# A Letter - Do I send it



## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

All,

I wrote my stbxw a letter a few days ago and I'm struggling with whether I should send it or not. She loves me with all of her heart but I've asked her for a divorce.

I struggle because I want her to move on. To focus on herself and I worry that the following letter will make her want me more or will allow her to cling on to the hope that we will get back together. I don't want that because I truly believe that she needs to focus on herself rather than have a letter from me that she will remember with fondness and will impair her process of healing.

The letter is below; looking for your thoughts.



> To my darling wife,
> 
> You are flying back to <home country> tomorrow... today... and with it being so close, it's really got me thinking about how much time we've had together that we've wasted, when we could have been talking about things, and we didn't. I'm probably not going to have time to really talk to you tomorrow and there are some things that I really do want to say to you. I would much rather be saying these to your face because that's how I feel that any conversation of any value should be had, so I'm sorry for this.
> 
> ...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

My perception is that you are splitting up for reasons other than infidelity and cheating. Provided that that is the case and that both of you have literally seen the handwriting on the wall, then it shouldn't really take her by surprise at all.

What area of the world is she relocating to? Do you intend to take time to see your daughter there? Because if you did not go to see her and did not offer up financial and emotional support for her benefit, then you would be most derelict in your true fatherly duties.

I'm sorry to hear that your situation has come to this and that both you and your STBXW can make amends to be the best parents that you both possibly can be. Because, even in your noted absence, your daughter should continue to be your number one priority in your life!

I truly wish you well, my friend!


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

@arbitrator - thanks. She's relocating across an ocean. Yes, I will take time for my daughter; I'm working to set up a consulting company that will allow me to earn enough money to pay down debts (I have taken all debt and offered her ownership of the foreign property as part of the separation agreement) and save some money so I can go live in our home country for 2-3 months of the year; though that will be impossible for 2013.

re: Financial help, I asked my W to come up with her intended budget for when she gets home. I then ran through it with her, added amounts to it to make it more realistic and that, plus a little extra, is what we settled on [at which she started crying and when I asked her why she said, "because you're being your usual wonderful self"]. I couldn't make the full payment this month because of all of the lawyers fees (hers and mine) and moving expenses though I will endeavour to do so next month. She's staying with family in the short term while she job hunts so she says that she's okay with that.

She and I are both being very emotionally supportive of each other which is at direct odds with her family. Her family wants her to "take him for everything he's worth" because "he's an a$$hole for having an EA and leaving you". Their attitude toward me is so amazingly toxic that I worry that this very positive relationship that we have is going to dissolve once she's immersed in it. And fair enough, she's entitled to some anger and it's a process she'll have to go through. But it makes me sad.

Her sister came across the ocean and stayed with her for a week to help her pack and the amount of tension in the room was insane. My W and I can talk very easily about this stuff. But at one point, her sister (who is the worlds most aggressive control freak) actually stood between us while we were having a conversation, crossed her arms, hunched her shoulders and started reading a book and, at regular intervals interjected or simply took over the conversation. I had to be quite mean to her (and I feel bad about that, I know she's just angry) to get her to back off.

My EA rocked my world. But it was a catalyst for change in my life. It got me asking the right questions. The first answers that I came up with were to blame my W. When the denial, anger and hurt subsided and was replaced by guilt, I blamed myself, solely. When I accepted my own faults, I realized that we both made a lot of mistakes.

I want to learn from mine. I want her to learn from hers... but it's not my place to tell her what's "wrong" with her because what is "wrong" with her is simply my view of how she should be... of how I want her to be... of how I need her to be.

That's not fair to her. Above all else, I want her to be happy so I worry about what effect this letter would have on her. It's the raw, naked truth... it's how I feel. I just worry about what it will do to her and I've hurt her enough.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I agree with the intent of the letter and also agree that she needs to see it and digest it at the appropriate time.

My hope and prayer is that your STBXW won't allow the hostile factions of her family to, in any way, prejudice your daughter at any point in time against you.

Provided that this ends amicably, I hope that the two of you can move on to other loves and spouses and make both of your lives complete, more especially for the welfare of your daughter.

You will all continue to remain in my prayers, my friend!


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Did you end your EA and cut all contact with the OW?

Seems to me like you wrote a nice little "absolve yourself" of guilt letter. You do know that the harder thing is to actually work things out, not cut and run. So you spent the majority of your adult lives together, and? Marriage is sanctioned codependency, you don't need to know where she ends and you begin, you just need to learn better communication skills, and how to elevate one another. I think giving her that letter will just fill her mind with doubt, if you really do feel the way you write, work your problems out, and save the relationship.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I couldn't finish the letter either time I tried to read it.

Let me outline it in three sentences.

You are forcing a divorce on her. She is leaving the country with your child. You are okay with these facts.

I think she already got the message loud and clear without the letter.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Absolute self absorbed drivel


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

The letter says nothing about your cheating. I couldn't figure out why you were posting it in the coping with infidelity forum until I saw in your responses that you cheated on her.

It sounds like you're dumping her, but the letter has a bit of an "it's not you, it's me" feel to it, from the old Seinfeld TV show.

It's Not You, It's Me - YouTube

I think this sums it up better than your letter:

_My EA rocked my world. But it was a catalyst for change in my life. It got me asking the right questions. The first answers that I came up with were to blame my W. When the denial, anger and hurt subsided and was replaced by guilt, I blamed myself, solely. When I accepted my own faults, I realized that we both made a lot of mistakes.

I want to learn from mine. I want her to learn from hers... but it's not my place to tell her what's "wrong" with her because what is "wrong" with her is simply my view of how she should be... of how I want her to be... of how I need her to be.

That's not fair to her. Above all else, I want her to be happy so I worry about what effect this letter would have on her. It's the raw, naked truth... it's how I feel. I just worry about what it will do to her and I've hurt her enough.​_
I guess you took all the time to write the letter, you might as well give it to her. Maybe add in somewhere that you are sorry for cheating on her.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

TCx cheated? I can understand now why he was fervently defending cheating as a "mistake" in some of his earlier post.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

It seems more like you're doing this to make you feel better not her. Don't send it, let her go and start a new life. This reeks of possibility and what if's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Sounds like self satisfaction to be honest.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Paladin said:


> Did you end your EA and cut all contact with the OW?


Yes, the EA is over though we still have infrequent contact via email (once every few months) and it's always short and related only to work; nothing personal. Because she's a work colleague I can't go complete NC without quitting my job and I've already said that's not on the cards.



