# Your Advice and Comments Please



## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Great forum really enjoyed reading it, we are both in our 40’s been together over 20 years married for last two and bit years (it was a long engagement) have one daughter who is away at University 

It’s also a relief to know that I am not the only one in a low sex marriage, like many husbands in this situation I have tried almost everything she has even seen me in tears of frustration. Her usual response is look the other way and refuse to discuss the issue, to her there is no problem, and after reading this forum I can see that this true. I have been the emotional one in the relationship, constantly telling her I love her, dropping her texts, phone calls etc. It’s never worked we normally do it once a week if I am lucky get the usual avoidance tactics, like staying up late (when she said she was tired go figure), even feigning illness. 

I would characterise the relationship prior to February as her being quite aggressive and bossy with me especially in public, I read Athol Kay’s work and decided to put a stop to that right away, I told her in no uncertain terms I would not tolerate that kind of behaviour and up to now she has actually stopped doing it and is a lot more respectful, especially in public.

Decided to work on the low sex part, I have some very minor concerns about possible infidelity especially last year when some Red Flags were slapping me in face, but at the time I did not notice them, up to now I have seen no obvious signs and I have hunted high and low and done some investigation and can find no evidence, although she is borderline OCD and knows when I have been looking so if she is up to anything it will be well covered up now, decided to relax a little on this, if there is anything it will show up, the key is to be aware, from experience of others I know that not every sign is obvious/

I have always been the one to provide the emotional input to the relationship and I am afraid to say that in many respects I have become needy, always telling her I love her, calling her to see how she is, send texts, it’s never reciprocated, in fact she dropped a hint to me the other week about other peoples husbands not calling them at work, so I dropped that one. 

She actually enjoys sex,(although she often claims she has a low libido, but many a night when she comes to bed late I have heard her masturbating, which I don’t mind by the way) but not with me at the moment, it’s getting more infrequent and less enjoyable she just wants to get it over with, her standard line is “are we doing it or what” in a very aggressive tone, I won’t go into all the details for now.

Another problem I notice with her, is that she is completely self centred, I have a better job, with better pay, and professionally qualified and do quite well, but when we both come home at night, she never asks me about my day, but goes on and on about her day, when I try to talk about my day she just looks bored, and then quickly goes back to her day, it’s annoying to say the least. 

So I have decided to turn the emotional thermostat down, a notch or two a day, and have set myself some golden rules, no contact through the day, no Love You text messages, no talk about sex, no innuendo, no touching it’s completely off the agenda as far as I am concerned. No saying I love you no offers of hugs or kisses.

Now the results have been quite surprising, she has actually started hugging me and offering me kisses and telling me she loves me, it’s something she very rarely did before, I have remained quite cold with her, well not quite cold but treating her more as a friend than a wife or lover, I would like to know if this is a pretty standard response and what to expect next, and any other ideas for cooling things off, we both do our fair share of chores around the house although because she is borderline OCD things are never quite right

One last thing, she joked the other week about having a leaving fund, I told her I did not find it funny, she accused me of being over sensitive and it was like walking on eggshells with me, guess what I found real evidence that she is actually squirreling money away and quite a lot, for what I don’t know it could be a leaving fund, it irks me that I pay for almost everything (we do have separate accounts) and she is always pleading that she does not have enough money left from her salary, yet she is putting away nearly £300 a month, I have just paid out nearly £2,000 for a luxury holiday for this summer as well. I thought maybe it was for our daughters forthcoming 21st but she has asked me to pay for a major present. 

I would really appreciate your thoughts and comments, to be honest although we get on well we are more like roommates, and I am not prepared to put up with another 20 years of this


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I would tell her all the things you are prepared to do and be as a husband to a wife. I would tell her all the things you expect in a wife of yours (be direct here: I expect to be treated with respect. I expect you meet my needs for sex with postiive attidude, etc). Then tell her to spend a day or two thinking about whether she wants to live this way. If she chooses not to be the wife you need and accept the husbanding you provide, she is choosing divorce.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hicks,
Sorry but I really don't agree with this. It is way too extreme after 20 years mostly chasing her, and overheating the relationship. 

Blue,
It is now time to lower the financial temperature in the relationship. NO expensive gifts or trips. In fact, going forward you pay for your share of stuff and that is it. Don't discuss it with her, and don't debate it when she complains. AND start tracking her credit card spend/debt because some folks go on a spending spree the year before a divorce and then the "debt" gets split 50/50 by the court. Be very careful of that. 






Hicks said:


> I would tell her all the things you are prepared to do and be as a husband to a wife. I would tell her all the things you expect in a wife of yours (be direct here: I expect to be treated with respect. I expect you meet my needs for sex with postiive attidude, etc). Then tell her to spend a day or two thinking about whether she wants to live this way. If she chooses not to be the wife you need and accept the husbanding you provide, she is choosing divorce.


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

> Blue,
> It is now time to lower the financial temperature in the relationship. NO expensive gifts or trips. In fact, going forward you pay for your share of stuff and that is it. Don't discuss it with her, and don't debate it when she complains. AND start tracking her credit card spend/debt because some folks go on a spending spree the year before a divorce and then the "debt" gets split 50/50 by the court. Be very careful of that.


