# The Current State of CWI



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

:sleeping:


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

The way I see it, when you find out your spouse has been cheating on you, you should treat it like a revelation that they have really been a fembot all along.

The only things that makes the break-up hard is that the thing is busy telling you "no, I'm not a fembot" and you are in the habit of being around it and being nice to it.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> :sleeping:


Wouldnt it be nice in ideal world if this was actually the least used part of TAM


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yes.

But no one sticks around anymore. They solve their issues or quit and leave. Sometimes they leave us hanging.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Yes.
> 
> But no one sticks around anymore. They solve their issues or quit and leave. Sometimes they leave us hanging.


It all goes in cycles.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Yes.
> 
> But no one sticks around anymore. They solve their issues or quit and leave. Sometimes they leave us hanging.


Most will be back with round 2.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

honcho said:


> Wouldnt it be nice in ideal world if this was actually the least used part of TAM


:allhail:
Thank you!!!


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## Rubicon (Jan 13, 2014)

> But no one sticks around anymore. They solve their issues or quit and leave. Sometimes they leave us hanging.


WARNING: This post is a rant. Avoid if you are easily offended.

I think the amount of thread hijacking that takes place here contributes to that. Someone comes in, makes a post describing a situation, when they come back 24 hours later there are two or three pages of back and forth by the clique here discussing and speculating endlessly among themselves so new posters feel like strangers in their own threads. The imagination of some here is staggering, calling the assumptions that are made here a stretch is being kind.

I don't think the intended purpose of this area was for gossip mongers to get their fill but at times it seems that is exactly what it has become.

If you find yourself responding in a thread three, four or more times between each of the OP's posts you are guilty of driving them away. This happens so often it is the norm not the exception. Not everyone is sitting home waiting on updates full of juicy details like some here seem to be. There are regulars who seem to need to have a say in every thread, replying multiple times to each post back and forth among themselves without concern for the OP. This needs to stop if you want to grow the regular user base.

It has started to be common recently to speculate that posters are trolls because the updates are not coming fast enough for the regulars or if someone asks a question and doesn't get direct answer from the OP.... TROLL. Remember, nobody is obligated to open up every detail of their lives just because you think knowing the juicy details is a requirement to giving some general advise.

If your post is not directly intended to the OP then it really isn't helping them. Create a dedicated thread for debating the theoretical finer points of infidelity amongst yourselves. If you find yourself debating how long a piece of rope is within someone's plea for help you are diluting the help they are looking to get.

So my advice to improve the situation are:

1) Keep the side discussions within new OP's threads to a minimum and if you must, create a dedicated thread if you feel you have to have a debate

2) Dial back the aggressive demands for detailed info (respect that the OP feels awkward enough already, give them some space so to speak)

3) Don't feel the world will end if you don't participate is every thread. If all you are doing is rewording the same advice the last ten posters just gave, it's most likely not required. 

If you don't agree, I'm fine with that. I understand it's my opinion only.

Have a great day everyone.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

I agree Rubicon. I almost left early on in my thread due to some over zealous posters.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Agree with Rubicon,but also others take a thread as an advantage to attack some Posters, not disagreeing with what they have posted but attacking their background and stating sometimes that they are unqualified to give an opinion. Not discussing the issue but instead making it personal

A 'Red Herring" Attack


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I agree, I am guilty of this at times. I am also laughing........


Naw, I'll leave it at I agree.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I agree, I am guilty of this at times. I am also laughing........
> 
> 
> Naw, I'll leave it at I agree.


I'm guilty of this at times as well, but I try and limit it to people that state opinions as facts or definitives, or proven methods as immoral or whatever. You get the picture.

But I state my piece, and bow out quickly as I don't want to be labeled a threadjacker anymore than I feel necessary.

But I will continue to call out blatantly harmful advice and opinions in the future. To not do so would be irresponsible to the posters that are seeking helpful advice derived from personal experiences and proven methodologies.

[/tj]


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Is bandit banned??


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

workindad said:


> Is bandit banned??


LOL, it wouldn't surprise me a bit (again), but if you'll notice it's his avatar and not his status here.

Probably clairvoyance on his part.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

workindad said:


> Is bandit banned??



No, that's just his avatar.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

3putt, EI understood, thanks.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

I found the initial responses overwhelming. They weren't wrong, I just wasn't ready to hear it. I stuck around because of a few posters that gave advice to me at the level I was ready for. I'll stick around to return the favor for a few others if I'm able. I find sometimes I get too wrapped up in my own pain to give balanced advice.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

I got a wide range of advice initially. From he was just flirting with your wife to your wife has been f--king him for years. There was one poster that to this day I still can't stand. Most of the advice was helpful, but to be honest it initially left me more numb where i disappeared for a few weeks. I settled in to nothing had happened yet, but I need to make damn sure nothing happens going forward, and I got some great advice at that point. 

Occasionally I go back and read my thread, and now that I know a lot of the personalities, I get much more where people are coming from.

I try not to comment on every thread but sometimes I'm bored at work. Like now...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rubicon (Jan 13, 2014)

I'm impressed with the quality of the responses in this thread. Nary a pitchfork to be seen, honestly I didn't expect that.

This is a discussion forum so I would be in the wrong to discourage members from posting. I'm not saying at all that people shouldn't form a community here.

To be clear I direct my comments to the threads started by new members who find themselves looking for advice through no fault of their own. Starting a thread to discuss any aspect of infidelity from an on-topic perspective with members freely participating in that should be encouraged, we just need to keep the debates out of the advice threads and also show some empathy for new members by not aggressively berating them at an overwhelming rate.

My criticism is directed at the problem of overwhelming the new members as some of you have admitted happened to you when you were new. I'm a big believer in attacking the problem, not the people/person so I'm not directing my comments at anyone in particular, we all contribute to the problems to varying degrees just like we can all participate in the solution.

A thread like this is a healthy way of addressing the issue. After all, we generally discourage rug sweeping so it's nice to see we put it into practice ourselves in areas other than the specific case of infidelity. By openly discussing the issues we can work towards an intellectually honest resolution to any problems we encounter.


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## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

Thanks Rubicon. I agree.

I try to wait until the OP is in a spot where I have something significant to say. I want to be sympathetic and have impact on that person.

A bit of inter-group chit-chat is fine on a thread, especially if it lifts the spirits of the OP. But ONLY if the OP feels included in the chit-chat. If we are talking about in-jokes, and not the OPs horrible problem, then it's like water-cooler talk and it might put them off.

They are here because they are miserable and in crisis. I like almost everybody here, and love chatting with you and reading your responses, but primarily I came here to help people. If we drive off the OPs, the new ones, we're not helping.

This is a helpful thread.

Best to all
-FH


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I think of threads as a discussion, not a banzai run. As the points are made, the discussion evolves.

Sometimes the discussion draws out the real problem, which is more than what was originally stated. This results in a more informed set of opinionating and more cogent recommendations than everyone just stating a one liner and leaving the thread.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Rubicon said:


> I'm impressed with the quality of the responses in this thread. Nary a pitchfork to be seen, honestly I didn't expect that.
> 
> This is a discussion forum so I would be in the wrong to discourage members from posting. I'm not saying at all that people shouldn't form a community here.
> 
> ...


I do agree that this forum has as much to do with long term BS posters getting some type of vicarious affirmation from seeing cheating spouses get consequences; as much as it his helping new BS's. I plead guilty myself.

But in the bigger picture, I truly believe that we help a lot of BS's - "when" they can take an honest look at themselves, and have a bit of a thick skin. Not all can at first. Some never can. That's unfortunate, but that is the nature of CWI.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Yes.
> 
> But no one sticks around anymore. They solve their issues or quit and leave. Sometimes they leave us hanging.


If you look back on some of the older posts in CWI you will see "one hit wonders" and those who posted very little and are gone. Many of these posts got a responce that was not even on the edge of being brutal yet they are gone.

I remember the one young man who was talking about suicide and he never responded. I still think about him. Did he kill himself?

For me it would be nice to know how the person resolved it.

I don't see most folks being driven away from TAM. Though the point of threadjacks, etc are valid concerns.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

badmemory said:


> But in the bigger picture, I truly believe that we help a lot of BS's - *"when" they can take an honest look at themselves, and have a bit of a thick skin*. Not all can at first. Some never can. That's unfortunate, but that is the nature of CWI.


Not picking on you, but all too often, the caveat above is used by posters here to avoid taking a look at themselves and what they post as advice. I think that is a mistake and a problem.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

As dynamic as this section can be it is still infinity more effective in helping those weather the storm of infidelity then sites such as SI or LS do we need improvement in post etiquette and dialogue yes do we need to stop thread jacking hell yes and personally i'm at the point now where I well not even bother posting in any thread I feel is nothing more then flame-bating something we seen enough of here in recent months. 



Even with all of these issues there is still a lot of good being done here as long as we all respect each others opinions , life decisions, and support each other here in CWI then I believe there is a lot we can accomplish here.



PS: Does any one know why Machiavelli got banned?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not picking on you, but all too often, the caveat above is used by posters here to avoid taking a look at themselves and what they post as advice. I think that is a mistake and a problem.


I didn't say I agreed with it, and I did mention that it was unfortunate. But I'm afraid that's the reality.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

I would have agreed with Rubicon, but item number three prevents me from agreeing as others already have and it would be a violation.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Having lurked here since November 2010, then finally registering in Feb 2011, I've seen quite a few people come and go.

This subject seems to come up about every 6 months or so, with a bunch of people wringing their hands about driving off posters with the tough advice. Excuse me, but people come and go all the time. Some stick around, some don't. That's the nature of every forum. 

Infidelity is a traumatic emotional shock, and a normal reaction to the shock of betrayal is DENIAL. Many BS's come here thinking the affair is their own fault. People give their opinions, and if that happens to be tough, so be it. And if the BS runs away, then that's their perogative. I can tell you this: Many have come back to say they had wished they had listened to the advice they were given. Here's an example.

False Recovery

A betrayed spouse can either take the advice or leave it. It's up to them to make that decision. Now, if someone crosses the line into being insulting towards the OP, then fine, there is the report button. If you don't like a certain member, then put that member on your ignore list by clicking on User CP >>Settings & Options Menu>>>Edit Ignore List.

This crap about telling people how or how they shouldn't post is a bunch of BS. I'd hate to see this forum deteriorate into Surviving Infidelity, where the only thing you can do is give someone a cyber hug  and giving a BS some straightforward advice results in the Kindness Brigade jumping all over you for being harsh and unhelpful. Or there is the Marriage Builders forum, where you can beg, rugsweep, or nice your WS back into the marriage. Go read the megathreads there, which inevitably fail. 

FACT: Infidelity in marriage occurs all the time. There will never be a shortage of BSs coming here for help. 

On average, there's over a thousand people viewing this particular forum (CWI), while the rest are viewing the Sex In Marriage forum. Today, we a low of 670 people reading. That means a lot of people are getting something from the forum even if they don't post. Some eventually do, some don't. Again, that's their choice. 

If someone chooses to post and then leave, then it's their loss. There's always going to be a new thread with a new BS who just experienced a recent DDay. 

Political Correctness can manifest itself in forums like this too. If I decide to post in a thread where 10 other people have already posted something similar to my post, then so what? Why does it bother you?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Rubicon said:


> WARNING: This post is a rant. Avoid if you are easily offended.
> 
> I think the amount of thread hijacking that takes place here contributes to that. Someone comes in, makes a post describing a situation, when they come back 24 hours later there are two or three pages of back and forth by the clique here discussing and speculating endlessly among themselves so new posters feel like strangers in their own threads. The imagination of some here is staggering, calling the assumptions that are made here a stretch is being kind.
> 
> ...


I will go against the crowd and give this a


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Rubicon said:


> WARNING: This post is a rant. Avoid if you are easily offended.
> 
> I think the amount of thread hijacking that takes place here contributes to that. Someone comes in, makes a post describing a situation, when they come back 24 hours later there are two or three pages of back and forth by the clique here discussing and speculating endlessly among themselves so new posters feel like strangers in their own threads. The imagination of some here is staggering, calling the assumptions that are made here a stretch is being kind.
> 
> ...


So has this place become so bad you cannot actually give or take advice any more ? Not from what I see. It rises and falls - some months there are more trolls than other times, some times a particular specific subject gets worked over - forgiveness, unmet needs currently, sometimes there's more woman than men and vice versa, sometimes more hijacking, sometimes etc etc. this is how most forums work. 

Frankly it rolls on, most people from what I see can get positive stuff from TAM -IF they want. Some people spend their time on here trying to be the 'police' wanting to add more rules and god knows what else. Some things will evolve some will regress.

It works as it is from what I can see from my third year in here.

Only negative thing I've seen is the banning situations and why. The motivation for some of that seems ridiculous to me and few others a bit 'power trippy' from mods or admin imo but still it's not new. They are the rules as put down by the owner so ..... 

It does look to me that sometimes people actually lose sleep about this place and I think if you find TAM is 'major' in your life then you need to have a look at things in your life!


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

Surviving Infidelity is a worthless website, and it would seem there is a concerted effort on the part of a select gang of posters here to turn TAM into another SI.

When I left my wife after her affair I surfed through several marriage sites and I picked TAM because I liked the "take no crap", tough love approach that most posters here have towards infidelity. Sadly, that ethic has been waning here of late.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I agree with Phillyguy13 on his post..

When you are new here you basically are not ready sometimes to hear the truth..

As Phillyguy13, I went back into my post as well and see I was getting brutally honest info from the start but it was hard to swallow at that time. I needed baby steps. It was too much for me. 

I also agree with Rubicon.. 

If you look back at my personal thread the last few pages where other posters talking about something other than what I posted. Mind you I am NOT COMPLAINING about it.. I way past any stage ATM and just trying to live my life... But if that type of banter would have went on in the beginning of my thread I could see it turning me off to here and the help. 

I will also say that for some TAM and CWI seem to be their only form of therapy.. Some people are very bitter and do not want people to reconcile. Basically I couldn't have it so, no one will.. Or it didn't work for me so it won't work for you..

Personally I also feel that coming back here also can open up old wounds. Sometimes you get lost in that moment and our posts reflect it. 

Personally I think I have a lot to offer from thoughts and planning suicide, to dealing with multiple affairs, attempted affairs, Emotional Affairs. To having custody of my kids. 

So this is why I come back and post and read and try to help out.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

BashfulBull said:


> Surviving Infidelity is a worthless website, and it would seem there is a concerted effort on the part of a select gang of posters here to turn TAM into another SI.
> 
> When I left my wife after her affair I surfed through several marriage sites and I picked TAM because I liked the "take no crap", tough love approach that most posters here have towards infidelity. Sadly, that ethic has been waning here of late.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Well said.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

BashfulBull said:


> Surviving Infidelity is a worthless website, and it would seem there is a concerted effort on the part of a select gang of posters here to turn TAM into another SI.
> 
> When I left my wife after her affair I surfed through several marriage sites and I picked TAM because I liked the "take no crap", tough love approach that most posters here have towards infidelity. Sadly, that ethic has been waning here of late.




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


You hit the nail right on the head


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

BashfulBull said:


> Surviving Infidelity is a worthless website, and it would seem there is a concerted effort on the part of a select gang of posters here to turn TAM into another SI.
> 
> When I left my wife after her affair I surfed through several marriage sites and *I picked TAM because I liked the "take no crap", tough love approach that most posters here have towards infidelity. Sadly, that ethic has been waning here of late.*


And long may it remain so 

I'm all for fairness and equality in nearly every part of my ongoing life but *fact is* most people come here to TAM because their cheating other half chose to forget all about 'fairness and equality' when they stepped out and deceived trickled blameshifted gaslighted their destruction into God knows how many lives even after the main 'event'

Suddenly they ( and their followers) are on here demanding 

...............fairness and equality :scratchhead:


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Headspin said:


> And long may it remain so
> 
> I'm all for fairness and equality in nearly every part of my ongoing life but *fact is* most people come here to TAM because their cheating other half chose to forget all about 'fairness and equality' when they stepped out and deceived trickled blameshifted gaslighted their destruction into God knows how many lives even after the main 'event'
> 
> ...


I totally understand this post.

I was told, it's not your fault.. you did nothing wrong, you didn't choose to cheat.. toss her out, change the bedding, get a lawyer, don't be a doormat. Expose the OM and take control of the narrative... So I did, and here I am a year later with a wife that's doing everything and anything to prove she's worthy of the gift of a second chance.

If I logged in today.. I'd be asked what I did to cause my wife to cheat.. If I tell them I really wasn't that horrible a husband, they'll tell me that I was clueless to not know my wife was cheating for so long, to think harder.. I must have done something horrible like they did... and I should be kinder to the former cheating spouses on here even if they shift blame, and light gas lamps all over the place, because each situation is unique and good and evil aren't black and white, sometimes good is bad and bad is good.. How they were great parents while they were cheating.. blah blah... 

Then I'll vomit, and get banned for gagging on my own vomit.

I'm thankful I hit TAM before SomedayDig got perma-banned... which would happen to him daily in the new TAM.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

russell28 said:


> I totally understand this post.
> 
> I was told, it's not your fault.. you did nothing wrong, you didn't choose to cheat.. toss her out, change the bedding, get a lawyer, don't be a doormat. Expose the OM and take control of the narrative... So I did, and here I am a year later with a wife that's doing everything and anything to prove she's worthy of the gift of a second chance.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


I completely agree with you.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Hardtohandle said:


> ...Some people are very bitter and do not want people to reconcile. Basically I couldn't have it so, no one will.. Or it didn't work for me so it won't work for you...


This part is often true, and so is the converse of it.

Often times I have outright advised a recently BS that their WS is not being remorseful, repentant or in any way ready for a reconciliation, and to initiate divorce proceedings... but if it ever slips out that in my own situation I chose that route for myself, then I get the "Oh I'm sorry that happened to you, it must be painful" and my advice loses all credibility (despite also offering advice to ma few to try reconciling when I see signs of a genuinely remorseful WS)

All too often people only attach themselves to the advice being offered that fits with what they want their fantasy version of life to look like, and stubbornly will not heed the advice of others that have gone before them, even if we hand them the script their cheating spouse is using, and telling them with very high accuracy what will not work for them.

A lot of foolish choices because of labelling goes on here (just like everywhere I suppose).


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Surviving Infidelity is a worthless website,"

I agree, It can be pretty bad.

Not even close to as bad as Marriage Builders though....their whole mantra of the BS fulfilling the unmet needs of the WS and trying to 'nice' them back to the M by competing with the POS AP is utterly revolting to me.

And a few posters on these boards rend to push the same ideas here and there have recently been some spats with the blunt and no-nonsense posters on some recent threads.

Its almost seemed like an MB incursion is underway.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

There is a fine line when it comes to easing people into their situation (being cheated on), and slapping them upside the head.

When I came on here in 2011, I got both sides and everything in between. Know what, I HATED the people slapping me upside the head. But much of what they were saying was pretty spot on. It's just very hard to hear that on top of the overwhelming pounding you already feel being a BS.

That said, you can't be too soft, or you don't help them at all. The key is to use sound, tough, advice, while keeping in mind these are people in a ton of pain already.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"But in the bigger picture, I truly believe that we help a lot of BS's - "when" they can take an honest look at themselves, and have a bit of a thick skin. Not all can at first. Some never can. That's unfortunate, but that is the nature of CWI."

badmemory,

I agree.

And the poster who just never can muster the strength to start fighting for themselves truly make me sad.

I have a lot of sympathy for them...no one should be treated the way they have been.

