# Is this an affair fog?



## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Hello everyone, 

I am a long time lurker, and have finally gotten the courage to write. 

I have been with my husband for 18 years (we are high school sweethearts). We got married five years ago. 

*January 27, 2014:* I discovered the name of a psychologist on his cell phone. I asked him about it, and was stunned when he said "Because it's been 18 years, I love you and I don`t want to throw it all away" That was the first time he had ever indicated anything was wrong. Our sex life was wonderful, we had not been fighting. He would constantly tell me loves me, and very affectionate. He left 2 days later and stayed at his mother's house. 24 hours after leaving, he was pushing me to sell our house and to get a divorce. So I made an arrangement with him to pay for the mortgage indefinitely. He had his tattoo (with my name on it) redone 72 hours later. 

The reason he gave me for leaving him was this: when we were 18 years old, me and him decided to lie about his level of education (because my family would not accept him) he agreed to and participated in this lie for almost 10 years, never indicating it was a problem. His family openly knew about it, and we never really discussed it again. He said this lie destroyed him, he couldn't respect himself, and that I had forced him to do this and he didn't have a choice. 

After he left, he admitted to me that he had kissed a girl 3 days before he left (at a bar). Four days after he left me, he told me he had slept with her (I saw the hotel reciept, 700$ for one night...second time he saw her). 

*February to March:* After 2 months living with his mother (and having a relationship with her, he moved into a condo. He would text me every second day "I miss you, do you need me to do anything in the house?" I would periodically answer the texts. He made no attempt to see me. Nor would he call me. I finally do 3 weeks of NC. He showed up at my parents house, crying and begging me to come back to him. I agreed, as I loved him. That night he broke it off with the girl (he says). 

*April to May *

In the last month, my husband has shown up at my work and followed me around for an entire day begging for a second chance. Shown up at my parents 3 times begging to try again. He appears sincere, tells me he loves me. And explains that he`s so lucky I'm still willing to take him back. He is very loving. Says he's broken it off with her. I take him back every time. But this lasts at most 5 days, until we fight, or he goes to counseling. Then he says "I can't take what you did to me etc" and goes back to her. He says that it's because I destroyed him with my lie, and his self respect hurt, as is his ego and pride and it has nothing to do with the other girl...that she's a distraction...But I don't believe that. 

He told me the following about her:
She's a secretery
When she slept with him on the second date she said "I'm not usually like this" he laughed and thought to himself "Yeah right"
Eventhough she dresses really skanky doesn't mean she has no morals.
She's like a doll and needs to have every guy's attention 
When he walks around with her, she dresses so sexy that men turn around to look at her. 

At one point, I got so sad hearing about her, that I asked him "why are you always telling me how sexy she is? It makes me feel bad." 

*May 24-25* (during yet another period where he had broken up with me), he had booked a weekend trip with her. I gave him an ultimatum. "If you go with her, it's over, so think about this before you do it". 6 hours before he was supposed to leave, he showed up at my house, begging me to go with him, that he chose me and that he loved me, please come with him. He c called her to tell her it was over. He said she hated him for cancelling 6 hours before their weekend getaway. 

We went away and had a great weekend. On the way back, he stopped to make a key for me, because he wanted me to move in with him right away. He brought me to the condo and showed me around. At that point, I got very very stressed because I didn't know if this is what I wanted. He then got very stressed and said "how am I going to cope with your family hating me?" That night, he asked me to come over after hockey, I told him "Maybe tomorrow"

He wanted to know why I was changing my mind, "I told him it was stressful for me" Then the next morning he was texted me that he wanted a STAT divorce and for me to sell the house... (In retrospect I wonder if he ended having the OW over?)

*May 29* After speaking a lot to his family (who don't recognize this new person, they think he's bipolar due to erratic and rash decisions...that are really unlike him) they suggested it was time to put my foot down, because being supportive wasn't working. 

So I texted him "You have until August to sell the house. I won't pay the mortgage anymore, nor will I pay for upkeep" He knows I love the house, and would fight tooth and nail for it. 

*May 30* The following day, he didn't go to work, and mowed the lawn. 

That night, I went and cleaned out all my things. 

*May 31* Morning after he got a realtor, and cleaned out his things. 

*June 1 *The next morning he called and texted me "I need to speak to you" I ignored him. He then texted my MOTHER that he needed to speak to me and to have me call him. My mother texted back that if it had anything to do with sale of the house or divorce that he could leave the papers with her. 

*June 3 *, he left me a note in the bedroom saying "I filled out divorce papers, please respect my decision" 

I have been no contact for 14 days. I have never begged or pleaded with him to change his mind. (I don't understand the *please respect my decision* 

He is blocked on my cell phone (most of the time) but has not made any attempts to see me. 

I went to a lawyer yesturday and they say he does not have grounds to file for divorce (In our province, 1 year separation needed, or adultery (accusation can only be made by betrayed spouse). In addition, since we went away only 10 days ago, this constitutes a recounciliation, and the 1 year waiting period has been reset!!!!!!

Also, we did 4 sessions of marriage counseling (His request!!!) which went really well. But he would decompensate right after, and then break up with me, and start contacting her. After 4 sessions, he started individual counseling for a few sessions. 

I'm so confused about this erratic behavior. I don't think he has a psychiatric condition, and wonder if this is affair fog? Or major ambivalence about the relationship? He cries all the time (previous to this, he only cried once in our entire relationship). He keeps telling me his mind says he can't forgive me, but his heart loves me and it's driving him crazy. I could probably call him and convince him to change his mind about the divorce, but history shows, it won`t last anyways...and his family feels tough love is the only way to go. 

I'm so hurt about this. I don't want to get divorced. If this is affair fog or infatuation, I'm willing to wait. The divorce lawyer said there seemed to be *instability* on his part and that time would help. 

I'm torn between NC, and continue tough love, and calling him and trying to work it out. Can anyone please give me insight?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

allycat

There is nothing to work out.

It takes two to fix a marriage and your wayward husband does not seem capable.

Tough love is called for. Not just towards him but for yourself as well.

He sounds very confused. But I think you realize that he needs to fix his issues. You cannot do that for him.

Everytime you work on the marriage it just makes him react worse.

The lie about his education is just an excuse.

Let him go. Heal. And go have a great life without him.

You deserve better so go find it.

HM


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Hi HappyMan64,

Thank you for your response. I guess I just needed some insight...because I want so much to understand but I don't. He continually says he's confused and conflicted. From a man I've known my whole life, who has never been conflicted and confused. 

Three weeks ago we went to dinner with my friends. He had never met them before. The next morning he told me that the whole night, all he could think about was what to say when they asked him what he did for a living (because previously he would lie). Then he started crying on the phone, telling me that if he wasn't with me, he wouldn't have to deal with these feelings. The same thing happened in counseling, he started crying when speaking about the lie. 

It's so not clear to me what is happening. Processing it is so hard and painful. At times he tells me that I ground him, but has also freaked out over *insecurity* many times. 

Initially, everyone told me to be supportive while he worked through these things. But now, with him going back and forth, my friends told me to let him go, because it was too hurtful. 

I'm scared that this tough love will be the nail in the coffin for our marriage, as it seems to have pushed him further from me. And I'm not at all willing to give up yet.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

He's so deep in the fog that he wouldn't be able to find his @$$ with two hands and a flashlight.

Oh, and the bullsh*t about you "hurting him" with this lie about his education is exactly that -- bullsh*t. It's a total cop-out.

I realize that you don't want to divorce, but he's done nothing to deserve reconciliation. Right now you're his Plan B, and you don't deserve that. Why are you so determined to undervalue yourself to such a steep degree?


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Gus,

I really do feel bad that we lied about his education. He did that for me and I feel responsible. I just wish he would have said something, but I never thought about what it was doing to his self-esteem/ego/pride. He says she's a secretery and looks up to him, and is proud of him, where as I was ashamed of him. He's told me that he explained the lie to many co-workers (that don't know me) and they feel it is unacceptable that I did that to him. But I really wasn't ashamed. We were young (18 years old!) and we decided together, without revisiting. 

The only reason I don't think it's bull is that he cries all the time when he talks about it! And he keeps saying things like *I'm below you* etc. 


I guess I don't see the point. He was with her for 2 months. He didn't have to come back at all (I never chased after him). He's the one that makes ouvertures, but I've been really weak about taking him back. I mean why bother? You're happy, she loves you, you love her, you have everything you asked for in the separation agreement. Why bother to come back and torture me? 

If I am plan B, why continually break up with the other girl? He's done it at least 5 times. In front of me! 

I don't know. Maybe he's just feeding his ego.. but I spent 1 day with him when he was struggling, and he changed his mind every 30 minutes if he wanted to be with me forever or not!

That being said, now he says he's filled out divorce papers and hasn't contacted me in 4 days, the longest ever...so maybe he's finally made up his mind because of tough love. 

It's just hard to accept considering he asked me to move in 10 days ago.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

allycat0303 said:


> Gus,
> 
> I really do feel bad that we lied about his education. He did that for me and I feel responsible. I just wish he would have said something, but I never thought about what it was doing to his self-esteem/ego/pride. He says she's a secretery and looks up to him, and is proud of him, where as I was ashamed of him. He's told me that he explained the lie to many co-workers (that don't know me) and they feel it is unacceptable that I did that to him. But I really wasn't ashamed. We were young (18 years old!) and we decided together, without revisiting.
> 
> ...


What is his actual level of education? What about yours? And what do the both of you do for work?

Quick question... Where do the two of you live and where are you from? You don't have to answer, just curious based on the "my family wouldn't have approved of him" comments.

Also, you've been NC for 14 days but he asked you to move in 10 days ago? And he contacted you 4 days ago?


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

There is no such thing as an affair fog.

He simply wants cake. The benefits of a wife (as a backup plan) and the thrill of a new affair.

That's not a fog; he isn't confused about anything except how much you will put up with while he strings you along.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

*Re: Is this an affair fo*



TimeHeals said:


> There is no such thing as an affair fog.
> 
> He simply wants cake. The benefits of a wife (as a backup plan) and the thrill of a new affair.
> 
> That's not a fog; he isn't confused about anything except how much you will put up with while he strings you along.


The fog is very real. Scary real, even.

The fog is a contributing factor in cake-eating. It is what allows an otherwise good person to engage in cake-eating, and often they're not consciously aware of it. I've seen it with my own eyes -- multiple times.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Gus,

He was trained as an electrician. He's moved up to being a project manager. 

I'm a Cardiac Surgery resident, finishing my last year. 

We've been together since I was 16, and he has been the rock, and fondation of my career. He has supported me through every step. The week before he left, I was on call in a small hospital room, and he slept on the floor so he could be near me, holding my hand. 

As for the lie, we told my parents he was an engineer (I know, I know its terrible...but we were were young and my parents are crazy) We don't socialize much, and have perpetuated the lie, maybe 1 X year, and the rare social occasions. 

He told me that he was angry even before we were married, and didn't say anything. Then he kissed the girl, and everything inside of him exploded and he lost it. 

Also, he's 35, and I'm 34. 

