# Blameshifting -- "YOU made me do that!"



## Daft Jerry (Feb 19, 2012)

I’m 50 yrs old, three kids, and am struggling with a marriage crisis. My W and I have just begun MC, and I’m looking for advice how to address blameshifting. 

Most threads here seem to deal with the topic in the context of infidelity, but that’s not the case in the situation confronting us at the moment.

The backstory is long and convoluted (maybe I can introduce some of it later), so I’ll begin with an episode from 5 months ago that both encapsulates some of our problems but has also escalated our crisis considerably.

On our 22nd wedding anniversary (which we celebrated on an extended vacation without the kids) my W announced that she’d step down from a recent promotion because I “don’t provide enough support.” While it’s true that I’ve not been enthusiastic about her taking the new position because it consumes vast amounts of time and energy without better pay, I’ve rearranged my own schedule in a major way to accommodate hers, make sure the kids don’t come home to an empty and messy house, etc. I didn’t want to raise any of this because it would have ruined our anniversary and so I changed the subject, but her remark stung. Hard. She had just dismissed major efforts on my part to make her career move work, and she blamed me for her decision to step down. I started to withdraw physically and emotionally.

The next phase involved major fights and confrontations over the following weeks and months. It began a few days later when she asked “what’s wrong with you, why are you upset?” When I told her that I was still reeling from her anniversary comment, the responses came hard and fast: “You’re living in the past.” “You’re unable to move on,” “You’d be happier if I was dead” (the latter particularly devastating because she had gone through a cancer scare only 2 months earlier).

Things got worse after I refused to meet her Demand, yes, Demand that I simply forget about the whole thing without her taking ownership of the fact that she said hurtful things on our anniversary and afterwards. During conversations over the last couple of months, she called me a “dog,” told me “We’re finished,” said our marriage was “a piece of paper,” and asked me three times to divorce her. 

As for my reactions: In similar situations in the past I used to respond with anger and rage that contributed to the downward spirals. After two years of IC (as well as reading TAM posts), I began to get a grip on my actions and reactions, learned to control myself, swallow hurtful words, take a breath, etc. In line with that, in the aftermath of the recent conflicts I told her firmly but calmly to stop talking about divorce, death, dogs, etc. On other occasions I simply told her to please stop, took her in my arms, stroked her face, and told her I loved her. None of this has enabled us to plateau. My calmer reactions in fact seem to enrage her further.

I have not let go of the notion that she needs to take responsibility for her words and actions in the last couple of months as a precondition for improving our situation. This, however, she has refused to do. During a recent phone call, she told me flat out, “I don’t think I’ve done anything horrible.” I then reminded her of some of the things she had said and done just a few days earlier (“You son of a *****,” “You hate me,” hitting herself in the face, throwing herself off the bed to the point where I had to physically restrain her, etc.). When I added that this seemed horrible to me indeed, she said: “YOU made me do that.” 

I recounted the last comment in MC, where my W and I developed our divergent narratives of what had happened since our anniversary: Me recalling some of the things she had said and done that had hurt me, disfigured our relationship, and dishonored our marriage vows, and she criticizing my inability to get over it already. Curiously, she immediately changed the subject when I recounted the “YOU made me do that” comment.

How to proceed from here on out, both in MC and beyond? I don’t want to worsen our very fragile situation by belaboring the point, but I feel I’m onto something important here. What’s an effective way to deal with blameshifting that actually stops it? Thoughts and shared wisdom anyone?


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Daft Jerry said:


> (“You son of a *****,” “You hate me,” hitting herself in the face, throwing herself off the bed to the point where I had to physically restrain her, etc.).


She's projecting IMO. What she is spewing toward you is how she feels about herself. She hates herself.

Perimenopause can rock the emotional boat.

As for the blaming thing, I call it out by asking "why do you feel the need to assign blame for this?" (with my husband the blaming is his knee jerk response when me or a child "screws up" by breaking something or spilling something etc).

I frequently use positive affirmations to counter criticism. This article might help replacing the negativity with positivity. How can we create change? | The Marriage Restoration Project


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Daft Jerry said:


> “YOU made me do that” comment.


That's not the way my husband blames but if he said that I might reply with a humoroous "WOW, am I powerful!!! I wonder what else I can make you do???


