# The Effects of Emasculation



## Viseral

More and more, western men are suffering from the effects of emasculation. This is bad for both men and women. Masculinity is no longer being valued by society, yet women are not attracted to feminine men. 

We see many problems associated with this on TAM, the "nice guy" syndrome being one; a man who isn't a strong enough to enforce healthy boundaries, and is therefore not respected by women and they lose attraction. 

As a topic of discussion, check out this video on the effects of emasculation and provide your comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OdQGbVNa4&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Faithful Wife

I've said it before, it would be nice if men could take responsibility for their own choices and mistakes instead of blaming everything on their mommies, their teachers, and their girlfriends.

This video was long and boring and was apparently made by men specifically to make fun of other men, calling them Mangina, etc.

Really?

Does anyone think it is manly to spend so much time crying about how their single mommies ruined their lives?

And for the record...no, I don't want to f*ck a Mangina, either. But I don't blame this on his mommy, I blame it on his tendancy to wear a feather boa and a skirt.


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## that_girl

I agree with this being a problem in Western society.

HOWEVER, if men want to be 'men'...then they need to be men and create their own boundaries and KEEP THOSE BOUNDARIES.

You are only treated the way you allow people to treat you.


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## Lon

Faithful Wife said:


> I've said it before, it would be nice if men could take responsibility for their own choices and mistakes instead of blaming everything on their mommies, their teachers, and their girlfriends.
> 
> This video was long and boring and was apparently made by men specifically to make fun of other men, calling them Mangina, etc.
> 
> Really?
> 
> Does anyone think it is manly to spend so much time crying about how their single mommies ruined their lives?
> 
> And for the record...no, I don't want to f*ck a Mangina, either. But I don't blame this on his mommy, I blame it on his tendancy to wear a feather boa and a skirt.


I think the video is far off base, sure maybe has found some clips of less than raw masculine guys... I don't think women are to blame, if there were an emasculating phenomenon at work, it's not the feminists to blame, it's the lack of masculinism. Instead of men being role models for our sons on how to take responsibility in life they've substituted the wide world of sports and left boys to figure it out on there own, a few manage the survival of the fittest, many stumble along trying to find something to be passionate about, whereas others manage to convince themselves they are the fittest by pointing out and picking on the weakest. The most respectable, masculine guys I know all had some kind of male mentor in life.


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## Entropy3000

Lon said:


> I think the video is far off base, sure maybe has found some clips of less than raw masculine guys... I don't think women are to blame, if there were an emasculating phenomenon at work, it's not the feminists to blame, it's the lack of masculinism. Instead of men being role models for our sons on how to take responsibility in life they've substituted the wide world of sports and left boys to figure it out on there own, a few manage the survival of the fittest, many stumble along trying to find something to be passionate about, whereas others manage to convince themselves they are the fittest by pointing out and picking on the weakest. *The most respectable, masculine guys I know all had some kind of male mentor in life*.


Lon,

This is missing for most males. For a very long time for a lot of reasons. Unfortunately here we have to try and help guys after the fact. After they have been beaten down. It can't be just plastic water bottles.

BUT this is no excuse for the social conditioning that is rampant in Western society. This is not just an individual guy thing. I do think it starts there. But things have swung to a point where men need to stop being ok with this.

So men need to have better boundaries. Absolutely. But who is bringing up those abusive women? Entitled women? This is a Yin and Yang thing.

To be sure there are abusive men and the women they prey on as well. Too many groups wanting to get back at some other group for abusing them in some other lifetime. So I am blaming society for this. All any of us can do is refuse to accept this as right.

Unfortunately the videos do represent the kind of crap on many reality TV shows. I ahve no idea the actual impact of young folks wathcing this. I would think it adds to socail conditioning but I hope not so much.

I am not even going to debate this folks. You all go ahead. I am just not going to put up with it where I see it. And I will advise men and women to have good boundaries.


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## PreRaphaelite

The absence of fathers from the home is not a good thing.

If there's one thing a father can teach you, it's to be virtuous no matter what the situation and work toward that end. Masculinity means developing your character and your individuality through your actions and your choices. When others need you to do so, you can stand up.

Unfortunately many fathers aren't good at teaching that anymore. There's far too much crap in society now, and emasculation by (certain kinds of) feminism is just one part of it.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: The Effects of Emasculation*



coffee4me said:


> Interesting video. I'm a single mom and I'm raising a very masculine male and he is a good man. So of course I disagree with all the single mom blaming because I see the same results in some families with two parents. However, I do see a shift in our society and it is confusing for young men.
> 
> I read this exerpt from the book Raising Cain:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many books now that blame the "rigid ideals or stereotypes of manhood" Thats the part where I get hung up.
> 
> Take crying-- They say that because we are ingrained in some rigid ideal we tell boys not cry to control themselves and they then keep in all their emotions and become unexpressive, angry men.
> 
> I don't think that teaching a boy emotional control results in him being unexpressive. It is possible to teach a boy emotional control and to express his emotion in more suitable manner or at a more appropriate time.
> 
> I'm proud of my son for being strong and controlling his emotions during the most emotional situations. That does not mean that he doesn't express those emotions at all he just expresses them at a different more private time and he chooses to only let those very
> close to him see his true emotions.
> 
> I get confused when I read these books or watch a video like the one above and then look at the next generation of men. Seems we blame the "rigid ideals of manhood" and we miss the "rigid ideals of manhood" quite confusing :scratchhead:


I disagree, it's not about repressing emotions at all, in fact the emotional side seems like the only thing that us being encouraged, it's the physicality and acts of force that seem to be shunned by modern society, but I think it inevitably has to come out, which it does in the form of bloodlust and violence against those who can't defend themselves.

We need to nurture the emotional aspects of masculinity (as modern society is steadfastly doing) but at the same time nurture the physical by accepting and appreciating exercises in strength and force. The solution to schoolyard bullying isn't by disarming the bully, but empowering the victims. We all need to exercise our power in order to realize it, instead of being ashamed of it.


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## hookares

A man has nobody to blame but himself if he chooses to be anybody's doormat. It would be ideal if we could all learn this at an early age, but each situation is different and we learn at different rates.
It would be ludicrous to suggest that the way a person is brought up doesn't eventually reflect on how they will interact with others.
BUT, once a person becomes an adult, it's is clearly on him or her how he or she permits others to treat them.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: The Effects of Emasculation*



hookares said:


> A man has nobody to blame but himself if he chooses to be anybody's doormat. It would be ideal if we could all learn this at an early age, but each situation is different and we learn at different rates.
> It would be ludicrous to suggest that the way a person is brought up doesn't eventually reflect on how they will interact with others.
> BUT, once a person becomes an adult, it's is clearly on him or her how he or she permits others to treat them.


Yes, but the argument is that more and more men are doormats, and from a sociological perspective, why?


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## hookares

Lon said:


> Yes, but the argument is that more and more men are doormats, and from a sociological perspective, why?


Well try this.
If a man verbally chastises his wife or SO for her actions, the DR. Phil's of this world will brand him an abuser.
If he strikes her to get her off of him while she is sticking a butcher knife in his back, Phil will tell him he should have waited until she cut all the away around to the front before even complaining.
Many men are fearful of how society will view their actions so they just "go along to get along".
None of the above any longer applies to ME.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: The Effects of Emasculation*



hookares said:


> Well try this.
> If a man verbally chastises his wife or SO for her actions, the DR. Phil's of this world will brand him an abuser.
> If he strikes her to get her off of him while she is sticking a butcher knife in his back, Phil will tell him he should have waited until she cut all the away around to the front before even complaining.
> Many men are fearful of how society will view their actions so they just "go along to get along".
> None of the above any longer applies to ME.


so then it's the dr phil's and society that are to blame? Even though each man is ultimately responsible for himself?

I personally don't blame dr phil entirely, the feminists are only half of the equation.


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## WorkingOnMe

Faithful Wife said:


> I've said it before, it would be nice if men could take responsibility for their own choices and mistakes instead of blaming everything on their mommies, their teachers, and their girlfriends.


One of the biggest mistakes men make is listening to what women "say" they want and trying to act that way. If women knew what they wanted and could articulate it, there wouldn't be a problem. Someone else said it first, but I like to repeat it....that you don't take hunting tips from a deer, you take hunting tips from successful hunters. That always seems to upset the ladies, I guess because they're convinced that they know what turns them on. But the evidence shows otherwise.


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## stevehowefan

I know some men around my way who wear tight pants, tight shirts, Tom shoes (I just found out what those were, by the way), put hairspray in their hair, and stuff like that. Not manly in any sense. I think it's a culmination of generations of inuring the male population through various media outlets (movies, songs, commercials), and lack of strong manly influence in men's lives. There's a car commercial out there, can't remember the name of the car, where a dad is teaching his son how to throw a ball. Needless to say, the dad can't throw it correctly either. It comes out looking worse than a "girl" throwing a ball. (I put that in quotations as a way to say that not all girls throw like "girls.") Movies make a male look incompetent, petulant, and girly. I don't watch many movies admittedly, and I don't remember them much afterwards, but it seems the ones I have seen involved a man needing to be rescued from something by a woman. There are not many alpha male movies. Don't get me wrong, I don't live my life based on what society wants but some men do. 

Those same girly-men I talked about earlier wouldn't know how to use a hammer, wouldn't use one if they could because it could make them dirty, change a tire, cut grass, clean a fish or rabbit, or anything. They will cower in a fight. They won't stand for anything in a face-to-face confrontation. They're the type of men who will "like" a Facebook page, and they consider that fighting for what they believe in. 

I don't blame women for a man's loss of sack. Men, if you're a father, raise your son to be a man, to defend himself and stand for what he believes. Teach him to throw a damn ball, correctly. Respect your wives. Love your family. We are the cornerstone of the family.


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## Ikaika

It may be where I live or that I just don't see it, but I certainly don't see emasculation, at least not where I live. No doubt, I am more aligned with my cultural roots than the typical Americana lifestyle. Imua. 

I should say that I don't watch cable TV, so if this is where it is being portrayed, I definitely am missing it.


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## BaxJanson

I think the missing element is discipline. Self-discipline. It's not taught, it's not encouraged, and it's not developed. Setting boundaries requires discipline. Controlling your emotions without snuffing them out requires discipline. Most 'manly' hobbies require vast amounts of discipline - time, focus, endurance, knowledge, fortitude...

But discipline means sometimes having to say no. And people don't like to be told no. So if we get rid of all the discipline, then no one has any reasons to say no.


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## Faithful Wife

WOE said: "One of the biggest mistakes men make is listening to what women "say" they want and trying to act that way. If women knew what they wanted and could articulate it, there wouldn't be a problem. Someone else said it first, but I like to repeat it....that you don't take hunting tips from a deer, you take hunting tips from successful hunters. That always seems to upset the ladies, I guess because they're convinced that they know what turns them on. But the evidence shows otherwise."



So...do you know nothing of my story, then? Yet you assume, I guess because I'm female, that I know nothing of what you are talking about?

Do any of the guys around here think any woman is different than the other? Or are we all like your wives?

*Listen up: I need a man that can f*ck my brains out. He needs to be tall and fit, ie: BIG biceps, ok? He needs to be autonomous and have his own life and interests. He needs to take care of his life, his property, his career, and ME, his wife. He needs to know how to properly throw me down, pull my hair, and make me scream. He needs to be in control of his life, his emotions, and his sexuality. No whiny man-babies, please.*

Still think that being a female prevents me from knowing what I want?

I invite you to point out to me any inconsistency in what I say I want and what I really want. I do NOT want a man who helicopters around me trying to please me.


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## WorkingOnMe

Sure, you're an exception. But I wasn't directly talking about you. The vast majority of women send men on a wild goose chase. I would think you'd be the first to admit that FW.


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## Faithful Wife

Half or more of all marriages end in divorce. Why try to point blame? It is all of us. People are misguided and not self-aware enough in many cases.

What some of you guys are trying to paint as "women sending men on wild goose chases" are in SOME cases simply mis-matched couples. 

I don't think that women, any more than men, are trying to mess up their own marriages. 

I'm not the exception you think I am. I know many women who know exactly what they want. Some of them find it, some do not.

Similarly, I know many men who have no clue what they want, yet will claim that they do.

None of this is "someone's fault". Why such a drive to find fault? Why not just each of us figure out our own sheet but stop pointing fingers at the opposite sex in the meantime?


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## WorkingOnMe

It's far more common for a woman to say to her husband that the reason she's not interested in a sexual relationship is because he hasn't jumped through XYZ hoops. So he jumps through them, only to find out that it made no difference. Sure it happens the other way around, but it's much less common.

And in any case, this thread is about emasculation. I definitely see jumping through those hoops rather than being true to yourself as a form of emasculation and it makes me think that doing what she says she wants is a turn off in and of itself regardless of what it is. And yes, I recognize that some husbands do the same thing. Telling their wives that if they do XYZ then they'll be attracted to them again even when they don't really know or won't admit why the attraction is gone.


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## Faithful Wife

What are you basing your "it is common" findings on? This place? MMSL? Are you not aware there are hundreds of other websites where women very clearly are asking their husbands for hot sex, but the husbands don't seem to understand it? That there are thousands of LD husbands out there with wives who are at their wits end?

If you can, try to see life as if it isn't all just a reflection of your own story. Of course you can find evidence that there are other women like your wife out there (I'm assuming that you have those issues with her, that is why you are so focused on them). But you can just as easily find evidence that there are men out there following a similar pattern that leads to divorce.

Part of what I'm saying is due to my own previous experience. When I was newly separated and divorcing, of course I searched all over to find evidence to support the reasons why I was getting divorced. What this boiled down to was, I wanted to find out why it was my ex-husband's fault. Yes, I did find that evidence.

But further reading and understanding helped me see that MY one type of experience was only ONE type of experience and there were hundreds of OTHER patterns of experience. When you get caught up in feeling that YOUR one pattern of experience is the reason that YOU can't get where you want in life...then you have doomed your own understanding and you will repeat that pattern until you get over yourself and realize that most people simply want to be loved and have sex. Yes, it is THAT EASY.


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## Topical storm

Viseral said:


> More and more, western men are suffering from the effects of emasculation. This is bad for both men and women. Masculinity is no longer being valued by society, yet women are not attracted to feminine men.
> 
> We see many problems associated with this on TAM, the "nice guy" syndrome being one; a man who isn't a strong enough to enforce healthy boundaries, and is therefore not respected by women and they lose attraction.
> 
> As a topic of discussion, check out this video on the effects of emasculation and provide your comments.
> 
> The Effects of Emasculation, Part I - YouTube


Western culture has gotten softer. The courts cater to women, the laws are in favor of mothers. Too many kids have no fathers or male figures in their life. Sports are getting softer. Masculine jobs have all but disappeared and pink jobs are on the rise and will be the biggest job market in the future. Kids are dressing more colorful. Women have more financial influence and power, so large companies are marketing toward women which recreates a cultural shift. This creates the nice young boy/aggressive young girl dynamic, and the family structure is diluted slowly over time. Thus you have more 40 yr old women getting rid of the nice guys or stepping out of their marriages because their nice guy husband is just not bringing the john wayne/chuck norris attitude enthusiam into the bedroom. The women gets older she becomes more consersative and traditional over time and would like the man to be more masculine. But the men were never taught and thus it becomes an imbalance, causing him to wilt and in many cases the bonds of marriage disolving.


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## azteca1986

Topical storm said:


> Too many kids have no fathers or male figures in their life.


Are women to blame for this too?



> Kids are dressing more colorful.


THE HORROR!!!


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## Deejo

Misread the vibe


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## Deejo

Reopened the thread. 

Such discussions have taken place in the past; respectfully.

This particular topic doesn't require women to be the 'enemy'.

It's a bad model, and patently incorrect.

It requires men to recognize where they went off the rails and correct their behavior ... for their benefit, and the benefit of their partners and those they interact with.

There is plenty of worthwhile content to discuss in that regard. Feminism, or blaming women really doesn't, and shouldn't be part of the discussion at all.

Own your sh!t. Do something about it. Be better.

I liked the vid. Watched both parts. The dudes from manhood101 got themselves banned from here ... yes they were on TAM ... pretty quickly. 

The video pukes all over the 'Dear Woman' dudes ... as of course we did here too. But ... their vid basically falls into the same bucket, just at the other end of the spectrum.

So, if we can all NOT be manginas and feminazi's and instead have some evolved and pleasant social discourse, then the thread can carry on and enlighten. 

If not, it shall be snuffed out with extreme prejudice. Thank you.


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## PreRaphaelite

Faithful Wife said:


> WOE said: "One of the biggest mistakes men make is listening to what women "say" they want and trying to act that way. If women knew what they wanted and could articulate it, there wouldn't be a problem. Someone else said it first, but I like to repeat it....that you don't take hunting tips from a deer, you take hunting tips from successful hunters. That always seems to upset the ladies, I guess because they're convinced that they know what turns them on. But the evidence shows otherwise."
> 
> 
> 
> So...do you know nothing of my story, then? Yet you assume, I guess because I'm female, that I know nothing of what you are talking about?
> 
> Do any of the guys around here think any woman is different than the other? Or are we all like your wives?
> 
> *Listen up: I need a man that can f*ck my brains out. He needs to be tall and fit, ie: BIG biceps, ok? He needs to be autonomous and have his own life and interests. He needs to take care of his life, his property, his career, and ME, his wife. He needs to know how to properly throw me down, pull my hair, and make me scream. He needs to be in control of his life, his emotions, and his sexuality. No whiny man-babies, please.*
> 
> Still think that being a female prevents me from knowing what I want?
> 
> I invite you to point out to me any inconsistency in what I say I want and what I really want. I do NOT want a man who helicopters around me trying to please me.


I'm trying to figure out whether you're being serious or not about what you want in a man. :scratchhead:


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## that_girl

I know what I want and what I don't want.

I treated my husband like the man I thought he was.

He was the one who said he still feels like a child. I listened to that. I don't want to be married to a lying, cheating child. Omg. No.

Not my fault he feels that way. I tried to build him up and respected the crap out of him. Until now.


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## EleGirl

hookares said:


> Well try this.
> If a man verbally chastises his wife or SO for her actions


You are OK with a woman "verbally chastising" her husband?


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## EleGirl

Deejo said:


> Reopened the thread.
> 
> Such discussions have taken place in the past; respectfully.
> 
> This particular topic doesn't require women to be the 'enemy'.
> 
> It's a bad model, and patently incorrect.
> 
> It requires men to recognize where they went off the rails and correct their behavior ... for their benefit, and the benefit of their partners and those they interact with.
> 
> There is plenty of worthwhile content to discuss in that regard. Feminism, or blaming women really doesn't, and shouldn't be part of the discussion at all.
> 
> Own your sh!t. Do something about it. Be better.
> 
> I liked the vid. Watched both parts. The dudes from manhood101 got themselves banned from here ... yes they were on TAM ... pretty quickly.
> 
> The video pukes all over the 'Dear Woman' dudes ... as of course we did here too. But ... their vid basically falls into the same bucket, just at the other end of the spectrum.
> 
> So, if we can all NOT be manginas and feminazi's and instead have some evolved and pleasant social discourse, then the thread can carry on and enlighten.
> 
> If not, it shall be snuffed out with extreme prejudice. Thank you.


:iagree: 

I had to quote this post because it's right on. Own your (proverbial "you") own stuff. Take responsibility for yourself.. whether you are a man or a woman. If you go around blaming every one for how you are, that means that YOU gave up your own power.


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## Cee Paul

Raised by two parents and by a dad who was a tough military man growing up who could kick your butt if you needed it, but he also has a heart of gold and was always respectful to my mother and to women in general. I am also respectful to most people in general, but if I feel that I am being disrespected by anyone(including my wife)I will ask for it to stop and if not........all hell will break loose.


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## Broken at 20

So many interesting things brought up here. 

I find this interesting though, posters brought up the lack of fathers and male role models in kid's lives. 

Now, I won't say feminism is the reason, or that men are just irresponsible, but I do feel there lies some blame with society. 

A woman can go to a sperm bank, get pregnant, and have herself a baby. So that leaves the man out of the loop almost entirely. He is just there to provide sperm. 
So father = disposable 

And family courts tend to agree with this. 
Because I don't see very many single fathers running around with kids. I've seen several single mothers running around with their kids, but not the other way around. 
But there could also be reasons like, the mothers felt more attached while the father was just looking for some easy tail and had an 'oops' situation. Happened to one of my coworkers. 


And the men not being masculine enough, totally see that. 

Someone posted something about bullying. Do we just chastise the bully, or empower the victim? 
Now, I don't know how it was back in the day, but I know in today's schools, bullying isn't tolerated. Nor is fighting back. 
I remember in elementary school, a kid was pants in the cafeteria by another kid. The kid who was pants lost it, and chased the kid who pants him around, and tackled him. Both got in trouble with I think a suspension of some sort.

