# LD Wives that get upset about a HD husband's self pleasure??



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In my marriage I have a much higher libido than my wife and would always prefer to be with her as opposed to spending "quality" time alone with myself. Over the years my wife has tried to shame me over any masturbation urges which I feel to be perfectly normal and healthy. I no longer allow her to shame me and I if she does I simply point out that it is probably just as problematic for her to not do it regularly. We are in a "kind of OK place" regarding this topic, but it is still awkward for her. She just wants there to be a don't ask and don't tell policy. She would rather just not know about what I do with my time alone. Now a days, she just respects my privacy. If she asks, I'll share. But her question is usually limited to, "when was the last time you did that?" And she is hoping to hear that I have not for at least a few days because according to her she can tell the difference. 

Historically she used to promise that if I did not masturbate that we would have much more sex in our marriage. I honestly tried it and she not hold up her end of the bargain. She admitted that she was hoping that if I stopped masturbating that it would reduce my libido and not make me so needy for her all the time. She said, "if you stop doing that all the time, your need to do it should go away." She thought idea would be helpful for our marriage. When the opposite happened and I became much more needy she just got upset and it made problems worse. 

During my time alone I actually prefer to fantasize about my own wife, but she flat out REFUSES to believe that when I tell her. She always tells me that she just feels inadequate and that there is no way that I am attracted to her and that I really love her. Perhaps she thinks I am fantasizing about other women with voracious sexual appetites and that scares her. I honestly don't know and I guess my wife does not understand herself well enough to communicate on this topic. She just shuts down. 

*So in the dynamics of a marriage where the woman is LD and the male is HD, why is it that the wife gets upset or uncomfortable about a husband choosing to enjoy self pleasure after the she rejects his initiation? * I have seen this same pattern occur in many threads for other marriages with similar LD/HD dynamics. 

Is it guilt?
Is it fear of abandonment?
Is it jealousy?
Is it shame?
Is it sexual disgust?
Is it anger? 
Is it resentment?
Is it a control issue?
Is it frustration over a perceived lack of patience?

If someone could shed some light on this topic, I would appreciate it. Today my wife and I actually have a very satisfying sex life, but this still remains the one area of awkwardness. I guess we just grew up with very opposing views on self pleasure and that just is what it is at this point. I however still try to better understand and appreciate my wife even if she feels very different than I do. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think some (and note I say *some*) LD people believe that sex is basically "wrong" an that people shouldn't "need" sex. 

For people who do not themselves feel sexual desire, its very difficult to understand and masturbation can seem gross and animalistic.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

" She always tells me that she just feels inadequate and that there is no way that I am attracted to her and that I really love her. "
I think this line explains why she is LD. If you could work to solve that (especially if SHE works on it -- you certainly can't do this by yourself), I would bet a good portion of the LD would go away....


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Shame.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *So in the dynamics of a marriage where the woman is LD and the male is HD, why is it that the wife gets upset or uncomfortable about a husband choosing to enjoy self pleasure after the she rejects his initiation? * I have seen this same pattern occur in many threads for other marriages with similar LD/HD dynamics.


This pattern has not surfaced in my marriage, which has been about as mismatched desire-wise as they come, for nearly two decades.

My suspicion is she prefers me to take care of myself, one less burden for her.

She was comfortable with sex afaik before we had kids. Intellectually (it seems) she understands sex for some is a valuable part of life. She has had, and probably still does to some extent, an active “alone time” program; when we started dating she reported it was a 1-a-day thing.

I would guess attitudes an LD has towards an HD self-satisfying are as varied as LDs, and the desire-reducing factors-of-the-moment, themselves.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I copied below those I think are the issues. 

Qualifying with: issues certainly aren't the same for all, and some will add to the list, although it's a pretty good list. 

And I'm certainly projecting what I think and acknowledge others have listed the other reasons in posts too.

Anyway:

Is it guilt
Is it fear of abandonment
Is it jealousy?
Is it shame (for themselves)
Is it resentment
Is it a control issue


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

I’ve had this issue. W would like me to not masturbate and be ready to go whenever she’s in the mood. She doesn’t want me to have masturbated in the last day or two. But if I didn’t do that, I’d be up all night unable to sleep with an erection and getting erections at work.

If I’ve masturbated recently I will last longer in bed. That’s not a good thing in my case, as I take long to orgasm. So I get that it’s a negative.

I understand where she’s coming from but it is unrealistic. She either needs to be available almost any time that I want it or accept that I will grind the beans myself. She’s now far more understanding.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

There is nothing wrong with punching the clown and the LD spouse has to live with it. Just like the HD partner has to live with satisfying their own sexual need. I’m curious as to what some of the LD people have to say.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Pick one or a combination of any of these:

1. She feels negative about sexuality in general.
2. She's controlling.
3. She views you as a non-sexual person and doesn't like to see you step out of your role.

The whole concept of the non-responsive wife shaming the husband for his sexuality is nothing new. I've heard that MANY times. No masturbation. No porn. No strip clubs. If he's caught, he's shamed like a small child. Men lose their minds over this.

This behavior is also common in women that are eventually caught in an affair. Like the guy who I talked to last year who had a beautiful wife who treated him like he had leprosy. Zero intimacy. She saw his porn usage and flew off the handle. She was later found out to be secretly acting as a plaything/threesome partner for another married couple. How ironic.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

dadstartingover said:


> Pick one or a combination of any of these:
> 
> 1. She feels negative about sexuality in general.
> 2. She's controlling.
> ...


2nd


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I think some (and note I say *some*) LD people believe that sex is basically "wrong" an *that people shouldn't "need" sex. *
> 
> For people who do not themselves feel sexual desire, its very difficult to understand and masturbation can seem gross and animalistic.


This a thousand times over. When sex is seen as a "need" it's somehow put in a bad light, like it loses its passion and being a special thing. If I weren't married to my wife, I wouldn't feel like I "needed" sex with a woman. I might find other outlets. But being married, to the woman I love, that I committed to in a ceremony before god, sex within that marriage is a "needed" part of the equation, and she knew that up front. And it's been reinforced over the years. And unfortunately it has not been the passionate embrace it should be, because of her view of that "need" vs mine.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm thinking that some women feel negatively about sexuality in general. They call masturbation 'that". Somehow they see sex as 'bad'. What a shame this is--seems rooted in the past (often religion related) and also connected to parents' warning about sex out of marriage. Guys talking rudely and laughing about sex does not help.

She sees discussion as awkward and don't ask don't tell. How different life would be if sexuality is seen as loving, caring, pleasing actions and interactions in a special relationship. 

My husband withheld sex from me and I was baffled--thought this 'punishment' would go away. He did not like that I was comfortable with sexuality. So, it is not just females.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

sunsetmist said:


> I'm thinking that some women feel negatively about sexuality in general. They call masturbation 'that". Somehow they see sex as 'bad'. What a shame this is--seems rooted in the past (often religion related) and also connected to parents' warning about sex out of marriage. Guys talking rudely and laughing about sex does not help.
> 
> She sees discussion as awkward and don't ask don't tell. *How different life would be if sexuality is seen as loving, caring, pleasing actions and interactions in a special relationship.
> *
> My husband withheld sex from me and I was baffled--thought this 'punishment' would go away. He did not like that I was comfortable with sexuality. So, it is not just females.


^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Before I used to buy into this HD /LD Stuff. Now I see it as a construct of North Americans as a way to explain one person’s higher need for physical expression of closeness and need to repair the relationship/ find connection in the madness.
This HD/LD stuff gives one person the opportunity to potentially shame the other for wanting to express themselves in physical intimacy vs emotional intimacy(talking). “He/she just wants sex all the time.” Yea, right. If that was the case they would be getting their rocks off with anything that moved, or masturbating constantly. Hey, there are some folks out there, but I don’t believe they are the norm. 
And if you fantasize about your wife it just reinforces in my mind that it’s HER that you crave closeness with.
Masturbation can be for a lot of healthy reasons, tension release, frustration or inability to connect with someone we love. 
Or maybe we just cherish ourselves enough.
Nobody should be shamed. You may not understand it, doesn’t give you the right to judge it.
A little more understanding would go a long way.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

At the end of the day badsanta your wife could do with visiting infidelity websites and be THANKFUL that you choose a healthy, safe outlet for your desires and needs, all the while thinking of her, vs some of the horrific cr*p that’s out in the real world.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

My first thought was this is a woman who has some shame/embarrassment with respect to sex. Most women really don’t think about sex very often (especially middle age with kids) and think it’s bazaar that someone would think about something “gross/animalistic” that often.

My second thought is that she just can’t relate. If you’ve never had a high sex drive it’s impossible to relate. My wife at one point under went testosterone pellet injections. The next day she was begging me to come home early for some lovin’. She commented how she couldn’t stop thinking about it. My reply was “now you know how I feel... pretty much every day”. Her reply was “Yikes!”

I would argue a man denying his sex drive is on par with a mom trying to suppress being a mom. It’s not how we’re designed.

There are likely a number of false stories she is telling herself....

1) She married a sexual deviant and it’s “not “normal” to be this horny. Your sexuality is a threat because you are more likely to cheat or she will be embarrassed if her family and friends found out her husband has to resort to taking care of himself.

2) She married a porn addict and she will never look the same as, be as horny as, or have same a sex-positive attitude as the girls in porn. Only losers use porn and this is what husbands do when their partner isn’t good enough for them.

3) There is something wrong with her because she doesn’t want sex as much as you do so she feels insecure. Or she feels like a failure because she can’t satisfy her husband.

Women struggle with not being good enough and you taking care of yourself is easily construed as she is not horny enough.

This is something that probably needs to be discussed in marital counseling. Something is making her angry about it and y’all need to get to the root of it.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 is super rational and transparent about sex. However, on other topics she sometimes says stuff that is - so wack that it’s hard to even begin to grasp what is going on. 

Because humor is DEFINITELY one of M2’s love languages, it tends to be the best method for anchoring her back to reality. 

Now when she says wack stuff, I furrow my brow and ask her to: smile, talk, raise her hands over her head

When she does those 3 things I say: well you aren’t having a stroke, then I look around for a nearby clock, if it’s before 6 PM I say: And it’s too early for you to be sundowning.....

Then I ask her: Have you been reading Cosmo babe? Or taking some types of meds that could have ummm - side effects 





badsanta said:


> In my marriage I have a much higher libido than my wife and would always prefer to be with her as opposed to spending "quality" time alone with myself. Over the years my wife has tried to shame me over any masturbation urges which I feel to be perfectly normal and healthy. I no longer allow her to shame me and I if she does I simply point out that it is probably just as problematic for her to not do it regularly. We are in a "kind of OK place" regarding this topic, but it is still awkward for her. She just wants there to be a don't ask and don't tell policy. She would rather just not know about what I do with my time alone. Now a days, she just respects my privacy. If she asks, I'll share. But her question is usually limited to, "when was the last time you did that?" And she is hoping to hear that I have not for at least a few days because according to her she can tell the difference.
> 
> Historically she used to promise that if I did not masturbate that we would have much more sex in our marriage. I honestly tried it and she not hold up her end of the bargain. She admitted that she was hoping that if I stopped masturbating that it would reduce my libido and not make me so needy for her all the time. She said, "if you stop doing that all the time, your need to do it should go away." She thought idea would be helpful for our marriage. When the opposite happened and I became much more needy she just got upset and it made problems worse.
> 
> ...


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Here is what I don't get about this....for years we have heard your body your rules in relations to a woman's body so in fairness to men why can't it also be true as well...if it is my body I can decide if I want to pleasure myself or not....why must I be breaking some cardinal rule of marriage....this shaming crap is nothing more than control


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I think the ONLY case where her trying to "shame" you that makes sense is if you were taking care of yourself at the expense of sex with your wife.
Since that is NOT the case, she doesn't have a leg to stand on.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jlg07 said:


> " She always tells me that she just feels inadequate and that there is no way that I am attracted to her and that I really love her. "
> I think this line explains why she is LD. If you could work to solve that (especially if SHE works on it -- you certainly can't do this by yourself), I would bet a good portion of the LD would go away....


I have focused a great deal of effort in building her confidence and attributing my desire to her as opposed to it being arbitrary. That has helped a great deal, but at the same time it validates her into feeling right about things. So if I desire her and she refrains from allowing more sexual activity in our marriage, she claims that is then why I desire her so much. 

Part of me feels that she still struggles with feeling undesirable and that she somehow needs to focus on restricting my outlets in order to insure that I am able to desire her.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CraigBesuden said:


> I’ve had this issue. W would like me to not masturbate and be ready to go whenever she’s in the mood. She doesn’t want me to have masturbated in the last day or two. But if I didn’t do that, I’d be up all night unable to sleep with an erection and getting erections at work.
> 
> If I’ve masturbated recently I will last longer in bed. That’s not a good thing in my case, as I take long to orgasm. So I get that it’s a negative.


I used to have performance anxiety and sometimes struggle to climax. That was a very difficult thing for my wife and she would complain. An example would be me being very persistent for intimacy when she might not be in the mood. She would allow herself to be receptive and then during the moment I would not be able to climax. Then she would get resentful towards me. But during that time she was rejecting 90% of my advances. 

I have since gotten over that. But it has also required effort on her behalf to reduce anxiety and stress over when and how we initiate intimacy. We now communicate clearly about when it is going to happen and she follows through. This in turn allows me to manage my expectations and dial in my libido so that it is gonna be a sure thing.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Ach! 

This is a hard and slippery subject for some women to get their minds around. 

Never wanting, their hands to find, to arouse, finding it alarming with it rising round.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Humor aside, it is a hard subject for wives to embrace.
Let alone, to approve.

She looks at that wobbly thing as hers, yours' only to pee from.

If she can refrain from stretching it out, so can you for whatever length of time she so abates, abides.


TT 1-


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Casual Observer said:


> This a thousand times over. *When sex is seen as a "need" it's somehow put in a bad light, like it loses its passion and being a special thing.* If I weren't married to my wife, I wouldn't feel like I "needed" sex with a woman. I might find other outlets. But being married, to the woman I love, that I committed to in a ceremony before god, sex within that marriage is a "needed" part of the equation, and she knew that up front. And it's been reinforced over the years. And unfortunately it has not been the passionate embrace it should be, because of her view of that "need" vs mine.


That is an interesting comment. For years my wife complained that my desires were arbitrary and just any vagina would do. Since we were married and she was the only available vagina then she felt like, "tag you are it" for year after year. My solo self pleasure habits probably only served to reinforce this. 

I have since tried to equate my libido to a form of positive energy that I simply want to share with her in ways that hopefully make her feel loved and desired. I also explained how much it can hurt when she tries to shame or reject this aspect of who I am. While I don't think she will ever understand my libido she has come to appreciate the notion of "maintenance intimacy." This is not the same as pity sex but more so an understanding that regular sexual intimacy helps _maintain_ a better emotional connection between us in our marriage. This has helped things

Perhaps her occasional awareness that I have more of an appetite and still do things on my own puts her back into an old way of thinking that it is just an arbitrary need and therefor I am just using her when it happens.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

sunsetmist said:


> I'm thinking that some women feel negatively about sexuality in general. They call masturbation 'that". Somehow they see sex as 'bad'. What a shame this is--seems rooted in the past (often religion related) and also connected to parents' warning about sex out of marriage. Guys talking rudely and laughing about sex does not help.
> 
> *She sees discussion as awkward and don't ask don't tell. How different life would be if sexuality is seen as loving, caring, pleasing actions and interactions in a special relationship. *
> 
> My husband withheld sex from me and I was baffled--thought this 'punishment' would go away. He did not like that I was comfortable with sexuality. So, it is not just females.


This is interesting. Particularly in the context of self love being a loving, caring and pleasing action. My wife, now that I think about it, has always tended to downplay her own needs/wants as if she is undeserving. When it comes to buying things for herself, she will often do without (even if she earned the money) in favor of buying things for others. I have to be the one to step in and say, "look you work hard and something like this could really help. If you don't buy it for yourself then I will!"


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I've never had this "problem" (I think my wife was happy I wasn't bothering her), but I would say it's a control issue.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

aquarius1 said:


> At the end of the day badsanta your wife could do with visiting infidelity websites and be THANKFUL that you choose a healthy, safe outlet for your desires and needs, all the while thinking of her, vs some of the horrific cr*p that’s out in the real world.


I have a very dark sense of humor when it comes to this topic. I joke with my wife sometimes that I want to try supplementing our income by working as a male prostitute. But I tell my wife since I only desire her and that no other woman will do it for me that I'll just end up with a bunch of frustrated and angry clients after I reject them all.



Badsanta


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I didn't read any of the responses, just your opening post. Honestly, the reason is she's SELFISH. She's not thinking about you as a person who is not getting your sexual needs addressed or even talked about or acknowledged. She's not seeing YOU and she's not seeing the issue. She doesn't like it due to selfishness, even though SHE does not want to have more frequent sex with you.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Is LD something that can be fixed or is it the case that if she improved she would be forcing herself and therefore the situation would be a lot worse for both?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

My wife was mortified.

She has since gotten over it. 

The logic of that being the best of all viable responses to the mismatch eventually won out.

I have, of course, offered ways for her to participate, which she occasionally does.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

badsanta said:


> *So in the dynamics of a marriage where the woman is LD and the male is HD, why is it that the wife gets upset or uncomfortable about a husband choosing to enjoy self pleasure after the she rejects his initiation? *


You mean, why does YOUR wife seem to be upset about your alone time.

I can't answer for her. One would think she'd have better things to do with her time than continually try to control _your_ sexuality. Does she have control issues or something? 

Maybe she needs a hobby?


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## DoesItGetBetter? (Aug 16, 2019)

Hello, badsanta – 

Thank you for posting this. I am in a similar situation to you. I am the “high desire” spouse with sex drive, and my wife has “low desire.” I desire sex every day, but my wife only desires sex once per month. Thankfully, we still have sex every few days, otherwise I would self-satisfy. My wife gets upset with me “self-satisfying” because she does not understand how sexually driven males are. She is very religious, and me taking matters into my own hands is simply not approved of, viewed as debauchery, viewed as a sin, viewed as weakness. If porn is involved, she finds it even more horrible and shamefully, so I try to avoid it, not always successfully. She sees it as a betrayal if we don’t only meet each other’s sexual needs together. This is a major sore spot in my marriage. 

Take Care!


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

badsanta said:


> That is an interesting comment. For years my wife complained that my desires were arbitrary and just any vagina would do. Since we were married and she was the only available vagina then she felt like, "tag you are it" for year after year. My solo self pleasure habits probably only served to reinforce this.


She’s right, though. There are millions of vaginas out there. You have promised to forsake all others, making hers the only one for your physical pleasure.

If you’d married another woman, you’d be eating her cooking (or her yours), cleaning her house, sharing finances with her, and enjoying her vagina.

If she physically desires sex once a month, and she were married to another man, those physical needs would be satisfied by the other man.

You vowed monogamy, not celibacy. Your wife has the duty to attend to your physical needs, and you have the duty to attend to hers.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

In my first marriage, it was about control: not only would she not have sex with me, she ultimately demanded total control over my sexuality - because it was an inconvenience to her. And what do you do with inconveniences? You control them enough so they stop bothering you.

I suggest this is also happening here, albeit in a somewhat better way.


> Historically she used to promise that if I did not masturbate that we would have much more sex in our marriage. I honestly tried it and she not hold up her end of the bargain. She admitted that she was hoping that if I stopped masturbating that it would reduce my libido and not make me so needy for her all the time. She said, "if you stop doing that all the time, your need to do it should go away." She thought idea would be helpful for our marriage. When the opposite happened and I became much more needy she just got upset and it made problems worse.


This particular method of controlling her inconvenience is a violation on many levels:

One, she's leading you on - the 'carrot' of operant conditioning. Do what I want, and you'll get more of what you want. Only she had zero intention of actually doing that.

Two, she's manipulating you to control your sexuality. That is so icky that I would find it very disturbing if I were you. She's attempting to covertly curtail your sex drive by lying to you. Let that one sink in.

Three, she needs to understand that with monogamy comes responsibility. If I don't want my wife to have sex with other people, then I take some responsibility to ensure it's good for her. I can't take away all her options elsewhere, and then take away her option with me, too. Monogamy can't equal forced celibacy.

Four, she doesn't own your sexuality and she doesn't get to manage her anxiety by managing your fantasy life. It's yours. 

I would shut this down 100% if I were you. She gets to pick if she knows about it or if she wants you to hide it, and to join if she wants. But that's all. Unless you're saying no to her as a result of your solo activities.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> I desire sex every day, but my wife only desires sex once per month. Thankfully, we still have sex every few days, otherwise I would self-satisfy. My wife gets upset with me “self-satisfying” because she does not understand how sexually driven males are. She is very religious, and me taking matters into my own hands is simply not approved of, viewed as debauchery, viewed as a sin, viewed as weakness. If porn is involved, she finds it even more horrible and shamefully, so I try to avoid it, not always successfully. *She sees it as a betrayal if we don’t only meet each other’s sexual needs together. * This is a major sore spot in my marriage.


You agreed to monogamy, not celibacy. Your wife’s refusal to provide more frequent sex is the “betrayal” that leads to your masturbatory “betrayal.”

“Do not deny yourselves to each other, unless you first agree to do so for a while in order to spend your time in prayer; but then resume normal marital relations. In this way you will be kept from giving in to Satan's temptation because of your lack of self-control.” 1 Cor 7:5

In the old days, Christian women believed that denying sex to their husband is sinful. Not sure what they’re teaching these days.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> In my marriage I have a much higher libido than my wife and would always prefer to be with her as opposed to spending "quality" time alone with myself. Over the years my wife has tried to shame me over any masturbation urges which I feel to be perfectly normal and healthy. I no longer allow her to shame me
> 
> .....She just wants there to be a don't ask and don't tell policy. She would rather just not know about what I do with my time alone......
> 
> ...





badsanta said:


> I have focused a great deal of effort in building her confidence and attributing my desire to her as opposed to it being arbitrary. That has helped a great deal....
> 
> Part of me feels that she still struggles with feeling undesirable and that she somehow needs to focus on restricting my outlets in order to insure that I am able to desire her.


I so identify with you and your experiences. Let me share a few things I have learned from Marriage counseling with a sex therapist, with a marriage counselor, and with us joint reading a chapter a week of some marriage books and discussing what we read each week.

I am HD and she is LD. She has told me that when she was growing up Catholic and attended a convent high school, she was taught that masturbation was a serious sin. One that if she did, required her to go to confession and tell a middle aged male priest about her sexual urges. This she found to be beyond embarrassing. She would never be able to look at him or talk to the priest. Her family would be there when she got out of the confessional and see her red face and know she had sinned. 

When the sex therapist asked her if she ever masturbated, she said NO!. If I have those urges, I have a husband to take care of them. Focus on that for a few moments. 