----------



## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

No one, I repeat, no one can make you feel or do anything. She's burdening you with guilt. Her behavior remind me of a child's tantrum, if there is no audience the tantrum loses it's meaning. Step away next time she pulls this on you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

She 'baits' you, and you take the hook! Sorry, did I make a mistake? Did you say 'blame'?

Stop looking t the infidelity threads. Take a look at Deelo's sticky in the men's section first. Look at the fitness test and boundaries. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

I guess you didn't make to much of a display of resentment over her time consuming job. Did you? Think you had any part in this?

BTW, Justified or not, that crap she said during the anniversary was done to to kill any chance at reconnecting. Bet there wasn't much sex that vacation.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

We only hear your side, so we don't really see the complete picture.

Have you tried Active Listening? Basically, you repeat back to your wife what she says, making sure you have understood her. You do this over and over until she calms down. At that point you can try to explain your side. If she gets upset again, stop expressing your side, and just go back to repeating what she says until she is calm again.

It's good you are learning to take what she says less personally. It would be best to not take it personally at all.

Sounds like you are going to have to be very patient. You will only frustrate yourself if you try to make her take responsibility before she is ready. You can't make it happen, you know? You can create an atmosphere where it is more likely, though.


----------



## Daft Jerry (Feb 19, 2012)

Thanks for the responses, dear all. 

Blonde, re: "She hates herself:" She doesn't really come across that way at all. If anything, there's a degree of self-righteousness that's truly staggering at times. Maybe there's a subconscious element of self-hatred, but I'm not a psychiatrist and--having been on the receiving end of all sorts of diagnostic speculations she gleaned from 10 mins on wikipedia--I'm reluctant to make calls to that effect. As for asking, "why do you feel the need to assign blame for this?" well, the answer would most likely be, "Because YOU'RE truly the one responsible for all of this 'cause you can't move on."

Blonde, re "WOW, am I powerful!!! I wonder what else I can make you do???" That one actually made me laugh out loud about all of this for the first time in many a moon. Thanks!

Mablenc, good point re "tantrums" and audiences. It squares somewhat with anchorwatch's suggestion, if I understand it correctly, that I've been an enabler. But it's a double-edged sword, in't it? She has criticised me for things that in fact deserved criticism, and--careful not to blameshift myself--I've been willing to accept responsibility for saying and doing careless & hurtful things, stupid things said & done in anger, etc. Have taken responsibility for them, and apologised. Which she, in turn, has not hesitated to cite as evidence that I'm the ar$ehole, without reciprocating one bit. Nice tangle, this one!

anchorwatch, "I guess you didn't make to much of a display of resentment over her time consuming job. Did you? Think you had any part in this?" To some extent you hit the nail on the head. I have long had a strong tendency to want to make happen what she desires if it's within my power because she's my beloved wife, after all. I certainly did that re her taking her new position, though without showing the degree of enthusiasm she expected, which is precisely what she pulled out of the hat on our anniversary. And no, that night I wasn't exactly in the mood for sex, reconnecting or otherwise, which has incidentally been another sore spot. W: "I was so ready to make love to you on our anniversary, but it didn't happen because you can't let go of things." Man up? Sure, and I have. Which strongly reconfirms her notion that I'm a dominant, controlling, arrogant SOB.

jld, "Have you tried Active Listening?" That's something I haven't thought of before, and I'll try it once we're back on speaking terms, maybe even in MC.

Good night for now. Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

It sounds to me like what she really wants is a rock she can bouncer her emotions off to get them out. The man up comment is telling. She wants to emote, and probably wants you to take it, not react, and get over it.

But that puts you in a lousy spot, because basically you have to disconnect emotionally from her to do it. 

For what it is worth, this seems to me a common dynamic, and also a cruel catch-22.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

DJ, if your wife is like most of us, you need to follow seekingsanity's advice and try to be the rock.

The waves hit the rock, the lightning hits the rock, the thunder cracks, but the rock does not move. It doesn't lash out at the elements and it does not leave the sea because it is afraid of the storm. No reacting, DJ. No going to her and telling her how she hurt your feelings. 