Thanks for taking time to answer by the way. I appreciate the man`s perspective.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Which of you proposed the lie? Which of you initially told it to your family? How many others have been told the lie?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Allycat

Can I assume you are Canadian because divorce will take one year?

Tough love is needed. You cannot baby a man. Especially a man that is acting like a baby.

Sure the lie about his education was wrong. But that is not the reason he has lied to you and cheated on you.

But tough love takes many forms.

Look up "The 180" by Michelle Davis.

I think this is what you need to get through this trying time in your life.

I encourage you to fight for your marriage. But please realize a marriage takes two.

Two to create it.
Two to fulfill it.
Two to keep it alive.

And yes, two to fight for it.

Keep posting. It gets a little slow around here on weekends.

I wonder why he really feels "beneath" you.

HM


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Not trying to belittle, but are your parents that naive and uninformed or did they think that he was some sort of genius to be an 18 year old Engineer? 

Have you ever discussed this with them and do they now know the truth about the lie and actual education?

I can also see where he would feel bad, as when education is so valued and one doesn't have the expected level it can make the other feel "less" in many ways. My WW had her BA and I only an AS, but I was the better wage earner and provider, but that really meant anything for me and my self esteem, so when the opportunity became available I went back to school and finished my BS (double major) and now feel more adequate around friends and neighbors than before. I can attest hiding that background can take its toll.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Gus, 

I'm all messed up with my timeline

14 days ago he asked me to move in (then changed his mind next day for his mental sanity because he can't handle guilt + stress of my family hating him...he said nothing to do with other girl...I did see him freak out in the car...but I think the girl is involved.)

13 days of no contact (from my end)

4 days since he tried to contact me, and via my mom. 

I don't really remember who proposed to lie..Probably me. It was a long time ago. My parents were told the lie. And at social functions with my work. I would say about 20 people over the 10 years? Not friends or anything. Acquaintances. 

He even made a speech to his family before our wedding to tell them not to talk about his job at our wedding. He did that. Initiated it. I did not mention it. 

When I found out it bothered him, I came clean with my parents. They laughed and said they always known, but it was a long time ago, so who cares....


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Sorry you are here allycat.

If his lack of education (high school drop out?) was such a blow to him there were many things he could have done - in his spare time, a night or two a week for a few months, to improve himself. One is never too old to go back to school, HS, college, grad school, or otherwise. This is a total BS excuse, his way of justifying his affair.

$700 for a hotel room? Sheesh... Penthouse floor?? This just shows he is in a deep deep fog for this woman to spend all that money on her. Again, sorry you are here. Do you guys have kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> If his lack of education (high school drop out?) was such a blow to him there were many things he could have done - in his spare time, a night or two a week for a few months, to improve himself. One is never too old to go back to school, HS, college, grad school, or otherwise. This is a total BS excuse, his way of justifying his affair.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed that there are things that can be done (but without knowing the situation, we can't say for sure that these were viable options at this time in his life. He may have been working long hours to pay for things while she attended University and Med School, so he figured his time would come later). I do know the feeling of inadequacy when it comes to social circles and education, so I can see where it would effect his self esteem and worth, so this I can disagree agree with you on that it is not an excuse or reason for his internal issue.

However, this is never a reason, justification, nor excuse for infidelity. If he is trying to pass this off as the reason he has done what he has done as far as infidelity and cheating then he is 100% wrong. It may, and can, have broken him inside, but he should have fixed himself and not cheated.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr,

No, we just said he was still in school for engineering. And that's it. As I said, when I told my parents this year, they laughed and said they always knew. My Dad IS an engineer. 

Really. We just never talked about him being an engineer with my family.

He used to say things like "You're too good for me", "You're going to leave me for another surgeon" but that was just talk??! I didn't think it meant anything AT ALL. 

I tried to see if something in my attitude was degrading/putting him down, but my brother (Also an doctor, as is my sister) said, "No you always talk to him like you respect him" and he would know as there are a few female doctors who talk to their spouses like they are below them. 

He even told me that I never spoke to him, or treated him like he wasn't an equal, but that the lie hurt his ego and pride, so to respect himself, he HAS to leave me. Even if it makes him misreable, he's proud of himself for standing up for himself.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Sooo... You've been together since you were 16, and you're 34. So, as you said, that's 18 years. But the lie has only been perpetrated for the past 10 years...?

And besides, if the two of you had been together since you were 16/17, what was the point of lying at all? Your parents would have seen him enter the workforce as an electrician. So yeah, they'd have known all along.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

allycat0303 said:


> Squeakr,
> 
> No, we just said he was still in school for engineering. And that's it. As I said, when I told my parents this year, they laughed and said they always knew. My Dad IS an engineer.
> 
> ...


He's clearly got some self-image and self-esteem issues but this (the portion in bold above) is BS. 

What is his actual level of formal education? You said that he's a trained electrician and now works as a PM. That would seem to indicate at least some formal education, certifications, etc. Not that it's entirely important, just trying to understand this more fully from his perspective.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Cheater reasoning is usually along the lines of something like this in cases like yours:

1. An affair is exciting. It's an ego stroke. Ego strokes are good. Viva ego strokes. It's good to be the center of the Universe.
2. An affair partner is a bit of an unknown. They may not be reliable.
3. I have a spouse who is a faithful and reliable known quantity.
4. A. Before I blow up my family and possibly way of life, I need affair partner to commit because I don't want to wind up alone. Alone is not good; nobody to stroke your ego.

or ...
B. I am not interested in affair partner committing. I am interested in carrying on this affair and stringing my faithful partner along as long as possible.

The only real, major variation on this theme other than the two above are the cases when they've engineered a possible soft-landing/escape plan (whether or not it is realistic) and a giant FU to their spouse.


I think you can safely rule out the third case, so that leaves the previous two, and think about what that implies: a conceit that the relationship and whether to end it is mostly in his hands and that he can pull you back in if you think about throwing in the towel, little regard for the trauma being inflicted on you (lack of empathy), and no respect for you except for what you can provide for him.

He's having an affair. He didn't have a stroke or brain tumor. He knows exactly what he is doing.


Look at his actual behavior. The reason it seems confusing is that you have been traumatized, and what he is sometimes tellng you is not consistent with his actions (he's manipulating you).


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Gus, 

What was the point of lying? I don't even know anymore. We thought of it when we were young and stupid, 18 years old, you don`t make the best decisions. 

He never sat down and said "I don't like this. It's hurting me. I don't want to do it." Vaguely in passing, I remember him saying, "I don't like to lie" but that was while I was putting on my coat, and I don't remember it was 5-6 years ago maybe. 

My parents did know. And they didn't care. I can tell you that I don't even remember the last time he said he was an engineer. I think maybe 3 years ago at some doctor function. But I can't even remember. And HE TOLD THE lie on his own. 

Aside from that, he never even told me once before he was unhappy or even had problems with me. At MC, in terms of problems he said "She's shy at my Christmas party" and "She walks off when we fight" And then we talked about the lie, over and over and over again, with the counselor trying to get him to claim some responsibility, or to try and frame it in a way that was less damaging. 

But he keeps saying the same things:
My pride and ego are hurt.
I'm broken and bleeding.
I need to respect myself. 
I didn't have a choice.
She's ashamed of me. 
I'm proud of myself for leaving.
Even if I'm misreable for the rest of my life, I can hold my head high. 

I've heard these exact phrases at least 100 times in the last 4 months.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

allycat0303 said:


> Squeakr,
> 
> No, we just said he was still in school for engineering. And that's it. As I said, when I told my parents this year, they laughed and said they always knew. My Dad IS an engineer.
> 
> ...


I can totally understand your confusion and concern, Having been in the same situation, I can feel for his concerns (his way of handling it was entirely wrong though). 

What you don't understand is when you are in your social circles there is usually educated discussion, not that anyone talks down to another, but he possibly felt inadequate in those situations. With everyone in your family so well educated, he more than likely felt inferior when with them, and worthless as he had to put on an err that he measured up and tried to make his conversation sound intelligent, even if just discussion the latest cartoon or sports event.

I have been in those situations and there was always some comment made regarding, we all have educations so..., we work hard to get our degrees and then..., look at all of us we are grown, educated adults that.... These types of discussions weren't meant to exclude him but he felt they did as he wasn't a member of that exclusive group. I would constantly feel this when with my WW's friend, as they all were teachers and inevitably the discussion would always somehow migrate to how they made less money than other educated groups of people and it was not fair the standards they were held to (I had no education to speak of and made more than most of the group combined, but still always felt inferior). they never talked down or bad about those without an education, but to me I just never felt an equal.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Allycat

See my previous post about the 180.

After the additional details you have shared I think it will help you.

Your husband needs to help himself.

HM


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr,

I guess I understand that... the only thing is that a few weeks ago, he went to Miami with my brother for his bachelor party (along with 4 doctors!!) and they had a blast, not issues at all. If he felt insecure why not then?

Yet he had dinner with me and another couple (doctors) and completely had a breakdown the next day crying because the woman asked him what he did for a living. Literally crying on the phone. If he cried all the time...FINE. But in 18 years, I've seen him cry twice. The first time when his Dad passed away (we were in the room when he took his last breath) and 10 years ago when I was accepted into medical school (because he was so proud of me). 

In the past 4 months, during the first 2 months of separation, I spoke to him 4 times, he cried on the phone 4 times. And 3 times in May, once when we were at a BAR watching the hockey game. I can`t believe that this is all manipulation! What guy cries to manipulate? AT a bar. For no reason?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

^^^^
Your husband is having a mental breakdown.

He is fighting with himself.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

HappyMan64,

The 180...yes, I started that on Thursday by telling him to sell the house. I had resisted all this time. I moved my things out of the house, he retaliated by moving his things out of the house 2 days later. 

When I didn't answer his phone calls, and my Mom told him divorce and real estate papers could be left in the mailbox, he left a note 2 days later that he had filled out divorce papers. 

AND that's with me now knowing (consulted a lawyer) he can file whatever he wants, but there's no grounds for divorce until 8 more months. And because we spent the weekend together, that is called recounciliation, and the waiting period is actually now 1 year as of a few weeks ago.

His sister (she`s been guiding me) says that there have been no consquences to his actions yet, and he knows that no matter what he does, I will always take him back. So I need to show him I mean business. I have NEVER told him he could sell the house, nor has he ever threatened divorce...without getting a rapid response from me (pleading/bargainging) etc. 

But it's escalating with each day I don't react, and I'm very scared. I'm not bluffing about letting the house go, eventhough it kills me, but I absolutely don't want a divorce (at least not a quick one. Especially when he changes his mind so rapidly). 

Bottom line. I'm really scared. I don't want to lose him. I could have handled the back and forth if he just needed some time to work out his issues. I definitely don't want to push him toward a divorce.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

there is NO affair fog...thinking with your deek is no different when you single then when your married...imo of course

it makes BS feel better to chalk up their behavior to some fog state, meaning they know not what they do...bull crap...they know

if it were me, I wouldnt want to be with this doucher anyway...he is nowhere near as vested into your relationship as you are, you deserve better imo


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

happyman64 said:


> ^^^^
> Your husband is having a mental breakdown.
> 
> He is fighting with himself.


