# Must read: UBT: “I wish I could take it all back”



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

UBT: “I wish I could take it all back”

March 8, 2016 by @chumplady

When a cheater apologizes, it can seem awfully churlish not to accept their “sorry.” After ****ing around, at last they’re owning it! Chump hearts swell, a little waft of hopium hits the neurotransmitters, and you begin to wonder, “Maybe I was mistaken? Maybe I’m being a bit cold-hearted? Maybe there’s a chance for us?”

Oh, pretty, pretty words.

AKA sent this email from her cheater to be fed to the Universal Bull**** Translator.

*Dear AKA,
I’m terribly sorry for what I’ve done to you. I have destroyed any trust you could have in me. My actions have been selfish and self-serving and I’ve hurt you in an irreparable way. I wish I would have made different choices and I would take it all back if I could. You’re justified in feeling the way you do and there’s probably no point in trying to explain or rationalize why I did what I’ve done or the lies that I’ve told you. As you mention, it would only be self-rationalization and self-preservation. Ultimately, I made selfish and reckless choices and you are paying the price for them. I wish I could take them all back, but that’s impossible. You are a sweet, sensitive, generous person that deserves much better than the way I’ve treated you. I have and do love you, though. We’ve shared many beautiful times and a lot of love, though its been terribly flawed on my part. I hope that we could share more beautiful times and enrich our love for each other. However, I will honor your wishes and move all my stuff out and leave you alone if that’s what you want and/or need. Regardless of what you decide in this regard, I am breaking it off with the other woman and will tell the rest of my family what happened between us. I hope that we might be able to heal the wounds I’ve caused you and that we could walk side by side together, truly, honestly and with empathy, as partners. I love you, CHEATER.*

What do you think, Chump Lady? Did he cut and paste this from his Cheater Handbook?

Thanks, AKA

Dear AKA,

After much hand-wringing, subtly minimizes himself as “flawed”? Check.

Demonstrates his respect for your no contact with a misty-water-colored-memory-filled entreaty to take him back? Check.

Parrots buzzwords that have meaning to people with empathy synapses? (Words such as “empathy” and “honestly”?) Check.

Yeah, sounds pretty playbook to me. Let’s check with the UBT.

(read the rest here)


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Dear me! That's so full of sweetness that I was worried it would trigger my Type 2 Diabetes!

Then I realised it was artificial sweetener and that I was OK, though in danger of vomiting.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Dear me! That's so full of sweetness that I was worried it would trigger my Type 2 Diabetes!
> 
> Then I realised it was artificial sweetener and that I was OK, though in danger of vomiting.


I love this line:

* I have and do love you, though*.

_Which I’ve demonstrated by cheating on you and violating your boundaries._
@chumplady has a way of piercing though the bullsh!t of flowery words, doesnt she? >


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I love this line:
> 
> * I have and do love you, though*.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:


This is another good one from the article:

* I hope that we might be able to heal the wounds I’ve caused you and that we could walk side by side together, truly, honestly and with empathy, as partners.*

_If I was truthful, honest, and had empathy, I wouldn’t cheat on you. But I need a (partner)chump._

She does have a way with words doesn't she? lol


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Yep, love Chumplady. 
_"I hope that we might be able to heal the wounds I’ve caused you and that we could walk side by side together, truly, honestly and with empathy, as partners.
_
Aw shucks. Almost brought a tear to my eye". 

My reply to WS would be:
_"Ahem! I thought we WERE walking side by side together, truly, honestly & with empathy as partners. Silly me. 
And btw, your poetry sucks. Hang on to your day job." _


PS The post title, "Wish I could take it all back".
My reply to that one, "You can't". 
........


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I got one very similar to that on the early days, lol.....actions are what count, not pretty letters

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

********** said:


> Yep, love Chumplady.
> _"I hope that we might be able to heal the wounds I’ve caused you and that we could walk side by side together, truly, honestly and with empathy, as partners.
> _
> Aw shucks. Almost brought a tear to my eye".
> ...


The WS in this case was almost a poet after being caught wasn't he?  

"Wish I could take it all back" - hmm when did you make the wish after the first, second, twelfth, twentieth time you slept with your AP...I'd like to know the precise moment...

The whole "walking side by side" thing is precious - well we were walking side by side until you took several breaks to go screw your affair partner..how many times was that again?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I got one very similar to that on the early days, lol.....actions are what count, not pretty letters
> 
> Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


Sappy letters are meaningless...and even wiht all the right actions the WS can't undo what they have done or save the marriage in a lot of cases...a letter like this also shows me the WS loves the drama..loves being at the center of the drama...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@********** This was another great entry:

*You’re justified in feeling the way you do and there’s probably no point in trying to explain or rationalize why I did what I’ve done or the lies that I’ve told you.
*
_You’re justified in your completely irrational desire to be done with me, but I know better. Okay you have your feelings. I could go to the trouble to make up some new bullsh!t, but why? It sucks to be me! You lie to a person a few thousand times and one day that sh!t doesn’t work any more._