So...what is the victim's option at that point? To cry and go to a teacher and say "I got my pats pulled down by so-an-so." 
And have the teacher give so-and-so a talking to?

Or another more recent story. My freshmen year in high school, my locker was next to the two biggest D-bags I could think of. And one they tried to stuff me in my locker. Locker 666...never going to forget that. But I kicked one of them in the groin, and the other in the shin, because what else was I going to do?
I got a 3-day ISS for it. They got the same punishment I did. 
I was upset though, because what could I do? Let them stuff me in, then tell a teacher about it after I showed up to class late? 

To me, seems like we try to reign in guy's testosterone way too much. 
Is it right that a kid had his pants pulled down in school during lunch? NO! But are we to tell him he can't do anything about it, but to let someone else handle it? 
Or should I let myself get stuffed in a locker, and tell myself the administration will take care of the jerks who did it? 


I understand we shouldn't allow bullying. But it will always exist. 
But we don't allow boys to learn to defend themselves. 
I defended myself, and got a 3-day ISS for it. 

When boys show their masculine side, they are chastised for it. They are told to be nice, walk away or turn the other cheek to bullies, share their feelings, and be more sensitive. Is it any wonder that they are growing up into the stereotypical nice guys we get today?


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## Tall Average Guy

Broken at 20 said:


> I understand we shouldn't allow bullying. But it will always exist.
> But we don't allow boys to learn to defend themselves.
> I defended myself, and got a 3-day ISS for it.


My son has had some minor issues with a bully. Nothing real physical yet, but still some issues. I have made it crystal clear that I will support him 100% if he needs to physically defend himself. Yes, it generally needs to be proportional, but he will never get in trouble for doing that, and I will fight the school system on his behalf.


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## Faithful Wife

Pre said: "I'm trying to figure out whether you're being serious or not about what you want in a man."

Yes, I was being serious. I was describing my husband.


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## Lon

Broken, I tend to agree with you, if you shun standing up to bullies all you are left with is bullies and those who are afraid of them. And by "reprimanding" the bullying, rather than the bullyer, we end up creating more cunning bullies.

What we seem to value in "real men" is the courage to stand up to those who do wrong, but how will they ever develop those skills if we take away the chance?

I was a bit of a bully victim, but I was never afraid of being physically hurt, my brother and I would fist fight every day.. I was just afraid of negative attention didn't want to be thought of as an antagonist, and I certainly never honed any courageous type of attributes.


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## Lyris

I know exactly what I want. I want a man who makes me laugh, helps me when I need it, doesn't lie, loves our girls as much as I do and - to quote Dolly - pulls my hair and slaps my arse.

I got it too. Pays to know what you want.


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## RandomDude

I found western/eastern sedentary societies rather civilised, to be "gentlemanly", to be courteous to the ladies. In my culture men are rather more... forward by tradition. Our women are also 'tougher' in a sense as a result to handle us. Effeminate men are often disowned, and struggle with acceptance into the "cult" of being one of our people.

It can be rather extreme at times though. Personally I take the strengths of both worlds and use it for my own benefit. As for the majority of men in western society however, they seem to be fine in my opinion, the ones who tend to lack masculinity I found just lacked appropriate role models that they can relate to.


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## See_Listen_Love

Viseral said:


> More and more, western men are suffering from the effects of emasculation. This is bad for both men and women. Masculinity is no longer being valued by society, yet women are not attracted to feminine men.
> 
> We see many problems associated with this on TAM, the "nice guy" syndrome being one; a man who isn't a strong enough to enforce healthy boundaries, and is therefore not respected by women and they lose attraction.
> 
> As a topic of discussion, check out this video on the effects of emasculation and provide your comments.
> 
> The Effects of Emasculation, Part I - YouTube



It is rather funny, how feminist reactions in this thread _against_ this development at the same time are evidence of that which they want to deny...



The modern boy is educated to be a girl. 

And then the women want a macho hairpuller??

:rofl:


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## Lyris

Wanted it. Got it. And I'm a feminist too.


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## RandomDude

Ok, just clicked on that video, then I saw the website, "manhood academy", rather controversial that one. Some men DO need to grow some balls, but personally they are taking it the wrong way in my opinion. There will always be the extremists, I consider this group amongst them.



> I understand we shouldn't allow bullying. But it will always exist.
> But we don't allow boys to learn to defend themselves.
> I defended myself, and got a 3-day ISS for it.
> 
> When boys show their masculine side, they are chastised for it. They are told to be nice, walk away or turn the other cheek to bullies, share their feelings, and be more sensitive. Is it any wonder that they are growing up into the stereotypical nice guys we get today?


If I ever had a son, I would encourage him to fight, and even if he gets suspended, I'll get him something as a reward for standing up for himself. Hell I might even be like the dad in what was that movie... "King Arthur" thats right

"Have you been fighting?"
"Yes dad!"
"Have you been winning!"
"Yes dad!"
"That's my boy!"

Lol, but sorry guess I just don't want to raise a s-ssy. My daughter understands authority and has not encountered bullying thus far, but I doubt I would chastise her if she was violent within reason. My STBX however, definitely would go off her nut.


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## Faithful Wife

"The modern boy is educated to be a girl. 

And then the women want a macho hairpuller??"



I guess all those very few men who weren't educated to be girls got snapped up by us women who want real macho hairpullers.

Yay, me!

Before I came here, I had no idea that so many men blame women for their own mistakes in life.

My husband has never once made any statement about anyone in his life being to blame for anything he has done. He doesn't have this deep fear and hatred of women that is obvious in the makers of that video. He doesn't listen to feminist nor anti-feminist sides of anything. I am not sure he is even aware that so many men are still hung up on blaming their mommies for everything. He doesn't hang around with men who would talk about stuff like that and doesn't read stuff like this.

He does though, know how to do a proper sexual throw down. And he doesn't ask my permission first.


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## Northern Monkey

The premise is at core, spot on.

Society does bombard us with messages to the effect it is bad to be masculine. That we need to be in touch with our feminine side not as well, but instead. 

That we need to jump through hoops and worship the ground she walks on while handing over control to her. That when the going gets tough, the tough get grovelling.

I agree totally with all that being the message we receive.

I can also quite easily point my finger at who is to blame. It's men like me that swallowed the BS hook line and sinker.

When we should have been manning the F up, we were trying to be women. If women didn't want a man, they'd be with a woman. Some do that, but if they are with you and you are a man.. err wtf are you doing being a woman.

Blaming women or whoever is pointless and self defeating.

All that brainwashing is there but the only person that can rewrite the programming is yourself. Own your own stuff and stop the blameshifting bs.


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## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> "The modern boy is educated to be a girl.
> 
> And then the women want a macho hairpuller??"
> 
> 
> 
> I guess all those very few men who weren't educated to be girls got snapped up by us women who want real macho hairpullers.
> 
> Yay, me!
> 
> Before I came here, I had no idea that so many men blame women for their own mistakes in life.
> 
> My husband has never once made any statement about anyone in his life being to blame for anything he has done. He doesn't have this deep fear and hatred of women that is obvious in the makers of that video. He doesn't listen to feminist nor anti-feminist sides of anything. I am not sure he is even aware that so many men are still hung up on blaming their mommies for everything. He doesn't hang around with men who would talk about stuff like that and doesn't read stuff like this.
> 
> He does though, know how to do a proper sexual throw down. And he doesn't ask my permission first.


I don't think you have it quite right, but I'd rather approach it from a different angle.
I don't blame women for anything.
Here's the thing ... what is 'masculine' gets mighty convoluted quickly.
Have a close friend whose dad was a man's man by anybody's measure. Big guy. Worked very hard. Played harder. Everyone respected him. He also drank too much. Had multiple affairs while his wife remained steadfast, and when he got drunk, beat the sh!t out of his wife and kids, who were both girls.

Nobody should want to emulate that behavior.

I also know guys that love their wives dearly ... despite their wives showing nothing but disdain for them. They believe if they try a little harder, be a little sweeter and nicer that she will love, respect and want to have sex with him. The wives are entitled, have no respect let alone feelings of affection or desire for intimacy from their partners. People are MUCH more tolerant of that model than the previous one I outlined. Often in these cases, blame and scorn is heaped on the husband; not the wife. Hell you can see this dynamic on the boards over, and over, and over again.

Nobody should want to emulate this behavior either.

And as some of these guys go looking for answers, they inevitably victim puke all over the place about the woman in their life. But it's just that ... puking. Out with the bad so we can start working with the good. It doesn't stay that way. For the guys truly interested in doing the work and becoming better men, blaming the women in your life for what you didn't know, or what you practiced that was incorrect ... doesn't serve anyone.

You are obviously pretty thoughtful FW. Do you truly believe women have _NO_ impact on the men that little boys may become? Or, do you disagree these days that there are many men who aren't much more than grown up little boys?

I wrestle with my 10 year old son. He loves it. Smiling, laughing the whole time. It's physical, it's bonding, it's a release for him.
Every time my ex sees it, she will say, "I don't like that." to which I now only ever respond with a smile and say, "That's ok. You don't have to do it."
I truly believe that it is bonding and provides him with a way to feel safe and playfully aggressive. It's a good thing. However, the next time there is some altercation between him and his younger sibling sister, who does my ex blame? 

Me.

Which I'm just fine with these days.


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## Faithful Wife

Thanks for the voice of reason and manhood, Northern Monkey.


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## Faithful Wife

Deejo asked: "You are obviously pretty thoughtful FW. Do you truly believe women have NO impact on the men that little boys may become? Or, do you disagree these days that there are many men who aren't much more than grown up little boys?"


Everyone has FOO issues.

It might have been daddy was a meanie, mommie was a wh*re, uncle creepy was a molester, big brother beat my head in daily, little sister got all the preferential treatment....whatever!

When you are an adult, it is up to you to deal with those issues. If you want to group up with others who have similar FOO issues because that helps you make sense of everything, great!

But at some point you just deal and get over it, right?

Why try starting a gender war over it? Just move on. Get right with yourself. Do better. Don't repeat the pattern. Hammering on and on about it just makes one look like a whiny victim.


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## Northern Monkey

Totally agree. I have 100 reasons for being messed up.

Reason 100 is "i never broke the cycle".

Until I realised reason 100 was there, I accepted the other 99 as excuses.

They aren't.

Society paints a dreary picture of modern man for sure. I say screw it. If society said jump into lava, I'd say err wtf, no thanks. I am doing the same here.


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## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> Why try starting a gender war over it? Just move on. Get right with yourself. Do better. Don't repeat the pattern. Hammering on and on about it just makes one look like a whiny victim.


I'm making the presumption you are directing that at the originators of that video.

No one is going to argue there are feminazi's to whose views we give little credence.
Therefore shouldn't we just do the same with the male equivalent?

You're giving them too much credit, and what concerns me is you aren't giving quite enough to the guys, or girls who as adults ARE trying to 'just deal with it.

How is it that you come to deal with something until you can acknowledge it as a problem?

Therein lies the reason why many adults don't ever, and will never ... deal with their crap.

I don't think you would say that 'Misogyny doesn't exist.'
But it does sound like you're saying 'Emasculation or misandry doesn't exist. And if it does, those who say so are whiners.'

How is a man supposed to deal with the issue of putting women on a pedestal if he doesn't recognize that putting women on a pedestal is harming how he perceives or relates to women? 

See what I mean?


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## Faithful Wife

Deejo, I'm not saying emasculation doesn't exist. I'm just saying that we all have our FOO issues and we need to deal with them individually. We do not need to then start a gender war over it.

Does anyone want to hear what *MY* FOO issues are? 

Nope.

Does it help me at all to discuss my FOO issues with anyone who will listen?

Nope.

Have I sought out others with similar issues to help me? Yes, I have, and it did help me. But the ones who had similar issues and did help me didn't also wave banners about how the specific types of people who hurt us are soooooooooo horrible and are everywhere and are ruining society.

I don't see why my stance isn't just an obvious one, Deejo.

YES, this stuff happens. I have read NMMNG and I loved it, also gave it to my son to read, just in case I was mommy-fying him too much. I have recommended that book to numerous people I felt it could help.

But that is where it stops. It is simply ONE variation on all the millions of ways we can be harmed as children and grow up with deficits as a result. 

So at what point do you just get your man-up on and stop talking about it? 

Hey, I'm one of the women in the world who has been out there going "where have all the men gone?" And in my search for that, yes I found NMMNG and thought "oh yeah, that makes sense". And then I just kept searching. Should I have instead thought "OH NO! My mother's generation emasculated every man in the world and I have no hope of ever finding one in my life.....AHHHHH!"

Well thank goodness I didn't give up and stop there. Instead, I read up about good dating practices, got my girl-up on, and found a man who has never even heard of NMMNG, nor of any of the issues behind it.

Who would have thunk men like that still exist, if we only go by the loud calls from the emasculation committee?

I'm here trying to tell people that there ARE STILL MEN out there who have either over come the emasculation or were never womanized to begin with. Isn't that a message men would like to hear?


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## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm here trying to tell people that there ARE STILL MEN out there who have either over come the emasculation or were never womanized to begin with. Isn't that a message men would like to hear?


Cool. Nope. Don't think there is an argument between us. Thanks for responding.

And just to lighten it up a little, I can tell you that the message most men hear loud and clear and are thrilled with, is that there are women out there that respect their man, and actually enjoy giving blow jobs.

Cripes, I want to throw those women a parade.


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## Faithful Wife

"Cripes, I want to throw those women a parade."

Me, too!

We can make floats that are giant naked bodies in various sexual poses, parading down the street shamelessly!

I'll be on a float in my cheer leader costume, twirling a baton and tumbling, and I'll put my hubby in a football uniform!

See, now isn't that way more fun than talking about how men/women ruined our lives?

My man ROCKS MY LIFE, and I rock his, too.


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## TiggyBlue

I don't know if it's emasculation but I do agree many are brought up to be soft (seen it happen to both boys and girls).


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## Northern Monkey

I just want to add, not only are there "real" men or whatever label fits, out there. But that becoming emasculated isn't a life sentence. We can break free of those shackles any time we want to.

I am a work in progress, but hey progress feels great.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: The Effects of Emasculation*



Faithful Wife said:


> Deejo, I'm not saying emasculation doesn't exist. I'm just saying that we all have our FOO issues and we need to deal with them individually. We do not need to then start a gender war over it.
> 
> Does anyone want to hear what *MY* FOO issues are?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Does it help me at all to discuss my FOO issues with anyone who will listen?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Have I sought out others with similar issues to help me? Yes, I have, and it did help me. But the ones who had similar issues and did help me didn't also wave banners about how the specific types of people who hurt us are soooooooooo horrible and are everywhere and are ruining society.
> 
> I don't see why my stance isn't just an obvious one, Deejo.
> 
> YES, this stuff happens. I have read NMMNG and I loved it, also gave it to my son to read, just in case I was mommy-fying him too much. I have recommended that book to numerous people I felt it could help.
> 
> But that is where it stops. It is simply ONE variation on all the millions of ways we can be harmed as children and grow up with deficits as a result.
> 
> So at what point do you just get your man-up on and stop talking about it?
> 
> Hey, I'm one of the women in the world who has been out there going "where have all the men gone?" And in my search for that, yes I found NMMNG and thought "oh yeah, that makes sense". And then I just kept searching. Should I have instead thought "OH NO! My mother's generation emasculated every man in the world and I have no hope of ever finding one in my life.....AHHHHH!"
> 
> Well thank goodness I didn't give up and stop there. Instead, I read up about good dating practices, got my girl-up on, and found a man who has never even heard of NMMNG, nor of any of the issues behind it.
> 
> Who would have thunk men like that still exist, if we only go by the loud calls from the emasculation committee?
> 
> I'm here trying to tell people that there ARE STILL MEN out there who have either over come the emasculation or were never womanized to begin with. Isn't that a message men would like to hear?


I like this comment FW, but one thing about your view that doesn't sit well with me is that it seems you put those guys whom were never emasculated to begin with above those that have overcome emasculation? To me, these two types of guys are worlds apart, and the ones who've overcome will always have to be vigilant and will consistently be aware of their underlying emasculated condition and actively managing to avoid it - I wonder if the damage of being emasculated is permanent, because that is how I feel it is for me.


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## Northern Monkey

Lon you're a great guy. Any number of people here will attest to that. But its either a fundamental part of your true nature, in which case accept yourself for who you are or if it was a programming thing like for me, its only as permanent as you allow it to be.

It's not easy and each of us may have a different ceiling we can reach. Until you get there, fake it till you make it seems appropriate.


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## azteca1986

Lon said:


> I like this comment FW, but one thing about your view that doesn't sit well with me is that it seems you put those guys whom were never emasculated to begin with above those that have overcome emasculation? To me, these two types of guys are worlds apart, and the ones who've overcome will always have to be vigilant and will consistently be aware of their underlying emasculated condition and actively managing to avoid it - I wonder if the damage of being emasculated is permanent, because that is how I feel it is for me.


In what ways do you feel emasculated?


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## Faithful Wife

Lon, I am sorry if it seems that way (that I place some men higher than others).

In all honesty, I would never even ask a man about this topic unless he offered it. It really doesn't matter to me, either way. 

I love and respect MEN! I don't even know what people are talking about most of the time when it comes to "feminism" issues. No one in my life talks about those issues.

So it seems to me (around here at TAM) that all women are labled feminists...when I, for one, don't even know what all that entails. Yet I am still labeled that way, all the time, apparently because I'm female I "must" also be a feminist?

Perhaps if you can accept that I'm not a feminist, my "voice" and opinion will be heard differently?

I have been fortunate in that, no one has strongly shaped my views one way or the other on gender issues. I don't have hang ups about how men have hurt me or the world...nor do I have feelings that women are superior.

People are people!

All people have strengths and weaknesses.

My husband has all kinds of FOO issues, and they effect his life every day. So it isn't like he got off scot-free while other people suffered. He has suffered, too. But his suffering has nothing to do with why I dig him.


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## PreRaphaelite

If emasculation was such an easy thing to define and deal with, well, we'd all have been promoted to Secretary of Health, Sex Education and Gender Welfare by now given all the opinions here.

What I see here is this, without going into any detail about causes or what to do:

Males 40ish and under increasingly get the sense that they are not needed. There's a bouncing back-and-forth about masculinity between two extremes that is good for no one. On the one hand, maleness gets characterized as the root of all evil. On the other hand, the reaction to that is over-the-top macho, throw the biatch down on the bed, pump her and dump her, and f--- you to educating yourself and taking your place in a society that doesn't give a damn about you. 

This society is fricking bi-polar with ridiculous macho on one side and mushy softness on the other. Young men are frankly very confused.

Yes, you can always say that a "real" man deals with it individually and makes his own choices, but relying on that is going to get you a few "real" men and a whole bunch of males who will come up with their own ways of being a real man, many of them very destructive or self-destructive, because they just simply haven't been taught.

I'll give you an example. Men of my father's generation didn't define their masculinity primarily in terms of macho. There were several virtues. One of the biggest was being educated, because whatever happens to you, your education is one of the few ways you have of improving yourself and becoming an individual. THAT's what a man had to learn and not just to have the biggest biceps or to get the woman and keep her.

I hardly see that anymore. Becoming a man is really difficult, and it's not gotten any easier. It involves investing your energy into things you think are worthwhile, but that's just it, lots of young males see nothing in the future for themselves that's worth a damn, so what do they do? They rebel or they just conform, i.e. they surrender to the prevailing stereotypes.

yes, there are still enough men out there that do strive for things that they think are worthwhile and use that to define their lives, and hey, if you happen to be married to one of them good for you! But what I see is that less and less males believe in that, and it shows in many ways.


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## Faithful Wife

Pre....I do hear you. And I fully admit that *I* personally have no clue how to counteract the problems you are talking about in the world. So I worked directly with my own son on that issue, and I work in my marriage on various issues, and I openly admire and respect men in my life.

What else can *I* do?

Honest question.

Do I need to get on a bandwagon?

What about other people who are getting trampled on in the world? What about the homeless, the mentally impaired, the starving children, the people caring for loved ones with Alzheimers? My point is, I am not an activist. I care about people who are suffering and I try not to add to their suffering and I try to directly help those around me.

Do you really think I also have to be on the emasuclation committee?

Please don't bash me...I am honestly wondering.


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## PreRaphaelite

FW: My post was not at all directed at you, and no you certainly don't. What can any of us do? Parenting is one thing and an extremely important one.