Paladin said:


> Seems to me like you wrote a nice little "absolve yourself" of guilt letter.


I think that you're mistaking genuine affection and empathy with guilt; it feels like my time for guilt is over. I do love my wife, I think that I always will. I just don't feel like it's still my job to take care of her anymore.

I wonder, what is the right thing to do? What is the right thing to say that would not be selfish? Be dishonest? Say nothing? She and I have a child together and my wife wants me to be there. That means that I am going to be a part of both of their lives and vice versa.

TCsRedHead posted that I shouldn't send it and let her go and start a new life. Well, unless she decides to cut me off from our child then I am a part of that new life, though not as involved as I once was.

I don't subscribe to the idea that you must shut someone out of your life and heart when you go your separate ways. I don't think that I need to hide how I feel about them. She is my friend and I love her very much, but it's time that I let her do her own searching.



Paladin said:


> You do know that the harder thing is to actually work things out, not cut and run.


Is it? I don't know anymore. At what point do you decide that it's time for someone to take care of themselves? To find themselves and their voice? 

When she was packing up, I asked if she wanted the dishes and she said that she didn't want them and that she'd get something that was more her. I was so immensely proud of her!



Paladin said:


> So you spent the majority of your adult lives together, and?


I look back on the good fondly. I look back on the bad in wonder. What things did I do wrong? Why did I do them? When your spouse doesn't offer opinions on anything you are constantly wondering what they want. When you ask them and they don't give you an honest answer, you have to start digging and digging and second guessing and.. and... and...

I don't want to live that way.



Paladin said:


> Marriage is sanctioned codependency,


Sanctioned by whom? Codependence is destructive, by nature. I don't want to live that way.

In retrospect, our marriage has been codependent.



Paladin said:


> ... you don't need to know where she ends and you begin, you just need to learn better communication skills, and how to elevate one another.


Maybe. But I know who I am without her and I like that person more than I like the person that I am with her.



Paladin said:


> I think giving her that letter will just fill her mind with doubt, if you really do feel the way you write, work your problems out, and save the relationship.


I don't want to save our relationship. I want my wife to become a whole person, as per my definition, so that I can respect her and want to be with her. Until she is that person, I will love her and support her. But I will not take take care of her anymore; that's her job now.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

KanDo said:


> Absolute self absorbed drivel





Kasler said:


> Sounds like self satisfaction to be honest.


I had to laugh at these because of their inherent hypocrisy. These comments are meant only to offer your judgement.

They offer no advice. They ask no questions that might help me introspect. They are not even on topic.

Granted, I did say that I was looking for thoughts but I had believed that people would implicitly apply that query against what it was that I was struggling with.

Awesome.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Will_Kane said:


> It sounds like you're dumping her, but the letter has a bit of an "it's not you, it's me"


Kind of. But my wife has self esteem issues. I'm leaving her and that is going to have an impact on that as it is. I want to highlight the good things about the marriage; about her contributions.



Will_Kane said:


> I guess you took all the time to write the letter, you might as well give it to her. Maybe add in somewhere that you are sorry for cheating on her.


I've already said it, many times. And it's in there, I just don't come out and say it. 

I have to be careful what I put down on paper as anything that goes to her is admissible in divorce proceedings. And in our country, an EA does not legally constitute infidelity so admitting to 'cheating' would be untrue and damaging beyond belief.

My wife wants our divorce to be amicable but her family is setting up appointments with lawyers, etc, for her. They want my head so I do have to protect myself.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

aug said:


> I can understand now why he was fervently defending cheating as a "mistake" in some of his earlier post.


I do not defend 'cheating' as a mistake. I state that by your own definition, it must be a mistake. But your denial of this simple truism is not the topic of this thread; let's pick that one up in another thread.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Do NOT send that letter, it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever except maybe to make you feel better.
You're getting a divorce, your wife is well aware of the reasons why, this letter isn't going to be received the way you think it will be.
Please, if you have any feelings left for your wife, you will not send this to her, she knows the marriage is over already.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

arbitrator said:


> I agree with the intent of the letter and also agree that she needs to see it and digest it at the appropriate time.


Appropriate time... yeah... been wondering about that. I ask myself, rather rhetorically, "what constitutes the right time?"

In some ways, I wonder if waiting for "the right time" isn't just exercising control over a situation. 

"Provided that this ends amicably, I hope that the two of you can move on to other loves and spouses and make both of your lives complete, more especially for the welfare of your daughter.

You will all continue to remain in my prayers, my friend![/QUOTE]

Thanks. Oddly, I am not opposed to my wife and I getting back together if we both figure it out. I'm keeping an open mind. But I think it will be years before either of us are even close to being the people that we'd need to be to get there. 

I find it sad that, in my head at least, I have to lose my wife for either her to grow to be someone that I'd want to be with or for me to mellow out enough to want to be with her.

I guess there's a chance for us to meet in the middle in the future. But the reality is that we'll probably have both moved on by then... but you never know.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Phenix70 said:


> Do NOT send that letter, it serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever except maybe to make you feel better.
> You're getting a divorce, your wife is well aware of the reasons why, this letter isn't going to be received the way you think it will be.
> Please, if you have any feelings left for your wife, you will not send this to her, she knows the marriage is over already.


How do you think it would be received?

And if she knows that the marriage is over already, what harm can it do? What good can it do?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You do not want to give her false hope? And you tell her *this?*


> The last time we talked you said that you were sorry that we weren't able to make it work. I don't think that either one of us are really able to do that right now.


You want her to "move on?"

Why do people want people to move on? After all, it's hard for people to move on when they have a dagger jammed in their back, wouldn't you say?

Don't send this letter. Not to her. Deliver it to the person you wrote it for. You. You wrote the letter to make yourself feel better about yourself. 

Have you stopped to consider that perhaps you do not deserve to feel better about yourself, just yet?:scratchhead:


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

TCx said:


> How do you think it would be received?
> 
> And if she knows that the marriage is over already, what harm can it do? What good can it do?


I think it would be received as a way for you to placate yourself.
At the end of the day, when you've been asked for a divorce, you really don't need or want to keep hearing more about why your spouse wants to leave you.
She already knows why & she knows about the EA, this letter is not going to serve a worthy purpose for HER.
Better to put this aside, continue what you each have been doing to move on with your lives & to make a clean break.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Don't send this letter. Not to her. Deliver it to the person you wrote it for. You. You wrote the letter to make yourself feel better about yourself.