In between all the pretty words the WS here is admitting to giving up on further lies because they will no longer work....:wtf:


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Actually, I think it is a matter of perspective. At no time, following my wife's affair, did I ever want to "punish" her, demean her, or in any way, wish her ill. After D-day, I received letters, phone messages, etc, almost every day from her , like this. To some posters , who are filled with hate and disdain, they would look through a letter like this and pick out all of the faults. When I received them, I looked through them and picked out the areas where she was telling the truth , and trying to improve herself. But, that's just me. 
The old saying is that "Rome wasn't built in a Day" A WS doesn't get to the point of being an FWS without some stumbles along the way. Right or wrong , in the case of infidelity, isn't as important as , trying or not trying.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, I think it is a matter of perspective. At no time, following my wife's affair, did I ever want to "punish" her, demean her, or in any way, wish her ill. After D-day, I received letters, phone messages, etc, almost every day from her , like this. To some posters , who are filled with hate and disdain, they would look through a letter like this and pick out all of the faults. When I received them, I looked through them and picked out the areas where she was telling the truth , and trying to improve herself. But, that's just me.
> The old saying is that "Rome wasn't built in a Day" A WS doesn't get to the point of being an FWS without some stumbles along the way. Right or wrong , in the case of infidelity, isn't as important as , trying or not trying.


interesting perspective Rookie, so tell me why do you think you weren't ultimately able to R with your XW?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Speaking as a formerly Disloyal Spouse, here's my interpretation:



> I’m terribly sorry for what I’ve done to you. I have destroyed any trust you could have in me.


"You COULD just trust me, but you don't... boohoo!"



> My actions have been selfish and self-serving and I’ve hurt you in an irreparable way.


"Me...me...me... I broke the toy I like to play with and I can't fix it." Note that it is all focused on the disloyal, and there's very little empathy. 



> I wish I would have made different choices and I would take it all back if I could.


"I wish I hadn't been caught, but since I was, I'm sad." Here's the thing--do not EVER, EVER tell someone "I'll make it up to you" or "I would take it back" because that literally can not be done. What occurred occurred and that moment will never exist again. It's gone, it's past, and the opportunity to use it for love has slipped away and will not return. 



> You’re justified in feeling the way you do and there’s probably no point in trying to explain or rationalize why I did what I’ve done or the lies that I’ve told you. As you mention, it would only be self-rationalization and self-preservation.


"You won't listen to the excuses and justifications I made, and you won't accept the blameshifting and gaslighting. Well it couldn't possibly be MY FAULT so I guess I just give up." 



> Ultimately, I made selfish and reckless choices and you are paying the price for them. I wish I could take them all back, but that’s impossible.


This is the closest the letter comes to empathy and stating the truth. See above regarding "taking it back." 



> You are a sweet, sensitive, generous person that deserves much better than the way I’ve treated you.


Okay the disloyal mentions some qualities about the loyal spouse... but I personally always take umbrage when people say "you deserve much better" or say "I deserve someone better than this." Seriously? No one "deserves" anything! No one deserves to be abused, and no one deserves to be treated like a king or queen. We are ADULTS people, and we make CHOICES...and we live with both the benefits of and costs of our CHOICES. That is what we "deserve." 

Furthermore, no action someone else makes "deserves" X, Y or Z reaction! Some people are abused and are not abusive back. Some people are treated like a king or queen and are jerks back. If our spouse treats us badly, that doesn't mean they "deserve" us to treat them badly BACK.  Treating someone badly is ALWAYS, ALWAYS a choice and the person who acted badly is personally responsible for choosing that. [/soapbox]



> I have and do love you, though.


No you don't. At best you are afraid of losing your spouse and maybe have some sort of warm squishy feelings. Love is a CHOICE to treat the other person in a loving way. You did not act in a way that was "loving" therefore that can not be called "love."



> We’ve shared many beautiful times and a lot of love, though its been terribly flawed on my part.


"You made me happy in the past, so can't you just ignore this and make me happy again?"



> I hope that we could share more beautiful times and enrich our love for each other. However, I will honor your wishes and move all my stuff out and leave you alone if that’s what you want and/or need.


"Me...me...me...I want! But if you're going to be a stick in the ground about this, I guess I'll slink away and make you feel guilty for forcing me to live with the cost of my choice."



> Regardless of what you decide in this regard, I am breaking it off with the other woman and will tell the rest of my family what happened between us.


"I'm hoping if I do this, that you might be able to sweep all this right under the rug, so here's a gesture that will hurt ME but I'll just grit my teeth and then we can go back to the way it was."



> I hope that we might be able to heal the wounds I’ve caused you and that we could walk side by side together, truly, honestly and with empathy, as partners. I love you, CHEATER.


"I...I...I...I .... I don't want to lose my Plan B and I was hoping my flowery words would convince you to stop making me endure the consequences because they hurt. I want to keep using you for what I want." Signed CHEATER.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@Affaircare - well written and perceptive - *AS USUAL*.....:grin2:

The WH who wrote that letter come across to me as a man who just wants to get away with it..nothing more..