Mablenc and many others disagree with me, and I respect that, but I say stay in the room when she hurls her anger at you. Unless you cannot. Try to get strong enough to be able to be there for her. She already feels out of control. If you can be the rock, she will feel safer. When she feels safer, she will trust more, and she may share more, and even start to listen.

Nobody cares about her as much as you do. You have to decide how much you are willing to do to help her. Please think about this.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

I think jld is right, however there is very real cost to this approach: You are not allowed to have emotions in the relationship. That's a pretty lonely place to be.

It's similar in my situation. I basically cannot communicate any feeling that is potential negative towards my wife without repercussions. I personally find it very difficult to sustain an emotional connection when my feeling cannot have a voice. I feel for you. I have no advice on how to change this.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It wouldn't be forever, seekingsanity. And he does not have to do it at all if he is not able to.

I know I ask a lot of men. But you know, our society used to. They used to be asked to do hard physical labor every day on farms or in factories. They used to be sent to war. That's how boys became men. And they did not fear their women.

Okay, maybe there are some fallacies in that last paragraph. But I think DJ's wife is begging for a man.

DJ needs to build security in himself first, and not ask for her to provide it for him. She cannot. She is even weaker than he is.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

You can use Blonde's sarcasm once maybe, but smile when you do to take the edge off. Other than that, by all means point out that you do not control her, cannot in fact. She chooses her responses, not you. You have been making an active effort to make better choices, because you are tired of the negativity, tired of the drama. You are hoping she will too. Ask her how the drama helps? Does it feel good? Is that what she really wants? Because maybe you are going to reach a point where it's too much. Where it feels like a waste of the precious time you have on this planet, to spend it fighting the one who is supposed to love you. Think hard about the life you have, and the life you want. Be the person you aspire to be. Ask her to think about these same things, and pay attention to her answers. If she refuses to change, if she wants to stay stuck in the ****, that's her choice. It doesn't have to be yours, nor do you need to be an enabler, nor continue to model that for your kids.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Try to engage from a half a step back. Don't take it personally and get swept up in the moment, but instead use your rationality, not your emotion. When she over reacts, or blame shifts, call her on it immediately. 'What are you doing? What do you think that will accomplish? You're acting like a toddler! You just chose to throw yourself off the bed. Why must you attack me, instead of addressing the actual issue?' Things like that. Stay calm. Stay rational. Don't take what she says personally, and stay focused on the real issue at hand, no matter how much she tries to derail the conversation. Be honest about your feelings, be honest about your wants, be honest about your intent. Don't shout, don't rant, don't get personal. Does that make sense? Like if she is doing something you don't like, you would not accept such treatment from anybody, not just her.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I like what you are saying, SadandAngry. It is encouraging the OP to just be honest. Transparency is a great start.

Thanks for your posts.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

seeking sanity said:


> I think jld is right, however there is very real cost to this approach: You are not allowed to have emotions in the relationship. That's a pretty lonely place to be.
> 
> It's similar in my situation. I basically cannot communicate any feeling that is potential negative towards my wife without repercussions. I personally find it very difficult to sustain an emotional connection when my feeling cannot have a voice. I feel for you. I have no advice on how to change this.


Do you think the above poster's advice could help you, ss? Just being totally honest with your partner? Just being transparent and letting the chips fall where they may?


----------



## texasoutlaw82 (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm sorry you're going through this method of abuse. I, too, was subjected to this type of treatment. 

Placing blame on others relieves the person of having to deal with the consequences and I regard this type of behavior as self sabotaging because it in essence cracks and whittles away even more at the foundation of a person's character. This isn't progressive behavior where one learns to accept responsibility, which ultimately is what an adult should have learned how to do. 

I noticed this behavior with my last partner and no matter how hard I tried placing the proverbial ball in her court, she inevitably found a way to keep pushing it back to me. 

At some point you just have to stop and not allow the behavior to occur anymore. It may piss her off, but it will make YOU feel better because you're not allowing that type of treatment against yourself. 

You became a scapegoat for her lack of responsibility. Is that what you want?


