# Men , Why Do You Work?



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I came across a post in another thread in which one female poster was saying that men work hard to make money only because , 

" _they want the fear and admiration of other men._." 

A couple of other women agreed , although men were basically saying that men work because they want mostly to please their women and family.

At 44 yrs of age, I have been working for the greater part of my life and I'm sure many other men here too. Ever since I was 11 yrs old , I entered the world of part time work, and today I own a lucrative business.
I was always taught by my mother that a real man works hard, and provides for his woman and tries to secure a future for his kids and other dependents.
I am usually up at 4 AM every morning, preparing for my day. By 8 PM in the evening I'm dog tired.
Me wife always tells me how much she admires and appreciates how hard I work, and it's like music to my ears. It inspires me and gives me hope.
She's a hard worker too, and I know beyond the shadow of doubt , that she works hard to make sure I'm comfortable and pleased. Words can't say enough how much I appreciate it , but I try to show by my actions.
But I know I'm an old timer full of outdated values that have no real place in this *_postmodern_* society.

So it came as a surprise to me that a man's work isn't viewed in that light. That some women feel that men mostly work hard because they first and foremost, want to be respected and feared by other men,
And it's not to please their wives.


What has been your experience?
Why do you work hard?
Is it not to please your woman and kids first and foremost?

Also to the women who are either employed or are SAHM's , why do you work so hard?
Is it not to please your husband and family first and foremost?
Do you feel appreciated?
Do you appreciate that your husband works hard?
If not, why ?

I've attached a poll above , feel free to vote and post your comments!


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

This is a trick question, right?

I actually work hard for one reason: the financial security to do what I want. The moment that is no longer necessary, I am done working - at least, for other people. I busted butt through 20 years in the military for one reason, which is to retire at a specific rank, to be able to draw a pension that means I don't HAVE to work as hard.

I wouldn't say that I do this so that Lady Convection is proud of me, though that is is a nice side benefit. I want to take care of her (us) and make sure she is (we are) provided for. Back-breaking work in my youth and a lot of saving means that we are debt free and financially sound in our older years and not having to work into our seventies. I can now have another job - a job I am not bound to, if it sucks. She has her own business, which I can work to expand. I am trying to publish some novels. I can teach. I may bounce around until I find something I like. In the meantime, I plan to also spend time working on our acreage, building a greenhouse, and some other projects. Plus, I have my own wants: travel to take, books to read & write, spend time with my aging parents and precocious granddaughter. Working? Interferes with all that.

If I have to boil it down to a bullet point, it would be: I work to live, not live to work.

The admiration of other men, frankly, never entered my mind. I don't feel as if I am a contest with anyone. I work for my wife and I, and no one else. If someone looked down on me for that, too bad. If I could stop tomorrow and keep us comfortable, I would. 

BTW, I didn't see the poll attached.

ETA: Okay, now I see it.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I started part-time employment around the age of 15/16 and, apart from 5 years when my son was young, worked very hard up until early retirement.

Initially, I worked to gain some independence (buying my own clothes and paying for my own entertainment without the need for pocket money from my parents), then later on to pay for driving lessons, purchase a car, pay for overseas holidays and support myself. When I got divorced, I worked (VERY) hard to support my son and I, pay for his education, live in a nice home / environment and to provide security for my old age.

For me, work was not only an absolute necessity, but a self-esteem builder. It gave me independence and made me feel good about myself. Even when I had to do some extra crappy little jobs to make ends meet (when my son was young), I took pride in what I did because it made me feel good about myself.

I didn't vote, CM, because I don't see a category for my situation.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Because my thumbs cramp up if I play video games too long and don't ask about my rotator cuff.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Because they won't let me steal the cable...


I only work to pay for things. I like what I do. It is physical work but it also is rewarding. But I do it to pay the bills and to afford a pretty good lifestyle.

I could care less what other men think about what I do.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I worked to provide for my family and myself. It was important to have a job that was respected, true, but not the main thing. The main thing was the paycheck. If it was all about d*ck length I would not have gladly retired in November.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

I work to vacation


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> I work to vacation


An annoying but necessary 11-month interruption of your vacation schedule.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

I used to think it was because I like to eat but now I see it is to support my MIL.

Ok I just threw up in my mouth! That woman ......OMG.........


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

My DH has told me that he works to pay the bills, period. He would happily stop working if we had the $ to allow it.

For me, I work to pay the bills, sure. I also work because I love to work: I feel useful and productive through work; I am derive a lot of self-esteem from my work. I have found all of this to be true, pretty much regardless of what the job was. I didn't think it about it when I started working at age 15, but definitely I was conscious of the importance of work to me by the time I had my first post-bachelors job. It is very important to me to be able to support myself. 

That said, life/work balance is important, too. I don't want to work more than 40 hours, where it can helped. I am very lucky in my current job, which is almost always a straight 40 hrs, working from home. Decent salary and nice benefits. Fairly good job stability. I could support our family, at a much reduced lifestyle but above poverty, if anything horrible happened to my husband.

I think I will probably continue to work in some form or another until I just can't any longer, either due to death or disability. I am a lot like my mom, who is "retired" but does a lot of short-term gigs either filling in a position as an Interim, or teaching, or just helping cover the admin positions (she worked for many years for a nursing home facility.) She is widowed, but she and my dad were pretty frugal, so she doesn't need the money, but she works to help out the facility and her friends, and also to finance traveling adventures. She really loves being able to a day here, a day there, on her own schedule. That will hopefully be me when I am her age (just short of 70.)


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

For me it is both to provide well for my family and because I like nice things. Overall it is about Quality of life, which means having enough $ to have a little fun and to have some of the nice extras, plus meet all the important priorities.

