house and on their own. That's our job. There's a song by Conway Twitty called "That's my job". That about describes it.

Maybe if we look at marriage knowing that when the kids are gone, the marriage contract is dissolved. We could mentally and financially plan ahead of time. Assets are split and both move on, unless they want to renew the marriage contract.


My wife has about 7 more years to find a career and become somewhat independent. We've discussed this so many times now. No surprises.

People marry for selfish reasons. We settle for safe. Maybe, when we are younger, we don't believe we can have it all.After 23 years, I am not even close to who I was at 25. People change.


----------



## FlaGirl

Dude007 said:


> Flagirl rocks! The rest of you are arguing about nebulous **** that honestly doesn't apply here. We just want OUT!! Dude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank You Dude,
Sometimes I think the ones who can't understand are diehard people who will stay in a marriage no matter what! And I mean no matter what!


----------



## Trickster

FlaGirl said:


> I think lots of woman got into this movie because it showed we are sexual beings, we can enjoy these types of things and there is actually a love story to the whole thing.


I think people liked it, not for the bandage, but its the DESIRE we all want. Christian actually desired Anna. Alot! That's what we want. At least most of us sexual people.


----------



## just got it 55

FlaGirl said:


> Something came to mind about movies. I loved 50 Shades of Grey. I guess in my excitement about it, I did talk about the books quite a bit. When the movie came out, I bought it and my husband (even though he had no interest) watched it. He could take it or leave it. I tried to explain there is more to it than bondage and BTW what's wrong with experimenting, especially with someone you trust enough to do that? He couldn't get past the way the woman was treated and said to me, "You are obsessed with this movie. I don't know why. You want someone to treat you like that?" I said no, of course not, it's a fantasy, he is unable to connect emotionally, it's a BOOK/MOVIE and there is a story behind it as well (Books 2 & 3 to come) which evolve into what makes this man change and become emotional. He got so hung up on all the bondage and the way Christian treated Anna, that he seemed to really be threatened by the whole thing. I wished he had been more like, hey that looks hot...haha! I think lots of woman got into this movie because it showed we are sexual beings, we can enjoy these types of things and there is actually a love story to the whole thing.
> *I've also watched Eat,Pray,Love and The Private Lives of Pippa Lee. Movies that gave me strength to move forward and hit home with me on so many levels. I realized this is not a "phase" I am going through*.


Now I understand

55


----------



## FlaGirl

manfromlamancha said:


> OK I have a different take on this and am probably going to come across as harsh.
> 
> I agree that you should never marry someone that you are not attracted to.
> 
> 
> I also think that you knew you were not attracted to your husband sexually when you met him (and as such should never have married him - that would have been the kind thing to do - not marry him then as opposed to "setting him free to find some one he deserves to be with").
> 
> 
> I think you used him. You were in a bad state having just come out of a relationship where you were sexually attracted to your partner but there was nothing else there. I don't buy that you "fell in love with your husband in other ways" etc. He was a safe haven in your storm. He raised a family with you including your existing kid. He paid for holidays, homes etc etc.
> 
> And now that the kids have flown the nest, you are ready to go out and have your fun. All the sugar coating in the world is not going to change that.
> 
> Still, I do believe that you shouldn't be with him if you are not sexually attracted to him and never have been. But at least have the decency to tell him the truth - that you were never attracted to him in this way and let him draw his own (honest) conclusions: that he has been used (he would be foolish to believe that you fell in love with him in other ways whatever that means).
> 
> You also say that there was some sexual attraction at first - I think what happened was that as life got more comfortable, you realised that you could and would have more sexual fun with other men (and not your husband) and you waited until you were in a position to do this and kind of walk away with your head held high.
> 
> BashfulBull rightly advised you to try to work it out but I don't think that you are going to do that - it sounds like you have been fantasising about this new found freedom for a long time.
> 
> If you have any affection for your husband, do not lie to him. Tell him the truth and let him deal with it. Then send him here.


I did not use my husband and this attitude makes me very angry that you assume so. I have put myself out here and explained quite a bit of what is what in my marriage. You seem like an insecure man who probably would stay in a marriage no matter what. Maybe someone has hurt you so you are bitter?
No matter I find your comment very offensive and maybe you should go back and read more of what I have said. Also, I have put 23 years of my life into my marriage making my husband happy, thank you very much. I also have raised his children and worked the entire time, so to suggest I have used my husband while he paid for everything is ridiculious. I gave up things I wanted for him also. Moved to other states and started businesses twice, both failed and a subsequent bankruptcy resulted. I supported his desire to do these things and we got through the end result together. So please, save your anger and judging for someone else!


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## FlaGirl

just got it 55 said:


> Now I understand
> 
> 55


Do you?


----------



## FlaGirl

Trickster said:


> I think people liked it, not for the bandage, but its the DESIRE we all want. Christian actually desired Anna. Alot! That's what we want. At least most of us sexual people.


Absolutely!


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## just got it 55

FlaGirl said:


> Do you?


Sure do

55


----------



## manfromlamancha

But I feel no anger - I am just going on what you have said. I have no doubt that you put a lot of work into raising the kids too. Never said that you did not.


However I do believe that you married him because he offered you a level of stability and security that you didn't have before.


As another poster has pointed out, your interest in 50 shades of grey, eat pray love etc speaks volumes about your state of mind - and good for you. I agree that women (just like men) are sexual beings.


However, I stand by my statement that your husband (like many other men out there) has been used. 

And I did not say that you should stay in this marriage - I just said that you should be honest with your husband (and it seems, yourself too).


Your attack on me doesn't do anything to improve your credibility. I would not stay in an abusive marriage no matter what. But I would attempt to be honest if I chose to leave it because I had the hots for other women (and especially if it was something I did not have with my wife).


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## sapientia

So FlaGirl, I'm not sure what you want from TAM. Are you looking for validation or reassurance about your decision?

Like you, I stuck it out for almost 20 years in a marriage that wasn't a good fit for either of us. I stayed for our child and when he was old enough to understand, and it was clear my ex wasn't willing or interested to work on our zombie marriage, I left. One of the best decisions I ever made. Turned out well for him too.

You done your time. It's your life, go live it as you choose. Good luck.


----------



## FlaGirl

I'm not trying to attack you, I feel offended that you are not "getting" it and seem to want to make me feel as if I used my husband and want out to go party . Yes he gave me what I was looking for that I did not have, and good for me for wanting to be out of a bad situation and want a good man. Initially I was not that attracted to my husband, but I fell in love with him as a man, a person and thus the attraction was stronger for me, even if that "chemistry" was missing.

There is no need for me to tell him this, this is not the main focus of my wanting to divorce, it became more of an issue after the compatibility has become so apparent. Many people (probably a good majority) do not marry someone who is their ideal sexual attraction, and then somewhere down the line when others things begin to surface, this also comes forefront where maybe it wasn't so important before. 

Those movies are for anyone to watch and just because they ring a bell for me, does not put me into a fantasy world where no ones feelings are considered and I watched them and thought, that's it, I want out. I would have left long ago if they'd had such an impression on me. I simply could relate and I'm sure many people could also relate.


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## Dude007

You mean you are "alive"?!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlaGirl

sapientia said:


> So FlaGirl, I'm not sure what you want from TAM. Are you looking for validation or reassurance about your decision?
> 
> Like you, I stuck it out for almost 20 years in a marriage that wasn't a good fit for either of us. I stayed for our child and when he was old enough to understand, and it was clear my ex wasn't willing or interested to work on our zombie marriage, I left. One of the best decisions I ever made. Turned out well for him too.
> 
> You done your time. It's your life, go live it as you choose. Good luck.


Thank you. Please tell me what TAM is? 
I'm not exactly looking for validation, just thought there could be others who could relate. This is a support group, right? I am struggling with guilt, I am sad and hurting despite the fact that I do want to go. It's not so simple. It's nice to hear from those who could make the break and each grew in turn. I would like to hear more of this and glad you were able to do so.


----------



## sapientia

Dude007 said:


> You mean you are "alive"?!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, shocking. There IS life after divorce. >


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## FlaGirl

Dude007 said:


> You mean you are "alive"?!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


and kicking!! lol


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## Dude007

I'll see you on the other side!! Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

FlaGirl said:


> Thank you. Please tell me what TAM is?
> I'm not exactly looking for validation, just thought there could be others who could relate. This is a support group, right? I am struggling with guilt, I am sad and hurting despite the fact that I do want to go. It's not so simple. It's nice to hear from those who could make the break and each grew in turn. I would like to hear more of this and glad you were able to do so.


TAM is this forum. Talk About Marriage.

Guilt is overrated. IMO, you aren't doing either one of you any favours by staying. If you are certain this is what you want for yourself, then end things as quickly and cleanly as you can. Staying will only lead to resentment for both of you. Just make SURE you know your mind before you act.

As I said, life DOES go on and the only way forward is to pass through. Try to make it as respectful and quick as you can. Who knows? Maybe you'll even stay friends. Not saying you must, but it happens.

My ex and I had a relatively painless divorce and now a very civil co-parenting relationship. We cover for each other for work travel, etc. His GF is nice. He's a bit intimidated by my H but they respect each other.

You aren't alone in having walked this path. Hope this helps.


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## Dude007

Well start our own site TAD. Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

FlaGirl said:


> Something came to mind about movies. I loved 50 Shades of Grey. I guess in my excitement about it, I did talk about the books quite a bit. When the movie came out, I bought it and my husband (even though he had no interest) watched it. He could take it or leave it. I tried to explain there is more to it than bondage and BTW what's wrong with experimenting, especially with someone you trust enough to do that? He couldn't get past the way the woman was treated and said to me, "You are obsessed with this movie. I don't know why. You want someone to treat you like that?" I said no, of course not, it's a fantasy, he is unable to connect emotionally, it's a BOOK/MOVIE and there is a story behind it as well (Books 2 & 3 to come) which evolve into what makes this man change and become emotional. He got so hung up on all the bondage and the way Christian treated Anna, that he seemed to really be threatened by the whole thing. I wished he had been more like, hey that looks hot...haha! I think lots of woman got into this movie because it showed we are sexual beings, we can enjoy these types of things and there is actually a love story to the whole thing.
> I've also watched Eat,Pray,Love and The Private Lives of Pippa Lee. Movies that gave me strength to move forward and hit home with me on so many levels. I realized this is not a "phase" I am going through.


I have trouble imagining any man, other than one into BDSM, who would find "50 shades of grey" hot. However, I know many women have the same opinion as you. 

This is an example of how men and women are very different.


----------



## FlaGirl

Trickster said:


> I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. For some reason, being that I didn't have it, I seemed to want a family even more. Maybe I'd be able to relive the childhood that I never had. An old high school friend told me that he always saw me as a family man. Like I said, I was in love with the idea of love.
> 
> I want to experience romantic love, lust, desire. I also want to have chemistry. I want to have a few things in common as well. I've become an OK conversationalist. I have several female friends and if I was single, part of me feels something could be there romantically. I get no hint of them wanting anything romantically. I don't think they would tell me anything as long as I am married. I would want them to.
> 
> I realize my story is not all that different than many others. A couple generations ago, women were stuck in an unhappy marriage because they didn't have their own income. My wife is the same. Over the past 10 years, I always tried to encourage her to take classes and keep one foot in the door with work. I did most house work to give her a break, give her time away. She never had a desire to have a simple hobby. Mostly, she still doesn't know what she wants to do.
> 
> My dad abandoned us and my mom was totally helpless. I dont want to do the same. For the life of me, I don't know why she is content. We have talked about it and she has no desire to find love.


It's because she is safe,taken care of that she wants no change. Some people don't need or desire the physical side. Sounds like this is not you. Do you feel if you downsized that perhpas she would be able to afford to go back to schol? Or afford you being able to leave? Sorry, I know you say this works for you but you're cheating yourself. You aren't your Dad and never will be and you have a right to also be happy.


----------



## Trickster

FlaGirl said:


> Thank you. Please tell me what TAM is?
> I'm not exactly looking for validation, just thought there could be others who could relate. This is a support group, right? I am struggling with guilt, I am sad and hurting despite the fact that I do want to go. It's not so simple. It's nice to hear from those who could make the break and each grew in turn. I would like to hear more of this and glad you were able to do so.


TAM is a supply group, its a place to vent, get advice, opinions, learn through the experiences of others. It's also a place for validation. Guilt and obligation to my wife keeps me around. I accepted this early on. 

FlaGirl- not everybody will agree with everything you say. Many people here feel they have been put through the ringer. They are hurting as well.


----------



## Trickster

FlaGirl said:


> It's because she is safe,taken care of that she wants no change. Some people don't need or desire the physical side. Sounds like this is not you. Do you feel if you downsized that perhpas she would be able to afford to go back to schol? Or afford you being able to leave? Sorry, I know you say this works for you but you're cheating yourself. You aren't your Dad and never will be and you have a right to also be happy.


We don't need to downsize, our mortgage is way less than places much smaller. We bought at a very good time. Even if we were to sell, if still wouldn't be enough. We have enough money for my wife to start taking classes. We have a community college just a few miles away. She just doesn't have a clue what she wants. 

Am I cheating myself of finding love? IDK. I am still trying to recover from when my wife told me she has always loved me as a friend and sex never made her feel more loved. Although it's getting better, my confidence sucks at the moment.

My vote is that you never tell your husband about your lack of desire for him. Keep it simple. Just say that the two of you grew too far apart


----------



## FlaGirl

Trickster said:


> TAM is a supply group, its a place to vent, get advice, opinions, learn through the experiences of others. It's also a place for validation. Guilt and obligation to my wife keeps me around. I accepted this early on.
> 
> FlaGirl- not everybody will agree with everything you say. Many people here feel they have been put through the ringer. They are hurting as well.


 That is so true and I feel their pain, I do. Thanks for the reminder.


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## sapientia

Dude007 said:


> Well start our own site TAD. Dude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Talk About Divorce and Affairs?

"TADA"! :laugh:


----------



## Ynot

FlaGirl said:


> Many people (probably a good majority) do not marry someone who is their ideal sexual attraction,


How would one even begin to know what their ideal sexual attraction is when they marry? People change, people are exposed to new ideas, different perspectives. Your ideal at 20 may be completely different than your ideal at 40 or 50. You even said your husband was caught up in the idea of how women are supposed to be treated. That is something that is wrong with him. It is a trap that many fall into. What different does it make "how women are supposed to be treated"? How did YOU want to be treated. He was unwilling to make the effort. You may have been unable to make the effort to meet his ideal either. The only reason one should ever stay in any relationship is because they want to, not because of an oath or a promise or an ideal or a feeling from the past.


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## SurpriseMyself

Trickster said:


> We don't need to downsize, our mortgage is way less than places much smaller. We bought at a very good time. Even if we were to sell, if still wouldn't be enough. We have enough money for my wife to start taking classes. We have a community college just a few miles away. She just doesn't have a clue what she wants.
> 
> Am I cheating myself of finding love? IDK. I am still trying to recover from when my wife told me she has always loved me as a friend and sex never made her feel more loved. Although it's getting better, my confidence sucks at the moment.
> 
> My vote is that you never tell your husband about your lack of desire for him. Keep it simple. Just say that the two of you grew too far apart


I agree that telling him will just hurt without helping him. Why some here keep pushing for it, I think, is because they think you deserve some kind of punishment for your crime. But at what cost? What good would it do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia

SurpriseMyself said:


> I agree that telling him will just hurt without helping him. Why some here keep pushing for it, I think, is *because they think you deserve some kind of punishment for your crime.* But at what cost? What good would it do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, what crime? Did I miss something? I don't remember reading she was cheating.