I hope you understand my point: becoming an activist to counteract emasculation, homelessness, etc. That's a choice each of us makes and we certainly can't do everything. Far from it. There's just far too much that we can't do and part of being grown-up is accepting that fact. (At least IMO)

If I had a good answer of what to do I'd tell you, but I don't. There are too many forces out there pulling us in different directions. The importance of fathers is finally being recognized again yet at the same time there are less and less households with fathers, and less and less successful marriages. (TAM is an eye-opener!)

There are some seismic shifts happening in our society and I don't think any of us really know what's going to come. Not much of an answer, I know. TBH, I don't think the near future for young males looks very bright, but the worse it gets, the more I think people will see the need for a change.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: The Effects of Emasculation*



azteca1986 said:


> In what ways do you feel emasculated?


I feel like the only option I have if I want to be the kind of man that is respected is to fake it. Because when I'm myself I'm completely invisible to the world.


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## PreRaphaelite

Lon said:


> I feel like the only option I have if I want to be the kind of man that is respected is to fake it. Because when I'm myself I'm completely invisible to the world.


Sometimes an inward look that nobody sees or values is all we have to actually save us.


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## Faithful Wife

Pre...it is a conundrum, to be sure.

Many things in this world are.

For myself, I will just continue to love and respect men and make that known to those around me. That's what I can do, and it isn't forced or faked.


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## See_Listen_Love

I would like to see some statistics on the issue of emasculation, because the opinions are strong here, but I feel there is a lack of facts.

I see that the schools are flooded with female teachers, manual labor diminishes and in the offices people are trained over and over in social skills about working together, conforming to the company standards, etc. etc.

There is simply less and less space for the masculinity which is so appraised by some female posters. And yes, feminism is to blame for this landslide to produce female traits in boys and male workers.

But that is what I see, I would like to have some numbers about this issue.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: The Effects of Emasculation*



Faithful Wife said:


> Lon, I am sorry if it seems that way (that I place some men higher than others).
> 
> In all honesty, I would never even ask a man about this topic unless he offered it. It really doesn't matter to me, either way.
> 
> I love and respect MEN! I don't even know what people are talking about most of the time when it comes to "feminism" issues. No one in my life talks about those issues.
> 
> So it seems to me (around here at TAM) that all women are labled feminists...when I, for one, don't even know what all that entails. Yet I am still labeled that way, all the time, apparently because I'm female I "must" also be a feminist?
> 
> Perhaps if you can accept that I'm not a feminist, my "voice" and opinion will be heard differently?
> 
> I have been fortunate in that, no one has strongly shaped my views one way or the other on gender issues. I don't have hang ups about how men have hurt me or the world...nor do I have feelings that women are superior.
> 
> People are people!
> 
> All people have strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> My husband has all kinds of FOO issues, and they effect his life every day. So it isn't like he got off scot-free while other people suffered. He has suffered, too. But his suffering has nothing to do with why I dig him.


You don't have to be sorry, that is life, we all rank people according to our own personal values and interests. What is hard for me to accept is that I would rank low on your list and since your values and interests are also shared by a majority of people I would thusly rank low by societal standards.

But I like who I am and I don't want to change, I just wish that my nature was more closely aligned to what would rank higher by societal standards. I am actually very thankful that I am in a relationship with someone who values me as I am, but the skeptical part of me has a hard time reconciling that with what I have always known, she is a rare gem forsure, I, and guys like me, just need to accept that there could be women out there whom go against what you and a seemingly majority of women are personally attracted to.


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## nice777guy

If you are Emasculated, you have no one to blame but yourself.


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## Faithful Wife

Lon, I understand what you are saying.

I don't know anything about you or your story, so I can't comment as to you, personally. But honestly? The only men I find unattractive are the ones who are whiny and blame someone else for their own choices. You don't seem like that, to me.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: The Effects of Emasculation*



Faithful Wife said:


> Lon, I understand what you are saying.
> 
> I don't know anything about you or your story, so I can't comment as to you, personally. But honestly? The only men I find unattractive are the ones who are whiny and blame someone else for their own choices. You don't seem like that, to me.


I certainly don't blame anyone for my actions, just a part of me despises the built-in tribalism we each have, that we don't truly appreciate diversity like we think we do. Life can be unfair, how humankind deals with that unfairness is the interesting part.


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## PreRaphaelite

To me, not being emasculated means having the courage to pursue what really matters to you regardless of what others think. Otherwise we'd end up calling half the artistic and literary males in this world a bunch of pussies, which is utterly stupid.


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## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> Pre....I do hear you. And I fully admit that *I* personally have no clue how to counteract the problems you are talking about in the world. So I worked directly with my own son on that issue, and I work in my marriage on various issues, and I openly admire and respect men in my life.
> 
> What else can *I* do?
> 
> Honest question.
> 
> Do I need to get on a bandwagon?
> 
> What about other people who are getting trampled on in the world? What about the homeless, the mentally impaired, the starving children, the people caring for loved ones with Alzheimers? My point is, I am not an activist. I care about people who are suffering and I try not to add to their suffering and I try to directly help those around me.
> 
> Do you really think I also have to be on the emasuclation committee?
> 
> Please don't bash me...I am honestly wondering.


What do you do for those other things? 

Maybe you don't serve on the committee, but I suspect that you try, in your daily life, to reward behavior that treats those people with respect and recognizes their differences. Perhaps you speak up on their behalf during the course of the day. 

Just as I would speak up if someone told my daughter that girls don't like science (not just because it is my daughter, but because it is wrong), I would expect others to speak up if someone told a boy that he was a brute because he liked to wrestle.


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## SimplyAmorous

We are raising 5 sons, obviously we don't want our boys to grow up Emasculated as seen in that video...seems most of those women shown were real Bi*ches though...

#1 lesson to sons... Don't marry a Bi*ch with entitlement baggage. 

We also don't want them to grow up as Bullies, Pick Up artist converts, using people to get ahead, donning the wife beater T-shirt and living such a lifestyle to go along with it...

Although my husband Isn't Mr Alpha..he has a naturally softer temperament ....it's something I love and wouldn't change.

I feel what young men need taught today is below....and seen exampled by the MEN in their lives.....Fathers, Uncles, Grandfathers, adult Mentors... 

Everything else, seems meaningless to me personally, or gone off in a wrong direction....a Man of Honorable Character is a Man of value & substance. He will take measures, when he walks uprightly to deal with disrespect that comes his way...holding to his boundaries & fighting for what is right....as every GOOD man should do. 

In my personal view...too much emphasis is on Sports today... while other male passions are diminished ...for Men.. why?? 

My father didn't play sports, he was into Motorcycles - Did Hill Climbs.... so he had his Risk taking adventures I suppose.... my husband wasn't any good at sports .. just not HIS thing......our boys are far more Musically inclined in comparison.....The way society praises Sports Heros... I find rather sickening... 

Copying & pasting my thread ...as this is my contribution to what I feel is needed today..... if these attributes are lacking....there is no hope for society...or our future MEN... 



> I stumbled upon this Blog....
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> 7 Traits of a Real Man - One Fathers Quest to be a Better Dad
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> It just captured the essence & spirit of How I personally view the very best of MEN...
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> One of the blog replies said this >>
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> "This is truly a genderless list. If all of us could strive to be less self-involved and more outwardly tuned, we'd be the humans we all have the potential to be. Most importantly, the world would be a far better place for our children."
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> *1*.... *Integrity* – Integrity is more than being honest. It’s a lifestyle set on striving towards moral excellence. Real men say what they mean and mean what they say. They are the same person whether or not others are watching. They are trustworthy, dependable, and unwavering.
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> *2*....*Compassion* – Compassion is sympathetic consciousness of others’ distress together with a desire to alleviate it. In other words, you feel compelled to help someone who is hurting. Men aren’t often viewed as being compassionate, but it is a trait that helps us to become more connected to the people around us. Real men turn their compassion into service and work to make the world a better place.
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> *3*.... *Confidence* – Real men are confident. Many people confuse confidence with arrogance and self-centeredness. Real men know the difference. Confidence is about being self-assured and self-aware. Confident men have faith in their abilities and knowledge. They don’t need to tear others down in order to build themselves up. They earn people’s trust with their radiant, inner strength. When a they walk into the room, everyone takes notice.
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> *4*....*Self-control* – Hardly a day goes by without a news report about some high-profile man who has been destroyed by sex, money, and/or drugs. Too many men lack self-control, but it is the foundation of a virtuous life. Self-control starts with focus and ridding yourself of distractions. Doing this isn’t easy because temptations lurk around every corner. Real men are able to tame their desires and channel that energy into positive pursuits.
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> “Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude.” William James
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> *5*....*Perseverance* – Perseverance is the product of self-control. It is courageous resistance against difficult circumstances. Perseverance is only developed through trials. Real men endure the trials and emerge stronger. They never give up."
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> "Sometimes you must cross a bridge and other times you need to burn it. But, always keep building one and never lose your faith in life". ~Dodinsky.
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> *6*....*Bravery* – Bravery is the courage to do what is right regardless of the circumstances. Nothing is ever accomplished with an attitude of passivity. Real men stand up in the face of adversity.
> 
> "Look at hopelessness in the face and say: "We are simply not meant to be together. Hold courage's hand and walk away". ~Dodinsky
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *7*....*Humility* – Today’s breed of young men loves to let everyone know how much swagger they have. They thump their chests and proclaim to the world, “I’m a Big Deal. Look at me!” Real men understand the value of being humble and letting someone else’s light shine. They realize that humility is more endearing than self-importance.
> 
> Humility indicates that you are ridding yourself of the poison of self-centeredness. Besides, humility softens the blow when someone knocks you off your pedestal.
> Acquiring all of these traits takes time and dedication. However, our society would benefit greatly if all men strove to possess them.
> 
> *8*.... *A Real Man has Charisma, Passion, & Reliability* ...A real man is not afraid to show his emotions - for he is secure in himself. A real man knows what he wants from life...and always puts his woman first. A real man knows how to treat his woman, and will go out of his way for her. You can put all of your faith in a real man, because he will not fail you. Although these type of men sound like they are from a fairy tale, they do exist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *9.*...*Real Men Protect & Provide*. In the same way that most women are appear programmed to protect & nurture their children/loved ones.... Real Men are programmed to Protect & Provide for the women & children in their lives. Real men do protect women & our society should back them up on it.
> 
> The physical-strength advantage that most males have over most females puts them at a huge advantage over women – advantage that, unfortunately, gets abused by some men. Thankfully, the majority of men are not like this -therefore we should be careful to not generalize treating all men as potential predators or evil.
> 
> “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” ~ Edmund Burke
Click to expand...


----------



## Faithful Wife

TAG said: "Just as I would speak up if someone told my daughter that girls don't like science (not just because it is my daughter, but because it is wrong), I would expect others to speak up if someone told a boy that he was a brute because he liked to wrestle."

I have literally NEVER heard anything even remotely similar to this being said to a boy.

But if I did, I would step in and say something.

Just today, my single mom girlfriend (whose ex-husband willingly abandoned his children and he never sees them) was talking about how she was at a park with her 9 y/o son, and she didn't want to him to go to the other side of the play ground where she couldn't see him, because she was worried about child snatchers. The boy wasn't buying into her fear and ran off anyway. I told her "next time, tell him YOU need HIS protection because you are afraid of YOU getting snatched up and that is why he needs to stay where he can see you". 

How was that?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> I have literally NEVER heard anything even remotely similar to this being said to a boy.


Unfortunately, I have. Young boys reprimanded for wrestling outside and asked why they could not just play quietly like the girls. Once was at a get together with friends. I told her that this is what boys do, where upon I was told not her son, because he had manners. I laughed. Either way, the point was clear that their actions were bad, while how the girls acted was good.



> Just today, my single mom girlfriend (whose ex-husband willingly abandoned his children and he never sees them) was talking about how she was at a park with her 9 y/o son, and she didn't want to him to go to the other side of the play ground where she couldn't see him, because she was worried about child snatchers. The boy wasn't buying into her fear and ran off anyway. I told her "next time, tell him YOU need HIS protection because you are afraid of YOU getting snatched up and that is why he needs to stay where he can see you".
> 
> How was that?


I am torn. Nice idea, though not sure you want him thinking that mom could get snatched at anytime. If possible, I would just secret follow so that he stayed in sight, even if he did not know it, though I recognize that is not always possible. Exploration is a big for a lot of boys, so it is not something I try to stifle. I will have to think about the best way to address this.


----------



## ocotillo

Deejo said:


> This particular topic doesn't require women to be the 'enemy'.


Exactly.

The social phenomenon is real and documented, but blaming women for it is wrong. It's just as bad as blaming men for the so-called 'patriarchy'. 

The reality is social trends acquire a great deal of inertia and all of us to some extent are simply twigs caught in a swift current.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TAG - yes, good point. And I thought about that too, while I was saying it to her. I wouldn't want the boy to be husbandized or adultized. It sounded good at the time, though. I was remembering back to when my son was little and thoughts like this one actually worked very well on him. It gave him the feeling that he was strong and able.

But I admit, I am not sure if it is the right thing to say.

My son is certainly protective of me now. He also opens my doors. 

(Edited to add: it was my current husband, my son's step-father, that taught my son about opening doors...not me! I wasn't even used to having my doors opened when I met my current husband. I didn't know it was something a man would enjoy doing. He had to teach me to stop opening it myself before he could get to it!)


----------



## norajane

TiggyBlue said:


> I don't know if it's emasculation but I do agree many are brought up to be soft (seen it happen to both boys and girls).


In my opinion, children are being brought up to remain helpless and childlike well into their 20's by helicopter parents. 

How are they ever going to "man up" or "woman up" if they aren't taught to grow up because mommy and daddy took care of every little thing for them?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Faithful Wife said:


> TAG - yes, good point. And I thought about that too, while I was saying it to her. I wouldn't want the boy to be husbandized or adultized. It sounded good at the time, though. I was remembering back to when my son was little and thoughts like this one actually worked very well on him. It gave him the feeling that he was strong and able.


I generally agree with this, and know it works well for my son. I am just unsure in the specific example you gave.



> (Edited to add: it was my current husband, my son's step-father, that taught my son about opening doors...not me! I wasn't even used to having my doors opened when I met my current husband. I didn't know it was something a man would enjoy doing. He had to teach me to stop opening it myself before he could get to it!)


Use to do that all the time as well. With three kids, it is less common, particularly when we are all going somewhere. Just is not practical for her to stand around waiting for me to open her door when I have my arms full of stuff to put in the car. When we are out on a date, however, I always open her door (though she sometimes forgets to let me).


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## TiggyBlue

norajane said:


> In my opinion, children are being brought up to remain helpless and childlike well into their 20's by helicopter parents.
> 
> How are they ever going to "man up" or "woman up" if they aren't taught to grow up because mommy and daddy took care of every little thing for them?


That's exactly what I mean, so many time's I've seen a adult getting in the middle of kid's arguing or fighting instead of letting them resolve it for themselves (unless something is getting really out of hand). 
How the hell are they going to learn how to stand up for themselves if they are never in a situation where they have to or they are never allowed to?
My mum came from a rough area so I was pretty much taught 'bully someone your in trouble, don't stand up for yourself your in trouble'.


----------



## norajane

TiggyBlue said:


> That's exactly what I mean, so many time's I've seen a adult getting in the middle of kid's arguing or fighting instead of letting them resolve it for themselves (unless something is getting really out of hand).
> How the hell are they going to learn how to stand up for themselves if they are never in a situation where they have to or they are never allowed to?
> My mum came from a rough area so I was pretty much taught 'bully someone your in trouble, don't stand up for yourself your in trouble'.


I agree and think it goes way beyond just being able to stand up for yourself in an argument or fight.

If kids aren't taught responsibility, they learn entitlement.

If kids aren't allowed to make mistakes and deal with the consequences, they learn that they can do no wrong and someone will always clean up their messes.

If kids aren't taught to do chores, they learn that someone else will do it for them and they don't have to.

If kids never have their privileges taken away as a result of bad behavior, they never learn the difference between rights and privileges.

If kids aren't taught to be kind, compassionate and do for others, they learn to be self-centered and selfish.

If kids never have to work for anything, they learn to be lazy and lax and never bother to work for anything, including other people's respect, trust, or love.

Etc., etc.

They grow up to be big children, not adults and that follows them in everything they do in their lives, including their relationships.


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## nice777guy

norajane said:


> I agree and think it goes way beyond just being able to stand up for yourself in an argument or fight.
> 
> If kids aren't taught responsibility, they learn entitlement.
> 
> If kids aren't allowed to make mistakes and deal with the consequences, they learn that they can do no wrong and someone will always clean up their messes.
> 
> If kids aren't taught to do chores, they learn that someone else will do it for them and they don't have to.
> 
> If kids never have their privileges taken away as a result of bad behavior, they never learn the difference between rights and privileges.
> 
> If kids aren't taught to be kind, compassionate and do for others, they learn to be self-centered and selfish.
> 
> If kids never have to work for anything, they learn to be lazy and lax and never bother to work for anything, including other people's respect, trust, or love.
> 
> Etc., etc.
> 
> They grow up to be big children, not adults and that follows them in everything they do in their lives, including their relationships.


I agree with every word.

None of this is gender specific and it has nothing to do with being emasculated.


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## SimplyAmorous

Lon said:


> *I am actually very thankful that I am in a relationship with someone who values me as I am*, but the skeptical part of me has a hard time reconciling that with what I have always known, *she is a rare gem for sure,* I, and guys like me, just need to accept that there could be women out there whom go against what you and a seemingly majority of women are personally attracted to.


Hey...that's wonderful to hear LON !!


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## ocotillo

I agree with all the comments about teaching children to be responsible adults regardless of their gender

I guess a lot depends on what is meant by "Emasculated."

Books with titles like _The Natural Superiority of Women _or _Men Are Not Cost Effective_ or _Are Men Necessary?_ pretty much speak for themselves, don't they?

When we as a society start preaching this stuff to young boys, telling them that male qualities are unnecessary, outdated, and even detrimental, what does anyone expect?


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## Faithful Wife

I've never taken a Women's Studies class, therefore have never read any book with that kind of title. I can't imagine reading one by choice.


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## SimplyAmorous

ocotillo said:


> I agree with all the comments about teaching children to be responsible adults regardless of their gender
> 
> I guess a lot depends on what is meant by "Emasculated."
> 
> Books with titles like _*The Natural Superiority of Women* _or _Men Are Not Cost Effective_ or _Are Men Necessary?_ pretty much speak for themselves, don't they?
> 
> When we as a society start preaching this stuff to young boys, telling them that male qualities are unnecessary, outdated, and even detrimental, what does anyone expect?


Here's 2 more...

*1*. The End of Men: And the Rise of Women: 



> A landmark portrait of women, men, and power in a transformed world.
> 
> Men have been the dominant sex since, well, the dawn of mankind. But Hanna Rosin was the first to notice that this long-held truth is, astonishingly, no longer true. At this unprecedented moment, by almost every measure, women are no longer gaining on men: They have pulled decisively ahead. And “the end of men”—the title of Rosin’s Atlantic cover story on the subject—has entered the lexicon as dramatically as Betty Friedan’s “feminine mystique,” Simone de Beauvoir’s “second sex,” Susan Faludi’s “backlash,” and Naomi Wolf’s “beauty myth” once did.
> 
> In this landmark book, Rosin reveals how this new state of affairs is radically shifting the power dynamics between men and women at every level of society, with profound implications for marriage, sex, children, work, and more. With wide-ranging curiosity and insight unhampered by assumptions or ideology, Rosin shows how the radically different ways men and women today earn, learn, spend, couple up—even kill—has turned the big picture upside down. And in The End of Men she helps us see how, regardless of gender, we can adapt to the new reality and channel it for a better future.



*2*. : How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys: 



> Women complain there are no good men left—that men are immature, unreliable, and adrift. No wonder. Masculine role models have become increasingly juvenile and inarticulate: think of stars like Adam Sandler and Will Ferrell, or the dudes of the popular Judd Apatow movies. There are no rules for dating and mating. Guys are unsure how to treat a woman. Most importantly, dating in the pre-adult years is no longer a means to an end—marriage—as it was in the past. Many young men today suspect they are no longer essential to family life, and without the old scripts to follow, they find themselves stuck between adolescence and “real” adulthood. In Manning Up, Kay Hymowitz sets these problems in a socioeconomic context:
> 
> today’s knowledge economy is female friendly, and many of the highest profile areas of that economy—communications, design, the arts, and health care—are dominated by women. Men are increasingly left on the outskirts of this new, service economy, and take much longer to find a financial foothold.
> 
> With no biological clock telling them it’s time to grow up, without the financial resources to settle down, and with the accepted age of marriage rising into the late 30s or even 40s, men are holding onto adolescence at the very time that women are achieving professional success and looking to find a mate to share it with. A provocative account of the modern sexual economy, Hymowitz deftly charts a gender mismatch that threatens the future of the American family and makes no one happy in the long run.