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> interesting perspective Rookie, so tell me why do you think you weren't ultimately able to R with your XW?


Simple, TS, I wasn't in love with her anymore.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

To amplify, I was no longer in love with her. While I truly appreciated her efforts, I was not able to reconnect with her as much as a husband should . If I had stayed with her, even though I didn't love her...what would that have said about me? Dishonesty and recovering from it is the whole point, isn't it? And, if you have followed my story, you know that she and I and everybody else tried as hard as humanly possible to rebuild the relationship, but My heart simply was unable to love her again.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Simple, TS, I wasn't in love with her anymore.


So it was the affair that ruined your love for her? Do you think you have recovered from her betrayal or does it effect your current relationship?

If the affair did ruin your love for her I 100% understand..I'd be curious to hear about your thought process...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> To amplify, I was no longer in love with her. While I truly appreciated her efforts, I was not able to reconnect with her as much as a husband should . If I had stayed with her, even though I didn't love her...what would that have said about me? Dishonesty and recovering from it is the whole point, isn't it? And, if you have followed my story, you know that she and I and everybody else tried as hard as humanly possible to rebuild the relationship, but My heart simply was unable to love her again.


Given the fact that you have kids..it took courage to walk away...real courage to jump into the unknown...


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## Homer j (Jan 6, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Speaking as a formerly Disloyal Spouse, here's my interpretation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So as a WS to a WS, what would you have written? I have written and told my BS many things similar to this and meant every one of them with every fabric of my being.

I've refrained from posting in this thread as the sense I get is that once you have cheated, that is it. Once a cheater always a cheater. 

What a bunch of crap. To tell me that I've done it once, I'm just going to do it again is stupid. People learn from their mistakes. Yes it was the most horrible mistake I could have ever made, but it's not going to ever happen again.

If you are trying to tell me that since I cheated once I'm doomed to repeat myself I might as well go play in traffic, cause I know I'm not going to go thru this again.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Homer j said:


> What a bunch of crap. To tell me that I've done it once, I'm just going to do it again is stupid. People learn from their mistakes. Yes it was the most horrible mistake I could have ever made, but it's not going to ever happen again.
> 
> If you are trying to tell me that since I cheated once I'm doomed to repeat myself I might as well go play in traffic, cause I know I'm not going to go thru this again.


Nope not at all..I know that is not what @Affaircare thinks or I think...the point is the sentiments expressed in this letter in the shadow of dday are just words..nothing else...and the BS is rightly skeptical of such flowery letters....

The lesson is you CAN'T take it back..ever..so we should all think before we speak or act...


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I love this line:
> 
> * I have and do love you, though*.
> 
> ...


Cheaters really do not like CL. She can see right through them and I have seen no one who can compete with her intelligence and wit among the cheaters who have attempted to take her on.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, I think it is a matter of perspective. At no time, following my wife's affair, did I ever want to "punish" her, demean her, or in any way, wish her ill. After D-day, I received letters, phone messages, etc, almost every day from her , like this. To some posters , who are filled with hate and disdain, they would look through a letter like this and pick out all of the faults. When I received them, I looked through them and picked out the areas where she was telling the truth , and trying to improve herself. But, that's just me.
> The old saying is that "Rome wasn't built in a Day" A WS doesn't get to the point of being an FWS without some stumbles along the way. Right or wrong , in the case of infidelity, isn't as important as , trying or not trying.


Well,with work,you may be able to overcome this naivety.you have a good heart,but this attitude,IMO,can get you hurt.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Given the fact that you have kids..it took courage to walk away...real courage to jump into the unknown...


No, TS, my kids were already grown , when my wife's affair took place. We were in our early 40's.
What her affair did, we free me to begin to date other women. After that, I met somebody else. As far as permanent damage to me, not so much, because my GF is a super woman.:grin2::grin2:


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Homer j said:


> So as a WS to a WS, what would you have written? I have written and told my BS many things similar to this and meant every one of them with every fabric of my being.
> 
> I've refrained from posting in this thread as the sense I get is that once you have cheated, that is it. Once a cheater always a cheater.
> 
> ...


Your spouse already knows,on some level,that you do not love her enough to refrain from cheating. Your actions have proven that. If that is okay with your spouse,fine.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> No, TS, my kids were already grown , when my wife's affair took place. We were in our early 40's.
> What her affair did, we free me to begin to date other women. After that, I met somebody else. As far as permanent damage to me, not so much, because my GF is a super woman.:grin2::grin2:


Hmmm..so you are saying what your wife did has not effected how you approach your current relationship? Do you do anything differently?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Well,with work,you may be able to overcome this naivety.you have a good heart,but this attitude,IMO,can get you hurt.