When I masturbate it makes her feel inadequate. Her view is that when she has sexual urges, she can have her husband take care of them. Since I am HD, I will not likely say no to her. On the other hand, she loves me and doesn't want me to sin. Since she is LD, she also doesn't want to have sex with me, when she is not in the mood. She further views her masturbating me (HJ) as sinful. PIV is OK, but a HJ by her is not. So her perspective is that if she isn't in the mood and I am, that I should be "good" and do without. If I masturbate, she views it as saying that she is inadequate in her role as a wife. It really makes her upset that I would both sin and rub in her face that she is not sexually adequate.

That is partly why she doesn't want to know or be around me when I masturbate.

One time when we were reading about and discussing non-PIV sex, we did a Yes/No/Maybe list. When we discussed it, I learned a lot about her view of me, her and our genitals. When talking about oral sex, she explained that her genitals and mine were dirty and filthy. She didn't want to tough her own (again no masturbation on her part) as they were dirty and filthy and she especially didn't want me to put my mouth there. Similarly, she didn't want to touch my penis or testicles/scrotum and there was no way should would put that dirty thing in her mouth, even if I had just showered and washed.

We also discussed breast sex, pear necklace, cuming on other of her body parts (feet, legs, public hair, etc.). She explained in our discussion that some seemed so high school or juvenile and others were just disgusting as she would have to clean up a dirty filthy mess afterwards. 

So for my LD wife, my masturbating is sinful, makes her feel inadequate as a wife, and involves my making a dirty mess. Sometimes when I have asked for a helpful hand, she has told me NO, but you can come in me if you must.

I too have tried to explain how much I desire her and find her body beautiful. She has lots of body image issues. Sometimes she will rattle off a list of defects, her 69 year old body wrinkles, sagging skin, floppy folds of flesh, age spots, etc. Even when I tell her she is beautiful, and we have sex, she will put clothes on and cover up immediately afterwards.

Yes, I can identify with what you are saying. We have worked with one sex therapist/marriage counselor, two marriage counselors, and jointly read marriage counseling books and discussed them.

Once upon a time, I was in a sex starved marriage. With much better communication (sort of) we now have sex about twice a week. That has helped me cope a lot and feel emotionally closer to her. I still masturbate and when I do, I make sure she doesn't overtly know about it.

I think that you are probably in a similar situation. Good luck.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

aaarghdub said:


> There are likely a number of false stories she is telling herself....
> 
> 1) She married a sexual deviant and it’s “not “normal” to be this horny. Your sexuality is a threat because you are more likely to cheat or she will be embarrassed if her family and friends found out her husband has to resort to taking care of himself.
> 
> ...



When we used to argue about intimacy her main complaint was feeling inadequate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> M2 is super rational and transparent about sex. However, on other topics she sometimes says stuff that is - so wack that it’s hard to even begin to grasp what is going on.
> 
> Because humor is DEFINITELY one of M2’s love languages, it tends to be the best method for anchoring her back to reality.
> 
> ...


Since I no longer allow my wife to shame my sexuality, being able to laugh about things has helped. 

I joke to my wife that she is so wonderful that any of my acts of self pleasure is just me trying to figure out what the heck she does that is so incredible. I'll hold up a finger in front of her, awkwardly wiggle it around, look confuddled while asking, "is this it?" She then giggles, tickles my nose with her finger, and brags that I'll never figure it out. 



She likes the idea that my adventures of self pleasure are a failure in comparison to being with her. Over the years painting that picture and being awkwardly honest about that has helped.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MaiChi said:


> Is LD something that can be fixed or is it the case that if she improved she would be forcing herself and therefore the situation would be a lot worse for both?


At this point I refrain from making my wife feel like she is broken and needs to be fixed. Instead I'll focus on simple things like sleep, diet, and exercise as she appreciates trying to take good care of our health. That in turn usually leads to her being more receptive to intimacy.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Hello, badsanta –
> 
> Thank you for posting this. I am in a similar situation to you. I am the “high desire” spouse with sex drive, and my wife has “low desire.” I desire sex every day, but my wife only desires sex once per month. Thankfully, we still have sex every few days, otherwise I would self-satisfy. My wife gets upset with me “self-satisfying” because she does not understand how sexually driven males are. She is very religious, and me taking matters into my own hands is simply not approved of, viewed as debauchery, viewed as a sin, viewed as weakness. If porn is involved, she finds it even more horrible and shamefully, so I try to avoid it, not always successfully. She sees it as a betrayal if we don’t only meet each other’s sexual needs together. *This is a major sore spot in my marriage.*
> 
> Take Care!


Given the choice between forbidden self satisfaction and a LD wife pushing herself well beyond her desired frequency for sex... something will eventually break down.

According to the research I have read, it is just as difficult for her frequency to increase as it is for yours to decrease. Self pleasure is often a healthy outlet while working to improve things in one's marriage. Here is a christian site on the topic:

https://site.themarriagebed.com/surveys/masturbation-in-marriage-951/

https://site.themarriagebed.com/sexuality/masturbation/why-didnt-god-call-it-sin/

I think religion views masturbation as a sin because A) it may deprive a partner of affection or B) it may be used as a form of birth control. Also almost all forms of sexual desire outside the context of man and wife have been historically seen by the church as a form of temptation and those that overcome it are somehow more pure. However if a man enjoys fantasizing about his own wife and views his own self pleasure as a compassionate way to alleviate issues over mismatched frequencies, I think you can actually pull out the bible and say, "show me where it says that is a sin?" Your wife will not find it.

As for "lust" it is perfectly OK to lust after one's own wife. That is in the bible.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> I so identify with you and your experiences. Let me share a few things I have learned from Marriage counseling with a sex therapist, with a marriage counselor, and with us joint reading a chapter a week of some marriage books and discussing what we read each week.
> 
> I am HD and she is LD. She has told me that when she was growing up Catholic and attended a convent high school, she was taught that masturbation was a serious sin. One that if she did, required her to go to confession and tell a middle aged male priest about her sexual urges. This she found to be beyond embarrassing. She would never be able to look at him or talk to the priest. Her family would be there when she got out of the confessional and see her red face and know she had sinned.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing! Quite a few parallels in my marriage. 

I don't think my wife has the same level of taught Catholic sexual disgust (she definitely has some), although I do know she has some body issues. Your insight is however helpful. Let me digest it for a while...

Thanks, 
Badsanta


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Hi BadSanta,

I happen to think that your wife is right. Masturbating is just a nasty little, sinful, shadow of actual sex... why should people waste their time with it? I'd be hurt if my wife were doing it and wonder what I was doing wrong.... Since women are typically more sensitive than men, it probably bothers them more than us callous dudes can imagine.

Why not just give it up... for her. She's worth it, her love and respect and all.

Sure, you'll be frustrated from time to time... Have a few wet dreams every now and then. Big deal... Life goes on. On your deathbed though you'll look back and say... I gave her 100%.

Isn't suffering for someone a bit the very definition of true love? Yeah, my wife is very beautiful, a bit LD and I * suffer* waiting for her!


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## Melll (Sep 16, 2019)

I’m female, I have a very high sex drive and unfortunately my partner would rather satisfy himself to porn and pretend he doesn’t have a sex drive so if this was the case for your wife I would understand why she was so against it, but from what I have read that doesn’t seem to be the case, if She doesn’t want sex but then says you can’t masturbate then that seems a bit harsh to me, I personally don’t want to no if my partner has done this but that’s because it has caused a lot of trouble in our relationship and it does offend me because he refuses to sleep with me but I’m open about it and if he asks, if she doesn’t want to no then you should explain that she shouldn’t ask if she isn’t going to like the answer, almost everyone does it, and if it isn’t to the point where it’s affecting your relationship or sex life then it’s normal


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think its the direction of the desire gap that matters. 

Taking care of yourself when your partner has turned you down seems fine to me. Taking care of yourself when you have turned down your partner should generally be avoided. (assuming your partner behaves in a generally good way and there is not some serious issue with them that makes the undesirable)




Melll said:


> I’m female, I have a very high sex drive and unfortunately my partner would rather satisfy himself to porn and pretend he doesn’t have a sex drive so if this was the case for your wife I would understand why she was so against it, but from what I have read that doesn’t seem to be the case, if She doesn’t want sex but then says you can’t masturbate then that seems a bit harsh to me, I personally don’t want to no if my partner has done this but that’s because it has caused a lot of trouble in our relationship and it does offend me because he refuses to sleep with me but I’m open about it and if he asks, if she doesn’t want to no then you should explain that she shouldn’t ask if she isn’t going to like the answer, almost everyone does it, and if it isn’t to the point where it’s affecting your relationship or sex life then it’s normal


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marduk said:


> In my first marriage, it was about control: not only would she not have sex with me, she ultimately demanded total control over my sexuality - because it was an inconvenience to her. And what do you do with inconveniences? You control them enough so they stop bothering you.
> 
> I suggest this is also happening here, albeit in a somewhat better way.
> 
> ...


 @Marduk while I find your post interesting, it seems to come from a place that assumes a spouse is actively trying to manipulate and inflict emotional harm. I would argue that may be true, but only to the extent that someone might also inflict self harm. For instance if a wife struggles with low self esteem and self doubt, then she may struggle to accept the idea that she is actually loved and convince herself that she is instead being used and build resentment. This in turn leads to acts of passive aggressiveness towards oneself and the relationship. A woman may not understand why she despises her spouse, but in reality it is the redirected hate she has for herself. 

Perhaps this is the reason some people enjoy one night stands. They hate themselves. Once someone has seen that, they can no longer stand to be around that person and the one night stand needs to go away. 

I am not 100% on that theory, but I find that helping a spouse learn to love and care for themselves tends to solve a lot of freaking problems. After all what is self love? It is an act of loving and caring for yourself as opposed to hating yourself. 

What is it.... 1st African American female to be elected U.S. Surgeon General. Joycelyn Elders. "If you want to experience being with someone that truly loves you, no one will ever love you more than you love yourself." 

Yet... some people do not like themselves and actively engage in self harm such as an eating disorder and denying themselves and those around them that try to love them.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Hi BadSanta,
> 
> I happen to think that your wife is right. Masturbating is just a nasty little, sinful, shadow of actual sex... why should people waste their time with it? I'd be hurt if my wife were doing it and wonder what I was doing wrong.... Since women are typically more sensitive than men, it probably bothers them more than us callous dudes can imagine.
> 
> ...


If we switch gears to Buddhism for a moment and observe that happiness is only relief from suffering, then we would need to first suffer to the full extent of our being in order to realize complete happiness. There are many Christian bible stories that would tend to agree with that notion.

Yet in relationships one has to be happy and then choose to share that with a spouse. If one chooses to suffer, then that is what you have to share with your wife at the end of the day. Alleviating a spouse's suffering in my opinion is not the same a choosing to share one's happiness in a loving way. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

badsanta said:


> @Marduk while I find your post interesting, it seems to come from a place that assumes a spouse is actively trying to manipulate and inflict emotional harm. I would argue that may be true, but only to the extent that someone might also inflict self harm. For instance if a wife struggles with low self esteem and self doubt, then she may struggle to accept the idea that she is actually loved and convince herself that she is instead being used and build resentment. This in turn leads to acts of passive aggressiveness towards oneself and the relationship. A woman may not understand why she despises her spouse, but in reality it is the redirected hate she has for herself.


You don't have to have the intention to harm to harm. I'm suggesting that her attempt to control your habits in an attempt to covertly reduce your sex drive - while leading you on that you'll get more sex as a consequence... Is manipulation 101. It just is.

It can be conscious or unconscious, but this is emotionally abusive behaviour. Pretend it isn't to your peril.



> Perhaps this is the reason some people enjoy one night stands. They hate themselves. Once someone has seen that, they can no longer stand to be around that person and the one night stand needs to go away.


I had one night stands and didn't hate myself. They weren't about a relationship, they were about wanting to have sex with someone.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The clash of wills over what constitutes an acceptable sex life - can produce an MRI of a relationship that is sort of fascinating.

All married people can be mapped into one of three buckets at any point in time:
1. Willing and able to leave the marriage if they feel sufficiently mistreated
2. Willing and able to rock the boat, right to the ragged edge of capsize, in an attempt to be prioritized as they believe they deserve
3. Determined to maintain peace at any price including the sacrifice of their happiness, self esteem and ultimately, over time the most precious thing any person possesses, the internal compass that points to true north 

I’ve always been in bucket (2). Probably worth mentioning that M2 is utterly impervious to vertigo or motion sickness. So I’m not inclined to thrash about in our little two person kayak when I feel mistreated. I just radiate less and less warmth, until I’m not radiating any at all. From a technical perspective, it is indistinguishable from a 180. Save for one small variation. 

If I become sufficiently aggrieved, I utilize my very flexible work schedule, and spatially relocate somewhere interesting for a bit. 

A few months ago, M2 began to trigger hard on an upcoming event. After 5 days of patiently waiting for her to regain some sense of equilibrium after she completely melted down over nothing - I went to Glacier National Park. Two days later she realized I wasn’t home (. It’s not my fault there’s no phone service in most of the park. Sheesh. I was gone for a week. 

I came home to be told: M2 wants a divorce. 
I said, ok. I’m not really surprised. You seem unhappy. 
M2 proceeded to tell me all of my shortcomings. Needless to say it was a looonnng conversation 
I said: life’s full of disappointment, clearly you’ve come to see me as the primary source of your disappointments, I can’t change that 

Days pass without much conversation. About a week after my return, M2 does something rather unexpected. She begins a conversation by saying: It’s me, I’m the problem, I’ve been the problem for our entire marriage. I'm a difficult, angry person with the longest list of narrow comfort zones in the world. 

I sat there quietly for a bit. Then I said: that simply isn’t true - this entire operation is an US thing - not a you thing. In between the friction, is mostly joy. 

Sometimes you have to let someone have some time without you - to give them a sense of what parting might really be like. 




CraigBesuden said:


> You agreed to monogamy, not celibacy. Your wife’s refusal to provide more frequent sex is the “betrayal” that leads to your masturbatory “betrayal.”
> 
> “Do not deny yourselves to each other, unless you first agree to do so for a while in order to spend your time in prayer; but then resume normal marital relations. In this way you will be kept from giving in to Satan's temptation because of your lack of self-control.” 1 Cor 7:5
> 
> In the old days, Christian women believed that denying sex to their husband is sinful. Not sure what they’re teaching these days.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Isn't this all part of the pre-marriage sex talk. IIRC, it went something like this.



> Do you self love?
> 
> Um, well, I'm guy, so yes, what about you?
> 
> ...


If I were a MC an exercise I'd have couples do is to get naked and sit on opposite ends of the couch and take care of themselves.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is why I think a persons sense of true north is so so valuable. 

During time periods where frequency is lower than I’d like we sometimes have situations where M2 initiates and I say: Tomorrow would be better, I already took care of myself. 

This is said in an easy factual tone sort of like: maybe we ought kayak tomorrow, forecast is for heavy thunderstorms today

And M2 responds same as she would to the kayak/weather scenario. That sounds good.....



Marduk said:


> You don't have to have the intention to harm to harm. I'm suggesting that her attempt to control your habits in an attempt to covertly reduce your sex drive - while leading you on that you'll get more sex as a consequence... Is manipulation 101. It just is.
> 
> It can be conscious or unconscious, but this is emotionally abusive behaviour. Pretend it isn't to your peril.
> 
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> This is why I think a persons sense of true north is so so valuable.
> 
> During time periods where frequency is lower than I’d like we sometimes have situations where M2 initiates and I say: Tomorrow would be better, I already took care of myself.
> 
> ...


I feel like I'm listening to really good jazz music while I read this.

I know there's something good there, and I just can't get to it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

CharlieParker said:


> Isn't this all part of the pre-marriage sex talk. IIRC, it went something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> If I were a MC an exercise I'd have couples do is to get naked and sit on opposite ends of the couch and take care of themselves.


I heard a speaker recently say that she gives the opposite advice from most marriage counsellors - to fix the sex life through fixing the relationship first. She advocates fixing the sex life first, because that tends to reduce friction in the relationship, elevate both side's satisfaction, and improve communication and good will at the same time.

I turned to my wife and said "So I'm not the only crazy one that thinks this."


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Marduk said:


> I heard a speaker recently say that she gives the opposite advice from most marriage counsellors - to fix the sex life through fixing the relationship first. She advocates fixing the sex life first, because that tends to reduce friction in the relationship, elevate both side's satisfaction, and improve communication and good will at the same time.
> 
> I turned to my wife and said "So I'm not the only crazy one that thinks this."


I was thinking the exercise more as a more pre-marital thing.

I never thought about it like that, but yes in the past we've on a couple of occasions tried to have more sex in order to fix things. IIRC mixed results.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I apologize. My bad. 

We all have an internal behavioral compass. For me, true north is the path one treads in pursuit of the golden rule. Am I doing unto you, as I would want you to do unto me. Equally, are you trying to do something to me, that you would find intolerable were it being done to you? 

So - M2 has never, ever overtly, covertly, consciously, sub or un consciously messed with me about manual override activities. The idea of such a thing is odd to me, in the sense that I can’t possibly imagine even mildly critiquing her if the situation were reversed and I couldn’t or wouldn’t keep up with her sex drive. 

And the reason I bring this up - is that marital gas lighting is a relatively common thing. And it often manifests by people trying to convince their partner that a particular behavior is wrong, solely because they dislike it. And that is a type of gas lighting. 

It’s almost impossible to gaslight someone who has a fully functioning internal compass. 





Marduk said:


> I feel like I'm listening to really good jazz music while I read this.
> 
> I know there's something good there, and I just can't get to it.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> I apologize. My bad.
> 
> We all have an internal behavioral compass. For me, true north is the path one treads in pursuit of the golden rule. Am I doing unto you, as I would want you to do unto me. Equally, are you trying to do something to me, that you would find intolerable were it being done to you?
> 
> ...


We've done a lot of work with PTSD after my wife's trauma. She has a very, very good therapist. Like, top tier, very published, all that kind of stuff.

And one of the things she got me to read was the seminal BPD book "I hate you, don't leave me." Which deeply upset my wife, but then she added that many if not most people have BPD tendencies when under certain kinds of stress, or triggered certain ways, and that didn't make them BPD. 

It made them have responses that are temporarily similar to BPD. But that they have to get called out when you see them, and once you see them you can't unsee them. Gaslighting is one - she would act out and then pretend like she hadn't, or that it wasn't as bad as it was, or whatever. And if I played into it, I would actually amplify the effect with the potential of escalating it and making it permanent. And it would stall the progress of her recovery, because she'd be acting on incorrect information.

And that goes for me (who had secondary PTSD as a result of her trauma), or anybody else under stress, too. Once you see this kind of manipulation - it's very easy to spot. And it doesn't mean it's intentional. 

But if it systematic, it's extremely dangerous, partly because it's normalized but also partly because the person doing it doesn't realize it.

What @badsanta's wife did was technically emotional abuse because the intention was to control him. But it doesn't mean that he has to leave her, and doesn't mean that she meant to be abusive, and doesn't mean that it can't be worked through. 

But it does need to be called out so that it's not normalized, or thought of as OK, and to insure that it stops.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> The clash of wills over what constitutes an acceptable sex life - can produce an MRI of a relationship that is sort of fascinating.
> 
> All married people can be mapped into one of three buckets at any point in time:
> 1. Willing and able to leave the marriage if they feel sufficiently mistreated
> ...


But isn't that moving you a bit closer to #1 than #2? Because to give someone that time without you means either you think you know that person so well that there's no chance that strategy could turn out badly, or you're willing to accept the risk that the time apart could mean the end of the relationship. Moving out, trial separations, that sort of thing... what are the statistics for success vs failure (assuming we define success as the realtionship continuing for some time)? 

That she actually told you she wanted a divorce... has she ever said that before? Have you said that to her? That's very different from a SO talking out loud about the subject, saying it's something that's crossed his or her mind. She said she wanted one, not that it was on the table. 

What I'm trying to figure out here is when a scenario is playing out Russian Roulette vs an effective strategy for dealing with discontent in a marriage.

I'm thinking you might be closer to a #1.5 by the way.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think the idea that suffering for someone is the definition of true love is a very destructive concept. Love should make both people happy or it isn't love, it is use and abuse. 

Why is masturbation sinful? Who does it harm? In particular how does it harm her if you are not denying her sex when she wants it.

What if she doesn't want 100% of your sex life but only 1%?


There are a great many things I'll regret on my death bed. There are a great many reasons I expect to go to the Christian hell if there is one, but masturbation is not on either list. 






CatholicDad said:


> Hi BadSanta,
> 
> I happen to think that your wife is right. Masturbating is just a nasty little, sinful, shadow of actual sex... why should people waste their time with it? I'd be hurt if my wife were doing it and wonder what I was doing wrong.... Since women are typically more sensitive than men, it probably bothers them more than us callous dudes can imagine.
> 
> ...


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I think the idea that suffering for someone is the definition of true love is a very destructive concept. Love should make both people happy or it isn't love, it is use and abuse.
> 
> Why is masturbation sinful? Who does it harm? In particular how does it harm her if you are not denying her sex when she wants it.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that someone practicing NFP may have a different view of foregoing sex than most. It would also be something of a shared suffering, since if kids are not in the immediate plan, the wife is deprived exactly at the time she is desiring sex most. So you're already dealing with a mindset that includes a lot of sacrifice when it comes to sex. 

Of course, the cynical person would wonder whether masturbation is more or less likely for those using NFP, due to deprivation when the desire is highest. 

Whatever, if both parties are on-board with it (no masturbation), no issue. Just as no issue if both parties think it's fine (to masturbate) and it doesn't run against their religious beliefs.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

An unofficial addendum, which may seem direct but perhaps related;

Does an LD W know what/when said HD H (generically speaking) is doing when H goes into different room, bedroom, and closes the door (or leaves it open) when some personal time is needed, right when personal time is had?

Also, generically speaking, does the LD W say anything when H comes out. 

Or for the common man, is discretion the better part if valor and does the average SO pick a time that there is at least plausible deniability for both, although both know what's transpiring?

I'm making an attempt at least, to be tactful here.

And this could obviously be for either SO.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am beginning to better understand your choice of screen name. 

It is true that some people slide from bucket two to bucket one, while still claiming to be in bucket two. This is like the guy in highschool who never breaks up with any girl. He just treats them worse and worse until they break up with him. I am certainly not consciously doing such a thing. 

As to the odds of dissolution - I estimated them to be low - but certainly not zero. Our oldest child was getting married and it turns out that the closer we got to the date, the more my wife thought back to our wedding. Short version of that is: My mother interfered with our wedding and I was extremely focused on work and allowed my mom to cause my bride to be - a lot of grief. So as we approached a nicely organized wedding with 2 sets of supportive parents - M2 felt steadily more aggrieved with ME. Unfortunately - I had no idea that this was happening. No idea that she was replaying an unfortunate series of events from 28 years ago. I only knew that she seemed frequently and very disproportionately angry at me. 

I view a marriage as analogous to a Binary Star system. An 'ideal' marriage is two equally massive stars and a perfectly circular orbit. I'd say - mass wise - we're comparable. About equally lovable. But the orbit is elliptical. Some timeframes we are closer and some times further apart. 