There is no crime to sticking it out in a marriage for over 20 years and then deciding to move on if that is the decision she feels is best.


----------



## FlaGirl

The crime of wanting a divorce, hurting him is what she means, I do believe


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## sapientia

As opposed to staying in a zombie marriage and living a lie? And perhaps eventually becoming so emotionally vulnerable that you DO end up in an affair, emotional or physical?

Yes, that would hurt him ever so much less... I think you are being very thoughtful about your choices. My only additional advise would be to discuss your feelings with him. Don't blindside him.

Certainly, by the time I threw in the towel, we both knew it was over. Noone was blindsided. It was actually a relief. Have the open dialogue. You might be surprised at what he is feeling also.

You present an interesting conundrum for the usual TAM rabble. Not a cheater, just thinking about ending your marriage before it comes to that. Not an evil sinner, just someone looking for more from life now that the kids are mostly grown up. How selfish of you! (not)

Personally, I wish more people like you came here rather than waiting until the typical "I've screwed my friend/neighbour/boss and we're in love... but I'm married with 3 young kids. Should I tell my husband? Is this okay?"


----------



## FlaGirl

I can't seem to come up with the words to explain this to my husband. I think I will say some of what I see here:
That I care for him but I no longer want to be married. I do feel we are incompatible and it has become too much so for me. That I want to pursue my life in a different way now and find me (so cliche') . That I hope we can both grow from both the years we shared and as individuals. 
I don't know...ugh
I brought up divorce a year ago. I did the whole,"I love you but I'm not sure I am in love with you." Looking back,I was trying to be truthful and yet it didn't come close to what I was feeling, all the parts of why...incompatibility, etc and my desire to be on my own now. He was devastated. We had a few days of pondering it, and the hurt I caused made me re-think and try some more. But I have been sliding since, stuffing my feelings but yet he knows it's getting all "weird" again by my distancing myself. He is no dummy. I think he may also be ready, though I do think he could go on like this forever. I would do it now, but heading out of town for Thanksgiving and our kids are going with us also (21 & 19) and then there is Christmas, so i would like to keep it together until the holidays are over. There is also a 4 month waiting period in my state.

Can I ask a question off topic: Anyone have to split a 401K and did they take the 10% penality and what about taxes? The divorce will be 2016 so when I get the 401K, will I owe taxes (taken right away) or I have also read that they take the 10% penalty but not taxes 20% if a QDRO is in place, yet it will be my income (part of it for 2015), so then would I have to pay taxes on it in 2017? Confusing me and just trying to have my ducks in order.


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## sapientia

I wouldn't be quite so blunt as that. Perhaps take him out for a quiet evening someplace you can talk about the future. Ask about his vision of your relationship now the kids are grown up. Listen to him, rather than you doing all the talking. You may be surprised.

Empty Nests: Flying Solo After the Kids Leave Home


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## sapientia

FlaGirl said:


> Can I ask a question off topic: Anyone have to split a 401K and did they take the 10% penality and what about taxes? The divorce will be 2016 so when I get the 401K, will I owe taxes (taken right away) or I have also read that they take the 10% penalty but not taxes 20% if a QDRO is in place, yet it will be my income (part of it for 2015), so then would I have to pay taxes on it in 2017? Confusing me and just trying to have my ducks in order.


I'm Canadian, so we don't have 401K. Is this a tax-sheltered investment vehicle for retirement? If so, the banks can typically set up a vehicle that is in your name so you don't have to cash it and pay tax. Depending on the form, you may have to lock it in until retirement.

I'll leave details to those here with more experience. My guess is someone here has been through this, or has US accounting expertise. Your divorce lawyer should also be able to advise on this.

The other thing you should do is make sure you make as much tax-sheltered contribution you can to avoid any tax on cash payouts from any investments that aren't sheltered. Again, not sure how this works in the US, but in Canada there is a maximum contribution we can make each year (your income permitting) in order to reduce our tax payable. 

Beyond that, you will need to look into other vehicles like flow through shares, or again if they are permitted.


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## FlaGirl

sapientia said:


> I wouldn't be quite so blunt as that. Perhaps take him out for a quiet evening someplace you can talk about the future. Ask about his vision of your relationship now the kids are grown up. Listen to him, rather than you doing all the talking. You may be surprised.
> 
> Empty Nests: Flying Solo After the Kids Leave Home


I pretty much know his view. Downsize, work, maybe get a condo in Fla for back and forth and retirement (as he knows I want to go back)become grandparents. Sounds lovely,right. It really does, yet why do I not see myself in it ?


----------



## sapientia

FlaGirl said:


> I pretty much know his view. Downsize, work, maybe get a condo in Fla for back and forth and retirement (as he knows I want to go back)become grandparents. *Sounds lovely,right. It really does, yet why do I not see myself in it ?*


That's a good question to think very hard on. That's certainly my plan with my H, though for us its Hawaii, not Florida. We both enjoy travel.

I couldn't ever see that future with my ex, however, and not from a lack of finances.

I still think you should discuss the future with him, if only to start to give him a heads up. Clearly there is a disconnect between you, because if that is his plan and with you in it, you haven't been transparent about your issues and needs.

Do you hate your H? Is there a reason why you can't have this open conversation with him? Does the idea of blindsiding him give you satisfaction in some way?

Not accusing, just grasping. I may be way off base.

I wish you well, FlaGirl on your journey.


----------



## BashfulB

FlaGirl said:


> I did not use my husband and this attitude makes me very angry that you assume so. I have put myself out here and explained quite a bit of what is what in my marriage. You seem like an insecure man who probably would stay in a marriage no matter what. Maybe someone has hurt you so you are bitter?
> No matter I find your comment very offensive and maybe you should go back and read more of what I have said. Also, I have put 23 years of my life into my marriage making my husband happy, thank you very much. I also have raised his children and worked the entire time, so to suggest I have used my husband while he paid for everything is ridiculious. I gave up things I wanted for him also. Moved to other states and started businesses twice, both failed and a subsequent bankruptcy resulted. I supported his desire to do these things and we got through the end result together. So please, save your anger and gjudging for someone else!



I actually agree with manfromlamancha. In fact, you would be surprised how many men would agree with him. See, your attitude is the reason why so many young men are no longer choosing to marry. Men today are paranoid of being used as providers and then being tossed aside twenty or thirty years later when their usefulness has passed. 

I feel very sorry for your husband. I feel even more sorry for you.


----------



## BashfulB

Ynot said:


> How would one even begin to know what their ideal sexual attraction is when they marry? People change, people are exposed to new ideas, different perspectives. Your ideal at 20 may be completely different than your ideal at 40 or 50. You even said your husband was caught up in the idea of how women are supposed to be treated. That is something that is wrong with him. It is a trap that many fall into. What different does it make "how women are supposed to be treated"? How did YOU want to be treated. He was unwilling to make the effort. You may have been unable to make the effort to meet his ideal either. The only reason one should ever stay in any relationship is because they want to, not because of an oath or a promise or an ideal or a feeling from the past.


Moral relativism. Bravo.


----------



## FlaGirl

sapientia said:


> That's a good question to think very hard on. That's certainly my plan with my H, though for us its Hawaii, not Florida. We both enjoy travel.
> 
> I couldn't ever see that future with my ex, however, and not from a lack of finances.
> 
> I still think you should discuss the future with him, if only to start to give him a heads up. Clearly there is a disconnect between you, because if that is his plan and with you in it, you haven't been transparent about your issues and needs.
> 
> Do you hate your H? Is there a reason why you can't have this open conversation with him? Does the idea of blindsiding him give you satisfaction in some way?
> 
> 
> Not accusing, just grasping. I may be way off base.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish you well, FlaGirl on your journey.


Thank You
I am not going to blind-side him. I will take my time. I won't just say,"I want a divorce." We've had many discussions about many issues. The whole thing is it's hard to hurt him, but no way around it and no i do not hate him at all. I do not get satisfaction out of doing this. I also do not want to be talked out of it by him. I gave it another year because i truly care for him.


----------



## sapientia

BashfulBull said:


> I actually agree with manfromlamancha. In fact, you would be surprised how many men would agree with him. See, your attitude is the reason why so many young men are no longer choosing to marry. Men today are *paranoid of being used as providers and then being tossed aside twenty or thirty years later when their usefulness has passed. *
> 
> I feel very sorry for your husband. I feel even more sorry for you.


I can't seem to think of a single example where a woman dedicated her life to her husband and raising children and was then cast aside for a younger woman...

You don't think her husband got anything out of this arrangement? If not, then he was a fool and a bad businessman. But I doubt that was the OPs case.

What is very interesting today is that marriage is very much "at will" for both men and women. Puts the focus on continuous improvement as opposed to signing a contract that implies bondage for life.

I personally think marriage should be a renewable contract. Every 10 years. It would put many of the divorce vulture lawyers out of business, build up the business of marriage retreats, and cause many lazy spouses to treat their other half better.


----------



## sapientia

FlaGirl said:


> Thank You
> I am not going to blind-side him. I will take my time. I won't just say,"I want a divorce." We've had many discussions about many issues. The whole thing is it's hard to hurt him, but no way around it and no i do not hate him at all. I do not get satisfaction out of doing this. I also do not want to be talked out of it by him. I gave it another year because i truly care for him.


Again, I wish you well. My final point is simply to think hard on what you really want and be creative in thinking about how you might achieve it. Your H sounds like a very decent man. "Love" has many forms, some more lasting and stable than others.

Many people think 'comfortable' and 'stable' is a negative. For others, often those who have seen a bit more of the world, it's the brass ring. You seem to have that bundled in a respectful, if slightly boring, spouse. Your H loves you after a very long marriage. I'd be very careful giving that up to seek a rush of excitement that you might otherwise find by taking up skydiving.


----------



## manfromlamancha

sapientia said:


> I can't seem to think of a single example where a woman dedicated her life to her husband and raising children and was then cast aside for a younger woman...
> 
> You don't think her husband got anything out of this arrangement? If not, *then he was a fool and a bad businessman.* But I doubt that was the OPs case.
> 
> What is very interesting today is that marriage is very much "at will" for both men and women. Puts the focus on continuous improvement as opposed to signing a contract that implies bondage for life.
> 
> I personally think *marriage should be a renewable contract. Every 10 years.* It would put many of the divorce vulture lawyers out of business, build up the business of marriage retreats, and cause many lazy spouses to treat their other half better.


I agree that her husband could well be a fool and a bad businessman. Maybe he should have imposed better penalty clauses on the marriage. In fact they should have had a 6 sigma approach to continuously improve the marriage or else bring in external contractors to improve it for them. Gotta say, this discussion is getting better by the minute.


And sure, rewrite the rules of marriage why don't we. Why stick at just renewing every 10 years. Why not have it renewed every 3 years and in fact source marital services as a service (from the cloud no less). And impose strict penalty clauses for those that break the marital contract first. Yep, getting priceless by the minute.




sapientia said:


> Again, I wish you well. My final point is simply to think hard on what you really want and be creative in thinking about how you might achieve it. Your H sounds like a very decent man. "Love" has many forms, some more lasting and stable than others.
> 
> *Many people think 'comfortable' and 'stable' is a negative. For others, often those who have seen a bit more of the world, it's the brass ring. You seem to have that bundled in a respectful, if slightly boring, spouse. Your H loves you after a very long marriage. I'd be very careful giving that up to seek a rush of excitement that you might otherwise find by taking up skydiving.*


On the other hand these are wise words. Instead of sky diving, maybe tell him that you were seeking thrills and excitement elsewhere as opposed to his boring and non-jealous ways, then tell him about your penchant for the 50 Shades Of Grey variety of excitement, give him a leather strap and see what happens when you are tied up - more exciting than sky diving maybe ?



SurpriseMyself said:


> I agree that telling him will just hurt without helping him. Why some here keep pushing for it, I think, is because they think you deserve some kind of punishment for your crime. But at what cost? What good would it do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So I guess that the better thing to do would be to 



Give him the ILYBNILWY spiel.


Let him go on wondering what it is he did wrong and what he could have done better.


Work with him on splitting the 401K as best you can (while his confusion continues and he has no idea he needs to be protecting his interests too).


Let him then watch you from afar as you get your excitement in Florida in Halloween party nights, music concerts, maybe even spring break with much more virile and exciting men and then draw his own conclusions.


Yep - priceless.




FlaGirl said:


> I pretty much know his view. Downsize, work, maybe get a condo in Fla for back and forth and retirement (as he knows I want to go back)become grandparents. Sounds lovely,right. It really does, yet why do I not see myself in it ?


Yeah, this sounds awful. Why would anyone want to do this ? As for the question, why do you not see yourself in it - I think you knew the answer to this almost at the start of your marriage.

As I said at the start, you should not be in a marriage that you don't want to be in - the only comment is be honest with him and give him a fighting chance of recovering from this by telling him the whole truth and not holding back anything or sugar coating anything or lying. Sure he got something out of the marriage too (maybe not what he was expecting). Thank him for his decency - tell him he was not as exciting as you had hoped and apologise for not leaving earlier when he may have had a better chance of finding someone more compatible.


----------



## Ynot

BashfulBull said:


> Moral relativism. Bravo.


Sexual attraction is not moral. There is no moral relativism here. If you really think you knew what you wanted sexually from someone before you even knew what the possible options are, you are delusional. People change as they grow and experience things and so do their wants and needs. It would be great if their partner evolved to satisfy those needs. But what about when they don't? According to the concept of moral absolutism, the OP should just suck it up and die with their needs and wants unmet, because they made a decision a long time ago before they knew what they know now.


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## Ynot

So let's see if I have this right - everybody knows exactly what they want out of life from the day they are born (apparently) and if they didn't then too bad because they made a choice at some point. Honor and commitment require that you never waver from that decision. 
As for myself, I would rather my SO be with me because she loves me and wants to be with me NOW, as opposed to being here because of some commitment she made years ago regardless of how miserable, unfulfilled or unsatisfied she is now and will be in the future.


----------



## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by FlaGirl View Post
> I pretty much know his view. Downsize, work, maybe get a condo in Fla for back and forth and retirement (as he knows I want to go back)become grandparents. Sounds lovely,right. It really does, yet why do I not see myself in it ?
> 
> Yeah, this sounds awful. Why would anyone want to do this ? As for the question, why do you not see yourself in it - I think you knew the answer to this almost at the start of your marriage.
> .


Because what she wants isn't what you want? All of us should just follow the same script. Life would be so much simpler if we all just wanted the same thing.


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## Florida_rosbif

Riptide said:


> I am not in your shoes but I understand you wanting passion in a marriage and sounds like you gave him ample opportunity to engage in the marriage. I wish he would have responded as it sounds like the marriage could have been salvaged if he chose to participate. It is sad when a marriage dissolves not from an overall lack of caring or love of one another but perhaps taking things for granted or a lack of willingness to work on the marriage. I can't honestly say if you should or shouldn't leave as only you know in your heart that you gave it your best and you came to the conclusion that things will never change and you can walk away guilt free. My advice to you would be to not drop it to him like an H-bomb as it sounds like from your previous discussion about divorce, he will take it really hard and will be in for a world of hurt and more so if he believes it came from out of nowhere. *Believe me, even if you gave subtle hints of unhappiness, he might not think you would actually pull the trigger. Sometimes, we males need to be hit over the head with a hammer to get the message so I would think of ways to bring up the discussion so he knows that when you do make the final decision, it won't seem like out of the blue.*


This and thrice this! My WS tells me that she's been expressing her dissatisfaction for 10 years. I have always put her occasional bad days with tears down to her hormonal cycle, and never thought that it would come to a head. 

