# Another update with advice needed



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Okay, so as many of you know, my husband and I have been reading through His Needs, Her Needs. We haven't finished it yet. He was sick, and then I was sick with yet another UTI, and then the holidays came, and then I caught the cold/sinus infection he has, and now we're getting back into our normal routine...but we've gotten about halfway. We know what each others top five emotional needs are, and we've been working on meeting them. He has been doing...well, better than before the book in showing me affection and being open and honest. Which is an improvement, one that I am very grateful for. I'm actually happier around him then I have been since our first year of marriage, so I am incredibly grateful for that. 

I actually have hope for us now, which I was beginning to lose before. Last night we had some of the absolute best love making in a very, very long time. I'm never going on BC again. That stuff messed me up, and I am so very, very happy to be off of it. My drive has come back like I had when we were first married and I finally feel like a sexy, desirable woman! 

But there are some things that bother me that I don't know how to talk about. Admiration is my absolutely most important need. He rarely, if ever, actually gives me any admiration outside of saying "I love you" and "thank you" when I make him lunch. I've told him countless times that I need him to tell me everyday something nice. 

I tend to be insecure about my looks. I don't know why. I never used to be insecure, but lately my metabolism has changed. I used to be able to eat whatever I wanted and stayed 90 lbs. Now, I have to really monitor what I eat. We've been going to the gym, but because of a leg injury I sustained years ago, I can't do a lot of high-intense training. Last night I went two miles on the elliptical and had no pain so I think I finally found my cardio machine, but I digress. Anyway, I'm working on losing the extra fat on my body and eating healthy because one of my husband's top emotional needs is Physical Appearance. Even before talking to him about his needs, when I was reading the book alone before he cam home from work, I knew that it would be either his third or fourth need. And I was right. 

Seeing as this is his need, I am more than willing to go to the gym and workout. I mentioned before in a previous thread about hating the gym, but I've done a lot of work on my priorities and, even when my husband isn't fulfilling me, I've decided I need to fulfill myself. Health is important to me, and I want to look good. My body won't change unless I put in the effort, and the new year has really pushed me to try. Plus, another of my husbands needs is Recreational Companionship and he said going to the gym totally counts so, bonus! Going to the gym fulfills two of his needs(one just by going, the other over the long haul), and one of my top goals in life. 

But being that I am trying, I desperately need his approval. I need to know he's proud of me. That he notices my effort. He motivates me while we're there, but makes no comments otherwise. Being a bit insecure, it's difficult to feel feminine. I'm not fat or obese or chunky, but I've put on enough weight so as to no longer fit into most of my clothes. I'm short, which makes it highly difficult to find pants that fit without being three inches too long. I hate that. And it's difficult to feel feminine when the clothes that would fit your height were made for a twelve year old twig. 

I've told him before how much I need to hear his admiration of me. He's bragged about me to his coworkers before, and I love hearing those things. I don't want him to do it too much, cause that can cause tension in the workplace, but when it happens I soak it in. I love getting texts from him. Even sexy ones! I know some women don't like the sexy stuff so much, but I do! It tells me that I'm still desirable. That he wants me, and more importantly, that he wants me enough to show it in how he treats me. I would do cartwheels all day if he were to actually say something about me on facebook. 

But the issue is that he listens, nods, and says, "Well then I'll do that babe", gives me a kiss, and then never does it. I finally stopped bragging about him on facebook or giving him "I loves yous" on his FB page because I couldn't take it that he wasn't reciprocating. And it kills me, because this is really where the issues have been in our relationship. Getting him to show me different kinds of affection have never been as difficult as getting him to voice his admiration, his praise. I try dropping hints like, "Maybe you should send me some sexy text messages tomorrow so that we can fool around on lunch?" I said that very thing last night. He grinned at me with that grin I love, and then today....nothing. Or, he'll remember for like, two days and then will just stop for no reason. Which I don't get! I mean, he gets two breaks at work. How hard would it be to write out a short, loving text or a short, sexy text and press send? It would take less than a minute. 

Today I recommended that if texting is too hard, maybe to send an email. I'd still get it on my phone, and he's at his computer all day. He said that was a great idea, why didn't he think of it himself, and said he'd try it. *sigh* I don't think he gets how important this is to me, even though he knows this is my number one need. I've told him over and over. 

I'm thankful that things have improved. I was on cloud nine last night after sex. I felt like a real sexy, wanted woman for the first time in over a year. I was happy. I could have been at the gym all night and been happy just to be with him. We cuddled while watching Total Recall, laughed in bed before going to sleep. The intimacy last night was at such a high. It really was awesome. It would just be so much more complete if he would meet this need.

Any ideas as to how I can help him see how important this is? I feel like I should know how to communicate this to him, but I've tried SO many different things and none of them have worked.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I think your expectations of what a person can do isn't realistic. Yes, it sounds simple enough, but if it's not natural to him, it won't last long. If you put the shoe on the other foot, it's like asking you not to feel a need for admiration. Yes, you *could* deny your need for a while, but it would come back.

Yet you said that he does other things to be affectionate. Would it be possible for you to come to believe these things are signs of admiration? 

Another possibility might be to set him up from time to time - what I called "fishing" when my ex did this with me. I'm not naturally inclined to compliments, but when he would let me know "Hey, I did this for you" I came to recognize it as his need to hear positive regard. Today, I do the same thing in a different way. I make comments about how lucky my husband is to have a wife who adores him, for instance, or who makes his lunches, etc. In exchange, I've given him the words he can use to express these things to others. (Not sure he needs them, but he does come home with something he told a friend about me once a week or so.)

As far as feeling more feminine and clothing, I'm definitely not a fashionista, but I remember my grandmother used to shop at an upscale store where the salespeople got to know her by name and would set aside things they thought she'd like. Also, you can visit a tailor to have things fit to your body in a way that flatters you as much as possible. Just a couple thoughts...


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> I think your expectations of what a person can do isn't realistic. Yes, it sounds simple enough, but if it's not natural to him, it won't last long. If you put the shoe on the other foot, it's like asking you not to feel a need for admiration. Yes, you *could* deny your need for a while, but it would come back.


Just because something isn't natural for a person doesn't mean it's unrealistic. It certainly isn't natural for me to go to the gym five times a week. I was never into sports or athleticism when I was younger. My parents never encouraged my brother and I to exercise. But I'm still trying because I know it's the right thing to do. And I'm not asking him to change himself or what he needs, so why should I have to change mine?



> Yet you said that he does other things to be affectionate. Would it be possible for you to come to believe these things are signs of admiration?


Not really. Affection and admiration don't meet the same need in the same ways. It's difficult to explain. I love cuddling with my husband, and kissing, and hugging and falling asleep together. But none of those things, while requiring us to be physically intimate, meets my need of sexual affection. Cuddling and kissing and flowers every few weeks and getting a surprise book just because and going on dates and dancing in our room to our favorite song all meet the need of affection, but they don't _voice_ his feelings for me. My third need is Honesty and Openness and that seems to be something he struggles with, and it goes right along with Admiration.



> Another possibility might be to set him up from time to time - what I called "fishing" when my ex did this with me. I'm not naturally inclined to compliments, but when he would let me know "Hey, I did this for you" I came to recognize it as his need to hear positive regard. Today, I do the same thing in a different way. I make comments about how lucky my husband is to have a wife who adores him, for instance, or who makes his lunches, etc. In exchange, I've given him the words he can use to express these things to others. (Not sure he needs them, but he does come home with something he told a friend about me once a week or so.)


I'm not sure I understand what you mean...I could just be being a bit dense or over thinking it, but could you clarify what you mean by "fishing"?



> As far as feeling more feminine and clothing, I'm definitely not a fashionista, but I remember my grandmother used to shop at an upscale store where the salespeople got to know her by name and would set aside things they thought she'd like. Also, you can visit a tailor to have things fit to your body in a way that flatters you as much as possible. Just a couple thoughts...


Thanks.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It seems like your primarily needs are security and validation. I'm not sure admiration is the biggy here. Admiration is something known more than shown. 

It's character traits and achievement of yours that he respects. This is not the same topic as wanting validation on a regular basis. *No matter though, you do need something that you want him to do a better job of which is help you to feel secure.
*
So you acknowledge that you're insecure. What are you afraid of? That to me is the first thing to figure out. Some of it you may do internally but the fears have to be defined before you or he can decide how to fix it.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Just because something isn't natural for a person doesn't mean it's unrealistic. It certainly isn't natural for me to go to the gym five times a week. I was never into sports or athleticism when I was younger. My parents never encouraged my brother and I to exercise. But I'm still trying because I know it's the right thing to do. And I'm not asking him to change himself or what he needs, so why should I have to change mine?
> 
> *I get what you are saying, but one is something you "do" as a conscious action. By trying to make admiration something for your husband to "DO" instead of something for him to "FEEL" his responses may feel forced and phony to him. It could undermine your relationship if he did try it! He's at work looking at a spreadsheet or something and thinks, "Oh, I have to interrupt my work and send a message so my wife will not get hurt. Hmm... what can I say that will please her?" This is nowhere near as simple and direct as working out at the gym three times a week. It is laden with ambiguity and word choices (how often has word choice caused conflicts between couples?) and it imposes a duty that directly conflicts with his work. I think you're asking for trouble, even though your arguments sound logical.*
> 
> ...


I don't mean to come off as brusque or rude, though sometimes people (and especially women!) find me too direct. Feel free to ignore or reject whatever I say. I am saying it with a goal of offering things for you to consider and see if they might be helpful as you find the choices that work best for you and your life. 

But the bottom line I'm getting at is that your husband isn't responsible for overcoming your insecurities. You could find other sources for admiration, too, like becoming a volunteer in an organization where your efforts are appreciated, in order to take some pressure off him. You also can help yourself feel better by learning to see his other actions as being valid ways to "voice" his feelings. 

Right now, I see you as being critical of him instead. This will not help your marriage and can destroy a relationship over a period of time.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I totally get you. I really do. I am very similar.

I've posted this story before but I'll do it again. Hubz had an EA a while ago with someone he was working with. I wasn't feeling the most awesome physically - I'd had a baby five months prior, but I had really made an effort. People used to say they couldn't believe how good I looked to say I'd had a baby that short a space of time ago.

Anyway, it hit my confidence really badly. This girl had hubz and his work colleagues arguing over her and she was pretty.

A while after, one of these colleagues called round one morning to pick up some keys for their work van. I answered the door, wearing some denim shorts and a vest in the midst of summer. He smiled at me, took the keys and went.

Turns out he was quite complimentary about me when he saw hubz at work. Which was a boost to my confidence when I was questioning if I was attractive. And I also asked hubz WHY couldn't he be saying that to me?

Tbh even now I don't think hubz gets it. Our counsellor said it was about me wanting to feel "on the radar." To feel that I am important and significant. Particularly in the light of his EA, for me to know I AM very attractive to him.

I don't know that I have an answer for you unfortunately. I too have tried in so many ways to get him to get it. He has so many reasons, from he doesn't have that need so can't relate, to he has so many other things to think about that he just forgets. None are comforting or helpful. What does he say to you about why he doesn't?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm not sure if I'm being facetious or not, I'll let you decide, but I mean no ill will.

Maybe you can get him some nice stationary and encourage him to write admiring notes and letters.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> It seems like your primarily needs are security and validation. I'm not sure admiration is the biggy here. Admiration is something known more than shown.
> 
> It's character traits and achievement of yours that he respects. This is not the same topic as wanting validation on a regular basis. *No matter though, you do need something that you want him to do a better job of which is help you to feel secure.
> *
> So you acknowledge that you're insecure. What are you afraid of? That to me is the first thing to figure out. Some of it you may do internally but the fears have to be defined before you or he can decide how to fix it.


I never thought of it that way...

The admiration I desire is about me wanting/needing to hear him tell me what he loves about me, that I'm beautiful and sexy to him, that he wants me, that he's proud to have me as his wife, that he wouldn't pass me up if he could go back to do his life over, and that I'm the best woman in the world to him. Those are things I mention to him. 

As far as me being afraid...I don't know. My insecurity seems to revolve around my body. I don't want to be overweight, so I guess one could say that I'm afraid of that. Relationally...I guess I would have to say that I'm afraid that I'm more in love with him than he is with me.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

> I get what you are saying, but one is something you "do" as a conscious action. By trying to make admiration something for your husband to "DO" instead of something for him to "FEEL" his responses may feel forced and phony to him. It could undermine your relationship if he did try it!


All I want is for him to put a voice to what he feels. I don't need it to sound fancy. I just want him to be honest and open about what he loves about me, and what he feels for me. Honesty and Openness is my third most important emotional need as well.



> He's at work looking at a spreadsheet or something and thinks, "Oh, I have to interrupt my work and send a message so my wife will not get hurt. Hmm... what can I say that will please her?" This is nowhere near as simple and direct as working out at the gym three times a week. It is laden with ambiguity and word choices (how often has word choice caused conflicts between couples?) and it imposes a duty that directly conflicts with his work. I think you're asking for trouble, even though your arguments sound logical.


So, in your opinion, what should I do? Suddenly decide that affection is more than sufficient? Change what I need to suit what works better for him while he's getting each of his needs met, no matter how hard I have to work to do so? I'm not trying to be sarcastic either, I just really don't see how I'm asking too much. I'm willing to do whatever I have to do to ensure that his needs are met. Why should I expect less from him?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

My husband's not great with the verbal expression of admiration either, and I'd say it's my third top need. Partly because of insecurity, partly because my parents have always lavished very sincere praise on all their children so it was a bit of a shock to get used to something different.

He has tried, now and then, to change this, but I can see it feels forced and weird to him. He's a really private person, he would never talk about me at work and I'm sure he'd never gush about me on FaceBook, not that he has an account. 

Anyway, here's what I've done:
Worked hard to remind myself that the way I look is not the most important thing about me. That looks generally aren't important.

Got less insecure. I look fine. I do the best I can and that's enough. 

Focussed on the many ways my husband does show he loves and admires me. 

Stopped allowing myself to imagine him different, or to get jealous when I hear/read about other men being very verbally appreciative of their wives. Actually, this was a problem for me when I first came to TAM.

I fish for compliments too. I say, "say something nice to me". Yeah, it doesn't mean as much, but it's better than nothing.

One more thing, I've taken up running again seriously and being careful about what I eat. I've lost 7kg (about 15 pounds). I was getting a bit annoyed that my husband didn't seem to even notice, but I found out the other day that he definitely had, but wasn't sure how to compliment me about it without inferring I looked bad before. Maybe your husband is worried he'll hurt your feelings if he admires your gym efforts etc because it implies he isn't happy with you the way you are?

Also, 90 pounds is very tiny. Is that really an ideal weight for you? Sorry, I don't know how tall you are.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

> But I disagree here. Those actions very much give voice to his feelings. You're simply not recognizing it and allowing it to be good enough. I know... it's "words of affirmation" that are meaningful to you, and that's where the fishing comes in, which I'll try to explain better. But this is a better example of the difficulty of making changes. Asking him to give words of affirmation is the same as asking you to let these other actions be good enough. You want him to alter his entire way of relating to you even as you sounded angry at the idea of YOU changing.


I really disagree with this. The whole idea of His Needs, Her Needs is to help shed light on what makes a spouse feel loved. And no, we don't share the same emotional needs. So? I'm doing everything that I need to change how I treat him, what I say, how I respond and the things I do so that he feels loved, even though they're not the things that make me feel loved. One of his needs is Domestic Support. I do the laundry. I keep things relatively clean. I do the dishes. I pack his snacks every day. I make his lunch everyday. I make dinner every night. I clean up the dinner mess every night. I vacuum. This helps him feel respected. This helps him feel that I recognize all the work he does throughout the day, and how much I want him to be relaxed and comfortable while he's home. This is what speaks to him, so I adjust myself to speak that language. 

And yes, cuddling and things speak his feelings _but not in the way that his voice does_. Cuddling with me doesn't tell me that he's proud of me. Telling me he loves me doesn't tell me what he loves about me. For me the actions can only say so much. I don't expect anyone else to understand. I get that not everyone needs vocal admiration, but I really shouldn't be defending my emotional needs here. 



> I don't know how to explain this well, but I mean fishing for compliments. Like "wasn't it nice that I did this for you?" or "Do you like the way I look with my new haircut?"


I have done this many times. It's never worked.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> I don't mean to come off as brusque or rude, though sometimes people (and especially women!) find me too direct. Feel free to ignore or reject whatever I say. I am saying it with a goal of offering things for you to consider and see if they might be helpful as you find the choices that work best for you and your life.
> 
> But the bottom line I'm getting at is that your husband isn't responsible for overcoming your insecurities. You could find other sources for admiration, too, like becoming a volunteer in an organization where your efforts are appreciated, in order to take some pressure off him. You also can help yourself feel better by learning to see his other actions as being valid ways to "voice" his feelings.
> 
> Right now, I see you as being critical of him instead. This will not help your marriage and can destroy a relationship over a period of time.


I _am_ doing things to deal with my insecurities. But even before I was insecure, I had this need. The insecurity isn't creating the need for Admiration. And, honestly, I personally feel that my husband's lack of vocal admiration has contributed, partly, to my insecurity. And, seeing as this is an emotional need and he is the most important person in my life, yes, I do think he is partly responsible. 

Thank you for offering the advice. I don't think it entirely applies.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I never thought of it that way...
> 
> The admiration I desire is about me wanting/needing to hear him tell me what he loves about me, that I'm beautiful and sexy to him, that he wants me, that he's proud to have me as his wife, that he wouldn't pass me up if he could go back to do his life over, and that I'm the best woman in the world to him. Those are things I mention to him.
> 
> As far as me being afraid...I don't know. My insecurity seems to revolve around my body. I don't want to be overweight, so I guess one could say that I'm afraid of that. Relationally...I guess I would have to say that I'm afraid that I'm more in love with him than he is with me.


I could have written that verbatim.

Will be reading with interest!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

tobio said:


> I totally get you. I really do. I am very similar.
> 
> I've posted this story before but I'll do it again. Hubz had an EA a while ago with someone he was working with. I wasn't feeling the most awesome physically - I'd had a baby five months prior, but I had really made an effort. People used to say they couldn't believe how good I looked to say I'd had a baby that short a space of time ago.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry for your situation. 

He doesn't really have a reason. In the past it's been, "I don't know why I don't do it", but he said that about affection too. At least now he's been actually putting in an effort with affection. I just wish he'd do the same with admiration. And I don't care what other men think about me. I don't need or want or crave attention from other men. Just him.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I never thought of it that way...
> 
> *The admiration I desire is about me wanting/needing to hear him tell me what he loves about me, that I'm beautiful and sexy to him, that he wants me, that he's proud to have me as his wife, that he wouldn't pass me up if he could go back to do his life over, and that I'm the best woman in the world to him.* Those are things I mention to him.
> 
> As far as me being afraid...I don't know. My insecurity seems to revolve around my body. I don't want to be overweight, so I guess one could say that I'm afraid of that. Relationally...I guess I would have to say that I'm afraid that I'm more in love with him than he is with me.


Those are all things I always wanted to hear too. And I have, now and then, over the years, but certainly not daily, or even weekly or monthly. Now and then, often on birthday/anniversary/Christmas cards.

I do sometimes say "tell me all the things you love about me".

I've also worried that I love him more than he does me, but over the years (20+) I've decided that's okay. He loves me as much as he can, and certainly more than anyone else, apart from our kids. Honestly, I think in nearly all relationships there's one person who loves more, although it's not always the same person all the time. It can switch around.

I think he probably can't heal your body insecurities. I would guess that even if he said all the right things, you would gradually get used to it, if you know what I mean, and it would take more and more admiration to get the same results.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

CharlieParker said:


> I'm not sure if I'm being facetious or not, I'll let you decide, but I mean no ill will.
> 
> Maybe you can get him some nice stationary and encourage him to write admiring notes and letters.


That's not a bad idea. I actually like it. It might make things easier for him...


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Lyris said:


> My husband's not great with the verbal expression of admiration either, and I'd say it's my third top need. Partly because of insecurity, partly because my parents have always lavished very sincere praise on all their children so it was a bit of a shock to get used to something different.
> 
> He has tried, now and then, to change this, but I can see it feels forced and weird to him. He's a really private person, he would never talk about me at work and I'm sure he'd never gush about me on FaceBook, not that he has an account.
> 
> ...


This is hard for me. So many of my friends have overly affectionate husbands who say things to them online all the time. I actually had one my friends ask me, "Does he even like you? Are you two okay? You say such nice things to him all the time and he never even comments." That hurt. And it has bothered me ever since. 



> I fish for compliments too. I say, "say something nice to me". Yeah, it doesn't mean as much, but it's better than nothing.
> 
> One more thing, I've taken up running again seriously and being careful about what I eat. I've lost 7kg (about 15 pounds). I was getting a bit annoyed that my husband didn't seem to even notice, but I found out the other day that he definitely had, but wasn't sure how to compliment me about it without inferring I looked bad before. Maybe your husband is worried he'll hurt your feelings if he admires your gym efforts etc because it implies he isn't happy with you the way you are?


Could be. I'll check with him. Anything that would help him, at this point, is worth trying.



> Also, 90 pounds is very tiny. Is that really an ideal weight for you? Sorry, I don't know how tall you are.


Oh no, I should have clarified. That was back in my late teens. That is not an ideal weight for me now. Not at all. Nor would I expect to be there.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Those are all things I always wanted to hear too. And I have, now and then, over the years, but certainly not daily, or even weekly or monthly. Now and then, often on birthday/anniversary/Christmas cards.
> 
> I do sometimes say "tell me all the things you love about me".
> 
> ...


I don't expect him to heal my bodily insecurities. While I think that his lack of verbal affirmation has certainly contributed, the majority of it has been me. That's why I'm determined to be healthy this year. If I can deal with my aspect of it(and I'm sure it won't happen overnight), then maybe his won't hurt so much.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

The writing notes wouldn't last long with me, 2 tops. Well, unless I would the happiness it brought, hmm.

And you said texting is a problem. If you both have smart phones maybe check out this app Between, billed as Facebook for just 2. (I never used it, remember hearing about it here.)


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Zanne said:


> C2W, you are a romantic at heart. I'm sorry, that doesn't really help you, just an observation.


Thanks.  I am a romantic and always have been. I blame Jane Austen for that. lol.



> I haven't read HNHN yet, but I think it is admirable that you are putting so much effort into your young marriage. Surely only good things can come of this.


Thank you. It is a fantastic book. It's brought about changes in our relationship that I thought were impossible. This seems to be the lingering issue that I'm trying to resolve.



> Do you worry that you will have a hard time keeping up with the gym since it is not something you really enjoy doing?


Sometimes. There was a period of about four or five months last spring/summer that I hit the gym pretty regularly. I was training for a couple of 5ks. But I tried too hart and hurt myself and had to slow way down. The elliptical has been great. I don't feel worn out or sore the next day, and I still get a fantastic cardio work out. That's helped a lot. Mentally I'm able to accomplish more than on a treadmill or bike. 

It also helps not being on BC. I had such a negative mentality in everything I did. Now, I can actually push myself without having a panic attack.

If being healthy is important to me(and it is) then I'll stick to it and make it happen. Plus, it helps to meet a need of my husband's, so that's great motivation too.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

(Warning, I'm going from the OP only, have not read any replies)

I can't help but notice an incredible need of external approval that is evident from this post.

It's not really a healthy way to live. Your husband will fail to live up to this expectation and you will resent him for it. He will resent you for expecting your happiness to come from him.

You seem to be relying on him to provide your happiness (happiness = inner peace to me). On his approval. 

This is the definition of Co Dependency.

A really great book that helped me a lot personally, is "CoDependent No More" by Melonie Beattie. 

I wish I had the book in front of me, there is an amazing quote that starts it off (inside the cover).

Do you attend individual counseling?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I don't expect him to heal my bodily insecurities. While I think that his lack of verbal affirmation has certainly contributed, the majority of it has been me. That's why I'm determined to be healthy this year. If I can deal with my aspect of it(and I'm sure it won't happen overnight), then maybe his won't hurt so much.


I really am sorry this is causing you pain. I think working hard the way you are will help, I know it helps me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I guess I would have to say that I'm afraid that I'm more in love with him than he is with me.


 This is just low self esteem talking. He could compliment you for 20 minutes a day and, after awhile, it would cease being enough. Because you're asking him to 'make' you feel good, wanted, pretty, etc. - but all those things can only come from YOU.

Are you in therapy? I'd start there.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Saki said:


> (Warning, I'm going from the OP only, have not read any replies)
> 
> I can't help but notice an incredible need of external approval that is evident from this post.
> 
> ...


Do I depend on him to be happy? No. I don't. As a person I like who I am. I'm happy and fulfilled personally. But relationally I do expect my husband to meet my emotional relational needs. And yes, having those needs neglected can make me sad. But that doesn't make me an unhappy person all around. 

I'm not Co-Dependent. I just happen to want my relationship to be mutually fulfilling for us both.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You've done HNHN, but have you done the LB questionnaire? It's more important to start with that one than with the EN questionnaire. Because what you are describing is actually an LB, not meeting an EN.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Lyris said:


> I really am sorry this is causing you pain. I think working hard the way you are will help, I know it helps me.


Last year I sort of took a back seat to resolving my issues. I figured if they didn't magically go away, I'd be stuck with them. Well, that grew old really quickly. Since no one else can fix them, I figured I might as well work as hard as I can do so myself. 

Working out used to be just about looking better. I've realized though that it goes deeper than that. The more I work out, the better I'll look, yes, but it will also mean that I've accomplished things. I'll have reached certain goals, conquered certain mentalities, succeeded at keeping my priorities where they need to be. All of that, I think, would help me battle my insecurities by proving to myself that I am strong and capable and worthy of love and fulfillment. And yeah, looking better will help too, but the issue is deep down. 

And maybe, just maybe, looking better and being more confident will help my husband see how lucky he is to have a woman like me.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> You've done HNHN, but have you done the LB questionnaire? It's more important to start with that one than with the EN questionnaire. Because what you are describing is actually an LB, not meeting an EN.


What's the LB questionnaire?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> This is just low self esteem talking. He could compliment you for 20 minutes a day and, after awhile, it would cease being enough. Because you're asking him to 'make' you feel good, wanted, pretty, etc. - but all those things can only come from YOU.
> 
> Are you in therapy? I'd start there.


I'm not asking him to "make" me feel anything. I know that my insecurity, for the most part, comes from me. That's why I'm working on myself too. I do, however, want to hear what he thinks of me and how he feels about me. I know that he loves me, but I still want to hear him say it. 

And no, I'm not in therapy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If he's not naturally inclined to 'share,' you have to give him a reason to change his comfort zone to do that. I don't know what will work for you, but it will have to be something HE likes, not what YOU like. Probably needs better communication, I'd think, to figure out what that is.

LB is Love Buster - what your spouse does that makes you unhappy (and vice versa). You get it at the same place you got the EN questionnaire (marriagebuilders.com). If he's LBing you, he can meet any number of ENs for you and you'll still be full of resentment and those ENs won't matter.

I'll just have to agree to disagree that you aren't wanting him to praise you and tell you what he likes about you, to make you feel good. If you were confident enough, you'd KNOW he feels all those things and wants you, and it wouldn't be making you this upset that you're not getting it from him.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> So, in your opinion, what should I do? Suddenly decide that affection is more than sufficient? Change what I need to suit what works better for him while he's getting each of his needs met, no matter how hard I have to work to do so? I'm not trying to be sarcastic either, I just really don't see how I'm asking too much. I'm willing to do whatever I have to do to ensure that his needs are met. Why should I expect less from him?


After this post you also mentioned "His Needs, Her Needs." Although I've seen it recommended often on here, I haven't read it. I have read dozens of other self help books, and with the exception of Gottman and Chapman, have found that trying to live a relationship by techniques worked out in a book doesn't tend to work well for the long haul. It's still two people who are engaging in a power struggle or have an incompatibility and one says, "See, the book says it should be done like this" and the other person says, "This is real life." Both are right, and both are mistaken. Shrug. 

I'm also no expert who can look back on a sixty-year marriage and tell you from experience that there's some magical solution. 

But I am definitely an expert on what causes relationships to fall apart! Like you, I have asked the same questions: "Why should I do all the work to make the relationship better?" "Why don't I feel loved?" and "Why can't he just love me the way I am?" (as well as others... sigh.)

What I've learned along the way: 

- Criticism and blame will always deteriorate relationships.
- There really isn't such a thing as "constructive" criticism when it comes to the way a person "is." 
- We can't change anyone but ourselves. 
- We can learn to see things in any way we want to.
- If we think we are happy, we are. If we think we aren't, we're unhappy.
- If we expect others to change themselves to please us, we will most often be disappointed. If we cannot love them as they are, we should not be with them or we should learn to love them in "as is" condition. 
- We can always find "proof" that our arguments are sound and logical and make good sense, and be left wondering why they don't work.
- We can be right, or we can be happy. 

I married a guy whose primary way of expressing love was money. As a poor girl from the wrong side of the tracks, this was an idea I'd always scorned. But once I recognized and accepted his generosity as being valid proof of his love, I didn't feel unloved. Gifts and money still mean nothing to me compared to acts of service and quality time, but I taught myself to "see through his eyes" and our marriage was pretty good for over a decade - quite an improvement for me from what I'd experienced before. 

