# Men Are Getting Weaker — because We’re Not Raising Men



## EllisRedding

Here is an interesting article comparing young men currently vs. years ago. Some highlights:



> This morning, the Washington Post highlighted a study showing that the grip strength of a sample of college men had declined significantly between 1985 and 2016. Indeed, the grip strength of the sample of college men had declined so much — from 117 pounds of force to 98 — that it now matched that of older Millennial women. In other words, the average college male had no more hand strength than a 30-year-old mom.
> 
> Yes, I know it’s only one study. Yes, I know that grip strength is but one measure of overall physical fitness. But as the Post noted, these findings are consistent with other studies showing kids are less fit today. (For example, it takes children 90 seconds longer to run a mile than it did 30 years ago.) Simply put, we’re getting soft — and no cohort is getting softer faster than college men.





> That’s not to say that they don’t still carve out their own, distinctively male spaces — boys and girls are different, after all. But spend time with teen boys today and you’ll find that their common experience revolves more around Call of Duty than around work or even sports. As kids get older (and even during their teenage years), the male gaming experience is supplemented with copious amounts of porn. Thus — as Philadelphia magazine illustrated in 2012 — the devolution of man is complete:





> Our culture strips its young men of their created purpose and then wonders why they struggle. It wonders why men — who are built to be distinctive from women — flail in modern schools and workplaces designed from the ground-up for the feminine experience. Men were meant to be strong. Yet we excuse and enable their weakness. It’s but one marker of cultural decay, to be sure, but it’s a telling marker indeed. There is no virtue in physical decline.


Male Physical Decline: Masculinity Is Threatened | National Review


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## TheTruthHurts

Glad I was raised in a time before Alan Alda put forth the whiney, emotive, mamby-pamby, effete male role model.

John Wayne, Vic Morrow, Clint Eastwood, Humphrey Bogart... they were much more solid, if only 2 dimensional, role models.

My boys just graduated HS with multiple varsity sports under their belts, black belts in TKD, plus academic and music excellence.

It comes down to expectations and standards.

Fvck "society's standards". It's my standards, and to a lessor extent my wife's standards, that matter.

(My wife's standards are less important in this area because she's a traditional woman who provides the softer side of our relationship. Her focus is on raising respectful, "nice" boys. Ok by me if they have a soft, empathetic exterior that's demanded today, as long as they're men inside.)

We'll see if society undoes what we did for the boys. If so, I'll be there to kick their a55es back in line 


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## Fozzy

Something's off here. With the proliferation of internet porn, you'd expect grip strength to have doubled at least.


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## Cletus

Wow. Talk about taking a single data point and running with it. What a macho mono-dimensional measure of masculinity. 

A simple shift away from manual labor could just as easily explain something like this without all the, um, hand wringing.


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## Cletus

Fozzy said:


> Something's off here. With the proliferation of internet porn, you'd expect grip strength to have doubled at least.


Testing the wrong hand. After all, most men really are monogamous.


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## Fozzy

Cletus said:


> Wow. Talk about taking a single data point and running with it. What a *macho mono-dimensional measure of masculinity*.
> 
> A simple shift away from manual labor could just as easily explain something like this without all the, um, hand wringing.


Always available with the alluring alliteration, aren't you?


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## Cletus

Fozzy said:


> Always available with the alluring alliteration, aren't you?


You sly bear, you.


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## TheTruthHurts

It is kind of amusing they chose this measure. I wonder if the answer didn't come out right with other surrogates for masculinity and they kept searching for variables until they hit upon one that fit their thesis.

But I guess it must be true, because, you know, Science!


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## BobSimmons

What a bunch of b*lls. 

Grip strength = manhood.

Bet Bill Gates and Zuckerburg were worried about their grip strength when they were spending ungodly hours brain storming ideas that would make them billions.

The example of gaming today, seems to me back in the day, most teens were abusing alcohol, smoking **** and generally abusing their bodies..but that's manly right?

And yes I generalized.. just like this article and it's "study"


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## MJJEAN

While I may disagree that grip strength is a good measure of strength and masculinity, I do agree that the Western male has become a weaker and less traditionally masculine creature. Which is sad. If I wanted to be romantically involved with what basically amounts to a hairy women, I'd have become a lesbian.


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## Mr. Nail

OK so let's throw out grip strength.
I'm in boy Scouts There are a set of manly skills that society expects of every Boy Scout.
Tie a knot.
Find North.
Basic First aid.
Light a fire.
Swim.

I'm going to focus on tie a knot for a bit.
BSA now requires only 6 knots. Our local Summer camp has a relay race for the troops. one of the stations requires the boys to tie two of those knots selected at random. A thirty second penalty is assessed for missing the first knot 60 seconds for missing the second. So the troop selects their best knot man, And still almost every scout takes at least one penalty. I know a nine year old who can't tie his shoes. 

I agree we are not training Boys to be Men. In fact we punish then for being Boys.


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## SunCMars

Mr. Nail said:


> OK so let's throw out grip strength.
> I'm in boy Scouts There are a set of manly skills that society expects of every Boy Scout.
> Tie a knot.
> Find North.
> Basic First aid.
> Light a fire.
> Swim.
> 
> I'm going to focus on tie a knot for a bit.
> BSA now requires only 6 knots. Our local Summer camp has a relay race for the troops. one of the stations requires the boys to tie two of those knots selected at random. A thirty second penalty is assessed for missing the first knot 60 seconds for missing the second. So the troop selects their best knot man, And still almost every scout takes at least one penalty. I know a nine year old who can't tie his shoes.
> 
> I agree we are not training Boys to be Men. In fact we punish then for being Boys.


From Knot-Cho men to Snot-Nosed men.

In one Gender-Ration.


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## becareful2

MJJEAN said:


> While I may disagree that grip strength is a good measure of strength and masculinity, I do agree that the Western male has become a weaker and less traditionally masculine creature. Which is sad. If I wanted to be romantically involved with what basically amounts to a hairy women, I'd have become a lesbian.


Agreed. Forget the tight grip. What do you think of the "man bun" and the really tight jeans?


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## EllisRedding

Taking grip strength as a measure is undoubtedly a stretch lol. However, at a minimum there have been reports that men have lower T levels now than 30 yrs ago, and supposedly now there are more cases of ED among young men. So something is clearly going on, whether it be grip strength, society, environmental factors, or other factors.


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## Herschel

This thread just feels like a bunch of old curmudgeons and it was better in my day attitude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding

becareful2 said:


> Agreed. Forget the tight grip. What do you think of the "man bun" and the really tight jeans?


Lol, I was just going to mention tight jeans. I went looking for jeans a few weekends ago and just about every place I went to, nearly 99% of the selection was tight/slim fit  Seriously, wtf, the moment I see those words on the label I know to not bother and move on.


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## becareful2

Mr. Nail said:


> OK so let's throw out grip strength.
> I'm in boy Scouts There are a set of manly skills that society expects of every Boy Scout.
> Tie a knot.
> Find North.
> Basic First aid.
> Light a fire.
> Swim.
> 
> I'm going to focus on tie a knot for a bit.
> BSA now requires only 6 knots. Our local Summer camp has a relay race for the troops. one of the stations requires the boys to tie two of those knots selected at random. A thirty second penalty is assessed for missing the first knot 60 seconds for missing the second. So the troop selects their best knot man, And still almost every scout takes at least one penalty. I know a nine year old who can't tie his shoes.
> 
> I agree we are not training Boys to be Men. In fact we punish then for being Boys.


Many schools have banned dodgeball. You can't draw any cartoonish-looking guns because of the zero tolerance policy. The teacher will freak out and call the cops who will come and cuff your child. Young girls have been encouraged and empowered, while boys have been shamed and emasculated for being boys.


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## Ikaika

Herschel said:


> This thread just feels like a bunch of old curmudgeons and it was better in my day attitude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I'm an old curmudgeon, and I can tell you things were not better in my day. I don't know if my dad raised a "real" man. He was a cruel man, but I fully understand why he was so vacuous of feelings. It's not that I have swung all the way in the opposite direction, but I'm not my father. Both my sons are strong. 


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## lifeistooshort

I have teenage boys whose father has had a limited influence in their life. 

Yet somehow they don't wear skinny jeans, do quite well in school, are in martial arts as well as other sports, and while I don't know that much about their grip strength I do know they can both pick me up. 

And they don't have man buns. Eww, man's buns.....yuck.

But then again, I have a black belt so maybe that has something to do with it.

Data analysis is a shaky field.....most of it is sloppy and everyone who does it has an agenda.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uhtred

The world changes and what abilities people need change with it. 

There is little call in the modern world, to know how to move silently through a forest, to kill a deer with a primitive bow, to fight with spear or sword. Little need to know how to use a sextant, tables of logarithms, spherical geometry. its absolutely fine to do those things as a hobby, but they are not an important part of most people's lives.


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## southbound

The article mentioned that modern schools and workplaces are designed for the feminine experience. I've noticed that myself.

I worked in construction for a few years after high school. I remember we were a bunch of rough edge guys that were ready to get dirty and call it a day. We didn't care about each other's birthdays and we didn't buy each other Christmas gifts, etc.

Now that I'm a school teacher, we co-workers always have to celebrate something. Somebody just had a baby, so we're having an after-school shower. We wish everybody a happy birthday and draw names during the holidays so we can have a little faculty party after school. Every time somebody sneezes, we have to recognize it in some way. Sometimes I have to watch a Clint Eastwood marathon just to reset myself.


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## Betrayedone

Today's boys are wimps on average. Not enough physical activity required to make a living. Everything is computers and technology. Very few blue collar jobs requiring strength are availably today. Take it to the bank.....it's true. I would give my left nut to have a construction job today. I'm just a wimpy airline pilot who has to get his physical jollies through meaningless exercise. Worst move I ever made. At least the marines showed me the path to physical credibility and I still try to keep up. Today's youth are screwed. Most can't even catch their breath during light exercise.


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## Mr The Other

TheTruthHurts said:


> Glad I was raised in a time before Alan Alda put forth the whiney, emotive, mamby-pamby, effete male role model.
> 
> John Wayne, Vic Morrow, Clint Eastwood, Humphrey Bogart... they were much more solid, if only 2 dimensional, role models.
> 
> My boys just graduated HS with multiple varsity sports under their belts, black belts in TKD, plus academic and music excellence.
> 
> It comes down to expectations and standards.
> 
> Fvck "society's standards". It's my standards, and to a lessor extent my wife's standards, that matter.
> 
> (My wife's standards are less important in this area because she's a traditional woman who provides the softer side of our relationship. Her focus is on raising respectful, "nice" boys. Ok by me if they have a soft, empathetic exterior that's demanded today, as long as they're men inside.)
> 
> We'll see if society undoes what we did for the boys. If so, I'll be there to kick their a55es back in line
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wow! You are amazing.

I only wish more people on TAM would tell us about how incredible they are.


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## phillybeffandswiss

southbound said:


> The article mentioned that modern schools and workplaces are designed for the feminine experience. I've noticed that myself.
> 
> I worked in construction for a few years after high school. I remember we were a bunch of rough edge guys that were ready to get dirty and call it a day. We didn't care about each other's birthdays and we didn't buy each other Christmas gifts, etc.
> 
> Now that I'm a school teacher, we co-workers always have to celebrate something. Somebody just had a baby, so we're having an after-school shower. We wish everybody a happy birthday and draw names during the holidays so we can have a little faculty party after school. Every time somebody sneezes, we have to recognize it in some way. Sometimes I have to watch a Clint Eastwood marathon just to reset myself.


LOL. A school IS NOT, the best example to use. My dad, who is in his seventies, always complained about celebrating everything. He taught for at least 40+ years.


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## Haiku

Old man strength = real.


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## Fozzy

southbound said:


> The article mentioned that modern schools and workplaces are designed for the feminine experience. I've noticed that myself.
> 
> I worked in construction for a few years after high school. I remember we were a bunch of rough edge guys that were ready to get dirty and call it a day. We didn't care about each other's birthdays and we didn't buy each other Christmas gifts, etc.
> 
> Now that I'm a school teacher, we co-workers always have to celebrate something. Somebody just had a baby, so we're having an after-school shower. We wish everybody a happy birthday and draw names during the holidays so we can have a little faculty party after school. Every time somebody sneezes, we have to recognize it in some way. Sometimes I have to watch a Clint Eastwood marathon just to reset myself.


I've worked for a bank for nearly 20 years. This is exactly how it is.

It really does get nauseating sometimes, however I always assumed that management just encouraged all the potlucks and birthday cakes so they wouldn't have to shell out any real money for things that actually make people happy. Like bonuses.


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## uhtred

You control a machine with the power of many thousands of horses, and felt that power hurl you into the sky. You've seen sunrise turn the clouds red, and the lights of cities glittering far below. You have seen St. Elmo's fire, and the curtains of the northern light reflecting from from the arctic ice, and approach lights glimmering though rain and storm. 

Your knowledge and skill protects the lives of your passengers. 

You have seen and done things most...humans can't imagine.

Why do you miss the dirt?







Betrayedone said:


> Today's boys are wimps on average. Not enough physical activity required to make a living. Everything is computers and technology. Very few blue collar jobs requiring strength are availably today. Take it to the bank.....it's true. I would give my left nut to have a construction job today. I'm just a wimpy airline pilot who has to get his physical jollies through meaningless exercise. Worst move I ever made. At least the marines showed me the path to physical credibility and I still try to keep up. Today's youth are screwed. Most can't even catch their breath during light exercise.


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## Betrayedone

uhtred said:


> You control a machine with the power of many thousands of horses, and felt that power hurl you into the sky. You've seen sunrise turn the clouds red, and the lights of cities glittering far below. You have seen St. Elmo's fire, and the curtains of the northern light reflecting from from the arctic ice, and approach lights glimmering though rain and storm.
> 
> Your knowledge and skill protects the lives of your passengers.
> 
> You have seen and done things most...humans can't imagine.
> 
> Why do you miss the dirt?


I have lived and earned a living on both sides of the fence......Frankly, my soul is more at home when I am working with my hands in the company of the earth. When I am done with my work day and my hands are dirty and my body is tired.....I am happy for I have a feeling I have done something that will still be standing when I am long gone. Sadly, those days that were once plentiful for the the blue collar tradesman are largely gone. Makes me sad. There is honor in a day's hard work with your hands........


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## Betrayedone

I really believe kids in this country should be compelled to serve in the military upon graduation from high school. It gives them a sense of direction and a reality check that freedom is not someone else's responsibility.