Blue, please listen to this. You can't fix this through your actions. That is, in terms of treating her as a loving spouse. Fact is, she is setting you up to stab you in the back. She is selfish. Putting back money? There needs to be total transparency in this. If she is planning on divorce, which she is, you have to do some tough things which include almost treating her as a wayward business partner. It sucks, but without her transparency, there is no way for you guys to work together and do what is in the best interest of everyone involved. Time to get your own checking account, sorry man.


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## marriedat19 (Mar 28, 2012)

Bluemoon1 said:


> She actually enjoys sex,(although she often claims she has a low libido, but many a night when she comes to bed late I have heard her masturbating, which I don’t mind by the way) but not with me at the moment, it’s getting more infrequent and less enjoyable she just wants to get it over with, her standard line is “are we doing it or what” in a very aggressive tone, I won’t go into all the details for now.
> 
> One last thing, she joked the other week about having a leaving fund, I told her I did not find it funny, she accused me of being over sensitive and it was like walking on eggshells with me, guess what I found real evidence that she is actually squirreling money away and quite a lot,



Okay reading both of those paragraphs.. it's not good. Her joke was not funny because it was more like a hint. She started liking you more or wanting to be more clingy because you were pushing her away, and she was forced to chase you. Also if she is masturbating in bed and your married and she is in the much control that she wont included you....not good. Why don't you start saying things like. "You masturbate a lot for a girl...:-/" or "your always playing with yourself and rarely want to have sex, you must not be a very sexual woman.." :-/.. If you some what make her feel like she is weird, you are going to get laid a lot lol. Why do guys like *****es, and girls like ****s? Besides from the sounds of it she has had her fair share of being a *****, if any part of you wants to work this out you need to man up and do not call her or text her ever first.. until she starts getting a hold of you, if she doesn't then maybe she is taking her fund and peacing out either way you need to figure it out.


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks for all your replies 

At the moment I am trying to keep an open mind, the thing that rang the alarm bells was her denial about having a leaving account and getting so worked up about me even thinking she would do such a thing, but the other day I had a look in her draw and tucked away in a make-up bag was £200, I think she drew it out on the Monday, it's still there mind you her savings bank is in the middle of town, so she has not had chance to bank it yet, or it could be a gift for my daughter, although I doubt that. By the way we do have separate accounts I have never liked the idea of joint accounts except for the bill paying account, although I am always open and transparent about my money 

I would be interested in anyone's thoughts about the self centerness, and does it indicate anything (apart from being self centred that is) it's just strange how she never seems to ask me about my day or how I am.

I was reading a thread called The Downward Spiral on here, I can tell you that summed up our sex life to a tee! I normally perform oral sex on her and she has an orgasm, and then we have sex nearly every time she has cum, and just before we have full sex she starts talking about some random event or about work, it's really strange it's like OK just get on with this I have had my fun.

The more I see and remember the more strange it gets.

One thing that does bother me about turning down the thermostat is that sometimes I start to feel real guilt and quite uncomfortable about it all, I am a very loving person and it's quite hard for me to do, although I am sticking with it, preferring to see it as an experiment just to see what the outcome will be


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Sorry one more thing, last year (and part of this year) it seemed that she could not wait to get away from me, any excuse to get out of the house, I actually knew where she was most of the time (thanks to her having my iphone most of the time) but that seems to have stopped for the time being.

It was New years Eve that really set the alarm bells off, we had been out to see a band, but left early because they were not very good, I had, had a few drinks (she very rarely drinks, and she was driving) when we got home and celebrated the midnight hour she informs me that she was going to her friends house, because her friends teenage son was having a party and she needed help, I thought WTF! but said nothing I did check and she was there and I have heard all the stories about the party, but still this was New years Eve, and that's when i started looking and she knew I had been rooting, like I said it's all very strange, I will keep you posted


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Just a quick update, she has noticed that I am turning down the thermostat, but is now playing it quite cool, not said she loved me for 24 hrs,no hugs etc, we are still getting on, but I am still keeping it on a purely platonic basis.

The sad thing is the more she holds back now the more it deeply hurts, because I have always been the one to put the effort in, it seems that I could have been keeping something together that may never have meant to be together if you know what I mean.

It still feels rather strange and it is very hard for me after all these years, plus it's all counter intuitive, after all my experts tell you to talk about these issues, tried that 1000's of times to no effect, in fact it sometimes made it even worse

I will keep you posted


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Hi Dean

I wish it were so simple to be honest, but this has been going on for years now, I beleive that I have found out what the problem actually is, and that is I have allowed her to become dominate in the relationship, in fact the more I look at it, it's quite obvious, it was not always like this in fact she is naturally quite submissive, I won't go into details but the sex she liked then she always took the submissive position, but I never realised this until now


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Blue,
> It is now time to lower the financial temperature in the relationship. NO expensive gifts or trips. In fact, going forward you pay for your share of stuff and that is it. Don't discuss it with her, and don't debate it when she complains. AND start tracking her credit card spend/debt because some folks go on a spending spree the year before a divorce and then the "debt" gets split 50/50 by the court. Be very careful of that.


I very much agree with Mem's advice here. I'd put a halt on this lavish trip that the two of you discussed.