----------



## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Has she always done this or is this something new? It almost reminds me of someone with a mental issue. Either way, doesn't sound healthy, and if she keeps on with this mind set regardless of what you say or do, it might come down to you needing to make a decision on what you will and will not live with.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> When I had my affair, I confessed and took responsibility for my actions...however a few weeks later..I said horrible things to my husband. I told him it was his fault, I wish I had never told him...etc.
> 
> In hindsight...I wonder if I was not spewing words to him that I actually felt about myself. I don't know the proper terminology. I don't know if I was in the fog, or just feeling guilty or what was wrong with me...but I said things to him that he has never recovered from. I so wish I could take the words back.
> 
> ...


Don't you think you were also giving your husband a chance to grow, MJA? 

I like your thought that maybe you were saying things to yourself. That is very interesting. But I think you likely did feel at least some of what spilled out. 

Your husband could have taken what you said many ways and done many different things with it. Why is what he chose to do with it your responsibility?


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

OP your situation is very complex.
But I'm glad that both of you are in counselling.
Here is a link to a website that I think might be able to help you understand what's happening a lot better.

High-Conflict Phases of Abuse, Blame Shifting, Distortion, Rage and Manipulation Diagram.~ Dr. Tara J. Palmatier.


Best Wishes.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CM, are you sure you want to link anything from that woman's website?


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Daft Jerry said:


> I’m 50 yrs old, three kids, and am struggling with a marriage crisis. ...
> 
> On our 22nd wedding anniversary...
> 
> As for my reactions: In similar situations in the past I used to respond with anger and rage that contributed to the downward spirals. After two years of IC (as well as reading TAM posts), I began to get a grip on my actions and reactions, learned to control myself, swallow hurtful words, take a breath, etc. In line with that, in the aftermath of the recent conflicts I told her firmly but calmly to stop talking about divorce, death, dogs, etc. On other occasions I simply told her to please stop, took her in my arms, stroked her face, and told her I loved her. None of this has enabled us to plateau. My calmer reactions in fact seem to enrage her further.


So there is @ a 20 year history of you responding in anger and rage?

Congratulations on engaging IC and growing! I find that very commendable (being married to someone who has persistently refused IC and personal recovery/growth)

Your new way of responding- err- rage and uncontrolled anger is bad- but false phony calm without expressing any feelings of anger or frustration is also bad IMO. My H used to do that and it infuriated me- he would put on this emotionless robot air with me and to me it reeked of phoniness, condescension, and lack of empathy/connection. 



Daft Jerry said:


> Man up? Sure, and I have. Which strongly reconfirms her notion that I'm a dominant, controlling, arrogant SOB.


^^The 20 years of history- it's going to take her quite some time to heal and trust that you are no longer an arrogant SOB. The fact that she is volcanically erupting now MAY be because she finally feels SAFE to do so. 

Think of it this way, for 20 years she pent up and stuffed a lot of anger for how you treated her. NOW she is venting it- and it is volcanic and ugly. But, once she gets it out of her system, I think she will calm way down.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You are so right, Blonde. This false alpha stuff is not good. There has to be real security, which probably only comes from being really honest with oneself and taking responsibility for oneself.

Overall, great post. Thanks.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, MJA, I think you are a very nice person. I just want you to know that.

And I still think that what he does with it is his responsibility, what he wants to do with this opportunity for growth. He does not have to keep coming back to you with it. The conflict is inside of him. You have kept your commitment for thirty years. I am not sure what you could do now that you have not been doing for half your life. 

Jmo, obviously. But I feel like someone needs to stand in your corner and cheer for you. I am not sure anyone could have handled all this better than you have. Please take comfort in this. Though, you seem very strong and not like someone who needs comfort.

Just a thought: Have you tried Active Listening? Just repeating back to him what he says to you? Maybe he just needs validation of his feelings. Do you think that could help?

And sorry for the mini-detour, OP. Back to business.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Marriage Help Program For Couples

^^This program really helped improve communication between me and my H. OP, Based on what you have shared here, I think that it would be even more helpful to you since you seem more capable of introspection and more in touch with your emotions than my H.


----------



## Daft Jerry (Feb 19, 2012)

Dear all, my sincere thanks for your input. Man, am I glad I came here, some of the things you say are more thoughtful than anything I heard in IC. What follows is in response to the posts I saw about an hour ago, I just noticed there were more in the meantime, I’ll respond to those later.