:iagree:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> I think it would be received as a way for you to placate yourself.
> At the end of the day, when you've been asked for a divorce, you really don't need or want to keep hearing more about why your spouse wants to leave you.
> She already knows why & she knows about the EA, this letter is not going to serve a worthy purpose for HER.
> Better to put this aside, continue what you each have been doing to move on with your lives & to make a clean break.


A clean break? Under these circumstances? Not possible, sadly.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> A clean break? Under these circumstances? Not possible, sadly.


Clean break would be NOT sending the letter & staying the course they currently are on.
If he sends the letter, it muddles up their situation even more.
The letter to me is the same as pouring salt on a wound, it inflicts unnecessary pain.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Clean break would be NOT sending the letter & staying the course they currently are on.
> If he sends the letter, it muddles up their situation even more.
> The letter to me is the same as pouring salt on a wound, it inflicts unnecessary pain.


I see what you mean. 

Is it a letter of self-justification? Or a way to inflict pain? Either way, I agree. It should not be sent.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> I don't want to save our relationship. I want my wife to become a whole person, as per my definition, so that I can respect her and want to be with her. Until she is that person, I will love her and support her. But I will not take take care of her anymore; that's her job now.


I hope your wife becomes a whole independent person that can take care of herself.

Because then she will realize what a crock of crap your letter is.

Then she will find someone that is honestly capable of loving her and your daughter.

I wonder how you will feel then TCX???

Maybe when you realize what you lost you will write another letter..........:moon:

Where is the barf smiley when you need it?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Sorry, but trying to characterize you dumping your wife and the mother of your child so you can 'force her to grow into a whole person' is self serving nonsense.

You also have a child you can help to 'grow into a whole person'. That is the whole point of being a parent.

I have esteem issues. My wife has helped me 'grow into a whole person'. She has her many MYRIAD flaws. I've helped grind them off of her. It is that dynamic of friction which makes married people VERY different from single people. Understanding of failures. Able to boost up the other.

But from the tone of your letter, you are NOT a married person. You are a single guy who has this woman you regularly had sex with who is vaguely attached to you until she made you feel guilty about you satisfying your ego driven esteem issues with another woman.

And your response? Pressing the eject button.

All the rationalizations in the world aren't going to make this different from what it is: you want out of the marriage. The fact you also don't want to be the bad guy is just trying to square the circle.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I see what you mean.
> 
> *Is it a letter of self-justification? Or a way to inflict pain?* Either way, I agree. It should not be sent.


Very good point!
I was originally thinking of the pain infliction as an unintentional by-product of the letter, now I can see the letter itself could be an intentional source of pain.
Whether or the not that's what the OP was trying to do, it can be viewed that way.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Are you a control freak by chance?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Why do people want people to move on?


We naturally want the other person to move on so they can get past the hurt that they're feeling. Most people don't want to see someone that they care about hurt, especially if it is their actions that cause them hurt. Some may view that as a selfish need to assuage their own guilt. Some may view that as a desire to see someone stop hurting. Their motives are immaterial because the results are the same.



MattMatt said:


> After all, it's hard for people to move on when they have a dagger jammed in their back, wouldn't you say?


Are you referring to the letter or the EA here; I'm not sure.



MattMatt said:


> Have you stopped to consider that perhaps you do not deserve to feel better about yourself, just yet? :scratchhead:


Have you stopped to consider what the purpose behind this question is? 

You say that I'm being selfish by writing this letter because I am "trying to feel better about myself". And then you attempt to play on my guilt by trying to undermine the healing that I've done with a question like this. There is a term for that... psychological abuse.

A friend said to me, rather recently, "_Negativity is destructive and is very very addictive and the more that you wallow in it, the harder it is to stop. And that negativity (be it anger or guilt) doesn't help anyone, least of all the target of those emotions. So why bother with it?"_

So I have stopped to consider it? Yes, and I've rejected it. Who is to say when I deserve to "feel better about myself"? You? TAM? My wife? God? Nope, I do. But I also want to help my wife feel better. If my absence is what achieves that then and she communicates that then that is what I'll do. If it is words of comfort from me, then that is what I will do.

Of all of the lessons that I've taken from TAM, I think that the most prominent one is that when you wallow in pain, you cannot give happiness to someone else because you are too focused on wallowing in yourself. So yes, wallowing in pain (and anger) is selfish.

I really do want to help my wife. I want her to feel better about myself. If my desire to do that is selfish in your eyes, then so be it.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

TCx said:


> I really do want to help my wife. *I want her to feel better about myself.* If my desire to do that is selfish in your eyes, then so be it.


I think the bolded part above says it all. It's all about you.


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## robotmonkeyparts (Jul 27, 2012)

Are you going to keep this up until you get the responses that you are hoping for?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

JCD said:


> Sorry, but trying to characterize you dumping your wife and the mother of your child so you can 'force her to grow into a whole person' is self serving nonsense...


So is misrepresenting what I said. I said that I wanted her to grow into a whole person so that she could be someone that I wanted/needed to be with.

But that's not the issue. I asked for opinions about whether I should send the letter and what it might do to her, as a person, to receive it.

For as much as you seem to like to talk about me and what you think of me, let's get back on topic please.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

You should send it. She probably won't read it. And if she came on this forum asking if she should read it, I would recommend that she just trash it. You're water under the bridge. So send it and be done with it.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> I think the bolded part above says it all. It's all about you.


Wow... call out the typo. Go you.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> I think the bolded part above says it all. It's all about you.


Actually, I'm going to take a different tack with this. You are right, you got me. I am selfish and this letter is all about me.

Now, with that admission out of the way, do you think that the letter, or certain parts of it, would help her, either to move on or to heal? Does it have no information in it that someone in her position would find useful or positive for her own sense of self?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

TCx said:


> Actually, I'm going to take a different tack with this. You are right, you got me. I am selfish and this letter is all about me.
> 
> Now, with that admission out of the way, do you think that the letter, or certain parts of it, would help her, either to move on or to heal? Does it have no information in it that someone in her position would find useful or positive for her own sense of self?


I dont know you and didnt even read your letter. I got hung up on all the comments and decided to not read the letter. Whether you mean to or not you certainly come off as a condescending prick. You had an affair and you want her to be a "whole" person so she will be someone you want to be with. WTF, what was she when you married her? Did she change over night, trick you into marriage or did she become the way she is AFTER you had the affair.

You are doing her a favor, send your letter. I hope it gets lost in the ocean!