This brings me to a point where I would recognize that you may or may not feel comfortable with some additional actions that I would take: She will obviously notice the change. It will likely instigate a serious discussion at some point, too. I would seize this opportunity, when the inevitable conflict arises, to settle the past and set the mutual expectations going forward. Tell her that based on her low-key involvement in the emotional part of the marriage, you have no choice but to take her exit fund joke as her real intent. She's never really given you reason to think that she is dreaming of a 'happily ever after'. I would tell her that it is up to her to take the lead in showing that this is not her intent. Also, her behaviors in the past also make you doubt her fidelity. A condition of staying married will have to be a full admission of what really went on. If she leaves it so vague, thinking that a normal guy will buy in to a rash decision to leave you on New Years' night, then she is mistaken. Just let her know that you can't accept that. You could even accept the truth if there is something to it, but not an open question mark. Really, although she will not know it, even to have her understand that such ambiguous approach to her marriage can lead you to such doubts would be enough. Maybe she was faithful, but she created an environment of mistrust, and can certainly acknowledge this.

There are many ways that you might go about introducing this conflict, but my point is that I think you should deliberately turn this into a resolution event. If you treat it like your expecation is that 'more of the same' will never be acceptable going forward, if there is a 'going forward', I think you have an opportunity to settle things to a degree that gives you peace of mind that your future will be a sincere attempt on her part.

While I didn't have the incidences that would make me suspect infidelity, I did have a very unbalanced approach to emotional fullfillment in marriage. I drove the conflict, almost to the point of divorce just because I could no longer accept the status quo. Not sure if others would be willing to push it to resolution this way, because there is always the risk that she'll choose to leave. I just knew my wife enough to know that she wanted to be more supportive, but just couldn't overcome some of the problems that prevented it. This time brought real healing for us.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

I don't know how you undo 20 years, but good luck. I was really caught by the comments about her masturbating while you ask for more sex, which is a huge red flag and how much you claim to to put her on a pedestal, texts, ILY's, compliments..... You sound way too needy.

Grow a pair and start looking out for yourself. No screaming or crying and being too emotional.

Good that you've started, I just hope it's not too late.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Bluemoon1 said:


> Sorry one more thing, last year (and part of this year) it seemed that she could not wait to get away from me, any excuse to get out of the house, I actually knew where she was most of the time (thanks to her having my iphone most of the time) but that seems to have stopped for the time being.
> 
> It was New years Eve that really set the alarm bells off, we had been out to see a band, but left early because they were not very good, I had, had a few drinks (she very rarely drinks, and she was driving) when we got home and celebrated the midnight hour she informs me that she was going to her friends house, because her friends teenage son was having a party and she needed help, I thought WTF! but said nothing I did check and she was there and I have heard all the stories about the party, but still this was New years Eve, and that's when i started looking and she knew I had been rooting, like I said it's all very strange, I will keep you posted


Hi BlueMoon ~

I'm sorry you are going through this.

I think you should have investigated this party a lot more closely - she could have been meeting someone there.

I think you should continue on pulling back the emotional temp, even though it is hard.

And I think you should also be getting your 'ducks in a row' and be prepared that your wife may really be pulling the wool over your eyes. I think that additional clandestine investigation on her activities is in order. You've got a number of red flags.

Best wishes.


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

From what I have read it's never to late, but to be honest it's all or bust, I have to bear some responsibility for this though and I am trying to fix it, been working really hard in the garden, it was a domain that she had even took over (apart for the really hard jobs) but today I just did what I wanted to do, planted and pruned the way I wanted to, did not ask for her advice or approval, she actually seemed quite happy about it. 

I have also been putting in a a bit more work around the house, this may seem a little beta, but I am doing it without been asked or ordered, and more importantly I am doing stuff my way, if you get what I mean.

We were going to go out tonight, but the band we were going to see has been cancelled, something quite unusual happened, she came into my office put her arms around me, told me there were some good shows on TV tonight and "Perhaps a bit of Love" which is her code word, it's a small thing but she has intimated, I did not say anything (one reason is I know perhaps is a bit of a get out clause) but I did not want to appear to be needy to her, I won't mention it again and wait and see what happens tonight, bearing in mind Saturday is the usual night she likes to have sex with me (or not as the case has been) so small little changes are beginning to show.

One thing that is beginning to happen with this turning down the thermostat, I am beginning to think I wish you would just **** off if you don't want to have a full and proper relationship with me, I am joining the Gym next week, (we get great corporate rates) and plan to visit my parents who live 60 miles away (not a long way by US standards but quite far by UK standards)


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Bluemoon1 said:


> From what I have read it's never to late, but to be honest it's all or bust


The point isn't to save the relationship, it is for you to be healthy, happy and successful. Put your needs first and watch everything fall into place. It is the damnedest thing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blue,
Just to be clear, turning down the thermostat is intended to be VERY different than a 180 because a 180 is intended to address a severe issue with your partner such as they are having an ongoing affair. 

In a 180 you don't let your partner talk about the relationship and generally reject many/most of their overtures until they end the affair. 

Adjusting the thermostat is intended to be a much less extreme approach. For instance if you are always the one saying "ILY" first, stop doing that. Let your partner initiate it and you can say it back the way they normally do with you. So if your normal pattern is:
You: ILY
Her: Me too

The new pattern can be:
Her: ILY
You: Me too

Blue,
From the sound of it your W simply wants you to take a more proactive, leadership role in the marriage. 

At risk of being too graphic it is NOT good leadership, and very beta to have a sexual pattern that primarily goes like this:
- Brief kissing / touching
- You giving her oral til she finishes
- You having intercourse while you allow her to talk about "mundane" stuff

Before you go down on her, pin her down on the bed. Wrestle with her a bit. Overpower her. There are plenty of books that do this subject better justice than I ever will. That said, alpha voice with a light edge to it. Short specific commands. Do this, do that. Tell me you will do whatever I say. Amazingly powerful stuff. 