The Rock, uh? Wonderful metaphor, jld, I like it. A long time ago, in a galaxy …, I used to think that traditional gender roles were somewhat problematic, that women should take a more active part in structuring loving relationships , have their voices heard, and exercise agency, and that men should, in turn, have more leeway articulating their emotions and vulnerabilities, and expect those to be honored and respected. Well, life has a way to teach you some lessons.

So I went the other way, stopped articulating what I felt and desired, got my anger under control, and went about meeting her needs, which happen to be rather extensive. Not being too handy by trade or instinct--am more of a bookish kind of guy really--I learned carpentry, electrical, tiling, drywalling, sheet metal, plumbing, etc., and set about rebuilding our house according to her wishes (she had some very good ideas, BTW, and I told her many times). Agreed, none of this involved slaying dragons, dragging raw meat into the cave, and taming frontiers axe in hand, jld, but close enough for my taste, plus I have a pretty demanding real job when I’m not busy wiring things.

All fine and well, I actually enjoyed learning and doing these things myself and saving the money, except a.) the nagging about things done imperfectly was rarely short in coming, and b.) when I wanted something from her, she usually found a plethora of reasons not to do it. This ranged from the sublime to the ridiculous: Last year, I once asked her to put on a nice nightgown (just regular-type “nice,” BTW, not Betty Page stiletto leather boot corset, mablenc, though I wouldn’t at all mind a bit of that from her on occasion), only to be told “That’s really, really sick.” Ugh. And no, I didn’t whine about a.) or b.), instead went about my business and filed away her assorted insensitivities under the main subject heading “General Stupidity.”

So: Rock, yes, a bit smaller and more brittle than what I’d like it to be sometimes, but it’s been building up these last few years. Problem is: It encourages her to throw any manner of things at me, expecting me the next minute to say “love yah, babe, already forgot all about those dogs, death & divorce.” And if I don’t, the avalanche keeps rolling, and soon there’s no indignity she’s not willing to inflict on our marriage, only to claim instantaneously that it’s my fault. That’s a bit like hitting someone over the head with the bat and then complain about the bleeding. This has prompted me to draw the line at blameshifting, which amounts, in my little galaxy and without any particular claim to diagnostic accuracy, to emotional terrorism.

Now, if I try to put together Blonde, SadandAngry, jld, and seekingsanity, the way to deal with this is to detach emotionally, listen to the rants, occasionally mirror them back along the lines of Active Listening, question the need for blame assignment, calmly reject the blameshifting every time it crops up, move on, ride my bike, and bang my head against the wall as needed in the privacy of my own office. Is that about a fair summary? Do correct me if I’m wrong.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

I think you missed transparency. Moving from the old scary raging to *appropriate* sharing of feelings of anger and frustration. Communicating your feelings to your wife rather than headbanging the wall in your office.

Emotional detachment does not mean stuffing or failing to express your feelings. Emotional detachment means success in eliminating your triggers/buttons which are pushed by her behaviors. So, when she starts blaming you let it roll off like water off a duck's back. You recognize it as her issue and you totally avoid getting defensive @ it. You calmly and consistently call her on it (one sentence is enough. develop a sentence and repeat it each time you are subjected to an unacceptable behavior)


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would not say detach emotionally. I would say don't take it personally.

Look at her like she's five. You wouldn't take what a five year old says personally, would you? Sometimes your wife is five. So you use patience and calmness and gentleness.

But she's not always five. After she's spewed some anger, she probably is calmer. That is probably the time to reflect the feeling (active listening). 

After you've done active listening, talk to her about her behavior. How does she feel when she treats you disrespectfully? Is that the kind of person she wants to be?

Be transparent and tell her how you feel. She needs to hear it. This is a partnership, even if it is not exactly equal.

Don't let her get away with blaming you. Reflect the feeling. When she is calm, hold her behavior up to her. Hold her feet to the fire.

Be honest and authentic, as least with yourself. Ask yourself where the holes are in your own security. You cannot be her rock if you are really just a plastic life raft. I don't think you are, but some men here have tried to tell me they are, when I see a yellow piece of plastic in front of me. You know yourself best. Face your faults.

It is not easy, what I am asking you to do. The fact that you are even as open as you are is a credit to you. Be proud. So many wimp out and blame the wife. 