But one thing I learned about this world long ago is the the strong will always devour the weak, and justice or rightness have NOTHING to do with the final outcome. 

In a situation of infidelity, the weaker person is almost certainly going to get the short end of the stick in how the problem is resolved.

It is why it is so important for the BS to take very strong actions and decisions.

Unfortunately, some of them never can, and no amount of advice here can change that.

I think it is a mistake though when some posters become frustrated and begin to belittle or insult a perpetually weak BS...they should be pitied not ridiculed.

When I realize that a BS simply is not going to take the strong actions necessary, I try to simply stop harping on them. I share my views and opinions a few times and if its being ignored, I lay off trying to move them to action.

A great example would be the SteveK thread...after awhile I just realized trying to advise him was starting to look like harping, so I stopped.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Dyokemm said:


> "Surviving Infidelity is a worthless website,"
> 
> I agree, It can be pretty bad.
> 
> ...



As bad as Surviving Infidelity and Marriage Builders are they don't come close to the bag of crazy that is Love Shack


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

xakulax said:


> As bad as Surviving Infidelity and Marriage Builders are they don't come close to the bag of crazy that is Love Shack


Because Loveshack is run by a cheater (Tony), and moderated by cheaters (William, etc). 

The only good thing about SI is their Investigative Tips Forum, which you need 70 or more posts to access.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Lon said:


> Often times I have outright advised a recently BS that their WS is not being remorseful, repentant or in any way ready for a reconciliation, and to initiate divorce proceedings... but if it ever slips out that in my own situation I chose that route for myself, then I get the "Oh I'm sorry that happened to you, it must be painful" and my advice loses all credibility


Then there is the other side of the coin. If I advise a BS to divorce; I imagine that if they knew my story; they would think - that's easy for you to say, you're in R, you didn't pull the trigger on D and your wife was horrible. (No one has actually ever said that to me but I keep waiting).

In my view though, there is credibility on both sides of the experience. But perhaps a bit more where the adviser has actually done what he is advising - and had a successful outcome.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> Because Loveshack is run by a cheater (Tony), and moderated by cheaters (William, etc).
> 
> The only good thing about SI is their Investigative Tips Forum, which *you need 70 or more posts to access*.




Yeah that makes a lot of sense :scratchhead:

wasn't SI also founded by a WS


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> Because Loveshack is run by a cheater (Tony), and moderated by cheaters (William, etc).
> 
> The only good thing about SI is their Investigative Tips Forum, which you need 70 or more posts to access.


Strange how gravity even works on the internet, flinging people around until they end up in their designated space.

Its pretty difficult to conjure up empathy for a cheater. If they had a horrible marriage, discuss that with someone, but trying to make us understand why they cheated? Not an easy sell. Go tell it to the people at Abusers Anon.


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## Rubicon (Jan 13, 2014)

All the talk in the world about how much better this site is than the others is just wonderful but does nothing to address the issues the OP (Bandit) is talking about. Nobody at any time claimed the other sites were doing things better than we were and if we all agree those sites suck then we should equally agree they are a poor benchmark for comparison. So what is the point in doing so? Does it make those guilty of bad behaviour here feel better about themselves? I hope not.

I want to also point out that at no time did anyone request that we water down the advice given to new members. we don't have to dilute the message at all. it is just that we can deliver the message pinned to a cupcake (show some empathy) or pinned to a bat (in a rude and condescending way) It's not what you say, it's how you say it and nobody here has earned the right to be rude to others.

Some members obviously take offence being asked to put the bat away, but overwhelmingly the majority of members here agree they should. There will always be "That Guy" who wants to go against the wishes of the majority and we will never reach him/them as they are not concerned about anything other than doing things their way. However the majority here can work towards improving things and we should not let them deter us from trying.

What we can and should do is not allow them to be intellectually dishonest. Deflecting by trying to compare this site to other sites, Claiming we want the quality of the message degraded etc. are all just ways for them to avoid addressing the issue of crowding the new members out of the threads they started or hijacking the thread because they are simply too lazy/inept to just start a new thread on the topic they want to discuss.

The issue the OP started the thread to discuss is that new members leave regularly and don't come back. I think we all agree this is happening, and yes it does happen on other discussion forums all over the web. That in no way means we can't slow down the rate at which they do by improving the way we conduct ourselves here. 

Have a great day everyone.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

russell28 said:


> I totally understand this post.
> 
> I was told, it's not your fault.. you did nothing wrong, you didn't choose to cheat.. toss her out, change the bedding, get a lawyer, don't be a doormat. Expose the OM and take control of the narrative... So I did, and here I am a year later with a wife that's doing everything and anything to prove she's worthy of the gift of a second chance.
> 
> ...


Yeah, and to make matters worse, some of these egalitarian newbies are reporting you to the mods as abusive if you deign to disagree with their "blame the BS mantra". Not only are they backwards in their thinking, they are conniving also.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"The issue the OP started the thread to discuss is that new members leave regularly and don't come back."

I see this happen A LOT on many different sites.

Some of it may indeed be because posters feel overwhelmed by the torrent of blunt advice here....but you see the same thing often on other sites like SI and MB too.

I still think the majority of 'fly-by' posters stop posting because the situations they are in turn to complete chaos, and the last thing on their mind is coming to TAM (or anywhere else) to post.

Occasionally we actually see them come back MUCH later with a brief update, and the explanation is along the lines of what I just described.

Some that do not come back may just feel that it is pointless so long after the situation has been resolved, one way or the other.

I have also noticed that some posters are actually posting their situations on more than one site, then they decide which they feel is most comfortable and stick with it....the threads then usually die on the other sites.

I guess I'm saying that the issue of how people interact with new posters here is an important one, and the importance of good manners and not insulting people should be done at all times.

But we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that every poster who suddenly stops updating has been 'run off' the site by bad behavior.


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Dyokemm said:


> "The issue the OP started the thread to discuss is that new members leave regularly and don't come back."
> 
> I see this happen A LOT on many different sites.
> 
> ...





Or its because they are not getting advice they want to hear that finds them not accountable for their actions there is a lot of that being posted here to and Some if not most of these fly by night posters are just seeking opinions to reinforce their bad decisions. The fact is not everyone who comes here is seeking advice to change there life some come here for affirmation/validation some come here for information and some come here just to troll we have seen it all here we just don't know..




I think the best way to alleviate some of the problems would be this if the OP doesn't like your opinion and doesn't want your advice don't post in their thread problem solved


----------



## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

We are starting to lack different opinions. We are also seeing attacks on posters rather than ideas.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

"Thread locked. Multiple complaints from both BSs and WSs. While some of the postings could be seen as helpful too many are making light of the subject matter. Far too many, in fact, to clean up the thread. The thread will be deleted later today. "


This is from my tongue in cheek 'reasons' thread, that had actually sparked some good debate. One person kept posting annoying one liners, but instead of warning or banning that guy... Lets delete the whole thread, put our hands over our ears and hum loudly. Lets all pretend it never happened. Nothing to see here, move along.

The new CWI. Even if stuff is helpful, we can't have anyone making light of subject matter. Keep everything super serious..mmmkay??


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

F you mod.. ban me. Perma ban please.

Thank you.


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

russell28 said:


> F you mod.. ban me. Perma ban please.
> 
> Thank you.


----------



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Russell:

Good luck to you and your kids.


----------



## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

russell28 said:


> F you mod.. ban me. Perma ban please.
> 
> Thank you.


Russell, you're starting to take it personal. 

What others think has nothing to do with the way you live your life. 

It maybe good to take a break from here. 

Best

Edit: Too late.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, and to make matters worse, some of these egalitarian newbies are reporting you to the mods as abusive if you deign to disagree with their "blame the BS mantra". Not only are they backwards in their thinking, they are conniving also.


You damn skippy.

Oh crap, I'm gonna get in trouble for that one aint I?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

xakulax said:


> PS: Does any one know why Machiavelli got banned?


Beats me. Unless an offending post was removed, which usually the posts stay up, I didn't see a thing.

Someone PM'd me tell me which post got him banned(not sure how this person knows), and after review of that post, if it is in fact the one, there was nothing in it that warranted banning.

I think a few ladies got together and desperately tried to find something to report and the best they could come up with was far reaching, but they were successful nonetheless.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

russell28 said:


> F you mod.. ban me. Perma ban please.
> 
> Thank you.


Now dammit Russell, why did ya have to go and do that?

The cheater apologists just won.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Dyokemm said:


> But we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that every poster who suddenly stops updating has been 'run off' the site by bad behavior.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showpost.php?p=898982


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Some of you guys have just never gottin' it!!!!!!!


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

So, what are you waiting on, Brad. Explain it to everyone.


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

JustGrinding said:


> So, what are you waiting on, Brad. Explain it to everyone.


Ask Russell28, he can explain it to you


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> Some of you guys have just never gottin' it!!!!!!!





BradWesley said:


> Ask Russell28, he can explain it to you


LOL. Yes, this is always the best course of action. Ask another poster to explain something you stated. It has NEVER led to locked threads, deleted posts and bans....ever.


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Ask someone who can't answer............ okay


----------



## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Maybe Russell28 should have thought to put his brain in gear before typing!!!


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

russell28 said:


> F you mod.. ban me. Perma ban please.
> 
> Thank you.


Thank _you_.

Here's a guy who earned himself a blame-shift free R, because he just wouldn't stand for anything less. He goes the same way as SomedayDig who had no truck with this Alpha/Beta/Omega bollocks. Dig was a pilot for chrissakes! TAM is a poorer place without the both of them. 

russell28, I wish you all the best for you, your R and your family, my man.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

JustGrinding said:


> So, what are you waiting on, Brad. Explain it to everyone.


Nobody was taking the bait and he felt ignored. Then when someone did bite, you, he doesn't answer.

But since you already started it, well ok. Brad, what is it that we don't get?


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Nobody was taking the bait and he felt ignored. Then when someone did bite, you, he doesn't answer.
> 
> But since you already started it, well ok. Brad, what is it that we don't get?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

BashfulBull said:


> Surviving Infidelity is a worthless website, and it would seem there is a concerted effort on the part of a select gang of posters here to turn TAM into another SI.
> 
> When I left my wife after her affair I surfed through several marriage sites and I picked TAM because I liked the "take no crap", tough love approach that most posters here have towards infidelity. Sadly, that ethic has been waning here of late.


That's probably because some here feel that every case is different and that a one solution to all problems approach doesn't work.

"Take no crap" and "tough love" approaches are typical. There is no doubt that they are appropriate in some circumstances. But in others they are not. Sometimes the crap has been flowing both ways and sometimes the tough love is a code word for domination.

I know that the stock answer to what I've said is that infidelity is the worst thing that a woman can do to a man. But even if that were true, which it isn't, there are differences in cases. Speaking for myself I like to find out more about a situation than is usually given in the first post.


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> That's probably because some here feel that every case is different and that a one solution to all problems approach doesn't work.
> 
> "Take no crap" and "tough love" approaches are typical. There is no doubt that they are appropriate in some circumstances. But in others they are not. Sometimes the crap has been flowing both ways and sometimes the tough love is a code word for domination.
> 
> *I know that the stock answer to what I've said is that infidelity is the worst thing that a woman can do to a man*. But even if that were true, which it isn't, there are differences in cases. Speaking for myself I like to find out more about a situation than is usually given in the first post.





I would argue infidelity is the worst thing you can do to anyone male or female but that's just my two cents


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, and to make matters worse, some of these egalitarian newbies are reporting you to the mods as abusive if you deign to disagree with their "blame the BS mantra". Not only are they backwards in their thinking, they are conniving also.


I understand how you feel. But could you direct me to some threads here where "egalitarian newbies" are reporting folks to the mods because you disagreed with them?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> F you mod.. ban me. Perma ban please.
> 
> Thank you.


Oh my...


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Beats me. Unless an offending post was removed, which usually the posts stay up, I didn't see a thing.
> 
> Someone PM'd me tell me which post got him banned(not sure how this person knows), and after review of that post, if it is in fact the one, there was nothing in it that warranted banning.
> 
> I think a few ladies got together and desperately tried to find something to report and the best they could come up with was far reaching, but they were successful nonetheless.


Why are you sure that a few ladies did it? And why are folks so sure that it is newbies?

By the way, how many posts does one need to not be classified as a newbie?


----------



## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Nobody was taking the bait and he felt ignored. Then when someone did bite, you, he doesn't answer.
> 
> But since you already started it, well ok. Brad, what is it that we don't get?[/QUOT
> 
> ...


----------



## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> That's probably because some here feel that every case is different and that a one solution to all problems approach doesn't work.
> 
> "Take no crap" and "tough love" approaches are typical. There is no doubt that they are appropriate in some circumstances. But in others they are not. Sometimes the crap has been flowing both ways and sometimes the tough love is a code word for domination.
> 
> I know that the stock answer to what I've said is that infidelity is the worst thing that a woman can do to a man. But even if that were true, which it isn't, there are differences in cases. Speaking for myself I like to find out more about a situation than is usually given in the first post.


From one rational person to another, thank you!


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

You sure do like to use that exclamation key allot don't you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

OMG!

In a thread about the current state of Coping with Infidelity the thread implodes into a place resembling a loony bin !!!

What the fk happened here


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Headspin said:


> OMG!
> 
> In a thread about the current state of Coping with Infidelity the thread implodes into a place resembling a loony bin !!!
> 
> What the fk happened here




Will bandit you wanted to know what the Current State of CWI was will here it is...


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

xakulax said:


> Will bandit you wanted to know what the Current State of CWI was will here it is...


Tbh ...... I'm speechless really 

Don't really know what to say. I can't believe what's happened here! 

Mental


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Yeah...

Some of you boneheads go out of your ways to look for any angle to fvck up my threads. 

Anyway, what's the deal with all these feelgood, unicorns and daisies, blame the BS (but only if the BS is male) types taking over the place? 

:scratchhead:


----------



## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

:scratchhead:


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah...
> 
> Some of you boneheads go out of your ways to look for any angle to fvck up my threads.
> 
> ...


They only "take the place over" if you let them. Marginalize them by ignoring their self serving bull shirt and keep giving sound advice (Tough Love) to those who need it. I'm not interested in making the waywards feel better about themselves, I'm interested in pointing out to the betrayed that they have options.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

the middleman said:


> they only "take the place over" if you let them. Marginalize them by ignoring their self serving bull shirt and keep giving sound advice (tough love) to those who need it. I'm not interested in making the waywards feel better about themselves, i'm interested in pointing out to the betrayed that they have options.


qft! 

Stay strong Guys!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah...
> 
> Some of you boneheads go out of your ways to look for any angle to fvck up my threads.
> 
> ...


Try the block feature - it works wonders with certain posters on this site.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Try the block feature - it works wonders with certain posters on this site.


No. I'm not a mod. I happen to believe in free speech. 

I think stupid people have the right and freedom to come on TAM and say stupid things so everyone can know how stupid they are.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> No. I'm not a mod. I happen to believe in free speech.
> 
> I think stupid people have the right and freedom to come on TAM and say stupid things so everyone can know how stupid they are.


The block feature doesn't attempt to ban anyone what it does is allows you not to see their stupid posts. It's great for the blood pressure.


----------



## krismimo (Jan 26, 2011)

THERE IS A BLOCK FEATURE????? Holy christmas Batman!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I know that the stock answer to what I've said is that infidelity is the worst thing that a woman can do to a man.


Stock answer would entail raising the baby of an Affair partner 1a) unknowingly 1b)knowingly .


----------



## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

It is too bad that the other thread by Russell was deleted. He asked me a few questions and I wanted to answer.

He asked what I learned when I was cheated on.

Unlike many on CWI I listened instead of ignoring the whys. It did not save us but it did help me going forward. I learned I need to communicate, how to show appreciation and affection.

This made me a little more confident going forward. I felt I could have some control over my future.

He asked what I saw when I looked into myself. Russell's answer was to compare himself to OM. To me, OM never mattered. If not him it would have been someone else. She was mine to loose, I had home field advantage and got beat.

The answer is always with me. If my wife cheats, I will end the M. What I do is the best I can to make sure it never happens again. I control what I can.

I value the opinions of the WW because they give me the insight into what I fear the most.


----------



## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Have to agree with Rubicon. Waaaayy too much thread jacking. Which is really why I don't post or come here as much as I used to. It's especially apparent when the OP pretty much disappears yet you still have 3, 4, 5 or more pages of the same users going back and forth with their own theoretical insights and disagreements on the situation. You have to skim through multiple posts and pages just to get to the OP's post. Not to mention the users who will repeatedly say the same thing several times in one thread while just using different words.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Trickster said:


> I don't believe we all need to live in Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, but sometimes TAMMERS can be very mean and bitter.
> 
> We shouldn't tell people how they should feel.


It's not mean and bitter in as much as it's tough love, so to speak. What sounds harsh is actually good advice packaged bluntly from people who have been through it (for the most part). As far as most of the guys who pass through here; they need a 2x4 across the head because they are either scared sh1t over their wives infidelity or are so in a fog they are eating sh1t sandwiches with a smile on. Posters are only pointing out to them that the don't have to accept humiliation and they have options.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> It's not mean and bitter in as much as it's tough love, so to speak. What sounds harsh is actually good advice packaged bluntly from people who have been through it (for the most part). As far as most of the guys who pass through here; they need a 2x4 across the head because they are either scared sh1t over their wives infidelity or are so in a fog they are eating sh1t sandwiches with a smile on. Posters are only pointing out to them that the don't have to accept humiliation and they have options.


You replied before I deleted my post....

Sometimes it seems a situation is amplified by the posts....

It also seems like the advise is always divorce if there is infelity. It may be true that very few people R afterwards. D, is more than likely, the end result. Maybe there is no reason to sugarcoat anything. But yes, some people need 

I see the BS torchure themselves here. I see their hurt. Whether its a sexless marriage or infidelity... Many times a situation is amplified here. But yes, some people need s 2X4 to wake up.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

The best part of this thread, for me, is watching "some" posters complain about thread jacking and bitterness, while oblivious to the FACT they are thread-jackers as well.


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> No. I'm not a mod. I happen to believe in free speech.
> 
> I think stupid people have the right and freedom to come on TAM and say stupid things so everyone can know how stupid they are.


Just remember, there are no stupid ideas. 




Just stupid people.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

jim123 said:


> I value the opinions of the WW because they give me the insight into what I fear the most.


:iagree: I think many of us (I will use the first person here) are too quick to ignore the WS input (let's call it) as excuse-making or as accepting the notion that the BS has some culpability in the infidelity. Not at all. You don't have to buy into any of this to listen to the WS' version of "why." What you do get out of it are some answers to the question that probably vexes most BS's:

"WTF were you thinking?"


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> I won't give you the answers, that would make it too easy.


Ah, so drop a meaningless comment and run.

Ok, I need not take anything you say seriously then.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jim123 said:


> It is too bad that the other thread by Russell was deleted. He asked me a few questions and I wanted to answer.


Yes, too bad indeed. It was about the possibility of trusting a WS 100% ever again. 

But threadjackers that wanted it to be about the reasons they cheated were successful in getting it removed after a requesting it be closed. The thread wasn't about reasons and I had even stated such and that the thread is fine the way it is.




> He asked what I learned when I was cheated on.


Ah, you were referring to that thread. I was referring to the thread about trusting the WS 100% again.