Private school for the kids, a nice home in a good neighborhood, fun vacations, good bicycles, nice musical instruments, music lessons, sports activities, adequate clothing, etc for the kids and family.

For me, I like fine musical instruments, some guns, some technology, and cars.

At my age, 53, priorities are shifting to solidifying a retirement. I've got adequate stuff, and in fact too much stuff. Knocking down economic worries about the future is now a priority.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I'd just like to add... In early retirement, I've started studying for another career that I will (hopefully) be able to do for as long as I have all my faculties. I'm doing this to not only keep my grey cells ticking over, but also to keep me out of bed all day.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

I work for financial security for my family primarily. But I would work even if I didn't have to because sitting at home with nothing to do would put me in the grave. I also enjoy learning new things, so after I retired I would like Cosmos find another career to continue keeping active.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I work for my family and luckily I enjoy my work. Although some of the early starts are a biotch.

When I retire I intend to go fishing, cook, make models and retake up archaeology.


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## NewHubs (Dec 23, 2012)

What is this talk of retirement? I hear it's nice. 

I'm in a generation that will never be able to retire and live comfortably. 

So for now I'll just keep working for the man
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I was always taught by my mother that a real man works hard, and provides for his woman and tries to secure a future for his kids and other dependents.
> 
> Me wife always tells me how much she admires and appreciates how hard I work, and it's like music to my ears. It inspires me and gives me hope.
> 
> ...



You have the right values, CM. Be proud. And thank your mother.

Dh has always been a hard worker. He grew up on a little farm and has always enjoyed physical labor. He is an engineer and does mostly intellectual work, but certainly isn't afraid to get his hands dirty.

Hard-working, family values guys inspire my respect.

Dh works to take care of us, but I know he enjoys working, period. 

I am a SAHM because that is what dh wanted, and was willing to pay for. I breastfed and homeschooled because that is what he wanted. 

I have tried to do a good job, even when it was so hard that I just wanted to run away. 

It is just the right thing to do, to work hard, to put your heart and soul into what you are doing.

I know dh appreciates what I do, and I certainly appreciate what he does. Some man said here that his wife has never thanked him for providing for their family. I was shocked by that. Shocked.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

NewHubs said:


> What is this talk of retirement? I hear it's nice.
> 
> I'm in a generation that will never be able to retire and live comfortably.
> 
> ...


I hear you there. 

Retirement? 

:rofl:


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

NONE< I work cause I need money period. I win the lottery I'm not working another day in my life!!


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

When I was in my mid teens, I watched a 20 year old, who lived up the street, drive by in a Chevy SS convertible with a blonde bombshell in the passenger seat. I thought if you wanted a girl like that, you needed to get a car like that. To get a car like that you need a job. I was off to work like that. I don't have the car anymore, I don't work anymore either. I still have the girl.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Caribbean Man said:


> I came across a post in another thread in which one female poster was saying that men work hard to make money only because ,
> 
> " _they want the fear and admiration of other men._."


If you are going to cherry pick my quote then at least explain the context and include the rest of my post. It was in response to a poster who said: 

_*If money wasn't important to women. It wouldn't be important to us. We don't pursue money and power because we give a crap about it. We do it because we know what comes with it.*_

I wrote about the men I used to work with and their motivations for acquiring the wealth they did. They did it to one up each other and be feared and envied by less affluent men. Money to them equaled power which equaled fear and jealousy among other men. They acquired objects that most women couldn't possibly appreciate, but men could. 

I also pointed out that the male gay community is by and large financially successful so if women were the only motivator for obtaining money, how do you explain that? The suggestion that men only earn money because of women was ridiculous and that's what I was responding to. 

Your poll proved the other guy wrong, by the way. Nearly everybody here said they work to pay their bills, have nice things, go on vacation or because they would be bored. Would they suddenly stop wanting those things and thus working if women fell off the face of the Earth? No.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Work is what we're made for. It's how we create, solve problems, learn, grow, it makes us and the world around us more interesting, challenging, and purposeful. An added benefit is that people really need our labor. What's the point of life if you're not doing something positive with it? No welfare, pension, or disability check can replace all we gain from work. Even after I retire, I'll have to have something constructive to do.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I work to pay the bills. I plan to retire at age 55. No, I'm not rich, but I guess my idea of comfort may be different than other men. My idea of comfort is not being able to take vacations and have fancy cars, my idea of comfort is having everything working and functional.

I want a decent house with a roof that doesn't leak, a bed, all the appliances, a phone, tv, etc, although none have to be gold plated.

I like to have enough money to pay the bills and, if I suddenly need a new set of tires, my fridge goes out, or i need a new roof, it doesn't change my life to pay for it; I just write a check.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

He would answer ...#4 "*I work hard because I love my wife and family and want to see them happy*." ...plus I know this is what he feels is his role as a MAN -this gives him Purpose...to Protect and Provide..


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If you are going to cherry pick my quote then at least explain the context and include the rest of my post. It was in response to a poster who said:
> 
> _*If money wasn't important to women. It wouldn't be important to us. We don't pursue money and power because we give a crap about it. We do it because we know what comes with it.*_
> 
> ...


I disagree.

If anything the poll proves him _right._
90% [ so far ] of those who voted in the actual poll , voted for the last option that said:

_" I work hard because I love my wife and family and want to see them happy.._."
0% voted for the first option that contained your quote :
"_ I work hard because I want the fear and envy from other men._

I placed two other options in between which basically mirrors option one [ material things] and four [ family ] in an attempt to split the votes , yet those who voted so far , voted solidly behind the two options that includes wives , family and society.
None voted for power , fear or envy of other men.

Basically the men you used in your example of why men work so hard are not representative of the wider group of men albeit , those on TAM. Gay men also represent a tiny subset of men.