It seems you're unwilling to see through your husband's eyes. It saddens me a little because I expect that you're going to insist on being right at the expense of your relationship. You have a great guy who is showering you with affection and you're focused on what you don't have instead of appreciating what you do. At some point, he will feel like he never measures up, and that's a shame. He doesn't "get it" and might never be able to. Sure, he might decide to make it his life's mission to change his way of thinking, but it's like the example I gave before of him at work.... and I don't think it's likely. I know this is not what you want to hear, but it's the truth. I truly hope you'll find a way to surrender your need to be right and let yourself find a way to give your own voice to his actions to meet those needs for yourself before he feels downcast and hopeless.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Enh, I had a couple replies typed up and trashed em.

I don't figure this conversation is for me


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

turnera said:


> I'll just have to agree to disagree that you aren't wanting him to praise you and tell you what he likes about you, to make you feel good. If you were confident enough, you'd KNOW he feels all those things and wants you, and it wouldn't be making you this upset that you're not getting it from him.


Yeah that. :iagree:

And this too



KathyBatesel said:


> But I am definitely an expert on what causes relationships to fall apart! Like you, I have asked the same questions: "Why should I do all the work to make the relationship better?" "Why don't I feel loved?" and "Why can't he just love me the way I am?" (as well as others... sigh.)
> 
> What I've learned along the way:
> 
> ...


:iagree:

What your missing right now is that it's about you. It's within you. The problem. And the solution. Both right there, looking back at you from the mirror.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

One thing I often recommend is that you institute a state of the marriage talk once a week, for 30 minutes, at a regular time. During that, you both vow to let the other person talk WITHOUT jumping in to defend yourself (if they say they don't like something about you), making it SAFE for them to talk and air grievances. That way, you'll know, on an ongoing basis, how your marriage is going, and can take steps to make adjustments.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

turnera said:


> I'll just have to agree to disagree that you aren't wanting him to praise you and tell you what he likes about you, to make you feel good. If you were confident enough, you'd KNOW he feels all those things and wants you, and it wouldn't be making you this upset that you're not getting it from him.


 Please understand I'm not giving him a pass. He NEEDS to address your needs and care about what you care about. Just as you do, for his. It's just that I don't want you to pin all your hopes on him doing this, for your happiness. Because then you are basing your happiness on another person, and that's never a smart thing, as it takes away your control over your own life.

And it's an ongoing process. I just had such a talk last night, and I've been married more than 30 years. That's why I like the 30-minute discussion.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Kathy: I really strongly disagree with what you say. Perhaps conforming to your husbands way of showing love works for you. I dare say it doesn't work for everyone, and especially not me. My husband is getting his emotional needs me in the way that he has expressed speaks to him. It's only fair that I get the same from him. If you see that as me insisting on being "right", and refusing to see through his eyes, then fine. I see it as working to make my marriage work, and I won't apologize for that or defend myself any more to you. What works for you won't work for everyone. And I'm not just going to accept less than what I'm getting. And for the record, he doesn't "shower" me with affection. You're assuming a lot. He's trying to meet my need for affection, which is more than I had a year ago, but he is far from succeeding. 

To everyone else: this isn't about my personal happiness. This is about the atmosphere of my marriage. It's inevitable that, in relationships, how people treat us are going to effect how we feel emotionally. To have a healthy, happy marriage both spouses need their emotional needs met. Otherwise there's resentment and bitterness. From my husband, in our relationship, I need to hear his feelings for me and his thoughts about me as a person and his wife. I don't see this as unhealthy or wrong. 

Yes, I have insecurities. I'm working on them. I'm also working on being a good wife to him by meeting his needs. I think it's only right that he does the same in return.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Kathy: I really strongly disagree with what you say. Perhaps conforming to your husbands way of showing love works for you.


I can see that! 

And let me know how your quest to get your way turns out for you, ok? I'll be thrilled to hear I'm wrong and to finally get the answers I spent a few decades looking for.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

So what exactly do you think your options are?

You aren't happy with the way your husband treats you.

So are you working on trying to change him?

Are you looking for ways to maintain your inner peace while your needs go unfulfilled?

Are you looking for an exit strategy for divorce?

Not sure what other paths you can choose???


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's the thing. You can't change anyone but yourself. You can TELL someone you're not happy with who they are, but they won't change unless they want to. That's why most sites focus on helping you become ok with yourself and finding healthy responses to not getting what you want from the other person, as you can't change anyone but yourself.

What does HE think about all this work you're doing to get him to change? That's what really matters. It sounds like he gives you A LOT of lip service and then goes about his merry way. Ignoring you. And you get more and more frustrated. Because you can't change anyone but yourself.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

One thing I have learned from my past is that even when you flat out tell your husband what you need to feel loved, he won't get it. He may be taking you for granted a little and feel he doesn't have to try that hard. Have you tried writing him an email or letter basically saying what you have been venting to us? You make some really great points that he should hear. 
I also know that it is hard to do something you naturally aren't used to doing. Words of affirmation are also on top of my husbands love language and I am learning to be better at expressing my admiration for him in this way. You seem to be reminding your husband and his head seems busy with things he finds more important at the time. 
Unfortunately, my husband didn't start putting in the effort until after he found out I was having an affair. I hope your husband gets his head in the right place and hears you before it's too late.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Putting aside the whole issue of internal validation vs. external validation, one thing really stands out when I read this. You are clearly a highly verbal, romantic, emotional person. I'm guessing that your husband is more analytical and pragmatic, would that be accurate?

I'm a very pragmatic and analytical person myself. I'm not prone to long talks about my feelings and what might spur them. It has taken me literally years to consistently do that "girl greeting" where we hug and say hi and then compliment something about the other girl. To me it's a pretty inane ritual, but I remind myself to do it because it's just what's expected in conversation. Now a striking bag or really hot shoes, I'll compliment strangers on, but that obligatory "oh, your hair looks cute" comment is a conscious nicety for me. 

From what you've said, I feel like your husband may be similar. If that's the case, then forming the spontaneous outpourings of every thought he has about you is frankly about like trying to put together a sentence in whatever language you studied in 7th grade. You know the individual words, you know what you want to say, but it doesn't flow out or probably even make much sense once you string them together. 

To me, I love someone or I don't. If I spend a lot of time thinking about all the reasons why or what I may love, then it's an analytical exercise and not the bubble-bath of warm fuzzies that it seems to be for other people. When I give compliments or say sweet things, it's because I'm seriously moved to say THAT THING.

Honestly, I think if this is a major need that can only be filled by the right words from him, you're going to have to set expectations and give him the words. If you need to hear something from him daily, ask him to set an alarm on his phone and when it goes off, text you or call you or whatever. I'd probably give him the words as well. Find a book of affirmations, or sonnets, or a Chicken Soup for the Married Soul-type of thing and tell him flat out that you NEED him to say/text/send something from that everyday that makes him think of you. He doesn't have to come up with it, figure out what it is you want to hear, whether it sounds okay or stupid or anything. Just pick it and go.

It sounds like a mechanical way to go, but that was a pretty effective approach for me. I was married to an Acts of Service guy. He took pride in the things he did around the house and greatly valued having those things recognized. I'm not a Service girl and not much of a hearth and home sort either, so once I realized that was such a big thing for him, I came up with a system a lot like I suggested above. I would put a note in my phone about whatever he said he was intending to do during the day and set a reminder to ask him about it or compliment him on it or whatever. It made him happy and once I made it a habit, was a pretty quick process for me.

Now surely I could be wrong in my assumptions about your husband, but it really sounds to me like you're going to have to lay out exactly, _exactly_ what you want from him. Of course, the bonus is that if you always wanted a guy who sent you sonnets.....just buy him a book of sonnets to draw from!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Saki said:


> So what exactly do you think your options are?
> 
> You aren't happy with the way your husband treats you.
> 
> ...


At this point, I'm about ready to throw in the towel. I have people here telling me my expectations are unrealistic and that I'm causing damage to my marriage by wanting my husband to put in the effort that I have. And I have him telling me my needs aren't unrealistic, and he understands that they're important, and then not following through by actually meeting them. 

I've been trying to work on my insecurities and how I behave around him. I thought that maybe my emotions make me seem weak and unattractive. Maybe his difficulty in praising me is that he doesn't see anything to praise. So, I've been acting more confident. Refusing to cry when I talk to him, even if I may want to. Dressing as nice as possible when we go out. Telling him outright what I expect from him, and telling him what the consequences will be if he doesn't meet those expectations. Nothing changed. At least with the book he's been showing a bit more affection, but even there it's like he only really tries every now and then. And all I want is to feel like he's fighting for this marriage as much as I am.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We didn't say you're damaging your marriage. We said that the way you're going about trying to get your needs met won't work. But you already knew that!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> Here's the thing. You can't change anyone but yourself. You can TELL someone you're not happy with who they are, but they won't change unless they want to. That's why most sites focus on helping you become ok with yourself and finding healthy responses to not getting what you want from the other person, as you can't change anyone but yourself.
> 
> What does HE think about all this work you're doing to get him to change? That's what really matters. It sounds like he gives you A LOT of lip service and then goes about his merry way. Ignoring you. And you get more and more frustrated. Because you can't change anyone but yourself.


He _says_ that he agrees with the book, that he understands how important my needs are, and then...nothing. Or, if something, very little. 

His number one need is Recreational Companionship. I have been making an effort to do more with him. To talk more when we're out on dates. To play more games at home. To eat together. Going to the gym everyday fulfills him, so we do that. His second need is Sexual Fulfillment. Now that I'm off birth control, our frequency has increased a lot and he is always happy, really happy, afterward. His third need is Physical Attractiveness. I'm working out. I do my hair and makeup. I dress well. I eat healthy. I brush my teeth, I shave, etc. His fourth need is Honesty and Openness. Never been an issue for me. His fifth need is Domestic Support, and I laid out what I do there already. 

Each and every one of his needs are being met in some way. I'm doing my best to improve and do more, but there is at least something he's getting every day/every other day to meet them. 

Me? My number one need is Admiration and I get very little if any. My second need as Affection. I get more of this than I used to, and I love it. This is really the only need he makes an effort to meet. My third is Honesty and Openness. Unless I initiate, he never tells me what he's feeling, good or bad. My fourth is sexual fulfillment. Although the sex itself is awesome, it lacks some of its fulfillment because I often question whether _I'm_ what he desires or of it's just the physical release. He doesn't tell me that he desires me or wants me. Some of this is my own insecurity, I know, but I still love hearing it. My fifth is Recreational Companionship which is met easily. But it's not as important. 

I'm rambling now, but, yeah.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Kermitty said:


> One thing I have learned from my past is that even when you flat out tell your husband what you need to feel loved, he won't get it. He may be taking you for granted a little and feel he doesn't have to try that hard. Have you tried writing him an email or letter basically saying what you have been venting to us? You make some really great points that he should hear.
> I also know that it is hard to do something you naturally aren't used to doing. Words of affirmation are also on top of my husbands love language and I am learning to be better at expressing my admiration for him in this way. You seem to be reminding your husband and his head seems busy with things he finds more important at the time.
> Unfortunately, my husband didn't start putting in the effort until after he found out I was having an affair. I hope your husband gets his head in the right place and hears you before it's too late.


Thanks for this. I want my husband to realize the importance too. I want to know that he realizes that I'm not a robot. I can't live in a relationship where my number one need is constantly neglected. I don't want a divorce. I love him, but sometimes I wonder if I love him more. 

I'm sorry about your situation. That totally sucks. I hope your husband was able to make up for the time he lost.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Is there someone you both respect that you could talk to and then have that person talk to him? Someone to smack some sense into him and make him see what he's got and tell him he needs to put in more effort?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

COGypsy said:


> Putting aside the whole issue of internal validation vs. external validation, one thing really stands out when I read this. You are clearly a highly verbal, romantic, emotional person. I'm guessing that your husband is more analytical and pragmatic, would that be accurate?


Yes, very.



> I'm a very pragmatic and analytical person myself. I'm not prone to long talks about my feelings and what might spur them. It has taken me literally years to consistently do that "girl greeting" where we hug and say hi and then compliment something about the other girl. To me it's a pretty inane ritual, but I remind myself to do it because it's just what's expected in conversation. Now a striking bag or really hot shoes, I'll compliment strangers on, but that obligatory "oh, your hair looks cute" comment is a conscious nicety for me.
> 
> From what you've said, I feel like your husband may be similar. If that's the case, then forming the spontaneous outpourings of every thought he has about you is frankly about like trying to put together a sentence in whatever language you studied in 7th grade. You know the individual words, you know what you want to say, but it doesn't flow out or probably even make much sense once you string them together.
> 
> ...


I've told him the alarm thing before. I can't tell you how many times I watched it go off, watched him turn it off, and then not say anything. As far as spelling out what I want him to say, I've done that too. I told him I don't need fancy frills. All I want is for him to say exactly what pops into his head about his feelings for me. But he can't/won't even do that much! I mean, is it really so hard to say, "I'm so proud to have you as my wife because xyz"? 

Maybe the booklet thing will help. Honestly, I'd take a cheesy line from a Hallmark card at this point. I just need _something_ to show me that he's actively trying to make this marriage work. 



> It sounds like a mechanical way to go, but that was a pretty effective approach for me. I was married to an Acts of Service guy. He took pride in the things he did around the house and greatly valued having those things recognized. I'm not a Service girl and not much of a hearth and home sort either, so once I realized that was such a big thing for him, I came up with a system a lot like I suggested above. I would put a note in my phone about whatever he said he was intending to do during the day and set a reminder to ask him about it or compliment him on it or whatever. It made him happy and once I made it a habit, was a pretty quick process for me.
> 
> Now surely I could be wrong in my assumptions about your husband, but it really sounds to me like you're going to have to lay out exactly, _exactly_ what you want from him. Of course, the bonus is that if you always wanted a guy who sent you sonnets.....just buy him a book of sonnets to draw from!


I'll try. I really would rather have his own thoughts, but he seems incapable(or unwilling) to tell me how he really feels.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Kermitty said:


> Is there someone you both respect that you could talk to and then have that person talk to him? Someone to smack some sense into him and make him see what he's got and tell him he needs to put in more effort?


We have a mutual friend. He's married and considerably older than us. We went to the same church for a while, and my husband and I were in their Bible study, and I know that my husband respects him. But I don't know how my husband would respond if the guy just randomly started telling him to pick up his game. I've considered it many times, and figured I'd deal with the consequences after the fact, but never actually asked the man to talk to hubs. If there was anyone I trusted to do so it would be him. 

I don't know.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Zanne said:


> LOVE Jane Austen! And Emily Bronte, et al. Fellow romantic here.


I love the Bronte sisters. _The Tenant of Wildfell Hall_ and _Jane Eyre_ are my two favorite novels of all time. 



> I trained for 5k's for awhile too, even though it's not really my passion; it was more of a challenge to see if I could do it. In the future if you find that you can't make it to the gym there are plenty of ways to get a work out into your day. Just stay flexible. I'm thinking ahead to maybe when you have kids - not sure if that's in your plans - but it can be challenging to carve out time for yourself with little ones in the house. Just something to think about.


It's not my passion either, but I want to be healthy. And I definitely have goals for my dream body, and it's not gonna happen by just sitting on the couch. lol. I do enjoy going to the gym. 

Husband and I thought we might start trying to have kids. I'm glad it hasn't worked yet. Just a few days ago we agreed that it's not time for a number of reasons. So...yeah. We want kids someday, but it's not today. Or tomorrow.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> At this point, I'm about ready to throw in the towel. I have people here telling me my expectations are unrealistic and that I'm causing damage to my marriage by wanting my husband to put in the effort that I have. And I have him telling me my needs aren't unrealistic, and he understands that they're important, and then not following through by actually meeting them.
> 
> I've been trying to work on my insecurities and how I behave around him. I thought that maybe my emotions make me seem weak and unattractive. Maybe his difficulty in praising me is that he doesn't see anything to praise. So, I've been acting more confident. Refusing to cry when I talk to him, even if I may want to. Dressing as nice as possible when we go out. Telling him outright what I expect from him, and telling him what the consequences will be if he doesn't meet those expectations. Nothing changed. At least with the book he's been showing a bit more affection, but even there it's like he only really tries every now and then. And all I want is to feel like he's fighting for this marriage as much as I am.


I know all too well how frustrated you feel. 

Learning to step outside of yourself and see through others' eyes is never easy, but sometimes it is worthwhile. It's up to you to decide, of course.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I told him I don't need fancy frills. All I want is for him to say exactly what pops into his head about his feelings for me. But he can't/won't even do that much! *I mean, is it really so hard to say, "I'm so proud to have you as my wife because xyz"? *


Frankly, yes. 

For me, feelings rarely "pop" into my head. Feelings are something that I have to more deliberately identify. When I see or get a question like that -- once I get past the deer in the headlights feeling -- there's a scramble in my brain to "switch gears" and even then, the first thing I sift through are potential "right" answers. And to spontaneously tell someone that "I'm proud to have them because xyz" is so far off the radar in my day to day, I can't even describe it. When I say things like that, it's because the sentiment is almost overwhelming me. It's rare, but completely heartfelt when it happens.

On kind of the same track, this also made me think of the times I've tried to keep journals. My journals are filled with lists, outlines and data about my life. Occasionally I'll have an entry that is more prosaic, but it is almost always in answer to a quoted question from some book or article. 

The picture in my head when it comes to this kind of situation is that classic scenario where one person is speaking to another in a completely foreign language. They keep talking louder and louder, more and more vehemently, but it doesn't make it any more comprehensible because in the end, it's just not the same language.

Here's another idea. Maybe instead of HNHN, it would be helpful for him to look into EQ (Emotional Quotient). It might go away toward describing why this particular kind of communication is so important to you. If I remember correctly, it was originally presented as a management tool and so a lot of the material around the concept is laid out very practically.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Zanne said*: C2W, you are a romantic at heart.


 Yes, she IS ...and this is part of the problem I'm afraid..... because he is not so much. 

Created2Write.... I can see where KathyBatesel and you are both coming from... Because had you married a man who naturally "expressed" in this way -you likely would feel fulfilled emotionally... I believe that. And beings he is struggling to do this to what you feel you need for happiness... it will inevitably come down to a lowering of your expectations some ....finding this *ACCEPTANCE* in who he is, and what he is willing to give...of his own free Volition. 

Even if he did set timers & watches & copy phrases from a book...after a time, he may grow weary...also you wouldn't feel it was from his heart ...this too will loose it's luster. Cause this is what you said you REALLY want ..."All I want is for him to say exactly what pops into his head about his feelings for me. But he can't/won't even do that much! "



Thundarr said:


> It seems like your primarily needs are security and *validation*. I'm not sure admiration is the biggy here. Admiration is something known more than shown.


 Speaking of validation >>











> *CharlieParker said*:
> Maybe you can get him some nice stationary and encourage him to write admiring notes and letters.


This sounds good but I can attest... I have tried to get mine to do this ....telling him that is ALL I wanted for an Anniversary gift (for years mind you)..... "Please pretty please do it for me honey"... Ha ha ha ... I am holding my breath... Now granted, my husband would DO near anything for me -you mention the thing about feeling you love him more... our whole marriage my husband has felt HE loved me MORE....When he told me this years ago - I was saddened he felt that way. It shouldn't have been. 

But when it comes to writing a note. ....I've had to face the music...I am the Writer - funny how opposites attract many times... for him...that is like pulling teeth. Even though he knows I'd prefer a written letter over diamonds, I think I will die before I see it....at some point you just learn to accept some things and joke about it....which is what I often do. But it's OK. 

I may get 2 emails a year with a Love song & a few sentences...and yeah, I feel on top of the world with such things. He'd never mention me on FB... Heck, a friend would be lucky if he even replied to a comment!! That's just who he is. 

He is Romantic though.... but he'll never be "the expresser" I am ....but when it happens...those special moments ...he can blow me away... I can ride on those clouds for weeks....it's lasting. You need to take it to heart ...

Do you get some of these Created2write? 



> *Created2Write said*: He doesn't tell me that he desires me or wants me. Some of this is my own insecurity, I know, but I still love hearing it.


My husband also doesn't go on about how he Desires me or WANTS me (using words)...a little comeback flirting is there....but really it is in his touch... That is *his* way. Maybe your husband's is as well ? I've had to accept the "words" just ain't as much a part of his package to me. Doesn't mean he isn't feeling them though. 

Does he have a special song for you/ to you, he's told you when he hears it -this is how he feels ? Maybe ask him to play this for you & you can dance to it holding each other. Have him surprise you. A thought. HIS feelings poured out to you...in a song. 

Speaking of the "I want you " phrase, which my husband doesn't say to me either... His song to me has forever been, since we've met... "  I Love You by Climax Blues Band .... and you know what is really sweet ....it has the words ....."*I want you*"... "*I need you*" ....and "*I love you*" in it. When I hear this song, it all comes in like a flood ....There it is... his heart. 

So even without his going on speaking all of those things that I'd too be gushing to hear on a regular basis..... I still know the feelings are there... 

Could you say this about your husband also.... realizing that ..although it would set you on top of the world if he went on like that -on a regular basis, the fact he doesn't -also doesn't mean the feelings aren't there & felt deeply (even though you cant wrap your head around why he doesn't just say them!). 



> *COGypsy said: *For me, "feelings rarely "pop" into my head. Feelings are something that I have to more deliberately identify. When I see or get a question like that -- once I get past the deer in the headlights feeling -- there's a scramble in my brain to "switch gears" and even then, the first thing I sift through are potential "right" answers.
> 
> And to spontaneously tell someone that "I'm proud to have them because xyz" is so far off the radar in my day to day, I can't even describe it. When I say things like that, it's because the sentiment is almost overwhelming me. It's rare, but completely heartfelt when it happens.


 I believe this...Just reading about the different temperaments... It's a huge disconnect.. When a woman is HIGH in the *FEELING* and the man is HIGH in the *THINKING*... (each having it's own bar in these also )...they really can be world's apart in how they look upon the importance of these things. They just don't see it the same way, this is why when they TRY to do as their spouse wants, it may last for a time, but it falls off, cause it is foreign to how they naturally think/feel.

MY husband is more of a FEELER than me, as I am split between a Thinker & FEELER but because I am more of an Extroverted Expresser over him (plus being a woman makes me a little more emotional)... this near makes us EQUAL ...in the "feeling" part ... so he fulfills my thirst in this area. 

I do feel had I married a THINKER, this would be more challenging for me.......being the expressive Romantic I am...so in this way, I DO understand where you are coming from Created2 write!


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

One thing I've noticed is that when my husband is feeling really happy and relaxed and emotionally safe with me, he is more likely to express how he feels about me in words. Since I've been making a more conscious effort to drop all expectations and criticisms, even in my own head, I've noticed he's become more forthcoming.

So you may find that if you can let things go for a while and radiate love and acceptance, he may naturally start to express things more. 

Because something you wrote earlier about how he would ignore the little alarms struck me as a bit passive aggressive, like he's seeing it as a power struggle, you wanting him to change who he naturally is. It might not even be conscious. 

FWIW, I don't think your expectations are unreasonable, nor is your desire that he work on your relationship as much as you are. But they still may not be able to be fulfilled. It's not fair, I know, but that's how it very often is.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks SA and Lyris. I guess what's hard for me is that I've already lowered my expectations. Showing affection isn't natural for him at all either. What difficult is that I don't want to be stuck in a marriage where I just have to accept much, much less than what I'm giving. If I were to suddenly stop making his sandwiches or having as much sex, and expect him to accept what I do give, he would be infuriated. I hate that I'm being expected to do just that with my own needs. 

Well, I blew it tonight. I tried to bring up this topic in a non-confrontational way and failed. I was upset, said a lot of things, some of them true, some not, and he got really p*issed. He was defensive which made me more angry. And then, to my surprise, he said that he really believed I was co-dependent. And then he left the apartment. 

This has been one hell of a day. I feel like sh!t.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Was he always bad with giving you verbal appreciation and affection, C2W?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Created2write said: *Well, I blew it tonight. I tried to bring up this topic in a non-confrontational way and failed. I was upset, said a lot of things, some of them true, some not, and he got really p*issed. He was defensive which made me more angry. And then, to my surprise, he said that he really believed I was co-dependent. And then he left the apartment


So sorry to hear Created2Write!!  Hope he'll come back soon...and you can calmly talk... sometimes a man just needs to get away, some fresh air , find a cave for awhile.... You said you said things that weren't true......I am sure this didn't go over so well -making him very defensive. 

I looked up that book Saki mentioned ....sounds like a great one - maybe one of the best on this subject. I've never read about Co-dependency. Only that couples need to strive for *Interdependence* in our relationships -this is the healthy type. 













> *Originally Posted by Saki *
> (Warning, I'm going from the OP only, have not read any replies)
> 
> I can't help but notice an incredible need of external approval that is evident from this post.
> ...


Here is the book, that has some darn excellent reviews at 382







!



> Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself: Melody Beattie:
> 
> Is someone else's problem your problem? If, like so many others, you've lost sight of your own life in the drama of tending to someone else's, you may be codependent--and you may find yourself in this book.
> The healing touchstone of millions, this modern classic by one of America's best-loved and most inspirational authors holds the key to understanding codependency and to unlocking its stultifying hold on your life.
> ...


Saki ...I was googling trying to find what the quote was ...one link mentioned the favorite quote being this... not sure if this was the one you meant inside the cover though!



> "*On Acceptance and Gratitude*
> 
> In a state of acceptance we are able to respond responsibly to our environment. In this state we receive the power to change the things we can. We cannot change until we accept our powerlessness over the people and circumstances we have so desperately tried to control. Acceptance is the ultimate paradox: We cannot change who we are until we accept ourselves the way we are. When we surrender, when we’re in a state of acceptance, we relinquish the need to resist ourselves and our environment. That’s when we’re free to cultivate contentment and gratitude.
> 
> It has also been my experience that my Higher Power seems reluctant to intervene in my circumstances until I accept what God has already given me. Acceptance is not forever. It is for the present moment. But to move beyond this moment, it must be sincere and at gut level."


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> This is hard for me. So many of my friends have overly affectionate husbands who say things to them online all the time. I actually had one my friends ask me, "Does he even like you? Are you two okay? You say such nice things to him all the time and he never even comments." That hurt. And it has bothered me ever since.


Here's what you do with your "friend." I want you to go over to their home, knock on the front door and give them a big fat helping of low-calorie Shut the Eff Up.


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> I'll just have to agree to disagree that you aren't wanting him to praise you and tell you what he likes about you, to make you feel good. If you were confident enough, you'd KNOW he feels all those things and wants you, and it wouldn't be making you this upset that you're not getting it from him.


That's not how it works. Think about this in terms of how you relate to your own spouse, because this is something I used to (and still occasionally) have to deal with mine. 

You can't expect your spouse to read your mind and come up with all the ways you want him to share his love for you. That kind of thinking leads to all sorts of relationship problems. Every third thread on TAM is somebody confused about why their spouse suddenly announced they wanted out. The poster thought everything was going along fine, while their spouse has been resentful for years about something for years but chose not to share their feelings with the poster because they expected the poster to "just know" what they needed. 

You can't expect to get anything if you don't ask for it.


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

One last question...

You've mentioned a couple of times how he is not fulfilling your needs for admiration, but I don't think I've seen how he has fulfilled your general needs. If I were to ask him directly how he IS fulfilling your need for admiration or validation (which I think is the better word for this), what would he say?

The fact of the matter is that he'll only put in the effort when he realizes that your worth the effort.

My wife and I went through the Five Love Languages (actually she read it 10 years ago, and I read it late last year, which should tell you where my head was for the majority of our marriage), so I'll use those terms and hope there's an equivalent term in the book you're reading. I primarily use "gifts" as my way of understanding how love is communicated. My wife's primary love language is service. So she would do something nice for me, I wouldn't appreciate it as much as she thought I should, and she resented me for it. It was the same way with me. I could give her something I spent a lot of time picking out and/or designing, but if it wasn't practical or didn't do something for her she couldn't care less, which made me resentful toward her.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Now, in addition to trying to level the playing field for both of us, we're also able to recognize the effort the other has put in. Does this help you at all? Maybe, maybe not. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking your spouse to make a little effort to help you feel special. But it's also important for you to recognize and appreciate the efforts he's already making.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

to summarize below what C2R said about her husband meeting her 5 needs:

*Admiration* very little

*Affection	* Sufficient (He makes an effor)

*Honesty and open	* Not sufficient (He does not initiate)

*Sexual* Awesome (But his desires are questioned by C2W)

*Recreational* Sufficient (met easily)
*Companionship*


It seems that according to C2W words that he is meeting 3 of the 5 but is not sufficient in the other two. The two that he is not sufficient in have to do with verbal communications. It is obvious that his nature is not one that is strong in verbal communications

C2W on the other hand is meeting all 5 of his needs.
Now that seems like a slam dunk! 
The score is C2W = 5	Husband = 3
Of course we have not heard from the husband except


> And then, to my surprise, he said that *he really believed I was co-dependent. *


Right or wrong it appears that the husband thinks that C2W is not self sufficient enough within her own self.
This sounds exactly like my daughter and her husband. The husband is a very good provider, good father, responsible, not a womanizer, not a cheater, but is very poor in the verbal department. He will clam up when in a verbal argument because my daughter is like a lawyer, very good at verbal communication, and can present the situation so well that he has to agree or he just shuts down.

This difference has been so intense that it almost came to a divorce. *The bottom line is that she decided that his good points outweighed his bad points and she decided to stick it out especially since they had two children that were loved by both parents.*


How are they?
*Well after 20 years they are MUCH better.* He has improved in the verbal area a bit and she has learned to concentrate on his good points which and significant. During those 20 years my daughter told me that she was right and justified in her requests but that she asked herself the age old question that gets down to the nutty gritty. That question is 
ARE YOU BETTER OFF WITH HIM OR WITHOUT HIM?