When I got back from Glacier - about a week later - when she had fully calmed down - she complained about me leaving without conversation. And I observed that it was a bit contradictory to treat someone as if they were invisible and then strenuously object to their absence. She said a bunch of clever and funny stuff, we both laughed and it seemed like normalcy had returned. 

Once I discovered the source of her angst (which happened only yesterday) I sent her a text:
*I want to renew our vows on our 30th anniversary. I don't have a time machine and cannot undo all the poor choices I made related to our wedding. But I wouldn't mind a second chance. 
*
That text produced a very, very positive response. Including some bit about me not having anything to apologize for. While untrue, it is a joyous thing to be forgiven our trespass. 

M2 - does have an unfortunate habit of using the divorce word every few years. She always apologizes later - and says she was just trying to get my attention. 

I sort of feel like I have now lived a very non-terrestrial marriage for almost my entire adult life. Ninety five percent of it - in Heaven - the balance in Hell - and close to zero of our time together at or near sea level. 





Casual Observer said:


> But isn't that moving you a bit closer to #1 than #2? Because to give someone that time without you means either you think you know that person so well that there's no chance that strategy could turn out badly, or you're willing to accept the risk that the time apart could mean the end of the relationship. Moving out, trial separations, that sort of thing... what are the statistics for success vs failure (assuming we define success as the realtionship continuing for some time)?
> 
> That she actually told you she wanted a divorce... has she ever said that before? Have you said that to her? That's very different from a SO talking out loud about the subject, saying it's something that's crossed his or her mind. She said she wanted one, not that it was on the table.
> 
> ...


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> An unofficial addendum, which may seem direct but perhaps related;
> 
> Does an LD W know what/when said HD H (generically speaking) is doing when H goes into different room, bedroom, and closes the door (or leaves it open) when some personal time is needed, right when personal time is had?
> 
> ...


I tell her. She’s always welcome, from the start, just don’t come in halfway, even to assist.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I am beginning to better understand your choice of screen name.
> 
> It is true that some people slide from bucket two to bucket one, while still claiming to be in bucket two. This is like the guy in highschool who never breaks up with any girl. He just treats them worse and worse until they break up with him. I am certainly not consciously doing such a thing.
> 
> ...


You and I are in somewhat parallel orbits ourselves, with the exception that it would never be my wife mentioning divorce, it had been me, bringing it up after the fact (that I had been thinking about it). And you and I are both dealing with issues from a very long time ago that basically put us facing a buzz saw without understanding what was behind everything... until suddenly it became clear. 

Furthering the parallel world stuff, if (I mean when, of course) my wife and I get through our current travail, I would like very much to renew our vows. It would be a literal starting over, discarding the unknown baggage that had been brought into our marriage. No, that's not right. The baggage won't be discarded, but rather a new relationship that takes it into account and allows us to fall in love all over again, with a slate wiped clean. That really sounds sappy. On the other hand, I've never seen you as a sappy kind of guy, so the idea that you would like to renew your vows gives me great hope.

Regarding understanding of my screen name, from my standpoint, it refers to my feeling like an information sponge. I read & absorb all manner of viewpoints on things. Until recently, much more observer than participant. Obviously I've become much more willing to jump into threads than I used to. But you may have a deeper understanding of why I chose that name than I know myself!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> I tell her. She’s always welcome, from the start, just don’t come in halfway, even to assist.


That's the way, imho.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM2020 said:


> Once I discovered the source of her angst (which happened only yesterday) I sent her a text:
> *I want to renew our vows on our 30th anniversary. I don't have a time machine and cannot undo all the poor choices I made related to our wedding. But I wouldn't mind a second chance.
> *


I wonder what would have happened if you had said: "I want this for me, and part of it for me is about making different choices about how I handled it for you."

Meaning it's not just about you doing it to please her - it's about you wanting something for yourself that includes a recognition of how you'd make different choices today.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Marduk said:


> What @badsanta's wife did was technically emotional abuse because the intention was to control him. But it doesn't mean that he has to leave her, and doesn't mean that she meant to be abusive, and doesn't mean that it can't be worked through.
> 
> But it does need to be called out so that it's not normalized, or thought of as OK, and to insure that it stops.


When she did admit that she hoped that eliminating my self pleasure would bring down my desire levels, I did call her out on that. I also lectured her on the fact that I would get very needy and that it would hurt way worse if she chose to ignore my advances. She seemed dumbfounded when I told her this, but it also demonstrates her lack of understanding/empathy towards my sexuality. According to my wife the more you go without an orgasm the less you miss it or need it. I explained to her for a male with a healthy libido that this is simply not true, but actually the opposite.

I later found her researching masturbation (stumbled across her browser history) and I confronted her about that. She admitted that what she had researched did indicate that masturbation was often attributed to normal and healthy behaviors. 

She however still feels very uncomfortable about the topic. She admitted to trying a few times herself but claimed as a result that it made her feel extremely angry towards me as a result and made her want less intimacy. So she claims it is just best for her not to do that, and she abstains for the sake of our marriage. I don't fully understand that...

...unless that gets into what @Young at Heart says and that comes across as me advocating for her to sin which she then feels compelled to confess at church in order to receive communion. My wife is Catholic and she does tend to get resentful for things that take her away from the church. The main one being that she feels Americans as a whole have absolutely changed the Catholic faith into something that is just too different from the way she grew up Catholic. I have visited her country many times, attended mass there and in comparison she is correct. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

badsanta said:


> When she did admit that she hoped that eliminating my self pleasure would bring down my desire levels, I did call her out on that. I also lectured her on the fact that I would get very needy and that it would hurt way worse if she chose to ignore my advances. She seemed dumbfounded when I told her this, but it also demonstrates her lack of understanding/empathy towards my sexuality. According to my wife the more you go without an orgasm the less you miss it or need it. I explained to her for a male with a healthy libido that this is simply not true, but actually the opposite.
> 
> I later found her researching masturbation (stumbled across her browser history) and I confronted her about that. She admitted that what she had researched did indicate that masturbation was often attributed to normal and healthy behaviors.
> 
> ...


I'd recommend a different approach.

"Wife, what you did was manipulative, self serving, and deceitful. You're also attempting to put your sexual hang ups onto me. I love you and I'm here with you, but all of this stops right now forever. You don't get to control my sexuality and you don't get to control my body any more than I get to control yours."

And I'd end the discussion right there and give her some space after that. Just basic boundary setting without an attempt to empathize or soften it - because those things from an operant conditioning perspective are actually reinforcing the wrong behaviour. But without an ultimatum.


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## woodyh (Oct 23, 2015)

I think masturbation is something married couples need to discuss. There is NOTHING wrong with doing it as long as it doesn't take the place of having sex with your spouse. Most men have a desire to have a release at least 2 to 4 times a week, if there spouse isn't up to it, then masturbation is completely normal. By being more open about it, the man won't get caught in a "oh, you want sex tonight? I just took care of that before you got home". 

Ask for sex first, if spouse says no, then do it. We call it right of first refusal, if she says no, then masturbation is ok.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

woodyh said:


> Ask for sex first, if spouse says no, then do it. We call it right of first refusal, if she says no, then masturbation is ok.


Makes sense. Unless she wants the option of sex at night, but then doesn’t want you masturbating when she’s tired and wants to go to sleep.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

woodyh said:


> By being more open about it, the man won't get caught in a "oh, you want sex tonight? I just took care of that before you got home".


That is probably one of the hugest challenges a HD husband faces with a LD wife that has unpredictable receptiveness.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> *So in the dynamics of a marriage where the woman is LD and the male is HD, why is it that the wife gets upset or uncomfortable about a husband choosing to enjoy self pleasure after the she rejects his initiation? * I have seen this same pattern occur in many threads for other marriages with similar LD/HD dynamics.




It could be various reasons. My guess is that the majority of the time, the LD partner tends to use sex/frequency of sex as a tool to keep the HD partner in check/exhibit a form of control. It is the one thing that she can be sure of that you need from her.

I don’t think it’s a problem in itself, only if it goes completely out of balance. You always have one partner wanting something more than the other, whether it’s sex or anything else. So there’s a bit of give or take. I bet there are other areas in your relationship where you hold the keys.

One could reverse the question: why do men feel inadequate/insecure when they notice this?

I also wouldn’t necessarily take everything at face value what she says. So for example if she says something like “how could you possibly be fantasising about me?” doesn’t mean that she rejects the notion that you do and isn’t secretly flattered by it. It could just be a flirtatious game (fishing for compliments, need for reassurance). I usually just play along. She would otherwise feel like she is coming across as naive/too trusting if she just believes every compliment you say. (Not sure, my wife would necessarily take her being my latest wanking material as a compliment though...More like an admission that I may have ruined her favourite towel again  Though at times she does...Depends on her moods). Dunno. Women are sometimes mysterious creatures and it’s fine like that (for me)...it has been fine for centuries/millennia (for most men)....
Don’t overthink?



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> At this point I refrain from making my wife feel like she is broken and needs to be fixed. Instead I'll focus on simple things like sleep, diet, and exercise as she appreciates trying to take good care of our health. That in turn usually leads to her being more receptive to intimacy.



And I don’t think you should. It’s normal if there are slight mismatches. I don’t even view those things as mismatches. Male and female libidos are generally different, dependant on so many things; hormones, personality, what she had for breakfast that day...
Many women like to be ‘claimed’ and psychologically don’t ‘give it up’ too easily. In many instances it doesn’t mean they are less horny, they just show it differently.
In many instances, i really dislike the terms LD/HD. I find them somehow demeaning to those women; just because they don’t undress and bend over (exaggeration), doesn’t mean they like or enjoy sex less, when the circumstances are right for them. If you need to jump through hoops every time, it may not be worth the bother, it in majority of relationships (that i can tell), the mismatches are really not even mismatches, but mostly misunderstandings.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> it in majority of relationships (that i can tell), the mismatches are really not even mismatches, but mostly misunderstandings.


As the more time passes I find myself coming more and more to that conclusion.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

badsanta said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > Hi BadSanta,
> ...


Sometimes, I think I am suffering to the "full extent" in waiting however when we reconnect I also feel about the highest joy possible. It makes waiting, worth it.

I think masturbation diminishes the suffering, but it also diminishes the joyful reunion. I think your wife gets that... you don't?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> Sometimes, I think I am suffering to the "full extent" in waiting however when we reconnect I also feel about the highest joy possible. It makes waiting, worth it.
> 
> I think masturbation diminishes the suffering, but it also diminishes the joyful reunion. I think your wife gets that... you don't?




You could also enjoy the reunion while at the same time eliminating the suffering too  
Otherwise you might end up suffering the reunion...as it tends to happen to many people that suppress themselves too much.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I think the idea that suffering for someone is the definition of true love is a very destructive concept. Love should make both people happy or it isn't love, it is use and abuse.
> 
> Why is masturbation sinful? Who does it harm? In particular how does it harm her if you are not denying her sex when she wants it.
> 
> ...


Suffering for others is what a soldier does on the battlefield, women in labor, dad's toiling to provide for their families... Many examples in the natural world.

It's also what Jesus did on the cross in expiation of our sins. 

I suppose your argument for masturbating is that it relieves suffering? In Bad Santa's case masturbating is causing some anguish (form of suffering) for his wife. So who should suffer here: him, her, or both? Sounds like everyone here thinks she should suck it up and deal with it... Just so he can get his little personal freak on? Absurd.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't think people get to declare that something makes them "suffer". If my wife talking to friends makes me "suffer" I don't get to tell her to isolate herself



CatholicDad said:


> Suffering for others is what a soldier does on the battlefield, women in labor, dad's toiling to provide for their families... Many examples in the natural world.
> 
> It's also what Jesus did on the cross in expiation of our sins.
> 
> I suppose your argument for masturbating is that it relieves suffering? In Bad Santa's case masturbating is causing some anguish (form of suffering) for his wife. So who should suffer here: him, her, or both? Sounds like everyone here thinks she should suck it up and deal with it... Just so he can get his little personal freak on? Absurd.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Or


Baby,
If you accuse me of lying about how much I desire you, I’m going to spank you. 





InMyPrime said:


> It could be various reasons. My guess is that the majority of the time, the LD partner tends to use sex/frequency of sex as a tool to keep the HD partner in check/exhibit a form of control. It is the one thing that she can be sure of that you need from her.
> 
> I don’t think it’s a problem in itself, only if it goes completely out of balance. You always have one partner wanting something more than the other, whether it’s sex or anything else. So there’s a bit of give or take. I bet there are other areas in your relationship where you hold the keys.
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Sometimes, I think I am suffering to the "full extent" in waiting however when we reconnect I also feel about the highest joy possible. It makes waiting, worth it.
> 
> I think masturbation diminishes the suffering, but it also diminishes the joyful reunion. I think your wife gets that... you don't?


I completely agree with you with regards for the potential to make sex spectacular, but the problem lies when you look at the relationship holistically. 

If one avoids masturbation and suffers while waiting on a spouse to become receptive, that suffering can create ill will or resentment. For example if I have been waiting a week and my wife chooses to take a two hour phone call from a distant relative instead of making time for me, that stings! In return I start feeling resentful as if she does not understand me or appreciate my efforts to wait. Those feeling build up and come time for sexual intimacy I bring with me a lot of resentment mixed into that passion that I have to try and let it go and forgive her. That pattern the repeats again and again. 

To me getting angry, resentful, and feeling misunderstood as a pretense to all sexual activity does NOT lend itself very well to feeling loved and cared for in the relationship. Sex should just NOT be that way. 

Yes patience is love! But one has to be patient and merciful unto themselves as well. 

During a discussion about parenting on this topic, my wife said that, "some people choose to know themselves so that they can share that with someone they love. Others choose to let the one they love be the only one to discover those things." While that view does seem heathy is does not address the notion of leaving a partner wanting and without in a way that causes them to suffer. 

Would you purposely make your wife suffer just so sex could be a little better for you?

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> Suffering for others is what a soldier does on the battlefield, women in labor, dad's toiling to provide for their families... Many examples in the natural world.
> 
> It's also what Jesus did on the cross in expiation of our sins.
> 
> I suppose your argument for masturbating is that it relieves suffering? In Bad Santa's case masturbating is causing some anguish (form of suffering) for his wife. So who should suffer here: him, her, or both? Sounds like everyone here thinks she should suck it up and deal with it... Just so he can get his little personal freak on? Absurd.


“Getting his freak on” diminishes the whole thing. Sex is beautiful and powerful, and Bad Santa gives a tremendous gift to his wife by denying his need to the extent he can. For you to demean it with such a phrase is, I think, wrong.

Actually, whether you want to argue this on secular or religious grounds, the result is the same. You seem to be coming to some extent from a “sex is dirty” perspective, and I don’t think that’s appropriate or true.

The bible instructs wives and husbands not to abstain but to meet each other’s needs in this area. It warns that if this isn’t done it creates temptation.

Both Bad Santa and Mrs Claus have valid points of view about sex. Bad Santa is entitled to want more, and his wife is entitled to want less. I think that what matters is for both people to come to the party and look for a compromise they can live with. But if his wife refuses to meet his need, refuses to allow him to sleep with anyone else, and even refuses him permission to masturbate, where is she compromising (from a secular point of view) or obeying Christian teaching (from a biblical point of view)?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

badsanta said:


> During a discussion about parenting on this topic, my wife said that, "some people choose to know themselves so that they can share that with someone they love. Others choose to let the one they love be the only one to discover those things."


Had my wife said that, I would have replied, “I completely agree, and I wish you had wanted to do that.”


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> I think masturbation diminishes the suffering, but it also diminishes the joyful reunion.


It's just sex, there's no need for sacrifice.

Even after being together through 23+ years my wife and I still share sex 4-9x a week, every week of the year. Plus I masturbate 6-12x a week, every week of the year as well.

I prefer to have fun, while your mileage will vary of course.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

When in doubt I find it easier to just start kissing her before bending her over something and pulling her knickers down.

If you want frequent enthusiastic sex, you ought to frequently show high sexual desire.


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## woodyh (Oct 23, 2015)

badsanta said:


> That is probably one of the hugest challenges a HD husband faces with a LD wife that has unpredictable receptiveness.


You are right and that is mostly why I became more open about sexual needs and masturbating. My wife used to be very unpredictable and I didn't want to do it, then later she wanted sex. Being up front about eliminates that problem. She even joins me occasionally!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

woodyh said:


> You are right and that is mostly why I became more open about sexual needs and masturbating. My wife used to be very unpredictable and I didn't want to do it, then later she wanted sex. Being up front about eliminates that problem. She even joins me occasionally!


I have tried to be open and up front for her only to be upset and request that I just be discrete so that she does not have to know. To her it is as if me being open about it comes across as an extremely inappropriate joke, however I am not laughing about it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I'll share some further insight...

In a recent conversation with my wife, she stated that she still believes that masturbation is wrong. She claims that no matter how much or how little sex we have in our marriage that she feels I will still desire to masturbate (NOTE: that means even if I desire to do it and abstain from it) and it reflects her inability to ever satisfy me. 

My conclusion which I am still digesting is if she indeed believes that I can never be satisfied then her next best course of action is to only ever be receptive when she knows she will enjoy it herself and we can "share" that together. Anything beyond that is give and take which makes her feel used and pressured. She does NOT want me pressuring her because she believes there is no end and I will just pressure for more and more once I get it. In the meantime she does not want to be reminded that I am being held well below my desired frequency and that it is creating resentment I must overcome when we are together.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I'll share some further insight...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why do you believe you need to take ownership of her issues?

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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

is she contolling in other ways? She sounds controlling, and this is just a tool that she uses to control things. 

Whether she's jealous or feelng shame, the end result is that your sex life is governed by your wife. She wants you to feel shame when you masturbate. But, she wants to make all of the rules when it comes to sex. Sex really should be a loving, passionate, exciting thing. Of course, there are times when one or the other spouse isn't in the mood and that should be respected, but sounds like some of you walk on egg shells for your spouses, and it really should stop.

I think that if your wife rarely wants to have sex, then she shouldn't be upset that you self pleasure now and again. Again, it's not about masturbating if you ask me, it's about control. If you stopped masturbating, she'd likely find a new way to control you.

You might want to test out that theory. lol


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> She claims that no matter how much or how little sex we have in our marriage that she feels I will still desire to masturbate



And what’s your answer? Will you? 

She is using women’s logics on you You can’t win. She gives you some circular material to ponder about, to leave her alone long enough to recover her legs from all the humping. “here are some puzzles for you to solve...Once you figure it out, i have a prize for you!” (More puzzles).
Check mate 

Just take the sex when you can get it....Use your hand(s) when you can’t. That’s how it always worked...All this thinking, is not going to get you laid as much and going to cause spermotoxia!




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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I'll share some further insight...
> 
> In a recent conversation with my wife, she stated that she still believes that masturbation is wrong. She claims that no matter how much or how little sex we have in our marriage that she feels I will still desire to masturbate (NOTE: that means even if I desire to do it and abstain from it) and it reflects her inability to ever satisfy me.
> 
> My conclusion which I am still digesting is if she indeed believes that I can never be satisfied then her next best course of action is to only ever be receptive when she knows she will enjoy it herself and we can "share" that together. Anything beyond that is give and take which makes her feel used and pressured. She does NOT want me pressuring her because she believes there is no end and I will just pressure for more and more once I get it. In the meantime she does not want to be reminded that I am being held well below my desired frequency and that it is creating resentment I must overcome when we are together.


That’s no way to live, sorry. 

Post menopause we are no longer well matched drive wise, pretty close but not as perfect when younger. “Naked time”, 2 or 3 times a month, has helped us a lot. No expectations of sex, but we’ll see what happens. And something often does, but if not she’ll provide the eye candy and a lading zone. (I’m pretty sure Mrs Claus wouldn’t go for it, but putting it out for others.)


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

badsanta said:


> In a recent conversation with my wife, she stated that she still believes that masturbation is wrong.


A potential response: "I hear you, but I don't think it's wrong and I'm neither going to justify that or enable you to put your hangups on me. We are not going to discuss this further."



> She claims that no matter how much or how little sex we have in our marriage that she feels I will still desire to masturbate (NOTE: that means even if I desire to do it and abstain from it) and it reflects her inability to ever satisfy me.


A potential response: "No human being can ever fulfill another human being 100%. If that's what you expect from me, you're going to be sorely disappointed. And I don't expect that from you."

She is making this all about her insecurities. It allows her to move the goalposts wherever she wants so that she can feel secure. Because I think none of this is about masturbation and all of it is about power: the power to control you so she can feel secure.

Do not engage. Do not justify. What you do with yourself is your business. She doesn't own your sexuality.

Think about it another way: it's currently easier for her to emotionally manipulate you than it is for her to be open to have sex more. They both have the same goal: she gets to feel secure about the marriage. She is pursuing one while pretending to do the other. And she's doing it, because it's worked for her. She literally gets to have her cake and eat it too.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I wish I could like this twice.

Why do you acquiesce to this nonsense?

You are allowing her issues to determine your frame.

How about a simple: 

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Or...

"I see it differently."

Or (certainly more inflammatory)...

"My body, my choice."

I understand you are trying to be collaborative, but that slippery slope can transition you into the very ****ty territory of subverting what matters to you in the name of collaboration. 

Never mind the mind ****ery that comes along with someone effectively shaming and/or guilting you over your sexuality.


Marduk said:


> A potential response: "I hear you, but I don't think it's wrong and I'm neither going to justify that or enable you to put your hangups on me. We are not going to discuss this further."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> In a recent conversation with my wife, she stated that she still believes that masturbation is wrong. She claims that no matter how much or how little sex we have in our marriage that she feels I will still desire to masturbate (NOTE: that means even if I desire to do it and abstain from it) and it reflects her inability to ever satisfy me.


"Even though you don't like it, my sexuality is healthy and from today I am done letting you shame me for it."


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## woodyh (Oct 23, 2015)

Your wife isn't the only wife that feels no matter how little sex they have with their husband, the husband shouldn't be masturbating ever. 

I think it is ridiculous that a spouse would not want their partner to masturbate if they are refusing sex. I think some of the happiest couples share both full sex and they masturbate when they feel the need.
Nothing wrong with it to fill the void, as long as it doesn't replace sex with your partner.

I also think some post menopausal women are less sexual and some how expect their husband to be the same way. For most men, not all, it doesn't work that way. Men still have a pretty strong sex drive in their 50's, 60's and 70's and beyond.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

> In a recent conversation with my wife, she stated that she still believes that masturbation is wrong. She claims that no matter how much or how little sex we have in our marriage that she feels I will still desire to masturbate (NOTE: that means even if I desireMy conclusion which I am still digesting is if she indeed believes that I can never be satisfied then her next best course of action is to only ever be receptive when she knows she will enjoy it herself and we can "share" that together. Anything beyond that is give and take which makes her feel used and pressured. She does NOT want me pressuring her because she believes there is no end and I will just pressure for more and more once I get it. In the meantime she does not want to be reminded that I am being held well below my desired frequency and that it is creating resentment I must overcome when we are together.