I don't think you are really scared of her at heart. You are just looking for tools for helping her to heal, and to heal yourself.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

And to further clarify, you should not continue forever (banging your head against the wall). Yes, give her the opportunity to adjust. to gain trust in you, but if you go say six months, and there's no change, well the she's clearly telling you she will not change. And you move on.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Be a leader. Embody the change you want. Be consistent. Be honest. Talk. Listen. Think before you act or blurt something out. Encourage her to do the same. Realize you will both make mistakes, will have setbacks, but six months should be sufficient to see if any progress is being made.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SadandAngry said:


> And to further clarify, you should not continue forever (banging your head against the wall). Yes, give her the opportunity to adjust. to gain trust in you, but if you go say six months, and there's no change, well the she's clearly telling you she will not change. And you move on.


You're saying there may have to be consequences? He may have to set boundaries?

That could be motivating for her.


----------



## Daft Jerry (Feb 19, 2012)

Jld and Blonde, thanks for that reality check. What you call “this emotionless robot” that reeks of “phoniness, condescension, and lack of empathy/connection” is probably more or less how my W would describe me, and I think it saddens and infuriates her to no end. 

Of course I do it to protect my dignity, my sanity, and our marriage from her rages, but it’s wrong, wrong, wrong. I’ve tried to curb it, in part by categorically rejecting the notion that she suffers from some kind of personality disorder along the lines of the Tara Palmatier approach, and I refuse to pathologise her. But you’re right, I’m not a very good Stoic (wish I could follow the Marcus Aurelius prescriptions in that dept., but I guess it didn’t produce particularly positive results in his personal life either). 

Jld, I especially liked your sequenced approach of letting her vent and only once she's done to start addressing the conduct, its rationale, and implications for me for the sake of transparency. I haven’t done that, and instead have allowed the garbage to pile up, with the end effect that some of it is now oozing out in MC, and it’s not pretty.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

If she's emotional, she can't think rationally. She has to be calm to hear you.

Forget you ever heard of Tara Palmatier.

Try to look at the "garbage," as something out of the mouth of a child. She doesn't mean it.

Unless, of course, some of it is true. Face the true things. Especially if they are painful. Dig deep to find out why they are painful.

Men can do this. I wish more would. Outstanding job facing things, DJ.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think she's trying to say let him decide his own boundaries, SaA.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Daft Jerry said:


> Jld and Blonde, thanks for that reality check. What you call “this emotionless robot” that reeks of “phoniness, condescension, and lack of empathy/connection” is probably more or less how my W would describe me, and I think it saddens and infuriates her to no end.


I really think there is lots of hope, Jerry. My H went through the raging phase, and the robotic phase, and finally he is able to be balanced. And I learned to be more balanced right along with him.

Another thing he used to do in his robotic phase was withdraw/stonewall when I was angry. Since sex pretty much defines his framework, here is how I framed this to him so he could understand how frustrating that is to me:

To ME, emotional intimacy is as important as sexual intimacy is to him. ANGER is very much related to PASSION. When I am expressing deep emotions, it is like the buildup to an orgasm. When I can finally get them expressed, it is like climax. When I am expressing myself emotionally to him and he leaves the room in the middle, it is like coitus interruptus. 

"How would you feel if we are having sex and you are getting to the pounding phase and I stood up and walked out of the room??? Frustrated? Blue balls? Well, it is massively frustrating to me when you leave me hanging without finishing up an emotional discussion! When we do have an intense discussion and we finish, I feel such intense relief and satisfaction! AND I feel so much more connected and bonded with you"

Nowadays, H understands that for me anger is closely related to passion and he embraces the opportunity for intimacy.


----------



## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Blonde said:


> Think of it this way, for 20 years she pent up and stuffed a lot of anger for how you treated her. NOW she is venting it- and it is volcanic and ugly. But, once she gets it out of her system, I think she will calm way down.



I agree, this is likely what has happened. Her reactions/feelings are based on how you treated her, its likely damaged her core. So therefore its gonna take awhile for her to be able to heal, hopefully with some therapy you both can heal. I do believe sometimes damage can be undone but sometimes it can't, time will tell.