It's called maturity. It isn't being naive to give somebody the benefit of the doubt, or to realize that there is no such thing as a perfect human. A mature person takes life as it is, and makes something good out of it. The immature, rant, whine and snarl, and do nothing useful. Don't be like that. As far as your silly, snarky, personal comments. You would do well to look in the Archive for my past story, because , as it stands now, you know absolutely zilch and are making a fool of yourself.


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## Homer j (Jan 6, 2016)

Maxo said:


> Your spouse already knows,on some level,that you do not love her enough to refrain from cheating. Your actions have proven that. If that is okay with your spouse,fine.


So like I said. You are labeling me a cheater forever. Doomed to repeat my actions. Never learning or growing from my mistakes. Never becoming a safe partner,etc.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> It's called maturity. It isn't being naive to give somebody the benefit of the doubt, or to realize that there is no such thing as a perfect human. A mature person takes life as it is, and makes something good out of it. The immature, rant, whine and snarl, and do nothing useful. Don't be like that. As far as your silly, snarky, personal comments. You would do well to look in the Archive for my past story, because , as it stands now, you know absolutely zilch and are making a fool of yourself.


 Indeed,you sound very mature. I have read your story,already.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Homer j said:


> So like I said. You are labeling me a cheater forever. Doomed to repeat my actions. Never learning or growing from my mistakes. Never becoming a safe partner,etc.


Well,your spouse knows she is Plan B. Perhaps she is okay with that. Some people are and that is their absolute perogative.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Hmmm..so you are saying what your wife did has not effected how you approach your current relationship? Do you do anything differently?


Not much. One of the major underlying causes for my wife's affair was my job, but since I took early retirement, I'm home a lot more than before. PLus I don't need any more money, so that is no longer an issue. My GF is much more independent-minded and way more exciting, so I don't have to be the only one doing any thinking. You remember that my ex wife had serious anger management issues. Other than that, I do my best to enjoy life, much, much, more.:smile2::smile2:


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Indeed,you sound very mature. I have read your story,already.


No you haven't. If you had, you wouldn't be talking like this. Don't try bullsh*tting the bull. Just man up and admit you are wrong. It really isn't hard, I can do it, so can you:smile2:


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Not much. One of the major underlying causes for my wife's affair was my job, but since I took early retirement, I'm home a lot more than before. PLus I don't need any more money, so that is no longer an issue. My GF is much more independent-minded and way more exciting, so I don't have to be the only one doing any thinking. You remember that my ex wife had serious anger management issues. Other than that, I do my best to enjoy life, much, much, more.:smile2::smile2:


x
Those pesky jobs, always causing cheating. Bet she liked the $$,though.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> No you haven't. If you had, you wouldn't be talking like this. Don't try bullsh*tting the bull. Just man up and admit you are wrong. It really isn't hard, I can do it, so can you:smile2:


I will take a poly on it,if you would agree to a wager.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> x
> Those pesky jobs, always causing cheating. Bet she liked the $$,though.


Well, until she cheated, and with some obvious exceptions, she was a fairly good wife. Though I have to say she was much better as a mother. She was always fiercely protective of the kids, a good looking woman, but her f*cking temper was off the charts.:grin2::grin2: If you had read my story (which you said you did) you would already know this.
S


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, until she cheated, and with some obvious exceptions, she was a fairly good wife. Though I have to say she was much better as a mother. She was always fiercely protective of the kids, a good looking woman, but her f*cking temper was off the charts.:grin2::grin2: If you had read my story (which you said you did) you would already know this.
> S


I read it quite some time ago.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Not much. One of the major underlying causes for my wife's affair was my job, but since I took early retirement, I'm home a lot more than before. PLus I don't need any more money, so that is no longer an issue. My GF is much more independent-minded and way more exciting, so I don't have to be the only one doing any thinking. You remember that my ex wife had serious anger management issues. Other than that, I do my best to enjoy life, much, much, more.:smile2::smile2:


I do remember that..and your brief R starting on Christmas Eve I believe...how do your kids get along with your GF? How does your XW get along with her? Do you plan on ever marrying again? If not was it becuase of your XW's infidelity?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I do remember that..and your brief R starting on Christmas Eve I believe...how do your kids get along with your GF? How does your XW get along with her? Do you plan on ever marrying again? If not was it becuase of your XW's infidelity?


My kids get along with her great. They don't see her as any sort of a "replacement mom" but like her a lot as a friend. EW and her are actually good friends, now that my ex has stopped trying to get back together with me. As far as marriage goes, probably not. There really isn't any reason to. Each of us have our own money and insurance, etc. We are living together and having a lot of fun doing it, so why rock the boat? LOL The cheating hasn't really been a factor.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> My kids get along with her great. They don't see her as any sort of a "replacement mom" but like her a lot as a friend. EW and her are actually good friends, now that my ex has stopped trying to get back together with me. As far as marriage goes, probably not. There really isn't any reason to. Each of us have our own money and insurance, etc. We are living together and having a lot of fun doing it, so why rock the boat? LOL The cheating hasn't really been a factor.


Pretty much my situatin,as well,although we each have our own place and my girlfriend has no contact with my XW. My kids love my GF,we travel a lot,Good life. No interest from either of us in marrying.