Wow. Imagine if I did that for cleaning the house. No matter what I do she will find it insufficient (you didn’t finish the job), so I won’t even bother trying. Just clean it once a month or so when the dishes are piled sky high. Anything more than that would be me being used and pressured. My W would flip out.

Your wife’s best course of action is to schedule sex 3-4 times a week. Meet in the middle.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

badsanta said:


> In the meantime she does not want to be reminded that I am being held well below my desired frequency and that it is creating resentment I must overcome when we are together.


Is the relationship getting better or worse because of this, from your perspective? If the resentment is growing, how long can things go on this way?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Is the relationship getting better or worse because of this, from your perspective? If the resentment is growing, how long can things go on this way?


That last is the key question. Are you willing to divorce over the lack of sex and the prohibition of masturbating? Some of us are not.
If you are not willing to divorce over it, then it is very likely you will spend the rest of your life frustrated and resentful. Maybe some day your wife will get tired of living with a frustrated and resentful person and do you the favor of leaving you. But if she is willing to stay despite you always being in a crappy mood, you will remain stuck together.

People here can give you tools and advice on how to revive a dead bedroom marriage. But if you are not willing to leave, good chance none of them will work.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Thanks for everyone's feedback. I have been doing a great deal of reading of David Schnarch's thoughts on a "two-choice dilemma." Essentially that gets into understanding situations where all possible outcomes seem bad. Do I pressure her for more sex when she claims she can not tolerate anymore or do I say that I will not tolerate her feeling too pressured for sex in our marriage and it is over?

Dr. Schnarch would suggest that couples naturally tend to avoid this conflict and try to find all possible ways to just maintain the status quo. At the heart of the matter is indeed a conflict that needs to be addressed. Perhaps it is a bad childhood relationship with one's own parents that is manifesting itself somehow in the marital relationship. So as I held my ground and insisted that sexual intimacy in our marriage should be a place of love and healing and that I would not tolerate her feeling pressured, I insisted she explain to me where this "pressure" comes from. I explained how much I wanted to be with her and how I abstain from making advances has become the rule as opposed to the exception. I also explained that her feeling pressured is her problem and that I would help her with if she needed me to but that I would not tolerate it anymore. 

I did not share what I had been reading or what the likely result would be. But thirty minutes after arguing she claimed that, "she would not allow me to control her life as if I were her father!" ...and out came this HUGE freaking list of my personality traits that somehow directly or indirectly control every aspect of her life. Many of which just have to do with life being really crappy and us struggling to do the best we can. Some of which I do admit are faults I have that even I despise and want to improve, but she had just given up thinking that is who I am (these faults are unrelated to masturbation). So of her big list of complaints of my bad personality traits, I picked one that I genuinely want her to help me improve. It boils down to being a better boyfriend to her and trying new things (travel, restaurants, just getting out of the house) as opposed to being a grump and complaining about how we spend money (just like her father would do to her and her mom).

So I explained to my wife the sheer stress I have when we get in the car and it is all on me to come up with some magical destination that is going to be new and fun for her. I told her that was an impossible task for me and that I got a tremendous amount of anxiety trying to make her happy when it comes to making travel plans. She complained that when she goes somewhere without me that she and the kids have so much fun without me there. I claimed I had the perfect solution. I accused her of being a bad girlfriend and that when she wanted to go out and do something fun that I wanted to be the one in the passenger seat and just go along for the ride not having to worry about what our plans were. She then claimed that was impossible because I was an aggressive "back seat driver" and would still try and control her. I smiled and told her no that I just wanted to be like a kid myself and have fun and that I am tired of trying to be her dad.

My wife was like, "WTF are you serious or is this just a ploy to get more sex!" I said for her to try me and that at the end of the day every man just wants to be a kid again and have fun without having to worry about making everyone else happy. I told her that you have no idea how happy it would make me to NOT have to pick out what new restaurant that she wanted to try and for once just get to go along for the ride and enjoy trying something new. So she already has plans to put this to the test! 

I got up (as it was late) and told her that I was not going to pressure her even though I wanted to be with her and that I would go watch TV instead. She told me to lock the door and that I could not leave the room!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Thanks for everyone's feedback. I have been doing a great deal of reading of David Schnarch's thoughts on a "two-choice dilemma." Essentially that gets into understanding situations where all possible outcomes seem bad. Do I pressure her for more sex when she claims she can not tolerate anymore or do I say that I will not tolerate her feeling too pressured for sex in our marriage and it is over?


These are not the only options...
Your best option is to not pressure her for sex (within reason) and not let her make you feel bad if you ‘help yourself’ solo.
And I would try not to overthink it, if at all possible...






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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Thanks for everyone's feedback. I have been doing a great deal of reading of David Schnarch's thoughts on a "two-choice dilemma." Essentially that gets into understanding situations where all possible outcomes seem bad. Do I pressure her for more sex when she claims she can not tolerate anymore or do I say that I will not tolerate her feeling too pressured for sex in our marriage and it is over?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why don’t you discuss how often you roughly want to have it, ideally, and tell her that in order for her not to feel pressured, just to come to you for it: you will always be available. 
She feels pressure from you, you feel pressured from her rejection, then the most logical thing is to have her come to you, whenever she feels like it, which should be some predetermined amount of time during the week, like 3-4 times or whatever would be feasible.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> Why don’t you discuss how often you roughly want to have it, ideally, and tell her that in order for her not to feel pressured, just to come to you for it: you will always be available.
> She feels pressure from you, you feel pressured from her rejection, then the most logical thing is to have her come to you, whenever she feels like it, which should be some predetermined amount of time during the week, like 3-4 times or whatever would be feasible.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've made it clear to her what my following frequencies would be:



ideal
minimum to not feel resentful
amount of time I can handle being in a crisis where life is messy and all sexual intimacy has to go on the back burner

For the past year we have been toggling back and forth between the last two and she thought that was enough. 

She says that if I can be less of a grump and enjoy getting out of the house to try new things that we should be able to fall somewhere in between the first two frequencies. So I am going to give that a chance to play out. I'm also going to put some effort into trying to come up with ideas of fun ways to get out of the house because I anticipate she will feel very pressured to make me happy when we go out just I have to make her happy for so many years. 

Ideally if you get into the car with a spouse and the question arises of, "OK where do you want to go?" It is nice to have some predetermined answers or general suggestions of things one would generally like to do. So when and if she asks me that, I am not planning to just throw all the responsibility onto her. I am curious to see if she indeed knows what she wants and if she can just share that with me in a way for us to have fun together as a couple dating wise and getting out of the house.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I've made it clear to her what my following frequencies would be:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Try to not let her use sex frequency as a bargaining chip for other things (eg not being a grump); treat and sort out all issues independently of each other wherever possible.
What a pain in the ass marriages are...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> Try to not let her use sex frequency as a bargaining chip for other things (eg not being a grump); treat and sort out all issues independently of each other wherever possible.
> What a pain in the ass marriages are...


I agree with you on that. In the past she has used the idea of increasing frequency if only I could do A), B), C), or D). And when I would overcome all those things she would then give me a new list of E), F), G), and H) as to why we were still not being able to connect with one another. 

So my expectations here are realistic. When my wife asked me to go out somewhere nice for lunch today, I thought to myself, "OK I am going to let her drive and see where we end up!" Come time to go she told me to drive and pick out where to go. I suggested somewhere new (as I had been working on my list in case she asked me). She didn't like that idea and rejected it, so we went to one of our routine lunch choices per her suggestion. I am not going to call her out on that, but just wow! 

If anything I expect things to get worse before they get better, but at least we have an interesting experiment we have agreed to try. I do need to work on being less of a grump, so I am happy to do that regardless. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Wow. So if you are a "good boy" and behave like she wants, she'll dole out a treat (more sex)? 

That is totally and completely mind blowingly not healthy sexuality.

If a man would "treat" me to more sex only if I performed some trick (some non sexual behavior of mine he wanted to modify) I'd never want to have sex with him again.

Her plan reminds me of dog training.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Wow. So if you are a "good boy" and behave like she wants, she'll dole out a treat (more sex)?
> 
> That is totally and completely mind blowingly not healthy sexuality.
> 
> ...


OMG, I am totally with you. The psychology book I am reading has a chapter on exactly this and goes into detail about all the things wrong with it and how to upend this behavior in a way that triggers a crisis (a crisis that should prove useful for further self development). 

The book even goes a step further to describe some spouses that take it to the next level and engage in this opportunity offensively, hide the fact they had a good orgasm, and then use that as an opportunity to inflict pain by complaining that the sex was horrible. Holy cow, that is way beyond anything that I would do, but describes how intense the dynamics of this standoff can get in terms of marital sadism. It also goes onto describe couples that stay locked in this battle for too long develop a sense of eroticism that can become dependent upon marital sadism. A wife that sexually enjoys her husband being desperate and deprived and a husband that sexually enjoys trying to deny his wife that exact pleasure. What a hot mess, but I can totally see it playing out in couples that have been banging monogamously for many decades! 

I don't think dog training ever reaches this level. But now that you mention it my MIL grew up with a Chihuahua that when it got angry it would pee in her jewelry box. Holy crap, are dogs smarter than humans?

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

For what it’s worth, your most recent posts seem really positive to me. Many of the issues in my marriage seem ultimately to have arisen from her feelings of parental control and me being seen as continuing that, so that part resonates. My wife now recognises the real issue, and is getting help to work through it. Makes a difference in so many areas, including the bedroom. 

Marriage is complicated.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Wazza said:


> For what it’s worth, your most recent posts seem really positive to me. Many of the issues in my marriage seem ultimately to have arisen from her feelings of parental control and me being seen as continuing that, so that part resonates. My wife now recognises the real issue, and is getting help to work through it. Makes a difference in so many areas, including the bedroom.
> 
> *Marriage is complicated.*



Even though marriage is complicated, I tend to enjoy the challenges. When a breakthrough is made, the level of connection is way beyond anything imaginable.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Even though marriage is complicated, I tend to enjoy the challenges. When a breakthrough is made, the level of connection is way beyond anything imaginable.


Indeed it is....

... except sometimes it turns out the "breakthrough" was false or perceived rather than actual, which then recomplicates things.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Indeed it is....
> 
> ... except sometimes it turns out the "breakthrough" was false or perceived rather than actual, which then recomplicates things.


Adds to the fun.

We’ve had decades together, and some tremendous highs and lows. Maybe you need the lows to appreciate the highs. But I do think persistence brings rewards...sometimes anyway. More often than not for me.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> .....I have been doing a great deal of reading of David Schnarch's thoughts on a "two-choice dilemma." .....Dr. Schnarch would suggest that couples naturally tend to avoid this conflict and try to find all possible ways to just maintain the status quo. At the heart of the matter is indeed a conflict that needs to be addressed.
> 
> .....But thirty minutes after arguing she claimed that, "she would not allow me to control her life as if I were her father!" ...and out came this HUGE freaking list of my personality traits that somehow directly or indirectly control every aspect of her life.
> 
> ...


I hope you smiled at her, locked the door and said yes dominatrix!

Seriously, I think Schnarch has better insights than the two choice dilemma. Rather than avoiding conflict he seems to encourage or promote the pain and value of emotional discomfort associated with emotional growth when a couple is in conflict. Have you read Intimacy and Desire?



badsanta said:


> I've made it clear to her what my following frequencies would be:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





badsanta said:


> ...... When my wife asked me to go out somewhere nice for lunch today, I thought to myself, "OK I am going to let her drive and see where we end up!" Come time to go *she told me to drive and pick out where to go*. I suggested somewhere new (as I had been working on my list in case she asked me). *She didn't like that idea and rejected it*, so we went to one of our routine lunch choices per her suggestion. I am not going to call her out on that, but just wow!
> 
> If anything I expect things to get worse before they get better, but at least we have an interesting experiment we have agreed to try. *I do need to work on being less of a grump*, so I am happy to do that regardless.
> 
> ...


My wife and I have had that same problem. She will say lets go out to dinner, you pick the place. I say great and then say where we are going and she will say no, I don't want that kind of food.

At times I have said, I thought you asked me to pick a place? I did, and that is where I am going to eat my dinner. I will park the car there and if I need to get an Uber to drive me home, so be it. You can take yourself and the car to any restaurant you want or drive home. You asked me to choose and this is my choice. At that point she will either flip out or ask why I am being so mean to her. I have then asked her why she would tell me to pick a place, if she didn't want me to "pick a place."

I think it comes down to either power/control or two expecting me to read her mind and anticipate her every desire. Neither are healthy.

Our compromise is now when she says "pick a place" I will asked her, do you really mean that or would you like me to suggest a couple of options and you can let me know the one you like best? That second approach has seemed to help.

Good luck.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> I hope you smiled at her, locked the door and said yes dominatrix!
> 
> Seriously, I think Schnarch has better insights than the two choice dilemma. Rather than avoiding conflict he seems to encourage or promote the pain and value of emotional discomfort associated with emotional growth when a couple is in conflict. Have you read Intimacy and Desire?


As for when my wife asked me to lock the door and not leave the room, we do have a unique power struggle that plays into those moments. Her admitting that she wanted me to lock the door is her way of asking me to unleash the beast. Her admitting she wants it is something she struggles with doing. I imagine what plays out in her mind is, "can the idiot not take a hint!" ...and no, NO I am not taking a hint. You want it, you are going to have to ask for it! It is not that I need to hear her say that for my own validation, but I want her to feel confident enough to know that she can ask for things as opposed to me making all the decisions as to what happens and when. 

Afterwards she told me that I should do what I did to her ALL the time and as much as I wanted. The part that I don't think she puts together is that it mostly worked because she finally got the courage to ask for what SHE wanted and WHEN she wanted it. 

I saw another thread where you mentioned that book and got a copy. I have just started going through it.



> My wife and I have had that same problem. She will say lets go out to dinner, you pick the place. I say great and then say where we are going and she will say no, I don't want that kind of food.
> 
> At times I have said, I thought you asked me to pick a place? I did, and that is where I am going to eat my dinner. I will park the car there and if I need to get an Uber to drive me home, so be it. You can take yourself and the car to any restaurant you want or drive home. You asked me to choose and this is my choice. At that point she will either flip out or ask why I am being so mean to her. I have then asked her why she would tell me to pick a place, if she didn't want me to "pick a place."
> 
> ...


The dynamics of that scenario seem so useful. Awkwardly I found myself thinking of a similar argument that my wife and I get into. I will ask her if she wants to spend some quality time together and have me rub her back. Often she will snarl at me and reply, "is that all you want? Or do you want sex? Why don't you just be honest and let me know you are needing sex?" In all honesty I am just wanting her to rub my back, but indirectly her statement works out to be kind of true that after we connect from rubbing each other's backs and talking that I have a strong desire for physical intimacy. I'll tell her just that and perhaps snarl back, "why is it if you want things to happen naturally that you want to preemptively rule out the possibility of sex when I am most likely to desire it?" .... that argument never goes well.

...somehow my mind tells me it relates to the exact same dynamics of making dinner plans. 

Looking forward to the new book and the insights it offers!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> As for when my wife asked me to lock the door and not leave the room, we do have a unique power struggle that plays into those moments. Her admitting that she wanted me to lock the door is her way of asking me to unleash the beast.


Or more probably she just got sick of you being so passive and sulky about sex. So she decided on this occasion that someone (which means her since you won't lead), has to wear the pants in the bedroom and lead sexually.



> Her admitting she wants it is something she struggles with doing. I imagine what plays out in her mind is, "can the idiot not take a hint!" ...and no, NO I am not taking a hint. You want it, you are going to have to ask for it!


And you have the gall to whinge about having a less than stellar sex life.

What is there to struggle with? She likes sex when you express strong sexual desire. She doesn't care for sex, when you tiptoe around it like you're scared to do it.



> It is not that I need to hear her say that for my own validation, but I want her to feel confident enough to know that she can ask for things as opposed to me making all the decisions as to what happens and when.


If you stopped playing silly manipulative games with her, you would enjoy a lot more sex than you get now.



> Afterwards she told me that I should do what I did to her ALL the time and as much as I wanted.


If only you believed her and always acted accordingly. Turning women on is really pretty easy to do.

I don't understand why you won't stop self sabotaging this.



> The part that I don't think she puts together is that it mostly worked because she finally got the courage to ask for what SHE wanted and WHEN she wanted it.


You have it so backwards, she has told you on more than one occasion to have your way with her at a time of your own choosing.

Yet despite that your approach continues to be passive, while second guessing this stuff and overthinking it to no end.

She wants the beast, yet all she gets is a faux beast that only shows up when she shows the initiative and wears the pants.

If only you had the desire to just take her, which would show her that you really do lust after her sex.



> The dynamics of that scenario seem so useful. Awkwardly I found myself thinking of a similar argument that my wife and I get into. I will ask her if she wants to spend some quality time together and have me rub her back. Often she will snarl at me and reply, "is that all you want? Or do you want sex? Why don't you just be honest and let me know you are needing sex?" In all honesty I am just wanting her to rub my back, but indirectly her statement works out to be kind of true that after we connect from rubbing each other's backs and talking that I have a strong desire for physical intimacy. I'll tell her just that and perhaps snarl back, "why is it if you want things to happen naturally that you want to preemptively rule out the possibility of sex when I am most likely to desire it?" .... that argument never goes well.


She's not preemptively ruling out sex!!!!!!!!!! :slap::banghead:

She's sick of you beating around the bush and tiptoeing around sex. She wants you to own your sexual desire, be manly about it, own it and express your want for sex with some vigour.

Meanwhile there's a woman posting on an internet forum somewhere. Who is complaining that her husband shows little sexual desire for her, wants to masturbate all the time and seldom ever initiates sex with her. Please help, how can I get my husband to want to have sex with me?

Although I'm sure I've told you this kind of thing before, here it is again for you.

Do kiss her and kiss her well, don't ask permission to kiss her just grab her and kiss her. kiss her lightly down her neck from behind her ears, then walk away. Do that kind of thing occasionally when you see her etc.

Then when you want to have sex, start kissing her some more, take her to the bedroom shut the door, and carry on more kissing and touching. Don't talk, don't talk about it, enough of the endless boring talk that is driven by nervous anxiety.

If you want to talk, tell her to pull her panties down. Tell her to undo her top, tell her to show you her breasts, tell her to bend over, tell her to put your penis in her mouth. Keep touching and kissing her along the way, get her lust going.



> ...somehow my mind tells me it relates to the exact same dynamics of making dinner plans.


Sigh...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> You have it so backwards, she has told you on more than one occasion to have your way with her at a time of your own choosing.


...and to that notion I have become the world Guinness record holder of attempted Charlie Brown football kicks!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I think Personal has it right, for many / most women.

For many/ most women, they are turned on when the guy is forceful in expressing his desire for her. On the other hand, for some women, the guy being forceful triggers her PTSD from being raped or abused, FOO issues of having been told that sex is dirty and wrong, etc. Sometimes, both of these mechanisms occur in the same woman. That is difficult for the man by himself to address.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think Personal has it right, for many / most women.


To some extent @Personal is correct on some level, but allow me to show more going back to this point:



> The dynamics of that scenario seem so useful. Awkwardly I found myself thinking of a similar argument that my wife and I get into. I will ask her if she wants to spend some quality time together and have me rub her back. Often she will snarl at me and reply, "is that all you want? Or do you want sex? Why don't you just be honest and let me know you are needing sex?" In all honesty I am just wanting her to rub my back, but indirectly her statement works out to be kind of true that after we connect from rubbing each other's backs and talking that I have a strong desire for physical intimacy. I'll tell her just that and perhaps snarl back, "why is it if you want things to happen naturally that you want to preemptively rule out the possibility of sex when I am most likely to desire it?" .... that argument never goes well.
> 
> 
> > She's not preemptively ruling out sex!!!!!!!!!!
> ...


What I did NOT share there is that my wife DID rule out sex and she does so regularly. I'll ask for a hug and a back rub and this will be what my wife says to me even though I am NOT even thinking about sex:



> I will give you a hug if that is ALL you want. If you want sex I am NOT in the mood because I am tired and I have a busy day tomorrow. If you want sex you need to tell me that is what you want, and if you really just have to have it, I would really rather you wait until tomorrow!


So in that expanded context, that is a pretty hard NO for sex even though I was not asking. I then get upset because she has preemptively ruled out the possibility of it happening naturally. Then the next day if I do happen to want sex, she gets upset and complains that I am too needy and that I need to learn how to want it less. This would be said in the context of me being perfectly OK the day before without it. 

Badsanta


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> What I did NOT share there is that my wife DID rule out sex and she does so regularly. I'll ask for a hug and a back rub and this will be what my wife says to me even though I am NOT even thinking about sex:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A hug is a hug, a back rub is a back rub and sex is sex.

Having vetted you sufficiently, I'll share the following:



> *SECRET//TAMEO*
> 
> *INTSUM*
> 
> ...


That out of the way, your wife is telling you what I am telling you.

"If you want sex you need to tell me that is what you want"

Yet sadly you don't believe her.

"and if you really just have to have it, I would really rather you wait until tomorrow!"

Which isn't a hard No at all, she has expressed a preference for the following day yet she hasn't said No to that moment either.

Of which since you weren't wanting sex anyway, because all you really want is a hug and or a back rub. Her saying tomorrow, or not now or not at all. Every time you want a hug or a back rub, shouldn't bother you at all.

UNLESS!!! you're playing silly games and you do actually want sex. Which is easily resolved by giving your wife what she wants and telling her directly. All combined with owning your sexuality and expressing it with some sexual desire.

That said when she turns you down the next day, I have to ask how do you bring it up?

Do you ask for another back rub or a hug, are you whiny and needy, making sex as sexy as dolling out charity for an unworthy cause?

Do you lamely remind her of that rain-cheque, telling her it's time?

Now if you tell me, you flirt with her a little throughout the day and kiss her and touch her a little sexually as well. And that you escalate it with each passing go, towards the point when you want to have her. Then you then keep kissing her and then help her out of her clothes etc and that doesn't work I would think you have a problem. Absent that until you think differently, you are the author of your own limitations.

***

*TAKE 1*

*WILL:* (I wouldn't mind sex) "Jess can you tie my shoe laces for me?"

*JESS:* (what a freakin' chore) "Again???!!!"

*WILL:* (she's great at laces & I hope it leads to sex) "I love it when you tie my shoe laces."

*JESS:* (he often wants sex whenever I do his laces, he's just too passive to own it) "So you're not after sex?"

*WILL:* (she's always accusing me, deny, deny) "No, I just want my laces done!"

*JESS:* (I'm pretty sure he's lying) "If you want to have sex with me, you need to tell me."

*WILL:* (Oh great, she's going to give me the sex denial lecture) "I told you I just want my shoe laces tied, you're awesome at doing it and not everything is about sex."