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## Spotthedeaddog

re grip strength.

not surprising - far more passive games, far less tree climbing and hammer holding/digging. less bike riding (far less distance) and bikes which are mechanically more advanced. and less chores, and those chores are less physically demanding. Muscle (currently) just grow because it's cool to have, it does so to adapt to workload.


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## southbound

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. A school IS NOT, the best example to use. My dad, who is in his seventies, always complained about celebrating everything. He taught for at least 40+ years.


School might not be the best example, but I've talked with people in other jobs and it seems the atmosphere is similar, like banks, post office, etc.

I'm glad i became a teacher, and I enjoy the teaching aspect, but I do miss a work site with more of a John Wayne atmosphere where we didn't have to pretend we gave a crap about everybody's birthday. 

We brought our lunch in a bag or lunchbox and didn't have "potluck Tuesday" where we could woo over everybody's finger foods and cheese dishes, and have people think it's weird that you don't want to participate.


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## Cletus

My next door neighbor was a Real Man. He worked in construction his entire shortened life. After a decade and a half of that, he warned his son to go to school, get an education, and get a job using his brain. His body was tired. He came home from work exhausted every day. He hated the way his body was wearing out just from securing a living.

He was so much man that he refused to wear a life vest when out fishing with that same son the day his boat capsized in the bay. His son, who just graduated from college this year, swam to shore while he drowned. Meanwhile, I, his next door neighbor, have worked a six figure desk job programming for over 25 years. I do 45 minutes of aerobic exercise 5 days a week and have a resting heart rate of 60 b.p.m. 

Just maybe some of today's "wimpy" men have figured out that they don't need to work themselves to death to still be considered masculine.


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## TheTruthHurts

Mr The Other said:


> Wow! You are amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> I only wish more people on TAM would tell us about how incredible they are.




Oh I could go in and on. My girls are amazing too. 

And yes, Mr The Other Dbag, the article is about how pathetic the parents are for allowing society to raise their children. So my response is - why in the F would anyone let society set the standards for their parenting? And I cited my evidence.

But I suppose you would prefer to whine about society influencing parenting. Or whatever because frankly this bores me. I'd much rather talk about my gifted children...



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## larry.gray

Cletus said:


> My next door neighbor was a Real Man. He worked in construction his entire shortened life. After a decade and a half of that, he warned his son to go to school, get an education, and get a job using his brain. His body was tired. He came home from work exhausted every day. He hated the way his body was wearing out just from securing a living.


I've worked most of my career in electrical equipment design. I regularly see up close exactly what you are talking about. Those in the trades wear out their bodies at work. The lucky ones have only minor mishaps that accumulate to mzany aches and pains they deal with. The less lucky deal with debilatating burns or falls.


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## WorkingWife

becareful2 said:


> Agreed. Forget the tight grip. What do you think of the "man bun" and the really tight jeans?


Oh my GOD. STOP!
The man bun. SO REPULSIVE. WTH is that ABOUT?!


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## WorkingWife

spotthedeaddog said:


> re grip strength.
> 
> not surprising - far more passive games, far less tree climbing and hammer holding/digging. less bike riding (far less distance) and bikes which are mechanically more advanced. and less chores, and those chores are less physically demanding. Muscle (currently) just grow because it's cool to have, it does so to adapt to workload.


Not to mention the repetitive motions of holding electronics - phones, ipads, remote controls - actually damage your grip over time.


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## WorkingWife

becareful2 said:


> Many schools have banned dodgeball. You can't draw any cartoonish-looking guns because of the zero tolerance policy. The teacher will freak out and call the cops who will come and cuff your child. Young girls have been encouraged and empowered, while boys have been shamed and emasculated for being boys.


I read a fascinating book on this called "Boys Adrift." The author covers a lot of topics like environmental factors, video games, medications, etc. but one big topic that stuck with me is schools and how they are so geared toward how girls think and behave and really seem to disapprove of most things "boyish" like competition, physicality, not being able to sit still for as long as girls, being boisterous, not maturing mentally as fast in the early years, etc. 

Boys at many schools are getting the message that what they inherently are is not desirable. In response, many withdraw and stop trying.

Boys Adrift | Leonard Sax MD PhD | Physician, Psychologist, and Author

BTW, Kids have also gotten in trouble for creative writing exercises where they used their imaginations and included violence in their stories. Nevermind most best seller books and many popular TV shows involve all kinds of gruesome violence, when 10 year old Johnny writes a story that involves it, the teacher calls the cops and a shrink.


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## NotEasy

larry.gray said:


> I've worked most of my career in electrical equipment design. I regularly see up close exactly what you are talking about. Those in the trades wear out their bodies at work. The lucky ones have only minor mishaps that accumulate to mzany aches and pains they deal with. The less lucky deal with debilatating burns or falls.


Yes, Yes, Yes

My first summer job was in grain receival at a silo. Local farmers delivered their grain in ex WW2 trucks, covered with old tarps and dusty ropes that probably came with the trucks. Most farmers had lost a knuckle or finger or more. But they were the only ones who could tighten the dusty old ropes on the tarps. I tried once, my training at the gym didn't give me the grip strength to do it.

It really drove me to study hard, otherwise I might end up working with them, loosing body parts as I go.

And I told the story to my daughter, study hard or you may end up squabbling over really hard jobs that will cost you your health.


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## EllisRedding

WorkingWife said:


> Oh my GOD. STOP!
> The man bun. SO REPULSIVE. WTH is that ABOUT?!


You can actually buy a man bun clip on, instant transformation (into what, I guess the ultimate dbag lol)


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## Rowan

EllisRedding said:


> You can actually buy a man bun clip on, instant transformation (into what, I guess the ultimate dbag lol)


Ha! I actually have a bun clip-in. I use it for theatrical productions and the occasional historical reenactment. But, then, I'm not a man. Which makes it just a bun, not a man-bun. 

My son has long-ish hair, past his jaw. He can almost put it all up in a ponytail. We've already had _the talk_. The one where I calmly explain that there will be NO man-buns in my house! I'm his mama and I will always love him no matter what. But no man-buns! So gross!


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## EllisRedding

Rowan said:


> Ha! I actually have a bun clip-in. I use it for theatrical productions and the occasional historical reenactment. But, then, I'm not a man. Which makes it just a bun, not a man-bun.
> 
> My son has long-ish hair, past his jaw. He can almost put it all up in a ponytail. We've already had _the talk_. *The one where I calmly explain that there will be NO man-buns in my house! I'm his mama and I will always love him no matter what. But no man-buns! So gross!*


Haha, that is great


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## lifeistooshort

EllisRedding said:


> You can actually buy a man bun clip on, instant transformation (into what, I guess the ultimate dbag lol)


I have a friend who's crazy about the man bun. 

I don't get it, but I suppose if no women liked it few straight men would have it. 

Isn't it ultimately about impressing women? That's what I hear
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding

lifeistooshort said:


> I have a friend who's crazy about the man bun.
> 
> I don't get it, but I suppose if no women liked it few straight men would have it.
> 
> Isn't it ultimately about impressing women? That's what I hear
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, men "thinking" they are doing things for women vs reality lol:


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## 500yardsoffoulne

Who cares if men these days cannot lift more weight..i mean is lifting more weight or getting super fit the only purpose of men's life? Surely strength was needed back then when there were no guns or police security..nowadays the strength of your brain is only what matters most i think...and i donot say that men shouldnt be healthy but its not necessary to be super fit either.

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## SunCMars

becareful2 said:


> Agreed. Forget the tight grip. What do you think of the "man bun" and the really tight jeans?


Hahaha...good one!


Hippie Genuflexion? Bowing to the Rebellious Gods.

Nothing *new* here. Hell, men have worn this hairstyle since caveman times. Before King Edward Scissor Hand III's, era, I would think. Hard to cut hair with a stone knife.



The tight pants? Kills off sperm production, yep.

For potency....the jewels must hang in the breeze.

Then again....women like round tight butts. The tight pants empathize this flea-ture.

Buns and butts bring babes.....no ladies!


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## larry.gray

500yardsoffoulne said:


> Who cares if men these days cannot lift more weight..i mean is lifting more weight or getting super fit the only purpose of men's life? Surely strength was needed back then when there were no guns or police security..nowadays the strength of your brain is only what matters most i think..


The police can't be everywhere all the time. It's a nice benefit to have potential criminals pass you over based on your appearance.


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## 500yardsoffoulne

larry.gray said:


> The police can't be everywhere all the time. It's a nice benefit to have potential criminals pass you over based on your appearance.


Yeah you are right. But there are things like pepper spray and pocket knife etc these days so who would go to gym and build appearannce to be safe from criminals 


larry.gray said:


> The police can't be everywhere all the time. It's a nice benefit to have potential criminals pass you over based on your appearance.



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## EllisRedding

500yardsoffoulne said:


> Yeah you are right. But there are things like pepper spray and pocket knife etc these days so who would go to gym and build appearannce to be safe from criminals


What happens that one time you walk by someone trapped under a car but you are too weak to lift up ... :wink2:


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## Ikaika

The only thing my youngest son is missing that I remember was drafting class. It seems this is no longer an elective in HS. It was the only class I remember enjoying in HS along with my agriculture class. 

Why don't they teach drafting any longer? I still have my compass and and other tools (all in a worn out case).

If pure strength is the issue, then no problem. Both of my sons are strong, but there a few other developmental issues that may be missing. 


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## Personal

EllisRedding said:


> What happens that one time you walk by someone trapped under a car but you are too weak to lift up ... :wink2:


That's when you take a selfie with them...


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## EllisRedding

Personal said:


> That's when you take a selfie with them...


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## Fozzy

FrenchFry said:


> *I loved the man bun before it had a title.* I'm pretty happy its a thing these days. My son has a "boy bun" and while yes, he's little all the ladies at school love it.


Hipster overload!!! Shut it DOOOWWWWNNN!!!!


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## Fozzy

larry.gray said:


> I've worked most of my career in electrical equipment design. I regularly see up close exactly what you are talking about. Those in the trades wear out their bodies at work. The lucky ones have only minor mishaps that accumulate to mzany aches and pains they deal with. The less lucky deal with debilatating burns or falls.


I watched farming do this to my dad. He farmed because he let his "Real Man" father bully him into it.

If physically breaking yourself to the point where you can barely walk when you're older is what it takes to be a Real Man, then I'll pass.


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## Ikaika

Fozzy said:


> I watched farming do this to my dad. He farmed because he let his "Real Man" father bully him into it.
> 
> 
> 
> If physically breaking yourself to the point where you can barely walk when you're older is what it takes to be a Real Man, then I'll pass.




Modern farming is not quite as physical (still demanding) and yet yields more end product. We just love science don't we? 


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## 500yardsoffoulne

EllisRedding said:


> What happens that one time you walk by someone trapped under a car but you are too weak to lift up ... :wink2:


So i should go to gym nd build myself and all that so that some day when i find some one stuck under a car i would be able to help him? I think calling rescue is a better option for me..

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## Coffee4me2

"Now, for parents of the privileged, raising a boy to be a young man has to be an intentional act. You have to ignore the voices who are telling you to indulge your child’s inclinations — no matter what they are — and train them to be not just morally courageous but also physically strong. "

My experience as a single mom raising a son has been opposite of the above quote. I've had to ignore the modern society voices telling me NOT to indulge my sons natural inclinations. 

- He wanted to play sports with physical aggression. "Why do you let him participate in those sports? He could get hurt?" 

- He is naturally inclined to be protective and fatherly over his younger sister. "You shouldn't put that burden on him, it's not his responsibility"

- He is inclined to explore his environment. "Why do you let your teenager go on the bus and walk the streets in the city in broad daylight?" 

If I listened to these voices I would have beat out of him everything that makes feel like a man. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Fozzy

Ikaika said:


> Modern farming is not quite as physical (still demanding) and yet yields more end product. We just love science don't we?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The science was around then too, you just needed enough capital to afford decent equipment. We were making due with 40+ year old tractors, etc.


----------



## bandit.45

I want to be this guy. Not Thaughty2 (he's effete), but the Swedish dude....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ytb8GRJg8


----------



## bandit.45

Ikaika said:


> The only thing my youngest son is missing that I remember was drafting class. It seems this is no longer an elective in HS. It was the only class I remember enjoying in HS along with my agriculture class.
> 
> Why don't they teach drafting any longer? I still have my compass and and other tools (all in a worn out case).
> 
> If pure strength is the issue, then no problem. Both of my sons are strong, but there a few other developmental issues that may be missing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I loved drafting. Hell, there are high schools now that don't even offer wood-shop or auto-shop anymore. Sad.


----------



## Fozzy

bandit.45 said:


> I want to be this guy. Not Thaughty2 (he's effete), but the Swedish dude....
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ytb8GRJg8


Bill Brasky is a sonofa*****.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/69478


----------



## Rowan

Ikaika said:


> The only thing my youngest son is missing that I remember was drafting class. It seems this is no longer an elective in HS. It was the only class I remember enjoying in HS along with my agriculture class.
> 
> Why don't they teach drafting any longer? I still have my compass and and other tools (all in a worn out case).


My son's high school is set up so each kid has to complete at least two elective tracks, with each track consisting of three related courses. They still have a drafting and design track. He learned manual drafting in 9th grade, then moved on to CAD stuff last year, and will continue with CAD and design work this year with some added project management work as well. He loves his drafting classes, and it's a super-useful skill set to have!


----------



## norajane

Ikaika said:


> The only thing my youngest son is missing that I remember was drafting class. It seems this is no longer an elective in HS. It was the only class I remember enjoying in HS along with my agriculture class.
> 
> *Why don't they teach drafting any longer*? I still have my compass and and other tools (all in a worn out case).
> 
> If pure strength is the issue, then no problem. Both of my sons are strong, but there a few other developmental issues that may be missing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Money. Most schools have dropped the arts, physical education, wood shop, etc. because they have limited funding, and funding is applied only to classes that teach kids how to pass standardized tests.

Schools that have plenty of funding because they are in wealthy areas will have all the extras and then some, including computer labs where "drafting" would be a computer experience, not manual with compasses and actual drawing. BUT, those kids aren't interested in drafting. They are trying to get into top universities to fuel their investment banking and lawyering and doctoring goals.


----------



## bandit.45

Here are some of my favorite badasses who I think boys should want to emulate. If you can't identify some of them, you really are a dripping wet pVssy.


----------



## bandit.45

norajane said:


> Money. Most schools have dropped the arts, physical education, wood shop, etc. because they have limited funding, and funding is applied only to classes that teach kids how to pass standardized tests.
> 
> Schools that have plenty of funding because they are in wealthy areas will have all the extras and then some, including computer labs where "drafting" would be a computer experience, not manual with compasses and actual drawing. BUT, those kids aren't interested in drafting. They are trying to get into top universities to fuel their investment banking and lawyering and doctoring goals.