Well said. He is likely cycling between the love, respect, and devotion that he feels toward you and _what he perceives to be_ the love, respect, and devotion that he receives from OW. It would seem that he can't bring himself to believe that a doctor -- _from a family billowing w/ doctors_ -- could in any way respect him, especially given the lie that was told and perpetuated. He may feel that said love, respect, and devotion in your relationship is one-sided -- from him to you.

Either way, there's no way for this to work if he's not willing to dump OW on her @$$ and come back to you. Assuming that they work together, this will mean that one of them needs a new job. This will likely be the roughest part of cutting contact for him... If he feels unrespected (or outright *dis*respected, as may very well be the case given the lie) within his own home, and by his own wife, then his job, along w/ OW, are his only two _perceived_ sources of ego kibble.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I would tend to agree with HM64, that something is going on within him mentally and the recent crying incidents is a good indication of
this.

I am not trying to excuse his behavior, as his infidelity has no excuse. It is his awful choice and one he shouldn't have made.

I just state I can understand what he may be feeling internally relating to the "double life" he is leading. I have been doing the same job for years (before and after finishing my degree), but I know that now I feel better about myself since finishing my degree, and at my previous employer, 99% without degrees, when I got mine people treated me differently. I heard lots of well now your educated, etc comments.). 

You would be amazed at the "good times" I have had over the years with everyone else and they would comment about and remember them, when inside I was broken and dying from my shame of not measuring up. I put on a good front, but it does wear one down eventually. He may see you walking away at the Xmas party as you seeking out other intelligent conversation or due to embarrassment??

I see lots of scenes described and all are with other doctors. Which you have only had the title for a few years, so now the difference in education, and possibly in his mind of self worth, is even greater. It is possibly getting more so with being surrounded by only doctors most of the time when in casual social situations. I get the impression that these are the type of social situations you are in most. If you are out with his co-workers, does the conversation, and activities tend to slant differently than when out with yours? Does he seem more at ease in those situations? This could be an indication of things going on within his mind.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Gus, 

*sigh* I can not compete with this girl. I saw a picture, she is pretty. She has facebook pictures of herself in cutoff shorts, bent over a car, with her behind in the air. She looks like those import car girls. 

He laughs and brags that no matter what, she will come running back to him. He told me that he said my name twice when they were intimate, and she didn't leave him. And twice he couldn't perform, and he told her it was because he was thinking about his wife. Is he lying? I don't think so...as not being able to perform is something he would be deeply ashamed of..as he associates it with unmanliness. 

But then again, he treats me badly too, by breaking up with me all the time because he can`t *handle the lie/self esteem*

He breaks up with her by saying "I can't stop thinking about my wife, she's my soulmate" 

It's the most crazy situation.

I used to have this completely normal life. Husband loved me. No other woman involved (Not even as FRIENDS) never broke up or had an issue where he wasn't sure about the relationship. 100% supportive. And now I don`t recognize him, the relationship etc. 

And he's also talking about woman in a disrespectful manner which he has NEVER done before. He called the OW a skank. And a ***** at another time. 

We've had fights before, and the most he's ever said to me is, "You're acting *****y" and I think that's happened twice in 18 years. 

Whoa...getting it all out there, it sounds even more completely crazy.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

You need to protect yourself and do what is best for you before he drags you down his rabbit hole.

He is clearly broken and the best you can do is suggest he get professional help. I realize you have love for him, but he is not the person that you need or is good for you now and distancing yourself is the best for both.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

/sigh

You'll be able to "compete" just fine once she dumps her 35-year-old boyfriend w/ periodic ED and self-esteem issues for a hardcore alpha or really good beta player w/ a reliably hard c*ck and plenty of self-worth.

But then again, why would you settle for her cast-off? After all...

YOU'RE A F*CKING DOCTOR!!!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Oh and, by the way, if she's as "pretty" as you suggest, she likely has plenty of her own self-esteem issues to contend with given that she's opted for your husband.

Let me clarify that statement -- I'm not speaking ill of you. You have a long history w/ your husband and that you love him is to be expected. But it's clearly time for you to take off the rose-tinted glasses, Doc.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr, 

You ask a lot of insightful questions. I actually don`t hang out with doctors a lot. There was a social function once a year which I try to avoid. So he's been there only 6 times, and I stay for 30 minutes, just to say hello, because I don't want to be rude. We spend time a lot with my family. Maybe 1X every 3 weeks, we talk a lot about medicine, but he's known us for years, and he's family...I can't see him feeling awkward. 

I don't socialize with his coworkers, I've been to only 1-2 Christmas parties. I'm quite shy, and I feel he should enjoy himself. He has close friends which come over to our house, they are guys, guys and talk about sports etc. I just listen, but I'm very comfortable with them because I've known them for a long time. 

We don't socialize a lot as a couple. He plays a lot of sports (hockey/baseball/floor hockey) and goes to the gym a lot. I work....We usually like to stay home and watch TV together, order in food. And go out alone to resturants. We're home people. 

Wow. Writing that brings tears to my eyes. I really want my old life back. For the past 4 months, I haven't been with him in that way. It just destroys me inside to think about those simple things I really miss. I would do anything to have that back right now. If giving up my career would be an option, I would do it in an instant.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

allycat0303 said:


> I can`t believe that this is all manipulation! What guy cries to manipulate? AT a bar. For no reason?


 You have been his rock since you both were kids. Although your growing success has hurt his ego (this is why he had to lie about his own career), it is just an excuse for his affair. All cheaters need to have excuses to rationalize their cheating, in order to preserve their own self image. Since all spouses are human, and humans are not perfect, there will always be a reason that a cheater can find to blame their spouse for their affair. In this case he picked this reason. If he did not have this particular reason to blame you, trust me there would be another. You need to stop focusing attention on the excuse, and focus what is really going on.

As a doctor you should research the brain drugs that are released only during the early years of a romantic relationship. No matter what you do as a spouse, these drugs stop being released once a realtionship matures over the years; it is hoped that over time such things as children would have a chance to bind the relationship when the drugs stop being produced. These brain drugs have an effect similar to cocaine and are very addictive. This addiction is sometimes called "The Fog". Since his sexy affair partner is his only supplier, he keeps going back to her to meet his brain drug needs.

What is going on is that he wants both what you have given him in life as well as the brain drugs that the sexy affair partner gives him. That is why he appears bi-polar. He would love to cake eat and have both, but you will not let him. He cries because he cannot have both, just like an alcoholic cries when they cannot have both. He knows that this addiction to the other woman is destroying the life that he has built, but he does not want to give her up. Her being so sexy makes the addiction particularly strong.

There is also a major issue that was about to pop up in your life. You will soon start to make many times what your husband makes, so when you decide to have children, he will be asked to be the stay at home dad. That may not be the role in life that he wants. He sees this. Thus your marraige may not have survived even without the affair. This realization may be why he was open to the affair, as this may have been what is called an "exit affair".

I am sorry that you are here. You did nothing to deserve this. Although not perfect, you sound like you were a good wife. If it was not this excuse it would be another, so stop blaming yourself. I wish you the best of luck going forward. BTW, it is doubtful that you know the full truth as to when the affair first started.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

run plese allycat, save yourself from craziness, and leave him with his skanky secretary so in a couple of years (or less) he will taste the BS side of a relationship.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Gus, 

I would take her cast off 

I'm sorry. I know that sounds completely disappointing. He never had any form of ED when he was with me. Not an issue. EVER. I would say that sex was definitely not a problem. And has he said, after 18 years, it's incredible that he could still want me that much. 

He sounds like a loser I know. He was so honest, dependable, and devoted. I can't even start to tell you what this man has done for me in the last 18 years. He was an incredible person, and now he's like a monster. I don't get it. So I try to rationalize and think *affair fog* or else how could a man change so much? 

And pyshically, he's very good looking, peak physical condition, 6 pack, tattoos. Talking to him, you would never know he has any self-esteem issues. A lot of times during our marriage, he would joke about him being my *trophy husband*... 

His family asks me the same questions "is he bipolar?" "Is he on drugs?" "Are you sure he's not on drugs?" "Brain tumor".

All I can say is he doesn't meet any psychiatric illness, but he's not quite mentally stable. And definitely not himself. Usually happy, relaxed person. Now he's very tense (pulsating vein in forehead) and has developped nervous shaking of his leg when he sits. Smokes all the time (because he says he's nervous). 

Aside from blaming me for the lie, he's also blaming his sister for betraying him by talking to me, and his 17 year old neice for getting invovled (he sent her a text about his girlfriend, and she told me) he's disowned them both..

This is a happy, family oriented guy, who has never had a fight with his family in 18 years.

But maybe this is just how people act in affairs? That's why I thought *affair fog*


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

allycat0303 said:


> Squeakr,
> 
> You ask a lot of insightful questions. I actually don`t hang out with doctors a lot. There was a social function once a year which I try to avoid. So he's been there only 6 times, and I stay for 30 minutes, just to say hello, because I don't want to be rude. We spend time a lot with my family. Maybe 1X every 3 weeks, *we talk a lot about medicine, but he's known us for years, and he's family...I can't see him feeling awkward. *
> 
> ...


1st, don't give up your life and career for him, as he is broken inside and if he ever is fixed and you two are still together he will be devastated when he realizes the damage he has done (not just the M, but to your career and life in general).

The bold points are the ones that bother me most.

He has stated the lie you two have concocted and perpetuated to make him feel accepted and be a part of your family is killing him. Yet you think that spending the time around them and talking about things that he is not educated on nor aware of wouldn't make him feel uncomfortable or awkward?? I just can't understand how you can think this given the past and everything recently revealed. It almost feels like you are not truly in touch with him (nor is he with you) and only believe what you want to. You might need to step back and look at the big picture and see if your assessment of this situation is in fact what is really happening?? When we are in a relationships, we tend to make exceptions for things because we feel that is what the other wants from us or for us to do..

The second bold point is that you never seem to engage with his friends. Even though you may have known them for years and feel comfortable around them, you don't seem to feel open enough to engage in conversations with them, at least that is the way I perceive it from your writings. This could make him feel that he and his friends don't meet your standards, therefor you just sit there and don't talk to them because you are above them. Not saying this is truth or fact, but may be how he perceives, things, which lots of times have no rational basis yet seem to to be truth to the one perceiving them??

I get the impression that you both have grown apart through the years and just no longer really have anything left in common, if you ever really had anything in common before. Does he really have any family left (you mentioned a sister) that he maybe could confide in, as he may be solely hanging onto yours for fear of having no one left and being alone (hence why he is waffling so bad about D and R)??


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

allycat0303 said:


> That being said, now he says he's filled out divorce papers and hasn't contacted me in 4 days, the longest ever...so maybe he's finally made up his mind because of tough love.


Who cares what he has done? He "filled out papers," he made his decision and now YOU move on.