Those men on the thread whose responses included going on vacations and purchasing nice stuff would also have to be included in the set who voted for their wives and family because nobody goes on vacation alone except they're single. 

So lets assume that the men on the thread who didn't vote in the poll did so because they're single.
The reality is, even if they're single , the most popular vacation spots on the planet for single men are places where there are beautiful women , nice beaches and a great nightlife. Brazil , Thailand , Costa Rica , Columbia to name a few.

Logically , if all of the women fell off of the planet, most men won't be working.
Basically, men work because money can buy things that could make them happy.
An integral part of what the majority of men feel would make them happy is a family and a good woman who loves them at best , or just a beautiful woman at least.
Everything else , car , house , nice clothes , bills , food etc, falls somewhere within that spectrum.

Lets suppose your theory is 100% true for most men.
Then what would you say is the main reason behind most women working and also those who work really hard?
Is it not basically for their families?
Or is it to gain fear and respect from other women?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> You have the right values, CM. Be proud. And thank your mother.
> 
> *Dh has always been a hard worker. He grew up on a little farm and has always enjoyed physical labor. He is an engineer and does mostly intellectual work, but certainly isn't afraid to get his hands dirty.
> *
> ...


Thanks for your words.

Truth is , before I logged on to TAM awhile ago , I was outside in our backyard garden for most of the afternoon. 
I love gardening.
I love to grow the vegetables my wife and I juice and drink every morning. Stuff like broccoli, beets ,cucumbers , bitter melon and lots more vegetables. I like getting my hand in the soil. That's how I grew up.
Wife loves to do it with me also.

This sentence in your post caught my attention:

_" I know dh appreciates what I do, and I certainly appreciate what he does..."_

I think most people if not all, work hard and appreciate their spouse's contribution , because without it , life would be much harder. Even if that spouse is just a SAHM. No way in this world a husband could work long hours , come home to clean an untidy house , cook food food , do his own laundry , take care of kids and their homework ,and all the stuff that involved in running a home ,and be a success at work.
The reality is, even if a husband hardly ever mentions it , he is grateful , because he knows without his [ SAHM ]wife's input , his life would be so much harder.

I believe that in the majority of normal , healthy relationships where both spouses work , they both work for one goal, to make life better for each other and the family.
If one doesn't appreciate the other's input , then something's definitely wrong either with one or both persons or relationship dynamic.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Caribbean Man said:


> I disagree.
> 
> If anything the poll proves him _right._
> 90% [ so far ] of those who voted in the actual poll , voted for the last option that said:
> ...


I was responding to a man who said men only value money because of women and that they wouldn't strive to earn any but for them. Women earn money for a whole host of reasons, most of it is for their children. 

money only matters to women and without it, men wouldn't care about it.  I provided an example of men who do it simply for the power and fear from other men. I also pointed out the gay male aspect, whiYou deliberately took everything I said out of context to suit your agenda. Not once did I say that men don't earn money to provide for their families. I responded to a guy who said ch is much larger than many think. You harp on me yet give this guy a pass for his ridiculous and blatant ignorant response?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So they wouldn't need to eat, have shelter, electricity, a car to drive, money to pay to a doctor or funds for their burial?
> 
> *I guess women have more power than I thought they did.*





Yes, that is definitely what I'm saying, what that other poster was saying, and what other men on that other thread were saying.

As a mater of fact , 
Most certainly , women do have tremendous power over men's decisions and lives.
.
Need I mention historical facts like Marc Anthony and Cleopatra?

Technically, that is what most men here are saying , and which is also my agenda in this thread.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I work to earn money. Why? Shops don't accept anything else.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

this poll does not have an option for me. i work hard because i love to work. simple as that. i take pride in what i do. 

the rest of those things mean very little to me compared to knowing that i have done good work.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

We have to pay a mortgage, buy food, clothing and other necessities. Private school for my youngest is expensive and we enjoy some level of leisure which is rarely free. I also hope to retire comfortably some day. Pretty much why both of us work hard.

ETA: I do enjoy my career, but realize that I could make more if I had more money to invest and concentrate on that rather than collecting a paycheck. But, it is what it is, I do the best I can at with my abilities and know that the competition to maintain my position demands as much.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Caribbean Man said:


> I disagree.
> 
> If anything the poll proves him _right._
> 90% [ so far ] of those who voted in the actual poll , voted for the last option that said:
> ...


I was responding to a man who said men only value money because of women and that they wouldn't strive to earn any but for them. Women earn money for a whole host of reasons, most of it is for their children. 

You deliberately took everything I said out of context to suit your agenda. Not once did I say that men don't earn money to provide for their families. I responded to a guy who said men *only* want money because of women. Wall Street and other wealthy men were my examples of men I worked with.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> When I was in my mid teens, I watched a 20 year old, who lived up the street, drive by in a Chevy SS convertible with a blonde bombshell in the passenger seat. I thought if you wanted a girl like that, you needed to get a car like that. To get a car like that you need a job. I was off to work like that. I don't have the car anymore, I don't work anymore either. I still have the girl.


Channeling Eddie Cochran.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

NewHubs said:


> What is this talk of retirement? I hear it's nice.
> 
> * I'm in a generation that will never be able to retire and live comfortably.
> *
> ...


Defeatist propaganda. Don't believe it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I am fortunate, in that I have found someone willing to pay me to do my hobby.:smthumbup:


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Being homeless, hungry and cold is not an option.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I came across a post in another thread in which one female poster was saying that men work hard to make money only because ,
> 
> " _they want the fear and admiration of other men._."


:lol: :rofl:


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You deliberately took everything I said out of context to suit your agenda. Not once did I say that men don't earn money to provide for their families. I responded to a guy who said men *only* want money because of women. Wall Street and other wealthy men were my examples of men I worked with.