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

TCx said:


> Actually, I'm going to take a different tack with this. You are right, you got me. I am selfish and this letter is all about me.
> 
> Now, with that admission out of the way, do you think that the letter, or certain parts of it, would help her, either to move on or to heal? Does it have no information in it that someone in her position would find useful or positive for her own sense of self?



Reading it might help to validate her decision on moving on due to your selfishness. And she may get a big laugh out of it, depending upon how much she has already moved on. It might make her day. Again, you should just send it and be done with it.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

robotmonkeyparts said:


> Are you going to keep this up until you get the responses that you are hoping for?


What is 'this'? That's a genuine question btw; I'm wondering what behavior you're referring to.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

LetDownNTX said:


> ... and _ didnt even read your letter_


_

Then why did you bother to post in my thread? <-- rhetorical question_


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

TCx said:


> Then why did you bother to post in my thread? <-- rhetorical question


Because I can!


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## HappyHubby (Aug 16, 2012)

Wow. People are really out to get you. lol. 

My take is that you genuinely do care about her and that you don't want her to hurt anymore. 

The question is are the words you used going to help her heal? Some maybe yes. Others perhaps not.

I would remove any of the remarks that refer to her not being what you wanted, or what you needed. That's just a backwards way of saying you weren't good enough for me. I don't care if its true. It will hurt her feelings and make her feel down on herself. Try not to write things that define or label her in a negative way. If you haven't already discussed with her the whys then you shoudlnt be bringing it up in a letter when she's across an ocean. That would be agonizing. If you HAVe discussed all the reasons then she knows. She doesnt need the executive summary. The info is in her head somewhere.

Maybe just stick to the parts where you say you are different people that didn't learn to communicate and get along.. at least it is not one-sided sounding.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

TCx said:


> Actually, I'm going to take a different tack with this. You are right, you got me. I am selfish and this letter is all about me.
> 
> Now, with that admission out of the way, do you think that the letter, or certain parts of it, would help her, either to move on or to heal? Does it have no information in it that someone in her position would find useful or positive for her own sense of self?


Clearly you are here to be sarcastic. I did respond on page 1 but I'll copy and paste to make it easier:

It seems more like you're doing this to make you feel better not her. Don't send it, let her go and start a new life. This reeks of possibility and what if's.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I read the letter and the one part that jumped out at me is
that you are not asking her for forgiveness for anything you have done but at the same time offer forgiveness to her.

It is like you are rug-sweeping or refusing to admit that you have any personal responsibility in the decline of the marriage. Another marriage destroyed by "the force", "the cosmic universal being", "fate", "the Matrix".

Don't send the letter. It is self serving and not at all sincere.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

TCx said:


> What is 'this'? That's a genuine question btw; I'm wondering what behavior you're referring to.


Surely you can't be that clueless. Or can you? 
Read your posts in this thread. 
You like to debate people over minor points. Having the last word and being right (in your own mind that is) are obviously important to you. You want others to offer opinions on the letter you posted, but when it's clear the tide of opinions isn't going the way you wanted, you challenge everyone. Just be careful you don't go too far with it because I think those things lead to Ban Land. 

I'm not sure why you solicited opinions when you clearly have a course of action in mind. Unless all this is some bizarre social experiment on your part or you enjoy getting what you think is a rise out of others. 

Not sure..don't care ...just had some time to waste so I'm moving to the next thread.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

TCx said:


> So is misrepresenting what I said. I said that I wanted her to grow into a whole person so that she could be someone that I wanted/needed to be with.
> 
> But that's not the issue. I asked for opinions about whether I should send the letter and what it might do to her, as a person, to receive it.
> 
> For as much as you seem to like to talk about me and what you think of me, let's get back on topic please.


First, if English is not her first language, unless she has stellar English skills, she won't understand this. And this is coming from a man who has a wife who uses English as a second language.

Next, get an editor. It's overly wordy.

Third, as other posters have noted, it's this challenge and rebuke to her which can be summed up in very few words "you aren't good enough for me as you are".

THAT is exactly what I'd want to hear as an abandoned spouse. (sarcasm) What exactly is she supposed to do, take self help lessons while finding outfits which fit around her chastity belt? She will, if possible, look for someone else quickly. And if she takes you back, she will resent you no matter how many letters she gets sent.

Let me ask you this: which message speaks louder, your letter or what you are doing to her? That is the message she will read.

That letter might give her false hope. It won't help her heal.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

HappyHubby said:


> Wow. People are really out to get you. lol.


Emotion XOR Rationality



HappyHubby said:


> The question is are the words you used going to help her heal? Some maybe yes. Others perhaps not.
> 
> I would remove any of the remarks that refer to her not being what you wanted, or what you needed. That's just a backwards way of saying you weren't good enough for me. I don't care if its true. It will hurt her feelings and make her feel down on herself.


Thanks. Bear in mind that this was written the night before she left and is a stream of consciousness; it's mostly emotion. Point taken though.



HappyHubby said:


> Try not to write things that define or label her in a negative way. If you haven't already discussed with her the whys then you shoudlnt be bringing it up in a letter when she's across an ocean. That would be agonizing.


We have discussed them but I also want to make sure that she doesn't see those reasons as me saying that there's something wrong with her. I know that she's going to blame herself and I don't want that.



HappyHubby said:


> If you HAVe discussed all the reasons then she knows. She doesnt need the executive summary. The info is in her head somewhere.


Exactly my concern; she is the type of person that takes things upon herself as it's her fault; something that her family instilled in her from a very young age. I've always tried to be sensitive to that (though I've failed, at times).

She called me the other night and told me that she's having trouble at home; the little snipes have started already. Her Mom is being a judgmental cow. I offered to pay her rent to get her out of there (I'm living on expenses right now so my personal expenses are almost nil) but she's reluctant to; fear.



HappyHubby said:


> Maybe just stick to the parts where you say you are different people that didn't learn to communicate and get along... at least it is not one-sided sounding.


Thanks. And what about the thank you's and the apologies? They're genuine so I don't see the harm in offering them but then who knows; ergo the request for perspective.

MattMatt also had a point in #19 (though I wasn't going to acknowledge that because the rest of the message was dripping in venom); the wording there is not ideal and probably would lead to false hopes.

I don't want to construct a completely artificial letter here either. I'm also not sure that I want to send one [this one or any one] at all; I just want to help her.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

TDSC60 said:


> I read the letter and the one part that jumped out at me is that you are not asking her for forgiveness for anything you have done but at the same time offer forgiveness to her.
> 
> It is like you are rug-sweeping or refusing to admit that you have any personal responsibility in the decline of the marriage.