Your husband has a girlfriend. Do you realize, logically, how ridiculous it sounds for you to save yourself for him? Yes, you lied, but it was a MUTUAL DECISION. The fact that you were young makes the blame shifting by your husband more despicable.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr, 

No I love his friends. When they come over, we talk all the time (His close friends) whether they are educated or not. I'm close to them, enough that I would call them, or they would call me if they needed anything. He has 4 of them, and I adore them. We talk about their personal lives etc. 

I'm not comfortable around his coworkers. For several reasons. He just started his job 2 years ago. He's never had them over, or socialized with them a lot. There's two coworkers I know well, as they had medical issues, and needed me to help them through it. 

His coworkers speak french.. although I went to medical school in french, I have a slight accent, and I'm shy. 

He is good friends with my brother, outside of family gatherings (they talk about all sorts of things). Him and my sister are very close, and she was devestated about this. They talk about sports too. I have 2 cousins, neither are doctors, and they talk about other stuff. 

Do we have a lot in common? Our core values are the same. We enjoy certain activities together: watching TV, eating out, travelling together, and spending time with family. Every year we go together to see an NFL game together in the states (I'm not a big fan) but he always said he loves to go with me. 

But I don't think we have much in common because I'm not sports obessessed! He's totally obsessed with hockey and sports/ fitness. I don't play hockey, I have for the past 18 years watched nearly every game in the NHL on TV with him (without a complaint!), or just would read a book while sitting next to him, which he said he loved. 

I don't know. I'm sure there's a woman out there that would be more into sports, and fitness. I'm not sure if it's a huge deal. I would say that I NEVER, EVER complain about whatever sport event/ TV sports thing he wants to watch. No nagging or whining etc.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Gus,

Also what is this? He's always really hated it if I had guy friends etc (he would always say, "I don't trust guys around you". Then he tells me, the OW has tons of guy friends, and it doesn't seem to bother him?

Three weeks ago when he showed up at my hospital and followed me around (yes, for the entire day, talking to me about how he was sure he wanted to be with me) a male doctor spoke to me, and he got really annoyed. He was like "Who is that guy? I don't like the way he talks to you". 

It's just totally crazy to me how he is so different and strange. When he told me that about the OW, I couldn't understand. He said one day she came over and he had made dinner, and she spent the entire night on the phone with another guy (apparently a gym buddy) and he was *annoyed*. What? Annoyed? He would have blown a gasket with me. 

I should stop. The more I think about the things he does and says, the less sense it makes to me. I should just give up trying. Mental breakdown. No contact. Disappear from the face of the earth. And pray for a miracle.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

manticore said:


> run plese allycat, save yourself from craziness, and leave him with his skanky secretary so in a couple of years (or less) he will taste the BS side of a relationship.



i agree. 
time to walk away. this back and forth bullshlt is ridiculous. 

self esteem issues, he's got them. but he's a grown ass man and needs to get some help so he can maybe one day be a faithful participant in a healthy rship. 

shorter - move on.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Allycat, I have sadly been in your shoes..

You are in your own fog as well, called Betrayers fog.. 

Just about everyone goes through it for a period of time. The issue is how long it takes for you to get out of your own fog. It took me about 7 months of solid crying what might have been 10x a day to finally pull my head out of my backside.. 

My Ex wife is still living with the other man. Like yourself my ex wife did downgrade which trust me in the end will make you feel much better. My story is in my signature labeled mymistake.

The best I can tell you is if you are going to proceed then I would go with tough love approach.. 

I would set up a online dating profile and let him see that you can go nuclear at anytime. The minute he jumps to the other woman, you make your profile public and text him that you made it public.

My concern here though for you is financial. Since he supported you during school he can cash in on that medical license of yours. I would be careful with that, so unless your allowed to "cheat" after he cheated then I would be very careful as it might go against you in divorce court.

Sadly you need to think of these things as well. But I will tell you I tried, and tried, and begged and cried my heart out for my wife to stay.. When she left in the worst way possible the vengeful side of me came out and my mind was completely geared to get the best outcome I could during the divorce. I was able to use her guilt against her and walked away like a king. 

What I can tell you is 4 affairs/attempted affairs later I still wanted to fix this for me and my kids.. 

Yes my Ex wife was a monster but reality is she wasn't a monster 24x7x365.. Like your husband she looked out for me as well and took care of me. During the WTC collapse and the crazy hours I worked she made sure she was up when I came home and had clean cloths and food available for me. And this is during attempted affair number 2 affair *that I caught.* 

I know they are not satan spawn, but without a doubt they need not to be trusted like a crack head with your purse full of money. 

You should really layout a strategy and really have a true exit point though.

But keep posting and go for some therapy yourself. It helps.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Please don't take any of the questions I ask as a personal attack against you or an attempt to blame shift this onto you. This is something that is his issue and he needs to deal with.

I am just trying to get a general feeling for the relationship, as in my opinion it is just that the two of you are no longer really a couple. It seems that you are just going through the roles in this marriage as that is what everyone wants and you both believe that is what should happen.

Your answers to the questions seem to show that you may feel responsible for his infidelity and reasoning to stray in someway. That is all his to own and deal with, but i think the dynamic of your marriage is more one of acceptance and tolerance of each other and no longer love like it may have been in the beginning. 

I am not really a sports person so I can relate to your statements, but I know that when I am with someone whom is into sports I can felt the tension in the room. Even if I am sitting there watching it, they and I can both feel that there is little shared connection, and sometimes that "fake" appearance of interest can be more painful than just actually leaving the diim and doing what you want. When my WW sits on the couch and does her thing while I watch my show, (and just feigns interest but is definitely focused on other things) I feel farther from her than when she actually leaves the room. He may be feeling this same way and just not willing to reveal it for fear of hurting you.

Since D papers have been filed, then maybe it is best to move on, otherwise if you want to R you will need to seek professional help, and namely one that focuses on infidelity.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr,

It's hard for me to judge to be honest. I can only say that I was really happy. And in couple's counseling he said that he was very happy and we had a really strong marriage eliminating the lie. His words... Not mine. He's not even making these excuses about all the things he was unhappy about. He's like "there are minor things" and he says he never thought about leaving until 20 minutes before he did it. He said we love and support each other unconditionally. And that he loved me so much this was killing him inside. During MC, nothing came out except the lie. That's whats's difficult for me. I can't fix his self esteem or the lie. How do I make him feel better about himself? I don't even know where to start.

As for divorce papers being filed.. Well they will be invalid because in Canada at this moment he doesn't not have the grounds to file for divorce. Technicality I know. I don't think there is anything I can do. In all actuality, I could call him and reason with him and it would most likely work. I also know that if I ask him, he'll take the house off the market. 

The only reason I'm not doing that right now, is I would be completely backtracking on Tough Love....and the only way to stop the cycle of back and forth is to set a boundary. I'm just not sure if being loving and supportive would be a better approach. Either way, he'll have to make a firm decision. Maybe his filling out divorce papers is an indication of his final decision. But it would have to stick for more then a week. Maybe a few months. For me to completely give up on him..

I don't know. Moving on is hard. I don't even know exactly what that consists of. All I know is I want to stop crying and stop losing weight. I don't know if that is moving on. But the pain right now is excruciating. I cry for 3-4 hours a day, and I'm not functional at work. Program director met with me and looked at me, and thought I looked so horrible he pulled me off service right away because he was worried for my health.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Everything is normal and it is hard for all of is to judge when in the situation. Once removed, things become clearer. Hang in there and take care of and look out for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Alleycat

Squeaker and HTH make a lot of sense. They have been in your shoes.

You cannot fix him.

You know this. 

And please don't start doubting yourself or comparing yourself to the OW.

There is no comparison. That idiot of a husband of yours knows this to.

That is why he is fighting himself.

Stay the course.
Stay dark.
Let any paperwork go through your Mom.

Focus on yourself. Your health. And your job.

HM


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

HTH: I couldn't find your story, but wanted to read it. I don't know what is wrong with me that I can't let it go. He was a really good husband. I wouldn't be so hurt over a mediocre relationship. He has not cheated on me before. Not even close. This is an exit affair... But honestly, he kissed her before, he left and that was it (trust me, I've had full disclosure.. Sexual positions and all). When he left, I KNEW he would at one point come back. We all knew. And we were right. But I never imagined it would warp into this crazy back and forth torture. And all of this instability. And although on the surface it seems like he wants both, he does break up with us each time. And now me.. He's filled out divorce papers "for his mental sanity" he wants to end this with me and move on. So I don't really have a choice in any of this. It's just hurtful... But my gut says this is still far from over, especially if I don't react or backtrack to his actions. But I might also be terribly wrong and driving him further away. He's actually quite weak on his resolve. Seeing me would be enough to change his mind.. I just want it to be lasting... And I don't think that can happen until the fog lifts. And I've conducted myself so far as though I have no self-respect or boundaries... 

I suspect he might be reacting now because his sister and brother stirred the pot a bit on Saturday by saying I had gone on a date with someone. 

Actually Ty put it well when posting it seems like an addiction, that is ruining what he's built... But he can't give her up. 

It seems sad but inside of me, I plan on just staying the course, and waiting it out, seeing how it plays out. I suspect that in a few months, the fog may lift and he'll realize what he's done. All the times he has come back, he cries and tells me he can't stand the thought of me graduating without him being there... Of me not being the mother of his children. He even said, I know this isn't the girl I'm going to marry or be with long term. But she's a distraction because I can't be alone right now. But I think it's more then that. There has to be a lot of emotion/ addiction or he wouldn't keep going back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

allycat0303 said:


> I wouldn't be so hurt over a mediocre relationship.


 People in great, terrible and even mediocre relationships have problems letting go. You can't say that with any certainty. We have men and women, in terrible relationships that were and are just as hurt as you feel.. 



> (trust me, I've had full disclosure.. Sexual positions and all).


 I trust you BELIEVE you have had full disclosure. Something is missing if he blindsided you and was a "really good husband."


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

*phillybeffandswiss*

The reason that I believe he didn't sleep with her before he left, was in our initial separation agreement, I gave him everything, 100% of the house, renounced his pension, stocks, bonds, and alimony if he would admit to cheating on me before he left, or too an extended EA before the date he claimed. 


It amounted to something like 400,000$ (roughly, extra) He refused to sign it, because he insisted he hadn't slept with her before we separated. It might had seemed crazy at the time, but I really needed to know if he cheated on me, and that amount of money was worth it. Had he signed it, I would have felt like it was completely over, and would not have looked back. He turned it down flat. The lawyers gave him 48 hours to retink it, and it still did not sign it. 

The lawyers then redrafted the agreement, and he lost that sum of money. 

I think if he had cheated, he would have admitted it...that was a large financial incentive. Honestly, even if he hadn't cheated, I think many men would have lied and said yes.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

allycat0303 said:


> I think if he had cheated, he would have admitted it...that was a large financial incentive. Honestly, even if he hadn't cheated, I think many men would have lied and said yes.


This is where you are wrong, some people will not just bend over for financial gain as they know that money will come and go but they will have to live with the results opt their actions for ever. I can say personally I wouldn't take such a deal. 