*JESS:* (maybe he doesn't want me for sex at all, I can play that game as well) "Fine I'll do your laces! But I want you to know I'm tired, I've got a lot on and I don't feel like sex. Plus if you really need sex, I'd rather do it tomorrow if we must."

*Closing:* Jess doesn't tie Will's shoe laces and neither of them have sex that afternoon or the following day.

***

*TAKE 2*

*WILL:* (I wouldn't mind sex) "Jess can you tie my shoe laces for me?"

*JESS:* (what a freakin' chore) "Again???!!!"

*WILL:* (she's great at laces & I hope it leads to sex) "I love it when you tie my shoe laces."

*JESS:* (he often wants sex whenever I do his laces, he's just too passive to own it) "So you're not after sex?"

*WILL:* (just admit it, what are you afraid of) "You caught me, yeah I want to have sex with you."

*JESS:* (I wish he would tell me, it's such a turn off when he is so passive) "If you want to have sex with me, I wish you would just tell me."

*WILL:* (But women don't like sex and she often turns me down) "But you often turn me down and make me feel like I'm a pest."

*JESS:* (I turn him down because he doesn't make me feel desired) "I can't help it. You turn me off, when you deny that you want sex. While you carry on about love and being close, yet you won't even just grab me and kiss me like you desire me."

*WILL:* (doesn't she understand, I'm respecting her and showing care) "I do want you, I just don't want you to think I just want you for sex."

*JESS:* (It's getting late, talking about this is such a turn off) "I want you to lock the door".

*Closing:* Jess doesn't tie Will's shoe laces and they both end up having sex, yet the dynamic remains for the most part unchanged.

***

*TAKE 3*

*WILL:* (I wouldn't mind sex) "Show me your knickers!"

*JESS:* (Again???!!! - walks over to dresser draw, pulls out a pair of knickers and waves it at Will) "There you go."

*WILL:* (okay, she got me, yet I still want to see those knickers) "Hah! Not them, the ones that you're wearing."

*JESS:* (this is fun) "Why?"

*WILL:* (this is fun) "So I get to see them on you, before I take them off."

*JESS:* (lifts dress while maintaining eye contact)

*Closing:* As usual Jess and Will end up having sex.

***

At the end of the day she's told you not to be passive, she's told you to be direct and honest and to show some actual desire for sex. Yet despite that you still insist on tiptoeing around sex, with passive hugs and roundabout back rubs.

If you want a better sex life wake up, if not then do carry on as you are.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I am a proponent of self-pleasure for both people. That said, I'm not a proponent of lying about it. 

My husband has recently been telling me he no longer masturbates. I tried biting my lip but was unable to contain my knowing smile that was total b.s. But attempting to help him through the lie, I asked him "Why would you do that?" And got several excuses. I was, like, "dude, you don't have to do that - that would actually be, like, probably not normal. I'm not going to not masturbate!"

This morning, I got up a little while after he did and went to our bathroom door to see if the toilet was available without disturbing him by peeking discreetly through the door (I try not to walk in on him if he is on the toilet) - and just happened to look through just at the moment he reached for the lotion, lubed up his **** and entered the shower.

I decided to just nonchalantly walk in just after that and pretend to be very sleepy and say good morning - got in the shower with him and we had wonderful sex for the next half hour - in the shower and in bed afterwards.

FWIW - we had just had wonderful sex last night.

Like I said, getting it anytime you have the urge is fully embraced in our household - but lying about it...I just don't get it. 

TONS of conversations over the years - tons of wild crazy sex we've done so many things (not swingers, though). I have no idea why the guy wants to pretend to me that he doesn't masturbate. WTF???

I love sex - I keep myself up - I look good naked - I'm clean, I smell good - I cook wonderful meals for him - I am interested in his life and his opinions - we enjoy each others' company - I tell him how hot he is (sincerely) - I am very open about talking about sex.

I have to stress that I'm okay with masturbation as long as it doesn't interfere with having sex with each other on a regular basis. If he says he's too tired to have sex (has happened 3 times recently) but he's lubing up in the shower regularly - I just think that's possible a basis for a conversation.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Personal said:


> A hug is a hug, a back rub is a back rub and sex is sex.
> 
> Having vetted you sufficiently, I'll share the following:
> 
> ...


I pick the last one (I literally lubricated just reading that)


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> In my marriage I have a much higher libido than my wife and would always prefer to be with her as opposed to spending "quality" time alone with myself. Over the years my wife has tried to shame me over any masturbation urges which I feel to be perfectly normal and healthy. I no longer allow her to shame me and I if she does I simply point out that it is probably just as problematic for her to not do it regularly. We are in a "kind of OK place" regarding this topic, but it is still awkward for her. She just wants there to be a don't ask and don't tell policy. She would rather just not know about what I do with my time alone. Now a days, she just respects my privacy. If she asks, I'll share. But her question is usually limited to, "when was the last time you did that?" And she is hoping to hear that I have not for at least a few days because according to her she can tell the difference.
> 
> Historically she used to promise that if I did not masturbate that we would have much more sex in our marriage. I honestly tried it and she not hold up her end of the bargain. She admitted that she was hoping that if I stopped masturbating that it would reduce my libido and not make me so needy for her all the time. She said, "if you stop doing that all the time, your need to do it should go away." She thought idea would be helpful for our marriage. When the opposite happened and I became much more needy she just got upset and it made problems worse.
> 
> ...


I think for some women (perhaps myself included), we are unaware of the habits of men regarding sexual fulfillment. I wrote a post just above here - and I'm just baffled, frankly.

I don't know why my husband would prefer to masturbate in the shower when I'm lying naked in the bed in the morning and he could whip the covers back and masturbate his cum on me instead. That would be so hot. 

So, yeah, questions do arise when the masturbation time is private instead of shared. 

In the past, there have been a lot of other fantasies involved in his masturbation habits. So, I'm not sure if what you are writing here about your wife's concerns are based on her own fears and insecurities or if, in your lives together, there have been some past issues about that.

It's pretty damn hard to get through life without noticing other people - however briefly - who may turn you on. Mostly, it's probably just a passing thing, maybe even just a passing thing for that one masturbation episode.

But for us, in our relationship, the masturbation fantasies involved a long line of other women, some with whom my husband used as fantasies for as long as a decade.

So, masturbation became a problem issue between us. I developed some serious self-esteem issues that I battled for a long time. 

He has tried to explain how fantasies are just nothingness - and our relationship far exceeds those in value to him. 

But we are very different people in this regard. I don't care for the idea of using another person to satisfy myself sexually. I prefer focusing on one person with whom I am sharing my life. I feel like focusing on another person (who is not the spouse) while masturbating causes an emotional/mental connection with that person/people/the sense of variety. He has had a very long string of these masturbation fantasy relationships. Some have been with (former, thanks for ruining it) friends of mine.

I have offered the idea to him that if he would focus on the intimacy and closeness of our relationship, that the relationship would bloom and thrive beyond anything he could imagine.

But, his habits are his habits. We all often do what we have to do to survive. Maybe this is just what he has to do.

What your wife is describing is HER experience with sex - that is to say, if she has less sex, she desires it less. That isn't YOUR experience and so that's what she has to understand.

But...you've asked for opinions from others. Unfortunately, what I have to say isn't probably exactly going to match the experiences of you and your wife...but, just to share some thoughts:

I've said this before on TAM - but I think that women aren't as LD as guys describe them. I think women who have mind-blowing sex actually would desire it quite often. 

But, women do experience sex differently than men so there can be mismatches there when the two people don't communicate well about what constitutes mind-blowing to each of them.

Like, my husband can pretty much have an orgasm whenever - whereas I have a lot of different buttons to push. He's an elevator, I'm a military helicopter when it comes to pushing sex buttons. So, he has to be willing to go through a lot of (fun) things to make sex mind-blowing for me and I think because he doesn't experience sex like that, he might secretly consider my sexual stuff too complicated and something he has to "deal with"

This saddens me and makes me feel not worth him going to the trouble - and a little bit jealous that things are so simple and easy for him.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I am a proponent of self-pleasure for both people. That said, I'm not a proponent of lying about it.
> 
> My husband has recently been telling me he no longer masturbates. I tried biting my lip but was unable to contain my knowing smile that was total b.s. But attempting to help him through the lie, I asked him "Why would you do that?" And got several excuses. I was, like, "dude, you don't have to do that - that would actually be, like, probably not normal. I'm not going to not masturbate!"
> 
> ...


As difficult as it may be, you must remind yourself that his addiction isn't about you.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> A hug is a hug, a back rub is a back rub and sex is sex.
> 
> Having vetted you sufficiently, I'll share the following:
> 
> ...



A LOT of good points. Thanks for sharing. 

Generally speaking the next day (when my wife has asked me to wait), I go through my day as normal not even thinking about sex. BUT in the meantime my wife builds resentment and claims like she feels as if I am a lion hunting her. She claims I am putting pressure for sex during moments I have not even been thinking about it. So by the time I am ready to be romantic and pursue her, she is angry and fed up with me for her own thoughts that I have been pressuring her all day and that I am just too needy. 

The reality is her schedule is just overwhelming and she does not really have time for us to connect emotionally on most days, so perhaps she feels guilty. She will wake up to start her work sometimes at 5am and not get done until 7pm. Given she has a small break in the middle of the day, she often really really just needs a break and to decompress in her own personal space. She may want me to be a part of that, but what she needs from me is probably "borrowed functioning" of me just soothing her and helping her relax and vent her frustrations of the day. She does not want me to be another person that needs something from her, or else she reacts angrily (perhaps out of guilt knowing that she does not make time for us in that way). 

It is a very awkward cycle. She has overbooked herself career wise. I am able to balance my career and have time for the family and she feels a bit resentful towards me for that and perhaps thinks I should definitely not be the needy one. In reality she is the needy one as in she needs me to manage the household errands of keeping the family running smoothly, and she needs me to help her calm down and decompress at the end of the day. If I ask the same from her, it is obvious that her life has become overextended and she just can't handle it. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I am a proponent of self-pleasure for both people. That said, I'm not a proponent of lying about it.
> 
> My husband has recently been telling me he no longer masturbates. I tried biting my lip but was unable to contain my knowing smile that was total b.s. But attempting to help him through the lie, I asked him "Why would you do that?" And got several excuses. I was, like, "dude, you don't have to do that - that would actually be, like, probably not normal. I'm not going to not masturbate!"
> 
> ...


In recent conversations my wife admitted that she has come a long way to finally accept that my acts of self love are normal and perhaps healthy. I make it point to NOT LIE, but I worry her request that I be discrete could be problematic. 

Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> As difficult as it may be, you must remind yourself that his addiction isn't about you.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Thanks.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> In recent conversations my wife admitted that she has come a long way to finally accept that my acts of self love are normal and perhaps healthy. I make it point to NOT LIE, but I worry her request that I be discrete could be problematic.
> 
> Badsanta


Do you feel like not telling her is sort of lying by omission?

I kind of feel like that. 

I don't know how my husband feels if I tell him "I masturbated today. It was great."


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I think for some women (perhaps myself included), we are unaware of the habits of men regarding sexual fulfillment. I wrote a post just above here - and I'm just baffled, frankly.....



Thanks fro sharing in this second post. It actually has me thinking. If I were to confront my wife about my fantasies that I have when I masturbate, they are fantasies about her. She doesn't believe that though. Perhaps the dynamics of those fantasies have become a little perverse over the years given the power struggle in the marriage, but at the core of those fantasies is my struggle to connect with her in a way that is loving and without anxiety. If there is anxiety it is one that can be used to fuel erotism and not to extinguish it. 

If I share that with her and she calls BS, I'll tell her to test me and see what happens! 

Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Thanks fro sharing in this second post. It actually has me thinking. If I were to confront my wife about my fantasies that I have when I masturbate, they are fantasies about her. She doesn't believe that though. Perhaps the dynamics of those fantasies have become a little perverse over the years given the power struggle in the marriage, but at the core of those fantasies is my struggle to connect with her in a way that is loving and without anxiety. If there is anxiety it is one that can be used to fuel erotism and not to extinguish it.
> 
> If I share that with her and she calls BS, I'll tell her to test me and see what happens!
> 
> Badsanta


Good Luck.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Just a suggestion for hugs -- DON'T ASK.

Just say, "honey can you come here for a minute when you get a chance?"

When she walks over, grab her for a hug, give her a kiss (head, forehead, cheek, lips -- whatever), and then say it looked like you needed one.

Then walk away. Nothing else, no further discussions about it.
If you do that enough, it may get her OFF the trigger that because you wanted a hug, you want sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I just can't crack the code on why he likes to keep all the secrets about his fantasies and masturbation and lies about it. I can't bear even one more conversation - there have LITERALLY been thousands of them. And it hasn't changed a damn thing. Whatever it is, it would probably take another guy to crack his code of addiction.


You and I operate on the same side of the HD/LD dynamic. Two HD people trying to help one another is like the blind leading the blind. 

A psychology book I am reading strongly suggests that the HD/LD dynamic is actually reversed somewhere else in your marriage where you are the LD person holding your husband back and controlling him (regardless if you want that control or not). By thinking about this area of your relationship and engaging your own personal development will do wonders to help you better understand your husband. It is a very dynamic emotional machine, and one that is designed to help you be a better person. 

Topics where this role reversal are often nonsexual. Examples might be traveling together, career development, having kids, moving to live somewhere new, renovating the house. 

Give that some food for thought. 

Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

jlg07 said:


> Just a suggestion for hugs -- DON'T ASK.
> 
> Just say, "honey can you come here for a minute when you get a chance?"
> 
> ...


Depends on the person receiving the hug and giving the hug and the mood the receiver is in. I don't personally like that. If I'm not in the mood to be touched, don't.

As for hugging as an association only with sex, I get that as problematic. I do think couples need to find non-sexual ways to touch so that all touching isn't just sexual. That can be kind of like a form of deprivation.

For my husband and I - it's so opposite in some ways. He's fine if I just grab his ****. I really hate it if he would grab my clit. I will go crazy though if he does that "touch everything BUT" thing that barely avoids all my hot spots.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes

Physical intimacy is a privilege, not a right. 
1. I would never touch M2 if I thought she didn’t want to be touched at the moment
2. We touch in a non sexual way all the time




happiness27 said:


> Depends on the person receiving the hug and giving the hug and the mood the receiver is in. I don't personally like that. If I'm not in the mood to be touched, don't.
> 
> As for hugging as an association only with sex, I get that as problematic. I do think couples need to find non-sexual ways to touch so that all touching isn't just sexual. That can be kind of like a form of deprivation.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> You and I operate on the same side of the HD/LD dynamic. Two HD people trying to help one another is like the blind leading the blind.
> 
> A psychology book I am reading strongly suggests that the HD/LD dynamic is actually reversed somewhere else in your marriage where you are the LD person holding your husband back and controlling him (regardless if you want that control or not). By thinking about this area of your relationship and engaging your own personal development will do wonders to help you better understand your husband. It is a very dynamic emotional machine, and one that is designed to help you be a better person.
> 
> ...



I don't quite follow you. 

Are you saying that elsewhere in our marriage is an opposite dynamic from our sex life?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I don't quite follow you.
> 
> Are you saying that elsewhere in our marriage is an opposite dynamic from our sex life?
> ...


YES!

My wife controls the amount of sex in our marriage, and I don't like to get out so I control the amount of vacations and day to day outings. I am likely autistic as I get into anxiety attacks when I am around large crowds of people. I need to work on that part of myself and overcome it as I even annoy myself by not getting out and allowing myself to have fun. My wife says this makes me a lousy date, so I am going to work on it. I am not associating this with getting more sex, but find it helpful in better understanding my wife's struggle to have more desire for other things in our marriage. 

So odds are in your marriage the roles are reversed and just as deadlocked. It is probably an area of your marriage that has nothing to do with sex. Your husband may have even given up on complaining to you about it. It could have to do with family finances, or willingness to visit your in laws. That role reversal is there. You will have to dig it up and take a hard look as to why you feel that way and ask yourself what would it take for yourself to improve. 

Badsanta


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Thanks fro sharing in this second post. It actually has me thinking. If I were to confront my wife about my fantasies that I have when I masturbate, they are fantasies about her. She doesn't believe that though. Perhaps the dynamics of those fantasies have become a little perverse over the years given the power struggle in the marriage, but at the core of those fantasies is my struggle to connect with her in a way that is loving and without anxiety. If there is anxiety it is one that can be used to fuel erotism and not to extinguish it.
> 
> If I share that with her and she calls BS, I'll tell her to test me and see what happens!
> 
> Badsanta


Badsanta, I know for me it is a huge deal if my wife is able to just accept me for who I am and tries to understand why something appeals to me. Her and I have both gotten better at that over the years. It really used to bother me when my wife would tell me what she thought about something I was trying to express rather than listen. Anyways, I hope that you are able to express yourself to your wife and she is able to accept you as you. I believe it would do wonders to strengthen your marriage. Good luck.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> YES!
> 
> My wife controls the amount of sex in our marriage, and I don't like to get out so I control the amount of vacations and day to day outings. I am likely autistic as I get into anxiety attacks when I am around large crowds of people. I need to work on that part of myself and overcome it as I even annoy myself by not getting out and allowing myself to have fun. My wife says this makes me a lousy date, so I am going to work on it. I am not associating this with getting more sex, but find it helpful in better understanding my wife's struggle to have more desire for other things in our marriage.
> 
> ...


Sounds good.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

wrong thread! sorry!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think stepping out of the marriage for any sexual thrill or gratification is wrong. Of course, it's a wide range of severities. A young soldier stationed in Afghanistan thinking about his wife/masturbating while away for 6 months is much less wrong than BadSanta who's only waited two days (and hasn't even tried to woo his wife).


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> I think stepping out of the marriage for any sexual thrill or gratification is wrong. Of course, it's a wide range of severities. A young soldier stationed in Afghanistan thinking about his wife/masturbating while away for 6 months is much less wrong than B******* who's only waited two days (and hasn't even tried to woo his wife).


Despite anonymity here, I would still be more comfortable describing situations rather than naming names. There is only one person who can walk in another man's shoes, carry his burden and truly forgive whatever sins he may have. And that person is neither you nor me. 

"who's only waited two days..." as if two days is very little time. In two days, the sun, the moon, the stars, the birds & sea animals were created. Whether you believe that man has walked the earth for 4,000 or 4,000,000 years, what have we got to say for ourselves? Point being, don't judge everyone's timeline the same. If God can be patient with us for all this time, he is probably cutting B******* a bit more slack, and a bit more time, to work out his own issues.

I wish I could live my own life closer to the words I often write and know to be true.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I think stepping out of the marriage for any sexual thrill or gratification is wrong. Of course, it's a wide range of severities. A young soldier stationed in Afghanistan thinking about his wife/masturbating while away for 6 months is much less wrong than BadSanta who's only waited two days (and hasn't even tried to woo his wife).


Uh..... 
Sin is a binary thing. Either something is a sin or it isnt. In the Lord's eyes, he really doesn't care which commandment you break... any of them separates man from God. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter which one(s) you broke, to what degree, or how many times, once you repent and seek salvation

I dont share your faith, but I know your doctrine, and once again, you aren't living it.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > I think stepping out of the marriage for any sexual thrill or gratification is wrong. Of course, it's a wide range of severities. A young soldier stationed in Afghanistan thinking about his wife/masturbating while away for 6 months is much less wrong than BadSanta who's only waited two days (and hasn't even tried to woo his wife).
> ...


Wrong. Your knowledge of church doctrine is poor. Venial, mortal and Jesus told Peter he could forgive/retain sins... Instituting the sacrament of confession. This teaching goes much deeper...

We can agree though, masturbating is always wrong. I was just pointing out that there are degrees of wrong. If sin is binary then murder is equivalent to other sins... 

Sorry to offend but isn't this how it works for most men. If plan A (wife) falls through, revert to plan B (masturbating). That's sinful, isn't it? I agree though that it's worse when plan A is masturbating.. that's someone who has sinned to the point that they've lost the capacity to recognize what's right or wrong.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Wrong. Your knowledge of church doctrine is poor. Venial, mortal and Jesus told Peter he could forgive/retain sins... Instituting the sacrament of confession. This teaching goes much deeper...
> 
> We can agree though, masturbating is always wrong. I was just pointing out that there are degrees of wrong. If sin is binary then murder is equivalent to other sins...
> 
> Sorry to offend but isn't this how it works for most men. If plan A (wife) falls through, revert to plan B (masturbating). That's sinful, isn't it? I agree though that it's worse when plan A is masturbating.. that's someone who has sinned to the point that they've lost the capacity to recognize what's right or wrong.


You are confusing mans laws and logic with Gods.... two different things. Yes, sins can be retained or forgiven... ALL sins. One is no different from another in this regard.

And yet again, you can speak for yourself, but your experience does not apply to "most men."


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> A LOT of good points. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you guys work together? Maybe you should consider splitting up during the day somehow. She might feel (irrationally) that you are crowding her.

Nothing turns a woman more on when their sexual partner is not around!  (**** knows why! Don’t take it personally....).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I don't know why my husband would prefer to masturbate in the shower when I'm lying naked in the bed in the morning and he could whip the covers back and masturbate his cum on me instead. That would be so hot.



Does he know this option even exists? (In that particular situation).
As men age, I think we find it more difficult to cope with being rejected or maybe our pride won’t let us pursue as aggressively as when we were young and stupid. It’s off putting for women too (that we don’t ‘jump through the hoops’ as much anymore) and creates a vicious cycle.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> It's pretty damn hard to get through life without noticing other people - however briefly - who may turn you on. Mostly, it's probably just a passing thing, maybe even just a passing thing for that one masturbation episode.
> 
> But for us, in our relationship, the masturbation fantasies involved a long line of other women, some with whom my husband used as fantasies for as long as a decade.
> 
> ...


Yes, I would find it problematic if sexual fantasies included actual people, with faces etc (rather than just...body parts). This would point to me to a need to want some sort of variety. I do think there are men that are biologically wired to need variety.

For me, variety plays a different role; I like sexual varieties, to make the experience with wife more intense, rather than variety with sexual partners. It’s really weird, but when I was growing up, I did not imagine I would become like this...The image I had of myself was that i would become a ‘hunter’ who would never be satisfied with just one sexual partner. Totally did not work out that way...



happiness27 said:


> I've said this before on TAM - but I think that women aren't as LD as guys describe them. I think women who have mind-blowing sex actually would desire it quite often.