If my W started talking about her "day" during intercourse, I would slide my finer up to her lips and let her stay busy by entertaining one or two fingers with her mouth. If she persisted I might have to warn her that continuing to talk about that type stuff would result in a spanking. I can multi-task so we wouldn't have to stop the current activity for me to add that in. 

One last thing - you might find that oral - don't finish her - then intercourse and just before you finish - you slide back down and finish her - keeps her MUCH more engaged and intense. 

It sounds as if you likely have a very fixable situation. 

And there is NOTHING to feel guilty about. If she wants more love from you, she can ask for it. You are not freezing her out, you are giving her space to love you back. 




Bluemoon1 said:


> From what I have read it's never to late, but to be honest it's all or bust, I have to bear some responsibility for this though and I am trying to fix it, been working really hard in the garden, it was a domain that she had even took over (apart for the really hard jobs) but today I just did what I wanted to do, planted and pruned the way I wanted to, did not ask for her advice or approval, she actually seemed quite happy about it.
> 
> I have also been putting in a a bit more work around the house, this may seem a little beta, but I am doing it without been asked or ordered, and more importantly I am doing stuff my way, if you get what I mean.
> 
> ...


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

I'm not going to offer you any advice in this situation. I would like to point out two things you wrote though and encourage you to think about them carefully.



Bluemoon1 said:


> So I have decided to turn the emotional thermostat down, a notch or two a day, and have set myself some golden rules, no contact through the day, no Love You text messages, no talk about sex, no innuendo, no touching it’s completely off the agenda as far as I am concerned. No saying I love you no offers of hugs or kisses.


Do you really, really believe that withdrawing from your partner and squelching yourself is a positive move? really? Honestly, if I were to do such a thing and it brought "positive" results I'd be talking to a divorce attorney.

*One last thing, she joked the other week about having a leaving fund, I told her I did not find it funny, she accused me of being over sensitive*
If Carol ever said that to me it would be said once and once only. My response would be very specific.

"The next time you wish to discuss leaving just go ahead and leave because if you don't I will. I am not joking. If I hear this conversation again, we are done. I am committed to this relationship and I need you to be too."

I'm not a huge believer in emotional blackmail. In fact, I dislike being blackmailed in general and it's a boundary I WILL enforce... vigorously. So if you're over-sensitive than I'm about a billion times more sensitive than you about it.

One last point I'd encourage you to think about. It is abundantly clear that your partner is not happy or satisfied in your relationship. Do you know why? If not, I'd encourage you to find out.

Personally, I don't know anywhere near enough about the life circumstances of both of you to comment on the money angle. You earn more. You contribute more. She uses some of what you contribute to pad a safety nest for herself (not an entirely bad thing and something I'd want Carol to do if she felt the need to). Honestly I'm guessing that money is a red herring in this discussion. I'm more interested in why both of you are not meeting each other's needs and whether that is fixable or not.

~Jeff


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Blue,
> Just to be clear, turning down the thermostat is intended to be VERY different than a 180 because a 180 is intended to address a severe issue with your partner such as they are having an ongoing affair.
> 
> In a 180 you don't let your partner talk about the relationship and generally reject many/most of their overtures until they end the affair.
> ...


Mem11363..... ILY but c'mon, now you have expanded from relationship advice to hardcore sex advice...... Really you know everything about each female's anatomy and what works and how?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Question for women*

Do you enjoy intercourse more when you are aroused but have not just cum? 

Given a choice, would you rather option A, or option B.
A. After some kissing, he heads directly south and gets you off. He then has intercourse with you and finishes fairly quickly. 

B. He is really into the foreplay. He is playful but intense. He overpowers you, is seriously dominant and clearly into your whole body. He heads south to tease you a bit. Then you have intercourse for a while. Before he finishes he withdraws, slides down and gets you off. Then he slides back up and finishes himself. 







Havesomethingtosay said:


> Mem11363..... ILY but c'mon, now you have expanded from relationship advice to hardcore sex advice...... Really you know everything about each female's anatomy and what works and how?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Have,
This is simply a "conditioned response" thing. At least for us, I know that right after she reaches the rapture, my W "can" have intercourse, but it doesn't feel nearly as good as it is before she finishes. 

For the man who is extremely focused on whether his partner reaches the "O", the quick foreplay, long oral, brief intercourse seems like it should be great. And yet I have read many wives complain about that routine.




Havesomethingtosay said:


> Mem11363..... ILY but c'mon, now you have expanded from relationship advice to hardcore sex advice...... Really you know everything about each female's anatomy and what works and how?


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Unbelievable. I believe your wife is a bigamist and is also married to me. I cannot believe how much our relationships compare.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

*Re: Question for women*



MEM11363 said:


> Do you enjoy intercourse more when you are aroused but have not just cum?
> 
> Given a choice, would you rather option A, or option B.
> A. After some kissing, he heads directly south and gets you off. He then has intercourse with you and finishes fairly quickly.
> ...


And what else can we do mem11363 to drive our wives wild in the throws of ecstasy and orgasms in bed????:smthumbup: Please a step by step manual with pictures would be very helpful.......


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Have,
There are a few big differences in how you and I approach sex. And before you reply try to accept that I am collaborating with you,not competing with you. So if you can manage to refrain from including the statement that "you have it much better than most people on TAM" that would be refreshing.