You are responding to: _"I ask for no forgiveness from you for any of these things; *it's not my right to ask*. But I do offer you mine, if you need it. "_?

The paragraph above it is a rather lengthy apology for many of the things in which I thought I failed.

Did you misread this or do you really think that's how it reads?



TDSC60 said:


> ... and not at all sincere.


Please don't presume to tell me whether I am being sincere or not. I can write people's hostility and judgmental statements off to many things and even make light of it (and the people making them). But this actually offends me.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Just send the letter. You know you want to.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Can I ask, have you felt like this (about your wife) for a very long time...I mean really felt like this? Or did it only come into it's own following your EA? I am wondering that maybe you have been unhappy about certain aspects of your wife and marriage (as we ALL are) but overall happy/ok. And the EA gave you a taste of what could be, or what you think could be? And so the small seeds of doubt suddenly grew into huge, unmistakeable trees. Very definite and very present.

If this is the case, maybe you need to do some more soul searching because the EA gave you a peek into a fantasy of what could be. Nothing more.

The mind is an amazing thing and can trick the most intelligent and worldly wise of people, never mind mere mortals.



TCx said:


> You are responding to: _"I ask for no forgiveness from you for any of these things; *it's not my right to ask*. But I do offer you mine, if you need it. "_?
> 
> The paragraph above it is a rather lengthy apology for many of the things in which I thought I failed.
> 
> Did you misread this or do you really think that's how it reads?


That is how it reads I am afraid. There is no emphasis on the 'I have no right to ask', there is no clarification, right before that sentence you write that you won't be asking forgiveness. I think if you send that letter you should be asking for A LOT of forgiveness. You have shattered her world for nothing more, it seems, than a wish for her to be more assertive. And you have ditches her and your daughter on a whim.

I believe you really need to ask yourself some serious questions. What is this utopia you dream of? Do you think you will get it? Do you think you are doing you, your wife, your daughter, a favour by breaking up the family because you don't like the way your wife is such a doormat? I realise doormats are not hugely attractive and hugely frustrating, more so in a man though than a woman, but isn't that what you should be working on? If you truly loved your wife you would help her be less of one. And stand up to you and others more and better. There are many courses one can go on for that kind of thing. 

I believe you are in a fog of fantasy that this EA awoke in you. That those feelings were there before but no big deal. Now, they are a big deal. And you want to find someone you can be 'truly happy and content with'. The thing is, all people have faults. You will be swapping one set of irritations for another, at the expense of your wife and daughter.

If your intentions are as you say they are, stay celibate and single for the next 2 years, tell your wife you are doing so, and because you want her to fix her unhealthy doormatishness. You will both work on fixing your huge faults, and stay single, in the hope that this situation is recoverable. If that doesn't work, nothing will. And you owe that to the 3 of you. That is indeed if your wife wants that after all you have put her through. 

Lastly, if your wife is devastated and wants you back, don't send the letter. It is unfair, cruel. It will rip open the wounds and it will give her hope, maybe. That letter just makes me think 'why oh why oh why?' It sounds like you had a good marriage, and were on the whole, very happy. She is a wonderful woman....so why? 

Smacks of EA fantasy and whim. Your fantasy won't come true, and by the time you realise this I fear your wife WILL have done what you want and moved on. Your daughter will look up to another man as Daddy, she may even get herself a new brother or sister along the way. And you will be left with the same problems that you have right now. Only then, you may realise they are not the new gf/wife's, but they are yours.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TCx said:


> Actually, I'm going to take a different tack with this. You are right, you got me. I am selfish and this letter is all about me.
> 
> Now, with that admission out of the way, do you think that the letter, or certain parts of it, would help her, either to move on or to heal? Does it have no information in it that someone in her position would find useful or positive for her own sense of self?


Honestly? It stinks. Delete it. Don't send it.

See, what everyone who wants to get rid of a spouse who just isn't with the plan, isn't growing as a person, isn't right for me at this moment in my life (etc) wants to overlook is that no matter what they say about wanting the betrayed or dumped ex to have a good, fulfilling life without them, to grow, etc., it is just a bunch of codswallop!

They really either want them to just vanish or to live a life of celibate angst, a sort of beacon pointing to to the past relationship.

I had a girlfriend like that, once. She dumped me in a very cold and cruel way (Making out with another chap in front of me at her birthday party sort of told me that I'd been dumped. It was her way of "letting me know gently", excuse me while I spew!) and yet after several years of absolutely no contact with her, when she saw me out with my new girlfriend she became very jealous!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

TCx said:


> Actually, I'm going to take a different tack with this. You are right, you got me. I am selfish and this letter is all about me.
> 
> Now, with that admission out of the way, do you think that the letter, or certain parts of it, would help her, either to move on or to heal? Does it have no information in it that someone in her position would find useful or positive for her own sense of self?


NO


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Acabado said:


> NO


I totally agree. Not any of it is helpful. It is absolutely a letter to yourself. Not to her.

You cannot decide what is bad and good about her. Not when you have left under such circumstances. It is a selfish letter. And the overarching feeling is that you left a good woman, a good marriage, for what? Nothing. That is a letter that would be received with an empty and bitter and a good thing wasted feeling. And all that for her 'issues' that are really not that bad. Not bad at all.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Remains said:


> I totally agree. Not any of it is helpful. It is absolutely a letter to yourself. Not to her.
> 
> You cannot decide what is bad and good about her. Not when you have left under such circumstances. It is a selfish letter. And the overarching feeling is that you left a good woman, a good marriage, for what? Nothing. That is a letter that would be received with an empty and bitter and a good thing wasted feeling. And all that for her 'issues' that are really not that bad. Not bad at all.


Let's be fair. We don't know her. Maybe she isn't a good woman.

That being said, one made certain promises when one married. And I doubt EVERY avenue at fixing things has been tried.


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## thatgirll007 (Dec 14, 2010)

TCx, I used to be very similar to your STBXW and I have to say, don't send the letter.

It won't help her to know that you wish you were a better man. My exH says this to me all the time. It used to tear me apart, fill me with hope and despair. Now, I just look at him and go :scratchhead:

And a lot of what you had to say was self-serving, absolving, explaining, etc. It would probably help you to say all of this, but having heard very similar things from my xH, I can tell you that it was never helpful to me. It used to send me into a whirlwind of confusion, hope and self-doubt. And he _still _says these same things some 2+ years post marriage.