I know that it seems so easy to just admit it, but even the most hard core when caught still refuse to acknowledge. Like George Costanza said "It isn't lying if you truly believe it!" My ww still swears to things happening that never did, as in her "mind she can vividly see it occurring and recreate everything in full detail". She still swears to this statement after being told numerous times by all parties involved that it never occurred. I believe that she truthfully could pass a lie detector test regarding this issue, as she truly believes that it happened and has convoked herself so.

Compartmentalization is a strange and powerful thing.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr,

You're a better man then he is. Knowing him (he likes money) he would have taken the deal. He was certain he was leaving me and I quote "Never, ever coming back under any circumstances" He said those words to every member of my family. 

He has 2 tattoos of my name redone over with a HUGE sleeve tattoo, but he won't take nearly half a million dollars to say he slept with someone 4 days earlier then he did? It seems completely crazy to me. 

At that point he hadn't morphed into someone dishonest. That only came after, in the last two months. Now I can easily imagine him lying about everything.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Thanks, now if others would only see that I am better than someone as they all treat me and act like I am the lowest and worst thing possible thanks to my WW and her comments and land of make believe stories!! LOL


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

HardtoHandle,

I read through your thread and it is so terrible. 19 years, so I guess you know how I feel. I'm so sad for you. The things you write, I can feel your pain. 

But I don't understand how come the divorce happened so quickly for you. And she had tried a few times to be unfaithful before that....and you caught her and stopped her. I think it would have happened eventually as she tried before. 

Today I forced myself to go to my cousin place....he's moving into his new condo. And I was lying on the floor, in this empty condo, crying because the home that I love is being sold. I loved that house, it was our home, and we picked out everything together. And every night when I came home from work, I would be grateful that I had a home. 

And then it's everybody texting me "Move on". Is there a checklist on how to move on? I'm allowing him to sell the home I love, and cleaned out all my stuff from the house. And he's filled out divorce papers. Isn't that enough *Moving on* for 10 days? 

I sound angry. I'm not. Just sick of this terrible head space. It feels like the first month after he left. I was nothing but a zombie. At least when he was going back and forth, I had 3-4 days of happiness a week. It's pathetic, but even the lows from that weren't that bad. 

Anyways, and I kept saying "Is it impossible he goes back to being sane? He's admitted he doesn't know what he wants. Isn't there some realm of possibility that he figures it out in 4-5 months?" 

And then I chalk this up to some stupid, "I've only slept with one girl in my whole life, and because of x-y-z factors I lost my mind for a few months"

I'm living in a crazy world. Need to remember he filled out divorce papers.....


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr,

I couldn't find your story....you don't have a link?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I haven't posted the specifics in any thread I have started but they exist in bits and pieces in lots of the threads around here. Believe me it is mine but nothing that is not in most of these threads already. Married for almost 16 years with 2 teenaged girls and trying to get out with my sanity and self esteem (which is not working as well as planned). She cheated on me basically since before we were married but there was never anything specific and no trails as wide spread social media and the Internet were not really at play back then. Once she started FaceBook it was pretty much there and I discovered it all. She is a serial cheater and damaged to the core but is well respected as she act and is a teacher so she knows how to perform in front of others. She tells them what they want to hear so no one thinks ill of her. 

We are now negotiating the terms for D as I can't live like this anymore. She had a 2 year PA a coupe of years back and with 2 different men but has had numerous EAs over the years with numerous exes. I never saw it for what it was as I am generally a trusting person and never suspected wrong. Now having had my eyes open I can see all the wrong, which she still denies as she feels that she can do no wrong as it is something she needs, so that erases all ideas of morality, and right vs wrong. 

Like I said the typical story everyone has with just the finer details that are changed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr,

I don't think that's a typical story at all. Serial cheater? It seems that most people are dealing with a one time thing. Although I do find that on this forum there seems to be more men with cheating wives. I find that a bit surprising, as I would expect it to be men that are more unfaithful... That's just a stereotype I guess. I don't know how your self esteem can NOT be hurt if she did it more then once. But if it's a long term pattern, it is most obviously about her. I think some woman need constant attention from many men (to prevent all possibility of abandonment) I have a friend like that.. Except her and her husband have an open-ish relationship.. So she can date other men and fulfill that need. It works for them, and they are quite happy.

I feel bad that you're daughters have to live through that. I hope you are able to protect them from this hurt (and also that type of influence...) I'm sorry, I don't think it's ok for children to be exposed to that kind of behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Thanks. I am doing my best. Her ideals, morals, and general thought processes worry me. The girls seem to be doing fine. Counselors have said they are normal at the time. They are beginning to realize and suspect things so I worry as they are growing up to fast and I can't stop it. They are very bright and trying to deal with things above their ages. It is surprising how many in here are dealing with serial issues. Generally the WS here are a one person EA/PA grouping but lots if the BS find out that it is more than 1 after digging. 

I have understood she is broken and cares not to fix herself so it is what it is. I am more concerned that I question my faith in humanity and my ability to find someone not so broken after this ordeal. The things I have found out in the last few months, had I have known from the beginning would have made me choose someone else. I have been dealing with this for 2 yeas now and am finally in a place where financially I can move on and with the recent findings have solidified the fact that I should. She is a master manipulator and I hope that it hasn't jaded me and my sense of value when it ones to finding another mate, if I am ever ready again????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

LonelyGirl123 said:


> Wow, you are a very willing doormat, aren't you?
> 
> You need to get a backbone, and then kick the POS cheater out and never look back.
> 
> ...


Wow maybe a few more non-constructive insults will help the cause, you think?

Read the entire thread and you will find that they are separated and living separate now and divorce papers have been signed and prepared but t takes a year to d in her country. 

Also multiple actions with the same person over a continuous period (whether they claim it was broken off or not) doesn't make it serial cheating. Serial cheating is with multiple APs, but I have had this discussion with you before about definitions and know that you are always correct and your definitions are the end all be all so I won't beat that dead horse here either. Once again delivery. You don't need to insult, berate, or belittle to get your point across and it only serves to drive people away. If this is how you approach everyone in your life I am surprised you have had any sort of life since your D.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

LonelyGirl123 said:


> I didn't read the whole story, but damn she needed a wakeup call. Badly.
> 
> Sometimes being very blunt with people wakes them up.
> 
> And please, don't bore me with your self-righteous pickiness about definitions.


So your insults helped how?

Had you read the entire thread you would have seen a different story develop than the sole original post and no wake up call really needed. Not every failing M fits your one size answer. 

There is a big difference between blunt and insulting. Calling names is not being blunt. You were just being insulting by calling names. Oh wait, I am just spewing forth more self righteous pickiness about definitions again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This sounds like a self-fulfilling prophesy on his part to me.

Self-esteem is usually based on social comparisons. Your WH lives in a society in which a man's self-worth is in large measure defined by his profession. It is very hard for a man to feel lower on the professional totem pole than his W. It is also the case that many women vet men, either consciously or unconsciously, based on what they do and how much money they make.

You are about to become a cardiac surgeon. He is an electrician. As far as status goes, that scale will never balance. He sees you as both holding him back because you started your life together so young, and as being ashamed of what he actually does for a living. Now that you are embarking on a high-status career, the old lie comes back to torture him.

He may well think that he sees the writing on the wall. He thinks you are destined to find him inferior and will eventually find a more high-status man. So, he beats you to the punch by forcing an end to the marriage.

He doesn't have the cojones to just file for divorce. Instead, he has an affair with a woman who is more of a match for him on the professional status scale and leaves you because of that. He is still tortured by his feelings, though, thus all the back and forth.

In other words, he thought it was inevitable that you would leave him and couldn't wait on tenterhooks for it to happen, so he put himself out of his misery by creating a concrete reason to leave you.

People with low self-esteem can force issues this way. They can believe that it is inevitable that something bad will happen to them, so they actually do things to make it happen.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

LonelyGirl123 said:


> You're right, I should have read the entire thread. But my response should have been the first one given her.


Not if she wants to R or is undecided she should be helped in deciding what she wants and in finding the best path for her and not the one you think she should pursue.

Not every answer is a one size fits situation. You had one bad failed M doesn't mean that everyone will suffer the same fate. Your experience is not all inclusive and works in all situations. That is why coming in guns a blazing isn't always the best approach. 

You don't like being challenged on issues so why would she like being insulted. It serves nothing but to insult the OP and make them rethink the choice to seek assistance on their issue if everyone is going to brow beat them. You can be blunt without insulting. She is a cardiac surgeon and very intelligent obviously, so treating her like an ignorant moron through insults serves no good purpose other than to cause them to withdraw from the community.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> This sounds like a self-fulfilling prophesy on his part to me.
> 
> Self-esteem is usually based on social comparisons. Your WH lives in a society in which a man's self-worth is in large measure defined by his profession. It is very hard for a man to feel lower on the professional totem pole than his W. It is also the case that many women vet men, either consciously or unconsciously, based on what they do and how much money they make.
> 
> ...


Wow you have so elegantly related what I think I have been trying to say but have just been missing the mark slightly on. I agree with your assessment and the fact that he is now realizing the bigger picture as she is starting to realize her career dreams and his are limited unless he goes back for a higher education. Even with making good income, if you have a shame over your educational history nothing will resolve it until you complete that hurdle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TimeHeals said:


> *There is no such thing as an affair fog.
> *
> He simply wants cake. The benefits of a wife (as a backup plan) and the thrill of a new affair.
> 
> That's not a fog; he isn't confused about anything except how much you will put up with while he strings you along.


In your opinion. Which seems to be based, at least in part, on wilfully ignoring the evidence peovided by people who have actually been through an affair fog on both sides of the situation.


AC, it might be an affair fog. NC with him will help you to get through what he is doing to you.

It's all down to him. He is blameshifting his guilt on to you.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Lonely girl:

I don't disagree with you assessment. I do feel like a doormat, in the sense that I let him flip-flip back in forth. My only defense was in the beginning of the first month, I didn't know that he was going back to her. He would say "I need time and space to figure stuff out. I just need to think" he would even thank me for being so understanding. We were even in MC in the beginning and it seemed to be going well. It's only in the last month that I realize he probably cut it off and then resumed... And the weekends to *think* weren't spent alone. The last month... I've figured it out. Because he was so honest before, I really didn't see a reason to lie. I'll tell you how I really felt he couldn't be trusted. 

In mid may, we went to visit his Dad's grave. He's only been there twice since his Dad's death 5 years ago because it's notoriously painful. While we stood there crying, he promised his Dad that it was over with the OW. No more texts, phone calls, etc. 4 days later, after we had a fight, he got back into contact with her. Previous to that, he would refuse to swear on his Dad's grave for anything. He has reproached his brother for breaking a promise to lose weight to his father. That's when I realized that he had completely lost all sense of what is sacred to him.

I wish I was strong enough to say "I'm done. I'm over him. He's a monster" but I'm not. I love him. I hate what he's doing to us. I do believe that things are not black and white, but there is gray... And that people can go through dark times in their lives. And I am clinging to the memories of the man I've known for 18 years, the one dragged me out of the darkest places the human mind can go, who supported me all through medical school, who encouraged me, sustained me and made me so much stronger then I was. I just can't even express the tremendous impact he has had on who I am and everything I've accomplished. 