My wife says the same thing. (She believes the husbands that complain about women not so keen on having sex very often, is because these men are most likely not very good at sex...and if they experienced mind-blowing once, they would want to experience it more often...). 
I am not sure this is so one-dimensional but probably true in many cases.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NoremacWeaponX (Sep 28, 2019)

I am HD while my wife is relatively low. Not that sex isn't good, sometimes great. But there are a few things she doesn't like. I mainly use porn to satisfy the kinks she doesnt like. I've noticed that the frequency of watching porn increases the longer I've gone without trying those kinks in the bedroom. She hates that I watch porn, but I'm not going to beg or try to coerce my wife to do things she doesnt want to. I'm not suggesting our situations are the same. Just giving you my reasons. My wife views it as a sort of mental cheating. Even if most times I use porn as sort of a blueprint and just insert me and her into it mentally. I mean, I don't want to sleep with other women. I'm just using porn to fill the gaps my wife won't.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

leftfield said:


> Badsanta, I know for me it is a huge deal if my wife is able to just accept me for who I am and tries to understand why something appeals to me. Her and I have both gotten better at that over the years. It really used to bother me when my wife would tell me what she thought about something I was trying to express rather than listen. Anyways, I hope that you are able to express yourself to your wife and she is able to accept you as you. I believe it would do wonders to strengthen your marriage. Good luck.


 @leftfield I agree with you on this that it is generally a good idea to be yourself and be cautious about allowing someone to change you via compromise. In my case there are areas of my personality that even I wish to change because at the end of the day I actually do enjoy getting out and doing things as opposed to just lounging around the house and binging on Netflix. Honestly I do need to be a better boyfriend and get out more and go places. I feel better about myself when I do new things as well.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> Do you guys work together? Maybe you should consider splitting up during the day somehow. She might feel (irrationally) that you are crowding her.
> 
> Nothing turns a woman more on when their sexual partner is not around!  (**** knows why! Don’t take it personally....).


Yes we are coworkers and work side-by-side. Awkwardly when there are struggles in our marriage it tends to be our careers that bring us back to one another because we make a great team. Awkwardly I also acknowledge that it make personal time in our marriage a premium. So we encourage each other's hobbies and personal space.

I should take it as a HUGE compliment that she wants me to be a good boyfriend and take her out at the end of the day! Especially after having been together all day with work.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NoremacWeaponX said:


> I am HD while my wife is relatively low. Not that sex isn't good, sometimes great. But there are a few things she doesn't like. I mainly use porn to satisfy the kinks she doesnt like. I've noticed that the frequency of watching porn increases the longer I've gone without trying those kinks in the bedroom. She hates that I watch porn, but I'm not going to beg or try to coerce my wife to do things she doesnt want to. I'm not suggesting our situations are the same. Just giving you my reasons. My wife views it as a sort of mental cheating. Even if most times I use porn as sort of a blueprint and just insert me and her into it mentally. I mean, I don't want to sleep with other women. I'm just using porn to fill the gaps my wife won't.


 @NoremacWeaponX I find that mentality very interesting as I can totally empathize. I once got into an debate with a woman here on TAM that refuses to believe that men watch porn to facilitate a fantasy about their own wives. Having said that...

Have you ever tried to separate the topic of porn and self pleasure with your wife? Do her views on just masturbation (without porn) differ from yours?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

A general update on this thread. 

I decided to be brutally honest with my wife and just share with her the general nature of what I fantasize about during the moments I engage about self pleasure. Since at the core of my fantasies are her, I told her to take that as a compliment and that I adore being married to a wife that is also the woman of my fantasies. I shared with her the exact dynamics of what makes my fantasies about her tick and encouraged her to put them to the test. 

She was like a kid in a candy store! 

HER: "So wait a minute, are you telling me it turns you on when I do ****** ***** ** **** ****?" 

HER WITH A HUGE SMILE: "You know you shouldn't have admitted that because you are in some serious trouble now!"

ME:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> A general update on this thread.
> 
> I decided to be brutally honest with my wife and just share with her the general nature of what I fantasize about during the moments I engage about self pleasure. Since at the core of my fantasies are her, I told her to take that as a compliment and that I adore being married to a wife that is also the woman of my fantasies. I shared with her the exact dynamics of what makes my fantasies about her tick and encouraged her to put them to the test.
> 
> ...


Very cool.

My wife wasn't comfortable when I did the same... and yes, she was/is the object of my fantasies and no, they weren't even very far out there.


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## NoremacWeaponX (Sep 28, 2019)

I haven't really talked much about masturbation specifically. She's somewhat prudish. The times I've tried to inquire about her feelings towards certain kinks and why she doesn't like them, her response is, "I just don't" and wants to drop the subject. In regards to masturbation specifically, she's shown distaste for it, and I only know of one instance where she's wanted to masturbate. I personally, don't really care. I feel it's natural, but I'd much prefer sex with my wife. And usually after I do, I do feel a bit of disappointment in myself, mainly due to the fact that I've wasted time in my day.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> We can agree though, masturbating is always wrong.


 No. You need to say more to defend that point if you want to base an argument on it. I’ve never seen a jot of scripture to justify that position. 

I think masturbation can become a problem in all sorts of ways, but that doesn’t make it plain wrong.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Very cool.
> 
> My wife wasn't comfortable when I did the same... and yes, she was/is the object of my fantasies and no, they weren't even very far out there.


I tried the same a few years back and failed because perhaps I did not yet understand them. My wife asked me a few questions that I did not understand how to answer and she assumed I was just trying to feed her a line of crap and manipulate her into more sex. This time around I found a way to do it and be honest in which she had no choice but to attribute my fantasies to her.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NoremacWeaponX said:


> I haven't really talked much about masturbation specifically. She's somewhat prudish. The times I've tried to inquire about her feelings towards certain kinks and why she doesn't like them, *her response is, "I just don't" and wants to drop the subject.* In regards to masturbation specifically, she's shown distaste for it, and I only know of one instance where she's wanted to masturbate. I personally, don't really care. I feel it's natural, but I'd much prefer sex with my wife. And usually after I do, I do feel a bit of disappointment in myself, mainly due to the fact that I've wasted time in my day.


You can tell her that it is OK for her to feel that way but that you want to try and appreciate the reasons _why_ she feels that way. If she chooses to withhold that information, you can tell her that when couples stop sharing who they are with one another that it only serves to create problems. In that event let her know you feel disappointed in her if she does not share but that you understand that it is not always easy to share some things. 

Give her permission to ask you something that you might have trouble sharing with her just to be fair. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> Yes, I would find it problematic if sexual fantasies included actual people, with faces etc (rather than just...body parts).


Yes, this is the problem I have with my husband's masturbation. It not only involves people he OR he and I know and encounter - but they then go on for long periods of time. They become masturbation relationships he has with various women. Some of them have been close friends of mine in the past. 

If this had been open, honest conversation and knowledge, a couple of things could have happened that I feel would have been better for both of us: 

1.) I could have at least had the information I needed to make an informed decision about whether or not the relationship was something I wanted.

2.) I would have trusted him a lot more - because honesty breeds trust.

It appears, though, after 29 years of marriage (30 years together) a so many therapists, I've lost actual count (I think it's at least 8), that this is a behavior model he wishes to keep.

Yesterday, it's gotten bad - he couldn't perform with me at all. 

He could masturbate to porn orgasm in the bathroom by himself within about 90 seconds after not being able to perform with me.

So, gentlemen, as a part of this discussion, one thing I want to see if we can agree upon, as a woman who has been masturbating since I was 9 or 10 and who is a ardent supporter of masturbation rights: masturbation CAN become a problem/issue. 

In my experience and with my husband, it becomes a problem when the brain gets wired to have an orgasm primarily via masturbation.

One thing my husband has repeatedly said is that there is a pressure control during masturbation that makes it easy for him to have an orgasm when he wants to. His fantasies are utterly selfish, completely about self-satisfying.

When he and I are having sex, it's not all just about him anymore. It's more "work"

There needs to be some supportive conversation to a woman who is being told by her husband that sex with her is "work" - and I'm talking about a man who is attracted to his wife, a woman who is sexy and attractive and imaginative and open, etc. Not talking about try to screw an ugly prude. I'm talking about a man who would rather masturbate than try and figure out how to find and care about his living, breathing partner's clitoris as much as he wants her to pay attention to his penis.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> Yes, I would find it problematic if sexual fantasies included actual people, with faces etc (rather than just...body parts).


Yes, this is the problem I have with my husband's masturbation. It not only involves people he OR he and I know and encounter - but they then go on for long periods of time. They become masturbation relationships he has with various women. Some of them have been close friends of mine in the past. 

If this had been open, honest conversation and knowledge, a couple of things could have happened that I feel would have been better for both of us: 

1.) I could have at least had the information I needed to make an informed decision about whether or not the relationship was something I wanted.

2.) I would have trusted him a lot more - because honesty breeds trust.

It appears, though, after 29 years of marriage (30 years together) a so many therapists, I've lost actual count (I think it's at least 8), that this is a behavior model he wishes to keep. It's like Lucy with the football - every time, he makes a commitment to stop fapping so we can focus on us and us having sex with each other and every time, he just decides, instead, to lie about it. And I believe his lies for several weeks or months before I'm, like, I've tried everything I can think of to figure out why we are having problems with each other sexually and, it turns out to be fapping.

Yesterday, it's gotten so bad - he couldn't perform with me at all. 

But...he could masturbate to porn orgasm in the bathroom by himself within about 90 seconds after not being able to perform with me. 

So, gentlemen, as a point of this discussion, one thing I want to see if we can agree upon, as a woman who has been masturbating since I was 9 or 10 and who is a ardent supporter of masturbation rights: masturbation CAN become a problem/issue. 

In my experience and with my husband, it becomes a problem when the brain gets wired to have an orgasm primarily via masturbation.

One thing my husband has repeatedly said is that there is a pressure control during masturbation that makes it easy for him to have an orgasm when he wants to. His fantasies are utterly selfish, completely about self-satisfying.

When he and I are having sex, it's not all just about him anymore. It's more "work" - the way and frequency he has approached and included masturbation in his life has made him lazy when it comes to real encounters.

There needs to be some supportive conversation to a woman who is being told by her husband that sex with her is "work" - and I'm talking about a man who is attracted to his wife, a woman who is sexy and attractive and imaginative and open, etc. Not talking about try to screw an ugly prude who just lays there waiting for things to be over. I'm talking about a man who would rather masturbate than try and figure out how to find and care about his living, breathing partner's clitoris as much as he wants her to pay attention to his penis.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> So, gentlemen, as a part of this discussion, one thing I want to see if we can agree upon, as a woman who has been masturbating since I was 9 or 10 and who is a ardent supporter of masturbation rights: masturbation CAN become a problem/issue.


I could be wrong, but it sounds more like performance anxiety. As in he struggles to please you which makes it impossible for him to please himself. Therefor the only way he can orgasm is to imagine women that require no effort to be pleased. 

Question for you @happiness27 if you were aroused and wanted sexual intimacy with your husband, could you just use him (as long as he can get erect) to pleasure yourself without any regard for his pleasure? If it turns out he really enjoys that, would you feel he is being selfish? 

Many years back, I went through some performance anxiety when my wife insisted if I was aroused and wanted to be with her that I should be able to climax quickly... AND keep going! It had the opposite effect on me. I almost become anorgasmic. It was not until we took the pressure away from orgasms with a game of tease and denial that I was actually able to fail at that way worse by having an orgasm AND keep going for a second. 

Sexuality in my opinion is highly counterintuitive. Especially when you find yourself in a gridlock. Sometimes you have to slam it in reverse to chase each other around again! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> One thing my husband has repeatedly said is that there is a pressure control during masturbation that makes it easy for him to have an orgasm when he wants to. His fantasies are utterly selfish, completely about self-satisfying.
> 
> When he and I are having sex, it's not all just about him anymore. It's more "work" - the way and frequency he has approached and included masturbation in his life has made him lazy when it comes to real encounters.
> 
> There needs to be some supportive conversation to a woman who is being told by her husband that sex with her is "work" - and I'm talking about a man who is attracted to his wife, a woman who is sexy and attractive and imaginative and open, etc. Not talking about try to screw an ugly prude who just lays there waiting for things to be over. I'm talking about a man who would rather masturbate than try and figure out how to find and care about his living, breathing partner's clitoris as much as he wants her to pay attention to his penis.


Well many men would love to be in your husband's shoes. Like you said he is lazy. Good sex does take effort, but it shouldn't be 'work'. Good sex should result in a spent pile of two people sweating and panting in exhaustion. That's what it's all about - at least for me anyway. I get immense pleasure out of pleasuring my wife. Is it a lot of work? Well I wouldn't call it work, but it does take effort. It is something that I greatly enjoy, so for me I am more than happy to put in the effort. Would I rather masturbate? Hell no! Do I masturbate? Yes but really not that often, and never if it's a choice between sex with my wife or masturbation. Not even close for me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Yes, this is the problem I have with my husband's masturbation. It not only involves people he OR he and I know and encounter - but they then go on for long periods of time. They become masturbation relationships he has with various women. Some of them have been close friends of mine in the past.
> 
> If this had been open, honest conversation and knowledge, a couple of things could have happened that I feel would have been better for both of us:
> 
> ...


And I agree, the whole thing turns into a problem if the frequent masturbation keeps a H (or in some cases a W) from having frequent satisfying sex with their SO.

That's a big problem. It's THE problem. 

Imho, and I could be wrong, but that makes any such H a weenie. 

🙄 very childish and selfish. 

He could at least do it in front of you, with you. Or while he gives you a front or back rub, that may turn into more 🥰🥰.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And I agree, the whole thing turns into a problem if the frequent masturbation keeps a H (or in some cases a W) from having frequent satisfying sex with their SO.
> 
> That's a big problem. It's THE problem.
> 
> ...


Over the past few years - and it probably had something to do with A&P courses I was taking - and some TED Talks I watched, I've digested a lot of information about the physicality of sex. Interestingly, the sexual tension stage - the anticipation stage...dressing up...primping...going out, etc) creates an intense set of chemical reactions. The release is something we all tend to focus on the most - but the flirting, the excitement of wondering what someone looks like naked, the fragrances, the touches we imagine - all of that is - TO ME - very much a part of the sex act. 

When you see chick flick movies like 50 Shades or name-a-romance-movie - one of the things they have in common is the heavy concentration of the sexual tension stage. Damn, there's a scene in Roadhouse with Patrick Swayze and Kelly Lynch that's...ai-yi-yi.

To me, if you have a full time partner you dig, where there is mutual turn on...why on earth would you waste that relationship on heavy masturbation instead of tearing up the sheets in between naps all the weekends you can spare?

In some cases, and perhaps in his - he may have become addicted to the sexual tension stage, which is better experienced by cruising on a daily basis. 

I admit, I'm not a silly girl who acts submissive and flirty. I'm probably more of a dominant. I thought it was something that worked for him - but I think now that it doesn't work all the time. I think a lot of his fantasies are him taking a more dominant role. 

Most of my former lovers (not that I had a ton of them) were bigger guys who actually got a kick out of a small woman playfully bossing them around before they pinned me down and had their way with me. 

I may not have appreciated that a smaller guy might not like that as much. He would have to have told me that or exhibited a different role - because I would not have automatically have changed my natural approach otherwise. 

I'm bossy in bed but I do it as an attempted turn on. I'm really positive that I don't have to ability to act silly and helpless. It's just not me. Now that I'm writing this, I'm starting to feel bad. I wonder if the dynamic is just mismatched and I didn't realize it all this time.

I'm also a smart-ass in bed. I remember the first time we made love and when it was over - he had such a surprised look on his face that I tried to break the tension with "Kinda like f-ing a Goddess, eh?"


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

If you’re going to shame your partner’s sexuality be prepared to reap the consequences. It’s gonna go underground and create resentment when it is discovered. 

Your partner has four choices:
- Willing participant 
- Indifferent / obligatory participant 
- Non participant / ignore
- Non participant / shaming 

The top two are loving... the bottom two not so much.

All that being said, once porn is introduced you pretty have polluted the well so to speak as porn is sex deconstructed or a form of “sexual crack.” It does change the brain giving you the high like cocaine and the mellowness of opioids. The more do it, the more your brain needs it. This is scientifically proven.

In terms of the HD/LD mismatch, it’s really hard for a perpetually well-hydrated person with water available any time they want to relate to someone who is chronically dehydrated. 

Whether we like it or not, we ALL choose to outsource parts of our relationship. Sex is just one example. If a partner choose not to go fishing or antiquing that’s their choice. They are outsourcing meeting that need to someone else willing to do that. Likely a buddy. Same goes for heart to heart talks... some guys say “nope” and it’s outsourced to her girlfriends. Don’t feel like flirting or making yourself desirable? You are outsourcing that to any stranger, friend or coworker and likely they are capturing your partners eye not you. In terms of sexual release, a married man’s only option is masturbating if his wife doesn’t want to participate. But honestly masturbation is like fast food... you’re not hungry afterwards but long-term you know it’s not good for you or satisfying and your body may end up preferring that to regular food.

Now that being said, if you just prefer DIY over the real deal than you both need to see a sexual counselor about this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> To me, if you have a full time partner you dig, where there is mutual turn on...why on earth would you waste that relationship on heavy masturbation instead of tearing up the sheets in between naps all the weekends you can spare?


 @happiness27 if you continue to validate your complaints among other HD people, I am fairly certain that it will only serve to make you even more resentful. 

Are you looking for the strength to reconcile or trying to give yourself permission to end the relationship?

If you want to reconcile, look for another area of your relationship where things are mismatched and roles are reversed. Stop focusing all your efforts on sex and look at the complete picture. If you find an area where you are holding and limiting the relationship, that is the key to better understanding your husband. Working on yourself openly with him in that regard also pushes him to do the same for you. Lean into your own faults, and do so with vulnerability. Don't compromise your integrity to solve problems. Do the opposite. But find an area of the relationship that stands to improve by you doing so.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

There are guys who like talking when having sex, some who don't. 

There are some woman who start talking about their day, after the H says hey sweetheart let's get your panties off, yet the woman still talks about her day while taking panties off, mostly the H is thinking about no panties and if a W continues the H feels he has to stop and comment or answer on her non sexual day time stuff, which puts him off.

Literally it's hard to have a conversation with a W about mundane stuff while he's thinking only about sex with her, that's a buzz killer.

Now I like good sex related talk but in years past if DW started talking about her day past a certain point I mentally put her conversation on ignore unless we made it a point to shift gears away from sex.

Sometimes the ignore button was the answer but after a while she picked up on that and only sex is on our mind if we start down that road.

We also have an understanding that even if we're having a disagreement about other stuff, we still have sex when either want to, we don't let bullcrap keep us from enjoying each other, which makes problem solving easier, anyway.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, it, like most things, can be a problem. I think the key is whether it interferes with a couples sex life. I generally think that it should be very rare to turn down sex with a partner, and then take care of ones self. 

Most people enjoy pleasing their partners. When they don't that is a separate serious problem. 




happiness27 said:


> snip
> So, gentlemen, as a point of this discussion, one thing I want to see if we can agree upon, as a woman who has been masturbating since I was 9 or 10 and who is a ardent supporter of masturbation rights: masturbation CAN become a problem/issue.
> 
> In my experience and with my husband, it becomes a problem when the brain gets wired to have an orgasm primarily via masturbation.
> ...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> @happiness27 if you continue to validate your complaints among other HD people, I am fairly certain that it will only serve to make you even more resentful.
> 
> Are you looking for the strength to reconcile or trying to give yourself permission to end the relationship?
> 
> If you want to reconcile, look for another area of your relationship where things are mismatched and roles are reversed. Stop focusing all your efforts on sex and look at the complete picture. If you find an area where you are holding and limiting the relationship, that is the key to better understanding your husband. Working on yourself openly with him in that regard also pushes him to do the same for you. Lean into your own faults, and do so with vulnerability. Don't compromise your integrity to solve problems. Do the opposite. But find an area of the relationship that stands to improve by you doing so.


I'm venting because I've put years of effort into working on getting an honest and open relationship and we're just basically right back where we started. 

It's not my fault he's dishonest. He was that way when I met him. I just didn't know the full extent of it until I was really far into the relationship.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Yes, it, like most things, can be a problem. I think the key is whether it interferes with a couples sex life. I generally think that it should be very rare to turn down sex with a partner, and then take care of ones self.
> 
> Most people enjoy pleasing their partners. When they don't that is a separate serious problem.


I don't know how many women would agree that men are a bit lost when it comes to pleasing a woman. Now, maybe that could be put another way: men are, perhaps, easier to please? (Open mouth, insert c*ck, open legs, insert c*ck...moan, moan, done.)

Screwdriver, screw...turn until tightened (guy) vs. BLUEPRINT with underground tunnels, balconies, in-ground pool and A-frame loft (gal).

Some guys might roll up their sleeves and say, "I got this" and put it all together while others may say "That better come assembled"


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not sure I completely agree.

Getting a guy off is often straightforward, but that isn't the same as good sex. (some women are also easy to get off - but again that isn't really the main goal).

Both men and women need to learn what their partners really enjoy, not just what makes them O. Most people can get themselves off more quickly than partner can do it for them - but just getting an O isn't the goal. 






happiness27 said:


> I don't know how many women would agree that men are a bit lost when it comes to pleasing a woman. Now, maybe that could be put another way: men are, perhaps, easier to please? (Open mouth, insert c*ck, open legs, insert c*ck...moan, moan, done.)
> 
> Screwdriver, screw...turn until tightened (guy) vs. BLUEPRINT with underground tunnels, balconies, in-ground pool and A-frame loft (gal).
> 
> Some guys might roll up their sleeves and say, "I got this" and put it all together while others may say "That better come assembled"


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@happiness27 

An excerpt from your post:

"Yes, this is the problem I have with my husband's masturbation. It not only involves people he OR he and I know and encounter - but they then go on for long periods of time. *They become masturbation relationships he has with various women.* Some of them have been close friends of mine in the past."

I'm a little confused, just for clarification, are these online live video between them while they masturbate? Or what?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Quote:
Originally Posted by happiness27 View Post
I don't know how many women would agree that men are a bit lost when it comes to pleasing a woman. Now, maybe that could be put another way: men are, perhaps, easier to please? (Open mouth, insert c*ck, open legs, insert c*ck...moan, moan, done.)

Screwdriver, screw...turn until tightened (guy) vs. BLUEPRINT with underground tunnels, balconies, in-ground pool and A-frame loft (gal).

Some guys might roll up their sleeves and say, "I got this" and put it all together while others may say "That better come assembled"



uhtred said:


> Not sure I completely agree.
> 
> Getting a guy off is often straightforward, but that isn't the same as good sex. (some women are also easy to get off - but again that isn't really the main goal).
> 
> Both men and women need to learn what their partners really enjoy, not just what makes them O. Most people can get themselves off more quickly than partner can do it for them - but just getting an O isn't the goal.


This nuanced part of talking about a guy's pleasure has me sort of baffled. I would like for the most blunt, straight-forward, honest guy to reply to this. My impression is that getting an O is exactly what is most important to a guy. It's the foremost thing on his mind - MOST guys. 

How is "good sex" different than that? A woman who gets super hyped up about him and makes his O better? When I hear a guy say "That's not the main goal..." I get really confused - because it actually appears to be the main goal but when you say it's not - I feel my observation is just coming from me being crazy. I'm saying it's raining outside and you're saying "No, it's not."

So, I assume you are a good source of information for me here, guys - and I really do want/need to understand. But don't b.s. me about this. 