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## Homer j (Jan 6, 2016)

Maxo said:


> Well,your spouse knows she is Plan B. Perhaps she is okay with that. Some people are and that is their absolute perogative.


You still haven't answered my question. So you are saying someone who has an A is doomed to repeat thier mistakes, can never be trusted,etc. Simple question, yes or no?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Cheaters really do not like CL. She can see right through them and I have seen no one who can compete with her intelligence and wit among the cheaters who have attempted to take her on.


No they don't..she cuts right through their bullsh!t...and does so wiht a tremendous amount of humor...


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## Homer j (Jan 6, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Nope not at all..I know that is not what @Affaircare thinks or I think...the point is the sentiments expressed in this letter in the shadow of dday are just words..nothing else...and the BS is rightly skeptical of such flowery letters....
> 
> The lesson is you CAN'T take it back..ever..so we should all think before we speak or act...



Sorry TS missed this reply. In the wake of my dday all I said was I'm sorry. I was sorry, but didn't know what else to say that could possibly do anything. So in the short aftermath of dday I agree with you. It takes some time to truly get the whole picture of what we as WS have done. I don't think I said I love you for a few months. Neither did she. We started with, I care about you, which is true. It's still true today.

Thank you for this. I had forgotten that is how we were communicating. I can use this now to fill the void during our D. I need and want to tell her something, but I love you can't be what I say. Thank you again!


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Homer j said:


> Once a cheater always a cheater.
> 
> What a bunch of crap. To tell me that I've done it once, I'm just going to do it again is stupid. People learn from their mistakes. Yes it was the most horrible mistake I could have ever made, but it's not going to ever happen again.


Yes, It's a bunch of crap. Some cheaters will cheat again, many will not. 

Get that "Once a cheater always a cheater" thought out of your head. Ignore that other people say - it is just their opinion and their way of coping as the BS. If you believe that you will cheat again, you WILL make that happen.

I have read your posts. I know YOU will not cheat again.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Homer j said:


> Sorry TS missed this reply. In the wake of my dday all I said was I'm sorry. I was sorry, but didn't know what else to say that could possibly do anything. So in the short aftermath of dday I agree with you. It takes some time to truly get the whole picture of what we as WS have done. I don't think I said I love you for a few months. Neither did she. We started with, I care about you, which is true. It's still true today.
> 
> Thank you for this. I had forgotten that is how we were communicating. I can use this now to fill the void during our D. I need and want to tell her something, but I love you can't be what I say. Thank you again!


"Once a cheater always a cheater" is proven false everyday but it has to be proven...with actions..you seem to want to change..I've read your posts here and on sI and you really seem to be trying everyday..in other words you are putting in the WORK...

I'd like to add that the tone and wording of the letter inthe article once again puts the WH at the center of everything and not his BW...

I wish you the best...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Homer j said:


> Sorry TS missed this reply. In the wake of my dday all I said was I'm sorry. I was sorry, but didn't know what else to say that could possibly do anything. So in the short aftermath of dday I agree with you. It takes some time to truly get the whole picture of what we as WS have done. I don't think I said I love you for a few months. Neither did she. We started with, I care about you, which is true. It's still true today.
> 
> Thank you for this. I had forgotten that is how we were communicating. I can use this now to fill the void during our D. I need and want to tell her something, but I love you can't be what I say. Thank you again!


This post is an example of what I was saying in my post, that you have to start somewhere. Nobody...and I mean ...nobody is going to say or do exactly the right thing, first crack out of the box. Is this letter bogus? Of course it is. Most of it is patronizing and disrespectful....but it's a start. Is it as good as it needs to be? Of course not. But can anybody say honestly that they ever did or said anything perfect, the first time? 
Just like you and your spouse. Saying "I care about you" is nowhere near as good as saying "I love you" but it's a baby step in the right direction. You can do just as much damage by being super critical, as you can by being too accepting. The best tools you have are patience, and your knowledge of the situation. My advice is to take it easy, work at a pace that suits both parties, and wait to see if the results are what you want. There is no time limit on R or D.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> There is no time limit on R or D.


Agreed.. @Homer j keep working on you and stop being fatalistic...I have that habit too..its not a good one...


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Homer j said:


> You still haven't answered my question. So you are saying someone who has an A is doomed to repeat thier mistakes, can never be trusted,etc. Simple question, yes or no?


Personally, I would never trust the person again, much like I would not turn a rescue dog over to Michael Vick.
Will he re-offend? Maybe not, but I think his motivation is not due to loyalty and devotion but due to fear of consequences. Who wants a spouse whose only motivation for remaining loyal is fear of consequences or coercion? Again, this is merely my opinion. I cannot prove any of it.


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## Homer j (Jan 6, 2016)

Understand, and I agree if you have to threaten your spouse to behave or else then you don't need them.