So, in keeping with on topic with the thread, the current state of CWI? Those that want to turn someone's thread into something else have the audacity to request the thread be closed when there were no guidelines being broken, offensive dialogue, etc.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> It's not mean and bitter in as much as it's tough love, so to speak. What sounds harsh is actually good advice packaged bluntly from people who have been through it (for the most part). As far as most of the guys who pass through here; they need a 2x4 across the head because they are either scared sh1t over their wives infidelity or are so in a fog they are eating sh1t sandwiches with a smile on. Posters are only pointing out to them that the don't have to accept humiliation and they have options.


I will say again that far too many people justify venting their anger by hiding behind tough love. Some are mean and bitter when posting, then argue that it is merely tough love and it is not their fault the OP can't handle the truth.

To me, the question should be what is the goal in posting? If it is to help a BS, and certain posts are part of what chases them away, perhaps those posters should take a step back and reflect.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I will say again that far too many people justify venting their anger by hiding behind tough love. Some are mean and bitter when posting, then argue that it is merely tough love and it is not their fault the OP can't handle the truth.
> 
> To me, the question should be what is the goal in posting? If it is to help a BS, and certain posts are part of what chases them away, perhaps those posters should take a step back and reflect.


Reflect on what tho? someone burying their heads in the sand in denial whilst we give them 1000 % accuracy in what that denial will lead to ?

I've seen countless posters here that after the event later down the line have said if only they'd listened they'd have saved themselves an awful lot more trouble. And nearly all of them have said it was a good thing that a few people shook them up a bit to finally get the message across

If somebody ruffles my feathers to make me 'get' something I am missing I'll never hold it against them.

It's a good thing.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Headspin said:


> If somebody ruffles my feathers to make me 'get' something I am missing I'll never hold it against them.
> 
> It's a good thing.


But it all too often does not stop at just ruffling feathers. There are posters who use this forum to vent their own personal anger and bile at their own WS. It becomes about what they need, as opposed to what the OP needs. Rather than using one 2X4, it becomes a conga line, with each poster hitting harder than the last, all in an effort to just tell it like it is. Because if the recipient can't handle it, they need a thicker skin or are not remorseful, or any other reason except looking at what they posted.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Reflect on what tho? someone burying their heads in the sand in denial whilst we give them 1000 % accuracy in what that denial will lead to ?
> 
> I've seen countless posters here that after the event later down the line have said if only they'd listened they'd have saved themselves an awful lot more trouble. And nearly all of them have said it was a good thing that a few people shook them up a bit to finally get the message across
> 
> ...



I'm not suggesting good advice is not given on CWI for both the WS and BS, I've seen both situations happen here. However, I'm not convinced that all opinions and advice comes across with 100% accuracy. All too often there are sides of the story not always revealed by the OP and wouldn't it be a perfect world if we could have both spouses on each of the CWI threads.

Simply put, stating ones opinion or giving advice is great based on the wisdom of experience by so many members (the greatness of TAM). But, we all have to recognize our control over any situation is limited as is our complete understanding of every situation. And, like TAG stated we all need to be careful so as to not mask tough love (which I have no issue with at all) behind something else. 

Finally, when one has a differing opinion, we all need to take a deep breath and find a way to disagree with civility otherwise TAM will truly go the way of some forums I have been witness to in the past.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

1.) Respondents believing what they have to say and wanting to be heard is more important than addressing the OP's issue.

2.)Being butt-hurt that someone DOESN'T want to hear what you have to say, or has responded in a _timely_ fashion.

3.) Wishful posting. Projection. Posting responses or advocating advice or action that the respondent wishes they had done, or would like to see in order that a betrayed spouse gets their come-uppance, or is 'destroyed'. 

4.) Mob mentality. There is no 'party line' ... despite those who want one. 

5.) Insults, personal attacks, and baiting are not remotely the same as tough love. 

CWI is by far the most active, and volatile forum on the site. All the more the tragedy. It is raw, emotional and visceral.

All the more reason that those who have gotten through, healed, or moved past infidelity need to keep their collective sh!t together in order to assist those that come here to post for the first time, REGARDLESS of whether or not they are the Betrayed or the Betrayor.

And if you fall on the side of believing my last sentence makes me a WS apologist, then you are likely part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

There are plenty of folks here I admire. And I have had to ban some of them over the years.

This place is never going to be easy. But it shouldn't equate to a hazing ritual when someone posts about their life being torn apart.

Thanks for participating.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I have personally backed off posting here because I've developed an inner voice that simply screams, 'Divorce!' when I read so many of the OP's.

I could think that the development of this inner voice means that my sensibility is being compromised, but somehow I don't think that's the issue. I think that the pattern of infidelity and attempted reconciliation is so sadly predictable that most of these people will wind up divorced eventually anyway.

Because of this inevitability, it's not often that I indulge my CWI inner voice. The OP's who come for help are rarely at the stage where their hearts are aligned with their heads. They will get there, however; most of them seem to. I think the 'tell it like it is' tough love approach of many posters may seem harsh to some, but I can't help but feel that it can jumpstart this inevitable process. For myself, I often try to stop myself from telling it like it is because the OP's aren't yet ready to hear it.

So, if a mod is reading this, if you see me post 'Divorce!,' please ban me immediately. It means that any better angels that I may have have flown the coop.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> So, if a mod is reading this, if you see me post 'Divorce!,' please ban me immediately. It means that any better angels that I may have have flown the coop.


Oh lets not start that as some violation of rules. Because *sometimes* its obvious where "divorce" is just that simple and makes all too much sense.

And for those reconcilers that would be ticked off by that statement, I bolded the key word.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

alte Dame said:


> So, if a mod is reading this, if you see me post 'Divorce!,' please ban me immediately. It means that any better angels that I may have have flown the coop.


If you want posting 'Divorce' to get you banned, I suggest posting it like this:

* DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE*


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Deejo said:


> If you want posting 'Divorce' to get you banned, I suggest posting it like this:
> 
> * DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE DIVORCE*


Can I report this post?


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Personally; I think it's very sad to see, that CWI has become so polarized. It's either "You've been cheated on? You had it coming and probably deserve it" or "Hang'm all".

I wish there would be room for the opinion that every human being is responsible for their own actions, and no one elses. This can be applied to both reconciliation seeking couples, divorcing couples and all those looking for which path to choose.

I have needed to back off a bit myself because both extremes have made me bounce back and forth like a pinball mashine.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Easy Deejo.....I don't want to see you get banned, you are one of the good ones.

oh wait you are a moderator.... still one of the good ones.....can moderators get banned?

how does one become a moderator?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vellocet said:


> Can I report this post?


Should have put the rider on it:

*This reportable post is provided as an example only.*


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

convert said:


> Easy Deejo.....I don't want to see you get banned, you are one of the good ones.
> 
> oh wait you are a moderator.... still one of the good ones.....can moderators get banned?
> 
> how does one become a moderator?


Bribery, compromising photos, and we have to learn and sing this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_P6UqlX-NQ

I barely got through it without bursting into tears.



/End_ThreadJack


----------



## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> "But in the bigger picture, I truly believe that we help a lot of BS's - "when" they can take an honest look at themselves, and have a bit of a thick skin. Not all can at first. Some never can. That's unfortunate, but that is the nature of CWI."
> 
> badmemory,
> 
> ...


*Co-Dependancy is a MOTHERFVCKER *

I could not listen to anything until I was able to get a grasp of my Co-dependancy issue.. 

As big of a tough guy I was at work, I was a weak timid lamb at home with my wife.. 

What needs to be done is find some way, some how to make someone understand that they need to be very strong and tough to win back their spouses.. But you need to get the point of across without saying *grow a pair of balls and man up you b1tch*.. Because it doesn't work with many.. Personally I wanted to reach into the screen and choke the crap out of guys who told me that.. 

Unfortunately trying to convey that in text is much harder than in person.. 

I think part of me was paralyzed from my job as well. I have seen so many guys get in trouble, get arrested and ruin their careers.. I was afraid of losing the only thing that kept me sane.. I could only imagine losing my guns and being put in a room to watch housing complex security cameras.. I would have went truly nuts.. I had to voluntarily give up my guns for 6 months, the first time I have ever had to do that in 24 years.. I felt demasculated. 

Maybe some good success stories need to be sticky. Something like a testimonial that reads because I listened to these people I kept my marriage.. 

Gonna sound retarded but as an example. In many online games like World of Warcraft there are people who study certain builds.. And they make Large threads based around these builds and explain the game mechanics why this build works and how to leverage this build to your advantage.. These threads would be sticky up by moderators. 

So maybe we need some sort of manual here as well. Something that explains in many ways why being tough works.. Why attacking the Wayward fast and swift helps.. Why Outing the cheater helps.. Why trying to beg and being nice never works. 
Maybe post links in these threads to success stories.. 

This is why I labeled my thread as mymistake. Because in many ways I failed to listen and because I did I lost my marriage.. 

But oddly enough I neither realized that this was actually the best thing for me. I didn't realize that my Ex constantly looking to cheat on me would never be fixed and that I would be dealing with this 5 years from now again if I ever fixed this. That there was an underlying problem that my Ex needed to fix and couldn't or didn't have the right professional help to help her fix it.. 

So go figure this one out now... 

IF I had the balls to listen I might have fixed my issue of my cheating wife. But without the proper counseling I probably would have been back here again. 

What I can say that today as I said before I am better off. 

Yes, are there emotional issues ? Without a doubt.. 

But I realize that no matter how bad I think I might have it now. I know it would have been worse being still with her..


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But it all too often does not stop at just ruffling feathers. There are posters who use this forum to vent their own personal anger and bile at their own WS. It becomes about what they need, as opposed to what the OP needs. Rather than using one 2X4, it becomes a conga line, with each poster hitting harder than the last, all in an effort to just tell it like it is. Because if the recipient can't handle it, they need a thicker skin or are not remorseful, or any other reason except looking at what they posted.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Hardtohandle said:


> *Co-Dependancy is a MOTHERFVCKER *
> 
> I could not listen to anything until I was able to get a grasp of my Co-dependancy issue..
> 
> ...






:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Oh lets not start that as some violation of rules. Because *sometimes* its obvious where "divorce" is just that simple and makes all too much sense.
> 
> And for those reconcilers that would be ticked off by that statement, I bolded the key word.


I was making a personal statement about myself & didn't mean my comment to reflect any sort of CWI rule.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Switching gears here....

I was surfing the wayard section of SI last night, and what struck me was the threads from the female way wards.

Many of them admitted to carrying on with their affairs and trickle truthing after DDay 1, and do you know why they say they continued? Why they lost respect for their BHs? 

Because their BHs refused to hold them accountable, didn't want the details, wanted to rug sweep the whole thing. These women say they were practically begging their BHs to confront them, yell at them...give them some kind of consequence TO SHOW THEM THAT THEIR HUSBANDS CARED ABOUT THEM AND WANTED TO LEAD THEIR WIVES INTO RECONCILIATION. By not having the hammer lowered on them, they felt their husbands didn't give a crap about them or the marriage. 

So they continued on with their As, the broke NC or the TTd. 

Isn't that interesting?

Kinda flies in the face of all these posters who have come on here advocating soft love, don't confront, don't monitor, don't levy consequences....

Very interesting.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Kinda flies in the face of all these posters who have come on here advocating soft love, don't confront, don't monitor, don't levy consequences....


This board is full of enough examples that people should have an idea of what works and what doesn't.

The soft love people are willfully lost in fantasy land because the real world has consequences.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Switching gears here....
> 
> I was surfing the wayard section of SI last night, and what struck me was the threads from the female way wards.
> 
> ...




Funny how you mention SI wayward section I go there daily to see there view point what strikes me the most is the number of D day's some of this BS put up with one poster has 7 D days! come on now..


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

alte Dame said:


> I was making a personal statement about myself & didn't mean my comment to reflect any sort of CWI rule.


I am developing that inner voice as well- you are not alone and thus there is a good reason you feel that way. Divorce IS often the best way to fix a relationship (or at least the only chance). When a person fails to demonstrate a demand for self-respect, he/she will not be respected. As we see in the world at large, those without power are dominated and exploited by those who do have power, and the powerful justify such actions by circular statements that celebrate their power. 

I have to say that I have considered leaving this forum permanently. I have never posted a thread requesting help- I come here to help others and that is my only motivation for being here. When I see someone like Machiavelli get banned, I have to wonder whether I should be here or not. 

I try to be open to any facet of a person's argument here. At the same time, I see others completely dismiss an elaborate response because of one small fraction they dont agree with. To dismiss their argument, I see snide comments that subtly attack the person while still giving the poster plausible deniability so they can keep on posting. When someone truly comes through with bold words (Machiavelli for instance), they get banned.

"Its my way or you're stupid and wrong". Mods seem to let these people off..

I want to say I dont apply this to all mods, nor do I think all people here act in such a way.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> When a person fails to demonstrate a demand for self-respect, he/she will not be respected.


This should be one of the first things a betrayed spouse reads.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> When someone truly comes through with bold words (Machiavelli for instance), they get banned.


Since Mach keeps coming up on many threads let me address as I was the one that banned him. The post in question was removed. In short, a BS was discussing having a couple of buddies go over and beat the **** out of the OM. Mach response was to second it and suggest it be a more permanent solution. I have no problem with members suggesting aggressive means to end an affair and fix a marriage but promoting violence will not be permitted on the forum hence a 30 day ban. According to his profile notes, this is his third banning, which is generally the threshold for a perma-ban. He was treated fairly.




OptimisticPessimist said:


> "Its my way or you're stupid and wrong". Mods seem to let these people off..
> I want to say I dont apply this to all mods, nor do I think all people here act in such a way.


Posts need to be reported if they break forum rules and this kind of behavior cuts both ways in CWI and P&R. We make judgement calls as best we can and with all other things in life we don't always get it right.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Deejo said:


> If you want posting 'Divorce' to get you banned, I suggest posting it like this:


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## Rubicon (Jan 13, 2014)

What a thread, didn't expect the last 24 hours of activity to play out like they have but it sure provides a perfect example of a thread falling apart. It does seem reason has prevailed however so we carry on.

Unfortunately this little gem is far too accurate:



> it becomes a conga line, with each poster hitting harder than the last,


It is exactly what I was trying to say before but creates a perfect visual to describe it.

Sticky threads for relevant info is a great suggestion and the mods are already doing it. Weightlifters posts come to mind. Whenever someone asks about VAR's and the like, invariably he comes in and posts his epic novel that has about 16 chapters of info. One sticky and a link to it would work far better than 500 threads all with the same 100 paragraph narrative adding almost a full page to each thread.

Don't get me wrong. it's good info and can be very useful and informative, I think he is being very helpful but some threads are needlessly 100 + pages long. Between the conga lines and the repetitive reposts it becomes a burden to follow some threads, the chore becomes scrolling through picking out just the posts the OP make. I`d rather read it all but in the words of Sweet Brown `Àin`t nobody got time for that!`

Doesn`t pretty much everyone hate it when someone pops into a thread and starts replying without reading in full, very often what they say is a waste of time because it was already addressed but they didn`t know that because they didn`t read it.

For that reason I skip over a lot of threads that are already 10+ pages. The Signal to Noise ratio is simply to high.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> Since Mach keeps coming up on many threads let me address as I was the one that banned him. The post in question was removed. In short, a BS was discussing having a couple of buddies go over and beat the **** out of the OM. Mach response was to second it and suggest it be a more permanent solution. I have no problem with members suggesting aggressive means to end an affair and fix a marriage but promoting violence will not be permitted on the forum hence a 30 day ban. According to his profile notes, this is his third banning, which is generally the threshold for a perma-ban. He was treated fairly.


Fair enough. I figured since hes pretty bold it had to do with "tough love", but I could see how that is bannable. It is good to see he will be coming back (hopefully). I want to say that Ive seen others banned for far less, and thats really where im coming from with my criticism.


Amplexor said:


> Posts need to be reported if they break forum rules and this kind of behavior cuts both ways in CWI and P&R. We make judgement calls as best we can and with all other things in life we don't always get it right.


Please understand, some of us (generally the ones who dont make such comments) come from the school of thought where you dont rat someone out. I understand as a mod you may not like this mindset.

When I see such comments, I just roll my eyes and keep reading. If its obvious they wont be contributing anything but antagonistic insults, I skip their post and move on. But I cannot bring myself to report them; perhaps its my flaws that cause me to be offended by a post others might find useful? You will notice as a mod I have never reported a post. For better or worse, that is part of my principles.

I dont have a problem with it so much as the fact that bold posters seem to face the hammer more often.

Again, not directed at any mod specificly- just an observation.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Bribery, compromising photos, and we have to learn and sing this song:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_P6UqlX-NQ
> 
> ...


You forgot the swimsuit and talent competition portion or was I the only one who had to do that?


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

OptimisticPessimist said:


> .
> Please understand, some of us (generally the ones who dont make such comments) come from the school of thought where you dont rat someone out. I understand as a mod you may not like this mindset.
> 
> When I see such comments, I just roll my eyes and keep reading. If its obvious they wont be contributing anything but antagonistic insults, I skip their post and move on. But I cannot bring myself to report them; perhaps its my flaws that cause me to be offended by a post others might find useful? You will notice as a mod I have never reported a post. For better or worse, that is part of my principles.
> ...


There's nothing wrong with reporting a post you think may be questionable. It's not the mafia here. You're not ratting on anyone. When a report is made, all the mods can take a look at said post then make a decision. There are people who make frequent reports and there are others who only report once in a great while. The reports are treated the same way. Moderators can't be in every thread and read every post, so we count on posters to report things that may have crossed the line. It's sort of like a civic duty as a participant of this message board.


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## Rubicon (Jan 13, 2014)

> Please understand, some of us (generally the ones who dont make such comments) come from the school of thought where you dont rat someone out. I understand as a mod you may not like this mindset.


Interesting, This mindset is exactly the opposite of what we recommend as a group. While I relate 100% and agree with what you say as I also would never report a post as I don`t get offended personally by anything a stranger on the internet might say, I know here the concept of exposure and confronting is a pillar of advice given to almost all new members. 

The whole concept of Ratting is a tactic to intimidate someone into helping another get away with breaking the rules. That's why it`s biggest supporters are people locked in prisons, they hate rats because someone being open and honest might get them put in jail.

Would we ever tell a BS not to expose to the OWH or OMW.

Of course not. That's rug sweeping.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I was making a personal statement about myself & didn't mean my comment to reflect any sort of CWI rule.


I know. I was poking fun.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> ...all these posters who have come on here advocating soft love, don't confront, don't monitor, don't levy consequences....


I haven't seen anyone advocating "don't confront" (unless it's "don't confront YET" during the intel gathering phase) or "don't monitor" after infidelity has been discovered.

Somebody around here actually gives advice like that?? :scratchhead:

I'm in R and I believe in second chances in some situations (*some *clearly don't deserve it), but there's no way anyone should ever advise being that passive after infidelity! To be honest, I don't read every post. I must have missed that kind of advice being given here. 

Really? *Around here*?

You can't heal if you don't ask about specific lies that were told, and if you don't keep a close eye on what your spouse does, especially in the early months. Confronting the deceit and the betrayal and the pain that it caused, and adopting complete transparency and accountability are essential for moving forward.

I think the "demand" for a timeline that keeps coming up on one thread is different than "confronting." If you ask for a timeline but an adult doesn't want to do it, that's the end of that. *Telling* an *adult* they have an assignment is demeaning, and isn't the best way to deal with the problem of getting at what was really going on and when - Shirley Glass advises that both partners get out their calendars and go over them together. I would never have "assigned" my husband to go and sit down and come up with a timeline and then come back and turn it in - that's just too "big me, little you" and humiliating. 

"Confronting" when a BS is trying to heal (and trying to heal a marriage) isn't about eye for an eye - you humiliated me, now I get to humiliate you.