In addition she said that she concluded that she will not get everything she wants in a man so she said that she decided to make the best of it. We both laughed as we talked about that old song that had the lyrics of “Two out of three ain’t bad” by Meatloaf in the 1970s

Actually they have been getting better as time goes on.

C2w, I wished that your husband would perform all 5 of your needs to your satisfaction but it appears that may not happen. If he is a good man, and by what you have written in the past he is, then he probably will improve as time goes on.

From what I have read about you and your husband you have a lot going for you both. I hope that you do not throw the towel in as you both have decades and decades of marriage years left and things can be adjusted by both of you and you can get better.

I am not a woman so I cannot relate to you other than through my experience with my daughter but the women on this thread seem t really have some solid advice and they are very experienced and have many years of marriage behind them. 

Remember that song by the Rolling Stones? The one with the title “Time is On My side”? OK OK I know I am showing my age but time is on your side; *do not make any real important decisions just yet concerning throwing in the towell.*


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Take his cell phone and put a daily alarm on that says, "send my lovely, beautiful wife a compliment."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I said I didn't have any answers but after reading COGypsy's post, I had to reply, because what COGypsy said is near enough EXACTLY what my hubz has said to me.

I will offer my perspective and situation up to now.

C2W, I have done to some degree, all of the things you mention. I have gone meeting his needs left, right and centre. All out, in fact.

What I realised - and not very long ago I will say - is that I had actually lost sight of spending time on me FOR ME. So very many of the things I were doing, were I thought for the benefit of both of us but really were for him.

Another example. Years ago I used to live in jeans. I looked good, but hubz said one day, that it would be lovely to see my legs, ie wear a skirt or a dress.

I spent time after that buying skirts and dresses. I actually decided I liked dressing more femininely anyway. But a main motivating factor in my head was that he said that and thought I looked good in them. Which of course I wanted him to think!

Anyway, the other day, I was tumble drying my jeans. Hubz asked why I wasn't dressed, and I explained everything else was in the wash, so I was "just" going to wear my jeans today. He said what's wrong with that, I don't have to wear a dress everyday.

I flipped! I was so confused. I had been making all this effort to wear dresses and skirts, and he didn't appreciate it? He got angry at me. I know he senses my insecurity, and I know he realises that it is due in part to him, but I also know he resents me depending so heavily on him.

The irony is, when I show confidence and that I am not focussing 100% on him, he comes to me more.

The other thing is that constantly having talks with hubz, does not get him to do what I would like. It actually reinforces to him that in so many ways he is "not good enough" to me. For him to respond, "what have I done wrong now?" when I open such a talk, speaks volumes about how he thinks I see him.

I do understand the need for validation from your spouse. It IS different to requiring outside validation for one's self. It is seeking reassurance and affirmation of your SPOUSE'S feelings for you, not for yourself as a whole. I have often said to him that of course HE isn't asking me for abc because he already GETS his needs met. Which he readily admits. He just doesn't always see it that way round. He simply thinks he is being undemanding.

I would suggest a non-confrontational asking him if he finds it difficult to meet your requests, and exploring why. Not as a means of trying to persuade him to change, BUT so you can understand how he thinks differently. Just listen, at a good time, and leave it as that alone.

I like others have suggested, try to focus on the things hubz DOES do to show love. That is the point I am at now. Hubz has a lot of good qualities that I like so I also focus on those. I won't lie, it is hard to resist the urge to change him, or talk to him about it. But I figure he KNOWS how I feel. He tries now and again.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Originally Posted by Created2Write *
> This is hard for me. So many of my friends have overly affectionate husbands *who say things to them online all the time.* I actually had one my friends ask me, "Does he even like you? Are you two okay? You say such nice things to him all the time and he never even comments." That hurt. And it has bothered me ever since.





Dr. Rockstar said:


> Here's what you do with your "friend." I want you to go over to their home, knock on the front door and give them a big fat helping of low-calorie Shut the Eff Up.


Not sure I would go & punch my friend out ....but can surely understand the irritation ......These friends of yours... well, it's really STRANGE for them to go online & talk like that so openly on Facebook ... sounds so boastful ....like







....I'm sure you're not alone in how they "come off" to others. Every marriage has some bad times too. If they can't share some of that too -when you talk... I'd question it all ~ personally.

For instance...I have a GF who likes to praise her husband online, their marriage, thank God for him, all this MUSH...just out of the blue.. no special occasions.... and I know behind the scenes all their relationship woes, how she could care less about sex, he has teared up in front of her, I was even in the middle of one of their arguments sitting in their living room -both going at each other...talk about uncomfortable! One of those moments you just want to crawl under a rock somewhere !! 

So just because people Air their happiness on FB - really doesn't make it all as sweet as honey... So many put on a facade before others, they want to look Good. Don't believe everything you read.

Just seems very High Schoolish to me - what men find time for all of that anyway....it's very odd. 

I throw our Mush once a year (on FB)...our Anniversary day....it's a celebration so I share with friends...I think I had 30 comments -but not one from my husband on there - and it was about him !











> *Tobio said*: I like others have suggested, try to focus on the things hubz DOES do to show love. That is the point I am at now. *Hubz has a lot of good qualities that I like so I also focus on those.* I won't lie, it is hard to resist the urge to change him, or talk to him about it. But I figure he KNOWS how I feel. He tries now and again


Yes....Created2write...Can you List his GOOD qualities that you adore and would be hard pressed to find in another man, things you would miss terribly if he was taken from you ??

There are things I would LIKE from my husband I will never get...like being more aggressive in bed (biggest complaint on TAM about him - my 1st threads..... not going to happen.. (now if I married the more unemotional type, I bet that would be a living BREEZE ... sometimes we just can't have it all)....that's not the type I married....we CAN still talk about it...he doesn't throw me under a bus or get .... but he has admitted feeling pressured by this desire of mine (thankfully this has died down with my raging hormones)......I married the "Making Love" type....I simply can't change his stripes- just cause I felt like it in Mid life.... If anyone has tried, it is yours truly. 

I also learned (by asking).. all the little letters & notes he wrote me in High school (saved every one).... he told me he wasn't crazy about doing that, but he did it anyway... cause well, he wanted to keep me... but it's just NOT "his thing"... I'd rather him be honest with me -than do things he doesn't like -just to please me... the REAL man in the moment...without pressure to perform....when he gives out of his heart....this is what I need to hang on to. 

Every one of us has to decide..."'Is it enough" / are these issues deal Breakers for me.....let's face it....we all have them & they are all different ....in what we need from our spouse. 

If we decide HE IS enough...but the gap is still there hurting us....then it's a matter of mending the inside of us (those insecurities)...and finding acceptance with our spouse...and daily walking in that... otherwise we will fall into a slow growing resentment. 

I know ....easy said.... difficult to do [email protected]#$%










Thought I'd mention this book ... whether you need to go down the Co-dependent road or decide what you are dealing with is....in fact a "Deal breaker"...



> Deal Breakers: When to Work On a Relationship and When to Walk Away:
> 
> This is a book about men. Not all men, just emotionally unhealthy men. The ones who make you question, "Is it him or is it me? Am I making too big a deal out of this? I try to tell him how I feel, but he says I'm overreacting or needy or it's all my fault."
> Relationships are hard work, but how hard should they be? When do you know you are struggling too hard to make a relationship succeed?
> ...





> *Dr. Marshall writes about five personality types that cause 80% of the problems*:
> 
> 1. *The Scriptwriter* (he casts you into a role and forms assumptions about you)
> 
> ...


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I tossed Codependent No More in my gym bag this morning so I could post the quote I was referring to.

Before I post it, as a guy, I want to tell C2W that you need to be aware of pushing too hard. I'll tell you again, you can't change him and he will resent your efforts to do so. State what you want, sit back and focus on being the best person you can be, and observe if he starts making changes to get what you want. You need patience and you need to maintain your inner peace regardless of his actions.




_"It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves,


And it is not possible to find it elsewhere"_

-Agnes Repplier, _The Treasure Chest_


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm gonna expand on this quote posted by SA from the book

_When we surrender, when we’re in a state of acceptance, we relinquish the need to resist ourselves and our environment. That’s when we’re free to cultivate contentment and gratitude_

The flipside of this, is that when you are not practicing acceptance, which is where you are at Created2Write, all the effort you put into the marriage will backfire. You cannot cultivate gratitude or contentment, peace, love, or intimacy. You will forever have this perspective:

"I work harder on our marriage, I put more in, I don't get enough out"

You are not giving from a place of true love. You are giving to get. You will never be at peace with your husband, with your marriage, with your life, working from the place you are at right now.

You are playing the victim right now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I tried to bring up this topic in a non-confrontational way and failed. I was upset, said a lot of things, some of them true, some not, and he got really p*issed.


Did you try to be conconfrontational, or were you upset and said a lot of things?

Can you see how that looks from his side?

C2W, how about you step back for now and just work on educating yourself about how people work? You're asking him to be what he is NOT. That would be like him telling you to stop thinking romantic thoughts. Is that fair?

Read The 5 Love Languages. Tell us what you think about it. That's a great place to start.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> That's not how it works. Think about this in terms of how you relate to your own spouse, because this is something I used to (and still occasionally) have to deal with mine.
> 
> You can't expect your spouse to read your mind and come up with all the ways you want him to share his love for you. That kind of thinking leads to all sorts of relationship problems. Every third thread on TAM is somebody confused about why their spouse suddenly announced they wanted out. The poster thought everything was going along fine, while their spouse has been resentful for years about something for years but chose not to share their feelings with the poster because they expected the poster to "just know" what they needed.
> 
> You can't expect to get anything if you don't ask for it.


 I didn't say she shouldn't expect more from him. I said she needs to work on her self esteem first because her whole life and happiness won't then hinge on whether he brings home flowers, etc. She has to be ok with herself first, and then come to him from a position of strength, not desperation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> My wife and I went through the Five Love Languages
> 
> I primarily use "gifts" as my way of understanding how love is communicated. My wife's primary love language is service. So she would do something nice for me, I wouldn't appreciate it as much as she thought I should, and she resented me for it. It was the same way with me. I could give her something I spent a lot of time picking out and/or designing, but if it wasn't practical or didn't do something for her she couldn't care less, which made me resentful toward her.


Exactly. He loves you, but you don't recognize his love.

For years, I'd give my H tools for gifts, because MY LL is keeping the house in good shape. HIS LL is affection and romance. He'd give me perfume and jewelry, which I couldn't care less about; he was insulted and hurt by the tools. I finally gave up and started giving him clothes and cologne and he's thrilled. I got a gas BBQ grill for Christmas this year. We're both happy now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Saki said:


> You are not giving from a place of true love. You are giving to get. You will never be at peace with your husband, with your marriage, with your life, working from the place you are at right now.


This is SO true. When I first came to forums 10 years ago, I said the exact same things you're saying. He's an ass, he doesn't love me like I want, somebody tell me how to fix him.

What did posters do? They told me to go home, love my H, treat him like gold, tell him what I needed, and LET GO. I kicked and screamed for a couple years (!) about how it was all him, I was perfect, I gave him everything, I did nothing wrong. I even left the forums a couple times cos I didn't like what they all kept tellling me. 

Until I realized they were telling me the truth - I CAN'T change him, I can only make it clear what I need, make sure I'm being the best wife I can, and give him a REASON to want to change for me. I read HNHN, I followed the plan, I gave up trying to change him, and he responded immediately. He was SO beaten down by my unhappiness, SO unhappy himself, that he had withdrawn as much as I had. When I extended the olive branch, told him he was off the hook for providing my happiness, he felt free to then TRY. Until then, he was just the hapless husband (who sounds just like yours) who can do nothing right, so why bother?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Was he always bad with giving you verbal appreciation and affection, C2W?


Not really. When we dated it seemed like he tried much harder to say nice things. He wrote me songs and poems a couple of times a month. He wrote love notes more often. He sent me loving text messages nearly everyday. Now that we're married, things are utterly different and I don't understand why.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If he tried harder early on, then that means that SOMETHING along the way made him feel unsafe in doing it. It's how marriages go - you say something, you get a response that makes you feel unsafe, so you adjust what/how you say the next time. Maybe you just need to talk more. Grease the wheels, start going on walks and talk about everything under the sun, to get him to open up. Ask about his childhood, his goals/dreams, how his life is turning out, stuff like that. Eventually, you can get to the stuff YOU need to hear about, about why he won't follow through.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Created,
I would like to ask you a few questions.

You sound a bit like my wife when we were just married. But of course I had my background etc. So I had to work extra hard.
So this is why I'm asking you these questions.

Do you and your H do lots of non sexual stuff together?[ I mean like fun things , play , dance , workout , cook, take trips, compete against each other etc.]

Do you guys hang out with other married couples?

Are there any fun projects that both of you are currently working on , together?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, I just realized you said he stopped once you got married. That could be an entirely different thing. Many people put on a good face when they are pursuing the other person and, once they know they have them, they just stop acting. Maybe he forced himself to do what he figured you wanted, to reel you in, and then now figures he no longer has to.

After 35 years of being unhappy in my marriage, 20 years of asking him to go to therapy and him literally pretending I never even spoke the words, do you know why he is now going to therapy with me? Because this year, finally, I told him I will NOT stay married to him unless he addresses his problem (negativity) in therapy. He KNEW I was done. And he agreed immediately.

Maybe he needs to hear from you that you will NOT stay in a marriage where your needs are being ignored.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> One last question...
> 
> You've mentioned a couple of times how he is not fulfilling your needs for admiration, but I don't think I've seen how he has fulfilled your general needs. If I were to ask him directly how he IS fulfilling your need for admiration or validation (which I think is the better word for this), what would he say?


Honestly, I don't know. Last night, after asking him if he thought he was doing enough, he said, "Definitely not." And he was being serious. So he knows he's not doing enough, but...doesn't change. 

And he told me last night that he didn't feel I was doing enough for him either. Which, while it sucked to hear it, it was him actually being honest and open. So at least I have a direction for myself now. 



> The fact of the matter is that he'll only put in the effort when he realizes that your worth the effort.


And how do I show him that I'm worth the effort? 



> My wife and I went through the Five Love Languages (actually she read it 10 years ago, and I read it late last year, which should tell you where my head was for the majority of our marriage), so I'll use those terms and hope there's an equivalent term in the book you're reading. I primarily use "gifts" as my way of understanding how love is communicated. My wife's primary love language is service. So she would do something nice for me, I wouldn't appreciate it as much as she thought I should, and she resented me for it. It was the same way with me. I could give her something I spent a lot of time picking out and/or designing, but if it wasn't practical or didn't do something for her she couldn't care less, which made me resentful toward her.
> 
> Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
> 
> Now, in addition to trying to level the playing field for both of us, we're also able to recognize the effort the other has put in. Does this help you at all? Maybe, maybe not. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking your spouse to make a little effort to help you feel special. But it's also important for you to recognize and appreciate the efforts he's already making.


I do appreciate the efforts he's making. But, to me, it feels like when I show my appreciation he assumes that he's doing enough and doesn't try any harder.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, you could always go on strike. When he tells you he won't do anything else, just say 'Fine. You know what? I'm busting my butt to meet all your ENs. I've stopped LBing you. And you STILL won't care enough to ensure I get the same respect. So I quit. I'm on strike. From now on, you can meet all your own needs. I'm done.' And literally stop. Be a roommate. Do a 180. See how he likes it, let him SEE that you WERE doing enough.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

turnera said:


> Well, you could always go on strike. When he tells you he won't do anything else, just say 'Fine. You know what? I'm busting my butt to meet all your ENs. I've stopped LBing you. And you STILL won't care enough to ensure I get the same respect. So I quit. I'm on strike. From now on, you can meet all your own needs. I'm done.' And literally stop. Be a roommate. Do a 180. See how he likes it, let him SEE that you WERE doing enough.


I was going to suggest the same but wasn't sure if it would just compound the problem. 
If he admits that he is not doing enough and he says you aren't then you should just sit down and make a list, actually write it and everyday check on the list and see if he did anything on your list and you can see if you did anything on his list. Then you will know for sure and understand who is doing what and who needs more. If he isn't willing to do this then ask him if he is willing to lose you!
Seems to me if he was willing to do those things before, the only excuse he has now is lazyness and taking you for granted, as long as you are doing your share. 
Anytime I sat down with my husband to try to talk to him about how my needs werent being met, he gave me the whole, "i'm doing the best I can" and "you need to try harder too". he would get defensive and take it personally. Well nothing changed until he thought we were done. 
sure, you can't expect him to be someone he is not as some have stated but sending an email or text to your wife once every couple of days doesn't sound like you are asking him to change that much.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Created2Write said*: And he told me last night that he didn't feel I was doing enough for him either. Which, while it sucked to hear it, it was him actually being honest and open. So at least I have a direction for myself now.


 Yes, you want the open & honest, even if it hurts. It is a matter of you NOT doing (cause you have said you feel you have been meeting all of his)... or a matter of "the attitude" in doing... I wonder. 

Would you say he too, is bothered as much as yourself - about all of this?



> I do appreciate the efforts he's making. But, to me, it feels like when I show my appreciation he assumes that he's doing enough and doesn't try any harder.


 this is the ultimate catch 22.... as your pleasing Feedback makes him feel...it IS "enough".. and to continue saying ..."but it really isn't " - this too can be hurtful on both sides....starting this hamster wheel all over again.


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

Pepper123 said:


> Take his cell phone and put a daily alarm on that says, "send my lovely, beautiful wife a compliment."


Honestly, that's what it came down to with me as well. I had to remind myself to hug my wife at least once a day (to understate it, I'm not one for physical interaction), or remind myself to do little favors for her when she's out of the house. Little things, like washing the dishes or run some errands for her without her asking me to.

It may not feel natural at first, but it becomes natural as your mindset changes. It's a lifestyle choice, like eating healthy or getting daily exercise. What we're talking about here are learned behaviors. The more you do it, the easier it becomes.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I've read the Five Love Languages book. 

I am really confused with all of what you guys are saying. On the one hand I'm hearing that I can't expect him to show me love in a way that is unnatural for him, and I should appreciate the little I am getting, and then the next I'm told to read The Five Love Languages book...why? 

And no, I'm not giving to get. Whenever I do something to meet one of his emotional needs, I do it specifically for him because I know it's important to his emotional fulfillment as a husband. I don't meet his needs so that I can get mine met. I do, however, expect him to meet my needs since he kind of vowed to on our wedding day. Same as a man meets his wife's needs because it's important to her, but he also expects his sexual needs to be met. 

And honestly, I'm a bit peeved. When men and women come here for advice on how to encourage their spouse to respond sexually, they aren't told to just appreciate and accept the little they are getting. Yet that's what I'm being told because my need is emotional? Sexual needs are not more important than emotional ones. 

Anyway, last night was horrible. But after we were able to discuss things rationally, he freely admitted that he has not been trying as hard as he should, and he retracted his belief that I'm codependent. I don't know how things are going to go from here. 

I will try harder to focus on the affection I'm getting, since everyone here seems to think that will help. (Even though I've done that since we started reading HNHN and my number one need still isn't being met, but whatever.) He has been showing more affection. He gives me these wonderful kisses that I absolutely adore. But, at some point, my number one need with either be met or it won't. And I deserve to have it met, and if he chooses not to try, then I'm going to find a man who _will_ treat me how I deserve to be treated.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Created,
> I would like to ask you a few questions.
> 
> You sound a bit like my wife when we were just married. But of course I had my background etc. So I had to work extra hard.
> ...


As far as nonsexual things: we watch movies together, play the xbox together sometimes, or he'll play with the volume muted and I'll read a book to him(we both love this), we go bowling sometimes, we cook together sometimes, we go to the gym at least three times a week(two of those times being yoga class together)...in the summer time we go hiking, we hang out at the park, we go for long drives and listen to our favorite songs(though we haven't done that in ages). 

And no, we don't hang out with other married couples. 

Fun projects? Not really.


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> And how do I show him that I'm worth the effort?


Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything you can do to _force_ this kind of epiphany on his own. He has to discover it for himself, or else it's just you nagging him to do this kind of stuff, which makes him less willing to try.

I'll tell you how it happened to me: For the first several years of our marriage, through one thing and another I was a very hard person to live with. I disliked any kind of physical contact with her and took advantage or her love for me without returning much.

Around 4-5 years ago, two big cysts in her ovaries that we had never knew existed ruptured. She needed an emergency operation that lasted somewhere around five hours. One of the scariest moments of my life. I promised myself that I would not take advantage of her love anymore but return it ten fold. It wasn't easy, and took me a long time to figure out the magic formula. But I did it.

I shared that because that's how deep in the hole I was, and I got out of it. I had to make a personal, intentional mindset change. I realized that my wife had been giving me direct advice on what I could do to show her my love. I was too blind/selfish to realize that at the time. I had to discover it on my own for it to make a lasting impact.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> Oh, I just realized you said he stopped once you got married. That could be an entirely different thing. Many people put on a good face when they are pursuing the other person and, once they know they have them, they just stop acting. Maybe he forced himself to do what he figured you wanted, to reel you in, and then now figures he no longer has to.
> 
> After 35 years of being unhappy in my marriage, 20 years of asking him to go to therapy and him literally pretending I never even spoke the words, do you know why he is now going to therapy with me? Because this year, finally, I told him I will NOT stay married to him unless he addresses his problem (negativity) in therapy. He KNEW I was done. And he agreed immediately.
> 
> Maybe he needs to hear from you that you will NOT stay in a marriage where your needs are being ignored.


Last night I told him that I was considering separating, just to get some time away from each other to think about what we want without the other person around to influence our thoughts. I told him that I couldn't be in a relationship where he wasn't putting in effort to meet my needs. He said he understood. I don't know if it will change anything, but I've never said anything like this to him before. I know it made him really sad. It made me sad to say it, but I felt it needed to be said, right or wrong.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> Well, you could always go on strike. When he tells you he won't do anything else, just say 'Fine. You know what? I'm busting my butt to meet all your ENs. I've stopped LBing you. And you STILL won't care enough to ensure I get the same respect. So I quit. I'm on strike. From now on, you can meet all your own needs. I'm done.' And literally stop. Be a roommate. Do a 180. See how he likes it, let him SEE that you WERE doing enough.


I've thought about doing this so many times. I never have though.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Created

You have had a lot of interesting advice. I do not have a lot to add other than to say that in any marriage (35 years in in my case) there will be times when both parties need patience, perseverance and a willingness to forgive. 

From what you have written I am left wondering whether the difference between the sexes is part of the issue. You women are on average generally more verbal than us men, as you doubtless are aware. Your husband may well have been making a special effort before you married but this does not have to have been 'dishonest' on his part, concealing his true self, which is what some posters seem to me perhaps to be implying. The euphoria of young love does not last as we all know; it could be that which made him more expressive before you got married. After that, yes, it does become necessary at times to 'work at' the relationship as you clearly know.

My wife is reading the Female Brain and has the Male Brain next on her reading list ( I gave them her for Xmas because she is interested in the working of the brain but also because I think we could both benefit, even now, from understanding each other better). I am in the queue to read them after her. If there is anything there I think might be helpful to you I will let you know.

I think there is a lot of truth in the view that men and women differ and therefore can never be perfect matches for each other. Happy marriages seem to me to be based on acceptance of those truths and the realisation that what happy marriages have is an acknowledgement that what the couple has is great, even if it is not perfect.

By the way, all will be very different when the children arrive.

PS I too love Jane Austen and the Brontes, most especially _P&P_ and _Jane Eyre_.

All the best


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> I am really confused with all of what you guys are saying. On the one hand I'm hearing that I can't expect him to show me love in a way that is unnatural for him, and I should appreciate the little I am getting, and then the next I'm told to read The Five Love Languages book...why?
> 
> ...
> 
> And honestly, I'm a bit peeved. When men and women come here for advice on how to encourage their spouse to respond sexually, they aren't told to just appreciate and accept the little they are getting. Yet that's what I'm being told because my need is emotional? Sexual needs are not more important than emotional ones.


We're all coming from different experiences. I've always felt that the object of TAM is not to reach a consensus but to see how others have dealt with similar situations.


> I will try harder to focus on the affection I'm getting, since everyone here seems to think that will help. (Even though I've done that since we started reading HNHN and my number one need still isn't being met, but whatever.)
> 
> ...
> 
> But, at some point, my number one need with either be met or it won't. And I deserve to have it met, and if he chooses not to try, then I'm going to find a man who _will_ treat me how I deserve to be treated.


This is really, _really_ dangerous thinking. I know you're hurting from his behavior and from getting conflicting advice on TAM. But also understand that this is a process for both of you. He doesn't seem willing to try to show his admiration or validation that you need. We don't have a magic formula for how that can be done, but it _can_ be done. But don't start thinking about finding a better man, because when you start thinking about that, you're going to find yourself looking for someone else, whether it's conscious decision or not. Once you start walking down that road, it's going to be awfully hard to divert yourself from it.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, you want the open & honest, even if it hurts. It is a matter of you NOT doing (cause you have said you feel you have been meeting all of his)... or a matter of "the attitude" in doing... I wonder.


I thought that I was. There wasn't a single need that he's listed that I don't meet once a day, or once every other day. He mentioned that I forgot a massage that I promised him on New Years, which I did. I had a friend over for New Years and since we had to use the xbox all day, I promised I'd give him a massage to make up for him not getting the xbox. After my friend left, we immediately left for my parents and didn't get back home until late, so I completely spaced it. But, the next day, he got two massages. One at lunch and one before we went to bed, so I thought that made up for it. 

To him, I guess it didn't. He saw my forgetting the massage at all as a sign that I'm not "trying my hardest". I didn't know what to say, so I promised to try harder.



> Would you say he too, is bothered as much as yourself - about all of this?


I don't know. He gets defensive a lot when these topics come up. Granted, I was really upset last night and definitely did not approach things the right way, so I understand the defensiveness there. I apologized and told him it was wrong of me to get so upset.



> this is the ultimate catch 22.... as your pleasing Feedback makes him feel...it IS "enough".. and to continue saying ..."but it really isn't " - this too can be hurtful on both sides....starting this hamster wheel all over again.


Exactly. I don't know how to handle that one.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> And honestly, I'm a bit peeved. When men and women come here for advice on how to encourage their spouse to respond sexually, they aren't told to just appreciate and accept the little they are getting. Yet that's what I'm being told because my need is emotional? Sexual needs are not more important than emotional ones.


We aren't telling you to give up expecting what you want. We're saying, I think, that you can't just say 'do this!' and then sit back and wait for it, because that is putting YOUR happiness in the hands of another person, and that's just crazy. The one thing I learned most from HNHN is this: If you WANT something from your spouse, you have to figure out what would motivate THEM to want to give it to YOU. You know, since you can't dictate to them to do it cos, you know, they are a human being and not a slave or robot.

Obviously he doesn't think the way you do. He's content so he isn't very driven to change things. So it behooves you to figure out HOW he could come to care more about your happiness. You'll have to sift through all the advice and pick what works in your situation.

Can I very gently try to say something? You are VERY reactive to people who aren't giving you what you want to hear. You're very quick to take us to task for not supporting you. Is it possible that you are this way with your husband as well? That's the first thing that will happen in a relationship, if you react strongly and they feel unsafe being vulnerable around you. You have to remember that he has his own set of feelings and it's just possible that he has decided that HE is the unhappy one here, so why should he change.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> He mentioned that I forgot a massage that I promised him on New Years, which I did. ... But, the next day, he got two massages. One at lunch and one before we went to bed, so I thought that made up for it. ... To him, I guess it didn't. He saw my forgetting the massage at all as a sign that I'm not "trying my hardest". I didn't know what to say, so I promised to try harder.
> 
> I don't know. He gets defensive a lot when these topics come up.


This is what I've been trying to say. He KNOWS you're unhappy. But as a man, he feels uncomfortable trying to approach it in the way you want, as a female would. So he retreats. And then he looks for ways to right the boat, to level the field, so EVERYTHING isn't always all his fault. He is under attack. YOU are no longer safe. And this is what you get when that happens.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

tryingtobebetter said:


> The euphoria of young love does not last as we all know; it could be that which made him more expressive before you got married. After that, yes, it does become necessary at times to 'work at' the relationship as you clearly know.


:iagree:

Created,
Men and women communicate love very differently.
Before marriage both of ypu existed in a romantic bubble of expectancy and promises. You both dreamed of what it would be like after marriage. The house, the baby, the family trips etc. The feelings of euphoria that existed between both of you at the beginning may have shifted into 
** more important things ** like him getting that job promotion, taking care of the bills,actually starting a family , etc.
And so you feel as if you are somewhere second or third or fourth in line.

But basically that's what happens, after being married. Before marriage the focus is on winning and keeping your love and attention. After marriage the focus is on keeping the roof over your head , keeping food on the table and keeping you happy in that order.
In his mind he probably thinks he doing his part and he's confused as to what you want.

In your mind you might be feeling neglected because he's not doing the romantic stuff he used to, or he's not expressing love in the way he used to. And you don't understand why because you're not in his mind. Talking about it only brings on more frustration, because its like you're speaking Latin and he's speaking Arabic.

Am I right so far?


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> And honestly, I'm a bit peeved. When men and women come here for advice on how to encourage their spouse to respond sexually, they aren't told to just appreciate and accept the little they are getting. Yet that's what I'm being told because my need is emotional? Sexual needs are not more important than emotional ones.