What I wish he had done and what would have been beneficial to helping me "move on" and become independent/"whole" much faster:

1.) Left and stuck to his guns.
2.) Kept his feelings about me and "us" to himself after he made the decision to leave.
3.) Maintained a civil/polite/friendly demeanor in our interactions after separation.
4.) Stayed out of my personal business/relationships after he left.

A man of integrity, who really doesn't want to hurt his ex even though he can no longer be with her for whatever reason, actually leaves, no longer seeks approval/support/absolution from the person that he wronged, but seeks approval/support/absolution from himself.

As someone who does not want to be codependent, it would behoove you to do your own thing and let your STBXW do hers. That is the absolute best thing that you can do for her and still have a fighting chance of maintaining a friendship/relationship of mutual respect.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

JCD said:


> Let's be fair. We don't know her. Maybe she isn't a good woman.
> 
> That being said, one made certain promises when one married. And I doubt EVERY avenue at fixing things has been tried.


We don't know the woman, but in his letter he goes on about what a wonderful woman, a beautiful woman, a beautiful soul, a truly beautiful soul....etc. In the letter she sounds faultless and a perfect mum and wife. Obviously I realise this letter is not an essay on his wife's personality, but that is the information I am going on, that she is a good woman. 

So, I disagree, there is no maybe. She is a good woman. And he is leaving her for her fault of not being assertive enough. And the EA has made him realise his long and deep seated unhappiness and that this one fault is irreconcilable!

Hmmm

Did you read the letter? I think not. Otherwise you would not have posted that.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> We don't know the woman, but in his letter he goes on about what a wonderful woman, a beautiful woman, a beautiful soul, a truly beautiful soul....etc. In the letter she sounds faultless and a perfect mum and wife. Obviously I realise this letter is not an essay on his wife's personality, but that is the information I am going on, that she is a good woman.
> 
> So, I disagree, there is no maybe. She is a good woman. And he is leaving her for her fault of not being assertive enough. And the EA has made him realise his long and deep seated unhappiness and that this one fault is irreconcilable!
> 
> ...


Ah. Now I see. This all makes horrid sense. The letter is written in the fog of infidelity.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Remains said:


> We don't know the woman, but in his letter he goes on about what a wonderful woman, a beautiful woman, a beautiful soul, a truly beautiful soul....etc. In the letter she sounds faultless and a perfect mum and wife. Obviously I realise this letter is not an essay on his wife's personality, but that is the information I am going on, that she is a good woman.
> 
> So, I disagree, there is no maybe. She is a good woman. And he is leaving her for her fault of not being assertive enough. And the EA has made him realise his long and deep seated unhappiness and that this one fault is irreconcilable!
> 
> ...


Not saying she's a bad woman, I'm saying we don't know...but even not knowing, there is little justification here in his actions.

He is sugarcoating a turd with that letter. It puts a nice white coating on the ball, but it doesn't make the insides chocolate.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Remains said:


> Can I ask, have you felt like this (about your wife) for a very long time...


This? At the risk of seeming like a hypocrite, I'm going to deviate from the letter from a few posts and tie them back to the letter at the end. I'm sorry that this is so long.

This = The fact that she is a 'doormat' with extremely low self esteem? After the EA. The other issues that I'd had with her? Long before the EA, going back at least 9 years. And some of her foibles going back to the beginning of the relationship, but I'd always just thought that she'd grow out of them.

Let me give you some background on both of us (and I'll try to do this without filling several pages worth). We are both in our late 30's and the children of single moms (my Mom left my Dad because was an alcoholic on a downward spiral and her Mom had a PA and left her H for the OM but the OM chose his family to work it out). Both of our mother's are very strong women (control freaks to boot) and ruled with an iron fist. Both of our fathers had the guilt of not being there enough so they compensated with buying both of us lots of gifts. We were both spoiled rotten.

The difference between our up bringing, though, was that my Mom was not overly critical where as my wife's mom did nothing but criticize and dis-empower (or at least that is my wife's perception and I buy it knowing what I know about her; her Mom's nick name is the 'Drill Sergeant'). Even now, my W tells me of the snide/judgemental remarks on our phone calls together like, "I'm going to make dinner, there's the treadmill".

Before we'd met, I was very much like my wife; unambitious, lost and just kind of coasting through life and riding on the backs of others to do so. I was a college drop out (actually, I flunked out) who had no idea where I wanted to go. The first real lesson life taught me was when my flat was broken into and they stole everything (including my rent money and food out of the fridge) except my bed and my desk. I had nothing, was about to get evicted and with my job-at-the-time I couldn't even afford food. So I moved home in defeat and started re-evaluating my life. I went back to school with purpose; got straight A-A+, got into University and decided that I wanted to live in different countries; suddenly I had purpose and ambition.

We met in my last year of University through a circle of friends. I had no interest at the beginning (my wife is no super model) but she got me because she pursued me (actually she kind of stalked me). At the time, I was deathly afraid of women because the two experiences that I'd had with women had been decidedly traumatic (frankly, I'm surprised I'm not gay) and because she is a good person. My mom didn't like her at first and neither did most of the rest of my family (my mom was actually really vocal about it too, but then I was rebelling and 'no one is ever good enough for your kids' was my thinking).

Anyways, I liked my W because she liked me and because she 'needed' me. I didn't realize this at the time but I'm very paternal; I take care of people (which is why I clash with BS' so much; those that have nothing to give but venom are my anti-christ because they are, by nature, destructive people). She liked me because I was always the center of attention; I commanded every room that I entered (social nexus; a new found skill that I'd simply stumbled onto my first year an University where as before I was an awkward nerd) and because I listened to her and showed interest.

After we met, we spent so much time together that she fell behind in class and eventually dropped out, which was fine with her because she had no real ambition anyways. She got a part time job at a craft store and simply signed the back of it and handed it back to her boss in exchange for product.

I got a job working with accountants which taught me how to manage finances. In fact, I was religious about it and I tried to get her to buy into it; keep track of purchases, etc, but I could never get her to pick it up. With my paycheck, I paid the bills, mortgage, food and bought toys for me and expensive gifts for her on the relevant occasions (which she loved because that's what her Dad used to do for her).

But neither of us were good at keeping the house (cleaning, organizing maintenance, etc) and my Mom had inducted me into the idea that was a separate 'job' than winning the bread. So at the beginning, I'd get angry, both at my own lack of motivation and hers and storm around the house cleaning. She'd sheepishly tag along helping but that was the only time that she ever actually did anything... when I instigated it either through frustration, desire or need. That is her personality... she is a follower. She will do things when she is told to do them, unless she doesn't want to in which case she procrastinates on them [and hides that fact] until it becomes a problem and someone else then does it.