In my case on dday I gave her everything she wanted, she then went to a friend's house for the afternoon to decide what she wanted to do. Not one time did she ever say do this, or I will D, etc.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

People can change. It is just once I was hurt so badly by this, Iam very risk averse. Much like you feel we , as BSs, can never know what it is like to be a cheater( unless we go there, ourselves), I feel that someone that has not been through this betrayal cannot envision what it is really like.
Our reactions and the experience varies from BS to BS, but, if you ever get a chance to read Susan Anderson's " Journey from Abandonment to Healing" it explains why folks with a particular history are affected much more adversely.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Homer j said:


> So as a WS to a WS, what would you have written? I have written and told my BS many things similar to this and meant every one of them with every fabric of my being.


 @homerj, what's really interesting is that I did think about this when I wrote my response! In many ways, what the person wrote --that is to say "the word choices" were sweet words and/or a fine gesture. It's not particularly the words chosen. 

The problem, as I see it, is that is it "words" and words are hot air puffed past a vocal chord...or black squiggles on a white background. They are not actions. And even the words that were chosen show focus still on "me...me...me...I...I...I", show a lack of real empathy, and show very subtle attempts at rugsweeping and guilt. Thus, the words themselves have no fault, but they seem dis-ingenuous. 

When I was in this position, and I was reconciling with my Dear Hubby after I cheated on him, I didn't write to him. Instead I DID things and if he noticed, yay, but if he didn't that was fine with me too. Also, I was very afraid of being honest and open, but I did it anyway when it was scary and I think that helped him to see that if I could be honest when it was hard, chances were greater that I could also be honest when it was easier. Make sense? If he was considering "odds" (and he probably was because that's the way he thinks) then my plan was to give him actions that increased the odds. 



> I've refrained from posting in this thread as the sense I get is that once you have cheated, that is it. Once a cheater always a cheater.


I have to admit I also get a feeling of monkey piling on the disloyals myself--the generalizations are a bit out of hand. I mean after all, we could generalize and say "all loyals abused their spouses before the affair" and it would not be well-received, even if statistically that statement might be accurate. [Edited to add: I DO NOT think it is statistically accurate...that is a "EVEN IF" statement  ] What I've learned though is that when there is a sting, that usually is an indication that the reason it stings is because there's a ring of truth in there! So when something stings, that's when I've trained myself to stop and examine "That hurt--why did I take it personally?" and I look at myself to find out why that pushed a button. Okay I get it, sometimes loyals can get a bit "zealous" but the endless finger-pointing doesn't cure or change anything. Looking at MYSELF does change me and "cure" me.



> What a bunch of crap. To tell me that I've done it once, I'm just going to do it again is stupid. People learn from their mistakes. Yes it was the most horrible mistake I could have ever made, but it's not going to ever happen again.
> 
> If you are trying to tell me that since I cheated once I'm doomed to repeat myself I might as well go play in traffic, cause I know I'm not going to go thru this again.


Ah but here's the thing: are you going to "not go through this again" because you've thoroughly examined yourself and internally changed who you are and how you think and feel? Or are you going to "not go through this again" because the cost was so high that you're like a kid who put his hand on the hot burner? 

And by the way, I ask that sincerely, @homerj, not rhetorically. You and I have spoken back and forth, and I do believe you are in the process of having a transformation, so I'm not thinking poorly of you here. What you and I and folks like @EI and @LosingHim have to understand is that for every 100 disloyal spouses out there, there are 4 of us (let me say that again... 4) who have figured it out and done the hard work to face ourselves and grow. That means there are 96 who continued on with their affair OR refused to look at themselves and change how they think and act!! It makes sense that most loyals are "zealous" because 96/100 have to face a disloyal who doesn't even say "I'll never do that again!" For the few of us who do, even then like I said some are never doing that again because like a kid who touched the hot burner, the cost TO THEM was too painful (there's still the lack of empathy/real change). So those who won't do it again and also go to counseling for a couple years to change are super few and far between. 

Furthermore, I can honestly say I am very confident I won't cheat again, but I guard against it CONSTANTLY. It's been seven years now, but I know where I'm weak and don't put myself in that position...AND I also know that I don't yet know all that life is going to throw at me! My Dear Hubby is ill but not on his death bed. If he were to be on his death bed I do not know how I would handle that. But what I DO know is that I need to not be too proud to ask for help and I need to keep facing my own self and "how I'm doing."


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

As much as I appreciate CL (and we have e-mailed each other a few times, as I was just about her first poster 4 years or so ago), I think she stretched on this one a bit. I would have appreciated an apology and ownership like that letter from my XW. I can see no real artifice or self serving stuff in it.


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## Homer j (Jan 6, 2016)

AC...Ty for the clarification. That makes sense. 

While yes, I do not want to feel this pain myself (who would?). I see what this has done to my wife. I couldn't stand to be in a room with myself seeing someone go thru this again. Knowing I caused all thier pain. That I could've stopped it, and didn't. 

I understand the loss. My D has slapped me with it. My eyes are wide open now. Nothing is innocent. Nothing can be pawned off as its OK. Everything matters. Every moment with your spouse, gf, room mate, whatever you call each other.

