# I'm doing it, but...



## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

For those of you who don't know my story:

- Wife left me on New Year's eve and immediately wanted a divorce
- 3 weeks later, through several letters I declared unconditional love for her (regardless of her decision)
- A month later (just last week) we reconciled and I actually fell in love with her all over again
- There has been no infidelity in our marriage

Life is good and very refreshing most of the time. I love her more than ever and she absolutely knows it.

From time to time she gives me the cold shoulder and actually feels very guilty about it. She sometimes wishes to die.

Today she sat me down and explained:

"I hope you can accept that I may never love you the way you love me. I am okay with just spending the rest of my life perhaps unhappily married just so I don't hurt you. This might be a phase and I may get past it."

I know for a fact that my wife is not physically into me much due to my height (I'm a bit short and same height as her). She has continuously brought this up in our relationship as something she just can't deal with. It's crushing to see her face deflate into a disappointment state every time she sees me after a few hours. It's like I can read the words "WTF am I doing with this guy?" in her eyes.

On the other hand, she continuously calls me the love of her life. She calls me handsome. Our sex life is great. She says the same.

But then she goes into her phase where she says "I don't want to hurt you but I don't want to fake things anymore either. I don't love you the way you love me".

I'm deeply hurt, but madly in love.

Right now she's in our bed calling me to go and cuddle with her as she misses "my touch". I will go, but I can't trust her feelings.

What am I doing wrong? What can I do? Thoughts?


----------



## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I suppose you are doing plenty wrong. A woman has to believe her man is perfect. That he can do no wrong either. Love just so as not to hurt you isnt good enough. I have similar though not the same problems. Most posts on here are very similar that the woman doesnt reciprocate their love and its all for the same reason. Love cant be forced it somehow has to be earned. Taking her virginity does help. What can you do. Not much really. Sometimes if she sees other people value you it can change her. Think of something that you are better than others and try and impress it upon her.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

accept said:


> I suppose you are doing plenty wrong. A woman has to believe her man is perfect. That he can do no wrong either. Love just so as not to hurt you isnt good enough. I have similar though not the same problems. Most posts on here are very similar that the woman doesnt reciprocate their love and its all for the same reason. Love cant be forced it somehow has to be earned. Taking her virginity does help. What can you do. Not much really. Sometimes if she sees other people value you it can change her. Think of something that you are better than others and try and impress it upon her.


She constantly praises my intelligence and values. She admits she's learned so much from me, she'll be thankful for the rest of her life.

She says she doesn't think anyone can love and care for her like I do!

She says she loves my knowledge of things and how I can keep up with the best of the best when I want to. 

She has said many times that no one can even come close to me as far as what she wants in her man. 

She says all that while she's in her "not in love" phase too.

So complex and confusing. She says she sees nothing wrong in her life but is not happy. She sometimes openly talks about her wish to die.

I've asked her for years to seek professional therapy but she always finds an excuse to not do it.

I love her so much.


----------



## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

Maybe youre overdoing it. I mean the love and caring. She must have mentioned why she would wish to die. Something must be seriously troubling her. It seems that she appreciates you are the best man for her, thats a good start.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

synthetic said:


> From time to time she gives me the cold shoulder and actually feels very guilty about it. She sometimes wishes to die.[


Synthetic, I suggest you ask your psychologist whether these repetitive suicidal thoughts and frequent mood changes are signs of her having moderate to strong traits of a personality disorder (in addition to depression). I mention this because, if she does suffer from strong traits of a PD, you are living with an unhappy woman whom you cannot possibly make happy. Moreover, it is very unlikely that such a person will ever seek therapy and stay in it long enough to make a difference in her dysfunctional behavior. 

In my case, I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists and 2 MCs for weekly visits over a period of 15 years -- all to no avail. It thus took me 15 years to learn that it is impossible to make an unhappy person become happy. They have to be willing to do that for themselves and, if they have strong PD traits, that willingness rarely happens.

I also suggest you ask your psych whether her alternating hot and cold feelings toward you may be a sign of black-white thinking. Such thinking occurs when a person never learns to tolerate experiencing ambiguities and mixed feelings about other people. The result is that they categorize everyone as "all good" and "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other based simply on a minor infraction or misinterpreted comment. This all-or-nothing thinking also will be evident in her frequent use of extreme expressions such as "you always..." and "you never...."

I mention this because such B-W thinking could help explain your W's hot and cold treatment of you. While a person is "splitting you white," she will be in touch only with her loving feelings toward you. Yet, while she is "splitting you black," she will be so completely out of touch with those feelings she will be convinced that she never really loved you at all. Take care, Synthetic.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Uptown,

Thanks for the wise reply.

Indeed, she shows worrying signs of the "black and white" attitude at times. It's very random, but I can always find traces of it in her.

I'm kindly and lovingly swaying her towards professional help. It hurts me so much to think this angel could find herself not wanting to live at times.


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes, she definitely needs professional help. She sounds like she is depressed, but that's not all. The fact that she clings to an archaic notion that "he must be big, strong, tall man!" is part of her problem. Having a deep-seated assumption like this is not uncommon, but what most people do not realize is that they can free themselves from this kind of assumption. And omg, it is so freeing! So maybe if you let her know she could find a way to happiness with you and actually, truly, take the height thing out of the equation, would motivate her to get help. 