So true!! 
I think you are on the right path. Maybe your next step should be to see a marriage therapist and he/she could help him see what he's not doing. Sometimes it helps to hear it from a stranger. If in the case that it is you not appreciating what he does do, as some have said, then she could help you with that. Either way, you shouldn't settle for unhappiness. It only gets worse.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

One thing that usually comes up on men's EN list is admiration. His is in the toilet right now. Many if not most men are never taught how to deal with not pleasing a woman. So they retreat. Shut down even more, which exacerbates the problem. But it's all they know. Why do you think the 'doghouse' is such a common expression? We all know men make women mad and women make them pay for it.

The more I hear, the more I think the only way this will get resolved is in front of a good MC (and I DO mean good - look carefully), who will make it safe for BOTH of you to air your grievances, and who will give you both concrete steps to change the ugly dance you're in.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Dr. Rockstar said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything you can do to _force_ this kind of epiphany on his own. He has to discover it for himself, or else it's just you nagging him to do this kind of stuff, which makes him less willing to try.
> 
> I'll tell you how it happened to me: For the first several years of our marriage, through one thing and another I was a very hard person to live with. I disliked any kind of physical contact with her and took advantage or her love for me without returning much.
> 
> ...


Oh wow. I'm glad your wife is alright. 

I guess I just have to be the best wife I can be, and see what happens.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I guess I just have to be the best wife I can be, and see what happens.


And keep reading books about psychology.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> And no, I'm not giving to get. Whenever I do something to meet one of his emotional needs, I do it specifically for him because I know it's important to his emotional fulfillment as a husband. I don't meet his needs so that I can get mine met.


You've stated numerous times that your primary (or at least one of the) source(s) of frustration is:

the amount of effort you are putting in 

versus 

your perception of the amount of effort he is putting in.

True?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I've read the thread.

Don't think you are going to like what I have to say, but I want to keep it simple.

You have effectively turned 'meeting needs' into score-keeping. That's a bad scenario to be in. You are both doing a 'job' instead of nurturing one another. 

Further you just gave voice to what I was thinking at the outset. You were bothered that he was not responding to your needs appropriately, but you believed that you were meeting all of his fully ... and as he indicated, you aren't ... which in turn made you feel even worse.

Are you happy in the marriage? Is he? Have you had that simple talk?

My piece? You need to back away from this 'needs' stuff for a while. You hate going to the gym? Stop trying to convince yourself that you are doing it for you ... because my takeaway is that you are doing it for him, and it goes on the tally sheet for 'needs'. You aren't meeting a need for him, or yourself for that matter.

You are to be commended for your efforts, but do see them for what they are. If you think you are doing great, and he doesn't agree, and you think he's doing lousy and he doesn't agree, you are creating more friction, not less.

Think of it differently. You thought you were meeting 100% of his needs. He says your not.
Sounds like he is meeting about 80% of yours. Is the other 20% a deal breaker? This is what is important for each of you to figure out.

I could have lived as happy as pig in sh!t if my ex chose to meet 80% of my needs. I could not do so at 10%.

I'm not judging you, but I think both you and hubs have to find a way to reframe this entire dynamic you have built.



Created2Write said:


> Honestly, I don't know. Last night, after asking him if he thought he was doing enough, he said, "Definitely not." And he was being serious. So he knows he's not doing enough, but...doesn't change.
> 
> And he told me last night that he didn't feel I was doing enough for him either. Which, while it sucked to hear it, it was him actually being honest and open. So at least I have a direction for myself now.
> 
> ...


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> We aren't telling you to give up expecting what you want. We're saying, I think, that you can't just say 'do this!' and then sit back and wait for it, because that is putting YOUR happiness in the hands of another person, and that's just crazy. The one thing I learned most from HNHN is this: If you WANT something from your spouse, you have to figure out what would motivate THEM to want to give it to YOU. You know, since you can't dictate to them to do it cos, you know, they are a human being and not a slave or robot.


What peeves me is that I'm not saying "Do this!" to him and sitting back and waiting for it. My whole point was to figure out how to discuss my need and then motivate him to meet it. 



> Obviously he doesn't think the way you do. He's content so he isn't very driven to change things. So it behooves you to figure out HOW he could come to care more about your happiness. You'll have to sift through all the advice and pick what works in your situation.


Right. This is my dilemma. I don't know how to motivate him. About eight months ago I tried meeting all of his needs, ignoring mine and just letting him love me in whatever way was natural for him, and months went by and I didn't get any admiration at all. So the idea of doing that again is really disheartening. 



> Can I very gently try to say something? You are VERY reactive to people who aren't giving you what you want to hear. You're very quick to take us to task for not supporting you. Is it possible that you are this way with your husband as well? That's the first thing that will happen in a relationship, if you react strongly and they feel unsafe being vulnerable around you. You have to remember that he has his own set of feelings and it's just possible that he has decided that HE is the unhappy one here, so why should he change.


You're right, I am. Until last night, I'd been doing really well about being respectful and calm when mentioning things like this. Yesterday was a horrible day and I responded very poorly. And no, I haven't been happy about all of the responses here. And I apologize for my abruptness. I understand that I'm not perfect, and I admitted to being fairly insecure, which I am also working on. Being told that I'm co-dependent and that I need therapy and counciling didn't exactly strike a good chord with me. I, personally, don't agree with either of those things but that doesn't mean I should discount the other advice being given.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Created,
> Men and women communicate love very differently.
> ...


Yes.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Relationships require work sometimes but you can attack it from both directions. To me, your needs seems pretty high maintenance. Like it would be easy for him to try but fall short and then think it's not good enough so why bother. Or feel like his efforts are not appreciated. 

I don't think all needs are created equal. My personal thoughts are if you have trust, honesty, and respect for each other then the other stuff can be managed and compromised some and you should feel blessed. If you do not have these three though then I don't think anything will help.

Most people who've been married for a long time (and are happy) will say don't sweat the small stuff, you can't change someone, be happy with yourself and don't expect someone to make you happy. I'm sure it doesn't feel like the small stuff right now but most of those successful marriages will also say needing validation is the small stuff. It's a state of mind attached to insecurity.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you familiar with PEA chemicals? The 'high' you two were on when you were dating? Well, biologically, it fades away after at most 4 years. It's what kept humans going back in caveman days - desire. Then you're stuck after it's gone with, well, whatever you really had going. 

You can't motivate him if what YOU want isn't what HE wants. You just can't. You could maybe threaten to leave him, but all that will get you is him pretending to care about what you care about, just like with you and the gym. My H could tell me I had to go swimming every day (when I hate water), to keep him, and I might, but I would NEVER embrace it and love it like he does. And for him to expect it of me would be wrong - that would be saying that what I AM is not good enough.

Sound familiar?


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

I've been reading along with this thread, and I really think that the core issues are what these posts address:



Deejo said:


> You have effectively turned 'meeting needs' into score-keeping. That's a bad scenario to be in. *You are both doing a 'job' instead of nurturing one another. *
> 
> Are you happy in the marriage? Is he? Have you had that simple talk?
> 
> ...






turnera said:


> Are you familiar with PEA chemicals? The 'high' you two were on when you were dating? Well, biologically, it fades away after at most 4 years. It's what kept humans going back in caveman days - desire. Then you're stuck after it's gone with, well, whatever you really had going.
> 
> You can't motivate him if what YOU want isn't what HE wants. You just can't. You could maybe threaten to leave him, but all that will get you is him pretending to care about what you care about, just like with you and the gym. My H could tell me I had to go swimming every day (when I hate water), to keep him, and I might, but I would NEVER embrace it and love it like he does. And for him to expect it of me would be wrong - that would be saying that what I AM is not good enough.
> 
> Sound familiar?


There is little joy in obligation and a need to pretend to be someone we aren't.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

C2W.....you seem to be very resistant to the suggestion that you may be co-dependent. Is there a reason for that? From what I understand.....that has a lot to do with NEEDING others in order to feel secure. TBH....(and blunt ) it *does* seem to apply. That's not that you are a freak or that you can't change that about yourself..........but, until you explore the possibility......you won't really be getting any closer to a solution.

This was quoted earlier from the suggested book, "Acceptance is the ultimate paradox: We cannot change who we are until we accept ourselves the way we are. When we surrender, when we’re in a state of acceptance, we relinquish the need to resist ourselves and our environment. That’s when we’re free to cultivate contentment and gratitude." IMO.....that *could* be very helpful for you to absorb (and a step towards huge growth---both personally and in your marriage).


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> To me, your needs seems pretty high maintenance.


I agree.



> "And honestly, I'm a bit peeved. When men and women come here for advice on how to encourage their spouse to respond sexually, they aren't told to just appreciate and accept the little they are getting. Yet that's what I'm being told because my need is emotional? Sexual needs are not more important than emotional ones.


Example its always going to seem like "little" if your needs are high maintantance.Like a person who says they "need sex" every day and they "only " get it once or twice a week.

And you referred to you would be happy to get a "cheesy hallmark card" at this point also demonstrates how picky you are even about the way and how he does these things you need.

Not to mention the threats of divorce and "finding someone else" to give it to you ?You better watch out..He may take you up on that and not only that he can "find someone" that would LOVE a cheesy Hallmark card from him on special occassions and appreciates him for it not consider it "I guess that's better than nothing".. And WANTS recreational time with him and doesn't check that off a list and expect him to pay her back.

And I agree with the poster that talked about not liking to swim but her spouse wanted her too him coercing her into to doing it doesn't make it truly form her heart that she does it not only that its UNLOVING to go down a check list and expect your spouse to leap out of their comfort zone to "make you happy" and then "vice versa" its a mockery of harmony.

Just because you aren't getting what you want exactly how you want it isn't "neglect".And it would certainly be frivelous divorce it you divorced him over it..Which is O.K I don't care..but please acknowledge your belief here of divorce and remarriage as adultery ..as you proclaim on Christian forums.So in that sense threatening to leave Jason to "find someone else" you are conspiring to commit adultery based on your own professed beliefs.And its because you want him to write you a poem or a song and dance around the room with you ?


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

You may really like this series from Chip Ingram (and it's free....just either watch from there or save the Mp3 file and notes). Scroll down to "Experiencing God's Dream for Your Marriage" I think that especially part two would be helpful for you (enjoying the differences):

Television


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> Example its always going to seem like "little" if your needs are high maintantance.Like a person who says they "need sex" every day and they "only " get it once or twice a week.


On the other hand, if your needs are NOT getting recognized and met, they will amplify until it's all you can do to not obsess about them. And they change over time, as things get met. For instance, my H just won't take care of our house. We've had holes in the ceilings from a hurricane leak 5 years ago - still there. So MY need for a well-kept-up home is HUGE. Because he isn't meeting it. But if he started listening and doing what needs done, that need would recede to the back of my mind, and other needs would take center stage. That's just how the mind works.

While she's so centered on him not showing affection, it may seem high maintenance, but to her it's a very real and important need to be met.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm not discussing anything with you dallas. 

Thank you to everyone who gave me their opinions and their advice, however blunt it may have been. You've given me a lot to think about. I still feel that the responses have been a bit unfair. If a man had come here and said the same things I had, only about sex, he would have been given drastically different responses. There have been countless threads about how men shouldn't have to work for sex. Well I feel the same way. I shouldn't have to work for my needs to be met. If it's wrong for a woman to expect her husband to accept however much sex she feels like giving him at any given time, then it's also just as wrong for my husband(or anyone else, for that matter) to expect me to accept however much affection and admiration he chooses to give me. 

I, by no means, expect him to slave over my needs and grovel and beg for my acceptance; I don't expect hours and hours and hours of effort on his part to say just the right thing at just the right time in just the right setting with just the right emotions. I mean, come on. Can't a girl expect her primary emotional need to be met without being told she's high maintenance? And I certainly don't expect to sit back and relax and take it easy while he busts his butt. A lot of people here have made massive assumptions. 

And, for the record, admiration is not the same as validation. I don't need my feelings to be validated. I do, however, need my husband's verbal affirmation. It's my primary love language, so to speak. As a child my parents voiced their affection. Now that they are no longer my primary family, my husband's affirmation is what I, as his wife, need emotionally. Maybe no one else can relate because their primary emotional need isn't admiration. But mine _is_. And it's the one need that he has failed at meeting for years. So yeah, I'm a bit touchy. 

As to why I resist the idea that I'm co-dependent...because I don't believe that I am. Am I emotional? Yes. Sensitive? Yes. But not co-dependent. I am not addicted to my husband, or to his verbal praise of me or his affection. I'm not addicted to anyone's opinion of me, for that matter. (And according to Webster's dictionary, this is co-dependency: "of or pertaining to a relationship in which one person is physically or psychologically addicted, as to alcohol or gambling, and the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way.") Having an emotional need that's important is _not_ the same as being co-dependent. If my husband decided he didn't want to meet any of my needs, I could still be happy as a person. I wouldn't suffer some traumatic psychological and emotional break down. I wouldn't become depressed. Our relationship wouldn't be fulfilling, and the spark in the relationship would die, as it does in any relationship when a spouse's needs go unmet for years. 

Anyway, we talked over lunch and I told him that I would start focusing on his top three emotional needs: recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment and physical attractiveness. If I expect mine to be met, I should meet his too. I thought I was before, but he disagreed. So now I will put more emphasis on it. I told him to think about what he wants to do tonight and then let me know. He said he wanted to go workout, so we're going to the gym. And, contrary to what others have said here, going to the gym _is_ something that I'm learning to enjoy. My husband feels fulfilled when we go together and workout together, and it's certainly improving my health, so why not go? Is it a passion? No. But not everything has to be a passion to do it. 

Anyway, thanks again.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I'm not discussing anything with you dallas.


I never asked you to.I commented on your public post.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like a goodbye.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> On the other hand, if your needs are NOT getting recognized and met, they will amplify until it's all you can do to not obsess about them. And they change over time, as things get met. For instance, my H just won't take care of our house. We've had holes in the ceilings from a hurricane leak 5 years ago - still there. So MY need for a well-kept-up home is HUGE. Because he isn't meeting it. But if he started listening and doing what needs done, that need would recede to the back of my mind, and other needs would take center stage. That's just how the mind works.
> 
> While she's so centered on him not showing affection, it may seem high maintenance, but to her it's a very real and important need to be met.


I actually had a close friend explain this exact thing about a year and a half ago. And I agree. 

And I'd like to clarify as well that I am, by no means, making light of the affection he shows me. I _always_ tell him when I like something he does, and show my appreciation. I am thrilled that the affection has increased some, and I make a point at showing it and telling him so.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

It's not a goodbye. I just put a bunch of thoughts into one post, while at the same time, saying a genuine thank you for the opinions given.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> If a man had come here and said the same things I had, only about sex, he would have been given drastically different responses. There have been countless threads about how men shouldn't have to work for sex. Well I feel the same way. I shouldn't have to work for my needs to be met. If it's wrong for a woman to expect her husband to accept however much sex she feels like giving him at any given time, then it's also just as wrong for my husband(or anyone else, for that matter) to expect me to accept however much affection and admiration he chooses to give me.


I will only point out what has been discussed ad nauseum on forums like this since forums have been invented. Sex is different because it's a physical/emotional/safety issue need that NO ONE but your spouse can meet. You can logic your spouse into texting you twice a day for admiration needs, but you can't expect a woman (or a man) to give up the sex if they feel endangered or whatever else it is that might be keeping them from doing it. You just can't. It's immoral. SHOULD a spouse (wife) give it up for her man? Yes. And I espouse that all.the.time - that no woman should get married if she isn't going to have sex with her husband. And I very often come down hard on women who (occasionally) show up here and say they won't. But to tell a woman who has a reason for not participating in coitus that she HAS to lie there and accept it is wrong.

That said, I utterly believe you need and deserve to get what you want. I just think there are smarter ways to get it. Like reading every self help book you can get on why men act differently than women, or how to improve a relationship, or how to communicate better. Or like taking him to a therapist so the expert can tell him what he needs to do (since he won't listen to you).

Good luck.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Co dependency is defined many different ways. 34 pages of "Codependent No More" are devoted to discussing the issue of defining Codependency. Finally, Melonie Beattie defines it this way:

A codependent person is one who has let another person's behavior affect hm or her, and who is obsessed with controlling that person's behavior.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> I will only point out what has been discussed ad nauseum on forums like this since forums have been invented. Sex is different because it's a physical/emotional/safety issue need that NO ONE but your spouse can meet. You can logic your spouse into texting you twice a day for admiration needs, but you can't expect a woman (or a man) to give up the sex if they feel endangered or whatever else it is that might be keeping them from doing it. You just can't. It's immoral. SHOULD a spouse (wife) give it up for her man? Yes. And I espouse that all.the.time - that no woman should get married if she isn't going to have sex with her husband. And I very often come down hard on women who (occasionally) show up here and say they won't. But to tell a woman who has a reason for not participating in coitus that she HAS to lie there and accept it is wrong.
> 
> That said, I utterly believe you need and deserve to get what you want. I just think there are smarter ways to get it. Like reading every self help book you can get on why men act differently than women, or how to improve a relationship, or how to communicate better. Or like taking him to a therapist so the expert can tell him what he needs to do (since he won't listen to you).
> 
> Good luck.


I will invest in a book about why men act differently than women. I am not against doing everything I can to better understand his point of view. But, without me buying the books and doing the research, none of this would even be discussed between us. I don't think he would ever buy a marriage help book himself. It just hurts emotionally to know that I'm the only one willing to try that hard.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

My goal isn't to control his behavior. My goal is to do as much as I can to make understanding my needs as simple as possible, so that he can meet them. Would I love it if he just sort of "got it" all of a sudden and I didn't have to reiterate what my needs are so often? Yeah, it would be great. But that's, apparently, not the reality I live in. I can deal with that. 

Also, it's inevitable that our spouse's actions and words will affect us. It's unrealistic to think that they won't.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> As to why I resist the idea that I'm co-dependent...because I don't believe that I am. Am I emotional? Yes. Sensitive? Yes. But not co-dependent. *I am not addicted to my husband, or to his verbal praise of me or his affection. I'm not addicted to anyone's opinion of me, for that matter*. (And according to Webster's dictionary, this is co-dependency: "of or pertaining to a relationship in which one person is physically or psychologically addicted, as to alcohol or gambling, and the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way.") Having an emotional need that's important is _not_ the same as being co-dependent. If my husband decided he didn't want to meet any of my needs, I could still be happy as a person. I wouldn't suffer some traumatic psychological and emotional break down. I wouldn't become depressed. Our relationship wouldn't be fulfilling, and the spark in the relationship would die, as it does in any relationship when a spouse's needs go unmet for years.


You seem to want to distance yourself from that "label" and also seem to be using hyperbole to describe it (co-dependency). I think the word "addiction" may be what's triggering that (I could be wrong). It's not that you would crumple into a heap and shrivel up and die without his verbal admiration......but, you are leaning on him (your husband.....and previously, your family) to fill your insecurity. You need to be secure without the admiration of others.....that way you can't be taken advantage of (or mistreated). You'd have a greater sense of dignity. I'll look for another definition....one that doesn't include "addiction" (that may help make it more palatable). NVM......I see that Saki already did.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> On the other hand, if your needs are NOT getting recognized and met, they will amplify until it's all you can do to not obsess about them. And they change over time, as things get met. For instance, my H just won't take care of our house. We've had holes in the ceilings from a hurricane leak 5 years ago - still there. So MY need for a well-kept-up home is HUGE. Because he isn't meeting it. But if he started listening and doing what needs done, that need would recede to the back of my mind, and other needs would take center stage. That's just how the mind works.
> 
> While she's so centered on him not showing affection, it may seem high maintenance, but to her it's a very real and important need to be met.


I didn't just fall off the turnip truck been married 25 years in June had a relationship for 30..And yes Im a person with needs too.Needs can be EXCESSIVE and some can become "obsessed" on excessive needs not being met which most or many wouldn't be able to meet.

Holes in the ceiling that leak from a hurricane 5 years ago is obvious ( to a reasonable person) neglect as to "well kept home" expecting to find no dust everyday with a white glove sweep (because you want NO DUST ) and saying "that's a need" is a little different.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Anyway, we talked over lunch and I told him that I would start focusing on his top three emotional needs: recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment and physical attractiveness. If I expect mine to be met, I should meet his too. I thought I was before, but he disagreed. So now I will put more emphasis on it. I told him to think about what he wants to do tonight and then let me know. He said he wanted to go workout, so we're going to the gym. And, contrary to what others have said here, going to the gym _is_ something that I'm learning to enjoy. My husband feels fulfilled when we go together and workout together, and it's certainly improving my health, so why not go? Is it a passion? No. But not everything has to be a passion to do it.
> 
> Anyway, thanks again.


This is still operating on the system of score-keeping, though. I agree with the poster that previously said that it would be helpful to your marriage if you and your husband framed things differently.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> My goal isn't to control his behavior. My goal is to do as much as I can to make understanding my needs as simple as possible, *so that he can meet them*. Would I love it if he just sort of "got it" all of a sudden and I didn't have to reiterate what my needs are so often? Yeah, it would be great. But that's, apparently, not the reality I live in. I can deal with that.
> 
> Also, it's inevitable that our spouse's actions and words will affect us. It's unrealistic to think that they won't.


And if he chooses *not* to? Would you be accepting of that or is this a deal breaker? (You have already said it was, but I'm not sure if that was "in the heat of the moment" or if you really mean that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> Would I love it if he just sort of "got it" all of a sudden and I didn't have to reiterate what my needs are so often? Yeah, it would be great. But that's, apparently, not the reality I live in. I can deal with that.


You're right. That's not the kind of person you married. So you have to accept that, and NOW move on to deal with the kind you DID marry (not change him).


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't understand how wanting to fulfill him emotionally is score-keeping? It's not like I'm writing down everything I do for him in a journal to throw back in his face later. I genuinely want him to be fulfilled, and spending time together _doing_ things fulfills him. How am I wrong in wanting to do this?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Anonymous1too said:


> And if he chooses *not* to? Would you be accepting of that or is this a deal breaker? (You have already said it was, but I'm not sure if that was "in the heat of the moment" or if you really mean that.


If he chooses not to meet my needs then yes, it would be a deal breaker.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> My goal *isn't to control* his behavior. My goal is to do as much as I can to make understanding my needs as simple as possible, *so that he can meet* them.


 Sounds like control...you're sitting here trying to figure what YOU can do to get HIM to do what YOU want.

I'm on your side, btw. Just think a different frame of reference is in order.

How old are you guys?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> You're right. That's not the kind of person you married. So you have to accept that, and NOW move on to deal with the kind you DID marry (not change him).


Okay, lets clarify what you mean by "change him". Are you saying that I should just accept however much affection and admiration he chooses to give me? Or are you saying that, to get my needs met, I should work with him to help him better understand what my needs are and understand that it likely will never be a "natural" thing for him to do? 

Because I totally get that voicing his feelings isn't natural or easy for him. I don't expect it to ever be. But I do expect him to at least put in effort to make a habit out of it. Like someone earlier said, even the difficult things done often become habit eventually. And I don't expect him to suddenly become some romantic. I get that who I am is not who he is. And I love him for who he is. I don't want who he is to change. I do, however, expect my needs to be met. I mean, it's what we vowed to do on our wedding day. I don't care how hard I have to work to help him, I just want him to put in the effort to.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

That friend of yours who said "does he even like you?", what an immature idiot. I'm sorry she said that to you, I would have been really upset if a friend had said that to me. 

@Dallasapple, it's really bad form to bring up things from other forums to try to tear someone's posts apart. 

C2W he so clearly brought up you skipping one massage as ammunition to defend himself from accepting responsibility for not doing enough for you. My husband used to do this when he was younger. 

I also agree with much of what Deejo wrote. It seems like you and he have built this kind of dynamic where you are each ticking boxes, or keeping records of what boxes are ticked. Instead of freely loving each other and finding lots of joy in expressing that love in a natural way. 

I don't at all think this is your fault, btw, or that you're co-dependent. I have co-dependency tendencies actually; if my husbands in a bad mood I immediately get anxious and upset and assume it's all about me, and that he doesnt love me and is getting ready to leave. I'm getting better though, I now just shut this thoughts down and go and do something else.

People have said your expectations are very high, but so are his. Gym five days a week? Daily massages? Lunch and dinner made for him every day? 

I think, mostly, people will do what they can get away with. And he's obviously well taken care of, even if you're not happy with him. 

I don't know the solution. My temptation is to say pack it in, it sounds exhausting, but I can read how committed you are to your marriage. I suppose, if I was in your shoes, what I would ask myself is this: Can I be happy in this marriage if nothing changes? If this is him, forever? If yes, great. If no, put a time limit on it and work hard, including probably seeing a marriage counsellor, although I don't put much store in counseling generally. If by the end of the time period not enough has changed, then I'd leave.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> Sounds like control...you're sitting here trying to figure what YOU can do to get HIM to do what YOU want.
> 
> I'm on your side, btw. Just think a different frame of reference is in order.
> 
> How old are you guys?


I really don't understand what your trying to get at. Yes, I want him to meet my needs. That's _normal_ in romantic relationships. He can choose whether or not he wants to. If he chooses not to, then he obviously doesn't really want a wife. 

We're both twenty-four, almost twenty-five.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

On the box ticking thing, I think it's the specificity of it. Like 'you didn't give me a massage on NYD". Even though you've been giving him plenty of massages generally. That's why I don't really like those emotional needs questionnaires that want you to put the number of compliments/hugs/kisses you want per day.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Lyris said:


> That friend of yours who said "does he even like you?", what an immature idiot. I'm sorry she said that to you, I would have been really upset if a friend had said that to me.


It was awful. I didn't even know what to say. 



> C2W he so clearly brought up you skipping one massage as ammunition to defend himself from accepting responsibility for not doing enough for you. My husband used to do this when he was younger.


This is how I felt as well. I didn't think it was fair, but he wasn't necessarily "wrong" in what he said so I didn't argue.



> I also agree with much of what Deejo wrote. It seems like you and he have built this kind of dynamic where you are each ticking boxes, or keeping records of what boxes are ticked. Instead of freely loving each other and finding lots of joy in expressing that love in a natural way.
> 
> I don't at all think this is your fault, btw, or that you're co-dependent. I have co-dependency tendencies actually; if my husbands in a bad mood I immediately get anxious and upset and assume it's all about me, and that he doesnt love me and is getting ready to leave. I'm getting better though, I now just shut this thoughts down and go and do something else.


Thank you. I know that this dynamic we have isn't all his fault, either. "It takes two", as they say. But I do believe that I have been trying much harder than he has, and he strongly disagrees with that.

I used to get upset whenever he was upset. But he explained that the last thing he needs when he's having a bad day was to see me upset. He needed me to comfort him in those times, and I learned not to let his moods affect mine. 



> People have said your expectations are very high, but so are his. Gym five days a week? Daily massages? Lunch and dinner made for him every day?


Thank you for this too. It's, frankly, exhausting. But it fulfills him, so I do it. 



> I think, mostly, people will do what they can get away with. And he's obviously well taken care of, even if you're not happy with him.
> 
> I don't know the solution. My temptation is to say pack it in, it sounds exhausting, but I can read how committed you are to your marriage. I suppose, if I was in your shoes, what I would ask myself is this: Can I be happy in this marriage if nothing changes? If this is him, forever? If yes, great. If no, put a time limit on it and work hard, including probably seeing a marriage counsellor, although I don't put much store in counseling generally. If by the end of the time period not enough has changed, then I'd leave.


If nothing changes? No. I wouldn't be happy.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Lyris said:


> On the box ticking thing, I think it's the specificity of it. Like 'you didn't give me a massage on NYD". Even though you've been giving him plenty of massages generally. That's why I don't really like those emotional needs questionnaires that want you to put the number of compliments/hugs/kisses you want per day.


Okay, I see. And yeah, HNHN does have that kind of questionnaire about the few things you want/would like done everyday/every other day/once a week, etc. 

At this point, though, I've totally identified with these emotional needs and have no idea how to even approach things differently. I mean, once you know that a specific thing is, in fact, a highly important emotional need, how do you turn away from it and ignore it? How do you effectively find a new solution that still involves being emotionally fulfilled without that need being apart of it?


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> If he chooses not to meet my needs then yes, it would be a deal breaker.


Specifically the writing of poems or whatever it is that you feel he's lacking in doing right now.....is what I meant. Do you still mean that? 

Because that just seems to me that you aren't accepting him for who he is----you'd rather him be a naturally romantic person (whatever that really is). I think it really was a great example when a poster said that what you are expecting would be like her husband wishing for her to swim each day (when she hates water). It's unfair for a person to ask another to indulge in something that they don't personally embrace.....and, it sends the message that they aren't enough just being their own self. That dynamic can't continue long term. I also think it was a very good question to ask yourself if you *can* continue if nothing changes. If the answer is "no, I can't. That would be relational purgatory" then maybe it *would* be best to divorce (for the sake of both you and your husband).


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> If he chooses not to meet my needs then yes, it would be a deal breaker.


So you would divorce your husband who treats you well and loves you in his own way that is not abusive or even neglectful by any reasonble standards because he doesn't top you off on your super high needs for admiration because you are insecure?

WOW Like I said please post that on a Christian forum.Where you call it adultery to divorce and remarry even over adultery..


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

> People have said your expectations are very high, but so are his. Gym five days a week? Daily massages? Lunch and dinner made for him every day?





> Thank you for this too. It's, frankly, exhausting. But it fulfills him, so I do it.