I never used to understand the people that "live in the moment", do no planning and expect it to all work out. I don't agree with that philosophy, and couldn't do it myself, but I do understand it. If they can make it work and are happy, then who am I to judge. Those are the people that at the end of a journey can honestly say they held nothing back. Lived it all. That's something to be admired I think. I wish I would've done that with my wife these last 20 years.

I won't make that mistake again. Even if I do get hurt. Living in B&W isn't all its cracked up to be. We have to live in color.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@homerj

One thing that has helped me tremendously is that I remind myself every single day that my infidelity was the automatic end to my marriage. If I got what I deserved, he'd say and do exactly what your wife is doing. But my Dear Hubby is a man of grace! Every day could be the day that ends it all and Dear Hubby chooses to walk away, but every day, he chooses to not do that. 

Thus, every day that he chooses to stay is a gift. 

It's not altogether "living in color" because I honestly believe that making life-changing decisions based only on emotion is unwise! But, if I wake up each morning and think of Dear Hubby as someone who has voluntarily committed to me, yet in real life he's not my possession or something I'll just "have forever"--it changes the way you interact during the day. Each day I am aware it could be the day he chooses to be done. Or he could choose to cheat himself. And thus, each day, I consciously think of him and what his love language is and how he prefers to be shown love. In other words, this day..today...I have the privilege of getting to know him intimately enough to love him well! 

It's not so "in the moment" that it's literally moment by moment, but it does help bring in some color to the black and white of "married/not married" or "in love/not in love". Make sense?


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## Homer j (Jan 6, 2016)

Absolutely


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Maxo said:


> As much as I appreciate CL (and we have e-mailed each other a few times, as I was just about her first poster 4 years or so ago), I think she stretched on this one a bit. I would have appreciated an apology and ownership like that letter from my XW. I can see no real artifice or self serving stuff in it.


Im not sure I agree..this letter had a lot of me me me me me in it...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Im not sure I agree..this letter had a lot of me me me me me in it...


Sure it did, TS, but maybe the next one will have more we, we, we, or you, you, you, in it. Who knows? I disagree strongly with those posters who demonize the WS, even when they are making an effort. EI was not a truly remorseful WS when she first came here, but she plugged away, until she got it right. And she took a LOT of hits and criticism from BS's.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Sure it did, TS, but maybe the next one will have more we, we, we, or you, you, you, in it. Who knows?


Perhaps..but the Bs is absolutely 100% correct to be skeptical of such flowery letters...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Perhaps..but the Bs is absolutely 100% correct to be skeptical of such flowery letters...


There is a huge difference between healthy skepticism and blanket condemnation.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> There is a huge difference between healthy skepticism and blanket condemnation.


How about taking the letter tossing it and starting over...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Rookie4

I think I get what you're saying: a person has to start "somewhere" so why demonize this letter. They were "trying". And in some ways I agree with you--there was an attempt made. 

BUT a) we don't know if there are any actions to back up any of the puffs of warm air or squiggly lines, and b) the puffs and squiggles did indicate a selfish focus, a lack of empathy, and a very subtle attempt to rugsweep and reverse victim order by guilting the loyal (is guilt a verb?). 

So when someone is first a disloyal, they may be focused on themselves, and they may lack some empathy because they are hurting themselves, and they may not want to face the consequences at first. I know I didn't, and EI didn't and LosingHim didn't... But what we're saying is that to be a truly reformed, former, recovered disloyal (if you will) there has to be a demonstration of some things fairly early on:
1) the ability to take the focus off "me" as the center of the universe and put the focus on "you"
2) the ability to have some fairly accurate empathy for what "you" might be thinking and feeling
3) the ability to take personal responsibility and face myself and where I was WRONG. 

For me, the moment I "saw" my Dear Hubby and the pain in his face, the focus wasn't on "but I liked this and it made me feel good" anymore. From that moment, even though I was not in his skin, I was able to hear him tell me what he was experiencing and have a soft heart toward HIM. And from that moment, I knew that I had not cheated "because he blahblahblah..." Yes, there were circumstances that lead step-by-step crossing small boundaries to vulnerability to unfaithfulness. But the responsibility for adultery was MINE. Whatever happened as a consequence was MINE. And I knew, within I'd say about a day of "seeing" the pain on his face that part of my reformation had to be ME looking at ME and changing ME utterly. He can choose to change or not as he decides, but that is not my issue. 

So yep, we really do not know all the facts, nor do we know if this writer has backed up the letter with actions. But based on what we do know... this letter seems flowery but disingenuous to me. Is it a "step one"? (Shrug) Not sure, maybe, but I'm not seeing promising first steps here.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Homer j said:


> So as a WS to a WS, what would you have written? I have written and told my BS many things similar to this and meant every one of them with every fabric of my being.
> 
> I've refrained from posting in this thread as the sense I get is that once you have cheated, that is it. Once a cheater always a cheater.
> 
> ...