So communicate, make it loud and clear, put down ultimatums, but don't do things in a way that will allow him to say "Well this is a surprise!".


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## Ynot

Florida_rosbif said:


> This and thrice this! My WS tells me that she's been expressing her dissatisfaction for 10 years. I have always put her occasional bad days with tears down to her hormonal cycle, and never thought that it would come to a head.
> 
> So communicate, make it loud and clear, put down ultimatums, but don't do things in a way that will allow him to say "Well this is a surprise!".


I honestly do not know if this is possible. I was miserable for the last few years of my marriage. I tried to talk to my ex about it. She did in fact tell me, several times in fact, that she was doing the best she could and if I didn't like it she was leaving. I, like you chalked it up the heat of the moment, her menstrual cycle or whatever. Then when she left I was still blind sided. Communications i great, but it takes two sides to have a dialogue and if both sides aren't speaking the same language it doesn't matter anyways.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ynot said:


> I honestly do not know if this is possible. I was miserable for the last few years of my marriage. I tried to talk to my ex about it. She did in fact tell me, several times in fact, that she was doing the best she could and if I didn't like it she was leaving. I, like you chalked it up the heat of the moment, her menstrual cycle or whatever. Then when she left I was still blind sided. Communications i great, but it takes two sides to have a dialogue and if both sides aren't speaking the same language it doesn't matter anyways.



Plus not being receptive and making the assumption of hormonal imbalance. When viewed in hindsight, it is obvious but sometimes we deceive ourselves into what we what to see. Somebody can threaten divorce and the other not take it seriously, I have seen that on here as well.

Also, perhaps the status of marriage gives a false sense of security. Some shrug off their partner's concern and think eventually they will get over it, or there is time to work things out later on.


----------



## Ynot

Mr.Fisty said:


> Plus not being receptive and making the assumption of hormonal imbalance. When viewed in hindsight, it is obvious but sometimes we deceive ourselves into what we what to see. Somebody can threaten divorce and the other not take it seriously, I have seen that on here as well.
> 
> Also, perhaps the status of marriage gives a false sense of security. Some shrug off their partner's concern and think eventually they will get over it, or there is time to work things out later on.


Yep, and for many maintaining the status of marriage trumps every other thing in our lives. Because, you know, you made that vow so many years ago. I honestly do not understand why anyone would want to be in a relationship held together by a vow rather than by real happiness.


----------



## Sammy64

Ynot said:


> Yep, and for many maintaining the status of marriage trumps every other thing in our lives. Because, you know, you made that vow so many years ago. *I honestly do not understand why anyone would want to be in a relationship held together by a vow rather than by real happiness*.


:iagree: QFT!!!!


----------



## tech-novelist

FlaGirl said:


> Can I ask a question off topic: Anyone have to split a 401K and did they take the 10% penality and what about taxes? The divorce will be 2016 so when I get the 401K, will I owe taxes (taken right away) or I have also read that they take the 10% penalty but not taxes 20% if a QDRO is in place, yet it will be my income (part of it for 2015), so then would I have to pay taxes on it in 2017? Confusing me and just trying to have my ducks in order.


My understanding is that a QDRO allows a 401k or other tax-deferred account to be split into one account for each person without any tax consequences from the split. As long as you don't cash it out, you won't have to pay taxes on it.

Note: not a tax attorney or CPA, do your own diligence, etc.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ynot said:


> Yep, and for many maintaining the status of marriage trumps every other thing in our lives. Because, you know, you made that vow so many years ago. I honestly do not understand why anyone would want to be in a relationship held together by a vow rather than by real happiness.



Society my friend. Two miserable people who wait for the other to die is consider a successful marriage where one where both divorce amicably is considered marriage failure.

Vows are all good when people that do find that someone they grow together with, but to expect people to remain constant is quite delusional thinking. What made someone happy in the past may not have so down the line. In the end, we are all responsible for making the choices that make us happy.

If the differences were minor and there is still a healthy amount between the couple to work with, I would say try working things out.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Ynot said:


> So let's see if I have this right - everybody knows exactly what they want out of life from the day they are born (apparently) and if they didn't then too bad because they made a choice at some point. Honor and commitment require that you never waver from that decision.
> As for myself, I would rather my SO be with me because she loves me and wants to be with me NOW, as opposed to being here because of some commitment she made years ago regardless of how miserable, unfulfilled or unsatisfied she is now and will be in the future.


The point that you continually seem to miss is not about sexual desires, or liking what other people like with regard to a happy marriage etc - it is about being honest with oneself and with one's spouse or partner.

The OP is simply being advised to be honest with her self and her husband. She came into the marriage with one set of wants or desires. They were met. She has another set of wants and desires and they can not be met by her husband. She kind of knew about these early on in the marriage but there were not as important then. They are now that the kids have flown the nest. She needs to simply tell him this so that he can make his own decisions and not drive himself crazy wondering what went wrong.


----------



## manfromlamancha

And as for wanting different things after some time together - absolutely that happens.

Some choose to put their own happiness above everything else - after all you only have one life and the pursuit of happiness is what it is all about. Others choose to understand the need for some compromise in order to ensure a level of happiness for both partners. Yet others make sacrifices and feel good about it.

Through this all there is no one right or wrong way and I get that. However, there are certain rules of conduct that are advised and honesty is at the top of these rules (and again I mean honesty with oneself as much as anyone else).

OP "fell in love" with her husband but not in a sexual way so much. The honest assessment of this might lead her to something that some may view as the ugly truth which is he was a source of stability and comfort.

She increasingly knew that he did not ring all her bells through the marriage when it came to thrills and a buzz. So she knew probably fairly early on (if she was honest with herself) that she would be leaving this marriage when the time was right (again an ugly truth to some).

Mercifully she didn't choose to cheat physically to satisfy the shortcomings. In fact, even if she did cheat it probably would not have led to her being satisfied (probably quite the opposite).

She wants to discover herself. Again, she probably knew this kind of earlier on.

Who knows what her husband really wants out of life and whether he is in the "compromise" or "self-sacrifice" camp. It will be easy to demonise him here since he cannot speak up for himself (not that she is doing this to any large extent).

So as I said, tell him exactly what you are thinking and give him enough credit for being able to work it out. And if he cannot send him here.

OP, on a side note, is your husband considered attractive by other women ? I am guessing you are considered attractive by other men.


----------



## just got it 55

Flagirl

THE TRUTH WILL ALWAYS BE

Just tell it.

He will need to accept it

Just have him read all the books that have fueled your***desire*** (TO Leave)

I am sure he will understand.

55


----------



## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> The point that you continually seem to miss is not about sexual desires, or liking what other people like with regard to a happy marriage etc - it is about being honest with oneself and with one's spouse or partner.
> 
> The OP is simply being advised to be honest with her self and her husband. She came into the marriage with one set of wants or desires. They were met. She has another set of wants and desires and they can not be met by her husband. She kind of knew about these early on in the marriage but there were not as important then. They are now that the kids have flown the nest. She needs to simply tell him this so that he can make his own decisions and not drive himself crazy wondering what went wrong.


Perhaps you can enlighten me where I ever advised the OP to be anything but honest. So does she need to be brutally honest? I would say no, she shouldn't be. There is no reason to twist the knife once it has been plunged. Telling him he is not sexually desirable? Sure, she might as well really crush his ego while she is at it - NOT!
The post you quoted was actually in response to another poster who seems to feel the OP has no right to her own happiness since she made a vow years ago, under different circumstances.


----------



## just got it 55

Ynot said:


> Perhaps you can enlighten me where I ever advised the OP to be anything but honest. So does she need to be brutally honest? I would say no, she shouldn't be. There is no reason to twist the knife once it has been plunged. Telling him he is not sexually desirable? Sure, she might as well really crush his ego while she is at it - NOT!
> The post you quoted was actually in response to another poster who seems to feel the OP has no right to her own happiness since she made a vow years ago, *under different circumstances*.


The only circumstances that changed is

She doesn't need his support anymore.

To be other than being completely honest would be taking the easy (cowardly) way out

However at least she remained faithful I will give her credit for that

After all all we preach on TAM is leave before you cheat.

OP has a right to her happiness her cost is her complete honesty

I for one believe that just as if she cheated and did not find the happiness she is entitled to I am skeptical she will find it in leaving

I do wish Flagirl well but my fear is she will not find it

However I think she needs to take that risk.

I am hopeful that she does find it but if not 

I wonder is Flagirl will have the courage to tell her H 

55


----------



## Ynot

just got it 55 said:


> The only circumstances that changed is
> 
> She doesn't need his support anymore.
> 
> To be other than being completely honest would be taking the easy (cowardly) way out
> 
> However at least she remained faithful I will give her credit for that
> 
> After all all we preach on TAM is leave before you cheat.
> 
> OP has a right to her happiness her cost is her complete honesty
> 
> I for one believe that just as if she cheated and did not find the happiness she is entitled to I am skeptical she will find it in leaving
> 
> I do wish Flagirl well but my fear is she will not find it
> 
> However I think she needs to take that risk.
> 
> I am hopeful that she does find it but if not
> 
> I wonder is Flagirl will have the courage to tell her H
> 
> 55


It is only your opinion that that is all that has changed. It may in fact be a primary part of it, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP is not happy. Should she just stick around just because?
Is that anymore fair to her husband than her leaving? Does her husband's contentment take precedence over her desire to find the happiness she now recognizes is not part of her life? 
As for the brutal honesty some here are promoting I have to ask if you hold yourself to those same standards because I am willing to bet that most marriages would not survive brutal honesty about our shortcomings or those of our SO. Why would brutal honesty be advised for a break up then?


----------



## just got it 55

FlaGirl said:


> This may be winded, I will try to keep it as to the point as I can. I prefer to have comments from those who have been through this or are going through this. I do not need permission, nor do I want "godly" people telling me I am a sinner or to just pray. Thank You, I pray enough!Those who can relate, I would appreciate your story.
> 
> *I have been married 22 years. I was previously in a relationship for 7 (had a son) that was abusive. Met and married a good,kind,wonderful man. We went through lot's of stuff as anyone would in a long-term marriage. I fell in love with so many things about my husband and do still love him, so this is VERY hard for me,but I am contemplating divorce. I never felt that "passion" for him, but we made it work, considering he also has what I would consider a low sex drive.*
> 
> I tried many things over the years, and he likes it on occassion, but has said it just isn't that important to him. Consider these things: Slipping into the shower with him, he washes up and gets out. Offering a "quickie" when he showed me his parents camper, saying it was too risky. Becoming a Pure Romance consultant and him not thinking much of it. I had the "sex" talk at 5,10,15 and 20 years. He says he loves me and sex with me, but again, not an important thing. I'm not unattractive(I don't think),I keep myself fit and try to stay attractive for him. He says he doesn't want to work out, that he worked out enough in his 20's and doesn't want to work that hard anymore. Still, I understand his struggle because he has always had a weight issue. Not a massive one, but still he does and I have always supported healthy ways for his HEALTH, but I can not say deep down the weight attracted me. I still intiated,etc.
> 
> Over the years this wore on me and my self-esteem. I am still young (48) and do not feel I want to have a pssionless marriage. The kids are grown,I stayed as they were raised and put my feelings aside.
> 
> We are also quite incompatable personality wise. I am an extrovert, he an introvert. I love life and silliness, him not so much on the silliness. I crave adventure, he is content in front of the tv. I often get the "eye roll" when we are out, as if my loud laugh and "craziness" is embarassing him. He has never hit me, put me down or hurt me in anyway, but I still feel in some ways he does not accept me as me.
> 
> My oldest son is Bipolar and an addict. I wrote a book about it. He never read it. Said he lived it and doesn't like to read. In the midst of the hardest parts when my son left my husband mostly stayed in the garage. I dealt with my feelings with a counselor. My husband though supportive and kind does not deal with emotion at all. If the kids are having an issue, they come to me, particularly anything mentally (ex: anxiety,etc). He just can not or knows not how to deal with it.
> 
> So that is just some of it. We could go on just fine, no big issues, other than some of what I have said. A good, honest,decent guy whom I have no passion for. I am ready to divorce.
> 
> I want to move back South, I hate the cold. I want something different for my life, job wise and i want to experience new things. This doesn't mean I wanna go and find another man, far from it, want to be me alone for once in my life. Yes, some would say mid-life crisis, I say no, you haven't lived my life, you can't judge me for wanting to find what's next for me. You don't know how much it hurts me to feel this way, to know I will hurt my husband and children and how selfish it feels. I have made up my mind. I am waiting til after the holidays and I know it will be hard on all, but I'd like to know if anyone else can relate? BTW, I told my husband 6 months ago I was considering divorce. He was devatstated then. It's actually been a year since the topic came up. He shrugged about counseling (again avoiding anything emotional). I went a few times and decided to stay due to the pain I would cause.
> 
> Fast forward a year later and I feel I am strong enough to say this no longer works for me, that I love him, but I do truly want a different life.Anyone go through this with a good spouse, but not on the same page on so many levels where you get to mid-life and wonder is this all there is? Also, at mid-life realizing you may want a different life? Anyone move away from your children? Mine are now 29 (I haven't seen him in 5 years due to his addictions-his choice), almost 21 and 19.


She has every right to It is what it is

No permission needed

Just be honest ..........all of it

That's the best way for Flagirls H "to get it"

He's going to feel it anyway

Pay the price Flagirl

With the whole truth and don't give him it's not you it's me

Lay it out for him he doesn't and never did it for you.

55


----------



## just got it 55

Ynot said:


> It is only your opinion that that is all that has changed. It may in fact be a primary part of it, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP is not happy. Should she just stick around just because?
> Is that anymore fair to her husband than her leaving? Does her husband's contentment take precedence over her desire to find the happiness she now recognizes is not part of her life?
> As for the brutal honesty some here are promoting I have to ask if you hold yourself to those same standards because I am willing to bet that most marriages would not survive brutal honesty about our shortcomings or those of our SO. Why would brutal honesty be advised for a break up then?


If she had given her H brutal Honesty in the early stages of her marriage They would be in a different place now

Happy together or happy apart

At least she would not have taken so many years from him.

55

ETA: And he would have learned to adjust in a way that suits his currant or future relationship as well as learning to find the right match.

Nobody should stay in a mismatch.

The full truth is the only way we truly learn and grow

Otherwise we live a life of emotional pain

And at 48+ we have little time to fix our ****.

So what is more humane?
Giving him the answer or letting him struggle for years to figure it out ?

Besides all of that maybe he comes to the conclusion that Flagirl reads too many romance novels ?

Maybe he is right maybe he is wrong

I am guessing its part of the equation.

55


----------



## manfromlamancha

Ynot said:


> Perhaps you can enlighten me where I ever advised the OP to be anything but honest. So does she need to be brutally honest? I would say no, she shouldn't be. There is no reason to twist the knife once it has been plunged. Telling him he is not sexually desirable? Sure, she might as well really crush his ego while she is at it - NOT!
> The post you quoted was actually in response to another poster who seems to feel the OP has no right to her own happiness since she made a vow years ago, under different circumstances.