A lot of wall-street strivers are pathologically sick people who will never feel like they have enough. They are fighting to fill some kind of deep void in their self-worth. They do not represent most men.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

John Lee said:


> A lot of wall-street strivers are pathologically sick people who will never feel like they have enough. They are fighting to fill some kind of deep void in their self-worth. They do not represent most men.


Men like them exist in droves. That was my point. This posters assertion that men only strive for money because of women is garbage. The men who rule the world do it for everything but women. I actually admire them in that they are honest about their pursuits.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I never said anything about their psyche now did I? I said that men like them exist in droves. That was my point. This posters assertion that men only strive for money because of women is garbage. The men who rule the world do it for everything but women. I actually admire them in that they are honest about their pursuits.


Good for you.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Men like them exist in droves. That was my point. This posters assertion that men only strive for money because of women is garbage. The men who rule the world do it for everything but women. I actually admire them in that they are honest about their pursuits.


I think the evo-psych argument would be that at the bottom of the drive to become powerful is still a reproductive drive. I don't know if that's true or not. But as far as "fear and respect," I laugh because I have little respect for the typical wall street striver and certainly no fear of him. I have more respect for a man who builds his own business from the ground up, whether it becomes a multi-billion dollar corporation or simply a local brewery. But also for a man who devotes his life to any work that he truly believes in, even if he makes little money.

A delusion of fear and respect from other men will never make me happy. Sure, I want "respect" to an extent but I don't believe I can buy it. Beyond meeting the basic needs of safety, shelter, warmth, food, etc., money for me is mostly about providing for my family. I get little pleasure from having a fancier car, a luxury suit, eating in a restaurant with multiple michelin-stars, etc. I have certain things I love in life and I do hope to put away enough money to leave work behind and do what I love with my family still provided for. Beyond that I have no interest in getting rich.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Perhaps you are right but then explain this to me: Why would a man here claim two years ago to be a medical doctor only to not be. He now claims to have an MBA who could have nailed Dallas Cowboy Cheerleeders. Why would a man here claim to own a car that cost nearly a million dollars to import only it doesn't come even close to $20,000 to do so? An anonymous website and yet two men here feel the need to say this and lesser men find them so attractive? They are doing it so other men find them worthy.


How do you know it's not so women find him worthy? Besides, you're not giving examples of why men work, you're giving examples of why a few outlier men lie about their lives.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Men like them exist in droves. That was my point. This posters assertion that men only strive for money because of women is garbage. The men who rule the world do it for everything but women. I actually admire them in that they are honest about their pursuits.


Here, I'll tell you something funny about male psychology, based on analyzing my own reaction to your post. When I read this, my first instinctive reaction was to feel challenged by it, as though I ought to want greater power, to rule the world. Why? Because you are a woman saying you admire that, even though you're a woman I've never met and literally know nothing about. I can't say whether that's universal male psychology, but that's mine.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't work for any of the reasons in the survey. Sure, work provides the money to have a place to live, food to eat, car to drive, etc, but I work because I love what I do. I could have chosen a profession that paid more money, but I am not working to earn the most money. I am doing what I love and that is worth all the money in the world.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

John Lee said:


> Here, I'll tell you something funny about male psychology, based on analyzing my own reaction to your post. When I read this, my first instinctive reaction was to feel challenged by it, as though I ought to want greater power, to rule the world. Why? Because you are a woman saying you admire that, even though you're a woman I've never met and literally know nothing about. I can't say whether that's universal male psychology, but that's mine.


Yet in my post I never once said I admired them for having money. I said I admired them for acknowledging what their motives were. In other words, being honest about themselves. THAT is what I admired.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yet in my post I never once said I admired them for having money. I said I admired them for acknowledging what their motives were. In other words, being honest about themselves. THAT is what I admired.


I suppose it's something I just don't understand then. The only benefits I can see to being feared by other men are (1) women find it attractive and (2) perhaps there's a defensive benefit to it -- ward off those who might otherwise threaten you.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

You forgot to pay for child support and alimony.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

John Lee said:


> I suppose it's something I just don't understand then. The only benefits I can see to being feared by other men are (1) women find it attractive and (2) perhaps there's a defensive benefit to it -- ward off those who might otherwise threaten you.


If you were a man making $80-$100MM a year, you would get it. It took me nearly 8 years to understand the dynamic but let's just say not one of them did it for women, they did it for admiration and fear from other men and they got it.

My point being that not all men want money because of women. The guy who said so is flat out wrong.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

To paraphrase an old wall street joke, "that's why I'll never make $80-100 mm"


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

What kind of question is this? Why do I work? Why does ANYONE work? To pay the darn bills! Duh!
But why did I work HARD when I got married? To give my daughter the childhood I never had!
So why do I work now? Because I can't delegate my role... bah!

Btw... who came up with this? 
"I work hard because I want the fear and envy from other men"
:rofl:


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

My husband would work whether or not he was married. He loves his job and it's really important to him that he works hard at something he finds interesting and that he is respected and successful in his field.

My dad is the same. I'm a bit shocked by a lot of these responses. I thought that having a successful career that you enjoyed and felt made a difference would be more important to more people. 

When I was working full time, I was doing it because I was passionate about my job and what I was accomplishing. It was important to me, regardless of money. I know I did good work and I made a positive difference in a lot of people's lives. When my kids are older, I hope to do that again.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> I work for my family and luckily I enjoy my work. Although some of the early starts are a biotch.
> 
> When I retire I intend to go fishing, cook, make models and retake up archaeology.


One thing I will say, influenced by some of the other posts in this thread, is that within my social circle I am regarded as a high earner. And yes, I do get a certain sense of pride out of that. 