That's a dynamic I highly disagree with. Love needs to be given freely.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Anonymous1too said:


> Specifically the writing of poems or whatever it is that you feel he's lacking in doing right now.....is what I meant. Do you still mean that?


Oh. Well, not specifically the poems, no. I don't care _how_ he voices his admiration. But if he chose to never meet that need, then yes, I still mean that.



> Because that just seems to me that you aren't accepting him for who he is----you'd rather him be a naturally romantic person (whatever that really is). I think it really was a great example when a poster said that what you are expecting would be like her husband wishing for her to swim each day (when she hates water). It's unfair for a person to ask another to indulge in something that they don't personally embrace.....and, it sends the message that they aren't enough just being their own self. That dynamic can't continue long term. I also think it was a very good question to ask yourself if you *can* continue if nothing changes. If the answer is "no, I can't. That would be relational purgatory" then maybe it *would* be best to divorce (for the sake of both you and your husband).


Again, I don't want him to change who he is and become a natural romantic. That's not what I mean at all. I don't care if it ever becomes something natural for him to do, and I get that it likely never will. But I _do_ expect him to do his best at meeting my needs. I don't think that that expectation automatically means that I want who he is to change. 

Moreover, I know that he is capable of these things. He did them when we dated. He's just choosing not to do them right now. For whatever reason, this need isn't as important to him as I think it should be.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Anonymous1too said:


> That's a dynamic I highly disagree with. Love needs to be given freely.


I don't disagree. I love my husband, he has outlined the things that fulfill him, and even though they're exhausting for me, I still do them because I love him. 

Likewise, I expect the same from him. I don't do those things just so I can get in return, I do those things because I love him. 

How am I not loving freely?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Again, I apologize if I'm being impatient with people. It's a touchy subject, one that I am highly emotionally invested in.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I don't disagree. I love my husband, he has outlined the things that fulfill him, and even though they're exhausting for me, I still do them because I love him.
> 
> Likewise, I expect the same from him. I don't do those things just so I can get in return, I do those things because I love him.
> 
> How am I not loving freely?


It seems that neither of you are giving the other person room to just love in a natural way (there are too many "to do's" on a list). 

What is your line drawn as to what's going to be acceptable to you (I am asking so that you can maybe clarify that in your own mind). You say it doesn't have to be poems.....what *does* it need to be? Maybe he is just as confused as I am about where that line is drawn?


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> How am I not loving freely?


Because you expect something in return.

When you are giving freely, it's not exhausting. You don't even realize you've "given".

Look you can run us in circles for months on end if you want. 

We'll eventually lose interest and stop posting in your thread.

You'll still be miserable and running in circles. 

When will you realize, the view never changes...?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Anonymous1too said:


> It seems that neither of you are giving the other person room to just love in a natural way (there are too many "to do's" on a list).
> 
> What is your line drawn as to what's going to be acceptable to you (I am asking so that you can maybe clarify that in your own mind). You say it doesn't have to be poems.....what *does* it need to be? Maybe he is just as confused as I am about where that line is drawn?


Just his feelings. If he's proud to have me as his wife...what he loves about me...whether I'm beautiful to him...how much he desires me...how lucky he feels to be with me, etc.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Doesn't everyone have expectations in marriage? Doesn't everyone marry expecting to have sex? If they agreed on kids before marriage, don't they marry expecting that, at some point, they will start a family? Having expectations, to me, seems normal. Am I the only person in the world who married expecting the verbal admiration I got before marriage to continue after marriage?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Likewise, I expect the same from him. I don't do those things just so I can get in return, I do those things because I love him.
> 
> How am I not loving freely?


Because not only do you contradict your self by saying if I do "x" I expect "y " back (read your words) its not "just" its "or else" I'll find someone else..operating under those "terms" is not "freely"

Its orchestrated and forced and under "threat" and its the theme.Its manipulating and its sad..I "scratched your back"last night now you "owe me " a poem..Its classic "strings attached".

Not to say there are no expectations of any reciprication or a standard of treatment the poster mentioned above you are HIGH maintanence and your FOCUS is on "what do I get in return".And you narrow that down to making him a sandwich..?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Anonymous1too said:


> I've been reading along with this thread, and I really think that the core issues are what these posts address:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would add NO JOY! Unless we are paid broadway or hollywood then we are still hoping for an oscar .


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> Okay, lets clarify what you mean by "change him".Because I totally get that voicing his feelings isn't natural or easy for him.


To me, this would be like my husband telling me he's upset that I don't care about his engineering crap and that I should start talking to him on a daily basis about why the so and so amperage overrules the yada yada - see? I can't even understand what it is I'm supposed to understand, so I can talk about it!

I used to work in a 401k division of a company, and the salespeople were supposed to 'sell' it to our customers, along with our HR services, our payroll services, etc. Thing is, _none of them understood anything ABOUT 401k_ and they were AFRAID of looking like an idiot, trying to explain it to our customers. So they never did. They showed them all the other services we offered, but _never brought up that we offered a 401k plan_.

If you KNOW he isn't the kind to do affirmations, yet you expect him to do affirmations, you are going to have to show him how. Because it will NOT come naturally to him and he.just.won't. Write out a script. Print out 20 examples of what he can text you. Be specific.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

Yes.....everyone has expectations, but typically it's broader expectations. A person can say....they expect companionship.....acceptance......honesty.....faithfulness.....fidelity. I'm still not quite clear on what your expectation is. Do *you* feel "lucky" to have *him* as your husband (even without the knack for verbal affirmation)....or does that hinge on him verbally expressing those things to you?

Someone else mentioned back in the thread that verbal affirmations aren't natural for them (they aren't really for me, either.....unless something at the moment happens to spur that on). Can you understand that it's not that he doesn't care (most likely).....it's just not coming to his mind (and it makes it a task to expect him to put reminders on his phone). Do you want that? For loving you to be considered a chore (or would you rather it be considered an honor and privilege?)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I really don't understand what your trying to get at. Yes, I want him to meet my needs. That's _normal_ in romantic relationships.


You say you aren't trying to control him. Yet you then dive into WHAT YOU EXPECT HIM TO DO. 

HIM to do. 
Not YOU. 
HIM.

What's YOUR definition of control?


Created2Write said:


> He can choose whether or not he wants to. If he chooses not to, then he obviously doesn't really want a wife.


Did you get the part in HNHN about DJs? Disrespectful judgments? Assuming what the other person wants or feels? VERY damaging to a marriage. You have no idea if he wants a wife, and basing YOUR decisions on what YOU assume he wants or doesn't, without asking him, is dangerous.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

Love freely given means no expectation of a return. It's no strings attached. It would be if I gave you $1000......I wouldn't expect it to be paid back.....it was a gift, not a loan.....not an investment on future returns.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> We're both twenty-four, almost twenty-five.


 I want to point out something. It may or may not apply. But in 50+ years, it's turned out true more often than not. Women mature faster than men. Women want marriages more than men, usually - all that nesting stuff. Men were raised to have fun and let the woman (mom) take care of things.

Put that all together, and you have a young man, barely out of his parents' house, and he's now in a situation in which he feels like a failure, he gets to see your displeasure on a daily basis, he's not 'allowed' (in his mind or in actuality) to just live life and have fun any more, everything seems to now be filled with drama and disappointment...

You say that YOU may not choose this marriage if he doesn't shape up. 

Think about what HE may be feeling at this point.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I do believe that I have been trying much harder than he has, and he strongly disagrees with that.


You know what they say. There is your truth, there is his truth, and then there's the REAL truth.

If HE thinks you aren't working harder than he is, then he's right. For HIM.

If YOU think he's not working hard enough, then he isn't. For YOU.

Somewhere in the middle you two will have to figure out how to compromise.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> But I _do_ expect him to do his best at meeting my needs.


So do I. 

The question is, how can he accomplish it?

That can only be worked out through conversation. SAFE conversation in which you aren't telling him he's a POS (remember, this is HIS perception that matters), where you work together as a team and not adversaries. Role play, maybe? Or a poster board where you both free fly with ideas?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> Just his feelings. If he's proud to have me as his wife...what he loves about me...whether I'm beautiful to him...how much he desires me...how lucky he feels to be with me, etc.


Maybe ask HIM how he can show that. Let him come up with the ways, and you can agree or disagree with them. You say he just nods and agrees and then pretends he never agreed - so get his specific buy in. Like when you make a kid specifically say "I will not steal that candy" as opposed to just telling him not to steal candy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> Am I the only person in the world who married expecting the verbal admiration I got before marriage to continue after marriage?


 I guarantee you, if you went to a mall and surveyed everyone there, you would get MAYBE 5% of the people who even know WTH you're talking about. MOST people go about day to day never once thinking "I've got to show my wife admiration" or "I've got to show I love my husband." They just don't. 

Maybe they EXPECT a level of Giving from their spouse but I KNOW they couldn't come up with specifics like you're wanting.

That's why you need to have a concrete discussion of what you need from him and get a buy-in from him, specifically. He's likely just as clueless as the rest of the world on what a person should do.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

When you describe an ideal marriage, C2W, what does it look like (not specifics, but generally speaking). For instance.....I'll give you mine. I believe marriage ought to be two people that WANT to spend a lot of their time together (but, still are understanding about other interests and friends). I believe that each person should feel the ability to spill their thoughts without judgement or condemnation. I think marriage should be fun....joyful.....and that each spouse should be compassionate towards the other (mourn when the other is mourning). You can then look at certain behaviors and decide whether or not they help or hurt the overall expectations. 

Maybe each of you could start there? Ask each other to write down what that ideal looks like, and then figure out how BOTH of you can work towards it.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTEBut I do expect him to do his best at meeting my needs. I don't think that that expectation automatically means that I want who he is to change. ][/QUOTE]

How do you know hes not?(doing his best?)


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Created,
Maybe you and your H need to hit the " reset button."

Have a look at this.
Together.

John Lennon - Woman - YouTube

And start the conversation over.


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## Anonymous1too (Aug 28, 2012)

To me......it sounds like you're wanting flattery and charm. That's not something I (personally) can do on a regular basis or else it comes off as BS. There are things in a relationship (IMO) that are far more valuable.....like sincerity and just plain kindness. When I walk in the door.....and am tired....to have that understood means far more than any words (and I get that everyone is different). Affirmations can be unspoken, though, is my point.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Created2Write said:* I used to get upset whenever he was upset. But he explained that the last thing he needs when he's having a bad day was to see me upset. He needed me to comfort him in those times, and I learned not to let his moods affect mine.


 Yes...your husband is right on this... a man needs a soothing wife when he walks through the door after work & it's been one of those days. (We all have them!) Sounds like you have turned this around though -as he has explained what he needs.

Me, I am a Huge Romantic, but I don't think I have ever taken his bad days personally. 

When he has them.... I am right there...ready to listen....he needs to vent generally.... Though some men might not want to talk, mine does.... (he knows I want to hear also).... he generally lets out a slew of swear words out about his co-workers or Boss & the details of the low down. I have gotten him to :rofl: after the fact many times after he'd unloaded on me......1st you listen thoroughly ...then you make alot of fun of the idiots that screwed with his day (I know so much about them I have lots to say)... then you ask whatever you can do....and just cater to him extra special that evening....one of those massage nights...perhaps. 

This makes it so they want to come home to us....it's their place of comfort, arms wrapped around them....we ARE our husband's pick up. 



Anonymous1too said:


> To me......it sounds like you're wanting flattery and charm. That's not something I (personally) can do on a regular basis or else it comes off as BS. There are things in a relationship (IMO) that are far more valuable.....like sincerity and just plain kindness. *When I walk in the door.....and am tired....to have that understood means far more than any words (and I get that everyone is different). Affirmations can be unspoken, though, is my point*.


 Some men want quiet, they need their Man Cave...no words, no fuss, let them wind down -kick up their feet, I've seen many posts like this ....each man is different.










I want to say something about being *High Maintenance*.... I think we are ALL high maintenance in one way or another...

There are ways I consider myself High Maintenance - they are in Romance, touch (including sex), honesty & time... but you take another woman... she could be High maintenance...in how you talk to her (maybe she gets offended by everything)....so you have to walk on egg shells, maybe she'd throw a hissy fit if she broke a nail, or got a drip on her new outfit, God forbid if she had to walk in her heels in the snow...expects her man to be rich...would turn her nose if his car was older...if he didn't take her to the classiest restaurants...

Let's get real people... we all have what is important to us. 

I wouldn't care if I lived in a the middle of the woods, the man had a lower income job, a beat up pick up truck...so long as we could pay our bills & had LOVE... I'd still be happy!! ... so in some ways...I am damn low maintenance... I could care less about gifts/ presents.... I mentioned in an earlier post, I'd be more excited over a written letter than diamonds -- I think many guys could handle that ~wouldn't you say!

I don't mind working hard, getting my hands dirty, tool belt wrapped around my waist, knees in cement....I've never had long finger nails, wouldn't waste my $$ on half the things other women do... I'd be a damn cheap date! But yet.. I want those other things....It is what it is. We all feel strongly in certain areas.. ...in what makes us TICK.... and brightens our days...

Now what makes us decent loving people, a good WIfe /husband material....is if we're also willing to give AS MUCH back ...working it all out -for the ones we love. Though this is easier when we want the same things. If not.....it's just harder all the way around....what we are seeing here in Created2Writes dilemma. 

We are who we are....we crave what we crave, how to change who we are, I don't know if it can be done -without some numbing, stuffing, denying or just throwing ourselves into something else to take the edge off.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would like to point out that men grow up having fun. Their parents send them out to have fun. Their parents sign them up for sport after sport after sport. Even if he's not into sports, he's still expected to just have fun. MAYBE he'll be taught to make his bed. Their mom takes care of every single need in his life, while his dad looks on in approval. He comes to puberty, and his focus turns to getting sex and being one of the boys and STILL having fun and getting sex and talking about sex and talking about how to nail the girls and how to smooth talk the girls and how to brag about how many girls you get. 

By the time he's 18, he's in full-blown get the girl mode - it's all about being smooth and suave and getting the ladies and getting laid and - having fun.

By the time he's 25 he may or may not be engaged or married, but he's still revolving around fun and sex and girls and looks. He may have pursued marriage, but the typical 25 year old man is expecting marriage to be FUN. I guarantee you, he never put ONE moment's thought into having to 'work' at marriage.

So here he is, finding with every day that he is failing more and more at this marriage thing. It's no longer this fun time he expected with his partner. It's just a sinking quagmire of doing wrong and doing more wrong and...what the hell am I doing here?

Keeping in mind that a man usually wants little more than to be admired, and the one person he expected to admire him most finds him a big enough failure that she's willing to LEAVE him if he doesn't buck up, boyo. And he still doesn't have a clue what she's talking about, and she's expecting him to turn into something completely different than what he thought he was.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTE Their parents send them out to have fun. Their parents sign them up for sport after sport after sport. Even if he's not into sports, he's still expected to just have fun. MAYBE he'll be taught to make his bed. Their mom takes care of every single need in his life, while his dad looks on in approval. He comes to puberty, and his focus turns to getting sex and being one of the boys and STILL having fun and getting sex and talking about sex and talking about how to nail the girls and how to smooth talk the girls and how to brag about how many girls you get. ][/QUOTE]

That is DEFINATELY not how I raised my sons.I don't beat my chidlren but I would have I "think" if they had acted like that.That is disgraceful .


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, I didn't mean he TOLD his parents he was all about getting sex. Most boys don't.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

C2W,

I've tried to read all the posts and replies so if this has been suggested already I apologize.

I really feel that maybe your desire to have your needs met has become the focal point of your marriage rather than simply being together and enjoying each other. I'm really getting the feeling that your husband feels like he is constantly bombarded and under attack. I know that is not what you intend but maybe he is defensive because he feels like he has to be.

I'm going to suggest a little time out here. Take things slower and really try to see if he is making any effort without any prodding on your behalf. Often when you are constantly chasing someone they continue running away from you. If you stop chasing they stop running. Then they look around and can see where they are and where they should be. Try it and see if defusing the situation helps at all.

Another poster suggested you go on strike. I'm not going to suggest that because I think that will just create more tension. What I am going to suggest is this. If after you stop talking about needs being met and give your husband some time and breathing room to digest what he has heard and learned you don't see him making more of an effort....withdraw emotionally. You should continue to do the things that you know are important but don't do them enthusiastically. Keep making his dinner, giving him massages, going to the gym, or whatever but talk less, smile less, don't even bother arguing at all. Just withdraw within yourself for a while. Act like a Stepford Wife if that helps with the imagery. The only need I would say that you don't withdraw from is sex and that is because you need to keep that connection between the two of you going. If you break that connection he won't be looking in your direction and will feel less empathetic to your situation.

I suggest this because I know in my marriage I can tell when something is bothering my wife. If she isn't talking about her problem I often give even more weight to it than I otherwise would. Sometimes if you complain about something a man can see that as venting. Women tend to be emotional anyway. Well certainly more emotional than men. So if you are arguing or complaining we often see it as emotional vomit and just let you get it out of your system. But if you withdraw emotionally it tends to get our attention more because it is out of character. So we sit up and take notice. Sometimes a whisper is louder than a shout.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> ________________________________________
> The summary below is what C2W said about her husband meeting her 5 needs:
> 
> *Admiration* very little
> ...



In later posts C2W stated that her husband said that C2W is not meeting all his needs. If neither one of you are meeting ALL each other’s needs then the question will eventually be; *are the needs that are not met so serious that a separation or divorce is the path to take?*


For many that have posted a response to C2W they do not believe that the needs not met are so serious as to warrant separation or divorce. However, C2W is not the same as any of us and has stated her position that at some point her husband either meets her needs as she has specified or she will find another man that will. See C2W statement below


> Quote of C2W
> But, at some point, my number one need with either be met or it won't. And I deserve to have it met, and *if he chooses not to try, then I'm going to find a man who will treat me how I deserve to be treated.*


C2W you are a woman that has every right to make your own decisions and I know that we have no power to change your decisions. The only thing that I can do is to try and influence you to not rush into anything so drastic but to let time see if it will make things better.


Marriage usually has two people that have selfishness and baggage as some of the things that they bring into the marriage. *With selfishness and baggage the chances of each person meeting each other’s needs 100% are slim to none at age 25.* That also goes for each person trying their best 100% of the time. They may give it 60-80% but rarely hit the 100%. Even if they do hit 100% it last only a very short time. 

That is what I have seen in my observation of marriages over the last 40 years. Of course this is my observation and may not be 100% accurate for all marriages. I just think that C2W and her husband have too much going for them to think about finding another mate after just a few years or even 5 years of marriage. With each other’s needs being met 60-70%, I would encourage them to give the marriage at least 10 years to see if there is any improvements.

*C2W, do you know of any married couple that does their best 90% or 100% of the time to meet each other’s needs?* If you do please share with us the specifics on how they have been able to do that.


I hope that your husband and you find a way to improve on meeting those needs for each other that are not sufficient. I do know that it is very possible to improve in those areas as time goes by but sometimes you have to wait years before you start to see those improvements.

I will stop with a reprint of what I said in an earlier post and hope that you will use time to your advantage.



> Remember that song by the Rolling Stones? The one with the title “Time is On My side”? OK OK I know I am showing my age but time is on your side; *do not make any real important decisions just yet concerning throwing in the towel. *


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

First, I really want to commend you for taking the steps you have taken at such a young age, to be so emotionally aware in nurturing and preserving your marriage. That deserves nothing but praise.

I'm very sorry if this thread has felt like a beat-down. As you can see simply within the context of this thread ... people get caught up in communication dynamics.

I'm not looking to mock, criticize, or tell you that you're doing it wrong.

To be very clear, I want you to succeed and feel fulfilled in your marriage.

So ... you mentioned earlier about roles being reversed, and if you were a guy that came here and was not having his sexual needs met. So let's just go ahead and do that. 

Poof. You're a dude. And lo and behold, your sexual needs are not being met by your wife.
(Please note that the following is intended for informational, and hopefully humorous purposes and has no relationship with any persons sex life, living or dead)

The issues you face are indeed virtually identical to the guy whose wife used to have sex with him frequently and enthusiastically, and once the relationship became settled into marriage, the sex has dropped off to the point where you feel neither fulfilled, nor loved.

The risk that you take in directly and clearly stating that you 'need more sex', is that you actually make your partner even LESS inclined to meet your request, because the request is now perceived as an obligation that you want from them, rather than a desire on their part to fulfill your need.

You need to exhibit less of the behavior that is emotionally pushing your spouse away. The mistake most guys make, is that they pour on more of the same ... and effectively push their wives further away rather than making them want to be closer.

You end up with the analogy of the 'Runner and the Pursuer'. Basically the harder you try to get the thing that you want from your partner, the less they are inclined to give it.

The response that you get from your wife, is that you are not meeting her needs ... in spite of your asking what they are and how you can meet them, and genuinely trying to do so.

I call this 'changing the goal posts'. You believe that you are meeting their needs , or trying to, and you still see little effort on their part to reciprocate. And if you bring that point up, the withholding partner simply tells you that 'they aren't feeling it' or may make additional requests of you to create circumstances where they feel the desire to give you what you need.

You continue to work at it, they change little to nothing about their behavior, and grow exasperated because you keep bringing up 'sex'. Basically, the issue persists because of your action and has little to nothing to do with their inaction (from their perspective).

So ... stop bringing it up. Be upbeat, continue to be respectful, but start dialing back the level at which you engage your wife. Start looking for ways to fulfill yourself outside of the scope of having your wife meet your needs. After all, there was a time when that's exactly what you did. Make your own plans, pursue your own interests. Build up your sense of self ... apart from your spouse.


Apply the Golden Rule. Treat your spouse as you insist on being treated. Which means if your wife expects a full body massage every day as an indication that you still love her, but she then says "thanks" and rolls over and goes to sleep ... you stop offering or giving massages.

This is not the same as score-keeping. This is re-balancing and realigning.

If you continue to offer affection, support, affirmation and acts of service without having your needs or wants met or addressed ... you reduce the value of your love. 

Take a look at this thread for reference:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

The goal here is to make a simple determination; do you have a spouse who can and desires to work on the marriage to the mutual satisfaction of both parties, or a spouse that is simply paying you lip-service, while fully expecting that you continue to meet their needs. If so, you don't have a partner.

And by taking these steps, you will get that answer. 

I truly hope that despite this advice being somewhat sideways ... that it makes sense to you.

Bottom line, this cannot work over the long term if you are the only one working at it, and he can't give you what you need.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

C2W, I stayed off your thread for the last day or so in order to avoid sounding like I was pressuring you and to just see what developed. I've just come back to catch up, and there's so much I'm seeing and my heart is aching for you. 

I know you're genuinely distressed and that you sincerely love your guy. I also see where you're going through the same exact questions I've gone through in my life, and how you're getting the same responses I got because you're responding very similarly to the way I did. 

There are so many conflicting ideas to try to bring together: 

Shouldn't a man try to please his wife? (YES) Should she be able to tell him how? (NO) Isn't it reasonable to have certain expectations? (YES) Am I wrong for having expectations? (YES) Shouldn't my needs be met? (YES) Yet everyone's telling me I'm doing things wrong! (YES) People say I sound codependent (YES) but couples must have some dependence on each other (YES) ..... None of it doesn't seem to make sense, I know, and that's what you want and need to find. I spent about three decades finding those answers. I truly hope you can learn faster. 

You told me you disagreed with my posts, and I made a comment to let me know how that worked out for you, and that I hoped you found the key. Your very next post was about the blowout you had with your guy, and soon after that, how you told him you're thinking of separating. You're going in the wrong direction, my dear!! 

You're frustrated because you feel like you keep giving and not getting enough. You have an immediate, hostile idea of codependency and seem to believe it's an addiction. In extreme cases, it can be, but at its core, codependency boils down to "depending upon another for something that person is incapable of giving when it's wanted/needed." 

EVERYONE has codependent traits, and a small degree of it is necessary for healthy relationships - what would be called "interdependence" among therapists. Your questions about how to meet your emotional needs for admiration circle around the difference between healthy dependence and unhealthy dependence.

If you have a strong need for admiration AND you put all your needs for that into one basket (your husband), when you *could* get it from others, you're probably venturing into an unhealthy expectation. I believe you have done this. 

When you start to move into that unhealthy territory, it might work out ok. Your partner might be talented at providing what you need. But if they aren't, the healthy thing to do is to accept and love them as they are and turn elsewhere to meet those needs in ways that don't betray your relationship (like the volunteering I mentioned previously.) The unhealthy way to respond to their lack of talent is to use criticism, blame, ultimatums, threats, or manipulations. 

It strikes me that you've used a few unhealthy ways to try to make your husband be talented at doing something he's not talented in. One of the unhealthy things you're doing is going out of your way and pretending to be something you aren't in order to motivate (manipulate) his responsiveness. When it doesn't work and you're feeling left unsatisfied, you sometimes reach a point where you blow a fuse. In this most recent example, you used a double-bind question: "Do you think you're doing enough?" 

I believe he felt trapped. If he said yes, you'd have felt unhappy. If he said no, at least he had a hope of mollifying you, but either way, the question itself, no matter how you worded it, was a veiled attack in his eyes. Even if you were honestly seeking to consider that he might be doing enough, he doesn't feel safe being open and honest about it because by now you've had enough of these conversation that he knows EXACTLY what it's about: you think he's failing. No matter what he says, he will be in the wrong and he knows it, which is why it's a "double-bind" question.

This same exact dynamic is what you saw when he retracted his codependency statement. You want honesty and openness from him, but when he gives it to you, you've got a knee-jerk reaction that shows him that you think he is wrong. This knee-jerk reaction is a hallmark of an intelligent, emotionally tune-in, codependent person or an adult child of an alcoholic/abusive parent, by the way. They have been through enough that it doesn't take a moment for their brain to perceive, interpret, and translate events into a conclusion that jibes with their perceptions of the world. You've had the same kind of immediate rejection of what others say many times in your posts in this thread. If you don't believe me, please go back and re-read your posts while asking yourself, "HOW do I appear to others? Do I seem like I am receptive or judgmental?" 

I've noticed throughout your thread that you don't "filter" your thoughts. I don't naturally filter mine, either, and I can tell you that this is at the heart of much of the problems you're experiencing. Your husband isn't only a non-verbal communicator, he's also the person who knows you best. Even when you think you're being "nice" about things, he knows how your mind works and what you are really thinking more than you realize and a heckuva lot more than you THINK you are showing. 

If you truly want to work on your relationship, I'd tell you throw the books away and do this instead: Make a list of your resentments about your husband, and the reason you resent the thing you listed. For instance, your list might describe the cause of resentment as, "I resent that he did not text me something nice today" and the reason as "He didn't care enough about me" or "I didn't feel loved." 

If you're interested in getting fast answers, try this, and once you have your list, I'll tell you how you can use it to repair your marriage. 

The last thing I will mention is about validation vs. admiration. You are right that they are different. I hope this question doesn't offend you, but it's a valid one to ask: What exactly do you deserve to be admired for?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

There's a huge distance between *his nature and your needs*. I think most women would find a man who acts the way you're wanting him to act as needy, clingy, and emotionally dependant upon pleasing you. *I suspect your husband doesn't like the beaten down feeling when he's being a good boy*. The prototypical nice guy.

The good news is this is American so there's no shortage of nice guys. The bad news is you're husband may not be one of them. Be careful what you ask for. He may be molded into the dream guy only to become unattractive to you for no reason.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

turnera said:


> By the time he's 18, he's in full-blown get the girl mode - it's all about being smooth and suave and getting the ladies and getting laid and - having fun.
> 
> By the time he's 25 he may or may not be engaged or married, but he's still revolving around fun and sex and girls and looks. He may have pursued marriage, but the typical 25 year old man is expecting marriage to be FUN. I guarantee you, he never put ONE moment's thought into having to 'work' at marriage.
> 
> So here he is, finding with every day that he is failing more and more at this marriage thing. It's no longer this fun time he expected with his partner. It's just a sinking quagmire of doing wrong and doing more wrong and...what the hell am I doing here?


 We only have 1 so far over 18.. he is nothing like this at all. Although he enjoys FUN, has even done some outrageous things...he's one of the happiest people we know....he rounded up a bunch of friends & did door to door Christmas Caroling this year (last year too)...they had a blast... it's clean FUN.... he doesn't try to get into women's pants ....he takes some beauties to the movies on a regular basis - but not the backseat... he is a Romanticist who is waiting for 1 special woman to love & give his all. He looks forward to marriage & it's Joys of pleasing the one he commits too ~ Just as his father did in his youth. 

But right now...his life revolves around College, making Music, helping others & his friendships ~ not getting laid. And no, he is not Gay....not by a long shot.



dallasapple said:


> That is DEFINATELY not how I raised my sons.I don't beat my chidlren but I would have I "think" if they had acted like that.That is disgraceful .


 Yeah...We raise ours to respect women .. I know they look up to their Father's example..... I'd be really surprised if any of our sons would be this way.... Got a few more to go.... I can tell by the 1st 3... they are the Marrying type, faithful & true and wouldn't have sex without Love.... It's just not in their makeup.

I know, we're all a little weird here....not falling into modern society's expectations/norms. 



Thundarr said:


> There's a huge distance between *his nature and your needs*. I think most women would find a man who acts the way you're wanting him to act as needy, clingy, and emotionally dependant upon pleasing you. *I suspect your husband doesn't like the beaten down feeling when he's being a good boy*. The prototypical nice guy.


 This is probably true







... I feel she would be better off with a Beta male myself...have thought that for some time. ....But she loves him... so this is what she has to work with.