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## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> "The modern boy is educated to be a girl.
> 
> And then the women want a macho hairpuller??"
> 
> 
> 
> I guess all those very few men who weren't educated to be girls got snapped up by us women who want real macho hairpullers.
> 
> Yay, me!
> 
> Before I came here, I had no idea that so many men blame women for their own mistakes in life.
> 
> My husband has never once made any statement about anyone in his life being to blame for anything he has done. He doesn't have this deep fear and hatred of women that is obvious in the makers of that video. He doesn't listen to feminist nor anti-feminist sides of anything. I am not sure he is even aware that so many men are still hung up on blaming their mommies for everything. He doesn't hang around with men who would talk about stuff like that and doesn't read stuff like this.
> 
> He does though, know how to do a proper sexual throw down. And he doesn't ask my permission first.


And what if you rejected him?


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## Faithful Wife

treyvion....LOL!

I have literally never rejected him.

Ever.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> treyvion....LOL!
> 
> I have literally never rejected him.
> 
> Ever.


That's up to you though. What if you did as an expirament, rejected him for two weeks straight. Then go back to normal in the third week.


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## Faithful Wife

Why would I reject him as an experiment? I want MORE sex, not less.


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## RandomDude

> I told her "next time, tell him YOU need HIS protection because you are afraid of YOU getting snatched up and that is why he needs to stay where he can see you".


Yes, I agree with this.

My mother was the same raising me, as fudged as she was, but I was expected to learn how to be a man. Being bodyguard was part of a man's duty, ready to defend his loved ones.


----------



## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> I've never taken a Women's Studies class, therefore have never read any book with that kind of title. I can't imagine reading one by choice.



I had a teacher in the 7th grade who read excerpts from _The Natural Superiority of Women _to the class. 

It's difficult today to describe the naked animosity that young Anglo, female teachers in the 1960's had towards men and the subtle and not so subtle ways it was expressed towards the boys they were supposed to be teaching.


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## RandomDude

> I had a teacher in the 7th grade who read excerpts from The Natural Superiority of Women to the class.


I've never heard about this in Australia

Hell is America THAT bad that it's spewing chauvanistic crap in its schools without the teachers getting sacked? Honestly, they have to be isolated cases...

Then again what do I know...


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## Faithful Wife

My mother was a grade school teacher in the 60's and 70's. At that time, female teachers had to wear dresses.

She didn't like it when they changed that rule and women could now wear pants.

She refused. She wanted to wear skirts and dresses.

Years later, in the 80's she did sometimes wear pant suits, but they were always very fancy and girly. 

She has literally never worn a pair of jeans in her life.


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## ocotillo

RandomDude said:


> Hell is America THAT bad that it's spewing chauvanistic crap in its schools without the teachers getting sacked? Honestly, they have to be isolated cases...


The 1960's in America was a very different time. The book has actually fallen out of favor with mainstream feminism and is largely forgotten today.


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## Viseral

I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful input on this topic. I really only became interested in gender issues after going through my divorce and hitting the books to help understand my own place in life.

FWIW, I understand the video was somewhat inflammatory and I in no way wished to start a gender war. I love women and I want nothing more than to be in a long-term, loving, meaningful relationship with a good women. I'm lucky because I have a good woman now who treats me right, and I know I treat her right too.

I was thinking more about the "effects of emasculation" on western men, and I think the topic can be broken down further for better understanding. Let's start with a definition taken from dictionary.com shall we:


e·mas·cu·late

1. to castrate. 

2. to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken.

3. deprived of or lacking strength or vigor; effeminate.

Synonyms: debilitate, undermine, devitalize, soften. 


So starting with that, we see that to emasculate a man is to remove his balls, make him effeminate, weaken him, and take away his power.

In the video, we saw the physical manifestation of this represented by the feminine, weak, metrosexual men. Also, and more importantly, I think to emasculate men is to take away their power. 

Now how does this play out in society? Has power been taken away from men? Do men have agency over their own lives?

I would definitely say that since the 1960's men have lost power over their own lives. So if emasculation means to take away power or weaken, then definitely men have been emasculated. 

How have men lost power? This being a forum discussing marriage, I think it's appropriate to point out the changes in laws governing marriage in recent decades. Having recently gone through a divorce, I have researched this well. 

Since 1970, quite a few laws have been passed to help/benefit/protect women. Women's and/or feminist groups were the primary driving force behind passing these laws, and while I don't believe they were passed to intentionally harm men, I believe the unintended consequences of these laws most certainly do. 

Some of the laws passed in the US since 1970 which take away power (emasculate) from men are:

No Fault Divorce (1970) - means either spouse can legally walk away from marriage at any time and for any reason, or no reason whatsoever.

Equitable Distribution Statutes: Means that all property in a marriage becomes marital property and is split evenly in a divorce. It doesn't matter who worked to earn the money to buy that property.

Bradley Amendment - means that men who can't pay alimony or child support through no fault of their own, like job loss, will be imprisoned.

Violence Against Women Act: means that violence against women is perceived as worse by our legal system than violence against men, even though men are much more likely to be victims of all kinds violence than women. Women can have a man imprisoned by merely making a phone call to the police.

Child Custody: Courts award child custody to women in most cases depriving fathers of their children.

Alimony/Child support: men pay 98% of all alimony/child support payments. The state forces men to pay huge sums of money to women, impoverishing men and making them little more than wage slaves.

So yes, with the laws listed above, men have lost power over their lives. The legal system does not value men and fathers. The laws have, in a sense, emasculated men. 

How can a man have power over his life and his family when his spouse can legally have him removed from his home at gun point by simply making a phone call, take his children, and make him pay her for it?

And while men can leave a marriage for no reason too, how many women have to pay their ex husbands for it, or risk being imprisoned if they can't pay?

So back to the video, while inflammatory, touches on the physical manifestation of emasculated metrosexual men, as well as men losing agency over their own lives because of laws that have been passed that hurt men.

I would also like to note the profound influence that technology has had on changing gender roles. Without technology, womens suffrage never would've occured, and men would still be needed to fullfill their traditional role of protector and provider. 

And I think that's where many men get lost; men are no longer valued as providers and are in many cases out competed by women. Physical labor, what men are good at, is soon becoming a thing of the past and is looked down upon. 

There is nothing to protect anymore. We live in a safe, soft, protected, sometimes virtual world where the strengths of men are not valued. Technology has eliminated the need for high risk, labor intensive tasks and has in the process, made men less relevent. Perhaps that's why so many men love to be in nature, because it's there where our strengths can be of value.

Not to mention that practically every commercial on tv depicts the modern white heterosexual male as a weak, incompetent, out-of-shape fool who's completely lost without his smart controlling wife or child correcting his every move.

So am I whining? Am I complaining? Or do men have legitimate issues worthy of discussion in the Men's Clubhouse? I think they do. And this is not women bashing, far from it, it's open conjecture on what men face in the modern world.

I intend to start another thread titled The Death of Distinction with another, less inflammatory video, about what I call the androgynization of society to discuss, well, the death of distinction between the genders. I hope everyone will contribute to that as well.

I'm off on vacation for two weeks so might not see ya'll around for while...


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Pre...it is a conundrum, to be sure.
> 
> Many things in this world are.
> 
> For myself, I will just continue to love and respect men and make that known to those around me. That's what I can do, and it isn't forced or faked.


Bravo. And I feel the about women. This is very much what we all can do ... one person at a time.

I just think it is time we see what we have done. Keep the positives but reject the negatives.


----------



## Entropy3000

RandomDude said:


> Ok, just clicked on that video, then I saw the website, "manhood academy", rather controversial that one. Some men DO need to grow some balls, but personally they are taking it the wrong way in my opinion. There will always be the extremists, I consider this group amongst them.
> 
> 
> 
> If I ever had a son, I would encourage him to fight, and even if he gets suspended, I'll get him something as a reward for standing up for himself. Hell I might even be like the dad in what was that movie... "King Arthur" thats right
> 
> "Have you been fighting?"
> "Yes dad!"
> "Have you been winning!"
> "Yes dad!"
> "That's my boy!"
> 
> Lol, but sorry guess I just don't want to raise a s-ssy. My daughter understands authority and has not encountered bullying thus far, but I doubt I would chastise her if she was violent within reason. My STBX however, definitely would go off her nut.


F'ing A.


----------



## dsGrazzl3D

I think men will always be fairly simple, with women being VERY complex. I think that gender roles, morals, and (_to me personally_) ETIQUETTE have been in a global state of decline for the past decade. I think that since the Y2K bug did not kill all the computers of the world & reset the economies the way it was predicted people all over have just given up. There seems to be less and less laughter, joy, and hope. I think that pigeon-holing the issue into just gender, or just culture (immigration) differences neglects basics. Basically we are all in life searching, on a journey. I think men and women will always question our roles with each other, but have they really *REALLY* changed?
Women still are the main people whom are raped, by men... I just don't see this as anything real, other than a topic main-stream media outlets love to bring up to bolster their own ratings... 

Sorry for my rant. Only my $.01 - _the other $.01 is still debt limbo!?!?_


----------



## Entropy3000

RandomDude said:


> If I ever had a son, I would encourage him to fight, and even if he gets suspended, I'll get him something as a reward for standing up for himself. Hell I might even be like the dad in what was that movie... "King Arthur" thats right
> 
> "Have you been fighting?"
> "Yes dad!"
> "Have you been winning!"
> "Yes dad!"
> "That's my boy!"


HAKA!!!



> molon labe ( μολὼν λαβέ ) -- "come and take" [them] (in response to the Persian army’s demand that the Spartans surrender their weapons at the Battle of Thermopylae).


I see this as letting the journey to battle to be my enemy's journey. There is a time to stand and fight even if one stands alone or in this case small number. One may die but one can decide to never be defeated. A young man needs to learn to have his integrity. To understand what is just and unjust. As we say here to know his fundamental boundaries and to never yield them to anyone. One does not have to seek the battle to not fear it. So is the spirit of the HAKA.

But yes. This is part of being a man.


----------



## Entropy3000

BaxJanson said:


> I think the missing element is discipline. Self-discipline. It's not taught, it's not encouraged, and it's not developed. Setting boundaries requires discipline. Controlling your emotions without snuffing them out requires discipline. Most 'manly' hobbies require vast amounts of discipline - time, focus, endurance, knowledge, fortitude...
> 
> But discipline means sometimes having to say no. And people don't like to be told no. So if we get rid of all the discipline, then no one has any reasons to say no.


How very wise.

The agenda to control the masses has always been with us. 

A person of integrity, discipline and accountability cannot be bought. That person is seen as very dangerous as they are not easily maniuplated. They weild true power.


----------



## nice777guy

Look at our government. Look at our financial leaders.

Men are clearly still a step ahead. 

Yet some of us want to claim we are victims?

Because our grade school teachers were women???

Really?


----------



## Entropy3000

hookares said:


> A man has nobody to blame but himself if he chooses to be anybody's doormat. It would be ideal if we could all learn this at an early age, but each situation is different and we learn at different rates.
> It would be ludicrous to suggest that the way a person is brought up doesn't eventually reflect on how they will interact with others.
> BUT, once a person becomes an adult, it's is clearly on him or her how he or she permits others to treat them.


I totally agree. It is just that many men go through hell before they start to reject the programming.

The best thing that happened to me is to leave home when I was 18 and join the Navy. I needed that. It gave me some much needed balance. The pendulum slid to the other extreme and then I was able to make real choices in life based on my own values.


----------



## Entropy3000

stevehowefan said:


> There's a car commercial out there, can't remember the name of the car, where a dad is teaching his son how to throw a ball. Needless to say, the dad can't throw it correctly either. It comes out looking worse than a "girl" throwing a ball. (I put that in quotations as a way to say that not all girls throw like "girls.")


I suppose some see this as funny. But I agree there is something wrong here. I would prefer to see a strong competent man showing his son how to play catch.

What we don't see during this is the wife with the pool guy in the back yard while the dad plays with the kid. Sorry I digress. I made that up. Bit when I see stuff like this I see someone who is being ridiculed.

Commercial

On the positve side the dad IS spending time with his son. But we can infer that this is not so often as neither can throw a ball.

Is this the Demographic for a VW?

Father and Son -- Mustang Seven years ago.

Father and Son talking about using protection

Funny one

Steve Spastic

3 Ways To Emasculate a Man by Kara Oh


----------



## See_Listen_Love

nice777guy said:


> Look at our government. Look at our financial leaders.
> 
> Men are clearly still a step ahead.
> 
> 1 Yet some of us want to claim we are victims?
> 
> 2 Because our grade school teachers were women 3 ???
> 
> 4 Really?


You get the argument wrong. Faithful Wife takes an argument, like the majority of teachers are now women (2) . Then add a ridiculous part of another opinion 'so you think you are a victim' (1), mixes them, and add a supposed conclusion to it (2+3), and then you add you cynical amazement (4) to a verbal construction that is completely wrong.

Maybe this an example of where the logic has gone. It is not even black and white thinking....

Happily other posters add real information and thought to the discussion, that is a welcome source of reasoning.


----------



## Caribbean Man

PreRaphaelite said:


> There are some seismic shifts happening in our society and I don't think any of us really know what's going to come. Not much of an answer, I know. TBH, *I don't think the near future for young males looks very bright, but the worse it gets, the more I think people will see the need for a change.*


:iagree:

I don't live in the USA, so I don't know all the factors that has contributed to this decline.
However down here we have a similar type of problem.
I don't think feminism is to blame in our case, but a lack of positive male role models or real father figures.
That's occurring simultaneously with definite shifting of traditional values due to the influence of the media . Both electronic and online.


----------



## hookares

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I don't live in the USA, so I don't know all the factors that has contributed to this decline.
> However down here we have a similar type of problem.
> I don't think feminism is to blame in our case, but a lack of positive male role models or real father figures.
> That's occurring simultaneously with definite shifting of traditional values due to the influence of the media . Both electronic and online.


It's pretty much the same here in the states.
The country is getting overfilled with "baby mamas" and non supporting "baby daddies" so boys are growing up pretty much on their own when it comes to being molded into "men".
This was true even many years ago, where even if a broken family received child support, the boys would be required to find employment if they hoped to have the material things that other kids enjoyed.
Myself, having seen my father walk on my mother when I was four years old, found my first job at the age of 12, so good or bad, I'm pretty much responsible for whatever I turned out to be.


----------



## Caribbean Man

hookares said:


> It's pretty much the same here in the states.
> The country is getting overfilled with "baby mamas" and non supporting "baby daddies" so boys are growing up pretty much on their own when it comes to being molded into "men".
> This was true even many years ago, where even if a broken family received child support, the boys would be required to find employment if they hoped to have the material things that other kids enjoyed.
> Myself, having seen my father walk on my mother when I was four years old, found my first job at the age of 12, so good or bad, I'm pretty much responsible for whatever I turned out to be.


My mother and father divorced when I was pretty young.
But I had eleven uncles around me and I was fortunate to learn a lot from them.

I remember ,when I was a little boy I had this irrational fear of deep water. 
Like most other guys my age in the village , I could swim, but unlike them, I was afraid of the deep.
I liked going for boat rides, one day I was in one of my uncle's boat, with another man,and he took it out to sea.
A good distance offshore they took me and threw me into the sea, and told me to swim back towards the shore.
Immediately , instinct, instead of panic, kicked in and I swam perfectly, straight towards shore.
When I hit the sand I realized that they were not far behind me, and I was no longer afraid of the deep.
From then, I began taking long swims with my other friends out to sea.

Today ,many years later, I have taken professional swimming courses, life saving courses scuba diving is one of my favourite hobbies.
Some might say that which my uncle did to me was cruel or even dangerous.
But it stands out in my mind because it taught me how to approach fear and what to do whenever I'm confronted with seemingly dangerous situations.

In any event, it used to be a " rite of passage " for most males in Caribbean Islands. I have seen it done quite a few times....
There are things that only a man could teach a boy , and they must be taught by his example.
Certain values ,character traits and so forth. Some of it can be taught by reading or books, much of it can only be accessed via hands on experience.


----------



## nice777guy

See_Listen_Love said:


> You get the argument wrong. Faithful Wife takes an argument, like the majority of teachers are now women (2) . Then add a ridiculous part of another opinion 'so you think you are a victim' (1), mixes them, and add a supposed conclusion to it (2+3), and then you add you cynical amazement (4) to a verbal construction that is completely wrong.
> 
> Maybe this an example of where the logic has gone. It is not even black and white thinking....
> 
> Happily other posters add real information and thought to the discussion, that is a welcome source of reasoning.


Per NMMNG, a big part of "the problem" is that men are raised primarily by women - including female elementary teachers. Don't give Faithful Wife all the credit for trying to connect those dots.

I suppose one man's recollection of being exposed to feminist literature as a child is a more important fact than studies showing women still struggle for pay equality in the workforce.

The whole emasculation theory is based on the idea that men are being victimized.


----------



## Entropy3000

nice777guy said:


> Look at our government. Look at our financial leaders.
> 
> Men are clearly still a step ahead.
> 
> Yet some of us want to claim we are victims?
> 
> Because our grade school teachers were women???
> 
> Really?


I think we are talking about society. Not just school teachers. It is guys who have no solid male role models. You have over zealous religious teaching.

Also nice guys like to suck up. They become part of the problem beyond themselves. They give very very poor advice to other guys. A negative mentor if you will. They back up the negative energies with their peers. A young person is very impressionable. Kinda like a plane taking off.

So this tends to spiral downwards. It has over decades. I have watched it. Most guys really mean well. Many of them ... not all certainly ... get run over. Those that are lucky to find exceptional women think all women are that way. So the advice they give works fine with these women. 

One thing that exascerbates all of this is that a man's brain does not fully mature until almost the age of thirty. Fortunately this is a double edged sword. The good news is that men can turn it around once they learn via hard knocks. ALL people can adapt BUT a guy at 22 can change dramatically by the time he is 30. IF he has not cratered his life by then. Or become too jaded.

I persoanally travelled my own path. That said, I have observed the changes that happened in the 60s and beyond. I was fortunate I chose a compatible woman. I was not headed that way at 21. I am so glad I did not marry a party girl or a woman who felt entitled. My point is that while I want to take credit for choosing her the fact is that much of it was blind luck. I was very much being molded to be a very naive nice guy. But when I joined the Navy it took me out of that environment and gave me some balance. I was able then to IMO choose the best of both worlds. Be we all are a work in progress.


----------



## Entropy3000

nice777guy said:


> Per NMMNG, a big part of "the problem" is that men are raised primarily by women - including female elementary teachers. Don't give Faithful Wife all the credit for trying to connect those dots.
> 
> I suppose one man's recollection of being exposed to feminist literature as a child is a more important fact than studies showing women still struggle for pay equality in the workforce.
> 
> The whole emasculation theory is based on the idea that men are being victimized.


You can call it victimized. I say it is marginalized. I think this happens as an over compensation. It can also happen when these women have had bad experiences of their own and they wish to throttle some of the traditional traits of masculinity. Or these women are thinking with their feminine brains which is natural and fine. So they try to bring up these boys to think like them. Very natural. To a point this is actually very good. It is very good when the boy has a male role model who can provide balance.

The bottom line is that most young men are very ill prepared in society. Many of them do not go on to higher education because they have become disenchated with the academic community.

Fortunately I have never had a need to read NMMNG. My reading of MMSL was just one part of my search to bring back the passion in my marriage. It was NOT because I was a Nice Guy.

Anyway, I do think that men who have found their way should help these guys by being brutally honest with them.


----------



## nice777guy

Completely agree that young men need more quality role models. But how can we - as a society - change that?


----------



## RandomDude

> Completely agree that young men need more quality role models. But how can we - as a society - change that?


Flood it with immigrants and let them take over your culture lol

Or maybe push for a movement? Wait, there seems to heaps of them already and none seem to escape its controversial nature. Perhaps a new movement with more balanced, logical, and respectable views can over-rule the present ones like "Manhood academy"


----------



## TiggyBlue

coffee4me said:


> I would highly recommend that if you have a son (or for your daughter) that you have them train in the martial arts and the art of self defense. That conversation from the Karate Kid is too true, "you train to fight so you don't have to".
> 
> A potential fight then becomes a few swift moves in self defense. The bully is not harmed, he is humiliated (just like his victim was) and your kid does not get suspended. It is tragic that a kid that stands up for himself gets punished in our school system but happens all the time.


:iagree:
Was done with me and will do it with my kid when she's old enough, knowing how to defend myself has saved my *ss a few times in the past.