However that is tempered by the knowledge that within the greater scheme of things, and I suspect from reading between the lines, on TAM, I am pretty small beer in that regard.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

The poll needs another option. Something like, "I work because I find my job fulfilling and satisfying and the work I do is meaningful to me in it's own right."


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Being homeless, hungry and cold is not an option.


I asked my husband this question.

He answered yes to the wife and family, and yes, to expensive things... but underlying both of these, is the fact that he wants a roof over his/our head, clothes on his back and food to eat.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Also to the women who are either employed or are SAHM's why do you work so hard?
> Is it not to please your husband and family first and foremost?
> Do you feel appreciated?
> Do you appreciate that your husband works hard?
> If not, why ?


There was an option not to work? Dagnabbit, how'd I miss that memo! I kid.

I couldn't say it's to please my husband first and foremost. No. There's a balance to be had in our goals as a couple, helping with our shared responsibilities, and what's important to me/us and the paths we try in life. We're supportive of each other in this way. My husband does appreciate me - not for the salary I earn necessarily, but for the way I help to manage our finances and in turn, achieve our goals.

I highly respect my husband. I've experienced his work ethic and how he got to be where he's at; all while keeping with his own values. That's not always an easy road to walk. He's got integrity. It's not about the amount he earns; it's about his character and what makes him who he is.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Ok.

Lets have a look at this chart done by Abraham Maslow ,[ whom everyone here is familiar with,] in his 1943 paper "_A Theory of Human Motivation_" 

Basically ,Maslow used the terms Physiological, Safety, Belongingness and Love, Esteem, Self-Actualization and Self-Transcendence needs to describe the progression of the stages which human motivations generally move through.



The most basic human needs are at the bottom of the pyramid [ obviously]. These are what motivates us as human beings:

Breathing , Food , Water , Sex ,Sleep , Homeostasis , Excretion.

Sex is on the same level as breathing and homeostasis.

No civizilation , tribe or society was ever built or able to survive without the monogamous marriage construct.
Why?
Because men at the visceral level want a steady supply of sex and women want the best and fittest offspring . In order to have that , her mate must be able to provide more than just sperm. He must be able to provide food and shelter so that her offspring and her life would be in a state of homeostasis, another basic need.
The concept of organized labour , capitalism, politics , government , and human development are all built around monogamous marriage construct and stable families.
You cannot build a stable , productive society without stable families which in turn build cohesive links with other families and then you have communities , societies , countries and so forth.
In order to have stable families then sex between humans must be controlled so that offspring is accounted and cared for , population controlled and labour organized.

Organized labour => A successful economy=> Political Stability.

So on a very basic level , we work because we want food and shelter. After those two needs are met , [ second level on the diagram] we want a family.
There cannot be a family without offspring. There can't be offspring without women.
Remove women from the equation , there is no need to work because the entire construct collapses.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> Being homeless, hungry and cold and sexless is not an option.



Fixed it for you!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

NewHubs said:


> What is this talk of retirement? I hear it's nice.
> 
> I'm in a generation that will never be able to retire and live comfortably.
> 
> ...


Yup.This is us.That generation who will never see retirement.Work til we drop.

DH works to pay bills,save money,and do fun things and so do I.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> *Men like them exist in droves. That was my point. This posters assertion that men only strive for money because of women is garbage. The men who rule the world do it for everything but women. I actually admire them in that they are honest about their pursuits.*


I was talking to my husband about the 4 choices CB offered on the poll...he agrees with YOU TRBE...that many men do *compete* with each other, he sees it at work and these are not wall street guys...just blue collar....everyone wants to ONE UP each other, they fight , they brag, they want to be the TOP DOG - men are always in a competition.. it's not something that he cares about at all -and frankly I am thankful..

His motto is "I am happy" -that's enough.. I would never want to be married to the aggressive workaholic trying to out do all the men around him, what a racket.. so long as we can vacation, pay all our bills... have some money saved back for emergencies, work to own what is important to us... this is LIVING....having a job that you enjoy doing -going to every day so it is not pure drudgery also helps...I think most people would say the Job itself is not so bad, it's putting up with the Co-workers that makes it hell at times.

If you got Love, family, some good friends, a place to call Home to get away from the Rat race...what else does a man need to be fulfilled ?? 

The hardest part is worrying what may come, loosing our health is #1... (so I feel)... Getting laid off can be tough.. but there is always Hope with that one...I've always resonated with this saying.. he brought this home to me many years ago, it was on the Urinal wall at his work place...(funny place I know).. It's how we both feel...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Because men at the visceral level want a steady supply of sex and women want the best and fittest offspring . In order to have that , her mate must be able to provide more than just sperm. He must be able to provide food and shelter so that her offspring and her life would be in a state of homeostasis, another basic need.


I was going to stay out of this thread because I'm not a man, but I feel this need to point out here that women are human too. 

Sex is a *human* physiological and emotional need, not just for men, but for women too.

As is food, water, shelter, clothing. And guess what? Women have never just sat around waiting for some guy to provide it for them, as you would have it here, but are out there working alongside men getting it themselves.

Family is also a need for *men*, not just women. Men don't just provide for babies because it's a nasty side effect of sex. Many *want* children, and consider them important. They even enjoy caring for them and teaching them.

In the end, *both* men and women work to provide for their needs, and yes, those needs will often include each other and their children. But let's not forget that many of those needs are not about sex or the family at all, but are for one's inner self (intellectual challenge, accomplishment, etc) or extend outside (community, etc)

And, let's also not forget that humans are a greedy, competitive lot, and to deny that we also expend considerable amount of time and effort (aka work) keeping up with Jones, or better still besting the Jones, winner take all, is just head in the sand. Lots of people work because they want to be be at the top of the food chain. It would take a lot of logical hijinks to twist it all into "men work to please women".