I agree with you Ultred - that having sex with a partner just has so many great components to it that really are terrific. I guess I think of it as a difference in gulping a bunch of fast food vs. savoring the delicate flavor nuances of a chef-prepared dish. I prefer the later.

I just don't get the impression that guys do. It hasn't been my sex life experience with guys. 

And there's a huge (large numbers of) dialogue from women that sex with men is a.) centered on his pleasure and b.) he's relatively clueless about woman's anatomy and c.) he's clueless POSSIBLY because there's a disconnect between what he actually knows, what he thinks he knows and how much he's willing to admit he's missing in terms of information.

There's a book, oddly by a man therapist, that has gotten really good reviews - called "She Comes First"

Are there any others do you think?

For me, I know I spent a lot of time studying various techniques to please my husband, aside from just taking a genuine interest in him sexually. 

When he's able to be honest with me, reciprocating with that level of interest in my sexuality doesn't presently exist. He expects me to kind of take care of that - and if he makes any attempts and they are off the mark and require some adjustment, that would hurt his feelings because...he feels he's already supposed to know that stuff.

I'm trying to get somewhere with this conversation - I'm not trying to destroy anybody's interest or hurt feelings.

Let me try and put it this way - if some gal was performing fellatio but wasn't the way that you liked it, would you talk about some different ways that could be different that would be better? Or would you just keep it to yourself and avoid that activity - and maybe find a different sex partner? 

I don't know - I'm not sure what to do when cunnilingus is, frankly, a rather tricky sexual activity to perform. Women just have different approaches to sex than men - that's been my experience at least. For them, it looks easier from my vantage point. For women, the clitoris is so very relatively smaller that it can appear baffling as to how to light that little wick. 

If it's difficult, some men aren't going to bother - maybe not because they don't care but they just don't know how to go about it. Add to all that that women have been taught to lie to avoid any appearance of hurting a man's feelings - that the experience just doesn't have any safe ground for achieving an honest, common understanding.

Once a woman's wick is lit, it's a wildfire. I don't want that to be an intimidating task - I don't want to feel like that is an intimidating task. I would like for it to be a desired endeavor.

Does that make sense?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

You ask a lot of good questions and most men would appreciate your level of interest in sex and the pursuit of varying and improving sex.

Re the fellatio question: inexperienced males may try and ride out and endure "poorly conducted" blowjobs.

More experienced males will tactfully, kindly, but passionately guide a woman as she's doing it, because there are poor, fair, and great blowjobs, and all variations in between. There are terrible bjs as well. 

Men who love women's bodies will have taken the time to learn and become better lovers, and are always in tune with their partner's actions and reactions and heartily encourage her to thoroughly enjoy herself. Such a man takes his time, or if the woman want's it hard and fast like a Viking taking his woman, he reads her, and does that too.

With such a man, his O isn't his whole focus, his O is an end result of a great time of enjoying his woman greatly during a sexual encounter from 5 minutes to a couple hours or as the circumstance dictate.

Performing cunnilingus is a skill many men take the care and time to learn, and tailor each session to the woman, yet all follow certain building blocks to her O.

Ragnar


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You ask a lot of good questions and most men would appreciate your level of interest in sex and the pursuit of varying and improving sex.
> 
> Re the fellatio question: inexperienced males may try and ride out and endure "poorly conducted" blowjobs.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the honesty. I wasn't sure if there are "terrible bjs" so it's good to know that. 

I don't require a lot of direct touch to get turned on. My preference is a bunch of low-touch flirting - anywhere from an evening out, an hour of stolen glances at the gym, half hour of caressing "everything but" on the couch... and then bust everything off and hit it for 4-7 minutes. I will O fast and better without doing 45 minutes of pounding, which just gets both of us numb and exhausted.

Hubs in the opposite. If we even begin to get interested, he wants clothes off right away and immediate screwing. I'm just not ready enough and I end up having to play catch up. If he slows down, I can see the tension in his face and I get discouraged that I can't perform fast enough. 

I wish there was something that would break us out of this pattern. It doesn't always happen but it happens often enough that if he is interested in sex (daily), I don't bother expecting to O, I'd rather just turn around and let him get off because foreplay for me is an afterthought.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I don't know how many women would agree that men are a bit lost when it comes to pleasing a woman. Now, maybe that could be put another way: men are, perhaps, easier to please? (Open mouth, insert c*ck, open legs, insert c*ck...moan, moan, done.)
> 
> Screwdriver, screw...turn until tightened (guy) vs. BLUEPRINT with underground tunnels, balconies, in-ground pool and A-frame loft (gal).
> 
> Some guys might roll up their sleeves and say, "I got this" and put it all together while others may say "That better come assembled"


OMG, that is funny!

In my marriage as the higher desire partner, I am the one that is harder to please. My blueprints are counterintuitive. A long time ago I asked my wife about one of my fantasies. Her response at the time was, "makes no difference to me if you want to do that, just don't ask me to take responsibility for it. You will need to just do whatever it takes on your own for that to happen. And I would prefer you not ask or tell me if and when you are doing it when we are together" 

As in your idea of "as long as it comes preassembled!" 

In reality I actually ended up enjoying preassembling my fantasies in a way that I could share them with my wife in a way that was simple and natural for her. After a while she begin to ask me questions as to why I enjoyed doing this slightly different thing that I was doing. Once I explained it to her, she was willing to participate. Once she realized the advantages and how easy it was to accommodate, she now enjoys using that to twist my mind in the most pleasurable ways. 

My point being is that the "High Desire" partner is the difficult one to please. Once I recognized that I made it a point to work on that and just keep it as simple as possible, and even preassemble if needed.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A few things: (and being blunt):

Most men can get an O any time they want with very little effort. Many women can as well, especially if they us a vibrator. In terms of physical sensations there are sex toys for both men and women that in general are as nice or better (certainly *faster* to get off) than the real thing.

But despite that most men and women seek out sex. I think that is because an O really isn't the goal - it may be a necessary requirement for sex to be good, but its not in itself sufficient. 

So now I have to stop being general and be specific to me because despite having the the same general body structure, I can't speak for billions of men, only for myself.

Sex is fun because of the interaction with you partner. Its the shared fun / pleasure / excitement whatever. For some couples there can be a lot of great varieties - it's candle lights one night and candle wax the next :wink2: There is a huge variety in how a couple can make love, and I'm not just talking about the specific position - often the attitude / atmosphere is more important. 

For me I *don't* want my wife to get me off as fast as she can - she knows how to do that fairly quickly, but its dull (if done all the time). She also seems a bit confused by this, and interestingly she does usually seem to want me to get her off as quickly as possible. I'd much rather take a long time with buildup. Its not just that the final O is more intense (though it usually is), but that the buildup itself is fun.

Again - this is me. I'm sure there are guys who just want to get off. No idea of they are the majority. I just don't understand why they don't just get a fleshlight and take care of themselves in a couple of minutes to get it over with. Why bother with another person at all if you are just trying to get off. 

The other side of this is that I actively enjoy pleasing my wife. I get aroused doing it and want to get off as well, but I very much enjoy pleasing her. I've done my best to learn what she enjoys most and to do it. The only real difficulty is that we seem to enjoy very different sorts of lovemaking - strangely I'm the one who wishes it would last a lot longer.

One big key is communication - both being willing to say AND being willing to listen to what your partner says. It can be really frustrating to ask if your partner will to X, and have them say, "but Y seems to work better" meaning Y gets you off faster. Much worse is the "why would you want X", where they treat a request as if you are a pervert. 

Best is if both partners are comfortable asking, and comfortable saying "no" politely to something they don't want without dismissing or mocking the request. 

As far as technique, its helpful to tell your partner what you want - and can always keep it positive "please do XYZ", not "you are doing ABC wrong its not working". (even if the latter is true, don't complain, give them something to do that you would like better)


Oral sex is more difficult to do well than many men or women think. There *are* bad blowjobs, but many men are so happy to get anything that they won't dare ask for anything else. 

Of course a couple that enjoys enough variety and kink can make teaching part of a game. If you are playing some from of master / mistress and slave then ordering the slave to do *exactly* what you want fits right in. Then that can be carried over into romantic lovemaking. 


In general though, I'd much rather *be* a great lover, than be with a great lover. Pride is my favorite sin, not lust. 






happiness27 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by happiness27 View Post
> I don't know how many women would agree that men are a bit lost when it comes to pleasing a woman. Now, maybe that could be put another way: men are, perhaps, easier to please? (Open mouth, insert c*ck, open legs, insert c*ck...moan, moan, done.)
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> This nuanced part of talking about a guy's pleasure has me sort of baffled. I would like for the most blunt, straight-forward, honest guy to reply to this. My impression is that getting an O is exactly what is most important to a guy. It's the foremost thing on his mind - MOST guys.
> 
> How is "good sex" different than that? A woman who gets super hyped up about him and makes his O better? When I hear a guy say "That's not the main goal..." I get really confused - because it actually appears to be the main goal but when you say it's not - I feel my observation is just coming from me being crazy. I'm saying it's raining outside and you're saying "No, it's not."


To me great sex is about feeling extremely confident when my spouse induces a sexual adrenaline rush that I can almost overpower with mindful relaxation. An orgasm simply stops me from killing myself while in pursuit of that!


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

I've read "She Comes First" and I got a lot out of it. My wife has benefited greatly from that read. I can honestly say that I get as much if not more pleasure out of giving her pleasure than my own finish. Don't get me wrong - I finish every time, but I make sure my wife is well taken care of before I even think about my O. I enjoy the hell out of it. My ex wife was pretty closed off and non adventurous in the bedroom, so when I got a divorce I can honestly say I was not the most skilled lover. I can sympathize with your situation because I wanted way more sex than my ex was willing to provide. She wasn't jerking off behind my back, she just didn't want sex nearly as much as I did. But I love sex and I love the feminine form, so when I found a sexual match in my current wife it was off to the races. Her past partners were not high drive either, but as we came to find out very quickly she is very sexual and very high drive just like me. We unleashed the beast in each other and just can't get enough. So I think it depends a lot on the relationship dynamic, and it also depends on the sex drive and desire of both people involved.

I also think many men are conditioned to think that they should just know how to please a woman. I did for a lot of years. When I went down south I was just aimlessly wandering through a dark cave. Then it was 3 minutes to the finish and "wow that was awesome honey - wasn't it?". No it wasn't awesome. It wasn't until after my divorce that I realized I could be so much better of a lover. I'm pretty sure I'm on the right track now - that journey will never end for me

One of the funniest lines of all time:


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> OMG, that is funny!
> 
> In my marriage as the higher desire partner, I am the one that is harder to please. My blueprints are counterintuitive. A long time ago I asked my wife about one of my fantasies. Her response at the time was, "makes no difference to me if you want to do that, just don't ask me to take responsibility for it. You will need to just do whatever it takes on your own for that to happen. And I would prefer you not ask or tell me if and when you are doing it when we are together"
> 
> ...


I didn't think of it that way - the the HD partner is more difficult to please. Holy crap. I think you're right.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Appreciate the honesty. I wasn't sure if there are "terrible bjs" so it's good to know that.
> 
> I don't require a lot of direct touch to get turned on. My preference is a bunch of low-touch flirting - anywhere from an evening out, an hour of stolen glances at the gym, half hour of caressing "everything but" on the couch... and then bust everything off and hit it for 4-7 minutes. I will O fast and better without doing 45 minutes of pounding, which just gets both of us numb and exhausted.
> 
> ...


You're doing great. My kind of Viking woman. Don't let the daily grind change your outlook.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Tex X said:


> I've read "She Comes First" and I got a lot out of it. My wife has benefited greatly from that read. I can honestly say that I get as much if not more pleasure out of giving her pleasure than my own finish. Don't get me wrong - I finish every time, but I make sure my wife is well taken care of before I even think about my O. I enjoy the hell out of it. My ex wife was pretty closed off and non adventurous in the bedroom, so when I got a divorce I can honestly say I was not the most skilled lover. I can sympathize with your situation because I wanted way more sex than my ex was willing to provide. She wasn't jerking off behind my back, she just didn't want sex nearly as much as I did. But I love sex and I love the feminine form, so when I found a sexual match in my current wife it was off to the races. Her past partners were not high drive either, but as we came to find out very quickly she is very sexual and very high drive just like me. We unleashed the beast in each other and just can't get enough. So I think it depends a lot on the relationship dynamic, and it also depends on the sex drive and desire of both people involved.
> 
> I also think many men are conditioned to think that they should just know how to please a woman. I did for a lot of years. When I went down south I was just aimlessly wandering through a dark cave. Then it was 3 minutes to the finish and "wow that was awesome honey - wasn't it?". No it wasn't awesome. It wasn't until after my divorce that I realized I could be so much better of a lover. I'm pretty sure I'm on the right track now - that journey will never end for me
> 
> ...


I have never seen that movie!! How did I miss it?!

Well, I introduced my husband to "She Comes First"

We aren't giving up.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> I tried the same a few years back and failed because perhaps I did not yet understand them. My wife asked me a few questions that I did not understand how to answer and she assumed I was just trying to feed her a line of crap and manipulate her into more sex. This time around I found a way to do it and be honest in which she had no choice but to attribute my fantasies to her.


My wife is fully aware that my fantasies are indeed about her. I think she's uncomfortable with me fantasizing about things she doesn't want to do. Like women say they dont like their husbands watching porn because they cant compete with those artificially enhanced women... I think my wife feels like she cant compare to my fantasies of her. It just makes her feel inadequate and withdraw even more.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

my thoughts

normal people like orgasms

normal people like orgasms brought on by stimulation by a favored partner

favored partners like to experience reciprocal experience


absent the preferred partner - what do do? FLESHLIGHT or THE RABBIT!

OK so what do you focus on while enjoying self eroticism? 

Whatever turns you on!


"partner has a problem with that NOT being them?" - not much you can do about it but demure your answers to the question(s) regarding what are you thinking (visualizing) while self stimulating.

the FIX? accept the sexes have different "visualizations" to get going and accept - it is fantasy
(the visualizations part)

end of problem

better end - figure out how to spend more time together mutually stimulating each other - that takes - ahem! - COMMUNICAITON.

You're getting a ratty ass BJ, tell her (him, yuck) how to do what feels good.

her? he's licking your navel and has no clue where your clitoris is? SHOW HIM! Grab his head and tell him when his tongue hits home!


Best GF I ever had - held my head and gave me verbal feedback on how to provide - best lession I ever had


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> Masturbating is just a nasty little, sinful, shadow of actual sex...


 Oh yes, masturbating is SO much worse than banging your wife *literally *right behind your toddler as the 3 of you sit on the bed watching TV. And as you explained in that post, the reason you engaged in such utterly *repulsive* behavior is because you don't believe in birth control and have 27 kids in the house and therefore, just can't find time alone to create the 28th. Yuck.

I'm sure everyone will agree that having sex a foot away from your toddler while she's looking the other way is MUCH less 'sinful' and much more _decent _than the nasty business of *privately *masturbating. :crazy:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> This nuanced part of talking about a guy's pleasure has me sort of baffled. I would like for the most blunt, straight-forward, honest guy to reply to this. My impression is that getting an O is exactly what is most important to a guy. It's the foremost thing on his mind - MOST guys.


I am speaking only for myself here, and playing the recall game from when I was dating as well as my current relationship, which was sexless upon initially coming to TAM.

It is more nuanced than that. The O is the cherry on top.

Before that comes the moment when I KNOW sex will happen. This is followed by feelings of anticipation, her response to the things I am doing to her body during foreplay, upping the urgency here or reducing the urgency there, maybe leaving her panties on because that is hot as hell to see while moving in and out of her, the feeling of conquest upon initial entry (which is awesome...sort of like the first bite from a slice of pizza... :grin2, the way she moves and gets a little lost/overwhelmed at climax(es), the slight look of wonder on her face when I move her to a new or different position...then the O.

Notice most of that involves emotion more than a physical release. There are many different things in play here: the mating game, pleasure, power, dominance, submission...others. 

With porn, all of the emotion gets bypassed. Then it becomes focused only on urgency, followed by the release. See the difference?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My wife is fully aware that my fantasies are indeed about her. I think she's uncomfortable with me fantasizing about things she doesn't want to do. Like women say they dont like their husbands watching porn because they cant compete with those artificially enhanced women... *I think my wife feels like she cant compare to my fantasies of her. It just makes her feel inadequate and withdraw even more.*


That is a very good point. I think I have been working for well over five years to help my wife with her self confidence. Those five years of focus on that have helped, but yet I know my wife still struggles.

Now that my wife is confident about herself when we are alone, I asked her, "would you rather me to be married to a woman that is NOT the object of my desire?" She immediately laughed and insisted, "that would make things so much easier in our marriage" but she so quickly realized that even though she thought she was making a joke about my overwhelming desire for sex that it was not me that she was criticizing. She then went into this nervous giggle of irony realizing that she just admitted that our marriage would be better if she were indeed ugly and undesirable.

She then quietly admitted that she likes the effort I put into our marriage that lets her know how much I desire her.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> That is a very good point. I think I have been working for well over five years to help my wife with her self confidence. Those five years of focus on that have helped, but yet I know my wife still struggles with her self confidence.
> 
> Now that my wife is confident about herself when we are alone, I asked her, "would you rather me to be married to a woman that is NOT the object of my desire?" She immediately laughed and insisted, "that would make things so much easier in our marriage" but she so quickly realized that even though she thought she was making a joke about my overwhelming desire for sex that it was not me that she was criticizing. She then went into this nervous giggle of irony realizing that she just admitted that our marriage would be better if she were indeed ugly and undesirable.
> 
> She then quietly admitted that she likes the effort I put into our marriage that lets her know how much I desire her.


We've had a very similar conversation!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> We've had a very similar conversation!


I enjoy twisting that conversation around. I am aware of my faults and that I am not as handsome as the marvel comic heroes. Our dark and playful banter will go like this:

ME: I am so handsome and genius that you can't get enough of me!

WIFE: Yeah Right! (laughing ironically)

ME: Well you married me, so that is where I get all my confidence!

WIFE: Those were dark times and I was not able to make smart decisions back then! (as if to try and take a stab at me)

ME: In your defense, you had not yet finished your doctorate degree, so you probably were making some stupid decisions. 

WIFE: (ironic giggle) Just be glad you caught me before I wised up!

ME: Exactly! That is why I am so genius!!!!! Are you just NOW figuring that out? Gosh hunny you are still a little slow aren't you? 

WIFE: (Speechless) _but admitting I got her on that one._


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

ShatteredKat said:


> my thoughts
> 
> normal people like orgasms
> 
> ...


Again - one's visualizations during self-stimulation are not an issue UNLESS they are an obsession with another actual individual...for WEEKS OR MONTHS ON END. That, to me, becomes an attachment to another person which is associated with sexual pleasure he can't achieve with his spouse. That indicates a problem that needs to be addressed.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I enjoy twisting that conversation around. I am aware of my faults and that I am not as handsome as the marvel comic heroes. Our dark and playful banter will go like this:
> 
> ME: I am so handsome and genius that you can't get enough of me!
> 
> ...


That's a kind of banter that is almost a lost art - SO MUCH fun with a clever partner to see how long you can keep the clever retorts going.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

another update on this thread...

Over the years I have struggled to understand why my wife has a negative attitude toward self pleasure aside from being taught that it was so from the Catholic Church. In all honesty I don't see that being something that the Catholic religion would just hammer on about everyday again and again to instill such a strong belief in someone. Otherwise at Sunday school the teacher would have to address that topic often, review it, perhaps give a pop quiz and scold Little Johny in front of the class for horribly failing the quiz and drawing obscene doodles all over it. Instead I think this teaching is one that some people seek out through reading and perhaps use it to validate the way they already feel. Anyway, I am just saying that I don't blame the church on this one...

In a conversation with my wife she reiterated something she told me a while back. Before I had not thought much about this. It is something that not only would give her a negative view on self pleasure as well as marital intercourse. That is the notion that sex energizes her. More so than drinking a few cups of coffee. We recently had great sex just before going to bed a few days back, and I asked her that it could be that great or better would she enjoy trying that for everyday for a week. She looked at me and said that doing so would be horrible because she would go a week without being able to sleep. 

So looking back over so many years, the majority of time my wife tells me no probably has been related to the fact that she really needed a good night of sleep. My initiating things at 10pm was on par with asking her to go to Starbucks and grab an espresso. Her way of saying no over the past few decades would be, "I really just need to sleep!" So she was not rejecting me so much so as she was letting me know that she just wanted to sleep because she was tired and also had a busy day planned tomorrow. 

This means my wife's sexuality is best suited for mid-day. Coincidentally that happens at the busiest time of our work days when we are both also under a lot of stress and deadlines. Even I have trouble at that time. 

So back to self pleasure, if my wife tends to be a very busy person driven by work and career goals, then there is simply no time for self pleasure during the day. If it is something that interferes with her sleep, then she probably views it as a nuisance to find herself aroused at bedtime. The Catholic teachings that masturbation as a sin only serve to validate the fact that she is a busy person and that it interferes with her sleep. 

Looking back over the years when we would schedule things, my wife preferred mid afternoon. While that was not easy for me as it coincides with a time of the day I am busy, I made it happen. 

Things seem as if they are starting to make more sense.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @happiness27
> 
> An excerpt from your post:
> 
> ...


No, just visualizations of the same woman repeatedly for long periods of time. 

That sounds simple and harmless - it would be if it didn't interfere with sex with me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> No, just visualizations of the same woman repeatedly for long periods of time.
> 
> That sounds simple and harmless - it would be if it didn't interfere with sex with me.


To me at least this is where Hs responsibility for the issue falls squarely; into the bucket of things that he could change, things that interfere with having sex with you his SO.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> No, just visualizations of the same woman repeatedly for long periods of time.
> 
> That sounds simple and harmless - it would be if it didn't interfere with sex with me.


 @happiness27 to me the fact that your spouse is so open about what, who, and how he thinks when masturbating would suggest that A) he is unusually open about things that most men keep private, B) that you are very intrusive into his privacy, or C) he tells you those things to try and hurt you. 

I could be completely wrong about this after some recent reading. I have a bad habit of projecting concepts that I have recently read about. But nonetheless this could prove useful if only for a different way to look at things...

Psychology suggests that people struggle to hate the people in our lives that we are supposed to love. It is something within all of us that we struggle to reconcile. Because growing up we are always taught to be loving and kind to our family members and that it is NOT OK to feel hatred towards that person, many people grow up ignoring feelings of hate. The article I read went onto say that it is very natural to sometimes feel hatred towards those we are close to and that we should listen to those feelings as opposed to ignoring them. (blah blah blah for twenty pages) ...and in conclusion those feelings of hatred are signals that someone needs to work on personal development such as self-soothing, feeling confident about who you are, and staying calm when a partner is in an emotional crisis as opposed to reacting strongly to it.