Consequences are fine, but humiliation - if you're really trying to repair a marriage - is a lousy one.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> Since Mach keeps coming up on many threads let me address as I was the one that banned him. The post in question was removed. In short, a BS was discussing having a couple of buddies go over and beat the **** out of the OM. Mach response was to second it and suggest it be a more permanent solution. I have no problem with members suggesting aggressive means to end an affair and fix a marriage but promoting violence will not be permitted on the forum hence a 30 day ban.


In all fairness to Mach, the OP was the one that wanted violence against the OM. Mach was just obliging him. I assume the OP is also banned?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

bandit.45 said:


> Switching gears here....
> 
> I was surfing the wayard section of SI last night, and what struck me was the threads from the female way wards.
> 
> ...


Well ... that makes me pretty downright angry.

I remember long after our fallout and the dust had settled, I'm talking years, to be clear; we were having a bit of a heart to heart and my ex-wife said to me through tears, "You abandoned me. You abandoned us."

I knew that was her emotional truth. No amount of my railing, ranting, calmly pointing out, or picking her up and shaking her was going to make her see otherwise.

It also under no circumstances means that her perspective is the correct one. It just happens to be hers.

I didn't get defensive. Didn't laugh ... wanted to though. I hugged her, which she appreciated. All the while knowing full well under the same circumstances I'd make the choice to 'abandon' her, or any woman again.

I've read often about a wayward being 'thankful' that their affair gets discovered. Wow ...

Very interesting post, Bandit. Makes me angry to be honest. I understand that may be the very thing they want ... but it's still bullsh!t on their behalf.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Rubicon said:


> Interesting, This mindset is exactly the opposite of what we recommend as a group. While I relate 100% and agree with what you say as I also would never report a post as I don`t get offended personally by anything a stranger on the internet might say, I know here the concept of exposure and confronting is a pillar of advice given to almost all new members.
> 
> The whole concept of Ratting is a tactic to intimidate someone into helping another get away with breaking the rules. That's why it`s biggest supporters are people locked in prisons, they hate rats because someone being open and honest might get them put in jail.
> 
> ...


A thoughtful response that is more logical really than mine.

Perhaps its an aspect of my character I should reconsider. As a kid my dad used to always tell me to "never rat someone out unless your life is at stake- only you can earn yourself respect". Since I respected him, I took it onboard as part of my character.

And I see what you mean about it being used against you. I have been in a few situations where an authority figure knew I knew something, but I wouldnt tell them- I ended up with severe punishment while the guy I wouldnt inform on got away with it.

Have you ever seen the movie "Scent of a Woman" with Al Pacino? If not, it has to do with this subject (among other subjects); its also one of Pacino's finest acting sessions. Anyways, I guess that movie really sums up my position on this subject- its more of a feeling than a logical choice.

Again, perhaps I need to rethink my stance..


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Coffee Amore said:


> There's nothing wrong with reporting a post you think may be questionable. It's not the mafia here. You're not ratting on anyone. When a report is made, all the mods can take a look at said post then make a decision. There are people who make frequent reports and there are others who only report once in a great while. The reports are treated the same way. Moderators can't be in every thread and read every post, so we count on posters to report things that may have crossed the line. It's sort of like a civic duty as a participant of this message board.


I do believe mods have good intentions, and my unwillingness to report is not meant as way to slight your efforts or compare you to the mafia 

Its an ingrained ideal preached since my childhood. In fact, im so accustomed to thinking in a "dont rat out someone" mentality that im not sure I have the right mindset at this point to involve myself in reporting someone.

Anyways, my intent was to make it known that some people have the "dont rat someone out" mentality- not argue on its behalf


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

vellocet said:


> In all fairness to Mach, the OP was the one that wanted violence against the OM. Mach was just obliging him. I assume the OP is also banned?


Actually Mach did. Post #120. If you can prove me wrong go ahead and PM me and I'll take a look. This thread does not need to be side tracked further.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> Actually Mach did. Post #120. If you can prove me wrong go ahead and PM me and I'll take a look. This thread does not need to be side tracked further.


I'm going by what you said. You said the poster was looking to beat the **** out of the other man and Mach chimed in.

And I did read post 120, didn't see anything in there and he even said he doesn't "recommend it". Whatever "it" is.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> Actually Mach did. Post #120. If you can prove me wrong go ahead and PM me and I'll take a look. * This thread does not need to be side tracked further*.


And on the bolded part, ok. Its dropped as far as Mach.

But it still is related to the current state of CWI. Kind of a vague premise from the get go though.


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## Rubicon (Jan 13, 2014)

I saw "Scent of a Woman" when I was a teen, I most likely was too immature at the time to get the finer points of the movie, it's now on my list to watch again.

We should note the difference between being a "Rat" and perhaps a "Tattle Tale" 

If the info being divulged is something that greatly effects someone's wellbeing, be it emotionally, physically or economically, Then I think choosing to stand by your principals by letting the cat out of the bag can be the honorable thing to do.

However wearing out your mouse button on the "report a post" link every time someone posts Shlt or Motherfvcker makes you just as annoying as those posting it are to some. 

You call me a rat and I'll come back and call you out for being the bully your trying to be, if you point out I'm being a little tattle tale, I'll most likely be embarrassed.

OptimisticPessimist, your dad taught you not to be a tattle tale, that's a valuable life lesson. I wouldn't rethink that. It makes you know when not to be petty and to only provide honest information when the stakes are really high.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Switching gears here....
> 
> 
> Because their BHs refused to hold them accountable, didn't want the details, wanted to rug sweep the whole thing. These women say they were practically begging their BHs to confront them, yell at them...give them some kind of consequence TO SHOW THEM THAT THEIR HUSBANDS CARED ABOUT THEM AND WANTED TO LEAD THEIR WIVES INTO RECONCILIATION. By not having the hammer lowered on them, they felt their husbands didn't give a crap about them or the marriage.
> ...


:iagree: YES! YES! YES! 



bandit.45 said:


> Kinda flies in the face of all these posters who have come on here advocating soft love, don't confront, don't monitor, don't levy consequences....
> 
> Very interesting.



There is a huge difference between "soft love" and "consequences." "Real" love, on the part of both spouses, is what is going to be an absolute necessity if a successful reconciliation becomes the desired outcome of both spouses. Yes, a BS absolutely has, not only the need, but the right to confront and monitor their WS in order to even begin to be able to rebuild a level of trust that they can live with. A truly remorseful WS, who desires reconciliation, will not wait for their BS to "levy consequences," but will proactively seek ways to help their BS heal. 

B1 never really needed to make demands. Once we both chose to attempt to build a new relationship, together, I willingly did everything that I could possibly think of to help him heal. I always use my debit card, instead of cash, so that there is a record and a time stamp. I save receipts for everything so that there is a paper trial/record/time stamp of my errands and activities. 

I have one girlfriend who I have dinner with about 3 - 4 times a year. As soon as I leave the house, I start taking pictures of myself, the restaurant, my girlfriend, and the surroundings. B1 never asked me to do that. I love him. I would much rather him not have to ask. If he needs something that I am not doing for him, then I want him to ask, but I strive to successfully meet his need for security before he has to ask. If I think he is troubled about something, I don't avoid him, hoping that he won't bring it up. I ask him what he's thinking about, how he's feeling, what he needs, and how I might be able to help him. 

When we chose to rebuild our marriage, and our life, together, we both made a brand new commitment to one another and to our relationship. If B1 constantly felt the need to "levy additional consequences," then I'm probably not doing enough to help him heal. That could be indicative that I am not 100% committed to rebuilding our marriage. If B1 admits that I am doing everything that I can possibly do to help him, and he still feels the need to "levy additional consequences," then that might be indicative that he is not 100% committed to rebuilding our marriage. In either of those scenarios, we would each have to decide if remaining in the marriage was the right decision for ourselves.

Consequences are a natural "consequence" of infidelity. If used correctly, they can be a tool to help rebuild trust and a mutually satisfying relationship for both spouses. If a BS develops a sense of entitlement to levy unnecessary consequences for the sole purpose of punishing a WS, then they are no longer being used as a heathy part of reconciliation.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

EI said:


> :iagree: YES! YES! YES!
> 
> There is a huge difference between "soft love" and "consequences." "Real" love, on the part of both spouses, is what is going to be an absolute necessity if a successful reconciliation becomes the desired outcome of both spouses. Yes, a BS absolutely has, not only the need, but the right to confront and monitor their WS in order to even begin to be able to rebuild a level of trust that they can live with. A truly remorseful WS, who desires reconciliation, will not wait for their BS to "levy consequences," but will proactively seek ways to help their BS heal.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. The difference from the topic at hand, IMO, is that you actually accepted the responsibility for your own choice - it's a looong time ago, when you couldn't avoid using the "but...", remember?

What I see often these days are, that there's a rise in posters who perceive the infidelity as a case of linear cause-effect, which I guess would be OK, if only they wouldn't leave out the *free choices* in between. I know from my own experience that it's hard to take responsibilty for ones choices, but it can be done.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

cpacan said:


> I agree with this. The difference from the topic at hand, IMO, is that you actually accepted the responsibility for your own choice - it's a looong time ago, when you couldn't avoid using the "but...", remember?
> 
> What I see often these days are, that there's a rise in posters who perceive the infidelity as a case of linear cause-effect, which I guess would be OK, if only they wouldn't leave out the *free choices* in between. I know from my own experience that it's hard to take responsibilty for ones choices, but it can be done.


Not really a linear cause and effect but a series of events where the relationship made it easier to run through the normal checks and balances.

Everyone is responsible for choices, that has never been a debate.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

EI said:


> :iagree: YES! YES! YES!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of the better exchanges in a long time.

None of us disagree but we get lost in words and emotions.

No one supports affairs, no one says they are justified. We are just trying to help when they do happen and they do.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

jim123 said:


> Not really a linear cause and effect but a series of events where the relationship made it easier to run through the normal checks and balances.
> 
> Everyone is responsible for choices,* that has never been a debate.*


No? Everytime someone says "You neglected me and it was the reason I cheated" and the alike - that's cause and effect with the free choice in between removed. No free choice, no personal responsibility.

If you haven't seen this occur in any debates lately, I'll be happy to direct you to some of them, I think there are plenty to pick from.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Rubicon said:


> The whole concept of Ratting is a tactic to intimidate someone into helping another get away with breaking the rules. That's why it`s biggest supporters are people locked in prisons, they hate rats because someone being open and honest might get them put in jail.
> 
> Would we ever tell a BS not to expose to the OWH or OMW.
> 
> Of course not. That's rug sweeping.


I agree about "ratting out". I don't agree about exposure. In my opinion exposure is right in about 85% of the cases, but not in the remaining 15%.

Why? One doesn't know the home situation of the OM or OW. It could be very difficult if the spouse is in a delicate mental condition, or ill, or whatever.

And I think that the BS has to think about what he or she gains by such exposure. If the answer is revenge (and it frequently is) the question is "will hurting the OM's or OW's spouse really give any satisfaction?"

So for me many of these things are a matter of assessing the actual situation before recommending any drastic action. I know not everyone agrees with my position, but it IS my position.

PS: Rubicon, I didn't mean to cross you.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

cpacan said:


> No? Everytime someone says "You neglected me and it was the reason I cheated" and the alike - that's cause and effect with the free choice in between removed. No free choice, no personal responsibility.
> 
> If you haven't seen this occur in any debates lately, I'll be happy to direct you to some of them, I think there are plenty to pick from.


I don't think one can expect somebody to detail all the reasons why they behaved as they did.

For instance, a common theme is the wife (could also be a husband) who feels ignored at home, disrespected, and who has a lousy sex life. The wife has tried to talk to the husband who ignores her.

So she starts to talk to friends and acquaintances about her problems. One thing leads to another and an EA starts. And with a little pushing becomes a PA.

Why does the wife take that chance? Because with her husband ignoring her she feels that he'll not only not find out, if he does he won't care.

Does this justify the affair? OF COURSE NOT! But it does tend to explain it.

So trouble ensues and the wife comes to TAM and says that the reason for her affair is that she felt ignored. That's not the entire story and anyone with any sense realizes that.

For her trouble, the wife gets told on TAM that she did wrong (she knows that) and that she should have gotten a divorce instead. She replies that she doesn't want a divorce. Her husband is a good provider and good with the kids and she doesn't want to break up her home.

And then she gets it in the neck from a number of us who feel that she's cake eating, wanting it both ways, is a hoe, and so on.

The result is that many women stop posting in CWI altogether. Their stories are most often found in other areas such as "General Relationship", "The Ladies Lounge", and so on.

My story above is not a true story taken from life. But I've seen all of those elements here and, I suspect, so have you, if you are still reading this far down into my post.

So my opinion as to what is wrong with CWI? I think we are too quick off the mark, assume that the WS is an idiot and that the BS has had no part whatsoever in the shipwreck that his marriage has become.

Please note that I am NOT SAYING that the BS is responsible for the affair. I've never seen anyone write that. I am saying that the affair is just the visible part of the tumor that has grown on the marriage. And we here have to help deal with it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

sidney2718 said:


> So my opinion as to what is wrong with CWI? I think we are too quick off the mark, assume that the WS is an idiot and that the BS has had no part whatsoever in the shipwreck that his marriage has become.


I disagree. The often repeated mantra here is, that the BS and WS are both responsible for 50% of the state of the marriage before the affair. This has been repeated ad infinitum here. The WS is 100% responsible for the cheating. That's why this particular forum is called Coping With Infidelity, and not Coping with marital problems before infidelity. The immediate needs here are for BS dealing with the initial shock and coping strategies for dealing with infidelity, be that investigation, separation, divorce, or reconciliation.

Whatever the faults the BS has, they work on during R, if there is an R, or they work on before their next relationship.

To say members here regard BSs as saints is ignorance.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

lordmayhem said:


> I disagree. The often repeated mantra here is, that the BS and WS are both responsible for 50% of the state of the marriage before the affair. This has been repeated ad infinitum here. The WS is 100% responsible for the cheating. That's why this particular forum is called Coping With Infidelity, and not Coping with marital problems before infidelity. The immediate needs here are for BS dealing with the initial shock and coping strategies for dealing with infidelity, be that investigation, separation, divorce, or reconciliation.
> 
> Whatever the faults the BS has, they work on during R, if there is an R, or they work on before their next relationship.
> 
> To say members here regard BSs as saints is ignorance.


I mostly agree with this. In practice folks often ask if they should try to R. My point is that such a question can't be answered without looking at the whole marriage. 

And I agree that the BS and the WS are both responsible for the state of the marriage before the affair.

So I suspect we are closer in thought than it may look at first glance.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

sidney2718 said:


> I mostly agree with this. In practice folks often ask if they should try to R. My point is that such a question can't be answered without looking at the whole marriage.
> 
> And I agree that the BS and the WS are both responsible for the state of the marriage before the affair.
> 
> So I suspect we are closer in thought than it may look at first glance.


The thing is, there are quite a few BS's here, while in their state of shock and denial, try to justify their WS's affair or they blame themselves, and it usually goes something like this:

"I wasn't the perfect husband..."
"I neglected her..."
"I didn't do all that I should have..."

And this self blame is what many members try to get the BS out of that mindset. Yes, we get it. The BS is NOT a saint and did stuff or neglected the marriage, or whatever. But that's not the point. The point is dealing with/coping with the infidelity. In many instances, members here encourage the BS to go into IC to work on their personal issues and shortcomings. That is up to the BS to work on themselves. They know what they did wrong to contribute to their 50%. What angers people here is the "Blame the victim" mentality. And yes, let's not mince words, when infidelity occurs, the BS is the victim. 

Take for example the subject of rape. Just last week, a young woman came into the station and approached me to tell me she was raped and wanted to report it. Unfortunately, too much time had elapsed to do a rape kit at a hospital, because she was too ashamed and blamed herself for being raped. She knew the guy. Yes, she agreed to meet him for drinks. Yes, she went accompanied him to his apartment and became extremely intoxicated. When he tried to kiss her, she told him no, and when he was pulling off her shorts and he penetrated her vaginally and anally, she kept saying no and crying until he stopped. Did she deserve to get raped? Of course not! Is she a saint? Of course not! Did she contribute to the situation? Yes, she did, but she didn't deserve to get raped. 

And that's what angers me and others. The blame the victim mentality that some here have.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> The thing is, there are quite a few BS's here, while in their state of shock and denial, try to justify their WS's affair or they blame themselves, and it usually goes something like this:
> 
> "I wasn't the perfect husband..."
> "I neglected her..."
> ...


Could'nt have said it better 

What a good post

We often see pages and pages of good points either way but the reality of this stuff is in these few words above

Just to add the placement of who IS the 'victim' is the disturbing thing I see more and more of in CWI. I look at things on here and start to think once again, almost a trigger I s'pose, 'yea yea and mmm I spose it was probably me that caused it'

Takes me about ten seconds to irritatingly kick myself and exclaim to myself .......Yeah the fk it was....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think the blame the victim mentality is determined by who you think the victim is, if there is one (and there may be, as in the case of getting a disease!). To me, it is the person with less power. How do you define who has less power?

To me, it is the person with less perceived ability to effect change in a healthy way, i.e., the weaker partner. But many betrayeds here do not feel like the stronger partner for not having cheated. Some even feel cheated of the opportunity to have cheated. That was pretty stunning to read.

If you feel powerless in your marriage, it is natural you would feel like a victim. It does not mean you _are_ powerless, just that you _feel_ powerless. I think the answer is empowerment, not resentment and bitterness. 

Bottom line: Do you want to solve the problem, and heal? Or do you simply want to carry the banner of the moral high ground, for not having cheated, even if in your heart, you would have liked the opportunity to cheat?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

jld said:


> I think the blame the victim mentality is determined by who you think the victim is, if there is one (and there may be, as in the case of getting a disease!). To me, it is the person with less power. How do you define who has less power?
> 
> To me, it is the person with less perceived ability to effect change in a healthy way, i.e., the weaker partner. But many betrayeds here do not feel like the stronger partner for not having cheated. Some even feel cheated of the opportunity to have cheated. That was pretty stunning to read.
> 
> ...


I didn't even know, my marriage was supposed to be a power struggle - I guess I just never thought of it that way, but maybe you're right.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I didn't even know, my marriage was supposed to be a power struggle - I guess I just never thought of it that way, but maybe you're right.


I did not say it was supposed to be, or that it is. People have told me that many marriages are power struggles, though. I can tell you that mine is not.

I do believe that power dynamics exist in every relationship. Some are more equal, some quite polarized. Polarized can be very satisfying, depending upon the dynamic between the partners.


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## Mr. Dee (Jul 30, 2014)

On the subject of scaring away people who need help, and posters running away mid-story etc, here's something about forums generally. Specifically a non CWI one, but the lessons learned can apply here too.

I was a WH. Here's what happened, my ex AP went batsh** crazy after dday, stalking my wife. (Police involved). Wife joined a couple forums, and said it really helped her. Stalking increased, (xAP broke into our home when we were out, later joined w's forums, posted insults and taunting to all w's posts.) When W began to suspect what was going on, she asked admins to have her posts deleted to limit the personal things that stalker could connect to her. (a user couldn't delete their own posts on that one). BUT the admins took offense and got all indignant, saying that she was implying that THEY were not trustworthy. :scratchhead: Wife tried to explain the risk she was in; forum admin bashed her for not appreciating them, sent her some huffy PM's, and banned her. Now she couldn't even PM her friends.

This really hurt her. I mean, she's got a crazy beetch harassing her, and now her so-called support group tells her they're _insulted_ by her need for extra vigilance. 