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Lyris said:


> My husband would work whether or not he was married. He loves his job and it's really important to him that he works hard at something he finds interesting and that he is respected and successful in his field.
> 
> My dad is the same. I'm a bit shocked by a lot of these responses. I thought that having a successful career that you enjoyed and felt made a difference would be more important to more people.
> 
> When I was working full time, I was doing it because I was passionate about my job and what I was accomplishing. It was important to me, regardless of money. I know I did good work and I made a positive difference in a lot of people's lives. When my kids are older, I hope to do that again.


In my experience, the intersection of "jobs that are fulfilling and enjoyable" and "jobs that pay enough to support a family" is very, very small. If your father and husband have both found that kind of work, good for them. When I worked in a field that I enjoyed working in, I realized after a couple of years that I'd never make enough money to support a family, so I changed careers.


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## bailingout (Jan 25, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Also to the women who are either employed or are SAHM's , why do you work so hard?
> Is it not to please your husband and family first and foremost?
> Do you feel appreciated?
> Do you appreciate that your husband works hard?
> ...


From the most simplistic basic level I work/work hard because I am a mentally capable physically able adult who is solely responsible for myself. Not another human or organization on the planet is responsible for my life, my income, my housing, my food...etc etc etc, unless I want to sit back and let the government do it. That is not an option I will accept. 

No I do not work to please my H or family, it is my responsibility as an adult to provide for myself 100% and 50% for my child so long as I am mentally and physically capable. Likewise, IMO my H is responsible for himself 100% and 50% of our child also. To me, anything that is done for each other is a contribution to the other, but it doesn't change our individual responsibilities. 

Do I feel appreciated, absolutely not. Unfortunately I don't think my H and I share the same beliefs (see above paragraph). As time passes, I am beginning to feel that he thinks I am responsible for all 3 of us and that he is not.  

Do I appreciate that he works hard, absolutely, but he doesn't recognize my appreciation because he resents that he has to do it.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

I started paying into SS at the age of twelve.It was what was required if I didn't wish to wear shoes with holes in the soles.
Since nothing was ever given to me then, I assumed that nothing would be given to me, ever.
Therefore, none of the choices fit my situation.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Lyris said:


> The poll needs another option. Something like, "I work because I find my job fulfilling and satisfying and the work I do is meaningful to me in it's own right."


Unhappy Employees Outnumber Happy Ones By Two To One Worldwide - Forbes.com

_"..The vast majority, some 63%, are “not engaged,” meaning they are unhappy but not drastically so. In short, they’re checked out. They sleepwalk through their days, putting little energy into their work.

A full 24% are what Gallup calls “actively disengaged,” meaning they pretty much hate their jobs. They act out and undermine what their coworkers accomplish.
*
Add the last two categories and you get 87% of workers worldwide who, as Gallup puts it, “are emotionally disconnected from their workplaces and less likely to be productive.” In other words, work is more often a source of frustration than one of fulfillment for nearly 90% of the world’s workers*..."_


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Would I be unhappy if I could just invest my money and spend my time managing my investments rather than building a business or career? Hmm, don't know, but I know that being in 1% would go a long way in getting my autistic son the best care possible and I would not have a care about how to pay for my youngest son's private school. Collecting a paycheck in my situation is overrated no matter how much I still enjoy my career.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

drerio said:


> Would I be unhappy if I could just invest my money and spend my time managing my investments rather than building a business or career? Hmm, don't know, but I know that being in 1% would go a long way in getting my autistic son the best care possible and I would not have a care about how to pay for my youngest son's private school. *Collecting a paycheck in my situation is overrated no matter how much I still enjoy my career.*



Catch 22^^^.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If you were a man making $80-$100MM a year, you would get it. It took me nearly 8 years to understand the dynamic but let's just say not one of them did it for women, they did it for admiration and fear from other men and they got it.
> 
> My point being that not all men want money because of women. The guy who said so is flat out wrong.


By the way, I did a little research and the number of Americans who earn over $50 million is something in the range of 100-200 people. So, again, I really don't think they're representative of the vast majority of men.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

What's the point of quoting global statistics? Are there lots of subsistence farmers here? Or Chinese factory workers?

And even if it is only 13% of the worlds employed people who find work fulfilling, that still a sh*t load of people. And as TAM primarily has members from developed countries, I'd say the stats are pretty skewed in favour of that demographic. 

Here are the careers of various men in my immediate circle 
Doctor
University academics - I know several
Activist for global human rights organisation
International business consultant
Travel writer/journalist

That's just off the top of my head. All are interesting, fulfilling careers, apart from the money. All are capable of supporting a family.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Here are the careers of various men in my immediate circle
> Doctor
> University academics - I know several
> Activist for global human rights organisation
> ...


Three of those five -- academics, global human rights work, and travel writer/journalist -- are fields where only a tiny, tiny fraction of the field will earn enough to support a family. I can speak to journalism firsthand -- I started in that field, and I was actually quite good at it -- won local awards in my first year, was quickly offered a job for a better publication (that still paid near poverty wages). I know a lot of people in this field, and very few people these days make a good living in it.

Academics is the same -- most people who go into this field wind up stuck in low-paid, non-tenure-track positions. 

I don't know as much about non-profits, but I've known people who get stuck for years in "internships" and low-paid positions, while only a select few make it to the management-level jobs that actually pay a decent salary.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

She is in Australia, though, John. It might be different there.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I am one of those who is happy in their work, I enjoy what I do and I know that doing what I do allows aircraft to fly safely to and from my island.

Work can be fun too, I've just got back from a weeks training in Brussels, we also sometimes travel to Vienna, Stuttgart and Norway.

These two videos are a cautionary example to show our electricians, who attended the course with us, the inherent dangers in this particular bit of equipment.