If we were planning to make compromises or sacrifices then brutal honesty would not work. Here, brutal or not, it would be more brutal to leave him wondering or thinking there was something wrong with him. It is HONESTY that is required (with no qualifiers such as brutal, sugar coated, partial etc). He needs to know 

(a) that she loved him for his care, support, parenting, companionship but never fully for his excitement.

(b) that he should look for someone better suited to him and not try and win her back etc. because she is simply not attracted to him and has not been for some time so that he doesn't go off on useless quest to try to change something about himself.

(c) that had this been made clear earlier he might not have stayed in the marriage and to some degree has been used. 

Believe it or not, this will help him recover far better than trying to give him the "we just drifted apart" or "its not you its me" routine. It will also help him protect himself financially and go on to salvage what is left of his life.

Is this really so hard to understand ?


----------



## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> If we were planning to make compromises or sacrifices then brutal honesty would not work. Here, brutal or not, it would be more brutal to leave him wondering or thinking there was something wrong with him. It is HONESTY that is required (with no qualifiers such as brutal, sugar coated, partial etc). He needs to know
> 
> (a) that she loved him for his care, support, parenting, companionship but never fully for his excitement.
> 
> (b) that he should look for someone better suited to him and not try and win her back etc. because she is simply not attracted to him and has not been for some time so that he doesn't go off on useless quest to try to change something about himself.
> 
> (c) that had this been made clear earlier he might not have stayed in the marriage and to some degree has been used.
> 
> Believe it or not, this will help him recover far better than trying to give him the "we just drifted apart" or "its not you its me" routine. It will also help him protect himself financially and go on to salvage what is left of his life.
> 
> Is this really so hard to understand ?


Yes. Actually it is, because the very thing happened to me. My ex left me, with what I felt was insufficient explanation of her actions. Looking back she did try to tell me. But I was unable to accept what she was saying (and which I knew to be true) because I was not in a state that I could make sense of it all. I spent months trying to figure out WTF was wrong with me that that happened to me/us. I doubt that her H would grasp what is being said at the time. Perhaps at some later date when the emotions and pain have subsided, but not at the point of the separation. I feel that a simple calm explanation of incompatibility would suffice. But the idea of brutal, complete, total or whatever else you want to call it honesty is simply rubbing salt in the wound whether intentional or not.


----------



## just got it 55

Ynot said:


> Yes. Actually it is, because the very thing happened to me. My ex left me, with what I felt was insufficient explanation of her actions. Looking back she did try to tell me. But I was unable to accept what she was saying (and which I knew to be true) because I was not in a state that I could make sense of it all. I spent months trying to figure out WTF was wrong with me that that happened to me/us. I doubt that her H would grasp what is being said at the time. Perhaps at some later date when the emotions and pain have subsided, but not at the point of the separation. I feel that a simple calm explanation of incompatibility would suffice. But the idea of brutal, complete, total or whatever else you want to call it honesty is simply rubbing salt in the wound whether intentional or not.


Ynot would you not have progressed faster had you had the "Brutal Truth"

Did you get that or the sugar coated version. In your case you knew things to be true, and you should be proud of yourself to gain the proper perspective on yourself.

BUT..... We don't know Flagirls H side do we ? I am simply advocating for him giving him some benefit of doubt.

By injecting his side of the relationship with zero knowledge it prompts thought from the OP. She hopefully knows what is and what isn't with clarity. 

I believe she is unhappy her reasons are valid for her,as a marriage site my hope is she chooses the right path to happiness.

For me IMHO I want the truth that's me.

We learn more in failure as sometimes we succeed but haven't a clue why.

No doubt he will feel salt in the wound there is no way around it.

55


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## BashfulB

sapientia said:


> I can't seem to think of a single example where a woman dedicated her life to her husband and raising children and was then cast aside for a younger woman...
> 
> You don't think her husband got anything out of this arrangement? If not, then he was a fool and a bad businessman. But I doubt that was the OPs case.
> 
> What is very interesting today is that marriage is very much "at will" for both men and women. Puts the focus on continuous improvement as opposed to signing a contract that implies bondage for life.
> 
> I personally think marriage should be a renewable contract. Every 10 years. It would put many of the divorce vulture lawyers out of business, build up the business of marriage retreats, and cause many lazy spouses to treat their other half better.


I think you either believe in the sanctity, permanency and fidelity of marriage or you don't. 

If the majority of the world no longer believes that traditional marriage is a permanent, lifelong union between man and woman or same sex, then I think we should abolish marriage altogether -- because you are talking about is just reducing it down to nothing more than a contractual partnership, devoid of social, ethical and spiritual mandates. Well hell, if that is all you think it should be, then take away marriage altogether and just let couples start their own corporations, or LLCs or LPs. 

Maybe this fluid idea of marriage is the new consensus here on TAM. I don't know. I would hate to think that is the case.


----------



## Ynot

just got it 55 said:


> Ynot  would you not have progressed faster had you had the "Brutal Truth"
> 
> Did you get that or the sugar coated version. In your case you knew things to be true, and you should be proud of yourself to gain the proper perspective on yourself.
> 
> BUT..... We don't know Flagirls H side do we ? I am simply advocating for him giving him some benefit of doubt.
> 
> By injecting his side of the relationship with zero knowledge it prompts thought from the OP. She hopefully knows what is and what isn't with clarity.
> 
> I believe she is unhappy her reasons are valid for her,as a marriage site my hope is she chooses the right path to happiness.
> 
> For me IMHO I want the truth that's me.
> 
> We learn more in failure as sometimes we succeed but haven't a clue why.
> 
> No doubt he will feel salt in the wound there is no way around it.
> 
> 55


Thinking back on it, I think I did get the brutal truth, but it didn't matter. I was still reeling and I didn't hear what I was being told. So I guess it will be up to the OP to decide. My inability to hear may have in fact propelled me to a greater understanding than if I had just been able to say "oh this or that was why it happened" Rather I was forced to look deep within my soul, to places I had forgotten existed as well as times and places in my marriage. I don't know if I would have done that I had been given a quick and easy here is what happened and why explanation.


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## Riptide

I think Flagirl could best elaborate but what I got from her that sexual attraction was the smaller of the issues she is facing in her marriage. I think we might be focusing too much on that part of it when I think the bigger picture is that she is feeling that the marriage has no emotional fulfillment which only adds to the lack of sexual desire. Having assumed that, I don't think it would benefit FlaGirl or her hubby that she reveal the lack of physical attraction when in reality, if the emotional part of the relationship was present, the physical part of the relationship could be probably still be a relevant part of the relationship. I know that could be a false assumption but just my comment based on my overall perception of FlaGirl's comments.


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## Ynot

BashfulBull said:


> I think you either believe in the sanctity, permanency and fidelity of marriage or you don't.


I think you can either believe in an ideal or you accept reality.


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## manfromlamancha

Ynot said:


> I think you can either believe in an ideal or you accept reality.


How about striving towards an ideal while dealing with reality ? Else just throw in the towel as BashfulBull said and forget about marriage. Seriously, why get married ? Tax advantages ? Country club membership ? What ?

And as for emotional excitement/fulfillment, sexual attraction/desire, competence in the sack, on the dance floor or whatever floats your boat - he needs the truth!


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## manfromlamancha

Ynot said:


> Thinking back on it, I think I did get the brutal truth, but it didn't matter. I was still reeling and I didn't hear what I was being told. So I guess it will be up to the OP to decide. My inability to hear may have in fact propelled me to a greater understanding than if I had just been able to say "oh this or that was why it happened" Rather I was forced to look deep within my soul, to places I had forgotten existed as well as times and places in my marriage. I don't know if I would have done that I had been given a quick and easy here is what happened and why explanation.


Not entirely sure what you are saying here. You either got told the truth or you didn't. If you couldn't understand it then that could be either due to it not being made clear or you having a problem with understanding stuff. In any case, you were given the opportunity to understand the real reason for splitting if you were told the truth and you could deal with it accordingly.

OP's husband simply deserves the same opportunity.

Saying it would be rubbing salt in a wound or the likes, is a *cowardly* way out for the OP to slip off into the night leaving a confused destroyed soul behind with a lesser chance of healing.


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## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> How about striving towards an ideal while dealing with reality ? Else just throw in the towel as BashfulBull said and forget about marriage. Seriously, why get married ? Tax advantages ? Country club membership ? What ?


An attachment to the ideal is what often prevents recovery from taking place. The fact is that nothing is permanent in life. It is great if a marriage lasts a lifetime, but about half of the time that isn't the case. So reality disproves the ideal. As someone who has been burned by accepting the ideal, I have come to realize that the ideal needs tossed aside in favor of reality.


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## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> Not entirely sure what you are saying here. You either got told the truth or you didn't. If you couldn't understand it then that could be either due to it not being made clear or you having a problem with understanding stuff. In any case, you were given the opportunity to understand the real reason for splitting if you were told the truth and you could deal with it accordingly.
> 
> OP's husband simply deserves the same opportunity.
> 
> Saying it would be rubbing salt in a wound or the likes, is a *cowardly* way out for the OP to slip off into the night leaving a confused destroyed soul behind with a lesser chance of healing.


What I am saying is the I couldn't understand the reasoning thru the pain of having the ideal taken from me. In the aftermath I have dealt with it, but it was not something I was capable of at the time. I am not familiar with your story, but I have had to adapt my understanding of marriage to comply with my experiences.


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## manfromlamancha

Ynot said:


> An attachment to the ideal is what often prevents recovery from taking place. The fact is that nothing is permanent in life. It is great if a marriage lasts a lifetime, but about half of the time that isn't the case. So reality disproves the ideal. As someone who has been burned by accepting the ideal, I have come to realize that the ideal needs tossed aside in favor of reality.


So if that is the case, do you toss aside the ideal at the start ? Then my question still stands - why get married ? Why take any vows ? Why do it in a church or any other institution ? Nothing is permanent so why not start out knowing that you are going to split up ?

See - can't explain marriage without an ideal ? Cant encourage bravery and courage without an ideal ? Cannot even support loyalty and faithfulness without an ideal. 

So when you meet a young girl that you like and get on with, tell her up front that the chances are high that you or I or both are going to end up fvcking some one else at some point so lets just get our kicks now and bring up the children to understand that they are not going to have this happiness forever so make the most of it while they can (grab whatever they can get from us).


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## manfromlamancha

As for me - yes I have experienced hurt and infidelity and all that goes with it. But I come at it from the other end of the spectrum - foolish I know. But I hold what you call the ideal to be very important. Hence my moniker.

Nobody could represent this ideal better than the most foolish and yet the most noble of them all - Don Quixote!


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Just tell him you love him but not in love with him


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## tech-novelist

BashfulBull said:


> I think you either believe in the sanctity, permanency and fidelity of marriage or you don't.
> 
> If the majority of the world no longer believes that traditional marriage is a permanent, lifelong union between man and woman or same sex, then I think we should abolish marriage altogether -- because you are talking about is just reducing it down to nothing more than a contractual partnership, devoid of social, ethical and spiritual mandates. Well hell, if that is all you think it should be, then take away marriage altogether and just let couples start their own corporations, or LLCs or LPs.
> 
> Maybe this fluid idea of marriage is the new consensus here on TAM. I don't know. I would hate to think that is the case.


This is a very interesting topic. I guess I should start a new thread about it though to avoid a threadjack.


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## Trickster

manfromlamancha said:


> As for me - yes I have experienced hurt and infidelity and all that goes with it. But I come at it from the other end of the spectrum - foolish I know. But I hold what you call the ideal to be very important. Hence my moniker.
> 
> Nobody could represent this ideal better than the most foolish and yet the most noble of them all - Don Quixote!


Believe people still believe their marriage will last till death do they part. Most believe communication will never b a problem. Most believe they have what it takes to have a lasting marriage, for better or for worse. Most don't believe they will be part of the divorce stats. Most believe they will have to give up something. I think most people like the ideal of marriage, even if their parents are divorced.

I would also believe that as people wait longer to marry, it may be more true. They think it's forever. We all want that fairytale.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Here is the thing.

You want out cause you are bored.
I'm not religious and am not telling you to pray or preaching.

Yes you and your hubby have differences.
Is it enough to leave?
Well, to you it is and that is the only opinion that matters here.

WHEN you do leave, don't tell him he isn't attractive to you. Unless you were one of th e blessed, no one looks the same 22 years later.

Most of why you say you want to leave will be countered with: "But we were married for 22 years!, Only now?!"

So you can try to soften the blow as much as you want but a bullet to the heart is a bullet to the heart.

Only advice would be to check up on him afterwards, help him transition to his new, sudden life if he needs it and never give him the indication that you are getting back together


----------



## just got it 55

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Here is the thing.
> 
> You want out cause you are bored.
> I'm not religious and am not telling you to pray or preaching.
> 
> Yes you and your hubby have differences.
> Is it enough to leave?
> Well, to you it is and that is the only opinion that matters here.
> 
> WHEN you do leave, don't tell him he isn't attractive to you. Unless you were one of th e blessed, no one looks the same 22 years later.
> 
> Most of why you say you want to leave will be countered with: "But we were married for 22 years!, Only now?!"
> 
> So you can try to soften the blow as much as you want but a bullet to the heart is a bullet to the heart.
> 
> Only advice would be to check up on him afterwards, help him transition to his new, sudden life if he needs it and never give him the indication that you are getting back together


When she leaves they won't be besties

I bet they won't even be friends

55


----------



## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> So if that is the case, do you toss aside the ideal at the start ? Then my question still stands - why get married ? Why take any vows ? Why do it in a church or any other institution ? Nothing is permanent so why not start out knowing that you are going to split up ?
> 
> See - can't explain marriage without an ideal ? Cant encourage bravery and courage without an ideal ? Cannot even support loyalty and faithfulness without an ideal.
> 
> So when you meet a young girl that you like and get on with, tell her up front that the chances are high that you or I or both are going to end up fvcking some one else at some point so lets just get our kicks now and bring up the children to understand that they are not going to have this happiness forever so make the most of it while they can (grab whatever they can get from us).[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> People get married because they think they can achieve the ideal, But simply imagining it doesn't make it so. More often than not they realize at some point that they have little in common once the real reason for the marriage (raising children in a stable home) is no longer a unifying factor.
> People don't get married to achieve the ideal, they get married hoping that maybe they will make it. Some do and some don't.
> As for me, I doubt I will ever marry again as I see no purpose in it. I raised my kids, I have no interest in raising anyone else's or having more of my own.
> Also, not all marriage fail because one or the other wants to fvck someone else. Sometimes people just realize that they aren't happy. It is a travesty to attempt to shame them into staying together because of an ideal that you cling to against reality.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Ynot said:


> manfromlamancha said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if that is the case, do you toss aside the ideal at the start ? Then my question still stands - why get married ? Why take any vows ? Why do it in a church or any other institution ? Nothing is permanent so why not start out knowing that you are going to split up ?
> 
> See - can't explain marriage without an ideal ? Cant encourage bravery and courage without an ideal ? Cannot even support loyalty and faithfulness without an ideal.
> 
> So when you meet a young girl that you like and get on with, tell her up front that the chances are high that you or I or both are going to end up fvcking some one else at some point so lets just get our kicks now and bring up the children to understand that they are not going to have this happiness forever so make the most of it while they can (grab whatever they can get from us).[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> People get married because they think they can achieve the ideal, But simply imagining it doesn't make it so. More often than not they realize at some point that they have little in common once the real reason for the marriage (raising children in a stable home) is no longer a unifying factor.
> People don't get married to achieve the ideal, they get married hoping that maybe they will make it. Some do and some don't.
> As for me, I doubt I will ever marry again as I see no purpose in it. I raised my kids, I have no interest in raising anyone else's or having more of my own.
> Also, not all marriage fail because one or the other wants to fvck someone else. Sometimes people just realize that they aren't happy. It is a travesty to attempt to shame them into staying together because of an ideal that you cling to against reality.
> 
> 
> 
> So why get married ? Why not have kids and see how far you get ? Makes it easier to bow out when you find its not working out like you planned or hoped.
Click to expand...