----------



## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

jld said:


> It wouldn't be forever, seekingsanity. And he does not have to do it at all if he is not able to.
> 
> I know I ask a lot of men. But you know, our society used to. They used to be asked to do hard physical labor every day on farms or in factories. They used to be sent to war. That's how boys became men. And they did not fear their women.
> 
> ...


This is really good insight. I guess that counter point is that men also used to be considered the head of the household, were shown more respect by their families and society, and didn't have to be breadwinners and domestic partners. Right now, we have to be strong, despite not a lot of benefit or recognition for it, plus willing care for the kids and do 1/2 the housework.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> Move on to what? after six months??? Dear god. He has a lifetime invested in this relationship. You don't take your ball and go home if you don't see improvement in six months.
> ...


I get what you are putting down. There are hard situations that people find themselves in, that they can eventually get through, and get to the good stuff together. Definitely. And yes, sometimes that would seem to take more strength and perseverance than one thinks one has.

There are also lost causes. No matter how much one partner attempts to effect positive change, the other will not budge. How do you tell the difference? How do you draw the line and decide enough is enough? That's for each person to decide. Six months? A suggestion. Maybe he needs a year. Maybe after a lifetime of investment producing negative results, he only gives it a week (that would be a shame imho, but could be the case). That's for each person to decide.

I said six months because I think that gives enough time to show leadership, to develop his own skills, and to inspire his partner. Enough time to demonstrate he is serious. Enough time to have the deep heart to heart communication. Enough time to see if she will follow his lead. To see if she will move on from the place they're at now. Do I mean give a hard deadline that in six months everything will be perfect, that lifelong habits are magically gone, and they are the paragons of marital bliss? No. I mean there is clear hope that things are on the mend. Renewed trust. Communication. Shared values and goals. Effort to overcome obstacles. Partnership. Mutual value and support.

I guess the upshot is it's ok to have a limit, to be able to let go at some point. We don't have to endure at all costs. Sometimes the cost is too high, and that's ok. 

Move on to what you ask? It seems to me daft has decided he needs to be a better partner. That he realized the dysfunction and the desperation. That he can act to improve things. That he can change. Ideally his wife will want the same, and make her own efforts to improve things. Maybe she will. Maybe she won't. If she chooses not to. should daft be condemned to suffer indefinitely? Or can he try to build a better life for himself? Alone, together, what ever, who knows exactly what? I know I reserve the right to cut toxic people out of my life. I also reserve the right to forgive too.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

DJ, it seems that both of you are bringing issues to the table. You say you don't want to pathologize her, which is noble but probably keeping you in a difficult situation when you *could* be finding solutions. 

The ways you have adapted are quite possibly making the situation worse. What you described is just a small glimpse, so I can't definitively say that she sounds like she has borderline personality disorder, but I am definitely leaning in that direction. 

There are a couple of ways that borderline personality plays out. Commonly, a person with BPD has a strong fear of being alone, yet also a strong fear of connecting deeply with another person. BPDers shift from one extreme to another and back again at lightning speed. Their all-or-nothing thinking can have you wondering if they love you or hate you, because they go back and forth to such extremes. Some of them self-harm, and suicide rates are quite high among BPDers compared to non-BPD populations. Many people perceive them to be very manipulative, which isn't their intention, though those who love a BPDer DO tend to jump through hoops along the way.

In your OP, you said that she made a hurtful remark, which you didn't address because you didn't want to ruin your celebration. Yet in the weeks that followed, you allowed your hurt to justify being less than loving toward you. In this regard, you've learned to use blame and punishment toward her - the very things you resent are the things you are now doing, too. I think this is incredibly harmful for relationships. Blame and resentment have NEVER improved a relationship in my experience! 

You cannot change her. You can change what YOU do, however, and if you change you, the relationship will change. I can't promise that the changes will be improvements. They might be, or they might reveal the end of the relationship, who knows.... 

I wrote an article on BPD that provides the clinical criteria for a diagnosis, helps a non-BPD person understand what's happening, and offers tips for coping with a loved one's BPD behaviors. I believe you'll find practical suggestions and it might help you understand why your calm reassurances sometimes provoke her more. You can find the article at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships if you'd like to check it out.


----------