I had a go as well, it was amazing to see the water boil due to the current flowing through it.

6.6 amps and up to 5,000 volts, although this example was only a hundred volts or two.


ADB2 - YouTube

ADB1 - YouTube


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Well maybe I know unusually successful people then. A tiny fraction? Really? A tiny fraction of university academics make enough to support a family? Rubbish. Entry level Lecturer A salary is about 60-70 thousand. Lecturer B is 80 - 100,000. Lecturer C is 100,000 - 120,000. It's harder to get to Assoc Professor and Professor, but either B or C will support a family. 

I forgot to add radio producer, teacher, documentary filmmaker.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Well maybe I know unusually successful people then. A tiny fraction? Really? A tiny fraction of university academics make enough to support a family? Rubbish. Entry level Lecturer A salary is about 60-70 thousand. Lecturer B is 80 - 100,000. Lecturer C is 100,000 - 120,000. It's harder to get to Assoc Professor and Professor, but either B or C will support a family.
> 
> I forgot to add radio producer, teacher, documentary filmmaker.


This is all very different in the US.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

The Real Life of a Tenure Track Faculty Person (A Guest Post) | The Professor Is In


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Well maybe I know unusually successful people then. A tiny fraction? Really? A tiny fraction of university academics make enough to support a family? Rubbish. Entry level Lecturer A salary is about 60-70 thousand. Lecturer B is 80 - 100,000. Lecturer C is 100,000 - 120,000. It's harder to get to Assoc Professor and Professor, but either B or C will support a family.
> 
> I forgot to add radio producer, teacher, documentary filmmaker.



Speaking from experience, associate or full professor in a private comprehensive university can support a family but we are talking bare bones survival. We can make it because my wife is a professional, Speech and Language Pathologist. 

I can bring in $3Million grants and publish transcripts in peer-reviewed journals with a moderate impact factor but barely tips the scale in my pay. We are dime a dozen. Once we make too much, they incentivize ways to get rid of us. The next hungry PhD will bring in grants and write transcripts at a lower pay.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

And I have heard that some work is being outsourced to India (correcting papers, for example).


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

jld said:


> And I have heard that some work is being outsourced to India (correcting papers, for example).



Correct my own exam, what I'm doing now; I'm old school. I don't out source or use publisher exams, I take too much pride in the job done right . But sadly it still does not equate to money or security. 

I would never advice anyone to go to graduate school for this life.

ETA: add to it, it is not a respected profession in this country. If a coup happens politicians are the first executed followed by all the academics.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I'll just add crappy employment conditions to horrifying health insurance issues to the reasons I'm glad I was not born in the US then. You people do make amazing television though. And running shoes are so much cheaper. 

Oh the gun thing too. That's a tick in the negative column.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think there is more job protection in other developed countries, plus universal health care. So different from America . . .


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I'll just add crappy employment conditions to horrifying health insurance issues to the reasons I'm glad I was not born in the US then. You people do make amazing television though. And running shoes are so much cheaper.
> 
> Oh the gun thing too. That's a tick in the negative column.



I would have considered moving my family to NZ or Australia but pretty sure they have enough cell and molecular biologist as well as speech and language pathologist. I think I'm too old and why would they want an autistic child in their system. 

Thus again I would sell my soul to be in the 1% for my wife and sons if I were given the opportunity.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

We'd be lucky to have you D. But yes, a doctor's family was recently refused residency because he had a child with autism. Disgraceful and there's been quite an outcry, so hoping the decision will be reversed.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

jld said:


> I think there is more job protection in other developed countries, plus universal health care. So different from America . . .



We had post-doc from Germany in our lab. When she found out how hard it was for us to fight for basic services to help us with our son in the school system, she was appalled. She said I Germany, the disabled are cared for from the cradle to grave with dignity. Yea, don't get me started. I should stop before I offend or cross the line in the discussion in this sub forum. 

Sorry CM, ending my thread jack.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Oh yeah, I've definitely thought about a move to the EU, or to Australia, or something like that, but you know, roots, culture, family, etc. If the German side of my family hadn't left so early, I might try for EU citizenship that way (I think you can get it if you have a grandparent). Actually on of my grandfathers was born in Poland -- would that get me anything?


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

But that just relates back to my original point -- if things like good health insurance, education, job protection, etc. weren't so hard to come by in this country, I'd feel even less drive to work in my grueling career, regardless of the "fear and respect" i'd earn from other men (sorry, still laughing inside at that suggestion).


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

The men's clubhouse... 

The only part of TAM where you can guarantee finding a preponderance of contrary Germaine Greers trying to tell men how they "really" feel ...

:smthumbup:


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Sandfly said:


> The men's clubhouse...
> 
> The only part of TAM where you can guarantee finding a preponderance of contrary Germaine Greers trying to tell men how they "really" feel ...
> 
> :smthumbup:


:lol::rofl:

And of course the ladies say exactly the same thing about most of us men.

Does that make us even?

Both equally blinkered?


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

because I HAVE to


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## Applejuice (Feb 21, 2014)

You missed an option out from the poll:

5. I work to buy my freedom

That is, I was born into a world where I was commercialised from day 1. If I buy 'my' house, I can be evicted from it for not paying a mandatory council tax. I can buy a TV but, in order to watch it, I HAVE to buy a mandatory TV licence. I want to use my electrical appliances but in order to do so, I MUST pay the monopolistic utility providers their predetermined tariff or BUY (using state monopolised currency instruments) domestic scale renewable energy sourcing devices.

In short, I work hard to amass enough money to buy my freedom from exploitative third parties.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Lyris said:


> We'd be lucky to have you D. But yes, a doctor's family was recently refused residency because he had a child with autism. Disgraceful and there's been quite an outcry, so hoping the decision will be reversed.