I am not proud that I wasn't able to put boundaries on his behavior. And have only done so 2 weeks ago. When he would come to me, I was hopeful. And I do feel that I was responsible for him leaving the marriage, and he's quite convincing when he comes. Even on our last trip, he reprimanded me for not wearing my wedding ring and he was wearing his! And on the way home, he drove, holding my hand for the entire 2.5 hour drive. I'm a fool for getting sucked in. I know that. 

Squeakr: you're a sweetheart. Don't worry, I don't mind being called an idiot. I feel like I am one, secretly hanging onto this... Only his sister an my mother know that I still have hope in my heart that in few months, he'll be a little more stable and see things clearly. I know that it's unlikely, but hope is hope. I can share on anonymous forum...I know that I won't take him back in this state,
where he is minimally remorseful, and still blaming me for the lie. But I don't think it's impossible that over the next few months he thinks about what he really wants in life, and realizes that he was wrong or hasty. His sister (who is wonderful) just said "I know it's hard for you, so let's think of it as a permanent break, if it's easier for you to accept". What his sister worries most about, is when he comes crawling back (which he has consistently done), I'm unable to say no to him. It's hard. It's the man you love, you would do anything to save the marriage, and when he's
In front of me telling me he loves me, I'm the one, he's ready to fight for this, I'm supposed to be able to say "No. I'm done" only because it would be falling into the same trap. Of course his entire family can be wrong, and he never comes back again, which is equally scary for me.

I'm doing the best I can, to be tough on him. To show him I won't tolerate the triangle. That he needs to make a choice. While realizing that the likelihood that this works out is low to impossible. But right now, all I want to be able to do is get through every single excruciating day of no contact.

I hope you find someone else, and that you don't let this color your view of woman. I say that while knowing that I doubt I'll ever trust a man again. So I understand your pain. At least your daughters have been spared from too much pain. That's all you can do as a loving parent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

alte_dame,

You wrote me a beautiful response. I think back to all the time he would tell me "You're going to leave me when you finish". The very first night when he explained why he was leaving he said "If I stay with you, I'll leave my job to follow you for fellowship, and then you'll leave me, and I won't have my job, or my wife". These are the things he said to my parents along with "In a few years, she's going to marry a surgeon and everyone in the family will be happy"

Him getting involved with someone else so soon after, has made me doubt everything he said when he left. In the last month, I've pretty much changed my initial stance that "There's a self esteem issue" to he's just making excuses to justify his behavior.

Putting all feelings of hurt and anger aside, I can tell you that he has deeply regretted not finishing school. It's something that hurt him a lot. To be in my family, where education is so highly valued, it's possible he felt bad. 

He mentioned that with the OW, he never has to feel bad. She idolizes him, and is so proud of who he is. Well I wish he knew, that before this, I idolized him as a man, because he was the best man I ever met, and I felt so fortunate to have found such a good person to marry. His job, meant little to me, and I appreciated what he was willing to do to provide for me, and make sure I was comfortable and financially secure. He would literally have taken any job to make sure I wouldn't worry about money during school. And I would tell him that all the time. 

He has told me many time, "I wish you were proud of me" "I wish you weren't ashamed of me".

The back and forth, probably partly my fault. He's said things to me that had indicated the issues were FAR from resolved. And the only reason he came back to me (probably) was because he felt like I was drifting away from him. 

For example he said 

"It is possible that we put all your money in the bank and just live on my salary?" 

"I want you to know that even if I won the lottery, I would still be with you, it has nothing to do with money."

"People are going to think I'm a sell out for going back to you, that I only did it because I want an easy life"

"If I'm not with you, I don't have to deal with people looking down on me for the rest of my life."

He's said variations of these statements many times. In the last month though, I've gotten so hurt, I've disregarded it all and attributed everything to the OW. But initially, I thought I could help him through it, bolster his self esteem, encourage him to do individual counseling. It's only when I realized that he hasn't cut off the OW, that I can't be supportive of whatever process he's having. 

It's just sad. If his lack of self esteem actually plays into this. And coupled with this stupid lie has caused our marriage to implode, I would never forgive myself. It strikes me as being so trivial.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Matt_Matt,

Thanks for your reply. I do believe the affair fog plays into it. I realize that if anything is going to save this, it's all down on him to figure it out. I'm just terrified of where that process will ultimately take us. I do feel that I need to step away because it has rapidly deteriorated, and at one point the damage will be too great. It might have already gotten there, and with time and perspective, I might realize that I don't even want him back. But I'm unfortunately not there yet. 

But the NC is so hard. I get the urge to do stupid things like text him that I love him/ miss him. I don't do it, but the urge to tell him that is overwhelming at times. 

I'm pretty good at NC actually. But the sadness of feeling that this is over is crippling. I hate the amount I cry everyday!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LonelyGirl123 said:


> I didn't read the whole story, but damn she needed a wakeup call. Badly.
> 
> Sometimes being very blunt with people wakes them up.
> 
> And please, don't bore me with your self-righteous pickiness about definitions. You're probably right, and I'm probably wrong. Does that help you feel better?


And you gave a wakeup call. *Badly.*

There's a difference between being blunt and being rude. I think you crossed that line.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

allycat0303 said:


> Matt_Matt,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I do believe the affair fog plays into it. I realize that if anything is going to save this, it's all down on him to figure it out. I'm just terrified of where that process will ultimately take us. I do feel that I need to step away because it has rapidly deteriorated, and at one point the damage will be too great. It might have already gotten there, and with time and perspective, I might realize that I don't even want him back. But I'm unfortunately not there yet.
> 
> ...



Tell us you miss him. Don't tell him!:smthumbup:


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> In your opinion. Which seems to be based, at least in part, on wilfully ignoring the evidence
> 
> .


Go ahead an provide links to peer reviewed medical literature that supports "the fog" claims advanced here as anything remotely resembling scientific consensus.

My opinion is... that crackpots promote all sorts of nonsense absent scientific evidence, and they misrepresent scientific evidence to support crackpot pseudoscience all the time (the internet is rife with such nonsense), but major peer-reviewed journals do a pretty darned good job of not printing such nonsense.

Peer reviewed journal articles, please 

There's a reason why this nonsense only lives in forums like these, and it's the same reason that anti-vaxxer myths live on certain websites, and it's the same reason why anti-fluoride quacks misrepresent scientific evidence, the levels that occur naturually in substances like tea, and the scientific consensus regarding fluoride on those websites.

Honestly, I have a low tolerance for psuedoscience and crackpots who promote it.,


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I agree with alte Dame.

He foresees his future with you and he doesn't like what he see. 

He does love you. He has encouraged you thru your medical education. He watched you grow. He knows he will never match you now in both educational and social standing.

He's working through his emotions but he knows he'll never be happy if he stays. His solution is to move on and away. 

But the ties to you are strong. He's trying to break them all.

What should you do? Certainly not give up on your education. You have paid a heavy emotional price and time for it. 

I think if you realize that this is the reality and stop fighting it, your stress/turmoil would be more tolerable.

Who knows what will happen in the future? Perhaps you two will really reconnect or you'll find another man to be happy with. Just let it flow.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

I think he might have a mental illness. 

That said, people with self-worth issues, tend to sabotage relationships in order to increase their self worth by being "faught for". 

Eventually, the other person stops fighting for the person with self-worth issues and dumps them saying, "you're nuts". 

Then the self-worth is lowered and the cycle repeats throughout their life. 

Some people like to push limits to see how far someone will go for them. 

I'm not sure that the above situation applies to your situation but it is one theory. 

Don't buy into is self-destructive behavior by enabling it. Tell him to contact you only when he has his Sh!t together and no sooner.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Aug,

I think I prefer that he's completely in an affair fog and will come out it. I stand a better chance against that. And it can be quicker. I know he's trying to break all the ties... And he does it so quickly and forges ahead so he doesn't have time to change his mind. That's what he did when he moved out (pushed me to sell the house within 24 hours of leaving). I would give up my career in a second... As I realize that it means very little without him. Currently, I barely function. And all the joy I got out of it is gone. It's funny, but everyone that knows us, friends and family say the same thing "there is no doubt that he loves you deeply, but he needs to work this out". But this OW is a factor too. She must add to the confusion. Before, he was seeing a IC... As someone that didn't like to talk I had such high hopes. But since last week, I suspect he's abandoned it. Because if he's not with me, he doesn't need it. And I'm not sure he has enough insight... Remember that he blames me for the lie and the way he feels. He doesn't admit to any insecurity about unequal job situations. So he probably isn't working through any feelings. 

I don't know how he really feels, how bad his self esteem is, but when we talk about our future, having children, he cries and tells me he wants that more then anything. My heart is ripped to shreds over this. It's a career. It's the one he built with me from the ground up. Half of the achievement is his. It's my last year, he should be beside when I graduate.. Give the speech, and thank him for everything he's done for me. I've pictured it a million times, and thought of what I would say to him. On one of the nights he came to me he said "it kills me to think of you graduating, and I won't be there to see you. So we have to work this out, because I love you so much" it's just torture. I'm crying as I write this because I can't let go of all the things he's meant to me. It seems terribly unfair to me that I can't just make this better. Give me a list of things to do and say, and I promise I would do them. Singleminded devotion to completing the task. 

Maybe with time he'll realize that the self esteem issue is not insurmountable. For me, the OW is certainly surmountable. But he hasn't come a long way since he left 4 months ago. It's always the same
Pattern... Do things fast fast at a lightening speed, so he doesn't change his mind... He's repeatedly told me he feels if he sells the house and gets a quick divorce he will be able to move on quickly and forget about me. 

His sister told me to sign the divorce papers if I want. It's a paper, like the house, is external stuff and it won't help him
move on quickly or forget as it feels it will. He told me when he had his tattoo of my name covered up it would make him forget me.. But that didn't happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Rugs,

While he has never done this in the past, some of my last interactions with him suggest he is getting a payoff from being fought over. He did say to me "I'm flattered that after everything I've done you are still fighting for me" it sounds terrible... I know. Uncharacteristic for him. A definite change I saw in him is that when we went to away for the weekend, he was decidedly detached whenever I mentioned work. 

Usually, he would say something like "I'm proud of you. You work hard" but over the weekend, if anything, he seemed detached whenever I spoke about work. So maybe that's a manifestation of what he's going through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

allycat0303 said:


> It seems terribly unfair to me that I can't just make this better. *Give me a list of things to do and say, and I promise I would do them.* Singleminded devotion to completing the task.



(Un)fortunately, time really does heal.

List of things to do?? My suggestion:
- finish your residency
- pass your licensing exam
- start volunteering



Dont worry about the OW. It's a "rebound" thing - relationship will never last.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The logical, healthy response would have been a decision on both your parts to enable a return to school for him at some point so that both of you could deal with all these issues. Given what he has done, however, it is too late for that, which is sad, in my opinion. You are both still young. There would have been time.