So my post here is sort of food for thought. A username is not just a fictional story who may or may not fit in with the group: it's a real person who may have big problems to solve, and may not know how/ or be able to ask for help the "right way'. When someone is banned from a support group it might have real world damage to the user. So please all, remember that before taking things personally when it's NOT. 

Try to think, if the person really needs help and you ban them or call them a troll, where else might they be able to go? If you might be their last straw, maybe give them the benefit of a doubt and try one more time to be understanding instead. It's easy to hit a "ban him/her" button and think it's not real, but for someone else it may be.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Only problem Mr. Dee, is that sometimes it IS a fictional story. We deal with that quite a little bit.

Not implying that is the case with your post, it's a great reminder of to what kind of crazy and tragic places infidelity can take your life, or the lives of those you care about.

Don't imagine that your wife/ex-wife would run into that kind of issue here. The moderators here are quite brilliant and rather amazing from what I've seen.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Don't imagine that your wife/ex-wife would run into that kind of issue here. The moderators here are quite brilliant and rather amazing from what I've seen.


And modest too


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Don't imagine that your wife/ex-wife would run into that kind of issue here. *The moderators here are quite brilliant and rather amazing from what I've seen.*


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

3putt said:


>


OMG that's brilliant ! LOL

Is that the scene when she is doing the automatic pilot ?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

It’s really pretty simple; If they cheated, they are horrible and you must want to end that relationship to find anyone to tell you that you are doing the right thing. Most won’t even read the whole thread; That they cheated is enough to provide them the answer to your ‘what now?’ question. It is divorce. Extra likes if you go nuclear on them. 

Should also note the Reconciled or reconciling crowd has no new members in years that started here on DD; at least I can’t think of one…. Basically, if you come here torn up at this new discovery, there are a ton of people here that will advise you how to end that marriage with flair. There aren’t very many that might help you reconcile and that difficult path; We’re the soft ones, doormats, in denial, or ____(insert personal issue we haven’t resolved)__ _right? And that’s simply the current state. More run off thinking about R, more inducted into D being "the only real solution"...


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

barbados said:


> OMG that's brilliant ! LOL
> 
> Is that the scene when she is doing the automatic pilot ?


It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it is.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Racer said:


> More run off thinking about R, more inducted into D being "the only real solution"...


No offense here, but your case would be one I would point to to argue against reconciliation.

From the outside looking in, your situation *seems* so bad, that it probably turns off a few people from considering R by itself. Without knowing all the internal dynamics, which no one but you or your wife does, it just sounds like misery.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Ripper said:


> *No offense here*, but your case would be one I would point to to argue against reconciliation.
> 
> From the outside looking in, your situation *seems* so bad, that it probably turns off a few people from considering R by itself. *Without knowing all the internal dynamics*, which no one but you or your wife does, it just sounds like misery.


Yet you felt qualified enough to comment anyway. Speculating for no apparent reason, and doing exactly what the person you responded to pointed out as being problematic (people invalidating R and feeling justified in doing so).


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Racer said:


> It’s really pretty simple; If they cheated, they are horrible and you must want to end that relationship to find anyone to tell you that you are doing the right thing. Most won’t even read the whole thread; That they cheated is enough to provide them the answer to your ‘what now?’ question. It is divorce.
> 
> More run off thinking about R, more inducted into D being "the only real solution"...



I believe there is a fair amount of "group think" that occurs on any message board community. What I think may be happening in the scenario you've outlined is that people often wish they had handled things differently, to be stronger or tougher than they actually were.

People often purposely misremember how they handled something if it wasn't as ideal as they would have liked. I believe we're all like that to some degree. There are instances in my life that I have felt I handled poorly. If I were in a position to offer advice, well it would almost always be advice of what I think I should have done rather than what I may have actually done. 

I may even misrepresent the situation to the person, particularly if what I really did made me appear less than flattering. Oftentimes people aren't as strong as they'd like others to believe but it may not be represented as such.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Ripper said:


> No offense here, but your case would be one I would point to to argue against reconciliation.
> 
> From the outside looking in, your situation *seems* so bad, that it probably turns off a few people from considering R by itself. Without knowing all the internal dynamics, which no one but you or your wife does, it just sounds like misery.


True... It's why I have that story. R isn't easy. It also doesn't become a 'unicorns and rainbows' like you might find when the D is complete. It takes a long f'n time to R; Worse the story, longer the R... hence why mine looks horrendous and the divorce crowd always looks happier. I envy that they got to close that book and start writing a new one. I’m happy to shatter those dreams of overnight reconciliations for the fantasy they are. There isn’t a “take back” for infidelity; Real creatures were harmed and scarred for life in the creation of this story.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Mostlycontent said:


> I believe there is a fair amount of "group think" that occurs on any message board community. What I think may be happening in the scenario you've outlined is that people often wish they had handled things differently, to be stronger or tougher than they actually were.
> ....


Agreed..
Also add to it that a lot are also trying to reconcile inside that they made the absolute right choice. So if it was D, they will defend that as the right thing to do in this situation. They don't want to question it, want to be right, to do the right thing, and move on. So when faced with another way (not at all implying anyone should do what I did), it is devalued as a 'lesser choice'.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Racer said:


> It’s really pretty simple; If they cheated, they are horrible and you must want to end that relationship to find anyone to tell you that you are doing the right thing. Most won’t even read the whole thread; That they cheated is enough to provide them the answer to your ‘what now?’ question. It is divorce. Extra likes if you go nuclear on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Should also note the Reconciled or reconciling crowd has no new members in years that started here on DD; at least I can’t think of one…. Basically, if you come here torn up at this new discovery, there are a ton of people here that will advise you how to end that marriage with flair. There aren’t very many that might help you reconcile and that difficult path; We’re the soft ones, doormats, in denial, or ____(insert personal issue we haven’t resolved)__ _right? And that’s simply the current state. More run off thinking about R, more inducted into D being "the only real solution"...



I'm all for R, even tried it once. The key is both parties need to want it. When it's obvious the cheater wants to rugs weep it gets called out for what it is.

Yes, the TAM crowd can be harsh on a WS when they post. I bet a lot of good people in the WS are tough on them when they find out. That's a consequence of cheating. People will lose trust in what you say when you lie. That trust must be earned back. Very few WS have the stomach for it. 

But some do, there are a couple WS here that have my respect. They earned it.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Racer said:


> So when faced with another way (not at all implying anyone should do what I did), it is devalued as a 'lesser choice'.


I couldn't reconcile a PA, its an alien concept to me. That doesn't mean that I see reconciliation as a "lesser choice". It would just be hypocritical to champion something that I couldn't/wouldn't do. Others can carry the flag for that cause.

We all float our own opinions on this site. People come here predisposed towards R or D and one group offers opinions on how to proceed while the other offers their opinions on why the other option should be considered. Its up to the individual to make that decision. 

P.S.
Looking at the time stamps, I'm guessing Paladin is following me around being condescending again. I love that guy, but he needs to get over being so infatuated with me.


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## Mr. Dee (Jul 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> ...
> Not implying that is the case with your post, *it's a great reminder of to what kind of crazy and tragic places infidelity can take your life, or the lives of those you care about*.
> 
> I Don't imagine that your wife/ex-wife would run into that kind of issue here. The moderators here are quite brilliant and rather amazing from what I've seen.


:iagree: You are so correct, she was a member here first and was NOT treated that way by CWI. She did have to leave though, because my xOW found her identity and so W couldn't write here. 

(W went from thinking, "this user is rude" to, "this user is specifically rude to my threads", to "how does this user know these details?", to knowing "this user IS his xOW". W spent a lot of time stressing over how that happened, trying different usernames herself, deleting her posts, and moving to the other non CWI forum, but xOW kept stalking her. That's when she got scared, asked for help from those admins, and got banned for I guess sounding like a paranoid troll. It was only later we found out the xOW had been accessing our house and computer.)

Back to my point, which actually our MC made and got me wanting to write this when I saw this discussion about heavy handed reactions scaring away posters. People posting here are fragile and could use a "benefit of the doubt" approach. Victims of stupidity like mine need friends and understanding. They have PTSD. If you feel like posting confrontations and putdowns instead, maybe take a deep breath first? My w said CWI really helped her. That's why she tried the other board after. When they reacted as they did, it made her cry to lose her "friends". As if I hadn't given her enough reason to cry myself.  

So yeah, non-understanding responses that make someone cry is not a way to encourage them to stay and ask you for more help. Don't know how often it happens here, but I can tell you it happens.


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

So, you're complaining because you're not being entertained enough by people's misery?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Ripper said:


> I couldn't reconcile a PA, its an alien concept to me. That doesn't mean that I see reconciliation as a "lesser choice". It would just be hypocritical to champion something that I couldn't/wouldn't do. Others can carry the flag for that cause.
> 
> We all float our own opinions on this site. People come here predisposed towards R or D and one group offers opinions on how to proceed while the other offers their opinions on why the other option should be considered. Its up to the individual to make that decision.
> 
> ...


I try to do it on a case-by-case basis. 

Not everyone who has been cheated on would benefit from a divorce, but not everyone who has been cheated on would benefit from a reconciliation.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> I try to do it on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> Not everyone who has been cheated on would benefit from a divorce, but not everyone who has been cheated on would benefit from a reconciliation.


Wise you are, yoda.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Wise you are, yoda.


Wise? Maybe. More likely it's my basic level counselling qualification?:rofl:

Though I am beefing it up with further qualifications in counselling. I figured it would help here.


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## Whip Morgan (May 26, 2011)

Sometimes it can be the other way around in terms of "groupthink". Here, some have commented the theme is to divorce, and R is weakness. Over on SI, the theme is R is the course to follow. There is a currently an "epic" thread of a BH/WW combo that are posting. The BH has experienced several DDays and recently discovered his WW's journal where she wrote in detail how much she enjoyed cheating on her BH, and she kept this journal the entire time they were in "R". He found it recently. I decided to join and post because I felt this guy was getting steamrolled and felt the need to post and share my thoughts, just like everyone else on any board does. I didn't share my story, but have posted some details here. 

Anyway, a mod banned me from SI, because I seemed to be the only one encouraging him not to buy the absolute nonsense that is the "fog" that is so commonly used with I fidelity. Unfortunately, because the WW is also on SI and apparently saying the right things, even though she has proven time and again she is a cheater, the mods didn't like my opinion and banned me. Each board has it's own groupthink, and I don't see it changing. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can get out of hand to a point where it doesn't help people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Whip Morgan said:


> Sometimes it can be the other way around in terms of "groupthink". Here, some have commented the theme is to divorce, and R is weakness. Over on SI, the theme is R is the course to follow. There is a currently an "epic" thread of a BH/WW combo that are posting. The BH has experienced several DDays and recently discovered his WW's journal where she wrote in detail how much she enjoyed cheating on her BH, and she kept this journal the entire time they were in "R". He found it recently. I decided to join and post because I felt this guy was getting steamrolled and felt the need to post and share my thoughts, just like everyone else on any board does. I didn't share my story, but have posted some details here.
> 
> Anyway, a mod banned me from SI, because I seemed to be the only one encouraging him not to buy the absolute nonsense that is the "fog" that is so commonly used with I fidelity. Unfortunately, because the WW is also on SI and apparently saying the right things, even though she has proven time and again she is a cheater, the mods didn't like my opinion and banned me. Each board has it's own groupthink, and I don't see it changing. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can get out of hand to a point where it doesn't help people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've seen that many times on SI, where the WW/WH is on their too in the OM/OW forum, therefore other posters are NOT allowed to speak their mind. Remember, SI is run by a cheater...deeplyscared or something like that. She runs the site out of her apartment in Canada from what I hear.

Yeah, the massive group think is "R no matter what" there. Perhaps some of the crowd here would like to migrate there since it fits their mindset.

I believe in R if the situation isn't too severe and IF and only IF the WS has earned that shot at R and continues to earn it. R is a precious, precious gift from the BS, not the other way around.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

bandit.45 said:


> Yes.
> 
> But no one sticks around anymore. They solve their issues or quit and leave. Sometimes they leave us hanging.


Ya thats me...I'm one that doesn't like to stick around.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

BTW...the way Gus is posting he just might catch up with my post count.:lol:


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## Whip Morgan (May 26, 2011)

I personally am thankful I found TAM. several years ago I came here to help a friend. Later it helped me when my later fiancée (now ex) cheated on me. It helped me, and others. It may not help all posters, but I think if it doesn't , it's usually when the poster is hearing things that they don't want to. Denial, I suppose. 

I've read some posts from people on SI, both cheaters and betrayed, and I think there are some good people over there. Unfortunately It doesn't seem to matter if you're going against the current. There, if you dare mention the fact that the "fog" is a bullsh*t term and idea, some people freak out. I got banned because I was presenting an idea that wasn't popular. These are Internet forums-not everyone has the same opinions... Frustrating. I feel bad for that BH poster over there. The cheerleader squad his WW has garnered isn't doing him any favors
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Dee (Jul 30, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> I believe in R if the situation isn't too severe and IF and only IF the WS has earned that shot at R and continues to earn it. *R is a precious, precious gift from the BS*, not the other way around.


Amen brother. 

:allhail:


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## Mr. Dee (Jul 30, 2014)

Thorburn said:


> ...
> I remember the one young man who was talking about suicide and he never responded. I still think about him. Did he kill himself?
> 
> For me it would be nice to know how the person resolved it.
> ...


That's another thing my W and I have discussed since dday!! If someone goes to a counsellor and admits they'd rather kill themselves, the counsellor has to record this and report to some higher authorities, and the person risks getting locked up for psych issues. It also goes on some bigger record, I've heard of people being banned from international travel because somehow the border guards had access to such records and refused the person entry (excuse: in case they were a suicide bomber or something).

Even when you join a forum like this, there is usually some disclaimer that if you start writing suicidal things they will trace your IP and report to authorities.

I see this as cover-your-ass behavior on the part of the forum owner and/or counsellor. So they can claim they did all they must. But where does that really leave the miserable soul? It can leave them with nobody to actually discuss their feelings with safely. If you can't mention it in complete confidence to a counsellor, or to an anonymous support forum, all that leaves is bottle it up and tell nobody. And from what I've learned of PTSD etc, the only way out is talking it out, not bottling.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

> *The Current State of CWI *


The current state? Here is the current state. BSs start a thread. It could be to vent, or anything else.

WSs with justification, throw it in their face excuses will come into the thread....arguments ensue, thread gets closed quickly.

THAT seems to be the current state of CWI.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> I've seen that ..... R is a precious, precious gift from the BS, not the other way around.


You could have fooled me..


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> 1 - Switching gears here....
> 
> I was surfing the wayard section of SI last night, and what struck me was the threads from the female way wards.
> 
> ...





Deejo said:


> 2 - Well ... that makes me pretty downright angry.
> 
> I remember long after our fallout and the dust had settled, I'm talking years, to be clear; we were having a bit of a heart to heart and my ex-wife said to me through tears, "You abandoned me. You abandoned us."
> 
> ...


1 - It's more interesting until you realize, _"yeah, I was one of those idiots who did that"_
Well, in a way.
Wife had separated from me and continued to see OM, and instead of 'doing something', I tried to play it cool and wait things out to see if it fizzled out.
Tried to be the Big Man.
Tried to show I was okay.
Tried to convince myself wife and OM weren't involved before she left me.
Tried to make life hard for wife and OM.
5 months I sucked it up like a doormat, looking after kids most weekends while she stayed at OM's.
They just carried on.

Then I joined TAM, got tons of 2x4s, good advice, lots of 'Broscience' and the smoke cleared.
My wife confirmed this late last year when she told me what hurt her most about me while she was seeing OM...was the fact I acted so indifferent to it and didn't care...that she gave me chances to 'do something'.
_"Actions...not words"_ was what she used to say.
My reply was that what she did and her seeing her OM had 'paralyzed' me.
So, yeah, you're 100% right.

2 - Yep, same.
But why does this make you _that _angry Deejo?


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

vellocet said:


> The current state? Here is the current state. BSs start a thread. It could be to vent, or anything else.
> 
> WSs with justification, throw it in their face excuses will come into the thread....arguments ensue, thread gets closed quickly.
> 
> THAT seems to be the current state of CWI.


That's because, in my opinion, some of the WSs are narcissists, and see every post relating to the BS's anger at their own individual pain as a reflection of them, so they get defensive. "It's all about me" is the mindset of a narcissist and every word posted about a generic WS must mean that the poster is condemning them personally. 

My Ex is a narcissist, and I have learned to easily spot the characteristics now. Your pain as a BS is insignificant and unimportant because the narcissist must take center stage. You must put your pain on the back burner and allow the narcissist to "have the floor", and you must treat them gently and with respect, even though you are hurting by their insensitive words. You can't "call them out on their bull" because that's being mean, no matter how truthful your observation might be. You must recognize their pain (because they are narcissists) and set your own pain aside as second to theirs.

And the real sad thing about it is that leaves people like you, or myself, or other BS with no "voice", walking on eggshells and "pulling our punches" because we cannot express our own honest opinions and thoughts because it really seems that those WSs simply do not care. We can't ask the "hard" question in order to honestly understand the mindset of a WS. They are important (narcissists). We are not. 

Our pain is neither real or important (to them). Our questions are not answered because we cannot ask the question in a way that suits their egos. Our dialog is effectively shut down by these narcissists.

Even though my marriage is over, I still seek answers and while I do believe that an honest WS may be able to provide insight, their ego's will simply not allow for a completely honest and informative conversation. I still read some of the threads here at CWI and respond when I can, but sadly for my own personal growth and understanding I feel that I will always be blocked by a "narcissist" and find that a shame.

And I feel for their spouses. I was there. I was married to a narcissist. There is no relief from having everything "revolve around them". It is liberating and wonderful to have that behind me. That may very well be the lesson I am learning now from these egotistical narcissists. Never again.


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## Whip Morgan (May 26, 2011)

Thought-provoking post, Bandit. But how does a BS navigate that slippery slope? It seems to easy to fall I to the trap of fighting to keep someone that is not worth keeping. I would not want to stay with a cheater who believes I have to do all the work to fight for the relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

There are a handful of posters who prefer ad hominem attacks. 

For just stating my *opinions*, I have been accused of being a "bitter misogynist". Stuck and "can't get over the infidelity" That I'm not "qualified to comment". I'm "speculating for no apparent reason". That I'm wasting my time because "not really a lot of people listen to me and it pi$$es me off". That I need "to grow up" and quit posting because it "offends." I think I might have even been accused of having a little penis, its hard to keep up with it all.

Most of the garbage above is handed out by just a couple of posters. These are also the posters that "survivorwife" pointed out and have to be handled with kid gloves. If you call them on their bullsh*t, you get reported or they have a melt down and storm off. I find it hilarious, but do feel sorry for the people in their orbit.

The majority on this site (both wayward and betrayed) are just trying to get a handle on things and can handle differing opinions. The others I have learned can't be heard over the "ignore" button.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Ripper said:


> There are a handful of posters who prefer ad hominem attacks.
> 
> For just stating my *opinions*, I have been accused of being a "bitter misogynist". Stuck and "can't get over the infidelity" That I'm not "qualified to comment". I'm "speculating for no apparent reason". That I'm wasting my time because "not really a lot of people listen to me and it pi$$es me off". That I need "to grow up" and quit posting because it "offends." I think I might have even been accused of having a little penis, its hard to keep up with it all.
> 
> ...


It's okay, Ripper....I have too.