So, through the years, I have taken on much of the responsibility for the operational life cycle of our marriage. And then we had a daughter it was more of the same. My W decided that it would be better if she didn't work after the birth because "I'd only make enough to cover the sitting costs, so what's the point? If I stay home, it costs the same and our daughter gets to spend time with her mother." "Okay."

Except her idea of motherhood was sitting our daughter on the rocking chair for 8-15 hours a day and turning on the TV while she played on the internet. I wasn't much better because I was also tired and because I seemed to be doing everything else, she could "damn well give me some time away". The number of times I came home to find the house destroyed and our daughter watching TV. My W figures it was PPD... and that may be true but then she's had PPD for most of her life.

Anyways, I would clean the house on weekends while she went out to recreate (which was fair enough, she was home all day). In many ways I had just accepted this because this was my life. But I started throwing myself more into my work and hobbies to cope which made her feel more lonely and the sex stopped completely after the birth. In fact, we had sex about 3 times the first year after the birth, less than once a month the next year and I'm finishing off my 7th month now. Before the birth, sex would happen once a month (3 days after her period finished with a bonus on valentines day (sometimes) and my birthday.

My wife is also a very emotional shopper; I used to be also but I am growing out of it. Her office is filled with trinkets of no real value [to me] that she doesn't use or really spend any time with. SHe buys them because there is a hole in her life and she spends a _tremendous_ amount of money doing so.

I have tried, over the years, to get her to step up. I have tried identifying the problems, getting angry, communicating my expectations (a schedule, a task list, etc), asking for help, crying in despair, putting her on budgets, showing her how to do things. And no matter which tack I'd take, she'd just curl up into a ball and start crying silently and say, "I'm a crap person" and she would step up, for a couple of weeks. As I look back, I can see the progression of how our talks went. The first few were me venting my frustration, the ones after were me trying to be understanding and supportive until, the last 3 years, they were back to raw frustration. Either way, when someone shuts down like that, you can't help but look inward and ask if you are the problem; if you are abusing them in some way. It is a barrier to communication. I could communicate to her but she would not communicate to me. After our talks she would always agree with me and we'd be okay for a while.

In the end, the only way that my wife knows how to live [with me] is to be asked/told to do something. Which is why the statement...



> I've been with you for the majority of my adult life and, as such, I have difficulty seeing where you start and I end


... is so poignant for me. Though I guess it's badly explained in the letter.

How much of her problems are "her" and how much of them are "me"? I don't know.



Remains said:


> I mean really felt like this? Or did it only come into it's own following your EA? I am wondering that maybe you have been unhappy about certain aspects of your wife and marriage (as we ALL are) but overall happy/ok. And the EA gave you a taste of what could be, or what you think could be? And so the small seeds of doubt suddenly grew into huge, unmistakeable trees. Very definite and very present.


As I've said, the EA was the catalyst. My W was my first really term relationship and the first time that I can say that someone really loved me back. The EA showed me that there are other women out there. Ones that worked with me and ones that I respected and weren't afraid of life... and that liked me for more than the fact that I'm the typical alpha male... that someone could stand up to me and be honest with me.

Because of the pain and uncertainty of the EA, I started talking about my problems and people told me about their marriages. One guy listened to my problems and said, "You can tell me that you have marital problems when you come home to find out that your wife has bought a house without talking to you about it". And I decided that I never wanted his marriage. Another said that his was great, his wife did the cooking/cleaning/finances and all he had to do was give her his paycheck and spend time playing with the kids. I don't want that either; she sounds great but he's taking advantage of her.

And I saw husbands who truly missed their wives; who wanted to be around them. I don't miss my W when she's away because she is a 'job' to me now. I 'need' to take care of her. I no longer want to take care of her.



Remains said:


> If this is the case, maybe you need to do some more soul searching because the EA gave you a peek into a fantasy of what could be. Nothing more.


Every major lesson that I've learned in life was when something bad has happened in my life or when I've made a colossal mistake. That's why I have the outlook I do on life; every single mistake I've learned from and become a better person. If this is one of those then so be it; I look forward to being that better person.

And as a people manager, I have seen, first-hand, how people fall into habits and rely on their crutches and, how when you remove those crutches, they step up and flourish into their own. So with this divorce, I am removing both my own crutch and my wife's crutch and we will either flourish or we won't.



Remains said:


> Do you think you are doing you, your wife, your daughter, a favour by breaking up the family


No, but life is about choices. I have a choice, now, to make about how I'm going to accommodate this change in her life.



Remains said:


> I realise doormats are not hugely attractive and hugely frustrating, more so in a man though than a woman, but isn't that what you should be working on?


I am. I'm setting her free to learn, like I have, by circumstance, because that is how I've learned every important lesson in my life. And I'm setting myself free to fix myself. I struggle with my own sense of motivation and sense of self. And if we're happier apart than together then this is the right decision. The problem is that when you put two procrastinators in a room, nothing ever happens until one of them steps up to make a change. For the last 12 years, that person has always been me. I'm tired. I want to fix me for a while without having to fix someone else too. And I want someone who wants to fix herself too. 

And if there's nothing wrong with her and it's only my perception of her that's broken then the result is the same... we are quite literally, incompatible right now. One of us might change that makes that no longer the case.



Remains said:


> If you truly loved your wife you would help her be less of one. And stand up to you and others more and better. There are many courses one can go on for that kind of thing.


That's another thing that I've learned from talking with others. So many different people have said, "If you really love your wife then....". Bull****. No one has all of the answers. I choose to support my W in her choices... and she has choices to make now.



Remains said:


> If your intentions are as you say they are, stay celibate and single for the next 2 years, tell your wife you are doing so, and because you want her to fix her unhealthy doormatishness. You will both work on fixing your huge faults, and stay single, in the hope that this situation is recoverable. If that doesn't work, nothing will. And you owe that to the 3 of you. That is indeed if your wife wants that after all you have put her through.


And this is where I tie all of the above back to the letter. 

What I want from her is to be more ambitious, more proactive, to set a goal, to be happy. But separating and telling her that's what I want just follows the pattern that we've been in for our entire marriage. I do not trust my W. I know that she will do anything to please because she is a people-pleaser and requires that love/validation. But that only goes so far because the changes do not last... so I do not trust any change that she makes.