You always or at the least almost always get your wife to finish. And yet, one of your top 3 goals in life is a sex life that you are truly satisfied with. your wife is quite comfortable rejecting you.

My wife gets there less than half the time, during some months less then 1/4 of the time. And yet she is so focused on me and my satisfaction and happiness that I have basically zero anxiety about rejection or frequency or knowing that I am a super hi priority to her. 

You make a lot of sarcastic comments about me, the thing is I know what my wife likes in and out of bed. You seem so busy telling your wife that since she came it must have been good, that you don't really know what it is she likes or dislikes. 

I will say this, you are the one poster who has found a way to lash out at others here in a way that keeps you just below the threshold at which folks get asked to leave. You seem to be a very angry guy. I know why you are angry - but if this is how you approach life, I can see your w not being super turned on....

I wish you would stop compulsively focusing on what you think matters and actually pay attention to what your wife really wants. 




Havesomethingtosay said:


> And what else can we do mem11363 to drive our wives wild in the throws of ecstasy and orgasms in bed????:smthumbup: Please a step by step manual with pictures would be very helpful.......


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Have,
> There are a few big differences in how you and I approach sex. And before you reply try to accept that I am collaborating with you,not competing with you. So if you can manage to refrain from including the statement that "you have it much better than most people on TAM" that would be refreshing.
> 
> You always or at the least almost always get your wife to finish. And yet, one of your top 3 goals in life is a sex life that you are truly satisfied with. your wife is quite comfortable rejecting you.
> ...


I am not angry mem11363, not at all. I rather like your posts and do know you do care for those on this site with issues and at times give some very cogent advice. I however would take a much different approach with my wife if she had a success rate of under 50% (orgasms) and I felt she felt pressured to have sex. I'd have less sex with her and wonder what I have done to illicit such a low success rate. My focus would be and is 100% to ensure she gets there. But that's just me.....

I've read your posts and what your expectations are and when they have not been met what you have done to "rectify" the situation with your spouse. Frankly I think your spouse is telling you something when she is not getting it over 50% of the time.

And no you do not know me at all......


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> You are not freezing her out, you are giving her space to love you back.


Excellent advice! 1++++++++:iagree:


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> My focus would be and is 100% to ensure she gets there. But that's just me.....


....and you would fail. I have been you and I have been Mem - Mem has better sex


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

To quote Winnie the Pooh, "Oh bother". 

I am doing the same stuff which produced a 90% success rate before menopause, before vulvodynia. Before certain meds. 

I have asked what I can do differently, tried a few things differently. She says that what I do "feels good" but does not produce "the rapture". She mentions the reasons I list above. 

This is a topic that discussed beyond a certain point simply makes your partner feel "less than". We don't really talk about it any more. 

As for our "pattern", do you think I don't have moments of doubt? When I question my motives, and hers. Where I question whether her desire is to make me happy or avoid making me irritable. Of course I do. I have no desire to bully someone I love. 




Havesomethingtosay said:


> I am not angry mem11363, not at all. I rather like your posts and do know you do care for those on this site with issues and at times give some very cogent advice. I however would take a much different approach with my wife if she had a success rate of under 50% (orgasms) and I felt she felt pressured to have sex. I'd have less sex with her and wonder what I have done to illicit such a low success rate. My focus would be and is 100% to ensure she gets there. But that's just me.....
> 
> I've read your posts and what your expectations are and when they have not been met what you have done to "rectify" the situation with your spouse. Frankly I think your spouse is telling you something when she is not getting it over 50% of the time.
> 
> And no you do not know me at all......


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> Excellent advice! 1++++++++:iagree:


And most of the advice has been great, I know there is a long way to go, especially when she will not discuss the issues, but I have kept my side, and yes it's very hard for me I am quite a demonstrative person, (although at 6'3 and built like the side of a barn many don't realise it) whilst she is mostly cold and does not show affection in ways that normal people would recognise.

It's hard for me to say this but on deeper reflection it's quite obvious there is no real love for me, as in desire for me, I am going to attempt to talk to her about this, but only the once

Again many thanks for all your input, and thanks to MEM11363 for the thermostat post, just wish I would have known all that years ago


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blue,
Talking to her about this is a terrible idea. No matter what you say - this is what she will hear: "I am angry/sad that you don't love me more, and show me you love me more"

That will make her feel crowded and she will pull back. 

If you do not have the self control to pull back from her for at least a couple weeks, this won't work. That doesn't mean you can't smack her butt, or wrestle with her. It means you stop with all the I love you talk. And all the oth things you do to chase her. 



UOTE=Bluemoon1;658161]And most of the advice has been great, I know there is a long way to go, especially when she will not discuss the issues, but I have kept my side, and yes it's very hard for me I am quite a demonstrative person, (although at 6'3 and built like the side of a barn many don't realise it) whilst she is mostly cold and does not show affection in ways that normal people would recognise.

It's hard for me to say this but on deeper reflection it's quite obvious there is no real love for me, as in desire for me, I am going to attempt to talk to her about this, but only the once

Again many thanks for all your input, and thanks to MEM11363 for the thermostat post, just wish I would have known all that years ago[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Blue, I agree with MEM here... your wife doesn't sound like the kind of person who wants to talk it out... at least right now. She doesn't sound like a talker at all, period. You probably think it's a good idea because that's what YOU desire to do, but if you're going to have any success in this it's all about playing the game the way your wife plays it on you.