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## SolidSnake (Dec 6, 2011)

Ripper said:


> There are a handful of posters who prefer ad hominem attacks.
> 
> For just stating my *opinions*, I have been accused of being a "bitter misogynist". Stuck and "can't get over the infidelity" That I'm not "qualified to comment". I'm "speculating for no apparent reason". That I'm wasting my time because "not really a lot of people listen to me and it pi$$es me off". That I need "to grow up" and quit posting because it "offends." I think I might have even been accused of having a little penis, its hard to keep up with it all.
> 
> ...


If someone calls you a "bitter misogynist" that is a personal attack and against the forum rules. The report button is that little exclamation point at the lower left hand side in every post. Use it liberally.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

vellocet said:


> The current state? Here is the current state. BSs start a thread. It could be to vent, or anything else.
> 
> WSs with justification, throw it in their face excuses will come into the thread....arguments ensue, thread gets closed quickly.
> 
> THAT seems to be the current state of CWI.


What?

I'm a BS and have gone in on both sides of the argument, depending on the situation. 

We can't make blanket statements or assumptions about this complex of an issue. 

Except the one I just made *bowing deeply*


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> That's because, in my opinion, some of the WSs are narcissists, and see every post relating to the BS's anger at their own individual pain as a reflection of them, so they get defensive. "It's all about me" is the mindset of a narcissist and every word posted about a generic WS must mean that the poster is condemning them personally.
> 
> My Ex is a narcissist, and I have learned to easily spot the characteristics now. Your pain as a BS is insignificant and unimportant because the narcissist must take center stage. You must put your pain on the back burner and allow the narcissist to "have the floor", and you must treat them gently and with respect, even though you are hurting by their insensitive words. You can't "call them out on their bull" because that's being mean, no matter how truthful your observation might be. You must recognize their pain (because they are narcissists) and set your own pain aside as second to theirs.
> 
> ...


Your ex is a narcissist so all WSs are too? 

My fWW isn't. Maybe she's the exception who proves the rule here.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Ripper said:


> There are a handful of posters who prefer ad hominem attacks.
> 
> For just stating my *opinions*, I have been accused of being a "bitter misogynist". Stuck and "can't get over the infidelity" That I'm not "qualified to comment". I'm "speculating for no apparent reason". That I'm wasting my time because "not really a lot of people listen to me and it pi$$es me off". That I need "to grow up" and quit posting because it "offends." I think I might have even been accused of having a little penis, its hard to keep up with it all.
> 
> ...


I'm a BS and was called a total idiot for trying to R. 

My fWW was called a serial cheater, and I never presented any such facts. It was picked out of the blue. 

I don't know who the folks are you and SW have in mind, but brother it comes in all shapes and sizes on this site. None of us are greater or lesser than any of the rest.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> I'm a BS and was called a total idiot for trying to R.
> 
> My fWW was called a serial cheater, and I never presented any such facts. It was picked out of the blue.
> 
> I don't know who the folks are you and SW have in mind, but brother it comes in all shapes and sizes on this site. None of us are greater or lesser than any of the rest.


There are folks here, for whatever reason, who feel that the only proper way to deal with infidelity is divorce. But that's just them. Others are more nuanced and don't have a "standard answer".

As for the "made up facts", that happens. Some folks read many threads and a given thread can get to be very long. As a result their memories aren't always correct and they tend to repeat what is in their minds.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

doubletrouble said:


> Your ex is a narcissist *so all WSs are too? *
> 
> My fWW isn't. Maybe she's the exception who proves the rule here.


Nope. Didn't say that. I said *some* of the WSs are narcissists. They know who they are.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

survivorwife said:


> Nope. Didn't say that. I said *some* of the WSs are narcissists. They know who they are.


Well, I know it isn't me. I'm a BPD'er....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Ripper said:


> There are a handful of posters who prefer ad hominem attacks.
> 
> For just stating my *opinions*, I have been accused of being a "bitter misogynist". Stuck and "can't get over the infidelity" That I'm not "qualified to comment". I'm "speculating for no apparent reason". That I'm wasting my time because "not really a lot of people listen to me and it pi$$es me off". That I need "to grow up" and quit posting because it "offends." I think I might have even been accused of having a little penis, its hard to keep up with it all.
> 
> .


You "can't get over the infidelity"? How old fashioned of you. Isn't infidelity just another of life's journeys? If you expected a spouse to keep their pants/skirt/breeches/knickers on you should have had the decorum to be born in the 19th Century or something.

We all know Infidelity is quote-unquote wrong, but some spouses must explore it so that they can grow and feel as humans.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Perhaps, if WS were welcomed with kindness and, at least , an attempt at positive reinforcement and understanding, then we would all benefit from the added insight. Unfortunately, TAM has gotten into a deep rut, where WS are vilified , insulted, and belittled until they leave, thereby restricting the threads to venom soaked rants and hatemongering. When I first came here , a couple of years ago, WS could come here and receive support, as well as answers to their questions and help with reconciliation. Now, when they try to post , they receive page after page of vilification and abuse. How many times does a cheater have to hear how evil they are and how disgusting their action is. Aren't we supposed to try to help people?


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> How many times does a cheater have to hear how evil they are and how disgusting their action is.
> 
> Aren't we supposed to try to help people?


1. This is one of the main reasons I've stopped posting as much. I recall Dig making the comment that "No one has the right to treat my wife badly. She cheated on ME and not any of you". Hearing not only how horrible of a person I was, but the constant barrage of innuendo was difficult.

2. Seems a lot are only interested in helping themselves by attempting to work through their pain and can't see their "advise" as possibly hurtful.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Headspin said:


> And most of this post is absolute nonsense and drivel.
> 
> WWs are not hounded out as you say. They are often given an opportunity to explain themselves



I'll throw the BS flag on this big time HS. You have no idea how many times a WS or a BS comes here looking for answers and is jumped on by a pack of wolves only to delete their thread and move on. It happens so fast that few even know of their existence. Only a mod can see the deleted thread and the reasons for deleting it. It's pretty telling. 

TAM, a place for support, advice and understanding. I'll throw the BS flag on that one too.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Regret214 said:


> 1. This is one of the main reasons I've stopped posting as much. I recall Dig making the comment that "No one has the right to treat my wife badly. She cheated on ME and not any of you". Hearing not only how horrible of a person I was, but the constant barrage of innuendo was difficult.
> 
> 2. Seems a lot are only interested in helping themselves by attempting to work through their pain and can't see their "advise" as possibly hurtful.


Have you considered the possibility that there becomes a whole new dynamic when both the BS and WS post here at the same time and we then get both sides of the story instead of merely assisting the BS?

For me, I find myself automatically sympathizing with the BS, because that's what I have lived. There really is no defense in my opinion which could possibly help the WS, with the exception of asking "difficult" questions on behalf of the BS to help the BS determine if there is true remorse and a chance to repair the damage and become whole again. Otherwise why would the WS open themselves up to be here? Otherwise why would the BS want them here? Is it not the purpose to open up the marriage to this forum and give us a clearer picture of the issues involved in your own particular set of circumstances for discussion purposes? 

And you're right. We don't know you. We don't know your BS. Other than what we read here, you are both an anonymous couple somewhere who have to deal with the consequences of infidelity, which unfortunately by virtue of the fact that you are the WS - you caused. And I'm sorry if that sounded hurtful, but there's no way of getting around that fact.

So, although difficult words may have been directed to you as the WS from time to time, those words were directed to a WS posting here and not necessarily the person "behind the screen" because we don't know "that person". I hope that make sense. Sort of?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> I'll throw the BS flag on this big time HS. You have no idea how many times a WS or a BS comes here looking for answers and is jumped on by a pack of wolves only to delete their thread and move on. It happens so fast that few even know of their existence. Only a mod can see the deleted thread and the reasons for deleting it. It's pretty telling.
> 
> TAM, a place for support, advice and understanding. I'll throw the BS flag on that one too.


This is about the current state of CWI and from what I see I don't see what you are saying - sorry but I disagree. 

I may miss the odd one or two of that kind tat as you say are gone before they even start but generally when a ww gets on here I dont see a pack of wolves I see a few skeptics who actually hold their tongues until the builsh!t starts and then you may see some heavy critique often deservedly so 

I mean look at that 'Joe' thread. A serial cheating **** who has been specific about going after married woman ripping up kids families lives left right and centre. He could have been hung drawn and quartered that boy and from what I see deservedly so and I and a few others end up staying out of it. 

Now he's *still* in there taking criticism but begrudgingly so, I'll admit is kind of fighting his corner although on zero basis. Fair play

Now a few of waywards in here could learn from him actually - He's not whining whinging on about being lynched all the time. He's actually taken a lot of it in the chin and he has far less 'righteousness' in him than many waywards but he's not crying his way throughgh like some pathetic victim when actually he knows he's as guilty as fk 

As much as I might have dark thoughts about him at least he's not giving us a lake of tears and bullsh!t. He's in effect making some effort to own it


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> I'll throw the BS flag on this big time HS. You have no idea how many times a WS or a BS comes here looking for answers and is jumped on by a pack of wolves only to delete their thread and move on. It happens so fast that few even know of their existence. Only a mod can see the deleted thread and the reasons for deleting it. It's pretty telling.
> 
> TAM, a place for support, advice and understanding. I'll throw the BS flag on that one too.


I will disagree with you. I have found TAM to be extremely informative and supportive. Experienced posters have helped me see situations differently and offered support. Some advice I liked and some I didn't.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Have you considered the possibility that there becomes a whole new dynamic when both the BS and WS post here at the same time and we then get both sides of the story instead of merely assisting the BS?


We both posted here. Some of the comments made were:

"I honestly hope you don't reconcile" 
"You realize she was having threesomes with the OM and your friend, right"
"You know they made videos and possibly took pictures"
"5 years?? That you say you love your husband is a lie"

These things were said to me AND to Dig. On occasion someone replies now, two years later on our threads and STILL has the same mentality.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> I'll throw the BS flag on this big time HS. You have no idea how many times a WS or a BS comes here looking for answers and is jumped on by a pack of wolves only to delete their thread and move on. It happens so fast that few even know of their existence. Only a mod can see the deleted thread and the reasons for deleting it. It's pretty telling.
> 
> TAM, a place for support, advice and understanding. I'll throw the BS flag on that one too.


I agree. There is often a narrow, accepted way of viewing things, and a lot of protest for any other way.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I've been following this thread but haven't had time to comment yet. When I came to CWI a lot of the responses were over the top for my personal situation, and I came to see a lot of similar things go down in other threads. The bandwagon is pretty clear here and it tends to roll a certain way. Some people need the kick in the rear, and for others, it's probably overwhelming or even insulting.

I think some posters need to be more humble that while, yes, they may know their personal outlook on cheating and they might have seen/read a lot of things about infidelity, they ultimately do not know this other person, their wayward, or the situation.

We've come to expect the worst and perhaps even hope for it. Maybe we're bored when a story is mundane and create our own excitement, or maybe we're right when we call everything into question. I'm not saying we need to coddle people, but how about some understanding and a hint of compassion for people who are experiencing a very painful thing which many of us have been through as well?

As for waywards, to me it depends on mindset. If they're focused on themselves and they still reek of entitlement, if they're making excuses, or they are not showing the proper level of remorse: Throw them to the wolves, I say... along with the pathetic trolls that infest this place. If waywards are thoughtful and remorseful, like a few wayward posters on CWI, then their viewpoint should be as welcomed as this place will allow.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Nope. Didn't say that. I said *some* of the WSs are narcissists. They know who they are.


You have remarkable online skills as a psychologist.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> What?
> 
> I'm a BS and have gone in on both sides of the argument, depending on the situation.
> 
> We can't make blanket statements or assumptions about this complex of an issue.


It wasn't a blanket statement. That IS what has happened here recently. There are WSs who don't throw up justifications and blameshifting.

The ones of whom I speak are the ones that come into a thread started by a BS and throw up those very justifications. 

Not all WSs do this. But recently there were some that do. No blanket statement at all.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> As for waywards, to me it depends on mindset. If they're focused on themselves and they still reek of entitlement, if they're making excuses, or they are not showing the proper level of remorse: Throw them to the wolves, I say... along with the pathetic trolls that infest this place. If waywards are thoughtful and remorseful, like a few wayward posters on CWI, then their viewpoint should be as welcomed as this place will allow.


I always go back to Tears for that one as a classic example. She came on, took some real body shots, stuck it out, took the good, became, really, quite well liked. She lived through her pain here on TAM and we saw her change before our eyes. I think TAM did her some good, despite the outcome of her marriage.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> I'm a BS and was called a total idiot for trying to R.


If that happened, that was wrong. I would never call a fellow BS(or in my case xBS), any names.

However, there are a very small handful of BSs that will come in here already knowing what they want to do and are seeking validation for their choices. And that is fine. But then some of them will start to get nasty with the people that are helping them because they don't want to be told the other side. 
To which I will usually respond with something on the lines of "Ok then, you already know what you want to do, so do it. Good luck with that"

But I will forever be on the side of those betrayed. But I'm not going to sugarcoat the truth, as I see it, and tell them to do something I don't think they should do in their situation.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> There are folks here, for whatever reason, who feel that the only proper way to deal with infidelity is divorce.


And that will always be my default unless the situation tells me they should give things a shot. Its not a set in stone solution for me, just the one that fits, IMO, a majority of the time.



> But that's just them.


Correct, as are those that think the default solution should be to give it a shot at R, until something changes their mind(or not)


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps, if WS were welcomed with kindness and, at least , an attempt at positive reinforcement and understanding, then we would all benefit from the added insight.


I have not a problem with that, like the respect I have for MJA.

But when they start blaming their spouse for their decision to cheat, sorry, it isn't going to fly.




> Unfortunately, TAM has gotten into a deep rut, where WS are vilified , insulted, and belittled until they leave, thereby restricting the threads to venom soaked rants and hatemongering.


Well when we are told that its our fault we were cheated on by using their own example of pointing the finger at their spouse, we are "insulted" and it is "belittling". You don't get to punch someone in the face and expect them to curl up in the fetal position in the corner. 

Now I'll admit it gets a little too out of hand and some anger from BSs leads them to take it a little too far.

But for god's sake, think before you post. If you blame your spouse for the infidelity, don't expect it to go over well.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

vellocet said:


> *But for god's sake, think before you post. * If you blame your spouse for the infidelity, don't expect it to go over well.


Bingo, brother.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Indeed everyone should think before they post, me included.

But as to the context of my statements, that goes double for what you bolded, and the rest.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Indeed everyone should think before they post, me included.
> 
> But as to the context of my statements, that goes double for what you bolded, and the rest.


Many's the time I've posted, thought about it, edited. 

Wrong sequence.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> I always go back to Tears for that one as a classic example. She came on, took some real body shots, stuck it out, took the good, became, really, quite well liked. She lived through her pain here on TAM and we saw her change before our eyes. I think TAM did her some good, despite the outcome of her marriage.


Well yeah. But the outcome, even after all that "advice" and "sympathy" was a dismal failure for Tears. I'd not count that thread as a success.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

One more thing. I've said this before. Very often the two sides here are talking past each other.

Group A feels that infidelity is inexcusable so that there can be no real reconciliation, except in very special circumstances. Period.

Group B understands that infidelity is inexcusable, but that it is only one point in a relationship. The real question is what comes next. That is settled for Group A, but not settled for Group B.

Group B does not condone infidelity. Far from it. But folks who come to TAM usually are considering reconciliation or at least are not certain of their desire to divorce. Group A has one piece of advice for them: divorce.

Group B wants more information. More details. What was the marriage like? What drove the couple apart, and so on. As a result they may push for reconciliation.

Group A sometimes takes the Group B position as tolerating infidelity, which isn't correct.

So Group A and Group B argue. But they are not arguing about the same things.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

What I hate here is the veiled insults, particularly at BS's that want to attempt R. As if they aren't "Man" enough to walk away. It's a horrifically painful process and any BS who can face it for the previous love they had for their spouse, for their children, for their belief in "for better or worse", whatever their reason, they deserve the utmost respect for having the strength to try. And yet, they are constantly inundated with messages here that they are weak and beta, like this recent one:



Healer said:


> How any man can put that aside and still love their WW is something I will never comprehend, and *I am so very, very thankful I am not the kind of man who would allow myself to carry on with such a despicable human being.*


It's truly sad, since TAM is primarily for BS support, that you choose to perpetrate unneeded pain on each other. Everyone in this section faces a barrage of should have/could have/would have issues. It would be nice if people can find confidence in their choices without belittling those on a different path to help with self-validation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I have not a problem with that, like the respect I have for MJA.
> 
> But when they start blaming their spouse for their decision to cheat, sorry, it isn't going to fly.
> 
> ...


A little out of hand?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> What I hate here is the veiled insults, particularly at BS's that want to attempt R. As if they aren't "Man" enough to walk away. It's a horrifically painful process and any BS who can face it for the previous love they had for their spouse, for their children, for their belief in "for better or worse", whatever their reason, they deserve the utmost respect for having the strength to try. And yet, they are constantly inundated with messages here that they are weak and beta, like this recent one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like your idea, but would remind you that TAM is for MARRIAGE support, not just for BS support.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I have not a problem with that, like the respect I have for MJA.
> 
> But when they start blaming their spouse for their decision to cheat, sorry, it isn't going to fly.
> 
> ...


The same could be said about BS who believe that ALL BS's are good and ALL WS's are evil , or that affairs happen spontaneously. Both prime examples of brainlessness.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Fact is, that most WS's are normally good people placed in abnormal situations, for which they have not ever been prepared. In my own situation, my wife was an outstanding wife and mother, until approx 4 years ago. According to many venom spewers, she is now consigned to hell as a *****. Well, she isn't. If I had been able to fall in love with her again, ( I could not), I have no doubt that she would never have cheated again, because of all she has suffered as a result .
As adults, WS's are just as deserving of respect and common courtesy as the BS.
Asking a WS tough questions is perfectly acceptable, browbeating and abuse is not.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> We both posted here. Some of the comments made were:
> 
> "I honestly hope you don't reconcile"
> "You realize she was having threesomes with the OM and your friend, right"
> ...


100% agree with this post.
And I'll add more to it - these kid of posts are made from posters who you just know, haven't actually read the _details _of the OP's thread!

Another total gem from a variety of idiot-posters:
_"She's been having an affair for much longer than you think"
"This isn't her first rodeo"
"Get your kids' DNA tested"_


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> What I hate here is the veiled insults, particularly at BS's that want to attempt R. As if they aren't "Man" enough to walk away. It's a horrifically painful process and any BS who can face it for the previous love they had for their spouse, for their children, for their belief in "for better or worse", whatever their reason, they deserve the utmost respect for having the strength to try. And yet, they are constantly inundated with messages here that they are weak and beta, like this recent one:
> "It's truly sad, since TAM is primarily for BS support, that you choose to perpetrate unneeded pain on each other. Everyone in this section faces a barrage of should have/could have/would have issues. It would be nice if people can find confidence in their choices without belittling those on a different path to help with self-validation."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correct. Not only is a man weak or 'Beta' but he's also a cuckold.

However, if posters will call me out on that as being hypocritical when I've used those very same words above on other posters' for Reconciling and not Divorcing....but to that I can only say I take and view each case as it comes.

Two well-known and multiple-thread TAM situations spring to mind instantly...marriages that, from the husbands' point of view were fine, yet they obviously were not and subsequently their respective wives betrayed them in pretty brutal fashion, over a long-term period and pretty much planned-out.