This situation is why I prefer Betas over Alpha's any day ..... but I don't care for the Clingy connotation & emotionally dependent comments...I've never looked at my husband that way...He's never lowered himself to act clingy before me ... nor has he looked at me this way....if he did... I would be very very hurt..... he desired *a lot* more of me in the past ... so he'd never call me clingy...And I love love love the way he is....I'd never change it for a second, nor have I grown bored with him. There is a place for Beta males too...if they are matched with the right woman ~ who dearly appreciates what they are made of. 



> The good news is this is American so there's no shortage of nice guys. The bad news is you're husband may not be one of them. Be careful what you ask for. *He may be molded into the dream guy only to become unattractive to you for no reason*.


 Unfortunately...this part is very true, the majority of women DO get bored ....so sad really.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Take a look at this thread for reference:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html
> 
> ...


This I feel is excellent excellent excellent advice ~ spoken from the source of all wisdom Deejo ... a great place to start... change those dynamics & see where it leads Created2Write.

This should give you - your answer. 

One can surely flip this around...comparing to the husband seeking more Nooky & half climbing up her butt to get it -turning her way off from him ~ comparing this to the wife struggling to get her emotional needs met ~ where HE is feeling pressured -making him want to back away. 

That Thermostat link can be used either/or.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I don't disagree. I love my husband, he has outlined the things that fulfill him, and even though they're exhausting for me, I still do them because I love him.


I personally don't see it as loving to expect your spouse to exhaust themselves to meet your daily needs.If two people have to exhaust one another ongoingly to satisfy each other is like a contradicting statement.Maybe I'm different but one of my needs I guess is for my husband to contribute to making my life easier not more difficult and i wouldn't feel very loving if new I was exhausting him to get my needs met.If you have to do that then you are poorly paired.

The good things we do for one another in our relationship shouldn't emotionally or mentally physically drain us unless you are dealing with a situation that's very trying or difficult.And that should be to resolve the situation or conflict.But for the most part mutually loving each other in day to day acts and words should not feel like carrying a weight.Because its so against your grain or nature.And you shouldn't expect things out of your spouse that do because that isn't loving. On some level we should actually feel joy ourselves and lighter not heavier showing love.

You quoted do unto others as you would have them do unto you.I wouldn't want my husband to expect me to exhaust myself so I don't expect him to.

IOW there is nothing about mutually exhausting each other that's good.With the exception I would say of both being physically exhausted after great mutually satisfying sex.And even then that's emotionally spiritually and mentally uplifting if you both love each other and are treating each other right.Other than that the goal should be to avoid exhausting each other showing love.

But that's just my opinion.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I've been married to my wife for quite a while now. There are many things she doesn't do and even more that she does once in a while but I would be happier if she did them more consistently. But they just aren't natural for her to do. Its just not her so when she does do them I find I appreciate them because I know its not in her nature to do them. Do I get frustrated with her from time to time? Sure but I think we all do to some extent. Do I wish she would change to be more like "the woman of my dreams?" No because her faults and weaknesses MAKE her the woman of my dreams. They are who she is and that is the person I fell in love with. If I changed her she wouldn't be my wife. Sometimes true love is learning to not just accept the faults and shortcomings of our spouses but to embrace them as who they are and learning to love that about them too.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

bfree said:


> C2W,
> 
> I've tried to read all the posts and replies so if this has been suggested already I apologize.
> 
> ...


I agree about the stop chasing him part.But if she emotionally detaches from him how at the same time could they enjoy EACH others company?And also do you realize she would probably have to go to some sort of hypnotherapy to be emotionally "withdrawn and inside herself but suddenly "turn back on " to have enthusiastic emotionally mentally present sex and then back to emotionally withdrawn when that part was over?

Also how do you know if she did this.Continued doing everything he likes to do and she continued to do acts of service for him but stopped talking (as much so be his "quiet companion) smiling "less" then had had enthusiastic sex when he wanted he wouldn't just like her that way?He might even think she "got over' her problem.Where she is stuck emotionally detached switching back on just for sex?(even if that's possible for the average person)

He also may think her quietness but mainly the not smiling as much is her punishing him ..or that she is being a pouty baby.And still a type of manipulation to get what she wants.

Overall though it kind of sounds like "shut up do what I want and have sex".

Maybe she should just get a lobotomy?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

bfree said:


> I've been married to my wife for quite a while now. There are many things she doesn't do and even more that she does once in a while but I would be happier if she did them more consistently. But they just aren't natural for her to do. Its just not her so when she does do them I find I appreciate them because I know its not in her nature to do them. Do I get frustrated with her from time to time? Sure but I think we all do to some extent. Do I wish she would change to be more like "the woman of my dreams?" No because her faults and weaknesses MAKE her the woman of my dreams. They are who she is and that is the person I fell in love with. If I changed her she wouldn't be my wife. Sometimes true love is learning to not just accept the faults and shortcomings of our spouses but to embrace them as who they are and learning to love that about them too.


It depends on what the fault is other than that I kind of agree..Also something not being in someones nature at least what we are talking about here isn't a "fault" or a weakness.Especially not just because your spouse would like it to be or not be in their nature or they wished it was more in their nature than it is.Its merely a difference.

What C2W's husband in this case doesn't have in his nature or not to the extreme she wants isn't a "fault" or a "weakness" he has.If anything her need or ALL our needs are what makes us weak or indicates we are vulnerable and dependent.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Created

One more thought. 

Your husband is still a young man. The sort of skills you are looking for are more to be found among older people. To some degree he may develop them over time.

Men develop differently, I think, to women. In my case, for example, I really did not enjoy theatre until I was forty, did not really see the point. Then, I suddenly did see the point (greater life experience) and became an avid fan.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly. A 25 year old man is barely out of his parents' house. Men mature more slowly than women, usually. He's just now getting out of the look for fun stage and into the I want to be a mature family man stage, likely (some may differ). So, while what you want is a valid need, he may just not be at the stage to understand it OR be ready to give it to you the way you want. Communication will help with that. The more the better. In a safe way that he doesn't feel like a failure and that marriage isn't as fun as he expected.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And remember women typically grow up daydreaming about getting married and having kids and running a house and romance. Show me any guy under 15 who's even thought about what romance really is or why he should have it. It comes MUCH more automatically to you than it does to him. That's why the previous advice of giving him very specific ways to show you love will help. Either that, or read Five Love Languages together, maybe, so he gets it.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh and to add a personal note.There have been times when we have had a conflict in marriage an issue I wanted to hash out that was reasonable to want to resolve.My husband wasn't going to bend if it was my complaint or need in cases and I did exactly what you are talking about( E.T.A BFREE's suggestion.).either a) he asked me "whats wrong" and in that case all you have done is manage to get the topic back on the table and I would hear "your not over that yet or I'm done discussing that (even though he asked ME "whats wrong?) Other times he pretty much knew what it was and as I mentioned above again did not cause him to want to reevaluate but he considered me to be acting like a "big baby".Not only that trying to interact with him while actively trying to "stay inside" was a complete mind twist but again he wouldn't say "lets work on this issue" he would say "if you are going to act like that then just never mind.(Like go to dinner with him and not "smile " or laugh be sort of "flat" (NOT WHO I AM)..I was either acting like a baby and or punishing him and or needed to "get over it" .Other times he just "stonewalled" and withdrew himself.And neither one of us talked for days until one of us "broke the ice" (usually me).Now stonewalling is what I expect actually rarely do I hear "whats wrong" If I'm "inside myself".Because he knows whats wrong..he doesn't want to discuss it and its my problem I need to "get over it"..Oh and for him having sex MEANS "Im over it".Those were times where I had sex with him an issue important to me ongoing unresloved and I would be "sullen"after having sex(bascially depressed) he would ask "whats wrong" and I told him and I got the "thought you were over that" remark.

by the way we have been married almost 25 years that why I have so many "other times' in there LOL!!!And many of those times were over the same issues that never were "settled".Most of our issues were symptoms over a few "main" critical areas.Including C2W exact delima bur for different reasons including my husband rarely said uplifting encouraging or validating statements or statements of admiration but INSTEAD he invalidated me discouraged me and seemed to admire little about me by making those negative comments ...but then he would say he loved me(and everyday sometimes several times a day)...eventually I was begging to know WHY?(besides you're sexy and hot and I love "making love" to you .

RANT...LOL!!!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

turnera said:


> And remember women typically grow up daydreaming about getting married and having kids and running a house and romance. Show may any guy under 15 who's even thought about what romance really is or why he should have it. It comes MUCH more automatically to you than it does to him. That's why the previous advice of giving him very specific ways to show you love will help. Either that, or read Five Love Languages together, maybe, so he gets it.


And that's sad because the boys should have learned plenty what romance is from their dads example.And besides it isn't just romance.Its not "romance" to tell your wife she's a wonderful cook..or I'm proud to have a mother like you for my children...or great job ...or I appreciate all you do and the sacrifices you make..or keep your chin up I know you can handle that your a strong person...OR "empathy" yep I know that sucks ..or sympathy ...(taking your side) validating your feelings.Thats not romance..thats emotional support and words of encouragement and knowing hes on YOUR SIDE and goes through to an extent it with you ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How many young men do you think have ever had a talk from a mom OR a dad about thanking their wife for dinner? Probably not a lot. And how many people who've been married 10 to 20 years still thank each other or compliment each other? Not many, they just get comfortable with each other and don't need the constant reassurance to know they are loved and wanted. So I'm thinking there really aren't a lot of opportunities for a 20 year old guy to 'learn' to be what C2W is looking for. To me, it's more of a girl thing.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

turnera said:


> How many young men do you think have ever had a talk from a mom OR a dad about thanking their wife for dinner? Probably not a lot. And how many people who've been married 10 to 20 years still thank each other or compliment each other? Not many, they just get comfortable with each other and don't need the constant reassurance to know they are loved and wanted. So I'm thinking there really aren't a lot of opportunities for a 20 year old guy to 'learn' to be what C2W is looking for. To me, it's more of a girl thing.


yes some of the stuff she is talking about and her high need for it is a girl thing and its excessive IMHO..

but just as an example I dont think saying "thanks for dinner that was delicious " is too much to ask..I thank my husband for dinner he cooks more than me these days.He seems quite eager to hear it including "how was it"?Or an occassional compliment .I've told my husband you know our yard always looks the best in our neighborhood you do a great job(IOW I'm proud of what he did/does)..that's not "romance".That letting him know I NOTICE what he does and does good and I appreciate it.Or saying "you always make me laugh" or your hilarious when you make each other laugh ..a "reason I enjoy your company"..or positive trait...when you go above and beyond for one of the kids "the kids are lucky to have you"..(I admire you as a parent)

Its not "constant reasurance" to keep letting each other know that you appreciate and APPROVE of them when an opportunity arises to do so..Especially if you have no problem letting it roll off your tongue what you DON'T approve of or appreciate them.If you never hear uplifting (or rarely) and all you hear is what you did wrong its very defeating.Like ONLY noticing when your kids grades are bad and never telling them good job when they get good ones.

Oh and by the way..even though my husband mostly "sucks" at uplifting me and saying words of "approval " in fact he DID teach my children to thank me for dinner(he litterally said "tell mommy thank you for dinner".And when we go OUT to dinner even though I have contributed much in the family my husband is the main breadwinner and going out is more of a "luxury "thing when we get in the car to go home I say "thank you for taking us to dinner".(in FRONT of the children and they quickly follow "thank you ")

Again I'm not talking "constant" I'm talking about interjecting positives BUT especially if you have a habit of interjecting negatives.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh and you don't have to have a "talk' with a 20 yo about thanking the wife for dinner..THEY LEARN IT from their dad and mom by example.Just like they learn to show affection to their spouse if mom and dad are affectionate towards each other in front of them.That was my point..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> And how many people who've been married 10 to 20 years still thank each other or compliment each other? Not many, they just get comfortable with each other and don't need the constant reassurance to know they are loved and wanted.


Not many is not a good thing.Especially when you take into account the divorce rate.20 years is a peak time by the way ..How many people that have been married 10 or 20 years can say they are content /satisfied ?NOT MANY even if they "stay married".Also there are many marriages that have gone on for 30 40 50 years and don't end til death that are NOT good.Where one or both are depressed and have just "settled".

And one of the top reasons for an affair?(what is good about it) its (men and women) they made me "feel good " about myself when I was around them and its not just sexually desired.

Part of feeling "loved" is being admired and why.Being approved of and why.Being respected and why.

Most of the people I hear that say they don't need that already get it.(that's why they don't think they need it ) or they have learned to "survive " without it for long enough they adjusted.But that's not ideal.Not IMHO...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I met my husband when I was 15...We know young love can last... will it ...I don't know. My husband hopes we haven't set unrealistic expectations up for our kids... but we see US in them...very responsible -but have alot more going for them than we ever did...


LOL!! I was 14 and my husband 16 when we met...but we had DRAMA DRAMA DRAMA we did some responsible things and some plain down right stupid irresponsible things.BUT one of the sweetest things my husband ever said to me and I'll never forget it because he is "hard pressed" to say "why" or "what" he loves about me I think we had been married 15 or so years that he "loved me because I knew him in his youth".

Anyway I view ALL my sons (even my 16 ) yo's GF's as "unlikely" but potential future wives so I try to treat them like "my family"..I "emotionally " invest in them which can be (or is) heartbreaking when it doesn't work out.But I wouldn't do it any other way.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Our son is very Romantic by his nature... she eats that up !! ..


So are all 3 of mine but especially my two youngest..oddly just today the doorbell rang and the mail man had a package (that had to be signed for ) and it was addressed to my 16 yo and said "plush doll" (from Japan) I knew immediately it was a gift for his part Japanese GF and its not even her b-day.He woke up (teenagerLOL) saw it and excitedly opened it and told me its a character from an anime movie they both love..

His last GF(and his first actually lasted 8 months) I had to drive him to the store after picking him up for school so he could buy her favorite ice cream and bring it to her house because she was home sick form school that day ..(his idea too..it was a surprise for her to "cheer her up")And that's just one example with her.

And my husband ? IS very "romantic"..in those ways.I have had no shortage of romance.Its his parallel "critical spirit" and his invalidating WORDS and his inability to say "nice things" that I hope they didn't inherit.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

The point is?My sons "learned" "romance" by example.they have seen their daddy walk in with flowers for me for no reason many many times and still to this day ).They have seen him walk through the door make a bee line for me and kiss me..many many many times and still to this day IF I'm speaking to him LOL!!!He routinely brings me "small gifts" that I never asked for and he just leaves them for me like my favorite dark chocolate bar will be on my nightstand.(of course now I'm thinking maybe he believes chocolate is and aphrodesiac??????  LOL) anyway ...


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I agree about the stop chasing him part.But if she emotionally detaches from him how at the same time could they enjoy EACH others company?And also do you realize she would probably have to go to some sort of hypnotherapy to be emotionally "withdrawn and inside herself but suddenly "turn back on " to have enthusiastic emotionally mentally present sex and then back to emotionally withdrawn when that part was over?
> 
> Also how do you know if she did this.Continued doing everything he likes to do and she continued to do acts of service for him but stopped talking (as much so be his "quiet companion) smiling "less" then had had enthusiastic sex when he wanted he wouldn't just like her that way?He might even think she "got over' her problem.Where she is stuck emotionally detached switching back on just for sex?(even if that's possible for the average person)
> 
> ...


My point is not that she has to stop loving him. She needs to convey her unhappiness in a way other than emotionally venting because that is obviously not working to date. By emotionally withdrawing somewhat I'm betting he will notice the change in her attitude. Think about it like she is doing a 180. If what you are doing is not working why would you think that doing more of it will work? Do the exact opposite and see if that changes things. Also, by not pushing hopefully her husband can stop being on the defensive all the time and will actually consider what she is asking for. You seem to believe that she cannot emotionally withdraw purposefully and IF her husband then responds she can never come back out of her shell. I'm willing to give her much more credit than that. What you describe is more likely to happen when feelings fester and resentment creeps in. I do not believe that has occurred yet so I don't see why she cannot become quiet to convey her unhappiness and then return to her normal bubbly self when things improve.

How do I know if she hasn't already done this? I don't. How do you know if she has? Isn't it better that she try this if all else has not worked or should she just call it quits and divorce. They are very young. Neither of them quite know what works regarding the other. Neither yet knows the best way to communicate with the other. We each have different ways of conveying our message and we each have different receptiveness when it comes to assimilating those messages. Maybe overt communication will not work with the husband in this case. Maybe he is more subtle and the message needs to be conveyed in a more subtle manner. This is an opportunity for the OP to find out how to say what she is feeling and in a way that her husband will receive and digest it best.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

So much good insights on this thread...I found this article...copied & pasted a few of it's paragraphs below....








The Emotionally Distant Husband 











> As the relationship progresses, or rather, fails to progress, feelings of disillusionment and futility become entrenched, and faulty patterns of communication yield increasing frustration. Failure to progress is not for lack of trying.
> 
> As I consult in case after case, I see that many emotionally eager women have good reason to feel disappointed. Most women need strong, growing relationships that are openly expressed, and their husbands fail to supply that need. These wives are living with men who have unconsciously committed themselves to an evasive way of life.
> 
> The wives aren’t the only ones hurt by this evasiveness. These men, unwilling to seriously explore the depths of their own emotional needs, perch securely atop their own little time bombs. As frustration and confusion mount, something will eventually blow.





> 1. Communication is reduced to power plays. If nothing else, evasive behavior creates a feeling of power. This concept of control and power-wielding can take some strange twists, and the people involved usually do not see it for what it is.
> 
> If the emotionally eager wife responds with her own overbearing style instead of understanding his fear of being controlled, she does the very thing that makes matters worse. She speaks coercively.
> 
> ...





> 1. Relationship is secondary to performance. Human beings err, make occasional wrong choices, and are occasionally selfish. In healthy marriages, the partners recognize this fact and allow plenty of room for open conflict resolution. Emotionally eager wives would welcome the chance to discuss problems. But because the evasive husband prefers to minimize his own emotional vulnerability, he customarily runs from the threat of having to struggle with emotions. Logic tells us that if a man is running away from something, he is also running toward something else. What is it that men run toward to avoid personal interactions? Performance.
> 
> Now, as a very general rule, men are performance-oriented anyway. Whereas women enjoy the process of doing something, men want to reach the goal as quickly and efficiently as possible and go on to something else. (Again, I remind you, there are plenty of exceptions to this.)
> 
> Commonly, evasive men will not mind giving time to an activity such as yard work, fishing, a project at the church. It’s familiar turf. They already know how to do those things. They’ll see a nice, neat, trimmed-up yard, the new church fence, perhaps a fish or two.something. But relationships require being not doing, an unsettling concept for many men.





> 3. Personal insights are unequal. Healthy people not only admit the need for improvement, they welcome the challenge. Growing people are willing to absorb insights and information. They actively seek out truth.
> 
> Evasive people are not inclined toward insight and awareness. Apart from the fact that it’s too much trouble for what you get out of it, the evasive husband really isn’t interested in being challenged on the personal, philosophical level. That makes him too vulnerable. He wants the comfortable routine, the level keel, putting little or no thought into the whys of life.
> 
> ...





> 4. Both sides feel victimized. Evasive husbands subconsciously live with a philosophy of “You leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone, and we’ll get along just fine.” The fewer challenges they encounter, the less conflict they experience, and the better they feel. The problem is that their spouses by nature yearn for a far more intimate pattern of relating.
> 
> The wife launches her various attempts to get the intimacy and depth she craves, protesting or cajoling or simply acting unhappy. The husband, turned off by his wife’s prodding, sulks and wonders, “Why do I have to live with this kind of stuff? She’s crabby for no good reason.”
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

dallasapple said:


> The point is?My sons "learned" "romance" by example.they have seen their daddy walk in with flowers for me for no reason many many times and still to this day ).They have seen him walk through the door make a bee line for me and kiss me..many many many times and still to this day IF I'm speaking to him LOL!!!He routinely brings me "small gifts" that I never asked for and he just leaves them for me like my favorite dark chocolate bar will be on my nightstand.(of course now I'm thinking maybe he believes chocolate is and aphrodesiac??????  LOL) anyway ...


:smthumbup:... And your sons DO appear to be following in his footsteps in the







*Romantic*







from what you have shared here.... very sweet... it does make a difference what our sons see growing up, how a man treats his wife... day in & day out.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I have a hard time wrapping my brain around this last statement...Romantic in gifts you mean ....but not in praise or him showing what you mean to him/ those words of Affirmation......so he looses it on the verbal...



Exactly its hard to wrap your mind around without going insane first.. and shows the importance and difference in "romantic gestures" and what we speak in words..


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Yesterday was a much better day. I sent my husband an email, outlining my expectations in a very clear way. I also asked him if he did, indeed, feel that I was an unsafe person to be open and honest with; I asked if he felt that I was being domineering and clingy and everything else that people in the thread said he might be feeling. I also asked if he thought I/we were focusing too much on needs. He read it before lunch and had all day to think about it. 

I also told him that we could do whatever he wanted to do that night, if indeed he wanted to focus on recreational companionship. He wanted to go to the gym and, frankly, I needed to let off some steam as well. We've been working on our cardio by working out on the elliptical. The last time we were there I did two miles in under thirty minutes. I big deal for me, so I was excited to workout with him. We always find ellipticals next to each other so we can talk throughout the workout. 

He wanted to lift some weights for about twenty minutes first, so I started the workout on my own. By the time my forty-five minutes was through I'd done over a 5k. Needless to say, I felt very proud of myself. Cardio isn't something I've ever been really good at, so the fact that I did over three miles(over three and a half, actually) felt incredible. 

We went out to dinner afterward and discussed the email. He said that, no, he didn't feel we were focusing too much on needs. He did, however, feel that neither of us approached the topic the way we should. He said that he definitely hasn't been putting in enough effort, and that he can see why I was feeling anxious, given that he's "said" a lot of things about meeting my needs in the past and recently, but doesn't always follow through. He also said that he didn't think I was focusing too much on needs, or that I wasn't "safe", but he did feel like I was being more of a disciplinarian than a wife. He said I brought the subject up a lot, and it wasn't always mentioned in a respectful way, that it was difficult for him to accept what I had to say. I told him that I mentioned it so much because I was trying to help him keep his promises. But, I said that I could see how awful that would make someone feel. I said that I can't control him, nor do I want to. And I said that the choice to meet my needs has to be his own.

He said that it's not wrong for me to tell him when he's slipping up, so, I asked if it would be acceptable for us to discuss things once a week to see how the other is doing, that way it's not me telling him how horrible he's doing, but rather it's us discussing the good things, and then commenting on what we think could be better. And not in a, "You didn't do this, this, or this" way, but in a, "I'm starting to see the old pattern coming back, what can we do to kick that bad habit?" He said that he would love that. He actually teared up at one point. He said that how I bring things up really affects him, and I said that was totally fair and understandable. He teared up at that point and smiled. I think it helped him. 

I also explained exactly what I define admiration to be, the spoken and unspoken things. I told him the three things that are most important for me to hear, and how often I think they should be said. He then said that he believed them to be completely realistic. He said that we both ask for a lot from each other, but he still believes our needs to be realistically met. I also told him that I have seen a substantial improvement in the affection department, and I apologized for not having met them before. He apologized for saying that he thought I was codependent, realizing now that I'm not, and he also apologized for not trying as hard as he should have.

So, we ate dinner and then went home and actually played together for the first time in years. He told me that he thinks I'm a wonderful person, he's proud to have me as his wife, and that he really does believe our marriage is worth fighting for. We had some great intimacy, and then watched a few episodes of our favorite show. We went to bed and this morning he made me breakfast and would have brought it to me in bed if I hadn't woken up. (Dumb dog.) 

I feel very content today. I'm glad we waited to have the talk until after we worked out. Endorphins are fantastic.  We're going to the gym again today, and I guess we'll see where things go from here. We've had moments like this in the past, where things have been good for a while and then gotten worse, but that doesn't mean it'll happen the same way again. And if it does, I'm going to do my best to respond much better than I did this time. And, hopefully, my attempts to not badger him and control him will make as much difference as his efforts.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Bravo C2W! You handled that perfectly and it's obvious your husband loves you beyond measure. Talking once a week will take the pressure off him and puts the responsibility squarely where it belongs...with each of you. Excellent talk and you did it in a casual way so as not to put him on the defensive. Just perfect.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

bfree said:


> Bravo C2W! You handled that perfectly and it's obvious your husband loves you beyond measure. Talking once a week will take the pressure off him and puts the responsibility squarely where it belongs...with each of you. Excellent talk and you did it in a casual way so as not to put him on the defensive. Just perfect.


Thanks. Honestly, when he said he wanted to wait to talk about the email until after the workout, I was a bit upset. It's things like that that make me feel like our relationship is secondary to other things in his life. But, I took the advice of people here and tried not to assume that it meant anything other than that we wanted to workout first. Afterward, I saw precisely why he wanted to wait; we were both happier cause of the endorphins, and we were both more clearheaded after burning some calories. And I saw how much better I felt in myself, outside of him entirely, by accomplishing something. So, for those who said not to make bad judgments and assumptions, you were very right. Thank you for that. It helped me yesterday.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Thanks. Honestly, when he said he wanted to wait to talk about the email until after the workout, I was a bit upset. It's things like that that make me feel like our relationship is secondary to other things in his life. But, I took the advice of people here and tried not to assume that it meant anything other than that we wanted to workout first. Afterward, I saw precisely why he wanted to wait; we were both happier cause of the endorphins, and we were both more clearheaded after burning some calories. And I saw how much better I felt in myself, outside of him entirely, by accomplishing something. So, for those who said not to make bad judgments and assumptions, you were very right. Thank you for that. It helped me yesterday.


Everything takes time dear.

What's important is that you both _KNOW_ that you love each other, and have each other's back.
That's what's important.
Know that he loves and cares for you even though he may be a bit careless at times or clumsy at remembering or expressing his thoughts regarding certain things.
When he does go out of his way do the things you like,
Reward him handsomely!

Also remember pregnancy does "stuff" with your hormones!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

He was rewarded pretty handsomely last night.  lol.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> He was rewarded pretty handsomely last night.  lol.


Wait a minute having sex is his "reward? 

And also you are pregnant?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

It was a joke, dallas, in comment to what CaribbeanMan said. 

And no, I'm not pregnant. I recently came off of birth control, and we were considering having a baby, but our apartment complex has some health hazards we hadn't seen before so we decided to wait. We're hoping that within a year we'll have conceived, but we're not actively trying to get pregnant at this point.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Our house & family would surprise the living crap out of many here.... Our 15 yr old son has been with the same girl for over 15 months now... they are not like the normal drama driven FB debacled relationships you see everywhere in High school...
> 
> You know what she handed him for their 1 year anniversary...a few months ago.... 8 pages written out -
> 
> ...


My husband wrote a list like that for me once, but it was 100 reasons why he loves me. I absolutely loved it. He put down things that I never would have thought he even noticed.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Sometimes men are loud, gruff and yes we can be obnoxious. But that doesn't always mean we are always receptive to overt communication. Sometimes subtlety works better on us. We do have a softer side although its not always noticeable.

My wife is very boisterous. She plays loud music and dances and sings around the house. Its how I know she's happy. But because of this I don't always really "hear' her when she says something. The way she can express and impress her message best to me is often when she comes, sits down on the couch next to me and whispers in my ear. I also find it very sexy no matter what she happens to be saying.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

bfree said:


> Sometimes men are loud, gruff and yes we can be obnoxious. But that doesn't always mean we are always receptive to overt communication. Sometimes subtlety works better on us. We do have a softer side although its not always noticeable.
> 
> My wife is very boisterous. She plays loud music and dances and sings around the house. Its how I know she's happy. But because of this I don't always really "hear' her when she says something. The way she can express and impress her message best to me is often when she comes, sits down on the couch next to me and whispers in my ear. I also find it very sexy no matter what she happens to be saying.


My husband is very much the same way, I guess. It's difficult because I'm an emotionally expressive person. It's not really natural for me to "hide" or "play down" what I'm feeling. But I can see how, to someone who isn't emotionally expressive, seeing my anger and hurt feelings could make them feel defensive. I need to learn how to be honest about how I'm feeling without expressing it in my tone and body language.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Sometimes men are loud, gruff and yes we can be obnoxious. But that doesn't always mean we are always receptive to overt communication. Sometimes subtlety works better on us. We do have a softer side although its not always noticeable.


OMG...Yes sometimes I suppose but many men "tout" they want direct and cant be expected to "read minds" that's one of the in fact biggest excuses I've seen mostly men use they had "no idea" because they need "direct" and women expect them to "take hints" or "read minds"..

So men are more "fickle" than they let on ..sometimes be direct and sometimes be "subltle"..but be subtle or direct depending on the man and depending on the circumstance..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

C2W, the more I read, the more it sounds to me like your best choice would be to learn more about forms of communication. How different people communicate, and how to HEAR people who communicate differently. There are tons of books on this; why not check some out?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> C2W, the more I read, the more it sounds to me like your best choice would be to learn more about forms of communication. How different people communicate, and how to HEAR people who communicate differently. There are tons of books on this; why not check some out?


Is there a specific book you'd recommend? I can't say I've done a lot of looking for books like this...It'd be good for my husband to read one too, I think. That way we're on the same page.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> OMG...Yes sometimes I suppose but many men "tout" they want direct and cant be expected to "read minds" that's one of the in fact biggest excuses I've seen mostly men use they had "no idea" because they need "direct" and women expect them to "take hints" or "read minds"..
> 
> So men are more "fickle" than they let on ..sometimes be direct and sometimes be "subltle"..but be subtle or direct depending on the man and depending on the circumstance..