I think what you need to do is figure out how to stop chasing her without cutting off contact completely. I like the idea of something like a slap on the butt in passing because it's gesture of "hey, I recognize your presence" but it's not a chase action of "hey I need you."

I think this approach in how you deal with her for a few more weeks will not only start to change her, but also change you in realizing that maybe you can get along yourself with not so much dependency.

Trust me, I'm in the same boat as you with the dependency thing and I'm struggling with it, but my situation in regards as to whom my wife is is completely different than who your wife is. My wife actually WANTS the communication from me, whereas it sounds like your wife doesn't want communication at all. So your dance needs to be different than mine.

It sounds like you really need to "game" your wife a lot more than I do, because of who your wife is as an individual...


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks Guys

You are both right about the talking, don't get me wrong we still get along fine, but she has managed to become the Alpha in the relationship with me being the beta, actually tonight she actually asked me how my day went and has not really talked about her day much, which is an achievement, the thoughts going through my head were like "Ah so I do exist for you" and my life is not just an irrelevance, it does seem like baby steps and I am very impatient for the real results to come, the only result that matters to me is that we move out of this "Friendship" and back into a loving relationship with regular sexual contact.

She has not contacted me again today at work, that will be another small step. 

I am doing all the stuff recommended, I had but on weight last year but I have shifted nearly 40 lb since New year. 

I am prepared to give it some time, because I want the relationship to succeed


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FNG,
It is great that you have learned from your experiences. 

A very high percent of sexually frustrated guys make a point of posting about how they always get their W's off. And then repeat that theme again and again. They seem uninclined to find out what their wives like/dislike about the overall experience. 




FormerNiceGuy said:


> ....and you would fail. I have been you and I have been Mem - Mem has better sex


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> FNG,
> It is great that you have learned from your experiences.
> 
> A very high percent of sexually frustrated guys make a point of posting about how they always get their W's off. And then repeat that theme again and again. They seem uninclined to find out what their wives like/dislike about the overall experience.


And you don't mem11363..... You seem fixated to the point of anger (which you accuse me of being) that I and other do get our wives off...... You have (and it really takes a secure person) admitted your wife wife is satisfied (i.e. orgasms) only 40% of the time. Is this just since menopause? 

But you continue to have relations 2-3X/wk. I guess congratulations are in order. Me I'd rather go 1X/wk and know my wife is satisfied. But that is me......


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> But you continue to have relations 2-3X/wk. I guess congratulations are in order. Me I'd rather go 1X/wk and know my wife is satisfied. But that is me......


You still don't get it, but that is OK. It is a big world, enjoy 1x a week.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Don't get that my wife's enjoyment and orgasm is paramount to me? If she tells me she can only orgasm 1X/wk, then I think I'd learn to live with that? I'd then decide how best to handle the other 6 days in the week. 

Seems like a small sacrifice to me...... I guess this comes back to how important is your wife's orgasm to you?

I think also 1X/wk is reasonable if you want 2-3X/wk (with bonus weeks and special occasions like bdays, anniversary nights out and vacations when the mood is right).

So FormerNiceGuy (nice screen name), I have to ask do you coerce your wife to have sex with you more then she wants where she doesn't have an orgasm, since you are no longer a "nice guy"? 

Jmho
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> So FormerNiceGuy (nice screen name), I have to ask do you coerce your wife to have sex with you more then she wants where she doesn't have an orgasm, since you are no longer a "nice guy"?
> 
> Jmho
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First, thanks for the compliment - I like it too!

Second, the point is not that you need to become a jerk and not care about your wife. As adults, we are responsible for our own sexual pleasure. When you focus all of your energy on "pleasing" your wife - you screw up sex for her and for you. There are lots of books about this, by authors who know more than I do, but I wouldn't suggest you read them, because you already have it all figured out.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Former,
This is how I see it - interested in what you have read and experienced.

When we connect, my goal is to make my wife feel like she is the only person in the universe at that moment. And to physically make it as pleasurable as possible for her. A long, long time ago she told me that sometimes she cannot get to the finish line, but failure to O did not leave her frustated and didn't mean she did not enjoy the overall experience. She then proceeded to prove she meant it. She knows I do my best to please her and also that she won't be subjected to an interrogation if she doesn't O. 

If having less sex would make each encounter better for her, I would do that. It seems highly uncorrelated. We have a simple understanding. If she wants to give herself to me, I take her. If not, then not. As for overtly pity or guilt sex, generally if I perceive it that way I gently beg off, but not always. I am considerate but not perfect, so I have the occasional weak moment.




TE=FormerNiceGuy;659066]First, thanks for the compliment - I like it too!

Second, the point is not that you need to become a jerk and not care about your wife. As adults, we are responsible for our own sexual pleasure. When you focus all of your energy on "pleasing" your wife - you screw up sex for her and for you. There are lots of books about this, by authors who know more than I do, but I wouldn't suggest you read them, because you already have it all figured out.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> First, thanks for the compliment - I like it too!
> 
> Second, the point is not that you need to become a jerk and not care about your wife. As adults, we are responsible for our own sexual pleasure. When you focus all of your energy on "pleasing" your wife - you screw up sex for her and for you. There are lots of books about this, by authors who know more than I do, but I wouldn't suggest you read them, because you already have it all figured out.