----------



## john_lord_b3

Viseral said:


> I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful input on this topic. I really only became interested in gender issues after going through my divorce and hitting the books to help understand my own place in life.
> 
> FWIW, I understand the video was somewhat inflammatory and I in no way wished to start a gender war. I love women and I want nothing more than to be in a long-term, loving, meaningful relationship with a good women. I'm lucky because I have a good woman now who treats me right, and I know I treat her right too.
> 
> I was thinking more about the "effects of emasculation" on western men, and I think the topic can be broken down further for better understanding. Let's start with a definition taken from dictionary.com shall we:
> 
> 
> e·mas·cu·late
> 
> 1. to castrate.
> 
> 2. to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken.
> 
> 3. deprived of or lacking strength or vigor; effeminate.
> 
> Synonyms: debilitate, undermine, devitalize, soften.
> 
> 
> So starting with that, we see that to emasculate a man is to remove his balls, make him effeminate, weaken him, and take away his power.
> 
> In the video, we saw the physical manifestation of this represented by the feminine, weak, metrosexual men. Also, and more importantly, I think to emasculate men is to take away their power.
> 
> Now how does this play out in society? Has power been taken away from men? Do men have agency over their own lives?
> 
> I would definitely say that since the 1960's men have lost power over their own lives. So if emasculation means to take away power or weaken, then definitely men have been emasculated.
> 
> How have men lost power? This being a forum discussing marriage, I think it's appropriate to point out the changes in laws governing marriage in recent decades. Having recently gone through a divorce, I have researched this well.
> 
> Since 1970, quite a few laws have been passed to help/benefit/protect women. Women's and/or feminist groups were the primary driving force behind passing these laws, and while I don't believe they were passed to intentionally harm men, I believe the unintended consequences of these laws most certainly do.
> 
> Some of the laws passed in the US since 1970 which take away power (emasculate) from men are:
> 
> No Fault Divorce (1970) - means either spouse can legally walk away from marriage at any time and for any reason, or no reason whatsoever.
> 
> Equitable Distribution Statutes: Means that all property in a marriage becomes marital property and is split evenly in a divorce. It doesn't matter who worked to earn the money to buy that property.
> 
> Bradley Amendment - means that men who can't pay alimony or child support through no fault of their own, like job loss, will be imprisoned.
> 
> Violence Against Women Act: means that violence against women is perceived as worse by our legal system than violence against men, even though men are much more likely to be victims of all kinds violence than women. Women can have a man imprisoned by merely making a phone call to the police.
> 
> Child Custody: Courts award child custody to women in most cases depriving fathers of their children.
> 
> Alimony/Child support: men pay 98% of all alimony/child support payments. The state forces men to pay huge sums of money to women, impoverishing men and making them little more than wage slaves.
> 
> So yes, with the laws listed above, men have lost power over their lives. The legal system does not value men and fathers. The laws have, in a sense, emasculated men.
> 
> How can a man have power over his life and his family when his spouse can legally have him removed from his home at gun point by simply making a phone call, take his children, and make him pay her for it?
> 
> And while men can leave a marriage for no reason too, how many women have to pay their ex husbands for it, or risk being imprisoned if they can't pay?
> 
> So back to the video, while inflammatory, touches on the physical manifestation of emasculated metrosexual men, as well as men losing agency over their own lives because of laws that have been passed that hurt men.
> 
> I would also like to note the profound influence that technology has had on changing gender roles. Without technology, womens suffrage never would've occured, and men would still be needed to fullfill their traditional role of protector and provider.
> 
> And I think that's where many men get lost; men are no longer valued as providers and are in many cases out competed by women. Physical labor, what men are good at, is soon becoming a thing of the past and is looked down upon.
> 
> There is nothing to protect anymore. We live in a safe, soft, protected, sometimes virtual world where the strengths of men are not valued. Technology has eliminated the need for high risk, labor intensive tasks and has in the process, made men less relevent. Perhaps that's why so many men love to be in nature, because it's there where our strengths can be of value.
> 
> Not to mention that practically every commercial on tv depicts the modern white heterosexual male as a weak, incompetent, out-of-shape fool who's completely lost without his smart controlling wife or child correcting his every move.
> 
> So am I whining? Am I complaining? Or do men have legitimate issues worthy of discussion in the Men's Clubhouse? I think they do. And this is not women bashing, far from it, it's open conjecture on what men face in the modern world.
> 
> I intend to start another thread titled The Death of Distinction with another, less inflammatory video, about what I call the androgynization of society to discuss, well, the death of distinction between the genders. I hope everyone will contribute to that as well.
> 
> I'm off on vacation for two weeks so might not see ya'll around for while...


Thank you for this insight into gender relations in your country. I will take notes of this to broaden my knowledge. :smthumbup:


----------



## RandomDude

coffee4me said:


> I would highly recommend that if you have a son (or for your daughter) that you have them train in the martial arts and the art of self defense. That conversation from the Karate Kid is too true, "you train to fight so you don't have to".
> 
> A potential fight then becomes a few swift moves in self defense. The bully is not harmed, he is humiliated (just like his victim was) and your kid does not get suspended. It is tragic that a kid that stands up for himself gets punished in our school system but happens all the time.


Well I have that prepared for the future 

When I was younger I never had the life my daughter lives today, violence was normal to me. I never had formal discipline however, so I was a wild card - hence it's something that I still wonder however whether or not to teach my daughter, as I've never been the type of fighter to fight fair. My daughter if raised irresponsible could cause both me and her alot of grief with the law.

My STBX has learnt a few moves from me but she doesn't have the killer instinct I guess. She continues her training with JJJ which I also recommended as one of the prime martial arts for self-defence - As from my experience after losing enough time and money on frustrating court charges since moving on from my past life however, I learnt how to restrict myself to grappling and controlling the situation, and hence I learnt - and agree with you - that humiliation is much more preferable, without causing any damages that can be used to charge you. JJJ is excellent for that, and I wouldn't mind my daughter joining her mother once she comes of an ideal age.

As unfair as civilised society can be when it comes to its intolerance of violence even in self-defence, there's always loopholes. You can beat up a group of muggers to a pulp but they can file a charge against you for assault and even attempted murder. But when you can disable them and control the situation, it's so much better.

Ah hell you got me talking... sorry >.<


----------



## RandomDude

coffee4me said:


> What you wrote here is exactly the kind of thing I worry about. I can tell my kid to stand up for a himself and others but he has a distinct size advantage, he is a trained fighter and he is stronger than the average kid (benchs over 250lbs) so I am worried that if he fights he will really hurt someone.
> 
> I don't want to be sued, I don't want him suspeneded and therefore he gets kicked out of sports and student government but that's reality. He's been really good at neutralizing bullying (for others) by relying on his self defense.
> 
> I wonder thou if he will be able to control other situations. A friend of his just got into a big fight. I asked what happened, he said his friend's little sister was sent an indecent text by some kid and so her brother beat the crap out of him. GOOD! But I worry given the same situation my son would not be able to control himself and really hurt some kid. Hopefully, they just won't be stupid enough to mess with her. Or maybe I should just tell him to let her handle it, she throws a mean axe kick


Heh unfortunately restraint is an individual trait, one that we all have to learn to accomplish. I never learnt it until I truly had to - I wasn't going to go back to jail not while I had a wife and daughter to take care of. But knowing my temper violent potential I needed to find a way to defend mine and my family's honor without leading to anymore thousand dollar fines. Grappling was my answer  For a good almost 4 years now I've not had to go to court.



> You should have your daughter join her mother, martial arts teaches so many good things to kids besides self defense.


I am considering it, however I have an issue with JJJ itself. But that's a personal thing, I don't like the Japanese act of bowing/on their knees, bad enough I'm accepting my STBX taking my child to church every weekend (and she has friends there), but they are signs of submission in my culture. But either than that, I agree that formal discipline in martial arts sure beats having to train oneself by starting fights on the streets and with mates. Heh, good times

No way will I allow THAT for my daughter however, so I may have to give in again. Besides would be pretty sweet if one day I become too old to defend myself and I see my little girl all grown up and kicking ass! :smthumbup:


----------



## Lyris

My husband was raised by a single mother. He is an amazing man.

I know women raised by single dads. They are great women.

The notion that everyone needs a parent of the same gender to be successful is false. And it can be proved false in about two minutes.

I'm bringing up my daughters to be good, strong people. Gender matters, obviously, but a good person is a good person. 

And I'm sick of women being blamed for single parent households. Men walk away. They are much more likely to walk away, try to get out of child support, see their children rarely than women are. Want to fix it? Talk to men about it, not women.


----------



## that_girl

My dad skipped out on child support for years and years. He walked away from two families (3 kids total).

Moms are single because men walk away. If men are so worried about sons being raised to be men, and girls raised to have good views of men-- they should stick around and not bail when shet gets 'uncomfortable'. I've never known a man to stick around through ANYTHING in my family. But the women sure as hell do.


----------



## ocotillo

Trenton,

The 1970 Mr. Leggs trouser advert is an interesting choice.

I can post current billboard adverts for Voodoo hosiery showing a woman walking on the bare backs of men in stiletto heels.

I can post a recent ad for Diesel Denim showing the same treatment of a man's bare stomach.

Ditto for BeBe shoes.

I can post adverts for Brian Atwood shoes showing a woman using a man's head as a footrest

I can post an advert for So? perfume showing a woman standing on the necks of two men.​
When I chime in on these threads, it's usually to voice consternation over what appears to be a sociatel double standard.


----------



## nice777guy

RandomDude said:


> Heh unfortunately restraint is an individual trait, one that we all have to learn to accomplish. I never learnt it until I truly had to - I wasn't going to go back to jail not while I had a wife and daughter to take care of. But knowing my temper violent potential I needed to find a way to defend mine and my family's honor without leading to anymore thousand dollar fines. Grappling was my answer  For a good almost 4 years now I've not had to go to court.
> 
> 
> 
> I am considering it, however I have an issue with JJJ itself. But that's a personal thing, I don't like the Japanese act of bowing/on their knees, bad enough I'm accepting my STBX taking my child to church every weekend (and she has friends there), but they are signs of submission in my culture. But either than that, I agree that formal discipline in martial arts sure beats having to train oneself by starting fights on the streets and with mates. Heh, good times
> 
> No way will I allow THAT for my daughter however, so I may have to give in again. Besides would be pretty sweet if one day I become too old to defend myself and I see my little girl all grown up and kicking ass! :smthumbup:


The bowing in Martial Arts isn't about submission, but respect. And being humble. Martial arts is all about building your inner strength. No one is asking you to submit - unless of course they've got you in an armlock.

Have never been on my knees during Church. Seems kind of odd to me (no offense intended.)


----------



## Wiserforit

I don't recall being emasculated.

I do see a small minority trying to frame all social interaction with this stupid gender war meme. 

But I am not a member of any "class", and see that you empower these twits by accepting their assertions that there is a gender war going on. 

Most everyone I interact with is an individual and it is surprising to me the amount of political currency given to this meme when I don't see much evidence of it in reality.


----------



## ocotillo

Trenton said:


> Can you post them?


Voodoo Hosiery:











So? Perfume:










Diesel Denim:










Bebe:
















Trenton said:


> It's basically saying if you're hot enough men will be your dogs and these stockings will offer you that. Woah. OK, so I'm not down with this either but Voodoo hoisery is an Australian brand I'd never heard of until you suggested it.
> 
> These ads are more about selling sex and sending the message that a woman's sexual attraction is what will ultimately gain the loyalty and affection of men.


Yeah, I do understand that there is a twisted erotic element at work here (Although it's not my cup of tea ) which does illustrate the dichotomy between sociology and human sexuality. 




Trenton said:


> The ad I posted, and the many like it from that time period and before are more about a woman's overall role which is in the house, dressed nicely, an added accessory, and serving man's needs all around while loving it.


I think that is almost entirely a subjective perception. The examples I've given physically meet the same criteria for objectification and the outrage was pretty much nill. Contrast that with the fact that nobody has forgotten the Mr Leggs ad from 43 years ago. 




Trenton said:


> Either way, I am not saying that women completely switching roles is positive and wouldn't advocate for that. I won't advocate to go backwards either or pretend that in some land that I don't come from women have all the power. It's simply not true.


On this we agree.


----------



## ocotillo

Trenton said:


> Jeebus...
> 
> Oct, outrage was not nill. I can assure you. You are getting into perceptions of what men want vs. what women want and combining it with what women think men want vs. what men think women want.
> 
> It will be muddy and become a very long thread of which I'm pretty sure we'll end up right where we are now.
> 
> Advertising and marketing plays upon the desire to be what we see and emulate that. You'd think at a certain age the majority would grow the F up and no longer be so dependent on that but alas...nope.



I understand completely. Another aim of advertising is to simply be outrageous enough to stick in people's heads.

It's really tough to separate that from everything else.


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> I'd love to see the Stats on what ads work to boost sales vs what ads worked for press that inevitably boosted sales.
> 
> Shades of Grey was such a perfect example of taking a semi-BSDM book that is horribly written and making it mainstream through press and advertising. American Idol and the others that followed send the message that banging on drums and making cool sounds no longer has a place and you must get on stage and be judged repeatedly to even have a chance at mainstream success.
> 
> I think of those ads boosting sales and I want to poke my eyeballs out.
> 
> I am naive in approaching my middle age, a complete product of the time I was raised in which is prior to Craigslist and dating sites. I remember being in a Linux internet relay chat room in my 20's and thinking it was so technically advanced. Now you can tweet from chat, video chat, there's probably a site out there where you can poop and chat and it's applauded by a mass audience of 5,000 fervent poop applauders.
> 
> I have a teen in a case I work on who just hooked up with an older man on Craigslist. She is desperate for love for very good reasons and answered an ad that read "Looking for young girl for good time with older man. Will treat you right."
> 
> Between advertising and the guise of anonymity that can lead to instantaneous and precarious relations it sometimes boggles my mind that so many are anchored at all.
> 
> Basically we see what we are exposed to and often many of us become a product of that exposure.
> 
> It is a very tricky multi-faceted issue that ultimately leaves me worried for future generations, not because of feminism or masculinity. I think we will find we are facing far more vague and insidious enemies to our humanity as we continue.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Dealing with change has left us flat footed. Overwhelmed if you will. Some of it good and some of it bad ... but the real thing is that it is hard to tell which is which these days. 

Anyway. You are absolutley correct.


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> You may have a point. When I look around what I see is individuals limiting themselves, not society limiting them.


So in 1900 it was just women limiting themselves? All in their minds? I see.


----------



## Entropy3000

Lyris said:


> My husband was raised by a single mother. He is an amazing man.
> 
> I know women raised by single dads. They are great women.
> 
> The notion that everyone needs a parent of the same gender to be successful is false. And it can be proved false in about two minutes.
> 
> I'm bringing up my daughters to be good, strong people. Gender matters, obviously, but a good person is a good person.
> 
> And I'm sick of women being blamed for single parent households. Men walk away. They are much more likely to walk away, try to get out of child support, see their children rarely than women are. Want to fix it? Talk to men about it, not women.


Bell curve. There are exceptaions to everything.

Having both parents who show love and respect for one another is optimal.

But we need to factor in the other people in our lives. It takes a village to rasie an idiot.

A young man is much better off if her has a positive male role model. I respect that singke mom's really try, but indeed they must compensate. And while we may know some wonderful people we do not know the struggles they may have had to overcome.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> My dad skipped out on child support for years and years. He walked away from two families (3 kids total).
> 
> Moms are single because men walk away. If men are so worried about sons being raised to be men, and girls raised to have good views of men-- they should stick around and not bail when shet gets 'uncomfortable'. I've never known a man to stick around through ANYTHING in my family. But the women sure as hell do.


BINGO. This is why I say it is a societal problem. This is about the cycle continuing. These things happen over generations.


----------



## Lyris

Well, it was attitudes plus actual laws preventing women from voting, owning property and working after marriage. I don't know of any laws emasculating and marginalising men. And if there are, well, men made them so...change them.


----------



## that_girl

The one show that isn't allowed in our house is "Everybody Loves Raymond." That show irks me to no end.


----------



## Entropy3000

nice777guy said:


> Completely agree that young men need more quality role models. But how can we - as a society - change that?


And this is the most positive thing in this thread thus far. This IS the question we need to address.

First identifying that their is a trend to deal with at all. It is also NOT to blame women or the young men themselves. Indeed men need to be accountable for themselves. But this needs to occur earlier in their lifes than it tends to.

We also do not want to in the name of fixing this issue, create other issues. The answer to this is NOT for example to marginalize women.

Things are changing so fast in our society. I want to say that the laws need to settle out. They still have momentum from a much needed shift. Laws are very much about making sure that children do not become wards of the state. I get that. But this creates many other issues.

So we need to start with awareness.


----------



## Entropy3000

Trenton said:


> I'm talking now. I wasn't alive then so, quite honestly, I have no idea. I like to think (and most likely extravagantly and wrongly so) that even then standing up was a choice. After all, that's how any change has ever happened at any point in history...no?


I am saying step back and look at the big picture. Trends happen over time. In no more accurate to say that young men are the issue themselves than to say young women were the issue themselves. Society does influence ... big time.

Now as you know I am all about looking at different views and you should also know that I am a firm believer in self determination. 

You and I have had this discussion. 

Also now is a very relative term in that there is momentum at work. This is why I feel looking at trends is important. Inertia ....

Anyway, my wife is yelling at me to get back into the living room and watch the 3rd season DVD of the Big Bang.

Please carry on.


----------



## Blonde

Viseral said:


> We see many problems associated with this on TAM, the "nice wife" syndrome being one; a woman who isn't a strong enough to enforce healthy boundaries, and is therefore not respected by men and they [scr3w around]


Oh, is THAT what happened. I was emasculated. :crazy:

Thankfully, I have recovered


----------



## that_girl

Pendulums swing extreme with these things. For a long while, it was a "man's world"...no? Now, with the 60s and all of that, the pendulum swung to the opposite extreme and we are products of that swing...the swings are swift, but more of a growing "problem" (in my eyes). Finding the balance is key, which I believe is happening...but it takes time. I'd like to believe that by the time my grandchildren come into this world, the pendulum will have centered more. Awareness (which we have) and the ability to NOT play into the stereotypical bullcrap is what we have to do in order for a balance to occur. At least that's what I believe.

This goes for any group of people that struggle to NOT be on the bottom. Race, sexual orientation...I mean, for eff sake, it wasn't THAT long ago that it was written in the books that blacks couldn't marry whites in some places and in West Los Angeles, Japanese people COULD NOT buy property in certain areas. Gay people are still fighting the good fight ....because the pendulum is swinging. 

The good news about the swing is that even if it gets extreme, the swing continues and eventually calms down.


----------



## TeaLeaves4

Trenton said:


> OK.
> 
> If, in order for men to be masculine, they require absolute power over their domain (however small it may be) regardless of whether or not this is deserved, earned because it is demanded by nature, then I won't sit idly by while it is doled out.
> 
> If you define giving equality to women as the automatic emasculation of men, you are both a coward and a bully.
> 
> It is the opposite extreme of what led to the need for feminism to begin with. Now we are left with two extremes, and the norm will most likely (as it usually does) be found somewhere within the middle.
> 
> Violence Against Women's Act - ah how you over simplify! As you did with most of your other definitions of the milestones you cited. I work with subset of funding that is dependent on VAWA. Over a billion dollars trickles down to empower action against the sex slave trade as well as abused and neglected children.
> 
> Your argument relies on the one reading it being completely ignorant in order to buy into it, either that or feel that they are victims of an overly feminine society. Nothing could be further from the truth and both requires a dependence on an idea that others are responsible for the individuals choices.
> 
> In this day and age we can still quote law makers saying things like a woman who is being raped should just lay back and enjoy it, girls who are passed out are raped and photographed and their virtue is called into question.
> 
> Oh I could go on and on and on.
> 
> Single parents. Strange but those I know who are single parents are women. Is this not because it is considered a feminine role to care for children? Is it not easier for a man to walk away from his children to begin with because he is masculine?
> 
> Then men biatch about child support and alimony as if maintaining their masculinity requires both the ability to stay out of their children's lives as well as retain all financial gains as their own...to pursue their entitlement to power I presume.
> 
> Back to single parents, to think that a single Mom cannot raise wonderful children is also a spoof. A struggling individual without financial means and community/family support will always have a harder time being a wonderful parent, more likely to get involved with drugs, less likely to get the education for a better job to provide for their family, etc. It doesn't mean they can't be, but it will be harder. Shame on society for ever allowing it to be OK for women with young boys and girls to suffer through this when these children absolutely are the future of our nations.
> 
> Men's egos, choices and entitlements that have been upheld and granted without any actual effort on their part or challenge to their credentials are the essential issue. If men feel they are marginalized it is because they can't perceive women as a group worthy of competition for access to or achievement of the things they, themselves, want to achieve and feel entitled to based upon gender or race alone.
> 
> We won't go backwards. The laws may go backwards, sometimes wrongfully so and sometimes rightly so, but I don't believe you will ever see women dressing up prim and proper and pleading in advertisements for a vacuum as a gift for the holidays or seen portrayed as an animal rug on the floor with a man's foot to her head all the while affairs are rampant with secretaries on the side.
> 
> If you need to go back to the 60's for that and that's what you are advocating for, good luck. I will fight you every step of the way and I know many other men and women who will join me.
> 
> I think of my husband as very masculine. He is strong enough to support me in my en-devours as I do him. Then again he does not see me as a threat but rather as a partner. You get this right in a relationship and men and women can celebrate and embrace their differences. You get it wrong and you end up with unfounded and biased resentments that will eat away at you and spill over into your view of the world making you a victim of your own selfish desires.