So this psychology book then goes on to talk about how this bottled up hatred for those we love, such as a spouse can manifest itself in the form of marital masochism. And this is a form of deriving sexual pleasure from hurting someone we love. The book suggests that this dynamic plays out significantly in a lot of long term relationships. Awkwardly it can become imprinted onto one's sexual behaviors as normal to feel good about hurting someone you love. Almost in a revengeful kind of way. Things like this can be embraced in the forms of lovemaking getting really kinky in the bedroom, or couples can work on their self development which generally lends itself to a much healthier and stable long term relationship. 

Something to think about!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> I am speaking only for myself here, and playing the recall game from when I was dating as well as my current relationship, which was sexless upon initially coming to TAM.
> 
> It is more nuanced than that. The O is the cherry on top.
> 
> ...


I think it's going to take whatever it takes for my husband to get more involved. I don't think he thinks very much like what you are describing. He's very focused on the O. He's so focused on that - that when he tries to do anything else, I can't get passed thinking that he's just trying to do me a favor by doing some stuff he thinks I'll like. I am just making things complicated on my end by getting it in my head that he isn't actually enjoying anything he's doing that doesn't involve PIV.

And, FWIW, I think it's super awesome and sweet how people O, no matter what it sounds like - but I'm extremely embarrassed about myself. I'm very noisy, not a screamer but I make a LOT of noise when I O - it's unmistakable, crazy - but orgasms are insanely pleasurable to me and I literally can't help it. I lose my mind for the duration of the orgasm - and then afterwards for about 20 minutes, I'm pretty high. My husband is already over it and doesn't get my glow - like he just leaves me there to sort of get over myself.

It took a long time for me to get my husband to make any noise at all when he orgasmed. He would hold his breath like he was still back in his room he shared with two brothers. I was, like, "there's literally no one else here except us in a house that is on an acre in the middle of 30 acres. No one is going to hear you."

I'm trying to think of something I haven't tried with him over the years. I've really really put a lot of effort into this. But I have this hang up where I think - ultimately...he can't wait to get to the O. The rest of the stuff is just to humor me.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Do you hear yourself? Humor you?

How you have managed to turn that into a negative is something you need to examine.

Let's assume you are 100% correct. Are you indicating that him doing something selflessly for you is a problem?



happiness27 said:


> I think it's going to take whatever it takes for my husband to get more involved. I don't think he thinks very much like what you are describing. He's very focused on the O. He's so focused on that - that when he tries to do anything else, I can't get passed thinking that he's just trying to do me a favor by doing some stuff he thinks I'll like. I am just making things complicated on my end by getting it in my head that he isn't actually enjoying anything he's doing that doesn't involve PIV.
> 
> And, FWIW, I think it's super awesome and sweet how people O, no matter what it sounds like - but I'm extremely embarrassed about myself. I'm very noisy, not a screamer but I make a LOT of noise when I O - it's unmistakable, crazy - but orgasms are insanely pleasurable to me and I literally can't help it. I lose my mind for the duration of the orgasm - and then afterwards for about 20 minutes, I'm pretty high. My husband is already over it and doesn't get my glow - like he just leaves me there to sort of get over myself.
> 
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Do you hear yourself? Humor you?
> 
> How you have managed to turn that into a negative is something you need to examine.
> 
> Let's assume you are 100% correct. Are you indicating that him doing something selflessly for you is a problem?


Hmmm.... 

I guess I just took it as it's always preferable to want a partner to want to do these things out of some innate desire rather than just going along to keep the peace. We guys are always saying how no sex is better than duty sex. That's the thought that jumped into my head here. Did I read too much into this based on personal bias and experience?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> We guys are always saying how no sex is better than duty sex.



I am not saying that...Provided wife is not being a  about it: any sex is better than no sex (with her).




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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I think it's going to take whatever it takes for my husband to get more involved. I don't think he thinks very much like what you are describing. He's very focused on the O. He's so focused on that - that when he tries to do anything else, I can't get passed thinking that he's just trying to do me a favor by doing some stuff he thinks I'll like. I am just making things complicated on my end by getting it in my head that he isn't actually enjoying anything he's doing that doesn't involve PIV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gremlins of the mind? 
You love orgasms yet you don’t like your husband making it The objective. One of the most common complaints I would say...

One of the hardest things is to stop the mind talking non sense the whole time. Have you tried meditation? I recommend 
Focus on your breathing/feelings and forget whoever it is trying to bring you to orgasm the whole time...or why.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> Gremlins of the mind?
> You love orgasms yet you don’t like your husband making it The objective. One of the most common complaints I would say...
> 
> One of the hardest things is to stop the mind talking non sense the whole time. Have you tried meditation? I recommend
> ...


I know I could stand to get my mind right - so you are right on there.

Right now, things are kind of a mess with us. He's gotten enamored with this woman he went to school with and his attempts to have sex with me are literally not working. He just flat out told me he wants to F her.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I know I could stand to get my mind right - so you are right on there.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now, things are kind of a mess with us. He's gotten enamored with this woman he went to school with and his attempts to have sex with me are literally not working. He just flat out told me he wants to F her.



That doesn’t sound right...Why does this crap keep happening to people? Can’t we all just stick to ****ing one person? (Not the same one person that is...that would be painful).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> I know I could stand to get my mind right - so you are right on there.
> 
> Right now, things are kind of a mess with us. He's gotten enamored with this woman he went to school with and his attempts to have sex with me are literally not working. He just flat out told me he wants to F her.


Devil's advocate here...

Have you ever tried role play? 

Is there something about your husband's sexuality that your would stand to learn since he seems to share the idea that he wants to F another woman. Could you pretend to be the other woman and enjoy messing with his mind? Your version of this women could be someone just as yourself that is bossy, but wants to be pinned down and F'd. What are the attributes of this other woman? Perhaps all you need is a wig and a slight change to your wardrobe based on what she wears in any photos.

My point being is that some people's sexuality is strongly based on role play. If that happens to be your husband, you have something to talk about. 

Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> That doesn’t sound right...Why does this crap keep happening to people? Can’t we all just stick to ****ing one person? (Not the same one person that is...that would be painful).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know, dude. 

I feel like I'm very liberal and creative in the bedroom. Some guys like a lot of variety and they can't see their way out of that - maybe there's just no incentive for them to think otherwise.

Right now, I'm just SMDH. I've got an acquaintance with stage 4 metastatic breast cancer that has a 20% five year survival rate. Her boyfriend just asked her to marry him. 

So, the stupid crap going on in my own marriage just seems like so much bullish*t by comparison.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Devil's advocate here...
> 
> Have you ever tried role play?
> 
> ...


I am trying to think of something I HAVEN'T tried. Yes, I've done the pretend in the dark that I'm a different woman. 

This particular woman he's been hot for since junior high and has seen her at every reunion. She's married, lives a good life with her handsome husband she's been married to since high school and totally oblivious to what my husband fantasizes. 

I am the initiator and creative heart and soul of our sex life. I am the one who has suggested and taken him to sex shops, to strip clubs, to swingers clubs, screwed him in unusual spaces, spent two-week long screwing sprees with him, ridden him every which way he can be ridden, blown him slowly, teasingly pinning him down like a dominatrix prostitute - let him handcuff me, screw me outdoors on our private balcony, watched him masturbate outside on our private patio naked while narrating how he is screwing some other woman he is hot for, gone to meet couples to potentially swap/screw with, worn a strap on and screwed him in the a*s, I've used all kinds of toys and costumed, watched all kinds of porn with him (although these have not been regular activities) - is there anything I'm leaving out that you think I should try?

I haven't had an actual, live three-way with him - but I've done a three-way myself back when I was single. I know he thinks he wants that. It really takes the right combo of people to pull something like this off. I can't stress this enough. It's part of the reason swinging isn't as easy as it sounds - you have to get four people lined up in agreement and that's difficult.

My absolute best sexual experiences have been with (rare) guys who are really confident, appreciative partners even if our relationship was mostly just sexual. I don't require that a guy do anything to "earn" sex - I like sex and if he shows up and gets hard with a smile, I'm in.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I don't know, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That’s terrible, I’m sorry to hear about your friend...Yeah, none of it matters really when faced with mortality.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> That’s terrible, I’m sorry to hear about your friend...Yeah, none of it matters really when faced with mortality.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know, it's killing my perspective right now and making me feel really pissed off at my husband. There's some thoughts in my brain that he really doesn't deserve my attention and my screaming, raging orgasms pouring wet p*ssy juice on his ungrateful d*ck.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> I am trying to think of something I HAVEN'T tried. Yes, I've done the pretend in the dark that I'm a different woman.
> 
> This particular woman he's been hot for since junior high and has seen her at every reunion. She's married, lives a good life with her handsome husband she's been married to since high school and totally oblivious to what my husband fantasizes.
> 
> ...




It’s nothing to do with you or your ‘inventiveness’...I know some men need variety (in terms of people). It’s a biological need.
Others need variety in the bedroom because it enhances the closeness with their partner for them. 
These are two very different things/needs. But I think it’s his issue he needs to work on. Or stop ****ing around and figure out what it is he wants....


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> It’s nothing to do with you or your ‘inventiveness’...I know some men need variety (in terms of people). It’s a biological need.
> Others need variety in the bedroom because it enhances the closeness with their partner for them.
> These are two very different things/needs. But I think it’s his issue he needs to work on. Or stop ****ing around and figure out what it is he wants....
> 
> ...


I'm sure you meant for HIM to stop *ucking around and figure out what he wants.

That's what I finally told him last night.

It boiled down to this: this has been going on for him since I met him back in '88/'89. It's his M.O. So, after all the therapy, the promises, the me standing on my head doing everything well beyond what probably most wives would do - and still him hiding and sneaking around with his lying and b.s., I'm done.

I told him, this is where I get in a vulnerable position such that when an opportunity comes along - I'm not necessarily gonna go looking for it right away - but when an opportunity comes along, I'm not passing it up. I will be above board - the other party will know the score of what's happening and my husband will be informed but I'm not playing this b.s. anymore. I want to screw and have Os and get thoroughly f'd and if my hubs isn't paying attention to do that, I will not refuse it from elsewhere.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> ...is there anything I'm leaving out that you think I should try?


Did you look at your overall marriage and discover any nonsexual areas where the roles of your sexual life are reversed? I asked you this earlier. You never answered. 

In everything you have said, I kind of feel like I have been in your shoes. I am to a point in my marriage where I am beginning to understand that you _can't_ fix gridlocked sexual problems with more sex and brute force attempts to try anything and everything in the bedroom to make it better.

You have to find an area of your marriage where you are the lower desire partner and understand what it would take for you to become motivated to make an improvement in that area of life (finances, family, career, and other areas of personal development). Ask your spouse to help you with it. In return things will naturally get better in other areas of your marriage. Not as in give and take personal development, but more as in inspiring each other to be better people, more loving and caring toward one another.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Did you look at your overall marriage and discover any nonsexual areas where the roles of your sexual life are reversed? I asked you this earlier. You never answered.
> 
> In everything you have said, I kind of feel like I have been in your shoes. I am to a point in my marriage where I am beginning to understand that you _can't_ fix gridlocked sexual problems with more sex and brute force attempts to try anything and everything in the bedroom to make it better.
> 
> You have to find an area of your marriage where you are the lower desire partner and understand what it would take for you to become motivated to make an improvement in that area of life (finances, family, career, and other areas of personal development). Ask your spouse to help you with it. In return things will naturally get better in other areas of your marriage. Not as in give and take personal development, but more as in inspiring each other to be better people, more loving and caring toward one another.


Once had a therapist recognized that my husband is what's called an "underfunctioner" whereas I'm a high-functioner. I'm self-motivated, planner, problem solver, assertive, decision maker. I'm sure he picked me out specifically because that is a perfect match for him - (aside from the very small shorts I wore for workouts after which I met him along with mutual friends). He literally asks me what is going to happen today, what are we going to do, what are we going to eat - extremely passive in real life. He's a quasi Walter Mitty when he gets into a relationship. 

In his fantasy world, he is this perfect handsome hero who all the women want to take their clothes off and let him fk them senseless. There are so many, he has to make them take turns. They are always instantly turned on and without any effort on his part, they each reliably orgasm at just the right time.

Underneath that, we don't know all the causes - although much can be postulated. Early teen betrayal by a military man who was a pedophile preying on young boys (who knows what insidious damage that did) - but I'm his spouse with a similar CSA history. I think because of that - I don't let him lean on that as an excuse to behave in screwed up ways about sex. I keep as much out in the open as possible - because the more he does stuff in secret, the more it feeds those old demons of keeping sexual abuse secrets. I know what that looks like and I won't let him keep repeating those old tapes. I'm also not going to coddle him about it. He's not a helpless, betrayed child anymore and neither am I. We both had these experiences - and we had different reactions. His was to create a fantasy man who was a hero every body loves with dirty secrets of conquering beautiful women with no effort. 

My CSA caused me to be the opposite - a crusader for exposing the truth. In a way, he hates me. The demon in him comes out sometimes and I can see the venomous hate he has for me exposing the truth, insisting on honesty. It's like pulling a rock off a snake and watching it slither and hiss. 

The pain of having someone you came to love and trust betray you in such an insidious way creates so many layers of damage, the average person really can't handle a CSA survivor. Our marriage in some ways has been a battleground that has been mostly about trying to defeat our own demons together without destroying each other in the process. I think we both have deep sympathy/empathy for the other but there's a lot of damage we've had to mitigate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Once had a therapist recognized that my husband is what's called an "underfunctioner" whereas I'm a high-functioner....


Questions...

When you buy gifts for each other, is there one person in the relationship that almost never enjoys getting a good gift because no one knows what to get for that person? 

If you and your husband each got a gift card for say $100 to spend on yourselves, who would need the most time to determine what to buy? Would one or both of you feel happier spending the money on the other? 

You don't have to answer these if you don't want. What I am getting at is if someone is difficult to please with buying a gift, that person is generally difficult to please sexually. The same can be true when buying a gift for yourself. If you take a long time to choose, you are likely someone that struggles to know what you want sexually. The desire to spend money on each other represents a desire to try and please the other, even though it may be very frustrating determine how to spend the money in a way that accomplishes this. 

That may make for a good conversation for you and your husband to explore. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> It boiled down to this: this has been going on for him *since I met him back in '88/'89.* It's his M.O. So, after all the therapy, the promises, the me standing on my head doing everything well beyond what probably most wives would do - and still him hiding and sneaking around with his lying and b.s., I'm done.


Wow, that’s a long time, it had to be very tiring, and now very difficult. I got nothing, just wishing you well.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Questions...
> 
> When you buy gifts for each other, is there one person in the relationship that almost never enjoys getting a good gift because no one knows what to get for that person?
> 
> ...


Gift - I'm impossible to buy for. I know what I want and I buy my own stuff. People have to ask me what I want so I'll tell them exactly what to get.

He's easier to please, happy with anything. He can find something he likes pretty easily and usually spends over the amount.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> Wow, that’s a long time, it had to be very tiring, and now very difficult. I got nothing, just wishing you well.


Yeah, that's what I said. This all came out about 4 years ago - too far into our relationship for me to walk away. I was ready to walk away nonetheless, found someone else and he freaked out and lost and he swore to a high dollar, highly skilled marriage therapist that he would do the work on himself. He did for a few months, then a couple of years ago, reverted again to the old ways again.

I really am done. My heart is done. 

But I'm not mean. We've been close in a lot of ways, we're very entangled with our lives, our history, our property, possessions, etc.
I just am not going to do the faithful thing any more. I decided if I see a guy who looks interesting to look at - I'm going to look at him. I'm going to enjoy myself looking at men in a way I've not done for a long time.

I've lived by the philosophy that I'll love one man for 10 years or I'll love 10 men, one man a year for 10 years. But I'm not going to live my life without love - and lovin.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> I am trying to think of something I HAVEN'T tried. Yes, I've done the pretend in the dark that I'm a different woman.
> 
> This particular woman he's been hot for since junior high and has seen her at every reunion. She's married, lives a good life with her handsome husband she's been married to since high school and totally oblivious to what my husband fantasizes.
> 
> ...


Bless you. 
I'm always astonished when guys don't seem to know when they've got a rare and precious gem in the palm of their hands.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> *Gift - I'm impossible to buy for.* I know what I want and I buy my own stuff. People have to ask me what I want so I'll tell them exactly what to get.
> 
> He's easier to please, happy with anything. He can find something he likes pretty easily and usually spends over the amount.


OK, now imagine that is the other way around? Imagine your husband is impossible to buy a gift for and that he pretty much just goes out and buys his own stuff, or has to tell people exactly what to get for him.

How would that make you feel when trying to buy him a gift? Would that give you anxiety, especially if you wanted to _surprise_ him with something? Would you almost give up and just not buy him a gift?

Now imagine if you could actually be happy with any gift and easy to please? He could get you anything and you would be happy with it. 

Seriously, this would be a fun conversation to have with your husband. It almost directly relates to sexuality. Not exactly, but pretty darn close.

On a side note, I had an argument a long time ago with my wife that if she did not want to be with me sexually that often that she should at least buy me some novelties that I could enjoy in the time she needed her personal space. I went online and gave her examples of exactly what I wanted and told her to pick me one out as a gift. I was serious and told her that it would help me feel cared for during my time alone. She got so freaking upset with me!! To this day I can not bring that conversation back up and discuss it, not even to make fun of how needy and problematic I was for doing that. These days if I want something of that nature, I'll just buy it and inform her about it. Generally I try to buy something that we can both share in a playful way. I'll share my ideas on why I bought something as well as ask her if she is willing to try a little something new. Generally speaking that works. She just tells me to use my common sense and not get or try anything too stupid. Over the years I did manage to find her something she REALLY likes. But it did involve a lot of trial and error for me to just not get my feelings hurt for the things that she objected to. 

_...Does it come preassembled as a surprise and is there free delivery..._

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> OK, now imagine that is the other way around? Imagine your husband is impossible to buy a gift for and that he pretty much just goes out and buys his own stuff, or has to tell people exactly what to get for him.
> 
> How would that make you feel when trying to buy him a gift? Would that give you anxiety, especially if you wanted to _surprise_ him with something? Would you almost give up and just not buy him a gift?
> 
> ...


Yes, I see the correlation and it's rather brilliant, actually.

I think sometimes when you have a really intelligent partner (and the two of you sound like you are both high IQ), it can be a bit of a battle of the wits. I see you have a very dry sense of humor - and frankly, not everyone gets how funny dry humor is because it's also pretty biting. But that's comedy for you.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Yes, I see the correlation and it's rather brilliant, actually.
> 
> I think sometimes when you have a really intelligent partner (and the two of you sound like you are both high IQ), it can be a bit of a battle of the wits. I see you have a very dry sense of humor - and frankly, not everyone gets how funny dry humor is because it's also pretty biting. But that's comedy for you.


I sometimes have my biggest revelations about relationships trying to imagine my scenario from an opposite point of view. So if you were to have the same fantasies as your husband this means you are a Mrs. Walter Mitty. You secretly envision this kind and random man that just really wants to be with you. It requires no effort and all you have to do is simply allow it to happen. Anything seem familiar about that?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I sometimes have my biggest revelations about relationships trying to imagine my scenario from an opposite point of view. So if you were to have the same fantasies as your husband this means you are a Mrs. Walter Mitty. You secretly envision this kind and random man that just really wants to be with you. It requires no effort and all you have to do is simply allow it to happen. Anything seem familiar about that?


Are you proposing this as an exercise in understanding my husband's viewpoint? Sorry if that sounds like I'm stating the obvious - but that would be me doing the total opposite of what I would actually do.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

happiness27 said:


> Are you proposing this as an exercise in understanding my husband's viewpoint? Sorry if that sounds like I'm stating the obvious - but that would be me doing the total opposite of what I would actually do.


Yes, but here is what I find as a rather helpful way to go about it... You say that you feel like you have tried everything. Go through your mind and imagine your husband trying those things on you, and in particular look for reasons that those things may not work with you.

Now not to threadjack we must get back to the OP (as not to get banned), so getting back to my issues in my marriage and my own wife's frustrations... My wife says my behaviors with regards to our sexual intimacy are that of someone that feels entitled. I imagine she feels the same when it comes to my own self pleasure. She probably feels that I do it out of entitlement, and she is right!

So now I try to imagine what life would be like if she felt entitled in those ways and in particular if that would create problems with resentment from me. Part of me thinks that would be a good thing for her, but thinking through some past relationships where partners did feel that way... well it made me feel threatened. And by that it made me feel as though I could not offer that person what she needed to be happy. I remember feeling inadequate and fearing that I would not be wanted or needed in that relationship. Flipping back around to me again, my wife's main complaint in our marriage is that I make her feel inadequate. So that is a bit of a revelation for me.

So yes, that is a good exercise!

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...an update on this thread.

I have continued to dig into the topic of self pleasure with my wife. In doing so I have been a completely open book about my own self pleasure by trying to have a positive (non defensive) conversation about it. I have primarily focused on sharing things that I have learned about myself sexually that I know my wife will benefit from knowing. In my case I do enjoy fantasizing about my own wife, and for the first time I think she enjoyed hearing me tell her those things. A few weeks into this now and her confidence has improved and anxiety in general has calmed. While this is a conversation that now goes back years, I think she finally sees that my self pleasure is not something that takes away but instead as something that compliments our relationship. 

She has also shared some more information regarding her own experiences toward self pleasure. It is not that she is strongly opposed to it, but she finds it to be a very lonely and a right-to-the-point experience (so much so that there is very little pleasure and why bother). She complimented me and said that she does not have the mental will power to do things to herself that I am able to do to her (which is mostly about playfully forcing her to take her time and not be in a hurry). Because she enjoys that so much, that has tuned her style into returning the favor. She now enjoys the most taking me into places that I do not have the willpower to do on my own. 

So in that sense, her opening up about her own self pleasure and what she finds frustrating about it... well that turns out to be a key to unlocking some serious fireworks when we come together (pun intended) as a team. 

For the first time in my marriage, the topic of what we have each learned through our own self pleasure seems to be at the core of what is now pushing us forwards. Being completely open enough to share ourselves in that way with one another was not easy as historically it has been a conversation filled with complaints, anxiety, accusations and all sorts of negative things. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

So wonderful to hear this. Congratulations. Years of effort finally bearing fruit. Kudos!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> So wonderful to hear this. Congratulations. Years of effort finally bearing fruit. Kudos!


Thanks! I have all my javascript turned off as years ago this site would do odd things to my browser, like sent me to a new scam website that would crash my PC and start trying to download a Flash Player update. Otherwise I would like a lot more. 

I look at my join date, and add a couple of years to that (because I started struggling before finding TAM). In that amount of time most marriages begin and fail. 

Hope your marriage is coming along as well. I think a lot of positive things happen in your marriage that you don't bother to report. If there is one thing I have learned on TAM is that the moment you brag, everything in your life turns to sh** because you let yourself enjoy the moment too much!!!

So somewhere around the corner I am probably in for a world of hurt. Hopefully it is an experience that lets me continue working on being a better person. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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