If you want an example of what I mean--think about annie hall, and how she goes on and on to woody allen about her former lover, and WA and the audience build up some inspecific image of how awesome this former lover must be--and then it turns out to be Wallace Shawn. Yes, there are tons and tons of people out there who find others sexually attractive based on things other than a cultural definition of attractive, and we can all get to that point, although most people think it is "hard wired" into us and unchangeable. It's not!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

synthetic,

It sounds like your wife is depressed. When depressed it's hard to feel love or good about anything. 

Are there things in her life right now that give your joy? I'm betting that the answer is no.

You wife needs help. This is a chance for you to express your love for her by taking care of her and getting her the help she needs.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> synthetic,
> 
> It sounds like your wife is depressed. When depressed it's hard to feel love or good about anything.
> 
> ...


Ele,

You know how I feel about her. I'm willing to do whatever it takes. Really. Whatever it takes. I'll be supportive of her for the rest of her life, even if at some point she chooses to get rid of me. 

I know for a fact that she's depressed. I just seem to be running out of ideas on how to get her the help she needs. Sometimes I seriously think about professional training in psychology just so I can understand my wife's thought-process. I think I've made a lot of progress in predicting her phases.

I will book her an appointment with a counselor this week. She may not go, but I'll book it anyway. Part of me is afraid of the counselor telling her things that further encourage her to disconnect from me, but I love her and if that's what makes her happy, then I will survive the hurt.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I think I've made a lot of progress in predicting her phases.


Synthetic, what seems to cause her mood changes, i.e., "phases" as you say? I ask because I am familiar with the two main causes of heavy mood changes: BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and bipolar disorder. I lived with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found several clear differences between the two disorders.

One difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. 

A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours).

A third difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. 

A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

Finally, a sixth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will. 

Yet, despite these six clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a substantial portion of BPD sufferers (about 25%) also have the bipolar disorder.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Uptown,

Thank you so much for the elegant summary of differences between the two disorders. I have long suspected both but based on my own research and your great post, I'm almost convinced she suffers from BPD.

It's gonna be a bumpy road I guess, but I'm more eager than ever to help us get through it, even if it means dealing with it for eternity.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

synthetic said:


> I'm almost convinced she suffers from BPD.


Yes, your description of her behavior led me to suspect strong BPD traits too. That's why I hinted at it with my description -- in my first post above -- of the black-white thinking, which is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits.

In case you haven't noticed it, her claim that she doesn't find you physically attractive (due to your height) is belied by the fact that you have such a great sex life with her, e.g., the five times you had sex in 4 days when reuniting. Keep in mind that, if she is a BPDer as you suspect, she is capable of sincerely believing you are not physically attractive one week -- and then finding you to be the hottest thing on two feet the next week. That is the way B-W thinking works.

Also keep in mind that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if they are emotionally healthy. These traits become a problem only when they are strong enough to seriously distort one's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations, thereby undermining long term relationships. 

Of course, only a professional can determine whether your W's traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having the full-blown disorder. Yet, even when the traits are well below that level, they can undermine a marriage and make your life miserable. Moreover, it is not difficult to spot the red flags, i.e., strong occurrences of BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about traits such as cold withdrawal, lack of impulse control, lack of empathy, and inability to trust. 

I therefore suggest that you read more about BPD traits to see how many apply to your W at a strong level. If you want to, I suggest you start with Schreiber's description of "waif borderlines" at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved. and with Mahari's description of waifs borderlines at Borderline Personality - The Quiet Acting In Borderline and The Silent Treatment - Nons - Borderline Personality Disorder Inside Out. Actually, Mahari refers to these waifs as "quiet borderlines," a term I like better. 

I mention these quiet BPDers to you because it can be difficult to find information about them online. The vast majority of BPDers are very loud, i.e., they throw loud temper tantrums and rages when their fears are triggered. Yet, because you don't mention any rages or temper tantrums occurring, your W must be one of the quiet types if she suffers from strong BPD traits. This means that, instead of "acting out" when her anger is triggered, she "acts in" (turning the anger inward). This does not mean you escape punishment. Rather, it means she will punish you with cold withdrawal and passive aggressive remarks and behavior.

If you would like to read more about BPD traits, a good place to start is _Stop Walking on Eggshells_. It is the best-selling BPD book targeted to the spouses and partners. Moreover, an excellent website dedicated to the spouses is BPDfamily.com, where you will find the stories shared by thousands of partners. Of the 8 message boards there, one is dedicated to the spouses who are trying to remain married to a BPDer. It is called the "Staying" board. 

Finally, I suggest that you check out my post in Maybe's thread about his emotionally unstable W. My post there is at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion rings a bell or raises questions, Synthetic, I would be glad to discuss them with you.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

WOW Uptown I feel like you're sent to save me! I got lots to digest and learn. Thank you so much. Gonna spend the next few days going through the links. I will either PM you or post here for updates and questions.

This has been an eye-opener for me.


----------



## CH (May 18, 2010)

synthetic said:


> "I hope you can accept that I may never love you the way you love me. I am okay with just spending the rest of my life perhaps unhappily married just so I don't hurt you. This might be a phase and I may get past it."



Ouch, can you really take that being shoved down your throat and then smiling at her 24/7 until she finally MIGHT fall in love with you.

Buddy, she just told you straight to your face that she's not in love with you and never was. She's staying only now for whatever reason hoping that she might eventually fall in love with you?

Good luck to you if this is what you want.


----------



## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

synthetic, are you absolutely sure there has never been infidelity in your marriage? What if some of the feelings of doubt from your wife are spurned from a EA/PA she might have had and now she feels guilty from doing that to you, and therefore stuck and torn between her feelings for you and another?

I certainly hope that's not it, but just offering this up as another possibility as food for thought...


----------