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## Trickster

I find it interesting that it's harder to get approved for a home loan than it is to get married.


----------



## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> Ynot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So why get married ? Why not have kids and see how far you get ? Makes it easier to bow out when you find its not working out like you planned or hoped.
> 
> 
> 
> More and more people are doing just that these days.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dude007

I personally think the number of years together is irrelevant and I'll tell you why. In managerial accounting we use the principle "sunk costs are irrelevant to future decisions" it's also a common investment montra. "If you wouldnt buy that stock today knowing what you know then sell it, even if it's locking in a big loss." You wouldn't buy it so don't own it. These principles apply here. It's not clinging to your feelings of 20 plus years ago but what to do now knowing what you know.(growth) dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha

But (and returning back to this thread) unfortunately the OP did not. And in your scenario, even if they weren't married it would have been useful and moral to tell him as soon as she realised that she would be leaving sooner or later. And this didn't happen, and now there are many here suggesting lying to him or withholding the truth to sugar coat it for him when in actual fact it is to make it easier for her.


----------



## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> But (and returning back to this thread) unfortunately the OP did not. And in your scenario, even if they weren't married it would have been useful and moral to tell him as soon as she realised that she would be leaving sooner or later. And this didn't happen, and now there are many here suggesting lying to him or withholding the truth to sugar coat it for him when in actual fact it is to make it easier for her.


How the heck do you know what or what not the OP was thinking 20 years ago? The level of sexual attraction may have been just fine given all the other variables in play at that time. Or maybe the OPs sexual desires have developed over that time, or maybe her husbands sexual desires have changed. Maybe both. The fact is that you don't know and you are advising the OP to tell her H something that in itself may or may not have been true or realized at the time, all based on her present state of mind.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Florida_rosbif said:


> This and thrice this! My WS tells me that she's been expressing her dissatisfaction for 10 years. I have always put her occasional bad days with tears down to her hormonal cycle, and never thought that it would come to a head.
> 
> So communicate, make it loud and clear, put down ultimatums, but don't do things in a way that will allow him to say "Well this is a surprise!".


When your H doesn't want to deal with his own suppressed emotions and puts up a wall to life, it doesn't do any good. I spoke my truth loud and clear for years, how I was unhappy with our marriage. Years of this. I'm finally leaving and he still will look me in the eye and say, "I just don't get it!" Nope, he doesn't. We have spent years as roommates. We have zero long term plans. We raise our kids and clean the house and our personal conversations are as intimate as strangers, probably less so. More like coworkers who just share niceties and logistical talk. And yet he doesn't get it, why it's not enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

SurpriseMyself said:


> When your H doesn't want to deal with his own suppressed emotions and puts up a wall to life, it doesn't do any good. I spoke my truth loud and clear for years, how I was unhappy with our marriage. Years of this. I'm finally leaving and he still will look me in the eye and say, "I just don't get it!" Nope, he doesn't. We have spent years as roommates. We have zero long term plans. We raise our kids and clean the house and our personal conversations are as intimate as strangers, probably less so. More like coworkers who just share niceties and logistical talk. And yet he doesn't get it, why it's not enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, No, NO! You took a vow, just deal with it!


----------



## manfromlamancha

Ynot said:


> How the heck do you know what or what not the OP was thinking 20 years ago? The level of sexual attraction may have been just fine given all the other variables in play at that time. Or maybe the OPs sexual desires have developed over that time, or maybe her husbands sexual desires have changed. Maybe both. The fact is that you don't know and you are advising the OP to tell her H something that in itself may or may not have been true or realized at the time, all based on her present state of mind.


How the heck do you think I know ? By reading the words of the OP of course. How else ? Lets see ...



FlaGirl said:


> This may be winded, I will try to keep it as to the point as I can. I prefer to have comments from those who have been through this or are going through this. I do not need permission, nor do I want "godly" people telling me I am a sinner or to just pray. Thank You, I pray enough!Those who can relate, I would appreciate your story.
> 
> I have been married 22 years. I was previously in a relationship for 7 (had a son) that was abusive. Met and married a good,kind,wonderful man. We went through lot's of stuff as anyone would in a long-term marriage. I fell in love with so many things about my husband and do still love him, so this is VERY hard for me,but I am contemplating divorce. *I never felt that "passion" for him, but we made it work*, considering he also has what I would consider a low sex drive.
> 
> …..
> 
> 
> He says he doesn't want to work out, that he worked out enough in his 20's and doesn't want to work that hard anymore. Still, I understand his struggle because he has always had a weight issue. Not a massive one, but still he does and I have always supported healthy ways for his HEALTH, *but I can not say deep down the weight attracted me. I still intiated,etc.
> *
> 
> *Over the years this wore on me and my self-esteem. I am still young (48) and do not feel I want to have a pssionless marriage. The kids are grown,I stayed as they were raised and put my feelings aside.*
> 
> *We are also quite incompatable personality wise. I am an extrovert, he an introvert. I love life and silliness, him not so much on the silliness.* I crave adventure, he is content in front of the tv. I often get the "eye roll" when we are out, as if my loud laugh and "craziness" is embarassing him. He has never hit me, put me down or hurt me in anyway, but I still feel in some ways he does not accept me as me.
> 
> …….
> 
> So that is just some of it. We could go on just fine, no big issues, other than some of what I have said.* A good, honest,decent guy whom I have no passion for. I am ready to divorce.*
> 
> I want to move back South, I hate the cold. I want something different for my life, job wise and i want to experience new things. This doesn't mean I wanna go and find another man, far from it, want to be me alone for once in my life. Yes, some would say mid-life crisis, I say no, you haven't lived my life, you can't judge me for wanting to find what's next for me. You don't know how much it hurts me to feel this way, *to know I will hurt my husband and children and how selfish it feels. I have made up my mind.* I am waiting til after the holidays and I know it will be hard on all, but I'd like to know if anyone else can relate? BTW, *I told my husband 6 months ago I was considering divorce. He was devatstated then.* It's actually been a year since the topic came up. He shrugged about counseling (again avoiding anything emotional). I went a few times and decided to stay due to the pain I would cause.
> 
> Fast forward a year later and I feel I am strong enough to say this no longer works for me, that I love him, but I do truly want a different life.Anyone go through this with a good spouse, but not on the same page on so many levels where you get to mid-life and wonder is this all there is? Also, at mid-life realizing you may want a different life? Anyone move away from your children? Mine are now 29 (I haven't seen him in 5 years due to his addictions-his choice), almost 21 and 19.





FlaGirl said:


> I am a medical assistant, do not make a lot of money but I can take care of myself. I have many interests and I am not afraid to be alone (so much as the loneliness). Believe me, I've been through the ringer in my life. Traveled 2,000 on a bus with my 2 year old alone.* Left an abusive relationship prior to my husband, and in many ways I see now that I did not heal and take my time. I found this wonderful human being and latched on tight.* I did not use him in any way,I fell in love, but I was also young. I know ME now and *I also know we are not a great match even loving one another. I've spent half of my life with my husband. I was safe, felt cared for and loved,but deep down I always felt like we'd been better off as friends, a brother or father figure. *Does that make sense. *Of course we were sexual, had 2 children, but with all honesty, those things you could never admit in real life, there was no real sexual attraction.* I am not living in this rose-colored glass world where I think the grass is greener,etc, in fact the thought of dating terrifies me,as I was never good at it,even younger. I tended to get into long-term relationships because I want that emotional attachment. I enjoy outdoor activities, gatherings with family and friends, exercise, music.





FlaGirl said:


> Ynot,
> You brought a different perspective to this for me and I so thank you for that! I am sorry for your pain and what you went through and *you're right, my husband deserves to know the truth.* I have been trying to keep all the waters calm, something I have done my whole life,looking back now. Hate conflict and so that whole trying to be the"perfect wife" wasn't really the right thing to do. I think it kept my husband and I from truly connecting in a more intimate way. We never faught, that's not normal. I can honestly say that I can count maybe 5 times in 23 years that we ever really "admitted" to a disagreement. I think so much was we get along as friends, but also he is unemotional and I am very emotional. I did not want to make waves because I was afraid of what would come of it (conflict), true feelings, all of past,etc.
> 
> My husband grew up Catholic and with a family that did not discuss feelings, etc. When I met him, his parents were already sleeping in separate bedrooms. While I grew up with a very open discussion (if not too much) about sexuality. My idea of marriage was even if there was chaos, the attraction/passion was there for one another. He grew up seeing a very disfunctional marriage where two stayed together no matter what.
> 
> I think my husband always wanted a wife and children. I read someone else's statement here, about that, regarding her husband, and it was put in a way such as this: *He wanted a wife and kids, it's all he ever wanted. He got that*, and it made him happy and he was content to just have that bond, without any real work on the emotional side of what it entails to be close. The picture all looked so good. *In retrospect, I wanted the same thing*. I wanted a family, a funtional stable family.
> 
> Our 2 children that we had together ,grew up to be great kids and I'm so grateful for that, considering my oldest did not. I am still not at a good place losing my son. He is alive, but not living. He is homeless, in another state and I have not seen him for 5 years. None of us talk about him. I dealt with having to make him leave (my life or his at that point) on my own and through counseling. My husband does not bring him up at all, though he raised him from the time he was 6 years old. That is so painful for me. If I say, "I miss him, I wish this or that", my husband just shrugs. My son caused a lot of turmoil in our home and has refused to take his meds or get stable and sober, so this is why there is no longer a relationship, but as a mother, I am devastated inside. My husband has said if he were ok he would be in our lives, and that is true but I felt so lost during the thick of it. I am to blame as well, because that whole thing about me not wanting to cause waves, I took it all on and left my husband out. No wonder he doesn't want any part. Hmmmm, hindsight.
> 
> Back to our relationship, I see a pattern here just getting it all out. My husband is unemotional, I ,at times,didn't allow him in, so we are both to blame.
> 
> But the honesty thing about why I want a divorce. There are so many reasons. *I do not want to say to my husband that I never had a strong attraction to him and sexually I have no compatability with him. H*e knows the second part of course, as he is a partner in it as well. I dont want to dump all the stuff I do not like about our marriage or about HIM. How is one to go about this? How do I say these things to my husband "Ynot" ?
> 
> The other part of this split is my yearning to grow as a person on my own. I have been a mother since I was 19 and prior to that took care of many family members with their issues, including my own Mother and Sister. I am the peace keeper and "go to" person. I am at a point now where no one really needs me. Of course my children need me and I want to be there for them and always will be, but for the first time in my life, I am at a point where if I do not take an opportunity to go find me, I never will.
> 
> I could stay in my marriage and things would be safe, fine, stable, and I could see myself regretting never haven gotten to truly know me, on my own. I can say these things to my husband about why I want to divorce, but I think he also needs to know the things that I was unhappy about with him. In turn he can tell me the things he is unhappy about. I know he isn't all that happy either, but he could maintain this for many more years to come, more so than I. I am not perfect and I know most of what bugs him about me,but he has a hard time getting anything out at all if it involves emotions. He is a HUGE avoider! I do not want to try to change my husband, nor do I want to try. This is different from wanting to help one another grow and change in ways that could keep our marriage going. I also would like to be just me, and don't feel I can truly do that with him.
> 
> I'm sure he has many things about me he has been unhappy about as well and maybe if we are honest, we could move forward with less thoughts of,"What the hell happened" and try not to repeat the pattern in any next relationship.
> 
> *SO... would one tell a spouse that the attraction is not there? I will not tell him it never was there. Like I said before in previous posts, I fell in love with him on many levels, the physical was not one of them.* Though I can hear him say,"How long have you felt this way?" UGH!!! Thank you for letting me vent!



She knew that she didn't feel any passion with him and that they were incompatible fairly early on - still she "did her time" although, seriously this wasn't doing him any favours. You even encouraged her to tell him the truth at one point (which is why I am supremely confused at your going backward and forward on this).


I did not think we are debating what she felt for him and why she "latched on to him" at the start (as she put it). All that I am discussing is whether she should be really honest with him about it so that he can cope better.


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## Trickster

Dude007 said:


> I personally think the number of years together is irrelevant and I'll tell you why. In managerial accounting we use the principle "sunk costs are irrelevant to future decisions" it's also a common investment montra. "If you wouldnt buy that stock today knowing what you know then sell it, even if it's locking in a big loss." You wouldn't buy it so don't own it. These principles apply here. It's not clinging to your feelings of 20 plus years ago but what to do now knowing what you know.(growth) dude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



About 2 months ago, I transferred my daughters 529 to a money market. I know nothing about the market except that it's fake. My investment more than doubled in 11 years. Probably not the best, but I am happy with the results.

If we look at marriage as an investment, we all want a return on that investment. The return is not always financial. Some marriage become liquid before a total crash. Like investing, we hang on to it as long as possible. Timing is everything. When the stock in our marriage slowly drops each day, each week, each month, we still hope the stock could rebound, but all we see is red across the board. I still hope it will rebound for me. It's not likely.

FlaGirl want to sell her portion of the marriage stock. She isn't getting a return on her investment.


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## Dude007

Hope is not an investing strategy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ynot

manfromlamancha said:


> She knew that she didn't feel any passion with him and that they were incompatible fairly early on - still she "did her time" although, seriously this wasn't doing him any favours. You even encouraged her to tell him the truth at one point (which is why I am supremely confused at your going backward and forward on this).
> 
> 
> I did not think we are debating what she felt for him and why she "latched on to him" at the start (as she put it). All that I am discussing is whether she should be really honest with him about it so that he can cope better.


I haven't gone back and forth on anything. What I disagree with you about is the idea that because she made some vow 10 years ago that she should just suck it up and live out her life in misery since marriage is supposed to be forever. And the other thing I disagree with you is that she should tell him something now that she may not have realized then as the "truth". I would still urge her to tell him the truth, but not go into the nitty gritty down and dirty details that you keep suggesting.