Excellent post
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

I do get scared, however, when the rights of women are questioned. Abortion is a big one for me. Whether or not I agree with the process of abortion, that is not my place to take that away from others who would chose to have that procedure. And for male politicians to think it is their purpose to remove that right from women really irks me. Until men can carry a baby in their body, and make all the choices that women make around pregnancy, birth, child raising, etc, they need to stay out of it, IMO.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> It is a very tricky multi-faceted issue that ultimately leaves me worried for future generations, not because of feminism or masculinity. I think we will find we are facing far more vague and insidious enemies to our humanity as we continue.




What we see though is all the evil in the world due to instant media venues. What we don't often see is the decency, as that isn't as voyueristic or sensational. That doesn't mean that this world is different, it's just more public. 

Every time I see things that showcase the worst of humanity, moments later you see something that takes your breath away about us in a positive way. The Mr. Rogers quote has been mentioned many times post the Boston bombings "When I think about all the bad in the world, I remember my mother telling me to instead look at all the helpers. Whenever something bad happens, there are always helpers......many, many,many more of them". 

For me, I think humanity is has it has always been. Good vs. evil and good has won most of the time. I don't fear the future because people have shown time and time again that they are good. Selfless acts, random compassion, embracing total strangers to help, donating time to a worthy cause, truly caring about others. 

As for men vs. women, I firmly believe that 20 years from now this won't even be an issue, least of all a finger pointing game. Two generations will have been fully matured at that point and have children of their own, Gen Y and Millenials. Two groups who have grown up under Gen X parents who were the first to understand the importance of equality. Family courts will finally understand that women aren't just baby makers and caregivers and men aren't just wallets who aren't capable of nurturing their children. Men will have options of being a full time father and society won't look at them as lazy, stupid or lacking ambition. Stay at home moms will no longer be seen as somehow giving the finger to "the sisterhood" because they chose to stay home. Two generations who will have grown up around dual income parents, single income parents, dual parent households, single parent households and it will be normal, not some shame that is carried. 

Those two generations and those after aren't to be worried about. They will have the greatest opportunity this country has ever seen. A place where both sexes work together instead of against each other. Anybody who doesn't see equality between the sexes as something positive will be viewed the way teenagers view Blockbuster Video, CD's and desktop computers ....obsolete. 

It isn't a fantasy either. I see it everyday in my sons and their friends. There is no men vs. women in their life. They simply cannot comprehend this notion that one gender has to suffer in order for another to succeed and they reject it. 

I don't worry about the future at all, just that I hope to be around long enough to see it happen. If I don't, I know that my sons and their friends are not a marginal group, they are the majority.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Entropy3000 said:


> So in 1900 it was just women limiting themselves? All in their minds? I see.


Wow, you know darn well what she was talking about....modern day times. She wasn't talking about women in the 1900's not being allowed the right to their own body, the right to their own children, the right to own any property or the right to vote. 

All the strawmen here voted and you are their King. Wear the crown well.


----------



## RandomDude

nice777guy said:


> The bowing in Martial Arts isn't about submission, but respect. And being humble. Martial arts is all about building your inner strength. No one is asking you to submit - unless of course they've got you in an armlock.
> 
> Have never been on my knees during Church. Seems kind of odd to me (no offense intended.)


I know I know, as I said it's a cultural thing. I never minded it at all when my STBX joined JJJ, she can bow/show respect all she likes. But when it comes to my daughter I'm wary about bowing because I'm raising her differently; she has my people's blood after all.

But as I said, I may have to give in. JJJ is an excellent martial art and I'd rather her learn restraint and discipline that only qualified instructors can teach. But that's later down the track 
She's only turning 5 at the moment, no chokeholds anytime soon lol


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

RandomDude said:


> I know I know, as I said it's a cultural thing. I never minded it at all when my STBX joined JJJ, she can bow/show respect all she likes. But when it comes to my daughter I'm wary about bowing because I'm raising her differently; she has my people's blood after all.
> 
> But as I said, I may have to give in. JJJ is an excellent martial art and I'd rather her learn restraint and discipline that only qualified instructors can teach. But that's later down the track
> She's only turning 5 at the moment, no chokeholds anytime soon lol


Try fencing. All the MMA dudes couldn't hold a candle to a fencer. It's chess with a sword. It isn't random stabbing like movies make it seem. It is a right of way system and only the skilled survive. Your daughter would do well to learn it if for no other reason than it is a noble sport which you seem so keen on. I am none of that. I learned it at 35 and love every moment of it. MMA? Pfffft. 

Anybody on TAM who fences Sabre? Challenge accepted.


----------



## RandomDude

Well to be honest I would prefer my daughter learn something more versatile. Though its true anything can be used as a weapon when the push comes to shove, I've learnt throughout my life it's preferable to hone unarmed techniques rather than armed. Besides weapons cause damage, and in turn leads to court charges. I want her to stay out of trouble, do what she has to do, but stay out of trouble with both sides of the law.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Lyris said:


> Well, it was attitudes plus actual laws preventing women from voting, owning property and working after marriage. I don't know of any laws emasculating and marginalising men. And if there are, well, men made them so...change them.


Houston has a near 80% rate of the mother raising the children in a divorce situation but incredibly it isn't because the courts deem it as such. It is because the father never wants joint custody. He never petitions the court. One could say that it is because courts favour women but in Harris County, Houston, Texas, if a man petitioned the court and wasn't some sort of weirdo, he got joint custody 97% of the time every time. 

As my two dude family law friends said, many men love the name behind their childs name more than the child. Neither of them could understand how a man could not petition but both have seen over 400 cases where men didn't want the actual child raising part. They would rather pay money for the ex to do it, many also skipped out on that part.


----------



## TiggyBlue

RandomDude said:


> Well to be honest I would prefer my daughter learn something more versatile. Though its true anything can be used as a weapon when the push comes to shove, I've learnt throughout my life it's preferable to hone unarmed techniques rather than armed. Besides weapons cause damage, and in turn leads to court charges. I want her to stay out of trouble, do what she has to do, but stay out of trouble with both sides of the law.


You known how to street fight, you could teach her how to look after herself (my grandad and mum were who taught me).


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Try fencing. All the MMA dudes couldn't hold a candle to a fencer. It's chess with a sword. It isn't random stabbing like movies make it seem. It is a right of way system and only the skilled survive. Your daughter would do well to learn it if for no other reason than it is a noble sport which you seem so keen on. I am none of that. I learned it at 35 and love every moment of it. MMA? Pfffft.
> 
> Anybody on TAM who fences Sabre? Challenge accepted.


You can't take a Sabre to school to protect yourself on the playground. They frown upon that...


----------



## RandomDude

I will, but qualified instructors would probably do a better job in the long run. Besides, when I was younger I had to start fights just to keep my edge, my daughter won't have to do that with full contact sparring in martial arts.

Self-defence for me was never just a hobby when I was young, it was a necessity, and it required constant training. Sure, she may learn a few quick takedowns but without continual discipline and training these moves can't be executed by instinct when she'll need it the most. But that's just me, I grew up in a rather unforgiving environment so I'm a little more demanding with combat training.

But that's later, much later, she's still too young. There are other options as well if I finally decide that JJJ isn't suitable. The grappling techniques are sound in JJJ and ironically my techniques mirrors its strategy - I'm no giant but when confronted with one I'll still need to take him down. JJJ evolved out of necessity when fighting armoured opponents such as samurai, so its techniques reflect using enemy momentum and power against him.

But there are things I consider a waste of time; ground fighting. It's worthless on the street, you need to be on your feet, aware and maneuverable especially when fighting multiple opponents. But then again... ground fighting is useful especially for women so if pinned down they can still defend themselves. So hey, JJJ is still an solid option. So far it's the best one.

But as I mentioned, later, I can't imagine my little girl doing any of this at the moment. We play wrestle, but that's about it. Which also makes me wonder about a post on one of the previous pages - how boys were told not to wrestle. What does that make me and my daughter then? Heh


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> The one show that isn't allowed in our house is "Everybody Loves Raymond." That show irks me to no end.


That show pissed me off badly.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> So in 1900 it was just women limiting themselves? All in their minds? I see.


This always happens when we look at a complex, multi dimensional problem from a one dimensional viewpoint.


----------



## RandomDude

nice777guy said:


> You can't take a Sabre to school to protect yourself on the playground. They frown upon that...


Anything can be a weapon, sometimes you'll have to improvise sure but the techniques remain the same. You can be unarmed and effective but if someone brandishes a machete, and you see anything that can be used to defend yourself, any armed technique you learn may just save your life or a few limbs.

So I wouldn't say no to armed martial arts just yet. But yes, unarmed still gets the priority when I think about what my daughter should learn.


----------



## nice777guy

RandomDude said:


> Anything can be a weapon, sometimes you'll have to improvise sure but the techniques remain the same. You can be unarmed and effective but if someone brandishes a machete, and you see anything that can be used to defend yourself, any armed technique you learn may just save your life or a few limbs.
> 
> So I wouldn't say no to armed martial arts just yet. But yes, unarmed still gets the priority when I think about what my daughter should learn.


Mostly just wondering if BrightEyes wears a white mesh mask and brandishes a sword everywhere she goes!


----------



## RandomDude

^ Nothing wrong with that:











Ok anyways, back to emasculation lol


----------



## ocotillo

Lyris said:


> Well, it was attitudes plus actual laws preventing women from voting, owning property and working after marriage. I don't know of any laws emasculating and marginalising men. And if there are, well, men made them so...change them.


That's a fair observation, but when we talk about 'emasculation' today, we're not talking about an oppression of men or victimization of men comparable to what women experienced in previous centuries. That would be absurd.

We're talking about a social phenomenon that developed in the 20th century where the male gender in general and more specifically, the personality traits that are typically associated with the male gender began to be portrayed as outdated, unnecessary and even detrimental to society as a whole. As the OP said, masculinity simply has no value to society anymore. 

It started in our colleges, spread to our schools and in time, it permeated popular entertainment at every level and still does. 

And to reiterate, this is *not* a male vs. female thing. Men have been willing participants in this phenomenon from day one.


----------



## Wiserforit

ocotillo said:


> We're talking about a social phenomenon that developed in the 20th century where the male gender in general and more specifically, the personality traits that are typically associated with the male gender began to be portrayed as outdated, unnecessary and even detrimental to society as a whole.


Just call it the war on men.

But it has far greater media and political currency than among the population at large. The media thrives on controversy so there is a need to manufacture drama where there is none. 

If you believed the media hype over this then you'd be approaching every woman with apprehension: "OMG it's a woman, and it is my duty to represent men in this great historical struggle... should I launch a spear into her heart?"

... and instead, nothing happens. It wouldn't matter if the person were male or female. And women still adore men who exude confidence, power, and poise. 

So it's just weird to me seeing the hype on the one hand and the absence of it as a practical matter in daily life. 

Of course, it might be different in urban Southern California than tucked away in a cabin of interior Alaska with a young Filipina.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ocotillo said:


> .
> 
> We're talking about a social phenomenon that developed in the 20th century where the male gender in general and more specifically, the personality traits that are typically associated with the male gender began to be portrayed as outdated, unnecessary and even detrimental to society as a whole. As the OP said, masculinity simply has no value to society anymore.
> 
> It started in our colleges, spread to our schools and in time, it permeated popular entertainment at every level and still does.
> 
> And to reiterate, this is *not* a male vs. female thing. Men have been willing participants in this phenomenon from day one.


:iagree: fully with the sentiments of your post, especially the part I highlighted and underlined.
What fascinates me on this thread is the inane , illogical ostrich - like
"_ I don't feel emasculated so it does not exist_ " posturing of some male posters.
WTF?

Well I don't live in a society where much discrimination exist...so does that mean that those who feel discriminated against are wrong to feel that way, or that discrimination doesn't exist ?

Lol guys, hear this;
Our government ,in my little country, led by A FEMALE PRIME MINISTER is presently spending hundreds of millions on research and programmes trying to correct the imbalances in our society that exists because of the emasculation of men....


----------



## Caribbean Man

that_girl said:


> Pendulums swing extreme with these things. For a long while, it was a "man's world"...no? Now, with the 60s and all of that, the pendulum swung to the opposite extreme and we are products of that swing...the swings are swift, but more of a growing "problem" (in my eyes). Finding the balance is key, which I believe is happening...but it takes time. I'd like to believe that by the time my grandchildren come into this world, the pendulum will have centered more. Awareness (which we have) and the ability to NOT play into the stereotypical bullcrap is what we have to do in order for a balance to occur. At least that's what I believe.
> 
> This goes for any group of people that struggle to NOT be on the bottom. Race, sexual orientation...I mean, for eff sake, it wasn't THAT long ago that it was written in the books that blacks couldn't marry whites in some places and in West Los Angeles, Japanese people COULD NOT buy property in certain areas. Gay people are still fighting the good fight ....because the pendulum is swinging.
> 
> *The good news about the swing is that even if it gets extreme, the swing continues and eventually calms down.*


:iagree:

My point exactly.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

A great read on this:
The Futurist: The Misandry Bubble


----------



## ocotillo

Wiserforit said:


> Just call it the war on men.


Now that *is* media hype 



Wiserforit said:


> But it has far greater media and political currency than among the population at large. The media thrives on controversy so there is a need to manufacture drama where there is none.


Without minimizing the media's love of controversy, I would say it has far greater traction at institutions of higher learning and among academicians than among the population at large. 

For example, the article, Who Needs Men? is not what I would call media hype. It appeared in a recent (2009) issue of _The Chronicles Of Higher Eduction_, which is a prestigious journal read by university presidents and deans. 

The article asserted that men are useful for building societies, but once societies are built and we enter a 'maintenance phase' it's time for men to step aside and women to take over. Apart from the fact that, "..._eradicating them would be a logistical challenge_", it praises the wonderful place the world would be without men and concludes, "_Sorry, men, but the writing’s on the wall, right above the urinal: The world no longer needs you._" 

My oldest taught a gender studies course on biases in language. Despite the neutral sounding title, it was anything but neutral and that's typical. We obviously don't want to turn back the clock on real social progress we've made, but at the same time, I don't think what we are teaching young people is entirely healthy anymore. 

One only has to reverse the genders in some of these diatribes against men and ponder how socially acceptable *that* would be to realize this. Does this affect day to day life? Well it doesn't affect mine, surely. But isn't the whole idea behind education that it affects the future?


----------



## RandomDude

> The good news about the swing is that even if it gets extreme, the swing continues and eventually calms down.


True, there's just alot of whining in the meantime while the pendulum swings. And then there are those whining about the whiners, who are in a way protesting against the swing.

Meh... I don't know, from what I've seen, manhood is something found on an individual basis. The media/society pressures are there however; chivalry, being a gentleman and all that jazz. But...



> The article asserted that men are useful for building societies, but once societies are built and we enter a 'maintenance phase' it's time for men to step aside and women to take over. Apart from the fact that, "...eradicating them would be a logistical challenge", it praises the wonderful place the world would be without men and concludes, "Sorry, men, but the writing’s on the wall, right above the urinal: The world no longer needs you."


WTF?!
How can such logical fallacies end up being published? Such crap can't be taken seriously - or are they?


----------



## ozymandias

that_girl said:


> Moms are single because men walk away.


...because they choose men who walk away? Because many of the social and economic disincentives for choosing that man (or being that man) have been removed? I assume we aren't talking about divorced moms, right? Because for people who are actually married, the numbers don't support the "men walk away" narrative.


----------



## RandomDude

> Moms are single because men walk away.


I actually mentioned on another thread that many women prefer the single mum's life, however these women end up decieving men, leaving them and then living off child support from multiple ex-partners. Rather despicable behaviour, first time I learnt of it was on Today Tonight when a woman was interviewed in regards to her lifestyle. But it appears more common nowadays


----------



## treyvion

RandomDude said:


> I actually mentioned on another thread that many women prefer the single mum's life, however these women end up decieving men, leaving them and then living off child support from multiple ex-partners. Rather despicable behaviour, first time I learnt of it was on Today Tonight when a woman was interviewed in regards to her lifestyle. But it appears more common nowadays


It happened to me. They don't want no man in there being a husband. They get the kids out of you and then the child support. Other dudes come and go for sex partners. I guess the thrill of it all and not having to be "responsible" to a husband.

They still are somewhat responsible to these friends who come in and have sex with them.

When mine was doing it to me, I was like "whats the difference, you alreeady have a man, who doesn't mind paying the bills and helping out and he's already father". She didn't want to hear that.

Blew my world open, but then again, I accept this is how a good percentage are.

Somehow a husband represents a threat to empowerment.


----------



## treyvion

ocotillo said:


> That's a fair observation, but when we talk about 'emasculation' today, we're not talking about an oppression of men or victimization of men comparable to what women experienced in previous centuries. That would be absurd.
> 
> We're talking about a social phenomenon that developed in the 20th century where the male gender in general and more specifically, the personality traits that are typically associated with the male gender began to be portrayed as outdated, unnecessary and even detrimental to society as a whole. As the OP said, masculinity simply has no value to society anymore.
> 
> It started in our colleges, spread to our schools and in time, it permeated popular entertainment at every level and still does.
> 
> And to reiterate, this is *not* a male vs. female thing. Men have been willing participants in this phenomenon from day one.


Just to get a rise out of you guys. Emasculation is necessary as part of the process required to create a modern day male.


----------



## Wiserforit

ocotillo said:


> Without minimizing the media's love of controversy, I would say it has far greater traction at institutions of higher learning and among academicians than among the population at large.


Absolutely. I worked at one. As a department head I had to deal with affirmative action mandates in a field that didn't have a lot of females. 

The year I applied for college, Title IX happened, which required the same number of athletic scholarships for both men and women. That cost me and others a full ride. We got partial scholarships (and others lost them altogether) after having worked since jr. High to get them whereas the womens' field hockey players were laughing about having a full scholarship dropped in their lap for something they had not even pursued seriously. There was no prohibition on them trying out for football, basketball or wrestling. None of them could make the teams. So how was that discrimination? 

So there are laws that have affected me personally and professionally yet insofar as my interaction with women goes at an individual level - it hasn't mattered. 

A few of the posters here exhibit symptoms of the gender war mentality, but the vast majority seem sensible and pleasant people.


----------



## that_girl

Caribbean Man said:


> That show pissed me off badly.


A wife that hates her husband and thinks he's a moron. I've not ONCE seen a loving interaction between them.

And a husband who behaves like a bafoon and a child...begs for sex...and tries to "get her into bed" even when she treats him like shet.

Yea. NOT allowed in my house. Garbage.


----------



## that_girl

ozymandias said:


> ...because they choose men who walk away? Because many of the social and economic disincentives for choosing that man (or being that man) have been removed? I assume we aren't talking about divorced moms, right? Because for people who are actually married, the numbers don't support the "men walk away" narrative.


My man walked away. My dad walked away (didn't see him for 15 years). My stepdad walked away...

So I dunno.


----------



## TiggyBlue

that_girl said:


> a wife that hates her husband and thinks he's a moron. I've not once seen a loving interaction between them.
> 
> And a husband who behaves like a bafoon and a child...begs for sex...and tries to "get her into bed" even when she treats him like shet.
> 
> Yea. Not allowed in my house. Garbage.



I hate that show its awful issed:


----------



## that_girl

I'd much prefer my kids watch episodes of Roseanne. Family may be a bit "much" but there is love. And a good balance.


----------



## Wiserforit

Shooboomafoo said:


> A great read on this:
> The Futurist: The Misandry Bubble


I didn't read the whole thing, but it is a good example of the over-hyping. This is the central, and leading premise:



> All of us have been taught how women have supposedly been oppressed throughout human existence, and that this was pervasive, systematic, and endorsed by ordinary men who presumably had it much better than women.


I can think of only one poster on this forum who buys into this historical charicature. And yes, she views herself as this grand narcissistic avenger, righting ten thousand years of oppression by being obnoxious on a discussion forum and occasionally holding a little fishing pole. 

But the vast majority in my experience aren't like that, and in over twenty years of college teaching with up to 150 students in a single class, I met more than the average person. Thousands, anyway, just in teaching. 