I'm sorry that this appears irretrievable now. He would have to want to work together with you to address the feelings that you describe above. It sounds like he can't do that. Instead, he has accepted that he missed his chance for his higher education and now will fashion his life around the lowered expectations for himself that he has lived with since he was a teenager.

For you, OP, the NC is important. He has you on a roller coaster because his feelings are all over the map. You need to keep yourself centered and strong. It's hard, I know. One hour at a time. It gets better very slowly.

Ironically, you will probably meet that surgeon at some point in the near future and settle into a new relationship. Your WH will have made his own prediction a reality for you.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Alt_dame,

I will never ever meet a doctor and settle down. Mostly because I would never date a doctor. Right now it's 3:42 AM and I just woke up with knots in my stomach over missing him.... And I'm wondering what he's doing and I'm so sad. In late April, we had applied to university for him to start taking classes as an independent student. And he was so excited about it. And he had renewed hope, and was so happy about it. But he attributed his happiness to hurt pride, and the need to prove himself to me. I think if he recognized that he was insecure about my job/ his job, that would be a good start. Unfortunately, he only speaks about "you lied and that's why I'm leaving you" which is a convenient reason to leave/ for the OW/ not to do any work. I guess because the blame is easier then admitting the reasons have more to do with him then me. Then we could start to do some work to fix this. As long as he blames this on the lie, we have no chance. Maybe that's why I prefer the whole affair fog thing, because I see a more hopeful set of sequence:

In a few months affair fog lifts---> he realizes that he's been blaming me unfairly---> examines the underlying reasons---> decides to work on marriage



Unlikely at this point, but one can dream. I'm allowed to do that while I suffer through NC.

Incidentally, I know that I'm calling it an affair. I'm not sure that I strictly call it that. For me, if he was honest about the timing when he slept with her, and I believe he was I wouldn't have considered it a true affair. A kiss for me, personally is not cheating. I would have been mad and angry had he told me, but I wouldn't have felt horribly betrayed etc. Incidentally the lawyer told me that I couldn't claim adultery as we were separated at the time.. In quebec the judge would have ruled against me unless he cheated while still living with me. It was hurtful and terrible, but that's how I view it. Surprisingly, it's more the back and forth of the last 2 months, that has eroded trust.

I'm not mentally or emotionally ready to move on. I know that I'll wait until the final day when the divorce is final to give up all hope. So I'm in this for the long haul. But I won't change the NC stance, because I do understand that the back and forth is harmful to both of us.

Incidentally, my counselor had strongly advised against selling the house. She felt that with this degree of instability,
I shouldn't make any life changing decisions. She heavily recommended that I take it off the market. Something in the effect that I'm letting someone with a mental breakdown run my life.... And that makes me rash.

The only reason I allowed him to sell the house was to show him I wouldn't be trying to hold him back anymore, and that he was free of me to live his life. But that gesture is the most deeply painful, as I have a huge emotional attachment to the house. I could have bought him out etc., but I know he would feel I was trying to keep him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TimeHeals said:


> Go ahead an provide links to peer reviewed medical literature that supports "the fog" claims advanced here as anything remotely resembling scientific consensus.
> 
> My opinion is... that crackpots promote all sorts of nonsense absent scientific evidence, and they misrepresent scientific evidence to support crackpot pseudoscience all the time (the internet is rife with such nonsense), but major peer-reviewed journals do a pretty darned good job of not printing such nonsense.
> 
> ...


So, the personal experiences of people on a relevant self-help forum and discussion board are of no value or interest to you? Seriously? 

*Then why do you come here?*:scratchhead:


I am *not* a crackpot and resent, most strongly, your baseless accusation against me.

Making bogus appeals to science and making spurious calls for links to peer reviewed papers on a site that does not claim scientific rigour is most unhelpful.

You might like to find a different website to visit as TAM is clearly not conducive to providing you with what you need.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

allycat0303 said:


> Alt_dame,
> 
> I will never ever meet a doctor and settle down. Mostly because I would never date a doctor. Right now it's 3:42 AM and I just woke up with knots in my stomach over missing him.... And I'm wondering what he's doing and I'm so sad. In late April, we had applied to university for him to start taking classes as an independent student. And he was so excited about it. And he had renewed hope, and was so happy about it. But he attributed his happiness to hurt pride, and the need to prove himself to me. I think if he recognized that he was insecure about my job/ his job, that would be a good start. Unfortunately, he only speaks about "you lied and that's why I'm leaving you" which is a convenient reason to leave/ for the OW/ not to do any work. I guess because the blame is easier then admitting the reasons have more to do with him then me. Then we could start to do some work to fix this. As long as he blames this on the lie, we have no chance. Maybe that's why I prefer the whole affair fog thing, because I see a more hopeful set of sequence:
> 
> ...


All of this sounds reasonable and makes total sense with what has been happening and his reactions and actions throughout your ordeal. I think you are finally correct in realizing that the issue are his to own and fix, and not yours. 

He is broken by the educational history and although your lie contributed to the situation, it is not the reason that he is currently so broken. Just like in A's it is easier to blame the spouse than to look into the mirror and see the real problem. He is finding this out and that he needs to change his entire lifestyle to make himself not feel such a failure and that is what he is doing (but he doesn't want to leave the life he has behind either).

I think the end or your residency nearing and your dream becoming a reality after all of this time and hard work, have finally cemented into him his sense of worth (or lack of worth as the case may be). He sees that you sacrificed things and worked hard to make your dream a reality, and when he looks back he mainly watched and played sports, and worked on his looks. This has kept him healthy and attractive on the outside, but he realizes had he of worked on his education he too would be nearing his dream as well and this is killing him inside.

As to the A: I believe that you are getting only a part of the story and it was actually an A, at least an EA (emotional affair) and it never went physical unit after the separation. The kiss tells me there was something there. EAs, even though they are not considered cheating in the legal definition, are just as destructive and harmful to the M as Pas are because you find that something usually reserved for you is no longer there and being given to someone else.

Keep up the healing and stay your course. I can see that you are smart and receptive and processing this rationally, even though it is an entirely irrational issue. Find someone to talk to as it will help you move through this and heal as well. I can't help but think with your stressful lifestyle and schedules that the hospital would provide someone for the residents to talk to about their issue and help them adjust easier as during this time you have probably seen and experienced lots that would need to be coped with appropriately to maintain a healthy mind and body. If they provide it, seek it out and use it to your benefit. Good luck.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And, of course, just because someone is in an 'affair fog' doesn't mean they are excused any consequences for their actions.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

allycat0303 said:


> Alt_dame,
> 
> Incidentally the lawyer told me that I couldn't claim adultery as we were separated at the time.. In *quebec *the judge would have ruled against me unless he cheated while still living with me. It was hurtful and terrible, but that's how I view it. Surprisingly, it's more the back and forth of the last 2 months, that has eroded trust.
> 
> ...



Quebec, eh?

Quebec divorce laws are different from rest of Canada. Since you mentioned a lawyer, I assume you are getting good legal advice.

As for the housing comment by your counselor, his/her view should not be the basis of whether or not you should sell the house. I would think you need to also take into account the current housing market situation, CMHC mortgage rule changes, spousal support, division of assets, etc...


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Allycat
Keep your career. You will have earned it. 

Did he help you? Of course he did. 

Stay NC. 

He needs to deal with his issues. The way he has gone about it is so horrendous. 

All you can do now is protect yourself and your feelings. 

Over time you will heal and be strong again. 

Until he drops the OW and gets counseling there is nothing you can do. 

Hm
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr,

I read your post to my mom and my sister. They thought you were so accurate and insightful (considering you've never met him) you were putting into words things that I have observed, but wasn't able to conceptualize. What was especially good for me was when you wrote "he's rebuilding his life around lower expectations, so he doesn't feel like a failure".

Yesturday was very, very dark for me, and this morning I woke up in tears feeling like I couldn't take this pain for another minute. My mother decided to take me to a religious sanctuary (No I'm not religious) and I prayed and spent 8 hours sitting in the sun. It made me feel surprisingly better...like the problem wasn't going to destroy me. My mom just said to me:

a) He's not dead
b) You still love each other
c) He's sick
d) This girl is nothing new
e) He filled out divorce papers, but he's unstable. Wait until he's stable to freak out completely. 
f) You didn't predict this 6 months ago, so don't tell me how this will end 8 months from now.

Funny enough, I'm doing something patients do. I'm rotating on Thoracic Surgery right now, which is mostly lung cancer. Anyways, patients always ask me the same question "How long do I have to live? Because I read on the internet that it's six months". While some doctors will give you a timeline, I always say "You can't look online, because everybody is different, and everyone has a different story. It's not fair to yourself to say, 6 months, because it maybe 3 years, and then you're waiting for it everyday, instead of enjoying your life. So don't look at the internet statistics"

Guess what I'm doing? Desperately looking for online statistic or a story similar to mine. Exit affair and all, and trying to find a success story to give me hope. 

My seamstress actually, on seeing the immense amount of weight I lost, started talking to me. Anyways, she told me that her husband had left her for 7 months for an 18 year old girl (At the time she had 2 children..ages 3 and 6). She's a grandmother now. I was stunned to learn it was her current husband (they seem very happy). She told me "You don't know how many woman have been where you are. At the end you may forgive, but you never forget. And you'll learn to be stronger."

Funny enough, one of my husband's friends was hospitalized 1 month ago, and when I saw him, his wife was there. She told me that her husband had also left her at one point, for another woman, before coming back. 

So I guess it's more common then I thought....I just wish I had a woman friend, who had been in this situation to pull me through it.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

HappyMan,

I hate my career right now. It has cost me everything. I'm actually considering not continuing with my last year because I'm so sad. My program director was appalled (it's a 6 year residency, and I'm finishing R5 in 3 weeks). He ordered me off indefinitely, so that I think about it clearly. 

Even if he drops the OW (and to be honest, I have no way of knowing the current status of their relationship. The last I heard was him cancelling the trip and saying it was over because he loved me, but I'll assume the worst. I think the self-esteem issue is probably more at play. And he would have to have some insight by saying, "You're right, it's not all about the lie, I feel inadequate" which he has not even come close to acknowledging. Or even "Yes, I played a part in the lie by participating...I did have a choice". I think those links are missing. For any work to be done, that has to happen. 

It's hard. Lost my husband. Lost my house. And my career is in danger. Not very positive.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Just take it one day at a time. The sun has amazing healing effects as it stimulates production of necessary building blocks within the body for necessary nutrients not easily produced by the body. Of course being a doctor you would know this but it also seems to calm quite well. This is a major reason for suicide rates rising in colder climates during the winter as the skin is covered against the cold and therefor unable to be exposed to the sun and create the chemicals to soothe and help the body and mind heal.

Get out and enjoy it when you can and you will feel much better. Keep moving on and you will get stronger and it will get better. Focus on yourself and things will get better as he is the only one that can change and fix himself ann this will only come when he wants it and not a second before that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Don't give up your career or you may find yourself in the same position as he is currently in a few years down the road where you resent the fact that you never completed it. Feeling like a failure is awful and not something you want to deal with. Being surrounded by your family of doctors will only bring it that much more to the forefront as each time you deal with then it will be the elephant in the room. 