So, I don't want to tell her how she should act. It is for me to choose whether I want to be with the person that she is today, and I do not. If she figures it out and decided that the person she wants to be is inline with a person that I want to be with then that changes things. But I will not try to change her or "grind out her faults". That is ultimately her responsibility, not mine.

I say this because one of our conversations went like this:

"I don't know what I want because I'm not used to this. The person that I look to to think about this stuff is you and you're not telling me what to do"

"I want you to make your own decision about what you want."

I tell her what I want and she gives it to me... for a while. I want her to do what she wants... and if that happens to coincide with what I want then we have a chance. But while she's lost, there is no chance because she'll look to me for guidance; she'll do what I want... for a while.



Remains said:


> Lastly, if your wife is devastated and wants you back, don't send the letter.


And that's where I struggle. As I mentioned earlier, I lashed out at her pretty hard after the EA because I was in pain and I'm worried that I've damaged her self esteem further. What I want to convey to her is that the failure of the marriage isn't her fault... you may disagree with my assessment there but it's how I feel. We're different people that couldn't get it together and it's not up to me to choose how she should live her life. But I also want to help her self esteem by giving her positive messages because that's going to help her... and because there are very few people, where she is, that are going to give them to her.

And that's good in a way too.. because I'm hoping that she gets fed up with them too and starts to push back. I want her to move on because the faster she does, the sooner she will be so pliable. In many ways, I want her to get angry because that anger will give her strength.



Remains said:


> It sounds like you had a good marriage, and were on the whole, very happy. She is a wonderful woman....so why?


We had lots of love. Love is not enough.



Remains said:


> Your fantasy won't come true, and by the time you realise this I fear your wife WILL have done what you want and moved on.


My fantasy? My "fantasy" is that I'll be paying child support/alimony for the next 20 years, which will account for a large portion of my wages. I have taken all of the debt so I will be throwing myself into my job for the next 3-5 years to pay them off. I will travel on the job as much as possible so I can live on expenses to minimize my own personal spending requirements which is going to pretty much destroy any hope that I have of having a wife who wants kids (without marrying someone that is significantly younger than I am who will be more interested in my wallet than my attributes as a husband) while still trying to build a nest egg and enough to visit my daughter regularly.

Then, in about 5-10 years, my fantasy is that I will relocate to somewhere closer to my daughter so I can start to be a real presence in her life.



Remains said:


> Your daughter will look up to another man as Daddy, she may even get herself a new brother or sister along the way. And you will be left with the same problems that you have right now. Only then, you may realise they are not the new gf/wife's, but they are yours.


I already recognize my own faults and I'm working to change them with lots of time spent reading, researching, introspecting and talking to others to get their perspective on life.

As a final note, I think I see what you're getting at with the letter. Because it is so positive, it will cause her to look back on the 'goodness' of it and will thus make her want it back; ie - false hope. Fair enough. I know it's not my job to take care of her anymore but I still want to help her. Despite all of my frustrations with her, she is a kind person who would give you anything she had to give and for that I love her; I want her to be happy.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

PS - I recognize that the above is simply from my perspective and that she will have a different perspective of her own. Before you say, "self absorbed drivel" let me remind you that because she does not talk to me about how she feels or what she is thinking (even when I ask - I have to drag everything out of her) I have only my perspective to give.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You are spending a huge amount of time discussing this letter with strangers and I have to wonder what that really is bringing you. The most benign interpretation is navel gazing, but the tilt of your argumentation suggests a different personality issue going on. I'm trained in the standard Western argumentation methodology that one uses for research & I have to say that trying to follow your reasoning makes me feel like my brain is slowly burning from the inside out.

It sounds like your W is not the woman you want her to be in order to stay married to her. You are divorcing her for this reason. She knows this. Given how you feel about her, it seems to me that she has, at long last, dodged the TCx bullet. Now she can build a life without having to try to please a man who doesn't want to be married to her. Why not just leave her in peace?

ETA: It occurs to me that what bothers me about this is really simple. You say that your W couldn't become who you needed and wanted her to be. You also say that you want her to discover herself, that you are setting her free to hopefully do that, to become the person you think she can be. But, what if your W is happy with who she is? What if the good person that she appears to be from the way you describe her is just fine with her? Why do you assume that you know best re what sort of self-discovery would be right for her? What bothers me here throughout is the patronizing tone and assumptions.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> You are spending a huge amount of time discussing this letter with strangers and I have to wonder what that really is bringing you.


I discuss it because some of them challenge my perceptions by asking questions. In turn, I challenge those who ask none.

I wonder though, why does anyone [with the exception of those with professional interest] with more than 100 posts come to CWI?



alte Dame said:


> it seems to me that she has, at long last, dodged the TCx bullet.


And how is this not patronizing?



alte Dame said:


> You also say that you want her to discover herself, that you are setting her free to hopefully do that, to become the person you think she can be. But, what if your W is happy with who she is? What if the good person that she appears to be from the way you describe her is just fine with her?


I was fine being a lazy teenager. I was happy as a petulant child. So, I suspect, were you. We always want more for those that we love and what we define as 'more' is most often in line with our own values (aka - assumptions) on life.



alte Dame said:


> Why do you assume that you know best re what sort of self-discovery would be right for her?


I don't. But in my experience, people fall into habits (myself included); they lean on their crutch so long as it is within their reach. When the crutch is removed, they learn walk without it because they have to.

I have tried driving change in her life, it doesn't work. So I'm changing tactics. People achieve more with a higher self esteem; I wanted the letter to help support her in that.

So which is better; that she discover her own way or that I try to "grind out her faults"? I guess it all comes down to how you view marriage. I struggled for a very long time with just cutting her loose. I still don't know if it's the best thing to do. Neither does anyone else know that it's not.



alte Dame said:


> What bothers me here throughout is the patronizing tone


I patronize those that accuse; I answer those that ask. You'll notice a pattern in how I respond to reasonable posts and how I respond to aggressive ones.



alte Dame said:


> and assumptions.


To have an opinion, you must first make assumptions. Everyone makes assumptions.

At any rate, thanks for the responses. They've been informative and my decision is made.

Interestingly, I was googling 'friends after divorce' and came up with the following:


Staying friends after divorce
Stay friends after divorce
From ex-spouse to friend: Reinventing Relationships After Divorce
Don't let divorce destroy a friendship
... and the other side of the argument: Staying Friends: Confused Divorce

I think that they're all worth reading. Though it's interesting that they all promote good communication.


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