Self-selection bias has something to do with that. Business, engineering, and mathematics are not like women's studies or social work. But I never spent a single minute in over 20 years on the topic of gender. The only way it ever entered for me was the pressure from the administration to recruit women into my department, and yes to overlook more qualified men in order to get them. 

I see the article is big on television shows but I don't watch much television at all and if I do it is either the science channel or kids' educational programming.


----------



## Lyris

RandomDude said:


> I actually mentioned on another thread that many women prefer the single mum's life, however these women end up decieving men, leaving them and then living off child support from multiple ex-partners. Rather despicable behaviour, first time I learnt of it was on Today Tonight when a woman was interviewed in regards to her lifestyle. But it appears more common nowadays


Today Tonight? There's some quality broadcasting. Come on, RD, you know better than to believe that sensationalist crap.


----------



## RandomDude

Lyris said:


> Today Tonight? There's some quality broadcasting. Come on, RD, you know better than to believe that sensationalist crap.


It only made me aware that it existed - at a very young age. But it wasn't what made it into a reality; are you denying that such women exists? After opening my eyes, there seems to plenty of them.


----------



## that_girl

:rofl:

I never asked for a DIME from my older daughter's father. So...wtf-ever. I take care of my own. I shouldn't have to ask for shet. A father should support. And he did when needed. I haven't seen any money from him in 5 years. Probably never will. That wasn't why I had a child.

With my ex, yes, he'll pay support because I'm keeping up this house and paying the house note. Maybe SOME women like to have children for free money but not any woman I know. That's despicable behavior. I didn't get married for money. But with the budget I'm on, and everything I pay for (everything regarding my living), child support is needed.


----------



## Lyris

Yeah, such women probably exist. In a tiny number. Because if you're having children for the money then you are pretty stupid. 

I've certainly never met one, or heard of one in real life.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Wiserforit said:


> I can think of only one poster on this forum who buys into this historical charicature. And yes, she views herself as this grand narcissistic avenger, righting ten thousand years of oppression by being obnoxious on a discussion forum and occasionally holding a little fishing pole.
> 
> But the vast majority in my experience aren't like that, and in over twenty years of college teaching with up to 150 students in a single class, I met more than the average person. Thousands, anyway, just in teaching.
> 
> Self-selection bias has something to do with that. Business, engineering, and mathematics are not like women's studies or social work. But I never spent a single minute in over 20 years on the topic of gender. The only way it ever entered for me was the pressure from the administration to recruit women into my department, and yes to overlook more qualified men in order to get them.
> 
> I see the article is big on television shows but I don't watch much television at all and if I do it is either the science channel or kids' educational programming.


sir,
May I submit to you that there are different ways of seeing things. Some call it vantage points , some call it perspectives.

Can we as men, really, honestly say that women _have not_ been oppressed / repressed throughout history at different times and in different cultures by the powers that be,men, because of ignorance ie ; that they were thought to be physically inferior?

To say that these things are not true is economizing the truth IMO.
Being a lover of history, I'm very cognisant of the fact that in different times and different societies/ civilizations , women were indeed oppressed.
Because of WWI & WWII , where millions of young men died and the industrial/ economic revolutions ,where machines replaced much of human labour , Western societies were forced to take a second look at women's issues because of necessity. This led to birth of women's rights and gave traction to the feminist movements.

But before theses events, life generally was nasty , brutish and short. For women it was much worse.


----------



## ozymandias

Lyris said:


> Yeah, such women probably exist. In a tiny number.


Agreed. I think the women that RandomDude is talking about who are consciously doing this as a lifestyle choice and working the calculus of spousal and child support _before they get into relationships_ are extreme outliers. When I mentioned it really being women that walk away, my thought was the women who initiate divorce in the US at a ratio of almost two to one. 

I don't think it's because women are, in aggregate, less able to keep their promises than men. I think it's because they respond to incentives just like every other human being. In this case it's "no fault" divorce, preferred treatment in the division of the most valuable marital asset - the children and in some cases confiscatory alimony. Women almost always get a better deal in family court here in the US. It's no wonder that they seem less hesitant to go there than men.

As for the never marrieds (which I read the other day represent over half of births now in the 20-something to 30-something demographic) I think it's a combination of several factors (including lack of social stigma for both men and women) but primarily the constellation of social services available from the state that take the place of a breadwinner. It's an order of magnitude easier for a woman to raise a child "by herself" in this country than it was two generations ago and it would be impossible without taxation and redistribution.

Swinging back around, we've been talking about how women need men less today and about how men seem to (on average) do worse without good male role models in their lives as though these are all social phenomenon that happen in a vacuum. In the US, I think these things are very much the unintended consequences of public policy driven by second wave feminism. This stuff isn't just happening. We are doing it to ourselves at the point of a gun and it's not too late to stop. I think women deserve autonomy just like all humans do. It just needs to be real autonomy that's not at someone else's expense.


----------



## RandomDude

Lyris said:


> Yeah, such women probably exist. In a tiny number. Because if you're having children for the money then you are pretty stupid.
> 
> I've certainly never met one, or heard of one in real life.


It's sizable enough over here, with child support in addition to centerlink/welfare payments they pretty much can self-employ themselves as stay at home single mums. I don't think it's stupid, considering they get away with alot of welfare and it's socially acceptable amongst women - especially when they talk ill of their ex partners, making their situation seem normal and hence no one bothers.

With 4+ kids all from ex partners though and with the woman not working and aggressively collecting child support payments and centerlink it is rather suspicious. Add that to the stories I've read here of people experiencing firsthand women like that; it's DEFINITELY not a "tiny number" 
And DEFINITELY not just a "probability" lol, it's a reality unfortunately. I don't think it's stupid, I just reckon it's immoral, but that's just me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

RandomDude said:


> It's sizable enough over here, with child support in addition to centerlink/welfare payments they pretty much can self-employ themselves as stay at home single mums. I don't think it's stupid, considering they get away with alot of welfare and it's socially acceptable amongst women - especially when they talk ill of their ex partners, making their situation seem normal and hence no one bothers.
> 
> With 4+ kids all from ex partners though and with the woman not working and aggressively collecting child support payments and centerlink it is rather suspicious. Add that to the stories I've read here of people experiencing firsthand women like that; it's DEFINITELY not a "tiny number"
> And DEFINITELY not just a "probability" lol, it's a reality unfortunately. I don't think it's stupid, I just reckon it's immoral, but that's just me.


Random I don't doubt that these women exist because we have something similar down here.
But from what I've seen here they are in the minority, on the fringes of mainstream society.
Like a sort of miniscule sub culture.
Are you saying that ,that is mainstream culture up there?
I doubt it very much.


----------



## norajane

ozymandias said:


> When I mentioned it really being women that walk away, my thought was the women who initiate divorce in the US at a ratio of almost two to one.


Have you considered that those women file because they've been cheated on by their H's or emotionally and/or physically abused or neglected or ?

Why do you assume their marriages are all perfect but the wives file for divorce just so they can take advantage of welfare?


----------



## Northern Monkey

Not because of that but why are divorce rates so much higher now. There is no sociatal reason for a woman to remain married.

None.

It is socially acceptabe, it is supported by western welfare systems.

In divorce especially involving children, women have power and control, far beyond the 50% that equality would suggest is in order.

This remains true when the wife is the one to have stepped outside thier marriage or simply grown bored.


----------



## treyvion

Caribbean Man said:


> Random I don't doubt that these women exist because we have something similar down here.
> But from what I've seen here they are in the minority, on the fringes of mainstream society.
> Like a sort of miniscule sub culture.
> Are you saying that ,that is mainstream culture up there?
> I doubt it very much.


Oh,

It's not a miniscule social club at all. It's pretty large.

For a husband getting into these situations, it would be good for him to know if the wife is already part of one of these groups or that is a majority of what she's seeing. Because if it is so, you have done your job once you planted your seed and signed your child support papers.


----------



## treyvion

norajane said:


> Have you considered that those women file because they've been cheated on by their H's or emotionally and/or physically abused or neglected or ?
> 
> Why do you assume their marriages are all perfect but the wives file for divorce just so they can take advantage of welfare?


Not all. In some sub cultures there are many women who believe that once the guy has impregnated her, his job is done. They don't want a husband.


----------



## ozymandias

norajane said:


> Have you considered that those women file because they've been cheated on by their H's or emotionally and/or physically abused or neglected or ?
> 
> Why do you assume their marriages are all perfect but the wives file for divorce just so they can take advantage of welfare?


I don't. Please read my post again. I think the social safety net aspect is probably most influential in the never married cohort.

And I'm sure there's some subset of those women filing 70ish percent of divorces who are in truly abusive relationships but I don't think it's common enough to account for the massive disparity. According to the USDoJ, DV is thankfully infrequent - http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ipv9310.pdf. It seems like I was reading something recently about data saying women were just as likely to engage in infidelty as men these days. Dunno, you'll have to google that one. The biggest variable for women though seems to be who's more likely to get custody - http://www.unc.edu/courses/2010fall/econ/586/001/Readings/Brinig.pdf. This was the family court thing I mentioned.

Seriously, this idea that its men who "walk away" and break up families much more frequently than women is a myth. The math just isn't there. Its a myth that needs to die.


----------



## treyvion

ozymandias said:


> I don't. Please read my post again. I think the social safety net aspect is probably most influential in the never married cohort.
> 
> And I'm sure there's some subset of those women filing 70ish percent of divorces who are in truly abusive relationships but I don't think it's common enough to account for the massive disparity. According to the USDoJ, DV is thankfully infrequent - http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ipv9310.pdf. It seems like I was reading something recently about data saying women were just as likely to engage in infidelty as men these days. Dunno, you'll have to google that one. The biggest variable for women though seems to be who's more likely to get custody - http://www.unc.edu/courses/2010fall/econ/586/001/Readings/Brinig.pdf. This was the family court thing I mentioned.
> 
> Seriously, this idea that its men who "walk away" and break up families much more frequently than women is a myth. The math just isn't there. Its a myth that needs to die.


I used to be a "blame the man" type of man before. Until I was educated.


----------



## Lon

From my perspective it is definitely a myth that men are the ones who walk out more commonly... of all those I know who have divorced it is about 50/50 male vs female to walk, and about half the time the one to walk is, IMO, justified (ie abuse, receiving end of cheating). But one thing I do notice about all the men is that those who walked are not ones I perceive as emasculated and all the ones who were left were either what I perceived as emasculated or else became so after the separation.


----------



## treyvion

Lon said:


> From my perspective it is definitely a myth that men are the ones who walk out more commonly... of all those I know who have divorced it is about 50/50 male vs female to walk, and about half the time the one to walk is, IMO, justified (ie abuse, receiving end of cheating). But one thing I do notice about all the men is that those who walked are not ones I perceive as emasculated and all the ones who were left were either what I perceived as emasculated or else became so after the separation.


Our sons need to be educated before this happens to them due to ignorance.


----------



## Entropy3000

that_girl said:


> Pendulums swing extreme with these things. For a long while, it was a "man's world"...no? Now, with the 60s and all of that, the pendulum swung to the opposite extreme and we are products of that swing...the swings are swift, but more of a growing "problem" (in my eyes). Finding the balance is key, which I believe is happening...but it takes time. I'd like to believe that by the time my grandchildren come into this world, the pendulum will have centered more. Awareness (which we have) and the ability to NOT play into the stereotypical bullcrap is what we have to do in order for a balance to occur. At least that's what I believe.
> 
> This goes for any group of people that struggle to NOT be on the bottom. Race, sexual orientation...I mean, for eff sake, it wasn't THAT long ago that it was written in the books that blacks couldn't marry whites in some places and in West Los Angeles, Japanese people COULD NOT buy property in certain areas. Gay people are still fighting the good fight ....because the pendulum is swinging.
> 
> The good news about the swing is that even if it gets extreme, the swing continues and eventually calms down.


But if the swing takes generations to settle out we have periods of time where people are abused. Sometimes group A abd somtimes group B and so on. But it does not even out for them. To exaggerate lets say a duration of the pendulum takes a thousand yesrs. We only have a brief period of seeming equality before things head off in another direction. So what I am saying is that we need a more critical damping so that the pendulum varies in a smaller more fair duration. Telling people that things will be fine in the year 3000 is not at all comforting.

Indeed anything that has harmonic motion like a pendulum may or may not settle out. A child swinging on a swing can go higher and higher and only settle out when they decide to stop swinging or ... fall off.

But my real point is that it is not right to marginalize ... anyone. We are trying to adapt these days and it does take time.


----------



## Entropy3000

treyvion said:


> It happened to me. They don't want no man in there being a husband. They get the kids out of you and then the child support. Other dudes come and go for sex partners. I guess the thrill of it all and not having to be "responsible" to a husband.
> 
> They still are somewhat responsible to these friends who come in and have sex with them.
> 
> When mine was doing it to me, I was like "whats the difference, you alreeady have a man, who doesn't mind paying the bills and helping out and he's already father". She didn't want to hear that.
> 
> Blew my world open, but then again, I accept this is how a good percentage are.
> 
> Somehow a husband represents a threat to empowerment.


This is not new at all in the US. A lot of this was going on in the 70s if not before. When I was in the Navy I made extra money being a handyman for a fairly large apartment complex and this was the prevalent theme there. More so than not. Maybe this was just an isolated case. But there would actually be discussion about having more children to up their monthly income. There were few permanent males there. I am not blaming women. I am saying it was a cultural phenomenon that nurtutred this behavior.

I am not drawing any real conclusions from this other than it has been around for a while. It is some number of people playing the system. How big a group this is I cannot speculate. But with divorce rates and with "possibly" fewer people getting married at all on has to wonder about the consequences as to where children get their male role models. If children grow up and have a series of live in uncles while they grow how does this encourage them to be in an LTR and raise children? Someone will I am sure tell me stories of how some of these guys are great men and therefore this is a great environment for kids.


----------



## always_alone

Entropy3000 said:


> This is not new at all in the US. A lot of this was going on in the 70s if not before. When I was in the Navy I made extra money being a handyman for a fairly large apartment complex and this was the prevalent theme there. More so than not. Maybe this was just an isolated case. But there would actually be discussion about having more children to up their monthly income. There were few permanent males there. I am not blaming women. I am saying it was a cultural phenomenon that nurtutred this behavior.


I too have heard of this type of thing happening decades ago. So it's not new. But that doesn't mean that it's common, and I think we need to be careful about assuming that a mom is single because she views men as sperm donors. Sometimes it's the man who doesn't want to be tied down, and views women just as a source of sexual gratification. Sometimes things just don't work out between two people.

It seems to me, there's a lack of quality role models all around. Certainly, we won't find any on TV or in celebrity watching. The Kardashians and "real" housewives aren't offering women anything better than prime time tv gives to men, IMHO.

Frankly, I don't really see the emasculation of men as a widespread problem. Maybe this is just because I'm a women and am relieved to see the blatant and incorrigible sexism against women tempered. Maybe it's because I find it unsurprising that certain masculine traits are less valued in a knowledge economy. It's not like a man can't find a physically demanding job, it's just that for the most part they don't even want them -- or so they say in labour analysis circles.

Maybe it's just because I am lucky in that the men around me seem plenty manly and comfortable in that. I dunno.

I do absolutely agree, though, that the education system is failing our youth, especially boys. And that the sexist anti-male articles posted earlier in this thread are truly noxious. I was dumbfounded by the one in the Chronicles of Higher Education. Unbelievable what passes for intelligent discourse these days.


----------



## Broken at 20

Well, if we look at who people have to look at for role models in their life, it is difficult to find one in life. For either sex. 

I work in a grocery store. Promoted from cashier so I no longer get to look at the news stand as much, but who is there?
Kim Kardashian, cheating on her husband Kris with Kanye, and then Kanye leaves her, and she is single, fat, and pregnant. And Kris is trying to divorce her. 
And we have the Bachelor. A guy that had 20 really hot women throw themselves at a single guy, (some born again virgin...) Because that is the greatest way to start a relationship. Having several women throw themselves at you, and you will magically fall in love, and somehow you will both be faithful...


I don't know if I would call it emasculation anymore. 

I think I would call it an eroding of morals and ethics in American and Western Culture.


----------



## treyvion

Entropy3000 said:


> This is not new at all in the US. A lot of this was going on in the 70s if not before. When I was in the Navy I made extra money being a handyman for a fairly large apartment complex and this was the prevalent theme there. More so than not. Maybe this was just an isolated case. But there would actually be discussion about having more children to up their monthly income. There were few permanent males there. I am not blaming women. I am saying it was a cultural phenomenon that nurtutred this behavior.
> 
> I am not drawing any real conclusions from this other than it has been around for a while. It is some number of people playing the system. How big a group this is I cannot speculate. But with divorce rates and with "possibly" fewer people getting married at all on has to wonder about the consequences as to where children get their male role models. If children grow up and have a series of live in uncles while they grow how does this encourage them to be in an LTR and raise children? Someone will I am sure tell me stories of how some of these guys are great men and therefore this is a great environment for kids.


Sometimes when this is what they know and see, they don't leave any room for any other viewpoint.


----------



## ravioli

RandomDude said:


> It's sizable enough over here, with child support in addition to centerlink/welfare payments they pretty much can self-employ themselves as stay at home single mums. I don't think it's stupid, considering they get away with alot of welfare and it's socially acceptable amongst women - especially when they talk ill of their ex partners, making their situation seem normal and hence no one bothers.
> 
> With 4+ kids all from ex partners though and with the woman not working and aggressively collecting child support payments and centerlink it is rather suspicious. Add that to the stories I've read here of people experiencing firsthand women like that; it's DEFINITELY not a "tiny number"
> And DEFINITELY not just a "probability" lol, it's a reality unfortunately. I don't think it's stupid, I just reckon it's immoral, but that's just me.


It's a big problem. If the government has a blip in the welfare system and the "baby mamas" are not getting their EBT vacation checks there is a mob scene.

I don't think a lot of women purposely get a child to be part of the EBT club as in Pre-meditating a get poor-rich govt. scheme, but their is a lot of incentive to do it. So it's basically a rite of passage. Get pregnant, get section 8 housing. Get "guhment" cheese, wic, precious EBT card,( Possibly sell it 70% of the value or use it go gambling with it) free government phone, etc. and call it a day. With flipping the EBT funds you can go to the club and get pregnant by another guy. The guy can be a wife beater and you could possibly move into a better envinroment like a women's shelter and you can get all the free food, snacks and clothes you want, and start the whole process again. Women are provided an automatic safety net.

With this process, you have the government shutting the man out, women usually have the power and resources because the men they encounter usually have little resources. The kids are reared by the EBT mothers and thus you have a process of EBT children growing up in the system, repeating the same habits as their mother.


----------



## treyvion

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, if we look at who people have to look at for role models in their life, it is difficult to find one in life. For either sex.
> 
> I work in a grocery store. Promoted from cashier so I no longer get to look at the news stand as much, but who is there?
> Kim Kardashian, cheating on her husband Kris with Kanye, and then Kanye leaves her, and she is single, fat, and pregnant. And Kris is trying to divorce her.
> And we have the Bachelor. A guy that had 20 really hot women throw themselves at a single guy, (some born again virgin...) Because that is the greatest way to start a relationship. Having several women throw themselves at you, and you will magically fall in love, and somehow you will both be faithful...
> 
> 
> I don't know if I would call it emasculation anymore.
> 
> I think I would call it an eroding of morals and ethics in American and Western Culture.


The "bachelor" represents the economics of the single game with respect to the focal point. You see the single game is a free for all. Of course many of us who have studied these situations time and time again, know for a fact it's not the best way to start a long term relationship.


----------



## doubletrouble

I got through page 5 and figured I'd throw in my two bits...

My parents and grandparents were in a terrible car accident when I was about 3 years old. They all survived the head-on with a drunk (it was the early 60s), but my Dad had brain damage. He still worked all his life, supported the family and is today the finest man I know. But he was/is rather vacant in ways, couldn't get close to him because of the brain damage (or so we in the immediate family have surmised over the years). So my Mom basically raised me. 

My father is a gentleman, and he's Mom's doormat. But my Grandfathers were both MEN and gentlemen who revered their wives, and I looked up to both of them as examples of how exciting it could be to be a good man. 

To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Tell the Truth. Great book, great maxim for a man. 

So raised by a woman, a somewhat blank male role model in the house (although constant and loving), I found other examples/mentors. And that was during the burn the bra years, feminism's rise and so on. Never fazed me. 

Then I married the first wife (I was 19, ugh) and she was a true feminist hippy. Her favorite go-to for men who she didn't like was castration. Since her, I've seen that in many female conversations over 50 years of listening. Castration complex, I started calling it. I avoid women with that attitude about men. I don't believe it's healthy in any way.