Each man is different just like each person is different. You need to learn how to best communicate with your man. And like I said before if one way doesn't work try the exact opposite. Keep trying different ways until you find a way that works on your man. Once you know how he hears then you know how to talk. I also think when men say they can't read minds a lot of the time its because they have tuned out their wife's message. This isn't done on purpose but it often happens.

For instance, my wife will often complain to me about a coworker or a neighbor or a situation she was in. She doesn't necessarily want me to "fix" her problem. She just wants me to sit down and listen to her complain. And I do. Now if there was something important that needed to be conveyed to me, a problem that I needed to act on she would talk to me differently so that I know this conversation is different. And again, if there was a serious problem between us that was absolutely critical she would talk to me in yet another way so that I would have that "oh oh" moment. If she were to talk to me the same for all three of these situations how would I know that they were different? How would I know that her expectations for me were different?

And by the way, I do the same when I talk to her. I cannot expect her to know the importance I place on each conversation if I don't communicate my expectations to her along with my words. So I think that when men and women say they need direct communications and they can't read minds or take hints that is what they are really saying. Let me know the importance of this "sit down" as opposed to other times we talk so I can react appropriately.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Is there a specific book you'd recommend? I can't say I've done a lot of looking for books like this...It'd be good for my husband to read one too, I think. That way we're on the same page.


I'm trying to remember a book that my wife read and asked me to read that talked about various communication styles. I'll ask her if she remembers the title when she comes home.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

bfree said:


> I'm trying to remember a book that my wife read and asked me to read that talked about various communication styles. I'll ask her if she remembers the title when she comes home.


Thank you.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Created2Write said:


> My husband wrote a list like that for me once, but it was 100 reasons why he loves me. I absolutely loved it. He put down things that I never would have thought he even noticed.


See, he has it in him... maybe you should dig that out...find a frame & hang it on your bedroom wall - as a reminder of just how he feels & always has....for these times when you start to feel these feelings rising within. It's like a declaration of his







and *admiration* for you.

So happy to hear how things are going for you both !! :smthumbup:


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I've kept every single love letter he's ever written me. I used to keep them in my wallet, but after a while it wouldn't close...So I keep them in my desk now. Maybe I should do what you said and buy some frames and hang up my favorites...I like that idea. Unfortunately the dog found the list of 100 things he loves about me and ruined it.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Each man is different just like each person is different. You need to learn how to best communicate with your man.


EXACTLY and so does he..

There is no "how to communicate with "A"women book and how to communicate with: A" man book ever written..Its understanding YOUR mate then be willing able or not to deal/live with them for 50 + years..


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Usually, though, a lot can be learned about communication in general from such books. Maybe the info won't apply to my husband, maybe it will. At least I'll have tried. 

Even in HNHN, my husband's emotional needs don't perfectly align with what the author says are the usual top needs of a man. Admiration isn't even on my husband's top five emotional needs, yet it's my number one. So the information applies to us, just in a different way.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> My husband wrote a list like that for me once, but it was 100 reasons why he loves me. I absolutely loved it. He put down things that I never would have thought he even noticed.


I wrote my wife a "why I love, honor, admire, respect, etc" her list on our last anniversary. She tucked it away with her other sentimental items and there it is for her to see anytime she wants or needs to. 

If I wrote these daily, month, or even every year then the signifigance would be lost and it wouldn't have been as special. 

Same type of thing some years back when she was on vacation with her family during her birthday. I acted like a forgot about it when she called (she didn't mention it) but then had her called to front desk for flowers. She said the lady probably thought she was an emotional wreck because she burst into tears when she realized I hadn't forgot.

Point is Created, I hope you give your husband enough freedom to do something more special than daily affirmations. I certainly would not have felt like the above things were needed if I already had an admiration list to attend to. I would think I'm already do what I'm supposed to.

A very smart man said "keep is simple. Just not too simple". I think that applies to relationships as well. Even though you guys had a great talk and all seems well, it still seems like a lot of maintenance on a daily basis. Like a lot more work and tiring.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I wrote my wife a "why I love, honor, admire, respect, etc" her list on our last anniversary. She tucked it away with her other sentimental items and there it is for her to see anytime she wants or needs to.
> 
> If I wrote these daily, month, or even every year then the signifigance would be lost and it wouldn't have been as special.
> 
> ...


_To you_. I specifically asked him if he felt/thought my requests were too high maintenance, too much work, etc. He said "No." I'm not trying to push away what you're saying, and I "get" the point you're trying to make. I just don't think it applies. 

Honestly, the times when he and I have done exactly what you're saying to do, we've both felt irritated, unloved, ignored and neglected. And maybe I'm weird, but I'd like to feel special more than once or twice a year. Anniversary and birthdays aren't enough for me, and they aren't for him either.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> _To you_. I specifically asked him if he felt/thought my requests were too high maintenance, too much work, etc. He said "No." I'm not trying to push away what you're saying, and I "get" the point you're trying to make. I just don't think it applies.
> 
> Honestly, the times when he and I have done exactly what you're saying to do, we've both felt irritated, unloved, ignored and neglected. And maybe I'm weird, but I'd like to feel special more than once or twice a year. Anniversary and birthdays aren't enough for me, and they aren't for him either.


If it's not difficult to maintain then why such frustration and sadness over the last few days. Obviously something is the reason he continues to not do this well enough and whatever that is does apply exactly to you. I'm not saying mean things because I want to be mean. I just have an opinion and sure it may or may not apply.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> If it's not difficult to maintain then why such frustration and sadness over the last few days. Obviously something is the reason he continues to not do this well enough and whatever that is does apply exactly to you. I'm not saying mean things because I want to be mean. I just have an opinion and sure it may or may not apply.


That's a good question. It is _the_ question I have asked him so many times, I've lost count: if I'm not asking too much of you, why doesn't your behavior change? His answer has been the same every single time: "I don't know. I guess I'm just too lazy." So I don't have an answer for you. 

And the frustration and sadness has been because this has happened so many times before. After we read The Five Love Languages book, I thought that maybe the reason he didn't show me admiration or affection was because he didn't really understand how important they were. Nope. The Five Love Languages didn't help a jot. At one point, it effected our sex life in a substantial way, and I thought that scared him straight. Nope. We've gone through so many cycles where he's admitted not doing enough, promised to do more, and then not done anything differently. And I've approached the conversations many different ways; I tried being angry, didn't help. I tried being respectful and calm, but firm, and that didn't help. I've tried not mentioning it and withdrawing emotionally, and that didn't help. 

This last time we decided to read HNHN. It helped the affection improve, but the admiration wasn't touched. I'm glad that the affection has improved. It gives me hope because, before, nothing would change. _I_ was always the one to break the cycle or even bring up that I was unhappy. He just wouldn't bring it up. 

And again, each time, he's not had a reason for doing so. Or, at least, no reason outside of forgetfulness and laziness. 

But, hopefully, this change will continue to create changes in us both. I'm trying not to let the past define the future. I'm trying not to be negative and pessimistic.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> EXACTLY and so does he..
> 
> There is no "how to communicate with "A"women book and how to communicate with: A" man book ever written..Its understanding YOUR mate then be willing able or not to deal/live with them for 50 + years..


As I said in my post both my wife and I have had to learn how to communicate according to the specific situation. Its not up to either spouse but necessary for both spouses.

And there actually is a book written for both husbands and wives to help in communication. Although that isn't the book my wife and I read it does seem to address the issue we are talking about.

How to Talk to Your Husband/How to Talk to Your Wife: Patti McDermott: 9780809236824: Amazon.com: Books


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Usually, though, a lot can be learned about communication in general from such books. Maybe the info won't apply to my husband, maybe it will. At least I'll have tried.
> 
> Even in HNHN, my husband's emotional needs don't perfectly align with what the author says are the usual top needs of a man. Admiration isn't even on my husband's top five emotional needs, yet it's my number one. So the information applies to us, just in a different way.


My wife and I read His Needs, Her Needs and my needs weren't perfectly aligned with the usual top needs of men. In fact, we each wrote down what we thought the other's top 5 needs were before we read the book and took the quiz. We were both wrong, lol. She thought for sure that sexual fulfillment was going to be my #1 need but when I made out my list it was actually #3.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

C2W,

I asked my wife which book had suggestions for different forms of communication in relationships. She can't recall the title right now but she said she'll try to figure out which one it was. We've read a lot of relationship books over the years.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> That's a good question. It is _the_ question I have asked him so many times, I've lost count: if I'm not asking too much of you, why doesn't your behavior change? His answer has been the same every single time: "I don't know. I guess I'm just too lazy." So I don't have an answer for you.
> 
> And the frustration and sadness has been because this has happened so many times before. After we read The Five Love Languages book, I thought that maybe the reason he didn't show me admiration or affection was because he didn't really understand how important they were. Nope. The Five Love Languages didn't help a jot. At one point, it effected our sex life in a substantial way, and I thought that scared him straight. Nope. We've gone through so many cycles where he's admitted not doing enough, promised to do more, and then not done anything differently. And I've approached the conversations many different ways; I tried being angry, didn't help. I tried being respectful and calm, but firm, and that didn't help. I've tried not mentioning it and withdrawing emotionally, and that didn't help.
> 
> ...


Yea I don't think he knows why and he probably feels guilty about it too. This is a problem because it probably makes him feel like he can't make you happy which is kind of true.

I can understand why you're so frustrated. I mean pulling out HN/HN is like a trump card. If that doesn't do it then I can't imagine what would because it's the primary concept and it's a spectacular book.

Maybe one thing to focus on. Is that him knowing what you want daily or weekly is very defined and clear and is not ambiguous (but it sounds like you've done pretty good at this already). Another thing is that *he needs to know that he doesn't need to understand why you need admiration*. He just needs a clear definition of what that is and he needs to put it in his daily routine just like waking up and going to work.

Not ambiguous at all is important. If a kiss and "I love you" every morning is needed then specify it.

You guys truly may not be compatible based on this one need and his inability to provide it. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or that you're a demanding girl. I would have a difficult time providing scheduled affirmation myself and I love, admire, and respect my wife immensely. I think I would be able to meet those needs now but I'm not sure if I could have when I was 25.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

C2W, have you read this book? I have not but I saw another post by someone thanking a TAMER for recommending it.

SurrenderedWife.com


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> That's a good question. It is _the_ question I have asked him so many times, I've lost count: if I'm not asking too much of you, why doesn't your behavior change? His answer has been the same every single time: "I don't know. I guess I'm just too lazy." So I don't have an answer for you.


I think this is because your arguments are so logical that he's unable to refute them. But being logical does not make something correct. 

The points you have made are examples of flawed logic. Even though I have studied at the master's level on communications, I cannot explain logical fallacies well enough to hone in on your issues precisely. Here's a basic introduction that can help you understand why your logic and his behavior won't be likely to come together. You've presented a number of logical fallacies that I can't really dissect one after another, but I'll try to give a couple of examples: 

"I go out of his way to meet his needs, so he should do the same for me" is what's called a non-sequitor. It's much like the idea of "If you love me, you'd buy me this car" - the example in the link above. Whether he meets yours or not is not related to what you do for him (or whether he loves you, which gets into more logic fallacies.)

"Is sending a text so difficult?" This is a logical fallacy because you're not asking him to send a text. This is most closely related to the false dilemma example in the link above. You're asking him to create a lifestyle change but you are presenting it as if you're only asking for a single, simple task. What you really want is a change in his thought processes/personality. I would bet if you asked him if you would be reasonable to expect him to change the way his brain works in order for you to be happy, his answer would NOT be, "Yes, honey, and the only reason I haven't done that is because I've been lazy." 

I've only linked a very basic guide. Fallacies are very complex and can be extremely hard to spot, much less categorize. 

But if you can develop critical thinking skills that allow you to break your own logic down into the A=B=C you would start to recognize where you're leading yourself astray.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I think this is because your arguments are so logical that he's unable to refute them. But being logical does not make something correct.
> 
> The points you have made are examples of flawed logic. Even though I have studied at the master's level on communications, I cannot explain logical fallacies well enough to hone in on your issues precisely. Here's a basic introduction that can help you understand why your logic and his behavior won't be likely to come together.


So
- crime rate rises in hot weather.
- people eat more ice cream in hot weather.
- Conclusion: eating ice cream makes people commit crimes?

Surely you're not arguing this logic


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Created2Write said:


> Is there a specific book you'd recommend? I can't say I've done a lot of looking for books like this...It'd be good for my husband to read one too, I think. That way we're on the same page.


I was seeking a few out for you ?? >>

Why Can't You Read My Mind? Overcoming the 9 Toxic Thought Patterns that Get in the Way of a Loving Relationship:

Communication Miracles for Couples: Easy and Effective Tools to Create More Love and Less Conflict: 

 Talk to Me Like I'm Someone You Love: Relationship Repair in a Flash 

Fight Less, Love More: 5-Minute Conversations to Change Your Relationship without Blowing Up or Giving In:

 The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work:  This book has 284







reviews

How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> _Originally Posted by *Created2Write*_
> My husband wrote a list like that for me once, but it was 100 reasons why he loves me. I absolutely loved it. He put down things that I never would have thought he even noticed.





> _Originally Posted by *Thundarr *_: I wrote my wife a "why I love, honor, admire, respect, etc" her list on our last anniversary. She tucked it away with her other sentimental items and there it is for her to see anytime she wants or needs to.


 Can I say I am a little envious.... Created2write (that sucks the dog got it!  ) & Thundarr's wife....as besides Love notes in our teens...my husband has never handed me a Romantic # "Love list" ...in all of our 31 yrs together. 

I simply know I will hit dirt before I would see something like that....but it's still OK... I recognize all the other *ways* he Loves, he Gives, how he makes me feel... 

Like Thundarr said here


> That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or that you're a demanding girl.* I would have a difficult time providing scheduled affirmation myself **and I love, admire, and respect my wife immensely.*


 My husband would feel this way also ...most especially if I wanted him to pure it out in written form, something about putting a pen in his hand causes pressure. 

The fact he was willing to join TAM... I should have had a heart attack on the spot... he is not a writer at all.

His way is...showing me in his time, closeness & his touch -less verbal...that is his wiring. If he was matched with a woman as non verbal as he can be at times (not trying to make him sound bad)...let's just say... it would be pretty tame/ uneventful... so My high "verbal" expression ....one could say...upsurges things in him....then he unleashes on me.... If I questioned how he felt due to his not being as expressive outright... this could have killed us a long time ago..










Here is something you could do as well >>>

.... When you have these beautiful nights of emotional connection & he speaks things that touch you deeply / those words of admiration...

Write it all down..capture every sweet memory shared between the 2 of you...and his words to you...such admiration won't happen every day...like Thundarr said here >>> " *If I wrote these daily, month, or even every year then the significance would be lost and it wouldn't have been as special.* "... there is some truth to that... again, going back to how a man's brain is wired. 

But we can create your own little "Moments of a lifetime" list.....with his







written all over it. Makes me think of "the Notebook".. then in old age, such Lovers can reminisce all that they struggled and deeply shared together...one reading to the other... a love that wouldn't quit ~ even when it got really tough at times....


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Yes I think writing down a long list of everything you love or admire about a person everyday or week or month would lose its specialness.

But interjecting positives when the situation arises like one compliment at a time on a weekly basis would never get old its building blocks.I would probably feel suffocated in fact if my husband was writing a list of 50 things a day he loved and admired about me...but hey an occasional note ..a one liner taped in the kitchen cabinet..or like I said if the opportunity arises to "notice" something and admire it SAY it ..or the opportunity through words of encouragement to build me up if I have a goal like a little bit of cheerleading so to speak or statements to reasure or encourage if I'm down ..Its not for me just about"how do I love thee let me count the ways " being written down.That is great for special occassions but you don't need a "special " occassion or event to interject those affirming words.And its definately not good to interject negatives every chance you get expecially in the absence of positive reinforcement.

As a matter of fact if I never hear an affirmation or validating words.But instead 100's of the invalidating discouraging statements in words over a year ..like a constant "sprinkle" then If I get that anual or bi-annual "list" of 100 things for a special occasion I tend to think its out of obligation and I have difficulty believing he even means it.There are 365 days in a year..How hard is it if you live together to come up with 100 words expressing appreciation or admiration or encouragement over that length of time?Especially if you can manage to come up easily with 500 reasons they suck or are wrong about something in those 365 days.Reasons they don't admire or appreciate you and defeating words when you need encouragement?Whats wrong with you .


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

dallasapple said:


> There are 365 days in a year..How hard is it if you live together to come up with 100 words expressing appreciation or admiration or encouragement over that length of time?
> 
> Especially if you can manage to come up easily with 500 reasons they suck or are wrong about something in those 365 days.Reasons they don't admire or appreciate you and defeating words when you need encouragement? Whats wrong with you .


 I can't remember the saying, but for every negative word spoken that hurts /maims... I think it takes 3 positives to make up for it ... like when dealing with children so they say. I would think even us adults are similar...can't find the quote though.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ....as besides Love notes in our teens...my husband has never handed me a Romantic # "Love list" ...in all of our 31 yrs together.
> 
> I simply know I will hit dirt before I would see something like that....but it's still OK... I recognize all the other *ways* he Loves, he Gives, how he makes me feel...


Plant a very subtle bug in his ear and hope he waits long enough. It was first time I've written anything down that wasn't in the "write here" section of a card. She didn't expect it and would have said the same thing you did beforehand.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I can't remember the saying, but for every negative word spoken that hurts /maims... I think it takes 3 positives to make up for it ... like when dealing with children so they say. I would think even us adults are similar...can't find the quote though.


I know what you are talking about but I thought it was more like 1-100...Because apparrently a hurtful word will be repeated in our mind 100 times .

But that was kind of my point as far as why not say nice uplifting positive things all during the year like a sprinkling.Rather than rarely or nothing all the while you dole out negatives then once a year try and flood the person in one day with positives.Then go back to nothing or even negatives?

I would rather my husband sporadically for example notice my efforts as a mother as they come and say "I'm so proud of what kind of mother you have become" when I'm actually NEEDING the encouragement or praise during the year maybe 1/2 a dozen times then say nothing all year and give me a Hallmark card on mothers day that he has the kids sign then go out to dinner.Mothers day is not an "opportunity" rather its a tradition to be followed to be "politically correct" so to speak or else you look like an ass.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

C2W, I think you know what you want. To feel special, cherished, admired, respected, adored.

It's the method of how he does that where the problem comes in. I think many of the specifics that you're asking for from him will ring hollow because it's just going through the motions. It needs to come from the heart and not the head.

Ask him 
- what he respects or admires about you as a person.
- what makes him proud to be with you.
- why he thinks you're the bomb.
- DONT ask for things he wishes were different. That's a different list .

Let us know what he says. You deserve a truthful response and he should know that it's ok to be honest.

I looked back on the letter I wrote my wife which was actually her birthday and not anniversary like I thought so you can see how we forget the little things that others might find insensitive.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Thundarr said:


> Plant a very subtle bug in his ear and hope he waits long enough. It was first time I've written anything down that wasn't in the "write here" section of a card. She didn't expect it and would have said the same thing you did beforehand.


 Seriously, no kidding aside...I think I'd have to be dying ..... not going to happen... I am not exactly the most subtle woman around... I speak everything I desire....there is no lack for knowing....and no, he doesn't mind this about me -unless I start getting pissy ..... he's known I'd appreciate a letter with his feelings written down for AGES...

I did tell him the other night I was a little jealous..mentioning Created2Writes 100 liner -going on how -this is from a man who struggles in the emotional ... so I said ...."What gives with you, you're very emotional "......a little ....Boo hooing/ a little making fun (I wasn't really upset) ......he just gives me that look like a deer "caught in the headlights"... knowing he doesn't measure up to the male "writers"... who yes.... I wish he had a little more of that. I dig that. 

I realize this isn't helping anything. He does a handful of things a year with the written word... I make a hell of deal out of it when he does... much praise on my end...this will have to be my morsel of admiration - in this respect. I can easily live with this mind you.... 

But how funny it is...no 2 people could be further opposites in this thing.... I could happily pen a book....he struggles with a sentence...it is what it is.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

bfree said:


> C2W,
> 
> I asked my wife which book had suggestions for different forms of communication in relationships. She can't recall the title right now but she said she'll try to figure out which one it was. We've read a lot of relationship books over the years.


No worries.  I'll look around for popular communication books too.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Yea I don't think he knows why and he probably feels guilty about it too. This is a problem because it probably makes him feel like he can't make you happy which is kind of true.
> 
> I can understand why you're so frustrated. I mean pulling out HN/HN is like a trump card. If that doesn't do it then I can't imagine what would because it's the primary concept and it's a spectacular book.
> 
> Maybe one thing to focus on. Is that him knowing what you want daily or weekly is very defined and clear and is not ambiguous (but it sounds like you've done pretty good at this already). Another thing is that *he needs to know that he doesn't need to understand why you need admiration*. He just needs a clear definition of what that is and he needs to put it in his daily routine just like waking up and going to work.


Actually, this came up in our conversation. We both realized that we don't need to understand why certain things are important to the other, we just need to grasp that they are and focus on doing what we need to to meet those needs. 



> Not ambiguous at all is important. If a kiss and "I love you" every morning is needed then specify it.
> 
> You guys truly may not be compatible based on this one need and his inability to provide it. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or that you're a demanding girl. I would have a difficult time providing scheduled affirmation myself and I love, admire, and respect my wife immensely. I think I would be able to meet those needs now but I'm not sure if I could have when I was 25.


I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding his aspect of things, but I'm trying. It seems like such a simple thing to me. I can get not actively thinking, "I need to say xyz to my wife before the night is over". I can understand it not being a natural thing, and it being difficult to remember. What I'm having a hard time understanding is why, after he's done something to help him remember, like set an alarm, he just turned it off and said nothing. 

In our dating relationship I had some trust issues. They caused some highly unnecessary fights. I set two alarms in my phone, one in the morning and one at night. The first said "Remember to LOVE him"(reminding myself that he's not like my other jerk boyfriend's were), and the second said, "Remember to RESPECT him"(reminding myself not to let myself get carried away with my feelings.) After about three months our relationship had improved significantly. But with him it was like another alarm that went off, and the note attached to the alarm went in one ear and out the other. 

So far I have outlined the three most important verbal things I need to hear from him and how often I'd like to hear them. He has said that he understands and that they're not difficult requests at all, so...here's hoping. Maybe I gave him way too much, or maybe I was too ambiguous all these years. I dunno. Maybe he really doesn't know either. Either way, we're doing things differently. If this doesn't work, we'll have to try something else.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> C2W, have you read this book? I have not but I saw another post by someone thanking a TAMER for recommending it.
> 
> SurrenderedWife.com


I have not. I'll check it out though. Thanks!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was seeking a few out for you ?? >>
> 
> Why Can't You Read My Mind? Overcoming the 9 Toxic Thought Patterns that Get in the Way of a Loving Relationship:
> 
> ...


Dang woman! That's a lot of stuff! lol.  Thanks so much!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> C2W, I think you know what you want. To feel special, cherished, admired, respected, adored.
> 
> It's the method of how he does that where the problem comes in. I think many of the specifics that you're asking for from him will ring hollow because it's just going through the motions. It needs to come from the heart and not the head.
> 
> ...


He said: "I admire about how much you care about others around you, and those you call friends or family; cause you don't just like them, you _love_ them and would be devastated if anything happened to them. I respect that you always want to try and make our lives better, not just settle and stay content with whatever. I admire that you're trying to get healthy, taking obvious steps towards it." 



> - what makes him proud to be with you.


He said: "I'm proud to be with you because you're someone I can trust, you're someone that I love a lot,"...he then made a gesture to my chest...LOL...."this is gonna sound stupid but, you're not going to let yourself go like crazy. I'm never ashamed to bring you out in public, and I'm proud to be able to show you off, and that I'll always be able to. That you have the similar values I do, family, political, etc."



> - why he thinks you're the bomb.


He said: "You're just as easy on the ears as you are on the eyes. You're a talented lover. And you're, easily, my best friend." 



> - DONT ask for things he wishes were different. That's a different list .
> 
> Let us know what he says. You deserve a truthful response and he should know that it's ok to be honest.
> 
> I looked back on the letter I wrote my wife which was actually her birthday and not anniversary like I thought so you can see how we forget the little things that others might find insensitive.


Thanks for this. It made so much sense. I asked him those questions and what I wrote down were his immediate responses, practically verbatim.  Made me feel good about myself before going to work out. 

:flowerkitty:


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

So, just to add a bit more positivity...

Husband and I both like the show The Biggest Loser. It premiers tonight. Well, I love the show Downton Abbey, which also premiers tonight as the exact same time as BL. I told him that since he doesn't like Downton Abbey, we would watch BL. He said, "Well, I only _like_ Biggest Loser. You _love_ Downton Abbey, so we'll watch that instead." <3

And, of course, after such a wonderful sacrifice, our cable is acting up. Grrr. But still, that meant a lot.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

It's lovely to read these posts. You sound so much happier.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Dang woman! That's a lot of stuff! lol.  Thanks so much!


My wife and I read The Seven Principles. That was a very good book. I think it did talk about communication a lot as well.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks. Going through the same issue over and over again has been taxing, and I may not understand why we continue to go through the same thing, but so long as we're both willing to recognize our faults and mistakes, I think we'll kick the bad habits at some point.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

bfree said:


> My wife and I read The Seven Principles. That was a very good book. I think it did talk about communication a lot as well.


Thanks. I'll look into that book too.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> He said: "I admire about how much you care about others around you, and those you call friends or family; cause you don't just like them, you _love_ them and would be devastated if anything happened to them. I respect that you always want to try and make our lives better, not just settle and stay content with whatever. I admire that you're trying to get healthy, taking obvious steps towards it."





Created2Write said:


> He said: "I'm proud to be with you because you're someone I can trust, you're someone that I love a lot,"...he then made a gesture to my chest...LOL...."this is gonna sound stupid but, you're not going to let yourself go like crazy. I'm never ashamed to bring you out in public, and I'm proud to be able to show you off, and that I'll always be able to. That you have the similar values I do, family, political, etc."





Created2Write said:


> He said: "You're just as easy on the ears as you are on the eyes. You're a talented lover. And you're, easily, my best friend."


*What an encouraging post*. I hope you guys find your balance because I don't think he couldn't fake answers like that. I see your delima in that it seems like a simple thing that he's not doing but you have so much to lose.



Created2Write said:


> Thanks for this. It made so much sense. I asked him those questions and what I wrote down were his immediate responses, practically verbatim.  Made me feel good about myself before going to work out.
> 
> :flowerkitty:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> _To you_. I specifically asked him if he felt/thought my requests were too high maintenance, too much work, etc. He said "No."
> 
> Anniversary and birthdays aren't enough for me, and they aren't for him either.


 C2W, it seems to me that, given that nothing's changed, he is predisposed to tell you exactly what you want to hear. Whether he means it or not. So I wouldn't take what he says as gospel, not when it comes to the marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I can understand it not being a natural thing, and it being difficult to remember. What I'm having a hard time understanding is why, after he's done something to help him remember, like set an alarm, he just turned it off and said nothing.


If what I keep harping on is true (about men not really being on board with all the marriage/etc. crap), and what I just said about giving you lip service is true, then he is pretending to be doing all this stuff to make you happy when he thinks it's all just a bunch of 'female hocum' that he has to pretend to go along with to keep you happy. Like reading HNHN. How many 25 year old men really want to read that and incorporate it? When marriage was supposed to just be fun and exciting and...not a lot of work?

I'm not saying he IS this man. Just that he might be. It would explain why you're getting so frustrated when he doesn't do the stuff he says he will. Again, it'd be like my H telling me I had to go swimming every day. I may agree to it, I may even promise to do it, but you can bet my heart will never be in it, and I'll look for every excuse in the book to avoid it.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> C2W, it seems to me that, given that nothing's changed, he is predisposed to tell you exactly what you want to hear. Whether he means it or not. So I wouldn't take what he says as gospel, not when it comes to the marriage.


I've considered this. But how am I supposed to know when he's telling the truth or when he's just saying what he thinks I want to hear? There have been plenty of times in other situations when he hasn't told me what I wanted to hear. He's been honest before about feeling that I was trying to change his personality, which at the time(our first year of marriage) I was, so I know that dishonesty isn't common for him.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> *What an encouraging post*. I hope you guys find your balance because I don't think he couldn't fake answers like that. I see your delima in that it seems like a simple thing that he's not doing but you have so much to lose.


I think with patience and respectful communication, we'll get over this hill. I loved what he said yesterday. I could tell he meant it.  Thanks for the suggestion!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I've considered this. But how am I supposed to know when he's telling the truth or when he's just saying what he thinks I want to hear?


Well, that's easy. Is he following words with actions? If not, then HE DIDN'T MEAN IT when he said he agreed and would do what you wanted.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> He's been honest before about feeling that I was trying to change his personality, which at the time(our first year of marriage) I was, so I know that dishonesty isn't common for him.


 What that tells me is that, from the very beginning, you have let him know he's not stepping up. At first, he tried to be honest with you, tell you he wasn't happy with YOU for you trying to change him, but that he learned that it made no difference if he told you that because, well, here you are again, IGNORING what he said and trying, once again, to change him.