I actually know how to use a slide rule and I'm very proud of that. I have one for mathematics, one for geometry/trig and an engineering one. 

I was using mine the other day and one of my bosses, an older guy, looked at me shocked. "Boy I haven't seen one of those in years!" 

I can use it faster than a calculator.


----------



## soccermom2three

Just last year my son took the last ever shop class at his high school. They are now switching the building from auto shop to sports medicine. All other types of shop classes have switched to computer classes. My daughters high school didn't have any shop classes. Back in the day a lot of men learned basic life and safety skills in those classes. 

My husband has noticed that young men just don't know basic skills. They come to the station house and don't know car maintenance, how to mow a lawn, house repairs, names of tools and housekeeping. He has had to teach guys how to clean a bathroom and explain what a radiator does. It's a shame.


----------



## uhtred

Not so easy to program for repetitive tasks though....





bandit.45 said:


> I actually know how to use a slide rule and I'm very proud of that. I have one for mathematics, one for geometry/trig and an engineering one.
> 
> I was using mine the other day and one of my bosses, an older guy, looked at me shocked. "Boy I haven't seen one of those in years!"
> 
> I can use it faster than a calculator.


----------



## Cletus

soccermom2three said:


> My husband has noticed that young men just don't know basic skills. They come to the station house and don't know car maintenance, how to mow a lawn, house repairs, names of tools and housekeeping. He has had to teach guys how to clean a bathroom and explain what a radiator does. It's a shame.


I built an 1800 ft^2 addition to our home (with help, of course) with my own two hands. I wired the electric, plumbed the bathrooms, framed the walls, helped with the concrete, and nailed on the roof. RFN I'm building a 500 ft^2 deck around the pool from the ground up.

I have changed an engine in a car. I do all of my own auto repair. 
There is basically no task around the house that I won't tackle, but I have no formal training as a mechanic, plumber, electrician, or contractor.

Now I'm not saying this to brag. I have friends who consider me a fool for doing it at considerable cost to my free time. And you know what? They're right. Just because I'm a stubborn old curmudgeon engineer who hates to pay someone else to do a job 85% as good as a professional doesn't make me a better man. It makes me a stubborn old curmudgeon engineer who likes to buy tools. Some people are just too curious and too proud to admit that they probably shouldn't do it themselves. 

People will learn tasks that they need to get buy. If you can hire someone else to fix your car and you don't want bloody knuckles, greasy forearms, and an ever-present reek of gasoline, what's wrong with farming out the task? Hell, even I hired out the sheetrock in our addition. That's work that no one should have to do! 

The world changes. The tasks and skills required of people living in that world change. The only thing that doesn't change is the nostalgic teary eyed wistful longings for the "old ways".


----------



## brooklynAnn

soccermom2three said:


> Just last year my son took the last ever shop class at his high school. They are now switching the building from auto shop to sports medicine. All other types of shop classes have switched to computer classes. My daughters high school didn't have any shop classes. Back in the day a lot of men learned basic life and safety skills in those classes.
> 
> My husband has noticed that young men just don't know basic skills. They come to the station house and don't know car maintenance, how to mow a lawn, house repairs, names of tools and housekeeping. He has had to teach guys how to clean a bathroom and explain what a radiator does. It's a shame.


OUR high school does not even have a shop class. The new school year my son is enrolled in dance. He is a great dancer and took jazz when he was little. But he show no interest in doing anything.

Thank goodness my H is handy and can fix anything. He has been teaching our son how to do stuff around the house. But I swear the boy could see the ceiling falling down and will call me to fix it.

I feel like we miss something along the way in his growth, maybe that is why he is so meh about everything.


----------



## Ikaika

norajane said:


> Money. Most schools have dropped the arts, physical education, wood shop, etc. because they have limited funding, and funding is applied only to classes that teach kids how to pass standardized tests.
> 
> Schools that have plenty of funding because they are in wealthy areas will have all the extras and then some, including computer labs where "drafting" would be a computer experience, not manual with compasses and actual drawing. BUT, those kids aren't interested in drafting. They are trying to get into top universities to fuel their investment banking and lawyering and doctoring goals.




I totally get it, but also understand that those hand skills do a lot in terms of neurological development. 

Our schools have taken out of the curriculum some of the very skills that fuels innovation. Too technical and you build the next generation of manufacturers (mechanized, clean environment in lab coats), which is fine. But, we also need innovators or we lose on the world stage. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## brooklynAnn

I am wondering if because we are so aware of raising strong daughters, that we are neglecting the boys somehow?

Boys nowadays see their mum doing so much. She is strong and works just as hard as dad. Even at home she is the strong one and the decision maker and as such, this is affecting the way that they see themselves?


----------



## Ikaika

bandit.45 said:


> Here are some of my favorite badasses who I think boys should want to emulate. If you can't identify some of them, you really are a dripping wet pVssy.




Where I grew up, Bruce Lee was a hero:

Boards hit back

https://youtu.be/BAq8PPFTxSM

Bruce Lee kicks Chuck Norris ass

https://youtu.be/TYHZEu7Y7DU



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## rockon

"Many schools have banned dodgeball" 

"Young girls have been encouraged and empowered, while boys have been shamed and emasculated for being boys" 

"modern schools and workplaces are designed for the feminine experience"

"Hell, there are high schools now that don't even offer wood-shop or auto-shop anymore"

"The new school year my son is enrolled in dance" 


It's called the wussification of America. Don't know who coined the phrase. 

Reading this thread I am almost glad I could never have children.


----------



## Fozzy

Ikaika said:


> Where I grew up, Bruce Lee was a hero:
> 
> Boards hit back
> 
> https://youtu.be/BAq8PPFTxSM
> 
> Bruce Lee kicks Chuck Norris ass
> 
> https://youtu.be/TYHZEu7Y7DU
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Bruce was ok, but John Saxon was the shiz.

And what was up with O'Hara trying to grab Bruce's foot? Should have gone for a double-leg takedown.


----------



## bandit.45

Fozzy said:


> Bruce was ok, but John Saxon was the shiz.
> 
> And what was up with O'Hara trying to grab Bruce's foot? Should have gone for a double-leg takedown.


Who's John Saxon?


----------



## Ikaika

Fozzy said:


> Bruce was ok, but John Saxon was the shiz.
> 
> 
> 
> And what was up with O'Hara trying to grab Bruce's foot? Should have gone for a double-leg takedown.




Never happen, Bruce was the master. 

I grew up watching samurai movies with subtitles. 


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----------



## Ikaika

bandit.45 said:


> Who's John Saxon?




One of Bruce Lee's real life students taking on Bolo. He was one of many of Mr Lee's students including 

https://youtu.be/ixqgOY4m3iY

A famous basketball player

https://youtu.be/8ic2k2P_FG0


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## Ikaika

You want a strong grip, stop playing those music games on gaming consoles and try playing one of these bad boys. I'm biased (playing the bass for nearly 35 years)

https://youtu.be/pyUZh_Cbw6Q


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## rockon

Cletus said:


> I built an 1800 ft^2 addition to our home (with help, of course) with my own two hands. I wired the electric, plumbed the bathrooms, framed the walls, helped with the concrete, and nailed on the roof. RFN I'm building a 500 ft^2 deck around the pool from the ground up.
> 
> I have changed an engine in a car. I do all of my own auto repair.
> There is basically no task around the house that I won't tackle, but I have no formal training as a mechanic, plumber, electrician, or contractor.
> 
> Now I'm not saying this to brag. I have friends who consider me a fool for doing it at considerable cost to my free time. And you know what? They're right. Just because I'm a stubborn old curmudgeon engineer who hates to pay someone else to do a job 85% as good as a professional doesn't make me a better man. It makes me a stubborn old curmudgeon engineer who likes to buy tools. Some people are just too curious and too proud to admit that they probably shouldn't do it themselves.
> 
> People will learn tasks that they need to get buy. If you can hire someone else to fix your car and you don't want bloody knuckles, greasy forearms, and an ever-present reek of gasoline, what's wrong with farming out the task? Hell, even I hired out the sheetrock in our addition. That's work that no one should have to do!
> 
> The world changes. The tasks and skills required of people living in that world change. The only thing that doesn't change is the nostalgic teary eyed wistful longings for the "old ways".



Cletus, I wish I could like this a 100 times.

When I purchased my current house it was in bad condition. It was a rental house and when the renters moved out they TRASHED it. I also did most of the work myself (I had to get some help for a few things) like:

Re-roof the house - thank God it was winter (live in Florida).
Re-plum the whole house, new toilets, sinks, almost brand new kitchen.
Replace most of the dry wall.
Replace the carpet, whole house.
Paint the whole interior, exterior. 

I also was called foolish for doing all this by myself. Hell, I took 2 weeks vacation time to do much of it. But I look at it this way, I saved a minimum of $10,000 in labor costs by doing it myself. And I am confident they are done correctly. 

I have my Dad to thank for all he taught me. He raised me to take care of myself and how to do all the above mentioned repairs (and much, much more).

I just can't see most young men today being able to do any of this.


----------



## jb02157

I think it's the damn computers that are not only wrecking men they are wrecking society. Lots of boys and teens have stopped playing baseball and football in favor computer games. There also are too many computers in the work place. These days management is always thinking wrongly that records always have to be digitally stored and if it's not in a computer system it's not any good. Actually the opposite it true we were much better off with paper records.

Today life is all about computers, cell phones and internet. If we stopped using these horrible things, life would be so much better.


----------



## WorkingWife

EllisRedding said:


> You can actually buy a man bun clip on, instant transformation (into what, I guess the ultimate dbag lol)


Nooooooooooooooo...................


----------



## jb02157

rockon said:


> Cletus, I wish I could like this a 100 times.
> 
> When I purchased my current house it was in bad condition. It was a rental house and when the renters moved out they TRASHED it. I also did most of the work myself (I had to get some help for a few things) like:
> 
> Re-roof the house - thank God it was winter (live in Florida).
> Re-plum the whole house, new toilets, sinks, almost brand new kitchen.
> Replace most of the dry wall.
> Replace the carpet, whole house.
> Paint the whole interior, exterior.
> 
> I also was called foolish for doing all this by myself. Hell, I took 2 weeks vacation time to do much of it. But I look at it this way, I saved a minimum of $10,000 in labor costs by doing it myself. And I am confident they are done correctly.
> 
> I have my Dad to thank for all he taught me. He raised me to take care of myself and how to do all the above mentioned repairs (and much, much more).
> 
> I just can't see most young men today being able to do any of this.


All young men know how to do these days is mess around with computers and play computer games. They rarely have any useful skills.


----------



## EllisRedding

jb02157 said:


> I think it's the damn computers that are not only wrecking men they are wrecking society. Lots of boys and teens have stopped playing baseball and football in favor computer games. There also too many computers in the work place. These days management is always thinking wrongly that records always have to be digitally stored and if it's not in a computer system it's not any good. Actually the opposite it true we were much better off with paper records.
> 
> Today life is all about computers, cell phones and internet. If we stopped using these horrible things, life would be so much better.


Sad but true. My boys play sports but would rather miss a game so they can play on the computer. They definitely show a lot more interest/enthusiasm to play the various computer games then sports, which for me is a bit frustrating b/c I play have sports every single minute of every single day if I could. Heck, I still would now


----------



## WorkingWife

Rowan said:


> Ha! I actually have a bun clip-in. I use it for theatrical productions and the occasional historical reenactment. But, then, I'm not a man. Which makes it just a bun, not a man-bun.
> 
> My son has long-ish hair, past his jaw. He can almost put it all up in a ponytail. We've already had _the talk_. The one where I calmly explain that there will be NO man-buns in my house! I'm his mama and I will always love him no matter what. But no man-buns! So gross!


Hey, at least a man bun can be cut off. (while he sleeps, if necessary, haha.)

But seriously, gross, stupid, ridiculous hair styles can be grown out or cut off when you come to your senses. It's the young people who cover themselves in tattoos or make huge holes in their ear lobes that I'd be worried about as a parent.

Although, whatever thought process goes into "I want a man bun" IS concerning.


----------



## EllisRedding

WorkingWife said:


> Hey, at least a man bun can be cut off. (while he sleeps, if necessary, haha.)
> 
> But seriously, gross, stupid, ridiculous hair styles can be grown out or cut off when you come to your senses. It's the young people who cover themselves in tattoos or make huge holes in their ear lobes that I'd be worried about as a parent.
> 
> Although, whatever thought process goes into "I want a man bun" IS concerning.


I stopped buzzing my hair and now letting my hair grow back just so I could wear a hair bun >


----------



## WorkingWife

Rowan said:


> Ha! I actually have a bun clip-in. I use it for theatrical productions and the occasional historical reenactment. But, then, I'm not a man. Which makes it just a bun, not a man-bun.


Check this out at the 11:00 minute mark! This is what I'd like to try with my hair some day. 
https://youtu.be/mleahUWL2Rs

But then again, I too am a woman.  

BTW, I always assumed "Rowan" was a guy for some reason! But even then considering your bun was for theatrics and reenactments, it did not concern me too much. ;-)


----------



## Cletus

rockon said:


> I just can't see most young men today being able to do any of this.


I know my son can, or at least knows that he can try. He was with me every step of the way. But I won't look down on him as a man if he makes enough money in life to pay others to do it. We acquire the skills we want and need, no the skills others think we need.


----------



## jb02157

EllisRedding said:


> Sad but true. My boys play sports but would rather miss a game so they can play on the computer. They definitely show a lot more interest/enthusiasm to play the various computer games then sports, which for me is a bit frustrating b/c I play have sports every single minute of every single day if I could. Heck, I still would now


I definitely hear you! Saturday mornings are reserved for a 30 to 40 mile bike ride. I only wish my kids would join me.


----------



## Cletus

jb02157 said:


> Today life is all about computers, cell phones and internet. If we stopped using these horrible things, life would be so much better.


Not mine. I'm one of those people you have to "thank" for the digital revolution, having worked in various related fields since about the time the PC was taking off until today. So I guess that makes me the enemy of today's youth?


----------



## Ikaika

Somebody say football. My wife does not want my youngest to play, but that kid has been a pistol of energy his whole life. The only way to get him to release his energy, 88









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----------



## meson

Cletus said:


> Not mine. I'm one of those people you have to "thank" for the digital revolution, having worked in various related fields since about the time the PC was taking off until today. So I guess that makes me the enemy of today's youth?



No it doesn't to me. Technology is where the productivity of business is at these days. 