It was reversed, they're allowed to stay


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

John Lee said:


> By the way, I did a little research and the number of Americans who earn over $50 million is something in the range of 100-200 people. So, again, I really don't think they're representative of the vast majority of men.


Your research skills are abysmal. There are over 170,000 people in Houston that earn $50MM a year with their salaries, nevermind their stock options and bonuses. 

Nevermind the riches of NYC/ Wall Street, San Francisco finance, San Jose tech, Chicago advertising, Boston (beans?), Detroit cars, Dallas more oil money, Seattle tech or Portland Nike. 

100-200 Americans? No.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Your research skills are abysmal. There are over 170,000 people in Houston that earn $50MM a year with their salaries, nevermind their stock options and bonuses.
> 
> Nevermind the riches of NYC/ Wall Street, San Francisco finance, San Jose tech, Chicago advertising, Boston (beans?), Detroit cars, Dallas more oil money, Seattle tech or Portland Nike.


And it looks as if they're overwhelmingly ,
Married.



Not just that, but it also looks like others in their households 
[ wives , husbands ] are also high earners, so the money they make is for their family and kept within their family.




Source ~ Who Are America's Millionaires? | Tax Foundation


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> If you are going to cherry pick my quote then at least explain the context and include the rest of my post. It was in response to a poster who said:
> 
> _*If money wasn't important to women. It wouldn't be important to us. We don't pursue money and power because we give a crap about it. We do it because we know what comes with it.*_
> 
> ...


I feel so misunderstood on TAM sometimes. To be fair you cherry picked my post too. 

What I said was:

I do think there is something to the whole hypergamy thingie. I can clearly remember that after college graduation the guys that didn't land decent jobs, or weren't able to keep up with their peers were traded in by their long term girlfriends for guys that were doing better.

Honestly though I don't think this bothers men. Before we get married we work hard to gain enough income to attract women. *After we get married we bust our a$$ to make sure our families have nothing but the best. *Pretty much everything men do is to attract or keep their woman. If money wasn't important to women. It wouldn't be important to us. We don't pursue money and power because we give a crap about it. We do it because we know what comes with it. 

Yes we pursue money for women, the women that we love and our children. If we could do all of this without money. We really wouldn't give a crap about it.

Regarding your example of gay men. They aren't any different. They want to build a life and provide for the ones they love too.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Your research skills are abysmal. There are over 170,000 people in Houston that earn $50MM a year with their salaries, nevermind their stock options and bonuses.
> 
> Nevermind the riches of NYC/ Wall Street, San Francisco finance, San Jose tech, Chicago advertising, Boston (beans?), Detroit cars, Dallas more oil money, Seattle tech or Portland Nike.
> 
> 100-200 Americans? No.


:rofl:

JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon's TOTAL annual compensation, including stock options/restricted shares/bonus comp, is $20MM. So you are telling me that there are 170,000 people in Houston who earn more than the CEO of the largest bank in the United States? 

You do realize that $50MM means $50 MILLION dollars, right? That's 50 with six more zeros after it. Maybe the men you've been meeting around Houston have been telling you some tall tales.

But just so we don't have a further row about my "research skills," here's the first link that popped up in a google search.

How Many Americans Earn $50 Million a Year? - The Wealth Report - WSJ (it's a few years old but things haven't changed THAT much since the recession).


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

John Lee said:


> :rofl:
> 
> JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon's TOTAL annual compensation, including stock options/restricted shares/bonus comp, is $20MM. So you are telling me that there are 170,000 people in Houston who earn more than the CEO of the largest bank in the United States?
> 
> ...


I think in the link I posted, it was around the same percentage.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

By the way I thought maybe she was mixing up income and net worth, so I checked how many people have net worths of $50 million+, and it's around 80,000 in the entire world. So doesn't look like there are over 100,000 of those people in Houston either.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

John Lee said:


> By the way I thought maybe she was mixing up income and net worth, so I checked how many people have net worths of $50 million+, and it's around 80,000 in the entire world. So doesn't look like there are over 100,000 of those people in Houston either.


A person's income can be calculated by their tax returns.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> A person's income can be calculated by their tax returns.


Right, the first number I gave (the WSJ link) is based on tax returns


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

I work hard because I was too relaxed in my 20s, working jobs that were below my potential. Now that I have mouths to feed, a mortgage, and all that good stuff, I have no idea whether I make enough, not enough, or more than enough. I do remember thinking that I'd never be getting this kind of paycheck and that it was reserved for people born into the right families. At the same time, it's all going towards a (small) house in an expensive area, day care, bills, etc.--my expenses on my own leisure are a fraction of what they were when I was ostensibly broke. There is room for professional growth, so I guess I'll keep working hard for the foreseeable future.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

We have these free doughnuts at the office.....jelly filled. Why else would I work?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> We have these free doughnuts at the office.....jelly filled. Why else would I work?



Ugh, we only serve fruits and carrot sticks. I need new employment


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> We have these free doughnuts at the office.....jelly filled. Why else would I work?


Top Pot?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

drerio said:


> Ugh, we only serve fruits and carrot sticks. I need new employment


We have a weekly staff meeting and everyone gets a turn to choose the treats (and pick them up). My assistant says though that if you don't want to pick up treats, she'll be happy to get carrot sticks.


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

One thing that was not an option in the poll but I know applies to me at least.


For the dignity and sense off well being that seeing the fruits of your labor bring.

In my experience we appreciate things more if we have had to work for them.


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## Tess112 (Mar 9, 2014)

I'm not a guy, but I think I'm capable of answering for my fiance. 

I believe it is because he a) enjoys it and b) wants to provide the finer things in life for me and our daughter.


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