So why should he tell you the truth?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not saying he doesn't love you or want you. Just that what you're doing isn't working. Obviously. For either one of you. Have you researched any of the communication books suggested?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I think with patience and respectful communication, we'll get over this hill. I loved what he said yesterday. I could tell he meant it.  Thanks for the suggestion!


Very true.

BTW, I love your Shakespeare quotes.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera, respectfully, I just don't agree with you. I'm not asking my husband to change _who_ he is. And I've said that more than once already. 

And for the record, what I expect of my husband is similar to what he expects of me. Massages are probably one of the most important signs of non-sexual physical affection that I could show to him. I've never given anyone a massage before my husband and, frankly, it's not natural for me to do, or to even remember to do. And it's an area that, when I've not made the effort to remember, he's felt neglected and unloved. Should I just tell him that since it isn't natural for me or part of my personality that it's an unrealistic expectation? That by expecting me to do this one thing a couple times a week he's trying to change who I am? I can tell you right now that it would break his heart to hear that I would put myself before him. 

And that's exactly what you're telling me to accept from him. 

Frankly, I find that absurd. I'm an emotional person. It's natural for me to express my emotions strongly, but I don't expect my husband to sit there and take harsh words and tones just because it's part of my personality. I expect to be encouraged _to do better_, because my nature isn't always the right thing to follow. 

Thank you for your advice, but I simply can't agree with it.

And yes, I have researched some of the books suggested.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> What that tells me is that, from the very beginning, you have let him know he's not stepping up. At first, he tried to be honest with you, tell you he wasn't happy with YOU for you trying to change him, but that he learned that it made no difference if he told you that because, well, here you are again, IGNORING what he said and trying, once again, to change him.
> 
> So why should he tell you the truth?


You misunderstood the point. The point is that he's not the type of man who just agrees with whatever I say. He's honest when something isn't okay with him. There have been plenty of times over the course of our relationship when he's told me exactly what I didn't _want_ to hear. He's honest when I ask for too much, when I'm not giving enough, when I'm too critical, when I'm being moody, etc.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

The thing that you continually fail to consider, is that not everyone has the same personality, experiences, reactions, level of emotions, etc that you do.

You continually project your experiences and expectations onto your husband.

I'm glad you've had more positive experiences in the last short while. I hope that continues for you.

I hope you stick to your resolution to give your marriage the necessary room to flourish and prosper in it's own unpredictable way.

EDIT by the way I'm referencing this passage



Created2Write said:


> And for the record, what I expect of my husband is similar to what he expects of me. Massages are probably one of the most important signs of non-sexual physical affection that I could show to him. I've never given anyone a massage before my husband and, frankly, it's not natural for me to do, or to even remember to do. And it's an area that, when I've not made the effort to remember, he's felt neglected and unloved. Should I just tell him that since it isn't natural for me or part of my personality that it's an unrealistic expectation? That by expecting me to do this one thing a couple times a week he's trying to change who I am? I can tell you right now that it would break his heart to hear that I would put myself before him.
> 
> And that's exactly what you're telling me to accept from him.
> 
> Frankly, I find that absurd. I'm an emotional person. It's natural for me to express my emotions strongly, but I don't expect my husband to sit there and take harsh words and tones just because it's part of my personality. I expect to be encouraged _to do better_, because my nature isn't always the right thing to follow.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Saki said:


> The thing that you continually fail to consider, is that not everyone has the same personality, experiences, reactions, level of emotions, etc that you do.
> 
> You continually project your experiences and expectations onto your husband.
> 
> ...


So _I'm_ expected to just let him show me love in whatever way he deems efficient, without any regard for my feelings on the subject, just because some things may not be a natural part of his personality, and yet _I'm_ the one expected to ignore what _is_ a part of my personality and accept whatever it is he chooses to do or not to do? 

If I did the exact same thing to him, and ignored the things he's outlined as his needs, he would be broken hearted. And no, I'm not projecting anything onto him. I'm going off of experiences of when I've done exactly that in the past; shown him love in the ways that were natural for me. It was the worst time in our entire relationship! He has expectations of me, I have expectations of him. Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp?


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm not sure why it is so difficult to grasp.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Anyway, things _*have been better*_ over the last few days. I understand that things like this need to be taken slowly. We've agreed on a communication pattern which should enable us to communicate openly and honestly, but also respectfully and, hopefully, will drain away resentment. Talking once a week about what we feel the each has done well, and what we feel could be improved on, I think will make a massive difference over the long haul. He won't feel badgered and hounded because he already knows the conversation is coming, and I won't feel like I need to ignore my feelings because I know he'll really be listening. And it won't be either one of us hounding the other, but rather a discussion where we mutually discuss the improvements and the areas that still need improvement without judgment or criticism. 

I'm sure that we'll both slip up at some point as neither of us is perfect, but hopefully those slip ups won't be nearly as big of a deal now that an open pathway for communication has been set in place.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> And that's exactly what you're telling me to accept from him.


I'm not telling you to ACCEPT _anything_. I'm just trying to help you understand what _his_ side looks like. 

Why? Because you aren't getting what you want. So what you're doing isn't working. The main takeaway from HNHN, IMO, is that you have to SEE your marriage from the other person's eyes, to have it be fulfilling for you. Because, as you know very well by now, you can't make him do anything. All you can do is make what YOU want as appealing a process for him as possible. IF you want ABC from him, find out how him giving you ABC benefits HIM. At the root of it all, we avoid what we don't want and we move toward what makes us happy. 

Figure out how to make him giving you the affection/etc. you want something that makes HIM happy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> You misunderstood the point. The point is that he's not the type of man who just agrees with whatever I say. He's honest when something isn't okay with him. There have been plenty of times over the course of our relationship when he's told me exactly what I didn't _want_ to hear. He's honest when I ask for too much, when I'm not giving enough, when I'm too critical, when I'm being moody, etc.


 He WAS the type. Now, he's been with you for X years, and he's right back where he was in the first year, with you telling him that he's not doing a good enough job. He no longer feels as safe as he did when he married you (the same way we ALL go through this, through a series of incidents with our spouse). I'll bet you money that he has decided that agreeing with you on this subject, whether he believes it or not, is in his best interests.

But you have to make it safe for him to say so.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> Talking once a week about what we feel the each has done well, and what we feel could be improved on, I think will make a massive difference over the long haul. He won't feel badgered and hounded because he already knows the conversation is coming, and I won't feel like I need to ignore my feelings because I know he'll really be listening.


Excellent decision. It's what I nearly always recommend to people, if I haven't already recommended it to you - the weekly state of the marriage address. Make sure you both keep up the 'you have the right to speak and I won't interrupt you' thing so it stays safe.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

You're telling me what you _think_ are his feelings/opinions. And again, you're missing the point. He has _never_, ever, been the type of man to be dishonest about his true feelings. Even when we had our last argument he was honest about his feelings, to the point that he said things that hurt my feelings. They were not things I wanted to hear, yet he said them. You keep saying that I'm no longer a safe person for him, that he's just telling me what I want to hear, and I'm telling you that, at least where being honest is concerned, he has never been dishonest about his feelings. 

Yes, he has made promises in the past, kept them for a while, and then lost sight of them. This has happened for many, many reasons; sickness, moving, financial stress, working over eighty hours a week, been busy in general...the issue has been that, with both us, coming back from those things and refocusing our attention on the relationship and meeting each other's needs, hasn't always happened. There have been times when I jumped back into things and met his needs after a period of not doing it, but he's struggled with that part. 

I'll readily admit that, in the past, I think I did ask too much of him. And I told him this myself just yesterday. I was very ambiguous about what I wanted. I felt that spelling it out for him made it less romantic. I see that now, and I thank Thundarr for wording it the way he did. I think _that_ could very well have been one of the greatest reasons why this problem has continued. And The Five Love Languages didn't help either because it was too ambiguous for him as well. HNHN has been much more detailed and helpful in identifying exactly what it is the each of us needs from the other. Having such clarity will help him, I think. And if I had addressed this years ago, I don't think we would be here today. 

So I don't think that this is an issue of me being unsafe, or him being dishonest. I think he genuinely believed my needs weren't too much(cause in and of themselves they weren't, but I expected too much too quickly...there wasn't a chance for him to really learn how to meet my needs, and I own that...told him so myself just yesterday), and I think he was just as confused as I was as to why he wasn't meeting them. 

I should add that his needs were never clear, either. They changed all the time. First it was Quality Time and Physical Touch. Then it was Acts of Service and Quality Time. Then it was Acts of Service and Physical Touch. Then it was Quality Time and Physical Touch again. Then it was just making his lunches, having sex and giving him massages. Then it was Recreational Companionship, Sexual Fulfillment and Physical Attractiveness. Then the issue was that I didn't understand what actually qualified as Recreational Companionship. Now that we've done the RC worksheet and found the different activities we mutually enjoy, I have more to work with. Sex and Physical Attractiveness were self-explanatory. 

Now that our lives are far less hectic and stressful, and now that we both have clarity as to what the other wants, I think we're on a much better track to conquering this dynamic.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

We see here just with strangers the bad reaction when you dont hear what you want to hear how easily it is to believe he finds it easier in his home to just agree with you because the alternative ..well ..is a lot less pleasant..even over what to watch on t.v..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Also you have threatened to divorce him.Now suddenly he "agrees"....Okie dokie..Yep his true feelings" I'm sure..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

turnera said:


> Excellent decision. It's what I nearly always recommend to people, if I haven't already recommended it to you - the weekly state of the marriage address. Make sure you both keep up the 'you have the right to speak and I won't interrupt you' thing so it stays safe.


right the conversation has to be two ways.Even though I have a feeling he would rather skip it like you mentioned..and maybe go bowling or just have fun..but definately he needs to be versed in saying exactly what she wants to hear..or else..


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I haven't threatened him at all, dallas. But nice assumption. Keep 'em coming. They're amusing.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I haven't threatened him at all, dallas. But nice assumption. Keep 'em coming. They're amusing.


Dreaming about other men that could make me happy telling him about it and suggesting divorce isn't a threat?..Sorry that would threaten my husband maybe ya'll have different ideas of what a threat is.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Dallas, your perception of my marriage isn't reality.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I haven't threatened him at all, dallas. But nice assumption. Keep 'em coming. They're amusing.


Didn't you say you told him you were thinking about leaving? Even if you're not "making a threat" it does present a threat.

_"Last night I told him that I was considering separating, just to get some time away from each other to think about what we want without the other person around to influence our thoughts. I told him that I couldn't be in a relationship where he wasn't putting in effort to meet my needs. He said he understood. I don't know if it will change anything, but I've never said anything like this to him before. I know it made him really sad. It made me sad to say it, but I felt it needed to be said, right or wrong."_ (Page 6 of this thread)

You have no idea how you're railroading him! Like I did, you are simply going to defend your way and be "right" until he no longer believes you will ever come to understand him. It honestly sounds to me like he's already there, and even though he loves you dearly and does HIS best to show you, he feels resigned that you'll one day decide his best efforts aren't good enough and you'll leave him. 

Naturally, he won't admit that. He knows that you don't control your emotions and instead, you let your emotions control you. But you refuse to believe that your guy is like any human being - only willing to take so much risk. How can he say, "C2W, you're domineering, b*tchy, and demanding whenever you don't get your way?" if you go ballistic on him MENTIONING codependency? 

He's intelligent enough to know that if he doesn't filter his thoughts and treat your emotions like the fragile thing that they are, he will DAMAGE the relationship. He's trying to avoid that by doing the nice things he can think of. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I guarantee he HAS tried to give you that admiration on numerous occasions that you simply have not noticed it or given him credit. Ask him if he's ever felt like you didn't notice his efforts to. I think you still have enough trust and openness that he will acknowledge that much. 

He is a man. He won't acknowledge weakness if he can avoid it. Boys learn at a young age that admitting to an injured knee keeps them off the playing field altogether, so they learn to tough things out. But if you ask him if you have ignored his efforts, he'll say yes. He probably won't be able to name specifics, because he's already let them go from his mind in order to keep the peace. 

But again, he is in that double bind you keep putting him in. He knows that admitting he's doing the best he can will provoke criticism from you. At this point, he's also afraid it will make you leave the relationship because you have told him that you're thinking about doing that and you're fantasizing about other men meeting your needs better. 

He isn't a communication specialist that can hone in on the flaws of logic and see WHY your demands are unreasonable. He can say "I'm not doing enough" because that's what men are conditioned to do - try harder and then do it again - or else leave the playing field. He loves you and isn't ready to leave the playing field, but keep at him and you'll discover the hard way that what I am telling you is 100% accurate. 

I'm glad the last few days have been better for you. What will you say when you discover things sliding back to the same ol' same ol'? I'd place my bet that you'll use those days to "prove" that you're right that things can improve instead of seeing it as evidence that what others are saying is true - that you are wrong here. 

If you acknowledged being wrong, it would not make you a bad person, or unloved, or even "dumb." It would make you a loving wife who could begin to find healthy ways to get her needs for admiration met by people who can provide that to her. But instead, you'll continue to risk your relationship because you're putting your own needs FAR ahead of what is best for your marriage. All the massages and workouts in the world will NEVER compensate for your lack of acceptance of who he is.

Do you really want to know? 

Will you let him read this thread?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Of course I'd let him read this thread if he wanted to! He doesn't need my permission. I've read most of it to him already anyway. And there was so much more to the conversation where I mentioned considering separation. I didn't just say that I wanted to separate out of the blue. He had left the apartment for about an hour, and when he came back he asked what I had been thinking about, and that's when separating was mentioned. We were able to talk about everything, and he even said that he understood _why_ I felt what I did. He also knows that no separation of any kind would occur until we've exhausted every avenue of marital help that we can find.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Just so everyone here understands, I will always believe what my husband says above what strangers on a forum think. With that said, I've been emailing him some of the responses here and asking him if you're right. I told him not to worry about hurting my feelings, and just be honest. 

Of course, if he says you're _not_ right in your conclusions you'll just say that he's, again, telling me what I want to hear. God forbid a man actually has the balls to be honest with his wife.

Moreover, I have already said a hundred times that I'm not perfect either. To him and here.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The bottom line is that you have told him ad nauseum what you want, and you're still not getting it. You need to chart a different path to get there. Hope the one you're on works.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

YOU :Recently we talked. It was actually a great talk. I was terrified of bringing some things up, not because I thought he'd be mad, but because I was worried about how he would feel. Three nights in a row I'd had dreams about being with three different men that I know, a different man each dream. In these dreams I was happy and fulfilled, two things I don't get consistently in my marriage. 

My husband isn't abusive or mean, just...distant. He had a terrible example of what marriage should be in his parents. My parents were always openly affectionate with each other. His parents were openly argumentative, and his father had a tendency to be downright mean to my husband's mother. Not abusive, just mean. There were good times between them as well, but they weren't openly affectionate or romantic so my husband saw the negative much more than the positive. He did learn that a good husband works hard to provide for his family, and also spends quality time with them making memories. 

My family was vastly different. My mom and dad worked hard too, and we made memories through doing things together too, but they were also affectionate to each and other and to my brother and I. My dad was not emotionally distant. He was emotionally invested in our lives, and when I was 16 took me out on my first date to show me how a guy should treat me. 

So it's not surprising that I am the more romantic of the two of us, and my husband is the hard worker who just isn't outwardly emotionally invested in our relationship. 

In our talk we discussed that, and I outright asked him if he wanted to be with me, or if he thought he would be happier with someone else. I told him about the dreams I had had, and he admitted to having thought that he might be happier with someone else, and that he thought I might be happier with someone else as well. I told him that, even though I had dreams of myself in relationships with three men I knew, I did not feel attraction or a desire to be with any of them, which is true. I also told him that I really don't want to seek out a new relationship. The newness of another relationship is appealing, but is also stressful to think about. We considered the pros and cons of divorcing and trying to find new people to date, and we agreed that even though our initial reaction is excitement, when we think of starting over in a new relationship, we just think it would be stressful. END

SORRY C2W this is a THREAT when you talk abotu GETTING someone else to fullill your needs.Its not just a threat to leave its a threat to find someone else..


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Just so everyone here understands, I will always believe what my husband says above what strangers on a forum think. With that said, I've been emailing him some of the responses here and asking him if you're right. I told him not to worry about hurting my feelings, and just be honest.
> 
> Of course, if he says you're _not_ right in your conclusions you'll just say that he's, again, telling me what I want to hear. God forbid a man actually has the balls to be honest with his wife.
> 
> Moreover, I have already said a hundred times that I'm not perfect either. To him and here.


So in other words you are trying to prove you are right??


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Just so everyone here understands, I will always believe what my husband says above what strangers on a forum think. With that said, I've been emailing him some of the responses here and asking him if you're right. I told him not to worry about hurting my feelings, and just be honest.
> 
> Of course, if he says you're _not_ right in your conclusions you'll just say that he's, again, telling me what I want to hear. God forbid a man actually has the balls to be honest with his wife.
> 
> Moreover, I have already said a hundred times that I'm not perfect either. To him and here.


then what are you here for?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

dallasapple said:


> SORRY C2W this is a THREAT when you talk abotu GETTING someone else to fullill your needs.Its not just a threat to leave its a threat to find someone else..


 We could call this semantics. What one would call a threat, another could call a cry for help. A show of desperation, a wakeup call, if you will. I threatened by DH, I guess, this year when I told him I'd had enough of his negativity and I'd rather live alone than live with him and IT any more.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

C2W, it's very common for people to come to forums like this, expecting to be validated, and when they are then questioned _themselves_ about THEIR piece of the equation (as it's very important), they feel bombarded, attacked, and maybe even cheated just a little. After all, we're supposed to be helping YOU, aren't we?

But you'll also see that people who give advice at places like this are usually VERY good at seeing the forest AND the trees, because we don't have your perspective, nor are we invested in your marriage or your sense of self, the way you are. 

I hope you understand that the reason people are giving you all this painful advice is that we've seen, more often than not, that opening yourself up to the possibilities can be far more productive than just feeling attacked and defending yourself no matter what we say.

You seem relatively open-minded about the possibilities that we are throwing out, so I hope you can sort through them, look through a REALLY clear looking glass (not a self-defensive one), and find things you can try in your own situation. We're just trying to help.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Just so everyone here understands, I will always believe what my husband says above what strangers on a forum think. With that said, I've been emailing him some of the responses here and asking him if you're right. I told him not to worry about hurting my feelings, and just be honest.
> 
> *I'm glad you would put your husband first. But remember, strangers aren't afraid of you abandoning them or turning against them. *
> 
> ...


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Anyway, things _*have been better*_ over the last few days. I understand that things like this need to be taken slowly. We've agreed on a communication pattern which should enable us to communicate openly and honestly, but also respectfully and, hopefully, will drain away resentment. Talking once a week about what we feel the each has done well, and what we feel could be improved on, I think will make a massive difference over the long haul. He won't feel badgered and hounded because he already knows the conversation is coming, and I won't feel like I need to ignore my feelings because I know he'll really be listening. And it won't be either one of us hounding the other, but rather a discussion where we mutually discuss the improvements and the areas that still need improvement without judgment or criticism.
> 
> I'm sure that we'll both slip up at some point as neither of us is perfect, but hopefully those slip ups won't be nearly as big of a deal now that an open pathway for communication has been set in place.


Exactly. Take it slow. Occasionally you may have to nudge him a little if/when he forgets but as long as you both are moving forward consider that a positive sign. Just don't take it to a level where he shuts down because he doesn't think he can ever fully get to where you need him to be. Don't forget that he may have unrealistic expectation is his own mind about where he would like to be and he might get discouraged with himself for not living up to his own expectations for himself. Make sure you keep a close lookout for things that he does that you appreciate and really let him know that you see his efforts. Positive reinforcement is huge. I know it sounds like I am talking about him like a child but I'm really not. Even adults react better to positive feedback than negative punishment or feedback.

One other thing. Many people have stated that he is very young and may not be able to give you what a more mature man would find easier. That may be true to some extent. But he will get there over time. Make sure you give him that time. We are not born with an innate knowledge of how to treat a significant other, especially when life's problems get in the way and block our view. The fact that he has acknowledged your concerns is a lot more than many other men would do. It shows he loves you very much and is concerned for the relationship. Also, you are still young too. Cut yourself a little slack sometimes. Take the pressure off not only your husband but yourself. Just relax a bit and enjoy each other's company just like you did the other day. Believe me when I say that these things tend to work themselves out so long as the two of you keep in mind that you love each other and want to have a great marriage.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

turnera said:


> We could call this semantics. What one would call a threat, another could call a cry for help. A show of desperation, a wakeup call, if you will. I threatened by DH, I guess, this year when I told him I'd had enough of his negativity and I'd rather live alone than live with him and IT any more.


I agree thats semanics but its still a threat.And C2W had an emotional affair with a man much older than her after 6 months of marriage..(she posted the detail or the facts publically on another forum) here she is 2 and 1/2 years later saying she dreams of other men and saying maybe they should get a divorce.Her husband seems to be a nice guy who is caring and loves her that a lot of gals would be happy with.She isn't a catch that is with a lowly ogre..A cry for help? Come on..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I can see from your photo that you're absolutely beautiful. I can understand why your guy is head over heels for you.


His photo is as good as hers..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

C2W, is that true? You had an EA?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes, Kathy. He said you were wrong. He dissected your post, specifically, and went through it discussing why what you've said is wrong. My husband has _always_ been honest when something I've said or done upset him, hurt his feelings or made him feel disrespected or misunderstood. Which I have said countless times. He doesn't keep anything from me, even if he knows that what he has to say might upset me.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Yes, Kathy. He said you were wrong. He dissected your post, specifically, and went through it discussing why what you've said is wrong. My husband has _always_ been honest when something I've said or done upset him, hurt his feelings or made him feel disrespected or misunderstood. Which I have said countless times. He doesn't keep anything from me, even if he knows that what he has to say might upset me.


Ok. In that case, my input is meaningless and I will bow out of your thread and hope you find what you're hoping to. If you do manage to make this a way of life, I *would* be interested in learning how you achieved it if you're willing to share.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

bfree said:


> Exactly. Take it slow. Occasionally you may have to nudge him a little if/when he forgets but as long as you both are moving forward consider that a positive sign. Just don't take it to a level where he shuts down because he doesn't think he can ever fully get to where you need him to be. Don't forget that he may have unrealistic expectation is his own mind about where he would like to be and he might get discouraged with himself for not living up to his own expectations for himself. Make sure you keep a close lookout for things that he does that you appreciate and really let him know that you see his efforts. Positive reinforcement is huge. I know it sounds like I am talking about him like a child but I'm really not. Even adults react better to positive feedback than negative punishment or feedback.


This is something that I've been keeping in mind. I'm trying to really respond well to the improvements, while also not expecting a night and day change overnight. Looking back on the past, I can see how my realistic expectations were expressed in an unrealistic way. I wanted too much too quickly. My husband also feels that that's true, so I'm trying to remember to give him room to learn.



> One other thing. Many people have stated that he is very young and may not be able to give you what a more mature man would find easier. That may be true to some extent. But he will get there over time. Make sure you give him that time. We are not born with an innate knowledge of how to treat a significant other, especially when life's problems get in the way and block our view. The fact that he has acknowledged your concerns is a lot more than many other men would do. It shows he loves you very much and is concerned for the relationship. Also, you are still young too. Cut yourself a little slack sometimes. Take the pressure off not only your husband but yourself. Just relax a bit and enjoy each other's company just like you did the other day. Believe me when I say that these things tend to work themselves out so long as the two of you keep in mind that you love each other and want to have a great marriage.


Thanks.  I definitely agree here. I think that I have had unrealistic expectations to timing. I told him that and apologized, and he said he understood. I think we're actually on the same page for the first time in years.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> C2W, is that true? You had an EA?


It wasn't an emotional affair. If it had continued it likely would have lead to that, but I put a stop to it before it went there. It was a mutual friend of my husband's and mine. He and I talked on IM once in a while, and one night things lead to some major flattery, and then the next to inappropriate comments about his penis. I immediately told my husband, and stopped all communication with him. Not an emotional affair.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I agree thats semanics but its still a threat.And C2W had an emotional affair with a man much older than her after 6 months of marriage..(she posted the detail or the facts publically on another forum) here she is 2 and 1/2 years later saying she dreams of other men and saying maybe they should get a divorce.Her husband seems to be a nice guy who is caring and loves her that a lot of gals would be happy with.She isn't a catch that is with a lowly ogre..A cry for help? Come on..


How mature.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> It wasn't an emotional affair. If it had continued it likely would have lead to that, but I put a stop to it before it went there. It was a mutual friend of my husband's and mine. He and I talked on IM once in a while, and one night things lead to some major flattery, and then the next to inappropriate comments about his penis. I immediately told my husband, and stopped all communication with him. Not an emotional affair.


Good job in catching this before it got out of hand. Your boundaries held, you were honest and upfront with your husband, and went NC with the friend. Regardless of any other communication glitches you might have had this shows you both have the basics down and you're on the same page with the big issues. Definitely something to build on. :smthumbup:


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Also you have threatened to divorce him.Now suddenly he "agrees"....Okie dokie..Yep his true feelings" I'm sure..


Aren't we often telling new TAMERs that this is needed to wake up a spouse. That you sometimes have to be willing to lose something to save it. 

I was on a thread last week where a TAMER was explaining how he changed when his wife left. While married, he thought she was just nagging but then she left and he realized it was more than that. She was too resentful and didn't come back.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I immediately told my husband, and stopped all communication with him. Not an emotional affair.


So you called the police [ your husband ] for him?

Good move!:smthumbup:


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I agree thats semanics but its still a threat.And C2W had an emotional affair with a man much older than her after 6 months of marriage..(she posted the detail or the facts publically on another forum) here she is 2 and 1/2 years later saying she dreams of other men and saying maybe they should get a divorce.Her husband seems to be a nice guy who is caring and loves her that a lot of gals would be happy with.She isn't a catch that is with a lowly ogre..A cry for help? Come on..


How can this post be helpful to anyone? A 25 year old with 4-5 years of marriage is likely more mature than he/she was at 22 and as a newlywed. No matter, there was a lot of good advice in this thread, some of which C2W and her husband have talked about. Some actions taken like weekly conversation about how things are going.

But I found the above post to be in poor taste.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Ok. In that case, my input is meaningless and I will bow out of your thread and hope you find what you're hoping to. If you do manage to make this a way of life, I *would* be interested in learning how you achieved it if you're willing to share.



:smthumbup:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> How can this post be helpful to anyone? A 25 year old with 4-5 years of marriage is likely more mature than he/she was at 22 and as a newlywed. No matter, there was a lot of good advice in this thread, some of which C2W and her husband have talked about. Some actions taken like weekly conversation about how things are going.
> 
> But I found the above post to be in poor taste.


Because her entire marriage of 3 years was based on :finding someone else..Not commitment..And its not 4-5 years..the problems including her EA started in 6 months..Now is is later.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> But I found the above post to be in poor taste.


then her marriage is in poor taste..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Because her entire marriage of 3 years was based on :finding someone else..Not commitment..And its not 4-5 years..the problems including her EA started in 6 months..Now is is later.





dallasapple said:


> then her marriage is in poor taste..


Why bully mode? This thread is asking for advice, not nasty hateful statements. Plenty of posters have advised things C2W didn't agree with but none were attacking like this.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> then her marriage is in poor taste..


Ummm, no. Uncalled for. If you don't have anything helpful to contribute please don't post.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

O.k let her continue to post you will see..lympic1:


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

I've read through the entire thread and honestly, C2W reminds me of my wife - she needs to have the last word, the final judgement on everything which allows her to reframe every conversation on her terms. It's an effective way of trying to put words in one's mouth which is her way of achieving an 'understanding' or a 'compromise'. After any one of our arguments, if you ask her if there is agreement she believes there is when it's clear there isn't. I've learned that she simply isn't capable of or willing to detach herself from her viewpoint and the more I (or my son or my daughter) resist it the angrier she gets. It's more important to her to impose her will than validate anyone else's feelings. And yes, we often agree just to placate her. It is pointless to do otherwise.

C2W is very young so she might be able to learn to be more accepting of different viewpoints.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

VermisciousKnid said:


> And yes, we often agree just to placate her. It is pointless to do otherwise.


That was the same sense I've gotten, and why I was pushing so hard for her to back off and really pay attention to his actions, not his words.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I appreciate the advice given, even if I didn't agree with some of it. I can see why certain things were said, as much of what has been said makes sense. However, I also think that some things that were said simply don't apply. My husband not being honest about his real feelings, for one. If my husband believed my requests to be unrealistic, he would tell me so. He has before in the past. If my husband thought I was being a domineering b!tch, he would tell me because he has in the past. (Not those words, of course.) And I am the first to admit that I often do let my emotions control me. I'm working on finding the line between ignoring my emotions and being able to express them in a safe, respectful way. 

As to my husbands actions, I really do believe that the reason it's taken him so long to meet my needs is because he didn't understand what I wanted. Thundarr's post about ambiguity really flipped the light on for me. It's not that my actual needs have ever been unrealistic, but how I expected them to be met often was. I wasn't clear on what I wanted, as I felt spelling it out ruined the romance. I see now, though, that my husband has been ready and willing to meet my needs all along; he's just been waiting for me to tell him exactly what it is I need. Now that I have, things have been going better than ever before. 

Thank you again. I may not have agreed with what everyone had to say, but if you hadn't posed the questions you did, I'm not sure if my husband and I would have had such a great talk the other night.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

With supporters like these, who needs detractors?

This is a courtesy warning.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Oh good. I was logging in to report those posts. Glad to see someone's already done it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Weekly reminder to read what hubby said he loves/admires about you C2W.


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