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## sapientia

manfromlamancha said:


> I agree that her husband could well be a fool and a bad businessman. Maybe he should have imposed better penalty clauses on the marriage. In fact they should have had a 6 sigma approach to continuously improve the marriage or else bring in external contractors to improve it for them. Gotta say, this discussion is getting better by the minute.
> 
> 
> And sure, rewrite the rules of marriage why don't we. Why stick at just renewing every 10 years. Why not have it renewed every 3 years and in fact source marital services as a service (from the cloud no less). And impose strict penalty clauses for those that break the marital contract first. Yep, getting priceless by the minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand these are wise words. Instead of sky diving, maybe tell him that you were seeking thrills and excitement elsewhere as opposed to his boring and non-jealous ways, then tell him about your penchant for the 50 Shades Of Grey variety of excitement, give him a leather strap and see what happens when you are tied up - more exciting than sky diving maybe ?
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess that the better thing to do would be to
> 
> 
> 
> Give him the ILYBNILWY spiel.
> 
> 
> Let him go on wondering what it is he did wrong and what he could have done better.
> 
> 
> Work with him on splitting the 401K as best you can (while his confusion continues and he has no idea he needs to be protecting his interests too).
> 
> 
> Let him then watch you from afar as you get your excitement in Florida in Halloween party nights, music concerts, maybe even spring break with much more virile and exciting men and then draw his own conclusions.
> 
> 
> Yep - priceless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, this sounds awful. Why would anyone want to do this ? As for the question, why do you not see yourself in it - I think you knew the answer to this almost at the start of your marriage.
> 
> As I said at the start, you should not be in a marriage that you don't want to be in - the only comment is be honest with him and give him a fighting chance of recovering from this by telling him the whole truth and not holding back anything or sugar coating anything or lying. Sure he got something out of the marriage too (maybe not what he was expecting). Thank him for his decency - tell him he was not as exciting as you had hoped and apologise for not leaving earlier when he may have had a better chance of finding someone more compatible.


^Like I said, FlaGirl, this is an example of a poster who is clearly working through his issues. TAM is full of them, unfortunately.

Keep sifting for the gold through the crud, FG. You'll do just fine. Feel free to PM me if you wish.

- Sapi


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## sapientia

@manfromlamancha 

Kindly direct your comments to FlaGirl. I'm not interested in responding to your spew. If you attack another of my posts I will simply report you to a mod.

I'm posting to support the OP. She seems to be finding my posts helpful. I didn't ask for your opinion and I'm not interested in it. Put me on ignore, or do whatever you must to control yourself. I would like to keep the thread focussed on her.

Thank you.


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## sapientia

technovelist said:


> This is a very interesting topic. I guess I should start a new thread about it though to avoid a threadjack.


Great idea. Because then I could post my thoughts about Heinline's line marriages and really watch these uber-conservatives really blow a brain gasket. >


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## Mr.Fisty

Dude007 said:


> Hope is not an investing strategy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yep, surprisingly enough, that is the emotion that abused victims have about their marriage. Their abusers show glimpses of decency and they cling on, but it is a controlling method to hook back in their victim.

The bonding hormone for whatever reason causes minimization of pain and bypass painful memories to narrow the focus on the good they see. All the abuse and hurt gets placed more into the background. When a victim attaches again to their abuser, it causes hysterical bonding . Same for the abuser as well, and again they are motivated to be on their best behavior but once the high wheres off, it is back to business as usual.

And this is how hope keeps one imprison in their circumstance.


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## Mr.Fisty

Ynot said:


> I haven't gone back and forth on anything. What I disagree with you about is the idea that because she made some vow 10 years ago that she should just suck it up and live out her life in misery since marriage is supposed to be forever. And the other thing I disagree with you is that she should tell him something now that she may not have realized then as the "truth". I would still urge her to tell him the truth, but not go into the nitty gritty down and dirty details that you keep suggesting.



True, and it is only from her perspective. For another woman, perhaps she will love his love-making style or what he brings into a relationship.

As previously, my uncle divorce his wife and they are both happy. What a concept that he gets to enjoy his lifestyle and she found somebody else and moved on. Together, they would have been miserable but hey, the vow is what matters.

Here is the thing about marriage. Monogamy was teh invention of the Romans long before the advent of Christianity. They just adopted the concept and some pope made it Christian law due to his influence by his own culture of his upbringing. There were other sects of Christianity that were polygamists just like their Jewish counterparts.

Just like all Christian did not believe Jesus was divine. There are multiple versions of Jesus and including inside the bible. Like no one really knows that the Gospel of John was not to be originally included in the bible but the people like that gospel and the Church felt pressure to canonize the Gospel of John into the bible. If anyone read the gospels side by side, John reads like a fantasy novel.


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## Mr.Fisty

LOLs. Marriage has been an ever revolving institution since its inception. Should we go back to time where wives did not have the right to divorce, or how about how the Jews were polygamists, or how about we treat women like chattel, or when husbands were not considered cheaters if they had sex with prostitutes.

People really need to consider the crap they spew out before making declarations.

Soon same sex marriage will be the norm in the not to far distant future. My generation is about 70 to 80 percent okay with the concept. WE are not old enough to be in office yet, but once we do, the odds of the laws being change is great since an overwhelming majority of us find it an injustice.

Back to the OP, it is not even your job to heal him. Once the relationship ends, obligations ends as well. In fact, the odds of him accepting your help is slim since you will be the emotional trigger to his hurt and pain. He too, beleive in the fairy tale of marriage most likely. He believes that he owns your commitment probably. I live with the idea that a relationship is a choice one freely enters and leaves so I try not taking it for granted. There are assumptions about marriage and the mindset that it brings into the equation.


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## Spotthedeaddog

FlaGirl, your description reads 100% like a Mid-Life Crisis... sure it's "awakening" for you, but it's a crisis for the person who has come to rely and trust you for many years to hold up your half of the relationship.

That you are so keen to concentrate on yourself... well ok, it's a hormone thing, so I don't think you can really do too much about it. And reminding you that your partner has been there for you for many years and cared about you, and made choice to honor you probably no longer means anything to you at this point. and that's the problem, that's why it's a crisis for your poor husband, he really can't do anything because you simply don't want him there - he can't fix the relationship if you're determined to get out and/or to make your life all about you.

If you still wanted a relationship, then there are things that can be done, that involve the two of you working together - interests that are separate but linked. A friend of mine, she runs a shop and secondhand business; sells pagan books and knickknacks and recycled whiteware...he's an electrician and often trade-in's whiteware or gets hand-me-downs when people upgrade their houses/kitchen/laundry. The difference in areas lets them do their own things, but the connection gives them a reason to come together; and she's encouraging him with his other hobbies (unlike in early marriage where the wife usually rants and hates on a guy for spending time on his hobbies instead of her/relationship .... often so much that many men lose their hobbies/interests until they hit their own MLC )
If he was to remain and interested friend - what are your relationship needs, what are his relationship ambitions; can you work together to make it work, or help set each other up to leave/get distance?

After all sex wasn't important enough to leave him in all the years you've been together, it can hardly be the defining matter now.....

(parting comment: One thing about the MLC... it's not your fault. not his either. In just changes in hormones and a tipping point of life experiences/environment. As such, treat it and each other decently, he will be hurt and frightened, and he's used to you being there for emotional support - his coping system, you will be damaging it. Have counsellors or a friend lined up to give him support. And it's not your fault, but how you handle it, is. So for those of us who are on the other end ofyour life awakening, please be prepared and gentle.


----------



## Ynot

spotthedeaddog said:


> FlaGirl, your description reads 100% like a Mid-Life Crisis... sure it's "awakening" for you, but it's a crisis for the person who has come to rely and trust you for many years to hold up your half of the relationship.


So this begs the question - when is an event a crisis? Absent the marriage, would the OP's desire for a change in her life constitute a crisis? People wake up everyday and change their minds about the direction their life was moving, are these crises? 
(OP, I hope that you are not offended by the thread jack, but I think this is another aspect of this scenario that needs explored)


----------



## FlaGirl

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> Here is the thing.
> 
> You want out cause you are bored.
> I'm not religious and am not telling you to pray or preaching.
> 
> Yes you and your hubby have differences.
> Is it enough to leave?
> Well, to you it is and that is the only opinion that matters here.
> 
> WHEN you do leave, don't tell him he isn't attractive to you. Unless you were one of th e blessed, no one looks the same 22 years later.
> 
> Most of why you say you want to leave will be countered with: "But we were married for 22 years!, Only now?!"
> 
> So you can try to soften the blow as much as you want but a bullet to the heart is a bullet to the heart.
> 
> Only advice would be to check up on him afterwards, help him transition to his new, sudden life if he needs it and never give him the indication that you are getting back together


Here's the thing back...I do not want out just because I'm bored. If that were the case I would have left the first time I got bored. Of course I will check up on him and in time hope to become friends again. It does happen with some divorced couples and hoping it will happen for us too. Of course there is a great deal of pain involved for BOTH of us. I do not take this lightly. I will not say I was not attracted to him. I really put myself out there even saying it here and so many got hung up on that factor sexual or otherwise when I clearly stated I fell in love with him as a whole person and many characteristics. But when you have raised your family and it's just the two of you, you have a better picture of how compatible you are and that includes sexually and otherwise. We should be chasing eachother around the house and enjoying many of the same (not all) things, but we are not, because of the chemistry and compatibilty that is lacking and has become forefront now that the kids are raised.
Neither neglected our relationship and soley focused on our children, but of course the "family" unti becomes the main focus.
I will certainly do all I can to help him transition into his new life.


----------



## FlaGirl

spotthedeaddog said:


> FlaGirl, your description reads 100% like a Mid-Life Crisis... sure it's "awakening" for you, but it's a crisis for the person who has come to rely and trust you for many years to hold up your half of the relationship.
> 
> That you are so keen to concentrate on yourself... well ok, it's a hormone thing, so I don't think you can really do too much about it. And reminding you that your partner has been there for you for many years and cared about you, and made choice to honor you probably no longer means anything to you at this point. and that's the problem, that's why it's a crisis for your poor husband, he really can't do anything because you simply don't want him there - he can't fix the relationship if you're determined to get out and/or to make your life all about you.
> 
> If you still wanted a relationship, then there are things that can be done, that involve the two of you working together - interests that are separate but linked. A friend of mine, she runs a shop and secondhand business; sells pagan books and knickknacks and recycled whiteware...he's an electrician and often trade-in's whiteware or gets hand-me-downs when people upgrade their houses/kitchen/laundry. The difference in areas lets them do their own things, but the connection gives them a reason to come together; and she's encouraging him with his other hobbies (unlike in early marriage where the wife usually rants and hates on a guy for spending time on his hobbies instead of her/relationship .... often so much that many men lose their hobbies/interests until they hit their own MLC )
> If he was to remain and interested friend - what are your relationship needs, what are his relationship ambitions; can you work together to make it work, or help set each other up to leave/get distance?
> 
> After all sex wasn't important enough to leave him in all the years you've been together, it can hardly be the defining matter now.....
> 
> (parting comment: One thing about the MLC... it's not your fault. not his either. In just changes in hormones and a tipping point of life experiences/environment. As such, treat it and each other decently, he will be hurt and frightened, and he's used to you being there for emotional support - his coping system, you will be damaging it. Have counsellors or a friend lined up to give him support. And it's not your fault, but how you handle it, is. So for those of us who are on the other end ofyour life awakening, please be prepared and gentle.


Sex is not the defining factor to leave, nor is the desire to only focus on myself.
My marriage has been lacking a true intimacy and I can say that it was not for my not trying. I am a very emotional person, my husband is very unemotional. I can not change me any more than he can change him. I would not expect that either, not anymore. I've had to pry any emotional stuff out of him over the years, (ex: Talk to me, what's going on? Are you o.k.? Work? Depressed?) He shrugs, has no clue, closes up. His father died, no emotion, his mother died, I told him to go (before she passed) out of state, he chose not to. I told him to please call his brother, he didn't feel it necesarry but eventually did. They are not a close family but there is love. I felt he would regret it but he does not "deal" with emotion.
He loves me, he tells me, he told me when I broached this subject a year ago this:"If you want someone to love and care for you, that is me.If you want excitement,that is not me" Now in some ways people would say,"Great,what's wrong with that?' I say it isn't about excitement but I thought it funny my husband approached it that way because to him it's black and white, that it's stability or fun. What?
I have tried to include him in my interests, ex: Social gatherings. He will do it, but leading up to the event, he makes it clear it isn't something he needs(little innuedos). He'd rather sit in his chair and watch t.v. That's fine, good,great, we do that every night. I am social, I like people around.
I say, "Let's workout, stay healthy and get some energy" He says, "I worked out in my 20's,I don't want to work that hard anymore." He will go to raquettball now and again and we will walk the dog, but that's about all he is up for. He has always struggled with his weight and baring any feelings I have about "appearance" I worry about his health, so I have tried to be supportive to keep him healthy. I am no saint and of course I have changed over the 20 years. I have gained 20lbs since we married,which isn't a whole lot, but for me,I'm small, so it feels like a lot. Still, I try to stay active and fit for him as much as I can, nevermind the friggin menopausal hold this weight has on me.

We talked frankly one day about desire and his "lack of". He said he doesn't feel good about himself a lot of the time (physically) yet he is unwilling to make the changes and said,"I have to admit,I am used to you being "svelte" and yeh, you have gained some weight and so it's different for me,but I love you." I almost died. haha! 

Well, o.k. there's some honesty. But those who say don't ever tell him there was no attraction... hmmm... still, I will not tell him that. So those who look at me as some kind of scarlett who is out to break a good man's heart, think twice please. You don't know me, you don't know how hard I have worked in this marriage and what I have also given to it. There comes a time in life when you decide, "Is this enough?" Emotionally, physically?

He has always stayed up later at night than me. I have always said,"If you want any nookie, you have to come to bed sooner, I am tired." 9 times out of 10, he stays downstairs. That is hurtful, multiply that by 20 + years. Not that my lead in is great but it's our "password" and I rarely follow it with,"I'm tired" of course. haha.

His idea of initiating sex is,"You want me to close the door?"
Hey, that's fine now and again, but every time? Just show me, ugh!
He also may have what is called that "Madonna syndrome" where after I had his children he kinda looke at me differently, as if he couldn't be as sexual because I am a mother.

He rarely wanted to make love when I was pregnant, "It weirded him out". O.K. here's some honesty, maybe he found me FAT and unattractive, do you think he shoulda have been "honest" about the lack of attraction to me then? Same principal for me not wanting to hurt him about my feelings now! 

There is a chemistry missing here and not just sexual, do you see what I am saying? We get along, good "friends" but I feel in a marriage that's what's separates "Just friends" from being married...a deeper connection and attraction. What is wrong with coming to a point where you realize it isn't there for you? Of course a great deal of pain is involved. I know relationships change and evolve into something else,that the spark fades and it takes work, I'm no stupid about this, I just know if it were there I would not be having this discussion. 

BTW, I'm tired of those judging me saying he was my provider and took care of everything. I have worked a fulltime job our entire marriage, and some pretty ****ty jobs so we could manage as a family. I do all of the housework, take care of the cars (oil changes,etc) on my days off. Take care of all the pets (except he cleans up the dog poop). I also used to manage all of the bills, but we decided to come together on that. I also take on any "emotional" stuff, ex: When the kids are having some kind of anxiety or sad , they come to me, they know Dad won't understand. There was a time our older son had been having pannic attacks at college. Afetr several evening calls, I told my husband he had to take it on this time, that I was at my "emotional" breaking point. He said," I don't know what to say to him." End of discussion, I took the call. 
So, I have taken on my SHARE and then some in my marriage. I will never bad-mouth my husband and hope to help him cope in the best way I possibly can, but it does take 2 in a relationship.


----------



## tech-novelist

sapientia said:


> Great idea. Because then I could post my thoughts about Heinline's line marriages and really watch these uber-conservatives really blow a brain gasket. >


Very interesting topic that I'll start another thread on, to avoid further threadjacking.