Very good example about not answering the question I asked about "coercing" your wife and about whether you'd change your sex pattern to ensure her satisfaction.

Actually mem11363 too does not answer the question. Mem11363 I do respect you and glad you are happy, but sometimes you do seem to think you do have the answer for all "sexless" marriages. Sorry not that simple......


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> ]When we connect, my goal is to make my wife feel like she is the only person in the universe at that moment. And to physically make it as pleasurable as possible for her. A long, long time ago she told me that sometimes she cannot get to the finish line, but failure to O did not leave her frustated and didn't mean she did not enjoy the overall experience. She then proceeded to prove she meant it. She knows I do my best to please her and also that she won't be subjected to an interrogation if she doesn't O.


My wife is the same way in that she loves intercourse but sometimes doesn't want to have an orgasm just because...... 

We worked hard to integrate this concept into our marriage. Early in our marriage, my wife would occasionally engage in duty sex. I didn't enjoy duty sex and would stop midstream and be resentful that she wasn't more "into it". Between my stopping and her own work on herself, she got comfortable being honest about her sexual desires. As she became transparent and consistent, we developed a trusting sexual relationship - this means she knows what she wants and I don't question her.

That was her side of the coin. Once she started taking complete responsibility for her own sexual needs, I had to face my own demons. I was completely focused on her needs and not so much on mine. This was dysfunctional caretaking and a dead giveaway for my codependence. Importantly, my focus on her sexual needs was suffocating her sexually. 

I was not comfortable with my more aggressive sexual urges and had plenty of reasons (dysfunctional to be sure) to not want to share myself sexually. At the core was a fear of her rejecting me. The script goes something like "if I am a great lover because I always get my partner off sexually, then she will not notice that I am (insert insecurity - too fat, too skinny, balding, hairy, etc).

I also had an active fantasy life, viewed some porn and masturbated too frequently in an unhealthy way. I quit porn, masturbation and fantasy and worked on my mental health. For what it is worth, I don't miss any of it.

I have read many books in my recovery, but NMMNG, MMSL, Way of the Superior Man, Arousal & Male Sexuality, a couple of titles on healing from child sexual abuse, Facing Codependence by Pia Mellody, Deepak Chopra & Eckhart Tolle, The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists and the Road Less Traveled are among my favorites.

My cliff notes version is: 

Good sex happens in the middle of a Venn diagram created by two consenting & fully present adults who are committed to sharing their sexual essence with a partner. 

The takeway is that if you aren't bringing your own well developed circle (mental health and presence) and strutting your stuff sexually, then you won't have good sex.

....and we can't get enough


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Very good example about not answering the question I asked about "coercing" your wife and about whether you'd change your sex pattern to ensure her satisfaction


This is the problem with your thinking.

My wife is a grown, mature, powerful woman. I can't "coerce" her into anything. If she doesn't like something, she tells me to stop and I do. Very simple.

I think your view of women, if carefully considered, will prove to be highly misogynistic.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Former,
That's a great pair of posts. Like yours my wife is not coercible. 

Have,
Let me define the delta between us. You are absolutely certain that:
- if female has an O than the sex was good or great
- if she doesn't, than the sex was bad therefore
- all the wives who have sex with their husbands more than weekly (which just so happens to be your frequency), so all the folks having more sex than you, if they don't reach the finish line each time she is being coerced

Well - before I go turn myself in to local law enforcement, I would like to answer one other charge you directed at me. Namely that I am a know-it-all and claim to understand all those sex deprived marriages out their including yours. I make no such claim. I do recommend talking to your partner. And I suggest a topic other than, "isn't it great when I get you to the finish line? Don't you just love, love, love, love that?"





QUOTE=FormerNiceGuy;659332]This is the problem with your thinking.

My wife is a grown, mature, powerful woman. I can't "coerce" her into anything. If she doesn't like something, she tells me to stop and I do. Very simple.

I think your view of women, if carefully considered, will prove to be highly misogynistic.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Have,
This is the first post Ive seen from you about a weekly orgasm quota. Is that the deal for your w? She is only allotted one O per week so ummm you just accept that once a week is your limit sonto speak? 

You sure seem very agitated about other folks having more than weekly sex. I warned you that your intensely competitive nature would be hard to manage. I am seriously starting to doubt that you are even able to hear anything your wife says when it conflicts with your ego / competitive nature. I bet she has told you a lot of good stuff. No worries, I won't ask anymore. After months of asking you questions only to hear the exact same answer each time: my w has an O when we do it, it's great for her the one time per week. I have no idea why the quota is once per week given how great it is for her. Oh well it's a mystery.




Havesomethingtosay said:


> Don't get that my wife's enjoyment and orgasm is paramount to me? If she tells me she can only orgasm 1X/wk, then I think I'd learn to live with that? I'd then decide how best to handle the other 6 days in the week.
> 
> Seems like a small sacrifice to me...... I guess this comes back to how important is your wife's orgasm to you?
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

On our honeymoon my awesome wife asks what my fantasies are.

Mind you - turns out that mine and hers are very similar which is simply luck. But I was afraid she would think me warped and reject the fantasies and me as well. So I stonewalled. Sat there looked her in the eye and lied. Said I didn't have any fantasies.

About 4 to 5 years later she revisited. Only this time it was a different approach. She told me what she liked, and fro
there I quickly opened up. But she was the brave one.