Here is my group of bad a$$es:





















































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Coffee4me2

One aspect of modern life that I find amusing is that kids of all ages are apparently too weak and irresponsible to carry school books to and from their homes. 

My children rarely have to carry books. They are given 2 books (so they could leave one at home) or they were allowed to keep their books in the classroom (because then they won't lose them) or the books are stored in their lockers all year because the teacher doesn't use the book. 

The kids that do cart their books around have wheels on their backpacks so they don't have to carry those heavy books. 

I guess books today must be a lot heavier than they were the 16 years I went to school and carried my books. 


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----------



## Fozzy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbU4Cb4A4-o

Still relevant.


----------



## bandit.45

Ikaika said:


> One of Bruce Lee's real life students taking on Bolo. He was one of many of Mr Lee's students including


I don't remember seeing him on any cereal boxes. 

Bruce Jenner used to be a man's man, until he shot out a sprocket and decided to go girl. Idiot.


----------



## bandit.45

(Edited for sexist comments. )


----------



## Betrayedone

bandit.45 said:


> (Edited for sexist comments. )


.....now that's funny right there......I don't care who you are.....!


----------



## larry.gray

Ikaika said:


> The only thing my youngest son is missing that I remember was drafting class. It seems this is no longer an elective in HS. It was the only class I remember enjoying in HS along with my agriculture class.
> 
> Why don't they teach drafting any longer? I still have my compass and and other tools (all in a worn out case).


I took drafting in HS, went into engineering, and never used the skill professionaly. It was dead in the late '80s. The benefits of CAD were too great.

In mechanical engineering it's all 3d design. Details aren't even described in 2d as computer aided machining can create the parts without using prints. 2d is just used to detail assembly information. 

PIn electrical engineering. If you're going to a circuit board, there are integrated packages that link the schematic, layout (the copper tracks) , bill of materials, assembly information and automated test. The quality if the product, the speed and accuracy is no comparison.


----------



## larry.gray

norajane said:


> Schools that have plenty of funding because they are in wealthy areas will have all the extras and then some, including computer labs where "drafting" would be a computer experience, not manual with compasses and actual drawing. BUT, those kids aren't interested in drafting. They are trying to get into top universities to fuel their investment banking and lawyering and doctoring goals.


Meanwhile most engineering programs have unfilled slots because there are not enough desiring an engineering career.


----------



## larry.gray

rockon said:


> It's called the wussification of America. Don't know who coined the phrase.


Rush Limbaugh. He's also coined the "chickification of America" and the phrase "Oprahization of America."


----------



## jb02157

larry.gray said:


> Rush Limbaugh. He's also coined the "chickification of America" and the phrase "Oprahization of America."


The more technology and computers run our lives the worse this will get.


----------



## Ikaika

larry.gray said:


> I took drafting in HS, went into engineering, and never used the skill professionaly. It was dead in the late '80s. The benefits of CAD were too great.
> 
> 
> 
> In mechanical engineering it's all 3d design. Details aren't even described in 2d as computer aided machining can create the parts without using prints. 2d is just used to detail assembly information.
> 
> 
> 
> PIn electrical engineering. If you're going to a circuit board, there are integrated packages that link the schematic, layout (the copper tracks) , bill of materials, assembly information and automated test. The quality if the product, the speed and accuracy is no comparison.




I guess for the second time my point was lost on this issue. I get though we will develop a different brain over time. That's cool. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## larry.gray

jb02157 said:


> There also are too many computers in the work place. These days management is always thinking wrongly that records always have to be digitally stored and if it's not in a computer system it's not any good. Actually the opposite it true we were much better off with paper records.


Are you for real or a satire?

I've seen far too many cases where a good database person can mine data in ways that would take searching papers for years.

My first example is in banking. Do you remember life in paper banking days? My dad was in computers in their infancy, bringing them into use st a major bank. I remeber the evolution from checks or cash with manual processing to what we have today. Do you miss taking your paycheck in and writting checks to pay bills? I don't. I spend minutes on my bills every month.

I have worked on manufacturing lines that make 90 widgets a second. Not cheap stuff, like $10,000 a minute when running. We had over 100 records on every widget. I've used data mining to track back and resolve quality issues. Is that even possible with paper? No way, that's 1.2 million numbers per day.


----------



## larry.gray

Ikaika said:


> I guess for the second time my point was lost on this issue. I get though we will develop a different brain over time. That's cool.


Your point was not lost. There are two parts though, spatial reasoning and manual dexterity with tools.

The first part is still relevant.

The second is a hobby. It does develop brain skills. It does not translate into useful job skills in the tech world.


----------



## jb02157

larry.gray said:


> Are you for real or a satire?
> 
> I've seen far too many cases where a good database person can mine data in ways that would take searching papers for years.
> 
> My first example is in banking. Do you remember life in paper banking days? My dad was in computers in their infancy, bringing them into use st a major bank. I remeber the evolution from checks or cash with manual processing to what we have today. Do you miss taking your paycheck in and writting checks to pay bills? I don't. I spend minutes on my bills every month.
> 
> I have worked on manufacturing lines that make 90 widgets a second. Not cheap stuff, like $10,000 a minute when running. We had over 100 records on every widget. I've used data mining to track back and resolve quality issues. Is that even possible with paper? No way, that's 1.2 million numbers per day.


I'm for real. Computers are really a sickness in this society. I'd go back to paper banking in a minute. I still write checks and will continue to do so. I'm not going to trust a damn computer, they screw things up too much.


----------



## Ikaika

jb02157 said:


> I'm for real. Computers are really a sickness in this society. I'd go back to paper banking in a minute. I still write checks and will continue to do so. I'm not going to trust a damn computer, they screw things up too much.




I would not. I find writing a check useless and cumbersome. I get up to the hour in my check balance and in two to three clicks I can transfer funds to pay my bills. 

I think this is different than helping to develop the bipedal tool maker brain. Skills that most think are archaic and obsolete actually help in developing a cognitive tool maker. The cerebral has plasticity and can develop in interesting ways. Is is better or worse? I don't know, but the dynamic certainly is different. 


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----------



## Ikaika

larry.gray said:


> Your point was not lost. There are two parts though, spatial reasoning and manual dexterity with tools.
> 
> 
> 
> The first part is still relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> The second is a hobby. It does develop brain skills. It does not translate into useful job skills in the tech world.




No matter how sophisticated our computers become, we are still hunter/gatherer tool makers. Usefulness is dependent upon plasticity of development not actual application, "wax on, wax off". 


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## Cletus

jb02157 said:


> The more technology and computers run our lives the worse this will get.


Then by all means, put down the keyboard man. Before you grow a vagina, if it's not too late already!


----------



## Ikaika

I'm definitely not Samson, my wife thinks I look stronger with shorter hair. The alternative is to look like Einstein without the intellect. So, no man bun (never even knew this term prior to TAM) for me. 


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----------



## Apexmale

Betrayedone said:


> I have lived and earned a living on both sides of the fence......Frankly, my soul is more at home when I am working with my hands in the company of the earth. When I am done with my work day and my hands are dirty and my body is tired.....I am happy for I have a feeling I have done something that will still be standing when I am long gone. Sadly, those days that were once plentiful for the the blue collar tradesman are largely gone. Makes me sad. There is honor in a day's hard work with your hands........


I know what you're saying. We live in a culture that generally values intellect and reasoning with words. We tend to think of working with the hands, of building something physical, as degraded skills reserved only for those who are less intelligent. I can only assume that maybe that is why some guys would rather just use their time working in more comforting enviroments with A/C. This is an extremely counterproductive cultural value. The human brain evolved in intimate conjunction with the hand. Many of our earliest survival skills depended on elaborate hand-eye coordination and today, it's becoming pretty darn important again. In my profession, I call it target acquisition and neutralizing that target. I'd rather be outside getting dirty myself.


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## Blondilocks

Toshiro Mifune could have rocked the man bun.


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## VladDracul

Fozzy said:


> Something's off here. With the proliferation of internet porn, you'd expect grip strength to have doubled at least.


Use to play with a joy stick. Now its a mouse.


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## larry.gray

Cletus said:


> Then by all means, put down the keyboard man. Before you grow a vagina, if it's not too late already!


How about the irony of b!tching about how computers are terrible on an internet forum.

Hint: it's hosted on computers, and viewed on computers. Even if you use a phone or tablet, guess what, they are computers.


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## MikeTO

Let's see more and more boys being rasied by single mothers. The media and women tell boys to be sensitive and with the chemicals in plastic that is estrogen makes them less masculine.


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## southbound

Coffee4me2 said:


> One aspect of modern life that I find amusing is that kids of all ages are apparently too weak and irresponsible to carry school books to and from their homes.
> 
> My children rarely have to carry books. They are given 2 books (so they could leave one at home) or they were allowed to keep their books in the classroom (because then they won't lose them) or the books are stored in their lockers all year because the teacher doesn't use the book.
> 
> The kids that do cart their books around have wheels on their backpacks so they don't have to carry those heavy books.
> 
> I guess books today must be a lot heavier than they were the 16 years I went to school and carried my books.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe we are spoon feeding and making sure everything is convenient and completely stress free for kids anymore. I agree about the books; and this is reflected in other areas as well.

I hear the word "transition" as it relates to school until i could puke. 
Where I'm from, when a student moves from middle school to high school, all these transition activities have to occur to make the change as smooth as possible.

My transition from middle to high school was that I left the last day of middle school, and when school started back, the bus dropped me off at the high school; that was my transition, and i think my classmates and i turned out ok. We actually had to figure out how a few things worked on our own.


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## southbound

As with most subjects, this one can be made as complicated and deep as one wants to take it, but simply put, society isn't producing as many men that are the John Wayne/Clint Eastwood type anymore, not only in physical strength, but personality as well.


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## Ynot

500yardsoffoulne said:


> So i should go to gym nd build myself and all that so that some day when i find some one stuck under a car i would be able to help him? I think calling rescue is a better option for me..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G531H using Tapatalk


No you should go to the gym to take care of the place you will live in for all of your time on earth. Because after you ruin your body by ignoring it for all those years while you sit on the couch eating hot pockets and playing video games, it might dawn on you why you have high cholesterol, bad knees, an aching back and can't see your d!ck when you pee.


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## Ikaika

Ynot said:


> No you should go to the gym to take care of the place you will live in for all of your time on earth. Because after you ruin your body by ignoring it for all those years while you sit on the couch eating hot pockets and playing video games, it might dawn on you why you have high cholesterol, bad knees, an aching back and can't see your d!ck when you pee.




True to this and as age creeps up on a person it is even more imperative to take care of oneself and not fall prey to a society that is 

Too sedentary 
Too satiated 
&
Too sanitary

What I find interesting (being the old man in the gym among 20 and 30 year olds), how very few of these folks can just put their smart phone in their gym bag and just forget about it for an hour or two. I think I'm the only one that does not check their phone between reps. So, I talk to walls rather than the person next to me between reps/sets. I'm old. 


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## MrsAldi

Are they getting weaker physically & emotionally? 

I would be willing to overlook physical strength but emotional & mental, I couldn't personally.
You can build muscle & strength, building confidence however is harder to do. 








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## 500yardsoffoulne

Ynot said:


> No you should go to the gym to take care of the place you will live in for all of your time on earth. Because after you ruin your body by ignoring it for all those years while you sit on the couch eating hot pockets and playing video games, it might dawn on you why you have high cholesterol, bad knees, an aching back and can't see your d!ck when you pee.


My point was that MUSCLES arent important..healthy living and eating is..

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## Ikaika

500yardsoffoulne said:


> My point was that MUSCLES arent important..healthy living and eating is..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G531H using Tapatalk




Not true, from the perspective of maintaining healthy joints, muscles are in fact very important. Not that one has to maintain a level equivalent to a body builder but muscle mass is important (to the level your genetics will allow). Also since muscles are the most bio energetically expensive tissue you have it is an important way to reduce body fat in our modern lifestyle. Not so important if you are living the hunter/gatherer lifestyle, but we are no longer there. 


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## 500yardsoffoulne

Ikaika said:


> Not true, from the perspective of maintaining healthy joints, muscles are in fact very important. Not that one has to maintain a level equivalent to a body builder but muscle mass is important (to the level your genetics will allow). Also since muscles are the most bio energetically expensive tissue you have it is an important way to reduce body fat in our modern lifestyle. Not so important if you are living the hunter/gatherer lifestyle, but we are no longer there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes, mild stretching n excercise is necessary but building muscles so that u can lift up super heavy **** is not necessary

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## jld

MrsAldi said:


> Are they getting weaker physically & emotionally?
> 
> I would be willing to overlook physical strength but emotional & mental, I couldn't personally.
> You can build muscle & strength, building confidence however is harder to do.


Totally agree.


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## SimplyAmorous

free image uploading

This is kinda true.. sorry to say... our sons love their video games.. I hate the da** things.. and we're guilty of not putting our foot down enough to keep them off of them..

On comparing my own husband to the article.. the whole "hand grip" thing..... although he was bullied some in early high school (for his lunch money, not sure).. he was never a BIG guy, didn't play sports...but ya know.. he grew up to be a hell of a worker.. kinda what the 2nd part of the article was talking about when it said ...

*"None of my nerdiness relieved me of the responsibility of learning how to be a man — a protector, builder, and fixer.... " 
*
So a man's manliness can't all be looked upon as in "how much can you bench press"... husband used to work with a guy who'd go on about how great he was in wrestling, he can take anyone down.. demonstrated in front of me one day- when we visited his camp..... oh he had the STRENGTH... but ya know. he whined on the job, complained all the time ...some of those guys who "worked out" were on the lazy side at work... he'd say they were as worthless as "ti*s on a bull"... 

Work ethic, being responsible to whatever you put your hands to, Keeping one's WORD, faithfulness, commitment.. My husband is old fashioned in the way he still believes a man is to Protect and Provide for his wife / family, you do what you have to Do...

I greatly admire these things..


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## Ikaika

SimplyAmorous said:


> free image uploading
> 
> This is kinda true.. sorry to say... our sons love their video games.. I hate the da** things.. and we're guilty of not putting our foot down enough to keep them off of them..
> 
> On comparing my own husband to the article.. the whole "hand grip" thing..... although he was bullied some in early high school (for his lunch money, not sure).. he was never a BIG guy, didn't play sports...but ya know.. he grew up to be a hell of a worker.. kinda what the 2nd part of the article was talking about when it said ...
> 
> *"None of my nerdiness relieved me of the responsibility of learning how to be a man — a protector, builder, and fixer.... "
> *
> So a man's manliness can't all be looked upon as in "how much can you bench press"... husband used to work with a guy who'd go on about how great he was in wrestling, he can take anyone down.. demonstrated in front of me one day- when we visited his camp..... oh he had the STRENGTH... but ya know. he whined on the job, complained all the time ...some of those guys who "worked out" were on the lazy side at work... he'd say they were as worthless as "ti*s on a bull"...
> 
> Work ethic, being responsible to whatever you put your hands to, Keeping one's WORD, faithfulness, commitment.. My husband is old fashioned in the way he still believes a man is to Protect and Provide for his wife / family, you do what you have to Do...
> 
> I greatly admire these things..