Those kind of cases, I'd think reconciliation would be incredibly hard to pull off and get the marriage back to how it was.
For those guys, there's either a lot of head-in-the-sand going on or, they've just accepted that their wives may go down those same paths again...


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Fact is, that most WS's are normally good people placed in abnormal situations, for which they have not ever been prepared. In my own situation, my wife was an outstanding wife and mother, until approx 4 years ago. According to many venom spewers, she is now consigned to hell as a *****. Well, she isn't. If I had been able to fall in love with her again, ( I could not), I have no doubt that she would never have cheated again, because of all she has suffered as a result .
> As adults, WS's are just as deserving of respect and common courtesy as the BS.
> Asking a WS tough questions is perfectly acceptable, browbeating and abuse is not.


You lost me at "most WS are ....." I see this as nothing more than your projection of your situation, a weakness most posters have, and I'm including BS in my phrasing of "most posters". 
Many of the WS that are discussed here (usually not the WS that post), are not basically good people. They are frequently serial cheaters who have stolen money from their spouses, manipulated family members and threatened the BS. There are numerous threads all over TAM where the OP has come here depressed and naive about the depth of betrayal they have to face. Does this mean the WS is utterly hopeless or incapable of reforming-absolutely not. Sadly, however, the statistics indicate that true reformation is rare-as indicated by the number of couples who have gone through multiple false R.

The truth is, most of the people who come to TAM are BS, and they bring their truth and their experience to any discussion.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I like your idea, but would remind you that TAM is for MARRIAGE support, not just for BS support.


I do not see a marriage being healed without empathy being shown to both parties.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

davecarter said:


> 100% agree with this post.
> And I'll add more to it - these kid of posts are made from posters who you just know, haven't actually read the _details _of the OP's thread!
> 
> Another total gem from a variety of idiot-posters:
> ...


Some guy PM'd me telling me to have my kids DNA tested. 

They are both in their forties!!!


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

2asdf2 said:


> Some guy PM'd me telling me to have my kids DNA tested.
> 
> They are both in their forties!!!


Some guy also pm'ed Joe and told him to get our kids tested as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Some guy also pm'ed Joe and told him to get our kids tested as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Dig heard that in his first thread. I guess at no time during our relationship I was faithful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> You lost me at "most WS are ....."


This. Blatant disrespect like this is the kind I think of when I think of TAM. Purely and totally dismissive of someone and openly admitting your prejudice and bias. F'ng mind numbing and oh, so short sighted.

Typical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Is cuckolding someone worse than cheating on them ?

I don't get the DNA and VARS either...They are usually edge cases that need them.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> Dig heard that in his first thread. I guess at no time during our relationship I was faithful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Trust is fragile and very difficult to rebuilt back to the original level.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Asking a WS tough questions is perfectly acceptable, browbeating and abuse is not.



A grey line separates tough questions and browbeating. It's hard to know when that's crossed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> Dig heard that in his first thread.* I guess at no time during our relationship I was faithful.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure it's frustrating to hear that. I think waywards are treated pretty harshly here. I am pretty amazed that any stay.

But you realize it's not about you, right? Those folks are just projecting their fear onto other people. It really doesn't have anything to do with _you._


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

2asdf2 said:


> Some guy PM'd me telling me to have my kids DNA tested.
> 
> They are both in their forties!!!



Was your age and your kids ages presented in your thread/posts before he pm'ed you?


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

aug said:


> Trust is fragile and very difficult to rebuilt back to the original level.


That is true and on occasion Dig will ask something about the affair even 2.5 years later. In my commentary I was speaking more to the posters comments that were made to him.

That kind of innuendo cam potentially be damaging to a new betrayed coming here. Luckily, Dig can tell with absolute certainty our kids are his. Some men going through the pain and agony of Dday might not be so sure, so IMO a question that might not need to cloud their already fragile self could be what breaks them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> This. Blatant disrespect like this is the kind I think of when I think of TAM. Purely and totally dismissive of someone and openly admitting your prejudice and bias. F'ng mind numbing and oh, so short sighted.
> 
> Typical.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you are calling ME disrespectful and dismissive and prejudiced because I object to a blatant across-the board characterization of "most WS". 
You're calling me f'ng mind numbing and short sighted because I pointed out that people bring their own baggage and history to any post. Who is really being short sighted here. Who was being respectful?


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> So you are calling ME disrespectful and dismissive and prejudiced because I object to a blatant across-the board characterization of "most WS".
> You're calling me f'ng mind numbing and short sighted because I pointed out that people bring their own baggage and history to any post. Who is really being short sighted here. Who was being respectful?


Merely pointing out the obvious since it is precisely the topic at hand. Your 're-questioning by the way is a dead give away to the fact your ego simply cannot take true criticism.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Oh, and I never called YOU mind numbing. I was speaking to the attitude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

jld said:


> I'm sure it's frustrating to hear that. I think waywards are treated pretty harshly here. I am pretty amazed that any stay.
> 
> But you realize it's not about you, right? *Those folks are just projecting their fear onto other people. * It really doesn't have anything to do with _you._


:iagree:

Fears. Concerns. Based on the personal experience of the person who responds. One size (obviously) doesn't fit all, but we all bring to the table what we learned in our own life experiences and observations. Some suggestions/opinions can be ignored while others make perfectly logical sense but all are generally based on some sort of personal experience presented by the person commenting.

Infidelity is a topic that affects many individuals while the circumstances may vary from person to person.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> So you are calling ME disrespectful and dismissive and prejudiced because I object to a blatant across-the board characterization of "most WS".
> 
> You're calling me f'ng mind numbing and short sighted because I pointed out that people bring their own baggage and history to any post. Who is really being short sighted here. Who was being respectful?



I read that post and saw in it the same dismissiveness and generalization you were calling out. 

" I see this as nothing more than your projection of your situation, a weakness most posters have, and I'm including BS in my phrasing of "most posters".

Only instead of calling out most WS you called out most posters. 

I think your point on people projecting their situations is spot on. It does happen, sometimes that can be helpful, sometimes not so helpful. I can only post from my experience. I hope that it helps it gives the OP strength, if it doesn't I hope they ignore me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Regret, are you happier now that you're completely transparent with your husband? Is it something you wish you had done since the beginning of your relationship? Or do you not feel that way at all?

I ask because I'm big into transparency and encourage it right from the beginning of relationships.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

aug said:


> Was your age and your kids ages presented in your thread/posts before he pm'ed you?


I was talking about stuff that I said happened almost 35-40 years ago.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

jld said:


> Regret, are you happier now that you're completely transparent with your husband? Is it something you wish you had done since the beginning of your relationship? Or do you not feel that way at all?
> 
> I ask because I'm big into transparency and encourage it right from the beginning of relationships.


Fully transparent as I was in the beginning of our relationship. My affair didn't begin until 8 years after we began our relationship. I don't pm here, otherwise I'd go into a lot more detail and don't want to go off topic. I apologize.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> Oh, and I never called YOU mind numbing. I was speaking to the attitude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow.
So no BS is permitted to point out any flaw or fault in any WS, never mind the fact that as I pointed out, TAM is IN FACT, filled with numerous BS that are facing the pain of a WS that are not basically nice people. And there are also numerous WS on TAM that are or have become good people.

I suggested that not all WS be painted with a broad-brush and my "attitude" is called mind-numbing. What a judgmental, closed-minded approach your "attitude" shows.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Obviously, I must've misquoted you when you told Rookie you didn't read past his first sentence. My sincere apologies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Regret214 said:


> That is true and on occasion Dig will ask something about the affair even 2.5 years later. In my commentary I was speaking more to the posters comments that were made to him.
> 
> That kind of innuendo cam potentially be damaging to a new betrayed coming here. Luckily, Dig can tell with absolute certainty our kids are his. Some men going through the pain and agony of Dday might not be so sure, so IMO a question that might not need to cloud their already fragile self could be what breaks them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My Ex used to "joke"  that he should have our son's DNA tested to determine if our son was his. I told him to go for it. Waste the money if he wants. There is a definite resemblance between father and son - and absolutely no doubt whatsoever that my Ex is indeed the father of our son.

My son was more insulted by his father's little "joke" than I was and as a result of the "joke" they are not close. Perhaps my Ex was projecting his own infidelity on me. 

On a forum of strangers, it's always best to consider the source of the advise and follow or reject that advise based on your own personal circumstances.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> My Ex used to "joke"  that he should have our son's DNA tested to determine if our son was his. I told him to go for it. Waste the money if he wants. There is a definite resemblance between father and son - and absolutely no doubt whatsoever that my Ex is indeed the father of our son.
> 
> My son was more insulted by his father's little "joke" than I was and as a result of the "joke" they are not close. Perhaps my Ex was projecting his own infidelity on me.
> 
> On a forum of strangers, it's always best to consider the source of the advise and follow or reject that advise based on your own personal circumstances.


Wow. How terrible for your son. Dig and I decided very early on that no one knows the intricacies of our relationship or marriage and therefore we were able to filter what we read. Again, not a lot can do that in the days following Dday due to the pain they're going through. They're reaching out for help. Some people's version of help might be the opposite of an OP's needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I really don't get these latest posts. Please explain why it is that it's disrespectfull to suggest DNA and STD test? 
A betrayed husband has absolutely no way of knowing for sure, if his wife's extramarital sexual activities resulted in kids or STD. Same goes for a betrayed wife. I would say that it's just pointing out the obvious.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

I don't think suggesting an STD test is disrespectful at all. Heck, I did that on my own a few days past Dday without Dig even asking.

A DNA test suggestion on the other hand, IMO, should be more tailored. When a new betrayed starts a thread and within the first three replies the comment "are your kids your kids" followed by "how do you know"...that seems to be a bit much. Unless, the new poster specifically comments that a pregnancy occurred during the affair or shortly thereafter, I just think it's a tacky question full of innuendo that doesn't need to be asked. 

Then again, that's just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

cpacan said:


> I really don't get these latest posts. Please explain why it is that it's disrespectfull to suggest DNA and STD test?
> A betrayed husband has absolutely no way of knowing for sure, if his wife's extramarital sexual activities resulted in kids or STD. Same goes for a betrayed wife. I would say that it's just pointing out the obvious.


Agreed.
STD testing should be given to any new BS that comes here. The DNA would be appropriate if there was an opportunity. But given the nature of A, the truth is not always revealed in a timely manner. For instance, my next-door neighbor discovered his 7yr DD was not his biological child during a custody dispute. At the time of her birth he had no idea about the A. So while some might call it tacky it can be a reality of infidelity.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Agreed.
> STD testing should be given to any new BS that comes here. The DNA would be appropriate if there was an opportunity. But given the nature of A, the truth is not always revealed in a timely manner. For instance, my next-door neighbor discovered his 7yr DD was not his biological child during a custody dispute. At the time of her birth he had no idea about the A. So while some might call it tacky it can be a reality of infidelity.


The essence of a lot of this thread is that responses should be measured to the problem presented. Oftentimes it's in how it is phrased.

"Have you considered the need for testing?"

or

"You better get tested, like now! Skanky serial cheaters love to f**k without a condom and get impregnated by Bulls to humiliate and disrespect beta men who are too afraid to question their wh****g wives,"


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@ Pluto2: But did it matter to him? He raised her like his daughter.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

When I caught my wife during her latest affair (lasted 9 months) she also confessed to a ONS 20 years ago, meaning her values about monogamy obviously may have been flawed all along. My kids were 10 and 7, so it would have been disrespectfull for a poster to point out to me, that my kids may not be mine? 

I didn't really consider it at all, and I didn't know about TAM at the time. Nobody did point it out to me, and I wouldn't have been offended at all. Today I just still wonder, if I'm a biological father or not and may follow through with a test some day. I guess it just makes us different. Or maybe it's just hard for a woman to imagine how this insecurity eats at you - because you know it with certainty.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

This forum is called “Coping With Infidelity.” People who come here with legitimate infidelity-related problems are looking for help with how to cope. This word covers a very broad field. How to cope with the pain (both pain experienced and pain caused), how to cope with the paralyzing effect, how to cope with the uncertainty about whether or not infidelity has taken place, how to cope with the impending divorce, how to cope with the loss of trust (for both parties), how to cope with the decision about reconciling… Coping requires tools and skills. These are available in abundance here, in the form of literature and references and in the experience of a multitude of TAM members. Different coping needs require different tools and skills. “VAR her car,” “DNA your kids,” “Implement the 180,” “Expose the affair,” and “Read Not Just Friends” are all appropriate coping measures for certain situations. None of them is appropriate for every situation.

There is clearly a TAM Doctrine regarding how to cope with infidelity. We can argue about the details of what it is, but it boils down to: Assemble evidence (by stealth if need be), confront hard, expose the affair, instant and complete NC after exposure, get complete truth from WS, get evidence of true remorse from WS, decide on D or R. Certain tenets support this doctrine: Problems in the marriage are jointly owned, but the decision to cheat is 100 percent on the cheater; cheating is not a justifiable reaction to problems in the marriage; better to divorce than cheat; there can be no R while the affair is still going on; you can’t “nice” your spouse out of an affair; you have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it. Etc.

And I am absolutely fine with all of this. As a BS I have benefitted from it. But here’s the point: I have benefitted both from The Doctrine and from the views of those whom The Doctrine in its draconian form would characterize as lying cheating scumbag sleazeball slvts. The Doctrine is educational only for the BS. For the WS it is strictly accusatory. If a WS were to come on TAM and say: “Here’s my story. I cheated. I know I was wrong but here’s why I did it. How can I get my spouse to understand?”, I would roll my eyes and think “What a self-centered piece of work.” But I would like TAM to be able to educate this person effectively. The Doctrine does not really have room for this. The TAM Doctrine is effective at helping the BS cope with the effects of infidelity. It is ineffective at helping the WS understand how to help the BS cope with the effects that the WS’ own actions have caused. And The Doctrine has absolutely no room for the introspective thoughts of a WS trying to divine why they did what they did in order to ensure that it does not happen again. In TAM Doctrine the BS is a very complex and thoroughly understood character. The WS is a cartoon.

This is the current state of CWI as I see it. And I must admit that I see no evidence of TAM being overrun by a horde of apologists who are imposing a “blame the BS” ethos, as has been suggested. Where are these people?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

jld said:


> @ Pluto2: But did it matter to him? He raised her like his daughter.


You know it didn't matter one bit to him, but it REALLY mattered to her. She wanted to strip him of his parental status. As far as I know neither party was selfish enough to share the DNA test with the DD. He remains a wonderful father to this day.


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## OptimisticPessimist (Jul 26, 2010)

Pluto2 said:


> So you are calling ME disrespectful and dismissive and prejudiced because I object to a blatant across-the board characterization of "most WS".
> You're calling me f'ng mind numbing and short sighted because I pointed out that people bring their own baggage and history to any post. Who is really being short sighted here. Who was being respectful?


FWIW I dont think what you said was "f'ng mind numbing and short sighted" though I do think you worded it in a way that was combative and thats what drew the hostile response. I say this as someone who agrees with your main point. 

I also did not agree with _most_ and thus agree with you. I do reason that _some_ WS's are good people placed in abnormal situations, but I think that _most_ wayward spouses are not good people- this requires clarification.

Any act of infidelity is selfish in the moment as its well known the pain and suffering it causes; its a choice made in self-interest at the expense of one's spouse. The "good" WS's legitimately feel regret _for their spouse_; weve seen some come here who only care when it threatens what *they* want (and they dont usually stay here long), and they are not good WSs. _Most_ WS's (many of who never even find TAM) rugsweep, blameshift, and move on with their affair partner; they usually keep doing this until they are alone and bitter, or they settle (and are usually still bitter... because they are selfish). The happiest people are the ones who derive pleasure from giving and/or who give something back to humanity through the course of their normal life (think inventors, scientists etc for example).

As for the harsh barbs thrown here towards WSs, I think its more of a general internet phenomenon. Anyone read any youtube comments lately? When you are online, body posture, eye contact, fidelity of voice to inner feelings etc are all GONE. Thus, the only way some can find to express the emotional scale of what a WS has done to a BS is to be aggressive and even harshly blunt with words; humans in every social sphere wield and attempt to use _every bit_ of power they are given in an attempt to effect their view of what society should be. As words are the only power online, and that power can only purchase FEELING, barbs are thrown.

Human beings understand their relationship to environment by feeling; our logical approach is a mere tool to create, sustain, change or destroy the basis for a feeling. This is why humankind never seems to drastically alter any dynamic of societal function unless CALAMITY happens.

Some of us who laud divorce as the best answer dont necessarily mean the BS should avoid R and go through with the D; its often a _tool_ we are suggesting to bring calamity to the WS's doorstep. In this, the WS can FEEL that there is a problem that requires drastic action on their part. And if the BS feels after awhile that R just isnt for them? Well, then they are already on the path.

Anyways, apologies for the novel


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I really don't get these latest posts. Please explain why it is that it's disrespectfull to suggest DNA and STD test?
> A betrayed husband has absolutely no way of knowing for sure, if his wife's extramarital sexual activities resulted in kids or STD. Same goes for a betrayed wife. I would say that it's just pointing out the obvious.


It depends on the situation. If a wife admits to a ONS in June and their children are in their 20's, suggesting a DNA test is the same as saying that the wife has been cheating for decades.

That would be a far reach, wouldn't you think?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Agreed.
> STD testing should be given to any new BS that comes here. The DNA would be appropriate if there was an opportunity. But given the nature of A, the truth is not always revealed in a timely manner. For instance, my next-door neighbor discovered his 7yr DD was not his biological child during a custody dispute. At the time of her birth he had no idea about the A. So while some might call it tacky it can be a reality of infidelity.


It can be indeed. But to tell the OP to DNA test his kids when the thread just starts and there is no detailed information yet available is one of the shocking things that drives new folks away from TAM.

Yes, suggesting DNA is quite proper when the situation indicates that something might have happened. But to suggest it at the drop of a hat shows a prejudice that the OP did not expect -- and drive the OP away.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> It depends on the situation. If a wife admits to a ONS in June and their children are in their 20's, suggesting a DNA test is the same as saying that the wife has been cheating for decades.
> 
> That would be a far reach, wouldn't you think?


Do you know that she hasn't? If you do, or the BS in question does, then I agree - it would be a far reach.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> Is cuckolding someone worse than cheating on them ?
> 
> I don't get the DNA and VARS either...They are usually edge cases that need them.


That's a hot potato.

Cuckolding in the old-fashioned sense is a man who's wife cheated on him and he didn't know about it.
Cuckolding in the modern 'fetish' sense is a man who is erotically into the his wife cheating on him / sleeping with another man.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

davecarter said:


> That's a hot potato.
> 
> Cuckolding in the old-fashioned sense is a man who's wife cheated on him and he didn't know about it.
> Cuckolding in the modern 'fetish' sense is a man who is erotically into the his wife cheating on him / sleeping with another man.


Fortunately/Unfortunately, we've got both.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

I haven't been posting for a while because there seems to be a lot of posts on a thread. All sides covered. I have nothing more to add by the time I get there.


People self select TAM from Google. Their search terms drive them here and more often than not it is a cry for help.

They are confused at the sudden change in their spouse. They simply can not believe that this is happening and they arrive here in agony.

I have seen threats of suicide and murder but by far the most common reaction is that they are frozen
I have felt the grief of death early on. 
Been assaulted, seen the end clearly and accepted it.
Starved on the street with no home

Those do not compare with the pain I felt at the loss of my family. The pain in my children eyes which my ExW could or would not see. 

That pain is what we see here more than any. 
Often with men it is the Firemen, Policemen, Services. Tough business men and men who fought to live outside the norm. 