----------



## FlaGirl

SurpriseMyself said:


> When your H doesn't want to deal with his own suppressed emotions and puts up a wall to life, it doesn't do any good. I spoke my truth loud and clear for years, how I was unhappy with our marriage. Years of this. I'm finally leaving and he still will look me in the eye and say, "I just don't get it!" Nope, he doesn't. We have spent years as roommates. We have zero long term plans. We raise our kids and clean the house and our personal conversations are as intimate as strangers, probably less so. More like coworkers who just share niceties and logistical talk. And yet he doesn't get it, why it's not enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, exactly. We can't reinvent the wheel or how they were raised either because many men are not in tune to what a real conection in a marriage involves. "Hey, I don't beat you,cheat, I'm respectful. I go to work every day, what more do you want?"


----------



## FlaGirl

Ynot said:


> No, No, NO! You took a vow, just deal with it!


Hell no, my vows didn't involve continue to accept you will be roommates with "occasional benefits" and be happy just for that! lol


----------



## FlaGirl

manfromlamancha said:


> How the heck do you think I know ? By reading the words of the OP of course. How else ? Lets see ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She knew that she didn't feel any passion with him and that they were incompatible fairly early on - still she "did her time" although, seriously this wasn't doing him any favours. You even encouraged her to tell him the truth at one point (which is why I am supremely confused at your going backward and forward on this).
> 
> 
> I did not think we are debating what she felt for him and why she "latched on to him" at the start (as she put it). All that I am discussing is whether she should be really honest with him about it so that he can cope better.


Latched on to him, please you are very wrong sir! We fell in love and to assume my husband did not get anything out of our marriage is ridiculious. I do come back to the "attraction" because it's lacking due to emotional and sexual chemistry, probably on both parts. I did not KNOW I would feel this way 20 years later I just knew that I loved him, but there were things I put aside because there were so many other things that made me love him. He probably feels the same way. This wasn't some kind of mail order bride business and I didn't go into it thinking,"What can he give me", quite insulting, thank you very much.
What separates frineds from lovers is attraction and yes SEX. It becomes more apparent that you have that for one another after the kids leave, or you do not. It takes work even when you have it, but it takes two.


----------



## FlaGirl

Ynot said:


> I haven't gone back and forth on anything. What I disagree with you about is the idea that because she made some vow 10 years ago that she should just suck it up and live out her life in misery since marriage is supposed to be forever. And the other thing I disagree with you is that she should tell him something now that she may not have realized then as the "truth". I would still urge her to tell him the truth, but not go into the nitty gritty down and dirty details that you keep suggesting.


Thank you and exactly. Total honesty is not always a good idea. He and I know what we have had and have. I would not want to come out and say very hurtful things that have no meaning on what is happening now.


----------



## Dude007

FlaGirl said:


> Hell no, my vows didn't involve continue to accept you will be roommates with "occasional benefits" and be happy just for that! lol


I think this is a very common sitch and merges this thread with the business model thread. Some of us married our partner because they were "safe" and overall a good person. There was probably not a lot of romantic interest but at that stage of our life, building assets/careers, having kids, settling in to the bs that is the american dream, it just made sense. Now, kids are getting older, we anticipate them being grown, and the light at the end of tunnel appears. So what worked 24-44 is now coming to an endgame. Do we rock star it the rest of our days and never marry again? Maybe, but the old is turning into the new via the grieving process and it will NOT be stopped. DUDE


----------



## FlaGirl

sapientia said:


> ^Like I said, FlaGirl, this is an example of a poster who is clearly working through his issues. TAM is full of them, unfortunately.
> 
> Keep sifting for the gold through the crud, FG. You'll do just fine. Feel free to PM me if you wish.
> 
> - Sapi


Thank you Sapi! Much appreciated


----------



## FlaGirl

Mr.Fisty said:


> Yep, surprisingly enough, that is the emotion that abused victims have about their marriage. Their abusers show glimpses of decency and they cling on, but it is a controlling method to hook back in their victim.
> 
> The bonding hormone for whatever reason causes minimization of pain and bypass painful memories to narrow the focus on the good they see. All the abuse and hurt gets placed more into the background. When a victim attaches again to their abuser, it causes hysterical bonding . Same for the abuser as well, and again they are motivated to be on their best behavior but once the high wheres off, it is back to business as usual.
> 
> And this is how hope keeps one imprison in their circumstance.


Been there, done that prior to my marriage


----------



## FlaGirl

Dude007 said:


> I think this is a very common sitch and merges this thread with the business model thread. Some of us married our partner because they were "safe" and overall a good person. There was probably not a lot of romantic interest but at that stage of our life, building assets/careers, having kids, settling in to the bs that is the american dream, it just made sense. Now, kids are getting older, we anticipate them being grown, and the light at the end of tunnel appears. So what worked 24-44 is now coming to an endgame. Do we rock star it the rest of our days and never marry again? Maybe, but the old is turning into the new via the grieving process and it will NOT be stopped. DUDE


I think it's a good and valid point that as we are younger, alot of what marriage entails is wanting the family unit, the house, the whole picture and when that picture changes as the kids grow and get independent, the relationship grows and changes as well, and not always for the better. Sure you still have that person you loved and that safety net, but there needs to be more to sustain it than just friendship. I believe love can last and grow stronger, no doubt. I also believe you need to be on the same page to make lust/attraction last longer. I see no problem with wanting to pull your spouse into a bathroom at say a party, to spice it up. My husband wouldn't take that risk. This is an example of, you gotta be on the same page moving forward or trying to keep it alive or is just isn't alive. 
I worry that my now 19 year old daughter has those "marriage" glasses on now. I want my children to marry and believe in marriage (with the right person). You can have the right person and still take the risk of one or both changing as you get older or you change and it still works because you have a strong connection. I see how her relationship (been with this boy since she was 15, in HS) is SAFE and o.k. for her but I see so many flags already. She is posting marriage stuff on Pinterest ( post with her as well) because all girls dream of THEIR DAY, but she says she will wait a few years. I see her as me in 20 years. Hard to tell her that, but even when this all goes down, I hope to show her that though I love her father, I needed to live my truth and decide if the relationship was fulfilling to me.
Sorry to highjack this post, it brought up stuff for me


----------



## FlaGirl

I just want to scream from the top of my lungs, we are 48 & 53, not 90! I have tried so hard to make this clear on so many levels. 
Then there's that scared part of me that says, do you want to start all over and take the risk of finding a creep? Do you think you will find someone who loves you like your husband does and makes you feel safe? Do you want to be alone (aka:Lonely)
What about aging, health, sharing grandkids and holidays? All of those things will still get here and perhaps I will be in a much better place emotionally. But I think many people who consider divorce from a decent person wonder these things. So many unknowns. I did promise my young self a long time ago, that I would never again stay in a relationship where someone turns over in our bed and ignores me. Not talking just sexually at all here! That just intensifies feeling alone IN a relationship. Just venting
thoughts?
Has anyone ever been with a decent great spouse with lack of "drive" and wondered if they are gay? Curious


----------



## Ynot

FlaGirl said:


> I think it's a good and valid point that as we are younger, alot of what marriage entails is wanting the family unit, the house, the whole picture and when that picture changes as the kids grow and get independent, the relationship grows and changes as well, and not always for the better. Sure you still have that person you loved and that safety net, but there needs to be more to sustain it than just friendship. I believe love can last and grow stronger, no doubt. I also believe you need to be on the same page to make lust/attraction last longer. I see no problem with wanting to pull your spouse into a bathroom at say a party, to spice it up. My husband wouldn't take that risk. This is an example of, you gotta be on the same page moving forward or trying to keep it alive or is just isn't alive.
> I worry that my now 19 year old daughter has those "marriage" glasses on now. I want my children to marry and believe in marriage (with the right person). You can have the right person and still take the risk of one or both changing as you get older or you change and it still works because you have a strong connection. I see how her relationship (been with this boy since she was 15, in HS) is SAFE and o.k. for her but I see so many flags already. She is posting marriage stuff on Pinterest ( post with her as well) because all girls dream of THEIR DAY, but she says she will wait a few years. I see her as me in 20 years. Hard to tell her that, but even when this all goes down, I hope to show her that though I love her father, I needed to live my truth and decide if the relationship was fulfilling to me.
> Sorry to highjack this post, it brought up stuff for me


I think a large part of the problem is the idea most people hold of what love is. To most love is a constant never changing ideal that manifests itself in the exclusive relationship known as marriage. But the reality is if we REALLY love that other person (or ourself for that matter) then what we want most of all is for that person to be happy. There is no failure in recognizing that we may not be the person at this point in time to make this person happy. Setting them free is the ultimate sign of love. Much more so than clinging to them thru the convention of a vow made many years ago.


----------



## Keepin-my-head-up

Ynot said:


> spotthedeaddog said:
> 
> 
> 
> FlaGirl, your description reads 100% like a Mid-Life Crisis... sure it's "awakening" for you, but it's a crisis for the person who has come to rely and trust you for many years to hold up your half of the relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> So this begs the question - when is an event a crisis? Absent the marriage, would the OP's desire for a change in her life constitute a crisis? People wake up everyday and change their minds about the direction their life was moving, are these crises?
> (OP, I hope that you are not offended by the thread jack, but I think this is another aspect of this scenario that needs explored)
Click to expand...

I believe he said it was not a crisis for the OP but for the person she would be leaving.


----------



## FlaGirl

Keepin-my-head-up said:


> I believe he said it was not a crisis for the OP but for the person she would be leaving.


Re-reading that, I see your point and of course it would be considered a crisis for the other person


----------



## Ynot

FlaGirl said:


> Re-reading that, I see your point and of course it would be considered a crisis for the other person


Yes I agree. My bad. I was reacting to the ongoing references to the OPs MLC.


----------



## manfromlamancha

So FlaGirl, why won't you just simply tell your husband what you have told us here ? Particularly about the lack of attraction and how far back you have known about this. That is all that most of us are saying is the right thing to do. Nobody is suggesting that you stay with him or live in misery or anything of the sort. Just tell him the truth.

As for the term "latched on to him", these are actually your words not mine (see your post).

I really do understand where you are coming from and do not think you are a bad person to want these things. Just help your husband get on with his life by telling him the truth. He doesn't need anything else from you like friendship, handholding etc.


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## Evinrude58

My opinion: people like you make me never ever want to get married again. I think you are going to get out there and have all this passionate sex that you're looking for, and your good man you had is going to be destroyed, but long gone. Then again, you'll have half his retirement so you won't be in too bad of shape financially, right? 
I wonder if you spent less time wondering about how unattractive and asexual your husband is and more time doing things that makes you happy, you would find yourself in a different frame if mind? 
I'm sorry, I just don't like this "I've never been attracted to him stuff, and I'm not in love with him" attitude. Once you got every one of your needs taken care of by this man, you started thinking about how dull your life is. Well, have at it. He doesn't have a say in YOUR decision to divorce. Contrary to a lot of these posters beliefs-- I am of the opinion that the "vows taken years ago" are still valid. 
I'm just saddened to read all this. This is not what loyalty and love and trust and marriage is supposed to be about. Disposable spouses is the norm of our society, it appears. I don't think any man would be wise to marry you in the future.


----------



## just got it 55

Just lifted this from one of bfree's posts


"The kindest truth is often the hardest to hear."

55


----------



## manfromlamancha

just got it 55 said:


> Just lifted this from one of bfree's posts
> 
> 
> "The kindest truth is often the hardest to hear."
> 
> 55


Totally agree and IMO the main point in this discussion. It's not about whether she should stay or go - she has already made up her mind about that.


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## Evinrude58

True, I shouldn't have said anything. I do think honesty is the best policy. No way to avoid hurt here. It would be best to lay it all out and make it clear it's over, period.


----------



## FlaGirl

Wow, I find it so odd that the people who want to post the most are so judgmental. I wonder how you are in your marriages or previous ones? I am sorry you have been hurt and are going through your stuff, but you really have no right to make me feel like I have no feelings.
I do not believe TOTAL honesty in marriage is ALWAYS the best.
Had you perhaps told your wife you are disgusted by her 60lb weight gain and fat a**, I'm sure that honesty would not have gone over well.
People change as they grow. Because I have gotten to mid-life and am no longer 20-something I have changed. What I desire has changed and much of it has nothing to do with sex. I am a romantic and sexual person who married someone who is not. It was fine while we were busy raising our family and all the other things in our marriage were enough to compensate, now it is not. I have said several times I married my husband for so many reasons and I would think it would be safe to assume none of you haters married the "perfect" spouse and clearly your spouses didn't either.
We are all human, longing for connection EMOTIONAL and sexual and thus I feel my marriage is lacking. I have tried to express these things to my husband and I am not going to just drop a bomb on him. I care deeply for and respect him, that is why this is so hard. You guys are so hung up on this thing that I want to go screw eveything in site. Give it up and don't come to threads like this if it brings up stuff for you. Maybe start your own thread called,"Stay in marriage no matter what!!"


----------



## Trickster

Evinrude58 said:


> My opinion: people like you make me never ever want to get married again. I think you are going to get out there and have all this passionate sex that you're looking for, and your good man you had is going to be destroyed, but long gone. Then again, you'll have half his retirement so you won't be in too bad of shape financially, right?
> I wonder if you spent less time wondering about how unattractive and asexual your husband is and more time doing things that makes you happy, you would find yourself in a different frame if mind?
> I'm sorry, I just don't like this "I've never been attracted to him stuff, and I'm not in love with him" attitude. Once you got every one of your needs taken care of by this man, you started thinking about how dull your life is. Well, have at it. He doesn't have a say in YOUR decision to divorce. Contrary to a lot of these posters beliefs-- I am of the opinion that the "vows taken years ago" are still valid.
> I'm just saddened to read all this. This is not what loyalty and love and trust and marriage is supposed to be about. Disposable spouses is the norm of our society, it appears. I don't think any man would be wise to marry you in the future.




75 Percent Of Married People Settled, Lost Their ?True Love? [Study]


Most people settle with marriage. Most people don't want to marry the ones they're most attracted to. Most don't marry the one they have the most sexual chemistry with. Those people may not have the other traits necessary for a long term marriage.

Most people know sexual desire will change. People know we will gain weight and lose hair. People know that our spouse will develop bad habits. So knowing all the what if's, we pick a spouse that is "marriage material". A spouse that will be a good parent to our future children. A spouse who we believe will be there till death do us part and for better or for worse. We all know love will change. We will change. Our dreams will change. Our goals will change. Yet, we still marry. We still take the risk. We love and trust the person enough to take the challenge, take that Leap of faith.

Even though my marriage is platonic at the moment and my wife confirmed she always felt that way, we may eventually divorce because of that. That being said, I don't feel I made a mistake when I married her. 

I believe FlaGirl feels the same way. I don't believe she thinks she married the wrong person. Once her husband gets past the hurt, he may feel the same way.


----------



## delta88

After reading through your thread I can't help but comment on how it seems your approach to your relationship being almost business like. I just see all this me me me I want want want so let's devalue and discard scenario crap nowadays.

Going through a big mess myself I realize it comes down to getting out what you put in. Nothing more or less than that. No one is to blame and justifications are just there to make us feel better while we do what we want to do.


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## Dude007

I also think this site is much more slanted to the Left/Betrayed/hurt spouses rather than the Leavers/Waywards and sometimes brave spouses willing to pull the plug on a bad sitch for both spouses is vilified!! DUDE


----------



## RoseAglow

Op, have you read "His Needs, Her Needs?" What you are describing is literally a text book example from its pages of how a person falls out of love.