We put time limits on our boys video games. Needless to say my youngest is a full on T filled jock, football, basketball and weightlifting in the offseason. Sometimes too much. 

My oldest participates in Special Olympics powerlifting. 

We are not trying to build muscle boys, however both activities helps with their adhd tendencies. Helps them focus mentally when it is important to do so. 


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## Ynot

MrsAldi said:


> Are they getting weaker physically & emotionally?
> 
> I would be willing to overlook physical strength but emotional & mental, I couldn't personally.
> You can build muscle & strength, building confidence however is harder to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Yes to both, weaker physically and emotionally.
First off humans in general have become much more sedentary and less active. Human labor is no longer needed to survive. In fact it is hardly needed simply to exist anymore with advances in technology. Unfortunately many today (not just the young either) are all to willing to "take it easy" and simply get by with as little effort as possible. That is why we see such an explosion in the rates of obesity and in diseases such as heart disease and diabetes.
Secondly men in particular are being immersed in a very female dominated culture. Men are not being taught or allowed to be masculine and when they are, they are often ostracized and ridiculed. Look at TV shows - most men are simply there as comic foils for the uber successful, all knowing and well rounded females that dominate the TV shows. Culture is producing a bunch of men, (I know, I was one of them) that don't know how to be masculine. This wreaks havoc on the emotional state of many men.


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## southbound

SimplyAmorous said:


> *"None of my nerdiness relieved me of the responsibility of learning how to be a man — a protector, builder, and fixer.... "
> *
> So a man's manliness can't all be looked upon as in "how much can you bench press"... husband used to work with a guy who'd go on about how great he was in wrestling, he can take anyone down.. demonstrated in front of me one day- when we visited his camp..... oh he had the STRENGTH... but ya know. he whined on the job, complained all the time ...some of those guys who "worked out" were on the lazy side at work... he'd say they were as worthless as "ti*s on a bull"...
> 
> Work ethic, being responsible to whatever you put your hands to, Keeping one's WORD, faithfulness, commitment.. My husband is old fashioned in the way he still believes a man is to Protect and Provide for his wife / family, you do what you have to Do...
> 
> I greatly admire these things..


I agree 100%; being a man isn't all about how much you can bench press or what your job is; it also has a lot to do with attitude. 

I agree that just because someone is a weightlifter doesn't mean they could do a physical days work like some can. I live in a rural area where physical labor is still around a little more than some places. I've seen those muscle boys wilt within 30 minutes when you get them in the hot sun pouring concrete, putting on a roof, fencing, or hauling in hay. Although I haven't heard the word sissy used in a while, that's what it would have been called in my younger days, but I suppose those guys are all man by today's standards. 

I know this is not the norm, but I personally know a man who is 86 years old, and he can work as hard physically as any 30 year old I know. His wife said he has finally gotten to the point that he usually takes a mid-day nap to keep up his energy, but when he's awake, he's a ball of fire. It's what he has always been accustomed to. 

He's the type of guy who doesn't need a gym, because his everyday life is active enough, which is the way a lot of people used to be.


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## Ynot

500yardsoffoulne said:


> My point was that MUSCLES arent important..healthy living and eating is..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G531H using Tapatalk


Healthy living and eating are what lead to muscles. Form follows function, and when your only function in life is to consume calories without physical activity, your form follows that function and you get fat, slovenly and things stop working right because they aren't being used.
Nobody says you need to be Arnold Schwartzenegger. But that doesn't change the fact that you either use it or lose it.
It makes me sick to see so many people (young and old ) choose to waste away rather than develop their bodies into the most efficient and comfortable aspects of the selves.


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## Ikaika

Ynot said:


> Yes to both, weaker physically and emotionally.
> 
> First off humans in general have become much more sedentary and less active. Human labor is no longer needed to survive. In fact it is hardly needed simply to exist anymore with advances in technology. Unfortunately many today (not just the young either) are all to willing to "take it easy" and simply get by with as little effort as possible. That is why we see such an explosion in the rates of obesity and in diseases such as heart disease and diabetes.
> 
> Secondly men in particular are being immersed in a very female dominated culture. Men are not being taught or allowed to be masculine and when they are, they are often ostracized and ridiculed. Look at TV shows - most men are simply there as comic foils for the uber successful, all knowing and well rounded females that dominate the TV shows. Culture is producing a bunch of men, (I know, I was one of them) that don't know how to be masculine. This wreaks havoc on the emotional state of many men.




We are still hunter/gatherers. Many of our modern diseases can be attributed to what has been termed mismatched diseases. 

All boils down to a lifestyle that is 

Too sedentary 
Too satiated 
Too sterile

Even the chairs (with backrest) can be attributed to many of the back problems we see. Our East African ancestors sat on rocks and used tiny back muscles to keep their balance. They walked an average of 12Km/day, ate tubers, insects and apple like fruits with all the sweetness of a carrot. They drank out of streams teaming with bacteria, some beneficial some not so much. They did not experience allergies as their TH1 levels kept their TH2 levels in check. 

Meat was a treat, but not a main portion of their diet. They depended heavily on living in small cooperative tribes. Individualism was not an advantageous way of life. 

It really is who we are for most of our existence on earth. Not until around 10K BCE did we begin to manipulate our environment and situation in life that started us down the mismatched path. Each revolution bring more changes and exacerbating the mismatch. 

It's who we are. 


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## thenub

I don't think it's just men getting weaker. I think that society as a whole is weaker and my take on it is too many lawyers and social workers being elected and not enough ordinary people. 

I see too many parents not letting their children have fun because they may get hurt. Here's an example. 

Friends of ours from my daughter's gymnastics club would never let her do things like jump on the bed or climb trees as she may hurt herself. We on the other hand didn't overly encourage it bet let our daughter know the risks of what could happen. 

Fast forward a couple of years. Our daughter is now competing at a level twice what our friend's daughter is and her parents are upset their daughter isn't at the same level. 

Why? I think it is an internal conflict in the child being trained. All her life she was told by her parents not to do things because she will hurt herself. Then she goes to the gym and is told to pretty much do the things her parents told her not to do. 

We let our daughter do plenty of things at 3-4years old that would make most modern parents cringe. She was using a hot glue gun at 3yrs old. At 4 years old she was making her own jigsaw puzzles with scroll saw in my workshop. She would climb and sit on top of a 6' fence with our neighbor's 12yr old daughter. 

Our daughter is now 12yrs old. She is the highest level competitor in her gym. We didn't invoke unnecessary fears on her, instead we encouraged her to face her fears. 

Right from the start my wife and I refused to have our girls join the protective "bubble wrap" generation where kids have to be protected against anything and everything. 

The funny part of all of this is our daughters don't spend countless hours playing video games or surfing the net on their phones. They enjoy being active and my 12 yr old actually asked me to lie about her age so she could go lift weights with me. 

I don't have any boys but what I have seen from our friends that do is, most are protected by bubble wrap so they won't get hurt either. I can't really blame the parents as most of them were protected the same way. 

If there were some kind of apocalypse, and people had to depend on their skill taught by their parents and society in general, how would modern society hold up against that of 50-60 years ago? I don't think there is an app to take down a deer to feed a hungry family. 



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## 2ntnuf

Dad showed me how to cut grass, take care of auto maintenance, the names and uses of hand tools, how to grow vegetables, throw and catch a baseball, and make minor repairs at home. Education and organized sports taught the mechanical drawing, typing, wood shop, how to play baseball, and basketball.

I don't think it's society, but parents who have forgotten or were never taught how to have fun teaching skills to their sons, and oh my, I get murdered for this, and their daughters. I tried to teach my daughter many of these "manly" things. She didn't have to be ripped with muscles and callouses, but I wanted her to know the basics. I don't want her getting ripped off because her femininity makes her seem naïve and uneducated. 

Sorry guys. That's how I see it. Most girls won't want to dig a ditch or change an engine anyway, but if she needs someone to do it, she will be less likely to be ripped off. If she really has to do it, at least she will have an idea of how to get started. 

I also very much agree with @Coffee4me2. Each child will show you their interests. Go with them, but don't focus all their education on just those things. They all need to have well-rounded educations. 

They have to know, as another member posted, that their bodies will take a beating and they will have aches and pains. Some folks love what they do so they don't care about those things as much. Pain is pushed aside like fighters do in the ring and exercise will lessen it. Don't stop them from pursuing what they love. 

Most parents just want their kids happy and healthy. That doesn't always mean being wealthy.


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## meson

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think it's society, but parents who have forgotten or were never taught how to have fun teaching skills to their sons, and oh my, I get murdered for this, and their daughters. I tried to teach my daughter many of these "manly" things. She didn't have to be ripped with muscles and callouses, but I wanted her to know the basics. I don't want her getting ripped off because her femininity makes her seem naïve and uneducated.



Very true! I see parents passing on less knowledge to there kids as time goes on. My wife benefited tremendously from watching her dad and learning his techniques. I am trying to pass on what I know to my kids to empower them to a succeed in what ever they do. I taught my daughter how to climb outdoors and she used that skill to help land a job. Not all knowledge should come from school by a longshot.


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## 2ntnuf

meson said:


> Very true! I see parents passing on less knowledge to there kids as time goes on. My wife benefited tremendously from watching her dad and learning his techniques. I am trying to pass on what I know to my kids to empower them to a succeed in what ever they do. I taught my daughter how to climb outdoors and she used that skill to help land a job. Not all knowledge should come from school by a longshot.


And we're always looking for things to do that are considered quality time with our loved ones. 

Even if they seem to hate it, when they get older, they will appreciate it. As long as they aren't forced abusively. It has to be a little fun, at least. 

A reward of treating them more like an adult is nice. Showing them how to pay themselves for getting something important done is a way to grow in emotional maturity for both the parent and child. Like getting a nice shower after and shaving and throwing on some nice clothes and sharing some after shave. Then, maybe getting a little ice cream cone or something nice for a reward. 

The work has been done. Calories burned. Something small won't break the bank or the diet. For those who cannot eat that due to an illness, there are other rewards like purchasing a new song or a book to read. There's always something. 

The trouble is, some get those things all the time and it is no longer a reward, but an entitlement. 

Hell, I don't know. We all have our own way of doing things.


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## thenub

2ntnuf said:


> Dad showed me how to cut grass, take care of auto maintenance, the names and uses of hand tools, how to grow vegetables, throw and catch a baseball, and make minor repairs at home. Education and organized sports taught the mechanical drawing, typing, wood shop, how to play baseball, and basketball.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it's society, but parents who have forgotten or were never taught how to have fun teaching skills to their sons, and oh my, I get murdered for this, and their daughters. I tried to teach my daughter many of these "manly" things. She didn't have to be ripped with muscles and callouses, but I wanted her to know the basics. I don't want her getting ripped off because her femininity makes her seem naïve and uneducated.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry guys. That's how I see it. Most girls won't want to dig a ditch or change an engine anyway, but if she needs someone to do it, she will be less likely to be ripped off. If she really has to do it, at least she will have an idea of how to get started.
> 
> 
> 
> I also very much agree with @Coffee4me2. Each child will show you their interests. Go with them, but don't focus all their education on just those things. They all need to have well-rounded educations.
> 
> 
> 
> They have to know, as another member posted, that their bodies will take a beating and they will have aches and pains. Some folks love what they do so they don't care about those things as much. Pain is pushed aside like fighters do in the ring and exercise will lessen it. Don't stop them from pursuing what they love.
> 
> 
> 
> Most parents just want their kids happy and healthy. That doesn't always mean being wealthy.



I was in highschool just when computers were making their way into a lot of the workplaces. Back then a computer tech job came with a hefty salary. The school systems started to really push students in that direction and it was usually at the expense of the shop classes. 

Now that most students are tech savvy, the computer tech jobs in a lot of places aren't as high paying as they once were due to market saturation. On the flip side, an electrician or plumber can command a very good rate of pay as a good portion of society looks on that type of work as menial even though every computer needs to be plugged in and as far as I know, everyone still needs to take a dump now and then. 

I believe society has helped in turning not just men but our whole culture into weaker people. 

A kid may be able to retrieve computer trouble codes from a car, but unless they have been taught how to use tools by either a parent or a teacher, they'll be SOL. 

I've seen parent dote after their kids to the point the kid can barely most their own toast in the morning let alone cook a meal (something that has also gone to the wayside in the school system these days).

We have our girls (12&14), plan and cook one family dinner each per week. We don't care where they get the recipe but they have to make a list of any grocery items needed and are brought shopping and they pick out what they need. 

Enforcing this routine wasn't difficult and it yielded some pretty good results. They are much more willing to try new foods, they learned to clean up not only after themselves, but a whole family meal worth of dishes and believe it or not, it helped them both with their self esteem. 

Sure technology is great but if there isn't anyone willing to build the required infrastructure, it's all going to come crashing down. If that happens, what will the bubble wrap generation do?



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## Fozzy

Ikaika said:


> Even the chairs (with backrest) can be attributed to many of the back problems we see.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not disbelieving you on this at all, but do you have some data on this?


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## Ikaika

Fozzy said:


> Not disbelieving you on this at all, but do you have some data on this?




Lots of research references found in this book. It's a great read:

http://www.npr.org/2013/09/30/22777...dies-struggle-to-stay-healthy-in-modern-times


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## Fozzy

Ikaika said:


> Lots of research references found in this book. It's a great read:
> 
> How Our Stone Age Bodies Struggle To Stay Healthy In Modern Times : NPR
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Some of this mirrors the Paleo diet/lifestyle. What's your take on that?


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## Ikaika

Fozzy said:


> Some of this mirrors the Paleo diet/lifestyle. What's your take on that?




Read the book - a true paleo diet is one consisting of berries, dug up roots, apple like fruits with all the sweetness of a carrot, lot of insects (large portions of maggots) and occasional fermented meats (as in our ancestors were more successful as scavengers than hunters). After all we are still hunter/gatherers. Our anatomy and physiology has changed very little from the small tribal bands that migrated out of Eastern Africa. 