I suspect the women are the same personality type but it is harder for me to see. I am a guy. 

Alpha. In every place but their home

We ask them to bring in the wrecking ball and for a while they resist. For a while they try and maintain it at almost any cost. 
They deny, justify. They need proof.
We continue to insist and then sometimes we see a rapid change.

The change is that they have acknowledged that the one safe place they had. That one person on the planet who they revealed their weakness to has betrayed them.

This is often the "bridge moment" the murder and revenge moment. For most it passes in a minute but others need talking down. 

It is betrayal. we shorten it to "BS" and that disguises the reality for us and them

This was my signature for a while.

“One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.”

And hope is what people feel. They hope that they are wrong. That hope they can save her/him because they love them. 
We call their spouse wayward and fogged to help them understand. 

It is lie though.

The truth is that the person they most trusted chose to betray and continued to choose to betray until they are discovered. Then often the betrayal continues after discovery.

Slaughtering the hope of their spouse, their children and their family. 

I have very little sympathy for that. 

It is a one line response to a Betrayer

"End the affair now. Confess. Then come back here for help"


Reconciliation.
Real true with remorse, amends and humility is rare and a huge testament to love. Good people make bad choices and I can understand that. 
A person who can forgive betrayal is better than I. 
A person who can face the person they betrayed with an open heart is strong.

I salute you both


TAM is a reality check

Cheating fcks up lives. Deal with it or fck off


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Beautifully written.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> You lost me at "most WS are ....." I see this as nothing more than your projection of your situation, a weakness most posters have, and I'm including BS in my phrasing of "most posters".
> Many of the WS that are discussed here (usually not the WS that post), are not basically good people. They are frequently serial cheaters who have stolen money from their spouses, manipulated family members and threatened the BS. There are numerous threads all over TAM where the OP has come here depressed and naive about the depth of betrayal they have to face. Does this mean the WS is utterly hopeless or incapable of reforming-absolutely not. Sadly, however, the statistics indicate that true reformation is rare-as indicated by the number of couples who have gone through multiple false R.
> 
> The truth is, most of the people who come to TAM are BS, and they bring their truth and their experience to any discussion.


Most cheaters are serial cheaters? I would like to know where you have gotten this statistic. In point of fact, most people who have had affairs , only had one and were ashamed of that single incident. Serial cheaters are extremely rare birds.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

aug said:


> A grey line separates tough questions and browbeating. It's hard to know when that's crossed.


I think that when tough questions are asked of the WS, IF they are asked in a civil and courteous manner, then that is acceptable. It is when they are phrased in a rude , sarcastic or hectoring manner, that they become offensive.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> Wow.
> So no BS is permitted to point out any flaw or fault in any WS, never mind the fact that as I pointed out, TAM is IN FACT, filled with numerous BS that are facing the pain of a WS that are not basically nice people. And there are also numerous WS on TAM that are or have become good people.
> 
> I suggested that not all WS be painted with a broad-brush and my "attitude" is called mind-numbing. What a judgmental, closed-minded approach your "attitude" shows.


Sorry, but You are both projecting and not paying attention. NOBODY said that BS's cannot state their opinions of the "flaws and faults" of various WS's. What is stated is that these opinions of the BS's should be presented in a civil and courteous manner, and not be personally insulting. and that "ganging up on a WS is counter-productive.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but You are both projecting and not paying attention. NOBODY said that BS's cannot state their opinions of the "flaws and faults" of various WS's. What is stated is that these opinions of the BS's should be presented in a civil and courteous manner, and not be personally insulting. and that "ganging up on a WS is counter-productive.



I don't disagree that respect is called for.
If you will notice, my initial post challenged the categorization of a poster that "most WS...." I don't think either BS or WS can be placed in a overly broad generalization. That was the only point I ever challenged, I was not rude to the OP I never stated I didn't read his post, or that the OP was personally projecting, although I clearly think many posters both BS and WS are guilty of that. The only point I was making was that I did not accept his initial premise. In response someone else chimed in and was rude and did make assumptions that were incorrect. 

On both sides of this discussion, manners can go far.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Most cheaters are serial cheaters? I would like to know where you have gotten this statistic. In point of fact, most people who have had affairs , only had one and were ashamed of that single incident. Serial cheaters are extremely rare birds.


They may be in the real world, but not here on TAM.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Rookie4 said:


> I think that when tough questions are asked of the WS, IF they are asked in a civil and courteous manner, then that is acceptable. It is when they are phrased in a rude , sarcastic or hectoring manner, that they become offensive.


The user Tears has been mentioned on this thread several times. She had a one night stand. Went out with a girlfriend. Guy chatted them up, she believed he was after the girlfriend ... they end up sleeping together the following day. She felt awful. She told her husband. Her husband left immediately following her confession and divorced her.

That woman whom everyone speaks so highly of now, got utterly, absolutely, and brutally savaged when she started posting here.

I was shocked that she kept coming back. She somehow believed she deserved the punishment. Some of the sh!t people were saying to her ranged from patently evil, to bizarre. There were people demanding to know if she used a condom and if the guy came inside her, how many times and where. She was called every name in the book, and guys would post just to cheer her husband for straight up walking out (something they DIDN'T do) and taking a shot at a 'wh0re of a wife'.

So basically, the reason she has been 'accepted' is that she was remorseful, and she took her beat down without ever once fighting back or trying to defend herself. The woman was bullied and harassed. She would post once, and there would be 10+ pages of commentary and bile from other users.

No fewer than 30 pages of posts were removed from that thread, and there must have been at least 12 bans, 8 of them permanent.

If that is the 'state' that most people would prefer CWI to be in, then I'm more than happy to disappoint.

That crap can't be 'moderated'. It has to be purged.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Deejo said:


> The user Tears has been mentioned on this thread several times. She had a one night stand. Went out with a girlfriend. Guy chatted them up, she believed he was after the girlfriend ... they end up sleeping together the following day. She felt awful. She told her husband. Her husband left immediately following her confession and divorced her.
> 
> That woman whom everyone speaks so highly of now, got utterly, absolutely, and brutally savaged when she started posting here.
> 
> ...


I was one of those who defended Tears and offered her support. I read the references in this thread, not as posters wanting to treat WS posters like Tears was treated, it has been more about her attitude to what she did to her husband and family. IMO, these facts made it very easy (for me at least) to have sympathy for Tears and offer her support - she didn't refuse responsibility for her actions, nor did she blame her husband for his part in the betrayal.

What I see very often on TAM today is WS and people with no history of infidelity on either side, picking on BS and newly betrayeds, trying to make them understand how they made their loved one betray them. Cheating can't be justified, but... It's all on the WS, but....

And that's about as sad as the treatment Tears faced. I feel that this calm blameshifting and attempt to transfer guilt to BS posters, is just... sad. But these posts will probably never get moderated if only the wording and tone is within the rules.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Hi Deejo
There was a guy on here probably two years ago. An un-remorseful cheater. He genuinely believed that he had it all under control. That he was right and he had the right to cheat. A Narcissist at best. A Psychopath at worst. 

He was clever as they normally are. He never directly abused or responded in a way that would get a ban. He did trigger some really regular posters. They posted things out of character and they received short bans.

I watched it happen. One after another. The forum emptying of good people. I mean really good people.

My finest moment ( I think) was that in a detached and psychopathic way I argued his own logic. Got under his skin. Eventually he broke and abused me in a way I was , sadly, familiar with. 

I reported him and someone banned him and his thread deleted.

The cost to the forum was huge though. Even Pit extended beyond his normal horribly accurate two line posts and triggered! 

I wish it was still here. Locked with a warning. But still here because for a few, not many, but a few of us that is our experience. However horrible that looks to those outside.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Deejo said:


> The user Tears has been mentioned on this thread several times. She had a one night stand. Went out with a girlfriend. Guy chatted them up, she believed he was after the girlfriend ... they end up sleeping together the following day. She felt awful. She told her husband. Her husband left immediately following her confession and divorced her.
> 
> That woman whom everyone speaks so highly of now, got utterly, absolutely, and brutally savaged when she started posting here.
> 
> ...


It seems to me that some of our very best and most helpful posters have been perma banned. I do not understand this. I also do not understand the lack of punishment for the folks that pushed them beyond their limits. Especailly in the cwi forum there is a difference in being baited and intentionally insulting someone.

The most intolerable behavior is troll calling anyway and that is rarely enforced.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

As a BS, I try very hard to stay from threads started by a WS (I don't always succeed -- I got caught up in Tears' situation and felt bad for both of them). 

I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I see a WS thread and I know it will be a trigger so I don't even read it. Not all WS's cheat more than once but there are those who do and my ex-husband was among them. So I'm aware I have an extremely strong bias against any WS who cheats more than once. I can't even explain how bad my reaction is when I run across one. I know I need to stay away from those threads and do but when it's the thread of a BS who is thinking of reconciling with a serial cheater, or who already has, I usually can't stop my fingers from posting.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Deejo said:


> The user Tears has been mentioned on this thread several times. She had a one night stand. Went out with a girlfriend. Guy chatted them up, she believed he was after the girlfriend ... they end up sleeping together the following day. She felt awful. She told her husband. Her husband left immediately following her confession and divorced her.
> 
> That woman whom everyone speaks so highly of now, got utterly, absolutely, and brutally savaged when she started posting here.
> 
> ...


Beautifully said. 

I'd only add that this sort of thing is, in my opinion, a major reason why women don't often initiate a post in CWI.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Deejo said:


> I was shocked that she kept coming back. She somehow believed she deserved the punishment. Some of the sh!t people were saying to her ranged from patently evil, to bizarre. There were people demanding to know if she used a condom and if the guy came inside her, how many times and where. She was called every name in the book, and g*uys would post just to cheer her husband for straight up walking out (something they DIDN'T do) *and taking a shot at a 'wh0re of a wife'.




That's an accurate observation I have noticed a trend from some posters who do not practice what they preach.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Most cheaters are serial cheaters? I would like to know where you have gotten this statistic. In point of fact, most people who have had affairs , only had one and were ashamed of that single incident. Serial cheaters are extremely rare birds.


And where do you find this statistic? Only one and are ashamed? Sounds fishy. I don't know which is the fact, but don't believe for a minute that serial cheaters are "extremely rare", among cheaters.

A very quick search turned up this article citing stats that anywhere from 22% to 55% of cheaters are serial cheaters:

Quote:

"Just as the figures about people who cheat vary among studies, so do stats on repeat cheating. One reference suggests that only about 22% of those who cheat do so again, while another finds that 55% repeat. According to an online survey of nearly 21,000 men and women who claimed to have had affairs, 60% of the men and half of the women were unfaithful more than once. "

http://joydavidson.com/portfolio/once-a-cheater-always-a-cheater-other-cliches-myth-or-fact/


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> A little out of hand?


Yup



> The same could be said about BS who believe that ALL BS's are good and ALL WS's are evil , or that affairs happen spontaneously. Both prime examples of brainlessness.


Yup



> As adults, WS's are just as deserving of respect and common courtesy as the BS.


Only if they are owning their decisions and not blaming their BS for their decision to cheat. If that is the case, yes, they have my respect.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Lot of hypocrisy going on in this thead.

There is someone in this thread that thinks wayward wives should be forgiven, but wayward husbands should not. She has said this. Any guesses?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

What would the possibility be of getting a couple subforums?

One that specifically caters to BS, and one for the WS?

That way if someone wants to vent, let them. And if you are on the other side, you know to enter at your own risk?


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

You'd get crossovers, Vell. Like the Ladies and Men's forums here.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> You'd get crossovers, Vell. Like the Ladies and Men's forums here.


I agree. But then those that want to talk about situations or vent without the other side coming in and successfully getting the thread shut down can do so.

The sub forums described could have an understanding that its meant as a sounding board, or section that is meant for one side of the infidelity spectrum and the other side, although welcome, would need to tread very lightly. And someone from the "other" side coming into a thread in a section shouldn't be able to hijack the threads and get them closed down.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

vellocet said:


> What would the possibility be of getting a couple subforums?
> 
> One that specifically caters to BS, and one for the WS?
> 
> That way if someone wants to vent, let them. And if you are on the other side, you know to enter at your own risk?


I like the concept from LS, where WS seeking justifications for cheating and sympathy for their AP-relationship can visit the OW/OM forum, while those who want to learn from mistakes, improve and/or make it work with their spouse usually post in the Infidelity forum. IMO, majority of the WS-posts that rub BS the most, will be posted in OW/OM forum. And I never read that particular subforum myself.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Most cheaters are serial cheaters? I would like to know where you have gotten this statistic. In point of fact, most people who have had affairs , only had one and were ashamed of that single incident. Serial cheaters are extremely rare birds.


Infidelity stats are variable depending on the method, place, and when the survey is conducted.

One source is truthaboutdeception dot com. They have done surveys of about 90,000 people total, roughly half men and half women. These are visitors to their site who fill in the survey. This is the only data I have found online in a quick search for serial cheating or multiple affair stats.

Their data shows that 60% of men who had an affair report that they had multiple affairs. 49% of women who had cheated reported they had more than one affair.

While this survey is not the final word on serial cheating, it shows that multiple affairs are common, not rare.

It would be interesting to see a further refinement to various sex acts (intercourse vs oral vs "making out" vs just kissing) and also considering EAs. 71% of women reported having an EA, while 50% reported a PA. For men it was 63% EA and 62% PA. Obviously there are people who have had both an EA and PA.

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/surveys/4-cheating-spouse-survey/view_result.html


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Rubicon said:


> it is just that we can deliver the message pinned to a cupcake (show some empathy) or pinned to a bat (in a rude and condescending way) It's not what you say, it's how you say it.


:rofl::lol::iagree:


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Deejo said:


> The user Tears has been mentioned on this thread several times. She had a one night stand. Went out with a girlfriend. Guy chatted them up, she believed he was after the girlfriend ... they end up sleeping together the following day. She felt awful. She told her husband. Her husband left immediately following her confession and divorced her.
> 
> That woman whom everyone speaks so highly of now, got utterly, absolutely, and brutally savaged when she started posting here.
> 
> ...


Did you happen to finish reading that thread? After she revealed her husband had declined reconciling with her as you stated above, I seem to recall several posters here trashing her husband. Calling him spiteful and heartless, speculating that maybe he was cheating on her all along and this was his "out" he was using to end their relationship. Acting like what she did wasn't really that bad cause it was "only" a ONS. To tears credit I don't believe she said anything like that herself, only her most ardent reconciliation "supporters" did.

Does anybody here honestly think it would of been a good idea for her to have invited him to come to TAM and read post after post questioning his motives and insinuating that he's a awful person for not taking her back. This type of stuff goes both ways, but for some reason a lot of people seem to have a bad case of tunnel vision and are able to recognize it for what it is only when it's directed at their "side". Or maybe they just take it personally when it hits too close to home and simply don't care when it goes the other way because it doesn't affect them.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

You're right, Nostromo. Tears became an icon, and TAM sort of rallied behind her after the initial WW judgements were cast. 

At first, her poor, poor H. 

Then, yeah, H, you do it! He was out of there like the proper TAM way of ditching your POSWW. 

Then... he was a bastard, because people had started to like Tears. 

Weird dynamic. Crowds are fickle.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

doubletrouble said:


> You're right, Nostromo. Tears became an icon, and TAM sort of rallied behind her after the initial WW judgements were cast.
> 
> At first, her poor, poor H.
> 
> ...




It's simple human projection


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

xakulax said:


> It's simple human projection


And it goes both ways, like when WSs will insinuate that there just HAD to be something the BS did or didn't do to cause their WS to cheat. Because that's how they feel for their own situations, so it must be for other WSs since there had to be some cause, and that cause has to rest with the BS.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

vellocet said:


> And it goes both ways, like when WSs will insinuate that there just HAD to be something the BS did or didn't do to cause their WS to cheat. Because that's how they feel for their own situations, so it must be for other WSs since there had to be some cause, and that cause has to rest with the BS.


But then there's also the hypocrisy. Your WS did or didn't do something that influenced your choices too.... It's just that when a WS says that, it's a bad thing and a excuse or justification. A BS says it and it's "duh... don't rugsweep!".


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Racer said:


> But then there's also the hypocrisy. Your WS did or didn't do something that influenced your choices too.... It's just that when a WS says that, it's a bad thing and a excuse or justification. A BS says it and it's "duh... don't rugsweep!".


My WS did or didn't do something that influenced my choice.....to NOT cheat? :scratchhead:

And there is no hypocrisy in what you stated.

What you stated was a WS or a BS saying it and they *both* get called on it. Its called consistency. If a WS makes excuses, then they are blaming the BS. If a BS makes excuses for their WS, then they are blaming themselves and they ARE rugsweeping. Excuses are excuses, whether it comes from the WS or the BS.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Lot of hypocrisy going on in this thead.
> 
> There is someone in this thread that thinks wayward wives should be forgiven, but wayward husbands should not. She has said this. Any guesses?


Who is "she"?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Who is "she"?


You can PM me if you want to know.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Actually if you must know, the thread "Had enough of the wife", post 48.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Now that I recognize how ignorant I was before I became a betrayed spouse - how little I really knew about the experience of infidelity in a marriage - I'm less inclined to be interested in the opinions here on CWI of people who have never been betrayed spouses or unfaithful spouses. Adult children who had a parent (or two!) who cheated are probably close enough to the situation to "get it" but other than that, other people who pontificate here about what WE are going through tend to bother me. 

I know now that I was really clueless about what it's like to be inside a marriage where infidelity has taken place. I think people who haven't experienced infidelity who post on CWI should keep in mind that they really don't have a clue - though they may think they do. Even if they'd been cheated on while dating - sorry, NOT the same thing as once you've taken vows to be faithful. Well, I guess long term relationships that are de facto marriages are different - even with no vows taken. But being cheated on while dating is not the same as what we're talking about here. 

I think if someone is posting here, a little humility is in order if they haven't lived through this nightmare.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

hopefulgirl said:


> Now that I recognize how ignorant I was before I became a betrayed spouse - how little I really knew about the experience of infidelity in a marriage - I'm less inclined to be interested in the opinions here on CWI of people who have never been betrayed spouses or unfaithful spouses. Adult children who had a parent (or two!) who cheated are probably close enough to the situation to "get it" but other than that, other people who pontificate here about what WE are going through tend to bother me.
> 
> I know now that I was really clueless about what it's like to be inside a marriage where infidelity has taken place. I think people who haven't experienced infidelity who post on CWI should keep in mind that they really don't have a clue - though they may think they do. Even if they'd been cheated on while dating - sorry, NOT the same thing as once you've taken vows to be faithful. Well, I guess long term relationships that are de facto marriages are different - even with no vows taken. But being cheated on while dating is not the same as what we're talking about here.
> 
> I think if someone is posting here, a little humility is in order if they haven't lived through this nightmare.



If I may ask who are these quot "*other people who pontificate here*" ?


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

xakulax said:


> If I may ask who are these quot "*other people who pontificate here*" ?


I don't think it's necessary for me to name particular posters. People generally don't make too many posts without referring in some way to their own experience as a BS, a WS, or having had parents who cheated. When you don't see a reference to someone's own infidelity story, then you tend to wonder about personal agendas when someone posts in CWI who hasn't experienced this nightmare himself or herself.

There are other areas in TAM where it might be more appropriate for them to post - I just wonder why they feel the need to express their opinions here in CWI. There's more than enough pot-stirring done by some of us who are in the horrible pain we experience from infidelity; I don't think we need people who have no clue what we're going through doing their own thing for their own purposes in a place for people dealing with something they don't truly understand.


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