The point of all of this pushback is that the letter was clearly self-serving, and not at all an attempt to make things better for the person that was betrayed. 

And if that's the kind of letter you wrote to your betrayed spouse, that's what you did.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Homer j said:


> So like I said. You are labeling me a cheater forever. Doomed to repeat my actions. Never learning or growing from my mistakes. Never becoming a safe partner,etc.


You may have learned your lessons. You may have grown. You may believe you'll never repeat your actions. You may believe that you're safe. 

And you might even be right. 

The simple fact is that all of that is for you. And none of it takes anything away from the scars you've left on the soul of the one you've done it to. 

I'm glad you've grown. That's great. For you.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> @Rookie4
> 
> I think I get what you're saying: a person has to start "somewhere" so why demonize this letter. They were "trying". And in some ways I agree with you--there was an attempt made.
> 
> ...


Hi, AC. I can only go by my own experiences, so I'm willing to admit to other interpretations, but after my wife's affair, I receive scores of letters and messages (because I wouldn't answer her calls) some of them (at first) as selfish as this one, but others that showed real growth in her thinking.. I learned, to be discriminating, and pick out those places where she was demonstrating real empathy, and those places where she was trying to schmooze me. Our reconciliation didn't work, but she improved in her actions and words steadily, until now, she is a very worthy person. A forest can grow from a single sprout, but not if you don't give it a chance to grow. If it grows straight and tall, great. If it grows crooked you can always cut it down later.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Hi, AC. I can only go by my own experiences, so I'm willing to admit to other interpretations, but after my wife's affair, I receive scores of letters and messages (because I wouldn't answer her calls) some of them (at first) as selfish as this one, but others that showed real growth in her thinking.. I learned, to be discriminating, and pick out those places where she was demonstrating real empathy, and those places where she was trying to schmooze me. Our reconciliation didn't work, but she improved in her actions and words steadily, until now, she is a very worthy person. A forest can grow from a single sprout, but not if you don't give it a chance to grow. If it grows straight and tall, great. If it grows crooked you can always cut it down later.


Is your XW in a new relationship or does she still harbor dreams of a reconciliation? Do you think she is still jealous?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes, she is, and no she doesn't, now. She did, before she entered her new relationship, but now, she is an extremely loyal partner. I am very happy for her.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Yes, she is, and no she doesn't, now. She did, before she entered her new relationship, but now, she is an extremely loyal partner. I am very happy for her.


is she remarried?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Im not sure I agree..this letter had a lot of me me me me me in it...


Yes,but I see nothing really wrongwith a lot of me,provided it is in the context of accepting blame,which it was.
In fact,a lot of you,you,you is used by cheaters assigning blame to the BS. So,to me,a lot of me,me etc.is no big deal.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Yes,but I see nothing really wrongwith a lot of me,provided it is in the context of accepting blame,which it was.
> In fact,a lot of you,you,you is used by cheaters assigning blame to the BS. So,to me,a lot of me,me etc.is no big deal.


I guess we just interpreted the letter differently..I viewed t as a "look at me in pain" letter...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> The simple fact is that all of that is for you. And none of it takes anything away from the scars you've left on the soul of the one you've done it to.


 @marduk these words are so true for all waywards even "remorseful" ones - the simple fact is you can not erase the consequences of what you have done - EVER. You could do IC, MC, etc but you can't take away those scars you left on your spouse's heart. I do think a lot of the more "remorseful" ones have real trouble grappling with this and it does haunt them as it should - I feel the bulk of the emotional fallout should be on the cheater and not the betrayed. But that is rarely the case unfortunately.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> is she remarried?


No, she isn't. But just to show how much she has changed in her thinking, I do know that she told her new BF, up front , that she had been a cheater in the past. She is completely honest about it. I'm proud of her.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> No, she isn't. But just to show how much she has changed in her thinking, I do know that she told her new BF, up front , that she had been a cheater in the past. She is completely honest about it. I'm proud of her.


It seems from your description - your XW took the TIME and ENERGY and made an effort to SHOW she has changed...good for her!!!!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> It seems from your description - your XW took the TIME and ENERGY and made an effort to SHOW she has changed...good for her!!!!


I think so. You see, TS, cheaters cheat for a combination of reasons, but two of the most common are selfishness and immaturity. They think of themselves first, and they don't have the life experience to make proper relationship choices. How many times do we see people cheat , who have been in only one or very few relationships? They simply are not experienced enough. 
My ex now knows both the positives and negatives of infidelity, and I would bet large amounts of money , that it would never enter her thinking, to do it again.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I think so. You see, TS, cheaters cheat for a combination of reasons, but two of the most common are selfishness and immaturity. They think of themselves first, and they don't have the life experience to make proper relationship choices. How many times do we see people cheat , who have been in only one or very few relationships? They simply are not experienced enough.
> My ex now knows both the positives and negatives of infidelity, and I would bet large amounts of money , that it would never enter her thinking, to do it again.


:thumbup:


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