FormerNiceGuy said:


> My wife is the same way in that she loves intercourse but sometimes doesn't want to have an orgasm just because......
> 
> We worked hard to integrate this concept into our marriage. Early in our marriage, my wife would occasionally engage in duty sex. I didn't enjoy duty sex and would stop midstream and be resentful that she wasn't more "into it". Between my stopping and her own work on herself, she got comfortable being honest about her sexual desires. As she became transparent and consistent, we developed a trusting sexual relationship - this means she knows what she wants and I don't question her.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

The sex tips are a revelation to me to be honest, I never really thought about it that way, no wonder she talks about anything but sex after she had orgasmed, just waiting for a chance to test it out 

I guess I am a little pessimistic about the chances for success, there are little signs of warming, we had a kiss before going to sleep last night and she held my hand, on a more negative slant she ordered rather than asked me to do something, I told her I was not a slave or an employee and to not do that, as it annoys the hell out of me, she was actually OK about it,

The phase 2 will begin after Easter with me becoming less available Gym parents etc.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Bluemoon1 said:


> on a more negative slant she ordered rather than asked me to do something, I told her I was not a slave or an employee and to not do that, as it annoys the hell out of me, she was actually OK about it,


Good, a firm response stating a "no-tolerance policy" to barked orders is paramount to your establishing a new alpha role in your relationship. It's possible she was even fitness testing you with this, and it sounds like you passed the test if that's the case.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> About 4 to 5 years later she revisited. Only this time it was a different approach. She told me what she liked, and fro there I quickly opened up. But she was the brave one._Posted via Mobile Device_


That is a beautiful story. Congratulations to you and your wife!


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Bottled Up said:


> Good, a firm response stating a "no-tolerance policy" to barked orders is paramount to your establishing a new alpha role in your relationship. It's possible she was even fitness testing you with this, and it sounds like you passed the test if that's the case.


Yes I think it may have been, it's funny when you start to be aware of things how much you actually start to notice! And boy am I noticing a lot of stuff that pasted under the radar before


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Bluemoon1 said:


> I guess I am a little pessimistic about the chances for success, there are little signs of warming, we had a kiss before going to sleep last night and she held my hand, on a more negative slant she ordered rather than asked me to do something, I told her I was not a slave or an employee and to not do that, as it annoys the hell out of me, she was actually OK about it,
> 
> The phase 2 will begin after Easter with me becoming less available Gym parents etc.


You can't control the outcome and the more you try, the less likely you will be successful. You control exactly one person in the world - you. Be the best puppeteer you can be

One of the concepts I found very helpful was "detaching the emotional hose". It sounds like you are currently wired to notice and react to every mood swing of your wife. 

You must detach. Go work out, do a hobby, whatever. Her mood doesn't concern you. If she wants help processing something, she can ask and you can offer your advice, BUT DON"T MAKE THE PROBLEM YOUR OWN. Otherwise, you are moving forward with your life, setting goals and achieving them.

Remember, this isn't a game. You are trying to be the best you for you and every thing you do in your life gets run through that filter. 

Hang in there, you are doing just fine.


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks FNG,I needed to hear that tonight


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blue,
Your wife is comfortable with the way things were. She likes having a high degree of control over your emotional state and your behavior. As you separate yourself she is going to attempt to exert control. If she can't control your behavior she will try to show both of you that she can control your emotional state. Expect her to provoke you repeatedly in an attempt to maintain the status quo. You need to find out what causes her anxiety and use that knowledge to shape her behavior.

My wife rarely fitness tests me because she loves me and because my reaction to such tests is awkward for her. Sometimes I completely ignore what she says and then ignore her for a while. Sometimes I use humor. Either way I do not allow her to provoke me to the point where I become the bad guy and have to apologize. One classic response is: would you be ok if I did that to you? And if she goes into lawyer mode and attempts some explanation as to why what she did was justified, just be silent and don't interrupt. When she finishes just smile and shake your head as if she just said the dumbest thing you ever heard. But don't speak. And when she pokes at you again, just shake your head and walk away. Go to te gym or run an errand. Being answer your phone if she calls. This is hard core boundary enforcement. It conveys your determinationto be treated fairly. 

My wife and I resolve everything. There is no "jumping over" bad behavior. If one of us breaches, we apologize. 

I have a list somewhere of common bad behaviors / fitness tests. If you like I will post it for you.

UOTE=Bluemoon1;660195]Thanks FNG,I needed to hear that tonight[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Former,
This was REALLY hard for me to learn how to do. But I was determined. From what I read and what I experienced, my inability to do this was hurting me, her and us. 

So when she tried to get me riled up, I used a variety of tactics to get her to realize it wasn't working. Humor where possible and when it wasn't I would emotionally withdraw because I don't like being poked at. 

And for the common situations where she was just having a bad day, I realized that most of the time it had nothing at all to do with me. So when I saw she was upset, instead of getting anxious I focused on being calm. 

And then I would ask, listen and empathize. I did not problem solve at all. At the right moment I would give her a big, comforting hug and just quietly hold her. And the very last thing I would do is look her in the eye and ask "Is there anything I can do?" 






FormerNiceGuy said:


> You can't control the outcome and the more you try, the less likely you will be successful. You control exactly one person in the world - you. Be the best puppeteer you can be
> 
> One of the concepts I found very helpful was "detaching the emotional hose". It sounds like you are currently wired to notice and react to every mood swing of your wife.
> 
> ...


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