Your posts describe a person who has top emotional needs of recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment, conversation, all of which have not been met. Women often also have Family Commitment as a top EN and this can keep them bonded emotionally when the kids are young if it's met by their spouse. Once that goes, a significant source of "love bank deposits" goes as well, and the account begins to go dry. It's like losing a job but not changing one's spending habits: the love goes away, you are in withdrawal and are only very barely holding onto the marriage.

If your husband is willing, it can be turned around, truly. It is by far the best case scenario on almost every front, if it can happen. Your emotional, financial, and familial well-being are all better if you and your husband can fall back in love and continue on together.

Your husband is the key here. I hear what you're saying about him being who he is. However, just like you've changed over the years, he very well might opt to change if he understands what is going on and why it benefits him. It's important to know that it takes a lot more time, attention, and effort to keep a woman in love than it takes to keep a man in love. He might opt to be a man who steps up and joins his wife, it is usually just a change in perspective. The reality of losing a marriage, a home, a secure retirement, a family often changes perspective. Things that were once a pain in the a$$ and were only tolerated become precious. If he were to get an understanding of the true situation (that you are actually truly ready to divorce) and he also got the education on how to turn it around, he will probably make those changes. The education part is very important because he will see that the changes are truly in his best interest and that they will yield massive benefits for him- this works to make sure the changes stay, even after the crisis has resolved.

If your husband starts to meet your top emotional needs, you will eventually feel differently towards him. "Eventually" can come sooner or later, depending on how depleted your "love bank account" is, and on his ability to meet your needs. I would bet a lot of money that your sexual attraction issue would change as well. When you were in love, the sex worked for you. Even if it was never super high octane, you were connected and content, yes? Once you fell out of love, it became a problem? This is normal for women and many men as well. 

If you've read the book and tried their recommendations already, and your husband isn't interested/willing, then there isn't much more you can do, it sounds like you've already tried a few things. But if you haven't read it or tried their program, I strongly recommend that you take a look before making any significant, life-changing decisions. If nothing else, it will help you in your post-divorce relationship, if that's your future.


----------



## just got it 55

FlaGirl said:


> Wow, I find it so odd that the people who want to post the most are so judgmental. I wonder how you are in your marriages or previous ones? I am sorry you have been hurt and are going through your stuff, but you really have no right to make me feel like I have no feelings.
> I do not believe TOTAL honesty in marriage is ALWAYS the best.
> Had you perhaps told your wife you are disgusted by her 60lb weight gain and fat a**, I'm sure that honesty would not have gone over well.
> People change as they grow. Because I have gotten to mid-life and am no longer 20-something I have changed. What I desire has changed and much of it has nothing to do with sex. I am a romantic and sexual person who married someone who is not. It was fine while we were busy raising our family and all the other things in our marriage were enough to compensate, now it is not. I have said several times I married my husband for so many reasons and I would think it would be safe to assume none of you haters married the "perfect" spouse and clearly your spouses didn't either.
> We are all human, longing for connection EMOTIONAL and sexual and thus I feel my marriage is lacking. I have tried to express these things to my husband and I am not going to just drop a bomb on him. I care deeply for and respect him, that is why this is so hard. You guys are so hung up on this thing that I want to go screw eveything in site. Give it up and don't come to threads like this if it brings up stuff for you. Maybe start your own thread called,"Stay in marriage no matter what!!"


Flagirl I have been with my wife for 43 years Married for 37 of them We have been through the gamut just about everything including my own A 30 + years ago.

Man have we changed over the years

You know how we made it Complete honesty 

Four adult children all educated and thriving in their educated fields

S 34 A EDWARD R MURROW Awards winner 
S 31 Guest services Mgr at the worlds best hotel
D 29 Dr. Of Chiropractic & PhD in Clinical Nutrition
D 26 Supervising Mgr of Orthopedics at one of Bostons Best Hospitals 

You don't get that kind of success by not understanding what the right thing to do is

My wife and I have been HS sweethearts And I can tell you I have changed in dozens of ways some for the good.... some not.

My wife's reaction and actions to those changes are what made the difference for me.

When she was unhappy she told me in plain English. 

You have every right to leave It's your only life to live.

You want you husband to heal....... Tell him the truth

It doesn't have to be shouted because it's the truth
And young lady...... The truth will always be.

So let's please not make assumptions because we don't agree that my marriage is not good.

In fact it's the best it has ever been. Because we work on it

55


----------



## RoseAglow

FlaGirl, I want to be clear that if you do need to leave, I believe you can have a happy future. Men and women can find happiness, and love, and security after divorce. I have seen it many times over, in fact one of my friends is coming home this week from vacation with a new engagement ring. Her finance is awesome! They are in their mid 50s. 

Not everyone is able or willing to make changes- your husband could be one of them. But most people are willing and are actually enthusiastic to do what is needed to become a better partner, to learn from their mistakes, once they are experiencing loss. You can see it all the time on this website. 

I just want to encourage you to check all the boxes, and make an exhaustive attempt to fix things before breaking up your marriage. Make completely certain that it can't be fixed.


----------



## Ynot

just got it 55 said:


> So let's please not make assumptions because we don't agree that my marriage is not good.
> 
> In fact it's the best it has ever been. Because we work on it
> 
> 55


55 the thing you seem not to realize is that it took the two of you to make your marriage work. The OP has made the effort, her H won't. What is she supposed to do? She can't make him change and even if she could there is no guarantee he will change in a way that is attractive to her. Regardless of your success with raising your children (my ex and I were as well) it has no bearing on the OPs life.


----------



## just got it 55

Ynot said:


> 55 the thing you seem not to realize is that it took the two of you to make your marriage work. The OP has made the effort, her H won't. What is she supposed to do? She can't make him change and even if she could there is no guarantee he will change in a way that is attractive to her. Regardless of your success with raising your children (my ex and I were as well) it has no bearing on the OPs life.


Ynot I would love to hear his side

I bet we would see a very different picture

I am 60 years old married 37 years I know fully well it takes two

I am not saying for her to stay

I am saying tell the fvcking truth period.

Anything else is cowardly .Sugar coating is for her not him.

She lets herself off the hook.

He will heal faster and move forward faster with all the info

He can decide if she is full of sh!t or not He may lie to himself buts that's on him

55


----------



## just got it 55

Ynot said:


> 55 the thing you seem not to realize is that it took the two of you to make your marriage work. The OP has made the effort, her H won't. What is she supposed to do? She can't make him change and even if she could there is no guarantee he will change in a way that is attractive to her. *Regardless of your success with raising your children (my ex and I were as well) it has no bearing on the OPs life.*




I fundamentally disagree with your assessment it has no bearing

It's team building at it's finest
It's co-operation and compromise 
It's your life's work
It's life and love sustaining 

This is what has bonded my wife and I through all the pains and sorry all the success and failure.It grew our love and mutual attraction.

The kind of stuff you don't read in 50 shades of grey(There I said it)

So our attraction is based on reality in purpose in dedication to each other

Besides all that The OP brought my marriage into question is why I responded .

55


----------



## Evinrude58

You can talk about how you're entitled to be happy and how he's no longer romantic and this and that, but the truth is that you're not making every effort to fix things, or you would have separated and told him you wanted a divorce and waited to see if he's willing to meet you halfway on things. If you must go, find a way not to take half his retirement. He earned it. 
I don't know you. I'm not mad at you. I just hate to see this happen to anyone. Someone who was/is good to you and it's still not good enough. The butterflies you're looking for don't last. The good treatment your husband gave you does.
You are unhappy. You have a right to seek happiness. I guess you've told him already, but I suspect you didn't make it real enough. I'd bet the man would do a lot to keep you happy if you gave him a chance before you had your mind made up.

Btw, few men are "romantic" forever. You're looking for the holy grail of men....


----------



## sapientia

just got it 55 said:


> Ynot I would love to hear his side
> 
> I bet we would see a very different picture
> 
> I am 60 years old married 37 years I know fully well it takes two
> 
> I am not saying for her to stay
> 
> I am saying tell the fvcking truth period.
> 
> Anything else is cowardly .Sugar coating is for her not him.
> 
> She lets herself off the hook.
> 
> He will heal faster and move forward faster with all the info
> 
> He can decide if she is full of sh!t or not He may lie to himself buts that's on him
> 
> 55


What worked for you may or may not work for others.

You are making tons of assumptions in your recent posts. You do not know what he needs as you are not him.

You are also insulting her in this post. Cursing and calling her cowardly.

I have reported this post to the mods.


----------



## Ynot

just got it 55 said:


> [/B]
> 
> I fundamentally disagree with your assessment it has no bearing
> 
> It's team building at it's finest
> It's co-operation and compromise
> It's your life's work
> It's life and love sustaining
> 
> This is what has bonded my wife and I through all the pains and sorry all the success and failure.It grew our love and mutual attraction.
> 
> The kind of stuff you don't read in 50 shades of grey(There I said it)
> 
> So our attraction is based on reality in purpose in dedication to each other
> 
> Besides all that The OP brought my marriage into question is why I responded .
> 
> 55


But again it was the TWO of you. Whatever you did was agreeable and acceptable to your wife. Whatever she did was agreeable and acceptable to you. See - it was both of you. In the case of the OP whatever her husband has or hasn't done is NOT acceptable or agreeable to the OP. It takes two and if the two can't have a meeting of the mind so speak it is not going to work. It is immoral and unjust to advise the OP to just keep working on it because that is what worked for you. I am glad your situation worked out for you. But that isn't the case for every couple.


----------



## just got it 55

sapientia said:


> What worked for you may or may not work for others.
> 
> You are making tons of assumptions in your recent posts. *You do not know what he needs as you are not him.*
> 
> Everybody needs and deserves the truth
> 
> You are also insulting her in this post. Cursing and calling her cowardly.
> 
> I have reported this post to the mods.


Well I didn't call her cowardly I call the act cowardly
But aren't people making assumptions when not knowing Her H side of the issues ?

Sorry if my response came across as insulting It's a very emotional subject

55


----------



## sapientia

Hey, I'm not the forum police. I do happen to think the OP is doing quite fine. She is honesty assessing her marriage, her needs, and considering her options in the context of past and present. She doesn't strike me as the sort that will resonate to terms like "cowardly". I don't believe she is this at all, quite the contrary.

I personally find your marriage story inspiring, 55. Like you, I believe strongly in marriage and commitment.

I also understand the OPs POV about a spouse who simply won't change. That was my ex, and I lived that story for almost 20 years. That said, in my case we did have honest, if heated exchanges, and we finally both agreed that, as sad as it was, neither of us were really able to give the other what we needed. So we divorced. Quite amicably, as most know from my other posts.

The flip side to this story is that she stays and HE is made miserable, knowing she wants something other than what he can give her. Drives himself to unhappiness trying to become someone he is not. Mutually destructive unhappiness. There are lots of these zombie, marriage-by-habit couples as well.

Let's try to keep this civil, shall we? In the end, its her life. We don't have to live it.


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## just got it 55

I agree.............also civility and truthfulness go hand in hand

As I continue to say Flagirl has every right to make her own path for happiness

But at the very least I for one believe she owes him the truth and all of it

It can be made with a compassionate delivery Like a Dr. giving a patient very bad news

AND........ If the story is as told I should not shock him.

They are much more likely to have a very tearful conversation

Cry and console each other and in the end reach a kind of friendship to function as parents/ grand parents

And you know what He will gain happiness in time once he come to terms with is shortcomings

And FLagirl will just be learning about hers.

Lets assume he's a big boy takes the hit and move on It's what they both need

I have no illusions this works for either of them.

With that I wish Flagirl well It's hard to know what the right thing to do is but when you know it It's hard not to do.

55


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## FlaGirl

I plan to have a very honest talk with my husband. I do not plan to divulge every emotion or thought. I respect and appreciate the thoughts and can understand some of the backlash, but I guess I have to question why you came to my thread if you wanted to just bash me or look out for my husbands interests? Perhaps thinking of what is unresolved in your own mind or relationships? I did clearly ask for advise from those walking in my shoes, not those who have been burned. Though I feel for you, I have put it all out there, with some regret, but sometimes people can only be TRULY honest on this level with strangers. You know why? Because we do actually have a heart and do care about the feelings of the person we are married to or were married to. Imgine that. Things change or remain the same, but for whatever reason and mine are all spelled out, it doesn't continue to WORK. And yes it does take 2. There isn't anything I wouldn't do to stop the pain, it can't happen, impossible, but I will try my best to be as honest about OUR relationship and my needs. I am being VERY fair also in the divorce, so please don't preach about retirement. For 1 thing it is state law and he makes 3 times as much as I. I am leaving him our cabin. I need some money to start over. He could leave me tomorrow and he would still need to give me half AND AS A MARRIED COUPLE (WE) worked for that retirement, so take that "men are getting ripped off by women attitude" and think twice please (ya'll know who I am speaking to here) . Perhaps my husband can be free to find someone more like himself, imagine that concept.And BTW if you are looking out for my husband, why the heck would you want him to hear I don't have a HUGE sexual desire for him? Why on earth? I NEVER said I do not have feelings sexual or othewrise, just that when I married I felt that way and it continued, but it wasn't so important or I over-looked it due to many other wonderful qualities, and it clearly worked for us, as we have been married 22 years, so please get off of the whole BE TOTALLY HONEST BS!


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## Dude007

like I said, way too many betrayed/left spouses on here to get objective advice. These posts stir their emotions and lookout!! Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## delta88

I was speaking of both parties and didn't mean to sound judgemental. Should a man/woman/whatever allow their companion to live unhappy? Absolutely not. And all of us should be able to enjoy life and be happy. Life's too short.
Just after reflecting on my own situation, I can say that I sat by expecting my wife to meet my needs but never considered if I was meeting her needs. Selfishness can always be explained away. I can bet if you spoke to your husband, he'd probably tell you he isn't happy either and he lives what you're feeling.


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## just got it 55

I'm not helping here so I will be on my way

Hope you find you happiness Flagirl I really do

55


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## Dude007

just got it 55 said:


> I'm not helping here so I will be on my way
> 
> Hope you find you happiness Flagirl I really do
> 
> 55


55, sounds like you may have some unreslved issues. Let us know if maybe we can help you...We're all in this together...DUDE


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## Riptide

For the record, I am on the opposite side of this. My wife left me and yet I fully understand FLAGirls POV. The main difference in my situation is that I would have been 100% willing to engage my wife salvage the marriage had I really understood how far gone she was drifting away. Our marriage, although not in crisis (I thought) did flat line and we were both just living life for the last year or so. That was on both of us though in my opinion speaking in my situation. However, I do understand the need to feel engaged and connected emotionally to your spouse and if one or both partners are not willing over an extended time, then a marriage is doomed. It can either be a slow gradual death or sometimes it comes like a freight train. Only FlaGirl really knows if she gave her husband every opportunity to come around and step up. My wife and I agree to disagree that she gave me the chance to try and rediscover a spark before she went outside the marriage but I do realize if I did "knowingly" ignore her advances to improve the marriage, she had every right to find happiness ....just not the adulterous way she did. 

In FlaGirls case, it seems that she did clearly indicate her needs were not being met and threatened divorce a year ago so if that does not indicate a wake up call then I don't what is. At least she is not going out looking for someone else before leaving. In this day and age that certainly is not always the case or the majority it would seem


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