So my take on it, is that it is impossible to completely replicate the paleo diet. Does this imply defeat? No, after all there is no situation as the fittest. Biologist correctly suggest "survival of the fitter". However we are not well fit to consume as many calories as we do now. We are:
Too satiated
Too sedentary 
Too sanitary 

And hence the many mismatched diseases that plague modern **** sapiens. 


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## Fozzy

Ikaika said:


> Read the book - a true paleo diet is one consisting of berries, dug up roots, apple like fruits with all the sweetness of a carrot, lot of insects (large portions of maggots) and occasional fermented meats (as in our ancestors were more successful as scavengers than hunters). After all we are still hunter/gatherers. Our anatomy and physiology has changed very little from the small tribal bands that migrated out of Eastern Africa.
> 
> So my take on it, is that it is impossible to completely replicate the paleo diet. Does this imply defeat? No, after all there is no situation as the fittest. Biologist correctly suggest "survival of the fitter". However we are not well fit to consume as many calories as we do now. We are:
> Too satiated
> Too sedentary
> Too sanitary
> 
> And hence the many mismatched diseases that plague modern **** sapiens.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




I think this is an example of how we've outsmarted our own biology. Our evolution hasn't really changed much, yet our intellect has so outpaced our biology that we're destroying ourselves. Sugar is a prime example. You mention that a true paleo diet doesn't include anything sweeter than a carrot (debatable, depending on the availability of sweeter fruits), yet our intellect has allowed the harvesting of enormous quantities of sugar via sugarcane, corn, beets and other sources year-round, which appeals to our lesser developed biology.

The diabetes epidemic, along with obesity, heart disease, and many other ailments I believe can be traced back to not just the agricultural revolution, but the capitalistic marketing revolution compounding upon it.


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## Ikaika

Fozzy said:


> I think this is an example of how we've outsmarted our own biology. Our evolution hasn't really changed much, yet our intellect has so outpaced our biology that we're destroying ourselves. Sugar is a prime example. You mention that a true paleo diet doesn't include anything sweeter than a carrot (debatable, depending on the availability of sweeter fruits), yet our intellect has allowed the harvesting of enormous quantities of sugar via sugarcane, corn, beets and other sources year-round, which appeals to our lesser developed biology.
> 
> 
> 
> The diabetes epidemic, along with obesity, heart disease, and many other ailments I believe can be traced back to not just the agricultural revolution, but the capitalistic marketing revolution compounding upon it.




You absolutely correct. We like to say our cultural evolution has outpaced our biological evolution. 


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## tech-novelist

Betrayedone said:


> I really believe kids in this country should be compelled to serve in the military upon graduation from high school. It gives them a sense of direction and a reality check that freedom is not someone else's responsibility.


No, what the military draft teaches them is that they are slaves to the government, which of course is the exact diametrical opposite of freedom.


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## SimplyAmorous

Ikaika said:


> We put time limits on our boys video games. Needless to say my youngest is a full on T filled jock, football, basketball and weightlifting in the offseason. Sometimes too much.


 This was a post early on.. I have missed what the conversation has evolved into...

Well like I say.. I F***ked up here.. as a parent.. 

In my world.. so long as they got GOOD grades..I let them go....

2 of our sons are taking Engineering in College this year.. I feel like ..."WOW.. they are doing a sight better than me & husband did !! My husband wasn't any brain in school.. he hated it... I was a measly #54 in my class... These 2 were in the top 20.. How did that happen...and they didn't even study -that I ever seen.. We are proud....

And I loved loved , and still LOVE their guy friends.. one was the smartest kid in the class, Major Brain..... I joke with him when he's a CEO.. please hire our sons - his old buddies.... another is like a computer genius of sorts.. going to school for MAKING VIDEO GAMES....he's been working on one for over year now based on a friend of theirs..maybe our sons will be characters too... maybe he'll throw me in there as one of the Mom's... as he's practically lived at our house.. 

These guys are GOOD Guys.. even if a bit video game obsessed...this teen has made videos on you tube that's reached a million views or more. He's going to go places... even if he's a bit Nerdy.. introverted.. and not into sports.. Neither was the Brain I mentioned... 

We'll see how it goes.. Also all of our kids are involved in other activities -which is a *step up* from myself & husband.. we weren't in Anything (just each other)- duds that we were....

In some ways..I can't beat a dead horse.. 1st son , we tried to get him in baseball in elementary... being a boy & all.. here he was sitting down in the field.. all he wanted to do was BAT.... that was the end of that !! 

He ended up picking up the guitar..and running cross country ...he found his niche.... 3 of our sons joined Band...drummers.. we're the musical family I guess.. 

I don't know what the answer is... but to teach them.. work hard.. be responsible in everything you set your hands to...if you commit to a sport.. give it your ALL...to getting a Degree... don't quit, complete it...to a Job...be the best worker you can be..that has to account for something..


----------



## MrsAldi

@SimplyAmorous I find it hard to believe you were only #54 in your class! 
Your posts are always amazing! 
In my opinion you're #1 on emotional intelligence! 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## SimplyAmorous

MrsAldi said:


> @SimplyAmorous I find it hard to believe you were only #54 in your class!
> Your posts are always amazing!
> In my opinion you're #1 on emotional intelligence!


 Awe thank you . I sucked so bad in math.. honestly I never cared to go to college.. but I remember thinking..it wasn't even do-able , given I would have needed a tutor + just to get through Algebra! Gawd I hated math!!

English was my thing.. my husband sucked in English and excelled in math.. we're a good fit.. I like to refer to myself , and him...as "very commonsensicle"... I may be good at expressing a point of view, communication I dearly love (also writing, it's so obvious!)...but a "BRAIN".. not really. I have more of those "Soft skills" going for me.. but again...thank you @MrsAldi !


----------



## Ikaika

SimplyAmorous said:


> This was a post early on.. I have missed what the conversation has evolved into...
> 
> 
> 
> Well like I say.. I F***ked up here.. as a parent..
> 
> 
> 
> In my world.. so long as they got GOOD grades..I let them go....
> 
> 
> 
> 2 of our sons are taking Engineering in College this year.. I feel like ..."WOW.. they are doing a sight better than me & husband did !! My husband wasn't any brain in school.. he hated it... I was a measly #54 in my class... These 2 were in the top 20.. How did that happen...and they didn't even study -that I ever seen.. We are proud....
> 
> 
> 
> And I loved loved , and still LOVE their guy friends.. one was the smartest kid in the class, Major Brain..... I joke with him when he's a CEO.. please hire our sons - his old buddies.... another is like a computer genius of sorts.. going to school for MAKING VIDEO GAMES....he's been working on one for over year now based on a friend of theirs..maybe our sons will be characters too... maybe he'll throw me in there as one of the Mom's... as he's practically lived at our house..
> 
> 
> 
> These guys are GOOD Guys.. even if a bit video game obsessed...this teen has made videos on you tube that's reached a million views or more. He's going to go places... even if he's a bit Nerdy.. introverted.. and not into sports.. Neither was the Brain I mentioned...
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see how it goes.. Also all of our kids are involved in other activities -which is a *step up* from myself & husband.. we weren't in Anything (just each other)- duds that we were....
> 
> 
> 
> In some ways..I can't beat a dead horse.. 1st son , we tried to get him in baseball in elementary... being a boy & all.. here he was sitting down in the field.. all he wanted to do was BAT.... that was the end of that !!
> 
> 
> 
> He ended up picking up the guitar..and running cross country ...he found his niche.... 3 of our sons joined Band...drummers.. we're the musical family I guess..
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what the answer is... but to teach them.. work hard.. be responsible in everything you set your hands to...if you commit to a sport.. give it your ALL...to getting a Degree... don't quit, complete it...to a Job...be the best worker you can be..that has to account for something..




I apologize @SimplyAmorous if my original post sounded condescending, it was not meant to come across that way. And, I will admit I was less than articulate in describing our sons or our policies on video games and other electronic time. 

I should have also qualified that many of these policies have fallen by the wayside as our sons got older. It is even more complicated to keep this rule now that our youngest son was required to have a laptop for school. We live in a "connected" world but often disconnected society. It is not uncommon at times to see our entire family downstairs in the same room with glowing faces (reflections of screen) but not a word between us. So, yes we too have fell prey to this as much as we tried for years to put limitations.

And to what end - my oldest will have lifelong limitations and my youngest while he may be talented in sports will always struggle academically. I have told him (youngest), he can overcome some of his own limitations but he will have to work harder than his peers. The best I can do is encourage both of them and present the best example possible. 

The one saving grace we may have financially - my youngest may have just enough talent to get a partial football scholarship for college. We are talking 1AA or below. Most of these schools don't give full rides, but any partial ride will help. Even as a freshman, we have been communicating with potential schools (coaches, etc). Firstly based on the degree programs over their competitive sports program. One of these coaches from a 1AA school said to my son (phone conversation) - "We stress academics and building responsible men here. Yes, we like to win but making you into respectful and responsible man is our highest priority. Can you commit to that". My son response "yes coach". 

He says he wants to be a physical therapist. Next year (sophomore year) he will be doing a mentorship at a PT clinic. I told him this is a real tough program, so he needs to buckle down now and get serious about school, now. He is slowly gaining more maturity, thankfully. But, I can't necessarily attribute it to anything we have done. After a certain age, it's all them and I take no credit but all the blame. 

So, again @SimplyAmorous this was not meant to slight you at all, especially since your children sound like have had great upbringing. You and your husband did a very good job. Well done. 

Aloha 
Malama pono


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## SimplyAmorous

Hey that was a thoughtful post @Ikaika .. I didn't feel you were stepping on my toes.. *truth is.. I think parents who LIMIT their sons's video games ARE WISE.. and I really DID miss it in this area !! * 

Last year this time, 2nd son got his heart broken, his 1st love dumped him.. guess what she told another kid in Band.. she dumped him cause he played too many video games ! So you know what.. a guy is going to reap what he sowed... he DID blow off his girlfriend to hang with friends , spending too much time playing "League".. or whatever the crap it is.. I hate them all. 

I took her on a family vacation with us.. overnight a couple days.... I was furious with our sons -just observing ...as they grouped together to play this crap... I could see she was wanting *more time with him*...not looking too happy... I saw the train wreck coming even... in another area he was pretty clueless too....but ya know.. young men aren't the brightest... Still hate seeing the aftermath! 

But still *I needed to limit earlier on*..


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## Ikaika

SimplyAmorous said:


> Hey that was a thoughtful post @Ikaika .. I didn't feel you were stepping on my toes.. *truth is.. I think parents who LIMIT their sons's video games ARE WISE.. and I really DID miss it in this area !! *
> 
> Last year this time, 2nd son got his heart broken, his 1st love dumped him.. guess what she told another kid in Band.. she dumped him cause he played too many video games ! So you know what.. a guy is going to reap what he sowed... he DID blow off his girlfriend to hang with friends , spending too much time playing "League".. or whatever the crap it is.. I hate them all.
> 
> I took her on a family vacation with us.. overnight a couple days.... I was furious with our sons -just observing ...as they grouped together to play this crap... I could see she was wanting *more time with him*...not looking too happy... I saw the train wreck coming even... in another area he was pretty clueless too....but ya know.. *young men aren't the brightest*... Still hate seeing the aftermath!
> 
> But still *I needed to limit earlier on*..



True, but they learn. 




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## larry.gray

@SimplyAmorous I think your son learned a lesson in a way you would have never been able to teach him. He's hurt in the heart, but he will heal. In the meantime, he really learned a good lesson.

Are your boys going to be buckeyes? All of the engineers I work with are OSU graduates; it's just that one is a tOSU graduate and the rest are Oregon State. It is a huge but good school.


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## notmyrealname4

The people that make the wheels go around in no particular order:


farming (at all levels)

trash collection and disposal (I've lived in a country where the trash collectors go on strike; unbelievable how quickly you get rats)

water sanitation and sewage disposal ( a big part of of the reason why our lifespans have increased)

construction workers (it's nice to have houses to live in and roads to drive on)

energy production---from coal miners to nuclear engineers


All work is necessary; but some of it is a lot more necessary.

Computers won't "go away", but we got along okay without them; I don't think they should disappear. But I think it's wrong to rely on them too much.

There seems to be an attitude of disdain on this thread for people who do gritty, "dirty" work. At the same time, a "woe is us" attitude about men being "feminized" and losing their grip strength.

I've worked in manufacturing plants (mostly food). A lot of the pain to the body comes from the fact that there is very little effort put into aiding these folks to do the jobs.

A station where cardboard boxes are being thrown together (in seconds), is not physically high enough, so that most of us were hunched over; the pain to your back and neck comes from holding that posture for hours. But if those workplaces were ergonomically designed for the good of the human workers, I guarantee you the wear and tear on our bodies would be greatly reduced.

Since manufacturing workers are considered low, despised because they don't have a college education; ensuring their physical comfort and safety is not seen as necessary. There is a sky high turnover rate at such places.

The sign at the time clock that boasts "--- days since last workplace accident", is a good idea. But as someone up thread said about farmers missing knuckles, it's different once the line is moving and there is pressure to be as fast as possible. IOW, a lot of the safety doctrine is just words. The real truth is you are supposed to go as fast as possible, and if that means sticking your finger in real fast to grab at something before turning something off.......

If we valued manufacturing, and sought it's healthy return to our country; that might change. Health, safety, comfortable working conditions---even for the grunts on the bottom. What a concept.

Of course, we don't have much of a manufacturing base left....that's another issue of course.


What's wrong with a man "bun"? A guy with long hair, pulls it off his face, twists it and secures it on top of his head. Whoopdeefvckingdo.


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## 2ntnuf

I really liked that post @notmyrealname4. 

I just don't like the man bun part. I know it can be a safety issue around machines. It would hurt like hell to have it caught in something spinning and have your scalp pulled off with your hair. 

Some may think that is exaggerating. It isn't. 

I've seen many folks put there hand into a running machine to grab something. Most grabbed in a way that they were okay. Some...well, some I don't want to think about. 

Most times it is an emphasis on speed. We didn't meet our goals, etc. A few remarks about how easy something is, or some other general comments that test the moral fiber and you find folks doing things they shouldn't be doing. 

You met your goals, though. Atta boy! Raise? Well, you called off. You did this or that. Your being paid comparably to the rest of the market. We can't justify it.


----------



## Betrayedone

tech-novelist said:


> No, what the military draft teaches them is that they are slaves to the government, which of course is the exact diametrical opposite of freedom.


Oh brother.......I don't even know how to respond to that leftist viewpoint. This thread is about why we're not raising men anymore and I believe the military can give guidance and structure to young men that might otherwise take a bad path in life. Your statement seems as though you have some kind of ax to grind and is not about what is going to make strong men. Let someone else do the dirty work of preserving liberty is what I'm feeling here, also. This does NOT mean that I endorse our participation in any of the conflicts we are currently embroiled in but I don't want to get too far off message here.