If you are concerned about your part in the lie, then try to work out a plan to make it better, like supporting him in going back to school and completing his education. You giving up your career will only out you in the same state of mind where he currently is. Down the road you will just be a pair of non-completed individuals and it may make your M worse than make it better as you will now both harbor resentment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Squeakr,

I'm just not sure I can manage my year. I'm very very sad. Cry all the time. I'm not sure that you would want me doing surgery on you. My head is not there, I'm probably functioning at 40% right now. I think the patients deserve more. And my heart is not into it. And I blame myself, I blame my job etc. But I'm going to try and get better in the next three weeks... And see if I'm better. 

The knots in my stomach. Pain over missing him. Fear from NC backfiring. Everyone tells me I need to accept that it's over, but I literally cannot survive if I give up all hope on him. I hate myself for it. Knowing I'm waiting to see what happens in the next few months. It's stupid and pathetic, but it's survival for me at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

You and everyone else are just trying to get by and become healed and whole again. Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

allycat0303 said:


> HappyMan,
> 
> I hate my career right now. It has cost me everything. I'm actually considering not continuing with my last year because I'm so sad. *My program director was appalled* (it's a 6 year residency, and I'm finishing R5 in 3 weeks). He ordered me off indefinitely, so that I think about it clearly.
> 
> ...


Well, that's good. But can your programme director offer counselling help for you?


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

so if he told you tomorrow he wants to stay together and work on your marriage, what would you do?


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

MattMatt,

I'm doing IC... I decided today to up it to 2X per week. I'm really not doing well. My counselor is at loss at what to do with me, she feels my sadness is all reactive to my husband's instability... But she has trouble characterizing his 3-4 hour rollercoaster decisions. And she's mostly doing supportive therapy, trying to get me to detach from this situation. She feels that my last move was to a clear boundary, and now he's reacting to sudden loss of power and the fact that I'm clearly setting a limit, which I hadn't done before. But she expects it will get much worst on his side, before getting better. That being said the week was relatively free from drama after the divorce paper note..... So he may be done with me now. It's possible he's figured out his confusion in the last week... And now is serious about divorcing or he's played his very last hand.. And there's nothing more to do for a few months. Up until the last 6 days, there's been some sort of drama/hurtful even every day of the last two months. So this is the longest without incident. Counselor may switch gears to healing now that the dust may finally have settled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

Cool12,

Tomorrow? Well it would depend on what was said... But it would be very unlikely. Is he admitting it's a self esteem issue? That he's partly to blame for the lie? Most likely he would tell me something like "I love you,
I want to be with you forever" in which case I would say, "I don't think you know what you want, and when I feel like you do, perhaps I'll want to work on the marriage, but for now, the answer is no"

It's only been 13 days since I've last seen him. Nothing changes in 13 days. Nothing will change in 1 month. Or 2. Or even 3 months. And I cannot make the mistake of being sucked into a back-and-forth cycle because I'm blinded by my desperation to save the marriage. I would likely only have 1 shot to fix this permanently, and I can't mess it up with impatience/ fear or moving too fast. I already did that in the last month. If I had controlled myself, not acted so desperately, I might have saved myself a lot of pain and heartache.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Mind over matter is so hard when your heart is breaking. It would be a terrible thing, however, if your WH's dramatic reaction to his own self-esteem crisis were to destroy all that you have worked for in your own career. No matter what he says about 'the lie,' I can't help but think that he doesn't want that for you. I imagine he wanted higher expectations for himself, not lower expectations for you.

Fight as hard as you can to power past the despair and get your work done. Laser-like determination and focus. Broken hearts actually do mend enough so that we can live with some contentment. Please do everything you can to not let your heartbreak have the last word on your career. You and he have both worked hard for that and it shouldn't be in vain.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Please listen to Alte Dame and the rest of the posters. Keep your chin up. You can't bolster his ego while he's boinking miss-easy. 

Focus on yourself for the time being.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Allycat

Don't you dare give up your career.

It is not the reason you are in this mess.

I know this will sound odd but just think how much you and your husband have sacrificed up till now to get you where you are.

So why on earth would you quit now?

Remember how he was and not what he is like now.

Remember the good times and use those happy memories to push through, get stronger and finish your education.

You have months ahead of you before anything is going to be resolved.

Use them to your benefit.

HM


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

allycat0303 said:


> I hate my career right now. It has cost me everything. I'm actually considering not continuing with my last year because I'm so sad. My program director was appalled (it's a 6 year residency, and I'm finishing R5 in 3 weeks). He ordered me off indefinitely, so that I think about it clearly.


 Do not blame your career. Your career is just a reflection of you. To do what you are doing in your current career, you must be smart, focused, and hard working. No matter what career you picked, being smart, focused, and hard working, would make you successful at it. In other words, if it was not this career success, it would be another career success that would be troubling your husband.

As hard as it is to do, you need to finish what you have started in your career, or will regret it for the rest of your life. Do not lose both your career and your marriage. You destroying your career will not change the end result of your marriage in the long run. It will just make rebuilding your life harder. Be well and good luck. I really feel for what you are going through.


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## Jambri (Mar 19, 2013)

>>I went to a lawyer yesturday and they say he does not have grounds to file for divorce (In our province, 1 year separation needed, or adultery (accusation can only be made by betrayed spouse). In addition, since we went away only 10 days ago, this constitutes a recounciliation, and the 1 year waiting period has been reset!!!!!!<<

Just because he can't get a divorce for a year doesn't mean he can't play the field from here on out and leave you in the dust. Neither of you are right for each other. End it now and move on, for both your sakes.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Don't do something silly because his guilt trip is working.
Don't let him shift blame to you and your parents. 

A year to go? 

When my uncle lost his 25 year managerial position, due to newly implemented requirements, he regretted not earning his degree. He had 6 months of student teaching left. 

Your husband is pressuring and influencing your decision to finish. 

What happens when you end up in dead end job?
What happens when that dream job opens up?
What happens when you have monetary issues?




It is easy to regret your own actions, it is easier to resent those who make them for you.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Typically you see the onset of bi-polar between the ages of 18 and 24. With just the information you have given us your WS does seem to have some sort of disorder. 

My advice would be to detach from him as quickly as you can, emotionally. Focus on finishing your residency. No matter what you decide, to either R or D, you will not have regrets about your medical career. Don't let him rent space in your head. It is hard but you can detach from him.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

HappyMan,

I hope that I get better in the days to come. Obviously it's been a hard week house on market, all stuff removed, paper's filed. Hopefully that's what is making me feel sadder then usual. I have been thinking about this for about 2 months. And will think about it for another 2 weeks. It's not a decision I take likely. I just feel incapable of making it through. Especially when I see no light at the end of tunnel. I'm going with the assumption "it's over" and still the sadness won't end for months... I'm sure of that. It may be sad to think, but when went back and forth for 2 months, I was much happier then now... The little lights of happiness are better then NC. Which I realize will be interminable. It might end up that I never see him again...it's entirely possible. And the loss of that just kills me.

I get these crazy moments where I wonder if we could just be *friends* (no he's never suggested this) the sexual attraction between us would make it impossible anyways. But I just miss seeing him. But again, that dynamic would be bad for both of us. It might just ease how much I miss him right now. 

I just have regrets at 3:00AM. Like for the fact that he asked me to move in with him (to his condo) 5 times. The last time I finally agreed but backed out. And I wonder if that was a trigger for him. Because it seems to be a sticking point for him. Maybe he didn't want to go back to the house... Associating maybe the old house with his old life. And yet, even the last time I hesitated again, and the next morning he quickly decompensated and asked for a divorce when I hesitated. If that really was important to him, I guess a rational person would be able to say it. Instead of just demanding a stat divorce. He just communicates so poorly, I can't get a good handle on what he's going though... I know I know, why do I care? Probably because it's 3:00AM and that's the hardest time.

Thorburn: he doesn't meet the clinical diagnosis of bipolar. Even a mild form hypomania, he's not there. Unfortunately. It's a lower level of dysfunction... Not psychiatric, but I would say mental instability. Or mental anguish. Or mental breakdown. Substance abuse is also not out of realm of possibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

You hesitated because you knew better. It sounds like you have the self esteem issues not your so called "husband." Stop trying to fix him and get yourself back on track. Yes, we know, it is hard at times. The problem was you let him run back and forth. I'd argue it wasn't easier, it was comfortable.

Why are you worried about his triggers? He cheated not your so called "husband."


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

allycat0303 said:


> I cannot make the mistake of being sucked into a back-and-forth cycle because I'm blinded by my desperation to save the marriage. I would likely only have 1 shot to fix this permanently, and I can't mess it up with impatience/ fear or moving too fast.


allycat,

You're obviously a very intelligent woman. How can you have *any* confidence, that if you did attempt R with this man; he wouldn't change his mind - in a week, a month, or a year.

He cheated on you. He has mental issues. It's not so important why he has them or what his diagnosis is. What's important is doing what's best for you.

Of course you have regrets for the marriage ending. That's normal. But you don't have to be his plan B. And in your own words, you shouldn't allow yourself to be *"sucked into a back-and-forth cycle because you're blinded by your desperation to save the marriage". *

Implement the 180 and allow the divorce to finalize. If he stops it along the way, file for one yourself. You'll get through it. You'll get support here. Finish your residency.

This is just something that you have to get past; and once you do, I firmly believe you'll be infinitely more happy in the long run.


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

My husband called me today from an unknown number (he's blocked from all numbers) I answered because the hospital will call from unknown numbers. He said that he never left me a note filing for divorce. Upon further investigation, the note that my mother found was the breakup letter for 4 months ago. He said he wouldn't file for divorce before the year was out, and if I did, he would contest it. He wanted to see me because we have a lot to talk about. Then he asked me to please unblock him so he could text me. 

I told him to sell the house ASAP. And that I wasn't talking to him. There would be no more and back and forth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Good for you.

Stop playing his game and stick to your plan.

Unless he is living by himself and willing to tell you the truth there is nothing to discuss.

I hope you made It clear you are sick of his drama.

Stick to your guns Allycat.

The man needs a doctor. Just not you.

HM


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## allycat0303 (Jun 7, 2014)

HappyMan,

The last text I responded to from him was 2 weeks ago with him demanding a STAT divorce. And he's asking me to unblock his phone so he can text me? And he wants to see me STAT. He sounded impulsive... And he's obviously not thinking. I guess in the past two months, he's snapped his fingers and I come running. So I taught him how to treat me. I told him I was done with the ridiculous behavior. Hung up on him. He immediately called back, and I blocked the new number. From now on, anyone specifically not on my contact list, I won't answer. I've gotten 2 more calls from NO ID which is most likely him too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Good for you.

I wouldn't give him a minute unless he shows up at the door of your mothers house, on his knees begging you for your time.

Then ask him "Have you grown up yet? Are you ready to act like a man?"

Remember Ally. The decision to engage is always yours.

But to have a real, honest conversation takes two adults.

Not one, but two. 

Keep your chin up Doctor!

HM


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