But I look at kids today and for them it's real entitlement -- they don't need to do a damn thing and expect the Learjet lifestyle. Someone will take care of me, regardless of what happens. more and more, it's either a single parent (I believe) or not the biological parent in at least one case. this tends to distract the child's raising (my wife was a stepmom for years so I am working off her experience) and causes a rift even in a "complete," nuclear family. 

The nuclear family started to die off when farm folks started building in the suburbs in the 40s and 50s. The family was still pretty nuclear back then, but city life has a tendency to dissipate that somewhat due to so many PEOPLE out there as distractions. 

I have no stats to back up this next one, but it feels like there are far more instances of infidelity in the city (percentage-wise -- due to availability and culture) than in farming country. I grew up in farm country, on a farm, so I'm probably biased and maybe pretty ignorant. But industrialization, suburbanization, de-centralization (it doesn't "take a village" it takes involved parents) all have contributed not only to this perceived emasculation, but gender confusion, looser cultural and social boundaries and even more laissez-faire parenting. 

There's no simple answer to this situation. I once met a woman who was really sick of all the "p***y men" out there so she was interested in me. We met, and she saw an old NRA sticker on my truck. She asked me about it and I said yeah, that's mine. Never saw her again. I figure she wanted a strong doormat....

So yes, some women seem to know what they want, then when it's infront of them, they want something else. Men are that way too. There's no single answer to it, but I agree if things don't start to change, and we can de-popularize "metrosexuality" in men, maybe we can get back to the fair balance of testosterone and estrogen that we all seem to feel was much better two generations or more ago.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"We met, and she saw an old NRA sticker on my truck. She asked me about it and I said yeah, that's mine. never saw her again. 

So yes, some women seem to know what they want, then when it's infront of them, they want something else."



The rest of your post was great, but this part?

I mean, really?

She isn't into guns, so she isn't into a "real" man?


----------



## Wiserforit

Caribbean Man said:


> sir,
> May I submit to you that there are different ways of seeing things. Some call it vantage points , some call it perspectives.
> 
> Can we as men, really, honestly say that women _have not_ been oppressed / repressed throughout history at different times and in different cultures by the powers that be,men, because of ignorance ie ; that they were thought to be physically inferior?
> 
> To say that these things are not true is economizing the truth IMO.
> Being a lover of history, I'm very cognisant of the fact that in different times and different societies/ civilizations , women were indeed oppressed.
> Because of WWI & WWII , where millions of young men died and the industrial/ economic revolutions ,where machines replaced much of human labour , Western societies were forced to take a second look at women's issues because of necessity. This led to birth of women's rights and gave traction to the feminist movements.
> 
> But before theses events, life generally was nasty , brutish and short. For women it was much worse.


Despite your claim about loving history you don't know that much - 

The Wome's Sufferage movement began in the mid-to latter 1800's. You aren't even in the right century insofar as your alleged "birth of women's rights".

Furthermore the implicit meme about "men could vote and women could not" is flatly untrue.

Initially, colonialists like at Jamestown didn't even vote on their council. It was appointed in England. After that it was WHITE men who owned sufficient PROPERTY, rendering all blacks, all Indians, all indentured servants, and the vast majority of men without voting rights. 

Indians were not even citizens until 1924 and Jim Crow laws kept blacks from effective rights until much later than white women in many places. History is far more complicated than the gender war advocates want us to believe.

One of the most insidious things about the meme is pretending that modern men are collectively guilty of these overstated "oppressions" from centuries ago. Ironic too that women constitute a majority of the population and have been electing men to office for about a century now.

I think this was an effort on your part to try shaming me with "history" to support some kind of vague "women had it worse than men" meme.

It isn't that simple, and I prefer getting my history from source material and not anonymous internet posters following popular memes. 

I have empathy for what you are trying to say in a lot of your posts but where we differ, especially on something this far off the mark I can't just ignore it.

My best regards nevertheless.


----------



## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> I mean, really?
> 
> She isn't into guns, so she isn't into a "real" man?


Not ones who grew up on a farm anyway


----------



## Faithful Wife

My husband kills bears and home invaders with his bare hands. Doesn't even NEED a gun!

You guys with guns are all wimps.

















(hee...joke)


----------



## ravioli

Wiserforit said:


> Despite your claim about loving history you don't know that much -
> 
> The Wome's Sufferage movement began in the mid-to latter 1800's. You aren't even in the right century insofar as your alleged "birth of women's rights".
> 
> Furthermore the implicit meme about "men could vote and women could not" is flatly untrue.
> 
> Initially, colonialists like at Jamestown didn't even vote on their council. It was appointed in England. After that it was WHITE men who owned sufficient PROPERTY, rendering all blacks, all Indians, all indentured servants, and the vast majority of men without voting rights.
> 
> Indians were not even citizens until 1924 and Jim Crow laws kept blacks from effective rights until much later than white women in many places. History is far more complicated than the gender war advocates want us to believe.
> 
> One of the most insidious things about the meme is pretending that modern men are collectively guilty of these overstated "oppressions" from centuries ago. Ironic too that women constitute a majority of the population and have been electing men to office for about a century now.
> 
> I think this was an effort on your part to try shaming me with "history" to support some kind of vague "women had it worse than men" meme.
> 
> It isn't that simple, and I prefer getting my history from source material and not anonymous internet posters following popular memes.
> 
> I have empathy for what you are trying to say in a lot of your posts but where we differ, especially of something this far off the mark I can't just ignore it.
> 
> My best regards nevertheless.


Your post had nothing to do with the point he made. He might have been off with the historical timeline, but his overall point is valid. The only thing you did was give a historical description of past history.

Tell us in which way were the oppressions overstated?


----------



## ozymandias

ravioli said:


> Your post had nothing to do with the point he made. He might have been off with the historical timeline, but his overall point is valid. The only thing you did was give a historical description of past history.
> 
> Tell us in which way were the oppressions overstated?


At risk of putting words in Wiser's mouth, I think this was his point:

Throughout much of human history the real distinguishing characteristic of who had security, provision and autonomy was class, not gender. We see suffering through the lens of our own present culture (with its own very specific narrative about the historical treatment of women) so it's important to remember context. The broad middle class is fairly recent development. It sucks that for much of human history most women were property. It sucks that during those same times many men were effectively property too. It sucks to be a subsistence farmer or a wage slave no matter what your gender. It sounds terrible, but angst over gender roles and inequality is a first world problem. We're all sort of privileged to be having this conversation, in a way.

Discussion of how women were abused (as it relates to our own society) during any historical period nearer than three hundred years or so ago just seems like narcissism to me. The take away isn't "look how women suffered". It should be "look how people suffered".


----------



## Caribbean Man

Wiserforit said:


> I think this was an effort on your part to try shaming me with "history" to support some kind of vague "women had it worse than men" meme.
> 
> It isn't that simple, and I prefer getting my history from source material and not anonymous internet posters following popular memes.


Ok Wiser,

I'm giving you one chance to prove your point , that you actually know about women and history, or history itself....
So I'm asking you a simple , direct question.

_Can you post for me one time pre modern history, when a married woman had almost the same rights as her husband or was allowed to work for the same wages as her male counterparts, or had almost the same legal rights as men?_

I'll give you a hint,
It happened only ONCE in recorded history.
If you know the answer to this question, then I hope you can see that it contradicts you assumptions in your last post

But of course the choice is all yours.
You can choose _not_ to answer


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## Caribbean Man

ozymandias said:


> At risk of putting words in Wiser's mouth, I think this was his point:
> 
> Throughout much of human history the real distinguishing characteristic of who had security, provision and autonomy was class, not gender. We see suffering through the lens of our own present culture (with its own very specific narrative about the historical treatment of women) so it's important to remember context. The broad middle class is fairly recent development. It sucks that for much of human history most women were property. It sucks that during those same times many men were effectively property too. It sucks to be a subsistence farmer or a wage slave no matter what your gender. It sounds terrible, but angst over gender roles and inequality is a first world problem. We're all sort of privileged to be having this conversation, in a way.
> 
> Discussion of how women were abused (as it relates to our own society) during any historical period nearer than three hundred years or so ago just seems like narcissism to me. The take away isn't "look how women suffered". It should be "look how people suffered".


I wish I could agree with you but I cannot., because it is not that simple.
My point is that yes, the middle class is a recent development. Historically, tyranny , poverty and feudalism was the fate of the masses, male and female.
However, even among the poor, women still were of a lower legal / social status than men.
If that is not repression , especially in a time like that, then what is?

In all societies/ civilizations, this was not the norm, but for a large chunk of history , it was indeed like that.
I am not saying that modern men should take any blame, but we cannot minimize what was done through ignorance and pretend it never happened.


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## RandomDude

> Can you post for me one time pre modern history, when a married woman had almost the same rights as her husband or was allowed to work for the same wages as her male counterparts, or had almost the same legal rights as men?


I always found women's status rather curious throughout history, amongst my people pre-industrialisation/communism women enjoyed quite alot of rights, due to the importance of women amongst nomadic societies. They could inherit property, divorce, lead and command, and some tribes were even matriachal.

However, once settled in the modern age, our people became like the rest of the world; with women earning less, less rights etc. There's a movement going on amongst our women to retake their traditional rights nowadays. Our men are mostly supportive due to tradition, but others prefer to modernise/westernise to increase national wealth instead of re-incorporating ancient customs.

Unfortunately westernisation gives the good and the bad, the bad being that some women are following after the flaws of western feminism, developing a sense of entitlement, materialism, double standards, and female chauvanism. Sad really


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## Northern Monkey

History can do one.

What does past injustice to one group change or justify regarding injustice or prejudice towards a different group now?

I don't see how it can be argued that in the past women were treated as equals. Same as it can't be argued that all races and creeds were treated equally.

I don't see anyone saying white people should be oppressed now because they oppressed black peple then. Exactly the same now, men shouldnt be marginalised or anythingelse-alised just because men did that to women then.

Should women have equal rights to men? Of course they should, to the largest percentage of modern men it isnt even a worthwhile question.

I think this whole line of arguing takes away from the premise of the thread.

I don't care that so many say they don't see it happening, when so many FEEL and EXPERIENCE it happening.. it is an issue. Emasculation is a problem. Maybe not in all areas and for all men, but it is still there.

I like the rolemodel points that have been raised. There are so few positive role models for either sex from my view. It is a relief to see others think the same.

For males, we have metrosexual pretty boys being touted as the ideal. Young women lap that bullshyt up so young men try to emulate that. Afterall who wants to be undesirable. In so very many cases though, the media perpatrated myth turns out to be way off mark. Women don't actually want a these weird men that are more in touch with their feminine side than the masculine. Turns out in most cases they want an actual man. Not a neanderthal bigted idiot but a man none the less. 

Youg women are given rolemodels that are lacking in morals and loyalty as role models. Role models that are fundamentally imo wrong in their way of life, but they are held up as strong and independent.

These female role models fit perfectly with our metrosexual weak male role models rather well.

When I look around TAM, I take great pleasure in the number of largely happy relationships represented here. Thank the lord they arent all like my marriage was. It has helped me remain grounded and open to the joy of real LTR's. What I see in these relationships for the most part are strong, confident women who have found a man that offers balance not obediance or men caring enough to leave the alpha bs behind and just be themselves. Again without the obediance.

Then there are the men that come here like me. We arrive on the back of a broken marriage where we thought we did everything in our ppower to please our wife. We put them first, we put ourselves last. This is the message we recieve is what we should be done. Much of the time we dont even need to be oppressed by the woman as we do it for them. Good little doormats. We do what the media leads us to believe is what women want.. only turns out they dont. They want a an actual man. If they wanted a woman, to be blunt, they would be looking for women instead.

Whose fault is all this?

I tell you who I blame for my emasculation. Myself.

I ate up all the cliches and the bs, in many ways, in my marriage I could have been the posterboy for emasculation and co-dependancy. She gave me shyt sandwiches, I asked for another.

The only person that could help me, was me. Sure I needed support and guidance to even get as far as I have, but I needed to take ownership of it.

It wasnt my wifes fault I was a doormat. It was mine, she simply treated me the way I allowed her to.

People saying the issue isnt there are missing the point.
Those blaming anyone other than themselves are missing the point.

The media puts across messages but if people are strong enough to reject them, the media is as fickle as they come and soon changes its tune. Sadly emasculated men arent strong. Sometimes it takes rock bottom for us to wake up.


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## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband kills bears and home invaders with his bare hands. Doesn't even NEED a gun!
> 
> You guys with guns are all wimps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (hee...joke)


Ted Fight Scene - YouTube


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## RandomDude

> For males, we have metrosexual pretty boys being touted as the ideal. Young women lap that bullshyt up so young men try to emulate that. Afterall who wants to be undesirable. In so very many cases though, the media perpatrated myth turns out to be way off mark.


I found most of these effeminate males are those who hang around way too many women. Amongst men, we tend to shape them up, get them to grow some balls, stop being p-ssies, etc etc. Amongst women, I'm guessing they go "awww", at least here in Australia anyways, guess we all have our different circles.



> Youg women are given rolemodels that are lacking in morals and loyalty as role models.


Correct, something I'm also worried about for my daughter. Especially considering the path my STBX led throughout her life, although she doesn't blame society for what has happened - it has played a part.


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## Caribbean Man

Northern Monkey said:


> I don't care that so many say they don't see it happening, when so many FEEL and EXPERIENCE it happening.. it is an issue. Emasculation is a problem. Maybe not in all areas and for all men, but it is still there.
> 
> I like the rolemodel points that have been raised. *There are so few positive role models for either sex from my view. It is a relief to see others think the same.*



Great post.
I agree with the points raised.
And as TG said earlier on, it's comparable to a pendulum swing.

The motion is simple harmonic but the movement is so rapid that the changes from potential to kinetic energy are almost imperceptible.
Hence many will say that they don't see it.
But like I said before, not because one doesn't see it , means it does not exist.
I have never felt " emasculated", but I always knew such a state existed even though at the time I didn't know the term for it.
I still don't think its something " deliberate ", but just
a by product of the forces of rapid , constant change in Western societies , where moral inertia is viewed as an integral part of its 
*_ progressiveness_. *
And yes I agree with you, the metrosexual phenomena, is the " _scotoma_ " in this regard.


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## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband kills bears and home invaders with his bare hands. Doesn't even NEED a gun!


LOL - Does he hire out? My neighborhood is overrun with urban coyotes right now


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## Faithful Wife

ocotillo...Sure he'll come over and tame them all, then train them to be team dogs to pull a sled for you! He speaks dog, of course. It is all in the Alpha handbook.


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## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> ocotillo...Sure he'll come over and tame them all, then train them to be team dogs to pull a sled for you! He speaks dog, of course. It is all in the Alpha handbook.


Holy sh*t your married to Cesar Millan :smthumbup:


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## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> ocotillo...Sure he'll come over and tame them all, then train them to be team dogs to pull a sled for you! He speaks dog, of course. It is all in the Alpha handbook.


Unfortunately, all dogs are canids, but not all canids are dogs. He is blessed though to be thought so highly of.


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## Faithful Wife

Aw thanks...yep he is pretty admirable.

BTW, that would be really scary, dealing with coyotes!


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## always_alone

Caribbean Man said:


> And yes I agree with you, the metrosexual phenomena, is the " _scotoma_ " in this regard.


With all the hate-on for the metrosexuals, I can't help but wonder how you guys would've fared in the 17th century with the powdered wigs, breeches, and frilly collars. Not to mention the buckled shoes.

Were they not men?


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## Caribbean Man

always_alone said:


> With all the hate-on for the metrosexuals, I can't help but wonder how you guys would've fared in the 17th century with the powdered wigs, breeches, and frilly collars. Not to mention the buckled shoes.
> 
> Were they not men?


Between the ages of 19 - 21 I was amongst the original set of 
" metrosexuals " in our country.
I was a male fashion model , getting my pedicures , manicures , eyebrows and fashionable clothes done free.
My hair was always well done and my face was clean and smooth.
Not even a moustache.

I spent more time grooming myself than pursuing valuable relationships because sex came free with the territory.

Thank goodness I realised soon enough that this lifestyle just wasn't for me. It became even more obvious to me ,when men started hitting on me.


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## john_lord_b3

Caribbean Man said:


> Between the ages of 19 - 21 I was amongst the original set of
> " metrosexuals " in our country.
> I was a male fashion model , getting my pedicures , manicures , eyebrows and fashionable clothes done free.
> My hair was always well done and my face was clean and smooth.
> Not even a moustache.
> 
> I spent more time grooming myself than pursuing valuable relationships because sex came free with the territory.
> 
> Thank goodness I realised soon enough that this lifestyle just wasn't for me. *It became even more obvious to me ,when men started hitting on me*.


Whoa.. RUN brother CM.. RUN!!!


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## Northern Monkey

So err CM, how YOU doin?



Just wanted to clarify when I refer to that subculture disparagingly, cos reading it back, I do use the term metrosexual quite negatively, I don't have anything against that lifestyle choice. It's as valid as any other. The problem is the peddling of this as the norm or ideal in relation to the problem we are talking about.

Having fallen off the wagon and found myself needing to man the F up, I wouldn't want to go all, me man you woman, Neanderthal. 

I am as open to different ideas and cultures as ever. I still dmtry not to take myself too seriously.

To bring up the dreaded alpha beta terminology. I like my beta. It's a strong part of who I actually am. I just needed to find balance. Having done that somewhat I have already noticed a big difference in my interactions with people.

I'm still me, but freeing myself of emasculation, helps me be a better me than I was. Or rather be the real me, cultural programming be damned.


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## Caribbean Man

Northern Monkey said:


> So err CM, how YOU doin?
> 
> 
> 
> Just wanted to clarify when I refer to that subculture disparagingly, cos reading it back, I do use the term metrosexual quite negatively, I don't have anything against that lifestyle choice. It's as valid as any other. The problem is the peddling of this as the norm or ideal in relation to the problem we are talking about.
> 
> Having fallen off the wagon and found myself needing to man the F up, I wouldn't want to go all, me man you woman, Neanderthal.
> 
> I am as open to different ideas and cultures as ever. I still dmtry not to take myself too seriously.
> 
> To bring up the dreaded alpha beta terminology. I like my beta. It's a strong part of who I actually am. I just needed to find balance. Having done that somewhat I have already noticed a big difference in my interactions with people.
> 
> I'm still me, but freeing myself of emasculation, helps me be a better me than I was. Or rather be the real me, cultural programming be damned.


Then we both agree on the same thing.


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> With all the hate-on for the metrosexuals, I can't help but wonder how you guys would've fared in the 17th century with the powdered wigs, breeches, and frilly collars. Not to mention the buckled shoes.
> 
> Were they not men?


I would say, "Yes." From our vantage point the fashions may seem less masculine, but at the same time, questioning another man's bravery, ancestry and military victories, or insulting his wife, children or parents were all good ways to end up on the business end of a dueling pistol or rapier. 

--Not that I think that was a good thing. This period of history was a very violent and cruel time by our standards. 

The method of execution partially depicted near the end of the movie, _Braveheart _was the still the standard penalty for treason against the British crown at the time the American declaration of independence was signed. (In the early 17th century, Guy Fawkes escaped this fate by taking a running jump off the gallows as soon as the rope was around his neck.)

People today look at John Hancôcks's big, flowery signature on the declaration of independence and don't really understand what that meant. These men weren't cowards.


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## BjornFree

that_girl said:


> My dad skipped out on child support for years and years. He walked away from two families (3 kids total).
> 
> Moms are single because men walk away. If men are so worried about sons being raised to be men, and girls raised to have good views of men-- they should stick around and not bail when shet gets 'uncomfortable'. I've never known a man to stick around through ANYTHING in my family. But the women sure as hell do.


I just want to chip in here and tell you that I think its wrong to paint every man with the same brush due to your own personal experiences. Some men would kill to play a more active role in their kids' lives but are denied the right to do so by the courts.


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## Faithful Wife

Pictures.


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## Interlocutor

ocotillo said:


> I would say, "Yes." From our vantage point the fashions may seem less masculine, but at the same time, questioning another man's bravery, ancestry and military victories, or insulting his wife, children or parents were all good ways to end up on the business end of a dueling pistol or rapier.
> 
> --Not that I think that was a good thing. This period of history was a very violent and cruel time by our standards.
> 
> The method of execution partially depicted near the end of the movie, _Braveheart _was the still the standard penalty for treason against the British crown at the time the American declaration of independence was signed. (In the early 17th century, Guy Fawkes escaped this fate by taking a running jump off the gallows as soon as the rope was around his neck.)
> 
> People today look at John Hancôcks's big, flowery signature on the declaration of independence and don't really understand what that meant. These men weren't cowards.


Gripping post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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