----------



## becareful2

Jessie Graf, the stuntwoman from the tv show Supergirl, just successfully aced the obstacle course on American Ninja Warrior. There are articles all over the net about how great she is. Ugh, did they do the same for the countless male contestants who killed it on American Ninja Warrior? I would say no. When women succeed, it's high praise about women empowerment but when men succeed at the same thing, it's crickets.


----------



## notmyrealname4

becareful2 said:


> Jessie Graf, the stuntwoman from the tv show Supergirl, just successfully aced the obstacle course on American Ninja Warrior. There are articles all over the net about how great she is. Ugh, did they do the same for the countless male contestants who killed it on American Ninja Warrior? I would say no. When women succeed, it's high praise about women empowerment but when men succeed at the same thing, it's crickets.




It's because it's taken for granted that men will be much physically stronger; most of the time, overall.

For a woman to reach that level is the acme of achievement; to be as good as a man. Believe it or not, that is what many women have been conditioned to aim for. 

This is proven by the fact that when men do so-called "feminine" things; they are ridiculed. Case in point, look at the opinions about "man buns" on this thread. It's seen as degrading, laughable, to do anything that might be seen as feminine.

To excel at something masculine, is the utmost form of excellence. So, that's why the female Ninja champion is getting so much praise.


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> It's because it's taken for granted that men will be much physically stronger; most of the time, overall.
> 
> For a woman to reach that level is the acme of achievement; to be as good as a man. Believe it or not, *that is what many women have been conditioned to aim for. *
> 
> This is proven by the fact that when men do so-called "feminine" things; they are ridiculed. Case in point, look at the opinions about "man buns" on this thread. It's seen as degrading, laughable, to do anything that might be seen as feminine.
> 
> *To excel at something masculine, is the utmost form of excellence. *So, that's why the female Ninja champion is getting so much praise.


That reminds me of something @intheory once said: "We are all expected to be the best _man_ we can be."

Another problem is when "equality" is based on a male standard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> That reminds me of something @intheory once said: "We are all expected to be the best _man_ we can be."
> 
> Another problem is when "equality" is based on a male standard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I couldn't agree more.

What is your opinion jld? How do women regain innate worth just for _being women_?

When I was watching the Olympics; I watched female *rhythmic* gymnastics and team synchronized swimming. Those are two sports that are exclusively feminine at the Olympics.

The commentator said that a men's synchronized swimming event might be coming in the next Olympics.

And I thought that would be very interesting; and I could also already hear the jeers and ridicule that those men might face. (There's a classic SNL skit with Martin Short that makes fun of it)

Men could probably do a lot more challenging acrobatic skills because of their muscular strength. Men have always been fantastic acrobats.

But there would be that dreadful "taint" of competing in a "woman's" sport.


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> I couldn't agree more.
> 
> What is your opinion jld? How do women regain innate worth just for _being women_?
> 
> When I was watching the Olympics; I watched female *rhythmic* gymnastics and team synchronized swimming. Those are two sports that are exclusively feminine at the Olympics.
> 
> The commentator said that a men's synchronized swimming event might be coming in the next Olympics.
> 
> And I thought that would be very interesting; and I could also already hear the jeers and ridicule that those men might face. (There's a classic SNL skit with Martin Short that makes fun of it)
> 
> Men could probably do a lot more challenging acrobatic skills because of their muscular strength. Men have always been fantastic acrobats.
> 
> But there would be that dreadful "taint" of competing in a "woman's" sport.


I think we just have to believe in ourselves, without getting defensive.

And I think men just have to believe in themselves, without getting defensive.

We all want support. But sometimes we have to give it to ourselves until everybody else catches up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> I think we just have to believe in ourselves, without getting defensive.
> 
> And I think men just have to believe in themselves, without getting defensive.
> 
> We all want support. But sometimes we have to give it to ourselves until everybody else catches up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Can I admit that I can't lift heavy objects as easily as a man.....'cause if I do admit it (and I do)....what does that mean?

I should still be able to vote, right? I think so. I'm an adult member of the human race; even if I can't easily lift 50#.

I don't want to be a crane operator, or a soldier, or a miner, or a deep sea fisherman, or President of Anything.

Is it okay if I don't.....am I "less than" women who want to do those things and succeed at them?

Are men who are cooks, and ballet dancers, and kindergarten teachers, and nurses; "lesser" men? I don't think so. I've never viewed them as unmasculine.

Back to the OP. If men are losing grip strength; I would imagine that women are too. Does that matter as much? Is it okay if women are physically weaker and less fit than before?


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> Can I admit that I can't lift heavy objects as easily as a man.....'cause if I do admit it (and I do)....what does that mean?
> 
> I should still be able to vote, right? I think so. I'm an adult member of the human race; even if I can't easily lift 50#.
> 
> I don't want to be a crane operator, or a soldier, or a miner, or a deep sea fisherman, or President of Anything.
> 
> Is it okay if I don't.....am I "less than" women who want to do those things and succeed at them?
> 
> Are men who are cooks, and ballet dancers, and kindergarten teachers, and nurses; "lesser" men? I don't think so. I've never viewed them as unmasculine.
> 
> Back to the OP. If men are losing grip strength; I would imagine that women are too. Does that matter as much? Is it okay if women are physically weaker and less fit than before?


Most of us are not as physically strong as we would have been a hundred years ago in a society that required a lot of physical labor.

What makes me sad is that many of us are not as emotionally strong as we now have the resources to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## becareful2

notmyrealname4 said:


> It's because it's taken for granted that men will be much physically stronger; most of the time, overall.
> 
> For a woman to reach that level is the acme of achievement; to be as good as a man. Believe it or not, that is what many women have been conditioned to aim for.
> 
> This is proven by the fact that when men do so-called "feminine" things; they are ridiculed. Case in point, look at the opinions about "man buns" on this thread. It's seen as degrading, laughable, to do anything that might be seen as feminine.
> 
> To excel at something masculine, is the utmost form of excellence. So, that's why the female Ninja champion is getting so much praise.


I don't know if you ladies have seen the new online catch phrase going around called "Fight Like A Girl." That would contradict women trying to be something masculine. :wink2:


----------



## Ikaika

jld said:


> Most of us are not as physically strong as we would have been a hundred years ago in a society that required a lot of physical labor.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes me sad is that many of us are not as emotionally strong as we now have the resources to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




If it is physical strength that one wants to consider, gender can make a difference but the adage of "choose the right parents and don't get old" would be a huge consideration. 

Emotional and maturity "strength" can be genetically determined but is also factored in by environment cues, regardless of gender. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 2ntnuf

I wasn't laughing at you @notmyrealname4. 

I'm sorry you thought I was picking on you. I thought your post was great. I don't know what else to say. I'm sure a man bun is fine. So what? Your hair has to stay out of the way. 

Were you going for fashion or for safety? It is what it is.


----------



## NotEasy

notmyrealname4 said:


> The people that make the wheels go around in no particular order:
> 
> 
> farming (at all levels)
> 
> trash collection and disposal (I've lived in a country where the trash collectors go on strike; unbelievable how quickly you get rats)
> 
> water sanitation and sewage disposal ( a big part of of the reason why our lifespans have increased)
> 
> construction workers (it's nice to have houses to live in and roads to drive on)
> 
> energy production---from coal miners to nuclear engineers
> 
> 
> All work is necessary; but some of it is a lot more necessary.
> 
> Computers won't "go away", but we got along okay without them; I don't think they should disappear. But I think it's wrong to rely on them too much.
> 
> There seems to be an attitude of disdain on this thread for people who do gritty, "dirty" work. At the same time, a "woe is us" attitude about men being "feminized" and losing their grip strength.
> 
> I've worked in manufacturing plants (mostly food). A lot of the pain to the body comes from the fact that there is very little effort put into aiding these folks to do the jobs.
> 
> A station where cardboard boxes are being thrown together (in seconds), is not physically high enough, so that most of us were hunched over; the pain to your back and neck comes from holding that posture for hours. But if those workplaces were ergonomically designed for the good of the human workers, I guarantee you the wear and tear on our bodies would be greatly reduced.
> 
> Since manufacturing workers are considered low, despised because they don't have a college education; ensuring their physical comfort and safety is not seen as necessary. There is a sky high turnover rate at such places.
> 
> The sign at the time clock that boasts "--- days since last workplace accident", is a good idea. But as someone up thread said about farmers missing knuckles, it's different once the line is moving and there is pressure to be as fast as possible. IOW, a lot of the safety doctrine is just words. The real truth is you are supposed to go as fast as possible, and if that means sticking your finger in real fast to grab at something before turning something off.......
> 
> If we valued manufacturing, and sought it's healthy return to our country; that might change. Health, safety, comfortable working conditions---even for the grunts on the bottom. What a concept.
> 
> Of course, we don't have much of a manufacturing base left....that's another issue of course.
> 
> 
> What's wrong with a man "bun"? A guy with long hair, pulls it off his face, twists it and secures it on top of his head. Whoopdeefvckingdo.


I so want to give this 1000 likes. You have read my mind, right up to the man bun point. Sorry it is a deep prejudice on my part.

I posted about farmers loosing knuckles. I still remember going to shake hands with a hard man who was polite enough to come and introduce himself to a lowly teenage shovel pusher. He showed good manners. Then I nearly panicked realising he was missing part of his hand, and how could I shake his hand, and did it show on my face. To me his gesture of coming to shake my hand even when he had a damaged hand meant so much. It also left me determined to do everything I could to keep all digits attached.
Luckily I became an office worker, but even there I still found issues. My job included managing a mechanical printer, which came with a warning to take off your tie before opening the cover. If your tie caught it could choke you or break your neck. But no-one in the office warned me or even showed me the manual.
I wish industrial accidents were investigated as thoroughly as road accidents. And places with too many accidents should see the managers charged.

One of my office tasks was to assess the ergonomics of new computer workstations. When I told my mother about this she needed me to describe ergonomics. She had worked for years in a food factory but the ergonomics there had never been assessed.


----------



## notmyrealname4

2ntnuf said:


> I wasn't laughing at you @notmyrealname4.
> 
> I'm sorry you thought I was picking on you. I thought your post was great. I don't know what else to say. I'm sure a man bun is fine. So what? Your hair has to stay out of the way.
> 
> Were you going for fashion or for safety? It is what it is.




I didn't think you were laughing at me. You are entitled to think whatever you want about man buns; especially if you think they might be a hazard for certain jobs.

I'm a female, lol, so I don't have a man bun. But I think long hair on guys is great, and that man buns are great for a man that wants to keep his hair long, but just pull it out of the way sometimes.


----------



## notmyrealname4

becareful2 said:


> I don't know if you ladies have seen the new online catch phrase going around called "Fight Like A Girl." That would contradict women trying to be something masculine. :wink2:


You'd think so, becareful; but I don't think "Fight Like A Girl" is a tribute to femininity.

It's a tribute to women who are now fighting (in MMA, as an example), just like _only men used to be able to do._

"You've come a long way baby, you can now fight like a man. But, of course you're not a man, so we'll say "Fight Like A Girl""

It's also a play on words on the old slurs against femininity: ie, "throws like a girl", "runs like a girl". Those were jokes about the perceived pathetic quality about athletic women.

It's been reinvented to be a catchy, positive anthem for women who can now beat each other up in the ring


----------



## NotEasy

NotEasy said:


> I so want to give this 1000 likes. You have read my mind, right up to the man bun point. Sorry it is a deep prejudice on my part.
> 
> ...
> Luckily I became an office worker, but even there I still found issues. My job included managing a mechanical printer, which came with a warning to take off your tie before opening the cover. If your tie caught it could choke you or break your neck. But no-one in the office warned me or even showed me the manual.
> ...


Ahh, just realised, I bet the manual said to tie up long hair too. So it approved on man buns. I need to re-assess.


----------



## NotEasy

becareful2 said:


> I don't know if you ladies have seen the new online catch phrase going around called "Fight Like A Girl." That would contradict women trying to be something masculine. :wink2:


I never understood the "fight like a girl" phrase. 
I saw girls fight at school, they fight dirty, they scratch, they choke, they go for the face or below the belt.
As a martial artist, my fiercest student opponent was a girl. She wanted to make me bleed and put me in hospital. Given a split second mistake on my part she would have.
I trained males and females in self defense. We didn't train them for MMA, just simple self defense. The females had slightly lower average physical ability. Part of that was from a general reluctance to fight, once that was overcome the difference was far less. And the males often also were reluctant and weak, just like the thread title. 
I grew up with the phrase "you hit like a girl". Many of our students male and female did not even know how to punch. We had to train them to punch without hurting themselves and so their punch would have an impact. Just knowing they didn't have to cower in fear made many of them far more comfortable.
Overall it suggested people are getting weaker, not just men.


----------



## Sbrown

NotEasy said:


> I so want to give this 1000 likes. You have read my mind, right up to the man bun point. Sorry it is a deep prejudice on my part.
> 
> I posted about farmers loosing knuckles. I still remember going to shake hands with a hard man who was polite enough to come and introduce himself to a lowly teenage shovel pusher. He showed good manners. Then I nearly panicked realising he was missing part of his hand, and how could I shake his hand, and did it show on my face. To me his gesture of coming to shake my hand even when he had a damaged hand meant so much. It also left me determined to do everything I could to keep all digits attached.
> Luckily I became an office worker, but even there I still found issues. My job included managing a mechanical printer, which came with a warning to take off your tie before opening the cover. If your tie caught it could choke you or break your neck. But no-one in the office warned me or even showed me the manual.
> I wish industrial accidents were investigated as thoroughly as road accidents. And places with too many accidents should see the managers charged.
> 
> One of my office tasks was to assess the ergonomics of new computer workstations. When I told my mother about this she needed me to describe ergonomics. She had worked for years in a food factory but the ergonomics there had never been assessed.


Not sure where you work but every manufacturing facility I've been in in the last decade has spent truck loads of money on ergonomics. And road accident investigations don't hold a candle to the accident investigations performed. It's to the point that most go unreported because the interviews and paperwork involved is painful in its self. And yes managers have been charged for accidents. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## DustyDog

Sbrown said:


> Not sure where you work but every manufacturing facility I've been in in the last decade has spent truck loads of money on ergonomics. And road accident investigations don't hold a candle to the accident investigations performed. It's to the point that most go unreported because the interviews and paperwork involved is painful in its self. And yes managers have been charged for accidents.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Ergonomics is a paste-over. Your workstation gets assessed as if you are "everybody". Tools, workstation height, etc, are set as if you are "normal". For me, it caused an RMI...because I am long-torsoed compared to average. It turns out the correct height for a computer keyboard is in my lap, which does not fit the "ergonomic" equation. the introduction of "ergonomics" has reduced lawsuits, but not injuries.


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## Sbrown

DustyDog said:


> Ergonomics is a paste-over. Your workstation gets assessed as if you are "everybody". Tools, workstation height, etc, are set as if you are "normal". For me, it caused an RMI...because I am long-torsoed compared to average. It turns out the correct height for a computer keyboard is in my lap, which does not fit the "ergonomic" equation. the introduction of "ergonomics" has reduced lawsuits, but not injuries.


That is not my experience. Every desk in the office is adjustable from sit to stand. Every table/work station is either on electric screw jacks or air bags as to allow the individual employee to adjust it to fit them. Ergonomics is taken very seriously here. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## larry.gray

Sbrown said:


> Not sure where you work but every manufacturing facility I've been in in the last decade has spent truck loads of money on ergonomics. And road accident investigations don't hold a candle to the accident investigations performed. It's to the point that most go unreported because the interviews and paperwork involved is painful in its self. And yes managers have been charged for accidents.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


OSHA is pushing hard now to bring criminal charges in death cases in industrial accidents. If management knowingly allows LOTO rules to be broken and someone dies, they're going to jail.

I deal with arc flash worries all the time. (Electrical shorts that burn people. They kill 4000 and maim 4000 a year.) Here we are very cautious. Yet I go to Europe, South America or Asia and it's like going back to 1985. People.think nothing of opening live boxes. "Don't touch the busbars and you're OK." Until someone drops a bolt...


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## NotEasy

Sbrown said:


> Not sure where you work but every manufacturing facility I've been in in the last decade has spent truck loads of money on ergonomics. And road accident investigations don't hold a candle to the accident investigations performed. It's to the point that most go unreported because the interviews and paperwork involved is painful in its self. And yes managers have been charged for accidents.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Mine was an Australian factory in 1980s, my mums factory work was even earlier. She said most workers only lasted a few shifts before the aches got too bad. 
Good to hear that things are different these days.


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## NotEasy

DustyDog said:


> Ergonomics is a paste-over. Your workstation gets assessed as if you are "everybody". Tools, workstation height, etc, are set as if you are "normal". For me, it caused an RMI...because I am long-torsoed compared to average. It turns out the correct height for a computer keyboard is in my lap, which does not fit the "ergonomic" equation. the introduction of "ergonomics" has reduced lawsuits, but not injuries.


My ergonomics work was to test each workstation for that person and teach them what they should do, how to sit etc. There is no one size fits all, even with adjustable workstations. I had to order a special desk for a 7 foot tall basketball player.
This was when PCs were just coming in. RSI was breaking out everywhere. I was very proud that no-one I supported got RSI.


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## Spotthedeaddog

NotEasy said:


> I never understood the "fight like a girl" phrase.
> I saw girls fight at school, they fight dirty, they scratch, they choke, they go for the face or below the belt.
> As a martial artist, my fiercest student opponent was a girl. She wanted to make me bleed and put me in hospital. Given a split second mistake on my part she would have.
> I trained males and females in self defense. We didn't train them for MMA, just simple self defense. The females had slightly lower average physical ability. Part of that was from a general reluctance to fight, once that was overcome the difference was far less. And the males often also were reluctant and weak, just like the thread title.
> I grew up with the phrase "you hit like a girl". Many of our students male and female did not even know how to punch. We had to train them to punch without hurting themselves and so their punch would have an impact. Just knowing they didn't have to cower in fear made many of them far more comfortable.
> Overall it suggested people are getting weaker, not just men.


fight/hit like a girl comes from a time when non-lower class girls didn't do physical activities, and lower class women had physical work but was bad for health (they might get strong wrists and arms from washing clothes or weaving or hauling water/food, but they were seldom expect to punch (let alone kick) anyone. so all the balance and mechanics are wrong - and also something seems to change with the breast/hip development which gives a different range of motion.
Throwing a punch is very similar range of motion to throwing a stone and some very physical and well coordinated women have considerable difficulty getting the motion correct - even if they could throw as girls.

That same lack of real physical work (carrying, digging, sawing, chopping, hammering, mixing, throwing) is also why many modern men actually do throw with extreme lack of coordination, and thus also punch very badly. Spend a year digging ditches and you'll be suprised just how well your body economy improves, and with it punching and throwing.

With women, most of them don't have the same social barrier and honor principles that a man is brought up with (historically, and is fading). As a male you learn the price of not following the fighting rules, and the vocal interaction beforehand...you basically get the s... beaten out of you by bigger and nastier people. Most women do not get the physical abuse from their peers in the same manner. There is also a degree of entitlement, as a man you are expected to interact and bargin with others in your team - a man has a position in the group that is validated by the performance of the group, to step out and take self or entitlement is either challenging the leader or being false (a loud mouth). The latter is happening more in modern world, and it leads to men who value petty things and their own advantage over that of their group, and if a man is trouble to the group they will abandon him or physically beat him into submission. So a boy learns these codes - a girl does not, and so those who reject their own position and take up their own choice, have already shown that they feel entitled to do what they want, ignoring what others may think - thus they don't pull punches, don't hesitate to hurt others in training or competition (where they feel safe), and they also don't hold any reserve energy or power because they feel entitled (or even encouraged) to beat on others. A man in a similar circumstance is considered unstable (and often ends up arrested or finds himself taking the consequences of throwing his weight around).


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## Spotthedeaddog

Sbrown said:


> That is not my experience. Every desk in the office is adjustable from sit to stand. Every table/work station is either on electric screw jacks or air bags as to allow the individual employee to adjust it to fit them. Ergonomics is taken very seriously here.


Only government and multinationals have that kind of cash to throw around here. The resulting changes have reduced the injury rate....since many operators have simply gone out of business and many of the smaller jobs are no longer affordable by common folk. It's really hitting the economy hard, but it doesn't show up in GDP because inspectors get big cash and spend well.


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## Spotthedeaddog

Ikaika said:


> Read the book - a true paleo diet is one consisting of berries, dug up roots, apple like fruits with all the sweetness of a carrot, lot of insects (large portions of maggots) and occasional fermented meats (as in our ancestors were more successful as scavengers than hunters). After all we are still hunter/gatherers. Our anatomy and physiology has changed very little from the small tribal bands that migrated out of Eastern Africa.
> 
> So my take on it, is that it is impossible to completely replicate the paleo diet. Does this imply defeat? No, after all there is no situation as the fittest. Biologist correctly suggest "survival of the fitter". However we are not well fit to consume as many calories as we do now. We are:
> Too satiated
> Too sedentary
> Too sanitary
> 
> And hence the many mismatched diseases that plague modern **** sapiens.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You missed "Too overworked" by a system designed to keep most of the population chained to the plow and desperate for scraps. The better to extract labor-hours from the serfs that way. 
So what if they die early, or even suffer crippling problems of any sort - there's plenty more where they came from, and it gives the doctors something to do.
Comparisons over the last 100 years show that lifestyles and discretionary buying power have been constantly dropping since the 1900's, with huge numbers of people little better of wealth/choice-wise than their recent ancestors - sure the cage is better gilded, and we have smartphones where we never needed them before; and people play pokemons rather than sing.


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## DustyDog

spotthedeaddog said:


> You missed "Too overworked" by a system designed to keep most of the population chained to the plow and desperate for scraps. The better to extract labor-hours from the serfs that way.
> So what if they die early, or even suffer crippling problems of any sort - there's plenty more where they came from, and it gives the doctors something to do.
> Comparisons over the last 100 years show that lifestyles and discretionary buying power have been constantly dropping since the 1900's, with huge numbers of people little better of wealth/choice-wise than their recent ancestors - sure the cage is better gilded, and we have smartphones where we never needed them before; and people play pokemons rather than sing.


And "too tightly packed together".

The most awful virulent disease causes very little harm in sparsely-populated areas.

Circa 2009, the World Health Organization noted that over 50% of the world's population now lived in areas of "city density", which is defined as so many people per square acre...I don't recall the figure. And, by their reckoning, this was the single largest threat to human health.


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## DustyDog

Sbrown said:


> That is not my experience. Every desk in the office is adjustable from sit to stand. Every table/work station is either on electric screw jacks or air bags as to allow the individual employee to adjust it to fit them. Ergonomics is taken very seriously here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


As was true in my last several jobs. However, distance from monitor to keyboard was not particularly adjustable...if I could not get a correct fit with the adjustments given, then the manager would have to sacrifice budget to make things work...and I worked for a company that would rather let an employee go than to sacrifice 1/10 cent per share of profit for the stockholder.

At home, I created my own standing desk. I acquired a standard office desk, approx 30" work surface height, 5 feet long. I built a shelf with legs which added 12" to that, giving a final work surface height of 42". The work surface height is not very important, since I do little work on the surface...its primary purpose is to hold papers I may be reading from as I enter data.

I then built a suspended keyboard tray, dropping the 'board about 8 inches. This allows me to type with my forearms slanted downward, rather than the incorrect 90 degrees usually recommended. With the opened elbows, blood flow through the vessels is improved, and those of us who are older and have, in particular, compromised tendons in the elbows can work longer without ye olde golfer's elbow flaring up. Due to having a pianist's arched fingers, I am able to type with a straight wrist, even while not having the forearm horizontal. During recovery from my elbow injury, I spend a great deal of time learning to sense what's being pinched and not in the arms, and what I "needed" always violated our ergo team's instructions.

With the 'board so low (and mouse with it), the monitors, relatively speaking are "very high". To get them to the correct height for my eyes while standing, I use a combination of Ergotron-brand monitor lifts and some added structural aluminum square extrusions to lift further.

I was a teenager when I got my first job with a workbench, and it was a standing-height bench. Every electronics manufacturing facility I worked in over the past 40 years also had the workers standing at the workspaces, never sitting. I could not imagine sitting.

The last job I had? The company had decided to improve "teamwork" by reducing the height of the cubicle walls...when I raised the height-adjustable desk to standing position, I was the most visible gopher on a floor of 800 people. Not bad for a short guy.


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## aine

Without reading all the posts, I tend to agree and disagree.
Men are to a great extent belittled in the media, movies, romance novels, etc. The stupid dufus, the bumbling hero, the wimp, etc.
Further, many boys are brought up by women primarily with little input from their fathers or have absentee fathers, boys learn from their Dads.


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## notmyrealname4

spotthedeaddog said:


> With women, most of them don't have the same social barrier and honor principles that a man is brought up with (historically, and is fading). As a male you learn the price of not following the fighting rules, and the vocal interaction beforehand...you basically get the s... beaten out of you by bigger and nastier people. * Most women do not get the physical abuse from their peers in the same manner. * There is also a degree of entitlement, as a man you are expected to interact and bargin with others in your team - a man has a position in the group that is validated by the performance of the group, to step out and take self or entitlement is either challenging the leader or being false (a loud mouth). The latter is happening more in modern world, and it leads to men who value petty things and their own advantage over that of their group, and if a man is trouble to the group they will abandon him or physically beat him into submission. So a boy learns these codes -* a girl does not, *and so those who reject their own position and take up their own choice, have already shown that they feel entitled to do what they want, ignoring what others may think - thus they don't pull punches, don't hesitate to hurt others in training or competition (where they feel safe), and they also don't hold any reserve energy or power because they feel entitled (or even encouraged) to beat on others. A man in a similar circumstance is considered unstable (and often ends up arrested or finds himself taking the consequences of throwing his weight around).




A girl doesn't have to learn codes **usually**, because most women have the "herd" mentality; co-operate, get along with the group, don't make waves.

Yes, there are always some outliers. But it's only recently that women have been encouraged to be bad a.s.s. b1tches.


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## 2ntnuf

notmyrealname4 said:


> A girl doesn't have to learn codes **usually**, because most women have the "herd" mentality; co-operate, get along with the group, don't make waves.
> 
> Yes, there are always some outliers. But it's only recently that women have been encouraged to be bad a.s.s. b1tches.


Do you think this "herd mentality" is learned?


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## notmyrealname4

2ntnuf said:


> Do you think this "herd mentality" is learned?


No, I don't. I think it comes very naturally.


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## EleGirl

DustyDog said:


> Ergonomics is a paste-over. Your workstation gets assessed as if you are "everybody". Tools, workstation height, etc, are set as if you are "normal". For me, it caused an RMI...because I am long-torsoed compared to average. It turns out the correct height for a computer keyboard is in my lap, which does not fit the "ergonomic" equation. the introduction of "ergonomics" has reduced lawsuits, but not injuries.


Where I work, the measure, the team that puts offices/cubes together measures each person. We each have a desk, keyboard tray, etc that is set to the height that fits our frame. Our chairs are also selected to fit our height and frame. We have about 3,000 at the site where I work. Everyone's been set up this way.


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## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> Do you think this "herd mentality" is learned?


I think that it is largely learned.

Many cultures have two societal groups.. male and female. Men are taught one set of behaviors. Women are taught another. 

When you look at a culture, the behavior of women in that culture will seem natural. But when comparing that culture to, say western culture, the females in each act very differently.

The same goes for males in different cultures.

The biggest indicator that it's learn, in that within one generation in the USA, the behaviors of female children completely change if they go to public schools and are allowed to interact with American kids their own age.


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## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> Where I work, the measure, the team that puts offices/cubes together measures each person. We each have a desk, keyboard tray, etc that is set to the height that fits our frame. Our chairs are also selected to fit our height and frame. We have about 3,000 at the site where I work. Everyone's been set up this way.


You're all spoiled. 

In my circumstances, some areas the stools have no backs. In others, they do. 

Many times we are not allowed to sit. Sometimes it's more productive to stand. 

At least they adjust. 

Our job security is based upon our productivity. We are given figures that represent that. Figures can be manipulated. Who knows?


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## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> I think that it is largely learned.
> 
> Many cultures have two societal groups.. male and female. Men are taught one set of behaviors. Women are taught another.
> 
> When you look at a culture, the behavior of women in that culture will seem natural. But when comparing that culture to, say western culture, the females in each act very differently.
> 
> The same goes for males in different cultures.
> 
> The biggest indicator that it's learn, in that within one generation in the USA, *the behaviors of female children completely change* if they go to public schools and are allowed to interact with American kids their own age.


How so? 

They become more competitive and solitary? They become more aggressive and single minded? They no longer get together and support each others emotional needs? 

I'm not sure I even understand the male side of this, to tell the truth. I never considered very deeply why we seemed different. I just thought it was a fact the men and women are different, due to things beyond our control.


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